# 13 Year Old Itachi vs. Tsunade



## Ersa (Oct 22, 2014)

*Location*: Uchiha Hideout
*Distance*: 5m
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill.
*Knowledge*: None for Tsunade, full for Itachi.
*Restrictions*:
- Mangekyo Sharingan is restricted.

This is the Itachi that fodderstomped Orochimaru without MS, can he do the same to his equal?


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## Cognitios (Oct 22, 2014)

Itachi does so with more ease than Orochimaru.
Orochimaru has at least some mid-long range attacks and isn't as linear a figher as Tsunade is. 
From 5 meters there will be immediate hand to hand combat, considering Itachi is in the ANBU I assume he has his shoto on him, thus he slices Tsunade literally to pieces. His speed is above Orochimaru's at this point. Orochimaru's speed is at the very least on par, if not superior to Tsunade's, and Itachi's speed at that age was too much for him.
From 5 meters Itachi activates 3 tomoe sharingan, effortly evades anything Tsunade throws at him and he slices and dices with a mixture of kenjutsu and genjutsu.
inb4 katsuya, tsunade has no time to summon her from 5 meters away as itachi is pressuring her until she dies.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 23, 2014)

MS is prohibited, how can Itachi fight without it.


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## Cognitios (Oct 23, 2014)

> MS is prohibited, how can Itachi fight without it.


The same way he beat a sannin and took on Kakashi + Naruto + Sakura + Chiyo


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

13 year old Itachi > Sannin. 

No knowledge = Genjutsu + decapitation.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2014)

Tsunade fodder stomps with 1 finger. Or, she summon Katsuyu to destroy him, and when only his dead body on the ground, Tsunade take a shit on him and leave.
Unless people think itachi is somehow with sharingan superior to madara with EMS/Rinnegan,  wood, and ET and all those clones, he couldn't even kill her with his PS for crying out loud.


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## Prince Vegeta (Oct 23, 2014)

^ lol the 5 kages couldn't make madara fight seriously for the most part and youre saying madara couldn't kill her with PS? 

they weren't even worth killing Madara got bored and thought it was time to hunt for Kurama.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2014)

Prince Vegeta said:


> ^ lol the 5 kages couldn't make madara fight seriously for the most part and youre saying madara couldn't kill her with PS?
> 
> they weren't even worth killing Madara got bored and thought it was time to hunt for Kurama.



lol, you know that fan-fiction, right?


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## Bonly (Oct 23, 2014)

Only way Itachi can win is by cutting off her head which he'll only get a good chance to do if she's in a genjutsu. So unless he catches Tsunade in the same genjutsu and cuts off her head faster then Tsunade can break the genjutsu, he'll lose


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 23, 2014)

At first I thought it was an Itachi stomp but after thinking it through, if tsunade can survive until she deals with the genjutsu then she has a good chance.

Itachi is better at cqc but that won't matter against her insane strength.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 23, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi does so with more ease than Orochimaru.
> Orochimaru has at least some mid-long range attacks and isn't as linear a figher as Tsunade is.
> From 5 meters there will be immediate hand to hand combat, considering Itachi is in the ANBU I assume he has his shoto on him, thus he slices Tsunade literally to pieces. His speed is above Orochimaru's at this point. Orochimaru's speed is at the very least on par, if not superior to Tsunade's, and Itachi's speed at that age was too much for him.
> From 5 meters Itachi activates 3 tomoe sharingan, effortly evades anything Tsunade throws at him and he slices and dices with a mixture of kenjutsu and genjutsu.
> inb4 katsuya, tsunade has no time to summon her from 5 meters away as itachi is pressuring her until she dies.



I think you're forgetting the circumstances of Itachi's meeting with Orochimaru. The latter clearly never sought to really wound Itachi and it's obvious that he went straight to the body takeover process, which Itachi was able to overpower due to his Sharingan and genjutsu prowess. Him being able to exploit Orochimaru's lack of intent to kill as well as the opening provided by his genjutsu doesn't mean that he was necessarily stronger than him. 

Interpreting that meeting as a display of superiority on Itachi's part is like Karin berating Sasuke for taking so much damage against Deidara despite 'being the man who killed Orochimaru'. There's a lot of context behind the scenes missing and it was clear that neither examples were real fights.

Beside this, Orochimaru was also able to escape with presumably no further damage and just a missing hand. In this case, it can either be assumed that Itachi didn't have the intention to fight and just let him get away, or Orochimaru was skilled enough to escape his opponent while being unable to execute any form of jutsu.



Hussain said:


> Tsunade fodder stomps with 1 finger. Or, she summon Katsuyu to destroy him, and when only his dead body on the ground, Tsunade take a shit on him and leave.
> Unless people think itachi is somehow with sharingan superior to madara with EMS/Rinnegan,  wood, and ET and all those clones, he couldn't even kill her with his PS for crying out loud.



Please don't tell me you legitimately think that, had Madara really felt like it, he wouldn't have been able to kill Tsunade?


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi stomps with these conditions. Low diff at worst.

How is Tsunade avoiding getting caught in a genjutsu especially when she has zero knowledge of Itachi's prowess? 

Head stab GG.


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## Prince Vegeta (Oct 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> lol, you know that fan-fiction, right?







*Spoiler*: __ 









Madara could have just killed them right after this ,but to him Tsuande and the rest of Gokage weren't strong enough for him to mean shit, he literally got bored lol and left that fight.

On topic, No knowledge for Tsunade?

Itachi wins via Genjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi would have owned this fight under fair conditions.

But with the intel gap this extreme, he literally no-diffs Tsunade like he did to Orochimaru.


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## Vice (Oct 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think you're forgetting the circumstances of Itachi's meeting with Orochimaru. The latter clearly never sought to really wound Itachi and it's obvious that he went straight to the body takeover process, which Itachi was able to overpower due to his Sharingan and genjutsu prowess. Him being able to exploit Orochimaru's lack of intent to kill as well as the opening provided by his genjutsu doesn't mean that he was necessarily stronger than him.
> 
> Interpreting that meeting as a display of superiority on Itachi's part is like Karin berating Sasuke for taking so much damage against Deidara despite 'being the man who killed Orochimaru'. There's a lot of context behind the scenes missing and it was clear that neither examples were real fights.
> 
> Beside this, Orochimaru was also able to escape with presumably no further damage and just a missing hand. In this case, it can either be assumed that Itachi didn't have the intention to fight and just let him get away, or Orochimaru was skilled enough to escape his opponent while being unable to execute any form of jutsu.



Every bit of this. The effort is appreciated but its just going to go in one ear and out the other with Itachi's fans in favor of fan fiction I'm afraid.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Please don't tell me you legitimately think that, had Madara really felt like it, he wouldn't have been able to kill Tsunade?



Not at all, but she survived nevertheless. 


Prince Vegeta said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and that supposed to prove what? 
She survived his PS's attack, what does itachi have to come even close? 

- yet, he used his PS twice. 
as a matter of fact he was lucky that he's an ET, otherwise he would have been killed by the last attack with the huge Jinton. 

- Yeah, 5 of madara's clones with EMS, Rinnegan, Wood, and better stats at everything couldn't do it, but 13 year old itachi will.


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## Ersa (Oct 23, 2014)

Did Orochimaru not admit Itachi was superior though? 

We only have evidence of base Itachi trashing Orochimaru, there wasn't an MS that fight. And when MS did come out Orochimaru got one shot by blind, death bed Itachi


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## Prince Vegeta (Oct 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not at all, but she survived nevertheless.
> 
> 
> and that supposed to prove what?
> ...



It's not a matter of Madara not being able to do it it's that he didn't care enough to do it. 

him using PS twice had nothing to do with the Gokage lol, Kabuto was Izanami'd by Itachi at that time and that made  Madara lose his PS form. 

If he wasn't ET he wouldn't have let the fight drag on for so long and would have fought more seriously instead of toying around.

and What makes you think that Kishi would let Madara kill any of the good guys?  

Obviously madara was able to kill them but didn't cuz they were irrelevant.


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

*I dont think a non-MS Sharingan genjutsu will hold Tsunade for long, if at all. Atlantic Storm made some good points about the Oro & Itachi encounter.

At 5 meters, whose to say that Itachi's genjutsu will get off before Tsunade kills him with a punch ?*


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> At 5 meters, whose to say that Itachi's genjutsu will get off before Tsunade kills him with a punch ?



The fact that Itachi has pre-cog, is faster and only needs a quick gaze at Tsunade's eyes in order to put her in a genjutsu.


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## Ruse (Oct 23, 2014)

Wouldn't Tsunade just send him flying?


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> The fact that Itachi has pre-cog, is faster and only needs a quick gaze at Tsunade's eyes in order to put her in a genjutsu.




*Tsunade may not have intel on Itachi himself in this thread, but by nature she should have some intel on the Uchiha clan and their sharingan prowess. 

I just don't see Itachi instant dodging and genjutsu GG here. Even if he did, Itachi would have to cut her head off before she released the genjutsu.*

I just don't see it happening...


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> This is the Itachi that fodderstomped Orochimaru without MS



We have no reason to believe that the MS was never used (be it before, after, or both before and after) because we have no evidence that the panels we saw constituted the entirety of that fight.

As a further matter, taking off a hand doesn't nearly equate to "fodderstomping" _Orochimaru_ of all people.

It doesn't equate to that against Tsunade either, if it even happens, because his Kunai is certainly not as dangerous as the Kusanagi no Tsurugi, so to answer your question:



> Can he do the same to his equal?



No he cannot.




> Orochimaru's speed is at the very least on par, if not superior to Tsunade's, and Itachi's speed at that age was too much for him.



Itachi's sheer speed was never the problem, the problem was that the paralytic Genjutsu was slowing Orochimaru as he attempted to break it.

An 18 year old Itachi couldn't even knock out Kurenai before she raised her guard to block his kick (holding back is a non-issue regarding his speed because kicking her in the face wouldn't have killed her, and he wasn't above simply knocking out the Jōnin). Tsunade is far better at close-combat than Kurenai, stressing the importance of reading into and anticipating enemy movements in order to more effectively retaliate with her own and being far more familiar with the body's dynamics and motion mechanics by virtue of being the world's greatest medical ninja with as many years of experience as Part 1 Kurenai had years of being alive.

His speed shouldn't be too much of a problem, and then on top of that the strength, durability, and resilience disparities come in, meaning she's still going to decimate Itachi up close, and even if full knowledge tells him that, just _what_ is he supposed to revert to without access to his MS techniques?

Using Suitons and Katons? _They get knocked right back into his face, and can be tanked anyway_. Playing keep away? _She has far more energy than he does_. What happens if Tsunade bounces a thousand meters into the air and summons Katsuyu? He can't Genjutsu GG that thing because it's connected to Tsunade, and if it splits up into all those independent mega-tank slugs that number into the thousands he's even more screwed.

He is not going to win here.


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## DavyChan (Oct 23, 2014)

tsunade wins. i would explain why. but considering this is a troll thread on account of the options i won't bother to since u didn't bother to be intelligent.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi can't do anything. The moment he stabs her, any genjutsu will break and she'll just regenerate. He only stomps her with the Mangekyou.


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## LostSelf (Oct 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Yeah, 5 of madara's clones with EMS, Rinnegan, Wood, and better stats at everything couldn't do it, but 13 year old itachi will.



Wasn't Tsunade, like the other kages, at their mercy and the clones chose not to kill them?


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi gets anally raped. He doesn't even have the arm strength to decapitate Tsuande assuming he even goes for that instead of the arm.... Canonically.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Tsunade may not have intel on Itachi himself in this thread, but by nature she should have some intel on the Uchiha clan and their sharingan prowess.
> 
> I just don't see Itachi instant dodging and genjutsu GG here. Even if he did, Itachi would have to cut her head off before she released the genjutsu.*
> 
> I just don't see it happening...



but isn't safe to say orochimaru had the same general knowledge, if not more then tsunade??


anyway the only reason itachi wins is because op gave him full knowledge, with full knowledge itachi will know to decapitate her because of her regeneration powers.


without it itachi would probably lose due to her regeneration abilities, it would still be a very close battle and either side could pull the win.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Tsunade may not have intel on Itachi himself in this thread, but by nature she should have some intel on the Uchiha clan and their sharingan prowess.



I don't know how OP wants us to interpret the no knowledge part for Tsunade, but either way the result is the same.  



> I just don't see Itachi instant dodging and genjutsu GG here. Even if he did, Itachi would have to cut her head off before she released the genjutsu.


You don't see Itachi dodging an attack from a slower opponent? ok then.

Don't you realize that the instant Tsunade looks Itachi in the eyes she will be put under genjutsu?


> I just don't see it happening...


You wouldn't see Itachi defeating Konohamaru, so yeah, there's that. 



Likes boss said:


> He doesn't even have the arm strength to decapitate Tsuande assuming he even goes for that instead of the arm.... Canonically.



What in the world of fanfic is this? Itachi doesn't have enough arm strength to lop off a head? 

Tsunade doesn't have some crazy durability like the Raikages do.

Why would Itachi with full knowledge cut off an arm instead of head?


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> You don't see Itachi dodging an attack from a slower opponent? ok then.



*Tsunade could just smash the ground at the beginning of the fight and catch Itachi off guard by punching through some huge flying rocks when Itachi jumps to evade back...*



saikyou said:


> Don't you realize that the instant Tsunade looks Itachi in the eyes she will be put under genjutsu?



*I do realize that, if of course Itachi decides that is what he needs to do to even consider winning...
*


saikyou said:


> You wouldn't see Itachi defeating Konohamaru, so yeah, there's that.



*Thats a bit of a stretch *


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi puts her in a genjutsu and puts her to sleep.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Tsunade could just smash the ground at the beginning of the fight and catch Itachi off guard by punching through some huge flying rocks when Itachi jumps to evade back...*


top lel. You know it takes less time for Itachi to nail a kunai in Tsunade's face than for Tsunade to punch ground gg?

And Itachi is able to see how much chakra Tsunade's fist is packing and deduce how far he needs to evade. He has superior speed and pre-cog, remember?



> *I do realize that, if of course Itachi decides that is what he needs to do to even consider winning...
> *


To make the fight less annoying, yes, he will genjutsu Tsunade right from the start. *He has full knowledge*.



> *Thats a bit of a stretch *



:ignoramus


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## OG Appachai (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *I do realize that, if of course Itachi decides that is what he needs to do to even consider winning...
> *


itachi canonically started off the majority of his fights with genjutsu


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> top lel. You know it takes less time for Itachi to nail a kunai in Tsunade's face than for Tsunade to punch ground gg?



Kunai to the face gets healed pretty quick...Plus punching the ground gets Tsunade some distance for her to summon Katsuya. The ground would be busted up to a pretty good distance



saikyou said:


> And Itachi is able to see how much chakra Tsunade's fist is packing and deduce how far he needs to evade. He has superior speed and pre-cog, remember?



Sure....just leaves Tsuande time to summon Katsuya and have her spit acid everywhere


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Kunai to the face gets healed pretty quick...Plus punching the ground gets Tsunade some distance for her to summon Katsuya. The ground would be busted up to a pretty good distance


Tsunade is not immune to pain. Suddenly having kunai through her face does more than just make her flinch. Which creates an opening for Itachi who happens to yet again faster in every way (thinking, attacking, moving).

And why would Tsunade with no knowledge opt for Katsuyu immediately?



> Sure....just leaves Tsuande time to summon Katsuya and have her spit acid everywhere



You just said Tsunade was punching ground. She cannot summon at the same. Also Itachi would move before Tsunade actually punches (pre-cog) not after. Tsunade doesn't gain any extra time for herself, the second her fist is off the ground Itachi has already positioned himself. He is also able to throw ninja tools while evading.


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Tsunade is not immune to pain. Suddenly having kunai through her face does more than just make her flinch. Which creates an opening for Itachi who happens to yet again faster in every way (thinking, attacking, moving).



Tsunade has withstood much greater pain than a kunai, FYI. There's no indication that she couldnt block the kunai either, or if not, just tank it and heal...no problem there



saikyou said:


> And why would Tsunade with no knowledge opt for Katsuyu immediately?



Due to the general knowledge people of the Leaf would have (especially the older shinobi), Tsunade would at least know of the dangers fighting 1 v 1 against a Sharingan, whose part-way known for their visual genjutsu. Not having knowledge on Itachi himself doesn't change her knowledge of how to combat an Uchiha because there is little difference between Uchiha's if both posses only 3-T Sharingan. 

Tsunade could realize that smashing the ground to push Itachi away...and then summoning Katsuya could potentially grant her the distance the advantage here.




saikyou said:


> You just said Tsunade was punching ground. She cannot summon at the same.



Never implied such



saikyou said:


> Also Itachi would move before Tsunade actually punches (pre-cog) not after.



It would be milli second differences...besides that the blast radius would be great enough to force Itachi to dive back quite a ways



saikyou said:


> Tsunade doesn't gain any extra time for herself, the second her fist is off the ground Itachi has already positioned himself.



Itachi is not superman. 



saikyou said:


> He is also able to throw ninja tools while evading.



Not with boulders and rocks flying through the air...and doesn't matter. Weapons won't be much to Tsunade unless they are cutting her head off.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Tsunade is not immune to pain. Suddenly having kunai through her face does more than just make her flinch. Which creates an opening for Itachi who happens to yet again faster in every way (thinking, attacking, moving).



What is this.

Back in Part 1, Orochimaru sliced the shit out of her with a legendary, diamond-cutting sword, and she got back up and punched him in the face.

In the War Arc, a fucking Stage 3 Susano'o stabbed her with _both_ blades and she ignored them and floored it.

She even went through that shredder technique in base, called the wounds minor, and healed them up in a few seconds.

Itachi doing anything with a little ass Kunai knife is ridiculous.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Tsunade has withstood much greater pain than a kunai, FYI.


Feel free to give me a panel where Tsunade just shrugs of an attack that has impaled her face.


> There's no indication that she couldnt block the kunai either, or if not, just tank it and heal...no problem there


Do you understand how fast Itachi is with his hands? Sasuke and Kakashi were both unable to keep up with the speed of Itachi's hands and the former had to prepare seals on his wrists to be able to keep up with Itachi's shuriken/kunai throwing speed.



> Due to the general knowledge people of the Leaf would have (especially the older shinobi), Tsunade would at least know of the dangers fighting 1 v 1 against a Sharingan, whose part-way known for their visual genjutsu.


Why didn't Tsunade immediately summon KAtsuyu against Uchiha motherfucking Madara?


> Not having knowledge on Itachi himself doesn't change her knowledge of how to combat an Uchiha because there is little difference between Uchiha's if both posses only 3-T Sharingan.


Little difference between Uchihas if both posses three tomoe? Then how did Itachi lolstomp three Uchiha Jounin?


> Tsunade could realize that smashing the ground to push Itachi away...and then summoning Katsuya could potentially grant her the distance the advantage here.


Could realize? Doesn't help much. Tsunade doesn't start her fights by punching the ground. 





> Never implied such


uhm, yeah u did?




> It would be milli second differences...besides that the blast radius would be great enough to force Itachi to dive back quite a ways


Actually a lot more than milli second.




> Itachi is not superman.



He is better.




> Not with boulders and rocks flying through the air...and doesn't matter. Weapons won't be much to Tsunade unless they are cutting her head off.



You think Itachi is only able to throw shuriken/kunai linearly? Tell that to Nagato and KAbuto.


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Feel free to give me a panel where Tsunade just shrugs of an attack that has impaled her face.



Rocky listed better examples for me...



saikyou said:


> Do you understand how fast Itachi is with his hands?



Kunai speed is not MACH 10, even so, who cares, its either blocked or tanked and healed



saikyou said:


> Why didn't Tsunade immediately summon KAtsuyu against Uchiha motherfucking Madara?



Maybe because she had 4 other Kages, I dont know. It doesnt mean she can't or is unable to do such.



saikyou said:


> Little difference between Uchihas if both posses three tomoe? Then how did Itachi lolstomp three Uchiha Jounin?



You misunderstood me. I mean little difference between how the eyes work. Not about actual fighting prowess



saikyou said:


> Could realize? Doesn't help much. Tsunade doesn't start her fights by punching the ground.



I say Tsunade punches the ground from the start, nothing stopping her. Again this could be because of realizing Itachi is an Uchiha and she must take extra precautions , so punching the ground to summon Katsuya is a key move for her.




saikyou said:


> uhm, yeah u did?



Uhmm, no I didn't ?





saikyou said:


> Actually a lot more than milli second.



I disagree





saikyou said:


> You think Itachi is only able to throw shuriken/kunai linearly? Tell that to Nagato and KAbuto.




Again, Tsunade's Regen >>>>>>>> Kunai


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Rocky listed better examples for me...


So you can't huh? Thought so.




> *Kunai speed is not MACH 10,* even so, who cares, its either blocked or tanked and healed


what? 

You still haven't told me how Tsunade having a kunai through her face is not a major distraction.




> Maybe because she had 4 other Kages, I dont know. It doesnt mean she can't or is unable to do such.


And they were fighting against the man who was rival to the God of Shinobi...




> I say Tsunade punches the ground from the start, nothing stopping her. Again this could be because of realizing Itachi is an Uchiha and she must take extra precautions , so punching the ground to summon Katsuya is a key move for her.


you can keep saying that but it doesn't change the fact that nothing in the manga indicates she would act like that. 




> Again, Tsunade's Regen >>>>>>>> Kunai


-snip-

You said that flying rocks would block Itachi's ninja tools and I said that Itachi's tools can 

-snip-


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> So you can't huh? Thought so.



Unless you can't bother to read Rocky's comments, saving me time to type the same stuff..

*Rocky*

_"Back in Part 1, Orochimaru sliced the shit out of her with a legendary, diamond-cutting sword, and she got back up and punched him in the face.

In the War Arc, a fucking Stage 3 Susano'o stabbed her with both blades and she ignored them and floored it.

She even went through that shredder technique in base, called the wounds minor, and healed them up in a few seconds."_




saikyou said:


> what?
> 
> You still haven't told me how Tsunade having a kunai through her face is not a major distraction.



Tsunade has taken much greater pain and fought through it, nothing indicates that a simple kunai that may or may not hit Tsunade in the face is going to distract her enough for Itachi to cut her head off ( That is more fanfic than anything I've posted on this thread )




saikyou said:


> And they were fighting against the man who was rival to the God of Shinobi...



Madara has no relevance on this particular case. Just because Tsunade didn't instantly summon Katsuya, doesn't mean she couldn't have. If your relying on this 'In Character" argument, you might as well stop. This is BD, if Tsunade feels the need to summon Katsuya, like she would have to here, then she will summon her. In fact Tsunade has summoned Katsuya on just about every major altercation she has been in. There is no reason for her not to do the same here.






saikyou said:


> Do you have alzheimer's?



With the insults...



saikyou said:


> You said that flying rocks would block Itachi's ninja tools and I said that Itachi's tools can easily go around them.



The point is futile as the kunai isn't going to do crap to Tsunade....



saikyou said:


> Holy shit you're bad.



Again with the insults


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> What in the world of fanfic is this? Itachi doesn't have enough arm strength to lop off a head?
> 
> Tsunade doesn't have some crazy urability like the Raikages do.
> 
> Why would Itachi with full knowledge cut off an arm instead of head?



Idk why you're laughing like you actually know what you're talking about . That's cute .

•Tsunade comes out of light speed teleportation with minor cuts as opposed to the regular Shinobi being obliterated. 
• Tsunade takes Yasaka Magmata( Sussanos strongest projectile) with minor bruises.

So I don't see how you assume Itachi at age 13 is going to magically supersede the damage of a chakra enhanced Sussano Shiruken with a simple kunai  -even if it's directed towards a vital spot.

 I didn't actually notice the ridiculous knowledge advantage given to Itachi. Though once Itachi catches her with a sharingan Genjustu and fails at hacking her neck off, Id wager Tsuande  gets serious and summons Katsuyu on him.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

Tsunade had Sozo Saisei activated the whole time when she got teleported. She is not a durability freak. 

She isn't regenerating from having the back of her head (brain) stabbed with a kunai. 

-snip-


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## Bonly (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Tsunade had Sozo Saisei activated the whole time when she got teleported. She is not a durability freak.
> 
> She isn't regenerating from having the back of her head (brain) stabbed with a kunai.
> 
> Stop wanking.



Tsunade before being teleported didn't have Sozo Saisei active. Tsunade is making the handsign to use Sozo Saisei after she kicked Madara so yeah she took the damage quite a few cuts without using any regen jutsu.


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Tsunade had Sozo Saisei activated the whole time when she got teleported. She is not a durability freak.
> 
> She isn't regenerating from having the back of her head (brain) stabbed with a kunai.
> 
> -snip-



You still don't know what your talking about lol .

SS was activated after: use Sozo Saisei

Why would she not regenerate from that ? Her regeneration supersedes logic. She's been bisected on more then one occasion and continued to fight despite the fact that nerve cells are impossible to regenerate. Don't act like she's the average Shinobi with regeneration, she's more then that .


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Her regeneration supersedes logic.



That's a bit too much...


Btw I see that some people keep saying certain cells _can't_ regenerate when in actuality they can and _just don't_. There is a difference; it _is_ _(logically)_ possible to induce them into continuing the cell cycle again given the necessary stimulation, though (i.e.- Tsunade's Chakra stock in this case).


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Tsunade before being teleported didn't have Sozo Saisei active. Tsunade is making the handsign to use Sozo Saisei after she kicked Madara so yeah she took the damage quite a few cuts without using any regen jutsu.



I didn't notice the hand seal. Remembered she just appeared with SS activated.

Doesn't change the fact that swords etc have pierced her before. She's not a durability freak. And we have no one we could compare Tsunade's feat to.


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> That's a bit too much...
> 
> 
> Btw I see that some people keep saying certain cells _can't_ regenerate when in actuality they can and _just don't_. There is a difference; it _is_ _(logically)_ possible to induce them into continuing the cell cycle again given the necessary stimulation, though (i.e.- Tsunade's Chakra stock in this case).



Oh well that would still put her regeneration on a level above any human or Shinobi with regular regeneration, that's really the only point of said statement.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 23, 2014)

I think people are getting 'durability' mixed up with 'endurance'.

Durability, in my mind, reflects her body's ability to withstand attacks without much damage. The Raikage's have a classically high level of durability in that their ridiculous constitution allows them to get shot with powerful attacks, but with little to no wounds to show for it. Tsunade, in contrast, bleeds and bruises just like any normal person. Or, well, maybe a little less since she did sustain Mabui's teleportation jutsu.

I would say that her defining feature here would be endurance, rather than durability. It's undeniable that her taking a continuous flurry of attacks from Orochimaru's sword was very impressive, but it was a feat of her own willpower and resilience to pain more than her body's toughness. A kunai would cut her just as it would most other shinobi; if Itachi slices her throat, then she's gone.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

What AS said.


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## Itachі (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi uses Genjutsu on her, knowing that that's the only way he could defeat her. After that he slits her throat, full knowledge makes this lean quite a lot towards Itachi.



Rocky said:


> Itachi can't do anything. The moment he stabs her, any genjutsu will break and she'll just regenerate. He only stomps her with the Mangekyou.



With full knowledge, you really think Itachi's going to risk that?


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think people are getting 'durability' mixed up with 'endurance'.
> 
> Durability, in my mind, reflects her body's ability to withstand attacks without much damage. The Raikage's have a classically high level of durability in that their ridiculous constitution allows them to get shot with powerful attacks, but with little to no wounds to show for it. Tsunade, in contrast, bleeds and bruises just like any normal person. Or, well, maybe a little less since she did sustain Mabui's teleportation jutsu.
> 
> I would say that her defining feature here would be endurance, rather than durability. It's undeniable that her taking a continuous flurry of attacks from Orochimaru's sword was very impressive, but it was a feat of her own willpower and resilience to pain more than her body's toughness. A kunai would cut her just as it would most other shinobi; if Itachi slices her throat, then she's gone.



The only problem with what your saying is that Tsuande gets bloodied and bruised from attacks that aren't normal. You act as if a regular Shinobi just biscected Tsuande. No....

• She's been cut up( out of shape) by a Dimond cutting sword, wielded by a Shinobi capable of tossing 4k Naruto around like a ragdoll with his neck strength...

• She's been cut up by a massive sized Sussano that normally has the physical strength to juice human beings and punch through cave walls like butter.

• she's been injured by Yasaka Magmata which is the Sussano's most powerful projectile.

• She's been barely cut up by a technique that turns the regular Shinobi into pieces, which alone discredits your entire post. She also survived the Justu with injuries not much worse then the Raikage who would laugh at a kunai.

• She's been torn in half by magical Mokuton with ridiculous offsensive ability.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Doesn't change the fact that swords etc have pierced her before. She's not a durability freak.



Being pierced by Susano'o swords being wielded by Susano'o constructs doesn't mean Tsunade's not a durability freak.

Itachi's Kunai is not nearly as tough as those swords and Itachi himself is not nearly as strong as Susano'o to begin with. You're essentially trying to say "Tsunade's no more durable than a normal person because she gets hurt by attacks way above what could be considered normal", which is kind of silly.



> And we have no one we could compare Tsunade's feat to.



We don't really need anyone to compare it to because we've already been explicitly told what happens to normal people when they go through it: they get turned into ribbons and come out already dead on the other side.

That happened to everyone with the sole exception of the Third Raikage, and Mabui wasn't even sure that Ay would be okay going through it. Their names are not necessary to realize that his is an incredible amount of strain being exerted on the people in question (even in real life, unprotected leaps to lighspeed would kill people before they turn into messy splats due to the force, if we could actually reach that speed).

That's a far cry from exiting with minor wounds like Tsunade, which is a lot more comparable to how Ay came out with just scrapes than what Mabui's statement would be referring to.

Even without considering that feat we can tell that Tsunade's a tank because Orochimaru's diamond-stinging Kusanagi no Tsurugi swings did significantly less damage to her than Sasuke's _non-Raiton-flowed_ sword did to Danzō.

If you made a durability scale it would go:

Third Raikage ---> Ay ----> Tsunade ---------------------------> normal people like Danzō, Kakashi, etc. (May not be quite that big but you get the point.)


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 23, 2014)

*Likes boss:

*Tsunade obviously has more durability than the ordinary shinobi, but I think it's rather ridiculous to think that if Itachi came at her with a kunai and successfully landed a hit, the blade would just shatter on impact. 

The thing with your examples that none of those are things which particularly exemplify any crazy feat of diamond-durability from Tsunade. She's been cut up by a diamond cutting sword, yes. In what way does this represent her body's ability to resist damage? The only thing impressive about this is, where other shinobi would have likely died from the wounds, Tsunade didn't. That's endurance, not durability.

Same with getting cut up by Susanoo, battered by yasaka no magatama or being torn in half by Madara's mokuton. I don't see how they represent any particular unparagoned feat of durability on her part -- she still experienced physical damage from them. The difference is just that she didn't actually die from them because of her resilience and willpower.

The only example you've mentioned which really is a display of durability from Tsunade is her sustaining Mabui's teleportation jutsu, which I already acknowledged in my previous post.


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## Ghost (Oct 23, 2014)

And Yata was said to be able to block anything by the guy who has all the knowledge of Naruverse.

Also your scale would go:


Sandaime >>>>>>>>>> Ei >>>>> Tsunade >> Kakashi etc.


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## Bonly (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I didn't notice the hand seal. Remembered she just appeared with SS activated.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that swords etc have pierced her before. She's not a durability freak. And we have no one we could compare Tsunade's feat to.



Oh yeah I agree with you there, she's no uber durability freak or anything(she's very resilient on the otherhand) but I was just correcting you on that so that FlamingRain and GT will notice me


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## FlamingRain (Oct 23, 2014)

saikyou said:


> And Yata was said to be able to block anything by the guy who has all the knowledge of Naruverse.



The same one who didn't even recognize what Susano'o was, you mean.

That Zetsu statement is hyperbolic, Mabui's was merely an observation. The Third was the _only one_ out of everyone else who went through it to survive, meaning normal people can't take its transfer whatsoever. Tsunade didn't just take it, she came out of it with _minor_ wounds.



> Also your scale would go:
> 
> Sandaime >>>>>>>>>> Ei >>>>> Tsunade >> Kakashi etc.



_My_ scale? No, it wouldn't, because that puts Tsunade clos_er_ to normal people than it does to people like Ay, which is demonstrably false.

Normal people die before exiting the technique; Tsunade didn't just survive, she only received _minor_ wounds from it. What happened to Tsunade leans more towards scratches than it does being shredded to bits.



Itachі said:


> Itachi uses Genjutsu on her, knowing that that's the only way he could defeat her. After that he slits her throat.



Then Tsunade claps her hands and regenerates from it in like two seconds.


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## trance (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi can only stomp her with the Mangekyo Sharingan.


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## Itachі (Oct 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Then Tsunade claps her hands and regenerates from it in like two seconds.



Ah. Slitting it is just one of the options, he could stab her in the throat or sever her throat. He has an array of choices, with her out cold he could even cut off her hands, given that he has full knowledge.

The knowledge is too much imo, Tsunade's not fast enough to get at Itachi before he uses Genjutsu on her and Itachi has enough knowledge on her to be able to take her out.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

> The thing with your examples that none of those are things which particularly exemplify any crazy feat of diamond-durability from Tsunade. She's been cut up by a diamond cutting sword, yes. In what way does this represent her body's ability to resist damage? The only thing impressive about this is, where other shinobi would have likely died from the wounds, Tsunade didn't. That's endurance, not durability.



If a sword can cut adamantine, it should glide through a normal person, just the same as Sasuke's sword glided through Danzo, and infinitely better than a normal sword does a normal person.  But it didn't lop Tsunade into little pieces, because her body, and bones, were too tough to let it pass through.

The same with the Susano swords.  The hand of Susano is strong enough to crush people into little smears, and it's swords are made of condensed ultimate defence.  Lesser Susano's have the strength to resist Baku's suction.  There's no question of the superior swinging power of Susano.  

The blade itself is harder and stronger than the rest of it, because Tsunade has used a Susano blade to cut into Madara's ribcage Susano before.  Lesser Susano's have used their blades to cleave through reams of Kimimaro's Sage enhanced bone forests in the Kabuto fight, and we know that Kimi's basic bones were even with a chakra flowed Samurai sword.  Yet while those swords cut into her sides, they didn't cut through her, and became stuck.  That is durability, and it's some very fine durability indeed.  Her ability to then run around with the swords in her and continue fighting is endurance.


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## Itachі (Oct 23, 2014)

^ Have to side with you there, although the Kusanagi may have a substantial amount of hype, it has feats too.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> he went straight to the body takeover process


That is fanfic, you know that right ? 



> Interpreting that meeting as a display of superiority on Itachi's part is like Karin berating Sasuke for taking so much damage against Deidara despite 'being the man who killed Orochimaru'. There's a lot of context behind the scenes missing and it was clear that neither examples were real fights.


Wait what ? Itachi fodder stomped Orochimaru and Orochimaru ran away(or Itachi just let him go, considering he didn't see Orochimaru as a threat). And later on admitted that Itachi was stronger than him.
How are we supposed to interpret that  ? 



> Orochimaru was skilled enough to escape his opponent while being unable to execute any form of jutsu.


Even if this was the case, it wouldn't mean anything at all, considering that being able to run away from your opponent only means one thing. That you aren't strong enough to face them.

In before "Itachi ran from Gai and Jiraiya" 



Rocky said:


> Itachi can't do anything. The moment he stabs her, any genjutsu will break and she'll just regenerate. He only stomps her with the Mangekyou.



Itachi has full knowledge. He'll just decapitate her.


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## Veracity (Oct 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> *Likes boss:
> 
> *Tsunade obviously has more durability than the ordinary shinobi, but I think it's rather ridiculous to think that if Itachi came at her with a kunai and successfully landed a hit, the blade would just shatter on impact.
> 
> ...



Tsuande isn't just more durable then the average Shinobi.. She's far more durable. Being reduced to nothing in contrast to minor scratches is a wide gap.

I don't think I ever said that the kunai would shatter upon impact , just that Itachi isn't going through her entire neck with it. It might get stuck in the middle.

The sword ORO was wielding stung Enma. There is no reason other then durability for Tsuande not to be outright bisected by the second stroke of the sword. PoW and FlamingRain pretty much explained the Danzo example pretty well.

I honesty just listed every single instance of her being injured . The Sussano example was more or less centered towards the accusation that because Tsuande was bloodied and cut by Sussano swords , that other swords can do the same. Yet nobody takes into consideration the fact that Sussano is a physical powerhouse in its own right. 

The yasaka example however is a display of massive Durabilty. The average Shinobi or any Shinobi other then durabilty monsters would have been obliterated . Not only did Tsuande take minor damage from the attack, but she destroyed a boulder with her back and laughed the damage off with no regeneration( or none needed rather).

If you want to get more technical then I could mention the fact that her bones and skin withstand the force of her Sussano busting punches and kicks without shattering or rupturing .


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 23, 2014)

I'll concede to your [Likes boss] and Pirate's points on Tsunade's durability. Though I'd like to note that I don't think I've ever really tried downplaying it; I just simply don't think she could tank a kunai to the throat. In regards to the match overall, I'm undecided on who would actually win.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't get why the Itachi and Orochimaru moment is being used as a downplay for Itachi. Orochimaru admitted that a 13 year old Itachi was stronger than him and that was what made him leave the organization, he even commented on this when he was in his stronger form than the one who fought against a 13 year old Itachi. Imagine if Orochimaru knew of Itachi's MS techniques, he'd be mind blown.

For this match, 13 year old Itachi can take this with Genjutsu. I don't see why Tsunade should be an exception to not getting caught in Genjutsu, especially with no knowledge she won't know what hit her whereas Itachi has full knowledge so he knows about her Taijutsu feats. Itachi will have bunshin feints likely prepped for this.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Even if this was the case, it wouldn't mean anything at all, considering that being able to run away from your opponent only means one thing. That you aren't strong enough to face them.
> 
> In before "Itachi ran from Gai and Jiraiya"



You're contradicting yourself here. You can't say Orochimaru ran away from Itachi which means Itachi is stronger (which I agree) then say Itachi ran away from Gai and Jiraiya and believe that Itachi is still stronger than them 2 (which I don't agree).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> You're contradicting yourself here. You can't say Orochimaru ran away from Itachi which means Itachi is stronger (which I agree) then say Itachi ran away from Gai and Jiraiya and believe that Itachi is still stronger than them 2 (which I don't agree).



If you don't have the capability of contextually differentiating those two situations from each other, I can't help you friend


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi also warned kisame not to under estimate guy before his second encounter with him.. every chance itachi had he gave guy respect. the context has always been clear.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you don't have the capability of contextually differentiating those two situations from each other, I can't help you friend



I think you're trying to imply that Itachi can take on a 7th Gated Gai + SM Jiraiya, correct?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 23, 2014)

Vice said:


> Every bit of this. The effort is appreciated but its just going to go in one ear and out the other with Itachi's fans in favor of fan fiction I'm afraid.



Oh look Vice being a bigot again. There's something new.



Hussain said:


> Not at all, but she survived nevertheless.



If you acknowledge that Tsunade only survived because Madara let her then why bring it up like it's a reflection of _her_ merits...?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> I think you're trying to imply that Itachi can take on a 7th Gated Gai + SM Jiraiya, correct?



What do you mean by + ? I am talking about seperate encounters.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has full knowledge. He'll just decapitate her.



Considering that a point blank Magatama (the same that tore through Gaara & Onoki's defenses) failed to break her skin, and she waltzed through a jutsu that supposedly _rips people limb from limb _with only a few cuts to show for it, I'd _love_ to see the strength feats that suggest Itachi is decapitating her with a fucking 6-inch knife. _CHILD_ Itachi at that.

Tsunade's body durability may not be on the level of the Raikages, but it doesn't need to be. She doesn't need the durability to reflect lightning-covered swords with her neck when all Itachi has to attack her with is a Kunai. He may manage to slit her throat, but that will dispel any illusion. She regenerates and breaks him.

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only things that have managed to cut through Tsunade's skin were Susano'o's blade, The Sword of Kusanagi, and Mabui's shredder jutsu. Magatama failed, and the aforementioned weapons are a hell of alot more lethal than any standard Kunai. It might not even pierce...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2014)

With full knowledge and (arguably "vastly") superior speed and evasion, Itachi can avoid being hit for quite some time, even with optimal otherwise optimal circumstances for Tsunade.

And with zero knowledge, Tsunade most likely won't avoid genjutsu trickery, which would then allow Itachi (again with full knowledge) the opportunity to put her down cleanly.

I don't think it's beneath Itachi's ability to cleanly decapitate her as well as her hands, quite possibly putting her in genjutsu long before she even activates regeneration, leaving her limbless, and headless.

If there is a way, then Itachi's smart enough to do it with the advantage of knowledge, simply put. Remember, he's the guy who taught the reader the lesson that very jutsu has a weakness.

And that weakness is him.

*Edit:*

Ah, I see. The argument is that Tsunade is immune to everything in base Itachi's arsenal, and can't be permanently killed or decapitated. Then consider an alternative path that Itachi has shown.

That is, _the ability to make individuals attack themselves_, like we saw with Deidara. I don't see why Tsunade couldn't explode her own face with a punch if manipulated by genjutsu.

If Deidara was manipulated into wrapping himself in explosive without being able to perceive himself doing so, then surely Itachi can manipulate a knowledge-less Tsunade into similar actions.

Thereby channeling her own strength against her. This is, incidentally, how I believe Itachi would defeat the 3rd Raikage. His intelligence is notable, and genjutsu is his go-to method of attack.

It just happens that those he fights on-panel are extremely resistant to genjutsu, so he uses ninjutsu. (Sharingan users, Rinnegan users, Sages that hide their eyes, and perfect jinchuuriki.)​


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think it's beneath Itachi's ability to cleanly decapitate her as well as her hands, quite possibly putting her in genjutsu long before she even activates regeneration, leaving her limbless, and headless.​



Well I do, for reasons that I just explained to Grimm. His strength doesn't approach Susanoo's, his Kunai doesn't cut diamond, and I doubt that targeting the neck would work when she walked through a shredder that targeted her everything.



> That is, the ability to make individuals attack themselves, like we saw with Deidara. I don't see why Tsunade couldn't explode her own face with a punch if manipulated by genjutsu.



I was actually thinking about this as a possible way Itachi could achieve victory, but I'm not sure that forcing somebody to physically strike themselves is no different than changing the target of a projectile attack.

Though if he can control her like that, he'll win.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2014)

That's a convincing point. I supplied another alternative in an edit.

Also, hello, Rocky. I hope you're well.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I was actually thinking about this as a possible way Itachi could achieve victory, but I'm not sure that forcing somebody to physically strike themselves is no different than changing the target of a projectile attack.



I don't think it was a projectile attack being redirected with sight manipulation. Rather, Deidara formed his clay and wrapped himself in it while unable to perceive it with any of his five senses.​


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## Akitō (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi loses just like he'd lose to Jiraiya and Orochimaru if he doesn't have his Mangekyō. He simply doesn't have the firepower to deal with them. In this case, Tsunade has too much durability, and her strength makes it so that Itachi's movements have to be perfect. Basic katon aren't cutting it, and the classic genjutsu + kunai combo that people love throwing around will be laughed at considering Tsunade's incredible chakra control.


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## ueharakk (Oct 23, 2014)

does anyone else think that *13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 23, 2014)

^ Have you seen 6 year old Kakashi? Lol.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think it was a projectile attack being redirected with sight manipulation. Rather, Deidara formed his clay and wrapped himself in it while unable to perceive it with any of his five senses.​



I could see it happening. Illusion type genjutsu have always been kinda..ambiguous, mechanically speaking. I'm not sure exactly how he manipulates people, or to what extent he can control different ninja.

But like I said, I have no problem saying Itachi wins if he is capable of what you're saying. It isn't really any harder to believe than a tired Naruto clone beating the 3rd Raikage once given the proper knowledge.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Akitō said:


> and the classic genjutsu + kunai combo that people love throwing around will be laughed at considering Tsunade's incredible chakra control.



To be fair, Tsunade's chakra control is meaningless unless she can detect that she is in an illusion to begin with, and that isn't very easy to do without a supplementary tool like the Sharingan.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

3 year old Hayate is probably the most notable.


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## RBL (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi solosstomp.


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## LostSelf (Oct 23, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> does anyone else think that *13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*?



.



Strategoob said:


> That is, _the ability to make individuals attack themselves_, like we saw with Deidara. I don't see why Tsunade couldn't explode her own face with a punch if manipulated by genjutsu.
> 
> If Deidara was manipulated into wrapping himself in explosive without being able to perceive himself doing so, then surely Itachi can manipulate a knowledge-less Tsunade into similar actions.
> 
> ...



Now that's a good point i've never seen someone using before aside from the genjutsu blitz. I'd like to add that he forced Kabuto to undo Edo Tensei as well. So this is a strong possibility.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I'd like to add that he forced Kabuto to undo Edo Tensei as well.



With Tsukuyomi.


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## LostSelf (Oct 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> With Tsukuyomi.



Indeed. But isn't Tsukuyomi just more dangerous and harder to break because it can transform one second in real life to several hours in the genjutsu world, thus, being unable to be broken in time even if you have excellent chakra control?

I always saw Itachi's ability to trick and control people outside of the type of genjutsu he uses, meaning that he can do it with any genjutsu, but of course, Tsukuyomi is a more reliable one.

But that's just me.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

I think it's really difficult to imagine tricking someone into punching themselves hard enough to kill themselves.  Itachi can mind control people, like he did that woman he used to seduce Jiraiya, or, well, be a female around Jiraiya, and that might be the ticket, but pure mind control strikes me as more oppressive and noticeable to ninja than subtle illusions.  Tsunade also doesn't have knowledge on Itachi, but she does have extensive knowledge on Uchiha in general, and comes from the family of the clan that snacked on Uchihas between meals.  So while he might get her with the finger genjutsu, which has only shown one usage and application, at significantly less power than eye contact genjutsu, it's unlikely she's going to look into his eyes, or be off guard against genjutsu.  

I also somewhat doubt that Tsunade would be striking a 12 year old boy with the power needed to kill herself, if that did work though.  She would probably use enough to kill him 4 times over, but against a random 12 year old ninja, probably not enough to oneshot herself, and anything short of that ends with the illusion dispelled, and the damage regenerated, with safeguards against future genjutsu.  i.e. a pocket slug.  You wouldn't have that problem in the Sandaime scenario, if it could happen, because his hellbringer need zero power to stab through himself, and he'd probably die, and as far as we know he can't summon.  But if Itachi's general jutsu can mind control, and if it can't be resisted, and if he can make her full power punch her own head off, then yes, he could win.  I'm just unsure I'd grant that to 12 year old Itachi, even if it's Itachi and he's Jr. Genjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Indeed. But isn't Tsukuyomi just more dangerous and harder to break because it can transform one second in real life to several hours in the genjutsu world, thus, being unable to be broken in time even if you have excellent chakra control?
> 
> I always saw Itachi's ability to trick and control people outside of the type of genjutsu he uses, meaning that he can do it with any genjutsu, but of course, Tsukuyomi is a more reliable one.
> 
> But that's just me.



Well, I think different genjutsu do different things and work in different ways, making them different techniques.  Similar to how you need different suiton jutsu to cast different suiton shapes, even though it's all shaping water.  That's why I'm hesitant to say that finger genjutsu can do anything sharingan genjutsu can do anything Tsukiyomi can do anything Kurenai's genjutsu can do anything Kotetsu's genjutsu can do anything Oboro bros genjutsu can do if they feel like it, but just at different strengths.


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## LostSelf (Oct 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well, I think different genjutsu do different things and work in different ways, making them different techniques.  Similar to how you need different suiton jutsu to cast different suiton shapes, even though it's all shaping water.  That's why I'm hesitant to say that finger genjutsu can do anything sharingan genjutsu can do anything Tsukiyomi can do anything Kurenai's genjutsu can do anything Kotetsu's genjutsu can do anything Oboro bros genjutsu can do if they feel like it, but just at different strengths.



I also don't think finger genjutsu can control her like that (I was talking about his sharingan). And it is a good point, forcing her to hit herself is more like a Koto thing than base Sharingan genjutsu.

Tricking her into hitting herself is the most reliable argument about him winning here. And even though it is a good point, i find hard to believe him making Tsunade hit herself even if he catches her.

Deidara was a different thing as he didn't have to throw a punch in a naturally opposite direction. Unless he makes her think she is throwing it in the right....

I am actually not sure. But yeah, i agree that different genjutsus can do different things. But it looks like Sharingan's offers more posibilities. Because Itachi used it to paralyze, as well to trick. And used Tsukuyomi to torture and to control someone by force.


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## Akitō (Oct 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> To be fair, Tsunade's chakra control is meaningless unless she can detect that she is in an illusion to begin with, and that isn't very easy to do without a supplementary tool like the Sharingan.



For someone as experienced as Tsunade is, I don't think it'd be too hard for her to recognize that she's in a genjutsu. She might not break it fast enough for her to not get hit, but I'd be extremely surprised if Itachi could trap her indefinitely without her realizing it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

You know the more I try to imagine it, the more I think punching yourself to death is just stupid.  Deidara had a good ability to be redirected.  Stop hitting yourself is just incomprehensible, and I don't think even current Kishi would draw that.  Maybe if this were Ino.


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## Rocky (Oct 23, 2014)

Akitō said:


> For someone as experienced as Tsunade is, I don't think it'd be too hard for her to recognize that she's in a genjutsu. She might not break it fast enough for her to not get hit, but I'd be extremely surprised if Itachi could trap her indefinitely without her realizing it.



Experience is irrelevant if all of her senses are affected by the illusion. Reality is perfectly replicated.

Just read Deidara vs. Itachi. There are no visual, audible, tactile, or even olfactory indicators of a genjutsu being in effect. How would she even go about figuring out that what she is sensing isn't real?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 23, 2014)

Ninjas just get a "sense" that something is wrong.  Even Naruto figured it out eventually.  Not that he could do anything about it.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 24, 2014)

Honestly yes Madara could have destroyed the Gokage, but they forced him to use PS.
He had no other way out.

As for the battle.
Tsunade beats this scrub. These people need to stop.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> A kunai would cut her just as it would most other shinobi; if Itachi slices her throat, then she's gone.




*I agree with everything else you had said.....


But if this were the case couldn't I simply say within reason that Rock Lee > Tsunade...Because all he has to due is get to her throat ...which with him, and considering her lack luster ability of speed, is possible........*


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ninjas just get a "sense" that something is wrong.  Even Naruto figured it out eventually.  Not that he could do anything about it.



The fact that Deidara was about to blow himself up tells me that ninja _do not _just get a "sense."

Naruto figured out Ephemeral because Itachi turned into crows upon being struck with a Kunai and floated in the sky. I'd say that is a visual indicator of genjutsu.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Its amazing how someone like myself can set up an agrument of how Tsunade logically wins, and its ignored through pure ignorance.....

Tsuande smashes the ground at the beginning of the fight, forcing Itachi to evade backwards through the air. At that moment Tsuande summons Katsuya and begins spraying acid every where. Itachi's ONLY HOPE, is to catch Tsunade in a genjutsu & proceed to cut her head off. Which some of you think is more reasonable than Tsunade actually punching Itachi or catching him in acid from Katusya...

Orochimaru, if in different circumstances and knowledge, would have faired much differently against Itachi. Remember he did force susano on Itachi and forced Itachi to use his best weapons. I for one place Tsunade above Orochimaru


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 24, 2014)

They get a sense if they're good enough.  Deidara was not.  ...apparently.  I don't know.  Sometimes ninja just go, "Ah, this is genjutsu!"  Or, "Wait, genjutsu!" Other times they almost blow themselves up.

The crow thing is weird because Itachi actually has crow clones.  I guess it was the floating.


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2014)

I think ninja only realize it's genjutsu if there's some sort of indicator (given by the caster) or they have a Sharingan. 

Can you link me to some examples of what you're talking about? I don't really remember most of the genjutsu stuff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Considering that a point blank Magatama (the same that tore through Gaara & Onoki's defenses) failed to break her skin, and she waltzed through a jutsu that supposedly _rips people limb from limb _with only a few cuts to show for it, I'd _love_ to see the strength feats that suggest Itachi is decapitating her with a fucking 6-inch knife. _CHILD_ Itachi at that.
> 
> Tsunade's body durability may not be on the level of the Raikages, but it doesn't need to be. She doesn't need the durability to reflect lightning-covered swords with her neck when all Itachi has to attack her with is a Kunai. He may manage to slit her throat, but that will dispel any illusion. She regenerates and breaks him.
> 
> Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only things that have managed to cut through Tsunade's skin were Susano'o's blade, The Sword of Kusanagi, and Mabui's shredder jutsu. Magatama failed, and the aforementioned weapons are a hell of alot more lethal than any standard Kunai. It might not even pierce...



Magatama isn't like a blade, its edges are blunt. And those ribcage Magatama are also featless. And someones neck is more vulnerable than their chest or abdomen. 

And yes, I believe a kunai will pierce her, there is no evidence why it won't. Flesh tends to tolarete blunt attacks better than piercing/slashing ones.

We know for a fact that she is alot less durable than Ribcage Susano'o, based on this : 

*13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*

*13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*

The blade that whent through her like butter only made a small crack on Susano'o.



Rocky said:


> With Tsukuyomi.



evidence ?


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## Arles Celes (Oct 24, 2014)

Depends how resistant is Tsunade to sharingan genjutsu.

Also portrayal wise Itachi shouldn't be above a healthy full powered Sannin at just 13 years old.

Unless he peaked at that age and his sickness + blindness resulted in him being weaker at 19-22 than he was at 13.


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Magatama isn't like a blade, its edges are blunt. And those ribcage Magatama are also featless. And someones neck is more vulnerable than their chest or abdomen.
> 
> And yes, I believe a kunai will pierce her, there is no evidence why it won't. Flesh tends to tolarete blunt attacks better than piercing/slashing ones.
> 
> ...



Grimm are you serious? A technique that does what a Kunai does but times a billion was targeted across Tsuandes complete body and she came out like this being able to from seals and throw kicks: *13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*

So yes you have no point at all. Itachi is not superseding the effects of a technique that shreds the user,


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## Akitō (Oct 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Experience is irrelevant if all of her senses are affected by the illusion. Reality is perfectly replicated.
> 
> Just read Deidara vs. Itachi. There are no visual, audible, tactile, or even olfactory indicators of a genjutsu being in effect. How would she even go about figuring out that what she is sensing isn't real?



Why are you trying to compare a young Deidara to Tsunade? Citing that one instance of genjutsu doesn't prove anything because that scene was clearly written from Deidara's perspective, and that will obviously differ from what Tsunade feels considering the massive difference in experience at that point. We have instances of people who are somewhat trained in blocking genjutsu recognizing Itachi's genjutsu without any genjutsu-specific indicators, so I don't see any reason to assume that Tsunade wouldn't be able to considering she seems to have an affinity for it (if she's anything like Sakura, at least).


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## Kai (Oct 24, 2014)

Yeah, Itachi owned Orochimaru in the flashback. I don't understand why people meticulously defend Oro's intent and/or actions when that flashback served one purpose, and one purpose only.

That being said, do any of you guys think Tsunade wouldn't absolutely tear Orochimaru from that flashback apart?


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Why are you trying to compare a young Deidara to Tsunade? Citing that one instance of genjutsu doesn't prove anything because that scene was clearly written from Deidara's perspective, and that will obviously differ from what Tsunade feels considering the massive difference in experience at that point.



There weren't any indications of a genjutsu being in effect that Deidara could have picked up on but missed. There were no differences between what he was seeing and reality except for the target of his attack.



> We have instances of people who are somewhat trained in blocking genjutsu recognizing Itachi's genjutsu without any genjutsu-specific indicators, so I don't see any reason to assume that Tsunade wouldn't be able to considering she seems to have an affinity for it (if she's anything like Sakura, at least).



Tsunade isn't the genjutsu type like Sakura, so there's that.

I would like you to link me to the examples of people seeing through Itachi's genjutsu without special tools to do so though. Unless Itachi does something like randomly turn into crows, which would be an indication that something is off, I don't remember any examples of it happening.


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Magatama isn't like a blade, its edges are blunt. And those ribcage Magatama are also featless. And someones neck is more vulnerable than their chest or abdomen.



There is no difference between Magatama between the stages of Susano'o imo, and Magatama wasn't able to punch a hole in Tsunade despite punching a hole in Onoki's rock Golem and Gaara's sand defense. 



> And yes, I believe a kunai will pierce her, there is no evidence why it won't. Flesh tends to tolarete blunt attacks better than piercing/slashing ones.



There's no evidence that it _would_ in the first place. Tsunade tolerated a Jutsu that was supposed to shred her very well, so I don't know why cutting attacks are her kyrptonite. 



> We know for a fact that she is alot less durable than Ribcage Susano'o, based
> The blade that whent through her like butter only made a small crack on Susano'o.



She doesn't need to be as durable as Susano'o to shrug off a Kunai. Part 1 Gaara has defenses that can break Kunai (unless Kimimaro's giant super-bone-lance was inferior to a Kunai).



> evidence ?



You're an Itachi fan and are seriously asking me for evidence that Itachi used Tsukuyomi to control Kabuto? That was like his entire plan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There is no difference between Magatama between the stages of Susano'o imo, and Magatama wasn't able to punch a hole in Tsunade despite punching a hole in Onoki's rock Golem and Gaara's sand defense.



If size is an indicator, then there is, actually. And given Magatama is a projectile, it should be more effective from a certain distance than point blank range. Acceleration = more power. 

Also Gaara's sand defense and Golem aren't made of flesh. They are solid objects, so more vulnerable against blunt type of attacks. 

Which one would do more damage to a wall ? A knife or a hammer ? You know the answer.



> There's no evidence that it _would_ in the first place. Tsunade tolerated a Jutsu that was supposed to shred her very well, so I don't know why cutting attacks are her kyrptonite.


I don't need to justify common sense. Unless she has tanking feats that suggest her skin is as hard as ribcage Susano'O(which Danzo's kunai broke on) I am not buying that her skin is tough enough to stop metal. Sorry.



> She doesn't need to be as durable as Susano'o to shrug off a Kunai. Part 1 Gaara has defenses that can break Kunai (unless Kimimaro's giant super-bone-lance was inferior to a Kunai).


She doesn't need to, but thats a general estimate of how durable she should have been. 
We don't know how durable that weirdass defensive golem Gaara pulled out either.



> You're an Itachi fan and are seriously asking me for evidence that Itachi used Tsukuyomi to control Kabuto? That was like his entire plan.


I am an Itachi fan, thats why I know everything better than you regarding Itachi. Because I pay extra attention.

Itachi's plan was to use Tsukiyomi to mindfuck Kabuto into learning the way to undo ET. But later on the plan changed into using Izanami to capture his mind because he was immune to visual genjutsu The whole point of using Tsukiyomi was to extract information and fuck up his conscious mind so he could be controlled easily by genjutsu.
Izanami took care of that, so there was no need to use Tsukiyomi on a vegetable. Itachi used a basic genjutsu to extract information and control him because Kabuto was in no position to resist.



Likes boss said:


> Grimm are you serious? A technique that does what a Kunai does but times a billion was targeted across Tsuandes complete body and she came out like this being able to from seals and throw kicks: *13 year old Itachi was on some serious growth hormones*
> 
> So yes you have no point at all. Itachi is not superseding the effects of a technique that shreds the user,



That technique didn't decapitate her.



Kai said:


> Yeah, Itachi owned Orochimaru in the flashback. I don't understand why people meticulously defend Oro's intent and/or actions when that flashback served one purpose, and one purpose only.
> 
> That being said, do any of you guys think Tsunade wouldn't absolutely tear Orochimaru from that flashback apart?



If she has ways to paralyze orochimaru and kill him before he can do anything, sure. 

But as far as we know, she doesn't so no, she wouldn't.


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## Akitō (Oct 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There weren't any indications of a genjutsu being in effect that Deidara could have picked up on but missed. There were no differences between what he was seeing and reality except for the target of his attack.



The scene was written from the perspective of Deidara, who wasn't able to see through the genjutsu. There aren't going to be any signs of genjutsu written because Kishimoto wanted to show how Deidara interpreted the situation. 

Also, I'm not sure if the signs would be physically apparent anyway to us readers. They could very well only be felt. 



> I would like you to link me to the examples of people seeing through Itachi's genjutsu without special tools to do so though. Unless Itachi does something like randomly turn into crows, which would be an indication that something is off, I don't remember any examples of it happening.



Not sure what you mean by "randomly turn into crows", but Itachi getting hit and then turning into crows shouldn't be an indication of genjutsu. And that happened when he fought Bee, who recognized that it was genjutsu. If I'm misunderstanding something, then I guess you'd be right on this one.


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## Remsengan (Oct 24, 2014)

*Looks at poll*

I see what you're trying to do here.

Tsunade basically can tank any basic form of attack, and decapitations simply aren't a plausible win-con.  There's literally no evidence that any ninja has even been made headless, because that's just how the Naruto world works.

Furthermore, Orchimaru was completely haphazard in his approach.  He was going for a blindside attack while Itachi had his back turned, and Itachi obviously saw it coming and was able to take advantage of Oro's overconfidence.  Here, Tsuandae and Itachi are squaring off face to face, and there's a good chance Tsunade will have her auto-regen turned on before she attempts CQC.


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## Vice (Oct 24, 2014)

Kai said:


> Yeah, Itachi owned Orochimaru in the flashback. I don't understand why people meticulously defend Oro's intent and/or actions when that flashback served one purpose, and one purpose only.
> 
> That being said, do any of you guys think Tsunade wouldn't absolutely tear Orochimaru from that flashback apart?



Yes, to convey the parallel between Orochimaru trying to take Sasuke's body and when he tried to take Itachi's. The manga couldn't have made that clear enough.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Yeah, I don't think Orochimaru trying to steal Itachi's body and failing to do so, translates the same as replacing him with a different Sannin whose has better feats in an actual fight rather.


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## LostSelf (Oct 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You know the more I try to imagine it, the more I think punching yourself to death is just stupid.  Deidara had a good ability to be redirected.  Stop hitting yourself is just incomprehensible, and I don't think even current Kishi would draw that.  Maybe if this were Ino.



I, too, find it hard to believe. Only because he needs to make Tsunade throw the punch in a direction where even by instinct you know you won't throw it. Physical attacks are never thrown to the body.

However, Itachi made Deidara put the centipede on himself while he was thinking he used it on Itachi, therefore Itachi not only made him believe he capture him, but made Deidara used the jutsu in a different direction. I am not totally convinced that he will, here. But it seems Kishimoto's dildo has an arguable shot if he managed to do something like that.

I also don't think he can do it several times. Just once or two if he is lucky. And Tsunade might fall for it without full knowledge, not because of her lack of Uchiha Intel (Wich she should have, everybody has), but because she might be a bit arrogant with him just being a child (A child of the size of Orochimaru) just like she was with Naruto. I don't remember if she knew by that time that Naruto was an Uzumaki and son of Minato, but if she did, she might make a mistake here taking Itachi lightly at first.


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## GearsUp (Oct 24, 2014)

what the fuck? tsunade murks, why we need 6 pages but my fabulous 1010 threads always get lockd before ten posts.


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That technique didn't decapitate her.



The technique targeted her head and neck so it tried to do more then decapitate her and failed . So again youre wrong .


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## FlamingRain (Oct 24, 2014)

Eh, making Deidara blow himself up only requires that his sense of spacing is thrown off, because his clay explosives are remotely guided. It takes more than that in order to get to Tsunade actually punching herself in the face, because bending your arm back into hitting yourself in the head like that physically feels different than a punch thrown at someone else. I don't think you lose even those actual tactile senses whilst in Genjutsu, else people wouldn't be able to clasp their hands to kai out of it regardless of whether or not they knew they were trapped (and Orochimaru was doing just that before he got interrupted). You don't need a visual lock on your arm to notice that it's moving oddly, so the moment Tsunade's arm bends back like that she ought to be tipped off and stop, if it happens.

I think.

I mean I know he moved Kabuto's arms to undo Edo Tensei with Tsukuyomi, but Kabuto couldn't stop himself even if he noticed due to Izanami, right? Orochimaru was still able to move even after being ensnared within a more typical Sharingan Genjutsu, albeit he was stalled.



Kai said:


> Do any of you guys think Tsunade wouldn't absolutely tear Orochimaru from that flashback apart?



How much weaker do you think flashback Orochimaru was?


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## Dr. White (Oct 24, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Eh, making Deidara blow himself up only requires that his sense of spacing is thrown off, because his clay explosives are remotely guided.


Space, vision, and touch. Probably hearing as well since.



> It takes more than that in order to get to Tsunade actually punching herself in the face, because bending your arm back into hitting yourself in the head like that physically feels different than a punch thrown at someone else.


I agree.



> I don't think you lose even those actual tactile senses whilst in Genjutsu, else people wouldn't be able to clasp their hands to kai out of it regardless of whether or not they knew they were trapped (and Orochimaru was doing just that before he got interrupted).


There are 3 types of genjutsu:
-Paralysis
-Deception
-Hypnosis
Oro went to Kai'd because he was paralyzed not being deceived about his surroundings (like Diedara, Danzo, Bee vs Itachi)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The technique targeted her head and neck so it tried to do more then decapitate her and failed . So again youre wrong .



Lol no...
10char


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol no...
> 10char



Please explain to my how I'm wrong ? The difference between trying to decapitate someone and a Jutsu that shreds the user is that the latter destroys from the inside out and from every part of the body all at once . And you're telling me a simple kunai strike is suppose to behead her when the Justu hardly ruptured her skin ? No.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Please explain to my how I'm wrong ? The difference between trying to decapitate someone and a Jutsu that shreds the user is that the latter destroys from the inside out and from every part of the body all at once . And you're telling me a simple kunai strike is suppose to behead her when the Justu hardly ruptured her skin ? No.




I agree. There is absolutely not reason to believe a kunai will be the end of Tsuande especially when its not covered in Ration or something of the sort. Just a normal TenTen kunai...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Please explain to my how I'm wrong ? The difference between trying to decapitate someone and a Jutsu that shreds the user is that the latter destroys from the inside out and from every part of the body all at once . And you're telling me a simple kunai strike is suppose to behead her when the Justu hardly ruptured her skin ? No.



There is absolutely no way to quantify the damage lightspeed travel inflicts and we don't know what kind of damage it inflicts and how it is inflicted. 

But again, there is no evidence that to suggest that Tsunade's skin is harder than steel. This is the first time I am hearing it.


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is absolutely no way to quantify the damage lightspeed travel inflicts and we don't know what kind of damage it inflicts and how it is inflicted.
> 
> But again, there is no evidence that to suggest that Tsunade's skin is harder than steel. This is the first time I am hearing it.



We have character statements that say the lightspeed teleportation shreds the average Shinobi's body on a massive level.  The very definition of lightspeed travel would be vastly superior to a kunai stroke if you want to get technical. All we need to know is that Itachis kunai strike is inferior to a Justu that was said to negatively change an individual's composition and your argument is shut down. 

Yasaka Magamata not even inflicting damage upon her skin itself would put her skin above iron level. They are superhuman ninja in their own right. The average Shinobi is faster, more durable, stronger, more skilled, has more endurance; essentially superior to the average human in everyway.

Then there's the matter of fact that Tsunade's skin wouldn't even have to be as hard as steel considering even if Itachi dug into her neck with the kunai , the kunai would probably just get stuck in the middle . That was actually my original point. Let's say Itachi can dig into her skin with a kunai... He still isn't cleanly slicing through her neck and most likely just ends with the kunai around her windpipe.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We have character statements that say the lightspeed teleportation shreds the average Shinobi's body on a massive level.  The very definition of lightspeed travel would be vastly superior to a kunai stroke if you want to get technical. All we need to know is that Itachis kunai strike is inferior to a Justu that was said to negatively change an individual's composition and your argument is shut down.
> 
> Yasaka Magamata not even inflicting damage upon her skin itself would put her skin above iron level. They are superhuman ninja in their own right. The average Shinobi is faster, more durable, stronger, more skilled, has more endurance; essentially superior to the average human in everyway.
> 
> Then there's the matter of fact that Tsunade's skin wouldn't even have to be as hard as steel considering even if Itachi dug into her neck with the kunai , the kunai would probably just get stuck in the middle . That was actually my original point. Let's say Itachi can dig into her skin with a kunai... He still isn't cleanly slicing through her neck and most likely just ends with the kunai around her windpipe.



But she survived lightspeed travel with genesis rebirth.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 24, 2014)

The whole Itachi/Orochimaru encounter leaves to many gaps in theories to predict an outcome such as this. Theres several things missing such as...What took place before hand, orochimarus condition(host body), did he try his soul transfer technique, or did Itachi straight own his ass. Just because Orochimaru has a high score in the Genjutsu catergory does not make him any better at dealing with genjutsu then someone who has a slightly lower score.

All we know is that Itachi > Orochimaru based on his own words


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But she survived lightspeed travel with genesis rebirth.



SS was activated after: Link removed


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> SS was activated after: Link removed


You mean like a second after.
And did you see her insides ?


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## Veracity (Oct 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean like a second after.
> And did you see her insides ?



Doesn't matter how much longer it was after , she clearly was battle capable as she was able to throw a kick in unison with Ay.

Why would I need to see her insides. Her outsides are more durable then her inside muscles considering she had nothing more then scratches on the surface of her skin.  There is no argument here anymore lmao.


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## LostSelf (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Doesn't matter how much longer it was after , she clearly was battle capable as she was able to throw a kick in unison with Ay.
> 
> Why would I need to see her insides. Her outsides are more durable then her inside muscles considering she had nothing more then scratches on the surface of her skin.  There is no argument here anymore lmao.



There are. We know her insides were damaged because she could not use her super strenght on Madara, as you can see him shrugging off Tsunade's kick.

Therefore the Teleportation should've done something similar than Kabuto cutting her muscles with Chakra Scalpel, or more damage than that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Doesn't matter how much longer it was after , she clearly was battle capable as she was able to throw a kick in unison with Ay.


She wouldn't waste a genesis rebirth if it wasn't a serious injury. She was able to throw a kick as soon as she came out and immediately used genesis rebirth.

She did the same against Orochimaru, after being impaled multiple times.
Call it willpower, plot, or whatevet you want. 



> Why would I need to see her insides. Her outsides are more durable then her inside muscles considering she had nothing more then scratches on the surface of her skin.  There is no argument here anymore lmao.


She was bleeding outside and inside(you can see the blood on the corner of her mouth). And like I said, we don't know much about lightspeed travel, and its effects. 

I also agree that there is no argument here. Don't agree with anymore part. Because there was no argument to begin with.


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## JuicyG (Oct 24, 2014)

Tsunade wins due to Itachi's lack of options in killing Tsunade...Its just more likely that Tsunade punches Itachi or has Katsuya spit acid on him. My opinion on the matter.


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## SSMG (Oct 24, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> There are. We know her insides were damaged because she could not use her super strenght on Madara, as you can see him shrugging off Tsunade's kick.
> 
> Therefore the Teleportation should've done something similar than Kabuto cutting her muscles with Chakra Scalpel, or more damage than that.



No if anything Madara shrugging off her kick is more about his defense/tanking abilities... nothing ever indicated she cant use her super strength at that point.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 24, 2014)

The indicator that she couldn't use her typical strength in that particular instance _is_ the very fact that Madara shrugged off her kick. Why? Because that's *way* out of sync with the fact that she went and erased his torso the next time she hit him, nevermind that he only notices her titanic strength later on after she strikes his Susano'o.


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> She wouldn't waste a genesis rebirth if it wasn't a serious injury. She was able to throw a kick as soon as she came out and immediately used genesis rebirth.
> 
> She did the same against Orochimaru, after being impaled multiple times.
> Call it willpower, plot, or whatevet you want.
> ...



Lol flaming rain explains this in a couple posts below. It's the exact same instance as against Kabuto. Her leg and arm muscles were torn to the point where he kick went from not injuring Madara to erasing his torso. SS was needed clearly.

What does her bleeding from the inside and out indicate? Coming out with still that amount of damage would indicate that a kunai strike from Itachi wouldn't do diddly squat. Then let me add on that the attack doesn't shred from the outside to inside or vice versa. It attacks the entire body at once. Meaning the attack" that turns an opponent to shreds" only scratches Tsuandes skin.

We don't need anything more then the canon character statement that it turns the average Shinobi into ribbons and that she found it hard that even the super durable Raikage would survive. So Average Shinobi<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Tsunade<<<<Ay<<3rd Raikage. And that alone is more then enough to validate a kunai not killing tsunade.

Why the hell are you acting like you even presented a sound argument once ? No you have not. Everything you have said has been countered . Your only argument now is that because the Justu doesn't have an actual feats of shredding a human that it isn't applicable . Which is clearly wrong .


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> There are. We know her insides were damaged because she could not use her super strenght on Madara, as you can see him shrugging off Tsunade's kick.
> 
> Therefore the Teleportation should've done something similar than Kabuto cutting her muscles with Chakra Scalpel, or more damage than that.



You may have misinterpreted me ? Cause your post really has nothing to do with anything I said . It's something I agree with .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 25, 2014)

Anyone ever think Tsunade's insides took more damage than her outsides because you can't train your organs?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Lol flaming rain explains this in a couple posts below. It's the exact same instance as against Kabuto. Her leg and arm muscles were torn to the point where he kick went from not injuring Madara to erasing his torso. SS was needed clearly.
> 
> What does her bleeding from the inside and out indicate? Coming out with still that amount of damage would indicate that a kunai strike from Itachi wouldn't do diddly squat. Then let me add on that the attack doesn't shred from the outside to inside or vice versa. It attacks the entire body at once. Meaning the attack" that turns an opponent to shreds" only scratches Tsuandes skin.
> 
> ...



I am sorry but obviously no one here is going to accept that as a sound argument, considering there is absolutely no way to quantify the amount of damage it inflicts.
All we know is that, it isn't potent enough to scratch Raikage but potent enough t o fatally wound Tsunade. 
This in no way or form gives us a clue about how she'd respond to a kunai to the neck.

All you've done so far is to describe what the jutsu does. "it shreds people."

Let me explain to you what a kunai does. "It cuts down people." I guess that should suffice.

Show me Tsunade's skin/flesh stopping a sharp metal weapon or something equal to that and I'll concede.


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am sorry but obviously no one here is going to accept that as a sound argument, considering there is absolutely no way to quantify the amount of damage it inflicts.
> All we know is that, it isn't potent enough to scratch Raikage but potent enough t o fatally wound Tsunade.
> This in no way or form gives us a clue about how she'd respond to a kunai to the neck.
> 
> ...



You are the only person here who doesn't think it's a sound argument are you serious ? 

Nooo? We also know it's potent enough to shred humans to almost nothing. So yeah I pretty sure we have another variable. 

THAT TELLS US EXACTLY HOW IT WOULD EQUAL UP TO A KUNAI STRIKE. The shredding technique does what a Kunai does just on a higher level considering it targets every single part of her face, neck, head, chest, wherever the fuck you want to label . The kunai just targets a single area. So no it's not going to do more damage. It's only going to scratch Tsuande like the Justu did.

All I've done is all I can do ? We don't have any other feats then the Tsuande and Raikage. But we don't need other feats.... We have a direct character statement that shouldn't be disregarded. And you seem to be doing that.

Let me add in the fact that the kunai is being swung by a 13 year old Itachi... Now let's see. Tsuande doesn't have a single feat against specifically weak individuals swinging 4 inch metal kunai but she does have a feat of my being bisected by a sword capable of stinging Emma... Especially considering the damage dealt to Danzo by a know chakra flowed sword from Sasuke.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 25, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Anyone ever think Tsunade's insides took more damage than her outsides because you can't train your organs?



^ This.

Also, Tsunade doesn't use regeneration haphazardly and on a whim - it shortens her life span. Any time she's used regeneration it's because she's taken grievous internal damage. If the damage she sustained was limited to a few cuts on her outer body - which it appeared to be on panel, then she wouldn't have been bleeding from the mouth, and she would have used a simple shosen technique to heal herself. Clearly her internals had sustained considerable damage.

Of course, that still doesn't detract from her durability feat. Mabui noted that any normal person would be torn apart from the friction of her lightning-speed travel. Tsunade's body is still perfectly in tact however, which is something to be marvelled at. This is after Katsuyu noted that her own body would be torn to pieces if she were to undergo the teleportation.​​


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## Itachі (Oct 25, 2014)

We don't really know what Itachi can do with a kunai so I'm pretty much undecided now, after reading through this thread. I mean, he was able to chop of Orochimaru's hand with one but Orochimaru doesn't really compare with Tsunade. Still think that it's kind of ridiculous that one wouldn't be able to decapitate her when it's her neck that's being cut but I'll just stick around in this thread until (if) I can make a decision.



Likes boss said:


> Lol yeah Minato was also about to kill Ay with a kunai . So don't compare the 2..



Don't know if you're talking about comparing Minato and Itachi or Ei and Tsunade.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 25, 2014)

A Yasaka Magatama - a bladed object, being rammed into Tsunade's chest with enough force to send her spiralling backwards and slamming into a boulder, that then exploded upon impact, barely made a scratch on her body. I'm going to guess that a 13 year old Itachi doesn't have nearly the same cutting power as a Yasaka Magatama, especially not when he's only using a kunai.​​


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## Hachibi (Oct 25, 2014)

Could go either way, tho Itachi has the advantage.

Also, talking about cutting Tsunade's head off, couldn't he do what he did with Deidara and make her decapitate herself with a Chakra Scapel (which I assume she has)?


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## Itachі (Oct 25, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A Yasaka Magatama - a bladed object, being rammed into Tsunade's chest with enough force to send her spiralling backwards and slamming into a boulder, that then exploded upon impact, barely made a scratch on her body. I'm going to guess that a 13 year old Itachi doesn't have nearly the same cutting power as a Yasaka Magatama, especially not when he's only using a kunai.​​



That's the chest though, not her neck. Obviously what you posted is a solid durability feat but wouldn't her neck be significantly weaker?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 25, 2014)

Not really. It would be different if the Magatama pierced through her skin and stuck into her chest or something, because obviously there's then a risk of the same or worse happening to her neck. However, the fact is that the Magatama barely even breached the skin on her chest, and the neck isn't so much weaker than the chest that it would suffer damage that is drastically worse. 

At best he wedges a bit of blade into her neck, but not nearly enough to kill or decapitate her.​​


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## Itachі (Oct 25, 2014)

We know about Tsunade's durability but we don't know about Itachi's strength. He was able to stop one of Sasuke's Fuma Shuriken with a kunai but I doubt that that could translate very easily to this situation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You are the only person here who doesn't think it's a sound argument are you serious ?
> 
> Nooo? We also know it's potent enough to shred humans to almost nothing. So yeah I pretty sure we have another variable.
> 
> ...



Mabui said "your flesh won't be able to handle it, you'll be ripped to shreds."
Mabui could have said the same thing if someone wanted to tried to tank a kunai to their neck "your flesh won't be able to handle it,  you'll be decapitated."

"You'll be shredded" is pretty vague definition. There are millions of techniques in Naruto world that can do the exact same thing.

The point of that part for me is, that the technique harms you if you aren't durable enough. 3rd Raikage was able to use it without being damaged because he was too damn durable. 
A did the same thing because of the very same reason that he is too durable. But Tsunade came out pretty damaged and had to use Genesis rebirth to survive.

So no,  being damaged by Mabui's technique =/= proof that she can tank kunai to the neck. Actually, there is no correlation here, and I certainly don't see the logic behind it. If there is logic,  that is.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> A Yasaka Magatama - a bladed object, being rammed into Tsunade's chest with enough force to send her spiralling backwards and slamming into a boulder, that then exploded upon impact, barely made a scratch on her body. I'm going to guess that a 13 year old Itachi doesn't have nearly the same cutting power as a Yasaka Magatama, especially not when he's only using a kunai.​​



Magatama is actually blunt. And there is no evidence that Madara's Magatama is actually "Yasaka's."
For all we know, Itachi has Totsuka, Yata and Yasaka's Magatama, because those 3 pieces are a part of  the imperial regalia.


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## LostSelf (Oct 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You may have misinterpreted me ? Cause your post really has nothing to do with anything I said . It's something I agree with .



Then maybe i did. I thought you meant that her skin had little damage, therefore she should've been fine inside.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Anyone ever think Tsunade's insides took more damage than her outsides because you can't train your organs?



Indeed. But her muscles can be trained to make them hard, too. I saw that in a Gym propaganda .



Hachibi said:


> Could go either way, tho Itachi has the advantage.
> 
> Also, talking about cutting Tsunade's head off, couldn't he do what he did with Deidara and make her decapitate herself with a Chakra Scapel (which I assume she has)?



Why would she use Chakra Scapel when she has a much more dangerous weapon in her arms? If you mean forcing her to do it then i don't think he has a powerful genjutsu to do so.


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mabui said "your flesh won't be able to handle it, you'll be ripped to shreds."
> Mabui could have said the same thing if someone wanted to tried to tank a kunai to their neck "your flesh won't be able to handle it,  you'll be decapitated."
> 
> "You'll be shredded" is pretty vague definition. There are millions of techniques in Naruto world that can do the exact same thing.
> ...



Being ripped to shreds doesn't even translate to a kunai stab lol. You know why ? Cause a kunai stab only slashes through one area. The Justu attacks every area at once. Every single area around the neck , head , and chest area .And you just answered your own question . Even if it did translate to the effects of a kunai strike, Tsuande survived Mabuis teleportation technique just fine , so she'll survive a kunai strike just fine even assuming it magically replicates the effects of the slash of a kunai simultaneously to every part of her body .

Another fact you always seem to forget is that Mabui didn't even think the Raikage would survive ; 16
Knowing how much more durable the Raikage is to a regular Shinobi ... The average Shinobi must have been almost nothing after the Justu. So surviving the same Justu in Tsunades state is a DURABILITY FEAT. That's the point ? If she wasn't durable she wouldn't bs able to kick and cast seals . She would been pieces on the ground . She didn't "need' SS at all. She probably could have continued fighting Madara for hours in that state . It would have been a stupid thing however considering the change in physical ability.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Being ripped to shreds doesn't even translate to a kunai stab lol. You know why ? Cause a kunai stab only slashes through one area. The Justu attacks every area at once. Every single area around the neck , head , and chest area .And you just answered your own question . Even if it did translate to the effects of a kunai strike, Tsuande survived Mabuis teleportation technique just fine , so she'll survive a kunai strike just fine even assuming it magically replicates the effects of the slash of a kunai simultaneously to every part of her body .
> 
> Another fact you always seem to forget is that Mabui didn't even think the Raikage would survive ; 2
> Knowing how much more durable the Raikage is to a regular Shinobi ... The average Shinobi must have been almost nothing after the Justu. So surviving the same Justu in Tsunades state is a DURABILITY FEAT. That's the point ? If she wasn't durable she wouldn't bs able to kick and cast seals . She would been pieces on the ground . She didn't "need' SS at all. She probably could have continued fighting Madara for hours in that state . It would have been a stupid thing however considering the change in physical ability.



Mabui was wrong. That pretty much shows that she was worrying way too much.

Also I am gonna call fanfiction on the last part, Tsunade needed SS. Being able to fight for hours in that state ? Based on what ? 

And I retain my position on this one. The point was to show that the jutsu was extremely harmful and only a special kind of durability would survive it. Raikage did, Tsunade survived it with Genesis rebirth, taking significant amount of damage in the process.. The only reason why she went in in the first place was because of Genesis rebirth. This is rather a testament to her regeneration abilities, rather than her durability.


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mabui was wrong. That pretty much shows that she was worrying way too much.
> 
> Also I am gonna call fanfiction on the last part, Tsunade needed SS. Being able to fight for hours in that state ? Based on what ?
> 
> And I retain my position on this one. The point was to show that the jutsu was extremely harmful and only a special kind of durability would survive it. Raikage did, Tsunade survived it with Genesis rebirth, taking significant amount of damage in the process.. The only reason why she went in in the first place was because of Genesis rebirth. This is rather a testament to her regeneration abilities, rather than her durability.



Mabui was wrong because she didn't think that Raikage or Tsuande would survive a Justu that shreds people. If anything that helps my argument more as she had doubt that someone as super durable as Raikage would survive. Meaning the results to the average human must have been devastating considering the clear wide gap of Raikage to average Shinobi.

Tsuande survived for hours in a far worse state; being bisected and bleeding out. I admit it's far fetched to assume she's going to fight against Madara Uchiha for hours. But against an opponent that isn't actually destroying her body she can actual last awhile. She was battle capable, and she definitely didn't " need " SS.

And you can retain your position all you want . That's not going to change the fact that your wrong. What Tsuande did was a feat of durabilty as she wasn't turned into a puddle of skin and blood. She instead retained her composition and the ability to throw a kick as fast as the Raikage.  That makes her a massive amount more durable then a regular  Shinobi. You also aren't even looking at this from a logical standpoint. The Justu isn't like a regular Justu. It destroys the body EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. Meaning the scratches she retained on the outside is how durable her skin truly is when pitted against a Justu that shreds people. This also means Itachis going to have to outdo this Justu both on the outside and inside. Not possible.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Mabui was wrong because she didn't think that Raikage or Tsuande would survive a Justu that shreds people. If anything that helps my argument more as she had doubt that someone as super durable as Raikage would survive. Meaning the results to the average human must have been devastating considering the clear wide gap of Raikage to average Shinobi.
> 
> Tsuande survived for hours in a far worse state; being bisected and bleeding out. I admit it's far fetched to assume she's going to fight against Madara Uchiha for hours. But against an opponent that isn't actually destroying her body she can actual last awhile. She was battle capable, and she definitely didn't " need " SS.
> 
> And you can retain your position all you want . That's not going to change the fact that your wrong. What Tsuande did was a feat of durabilty as she wasn't turned into a puddle of skin and blood. She instead retained her composition and the ability to throw a kick as fast as the Raikage.  That makes her a massive amount more durable then a regular  Shinobi. You also aren't even looking at this from a logical standpoint. The Justu isn't like a regular Justu. It destroys the body EVERYWHERE AT ONCE. Meaning the scratches she retained on the outside is how durable her skin truly is when pitted against a Justu that shreds people. This also means Itachis going to have to outdo this Justu both on the outside and inside. Not possible.



I think everyone here knows that Tsunade has above average durability. Although what you are suggesting here is, aka tanking kunai to the neck, is waaaaay above average durability. That requires feats for justification. Orochimaru tanked Tsunade's punch to his face, the same punch that cracked ribcage Susano'o. But then Itachi casually chopped his hand off with a kunai. 
Characters can tolerate high amounts of blunt trauma, but sharp steel weapons are a different story. Always have been.

Like I said, we don't know how much her internals suffered. If she had a collapsed lung, I am pretty sure she wouldn't survive for hours without healing it.

The mangaka doesn't think such technical details. If he had, then how do you explain the shreds on her flesh ? If lightspeed travel puts equal pressure on every inch of her body, then why did she get scarred in certain areas ? Are you suggesting that every inch of her skin has different level of durability ? Obviously not. And obviously the author can't go very graphic when depicting such instances. She was bleeding on the outside and on the inside, and she used genesis rebirth. Extra emphasis was put on her wounds. Like I said, it was a testament to her regeneration, not her durability. If durability was involved in it, then clearly the author didn't care enough to empahsize it.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think everyone here knows that Tsunade has above average durability. Although what you are suggesting here is, aka tanking kunai to the neck, is waaaaay above average durability.



Tensō no Jutsu kills normal people instantly. Normal people aren't even killed instantly by the wounds they suffered in the attack by Pain, and Tsunade's wounds were canonically _way less than even that_, which would require way above average durability.



> Orochimaru tanked Tsunade's punch to his face, the same punch that cracked ribcage Susano'o. But then Itachi casually chopped his hand off with a kunai.



You just compared an out-of-breath, out-of-shape, out-of-practice Tsunade to current Tsunade and said they were the same....

That is silly.

Besides, you're actually citing an abnormality, because Orochimaru's durability stems largely from his elasticity/flexibility, which has a much more profound effect on blunt force than penetrative forces; the former is much easier to shift to accommodate the impact of.

That's not the case with Tsunade, whose body is anatomically normal but just plain tough. Again, in addition to the Tensō no Jutsu accomplishment, the legendary Kusanagi no Tsurugi did significantly less damage to her than Sasuke's non-Raiton-flowed sword did to Danzō, who sat up after being smacked across the field by Susano'o. She definitely has a resistance to slicing damages present, and a rather respectable one at that.


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## Veracity (Oct 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think everyone here knows that Tsunade has above average durability. Although what you are suggesting here is, aka tanking kunai to the neck, is waaaaay above average durability. That requires feats for justification. Orochimaru tanked Tsunade's punch to his face, the same punch that cracked ribcage Susano'o. But then Itachi casually chopped his hand off with a kunai.
> Characters can tolerate high amounts of blunt trauma, but sharp steel weapons are a different story. Always have been.
> 
> Like I said, we don't know how much her internals suffered. If she had a collapsed lung, I am pretty sure she wouldn't survive for hours without healing it.
> ...



Tsuandes Durability is not just above the average Shinobi. It's FAR ABOVE an average Shinobi considering the average Shinobi immediately died and was shredded while Tsuande retained composition and could attack easily. That alone should tell you her Durabily is closer to Ay's then a regular Shinobi. Then there's the feat of ranking yasaka without hardly breaking the skin. The average Shinobi would have been obliterated by that technique.

For one, an already exhausted rusty part 1 Tsunade doesn't punch as hard as current Tsuande and for two , oro has an elastic body. His body isn't normal like Tsuandes. It's specfically durable against blunt attacks in comparison to sharp attacks. So again, it doesn't compare much here.

Even if the manga makes it obvious that cutting attacks > blunt attacks, we have canon proof of Tsuande surviving a technique that cuts the user on a massive scale across the entire body. So we already have a feat of her surviving cutting damage.

Lol a punctured lung ? That's not even close to surviving being completely bisected in two pieces with their guts spilled on the ground.

Because certain areas of her body are durable then others ? The same applies to even us.  The only reason extra emphasis was put on her wounds was to make it evident that she was less durable then Ay, but still more durable then the average individual. Kishis lack of massive detail doesn't take away from the fact that 
A) the attack targets the entire body
B) The attack is a lot more severe then a kunai strike
C) the attack turned the average Shinobi into shreds.
D) Tsuande survived with only scratches on her body and the ability to move and kick meaning she was able to fight.

And then we know that the technique attacks all the body at the level of above or equal to a kunai strike . And we know that the attack targeted Tsuandes neck, head and face and didn't do any severe damage to said parts( and we know that her outsiders are > to her insides). So yes do tell how Itachi is going to swing a kunai through her neck ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsuandes Durability is not just above the average Shinobi. It's FAR ABOVE an average Shinobi considering the average Shinobi immediately died and was shredded while Tsuande retained composition and could attack easily. That alone should tell you her Durabily is closer to Ay's then a regular Shinobi. Then there's the feat of ranking yasaka without hardly breaking the skin. The average Shinobi would have been obliterated by that technique.
> 
> For one, an already exhausted rusty part 1 Tsunade doesn't punch as hard as current Tsuande and for two , oro has an elastic body. His body isn't normal like Tsuandes. It's specfically durable against blunt attacks in comparison to sharp attacks. So again, it doesn't compare much here.
> 
> ...



Tsunade has pretty durable eye balls and eye lids. 

I am sorry but I think I made my point, and unless you can refute it, then I am done here.



FlamingRain said:


> *Tensō no Jutsu kills normal people instantly*. Normal people aren't even killed instantly by the wounds they suffered in the attack by Pain, and Tsunade's wounds were canonically _way less than even that_, which would require way above average durability.



Evidence for the bolded.



> You just compared an out-of-breath, out-of-shape, out-of-practice Tsunade to current Tsunade and said they were the same....
> 
> That is silly.
> 
> ...



Nit picking. Tsunade was refreshed after using genesis rebirth, which was basically years of stored chakra. And Orochimaru got a clean full powered hit to his face and his face was intact and as a matter of fact, he got up after a few seconds later.
Itachi casually chopped his hand off.  Orochimaru's face hasn't shown any elasticity features, his torso/neck/lower body did(because he resembles a snake). And by acknowledging this, you are basically acknowledging the difference between blunt and piercing/slashing type attacks. Which is more than I can ask for.

My point stands. Refute it if you can.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Why would she use Chakra Scapel when she has a much more dangerous weapon in her arms? If you mean forcing her to do it then i don't think he has a powerful genjutsu to do so.



That's exactly what I mean.


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## RedChidori (Oct 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> The fact that Itachi has pre-cog, is faster and only needs a quick gaze at Tsunade's eyes in order to put her in a genjutsu.



This . Itachi fucks Tsunade over in mere milliseconds.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Magatama is actually blunt. And there is no evidence that Madara's Magatama is actually "Yasaka's."
> For all we know, Itachi has Totsuka, Yata and Yasaka's Magatama, because those 3 pieces are a part of  the imperial regalia.



Magatama have pointed, jagged edges and spin violently, they aren't blunt. 



Itachі said:


> We know about Tsunade's durability but we don't know about Itachi's strength. He was able to stop one of Sasuke's Fuma Shuriken with a kunai but I doubt that that could translate very easily to this situation.



13 year old Itachi obviously isn't physically stronger than Madara's Yasaka Magatama.​​


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## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Evidence for the bolded.



Viz:

*"The transportation rate is so fast that the body cannot keep up, and one just comes out torn apart and dead on the other side!"​*
If they _come out_ already dead, they'd have been killed instantly, because the transport itself is going _lightspeed fast_. Mabui would know, too, because going by this subsequent claim:

_*"The only one who has ever successfully traveled using this Jutsu is the Third Raikage! // And only then because of his extra-tough physique!"​*_
the Raikage was not the only person she ever sent through that thing, he was merely the only one to ever get through it _successfully_, the observation of which is what her previous statement was based on.



> Tsunade was refreshed after using genesis rebirth, which was basically years of stored chakra.



Regeneration, which is what that stored up Chakra had been directed towards, doesn't remove fatigue.



> And Orochimaru got a clean full powered hit to his face and his face was intact and as a matter of fact, he got up after a few seconds later.



What is your point here?

....I hope you don't seriously think that I somehow explained _why his face was still intact_ without first _knowing that his face was still intact_.



> Orochimaru's face hasn't shown any elasticity features, his torso/neck/lower body did(because he resembles a snake).



Snakes have especially malleable faces, and so does Orochimaru _(1)_. By the way, look at his head's angle compared to his shoulders in this
_(2)_ scan- if his extreme elasticity weren't playing into his ability to absorb that shot it would have snapped clean off and went flying.



> And by acknowledging this, you are basically acknowledging the difference between blunt and piercing/slashing type attacks.



Once again, the Kusanagi, which hurt Enma in his adamantine form, did far less to Tsunade than Sasuke's normal sword did to Danzō, so this disparity between the effectiveness of blunt and penetrative attacks is obviously not so great that it will allow Itachi to cleave off her head with a kunai.

Your point never stood to begin with.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Viz:
> 
> the Raikage was not the only person she ever sent through that thing, he was merely the only one to ever get through it _successfully_, the observation of which is what her previous statement was based on.


It is a matter of expression. There is absolutely no evidence that an average person would die *instantly*. You are just guesstimating here. 



> Regeneration, which is what that stored up Chakra had been directed towards, doesn't remove fatigue.


It surely, does. Genesis rebirth completely heals the body, why would the fatigue remain ? 



> What is your point here?
> 
> ....I hope you don't seriously think that I somehow explained _why his face was still intact_ without first _knowing that his face was still intact_.


I am not going to re-explain my point lol. It is pretty clear. Re-read my previous posts.



> Snakes have especially malleable faces, and so does Orochimaru _(1)_. By the way, look at his head's angle compared to his shoulders in this
> _(2)_ scan- if his extreme elasticity weren't playing into his ability to absorb that shot it would have snapped clean off and went flying.


Thats him shedding his skin while using oral rebirth Not his actual face.

And yeah, being elastic might have prevented his neck from breaking, but it doesn't help with anything else. He still took the hit straigth to his face. 



> Once again, the Kusanagi, which hurt Enma in his adamantine form, did far less to Tsunade than Sasuke's normal sword did to Danzō, so this disparity between the effectiveness of blunt and penetrative attacks is obviously not so great that it will allow Itachi to cleave off her head with a kunai.


I absolutely have no idea what you'r talking about here. Oro's sword was pretty effective on Tsunade. 



> Your point never stood to begin with.


I can't help you if you have problem with common sense.Orochimaru - Tsunade's punch - Kunai  argument is solid enough to end this debate. I don't see any reason to continue this debate any further.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Magatama have pointed, jagged edges and spin violently, they aren't blunt.
> 
> ]​




Only the bottom end is pointed. It has a significant girth, and it isn't sharp on other parts. It is pretty blunt.​


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## Veracity (Oct 26, 2014)

@grimm
I doubt Kishi would illustrate her eyes and eyelids being oblierated that's just unlike him. And that still doesn't stop the fact that the Justu effected her whole body anyway...

And concession accepted on the rest.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @grimm
> I doubt Kishi would illustrate her eyes and eyelids being oblierated that's just unlike him. And that still doesn't stop the fact that the Justu effected her whole body anyway...



So your saying that her eye balls and eye lids are more durable than rest of her body, rather than admitting that Kishimoto randomly put some wounds on her so that we could see she was damaged by the technique(further evidenced by the use of genesis rebirth). Not accounting in nit pickers while doing that.
Doesn't fly bro.



> And concession accepted on the rest.


I didn't concede to anything but whatever floats your boat.

Kunai > Orochimaru > Tsunade's punch. 
All the evidence you need :ignoramus


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## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is a matter of expression.



Grimmjowsensei logic: "come out dead on the other side" = "matter of expression".

Yeah no.

The evidence is Mabui's statement, which necessitates instant death because in order to come out of the transportation already dead on the other side the people in question would have _had_ to die _during_ the transport, which occurs at light speed. You can't die during that transport and _not_ have died _instantly_.



> Genesis rebirth completely heals the body, why would the fatigue remain ?



Probably because fatigue is not something that constitutes a physical injury, and the point of Sōzō Saisei is to negate physical injuries.

Consider that Tsunade began showing signs of tiredness well before Byakugō, the completed form of Sōzō Saisei, ran out during the battle against Madara Uchiha, and then ask yourself again if it really makes sense that regeneration actually removes fatigue.



> Thats him shedding his skin while using oral rebirth Not his actual face.



Based on *what* is that not his actual face? You yourself point out Orochimaru resembling a snake. I don't know what kind of twigs you'd have to be chewing on to think that this would justify everything _except_ his face being stretchy, since, after all, snakes have extremely elastic faces as well.

If Orochimaru's head weren't naturally flexible then he would have just torn through it instead of stretching it out wide, just like Sasuke ripped through his chest/stomach as opposed to simply stretching out of his mouth when he used the same exact same Jutsu.



> I absolutely have no idea what you'r talking about here. Oro's sword was pretty effective on Tsunade.



Those wounds were awfully shallow in comparison to what Danzō suffered. A strike from a kunai will only be less significant, because the Kusanagi is just that good.



> I don't see any reason to continue this debate any further.



So you _do_ realize how retarded what you're saying is.

Kunai break on Susano'o, but Susano'o break beneath Tsunade's fists.

Orochimaru > Tsunade's punch >>> Kunai.

Why did a Kunai pierce Orochimaru, then? Because where the durability stems from just makes that much of a difference.

Tsunade's durability doesn't come from elasticity, though, so yeah looking to Orochimaru to claim that a Kunai will be sufficient to decapitate Tsunade is a pretty crappy tactic to go with.


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## Veracity (Oct 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So your saying that her eye balls and eye lids are more durable than rest of her body, rather than admitting that Kishimoto randomly put some wounds on her so that we could see she was damaged by the technique(further evidenced by the use of genesis rebirth). Not accounting in nit pickers while doing that.
> Doesn't fly bro.
> 
> 
> ...



Except the fact that Kishi just didn't randomly put marks on her body to emphasize damage. He did so to imply that she had been damaged in certain places but not everywhere as he could have easily warped her to the scene with Byakago already activated to show regeneration. Instead he warped her to the battlefield with no active regeneration. Then showed her survive intact with the ability to throw kicks, which in turn  Immediately throws the accusation that she " needed " regeneration out the window. She clearly didn't need regeneration as she was actively able to move , she chose to use it herself which is much different.

You clearly conceded to what I have said considering you came at my entire post with 2 sentences of bullcrap; not even beginning to counter a single thing I said. 

Exactly for that has nothing to do with this thread. Oro has an elastic body made for countering blunt force trauma. Tsuandes body structure is entirely different. Instead of using a completely out of context example, why not use one that fits perfectly for this thread ?

Tsunade > Mabuis technique > Kunai.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Only the bottom end is pointed. It has a significant girth, and it isn't sharp on other parts. It is pretty blunt.



So? It still has pointed edges, therefore it is still sharp, and therefore still inflicts cutting damage that >>> a kunai.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

@ flamingrain @likes boss

Guys sorry but like I said, I am done with this. I made my point and apparently you can't refute it. 

Trying to get around it and nitpicking surely doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely 0 evidence to suggest that Tsunade's skin is tough enough to stop a sharp metal weapon, especially on an area as fragile as her neck.

And like I already mentioned, Orochimaru has better durability feats than Tsunade(tanking Tsunade's punch to the face) and he isn't durable enough to tank a kunai, because of the simple fact that characters deal with blunt trauma better than they deal with piercing/slashing ones.

I see no reason to continue this debate any further. Have a nice day.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> So? It still has pointed edges, therefore it is still sharp, and therefore still inflicts cutting damage that >>> a kunai.​​



Just look @ the shape of Magatama and tell me how that is similar to a kunai


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## Rocky (Oct 27, 2014)

Lol Grimmjow, they did refute it. Mabui's technique isn't blunt, and Tsunade dealt with that just fine, so you didn't really have a point to to begin with.

 It isn't Tsunade's skin the has to stop the Kunai. The shredder cut her up pretty significantly. It's just that the stuff behind the skin was too tough to be torn apart by a Jutsu the tears things apart, and that's more than Itachi has ever accomplished with  Kunai anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Lol Grimmjow, they did refute it. Mabui's technique isn't blunt, and Tsunade dealt with that just fine, so you didn't really have a point to to begin with.


No they didn't, I adressed the part about Mabui's tech. There is nothing quantifiable about it, other than Mabui's words. 
That technique isn't blunt, but we also have no idea what it is. Besides, she was seriously wounded by it.



> It isn't Tsunade's skin the has to stop the Kunai. The shredder cut her up pretty significantly. It's just that the stuff behind the skin was too tough to be torn apart by a Jutsu the tears things apart, and that's more than Itachi has ever accomplished with  Kunai anyway.



The best Itachi accomplished with a kunai is tear Orochimaru's hand off. Best durability feat of Orochimaru is tanking Tsunade's hit to his face(also Kn1 Naruto's, if you consider how far that hit sent him).  Best durability feat of Tsunade ? Tanking Magatama. Unless you think Magatama is stronger than Tsunade's full powered punch, then we are done here.


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## Veracity (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No they didn't, I adressed the part about Mabui's tech. There is nothing quantifiable about it, other than Mabui's words.
> That technique isn't blunt, but we also have no idea what it is. Besides, she was seriously wounded by it.
> 
> 
> ...



Except for you didn't even begin to refute anything. You're under this impression that we can't refute what your saying but it's the other way around. You aren't even thinking logically at the moment at all. You're saying that because we have nothing more then a character state for Mabuis technique that it can't be taken seriously here( you of all people with he Yata bullshit) even though the statement is clear and obvious as hell. The victims were ripped to shreds. Simple as that . I don't know what else you need to know ? Kishi clearly gives us that statement to mean that, and nothing else. What else would you need to clarify that? 

We clearly have an idea of what the technique does as both AY and Tsuande had scratch wounds. The notion that the victims were ripped to shreds would also fit more clearly with a cutting or slashing kind of damage as opposed to anything else. Please do prove what other type of damage could have been inflicted ?

She was never seriously wounded by it to begin with . She was able to throw a kick. SS was used to push her performance back at its peak. Not cause it was needed.  If it was needed then Tsunade would have had Byakugo activated before she even went through. That's like the most clear indication that she was durable enough to survive the technique. Even if it did severely damage her, that still wasn't enough to kill her. So why the hell would Itachi be able to do anything more then severely wound her ? Your assuming at 13 hes going to supersede the effects of a Justu that destroys opponents with a simple Kunai.

Except for THATS the dumbest logic ever. You seem to not understand that ORO and Tsuande do not have the same body composition. That's changes everything. Base bee can tank Lariats and chidori but BM bee gets shredded by shiruken. Even BM bee regains his composition from a BjuiiDama but is effected by Chidori's beam sword. Bee and oro both have specific bodies to withhold extreme blunt trauma but fail against cutting damage. But you know what ? They don't have bodies even similar to Tsuandes at all. Not even fucking close. So you really can't use oro as an example to justify Tsunade ?

Also this Tsuandes full powered punch thing isn't going to fly. Part 1 rusty and exhausted Tsuande doesn't punch even on the same caliber is current Tsuande. There's also reason to assume she wasn't even using chakra enhanced strength at that time. So I'm pretty sure an argument can be made for Yasaka > Rusty Tsuandes punch. Even if it needed to be.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Also this Tsuandes full powered punch thing isn't going to fly. Part 1 rusty and exhausted Tsuande doesn't punch even on the same caliber is current Tsuande..



Like I said, this debate is over for me but this part interested me. Didn't bother with the rest of the fanfic(not using chakra enhanced strength Madara's mini magatama being > Tsunade's punch).

Can you point out the difference between the two ?


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 27, 2014)

This isn't a lock thread? Seriously mods?

Okay let's go ahead and get one thing straight for people. 13 year old Itachi put a genjutsu on Orochimaru and cut off his hand. Let's examine multiple facts here. For one, Orochimaru was not trying to beat him up, kill him, or cause any harm to him at all. He was trying to take over his body. Secondly, Orochimaru can regrow his limbs. Thirdly, Orochimaru stared right into his eyes to try and take over his body making no attempt to avoid his genjutsu.

Now let's talk about the fight. Tsunade sees the sharingan and knows of the potential for genjutsu. She immediately avoids eye contact and summons a tiny slug to put on her body to cancel any genjutsu. Since she is not trying to take over his body she actually makes a means to avoid genjutsu. Now let's assume this Itachi is the exact same in every way to the Itachi that came to the village/beginning of part 2.

Itachi basically only has katons, bunshins, taijutsu, and weapons as his means for attack. Suitons too. Gai kicked away Kisame's suiton. Tsunade is much stronger than Gai and Kisame has stronger suitons than Itachi. So Tsunade easily knocks away his suitons. Sakura dodged Itachi's katon, so Tsunade does the same since she is smarter, more intelligent, has more experience, faster, and is a better medic. She also showed to block someone's katons that were stronger. She can dodge kunai/shuriken just like Chiyo was doing against a very skilled weapon user in Sasori (both medics/similar experience and speed). In CQC taijutsu, Tsunade is more skilled and stronger but Itachi has more speed and the sharingan. This means Itachi can not afford to block ANYTHING against a more skilled user and has to dodge everything. Now if HIdan with his 4.5 tier taijutsu skill and 3.5 tier speed can match Kakashi's 4.5 tier speed, 4.5 tier taijutsu and 3 tomoe sharingan in CQC then Tsunade who has a greater advantage skill wise and more of a disadvantage speed wise against Itachi here should be able to do something similar. HOWEVER, Itachi can't block here and can only dodge which will probably make the fight look something more like Kisame vs Gai where Gai is overwhelmed by Kisame's strength.

This is not including Genesis Rebirth or more than a small Katsuya for summoning. Her Byakugou can be activated to account for any bunshin blindsides. Oh and Itachi won't be as skilled, strong, and smart as a 13 year old.

Tsunade obviously wins this with mild difficulty.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 27, 2014)

Databook says Orochimaru wasn't obsessed with taking an Uchiha body until _after_ 11-year-old Itachi "completely defeated him."​


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## Veracity (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, this debate is over for me but this part interested me. Didn't bother with the rest of the fanfic(not using chakra enhanced strength Madara's mini magatama being > Tsunade's punch).
> 
> Can you point out the difference between the two ?



Part 1 Tsuandes exhausted punch knocked oro this far back: [1]

Yasaka knocked Tsuande this far and obliterated a boulder from impact: [1]


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Part 1 Tsuandes exhausted punch knocked oro this far back: Link removed
> 
> Yasaka knocked Tsuande this far and obliterated a boulder from impact: Link removed



That was when she was @ the brink of death, before even she used Genesis Rebirth.

The fact that Orochimaru wasn't even phased shows that punch was weaker than this : Link removed

Or this : Link removed
Link removed


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## Amol (Oct 28, 2014)

Tsunade wins .
She possess finest chakra control. She certainly can break standard Genjutsu(not talking about MS).
She just needs to summon small Katsuyu to prevent further genjutsu attempt via partner method.


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## Veracity (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was when she was @ the brink of death, before even she used Genesis Rebirth.
> 
> The fact that Orochimaru wasn't even phased shows that punch was weaker than this : petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)
> 
> ...



I assumed you were talking about that one... But you do understand that Tsuande was at her limit at that point ?? That punch couldn't have been too hard considering she was basically tired out by that point: petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)
Not to mention that punch was still illustrated to do less damage then the yasaka did. And then we have to take into consideration how much damage each individual took. Oro received critical head trauma and was beaten down enough to flee, while Tsuande took the attack with almost no damage received.

The there examples were ones where Tsuande was almost fresh. It's also to note that the crater an individual creates is much smaller when channelled through an opponent . Like Tsuande vs Sussano clone or Base Riduko naruto vs Madara.


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## GearsUp (Oct 28, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> This isn't a lock thread? Seriously mods?



yeah you can say that again


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I assumed you were talking about that one... But you do understand that Tsuande was at her limit at that point ?? That punch couldn't have been too hard considering she was basically tired out by that point: petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)
> Not to mention that punch was still illustrated to do less damage then the yasaka did. And then we have to take into consideration how much damage each individual took. Oro received critical head trauma and was beaten down enough to flee, while Tsuande took the attack with almost no damage received.
> 
> The there examples were ones where Tsuande was almost fresh. It's also to note that the crater an individual creates is much smaller when channelled through an opponent . Like Tsuande vs Sussano clone or Base Riduko naruto vs Madara.



What I am mainly interested in is, what is the difference between pre skip Tsunade and Post skip, in terms of power behind her attacks. Are there any feats to point that out ? 

And she enhances her strength with chakra, as long as she has chakra, she can hit as hard as she can when she is fresh. I don't think the "fatigue" was an issue at all.


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## Veracity (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What I am mainly interested in is, what is the difference between pre skip Tsunade and Post skip, in terms of power behind her attacks. Are there any feats to point that out ?
> 
> And she enhances her strength with chakra, as long as she has chakra, she can hit as hard as she can when she is fresh. I don't think the "fatigue" was an issue at all.



Post time skip Tsuande is alot stronger.  She busts Tsuande and sends Madara flying dozens of meters with one kick - meaning she went through the defense and still injured the body unlike what most attacks do to sussano: petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)

A powerhouse like Ay barely scratches Madara while Tsuande obliterates his body on contact: Link removed
 Then there's the possibly that Byakago increases strength( releases chakra...it's pretty obvious in Sakuras case) and that Justu wasn't even present in part one , so that changes a lot. 

Tsunades part 1 feats( outside of Tanto feat) were pretty fucking lackluster to be honest. 

Except she isn't sakura. She's naturally strong unlike her meaning when the amount of physical force( as opposed to chakra) lessens , it weakens her punch drastically. Then there's the literal panel evidence of her craters getting smaller the more she got tired: Link removed


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 28, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Databook says Orochimaru wasn't obsessed with taking an Uchiha body until _after_ 11-year-old Itachi "completely defeated him."​



Didn't join Akatsuki until after the Uchiha massacre when he was 13. Manga>DB. DB always comes second to the manga. You should know that by now Selim.

Makes sense he wasn't "obsessed" with taking one until after. He underestimated the sharingan's power when he thought he could just stare into Itachi's eyes and not be caught in a genjutsu. His desire increased when he understood better the power the sharingan.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No they didn't, I adressed the part about Mabui's tech. There is nothing quantifiable about it, other than Mabui's words.
> That technique isn't blunt, but we also have no idea what it is.



But Mabui's words exist, soooo... 



> Besides, she was seriously wounded by it.



No she wasn't.



> The best Itachi accomplished with a kunai is tear Orochimaru's hand off.



Orochimaru has been torn up by many things, including Chidori Spear and kid Kabuto's chakra scalpel.  



> Best durability feat of Orochimaru is tanking Tsunade's hit to his face(also Kn1 Naruto's, if you consider how far that hit sent him).  Best durability feat of Tsunade ? Tanking Magatama.



His face was pretty fucked up in both instances, but I don't see how these feats are better than no-selling Magatama and staying alive and well after a run through Mabui's shredder technique.



> Unless you think Magatama is stronger than Tsunade's full powered punch, then we are done here.



I don't see why Magatama isn't stronger than a punch from Base preskip Tsunade.

Current Tsunade's "full powered punch" has cracked Susano'o, so Orochimaru's upper body would have been blown off just like Madara's. Unless of course you are insinuating that Itachi's Kunai > Orochimaru > Tsunade's punch > Susano'o.

Which would be funny.


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## Trojan (Oct 29, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Databook says Orochimaru wasn't obsessed with taking an Uchiha body until _after_ 11-year-old Itachi "completely defeated him."​



the actual text or it did not happen.


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2014)

This is interesting.

People think Edo Itachi vs. Tsunade is close yet base young Itachi vs Tsunade is debatable. Does this mean Edo Itachi = 13 year old Base Itachi?


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## Trojan (Oct 29, 2014)

Well, in theory 13 years old itachi has the MS, and all of his power, and he was not even "sick" 
so he's more or less equal to his edo form. :33


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## Ersa (Oct 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, in theory 13 years old itachi has the MS, and all of his power, and he was not even "sick"
> so he's more or less equal to his edo form. :33


Edo regeneration, regenerating stamina, no blindness are huge for a man whose biggest weakness is his stamina 

People underestimate the gap between sickly, blind Itachi and Edo Tensei Itachi.


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## JuicyG (Oct 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> People think Edo Itachi vs. Tsunade is close yet base young Itachi vs Tsunade is debatable. Does this mean Edo Itachi = 13 year old Base Itachi?



No

Everyone carries their own thoughts on how the battles go down. As for MS-less Itachi, I have to place all the sannin above him, even Orochimaru, yes even him. With MS, Itachi stands higher than each Sannin and is only close match would be SM Jiraiya with prep, not including ET.

Edo Itachi beats them all easily, par ET.


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## Trojan (Oct 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Edo regeneration, regenerating stamina, no blindness are huge for a man whose biggest weakness is his stamina
> 
> People underestimate the gap between sickly, blind Itachi and Edo Tensei Itachi.



Well, he went blind, the stamina thing will take some time. 

- No, they overrate the fuck out of it. 
they go as far as claiming that itachi can solo the 5 Kages, when he can't defeat them even 1 on 1. :rofl



JuicyG said:


> No
> 
> Everyone carries their own thoughts on how the battles go down. As for MS-less Itachi, I have to place all the sannin above him, even Orochimaru, yes even him. With MS, Itachi stands higher than each Sannin and is only close match would be SM Jiraiya with prep, not including ET.
> 
> Edo Itachi beats them all easily, par ET.




Not really, even with MS, itachi is only base Jiraiya level as proven in the manga. lol
and he won't carry a candle to SM Jiraiya,


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> But Mabui's words exist, soooo...


But they don't mean shit, so ? 



> No she wasn't.


Yes she was, she had to use genesis rebirth to survive, just like she announced before she agreed to use Mabui's tech.



> Orochimaru has been torn up by many things, including Chidori Spear and kid Kabuto's chakra scalpel.


All of which would turn Tsuande into minced meat.



> His face was pretty fucked up in both instances, but I don't see how these feats are better than no-selling Magatama and staying alive and well after a run through Mabui's shredder technique.


Mabui's tech = kills average shinobi. Tsunade's punch kills average shinobi too. And Tsuande would most likely die if she didn't use genesis rebrith anyways. The only reason why she decided to use that technique in the first place was because of genesis rebirth.

Mini ribcage Magatama = featless. And Tsunade had Byakugou active, she was constantly regenerating. 

I am not sure how they are more impressive than Orochimaru tanking a clean hit from Tsunade to the face.



> I don't see why Magatama isn't stronger than a punch from Base preskip Tsunade.


Because there is no reason for it to be. I guess that is good enough of a reason 



> Current Tsunade's "full powered punch" has cracked Susano'o, so Orochimaru's upper body would have been blown off just like Madara's.


Based on what ? Can you point out the strength difference between preskip Tsunade and post skip ? And can you prove that Orochimaru and Madara's Mokuton bunshin have the same durability ?



> Unless of course you are insinuating that Itachi's Kunai > Orochimaru > Tsunade's punch > Susano'o.


I am insinuating that flesh is more vulnerable against sharp weapons. Which Orochimaru tanking Tsunade's punch to the face but getting his hand chopped off by a kunai perfectly illustrates.



> Which would be funny.


We've already seen a kunai break on contact with Susano'o, so obviously thats not what I am saying.



Likes boss said:


> Post time skip Tsuande is alot stronger.  She busts Tsuande and sends Madara flying dozens of meters with one kick - meaning she went through the defense and still injured the body unlike what most attacks do to sussano: [2]


Pre skip Tsunade didn't attack Susano'o, so again, how are we to discern ? 

Also the scan you provided was a combo attack of Tsunade + A.



> A powerhouse like Ay barely scratches Madara while Tsuande obliterates his body on contact: [2]


When did A get a clean hit on Madara ? 
And it was a mokuton bunshin, and Madara already admitted that Tsunade was stronger than A.



> Then there's the possibly that Byakago increases strength( releases chakra...it's pretty obvious in Sakuras case) and that Justu wasn't even present in part one , so that changes a lot.
> 
> Tsunades part 1 feats( outside of Tanto feat) were pretty fucking lackluster to be honest.


Aside from the obvious power inflation between two parts, I don't think there is a quantifiable difference between two versions. Being Rusty was mainly an excuse for Tsunade fans to save face.

I am not sure about Byakago increasing strength in Tsunade's case. Hard to make a comparison considering she didn't actually fight before she used it.



> Except she isn't sakura. She's naturally strong unlike her meaning when the amount of physical force( as opposed to chakra) lessens , it weakens her punch drastically. Then there's the literal panel evidence of her craters getting smaller the more she got tired: [2]


Like I said, genesis rebirth had a refreshing effect. After she used it, she summoned Katsuyu, wasn't huffing and puffing and she easily lifted Gamabunta's tanto.
And if the big part of her strength comes from chakra enhnacement, which we know it does, then I don't think her natural strength would matter that much as long as she has chakra to use.

What you said would only make sense if she was so tired that she could hardly swing a punch. Which certainly wasn't the case.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am insinuating that flesh is more vulnerable against sharp weapons. Which Orochimaru tanking Tsunade's punch to the face but getting his hand chopped off by a kunai perfectly illustrates.



If this is all you are trying to say, then that depends on which shinobi we're talking about.

Not all flesh is vulnerable against a Kunai just because it is flesh, and I would think that you agree with that. Tsunade's best feat against a slicing attack is not getting bisected when Orochimaru swung a diamond-cutting sword at her. Clearly, her flesh isn't all that vulnerable just because Orochimaru's is.

I still don't see what a Kunai is going to do.


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## Veracity (Oct 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But they don't mean shit, so ?
> 
> 
> Yes she was, she had to use genesis rebirth to survive, just like she announced before she agreed to use Mabui's tech.
> ...



Considering the effect busting Sussano added to Tsuandes strength, I would assume her busting Sussano was something she couldn't have done in part 1 as in very doubtful to assume Oros face can withstand a Sussano busting attack. You seem to not understand that Tsuande was having trouble breaking through the ground at times:[2]
[2]
And you're telling me that's the strength that obliterated Madara and sent him through his Sussano into a crater in the ground ? Not only is that even logical at this point, but you can even see the difference from glancing at the illustration. It's not complicated at all. It's clear and cut .

And considering everything and all the information I've provided has simply been overlooked or not even argued against, I think it's time for you to explain why the hell rusty Tsuande, who was out of combat for about 20 years, who was mentally and physically out of shape with endurance and chakra limitations would be as strong as current Hokage level and battle capable Tsuande . That's not even logical.

Ay dead on hit Madara here and didn't even skin his arm: [2]
While Tsuande does this: [2]
Considering Ay has feats that supersede or equal part 1 Tsuandes feats, Id assume current Tsuande is vastly superior to part 1 Tsuande.

Moukton Bunshin have the same Durabilty are the same user? Evident by Madara Going through a Mokuton Bunshin at the final moments of the VoTe battle and him confusing it with the real Hasirama. 

You really better not bring power inflation into a debate between a rusty and battle capable Tsuande. Except for there was a very large difference.

You cannot be serious ? There is a huge difference . Part 1 Tsuande: 
?smashes the ground
? fights Kabuto
? heals wounds
? summons Katsuyu
? lifts tanto
? heals wounds 
? punches oro twice
And is completely exhausted. Part 2 Tsuande summons Katsuyu and uses a mobile SS( the Justu most taxing in part 1) to simultaneously heal the entire nation of the leaf and still survives. She then fights Madara Uchiha( and Sussano clones) for hours while using Byakago( consume affine regeneration that consumes way more then Ss or regular healing) while chakra replenishing the kage. The difference is astounding between battle performence, mental thinking, and endurance between the two.

This is ridiculous at this point. Do you want me to sit here and walk you through everything ? Okay. Here we have Sakuras punch before she releases her seal:  [2]
And here's her punch after she releases it: [2]
Big difference ? Of course. She's releasing her seal which increases her chakra reserves, which in turn allows here to increase the amount of chakra in each one of her punches. It's the same thing Tsuande does when she activates Byakago.

 I'm going to assume that's a concession on your part considering me and FR both explained how regeneration doesn't change fatigue . After she broke her phobia, she was more focused and that may have taken away from her visually looking exhausted . That doesn't change anything though as you can be exhausted and still not look exhausted. Tsuande was so exhausted she fell unconscious in mid air and still looked less worn out then in part 1. 

Are you serious ? You realize that Tsuande has enough natural strength to toss Buntas Tonto? If she looses that strength it's going to effect her striking ability drastically . If anything it's more balanced then with sakura.


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## Baroxio (Oct 31, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> *Didn't join Akatsuki until after the Uchiha massacre when he was 13*. Manga>DB. DB always comes second to the manga. You should know that by now Selim.
> 
> Makes sense he wasn't "obsessed" with taking one until after. He underestimated the sharingan's power when he thought he could just stare into Itachi's eyes and not be caught in a genjutsu. His desire increased when he understood better the power the sharingan.


Scans? 

Meanwhile, I'll just leave this here:



Baroxio said:


> This is later going to be a series where I attempt to deconstruct certain popular misconceptions surrounding certain elements of Itachi debates.
> 
> The first, and arguably easiest to deconstruct, is the argument that Orochimaru had health problems during his and Itachi's first encounter as a result of him needing to switch bodies.
> 
> ...


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