# Shaka Virgo vs Sailor Cosmos



## saint rider 890 (May 10, 2016)

Speed Equal.

Both of them Bloodlusted.

Since Sailor moon is become universal let's see if we compare her to one of powerful character saint seiya.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Speed Equal?
Well Sailor Cosmos can channel information to her past self with the Golden Crystal warning herself of any of Shaka's haxes. She has significant advantages in DC and Durability, and is more versatile in her abilities.

It seems like she takes this handily.


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## saint rider 890 (May 10, 2016)

what about not equal ? very much sure sailor cosmos getting rape ?


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Not really. The same Golden Crystal allows her to avoid speedblitzes by channeling information and power back in time to her previous self warning her of her opponent's action or even duplicating herself via Time Travel (Chibi Chibi). Even ignoring that, she has auto-shields that protect her from things and I don't see what Virgo Shaka can do to damage her.


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

not sure how shield will help her resiste shaka`s TBH that`s is intangible technique
did she ever showed to such hax specifically?


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> not sure how shield will help her resiste shaka`s TBH that`s is intangible technique
> did she ever showed to such hax specifically?


I'm sorry I don't know what ability you are referring to specifically. Usagi has some degree of hax resistance to the abilities possessed by Chaos, as Sailor Chaos was unable to defeat Sailor Cosmos. I can't think of any hax Virgo Shaka could do that Chaos really couldn't do in some form or another


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I'm sorry I don't know what ability you are referring to specifically.


Tenbu Horin (Treasures of Heavens) that steals his victims senses
there are other more hax for shaka to win nonetheless like bfr SM to one of 6 realms of tartarus or soul fuck her


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Tenbu Horin (Treasures of Heavens) that steals his victims senses
> there are other more hax for shaka to win nonetheless like bfr SM to one of 6 realms of tartarus or soul fuck her


Sense Removal wouldn't work. Queen Metallia's mere presence can remove the sight from her enemies. The Power of the Moon that Sailor Moon uses merely by charging up restores senses

BFR also wouldn't work, since all Sailor Senshi possess interdimensional teleportation

Mistress 9 could steal 4 souls at once, but Super Sailor Moon survived within Pharaoh 90 who had absorbed Mistress 9


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## Kurou (May 10, 2016)

Removing sight and removing all of someones senses and their ability to think are two very different things


Shaka gets a new blow up doll

Reactions: Like 2


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Kurou said:


> Removing sight and removing all of someones senses and their ability to think are two very different things


Even if that did work and could remove Usagi's senses, Usagi can warn her past self of it via the Golden Crystal, and has haxes would one-shot with WAY less charge time like pointing at someone to remove their Star Seed.


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## Iwandesu (May 10, 2016)

How is the engagement prep going imp-chan?
On topic i actually could see sailor cosmos taking given she is pretty much the epitome of a verse that has quite hax in itself on top of being capable of being the strongest here


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

shaka`s could steal the senses of top tier goldies, despite thier control over sense 
and when you get bfr to tartarus you get instand death iirc so she won`t be able to teleport back, i mean mu killed DM and Afrodite by bfr them to hades castle


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> How is the engagement prep going imp-chan?


*blush* Very well, thank you. Just have to survive last year of school before I can finally go home to it.



SF latif said:


> shaka`s could steal the senses of top tier goldies, despite thier control over sense


Usagi has resistance pretty heavy duty matter and mental manipulation. Even if Shaka's ability could work, she has many abilities that could one-shot as well, and can arguablly perform multiple at once given her control of spacetime.



SF latif said:


> and when you get bfr to tartarus you get instand death iirc so she won`t be able to teleport back, i mean mu killed DM and Afrodite by bfr them to hades castle


Usagi can regenerate from nothingness and has fought many opponents who can dimensionally bfr who didn't even try to against her.


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## Solar (May 10, 2016)

Saint Seiya is too strong for univerals, so put them against multiversals.


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## saint rider 890 (May 10, 2016)

Isn't that agentha girl said Sailor moon become univesersal or just still galaxy ?


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## Kurou (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Even if that did work and could remove Usagi's senses, Usagi can warn her past self of it via the Golden Crystal, and has haxes would one-shot with WAY less charge time like pointing at someone to remove their Star Seed.



You must have missed the part where he can literally remove a persons ability to think

Thats along with his other sense removal. She aint exactly warning anybody if she cant process the thoughts to do so


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## Toaa (May 10, 2016)

On another note is anime saint seiya same as manga?


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Usagi has resistance pretty heavy duty matter and mental manipulation. Even if Shaka's ability could work, she has many abilities that could one-shot as well, and can arguablly perform multiple at once given her control of spacetime.


resisting mental/matter manipulation =//= resisting Tenbu Horin tbh 
shaka literally could remove her sense of touch and she`ll be unable to do anything partially + does she really even have enough AP/DC to kill shaka while he is in tenbu horin state?



Imperator100 said:


> Usagi can regenerate from nothingness and has fought many opponents who can dimensionally bfr who didn't even try to against her.


makes sense, i gusse.


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Sailor Cosmos can summon the river of oblivion and make Shaka forget everything. She doesn't even have to be anywhere near him to attack him due to the space warping of Lethe Crystal.



Imperator100 said:


> Sense Removal wouldn't work. Queen Metallia's mere presence can remove the sight from her enemies. The Power of the Moon that Sailor Moon uses merely by charging up restores senses
> 
> BFR also wouldn't work, since all Sailor Senshi possess interdimensional teleportation
> 
> Mistress 9 could steal 4 souls at once, but Super Sailor Moon survived within Pharaoh 90 who had absorbed Mistress 9



Soul rip won't work. Nehellenia did that to Sailor Moon and she just reformed her crystal and it disappeared from Nehellenia's possession.



Kurou said:


> Removing sight and removing all of someones senses and their ability to think are two very different things Shaka gets a new blow up doll



She can heal herself and has mind resistance

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Kurou said:


> You must have missed the part where he can literally remove a persons ability to think
> 
> Thats along with his other sense removal. She aint exactly warning anybody if she cant process the thoughts to do so


Regardless, Usagi can one-shot with alot of her haxes, can use multiple of them at a time due to her control of spacetime, it seems to me it is more likely she wins.


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> resisting mental/matter manipulation =//= resisting Tenbu Horin tbh
> shaka literally could remove her sense of touch and she`ll be unable to do anything partially + does she really even have enough AP/DC to kill shaka while he is in tenbu horin state?



She'll just go into her automatic healing mode. Her crystal will surround her in a protective case while she heals. And in that form she can still mess with timespace and attack.

She also create people and give them powers to attack.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> She also create people and give them powers to attack.


At what point does Usagi create people?


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> At what point does Usagi create people?



Via the Galaxy Cauldron. Cosmos has full control of it. She could essentially create beings and give them powers like what Chaos did.


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## ebonyLogic (May 10, 2016)

Wonder how a fight between sailor cosmos and omegamon X or Neo would go. would be a more interesting text between universals then trying to figured out who can out hax each other here.


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## Finalbeta (May 10, 2016)

Sailor Cosmos easily rapes.


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## Id (May 10, 2016)

Shaka uses the sailor scout as a cosmic mop


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Id said:


> Shaka uses the sailor scout as a cosmic mop


Cosmos beats Shaka pretty easily.


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## Id (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Cosmos beats Shaka pretty easily.


Shaka kills her to death


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Id said:


> Shaka kills her to death


Usagi points at Shaka.
GG.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Removing sight isn't the same thing as losing all six of your senses at the same time. Required the 7th Sense to overcome this, and in Shaka's case with Heaven's Treasure/Tenbu Horin, it required a focused big bang in the form of a Athena Exclamation to prevent the final curse of his ability. He can do more then simply "soul fuck" as well considering its placing one in a karmic cycle of suffering, death, and reincarnation.

Also Shaka was able to time travel to the past and telepathically communicate with his 18th century predecessor as well as sense disturbances in the flow of time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Usagi can freely duplicate herself through time, remove his essence by pointing at him, channel information and power to herself through time, ignore causality, seal him in another dimension (not just BFR him into another dimension but seal off that dimension), destroy the spacetime he is within, summon the rivers of oblivion which wipes away one's memories, alter probability in order to fate him to die, regenerate from nothingness, and alot of other things.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

I don't know anything about Sailor Moon but:

a) removing Shaka's essence isn't going to happen with his mastery of the 8th Sense
b) information won't make a difference when Shaka can do the same and prevent her from doing so in the first place
c) he can return from other dimensions a just fine on his own so this won't
d) everyone and their mother can break and destroy even dimension sized universes; Aries Mu whose inferior to both Gemini Saga, Gemini Kanon, and Virgo Shaka was able to erase and dissolve a dimension that was generating its own stars and space and was more accurately a pocket universe when he fought Dimensional Iapetos
e) mind-fucking isn't going to work against someone whose mastered reincarnation and total control of his body, mind, and soul even in Makai
f) fate manipulation has been done by stronger beings in Saint Seiya and I doubt unless Cosmos is Cronos/Zeus/Pontus tier that working against him


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## Sablés (May 10, 2016)

> c) he can return from other dimensions and universes just fine on his own so this won't



To be fair, he's not too good at Dimensional BFR. He all but admitted he couldn't fall for Another Dimension twice.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Yeah but that was against Saga. Shaka came back just fine when Ikki tried to do it on him but admitted he needed Mu to bring Ikki back because Mu's psychic powers are greater then his.


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## SkylineGTR (May 10, 2016)

Never seen SS but how does 8th sense work exactly? You can auto ressurect if you die correct? So what happens if your soul is destroyed? Can SS characters still auto revive if their souls are destroyed?


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I don't know anything about Sailor Moon but:
> 
> a) removing Shaka's essence isn't going to happen with his mastery of the 8th Sense
> b) information won't make a difference when Shaka can do the same and prevent her from doing so in the first place
> ...



A: Why? Removing an essence causes someone to collapse into nothingness and Usagi can then recreate Shaka as a loyal subject of hers if she chooses. It's not soul manipulation
C: This is what I was talking about, can he escape from a dimension that has been Sealed off, as in charactesr that can normally go between dimensions can't escape?
The rest are fair

Some other abilities of hers:
Existence Erasure
Absorption
Attack Reflection
Attack Sealing (Seals someone inside their own attack)
Anti-Magic
Can Freeze Time at will or send a person through spacetime at will
Can Absorb Energy
Can Transmute people

....That's about all the haxes I can think of for now.


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## Iwandesu (May 10, 2016)

SkylineGTR said:


> Never seen SS but how does 8th sense work exactly? You can auto ressurect if you die correct? So what happens if your soul is destroyed? Can SS characters still auto revive if their souls are destroyed?


No they cant
Unless you are ikki or LC GS getting your soul shredded is supposed to be a dead end
Seiya for the record had his soul cursed by hades sword and cant do anything besides slowly struggle to his definitive death
Keep in mind that actually soul fucking a saint is supposedly difficult,tho
Even more one with so many resistances like fucking shaka with the 8 sense

Reactions: Like 1


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I don't know anything about Sailor Moon but:
> 
> a) removing Shaka's essence isn't going to happen with his mastery of the 8th Sense
> b) information won't make a difference when Shaka can do the same and prevent her from doing so in the first place
> ...



a) Sailor Cosmos won't just remove it, she'll own it and will be able to do anything she wants to him, recreate him as her complete servent.
b) Even if her removes her senses and incapcitates her, she'd automatically be sealed inside her crystal and be healed. And while she's being healed she can still use her powers by bending space and time.
c) Has he shown being able to break out of sealed dimensions? If so, Cosmos can just seal him into a object
d)fine
e) Cosmos controls the very concept of reincarnation, he won't be able to recreate himself once his soul or essense has been taken by Cosmos. Also, cosmos can summon the River of Oblivion to make him completely lose his memory, he won't even know who he is. Only the river of memory could be able to undue the effects which Cosmos also has control of
f) Cosmos controls the literal concept of creation and spacetime


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> A: Why? Removing an essence causes someone to collapse into nothingness and Usagi can then recreate Shaka as a loyal subject of hers if she chooses. It's not soul manipulation
> C: This is what I was talking about, can he escape from a dimension that has been Sealed off, as in charactesr that can normally go between dimensions can't escape?
> The rest are fair
> 
> ...



a) He can resist it
b) Definitely sounds like a type of soul fuckery
c) Yes he can

Like I said earlier, he can sense disturbances in time, even long dead and sealed, he was able to telepathically go back in time and contact his predecessor after Athena was turned into a baby when Chronos sent her and Shun back in time to the 18th century through Shun's Andromeda Cloth.



Agent9149 said:


> a) Sailor Cosmos won't just remove it, she'll own it and will be able to do anything she wants to him, recreate him as her complete servent.



Doubtful.



> b) Even if her removes her senses and incapcitates her, she'd automatically be sealed inside her crystal and be healed. And while she's being healed she can still use her powers by bending space and time.



When has she ever dealt with someone who can take away all six of her senses and done that?



> c) Has he shown being able to break out of sealed dimensions? If so, Cosmos can just seal him into a object
> d)fine



Yes he can. Far weaker characters have early in the story, Mu, another Gold Saint and someone whose only an upper-mid tier compared to Shaka, erased and dissolved a pocket universe/dimensional rift like I already mentioned earlier. Shaka > Mu. Also Shaka carries his rosaries as standard equipment and sealed all 108 Specters of Hades' army who had natural soul resistance and artificial immorality.

Dohko, whose Shion's equal and both are inferior in terms of pure Cosmos power to Shaka, was able to keep the seal at the Rozan Peaks as an old man without even wearing his Libra Gold Cloth or using his true body, that includes Hades' soul as well. Does Cosmo rank above Hades? Somehow I doubt it.



> e) Cosmos controls the very concept of reincarnation, he won't be able to recreate himself once his soul or essense has been taken by Cosmos. Also, cosmos can summon the River of Oblivion to make him completely lose his memory, he won't even know who he is. Only the river of memory could be able to undue the effects which Cosmos also has control of
> f) Cosmos controls the literal concept of creation and spacetime



Shaka is the Buddhista and avatar of Buddha himself. I severely doubt she's going to be reincarnating him against his will or affecting his mind or memories. Also, so does Cosmos power in Saint Seiya. Its the power of the Big Bang made manifest.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Shaka > Mu

Also typo here that was confirmed a long time ago, the kanji was used for "universe" not dimension.


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> When has she ever dealt with someone who can take away all six of her senses and done that?



She's been shown to be able to heal people's sense loss and can auto heal herself back to her normal form.



Fang said:


> Yes he can. Far weaker characters have early in the story, Mu, another Gold Saint and someone whose only an upper-mid tier compared to Shaka, erased and dissolved a pocket universe/dimensional rift like I already mentioned earlier. Shaka > Mu. Also Shaka carries his rosaries as standard equipment and sealed all 108 Specters of Hades' army who had natural soul resistance and artificial immorality.



Being able to destroy dimensions doesn't mean that he's immune to being sealed inside a physical object or her crystal for that matter.



Fang said:


> Shaka is the Buddhista and avatar of Buddha himself. I severely doubt she's going to be reincarnating him against his will or affecting his mind or memories. Also, so does Cosmos power in Saint Seiya. Its the power of the Big Bang made manifest.



Sailor Cosmos can shape and rewrite the entire universe and all life in anyway as she pleases. Cosmos power in Saint Seiya is not equivalent to controlling the abstract concepts of creation, life and reincarnation in the entire universe through all time.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> She's been shown to be able to heal people's sense loss and can auto heal herself back to her normal form.



You mean only sight, not all six senses? Doesn't sound like it'll work.



> Being able to destroy dimensions doesn't mean that he's immune to being sealed inside a physical object or her crystal for that matter.



Shaka can destroy and create dimensions. He even made a dimensional tunnel between his Virgo Temple at the Sanctuary in Athens, Greece to India where he usually resides. Transmutation and enchantment stuff are the main stay of the Silver Saints and doesn't mean shit to Shaka, a high tier Gold Saint.

Fucking Justice Themis, the wife of Dimensional Iapetos of the Titans, a full on Goddess, couldn't even use her ability to project a scale with all of humanity's sins from all of time and history, couldn't weigh down Taurus Alderbaran with it and he's the weakest of the Gold Saints.

I'm really really doubting it.



> Sailor Cosmos can shape and rewrite the entire universe and all life in anyway as she pleases. Cosmos power in Saint Seiya is not equivalent to controlling the abstract concepts of creation, life and reincarnation in the entire universe through all time.



Hahaha, wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SkylineGTR (May 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> No they cant
> Unless you are ikki or LC GS getting your soul shredded is supposed to be a dead end
> Seiya for the record had his soul cursed by hades sword and cant do anything besides slowly struggle to his definitive death
> Keep in mind that actually soul fucking a saint is supposedly difficult,tho
> Even more one with so many resistances like fucking shaka with the 8 sense



Ah I see. Guess that's one of the very few ways to put a saint down for good.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Why can he resist Essence/Star Seed Removal? It's not the same thing as Soul Manipulation. Has he resistanced anyone manipulating his essence or concept?


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Explain how that works.


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Shaka can destroy and create dimensions. He even made a dimensional tunnel between his Virgo Temple at the Sanctuary in Athens, Greece to India where he usually resides. Transmutation and enchantment stuff are the main stay of the Silver Saints and doesn't mean shit to Shaka, a high tier Gold Saint. Fucking Justice Themis, the wife of Dimensional Iapetos of the Titans, a full on Goddess, couldn't even use her ability to project a scale with all of humanity's sins, couldn't weigh Taurus Alderbaran with it and he's the weakest of the Gold Saints.
> 
> I'm really really doubting it.



Yeah. This has nothing to do with being sealed inside an inanimate object. Like a pencil. or a apple. Or even inside abstract concepts like his own attack. It's not transmutation. You can't "dimension" yourself out of that. You need reality warping. Unless you can show Shaka freeing himself from being sealed inside animate objects you can't brush over this hax. 



Fang said:


> You mean only sight, not all six senses? Doesn't sound like it'll work.



She can auto-heal herself back to her normal form. Unless he can prevent healing, taking away senses won't matter when she can just rejuvenate herself.



Fang said:


> Hahaha, wrong.



You're saying that Shaka is on abstract level now?


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

You can stop repeating yourself ad naseum with the same circular arguments, Agent. Its clear you have no idea what people in Saint Seiya can do and its getting tedious now.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Explain how that works.


In the Sailor Moon Universe there are these things called Star Seeds, which represents the totality of one's being. All things, includng soul, come from Star Seeds. The power of the Sapphire Crystal allows the removal of another being's Star Seed with a point, causing the rest of them to fade away almost immediately and the taker can then remake the person at will, completely loyal to them. Remaking their power, body, mind, soul, etc.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Shaka doesn't have a Star Seed. 

Actually this whole time I've been debating I completely forgot to factor in Shaka with his God Cloth


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Shaka doesn't have a Star Seed.
> 
> Actually this whole time I've been debating I completely forgot to factor in Shaka with his God Cloth



Shaka has a Star Seed. Equivalence Rule. Shaka is a living being.

Also, is this with Shaka's God Cloth. Either way it really doesn't change much. It boosts his DC/Durability and Speed but DC//Durability are still Usagi's (Universal vs. Multi-Galactic) and Speed was equalized.


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> but DC//Durability are still Usagi's (Universal vs. Multi-Galactic)


actualy, post-nirvana shaka is more or less universal himself with agyo


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> actualy, post-nirvana shaka is more or less universal himself with agyo


Really? Neat! So raw power is anyone's game then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Really? Neat! So raw power is anyone's game then.


yea, his agyo was comparable to shijami`s ungyo which is said that can destroy an universe


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## God (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Shaka has a Star Seed. Equivalence Rule. *Shaka is a living being*.



You said it wasn't soulfuckery, but if it has to be a living being to be affected, then it's soulfuckery. If it was a conceptual attack, it would also affect the metaphysical form of things.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Cubey said:


> You said it wasn't soulfuckery, but if it has to be a living being to be affected, then it's soulfuckery. If it was a conceptual attack, it would also affect the metaphysical form of things.


It's not just living things that have Star Seeds, anything that can bear life, up to and including celestial bodies like planets do. They are completely distinct from souls. This distinction was made very notifiable in the Third arc when it was stated that Chibiusa had her Soul and her Silver Crystal (Her Star Seed) taken from her, and Hotaru had to return her Star Seed to her soul.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Shaka has a Star Seed. Equivalence Rule. Shaka is a living being.



Equivalence only works with energy systems.



> Also, is this with Shaka's God Cloth. Either way it really doesn't change much. It boosts his DC/Durability and Speed but DC//Durability are still Usagi's (Universal vs. Multi-Galactic) and Speed was equalized.



Shaka would be multi-galactic to universal, and I've already repeatedly displayed how broken his powers are just using him in his normal Gold Cloth without going into his God Gold Cloth version here.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on how she's dealing with being soul-fucked, or mind-fucked into oblivion. I already displayed this by showing Aries Mu, someone much weaker then Virgo Shaka, erasing a sealed pocket universe/dimensional rift, and Taurus Alderbaran standing up with the weight of all of humanity's sins in history when he was weighed on the Scales by Justice Themis.


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> You can stop repeating yourself ad naseum with the same circular arguments, Agent. Its clear you have no idea what people in Saint Seiya can do and its getting tedious now.



I'm the one with the circular arguments? Yeah.

Your main argument is, "she's not on that level".

I'm still asking if Shaka or anyone who he can power scale to was shown being able to unseal themselves from being sealed inside inanimate objects or abstract concepts like attacks. (not inside dimensions or pocket universes)?



Cubey said:


> You said it wasn't soulfuckery, but if it has to be a living being to be affected, then it's soulfuckery. If it was a conceptual attack, it would also affect the metaphysical form of things.



Everything has a starseed, planets, and stars, organisms.


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Equivalence only works with energy systems.


No it doesn't. We assume a character has a soul for instance, even if the verse never says anything about souls. Likewise we assume Shaka has an Essence even if it's never mentioned because of the same principle.





> Shaka would be multi-galactic to universal, and I've already repeatedly displayed how broken his powers are. I'm still waiting for an explanation on how she's dealing with being soul-fucked, or mind-fucked into oblivion.


She has vast resistance to both soul and mind manipulation. The First Villain, Queen Metallia, easily caused all of humanity to go insane with her mere presence. Couldn't do anything to Usagi. Pharaoh 90 could affect souls but could no do anything to Usagi.

Usagi is far more versatile and unless you can show that Shaka has resistance to Essence Manipulation, then that's GG


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I'm the one with the circular arguments? Yeah.



Yeah, you are. Want a consensus? 



> Your main argument is, "she's not on that level".



No, that's not my main argument. Learn to read please.



> I'm still asking if Shaka or anyone who he can power scale to was shown being able to unseal themselves from being sealed inside inanimate objects or abstract concepts like attacks. (not inside dimensions or pocket universes)?



Still waiting for those abstract attacks in the first place.



> Everything has a starseed, planets, and stars, organisms.



Only energy stems overlap in the OBD equivalence rule.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> No it doesn't. We assume a character has a soul for instance, even if the verse never says anything about souls. Likewise we assume Shaka has an Essence even if it's never mentioned because of the same principle.



Yes, it does. A droid or robot doesn't have a soul in one fiction doesn't mean it has a soul in another. If this Star Seed is solely a biological component, then Shaka doesn't have one.



> She has vast resistance to both soul and mind manipulation. The First Villain, Queen Metallia, easily caused all of humanity to go insane with her mere presence. Couldn't do anything to Usagi. Pharaoh 90 could affect souls but could no do anything to Usagi.



Shaka can seal and supress the powers of Titans that includes a sealed Cronos whose still in his weakest state as a disembodied spirit > above the Titans who had their Somas and bodies. Same with the Gigants/Giants. Same Cronos even with amnesia in his child form instinctively turned back time and brought past and future version of the Earth with his power together. Not impressed so far.



> Usagi is far more versatile and unless you can show that Shaka has resistance to Essence Manipulation, then that's GG



Sounds just like another form of soul-fuckery which you have failed to remotely explain why it isn't in the first place, so Shaka isn't having an issue with that considering he's better at sealing powers and souls including that of Dohko who maintained the seals at the Rozan Peaks against the entire army of 108 Specters of Hades and Hades himself.

You avoided my earlier post asking about how she compares to Hades, which I'm inclined to accept as a concession she's inferior to him.


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

saints have fought back against conceptual attacks (e.g aiolia fighting light that was cursed to one of his assisstence)


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Sorry for the delay. My computer broke.



Fang said:


> Yes, it does. A droid or robot doesn't have a soul in one fiction doesn't mean it has a soul in another. If this Star Seed is solely a biological component, then Shaka doesn't have one.


It's not a biological component. Everything has one, including planets.




> Shaka can seal and supress the powers of Titans that includes a sealed Cronos whose still in his weakest state as a disembodied spirit > above the Titans who had their Somas and bodies. Same with the Gigants/Giants. Not impressed so far.


That doesn't tell me any mental or soul manipulation feats. Can Shaka mentally control an entire planet like Metallia. Physical Power does not need to correlate to mental power. Mentally manipulating a stronger person does not give any bonus points if their mind has no resistance feats.



> Sounds just like another form of soul-fuckery which you have failed to remotely explain


What the? I explaned it awhile back. The Star Seed/Essence is the totality of one's being, and everything is determinant on it including the soul. The Series makes a CLEAR distinction between the two. Chibiusa's Silver Crystal (Her Star Seed) is explicitly returned to her soul by Astral Hotaru. You can't say their the same because they are explicit not the same.




> why it isn't in the first place, so Shaka isn't having an issue with that considering he's better at sealing powers and souls including that of Dohko who maintained the seals at the Rozan Peaks against the entire army of 108 Specters of Hades and Hades himself.


So he has soul manipulation on the scale of 109 individuals. Whoop de doo. Mimete could soul manipulate hundreds of people and Mistress 9 was above her, and Pharaoh 90 after absorbing Mistress 9 was above even her. Couldn't do anything to Super Sailor Moon and Usagi can use that same soul manipulation.



> You avoided my earlier post asking about how she compares to Hades, which I'm inclined to accept as a concession she's inferior to him.


Either that post was not directed at me or I missed it.

How does she compare to Hades? In what, DC? Durability? Speed? Soul Manipulation? What? She is better in some areas and he is better in some areas.


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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> It's not a biological component. Everything has one, including planets.



Still not giving me any specifics here.



> That doesn't tell me any mental or soul manipulation feats./quote]
> 
> Re-read my post.
> 
> ...


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Still not giving me any specifics here.


What do you want? The series says "Everything, including planets, has a star seed". What are you asking for? If you want specifics, then ask a specific question. I don't know what you are asking about.



> Re-read my post.


I did. Several times trying to find a single feat of mental or soul manipulation. Got nothing. Your post says he sealed people, and they were powerful people. Which means nothing on the mental or astral plane.



> Good thing Cosmos suppression isn't physical power alone then. And a God >>>>>>>>>> humans when it comes to "resistance feats". Said Titans have Dunamis and Divine Cosmos and their own wills. This includes against Mnemosyne whose main ability is mind fucking and sealing the powers of other Gods.


Give one resistance feat they have. It doesn't matter if they are SOOOOOOO beyond humans. They need a feat on at least the planetary scale to matter even to the First Chaos-Spawn Metallia. This is like saying that because a street level person is so much stronger then another street level person then they can beat a planetbuster, just with mental power and not physical power. I get that they have more resistance but if it's featless then it's an quantifiable more and it's not very impressive.



> Just sounds like a fancier form of soul fuckery to me, mate.


Well then that's your problem. Soul and Essence Manipulation are different things in verse and the words soul and essence are not equivalent. Show a feat of essence manipulation resistance.



> Specters > Normal people
> Titans > Normal people
> 
> Not impressed.


Unquantifiable ">" If you want them to have soul resistance on part with Third Arc Sailor Venus who resisted Mimete's Soul Manipulation (in her civilian form), you need better then affecting the souls of beings physically stronger then humans. You need feats of large scale soul resistance, or the overcoming of someone of said soul scale.



> I very much doubt that.


Usagi is far more versatile then Hades. Usagi can freeze time at will, or send people through spacetime at will. She can remove the essence of beings, absorb them into her, ignore causality (not actually sure if Hades can do that one), duplicate herself via time travel....etc. Only in the most blatant stomps imaginable does one side have literally every advantage (which means they can do everything the other side can do and better).


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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Still waiting for those abstract attacks in the first place.



She can seal people inside their own attacks. For example, if you shot a laser beam at her she would seal you inside the actual laserbeam.



Fang said:


> Still not giving me any specifics here.



She's already given you specifics. Starseeds are the essence of a thing's existence. It's not a soul but the very existance of an organism, planet, or star.


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## SF latif (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Unquantifiable ">" If you want them to have soul resistance on part with Third Arc Sailor Venus who resisted Mimete's Soul Manipulation (in her civilian form), you need better then affecting the souls of beings physically stronger then humans. You need feats of large scale soul resistance, or the overcoming of someone of said soul scale.


hades moved all the planets/moons in the solarsystem with his will alone, titans should be more or less have the same capacity as hades



Imperator100 said:


> Usagi is far more versatile then Hades. Usagi can freeze time at will, or send people through spacetime at will. She can remove the essence of beings, absorb them into her, ignore causality (not actually sure if Hades can do that one), duplicate herself via time travel....etc. Only in the most blatant stomps imaginable does one side have literally every advantage (which means they can do everything the other side can do and better).


orpheus tried to stop time on a fundamental level, but failed to effect radamanthys, shaka did time-travel in ND
the only thing i can see being problematic is conceptual attacks. maybe aiolia fighting light will give them some sort of resistence to it?


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## Imperator100 (May 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> hades moved all the planets/moons in the solarsystem with his will alone, titans should be more or less have the same capacity as hades


That's....great for physical power but doesn't really apply to astral stuff.




> orpheus tried to stop time on a fundamental level, but failed to effect radamanthys, shaka did time-travel in ND
> the only thing i can see being problematic is conceptual attacks. maybe aiolia fighting light will give them some sort of resistence to it?


Does Shaka get scaling to Time Stop Immunity. Also even if he can time travel Usagi could send him to the end of time....or the beginning of time....or into a time purgatory which erases one's existence. She has ALOT of haxes. She has numerous ways to erase existence, she could absorb him.....


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## Kurou (May 10, 2016)

>Says he has shown no feats of affecting people with mental resistance
>Dohko keeps hades and his specters sealed
>Hades alone has enough psychic ability to move the entire solar sytem into alignment
>Shaka is far above Dohko when it comes to mental and spiritual manipulation.( Its the fucking reason they call Shaka the man closest to god and the reincarnation of buddha )

Top fucking kek

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## Fang (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> What do you want? The series says "Everything, including planets, has a star seed". What are you asking for? If you want specifics, then ask a specific question. I don't know what you are asking about.



And nothing in Saint Seiya has a Star Seed. So no, equivalence isn't making that happen just to slight an inclination advantage to Sailor Moon because it doesn't work that way, and never has before with how we use equivalence here.



> I did. Several times trying to find a single feat of mental or soul manipulation. Got nothing. Your post says he sealed people, and they were powerful people. Which means nothing on the mental or astral plane.



You are blind then. Or being willfully ignorant. Or possibly a combination of both to be honest. Shaka can shut down the 6th Sense in other people like Saga, Shura, and Camus. I mentioned far earlier it took an Athena Exclamation from the three of them who had already lost their five senses to overpower his curse. I also posted that before repeatedly that Shaka was suppressing the powers of the revived Titans in Episode G's start after the majority of them are revived by Pontus.

Destroying ghosts, spirits, and anything "astrally", has been a common ability of Gold Saints since the start of the series. Its utterly nonsensical you think you'll get away with such a silly comment.

Try again for "waiting for a single feat" bit.



> Give one resistance feat they have. It doesn't matter if they are SOOOOOOO beyond humans. They need a feat on at least the planetary scale to matter even to the First Chaos-Spawn Metallia. This is like saying that because a street level person is so much stronger then another street level person then they can beat a planetbuster, just with mental power and not physical power. I get that they have more resistance but if it's featless then it's an quantifiable more and it's not very impressive.



Every single two-sealed Titan is above the average Gold Saint to the point their Cosmos literally leaves them in cold sweats. Shaka fought with Aiolia against Dimensional Iapetos and his wife, Justice Themis, who've I mentioned multiple times before. Each of them even in their restricted states can still produce a universe with Melas Planetas. And said universe is fully populated with its own universe-sized Cosmos, living beings, their worshipers, other planets, and stars and so on.

Shaka destroyed the senses of Themis and affected to an extent those of Iapetos until he resorted to using Themis as his waifu-sword.

They are not fucking featless.



> Well then that's your problem. Soul and Essence Manipulation are different things in verse and the words soul and essence are not equivalent. Show a feat of essence manipulation resistance.



There is no Star Seeds in Saint Seiya.
There is no equivalence supporting your claim that there will be in a Saint Seiya-verse vs Sailor Moon-verse match up.
The burden of proof is still on you.



> Unquantifiable ">" If you want them to have soul resistance on part with Third Arc Sailor Venus who resisted Mimete's Soul Manipulation (in her civilian form), you need better then affecting the souls of beings physically stronger then humans. You need feats of large scale soul resistance, or the overcoming of someone of said soul scale.



Good thing the Titans are Gods who can produce their own universes, possess Divine Cosmos, and the Dunamis as well as vastly higher senses then mortals that extend to the 9th Sense aka the Big Will.



> Usagi is far more versatile then Hades.



Doubtful.



> Usagi can freeze time at will



Asmita can time-stop.
Asmita isn't above Hades who can create multiple dimensions larger then the main universe.



> or send people through spacetime at will.



Big whoop. Most mid tiers and up can do this with zero effort in Saint Seiya, how or why you think this will be impressive to Hades is beyond anyone here.



> She can remove the essence of beings



*She can remove the essence of beings in her verse who have some silly Seed thing not found in any other fiction



> absorb them into her



Not impressive.



> ignore causality (not actually sure if Hades can do that one),



I'm gonna wait for Nevermind or Movement's assessment before I take this with anything other then a grain of salt.



> duplicate herself via time travel....etc.



Hades can duplicate people, revive the dead, control the souls of all deceased beings in Makai, created multiple dimensions that are larger then the universe, possess people, rearrange an entire star system with less than a thought telekinetically, depower other beings, create copies of Athena's Cloths with his Surplices, attack people from other dimensions or universes, curse the souls and bodies of the living or dead, manipulate reality and matter with the Big Will/9th Sense, return souls to their bodies or recreate them to reinhabit, even give others immortality itself.

Hell even his mere aura deflected attacks from God Cloth Pegasus Seiya that one-shotted Thanatos casually.



> Only in the most blatant stomps imaginable does one side have literally every advantage (which means they can do everything the other side can do and better).



Sounds like what Hades would do to most of Sailor Moonverse then.




Agent9149 said:


> She can seal people inside their own attacks. For example, if you shot a laser beam at her she would seal you inside the actual laserbeam.



An immature not fully awakened 7th Sense Leo Aiolia was resisting reality warping from Pontus who utilized a wave of Dunamis against him. Not seeing it happening to Shaka who again powerscales well above Aiolia and Alderbaran.



> She's already given you specifics. Starseeds are the essence of a thing's existence. It's not a soul but the very existance of an organism, planet, or star.



Not in Saint Seiya it don't.

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## Agent9149 (May 10, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> time purgatory



What's that?


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## SF latif (May 11, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> That's....great for physical power but doesn't really apply to astral stuff.


he was moving them with his mind not physically. if it were physically athena would`ve stopped it



Imperator100 said:


> Does Shaka get scaling to Time Stop Immunity. Also even if he can time travel Usagi could send him to the end of time....or the beginning of time....or into a time purgatory which erases one's existence. She has ALOT of haxes. She has numerous ways to erase existence, she could absorb him.....


yea, shaka is far above goldies in ND even three judges who one of them resisted orpheus`s time-stop. Ikki travelled back to posiedons dimension when konon send him to cracks of time. i seriously doubt bfr will work on shaka when he resisted AD and got back when he got send to dimension between time and space.


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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> That's....great for physical power but doesn't really apply to astral stuff.



Except astral stuff is what they do all the time. I've mentioned before and so have others that Shaka can project himself telepathically to his predecessor in the 18th century while he's already dead in the 20th with zero issue.



> Does Shaka get scaling to Time Stop Immunity. Also even if he can time travel Usagi could send him to the end of time....or the beginning of time....or into a time purgatory which erases one's existence. She has ALOT of haxes. She has numerous ways to erase existence, she could absorb him.....



>End of Time

Didn't even work against Tokisada, won't work against Shaka.


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## Kurou (May 11, 2016)

Also to clarify why the star seed thing doesnt get equalized

Its like bastard

Juat because angels and demons in bastard have eternal atoms, that doesnt mean we give angels and demons from other fictions eternal atoms when we put them in a VS thread with bastard

Its the same thing here

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## SF latif (May 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> >End of Time
> 
> Didn't even work against Tokisada, won't work against Shaka.


let`s not forget tokisada stated he can maniplulate casuality in a specific dimension which haruto ignored

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## Agent9149 (May 11, 2016)

Kurou said:


> >Says he has shown no feats of affecting people with mental resistance
> >Dohko keeps hades and his specters sealed
> >Hades alone has enough psychic ability to move the entire solar sytem into alignment
> >Shaka is far above Dohko when it comes to mental and spiritual manipulation.( Its the fucking reason they call Shaka the man closest to god and the reincarnation of buddha )
> ...



That's nice. Has Shaka shown ability to escape being sealed into things? Just saying x character sealed y character doesn't mean that Shaka automatically has sealing resistance. You need show him resisting being sealed or freeing himself from being sealed in an inanimate object.

Hades moving the solar system is Telekinesis feat. Not a telepathy feat. You can't interchange the two. So yeah? About those telepathy scale and resistance feats?



Fang said:


> And nothing in Saint Seiya has a Star Seed. So no, equivalence isn't making that happen just to slight an inclination advantage to Sailor Moon because it doesn't work that way, and never has before with how we use equivalence here.



Okay. By that logic, then none of your 6th, 7th or any other sense has zero application to Sailor Cosmos since that doesn't exist in sailor moon.

(and if people truly wanted to be petty, we could say cosmos related feats has zero application to Sailor Cosmos because there is no such thing as big bang in Salor moon, but people won't be that petty here)



Fang said:


> Each of them even in their restricted states can still produce a universe with Melas Planetas. And said universe is fully populated with its own universe-sized Cosmos, living beings, their worshipers, other planets, and stars and so on.



Since when did Melas Planetas create a universe? Last time I checked, it created a planet that was populated not a whole universe, unless there has been new development showing it created a universe full of life.




Fang said:


> Asmita can time-stop.
> Asmita isn't above Hades who can create multiple dimensions larger then the main universe.



You can't powerscale abilities to everyone who is stronger than a character. That's not how it works. Unless, the character is shown to actually do that ability or is said to be able to, you can't just apply it upwards.



Fang said:


> Hades can duplicate people, revive the dead, control the souls of all deceased beings in Makai, created multiple dimensions that are larger then the universe, possess people, rearrange an entire star system with less than a thought telekinetically, depower other beings, create copies of Athena's Cloths with his Surplices, attack people from other dimensions or universes, curse the souls and bodies of the living or dead, manipulate reality and matter with the Big Will/9th Sense, return souls to their bodies or recreate them to reinhabit, even give others immortality itself.



The only thing that Sailor Cosmos hasn't been shown to be able to do what you said is telekinectly align the solar system. And that's not even going to touch Sailor Cosmos. Pharaoh 90 was moving an entire galaxy and the Senshi were able to stand up to him.

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## Imperator100 (May 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> And nothing in Saint Seiya has a Star Seed. So no, equivalence isn't making that happen just to slight an inclination advantage to Sailor Moon because it doesn't work that way, and never has before with how we use equivalence here.


What? That doesn't make any sense. Shaka has an essence, an essence is a real concept. You're saying "Star Seeds don't exist in Saint Seiya" is akin to someone saying the cast of Star Trek don't have souls because they are never mentioned to have souls and therefore are immune to soul manipulation. 




> You are blind then. Or being willfully ignorant. Or possibly a combination of both to be honest. Shaka can shut down the 6th Sense in other people like Saga, Shura, and Camus. I mentioned far earlier it took an Athena Exclamation from the three of them who had already lost their five senses to overpower his curse. I also posted that before repeatedly that Shaka was suppressing the powers of the revived Titans in Episode G's start after the majority of them are revived by Pontus.


Is Sensory Manipulation a Mental Manipulation Feat or Not. You have been inconsistent, I said Sailor Cosmos can resist that because She has feats of mental manipulation resistance, you said it's not mental or matter manipulation resistance, you are now claiming it is mental manipulation resistance.



> Destroying ghosts, spirits, and anything "astrally", has been a common ability of Gold Saints since the start of the series. Its utterly nonsensical you think you'll get away with such a silly comment.


This is the same in Sailor Moon. Planet Power has always been able to attacks ghosts and spirits, in the Battle Exam Stories the Senshi's normal attacks destroy Genius Loci. That doesn't mean the Sailor Senshi are all Multi-Galactic to Universal Soul Manipulators. If it did it would mean that it no longer matter as this fight would be just raw power again, and the astral stuff doesn't matter. 



> Try again for "waiting for a single feat" bit.


Still waiting for a single feat of Planetary Scale Mental Manipulation. Unless you are saying that because they can physically strike on the mental plane he is therefore a Universal Level Mental Manipulator, in which case so are the Senshi because they can do THE EXACT SAME THING. Attacking a planet, and manipulating on a plane are not the same in the same way that physical strikes and energy blasts are not the same thing as molecular manipulation.




> Every single two-sealed Titan is above the average Gold Saint to the point their Cosmos literally leaves them in cold sweats. Shaka fought with Aiolia against Dimensional Iapetos and his wife, Justice Themis, who've I mentioned multiple times before. Each of them even in their restricted states can still produce a universe with Melas Planetas. And said universe is fully populated with its own universe-sized Cosmos, living beings, their worshipers, other planets, and stars and so on.


All of this is physical power. None of this is controlling or resisting mental or soul manipulation. You can claim that it is because they can hit the Mental and Soul Plane but that's not the same thing and if you equivocate them then the Sailor Senshi can do the EXACT SAME THING.



> Shaka destroyed the senses of Themis and affected to an extent those of Iapetos until he resorted to using Themis as his waifu-sword.


That is literally using it on one person. A person with lots of physical power, yes. But it's not a mental resistance feat.




> There is no Star Seeds in Saint Seiya.


The characters have an essence, a totality. Essence or Abstract Concept is not something that is specific to one universe. SS not having any manipulation of it does not mean the characters lack an essence. That's utterly ridiculous.




> Good thing the Titans are Gods who can produce their own universes, possess Divine Cosmos, and the Dunamis as well as vastly higher senses then mortals that extend to the 9th Sense aka the Big Will.


I already know these things. None of these is a feat of manipulation or resistance of the manipulation of minds or souls. Show me one instance of a character manipulating all the minds of a single planet at once. Show me one instance of a character manipulating hundreds of souls at once. Controlling matter or space is not the same. I know that they have enhanced mental capacities but that no more gives them resistance then High IQ would give you resistance to hypnosis.





> Doubtful.


Usagi has, literally, billions of powersets. I have not even scratched the surface of what she can do. She wields the Lambda Power of which every other Planet Power is an aspect, and there are confirmed at least billions. I can continue to go down on all the things Usagi can do, for quite a long time. She has a very very very versatile and diverse arsenal.




> Asmita can time-stop.
> Asmita isn't above Hades who can create multiple dimensions larger then the main universe.


What are Asmita's feats of Time Stop? How large an area does it affect, how long is it maintained, etc.




> Big whoop. Most mid tiers and up can do this with zero effort in Saint Seiya, how or why you think this will be impressive to Hades is beyond anyone here.


Because unlike them Usagi can throw people into "Time Purgatories", the places between moments of time which erases the existence of all that fall in.





> She can remove the essence of beings...


Concession accepted. The rest of this quote is you trying to pretend her ability wouldn't work for asinine reasons.




> Not impressive.


Under what logic? Pharaoh 90 was absorbing matter, energy, and even to some extent spacetime within itself. Virgo Shaka is still made of matter and energy. He MAY be able to resurrect from being absorbed, but being absorbed means Usagi in this case would gain all his abilities.




> Hades can duplicate people, revive the dead,


Both of which Usagi can do. Hell Usagi can restore people from nothingness.



> control the souls of all deceased beings in Makai,


Lambda Power may be able to do this. Regardless, how does this relate to Shaka?



> created multiple dimensions that are larger then the universe,


I never claimed Usagi had more raw power then Hades. But are you claiming that Virgo Shaka, even with God Cloth, has this level of power?



> possess people


Possession is the Poor's Man Brainwashing. 



> rearrange an entire star system with less than a thought telekinetically,


Oooooooh, the Solar System. Come on, Usagi, Shaka, and Hades are all way above this. The Lambda Power recreated the cosmos at the end of Sailor Moon.




> depower other beings,



Usagi can do this to. She can also depower them. Or create them. 



> create copies of Athena's Cloths with his Surplices,


Obviously this feat is specific to the SS Universe and so comparing it to SM-Verse is difficult....oh wait it's not. The Cosmos Crystal, Usagi's Star Seed and Power Source created as aspects of itself all other Sailor Crystals. Their are a hell of a lot more Sailor Senshi then there are of Athena's Saints (Billions vs. 88)



> attack people from other dimensions or universes,


Yeah Usagi can do this to.



> curse the souls and bodies of the living or dead,


Usagi has both curses and astral manipulation.



> manipulate reality and matter with the Big Will/9th Sense,


Usagi can manipulate both reality and matter. Honestly you could have at least added a scale to make this more challening.



> return souls to their bodies or recreate them to reinhabit,


Again, Usagi can restore people from nothingness.



> even give others immortality itself.


This is the most basic aspect of the Silver Crystal there is.



> Hell even his mere aura deflected attacks from God Cloth Pegasus Seiya that one-shotted Thanatos casually.


I never claimed Usagi has more raw power then Hades. But she is more versatile. Let's discuss some of the others she can do

Lock people inside their own attacks
Absorb people
Channel Power and Information to herself through time
Send People into Time Purgatories
Create Aspects of Herself
Etc. Etc. Etc.



> Sounds like what Hades would do to most of Sailor Moonverse then.


Hades vs. SM-Verse is an entirely separate matter. And by himself, I wouldn't be certain of Hades's victory there. Not when he would have to fight 11, Possibly 12 Beings with the Lambda Power and Chaos of course.



Fang said:


> Except astral stuff is what they do all the time. I've mentioned before and so have others that Shaka can project himself telepathically to his predecessor in the 18th century while he's already dead in the 20th with zero issue.


They attack on the astral plane, that's not the same thing as manipulating souls. If you want to say that it is, then the Sailor Senshi can do the exact thing, and all soul manipulation between the two is essentially irrelevant, reduced back to the pure power argument.




Fang said:


> >End of Time
> 
> Didn't even work against Tokisada, won't work against Shaka.


That wasn't meant to be a serious threat, just a thought of the top of my head. More importantly are the Time Purgatories, the moments between time which erase someone from existence.



Kurou said:


> Also to clarify why the star seed thing doesnt get equalized
> 
> Its like bastard
> 
> ...



That doesn't make any sense. Not everyone in Bastard!! has Eternal Atoms. In Sailor Moon EVERYONE has a Star Seed. Star Seed is one's Essence. It is one's existence. This is not a specific concept to Sailor Moon, The Saint Seiya Characters have an Essence, they exist. Therefore Equivalence dictates they have Star Seeds. If you want to claim otherwise, tell me why characters in a Hard Science-Fiction Universe are immune to Soul Manipulation because no one in verse has ever been shown to have a soul.

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## Kurou (May 11, 2016)

I said Angels and Demons

Angels


Demons


And when we have them battle other Angels

Stay with me

And Demons

From other verses

We dont give them eternal atoms


You are essentially claiming a mechanic in one universe exists in another universe on the basis that the characters are alive

That isnt how equalization works

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## Kurou (May 11, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> That's nice. Has Shaka shown ability to escape being sealed into things? Just saying x character sealed y character doesn't mean that Shaka automatically has sealing resistance. You need show him resisting being sealed or freeing himself from being sealed in an inanimate object.



You're right, afaik he has no resistance to being sealed in an inanimate object, just other dimensions,universes ect.





> Hades moving the solar system is Telekinesis feat. Not a telepathy feat. You can't interchange the two. So yeah? About those telepathy scale and resistance feats?





So what you're implying is, Hades who can move the solar system with his mind, would have weaker mental capabilities than Saga because he hasn't used it

think about that for a second



> Okay. By that logic, then none of your 6th, 7th or any other sense has zero application to Sailor Cosmos since that doesn't exist in sailor moon.




Which means when she gets hit with TH the fights over 



> (and if people truly wanted to be petty, we could say cosmos related feats has zero application to Sailor Cosmos because there is no such thing as big bang in Salor moon, but people won't be that petty here)



What does that have to do with anything

are you saying it means the saints wouldn't have powers in this fight? because you could apply that same logic to whatever shit the senshi use that powers them and claim it doesn't exist in SS and we'd have a fight with a grown ass man vs a highschool girl which would be pretty funny to watch

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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> That's nice. Has Shaka shown ability to escape being sealed into things?



Already explained he could, try reading for once.



> Just saying x character sealed y character doesn't mean that Shaka automatically has sealing resistance. You need show him resisting being sealed or freeing himself from being sealed in an inanimate object.



It absolutely means he does in this case. Shaka is superior to Dohko, there's a reason why they always turn to Shaka to this shit in the first place. Get the fuck over it. He's sealed Specters in his rosaries, who are pseudo-immortals with enhanced abilities and resistances thanks to Hades' blessings which even goes into soul resistance in the first place.

He's also resisted reality warping and transmutation, so no its not going to work against Shaka.



> Hades moving the solar system is Telekinesis feat. Not a telepathy feat.



Its a psychic feat. Hades can also forcibly mentally and physically possess even the purest soul on Earth, in this case Shun, that's a feat right there. Hades is also above Saga, who can mind control other Gold Saints with Genro Mao Ken. That's another one via basic powerscaling, that simple.



> You can't interchange the two. So yeah? About those telepathy scale and resistance feats?



Already explained why you're wrong. see above.



> Okay. By that logic, then none of your 6th, 7th or any other sense has zero application to Sailor Cosmos since that doesn't exist in sailor moon.



a) I never claimed any character in Sailor Moon had access to higher senses like Saint Seiya ones do in the rst place, work on your strawman arguments.
b) 6th Sense would still work since the 6th sense is the mind, so unless Sailor Moon characters don't have a functional brain, your claim isn't flying when Shaka goes to brain fuck her with removing it



> (and if people truly wanted to be petty, we could say cosmos related feats has zero application to Sailor Cosmos because there is no such thing as big bang in Salor moon, but people won't be that petty here)



Your desperation is absolutely and utterly adorable. That's okay, Shaka will big bang Sailor Cosmos in front of your eyes to make you into a believer.



> Since when did Melas Planetas create a universe? Last time I checked, it created a planet that was populated not a whole universe, unless there has been new development showing it created a universe full of life.[



You have zero idea of what you are talking about when it comes to Episode G or Saint Seiya in general for that matter.

And since always:

Melas Planetas is the Titans recreating their own universes when the Gold Saints invade Tartarus during their fights with them,  the main temple is the primary planet used in this, it generates a whole fucking universe to accompany it. We're even given god damn detail of other planets, stars, beings, races, and so on inhabiting it with their own accompanying signature and generation of Cosmos. It is literally shown and explained in its depiction as an entire celestial body that is the private residence and universe of its Titan creators.



> You can't powerscale abilities to everyone who is stronger than a character. That's not how it works. Unless, the character is shown to actually do that ability or is said to be able to, you can't just apply it upwards.



Sure I can. Big Will allows exactly that if you want to play it this way. That's why Gods are Gods in Saint Seiya.



> The only thing that Sailor Cosmos hasn't been shown to be able to do what you said is telekinectly align the solar system. And that's not even going to touch Sailor Cosmos. Pharaoh 90 was moving an entire galaxy and the Senshi were able to stand up to him.



Hades did this without even his real body or wearing either his Surplice or his fucking Kamui. Move a galaxy? Try creating multiple universal sized dimensions.



Imperator100 said:


> What? That doesn't make any sense. Shaka has an essence, an essence is a real concept. You're saying "Star Seeds don't exist in Saint Seiya" is akin to someone saying the cast of Star Trek don't have souls because they are never mentioned to have souls and therefore are immune to soul manipulation.



That is the worst fucking example of a metaphor I've seen lately.



> Is Sensory Manipulation a Mental Manipulation Feat or Not. You have been inconsistent, I said Sailor Cosmos can resist that because She has feats of mental manipulation resistance, you said it's not mental or matter manipulation resistance, you are now claiming it is mental manipulation resistance.



Sensory obliteration is both. It goes up to the 6th Sense, which is the mind. The only rebuttal you have is, "she countered vision loss" which isn't the same as countering losing your sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste, and mind at the same time.  Stop trying to obfuscate because its not working.



> This is the same in Sailor Moon. Planet Power has always been able to attacks ghosts and spirits, in the Battle Exam Stories the Senshi's normal attacks destroy Genius Loci. That doesn't mean the Sailor Senshi are all Multi-Galactic to Universal Soul Manipulators. If it did it would mean that it no longer matter as this fight would be just raw power again, and the astral stuff doesn't matter.



Not following remotely what you are trying to intend with this at all. Astral destruction of body-less beings, incorporeal and intangible entities, projection of souls and minds, are all standard abilities of the Gold Saints. And once again, besides Shaka, the specialists that excel in this are mainly the high tiers who have rough parity with one another.

I'm pretty comfortable with what I'm stating here.



> Still waiting for a single feat of Planetary Scale Mental Manipulation. Unless you are saying that because they can physically strike on the mental plane he is therefore a Universal Level Mental Manipulator, in which case so are the Senshi because they can do THE EXACT SAME THING. Attacking a planet, and manipulating on a plane are not the same in the same way that physical strikes and energy blasts are not the same thing as molecular manipulation.



Try again. I already spelled it out for you and its impossible to break it down any simpler then I've repeated ad naseum to throughout the thread.



> All of this is physical power.



Wrong.



> None of this is controlling or resisting mental or soul manipulation.



Wrong.



> You can claim that it is because they can hit the Mental and Soul Plane but that's not the same thing and if you equivocate them then the Sailor Senshi can do the EXACT SAME THING.



Wrong.

Melas Planetas utilized by the Titans generates life, including everything in it from the countless stars to planets to their hosts of worshipers being returned and restored both physically, psychically, and mentally. Nuts to your claim to the contrary.



> That is literally using it on one person. A person with lots of physical power, yes. But it's not a mental resistance feat.



Themis is a fucking Goddess, a Titan. Themis is a being who possess senses, perceptions, mental powers, Divine Cosmos, and even Dunamis. Affecting Themis and Iapetos > anything Sailor Cosmos has done. Stop talking like you know anything about how Saint Seiya works, Gods don't simply possess "lots of physical power", otherwise it'd be one less distinction between them and humans.



> The characters have an essence, a totality. Essence or Abstract Concept is not something that is specific to one universe. SS not having any manipulation of it does not mean the characters lack an essence. That's utterly ridiculous.



Translation: "The rules of psykers being possessed by demons in Warhammer 40k means it'll happen in Marvel with their pisonics despite the fact its not a noted characteristic at all in the Marvel universe but MUH EQUIVALENCE."

That doesn't fly.



> I already know these things. None of these is a feat of manipulation or resistance of the manipulation of minds or souls. Show me one instance of a character manipulating all the minds of a single planet at once. Show me one instance of a character manipulating hundreds of souls at once. Controlling matter or space is not the same. I know that they have enhanced mental capacities but that no more gives them resistance then High IQ would give you resistance to hypnosis.



a) Wrong
b) Yes it is
c) Shaka did just that against other Gold Saints and the Specters of Hades Army
d) Shaka specializes in destroying minds and souls and forcing people to go through reincarnation against their will
e) Wrong again
d) Having a High IQ does not give anyone an innate resistance, a street smart conman can easily manipulate a book smart naive person



> Usagi has, literally, billions of powersets. I have not even scratched the surface of what she can do. She wields the Lambda Power of which every other Planet Power is an aspect, and there are confirmed at least billions. I can continue to go down on all the things Usagi can do, for quite a long time. She has a very very very versatile and diverse arsenal.



Yeah and what relevance is that to her not getting her ass beaten to the curb by Hades?



> What are Asmita's feats of Time Stop? How large an area does it affect, how long is it maintained, etc.



Asmita did it "astrally", from a completely different dimension and maintained it for as long as it took casually to have a long conversation with the person he wanted to talk to in Makai. So for as long as he wants it to be.



> Because unlike them Usagi can throw people into "Time Purgatories", the places between moments of time which erases the existence of all that fall in.



Again: I'll wait for Nevermind or Movement to hear on this claim's validity.



> Concession accepted.



Nope.



> Under what logic? Pharaoh 90 was absorbing matter, energy, and even to some extent spacetime within itself. Virgo Shaka is still made of matter and energy. He MAY be able to resurrect from being absorbed, but being absorbed means Usagi in this case would gain all his abilities.



Absorbing space-time? So affecting dimensions? Not impressed.

>Absorbed by Usagi

Not happening. Especially not with him possessing his God Gold Cloth and his abilities and powers kicked up past the scales.



> Both of which Usagi can do. Hell Usagi can restore people from nothingness.



And plenty of characters can create from nothingness, again not impressed.



> Lambda Power may be able to do this. Regardless, how does this relate to Shaka?



>may be able to do this
>may

How does it relate to Shaka? He mastered the 8th Sense, and did so while being obliterated by a fucking Big Bang, and afterwards lolnopped Hades' influence on his body and soul in his own private dominion which is Makai.



> I never claimed Usagi had more raw power then Hades. But are you claiming that Virgo Shaka, even with God Cloth, has this level of power?



I'm claiming that a weaker version of Shaka was already fighting people who are roughly on par with Hades even before he had his God Gold Cloth was able to affect them with his senses removal and mental powers. Why is Cosmos not going to have that happen to her?



> Possession is the Poor's Man Brainwashing.



No it isn't when said victims are beings with plenty of psychic, energy, and spiritual power of their own to resist it in the first place.



> Oooooooh, the Solar System. Come on, Usagi, Shaka, and Hades are all way above this. The Lambda Power recreated the cosmos at the end of Sailor Moon.



>mention a feat where Hades does it while not remotely at full power as a bit showing
>without even in his real body
>or wearing his Surplice or his Kamui



> Usagi can do this to. She can also depower them. Or create them.



She depowered a dozen beings on par with the Gold Saints? I somehow doubt that.



> Obviously this feat is specific to the SS Universe and so comparing it to SM-Verse is difficult....oh wait it's not. The Cosmos Crystal, Usagi's Star Seed and Power Source created as aspects of itself all other Sailor Crystals. Their are a hell of a lot more Sailor Senshi then there are of Athena's Saints (Billions vs. 88)



There are more Cybermen then there are Daleks.
That doesn't help the Cybermen at all.

It'll be the same case for the Sailor Scouts.

Also how is it "specific" to the Saint Seiya verse at all? He recreated several mystical armors that have their own massive energy sources and signatures.



> Yeah Usagi can do this to.



So does everyone in Saint Seiya and their mother to boot. Probably not as good as Hades though.



> Usagi has both curses and astral manipulation.[./quote]
> 
> So do most mid tiers and up in Saint Seiya. Once again, it took a focused big bang to overcome Shaka's Tenbu Horin's power.  And even then just barely.
> 
> ...



And Shaka still wins.



> That wasn't meant to be a serious threat, just a thought of the top of my head. More importantly are the Time Purgatories, the moments between time which erase someone from existence.



Once again, didn't stop Tokisada, whose only a mid-tier as the Aquarius Gold Saint in Omega. Won't work on Shaka, assuming of course, this is what you claim as the truth is actually valid in the first place.



> That doesn't make any sense. Not everyone in Bastard!! has Eternal Atoms. In Sailor Moon EVERYONE has a Star Seed. Star Seed is one's Essence. It is one's existence. This is not a specific concept to Sailor Moon, The Saint Seiya Characters have an Essence, they exist. Therefore Equivalence dictates they have Star Seeds. If you want to claim otherwise, tell me why characters in a Hard Science-Fiction Universe are immune to Soul Manipulation because no one in verse has ever been shown to have a soul.



Not everyone has a Cosmos in Saint Seiya or even the capacity to utilize or train it despite it being the "basis" of existence. So again, there will be no overlap between Star Seeds and Cosmos in the match up.

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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

Kurou said:


> You're right, afaik he has no resistance to being sealed in an inanimate object, just other dimensions,universes ect.



He's actually resisted transmutation before. Even Aiollia's teenage scrub ass was resisting reality warping via a Dunamais wave attack from Pontus in G.



> are you saying it means the saints wouldn't have powers in this fight? because you could apply that same logic to whatever shit the senshi use that powers them and claim it doesn't exist in SS and we'd have a fight with a grown ass man vs a highschool girl which would be pretty funny to watch



Tbh be pretty hilarious watching Shaka pummel a bitch to death with his rosaries while telling her she's gonna reincarnate as a pig or something.

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## SF latif (May 11, 2016)

fun fact; Saints have the ability to perform "miracles" as in the ability to make impossible possible. 0.00000000000000000000000001 % becomes 1% or higher through burning ones cosmos

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## Agent9149 (May 11, 2016)

Kurou said:


> You're right, afaik he has no resistance to being sealed in an inanimate object, just other dimensions,universes ect.



Alright. Thank you.



Kurou said:


> So what you're implying is, Hades who can move the solar system with his mind, would have weaker mental capabilities than Saga because he hasn't used it
> 
> think about that for a second



Telekinesis and Telepathy can't be interchanged. Their two distinct powers.



Fang said:


> Already explained he could, try reading for once.



No you haven't. YOU should try reading because you haven't yet answered my question. Kurou did though and the answer was no.



Fang said:


> It absolutely means he does in this case. Shaka is superior to Dohko, there's a reason why they always turn to Shaka to this shit in the first place. Get the fuck over it. He's sealed Specters in his rosaries, who are pseudo-immortals with enhanced abilities and resistances thanks to Hades' blessings which even goes into soul resistance in the first place.
> 
> He's also resisted reality warping and transmutation, so no its not going to work against Shaka.



That has literally nothing to do with what I asked. I've already told you the sealing has nothing to do with transmutation. And resisting one feat of reality warping doesn't mean your resistant to all feats of reality warping. That's not how it works. What specific feat of reality warping did Shaka reisist?



Fang said:


> Its a psychic feat. Hades can also forcibly mentally and physically possess even the purest soul on Earth, in this case Shun, that's a feat right there. Hades is also above Saga, who can mind control other Gold Saints with Genro Mao Ken. That's another one via basic powerscaling, that simple



I've already said telekinesis and telepathy can't be used interchangeably. They're two different abilities.  

That's like saying, character x is immune to electricity because character x is immune to fire. Fire and electricity are both forms of energy so resistance to one is resistance to the other.

See my point?



Fang said:


> a) I never claimed any character in Sailor Moon had access to higher senses like Saint Seiya ones do in the rst place, work on your strawman arguments.
> b) 6th Sense would still work since the 6th sense is the mind, so unless Sailor Moon characters don't have a functional brain, your claim isn't flying when Shaka goes to brain fuck her with removing it



No. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Starseeds are basic tenant of existence in Sailor Moon verse. If Sailor Cosmos can't use her power of manipulating starseeds, which is basically manipulating the existence of things towards Shaka, Shaka can't use his 6th sense on Sailor Cosmos.

"so unless Saint Seiya characters don't have a functional existence, your claim isn't flying when Sailor Cosmos goes to existence fuck him"



Fang said:


> Melas Planetas is the Titans recreating their own universes when the Gold Saints invade Tartarus during their fights with them, the main temple is the primary planet used in this, it generates a whole fucking universe to accompany it. We're even given god damn detail of other planets, stars, beings, races, and so on inhabiting it with their own accompanying signature and generation of Cosmos. It is literally shown and explained in its depiction as an entire celestial body that is the private residence and universe of its Titan creators.



I have only seen Melas Planetas shown and said to have a planet created with life that can be manipulated. Not a whole universe of planets. Are you sure you're not confusing Titans creating universes to the specific technique Melas Planetas?

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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> No you haven't. YOU should try reading because you haven't yet answered my question. Kurou did though and the answer was no.



Wrong, and Kurou was incorrect. Shaka has resisted transmutation and weaker Gold Saints have resisted reality warping from beings more powerful then most in Sailor Moon. Especially when he admitted just earlier he forgotten about the original series and hadn't read much of Episode G.

Try again.



> That has literally nothing to do with what I asked. I've already told you the sealing has nothing to do with transmutation. And resisting one feat of reality warping doesn't mean your resistant to all feats of reality warping. That's not how it works. What specific feat of reality warping did Shaka reisist?



Try learning how to read and utilizing reading comprehension, it'll help you in the future, in other debate threads. Reality warping in general is superior to any form of specific transmutation, those are our standards in the OBD. And resisting reality warping from beings superior to Sailor Cosmos is certainly a safe bet whatever she tries with it will absolutely not work.



> I've already said telekinesis and telepathy can't be used interchangeably.



No shit, really?



> They're two different abilities.



Duh. Good thing Hades has his psychic and mental powers to powerscale from Shaka, Saga, and other characters in Saint Seiya.



> That's like saying, character x is immune to electricity because character x is immune to fire. Fire and electricity are both forms of energy so resistance to one is resistance to the other.



If a character shows specific resistance to fire, then they are specifically immune to fire. If a character is specifically immune to energy in all forms, then they are. Stop trying to make a goofy apples to oranges argument.



> See my point?



I would if you actually had one not filled with utterly inane nonsense.



> No. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Starseeds are basic tenant of existence in Sailor Moon verse. If Sailor Cosmos can't use her power of manipulating starseeds, which is basically manipulating the existence of things towards Shaka, Shaka can't use his 6th sense on Sailor Cosmos.



I can totally have my cake and eat it. The 6th sense in the real world is the human mind, she possess a mind, she's still royally ass-fucked in said scenario. Both of them have eyes, both them have hearing, both of them have taste, touch, and smelling, and both have brains.

Whoops there's equivalence right there.



> *snip*



Also explain how possession is a "telekinetic" feat, my backpedaling friend.



> I have only seen Melas Planetas shown and said to have a planet created with life that can be manipulated. Not a whole universe of planets. Are you sure you're not confusing Titans creating universes to the specific technique Melas Planetas?



No, you have zero idea what the hell you are talking about here.

They generate an entire fucking dimension, said dimension is the size of a universe as commented by Aiolia and the other Gold Saints and confirmed again by every single Titan whose used Melas Planetas, I don't pretend to be an expert on Sailor Moon but don't try and gain say things that have been explained to death with the Titans powers. Melas Planetas is them residing and recreating their own private universes; not just the main planet but also every star, aspect of time and space, Cosmos energy, and matter with even their Dunamis.

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## Kurou (May 11, 2016)

Tbf

I said as far as I know he had no feats of resisting something like that. Im not far into G and my memory of the original isnt the best

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## Fang (May 11, 2016)

You should know better Niggerou


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> Wrong, and Kurou was incorrect. Shaka has resisted transmutation and weaker Gold Saints have resisted reality warping from beings more powerful then most in Sailor Moon. Especially when he admitted just earlier he forgotten about the original series and hadn't read much of Episode G.



You keep  bringing up transmutation, yet I keep telling you the sealing has nothing to do with transmutation. Unless you can show Shaka resisting or freeing himself from being sealed inside a inanimate object or non-corpeal attack? He gets done in by that. Kurou said he hasn't shown that. You keep bringing up resistance to transmutation which has nothing to do with this.



Fang said:


> Try learning how to read and utilizing reading comprehension, it'll help you in the future, in other debate threads. Reality warping in general is superior to any form of specific transmutation, those are our standards in the OBD. And resisting reality warping from beings superior to Sailor Cosmos is certainly a safe bet whatever she tries with it will absolutely not work.



Again with the transmutation bullshit? Yeah, I'm the one who needs to learn to read?

Sailor Cosmos can create and manipulate the source of creation. She has primordial Force Manipulation. Unless Shaka has resisted reality warping powers from someone who wields the power that created everything and everyone in the entire metaworld, he's not resisting the reality warping power of Sailor Cosmos.  



Fang said:


> Also explain how possession is a "telekinetic" feat, my backpedaling friend.



Possession more concerns soul manipulation, spirits, and astral fuckery. Not actual telepathy. What you're looking for is mind control?

And Sailor Cosmos has resistance to possession, mind control, and can exorcise beings that possess others. So? What's your point again? 



Fang said:


> I can totally have my cake and eat it. The 6th sense in the real world is the human mind, she possess a mind, she's still royally ass-fucked in said scenario. Both of them have eyes, both them have hearing, both of them have taste, touch, and smelling, and both have brains.
> 
> Whoops there's equivalence right there.



Yeah. No. 6th sense isn't a real thing in the world.

You said it yourself, the only equivalency rule applies to energy sources. So, if Shaka doesn't have a starseed that Sailor Cosmos can manipulate. Sailor Cosmos doesn't have a 6th sense that Shaka can manipulate.

You want to use this technicality, so can I!


And I rescind on the Melas Planetes.

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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> You keep  bringing up transmutation, yet I keep telling you the sealing has nothing to do with transmutation. Unless you can show Shaka resisting or freeing himself from being sealed inside a inanimate object or non-corpeal attack? He gets done in by that. Kurou said he hasn't shown that. You keep bringing up resistance to transmutation which has nothing to do with this.



You keep repeating the same debunked and tired out argument that's been disproven before. Shaka is above Alderbaran and Aiolia who have resisted outright reality warping and matter manipulation from  the Titans. Reality Warping > Transmutation.

That simple.

And I already explained why Kurou is wrong, which he admitted to himself, you unending broken record. Do you only cherry pick the post where he said one thing then rescinded it the next when admitting he has less knowledge then me on the subject matter?



> Again with the transmutation bullshit? Yeah, I'm the one who needs to learn to read?



>all this wrong

All you've repeated ad naseum is bullshit about transmutation crap, I've explained his feats. Work on it. Reality warping trumps any of that. A God more powerful then Cosmos had his attempt to curse and transform Aiolia with his Dunamis reality warping nullified after some intial success against the Leo Gold Saint who hadn't even mastered the 7th Sense fully yet.

No one is buying it "transmutation" working against Shaka.



> Sailor Cosmos can create and manipulate the source of creation. She has primordial Force Manipulation. Unless Shaka has resisted reality warping powers from someone who wields the power that created everything and everyone in the entire metaworld, he's not resisting the reality warping power of Sailor Cosmos.



>metaworld

And yeah, what the hell do you think Cosmos and Dunamis in Saint Seiya are?



> Possession more concerns soul manipulation, spirits, and astral fuckery. Not actual telepathy. What you're looking for is mind control?



Possession that requires overpowering the victim's willpower, mental strength, and body can be construed as fucking mind control. Possession comes in various different forms and formats, not just one universal standard.



> And Sailor Cosmos has resistance to possession, mind control, and can exorcise beings that possess others. So? What's your point again?



>someone admitted earlier Cosmos only resisted having her sight removed
>no mention of having all of her senses removed
>no mention of her having remotely the same type of power generation or output of Hades

Not seeing it working against him.



> Yeah. No. 6th sense isn't a real thing in the world.



Except it is. Our ability to think, our "intangible" mind is believed to be the actual sixth sense. Not the fucking moniker for psychic or ESP related abilities.



> You said it yourself, the only equivalency rule applies to energy sources. So, if Shaka doesn't have a starseed that Sailor Cosmos can manipulate. Sailor Cosmos doesn't have a 6th sense that Shaka can manipulate.



She has a sense of vision.
She has a sense of smell.
She has a sense of taste.
She has a sense of hearing.
She has a sense of touch.

Even ignoring the brain/mind, she has physical senses here.

Seems pretty fucked to me, lad.



> You want to use this technicality, so can I!



The issue is it doesn't work for you because sensory manipulation doesn't relay on any energy system overlap at all with the OBD equivalence rule.

So nah, it doesn't work for you in this case ere.

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## Kurou (May 12, 2016)

I already said, if you want to discount her having a 6th sense ect thats fine. It just means she has no counter to tenbu horin so as soon as she gets hit with it the fights over


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## Nevermind (May 12, 2016)

Most of Cosmos' haxes probably won't work against Shaka. Certainly any kind of mental haxes are getting her nowhere.

But the whole thing about a star seed - they are basically the immortal soul, as they get reborn again and again. So Shaka SHOULD have one.

Regardless though, how good is Shaka's soulfuck resistance overall? Since the Lambda Power was basically a purification and reset of the galaxy including all the souls in it. Recall that Galaxia basically wiped out all life prior, and Usagi revived all those planets and souls, so that's pretty powerful soul manipulation. You're going to need pretty powerful resistance.

Second, what are Shaka's feats of resistance to time stops, time manipulation, timeline BFR, etc? As far as I can remember, he has none.

Cosmos can theoretically seal him into the Silver Crystal like Queen Serenity did with Nehellenia, BUT Shaka is quite a bit above her paygrade so I'm not sure it will work.



Agent9149 said:


> She can seal people inside their own attacks. For example, if you shot a laser beam at her she would seal you inside the actual laserbeam.



Are you talking about scaling from what Nehellenia did? It could theoretically work, but the 7th and 8th senses might prevent it from working.


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## SF latif (May 12, 2016)

Nevermind said:


> Regardless though, how good is Shaka's soulfuck resistance overall?


it`s pretty decent. Ikki with the 7th Sense could have his soul travel across space-time and planes of existence, and he nullified the attack



Nevermind said:


> Second, what are Shaka's feats of resistance to time stops, time manipulation, timeline BFR, etc? As far as I can remember, he has none.


shaka travelled back to 18th centuary to save shun from shijami, and he is higher than 3 judges who resisted time-maniplulation on a fundamental, not to mention bronze saints in omega did it very casually tbh.


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> You keep repeating the same debunked and tired out argument that's been disproven before. Shaka is above Alderbaran and Aiolia who have resisted outright reality warping and matter manipulation from the Titans. Reality Warping > Transmutation.
> 
> That simple.
> 
> ...



I'm done with this. The only person going around in circles is you. This isn't cursing or transforming or transmutation. This is ridiculous.

You have zero feats of Shaka resisting or freeing himself from being sealed inside an inanimate object or incorporal attack.

He gets put inside a rock and gently placed on a shelf.

The fact that Hades himself can be sealed inside beads, means Shaka is very vulnerable to this. Unless, shaka is stronger than Hades?



Fang said:


> Possession that requires overpowering the victim's willpower, mental strength, and body can be construed as fucking mind control. Possession comes in various different forms and formats, not just one universal standard.



Yeah, construed by you to fit the meaning. And I've already told you it won't work, Sailor Cosmos can exorcise possessions and can possess others.



Fang said:


> Except it is. Our ability to think, our "intangible" mind is believed to be the actual sixth sense. Not the fucking moniker for psychic or ESP related abilities.



Is this the part we put on our foil hats?



Fang said:


> She has a sense of vision.
> She has a sense of smell.
> She has a sense of taste.
> She has a sense of hearing.
> ...





Fang said:


> >someone admitted earlier Cosmos only resisted having her sight removed
> >no mention of having all of her senses removed
> >no mention of her having remotely the same type of power generation or output of Hades
> 
> Not seeing it working against him.





Kurou said:


> I already said, if you want to discount her having a 6th sense ect thats fine. It just means she has no counter to tenbu horin so as soon as she gets hit with it the fights over



Except she has healing powers and can encase herself in crystal to undergo healing to revert back to her regular form. While in the crystal she goes in a comatose state but can still fight, use her powers through her willpower and bending space and time. She doesn't need her senses to fight. She doesn't even need to be in the same space and time to fight.



Nevermind said:


> Are you talking about scaling from what Nehellenia did? It could theoretically work, but the 7th and 8th senses might prevent it from working.



The 8th sense has to do with death and resurrection. It won't apply here because he wouldn't be dead. He'd be locked inside the attack.

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## Qinglong (May 12, 2016)

Hades was never sealed in the rosary the fuck are you talking about

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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I'm done with this. The only person going around in circles is you. This isn't cursing or transforming or transmutation. This is ridiculous.



"No u"

Not working.



> You have zero feats of Shaka resisting or freeing himself from being sealed inside an inanimate object or incorporal attack.



I've already provided them, get over it.



> He gets put inside a rock and gently placed on a shelf.



Not happening.

Reality warping > Transmutation for the untold time. Its not working.



> The fact that Hades himself can be sealed inside beads, means Shaka is very vulnerable to this. Unless, shaka is stronger than Hades?



Hades was never sealed inside any fucking rosaries, you mook. The seal at the Rozan Peaks is a completely different thing altogether. You're awful at this.



> Yeah, construed by you to fit the meaning. And I've already told you it won't work, Sailor Cosmos can exorcise possessions and can possess others.



Try again with that bullshit. No one is buying your claims. Possession comes in different forms, including the type that overwhelms mental powers and senses. Not buying it.



> Is this the part we put on our foil hats?



Seeing as how half your claims are full of shit and the other half are reaching around nonsense you made up on the spot regarding Saint Seiya, you already seem to have done that. Don't try this pot to kettle crap with me.



> Except she has healing powers and can encase herself in crystal to undergo healing to revert back to her regular form. While in the crystal she goes in a comatose state but can still fight, use her powers through her willpower and bending space and time. She doesn't need her senses to fight. She doesn't even need to be in the same space and time to fight.



t. bullshit

>never dealt with complete sensory loss of self
>never dealt with mind loss of self
>never dealt with psychic loss of sellf

Not happening.

Actually if you want to go this route, let's see 7th Sense allows the creation of divine miracles and literal deus ex machinas. Even Gold Saints who can resist regular sensory and mind affecting attacks couldn't deal with Shaka's Tenbu Horin without hitting him with a fucking focused Big Bang.

Shaka wins.



> The 8th sense has to do with death and resurrection. It won't apply here because he wouldn't be dead. He'd be locked inside the attack.



>weaker characters have resisted reality warping, petrification, and transformation and even divine curses
>Shaka even dead can telepathically travel back in time and sense alternations in time lines while communicating with his predecessor in the 18th century thanks to the 8th Sense

Nope.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## God Movement (May 12, 2016)

Also Agent, post up scans for the various haxes you're talking about.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

>gets transformed into a demonized form of himself
>still is able to reach an unstable form of the 7th Sense and counter it
>from fucking PONTUS
>"he gets sealed lol"

top kek


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Hades was never sealed in the rosary the fuck are you talking about



Sorry, I mixed up your previous statments in the this post about about Dohko sealing the spectres in the roasaries and sealing hades.



Fang said:


> I've already provided them, get over it.





Fang said:


> Not happening.
> 
> Reality warping > Transmutation for the untold time. Its not working.



No you haven't. IT'S NOT TRANSMUTATION!

What part of that don't you fucking understand? Resisting transmuation or reality warping doens't mean you can automatically resist being sealed inside objects or an incorporal attack. You need specific feats of resisting that ability.



Fang said:


> Try again with that bullshit. No one is buying your claims. Possession comes in different forms, including the type that overwhelms mental powers and senses. Not buying it.



Possession doesn't work. I already told you she can exorcise those that possess things.



Fang said:


> >never dealt with complete sensory loss of self
> >never dealt with mind loss of self
> >never dealt with psychic loss of
> 
> Not happening.



I've already told you she doesn't need her senses to fight. Neo Queen Serenity's entire body and self were inanimate and locked away. She was still able to fight by sending her power through space and time.

She has dealth with mind loss of self and psychic loss. She did so when facing the River of Oblivion. Which she controlls, and was able to resist it! Also the River of Rememberence can counteract this things. Which she controls.



Fang said:


> >weaker characters have resisted reality warping, petrification, and transformation and even divine curses
> >Shaka even dead can telepathically travel back in time and sense alternations in time lines while communicating with his predecessor in the 18th century



That doesn't sound like freeing yourself from being sealed. I'm talking about a specific action here.

You keep bringing up vague and general abilities that have nothing to do with the specific action of sealing.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> *snip*





Fang said:


> "No u"
> 
> Not working.
> 
> ...


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## SF latif (May 12, 2016)

curious, is that aiolia resisting reality warping?


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## Toaa (May 12, 2016)

Scans for sailor moon?


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> >gets transformed into a demonized form of himself
> >still is able to reach an unstable form of the 7th Sense and counter it
> >from fucking PONTUS
> >"he gets sealed lol"
> ...



I'm really at a loss of understanding how you think "transforming someone" and "sealing someone" are interchangeable actions?

And what are those scans supposed to show? It doesn't show him resisting being sealed or freeing himself from inside a seal?




God Movement said:


> Also Agent, post up scans for the various haxes you're talking about.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> *snip*





Fang said:


> "No u"
> 
> Not working.
> 
> ...





Fang said:


> >gets transformed into a demonized form of himself
> >still is able to reach an unstable form of the 7th Sense and counter it
> >from fucking PONTUS
> >"he gets sealed lol"
> ...


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

These scans don't even say anything you're talking about.

Nor mention or show sealing.



SF latif said:


> curious, is that aiolia resisting reality warping?



Nope. It's the Titan showing and speaking about his powers and then using it to break the lions fangs, which would probably refer to his arm that is being broken. The titan says he's break his soul and his arms.

And the Aiola is asking himself what it means to fight.

Unless further pages explains this power to be reality warping? The scan does say anything about that.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

"I have zero idea of what I'm talking about but here's my speculation about the earlier scenes with the Dunamis wave"

Keep grasping at those straws.

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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

You posted the scan. I can translate the Spanish. They don't' add up to what you were saying.

I'm not grasping at straws.


I asked for feats of Shaka resisting being sealed or freeing himself from being sealed.

You give me scans of a different character having his arm being broken. And say that's proof.

Really now?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

>Pontus
>"Titan"

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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Now you go from Spanish to Japanese.

Still haven't shown what I asked for though?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> You posted the scan. I can translate the Spanish.



Your Spanish is pretty terrible if you think Pontus is a Titan or ever referred to himself in that scan. 



> They don't' add up to what you were saying.



It totally does.



> I'm not grasping at straws.



You totally are here. You have zero idea of what you are talking about when it comes to Saint Seiya, understanding how their powers works, or even the most rudimentary concept that reality warping trumps any transmutation bullshit.

No one is buying what you are claiming.

Not one person.



> I asked for feats of Shaka resisting being sealed or freeing himself from being sealed.



They have been provided in spades.



> You give me scans of a different character having his arm being broken. And say that's proof.
> 
> Really now?



>post scans of Aiolia resisting being reality warped into a demon version of himself from Pontus
>Aiolia whose vastly below Shaka
>Aiolia who hasn't even mastered the 7th Sense
>or Alderbaran who can withstand the scale of all of humanity's sins being weighed against him 
>whose vastly below Shaka
>Same Shaka who even when dead and "sealed" by the Gods for his part along with the other Gold Saints in rebelling against Hades can still travel back in time and into a different timeline altogether to communicate with his predecessor
"no feats"

Dumb.

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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Now you go from Spanish to Japanese.
> 
> Still haven't shown what I asked for though?



You're blind if you think I posted the raw just to change the language.

Also again:

>Pontus
>Titan
>"Hades was sealed in a bead"
>"Melas Planteas is just a planet"
>"Sailor Cosmos doesn't have a brain"

This is some Lionel tier bullshit. In fact catching back, even Nevermind, the foremost expert on Sailor Moon, isn't even buying most of your claims, I think its settled who wins this and it no Sailor Cosmos sonny.

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## Id (May 12, 2016)

Its difficult to see anyone "seal" Shaka. Since sealing is his bread and butter. Spiritual manipulation and sealing is part of his arsenal.

We know that he mastered the art of sealing the mind, along with 7 human senses.

As we have seen him undo the immortality of the Specters, by sealing the their essence within the beads of the rosemary.

In Episode G, he sealed the mystical beasts who where returning to modern time. He attempted to seal the 12 Titans and nearly succeded, but that's above his paygrade.

So no, I don't see him being sealed since he has atomic control of his body, mind and soul. And with Agyo he is effectively a universal force.

Shaka would need to be beaten down first, before Sailor Cosmo can attempt her sealing abilities.

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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> >post scans of Aiolia resisting being reality warped into a demon version of himself from Pontus
> >Aiolia whose vastly below Shaka
> >Aiolia who hasn't even mastered the 7th Sense
> >or Alderbaran who can withstand the scale of all of humanity's sins being weighed against him
> >whose vastly below Shaka.



It's like I'm taking crazy pills here.

I ask for scans of resistance to being sealed inside an inanimate object or incorporal attack or freeing onseself from being said sealing.

You show me a scan of someone being transformed and called that proof?

What?



Fang said:


> >Same Shaka who even when dead and "sealed" by the Gods for his part along with the other Gold Saints in rebelling against Hades can still travel back in time and into a different timeline altogether to communicate with his predecessor
> "no feats"



Okay. We're getting somewhere. Can you explain being dead and sealed or show scans of that?



Fang said:


> >Pontus
> >Titan
> >"Hades was sealed in a bead"
> >"Melas Planteas is just a planet"
> >"Sailor Cosmos doesn't have a brain"



Oh no, i mistook Pontus of being a titan! The horror! Like you said, he doesn't name himself in the scan. Sue me

I already admitted my mistake. I mixed up your statement of Dohko sealing the spectres into the beads with what you said about the sealing of hades.

And I told you I recinded my Meles Planetes inquiry.

I never said Cosmos doesn't have a brain. I said she doesn't have sixth sense.

Anymore strawmen?



Id said:


> Its difficult to see anyone "seal" Shaka. Since sealing is his bread and butter. Spiritual manipulation and sealing is part of his arsenal.
> 
> We know that he mastered the art of sealing the mind, along with 7 human senses.
> 
> ...




That's kind of a fallacy. Characters in sailor moon have sealing powers as well. Unless he's shown resistance you can't just assume he has resistance.  It's like saying someone is resistant to be being shot because their good at shooting.

Sailor Cosmos is a universal force as well. The Galaxy Cauldron, the source of everything in the universe.  She has full control of that. Also eternal sailor moon's silver crystal created all the energy in the universe, plus ESM has the power of the golden crystal and pink crystal which have equal power to the silver crystal too, giving her atleast 3x the energy of the universe. This power was used to destroy Queen Nehellenia and her mirror world which is referenced as parallel universe and an alternate world to Sailor Moon's reality.[/QUOTE]


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## Qinglong (May 12, 2016)

"I am different from the titans. Since time immemorial I've walked this earth, recognized as a great God. I am Pontus, the Black Sea which gives life to all"

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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> It's like I'm taking crazy pills here.



You are crazy if you think your arguments are working.



> I ask for scans of resistance to being sealed inside an inanimate object or incorporal attack or freeing onseself from being said sealing.



Sensory destruction isn't corporeal.
Mind destruction isn't corporeal.
Reincarnation isn't corporeal.
Soul and astral attacks aren't corporeal.

Gold Saints also specialize in illusionary attacks across multiple dimensions. Dohko whose Shion's equal and both below Shaka did this from the Rozan Peaks while STILL maintaining the seal on Hades and his army against Pontus to help save Aiolia from the Primordial God's attack; and to add, without using his real body.

And I already provided evidence and repeated fucking feats of Shaka sealing others and countering those powers.



> You show me a scan of someone being transformed and called that proof?
> 
> What?



I showed you a scan of Aiolia resisting fucking reality warping straight up. However long that'll take to burn into your own understanding isn't my problem here. I also repeated with Alderbaran, the weakest of the Gold Saints, was capable of countering an esoteric power that judges human sins and he was able to lift and counter the scales of all of mankind's failures, which frankly an incredibly abstract ability.



> Okay. We're getting somewhere. Can you explain being dead and sealed or show scans of that?



I already explained this. He was dead. He was sealed by the other Gods at the end of the main story, we know in Next Dimension that Shaka communicates through Andromeda Shun in the 18th Century with his predecessor, Virgo Shijima, to make him understand that the Bronze Saints are not the Sanctuary's enemies after Chronos, the Primordial God of Time, sends her and Shun back in time.

Gold Saints have been dead since the end of the Hades arc when they blew up a portion of the Wailing Wall to let the Bronzes travel to Elysium.



> Oh no, i mistook Pontus of being a titan! The horror! Like you said, he doesn't name himself in the scan. Sue me



"I am different from the Titans. Since time immemorial I've walked this earth, recognized as a great God. I am Pontus, the Black Sea which gives life to all."



> I never said Cosmos doesn't have a brain. I said she doesn't have sixth sense.



You claimed before if there was no overlap between Cosmos in Saint Seiya with Star Seeds or whatever that sensory and mind destruction wouldn't work on her even if she had a brain, mate.



> Anymore strawmen?



Work on your fallacies, because that is no strawman.

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## Kurou (May 12, 2016)

Yoooo this reaching


You should probablu chill out before you end up looking like Mr. Fantastic

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Id (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> That's kind of a fallacy. Characters in sailor moon have sealing powers as well. Unless he's shown resistance you can't just assume he has resistance.  It's like saying someone is resistant to be being shot because their good at shooting.
> 
> Sailor Cosmos is a universal force as well. The Galaxy Cauldron, the source of everything in the universe.  She has full control of that. Also eternal sailor moon's silver crystal created all the energy in the universe, plus ESM has the power of the golden crystal and pink crystal which have equal power to the silver crystal too, giving her atleast 3x the energy of the universe. This power was used to destroy Queen Nehellenia and her mirror world which is referenced as parallel universe and an alternate world to Sailor Moon's reality.


I don't see a no limit fallacy here. Just you asking me to prove a negative.

Shaka cosmic powers grant him spiritual and matter manipulation. Said abilities can be drawn inward or extended outward.

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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> Sensory destruction isn't corporeal.
> Mind destruction isn't corporeal.
> Reincarnation isn't corporeal.
> Soul and astral attacks aren't corporeal.
> ...



I don't know why you're telling these attacks aren't corporeal? I said, She can seal people inside incorporeal attacks. I never said these attacks aren't incorporeal.

Illusionary attacks across multiple dimensions is nothing that Cosmos can't deal with. And has been dealt before.




Fang said:


> I showed you a scan of Aiolia resisting fucking reality warping straight up. However long that'll take to burn into your own understanding isn't my problem here. I also repeated with Alderbaran, the weakest of the Gold Saints, was capable of countering an esoteric power that judges human sins and he was able to lift and counter the scales of all of mankind's failures, which frankly an incredibly abstract ability.



Resisting being transformed isn't proof that Shaka can't be sealed. And it's not proof to reisist all reality warping attacks.



Fang said:


> I already explained this. He was dead. He was sealed by the other Gods at the end of the main story, we know in Next Dimension that Shaka communicates through Andromeda Shun in the 18th Century with his predecessor, Virgo Shijima, to make him understand that the Bronze Saints are not the Sanctuary's enemies after Chronos, the Primordial God of Time, sends her and Shun back in time.
> 
> Gold Saints have been dead since the end of the Hades arc when they blew up a portion of the Wailing Wall to let the Bronzes travel to Elysium.



What was he sealed into?



Fang said:


> "I am different from the Titans. Since time immemorial I've walked this earth, recognized as a great God. I am Pontus, the Black Sea which gives life to all."



It actually reads, "I come from the beginning of the world, from prehistoric eras. I have already been a gigantic God. I am Pontos, the dark ocean that creates life"

Don't know how I missed that. Whoops. I was being dumb on that one.



Fang said:


> You claimed before if there was no overlap between Cosmos in Saint Seiya with Star Seeds or whatever that sensory and mind destruction wouldn't work on her even if she had a brain, mate.



I said the sixth sense manipulation won't work with because she doesn't have one. I never said the other sensory powers

I've already said she has mind resistance, and resisted her mind being lost in the sea of oblivion. Has direct access to a river that restores minds. I told you she has healing powers and can does need her senses to attack and can act in a comatose state.



Id said:


> I don't see a no limit fallacy here. Just you asking me to prove a negative.
> 
> Shaka cosmic powers grant him spiritual and matter manipulation. Said abilities can be drawn inward or extended outward.



I'm not asking you to prove a fallacy. It's just that being good at sealing doesn't automatically mean you're able to resist sealing or are immune to sealing.

Sailor Moon and other characters are powerful at sealing, yet they've been shown to be able to sealed themselves and have shown to be able to break out of those seals in various ways.

And Sailor Cosmos has spiritual and matter manipulation on a Universal Level.


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## Id (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I'm not asking you to prove a fallacy. It's just that being good at sealing doesn't automatically mean you're able to resist sealing or are immune to sealing.
> 
> Sailor Moon and other characters are powerful at sealing, yet they've been shown to be able to sealed themselves and have shown to be able to break out of those seals in various ways.
> 
> And Sailor Cosmos has spiritual and matter manipulation on a Universal Level.


Ok moving forward, the reasons as to why Sealing Shaka may not work is for the reasons mentioned above.

Its good she is a universal force, at this point every other foe the Gold or Bronze saints come across with are universal foes. if she was any weaker,  she would get crushed.

Like how Amir Khan got crushed by the Mexican Ginger.


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## Nevermind (May 12, 2016)

Welp.

Not sure this thread is salvageable at this point.


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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I don't know why you're telling these attacks aren't corporeal? I said, She can seal people inside incorporeal attacks. I never said these attacks aren't incorporeal.



Not someone of Shaka's caliber she can't.



> Illusionary attacks across multiple dimensions is nothing that Cosmos can't deal with. And has been dealt before.



I already said it was a basic ability. Now does Cosmos remotely stack or scale to Pontus, a God whose above the average Titan? Somehow I doubt that.



> Resisting being transformed isn't proof that Shaka can't be sealed. And it's not proof to reisist all reality warping attacks.-



Maybe if we're talking Mad Jim Jaspers, Franklin Richards, or their ilk, then sure. But everything you've told me so far doesn't remotely put Sailor Cosmos anywhere near those big dogs. Resisting an outright attempt at being reality warping and transformed is a better feat then some specific Transmutation power.

Its proof enough against her for Shaka.



> What was he sealed into?



They were sealed by the Olympian Gods into stone for their rebelling against the Gods, and before you say anything, this includes Zeus who is equal if not slightly superior to Cronos/Kronos, so no that's not workign for her.



> It actually reads, "I come from the beginning of the world, from prehistoric eras. I have already been a gigantic God. I am Pontos, the dark ocean that creates life"



No, it doesn't. 



> I said the sixth sense manipulation won't work with because she doesn't have one. I never said the other sensory powers
> 
> I've already said she has mind resistance, and resisted her mind being lost in the sea of oblivion. Has direct access to a river that restores minds. I told you she has healing powers and can does need her senses to attack and can act in a comatose state.



a) No you didn't
b) Your only counter was she only ever restored her sight/vision, not all of her senses
c) Still waiting on that proof when Gold Saints with the 7th Sense have shown with their powers to counter healing and regenerative powers


Shaka with his regular Virgo Gold Cloth stands a fair chance of winning.

Shaka with the Virgo God Gold Cloth will absolutely wreck her.

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## Kurou (May 12, 2016)

Nevermind said:


> Welp.
> 
> Not sure this thread is salvageable at this point.



Its mostly been going in circles at this point with agent not realizing that someone who can outright say fuck reality warping isnt going to get trapped in some abritrary magic




The main focus of offense he keeps bringing up though is the star seed which Imperator said was diffetent from someones soul so I said it wouldnt get equalized

But then you say it is the soul

In which case Shaka has shown more than enough to resist it


But meh


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## God Movement (May 12, 2016)

Nevermind said:


> Welp.
> 
> Not sure this thread is salvageable at this point.



Good for activity. And entertainment for neutrals.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> I already said it was a basic ability. Now does Cosmos remotely stack or scale to Pontus, a God whose above the average Titan? Somehow I doubt that.



Your defense on what she can or cannot do is based on "i doubt that". You need to try again.



Fang said:


> Maybe if we're talking Mad Jim Jaspers, Franklin Richards, or their ilk, then sure. But everything you've told me so far doesn't remotely put Sailor Cosmos anywhere near those big dogs. Resisting an outright attempt at being reality warping and transformed is a better feat then some specific Transmutation power.
> 
> Its proof enough against her for Shaka.



Again with the transmutation bullshit? Now you're just straight up being an asshole. I already the feat had nothing to do with transmutation.



Fang said:


> They were sealed by the Olympian Gods into stone for their rebelling against the Gods, and before you say anything, this includes Zeus who is equal if not slightly superior to Cronos/Kronos, so no that's not workign for her.



They sealed them by turning them into stone or sealed them inside of a stone? I'm assuming the latter, because that's the feat I've been asking for? (unless you actually do think turning someone to stone *aka transmutation* is sealing them?)



Fang said:


> No, it doesn't.



Yes it does. You can plug it into any basic translator. The quote you gave mentions sea, the word sea isn't used in that scan. It's Ocean. It also mentions walking, recognizing, and time. Those words are never said in that scan.

Unless your quoting a different translation from another scan?



Fang said:


> a) No you didn't
> b) Your only counter was she only ever restored her sight/vision, not all of her senses
> c) Still waiting on that proof when Gold Saints with the 7th Sense have shown with their powers to counter healing and regenerative powers



A. Yes I did. I've been repeating my self throughout the entire thread. I can't control what you read.
B. She has healing powers to restore herself back to normal. Even if that doesn't fix her senses, she can heal her sight. Not having hearing, touch, taste, or smell isn't going to affect her fighting ability. And even further, she can act and use her power while her body lies unusable in a comatose state. Sense removal will have no effect to sway the battle. She doesn't even need to have a body. She can survive having her body destroyed. She can just exist as soul or manifestation of her starseed.
c. I've asked you for evidence of the shaka being able to prevent healing how many posts ago? What is the degree of the healblocking shown? Sailor Moon has healed entire planets from mind control and injuries; She's resurrected the entire planet and every single organism on it. She's then did this to the entire galaxy. Sailor Cosmos can extend this power to the whole Universe



Fang said:


> Shaka with his regular Virgo Gold Cloth stands a fair chance of winning.
> 
> Shaka with the Virgo God Gold Cloth will absolutely wreck her.



"Doubt it" as you like to say.



Kurou said:


> agent not realizing that someone who can outright say fuck reality warping isnt going to get trapped in some abritrary magic



I don't call resisting transformation or holding up the weight of human sins as a fuck you to reality warping.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Kurou (May 12, 2016)

Omg guy stop being stupid


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## Id (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I don't call resisting transformation or holding up the weight of human sins as a fuck you to reality warping.



In Shaka's clash against Shijima, endless universes and lives where destroyed and recreated. 

That's what he means by someone that can say fuck you to reality warping.


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## Agent9149 (May 12, 2016)

Id said:


> In Shaka's clash against Shijima, endless universes and lives where destroyed and recreated.
> 
> That's what he means by someone that can say fuck you to reality warping.



I've asked Fang that and he never mentioned anything like that. He just kept repeating the resistances of transmutation, transformation, and the sins feat.

Can you explain the endless universe where being destroyed and recreated? My understanding from that is that Shaka was destroying infinite amounts of universes or is it that during a battle, sets of universes were being created and destroyed? If it's the former then I'll concede.


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## Nevermind (May 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Good for activity. And entertainment for neutrals.



True. All those shitstorms in 2012 provided for arguably the last "golden age" despite our feelings at the time.


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## Id (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I've asked Fang that and he never mentioned anything like that. He just kept repeating the resistances of transmutation, transformation, and the sins feat.
> 
> Can you explain the endless universe where being destroyed and recreated? My understanding from that is that Shaka was destroying infinite amounts of universes or is it that during a battle, sets of universes were being created and destroyed? If it's the former then I'll concede.


Shaka with power of creation in his technique "Agyo", clashes with Shijima's "Ungyo", which harnesses the end of creation...started a cycle where countless realities where created and destroyed.

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## Fang (May 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Your defense on what she can or cannot do is based on "i doubt that". You need to try again.



You need to learn how to read.



> Again with the transmutation bullshit? Now you're just straight up being an asshole. I already the feat had nothing to do with transmutation.



Reality Warping > Transmutation

Try again.



> They sealed them by turning them into stone or sealed them inside of a stone? I'm assuming the latter, because that's the feat I've been asking for? (unless you actually do think turning someone to stone *aka transmutation* is sealing them?)



You need to learn how to read. What I said was pretty implicitly clear.



> Yes it does. You can plug it into any basic translator. The quote you gave mentions sea, the word sea isn't used in that scan. It's Ocean. It also mentions walking, recognizing, and time. Those words are never said in that scan.
> 
> Unless your quoting a different translation from another scan?



You're using a fucking machine translator, I'm using direct translations from a Spanish speaker. I'm going to go with you not knowing what the hell you are talking about when it comes to what Pontus said.

Give it up, skippy.



> A. Yes I did. I've been repeating my self throughout the entire thread. I can't control what you read.



You've been repeating the same debunked argument throughout the thread that no one else is buying. I'll accept that as basically a concession at this point.



> B. She has healing powers to restore herself back to normal. Even if that doesn't fix her senses, she can heal her sight. Not having hearing, touch, taste, or smell isn't going to affect her fighting ability. And even further, she can act and use her power while her body lies unusable in a comatose state. Sense removal will have no effect to sway the battle. She doesn't even need to have a body. She can survive having her body destroyed. She can just exist as soul or manifestation of her starseed.



So that's your tl ; dr of conceding she has no counter to having her senses or mind destroyed? Good to know.



> c. I've asked you for evidence of the shaka being able to prevent healing how many posts ago? What is the degree of the healblocking shown? Sailor Moon has healed entire planets from mind control and injuries; She's resurrected the entire planet and every single organism on it. She's then did this to the entire galaxy. Sailor Cosmos can extend this power to the whole Universe



Big deal. Shaka's techniques were countering the ichor of the Titans, which have self-healing abilities and are imbued with their Divine Cosmos to boot, which can restore life to their own universes, return their followers from the dead, and so on. I'm still not impressed remotely here.



> "Doubt it" as you like to say.



That's fine, just remember your opinion has already been dismissed as being of any validity.



> I don't call resisting transformation or holding up the weight of human sins as a fuck you to reality warping.



Just like you don't recall practically any valid or knowledge when it comes to Shaka's abilities, so what does it matter what you think here? A character that's able to restore themselves to their previous state while a literal God is attempting to turn them into a monster isn't going to have an issue with that at all. You can keep barking, but that's all your doing.

And for the record: I wasn't even thinking about Shijma's and Shaka's duel in Next Dimension at all but that was him without his God Cloth version, so even more of a stomp now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2016)

Kurou said:


> Its mostly been going in circles at this point with agent not realizing that someone who can outright say fuck reality warping isnt going to get trapped in some abritrary magic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cuz it is, soul drain and what not is like Sailor Moon bread and butter

Fuck, Precure does similar shit

Trying to make it anymore than it actually is, is dumb, and anyone who has like 15 minutes to speed read SM will tell you exactly that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Agent9149 (May 13, 2016)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Cuz it is, soul drain and what not is like Sailor Moon bread and butter


 
Starseeds and souls are two different concepts in Sailor Moon. Mistress 9 took the senshi's souls and their bodies still remained.  Souls are called Hoste. Bodies are vessels. Starseeds are the basic component of existence. All organisms, planets, stars, sailor crystals are all grown from starseeds that are created in the Galaxy Cauldron.




Id said:


> Shaka with power of creation in his technique "Agyo", clashes with Shijima's "Ungyo", which harnesses the end of creation...started a cycle where countless realities created and destroyed.



I looked it up and saw what you mean. I saw what you mean. The source also said that they can keep it going to for an indefinite time, seemingly eternally based on the infinte war comment, if I am correct with what I saw..

It said that Shaka can give off the power that creates a universe, seemingly a big bang.

Eternal Sailor Moon has atleast 3x the energy of the universe (her own power, plus the power of daughter's crystal and the golden crystal). She uses this power (Starlight Honeymoon) to destroy Queen Nehellenia, the deadmoon, and the mirror world (which is referred to as a parallel universe and a alternate world separate from reality) She later then upgrades that power (Silver Moon Crystal Power) to destroy 8 beings (the sol senshi) that easily tanked that previous power. Sailor Galaxia is then able to counter and stalemate the upgraded power.

Sailor Cosmos possess all their power combined. (plus 13 more crystals whose power can be scaled to Starlight Honeymoon)

Sailor Cosmos has immortality and infinite power meaning she won't tire or lose power so the endless fighting thing wouldn't be a problem to her.

If you think Shaka's Agyo can overtake her raw power. Sailor Cosmos loses to Shaka.


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## ShadMorgen (May 13, 2016)

So Shaka wins? Cool.

(That D.Va avatar is the best thing in this thread)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (May 13, 2016)

I dont even buy it yet that sailor moon reaches universe lv forget about more.


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## saint rider 890 (May 13, 2016)

yujiro said:


> I dont even buy it yet that sailor moon reaches universe lv forget about more.



Nah I'm sure Sailor Cosmos still Galaxy level if Sailor Cosmos become universe why in obd she still stuck galaxy level ?


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## Agent9149 (May 13, 2016)

yujiro said:


> I dont even buy it yet that sailor moon reaches universe lv forget about more.





saint rider 890 said:


> Nah I'm sure Sailor Cosmos still Galaxy level if Sailor Cosmos become universe why in obd she still stuck galaxy level ?



The OBD is outdated and based on old inaccurate English translations. It has eternal sailor moon at solar system level yet she left that behind long since her base form.


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## Toaa (May 13, 2016)

Yeah but i dont know japanese so what should i do?


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## almanar (May 13, 2016)

yujiro said:


> Yeah but i dont know japanese so what should i do?


U want English? Famous sites for what if battle like "screwattack" has SM cosmos capable do againts my Overlord Laharl. It was not overall of her skill but its enough for general explanation.

About this battle? It hard to say , but iam on Shaka,
Because he can seal all  SM cosmos sense and mind. And her capability to restore her sense or travel time to remind herself on other dimensional is doesnt make any sense. Well how can she do that if her mind is sealed? Or for simple word, how do you know what you have to do if, your mind  cant think that cause there is nothing on your mind about it? Why should i bother dodging or defend if there is nothing attack or harm me?


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## Toaa (May 13, 2016)

Scans.they shoukd have the correct ones if the manga sites have mistranslated ones.


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