# Tsunade Vs Oro



## Trojan (Jun 19, 2013)

Location: Sannin's battlefield. 
Intel: None
Distance: 20m
Mindset: Ic

NO EDO. 

I have always believed that
Jman > Tsunade > Oro > Jman. 

and since Oro said
3
"you are free to *kill* me with your Acid once and for all"

3
he said she tried to kill him

3

he said one hit can end your life!

So, do you think she can win against him or no?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 19, 2013)

Chapter didn't change anything, she could already beat him.

_Kusanagi_ didn't work already, _Senei Jashu_ gets Orochimaru reeled in like his tongue did; _Mandara no Jin_ gets obliterated by her _Tsutenkyaku's_ shockwave like it got obliterated by KN4's; _Rashomon_ isn't applicable because Tsunade doesn't use projectile; _Daitoppa_ won't even budge her; Manda was about to try and _eat_ Katsuyu- which would have made him lose as she would just split and start spitting acid in his mouth.

Even _Yamata no Orochi_, his trump card technique, does not possess the strength necessary to overwhelm her and she can bat any heads that attack her in the opposite direction, if not outright sever them while doing so. I also believe his poisonous blood should be counteracted by _Byakugo no Jutsu_, since Narutoverse poisons are apparently cellular degeneration while _Sozo Saisei_ and Byakugo no Jutsu are cellular generation and regeneration. (And all that other stuff about how Tsunade is a toxicology expert who has counteracted Chiyo's, and likely Hanzo's poisons, and I doubt poison would slip her mind when she says she gains a form of immortality.)

Meanwhile Tsunade hit Orochimaru _once_ and it knocked him out. He wasn't in the best shape, but she was also 20 years rusty and less formidable physically. If she doesn't knock him out he'll definitely be forced to use _Oral Rebirth_, and while Orochimaru is a chakra beast, he can't outlast someone who can heal thousands of villagers twice over and fight for extended amounts of time while restoring Kage level chakra reserves for others.

So~, the Slug Princess wins after a very hard fight.

Unless Orochimaru has _Edo Tensei_ prepped that is. . .in which case her only hope would be Hashirama realizing who she was and beating the crap out of Orochimaru as a result.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2013)

^

True, but I always see some people think she's weaker or even not in the same level as the other two. lol 
or she's slow ...etc 

and since it has been a long time since the last thread I saw for them, I though it might be a good
I idea to open one!


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## Alex Payne (Jun 19, 2013)

Orochimaru the Honest. Everything he speaks is true


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## FlamingRain (Jun 19, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Orochimaru the Honest. Everything he speaks is true



Honesty is a result of being converted.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 19, 2013)

Katsuyu's ability to kill Orochimaru with her acid is contingent on her ability to HIT Orochimaru with her acid.

So it is with every other Jutsu-vs.-shinobi comparison; just because a Jutsu CAN kill doesn't mean it will.

And Oro was clearly just saying that to gain Katsuyu's trust; it's obvious he doesn't want to die yet, and he wasn't going to pull anything right then and there to piss her off, so he was just telling Katsuyu she could kill him in order to reassure her that he came in peace.

That said, Orochimaru wins this. Fushi Tensei for the body-snatching win.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 19, 2013)

Of course it becomes easier to hit someone if you're made up of thousands of clones scattered all over the field.

Orochimaru can't use _Fushi Tensei_ until 3 years have passed, when his body is rejecting him. . .and even though it wasn't specified I would assume this is a "healthy" Orochimaru.

He also has to _swallow_ Tsunade first, and she could probably stop him like Gai stopped the shark from swallowing him. Or just dodge the snake.

And if it's a battle of willpower like I think it is. . .I'm not sure about him succeeding even if he did swallow her.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 19, 2013)

FlamingRain summed it up perfectly. I haven't much to add, honestly.

I will say that only some poisons function by degenerating cells, and its unknown if Orochimaru's functions in the same way as Naruto's Rasenshuriken. So that's an issue up in the air. At any rate, Tsunade can locate and remove poisons very quickly from her body with the _Saikan Chūshutsu_, she also has an infinite number of Katsuyu clones to protect her even when she's not able. Though Tsunade's pain/damage resistance is incredible, so I am skeptical to believe a paralysis poison would immobilise her in a hurry.

Tsunade wins, but with great difficulty.​​


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## Gangryong Ma (Jun 19, 2013)

Hard one... it could go both ways.

Both of them are nearly invincible and know many of each other's abilities.  Depends on who can outlast who IMO.  I'm leaning towards Tsunade due to her recent feats and Katsuyu's acid.


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## Turrin (Jun 19, 2013)

Orochimaru really lacks a way to put Tsunade down for good as Byakugo + Katsuya allows Tsunade to tank or regen any damage he can dish out. Heck even if he managed to cut her in half with Ksunagi sword as long as she has enough chakra in her Byakugo seal it doesn't seem as if that's all that big of an issue. Also while Orochimaru does have some poison capabilities via his snakes, i'm sure Tsunade is familiar with them and if she hasn't already built up a tolerance to them, i'm sure she can cure them in battle w/o much difficulty. The one poison which could prove troublesome is the White Snake Venom, but I feel like going WSM is more risky for Orochimaru than it is Tsunade as it makes him much more vulnerable to attack, which is really bad against Tsunade.

On the flip side of this Tsunade only needs to hit Orochimaru once and while before this recent chapter that seemed like a very difficult taks, although not impossible, after this chapter revealing Katsuya's acid can also kill Orochimaru & even when Katsuya divides she can still use acid makes this much more plausible. After all even for Orochimaru it's going to be darm hard evading dozens (if not hundreds) of Katsuya spitting acid at him, while at the same time not getting hit once by Tsunade. So I think her chances of landing a blow before she exhausts the chakra in her seal on Byakugo or Gensis has dramatically increased. 

Of course all of this is still ultimately dependent on how much chakra Tsunade has in that seal of hers. The more chakra she has in the seal the longer she can stay impervious to Orochimaru's attacks and the longer she has to land her own attacks. If it's a small amount of chakra like she displayed in Part I where she could only use Gensis for a rather brief instance, than I'm going to say Orochimaru would take this as he'd probably last longer than Byakugo and than after that he'd cut her down. However if she starts to get a significant amount of chakra in her seal like say she had when Pain invaded, than Orochimaru might be screwed as she'd be able to keep Byakugo up long enough where chances are very good that Orochimaru would get hit by Acid or Smashy Smashy.

However I'm not sure it's fair to give Tsunade tons of pre battle prep to store chakra in her seal, while restricting Orochimaru's own pre battle prep move Edo Tensei. Honestly I think that the OP should at least give Orochimaru his Part I level Edo Tensei if you want a fair comparison of the two Sannin, I.E. Handicapped Hashirama & Nindaime. I wouldn't give Orochi his new Hokage summons just because I don't think the OP is talking currently but back before J-man's death. 

Anyway if we give Orochimaru his two Edo Tensei, while they are handicapped, I still think that bit of extra fire power would flip things to Orochimaru's favor (Even if Tsunade is given a large chakra reserve in the Yin Seal), especially since Tsunade's kill moves don't work on Tensei. So I still do not think Tsunade has cought up to Orochimaru in combat prowess and I still believe she is trailing behind, despite the recent chapter.

Tsunade is still needs yet another major combat prowess boost like Katsuya's acid reveal this chapter to truly be on par with the likes of J-man and Orochimaru in combat. However this chapter has certainly closed a great deal of the gap, which is great. Now Kishi just needs to commit with some more Tsunade or Slug feats. Make it happen Kishi.

So to answer the question for me the Sannin currently rank this way:

SM J-man > Orochi w/ Part I Edo Tensei > Tsunade w/ Large amount of chakra in Byakugo Seal > Base J-man = Orochi w/o Edo Tensei > Tsunade w/ little to no chakra in Yin Seal


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## Kanki (Jun 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> However I'm not sure it's fair to give Tsunade tons of pre battle prep to store chakra in her seal, while restricting Orochimaru's own pre battle prep move Edo Tensei.



I think they're slightly different situations. Tsunade is in a constant mode of storing her chakra to use at any given time. Orochimaru on the other hand, specifically sets up the Edo Tensei for an intended fight. That's how we've seen ET used so far anyway.

Fights usually happen when they're arranged, when there's an ambush or when two sides just happen to cross paths. An ambush can happen either way so there's 4 options there - in 2 of them Orochimaru can have his Edo-Tensei prepared whilst in all 4, Tsunade would have her seal stored up with chakra unless the plot dictated that she had just used all of it.

This is a fair fight IMO. I strongly disagree that Base Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru without E/T as well, though that's for another day.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 19, 2013)

Also, I don't think this latest chapter has changed anything other than proving that cutting Tsunade in half won't kill her as long as she has enough chakra. We already knew Katsuyu could spit acid, we already knew she could spit acid in clones (it was fairly stupid to assume otherwise), and we already knew acid could kill Orochimaru (it could instantly melt rock). Orochimaru can always just shed his body/skin to escape acid attacks they way he can do with Tsunade's blows, but it was always safe to assume it had enough potency to kill him whenever shedding his skin wasn't an option.​​


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## Grimsley (Jun 19, 2013)

tsunade can beat orochimaru now? :


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## Turrin (Jun 19, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> I think they're slightly different situations. Tsunade is in a constant mode of storing her chakra to use at any given time. Orochimaru on the other hand, specifically sets up the Edo Tensei for an intended fight. That's how we've seen ET used so far anyway.


Back in Part I Tsunade does not bother to store much chakra in her seal ether. In Part II both up their game. Tsunade starts storing more chakra in her seal and Orochi begins to look for away to get his Tensei back, even-though there isn't a predestined battle. Though perhaps a better thing for me to have said is that were pitting the feats of an armless Orochimaru against a Tsunade whose at the top of her game, I.E. the max amount of chakra we've seen in her seal.



> Fights usually happen when they're arranged, when there's an ambush or when two sides just happen to cross paths. An ambush can happen either way so there's 4 options there - in 2 of them Orochimaru can have his Edo-Tensei prepared whilst in all 4, Tsunade would have her seal stored up with chakra unless the plot dictated that she had just used all of it.


This does not account for the rarity of these encounters. Most encounters happen with both parties knowing they are going into combat soon. The other scenario's are much more rare in the manga.

For example in the Wave Arc we did have a few ambushes, but in the final battle both sides knew they were going to face their enemy at some point. The entire Chuunin exams most characters knew that their enemies were lurking around and waiting to make their move; ether because they were in matches or because they caught on to Orochi being behind the scenes. In the Sannin arc, all members knew that Tsunade was making a deal with Orochi, that could result in battle. In the rescue Sasuke arc, the Sound 4 knew they were invading enemy territory and could fight, as did the members of rescue Sasuke team when they chased after Sasuke.

In the Suna arc Sasori and Deidara knew they were going into battle & Gaara spotted Deidara before he choose to engage him. Later throughout the whole arc Akatsuki and Konoha knew they were going to see combat. In the rescue Sasuke V2 mission both sides knew they were going to see combat at the Heaven and Earth bridge; maybe Orochi suspected it would be Sasori, but still. In the immortals arc Kakuzu/Hidan knew they were going into combat to capture high bounties and Jinchuuriki, like wise the Ninja Shotai knew they were going into combat with Akatsuki.

In Uchiha brothers arc, both Sasuke and Itachi knew of their upcoming conflict, same thing with J-man and Pain. Deidara was an ambush tho, but Sasuke had already been prepared to see combat with other Akatsuki in his hunt for Itachi.

In the Pain arc Sasuke vs B was an ambush, but in the case of the battles against Pain both sides knew they were going to see combat. In the Kages arc Sasuke knew he was going into combat and the Kages were alerted of Sasuke infiltration before going to battle with him. And the war arc speaks for itself.

So 90% of the time both sides know they are going to see combat, so I think most of the time Orochimaru could grab 2 Fodder sound ninja to sacrifice for Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama, that is if he had his arms in tact.



> This is a fair fight IMO. I strongly disagree that Base Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru without E/T as well, though that's for another day.


Who said stronger I said equal and I also said based on what's shown so far, which basically amounts to an armless Orochimaru. And I stand by that because the thing people forget is even w/o entering SM J-man can still summon two Sage Toads independently of this and a small Toad Armada. With arms and Edo Tensei (even the weakened ones) Orochimaru would certainly be better than Base J-man, but w/o arms and no Tensei I think it's a close contest.

The whole Sannin deadlock has become kind of pointless anyway now that Orochimaru is head and shoulders above the other two to a point where nether will ever catch up to him.


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## Shizune (Jun 19, 2013)

Never did I think I'd see the day when BD consensus would have Tsunade contending with Orochimaru.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 19, 2013)

Nitty Scott said:


> Never did I think I'd see the day when BD consensus would have Tsunade contending with Orochimaru.



1. Edo Tensei has been restricted, so this Orochimaru is unduely nerfed.

2. People seem to be pretending like Fushi Tensei doesn't even exist, which is strange.

3. People seem to be forgetting about Oro's true form and the paralyzing blood vapors it possesses, which Tsunade definitely doesn't know about with the no-knowledge stipulation.


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## Shizune (Jun 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Edo Tensei has been restricted, so this Orochimaru is unduely nerfed.



Orochimaru has only ever had Edo Tensei prepared once in the manga, and that was for the purpose of a fight he'd been gearing up for for decades. His mastery of the technique is relatively low, so I don't think it can be considered a regular part of his arsenal. A crippled body can be considered an undue nerf; lacking ET prep, not so much.



Nikushimi said:


> 2. People seem to be pretending like Fushi Tensei doesn't even exist, which is strange.



I don't think anyone neglected Fushi Tensei's existence so much as there's a lack of faith in its success rate. Orochimaru may not even get the chance to cast the jutsu, as his white snake form and the possession ritual leave him with a multitude of vulnerabilities against a particularly lethal opponent. Our lack of information about the process makes this a toss-up, not to mention a completely out of character move against a host that Orochimaru has no interest in.



Nikushimi said:


> 3. People seem to be forgetting about Oro's true form and the paralyzing blood vapors it possesses, which Tsunade definitely doesn't know about with the no-knowledge stipulation.



And you're forgetting how fragile Orochimaru's true form is. If Tsunade gets close enough to be effected by the vapor, Orochimaru is already done for. At best the residue may force a tie, but there's a strong likelihood Tsunade would be able to recover.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 19, 2013)

Nitty Scott said:


> Orochimaru has only ever had Edo Tensei prepared once in the manga, and that was for the purpose of a fight he'd been gearing up for for decades. His mastery of the technique is relatively low, so I don't think it can be considered a regular part of his arsenal. A crippled body can be considered an undue nerf; lacking ET prep, not so much.



Current Orochimaru has thoroughly debunked the old notion that Oro didn't have Edo Tensei prepped at all times as one of his standard Jutsu.

He's shown the ability to use four Edo Tensei simultaneously and we don't even have any reason to believe that's the limit.



> I don't think anyone neglected Fushi Tensei's existence so much as there's a lack of faith in its success rate. Orochimaru may not even get the chance to cast the jutsu, as his white snake form and the possession ritual leave him with a multitude of vulnerabilities against a particularly lethal opponent. Our lack of information about the process makes this a toss-up, not to mention a completely out of character move against a host that Orochimaru has no interest in.



Tsunade's body is probably even more ideal for Sage Mode than Kimimaro's; I wouldn't say Orochimaru has no interest in it, particularly when he has shown interest in possessing bodies of comparatively low appeal (or has at least done so out of necessity).

And I really don't think Orochimaru of all people has to worry about vulnerabilities in a form that is virtually impossible to kill and can neutralize the enemy without their awareness.



> And you're forgetting how fragile Orochimaru's true form is. If Tsunade gets close enough to be effected by the vapor, Orochimaru is already done for. At best the residue may force a tie, but there's a strong likelihood Tsunade would be able to recover.



"Fragile"? He survived being turned into cold cuts by Sasuke. Any damage he sustains is going to be totally irrelevant once he steals Tsunade's body, which she has no way to prevent once she's paralyzed.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 19, 2013)

a ''particularly lethal opponent''...smfh.

0ro wins w/ his summons & his kusanagi


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## Shizune (Jun 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Current Orochimaru has thoroughly debunked the old notion that Oro didn't have Edo Tensei prepped at all times as one of his standard Jutsu.



In what way exactly?



Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade's body is probably even more ideal for Sage Mode than Kimimaro's; I wouldn't say Orochimaru has no interest in it, particularly when he has shown interest in possessing bodies of comparatively low appeal (or has at least done so out of necessity).



Your logic is not Orochimaru's logic. He's made it clear his interest lies exclusively in powerful bloodline limits. Seeing the incredible lengths and risks he undertook in his pursuit of the Kaguya and Uchiha bloodlines, it stands to reason that if he wanted Tsunade's body, he would have attempted to claim it long ago.



Nikushimi said:


> And I really don't think Orochimaru of all people has to worry about vulnerabilities in a form that is virtually impossible to kill and can neutralize the enemy without their awareness. "Fragile"? He survived being turned into cold cuts by Sasuke. Any damage he sustains is going to be totally irrelevant once he steals Tsunade's body, which she has no way to prevent once she's paralyzed.



Orochimaru has indeed proven that all his forms are largely impervious to piercing damage, but he's also shown a weakness to Tsunade's blunt damage. I have little faith that any technique Orochimaru possesses will have him tanking the hits that Madara's Susanoo couldn't. Being cut apart and being hit with the massive impact that Tsunade condenses into her fist are two very different forms of damage.


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## Mithos (Jun 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> So to answer the question for me the Sannin currently rank this way:
> 
> SM J-man > Orochi w/ Part I Edo Tensei > Tsunade w/ Large amount of chakra in Byakugo Seal > Base J-man = Orochi w/o Edo Tensei > Tsunade w/ little to no chakra in Yin Seal



SM Jiraiya is not > Oro w/ Part 1 Edo Tensei. If Oro actually fights alongside them, there is no way for Jiraiya to win in most scenarios. Even Part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama were "Hokage level." Because of power inflation their feats don't seem like it, but through portrayal I can't see Jiraiya clearing 2 immortal Kage level ninja and Orochimaru, who is already portrayed as having the match-up advantage over him, at the same time.


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## joshhookway (Jun 19, 2013)

Snake ocean gg. Tsunade has no counters for that.


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## LostSelf (Jun 19, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> SM Jiraiya is not > Oro w/ Part 1 Edo Tensei. If Oro actually fights alongside them, there is no way for Jiraiya to win in most scenarios. Even Part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama were "Hokage level." Because of power inflation their feats don't seem like it, but through portrayal I can't see Jiraiya clearing 2 immortal Kage level ninja and Orochimaru, who is already portrayed as having the match-up advantage over him, at the same time.



They are the same with power inflation or not since they were revived with 15% of their power in part 1. Even if Oro revives them now with thier 15% of power they will have the same abilities they had in part 1 and someone like pt. 1 Hiruzen could defeat them.

SM Jiraiya should be able to confortably deal with them with their 15% of strenght.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

Both run into a problem of killing the other. Tsunade and her Byakugo will make it hard for Orochi to kill her and Orochi's oral rebirth+ being made out of snakes among others make it hard for Tsunade.

When it comes to boss Summoning Katsuyu won't be as big of a help as it would be for Tsunade. When have seen Manda dodged Katsuyu's  Zesshi Nensan at close range followed by wrapping her up and Katsuyu being saved by the chief toads attack and lastly dividing. The most Katsuyu can do is cover Tsunade and protect her but if Katsuyu does that then Tsunade can't go on offense due to her entire body being covered. Other then that her smaller slugs will likely just get ran over by Manda. With Manda to take care of Katsuyu and generic large fodder as well as 1,000 snakes with swords popping out of their mouths should provide a good amount of time of distraction for Orochi to try and get a clean shot in until Tsunade takes out and deals with the snakes upon which he might or might not actually land the clean hit.

With Orochi's true form of a huge white snake made of a bunch of smaller snakes, its pretty much gonna screw Tsunade up here. Orochi was slashed up into 3 pieces and was still fine to move and talk as well as Orochi having a paralyzing poison. With such this means that even if Tsunade lands a blow on Orochi and do something simliar to this, Orochi should still be fine and Tsunade would likely feel the effects and go down giving Orochi an easy shot to finish her.

Nothing else in Orochi's usable arsenal is gonna put her down as it consist of snakes,sword slashes, and Rashomon gates. Tsunade on the other hand has nothing in her arsenal to put Orochi down bar a direct hit and even then it might or might not kill him due to being made out of snakes as well as him now having a Zetsu body along with his oral rebirth and others. Other wise it becomes who can outlast who upon which has me favoring Orochi more times then not. A zetsu body is able to let someone live without food or drinks and with the Zetsu body being pure Hashi DNA this means Orochi who already had quite a bit of chakra+stamina, gains quite a bit more. Tsunade using Byakugo is constantly wastign chakra and killing herself in the long run, she's more likely to run out of fuel and energy before Orochi. And with Orochi skillset he can easily hide/get away from Tsunade and outlast her.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2013)

> Both run into a problem of killing the other. Tsunade and her Byakugo will make it hard for Orochi to kill her and Orochi's oral rebirth+ being made out of snakes among others make it hard for Tsunade.



but Oro can't use that jutsu so much, perhaps 3 or 4 times before he run out of chakra?


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2013)

Snake wave gg 

^no, he's never actually hit such a limit in a scenario where his body wasn't malfunctioning.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> but Oro can't use that jutsu so much, perhaps 3 or 4 times before he run out of chakra?



Never said he would use it much, just listed it as something he could use. Also Orochi now has a body that was 100 percent Hashi DNA. That should boost the amount times he could use it.


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## Mithos (Jun 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Tsunade using Byakugo is constantly wastign chakra and killing herself in the long run, she's more likely to run out of fuel and energy before Orochi. And with Orochi skillset he can easily hide/get away from Tsunade and outlast her.



Tsunade not only has greater natural chakra reserves but also has another large set stored up in her seal. 

The only way he can outlast her is if he keeps forcing her to regenerate while taking almost no hits himself. I don't see this happening. 

Besides, Tsunade has a couple ways to get around his regeneration: that medical ninjutsu she was going to use back in Part 1; and Katsuyu's acid. Granted, neither will be easiy to land but one hit from her back in Part 1 knocked him out momentarily. If she lands a hit on him like that, she may have time to land one of them. 

Slug > Snake. Without Edo Tensei, he can't beat her.



TheIronMan said:


> They are the same with power inflation or not since they were revived with 15% of their power in part 1. Even if Oro revives them now with thier 15% of power they will have the same abilities they had in part 1 and someone like pt. 1 Hiruzen could defeat them.
> 
> SM Jiraiya should be able to confortably deal with them with their 15% of strenght.



Where are you getting "15%" from? 

Old Hiruzen was still the strongest of the Kages at that time, so I don't see how it's a put down that "someone like pt. 1 Hiruzen" beat them.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> SM Jiraiya is not > Oro w/ Part 1 Edo Tensei. If Oro actually fights alongside them, there is no way for Jiraiya to win in most scenarios. Even Part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama were "Hokage level." Because of power inflation their feats don't seem like it, but through portrayal I can't see Jiraiya clearing 2 immortal Kage level ninja and Orochimaru, who is already portrayed as having the match-up advantage over him, at the same time.



"Hokage level" means something different in Part I than it does in Part II. In Part I people were calling Hiruzen Doton Wall and Tobirama's Water Wall Hokage level. That is laughable compared to the feats we have seen from Hokages since then, heck many Jonin have reproduced as good if not better feats than those. Now in Part II Hokage level means being able to take part in erecting a barrier than can contain the fricken Juubi. There's a big difference here and it's due to power scaling & retecon.

So Tobirama and Hashirama were hardly Hokage level back then, heck there display is not on par with any Kage in Part II even the least impressive ones like Yondaime Kazekage and Mei far outclass them in feats. Hell even among the named Jonin they barely come off as slightly above average by Part II standards, considering you have guys like Darui throwing around Suitons w/o water sources which aren't even close to his best move, etc...

So really Orochimaru with Edo Tensei gains some powerful pawns no doubt, but they are still a far cry from Kage level. As for comparing this to SM J-man the thing is SM J-man also has two powerful allies via Fusaku/Shima and honestly they are more impressive than Edo Tobirama and Hashirama if for no other reason than Frog Song (though they have other abilities which I'd argue are at least as useful to J-man as the Edos abilities are to Orochi) and on top that they are more useful as they are not mindless and can thus share knowledge and strategize with J-man in a way that the Edo's can not. So in terms of useful helpers I feel the Sage Toads exceed the Tensei in this regard.

Than it's just down to comparing SM J-man to Orochimaru, and while I will admit that we've never seen Orochi go all out with arms, the very fact that Jiraiya mastered (or nearly mastered) SM, while Orochimaru could never attained the mode at all, makes me believe that SM J-man would at least have the slight edge over anything Orochimaru was capable off back than. This is talking portrayal of course, if we go by feats though I think the gap is even more decisive as SM J-man bests Orochimaru in every Ninja Art, except Hand-seals and intelligence. Yamata no Orochi is really the only thing that would keep Orochimaru even in the game against SM J-man, but honestly if we look at Techniques like Yomi Numa & Gamma Yu Endan, and than think about the size and scope of them even w/o Senjutsu amplification, as well as look at the sheer number of boss summons J-man can pull out, and finally the fact that all J-man needs to do to win is buy enough time for Frog Song, I think it becomes very clear that Yamata no Orochi (from feats) is not enough to present an insurmountable challenge to SM J-man.

Though I don't want to go to far down the road of this discussion as currently I find it pointless since current Orochimaru blows even SM J-man away by a mile in strength, so Kishi kind of settled the need for such a debate with the enhancements he recently gave Orochi.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't understand why people are so sure Tsunade will even be paralyzed by Orochimaru's poison. She still runs around while her arm, leg, and respiratory muscles are severed and other things that should have paralyzed her like severing her spinal cord have failed to do so, and Orochimaru's poison probably works no differently than the type described as cellular degeneration, which should be covered by Sozo Saisei/Byakugo.



Matto-sama said:


> SM Jiraiya is not > Oro w/ Part 1 Edo Tensei. If Oro actually fights alongside them, there is no way for Jiraiya to win in most scenarios. Even Part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama were "Hokage level." Because of power inflation their feats don't seem like it, but through portrayal I can't see Jiraiya clearing 2 immortal Kage level ninja and Orochimaru, who is already portrayed as having the match-up advantage over him, at the same time.



Jiraiya Yomi Numa's the coffins. Katsuyu sucks them in and de-summons those divisions.

Through portrayal any of the Sannin would have beaten Hiruzen like 10/10 unless he, for whatever reason, decided to skip right to Shiki Fujin when he didn't do so against Orochimaru even _with_ Edo Tensei.

So the "Hokage level" thing is kind of gone now. Part 1 Edo are fodder and didn't benefit from the power inflation, which is why Kishi bothered to point out that they were weakened.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade not only has greater natural chakra reserves but also has another large set stored up in her seal.



Thats pretty neat. This sadly doesn't change the fact that in the long run her body will give out before Orochi's body will. 



> The only way he can outlast her is if he keeps forcing her to regenerate while taking almost no hits himself. I don't see this happening.



Her body will give out before his. She needs to eat and drink to live. While she may be able to go hours without such, eventually she'll need it. ORochi on the otherhand doesn't and can outlast her. 



> Besides, Tsunade has a couple ways to get around his regeneration: that medical ninjutsu she was going to use back in Part 1;



Because you know exactly what it could do to suggest it would do such as of now.



> and Katsuyu's acid.



It could but its unlikely to actually hit him.



> Granted, neither will be easiy to land but one hit from her back in Part 1 knocked him out momentarily. If she lands a hit on him like that, she may have time to land one of them.



True but the chances of her landing a hit on Orochi if he doesn't want her to isn't likely to happen. 



> Slug > Snake.



WHich is why Katsuyu beat Manda in their fight, oh wait...



> Without Edo Tensei, he can't beat her.



Then we'll agree to disagree.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Slug > Snake. Without Edo Tensei, he can't beat her.
> .



I must point out that I do not think the manga has demonstrated that Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad applies to anything other than how the Sannin's Boss Summon Combat stacks up. This is why the only time the chapters are titled Sannin or 3 way dead lock are the ones where the Boss Summons are brought out. I mean other wise one must believe that Sakura is able to beat Sasuke, which are extremely unlikely to be true; as they are the new deadlock. 

However when looking at it from just the perspective of their Boss Summon Combat abilities, the deadlock does make sense. Manda's main form of attack is to eat the enemy, which would prove deadly when up against Katsuya, since Katsuya could split up into doezens of acid spitting slugs that would melt Manda from the inside out. This is much like the actual Sannin folklore where the Snake dies because he's eaten the slug which is poisonous to him. However J-man and Bunta would be ideal in taking out dozens of copies of Katsuya with their Gamma Yu Endan Technique, which covers a massive area of effect. However this would (& in-fact did) prove in-effective against Manda, due to Manda's ability to shed it's skin and escape underground. 

So the boss summon combat fits the deadlock, but i'm seriously unsure at the moment that the Sannin as a whole are suppose to represent this deadlock.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2013)

Seriously though, the mandara no jin jutsu alone would give Tsunade enough difficulty for an opening or two, or three; she doesn't even have a way to get rid of them efficiently and Orochimaru can, you know, just do it again.  

Other than that, I assume Orochimaru has his arms now, he can implement the hand-seal dependent Juinjutsu and bite her. The fight would be over in a few moments.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2013)

Her heel drop would get rid of them efficiently enough. And she can axe-kick the ground as many times as he can barf up all those snakes.

If he extends his neck towards her she will just punch him in the face like she did in Storm 1.



Bonly said:


> Her body will give out before his. She needs to eat and drink to live. While she may be able to go hours without such, eventually she'll need it. ORochi on the otherhand doesn't and can outlast her.



The Zetsu bodies' ability to go without food or water has no bearing on their chakra capacity though, which is the issue here.

This fight will be over long before Tsunade gets too hungry to continue. It isn't going to last for days.



> Because you know exactly what it could do to suggest it would do such as of now.



It was a Shosen with excessive chakra pumped into it, which would overload his circulation and put him into a coma if not kill him. She was just using a larger version of the jutsu Kabuto used on Kiba.



> WHich is why Katsuyu beat Manda in their fight, oh wait...



Yeah Katsuyu would have beaten Manda. Had Gamabunta let Manda bite Katsuyu she would just start spitting acid everywhere in his mouth, and he would die while Katsuyu doesn't.


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## Mithos (Jun 20, 2013)

Turrin said:


> "Hokage level" means something different in Part I than it does in Part II. In Part I people were calling Hiruzen Doton Wall and Tobirama's Water Wall Hokage level. That is laughable compared to the feats we have seen from Hokages since then, heck many Jonin have reproduced as good if not better feats than those. Now in Part II Hokage level means being able to take part in erecting a barrier than can contain the fricken Juubi. There's a big difference here and it's due to power scaling & retecon.



No it doesn't. There's been a ridiculous power inflation since then. But going by that power inflation, logically we'd scale Hiruzen and the Edo Hokage duo up. 

Visually "Hokage level" has changed due to power inflation but plot-wise and story-wise it has not. 




Turrin said:


> So Tobirama and Hashirama were hardly Hokage level back then, heck there display is not on par with any Kage in Part II even the least impressive ones like Yondaime Kazekage and Mei far outclass them in feats. Hell even among the named Jonin they barely come off as slightly above average by Part II standards, considering you have guys like Darui throwing around Suitons w/o water sources which aren't even close to his best move, etc...



There is no "hardly" about it. They were "Hokage level" plain and simple. This is manga canon. 

Visually "Hokage level" has changed, but as I just said, story-wise it has not. So at the very least, the Edo Hokages as they were would at least be comparable to Kages like Mei and Gaara as they are now. 

Darui is nowhere near "Hokage level," so whatever his suiton feats are Part 1 Tobirama would - with the current power inflation - have suiton jutsus more powerful. 



Turrin said:


> So really Orochimaru with Edo Tensei gains some powerful pawns no doubt, but *they are still a far cry from Kage level*. As for comparing this to SM J-man the thing is SM J-man also has two powerful allies via Fusaku/Shima and honestly they are more impressive than Edo Tobirama and Hashirama if for no other reason than Frog Song (though they have other abilities which I'd argue are at least as useful to J-man as the Edos abilities are to Orochi) and on top that they are more useful as they are not mindless and can thus share knowledge and strategize with J-man in a way that the Edo's can not. So in terms of useful helpers I feel the Sage Toads exceed the Tensei in this regard.



You're ignoring manga canon. They are Kage level, Kishimoto made this clear. 

Ma and Pa are more impressive feat-wise only when you ignore power inflation. You can't compare Part II feats that are power-inflated to Part I feats. 



Turrin said:


> Than it's just down to comparing SM J-man to Orochimaru, and while I will admit that we've never seen Orochi go all out with arms, the very fact that Jiraiya mastered (or nearly mastered) SM, while Orochimaru could never attained the mode at all, makes me believe that SM J-man would at least have the slight edge over anything Orochimaru was capable off back than. This is talking portrayal of course, if we go by feats though I think the gap is even more decisive as SM J-man bests Orochimaru in every Ninja Art, except Hand-seals and intelligence. Yamata no Orochi is really the only thing that would keep Orochimaru even in the game against SM J-man, but honestly if we look at Techniques like Yomi Numa & Gamma Yu Endan, and than think about the size and scope of them even w/o Senjutsu amplification, as well as look at the sheer number of boss summons J-man can pull out, and finally the fact that all J-man needs to do to win is buy enough time for Frog Song, I think it becomes very clear that Yamata no Orochi (from feats) is not enough to present an insurmountable challenge to SM J-man.



It was implied that Orochimaru had an imperfect form of Sage Mode - just as Jiraiya's form is also imperfect. Really the only thing that puts SM Jiraiya above Orochimaru are feats, which Jiraiya has much more of in Part II. 

I think Jiraiya would struggle immensely to put down Yamata no Orochi, but I don't want to argue on it too much since this isn't a Jiraiya vs Orochimaru thread. 



Turrin said:


> Though I don't want to go to far down the road of this discussion as currently I find it pointless since current Orochimaru blows even SM J-man away by a mile in strength, so Kishi kind of settled the need for such a debate with the enhancements he recently gave Orochi.



I don't see how current Orochimaru is that much stronger than he was back in Part 1. The main reason he is so much stronger now than he was at the beginning of Part II is because he has his arms and jutsu back.

***Sorry my responses to your paragraphs are so short, but most of what you wrote revovles on the premise that the Edo Hokage were not Kage level - but they were, as the author made clear. Not to sound confrontational, but your mentality - shared by most of the posters in the BD - is too dependent on feats in my opinion. Feats are still subjective, since we often have no way to accurately compare how another character would have been able to react or fare in a similar situation without them having faced a common opponent to compare. Also just going by feats, which have become incredibly power-inflated, leads us to conclusions such as the Edo Hokage were not Kage level in Part 1. Visually, yes, it's hard to call them that when we compare them to what we see from "kage level" ninja now. However, the author made it clear that they were "Hokage level" so arguing that they aren't because of feats is pointless, because at this point you're arguing with the author himself. I believe that if we took power-inflation into account, the Edo Hokages would have been around Mei or Gaara's level, which makes sense. They were Kage level, as Gaara and Mei are, and Hiruzen was, even when old, the strongest of the Kages at that time - meaning Old Hiruzen in Part 1 is stronger than Oonoki regardless of feats. So someone stronger than Oonoki taking on two people on Gaara and Mei's level and coming out on top after a hard battle is not unrealistic. The BD needs to listen to author portrayal of characters much more, in my opinion.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Her heel drop would get rid of them efficiently enough. And she can axe-kick the ground as many times as he can barf up all those snakes.


It wouldn't. It's insufficient, hopelessly so, when considering what did counter them.  


> If he extends his neck towards her she will just punch him in the face like she *did in Storm 1.*



In what? Never-mind. That's why I said opening. But anyway, her defending herself from a tech that could end the battle with a bite for long is highly unlikely.

edit: I mean a seal and a bite.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Zetsu bodies' ability to go without food or water has no bearing on their chakra capacity though, which is the issue here.



It was stated(i'm to tired/lazy to look for it now) before the time skip that stamina can be converted into chakra. More stamina means more chakra. Hashi's cells seem to give a people quite a bit of stamina which means more chakra. 



> This fight will be over long before Tsunade gets too hungry to continue. It isn't going to last for days.



This depends on how the battle plays out and Orochi goes about the fight. If he wants he can make it last days.



> It was a Shosen with excessive chakra pumped into it, which would overload his circulation and put him into a coma if not kill him. She was just using a larger version of the jutsu Kabuto used on Kiba.



Which was stated where?



> Yeah Katsuyu would have beaten Manda. Had Gamabunta let Manda bite Katsuyu she would just start spitting acid everywhere in his mouth, and he would die while Katsuyu doesn't.



So even though each summoning had been around each other quite a bit before the Sannin split up and seem to know quite a bit about each other, the chief toad stopped Manda even though he would know it would have been effective for Manda to bite down as well as Manda knowing it would be bad for him, he would do it anyway? Yeah I'm going how Manda made Katsuyu useless for the fight.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> It's insufficient, hopelessly so, when considering what did counter them.



How so? There's nothing to suggest KN4's strength eclipses Tsunade's own. The shockwave KN4 dispersed them with wasn't even as large as the one V1 Bee caused when he punched the ground Taka was standing on and demolished the cliff.

Meanwhile Tsunade popped a larger hole in Madara with just the surface area of her fist than Killer Bee did to Sasuke with his entire arm, and this is the same Madara that tanks Ay's punches without so much as bruising while Ay ~ V1 Bee at least until the time of the Kisame fight which happened after his encounter with Sasuke. So she's got much better strength feats.

Now Tsutenkyaku is supposedly Tsunade's strongest strike as opposed to that punch she dealt Madara, so the destruction it would cause were she to strike the ground after having gotten back into shape should be more than enough to disperse the snakes.

If you want to consider it, there's also Kishi bothering to throw in the word "might" when comparing Sakura's new strength to Tsunade's, which means that they're rather close otherwise there would have been no question about it like there was no question about Tsunade being stronger than Ay.

The wall of snakes is not that big compared to any of those things.



Bonly said:


> It was stated(i'm to tired/lazy to look for it now) before the time skip that stamina can be converted into chakra. More stamina means more chakra. Hashi's cells seem to give a people quite a bit of stamina which means more chakra.



I was pretty sure Senju cells just sped up how fast you recover chakra and stamina- which is why Danzo cut Koto's charge from 10 years to 1 day and Tsunade doesn't have to wait 3 years to charge the Yin Seal like Sakura.

But it doesn't mean more chakra than Tsunade in particular.

Tsunade's natural reserves already surpass Orochimaru's, and her Yin Seal apparently contains at least as much chakra as she has in base (since she healed the village once before CST before opening her seal and once after when she used it all up), which would be beyond what any single fodder Zetsu body would logically grant Orochimaru.



> Which was stated where?



It's what happened here.

few
few

The same thing he healed Hinata with knocked Kiba out, because Kiba had no heart injuries for the chakra to go towards healing like Hinata did.

So I'm going to say the same thing would have happened to Orochimaru in the alley had she smacked him with it.

You could _almost_ call it the Medical Ninja version of Juken, I guess.



> So even though each summoning had been around each other quite a bit before the Sannin split up and seem to know quite a bit about each other, the chief toad stopped Manda even though he would know it would have been effective for Manda to bite down as well as Manda knowing it would be bad for him, he would do it anyway? Yeah I'm going how Manda made Katsuyu useless for the fight.



We really don't know that they were around each other for that long before the Sannin split up, though.

The chief toad also fell for Manda's underground feint and he should have expected that just as much as he should have expected Katsuyu to divide. Idr if it was just in the anime or not but I recall Manda also being surprised that Katsuyu could escape him by dividing.

And seeing as how Hanzo's Ibuse was absolutely _tiny_ compared to any of the Sannin's boss summons, I'm going to assume that they hadn't yet used them so often, at least not enough to have any detailed knowledge on each others' abilities.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I was pretty sure Senju cells just sped up how fast you recover chakra and stamina- which is why Danzo cut Koto's charge from 10 years to 1 day and Tsunade doesn't have to wait 3 years to charge the Yin Seal like Sakura.



It was never stated what it does exactly IIRC, all we have seen is that people with it such as Danzo and Obito have quite a bit of stamina, which is what I'm, basing it on. 



> But it doesn't mean more chakra than Tsunade in particular.



Never said it did.



> Tsunade's natural reserves already surpass Orochimaru's, and her Yin Seal apparently contains at least as much chakra as she has in base (since she healed the village once before CST before opening her seal and once after when she used it all up), which would be beyond what any single fodder Zetsu body would logically grant Orochimaru.



This is all pretty neat and everything but this doesn't disprove anything. With the body Zetsu gives, it gives people good stamina. With the body it allows Orochi to not need to eat or drink anything. You can say whatever you for your pro Tsunade argument but it all basically doesn't matter when it comes to my point. In a battle of who outlast who, Orochi will be the winner. If both stayed on the battle field guess who will die of huger eventually? All this is what it all boils down to. At the end of the day Orochi will outlast Tsunade due to Zetsu body, thats a fact. You can think that Tsunade can end the match before hand but that doesn't matter as my point revolves around if it came down to who can outlast who, Orochi would win. Unless you disagree with that conclusion that Orochi can outlast Tsunade, we are done here.



> It's what happened here.
> 
> few
> few
> ...



So it wasn't stated anywhere and you're assuming how that jutsu worked for Hinata and Kiba while assuming Kabuto didn't do anything different and then applying that to what Tsunade did to make such a claim of what that featless thing would have done? In that case we're going to have to agree to disagree.




> We really don't know that they were around each other for that long before the Sannin split up, though.
> 
> The chief toad also fell for Manda's underground feint and he should have expected that just as much as he should have expected Katsuyu to divide.
> 
> And seeing as how Hanzo's Ibuse was absolutely _tiny_ compared to any of the Sannin's boss summons, I'm going to assume that they hadn't yet used them so often, at least not enough to have any detailed knowledge on each others' abilities.



Then we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Mithos (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> So the "Hokage level" thing is kind of gone now. Part 1 Edo are fodder and didn't benefit from the power inflation, which is why Kishi bothered to point out that they were weakened.



That's the problem though. Because jutsu have become power-inflated the Edo Hokage don't look impressive now. But "Hokage level" story-wise has not changed, so if we applied the level of power-inflation in the manga to the Edo Hokage, they would probably be around Mei or Gaara's level. 

Kage level elementals now mean absolutely huge AoE, so it's likely if the Orochimaru vs Hiruzen ight was written in Part II, Tobirama would bust out suiton jutsu on the level, if not greater, of Mei's. 

He pointed out they were weakened because he has now changed the order of power amongst the Hokage. In Part 1 he had decided Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage of all time, supported in 2 Databooks. He couldn't now say Hashirama is actually stronger without giving a reason why Hiruzen was able to beat him - ie. Hashirama was weakened and his "full power" is more than Hiruzen's. That doesn't mean his weakened version wasn't Kage level. 




Bonly said:


> Thats pretty neat. This sadly doesn't change the fact that in the long run her body will give out before Orochi's body will.



There's no reason for her body to give out before his when she has much, much more chakra at her disposal. 



Bonly said:


> Her body will give out before his. She needs to eat and drink to live. While she may be able to go hours without such, eventually she'll need it. ORochi on the otherhand doesn't and can outlast her.



How long do you think that they are going to be fighting that eating and drinking is going to be a concern? They're not going to be fighting for days. 

I also don't see why Orochimaru is exempt from this eating and drinking requirement. 



Bonly said:


> Because you know exactly what it could do to suggest it would do such as of now.



Orochimaru had his body transfer and regeneration back in Part 1, as we saw through Kabuto's flashbacks. If her jutus was going to kill him then, it would kill him now since there hasn't been much of a change. 



Bonly said:


> It could but its unlikely to actually hit him.



The longer the battle goes on, the more likely he is to take a hit by it eventually. 



Bonly said:


> True but the chances of her landing a hit on Orochi if he doesn't want her to isn't likely to happen.



Why? She's demonstrated good speed and reactions against Madara. She can fight for hours because of Byakugou. I don't see Orochimaru evading her for that long, especially not when she can make fissures the size that Sakura just made a couple chapters ago. 



Bonly said:


> WHich is why Katsuyu beat Manda in their fight, oh wait...



They didn't have a long fight. If they fought for longer - just the two of them - Katsuyu would have won. She would have defended until Manda was exhausted and couldn't fight anymore. That's the point of her durability and divisions: to make physical attacks ineffective and exhaust the opponent. 




Bonly said:


> Then we'll agree to disagree.



Sure. 



Turrin said:


> I must point out that I do not think the manga has demonstrated that Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad applies to anything other than how the Sannin's Boss Summon Combat stacks up. This is why the only time the chapters are titled Sannin or 3 way dead lock are the ones where the Boss Summons are brought out. I mean other wise one must believe that Sakura is able to beat Sasuke, which are extremely unlikely to be true; as they are the new deadlock.
> 
> However when looking at it from just the perspective of their Boss Summon Combat abilities, the deadlock does make sense. Manda's main form of attack is to eat the enemy, which would prove deadly when up against Katsuya, since Katsuya could split up into doezens of acid spitting slugs that would melt Manda from the inside out. This is much like the actual Sannin folklore where the Snake dies because he's eaten the slug which is poisonous to him. However J-man and Bunta would be ideal in taking out dozens of copies of Katsuya with their Gamma Yu Endan Technique, which covers a massive area of effect. However this would (& in-fact did) prove in-effective against Manda, due to Manda's ability to shed it's skin and escape underground.
> 
> So the boss summon combat fits the deadlock, but i'm seriously unsure at the moment that the Sannin as a whole are suppose to represent this deadlock.



The Sannin have always been portrayed as relative equals though. The statements about them don't give reason to believe there is a power heirarchy. 

"Even though you are one of those 3 ninjas" [1] 

"Against one of those 'three ninjas,' Orochimaru, another one of the three is needed!" [2]

"It's good that we found him at the ramen shop. But he's protected by one of the legendary three ninjas" [3] 

"She is one of the three nins like me" [4] 

"But you, Tsunade-sama, one of the legendary three shinobi" [5] 

"He's still one of the three ninjas" [6] 

"He was with us...members of the 'three ninjas'" [7] 

"I've been one of the three legendary ninjas" [8] 

"Even Tsunade of the three-nins..." [9] 

"...He's one of you and Tsunade's kind...one of the legendary three ninjas" [10] 

"...in spite of all these years spent away from battle, she still has this power...so this is the power of the three ninjas" [11] 

"It's bad even for me to go against two of the three great ninjas" [12] 

"Why of all the shinobi, Tsunade...one of the legendary three from Konoha..." [13]

"The dominating force of the legendary three..." [14]

"Today is the last time there will be three of the legendary leafs" [15] 

"She's the kunoichi of the legendary three" [16] 

"His father had respect on the same level as the 'legendary Sannin'" [17]

"The three of you are strong...I, Hanzou, will hereby honor you as the 'Sannin of Konoha'" [18]

"Long time no see, Tsunade...you're the only one left of the three ninjas" [19] 

"That is why she is the only one of the three legendary ninjas that has survived until today!!" [20]

"You're my student...a successor to one of the Sannin" [21] 

There are probably more statements, but these are the ones I could find. 21 statements, and not one of them implies that there is a "strongest" or a "weakest" Sannin. They're all respected and regarded equally. 

Since they've been portrayed as so close in power, I think the deadlock is accurate to describe their relationship. First, unlike Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke, the Sannin's move-sets are heavily based off their respected summons. Tsunade is known as the "slug princess," Jiraiya is known as the "toad sage" and Orochimaru is known as a snake. Their move-sets rely heavily upon summoning as well - therefore, I think the deadlock gives a big enough advantage or disadvantage to tip the scales in a match between them. 

Sasuke and Naruto, however, rely on their own skills much more than summoning or summon-based jutsu, so they aren't really affected that much by the deadlock like their mentors are. 




Magicbullet said:


> Seriously though, the mandara no jin jutsu alone would give Tsunade enough difficulty for an opening or two, or three; she doesn't even have a way to get rid of them efficiently and Orochimaru can, you know, just do it again.
> 
> Other than that, I assume Orochimaru has his arms now, he can implement the hand-seal dependent Juinjutsu and bite her. The fight would be over in a few moments.



Sakura's lastest strength feat would destroy or send most of them flying. And since her strength was stated as maybe being stronger than Tsunade's, we can assume that Tsunade can make a fissure at least on par, if not close, to what Sakura did. Mandara no Jin isn't that big of a problem. 

Trying to bite her would be an awful idea. He would have to get in close to do it, which is the last place he wants to be. Or if he stretches his head, his neck gets grabbed and it's the situation where she grabbed his tongue all over again. You're right, the fight would be over in a few moments - cause she would smash him in the face and knock his ass out.


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## Freechoice (Jun 20, 2013)

I think Oro could take Tsunade now that he finally has his arms.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> How so? *There's nothing to suggest KN4's strength eclipses Tsunade's own.* The shockwave KN4 dispersed them with wasn't even as large as the one V1 Bee caused when he punched the ground Taka was standing on and demolished the cliff.


KN4's strength utterly dwarfs Tsunade's. Nothing's she's ever done even remotely compares to this. Rubble flew up to tree-top level, and the resulting shock-wave speaks for itself (the view is also from a significant distance away). Show me where Tsunade's hits have produced anything like a shockwave. I know she's stronger than A, but he can't do that kind of stuff either.
Further more, the explosive force of the hand swipe is what turned the simple attack into an area-of-effect counter. The mere fact none of Tsunade's hits produce anything like a shockwave hints that they're unsuited for the job. 

Edit: And you were talking about this?. Don't think it compares, but the most relevant thing is that B did that by crashing himself into the platform at high velocity, his whole body, not with a punch, certainly not with a swipe of his hand, like KN4 did. 


> Meanwhile Tsunade popped a larger hole in Madara with just the surface area of her fist than Killer Bee did to Sasuke with his entire arm, and this is the same Madara that tanks Ay's punches without so much as bruising while Ay ~ V1 Bee at least until the time of the Kisame fight which happened after his encounter with Sasuke. So she's got much better strength feats.


When did Tsunade pop a hole in Madara? This was wood-clone so which instance are you talking about?


> Now Tsutenkyaku is supposedly Tsunade's strongest strike as opposed to that punch she dealt Madara, so the destruction it would cause were she to strike the ground after having gotten back into shape should be more than enough to disperse the snakes.


Tsutenkyaku was _nothing_ at all compared to what 4T did. 


> If you want to consider it, there's also Kishi bothering to throw in the word "might" when comparing Sakura's new strength to Tsunade's, which means that they're rather close otherwise there would have been no question about it like there was no question about Tsunade being stronger than Ay.


Nothing Tsunade did remotely compares to Sakura's feat. 


> The wall of snakes is not that big compared to any of those things.


What things? Going by feats, it's more than what Tsunade can handle. If she had Sakura's feats then it wouldn't be.

edit: sorry, that first one was supposed to be a link


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It was never stated what it does exactly IIRC, all we have seen is that people with it such as Danzo and *Obito* have quite a bit of stamina, which is what I'm, basing it on.



What does Obito have to do with this?



> Unless you disagree with that conclusion that Orochi can outlast Tsunade, we are done here.



I do.

Not needing to carry out the normal bodily functions of a human does not mean Orochimaru can outlast Tsunade of all people. Tsunade had more stamina than Orochimaru to begin with. Zetsu gives Orochimaru some measure of a boost, but that doesn't equate to him being able to outlast Tsunade when she has _her own_ "boost" in having a second set of chakra stored away.

Hunger will never be a factor, as Orochimaru's _chakra_ will be drained before that ever comes into play. He has a limit on his chakra just like everyone else does and we have nothing to suggest that limit is beyond Tsunade's own.



> So it wasn't stated anywhere and you're assuming how that jutsu worked for Hinata and Kiba while assuming Kabuto didn't do anything different and then applying that to what Tsunade did to make such a claim of what that featless thing would have done? In that case we're going to have to agree to disagree.



There is nothing suggesting he did anything differently, but we see him moving his hand straight from Hinata and no change in the chakra before he touches Kiba and makes him pass out. So I'm not going to assume he did anything differently to it because nothing suggests he did.

We _do_ know that excess chakra injected into the system can cause someone to enter a comatose state, or even die, as that's how Juken does what it does. Because Hinata was hurt, the chakra was not excessive, but it _was_ for the uninjured Kiba.

If you do not find this plausible then yes, we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> There's no reason for her body to give out before his when she has much, much more chakra at her disposal.



False. Over time her body will give out before his does, simple as that.





> How long do you think that they are going to be fighting that eating and drinking is going to be a concern? They're not going to be fighting for days.



So you agree that over time Orochi would outlast Tsunade, thanks. 



> I also don't see why Orochimaru is exempt from this eating and drinking requirement.



Obito got half Hashi's DNA implanted on him. He was told that he doesn't need to drink or eat to survive. They even said they don't need to eat. Orochi took over a full Zetsu body. Orochi having the body of a Zetsu hints that he is exempt just like Obito is since he has more Zetsu inside of him then Obito does.





> Orochimaru had his body transfer and regeneration back in Part 1, as we saw through Kabuto's flashbacks. If her jutus was going to kill him then, it would kill him now since there hasn't been much of a change.



When did Orochi show his regen in part one?  With a Zetsu body, I doubt it.





> The longer the battle goes on, the more likely he is to take a hit by it eventually.



I doubt it.



> Why? She's demonstrated good speed and reactions against Madara. She can fight for hours because of Byakugou. I don't see Orochimaru evading her for that long, especially not when she can make fissures the size that Sakura just made a couple chapters ago.



Because of his jutsu he can use. Shadow clones, small scale Mokuton which he can trip her up, ability to mend into the ground, his speed, ect. He has the jutsu to keep his distance and/or distract Tsunade so he can gain a bit more distance. And to add to it Orochi has basically full knowledge on Tsunade to make his job easier.





> They didn't have a long fight. If they fought for longer - just the two of them - Katsuyu would have won. She would have defended until Manda was exhausted and couldn't fight anymore. That's the point of her durability and divisions: to make physical attacks ineffective and exhaust the opponent.



Assuming Manda would tire out first.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> What does Obito have to do with this?



 Not sure if serious or trolling.





> I do.
> 
> Not needing to carry out the normal bodily functions of a human does not mean Orochimaru can outlast Tsunade of all people. Tsunade had more stamina than Orochimaru to begin with. Zetsu gives Orochimaru some measure of a boost, but that doesn't equate to him being able to outlast Tsunade when she has _her own_ "boost" in having a second set of chakra stored away.
> 
> Hunger will never be a factor, as Orochimaru's _chakra_ will be drained before that ever comes into play. He has a limit on his chakra just like everyone else does and we have nothing to suggest that limit is beyond Tsunade's own.



Well come back after you reread what Obito has done with half a body of Zetsu stamina wise.



> There is nothing suggesting he did anything differently, but we see him moving his hand straight from Hinata and no change in the chakra before he touches Kiba and makes him pass out. So I'm not going to assume he did anything differently to it because nothing suggests he did.
> 
> We _do_ know that excess chakra injected into the system can cause someone to enter a comatose state, or even die, as that's how Juken does what it does. Because Hinata was hurt, the chakra was not excessive, but it _was_ for the uninjured Kiba.



Which is why I said we have to agree to disagree.


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## Mithos (Jun 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> False. Over time her body will give out before his does, simple as that.



You've provided no reason why she would tire out first. 





Bonly said:


> So you agree that over time Orochi would outlast Tsunade, thanks.



If the contest was to see who could sit in the same place without food or water the longest, sure. 

Keep trolling. 




Bonly said:


> When did Orochi show his regen in part one?  With a Zetsu body, I doubt it.



This is before his battle with Hiruzen and the Sannin battle. 

What makes his Zetsu body immune to an attack of pure chakra? 



Bonly said:


> Because of his jutsu he can use. Shadow clones, small scale Mokuton which he can trip her up, ability to mend into the ground, his speed, ect. He has the jutsu to keep his distance and/or distract Tsunade so he can gain a bit more distance. And to add to it Orochi has basically full knowledge on Tsunade to make his job easier.



We don't even know if he can use Mokuton in an effective manner or not. Even so, her strength counters it. 

Melding into the ground is dangerous when she can make fissures on the level she and Sakura can. 

He's not much faster than her, if at all. Speed isn't going to be a deciding factor here. She's not fast enough to evade all of his attacks, and he's not fast enough to dodge all of hers. 

He's not much of a threat if he stays far away. And Tsunade, with shunshin, is about just as fast. He won't be able to keep a large distance between them. 



Bonly said:


> Assuming Manda would tire out first.



He would. 

_NINJUTSU; Katsuyu Daibunretsu (Katsuyu's Grand Division of the Slugs*)
User: Katsuyu
Supplementary; Rank: none

Main text

Capturing her is impossible already! Because she is a boneless mollusk, she has a fantastical ability to transform at will, that of deciding to divide her whole body or to reunite it. All physical attacks are nullified before this technique. No matter how violent the strike, it won't amount to more than a fruitless attempt. The enemy will just exhaust themselves accordingly and eventually fall to the ground.​_
Add in the fact that Tsunade can take down Manda with her strength, but Orochimaru won't have an easy time killing Katsuyu, and Manda is going down first for sure.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> You've provided no reason why she would tire out first.



Already did.



> If the contest was to see who could sit in the same place without food or water the longest, sure.
> 
> Keep trolling.



Concession accepted.



> This is before his battle with Hiruzen and the Sannin battle.



I meant when did he show it in the manga before the time skip, as in before chapter 245.



> What makes his Zetsu body immune to an attack of pure chakra?



It's Senju DNA. That shit seems to be the answer for everything .



> We don't even know if he can use Mokuton in an effective manner or not. Even so, her strength counters it.



He has knowledge on it and now has the body to do such, I see no reason why he can't do something small scale such as when Black zetsu tripped Naruto. Also it doesn't matter if Tsunade can break it, it can stop her for a second or two creating more space if Orochi wants, like I said.



> Melding into the ground is dangerous when she can make fissures on the level she and Sakura can.



True but she won't know where he is and he can get away safely depending on his speed. 



> He's not much faster than her, if at all. Speed isn't going to be a deciding factor here. She's not fast enough to evade all of his attacks, and he's not fast enough to dodge all of hers.
> 
> He's not much of a threat if he stays far away. And Tsunade, with shunshin, is about just as fast. He won't be able to keep a large distance between them.



He doesn't need to be much faster. If he has a bit of a distance on her and they move at the same pace, she's not likely to catch up to him. He doesn't need to use pure speed to dodge all her attacks when he has justu to help stall. 

Thats the point you seem to not get. It doesn't matter whether he's not much faster then her or whether she can break out of his jutsu or whether he will or won't be a threat if he's far away. I said if Orochi doesn't want to get hit he has ways of keeping his distance. The whole point is that he has jutsu to distract her for a few second to create distance if he wants to, nothing more, nothing less. 




> He would.
> 
> _NINJUTSU; Katsuyu Daibunretsu (Katsuyu's Grand Division of the Slugs*)
> User: Katsuyu
> ...




Unless you have some proof that Katsuyu's stamina on her own is better then Manda then its an top up.



> Add in the fact that Tsunade can take down Manda with her strength, but Orochimaru won't have an easy time killing Katsuyu, and Manda is going down first for sure.



Doesn't matter. We were talking about Katsuyu herself vs Manda himself back in part one, not now.




FlamingRain said:


> @ Bonly, I'm not trolling.
> 
> What does Obito have to do with Koto?



Koto? Lol I think you go lost for a second. I was pointed Obito and Danzo because they both have some Hashi DNA inside of them and I am using them to point out the increase in stamina, which is why I think it for Orochi to get quite a boost.


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## ReverseZero12 (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't even know if I should take this thread seriously or not. 
But the answer is obvious. Orochimaru HANDS DOWN.


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## Kanki (Jun 20, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Back in Part I Tsunade does not bother to store much chakra in her seal ether. In Part II both up their game. Tsunade starts storing more chakra in her seal and Orochi begins to look for away to get his Tensei back, even-though there isn't a predestined battle. Though perhaps a better thing for me to have said is that were pitting the feats of an armless Orochimaru against a Tsunade whose at the top of her game, I.E. the max amount of chakra we've seen in her seal.



Part 1 Tsunade was effectively retired though. Throughout all of part 2 she has extreme levels of chakra stored up in her seal whilst there's nothing to suggest Orochimaru would constantly have ET prepared. 



> This does not account for the rarity of these encounters. Most encounters happen with both parties knowing they are going into combat soon. The other scenario's are much more rare in the manga.
> 
> For example in the Wave Arc we did have a few ambushes, but in the final battle both sides knew they were going to face their enemy at some point. The entire Chuunin exams most characters knew that their enemies were lurking around and waiting to make their move; ether because they were in matches or because they caught on to Orochi being behind the scenes. In the Sannin arc, all members knew that Tsunade was making a deal with Orochi, that could result in battle. In the rescue Sasuke arc, the Sound 4 knew they were invading enemy territory and could fight, as did the members of rescue Sasuke team when they chased after Sasuke.
> 
> ...



An ambush can work either way so it's 50-50 as to whether it's Tsunade or Orochimaru attempting it. Obviously if Tsunade is planning the ambush, it's unlikely E/T will be prepped. You're also forgetting that to perform Edo Tensei you need to gather sacrifices + DNA of the E/T, which takes time. In many of the cases you mentioned, not enough time was given. Could Pain go and find the DNA of character X and perform the E/T whilst Jiraiya was fighting Konan? Could Itachi do it whilst Sasuke was chasing him? 

Also it goes without saying that in the manga,most fights would involve an ambush simply because everything is plot driven. Every fight has to have a purpose - either a rescue attempt, a delaying tactic, a revenge mission etc.. 

There's no back-story to this fight, or at least the OP hasn't given us one, so there's no reason to assume this is an ambush (which only effects ET if Oro is doing it)  or an arranged fight. It's probable that in the Naruto world situations like this happen all the time.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> You're ignoring manga canon. They are Kage level, Kishimoto made this clear.
> Ma and Pa are more impressive feat-wise only when you ignore power inflation. You can't compare Part II feats that are power-inflated to Part I feats.


I'm not ignoring Manga cannon i'm just acknowledging that a retecon has occurred. Kishimoto retecon'd what it means to be Hokage level in Part II and the Edos were not on that level. That's the whole reason why Kishimoto brings up the fact that the Edos were weakened. 

Shit has been retecon'd from part I I mean it's the same thing as Ebisu saying that only a Sannin could beat a Sannin, when we know that is not even close to true. 

On top of that the Anbu never said to my knowledge that the Edos were Hokage level, he just said "this is a Hokage level battle", which even by Part II standards I can understand, considering you have Orochimaru using Techs like Edo Tensei and Hiruzen using techs like Shikka Fuujin, but that speaks towards the entire battle, not individuals. 

It's just like Ma or PA may not individually be Hokage level, but I'm pretty sure people would agree that SM J-man vs Pain was a Hokage level battle.



> It was implied that Orochimaru had an imperfect form of Sage Mode - just as Jiraiya's form is also imperfect. Really the only thing that puts SM Jiraiya above Orochimaru are feats, which Jiraiya has much more of in Part II.


I don't see this implication anywhere, instead I see the exact opposite implication that he could not use a SM anywhere near J-man's and he's never displayed one so yeah....




> Really the only thing that puts SM Jiraiya above Orochimaru are feats, which Jiraiya has much more of in Part II.
> 
> I think Jiraiya would struggle immensely to put down Yamata no Orochi, but I don't want to argue on it too much since this isn't a Jiraiya vs Orochimaru thread.


The thing is Orochimaru has had more opportunities in the manga than J-man to gain feats, yet he is still coming off inferior. So I don't think the argument that Orochimaru just needs more feats works that well in this comparison. It's not like were comparing Mu for instance to J-man, where one could say Mu has deficiency of feats due to not having as much panel time as J-man, because again Orochi has had more panel time.



> I don't see how current Orochimaru is that much stronger than he was back in Part 1. The main reason he is so much stronger now than he was at the beginning of Part II is because he has his arms and jutsu back.


Of course you don't because your not accepting that a Retcon has occured. Again Part I Edo Hokage were greatly weakened (Stated by Tobirama) and therefore were no where close to Hokage leve. Now in Part II Orochi has further mastered Edo Tensei and gained Hashi's DNA allowing him to summon back and control at least Tobirama & Hiruzen when they are at close to full power. Meaning it's only now that Orochimaru has truly gained Hokage level summons with ET.

And that is the big change in Orochimaru's power. Your not noticing it because you think the Edo's were Hokage level in Part I, but that's not the case.

Not to mention we don't know what else Orochi can do with his new Senju Hashi DNA.




> the Edo Hokages would have been around Mei or Gaara's leve


First off I don't know how you get Gaara and Mei's level out of Hokage level. The weakest Hokage we've seen in combat is Tsunade, but even she is above Gaara & Mei in combat power (unless Gaara is in a desert), & she is also foremost a support Ninja, so overall her level is much higher than the your average Kage like Mei and Gaara. So Tsunade level would be the minimum of someone who is Hokage level. So you can't say oh Hiruzen being able to beat 2 Mei level ninja with his hype could make sense. No you have to assume that author wants us to believe that Old Hiruzen would be able to beat at least 2 Tsunade level ninja who have Edo Buffs and still be able to greatly wound Orochimaru after that.

I really do not think Kishimoto given Old Hiruzen's limitations with chakra (he can only create 2 KB and it hurts his life span) can defeat these level of opponents. It would be one thing if this was Prime Hiruzen or even an Edo Hiruzen who doesn't have this limitation of stamina, but an Old Hiruzen.



Matto-sama said:


> The Sannin have always been portrayed as relative equals though. The statements about them don't give reason to believe there is a power heirarchy.
> 
> "Even though you are one of those 3 ninjas" [1]
> 
> ...


So once again I ask do you think Tsunade can beat Orochimaru, when he can summon close to full power undead Hokage. And if Tsunade were to demonstrate that power how on gods green earth would J-man defeat that level of strength, when he couldn't even defeat Pain, who is unquestionably inferior to the power of multiple undead Hokage. 

Yes they are referred to as the Sannin a-lot, but none of that cites the them as equals, just like the Kages aren't all equal in strength. We've seen people say your one of the Kages or something along those lines, many times, but that doesn't mean that this person is equal to someone like Hashirama. Sannin merely represents a standard, because all 3 were strong. So saying she's a Sannin just means she's strong, not that they all remained equal throughout the manga.

As for the idea of the deadlock of summons tipping things in one Sannin's favor enough for him/her to win I doubt it. If Tsunade manages to defeat Orochimaru's Manda, she'd still be up against Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi and near full power Edo Hokage, both of which are superior to Manda. Like wise if someone beat Bunta they'd still be up against SM J-man, which is far superior to Butna. I could understand your premise if the Sannin's strongest weapon and form of combat was their combo play with their Boss Summon, but that is not the case.

Thee only time we see the deadlock play out is when the Sannin are restricted due to handicaps to fighting with Just their Boss summons.

As for the Sasuke, Naruto, Sakura business. You can sit here and make excuses saying they have styles outside of their Boss Summons all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they were called the new Sannin. So if Kishi wants this idea to extent beyond the summons even by the end of the manga Sakura would neeed to be capable of beating Sasuke and Sasuke would always beat Naruto, to which I say good luck with that. 

Again the idea that the Sannin must remain always equivalent was destroyed the moment that Kishi had Orochimaru obtain power that far excels the other Sannin.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> SM Jiraiya is not > Oro w/ Part 1 Edo Tensei. If Oro actually fights alongside them, there is no way for Jiraiya to win in most scenarios. Even Part 1 Hashirama and Tobirama were "Hokage level." Because of power inflation their feats don't seem like it, but through portrayal I can't see Jiraiya clearing 2 immortal Kage level ninja and Orochimaru, who is already portrayed as having the match-up advantage over him, at the same time.



Tobirama admitted that he was brought back much weaker in Part I than he is currently.



Bonly said:


> When it comes to boss Summoning Katsuyu won't be as big of a help as it would be for Tsunade. When have seen Manda dodged Katsuyu's  Zesshi Nensan at close range followed by wrapping her up and Katsuyu being saved by the chief toads attack and lastly dividing.



Which would have killed Manda had he swallowed Katsuyu. Thousands of acid blasts inside his throat and stomach would have totally fucked him up. Furthermore, that was Tsunade's _first time fighting_ Orochimaru, Katsuyu had never had first hand experience of having to defend against Manda's speed before. Now that she has knowledge, she can just split up into a plethora of clones that can keep Orochimaru busy while Tsunade pounds the crap out of Manda. Either that, or Katsuyu calls a stalemate with Manda while Tsunade and Orochimaru duke it out. The only difference is, Tsunade's summon can still support her against Orochimaru since she can be in so many different places at once.



> The most Katsuyu can do is cover Tsunade and protect her



Or latch onto her shoulder and heal her, or (assuming Manda has been defeated),  around Orochimaru.



> but if Katsuyu does that then Tsunade can't go on offense due to her entire body being covered. Other then that her smaller slugs will likely just get ran over by Manda.



Which of course would fail to kill them or do any damage of significance.



> With Manda to take care of Katsuyu and generic large fodder



Manda cannot ' take care ' of Katsuyu. They stalemate at best.



> as well as 1,000 snakes with swords popping out of their mouths should provide a good amount of time of distraction for Orochi to try and get a clean shot in until Tsunade takes out and deals with the snakes upon which he might or might not actually land the clean hit.



Tsunade can tackle through those snakes or split them in half with a ground fissure. I don't really see what Orochimaru could do in that short time frame - fire his giant kusanagi? Launch more snakes? Neither method could stop her as long as she can evade, tank damage or rely on Katsuyu divisions.



> With Orochi's true form of a huge white snake made of a bunch of smaller snakes, its pretty much gonna screw Tsunade up here. Orochi was slashed up into 3 pieces and was still fine to move and talk as well as Orochi having a paralyzing poison. With such this means that even if Tsunade lands a blow on Orochi and do something simliar to this, Orochi should still be fine and Tsunade would likely feel the effects and go down giving Orochi an easy shot to finish her.
> 
> Nothing else in Orochi's usable arsenal is gonna put her down as it consist of snakes,sword slashes, and Rashomon gates. Tsunade on the other hand has nothing in her arsenal to put Orochi down bar a direct hit and even then it might or might not kill him due to being made out of snakes as well as him now having a Zetsu body along with his oral rebirth and others.



It's important to recognise that blunt force trauma is different to being cut up into various pieces, though. Orochimaru was split in half by KN4 and easily reattached his body, yet one of Tsunade's blows outright knocked him out. Of course I don't for a second doubt that Orochimaru was not in a perfect condition when fighting Tsunade, but he _was still weakened_ against KN4. Furthermore, his stamina against Tsunade was far from bad even with his handicap. Where a rusty Tsunade was _losing her breath_ from chasing Oro and Kabuto, Orochimaru didn't seem tired at all. Orochimaru had already _travelled a fair distance_ to even reach Tsunade at that point, and had used a fair amount of chakra to _conjure up a giant snake_. He then conjured up an even _greater summon_ afterwards, before lastly summoning Manda (which we know consumes _significant amounts of chakra_). He had been using his _body_ _alteration_ and _kenjutsu_ repeatedly as well, and up until his second match-ending scuffle with Tsunade he showed _no signs of exhaustion_ at all. Tsunade's blow inflicted enough damage to force him into such extensive snake regen that his reserves appeared almost fully depleted.

As for that paralysing poison, if Orochimaru's poison functions by degenerating cells, then it is countered by Byakugou that speedily regenerates them. Though it is unknown if that is how Oro's poison functions, so that's an issue up in the air. At any rate, Tsunade can locate and remove poisons very quickly from her body with the Saikan Chūshutsu, she also has an infinite number of Katsuyu clones to protect her even when she's not able. Though Tsunade's pain/damage resistance is incredible, so I am skeptical to believe a paralysis poison would immobilise her in a hurry.



> Other wise it becomes who can outlast who upon which has me favoring Orochi more times then not. A zetsu body is able to let someone live without food or drinks and with the Zetsu body being pure Hashi DNA this means Orochi who already had quite a bit of chakra+stamina, gains quite a bit more. Tsunade using Byakugo is constantly wastign chakra and killing herself in the long run, she's more likely to run out of fuel and energy before Orochi. And with Orochi skillset he can easily hide/get away from Tsunade and outlast her.



Zetsu clones are only a small fraction of Hashirama's power. Such a small fraction, in fact, that they are all fodder. I do not imagine they have large amounts of chakra. It is also unknown if Orochimaru even absorbs the chakra of his victims when he transfers bodies, so we can only speculate there. Also Part II Tsunade has more stamina than Orochimaru does - her base reserves are huge, and with high chakra control the amount she needs is reduced significantly. Now Orochimaru's reserves definitely compete with Tsunade's base reserves, but her Yin seal's storage mean she ultimately dwarfs him in longevity. I should add that Tsunade won't be using regeneration repeatedly in this match, Orochimaru isn't a speedster who can blitz her, nor does he have very many attacks that she cannot evade/bat away. So she doesn't suffer much of a risk of exhausting herself from chakra consumption here, imo.​​


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Part 1 Tsunade was effectively retired though. Throughout all of part 2 she has extreme levels of chakra stored up in her seal


Orochimaru was also effectively retired as he hid in his sound village for years  w/o fighting anyone and only working on his experiments. So if not seeing any combat for awhile means someone doesn't prep, that extends to Orochimaru as well.



> whilst there's nothing to suggest Orochimaru would constantly have ET prepared.


Orochimaru's entire goal after losing his arms was to re-obtain them and regain his lost Tensei. So I think that does suggest that Orochimaru does like to have Edo Tensei prepped.



> An ambush can work either way so it's 50-50 as to whether it's Tsunade or Orochimaru attempting it. Obviously if Tsunade is planning the ambush, it's unlikely E/T will be prepped.


No an Ambush is not 50/50 chances, it depends on the cunning of the Ninja. Orochimaru was always moving his location and was difficult for even J-man to track. The likelihood of Tsunade ambushing Orochimaru is extremely low. While on the other hand we have seen Orochimaru infiltrate Konoha before and Orochimaru could have ambushed her this chapter.

Chances are Orochimaru would be doing the ambushing, if anyone does. But I'm not even getting into that, i'm just saying chances are both would be prepped.



> ou're also forgetting that to perform Edo Tensei you need to gather sacrifices + DNA of the E/T, which takes time. In many of the cases you mentioned, not enough time was given. Could Pain go and find the DNA of character X and perform the E/T whilst Jiraiya was fighting Konan? Could Itachi do it whilst Sasuke was chasing him?


Orochimaru already had the DNA of the Hokages and has would be sacrifices around him most of the time. So yes if Orochimaru were in these scenarios he most likely could have prepped Edo Tensei.

Also from what we've seen it's not like Orochimaru has to perform the ritual every time, he just needs to perform it once and than he's done. So for example if he had his arms in Part II, he probably would have prepped Edo Tensei for facing Sasori on the heaven and earth bridge. After that he would have had those Tensei for the rest of Part II.

While i'm sure there are going to be times when Orochimaru will not have the ability to prep Edo Tensei, there are times where Tsunade clearly has not had a chance to store much chakra in her seal. Like if she was forced to fight after the Sannin duel in Part I or after the Pain invasion in Part II. Heck even in the war it seems like her seal does not have as much chakra in it as it did during the Pain invasion.



> Also it goes without saying that in the manga,most fights would involve an ambush simply because everything is plot driven. Every fight has to have a purpose - either a rescue attempt, a delaying tactic, a revenge mission etc..


I just went through all the fights in the manga and showed you that 90% of the time both parties know they are going into combat. 



> There's no back-story to this fight, or at least the OP hasn't given us one, so there's no reason to assume this is an ambush (which only effects ET if Oro is doing it) or an arranged fight. It's probable that in the Naruto world situations like this happen all the time.


We have yet to see anything other than Ambushes or scenario's where both parties know they are going into combat, again the latter of which makes up a good 90% of battles in the manga, so even Ambushes are not all that common.

The OP doesn't give a back story, but that's the problem here, we need more info to determine how much time Tsunade had to store chakra before this battle in her seal and likewise how much time Orochimaru had for his own prep.

Just to me it would seem pretty unfair if we give Tsunade 2.5 - 3 years to prepare a technique and we don't even give Orochimaru the benefit of his Part I Edo Tensei level of prep. I mean i'm not even asking for Orochi to get 2.5-3 years to prep a single tech, I mean if that were the case Tsunade would be fucked as we saw what Orochimaru prepped in 2.5-3 years and that was the resurrection of the undead Hokage from the Shinigami stomach.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 20, 2013)

Orochimaru had to learn about the Uzumaki temple, the Death God, and then track them both down. Acquiring that knowledge took years, but knowledge is permanent, it requires preparation once and then its stuck forever. As such, I don't think Part II Orochimaru's Edo Tensei requires extensive prep, he already has the Hokage's DNA on his person so its really only a matter of hunting the temple down, which takes what, all of a few hours? Whereas if Tsunade only has a few hours of prep her chakra storage would be very minimal. And obviously, she cannot compete with four Hokage.

On the other hand, Part II Orochimaru with his Part I Edo Tensei _would_ require extensive preparation because Orochimaru had to go out and acquire DNA from Hashirama and Tobirama, as well as form the tags that he did not normally use. Give Tsunade that kind of preparation and she can have enough chakra stored that she can still regenerate/use huge amounts of chakra to the same extent; if not to a greater extent, than she did against Madara. 

Tsunade > Orochimaru without his Part II Edo Tensei. However, this should generally be accepted as a main part of his power, given how little preparation it requires, and how Orochimaru carries the Hokage's DNA at all times, apparently.​​


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## Kanki (Jun 20, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru was also effectively retired as he hid in his sound village for years  w/o fighting anyone and only working on his experiments. So if not seeing any combat for awhile means someone doesn't prep, that extends to Orochimaru as well.



It's likely he did fight characters, as he was able to capture different ninja. Of course it's possible other characters did that for him, but we've yet to see anyone from the Sound aside from Kabuto/Oro that could capture Suigetsu for example. Furthermore he was constantly conducting experiments to make himself stronger + gained at least 1 new body.



> Orochimaru's entire goal after losing his arms was to re-obtain them and regain his lost Tensei. So I think that does suggest that Orochimaru does like to have Edo Tensei prepped.



Has that ever been said? It makes sense that a shinobi would want to regain the use of their arms regardless of Edo Tensei.



> No an Ambush is not 50/50 chances, it depends on the cunning of the Ninja. Orochimaru was always moving his location and was difficult for even J-man to track. The likelihood of Tsunade ambushing Orochimaru is extremely low. While on the other hand we have seen Orochimaru infiltrate Konoha before and Orochimaru could have ambushed her this chapter.
> 
> Chances are Orochimaru would be doing the ambushing, if anyone does. But I'm not even getting into that, i'm just saying chances are both would be prepped.


 
Well if we're to go right into this manga...Orochimaru would struggle to ambush Tsunade too. He doesn't have a powerful village to aid him anymore. An ambush doesn't depend on cunning, sure it helps, but it dependsmore  on motive. Kakuzu is a cunning ninja, yet he and Hidan were ambushed by Team Asuma. Sasori is a cunning ninja, yet he was effectively ambushed by Chiyo and Sakura. . Team Yamato attempted to ambush Orochimaru - yet the latter is clearly more cunning.

Plot determines who ambushes who.



> Orochimaru already had the DNA of the Hokages and has would be sacrifices around him most of the time. So yes if Orochimaru were in these scenarios he most likely could have prepped Edo Tensei.



Why would Oro have the sacrifices around him? Orochimaru was 'revived' with whatever 'weapons' he had before, like the DNA of the Kages for example, yet he didn't have any sacrifices.

Also having the DNA of the Hokages is only a 3rd of what's needed. He needs sacrifices whih he may or may not have when he isn't prepared for a fight, but he also needs to physically go into Konoah and release the souls of the Kages. 

There's too many ifs and buts for it to be classed as unfair when Oro doesn't have the 4 Kages by his side. Every time we've been the Edo Tensei used in the manga, it's for a short term purpose in the sense that they've been created and used shortly after. Never have we seen them 'stored' just in case they're needed.



> Also from what we've seen it's not like Orochimaru has to perform the ritual every time, he just needs to perform it once and than he's done. So for example if he had his arms in Part II, he probably would have prepped Edo Tensei for facing Sasori on the heaven and earth bridge. After that he would have had those Tensei for the rest of Part II.



Yeah...a fight where Orochimaru was the one who intended to ambush his opponent. If this scenario has Orochimaru planning out an assassination of Tsunade, then I would expect him to use ET.



> While i'm sure there are going to be times when Orochimaru will not have the ability to prep Edo Tensei, there are times where Tsunade clearly has not had a chance to store much chakra in her seal. Like if she was forced to fight after the Sannin duel in Part I or after the Pain invasion in Part II. Heck even in the war it seems like her seal does not have as much chakra in it as it did during the Pain invasion.



What's more likely though? There's a bigger chance of Orochimaru not having E/T prepped than Tsunade using up every ounce of her chakra just before she's required to fight. 




> I just went through all the fights in the manga and showed you that 90% of the time both parties know they are going into combat.



And I just told you that all those fights in the manga were driven by plot. How do you create a story where two characters just happen to meet each other every time you want a fight? Kishimoto always wants to give the readers a reason to invest - you want to see Sasuke get revenge, or the Akatsuki to be captured, or Gaara to be rescued. In the Battledome there is no 'plot no jutsu' unless said otherwise by the OP.



> We have yet to see anything other than Ambushes or scenario's where both parties know they are going into combat, again the latter of which makes up a good 90% of battles in the manga, so even Ambushes are not all that common.



Not quite true. Zabuza had no idea he'd fight Kakashi and vice versa. Same for Gai/Kisame 3. But I addressed this issue in the above paragraph.



> The OP doesn't give a back story, but that's the problem here, we need more info to determine how much time Tsunade had to store chakra before this battle in her seal and likewise how much time Orochimaru had for his own prep.



I think the difference is Tsunade only needs a few days to store up chakra and she does that *constantly*. In essence she is constantly prepped. Orochimaru is not constantly prepped - he has to go out of his way to use ET for a specific fight. That's what he did vs Sarutobi, that's what he did in this war and that's what Kabuto did as well.



> Just to me it would seem pretty unfair if we give Tsunade 2.5 - 3 years to prepare a technique and we don't even give Orochimaru the benefit of his Part I Edo Tensei level of prep. I mean i'm not even asking for Orochi to get 2.5-3 years to prep a single tech, I mean if that were the case Tsunade would be fucked as we saw what Orochimaru prepped in 2.5-3 years and that was the resurrection of the undead Hokage from the Shinigami stomach.



Why does she need 3 years? She's used an insane amount of chakra in this arc and yet only recovered from the Pain invasion a few days/weeks ago.


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## LostSelf (Jun 20, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade not only has greater natural chakra reserves but also has another large set stored up in her seal.
> 
> The only way he can outlast her is if he keeps forcing her to regenerate while taking almost no hits himself. I don't see this happening.
> 
> ...



I must've seen a bad translation. Anyway Orochimaru's Edo Tensei has been improved a lot with and Tobirama said that the only reason he could restrain him was because he was not at full power and that now, he was brought back almost at full power.

If they were revived in Part 1 much weaker as to not even opose to Edo Tensei's control even knowing how the jutsu works then we hve a clear indication how much weaker they were revived with their part 1 showings. It's not like they had all the power they have now and power inflation just powered them up to fit the story. They were just weaker that time.

without food or drinks

Part 1 Hiruzen's feats is what we have. SM Jiraiya would easily beat part 1 Hiruzen. Weakened versions of Tobirama and Hashirama to that extent like in part one would not be a problem for SM Jiraiya. And considering that at the time he was Hokage Onoki existed (Unless Kishi invented them after), he was not the strongest kage.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> It's likely he did fight characters, as he was able to capture different ninja. Of course it's possible other characters did that for him, but we've yet to see anyone from the Sound aside from Kabuto/Oro that could capture Suigetsu for example. Furthermore he was constantly conducting experiments to make himself stronger + gained at least 1 new body.



Suigetsu could have been captured by the Sound 5, especially if Kimi was healthier. Orochi also had an army of Sound Ninja that could capture targets or assist in capturing targets. 

Orochimaru had his prospective bodies fight an endurance match against other prospective bodies, so he could just take their bodies through only using Fuushi Tensei. So there was really no conflict were aware of there.



> Has that ever been said? It makes sense that a shinobi would want to regain the use of their arms regardless of Edo Tensei.


We know the Hokages were mentioned in the scroll, because that's how Sasuke knew who "them" were and the whole reason he wanted to release Orochimaru so he could talk to "them"



> Well if we're to go right into this manga...Orochimaru would struggle to ambush Tsunade too. He doesn't have a powerful village to aid him anymore. An ambush doesn't depend on cunning, sure it helps, but it dependsmore on motive. Kakuzu is a cunning ninja, yet he and Hidan were ambushed by Team Asuma. Sasori is a cunning ninja, yet he was effectively ambushed by Chiyo and Sakura. . Team Yamato attempted to ambush Orochimaru - yet the latter is clearly more cunning.
> 
> Plot determines who ambushes who.


But i'm not even arguing Orochimaru would ambush Tsunade, i'm just arguing that in most scenario's someone would know that they are going to see combat before entering combat. In all the instances you listed these characters were aware they were going to see combat.



> Why would Oro have the sacrifices around him? Orochimaru was 'revived' with whatever 'weapons' he had before, like the DNA of the Kages for example, yet he didn't have any sacrifices.
> 
> Also having the DNA of the Hokages is only a 3rd of what's needed. He needs sacrifices whih he may or may not have when he isn't prepared for a fight, but he also needs to physically go into Konoah and release the souls of the Kages.
> 
> There's too many ifs and buts for it to be classed as unfair when Oro doesn't have the 4 Kages by his side. Every time we've been the Edo Tensei used in the manga, it's for a short term purpose in the sense that they've been created and used shortly after. Never have we seen them 'stored' just in case they're needed.


I though we were talking about Orochimaru's Part I Edo Tensei, not Part II Edo Tensei where he already had the materials and would just need sacrifices, which usually he'd have since his bases were filled with fodder to sacrifice. If were talking Part II of course it would take more time for him to reclaim his arms and all that jaz, but give him 3 years like Tsunade had to store chakra in her seal and i'm pretty sure he could pull it off. 



> Yeah...a fight where Orochimaru was the one who intended to ambush his opponent. If this scenario has Orochimaru planning out an assassination of Tsunade, then I would expect him to use ET.


or in Any fight that Orochimaru was in currently he'd be able to summon out the Hokages, since the prep is done. Just like any fight after the Hiruzen battle he'd be able to summon out the weakened Hokage, if not for having his arms and Tensei sealed by Hiruzen, since the prep would have already been done.

So Orochimaru only needs to prep once and than he has that power until someone disposes of those Tensei. Therefore Orochimaru at his best is when he has already prepped Tensei, just like Tsunade at her best is when she's prepped a considerable amount of chakra in her Byakugo Seal.



> What's more likely though? There's a bigger chance of Orochimaru not having E/T prepped than Tsunade using up every ounce of her chakra just before she's required to fight.


Here's my view. It's more likely that Tsunade will have the small amount of chakra stored in her seal she displayed in Part I prepped than Orochimaru will have Edo Tensei prepped. I find it equally likely that she will have the amount of chakra stored in her seal displayed in the Madara battle as Orochimaru would have Edo Tensei prepped.

However the 2.5 to 3 years worth of chakra stored in seal prepped, I find less likely than Orochimaru having Edo Tensei prepped. Because while it might take  Orochimaru weeks to at most a month to prep some Tensei, like it would take Tsunade probably a similar amount of time to gather the amount of chakra she displayed in the Madara battle in her Byakugo seal.

However 3 years storing chakra in Byakugo seal i think is much less likely than Orochimaru having Edo Tensei prepped, because it doesn't take that long to find some reasonably good Edos and once you've prepped them you have them for good. Meanwhile it takes Tsunade 3 years w/o having to use any chakra from the seal to reach that point and once she uses it up it takes her another 3 years. 3 years is a long time.



> And I just told you that all those fights in the manga were driven by plot. How do you create a story where two characters just happen to meet each other every time you want a fight? Kishimoto always wants to give the readers a reason to invest - you want to see Sasuke get revenge, or the Akatsuki to be captured, or Gaara to be rescued. In the Battledome there is no 'plot no jutsu' unless said otherwise by the OP.


I was just talking about how I feel the two stack up in the manga, because the OP has given no stipulations on how much chakra Tsunade has in her Yin-seal. Also it seemed like the OP was asking how the Sannin stack up, which is a very manga centric question.



> Not quite true. Zabuza had no idea he'd fight Kakashi and vice versa. Same for Gai/Kisame 3. But I addressed this issue in the above paragraph.


Your point to sparse examples, while I have shown vastly more examples.



> I think the difference is Tsunade only needs a few days to store up chakra and she does that constantly. In essence she is constantly prepped. Orochimaru is not constantly prepped - he has to go out of his way to use ET for a specific fight. That's what he did vs Sarutobi, that's what he did in this war and that's what Kabuto did as well.


Again this comes down to what Tsunade are we talking about here. If were talking about a Tsunade who has only stored chakra in her seal for a few days, than sure that's more likely than Orochimaru having Edo Tensei prepped. However what I have been talking about is Tsunade at her best, I.E. with three years of stored chakra like Sakura has, which again to me is less likely than Orochimaru having Edo Tensei prepped.



> Why does she need 3 years? She's used an insane amount of chakra in this arc and yet only recovered from the Pain invasion a few days/weeks ago.


The amount of chakra she needs is dependent on what opponent she is up against and how long she'd need to maintain Byakugo. Yes she recovered some chakra after the Pain arc, but it was nowhere near the amount of chakra she demonstrated within the Pain arc (Healing an entire village throughout the Pain invasion & saving everyone from Chou Shinra Tensei). 

We've never seen Tsunade fight with 3 years of chakra stored, so we'll probably have to get feats via Sakura in that regard as to what 3 yeas worth of chakra can do for you. But all I was saying was the OP needs to clarify how much chakra is in the seal and how long Byakugo would last, before i'm able to call a decisive winner of this match. What I was also saying is if the OP gave Tsunade 3 years or any insane amount of chakra in her seal, that required years to store, that it seems un-fair to me that we aren't allowing Orochimaru to have prep for Edo Tensei than, considering we're talking it requires years worth of prep on Tsunade's part to store that much chakra in her seal.

Do you get what i'm saying.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> Bloody hell, should have said so earlier.
> But why are you comparing B's velocity to A's, when I compared B's _action_ (or attack) to KN4's? _That's the difference_. Pay attention.



Because you said "at high velocity".



> More reaching something awful, you're really doing mental gymnastics to account for something that is otherwise stated clearly. They attack and seal the clone, Madara chides them for it and amuses himself over it. That's all there is to it, no clone swapping-in-plain-sight bullshit while everybody was watching. The regeneration=clone swap excuse is a flimsy interpretation at best, completely unlikely, and unworthy of an actual argument.



Stated clearly? Madara said he used a clone, and we see that, he does not say that they _hit_ a clone.

Clones do not regenerate, Madara did. Clones turn back into puppets when they get killed, Madara didn't. I don't have to reach to believe that was the real Madara. It's hardly a flimsy interpretation, since neither before nor after this incident have Mokubunshin ever displayed regeneration or failed to turn back into a puppet.

Forgetting that sand swirling around someone would block everyone's sight for a moment anyway, it wouldn't be the first time a clone swap has occurred in plain sight - Gaara and Onoki did it right in front of Nidaime Mizukage after the clam was demolished, Kakashi did it right in front of Deva and Asura with magic eyes after pausing himself with the manriki chain while he was being Bansho Tenin'd, etc.

And no, Madara was not _amused_ about using that clone. That much we can see in his response to Tsunade's question about him being forced.



> _The gap_ is non-comparable, and you can't show me anything that puts her of KN4's level .
> Plus, here's A punching a rockface, he can't compare either, it's not even close, basically nobody comes close, except, ironically, Sakura, who surpasses KN4's display, and...I _think_, everybody else's in the whole manga thus far. Hail Sakura!



I was talking about the gap between Tsunade and Ay- which would be comparable because they both tried to smash through the same thing and got different results.

Ay that wasn't trying to kill Naruto anymore and only test his speed?

Ay and Bee have to be on the same level of strength for their Lariat to work, and we know that they were at least until the incident with Kisame. Bee did not crash into that plateau with any more velocity than Ay crashed down into Susano'o when Madara put it up.



That was prior to the collision, and what he actually destroyed went beyond that platform. The explosion was way more than enough to have gotten rid of those snakes, and he was only going off of the momentum he gained from his punch missing Sasuke since it actually changed his angle in the air, and it isn't like he can fly to speed himself up for more force so I still believe Ay's blitz strikes could do something similar whether it was a tackle or not, though I still feel he actually struck it.



> That was at the start of the fight, so she was untouched. And it seems to me all your arguments amount to are appeals to "common sense" and very badly drawn parallels instead of anything concrete.



I know it was? I'm only saying that she didn't seem to be enhancing her blows with her chakra.

And appealing to common sense is just part of how I post. I'm not a fan of the "we have to see it" kind of BD posting and I probably never will be.



> I'm not comparing susano cracking with Juubling denting, that would be pointless. I'm comparing Tsunade to Sakura ground splitting, and Sakura's is an order of magnitude more potent.



And you're comparing it when we've only seen ground splitting from an inferior form of Tsunade to the one being talked about in this thread.

We have not seen current Tsunade ground splitting, but the fact that people aren't actually sure Sakura is stronger because of what she did alone suggests to me that if there is a difference between current Sakura and current Tsunade, it is a small one.



> It's about 4 meters tall, that doesn't matter at all though, her hits wouldn't kill them, if she kicks the ground like she did they'd just be thrown into the air, then continue, she can't destroy them the way Naruto did. It doesn't matter that the "wall of snakes" is high or not, it matters that Tsunade's attack is *nothing like* Naruto's, so no, she wouldn't be able to handle it that way.



We're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic then, then.

So I'll just say she summons the slug on top of them and squashes them. If he does it again she rolls over to crush them again or divides then shoots acid. Problem solved.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which would have killed Manda had he swallowed Katsuyu. Thousands of acid blasts inside his throat and stomach would have totally fucked him up.



And that must be why the Chief toad felt the need to save Katsuyu as well as why Katsuyu mentioned something to the Chief toad afterwords. Oh wait...



> Furthermore, that was Tsunade's _first time fighting_ Orochimaru, Katsuyu had never had first hand experience of having to defend against Manda's speed before. Now that she has knowledge, she can just split up into a plethora of clones that can keep Orochimaru busy while Tsunade pounds the crap out of Manda. Either that, or Katsuyu calls a stalemate with Manda while Tsunade and Orochimaru duke it out. The only difference is, Tsunade's summon can still support her against Orochimaru since she can be in so many different places at once.



As long as Katsuyu isn't boss summon size she won't be that much of a problem.



> Or latch onto her shoulder and heal her, or (assuming Manda has been defeated),  around Orochimaru.



Wouldn't that be pointless since Katsuyu uses Tsunade's Byakugo to heal, so if Tsunade has Byakugo active what good would Katsuyu healing do? 



> Which of course would fail to kill them or do any damage of significance.



Doesn't matter, useless slug are useless.



> Manda cannot ' take care ' of Katsuyu. They stalemate at best.



Yes he can. As long as he can force her to spilt then he can handle her.



> Tsunade can tackle through those snakes or split them in half with a ground fissure.



Doesn't matter, as long as it can distract her from Orochi himself for a second+ then it will have done its job.



> I don't really see what Orochimaru could do in that short time frame - fire his giant kusanagi? Launch more snakes? Neither method could stop her as long as she can evade, tank damage or rely on Katsuyu divisions.



A clean shot to the head and its a GG. There's a chance he could land such a hit although the chances are very very low that he actually would.



> It's important to recognise that blunt force trauma is different to being cut up into various pieces, though. Orochimaru was split in half by KN4 and easily reattached his body, yet one of Tsunade's blows outright knocked him out. Of course I don't for a second doubt that Orochimaru was not in a perfect condition when fighting Tsunade, but he _was still weakened_ against KN4. Furthermore, his stamina against Tsunade was far from bad even with his handicap. Where a rusty Tsunade was _losing her breath_ from chasing Oro and Kabuto, Orochimaru didn't seem tired at all. Orochimaru had already _travelled a fair distance_ to even reach Tsunade at that point, and had used a fair amount of chakra to _conjure up a giant snake_. He then conjured up an even _greater summon_ afterwards, before lastly summoning Manda (which we know consumes _significant amounts of chakra_). He had been using his _body_ _alteration_ and _kenjutsu_ repeatedly as well, and up until his second match-ending scuffle with Tsunade he showed _no signs of exhaustion_ at all. Tsunade's blow inflicted enough damage to force him into such extensive snake regen that his reserves appeared almost fully depleted.



And before chapter 245  where exactly did Orochi show this snake regen?



> As for that paralysing poison, if Orochimaru's poison functions by degenerating cells, then it is countered by Byakugou that speedily regenerates them. Though it is unknown if that is how Oro's poison functions, so that's an issue up in the air. At any rate, Tsunade can locate and remove poisons very quickly from her body with the Saikan Chūshutsu, she also has an infinite number of Katsuyu clones to protect her even when she's not able. Though Tsunade's pain/damage resistance is incredible, so I am skeptical to believe a paralysis poison would immobilise her in a hurry.



Sasuke went down shortly affect had been felt. Tsunade can have good pain resistance but she'll be off balance for a second or two and if he's that close to her then he can take advantage of the situation.





> Zetsu clones are only a small fraction of Hashirama's power. Such a small fraction, in fact, that they are all fodder. I do not imagine they have large amounts of chakra. It is also unknown if Orochimaru even absorbs the chakra of his victims when he transfers bodies, so we can only speculate there. Also Part II Tsunade has more stamina than Orochimaru does - her base reserves are huge, and with high chakra control the amount she needs is reduced significantly. Now Orochimaru's reserves definitely compete with Tsunade's base reserves, but her Yin seal's storage mean she ultimately dwarfs him in longevity. I should add that Tsunade won't be using regeneration repeatedly in this match, Orochimaru isn't a speedster who can blitz her, nor does he have very many attacks that she cannot evade/bat away. So she doesn't suffer much of a risk of exhausting herself from chakra consumption here, imo.



Part of Zetsu himself seems to work wonders for Obito(who is made half of Zetsu) who has quite a bit of stamina even though they are fodder, I can only guess at how good Orochi is going to be with a full body of it.

Tsunade will need to keep Byakugo up the whole time, she has no reason to take it off unless she runs out of chakra/cells.


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