# Doflamingo vs Whitebeard Commanders



## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

Marineford
IC
100m

Scenario 1: Doflamingo vs Vista
Scenario 2: Doflamigno vs Jozu
Scenario 3: Doflamigno vs Marco

Just wonderin' how people view their strength relation.


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## trance (Sep 21, 2013)

> Scenario 1: Doflamingo vs Vista



Can go either way. Leaning towards DD.



> Scenario 2: Doflamingo vs Jozu



Jozu high difficulty.



> Scenario 3: Doflamingo vs Marco



Marco mid difficulty.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

Scenario 1: DD high difficulty.
Scenario 2: Jozu high difficulty.
Scenario 3: Marco high difficulty.


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## Coruscation (Sep 21, 2013)

Marco and Jozu win. Marco is a no contest and I don't see how Doflamingo is even going to damage Jozu. Slicing diamond? Nope. Vista would probably be a good fight, harder to call that one.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 21, 2013)

DD stomps
DD stomps
IDK but DD should stomp


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## Orca (Sep 21, 2013)

1. DD wins
2. Can go either way.
3. Marco wins.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> DD stomps
> DD stomps
> IDK but DD should stomp



Certainly you jest. Top tiers don't stomp each other. Unless that top tier is WB.


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## trance (Sep 21, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Certainly you jest. Top tiers don't stomp each other. Unless that top tier is WB.



Ignore him, he's a troll.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Ignore him, he's a troll.



Thanks for the advice I didn't know he was one.


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## Goomoonryong (Sep 21, 2013)

Scenario 1: Doflamingo wins probably high diff

Scenario 2: Doflamingo wins extreme difficulty

Scenario 3: Marco wins high diff


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## Extravlad (Sep 21, 2013)

S1 Vista high diff.
S2 Jozu high diff
S3 Marco mid diff


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## Datassassin (Sep 21, 2013)

Scenario 1 - Doflamingo.
Scenario 2 - If all Doflamingo can do is cut and immobilize with the wires, I don't see how he could injure Jozu here. So Jozu I guess.
Scenario 3 - Again, I don't really see either one easily damaging the other. Doflamingo has seemed quite fast while Marco point-blank has regeneration. I wonder if the regeneration offered by his Devil Fruit could be overwhelmed, like if he sustained enough Haki-damage at once, would a point arise at which he could die. Anyway with what's established so far Marco would probably win with high-difficulty.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 21, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Marco and Jozu win. Marco is a no contest and I don't see how Doflamingo is even going to damage Jozu. Slicing diamond? Nope. Vista would probably be a good fight, harder to call that one.



Its marineford he could always kick him near the water and then restrain his movements so he can't regain his footing aka fall in the water.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Doflamingo already made a fool out of Jozu so I can't see how he loses that one. Jozu's diamond body is only a partial transformation last I checked. Dofla cuts his human body to shreds and watches him bleed to death.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 21, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Certainly you jest. Top tiers don't stomp each other. Unless that top tier is WB.



Except Doflamingo used Jozu as chair I'm dead serious.



Mr. E Man said:


> Ignore him, he's a troll.



Its first time i see you so GTFO


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

As if he'd manage to pull off such a stunt in a fair battle.


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## Coruscation (Sep 21, 2013)

> he could always kick him near the water and then restrain his movements so he can't regain his footing aka fall in the water.



Doflamingo hasn't shown anywhere near the kicking power to think he could _send Jozu flying_ nor do I have any reason to think he is going to do so. It should be obvious who the much greater physical, defensive and generally rock solid powerhouse between them is.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> As if he'd manage to pull off such a stunt in a fair battle.



What do you mean ? please explain.


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> What do you mean ? please explain.



He would not restrain Jozu in a fair fight.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> As if he'd manage to pull off such a stunt in a fair battle.



Jozu was staring directly at Doflamingo and Crocodile, not to mention CoO. What Dofla did was fair game.


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

No it wasn't. Jozu was surprised, given his expression, so you're either implying that Doflamigno blitzed him (lol), or moved aside and then interfered when he least expected it. Which one seems more likely?


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No it wasn't. Jozu was surprised, given his expression, so you're either implying that Doflamigno blitzed him (lol), or moved aside and then interfered when he least expected it. Which one seems more likely?



Considering Doflamingo's powers are entirely a mystery, I'd say having your entire body stopped dead in it's tracks for unknown reasons while moving at supersonic speeds would warrant shock.

Not to mention that Jozu was preparing to charge and take out Croc, a logia. To do so, he'd need to have used CoA and apparently, his haki wasn't strong enough to deter Doflamingo's strings.


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

What does that have to do with anything? It's clear what happened. Jozu was charging towards Crocodile, and Doflamingo moved aside. When he was least expecting it, Doflamingo struck and restrained him.

And I wouldn't be so sure about Dofla being able to control Jozu or anything - Jozu didn't even try to break out from the looks of it (we can infer that as Mingo had trouble restraining fodder like Sarquiss), or both were in a mutual struggle as neither could avoid Sables.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> What does that have to do with anything? It's clear what happened. Jozu was charging towards Crocodile, and Doflamingo moved aside. When he was least expecting it, Doflamingo struck and restrained him.



A) Haki provides a defence against Devil fruit power. Smoker does more than imply this and we've even seen the Admirals demonstrate it against Whitebeard. Jozu presumably used CoA against Crocodile and it wasn't strong enough to protect him from Doflamingo thus I came to the conclusion that Dofla can restrain him just as easily as the other Commander.

B) Doflamingo's strings aren't visible to the eye last I checked and Jozu having his body stopped instantly by an unknown force makes the "surprise" excuse void.

C) Scans of Doflamingo moving to the side?



> And I wouldn't be so sure about Dofla being able to control Jozu or anything - Jozu didn't even try to break out from the looks of it (we can infer that as Mingo had trouble restraining fodder like Sarquiss), or both were in a mutual struggle as neither could avoid Sables.



You can't be serious.............Doflamingo stood on top of him like a stool while having a conversation with Crocodile, I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds. Controlling and actively moving a puppet =/= restraining one.


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## Coruscation (Sep 21, 2013)

> Jozu presumably used CoA against Crocodile and it wasn't strong enough to protect him from Doflamingo thus I came to the conclusion that Dofla can restrain him just as easily as the other Commander.



That doesn't logically follow. Jozu presumably empowered his fist with CoA to punch Crocodile and not his whole body. How is that supposed to stop whatever Doffy does to ensnare his body in his strings? Not that I think Armament Haki necessarily stops Doflamingo's power that clear cut anyway but if it does Jozu didn't actively fail. He didn't try unless you seriously think a fight between them would always end that easily and there's nothing the guy who is WB's third and can fight Aokiji is able to do about it.

Fighting Doffy head on probably actually has more to do with deflecting and evading his strings. Maybe someone with true monster Haki like Shanks&Garp can brute force them but I don't buy the idea that Jozu would've if only he had full body CoA.


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

> A) Haki provides a defence against Devil fruit power.



No it doesn't. I mean, seriously? Did haki prevent Caesar Clown from suffocating Luffy? Did haki prevent the Yeti Cool Bro's from defeating Zoro? Did haki prevent Whitebeard from getting frozen by Aokiji? Did haki prevent Magellan from taking down Blackbeard's entire crew? I can go on. 



> Jozu presumably used CoA against Crocodile and it wasn't strong enough to protect him from Doflamingo thus I came to the conclusion that Dofla can restrain him just as easily as the other Commander.



That conclusion makes no sense whatsoever as you know next to nothing about his ability, and how it works. What does make sense however is Doflamingo not just lolrestraining a person that could go toe to toe fight Aokiji - an opponent who could most likely hand Doflamingo his ass with ease. 



> B) Doflamingo's strings aren't visible to the eye last I checked and Jozu having his body stopped instantly by an unknown force makes the "surprise" excuse void.
> 
> C) Scans of Doflamingo moving to the side?



So you genuinely believe that Doflamingo jumped in the air, hopped on Jozu and restrained him before the latter could do anything despite being able to effectively fight an opponent _much_ stronger and faster than the birdman in CQC? 



> You can't be serious.............Doflamingo stood on top of him like a stool while having a conversation with Crocodile, I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds.



So Doflamingo effectively restrained him. Okay. Him being able to actually do something afterwards is entirely baseless. And even the restraining wouldn't happen in a fair battle.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> That doesn't logically follow. Jozu presumably empowered his fist with CoA to punch Crocodile. How is that supposed to stop whatever Doffy does to ensnare his entire body in his strings? Not that I think Armament Haki necessarily stops Doflamingo's power that clear cut anyway but if it does Jozu didn't actively fail. He didn't try. Fighting Doffy head on probably actually has more to do with deflecting and evading his strings. Maybe someone with true monster Haki like Shanks&Garp can brute force them but I don't buy the idea that Jozu would've if only he had full body CoA.



If this was the case, why couldn't Jozu simply move the Haki-coated arm and at least try to break free?

I don't fully believe Doflamingo would have such an easy time with Jozu either. I'm speaking strictly with feats and how they interacted in MF and it seems to me, Dofla was depicted as superior to the majority of the WB commanders, including Jozu.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No it doesn't. I mean, seriously? Did haki prevent Caesar Clown from suffocating Luffy? Did haki prevent the Yeti Cool Bro's from defeating Zoro? Did haki prevent Whitebeard from getting frozen by Aokiji? Did haki prevent Magellan from taking down Blackbeard's entire crew? I can go on.



What exactly is your point here? Haki has demonstrated and is implied to grant protection to some degree, not entirely. Regardless, you're the one who has to prove Jozu can simply break out of Doflamingo's strings with brute force.




> That conclusion makes no sense whatsoever as you know next to nothing about his ability, and how it works. What does make sense however is Doflamingo not just lolrestraining a person that could go toe to toe fight Aokiji - an opponent who could most likely hand Doflamingo his ass with ease.



A>b>c logic is pointless here. Doflamingo is not a conventional combatant, in a purely physical battle, Jozu would destroy him. Yet Jozu was instantly crushed by a casual attack from said Admiral, Doflamingo at least broke free.




> So you genuinely believe that Doflamingo jumped in the air, hopped on Jozu and restrained him before the latter could do anything despite being able to effectively fight an opponent _much_ stronger and faster than the birdman in CQC?



Firstly, appeal to beliefs is not an argument.

Secondly. What does speed have to do with an invisible weapon? It's made blatantly clear that Doflamingo's strings or whatever he uses aren't visible to the naked eye. Jozu tried to rush Croc. Dofla stopped him the jumped on his back. Rocket science? I don't think so.



> So Doflamingo effectively restrained him. Okay. Him being able to actually do something afterwards is entirely baseless. And even the restraining wouldn't happen in a fair battle.



Jozu can only coat a portion of his body in diamond (could be wrong, this is from memory). Doflamingo restrains him as he did on-panel, (something you've yet to disprove) and cuts his unprotected body like he did Oars.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 21, 2013)

Vista mid diff
Jozu extreme diff
Marco high diff

Vista > Marco > Jozu => Doflamingo


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

> What exactly is your point here? Haki has demonstrated and is implied to grant protection to some degree, not entirely. *Regardless, you're the one who has to prove Jozu can simply break out of Doflamingo's strings with brute force*.



Why do I have to prove it when I never made such a claim in the first place? He may or may not be able to. But that's not the point. You made the argument that haki grants protection against Devil Fruits and I simply countered your point with my own. 

What I'm arguing is that Jozu wouldn't be caught in such a manner in the first place. 



> Yet Jozu was instantly crushed by a casual attack from said Admiral, Doflamingo at least broke free.



Jozu was defeated by a lethal deep freeze (most likely Ice Time) from a serious Aokiji aiming for the kill. Doflamingo was simply flash frozen by a nonchalant Aokiji (he didn't move a single muscle), and yet his subordinates relayed that they're glad his heart wasn't frozen yet - suggesting that he was nearly taken out.

Entirely incomparable scenarios in every possible shape and form. 



> Secondly. What does speed have to do with an invisible weapon? It's made blatantly clear that Doflamingo's strings or whatever he uses aren't visible to the naked eye. Jozu tried to rush Croc. Dofla stopped him the jumped on his back. Rocket science? I don't think so.



Your initial argument was this



> Jozu was staring directly at Doflamingo and Crocodile, not to mention CoO. What Dofla did was fair game.



Which basically means that Dofla hopped on Jozu while in front of him and restrained him, to which Jozu couldn't respond at all. I can't help but laugh at this assertion as anyone who was able to legitimately keep up with Aokiji in combat would never be outmaneuvered by Doflamingo so easily in a million light years. So I logically infer that Jozu was caught off-guard.



> Jozu can only coat a portion of his body in diamond (could be wrong, this is from memory). *Doflamingo restrains him as he did on-panel*, (something you've yet to disprove) and cuts his unprotected body like he did Oars.



Aokiji also uses ice ball on Roger (you can't disprove it) and effectively traps him, winning the battle.

Doflamingo actually restraining Jozu is going to be the problem here - don't act like he'll be able to do so with such ease when they're face to face.


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## Orca (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> So you genuinely believe that Doflamingo jumped in the air, hopped on Jozu and restrained him before the latter could do anything despite being able to effectively fight an opponent much stronger and faster than the birdman in CQC?



Whether you like it or not, this is exactly what happened.


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## RF (Sep 21, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Whether you like it or not, this is exactly what happened.



So Doflamingo is able to move and attack faster than Aokiji? Good to know. I wonder why the exact opposite was shown though.


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## Akitō (Sep 21, 2013)

I favor Doflamingo if he faces Vista and Jozu, but I think he's weaker than Marco. I find it hard to imagine Doflamingo being weaker than Jozu considering his impressive portrayal during the war, and because it's very likely that Jozu's stronger than Vista, I put Doflamingo above Vista too. Having said that, I think Doflamingo's closer to Jozu than he is to Marco - it's just that him sitting on top of Jozu so casually IMO demonstrates a clear hint of superiority. Nothing conclusive can be determined with what we know of right now, but the sequence of events in the war to me trumps the Doflamingo vs. Aokiji battle in terms of significance. It's close, though.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Why do I have to prove it when I never made such a claim in the first place? He may or may not be able to. But that's not the point. You made the argument that haki grants protection against Devil Fruits and I simply countered your point with my own.



Are you saying Haki _doesn't _protect against DF abilities. Then how might you go explaining this?







> What I'm arguing is that Jozu wouldn't be caught in such a manner in the first place.



Then that's fine. As long as you accept the fact that Doflamingo has the capacity to trap Jozu without the latter breaking free.




> Jozu was defeated by a lethal deep freeze (most likely Ice Time) from a serious Aokiji aiming for the kill. Doflamingo was simply flash frozen by a nonchalant Aokiji (he didn't move a single muscle), and yet his subordinates relayed that they're glad his heart wasn't frozen yet - suggesting that he was nearly taken out.
> 
> Entirely incomparable scenarios in every possible shape and form.



Aokiji could have easily spread the ice through his legs and froze Doflamingo that way. I don't recall Aokiji moving his body increase his strength any. While I do believe Aokiji "tried" harder against Jozu, feats speak that Doflamingo could his own against an Admiral as well. Not to mention, he turned his back to said Admiral.



> Your initial argument was this
> 
> 
> 
> Which basically means that Dofla hopped on Jozu while in front of him and restrained him, to which Jozu couldn't respond at all. I can't help but laugh at this assertion as anyone who was able to legitimately keep up with Aokiji in combat would never be outmaneuvered by Doflamingo so easily in a million light years. So I logically infer that Jozu was caught off-guard.



Jozu's charging at full-speed against Crocodile. Simply stopping or changing his direction wouldn't exactly be a trivial feat. Again, Doflamingo's ability isn't exactly visible and it's not tied to his own movement/attack speed either.  For all we know those strings are faster than Aokiji's Ice attacks. You seem to be under the impression that dodging Doflamingo's strings without prior knowledge is easy.




> Aokiji also uses ice ball on Roger (you can't disprove it) and effectively traps him, winning the battle.



Legit. WB > Fodder Roger anyway 




> Doflamingo actually restraining Jozu is going to be the problem here - don't act like he'll be able to do so with such ease when they're face to face.





			
				Me said:
			
		

> I don't fully believe Doflamingo would have such an easy time with Jozu either. I'm speaking strictly with feats and how they interacted in MF



Less than 5 posts above this one. *Featwise*, Doflamingo would mid-diff him at worst. Doflamingo can react to his speed, can contain him and slash him apart. Jozu is primarily a CQC fighter with no other recourse therefore he'll be hit eventually unless you're expecting me to believe Jozu possesses the feats to dodge every last one of Doflamingo's attacks.


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## Orca (Sep 21, 2013)

@Sakazuki

It's not a matter of speed. We still don't know how doffy's strings work. 

Whether he instantly catches and controls you or whatever he does. We will hopefully get the answers during this arc.

Until then

1. Doffy restrained jozu
2. Stood casually on top of him.
3. Jozu didn't/couldn't do anything about it.

It is what it is.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 21, 2013)

Marco takes Doflamingo high or mid difficulty.
Jozu takes Doflamingo high difficulty.
Vista and Doflamingo are closer to even. I'd say extreme difficulty because it can go either way.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

DD is not mid diffing Jozu. Jozu actually lasted against Aokiji. DD's followers were happy that he was able to break free from an attack that was used by a chill Aokiji who had his hands in his pockets. Jozu got touched DD didn't. DD high diffing Jozu is debatable. DD mid diffing him only brings me to the conclusion that you're delusional.


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## Moneyshot (Sep 21, 2013)

Vista = Dofla mid/high
Jozu = Dofla high/extreme 
Marco = Either way extreme (more likely Marco wins)

I love the double standard when it comes to the Dofla Jozu and Akoiji Dofla feats.

Dofla casually stops/restrains a charging/attacking Jozu when he was arguable not paying Dofla any attention. Jozu then shows absolutely no sign of being able to break free on his own, while Dofla chills on his back. Also he does all this just to talk to croc.

Aokiji casually stops/restrains an attacking Dofla when it is 100% shown that Dofla isn't paying Aokiji any attention and doesn't give a shit that an Admiral is threatening to stop him, whilst standing right behind him no less. Dofla then breaks out on his own and walks away. Aokiji then hypes up Dofla in his exposition to smoker.

So Dofla casually stops Jozu, he can't break out, Dofla doesn't show him even enough respect to acknowledge him and it's all Jozu was caught off guard, Dofla can't hurt him, Jozu would definitely win if they actually fought, herpa derp. Whilst with the Aokiji feat he casually stops him, he does break out and Aokiji then goes on to hype up Dofla and it's all Dofla got punked, he struggled so much to get out of a casual ice attack, Aokiji just made Dofla his bitch, derpa derp.

Now I'm not saying Jozu can't win, he is impressive and we haven't seen Dofla go all out yet, but watching people twist themselves in knots trying to make two similar situations fit into their already decided power levels is funny to me 

Peace.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> *DD is not mid diffing Jozu.* Jozu actually lasted against Aokiji. DD's followers were happy that he was able to break free from an attack that was used by a chill Aokiji who had his hands in his pockets. Jozu got touched DD didn't. DD high diffing Jozu is debatable. DD mid diffing him only brings me to the conclusion that you're delusional.



Implying the opinions of fodder truly matter, for one?

Doflamingo didn't even fight Aokiji, he had his back turned the entire time and broke free whereas Jozu lost the instant he took his eyes of Kuzan. As Herr Sakazuki stated, the scenarios aren't comparable.

We do have a direct comparison with DD freezing Jozu in place with a single gesture and the latter not being capable of even moving a muscle. While an actual fight between them wouldn't end so easily, I'd say portrayal puts Doflamingo ahead.


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## Orca (Sep 21, 2013)

@Moneyshot

Great post.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 21, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> DD is not mid diffing Jozu. Jozu actually lasted against Aokiji. DD's followers were happy that he was able to break free from an attack that was used by a *chill Aokiji who had his hands in his pockets*. Jozu got touched DD didn't. DD high diffing Jozu is debatable. DD mid diffing him only brings me to the conclusion that you're delusional.



I see this stuff get tossed around a lot. Aokiji having his hands in his pockets means nothing. It's not as if it weakens him and Aokiji is always chill. What really happened was Aokiji came and told Doflamingo not to kill Smoker. Doflamingo was going to kill him anyways and Aokiji froze him. Doflamingo casually broke out and walked away.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> Implying the opinions of fodder truly matter, for one?
> 
> Doflamingo didn't even fight Aokiji, he had his back turned the entire time and broke free whereas Jozu lost the instant he took his eyes of Kuzan. As Herr Sakazuki stated, the scenarios aren't comparable.
> 
> We do have a direct comparison with DD freezing Jozu in place with a single gesture and the latter not being capable of even moving a muscle. While an actual fight between them wouldn't end so easily, I'd say portrayal puts Doflamingo ahead.



Those fodder were with DD for a long time. Fodder or not they had to have seen him fight before. All i'm saying is that DD is not mid diffing Jozu. Catching someone of guard and not being able to do anything thing to them does not show anything. He stopped Jozu great what else did he do nothing. There has to be a reason for why he didn't control him like Bellamy and Sarquiss.


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## Moneyshot (Sep 21, 2013)

Well we dnt know if he can or can't control him but I think it's pretty obvious why he didn't at that particular time; he didn't want to/try to. All he wanted to do was talk to croc, making Jozu move would of been counter productive to that.  I mean he did control another WB commander so it's not crazy to think he could do it to Jozu.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I see this stuff get tossed around a lot. Aokiji having his hands in his pockets means nothing. It's not as if it weakens him and Aokiji is always chill. What really happened was Aokiji came and told Doflamingo not to kill Smoker. Doflamingo was going to kill him anyways and Aokiji froze him. Doflamingo casually broke out and walked away.



Yes panting from breaking out of an attack means that you did it casually. My point is that Aokiji didn't even touch DD. If he touched him like he touched Jozu it would have been over for DD. Unless you think that an unnamed attack with no intent to kill that also was used without moving a muscle is comparable to an attack that needed contact. Casually breaking out of an attack is WB when he broke out of Aokiji's attack easily. DD started panting then ran away because he knew if he continued the fight he would have become an ice sculpture. If Aokiji was bloodlusted he would not have let DD run away. Walking away is Mihawk after his encounter with Vista when Vista excepted a stalemate. Running away is DD because he knows that he'll get beat if he fights Aokjji. MIhawk wouldn't have been beaten by Vista. @ Moneyshot If he could he would.


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## Mys??lf (Sep 21, 2013)

Marco and Jozu win . Vista vs Doflamingo can go either way but I am leaning towards DD


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Those fodder were with DD for a long time. Fodder or not they had to have seen him fight before.


They don't know how powerful Aokiji's attacks are because they've never experienced it. Doflamingo was frozen entirely and Aokiji's an Admiral, there's a cause for concern. 



> All i'm saying is that DD is not mid diffing Jozu. Catching someone of guard and not being able to do anything thing to them does not show anything. He stopped Jozu great what else did he do nothing.



Yet you're willing to use Doflamingo being frozen with his back turned as factual evidence? As for what Doflamingo would do should he entrap Jozu.



> Jozu's diamond body is only a partial transformation last I checked. Dofla cuts his human body to shreds and watches him bleed to death.





> There has to be a reason for why he didn't control him like Bellamy and Sarquiss.



Yeah, he was talking to Croc and needed a stool.


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## Slenderman (Sep 21, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> They don't know how powerful Aokiji's attacks are because they've never experienced it. Doflamingo was frozen entirely and Aokiji's an Admiral, there's a cause for concern.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He could have just standed. But there's not a lot of evidence for both of us so let's just agree to disagree because this could go on for days.


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## Orca (Sep 21, 2013)

He didn't just standed. Doffy made him stand.


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## Coruscation (Sep 21, 2013)

> If this was the case, why couldn't Jozu simply move the Haki-coated arm and at least try to break free?



If what was the case? Haki (emphasis on) may be able to prevent getting caught. That's an entirely different thing from breaking free once you are caught. You might as well say Haki can't guard against being burned by Akainu because Whitebeard got burned. Pointless to compare apples and oranges when we're discussing hypotheticals in the first place.


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## Sablés (Sep 21, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> If what was the case? *Haki (emphasis on) may be able to prevent getting caught.* That's an entirely different thing from breaking free once you are caught. You might as well say Haki can't guard against being burned by Akainu because Whitebeard got burned. Pointless to compare apples and oranges when we're discussing hypotheticals in the first place.



Bolded is what I was referring to. Assuming Jozu chose to reinforce his diamond plating with Haki when he assaulted Croc, that portion should have been able to withstand Doflamingo's DF and would have granted him some free movement however we see nothing of the sort as Doflamingo stops him completely.

That being said, I also realize that the nature of Doflamingo's powers are still unclear and would lead to wrongful speculation. I'm willing to concede this point.


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## Freechoice (Sep 22, 2013)

I don't know about Vista, but Doflamingo isn't beating Jozu and definitely not Marco.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 22, 2013)

Doflamingo beating Vista is a joke lol, Vista fought on par with an  admiral level+ fighter and Doflamingo got treated like trash by another.
Vista hasnt even been tagged yet.


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## Freechoice (Sep 22, 2013)

Yeah for all we know, Vista is the second best swordsman.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 22, 2013)

Yes, Shanks and Vista are both competitors for second best swordsman.


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## tanman (Sep 22, 2013)

Marco takes Doflamingo high difficulty. Marco has a plentiful cushion of feats against admirals to fall back on unlike Doflamingo.

Doflamingo/Jozu is 51/49 for me. I've gone into this time and time again, but for me it just comes down to looking at the relationship that was portrayed. There's not much else we can go by. It's silly to say they're not close in strength. Jozu is not invulnerable, just as Doflamingo is not infallible. Water and environmental/elemental damage still effect Jozu (these are things that Doflamingo is very much capable of causing) and proper defensive measures from Jozu can likely prevent an easy capture. 

Doflamingo takes Vista with high difficulty. And that's being rather generous in Vista's favor.


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## Shinthia (Sep 22, 2013)

Scenario 1: Doflamingo for sure
 Scenario 2: can go either way
Scenario 3: Marco for sure


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I think that the touch is needed if Kiji wants to deep freeze someone.



An opinion.



> Kiji also had to come in close proximity of the wave to freeze it.



No he didn't.





> Also all of WB's attacks are unnamed. Just like Law's slash against Vergo. It probably was his strongest but it was unnamed.



That's my point.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

I think you may be autistic if you believe that Aokiji putting his hand on Jozu and freezing him is not different from Aokiji's generic blast of cold from afar.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I think you may be autistic if you believe that Aokiji putting his hand on Jozu and freezing him is not different from Aokiji's generic blast of cold from afar.



1) Leave the autistic out of this. You know nothing about them.

2) Scans that prove that Aokiji *has* to touch someone for stronger attacks or gtfo.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

I need scans? Can't I use logic? He touched someone whenever he tried to finish the said person. Saul/Robin/Luffy/Jozu. The only person he _didn't_ touch is Doflamingo, and surprisingly, he didn't try to do any harm to him.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I need scans?



Wonderful arguement, friend. Tell me more.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

If your definition of "proof" trasnlates into 100% irrefutable and undeniable evidence then you can go screw yourself, to be frank. We wouldn't even be debating this matter, if it was written on paper.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 22, 2013)

1) vs Vista - Dofla mid diff
2) vs Jozu - Dofla high diff
3) vs Marco - 50/50 either way. Difficult to call it.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> If your definition of "proof" trasnlates into 100% irrefutable and undeniable evidence then you can go screw yourself, to be frank. We wouldn't even be debating this matter, if it was written on paper.



What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. If you want to make the claim, you have to prove it. I'll be waiting.

I didn't answer this before, but when he frose the water around the plaza and WB's huge waves that were going to destroy Marineford without touching them... it looked pretty powerful.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Whenever Aokiji tried to finish someone, he did it with a touch. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that he would touch his opponents when he can freeze them just as easily, when not moving a muscle. 

You can believe that all of Aokiji's attacks are equally powerful, sure. I can also believe that Marco can fodderize admirals because they haven't shown the ability to hurt him, despite it being crystal clear that they can. But in the end, one is much more likely to be correct than the other.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Whenever Aokiji tried to finish someone, he did it with a touch. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that he would touch his opponents when he can freeze them just as easily, when not moving a muscle.
> 
> You can believe that all of Aokiji's attacks are equally powerful, sure. I can also believe that Marco can fodderize admirals because they haven't shown the ability to hurt him, despite it being crystal clear that they can. But in the end, one is much more likely to be correct than the other.



Game. Set. Match.

And Kizaru did hurt Marco.


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## trance (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki defending his WB commanders in spite of his username.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Game. Set. Match.
> 
> And Kizaru did hurt Marco.





Yeah, with seastone.


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## Vengeance (Sep 22, 2013)

Doflamingo vs Vista: Doflamingo high-very high difficulty.
Doflamingo vs Jozu: can go either way imo.
Doflamingo vs Marco: Marco very high difficulty.

On the Aokiji thing: We can not 100% prove that he acutally needs to touch someone to perfom a stronger freeze attack, but it is not  far to seek.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

Holy fuck. To think someone was _this_ stubborn. Get a load of this, guy, I am not _supposed_ to bring facts here. Because if I had _facts_, a debate would not happen in the first place. This is about making conclusions based an all accountable feats and logic. That's the point of a debate. There are 2 possibilities here. One has a very strong basis and it's fairly logical, the other has next to no basis and makes zero sense. I'm not the type of person that clogs up posts with *IMO'S* when making a _painfully obvious_ assertion just because it is not proven. I don't care if you have a problem with that. I won't change it. Deal with it.

The only thing I see is Marco taking a laser to the back and then regenerating in the next chapter remaining scratchless.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

> Holy fuck. To think someone was this stubborn. Get a load of this, guy, I am not supposed to bring facts here. Because if I had facts, a debate would not happen in the first place. This is about making conclusions based an all accountable feats and logic. That's the point of a debate. There are 2 possibilities here. One has a very strong basis and it's fairly logical, the other has next to no basis and makes zero sense. I'm not the type of person that clogs up posts with IMO'S when making a painfully obvious assertion just because it is not proven. I don't care if you have a problem with that. I won't change it. Deal with it.



Get this through your head Sakazuki. I don't give a shit. Believe what you want. But don't come here and call me autistic for thinking differently from you. That's annoying.

And Jozu froze an island level attack without touching it so your argument is bs.



> The only thing I see is Marco taking a laser to the back and then regenerating in the next chapter remaining scratchless.



 The blood from his mouth? Jozu and other WB pirates calling out his name because they're worried. Yeah. Nice troll, bud. Try harder next time.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

> Get this through your head Sakazuki. I don't give a shit. Believe what you want. But don't come here and call me autistic for thinking differently from you. That's annoying.



I may have gotten harsh on words, but I'm appalled that the author has to spell out _everything_ for the readers and that a person can't confidently make an assertion despite it not being proven 100%. 

That's just a really, really bad cop-out, I could question hundreds of things in the manga which we don't have direct proof for, but I don't because they're obvious. 



> And Jozu froze an island level attack without touching it so your argument is bullshit.



I assume you meant Aokiji....? 

He extended his hands to freeze the tsunami.



> The blood from his mouth? Jozu and other WB pirates calling out his name because they're worried. Yeah. Nice troll, bud. Try harder next time.



I also see Marco regenerating the next chapter without a single issue. Never said that the admirals could not hurt him, as in, he'd just shrug off all their attacks without pain, _everyone_ can hurt him, I was implying that they would not be able to get past his regeneration.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I may have gotten harsh on words, but I'm appalled that the author has to spell out _everything_ for the readers and that a person can't confidently make an assertion despite it not being proven 100%.
> 
> That's just a really, really bad cop-out, I could question hundreds of things in the manga which we don't have direct proof for, but I don't because they're obvious.



This is getting annoying. Let's agree to disagree.



> I assume you meant Aokiji....?
> 
> He extended his hands to freeze the tsunami.



Who else froze waves in OP?

He didn't touch it.



> I also see Marco regenerating the next chapter without a single issue. Never said that the admirals could not hurt him, as in, he'd just shrug off all their attacks without pain, _everyone_ can hurt him, I was implying that they would not be able to get past his regeneration.



What do I even say to this.


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## Vengeance (Sep 22, 2013)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Who else froze waves in OP?
> 
> He didn't touch it.



He made a direct connection to the waves using his arms, something that he apparently didn't do with DD

*Spoiler*: __


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

> He didn't touch it.



He extended his hands and froze it. 



> What do I even say to this.



He took 2 lasers to the back, coughed up blood, and then continued running the next chapter after regenerating. And this was when he was off-guard. Kizaru didn't even show the ability to legitimately damage an on-guard Marco with a shower of lasers, and you can't PROOOOOVE that he is able to do so, so I must be right.

I was merely using your logic, don't sweat it.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

> He extended his hands and froze it.



You said touch. He didn't touch it.



> He took 2 lasers to the back, coughed up blood, and then continued running the next chapter after regenerating. And this was when he was off-guard. Kizaru didn't even show the ability to legitimately damage an on-guard Marco with a shower of lasers, and you can't PROOOOOVE that he is able to do so, so I must be right.
> 
> I was merely using your logic, don't sweat it.



You're tripping over yourself to rationalize this. First with seastone now this.



> *I can also believe that Marco can fodderize admirals because they haven't shown the ability to hurt him,* despite it being crystal clear that they can. But in the end, one is much more likely to be correct than the other.





> *He took 2 lasers to the back, coughed up blood,* and then continued running the next chapter after regenerating. And this was when he was off-guard. Kizaru didn't even show the ability to legitimately damage an on-guard Marco with a shower of lasers, and you can't PROOOOOVE that he is able to do so, so I must be right.
> 
> I was merely using your logic, don't sweat it.



You admitted they can hurt him so drop it.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

> You said touch. He didn't touch it.



He extended his hands. Basically the same thing.



> You admitted they can hurt him so drop it.





> I also see Marco regenerating the next chapter without a single issue. *Never said that the admirals could not hurt him, as in, he'd just shrug off all their attacks without pain, everyone can hurt him, I was implying that they would not be able to get past his regeneration*.


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## Admiral Fujitorax (Sep 22, 2013)

Goomoonryong said:


> Scenario 1: Doflamingo wins probably high diff
> 
> Scenario 2: Doflamingo wins extreme difficulty
> 
> Scenario 3: Marco wins high diff


i 2nd this


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## Law (Sep 22, 2013)

S1: Vista extreme difficulty
S2: Jozu high difficulty
S3: Marco mid difficulty


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## Dunno (Sep 22, 2013)

1: Doflamingo high diff. 
2: Doflamingo high diff. 
3: Could go either way, depending on how their powers match up.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

So you think Doflamingo is the strength of an admiral?


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 22, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He extended his hands. Basically the same thing.



No. No it's not.

And for the other part... I quoted your original post. That's not what you said originally. You said that they couldn't hurt him. I said that they could. You said with Kairoseki. I showed that they hurt him before Onigumo slapped Kairoseki on his wrists.


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## Slenderman (Sep 22, 2013)

Of course DD has the strength of an admiral he easily broke out of the ice and he could have pushed Kuzan to extreme difficulty. This guy.


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## RF (Sep 22, 2013)

> No. No it's not.



Yes, yes it is. Just like Dai Funka, Hiken or just about any other occassion when logias extend their actual bodies.



> And for the other part... I quoted your original post. That's not what you said originally. You said that they couldn't hurt him. I said that they could. You said with Kairoseki. I showed that they hurt him before Onigumo slapped Kairoseki on his wrists.



They couldn't put any permanent harm on him without Kairoseki.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 24, 2013)

Vista high-extrem high diff
Jozu mid-high diff
Marco mid diff at max


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## Freechoice (Sep 24, 2013)

People still think Doflamingo can beat Jozu


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## Lord Stark (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Marineford
> IC
> 100m
> 
> ...




Scenario 1:  Doflamingo mid-high difficulty

Scenario 2:  Doflamingo high difficulty due to the location, he could hypothetically throw him into the sea.

Scenario 3:  Marco the Phoenix high difficulty.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes, yes it is. Just like Dai Funka, Hiken or just about any other occassion when logias extend their actual bodies.



Except he didn't physically stretch his body out. He created a bridge using Ice.



Moving goal posts.



> They couldn't put any permanent harm on him without Kairoseki.



Moving goal posts again. That's not what you said.


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