# Vergo vs Pica



## Amol (Feb 22, 2015)

I heard arguments about Vergo lacking aoe attacks thus making Pica bad match up for him.
Lets see how true are they.
Location : Dressrosa
*Intel : None*
Distance : 50
Mindset : To kill
Pica starts in Huge Rock Golem we saw in latest chapter.


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## Coruscation (Feb 22, 2015)

Vergo may lack the AOE of DCJ and Zoro; but he has Geppou and Soru for mobility which makes up for it. Zoro can't dodge so he has to counter every attack, Vergo can just get out of the way. With Pica's sluggish speed he'll be easy to dodge. Vergo has the tools needed to dodge attacks as he figures out how to beat Pica. Once he knows that he has to be chased down within his golem, Geppou will take care of the mobility while his Haki attacks can break through any rock necessary. The only thing he can't counter directly would be a punch or similarly massive attack but they are just too slow and telegraphed. 

The biggest issue would be that Pica's ability to escape is so high. He would be able to effectively keep Vergo away from him and Vergo would eventually, sooner or later, start to tire from giving chase, dodging attacks and smashing rock. But with Vergo's terminator-like endurance, and how the fact that he wasn't even breathing hard after fighting Smoker (after previously suffering moves from Sanji and Law) shows his stamina is massive, he gets the benefit of the doubt that he can eventually close in and deliver a conclusive beatdown. Given Pica's abysmal performance against Zoro in CQC he won't have a good time against Vergo's Soru Haki blitzes. At best he manages to escape again while Vergo keeps giving chase. It comes down to a game of attrition where Vergo's immense durability, endurance and stamina gives him the benefit of the doubt.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 22, 2015)

Issho said:


> Vergo around the same diff that Zoro was having with Pica.


**


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## King plasma (Feb 22, 2015)

Either Vergo wins after a long ass time or it ends up in a stalemate.


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## Kaiser (Feb 22, 2015)

Pica would only be seen as performing bad because he only clashed with people possessing huge AOE destructive power threatening his most formidable form(the huge golem) with Chinjao's ice continent splitting attack alongside the King's Punch(that is hyped to break fortress or KO a yonkou) or Zoro's town level 1080 Pound Cannon, all of which are capable to stop the statue in its track. For anyone lacking this amount of destructive power(hey Vergo!), they are completely unable to fight back even if they are faster and most skilled overall, so anytime such an opponent would be in range, all he can do is either fleeing away or wait for his death

The range of the golem's punches is town level. It depends on if you think Vergo can cover the equivalent of a town with his geppou ability while fighting(so in close combat) or not. On the other side, the golem can easily take advantage of his damage immunity(and it seems it was even unphased by cannon balls in the latest chapter) ignoring whatever Vergo would throw at him to strike Vergo down at the same time, giving him the offensive maneuver advantage. In this case, it's only the golem that would be at his advantage, despite Vergo's overall superiority in speed and skill


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## Quuon (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm going to hold off on answering this until I see how Zoro puts that golem down, so for now I'm going to go with a stalemate for the time being.


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2015)

Oni Take destroys  AOE =/ Destructive capability.

Oni Take Blew through Smoker's Haki Jutte, Smoker's overall durability, and a couple inches of steel from the air pressure via Oni Take.

Smoker's overall durability is atleast small town level based on Baby 5 and buffalo surviving Franky's General Coup. So add to that the durability of smoker's Hakified Jutte (which should be able to protect from a good range of high tier attacks), and the strength needed to dent steel from a few yards away based on air pressure from a blunt attack, and you got all the force now concentrating on Pica's golem.

And that was without his FBH enhancements.


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## Luke (Feb 22, 2015)

What Issho said.


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 22, 2015)

Pica extreme to high difficulty.



One town level punch cripples him another kills him.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 22, 2015)

Not sure who would win but either way they both give Zoro about low diff


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## Suit (Feb 22, 2015)

Once Vergo catches the real body, he fodder-stomps. None of Pica's attacks will do shit in the meantime.


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## Quuon (Feb 22, 2015)

It's crazy just how much of an impression Vergo left in comparison to the other seats.

We didn't even get to see him fight in his hulk mode.


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## Bohemian Knight (Feb 22, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Once Vergo catches the real body, he fodder-stomps. None of Pica's attacks will do shit in the meantime.



Fodder-stomps? No. Zoro connected with HD Cannon and Pica is still kicking. Does Vergo still win with unquestionable doubt once he works his way inside and finds the body? Yes.


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## ShadoLord (Feb 22, 2015)

I would say that Vergo wins, but he certainly does lack the AoE to take down Pica's golem.

Pica probably wins this.


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## Suit (Feb 22, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Fodder-stomps? No. Zoro connected with HD Cannon and Pica is still kicking. Does Vergo still win with unquestionable doubt once he works his way inside and finds the body? Yes.



I don't think that

1) That attack was nearly one of Zoro's best.
2) That was even Pica's real body.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 22, 2015)




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## Intus Legere (Feb 22, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Oni Take destroys  AOE =/ Destructive capability.



Do you honestly see Oni Take destroying a mountain? Or a Red Hawk? Or one of Jinbe's tile punches?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 22, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Do you honestly see Oni Take destroying a mountain? Or a Red Hawk? Or one of Jinbe's tile punches?



Logically they should. 

In-verse oda would probably not have them cause such destruction.

I call it the DBZ effect. Powerful attacks that barley do any environmental damage is common in manga.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 22, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Logically they should.
> 
> In-verse oda would probably not have them cause such destruction.
> 
> I call it the DBZ effect. Powerful attacks that barley do any environmental damage is common in manga.



I see Vergo punching a fist-sized hole all the way through the mountain. But that wouldn't hit Pika.

It would be like stabbing a large ham with a needle. Sure you can penetrate...but it doesnt destroy the ham.

Vergo simply doesnt have what it takes to hurt Pica

in any case a match between Vergo and Pika is like counting pennies...they are both irrelevant compared to any competent fighter like Zoro


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Do you honestly see Oni Take destroying a mountain? Or a Red Hawk? Or one of Jinbe's tile punches?



No. But they are easily town level with their upper end attacks. The energy is just much more concentrated and localized. You let your impression of a feat, and it's aesthetics determine how you view it on a powerscale which is pretty flawed. Do you think Pre sKip Luffy Gatling causes more damage than Oni Take from Vergo? You think Sanji's pre skip DJ which deflected an Oars Gomu Bazooka, would cause more damage than Oni Take? 

Do you see Buffalo or Baby 5 Taking a direct 5, 000 Punch? or Red Hawk?

If getting hit by that staff was strong enough to solo Smoker through his Haki defense, and then cause air to clap and dent steel, then he is going to wrecking large portions of Pica's golems. 

Name attacks you think it would take from Luffy to break through Smoker's Haki Jutte, solo him, and do all that with a ridiculous amount of force to spare (since it caused the air to dent steel behind them.). Then ask yourself what that same attack would do to Pica's golem.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 22, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Yes. Do you think Pre sKip Luffy Gatling causes more damage than Oni Take from Vergo? You think Sanji's pre skip DJ which deflected an Oars Gomu Bazooka, would cause more damage than Oni Take?
> 
> If getting hit by that staff was strong enough to solo Smoker through his Haki defense, and then cause air to clap and dent steel, then he is going to wrecking large portions of Pica's golems.
> 
> Name attacks you think it would take from Luffy to break through Smoker's Haki Jutte, solo him, and do all that with a ridiculous amount of force to spare (since it caused the air to dent steel behind them.). Then ask yourself what that same attack would do to Pica's golem.



that seastone stick was East Blue tier

its Smoker's fault that he didn't upgrade his gear and is still using level 1 noob stick

he should have realized this was the new world, and upgraded to some of that NW wood that Scarlet's grave was made out of 

maybe that's what Vergo's stick is made from


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> that seastone stick was East Blue tier
> 
> its Smoker's fault that he didn't upgrade his gear and is still using level 1 noob stick
> 
> ...



It doesn't even matter. 
A.) Sea stone Jutte are durable to begin with.

B.) When something is clad in Haki it's original durability matters little, hence why Vergo told Smoker with his COA he could beat his ass even with a bamboo stick.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 22, 2015)

im confident that Vergo's haki wasnt that great, and relied on his stick made out of NW wood


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> im confident that Vergo's haki wasnt that great, and relied on his stick made out of NW wood



I'm confident Vergo's haki is better than Zoro and Luffy's and he'd have no problem using that piece of wood to clash with Shuisui and Wado. Which speaks volumes about his ability. Vergo can literally pick up a plunger stick and clash with Zoro


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## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2015)

The scenes below illustrates White's point about how DC can translate to AOE:




If Luffy landed those hits on someone like Smoker they wouldn't cause any AOE damage at all as the force would just be absorbed by Smoker's body. But you can see how much destruction the same amount of force was able to cause when applied to the environment (conveniently made of rock). Although it's small time compared to Pica's Golem these attacks are also small time compared to Oni Take. Properly delivered Haki hits from Vergo should as such be able to send fairly powerful shattering ripples throughout Pica's golem body even if they don't have AOE by default.


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## Canute87 (Feb 23, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> *im confident that Vergo's haki wasnt that great,* and relied on his stick made out of NW wood



Really? **


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## Canute87 (Feb 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> It doesn't even matter.
> A.)* Sea stone Jutte are durable to begin with.*
> 
> B.) When something is clad in Haki it's original durability matters little, hence why Vergo told Smoker with his COA he could beat his ass even with a bamboo stick.



How do you know that?


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## Freechoice (Feb 23, 2015)

Vergo high diff, I guess?

We don't know the extent of Pica's power


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> How do you know that?




Bruh they are weapons. You think someone is making a Jutte using material an odd sword or mace is going to break easily? Only people we've seen break Jutte's are Hancock and Vergo so that speaks volumes on their trust ability. 

Surely you'd agree a base jutte is more durable than say i don't know.... Vergo's bamboo stick


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## Intus Legere (Feb 23, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Logically they should.
> 
> In-verse oda would probably not have them cause such destruction.
> 
> I call it the DBZ effect. Powerful attacks that barley do any environmental damage is common in manga.



I call it manga logic. Some attacks are suited to do certain kinds of damage, others are suited to do other kinds of damage. Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai can do a lot of area damage, but it can't break through certain defenses that a ?simple? Rasengan can break. A regular chidori from Sasuke at the peak of his power may be able to kill pretty much everyone in Naruto, but would fail to do actual damage a large opponent.




Dr. White said:


> No. But they are easily town level with their upper end attacks. The energy is just much more concentrated and localized. You let your impression of a feat, and it's aesthetics determine how you view it on a powerscale which is pretty flawed. Do you think Pre sKip Luffy Gatling causes more damage than Oni Take from Vergo? You think Sanji's pre skip DJ which deflected an Oars Gomu Bazooka, would cause more damage than Oni Take?
> 
> Do you see Buffalo or Baby 5 Taking a direct 5, 000 Punch? or Red Hawk?
> 
> ...



It smells like OBD debates. So, some people made calcs and determined that Luffy's kick can cause as much damage as 5 petaton... but at the same time he can't jump up and get out of a hole less than 100m deep. Zoro is able to take damage equivalent to 1000 A-bombs head on, but can't allow himself to jump up to where Pica is because falling from that height would the end of himself.

Which is stronger between Oni Take, pre-skip Gatling Gun? Oni Take by far, no debate, but these attacks work differently, and as far as the manga is concerned, they cause different effects. Do I see Baby 5 taking a 5000 Tile Punch or Red Hawk? No. And she certainly can take a pre-skip Gear 3 punch from Luffy. Again, I expect different kinds of effects from these attacks.

Do I see Oni Take breaking a large section of Pica? No, the technique isn't suited to do that.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> So, some people made calcs and determined that Luffy's kick can cause as much damage as 5 petaton... but at the same time he can't jump up and get out of a hole less than 100m deep.


So what? Does the fact that Luffy can't jump 100 Meters change his on panel feats? Does that change the way we should view certain feats and their on panel Destructive capability? No....

A karate master can break 15 concrete slabs with his elbow, more than most, but he still can't jump 20 ft... Does that mean his strength feat isn't real? I'm really not understanding this portion of your argument.




> Zoro is able to take damage equivalent to 1000 A-bombs head on, but can't allow himself to jump up to where Pica is because falling from that height would the end of himself.


I think that's a mistranslation. Hell even Law survived a 3 story fall into a metal scrap pile at 10. 

That doesn't change the fact that Zoro's durability feats are still on panel and measurable. I'm really not catching your argument here. It's like a bunch of non sequiturs based on your own subjective impression.



> Which is stronger between Oni Take, pre-skip Gatling Gun? Oni Take by far, no debate, but these attacks work differently, and as far as the manga is concerned, they cause different effects.


They have different ways of being administered no doubt, but there is also a very large difference in energy output. 




> Do I see Baby 5 taking a 5000 Tile Punch or Red Hawk? No. And she certainly can take a pre-skip Gear 3 punch from Luffy. Again, I expect different kinds of effects from these attacks.


What kinds of effects? Obviously Red hawk is going to burn and 5,000 tile punch isn't but I'm talking about energy outputs.



> Do I see Oni Take breaking a large section of Pica? No, the technique isn't suited to do that.


How is the technique not suited to do such?

What do you think is going to happen to the force of the blow when it makes contact with Pica? You don't think the energy is not going to dissipate through Pica's body until the energy is fully expended? Or does it naturally just go away after cracking Pica where he got hit at?

Go look at what Light King Punch and Drill Nail did to Pica's arm. They hit a very small spot on Pica's golem hand, and the force completely went through his arm and broke it further up. *The same thing is going to happen when Pica gets slapped with Oni Take.*


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## Kaiser (Feb 23, 2015)

There is a difference between destroying tiny part of rocks and a mountain. The rocks are so big and condensed that it requires a massive amount of energy and strength to blow all apart. Cannon balls(something that could destroy the tower of justice in Enies Lobby) had no effect on the golem in the latest chapter, zero. 

Luffy needed a armament enhanced grizzly magnum to destroy the head of the golem(otherwise the tiniest part of the golem's body). It would depend if you think Oni Take can replicate if not surpass the power of Luffy's armament enhanced grizzly magnum and personally i don't think so


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> There is a difference between destroying tiny part of rocks and a mountain. The rocks are so big and condensed that it requires a massive amount of energy and strength to blow all apart. Cannon balls(something that could destroy the tower of justice in Enies Lobby) had no effect on the golem in the latest chapter, zero.
> 
> Luffy needed a armament enhanced grizzly magnum to destroy the head of the golem(otherwise the tiniest part of the golem's body). It would depend if you think Oni Take can replicate if not surpass the power of Luffy's armament enhanced grizzly magnum and personally i don't think so



What are you talking about? Pica's golem is made of the city...The roads and houses thay make it up. That's his durability. He's just dense. Like I said pre skip fucking Luffy could bust through layers of bedrock, which is much more durable than odd city cement. Do you think pre skip gatling > Oni Take?

Luffy completely annihilated Pica's Face. Oni Take doesn't need to be that strong. Pica's face is bigger than his hand, and I already gave you the example via Chinjao. 

Vergo's haki is better than Luffy's and he is on the same strength tier. Base Vergo has the feats to completely break down Pica's golem. This really isn't even an argument.


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## Kaiser (Feb 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> What are you talking about? Pica's golem is made of the city...The roads and houses thay make it up. That's his durability. He's just dense. Like I said pre skip fucking Luffy could bust through layers of bedrock, which is much more durable than odd city cement. Do you think pre skip gatling > Oni Take?


No the golem is made of the ground. It's on the ground that are staying those cities, roads and houses. Like i've said, it was unphased by cannon balls in latest chapter. It can't be that easy to destroy



> Luffy completely annihilated Pica's Face. Oni Take doesn't need to be that strong.


The way i've seen it, he didn't:  When you look at the page carefully, you'll realise that Luffy blew apart the middle section of the face, and it's without support that the upper section fell(middle left panel). He does need something as strong if not stronger



> Pica's face is bigger than his hand, and I already gave you the example via Chinjao.


No(it's an old pic, so don't bother with the scaling):  Just the palm is clearly bigger, let alone the entire arm. Chinjao and Elizabello(yes they were together) busting it is only a testament of their fire power



> Vergo's haki is better than Luffy's and he is on the same strength tier. Base Vergo has the feats to completely break down Pica's golem. This really isn't even an argument.


Vergo's haki may be greater than Luffy's, but he doesn't have the fire power to back it up


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> No the golem is made of the ground. It's on the ground that are staying those cities, roads and houses. Like i've said, it was unphased by cannon balls in latest chapter. It can't be that easy to destroy


Yes exactly, doy you know how city's are made? It is not like natural ground, roads are paved and the area is much more hollow. When Fujitora used his gravity on Zoro he easily busted through the initial city paving, into a hollow abyss where Zoro was being held. When Fujitora brought down his first meteor whe saw the ground was completely filled and solid all the way through even towards the beach. Which makes sense considering Fuji was restraining Law on on green bit and just denting in the ground, and some of his meteors couldn't penetrate the ground either.

Anyway, fuck is a cannonball? Why is that bein compared to Vergo's firepower. Senor Pink ate a freaking rocket to the face from close range, and his face didn't bust either, you're gonna use cannonballs as your standard for durable?



> The way i've seen it, he didn't:  When you look at the page carefully, you'll realise that Luffy blew apart the middle section of the face, and it's without support that the upper section fell(middle left panel). He does need something as strong if not stronger


He completely blew through through the structure. Which is all you need to do. Pica's head was then gone for most of the fight. You don't need to microfracture every piece of the stone, just break it in good enough portions so it isn't usable.

The fingers make the hand look bigger but the area and mass of the head is greater than the palm of the hand, where Pica and King Ellizabello punched.



> Vergo's haki may be greater than Luffy's, but he doesn't have the fire power to back it up


What evidence do you have to suggest this? Vergo dented steel with air from his blow after it was diluted heavily. Without his Haki mode.

You think a light King Punch would knock out Smoker?


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## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2015)

Vergo's attacks need to stop being overrated now. He is *not* a walking King Punch/Drill Dragon dispenser by virtue of battledome calc powerscaling. Those attacks are much more destructive than Vergo's.

Smoker's kick was able to match Vergo's Haki kick evenly at one point. Manga proof. Whilst that may not be the norm exactly it shows the difference in power between them isn't VAST. Oni Take is a substantial upgrade but it doesn't elevate him from matching Smoker's kick to a whole different universe above that in power. If Smoker got hit with DCJ's Hasshouken Ougi Drill Dragon he'd freaking _die_. Not just get down on the ground briefly.

And Oni Take did *not* knock Smoker out and Smoker was *not* at 100% when he got hit. So Vergo's attack power needs to stop being overrated, pronto. Would he be able to damage the golem yes, would he be able to destroy it all, hell to the fucking no, DCJ/Elizabello/Zoro couldn't do that.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Vergo's attacks need to stop being overrated now. He is *not* a walking King Punch/Drill Dragon dispenser by virtue of battledome calc powerscaling. Those attacks are much more destructive than Vergo's.


Vergo in FBH should easily match Light King Punch in DC.

And I wasn't comparing Oni Take to them directly I was using them to illustrate that Oni Take wouldn't just crack the surface and magically dissipate. The rock surface would keep distrubting the energy until it dissipated. Like it did in the duo's combo (not exactly, just that it will travel farther than the contact area)



> Smoker's kick was able to match Vergo's Haki kick evenly at one point.


No named attacks =/ named attacks.



> Manga proof. Whilst that may not be the norm exactly it shows the difference in power between them isn't VAST.


I think Smoker could bust up certain portions of Pica's golem as well just not as much. A Haki Smoke Gatling would suffice for him to pressure and defend from Pica.



> Oni Take is a substantial upgrade but it doesn't elevate him from matching Smoker's kick to a whole different universe above that in power. If Smoker got hit with DCJ's Hasshouken Ougi Drill Dragon he'd freaking _die_. Not just get down on the ground briefly.


I didn't list the drill for a specific reason. Chinjao's haki is legendary and a piercing attack is very dangerous along with it's DC. 

Oni Take is a signfigant boost as opposed to his odd Haki blows. And by powerscaling his FBH mode much stronger than his base mode which would translate to his attack power.

I'll also remind you that Zoro got punched mid air by a mino golem Pica made and Zoro was able to completely overpower it's force and slash cleanly through it. Zoro on a seperate occasion easily sliced cleanly through some of Pica's stone by just placing his swords on the stone and running. Pica's stones are not that strong. You think Zoro could do that to steel?



> And Oni Take did *not* knock Smoker out and Smoker was *not* at 100% when he got hit.


It completely immobilized him, and caused him to collapse. He was completely incapable of defending himself with anything more than a bit of his smoke( which he used to give the heart to Law), for all intesive purposes Oni Take blew the wind out of his sail, which would have led to his defeat in a fight.



> So Vergo's attack power needs to stop being overrated, pronto. Would he be able to damage the golem yes, would he be able to destroy it all, hell to the fucking no, DCJ/Elizabello/Zoro couldn't do that.


When did I claim he could destroy it all?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 23, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> *I call it manga logic. Some attacks are suited to do certain kinds of damage, others are suited to do other kinds of damage. Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai can do a lot of area damage, but it can't break through certain defenses that a ?simple? Rasengan can break. A regular chidori from Sasuke at the peak of his power may be able to kill pretty much everyone in Naruto, but would fail to do actual damage a large opponent.
> *
> 
> 
> ...



This is all true and i agree.

But this is where the manga part comes in. Manga takes it to the extreme.  

Manga will have a dude cut someone in half with a sword swing and cause little environmental damage, even though the force needed to actually cut that man in half is beyond the force it would take to destroy a mountain. I don't need to do any Calculations to know that the force generated from such a sword slash should fuck stuff up. 

But yes Manga logic it is what it is.


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## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Vergo in FBH should easily match Light King Punch in DC.
> 
> And I wasn't comparing Oni Take to them directly I was using them to illustrate that Oni Take wouldn't just crack the surface and magically dissipate. The rock surface would keep distrubting the energy until it dissipated. Like it did in the duo's combo (not exactly, just that it will travel farther than the contact area)



Pointless to debate since his FBH form is a complete unknown. I'll leave that one.

I agree it would cause decent damage, but in the process of defending Vergo you get ahead of yourself too much and overrate his attack power. You have to start viewing Vergo more rationally.



> No named attacks =/ named attacks.



Vergo has literally 1 named attack. All others were unnamed. His Haki and physical strength are always the same power and Smoker was able to match it. Smoker who does not have any physical boosters. That shows Vergo's power is still on the general level of Smoker/Luffy, and spinning his bamboo quickly is not going to be anywhere near as big of a power upgrade as Luffy going into G3. Oni Take also gains part of its power from being highly concentrated force much like Zoro's Shi SS SS.



> I think Smoker could bust up certain portions of Pica's golem as well just not as much. A Haki Smoke Gatling would suffice for him to pressure and defend from Pica.



Sure he can but nowhere near in hell what Chin/DCJ/Zoro did.



> I'll also remind you that Zoro got punched mid air by a mino golem Pica made and Zoro was able to completely overpower it's force and slash cleanly through it. Zoro on a seperate occasion easily sliced cleanly through some of Pica's stone by just placing his swords on the stone and running. Pica's stones are not that strong. You think Zoro could do that to steel?



Zoro is Zoro. Future WSS who was trained by the current WSS for 2 years. Zoro's hyper sharp ranged slashes aren't comparable to Haki blunt force blows. He also didn't "overpower" anything. Pica slammed him into the ground and at the last second he simply cut the golem splitting it in half, thus avoiding the impact. This isn't Zoro overpowering the attack's force, it's him splitting the material the attack is made of in half. Saying Zoro overpowered its force is like saying passive Bird Cage "overpowered" Fuji's meteor.



> It completely immobilized him, and caused him to collapse. He was completely incapable of defending himself with anything more than a bit of his smoke( which he used to give the heart to Law), for all intesive purposes Oni Take blew the wind out of his sail, which would have led to his defeat in a fight.



You can't say it caused him to conclusively collapse when Smoker was done fighting anyway. He accomplished his goal and gave Law his heart then rested. He had no further goals of defending or continuing to fight. Once he got up he looked nowhere near in hell defeated. He just look moderately beat up but was able to move around fine and showed no signs of being in pain or distress or weary etc. He was far, far, far worse for the wear when Doflamingo cut him up. _That_ was Smoker being KO'd (not even then, technically speaking, but much closer than Oni Take came).

Bottom line is, this assertion you keep repeating that Oni Take oneshotted Smoker is a lie and just pure Vergo wank. Smoker wasn't 100% when he took it and he didn't get shot even close to 0%. You gotta stop perpetuating this myth, it's no better than rabid Zoro fans raving about him pushing back Fujitora. Doesn't do the character any favor to exaggerate and overwank them.



> When did I claim he could destroy it all?





			
				Dr.White said:
			
		

> Base Vergo has the feats to completely break down Pica's golem.



You are too eager to prop up Vergo so you end up overrating him and basically calling him a walking king punch dispenser just by virtue of your scaling. He's not meant to be that so take it down a notch.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 23, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Pointless to debate since his FBH form is a complete unknown. I'll leave that one.
> 
> I agree it would cause decent damage, but in the process of defending Vergo you get ahead of yourself too much and overrate his attack power. You have to start viewing Vergo more rationally.
> 
> ...





Really Corus.


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## Coruscation (Feb 23, 2015)

What I said is 100% true. Are you also a delusional Vergo wanker?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 23, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> *What I said is 100% true*. Are you also a delusional Vergo wanker?






*Spoiler*: __


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Pointless to debate since his FBH form is a complete unknown. I'll leave that one.


Well that was a part of my summation. We know he gains signifigant muscle mass and power, and given his base feats, We can ballpark him, and certainly conclude he would do extensive damage to Pica's golems.




> I agree it would cause decent damage, but in the process of defending Vergo you get ahead of yourself too much and overrate his attack power. You have to start viewing Vergo more rationally.


Can you point out where I started over rating him? The man's attack power clearly isn't anything to mess with. Pica has done nothing for me to say his rock golems would hold up to the man who's base diluted equivalent of a baseball swing dented steel meters away.





> Vergo has literally 1 named attack. All others were unnamed. His Haki and physical strength are always the same power and Smoker was able to match it.


Ok, and that makes Oni Take special does it not.

I don't see why you keep saying Smoker matched it like Smoker can't dish out DC of his own. 

also matching an odd strike from someone doesn't mean that you can match all of their arsenal. 



> Smoker who does not have any physical boosters. That shows Vergo's power is still on the general level of Smoker/Luffy, and spinning his bamboo quickly is not going to be anywhere near as big of a power upgrade as Luffy going into G3. Oni Take also gains part of its power from being highly concentrated force much like Zoro's Shi SS SS.


The only problem is Pica's medium isn't durable enough to tank enough of the force before it starts to break and transfer the force, just like it did in Canon. All the force Smoker's Jutte, himself, and the steel walls took is gonna have to be distrubuted through Pica's stone. 



> Sure he can but nowhere near in hell what Chin/DCJ/Zoro did.


Okay and Vergo has better Haki than Smoker even in base, plus much better stats in FBH mode. So overall Vergo has alot more to work with than Smoker he relies on his craftiness and Jutte more so than pure raw power.





> Zoro is Zoro. Future WSS who was trained by the current WSS for 2 years.


I don't care who Zoro is going to be. I care about who he is right now. That says nothing as to his comparison to Vergo right now. Will Zoro be stronger? Is he a bit stronger right now maybe? Yeah sure I'd say that's likely, but he isn't anwhere close to be signifigantly > Vergo let alone FBH vergo in COA attack power, and physical stats.



> Zoro's hyper sharp ranged slashes aren't comparable to Haki blunt force blows. He also didn't "overpower" anything. Pica slammed him into the ground and at the last second he simply cut the golem splitting it in half, thus avoiding the impact.


That isn't ow physics works. 

Zoro still had to stop the force of Pica hitting him, and then over power it enough for his swords to have the motive force to notonly push back the fist, but cleanly slice through them all the way through. Zoro had to do that with physical strength, and skill. His swords just add the slicing catalyst needed.

I also don't know if Zoro did it before he hit the ground, have to re read it.



> This isn't Zoro overpowering the attack's force, it's him splitting the material the attack is made of in half. Saying Zoro overpowered its force is like saying passive Bird Cage "overpowered" Fuji's meteor.


Not at all. False comparison.

Zoro was mid air and had nothing to brace himself to collect energy. Pica was not only leaning down (going with gravity), but had a base to punch from. Zoro blocked it, and was able to overpower all that downward momentum, and then have enough strength to cut the golem through on top of that. 

The meteor's themselves had a ton of Kinetic energy going downward. Dofla's strings obviously had a ridiculous amount of tension, and since they are thin they easily sliced through the material barreling down at those speeds. *Zoro didn't immediately slice through Pica's fist. He blocked it similar to how he blocked the Dragon's bite in PH. I could see your point had he done something similar to Demon Horse where he met Pica's attack head on with an immediate slash.*




> You can't say it caused him to conclusively collapse when Smoker was done fighting anyway. He accomplished his goal and gave Law his heart then rested. He had no further goals of defending or continuing to fight.




What part of Oda showing us Vergo breaking through his Haki Jutte, and having Smoker collapse to the floor after swearing vengeance for his betrayal didn't register as " this attack completely fucked Smoker's day up"?

Smoker taking the TKO hit was apart of what made his debt to Law so impactful. 



> Once he got up he looked nowhere near in hell defeated. He just look moderately beat up but was able to move around fine and showed no signs of being in pain or distress or weary etc. He was far, far, far worse for the wear when Doflamingo cut him up. _That_ was Smoker being KO'd (not even then, technically speaking, but much closer than Oni Take came).


I never claimed Oni Take made Smoker a parapelegic or turned his brain into mush. He TKO'd Smoker. Plain and simple. By this logic, If I knock someone out in the UFC with a Roundhouse, and they can get up in half a minute and be able to go again, or atleast seem fine on the surface, that my attack didn't in turn bypass their durability and cause them to lose consciousness. 



> Bottom line is, this assertion you keep repeating that Oni Take oneshotted Smoker is a lie and just pure Vergo wank. Smoker wasn't 100% when he took it and he didn't get shot even close to 0%.


But it did. Smoker was relatively fine lol. He took a couple off panel punches dude. Vergo for comparison ate 2 Pacifista shattering blows from Sanji, and a countershock before taking 2 blows from Smoker himself. 

If Smoker would have done in Vergo in a climactic hit similar to Oni I could see your point. Smoker was relatively fine, nothing that would otherwise affect his ability to take Oni Take.



> You gotta stop perpetuating this myth, it's no better than rabid Zoro fans raving about him pushing back Fujitora. Doesn't do the character any favor to exaggerate and overwank them.




< Comparing fans warping Zoro getting his shit rocked by low ends moves from Fujitora in one clash to me breaking down how Vergo TKO'd Smoker in one on panel shot







> You are too eager to prop up Vergo so you end up overrating him and basically calling him a walking king punch dispenser just by virtue of your scaling. He's not meant to be that so take it down a notch.


-Base Vergo was portrayed slightl superior to Sanji in a clash, and as someone who could tango with Smoker to atleast high Diff. He's easily M3 level in power. I don't see how any one what I said has been me wanking or overrating Vergo. 

Sanji hasn't shown the feats or pure destruction that would suffice to say he bust certain portions of Pica. Hell by feats with no scaling, Don fucking Sai kicks harder than Sanji. Don Sai would fuck Pica up no problem if he hit him (in the area he struck) yet I'm getting flack for saying Vergo (unrestricted) is gonna be able to pust Pica's stone?

Okay


----------



## Intus Legere (Feb 23, 2015)

Did I ever tell you that I really dislike this style of debate? Well, here we go.



Dr. White said:


> So what? Does the fact that Luffy can't jump 100 Meters change his on panel feats? Does that change the way we should view certain feats and their on panel Destructive capability? No....
> 
> A karate master can break 15 concrete slabs with his elbow, more than most, but he still can't jump 20 ft... Does that mean his strength feat isn't real? I'm really not understanding this portion of your argument.
> 
> ...



It means you should take manga feats as they are shown to you, not by what you think they should do by applying real world logic. Oni Take may be stronger than pre-skip Gear Third, but it doesn't mean it can cause more area of effect damage. Pre-skip Natsu has some equivalent or better AOE feats than most of post-skip Natsu attacks, which doesn't mean they were even remotely comparable in power. It happens all the time in all fictional universes. Applying "science" to fictional works and pretending to know better than the author is pretty silly.




> They have different ways of being administered no doubt, but there is also a very large difference in energy output.





> What kinds of effects? Obviously Red hawk is going to burn and 5,000 tile punch isn't but I'm talking about energy outputs.



Hello again, OBD. Energy output is meaningless, as far as the manga goes. If Oda wants Oni Take to be powerful but concentrated shot, that's what it will be. If Oda wants Red Hawk to be a powerful and quick punch with burning effect, that's what it will be. Unless you can convince Oda (and all comic book and manga authors) to be consistent regarding theoretical energy output as calculated by the very advanced field of manga-science.

Pretty much the same answer, really.



> How is the technique not suited to do such?
> 
> What do you think is going to happen to the force of the blow when it makes contact with Pica?



It will cause a lot of damage in a medium to a somewhat large area, maybe. Compared to Pica's humongous statue, however, it would be a too little.



> You don't think the energy is not going to dissipate through Pica's body until the energy is fully expended? Or does it naturally just go away after cracking Pica where he got hit at?





> It will
> 
> Go look at what Light King Punch and Drill Nail did to Pica's arm. They hit a very small spot on Pica's golem hand, and the force completely went through his arm and broke it further up. *The same thing is going to happen when Pica gets slapped with Oni Take.*



Drill nail is an attack meant to cause huge cracks. Kugi Punch, in all the three times (or was it more) that we saw being used, caused A LOT of area-of-effect damage. Even if they were similar attacks, both are probably quite a bit stronger than Oni Take, anyhow.


To summarize the argument: you think like and OBDer. I take the manga for what it is and for what it shows me. We're simply not going to agree, unless we change our mindsets.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> It means you should take manga feats as they are shown to you, not by what you think they should do by applying real world logic. Oni Take may be stronger than pre-skip Gear Third, but it doesn't mean it can cause more area of effect damage.


And I am, it's not my fault you are comprehending how energy transfer would work. 

Against a stone medium? Yes it is. 

For example answer the following: What does more damage?

A shopping cart filled to the tee with TNT, or a freaking rail gun round?





> Hello again, OBD. Energy output is meaningless, as far as the manga goes.


Idk why you keep trying to make subjective distinctions. Energy output is not meaningless. Diamante's slash obviously has less energy than Mihawk's MF slash. There is a reason for that and it is quantifiable. 

Physics are still active in the OP world idk why you're acting brand new.



> If Oda wants Oni Take to be powerful but concentrated shot, that's what it will be.


Okay and now explain to me how it being concentrated is going to stop it from fucking Pica's Stone body up please.



> If Oda wants Red Hawk to be a powerful and quick punch with burning effect, that's what it will be.


And by using Basic Logic I could understand his current Red Hawk is leagues stronger than all of his pre skip moves.

You do realize that A pre skip G3 rifle could barely put down a severly damaged pacifista, yet pre skip Luffy soloed one with an odd Jet Pistol right?



> Unless you can convince Oda (and all comic book and manga authors) to be consistent regarding theoretical energy output as calculated by the very advanced field of manga-science.


Ok. So basically all your arguments revolve around sarcastically damning calcs and the application of science and common sense to a manga all the while having no argument of your own. On top of which you apparently are arguing for subjective interpretation




> It will cause a lot of damage in a small area. Pica's statue, however, is humongous.


What do you mean? The atarget he was aiming at took a brunt of the damage and even then it caused air to dent steel. Like I don't understand what you are understanding about energy being uniform. AOE =/ DC

Take for example the Kick Sanji used to crack a Pacifista's neck. We know in pre skip it took a combined SH total combo to take out just 1, including 2 barrages of high level M3 attacks. 

By your logic that would do less than Luffy's pre skip G3 rifle....

Hell by your logic Sanji shouldn't have been able to block Oars Bazooka.





> Drill nail is an attack meant to cause huge cracks. Kugi Punch, in all the three times (or was it more) that we saw being used, caused A LOT of area-of-effect damage.


okay but both had enough energy to crack through Pica's golem hand which is the point I'm trying to get across to you. When vergo hits Pica he isn't just going to crack where his staff hits.



> To summarize the argument: you think like and OBDer. I take the manga for what it is and for what it shows me. We're simply not going to agree, unless we change our mindsets.


And based on what Oda has shown us it's ridiculous to think just because Vergo's attack doesn't have AOE, that it wouldn't harm Pica's golem.

Sanji could freaking kick down huge walls even pre skip, with just an odd kick. By your logic he shouldn't have been able to since his foot doesn't have large AOE. Hell by your logic that same kick would do more damage to structure than something like his pre skip anti manner kick.

Even from a sole author portrayal standpoint it's stupid to thikn Vergo couldn't muster enough damage to crack Pica's golem. By the same logic Sanji couldn't, and Don Sai would cause more damage to Pica than Sanji could imagine to.


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## Intus Legere (Feb 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> And I am, it's not my fault you are comprehending how energy transfer would work.





> Physics are still active in the OP world idk why you're acting brand new.





> Ok. So basically all your arguments revolve around sarcastically damning calcs and the application of science and common sense to a manga all the while having no argument of your own. On top of which you apparently are arguing for subjective interpretation





> Okay and now explain to me how it being concentrated is going to stop it from fucking Pica's Stone body up please.



Maybe someday you will understand that manga is art, not science. Feats are what they are. I kind of remember you posting in the Colosseum... and I really wonder if you managed to win a single match, with that kind of mindset and argumentation — then again, maybe you didn't try this same trick there, or maybe the Colosseum has changed for worse enough to consider a calculation of energy output.

Fictional universes are not the real world, and there are many, MANY attacks with immense energy output that don't cause relevant area damage. There are attacks that shouldn't cause damage given their low energy output, but they do nonetheless: Diamante throws some spiked balls to the air, and their fall heavily damages Kyros, who should have some "town level durability" or any other fancy term that you guys like to use. Robin blocks them with flowers, which should have... flower-level durability. Theoretically, if they are light, they shouldn't really hurt Kyros at all, and if they are heavy, they shouldn't be blocked by flowers.

What's the logic behind this? None. The manga is what it is. Oni Take doesn't cause AOE damage unless shown, and energy output is irrelevant.



> By your logic that would do less than Luffy's pre skip G3 rifle....
> 
> Hell by your logic Sanji shouldn't have been able to block Oars Bazooka.




You really lack reading comprehension, Dr. White. I'm not going to explain again how AOE damage does not translate to overall power of an attack. If you want to pretend that science can explain how things work in manga, go ahead. If you want to pretend that there aren't clear examples that real world logic does not apply in One Piece, go ahead. Make a fool of yourself.

There is no "my logic" here. Sanji "should have been able to block Oars Bazooka because he did. If Oda says that pre-skip Sanji can launch a powerful kick in mid-air, despite the physical improbability of it being effective, then it can happen. Vergo should be able to do the same. Any kind of logic should be derived, with restrictions, from Oda's own manga logic.

Again, you think like an OBDer. Pretend all you want that science applies in One Piece and that via powerscaling a Oni Take in FBH can destroy a mountain. I'm not going to buy this.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Maybe someday you will understand that manga is art, not science. Feats are what they are.


Oda clearly has physics at work in his manga. Oda clearly wants to resonate with us a sense of destruction when he shows us feats. Otherwise there isno reason for things like Luffy punching through Bedrock, busting through tower walls/metal doors, and kicking down houses. Just because Oda doesn't do the calcs before he makes feat doesn't mean there aren't values for said feats. And Oda has made consistency over the years with his powerscaling. So yeah, lets bury that argument right here.



> I remember you in the Colosseum. I really wonder if you managed to win a single match, with that kind of mindset and argumentation.


This is completely irrelevant. For the record I was 16- 12 - 1 with one championship and semi final, it's called accurately breaking down feats, not just going off subjective impressions.



> Fictional universes are not the real world, and there are many, MANY attacks with immense energy output that don't cause relevant area damage.


It is not exactly the real world but it does mimic it. We can infer many things, such as; Gravity should be the same in one piece, water is still water and most life is aqeuous, they share similar chemicals (NHC10), etc. So it's ludicrous to think that we can't use our own physics to evaluate a feat.

It doesn't matter if the values don't exactly match up with our real world values because the only thing that needs to be uniform in the analysis is the physics behind the calculations, which could take to any world in our solar system, and use. The pythagorean theorem can be applied to one piece, scaling, goemetry, etc. None of that falls apart when it comes to the one piece world. 



> Diamante throws some spiked balls to the air, and their fall heavily damages Kyros, who should have some "town level durability" or any other fancy term that you guys like to use.


Just because someone is town level durability doesn't mean they can't be injured or hurt. Kyros took a shit ton of cumulative damage to his body. a real human would have been fucking paste. 



> Robin blocks them with flowers. Theoretically, if they are light, they shouldn't really hurt Kyros at all, and if they are heavy, they shouldn't be blocked by flowers.


They are spiked steel balls falling from hundreds of feet in ridiculously numerous numbers. Robin used her knowledge to pad the balls by creating a shit ton of biomass as a padding, and she was taking hits because she could only effectively keep Rebecca safe with the makeshift method. 



> What's the logic behind this? None. The manga is what it is. Oni Take doesn't cause AOE damage unless shown, and energy output is irrelevant.


The logic is common fucking sense. 

You have no counter argument to the basic physics at play. Like seriously, Vergo's energy is gonna dissapear lol? 

Dude stand up in whatever room you are in right now and stomp as hard as you can on the ground. Or better yet, take something heavy and drop it. Now tell me, did the AOE of the object (or your foot)'s energy stop local to where the object stopped making contact with the floor? Or did your whole fucking room Raddle?

Better yet, lets look at an extreme example. the meteor that touched down on Russia a couple years ago was about 3ft (or 3m, I forget the exact unit). When it touched down, it completely rattled parts of the city. How does this happen if the meteorite is only 3m  ?




> You really lack reading comprehemsion, Dr. White. I'm not going to explain again how AOE damage does not translate to overall power of an attack. If you want to pretend that science can explain how things work in manga, go ahead. If you want to pretend that there clear examples that real world logic does not apply in One Piece, go ahead. Make a fool of yourself.


lol okay man. Appeal to science not being real in a manga where people use science as a part of their combat style, and clear laws of physics are present. okey dokey.



> There is no "your logic" here. Sanji "should have been able to block Oars Bazooka because he did. If Oda says that Sanji can launch a powerful kick in mid-air, despite the physical impossibility of it, then it can happen.


Oh my fucking gosh this conversation is so passed you. Of course if Oda says that then it can fucking happen. Calcs come posterori to a feat. In One Piece humans are gifted with much more physicality and special powers. That just happens to be natural in their world, that doesn't change the fact that despite it's differences the basic physics that runs the world are similar to ours. That is just a fact. Undeniable.

A calc takes a feat like Sanji's and applies our knowledge to give it a logical real world value. It doesn't matter if the feat can't be done in our world. As long as Sanji is physically doing the feat, as long as the compositionof materials can be assumed the same, and given the laws of physics still apply, the calc is just fine whether you like or understand it.

 Vergo should be able to do the same. Any kind of logic should be derived, with restrictions, from Oda's own manga logic.



> Again, you think like an OBDer. Pretend all you want that science applies in One Piece and that a via powerscaling Oni Take in FBH can destroy a mountain. I'm not going to buy that.


Cool, no one told you to engage me in conversation bruh.


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## Intus Legere (Feb 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Just because someone is town level durability doesn't mean they can't be injured or hurt. Kyros took a shit ton of cumulative damage to his body. a real human would have been fucking paste.
> 
> 
> They are spiked steel balls falling from hundreds of feet in ridiculously numerous numbers. Robin used her knowledge to pad the balls by creating a shit ton of biomass as a padding, and she was taking hits because she could only effectively keep Rebecca safe with the makeshift method.



You're going to defend Oda on this? Whoa, you're a dedicated fan.

Fine, next time I'm gonna tell someone to destroy towns using small iron spiky balls that can be blocked by flowers (or like you said, a "shit ton" of biomass... which probably didn't weight a single ton). Must be super effective.

No really, do you really believe yourself what you just said?

...

Last but not least, you're really biased. Towards Vergo too, as you are towards Law and towards One Piece as a manga. It makes debating REALLY hard, as you can't see any other point of view that denies Oda his godliness and Vergo and Law their might. As for the rest of the argument, I kind of imagine your answers, you already know mine, and it's going to lead nowhere, so I'm not going to bother.


Just for instance:



Coruscation said:


> The scenes below illustrates White's point about how DC can translate to AOE:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I kind of agree with this. You, however, are writing a fanfic, pretty much.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

>  , and 

I've seen the light.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> You're going to defend Oda on this? Whoa, you're a dedicated fan.
> 
> Fine, next time I'm gonna tell someone to destroy towns using small iron spiky balls that can be blocked by flowers (or like you said, a "shit ton" of biomass... which probably didn't weight a single ton). Must be super effective.
> 
> No really, do you really believe yourself what you just said?


Do you think WB could survive Chinjao's Island splitting headbutt, or the punch Garp used to counteract it?

Do you believe the panel of WB being hurt by regular bullets and swords, is a real chapter drawn by Oda?

If you answered yes to both of these questions, congratulations you've ust realized characters can have town level durability or higher and still be injured by attacks less than that.




> Last but not least, you're really biased. Towards Vergo too, as you are towards Law and towards One Piece as a manga.


You call me bias but somehow always refuse to rebuttal my arguments?

you gain my top keks.


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## Gohara (Feb 23, 2015)

If Pica is indeed Doflamingo's most powerful subordinate, he wins with around high difficulty.


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## Amol (Feb 23, 2015)

It is not really Vergo wanking , well it is.
But it is just more indirect Law Wanking.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2015)

Implying I need to boost up Vergo for Law to still be > Luffy


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 24, 2015)

Vergo is in the same tier as Pika

Zoro is two tiers above both


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## TheWiggian (Feb 24, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Vergo is in the same tier as Pika
> 
> Zoro is two tiers above both




Yes and Law in the same as Vergo and Pica or barely a little above.


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 24, 2015)

I lol at people who say Law is in the same tier as Luffy & Zoro.



Only Luffy & Zoro guaranteed to be future legends.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 24, 2015)

I 





Jeep Brah said:


> I lol at people who say Law is in the same tier as Luffy & Zoro.
> 
> 
> 
> Only Luffy & Zoro guaranteed to be future legends.



I lol at people who say Law is the next WB  
I mean how can you become the next WB if you die at the start of the new world against someone like Doffy.


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## Coruscation (Feb 24, 2015)

Dr.White said:
			
		

> We know he gains signifigant muscle mass and power, and given his base feats, We can ballpark him, and certainly conclude he would do extensive damage to Pica's golems.



No, we "know" very freaking little. You love to pretend you know but you don't and I'm not going to waste time entertaining a delusion.



> Ok, and that makes Oni Take special does it not.
> 
> I don't see why you keep saying Smoker matched it like Smoker can't dish out DC of his own.
> 
> also matching an odd strike from someone doesn't mean that you can match all of their arsenal.



It’s his ultimate move. The difference between it and a normal move is the speed at which he swings his staff. *That's it.* It’s a decent boost but it doesn’t put in a whole different fucking universe of power and it doesn’t mean all his other moves are ridiculously weaker.

Smoker's kick is roughly equivalent to Luffy's kick since they should have comparable strength and COA. That means Vergo’s regular Haki attacks are in the same ballpark. Luffy’s G2 Hardening moves alone are a step above that and his G3 Hardening move are much much stronger than G2. So in short Hardened G3 >>>>>>>> Vergo’s freaking Haki moves, and Hardened G3 still isn’t as strong as a Hasshouken Ougi Drill Nail most likely given the flathead version took one to overpower.

It means only Vergo’s high end moves can strongly overpower Smoker. Which is what you would expect from something like Luffy's high end G2 moves as well. G3 is on a different level altogether and so are moves like 1080 PC, Drill Dragon and King's Punch. Vergo doesn't have that clout.



> The only problem is Pica's medium isn't durable enough to tank enough of the force before it starts to break and transfer the force, just like it did in Canon. All the force Smoker's Jutte, himself, and the steel walls took is gonna have to be distrubuted through Pica's stone.



It doesn't matter. Quantitative comparisons show that Vergo's moves aren't sufficiently strong to cause massive amounts of damage to Pica when Hardened G3 and even stronger moves than that are what's required. Vergo's moves are essentially somewhere between base Luffy and G3 but closer to the former, that's simply not enough to heavily tear up Pica.



> he isn't anwhere close to be signifigantly > Vergo let alone FBH vergo in COA attack power, and physical stats.



Sorry buddy, Zoro has shown far higher destructive power than Vergo and that's where things stand. Whatever you can speculate about FBH doesn't matter as I can counterspeculate that Zoro is going to show some beastly moves when he actually goes all out. Vergo obviously has Zoro beat in defense and has much better mobility/dash speed. But offense is Zoro's forte and he would by all accounts hand Vergo his ass in that area.



> Zoro still had to stop the force of Pica hitting him, and then over power it enough for his swords to have the motive force to notonly push back the fist



No he fucking didn't. Stop perpetuating this faux science nonsense. Zoro never "pushed back" Pica's fist, not in the fucking slightest. What he did was make a clean cut right through it causing it to separate in half.



> The meteor's themselves had a ton of Kinetic energy going downward. Dofla's strings obviously had a ridiculous amount of tension, and since they are thin they easily sliced through the material barreling down at those speeds.



And Pica's fucking fist didn't have kinetic energy? A sword slash from Zoro trained by Mihawk doesn't easily slice like a hot knife through butter through ordinary rock? It's the same goddamned thing that happened; a very sharp object (in this case a cut from a legendary sword) connected with a big slab of stone moving with a huge amount of energy and seared it clean in half. Dofla did the same thing to the meteor on Green Bit by simply waving his hand. Dofla waving his hand does not have more fucking cutting power than Zoro when even a bear swipe can be blocked by Law's bare hands w/ COA.



> Zoro didn't immediately slice through Pica's fist. He blocked it similar to how he blocked the Dragon's bite in PH.



You're talking out of your ass, White. Go reread the scene and stop spreading falsehoods. *Zoro cut the stone fist causing it to separate in half. He never fucking blocked its raw physical force*.



> What part of Oda showing us Vergo breaking through his Haki Jutte, and having Smoker collapse to the floor after swearing vengeance for his betrayal didn't register as " this attack completely fucked Smoker's day up"?



What part of your mind is unable to register the fact that Smoker was nowhere near in hell as beat up as when he was actually close to 0% against Doflamingo as evidenced by his ability to get up and move around no problem shortly afterwards and show no signs of severe injury?



> Smoker was relatively fine lol. He took a couple off panel punches dude. Vergo for comparison ate 2 Pacifista shattering blows from Sanji, and a countershock before taking 2 blows from Smoker himself.



Jesus christ what? Your Vergo wank is reaching absolutely grotesque levels White. Pull your head out of your ass. How do you not register your own cognitive dissonance? You're praising Vergo's moves to the skies in one breath, and then in the next breath you go on handwave them as "a couple off panel punches" and nothing that matters as far as wearing Smoker down goes? If Vergo's attacks are _so fucking strong_ then Smoker taking several of them, including to the head, is a big deal and obviously going to mess him up, meaning he wasn't nearly at full strength when taking Oni Take. You can't act like on the one hand Oni Take is some king's punch class god move and on the other multiple hits including to the face didn't do any significant damage to Smoker. Oni Take is not some god level technique. It's Vergo's strongest attack that capped off the beating Smoker had already taken and still didn't bring him anywhere near 0%. It's time to stop wanking it.



> Comparing fans warping Zoro getting his shit rocked by low ends moves from Fujitora in one clash to me breaking down how Vergo TKO'd Smoker in one on panel shot



You're right, sorry. Zoro actually did push a blocking Fujitora back while saying that Vergo brought Smoker from 100% to 0% or close to it in one attack is just _plain fucking false_ by any measuring stick. What's common between both cases though is the exaggeration in order to prop up a character you're overly fanboyish toward.



> Sanji hasn't shown the feats or pure destruction that would suffice to say he bust certain portions of Pica. Hell by feats with no scaling, Don fucking Sai kicks harder than Sanji. Don Sai would fuck Pica up no problem if he hit him (in the area he struck)



HM shits pretty hard on anything Vergo produced in terms of AOE so nuh-uh. Exactly, Drill Dragon is definitely a shitload stronger than Sanji's kicks in terms of physical force. So what? It's superior to an attack that's far stronger than what it took a G3 Thor Elephant Gun to beat. And it's an attack that Zoro was amazed at the sheer destructive power of. Sanji's kicks can't hold a candle to that. In the combination of speed, physical stats and damage dealing Sanji still craps on Don Sai. Vergo though, he simply hasn't shown what it takes period and it's past time to stop wanking the hypothetical.


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## trance (Feb 24, 2015)

Vergo should be _at least_ intelligent enough to move out of the fucking way when Pica is about to throw a punch the size of a mountain. That's simple battle smarts. Then, it becomes a matter of when Vergo finds Pica's real body.

Edit: Actually, scratch that. More like _if_ he finds his real body.


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## Dr. White (Feb 24, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> No, we "know" very freaking little. You love to pretend you know but you don't and I'm not going to waste time entertaining a delusion.


I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you over Vergo's FBH mode giving him an insane amount of strength. His Body physically bulks up, every portion of his body is clad in offesnive/defensive augmenting COA haki, and the way Oda portrayed the mode was to be something that made the already menacing base Vergo into a full blown monster.

i never said we quantifiably knew how much stronger he got, just that he got stronger which is a fact. If you're going to argue that Vergo's battle competency doesn't increase with his FBH mode then you my friend are truly the delusional one.





> Its his ultimate move. The difference between it and a normal move is the speed at which he swings his staff. *That's it.*


Okay, so therefore it's special as I said.



> Its a decent boost but it doesnt put in a whole different fucking universe of power and it doesnt mean all his other moves are ridiculously weaker.


They are signifgantly stronger.

Law survived taking a Staff, a Direct soru Kick (which is weaker than the kick Vergo cracked Sanji's leg with), a Haki Elbow, and then a Haki Fist all to the face and upper body. Are you really gonna tell me Oni Take (which TKO'd Smoker in one on panel shot) isn't much stronger? Or is Law just that durable 



> Smoker's kick is roughly equivalent to Luffy's kick since they should have comparable strength and COA. That means Vergos regular Haki attacks are in the same ballpark. Luffys G2 Hardening moves alone are a step above that and his G3 Hardening move are much much stronger than G2. So in short Hardened G3 >>>>>>>> Vergos freaking Haki moves,


Okay this is all fine and Dandy, but Base Vergo doesn't need G3 level attacks at all time to survive against Pica, nor have I ever claimed Base Vergo could output G3 level firepower.



> and Hardened G3 still isnt as strong as a Hasshouken Ougi Drill Nail most likely given the flathead version took one to overpower.


Point?  never said Vergo coud muster the energy DC could with his best move.



> It means only Vergos high end moves can strongly overpower Smoker. Which is what you would expect from something like Luffy's high end G2 moves as well. G3 is on a different level altogether and so are moves like 1080 PC, Drill Dragon and King's Punch. Vergo doesn't have that clout.


That's what his Haki mode is for. I mean yeah we can't take something ambiguous and scale it to others, but based on Vergo's base attributes that form should easily allow him to compete with said people even if he can't directly match their DC output number for number. 





> It doesn't matter. Quantitative comparisons show that Vergo's moves aren't sufficiently strong to cause massive amounts of damage to Pica when Hardened G3 and even stronger moves than that are what's required.


G3 is not required though. Luffy was on his way past Pica who was a massive roadblock so Luffy skipped the bullshit and pulled out a move he knew would let him by. That in no way necessitates you need G3 level power to break Pica's stone body. Do you need g3 strength to completely bust the head like Luffy did? Sure. Do you need it to break his stone up on lower levels of magnitude? No.



> Vergo's moves are essentially somewhere between base Luffy and G3 but closer to the former, that's simply not enough to heavily tear up Pica.


Okay so Base Vergo is somewhere between Base and G3 Luffy that's fine. You think a Haki Jet Gatling from Luffy wouldn't bust through Pica's golem? You think Luffy's fist would stop and not injure the Golem?





> Sorry buddy, Zoro has shown far higher destructive power than Vergo and that's where things stand. Whatever you can speculate about FBH doesn't matter as I can counterspeculate that Zoro is going to show some beastly moves when he actually goes all out.


Ok, I said he wasn't over Vergo in Attack power and strength not DC and AOE. And you're counterspeculation would be nonsense. We have Vergo being FBH on panel, we know the effects Haki gives, we know FBH Vergo > Base Vergo, we know he has the hype from both Dofla and Caeser in that form. Some random move you would try to counterspeculate is off panel, completely hypothetical, and we wouldn't even know where to start.



> Vergo obviously has Zoro beat in defense and has much better mobility/dash speed. But offense is Zoro's forte and he would by all accounts hand Vergo his ass in that area.


Offense is obviously a big part of Vergo's game. Sanji didn't have him crack Sanji's leg, and show us his amazing haki for nothing. Zoro's offense may be a bit better based on his greater showings and particular fighting style, but that doesn't mean he hands Vergo his ass in that area 



> No he fucking didn't. Stop perpetuating this faux science nonsense. Zoro never "pushed back" Pica's fist, not in the fucking slightest. What he did was make a clean cut right through it causing it to separate in half.


Call it Faux science, but it's really just common sense and basic understanding of physics.
-You clearly Zoro in the air.
-You clearly see Pica punch down at him, and Zoro blocking parallel to the golem.
-Then Pica smashes the ground, but Zoro (now standing and not paralel  to the golem) slashes him just as they reach. 

This means Zoro had to have taken the force of the punch in air, and completely counter it enough to dissipate the force of the blow that would have otherwise damage him, and slicely cut through it on top of that.

Not hard just follow the panels.





> And Pica's fucking fist didn't have kinetic energy?


According to you he doesn't since apparently Zoro's blades are so good they can cut through his fist without taking energy  



> A sword slash from Zoro trained by Mihawk doesn't easily slice like a hot knife through butter through ordinary rock?


So now you agree it's ordinary rock? Zoro can cleave through a Pica downward fist without matching and exceeding the force (which he needs to do to swing his swords through), but Vergo's Haki hits are just going to crack the exterior despite being "ordinary rock"?



> It's the same goddamned thing that happened; a very sharp object (in this case a cut from a legendary sword) connected with a big slab of stone moving with a huge amount of energy and seared it clean in half.


No that isn't at all what happened. What you are describing is what happened here


The one before we very clealy see Pica make contact with Zoro's static swords as he is mid air, and parallel to the fist. It isn't until Pica touches down with the massive attack that we seee the crack, and Zoro in slashing mode. Pica would have fell apart mid air, or atleast certainly as he hit the ground if he got cut when they first made contact.



> Dofla did the same thing to the meteor on Green Bit by simply waving his hand. Dofla waving his hand does not have more fucking cutting power than Zoro when even a bear swipe can be blocked by Law's bare hands w/ COA.


It isn't even close to being the same from a situational standpoint. Pica is a humanoid golem who attacked from a couple dozen meters up. Zoro and him made contact mid air, Pica punched into the ground, and when Zoro hit the ground he immediately thrusted through the chap.

Dofla was chilling as a meteor came down from fucking space. He sliced a small portion of the meteor, and never matched the fucking meteor mid air, he diced the meteor so it would fall around him. It would be comparable if Dofla had been hit mid air, dragged down to the beach and cut the meteor has he touched down, which obviously isn't what happened.

-Dofla is a high tier, and his strings are ridiculously sharp and thin. Different than striking with a sword, hence why Dofla with a casual mid air summersault could moderately injure someone like Sanji with a lower level attack.

-Law only blocked Dofla's strings because Haki dilutes or negates DF attacks. If Dofla had loaded up with Haki I'm sure the outcome would have been different.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 24, 2015)

> *It’s his ultimate move.* *The difference between it and a normal move is the speed at which he swings his staff.* *That's it*. It’s a decent boost but it doesn’t put in a whole different fucking universe of power and it doesn’t mean all his other moves are ridiculously weaker.





Let me try this as well looks fun.

Only difference between Lion Song and a normal slash is the speed at which he unsheathes and re-sheaths his sword.


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 24, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Let me try this as well looks fun.
> 
> Only difference between Lion Song and a normal slash is the speed at which he unsheathes and re-sheaths his sword.



You're forgetting the trajectory point at which Zoro releases the initial velocity.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 1, 2015)

Peeka takes this imo


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