# Itachi vs. Mei & Onoki



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2013)

Three scenarios:


_Base Itachi vs. Mei_

*Location: *Open Field (with a forest nearby)
*Distance:* 35m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* Mangekyou


_Sick Itachi vs. Onoki_

*Location: *Sannin Battlefield
*Distance:* 35m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* None


_Edo Itachi vs. Both_

*Location: *War Battlefield
*Distance:* 25m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* Koto


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2013)

1- Without MS Mei wins IMO. With MS, she can win if she used her mist. 
2- Onoki wins.
3- They still win.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 26, 2013)

Itachi demolishes either of them individually; even without the Mangekyou Sharingan, he can still use his speed to get in position and catch Mei in a Genjutsu. He might not need MS to beat Oonoki, either; if it's one-on-one, the Tsuchikage will be vulnerable to illusions- the same as Mei.

Stamina would normally be Itachi's limiter in a fight against the both of them, but Itachi has no such limit as an Edo Tensei; he trainwrecks them both with Amaterasu spam.


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## DCI Kurusu (Oct 26, 2013)

Itachi solos 

Itachi and Mei ditch the fight to have passionate sex all night long


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

Mei beats Base Itachi. Mei knows the threat of Sharingan and will use Demonic Mist to block LOS as she did against Madara. Once the Mist is up Itachi has two choices; fall-back out of the mist and fight at long-range or try and fight in the mist. If he falls back to long range Mei's Suitons easily overwhelm Itachi's Katons and straight up overwhelms him. If Itachi tries to fight in CQC Mei has the advantage in the mist and can one-shot him with a stealth Yoton or pulling out Acid. Ether way Itachi's chances of victory here are pretty slim.

Onoki beats Sick Itachi, far more often than not. The dude fought 5 Madara clones w/ Susano'o and did not get Genjutsu'd and was winning. Flight protects Onoki from all of Itachi's Jutsu except Magatama. Magatama can be defended against with Golems, straight up evading it with high speed flight, Iwa-bushin, or Jinton. From there Onoki takes Itachi down with his large Jinton beams or simply out-lasts him until sickness takes hold. At worst if Yata Mirro can block Jinton, Onoki can use his Iwa-Bushin and high speed flight to get off weight control on Susano'o (like he did against Madara) and bind Itachi's Susano'o allow him to blast it with Jinton from behind.

Edo Itachi vs Onoki would be a good fight by itself, I still consider Onoki the favorite to win that fight, but it could go ether way. You give Onoki Mei who can block Itachi's LOS with demonic mist and distract Itachi with massive Water Dragons, and Onoki wins for sure.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2013)

Hmm? Onoki the favorite over Edo Itachi? 

Oh Turrin.


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## Brooks (Oct 26, 2013)

Mei beats Base Itachi

I can see  Ōnoki winning more times than not..

The King takes them to school


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## Garcher (Oct 26, 2013)

Itachi stomps ... a kage level opponent is nothing to him.

remember when he solod Orochimaru with 13 years  one paneled


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hmm? Onoki the favorite over Edo Itachi?
> 
> Oh Turrin.


It should be oh Kishi, not oh Turrin. Kishi is the one who had Onoki (after everything else he did in that battle) defeat 5 Madara clones that were able to wield EMS-legged Susano'o's who could cast other Jutsu on top of that, not Turrin. If you think Edo Itachi is worth that much more than those 5 Madara clones that a character who defeated those clones would stand no chance against Edo Itachi, than that is simply you overrating Itachi. 

Onoki lifting turtle island, stopping a meteor (w/ a bit of help from Gaara), and countering Flower Tree World, are all beyond the scope of anything Edo Itachi had to deal with. 

And from a simply feat based stand-point it makes sense that Itachi would struggle against Onoki. Itachi said his strongest long-range Jutsu was Magatama. So if Onoki takes flight Itachi's best offense is Magatama, which isn't bad, but Onoki certainly has the tools necessary to deal with Magatama, which hasn't been portrayed as some unstoppable technique. Onoki also fought 5 Madara clones and managed to avoid getting Genjutsu GG'd and weight alter all 5 Susano'o to the point of rendering them immobile.  We've also seen his Jinton blow through Susano'o and him bind an Edo Tensei with turning them to stone and weight altering them. All of this should show Onoki has the necessary tools to handle himself quite well against Edo Itachi. 

This is w/o even getting into Onoki's feat of taking down 25 Madara clones when restored by Tsunade's Shosen and the implications of that in regards to how Onoki stacks up against Edo Itachi.

Also i'm not even saying the dude wins 10/10 times, just that I favor his odds slightly more. Nor have I said that someone who thinks Edo Itachi has better odds is wrong, just that my opinion differs a bit in that regard. To me this is a completely reasonable stand-point to hold. Much more so than someone who laughs at the idea of Onoki fighting a good match against Edo Itachi, or thinks Edo Itachi can defeat both Onoki & Mei, who counter his abilities so completely between their combined Jutsu sets and at this point possess a great deal of knowledge about Uchiha, Sharingan, & MS, while Itachi's degree of knowledge on Mei & Onoki Jutsu, is unknown.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 26, 2013)

Itachi will probably genjutsu them in both 1on1 scenarios. Itachi has too much trickery, feinting, and intellectual feats to suggest he wouldn't catch them throughout an entire altercation. Him having numerous ways in which to catch targets also doesn't make it likely they would avoid it.



> Base Itachi vs. Mei
> 
> Location: Open Field (with a forest nearby)
> Distance: 35m
> ...


Itachi will be going for genjutsu. 

Itachi's IC tendencies are

Try eye contact[1](Team Kakashi vs Itachi).
If eye contact fails, try finger genjutsu[2] (Team Kakashi vs Itachi).
If opponent doesn't look at eyes or fingers[3], try crow genjutsu[4] (Post-wind Naruto vs Itachi).
Mei already knows about sharingan genjutsu given manga knowledge. Since she has a viable counter she may just skip trying to avoid eye contact and use her hidden mist technique and other offensive ninjutsu. If she does block line of sight with the hidden mist Itachi will probably substitute himself in the mean time with a clone as it is an go-to move of his.

Whether Mei's suiton is able to catch the clone or the clone is able to jump out of the mist and assault her, once the clone is destroyed it should provide a good, post-feinted opportunity for Itachi to genjutsu/attack her.



> Sick Itachi vs. Onoki
> 
> Location: Sannin Battlefield
> Distance: 35m
> ...


With limited speed feats it's dubious Onoki's jinton will hit someone as fast as Itachi if he fires it from an extremely far away (40m+ distance). If Itachi can't make eye contact with Onoki, either because Onoki is too far away or because he avoids eye contact, he will IC send crows with sharingan that will do his genjutsu work for him.

The crows will be upon him fast, and Onoki has no knowledge of the threat crows pose to him, nor does he know they can sharingan genjutsu him in Itachi's stead. There's no reasonable conclusion Onoki won't be genjutsu'd by them.


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## Kanki (Oct 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi *demolishes* either of them individually; even without the Mangekyou Sharingan, .



Come on....this statement is ridiculous.


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## pato454 (Oct 26, 2013)

itachi wins all 3 scenarios, the first via genjutsu, the second via tsukuyomi or amaterasu, jinton can be a problem but i think yata can block it

and the third, well susanoo and MS spam will do the work


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi demolishes either of them individually; even without the Mangekyou Sharingan.



Oh goodness this statement is completely laughable no matter how you want to slice it. Both held their own against 5 Madara Susano clones for some time. Oonoki was helping other people out for goodness sake. Yet Base Itachi just demolishes them. Seriously, stop posting in Itachi threads. It stopped being funny back in 2011. Hell for some, longer than that.



Now then on to business. Mei beats Base Itachi of course. Mei's suitons would murder Itachi's katons and her mist would render sharingan genjutsu useless. This leaves his bunshins and taijutsu to save the day and her Acid Mist, suitons, and Yonton make that useless. Good luck getting close to her without any high powered jutsu or gated level speed. Turrin brought up a good point here. Either try to fight in the mist or fall back. Mist fighting is suicide against the Mizukage but so is trying to beat her at her own game: long range combat. Mei wins.

Oonoki should beat sick Itachi. Oonoki can stay out of range of genjutsu, avoid eye contact, and/or use bunshins. He is an excellent Uchiha counter. Amaterasu can get messed over with bunshin feints. Bunshin counters bunshin here and jinton ribs through Susano. Attacking underground is also a possibility. Oonoki can force Itachi to use up so much stamina so quickly while he barely breaks a sweat. He wins this with moderate difficulty.

Putting up a quick mist and dotons can help for defense and force Edo Itachi to stay back. Avoids threat of genjutsu and amaterasu as well. Susano will be needed quickly after some Yonton+Jinton combination attacks. However, can Itachi even block such a ridiculous offense? Yata's mirror might be able to. But Oonoki might attack from underneath the ground. A combination of mist and dotons and using clones to attack as well as long range Jinton and Yonton could get through Susano or at least provide the distraction needed for Oonoki to pop up underneath it to kill Itachi.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosen, Itachi can still genjutsu either of them from far away with crows that possess sharingan [1] [2].

All he has to do is survive long enough to send the crows. It's dubious they are going to accurately hit someone as fast as Itachi w/ sharingan from wide expanses of 30-40m+ long range away before he sends crows there way.

I'm referring to the 1on1 battles btw.


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## ueharakk (Oct 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It should be oh Kishi, not oh Turrin. Kishi is the one who had Onoki (after everything else he did in that battle) defeat 5 Madara clones that were able to wield EMS-legged Susano'o's who could cast other Jutsu on top of that, not Turrin. If you think Edo Itachi is worth that much more than those 5 Madara clones that a character who defeated those clones would stand no chance against Edo Itachi, than that is simply you overrating Itachi.


Because 1 SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage or the hachibi.  



Turrin said:


> Onoki lifting turtle island, stopping a meteor (w/ a bit of help from Gaara), and countering Flower Tree World, are all beyond the scope of anything Edo Itachi had to deal with.


techniques of incredible scale =/= power in relation to another character.  Bee also blows up/levels multiple mountains, and rapidfires mountain busters, and destroys a portion of a forest incomparably larger than what oonoki destroyed, yet why isn't he above itachi who's never done anything like that?  Hell, by that logic deidara is above itachi.  



Turrin said:


> And from a simply feat based stand-point it makes sense that Itachi would struggle against Onoki. Itachi said his strongest long-range Jutsu was Magatama. So if Onoki takes flight Itachi's best offense is Magatama, which isn't bad, but Onoki certainly has the tools necessary to deal with Magatama, which hasn't been portrayed as some unstoppable technique. Onoki also fought 5 Madara clones and managed to avoid getting Genjutsu GG'd and weight alter all 5 Susano'o to the point of rendering them immobile.  We've also seen his Jinton blow through Susano'o and him bind an Edo Tensei with turning them to stone and weight altering them. All of this should show Onoki has the necessary tools to handle himself quite well against Edo Itachi.


I'm guessing you just forgot that itachi has a jutsu that's much harder to dodge than magatama.  You also don't know the stipulations that allowed oonoki to weight alter the clones, it could have been a blunder on madara's part, or a combination of his own jutsu and someone elses used as a distraction.



Turrin said:


> This is w/o even getting into Onoki's feat of taking down 25 Madara clones when restored by Tsunade's Shosen and the implications of that in regards to how Onoki stacks up against Edo Itachi.


that's not his feat, that's his own jutsu super powered by tsunade's medical technique.


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## Enki (Oct 26, 2013)

Edo Itachi wins in scenario 3. Scenario 2 can go either way imo.


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## Kai (Oct 26, 2013)

Itachi vs. Onoki would be a close fight in of itself - to think base Itachi has any shot at beating the most powerful Kage alive is nothing but a joke considering the old man has fought Madara twice in his lifetime and wiped out all of his clones in one attack.

Amaterasu is the only jutsu fast enough to end Onoki before he erases Itachi and any of his defensive maneuvers. Against sick Itachi, I'd lean more towards Onoki; Itachi's sickness is a hell of a taxing handicap and should bring him at least a half a tier down due to dulled movements, worsening fatigue, and much shorter jutsu duration.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 26, 2013)

> Amaterasu is the only jutsu fast enough to end Onoki before he erases Itachi and any of his defensive maneuvers. Against sick Itachi, I'd lean more towards Onoki. Itachi's sickness is a hell of a taxing handicap and should bring him at least a half a tier down due to dulled movements, worsening fatigue, and much shorter jutsu duration.


How would Itachi's stamina stop him from using either Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi on Onoki? He isn't exactly a trickster who would waste one of Itachi's MS jutsu, and he only needs to land one cleanly to defeat Onoki. Itachi can still use either mangekyou jutsu with crows mind you, so flying out of range isn't a solution, much to Onoki's disadvantage since he may _think_ it is a solution.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Rosen, Itachi can still genjutsu either of them from far away with crows that possess sharingan [1] [2].
> 
> All he has to do is survive long enough to send the crows. It's dubious they are going to accurately hit someone as fast as Itachi w/ sharingan from wide expanses of 30-40m+ long range away before he sends crows there way.
> 
> I'm referring to the 1on1 battles btw.



I had assumed that single crow was the Koto crow he gave Naruto. Considering Naruto had it and it is destroyed now, it is not part of his arsenal. So he can't do that any longer. Let's pretend he still can use a singe crow to cast a genjutsu though because I could be mistaken. The crow had to be right next to Naruto's face and Naruto had to charge right into a flock of them. So a single crow can cast genjutsu from point blank range after flying right into someone's face and they make eye contact. Ok then let's discuss.

In the mist, a crow can't see and its flapping makes a lot of noise. So while he is welcome to send his genjutsu crow, Mei would just murder it with some lava or acid mist. Hell or throw a kunai at it while the crow can't see her. Oonoki on the other hand has many things he can do. The crows have to fly and reach him. If he wants to be cruel, a little jinton can kill it before it flies in his face. Oonoki may let the crow get close to see what happens and then he gets trapped in a genjutsu. But actually it was clone he used to test what the crow would do. 

A crow genjutsu doesn't help Itachi's odds.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 26, 2013)

> I had assumed that single crow was the Koto crow he gave Naruto. Considering Naruto had it and it is destroyed now, it is not part of his arsenal. So he can't do that any longer.


 Itachi has more than one crow with sharingan 



> In the mist, a crow can't see and its flapping makes a lot of noise. So while he is welcome to send his genjutsu crow, Mei would just murder it with some lava or acid mist. Hell or throw a kunai at it while the crow can't see her. Oonoki on the other hand has many things he can do. The crows have to fly and reach him. If he wants to be cruel, a little jinton can kill it before it flies in his face. Oonoki may let the crow get close to see what happens and then he gets trapped in a genjutsu. But actually it was clone he used to test what the crow would do.


Itachi would most likely send it when he had visual on the target, ie outside the fog Rosen. There's no reason Mei would kill it either.

Why would Onoki kill a harmless crow he has no knowledge on lol? Onoki has never used a clone feint, ever AFAIK. He's a very straightforward fighter. If anyone is feinting here its Itachi, the person who feints in virtually all of his battles.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi vs. Onoki would be a close fight in of itself



I don't really see how. Itachi is superior to him in literally every area, no? Not that Ōnoki's a slouch, but Itachi's simply smarter, faster, and has a much stronger and more versatile arsenal of jutsu.​


Kai said:


> to think base Itachi has any shot at beating the most powerful Kage alive is nothing but a joke



The author has had base Itachi easily defeat a handful of impressive S-rank characters. I don't think it's much of a joke for Itachi to outperform Ōnoki with skill rather than overpower him with dōjutsu.​


Kai said:


> considering the old man has fought Madara twice in his lifetime



The first time it was 2 vs 1 and both Tsuchikage were crushed by Madara when he was holding back. I don't think that makes Ōnoki immune to Itachi's unique style and talents..​


Kai said:


> and wiped out all of his clones in one attack.



If you genuinely prescribe the giant Jinton as something Ōnoki can casually bust out without Tsunade, then you got me haha. That still, however, might not be IC prior to being genjutsu'd.​


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Because 1 SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage or the hachibi.


This is a downright ridiculous comparison. A clone has to stand-still to gather natural energy for SM. Cannonically Sandaime Raikage would have beaten down the Naruto-clone before this is possible, if not for Dodai. Clones can't just magically appear in SM w/o prior prep.  Additionally even after achieving SM, the clone canonically needed additional help gaining intel on Sandaime to win. Sure the knowledge has now become Naruto's, but the knowledge has also become Sandaime's. So if the match was played out again Sandaime would not make the mistake of charging forward with his strongest hell-bringer, and thus once again the clone would loose to Sandaime. (though one can even ask if Sandaime would have made the mistake in the first place, as Kabuto was in control not Sandaime).

The scenario that allowed the clone to prevail was completely contrived by the help it received throughout the battle. Not to mention this is a silly point to make because Madara's clones are inherently different than Naruto's. As Mokubushin they do not disperse when hit, which is the main weakness of clones, besides the division of chakra.



> techniques of incredible scale =/= power in relation to another character. Bee also blows up/levels multiple mountains, and rapidfires mountain busters, and destroys a portion of a forest incomparably larger than what oonoki destroyed, yet why isn't he above itachi who's never done anything like that? Hell, by that logic deidara is above itachi.


It seems to me that you have completely failed to understand my point. I was never commenting on Onoki being able to use massive scale techniques. I was commenting on Onoki's being able to counter attacks, which the author has clearly established as being as more potent than anything Itachi has ever produced or gone up against.

Madara's combo of Flower Tree World + Susano'o Ambush + Massive Katon defeated 4 Gokage, however Onoki countered this combo allowing the Gokage to survive. When has Itachi ever gone up against an attack of that level and countered it? When has Itachi ever produced an attack of that level?

The same applies to the other feats I listed for Onoki.



> I'm guessing you just forgot that itachi has a jutsu that's much harder to dodge than magatama.


Itachi specifically stated Magatama was his best long-range Jutsu



> You also don't know the stipulations that allowed oonoki to weight alter the clones, it could have been a blunder on madara's part, or a combination of his own jutsu and someone elses used as a distraction.


Your really reaching here for an excuse, for something very obvious. Madara specifically credits Onoki with stopping his clones and does not say it was due to a blunder on his part, but rather praises Onoki for his superior exp allowing him to accomplish this:

_madara: damn you ohnoki...\\
madara: you’re finally starting to show how experienced in battle you are.\\
madara: you were able to stop susano-o with the added weight rock technique... and you were then able to help the raikage...\\_



> that's not his feat, that's his own jutsu super powered by tsunade's medical technique.


Medical techniques do not super-power, they restore. Shosen restored Onoki's stamina to a certain degree, sure, but that still means at the very least at 100% Onoki could pull out the same Jinton.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi has more than one crow with sharingan
> 
> 
> Itachi would most likely send it when he had visual on the target, ie outside the fog Rosen. There's no reason Mei would kill it either.
> ...



Fair enough you win that point and taught me something. I did say I might be mistaken though, and you proved that to be the case.

He may have visual initially, but then loses it when the mist comes out. These people are Kages. They aren't so stupid to see a random crow flying their way from Uchiha Itachi and assume that it has no meaning. Killing it is the best bet.

Same as above. Nothing is harmless if it comes from Uchiha Itachi. He used clones to go search for invisible Muu to prevent harm from himself. A feint. Itachi is welcome to. He just doesn't have the chakra to spare here since Susano will be needed to keep himself alive.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Mei beats Base Itachi. Mei knows the threat of Sharingan and will use Demonic Mist to block LOS as she did against Madara. Once the Mist is up Itachi has two choices; fall-back out of the mist and fight at long-range or try and fight in the mist. If he falls back to long range Mei's Suitons easily overwhelm Itachi's Katons and straight up overwhelms him. If Itachi tries to fight in CQC Mei has the advantage in the mist and can one-shot him with a stealth Yoton or pulling out Acid. Ether way Itachi's chances of victory here are pretty slim.



The problem is that if Itachi backs up to long range, neither he nor Mei will be able to hit each other; that leaves too much distance for their Jutsu to travel and more than enough time to just step out of the way. What Itachi CAN do is go into the mist on purpose and lure Mei to attack an exploding clone, or use summoned crows to locate her.

Mei CAN win with acid mist, but Itachi is still generally superior to her in most regards.



> Onoki beats Sick Itachi, far more often than not. The dude fought 5 Madara clones w/ Susano'o and did not get Genjutsu'd and was winning.



Why are you using the 5 Madara clones to guage Itachi's performance here?



> Flight protects Onoki from all of Itachi's Jutsu except Magatama. Magatama can be defended against with Golems, straight up evading it with high speed flight, Iwa-bushin, or Jinton.



Sage Kabuto could not simply evade the Magatama when multiple beads were used, and if Itachi's are anywhere near as strong as Madara's, a stone golem by itself won't stop them.



> From there Onoki takes Itachi down with his large Jinton beams or simply out-lasts him until sickness takes hold.



If Oonoki is close enough to hit Itachi with Jinton, Itachi is close enough to hit Oonoki with Amaterasu.



> At worst if Yata Mirro can block Jinton, Onoki can use his Iwa-Bushin and high speed flight to get off weight control on Susano'o (like he did against Madara) and bind Itachi's Susano'o allow him to blast it with Jinton from behind.



Oonoki would not get anywhere near Susano'o without getting swatted out of the air. Even if the number of clones allows him to slip past Susano'o's guard, Itachi can hit him with throwing weapons from inside Susano'o.



> Edo Itachi vs Onoki would be a good fight by itself, I still consider Onoki the favorite to win that fight, but it could go ether way.



...How? Itachi has infinite chakra; he can just Amaterasu-spam Oonoki to death. Oonoki doesn't even have a way to neutralize him without weight manipulation, which requires physical contact, which an infinite Susano'o prevents. Edo Itachi stomps.



> You give Onoki Mei who can block Itachi's LOS with demonic mist and distract Itachi with massive Water Dragons, and Onoki wins for sure.



Or Itachi peppers them both with Magatama and then sweeps with Amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> It should be oh Kishi, not oh Turrin. Kishi is the one who had Onoki (after everything else he did in that battle) defeat 5 Madara clones that were able to wield EMS-legged Susano'o's who could cast other Jutsu on top of that, not Turrin. If you think Edo Itachi is worth that much more than those 5 Madara clones that a character who defeated those clones would stand no chance against Edo Itachi, than that is simply you overrating Itachi.



...Or it is simply recognizing that those 5 clones couldn't beat ANY of the Kage except for Mei, and that includes Tsunade and a no-desert Gaara.



> Onoki lifting turtle island, stopping a meteor (w/ a bit of help from Gaara), and countering Flower Tree World, are all beyond the scope of anything Edo Itachi had to deal with.



That's because Oonoki's Jutsu are appropriate for those specific circumstances; just like Itachi could deal with Kirin or seal Orochimaru, while Oonoki would be unable to do either of those things.



> And from a simply feat based stand-point it makes sense that Itachi would struggle against Onoki. Itachi said his strongest long-range Jutsu was Magatama. So if Onoki takes flight Itachi's best offense is Magatama, which isn't bad, but Onoki certainly has the tools necessary to deal with Magatama, which hasn't been portrayed as some unstoppable technique.



Again, you are forgetting that the more distance Oonoki creates, the more time he gives a Sharingan user to react to and evade his attacks. Oonoki will never hit Itachi from long range, and that isn't Oonoki's preferred fighting style anyway.



> Onoki also fought 5 Madara clones and managed to avoid getting Genjutsu GG'd and weight alter all 5 Susano'o to the point of rendering them immobile.



That says more about the clones than it does about Itachi, because Oonoki wasn't even able to do that to Deidara.



> We've also seen his Jinton blow through Susano'o and him bind an Edo Tensei with turning them to stone and weight altering them. All of this should show Onoki has the necessary tools to handle himself quite well against Edo Itachi.



If he has Tsunade to supercharge his Jinton or if Itachi's chakra is split to a fraction of its normal capacity...yeah. But neither is the case here.



> This is w/o even getting into Onoki's feat of taking down 25 Madara clones when restored by Tsunade's Shosen and the implications of that in regards to how Onoki stacks up against Edo Itachi.



There is no implication, because that is a feat he performed with Tsunade's help and the strength of the Madara clones relative to Itachi is already demonstrably at a disadvantage.



> Also i'm not even saying the dude wins 10/10 times, just that I favor his odds slightly more. Nor have I said that someone who thinks Edo Itachi has better odds is wrong, just that my opinion differs a bit in that regard. To me this is a completely reasonable stand-point to hold. Much more so than someone who laughs at the idea of Onoki fighting a good match against Edo Itachi, or thinks Edo Itachi can defeat both Onoki & Mei, who counter his abilities so completely between their combined Jutsu sets and at this point possess a great deal of knowledge about Uchiha, Sharingan, & MS, while Itachi's degree of knowledge on Mei & Onoki Jutsu, is unknown.



Oonoki and Mei are both Kage, so the idea that Itachi wouldn't have some basic knowledge on their abilities is very unlikely.

And Oonoki would never be a good match against an Edo Tensei shinobi of the same level or higher because he lacks the infinite stamina and immortality that are basic qualities of the Jutsu. Itachi would wreck his shit even if he was alive, but infinite chakra gives him carte blanche to spam moves that are better than Oonoki's all day long until Oonoki is beaten into submission and overwhelmed.



Kakashi Is God said:


> Come on....this statement is ridiculous.



What's ridiculous about it?



Rosencrantz said:


> Oh goodness this statement is completely laughable no matter how you want to slice it. Both held their own against 5 Madara Susano clones for some time. Oonoki was helping other people out for goodness sake. Yet Base Itachi just demolishes them.



Yeah, pretty much. If they try to fight him alone, they risk getting caught in his Genjutsu. You can't really use the Madara clones as an example because 1) there is nothing implicitly restricting Itachi to their level of performance and 2) it was a team battle, wherein the Kage were all available to lend each other support as-needed (see: Gaara rescuing Mei).



> Seriously, stop posting in Itachi threads.



No.



> It stopped being funny back in 2011. Hell for some, longer than that.



I don't care.



> Now then on to business. Mei beats Base Itachi of course. Mei's suitons would murder Itachi's katons and her mist would render sharingan genjutsu useless. This leaves his bunshins and taijutsu to save the day and her Acid Mist, suitons, and Yonton make that useless. Good luck getting close to her without any high powered jutsu or gated level speed. Turrin brought up a good point here. Either try to fight in the mist or fall back. Mist fighting is suicide against the Mizukage but so is trying to beat her at her own game: long range combat. Mei wins.



Mei is not a long-range type; if anything, she probably operates best at close-range, where the scale and lethality of her Ninjutsu give her the highest rate of success for inflicting damage.



> Oonoki should beat sick Itachi. Oonoki can stay out of range of genjutsu, avoid eye contact, and/or use bunshins. He is an excellent Uchiha counter.



What? No he isn't. The second he makes eye-contact, he is toast- and don't act like avoiding eye-contact is just something that comes naturally without any consequences. It's a significant handicap that eliminates Oonoki's chances of anticipating Amaterasu, which is a much greater threat than any Genjutsu. There is nothing in Oonoki's arsenal that makes him more suited to fight an Uchiha than any other clone user.



> Amaterasu can get messed over with bunshin feints. Bunshin counters bunshin here and jinton ribs through Susano. Attacking underground is also a possibility.



Clones are not going to stop Amaterasu when Itachi can just turn his head and cover them all. Attacking underground won't be effective, either; his Shouten noticed when Kakashi tried it.



> Oonoki can force Itachi to use up so much stamina so quickly while he barely breaks a sweat. He wins this with moderate difficulty.



Only if Itachi just stands there and allows Oonoki to attack him with impunity, which seems to be what you think is going to happen, instead of Itachi blasting him out of the sky with Amaterasu the first chance he gets.



> Putting up a quick mist and dotons can help for defense and force Edo Itachi to stay back. Avoids threat of genjutsu and amaterasu as well. Susano will be needed quickly after some Yonton+Jinton combination attacks. However, can Itachi even block such a ridiculous offense? Yata's mirror might be able to. But Oonoki might attack from underneath the ground. A combination of mist and dotons and using clones to attack as well as long range Jinton and Yonton could get through Susano or at least provide the distraction needed for Oonoki to pop up underneath it to kill Itachi.



Itachi can dodge attacks from underground with the speeds Oonoki is capable of reaching (see: Shouten Itachi vs. Kakashi), and Oonoki has no way to get inside Susano'o without Jinton, which creates a build-up of chakra that Itachi will notice with his Sharingan.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't really see how. Itachi is superior to him in literally every area, no? Not that Ōnoki's a slouch, but Itachi's simply smarter, faster, and has a much stronger and more versatile arsenal of jutsu.​
> The author has had base Itachi easily defeat a handful of impressive S-rank characters. I don't think it's much of a joke for Itachi to outperform Ōnoki with skill rather than overpower him with dōjutsu.​



It is pretty easy to see. Amaterasu gets the bunshin feint. Tsukiyomi and genjutsu are countered through avoiding eye contact, bunshin feints, and/or staying out of range (so just 5-10 meters or more). Itachi being smarter and faster is conjecture as well as having a stronger/more versatile arsenal of jutsu. Oonoki could definitely be argued the other way. But that's meaningless. Kakashi's jutsu arsenal was stronger and more versatile than Naruto's and he was also smarter and faster but that didn't mean he still wasn't Base Naruto's equal 300 chapters ago. The same could be said for Hidan against Asuma. Asuma being smarter, faster, having more powerful/versatile jutsu, yet he still lost. Oonoki against Fanfic Itachi is not one sided either way.

He has beaten a 10 year old Deidara in base without knowledge. Deidara at 18 when already dead was scared shitless of serious Oonoki.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 26, 2013)

So many "bunshin-feints" in here. Iwa Bunshins are pretty awesome, I guess. Fooling Sharingan and all.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> It is pretty easy to see. Amaterasu gets the bunshin feint.



Since when do clone feints provide a viable counter for Amaterasu? When have we ever seen this work, or been given a reason to believe that it would?



> Tsukiyomi and genjutsu are countered through avoiding eye contact, bunshin feints, and/or staying out of range (so just 5-10 meters or more).



Neither of the Kage can hit Itachi if they "stay out of range," which generally isn't their preferred approach anyway. Clone feints divide the chakra and render Oonoki unable to use Jinton, while avoiding eye-contact is only successful so long as Itachi doesn't slip in close, take them by the throat, and force it.



> Itachi being smarter and faster is conjecture as well as having a stronger/more versatile arsenal of jutsu.



Versatility is largely circumstantial, but it's not really conjecture to say that the guy with max-tier speed and intelligence is faster and/or smarter than these two. It's impossible to confirm with stats, but we know Oonoki's flight speed is equivalent to Deidara's, and Deidara's flight speed isn't enough to avoid Sasuke's attacks- in turn, Sasuke is slower than Itachi. Mei doesn't even really have ANYTHING going for her, when it comes to speed; in all likelihood, she sits somewhere around Tsunade's level. Oonoki's probably at the 4-4.5 mark. Everything we know about these characters points to Itachi being faster.

Intelligence... Yeah, I'll take the guy who's praised for his insight and planning over either of these Kage, who have never been placed anywhere near the same intellectual pedestal.



> Oonoki could definitely be argued the other way. But that's meaningless. Kakashi's jutsu arsenal was stronger and more versatile than Naruto's and he was also smarter and faster but that didn't mean he still wasn't Base Naruto's equal 300 chapters ago. The same could be said for Hidan against Asuma. Asuma being smarter, faster, having more powerful/versatile jutsu, yet he still lost. Oonoki against Fanfic Itachi is not one sided either way.



Oonoki gets one-shotted by fan fic Itachi's bitch summon, Galactus.

Regular Itachi defeats Oonoki with low to moderate difficulty after a few exchanges of Jutsu.



> He has beaten a 10 year old Deidara in base without knowledge. Deidara at 18 when already dead was scared shitless of serious Oonoki.



Deidara left his village after Itachi beat him, so that fear of Oonoki ingrained in his mind is from a time when he was even younger.

Mind you, that fear didn't stop him from trying to kill Oonoki.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> T
> Mei is not a long-range type; if anything, she probably operates best at close-range, where the scale and lethality of her Ninjutsu have the highest rate of success for inflicting damage.
> 
> 
> ...



You can say that for any long range fighter. Mei is a long range combatant. If the acid mist, lava, and suitons don't convince you, then nothing will. The mist is used and blinds him making genjutsu useless and Itachi one big target.

It does to Oonoki who has been able to do it just fine and instantly instructed the alliance to do so. Also been fighting Uchihas for years. He can make eye contact if he is far enough out of range. He doesn't need to anticipate Amaterasu anyway. He can have bunshins on the field flying around as a precaution against it forcing Itachi to choose a target. Actually yes. He flies which means he can permanently stay out of genjutsu range unless the Uchiha in question is Sasuke Uchiha who can fly on a bird. This makes him a great Uchiha counter. He has bunshins which makes amaterasu and other sharingan genjutsu less effective. This makes him a great Uchiha counter. He has experience fighting Uchihas and knows to avoid eye contact. This makes him a great Uchiha counter. He also has a wealth of long range jutsu. How many shinobi do you know that can fly, have experience fighting Uchiha for many years to know to avoid eye contact, can use multiple bunshins, and attacks with vicious long range jutsu? These things make him a good Uchiha counter.

They will be spread out for one. Above, below, behind. Hell he may not be able to see some being hidden by giant dotons. And secondly, he can't do that. With unlimited chakra as an Edo, he had to use individual amaterasu attacks to hit separate targets the Ceruberus and Nagato. Itachi has to use separate amaterasus for separate targets. The unlimited chakra version of himself taught me as much.

Was Itachi dying from Susano being up while coughing up blood staving off Jinton and Yonton attacks when Kakashi popped up from underground? Because that's what he will be facing here.

And then it is a bunshin and now Itachi hits the floor coughing up blood making him open to Mei's yonton from behind, killing him.

Go to dictionary.com and look up the words "distraction," "sickness," and "exhaustion." They apply here to Uchiha Itachi.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 26, 2013)

> He may have visual initially, but then loses it when the mist comes out. These people are Kages. They aren't so stupid to see a random crow flying their way from Uchiha Itachi and assume that it has no meaning. Killing it is the best bet.


 They're more likely to observe IC, which by then it will be to late. 
In Onoki's case, Itachi can use _Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu_ on the crow's sharingan, and just make it outright kill Onoki instead of genjutsu him. Since Amaterasu activates faster than Jinton that would solve that issue.



> Same as above. Nothing is harmless if it comes from Uchiha Itachi. He used clones to go search for invisible Muu to prevent harm from himself. A feint. Itachi is welcome to. He just doesn't have the chakra to spare here since Susano will be needed to keep himself alive.


It's still none the less unlikely Onoki is going to use a taxing technique like Jinton on a crow. Mind you, jinton takes a while to prep; he has to charge up and fire and it's unlikely he'd do that before the crow reached him.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> You can say that for any long range fighter.



That's true, except for those like Deidara and Gaara whose attacks can be guided remotely or who possess a much greater area of effect than what they can safely utilize at shorter ranges.



> Mei is a long range combatant. If the acid mist, lava, and suitons don't convince you, then nothing will.



What am I supposed to be convinced of? That she can use these things at long-range? I know she can, but she is damning her chances of ever hitting Itachi by giving him more room to work with.



> The mist is used and blinds him making genjutsu useless and Itachi one big target.



Crows can be summoned to spread out through the mist and locate Mei. Or Itachi can lure her into attacking a clone, like I said.



> It does to Oonoki who has been able to do it just fine and instantly instructed the alliance to do so. Also been fighting Uchihas for years. He can make eye contact if he is far enough out of range.



Conventional wisdom says you run away if it's one-on-one; Itachi's also a special case, thanks to the instantaneous nature of his Tsukuyomi.



> He doesn't need to anticipate Amaterasu anyway. He can have bunshins on the field flying around as a precaution against it forcing Itachi to choose a target.



If Oonoki is constantly keeping clones in play, he is disabling his own ability to use Jinton. All he has left are stone golems for defense and weight manipulation to pin Itachi to the ground, but the latter requires physical contact and he isn't going to pull that off against someone who could handle himself in a fist fight with Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. Forget Susano'o, which Oonoki has no way to penetrate without Jinton.



> Actually yes. He flies which means he can permanently stay out of genjutsu range unless the Uchiha in question is Sasuke Uchiha who can fly on a bird. This makes him a great Uchiha counter.



It also renders him unable to hit Itachi, and we know he doesn't like to fight that way.



> He has bunshins which makes amaterasu and other sharingan genjutsu less effective. This makes him a great Uchiha counter.



But at the cost of eliminating his only practical means of offense against an opponent as dangerous as Itachi and creating a bunch of watered-down copies that share this weakness and constantly drain his chakra.



> He has experience fighting Uchihas and knows to avoid eye contact. This makes him a great Uchiha counter.



His only known experience with an Uchiha was getting his lunch money taken by one. I don't see where all this anti-Uchiha hype is coming from; Oonoki is every bit as vulnerable as the next poor bastard.



> He also has a wealth of long range jutsu. How many shinobi do you know that can fly, have experience fighting Uchiha for many years to know to avoid eye contact, can use multiple bunshins, and attacks with vicious long range jutsu? These things make him a good Uchiha counter.



They don't make him a good Uchiha counter because he can't use all of these things effectively; clones split Oonoki's chakra and force him to rely on arm's-length combat with his power divided proportionally, which is terrible for someone so small and already so frail. His ability to avoid eye-contact is limited just like it is for anyone else, and there are still ways Itachi can trick him into a Genjutsu. "Wealth" doesn't really describe Oonoki's long-range repertoire, which consists (as far as we have seen) exclusively of Jinton.



> They will be spread out for one. Above, below, behind. Hell he may not be able to see some being hidden by giant dotons.



And he is going to somehow manage to do all of this...before Itachi, a notably faster combatant, blinks a giant flame across him? No.



> And secondly, he can't do that. With unlimited chakra as an Edo, he had to use individual amaterasu attacks to hit separate targets the Ceruberus and Nagato. Itachi has to use separate amaterasus for separate targets. The unlimited chakra version of himself taught me as much.



"Had to"? What is the basis of that claim? Even when he was alive, Itachi could sweep Amaterasu by turning his head. Sasuke did it, too, when he protected Itachi from Kabuto in the aftermath of Muki Tensei.



> Was Itachi dying from Susano being up while coughing up blood staving off Jinton and Yonton attacks when Kakashi popped up from underground? Because that's what he will be facing here.



Assuming the fight has dragged on to the point that Itachi's reflexes are compromised from using Susano'o, Oonoki will most likely be dead or in equally-bad shape.

Edo Itachi doesn't suffer backlash from MS, btw.



> And then it is a bunshin and now Itachi hits the floor coughing up blood making him open to Mei's yonton from behind, killing him.



Susano'o negates. And I'll remind you again that Edo Itachi doesn't have such problems, and the whole "hitting the floor coughing up blood" thing wasn't even a problem for living Itachi until he was at the end of his rope.



> Go to dictionary.com and look up the words "distraction," "sickness," and "exhaustion." They apply here to Uchiha Itachi.



Go to urbandictionary.com and look up the phrases "donkey punch" and "cosby sweater." They apply here to what Itachi is going to do to these two Kage.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Since when do clone feints provide a viable counter for Amaterasu? When have we ever seen this work, or been given a reason to believe that it would?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since Itachi showed me that amaterasu can only be utilized on one target at a time (apparently two if they are close together) after a lengthy charge time.

5-10 meters is just fine to hit Uchiha Itachi. Especially if he is in the mist and can't see what's going on too well or he is being attacked from more than one direction. He only needs to do it a couple times for a couple amaterasus. Oonoki has more than enough chakra to outlast a sick Itachi don't you worry. Oonoki will be flying. Forcing eye contact is a cute notion. Mei will be in the mist, he won't be finding her.

Comparison doesn't work. 3.5 tier speeds can hit 4.5 tier speeds. So Sasuke tagging a bird doesn't mean much in terms of how fast Deidara on his bird is. And same for Oonoki. Two people dance around doesn't mean they are same speed either. I also clearly said that these comparisons don't matter at all in terms of the overarching theme of the conversation: Oonoki vs Itachi.

Itachi has also had more time to develop as a character than any of these. You don't have to praise them because they are what they are: Kages. That is praise in and of itself. You must have missed the part where I said no matter how you want to interpret it, it doesn't prove anything. See: Kakashi/Naruto example you ignored. I addressed this above as well.

Yet even after all of his development and in an immortal body, he was still scared as shit.

Same goes for him against Itachi. Considering he planned to kill him with a mortal body.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Since Itachi showed me that amaterasu can only be utilized on one target at a time (apparently two if they are close together) after a lengthy charge time.



Itachi can use Amaterasu on as many targets as he can sweep before he has to close his eye:

*ino's real body sustains any damage that she does to the body she's in.*

The flames ignite wherever he looks. The number of targets is not restricted to a fixed amount.



> 5-10 meters is just fine to hit Uchiha Itachi. Especially if he is in the mist and can't see what's going on too well or he is being attacked from more than one direction. He only needs to do it a couple times for a couple amaterasus.



Mei is a woman and I'm not sure what you're referring to; Itachi can't even use MS in that match.



> Oonoki has more than enough chakra to outlast a sick Itachi don't you worry.



Based on...?



> Oonoki will be flying. Forcing eye contact is a cute notion.



Cute or not, it's still entirely possible if Oonoki is maintaining a short enough distance to have a realistic shot at hitting Itachi. Especially if he goes in for weight-manipulation, as you've suggested he might.



> Mei will be in the mist, he won't be finding her.



With crows or clones, he has the ability to.



> Comparison doesn't work. 3.5 tier speeds can hit 4.5 tier speeds. So Sasuke tagging a bird doesn't mean much in terms of how fast Deidara on his bird is. And same for Oonoki. Two people dance around doesn't mean they are same speed either. I also clearly said that these comparisons don't matter at all in terms of the overarching theme of the conversation: Oonoki vs Itachi.



They matter inasmuch as they prove that Itachi is much faster than Oonoki, that Oonoki is screwed if he tries to get close enough to change Itachi's weight, and that Itachi is easily capable of hitting the Tsuchikage.



> Itachi has also had more time to develop as a character than any of these. You don't have to praise them because they are what they are: Kages. That is praise in and of itself.



Being Kage does not automatically make you as intelligent as Itachi. It's funny, but Itachi was said to have the mindset of a Hokage when he was 7, so there goes your Kage hype.

To approach the issue from a more serious angle, it's extremely evident that not every Kage is Itachi's intellectual equal. Just look at A or the 2nd Mizukage. Being Kage does not necessarily prove top tier competititve intelligence.



> You must have missed the part where I said no matter how you want to interpret it, it doesn't prove anything. See: Kakashi/Naruto example you ignored. I addressed this above as well.



Kakashi is explicitly more intelligent than Naruto. They aren't even comparable in that regard; Naruto simply makes up for it by excelling in other areas.



> Yet even after all of his development and in an immortal body, he was still scared as shit.



Fear isn't a rational response. Oonoki is someone Deidara has apparently known from the time he was very young; it's not surprising that he would be intimidated.



> Same goes for him against Itachi. Considering he planned to kill him with a mortal body.



He developed C4 for that purpose, but he evidently didn't realize that the Sharingan could see it.


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## ueharakk (Oct 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This is a downright ridiculous comparison. A clone has to stand-still to gather natural energy for SM. Cannonically Sandaime Raikage would have beaten down the Naruto-clone before this is possible, if not for Dodai.


Nope, since it's a SM clone, it means he starts the fight in sage mode.  What you are referring to is a BASE clone which would start the fight in base and require help.



Turrin said:


> Clones can't just magically appear in SM w/o prior prep.


um what?  Of course they can, Naruto just makes them while he's in SM.



Turrin said:


> Additionally even after achieving SM, the clone canonically needed additional help gaining intel on Sandaime to win. Sure the knowledge has now become Naruto's, but the knowledge has also become Sandaime's. So if the match was played out again Sandaime would not make the mistake of charging forward with his strongest hell-bringer, and thus once again the clone would loose to Sandaime. (though one can even ask if Sandaime would have made the mistake in the first place, as Kabuto was in control not Sandaime).


That's irrelevant since your assessment of oonoki vs the susanoo clones has nothing to do with the actions that they'd take or chose not to take, all that matters is the final result which is oonoki beating the susanoo clones thus making oonoki > 5 susanoo clones.  So no, sandaime potentially changing his strategy after that has nothing to do with a SM clone being > him by your own logic because by that logic, madara just changes his strategy on oonoki the next time he sends 5 clones after him.  In addition to that, oonoki had more than general intel about madara, he actually fought madara before and had all of konoha's intel on the rinnegan, so that's even a bigger advantage of naruto's reputation and story intel since he had it long before he even fought madara.



Turrin said:


> The scenario that allowed the clone to prevail was completely contrived by the help it received throughout the battle. Not to mention this is a silly point to make because Madara's clones are inherently different than Naruto's. As Mokubushin they do not disperse when hit, which is the main weakness of clones, besides the division of chakra.


um, nope.  The SM clone had no help against sandaime raikage. Sandaime was at full power the clone never engaged him with SM before and if you want to bring up him getting knowledge, oonoki had even more coming into the battle against his opponent. 



Turrin said:


> It seems to me that you have completely failed to understand my point. I was never commenting on Onoki being able to use massive scale techniques. I was commenting on Onoki's being able to counter attacks, which the author has clearly established as being as more potent than anything Itachi has ever produced or gone up against.


Considering "lifting turtle island" isn't in anyway a counter to an attack, I'd suggest you understand your own point before accusing me of that.



Turrin said:


> Madara's combo of Flower Tree World + Susano'o Ambush + Massive Katon defeated 4 Gokage, however Onoki countered this combo allowing the Gokage to survive. When has Itachi ever gone up against an attack of that level and countered it? When has Itachi ever produced an attack of that level?


It doesn't matter, different shinobi have different tools that allow them to prevail in different scenarios.  Put oonoki in itachi's position against Kabuto and sasuke gets captured after hakugeki.  Oh and BTW itachi would have been able to counter that as susanoo completely blocks out the pollen, which means the gokage never fall asleep as long as he holds susanoo.  And surviving a combo =/= countering a combo, oonoki merely allowed the gokage to survive that.  



Turrin said:


> Itachi specifically stated Magatama was his best long-range Jutsu




*Do not waste my time.*  Best doesn't mean best for every scenario, he needed his most powerful offensive jutsu to hit chibaku tensei with enough force to bust the core.  He doesn't need that against oonoki since oonoki isn't as durable as a mountain in the sky.




Turrin said:


> Your really reaching here for an excuse, for something very obvious. Madara specifically credits Onoki with stopping his clones and does not say it was due to a blunder on his part, but rather praises Onoki for his superior exp allowing him to accomplish this:
> 
> _madara: damn you ohnoki...\\
> madara: you’re finally starting to show how experienced in battle you are.\\
> madara: you were able to stop susano-o with the added weight rock technique... and you were then able to help the raikage...\\_


Well since you haven't disputed the other portion where it could have been a combination of oonoki and help from another kage's jutsu, then I'm guessing you concede this point.



Turrin said:


> Medical techniques do not super-power, they restore. Shosen restored Onoki's stamina to a certain degree, sure, but that still means at the very least at 100% Onoki could pull out the same Jinton.


NORMAL medical techniques do not super power but only restore.  Not Byakugo Tsunade's most powerful medical technique which allows oonoki to perform a jinton magnitudes larger than anything he's ever done using his own chakras.

In addition to that, even if it only did restore oonoki, the most you could say is that he could use that jinton cube, not about how long he could actually hold it for or if he could hold it long enough for the technique to destroy those susanoo clones.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> They're more likely to observe IC, which by then it will be to late.
> 
> In Onoki's case, Itachi can use _Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu_ on the crow's sharingan, and just make it outright kill Onoki instead of genjutsu him. Since Amaterasu activates faster than Jinton that would solve that issue.
> 
> It's still none the less unlikely Onoki is going to use a taxing technique like Jinton on a crow. Mind you, jinton takes a while to prep; he has to charge up and fire and it's unlikely he'd do that before the crow reached him.


Says who? You? More likely to observe an attack coming their way from one of the most deadly shinobi in the Narutoverse? Seriously? From two of the strongest shinobi in the Narutoverse? And most famous? Kages? I'll stick with the mindset that they actually avoid attacks being thrown at them. What's the first thing we learn in this manga. "See underneath the underneath." Academy level common sense here.

Completely and utterly unknown to be possible.

Jinton charge time is extremely brief. Let's not start bullshitting Itachi's crow speed now. And you don't get it. It can be a kunai. A rock. A D ranked doton. It doesn't matter. The point is, it is a damn crow. Which means it is effortlessly obliterated. You seriously turning this thread into Tsuchikage vs. one of Itachi's crows? This is an insult to any half way competent ninja. Something seemingly harmless comes from an enemy shinobi. Do we coddle it like a pet or kill it swiftly? Common sense dude.



Nikushimi said:


> Crows can be summoned to spread out through the mist and locate Mei. Or Itachi can lure her into attacking a clone, like I said.
> 
> If Oonoki is constantly keeping clones in play, he is disabling his own ability to use Jinton. All he has left are stone golems for defense and weight manipulation to pin Itachi to the ground, but the latter requires physical contact and he isn't going to pull that off against someone who could handle himself in a fist fight with Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. Forget Susano'o, which Oonoki has no way to penetrate without Jinton.
> 
> ...


Only one crow at a time has been shown to use genjutsu. Only one. She can just play target practice with a couple kunai while Itachi wastes chakra on summoning crows trying to cast a gen.jutsu. She destroys a clone Itachi wastes chakra while still trying to find the Mizukage in the mist. She fights with long range so she doesn't have to be on top of the clone to kill it.

Oonoki using clones prevents him from using Jinton? That's Muu not Oonoki. And that is his splitting technique. Unless I am missing something. You mean the guy that ran away from Killer Bee/KCM Naruto? The same one that ran from Killer Bee's kenjutsu in the same chapter? The one that drew with KCM Naruto's taijutsu who was so weakened/holding back that his punches were as fast as Killer Bee's Samehada swings and kicks were as strong as Itachi's? Look up the word "details" while that dictionary.com tab is still open. Itachi's CQC prowess is limited to being on par with Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi's. Someone Base Naruto surpassed a while ago. Oonoki would be just fine against Itachi CQC. The jinton, clones, and golems would wreck Base Itachi.

Oonoki can't use jinton with clones out? They constantly drain chakra? News to me.

He has fought Madara and multiple wars against Konoha. The strongest Uchiha ever is some serious experience.

No they don't. He can still use jinton, fly, and his other jutsu. Yet due to his years of experience, he adjusts to it pretty well. Jinton is a type of jutsu. He has quite a variety of jinton. As well as dotons and golems. Quite the wealth indeed. So yes he is indeed an Uchiha counter. You failed to disprove anything and seem to be running on misinformation.




Nikushimi said:


> And he is going to somehow manage to do all of this...before Itachi, a notably faster combatant, blinks a giant flame across him? No.
> 
> 
> "Had to"? What is the basis of that claim? Even when he was alive, Itachi could sweep Amaterasu by turning his head. Sasuke did it, too, when he protected Itachi from Kabuto in the aftermath of Muki Tensei.
> ...


Yes. Itachi doesn't start with amaterasu. Amaterasu has a charge time. You ignored these facts in your post. So yes he will make bunshins and they can spread out long before Uchiha Itachi uses amaterasu.

He was focusing on Sasuke. Once it hit his target, the jutsu stopped burning. Once said target is hit the amaterasu is complete and a new amaterasu must be cast. Itachi had to do so on the katon, Sasuke, Ceruberus, and Nagato. Sasuke also had an eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. The range was also just a small circle around Sasuke/Itachi. Sasuke was also said to be more skilled with amaterasu than Itachi. So no I won't give Sasuke's feat to Itachi and even if I did (this is the important part) it wouldn't matter because Oonoki will be 6-7 targets flying around not in a nice neat circle all around Itachi.

Doubtful. 1 amaterasu hits a bunshin and Oonoki is unfazed but Itachi is then coughing up blood.

Oops my mistake. Thanks for that correction. He was coughing up blood after the tsukiyomi failed I think. I could be mistaken of course. I don't recall Itachi fights as well as I used to.

So I take it you did look up the meanings! Obviously you must have otherwise you wouldn't be so offended. Don't be so upset.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi can use Amaterasu on as many targets as he can sweep before he has to close his eye:
> 
> *An exhausted Kakashi way back in part 1*
> 
> ...



Your scan proves my point perfectly. Amaterasu had to chase down the target Uchiha Sasuke. Unless the clones all stand together like trees and one clone passes over them as the amaterasu chases him then the clones will be fine. Itachi has NEVER and I repeat NEVER used the same amaterasu to attack multiple targets. He has ALWAYS used a single amaterasu per target (I do recognize the Ceruberus but I am counting the whole thing as one target). Why has he done this? Is it because of chakra constraints? No, because he did this when he had unlimited chakra. It is in the very definition of the jutsu. The user "focuses." Focus implies one target because it is only truly possible to focus on one thing at a time. It is simply a mechanic of the jutsu. One amaterasu per target.

Based on two clone feints on amaterasu will put Itachi on his knees when Oonoki will just be getting started.

Jinton, golems, and clones say otherwise. He doesn't have to be in Itachi's face for these three things to kill him.

The clones act like Kage Bunshins and tell him location? Especially when she will be on the move? Please, kunai waste any crows that might happen to be near her. Clones waste chakra that he will desperately need. They may help find her but if he is half dead when he does will it be worth it?

None of that shows Itachi is faster than Oonoki. So try again. And none of that helps when the target is in the air above you and he is being bombarded with jinton, clones, and golems. He can easily hit a target in the air now? A high kage level shinobi? Lawl please do tell.

No one said it did. Naruto will be Hokage one day yet he won't be more intelligent than a lot of people. The mindset means the intelligence now?

Sure. Yet some are arguably his superior i.e. Oonoki and Tsunade.

Rest of your post is pointless when discussing the topic at hand so I deleted the rest. Honestly the past two parts are irrelevant.


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## Lace (Oct 26, 2013)

Scenario 2 is the only one where Itachi could possibly lose.


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Nope, since it's a SM clone, it means he starts the fight in sage mode.  What you are referring to is a BASE clone which would start the fight in base and require help.


There is no such thing as a clone that just appears in SM. Ether the clone needs to gather natural energy or Naruto himself does. Both cases require prior prep, if the clone is to start the battle in SM.




> um what? Of course they can, Naruto just makes them while he's in SM.


Real Naruto would have to gather natural energy, enter SM, and than use KB, before the battle began. This is prior-prep.



> That's irrelevant since your assessment of oonoki vs the susanoo clones has nothing to do with the actions that they'd take or chose not to take, all that matters is the final result which is oonoki beating the susanoo clones thus making oonoki > 5 susanoo clones. So no, sandaime potentially changing his strategy after that has nothing to do with a SM clone being > him by your own logic because by that logic, madara just changes his strategy on oonoki the next time he sends 5 clones after him. In addition to that, oonoki had more than general intel about madara, he actually fought madara before and had all of konoha's intel on the rinnegan, so that's even a bigger advantage of naruto's reputation and story intel since he had it long before he even fought madara.


Onoki never had people telepathically feeding him intel and Madara actually had knowledge of Onoki going into that scuffle. So of course it doesn't apply and that's the whole problem, your trying to draw a comparison that doesn't exist.



> Considering "lifting turtle island" isn't in anyway a counter to an attack, I'd suggest you understand your own point before accusing me of that.


Actually it was to counter an attack. Attacks  Akatsuki or Kabuto might attempt to grab Naruto on their journey to Lighting Country. However what I brought up the Turtle Island feat as a basis for comparison to the meteor countering feat, as some people question his ability to weight alter massive objects and try to credit Gaara primarily with stopping the meteor, even though it blatantly has Onoki saying he just needed a little extra help. But there you go.



> It doesn't matter, different shinobi have different tools that allow them to prevail in different scenarios.


Yeah and if it was only one situation where Onoki managed to counter a specific high level Jutsu due to Onoki excelling in one ability, than i'd agree, but Meteor, Flower Tree World + Katon, & 25 Susano'o, are all extremely varied. So Onoki has been consistently show able to counter extremely powerful attacks. 

And example of being well suited to the task would be Itachi getting Kabuto to end Edo Tensei and guess what Kishi had it stated that Itachi was well suited to this task. Not the case with Onoki. 



> Put oonoki in itachi's position against Kabuto and sasuke gets captured after hakugeki.


Haguki would be vaporized by Jinton or probably even blown away by Fuuton. Not that Onoki or Sasuke would even be in range of Haguki if they were fighting Kabuto, as they would be flying around at long-range.



> Oh and BTW itachi would have been able to counter that as susanoo completely blocks out the pollen


Well this is made up. Susano'o clearly allows air to pass through it otherwise Itachi would suffocate. Not to mention their is a hole at the bottom of Itachi's Susano'o which would allow air in.



> which means the gokage never fall asleep as long as he holds susanoo.


When has Susano'o ever shown it can surround 4 Gokage. You also realize that the Mokuton would surround Susano'o completely and suck up it's chakra or can be used to just pull Itachi out of Susano'o from bellow. 



> And surviving a combo =/= countering a combo, oonoki merely allowed the gokage to survive that.


Destroying flower tree world and allowing the Gokage to survive with zero noteworthy damage, is countering the combo.



> Do not waste my time. Best doesn't mean best for every scenario, he needed his most powerful offensive jutsu to hit chibaku tensei with enough force to bust the core. He doesn't need that against oonoki since oonoki isn't as durable as a mountain in the sky.


Amaterasu was called Itachi's strongest physical attack:

_右ノ万華鏡ハ最強ノ物理攻撃…
Tora-Chan: If his left Mangekyou carries his strongest genjutsu,
his right one must have his strongest physical attack..._

This means that Amaterasu should not work at long- range, otherwise it would be his most powerful-long range attack, since it's stated to be his strongest physical attack. Now you can say maybe Amaterasu might not work on the core, though I think it would work just fine, especially if used in tandem with Rasen-Shuriken, but that still wouldn't make Magatama his strongest long range attack. Rather it would just make Magatama more useful in this particular situation. So the fact that Magatama is stated to be his most powerful long-range attack, rules Amaterasu out as an option at that range.

And Itachi has in-fact never shown he can use Amaterasu at such a long-range.

I'm assuming your referring to Amaterasu tho, if your not than I really have no clue what Jutsu Itachi has shown that could reach that range and be effective against Onoki.



> Well since you haven't disputed the other portion where it could have been a combination of oonoki and help from another kage's jutsu, then I'm guessing you concede this point.


I clearly refuted it by showing you exactly where Madara says it was Onoki who did it, not a combo attack. And please stop treating this like a debate where your going to look for every silly loop hole just to "win", even though there is no "winning" or "losing" here. This is the type of stuff that makes me not wish to respond anymore, because it becomes pointless as people will just look for the smallest loophole no matter how counter intuitive it is.



> NORMAL medical techniques do not super power but only restore. Not Byakugo Tsunade's most powerful medical technique which allows oonoki to perform a jinton magnitudes larger than anything he's ever done using his own chakras.


Tsunade was using Shosen on Onoki, not Byakgo. Never has Byakugo been stated to super charge things. So your just pulling this out of nowhere. 

Onoki never said that he used his max sized jinton, so him pulling out a large size was never something impossible to begin with.



> In addition to that, even if it only did restore oonoki, the most you could say is that he could use that jinton cube, not about how long he could actually hold it for or if he could hold it long enough for the technique to destroy those susanoo clones.


It instantly destroyed those Susano'o clones and honestly even if he had to make the cube 1/4  - 1/3 smaller to conserve chakra it would have still been large enough to destroy those Susano'o, most of the distance the cube needed to cover was to reach Madara who was very far away from where the Gokage were fighting Susano'o:
sure.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2013)

Base Itachi vs. Mei
Base Itachi should just edge this out in my opinion, Mei has decent reaction feats but Itachi is quite fast (tussling with KCM Naruto / SM Kabuto / B) and should be able to pressure her in CQC until he can put her under genjutsu via clone feint then kunai to the neck. Mei might have a chance if she runs away putting up hidden mist but that heavily banks on Itachi not coming at her which is very unlikely.

Itachi, mid-high difficulty.

Sick Itachi vs. Onoki
Onoki has a good chance here but Itachi edges him out. Itachi is much faster than Onoki and should be able to snipe him quickly with Amaterasu. IC Onoki rarely takes to the skies (and I mean out of Amaterasu's range) unless his opponent is also flying. He can also use extremely fast Yasaka beads to force Onoki down into Amaterasu range and snipe him. There's always the chance of genjutsu here as well. Assuming the battle doesn't drag on, his stamina should hold out.

Portrayal-wise, even sick Itachi has been portrayed as superior. Managing to hold back a lot and basically "win" a fight against a Kage-level opponent.

Itachi, high difficulty. 

Edo Itachi vs. Onoki & Mei
Remember Madara vs Gokage? Well it goes something like that. There's at least a two tier gap here.

Itachi opens the fight with 4-5 clones to keep Mei and Onoki busy for a second or two then proceeds to light the entire battlefield up with Amaterasu, most likely killing both Onoki and Mei in the process. Assuming Onoki dodges Amaterasu () while Jintoning clones then Itachi blindsides him (Onoki =/= B btw) grabs him with a Susanoo arm (faster than Itachi himself) and crushes him into a pulp.

Edo Itachi, low difficulty at worst.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 26, 2013)

"Base" itachi loses against mei. Hidden mist+Boil release mist is always the ideal combo when she is alone and itachi has no shield to withstand it. His fire is fodder to water techs and his genjutsu...well he cannot see her. Itachi needs one of his many trump cards to actually beat mei.

Sick itachi vs onoki hmmm...well onoki has the higher chance of taking this to me. A flying man who has the better chakra reserves(in this scenario) and a offense that cannot be scoffed at can wear itachi down before onoki is wore down. Itachi's only option is hitting a lucky genjutsu to either one shot onoki or set him up for a susanoo or amaterasu attack. But again with illness i just do not see him being able to crush the wise old man who has knowledge and a sure way of winning(outlasting). Yata mirror can only block jinton but itachi would still be nearing deaths door overtime. Onoki mid maybe high diff because he must be careful.

Edo itachi vs both of them. Itachi takes this with moderate diff. No stamina means the duo has a raging chakra humanoid to deal with and mei is lucky onoki can make her fly. However itachi is not going anywhere and none of them being sensors are prime for clone feints+amaterasu and tsukiyomi one shots. Totsuka blade has a impressive attack speed as well and could catch them off guard. Jinton is the only real deal offense here and itachi's yata mirror can show resistance to it+no medic to heal him means the spamming will end soon.

Edo itachi takes it like...mid diff at most.


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## ueharakk (Oct 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> There is no such thing as a clone that just appears in SM. Ether the clone needs to gather natural energy or Naruto himself does. Both cases require prior prep, if the clone is to start the battle in SM.


Of course, but that's irrelevant since I've never said a BASE clone can beat sandaime, I said a SM clone can do so, thus that assumes that the clone starts the fight in sage mode.




Turrin said:


> Real Naruto would have to gather natural energy, enter SM, and than use KB, before the battle began. This is prior-prep.


Once again, that's completely irrelevant if I state it's a SM clone.  Now if I said a BASE clone can beat sandaime raikage, then that would be true as the base clone would be the one that would require itself to sit and enter sage mode.



Turrin said:


> Onoki never had people telepathically feeding him intel and Madara actually had knowledge of Onoki going into that scuffle. So of course it doesn't apply and that's the whole problem, your trying to draw a comparison that doesn't exist.


That's completely irrelevant as oonoki came into the fight with the equivalent of the knowledge naruto gained via telepathy which means he had an advantage in knowledge.  Kabuto had more knowledge on naruto than naruto had on sandaime raikage so again, it's just you digging yourself in a deeper hole by bringing these points up as they only serve to support my argument.



Turrin said:


> Actually it was to counter an attack. Attacks  Akatsuki or Kabuto might attempt to grab Naruto on their journey to Lighting Country. However what I brought up the Turtle Island feat as a basis for comparison to the meteor countering feat, as some people question his ability to weight alter massive objects and try to credit Gaara primarily with stopping the meteor, even though it blatantly has Onoki saying he just needed a little extra help. But there you go.




No, that's not a counter attack, that's a pre-emptive strategy, counterattacks are made in retaliation to the opponent actually doing something, not the mere thought of them doing something.



Turrin said:


> Yeah and if it was only one situation where Onoki managed to counter a specific high level Jutsu due to Onoki excelling in one ability, than i'd agree, but Meteor, Flower Tree World + Katon, & 25 Susano'o, are all extremely varied. So Onoki has been consistently show able to counter extremely powerful attacks.


Sure, but his abilities would only apply to those scenarios, now if you want to say those abilities factor into his battle with itachi, then you have a burden of proof to do so, else, it's doesn't apply.  



Turrin said:


> And example of being well suited to the task would be Itachi getting Kabuto to end Edo Tensei and guess what Kishi had it stated that Itachi was well suited to this task. Not the case with Onoki.
> 
> 
> Haguki would be vaporized by Jinton or probably even blown away by Fuuton. Not that Onoki or Sasuke would even be in range of Haguki if they were fighting Kabuto, as they would be flying around at long-range.


Nope, since itachi nor sasuke attempted to do anything against hakugeki oonoki doesn't get that luxury.  And that's assuming you can show that oonoki can actually perform jinton after reacting to the technique being used which is another thing you'd have to show. how would flying in the cave at all help against hakugeki's affects? 



Turrin said:


> Well this is made up. Susano'o clearly allows air to pass through it otherwise Itachi would suffocate. Not to mention their is a hole at the bottom of Itachi's Susano'o which would allow air in.


Susanoo is airtight against bad things.  It blocks out acidic mist, katons and lava, all of which would hurt the susanoo user if it were not air tight.  So nope.



Turrin said:


> When has Susano'o ever shown it can surround 4 Gokage. You also realize that the Mokuton would surround Susano'o completely and suck up it's chakra or can be used to just pull Itachi out of Susano'o from bellow.


Lol wait hold on, flower tree world can now suck up chakra?  When has madara utilized flower tree world to do any action as specific as target an individual, grab them and pull them?  Itachi's *V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*



Turrin said:


> Destroying flower tree world and allowing the Gokage to survive with zero noteworthy damage, is countering the combo.


No it's not, not when all of them were put to sleep and were hit by susanoo.  If no ill effects happened to them, then sure he countered it, however that's not the case.



Turrin said:


> Amaterasu was called Itachi's strongest physical attack:
> 
> _右ノ万華鏡ハ最強ノ物理攻撃
> Tora-Chan: If his left Mangekyou carries his strongest genjutsu,
> ...


Where is that statement from?  Can you link me to it?  And it doesn't really matter anyways since we already know that for the purpose of destroying the crater the context was about straight up destructive power in a very short time, not hax.  If Itachi fired his yasaka magatama at the samurai that got hit by amaterasu, I'm pretty sure the samurai would die.  



Turrin said:


> And Itachi has in-fact never shown he can use Amaterasu at such a long-range.


All that is required is to focus your eye on the target and the flames converge on that point. Amaterasu has never been implied to have a range restriction, itachi's flames have lit up objects hundreds of yards away from himself.



Turrin said:


> I clearly refuted it by showing you exactly where Madara says it was Onoki who did it, not a combo attack. And please stop treating this like a debate where your going to look for every silly loop hole just to "win", even though there is no "winning" or "losing" here. This is the type of stuff that makes me not wish to respond anymore, because it becomes pointless as people will just look for the smallest loophole no matter how counter intuitive it is.


It's not a loophole, this is how debates are conducted in order to keep both parties honest.  You have to respond to your opponent's points.  If you just ignore them, then it means that you can't think of a response and thus you'd logically concede that point.  If I say you concede because you ignored X, all you have to do is respond to that argument in the next post, thus no concession.

And Oonoki receiving help from another person's jutsu is not contradicted by madara's line since it would take his experience and all that to capitalize on that jutsu in order to defeat those clones.




Turrin said:


> Tsunade was using Shosen on Onoki, not Byakgo. Never has Byakugo been stated to super charge things. So your just pulling this out of nowhere.


What's the evidence that she was using shosen on oonoki?  I didn't mean she was using byakugo, I meant that she was powered up by byakugo while using her med on oonoki.



Turrin said:


> Onoki never said that he used his max sized jinton, so him pulling out a large size was never something impossible to begin with.


He doesn't have to state that he used his max sized jinton, if the one time he uses a jinton magnitudes larger than his others is when he's getting assistence from the best medic in the manga and he was never implied to be able to create a jinton of that size, then its evidence against the argument that he can do one of that size as it's a massive outlier WITH an explanation.



Turrin said:


> It instantly destroyed those Susano'o clones and honestly even if he had to make the cube 1/4  - 1/3 smaller to conserve chakra it would have still been large enough to destroy those Susano'o, most of the distance the cube needed to cover was to reach Madara who was very far away from where the Gokage were fighting Susano'o:
> *V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*


It didn't instantly destroy those susanoo clones, madara said that they WON'T (future tense) be able to absorb the jinton 2 panels after the jinton cube enveloped them.  Also, the only susanoo that jinton has ever instantly destroyed was ribcage so I don't understand where you are getting the idea that jinton instantly destroys susanoo if it touches it.  And sure, he didn't need it to be that big, but again, that's still magnitudes larger than what he's done in real life and we don't know how long he could hold such a technique.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2013)

Turrin, I'd just like to point out Obito's far superior Kuroi Jinton (which can mess up Edo Tensei zombies unlike regular Jinton plus comparing Obito to Onoki is like comparing a stick to Onoki) take a brief moment to completely pierce Sasuke's Susanoo limb. I'm sure Itachi's can easily tank anything short of the Jinton cube considering it's a Susanoo 4 stages up, possesses the Yata's Mirror for defense and Black Jinton is massively stronger than Onoki's version. Onoki is one of (if not) the strongest Kages but he's still at the level; he's nowhere near beings like Minato/Itachi.

Also the V3's Susanoo clones were pissweak, Tsunade was smacking them about like toys. Not to mention it took 5 of their swords to bust Gaara's defense when Madara's own almost blew through Onoki + Gaara's defense. The fact that Mei and Gaara (low tier Kages / suck at CQC) held their own for a long time suggests the clones were merely ways for Madara to have fun. Not to mention I seriously doubt the prowess of clones after Madara beat Hashirama's best clones while chilling and skewering him on a sword like a piece of pork.


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> nce again, that's completely irrelevant if I state it's a SM clone. Now if I said a BASE clone can beat sandaime raikage, then that would be true as the base clone would be the one that would require itself to sit and enter sage mode.


I repeat it is literally impossible that a clone can start a fight in SM, unless their is prior prep. So if your saying there is no prior-prep and the clone still starts in SM, than you are literally magicking the impossible into existence. 

If you magick impossible conditions into play, anyone can be made to beat anyone.



> That's completely irrelevant as oonoki came into the fight with the equivalent of the knowledge naruto gained via telepathy which means he had an advantage in knowledge.


Onoki was given knowledge key to discerning a weakness of Madara's 



> Kabuto had more knowledge on naruto than naruto had on sandaime raikage so again, it's just you digging yourself in a deeper hole by bringing these points up as they only serve to support my argument.


You know what the difference is Kabuto's knowledge on Naruto, was not key to discerning a weakness of Naruto's. I really should not even have to explain the difference.



> No, that's not a counter attack, that's a pre-emptive strategy, counterattacks are made in retaliation to the opponent actually doing something, not the mere thought of them doing something.


The opponent did do something. They attacked turtle island to get Naruto. This was Onoki's response. But you can set up a counter to an attack, in advance. 

Not that this even matters as that wasn't my meaning, anyway. 



> Sure, but his abilities would *only* apply to those scenarios,


So Onoki's Jinton only useful in a scenario where someone uses Flower Tree World + Katon and 25 Susano'o. His weight alteration only useful when someone drops meteors or an island needs to be lifted. I seriously have to prove that out of the other zillions of possible scenarios Onoki can find himself in there would be other scenario's where his abilities would work besides just those? You got to be kidding me with this BS. 



> now if you want to say those abilities factor into his battle with itachi,


You do realize in that instance I was talking in a general sense about the level at which Kishi portrayed Onoki. To show rocky that Onoki is not supposed to be seen as so vastly beneath Itachi it's laughable that he could give Itachi a good fight. I.E. if Kishi allowed Onoki to take on that shit from Madara, I doubt he'd have him get own'd by Itachi.



> else, it's doesn't apply.


Yeah how Onoki's performed against an incredibly skilled Uchiha who has many of the same abilities as Itachi, is surely irrelevant and not worth brining up in a discussion of Onoki vs Itachi 



> Nope, since itachi nor sasuke attempted to do anything against hakugeki oonoki doesn't get that luxury.


What the hell is this BS, no one put that stipulation on Itachi that he couldn't do anything. In-fact Itachi did do something he dashed to Sasuke's side, so that he'd be in-range to protect him with Susano'o, if it came to that. Onoki being a different shinobi and not having Susano'o, would go about protecting Sasuke in another way, I.E. trying to do away with the Jutsu. Or having long since granted Sasuke flight, allowing them to keep their distance.



> And that's assuming you can show that oonoki can actually perform jinton after reacting to the technique being used which is another thing you'd have to show.


No I think you have to prove that Onoki couldn't perform Jinton, Fuuton, Doton (to damper the sound or escape underground), & couldn't stone will himself enough to use a Jutsu during Haguki's effects, despite him stonewilling himself out of the effects of FTW. The reason you have to prove this shit, is because you were the one to make the assertion that if Onoki was in Itachi position Sasuke would get captured. 

Your making an assertion, i'm just saying it can go another way than that.



> how would flying in the cave at all help against hakugeki's affects?


Because Onoki and Sasuke combined have no ability to break through the roof of the cave or leave the cave in any fashion. 



> Susanoo is airtight against bad things. It blocks out acidic mist, katons and lava, all of which would hurt the susanoo user if it were not air tight. So nope.


If Susano'o was air tight than the user would suffocate. It must allow at least some air in. The mist did get through Susano'o and start to melt Sasuke:
*V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*

I don't see how the other things would be an issue. 



> Lol wait hold on, flower tree world can now suck up chakra?


Mokuton in general is shown to drain chakra.



> When has madara utilized flower tree world to do any action as specific as target an individual, grab them and pull them?


We've always seen Wood Release users be able to control their wood (  ) like this. Here's some basic examples of Hashirama doing so with essentially the same technique, just smaller (birth of trees):
*V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*
*V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*



> Itachi's V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,


I'll admit I was wrong about this, didn't remember that page. But anyway it won't be much help as Susano'o would still get swarmed by the wood, would have to let the pollen in eventually, etc...



> No it's not, not when all of them were put to sleep and were hit by susanoo. If no ill effects happened to them, then sure he countered it, however that's not the case.


What ill effects came from that. Oh good everyone bow down in fear of the ill effects of a power nap 



> Where is that statement from? Can you link me to it?


It's from the Itachi and Sasuke fight, the trans done by Tora-chan who was the best at that time.



> And it doesn't really matter anyways since we already know that for the purpose of destroying the crater the context was about straight up destructive power in a very short time, not hax.


Amaterasu does not have destructive power, huh!?

Also if Magatama was not Itachi's most powerful long-range Jutsu Kishi would have had Itachi say something else. It's that simple.



> All that is required is to focus your eye on the target and the flames converge on that point. Amaterasu has never been implied to have a range restriction, itachi's flames have lit up objects hundreds of yards away from himself.



DB II:

Amaterasu
User(s): Uchiha Itachi
Rank: -
TNG: Ninjutsu (Bloodline Limit)
*Range: Close*
Type: Attack

Now of course Kishi definition of short seems to fluctuate a little bit, for plot convenience, but we've never once seen Amaterasu used anywhere close to distance CT was at or Onoki would be flying at.


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

> It's not a loophole, this is how debates are conducted in order to keep both parties honest. You have to respond to your opponent's points. If you just ignore them, then it means that you can't think of a response and thus you'd logically concede that point. If I say you concede because you ignored X, all you have to do is respond to that argument in the next post, thus no concession.


This isn't a debate. This is a discussion. Though if this were a debate I would literally say my opponent is denying common-sense in-favor of the .00001% probability that something else happened, just so he can use this .00001% chance thing as a straw-man to attack instead of talking about an actually relevant issue. 

And I would easily win that debate. Because the judges would recognize given the evidence how ridiculously obvious it is that your just making up BS to try and find any excuse to ignore Onoki's feat as it doesn't sit well with your argument.

However this is not a debate, so you shouldn't care about trying to "win" a point so badly that you avoid having a civil discussion about what is most likely the case. My goal in this discussion is to try and come to some logical conclusions, not to prove you wrong. Yes I offer evidence against points I think are incorrect, but i'm not doing so just to prove you might be incorrect. I'm doing so to try and get you to see another view point on the issue. 

You can't possibly tell me that you actually think it wasn't Onoki doing that on his own with a straight face.



> And Oonoki receiving help from another person's jutsu is not contradicted by madara's line since it would take his experience and all that to capitalize on that jutsu in order to defeat those clones.


Yes it is, because Madara says Onoki himself did it. He did not say Onoki + Mei did it. He did not say Onoki shared exp that allowed the group to do it. He said F'u Onoki, your battle exp allowed you to weight alter my Susano'o clones (paraphrasing). Meanwhile all the other Gokage are of busy with their own Susano'o.

It is so dam obvious that Onoki did that on his own from Madara's words and the actual events, that there is absolutely no reason to doubt this is the case, unless you are just looking for any stupid excuse at this point.



> What's the evidence that she was using shosen on oonoki? I didn't mean she was using byakugo, I meant that she was powered up by byakugo while using her med on oonoki.


The fact that the she is drawn using Shosen 



> He doesn't have to state that he used his max sized jinton, if the one time he uses a jinton magnitudes larger than his others is when he's getting assistence from the best medic in the manga and he was never implied to be able to create a jinton of that size, then its evidence against the argument that he can do one of that size as it's a massive outlier WITH an explanation.


assistance which does not boost chakra capacity only restores. That's right she is the best medic, what have medics always done in this manga restore.  What is Shosen stated to do in the manga; heal. Etc...

Again this just seems like your making up a totally new ability for Shosen that was never once commented on, stated, etc... just to contrive a reason to ignore another one of Onoki's feats.



> It didn't instantly destroy those susanoo clones, madara said that they WON'T (future tense) be able to absorb the jinton 2 panels after the jinton cube enveloped them.


Hmm..I've seen this also translated as the past tense before. So perhaps this worthy question to ask translators &/or ask for a clearly trans in the Official Viz Clear up thread. 

Though I do not see Onoki having an issue holding the cube for a second or the incredibly brief time it takes to atomize them, if it's not instant. Especially if like I said he made the cube a bit smaller to conserve chakra.



> Also, the only susanoo that jinton has ever instantly destroyed was ribcage so I don't understand where you are getting the idea that jinton instantly destroys susanoo if it touches it.


From the fact that all those Susano'o-clones were instantly gone. And the fact that when Jinton was allowed to hit Madara, the first time it blew away his Susano'o in what seemed like an instant.



> And sure, he didn't need it to be that big, but again, that's still magnitudes larger than what he's done in real life and we don't know how long he could hold such a technique.


Obviously if he made it a whole 1/4 smaller he should be able to hold it for the brief time necessary, as he'd have all the chakra he saved on making it 1/4 smaller. 

I mean you could make a fair point about making Onoki not being able to hold one that is exactly that size and if  it can be cleared up that Jinton doesn't instantly obliterate the Susano'o, but I'm perfectly fine, saying okay we don't know when it comes to a cube exactly that size, but one that is 3/4 that size still not being okay makes no sense to me.


----------



## Alita (Oct 26, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- Without MS Mei wins IMO. With MS, she can win if she used her mist.
> 2- Onoki wins.
> 3- They still win.


How do they dispose of edo itachi? I agree with the rest of your post though.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I repeat it is literally impossible that a clone can start a fight in SM, unless their is prior prep. So if your saying there is no prior-prep and the clone still starts in SM, than you are literally magicking the impossible into existence.


Again, that's completely and utterly irrelevant.  The statement was that a SM clone is > Sandaime raikage based on those feats, thus whatever stipulations that have to be achieved beforehand are completely irrelevant, the fight starts with the clone in sage mode.  



Turrin said:


> If you magick impossible conditions into play, anyone can be made to beat anyone.


Really?  Saying a clone starts a fight in SM is magicing an impossible condition?  That's just a stipulation.  That's like saying starting distance of a fight being 30 meters is "magicing an impossible situation" since before that distance is reached, the fighters walk, run or move from miles away from each other in order to just get on the same battlefield.   All parameters that are required in order for characters to fullfill the initial conditions have been done before the fight has begun, that's the basics of basics.

So no, the fight is SM Naruto vs Sandaime raikage, that means that the stipulation is that naruto's clone starts the fight in sennin mode.



Turrin said:


> Onoki was given knowledge key to discerning a weakness of Madara's


Irrelevant if the knowledge he approached the battle with eventually lead to discovering a weakness of madara's.  The fact remains that he had a lot more knowledge and experience with combatting madara than naruto's clone did.  Do you dispute that or do you not?



Turrin said:


> You know what the difference is Kabuto's knowledge on Naruto, was not key to discerning a weakness of Naruto's. I really should not even have to explain the difference.


That's again, completely and utterly irrelevant since the factor is KNOWLEDGE and oonoki came into the fight with at least as much as naruto did.  Whether he was smart enough to discern a weakness of susanoo or not with that knowledge is his problem.



Turrin said:


> The opponent did do something. They attacked turtle island to get Naruto. This was Onoki's response. But you can set up a counter to an attack, in advance.
> 
> Not that this even matters as that wasn't my meaning, anyway.


That's once again, not a definition of a counterattack as oonoki only did that after his opponents finished their attack and left the battlefield.  It was a preemptive strategy.



Turrin said:


> So Onoki's Jinton only useful in a scenario where someone uses Flower Tree World + Katon and 25 Susano'o. His weight alteration only useful when someone drops meteors or an island needs to be lifted. I seriously have to prove that out of the other zillions of possible scenarios Onoki can find himself in there would be other scenario's where his abilities would work besides just those? You got to be kidding me with this BS.
> 
> You do realize in that instance I was talking in a general sense about the level at which Kishi portrayed Onoki. To show rocky that Onoki is not supposed to be seen as so vastly beneath Itachi it's laughable that he could give Itachi a good fight. I.E. if Kishi allowed Onoki to take on that shit from Madara, I doubt he'd have him get own'd by Itachi.


That's just mixing feats with hype then.  Sure you can say that "kishi won't allow oonoki to take that from itachi" but if you can't even give an argument about how he'd be able to do something like that without invoking magic into your explanation, then it doesn't mean anything.  



Turrin said:


> Yeah how Onoki's performed against an incredibly skilled Uchiha who has many of the same abilities as Itachi, is surely irrelevant and not worth brining up in a discussion of Onoki vs Itachi


Of course it doesn't if that incredibly skilled uchiha doesn't use abilities that would change that itachi would use that would allow him to counter oonoki's own abilities.




Turrin said:


> No I think you have to prove that Onoki couldn't perform Jinton, Fuuton, Doton (to damper the sound or escape underground), & couldn't stone will himself enough to use a Jutsu during Haguki's effects, despite him stonewilling himself out of the effects of FTW. The reason you have to prove this shit, is because you were the one to make the assertion that if Onoki was in Itachi position Sasuke would get captured.


Nope, you have to prove it since you were the one who made the positive assertion that jinton WOULD destroy hakugeki, thus the burden of proof is on you to support that argument.



Turrin said:


> Because Onoki and Sasuke combined have no ability to break through the roof of the cave or leave the cave in any fashion.


Because Sasuke and Itachi have no ability to break throug hthe roof o the cave or leave the cave in any fashion 



Turrin said:


> If Susano'o was air tight than the user would suffocate. It must allow at least some air in. The mist did get through Susano'o and start to melt Sasuke:
> *V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*
> 
> I don't see how the other things would be an issue.


Did you even read what you've quoted?  Susanoo is airtight AGAINST BAD THINGS, which is shown by mei's acid's inability to harm sasuke while inside of it until his susanoo is almost gone.  Had it NOT been airtight, his whole body would have started melting.  Then there's the fact that it kept out lava, liquid rock.



Turrin said:


> Mokuton in general is shown to drain chakra.


No they aren't.  There's only 3 mokutons that have done this, and if you want to give that ability to flower tree world then you have to show that it has it.



Turrin said:


> We've always seen Wood Release users be able to control their wood (  ) like this. Here's some basic examples of Hashirama doing so with essentially the same technique, just smaller (birth of trees):
> *V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*
> *V4 susanoo is more than large enough to surround the gokage,*


Yeah, that's while hashirama is growing his mokuton, NOT when it's established like FTW was when the gokage got smacked into it.  And Madara never did anything like that despite the entire battlefield being surrounded by the mokuton, so no again.



Turrin said:


> What ill effects came from that. Oh good everyone bow down in fear of the ill effects of a power nap


they all were hit by susanoo, and knocked out.  Had madara been serious, they'd be dead.  And ill effects =/= LASTING effects.



Turrin said:


> It's from the Itachi and Sasuke fight, the trans done by Tora-chan who was the best at that time.


can you link me to the page?



Turrin said:


> Amaterasu does not have destructive power, huh!?


Do NOT attack strawmen.



Turrin said:


> Also if Magatama was not Itachi's most powerful long-range Jutsu Kishi would have had Itachi say something else. It's that simple.


it is his most powerful long range jutsu in the context of what he needed to use it for.



Turrin said:


> DB II:
> 
> Amaterasu
> User(s): Uchiha Itachi
> ...


that was the second databook was it not?  At that time, amaterasu had only been used at a short distance, it didn't get launched like it did against cereberus or into the surrounding forest in the sasuke fight.  That's a retcon, kishi didn't even list he mechanics of the jutsu in that databook entry at that point.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This isn't a debate. This is a discussion. Though if this were a debate I would literally say my opponent is denying common-sense in-favor of the .00001% probability that something else happened, just so he can use this .00001% chance thing as a straw-man to attack instead of talking about an actually relevant issue.


Debate and discussion aren't mutually exclusive terms, thus it doesn't matter if you want to label one differently.  Whenever people have differing viewpoints, or are trying to say that one assertion is more probable than someone else's, those basic rules apply: that you can't ignore the argument, doing so shows you don't have an answer.



Turrin said:


> And I would easily win that debate. Because the judges would recognize given the evidence how ridiculously obvious it is that your just making up BS to try and find any excuse to ignore Onoki's feat as it doesn't sit well with your argument.


Since when am I ignoring oonoki's feat?  I fully accept he did all those things in the manga, however my analysis is deeper than lazy and biased A>B>C logic which is what I'm trying to show.



Turrin said:


> *However this is not a debate, so you shouldn't care about trying to "win" a point so badly that you avoid having a civil discussion about what is most likely the case.* My goal in this discussion is to try and come to some logical conclusions, not to prove you wrong. Yes I offer evidence against points I think are incorrect, but i'm not doing so just to prove you might be incorrect. I'm doing so to try and get you to see another view point on the issue.
> 
> You can't possibly tell me that you actually think it wasn't Onoki doing that on his own with a straight face.


I don't even know where you got the bolded from.  I don't think I've acted uncivil in anyway, if I say that you've tacitly conceded the point, I give the reason why you've done it. If anything it would be the person who chooses to ignore another argument that is being uncivil and does not really want to seek truth.  That's also why i said if you don't want to concede, then address the argument you ignored, thus there's no concession to be had.  Ignored arguments = conceded ones is there for the sole purpose of having a civilized debate so that I don't have to go policing arguments.



Turrin said:


> Yes it is, because Madara says Onoki himself did it. He did not say Onoki + Mei did it. He did not say Onoki shared exp that allowed the group to do it. He said F'u Onoki, your battle exp allowed you to weight alter my Susano'o clones (paraphrasing). Meanwhile all the other Gokage are of busy with their own Susano'o.


Except that does not mean that Oonoki didn't take advantage of the situations that the other clones or the gokage generated in the battle in order to do so.  You don't know that since it was offpanel, thus you'd have to give a featbased argument to show that he can actually do that on his own.  



Turrin said:


> The fact that the she is drawn using Shosen


Since when does shosen completely enveloped the healed person in an aura?



Turrin said:


> assistance which does not boost chakra capacity only restores. That's right she is the best medic, what have medics always done in this manga restore.  What is Shosen stated to do in the manga; heal. Etc...
> 
> Again this just seems like your making up a totally new ability for Shosen that was never once commented on, stated, etc... just to contrive a reason to ignore another one of Onoki's feats.


Can you show the scan of what shosen is stated to do?  i've already given my reasoning: mass outlier feat.



Turrin said:


> Hmm..I've seen this also translated as the past tense before. So perhaps this worthy question to ask translators &/or ask for a clearly trans in the Official Viz Clear up thread.
> 
> Though I do not see Onoki having an issue holding the cube for a second or the incredibly brief time it takes to atomize them, if it's not instant. Especially if like I said he made the cube a bit smaller to conserve chakra.


okay



Turrin said:


> From the fact that all those Susano'o-clones were instantly gone. And the fact that when Jinton was allowed to hit Madara, the first time it blew away his Susano'o in what seemed like an instant.


what leads you to believe the susanoo clones were instantly gone?  I don't disagree that it blew away his small ribcage susanoo nigh instantly.



Turrin said:


> Obviously if he made it a whole 1/4 smaller he should be able to hold it for the brief time necessary, as he'd have all the chakra he saved on making it 1/4 smaller.
> 
> I mean you could make a fair point about making Onoki not being able to hold one that is exactly that size and if  it can be cleared up that Jinton doesn't instantly obliterate the Susano'o, but I'm perfectly fine, saying okay we don't know when it comes to a cube exactly that size, but one that is 3/4 that size still not being okay makes no sense to me.


volume of cube = l*w*h. 27/64 would be the volume (and thus chakra) ratio of a cube 3/4 as long as the cube he made in the manga.  thus he'd be able to hold the cube twice as long as he could hold the one in the manga.


----------



## Jad (Oct 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Do NOT attack strawmen.



YEAH! They don't deserve it.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Three scenarios:
> 
> 
> _Base Itachi vs. Mei_
> ...





With Mei's massive Suitons she should be able to block all of Itachi's Katons and if Itachi uses a Suiton then Mei could use her own to overpower his or use a Doton wall(or another type of Doton) to block it. Itachi is gonna have to rely on his battle smarts, CQC skills, speed, genjutsu, crows and weapon skill while using guerrilla warfare in order to beat Mei. 

Itachi is fast enough to make a clone so fast that Sasuke was surprised that Itachi was able to do such while right in front of Sasuke which means Mei won't see one being able either. Itachi can use genjutsu by using a a finger or one of his crows along with his Sharingan genjutsu. With clones and genjutsu he could set up an combo for a fatal blow. He has shown good speed when going against B+Naruto as well during his fight with Sasuke and if he gets into CQC with Mei then he'll have the edge. He might be able to force her into a genjutsu or catch her in a quick moment like he did B which would allow him to use take advantage of her time under the genjutsu to finish her off(depending on how quick she can get out) or set up a clone feint for a better finishing blow. And with crows he can cause a quick distraction which could allow him to set up some clone feints or a deadly blow. 

The problem with him being able to do such would be her Futton and Kirigakure(or a combo of both at once) which greatly hurt his chances. He would start to feel the pain of the acid faster then Sasuke did when Mei used it against him due to lack of Susanoo and without being a medic he'll be quite messed up as he'll be likely to breath in the acid which melts his insides as well. Then add in Yoton which she could throw around which might hit Itachi as he may not see it coming depending on how thick the mist is as well not being able to dodge it due to the pain of the acid.

This comes down to how would the battle play out which is a 50/50 IMO. Itachi has the speed and skills which he can get into CQC which he could end it but if he was to run into the forest nearby forest and she set up her defense then she would win more times then not if Itachi goes in to attack. Unless Itachi sent a clone or actually knows about Futton he could then maybe wait it as Mei will be constantly using chakra to keep said jutsu up which would lead Itachi to an easier win but Itachi having such knowledge or sending in a clone first is a 50/50 shot as well. 



> [*]_Sick Itachi vs. Onoki_
> 
> 
> *Location: *Sannin Battlefield
> ...



This match has always came down to which would land first, Jinton or Ama imo which is a 50/50 shot. Itachi can deal with most of whatever Onoki throw ats him with Susanoo and things that he can deal with Susanoo he can just deal with thanks to his speed. The one big problem Itachi faces is Jinton. Onoki on the other hand can fly a few meter's up(like Deidara did against Sasuke) which would allow him to dodge most of what Itachi can throw at him and if he needs to, he can always use a stone Golem to help block attacks. The big problem for Onoki would be Ama. Both Ama and Jinton are seemingly chakra draining jutsu which means that won't be using them the entire match and they'll only have a few good shots to use.




> [*]_Edo Itachi vs. Both_
> 
> 
> *Location: *War Battlefield
> ...




Onoki nor Mei has a sealing jutsu to keep Itachi down and Edo regen along with his own defenses helps Itachi to deal with almost all of the Kage duo attacks. Itachi only problem would be Onoki's Doton: Kajūgan as that would pretty much leave him unable to fight. So this comes down to would Itachi be able to take out Onoki before Onoki touches him.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Oct 27, 2013)

Itachi is restricted from using Genjutsu, Ninjutsu and Taijutsu and he has no knowledge.


Kunai GG

Oonoki, Mei and the rest of the Kage combined get fodderized.

By sick Itachi.


----------



## Sans (Oct 27, 2013)

I like the way you think.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 27, 2013)

Itachi stomps all scenarios.

Vs Mei: he speedblitzes or fingers her. 

Vs Onoki: He has no counter for Amaterasu. He's sick, but he used Tsukuyomi, 3 Amaterasu, and Susanoo to block a hillbuster. He'll have to use Susanoo to block the first Jinton, but from there either Totsuka or Amaterasu blitz.

Vs both: He's Edo, he has no stamina issues. They can't get past Yata Mirror.


----------



## crisler (Oct 27, 2013)

1. mei
2. hmm...itachi
3. edo itachi


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 27, 2013)

Nikushimi, Turrin, I'm just going to point out that normal medical techniques _do_ restore. Medics have shown some sort of chakra transfer ability, which they sometimes use in unison with the shosen no jutsu. Restoring the alliance's chakra reserves was one of their primary objectives throughout the war.

 Naturally, when Tsunade releases the huge storage of chakra in her forehead into her body, she can feed her team-mates with a lot more chakra than usual. Thats why Onoki's jinton cube became so big.​​


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 27, 2013)

*Scenario 1:*

Itachi covers the distance and places Mei within Utakata or another illusion; she gets sodomized by a Bunshin thereafter.

*Scenario 2:*

After a brief scuffle through feints, Oonoki takes flight and gets fried by Amaterasu. 

*Scenario 3:*

Ridiculous stomp.

Endless Amaterasu/Susano'o/Totsuka spam... 

Either way, it is impossible for the Kage to win this match-up, as they don't have any sealing techniques to counter Edo Tensei.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 27, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> It's nice when the wankers pick such names, so you can dismiss their points instantly.



Explain how the aforementioned methods don't succeed. 

Enlighten me...


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 27, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> #1 lol speed blitz bullshit



If Mei is stuck inside Utakata or another illusion, she can't avoid getting her neck slashed or bum pounded. Speed blitz wasn't mentioned within my post. 

Concession accepted. 



> #2 Sick Itachi couldn't beat an old shoe.  Best case scenario is a draw, and that if he gets insanely lucky.  Onoki wipes the floor with him.



As soon as Oonoki takes flight, the poor geezer won't last very long. 
He doesn't have the sensory abilities to detect Amaterasu incoming, and Itachi has the speed to avoid Jinton - the regular variant, anyway - which is why this match-up shouldn't be debated. 



> #3 Mei and Onoki were both shown to be able to do serious damage to Madara's stronger Susanoo.  Assuming they have a means to seal him, its no issue.



And?
Itachi isn't Madara. 

As far as I know, their arsenals are pretty different, and Itachi isn't a cocky bastard that goofs around. Totsuka no Tsurugi slashes through any golems and proceeds to fodderize them. 

Regarding your last point,. they don't have the means to seal Itachi. so the Kage seem to lose this match-up automatically.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 27, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> How in the fuck is flight more vulnerable than the ground?
> 
> Wank wank wank,  no point in this.



I don't understand what you're implying. 

If Oonoki decides to take flight, his vulnerability will increase; he becomes a target for Amaterasu.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Oct 27, 2013)

Itachi soloes.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Again, that's completely and utterly irrelevant.  The statement was that a SM clone is > Sandaime raikage based on those feats, thus whatever stipulations that have to be achieved beforehand are completely irrelevant, the fight starts with the clone in sage mode.


Sure, but anyone making a match with Naruto or a clone starting in SM, would also acknowledge they are giving the advantage of prior prep. You keep refusing to acknowledge this advantage.



> rrelevant if the knowledge he approached the battle with eventually lead to discovering a weakness of madara's.


How useful the knowledge is, is irrelevant, yeah okay whatever bro.



> That's once again, not a definition of a counterattack as oonoki only did that after his opponents finished their attack and left the battlefield. It was a preemptive strategy


I really don't care, to keep discussing this point, because it really has no importance.



> That's just mixing feats with hype then.


That exactly what portrayal is taking into account feats and hype. 



> Sure you can say that "kishi won't allow oonoki to take that from itachi" but if you can't even give an argument about how he'd be able to do something like that without invoking magic into your explanation, then it doesn't mean anything.


You do realize there was more to my post than simply this assertion, where I did go into a feat based comparison. This was one part of a whole. 



> Of course it doesn't if that incredibly skilled uchiha doesn't use abilities that would change that itachi would use that would allow him to counter oonoki's own abilities.


I have no clue what your trying to say here.



> Nope, you have to prove it since you were the one who made the positive assertion that jinton WOULD destroy hakugeki, thus the burden of proof is on you to support that argument.


So wait your saying Jinton couldn't vaporize Haguki? What durability feats does Haguki have that suggests it's tanking Jinton? 



> Because Sasuke and Itachi have no ability to break throug hthe roof o the cave or leave the cave in any fashion


And I said they couldn't where?



> Did you even read what you've quoted? Susanoo is airtight AGAINST BAD THINGS, which is shown by mei's acid's inability to harm sasuke while inside of it until his susanoo is almost gone. Had it NOT been airtight, his whole body would have started melting. Then there's the fact that it kept out lava, liquid rock


You seem to be arguing that Susano'o blocks everything bad. But it didn't block the harmful sound waves of Haguki, only allowing innocuous sound waves in. In the case of Mei's mist the reason it didn't melt him right away is probably because it took awhile for the air inside Susano'o to start to be displaced by the harmful mist. It's not like I think air just freely flows through Susano'o, probably just a bit of air at a time gets through allowing the user to breath.

But let's think for a second that it would block the pollen. That would be fine, but there is still a hole in the bottom of Susano'o, and if Itachi is jumping to evade the eruption of FTW that whole will be open for the pollen to get in. Or if Madara knocks Itachi on his back into FTW that whole will still be open to the air. 



> No they aren't. There's only 3 mokutons that have done this, and if you want to give that ability to flower tree world then you have to show that it has it.


I think it's pretty obvious Mokuton in general has this ability, but it doesn't really matter as Madara could just shape the Mokuton surrounding Itachi in FTW, into the known chakra absorption variants, if he has to.



> Yeah, that's while hashirama is growing his mokuton, NOT when it's established like FTW was when the gokage got smacked into it. And Madara never did anything like that despite the entire battlefield being surrounded by the mokuton, so no again.


The second panel shows Hashirama altering the Mokuton that was already grown in the first panel. 

So wait Madara can't use that basic Mokuton skill that Hashirama in his weakened edo state could use, despite him being able to use techniques far beyond that level. Again you are just  reaching for excuses.



> they all were hit by susanoo, and knocked out. .


Which did nothing to them.



> Had madara been serious, they'd be dead. And ill effects =/= LASTING effects


If Madara had been serious they would have all been dead long before that combo was pulled out, as Madara would have P-Susano'o'd them to death. So this is kind of pointless to bring up as when discussing any bit of Madara vs the Gokage, we go into that discussion acknowledging he was not serious until he pulled out P-Susano'o.



> can you link me to the page?


The page of the trans?
Kajūgan



> Do NOT attack strawmen.


That's what you said, so it's not a straw-man. Basically i'm asking you to prove that Amaterasu would not be as effective against the core when combined with B & Naruto's attacks as Magatama.



> it is his most powerful long range jutsu in the context of what he needed to use it for.


Itachi did not say that, so your making shit up and adding it to the text. He said point blank it was his strongest long-range Jutsu.



> that was the second databook was it not? At that time, amaterasu had only been used at a short distance, it didn't get launched like it did against cereberus or into the surrounding forest in the sasuke fight. That's a retcon, kishi didn't even list he mechanics of the jutsu in that databook entry at that point.


I don't think any of that is necessarily beyond short-range personally, it is extremely hard to tell exact ranges when look at a 2 dimensional manga, and what's more Kishi screws up scaling all the time making it even more difficult.

But even if we say that it was retecond to go a bit  further distance than short. We still know that Kishi had the idea in his mind that the Jutsu can be limited by range, despite still being able to see the target. So that throws the argument of Amaterasu can ignite whatever the user can see no matter the range out the window, as Kishi apparently never thought of the Jutsu as having limitless range like that. Now maybe you can argue based on the Cerberous or Forest feats that Kishi has retecon'd Amaterasu's range from short to mid, but were is the proof that he's retecon'd it to the point where he could hit something as far away as CT or flying Onoki? Especially when this would be counter intuitive to Itachi's own statement of Magatama being his most powerful long-range attack.

What's more in all other instance you have always complain that we need to see the exact feat. Yet when it comes to Amaterasu, suddenly we don't need to see an actual feat of Amaterasu being used at such a great distance, we're suppose to just accept it, even though in Amaterasu's case it is much more unlikely than other cases your have contested previously, because of Itachi's Magatama statement.



> Except that does not mean that Oonoki didn't take advantage of the situations that the other clones or the gokage generated in the battle in order to do so. You don't know that since it was offpanel, thus you'd have to give a featbased argument to show that he can actually do that on his own.


Madara would not have said Onoki did it than. He would have said Mei + Onoki did it, or Tsunade + Onoki did it, etc... We also are clearly shown the other Gokage are busy dealing with their own Susano'o. Given all this can you honestly say with a straight face that the Susano'o being weight altered as part of a combo attack is as likely as Onoki simply accomplishing it himself. If you can't than you need to ask yourself why are you arguing this point.



> Since when does shosen completely enveloped the healed person in an aura?


The aura is probably from Onoki drawing out a massive Jinton or just there for artistic flare. Once in a while Kishi drew Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu with sparks in it, does that really mean anything, probably not.

Let me ask your something tho. Why would Onoki talk about being low on chakra and because of that this probably being his last shot. If Tsunade was giving Onoki more chakra than he's ever had before:
tsuchi: I don?t have much chakra left, so consider this is my last attack!\\

That very clearly makes it sound like if Onoki had more of his chakra left, he could use this giant Jinton and still have enough chakra left to use other attacks after it. That very clearly makes it sound like Tsunade isn't even providing Onoki with as much chakra as Onoki normally has. 

Again a-lot of this chapter seems to have a confusing trans, so I think it would be worth while asking a translator their thoughts before delving into this issue further.




> Can you show the scan of what shosen is stated to do? i've already given my reasoning: mass outlier feat.


This talks about medical ninjutsu and how they work:
Kajūgan

There is also a Data-book entry for Shōsen Jutsu specifically floating around the forums that I've read before, but I can't find it at this point. 

The wiki has general information on Shōsen taken from Data--book and manga though so here's a link to that as well:




> volume of cube = l*w*h. 27/64 would be the volume (and thus chakra) ratio of a cube 3/4 as long as the cube he made in the manga. thus he'd be able to hold the cube twice as long as he could hold the one in the manga.


Huh!? Math is not my strong suit; I don't think it's kishi's ether


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2013)

Itachi defeats Mei with mid difficulty. She might take more of his time than Orochimaru or Deidara, but I wouldn't expect her to do alot better either.

Sick Itachi vs Onoki would be somewhat of a close fight but I'd still say that Itachi would trump Onoki more often than not. While Itachi's sickness is a huge handicap, Onoki has his back problems. In a solo match, Onoki might just strain himself a bit too much and he'll find himself in a very shitty situation.

Edo Itachi should take em both. Manga knowledge would equal the playing ground a little bit but Itachi is still an overall superior fighter, he is smarter and quicker.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 27, 2013)

_Base Itachi vs. Mei_
*Location: *Open Field (with a forest nearby)
*Distance:* 35m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* Mangekyou
 
Mei should have knowledge on the Sharingan's illusory abilities (she's a Kage after all, and she also witnessed Danzo's Sharingan and its power of illusion), so this fight should be pretty easy for her. She sets up Kirigakure no Jutsu in order to erase Itachi's field of vision, then kills him with giant Suiton spam. Or she just layers Futton: Komu no Jutsu on top of the normal mist and waits for the Uchiha's body to decompose till only a bag of bones is left. Even if you gave him the MS, he'd need at least Susano'o v3 to win IMHO. Mist would make Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and even Yasaka Magatama nigh useless though, so Itachi would not win easily at all.


_Sick Itachi vs. Onoki_
*Location: *Sannin Battlefield
*Distance:* 35m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* None
 
I'm favoring Onoki here, as Itachi doesn't have much in the way of useful aerial offenses, and the ones he has displayed aren't anywhere as fast as a super-lightened maximum speed Yondaime Raikage, whom Onoki reacted to by increasing the weight of his punch just before it collided with Madara's Susano'o - so I don't see it being easy for him to tag the Tsuchikage once he's in the air. Genjutsu is worthless at a distance, and the Tsuchikage knows how to avoid being trapped by one anyway, also as demonstrated against Madara. He can even use Iwa Bunshins to avoid being placed under a Genjutsu, either having the clone act as his partner or tricking Itachi into Genjutsuing the Bunshin instead (just like against Kakashi), potentially leaving him open to a fatal move.

Onoki's weight control techniques could be a real problem for Itachi, as he managed to somehow tag five of Madara's Susano'o clones and immobilize them all by making them too heavy to move. I'm pretty sure it won't be anywhere as difficult for him to do likewise against just one Susano'o being utilized by a sick, dying Itachi. Onoki can then proceed to drop a giant Jinton cube right on top of Itachi and Susano'o, destroying them and leaving them in pieces.



_Edo Itachi vs. Both_
*Location: *War Battlefield
*Distance:* 25m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* Koto
 
To be quite honest, Edo Itachi is only feat-wise superior to his living self in the sense that he can spam his MS techniques now and can regenerate from all kinds of damage done to his body, although he is still being vulnerable to sealing jutsu and the like. The Kages don't seem to have any, but there's nothing stopping Onoki from turning Itachi to stone and breaking him into several pieces after that. Mei's Kirigakure no Jutsu, paired with Onoki's Jinton, could be a fatal combination that would have easily ended Itachi's life for good - Susano'o or no Susano'o. The Uchiha probably won't even see the Jinton coming if he's not able to see it, thanks to Mei's mist. As he begins to regenerate, Onoki quickly turns him to stone and breaks him into pieces with a Doton fist.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 27, 2013)

> Without any sealing jutsu, the Kages should ultimately lose to an Edo Itachi, that's for sure.


They don't need one when Onoki can turn Edo Itachi to stone.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 27, 2013)

It's more likely Itachi would look at Onoki and make him combust into flames.

Onoki knew Madara had mangekyou and he didn't do anything particularly abnormal to combat it. 

Onoki didn't do this or that or fly out of range or clone feint against Madara,a known mangekyou user. 
Similarly, the conclusion that would be reached is he likewise wouldn't do such things against Itachi, a mangekyou user.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 27, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> It's more likely Itachi would look at Onoki and make him combust into flames.
> 
> Onoki knew Madara had mangekyou and he didn't do anything particularly abnormal to combat it.
> 
> ...


Your comparing how Onoki fought with 4 other Kage allies and Ei to ride around on to how he would fight solo. And you don't see anything wrong with this?


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 27, 2013)

Your point would be valid if it was concerning how he countered genjutsu.

With 4 kage partners, he can be lax because they can break him out.

How would 4 other kage allies possibly change Amaterasu being used on Onoki though?

Walking dead is on so ..afk abit.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 27, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Your point would be valid if it was concerning how he countered genjutsu.
> 
> With 4 kage partners, he can be lax because they can break him out.
> 
> ...


Oh come on the fact that you have 4 Kage allies is going to effect every way you handle the match, not just genjutsu.  Have you even considered the fact that if Onoki didn't have allies he may use Iwa-bushin to counter Genjutsu, which in doing so would also make Amaterasu harder to land as well.

Beyond that Onoki was on the ground because he needed to be where the Kages were to combo with them and aid them if necessary. He can't just fly off and not be there. Therefore his entire strategy and approach to the battle was based around having 4 Kage allies. So it's completely ridiculous to try and extrapolate how Onoki would act in a 1v1 scenario by how he acted in a 5v1 scenario.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Sure, but anyone making a match with Naruto or a clone starting in SM, would also acknowledge they are giving the advantage of prior prep. You keep refusing to acknowledge this advantage.


No it's not giving naruto's SM clone anymore of an advantage than sandaime raikage having the advantage of the match starting when they are 100 minus meters away from each other.  



Turrin said:


> How useful the knowledge is, is irrelevant, yeah okay whatever bro.


It's not in the context of this comparison.  If oonoki is given the same knowledge that naruto is given and is not able to decipher a weakness or be as efficient with it as naruto is, then it's oonoki's fault not naruto's nor is it giving naruto some kind of advantage over oonoki.



Turrin said:


> That exactly what portrayal is taking into account feats and hype.


No, portrayal is strictly hype, I explained it in an earlier post, go reread it and counter that explanation if you feel differently.



Turrin said:


> You do realize there was more to my post than simply this assertion, where I did go into a feat based comparison. This was one part of a whole.


Well, then I will feel free to call you out on your use of magic in later posts.



Turrin said:


> I have no clue what your trying to say here.


sorry, when i edit my posts it sometimes gets scrambled like that.  What I meant to say is that if madara doesn't use what itachi uses or can use against oonoki then oonoki doing that against madara doesn't mean anything unless you show how it would apply to itachi's capabilities.



Turrin said:


> Wait your saying Jinton couldn't vaporize Haguki? What durability feats does Haguki have that suggests it's tanking Jinton?


I'm not asserting that jinton couldn't vaporize hakugeki.  The burden of proof is on you to argue that jinton can both be prepped and fired in response to seeing hakugeki for the first time and that it will destroy hakugeki.



Turrin said:


> And I said they couldn't where?


Which means that you have to admit that PIS exists in the manga or that oonoki wouldn't opt to do it as well.



Turrin said:


> You seem to be arguing that Susano'o blocks everything bad. But it didn't block the harmful sound waves of Haguki, only allowing innocuous sound waves in. In the case of Mei's mist the reason it didn't melt him right away is probably because it took awhile for the air inside Susano'o to start to be displaced by the harmful mist. It's not like I think air just freely flows through Susano'o, probably just a bit of air at a time gets through allowing the user to breath.


Sound is just the vibration of already existing molecules.  So the sound waves going through susanoo wouldn't be sending any bad physical objects into susanoo, it would merely be transmitting the energy between already existing air particles.  So it's still airtight against bad things.  And if it did start to displace the air inside susanoo, then why did the acid never harm sasuke after that panel?  by that logic, the acid that gets through should have steadily grown over time and thus sasuke should have been hit with more and more of it.  

That was the smallest ribcage susanoo in existance, not a V4 armored susanoo that completely surrounds the user.




Turrin said:


> But let's think for a second that it would block the pollen. That would be fine, but there is still a hole in the bottom of Susano'o, and if Itachi is jumping to evade the eruption of FTW that whole will be open for the pollen to get in. Or if Madara knocks Itachi on his back into FTW that whole will still be open to the air.


It doesn't matter if there is a hole in the bottom, the entire susanoo and its insides are surrounded by the aura which blocks out bad things.



Turrin said:


> I think it's pretty obvious Mokuton in general has this ability, but it doesn't really matter as Madara could just shape the Mokuton surrounding Itachi in FTW, into the known chakra absorption variants, if he has to.


mokuton in general does not have that ability, mokuton USERS in general have that ability.

Which absorbing mokuton are you talking about and when was madara ever stated or implied to be capable of performing that technique through flower tree world?  On both occasions when he's used his mass mokuton he hasn't shown anything like that, it's merely mokuton growing outward from a single point destroying whatever is in its path.



Turrin said:


> The second panel shows Hashirama altering the Mokuton that was already grown in the first panel.
> 
> So wait Madara can't use that basic Mokuton skill that Hashirama in his weakened edo state could use, despite him being able to use techniques far beyond that level. Again you are just  reaching for excuses.


um, what panels are you referring to?  Can you link me to that?  And when did hashirama use any absorbing mokuton in those panels?



Turrin said:


> Which did nothing to them.
> 
> 
> If Madara had been serious they would have all been dead long before that combo was pulled out, as Madara would have P-Susano'o'd them to death. So this is kind of pointless to bring up as when discussing any bit of Madara vs the Gokage, we go into that discussion acknowledging he was not serious until he pulled out P-Susano'o.


Sure if madara used PS they'd all been dead, but the point is that he didn't even NEED PS to beat them, all he needed was to take the fight seriously and he'd kill them all with the exact same tactic you're saying he uses to defeat itachi.  



Turrin said:


> The page of the trans?
> Link removed
> 
> 
> That's what you said, so it's not a straw-man. Basically i'm asking you to prove that Amaterasu would not be as effective against the core when combined with B & Naruto's attacks as Magatama.


You straight up accused me of asserting that "amaterasu does not possess any destructive power".  That's obviously a straw man and has nothing to do with me saying that amaterasu would do LESS damage to CT than YM would do in the short amount of time they'd have before getting eaten by the tech.

And sure, I can give you things like amaterasu not even eating through a samurai's armor despite burning it for almost a full chapter.  Which obviously also disproves the notion that "strongest attack" can't vary due to context.



Turrin said:


> Itachi did not say that, so your making shit up and adding it to the text. He said point blank it was his strongest long-range Jutsu.


Yeah he said that in the context of busting chibaku tensei.  If he wasn't moments away from getting eaten by the technique and had all day to let it burn then sure, amaterasu is stronger, but obviously it's not in this case.  amaterasu has been shown to travel as fireballs after the user casts the jutsu, fireballs that continue to travel on a trajectory.  If amaterasu is actually itachi's strongest physical attack, then it still hits chibaku tensei as CT draws the fireballs in with its gravitational pull.  




Turrin said:


> What's more in all other instance you have always complain that we need to see the exact feat. Yet when it comes to Amaterasu, suddenly we don't need to see an actual feat of Amaterasu being used at such a great distance, we're suppose to just accept it, even though in Amaterasu's case it is much more unlikely than other cases your have contested previously, because of Itachi's Magatama statement.


I don't know how this logic contradicts what I've continuously posited.  Amaterasu is explained to hit whatever the user's eye focuses on, if there is an object that is so far away that the sharingan can't properly focus on it, then it's out of the range.  The stated mechanics that they only have to focus on something to hit it with amaterasu, the feats of itachi or sasuke not attempting to use it on an object a further distance away doesn't mean that it can't be done.



Turrin said:


> He would have said Mei + Onoki did it, or Tsunade + Onoki did it, etc... We also are clearly shown the other Gokage are busy dealing with their own Susano'o. Given all this can you honestly say with a straight face that the Susano'o being weight altered as part of a combo attack is as likely as Onoki simply accomplishing it himself. If you can't than you need to ask yourself why are you arguing this point.


Madara would have said oonoki did it if he took advantage of other jutsus or situations that the other kages and susanoos were in in order to successfully weighted rock those susanoos.  The gokage were shown to help each other out with their susanoos.



Turrin said:


> The aura is probably from Onoki drawing out a massive Jinton or just there for artistic flare. Once in a while Kishi drew Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu with sparks in it, does that really mean anything, probably not.


Oonoki's body doesn't radiate an aura from performing a jinton, I don't see why all of a sudden he'd be doing that.  Canonically mystic palm does create an aura, but only in a small sphere around the medics hands, none of that was present in any of the panels tsunade was in.  Adding sparks =/= giving a shinobi a full body aura.



Turrin said:


> Let me ask your something tho. Why would Onoki talk about being low on chakra and because of that this probably being his last shot. If Tsunade was giving Onoki more chakra than he's ever had before:
> tsuchi: I don?t have much chakra left, so consider this is my last attack!\\


this actually works against your point.  If oonoki is low on chakra, and tsunade is there actively healing him (and by your logic restoring his chakra) then there's no reason for him to say that this is his last attack because he's low on chakra since tsunade will just give him more and thus more attacks.

Thus it had to have been tsunade super powering his own jutsu with the technique she used on oonoki. 




Turrin said:


> This talks about medical ninjutsu and how they work:
> Link removed
> 
> There is also a Data-book entry for Shōsen Jutsu specifically floating around the forums that I've read before, but I can't find it at this point.
> ...



thanks



Turrin said:


> Huh!? Math is not my strong suit; I don't think it's kishi's ether


um, this is simple geometry, and unless you have some other way of gauging how long oonoki'd be able to hold it, then the only thing we'd use is math regardless of whether you think it's good or not.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No it's not giving naruto's SM clone anymore of an advantage than sandaime raikage having the advantage of the match starting when they are 100 minus meters away from each other.


What?



> It's not in the context of this comparison. If oonoki is given* the same knowledge* that naruto is given and is not able to decipher a weakness or be as efficient with it as naruto is, then it's oonoki's fault not naruto's nor is it giving naruto some kind of advantage over oonoki.


It wasn't the same knowledge. The knowledge Naruto was given, was specifically about a weakness. None of the knowledge Onoki gained on Madara was specifically about a weakness.



> No, portrayal is strictly hype, I explained it in an earlier post, go reread it and counter that explanation if you feel differently.


Portrayal - "a depiction of someone or something in a work of art or literature."

Both feats and hype work towards how a character is depicted.



> Well, then I will feel free to call you out on your use of magic in later posts.


I have no clue what your talking about here. My point simply was that my post was suppose to be read and understood as a collective I discussed both portrayal and how Onoki's abilities would match Itachi's. These are not suppose to be viewed as separate points, but rather part of a collective that builds off itself.



> sorry, when i edit my posts it sometimes gets scrambled like that. What I meant to say is that if madara doesn't use what itachi uses or can use against oonoki then oonoki doing that against madara doesn't mean anything unless you show how it would apply to itachi's capabilities.


Itachi doesn't use Sharingan & MS
Itachi doesn't use Uchiha Style Katons
Itachi doesn't use Sharingan Genjutsu
Itachi doesn't use Susano'o
etc...

Many of Madara and Itachi's abilities overlap. Does Itachi have some unique abilities, sure, but Madara is still a good comparison to Itachi in many areas.



> I'm not asserting that jinton couldn't vaporize hakugeki. The burden of proof is on you to argue that jinton can both be prepped and fired in response to seeing hakugeki for the first time and that it will destroy hakugeki.


I said Jinton would vaporize Haguki, not that Onoki would get off Jinton in every conceivable scenario in response to Haguki. That was the whole reason I provided other potential counters to Haguki besides Jinton; Doton, Flight, Fuuton, Stone Will, etc... All I was point out is there are other possibility than as you assert Sasuke getting captured, if Onoki was up against Kabuto.



> Which means that you have to admit that PIS exists in the manga or that oonoki wouldn't opt to do it as well.


Or it's a simple matter of Itachi and Sasuke being a different style of fighter than Onoki. Itachi and Sasuke are best in CQC, while Onoki is best at Long-range. Therefore Onoki would be more likely to take to the skies than them. Different fighters, different approaches to the battle.



> Sound is just the vibration of already existing molecules. So the sound waves going through susanoo wouldn't be sending any bad physical objects into susanoo, it would merely be transmitting the energy between already existing air particles. So it's still airtight against bad things.


Just because it's not physical doesn't change the fact that it was a bad thing. BTW Kishi does seem to think Sound waves are physical though since he had Temari blow them away with her Fuuton before.



> And if it did start to displace the air inside susanoo, then why did the acid never harm sasuke after that panel?


This actually hurts your premise and supports mine. If Susano'o was weakened to the point where it was now letting Acid in as you suggest,  the Acid should have harmed Sasuke in successive panels where he didn't power up Susano'o any further:
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

However if like I suggested Susano'o simply lets in a bit of Air at a time, it would make sense that a little bit of acid would have came in and burned Sasuke, but not much. Than it would take more time for more acid to displace more air in Susano'o, hence why he didn't get any more burns.



> by that logic, the acid that gets through should have steadily grown over time and thus sasuke should have been hit with more and more of it.


Not if each time a bit of acid displaces the air it gets absorbed into the skin.



> That was the smallest ribcage susanoo in existance, not a V4 armored susanoo that completely surrounds the user.


If anything a large Susano'o means a large hole at the bottom and easier for air to get in.



> It doesn't matter if there is a hole in the bottom, the entire susanoo and its insides are surrounded by the aura which blocks out bad things.


Yes the hole matters, that exactly how Gaara's Sand attacked Madara and it met zero resistance. We've never seen a non-legged Susano'o block anything from the bottom.



> mokuton in general does not have that ability, mokuton USERS in general have that ability.


I disagree



> Which absorbing mokuton are you talking about and when was madara ever stated or implied to be capable of performing that technique through flower tree world? On both occasions when he's used his mass mokuton he hasn't shown anything like that, it's merely mokuton growing outward from a single point destroying whatever is in its path.


Any Absorbing Mokuton and I don't see why he'd be unable to shape the existing Mokuton into new formations. Again we've seen stuff like this before from Mokuton users.



> um, what panels are you referring to? Can you link me to that? And when did hashirama use any absorbing mokuton in those panels?


This was on a different point remember? The point about Hashirama being able to control the pre-existing Mokuton to wrap around a person and thus be used in the same way as Gaara's sand to throw Itachi out of Susano'o.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 28, 2013)

> Sure if madara used PS they'd all been dead, but the point is that he didn't even NEED PS to beat them, all he needed was to take the fight seriously and he'd kill them all with the exact same tactic you're saying he uses to defeat itachi.


No it wouldn't be the exact same tactic, because he'd be taking things seriously, so the tactic would alter. So essentially:

non-serious Madara's Flower Tree World Combo - Onoki Counters it, but Itachi fails imo
Serious-Madara's flower tree world combo - who knows if Onoki counters it or not, but  he's got a better chance than Itachi who probably isn't countering the non-serious one.



> And sure, I can give you things like amaterasu not even eating through a samurai's armor despite burning it for almost a full chapter. Which obviously also disproves the notion that "strongest attack" can't vary due to context.


Yet you don't consider the combo potential of it with FRS.



> Yeah he said that in the context of busting chibaku tensei. If he wasn't moments away from getting eaten by the technique and had all day to let it burn then sure, amaterasu is stronger, .


Your just making up excuses to ignore cannon at this point. Guy tells you his strongest long-range attack, you argue it's not.



> but obviously it's not in this case. amaterasu has been shown to travel as fireballs after the user casts the jutsu, fireballs that continue to travel on a trajectory. If amaterasu is actually itachi's strongest physical attack, then it still hits chibaku tensei as CT draws the fireballs in with its gravitational pull


Amaterasu does not travel as a fire-ball, that is fanfic.



> I don't know how this logic contradicts what I've continuously posited. Amaterasu is explained to hit whatever the user's eye focuses on, if there is an object that is so far away that the sharingan can't properly focus on it, then it's out of the range. The stated mechanics that they only have to focus on something to hit it with amaterasu, the feats of itachi or sasuke not attempting to use it on an object a further distance away doesn't mean that it can't be done.


Yeah and the problem is we don't know how the focus part works. Does an object need to be a certain distance for the necessary focus to be achieved, it definitely seems that is the case



> Madara would have said oonoki did it if he took advantage of other jutsus or situations that the other kages and susanoos were in in order to successfully weighted rock those susanoos. The gokage were shown to help each other out with their susanoos.


I have no clue what your saying here, but here is the Viz translation of what Madara says:

Madara: "Ohnoki...
His wisdom shows through at last."
(He stopped the Susano'o with his weighted boulder jutsu... and managed to save the Raikage.)

Again Madara is stating it is Onoki who did this shit, not Onoki and another Gokage.



> Oonoki's body doesn't radiate an aura from performing a jinton, I don't see why all of a sudden he'd be doing that. Canonically mystic palm does create an aura, but only in a small sphere around the medics hands, none of that was present in any of the panels tsunade was in. Adding sparks =/= giving a shinobi a full body aura.


We've never seen him use such a large Jinton, so how do we know his body does not generate an aura in that instance? How do we know this auro wasn't just for artistic flare?



> this actually works against your point. If oonoki is low on chakra, and tsunade is there actively healing him (and by your logic restoring his chakra) then there's no reason for him to say that this is his last attack because he's low on chakra since tsunade will just give him more and thus more attacks.
> 
> Thus it had to have been tsunade super powering his own jutsu with the technique she used on oonoki.


What the hell? This is such ridiculously confusing logic your employing, instead of taking the obvious route.

If Onoki states this is his last shot, because he's low on chakra, despite Tsunade being there to restore him or provide chakra for him, whatever. The simplest and only logical explanation of that, is that whatever Tsunade is doing is not enough to fully restore Onoki to 100%, 

Which means Onoki at 100%, would be able to use this Jinton Shot and more. And actually this is supported by the official viz translation:

Ohnoki: "Not much chakra in me left! This could be our last stand!"

By the by, here is the official trans for the who Susano'o thing as well:

Madara: (My Susano'o kept me from absorbing the Particle style properly.)

He doesn't say anything about the future tense as if the clones are still alive within the Jinton. So there goes the evidence supporting the clone weren't instantly vaporized by Jinton.



> um, this is simple geometry, and unless you have some other way of gauging how long oonoki'd be able to hold it, then the only thing we'd use is math regardless of whether you think it's good or not.


There is no way in hell Kishi is thinking in geometric terms how long Onoki can hold Jinton.


----------



## Garcher (Oct 28, 2013)

yata mirror deflects jinton btw.

Itachi still wins


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> What?


What isn't a counterargument.  if you have a specific part that you don't understand then address it and i'll try and clear it up, else you know what ignoring an argument results in.



Turrin said:


> It wasn't the same knowledge. The knowledge Naruto was given, was specifically about a weakness. None of the knowledge Onoki gained on Madara was specifically about a weakness.


The knowledge wasn't about a specific weakness, it was reputation knowledge and knowledge about a past event.  Naruto had to USE that knowledge in order to decipher a weakness, thus oonoki's inability to decipher a weakness despite getting even more knowledge than naruto is oonoki's own fault.



Turrin said:


> Portrayal - "a depiction of someone or something in a work of art or literature."
> 
> Both feats and hype work towards how a character is depicted.


How exactly does your definition of portrayal mean that feats are being used?  



Turrin said:


> Itachi doesn't use Sharingan & MS
> Itachi doesn't use Uchiha Style Katons
> Itachi doesn't use Sharingan Genjutsu
> Itachi doesn't use Susano'o
> ...


They have similaritiesi n their skillsets, however if there exists differences and madara doesn't use what itachi can use, the obviously the statement that "if he can do it against madara, he can do it against itachi" wouldn't apply and you'd have to go into how what he did to madara would translate to how he handles itachi.



Turrin said:


> I said Jinton would vaporize Haguki, not that Onoki would get off Jinton in every conceivable scenario in response to Haguki. That was the whole reason I provided other potential counters to Haguki besides Jinton; Doton, Flight, Fuuton, Stone Will, etc... All I was point out is there are other possibility than as you assert Sasuke getting captured, if Onoki was up against Kabuto.


Well, do you see onooki performing those techniques in response to hakugeki being used?  If not, my point stands that sasuke gets captured if oonoki is swapt with itachi.



Turrin said:


> Or it's a simple matter of Itachi and Sasuke being a different style of fighter than Onoki. Itachi and Sasuke are best in CQC, while Onoki is best at Long-range. Therefore Onoki would be more likely to take to the skies than them. Different fighters, different approaches to the battle.


Oonoki doesn't always fight in the air, in fact the only times he fought in the air was when he was up against opponents who could also fly themselves.   And since you agree itachi and sasuke could bust the cave and fight outside, then logically they would have done so after hakugeki was used in order to stop the technique from happening again.  So no, unless you agree PIS exists, then oonoki doesn't bust the cave and fly outside even after hakugeki is used.



Turrin said:


> Just because it's not physical doesn't change the fact that it was a bad thing. BTW Kishi does seem to think Sound waves are physical though since he had Temari blow them away with her Fuuton before.






Turrin said:


> This actually hurts your premise and supports mine. If Susano'o was weakened to the point where it was now letting Acid in as you suggest,  the Acid should have harmed Sasuke in successive panels where he didn't power up Susano'o any further:
> chakra
> chakra
> chakra
> ...


the bolded makes zero sense, which is why the unbolded isn't true.  If the acid that is absorbed by sasuke's skin is replaced by acid in the ribcage then by that logic sasuke should be taking constant damage from the acid, yet that does not happen, he takes none, and thus the assertion that it lets in small quantities of air in is false.  

The unbolded is easily explained by sasuke probably adding more chakra to his susanoo's aura or pulling his arm closer to his body in response to his arm getting burned.



Turrin said:


> If anything a large Susano'o means a large hole at the bottom and easier for air to get in.
> 
> Yes the hole matters, that exactly how Gaara's Sand attacked Madara and it met zero resistance. We've never seen a non-legged Susano'o block anything from the bottom.


Gaara's sand had to be lightened and has much more physical force packed behind itself which is why it can bypass the aura.  We've already seen that the aura possesses defensive properties when tsunade put cracks in the aura



Turrin said:


> I disagree


would you like to support that with some kind of argument?  If not, then you know what it means.



Turrin said:


> Any Absorbing Mokuton and I don't see why he'd be unable to shape the existing Mokuton into new formations. Again we've seen stuff like this before from Mokuton users.


Don't make me have to back you into a corner.  STATE the absorbing mokuton and STATE how madara's abilities would allow him to utilize pre-existing mokuton in order to do that.  And what other mokuton users have shaped pre-existing mokutons and to what extent?  



Turrin said:


> This was on a different point remember? The point about Hashirama being able to control the pre-existing Mokuton to wrap around a person and thus be used in the same way as Gaara's sand to throw Itachi out of Susano'o.


Well, show madara has that ability, and show that he has that ability to the extent of restraining a V4 susanoo while rendering the susanoo unable to counterattack.  Hell, if you give him this ability, then you have to try and argue how the real gokage deal with that.  If madara uses that on them, oonoki never gets to stone will himself out of sleep, he and his 4 homedogs get ripped to shreds or strangled in their sleep.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No it wouldn't be the exact same tactic, because he'd be taking things seriously, so the tactic would alter. So essentially:
> 
> non-serious Madara's Flower Tree World Combo - Onoki Counters it, but Itachi fails imo
> Serious-Madara's flower tree world combo - who knows if Onoki counters it or not, but  he's got a better chance than Itachi who probably isn't countering the non-serious one.


But why is the non-serious madara using an ability against itachi that would denote madara being serious against oonoki?  If madara doing that with his mokuton is defined as non-serious, then he does that against oonoki and he along with the others die.  I can't see what you've just stated as anything but a double standard.



Turrin said:


> Yet you don't consider the combo potential of it with FRS.


1) Naruto didn't consider it
2) by feats I wouldn't consider it either.  The enton FRS in both instances it was used wasn't implied to be super powerful due to its explosive ability or instantaneous damage, but due to the enormous scale of the jutsu and the hax of enton being inextinguishable flames that will continue to burn until sasuke tells it not to.  In the context of the chibaku tensei ball, it wouldn't have been a good idea to use that instead of YM as it would have done even less immediate damage as FRS's wind sphere does and the flames would barely destroy any rock before the trio were sucked in considering entons feats.



Turrin said:


> Your just making up excuses to ignore cannon at this point. Guy tells you his strongest long-range attack, you argue it's not.


Unless you dispute the reasoning for it being in the context of that instance, then it's you ignoring my argument.



Turrin said:


> Amaterasu does not travel as a fire-ball, that is fanfic.


*Well tell me what you see here in that scan.*  Is amaterasu still a short ranged technique?



Turrin said:


> Yeah and the problem is we don't know how the focus part works. Does an object need to be a certain distance for the necessary focus to be achieved, it definitely seems that is the case


that's basically what I've just stated.



Turrin said:


> I have no clue what your saying here, but here is the Viz translation of what Madara says:
> 
> Madara: "Ohnoki...
> His wisdom shows through at last."
> ...


again, that doesn't mean that oonoki didn't use circumstances provided by the other kages or the other susanoo clones to his advantage in order to pull that off, circumstances that would not be present in a 1 vs 1 fight.  So you'd have to argue it by feats since we didn't see how he did that.



Turrin said:


> We've never seen him use such a large Jinton, so how do we know his body does not generate an aura in that instance? How do we know this auro wasn't just for artistic flare?


well, can you show other people in other instances producing an aura because they used a super giant technique comparable to oonoki and his cube?



Turrin said:


> What the hell? This is such ridiculously confusing logic your employing, instead of taking the obvious route.
> 
> If Onoki states this is his last shot, because he's low on chakra, despite Tsunade being there to restore him or provide chakra for him, whatever. The simplest and only logical explanation of that, is that whatever Tsunade is doing is not enough to fully restore Onoki to 100%,
> 
> ...


I don't see whats confusing about my logic or that your is the obvious route.  Oonoki stating its his last technique despite tsunade being able to restore his chakra needs an explanation.  The explanation that tsunade isn't restoring him to 100% is illogical because she's restored him many times in the fight before and oonoki doesn't need to be anywhere close to 100% in order to use jintons.  

The most logical explanation is that tsunade ampliefied his own attack using her chakra, thus his low chakra would have been taken into account as actually meaning something in regards to his ability to attack.



Turrin said:


> By the by, here is the official trans for the who Susano'o thing as well:
> 
> Madara: (My Susano'o kept me from absorbing the Particle style properly.)
> 
> He doesn't say anything about the future tense as if the clones are still alive within the Jinton. So there goes the evidence supporting the clone weren't instantly vaporized by Jinton.


That's the VIZ translation?  Can you link me to it so I know it's actually official? 




Turrin said:


> There is no way in hell Kishi is thinking in geometric terms how long Onoki can hold Jinton.


what?  Of course kishi is thinking geometry, the size of jinton obviously denotes how much chakra it takes up, how do you determine the size of a cube?  GEOMETRY.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi defeats Mei with mid difficulty. She might take more of his time than Orochimaru or Deidara, but I wouldn't expect her to do alot better either.


LOL. She don't have to do much just use 1 technique and not even MS Itachi can counter, so how do you expect Itachi to counter the acid-mist? Itachi don't have shit to counter it. Susanoo wont' even do.





> Sick Itachi vs Onoki would be somewhat of a close fight but I'd still say that Itachi would trump Onoki more often than not. While Itachi's sickness is a huge handicap, Onoki has his back problems. In a solo match, Onoki might just strain himself a bit too much and he'll find himself in a very shitty situation.


 Onooki stomps Itachi, especially sick Itachi. Itachi's only hope is genjutsu...to bad that not even Madara or any other Uchiha was able to capture him in a genjutsu...I think Madara did when Onoki was young. Golems, clones, jinton, dotons are just to much. IC Onooki goes for the vaporization first thing, Itachi preserves his MS until he is forced to use it. Plus at 35m gives On the advantage .





> Edo Itachi should take em both. Manga knowledge would equal the playing ground a little bit but Itachi is still an overall superior fighter, he is smarter and quicker.


Can you please show me a scan or page that indicates Itachi has above average battle tactics. Just because he knows calculus doesn't mean that he knows military style tactics.


And of course Edo itachi will win against 2 opponents that don't have any way to effectively seal anyone, but Onooki and Mei will kill him a couple of time...Actually Mei could win just by disintegrating Itachi with Edo Tensei and just keep destroying him as he heals thus never fully healing because the damage must stop being applied so that the regeneration can kick in.

So I give it to Mei and Onooki by submission(first time ever) due to they can keep destroying Itachi over and over, and stunting the regeneration of Edo Tensei.


1. Mei 10/10
2. Onooki 8/10 mid diff.
3. MO- 10/10 by submission.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 28, 2013)

> Oh come on the fact that you have 4 Kage allies is going to effect every way you handle the match, not just genjutsu. Have you even considered the fact that if Onoki didn't have allies he may use Iwa-bushin to counter Genjutsu, which in doing so would also make Amaterasu harder to land as well.


None of the kages, including Onoki, did anything preventative to keep themselves alive against the mangekyou when they were fighting clones they _knew_ for a fact had mangekyou jutsu. Onoki didn't make any clones when he was fighting 5 susanoo clones, he didn't even make a clone before entering Sasuke's Amaterasu range back at the kage summit. 

Why would he make clones against Itachi when he didn't in either of those circumstance? Onoki has literally only used clones like once, in a circumstantial match up against Muu who was invisible+could snipe. Yet for some reason he is going to be OOC and use clones against Itachi.



> Beyond that Onoki was on the ground because he needed to be where the Kages were to combo with them and aid them if necessary. He can't just fly off and not be there. Therefore his entire strategy and approach to the battle was based around having 4 Kage allies. So it's completely ridiculous to try and extrapolate how Onoki would act in a 1v1 scenario by how he acted in a 5v1 scenario.


Onoki has never flown off super far away during battle. He doesn't even like that style of battle and berated Deidara for fighting like that [1].Also,  All of the 5 kage were relatively far away from each other when they fought those 5 susanoo.

Let's just look at Onoki's battle history.

Onoki fought
Kage Summit Sasuke briefly
Deidara
Muu
Trollkage
Madara

Onoki has *never* fought outside someone's range, and he has only ever used clones once, ever.

That one time Onoki used clones, against Muu, was not even in a feinting matter since he blatantly made them in clear view.

Yet he's going to do all these OOC things he never does when he fights Itachi. I'm trying to make sense of how that conclusion can possibly be reached.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Oct 28, 2013)

^^You're ignoring his points. Everything you said does not supersede  the fact that he was fighting with 4 kages. Team fighting is not going to be the same as individual fighting. You are also neglecting to realize that the majority of the fight against the clones was OFF PANEL. We saw the beginning and the end. That's it. Also worth mentioning he got the jump on a half dead Uchiha who was holding his face. He made a judgement call that he could attack before he used amaterasu. Oonoki was correct.

And for the record, it is not OOC if someone has used it in the manga. He used 6-7 clones. It is not OOC. He also used a bunshin feint against Deidara. It isn't OOC. He clearly attempted to fight from mid-long range against a variety of shinobi. Muu, Madara, Nidaime Mizukage, Deidara. In just about all of his battles whether team or not, he tries to stay away and attack. Do you want me to show you the scans? Cause I truly don't mind.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't see itachi losing any scenario the guy is a genjutsu master . Once he points his finger at them he wins . While they're in genjutsu for that minute he already has a shadow clone ready to kill them. In scenario 3 he wins mid diff infinite sasunoo+ Amaterasu  they stand no chance


----------



## Turrin (Oct 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> What isn't a counterargument.  if you have a specific part that you don't understand then address it and i'll try and clear it up, else you know what ignoring an argument results in.


I didn't understand any of it. 



> The knowledge wasn't about a specific weakness, it was reputation knowledge and knowledge about a past event. Naruto had to USE that knowledge in order to decipher a weakness, thus oonoki's inability to decipher a weakness despite getting even more knowledge than naruto is oonoki's own fault.



_plus the tough flesh that can endure any technique\\ will become the strongest shield\\
 is he even a human being? That old man I mean\\
they said that he was the only shinobi capable to compete with a bijuu in regards of flesh toughness\\
these raikages are incredible\\
16
eh!!?\\
whats wrong!?\\
in that case what the meaning of this!?\\
what!?\\
come on.. that\\
that scar on his chest!\\
if his body is the strongest shield how did he receive that!?\\
The rasen shuriken did not even leave a scratch and yet!!\\
 that huh\\
once it happened that the third said to the others to flee while he stopped the hachibi going wild all by himself\\
he received that wound at that occasion\\
_

Dodai and Naruto are specifically talking about weakness in Raikage's "ultimate-shield" (or toughness), I.E. how he got the scar. 

how did you infer that wound on the old raikages chest!?\\
eh!?\\
 wasnt it my bijuu sphere?\\
no I wonder how I did\\
we used up all our strengths until we collapsed in front of each other while still holding our techniques\\
I dont remember much of what happened\\
10
 maybe\\
11
thanks hachibi!!

Naruto and Hachibi are specifically talking about weakness in Raikage's "ultimate-shield" (or toughness), I.E. how he got the scar.

Yes ultimately Naruto is the one to use the intel that Dodai and Hachibi gave him about the incident when Sandaime relieved his scar, to figure out how the scar happened. But all the intel Naruto was given, was specifically about an existent weakness of the Raikage's "Ultimate Shield". 

So I'm not saying someone has to come out and tell Onoki Madara's weakness. It would be fine if someone had given Onoki intel specifically relating to a weakness and Onoki had to ultimately solve the puzzle like Naruto. But Onoki was never given any intel that was highlight as Madara's weakness. Heck Kishi around the time of the Gokage battle came right out and said Madara has no weaknesses in an interview:

_Question: The legendary ninja is now immortal, does Madara Uchiha have any weakness?
Kishimoto-sensei: All people, even the strongest ones, have weaknesses, however, Madara does not. So we have to pose the question, where and how will the battle go from here!? Please stay excited and wait with eager anticipation to find out!!_

So according to Kishimoto it wouldn't even be possible for Onoki to receive intel germane to a weakness of Madara's, because Madara has none. 

That's how incomparable these two scenario's and types of intel are.



> How exactly does your definition of portrayal mean that feats are being used?


Because feats are part of how a character is depicted in the manga. They are an aspect that describes parts of the character; in this case that character's abilities, strength, etc..



> They have similaritiesi n their skillsets, however if there exists differences and madara doesn't use what itachi can use,


I never once said their skill sets are identical. I said their skillets are similar and beyond the similarities Madara is the vastly superior Uchiha.



> the obviously the statement that "if he can do it against madara, he can do it against itachi" wouldn't apply and you'd have to go into how what he did to madara would translate to how he handles itachi.


Depends what were talking about. For example if Onoki can manage to defeat all 5 of Madara's Clones while they are using EMS-Stage-3-Susano'o; later 25. It seems doubtful that Itachi's Susano'o is an issue for Onoki in this battle. 

If Onoki is able to avoid being Sharingan Genjutsu'd by 5 Madara clones with 10 eyes between that Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is going to be an issue. Finger-Gen and potentially Crow-Gen, not included, because they are different Genjutsu methods than anything Madara has displayed.

If Onoki is able to counter a massive scale elemental combo like Flower-Tree-World and Massive Katon, It seems doubtful that Itachi's elemental Jutsu are going to be an issue for Onoki, sans a more subtle type like Suiton: Suigadan.

Ruling out some things as unlikely to work, than allows for closer examination on stuff that might work, which is when we go into feats. 



> Well, do you see onooki performing those techniques in response to hakugeki being used? If not, my point stands that sasuke gets captured if oonoki is swapt with itachi.


Yes I can see all of these techniques working, depending on how Onoki reacts to SM Kabuto going to use a Jutsu, which is really the question here. The stone will thing I could see working and I could see not working; I'd have to ask Kishi, since the whole will thing confuses the shit out of me, as to when it does, and doesn't work.

So basically again all i'm saying is that I could see it going ether way. It's not my obligation to prove how it would go, because I'm honestly not sure. However your saying it would certainly go one-way, so since you are sure Sasuke would get captured, I think it's perfectly fair that I ask for your evidence that proves w/o a shadow of a doubt that Sasuke would indeed get capture.



> Oonoki doesn't always fight in the air, in fact the only times he fought in the air was when he was up against opponents who could also fly themselves.


Onoki has gone to skies in every battle except when he has had mass allies to combo with. The pattern is pretty clear.  You can say well his enemies can use flight, but what does that prove, when Onoki was not shown using flight only when his enemies did, rather he was the one who starts the battle with flight, rather than them. 



> And since you agree itachi and sasuke could bust the cave and fight outside, then logically they would have done so after hakugeki was used in order to stop the technique from happening again. So no, unless you agree PIS exists, then oonoki doesn't bust the cave and fly outside even after hakugeki is used.


Why would busting the cave help with Haguki? With Onoki and Sasuke it helps because they can fly out of Haguki's range, but Itachi and Sasuke don't have flight. Again it's different fighting styles. 

Also your not going to get me to say that Itachi or Sasuke had PIS, when they dealt with everything Kabuto had to dish out in the cave and won that battle, by fighting the way that they did. So how can they be stupid if they won? 



> the bolded makes zero sense, which is why the unbolded isn't true. If the acid that is absorbed by sasuke's skin is replaced by acid in the ribcage then by that logic sasuke should be taking constant damage from the acid, yet that does not happen, he takes none, and thus the assertion that it lets in small quantities of air in is false.


Why would the Acid absorbed by the skin be instantly replaced with more Acid?



> The unbolded is easily explained by sasuke probably adding more chakra to his susanoo's aura or pulling his arm closer to his body in response to his arm getting burned.


There was no sign or indication of this whatsoever, tho.



> Gaara's sand had to be lightened and has much more physical force packed behind itself which is why it can bypass the aura.


You just said the sand was lightened so it would pack much less force and it's not like we saw the Sand struggle and break through, it met zero resistance. 



> We've already seen that the aura possesses defensive properties when tsunade put cracks in the aura


This was not from the underneath the bottom



> would you like to support that with some kind of argument? If not, then you know what it means.


It's called the argument of common-sense and I already appealed to that, but if we want to ignore common-sense than naw, I won't bother.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 28, 2013)

> Don't make me have to back you into a corner. STATE the absorbing mokuton and STATE how madara's abilities would allow him to utilize pre-existing mokuton in order to do that. And what other mokuton users have shaped pre-existing mokutons and to what extent? ]


Dude it's right in the DB entry for Mokuton. Mokuton creates trees and than these trees can be altered to be used for other Mokuton attacks and defenses, that's exactly what is sad in the basic description of Mokuton.

DBIII, _"With the "Kekkei Genkai" allowing the simultaneous use of the basic chakra natures "Earth Release" and "Water Release," plants and trees are created. The transformation of these displays a tremendous power in both offence and defence."_

There is plenty examples of this too. Yamato transmuting the pre-existing wood of the house into an ensnaring attack on Obito:


Right here we see Yamato using Mokuton to create wood and than shaping it into houses:


Etc...

As for the chakra absorbing techniques I'm talking about, it could be anyone of them. Yamato's KGOD, but let's just go with Madara's Mokuton Dragon since we've directly seen him use that before. 

crouched over Kurama and Final Stage Susano'o from Madara.



> Well, show madara has that ability, and show that he has that ability to the extent of restraining a V4 susanoo while rendering the susanoo unable to counterattack. Hell, if you give him this ability, then you have to try and argue how the real gokage deal with that. If madara uses that on them, oonoki never gets to stone will himself out of sleep, he and his 4 homedogs get ripped to shreds or strangled in their sleep.


The ability is Flower Tree World. Madara would extend the Mokuton produced from it to swarm Susnao'o, just like we saw Hashirama do with his Mokuton Birth of Trees against Hiruzen.

He had the ability against the Gokage, however Onoki simply recovered and pulled out Jinton blowing away the Mokuton too quickly for Madara to use it. 

Itachi does not have something that can blow away all the Mokuton so quickly like Jinton. 



> But why is the non-serious madara using an ability against itachi that would denote madara being serious against oonoki? If madara doing that with his mokuton is defined as non-serious, then he does that against oonoki and he along with the others die. I can't see what you've just stated as anything but a double standard.


I never said Madara was using an ability that he would denote as serious against Onoki. 

The reason Madara's actions may differ against Itachi is because Itachi's himself differs from Onoki. Though the only things I've cited is swarming with Mokuton and pollen both of which he did use against the Gokage. We see Madara' Mokuton swarming them here:
crouched over Kurama and Final Stage Susano'o from Madara.

He didn't do a secondary swarm as he may against Itachi, but that was because again Onoki blasted away all of the Mokuton too quickly with Jinton and Itachi does not have something like that.



> 1) Naruto didn't consider it


I'm pretty sure Itachi is intelligent enough to consider it. If Naruto did not.



> 2) by feats I wouldn't consider it either. The enton FRS in both instances it was used wasn't implied to be super powerful due to its explosive ability or instantaneous damage, but due to the enormous scale of the jutsu and the hax of enton being inextinguishable flames that will continue to burn until sasuke tells it not to. In the context of the chibaku tensei ball, it wouldn't have been a good idea to use that instead of YM as it would have done even less immediate damage as FRS's wind sphere does and the flames would barely destroy any rock before the trio were sucked in considering entons feats.


Wait the massive amount of flames generated by Fuuton Rasenshuriken combined with Amaterasu wouldn't do enough immediate damage to core as Magatama, I would really like some proof of that assertion. I mean it's not like Magatama has some uber impressive feats of immediate damage in the manga.



> Unless you dispute the reasoning for it being in the context of that instance, then it's you ignoring my argument.


Context does not invalidate a statement as your trying to assert. Yes the context was they were going to blow up CT, but the fact that Itachi said they were going to use their most powerful long-range Jutsu, means, that the two things are not mutually exclusive. Itachi's best long-range Jutsu is also the one that would be most effective against CT. That's all the context tells us.

It does not tell us, Well Itachi did say Magatama was his most powerful long-range Jutsu, but hey let's just pretend that instead he really said, he was going to use his best Jutsu against CT. You can't just manipulate the text like that, to suit your argument. 

If Kishi didn't want us to see Magatama as Itachi's most powerful Long-range Jutsu he would not have had Itachi make the statement that way, again it is as simple as that.



> Well tell me what you see here in that scan. Is amaterasu still a short ranged technique?.


I see Itachi moving his head following Sasuke and lighting everything on fire within the point of his vision he's focusing on,  while he moves his head. Thus lighting everything on fire in a line towards Sasuke. Nor is there even any shred of evidence for a fire-ball in the manga. 



> that's basically what I've just stated.


Yes and I agreed with you, but what you and I said, means that the mechanic of Amaterasu does not state that he can hit targets at such a great distance, because we don't know if those targets would be within the range were he could accurately focus on them. So Amaterasu's mechanics do not state it can hit a target at the range of  flying Onoki or CT, for sure. And with no feats to support it and Itachi's magatama statement making it counter intuitive to expect Amaterasu to work at that range, I really see zero evidence that Itachi could use an Amaterasu at that range.



> again, that doesn't mean that oonoki didn't use circumstances provided by the other kages or the other susanoo clones to his advantage in order to pull that off, circumstances that would not be present in a 1 vs 1 fight. So you'd have to argue it by feats since we didn't see how he did that.


Again Madara would have not credited solely Onoki. I'm getting tired of you reaching for the 1% chance, instead of going with what is by far the obvious conclusion. I'm also getting tired of your extreme double standards where you don't have to show on panel feats of Itachi using Amaterasu at extreme-long-range despite it being counter intuitive that it he can. Yet I have to show panels of Onoki not combing with the kages to land weight alteration despite it being intuitive that Onoki did it on his own do to Madara's statement and the other Gokage dealing with their own shit at the time.

I mean this is starting to become ridiculously unfair conditions for discussion.



> well, can you show other people in other instances producing an aura because they used a super giant technique comparable to oonoki and his cube?


Of course not because Onoki is the only one to ever use that large of a Jinton and only in that instance. And again you ignore my point about it simply being artistic flare like how Kishi sometimes drew bolts of electricity through Tsunade's Shosen and it was also meaningless.



> I don't see whats confusing about my logic or that your is the obvious route. Oonoki stating its his last technique despite tsunade being able to restore his chakra needs an explanation. The explanation that tsunade isn't restoring him to 100% is illogical because she's restored him many times in the fight before and oonoki doesn't need to be anywhere close to 100% in order to use jintons.
> 
> The most logical explanation is that tsunade ampliefied his own attack using her chakra, thus his low chakra would have been taken into account as actually meaning something in regards to his ability to attack.


See I still not sure what you mean, but I'll try and respond:  

Tsunade not being able to restore him fully at this point in the battle makes perfect sense, because she was also low on chakra at this point, as proven when she ran out shortly thereafter and had to be recharged by Dan.

Rather if Tsunade could restore Onoki completely or boost him further there would be no point in Onoki mentioning his own chakra limitations, because Tsunade was about to restore him and give him more regardless. 



> hat's the VIZ translation? Can you link me to it so I know it's actually official?


What do you think I'm lying lol. I can't give you a link to the actual scans, because I don't have them. I got the trans from Blink ST who has the Official Viz and shares the translations with the forums. Here's a link to his post:


Now I got Takl's translation of that line as; _maddy to himself: with susanoOs being put out, it was too late to absorb the jinton._

In Takl's translation it is straight up past tense, which implies the Clones were obliterated already, which actually not only denies the future tense argument, but supports the instant obliteration argument.



> what? Of course kishi is thinking geometry, the size of jinton obviously denotes how much chakra it takes up, how do you determine the size of a cube? GEOMETRY.


LOL, come on dude, you seriously think Kishi is sitting at his desk doing geometric equations to figure out how exactly big of a Jinton Onoki can use and how long he can use it. Dream on buddy.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

Oonoki doesn't even have a counter to Amaterasu, so he's dead once Itachi decides to use that.

Lol, Mei.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Three scenarios:
> 
> 
> _Base Itachi vs. Mei_
> ...




Mei wins. Kirigakure no Jutsu eliminates all of Itachi's advantages, blinds him and his only option will be to get out of the mist before Mei can hit him with one of her massively powerful Suitons or Yoton's. Itachi is also vulnerable to Fuuton while in the mist, which he won't expect since he only has manga knowledge. Thus he'll end up melting within it while being unable to fight Mei inside it.



> [*]_Sick Itachi vs. Onoki_
> 
> 
> *Location: *Sannin Battlefield
> ...


Onoki wins. He takes flight at this distance and starts blasting away with Jinton. Itachi's only option would be Susano'o in an attempt to defend himself, but Jinton can blow through a massive ignited forest and Susano'o itself even, it won't provide much help. Yasaka Magatama or Amaterasu can be guarded by Onoki's massive Doton Golems. In other words, Onoki wins.



> [*]_Edo Itachi vs. Both_
> 
> 
> *Location: *War Battlefield
> ...



Team Kage wins. Mei lays out her mist to blind Itachi thus preventing him from hitting either as Onoki takes to the air. Itachi forms his Susano'o to guard as Mei keeps him busy by blasting him with lava and melting it with her acid mist. Waiting for Onoki's signal she then launches Itachi in his Susano'o right at Onoki who blasts him point blank with a Jinton. While he's recovering Onoki then immobilzes him completely so he can be sealed.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 28, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> ^^You're ignoring his points. Everything you said does not supersede  the fact that he was fighting with 4 kages. Team fighting is not going to be the same as individual fighting. You are also neglecting to realize that the majority of the fight against the clones was OFF PANEL. We saw the beginning and the end. That's it. Also worth mentioning he got the jump on a half dead Uchiha who was holding his face. He made a judgement call that he could attack before he used amaterasu. Oonoki was correct.


 And if he wasn't there the Kages would've been fucked at 'go'. Still doesn't deny the fact that he was able 5 Susanoo clones at once, may have been off panel, but we know for a fact that Madara sent 5 mokuton clones cloaked in Susanoo(a higher degree then of Itachi's) to fight each kage individually.Still Amaterasu must be prepped then fired, Onooki blitzd Sasuke.





> And for the record, it is not OOC if someone has used it in the manga. He used 6-7 clones. It is not OOC. He also used a bunshin feint against Deidara. It isn't OOC. He clearly attempted to fight from mid-long range against a variety of shinobi. Muu, Madara, Nidaime Mizukage, Deidara. In just about all of his battles whether team or not, he tries to stay away and attack. Do you want me to show you the scans? Cause I truly don't mind.


Deidara-Long Range
Madara- Proficient in all ranges.
Nidaime- Long rang
Muu- Proficient in all ranges.

Every opponent he fought at was range due to them having proficiency in close quarters or long range attacks.

You can't take the knowledge that Onooki has on Uchiha's, he has none on Itachi, but unless OP states otherwise. And once Onooki does see that he is fighting a Uchiha he is going to increase the distance as quick as possible.



And to everyone that says  " Mei...lol", I have yet to see anyone attempt to give a solid argument to why Mei doesn't win. I even gave him MS in the scenario I typed up because I fear that Itachi will be at to much of a disadvantage(or atleast a tad bit more than the disadvantage he is already at).


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 28, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Onoki wins. He takes flight at this distance and starts blasting away with Jinton. Itachi's only option would be Susano'o in an attempt to defend himself, but Jinton can blow through a massive ignited forest and Susano'o itself even, it won't provide much help. Yasaka Magatama or Amaterasu can be guarded by Onoki's massive Doton Golems. In other words, Onoki wins.



...Or Itachi can just dodge Jinton at 35m, and hit Oonoki with Amaterasu the second he closes the distance to try to improve his accuracy.



> Team Kage wins. Mei lays out her mist to blind Itachi thus preventing him from hitting either as Onoki takes to the air. Itachi forms his Susano'o to guard as Mei keeps him busy by blasting him with lava and melting it with her acid mist. Waiting for Onoki's signal she then launches Itachi in his Susano'o right at Onoki who blasts him point blank with a Jinton. While he's recovering Onoki then immobilzes him completely so he can be sealed.



If Mei has used Kirigakure, how will Oonoki be able to target Itachi?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I didn't understand any of it.


Is starting distance a stipulation in a matchup?




Turrin said:


> _plus the tough flesh that can endure any technique\\ will become the strongest shield\\
> is he even a human being? That old man I mean\\
> they said that he was the only shinobi capable to compete with a bijuu in regards of flesh toughness\\
> these raikages are incredible\\
> ...


How is talking about how he got the scar talking about a weakness?  The scar simply denotes that there is an attack that is powerful enough to hurt the guy, it doesn't denote a weakness, just a limitation of his armor and his durability.



Turrin said:


> how did you infer that wound on the old raikages chest!?\\
> eh!?\\
> wasnt it my bijuu sphere?\\
> no I wonder how I did\\
> ...


none of the information naruto was given had to do with a "weakness" in his armor, as positing how he got the scar has nothing to do with him having a weakness, the only thing it deals with is the limitations of the armor.

The "weakness" would come in when sandaime wields the particular technique that did actually damage himself that way.

And thus the rest of your post doesn't apply as naruto had to use he knowledge he had in order to find that weakeness, none of the intel he'd been given were about discussing the weakness of sandaime, only the limitations and what would be strong enough to break it.

Madara was stated to have no weakness, NOT his clones and we've seen several times that weaknesses had arisen such as his inability to use preta after using susanoo, ability to get pulled out of susanoo, inability to block physical attacks with preta path, susanoo's weakness to weighted rocks and jinton being the perfect counter to the absolute defense.  Then there's exploiting weaknesses of doujutsu like using hidden mist to block his LoS.





Turrin said:


> Because feats are part of how a character is depicted in the manga. They are an aspect that describes parts of the character; in this case that character's abilities, strength, etc..


Standalone feats aren't a feat-based argument, that's just hype.  a featbased argument or arguing using feats is comparing the abilities of characters directly against one another and seeing how those abilities stack up.



Turrin said:


> I never once said their skill sets are identical. I said their skillets are similar and beyond the similarities Madara is the vastly superior Uchiha.
> 
> Depends what were talking about. For example if Onoki can manage to defeat all 5 of Madara's Clones while they are using EMS-Stage-3-Susano'o; later 25. It seems doubtful that Itachi's Susano'o is an issue for Onoki in this battle.


Why would the bolded be true?  We haven't even seen how oonoki defeated those 5, and before flower tree world that happened he and the other 4 kages couldn't even beat one madara who hadn't used anything greater than a V3 susanoo.  By that logic, oonoki should have solod madara unless he instantly used flower tree world.  



Turrin said:


> If Onoki is able to avoid being Sharingan Genjutsu'd by 5 Madara clones with 10 eyes between that Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is going to be an issue. Finger-Gen and potentially Crow-Gen, not included, because they are different Genjutsu methods than anything Madara has displayed.


i agree for deeper reasons though



Turrin said:


> If Onoki is able to counter a massive scale elemental combo like Flower-Tree-World and Massive Katon, It seems doubtful that Itachi's elemental Jutsu are going to be an issue for Onoki, sans a more subtle type like Suiton: Suigadan.


Oonoki never countered the massive katon, no one did, the katon fullfilled its purpose of burning teh tree roots around them, if it was directed at them they'd be dead since no one put up a defensive jutsu against it.



Turrin said:


> Ruling out some things as unlikely to work, than allows for closer examination on stuff that might work, which is when we go into feats.


But you can't do that since itachi can do things like use susanoo in addition to using other abilities like MS jutsus, and then we have conflicting information like oonoki's inability to defeat a madara who's not using anything greater than his clones despite having the four kages on his side.



Turrin said:


> Yes I can see all of these techniques working, depending on how Onoki reacts to SM Kabuto going to use a Jutsu, which is really the question here. The stone will thing I could see working and I could see not working; I'd have to ask Kishi, since the whole will thing confuses the shit out of me, as to when it does, and doesn't work.
> 
> So basically again all i'm saying is that I could see it going ether way. It's not my obligation to prove how it would go, because I'm honestly not sure. However your saying it would certainly go one-way, so since you are sure Sasuke would get captured, I think it's perfectly fair that I ask for your evidence that proves w/o a shadow of a doubt that Sasuke would indeed get capture.


Well, then by that logic, do you think itachi or sasuke could have disrupted hakugeki with one of their jutsu?



Turrin said:


> Onoki has gone to skies in every battle except when he has had mass allies to combo with. The pattern is pretty clear.  You can say well his enemies can use flight, but what does that prove, when Onoki was not shown using flight only when his enemies did, rather he was the one who starts the battle with flight, rather than them.


then the dilema is whether oonoki chooses to fly due to having no comrades with him or chooses to fly due to fighting a non-airborn opponent.  But it really doesn't matter then



Turrin said:


> Why would busting the cave help with Haguki? With Onoki and Sasuke it helps because they can fly out of Haguki's range, but Itachi and Sasuke don't have flight. Again it's different fighting styles.


You said that the affects of hakugeki would be weaker outside of the cave so obviously they'd try to fight outside of the cave in order to counter the jutsu that dispels their susanoo.  And oonoki isn't going to perceive the attack, figure out what it does, bust the cave, lighten himself and sasuke and then fly out of range before hakugeki goes off.



Turrin said:


> Also your not going to get me to say that Itachi or Sasuke had PIS, when they dealt with everything Kabuto had to dish out in the cave and won that battle, by fighting the way that they did. So how can they be stupid if they won?


Um, it's very easy to be stupid and win at the same time, it just means that if you weren't stupid, you'd win with a lot less difficulty.  



Turrin said:


> Why would the Acid absorbed by the skin be instantly replaced with more Acid?




because you said that the acid that was absorbed into the skin is replaced by acid that enters susanoo.  If acid is melting sasuke at X rate, then the acid must be entering susanoo at that same rate.



Turrin said:


> There was no sign or indication of this whatsoever, tho.


no visual indication, but we wouldn't expect that either as the susanoo aura is sometimes shown and sometimes not shown.



Turrin said:


> You just said the sand was lightened so it would pack much less force and it's not like we saw the Sand struggle and break through, it met zero resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> This was not from the underneath the bottom


It doesn't matter if it was not from underneath or the bottom, the aura of susanoo is shown to have that durability.  The sand is much more forceful than lingering acid or acid sprayed as a mist and by your logic of the bottom being completely permiable madara should have been melted by mei's lava which was also stopped by the bottom.



Turrin said:


> It's called the argument of common-sense and I already appealed to that, but if we want to ignore common-sense than naw, I won't bother.


Well since just asserting that "my argument is supported by common sense" isn't in anyway some kind of counterargument or postive argument then it's a concession on your part.  I could just say my argument is supported by common sense and it'll be just as valid as what you've posted.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Mei has used Kirigakure, how will Oonoki be able to target Itachi?



Oonoki isn't needed


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Dude it's right in the DB entry for Mokuton. Mokuton creates trees and than these trees can be altered to be used for other Mokuton attacks and defenses, that's exactly what is sad in the basic description of Mokuton.
> 
> DBIII, _"With the "Kekkei Genkai" allowing the simultaneous use of the basic chakra natures "Earth Release" and "Water Release," plants and trees are created. The transformation of these displays a tremendous power in both offence and defence."_
> 
> ...


okay i concede this point.



Turrin said:


> As for the chakra absorbing techniques I'm talking about, it could be anyone of them. Yamato's KGOD, but let's just go with Madara's Mokuton Dragon since we've directly seen him use that before.
> 
> crouched over Kurama and Final Stage Susano'o from Madara.


well, then that would mean that in order to defeat itachi in that scenario, madara would have to get serious.  He'd have to use a jutsu he used after stating he wouldn't hold back.  And why wouldn't itachi just cut the dragon's head off with totsuka?  The dragon's durability feats are poor, its head was shattered by a mere TBB passing through it.



Turrin said:


> The ability is Flower Tree World. Madara would extend the Mokuton produced from it to swarm Susnao'o, just like we saw Hashirama do with his Mokuton Birth of Trees against Hiruzen.
> 
> He had the ability against the Gokage, however Onoki simply recovered and pulled out Jinton blowing away the Mokuton too quickly for Madara to use it.
> 
> Itachi does not have something that can blow away all the Mokuton so quickly like Jinton.


Really?  So you are saying that madara actually tried to use that mokuton to kill oonoki and the gokage, but failed to do so because oonoki was too fast with his jinton? 



Turrin said:


> I never said Madara was using an ability that he would denote as serious against Onoki.
> 
> The reason Madara's actions may differ against Itachi is because Itachi's himself differs from Onoki. Though the only things I've cited is swarming with Mokuton and pollen both of which he did use against the Gokage. We see Madara' Mokuton swarming them here:
> crouched over Kurama and Final Stage Susano'o from Madara.
> ...


If madara does another swarm of FTW, it's not defeating itachi.  His technique doesn't have the power to bust a V4 susanoo, sure he might be able to restrain itachi's susanoo with it, but that's not going to anything since itachi just levels it down to big ribcage and reforms it unrestrained.  



Turrin said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi is intelligent enough to consider it. If Naruto did not.
> 
> 
> Wait the massive amount of flames generated by Fuuton Rasenshuriken combined with Amaterasu wouldn't do enough immediate damage to core as Magatama, I would really like some proof of that assertion. I mean it's not like Magatama has some uber impressive feats of immediate damage in the manga.


Proof: what happens to the surroundings when Kakuzu gets hit by 50% base FRS?  A giant crater is formed.  What happens to the surroundings when Juubito gets hit and the area gets engulfed by enton? No crater or leveling was shown despite a large area being engulfed by the flames of the enton FRS.

Then there's the fact that attacks like Sasuke's enton arrow gets stopped by three chakra rods that rasengans can shatter.  



Turrin said:


> Context does not invalidate a statement as your trying to assert. Yes the context was they were going to blow up CT, but the fact that Itachi said they were going to use their most powerful long-range Jutsu, means, that the two things are not mutually exclusive. Itachi's best long-range Jutsu is also the one that would be most effective against CT. That's all the context tells us.


Sure it does.  Context is always a factor when dealing with "most powerful"  especially in a manga where "power" or "strong" can have many different meanings.  This isn't dragon ball z.



Turrin said:


> I see Itachi moving his head following Sasuke and lighting everything on fire within the point of his vision he's focusing on,  while he moves his head. Thus lighting everything on fire in a line towards Sasuke. Nor is there even any shred of evidence for a fire-ball in the manga.


So exactly what are balls of amaterasu being shot out at incredible distances away from itachi?  In a line?  If it was a line, why don't we see a line of amaterasu travelling out from the surrounding area?  why do we see them travelling as fireballs and then hitting the first thing they come into contact with (the forest).  Also don't you think that itachi using amaterasu at that distance disproves the databooks statement that it's a close range technique?



Turrin said:


> Again Madara would have not credited solely Onoki. I'm getting tired of you reaching for the 1% chance, instead of going with what is by far the obvious conclusion. I'm also getting tired of your extreme double standards where you don't have to show on panel feats of Itachi using Amaterasu at extreme-long-range despite it being counter intuitive that it he can. Yet I have to show panels of Onoki not combing with the kages to land weight alteration despite it being intuitive that Onoki did it on his own do to Madara's statement and the other Gokage dealing with their own shit at the time.


It's not a double standard on my part as I'm just bringing up arguments to support the assertion.  and I'm also not saying that you have to show oonoki doing that against madara else HE DIDN'T I'm saying that since we aren't shown that, we have to argue it by feats.  And no, madara would still credit oonoki regardless if oonoki utilized aspects of this big brawl to put those susanoo in weighted rocks as if it wasn't for his battle experience, he'd never be able to pull that off.



Turrin said:


> Of course not because Onoki is the only one to ever use that large of a Jinton and only in that instance. And again you ignore my point about it simply being artistic flare like how Kishi sometimes drew bolts of electricity through Tsunade's Shosen and it was also meaningless.


Do not attack strawmen.  Reread what I've posted and respond to my actual argument as i've never asked you to find another person who's used a gigantic jinton.



Turrin said:


> See I still not sure what you mean, but I'll try and respond:
> 
> Tsunade not being able to restore him fully at this point in the battle makes perfect sense, because she was also low on chakra at this point, as proven when she ran out shortly thereafter and had to be recharged by Dan.
> 
> Rather if Tsunade could restore Onoki completely or boost him further there would be no point in Onoki mentioning his own chakra limitations, because Tsunade was about to restore him and give him more regardless.


But that's not where your logic gets you.  If his statement that he hardly has any chakra left mean anything, then it'd mean that tsunade wouldn't be able to give him a significant amount of chakra since regardless of whether she restored him or not, his statement that "this is my last attack" would still stand.



Turrin said:


> What do you think I'm lying lol. I can't give you a link to the actual scans, because I don't have them. I got the trans from Blink ST who has the Official Viz and shares the translations with the forums. Here's a link to his post:
> 
> 
> Now I got Takl's translation of that line as; _maddy to himself: with susanoOs being put out, it was too late to absorb the jinton._
> ...


I don't think you are lying, but i'm not going to just take your word for it.  The link you gave me is good enough i concede this point.



Turrin said:


> LOL, come on dude, you seriously think Kishi is sitting at his desk doing geometric equations to figure out how exactly big of a Jinton Onoki can use and how long he can use it. Dream on buddy.


Since when have I ever said kishi's using EXACT equations?  I've given you the equations to give you an idea or rough estimate of how big those jintons are in relation to each other, if size of jinton = chakra of jinton, then I think the volume of the jinton is very indicative of how much chakra it'd take for oonoki to make it.  So I don't claim the numbers are exact, but I do claim that unless you have a better way of answering the question, these numbers would be our best guess as to how much chakra the techniques use up.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 28, 2013)

Rosen, I just listed everyone of Onoki's fights in general, not just his Gokage battle. 

Onoki never feinted Deidara. That was a clone Akatsuchi, Onoki's big companion, made and sent at Deidara. Chapter 514ish for your reference.

I repeat, out of _all_ of Onoki's fights, he's only ever used clones *once*. That _one_ time Onoki used clones was circumstantial against an invisible target who could snipe and whom he revered (Muu). Even in that one, single instance of him using clones, he didn't use them in a feinting manner.

Concerning flight, he's never flown out of an enemy's attack range in general, ever. He doesn't even know Amaterasu's range.

Yet, he's going to do ooc things like fly very high and make clones against Itachi. That just simply isn't a reasonable conclusion. I mean, shit, if Onoki had full knowledge then you know what you'd have a point.  But damn, really? He's going to do all this stuff against a guy he has nothing but reputation knowledge on? 

Because that's what Onoki's manga knowledge essentially boils down to, reputation. He probably doesn't even know Itachi's strongest genjutsu can't be Kai'd out of.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Is starting distance a stipulation in a matchup?


If the OP chooses it to be, than sure. 



> Madara was stated to have no weakness, NOT his clones and we've seen several times that weaknesses had arisen such as his inability to use preta after using susanoo, ability to get pulled out of susanoo, inability to block physical attacks with preta path, susanoo's weakness to weighted rocks and jinton being the perfect counter to the absolute defense. Then there's exploiting weaknesses of doujutsu like using hidden mist to block his LoS.


I thought you were talking about Madara in general, like why didn't Onoki figure out Madara's weakness. So yeah, sure Onoki had intel on the clones, which may or may not have helped him, who knows.

Honestly I don't even know what your trying to prove here with this example anymore and how it relates to Onoki vs Madara clones. Because in the Sandaime case we have a clone winning, while in the Onoki case we have Onoki winning. So what's going on, I am so confused by this logic.



> Standalone feats aren't a feat-based argument, that's just hype. a featbased argument or arguing using feats is comparing the abilities of characters directly against one another and seeing how those abilities stack up.


 If my argument is examining feats it is a feat based argument. What your referring to would be lol  comparing the abilities of characters directly against one another, which is also a feat-based  argument. Both are feat-based arguments, because well they are both based on feats. I mean I don't even know why this is a matter of contention.

Not to mention my initial post not only discussed both stand-alone feats, but also compared the abilities of characters directly against one another, so it covered both styles of feat-based arguments, anyway. 



> Why would the bolded be true?


What Bold



> We haven't even seen how oonoki defeated those 5, and before flower tree world that happened he and the other 4 kages couldn't even beat one madara who hadn't used anything greater than a V3 susanoo. By that logic, oonoki should have solod madara unless he instantly used flower tree world.


The Gokage weren't going all out at in the beginning, and they started to up their game throughout the battle, just like Madara did. Simple as that.



> i agree for deeper reasons though


So you look into it deeper, while I choose to not waste my time, when the answer is common-sense, based on what occurred against Madara. I see no difference, except I saved time.



> Oonoki never countered the massive katon, no one did, the katon fullfilled its purpose of burning teh tree roots around them, if it was directed at them they'd be dead since no one put up a defensive jutsu against it.


Onoki Didn't prove his Jinton could easily extinguish the flames of that Katon 



> But you can't do that since itachi can do things like use susanoo in addition to using other abilities like MS jutsus


I didn't rule out all of Itachi's MS Jutsu, based on this reasoning. I don't see Susano'o and Sharingan Gen as a major threat to Onoki.



> and then we have conflicting information like oonoki's inability to defeat a madara who's not using anything greater than his clones despite having the four kages on his side.


Madara's Clones >>> Itachi, as far as i'm concerned. 



> Well, then by that logic, do you think itachi or sasuke could have disrupted hakugeki with one of their jutsu?


If a major element in the battle was changed up, such as replacing one of the brothers with a completely different Shinobi, than perhaps.



> then the dilema is whether oonoki chooses to fly due to having no comrades with him or chooses to fly due to fighting a non-airborn opponent. But it really doesn't matter then


There is no dilemma, Onoki has used flight in every battle, except when he's had many powerful allies, he needs to combo with. Not to mention Kishi had him flight along-side the long-range division and him + Gaara kept at long-range for the entire first day of the war, So he will most likely use long-range/ flight here. 

But you seem to love you, some 1% chances, and yes I'll admit there is an incredibly low % chance he won't use flight, but if your entire view point is constructed on low percent chances, it should start to become obvious to you that your are intentionally or unintentionally low-balling Onoki's abilities.



> You said that the affects of hakugeki would be weaker outside of the cave so obviously they'd try to fight outside of the cave in order to counter the jutsu that dispels their susanoo.


No I said we haven't seen Hakuguki have the range to effect flying opponents. The focus there is on flight & range, not inside or outside the cave.



> And oonoki isn't going to perceive the attack, figure out what it does, bust the cave, lighten himself and sasuke and then fly out of range before hakugeki goes off.


I never said he'd do it at the moment of Haguki, I said it's very plausible that he would have done so well before Kabuto went to use Haguki, because he is a long-range fighter, by nature.



> Um, it's very easy to be stupid and win at the same time, it just means that if you weren't stupid, you'd win with a lot less difficulty.


I hardly think Kishi wants us to look at that battle as Sasuke and Itachi being stupid. It's also not like Haguki caused them any serious problems. Itachi defended it and than that was, was that. If they were heavily injured or something because of it, than you could argue it's stupid they didn't leave the cave, but it really did nothing to them. So i'm not going to fault the guys who not only won while fighting in the cave, but Haguki accomplished nothing against.



> because you said that the acid that was absorbed into the skin is replaced by acid that enters susanoo. If acid is melting sasuke at X rate, then the acid must be entering susanoo at that same rate.* no visual indication, but we wouldn't expect that either as the susanoo aura is sometimes shown and sometimes not shown.*


So basically we are left in a situation were it can't be proved one way or another.

Also you know what i'm done with the Acid thing, because the more I think about it the acid thing just plain doesn't make any sense in general. When Sasuke got burned because Acid leaked in he should have died as he would have breathed in the Acid and it would have destroyed his lungs. So how Sasuke survived at all makes no sense. So I'm just going to put the whole thing up to Plot-BS, and us never knowing what the true answer is, till we see Susano'o go up against more types of air-biased techs.



> It doesn't matter if it was not from underneath or the bottom, the aura of susanoo is shown to have that durability.


When have we even been shown the aura extends underneath the feat? When was it proven that all areas of the aura have the same level of durability?



> The sand is much more forceful than lingering acid or acid sprayed as a mist and by your logic of the bottom being completely permiable madara should have been melted by mei's lava which was also stopped by the bottom


Madara is not a good example, because we know as an EMS user he can extend Susano'o's aura and such beneath, that's how he creates legs after all. We have not seen this with a normal MS users.



> Well since just asserting that "my argument is supported by common sense" isn't in anyway some kind of counterargument or postive argument then it's a concession on your part. I could just say my argument is supported by common sense and it'll be just as valid as what you've posted


I'm not trying to argue this point. I think I made that very clear. To me it's common-sense, to you it's not; we'll have to agree to disagree.



> okay i concede this point.


Cool 



> well, then that would mean that in order to defeat itachi in that scenario, madara would have to get serious. He'd have to use a jutsu he used after stating he wouldn't hold back.


Wood Dragon is not even one of Madara's strongest Jutsu, so just using Wood-dragon is indeed still holding back. Madara saying he was not going to hold back against Naruto anymore wouldn't refer to simply the act of using Wood-Dragon, but whatever else he had planned from here on out.



> And why wouldn't itachi just cut the dragon's head off with totsuka? The dragon's durability feats are poor, its head was shattered by a mere TBB passing through it.


The dragon was tanking BM Naruto Cloak attacks, that seems like good durability feats to me. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Totsuka's offensive might is anywhere close to Kyuubi's TBB. Why do you think that?



> Really? So you are saying that madara actually tried to use that mokuton to kill oonoki and the gokage, but failed to do so because oonoki was too fast with his jinton?


Of course he wouldn't have used that specific Mokuton, since Onoki wouldn't be calling out a giant chakra construct like Susano'o. Again your trying to get Madara to react to Itachi and Onoki the exact same way, but it doesn't work like that, because Itachi and Onoki are totally different Shinobi, and thus Madara will react differently to how each one handles the situation differently.

If Itachi attempts to protect the Gokage from FTW w/ Susano'o, this will illicite a different response from Madara, than Onoki Stone-Willing out of FTW's pollen and using a quick Jinton to vaporize FTW. 



> If madara does another swarm of FTW, it's not defeating itachi. His technique doesn't have the power to bust a V4 susanoo, sure he might be able to restrain itachi's susanoo with it, but that's not going to anything since itachi just levels it down to big ribcage and reforms it unrestrained.


It would just bust through the bottom, which has zero defensive feats, in this manga.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

> Proof: what happens to the surroundings when Kakuzu gets hit by 50% base FRS? A giant crater is formed. What happens to the surroundings when Juubito gets hit and the area gets engulfed by enton? No crater or leveling was shown despite a large area being engulfed by the flames of the enton FRS.
> 
> Then there's the fact that attacks like Sasuke's enton arrow gets stopped by three chakra rods that rasengans can shatter


This doesn't prove that a massive quantity of flames wouldn't do the same amount of damage to the CT core as Magatama + FRS. All this proves is that the two would work differently, which I never doubted in the first place. I'm just not sure that Magatam + FRS is doing more damage than FRS + Amaterasu Swarming the Core with a ridiculous amount of flames.



> Sure it does. Context is always a factor when dealing with "most powerful" especially in a manga where "power" or "strong" can have many different meanings. This isn't dragon ball z.


You are wrong, just admit it, until you do i'm just going copy and paste this over and over again until you get it:

*Context does not invalidate a statement *as your trying to assert. Yes the context was they were going to blow up CT, *but the fact that Itachi said they were going to use their most powerful long-range Jutsu, means, that the two things are not mutually exclusive*. Itachi's best long-range Jutsu is also the one that would be most effective against CT. *That's all the context tells us.*



> So exactly what are balls of amaterasu being shot out at incredible distances away from itachi? In a line? If it was a line, why don't we see a line of amaterasu travelling out from the surrounding area? why do we see them travelling as fireballs and then hitting the first thing they come into contact with (the forest).


Are you talking about the wind spreading the Amaterasu flames from Tree to Tree?



> Also don't you think that itachi using amaterasu at that distance disproves the databooks statement that it's a close range technique?


No I think it's almost impossible to measure distance in a 2D manage where the author F's up scaling all the time. 



> It's not a double standard on my part as I'm just bringing up arguments to support the assertion. and I'm also not saying that you have to show oonoki doing that against madara else HE DIDN'T I'm saying that since we aren't shown that, we have to argue it by feats.


It is a double standard. Because you are saying since we aren't shown something we have to argue by feats, when it comes to Onoki. Yet when it comes to Amaterasu, despite not being shown it used at extreme-long-range, suddenly we don't have to argue by feats. 

This is made even more ridiculous by the fact, that Onoki beating the Madara clones by himself is an intuitive assumption. While Amaterasu being used at extreme-long-range is a counter-intuitive assumption at this point.



> And no, madara would still credit oonoki regardless if oonoki utilized aspects of this big brawl to put those susanoo in weighted rocks as *if it wasn't for his battle experience, he'd never be able to pull that off.*


Please read what your saying If it wasn't for his battle exp he'd never be able to pull that off. The subject is him. If the other Gokage offered major assistance in this, the subject would not be just "him" and just his battle exp allowing the feat to be pulled off, but whatever combo the Gokage pulled out to accomplish it.



> well, can you show other people in other instances producing an aura because they used a super giant technique comparable to oonoki and his cube?


Why are we arbitrarily comparing other super giant techniques to Onoki's Jinton Cube. Why not compare the fact that we've seen Kishi add none-sense artistic flare to Tsunade's Shosen before, to this aura, which could easily be the same type of artistic flare? That is a far more apt comparison.



> But that's not where your logic gets you. If his statement that he hardly has any chakra left mean anything, then it'd mean that tsunade wouldn't be able to give him a significant amount of chakra since regardless of whether she restored him or not, his statement that "this is my last attack" would still stand.


That's what i'm saying; going off that statement Tsunade did not have enough chakra left herself to fully restore Onoki. 

If that doesn't answer your question than I still have no clue what your talking about.



> I don't think you are lying, but i'm not going to just take your word for it. The link you gave me is good enough i concede this point.


Well just take my word for it next time as it saves me time lol. 



> Since when have I ever said kishi's using EXACT equations? I've given you the equations to give you an idea or rough estimate of how big those jintons are in relation to each other, if size of jinton = chakra of jinton, then I think the volume of the jinton is very indicative of how much chakra it'd take for oonoki to make it. So I don't claim the numbers are exact, but I do claim that unless you have a better way of answering the question, these numbers would be our best guess as to how much chakra the techniques use up.


There is no way Kishi is even sitting there considering things like Volume. So the equation gives me no real indication of anything since Kishi is not thinking about it within any of these terms.


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## ueharakk (Oct 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> If the OP chooses it to be, than sure.


So wouldn't you say that a starting distance of lets say the typical 30-100 meters would be favorable conditions for sandaime raikage?



Turrin said:


> I thought you were talking about Madara in general, like why didn't Onoki figure out Madara's weakness. So yeah, sure Onoki had intel on the clones, which may or may not have helped him, who knows.


then obviously the logic of oonoki vs madara's clones would apply to sandaime raikage vs sm naruto's clone.



Turrin said:


> Honestly I don't even know what your trying to prove here with this example anymore and how it relates to Onoki vs Madara clones. Because in the Sandaime case we have a clone winning, while in the Onoki case we have Onoki winning. So what's going on, I am so confused by this logic.


the logic is that if you want to say oonoki > 5 V3 susanoo clones, then you'd have to conclude that a single SM clone > Sandaime raikage.



Turrin said:


> Not to mention my initial post not only discussed both stand-alone feats, but also compared the abilities of characters directly against one another, so it covered both styles of feat-based arguments, anyway.


But it mixes them when it suits your agenda.  On one hand you sometimes compare oonoki's abilities to itachi's abilities, and at other times you simply posit standalone feats and say that if oonoki can do this to madara then he can do it to itachi as well without making any kind of comparison regarding how itachi's abilities stack up against that.  And thus it's a double standard, you evaluate certain abilities of oonoki's using a different measuring stick than other abilities.



Turrin said:


> What Bold
> 
> 
> The Gokage weren't going all out at in the beginning, and they started to up their game throughout the battle, just like Madara did. Simple as that.


then that means PIS exists since there is no reason for the gokage to not give it their A game from the get go against someone of madara's calibre, especially if their A game would have afforded themselves the win or would force madara to up his game.



Turrin said:


> Onoki Didn't prove his Jinton could easily extinguish the flames of that Katon


he didn't prove that he would have been able to fire the jinton in response to madara performing his katon, he didn't prove that his jinton would have been able to completely protect himself and his gokage members from the entirety of that katon directed at them.  What he did prove is that he could destroy the burning mokuton AFTER that katon was destroyed, and thus proved that had he prepped his jinton already, if it collides with fire, it eats the fire that touches it up.  So no, nothing about countering a katon.



Turrin said:


> I didn't rule out all of Itachi's MS Jutsu, based on this reasoning. I don't see Susano'o and Sharingan Gen as a major threat to Onoki.


you have to include the word "alone" at the end of those statements, and include V3 susanoo that can only use 1 blade.



Turrin said:


> Madara's Clones >>> Itachi, as far as i'm concerned.


by what reasoning exactly?  Are you asserting that Mei, tsunade, gaara and Ei could fight off 5 itachis for hours?



Turrin said:


> If a major element in the battle was changed up, such as replacing one of the brothers with a completely different Shinobi, than perhaps.


So you don't believe either of the brothers have anything they could have done to disrupt hakugeki.  So Itachi can't amaterasu it, sasuke can't blast it with an arrow, both can't bat it away with a susanoo sword, yet oonoki can disrupt it in how many different ways?



Turrin said:


> There is no dilemma, Onoki has used flight in every battle, except when he's had many powerful allies, he needs to combo with. Not to mention Kishi had him flight along-side the long-range division and him + Gaara kept at long-range for the entire first day of the war, So he will most likely use long-range/ flight here.


Yet there IS a dilemma since oonoki HASN'T used long range flight in ANY battle which have opponents who can't fly.  Lawrence even brought up a scan that showed oonoki disdained at deidara's fighting style of fighting at long range.  There was no fighting at all in the long range division during the first day so I don't know what you are trying to say there.



Turrin said:


> But you seem to love you, some 1% chances, and yes I'll admit there is an incredibly low % chance he won't use flight, but if your entire view point is constructed on low percent chances, it should start to become obvious to you that your are intentionally or unintentionally low-balling Onoki's abilities.


You asserting that it's some kind of 1% chance that oonoki won't use long ranged flight against a grounded opponent doesn't mean anything unless you back it up with an argument.  I can say that your argument is just a 1% chance of being true and it'll be just as valid as your claim.   I'm not in anyway lowballing oonoki's abilities, we aren't even talking about his abilities, rather how he uses those abilities.



Turrin said:


> No I said we haven't seen Hakuguki have the range to effect flying opponents. The focus there is on flight & range, not inside or outside the cave.


well then itachi just runs away or shunshins away.  Oonoki's flying speed isn't faster than itachi's running or shunshin speed.  Thus no difference.



Turrin said:


> I never said he'd do it at the moment of Haguki, I said it's very plausible that he would have done so well before Kabuto went to use Haguki, because he is a long-range fighter, by nature.


Yet by that logic both brothers should have been attacking kabuto with long range techniques instead of letting him use his technique, thus you again are backed against the wall by either having to admit PIS.



Turrin said:


> I hardly think Kishi wants us to look at that battle as Sasuke and Itachi being stupid.


Don't know where my post implied sasuke and itachi were being portrayed as stupid.  And it doesn't matter if kabuto wasn't able to capitalize on hakugeki, it succeeded in shutting down susanoo, that's obviously an accomplishment.  Are you saying that it isn't any smarter to eliminate kabuto's ability to cancel Susanoo and immobilize both itachi and sasuke instead of allowing kabuto the potential to still do that?  



Turrin said:


> So basically we are left in a situation were it can't be proved one way or another.
> 
> So I'm just going to put the whole thing up to Plot-BS, and us never knowing what the true answer is, till we see Susano'o go up against more types of air-biased techs.


We very much can argue this, and my explanation fits it perfectly: that sasuke after seeing his arm start to burn increased the aura of his susanoo, which is why his arm stopped burning.  No we wouldn't see sasuke breathing it in because it doesn't reach his face, only his arm which is the closest to the ends of the ribcage. 



Turrin said:


> When have we even been shown the aura extends underneath the feat? When was it proven that all areas of the aura have the same level of durability?


Since there are no visual indications of the aura being any different underneath the feet than above, then obviously there's nothing that suggests its any more durable from underneath than above.  Why would the aura have to extend under the feet?  I don't see how that affects my argument in anyway.



Turrin said:


> Madara is not a good example, because we know as an EMS user he can extend Susano'o's aura and such beneath, that's how he creates legs after all. We have not seen this with a normal MS users.


The aura *literally touches the ground,* and *completely surrounds itachi* even when he's not using ribcage susanoo.



Turrin said:


> Wood Dragon is not even one of Madara's strongest Jutsu, so just using Wood-dragon is indeed still holding back. Madara saying he was not going to hold back against Naruto anymore wouldn't refer to simply the act of using Wood-Dragon, but whatever else he had planned from here on out.


How exactly is wood dragon not one of madara's strongest jutsus?  It's by his own statement the mokuton that bound 100% Kurama in the past, and if he performs that immediately after stating he won't hold back.  I do not see how one can't interpret that as not one of madara's strongest jutsus.   



Turrin said:


> The dragon was tanking BM Naruto Cloak attacks, that seems like good durability feats to me. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Totsuka's offensive might is anywhere close to Kyuubi's TBB. Why do you think that?


I don't think totsuka's offensive might is anywhere near kurama's TBB as well, however that's not what I said and it doesn't have to be.  I said that because the wood tech was shattered by a TBB merely passing through it and not even exploding, that totsuka can cut it.  It tanked BM Naruto biting it, I don't think a bite from BM Naruto is more powerful than a slash from totsuka.



Turrin said:


> Of course he wouldn't have used that specific Mokuton, since Onoki wouldn't be calling out a giant chakra construct like Susano'o. Again your trying to get Madara to react to Itachi and Onoki the exact same way, but it doesn't work like that, because Itachi and Onoki are totally different


You didn't answer the question.  Madara doesn't have to use the specific mokuton that he uses against itachi to kill oonoki, all he has to do is manipulate the surrounding mokuton to kill the gokage once they are asleep, manipulation that isn't going to be anything close to what it'll take him to restrain susanoo.  Thus I again ask you the question, are you asserting oonoki getting knocked out, having a dream, waking up, and generating a jinton is so fast that madara can't even beging to use his tech?  If not, then it's obviously either PIS or proof that itachi fends the technique just as well as oonoki.



Turrin said:


> If Itachi attempts to protect the Gokage from FTW w/ Susano'o, this will illicite a different response from Madara, than Onoki Stone-Willing out of FTW's pollen and using a quick Jinton to vaporize FTW.


Yeah, that's irrelevant since the gokage would be dead if madara wasn't PIS'd into not using a far far lesser version of what you're saying he does to itachi in order to ensure the gokage's deaths.



Turrin said:


> It would just bust through the bottom, which has zero defensive feats, in this manga.


Protects the bottom with yaata which is semi permeable.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This doesn't prove that a massive quantity of flames wouldn't do the same amount of damage to the CT core as Magatama + FRS. All this proves is that the two would work differently, which I never doubted in the first place. I'm just not sure that Magatam + FRS is doing more damage than FRS + Amaterasu Swarming the Core with a ridiculous amount of flames.


Exactly how does that not prove it would do less damage than magatama + FRS?  I've shown you that a 50% FRS does far more damage to rock than enton rasenshuriken, and that the flames don't do jack to rock as well in a short time.  What is Chibaku tensei made up of?  Rocks basically.  What did more damage to rock, 50% FRS or enton rasenshuriken?  50% FRS obviously.  Thus how do you reach your conclusion?  This is even worse that what you baselessly accusing me of the whole 1% thing.



Turrin said:


> You are wrong, just admit it, until you do i'm just going copy and paste this over and over again until you get it:
> 
> *Context does not invalidate a statement *as your trying to assert. Yes the context was they were going to blow up CT, *but the fact that Itachi said they were going to use their most powerful long-range Jutsu, means, that the two things are not mutually exclusive*. Itachi's best long-range Jutsu is also the one that would be most effective against CT. *That's all the context tells us.*


you are wrong, just admit it, until you do i'm just going to copy and paste this over and over again until you get it:
Context is always a factor when dealing with "most powerful" especially in a manga where "power" or "strong" can have many different meanings. This isn't dragon ball z.



Turrin said:


> Are you talking about the wind spreading the Amaterasu flames from Tree to Tree?


Wait so you are saying that those black globs of amaterasu, all in a straight line are merely pre-existing amaterasu that has landed on trees that the wind is now conveniently blowing in a perfect line?  



Turrin said:


> No I think it's almost impossible to measure distance in a 2D manage where the author F's up scaling all the time.


You just shot yourself in the foot.  IF that's true then that means it's impossible for you to claim that itachi can't hit oonoki with his amaterasu or oonoki would be out of itachi's range since it's almost impossible to measure the distance oonoki is away or the distance itachi's furthest amaterasu is away.

The amaterasu reached greater than 2 levels down of the uchiha complex, that's more than enough distance to hit oonoki and to debunk the databook claim that it's a close range technique.



Turrin said:


> It is a double standard. Because you are saying since we aren't shown something we have to argue by feats, when it comes to Onoki. Yet when it comes to Amaterasu, despite not being shown it used at extreme-long-range, suddenly we don't have to argue by feats.


It's not a double standard because in the case of amaterasu we CAN'T argue by feats because the limits have never been tested.  However, we can argue oonoki beating the susanoo clones with weighted rocks because we can show by feats how fast oonoki is, and the jutsu he could have used to do it.

In addition to that, oonoki vs 5 susanoo clones is an actual match which involves tons of more factors that the mere evaluation of a jutsu's limits, thus not a double standard.



Turrin said:


> Please read what your saying If it wasn't for his battle exp he'd never be able to pull that off. The subject is him. If the other Gokage offered major assistance in this, the subject would not be just "him" and just his battle exp allowing the feat to be pulled off, *but whatever combo the Gokage pulled out to accomplish it.*


Other than merely asserting that "you are wrong" with the bolded, I don't see how any of this contradicts the reasoning that i've given in that post.  If mei cast a hidden mist on the battlefield, and oonoki was able to use that to his advantage due to his experience while the other kages were not, then obviously madara would only comment on oonoki's experience being the reason why he beat the clones and why the other kages didn't.  



Turrin said:


> Why are we arbitrarily comparing other super giant techniques to Onoki's Jinton Cube. Why not compare the fact that we've seen Kishi add none-sense artistic flare to Tsunade's Shosen before, to this aura, which could easily be the same type of artistic flare? That is a far more apt comparison.


Um because not only does shousen differ from its usual healing circle around the medic's palm but it turned into a full body aura, which is completely different from merely adding bolts to tsunade's jutsu.  And can you post the scan of these bolts being added?



Turrin said:


> That's what i'm saying; going off that statement Tsunade did not have enough chakra left herself to fully restore Onoki.
> 
> If that doesn't answer your question than I still have no clue what your talking about.


That's what you are trying to say based on your reasoning, but that's not where your reasoning gets you.  Your reasoning that oonoki, despite tsunade being there to heal him, still believes that due to him having low chakra, that this well be his last attack would lead you to the conclusion that tsunade isn't significantly boosting his chakra levels.  If tsunade could boost his chakra levels significantly then he would redact the statement that this will be my last attack.



Turrin said:


> There is no way Kishi is even sitting there considering things like Volume. So the equation gives me no real indication of anything since Kishi is not thinking about it within any of these terms.


Sure he is.  Don't you think that if kishi believes a jinton cube way larger than another jinton cube would consume much more chakra to hold up?  If so, then kishi is sitting there considering the volume or amount of space the cube takes up.  Now is it exactly the same as geometrically calculating how big one cube is compared to the other?  I don't assert that, but that doesn't mean the equation gives you no real indication of it.  The equation would be the exact volume relation, now the question is: does kishi err greater or less than the geometric numbers?  We don't know could be either or but it does give us a kind of rough estimate or at least a kind of way to compare the chakra consumption.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 29, 2013)

You tell them itachi wankers how it is!

They keep negg'ing me, lol.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Oonoki doesn't even have a counter to Amaterasu, so he's dead once Itachi decides to use that.
> 
> Lol, Mei.



Onoki can counter Amaterasu through clone feints or flight. It's pretty obvious that Onoki has the reflexes necessary to counter Amaterasu in time, as he could react to the speed of a super-lightened maximum speed Yondaime Raikage fast enough to make his fist super heavy, right before his fist was about to collide with Madara's Susano'o at full speed. Even an un-lightened maximum speed Yondaime Raikage is faster than Amaterasu, now imagine him with at least thrice that speed. Onoki could react to that same Raikage with the speed of his own jutsu - so no way in hell is anything less than Susano'o catching the Tsuchikage here. Also, the higher the Sandaime Tsuchikage flies, the lower the chances of the black flames hitting him (which were already low enough to begin with) - not to mention it's supposed to be a close-range jutsu anyway. 

In addition, he can also set up clone feints in order to make it impossible for Itachi to torch him with Amaterasu. Mei's Kirigakure no Jutsu would blind Itachi, making 95% of his Dojutsu techniques useless, especially Genjutsu and Susano'o weaponry. He'd need to spam Amaterasu in order to generate enough heat to vaporize the mist, and use Susano'o simultaneously in order to be safe from Mei's acid mist, which she can easily mix in with the regular mist. Doing all this would surely take a huge toll on the Uchiha's already low stamina levels.  I'm not denying that Itachi would beat Mei, but it would not be an easy win by any means, and he's certainly not beating Onoki at all.

The Kages are being criminally underrated.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So wouldn't you say that a starting distance of lets say the typical 30-100 meters would be favorable conditions for sandaime raikage?


It's relative to who Sandaime is fighting against. However traditionally I'd say a starting distance of 5-15m would be the advantageous range for him.



> then obviously the logic of oonoki vs madara's clones would apply to sandaime raikage vs sm naruto's clone.the logic is that if you want to say oonoki > 5 V3 susanoo clones, then you'd have to conclude that a single SM clone > Sandaime raikage.


Why? I don't see the exclusivity of these two events.



> But it mixes them when it suits your agenda. On one hand you sometimes compare oonoki's abilities to itachi's abilities, and at other times you simply posit standalone feats and say that if oonoki can do this to madara then he can do it to itachi as well without making any kind of comparison regarding how itachi's abilities stack up against that. And thus it's a double standard, you evaluate certain abilities of oonoki's using a different measuring stick than other abilities.


It's called looking at something from multiple perspectives, which is not a double standard. 



> then that means PIS exists since there is no reason for the gokage to not give it their A game from the get go against someone of madara's calibre, especially if their A game would have afforded themselves the win or would force madara to up his game.


The reason to not go all out at the start is to hold somethings in reserve, to be use at an opportune time & conserve chakra.



> he didn't prove that he would have been able to fire the jinton in response to madara performing his katon, he didn't prove that his jinton would have been able to completely protect himself and his gokage members from the entirety of that katon directed at them. What he did prove is that he could destroy the burning mokuton AFTER that katon was destroyed, and thus proved that had he prepped his jinton already, if it collides with fire, it eats the fire that touches it up. So no, nothing about countering a katon.


Look, I said if Onoki can counter FTW + Katon combo, which is FAR beyond any level of elemental Jutsu that Itachi has displayed, he'd probably not struggle with the level of Itachi's elemental Jutsu.

What your referring to is casting speed, that has nothing to do with the strength or level of Itachi's elemental Jutsu and instead speaks to a totally different aspect of Itachi's character; hand-seal speed. Never did I once say this proves anything about how Onoki would handle Itachi's hand-seal speed. For that we'd have to look elsewhere



> you have to include the word "alone" at the end of those statements, and include V3 susanoo that can only use 1 blade.


. 
Huh?



> by what reasoning exactly? Are you asserting that Mei, tsunade, gaara and Ei could fight off 5 itachis for hours?


I didn't say 1 Clone > Itachi, I said 5 to 25 Clones > Itachi. Do you disagree with this? Do you think that Itachi would defeat 5 Madara Clones? Do you think Itachi would defeat 25 Madara clones?



> So you don't believe either of the brothers have anything they could have done to disrupt hakugeki. So Itachi can't amaterasu it, sasuke can't blast it with an arrow, both can't bat it away with a susanoo sword, y


In that situation no, because that's what's shown in the manga cannon.



> et oonoki can disrupt it in how many different ways?


I said Onoki may be able to counter it, depending on how events of the battle played out, up until the point Kabuto used Haguki, considering the introduction of an entirely new element to the battle; Itachi replaced with Onoki.



> Yet there IS a dilemma since oonoki HASN'T used long range flight in ANY battle which have opponents who can't fly.


Nindaime Mizukage can't fly. Here we see Onoki still attempt to making use of flight against him; he uses Gaara's Sand plat-form (probably to conserve chakra), but he's still preferring to rely on flight. 

Not to mention there is zero evidence that he only use flight to counteract his enemies flight. Because once again Onoki is the one to start matches using flight, rather than Onoki simply using flight in response to his enemies doing so. 



> Lawrence even brought up a scan that showed oonoki disdained at deidara's fighting style of fighting at long range


It seems to me that Onoki is not down on Deidara simply because he fights at long-range, but rather because he does so like, to quote Onoki, a  "sneaky-bastard". 

Demonstrably we've seen Onoki attack opponents from long-range, while flying before, who do not have flight. His Jinton against the Edo Kages, which was launched from the air, was direct at all of them, not Just Mu.  He using Gaara's sand plat-form engaged Mizukage while using flight, despite Mizukage not possessing flight himself. Onoki's even states the proper tactic for engaging the Edo Kage is start with long-range attacks:
Here we see Onoki 

So he'd be a hypocrite if he was against long-range maneuvers, though maybe his title Ōnoki of Both Scales, is a reference to a hypocritical personality; you'd have to ask translator. But ether way   the above demonstrates Onoki is not against fighting from long-range, in-fact he clearly sees it as valuable strategic maneuver. 



> There was no fighting at all in the long range division during the first day so I don't know what you are trying to say there.


How do we know there was no Jutsu utilized? However it doesn't even matter, whether they were using Jutsu or not. Onoki was in a battle scenario, and he made the choice to patiently stay at an extreme distance away from the enemy. He opted to keep his distance and than the next day he opt for a long-range strike. All of this shows Onoki's williningness to utilize long-range style tactics.



> I'm not in anyway lowballing oonoki's abilities, we aren't even talking about his abilities, rather how he uses those abilities.


Your low balling Onoki's intelligence than. Onoki knows enough about Sharingan and Uchiha, that he'd know they are big threat in CQC, so it would be dumb move for him to engage an Uchiha in CQC, when he has the ability to fight at long-range. Just like Itachi could decide to flee to long-range against Onoki, but it would be stupid off him to do so when he excels more at CQC. 



> well then itachi just runs away or shunshins away.


I'm not saying Onoki would fly away at the moment that Haguki was launched. I was saying that Onoki and Sasuke may be flying well before Haguki is even used. 



> Yet by that logic both brothers should have been attacking kabuto with long range techniques instead of letting him use his technique, thus you again are backed against the wall by either having to admit PIS.


The brothers have no reason move into long-range when they are more suited to CQC & again they won the match. Onoki being a totally different fighter than them stylistically is more suited to long-range.



> Don't know where my post implied sasuke and itachi were being portrayed as stupid. And it doesn't matter if kabuto wasn't able to capitalize on hakugeki, it succeeded in shutting down susanoo, that's obviously an accomplishment.


An accomplishment that did no damage to Itachi and Sasuke, and did not in anyway deter their victory. So why are they stupid?



> Are you saying that it isn't any smarter to eliminate kabuto's ability to cancel Susanoo and immobilize both itachi and sasuke instead of allowing kabuto the potential to still do that?


Let's say Itachi and Sasuke tried to goto long-range.

-They'd have to be able to maintain this distance against SM Kabuto. I don't see them outrunning a Sage, who also has access to massive Summons and can warp the topography. It would be different if they had high-speed flight, but they don't. So I just see them wasting chakra in a fruitless attempt to escape to long-range. 

But hell let's pretend they can  through some miracle maintain long-range against Kabuto. Okay well guess what

- they are lowering their own combat abilities because they are better at CQC, than long-range
- they are making Izanami next to impossible to execute, because it is also a close-range Jutsu

So yes I think it would be stupid to risk attempting long-range combat, versuse what they actually did in the manga which resulted in their victory.



> We very much can argue this, and my explanation fits it perfectly: that sasuke after seeing his arm start to burn increased the aura of his susanoo, which is why his arm stopped burning. No we wouldn't see sasuke breathing it in because it doesn't reach his face, only his arm which is the closest to the ends of the ribcage.


Why in your explanation did only a little bit seep in enough to reach just his arm than? If Susano'o's defense was down at that point, why didn't more seep in? If Sasuke could simply strength his aura to block it, why didn't he do so to begin with instead of allowing some acid to seep in and burn his arm?



> Since there are no visual indications of the aura being any different underneath the feet than above, then obviously there's nothing that suggests its any more durable from underneath than above. Why would the aura have to extend under the feet? I don't see how that affects my argument in anyway.


I don't see any aura on the bottom period. That is what i'm asking proof of.



> The aura literally touches the ground, and completely surrounds itachi even when he's not using ribcage susanoo.


None of that shows the aura on the bottom of Susano'o.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

> How exactly is wood dragon not one of madara's strongest jutsus? It's by his own statement the mokuton that bound 100% Kurama in the past, and if he performs that immediately after stating he won't hold back. I do not see how one can't interpret that as not one of madara's strongest jutsus.


Alright I concede this point, but there are lesser Mokuton's Madara should be able to use for Chakra absorption w/o having to pull out Wood-Dragon like Yamato's KGOD:




> You didn't answer the question. Madara doesn't have to use the specific mokuton that he uses against itachi to kill oonoki, all he has to do is manipulate the surrounding mokuton to kill the gokage once they are asleep, manipulation that isn't going to be anything close to what it'll take him to restrain susanoo. Thus I again ask you the question, are you asserting oonoki getting knocked out, having a dream, waking up, and generating a jinton is so fast that madara can't even beging to use his tech? If not, then it's obviously either PIS or proof that itachi fends the technique just as well as oonoki.


Before Madara could use a follow up Mokuton, yeah, that's exactly what I think. The stupid lashback scene was probably mili-seconds as we've seen flashbacks occur in a fraction of time before. Than Onoki pulls out the beam Jinton incredibly quickly.



> Yeah, that's irrelevant since the gokage would be dead if madara wasn't PIS'd into not using a far far lesser version of what you're saying he does to itachi in order to ensure the gokage's deaths


You like to throw PIS around a-lot, but it's not PIS, Onoki simply stone-willed himself back in the game and Jinton'd before the Mokuton could be extended into a lethal successive attack or the flames consumed him and the Gokage. 

In Itachi's case he could not blow away FTW that quickly, so that would give Madara more time to fuck w/ him using FTW's Mokuton or successive attacks combo'd with FTW's Mokuton.



> Protects the bottom with yaata which is semi permeable.


When has Itachi ever demonstrated something like this? Could Yata be put on the bottom of Susano'o, before an attacks reaches Itachi? Even Madara who can straight up generate a defense from the bottom could not do so before Gaara's Sand grabbed him, I find it hard to imagine that Itachi will have enough time to do something like this.



> Exactly how does that not prove it would do less damage than magatama + FRS? I've shown you that a 50% FRS does far more damage to rock than enton rasenshuriken, and that the flames don't do jack to rock as well in a short time. What is Chibaku tensei made up of? Rocks basically. What did more damage to rock, 50% FRS or enton rasenshuriken? 50% FRS obviously. Thus how do you reach your conclusion? This is even worse that what you baselessly accusing me of the whole 1% thing.


The core is not rock, which is what they had to destroy. Hachibi's Bijuu Bomb alone would have done away with the rocks.



> you are wrong, just admit it, until you do i'm just going to copy and paste this over and over again until you get it:
> Context is always a factor when dealing with "most powerful" especially in a manga where "power" or "strong" can have many different meanings. This isn't dragon ball z.


The difference is I've actually responed to this idea of yours many times now and you have not addressed any of my point, but simply keep repeating "context". So why shouldn't I keep repeating my response, since the ideas in my response still have not been addressed by you or even acknowledge whatsoever.

I'll try once again;

Context does not allow us to ignore or change a statement. If Itachi says Magatama is his most powerful LR- Jutsu, than all this means is that, his most powerful LR- Jutsu is also the best Jutsu to use against CT; the two things are not mutually exclusive. If Kishi wanted there to be a distinction between Itachi's most powerful LR-Jutsu and Itachi's best Jutsu to use against CT, he would have not had Itachi call Magatama his most powerful LR-Jutsu. There was nothing forcing Kishi to use the qualifier "most" in that scenario. Rather it was Kishi's choice to include it, and the moment Kishi made that choice, the context became that Itachi's best Jutsu to use against CT, is also his most-powerful LR-Jutsu, not he's just using the best Jutsu to take out CT.



> Wait so you are saying that those black globs of amaterasu, all in a straight line are merely pre-existing amaterasu that has landed on trees that the wind is now conveniently blowing in a perfect line?


Actually looking at the picture closer, there does seem to be sound-effects for movement on the Amaterasu flames, so perhaps it does continue as some type of fireball, when it misses the target that the Uchiha is trying to hit. However I don't think this is enough to say for sure that this is the case, but enough to make me re-consider that it might be plausible. 

So what was your point with the fire-ball anyway?



> You just shot yourself in the foot. IF that's true then that means it's impossible for you to claim that itachi can't hit oonoki with his amaterasu or oonoki would be out of itachi's range since it's almost impossible to measure the distance oonoki is away or the distance itachi's furthest amaterasu is away.


You do realize I said measure, as in find out exactly how many meters something is. However you can still obviously tell when something is pretty far away, like when Onoki is flying, since Kishi draws the people on the ground as specks, indicating Onoki is at a fairly high altitude.

So basically I just meant that if something is between short or mid-range, it's hard to tell which one it falls closer to. 



> The amaterasu reached greater than 2 levels down of the uchiha complex, that's more than enough distance to hit oonoki and to debunk the databook claim that it's a close range technique


But according to you isn't the flames just fireballing in a certain direction at that point, due to missing the target? So that wouldn't be the traditional Amaterasu anymore, which is when the black flames appear directly on the target, that would just be the after effects of a failed Amaterasu.

And yes I suppose if your fire ball theory is correct that would mean the black-flames could travel beyond short, fireball style, but that is infinitely less dangerous and much easier to avoid than when the flames appear directly on the target. I mean I have no reason to believe Onoki wouldn't easily evade or block the Fire-ball as it travels the distance towards him.



> Other than merely asserting that "you are wrong" with the bolded, I don't see how any of this contradicts the reasoning that i've given in that post. If mei cast a hidden mist on the battlefield, and oonoki was able to use that to his advantage due to his experience while the other kages were not, then obviously madara would only comment on oonoki's experience being the reason why he beat the clones and why the other kages didn't.


Because it wouldn't be just due to Onoki's experience in that instance. It would be due to Onoki's Exp and Mei's Jutsu. Madara has alwaus givin credit to multiple Gokage for a combo before:
Here we see Onoki 
Here we see Onoki 
Here we see Onoki 

So there is no reason to expect him to only credit Onoki, if Onoki benefited from combo'ing off another Gokage's Jutsu.



> Um because not only does shousen differ from its usual healing circle around the medic's palm but it turned into a full body aura, which is completely different from merely adding bolts to tsunade's jutsu. And can you post the scan of these bolts being added?


Actually you know what the Aura seems to be when Tsunade is using Mitotic Regeneration:
square boxes
Here we see Onoki 

So  she was probably using Mitotic Regeneration on Onoki, which is again a medical recovery technique, not a chakra boosting technique.



> That's what you are trying to say based on your reasoning, but that's not where your reasoning gets you. Your reasoning that oonoki, despite tsunade being there to heal him, still believes that due to him having low chakra, that this well be his last attack would lead you to the conclusion that tsunade isn't significantly boosting his chakra levels. If tsunade could boost his chakra levels significantly then he would redact the statement that this will be my last attack.


I still have zero clue what your talking about. But I'll try to explain myself a bit clear by giving a hypotherical example and we'll see if this helps:

Let's say Onoki's Chakra at 100% is = 500
Let's say Giant Jinton Cube requires 350 chakra to be used
Now let's say Onoki was at 150 chakra, before Tsunade healed him
Now let's say Tsunade had enough chakra to use medical Jutsu to heal him enough that he recoved 200 of his chakra, but not all of his chakra
So he'd than have 350, which is enough to use Jinton Cube, but nothing else beyond that.

However if Onoki was at 100% he'd have enough to use Jinton Cube, and than still have 150 chakra left to cast other Jutsu

Hene why he would say, because he is low on chakra, this is the last shot.



> Sure he is. Don't you think that if kishi believes a jinton cube way larger than another jinton cube would consume much more chakra to hold up?


Yes, but he's not thinking it in such a way that it relates to how long the cube can be held.


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## ueharakk (Oct 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It's relative to who Sandaime is fighting against. However traditionally I'd say a starting distance of 5-15m would be the advantageous range for him.


Well who is sandaime raikage fighting in this match?  Do you agree that this match starting with combatants 100 meters away from each other is advantageous to the raikage?



Turrin said:


> Why? I don't see the exclusivity of these two events.


why don't you see the exclusivity of these two events?  By your logic, if a SM Naruto clone beat Sandaime raikage then he's > sandaime raikage just like oonoki defeating 5 V3 susanoo clones means oonoki is > those beings.  That's what we've been arguing the whole time.



Turrin said:


> It's called looking at something from multiple perspectives, which is not a double standard.


um, it is a double standard if you only use on perspective per aspect of the matchup.  If you don't want to be guilty of the double standard, then you have to evaluate how oonoki stacks up to the 5 v3 susanoo clones by feats IN ADDITION to the other hype based assessment, and evaluate how oonoki's jutsu stacks up to itachi's directly IN ADDITION to the A>B>C logic.



Turrin said:


> The reason to not go all out at the start is to hold somethings in reserve, to be use at an opportune time & conserve chakra.


But this is nothing even close to going all out.  Oonoki solo'd 5 V3 clones according to you, he's up against a madara who's only using 1 V3 susanoo and backed up by 4 other kages, by your logic he'd not even be taking the battle seriously.



Turrin said:


> What your referring to is casting speed, that has nothing to do with the strength or level of Itachi's elemental Jutsu and instead speaks to a totally different aspect of Itachi's character; hand-seal speed. Never did I once say this proves anything about how Onoki would handle Itachi's hand-seal speed. For that we'd have to look elsewhere


obviously if the ability to counter an attack factors in the time it takes you to prepare your counter and the speed at which the attack is initialized on the opposition's time, then it's not a totally different aspect of itachi's character and it's definitely something that you have to include in your analysis else it's completely disingenuous to say oonoki beat katon + mokuton combo therefore itachi's weaker elemental jutsu are worthless.



Turrin said:


> Huh?


You are saying that oonoki can counter those techniques individually, but itachi can use more than one of those techniques at once, thus you have to include the word "alone" after saying oonoki counters X ability.



Turrin said:


> I didn't say 1 Clone > Itachi, I said 5 to 25 Clones > Itachi. Do you disagree with this? Do you think that Itachi would defeat 5 Madara Clones? Do you think Itachi would defeat 25 Madara clones?


That's just A>B>C logic.  No, I don't think edo itachi can defeat 25 susanoo clones, but that doesn't mean that he's any weaker than people that can defeat them since you need overwhelming firepower in order to do so, or a way to shut susanoo down.  Bee could beat them with his rapidfire bijuudama, yet itachi would beat bee.  



Turrin said:


> In that situation no, because that's what's shown in the manga cannon.


Well, then who's to say oonoki if put into that same situation would have done any better?



Turrin said:


> I said Onoki may be able to counter it, depending on how events of the battle played out, up until the point Kabuto used Haguki, considering the introduction of an entirely new element to the battle; Itachi replaced with Onoki.


Now you're just playing on skepticism, saying "because you changed X element of the battle, you don't know how it could turn out" thus you assert a 100% burden of proof on me to prove that there isn't any possible way for the battle to play out with oonoki countering the jutsu.  By that logic, any kage or almost any shinobi may be able to counter it because you simply don't know how the events will play out.



Turrin said:


> Nindaime Mizukage can't fly. Here we see Onoki still attempt to making use of flight against him; he uses Gaara's Sand plat-form (probably to conserve chakra), but he's still preferring to rely on flight.
> 
> Not to mention there is zero evidence that he only use flight to counteract his enemies flight. Because once again Onoki is the one to start matches using flight, rather than Onoki simply using flight in response to his enemies doing so.


Um, I think i'm repeating myself when I say this but I've never asserted oonoki doesn't fly, I said he doesn't fly at long range.  And that scan you've given shows exactly that.  He's not even 30 meters away from the clam when he tries to jinton it considering *how big he is compared to it.*



Turrin said:


> Onoki's even states the proper tactic for engaging the Edo Kage is start with long-range attacks:
> *how big he is compared to it.*


um, if this what you consider "long range" then I don't see how oonoki isn't susceptible to amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> He opted to keep his distance and than the next day he opt for a long-range strike. All of this shows Onoki's williningness to utilize long-range style tactics.


Wait, are you seriously asserting that oonoki and gaara were actually in battle against the edo kages on the first day of the war?  And no, when oonoki actually engaged the kages in battle, we see what range he fought them at.  The tactics that he decides to do outside of battle are irrelevant to what he'll do in battle when actually engaging an opponent.



Turrin said:


> Onoki knows enough about Sharingan and Uchiha, that he'd know they are big threat in CQC, so it would be dumb move for him to engage an Uchiha in CQC, when he has the ability to fight at long-range. Just like Itachi could decide to flee to long-range against Onoki, but it would be stupid off him to do so when he excels more at CQC.


Hold on, how in the world do you think oonoki weighted madara's susanoos if he didn't fight them in CQC?  Are you still saying that oonoki doesn't even have to touch them in order to make them weigh more or less?  And asside from weighted rocks, I've never implied that hed engage Itachi in CQC, only that oonoki won't be flying far away and out of range of itachi's techniques like amaterasu.



Turrin said:


> I'm not saying Onoki would fly away at the moment that Haguki was launched. I was saying that Onoki and Sasuke may be flying well before Haguki is even used.


Why would oonoki be flying with sasuke at any time in the fight?  Why would kabuto decide to launch hakugeki while oonoki is flying with sasuke?  



Turrin said:


> The brothers have no reason move into long-range when they are more suited to CQC & again they won the match. Onoki being a totally different fighter than them stylistically is more suited to long-range.


You missed the point.  If the brothers have long range techniques and are at long range, then obviously they'd use long range techniques until they got within close range, either way, by your logic, the brothers wouldn't give oonoki the chance to use hakugeki, the same logic that you are allocating oonoki's ability 



Turrin said:


> An accomplishment that did no damage to Itachi and Sasuke, and did not in anyway deter their victory. So why are they stupid?




let me ask you again, if kabuto has an ability that can shut down susanoo and immobilize Sasuke and itachi, and sasuke and itachi have the means to inhibit that ability or null it, WHY would they not choose to do so?  And why is something only deemed an accomplishment if it succeeds in damaging the opponent?  



Turrin said:


> Let's say Itachi and Sasuke tried to goto long-range.
> 
> -They'd have to be able to maintain this distance against SM Kabuto. I don't see them outrunning a Sage, who also has access to massive Summons and can warp the topography. It would be different if they had high-speed flight, but they don't. So I just see them wasting chakra in a fruitless attempt to escape to long-range.
> 
> ...


well lets look at the portions you just flat out left out.

If they were to fight outside of the cave, muki tensei would be severely hampered as well as hakugeki, they aren't in any danger of kabuto's technique that allows him to shut down their susanoo and force itachi to play a guessing game.  Based on oonoki's usual distance he fights his opponents at, I don't see how executing izanami would be any less possible in addition to the fact that if you want to make this an equal comparison between oonoki and itachi, you'd have to have oonoki out with the mindset to capture, and thus how would oonoki go about doing that if he's fighting at long range?  he'd also be restricted to close range since his only method of capture is weighted rocks.



Turrin said:


> Why in your explanation did only a little bit seep in enough to reach just his arm than? If Susano'o's defense was down at that point, why didn't more seep in? If Sasuke could simply strength his aura to block it, why didn't he do so to begin with instead of allowing some acid to seep in and burn his arm?


Why does susanoo's defense have to be down in order for a bit to seep in?  Sasuke didn't know that the acid had gotten through a portion of his susanoo at that point, thus is why in response to seeing his arm burn, he then strengthened his aura more.  Obviously he's not going to needlessly strengthen his aura if hes in a low chakra state.



Turrin said:


> I don't see any aura on the bottom period. That is what i'm asking proof of.
> 
> 
> None of that shows the aura on the bottom of Susano'o.


*How about this scan*, does this not show the aura is completely around susanoo and itachi himself?  How about *this scan *which shows the aura is around susanoo + sasuke and extends below the ribcage?


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## ueharakk (Oct 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Alright I concede this point, but there are lesser Mokuton's Madara should be able to use for Chakra absorption w/o having to pull out Wood-Dragon like Yamato's KGOD:


yet yamato actually needs prep for that technique to occur, it's never been created from pre-existing mokuton, he has to sit in that circle and hold that seal in order to do it, and an itachi who isn't rampaging like a mindless beast just gives it the yamato no orochi treatment.



Turrin said:


> Before Madara could use a follow up Mokuton, yeah, that's exactly what I think. The stupid lashback scene was probably mili-seconds as we've seen flashbacks occur in a fraction of time before. Than Onoki pulls out the beam Jinton incredibly quickly.


In order for that to be true, you'd have to assert that madara is so slow with mokuton that in the time it took the gokages to lose concsiouness, fall on the ground, oonoki to get up, fly in the air, prep and then use a jinton, madara wasn't even able to begin his mokuton technique as we see no mokuton being formed.  That's assuming that the dream was nigh instant.

It seems that I've just backed you into a corner and forced you to assert the ridiculous.



Turrin said:


> You like to throw PIS around a-lot, but it's not PIS, Onoki simply stone-willed himself back in the game and Jinton'd before the Mokuton could be extended into a lethal successive attack or the flames consumed him and the Gokage.
> 
> In Itachi's case he could not blow away FTW that quickly, so that would give Madara more time to fuck w/ him using FTW's Mokuton or successive attacks combo'd with FTW's Mokuton.


Well, this is only true if you adamantly assert that despite initiating a far greater mokuton in pretty *this scan *much an instant *madara can't do this* before oonoki recovers from getting smacked into the ground, then gets knocked out by the pollen, then has a dream, then awakens from the dream, gets up, flies into the air and uses a jinton.



Turrin said:


> When has Itachi ever demonstrated something like this? Could Yata be put on the bottom of Susano'o, before an attacks reaches Itachi? Even Madara who can straight up generate a defense from the bottom could not do so before Gaara's Sand grabbed him, I find it hard to imagine that Itachi will have enough time to do something like this.


]
Gaara's sand was lightened, madara doesn't have yaata, nor 4 kages on his side, and he was against vastly superior numbers.  Itachi is the master of preempting and coming up with strategies to deal with what his opponents will try to do, he knows susanoo's weakness and knows mokuton's abilities if he's given oonoki's knowledge (or just knowledge about mokuton in general).



Turrin said:


> The core is not rock, which is what they had to destroy. Hachibi's Bijuu Bomb alone would have done away with the rocks.


Is that your only argument?  Do you want to show how the core not being made of rock would in anyway shape or form result in an enton FRS, which has show far less immediate destructive ability than a 50% FRS, would have faired better than a KCM FRS + Yasaka magatama?  The hachibi's bijuudama alone could have been enough, heck bee can fire 4 at a time which easily trumps their combined attack, that doesn't mean anything, the purpose of their attack was 



Turrin said:


> Actually looking at the picture closer, there does seem to be sound-effects for movement on the Amaterasu flames, so perhaps it does continue as some type of fireball, when it misses the target that the Uchiha is trying to hit. However I don't think this is enough to say for sure that this is the case, but enough to make me re-consider that it might be plausible.
> 
> So what was your point with the fire-ball anyway?


if its true, then there's two points:
1) amaterasu isn't a close range technique unless you consider the distance the fireballs traveled as "close range"
2) amaterasu could have been used on chibaku tensei since the fireballs would have been sucked into the ball.



Turrin said:


> You do realize I said measure, as in find out exactly how many meters something is. However you can still obviously tell when something is pretty far away, like when Onoki is flying, since Kishi draws the people on the ground as specks, indicating Onoki is at a fairly high altitude.
> 
> So basically I just meant that if something is between short or mid-range, it's hard to tell which one it falls closer to.


okay that's something i can agree with.



Turrin said:


> But according to you isn't the flames just fireballing in a certain direction at that point, due to missing the target? So that wouldn't be the traditional Amaterasu anymore, which is when the black flames appear directly on the target, that would just be the after effects of a failed Amaterasu.
> 
> And yes I suppose if your fire ball theory is correct that would mean the black-flames could travel beyond short, fireball style, but that is infinitely less dangerous and much easier to avoid than when the flames appear directly on the target. I mean I have no reason to believe Onoki wouldn't easily evade or block the Fire-ball as it travels the distance towards him.


the flames don't appear directly on the target, then in fact can't unless you believe Ei can see the future.  And the fireballs would not be infinitely easier to avoid, if you look at the scan the flames already reach that distance long before itachi is able to land amaterasu on sasuke's wing, a sasuke who's much faster than oonoki in base, let alone in his cursed seal form.



Turrin said:


> Because it wouldn't be just due to Onoki's experience in that instance. It would be due to Onoki's Exp and Mei's Jutsu. Madara has alwaus givin credit to multiple Gokage for a combo before:
> *madara can't do this*
> *madara can't do this*
> *madara can't do this*
> ...


in all of those scans, we have a gokage member intentionally being part of a planned combination attack.  Here oonoki would be using a pre-existing jutsu or circumstance that was not directly intended for him to utilize in the way that he did.  Basically he's just taking advantage of situations that present themselves, not causing the situations thus madara would only credit oonoki.



Turrin said:


> Actually you know what the Aura seems to be when Tsunade is using Mitotic Regeneration:
> square boxes
> *madara can't do this*
> 
> So  she was probably using Mitotic Regeneration on Onoki, which is again a medical recovery technique, not a chakra boosting technique.


That's not only a different aura, but that's tsunade siphoning off her chakra to the many katsuya's around konoha.  And as you can see the scan kind of debunks your assertion since we see the aura coming from her, but no aura coming into the shinobi she's healing, yet with oonoki it's the other way around.



Turrin said:


> I still have zero clue what your talking about. But I'll try to explain myself a bit clear by giving a hypotherical example and we'll see if this helps:
> 
> Let's say Onoki's Chakra at 100% is = 500
> Let's say Giant Jinton Cube requires 350 chakra to be used
> ...


okay now let me explain my part.  If oonoki states that the reason this will probably be his last attack is due to his low chakras, then it wouldn't be Tsunade gives him 200 while he has 150, it would be tsunade gives him 50 and he has 150, because regardless how much chakra tsunade gives him, this is going to be his last attack based on his low quantity of chakra thus tsunade can't be giving him a significant amount of chakra because that would imply he'd have enough to use more than one attack.



Turrin said:


> Yes, but he's not thinking it in such a way that it relates to how long the cube can be held.


Why not?  Does kishi believe size of jinton = more chakra to use/hold?  If so, then the length of time it can be held is determined by the amount of chakra oonoki has, the size of the jutsu, and the rate at which it consumes his chakra.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Oonoki doesn't even have a counter to Amaterasu, so he's dead once Itachi decides to use that.
> 
> Lol, Mei.


Already dealt with you earlier. Bunshins counter it just fine. As I showed, Itachi has never attacked more than one target with amaterasu. Bunshins counter it just fine.




IchLiebe said:


> And if he wasn't there the Kages would've been fucked at 'go'. Still doesn't deny the fact that he was able 5 Susanoo clones at once, may have been off panel, but we know for a fact that Madara sent 5 mokuton clones cloaked in Susanoo(a higher degree then of Itachi's) to fight each kage individually.Still Amaterasu must be prepped then fired, Onooki blitzd Sasuke.
> Deidara-Long Range
> Madara- Proficient in all ranges.
> Nidaime- Long rang
> ...


I don't think I disagree with anything said in this section. In fact, it seems that we have the same mindset on all this shit.

I find Oonoki to be skilled at both close quarters and long range. Jinton can be used at close range and mid-long range. The clones and flight to enhance his speed along with golems and the weight adjustment to enhance strength makes Oonoki a vicious CQC combatant and long range fighter. Personally he beats Fanfic Itachi ("Healthy" Itachi) more times than not.

He at least knows who Uchiha Itachi is. But like you said, he can increase the distance once he finds out he is Uchiha Itachi. He still knows the dangers of the sharingan. And he has to activate it. Once he does (assuming he doesn't recognize him) he will increase the distance. Why'd you quote me? We are on the same page ha.

The argument is that clones and crows go and find her for Itachi to kill her. The obvious problem with that is with limited visibility yonton/acid mist takes care of any little ass birds and fucks the clones up too. Giant suitons or large yontons for the clones if need be. Mei seems to have a pretty nice chakra supply and clones will just drain Itachi putting him back at square one except with less chakra.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Rosen, I just listed everyone of Onoki's fights in general, not just his Gokage battle.
> 
> Onoki never feinted Deidara. That was a clone Akatsuchi, Onoki's big companion, made and sent at Deidara. Chapter 514ish for your reference.
> 
> ...


I realized. And Muu and Deidara he tried to fight long range. I am not calling what happened with Sasuke even a fight.

Actually it was Oonoki who used the clone. It was Deidara who assumed it was Akatsuchi. The fanbook gives the credit to Oonoki. Look it up.

Actually twice. And it matters not. Has he ever fought an amaterasu user in a legitimate one on one battle? Of course he isn't going to fight the exact same in every fight he comes across. But he clearly used clones on more than one occasion. It is also worth noting that a MAJORITY of Oonoki's battles have been off panel. That includes against Madara, Deidara, Muu, etc. And in two of three he used clones for sure. The other is speculation and he had a team behind him.

Hmm? The definition of long range combat is being out of an opponent's type range.

He has made clones in the manga thus it isn't OOC. You don't seem to know what OOC  means. It means out of character. If it is done in the manga then it becomes IC. He has made clones in the manga. So it is IC. He has done it more than once in fact. His only not two not completely 1 on 1 fights. Even Muu wasn't completely 1 on 1 at points.

He has clones on the field so no worries about being caught. And he knows to avoid eye contact as I have said before. And he can stay out of range as said before.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 29, 2013)

Turrin, you say Onoki knows to avoid cqc with Uchiha.

Yet, I recall Onoki not only confronted but went within 5 meters of an Uchiha whom possesses _Amaterasu_ and _Enton_ at the kage summit.

Didn't Onoki also weigh down 5 Madara clones whom were using Susanoo? By touching them? Clones I might add that, for all Onoki knew, could have also had access to other Mangekyou jutsu such as Amaterasu seeing as how they were already using Susanoo. But Onoki still flew up to them in cqc and weighed them down. Onoki seems like one hell of a risk taker.

Also, if what you interpret to be flying high is how far away Onoki stayed from Troll Kage's clam, that isn't far at all and should be within Amaterasu range.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 29, 2013)

> And Muu and Deidara he tried to fight long range. I am not calling what happened with Sasuke even a fight.


If your definition of long range is "outside of the opponent's range", then no, he didn't try or even attempt to fight outside their range, as Muu and Deidara were still within range of attacking him always. No comments were made suggesting he was even attempting such tactics.

Not calling what happened with Sasuke a fight is fair. Onoki going that close to a Amaterasu/Enton is still something he undeniably did in character, and it has to be factored in if we are guesstimating how he acts as a character.



> Actually it was Oonoki who used the clone. It was Deidara who assumed it was Akatsuchi. The fanbook gives the credit to Oonoki. Look it up.


Kishimoto regularly narrates what is happening through his characters. If Deidara said it was Akatsuchi's clones that's Kishi's words. Kishi had no reason to be misleading there. Don't see how this one's debatable. Deidara says "And yours(referring to Onoki's clone) was a rock clone made by Akatsuchi". 
it.
If you have a scan of Kishi writing something different I'll look at it though.

A





> actually twice. And it matters not. Has he ever fought an amaterasu user in a legitimate one on one battle? Of course he isn't going to fight the exact same in every fight he comes across. But he clearly used clones on more than one occasion. It is also worth noting that a MAJORITY of Oonoki's battles have been off panel. That includes against Madara, Deidara, Muu, etc. And in two of three he used clones for sure. The other is speculation and he had a team behind him.


Onoki's only used clones once. Where not deducing how _exactly_ he will act were guessing how _likely_ it is he does something. 

Fights being offpanel are irrelevant for our purposes, as neither side of the argument can claim whether or not he did something off panel. And he's fought mangekyou users twice and went within cqc distance both times. He's just lucky Madara didn't have Amaterasu and Sasuke chose not to use it. Onoki doesn't know whether or not Itachi even has mangekyou at this battle's start.



> Hmm? The definition of long range combat is being out of an opponent's type range.


Not sure where this was said but if its true then he wasn't doing that against Deidara or Muu.



> He has made clones in the manga thus it isn't OOC. You don't seem to know what OOC means. It means out of character. If it is done in the manga then it becomes IC. He has made clones in the manga. So it is IC. He has done it more than once in fact. His only not two not completely 1 on 1 fights. Even Muu wasn't completely 1 on 1 at points.


That's not how NBD's IC works.

If I say Itachi IC goes for genjutsu at the start of every battle, I can substantiate that with all of his fights and you would indeed see Itachi goes for genjutsu at the outset of every battle or is extremely likely to. If I say Itachi IC goes for Izanami at the start of each battle that would be false, because he is not likely to do such as thing immediately IC even if he has used Izanami in the manga. This of course changes depending on pre-battle knowledge.

Following this logic, Onoki has a very low chance of using clones and 0 chance of feinting if he does use one since Onoki has never feinted in character. 



> He has clones on the field so no worries about being caught. And he knows to avoid eye contact as I have said before. And he can stay out of range as said before.


-Why is it likely Onoki IC will have clones on the field against a target he has nothing but basic knowledge on? 
-Clones don't matter if Itachi just uses Amaterasu on the original.
-If the clones do matter because Onoki will feint, why is it likely he'll use feint tactics when IC he never, ever does? He doesn't even know what attacks his opponent has.
-Why is it likely Onoki will fly out of range of an opponent's attack range when he has never, ever done so IC? By that logic Itachi lights Onoki up immediately with Amaterasu before he goes far away. It's very unlikely Itachi would do that IC though, so I don't claim such things.

-Onoki stared at Madara's sharingan and proclaimed "he's got the mangekyou sharingan" if I remember correctly. Judging from what he's done in the past, it's likely he'll do the same against Itachi here and subsequently get Tsukiyomi'd.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

@ueharakk

These post are getting way too long and I don't have time to go, point for point right now, plus I feel certain things are extraneous at this point. So I'm going to try and shorten things down to the important issues:

@the issue of Sandaime Raikage vs "dat"-clone - give me the conditions of this hypothetical match like your making a BD match, than I can answer who it's fair or not fair to. 

@the issue of Sandaime Raikage compared to Onoki thing - I still don't see what Onoki beating Clones, has to do with  a Clone beating Raikage? I don't get how those events are connected whatsoever. What does one prove about the other?

@the issue of stand-alone feats - Literally my only objective with including those into my original post, was to show that Onoki's level is not so far off from Itachi's that he'd get raped, as people were claiming. All this other stuff has become a mess of both of us arguing semantics. So to me the important issue here, is do you think Itachi would rape Onoki; if not than I think the rest of this can be dropped and we'll have to agree to disagree on the semantics, which has become a circular argument to me. 

@the issue of putting Onoki in Itachi's shoes - You said "By that logic, any kage or almost any shinobi may be able to counter it *because you simply don't know how the events will play out*." The bold is my entire point and is why I do not like the idea of trying force characters to fit into a scenario that occurred halfway through a battle or something like that. I played along, with you giving these examples for awhile, because I was having fun with thinking about it, but at this point they have gotten increasingly convoluted and too time consuming when they have little pay off for how the match would go down, so I don't think there is any reason to discuss them further.

@the issue of Onoki's range -  Onoki  clearly demonstrated in the war he was quite comfortable staying at long-range for an entire day against his enemies and even suggested the strategy of attacking them from Long-range. So that alone proves Onoki's willingness to use a long-range strategy. For the record I define long-range in this instance off of Onoki, he said he'd attack the Edo Kage at what he considers long-range, so to him this range [2], must be long, and thus that's what I consider long-range for the purpose of talking about Onoki. I don't see why he wouldn't employ this strategy against Itachi, considering Onoki more than most knows the dangers of an Uchiha in CQC. 

@the issue of Amaterasu's range - I won't consider the fire-balls if they exist to be the technique Amaterasu anymore. Amaterasu is the technique to make flames appear where the eye focuses, if that misses, than what you got left is just the black-flames.  So the fire-ball explanation would actually explain why Amaterasu is short-range, yet the black-flames have reached further ranges than that. 

@issue of the Black Flame fire-balls vs Onoki - The Fire-balls do seem fast, but according to your explanation they are linear, so someone only needs to evade a bit to the side and they will miss. Also according to your explanation they would be slower than CS-Sasuke correct? Sasuke has a 4.5 in speed and CS enhancing it even further, so he's fast. However Kimimaro had a 4.5 in speed and CS enhancing his speed even further, yet Part I Gaara's Sand kept up with his speed [1] [2] [3]. Deidara whose flight speed is <= Onoki's [1] was shown out-speeding Part II Kaze Kage Gaara's Sand w/ his flight [1] [2]. So this tells us that Onoki's flight speed is at least just as great as Sasuke's CS-speed, if not greater. However there are actually another thing in Onoki's favor and that is the distance the fireball will need to cover against gravity to reach flying Onoki, which will give Onoki even more time to react. So Onoki should be more than able to side-dodge the fire-ball in-time to avoid being hit w/ his flight speed. Or Onoki can pull out a golem to block, the speed at which these can be pulled out is insane; Akatsuchi pulled one out in time to block a point blank clay-explosive, after Deidara initiated the Katsu-seal [1] [2], and we can expect Onoki to be even better with this technique. So that is another viable option.

@the issue of the aura - Looks very similar to the Aura present in the first Anime Scan I showed you, but it seems like that Aura is not present in the manga. So I don't know anymore, other than that being a good example of Aura's being arbitrarily added for artistic flare (on the anime's part). So basically we can't say what the Aura is from, it could be Mitotic Regen, it could be artist flare, it could be from Onoki powering up a massive Jinton. Etc... So really no point going around in circles about the issue anymore.

@this point - 





> okay now let me explain my part. If oonoki states that the reason this will probably be his last attack is due to his low chakras, then it wouldn't be Tsunade gives him 200 while he has 150, it would be tsunade gives him 50 and he has 150, because regardless how much chakra tsunade gives him, this is going to be his last attack based on his low quantity of chakra thus tsunade can't be giving him a significant amount of chakra because that would imply he'd have enough to use more than one attack.


If I'm understanding this correctly than it seems to me that your model could also be correct. However regardless of which model, used the implication remains the same; that is it because Onoki is low on chakra that this the last shot, which means if he normally can use this Jinton Cube and other Jutsu w/ his 100% chakra supply. 

Basically I don't really care how the numbers fall; whether Tsunade restored Onoki, more or less. What I care about is that statement very clearly implies Onoki is capable of using this large Jinton Cube if he's at full chakra, which is the subject we've been discussing.

@this point - 





> Why not? Does kishi believe size of jinton = more chakra to use/hold? If so, then the length of time it can be held is determined by the amount of chakra oonoki has, the size of the jutsu, and the rate at which it consumes his chakra.


There is no way in hell I think Kishi has ever once considered a rate at which it chakra consumption happens. To me Kishi's brain is like this

"durp..durp..Jinton large...so Chakra cost lot...durp"
"time for Back-flash durp"
"reader never guess, tobi OBito, that p*d*p**** derp"


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> If your definition of long range is "outside of the opponent's range", then no, he didn't try or even attempt to fight outside their range, as Muu and Deidara were still within range of attacking him always. No comments were made suggesting he was even attempting such tactics.
> 
> Not calling what happened with Sasuke a fight is fair. Onoki going that close to a Amaterasu/Enton is still something he undeniably did in character, and it has to be factored in if we are guesstimating how he acts as a character.
> 
> ...





Muu/Deidara are long range combatants who fly. Not really possible to ever get out of their range. So that argument doesn't make sense.

He flew into the face of an Uchiha who was clearly in pain, exhausted, and pretty beat up. With a half melted rib cage Susano and attacked without warning. He had clear knowledge that Sasuke had been fighting Kages for hours. If Itachi is in a similar state than this situation is important. However, Itachi won't be this fucked up until the end of the fight and Oonoki won't be at full health. Oonoki's actions are only relevant if Itachi starts out half dead, they start out close, he gets the jump, and Oonoki is at full health.

I would think so too but characters are wrong all the time. It is in a fanbook. Forgive me for not looking it up. Lazy as hell. It is my responsibility to look it up I realize since it is my point and you have zero obligation to. But if you do, that would be the shit.

Well actually twice. And both are in his only 1 on 1 on fights. Even if he did it once, then that is once out of two 1 on 1 fights. So 50-100 percent. Highly likely.

Because they are also long range combat specialists. This is the entire point of long range combat in general. Attacking someone while minimizing risk to yourself. Hence the point of bullets over swords.

Oonoki has used clones in both his one on one fights. He also used a feint. We did not see the use of his clones fully against Muu to know what he was going to do with them. He may have used them as bait to lure Muu out of hiding and then attacking. Thus a feint. So it is highly likely Oonoki will use clones/feints. 

Using your logic, it appears that Oonoki is likely to use clones in 1 on 1 battles.

-He has used clones in both of his 1 on 1 battles.
-Itachi can't tell the difference between the original and the clones.
-The only time on panel we see the utilization of said clones it was in a feint effort against Deidara. Might have used them to feint against Muu but did not see. Not knowing what attacks one's opponent has gives Oonoki the BEST reason to use them. Not knowing his abilities so he protects himself from the onset.
-The definition of long range combat. People in battle, wars, etc fire guns, shoot missles, drop bombs, etc because they are able to do damage to a target while posing the least risk to themselves. It is inherent in the very definition of long range combat that one wants to do damage to the opponent while risking the least amount of harm to him/herself.
-Did he? Can't recall. He was likely extremely far away though. He also yelled at the alliance telling them to avoid eye contact. Genjutsu has only been used from pretty close up so he likely knows that being far is okay. Which further supports the notion of maintaining some distance. Doesn't have to be ridiculous of course but perhaps 10 meters or more most of the time. Looked it up real quick though. Just said, "Did he already switch to the Mangekyou?" after Susano came out. So he maybe was avoiding eye contact from even far away.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Kishimoto regularly narrates what is happening through his characters. If Deidara said it was Akatsuchi's clones that's Kishi's words. Kishi had no reason to be misleading there. Don't see how this one's debatable. Deidara says "And yours(referring to Onoki's clone) was a rock clone made by Akatsuchi".
> [2]
> If you have a scan of Kishi writing something different I'll look at it though.



Naruto-Wikai, "Akatsuchi was originally credited with the use of this technique (rock-clone) in the manga during the battle at the Island Turtle against Deidara's explosion. However, in the tankobōn, Ōnoki is credited with its use."


I also have the volume and though I haven't read it in a while, i'm 99% sure it credited Onoki as Wikai cites. 

I have no clue what the deal is with the fan-book tho.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 29, 2013)

^^I took the tanbokon as fanbook. What is that if you don't mind me asking?


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> ^^I took the tanbokon as fanbook. What is that if you don't mind me asking?



The tanbokon is the Volume Release, basically a book of x-many chapters, that is released usually a couple of months after the weekly shonen jump release. Some-times volumes contain extra panels or content that Kishi wanted to add into the weekly release, but couldn't do to time constraints. However the Tanbokon (or volume) release also often has Kishi changing things he made a mistake on in the weekly release. For example he made the mistake of Deidara saying Akatsuchi used the Rock-Clone, so in the Tanbokon (or volume) he changed it to Onoki. So in essence in the volume it's the same exact page as in the manga, except Deidara says Onoki instead of Akatsuchi.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 29, 2013)

I can't confirm it myself.

But I'll take your guys word for it and assume Onoki did use a clone and feint Deidara and the manga is a mistranslation. I'll weigh that in concerning Onoki's likelihood of feinting Itachi before I post again.


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