# Oodama RS vs Chibaku Tensei



## Azula (Dec 27, 2013)

Location: Destroyed konoha

Knowledge: Naruto knows about chibaku tensei and how to destroy it

Scenario: SM naruto sees Edo Nagato prepping Chibaku tensei and as his counter starts prepping Oodama Rasenshuriken and then throws it at the core

will naruto survive or get turned to paste?


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## Ghost (Dec 27, 2013)

The orb gets destroyed.


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## Psp123789 (Dec 27, 2013)

The core gets destroyed.


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## Enki (Dec 27, 2013)

Nothing of the core will be left.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 27, 2013)

The core is likely not that durable, but gets harder to hit as it forms more and more of the Jutsu. I'd venture a regular Rasen-Shuriken would do it.


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## Azula (Dec 27, 2013)

i dont think a normal RS is as powerful as a bijuu dama


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 27, 2013)

-Azula- said:


> i dont think a normal RS is as powerful as a bijuu dama



Who said anything about a Bijudama? First, I just want to point out that a Bijudama's power has a huge range. In Ch 551, they had a conversation before throwing their attacks and let the Jutsu grow large enough to pretty much dwarf the attacks. When Pain used Chibaku Tensei against 6TK, it had grown to a sizable amount. What you are describing is Naruto sensing and literally waiting for Chibaku Tensei to get thrown up into the air. A Rasen-Shuriken's speed is enough to match Enton lol.


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## RedChidori (Dec 27, 2013)

The core gets absolutely decimated


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## Bonly (Dec 27, 2013)

saikyou said:


> The orb gets destroyed.





Psp123789 said:


> The core gets destroyed.





GreenDBM90 said:


> Nothing of the core will be left.





RedChidori said:


> The core gets absolutely decimated



Winner winner chicken dinners all around. These guys got it.


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## Krippy (Dec 27, 2013)

The core should be destroyed.


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## Kyu (Dec 27, 2013)

COFRS soloes



Master Sephiroth said:


> Who said anything about a Bijudama?



I believe op is saying he/she believes Bijudama's destructive output is necessary to destroy CT's core.


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## Jizznificent (Dec 27, 2013)

who knows. i wouln't be surprised if CT could tank it either, considering how powerful it is and that it's one of the rinnegan's most powerful jutsu. it could be similar to a neutron star: relatively small but extremely dense and tough to destroy.


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## ARGUS (Dec 27, 2013)

considering naruto throws COFRS before the orb is even properly formed then the orb should be desttroyed 
if the orb forms and develops more then you would need what KCM Naruto Killer Bee and Itachi did


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 27, 2013)

I have to give it to the Rasenshuriken. If Chibaku Tensei's core isn't exposed, it stands more of a chance, but under these circumstances the FRS blows it up.


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## Azula (Dec 30, 2013)

all i agreement?


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## Jizznificent (Dec 30, 2013)

-Azula- said:


> all i agreement?


Maybe, but not necessarily. We've never seen the core it self being tested so for me it is still up in the air.


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## The World (Dec 30, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The core is likely not that durable, but gets harder to hit as it forms more and more of the Jutsu. I'd venture a regular Rasen-Shuriken would do it.



Are you smoking crack?

It took Itachi's magatama, RS Naruto's RS, and Bee's Bijuudama to destroy it

how can a regular RasenShuriken destroy it?


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

The World said:


> Are you smoking crack?
> 
> It took Itachi's magatama, RS Naruto's RS, and Bee's Bijuudama to destroy it
> 
> how can a regular RasenShuriken destroy it?



You should probably pay more attention to the OP and later posts I've made explaining the difference between this scenario and that scenario.

I want to point out though that it didn't necessarily take all three of their attacks. At max it took that much, but at minimum it only took one of their attacks. Deciphering which of the three it was is impossible, but we go by the fact that it took all three of their attacks because they wanted to make sure it would be destroyed.

Regardless of that, if Naruto is literally waiting for the core to go up into the air, he will hit point blank instead of having a full on conversation with Itachi and Bee while waiting for the thing to grow to a size that dwarfed all of their attacks in size.


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## Jagger (Dec 30, 2013)

Jizznificent said:


> who knows. i wouln't be surprised if CT could tank it either, considering how powerful it is and that it's one of the rinnegan's most powerful jutsu. it could be similar to a neutron star: relatively small but extremely dense and tough to destroy.


Well, you're right. But OP is specifically talking about the core itself when it's thrown at the sky and starts pulling in everything around it. During that frame of time, Naruto throws the attack and destroys it.

Of course, the more time it passes, the core will be start to be covered by rocks, trees and other stuff, making it harder for the jutsu to hit it, but that's besides the point.


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## The World (Dec 30, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> You should probably pay more attention to the OP and later posts I've made explaining the difference between this scenario and that scenario.
> 
> I want to point out though that it didn't necessarily take all three of their attacks. At max it took that much, but at minimum it only took one of their attacks. Deciphering which of the three it was is impossible, but we go by the fact that it took all three of their attacks because they wanted to make sure it would be destroyed.
> 
> Regardless of that, if Naruto is literally waiting for the core to go up into the air, he will hit point blank instead of having a full on conversation with Itachi and Bee while waiting for the thing to grow to a size that dwarfed all of their attacks in size.



Wrong 

at minimum it takes all three to destroy it

and the rest your post is all kinds of wrong


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## ueharakk (Dec 30, 2013)

Oodama FRS easily.  The wind sphere is way more powerful than a bijuudama explosion of the same size, it's way more powerful than a FRS, bijuudama and a YM combined.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

The World said:


> Wrong
> 
> at minimum it takes all three to destroy it
> 
> and the rest your post is all kinds of wrong



Had Yasaka Magatama, Rasen-Shuriken and Bijudama failed by themselves, then at minimum they needed all three. But because that's not the case, that logic falls short. 

And how exactly is the rest of my post wrong? Care to explain exactly how throwing a Rasen-Shuriken at the core as soon as it gets thrown up the same as having a conversation while letting it grow to a significant size before attacking?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Oodama FRS easily.  The wind sphere is way more powerful than a bijuudama explosion of the same size, it's way more powerful than a FRS, bijuudama and a YM combined.



CFRS is more powerful than Bijuu-Dama.


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## ueharakk (Dec 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> CFRS is more powerful than Bijuu-Dama.



no it's not more powerful, it's MUCH more powerful than the typical ones.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> no it's not more powerful, it's MUCH more powerful than the typical ones.



How is CFRS more powerful than a typical Bijuu Dama?


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## ueharakk (Dec 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How is CFRS more powerful than a typical Bijuu Dama?



1) it yields a similar sized, yet far more concentrated and powerful blast.
2) a normal sized FRS is at worst a level below a typical bijuudama based on destructive ability
3) damage a FRS did to much more durable kurama vs damage a typical bijuudama did to gyuki
4) FRS cuts through the juubi's tails that withstand the blast of a bijuudama + tons of more attacks


now, what evidence do you have that CFRS isn't more powerful than a typical bijuudama?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> 1) it yields a similar sized, *yet far more concentrated and powerful blast.*



We don't know the bold for sure.



> 2) a normal sized FRS is at worst a level below a typical bijuudama based on destructive ability



How do we know this for certain?



> 3) damage a FRS did to much more durable kurama vs damage a typical bijuudama did to gyuki



Neither got taken out. 



> 4) FRS cuts through the juubi's tails that withstand the blast of a bijuudama + tons of more attacks



It cut through trees. Nothing suggests Bijuu Dama couldn't get through wood too. 

FRS is designed to slide and Bijuu-Dama is designed to destroy. You're comparing different functions.


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## ueharakk (Dec 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We don't know the bold for sure.


yes we do.  When a FRS explodes into a wind sphere, it creates a perfect spherical crater in the ground, meaning everything that comes into contact with the the sphere gets destroyed.  The only other explosions that are concentrated enough to do that are jinton and juubito's black orbs.  When a bijuudama explodes, it makes a crater, but it's not a perfect sphere like FRS meaning the explosion is less damage dense.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How do we know this for certain?


FRS yielded an explosion that filled up half the chibaku tensei crater
FRS did more damage to kurama than 25+ mountain hollowers

So it's pretty much certain.  In addition to that, we know almost nothing in this manga for certain, and I'm pretty certain that you already know that.  So unless you want to burden your own arguments with a degree of 100% certainty for why my arguments are all false, then you asserting that on my own argument is meaningless.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Neither got taken out.


Since the logic of my post has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not both attacks were powerful enough to take the bijuu out, then I'm guessing you concede this point and agree that based on that, COFRS is much stronger than a normal bijuudama.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It cut through trees. Nothing suggests Bijuu Dama couldn't get through wood too.


The juubi's tails are made of wood now?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> FRS is designed to slice and Bijuu-Dama is designed to destroy. You're comparing different functions.


I'm only saying that based on the FRS ability to cut through the tails that can withstand a bijuudama and a ton of powerful slicing attacks, that it's at least only a level below a bijuudama's power which is extremely generous.  Now, are you asserting that by that feat, the FRS is in fact WAY weaker than a bijuudama?

Finally, I am still waiting for your positive arguments for why a COFRS isn't much stronger than a normal bijuudama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 30, 2013)

The Odama Rasenshuriken is _twice_ as large in the wind dome state compared to a standard Bijudama. It could potentially be several gigatons of power.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 30, 2013)

There's no chance of destroying Chibaku Tensei with Oodama Rasengan unless it can be used directly on the core, before debris gathers.

And it's still pretty iffy.


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## Shariwin (Dec 30, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> The core gets destroyed.



This.

Odama Rasengan might even work, as long as it's not too big.



Nikushimi said:


> There's no chance of destroying Chibaku Tensei with Oodama Rasengan unless it can be used directly on the core, before debris gathers.
> 
> And it's still pretty iffy.



It cuts through debris dude....


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## Nikushimi (Dec 30, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> It cuts through debris dude....



6-Tailed Naruto's Bijuudama failed to penetrate Chibaku Tensei. ORS isn't even close to that.


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## Shariwin (Dec 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 6-Tailed Naruto's Bijuudama failed to penetrate Chibaku Tensei. ORS isn't even close to that.



After it was already the size of a mountain.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 30, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> After it was already the size of a mountain.



That's what I'm presupposing.

If it hits the core directly, then that's _potentially_ a different story.


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## Shariwin (Dec 30, 2013)

Well I said, if it hits it while it was small it could potentially do it.


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## ueharakk (Dec 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 6-Tailed Naruto's Bijuudama failed to penetrate Chibaku Tensei. ORS isn't even close to that.



That's true considering ORS isn't close to that because it's far above it, and thus it easily busts chibaku tensei unless the technique is almost fully formed.

Oh wait, I forgot you're the guy who said Sasori could block a FRS with little to no damage by using *hiruko*.


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## Azula (Dec 31, 2013)

Considering it takes a little time for Naruto to fully charge Oodama RS, I don't think it will hit the naked core but the core surrounded by debris


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2013)

the same jutsu which couldnt beat an unprotected madara destroys CT which took RS, bijudama and yasaka magatama to destroy?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the same jutsu which couldnt beat an unprotected madara destroys CT which took RS, bijudama and yasaka magatama to destroy?


You do realize Kishimoto didn't want to go over the regeneration again, right Shinobi no Kami?  Madara was obliterated by the Odama Rasenshuriken and while he regenerated, Hashirama pinned him with his Torii Great Gate of God. 


Its like when in early Naruto when we saw him create a Rasengan without a clone when he said he needed one up until chapter 519.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's true considering ORS isn't close to that because it's far above it, and thus it easily busts chibaku tensei unless the technique is almost fully formed.



Oodama Rasengan barely defeated Shouten Itachi. I have no idea where you're getting that it surpasses Bijuudama.



> Oh wait, I forgot you're the guy who said Sasori could block a FRS with little to no damage by using *hiruko*.



1. Irrelevant.

2. Ad hominem and genetic fallacy.

3. Sasori can block FRS with little damage using Hiruko.


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## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Oodama Rasengan barely defeated Shouten Itachi. I have no idea where you're getting that it surpasses Bijuudama.


How did you get that it 'barely' defeating shouten itachi?  The thread is about the super giant oodama Fuuton rasenshuriken, not oodama rasengan.




Nikushimi said:


> 1. Irrelevant.
> 
> 2. Ad hominem and genetic fallacy.


It's not guilty of either of those as it attacks your view on FRS which is directly related to the topic of this thread.



Nikushimi said:


> 3. Sasori can block FRS with little damage using Hiruko.


Based on me destroying that assertion the last time you brought it up?  Or maybe it's based on sakura's punch shattering it, the same one that white zetsus could survive and juubi spawn could lol at?  Maybe it's based on FRS being of similar strength to minato's rasengan?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> How did you get that it 'barely' defeating shouten itachi?  The thread is about the super giant oodama Fuuton rasenshuriken, not oodama rasengan.



I just assumed "ORS" stood for "Oodama Rasengan," which is why I kept saying "Oodama Rasengan" when referring to the Jutsu in question.



> It's not guilty of either of those as it attacks your view on FRS which is directly related to the topic of this thread.



1. Attacking the arguer rather than the argument is ad hominem, so yes, it's that.

2. My view on Hiruko's resistance to FRS is not related to my view on Oodama Rasengan since different Jutsu are involved, so it is both irrelevant and a genetic fallacy because you are criticizing the argument based on who it's coming from rather than any of its inherent qualities--and not simply based on who it's coming from, but a totally unrelated argument that person made.



> Based on me destroying that assertion the last time you brought it up?



Which evidently never happened, because I'm still making it.



> Or maybe it's based on sakura's punch shattering it, the same one that white zetsus could survive and juubi spawn could lol at?



They are elastic. Hiruko is not; it's brittle.



> Maybe it's based on FRS being of similar strength to minato's rasengan?



Not seeing the connection.


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## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I just assumed "ORS" stood for "Oodama Rasengan," which is why I kept saying "Oodama Rasengan" when referring to the Jutsu in question.


Okay, but what about it 'barely' defeating itachi?




Nikushimi said:


> 1. Attacking the arguer rather than the argument is ad hominem, so yes, it's that.


I attacked your view which is why I brought up the view that I didn't agree with as evidence for why your assertion isn't true.  If I had attacked you, I would have brought up no argument or reasoning to support the assertion that your view was incorrect.



Nikushimi said:


> 2. My view on Hiruko's resistance to FRS is not related to my view on Oodama Rasengan since different Jutsu are involved, so it is both irrelevant and a genetic fallacy because you are criticizing the argument based on who it's coming from rather than any of its inherent qualities--and not simply based on who it's coming from, but a totally unrelated argument that person made.


This is true, but only because you are talking about oodama rasengan, and not the rasengan in question in this thread.





Nikushimi said:


> Which never happened, because I'm still saying it.


The guy who believes 1 + 1 = 3 can say it till he dies, it doesn't mean his view is any truer than the guy who becomes convinced that 1 + 1 =/= 3.  





Nikushimi said:


> They are elastic. Hiruko is not; it's brittle.


So what are you asserting here?





Nikushimi said:


> Not seeing the connection.


It's interesting that you assert that I didn't thrash your argument, yet you can't even recall some of the major points we had in that argument.  Go back and reread our discussion from before.

I'll do the work for you.  In our discussion, you agreed that minato's rasengan would destroy hiruko and agreed that FRS is at least as powerful as 25+ SM Chou oodama rasengans.  Thus the only way you can take those two points as true and hold fast to hiruko protecting sasori from the attack is that you'd have to assert minato's rasengan isn't that much weaker than *this attack.*  When you argue your opponent into a corner that they have to assert things as bad as that, that's thrashing an argument in a nutshell.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Okay, but what about it 'barely' defeating itachi?



The Shouten's body was still intact.



> I attacked your view which is why I brought up the view that I didn't agree with as evidence for why your assertion isn't true.



Exactly. You committed a genetic fallacy by associating this argument with an unrelated one based on their common source, rather than addressing the argument at hand. You were trying to discredit me instead of refuting my argument, and you wound up committing a formal fallacy.



> If I had attacked you, I would have brought up no argument or reasoning to support the assertion that your view was incorrect.



You didn't. You brought up a completely unrelated argument and said "You're that guy who said," which has no bearing on this topic.



> This is true, but only because you are talking about oodama rasengan, and not the rasengan in question in this thread.



That's also unrelated to Hiruko.



> The guy who believes 1 + 1 = 3 can say it till he dies, it doesn't mean his view is any truer than the guy who becomes convinced that 1 + 1 =/= 3.



1 + 1 = 3 is abstractly and objectively falsifiable. You've yet to falsify Sasori surviving FRS with Hiruko. Why? Because it isn't falsifiable; Sasori has never faced the Jutsu or anything like it. Sure, Sakura's punch broke Hiruko, but it also did next to nothing to Sasori (and beside that, Hiruko's metallic tail was restrained, eliminating a potentially significant factor in the puppet's defense). Given that Sakura's punch took out a solid boulder the size of a house with just the surface area of her fist, it's nothing to sneeze at, either; FRS failed to do much to an unprotected Kakuzu, cellular damage aside.



> So what are you asserting here?



Hiruko's material does not bend or depress the way Zetsu and Juubi flesh does. When it exceeds capacity, it breaks.



> It's interesting that you assert that I didn't thrash your argument, yet you can't even recall some of the major points we had in that argument.



That's how memorable it was.



> Go back and reread our discussion from before.



Not particularly interested. If you have something to say, say it here. Otherwise, you care about this more than I do.


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## Chad (Dec 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Odama Rasenshuriken is _twice_ as large in the wind dome state compared to a standard Bijudama. It could potentially be several gigatons of power.



Hold your horses there bud, there isn't any confirmation that my calc was accepted.


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## Azula (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the same jutsu which couldnt beat an unprotected madara destroys CT which took RS, bijudama and yasaka magatama to destroy?




Edo tensei can only be beaten by sealing jutsus, last I checked frs doesn't seal

Two meteors failed to stop edo madara, his body got destroyed but he regenerated back up as if nothing had happened


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## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

Astral said:


> Hold your horses there bud, there isn't any confirmation that my calc was accepted.



He most likely doesn't care.

Calc Sage Jiraiya's kick as town-level and he will use it.


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## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Shouten's body was still intact.


Because rasengan doesn't deal internal damage.




Nikushimi said:


> Exactly. You committed a genetic fallacy by associating this argument with an unrelated one based on their common source, rather than addressing the argument at hand. You were trying to discredit me instead of refuting my argument, and you wound up committing a formal fallacy.


But it's only an unrelated argument if we are talking about oodama rasengan and not the rasengan in question in this thread.  If you were arguing about the rasengan in this thread, then it's dependent on arguments about FRS's power, and thus it's not a genetic fallacy nor an adhominem. 




Nikushimi said:


> You didn't. You brought up a completely unrelated argument and said "You're that guy who said," which has no bearing on this topic.


The topic is about COFRS which is a technique that is simply a much larger FRS.  Unless you believe that there is absolutely zero correlation between the power of FRS and COFRS, then it's not completely unrelated, and if you do believe that, then I'd like to ask you why you believe those two tech are unrelated.




Nikushimi said:


> That's also unrelated to Hiruko.


It's most definitely related to hiruko unless you believe that the power of FRS has absolutely no correlation to the power of COFRS.




Nikushimi said:


> 1 + 1 = 3 is abstractly and objectively falsifiable. You've yet to falsify Sasori surviving FRS with Hiruko. Why? Because it isn't falsifiable; Sasori has never faced the Jutsu or anything like it. Sure, Sakura's punch broke Hiruko, but it also did next to nothing to Sasori (and beside that, Hiruko's metallic tail was restrained, eliminating a potentially significant factor in the puppet's defense). Given that Sakura's punch took out a solid boulder the size of a house with just the surface area of her fist, it's nothing to sneeze at, either; FRS failed to do much to an unprotected Kakuzu, cellular damage aside.


Sure it's not falsifiable objectively, however in order to assert your argument to be true, you have to make ridiculous assumptions like FRS isn't much stronger than sakura's punch.  A normal rasengan would destroy that boulder that sakura punched, Minato's rasengan after going through obito, damaged the earth just as much or more than sakura directly hitting it.  So in order for your argument to be true, you'd have to believe that minato's or a normal rasengan are almost as powerful as a 50% FRS from naruto.

In addition to that, the FRS didn't fail to do much to an unprotected kakuzu, it destroyed all of his threads, destroyed all of his hearts, and severed the chakra network in every cell of his body.  Considering the needles hit EVERY cell in his body, the only reason he wasn't disintegrated by the attack was that the needles were simply not numerous enough to do, not that they lacked the penetrating power or anything. Had sakura punched kakuzu, he wouldn't have even lost a single heart.  It also completely vaporized all the earth it came into contact with which means it's exponentially more powerful than sakura's punch which merely causes earth disruption.  

Finally, that's just a 50% base FRS, not a completed SM FRS.




Nikushimi said:


> Hiruko's material does not bend or depress the way Zetsu and Juubi flesh does. When it exceeds capacity, it breaks.


And now going back to the argument at hand, what are you trying to assert by saying that?




Nikushimi said:


> That's how memorable it was.


I know, your argument got thrashed so bad you tried to erase it from your memory.




Nikushimi said:


> Not particularly interested. If you have something to say, say it here. Otherwise, you care about this more than I do.


If you aren't willing to go the distance, then don't make irresponsible statements.  Debate honestly, and the discussions will be considerably shorter

Oh yeah, you also forgot to address this:

I'll do the work for you.  In our discussion, you agreed that minato's rasengan would destroy hiruko and agreed that FRS is at least as powerful as 25+ SM Chou oodama rasengans.  Thus the only way you can take those two points as true and hold fast to hiruko protecting sasori from the attack is that you'd have to assert minato's rasengan isn't that much weaker than *this attack.*  When you argue your opponent into a corner that they have to assert things as bad as that, that's thrashing an argument in a nutshell.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Because rasengan doesn't deal internal damage.



Because Bijuudama would not leave a body.



> But it's only an unrelated argument if we are talking about oodama rasengan and not the rasengan in question in this thread.



It's unrelated in both cases.



> If you were arguing about the rasengan in this thread,



Which I wasn't.



> then it's dependent on arguments about FRS's power, and thus it's not a genetic fallacy nor an adhominem.



It is both, because Hiruko's durability has no bearing here.



> The topic is about COFRS which is a technique that is simply a much larger FRS.  Unless you believe that there is absolutely zero correlation between the power of FRS and COFRS, then it's not completely unrelated, and if you do believe that, then I'd like to ask you why you believe those two tech are unrelated.



Hiruko and any arguments pertaining to it are unrelated.



> It's most definitely related to hiruko unless you believe that the power of FRS has absolutely no correlation to the power of COFRS.



Neither is dependent on Hiruko. Thus, not relevant.



> Sure it's not falsifiable objectively, however in order to assert your argument to be true, you have to make ridiculous assumptions like FRS isn't much stronger than sakura's punch.



It's not about being stronger than Sakura's punch; it's about hitting harder than Sakura's punch and then still doing enough damage to destroy the body that Sakura could barely put a scratch on.



> A normal rasengan would destroy that boulder that sakura punched, Minato's rasengan after going through obito, damaged the earth just as much or more than sakura directly hitting it.



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About the same surface area--the main differences being that Sakura destroyed a single, solid boulder and her fist doesn't explode the way Rasengan does.



> So in order for your argument to be true, you'd have to believe that minato's or a normal rasengan are almost as powerful as a 50% FRS from naruto.



No, because the force with which Sakura throws a punch matches the total explosive yield of that Rasengan (or maybe exceeds it)...only there's no explosion, so 100% of it passes through the target at the point of contact.



> In addition to that, the FRS didn't fail to do much to an unprotected kakuzu, it destroyed all of his threads, destroyed all of his hearts, and severed the chakra network in every cell of his body.  Considering the needles hit EVERY cell in his body, the only reason he wasn't disintegrated by the attack was that the needles were simply not numerous enough to do, not that they lacked the penetrating power or anything.



The point is that his body was not ripped apart by the force.

Sasori's not going to give a shit if Hiruko takes damage on a cellular level.



> Had sakura punched kakuzu, he wouldn't have even lost a single heart.  It also completely vaporized all the earth it came into contact with which means it's exponentially more powerful than sakura's punch which merely causes earth disruption.



The key difference being that all of that energy gets wasted pushing dirt aside.



> And now going back to the argument at hand, what are you trying to assert by saying that?



Hiruko is more durable than Zetsu and mini-Juubis, but it's also easier to break because it doesn't have the same elastic property as their skin (which is why they don't break into a million pieces when they get hit that hard).



> I know, your argument got thrashed so bad you tried to erase it from your memory.



Or you're just not nearly as influential as you think you are, and what you're saying is basically psychotic self-inflation.



> If you aren't willing to go the distance, then don't make irresponsible statements.



I don't.

You're the one who opened this can of worms for no apparent reason. And now you're complaining about it.

I didn't choose to bring up Hiruko vs. FRS; you did. Now you don't like it. Well, that's your fault.



> Debate honestly, and the discussions will be considerably shorter



Nothing I've said here has been dishonest.



> Oh yeah, you also forgot to address this:
> 
> I'll do the work for you.  In our discussion, you agreed that minato's rasengan would destroy hiruko and agreed that FRS is at least as powerful as 25+ SM Chou oodama rasengans.  Thus the only way you can take those two points as true and hold fast to hiruko protecting sasori from the attack is that you'd have to assert minato's rasengan isn't that much weaker than *this attack.*  When you argue your opponent into a corner that they have to assert things as bad as that, that's thrashing an argument in a nutshell.



FRS is not as powerful as 25+ CORs. Minato's Rasengan is not anywhere near as strong as FRS in terms of explosive yield.

However, Sakura's punch is not an explosive attack, so it doesn't waste energy the way these Jutsu do.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

Since you're evidently struggling with the concept, I'll explain it more simply:

Let's say Sakura's punch imparts force equivalent to the total yield of Minato's Rasengan.

It hits Hiruko, breaks it apart.

Great.

But there are still pieces of Hiruko that her punch didn't break.

For an attack like FRS to go through Hiruko, it has to deal damage equivalent to Sakura's punch (i.e., Minato's Rasengan) across every square inch of its point of contact, and then across the puppet's entire surface when it detonates.

Mind you, this thing's forward momentum is only what Sage Naruto can impart by throwing it. So it effectively hits with the force of Sage Naruto throwing a bladed shuriken and then explodes, losing most of its yield to the ether.

So let me reiterate that it takes the entire yield of Minato's Rasengan on the area of Sakura's fist to break Hiruko. But FRS is not confined to the area of Sakura's fist, and much of the explosive force will be lost.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Because Bijuudama would not leave a body.


Strawman 101.  

You asserted that it barely killed itachi, bijuudama not leaving a body has absolutely nothing to do with backing up your assertion.




Nikushimi said:


> It's unrelated in both cases.


That's an assertion, I've explained why it is related in one of those cases.  Unless you go back and defend your assertion with an argument, then it's a concession on your part.



Nikushimi said:


> It is both, because Hiruko's durability has no bearing here.
> I've explicitly explained why that's absolutely not the case.  Unless you go back and refute that explanation then its a concession on your part.
> 
> 
> ...


I've explicitly explained why that's absolutely not the case.  Unless you go back and refute that explanation then its a concession on your part.



Nikushimi said:


> It's not about being stronger than Sakura's punch; it's about hitting harder than Sakura's punch and then still doing enough damage to destroy the body that Sakura could barely put a scratch on.


And the only way that FRS hits hiruko and barely puts a scratch on Sasori is if it's comparable in power to Sakura's punch.  Sakura destroyed both hiruko and sasori's body with a single punch to each.  

The only way your assertion that Hiruko protects sasori from the bulk of the damage is that her punch is comparable in power to it.




Nikushimi said:


> a sea of snakes
> 
> a sea of snakes
> 
> ...


The rasengan didn't even hit the ground directly, it had to go through obito and the ground got messed up as a mere side effect.  

Why did you use her punch vs boulder as an example? * Why not her punch vs the earth?* And in that case, Minato's rasengan does more damage to it.

So it's clear that had minato's rasengan is more powerful than sakura's punches since they yield similar destruction despite minato's having to go through an actual enemy first.



Nikushimi said:


> No, because the force with which Sakura throws a punch matches the total explosive yield of that Rasengan (or maybe exceeds it)...only there's no explosion, so 100% of it passes through the target at the point of contact.


No, the side affect of a rasengan hitting a target > the punches that sakura throws, and the full power of the rasengan had to pass through its target in order to do its damage to the ground.  



Nikushimi said:


> The point is that his body was not ripped apart by the force.
> 
> Sasori's not going to give a shit if Hiruko takes damage on a cellular level.


Unless you are arguing that Hiruko is as durable as Kakuzu with three lives, that's completely irrelevant. 




Nikushimi said:


> The key difference being that all of that energy gets wasted pushing dirt aside.


Concessionary dishonesty as FRS has explicitly shown to disintegrate the GROUND that it hits, not merely push it aside, and it shows that the damage density of the FRS is more powerful than things like C2 considering the perfectly spherical crater it makes.  



Nikushimi said:


> *Hiruko is more durable than Zetsu and mini-Juubis,* but it's also easier to break because it doesn't have the same elastic property as their skin (which is why they don't break into a million pieces when they get hit that hard).


What durability feat is the bolded based on?




Nikushimi said:


> Or you're just not nearly as influential as you think you are, and what you're saying is basically psychotic self-inflation.


Considering how I've made you assert ridiculous things like Minato's rasengan is comparable in power to a FRS, it's clear to anyone looking at our discussion with objectivity that it's not self-inflation on my part, rather it's your argument getting thrashed by being forced to assert the blatantly false as true.




Nikushimi said:


> I don't.
> 
> You're the one who opened this can of worms for no apparent reason. And now you're complaining about it.
> 
> I didn't choose to bring up Hiruko vs. FRS; you did. Now you don't like it. Well, that's your fault.


Hiruko being able to allow Sasori to escape FRS with little to no damage is the irresponsible statement, obviously anyone who's trying to look at the manga with even a shred of objectivity would not agree with that when the puppet gets destroyed by a single punch from sakura.  




Nikushimi said:


> *FRS is not as powerful as 25+ CORs.* Minato's Rasengan is not anywhere near as strong as FRS in terms of explosive yield.


Bolded is a concession on your part as you already know my argument that proves the FRS is more powerful than SM Chou oodama rasengan barrage.  



Nikushimi said:


> However, Sakura's punch is not an explosive attack, so it doesn't waste energy the way these Jutsu do.


Which is why it doesn't damage juubi spawn or white zetsu even close to the amount of the more wasteful attacks like rasengans and FRS?



Nikushimi said:


> Since you're evidently struggling with the concept, I'll explain it more simply:
> 
> Let's say Sakura's punch imparts force equivalent to the total yield of Minato's Rasengan.
> 
> ...


That's completely irrelevant as we've seen in the kurama fight that the wind sphere of a FRS is much more damage dense than that of the ball of a senpou rasengan.  So if getting hit by minato's rasengan destroys hiruko, then how is it going to protect sasori from a rasengan multiple times larger than itself, let alone a FRS?

White zetsu and the juubilings have taken her punches directly yet they survive while juubito and obito sustain far more damage from rasengan.  Not only that the damage that minato and naruto's rasengans have done to the earth that are comparable to sakura's punches is merely the resulting force that gets through the rasengan and hits the target, so it's not this explosive force it's pure impact force and not even the full power of the rasengans at that.

Finally, I'd like to add that your entire argument isn't even a positive argument.  All it is is an argument of skepticism as you provide no argument for why getting hit with sakura's punch or a minato rasengan is actually more damaging than getting hit with the FRS, you've only argued that the FRS spreads out its damage across a greater AoE, thus it being a more powerful overall doesn't necessarily mean it does more damage to a single entity than a less powerful attack.  Same with the elasticity argument.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize Kishimoto didn't want to go over the regeneration again, right Shinobi no Kami?


 you must have talked to kishi if you know this.


> Madara was obliterated by the Odama Rasenshuriken and while he regenerated, Hashirama pinned him with his Torii Great Gate of God.


hashirama flat out stated that he would seal madara if an opening was created by narutos jutsu.  hashirama saying that narutos jutsu was too weak to faze madara=no regeneration occured.



> Its like when in early Naruto when we saw him create a Rasengan without a clone when he said he needed one up until chapter 519.


[/QUOTE]
he only made a rasengan without a clone when he used a kyuubi chakra cloak.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you must have talked to kishi if you know this.


Since its obvious? You honestly believe that Edo Madara was undamaged by it when a _normal_ Futon: Rasenshuriken would have defeated him if not for his Rinnegan by his own words?



> hashirama flat out stated that he would seal madara if an opening was created by narutos jutsu.  hashirama saying that narutos jutsu was too weak to faze madara=no regeneration occured.


Hashirama flat out said that Naruto's jutsu allowed them to get to that point. It was never said to be 'weak'. And hell, off screen regeneration happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Oh wait, you believe Hashirama and Madara never needed to regenerate from Jubito's quadruple Bijudama!

Madara was obliterated. As he regenerated Hashirama applied the Great Gate of God. That's what happened. Unless you believe Odama Rasenshuriken is weaker than Tsunade's punches?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2013)

Portrayal alone (you can even say feats if you want) put the Bijuu Dama's destructive capabilities far above FRS. Naruto wouldn't go through the trouble to learn a jutsu weaker than FRS.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Portrayal alone (you can even say feats if you want) put the Bijuu Dama's destructive capabilities far above FRS. Naruto wouldn't go through the trouble to learn a jutsu weaker than FRS.



is this directed at me?  Because my earlier responses to you have pretty much addressed what you've just said and how it's not supported by the manga.

And sure, with Sandaime raikage, you could argue that portayal a random bijuudamas destructive capabilities are far above FRS, however that's got nothing to do with a FRS hundreds of times larger than a normal one.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Strawman 101.



That isn't what a strawman is.

Taking an opponent's argument and boiling it down to an oversimplified and easily-assailable concept is a strawman. Like what you did with the FRS>25 COR example.



> You asserted that it barely killed itachi, bijuudama not leaving a body has absolutely nothing to do with backing up your assertion.



Let me clarify what I meant:

It barely killed Shouten Itachi relative to what Bijuudama would do.

The initial comparison (I had mistakenly assumed) was between Oodama Rasengan and Bijuudama.



> That's an assertion, I've explained why it is related in one of those cases.  Unless you go back and defend your assertion with an argument, then it's a concession on your part.



Hiruko is totally unrelated to what's being discussed here; I'm under no obligation to humor your genetic fallacy. In spite of that, we're already in the process of arguing about Hiruko's durability for some reason, anyway.



> I've explicitly explained why that's absolutely not the case.  Unless you go back and refute that explanation then its a concession on your part.



Your explanation was unsatisfactory because you still haven't justified what my position on Hiruko vs. FRS has to do with my position on Oodama Rasengan or OFRS vs. Bijuudama.

And I'm telling you now that you're walking down a dead-end road, because there is no relationship. It's completely irrelevant; you're only bringing it up because you want to attack my credibility instead of my argument. Don't confuse the two.



> And the only way that FRS hits hiruko and barely puts a scratch on Sasori is if it's comparable in power to Sakura's punch.



Pound-for-pound, yes. If you took Sakura's punch and multiplied it to encompass the volume of FRS's explosion, it might actually have a higher yield than FRS.



> Sakura destroyed both hiruko and sasori's body with a single punch to each.



Sakura punched Sasori twice. The first hit did nothing but segment his body at the removable joints. The second hit put a crack in his cheek.



> The only way your assertion that Hiruko protects sasori from the bulk of the damage is that her punch is comparable in power to it.



It doesn't, because of the difference in the nature of the two attacks. Sakura's fist is smaller than FRS, so all the force gets concentrated on that area. There's also no explosion, so none (well, most) of the force is not lost.

Again, you are confusing total yield with the force that is actually transferred to the target.



> The rasengan didn't even hit the ground directly, it had to go through obito and the ground got messed up as a mere side effect.



That's what happens. Force passes through objects.

Ever played pool?

Sure, some force is lost upon initial contact. But it's not that significant.



> Why did you use her punch vs boulder as an example? * Why not her punch vs the earth?* And in that case, Minato's rasengan does more damage to it.



The boulder serves as a high-end feat. It's that simple.

Of course, the apparent difference isn't significant either way, so it doesn't really change the argument.



> So it's clear that had minato's rasengan is more powerful than sakura's punches since they yield similar destruction despite minato's having to go through an actual enemy first.





No, that's not how it works.

Rasengan did about as much damage to the surrounding environment through Obito's body as it would've otherwise. The only difference would've been at the point of contact, where Rasengan would've stripped away any bare ground. Obito's body was basically a projectile.



> No, the side affect of a rasengan hitting a target > the punches that sakura throws, and the full power of the rasengan had to pass through its target in order to do its damage to the ground.



And a Rasengan would break Hiruko, but it still wouldn't destroy all of Hiruko and also take out Sasori. Like Sakura's punch, it would make a hole at the point where it makes contact. Then it would explode and blow the pieces apart. 



> Unless you are arguing that Hiruko is as durable as Kakuzu with three lives, that's completely irrelevant.



I would argue that Hiruko is more durable than Kakuzu without Domu.



> Concessionary dishonesty as FRS has explicitly shown to disintegrate the GROUND that it hits, not merely push it aside,



"Disintegrate" is just another word for pushing it aside, albeit in very small bits.



> and it shows that the damage density of the FRS is more powerful than things like C2 considering the perfectly spherical crater it makes.



When did Deidara come into this?



> What durability feat is the bolded based on?



Hiruko can tank kunai. Zetsu can't.



> Considering how I've made you assert ridiculous things like Minato's rasengan is comparable in power to a FRS, it's clear to anyone looking at our discussion with objectivity that it's not self-inflation on my part, rather it's your argument getting thrashed by being forced to assert the blatantly false as true.



Actually, it's your own misunderstanding.

I never said Minato's Rasengan was comparable in power to FRS. FRS has a much higher yield.

But in terms of the force they impart on contact, they are about the same. FRS is sharper, so it cuts. When they blow up, FRS's explosion is bigger and more powerful.

What's important here is the force they impart on contact, which is less than that of Sakura's punch. When they explode and release their energy, the result is force comparable to Sakura's punch spread out over a larger area.

So the result is that Minato's Rasengan shatters Hiruko like Sakura's punch did while FRS turns it to dust, but all three ultimately fail to take out Sasori, whose body is more durable.



> Hiruko being able to allow Sasori to escape FRS with little to no damage is the irresponsible statement, obviously anyone who's trying to look at the manga with even a shred of objectivity would not agree with that when the puppet gets destroyed by a single punch from sakura.



That's because most people just look at the size and lazily assume FRS will just blow Sasori up, without considering that Sakura is generating tonnage on par with a Rasengan using physical contact alone.



> Bolded is a concession on your part as you already know my argument that proves the FRS is more powerful than SM Chou oodama rasengan barrage.



It's not a concession because I didn't concede anything; I explicitly said FRS is not more powerful than 25 CORs. I'm disagreeing with you.



> Which is why it doesn't damage juubi spawn or white zetsu even close to the amount of the more wasteful attacks like rasengans and FRS?



That's because they have inferior durability to Hiruko, but are not as brittle.



> That's completely irrelevant as we've seen in the kurama fight that the wind sphere of a FRS is much more damage dense than that of the ball of a senpou rasengan.  So if getting hit by minato's rasengan destroys hiruko, then how is it going to protect sasori from a rasengan multiple times larger than itself, let alone a FRS?



Because Minato's Rasengan only puts a hole in Hiruko and blows the pieces apart. FRS doesn't hit much harder than that, even though the explosion it produces afterward is much stronger. The advantage of FRS is that it cuts, but cutting through Sasori won't hurt him.



> White zetsu and the juubilings have taken her punches directly yet they survive while juubito and obito sustain far more damage from rasengan.



Already addressed this.



> Not only that the damage that minato and naruto's rasengans have done to the earth that are comparable to sakura's punches is merely the resulting force that gets through the rasengan and hits the target, so it's not this explosive force it's pure impact force and not even the full power of the rasengans at that.



Already addressed this.



> Finally, I'd like to add that your entire argument isn't even a positive argument.  All it is is an argument of skepticism as you provide no argument for why getting hit with sakura's punch or a minato rasengan is actually more damaging than getting hit with the FRS, you've only argued that the FRS spreads out its damage across a greater AoE, thus it being a more powerful overall doesn't necessarily mean it does more damage to a single entity than a less powerful attack.  Same with the elasticity argument.



You say I provide no argument and then proceed to summarize the argument I provided. I'm not sure what to say to that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since its obvious? You honestly believe that Edo Madara was undamaged by it when a _normal_ Futon: Rasenshuriken would have defeated him if not for his Rinnegan by his own words?



I can't believe I'm saying this, but SSM12 is right.

Madara couldn't use Susano'o and he couldn't use Fujutsu Kyuin because of Hashirama's chakra-sapping Mokuton. There's no way he could've protected himself from that massive FRS, and the very next panel has Hashirama binding him with a seal.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hiruko is totally unrelated to what's being discussed here; I'm under no obligation to humor your genetic fallacy. In spite of that, we're already in the process of arguing about Hiruko's durability for some reason, anyway.


Then you're guilty of ignoring my arguments that show why hiruko vs FRS is in no way a genetic fallacy and is very much relevant to discussing the power of a FRS which is what the thread's conclusion is contingent upon.



Nikushimi said:


> Your explanation was unsatisfactory because you still haven't justified what my position on Hiruko vs. FRS has to do with my position on Oodama Rasengan or OFRS vs. Bijuudama.


Concession accepted again as I blatantly did that, on multiple occasions, you saying I didn't would be you ignoring my argument and an ignored argument is a conceded one.  'unsatisfactory' and 'haven't justified' are also subjective standards of evidence that anyone can peg any argument with in order to throw it out the window, and so saying my argument hasn't fullufilled these unclaimed personal burdens of proof is worthless.



Nikushimi said:


> And I'm telling you now that you're walking down a dead-end road, because there is no relationship. It's completely irrelevant; you're only bringing it up because you want to attack my credibility instead of my argument. Don't confuse the two.


I've showed countless times that the relationship is obvious: that if you believe FRS isn't powerful enough to destroy hiruko and sasori inside of it, then its obviously going to affect how you view how powerful a larger FRS is going to fair in busting a technique.




Nikushimi said:


> Pound-for-pound, yes. If you took Sakura's punch and multiplied it to encompass the volume of FRS's explosion, it might actually have a higher yield than FRS.


Based on.......?




Nikushimi said:


> Sakura punched Sasori twice. The first hit did nothing but segment his body at the removable joints. The second hit put a crack in his cheek.


his body was not only segmented at the removable joints, in addition to that, if it was, then it didn't even take the full force of the punch.  Finally, the second obviously wasn't a full powered punch considering it didn't remove any joints like the first.




Nikushimi said:


> That's what happens. Force passes through objects.
> 
> Ever played pool?
> 
> Sure, some force is lost upon initial contact. But it's not that significant.


The force lost upon initial contact is very significant since the rasengan unlike the punch isn't pure downward force, it's either an explosive force or a force that displaced by grinding up the internal organs.  




Nikushimi said:


> The boulder serves as a high-end feat. It's that simple.


no it doesn't, disturbing the ground on that level is a higher feat than crumbling a boulder.  Just look at how much Ei disturbs the ground when he slams sasuke into it.



Nikushimi said:


> No, that's not how it works.
> 
> Rasengan did about as much damage to the surrounding environment through Obito's body as it would've otherwise. The only difference would've been at the point of contact, where Rasengan would've stripped away any bare ground. Obito's body was basically a projectile.


once again, that's only true if the rasengan was pure downward force or was not an explosion.  




Nikushimi said:


> I would argue that Hiruko is more durable than Kakuzu without Domu.


would you like to support that with some kind of evidence?




Nikushimi said:


> "Disintegrate" is just another word for pushing it aside, albeit in very small bits.


So human path was 'pushed aside' by FRS?  




Nikushimi said:


> When did Deidara come into this?


Considering 'when did deidara come into this' is in no way some kind of counterargument to the logic of what I've just posted, then I'm guessing you concede that FRS is far more concentrated than things like C2.



Nikushimi said:


> Hiruko can tank kunai. Zetsu can't.


Hiruko's tail can tank kunai, did sakura smash its tail?  




Nikushimi said:


> Actually, it's your own misunderstanding.
> 
> I never said Minato's Rasengan was comparable in power to FRS. FRS has a much higher yield.
> 
> ...


The bolded is an assertion, yet none of what you typed has backed up that assertion.  The only thing you've shown is that FRS having an overall more powerful yield does not necessarily mean it damages a singular target more, yet no evidence is given to support that positive assertion that that is in fact the case here. 

If Kakuzu was hit by Minato's rasengan, would he lose 2 hearts and be left on the brink of death?  Why would naruto even invent FRS and use it on kakuzu if he could accomplish more with just an oodama rasengan?




Nikushimi said:


> That's because most people just look at the size and lazily assume FRS will just blow Sasori up, without considering that Sakura is generating tonnage on par with a Rasengan using physical contact alone.


Except I've shown that she can't be generating a tonnage on par with rasengan, on the other hand it would be you who assumes without reason that sakura's punch would be as damage dense as the portion of FRS that hits hiruko.




Nikushimi said:


> It's not a concession because I didn't concede anything; I explicitly said FRS is not more powerful than 25 CORs. I'm disagreeing with you.


Whenever you disagree with an argument, yet provide no reasoning for your disagreement, but rather just assert that the opposition's argument is wrong, then that is you tacitly conceding the argument as an argument supported by no reasoning is simply an assertion and holds no water. 

It's simple, if you can't even counter the points of an argument that you don't agree with, then you've got no reason to disagree with it then it's you saying that 'I have no reason to disagree with the argument given' which is a concession.




Nikushimi said:


> That's because they have inferior durability to Hiruko, but are not as brittle.


based on..... zetsu not dieing after taking 2 punches? A juubi clone not even being phased by it?




Nikushimi said:


> Because Minato's Rasengan only puts a hole in Hiruko and blows the pieces apart. *FRS doesn't hit much harder than that,* even though the explosion it produces afterward is much stronger. The advantage of FRS is that it cuts, but cutting through Sasori won't hurt him.


The bolded is an assertion, please back up that assertion with an argument, else it's a concession.  FRS only cuts when it's in shuriken form, and it cutting through the juubi's tails completely and utterly falsifies your implication that it's merely a rasengan that cuts.  When FRS explodes into the wind sphere, it no longer cuts, it *pierces  * with so many needles it ends up vaporizing the target.

Finally, even if FRS's impact does hit much harder than minato's rasengan, it still kills sasori as it will destroy hiruko on contact (like minato's rasengan) and then will explode into the wind sphere which an unprotected sasori will take. 



Nikushimi said:


> You say I provide no argument and then proceed to summarize the argument I provided. I'm not sure what to say to that.


Another strawman.  I said you provided no *POSITIVE* argument and then go to summarize why your argument isn't a positive one.  All you've typed is that my argument isn't necessarily true, however you simply pressupose that minato's or sakura's punch is just as powerful or as damage dense as a FRS's explosion without bringing up any kind of evidence to support it.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since its obvious? You honestly believe that Edo Madara was undamaged by it when a _normal_ Futon: Rasenshuriken would have defeated him if not for his Rinnegan by his own words?


edo madara getting hit by the normal frs wouldve given the alliance more time to land attacks on him. thats about it. 




> Hashirama flat out said that Naruto's jutsu allowed them to get to that point. It was never said to be 'weak'. And hell, off screen regeneration happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Oh wait, you believe Hashirama and Madara never needed to regenerate from Jubito's quadruple Bijudama!


yup, PS and mokujin were destroyed by the juubidamas but hashirama and madara survived with minimal damage.


> Madara was obliterated. As he regenerated Hashirama applied the Great Gate of God. That's what happened. Unless you believe Odama Rasenshuriken is weaker than Tsunade's punches?


if madara got obliterated then hashirama wouldve sealed him like he said he would. instead, he stated that narutos jutsu couldnt bring him down and he at least managed to immobilize him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> edo madara getting hit by the normal frs wouldve given the alliance more time to land attacks on him. thats about it.


He was about to be hit and obliterated. Hence why he said 'That's a bit too much...'




> yup, PS and mokujin were destroyed by the juubidamas but hashirama and madara survived with minimal damage.


...and this is when you shouldn't be taken seriously. You honestly claim Hashirama and Madara weren't obliterated and then regenerated after the quadruple Bijudama? 


> if madara got obliterated then hashirama wouldve sealed him like he said he would. instead, he stated that narutos jutsu couldnt bring him down and he at least managed to immobilize him.


Senpō: Myōjinmon IS his sealing technique! And Madara was obliterated, so were the Mokuton Ryu that were pinning him down. How much more obvious do you need to get? Everything there was obliterated, which is why Hashirama had to get out of range of the detonation. He then trapped Madara in Senpō: Myōjinmon which is his sealing technique.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He was about to be hit and obliterated. Hence why he said 'That's a bit too much...'



 extrapolation of panel aka fanfiction.



> ...and this is when you shouldn't be taken seriously. You honestly claim Hashirama and Madara weren't obliterated and then regenerated after the quadruple Bijudama?


post the panel of them regenerating to the extent that you claim.


> Senpō: Myōjinmon IS his sealing technique! And Madara was obliterated, so were the Mokuton Ryu that were pinning him down. How much more obvious do you need to get? Everything there was obliterated, which is why Hashirama had to get out of range of the detonation. He then trapped Madara in Senpō: Myōjinmon which is his sealing technique.


 and this is where you stop getting taken seriously.

myoujinmon is a seal, not a sealing jutsu. if what you said is true, then hashirama wouldnt have said to wait for the shinobi to seal madara.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> extrapolation of panel aka fanfiction.


Manga > Your fanfiction. Madara's own words say a single FRS is too much.



> post the panel of them regenerating to the extent that you claim.


Its unneeded. The attack is so powerful they are outright obliterated by it and Kishimoto didn't feel the need to draw regeneration. Neither Hashirama or Madara are powerful enough to survive four Juubi caliber Bijudama going off at the same time and you fucking know it.


> and this is where you stop getting taken seriously.
> 
> myoujinmon is a seal, not a sealing jutsu. if what you said is true, then hashirama wouldnt have said to wait for the shinobi to seal madara.


You were saying that Hashirama could seal him himself. Not only that, EVERYHTING THERE WAS OBLITERATED. WHy would Madara not have been? Prove that?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Manga > Your fanfiction. Madara's own words say a single FRS is too much.


manga>your fanfiction. a stronger frs was already tanked.



> *Its unneeded.* The attack is so powerful they are outright obliterated by it and Kishimoto didn't feel the need to draw regeneration. Neither Hashirama or Madara are powerful enough to survive four Juubi caliber Bijudama going off at the same time and you fucking know it.


concession accepted. 

"its juubi scale so they cant survive" 
thats an awfully poor argument.


> You were saying that Hashirama could seal him himself. Not only that, EVERYHTING THERE WAS OBLITERATED. WHy would Madara not have been? Prove that?


hashirama had the myoujinmon on madara and had to wait for someone else to seal him since narutos jutsu wasnt enough to finish him off.

you're asking me why madara wasnt obliterated? ask kishimoto. he is the one that made a joke out of chou odama frs.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> manga>your fanfiction. a stronger frs was already tanked.


There was no fucking tanking and you fucking know it! Everything there was obliterated by the Odama Rasenshuriken. No one said Madara tanked it! God are you...grrr...



> concession accepted.
> 
> "its juubi scale so they cant survive"
> thats an awfully poor argument.


No, it isn't. The Juubi's Bijudama are far more powerful than anything they have shown to survive. You claim they can? Then why are they damaged by weaker attacks? 


> hashirama had the myoujinmon on madara and had to wait for someone else to seal him since narutos jutsu wasnt enough to finish him off.




Odama Rasenshuriken impacts while Madara is restrained by Mokuton Ryu. Scene switches to the Biju. Then Madara has Myojinmon on him. Lots of missing scenes there. Why did no one say Madara tanked it huh?



> you're asking me why madara wasnt obliterated? ask kishimoto. he is the one that made a joke out of chou odama frs.


You do realize he does al ot of things OFF FUCKING PANEL?


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 1, 2014)

I believe ueharakk brought this up, but it's possible and I would think probable, that once the Wood Dragon was destroyed, Madara absorbed the rest of the damage with Preta Path.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 1, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> I believe ueharakk brought this up, but it's possible and I would think probable, that once the Wood Dragon was destroyed, Madara absorbed the rest of the damage with Preta Path.


Madara's absorption was canceled. He couldn't absorb anything. He was destroyed and regenerated. Its as simple as that.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara's absorption was canceled. He couldn't absorb anything. He was destroyed and regenerated. Its as simple as that.



The Wood Dragon was destroyed, so at some point, it was feasible for Madara to have absorbed the rest of the FRS after he had taken some damage from it. It was blatantly stated that the Jutsu was unable to defeat Madara but gave him enough damage for Hashirama to immobilize him with Myoujinmon. Which means he didn't get destroyed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 1, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The Wood Dragon was destroyed, so at some point, it was feasible for Madara to have absorbed the rest of the FRS after he had taken some damage from it. It was blatantly stated that the Jutsu was unable to defeat Madara but gave him enough damage for Hashirama to immobilize him with Myoujinmon. Which means he didn't get destroyed.


The only reason why the jutsu was unable to beat Madara was because it wasn't a Fuinjutsu. Madara's body was blown apart and as it was regenerating Myojinmon immobilized him. Preta Path doesn't work after the attack has ALREADY hit as well, Sephiroth.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2014)

Hashirama said that Naruto's attack didn't stop Madara for a reason. Whether Madara sent a Katon its way, or absorbed it is up to you. Unless you want to argue that he tanked it.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *The only reason why the jutsu was unable to beat Madara was because it wasn't a Fuinjutsu.* Madara's body was blown apart and as it was regenerating Myojinmon immobilized him. Preta Path doesn't work after the attack has ALREADY hit as well, Sephiroth.



If that was the case then the whole statement would have been pointless. As Munboy said above, there was a reason why Hashirama said it.

Also, Pain absorbed Senpo Chou Odama Rasengan after he had been hit. Why would you think it can't work after he has been hit? Preta Path also worked on Gaara's sand when the Rasen-Shuriken was thrown at him. He absorbed the Chakra out of Gaara's sand while it was latched on to him. Nagato also activated Preta Path after he was hit by Bee's Lariat. I fail to see why he can't activate Preta Path at any time so long as he is conscious.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There was no fucking tanking and you fucking know it! Everything there was obliterated by the Odama Rasenshuriken. *No one said Madara tanked it!* God are you...grrr...


 hashirama said that.



> No, it isn't. The Juubi's Bijudama are far more powerful than anything they have shown to survive. You claim they can? Then why are they damaged by weaker attacks?


they survived the juubidamas so you cant really say that its beyond what they can survive.


> Odama Rasenshuriken impacts while Madara is restrained by Mokuton Ryu. Scene switches to the Biju. Then Madara has Myojinmon on him. Lots of missing scenes there. Why did no one say Madara tanked it huh?


hashirama already said that madara tanked it, hence why he wasnt sealed directly after the frs hit.



> You do realize he does alot of things OFF FUCKING PANEL?


anything that happens off panel is cleared up by statements.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 1, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashirama said that.


Except Hashirama never said that. He said Naruto's jutsu wasn't enough to put him down, but it was enough to give him the opening. Madara isn't durable enough to tank a Futon: Rasenshuriken by his own admission, claiming he can do the larger variant is just plain false.



> they survived the juubidamas so you cant really say that its beyond what they can survive.


No, they were obliterated by the Juubidama's. 



> hashirama already said that madara tanked it, hence why he wasnt sealed directly after the frs hit.


Lying really doesn't help your case. Hashirama never said Madara tanked it. Not only that we can infer from the attacks that HAVE damaged Madara that there was no way he could have tanked it. 



> anything that happens off panel is cleared up by statements.


There is no 'clearing up'. All Hashirama said it wasn't enough to fully defeat Madara. That's it. You assume Madara just outright tanked it like assuming he and Hashirama tanked four Juubidama's. You don't even realize how stupidly ridiculous that sounds? Oh wait, you're just posting to get a rise out of people.



Master Sephiroth said:


> If that was the case then the whole statement would have been pointless. As Munboy said above, there was a reason why Hashirama said it.
> 
> Also, Pain absorbed Senpo Chou Odama Rasengan after he had been hit. Why would you think it can't work after he has been hit? Preta Path also worked on Gaara's sand when the Rasen-Shuriken was thrown at him. He absorbed the Chakra out of Gaara's sand while it was latched on to him. Nagato also activated Preta Path after he was hit by Bee's Lariat. I fail to see why he can't activate Preta Path at any time so long as he is conscious.


Its just that Preta Path seems useless while in the wind dome. You're already being pelted by millions of tiny futon blades.

The only person who could outright tank a FRS as Kishimoto established was the Sandaime Raikage, Shinobi no Kami. Madara didn't. Nor did he and Hashirama tank the four Juubi Bijudama's.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its just that Preta Path seems useless while in the wind dome. You're already being pelted by millions of tiny futon blades.




Yeah, but Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu. FRS is Ninjutsu. I don't see how it seems useless inside it. Madara would have only had to tank part of the explosion of FRS until the Wood Dragon was completely destroyed. I've already provided examples of people using Preta Path after being hit/during getting hit. FRS isn't a magical exception for unknown reasons.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 1, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah, but Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu. FRS is Ninjutsu. I don't see how it seems useless inside it. Madara would have only had to tank part of the explosion of FRS until the Wood Dragon was completely destroyed. I've already provided examples of people using Preta Path after being hit/during getting hit. FRS isn't a magical exception for unknown reasons.


Then why wasn't the entire wind dome consumed by Preta Path if it was used, Sephiroth? All attacks that have hit the Preta Path barrier have vanished afterwards, remember?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> yes we do.  When a FRS explodes into a wind sphere, it creates a perfect spherical crater in the ground, meaning everything that comes into contact with the the sphere gets destroyed.  The only other explosions that are concentrated enough to do that are jinton and juubito's black orbs.  When a bijuudama explodes, it makes a crater, but it's not a perfect sphere like FRS meaning the explosion is less damage dense.



We know the traits of FRS. However saying that it is comparable to Juubito's black orbs and Jinton is a bit far. The latter two literally obliterate, whereas FRS just slices and slices. They may _appear_ the same, but they are not.
Bijuu Dama is more closer to the functions of Jinton/black orbs than FRS is.

It is not a matter of the shape of the jutsu, but its composition. FRS is composed if Fuuton chakra. Bee suggested that a certain balance of Yin and Yang chakra help form the Bijuu Dama. A perfect Yin-Yang balance can obliterate its targets, so a ratio 8:2 should be capable of the same, but to a much lesser extent. 
Plus whenever his chakra levels allow for it, there's a reason Naruto opts for Bijuu Dama over FRS.


> FRS yielded an explosion that filled up half the chibaku tensei crater
> FRS did more damage to kurama than 25+ mountain hollowers
> 
> So it's pretty much certain.  In addition to that, we know almost nothing in this manga for certain, and I'm pretty certain that you already know that.  So unless you want to burden your own arguments with a degree of 100% certainty for why my arguments are all false, then you asserting that on my own argument is meaningless.



FRS didn't damage Kurama for long. He got up very shortly and that's when Kushina came in. So the Kurama case isn't a strong point. Furthermore a Bijuu-Dama, Rokubi Naruto's, couldn't destroy it. So how is the less powerful FRS going to? Bear in mind that was a weaker CT (as it was used by Pain).



> Since the logic of my post has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not both attacks were powerful enough to take the bijuu out, then I'm guessing you concede this point and agree that based on that, COFRS is much stronger than a normal bijuudama.



All you've said is CFRS is stronger than a Bijuu-Dama because of how it explodes and its shape. Nothing about the nature of those two jutsu.



> The juubi's tails are made of wood now?



You're using an instance where the Juubi's tail was converted into wood/tree like structure. See the compare this with the .



> I'm only saying that based on the FRS ability to cut through the tails that can withstand a bijuudama and a ton of powerful slicing attacks, that it's at least only a level below a bijuudama's power which is extremely generous.  Now, are you asserting that by that feat, the FRS is in fact WAY weaker than a bijuudama?
> 
> Finally, I am still waiting for your positive arguments for why a COFRS isn't much stronger than a normal bijuudama.



Then your point shatters because it was dependent on FRS' abilities to cut through "tails".


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Then why wasn't the entire wind dome consumed by Preta Path if it was used, Sephiroth? All attacks that have hit the Preta Path barrier have vanished afterwards, remember?



All we saw was one panel of the wind sphere and that was at the very beginning of the attack. The attack didn't even leave a crater like the normal FRS does.


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## ueharakk (Jan 1, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know the traits of FRS. However saying that it is comparable to Juubito's black orbs and Jinton is a bit far. The latter two literally obliterate, whereas FRS just slices and slices. They may _appear_ the same, but they are not.
> Bijuu Dama is more closer to the functions of Jinton/black orbs than FRS is.


I think you missed the point I was trying to make.  I'm was not asserting that the way a FRS does damage is the same as jinton or black orbs, i'm saying that its damage density, like jinton and the black orbs is much greater than that or explosions of the same size since all three completely destroy whatever earth it comes into contact with, creating a perfect sphere.

Now in regards to the mechanics, a FRS is much closer to at least jinton in that both attack the target on extremely small scale.  Jinton does it at the molecular level, FRS does it at the cellular level, so mechanics-wise a FRS would be a much closer to that of jinton versus a raw explosions.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is not a matter of the shape of the jutsu, but its composition. FRS is composed if Fuuton chakra. Bee suggested that a certain balance of Yin and Yang chakra help form the Bijuu Dama. A perfect Yin-Yang balance can obliterate its targets, so a ratio 8:2 should be capable of the same, but to a much lesser extent.
> Plus whenever his chakra levels allow for it, there's a reason Naruto opts for Bijuu Dama over FRS.


Naruto's maximum output is his super bijuudamas that he uses against neo pain and Gedo mazou.  His rapidfire bijuudamas are obviously not his max since we know he can fire larger ones, thus I don't see why him opting to use an attack that we know to not be his strongest as any evidence that the said attack is more powerful than FRS.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> FRS didn't damage Kurama for long. He got up very shortly and that's when Kushina came in. So the Kurama case isn't a strong point.


Kurama is far more durable than the gyuuki and the gyuuki was only heavily wounded by the bijuudama.  So an attack that can incapacitate kurama to the point where it can't stand is obviously not going to be far weaker than an attack that heavily wounds a much weaker bijuu.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Furthermore a Bijuu-Dama, Rokubi Naruto's, couldn't destroy it. So how is the less powerful FRS going to? Bear in mind that was a weaker CT (as it was used by Pain).


FRS is less powerful.  Chou oodama FRS obviously isn't as it's hundreds of times larger than the FRS that is strong enough to incapacitate 50% Kurama.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All you've said is CFRS is stronger than a Bijuu-Dama because of how it explodes and its shape. Nothing about the nature of those two jutsu.


It's not how it explodes, it's the power of the explosion.  When a bijuudama goes off, it makes a crater, but a relatively flat one.  When FRS explodes, it makes a perfectly spherical crater which means the explosion of FRS is much more damage dense than a bijuudamas, and thus if both techniques have a similar AoE, yet one is much more damage dense than the other, then the one with the higher damage density is going to be much more powerful.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're using an instance where the Juubi's tail was converted into wood/tree like structure. See the compare this with the .


Wait, how is that any evidence that the juubi's tails suddenly were converted into a wood-like structure?  In the manga, the juubi's entire tails were never stated or implied to have converted into any different kind of material ever.  Even when they were cut, they still maintain their juubi-composition.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Then your point shatters because it was dependent on FRS' abilities to cut through "tails".


You're basing your argument on your personal interpretation of the cover artwork of a volume of the manga despite the manga not only never in anyway implying your assertion in the slightest, but *also disproving it.*

If you have to go to those kinds of lengths in order to argue your point is more plausible than not, then it's about time that you re-evaluate your argument.


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