# Why shouldn't Sasuke receive punishment for his crimes?



## Doge (May 23, 2013)

He murdered Danzo, attempted to kill Kakashi and Sakura, helped Obito capture part of the 8 tails which is a direct war crime against not only Konoha but the world, attempted to murder Naruto, defected from the village, conspired with Orochimaru, and attacked the 5 kage while murdering a handful of Samurai.

So, should Sasuke get off scot free, or should he be punished for his actions?  If he is not punished, then what justifies not punishing him?  Does this set the precedent that Shinobi are not under the statutes of law?  Does Konoha's decisions trump all other village's law?

I see no reason why there shouldn't be punishment following the war.  No punishment would mean all you need to get off without charge would be a monologue and clear intention of protecting Konoha.


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## Skywalker (May 23, 2013)

Hopefully they'll be some sort of punishment, if all his past crimes get tossed out the window now that'd be idiotic.


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

Skywalker said:


> Hopefully they'll be some sort of punishment, if all his past crimes get tossed out the window now that'd be idiotic.



That's what I've been thinking.  I don't think there was any other instance in any village's history where a known defector, one conspiring with someone attempting to rule the world, and one attempting to murder the current kage was considered for the position of kage.

It'd be ridiculous to even let him go free, let alone become Hokage.  Attempting to assassinate the current Hokage is not an offense?  What a law system.


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## Veja24 (May 23, 2013)

Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

Veja24 said:


> Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.



So conspiring with the guys who are using the 10 tails helping them get the reagents to summon it, attempting to assassinate the current kages, conspiring with Orochimaru, betraying at least 3 different groups, and having horrible relations with the other nations is fine for coming back to the village?

That pretty much says you can do whatever you want and nothing will happen.  And to think he is even considered for Hokage?  Ridiculous.  It doesn't matter whether you almost got the world taken over by the most evil characters in the manga, you're still set.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 23, 2013)

How is murdering Danzo a crime?  Hell they probably would of done it anyway if Sasuke hadn't.


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## Hydro Spiral (May 23, 2013)

Because he's got Naruto 

He will probably go unpunished simply due to that.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

Because you let Rin die


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## Hamaru (May 23, 2013)

Naruto will hear Sasuke's reason for changing his mind and the story  about Madara and Shodai. That alone will be all he needs to let Sasuke get away with everything scott free.


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## Raventhal (May 23, 2013)

Yes, lets lock him up.  They only have to deal with the Juubi and Madara facing the end of the world.  

Ain't nobody got time for that!


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## Cord (May 23, 2013)

I hope  shuts this thread up. 

Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for. A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless. 

*Editing after four months just to clear some misunderstandings:*

I'm not saying that he should be absolved of his crimes though. Just that he's no longer worthy of any punishment should he be able to succeed and contribute in saving their world. What makes people so riled up on the idea of Sasuke getting away with his "crimes" is because they treat the situation as if it's reality or it's something existent in the real (our) world- which it shouldn't be.

The manga has a world of its own and a set of moral standards of its own. In terms of understanding, evaluating and discussing issues like this, the best way is to project ourselves unto that world and live by its own standards. One of the glaring themes of this story isn't about crime and punishment (like what should be the case in reality), but redemption.


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## BatoKusanagi (May 23, 2013)

Yeah he should be send to the prison Naruto's was sent in Blood Prison 



TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> How is murdering Danzo a crime?  Hell they probably would of done it anyway if Sasuke hadn't.


You're seriously asking how is murder a crime?


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## Raiden (May 23, 2013)

Aside from what Evil said, a big problem with trying to "punish" Sasuke will be that Madara brought the Naruto world to it's knees. Anyone who makes a significant contribution to stopping him will have huge political capital. Moreover, since Sasuke said he WANTS to be Hokage, that will be some basis of swaying people's minds. Right now the idea seems ridiculous to the other rookies. But I think they will acknowledge his effort. When you look at the major leaders as well, there's just no way Sasuke will be a in a box. Naruto has sway over Tsunade. If he or Kakashi becomes the next Hokage, there's a huge bias there already. Naruto also has influence over A. So I think Sauce is safe.

Leadership otherwise can't really do anything. All of the kages nearly died. And the Elders in respective villages are responsible for making the events now unfold.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

@Cordelia

Lovely post and nice link.

So in hindsight Sasuke did less harm and more good when he was supposedly a "bad guy" and didn't give a shit about Konoha.


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## Aazadan (May 23, 2013)

Here's the problem with Sasuke being punished, he hasn't actually done anything wrong other than become a missing nin.

First he left the village.  That's a crime, but it's not one anyone seriously considered seeing as how lenient Tsunade was on him.

Next he joined Orochimaru for training, however when he was strong enough he made a very successful attempt on Orochimaru's life.  Something no one else was able to do.  This negates Sasuke leaving to join Orochimaru in the first place.

Then he killed Itachi, again he left because he felt the village would hold him back in getting strong enough to kill Itachi.  From the villages perspective he left, and 3 years later killed Itachi.  This justified him leaving in the first place, even Itachi believed he would be welcomed back as a hero after this was done.

Next he joined Akatsuki.  From everything we've seen in the series, individuals may hold grudges for someone belonging to an organization, but it doesn't make someone responsible for things that organization has done.  There is no guilt by association, so this is neutral.

After that he went after Bee.  This makes him a criminal to the cloud, but the cloud isn't the leaf.  Minato would have been an S rank war criminal to some villages, yet he's a hero to the leaf.  So it doesn't matter what the cloud think of Sasuke.

Then he went for the Kage meeting.  Sasuke wasn't part of any village, so he wasn't under any treaty to leave the place alone.  When he showed up he defended himself against the other Kage's but didn't seek out fighting any of them other than Danzou.  This isn't a crime.

Next he killed Danzou, this is a crime for the leaf but they may or may not choose to pursue it.  Given the limited information they have right now it would surely seem wrong, but given how this is a world where revenge is allowed, if the truth of Itachi and Danzou comes out Sasuke would be well within his rights here.  For that matter he could probably see something happen to the remaining two elders for their part in it.

After Danzou he attempted to kill Sakura and Kakashi, but they were both attempting to kill him, so like in the Kage case it was self defense, even though Sasuke really really wanted to do it, rather than being forced into defending himself.

Last, he resurrected Orochimaru which lead to the kage's just now saving the entire alliance.

He has some minor crimes here but between the truth of what drove him to take those actions, and the fact that the ninja world is simply just going to have to forgive past wrongs in order to move forward without perpetuating a chain of hatred (just like Naruto did against Nagato... this will be a major point in how Naruto tells others to overcome hatred), there's nothing to really punish him over.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Veja24 said:


> Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.



Yes. Mizuki is in prison for example, missing-nin that betray the village are normally executed. Sasuke is an outlier. Furthermore, the ninja world is not some lawless land where they wantonly kill one another. Killing is quite the big deal, it's the center of conflict in this series! 



Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.



It doesn't. 



> Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for.



This is such a dumb criteria, he's done plenty to be vilified for. He's killed people, he's betrayed everyone he's ever come across, conspired with international terrorist groups, and put his former comrades at risk due to his reckless actions. 



> A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.



Whether or not war would have happened doesn't excuse him at all. Criminals reform all the time, but that doesn't absolve them of their crimes. 



> Sasuke might have betrayed his village, but if anything, the village and the ninja system were the ones that betrayed him first.



No, because he grew up in the same system everyone else did. He ran to a man that would have turned the world into a living hell, and then to ones that intend to put it in an eternal illusion that they control. There are many that have had it as bad as he did if not worse, yet did not snap so easily.

You guys have the worst sense of crime and culpability, I swear.


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## Raiden (May 23, 2013)

Attacking the kages is pretty serious. He has a bad rep across several governments...I do think the fight with A constitutes going to a place of no return. But the events unfolding now are going to be  game changer for him.


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## CandleGuy (May 23, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.
> 
> *Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for.* A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.



> Betray his village becoming a missing nin abandoning the friends who almost gave their lives for him

> Attempting to kill his closest comrades

> Attempting to drop Bee off to his death by Obito's hands

> Aiding the organization that lead to the death of many village's Jin

> Invading the Land of Iron and attacking its guests murdering some of the Samurai

 Well I guess Sasuke's the only man who could swim through a sewer and come out with a clean freshly pressed suit.



Cordelia said:


> Sasuke might have betrayed his village, but if anything, the village and the ninja system were the ones that betrayed him first.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> > Betray his village becoming a missing nin abandoning the friends who almost gave their lives for him
> 
> > Attempting to kill his closest comrades
> 
> ...



Seriously, what is with people trying to gloss over this shit?

And since when does any kind of reform undo a person's crimes in any sensible aspect of society? People that have life sentences can turn their lives around, but that doesn't mean they get to walk free!

There is always a point of "too late", Sasuke logically speaking, already reach that. It's only that Naruto is his friend that he will get off scot-free, which is why the manga sends such an awful message with the whole ordeal. On top of subverting the "hard-work vs. genius" theme, it has more than established in contrast to its intention that the elite are destined and born into such roles, and that it is who you know and what you are born into, not what you do, that determines your fate.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

@Seto Kaiba

You weren't paying attention to the first hokages tale of how flawed as fuck the ninja system is did you? Also that not many knew of how a shinobi is one who endures. Those who did were never able to point it out until it was too late (Minato, Hashirama). 

The failures of the hokage is what lead to the ninja war.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> You weren't paying attention to the first hokages tale of how flawed as fuck the ninja system is did you? Also that not many knew of how a shinobi is one who endures. Those who did were never able to point it out until it was too late (Minato, Hashirama).
> 
> The failures of the hokage is what lead to the ninja war.



The ninja system is flawed, but flaws in a system do not excuse an individual's evils.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

Naruto's ideal of becoming hokage simply for acknowledgement isn't what grants you a title like that. But someone who has strong leadership qualities, wants to change something is allowed to be a leader.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Bender said:


> Naruto's ideal of becoming hokage simply for acknowledgement isn't what grants you a title like that. But someone who has strong leadership qualities, wants to change something is allowed to be a leader.



Which is why neither Naruto nor Sasuke should be Hokage.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The ninja system is flawed, but flaws in a system do not excuse an individual's evils.



I never said it does. Though what Sasuke should be imprisoned when he was fucked from the get-go and his entire fate trapped by a government conspiracy? If it wasn't for Itachi being alive for so long then Danzo and his Root operation would've had his throat slit in his sleep. 

Sasuke's whole life story is more politically aligned and therefore it was inevitable that he would gain the knowledge which details the flaws of which drove his clan into a corner. Once it became apparent that the Uchiha had been politically exiled from the villages politics of course they were gonna go ape. Also became even more object of suspicion when Obito like a dickhead instigated the kyuubi attack on Konoha.

EDIT:

Sasuke has more entitlement and it makes more sense for him to be hokage than Naruto. A hero isn't a leader and from the start his dream is more selfish than sensible.


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## CandleGuy (May 23, 2013)

I like how the ninja system being flawed equates to Sasuke having no idea that he had other options beside being a huge jackass

Someone like Kakashi should have at least said something like "betraying your friends makes you lower than trash."

Something to give Sasuke a choice!


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

@Candleguy

Considering how the policies of the second and being unchanged by the third (much less fourth) lead to Itachi doing the extreme of the ultimatum Madara gave Hashirama. Yeah, it kinda makes sense with Sasuke having an even wiser mentality than his teammate.


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## Jeαnne (May 23, 2013)

Sasuke will stay in a box as much as Orochimaru did...yeah 

People must understand that there are some kinds of ninjas that just _can't_ be put in a prison, that can't be punished by law. Any attempt would result in a huge fight that would require another high level ninja to get him, unless he actually accepts to be punished(which i doubt).

The best they can do is thank god that he wants to be a good guy now instead of fucking the ninja world up.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Bender said:


> I never said it does. Though what Sasuke should be imprisoned when he was fucked from the get-go and his entire fate trapped by a government conspiracy?



Are we going to act like his own clan didn't sign their own death warrant now? Both sides are at fault and left himself and Itachi in a difficult spot. 



> If it wasn't for Itachi being alive for so long then Danzo and his Root operation would've had his throat slit in his sleep.



Danzo was evil, yet again, that doesn't excuse Sasuke's own. 



> Sasuke's whole life story is more politically aligned and therefore it was inevitable that he would gain the knowledge which details the flaws of which drove his clan into a corner. Once it became apparent that the Uchiha had been politically exiled from the villages politics of course they were gonna go ape.



Tobirama made a lot of mistakes during his reign as Hokage, and Danzo not only carried those prejudices, he took them to the extreme; yet again you cannot act like this was all the fault of one party. The first response by the clan was to conspire a bloody coup. The first course of action was one of violence. Pragmatically speaking, this was never going to work out for them. They have a right to feel victimized, they didn't have the right to put the village under risk. Knowing the backstory behind events makes sense of them, but they don't excuse them. 



> Also became even more object of suspicion when Obito like a dickhead instigated the kyuubi attack on Konoha.



There was no indication that the village as a whole distrusted the Uchiha in contrast to the elders and Danzo's sentiments. However, it was stated that the Uchiha were absent during the attack. 



> EDIT:
> 
> Sasuke has more entitlement and it makes more sense for him to be hokage than Naruto. A hero isn't a leader and from the start his dream is more selfish than sensible.



Sasuke has more a *sense* of entitlement yes, but there's no sense in him becoming Hokage. He has the flaw of Naruto in lacking leadership capabilities, but in a worse manner, as he does not even consider the feelings of those he wishes to lead. That is the fast-track to tyranny. On top of that has lost the acknowledgment of his peers, which would only lead to resistance and violence.

Sasuke has shown what kind of person he can be at his worst, he's a criminal after all...he has no validity in his ambition.


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## Bender (May 23, 2013)

@Seto Kaiba

No one is "glossing" or anything Sasuke's deeds. Imprisoning him is like imprisoning "The Greek" from "The Wire" if they're the type that offers service to the government or such they're unable to be prosecuted.


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## Aazadan (May 23, 2013)

Sasuke's reason for wanting to become hokage is a hell of a lot better than Narutos.  Naruto just wants it for the recognition of being the biggest badass around and that stems out of a childhood where no one recognized him.  Naruto would be quite bad at the job.  He believes that you will do as he says or he'll kick your ass, he doesn't accept others opinions, and he has no clue how to actually lead.  Naruto's only good quality in becoming Hokage is that he recognizes the chain of hatred and has actually taken his own steps towards breaking it.  However, he has no way of convincing others to follow in his footsteps other than threatening violence on them for not complying, which sounds an awful lot like Nagato's solution in the end.

Contrast that with Sasuke who has seen the absolute worst of the ninja world, knows what drives it, and wants to make sure that the atrocities which happened to him and his family, don't happen to anyone ever again.  He knows the mindset of being overtaken by hatred, he knows what drives it, and he knows how nations act to perpetuate it.  On top of that, unlike Naruto he has some leadership experience, leading his own team of missing nins.


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## Tony Lou (May 23, 2013)

It all comes down to whether you believe in redemption or not.


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.



No, it doesn't.  Not at all.

He attempted to kill the Raikage, Onoki, and Mei also.  He nearly succeeded against the Raikage.  Furthermore, the post doesn't even mention the fact that he WOULD conspire with Obito and Orochimaru.  Somehow, it's a-okay if nothing super bad happens.  Next, it fails to mention the attempted assassination of Sakura and Kakashi.

Oh and another thing, he recklessly led his own friends to their near-deaths in his defection.  He almost killed his closest comrade, Naruto.  

And furthermore, he's on bad grounds with the Samurai as he murdered a large group of them.  And worst of all, he almost captured the Hachibi.  But clearly, that means nothing.  



Cordelia said:


> Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for. A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.



He nearly got Naruto, kakashi, Sakura, Neji, Kiba, Shikimaru, B, the Raikage, Mei, Onoki, and countless others killed.  But that clearly doesn't mean anything.  

And he already betrayed 3 separate parties.  What's it to him to do it again?  He's too impressionable.  



Cordelia said:


> Sasuke might have betrayed his village, but if anything, the village and the ninja system were the ones that betrayed him first.



Gangsta rap made me do it!  Don't need any personal responsibility!  Madara is free to kill whoever he wants because the ninja system did it!  Every criminal is justified!

No.  It's not an excuse to conspire to dominate the entire world.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Luiz said:


> It all comes down to whether you believe in redemption or not.



Well you can believe in it, but that in no way means believing in it unconditionally.


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## Jeαnne (May 23, 2013)

just curiosity, did Gaara pay for his crimes?


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## CandleGuy (May 23, 2013)

Gaara sacrificed himself 

Technically he died


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## Csdabest (May 23, 2013)

kresh said:


> He murdered Danzo, attempted to kill Kakashi and Sakura, helped Obito capture part of the 8 tails which is a direct war crime against not only Konoha but the world, attempted to murder Naruto, defected from the village, conspired with Orochimaru, and attacked the 5 kage while murdering a handful of Samurai.
> 
> So, should Sasuke get off scot free, or should he be punished for his actions?  If he is not punished, then what justifies not punishing him?  Does this set the precedent that Shinobi are not under the statutes of law?  Does Konoha's decisions trump all other village's law?
> 
> I see no reason why there shouldn't be punishment following the war.  No punishment would mean all you need to get off without charge would be a monologue and clear intention of protecting Konoha.



Um shinobi kill shinobi. That is what they are there for. Just because it wasnt done in sanction by another country. When Kakashi father killed Chiyo kid. Was there a punishment for it. No. Chiyo didnt even try to get revenge on kakashi despite being the white fangs son. Also Danzo murdered Sasuke's family. Ordered the execution of their comrades. Instead of continuing peace talks condeming their clan to complete and utter genocide instead of holding trail for the ones who were actually responsible. And is one shady as mofo. He is notorious for commiting genocide and unsanction killings. The shinobi world is a dark world and these moral judiciary punishments people on this forum thinks should be made in this universe is hysterical. 

 Sakura pursued Sasuke in order to kill him. Kakashi protected Sakura who tried to kill him. So Sasuke tried to kill them. Shinobi world is a dog eat dog world on the battlefield. 

Kumo infiltrated Konoha and tried to kidnap a main branch family member(Hinata) to further their war efforts of obtaining jutsu. Due to Hiruzen cowardice of starting another war he was such a punk he decided to kill the person who killed the intruder instead. Aka Neji Dad

Naruto pursued Sasuke despite telling him to mind his own business. This was completely naruto fault. And during the whole Kage arc danzo fight ordeal. Naruto, kakashi, sakura...actually the whole bunch of them Went outside of Konoha against orders of the acting Hokage. Especially naruto. They left the village much like Sasuke with out permission.

Naruto defecting with orochimaru  to the sound village is his only real offense that holds any weight. But then against This is the same village who ordered the genocide of his clan and even wanted him dead.

Sasuke was on a mission to execute Danzo for crimes against his clan and for revenge. Just like those wood ninja remnants.  Plain and simple. Sasuke didnt attack the kage summit. They attacked him. He was planning on waiting to leave and told them Both samurai and the kages to stay out of his way. If you want to argue that they shouldnt have trespassed in the Iron nation of the samurai. well Naruto and Co along with Karui and Co did the same exact thing. Naruto and co did it even against Their acting hokages wishes. Samurai attacked Sasuke. And Raikage attacked them. Not Sasuke.

Your judging Sasuke based on the laws of our world. Not theirs. Killing and attempting Murder against people who try to take your life.  Half these crimes he performed was under the banner of Akatsuki. Much like How Shinobi perform their acts under the banners of their villages. Akatasuki is being considered a criminal organization because it threaten the balance of 5 great nations. 

Much like how Kumo tried on multiple occasions to KIDNAP KUSHINA and the 9-tails along with trying to kidnap bloodlines

Much like how the mist village tried to send Sanbi off to konoha to destroy their village.

Much like how Gaara and the sand village attacked and invaded konoha yet no crimes against their shinobi not even the ones who were Important to the actual plan of destroying konoha. Orochimaru was apart of akatsuki so it could be seen as them funding the organization thats threatening the world right now

Oonoki Funded Akatsuki and it was hinted that deidara was recruited by nomination from their own village. Im saying hinted because it was directly said. BUT OONOKI OPENLY ADMITTED TO FUNDING AKATSUKI. 

If any Sasuke is held with any crimes what so ever. It would legitimately be the biggest load of bullshit ever.


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## titantron91 (May 23, 2013)

Aazadan said:


> Here's the problem with Sasuke being punished, he hasn't actually done anything wrong other than become a missing nin.
> 
> First he left the village.  That's a crime, but it's not one anyone seriously considered seeing as how lenient Tsunade was on him.
> 
> ...



THIS x100000


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

Aazadan said:


> Sasuke's reason for wanting to become hokage is a hell of a lot better than Narutos.  Naruto just wants it for the recognition of being the biggest badass around and that stems out of a childhood where no one recognized him.  Naruto would be quite bad at the job.  He believes that you will do as he says or he'll kick your ass, he doesn't accept others opinions, and he has no clue how to actually lead.  Naruto's only good quality in becoming Hokage is that he recognizes the chain of hatred and has actually taken his own steps towards breaking it.  However, he has no way of convincing others to follow in his footsteps other than threatening violence on them for not complying, which sounds an awful lot like Nagato's solution in the end.
> 
> Contrast that with Sasuke who has seen the absolute worst of the ninja world, knows what drives it, and wants to make sure that the atrocities which happened to him and his family, don't happen to anyone ever again.  He knows the mindset of being overtaken by hatred, he knows what drives it, and he knows how nations act to perpetuate it.  On top of that, unlike Naruto he has some leadership experience, leading his own team of missing nins.



Sasuke as Hokage would probably ignite another war.  Oh, Sasuke attempted to murder your kage Kumogakure and help the guys summoning the Juubi and trying to take over the world?  Too bad, he's our Hokage now.   

Sasuke can't lead worth a crap.  He'd probably ignite another war regardless of himself being Hokage.  He's too selfish and inclined to punish others for not being on his side, like you say Naruto is.  Notice how he led his groups of missing nins?  Abuse, abuse, and more abuse.  

Shikimaru is the best choice.  He can lead, be intelligent, and not stir up a huge controversy.  Only an idiot would choose anyone else over him.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> No one is "glossing" or anything Sasuke's deeds. Imprisoning him is like imprisoning "The Greek" from "The Wire" if they're the type that offers service to the government or such they're unable to be prosecuted.



No, it's not like that at all; because Sasuke's actions would have resulted in the destruction of the village. It's only by a stroke of fortune they didn't. Sasuke can't be imprisoned like any other nin, it's true he's too strong. Gouging out his eyes could be a logical possibility, or to kill him as soon as they could. There really is no reason why he should get off scot-free, it is again, because of Naruto that he will however.


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> THIS x100000



Today I learned you can conspire with the summoner of the Juubi and attempt to capture a piece in summoning it, and it's not a bad thing.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> Gaara sacrificed himself
> 
> Technically he died



It's a dumb argument to make in the first place. 

Remind me when Sasuke has a demon that literally screws with his mind.


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## CandleGuy (May 23, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Um shinobi kill shinobi. That is what they are there for.



No need to go further than this

Where are the tears for Gato? He is the hero we all deserve


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## Doge (May 23, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No, it's not like that at all; because Sasuke's actions would have resulted in the destruction of the village. It's only by a stroke of fortune they didn't. Sasuke can't be imprisoned like any other nin, it's true he's too strong. Gouging out his eyes could be a logical possibility, or to kill him as soon as they could. There really is no reason why he should get off scot-free, it is again, because of Naruto that he will however.



Indeed.

This only sets the precedent that evil atrocities are fine and don't matter.  All you will receive is a stern talking to and maybe someone might try to stop you.  But you can always come back if you want as long as you say you like Konoha.


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## Uchiha Ryken (May 23, 2013)

Sunagakure teamed up with Orochimaru to destroy Konoha and like a month later the two villages were BFFs.

Zabuza was a mercenary who spent nearly his entire screen time trying to kill Naruto and he got a send off like no hero ever did just because he cried as he went down. Then when he was resurrected, Kakashi had nothing but praise for him. Even Neji's death only merited a slap in the face and a motivational speech.

Kisame betrayed and murdered his comrades his whole life, and likewise received respect from Guy at his death.

Pain and Konan destroyed the entire village and she was allowed to walk free after Pain killed himself.

Tsunade was a gambler, a legendary Konoha shinobi who turned her back on her village for decades, and poisoned Jiraiya before he battled Orochimaru and they made her Hokage.


No one in this manga is held accountable for their actions as long as they can live long enough to shed a tear over them. It's not about real world justice. It's about Narutoverse redemption.


----------



## Bender (May 23, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Are we going to act like his own clan didn't sign their own death warrant now? Both sides are at fault and left himself and Itachi in a difficult spot.



You love jumping to conclusions don't you? His clan were pushed into the corner because of the poor decision making. Tobirama had them scientifically pegged to a T and yet he didn't at all give a rats ass that he made them doom themselves with terrible policies. Also the detective work  was crap since they came to a lousy conclusion that "one of the Uchiha clan must've sought the Kyuubi" even though as the leaf village they should know if one of them has the potential to summon the Kyuubi. 




> Danzo was evil, yet again, that doesn't excuse Sasuke's own.



And funnily enough I DID NOT ONCE say that. However, if his actions still lead to helping secure peace and didn't lead to the lifestyles of people going to shit you can hardly say they were damaging. 

The only thing you you can get on Sasuke's case for is his friends being unbelievably and ridiculously Yandere towards him.



> Tobirama made a lot of mistakes during his reign as Hokage, and Danzo not only carried those prejudices, he took them to the extreme; yet again you cannot act like this was all the fault of one party.



Tobirama's mistakes carried over more than just to the Uchiha clan. He's responsible for the Ame-orphans descent into darkness. Because of how butthurt he was for not being made Hokage he decided to enact all sorts of whacked out plots to ensure he gained the title. Also as Obito noted he had also planned on taking control of Naruto using his Sharingan. He had done so much crap that wasn't  regular village proceedings that were damaging to Konoha it could take up an officer's notepad for writing down a ticket.




> There was no indication that the village as a whole distrusted the Uchiha in contrast to the elders and Danzo's sentiments. However, it was stated that the Uchiha were absent during the attack.



They had their own matters to deal with. Last I checked they're the police and as Orochimaru stated they became conceited with the power given to them. They were put outside the village's politics.



> Sasuke has more a *sense* of entitlement yes, but there's no sense in him becoming Hokage. He has the flaw of Naruto in lacking leadership capabilities



We're obviously reading a different manga because last I checked Sasuke RAN a faction. Naruto  has been a genin for like ever and has no knowledge outside of anything except combat.


----------



## Bender (May 23, 2013)

> Remind me when Sasuke has a demon that literally screws with his mind.



It wasn't just the demon Gaara himself had those homicidal thoughts himself.

Also sasuke has the "Curse of hatred" thing which makes him go batshit like it does all Uchiha.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 23, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It's a dumb argument to make in the first place.
> 
> Remind me when Sasuke has a demon that literally screws with his mind.



Well Gaara was treated like a prince and one of the crowning jewels of the village.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 23, 2013)

This discussion is a little disturbing because people are speaking from their own sense of culpability and criminality, and the arguments excusing Sasuke just aren't compatible with any functioning society, including the narutoverse's one. They have laws under which Sasuke should have died ages ago, it's only because Naruto had that pull that this didn't happen.


----------



## BlinkST (May 23, 2013)

It's not a matter of bad. It's a question of *bad enough*

Why is a guy called "Seto Kaiba" acting like a Holier than thou friend


----------



## Doge (May 23, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> Well Gaara was treated like a prince and one of the crowning jewels of the village.



After the Shukaku was subdued.  Before that, he was a beast not to be trifled with.


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Uchiha Ryken said:


> Sunagakure teamed up with Orochimaru to destroy Konoha and like a month later the two villages were BFFs.
> 
> Zabuza was a mercenary who spent nearly his entire screen time trying to kill Naruto and he got a send off like no hero ever did just because he cried as he went down. Then when he was resurrected, Kakashi had nothing but praise for him. Even Neji's death only merited a slap in the face and a motivational speech.
> 
> ...




None of this comes even close to conspiring with Madara, aiding in summoning the Juubi, attempting to kill the 5 kage, almost getting all your friends killed after they come trying to HELP you, aiding the man who conspired to destroy Konoha, attempting to assassinate Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi, and murdering some samurai.

And yet he's going to be considered for Hokage?  Lowest punishment absolutely possible would be a loose, dangerous entity in Konoha's eyes to be watched over.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This discussion is a little disturbing because people are speaking from their own sense of culpability and criminality, and the arguments excusing Sasuke just aren't compatible with any functioning society, including the narutoverse's one.



Has Sasuke harmed an innocent village?

Has he killed anyone who didn't try to kill him?

No he didn't.

Unless he has committed anything even coming remotely close to mass slaughter or the above mentioned than he can't be imprisoned. 

You're being biased. 

The things shown in the war like Orochimaru sending out the Edo Tensei hokage is something that gets a person a pardon for their crimes.

@BlinkST

My thoughts exactly 

Seto Kaiba injuerd yugi's grandpa and yet I don't hear Yugi bitching about it in the Duelist Kingdom arc the next time he sees him.


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> It's not a matter of bad. It's a question of *bad enough*
> 
> Why is a guy called "Seto Kaiba" acting like a Holier than thou friend



Ad hominem at its finest.  His points still stand.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> It's not a matter of bad. It's a question of *bad enough*



So Sasuke failing by happenstance to succeed to do evil means he never attempted or intended to do foul shit? 

This includes the foul shit he's actually done like putting holes in two of his biggest supporters.


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Has Sasuke harmed an innocent village?
> 
> Has he killed anyone who didn't try to kill him?
> 
> ...



Yes, he did.  Remember the Samurai?

Does nearly capturing Bee and showing clear motive to help in Obito's Eye of the Moon plan mean nothing?   Would you say the same if someone nearly stole a nuclear weapon and the means of using it on another nation from Russia and nearly gave it to North Korea?  It would be fine because no one got hurt huh?


----------



## Uchiha Ryken (May 24, 2013)

kresh said:


> None of this comes even close to conspiring with Madara, aiding in summoning the Juubi, attempting to kill the 5 kage, almost getting all your friends killed after they come trying to HELP you, aiding the man who conspired to destroy Konoha, attempting to assassinate Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi, and murdering some samurai.
> 
> And yet he's going to be considered for Hokage?  Lowest punishment absolutely possible would be a loose, dangerous entity in Konoha's eyes to be watched over.



Blowing up a village doesn't come close to what Sasuke has done? There are so many "attempted" and "almost" phrases in Sasuke's crimes, but Pain and Konan literally invaded Konoha and then blew it up. After killing some large number of people, Pain had a chat with Naruto, said he was sorry and brought people back to life, and then Konan was allowed to just take his body and leave.

Note that I am not for one second excusing Sasuke's actions. I'm just saying that they are completely irrelevant to the Narutoverse theme. If I lived in Konoha, I'd want them to string him up in front of the town square, but that's just not going to happen, whether he "deserves" it or not.

I also would have arrested  and executed Konan for her crimes. But she got a pass too.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Has Sasuke harmed an innocent village?



Samurai nation had nothing to do with his crusade

Bee had nothing to do with his crusade



Bender said:


> Has he killed anyone who didn't try to kill him?



Samurai tried to kill him because he invaded their nation intending to kill their guests.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Uchiha Ryken said:


> Sunagakure teamed up with Orochimaru to destroy Konoha and like a month later the two villages were BFFs.



Was it not explained that one, the current Kage of the village had been manipulated by Orochimaru, and that the village was forced to comply or face destruction?



> Zabuza was a mercenary who spent nearly his entire screen time trying to kill Naruto and he got a send off like no hero ever did just because he cried as he went down. Then when he was resurrected, Kakashi had nothing but praise for him. Even Neji's death only merited a slap in the face and a motivational speech.
> 
> Kisame betrayed and murdered his comrades his whole life, and likewise received respect from Guy at his death.
> 
> Pain and Konan destroyed the entire village and she was allowed to walk free after Pain killed himself.



Zabuza's death was his repentance. 

Kisame's death wasn't so much that, but he died as he wanted. You are really conflating things here. That wasn't a redemption, that was a respect of Kisame's ideals which he lived and died by. You can respect an enemy, but they are still an enemy at the end of the day.

That was crap, and I don't think anyone can or should excuse that. Nagato however, gave his life in some attempt to change. 



> Tsunade was a gambler, a legendary Konoha shinobi who turned her back on her village for decades, and poisoned Jiraiya before he battled Orochimaru and they made her Hokage.



Being a gambler isn't illegal, and that was to get Jiraiya to stop trailing her. She had no intentions of helping Orochimaru, and jumped to fight him off. 



> No one in this manga is held accountable for their actions as long as they can live long enough to shed a tear over them. It's not about real world justice. It's about Narutoverse redemption.



That's the most horrible argument...the theme of redemption in the story hinges on how it exists in the real world. All the themes in the manga do. Or else, they are absolutely worthless. It's why you have those like Nagato, Zabuza, primarily dying as a form of it. There's no way they could make up for what they did so the only thing left was a personal change and the ultimate show of that was to give their lives. 



Bender said:


> You love jumping to conclusions don't you? His clan were pushed into the corner because of the poor decision making. Tobirama had them scientifically pegged to a T and yet he didn't at all give a rats ass that he made them doom themselves with terrible policies. Also the detective work  was crap since they came to a lousy conclusion that "one of the Uchiha clan must've sought the Kyuubi" even though as the leaf village they should know if one of them has the potential to summon the Kyuubi.



Don't use a term if you don't know what it means, Bender. The clan had already resolved to start a coup after the attack, and compromise broke down. They have their hands in this just as much as the council did. 



> And funnily enough I DID NOT ONCE say that. However, if his actions still lead to helping secure peace and didn't lead to the lifestyles of people going to shit you can hardly say they were damaging.
> 
> The only thing you you can get on Sasuke's case for is his friends being unbelievably and ridiculously Yandere towards him.



You actually did, it's what you've been arguing from the start.

No, they aren't being "yandere", that's not even its correct usage. He betrayed them, committed various crimes so of course they don't trust him. The things you can blame Sasuke for is everything he did leading up to his defection. 



> Tobirama's mistakes carried over more than just to the Uchiha clan. He's responsible for the Ame-orphans descent into darkness. Because of how butthurt he was for not being made Hokage he decided to enact all sorts of whacked out plots to ensure he gained the title.



I think you mean Madara. 



> Also as Obito noted he had also planned on taking control of Naruto using his Sharingan. He had done so much crap that wasn't  regular village proceedings that were damaging to Konoha it could take up an officer's notepad for writing down a ticket.



You mean Madara...



> They had their own matters to deal with. Last I checked they're the police and as Orochimaru stated they became conceited with the power given to them. They were put outside the village's politics.



No one can be faulted for that conceit but them. It was a mistake that Tobirama thought it would be good to give them such a position, but anything regarding their own attitudes is their responsibility. 



> We're obviously reading a different manga because last I checked Sasuke RAN a faction. Naruto  has been a genin for like ever and has no knowledge outside of anything except combat.



Obviously, since you think Tobirama has a Sharingan. 



Bender said:


> It wasn't just the demon Gaara himself had those homicidal thoughts himself.



No, it was explicitly stated that the demon fueled Gaara's bloodlust, on top of his already mentally fragile state. 



> Also sasuke has the "Curse of hatred" thing which makes him go batshit like it does all Uchiha.



It's a metaphorical term, not an actual curse.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

@CandleGuy

Sasuke didn't kill Killer bee. Killer bee lived

Sasuke wasn't going to kill the samurai until they were coming after him. 

Sasuke was only intending to kill Danzo and Danzo only.

@Kresh

Sasuke didn't even know about Obito's stupid eye of the moon plan. All Obito said was "Capture a bijuu and I'll help you." Obito never went into detail about his plan with Sasuke.


----------



## Gilgamesh (May 24, 2013)

You ever see those crazy women who love and want to marry serial killers and rapists?

That's what Sasuke's apologists look like


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Uchiha Ryken said:


> Blowing up a village doesn't come close to what Sasuke has done? There are so many "attempted" and "almost" phrases in Sasuke's crimes, but Pain and Konan literally invaded Konoha and then blew it up. After killing some large number of people, Pain had a chat with Naruto, said he was sorry and brought people back to life, and then Konan was allowed to just take his body and leave.
> 
> Note that I am not for one second excusing Sasuke's actions. I'm just saying that they are completely irrelevant to the Narutoverse theme. If I lived in Konoha, I'd want them to string him up in front of the town square, but that's just not going to happen, whether he "deserves" it or not.
> 
> I also would have arrested  and executed Konan for her crimes. But she got a pass too.



Konan never attempted to become the Hokage or join the village.  That's the difference here.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Has Sasuke harmed an innocent village?
> 
> Has he killed anyone who didn't try to kill him?
> 
> No he didn't.



He invaded Lighting country that had nothing to do with his vendetta and attempted to kidnap Bee.

He has killed the Samurai that were only defending their country. He was responsible for the confrontation, as he was a criminal that intended to kill someone that their country agreed to protect. 



> Unless he has committed anything even coming remotely close to mass slaughter or the above mentioned than he can't be imprisoned.



That's so stupid. You're shifting the goalpost because he has committed actual serious crimes, so you just make an arbitrary standard on what's acceptable in the face of that. 

I remember before the Kage Summit, it was the criteria that as long as Sasuke didn't kill, redemption was OK. Now that he has killed, he has to do it en masse now. 



> You're being biased.
> 
> The things shown in the war like Orochimaru sending out the Edo Tensei hokage is something that gets a person a pardon for their crimes.



That only shows how disingenuous the ideals of those such as Naruto and Sasuke are. Edo Tensei is an abomination, Orochimaru has done abominable things and nothing will undo that. A single good deed does not excuse a lifetime of atrocities. 



> @BlinkST
> 
> My thoughts exactly
> 
> Seto Kaiba injuerd yugi's grandpa and yet I don't hear Yugi bitching about it in the Duelist Kingdom arc the next time he sees him.





BlinkST said:


> It's not a matter of bad. It's a question of *bad enough*
> 
> Why is a guy called "Seto Kaiba" acting like a Holier than thou friend



Deflection. The hallmark of desperation.


----------



## Kaix (May 24, 2013)

Saying he requires punishment is to put the cart before the horse. Punishment exists to deter negative behavior so that if you do wrong you get wronged. He has already committed the crimes and has found his own reason to do right so he has already learned. It's the reason for mercy, in that you don't punish, or much more lightly punish those that have already gained a reason to do the right thing that surpasses the fear of punishment.

This seems counter intuitive, and perhaps unfair, but life simply isn't fair anyway. A similar concept can be seen in the realm of teaching. Test scores and grades are focused heavily on for bureaucracy, and inter-student competition, but such a heavy focus is what is destroying the education system. If all that matters is a grade, then actual learning isn't important and cutting down on cheating techniques is a logistic impossibility. Where the two concepts connect is that if a student has, by the end of the term, a superior mastery of the course, should they have a worse grade than those with and inferior understanding, but more consistent grades through the term? No. It may have simply taken the first student a longer time to grasp the material, but they eventually mastered it to a better degree, and it is the same with this situation of punishment. Sasuke did a lot of wrong, but he now looks to do right and so punishment would be redundant.

The only reason for him to go through the punishment now would be to prove to the others that he is willing to do right, but he has Naruto, that universes strongest empath, to read his heart via chakra and convey the truth to the others. Of course, Sasuke's current mindset is pre-war Naruto's I'll-do-everything-myself and I-don't-need-no-acknowledgement so he has a lot to learn, but Naruto does to and I assume that the final battle will be both who deserves to become Hokage and in what way the system should be changed as it seems that Sasuke and Naruto have different ideas on that.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Uchiha Ryken said:


> Blowing up a village doesn't come close to what Sasuke has done? There are so many "attempted" and "almost" phrases in Sasuke's crimes, but Pain and Konan literally invaded Konoha and then blew it up. After killing some large number of people, Pain had a chat with Naruto, said he was sorry and brought people back to life, and then Konan was allowed to just take his body and leave.
> 
> Note that I am not for one second excusing Sasuke's actions. I'm just saying that they are completely irrelevant to the Narutoverse theme. If I lived in Konoha, I'd want them to string him up in front of the town square, but that's just not going to happen, whether he "deserves" it or not.
> 
> I also would have arrested  and executed Konan for her crimes. But she got a pass too.



Nagato sacrificed his life before anyone besides Naruto could even think of what to do. 

Konan was soon killed afterwards fighting Obito

*There was no imprisonment for them because they died.*

 look at that in the manga most of the redemption people had to give up their lives. 

Besides Naruto's empathy

Missing-nin are killed. Hiruzen eventually decided Oro needed to die, Hash decided to kill Madara. 

KARIN WAS IMPRISONED

KISAME WAS CAPTURED AS A CRIMINAL

Naruto may speak for EVERYONE in the future but not now and even then if Sasuke comes out of this unscathed its a clear case of favoritism on Naruto's part and its an asshole move.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> @CandleGuy
> 
> Sasuke didn't kill Killer bee. Killer bee lived
> 
> ...



What the hell?

Since when does it become OK to try and kill people so long as you don't succeed? 



> @Kresh
> 
> Sasuke didn't even know about Obito's stupid eye of the moon plan. All Obito said was "Capture a bijuu and I'll help you." Obito never went into detail about his plan with Sasuke.



It doesn't excuse Sasuke at all, because the specific act he agreed to do was criminal in itself.


----------



## Cord (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This is such a dumb criteria, he's done plenty to be vilified for. He's killed people, he's betrayed everyone he's ever come across, conspired with international terrorist groups, and put his former comrades at risk due to his reckless actions.



Who hasn't killed anyone though? Who else did he kill besides Danzo? And by that I mean, someone who isn't trying to kill him first. True, but from what I'm seeing, the ones he betrayed and whose lives he risked, are now the exact same group of people who are currently fighting alongside him. 

A wrong act might never be undone, but can still be made up for by doing it right this time. And Sasuke has plenty of chances to do that in the succeeding chapters. If that's what the author intends him to do, that is.



> Whether or not war would have happened doesn't excuse him at all. Criminals reform all the time, but that doesn't absolve them of their crimes.



I never said that he should be absolved of his crimes though. All I'm saying is that he isn't worthy to be vilified/ punished anymore, considering that he is a mere victim himself and seemingly working his way towards redemption.



> No, because he grew up in the same system everyone else did. He ran to a man that would have turned the world into a living hell, and then to ones that intend to put it in an eternal illusion that they control. There are many that have had it as bad as he did if not worse, yet did not snap so easily.



Because who didn't? It took him six years plus two encounters of mental torture before he finally decided to leave his own village. He already had a predisposed issue following the murder of his clan which was further exacerbated by his encounters with Itachi.

The only time he really snapped was after Obito's revelation about his brother whom he has always despised and believed to be his ultimate enemy. And it took him that, combined the years of misery and deception attributed to a flawed system. Growing up in the same system is irrelevant considering that each and everyone still have different personal issues of different magnitude.

Why should Sasuke be the same?



> You guys have the worst sense of crime and culpability, I swear.



Because you have it best, right?


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

HOLY SHIT wall of text 0_0







> Don't use a term if you don't know what it means, Bender. The clan had already resolved to start a coup after the attack, and compromise broke down.



No the clan was eying the the village with suspicion because of the policies which made them look like outcast. The village likewise did after the Kyuubi attack.



> *You actually did, it's what you've been arguing from the start.*



Unless I said it word for word you can say I did. I didn't. You're implying that I did. Don't put words in my mouth.



> No, they aren't being "yandere", that's not even its correct usage. He betrayed them, committed various crimes so of course they don't trust him. The things you can blame Sasuke for is everything he did leading up to his defection.


 
The "crimes" he did are leaving their village, and doing things so he could find Itachi. He hasn't even once tried to assault the village, at least until he was told the awful truth by Obito.




> I think you mean Madara.



Remember the incident with Hanzo and Danzo teaming up with him to take down Akatsuki? 



Yeah that shit is on him.




> You mean Madara...



Seriously, dude i know you're indifferent or whatever to this manga but i'm not going to keep holding your hand guiding you to the proper passages I'm talking about.

Look at Danzo's bio. 





> No one can be faulted for that conceit but them. It was a mistake that Tobirama thought it would be good to give them such a position, but anything regarding their own attitudes is their responsibility.



If they're in a position where they're unable to control themselves and it becomes clear that their state is also prison since they can't put their input in matters in the village. Yeah it is somewhat his fault.



> Obviously, since you think Tobirama has a Sharingan.



You're misreading like a mofo dude. I was talking about Danzo and the Sharingan's he had on his arm. Obito said he was going to use some of them to even take control of Naruto.



> No, it was explicitly stated that the demon fueled Gaara's bloodlust, on top of his already mentally fragile state.



Shukaku could only take full control of him when his mental state fell immensely or if he fell asleep. Read again.



> It's a metaphorical term, not an actual curse.



Another example of you not reading:


----------



## BlinkST (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> So Sasuke failing by happenstance to succeed to do evil means he never attempted or intended to do foul shit?


No, he did evil shit. Question is if it was *evil enough* 

Sasuke has too much dirt on Konoha to not become Hokage at this point Fuck are they supposed to do without looking like hypocrites?


----------



## Csdabest (May 24, 2013)

Kumo had to ask for permission to kill Sasuke. Because it would cause too much trouble to do it outright to carry out punishment to another villages shinob weather missing or not.


The only real crimes that seem to occur in this manga is Leaving Your village and selling secrets to the other villages

Killing your comrades and attempting Murder on High officails. Other than that you seem to be scott free. Maybe stealing and killing civilians but thats it. 

Kakashi killed rin. Yeah he had his reasoning. But I doubt they found a body cuz it seems Obito took it with him. So we just have Kakahsi killing rin with no problems.

The only crimes he can really actually be accounted for is leaving the village. Well He coming back. Nullified. He didnt sell any of his village secrets out. UNLIKE FUCKING DANZO WHO GAVE OROCHIMARU KONOHA's ANBU INTEL SPECIFICALLY SO HE CAN LAUNCH ANOTHER ATTACK. Danzo was conspiring against konoha and selling secrets and all that other dark shit.

If Sasuke got charged for anything besides leaving the village without any permission. Then everyone who funded akatsuki, hired them, attempted to kidnap another nations shinobi to aquire bloodlines, or another nations jinchuuriki, or stepped foot on another nations land should be charged. ANyone who made an attempt on any other shinobi life should be charged and anyone who ever killed ashinobi needs to be charged.

THATS how retarded Sasuke being charged for anything other than village abandonment is absolute retarded because everyone would be guilty of atleast ONE of the charges sasuke would supposedly be facing. Sasuke now has the Hokages to even Vouch for his story of how konoha killed his clan off because they couldnt reach peace talks. This is happening because of konoha policy. If Tobirama simply just let Hashirama let Madara become Hokage. Respecting the fact that he knows damn well that Uchiha have a stigma in their brains to cause them to be controlled by their hatred.  if he let him become Kage. None of this would have happen.

If Sasuke holds trial. He has Kages to back up his story. I doubt after all that has happened. Hiruzen would still keep his mouth shut about the massacre. So like I said. Sasuke is walking away scott free. Will be pardoned by Konoha. If the other villages have anything to say about it. I like to see them do anything against konoha military might with Sasuke and Naruto backing it. It would be best to just let shit slide.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> @CandleGuy
> 
> Sasuke didn't kill Killer bee. Killer bee lived
> 
> ...



Wait so intentions matter in one part but intentions don't matter on the other?

That does not compute


Sasuke invaded their land and they tried to defend their home and guests  and he killed them for that

Bee was going to be killed. So because Sauske failed to get Bee killed there was no crime?


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> No, he did evil shit. Question is if it was *evil enough*



Karin was imprisoned


----------



## Tony Lou (May 24, 2013)

"No unaccountability, no excuses"?


----------



## Jeαnne (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> Gaara sacrificed himself
> 
> Technically he died


ohh, so we have a problem here.

Gaara can be redeemed throught getting killed by Akatsuki, right?

All the people that he killed, makes no difference, just because he died, cool.

But Sasuke, who is saving the world right now, cant be redeemed in any way, impressive.


----------



## Uchiha Ryken (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Was it not explained that one, the current Kage of the village had been manipulated by Orochimaru, and that the village was forced to comply or face destruction?
> 
> Zabuza's death was his repentance.
> 
> ...



Yes, it was explained that way. But that doesn't take away the "evil" of it. Some random cloud nin was killed when the Hyuuga protected their heir, and they demanded recompense. Konoha gave up Neji's father. Why didn't Konoha say "You don't understand, we had to kill him, he was being mean!" if that was a valid excuse? You say just a couple paragraphs below that all themes in the manga are reflections of the real world. If someone is forced to go on a killing spree because their life is threatened, do they get a free pass?

I'll agree to death equaling compensation and regret, as well as respect without labeling an enemy a friend. 

Being a gambler isn't illegal, but she lost all the time. Why would you put someone so terrible with finances at the head of your village? She may not have been evil, but she was certainly foolish and immature upon taking the office. You can forgive a child for doing something stupid where they didn't expect the consequences, but can you forgive a 50 year old woman for the same? I'm not necessarily comparing her "crimes" to Sasuke's, but saying that, in general, Kishimoto's manga is very optimistic and future-focused. The characters don't seem to dwell on past mistakes very much except their own in guilt.

I agree, it is a horrible argument- if I were making an argument for Sasuke's pardon. But I'm not. I'm making a case for what I believe will be Sasuke's fate. Does he deserve punishment? Absolutely. Will he get it? No. Because that's just not the way this manga has functioned from its inception. You can hate the horrid scales of justice in this manga, but they exist all the same.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He invaded Lighting country that had nothing to do with his vendetta and attempted to kidnap Bee.



He kidnapped Bee because Obito was going to help him get his revenge on the the leaf village when he thought they didn't give two shits about his clan.



> He has killed the Samurai that were only defending their country. He was responsible for the confrontation, as he was a criminal that intended to kill someone that their country agreed to protect.



Since when did they agree to protect Danzo? 

Last I checked, before Sasuke was even notified of being there he was manipulating the hell out of shit until Ao pointed out he was fucking with all of them.



> That's so stupid. You're shifting the goalpost because he has committed actual serious crimes, so you just make an arbitrary standard on what's acceptable in the face of that.





> I remember before the Kage Summit, it was the criteria that as long as Sasuke didn't kill, redemption was OK. Now that he has killed, he has to do it en masse now.



Last I checked the samurai attacked him first and he didn't make it clear that he was going to kill them. 



> That only shows how disingenuous the ideals of those such as Naruto and Sasuke are. *Edo Tensei is an abomination*,



Okay, now you're being hypocritical. First you were turning the other cheek to Tobirama's actions and now you're saying  "Edo Tensei" is an abomination. Who created Edo Tensei?


*Spoiler*: __ 





This guy did






> Orochimaru has done abominable things and nothing will undo that. A single good deed does not excuse a lifetime of atrocities.



Orochimaru was another person who went batshit due to the ninja system. He didn't just wake up one day and decide to be an evil bastard. Sasuke dissected his motives and it became clear he didn't do what he did to be a dick.  Also you're being incredibly morally myopic.





> Deflection. The hallmark of desperation.



Actually me and blink are just being mocking of how holier than you you're being

this is an example of hypocrisy you showed



> That only shows how disingenuous the ideals of those such as Naruto and Sasuke are. *Edo Tensei is an abomination*,



And yet you're saying some things are NOT ENTIRELY HIS FAULT. Even though Edo Tensei is one of the most abused jutsus in the Naruto world.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Kumo had to ask for permission to kill Sasuke. Because it would cause too much trouble to do it outright to carry out punishment to another villages shinob weather missing or not.
> 
> 
> The only real crimes that seem to occur in this manga is Leaving Your village and selling secrets to the other villages
> ...






The bolded especially is crazy talk

The fact that you would compare Rin doing suicide via comrade to  Sasuke having at least 3 attempts to kill his team members is fucking outrageous.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Who hasn't killed anyone though?



One, most ninjas don't kill wantonly and on whims like Sasuke do. There does exist a concept of murder in this universe that was made clear Sasuke and those like him have violated. 

Second, most ninjas don't kill as an active part of their profession. Ninjas are a defense force first and foremost, and only a very select few actively engage in assassination. The most time a ninja will face mortal combat is during wartime, or apprehending dangerous criminals like Sasuke. 



> Who else did he kill besides Danzo? And by that I mean, someone who isn't trying to kill him first.



He invaded the Iron Country, he was the hostile force in that confrontation. He was going to attempt to kill the Kage to get to Danzo on top of that. 



> True, but from what I'm seeing, the ones he betrayed and whose lives he risked, are now the exact same group of people who are currently fighting alongside him.



Only because he has decided to do so. They still obviously have not forgotten what he has done, and his reform doesn't undo his wrongdoings. 



> A wrong act might never be undone, but can still be made up for by doing it right this time. And Sasuke has plenty of chances to do that in the succeeding chapters. If that's what the author intends him to do, that is.



Criminals can reform, but reformation does not mean they don't answer for their crimes. 



> I never said that he should be absolved of his crimes though. All I'm saying is that he isn't worthy to be vilified/ punished anymore, considering that he is a mere victim himself and seemingly working his way towards redemption.



He's more than in a position to be punished and vilified. There is always a "too late". Being a victim does not justify making others victims. Criminals often start out as victims as a matter of fact, of all kinds. 



> Because who didn't? It took him six years plus two encounters of mental torture before he finally decided to leave his own village. He already had a predisposed issue following the murder of his clan which was exacerbated by his encounters with Itachi.



He had his circumstances and his struggles, but they only explain why he went in particular ways and did certain things, but it doesn't make them justified. 



> The only time he really snapped was after Obito's revelation about his brother whom he has always despised and believed to be his ultimate enemy. And it took him that combined years of misery and deception attributed to a flawed system. Growing up in the same system is irrelevant considering that everyone has different personal issues of different magnitude.



He also lost it amidst growing insecurity over Naruto's growth, when he first tried to kill him. It's partially because of his own failure to heed the advice of Kakashi, and listen to the pleas of his comrades that allowed himself to fall as low as he did. 



> Why should Sasuke be the same?



Struggle and adversity is a reality, it's all on how one reacts to it. 



> Because you have it best, right?



Maybe not the best, but better.


----------



## BlinkST (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> Karin was imprisoned


On whose authority?


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> Wait so intentions matter in one part but intentions don't matter on the other?



Danzo has committed just as much obnoxious atrocities as Orochimaru (not on a similar number of casualties tho). 






> Sasuke invaded their land and they tried to defend their home and guests  and he killed them for that



You can call someone who fucks with your hospitality a guest? Especially when that person is Danzo? 



> Bee was going to be killed. So because Sauske failed to get Bee killed there was no crime?



All Sasuke was told to do was capture Bee. He was never told "capture him so we can kill him". 

Seriously now you're just reaching


----------



## Jeαnne (May 24, 2013)

oh man i love Gaara. All arguments against Sasuke getting redeemed just get stomped because Gaara is a prime example of how someone who has commited crimes before can get away and even become kage in Naruto.

The best part is that Gaara himself offered this to Sasuke, so yeah, go talk with Kishi.

Btw, i bet that this Uchiha genetic stuff will be the biggest excuse here, even Madara might be redeemed. "Uchihas are Juubi spawns, they have no fault", i see it coming a mile away . Rikudou might just be rolling on the battlefield soon enough blaming it all on Juubi's evil will.


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## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> ohh, so we have a problem here.
> 
> Gaara can be redeemed throught getting killed by Akatsuki, right?
> 
> ...



First of all Gaara and Sauske are not the same character but that's beyond your realm of understanding it seems. 

But I find the attempt at fighting to become "Hokage" not to necessarily save the world for the world's sake but really just to have his way is being compared to giving up your life highly amusing.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Kaiba

By your logic the Tsuchikage Ohnoki should be jailed for using Akatsuki in the past even though he's displaying actions in the current war.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (May 24, 2013)

As far as the Danzo thing, with the uchiha clan being loved so dearly in konoha, Learning that Uchiha Itachi was conscripted to commit genocide on behalf of Konoha is NOT going to sit right with everyone.

There is still some sort of measure of habeas corpus in konohagakure. Now, the problem was that the members of the military police were in fact the ones behind the treasonous plot, BUT that doesn't mean they should have been assassinated. They deserved their day in court. That right was denied. They were citizens, and EVERY right they had was taken away.

Was killing danzo legal? No.
Was it just in the eyes of their culture? absolutely.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Danzo has committed just as much obnoxious atrocities as Orochimaru (not on a similar number of casualties tho).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reaching?

There's nothing consistent about anything your saying. You suddenly deflect to Danzo and Oro when I showed


> Sasuke intended on sending Bee to his death


But you said because he didn't intend to kill any Samurai when he invaded their country he didn't do anything bad

It makes no fucking sense


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> I never said it does. Though what Sasuke should be imprisoned when he was fucked from the get-go and his entire fate trapped by a government conspiracy? If it wasn't for Itachi being alive for so long then Danzo and his Root operation would've had his throat slit in his sleep.


Bender, we're friends but come the hell on. Sasuke should be imprisoned, he commited grave crimes and is completely responsible for his actions. 

Danzo wouldn't have slit Sasuke's throat as long was Sasuke was loyal to Konoha. He honored the deal for _five years after Itachi left_, made zero attempts on Sasuke's life, and even commended Hiruzen's choice of making Kakashi Sasuke's sensei.




> Sasuke's whole life story is more politically aligned and therefore it was inevitable that he would gain the knowledge which details the flaws of which drove his clan into a corner. Once it became apparent that the Uchiha had been politically exiled from the villages politics of course they were gonna go ape. Also became even more object of suspicion when Obito like a dickhead instigated the kyuubi attack on Konoha.


...the Uchiha weren't 'politically exiled'. They weren't victims. They were power hungry bastards which Obito led on into rebellion to eliminate them. 

Dude, come on, the Uchiha aren't victims and never will be, the manga's continually presented them in the wrong.


> EDIT:
> 
> Sasuke has more entitlement and it makes more sense for him to be hokage than Naruto. A hero isn't a leader and from the start his dream is more selfish than sensible.


Naruto is a far better leader than Sasuke. He's actually PROTECTED people. He's actually put his life on the line to save others. Hell he's more level headed and ready to listen to reason than Sasuke is.


----------



## Csdabest (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> The bolded especially is crazy talk
> 
> The fact that you would compare Rin doing suicide via comrade to  Sasuke having at least 3 attempts to kill his team members is fucking outrageous.



How would they know Rin commited suicide. Even if OBITO DIDNT TAKE THE BODY. All they would have is a hole in Rin by Kakashi Body. The lack of evidence is astounding to support the other wise.

But hey lets look at what Sasuke has done. And has been recorded to do. And credited for

1. Kill Zabuza. A Criminal who made an attempt on the Mizu feudal lord
2. Killing Orochimaru and freeing a bunch of people from inhumane experiments and returning them to their families
3. Killing Itachi uchiha who killed plenty and was an international criminal(Yeah we know the truth but he still did it in the publics eyes)
4. Killed Deidara. An international terrorist that is responsible for bombings in multiple nations
5. Help End the Edo Tensei army. Will probably be fully credited for that because only sasuke was at the scene. And Anko will probably be somehow able to vouch for that if not Orochimaru can who is being used by Sasuke. Oonoki out of his own mouth Credited who ever is responsible for that is a HERO OF THE SHINOBI WORLD.
6. Ressurected orochimaru and ordered him to have the kages assist the alliance and saved them. That bijuudama would have killed Naruto ending the alliances hope for survival.

Sasuke is a hero to the SHinobi world and has done more good for it than bad. The bad he has done doesnt even compare to what the other villages and his own village has done. Even when it concerns the whole Akatsuki ordeal


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

There is nothing just about Danzo.

Everything he's done has been self-serving. While Orochimaru's villainous actions weren't dedicated to fucking over someone's life.



CandleGuy said:


> First of all Gaara and Sauske are not the same character but that's beyond your realm of understanding it seems.



Gaara has still killed people, same as Sasuke. And no matter how much you white wash it because of who it was done to it still can be called wrong.


----------



## Csdabest (May 24, 2013)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> As far as the Danzo thing, with the uchiha clan being loved so dearly in konoha, Learning that Uchiha Itachi was conscripted to commit genocide on behalf of Konoha is NOT going to sit right with everyone.
> 
> There is still some sort of measure of habeas corpus in konohagakure. Now, the problem was that the members of the military police were in fact the ones behind the treasonous plot, BUT that doesn't mean they should have been assassinated. They deserved their day in court. That right was denied. They were citizens, and EVERY right they had was taken away.
> 
> ...



Exactly. The genocide went beyond the coup. Children and people who werent even involved where killed. The only reason Sasuke was even spared is because Danzo used him as leverage against Itachi to make him go through with it. They commited extermination of an entire clan based on the criminal acts and plotting of the few. This predjudice while not commited by all of konoha seem to have been a running thing with konoha.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Aazadan said:


> Sasuke's reason for wanting to become hokage is a hell of a lot better than Narutos.  Naruto just wants it for the recognition of being the biggest badass around and that stems out of a childhood where no one recognized him.  Naruto would be quite bad at the job.  He believes that you will do as he says or he'll kick your ass, he doesn't accept others opinions, and he has no clue how to actually lead.  Naruto's only good quality in becoming Hokage is that he recognizes the chain of hatred and has actually taken his own steps towards breaking it.  However, he has no way of convincing others to follow in his footsteps other than threatening violence on them for not complying, which sounds an awful lot like Nagato's solution in the end.


Narutos' reason for becoming Hokage is that he wants to protect everyone. He's no longer that stupid 13 year old kid you're describing. 

Naruto has no way of convincing others? Have you even been reading the series? People _want to follow him_. He's changed people for the better over and over again. He has been leading the *entire fucking ninja world for the latter half of the War arc into the Ten-Tails Revival Arc*. He's been leading, protecting, and saving lives for nearly an entire real world year.


> Contrast that with Sasuke who has seen the absolute worst of the ninja world, knows what drives it, and wants to make sure that the atrocities which happened to him and his family, don't happen to anyone ever again.  He knows the mindset of being overtaken by hatred, he knows what drives it, and he knows how nations act to perpetuate it.  On top of that, unlike Naruto he has some leadership experience, leading his own team of missing nins.


And Sasuke is a criminal who betrayed Konoha, killed one of its leaders in cold blood, bragged about wanting to slaughter every man woman and child in Konoha, attacked his teammates from Konoha with deadly intent THRICE, abandoned Team Taka at the drop of a hat...

Sasuke isn't Hokage material. And he needs to be punished. Naruto has far more, and far better leadership experience now through his feats in the War Arc.


----------



## BlinkST (May 24, 2013)

To say Sasuke must be "punished", while Konoha walks away scot-free for what happened in the past, is nothing but hypocrisy


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> There is nothing just about Danzo.
> 
> Everything he's done has been self-serving. While Orochimaru's villainous actions weren't dedicated to fucking over someone's life.


Danzo is a Well Intentioned Extremist. Everything he's done, however misguided, was for the benefit of Konoha. He gets his hands dirty when the Hokage cannot.

Bender...come on.


> Gaara has still killed people, same as Sasuke. And no matter how much you white wash it because of who it was done to it still can be called wrong.


Gaara was a literally abused boy with a demon put inside him that made him unable to sleep till his teens. Not only that, he killed mostly in self defense. 

There is a clear difference between Sasuke and Gaara.



BlinkST said:


> To say Sasuke must be "punished", while Konoha walks away scot-free for what happened in the past, is nothing but hypocrisy


Yeah, putting down a rebellion of entitled, mentally ill bastards is hypocritical!


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> No the clan was eying the the village with suspicion because of the policies which made them look like outcast. The village likewise did after the Kyuubi attack.



That doesn't address anything I stated. After the attack, the Uchiha planned their coup, this is a fact. Yes, Tobirama's policies were unfair and damaging but they do not take away from the clan's responsibility in their own resolve to attempt an action that would result in war where not only they would be wiped out, but the entire village. 



> Unless I said it word for word you can say I did. I didn't. You're implying that I did. Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> The "crimes" he did are leaving their village, and doing things so he could find Itachi. He hasn't even once tried to assault the village, at least until he was told the awful truth by Obito.



This glossing over Sasuke's actions seem to be a characteristic in defense of Sasuke. He didn't just leave the village, he left it for a man that had intentions to destroy it and leave the world in ruins, and he desired Sasuke's body as the catalyst for those goals. That's only the consequence of allying with Sound however; there is also Akatsuki, and his own actions afterward. 



> Remember the incident with Hanzo and Danzo teaming up with him to take down Akatsuki?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that shit is on him.



Tobirama was dead by the time those events took place. That was Danzo's underhanded tactics for power. You can argue that Tobirama may have had some kind of role in forming Danzo's outlook, but not for Danzo's actions. Tobirama has his own sins, as does Danzo. 



> Seriously, dude i know you're indifferent or whatever to this manga but i'm not going to keep holding your hand guiding you to the proper passages I'm talking about.



You don't even know what it is you're talking about. 



> Look at Danzo's bio.



Then you were conflating Tobirama's actions with Danzo's. Which is ridiculous. 



> If they're in a position where they're unable to control themselves and it becomes clear that their state is also prison since they can't put their input in matters in the village. Yeah it is somewhat his fault.



Yes, like I stated they both have responsibility. It should never have been done in the first place, but at the same time, the clan should not have resolved on a course of bloodshed to remedy the situation, as it would not have been a remedy at all...



> You're misreading like a mofo dude. I was talking about Danzo and the Sharingan's he had on his arm. Obito said he was going to use some of them to even take control of Naruto.



Then say "Danzo" not "Tobirama". 



> Shukaku could only take full control of him when his mental state fell immensely or if he fell asleep. Read again.



He could override his conscience in sleep, but Shukaku always influenced Gaara's own personality. It is due to a mixture of fatigue, psychological trauma, and Shukaku's own maliciousness that made Gaara what he was. 



> Another example of you not reading:



_is an *ideal of enmity *that was said to have been passed down throughout the generations by the Uchiha clan's forefather to the members of his lineage._ 

The first entry alone refutes your point, since evidently you don't know what an ideal is: 



> *ideal*
> 1: existing as an archetypal idea
> 
> 2 a : existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only; broadly:  lacking practicality
> ...



So like I stated "Curse" is metaphorical.

Clearly, I read more than you.



Bender said:


> Kaiba
> 
> By your logic the Tsuchikage Ohnoki should be jailed for using Akatsuki in the past even though he's displaying actions in the current war.



That only shows like the Elders in Konoha, he's been in a seat of power far too long. A nation hiring mercenaries is underhanded, but it is evidently not illegal.

One attempt of deflection after another...


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

> Sasuke should be imprisoned, he commited grave crimes and is completely responsible for his actions.





Yeah and imprisoning Sasuke would only prove the bias of the leaf even though sasuke did a load of help for their asses. 

1. Canceling the mass Edo Tensei with Itachi's help
2. Taking out Danzo's selfish obstructive political ass self
3. Leading the hokages to the battlefield.  

The list goes on.




> Danzo wouldn't have slit Sasuke's throat as long was Sasuke was loyal to Konoha.



I see I'm going to guide you as I am Seto. Look at the story Obito told to Sasuke, Itachi had to threaten Danzo not to lay a hand on Sasuke. His orders were to kill all the Uchiha. SASUKE INCLUDED.




> ...the Uchiha weren't 'politically exiled'. They weren't victims. They were power hungry bastards which Obito led on into rebellion to eliminate them.



Shodaime, Orochimaru and everyone could see that their actions lead to the Uchiha being lead into extinction. Tobirama's actions especially lead them to be conceited but also to their realization they were kept out of important decisions.




> Dude, come on, the Uchiha aren't victims and never will be, the manga's continually presented them in the wrong.





> Naruto is a far better leader than Sasuke. He's actually PROTECTED people.



And Sasuke helping Itachi cancel Edo Tensei isn't? Look at the post Cordelia quoted "The Tsuchikage even said the person who canceled it should be given a medal". That's helping on a large scale. 

Naruto's ambition to become hokage has been from the start so he'll receive acknowledgement .  Plus, Naruto knows nothing of the history of Konoha. He's a hero, not a leader.


----------



## Jeαnne (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> First of all Gaara and Sauske are not the same character but that's beyond your realm of understanding it seems.
> 
> But I find the attempt at fighting to become "Hokage" not to necessarily save the world for the world's sake but really just to have his way is being compared to giving up your life highly amusing.


oh, so since they are not the same character, they should be judged in different ways by the law of the ninja world, or one is allowed to be redeemed and the other not?


Sasuke is attempting to fight to become Hokage? AHHAHA, oh god, wtf is this. The guy just decided to go to the battlefield to help stop Madara and the eye of the moon plan, his decision was the difference between destroying konoha and having the alliance getting blasted to bits by a juubidama, but there is no point, right?

Lets see, Sasuke is just there putting his life in line, to fight to save the world, but its also pointless, because if he luckly doesnt die while attempting to save them, its not enough...damn. Actually, Sasuke might just die, but you know he is coming back if he does .

Sasuke is fighting to protect konoha, he is fighting to finish what Itachi started, he is fighting because he doesnt want the world to end. *Become Hokage for the sake of trying to fix the mess that Konoha is,* *is just his new goal*, *its his own attempt at finding a solution to the BS that has been happening this whole time*, *and has resulted in this war.* He has just listened to the whole story, and he wants to fix the core of the problem, just this. 

Then again, by the way that you guys think, he is probably just even more of a criminal for even daring to think of fixing this shit.


----------



## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

And here comes the tired argument that Sasuke needs to be punished and tortured and executed and blah blah blah. Its a manga people. Pein destroyed an entire village and killed hundreds in the process and then they were all resurrected in one fell swoop. Gaara was a bloodlusting, sadistic, psychotic killer and became Kazekage. Kakashi killed Rin, etc etc. Fuck it was even implied that Zabuza, a cold-blooded murder received salvation in the end. These people have all done horrible things but have been pardoned/forgiven/saved what have you. It's fiction. Real world rules don't really apply, they never have.

And assuming they did, these people would all have to face some sort of judgement as well. But of course the naruto fans don't clamor and moan and gnash their teeth for those other shinobi to face corporeal punishment. But Sasuke, oh Sasuke; he's different. 

 I'm not saying that Sasuke deserves to get off scot free necessarily, but I am questioning why we are holding him to a different standard than anyone else in the Shinobi world who has betrayed, killed, murdered or lied.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

> Danzo is a Well Intentioned Extremist. Everything he's done, however misguided, was for the benefit of Konoha.



Stop thinking simple and be serious. No he hasn't. If he was always thinking about the village he wouldn't be as hypocritical in mentality in his belief of "sacrifice" when he took Karin hostage before Sasuke killed him. Also who helped kill the Ame orphans along with Hanzo? Right he did.

I hardly see how helping destroy a charitable organization like the early Akatsuki (before Nagato went Pain) as is for the village.Moreover he did it to become hokage.




Seto Kaiba said:


> That doesn't address anything I stated. After the attack, the Uchiha planned their coup, this is a fact. Yes, Tobirama's policies were unfair and damaging but they do not take away from the clan's responsibility in their own resolve to attempt an action that would result in war where not only they would be wiped out, but the entire village.



And still the village had not at all made any serious attempts at negotiating with them. The stupid give them special accommodations is pathetic. The line of hokages wasn't diverse nor anything. Also like Madara's prophetic words they became subjugated (although yes it was his fault) and there were groups dedicated to Madara's ideals.



> This glossing over Sasuke's actions seem to be a characteristic in defense of Sasuke. He didn't just leave the village, he left it for a man that had intentions to destroy it and leave the world in ruins, and he desired Sasuke's body as the catalyst for those goals.



And yet you're leaving out how Sasuke didn't kill Naruto and yet 2 years later he betrayed Orochimaru. Even though it seemed like to Naruto that he was going to help Orochimaru destroy the leaf village.





> Tobirama was dead by the time those events took place. That was Danzo's underhanded tactics for power. You can argue that Tobirama may have had some kind of role in forming Danzo's outlook, but not for Danzo's actions. Tobirama has his own sins, as does Danzo.



And still it doesn't change the fact that Tobirama really did Danzo wrong. 

He screwed over Sai

He screwed over Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko

He messed up Kabuto

He would've killed Sasuke if Itachi didn't keep threatening him.



> So like I stated "Curse" is metaphorical.
> 
> Clearly, I read more than you.



And yet the rest of the entry goes on to talk about the Uchiha. You're stopping abruptly in your reading.


Also having Akatsuki do dirty work is still underhanded. Even if Ohnoki didn't know their motives it's still just as bad.


----------



## Renyou (May 24, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> Btw, i bet that this Uchiha genetic stuff will be the biggest excuse here, even Madara might be redeemed. "Uchihas are Juubi spawns, they have no fault", i see it coming a mile away . Rikudou might just be rolling on the battlefield soon enough blaming it all on Juubi's evil will.


I believe Kakashi (read:Kishi) already pointed the finger at the ninja system for Sasuke's actions, so you don't have to look very far for the excuse.

As for Gaara... we were able to sympathize with him because of his Bijuu issues and the fact that he grabbed the first opportunity of changing his ways that was presented to him. Basically the opposite of what Sasuke did, since he kept refusing those and shitting on/trying to murder anyone who was trying to help him. 

I don't sympathize with Sasuke and feel he deserves the punishment because of that. But he won't get any, as it seems.



BlinkST said:


> To say Sasuke must be "punished", while Konoha walks away scot-free for what happened in the past, is nothing but hypocrisy


No, it isn't. An entire village shouldn't pay for what its leaders did behind the scenes, which was exactly what Sasuke was planning to do.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> He kidnapped Bee because Obito was going to help him get his revenge on the the leaf village when he thought they didn't give two shits about his clan.



That only affirms Sasuke's culpability in that specific act. So what if he didn't know about the plan? It doesn't excuse him from his wrongdoing. 



> Since when did they agree to protect Danzo?



Kage Summit Arc? Danzo as interim Hokage? Samurai protecting the Kage so they can conduct their meeting in safety? Don't tell me you've forgotten. 



> Last I checked, before Sasuke was even notified of being there he was manipulating the hell out of shit until Ao pointed out he was fucking with all of them.



Yes, Danzo is evil. We established this.



> Last I checked the samurai attacked him first and he didn't make it clear that he was going to kill them.



That's like faulting a cop for trying to apprehend a perp. 



> Okay, now you're being hypocritical. First you were turning the other cheek to Tobirama's actions and now you're saying  "Edo Tensei" is an abomination. Who created Edo Tensei?



Except I never turned a cheek to Tobirama's actions. See, had you been reading to what you're trying to argue against, you might have noticed that I do hold Tobirama responsible for his own actions and decisions. Edo Tensei an abomination of which is his making. It's more than clear that Tobirama's lack of foresight created quite a few problems in the world and the Edo Tensei is one notable case of that. 



> Orochimaru was another person who went batshit due to the ninja system. He didn't just wake up one day and decide to be an evil bastard. Sasuke dissected his motives and it became clear he didn't do what he did to be a dick.  Also you're being incredibly morally myopic.



But he became an evil bastard, and all insight into his past does is help to identify those whom are more at risk at being a repeat, or identify what factors lead to it and how to prevent them. You know? What we do with criminals? It does nothing to excuse what Orochimaru has done. 

Try not to use words beyond your comprehension. 



> Actually me and blink are just being mocking of how holier than you you're being



Well it's hard not to be when you're excusing someone like Sasuke. 



> this is an example of hypocrisy you showed



Do you not know what hypocrisy means either? This is the second time I've seen you use it incorrectly. 



> And yet you're saying some things are NOT ENTIRELY HIS FAULT.



It's not. All sides have their role to play in this, and I never denied Tobirama's. 



> Even though Edo Tensei is one of the most abused jutsus in the Naruto world.



Gee, I couldn't tell.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Gaara has still killed people, same as Sasuke. And no matter how much you white wash it because of who it was done to it still can be called wrong.



White whasing? You're the one refuses to consider intent unless it suits your argument.

Two different character two different circumstance YET Gaara still had to face redemption through the harshest means death. He was killed of course ultimately brought back to life. 

Sasuke faces ZERO punishment the way some of his supporters are talking



BlinkST said:


> To say Sasuke must be "punished", while Konoha walks away scot-free for what happened in the past, is nothing but hypocrisy



Oh wait you mean like Danzo the guy who was killed?

Itachi the guy who was killed?

The rebellious Uchi who wanted to start a war for their own benefit and were killed? 

Who needs to be punished now? The entire village of people who had nothing to do with the aforementioned shenanigans?

Oh I know Hitle--- I mean Tobirama who as far as we've seen on screen Sasuke has made more attempts at killing people who didn't even have a beef with him.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

I'm sleepy. I'm handing the argument handling to Jeanne. 

Night


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Yeah and imprisoning Sasuke would only prove the bias of the leaf even though sasuke did a load of help for their asses.
> 
> 1. Canceling the mass Edo Tensei with Itachi's help
> 2. Taking out Danzo's selfish obstructive political ass self
> ...


Doesn't cancel out attacking for foreign Kages. Doesn't cancel out killing Danzo, who, at that point was a person who was the leader of the village appointed by the Daimyo. 

You're really acting like Sasuke shouldn't be punished, that he's a victim, that no one would blame him.


> I see I'm going to guide you as I am Seto. Look at the story Obito told to Sasuke, Itachi had to threaten Danzo not to lay a hand on Sasuke. His orders were to kill all the Uchiha. SASUKE INCLUDED.


And as Itachi revealed, Sasuke wasn't on the chopping block. Danzo said if Itachi put down his rabid clan, Sasuke would be spared. 

Sasuke was untouched by Danzo for _five full years_, and untouched even longer after. It was only AFTER he betrayed the village, Danzo put Sasuke on the chopping block. 

Seriously, stop acting like Sasuke never made his own choices and putting everythign at Danzo's feet.



> Shodaime, Orochimaru and everyone could see that their actions lead to the Uchiha being lead into extinction. Tobirama's actions especially lead them to be conceited but also to their realization they were kept out of important decisions.


Hashirama is a naive idiot who thought Madara was Hokage material. Orochimaru is a slimy, treacherous snake who puts everything in the worst light to put Tobirama on the spot.

Tobirama even said he didn't hate the Uchiha. Its just...*the Uchiha kept getting on his radar for doing bad things.* There is no actual discrimination.







> And Sasuke helping Itachi cancel Edo Tensei isn't? Look at the post Cordelia quoted "The Tsuchikage even said the person who canceled it should be given a medal". That's helping on a large scale.


Sasuke helping Itachi was for his OWN benefit for answers, not for the world. He didn't give two shits about it. 


> Naruto's ambition to become hokage has been from the start so he'll receive acknowledgement .  Plus, Naruto knows nothing of the history of Konoha. He's a hero, not a leader.


For someone who isnt' a leader, he's done a bang up job leading the shinobi world to the point where they could survive till the hokage's arrival.


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## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> White whasing? You're the one refuses to consider intent unless it suits your argument.
> 
> Two different character two different circumstance YET Gaara still had to face redemption through the harshest means death. He was killed of course ultimately brought back to life.



LOL at your logic. So then if Sasuke dies and is resurrected he'll be redeemed and fine and dandy and everybody will shut the fuck up? 

Yeah, didn't think so.

You know I'd respect you all a lot more if you'd just come out and say "I don't like Sasuke" and therefore "I want him to pay/be punished" instead of trying to dress things up to make your pure dislike seem like a viable argument. Let's call a spade a spade.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> And here comes the tired argument that Sasuke needs to be punished and tortured and executed and blah blah blah. Its a manga people. Pein destroyed an entire village and killed hundreds in the process and then they were all resurrected in one fell swoop. Gaara was a bloodlusting, sadistic, psychotic killer and became Kazekage. Kakashi killed Rin, etc etc. Fuck it was even implied that Zabuza, a cold-blooded murder received salvation in the end. These people have all done horrible things but have been pardoned/forgiven/saved what have you. It's fiction. Real world rules don't really apply, they never have.



Pain died. Zabuza died. They aren't being excused for what they did. What's more is that Rin committed suicide. All weak, overused attempts of deflection. 



> And assuming they did, these people would all have to face some sort of judgement as well. But of course the naruto fans don't clamor and moan and gnash their teeth for those other shinobi to face corporeal punishment. But Sasuke, oh Sasuke; he's different.



This is just moronic false dichotomies. You think it's an either or matter where it's simply more of Naruto vs. Sasuke, it's not. This is simply about Sasuke's culpability, so I find it ridiculous and stupid, how you guys can't help but try to bring up all these other characters, under some assumption on how their actions are viewed by those condemning Sasuke. All it shows is that you're incapable of defending Sasuke on his own "merits". 



> I'm not saying that Sasuke deserves to get off scot free necessarily, but I am questioning why we are holding him to a different standard than anyone else in the Shinobi world who has betrayed, killed, murdered or lied.



We aren't, and that is the point you miss. 



Bender said:


> And still the village had not at all made any serious attempts at negotiating with them.



One, the village as a whole is oblivious to this entire matter.

Second, Sarutobi did try to negotiate but they broke down.

Third, Shisui resolved that he would manipulate them himself to end it and then Danzo stole his eye putting an end to that idea. 



> The stupid give them special accommodations is pathetic. The line of hokages wasn't diverse nor anything. Also like Madara's prophetic words they became subjugated (although yes it was his fault) and there were groups dedicated to Madara's ideals.



It was the fault of the council to continue, and exacerbate Tobirama's policies, and it was also the fault of the clan to decide to take violence against the village. It would have only resulted in their destruction either way. Violence wasn't the solution at all. 



> And yet you're leaving out how Sasuke didn't kill Naruto and yet 2 years later he betrayed Orochimaru. Even though it seemed like to Naruto that he was going to help Orochimaru destroy the leaf village.



Sasuke didn't kill Naruto out of a last-minute decision or because Naruto himself managed to avoid being so. You seem to have this messed up idea that it's ok so long as he didn't succeed in killing Naruto failing to understand that intent is the big thing behind his actions. A lack of success does not change intent. 

He betrayed Orochimaru for his own self-interests and nothing more. 



> And still it doesn't change the fact that Tobirama really did Danzo wrong.
> 
> He screwed over Sai
> 
> ...



Tobirama was the student of both Sarutobi and Danzo, and had influence on them. One of them turned out bad, and their actions and decisions are ultimately their own. Danzo allowed his jealousy and resentment of Sarutobi to twist and darken his personality, which led to him ultimately becoming the evil individual that was introduced in the story. 



> He would've killed Sasuke if Itachi didn't keep threatening him.



Itachi and Sarutobi both were protecting Sasuke, and what is more is that Sarutobi assigned Sasuke to Kakashi's team so he could be protected on top of that. 



> And yet the rest of the entry goes on to talk about the Uchiha. You're stopping abruptly in your reading.



The only required entry was the explanation of what it is. An ideal. Which again asserts my point that "curse" is metaphorical. "burden", "lineage" these all would fit as well because the idea behind it is the same: It is a matter of such attitudes being passed down through the generations and resulting in tragedy for those that accept it.


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## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> oh, so since they are not the same character, they should be judged in different ways by the law of the ninja world, or one is allowed to be redeemed and the other not?





Not only can you not distinguish between two characters who faced different circumstances and matters of choice. (Lucid choice)

Again you ignore that even based on the narrative Gaara had to die (freely giving his life for the greater good) to even start his path to true redemption.

People don't even just want Sasuke to be pardoned and skate imprisonment  (though precedent for crimes shows Karin and Kisame were on the verge of being imprisoned, and Mizuki was captured for betraying his village) Death (though practically every serious bad guy has been killed and Gaara was revived) they want him to actually be considered the Hokage title like nothing happened.

Talking about Sasuke helping saving the world as if he wants to do that for the world's sake. 

It's crazy talk


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## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> LOL at your logic. So then if Sasuke dies and is resurrected he'll be redeemed and fine and dandy and everybody will shut the fuck up?



Let me slow down for you

People here are saying Gaara skated so Sauske should skate. 

I'm saying Gaara didn't skate he was killed for his redemption

That's the logic. Gaara even though he's a different character with different circumstances  *so the argument was moot beforehand *STILL didn't get away from the narrative without a spot on his suit because of the bad things he's done

Look at the Sasuke supporters they don't think Sasuke has done bad shit warranting any punishment at all. Yet they want to compare him with Gaara who by their arguments has done bad shit and thusly I've show at the very least Gaara was killed.

Sasuke has yet to do anything remotely redeeming yet even close to giving his life for the sake of others yet people are saying he should skate.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> And here comes the tired argument that Sasuke needs to be punished and tortured and executed and blah blah blah. Its a manga people.


Karin was still imprisoned for helping Sasuke attack the Kage Summit, Sieves. No one is saying tortured or executed, but he HAS to be held accountable. He has time to serve.


> Pein destroyed an entire village and killed hundreds in the process and then they were all resurrected in one fell swoop.


Nagato sacrificed himself to undo the mistake of attacking Konoha.


> Gaara was a bloodlusting, sadistic, psychotic killer and became Kazekage.


Did you miss all the character development, Gaara getting Shukaku mostly under control, and the fact *he had to EARN the Sand's forgiveness* before he became Kazekage? Something Sasuke is unwilling to do in Konoha?


> Kakashi killed Rin, etc etc.


Rin sacrificed her life to stop herself from being a walking time bomb. How is that a crime?


> Fuck it was even implied that Zabuza, a cold-blooded murder received salvation in the end. These people have all done horrible things but have been pardoned/forgiven/saved what have you. It's fiction. Real world rules don't really apply, they never have.


You realized Nagato killed himself, Zabuza killed himself, Gaara had to earn forgiveness and acceptance after going through a lot of character development, and Kakashi killing Rin isn't a crime since she sacrificed herself, right?



> And assuming they did, these people would all have to face some sort of judgement as well. But of course the naruto fans don't clamor and moan and gnash their teeth for those other shinobi to face corporeal punishment. But Sasuke, oh Sasuke; he's different.
> 
> I'm not saying that Sasuke deserves to get off scot free necessarily, but I am questioning why we are holding him to a different standard than anyone else in the Shinobi world who has betrayed, killed, murdered or lied.


Most of the people you named off died for their redemption, had actual character development, or wasn't a crime at all, saying Sasuke shouldn't be punished means you do want him to get off scott free.


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## Tony Lou (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> First of all Gaara and Sauske are not the same character but that's beyond your realm of understanding it seems.
> 
> But I find the attempt at fighting to become "Hokage" not to necessarily save the world for the world's sake but really just to have his way is being compared to giving up your life highly amusing.



Assuming you don't generally skip Sasuke's panels, I'm sure you do realize that he doesn't want the title of hokage for the sake of building monuments as tribute to the Uchiha.

He wants to change the village and fix the flaws that resulted into the clan's massacre.

As for forgiveness, Gaara did terrible things in Part 1 and yet he wasn't sent to the chopping block. There is no reason why it should be any different with Sasuke.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

The argument is absolutely moronic. Sasuke ultimately had nothing but his own lack of inhibition that drove him to commit his misdeeds. It was all a product of his own nature at the end of the day. What makes it even worse is that Sasuke knew he had choices and knew what they could result in, he just never cared enough about them to stay his hand.


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## Moeka (May 24, 2013)

Because maybe just maybe if he didn't became the good guy, more causalities would have happened.


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## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Luiz said:


> Assuming you don't generally skip Sasuke's panels, I'm sure you do realize that he doesn't want the title of hokage for the sake of building monuments as tribute to the Uchiha.



I suppose you missed the parallels with Madara

And I suppose you missed why he and Naruto's ideals will clash like Hash and Madara's did when they fight for the village lead.


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## Tony Lou (May 24, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> I'm saying Gaara didn't skate he was killed for his redemption.



Wrong. Gaara was redeemed back in Part 1.

His death only contributed to bringing him and his village closer.



CandleGuy said:


> I suppose you missed the parallels with Madara
> 
> And I suppose you missed why he and Naruto's ideals will clash like Hash and Madara's did when they fight for the village lead.



Parallels hardly mean a character is a carbon copy of another.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Moeka said:


> Because maybe just maybe if he didn't became the good guy, more causalities would have happened.



Hey, we captured this terrorist that we managed to tell us of a planned attack.

Welp, I guess he's free to go!


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## Frostman (May 24, 2013)

A lot of his crimes can be written off as him being a spy working for Konoha (Orochimaru, Akatsuki). Taking out some villains in the process (Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi) will help in his trial. If Konoha chooses to protect him then the only thing he would have to face is what he did to Bee and what he did at the kage summit. Bee would easily forgive him, and he can just as easily pressure Raikage into asking only for minor compensation. As for the Kage summit; nowhere does it say that those samurai died . So again, minor compensation and everything is forgiven. 

This is what i can't stand, and i noticed it a long time ago. Sasuke didn't create any real grudges in his rampage. Kishimotto conveniently cleared everything up for him in his wake. Its the same for Naruto. He never had to make any real sacrifices to get what he wants. And if Sasuke really is returning, Naruto didn't do anything. I was expecting a life lesson at the end of this. Something you can relate to real life. But Itachi coming back to life, explaining everything, clearing everything up, and making everything better ruined it. Its like cheating. The pain about death is that you will never be able to talk to them again.

One thing im hoping for is, him killing Danzou comes back to haunt him. Danzou may have been a jerk, but his subordinates, especially Sai seemed to respect him.

Also in court, the truth doesn't matter. Its what you can prove that matters the most. If certain personals don't talk, then he can't be punished for it.


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## Moeka (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Hey, we captured this terrorist that we managed to tell us of a planned attack.
> 
> Welp, I guess he's free to go!


i didn't say it was a right judgement, just what I think will be an excuse in this story don't worry!!! =]


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## Csdabest (May 24, 2013)

before entering Naruto again.


Punishment for Kumo?

before entering Naruto again.

This is how the shinobi world works. Oh You tried to kidnap one of our noble clan members to get ahold of Jutsu. Bickering then talks of war. Then Konoha has to kill off one of their own for something Kumo started.

Like I said. There is no punishment. Just acts happened or are looked over to stop a war from happening


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## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Pain died. Zabuza died. They aren't being excused for what they did. What's more is that Rin committed suicide. All weak, overused attempts of deflection.


please, you cry deflection for any argument you don't want to accept as valid. 

They died... your point? Nobody ever said they had to die to be forgiven or achieve exoneration. It happened to play out that way due to the circumstances, yes. But redemption does not always equal death and the fact that you and many others seem to be implying this is ridiculous. Sasuke does not have to die to be redeemed. 





> This is just moronic false dichotomies. You think it's an either or matter where it's simply more of Naruto vs. Sasuke, it's not. This is simply about Sasuke's culpability, so I find it ridiculous and stupid, how you guys can't help but try to bring up all these other characters, under some assumption on how their actions are viewed by those condemning Sasuke. All it shows is that you're incapable of defending Sasuke on his own "merits".



I don't think it's a matter of Naruto vs Sasuke. You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm merely questioning why we clamor for Sasuke's punishment so emphatically and ignore the fact that there have been ninjas who have in fact, not been punished. In fact, why are there not tons of "Orochimaru should receive punishment for his crimes" threads? I'm calling you all on your bull. 

I'm not incapable of defending Sasuke's merits. But that's not what were discussing. I'm not trying to use Sasuke's  " "merits" " as you so cutely call them to justify him not being punished for his crimes. The whole premise of this thread is a loaded question. Who said Sasuke shouldn't be culpable for his crimes? I never said that. You all just want to argue to tear Sasuke's character to shreds and have people "defend Sasuke's merits"


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## Csdabest (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> LOL at your logic. So then if Sasuke dies and is resurrected he'll be redeemed and fine and dandy and everybody will shut the fuck up?
> 
> Yeah, didn't think so.
> 
> You know I'd respect you all a lot more if you'd just come out and say "I don't like Sasuke" and therefore "I want him to pay/be punished" instead of trying to dress things up to make your pure dislike seem like a viable argument. Let's call a spade a spade.



This. Their is a bias that wants sasuke to die. Its clear that Sasuke did some bad things. But the shinobi world and individuals who are currently in power or in positions of high esteem or have been have done some horrible acts as well.

Shinobi are ment to endure. Therefore they should be able to endure Sasuke freedom. Especially since if it wasnt for Sasuke they wouldnt have a chance to endure either way. If Sasuke wasnt alive and didnt exist or partake this war would have stilled happened. Kirabi most likely would have still have been captured.(Kisame beat Bee)  this war would have stll happened. But you know what wouldnt of happened if Sasuke wasnt alive. Naruto wouldnt be alive right now. He would have been killed by the bijuudama hence all hope lost for the alliance.

Sasuke aint dying for no crimes he commited


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> please, you cry deflection for any argument you don't want to accept as valid.



No, I call it as it is. You try to drag other characters in on this flawed assumption that their actions were excused and Sasuke's weren't. It's nonsensical. 



> They died... your point?



They paid for their crimes, and it was too late for a 'second chance' at life for them.



> Nobody ever said they had to die to be forgiven or achieve exoneration. It happened to play out that way due to the circumstances, yes.



No one excused what they did and I don't think anyone had any real expectation that they would go living on much longer than the time their backstories and motives were revealed. 



> But redemption does not always equal death and the fact that you and many others seem to be implying this is ridiculous. Sasuke does not have to die to be redeemed.



Redemption through death is often the only feasible way to a certain point which Sasuke has already reached. No, it wasn't always the case, but as he  continued to get worse it's moreso. If I were to be real however, nothing will undo what he has done and giving his life for everyone's sake would be the most objectively definable example of his change. 



> I don't think it's a matter of Naruto vs Sasuke. You're putting words in my mouth.



You whined about Naruto fans and their attitudes toward Sasuke. 



> I'm merely questioning why we clamor for Sasuke's punishment so emphatically and ignore the fact that there have been ninjas who have in fact, not been punished. In fact, why are there not tons of "Orochimaru should receive punishment for his crimes" threads? I'm calling you all on your bull.



We don't, a point like I stated you miss. If you wanna talk about Orochimaru then feel free to do so. This what I mean by 'deflection'. This is the textbook example of such right here. 

This also goes to my point about these ridiculous dichotomies you have formed in your mind. Because one condemns Sasuke does not say anything on their thoughts on any other matter. All you're doing with these accusations and dragging in other characters is showing a weakness in your own arguments. 



> I'm not incapable of defending Sasuke's merits. But that's not what were discussing. I'm not trying to use Sasuke's  " "merits" " as you so cutely call them to justify him not being punished for his crimes. The whole premise of this thread is a loaded question.



I don't see how it is. Plenty try to deny Sasuke's responsibility for his own deeds.



> Who said Sasuke shouldn't be culpable for his crimes?



*Plenty.* Hell, some argue he didn't even do anything wrong. 



> I never said that. You all just want to argue to tear Sasuke's character to shreds and have people "defend Sasuke's merits"



Oh, the victim card. I was waiting for that...Sasuke's character, like his comrades on Team 7 is already in shreds. I don't need to argue that.


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## Cord (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Remind me when Sasuke has a demon that literally screws with his mind.



He doesn't need a demon to screw his mind. He already had a brother to do that for him.



Seto Kaiba said:


> This discussion is a little disturbing because people are speaking from their own sense of culpability and criminality. . .



 You mean *our* own sense of culpability and criminality.



Seto Kaiba said:


> One, most ninjas don't kill wantonly and on whims like Sasuke do. There does exist a concept of murder in this universe that was made clear Sasuke and those like him have violated.
> 
> Second, most ninjas don't kill as an active part of their profession. Ninjas are a defense force first and foremost, and only a very select few actively engage in assassination. The most time a ninja will face mortal combat is during wartime, or apprehending dangerous criminals like Sasuke.



I haven't received the answer that I've been looking for. Apart from Danzo, there haven't been anyone else that he killed just because he felt like it, as you are implying with your words: "wantonly" and "on whims". In Danzo's case, he had the plan to and for a reason. 

The second isn't completely accurate. Ninjas engage in missions where mortal combats are most of the time, guaranteed. Usually on A or S class types of missions. Although it's more prominent among contending nations. 

And I'm not even sure if killing is unlawful in the Chunin exams considering they only wanted to prevent it rather than completely restricting it. Not even willing to bring up the issue regarding the exams in the Hidden Mist.



> He invaded the Iron Country, he was the hostile force in that confrontation. He was going to attempt to kill the Kage to get to Danzo on top of that.



I believe Sasuke's statement on wanting to kill the Kages was just a mistranslation. He went there to kill Danzo and him alone. I'll dig on that later.



> Only because he has decided to do so. They still obviously have not forgotten what he has done, and his reform doesn't undo his wrongdoings.



And what is wrong in deciding to do so? They still haven't forgotten what he has done, true. But these are the people in a voice that know nothing of his real story, mostly involving Itachi and his encounter with the Hokages.

I already told you that his wrong doings might not be undone, rather *made up for*. And that's what's important.



> Criminals can reform, but reformation does not mean they don't answer for their crimes.



I want to ask you, in a ninja world's perspective, what would be the most appropriate sanction for someone like Sasuke?



> He had his circumstances and his struggles, but they only explain why he went in particular ways and did certain things, but it doesn't make them justified.



I never proposed that his position as being a victim should justify his actions. Let me be clear on that if I haven't, sorry. His actions, while not justifiable, are still understandable to a certain extent. 

From what I understood in your statement, is that since nearly everyone are involved in the same system as he does, means he should've done the same as those who are in the "right" path. And that's what I addressed, for he has a different story of his own.



> He also lost it amidst growing insecurity over Naruto's growth, when he first tried to kill him. It's partially because of his own failure to heed the advice of Kakashi, and listen to the pleas of his comrades that allowed himself to fall as low as he did.



He was _losing_ it amid his growing insecurity over Naruto's growth and his "attempt to kill him" (if you're talking about their rooftop fight) is not a legitimate act of evil, rather just an impulse seeing as it also involved Naruto charging his Rasengan towards him- which all happened after his last encounter with Itachi where Sasuke's morale was in its lowest.

Him, opting to not kill Naruto in their VotE fight signifies that never did he once genuinely wanted to kill him until part 2. Kakashi's advice was sinking into him and he needed time to think everything over. Everyone does. Unfortunately, that time wasn't given to him due to the intrusion of Sound four.



> Maybe not the best, but better.



That's really cute and calling other people's arguments "dumb" and "moronic" certainly makes it even better. Though, I'm no longer seeing the point in debating this any further. So I'll just agree to disagree right here.


----------



## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Karin was still imprisoned for helping Sasuke attack the Kage Summit, Sieves. No one is saying tortured or executed, but he HAS to be held accountable. He has time to serve.



Okay I don't know what the hell the other Staunch Sasuke Fans have been arguing about, but I never said Sasuke is not accountable. Or that he shouldn't serve time. Or that he shouldn't get away scot free. Or that he should skate. Or whatever terminology you want to use. 



> Did you miss all the character development, Gaara getting Shukaku mostly under control, and the fact *he had to EARN the Sand's forgiveness* before he became Kazekage? Something Sasuke is unwilling to do in Konoha?



Actually that was the beginning of part 2 so i'm a bit fuzzy. But let's not pretend like Sasuke hasn't been undergoing development towards "redemption" for awhile. 

For all we know Sasuke doesn't even care about redemption anyways. If so, no, he shouldn't become the hokage because he doesn't care about receiving forgiveness from the people he would be leading in konoha. But I don't believe he doesn't care about that.

Um. Sasuke hasn't had a chance to earn forgiveness yet. The story is not over. I'll admit it seems somewhat ehh for Sasuke to come in and claim "I'll be hokage" after what he's done... but this is Kishi and his pacing is shit. We all know that. Hopefully it will make more sense/be clarified soon. 




> You realized Nagato killed himself, Zabuza killed himself, Gaara had to earn forgiveness and acceptance after going through a lot of character development, and Kakashi killing Rin isn't a crime since she sacrificed herself, right?



Yep, I realize that. But I never said Sasuke doesn't need to do any of those things. So...




> Most of the people you named off died for their redemption, had actual character development, or wasn't a crime at all, saying Sasuke shouldn't be punished means you do want him to get off scott free.



And again. My point is proven. Never said. Sasuke. Shouldn't. Be. Punished.



CandleGuy said:


> Let me slow down for you
> 
> People here are saying Gaara skated so Sauske should skate.
> 
> ...



Well then, those other people should stop rising to the bait, shouldn't they.


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 24, 2013)

You want to see Sasuke punished so badly
Kishimoto is writing the manga, and this is a shounen. 

Sasuke helped Itachi End Edo Tensei.
Hashirama and the other Hokages will vouch for Sasuke.
lol Danzo was a crook who bullied an Orphanage, and he tried to Koto Genjutsu his way to controlling the entire Shinobi alliance, starting from the Kage Summit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> Okay I don't know what the hell the other Staunch Sasuke Fans have been arguing about, but I never said Sasuke is not accountable. Or that he shouldn't serve time. Or that he shouldn't get away scot free. Or that he should skate. Or whatever terminology you want to use.


Bender has been arguing Sasuke did nothing wrong. Several other people in this thread and others too.




> Actually that was the beginning of part 2 so i'm a bit fuzzy. But let's not pretend like Sasuke hasn't been undergoing development towards "redemption" for awhile.


Check it out.


> For all we know Sasuke doesn't even care about redemption anyways. If so, no, he shouldn't become the hokage because he doesn't care about receiving forgiveness from the people he would be leading in konoha. But I don't believe he doesn't care about that.


...Sasuke blatantly said he didn't care what other people think, and asserted he wanted to become Hokage.


> Um. Sasuke hasn't had a chance to earn forgiveness yet. The story is not over. I'll admit it seems somewhat ehh for Sasuke to come in and claim "I'll be hokage" after what he's done... but this is Kishi and his pacing is shit. We all know that. Hopefully it will make more sense/be clarified soon.


Alright, fair enough.





> Yep, I realize that. But I never said Sasuke doesn't need to do any of those things. So...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No, I call it as it is. You try to drag other characters in on this flawed assumption that their actions were excused and Sasuke's weren't. It's nonsensical.


Nope never said that their actions were excused. I said they did horrible things as well-- that many shinobi do horrible things-- and that they were able to find redemption, so why can't Sasuke?





> Redemption through death is often the only feasible way to a certain point which Sasuke has already reached. No, it wasn't always the case, but as he  continued to get worse it's moreso. If I were to be real however, nothing will undo what he has done and giving his life for everyone's sake would be the most objectively definable example of his change.



And who determines this point of no return? Are you the judge for what his fate should be based on some arbitrary line that has been crossed? 

You can say I believe Sasuke deserves to die. You cannot say Sasuke deserves to die.
Nobody has the right to say that. 





> You whined about Naruto fans and their attitudes toward Sasuke.


Your projecting. It burns. "whining"? Really? Are you sure you don't just already have preconceived notions about anyone who defends Sasuke?
Lol the drawbacks of having the manga named after the main character. You misunderstand. I meant fans of the Naruto manga.





> We don't, a point like I stated you miss. If you wanna talk about Orochimaru then feel free to do so. This what I mean by 'deflection'. This is the textbook example of such right here.


Nope that is my exactly. 



> This also goes to my point about these ridiculous dichotomies you have formed in your mind. Because one condemns Sasuke does not say anything on their thoughts on any other matter. All you're doing with these accusations and dragging in other characters is showing a weakness in your own arguments.


..... are you not all speaking your thoughts here? 
You can't "condemn" Sasuke objectively. You're not objective. Anything you say is your subjective opinion on the matter.




> Oh, the victim card. I was waiting for that...Sasuke's character, like his comrades on Team 7 is already in shreds. I don't need to argue that.


 Not really a victim card, son. Just stating the truth. Don't pretend like it isn't true.

Hmmm well I think everything after part I is stupid anyway, so I'd have to agree with you there.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> He doesn't need a demon to screw his mind. He already had a brother to do that for him.



His brother was a bad influence, but his brother wasn't consuming his humanity, nor was he an active, physically present, internal, obtrusive influence. 



> You mean *our* own sense of culpability and criminality.



No. Because it is in no way in line with any sense of it in modern society. 



> I haven't received the answer that I've been looking for. Apart from Danzo, there haven't been anyone else that he killed just because he felt like it, as you are implying with your words: "wantonly" and "on whims". In Danzo's case, he had the plan to and for a reason.



This is part of my previous point. Where attempted murder suddenly stops being a crime.

He killed the samurai because he wanted to, it was simply because he was angry and frustrated did he kill them but he has the full capability to disable them through non-fatal means.

Sakura and Karin, as well as Naruto would have died as a result of his tantrums, bloodlust, or simple whims. 



> The second isn't completely accurate. Ninjas engage in missions where mortal combats are most of the time, guaranteed. Usually on A or S class types of missions. Although it's more prominent among contending nations.



Rarely. This was an issue brought up numerous times, in that the smaller villages suffered exactly because they were dependent on wartime and conflict to fund their villages. The larger villages in contrast were able to cushion the costs because they can and often do take missions in peacetime that don't deal with war or conflict. Ninjas in the general sense are more like soldiers, a defense force; with the extreme minority engaged what is typically known of ninjas, assassination. The most a ninja will see conflict is like I stated in those rare situations where mortal combat is necessary, and B-S class missions are extremely rare because again, peacetime, or during war. 



> And I'm not even sure if killing is unlawful in the Chunin exams considering they only wanted to prevent it rather than completely restricting it. Not even willing to bring up the issue regarding the exams in the Hidden Mist.



The Chunin Exams they had to sign an agreement that they were putting themselves at risk, and warned that they are going to face situations that could prove fatal if they weren't prepared. 

The mist's requirements were completely brutal and savage, and I don't recall any disputing of that. They were considered outliers after all because of their propensity for violence. 



> I believe Sasuke's statement on wanting to kill the Kages was just a mistranslation. He went there to kill Danzo and him alone. I'll dig on that later.



That does not change that he tried to kill everyone, even a comrade to get what he wanted at the time. 



> And what is wrong in deciding to do so? They still haven't forgotten what he has done, true. But these are the people in a voice that know nothing of his real story, mostly involving Itachi and his encounter with the Hokages.



Enlightenment of this backstory or not does not change the nature of Sasuke's own deeds nor does it excuse them. 



> I already told you that his wrong doings might not be undone, rather *made up for*. And that's what's important.



The thing is you can never really take back your wrongdoings. Which goes to a point I made that criminals can reform, but still have to answer for their crimes. 



> I want to ask you, in a ninja world's perspective, what would be the most appropriate sanction for someone like Sasuke?



He should have been imprisoned when he was still weak enough to be captured, and failing that, taking him down. Letting him run loose wouldn't be a wise idea, and Naruto will be ready to excuse anything Sasuke does.



> I never proposed that his position as being a victim should justify his actions. Let me be clear on that if I haven't, sorry. His actions, while not justifiable, are still understandable to a certain extent.



Yeah, but understanding why he does something only offers that. Which is why it makes no difference if the rookies know his backstory or not. It does not change the nature of his deeds, it only explains the why, if any, behind them.



> From what I understood in your statement, is that since nearly everyone are involved in the same system as he does, means he should've done the same as those who are in the "right" path. And that's what I addressed, for he has a different story of his own.



I mean that, his suffering does not give him a pass or entitlement or logically shouldn't, as other people suffer and face adversity all the same. 



> He was _losing_ it amid his growing insecurity over Naruto's growth and his "attempt to kill him" (if you're talking about their rooftop fight) is not a legitimate act of evil, rather just an impulse seeing as it also involved Naruto charging his Rasengan towards him-



It is the first act to his descent, and it was an act of hostility that Naruto responded to. Sasuke intended for mortal combat when it was clear Naruto wanted to fight him as a rival.



> which all happened after his last encounter with Itachi where Sasuke's morale was in its lowest.



Itachi is, and played demon for half of Sasuke's life; he is a negative influence and his own screw-ups did not help matters at all. However, he did not MAKE Sasuke do anything. It was ultimately up to Sasuke's own choice, and Sasuke has shown that when he really wishes to, he can defy a person's wishes.



> Him, opting to not kill Naruto in their VotE fight signifies that never did he once genuinely wanted to kill him until part 2. Kakashi's advice was sinking into him and he needed time to think everything over. Everyone does. Unfortunately, that time wasn't given to him due to the intrusion of Sound four.



He had time.


----------



## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Bender has been arguing Sasuke did nothing wrong. Several other people in this thread and others too.


Well I think the thing is Sasuke-fans get defensive because the way you talk about his crimes are as if hes the next Hitler or something. Relative to the world Sasuke lives in, he's not the only one who has done wrong. Not that you ever said that, but you know, people make assumptions. Also people are probably arguing that as it pertains to Konoha Sasuke has not really "done anything" to them. His means to an end ultimately did not harm Konoha. As in, the things he did "helped" them in some ways and didn't "hurt" them. He doesn't need to say sorry for smashing a vase because he in fact did not smash a vase. That sort of thing. I mean that's all debatable but that's what I've seen people argue before. 



> ...Sasuke blatantly said he didn't care what other people think, and asserted he wanted to become Hokage.


Yeah he did say that... I took it as he didn't care what others thought about his decision to aim for hokage... not he didn't care what others thought period. But, I dunno. I hope he didn't mean that...[/QUOTE]


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> Nope never said that their actions were excused. I said they did horrible things as well-- that many shinobi do horrible things-- and that they were able to find redemption, so why can't Sasuke?



They died. So yes, if he dies he can too I suppose. At least, it would be the most clear method of his change.



> And who determines this point of no return? Are you the judge for what his fate should be based on some arbitrary line that has been crossed?



The line is hardly arbitrary. The line is where he began to try to take people's lives. It's not my judgment, it's simply derived from our own sense of self-preservation and preservation of stability. A killer obviously compromises both.



> You can say I believe Sasuke deserves to die. You cannot say Sasuke deserves to die. Nobody has the right to say that.



What right does he have to live? He violated its most basic standards. At the very least, he has no right to live peacefully and freely. 



> Your projecting. It burns. "whining"? Really? Are you sure you don't just already have preconceived notions about anyone who defends Sasuke?



No, it's always an active judgment. 



> Lol the drawbacks of having the manga named after the main character. You misunderstand. I meant fans of the Naruto manga.



Then wouldn't simply "fans" be appropriate? 



> Nope that is my exactly.



No. You went "WELL I DON'T SEE YOU SAYING THIS ABOUT THAT CHARACTER!" 

That is not an argument, it's deflecting from the issue. 



> ..... are you not all speaking your thoughts here?
> You can't "condemn" Sasuke objectively. You're not objective. Anything you say is your subjective opinion on the matter.



Well look at you avoiding the argument, so here it is again:

This also goes to my point about these ridiculous dichotomies you have formed in your mind. Because one condemns Sasuke does not say anything on their thoughts on any other matter. All you're doing with these accusations and dragging in other characters is showing a weakness in your own arguments. 



> Not really a victim card, son. Just stating the truth. Don't pretend like it isn't true.



It isn't, it's simple victimization.


----------



## Frostman (May 24, 2013)

Common murder ain't that big of a deal. Its the first thing they teach you in the academy.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Frostman said:


> Common murder ain't that big of a deal. Its the first thing they teach you in the academy.



Was that facetious?


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## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His brother was a bad influence, but his brother wasn't consuming his humanity, nor was he an active, physically present, internal, obtrusive influence.


Itachi was _*physically present*_ during the time he returned to Konoha.
Itachi was definitely the instigator and perpetrator of an _*internal*_ struggle Sasuke has had to deal with since he was 8.
Itachi's words _*actively*_ haunted Sasuke.




> Enlightenment of this backstory or not does not change the nature of Sasuke's own deeds nor does it excuse them. The thing is you can never really take back your wrongdoings. Which goes to a point I made that criminals can reform, but still have to answer for their crimes.



You can't but you can be forgiven for them and you certainly can atone for them. Atonement is a way of answering for crimes. But these people are in the middle of War. They can't just drop everything now- this has to play out before we can claim Sasuke isn't being punished for crimes.

Also, I'd caution you not to take any of this too seriously. Sasuke very well might not be punished for his crimes by virtue of the fact that the writer might not deem it productive to deliver some sort of justice to the central character. That's not to say it shouldn't happen but that something is preventing it from occurring. I mean, I'm not really betting on Kishi doing this right.  




> Yeah, but understanding why he does something only offers that. Which is why it makes no difference if the rookies know his backstory or not. It does not change the nature of his deeds, it only explains the why, if any, behind them.


It would make a difference because it would make his actions more understandable. Sympathy would play a role and suddenly Sasuke's actions would have a deeper meaning, thus making him easier to forgive and easier to acknowledge. 




> Itachi is, and played demon for half of Sasuke's life; he is a negative influence and his own screw-ups did not help matters at all. However, he did not MAKE Sasuke do anything. It was ultimately up to Sasuke's own choice, and Sasuke has shown that when he really wishes to, he can defy a person's wishes.



The interesting thing is that you treat Sasuke like a sentient being and seem to forget he is a character performing actions to serve a greater purpose, called plot. This doesn't really matter in the context of the discussion, but it is an observation.

Itachi did not make Sasuke do anything, true. He did however have a massive influence on the choice Sasuke made. The truth is that if Itachi hadn't done what he had done we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But he did and thus you can see how greatly his own actions affected Sasuke. You're right. One shouldn't discount the consequences of someone's actions. Don't discount the huge effect Itachi's actions had on Sasuke. He even said himself if he had trusted Sasuke, things probably would have turned out differently. Sasuke made choices yes, but his past had a huge baring on the decisions he made.


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## Jeαnne (May 24, 2013)

it never ends...


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> Itachi was _*physically present*_ during the time he returned to Konoha.
> Itachi was definitely the instigator and perpetrator of an _*internal*_ struggle Sasuke has had to deal with since he was 8.
> Itachi's words _*actively*_ haunted Sasuke.



Not as his own person, but as a result of the impressions he left behind through his actions.



> You can't but you can be forgiven for them and you certainly can atone for them. Atonement is a way of answering for crimes. But these people are in the middle of War. They can't just drop everything now- this has to play out before we can claim Sasuke isn't being punished for crimes.



He obviously won't be. 



> Also, I'd caution you not to take any of this too seriously. Sasuke very well might not be punished for his crimes by virtue of the fact that the writer might not deem it productive to deliver some sort of justice to the central character. That's not to say it shouldn't happen but that something is preventing it from occurring. I mean, I'm not really betting on Kishi doing this right.



He screwed up on it quite a while ago, so any future developments would only be compromised because of that.



> It would make a difference because it would make his actions more understandable. Sympathy would play a role and suddenly Sasuke's actions would have a deeper meaning, thus making him easier to forgive and easier to acknowledge.



Understanding why someone did something wrong, doesn't make it necessarily easier to forgive. On the contrary, it can serve to harden the resolve of those condemning the person of their misdeeds. On a beneficial level, having the foresight to see how and in whom, such attitudes can present themselves again.



> The interesting thing is that you treat Sasuke like a sentient being and seem to forget he is a character performing actions to serve a greater purpose, called plot. This doesn't really matter in the context of the discussion, but it is an observation.



I am arguing it from that perspective, and defiance is a part of Sasuke's character.



> Itachi did not make Sasuke do anything, true. He did however have a massive influence on the choice Sasuke made. The truth is that if Itachi hadn't done what he had done we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But he did and thus you can see how greatly his own actions affected Sasuke. You're right. One shouldn't discount the consequences of someone's actions. Don't discount the huge effect Itachi's actions had on Sasuke. He even said himself if he had trusted Sasuke, things probably would have turned out differently. Sasuke made choices yes, but his past had a huge baring on the decisions he made.



I do think Itachi deserves a lot of blame, because if he really was a good guy and had such wisdom as claimed, I'd think a basic think like mental torture would be a big "no". Part of why I still wish Itachi had just been a plain sociopath in the first place. At least his treatment of Sasuke would have made sense and been consistent, a monster seeking to "taint" his innocent brother so that he becomes one as well.

But now...everything he does is right, for some arbitrary reason, and it is causes so many hiccups in the story it's ridiculous.


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## Sieves (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The line is hardly arbitrary. The line is where he began to try to take people's lives. It's not my judgment, it's simply derived from our own sense of self-preservation and preservation of stability. A killer obviously compromises both.


Oh but it is. Is killing really the line? There's abuse. There's torture. There's sadism. There's hypocrisy. There's lying and stealing. There's bullying. Is killing someone with a sword really any worse than killing someone with your words? 

You're playing a philosophy game here, and believe me, there is no black and white with a precise line dividing things. 





> What right does he have to live? He violated its most basic standards. At the very least, he has no right to live peacefully and freely.


My point. Says you. That is fine if you want to believe that. But it's not really up to you to say definitively he has no right to live. As I stated above, there is no clear line.



> Then wouldn't simply "fans" be appropriate?


Fans would work but Naruto Fans works just as well.





> Well look at you avoiding the argument, so here it is again:


It doesn't really matter to me what other characters did or did not do. Sasuke may or may not receive punishment for his crimes. He should. Or atone for them.

Alas, I must go. This has been time-consuming enlightening. You've really got a fire lit under you, Seto Kaiba. You live up to your name.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Sieves said:


> Oh but it is. Is killing really the line? There's abuse. There's torture. There's sadism. There's hypocrisy. There's lying and stealing. There's bullying. Is killing someone with a sword really any worse than killing someone with your words?



You can prove responsibility in killing someone with a sword in contrast to your own words. Those are all crimes, and I never stated anything to the contrary. Only on the ones Sasuke has done. I don't need to embellish his wrongdoings...he's done enough.



> You're playing a philosophy game here, and believe me, there is no black and white with a precise line dividing things.



I think this one is a lot more simple than people try to present it as. 



> My point. Says you. That is fine if you want to believe that. But it's not really up to you to say definitively he has no right to live. As I stated above, there is no clear line.



By the standards of the very world he lives in, he should have died a long time ago; and regardless of that, he'd be a candidate for capital punishment considering his crimes in even free societies. So, maybe he doesn't deserve to die, but he doesn't deserve to live freely either. 



> Fans would work but Naruto Fans works just as well.



Perhaps.



> It doesn't really matter to me what other characters did or did not do. Sasuke may or may not receive punishment for his crimes. He should. Or atone for them.



He won't have to face anything though with Naruto around.


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## Charlotte (May 24, 2013)

He's not going to be killed of for what he did, or even be imprisoned for that matter.

The ninja nations will have very little reason to pursue him after that him bringing the 4 Hokages as reinforcements and helps to save the world. But, the people in Konaha will not be okay having him around or welcoming him back.


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## Jeαnne (May 24, 2013)

Oonoki even called him a hero already


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## Xin (May 24, 2013)

He kind of redeemed himself already by stopping edo tensei and I guess there is more to come, so that in the end, Sasuke will be a hero.


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## Yagami1211 (May 24, 2013)

Sasuke's crimes is that he was a missing nin.
He's as bad as Zabuza, Kisame etc ...


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## Suigetsu (May 24, 2013)

What crimes has he really done? Killing Danzou? Going batshit?
If amurder is done in the midst of blinded passion then its forgivable, but if it was planned murder then thats really a crime.
Deserting the village?
Forsaking his comrades? "Ok yeah that one is one but everyone seems to forgive him already, wtf no?"


Without his attack on Killerbee, the kages wouldnt have done shit.

The raikage is a butthurt jerk that needed sasukes actions to move.


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## Bored321 (May 24, 2013)

^ Having a hand in resurrecting Juubi is a big one.


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## Cord (May 24, 2013)

^ How so? He never successfully captured the Gyūki nor any other bijūs.


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## Bored321 (May 24, 2013)

^ He got a tentacle's/tail's worth of its chakra, which was successful towards recreating the Juubi.


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## arriku (May 24, 2013)

I think he should receive some form of punishment. Like community service.

But if I'm trying to answer OP's question, I'd say he shouldn't receive a punishment if he pulls a feat that earns him the respect and awe of his entire village - if we're going by the way Kishimoto likes to do things. Gaara becoming Kazekage despite being a bit on the sociopathic murdering side in his youth comes to mind.


Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.


EDIT: Just read that, very good point.


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## dungsi27 (May 24, 2013)

Sasukes criminal life has been a failure thus logically if his entire story is exposed to everyone then there shouldnt be any serious grude for him.
However the problem is that noone knows the entire story, and there is very little chance that in anyway Sasuke can tell others and make them believe in what he says.
And maybe people can forgive him and let him back into the village it is unacceptable that such an individual becomes the Hokage.
And who the hell knows that will happen to Konoha and the other village if Sasuke does become the Hokage. For all we know Sasuke may become somewhat just like Danzo


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## Orochibuto (May 24, 2013)

Kaiba, Sasuke will be pardoned on behalf of needs, this is how, or at least how it should if we use reason which would be way more reasonable than just letting him go "because Naruto says so".

In other words Madara and Juubi have the world at the verge of defeat, they win and its over, that's it. IF Sasuke proves to be a piece without whom the world could not had been saved, they will have to let him go, not because they really thought it was good, but because it was either that or nuked to obliteration. Granted it would be more believable if they make the upfront agreement, but I think its kinda like some unwritten deal.

If Sasuke really ends up beign something by which without the shadow of doubt Juubi/Madara/Obito cannot be defeated, then they can't just after the battle go and arrest him.

So is less of a he less of a "the world thinks he deserves no punishment" and more of a "he won't be punished because its either that, or face doom."

To give emphasis on the situation imagine that an unbeatable foe was unleashed in the US and was going to obliterate it, and could only be defeated Ranzi Yousef's help (the WTC attack architect). You either let him go, or the US is going to be nuked into obliteration. Does letting him go means that what he did was really forgiven and deserved to be let go? Maybe not, but you simply have no choice.


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## Cord (May 24, 2013)

Bored321 said:


> ^ He got a tentacle's/tail's worth of its chakra, which was successful towards recreating the Juubi.



The Jubi would've still been recreated regardless if it had a minimal chakra from the Hachibi. No? From my understanding, the creature could've still been revived whether or not, it had both the remaining Bijus' (Kyubi and Gyuki) chakra. Just a weaker version of it perhaps.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 24, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.
> 
> Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for. A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.
> 
> Sasuke might have betrayed his village, but if anything, the village and the ninja system were the ones that betrayed him first.



Good post.

I love how people argue points from a ignorant character in Naruto perspective opposed to an actual readers one.

So Sasuke's criminal actions was for naught?

I don't think his crimes against the shinobi world occurred for nothing.

How do people in their right mind question others forgiving Sasuke when Sasuke has recently forgiven Konoha. Something, until just recently, many thought was impossible.


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## Bored321 (May 24, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> The Jubi would've still been recreated regardless if it had a minimal chakra from the Hachibi. No? From my understanding, the creature could've still been revived whether or not, it had both the remaining Bijus' (Kyubi and Gyuki) chakra. Just a weaker version of it perhaps.



Mmhmm maybe, but then if it was a weaker version was created that brings into question whether it would still have the firepower to atomize Kumo and their HQ; or at the revelation that the Juubi isn't fully complete and Madara possibly having a change in his tactical approach.


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## dungsi27 (May 24, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Good post.
> 
> I love how people argue points from a ignorant character in Naruto perspective opposed to an actual readers one.
> 
> ...



Actually I do not believe Sasuke has forgiven Konoha at all. He might have abandoned his plan to destroy the village, but who knows that is in his mind when he said he want to become the hokage. He might as well rule in terror, arresting and killing everyone in the village he believed to be directly responsible for his clans massacre, or use the villages force to attack other villages, and rule as a tyrant.

Its more like Sasuke has chosen another path to revenge rather than forgiving anyone at all


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## Mateush (May 24, 2013)

Nope, because he could really want to help the village, with the risk of his own life. Naruto will help him and the alliance will not hate him as much they do now. If he should be punished, then it wouldn't solve anything but satisfy the other shinobis but not his friends who understand him.

With your opinion, so Hiruzen and possibly Tobirama, the rest of the elders and a lot more should be punished as well. It doesn't work in the Narutoverse, it's entirely different from this world.


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## Foxve (May 24, 2013)

Him killing samurai and being the main reason for A losing his arm is more than enough for a death penalty even in their "ninja world".


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## blk (May 24, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> ^ How so? He never successfully captured the Gyūki nor any other bijūs.



The Hachibi's tentacle was enough for start the Juubi's revival [1]. 
Additionally, infinite Tsukuyomi could have been used even if Obito/Madara were the Jinchuuriki of an incomplete Juubi [2].


----------



## ice77 (May 24, 2013)

Well logcially he shouldn't but seeing how much this is turning into another boring shounen he will get scott free for helping to save the world.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Back with a vengeance and.... *looks over thread* reluctance as well disgust.

Well time to start pointing out why

you



			
				Seto Kaiba said:
			
		

> That only affirms Sasuke's culpability in that specific act. So what if he didn't know about the plan? It doesn't excuse him from his wrongdoing.



You're realllllly contradicting yourself. So even though Ohnoki permitted their organization and used them a number of times in the past he's exempt from his wrongdoing. Yeah, nice logic chief.

and you


			
				Supersaiyaman12 said:
			
		

> Doesn't cancel out attacking for foreign Kages.



Sasuke wasn't even going to plan to attack them until Zetsu ruined his infiltration. If anything the samurai and A attacked him first.



> Doesn't cancel out killing Danzo, who, at that point was a person who was the leader of the village appointed by the Daimyo.



The only reason Danzo was appointed by the daimyo was because of the raging hissy fit he went into when it looked like Kakashi was going to be made hokage.

are wrong.



> Kage Summit Arc? Danzo as interim Hokage? Samurai protecting the Kage so they can conduct their meeting in safety? Don't tell me you've forgotten.



Danzo's trust with the kages was lost the moment he decided to use Shisui's Sharingan eye to manipulate Mifune to saying what he wanted. Hell, like Tsuchikage said they can't even trust what he was saying afterwards. Also the dude fled like a bitch as soon as Sasuke arrived in the room they were in.



> Yes, Danzo is evil. We established this.



Then quit making it look like Sasuke is the eviler one even though he did the entire ninja world a favor by wiping out that asshole.



> That's like faulting a cop for trying to apprehend a perp.



And ironically enough they're still held responsible for the damage to the individual.



> Except I never turned a cheek to Tobirama's actions. See, had you been reading to what you're trying to argue against, you might have noticed that I do hold Tobirama responsible for his own actions and decisions



I'm not pointing what suits my argument I'm merely ensuring that you're not being biased. Thank you for pointing out for me that you still say Tobirama has some degree of responsibility for how things have turned out.



> Well it's hard not to be when you're excusing someone like Sasuke.



Everything Sasuke has done has one way or the other worked out to his benefit. Like someone I spoke with on AIM said: "He never truly lost sight of his goal." also "it worked out one way or the other". In a way you can call them collateral damage instigated on their part more than his. 



> And as Itachi revealed, Sasuke wasn't on the chopping block. Danzo said if Itachi put down his rabid clan, Sasuke would be spared.





I...good lord. Danzo as he said in his fight with Sasuke "Even Sasuke was supposed to be killed." *EVERY*...*SINGLE*...*UCHIHA* except him was supposed to be killed. No exceptions. 



> Sasuke was untouched by Danzo for five full years, and untouched even longer after..



Sasuke was untouched because Itachi begged the third hokage to look out for him. And he did. When the third died Itachi had to re-appear and make it apparent that he wasn't dead and so Danzo and the others didn't pull any shit while he was out of the picture. 

Because of Tsunade Sasuke wasn't supposed to be "officially" considered a missing-nin only because of Danzo's effed up organization was he considered one.



> Seriously, stop acting like Sasuke never made his own choices and putting everythign at Danzo's feet.



I never said that Sasuke wasn't responsible for his actions. However, insisting that Itachi kill every Uchiha from elderly, to child, including his beloved little brother is fucked up. Also Itachi having to threaten Danzo to make sure he didn't harm Sasuke is proof he's more of an asshole than Sasuke. At least Sasuke never renegged on a deal.



> Hashirama is a naive idiot who thought Madara was Hokage material. Orochimaru is a slimy, treacherous snake who puts everything in the worst light to put Tobirama on the spot.



Hashirama isn't naive, he was being fair to Madara and giving him something to protect and being more up-front and not underhanded like Tobirama. Also for god sake quit going back to the same argument you've used over and over. It doesn't work.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Hey, we captured this terrorist that we managed to tell us of a planned attack.
> 
> Welp, I guess he's free to go!



And the holier than thou you've shown so much is even more dominant in this post than it was others. 

By the logic you're using the village hidden in the cloud should be wiped off the map due to one of them trying to kidnap Hinata when she was a  child



> Sasuke's crimes is that he was a missing nin.
> He's as bad as Zabuza, Kisame etc ...


.

lol yeah and Sasuke intentionally sought the lives of the hokage. 

OH WAIT...HE didn't 

Only Danzo and the kages got in the way insisting that he "was apart of Akatsuki"because he wore their robes when he went to capture Killer Bee. 



> ^ Having a hand in resurrecting Juubi is a big one.



Okay then lets imprison Naruto as well since he had a hand in resurrecting the Juubi too. Hell while we're at it lets have Ohnoki killed for allowing the actions of Akatsuki since it was for his benefit, and the Raikage that ordered Hinata being kidnapped hanged. 

There's so much morally obnoxious BS in this thread it's flabbergasting and nauseating.


----------



## zuul (May 24, 2013)

I think he only killed a fodder samurai and Danzo.

Nothing too bad, especially for a ninja. Especially in Naruto where psycho killer Gaara has been forgiven.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

@Zuul

Exactly.

Seto's idea of excusing Gaara because "he had a demon controlling his mind" is horse-shit. Sasuke and the Uchiha's had  their "crazy love messing with their mind" gene and yet they're still hold liable for their actions. Gaara was fully aware of how much of an ass he was killing who and why. During the Chunin exams when he killed those bodyguard ninja of the Daimyo who wanted him to take a dive (when he could've easily pants their asses and gone his merry way). 

Fuck the fodder samurai and Danzo. Yahiko's Akatsuki back in their grand old days did more good deeds than he did then Danzo when he was trying to "help" the Shinobi world.


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## The Faceless Man (May 24, 2013)

kresh said:


> He murdered Danzo, attempted to kill Kakashi and Sakura, helped Obito capture part of the 8 tails which is a direct war crime against not only Konoha but the world, attempted to murder Naruto, defected from the village, conspired with Orochimaru, and attacked the 5 kage while murdering a handful of Samurai.
> 
> So, should Sasuke get off scot free, or should he be punished for his actions?  If he is not punished, then what justifies not punishing him?  Does this set the precedent that Shinobi are not under the statutes of law?  Does Konoha's decisions trump all other village's law?
> 
> I see no reason why there shouldn't be punishment following the war.  No punishment would mean all you need to get off without charge would be a monologue and clear intention of protecting Konoha.



kishi gives no fu...s really i expected a redemption some stuff  , sasuke doing something so that people would say woow he really wants to be a good guy

Kishi just made sasuke good in very few chapters , and i never tought the manga will go so bad... from chapter 600 until this day you could deal with the manga and all the shit but now.....

I can't stand it , i hope kishi will wake up or let somone finish the damn job if he doesnt care


----------



## zuul (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Zuul
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> ...



Dude, we're in a story where Jesusruto can absolve absolutelly everything with his talk of love, peace and friendship, so why not the death of a single fodder samurai ?


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

@Zuul

 Well obviously he'll be able to change their minds. I mean he pretty much got everyone to bend backwards and accept his logic. So of course Shodaime or prototype Naruto can get the job done in changing Sasuke's mind. Also Shodaime can vouch for him.


----------



## Blu-ray (May 24, 2013)

Let me ask you this OP, why should he receive punishment? I'm not saying that what Sasuke did wasn't wrong, but why should he be singled out for punishment when no one else is punished? It's not like he committed the most atrocious crimes or he hasn't done any good.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> You're realllllly contradicting yourself. So even though Ohnoki permitted their organization and used them a number of times in the past he's exempt from his wrongdoing. Yeah, nice logic chief.



I don't think you know what 'contradicting' means either, because you keep using these words incorrectly. 



> Sasuke wasn't even going to plan to attack them until Zetsu ruined his infiltration. If anything the samurai and A attacked him first.



That's moronic. He came into their borders, and he was going to disrupt the summit to get to Danzo. Sasuke was a considerable threat and the samurai had their job. 



> The only reason Danzo was appointed by the daimyo was because of the raging hissy fit he went into when it looked like Kakashi was going to be made hokage.



Nonetheless, Sasuke's sense of reason was suspect in his idea to follow Danzo to the summit. 



> Danzo's trust with the kages was lost the moment he decided to use Shisui's Sharingan eye to manipulate Mifune to saying what he wanted. Hell, like Tsuchikage said they can't even trust what he was saying afterwards. Also the dude fled like a bitch as soon as Sasuke arrived in the room they were in.



After which Sasuke attempted, or at least tried, to mow everyone over to get to him. 



> Then quit making it look like Sasuke is the eviler one even though he did the entire ninja world a favor by wiping out that asshole.



This is a moronic statement to make, because I only make Sasuke look as evil as he deserves to be. Just because he killed someone else whom was evil doesn't undo his own wrongdoings. What you ignorantly assume is that because I condemn Sasuke I am not or won't do so for others. It's a moronic line of reasoning.



> And ironically enough they're still held responsible for the damage to the individual.



The argument still stands, your sense of logic is warped. You are holding someone charged with protecting and enforcing law with taking down a perpetrator. 



> I'm not pointing what suits my argument I'm merely ensuring that you're not being biased. Thank you for pointing out for me that you still say Tobirama has some degree of responsibility for how things have turned out.



You're incapable of ensuring anything of the sort. You can't even hold that up on your own end. The logic you're applying is shaky at best. 



> Everything Sasuke has done has one way or the other worked out to his benefit. Like someone I spoke with on AIM said: "He never truly lost sight of his goal." also "it worked out one way or the other". In a way you can call them collateral damage instigated on their part more than his.



Which isn't an argument in his defense, because it doesn't at all change the intent behind his actions. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend. 



> I...good lord. Danzo as he said in his fight with Sasuke "Even Sasuke was supposed to be killed." *EVERY*...*SINGLE*...*UCHIHA* except him was supposed to be killed. No exceptions.



The plan originally was to kill them all, but even Danzo agreed to spare Sasuke on the reasoning that he was innocent to it all. For as long as Itachi was alive, he didn't dare to touch Sasuke, and as proven in his suspicions, Itachi would make sure he wouldn't be able to after he died.

I'll show you how to use the meaning of 'contradiction' btw:

"Every single Uchiha *except him* was supposed to be killed. *No exceptions*"

That's a contradictory statement. 



> Sasuke was untouched because Itachi begged the third hokage to look out for him. And he did. When the third died Itachi had to re-appear and make it apparent that he wasn't dead and so Danzo and the others didn't pull any shit while he was out of the picture.



As I stated. It'd be mistaken to trust Danzo unconditionally. 



> Because of Tsunade Sasuke wasn't supposed to be "officially" considered a missing-nin only because of Danzo's effed up organization was he considered one.



Sasuke was by all means, a missing-nin. He was given a pass only because Naruto had a pull on Tsunade, as in any other case he'd likely have been captured and jailed for his defection. 



> I never said that Sasuke wasn't responsible for his actions. However, insisting that Itachi kill every Uchiha from elderly, to child, including his beloved little brother is fucked up. Also Itachi having to threaten Danzo to make sure he didn't harm Sasuke is proof he's more of an asshole than Sasuke. At least Sasuke never renegged on a deal.



It's a horrible dilemma, but he had two alternatives. He side with his clan and see Sasuke killed in the heat of war, or he side with the village, lose his clan, and have Sasuke spared. You are missing the point here. Danzo being evil doesn't discount Sasuke's own. Because Sasuke was once a victim doesn't justify him victimizing others. 



> Hashirama isn't naive, he was being fair to Madara and giving him something to protect and being more up-front and not underhanded like Tobirama. Also for god sake quit going back to the same argument you've used over and over. It doesn't work.



Hashirama is quite naive. Madara was already far gone, it is only for Hashirama that he agreed, albeit temporarily to work with him in creating the village. Tobirama cannot be faulted for his shift, as while he was prejudiced against his clan, he was not so against Madara the individual. Yes, because whining about me not using an argument is such an effective refutation of it. 



Bender said:


> And the holier than thou you've shown so much is even more dominant in this post than it was others.
> 
> By the logic you're using the village hidden in the cloud should be wiped off the map due to one of them trying to kidnap Hinata when she was a  child



It was a criminal act, yeah. Wiping it off the map however wouldn't be feasible at all. The Lightning village as it was pointed out in particular was engaging in antagonistic acts that threatened the peacetime that had came after the third war. It's much harder however to hold an entire nation accountable than compare to an individual, which makes your comparison faulty. 



> lol yeah and Sasuke intentionally sought the lives of the hokage.
> 
> OH WAIT...HE didn't



It doesn't matter if he intended originally to do so, the fact is he was going to kill them to get what he wanted. 



> Only Danzo and the kages got in the way insisting that he "was apart of Akatsuki"because he wore their robes when he went to capture Killer Bee.



He was apart of Akatsuki more or less, working with Obito and the remaining members. That attempt to kidnap Bee was more than enough. 



> Okay then lets imprison Naruto as well since he had a hand in resurrecting the Juubi too. Hell while we're at it lets have Ohnoki killed for allowing the actions of Akatsuki since it was for his benefit, and the Raikage that ordered Hinata being kidnapped hanged.



Naruto had a hand in resurrecting him how? He wasn't trying to gather a single thing for Obito's sake to revive the beast. What Oonoki did was underhanded as I stated, but not necessarily illegal; but it does show some new leadership is required for the villages for any change to be made. Raikage should consider stepping down, and maybe if he really believed in the new principles admit to those crimes. These are all pathetic attempts to divert from Sasuke's own sins. 



> There's so much morally obnoxious BS in this thread it's flabbergasting and nauseating.



Unlike you and other apologists, some people actually have a basic concept of morality and culpability, stop the presses.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 24, 2013)

Luiz said:


> Wrong. Gaara was redeemed back in Part 1.
> 
> His death only contributed to bringing him and his village closer.



You're talking about reading comprehension and skipping panels and you somehow didn't notice how the story presented Gaara's death and the aftermath leading to the great relief to the character.

It was after his death that they had the look at all the people who care for you Gaara. 



Luiz said:


> Parallels hardly mean a character is a carbon copy of another.



Parallels mirror character themes.

Naruto will succeed where Hash failed to save his friend from darkness. 

Besides come on Itachi didn't leave Sasuke to Naruto because current Sasuke wants to be the Hokage of peace and love.


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## DraconianMithril (May 24, 2013)

If the Government Murdered my Entire Bloodline, I would go on a rampage too. Nuff' Said.

Plus Danzo was a criminal who is partially responsible for the Death of 3rd Hokage and 4th Kazekage. He also murdered a Konoha Affiliate in the Hokage's office with no justification.

People blame Tsunade for Pain's attack on Konoha but it began with Danzo.


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## Addy (May 24, 2013)

let bygons be bygones


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## Raiden (May 24, 2013)

Naruto and Hash exchange should be lulzy


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

DraconianMithril said:


> If the Government Murdered my Entire Bloodline, I would go on a rampage too. Nuff' Said.
> 
> Plus Danzo was a criminal who is partially responsible for the Death of 3rd Hokage and 4th Kazekage. He also murdered a Konoha Affiliate in the Hokage's office with no justification.
> 
> People blame Tsunade for Pain's attack on Konoha but it began with Danzo.



Which is why the elders and Danzo, whom are responsible for it should be held accountable, yet you act like this was something they decided to do on a whim. Both sides have their hand in the outcome. 

No one said he wasn't. His evils don't neutralize Sasuke's.


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## Pennywise (May 24, 2013)

He should get a medal for killing Danzo and vanishing Roots.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I don't think you know what 'contradicting' means either, because you keep using these words incorrectly.



Actually, I do.



> That's moronic. He came into their borders, and he was going to disrupt the summit to get to Danzo. Sasuke was a considerable threat and the samurai had their job.



*DUDE* Danzo broke a rule for the meeting. Something that was made strictly clear not to be broken. Moreover he was childish like with his shit in making things so they work in his favor. Yeah, Sasuke may have been a nut around the kage summit but he was not a childish bitch like Danzo genjutsu'ing a neutral figure.




> Nonetheless, Sasuke's sense of reason was suspect in his idea to follow Danzo to the summit.



So someone who manipulated a neutral figure is more morally right and didn't deserve his just deserts is above Sasuke? Also Sasuke is at fault for wasting the fodders even though they attacked him first? It's called self-defense.



> After which Sasuke attempted, or at least tried, to mow everyone over to get to him.



I'll say it again: Self-defense. 



> This is a moronic statement to make, because I only make Sasuke look as evil as he deserves to be. Just because he killed someone else whom was evil doesn't undo his own wrongdoings. What you ignorantly assume is that because I condemn Sasuke I am not or won't do so for others. It's a moronic line of reasoning.



Okay, we're playing that game. Let's play that game. By that logic Naruto should've killed Nagato and Konan even though the person who was their emotional anchor (Yahiko) was dead and left them to be played like a violin by Obito.

Also I never once insinuated that you did. I'm saying that you're making his actions seem far more abhorrent than Danzo's or anyone else's. Sasuke didn't play the manipulation game or anything that was above revenge. He always stuck close with his goal and didn't go anywhere beyond it.




> The argument still stands, your sense of logic is warped. You are holding someone charged with protecting and enforcing law with taking down a perpetrator.



My logic is warped? Dude, you're saying that Gaara is exempt "because he was manipulated by his demon". That's bullshit. gaara is still responsible for his actions and chose to be the homicidal maniac that he was. Also Sasuke is half when it comes to the ounce of blame he shares. Some of it dates further back, some of it is his doing.  The rookies having the emotional moment due to him possibly starting a war between Konoha and the cloud village and then there's Danzo and the second with their fucking over his clan with their underhanded methods.





> You're incapable of ensuring anything of the sort. You can't even hold that up on your own end. The logic you're applying is shaky at best.



My logic is shaky? Dude you didn't even think of tobirama when you were talking shit about Edo-Tensei.




> Which isn't an argument in his defense, because it doesn't at all change the intent behind his actions. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.




In some cases they are. The kages after the meeting came to the conclusion they all share some ounce of guilt (same with the hoakges due to Konoha's history with how their terrible decisions brought them to where they currently are).



> The plan originally was to kill them all, but even Danzo agreed to spare Sasuke on the reasoning that he was innocent to it all.



You are bullshitting so fuckign hard. Danzo never agreed to Sasuke being killed. When Sasuke and Danzo fought he "cursed" Itachi for sparing Sasuke. It had nothing to do with him being innocent. Itachi needed to threaten Danzo for him to go all asshole and kill him. The third was the only reason why Sasuke was able to breaathe.



> For as long as Itachi was alive, he didn't dare to touch Sasuke, and as proven in his suspicions, Itachi would make sure he wouldn't be able to after he died.



It wasn't just Itachi it was the third hokage. When the third died it gave Danzo the opportunity to make his move. Read the story again.




> As I stated. It'd be mistaken to trust Danzo unconditionally.



And yet the kages did. And at least couldn't ask why and what reason Sasuke had infiltrated the summit.




> Sasuke was by all means, a missing-nin. He was given a pass only because Naruto had a pull on Tsunade, as in any other case he'd likely have been captured and jailed for his defection.



Sasuke hadn't even been apart of Orochimaru's digs in his vendetta against Konoha. 



> It's a horrible dilemma, but he had two alternatives. He side with his clan and see Sasuke killed in the heat of war, or he side with the village, lose his clan, and have Sasuke spared. You are missing the point here. Danzo being evil doesn't discount Sasuke's own. Because Sasuke was once a victim doesn't justify him victimizing others.



For the love of crap. I NEVER said it does. Danzo, and Nidaime are still responsible for Itachi and the Uchiha's falling. Because of "time running out" they couldn't even look at negotiating. Instead they chose to kill them all off.


Look at next post


----------



## Trent (May 24, 2013)

Foxve said:


> Him killing samurai and being the main reason for A losing him arm is more than enough for a death penalty even in their "ninja world".



The Alliance is composed of nins that have been killing / abducting / experimenting on each other for _decades_, and they're all super friends now.

The examples you mentioned are quite tame compared to the horrors they've been doing to each other in the past. 

So with all the positive consequences (intended or not) of Sasuke's actions massively surpassing the actual evil ones, for example just now being the reason why everyone wasn't obliterated thanks to his decision of reviving the kages or earlier by helping out ot stop Edo Tensei, it shouldn't be too hard for him to have his past crimes in effect ignored.

There would be resentment for some, like the rookies, for sure although learning the truth about the Uchiha massacre could also have a limitating effect in this as they would gain a certain level of understanding of his motives at least (which isn't equal to forgiving him though)


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

> Hashirama is quite naive. Madara was already far gone, it is only for Hashirama that he agreed, albeit temporarily to work with him in creating the village. Tobirama cannot be faulted for his shift, as while he was prejudiced against his clan, he was not so against Madara the individual. Yes, because whining about me not using an argument is such an effective refutation of it.



Hashi was willing to negotiate and unlike Danzo, Hiruzen the third hoakge inherited his will.

From top to bottom on Massacre:




> Following the Nine-Tails' attack on Konoha orchestrated by Tobi, Konoha's leadership began to suspect that an Uchiha was behind the attack as the Sharingan possessed the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox and put them under close surveillance from that point onwards.[2]
> 
> According to Tobi, the Uchiha were all forced to live in a corner of the village and felt as though they had been segregated from the rest of the village. The constant suspicion, and discrimination that would ensue, gave birth to feelings of ill-will, and ultimately rekindled the clan's feelings of hatred towards the Senju-influenced government. In planning the coup d'?tat, they entrusted Itachi Uchiha who was an ANBU, to be their spy. However, a pacifist by nature, Itachi knew that a civil war would result into another Shinobi World War and instead provided Konoha with information on the Uchiha's plans.[3][4]
> 
> ...



The most important piece:



> *Though the Third Hokage Hiruzen Sarutobi, who did not agree with the treatment being dealt to the Uchiha*,[2][5] attempted to achieve a peacefully resolution with the clan, *Danzō Shimura ? who was not one to wait around for peaceful negotiations ? convinced Itachi that slaughtering his entire clan was the only way to avert, promising that his younger brother Sasuke Uchiha would be spared.[*6]



Look even further into it. Even though Danzo had agreed to leave Sasuke untouched Danzo stole Itachi's best friend  big brother mentor Shisui's eye. 



> It was a criminal act, yeah. Wiping it off the map however wouldn't be feasible at all. The Lightning village as it was pointed out in particular was engaging in antagonistic acts that threatened the peacetime that had came after the third war. It's much harder however to hold an entire nation accountable than compare to an individual, which makes your comparison faulty.



The one who orchestrated the attack should be held in account for it. The only reason why the whole thing was ignored was because no one wanted to get into war.




> It doesn't matter if he intended originally to do so, the fact is he was going to kill them to get what he wanted.



How do you Sasuke was going to kill all the kages to get to Danzo? He was going to kill anyone who got in his way.




> He was apart of Akatsuki more or less, working with Obito and the remaining members. That attempt to kidnap Bee was more than enough.



What? What the hell kind of logic is that? "Durr because he was working with Obito that means he's apart of Akatsuki". Okay, then lets hold Ohnoki responsible and have him executed for using Akatsuki same with the former Kazekage for working with Orochimaru.

Sasuke was immeditely headed to Konoha as soon as he captured Killer Bee.



> Naruto had a hand in resurrecting him how? He wasn't trying to gather a single thing for Obito's sake to revive the beast. What Oonoki did was underhanded as I stated, but not necessarily illegal; but it does show some new leadership is required for the villages for any change to be made. Raikage should consider stepping down, and maybe if he really believed in the new principles admit to those crimes. These are all pathetic attempts to divert from Sasuke's own sins.




It is illegal to have a organization of criminals on your payroll. Moreover when one of them (Deidara) captured a kage to extract his bijuu for their plans. 

Also the Raikage shouldn't need to step down but take responsibility for his actions and give a necessary apology. 





> Unlike you and other apologists, some people actually have a basic concept of morality and culpability, stop the presses.



Pfft. Dude you're putting Danzo above Sasuke and saying that Sasuke's actions hardly have a positive tune to them if he got rid of the right people.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Actually, I do.



Evidently not. 



> *DUDE* Danzo broke a rule for the meeting. Something that was made strictly clear not to be broken. Moreover he was childish like with his shit in making things so they work in his favor. Yeah, Sasuke may have been a nut around the kage summit but he was not a childish bitch like Danzo genjutsu'ing a neutral figure.



Which is why he lost the opportunity to commandeer the alliance, and disgraced himself. I am not saying at all Danzo was good, so I don't see why you so desperately go prattling on about it.



> So someone who manipulated a neutral figure is more morally right and didn't deserve his just deserts is above Sasuke? Also Sasuke is at fault for wasting the fodders even though they attacked him first? It's called self-defense.



This is moronic. You obviously aren't able to read, because I keep saying Danzo was an evil person that deserved his just desserts. You again, ignorantly assume that because I'm condemning Sasuke I am not doing so for anyone else. 



> I'll say it again: Self-defense.



Doesn't apply to criminals. 



> Okay, we're playing that game. Let's play that game. By that logic Naruto should've killed Nagato and Konan even though the person who was their emotional anchor (Yahiko) was dead and left them to be played like a violin by Obito.



You seem to not be able to play this game. It doesn't address the argument I made at all.



> Also I never once insinuated that you did. I'm saying that you're making his actions seem far more abhorrent than Danzo's or anyone else's. Sasuke didn't play the manipulation game or anything that was above revenge. He always stuck close with his goal and didn't go anywhere beyond it.



You have continuously, especially with your mindless ramblings about Danzo. I told you that kind of reasoning is dumb, Sasuke's evils are his own and Danzo's are his.



> My logic is warped? Dude, you're saying that Gaara is exempt "because he was manipulated by his demon". That's bullshit. gaara is still responsible for his actions and chose to be the homicidal maniac that he was.



Yes, it's absolutely moronic. The demon explicitly was confirmed to have a grip on Gaara's personality and compromise his sense of rationality. He was not allowed to sleep, and he already had existing mental traumas on top of that. He didn't choose to be anything, that was the entire point behind the exposition of his character. 



> Also Sasuke is half when it comes to the ounce of blame he shares. Some of it dates further back, some of it is his doing.  The rookies having the emotional moment due to him possibly starting a war between Konoha and the cloud village and then there's Danzo and the second with their fucking over his clan with their underhanded methods.



Tobirama started the flawed path, but nothing was established that he did anything atrocious, just prejudiced and wrong. Danzo took it to the extreme, and that is where it became atrocious. In the scheme of a larger conflict, Sasuke is a small player but in consideration of his actions as an individual he's done more than enough to be held accountable for. 



> My logic is shaky? Dude you didn't even think of tobirama when you were talking shit about Edo-Tensei.



Except I was, but this goes back to my point in that you have this trouble seeing that because I point out Sasuke's evils doesn't mean I'm not doing the same for others. Tobirama made a lot of problems for the people that came after him with his shortsightedness and prejudice. 



> In some cases they are. The kages after the meeting came to the conclusion they all share some ounce of guilt (same with the hoakges due to Konoha's history with how their terrible decisions brought them to where they currently are).



Oonoki, Ei, and Danzo in particular. On behalf of their villages' past Mei and Gaara, even though the former toppled the regime that had been known for its violent methods, and the latter only after resolving not to be a mere figurehead as he was intended to be. 



> You are bullshitting so fuckign hard. Danzo never agreed to Sasuke being killed.



Not sure if this is in error in words or what, but Danzo wanted all Uchihas killed originally. He accepted Itachi's request to spare Sasuke based on his reasoning in exchange for Itachi's agreement to take out the clan. 



> When Sasuke and Danzo fought he "cursed" Itachi for sparing Sasuke. It had nothing to do with him being innocent. Itachi needed to threaten Danzo for him to go all asshole and kill him. The third was the only reason why Sasuke was able to breaathe.



Because it was not his original desire to spare Sasuke, he simply agreed to the terms, conditionally of course. Danzo was untrustworthy and there's no one arguing otherwise, which is why I said it would have been mistaken to trust him unconditionally if at all. 



> It wasn't just Itachi it was the third hokage. When the third died it gave Danzo the opportunity to make his move. Read the story again.



Part of why Kakashi in particular was chosen to be Sasuke's teacher...



> And yet the kages did. And at least couldn't ask why and what reason Sasuke had infiltrated the summit.



They were like anyone else at the time, unaware of his nature or the deeds he had carried. He didn't exactly do them in the open. 

See this is dumb, it's not their job nor their responsibility to ask Sasuke what he's doing there because he presented himself as a hostile force to begin with. 



> Sasuke hadn't even been apart of Orochimaru's digs in his vendetta against Konoha.



Only by stroke of luck. It was a mere delay that kept Orochimaru from taking Sasuke's body. Furthermore, Sasuke openly affiliated with him in no consideration of Orochimaru's machinations. 



> For the love of crap. I NEVER said it does. Danzo, and Nidaime are still responsible for Itachi and the Uchiha's falling. Because of "time running out" they couldn't even look at negotiating. Instead they chose to kill them all off.



Tobirama didn't believe in eradication of the Uchiha, in contrast to Danzo. Nidaime set up the first pieces that led to the feelings of resentment in the clan; Danzo was the extremist in this case. Again however, it was a mistake for the clan to opt for violence against the village in response to those feelings all it would have resulted in is complete destruction of both entities.


----------



## Yakkai (May 24, 2013)

Well, Kaiba really doesn't need my help but I'm going to chime in. Before I do, I'll say I don't think Sasuke will suffer any negative impact for his crimes at all. I think as is fitting the low quality of Part 2 and the War Arc, we've seen as much downside as Sauce will ever suffer from. What follows is what /should/ happen if this manga made any kind of sense.

Sasuke's Crimes.

This is all about state sanctioned application of force. Shinobi are murderers, true. A lot of shinobi have murdered a lot more people than Sasuke, BUT, not all murders are equal. Shinobi operate in the village system, that means every assassination is authorized by one of the hidden villages. This makes those murders 'state sanctioned'. Follow so far? Yes, Gaara killed a lot of people and was redeemed. But every one of those killings happened under the authorization of the sand village. Gaara's crime was not murder, it was excessive force. As an asset, he was unstable and out of control. This alone was enough that the Sand Village tried to get rid of him several times, but failed. Think about that.

Now, Sasuke's specific crimes from the point of view of the Leaf Village:

Dereliction of Duty: He was an asset trained, housed, fed, and supported for 13 years by the Leaf Village, trained to be a shinobi under Leaf Village authorization. He went rogue. This alone is a death penalty offence in anything resembling the real world. I don't think anyone who hasn't served in the military can really understand what a horrible crime this is. In times of war, they shoot you in the head for this shit. On the spot, no trial, no jury, no crying mother. Boom, dead, roll the body in a ditch and spit on it.

Treason: Sauce not only went rogue, he joined the man who was, at the time anyway, the Leaf Village's greatest foe. This is actually the worst of Sasuke's crimes. This is absolute death penalty. Full stop. Almost any kind of organization at all, especially a league of assassins, would kill you for this. 

Assassination of Acting Hokage: Danzo's a jerk, Danzo did bad things, Danzo deserved killing! Yes that's all true. However, Danzo was the acting hokage, which means killing him was the equivalent of killing the president and then saying, 'yes but but he was a jerk and started wars'. It doesn't matter what Danzo did. At the time, he was the leader and head of Konoha's shinobi system, and assassinating him was a grievous crime against Konoha. Death penalty offense. Drag your dead body through the streets of Konoha so the villagers can throw rotten fruit at you, cut your body up, and hang the pieces from the four corners of the village level offense. In anything at all even vaguely resembling a world where cause and effect exists as a physical force, this should get Sasuke in some kind of trouble. We all know it won't.

Attempted Murder: Too many instances to count. While in the employ of enemy agents like Orochimaru and then Akatsuki, the most wanted terrorist /guerilla forces in the world, Sasuke repeatedly attacked and tried to murder Konoha assets in the field. Send him to Ninja Gitmo!

In comparison, from the point of view of their own village heads, Gaara is only guilty of excessive force, and Sasuke is guilty of dereliction of duty, treason, assassinating the Hokage, and numerous counts of attempted murder. There's absolutely no comparison.  Sasuke should suffer some negative outcome from going rogue, becoming a terrorist, and assassinating Konoha's acting leader. Kishi's story will be all the weaker and more pathetic because he probably won't. 

Now you can say that Konoha grievously wronged Sasuke by wiping out the Uchiha. Well. Konoha didn't do a thing. Danzo, Itachi, Obito and a handful of people did. Sally Jo the adorable ten year old ninja girl was not involved, so anthropomorphizing Konoha into one mass entity that collectively killed the Uchiha is wrongheaded. Its also a silly argument to use. Try that one in a court room. 'But you see your honor, the white man murdered my people, so I was totally justified in beheading those white folks.' 'oh you're right, my bad! let him go!'


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Hashi was willing to negotiate and unlike Danzo, Hiruzen the third hoakge inherited his will.



No kidding. Didn't say that wasn't the case. 



> From top to bottom on Massacre:
> 
> 
> The most important piece:
> ...



I pointed out that detail previously, Danzo prevented a possible solution with his antagonism. 



> The one who orchestrated the attack should be held in account for it. The only reason why the whole thing was ignored was because no one wanted to get into war.



I don't think anyone thinks the elders or Danzo deserve a free pass. No one has argued that.



> How do you Sasuke was going to kill all the kages to get to Danzo? He was going to kill anyone who got in his way.



Which is where his fault lies. 



> What? What the hell kind of logic is that? "Durr because he was working with Obito that means he's apart of Akatsuki". Okay, then lets hold Ohnoki responsible and have him executed for using Akatsuki same with the former Kazekage for working with Orochimaru.



Yes, that's perfectly valid logic to apply. How moronic is your line of reasoning? We hold people responsible based on that all the time. It's called being an 'accessory'. 

Your arguments just keep getting dumber and you keep repeating the same thing even after I answer them. Oonoki was underhanded, he's obviously been in power too long, but hiring mercenaries is not unheard of and apparently not illegal. The former Kazekage is dead, it's hard to do that. 



> Sasuke was immeditely headed to Konoha as soon as he captured Killer Bee.



To destroy it. 



> It is illegal to have a organization of criminals on your payroll. Moreover when one of them (Deidara) captured a kage to extract his bijuu for their plans.



That's the problem, they weren't on a payroll, they were independently contracted mercenaries. It wasn't this job that made them criminals it was their attacks on the nations that made them as such. Oonoki hired them during wartime to handle matters and reduce costs, which is what makes Oonoki's hiring of them during war underhanded. 



> Also the Raikage shouldn't need to step down but take responsibility for his actions and give a necessary apology.



The Raikage has done quite his share of causing antagonism between the villages, so obviously, there is high-time for a fresh face in the seat. 



> Pfft. Dude you're putting Danzo above Sasuke and saying that Sasuke's actions hardly have a positive tune to them if he got rid of the right people.



This is getting stupid. I'm not putting Danzo above anyone. He's an evil monster, but him being so doesn't excuse Sasuke. Simple as that.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Evidently not.



'kay you keep thinking whatever makes ya happy.





> Which is why he lost the opportunity to commandeer the alliance, and disgraced himself. I am not saying at all Danzo was good, so I don't see why you so desperately go prattling on about it.



I'm saying that his actions should've been investigated even further back before they so wantonly allowed him to speak LIKE AT ALL at any meetings. Shit even sending Shizune to the meeting place would've been better than that snake.




> *You again, ignorantly assume that because I'm condemning Sasuke I am not doing so for anyone else.*



I'm not.

I'm saying Sasuke's going bonkers seeing as how what he pressured his brother into doing.




> *Doesn't apply to criminals. *



LOL

LOL

I should sig that shit. 

Self-defense applies to EVERYONE. Criminals, incarcerated ones too.

You're really showcasing a knight templar sort of mentality.. Liek the kind Death Note Light has.

It's liek you believe some people who had been driven into madness and become criminals aren't allowed redemption. 



> You seem to not be able to play this game. It doesn't address the argument I made at all.



Your argument and basis of why Sasuke should be punished is extreme. Know what extreme means? It means you're speaking like fucking Light Yagami in saying people aren't allowed redemption.



> You have continuously, especially with your mindless ramblings about Danzo. I told you that kind of reasoning is dumb, Sasuke's evils are his own and Danzo's are his.



So Sasuke going mad and seeing Danzo (and Konoha basically on his list as a result of the Uchiha madness gene) should pay is something that isn't result of the failure of the past decision of the hokages.



> *Yes, it's absolutely moronic. The demon explicitly was confirmed to have a grip on Gaara's personality and compromise his sense of rationality. *



And because you say that I say it's bullshit. Gaara even apologized to his siblings after the invasion of Konoha came to a close. Gaara's actions are still his own. Quit trying to push off his responsibility.

Gaara thought of killing people on his own. The only thing Shukaku did was make him go even crazier, i.e. drooling facial changes and more looney in wanting to kill people. Shukaku didn't make him decide to want to be homicidal mess after Yashamaru's botched attempt to kill him. He did. Shukaku only provided the badass tat and etc.




> Tobirama started the flawed path, but nothing was established that he did anything atrocious, just prejudiced and wrong.



His actions are still wrong and lead to the Uchiha situation becoming more of a mess.




> Danzo took it to the extreme, and that is where it became atrocious. In the scheme of a larger conflict, Sasuke is a small player but in consideration of his actions as an individual he's done more than enough to be held accountable for.



Sasuke is an after-effect of how Tobirama fucked up with his policies, Danzo taking Tobirama's ideals to a more fucked up level. Tobirama and Danzo are more blame-worthy if they lead to what happened to the Uchiha.



> Except I was, but this goes back to my point in that you have this trouble seeing that because I point out Sasuke's evils doesn't mean I'm not doing the same for others.



Look: I'm not saying that Sasuke isn't to blame for wanting to kill his former team or anything. but him wanting to kill Danzo and as an extension  Konoha is because of the Uchiha situation. And nothing you say can change that fact that it's both Tobirama and Danzo's fault. 

You make it seem like I'm saying it's the whole ninja world's fault for Sasuke's life sucking. I'm not.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> I'm saying that his actions should've been investigated even further back before they so wantonly allowed him to speak LIKE AT ALL at any meetings. Shit even sending Shizune to the meeting place would've been better than that snake.



No one knew about Danzo however, he went out of his way to keep his deeds a secret.



> I'm not.



You keep complaining that I'm "making Sasuke out to be more evil than Danzo", I'm not. I am only trying to discuss Sasuke's evils, and you guys desperately have to throw other characters in as if it changes anything. 



> I'm saying Sasuke's going bonkers seeing as how what he pressured his brother into doing.



His anger is understandable, what he did out of anger is not. 



> LOL
> 
> LOL
> 
> ...



Do it, and people outside this section will take you less seriously than they already do. 

Sasuke was a criminal that invaded their borders and presented himself as a hostile entity, he doesn't have the right to self-defense. 



> You're really showcasing a knight templar sort of mentality.. Liek the kind Death Note Light has.



You don't even understand the concepts you cite, and this appears no different.



> It's liek you believe some people who had been driven into madness and become criminals aren't allowed redemption.



No, it's just that there is always a too late or else we could argue someone like Danzo should be allowed redemption. Even so, criminals change all the time but that doesn't mean they aren't to answer for their crimes. 



> Your argument and basis of why Sasuke should be punished is extreme. Know what extreme means? It means you're speaking like fucking Light Yagami in saying people aren't allowed redemption.



Once again, citing concepts you have no grasp of. 



> So Sasuke going mad and seeing Danzo (and Konoha basically on his list as a result of the Uchiha madness gene) should pay is something that isn't result of the failure of the past decision of the hokages.



Danzo should have answered for his crimes, if Sasuke had the right to enact this is another matter entirely, but it's already done. Danzo was killed by Sasuke's hands and dug his own grave. 



> And because you say that I say it's bullshit. Gaara even apologized to his siblings after the invasion of Konoha came to a close. Gaara's actions are still his own. Quit trying to push off his responsibility.



Because he wanted to change, he always did. Gaara's actions aren't entirely his own, which makes him so much different from every other antagonist. He's the only one whose known to have an entity pulling his on his consciosuness and influencing his actions. 



> Gaara thought of killing people on his own. The only thing Shukaku did was make him go even crazier, i.e. drooling facial changes and more looney in wanting to kill people. Shukaku didn't make him decide to want to be homicidal mess after Yashamaru's botched attempt to kill him. He did. Shukaku only provided the badass tat and etc.



Those exacerbation only occurred in stress, but Shukaku had a constant presence in his mind, hence the not being allowed to sleep thing. He would be consumed completely.



> His actions are still wrong and lead to the Uchiha situation becoming more of a mess.



That's what I said. 



> Sasuke is an after-effect of how Tobirama fucked up with his policies, Danzo taking Tobirama's ideals to a more fucked up level. Tobirama and Danzo are more blame-worthy if they lead to what happened to the Uchiha.



Tobirama is to blame for setting the pieces to enable future events, but for the actual atrocities, that is on Danzo's shoulders. 



> Look: I'm not saying that Sasuke isn't to blame for wanting to kill his former team or anything. but him wanting to kill Danzo and as an extension  Konoha is because of the Uchiha situation. And nothing you say can change that fact that it's both Tobirama and Danzo's fault.



He was justly angered against Danzo and wanting to take him down, just like how he was initially with Itachi. It is the means he employed to get to those goals that make him wrong. 



> You make it seem like I'm saying it's the whole ninja world's fault for Sasuke's life sucking. I'm not.



I don't blame Sasuke all the same for the circumstances he was living under, but I do fault him for the choices he made to deal with them.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> Well, Kaiba really doesn't need my help but I'm going to chime in.



You should. If I ever see something as silly as "Self-defense doesn't apply to criminals" I may stop arguing with him and therefore you'll be my next opponent.





> But every one of those killings happened under the authorization of the sand village.



What ARE you talking about? The sand didn't authorize Gaara to kill Lee in his sleep. the sand didn't authorize Gaara to kill the shinobi bodyguards of the Daimyo during the last part of the Chunin exams.





> Assassination of Acting Hokage: Danzo's a jerk, Danzo did bad things, Danzo deserved killing! Yes that's all true. However, Danzo was the acting hokage, which means killing him was the equivalent of killing the president



Honestly, Danzo should've been killed before he became hokage. He killed a fucking frog to prevent Naruto from returning to the village. Hell he even tried manipulating Kohane and Utane to convince Tsunade into thinking otherwise about having Naruto return. And during Pain's attack on the village he tried taking refuge with the rest of his followers and have his rule emerge  in the aftermath of the destruction of the village. 

That's usurping man.



> Attempted Murder: Too many instances to count. While in the employ of enemy agents like Orochimaru and then Akatsuki, the most wanted terrorist /guerilla forces in the world, Sasuke repeatedly attacked and tried to murder Konoha assets in the field. Send him to Ninja Gitmo!



What assets in the field? you mean Naruto, Sasuke, Sai, and Yamato? It's pretty clear that they could care less about. Also he didn't even leave any lasting scars.



> In comparison, from the point of view of their own village heads, Gaara is only guilty of excessive force, and Sasuke is guilty of dereliction of duty, treason, assassinating the Hokage, and numerous counts of attempted murder.



You're forgetting Gaara attempted to kill Lee when he was asleep in the hospital? Are you seriously going to write that off? Moreover he threatened (and almost did had Gai no interrupted him) and tried to kill Naruto and Shikamaru.




> There's absolutely no comparison.  Sasuke should suffer some negative outcome from going rogue, becoming a terrorist, and assassinating Konoha's acting leader. Kishi's story will be all the weaker and more pathetic because he probably won't.



This is pathetic. You're seriously hanging Akatsuki lounging (which he did liek what..less than an hour of paling around with them) over his head? He hardly even had a long lasting relationship with them. Much less cared what their goals were.



> Now you can say that Konoha grievously wronged Sasuke by wiping out the Uchiha. Well. Konoha didn't do a thing. Danzo, Itachi, Obito and a handful of people did. '



Danzo, Kohane, Utane (who leaned in Danzo's favor) are responsible for the clan being wiped off the map and Sasuke having the survivor guilt.



			
				Seto Kaiba said:
			
		

> This is getting stupid. I'm not putting Danzo above anyone. He's an evil monster, but him being so doesn't excuse Sasuke. Simple as that.



Sasuke being the way he does makes sense if he had to deal with so much survivor guilt and so and so.

Saying Sasuke should remain sane even though he's the last of his kind is just plain trolling.


----------



## ShadowReij (May 24, 2013)

Veja24 said:


> Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.



Technically they don't. The only police force we saw concentrated on internal village affairs. Seems like depending on how much the village wants you back vs what you've done exactly determines your fate.

And Sasuke's list is one heck of a balancing sheet.

Also, no one gives a shit Danzou died, not even the Third.


----------



## Baroxio (May 24, 2013)

Yakkai said:
			
		

> Yes, Gaara killed a lot of people and was redeemed. *But every one of those killings happened under the authorization of the sand village*. Gaara's crime was not murder, it was excessive force. As an asset, he was unstable and out of control. This alone was enough that* the Sand Village tried to get rid of him several times, but failed*. Think about that



The bolded parts are in conflict. If Gaara is killing the assassins sent to kill him by the government, then Gaara is committing murder, is he not?

Furthermore there are the random killings that *couldn't *have been directly ordered, such as the Graas Genin Team, and the 2 fodder chunin who wanted him to take a dive. He even threatened to kill his own family members, who were attempting to complete things peacefully with him.

The next time we see him in Part 2, he's already Kazekage, and the people love him enough to attempt a mass rescue completely against the orders of the higher-ups.

Gaara's redemption therefore was before his death, and the crimes he committed were arguably worse than Sasuke's, though neither of their crimes were as bad as Danzo's, and he too became Hokage, if only temporarily. 

Bare in mind that things like, running off to join an enemy is somewhat countered by him defeating and later recruiting that enemy, on top of using that recruited help to bring in the calvary during a time of immense need, and I think a pardon is most certainly in order.

Sasuke has done a lot of bad, but as things are going now, the good things he's done are *far *outweighing them.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No one knew about Danzo however, he went out of his way to keep his deeds a secret.



Which should put animosity towards people who collaborated with him and knew of his deeds but did nothing to stop him on a higher level of contempt. 



> You keep complaining that I'm "making Sasuke out to be more evil than Danzo", I'm not. I am only trying to discuss Sasuke's evils, and you guys desperately have to throw other characters in as if it changes anything.



I'm not but your post is implying that




> His anger is understandable, what he did out of anger is not.



Hating Konoha even though or several centuries the policy towards the Uchiha didn't change, when they were coming to decision Danzo hijacked discussion and went "fuck negotiations" then towards the "we should wipe them all the fuck out" direction. Moreover Hiruzen and everyone else meekly agreed with him even though negotiation is possible. Danzo kissing Tobirama's ass cheeks wanted to go that direction even though it is obnoxiously wrong in every possible way.

Seriously who wouldn't want to hate them? The only thing that was known about most of the leaders and its government were the positives no one had known any deals that happened behind doors. Those like the rookie nine were living ignorant of the truth, same with other Konoha citizens so that of course would piss a sole survivor of the clan. 

However, lets get something straight, I'm not at all saying I agree with Sasuke's action. I am saying however that his anger towards them (especially when the madness gene hijacks logic) his decision of annihilating Konoha is predictable. 



> Do it, and people outside this section will take you less seriously than they already do.
> 
> Sasuke was a criminal that invaded their borders and presented himself as a hostile entity, he doesn't have the right to self-defense.



Dude, when you said that my mom laughs, the person I'm talking to on AIM laughed.

Self-defense applies to everyone. By the logic you're presenting, I'm not allowed to beat the living crap out of someone who tries to shank me in prison.



> No, it's just that there is always a too late or else we could argue someone like Danzo should be allowed redemption. Even so, criminals change all the time but that doesn't mean they aren't to answer for their crimes.



Danzo's list of crimes run deeper than Sasuke's do. Not only did he get mixed in affairs with a tyrant like Hanzo, he tried to take Ao's Byakugan (kill him too IIRC), made deals that weren't officially approved of.



> Tobirama is to blame for setting the pieces to enable future events, but for the actual atrocities, that is on Danzo's shoulders.



The blame I'm placing on Danzo's shoulder is for screwing the Ame-orphans, underhanded schemes, being an asshole towards the hokage, and pushing Itachi into a corner.




> He was justly angered against Danzo and wanting to take him down, just like how he was initially with Itachi. It is the means he employed to get to those goals that make him wrong.



Not just the means but the ripples they had. Hell, you can even call him responsible for Pain existing at all. Because of the assistance he lent Hanzo we got the guy who all but wrecked the shit out of Konoha. And what did Danzo do when Konoha was attacked? He went underground with his followers. He shouldn't have been acknowledged as a Hokage. Like at all.


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## Let'sFightingLove (May 24, 2013)

if I had to guess it's going to do with understanding. right now it is 'for what reason have you done all these bad things sasuke?' next will be,' those were bad things you did sasuke, but considering your circumstances they are understandable, having experienced the same myself I forgive you because I would've done exactly that'.


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## Olympian (May 24, 2013)

Veja24 said:


> Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.



That`s a really simplistic view of what Sasuke has done so far. He hasn`t just "killed" someone, he directly endangered more than one country with his actions and attemped asassination acts to topple the same. That`s treason.

And Konoha at least does have a police in it`s system, or used to.


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## ShadowReij (May 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> The bolded parts are in conflict. If Gaara is killing the assassins sent to kill him by the government, then Gaara is committing murder, is he not?
> 
> Furthermore there are the random killings that *couldn't *have been directly ordered, such as the Graas Genin Team, and the 2 fodder chunin who wanted him to take a dive. He even threatened to kill his own family members, who were attempting to complete things peacefully with him.
> 
> ...


Outweighing is starting to become an understatement at this point.


Let'sFightingLove said:


> if I had to guess it's going to do with understanding. right now it is 'for what reason have you done all these bad things sasuke?' next will be,' those were bad things you did sasuke, but considering your circumstances they are understandable, having experienced the same myself I forgive you because I would've done exactly that'.



Essentially, especially for people like A who no doubt would've torn up the world in similar response.


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## Jagger (May 24, 2013)

He's going to be forgiven considering how reckless, stupid and dangerous his actions were. People talk of Danzo like he was some kind of villain towards the village, he actually did what he though it was the right thing to do. It was still an act of betrayal towards the village.


----------



## ShadowReij (May 24, 2013)

Jagger said:


> He's going to be forgiven considering how reckless, stupid and dangerous his actions were. People talk of Danzo like he was some kind of villain towards the village, he actually did what he though it was the right thing to do. It was still an act of betrayal towards the village.



You mean letting your village get destroyed just for the sake of gaining position and taking over is for the "good of the village". Good to know.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Danzo is an asshole. Dude was willingly to let the village turn to shit and killed a frog to prevent Naruto returning.


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## Sete (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> Danzo is an asshole. Dude was willingly to let the village turn to shit and killed a frog to prevent Naruto returning.



And the frog had a familie...Just like the samurai's that Sauce killed had one also...


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## Cord (May 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His brother was a bad influence, but his brother wasn't consuming his humanity, nor was he an active, physically present, internal, obtrusive influence.



The Biju inside him didn't have any significant influence on Gaara's murderous state to begin with. His drive in killing other people is purely out of bloodlust which stems from a preconceived notion of "myself and myself alone"- a notion he got from his uncle.

What difference does it make if Itachi wasn't consuming his humanity nor was he a physically internal obtrusive influence when he was blatantly injecting negatively provoking images and thoughts unto his little kid brother's mind? 



> However, he did not MAKE Sasuke do anything.



Itachi was _pushing_ him to gain more hatred. Placing him inside Tsukuyomi on multiple occasions is a testament to that. 



> No. Because it is in no way in line with any sense of it in modern society.



Perhaps, because I am thinking more in a manga's perspective rather than what or how it's supposed to be in the real world. Since the premise of this manga has always been focused more on character redemption rather than the consequences they take for every action made.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

Sete said:


> And the frog had a familie...Just like the samurai's that Sauce killed had one also...



Sasuke wasn't going to kill them until Zetsu like a rat pointed out he was there..


----------



## Orochibuto (May 24, 2013)

Sasuke's pardon is not a moral but a political one, this is where you seem mistaken.

Sasuke is going to be let free because his help is needed to defeat Juubi/Madara something I think will be made clear in the next chapters.

The situation is pretty much the same as Stalin, he did helped Hitler and his grand Germany by plotting with him, he commited murders and attrocities equal to Hitler's or worse. Why was then he spared? Simply, because it was clear that without the Soviet Union Germany may not have been defeated, he was necessary to do so.

You can't just as a nation form ally with someone to save your ass and then say "Oh now that the threat is going, its time to jail your ass!" it kills your credibility as a nation.


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> Sasuke's pardon is not a moral but a political one, this is where you seem mistaken.
> 
> Sasuke is going to be let free because his help is needed to defeat Juubi/Madara something I think will be made clear in the next chapters.
> 
> ...



Sauce isn't necessary.

Orochimaru is the one in control of the four Hokages.  And so far, Sasuke hasn't shown very much power at all.  He was getting treated like a peasant by Kabuto while Itachi was the one who could actually keep up against Kabuto.  

And wouldn't it kill your credibility as a nation to instate the guy who attempted to kill another nation's leader as Hokage?  That would be like USA instating a high ranking Nazi who conspired with Hitler as President and saying it's fine.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

@Orochibuto 



> The situation is pretty much the same as Stalin, he did helped Hitler and his grand Germany by plotting with him, he commited murders and attrocities equal to Hitler's or worse. Why was then he spared? Simply, because it was clear that without the Soviet Union Germany may not have been defeated, he was necessary to do so.



That is perhaps the best analogy I've seen.


----------



## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Orochibuto
> 
> 
> 
> That is perhaps the best analogy I've seen.



USSR then backed out of the war and left the Allies to fight the Germans by signing a non-aggression act.  That's the equivalent of Sasuke backing out of fighting Madara and agreeing with him that he would not hurt Madara if Madara doesn't hurt him.

Not to mention, immediately after the war the USA and USSR nearly had a global nuclear war that lasted for decades.


----------



## Bender (May 24, 2013)

kresh said:


> USSR then backed out of the war and left the Allies to fight the Germans by signing a non-aggression act.  That's the equivalent of Sasuke backing out of fighting Madara and agreeing with him that he would not hurt Madara if Madara doesn't hurt him.
> 
> Not to mention, immediately after the war the USA and USSR nearly had a global nuclear war that lasted for decades.



Sasuke has every right to annihilate Madara. He's the one who started the Uchiha's descent into shit in the first place. Like he would side with him. 

Also as Orochibuto said before: "Sasuke's pardon is political, not moral".  Itachi wanted the village protect he wanted peace, even though the majority of them were batshit he needs to act as a testament to self-sacrificing Uchiha like Kagami, Shisui and his brother. 

Seriously, the grudging mentality people have here is vexing.


----------



## Orochibuto (May 24, 2013)

kresh said:


> USSR then backed out of the war and left the Allies to fight the Germans by signing a non-aggression act.  That's the equivalent of Sasuke backing out of fighting Madara and agreeing with him that he would not hurt Madara if Madara doesn't hurt him.



You also forgot to mention Stalin did made partitions and plans for Poland along with Germany, in other words he planned the invasion with him. Not to mention that he as well did slaughters and crimes agaisnt humanity, just like Hitler did, not to mention he as well invaded countried he had no right to invade, just like Germany. Yet he was not attempted to be punished, why? Simply because this isn't what the world needed at that momment.




kresh said:


> Sauce isn't necessary.
> 
> Orochimaru is the one in control of the four Hokages.  And so far, Sasuke hasn't shown very much power at all.  He was getting treated like a peasant by Kabuto while Itachi was the one who could actually keep up against Kabuto.



Right now? Of course not, but I think its obvious even if it is an asspull Sasuke will in this fight along with the other members of Team 7 be a crucial part of defeating Madara/Juubi, since even fucking Sakura will be, so probably so will Sasuke.

However if the fight ends in such a way that Sasuke's contribution was minimal or not necessary for the outcome, then I recant my statement, however I am posting based on the assumption that it will be necessary to the point it will be made clear that without his contrubition Juubi/Madara/Obito may not be defeated.



kresh said:


> And wouldn't it kill your credibility as a nation to instate the guy who attempted to kill another nation's leader as Hokage?



I NEVER said anything about Sasuke becoming Hokage, I agree with you, this premise to me is absolutely ridiculous, I am talking about not receiving punishment for his crimes, not becoming Hokage.

And I am not even saying I agree with not receiving punishment, just stating the logical political reasons why probably he won't receive it. Kishi can do what he wants, but to me this would be a more logical scenario than the "He gets a free pass, because Naruto says so". At least it would make sense according to politics.



kresh said:


> That would be like USA instating a high ranking Nazi who conspired with Hitler as President and saying it's fine.



No, I am not talking about Sasuke becoming Hokage, seriously Kresh I am one of the most hardcore Uchiha haters in the forum's history, why would you even dare to suggest I am saying that?

I am talking about Sasuke not beign punished, something that while I may not agree with would make sense if he proves a key role in defeating the enemies.

The situation is more like the Stalin analogy I gave you, or if you want a more modern one, it would be like what USA already does: They capture minor druglords that have sent dozens of tons of drugs into the USA. However these drug lords are allowed to go free if they cooperate in dismantling the cartels and capture the big boss. Or why Hirohito was spared by the allies and remained fucking emperor in exchange of surrendering Japan to stop possible bloodsheds.

Is this fair? Perhaps no, but its what happen in politics, punishment is always seen as lesser in favour of results, a lesser evil is overlooked in exchange of a greater one, if you have something substantial to gain by forfeiting a punishment you do so. Again which is why Stalin wasn't questioned about his mass killings and slaughters or why there are drug dealers with millionaire lifestyles that are released with virtually no sentencing in exchange of getting the big boss or why Hitler's military ally was allowed to remain fucking emperor.

I reiterate: Sasuke's pardon is not a moral pardon, is a political pardon. He is not going to be pardoned at least by the other villages because they truly believe the man is not guilty, they will do so out of pure political interest.

This is how it works in real world and most likely how it works in Narutoverse, Results > Retribution.


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## Bender (May 24, 2013)

To further solidify the whole political pardon, the Narutoverse would be repeating the whole thing with Madara if they allowed themselves to still be butthurt about what Sasuke has done. 

Hell Hashirama even said the war would be meaningless if Sasuke turns into a new Madara.


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## DeK3iDE (May 24, 2013)

because this is a story where no one has to. Itachi didn't, Onoki didn't, the Konoha councilors didn't, Suna didn't....the list goes on and on. It's not like Sasuke is the first one who got off here


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## BringerOfCarnage (May 24, 2013)

He's kinda got the fact that Danzo and co. ordered the massacre of his family...

Also, he's got the support of Naruto, Hiruzen AND Hashirama. I doubt anybody is going to have the balls to stand up to that.

Finally, in the highly unlikely event that he does get sentenced, Itachi has probably sealed some kind of new uber Transcription Seal jutsu in him to trigger at such a moment


----------



## Perfection (May 24, 2013)

The victim blaming in this thread is disgusting.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2013)

Perfection said:


> The victim blaming in this thread is disgusting.


...since when is Sasuke a 'victim'? He's made his own choices.


----------



## Renyou (May 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...since when is Sasuke a 'victim'? He's made his own choices.


Maybe he's talking about Sasuke's victims.

Although Sasuke himself is a victim too, but only to a certain extent. Doesn't really excuse all of his actions.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...since when is Sasuke a 'victim'? He's made his own choices.



Just like his decision to become an orphan? Oh wait that was Konoha's doing.


----------



## 1Person (May 25, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Just like his decision to become an orphan? Oh wait that was Konoha's doing.



a person's decisions are often influenced by life experiences, that doesn't mean that they're allowed to get away with horrible decisions. Sasuke losing his family is no excuse for his behavior.
 Itachi suffered greatly at the hands of konoha yet stayed loyal till the bitter end.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 25, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Just like his decision to become an orphan? Oh wait that was Konoha's doing.


Naruto was an orphan too, look at how he turned his life around. Sasuke is still culpable of his own actions. He made his own choices. He chose to become a traitor to a village that honestly was being good to him. He chose to become a criminal when he joined Akatsuki. He chose to hand Akatsuki a key to their goal. He chose to attack the Kage Summit and murder 36 people who were just doing their job. He chose to attack all four Kages in his vendetta against Danzo. He killed Danzo, who was an elected official of Konoha. He chose to attempt to murder Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi several times. 

Its Sasuke's own fault he has no credibility. A single good deed doesn't make up for a lifetime of sinning.


----------



## Aazadan (May 25, 2013)

1Person said:


> a person's decisions are often influenced by life experiences, that doesn't mean that they're allowed to get away with horrible decisions. Sasuke losing his family is no excuse for his behavior.
> Itachi suffered greatly at the hands of konoha yet stayed loyal till the bitter end.



Itachi had something left to keep him going, and that was Sasuke.  Sasuke on the other hand was left with nothing.  Infact, had he stayed in Konoha he would never see justice for the massacre and after killing Itachi, Danzou would have probably had Sasuke and any witnesses (like team 7) murdered.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 25, 2013)

Aazadan said:


> Itachi had something left to keep him going, and that was Sasuke.  Sasuke on the other hand was left with nothing.  Infact, had he stayed in Konoha he would never see justice for the massacre and after killing Itachi, Danzou would have probably had Sasuke and any witnesses (like team 7) murdered.


Danzo had no reason to kill Sasuke during the years he was loyal to Konoha. His conditions were all met, and he didn't even attempt to kill Sasuke the minute Hiruzen died.

And Sasuke was turning his entire life around...and Itachi tore it down.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto was an orphan too, look at how he turned his life around. Sasuke is still culpable of his own actions. He made his own choices. He chose to become a traitor to a village that honestly was being good to him. He chose to become a criminal when he joined Akatsuki. He chose to hand Akatsuki a key to their goal. He chose to attack the Kage Summit and murder 36 people who were just doing their job. He chose to attack all four Kages in his vendetta against Danzo. He killed Danzo, who was an elected official of Konoha. He chose to attempt to murder Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi several times.


Yes Naruto too was an orphan, but as Sasuke put it.

"He was alone from the start"

But let's not pretend that Sasuke and Naruto's situation our birds of a feather.

I don't think Konoha gave the green light to kill Naruto's parents and place the blame on his beloved brother.

And you criticize him for joining Akatsuki, but I believe it was Obito not Konoha in which gave him the truth.

It was also Obito that gave Sasuke DANZO.

It was also Obito that gave him the EMS.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and Obito has done more for Sasuke over the course of a few arcs than Konoha the last four years of his life in the village.

And you continue with your nonsense regarding killing Danzo...

The same Danzo who was wearing sharingans on his arm like Christmas ornaments.  

Danzo was a shady figure who died a pathetic death in the end.

Blind, conceded, hypocritical, and helpless is how he died.

For Konoha my ass.

He wasn't for Konoha when allowed Nagato to essentially whip the village off the map without lifting a finger to assist.

And as I said before theirs nothing criminal in attempting to murder individuals who weren't exactly looking for him to catch up on old times.

You dub Sasuke a criminal, associate of Akatsuki, etc. etc.

But there's no ignoring the facts at the end of the day.

Sasuke's more for village EVEN WHILE CHOOSING TO OPPOSE IT, than anyone not named Naruto.



> Its Sasuke's own fault he has no credibility. A single good deed doesn't make up for a lifetime of sinning.


A single good deed? Let's look at his resume.

Killed Oro
Killed Deidara.

Assisted is stopping Edo Tensei
Partially responsible for reviving and SAVING THE ALLIANCES ASS BY BRINGING IN THE CARVERY.

I don't think that quantifies as a single good deed, good sir.


----------



## Orochibuto (May 25, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Killed Oro



How do you even dare to list that, when Sasuke revived him?! This is like if we put a police who jail a criminal as a good deed when said police freed him.

And don't try to come saying he revived him to help Konoha, because he didn't Sasuke just went along with it, he wanted answers and revived him for that.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Partially responsible for reviving and SAVING THE ALLIANCES ASS BY BRINGING IN THE CARVERY.



My ass, you are basically making the same statement as this troll thread:



Sasuke didn't knew the Kages would help, he had no interest in that, in fact for all he knew Orochimaru could have used the Kages to obliterate Konoha with zero resistance minus Hashirama.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (May 25, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> A single good deed? Let's look at his resume.
> 
> Killed Oro
> Killed Deidara.


He "killed" Orochimaru because Orochimaru wanted to take over his body. Deidara attacked him, so Sasuke was just defending himself when he defeated Deidara.

To the people in-universe that don't know his motives they're supposed good deeds(even then, him killing Itachi is is still revenge motivated) but from a factual standpoint they're not. Sasuke did those things because they benefited him, not in the best interest of others.



> Assisted is stopping Edo Tensei


Came about as coincidence of him running into Itachi whose goal was to end Edo Tensei. Considering Kabuto would have attacked Sasuke no matter if Sasuke wanted to fight him, there is self-defense as a strong motivator for assisting there. Sasuke decides to fight Kabuto before Kabuto makes any move to attack him(Kabuto even offers Sasuke an alliance) and his reasoning for doing so is that Kabuto is like Oro(wants to use Sasuke in his experiments) so he is therefore his enemy. 

He didn't go there with the intent to stop Edo Tensei nor was it a main factor in his decision to help fight against Kabuto.

His only legitimate "good deed" was deciding not to destroy Konoha and instead wants to help protect it. Hardly can be counted as one considering the non-traitorous members of the Leaf already decided to do that.


----------



## Seraphiel (May 25, 2013)

Naruto needs to get court marshaled for disobeying orders and "attacking" Iruka and crew, it's a serious offense and he can never become hokage whatever he does from after that.


This is the logic this thread is going by.


----------



## Rios (May 25, 2013)

Sure, punish him for saving their asses and the world they live in 

On a more serious note: Naruto will never punish him, unless of course beating him in a fair fight.


----------



## IDontHateYou (May 25, 2013)

what a joke thread. 

It seems like you're just mad that Sasuke is getting redeemed and you just cant handle it.. can you? 

Plenty of people have done countless evil shit in this manga. They are Ninja... not fucking Pre-K teachers. 

I mean... look at Gaara? The guy has killed countless people and was pretty much a sadistic little fuck until Naruto "saved" him.  

Did people forget the "Uchia Mental Illness"? That was Kishimoto's way of forshadowing Sasuke's redemption and basically letting him off the hook because Uchias have a mental condition. Pretty much everything Sasuke did after he found the truth out about his brother was the Uchia illness kicking in. Kishimoto said this... not me. 

Get over it...... I knew this thread was going to crop up as soon as I saw the Chapter.

Long live Team 7. Thank you very much.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 25, 2013)

Bender said:


> Which should put animosity towards people who collaborated with him and knew of his deeds but did nothing to stop him on a higher level of contempt.



The only ones whom would really know are ROOT, Orochimaru, and the elders. Although the former, he apparently had a death sentence on should they talk.



> I'm not but your post is implying that



Only if you were illiterate.



> Hating Konoha even though or several centuries the policy towards the Uchiha didn't change, when they were coming to decision Danzo hijacked discussion and went "fuck negotiations" then towards the "we should wipe them all the fuck out" direction. Moreover Hiruzen and everyone else meekly agreed with him even though negotiation is possible. Danzo kissing Tobirama's ass cheeks wanted to go that direction even though it is obnoxiously wrong in every possible way.



This is incorrect. It was a span of decades that led up to the incident, Danzo declared they should kill them, but Sarutobi disagreed and wanted to negotiate with them, but those negotiations failed. Time was running out, and he had taken Shisui's eye to ensure that no other way could be reached but eradication, which he had Itachi agree to. It really is redundant to keep going over what Danzo had done because I'm not denying Danzo's nature or the nature of his actions. 



> Seriously who wouldn't want to hate them? The only thing that was known about most of the leaders and its government were the positives no one had known any deals that happened behind doors. Those like the rookie nine were living ignorant of the truth, same with other Konoha citizens so that of course would piss a sole survivor of the clan.



The elders and Danzo deserve to be hated, the village doesn't. It really is no different from the countries we live in, and how people in power would conduct underhanded deals in either some lust for power or misguided idea of it being for the greater good. It's those people that would and should, be held responsible, not those individuals that had no hand in it. Sasuke's desire to destroy Konoha had no justification. 



> However, lets get something straight, I'm not at all saying I agree with Sasuke's action. I am saying however that his anger towards them (especially when the madness gene hijacks logic) his decision of annihilating Konoha is predictable.



There is no 'madness gene', it is amazing how you fans are often the ones with the worst grasp on the character. The Uchiha have an ideological hurdle, a sentiment passed down from their progenitor just as the Senju do. The genetics lie in that trauma means power for them, which means you have generations and generations that rely on it to become powerful; this is what breeds the 'curse' of hatred. The power doesn't cause the trauma, it is its product. 



> Dude, when you said that my mom laughs, the person I'm talking to on AIM laughed.
> 
> Self-defense applies to everyone. By the logic you're presenting, I'm not allowed to beat the living crap out of someone who tries to shank me in prison.



Self-defense doesn't apply to a criminal that attacks law enforcement which is the equivalent to what Sasuke did. So your argument, Mr. Criminal Justice, was inherently flawed. If you went to any sovereign nation and threatened to kill a foreign diplomat what do you think would happen? 



> Danzo's list of crimes run deeper than Sasuke's do. Not only did he get mixed in affairs with a tyrant like Hanzo, he tried to take Ao's Byakugan (kill him too IIRC), made deals that weren't officially approved of.



Redundant to go over this, because one, we're not discussing Danzo; and second, I don't deny his crimes. He dug his own grave. 



> The blame I'm placing on Danzo's shoulder is for screwing the Ame-orphans, underhanded schemes, being an asshole towards the hokage, and pushing Itachi into a corner.



He is completely a scumbag, I get it. I'm not arguing to the contrary, or making him any less of one. 



> Not just the means but the ripples they had. Hell, you can even call him responsible for Pain existing at all. Because of the assistance he lent Hanzo we got the guy who all but wrecked the shit out of Konoha. And what did Danzo do when Konoha was attacked? He went underground with his followers. He shouldn't have been acknowledged as a Hokage. Like at all.



He shouldn't have, the way he managed to become one was contrived, but like I stated, people were completely unaware of the true nature of his deeds. He was disgraced after fleeing the Summit however.


----------



## Bontakun (May 25, 2013)

Crime, schmime. When you successfully pull off a revolution, the old laws go out the window, and you can grant yourself immunity for small incidences you may have needed to cause along the way.

Sasuke is going to overturn the whole system with a revolution. His attack will simply become attacks on the "old regime" which now has no legal power. So he gets off scott free


----------



## Olympian (May 25, 2013)

There`s no victim blaming, there`s a political situation that will have to be benefitial to both parties. 

That doesn`t exclude that said "victim" (Stalin) was a murderer as well.


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## Csdabest (May 25, 2013)

Danzo would have killed Sasuke for his Mangekyo when he awoken it. He stole Shisui eye from him when he was trying to help the village and use it to end the Massacre. Just shows that Danzo wanted Uchiha dead for his own benefit


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## Yuna (May 25, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Danzo would have killed Sasuke for his Mangekyo when he awoken it. He stole Shisui eye from him when he was trying to help the village and use it to end the Massacre. Just shows that Danzo wanted Uchiha dead for his own benefit


What the fuck does this have to do with anything?

Also, the whole "Shisui tried to end it all" plotline is very vague. If he'd just waltzed up to Fugaku and Koto Amatsukami'd him into slowly dismantling the coup, how the fuck would Danzou have known or been able to stop him in time?

It's possible Shisui intended to Koto Amatsukami the village elders or Danzou to buy more time or have them concede to the Uchiha because he preferred to to the coup/civil war.


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## Scarlet Ammo (May 25, 2013)

Because he's a teenager and the youth are never punished for their crimes after turning good. Same goes for they adults, but they always commit suicide/self sacrifice before that can happen. 

Notable adult self sacrifices/suicides of villains:
Sasori
Deidara
Itachi
Kisame
Pain
Konan (sorta)
Danzo
*empty spot for Obito to fill*

Young characters that are evil and die:
...
sound people from part 1 (back when every enemy except pedomaru was a kid)
...

Young characters that are evil and turn good:
Gaara (pimped up to kazekage despite killing the innocent)
*void spot for Sasuke*


----------



## Edo Madara (May 25, 2013)

LOL this is shonen manga, do you think how many former villains that ever get punishment for what they done in shonen ?


----------



## pimpnamedslipback (May 25, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.
> 
> Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for. A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.
> 
> Sasuke might have betrayed his village, but if anything, the village and the ninja system were the ones that betrayed him first.


lol? that doesn't make his crimes passable...
no, sasuke does not get a pass...that hokage bullshit is a joke, he'd be lucky to squeeze his away out of jail


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## vagnard (May 25, 2013)

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if even Oro is pardoned by Konoha at the end of the war


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 25, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> How do you even dare to list that, when Sasuke revived him?! This is like if we put a police who jail a criminal as a good deed when said police freed him.


But Sasuke reviving Oro saved the alliance mate.

You do know how our criminal system works right?

A person facing an extensive sentence is capable of reducing it by helping to catch a bigger fish.

Sasuke killed Oro when he was a threat to Konoha, and revived him when he was he only one capable of saving their buts.

Oro's freedom saved the alliance.

Do not tell half truths and expect to come out of a conversation with Iphr0z3nI smelling good.

Ain't that right Supersaiyan12?




> And don't try to come saying he revived him to help Konoha, because he didn't Sasuke just went along with it, he wanted answers and revived him for that.


No, he didn't revive him with the intent of helping Konoha.

As he didn't kill Oro, Deidara, or white Zetsu with the intent of helping Konoha either...

As he didn't assist Itachi in stopping Edo Tensei with the intent of helping the alliance.

Such was the result, and the result is the only thing that matter mate.



> My ass, you are basically making the same statement as this troll thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke didn't knew the Kages would help, he had no interest in that, in fact for all he knew Orochimaru could have used the Kages to obliterate Konoha with zero resistance minus Hashirama.


And you're ignoring the only thing that matters....Results.

At the end of the day Sasuke and Oro are going to be hero's of Konoha not because such was their intent, but such is how things simply panned out.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> He "killed" Orochimaru because Orochimaru wanted to take over his body. Deidara attacked him, so Sasuke was just defending himself when he defeated Deidara.


And all that proved to be beneficial to Konoha, right?



> To the people in-universe that don't know his motives they're supposed good deeds(even then, him killing Itachi is is still revenge motivated) but from a factual standpoint they're not. Sasuke did those things because they benefited him, not in the best interest of others.


Their good deeds regardless because the result is the only thing that matters.

Sasuke did those thing because they benefited him, yes.

But they also benefited Konoha as well because benefited from their deaths.

And you know what, they didn't even need to lift a finger to do it.



> Came about as coincidence of him running into Itachi whose goal was to end Edo Tensei. Considering Kabuto would have attacked Sasuke no matter if Sasuke wanted to fight him, there is self-defense as a strong motivator for assisting there. Sasuke decides to fight Kabuto before Kabuto makes any move to attack him(Kabuto even offers Sasuke an alliance) and his reasoning for doing so is that Kabuto is like Oro(wants to use Sasuke in his experiments) so he is therefore his enemy.


Again results, mate.

What are the results.

Did Konoha benefit from Sasuke's actions again, so whats the issue.



> He didn't go there with the intent to stop Edo Tensei nor was it a main factor in his decision to help fight against Kabuto.


See above.



> His only legitimate "good deed" was deciding not to destroy Konoha and instead wants to help protect it. Hardly can be counted as one considering the non-traitorous members of the Leaf already decided to do that.


Only legitimate one A?

Well Sasuke's decision to not destroy Konoha likely wasn't because he had a new found opinion of the village, mate.

But of his growing feelings regarding Itachi.

He simply values Itachi's life more, and Itachi's life and legacy is Konoha.

And the non-traitorous members of the leaf aren't going to get the results the traitorous members are, aren't they.


----------



## KingBoo (May 25, 2013)

why doesn't the cloud village get punished for wanting the byakugan?
why doesn't the gnome's village get punished for hiring the terrorist group akatsuki?
why doesn't konohoa get punished for ordering the hit on the uchiha?


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## Seto Kaiba (May 25, 2013)

Why do people keep making these stupid comparisons? What they did was wrong, and should be held accountable but realize that Sasuke acted as an individual. The actions can be more easily zeroed in on him.


----------



## Mateush (May 25, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Why do people keep making these stupid comparisons? What they did was wrong, and should be held accountable but realize that Sasuke acted as an individual. The actions can be more easily zeroed in on him.



Right, the problem is most don't know the truth about Itachi and Konoha. If all will learn the truth, then it would be quite chaotic, haha.


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## doubletongue (May 25, 2013)

he will get community service... or every D-rank mission in the village for six months. basically the same thing.


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## Bender (May 25, 2013)

KingBoo said:


> why doesn't the cloud village get punished for wanting the byakugan?
> why doesn't the gnome's village get punished for hiring the terrorist group akatsuki?
> why doesn't konohoa get punished for ordering the hit on the uchiha?



This

Shit why doesn't Baki be punished for killing Hayate

Or the entirety of the village of sand for allying with Orochimaru


@Seto Kaiba

If you understand that Danzo is a scumbag you would stop saying that killing him was something bad when the dude was a complete douche and you'd know he wasn't officially acknowledged as a hokage.


Minus Danzo
 if you want to get on sasuke's case for anything else than these make more sense

-killing the fodder Samurai
-Attempt at capturing Bee
-Leaving the village

Of the three crimes he committed he's at most going to be pnished for the killing the fodder since Bee is almost as forgiving as Naruto (since he was so forgiving to Motoi for trying to kill him), and he has returned to being a leaf-nin.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (May 26, 2013)

People in this thread seem to not understand the differences between the actions of a nation and those of an individual, the actions of nations at war versus those of an international criminal. 

People just love a Karma Houdini I suppose.


----------



## FitzChivalry (May 26, 2013)

Excellent question. _This _should have been the question asked instead of whether or not he'll become Hokage (no) or whether he deserves to be one (no). In the real world, he would never be forgiven for his crimes and he would never be able to outrun this horrendous reputation and heinous things he's done. Though it's Shounen, and he did directly influence the act that brought the Hokages to the war, turning again the tide of war in favor of the alliance. He deserves credit for this. So, for that, the fact that this is Shounen, and his connection to another guy in Naruto who will emerge a major hero, he will eventually be largely forgiven, probably even pardoned. But it should be a long hard road to all of that happening. It's hard to come back from burning the hell out of every bridge you've ever forged with everyone in the shinobi world, and breaking as many laws as he did.

There is no precedent for a missing-nin getting a free pass. All those types stay in exile until death.


----------



## kzk (May 26, 2013)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> How is murdering Danzo a crime?  Hell they probably would of done it anyway if Sasuke hadn't.



That's kind of what I was thinking.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 26, 2013)

Bender said:


> If you understand that Danzo is a scumbag you would stop saying that killing him was something bad when the dude was a complete douche and you'd know he wasn't officially acknowledged as a hokage.



I didn't say it was something bad, Mr. Illiterate. 



> Minus Danzo
> if you want to get on sasuke's case for anything else than these make more sense
> 
> -killing the fodder Samurai
> ...



My god. That's exactly what I've been getting on him about! Jesus Christ, you *don't* read.



> Of the three crimes he committed he's at most going to be pnished for the killing the fodder since Bee is almost as forgiving as Naruto (since he was so forgiving to Motoi for trying to kill him), and he has returned to being a leaf-nin.



He has taken actions against their national interests, and Kumo almost went to war over what he did to Bee.


----------



## Revolution (May 26, 2013)

Danzo commited war crimes no one knows about.

Bee escaped.

Sasuke freed many from Orochimaru's clutches.  

Sasuke was manipulated into attacking the Kage summit and was not conscious when he was on the shoulder of the man who waged war against the world.

The only crimes of Sasuke are killing the Iron Country samurai and the guards of Bees island.  Gaara was more brutal and murderous in his history.


----------



## CandleGuy (May 26, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Why do people keep making these stupid comparisons? What they did was wrong, and should be held accountable but realize that Sasuke acted as an individual. The actions can be more easily zeroed in on him.



And the comparisons themselves are wrong, how can people still say "konoha" ordered the Uchi hit with a straight face. 

People are basically saying because there's been a lack of justice in the past more lack of justice should continue for Sasuke's sake.

Shit makes no sense. 

You can easily argue you can start fixing the ninja system (the lack of justice) by having ninja war trials and punishing folk. If people don't think Sasuke would need to stand trial they're nuts


----------



## BlinkST (May 28, 2013)

CandleGuy said:


> And the comparisons themselves are wrong, how can people still say "konoha" ordered the Uchi hit with a straight face.


Because that's just what the manga says? 




Even Sasuke went to greater lengths because he didn't *want* to believe it, but it's an unavoidable truth that Konohagakure had been built on a "peace" based on the sacrifices of smaller people.  




This hypocrisy issue with Konohagakure is of course, nothing new, and led to the village's destruction once already.




But these things are not *known* by the other villagers, because Itachi took one *hell* of a bullet for the village. And you can only imagine what would happen if that kind of dirt was a bit more privy to the other villagers.  






The difference between those villagers and Sasuke, is that he actually *knows* the village's wrongdoings, and vows to *change* it instead of allowing the governing body to keep *hiding* it.


----------



## Overhaul (May 29, 2013)

Sasuke could use a spanking.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 20, 2013)

Is this the worst thread ever, or is this just par for the course in this void of common sense and intelligence?


----------



## Scarlet Ammo (Sep 20, 2013)

Sasuke literally threatened to destroy Konoha and killed Danzo. Even if Danzo was corrupt, he's a representative of Konoha and that makes Sasuke not only a missing nin but a murderous terrorist. He also killed Samurai.

Just because he fights along side people in a war doesn't mean he should be pardoned. (though I know Kishi is going to do that)  

A terrorist helping fight another terrorist doesn't excuse the crime of murder, even if the help saved lives. At most, it could reduce the sentence.

Being in prison? Good.

Getting probation? Er...

Being set free? No.

Becoming Hokage? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA 


[sp]What a load of bull. But we all know Kishi is going to make it happen simply because Sasuke isn't an adult. He did the same stupid thing with Gaara. [/sp]


----------



## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Sep 20, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Is this the worst thread ever, or is this just par for the course in this void of common sense and intelligence?



...lol You literally brought back an old ass thread by saying "This is the worst thread ever"

Good job buddy, good job.


----------



## Csdabest (Sep 20, 2013)

BlinkST said:


> Because that's just what the manga says?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When it comes to proving people wrong and making an argument. I am Pikachu and you are Raichu lol. I swear you explain everything better than I ever could. Especially since you take the time to actually dig up panels. Good shit. But this pretty much explains everything. Major Kudos.

Sasuke has his international crimes of attacking a nations jin and Trespassing on Iron Country political grounds which resulted in multiple deaths. But hey. Deaths happen and it seems it the last thing a Village is worried about. Most his crimes are against Konoha in which he need sto worry about. But then...They arent that serious. He became a missing nin. He has  leaked any info and the village has given permission to leave the vllage. Tsunade and Jiraiya. If the truth gets out Sasuke has a clean slate. Bar Killing Itachi. Sasuke has.

1. Took down Orochimaru organization and freed all his prisoners.
2. Killed Deidara who was an international terrorist
3. Killed Danzo who is responsible for countless shady businesses in the shinobi world. Even as going as far to destroy certain surrounding ninja clans and smaller villages.
4. Aided in Defeating Kabuto and stopping the Edo Tensei Army. 
5. Bringing in the Legendary Kages, reviving the current Kages(Oro is Sasuke bitch) and Saving the alliance.

Sasuke good deeds outweigh his bad deeds greatly. And Thats w/o the Truth of the uchiha massacre being revealed. Attacking Kumo and Tresspassing on Kage Summit and being a missing nin. Is easily outweighed by Sasuke Current actions in the war. He is Golden


----------



## Krippy (Sep 20, 2013)

because kishi


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 20, 2013)

Ninja Shadow Warrior said:


> ...lol You literally brought back an old ass thread by saying "This is the worst thread ever"
> 
> Good job buddy, good job.



I'm sorry, I am new to this whole "Sasuke is a saint who deserves our love and forrgiveness" mentality. 

This thread is kinda just nauseating on a moral level and insulting on an intellectual levell. "Danzo was a jerk! That justifies Sasuke nearly killing people who had nothing to do with him and attacking a summit of world leaders."

Ignoring the fact Sasuke was completely in the wrong from a moral point of view, he was completely in the wrong from a legal perspective, and that is objective fact. He was a missing niin who invaded a foreign land and attacked without provocation He would have killed the Raikage if not for Gaara's intervention.
And before oe o the mental deficients in this thread pops up to say "wah wah wha, they attacked first", please remember this was a top secret meeting of five of the most important people in the world and all anyone knew about Sasuke was that he was working for a terrorist organiztion that had killed the Kazekage and abducted the brother of the Raikage. Are you seriously saying they should have just stood aside and held Sasuke in good faith that he'd only fight Danzo? Morons.

And whatever you think about Danzo, he was still the Hokage at the time. I don't recall it being suddenly okay to bump off the president just because you have some grievance with him. 

The law exists, in both reality and in Naruto, not to enforce morality, but to enforce order. Sasuke violently and unnecessarily violated that order out of purely selfish gains. What's more, he was aiding a criminal and he would have handed over a deadly weapon to said criminal if not for Danzo's last second sacrifice.

Sasuke committed crimes. That is a fact and this entire thread is nothing more than people misunderstanding what a crime really is.


----------



## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Sep 20, 2013)

I am with you on all of those points.


----------



## Frostman (Sep 20, 2013)

Even if Sasuke is responsible all these crimes. Who is going to prosecute him? Who is going to testify? How would they go about proving it? Right now Sasuke is way to valuable, so i doubt anyone with even bother. 

Expecting law and order in a world that teaches children how to murder at the age of 6.LULz


----------



## Kanga (Sep 20, 2013)

^ 
^

The Kages could easily testify, and prove his attack on the summit (A losing his arm to Sasuke). Mifune could also testify on the killing of his men by Sasuke (proof being the dead bodies). The two cloud fodders who witnessed Sasuke's attack on Killer B could also testify as well.



How they would go about prosecuting him? I don't know. But I'm sure they have a system installed to handle these kind of issues, we just haven't seen it yet.

I honestly want these crimes to be addressed in some manner.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Sep 20, 2013)

i don't agree with all of OP's points, but _Naruto_, isn't, nor has it ever been, a story where a criminal is made to be subject for judicial punishment. I don't see it starting now because Tsunade or the Gokage as a whole will let it slide once they see him fighting on their side.


----------



## mlc818 (Sep 20, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I hope  shuts this thread up.
> 
> Sasuke has done terrible things, but none among them actually resulted to any significant harm worthy to be vilified for. A fourth Shinobi World War would've still occurred. More to that he still has the chance to redeem himself in this arc depending on the weight of his contribution towards defeating the enemies, following his and Itachi's victory against Kabuto, nonetheless.
> 
> ...



So much this.  Naruto is essentially tasked with reforming or ending the ninja system, and that system is what created people like Zabuza and Itachi and Sasuke and Obito.  Naruto will convince people to spare Sasuke or leave Sasuke to him, because Sasuke's hate and actions were sparked by the injustice of the prior system.  Also Sasuke really hasn't done very many evil things other than foolishly aiding Tobi due to his grudge prior to helping save the world from Juubi Obito.  He is still redeemable even without death, as long as Naruto vouches for him to the rest of the world. (Naruto is essentially proving himself to be the next Hashirama/RS/savior, so even if Sasuke isn't reformed it's very likely that the villages/shinobi will trust Naruto to deal with any threat from Sasuke's beliefs)


----------



## UzumakiMAAKU (Sep 21, 2013)

Sasuke was considered an international criminal. Criminals tend to be punished... so there you go.

I don't care if he's punished or not, but if he is, it's warranted and that's a fact.


----------



## Jeαnne (Sep 21, 2013)

i wanna see they manage to do it


----------



## Xeros (Sep 21, 2013)

[QUOTEHe murdered Danzo, attempted to kill Kakashi and Sakura, helped Obito capture part of the 8 tails which is a direct war crime against not only Konoha but the world, attempted to murder Naruto, defected from the village, conspired with Orochimaru, and attacked the 5 kage while murdering a handful of Samurai.][/QUOTE]

1) Danzo actually killed himself
2) Sakura tried to kill him first
3) He failed the 8 Tails capture 
4) He wanted to see how Naruto would react 
5) For power
6) Killed Orochimaru since he is his enemy
7) Samurai fodders 
8) He was on self-def mode


----------



## Krippy (Sep 21, 2013)

attempted kidnapping, murder, attempted murder, criminal trespass, assassination, attempted assassination, aggravated assault w/ grievous bodily harm, criminal conspiracy, terrorism/terroristic threats 

just a few of the charges he would be facing if he actually went to court irl  but like others have said, this isn't a verse that relies on a judicial system. Besides I'm pretty sure If I had all these charges on my head and helped stop the end of the world Obama would give me a full pardon for all this shit

sad to say


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 21, 2013)

For the last time, Sasuke killed Danzo.

"That jutsu would have sucked you into his corpse to die with him.... He must have had it set to go off when he died."

He didn't blow himself up like Deidara did, he had a failsafe in place should he ever be murdered by someone ie. Sasuke murdered him.


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (Sep 21, 2013)

ITT: Attempted murder isn't a big deal and should not be punished.


----------



## Big Bob (Sep 21, 2013)

Everyone will probably forgive him for helping defeat Obito or something.


----------



## lathia (Sep 21, 2013)

I was going to say because of Itachi's sacrifice, but that shit is laughable considering Itachi is the reason Sasuke turned out like he did. I guess the blame could be shifted to Obito/Oro. Then again, Oro is currently a slithering butler. 

Kishi


----------



## Revolution (Sep 21, 2013)

I could not pass "He killed Danzo" because He saved the world from Danzo!


----------



## Garcher (Sep 21, 2013)

They rather should built a gigantic statue of Itachi made of gold. He's the true god and if they pray in front of the statue he will always redeem them from all bad things

don't care about Sasgay.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 21, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> I could not pass "He killed Danzo" because He saved the world from Danzo!



Oh I get it. So when the Uchihas are wiped out as a preempative measure, it's evil. But killing Danzo is not evil even though it's founded on the same principle of preemptive strike. 

Why don't we all just time travel and kill baby Madara.


----------



## Raiden (Sep 21, 2013)

Lmao it would be interesting if he actually got put in prison, and that somehow sets the stage for the last fight. Somebody did ask the other day what would happen in another arc.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Sep 21, 2013)

Krippy said:


> attempted kidnapping, murder, attempted murder, criminal trespass, assassination, attempted assassination, aggravated assault w/ grievous bodily harm, criminal conspiracy, terrorism/terroristic threats
> 
> just a few of the charges he would be facing if he actually went to court irl  but like others have said, this isn't a verse that relies on a judicial system. Besides I'm pretty sure If I had all these charges on my head and helped stop the end of the world Obama would give me a full pardon for all this shit
> 
> sad to say



Actually, you'd likely be killed. Alliances are always conditional.


----------



## Hero (Sep 21, 2013)

He deserves to be punished and will be so. If he wasn't, it wouldn't make any sense.


----------



## Baroxio (Sep 21, 2013)

Despite his recent uselessness, Sasuke is a primary component when it comes to *saving the World.*

Who in their right minds will go, wow, Sasuke, you're absurdly powerful and you just saved the entire world, but that one guy you killed who was pretty much evil, nobody liked, ordered the death of your entire Clan, did many traitorus acts himself and essentially became an international traitor right before you killed him, yeah, you gotta go to ninja-jail for it. 

Seriously, aside from the fact that saving the world >>>>>>> killing some dude, the only person who would even be able to enforce any such sentence on EoS Sasuke would be EoS Naruto himself, and we all know that ain't ever gonna happen. 

Politics wise, Sasuke could easily claim asylum in literally any other ninja village and they would easily take him in as a powerful military power. If you think Konoha as a whole is going to do anything other than suck Sasuke's dick you're vastly mistaken with a fairly childish mindset.

It's like nobody here has ever heard of the concept of a Presidential Pardon.


----------



## vagnard (Sep 21, 2013)

Because this manga doesn't make sense. 

Naruto will TNJ the world into everyone loving each other like a ninja Jesus.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Sep 21, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Because this manga doesn't make sense.
> 
> Naruto will TNJ the world into everyone loving each other like a ninja Jesus.



Didn't he already? Kind of?

He made everyone in the Alliance feel how he felt and still does about Sasuke. My, my... What if not only Kurama's chakra, but also Nardo's feelingz shall stay with the shinobi army forever?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Sep 21, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Despite his recent uselessness, Sasuke is a primary component when it comes to *saving the World.*
> 
> Who in their right minds will go, wow, Sasuke, you're absurdly powerful and you just saved the entire world, but that one guy you killed who was pretty much evil, nobody liked, ordered the death of your entire Clan, did many traitorus acts himself and essentially became an international traitor right before you killed him, yeah, you gotta go to ninja-jail for it.
> 
> ...



Clearly you haven't, because it is nowhere near that simplistic. It can be argued that as a former accomplice that he holds responsibility for the calamity in the first place, and should be held responsible for his part in the operation. Not to mention, his clearly unstable nature and fickle alliances make him a risky asset to keep around.


----------



## Gunners (Sep 21, 2013)

He should be disciplined but at the end of the arc they will probably wipe the slate clean for all of the bad of shit that's happened in the past. When I see people comment in these threads I realise how disconnected some people are. Cleaning up a mess you helped create doesn't absolve you of liability.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Sep 21, 2013)

oh seriously ? its just a manga it aint that serious...

lets see... why shouldnt Gaara receive punishment for his crimes ? Wigga became Kazekage. OOP. 
why shouldnt Zabuza and Haku receive punishment for their crimes ? Oh they died , so they paid. 
why shouldnt KYUUBI receive punishment for his crimes ? this MF fox destroyed the village if it wasnt for Minato and he paid the price. 
why shouldnt OBITO receive punishment for his crimes ? PLS ANSWER THAT.


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## Gunners (Sep 21, 2013)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> oh seriously ? its just a manga it aint that serious...
> 
> lets see... why shouldnt Gaara receive punishment for his crimes ? Wigga became Kazekage. OOP.
> why shouldnt Zabuza and Haku receive punishment for their crimes ? Oh they died , so they paid.
> ...



Gaara= Diminished responsibility and age. 

Zabuza and Haku, as you said, died. 

Kyuubi= Was controlled by Obito, has been imprisoned for 17 years. Time would also be deducted for the time he spend inside of Mito and Kushina, seeing as he was imprisoned without doing anything. 

Obito should be punished and will probably end up dead.


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## SLB (Sep 21, 2013)

Sasuke had a direct hand in this juubi destruction. No amount of damage control is going to clear that. He aided a criminal organization and gave them a necessary piece to their "I'm a fuck you over" puzzle. 

But honestly, this is fiction so... I'm cool as long as the kid at least wants redemption. This guy shows no remorse for anything he's done, so fuck him. I'd be fine with whatever Kishi tries with him as long as he wants the redemption and works for it.


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## PlasmaFear (Sep 21, 2013)

The only people that can stop Sasuke is the 1st, 2nd, 4th, Madara, Obito, and Naruto. Remove the edo and if Obito is killed. Naruto wont want Sasuke in prison cause thats his rivsl/brother. So if the 5 kages even try to come at Sasuke hrll force their head up eachother ass. I kept the 3rd out because he sucks imo


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## Mr. sickVisionz (Sep 21, 2013)

Skywalker said:


> Hopefully they'll be some sort of punishment, if all his past crimes get tossed out the window now that'd be idiotic.



Gaara did similar stuff and his punishment was that they made him the president of his village.

Sasuke hasn't done much wrong outside of killing some Samurai and attacking Bee.  Is attacking Bee even a crime?  Ninjas kill Ninjas all the time and while they seek vengeance, I haven't seen too many of them actually be called criminals.

Plus, he's done a lot of good.  Defeated S-rank ninja Orochimaru.  Defeated S-rank genociding war criminal Itachi, defeated S-rank war criminal Deidara.  Defeat crooked Kage and war criminal Danzo who had been caught conducting espionage at the Kage U.N.  Now he's fighting side-by-side with Naruto to save the ninja world.  He will be forgiven or at the least, treated like Itachi was, where he's labeled a criminal but nobody from any village ever tries to capture him.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 21, 2013)

Gaara was pretty much not guilty by reason of insanity. He talked to people who weren't there and he was raised in an environment where people on the outside wanted to kill him while on the inside he was being assaulted by a murderous demon.

Sasuke was not insane when he committed his actions. He was just selfish.


----------



## Sifus (Sep 21, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Is this the worst thread ever, or is this just par for the course in this void of common sense and intelligence?



If its so bad why the fuck did you bumb it?.


----------



## Sifus (Sep 21, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Actually, you'd likely be killed. Alliances are always conditional.



I see you don't know what happened to German scientist after  WW2


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## Blu-ray (Sep 22, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Gaara was pretty much not guilty by reason of insanity. He talked to people who weren't there and he was raised in an environment where people on the outside wanted to kill him while on the inside he was being assaulted by a murderous demon.
> 
> Sasuke was not insane when he committed his actions. He was just selfish.



Sasuke was suffering from the Uchiha mental illness, so all of his actions are excused, just like Gaara's.  I never thought I'd be so happy Kishi could introduce that thing. Now my dear Sasuke can murder children, rape virgin 4 year old girls, and it shall all be excused. Hurray!

But seriously, Gaara was sane. Probably even more than Sasuke. If he was truly insane talk no jutsu would not have worked, unless it is capable of curing mental diseases. I don't see why he should be pardoned without question and not Sasuke. Hell, why should Sasuke be punished when no one else in this manga is. Look at all the atrocities the five great nations did. Sasuke is a saint compared to these people.


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## Revolution (Sep 22, 2013)

The thought of Sasuke in chains turns me the fuck on!

[sp][/sp]


----------



## Kanga (Sep 22, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> The thought of Sasuke in chains turns me the fuck on!


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Sep 22, 2013)

Konoha jailed Karin just by being with Akatsuki and Oro. She didn't even kill anyone to their knowledge and yet they locked her up in a cell. Sasuke's done far worse than Karin and even more so he's actively tried to kill Konoha ninjas and other shinobi in the alliance. Sasuke actively tried to capture Killer Bee and he went ahead and attacked all the Kages, hell he killed the Interim Hokage Danzou. In theory Sasuke needs to be executed for his crimes. 

But we know that won't happen, he will be given a pardon scott free all because of one man, Uzumaki Naruto. Naruto will talk to everyone and Sasuke will be left alone. Without Naruto Sasuke is fucked. It's funny because this is the same man people say can be the Hokage. The reality is that Sasuke's an international criminal on the highest level. He needs to be killed. Fortunately for him Naruto's there to save him.


----------



## Tony Lou (Sep 22, 2013)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Konoha jailed Karin just by being with Akatsuki and Oro. She didn't even kill anyone to their knowledge and yet they locked her up in a cell. Sasuke's done far worse than Karin and even more so he's actively tried to kill Konoha ninjas and other shinobi in the alliance. Sasuke actively tried to capture Killer Bee and he went ahead and attacked all the Kages, hell he killed the Interim Hokage Danzou. In theory Sasuke needs to be executed for his crimes.
> 
> But we know that won't happen, he will be given a pardon scott free all because of one man, Uzumaki Naruto. Naruto will talk to everyone and Sasuke will be left alone. Without Naruto Sasuke is fucked. It's funny because this is the same man people say can be the Hokage. The reality is that Sasuke's an international criminal on the highest level. He needs to be killed. Fortunately for him Naruto's there to save him.



Eh, very few people are capable of actually killing him. Sasuke can handle the missing nin life.

But I agree, Naruto telling them to forgive Sasuke is all it should take. After all, no character ever questions him, and in the rare moments they do, it doesn't last long.


----------



## Jeαnne (Sep 22, 2013)

i imagine what Sasuke would answer to this thread 




would be cool if Sasuke remained a missing nin, with ninjas all around the world trying to kill him and failing miserably , he would become a legend for surviving, biggest bounty in history.


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## Sifus (Sep 22, 2013)

Lets be honest people.  Sasuke deserves to be punished but if your expecting it to actually happen your simply deluding yourself. Outside of Hashirama and Naruto, Sasuke is debatably one of the strongest shinobi the alliance has. The only logical way for Sasuke to pay for his crimes is if he wants to. No one is going to force him into chains and if they try Sasuke will merely kill said person.


----------



## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Sep 22, 2013)

Sifus said:


> *Lets be honest people.  Sasuke deserves to be punished but if your expecting it to actually happen your simply deluding yourself.* Outside of Hashirama and Naruto, Sasuke is debatably one of the strongest shinobi the alliance has. The only logical way for Sasuke to pay for his crimes is if he wants to. *No one is going to force him into chains and if they try Sasuke will merely kill said person*.



I agree with you. He has done things that deserve real punishment of some sort. I'm not sure what the Naruto world would even consider a righteous judgement for his crimes though. 

As far as "who would punish him?" I agree with you that he would probably try to kill whoever tried, or die trying.


----------



## Revolution (Sep 22, 2013)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Konoha jailed Karin just by being with Akatsuki and Oro. She didn't even kill anyone to their knowledge and yet they locked her up in a cell. Sasuke's done far worse than Karin and even more so he's actively tried to kill Konoha ninjas and other shinobi in the alliance. Sasuke actively tried to capture Killer Bee and he went ahead and attacked all the Kages, hell he killed the Interim Hokage Danzou. In theory Sasuke needs to be executed for his crimes.
> 
> But we know that won't happen, he will be given a pardon scott free all because of one man, Uzumaki Naruto. Naruto will talk to everyone and Sasuke will be left alone. Without Naruto Sasuke is fucked. It's funny because this is the same man people say can be the Hokage. The reality is that Sasuke's an international criminal on the highest level. He needs to be killed. Fortunately for him Naruto's there to save him.



And Sasuke wants to cut Naruto. . . 



Jeαnne said:


> i imagine what Sasuke would answer to this thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem is he wants to restore his clans' honor.  His challenge is getting that done with everything he has done in recent months combined with Madara and Obito being Uchiha.  Sasuke has as much weight on his shoulders as Naruto.


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## ch1p (Sep 22, 2013)

There is Cordelia's post, which is precisely what I've always thought. 

Sasuke as a... 'villain' (I guess) has done a lot of good, even if his intentions weren't the best. The bad Sasuke has done is mostly inconsequential. So Sasuke fled the Leaf and joined Orochimaru. So Sasuke crashed the Kage's party. So Sasuke tried to murder a few named ninjas and failed. What's the impact of any of this? Nothing.

Of course people worried about pride and fairness will be all over this, because they want the manga to project their IRL moralities. However, the Naruto universe cares about results over everything else. Those are more results in favour of Sasuke then against him. So really, what's he gonna be accused with? Things he never followed through? The only thing people can really peg against him are the samurai. Assuming they're really dead, Kishi established them as neutral and folding to the Leaf once in the past. They're not going to ask for Sasuke's head. They'll probably say 'we're sorry sasuke-sama, not even our corpses are worthy. Kishimoto paved Sasuke's evil ways that way for a reason. This was already clear with all the excuses Sasuke was given to live, this became even more in hindsight after most of the series has run its course.

I doubt Sasuke is even going to be put in the doghouse. Like I said, results are what matters most in that universe, so what's someone like Sasuke going to do locked up? Someone who is one of the most powerful ninja alive and whose goals is to protect the village? At most, he's gonna be sent into dangerous missions, that would be his punishment. Furthermore, Sasuke's the last of the Uchiha. They're not going to kill him, unless they've already discovered how to make testube babies.

To say nothing on Sasuke allowing anyone to even touch his duck butt hair with threatening intentions. Good luck in getting him to drop his head for the taking. Lol, _Sasuke_.

Be real, none of this matters. The guy was seen being cheered on by the alliance about ten chapters ago. None of what I've already mentioned is going to matter. Sasuke just helped them in the final fight. Nobody will care. A might throw a slight bitchfest, but one look at busty and infuriated Tsunade will make him slither away.



Sarahmint said:


> The thought of Sasuke in chains turns me the fuck on!
> 
> [sp][/sp]



Reading through the page and all of its serious business, this was the last thing I expected.


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## Sifus (Sep 22, 2013)

It would be incredibly silly if Sasuke got punished after helping in a war that decided the fate of the world.

Tsunade:"Thanks for reviving my Grandfather and sending Oro to save me but you must still be punished "


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## Yuna (Sep 22, 2013)

Veja24 said:


> Let me answer you with this  - do you remember anyone receiving punishment for their actions in this manga? And by this I mean by the government they live under? Dude, killing someone is nothing in Naruto. It's as if police don't exist in their world.


All of Akatsuki were Missing Nin, some for simply killing a person or two. Zabuza was also a Missing Nin for trying to assassinate the leader of his village. Orochimaru was a wanted criminal.

Now, they might not have been captured by their respective former governments, but they were on their hit lists.

Concrete examples:
* Hiashi Hyuuga had to pay with his life to appease the Cloud for a supposed crime he didn't (really) commit.
* Kabuto was actively being hunted down by Konoha even before his affiliation with Obito was known.
* Sasuke was branded a terrorist with a kill-on-sight order.

Murdering people from other villages as part of missions is not a crime. Murdering someone of your own village, however, is. Kinda like how the armed forces work in real life. Kill an enemy combatant and you're rewarded. Maliciously kill an ally and you'll get punished.


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## SharkBomb 4 (Sep 22, 2013)

Sifus said:


> It would be incredibly silly if Sasuke got punished after helping in a war that decided the fate of the world.
> 
> Tsunade:"Thanks for reviving my Grandfather and sending Oro to save me but you must still be punished "



Raikage: It's great that you did that and all, but you tried to kill me, my brother, forced me to amputate my arm and gave a mad man a tool he needed to revive the most powerful being on earth. Ya, you still better face punishment punk.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 22, 2013)

Kakuzu was imprisoned too for his crime of failing to kill the FIrst Hokage IIRC.


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## Jagger (Sep 22, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Kakuzu was imprisoned too for his crime of failing to kill the FIrst Hokage IIRC.


It wasn't exactly a 'crime', but more of a failure and bringing shame to his village for failing in such mission. He wasn't imprisioned, but kicked out, I believe?


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## Sifus (Sep 22, 2013)

SharkBomb 4 said:


> Raikage: It's great that you did that and all, but you tried to kill me, my brother, forced me to amputate my arm and gave a mad man a tool he needed to revive the most powerful being on earth. Ya, you still better face punishment punk.



What Raikage going to do to Sasuke?


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## ch1p (Sep 22, 2013)

Yuna said:


> * Hiashi Hyuuga had to pay with his life to appease the Cloud for a supposed crime he didn't (really) commit.



That was a pretense. What they wanted was the Byakugan. Results > village pride.



> * Kabuto was actively being hunted down by Konoha even before his affiliation with Obito was known.



Another pretense. Danzo wanted to kill him because he knew too much. Results > village pride.



> * Sasuke was branded a terrorist with a kill-on-sight order.



Danzo.

Results > village pride.



> Murdering people from other villages as part of missions is not a crime. Murdering someone of your own village, however, is. Kinda like how the armed forces work in real life. Kill an enemy combatant and you're rewarded. Maliciously kill an ally and you'll get punished.



Then its fine because the only person Sasuke killed from the Leaf was Danzo and even that doesn't count because like someone so eloquently put it a few pages back, he imploded himself up.



SharkBomb 4 said:


> Raikage: It's great that you did that and all, but you tried to kill me, my brother, *forced me to amputate my arm* and *gave a mad man a tool he needed to revive the most powerful being on earth. *Ya, you still better face punishment punk.





*Everyone but the Cloud was involved with Akatsuki in some way.*

Raikage is an emotional man, but he's not stupid.



Sifus said:


> What Raikage going to do to Sasuke?



Offer his leg that he's been longing to, and another arm as an extra.


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## Palpatine (Sep 22, 2013)

I'm still hoping he dies in this war.

I know...probably not gonna happen, but I can dream...


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## Sifus (Sep 22, 2013)

Palpatine said:


> I'm still hoping he dies in this war.
> 
> I know...probably not gonna happen, but I can dream...



Come on, Sasuke can't be THAT  bad.


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## slumpy (Sep 22, 2013)

First sasuke will not be punnished, or he will get an advisor rol in Konoha or he will be the Sounds kage or something. Because kishi will find a way for naruto to 'bring him back'.

But I believe this thread as a hypothical discussion about if he should of shouldnt be hold responsible for his crimes.


First let me adress his crimes and why it are crimes:

- Becoming a missing-nin = death penalty in the shinobi world (in our world also, deserting or going to the enemy is deathpenalty)
- joining akatsuki (Joining Al quida like organisation is always a crime against your country)
- Attacking the cloud village and trying to abduct their Jin. He did join akatsuki and tried to steal there most powerfull weapon.
- Attacking the Kages. What if someone who's family is killed by the USA in a bombing attack, and attacks with a gun an UN converance with al the leaders of the world .(Also sasuke attacked here solo, knowone orderd him to do this!)
-  Killled an High ranking shinobi of the leaf! (Danzou ordering the death of the uchiha clan is NOT a crime, it is unethical. But he had his reason. Like itachi just handled it like a shinobi (a soldier/ special agent (shinobi) must follow orders!!!). Sasuke attacked and killed danzou on his own judgement,  that is called murder!!!)

Then he tried to kill his comrades etc (that is unethical), but at the same time he attacked officers of the Leaf (kakakshi)

Then allot of people try to make the comparing with gaara. 

I don't know what CRIMES gaara commited, even thou he enjoyed killing, he still attacked and killed the leaf shinobi's as part of a mission. His surperiors gave him that order. 
In his youth he killed allot of people, but that was mostly the tailed-beast running wild. ANd his father did punsh him for that. he tried to assasinated him nummerous times. What happend and why gaara became a genin (so a soldier), we don't know!
But I don't know any CRIMES he commited.

Then there is the argument of the Stone for using Akatsuki and the Sand attacking the Leaf. Again different. First keep in mind that the shinobi world was pre-part 1 and part 1 different then in this war-arc. Villages where not at peace with eatchother. They where on a agrement not to fight each other. But tried to screw eachother in every possible way. They hold very closed borders and politcs, they where not allies!


Stonevillage: 


in the beginning or pre-wararc. The villages where mostly status quo with eachother. They where not allies, and mostly they wanted to get over there own territory or information. When the akatsuki didn't have anymembers atm from there villages then what is wrong with hiring some S-class nins??? Deidera could not be a member at the time (we dont know this!!)

The sand:

they went to war against the leaf (shit happens), they lost and payed for that. After it is just buisness and life goes on. And from that moment on they where footlicking village with the leaf.
And forgiving a country and having them in your dept is a good position!


But what does sasuke has to offer to leaf/shinobi world, so they can negociate about his crimes? He has no country, no resourches, army etc.

(- Itachi cleared the Edo (sasuke was there, but it was not his intention and itachi could handle Kabuto himself)
- suigitsu and Juugo found the scroll and oro summond the previous kages.)

So what has sasuke to offer so that the other villages and shinobi should forgive him? Because atm it can also be the situation: The shinobi alliance and sasuke have the same enemy. and my enemy's enemy makes my (temporary) friend.


In my opinion sasuke is always the antagonist. So he will attack/ betray naruto at some point, and like a said kishi will find a way for naruto to 'bring sasuke back' and there will be a happy end.

But let's say sasuke is 'good' and stays a good boy. Then Sasuke needs to proof himself in this War so people can forgive him and he can remdeem himself. What he is doing atm, and judging from the latest page of the manga, he is going to proof himself even more!


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## Frostman (Sep 23, 2013)

Because there is nothing to gain from punishing him.


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## vagnard (Sep 23, 2013)

Mizuki went to jail just for stealing a scroll. Logically Sasuke should receive a worse punishment betraying Konoha twice and being a menace to the ninja world (he helped Obito to retrieve a tail from Hachibi, attacked the Kage summit, tried to kill Team 7 twice, etc). But Naruto will TNJ everyone into loving him.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 23, 2013)

I must stress again that Sasuke murdered the de facto leader of Konoha.

Zabuza had to flee after a failed assassination attempt on his Kage.


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## Datakim (Sep 23, 2013)

Ultimately its not going to be about justice, but about politics. Sasuke is exceptionally strong. He is also the last Uchiha. So long as he is willing to rejoin the village, then either his crimes will be conveniently ignored, or there will be a "trial" and he will be pardoned by Tsunade (assuming she lives).

There might be token protests from Mifune (for the murdered Samurai) and Raikage (who lost his arm), but what are they going to do if Sasuke joins the Leaf? Attack? Naruto&Sasuke could basically solo both countries at this point.

The rest havent really suffered under Sasuke. His crime of being a part of Akatsuki temporarily will be easily ignored considering he was responsible for bringing in the edo!hokages.

Ofcourse that assumes Sasuke will rejoin Konoha. I guess that depends on how horrible writer Kishi is. I could see Sasuke not getting what he wants (The hokage position), and doing a Madara and deciding that if he does not get Konoha, no one will and attacking. That then would lead to the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Karyu Endan (Sep 23, 2013)

kresh said:


> He murdered Danzo,



Who totally deserved what he got. 



> attempted to kill Kakashi and Sakura



Who also tried to kill Sasuke, and were portrayed as being in the wrong for doing so.



> helped Obito capture part of the 8 tails which is a direct war crime against not only Konoha but the world,



Actually, that's only a crime against Kumo. And not a very severe one in and of itself, since Bee is still alive, and even took the entire ordeal as an excuse to defy his brother's laws and go on vacation. Once it was revealed that Bee was still alive to the world at large, A immediately puts finding Bee, and punishing him for running away, on top of make Sasuke pay for cutting off one stinking tentacle. It was only a big deal back when everyone thought Bee was dead and the Eight Tails was captured, which is not the case. 



> attempted to murder Naruto,



On several occasions. And Naruto holds no ill will. Also, Gaara and Nagato tried to kill Naruto as well and they turned out fine (that being said, it is implied Gaara worked his ass off during the timeskip to earn everyone's acceptance and Nagato died shortly after his turn. There will still need to be some form of remorse on Sasuke's end for trying to kill his best friend before redemption can be feasible) .



> defected from the village,



This has been discussed already. Normally, Sasuke would have been marked for death for that offense the moment he decided to defect, but due to Naruto and Sakura's desire to bring Sasuke back, and Tsunade sympathizing, she made Sasuke the sole exception to that rule. If Sasuke manages to return to Konoha out of his own free will, and proves to be an asset to Konoha as a valuable ally, then Sasuke will have already done sufficient compensation to redeem himself of that particular crime. And this is something Sasuke has already done.



> conspired with Orochimaru,



No he hasn't. Sasuke planned on betraying Orochimaru the moment he went into his lair, and spends his years during the timeskip researching how to defeat him. He temporarily kills Orochimaru himself, then frees many of Orochimaru's slaves, before going off to take down Itachi. And Sasuke deciding to revive Orochimaru in order to get answers about Konoha's past through the reanimated Hokage has led to Orochimaru being subservient to Sasuke's will and the Edo Hokage coming to help out the alliance, and since they've got here they've been a very valuable force for the alliance. I do not exaggerate when I say that Sasuke has been a better double-agent for Konoha while under Orochimaru's tutelage than Itachi was while in Akatsuki, and *he wasn't even trying to be.*


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## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Sep 23, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Mizuki went to jail just for stealing a scroll. Logically Sasuke should receive a worse punishment betraying Konoha twice and being a menace to the ninja world (he helped Obito to retrieve a tail from Hachibi, attacked the Kage summit, tried to kill Team 7 twice, etc). But Naruto will TNJ everyone into loving him.



Mizuki attempted to steal a scroll to give to Orochimaru (If my memory serves me right that is) by luring a naive academy student into believing that by stealing the scroll of forbidden jutsu, he would actually pass his academy exam to become a Genin. 

He attempted to get Naruto to unleash the power of the demon fox by manipulating him with emotions and fear. If he had succeeded he would have brought destruction and death to the Konoha village.

He attempted to kill/murder Iruka to achieve the first basic steps of this extremely lethal plan.

He tried to kill Naruto.


Let us recap:

1. Lied to an academy student to achieve power/status
2. Used academy student to break into the 3rd Hokage's living quarters to steal a scroll.
3. The stolen scroll was not just a stolen piece of paper attained by illegal measures, The scroll itself was supposed to be Surpressed/illegal in a manner of speaking because it was the "Forbidden Scroll."
4. Planned to use stolen forbidden scroll to give to Orochimaru, a wanted S-class criminal missing-nin.
5. Broke the law by talking about the Kyuubi and Naruto.
6. Tried to set the Kyuubi, inside of Naruto, on a rampage to cause death and destruction towards the village of Konoha.
6. He tried to kill Naruto.
7. He tried to kill Iruka-sensai 


When we add up all of his combined crimes within that one act, it comes out to a pretty lengthy and terrible lot of crimes. Had he succeeded, who knows what carnage would have happened. Also, Orochimaru would have a forbidden scroll that he desired to amplify his power.

Yup, he deserved jail.


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## slumpy (Sep 23, 2013)

Karyu Endan said:


> Who totally deserved what he got.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ch1p (Sep 23, 2013)

Lol Mizuki. Going back all the way to chapter 1 to get _something_. That something is poor though. How long was Mizuki in prison, you don't even know (nor if he was there to begin with). Karin, one of Orochimaru's underlings, was treated reasonably well.

The world of Naruto is one of advantage over butthurt. You lot want them to be butthurt, but they are not that way.


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## Hokage (Sep 23, 2013)

a) Sasuke served Konoha
b) He saved Naruto's life
c) Hes been an incentive for Naruto to get better
d) He crippled Orochimaru (S Rank villain) breaking his organization once and for all.
e) He killed Deidara (Akatsuki member who killed Gaara)
f) He killed Itachi (ok he was a good guy but heck he was still with Akatsuki at that time)
g) He nearly killed Karin (Orochimaru disciple)
h) He killed Danzo (one of the main causes of evil in Naruto world, whose list of successes include the creation of monster Kabuto, the Uchiha clan genocide, Itachi's exile etc)
i) He crippled the Raikage (ok that's bad)
j) He contributed in blocking Kabuto, releasing all Edo tensei in the process
k) He joined the Kage army, bringing at the kage's side, 4 edo hokages, Orochimaru and team hawk

This guy has done more for Konoha then Tsunade/Hiruzen combined. Oh well.


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## Missing_Nin (Sep 23, 2013)

konoha's advisors are pussies.  they didnt do jack shit to the sand village after the attack.  what makes you think they'll do anything to sasuke?


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## Gabe (Sep 23, 2013)

He should he contributed to the juubis revival he invaded a country to try and kidnap bee and took a piece of the 8 tail which was used to revive the juubi. Him or his team killed jay from kumo or at least hurt him. Invaded the samurai land and killed samurai. He should go to jail but won't because naruto will protect him.


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## emersennin (Sep 23, 2013)

yo, oonoki said himself that whoever stopped the edo tensei was a hero to the shinobi world, which was partially because of sasuke and this is only one example of his worthiness. he also brought in the edo hokages for help, had the gokage healed, bringing orochimaru back to help and changing him, and right now he is fighting the god tree. his scene was really hindered since sasuke should have looked into their eyes and showed him their heart when he was the only one that wasn't discouraged and brought naruto's spirits back up so when the alliance is motivated again they won't thank sasuke but naruto when he was just a crybaby until sasuke showed he would stay strong. however, i think there must be a sequel to the series where it's about sasuke and how he's the savior for the future, not just being a naruto and saving just the time being and not solving these problems


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## Sanity Check (Sep 24, 2013)

Sasuke represents an endangered species and must be allowed to roam free and procreate as the last of the Uchiha, rather than held in captivity.


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## Kanga (Sep 24, 2013)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Sasuke represents an endangered species and must be allowed to roam free and procreate as the last of the Uchiha, rather than held in captivity.



Not too sure about his attitude on procreation.

Being asexual and what not.


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## Overhaul (Sep 24, 2013)

Kanga said:


> Not too sure about his attitude on procreation.
> 
> Being asexual and what not.



Two words: Artificial insemination.


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## Miss Happy (Sep 24, 2013)

because he's hot.he's hot.have you ever seen a hot thing getting punished


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## Melas (Sep 24, 2013)

16 pages of discussion on this? Oh well, there are many sidekick lovers on these forums, so thats to be expected I suppose.

Anyway, I am not sure if I even recall accurately, but wouldn't little Sasuke already have been on the bingo books as a wanted criminal at the end of the first half had Tsunade not refrained on Naruto's behest? Since then, his crimes have only increased.

There is a distinction between illegality and immorality. Its fact that little Sasuke has broken many laws, whether he was justified in doing so due to some higher morality is and will always be up for debate.

As for being beneficial in this war, I suppose that could lead a judge to reduce the extent of punishment, so thats another factor that needs to be considered. 
However, the significant aspect here is whether his aid was intentional or ancillary to some other personal motive that may yet again lead him at cross-purposes with the establishment.

Personally, one would have to be foolish to trust this sort of person, who so casually discards his village and friends for power. Thus, I would punish him and not include him in anything beyond the war. I don't consider him to be of any use in peace time anyway. But, thats just me.

In the context of the story, its inescapable that he will be pardoned and not serve any punishment. Most of all and above everything else he has his lover to count on, who just happens to be the de-facto leader of the ninja system.


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## Jagger (Sep 24, 2013)

Miss Happy said:


> because he's hot.he's hot.have you ever seen a hot thing getting punished?


This must be the most shallow reason I've read in the whole week.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 24, 2013)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Sasuke represents an endangered species and must be allowed to roam free and procreate as the last of the Uchiha, rather than held in captivity.



I suggest a forced breeding progrram as that would deliver faster results than waiting for Sasuke to figure out how boys and girls are different.

Lock him up in some ANBU cell and just slowly rotate in women of the village. We can start off with girrls of his own generation but steadily move up the line, Kurenai and the like be next. Go all the way up to Tsuade  if she's still fertile.


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## Punk Zebra (Sep 24, 2013)

Melas said:


> 16 pages of discussion on this? Oh well, there are many sidekick lovers on these forums, so thats to be expected I suppose.
> 
> Anyway, I am not sure if I even recall accurately, but wouldn't little *Sasuke already have been on the bingo books as a wanted criminal* at the end of the first half had Tsunade not refrained on Naruto's behest? Since then, his crimes have only increased.
> 
> ...



Exactly! Sasuke is an S-Rank criminal and is in the bingo book... why the hell should he be forgiven for all shit hes done...none of the other S criminals were. For him to get off scott free would be total bullshit. All of you know what he has done and none of the so called good that he has done outweighs the bad...period.


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## Sifus (Sep 24, 2013)

Punk Zebra said:


> Exactly! Sasuke is an S-Rank criminal and is in the bingo book... why the hell should he be forgiven for all shit hes done...none of the other S criminals were. For him to get off scott free would be total bullshit. All of you know what he has done and none of the so called good that he has done outweighs the bad...period.



Saving the world doesn't outweight attempted assassination?  

And I'm pretty sure Naruto himself forgave Itachi(an S-class criminal) who tried capturing him back in Part 1.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 24, 2013)

Itachi never betrayed the village. He was an asshole but, as we've covered, this is about legality,not morality. Sasuke was a violent criminal who betrayed the Leaf many times.


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## ch1p (Sep 24, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> this is about legality



Because ninjas whose missions often incorporate taking a piss in each other's territories care about legality.


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## slumpy (Sep 24, 2013)

Sifus said:


> Saving the world doesn't outweight attempted assassination?
> 
> And I'm pretty sure Naruto himself forgave Itachi(an S-class criminal) who tried capturing him back in Part 1.



when did sasuke save the world? Itachi cancelled the Edo. Oro summond the Kages.

At this point sasuke did as much as Kiba or lee.


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## Dogescartes (Sep 24, 2013)

He will reconstruct the Uchiha Police Ghetto in Konoha.



Then edo tobirama should stay there forever to control him.-


You know we have reasons to not trust Uchihas. Their eyes affect their brains.


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## Punk Zebra (Sep 24, 2013)

Sifus said:


> Saving the world doesn't outweight attempted assassination?
> 
> And I'm pretty sure Naruto himself forgave Itachi(an S-class criminal) who tried capturing him back in Part 1.



Let me ask you this. Do you think Orochimaru deserves to be forgiven even though he is helping out in this war? Hmmm...


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 24, 2013)

Orochimaru for Sixth Hokage. He's a true hero.


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## Seto Kaiba (Sep 24, 2013)

ch1p said:


> Because ninjas whose missions often incorporate taking a piss in each other's territories care about legality.



They are clearly not an anarchic society, so I don't know why people make this kind of argument. Anyone reading can tell there are set rules and laws, or else there would be no concept of crime and punishment in the universe.


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## ch1p (Sep 24, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> They are clearly not an anarchic society, so I don't know why people make this kind of argument. Anyone reading can tell there are set rules and laws, or else there would be no concept of crime and punishment in the universe.



Yeah, the Naruto-verse has rules and laws... those get broken all the time to further any sort of agenda of the day, which is the point of what I said.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> You weren't paying attention to the first hokages tale of how flawed as fuck the ninja system is did you? Also that not many knew of how a shinobi is one who endures. Those who did were never able to point it out until it was too late (Minato, Hashirama).
> 
> The failures of the hokage is what lead to the ninja war.



Nah. I blame the Uchiha.


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## HoriMaori (Sep 24, 2013)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nah. I blame the Uchiha.



More specifically, Uchiha Madara, Uchiha Obito and to a lesser extent Uchiha Sasuke.

Sasuke should recieve punishment because when it is all said and done, he will be the only Uchiha alive to face up to his crimes (and the carried over crimes of his clansmen).

Naruto will step in and say, "If you want to punish him, you will have to go through me...."

Which means Sasuke is off the hook


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## HoriMaori (Sep 24, 2013)

Sifus said:


> Please read the manga. Oro brought back the Edo Kage's on Sasuke's orders.  He healed Tsunade on Sasuke's orders.  Sasuke's currently teaming up with Naruto take down Obito. Onoki claimed whoever stopped Edo Tensei was a hero. Itachi isn't here so who do you think will get credit?



Sasuke also took a portion of Gyūki chakra so that the Juubi could be resurrected, soooooooo......


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## Sifus (Sep 24, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Sasuke also took a portion of Gyūki chakra so that the Juubi could be resurrected, soooooooo......



And Onoki claimed nations gave money to the Akatsuki to hire them as mercenaries.  What's your point?

The whole system and everyone involved is crap so pointing fingers at just Sasuke is stupid.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> More specifically, Uchiha Madara, Uchiha Obito and to a lesser extent Uchiha Sasuke.
> 
> Sasuke should recieve punishment because when it is all said and done, he will be the only Uchiha alive to face up to his crimes (and the carried over crimes of his clansmen).
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure Sasuke is going to get a pass. I don't want him to, but I'm pretty sure he will.


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## slumpy (Sep 24, 2013)

Sifus said:


> Please read the manga. Oro brought back the Edo Kage's on Sasuke's orders.



Oh I read the manga! Did you?

 I recall that it is oro's own free choice to cooperate with sasuke's plan.  But then Hashirama broke free, so how do you think things would turn out if Sasuke would deceide to attack the leaf? Oro could restrain Tobirama, but for how long?



> He healed Tsunade on Sasuke's orders.



Proof please? Because I cant find that page!
Also sasuke is not an sensortype so how does he know about the kages their condition?



> Sasuke's currently teaming up with Naruto take down Obito. Onoki claimed whoever stopped Edo Tensei was a hero. Itachi isn't here so who do you think will get credit?



That Comment was to praise Itachi and itachi's vision of a shinobi:


*Spoiler*: __ 



we know that the ANBU existed during Tobirama's reign.




" a nameless shinobi....[..] Shisui thought me that"


*Spoiler*: __ 



we know that the ANBU existed during Tobirama's reign.




"It doesn't mather who....."

Again.. when did sasuke save the world?

I don't understand why you give sasuke credit for things he didn't even do? He didn't order oro to go with him Oro deceided that on his own.


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## Milliardo (Sep 24, 2013)

you're trying too hard bro orochimaru summoned the kages because sasuke wanted him too. orochimaru wasn't going to fuck with sasuke as he was too weak... 

sasuke does get credit for helping itachi stop edo tensei..


i honestly can't believe people are going to actually count the 8tails small limb as sasuke greatly helping revive the juubi. thats nitpicking at the hightest level.


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## Sifus (Sep 24, 2013)

slumpy said:


> Oh I read the manga! Did you?
> 
> I recall that it is oro's own free choice to cooperate with sasuke's plan.  But then Hashirama broke free, so how do you think things would turn out if Sasuke would deceide to attack the leaf? Oro could restrain Tobirama, but for how long?
> 
> ...



Unfortunately since I'm using my phone to compose this I can't provide you with links. You'll simply have to do your job as a reader and attempt reading with comprehension.

I fail to understand why you brought Hashirama up, I assume its to claim that Oro had no choice but to do as Sasuke said but your argument crumbles since Oro asked Sasuke if he still wanted to destroy despite knowing Hashi had broke out of his control.

Oro tells Karin he seperated her from Sasuke to carry out the mission from Sasuke. Sasuke doesn't have to be a sensor; In the recent chapter Hiruzen asked Oro about the Kages condition despite not being a sensor.

I fail to see what your trying to prove with your last point ad it only solidifies my point.


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## Trollism (Sep 24, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> you're trying too hard bro orochimaru summoned the kages because sasuke wanted him too. orochimaru wasn't going to fuck with sasuke as he was too weak...
> 
> sasuke does get credit for helping itachi stop edo tensei..
> 
> ...



Maybe people are counting the "small limb" because without it the alliance woulldnt be facing *this* right now?


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## Sifus (Sep 24, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> you're trying too hard bro orochimaru summoned the kages because sasuke wanted him too. orochimaru wasn't going to fuck with sasuke as he was too weak...
> 
> sasuke does get credit for helping itachi stop edo tensei..
> 
> ...



I don't get why their so pressed.  Even if they want Sasuke to get punished who's strong enough to even evoke said punishment?  We all know Naruto won't do shit so the debate that Sasuke should get punished is pointless.


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## slumpy (Sep 24, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> you're trying too hard bro orochimaru summoned the kages because sasuke wanted him too. orochimaru wasn't going to fuck with sasuke as he was too weak...



I am not trying to hard, just pointing facts and common sense

After Oro summond the kages and got his arms back he was at full strenght. So what would sasuke have done against him? Maybe oro was not strong engough to take sasuke's body. But do you think 4 edo kages are strong enough to kill sasuke?

Oro deceided to help sasuke with his plan (see his speach against tsunade). 



*Spoiler*: __ 



sasuke does get credit for helping itachi stop edo tensei..




Helping itachi yes! But what did sasuke do exaclty against the edo tensei? Who's plan and jutsu got the seals and defeated kabuto?



*Spoiler*: __ 




i honestly can't believe people are going to actually count the 8tails small limb as sasuke greatly helping revive the juubi. thats nitpicking at the hightest level. 




Sasuke joined akatsuki and helped obito with his plans! If it wasn't for Itachi sasuke would be fighting along side Obito atm.


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## Kanga (Sep 24, 2013)

Revy said:


> Two words: Artificial insemination.



Good point.


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## Hamtaro (Sep 24, 2013)

Did everyone forget that Sasuke murdered the 5.5th Hokage?


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## ice77 (Sep 24, 2013)

This is an action shounen and not some realistic crime drama so obviously he will walk scott free now that he has declared his righteous intentions. 

Not to mention Hashi will vouch for Sasuke to be forgiven for his past crimes. But whole kage bit is of course the most ridiculous piece of work this Kishi guy has ever written..it still puzzles me even although I know I shouldn't take this manga to seriously.


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## Shinryu (Sep 25, 2013)

He had every right to kill the man who ordered his clan to its death.


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## Nep Nep (Sep 25, 2013)

Meh Sasuke hasn't done anything bad enough to be worth caring about. He killed the old traitorous bastard Danzo? Oh no... Give the guy a medal. 

Obito could have done everything he needed with or without Sasuke's help and Sasuke hardly did shit anyways. 

Sasuke did the equivalent evil of team rocket, nothing worthy of note.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 25, 2013)

HamSloth said:


> Did everyone forget that Sasuke murdered the 5.5th Hokage?



Yes. THey're ungrateful.




Shinryu said:


> He had every right to kill the man who ordered his clan to its death.



And the man who ACTUALLY KILLED HIS CLAN? Sasuke wants to build a giant gold statue of him.

Talk about hypocrite.  In fact, by vowing to destroy Konoha, Sasuke utterly shit on everything Itachi did...while praising Itachi....

INsane little moron.



Kyokkai said:


> Meh Sasuke hasn't done anything bad enough to be worth caring about. He killed the old traitorous bastard Danzo? Oh no... Give the guy a medal.
> 
> Obito could have done everything he needed with or without Sasuke's help and Sasuke hardly did shit anyways.
> 
> Sasuke did the equivalent evil of team rocket, nothing worthy of note.



...Sasuke would have gone to Konoha and attacked it if Pain hadn't done it already.

And yet you're calling Danzo traitorous?


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## Hiko Seijurou (Sep 25, 2013)

Because he's sorry about them.

Oh wait, he is not even that. 



Seriously, though, he saved the Alliance (through the Hokage and Orochimaru). If it weren't for him, there would _be_ no village to prosecute him.


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## KageSummitChamp (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm not the biggest Sasuke fan but he really hasn't done anything that bad. The only people he killed he warned to get out of the way the other was Danzou who needed to be beat down by somebody I think Naruto was about to do it I remember Kakashi wouldn't even let Naruto talk to Danzou. Sasuke just beat them to it him killing Danzou is the one thing I like about Sasuke. Sasuke showed coldblooded murderor Deidara mercy he is pretty much a boy scout although he did go on a rant but ranting and doing it are two different things. I can rant that I'll beat all of you people up but in reality I never did. You can't punish me like I did beat you guys up.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Sep 25, 2013)

KageSummitChamp said:


> I'm not the biggest Sasuke fan but he really hasn't done anything that bad. The only people he killed he warned to get out of the way the other was Danzou who needed to be beat down by somebody I think Naruto was about to do it I remember Kakashi wouldn't even let Naruto talk to Danzou. Sasuke just beat them to it him killing Danzou is the one thing I like about Sasuke. Sasuke showed coldblooded murderor Deidara mercy he is pretty much a boy scout although he did go on a rant but ranting and doing it are two different things. I can rant that I'll beat all of you people up but in reality I never did. You can't punish me like I did beat you guys up.


That was painful to read.




Kyokkai said:


> Meh Sasuke hasn't done anything bad enough to be worth caring about. He killed the old traitorous bastard Danzo? Oh no... Give the guy a medal.
> 
> Obito could have done everything he needed with or without Sasuke's help and Sasuke hardly did shit anyways.
> 
> Sasuke did the equivalent evil of team rocket, nothing worthy of note.


lol :rofl


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## Alita (Sep 25, 2013)

For me, Sasuke doesn't have to pay for his crimes so long as he dies before this manga ends. Seriously I want kishi to kil this fucker off already.


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## Alicia (Sep 25, 2013)

The prosecution expired


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## Alita (Sep 25, 2013)

Miss Happy said:


> because he's hot.he's hot.have you ever seen a hot thing getting punished


Seriously?


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## eyeknockout (Sep 25, 2013)

he gets a pass since itachi is his brother and itachi saved the whole world like 2-10 times.


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## Kage (Sep 25, 2013)

There actually isn't a logical explanation for this. There simply won't be any repercussions for anything even resembling a crime he has most certainly committed (treason being the most obvious for starters)


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