# Darth Plagueis vs Darth Krayt



## Fang (Feb 9, 2012)

How does this go? This is Plagueis at his peak, same with Krayt.


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## TehChron (Feb 9, 2012)

lol

Krayt in Legacy War would have been stomped by Revan or Bane alone. And even the gatekeepers of Bane/Andeddu/Nihilus were enough to seriously fuck him over.

Plagueis is a damn beast, and would wreck Krayt horribly. Only Sith that surpassed him was Sidious, right? Well, no one refers to Krayt as "the Great" so he's clearly not at the prerequisite level to take down Plagueis.


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## Es (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm betting he gives him the Venamis treatment after all is said and done


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## Ceria (Feb 9, 2012)

Es said:


> I'm betting he gives him the Venamis treatment after all is said and done



What self respecting sith scientist wouldn't want a former jedi knight turned sith lord covered in extra galactic vong coral armor to experiment with? 

Just as Plagueis said, a jedi turned sith lord will never be able to claim full mastery of the dark.


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## Endless Mike (Feb 9, 2012)

Krayt loses badly


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 9, 2012)

Krayt gets squashed, even after being reborn.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Feb 9, 2012)

Darth Plagueis at his peak could likely overpower Krayt via The Force.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 9, 2012)

Plagueis' knowledge and power in the Force plus his saber skills make this a pretty easy battle for him 

Insultingly easy, I'd say


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 9, 2012)

TehChron said:


> And even the gatekeepers of Bane/Andeddu/Nihilus were enough to seriously fuck him over.



You mean a dying Krayt was temporarily annoyed by some illusions before he told tem all to fuck off?

And his inferior, Wyyrlock, managed to defeat the actual Andeddu while he (Wyyrlock) was owned by Krayt at full power?

The ability Krayt learned from Cade would be more than enough to own most Sith.


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## strongarm85 (Feb 10, 2012)

Plagus is one of the most powerful Sith Lords that ever lived. He would make Darth Krayt his bitch.


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## mali (Feb 10, 2012)

Darth Cubey gets destroyed.

Plageuis explains to him how much of a sith failure he is and how useless he is. Then Annadedus, Nihilus and Banes holocrons appear out of knowhere and lol at his shittyness.

Darth Cubey then slits his wrists and dies.


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> The ability Krayt learned from Cade would be more than enough to own most Sith.


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

Unless Andeddu is on the same level as Darth Plagueis Krayt could hold his own. 






But considering the spitish nature of this matchup and difference in power levels Krayt loses terribly.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 10, 2012)

The ability to see any and all weak spots in an opponent and then kill them is pretty handy. Not like Dooku or Malak or the like could really do anything about it.

Tell me Es, did you even read Legacy? Do you have the slightest clue about what happens in it?

Either way, this thread is just immature spite and reported.


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)

Are you frustrated?


> The ability to see any and all weak spots in an opponent and then kill them is pretty handy. Not like Dooku or Malak or the like could really do anything about it.
> 
> Tell me Es, did you even read Legacy? Do you have the slightest clue about what happens in it?



I'm quite familiar, what can he do against people like Sidious or Plagueis, The Sith Emperor or even Vivicar who could make him his babbling thrall?


> Either way, this thread is just immature spite and reported.


Oh please like the Anime/Manga dome doesn't have a hundred of them


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

@E.S.

Trollololo knock it off.


lock this someone.


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## Fang (Feb 10, 2012)

I like how he never ever indicated to have Shatterpoints on a level of Luke, Windu, or Jacen/Caedus but he still presumes that he does and would "solo" most Sith Lords even though that's never happening.

Plus Anaddeu never appearing alive or at his peak doesn't make the joke of Wrrylock being a match for him real nor powerscales to Krayt.


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)

Bender said:


> @E.S.
> 
> Trollololo knock it off.
> 
> ...



Bender if you look closely you can see I posted my rebuttal

I also find it hilarious you of all people are accusing me of trolling


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

Fang said:


> I like how he never ever indicated to have Shatterpoints on a level of Luke, Windu, or Jacen/Caedus but he still presumes that he does and would "solo" most Sith Lords even though that's never happening.



Okay, but here's the fact of the matter: you made a SPITE thread. If you know that then what the hell with this thread?



> Plus Anaddeu never appearing alive or at his peak doesn't make the joke of Wrrylock being a match for him real nor powerscales to Krayt.



You forget that Krayt was also able to hold his own against Karness Murr. Or are you telling me that he is a joke too?

It doesn't matter this is a spite thread.


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## Fang (Feb 10, 2012)

One time I'll respond ever to Bender:

It's not a spite thread. Plagueis is at his peak, so is Krayt which includes the latter not having to deal with the Vong bio-armor trying to consume him and includes his War power-up. Secondly none of the actual SW fans in the OBD care about Krayt so stop trying to cause drama.


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)

> You forget that Krayt was also able to hold his own against Karness Murr. Or are you telling me that he is a joke too?
> 
> It doesn't matter this is a spite thread.


Didn't he get his shit kicked in?
You make retarded threads constantly Bender


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

> with the Vong bio-armor trying to consume him and includes his War power-up.



If this was with his Vong bio armor I would further chide you. 




> Secondly none of the actual SW fans in the OBD care about Krayt so stop trying to cause drama.



Last time I checked popularity was never one of the key factors to making a match-up. What's important is making it even and not making ridiculously one-sided. And if Plagueis is indeed that powerful in his prime then this match-up is a farce.


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

Es said:


> Didn't he get his shit kicked in?



No, he was giving Celeste Morne who was possessed by Karness Muur somewhat of a run for the money. Seeing this Azylyn Rae came up from behind and impaled him with her lightsaber and was also electrocuted by Celeste Morne's force lightning.

@  E.S. personal attacks


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm simply criticizing your thread match ups


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## Bender (Feb 10, 2012)

@E.S.

Yeah, that's a personal attack genius.


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## Es (Feb 10, 2012)




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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 10, 2012)

Es said:


> Are you frustrated?



No.



> I'm quite familiar, what can he do against people like Sidious or Plagueis, The Sith Emperor or even Vivicar who could make him his babbling thrall?



He couldn't beat them.

And while I have Fang on Ignore I couldn't help but see his quote in Bender's post.

Cade's move is far superior to Shatterpoints since it's both a healing and destructive tool. 
Cade was saving people from death when he was a child and he only improved on the technique later on. 

Sith like Maul, Dooku, Revan and Bane, they have absolutely no counter to the move. The best you could hope for is some sort of mindrape but most mid and low tier Sith don't really have many feats in that regard.

And before you say they outduel him, even before his Sith training Hett gave post-ROTS Kenobi a decent fight. In fact, Obi-Wan only won through a Force push and not just dueling ability. That's quite a feat for the pre-Sith Krayt since Obi-Wan is certainly one of the most gifted lightsaber duelists of the PT.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying he can win here or against Palpatien or Exar Kun or Nihilus or whatever.


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## Fang (Feb 10, 2012)

Its refreshing to know your still wrong.

Bane has no counter to Shatterpoint from Krayt/Cade? He simply pummels them with Force Waves and Crushes. Or beats their head in with his lightsaber. Or crushing Force Barriers even passively.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 11, 2012)

Fang said:


> Its refreshing to know your still wrong.
> 
> Bane has no counter to Shatterpoint from Krayt/Cade? He simply pummels them with Force Waves and Crushes. Or beats their head in with his lightsaber. Or crushing Force Barriers even passively.


Bane's strong, sure, but he had a lot of...PIS helping him remember?


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## Tranquil Fury (Feb 11, 2012)

> Dooku



Unless we remember that:
-One of the best Jedi in the Order's history+10 years in dark side
-TK teacher in the academy
-One of the best duelist in the order's history
-Trained many swordsman and force users
-Has almost over half a century of a career and experience
-Can engage multiple skilled force users at once including Ventress
-Can survive a fight from 800 year Grandmaster Yoda

Along with his other feats. Dooku is going to just stand there now?

Muur?He wanted a stronger body than Celeste he tries to convince her to give the amulet to Vader and I think he even tries with Luke, he brags about how in his prime he killed stronger Sith but he could just be bragging. Muur in his prime is featless to begin with other than creating the Rakghoul Plague and knowing Sith sorcery. Why even mention an unquantifiable whose not at full power and searching for body to boot?Krayt is'nt the weakest but by no means is he comparing to legendary ones even post revival.



> And before you say they outduel him, even before his Sith training Hett gave post-ROTS Kenobi a decent fight. In fact, Obi-Wan only won through a Force push and not just dueling ability



No, the force would have made a bigger mess and it's confirmed through Jan Duursem the artist, that he lost fairly in the duel not through the force


> "…the arm was not Force pulled off. Certainly would be a lot messier than the surgical precision of a lightsaber. Probably bleed to death though…"



Kenobi tried to reason with him but it failed so he cut the guys hand off and chose not to kill him. Kenobi was'nt trying to kill him, A'Sharad Hett was, he still lost. 

Yeah Cade knows shatterpoints, his father's force ghost probably taught him, they are both from Luke's line of the Skywalkers and he probably passed the tech on through the family. Krayt claimed to have the same power after he came back but regardless,you think just having shatterpoints makes you better than someone who does'nt? . 



> Revan and Bane



Are they going to standstill and let him hit them?Revan solo'd a mini army then bested Malak, Bane is worshipped as a deity by the Baneite Sith for a 1,000 years and he's certainly amassed more knowledge than Krayt, he does'nt have shatterpoints or that Plagueis/Cade/Krayt power to stop people from dying but then neither do Sidious or Exar or Nihilus and I don't think you're going to argue he can beat them.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 11, 2012)

I said Obi-Wan beat him with a Force Push, not that he blew his arm off with the Force.
When it came to just lightsabers Hett was matching Kenobi so Kenobi used TK to gain the upper hand.

And no, having Shatterpoints doesn't give you an autowin. What Cade can do however is much better and pretty dam handy. Most Sith, who wet themselves when it comes to death, would have loved the power to resurrect the dead or to manipulate an opponents' every weakness with a simple application of Force power.

As for learning it from a Force ghost...that's a pretty absurd theory with no actual basis. Cade's power is not just Shatterpoint.


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## Platinum (Feb 11, 2012)

Darth Cubert gets his ass beat. That's all there is to say on this matter.


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## Tranquil Fury (Feb 11, 2012)

Force ghosts can't teach people?What?they just have to pass down their knowledge like a normal master who'd instruct their apprentice(Luke in DE even states he's learnt from the force ghosts of Yoda and Kenobi, Kyle also learnt new techs under force ghosts amongst other examples)physical body is'nt needed to explain the mechanics of a power,regardless how he learnt it is not relevant. I agreed he knows it, just speculated on how he may have learnt it. 



> What Cade can do however is much better and pretty dam handy. Most Sith, who wet themselves when it comes to death, would have loved the power to resurrect the dead or to manipulate an opponents' every weakness with a simple application of Force power



Plenty of powers are handy even basic force lightning, especially strong ones like those from Sidious or Bane. Not auto win ability just because TK or force lightning or combining both like say Dooku is handy. What does Sith wanting this power have to do with you claiming he could beat Bane and the like with it?Plagueis had a similar power to stop death, ressurect, heal himself or kill. In the end, *he could still die* and as Sidious notes, it's much harder keeping one alive when under attack by strong force power, hence why Plagueis dies despite trying to heal himself. "He could save others from dying but not himself" and the offensive version is no instant win ability. The power to prolong lifespan is a desired power for Sith but *you were referencing it's offense capability against other Sith lord for a win in a fight*, completely different point.

He was a strong Jedi and good duelist like most PT era Jedi and he does come back much stronger with more knowledge but Bane level or above would be pushing it. Plagueis still wins this.


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## Palpatine (Feb 11, 2012)

Plagueis was one of the most powerful and intelligent Sith lords ever. He wastes Krayt with ease.


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## Darth Xanatos (Feb 11, 2012)

Are people seriously argueing that Krayt can beat Plagueis?
I?d say Plagueis is just slightly below people like Sidious and Vitiate, in certain areas he was even more knowledgeable than them. Krayt isn`t beating him.


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## mali (Feb 11, 2012)

Nope, just some people bawwing at the fact that Krayt is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 11, 2012)

Mali said:


> Nope, just some people bawwing at the fact that Krayt is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


Cute. Using homophobia to degrade a character. Real, real classy.

Krayt got a huge increase in power after he _resurrected himself_.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Cute. Using homophobia to degrade a character. Real, real classy.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-Ct8J0LT0[/YOUTUBE]


> Krayt got a huge increase in power after he _resurrected himself_.


You do realize everyone has kept that in mind for this entire thread?

His huge increase in power doesn't equate to beating numerous Sith Lords that still make him a joke by comparison.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-Ct8J0LT0[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> You do realize everyone has kept that in mind for this entire thread?
> 
> His huge increase in power doesn't equate to beating numerous Sith Lords that still make him a joke by comparison.




Darth Plagueis manipulating midichrlorians and founding Palpatine who so many SW fans are gay for doesn't make him all that. 

And this SPITE thread STILL has yet to be closed.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> Darth Plagueis manipulating midichrlorians and founding Palpatine who so many SW fans are gay for doesn't make him all that.


Funny how no one is suggesting that as their argument for why Darth Plagueis wins as clearly butthurt claims go.


> And this SPITE thread STILL has yet to be closed.



Two Sith Lords fight at their peak as stipulated in the OP. Buck up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> His huge increase in power doesn't equate to beating numerous Sith Lords that still make him a joke by comparison.


Even though he defeated Wyyrlok who owned Annenedu?

Edit: And I said Plagueis wins. I'm just saying Krayt has a better chance than his haters here are saying.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> Funny how no one is suggesting that as their argument for why Darth Plagueis wins as clearly butthurt claims go.



I don't need to scrounge through the thread posts to know why people love Darth Plagueis so much. 



> Two Sith Lords fight at their peak as stipulated in the OP. Buck up.




And it's still clear that Plagueis at his prime has far more power than Darth Krayt which the OP knowing that, still posted this thread.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though he defeated Wyyrlok who owned Annenedu?


Are you suggesting that a suddenly resurrected Annenedu with it made clear the only power he had was through his mind and how his duel was utterly based on mind attacks in any way makes Krayt capable of doing  even 1/4th that much to someone like Darth Plagueis?


Bender said:


> I don't need to scrounge through the thread posts to know why people love Darth Plagueis so much.


We get it, you're butthurt. Repetitive whine doesn't hide this.


> And it's still clear that Plagueis at his prime has far more power than Darth Krayt which the OP knowing that, still posted this thread.



While people in this thread have attempted to make an argument that it's more of a fight than others would think. It's not much of a spite thread when one side isn't dying from a blink of the eye or shrug.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though he defeated Wyyrlok who owned Annenedu?



Exactly. People are underrating Krayt so much it's not even funny

Darth Krayt's feats

-Successfully established a genuine non-shitty relationship between master and apprentice which was enacted by Darth Bane and Plagueis pledged to rid the world of. He failed spectacularly
-Darth Krayt was only killed once and came back from it. Darth Sidious was killed three times (not implying he is better than Palpatine fanboys) Darth Plagueis was killed once and didn't come back from it.
-Darth Krayt was able to sense that Morrigane Corde(Cade's father) was a spy. Darth Plagueis was unable to sense Palpatine's intentions.
-Darth Krayt was able to make his presence felt by everyone in the force. He didn't play cat and mouse with the jedi order like Palpatine did.
-Krayt was able to feel Cade usage of the power "Dark Transference" from across the the galaxy


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> Are you suggesting that a suddenly resurrected Annenedu with it made clear the only power he had was through his mind and how his duel was utterly based on mind attacks in any way makes Krayt capable of doing  even 1/4th that much to someone like Darth Plagueis?



Does Darth Plagueis know how to come back from death? 

Does Darth Plagueis know about the shatterpoints

Is Darth Plagueis able to sense the intentions of another person(like Krayt sensed Morrigan Corde's)?

If not I'm not impressed. 

The only thing he did that does impress me is his manipulation of the midichlorians creating Anakin.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> -Successfully established a genuine non-shitty relationship between master and apprentice which was enacted by Darth Bane and Plagueis pledged to rid the world of. He failed spectacularly



Pretty sure that not creating an even more impressive apprentice to take your place is a failure all around when the point is the make the Sith lineage stronger.


> -Darth Krayt was only killed once and came back from it. Darth Sidious was killed three times (not implying he is better than Palpatine fanboys) Darth Plagueis was killed once and didn't come back from it.


So, Krayt was killed by something comparable to Darth Sidious then? You seem to misunderstand this little thing called context.


> -Darth Krayt was able to sense that Morrigane Corde(Cade's father) was a spy. Darth Plagueis was unable to sense Palpatine's intentions.


Whoa. Where do I start? Besides the fact that Morrigane Corde is a woman, you're suggesting that Morrigane Corde is somehow comparable or better than Palpatine who pulled off feats in hiding his intent and force power manipulation  that Morrigane pulled off since when?


> -Darth Krayt was able to make his presence felt by everyone in the force. He didn't play cat and mouse with the jedi order like Palpatine did.


In other words, you once again mess up with the concept of context when Palpatine was able to leave the entire Jedi Council blind. Every force user noticing the presence of a Sith Lord throughout a galaxy or just simply feeling the death of a force user that matters, none of this means much of a feat. Might as well make a big deal out of people hearing you yell in the same room.


> -Krayt was able to feel Cade usage of the power "Dark Transference" from across the the galaxy


Read above. Especially when you're suggesting that any Sith Lord of comparable or greater power that doesn't happen to be alive at the time wouldn't be able to.

Darth Nihilus among many other strong Sith Lords didn't know shatterpoints. Are you suggesting that not knowing shatterpoints means you will always lose to someone who does no matter what? Is Darth Traya also going to beat Sidious now?

All in all, none of this even begins to mean much for an actual duel.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> Does Darth Plagueis know how to come back from death?
> 
> Does Darth Plagueis know about the shatterpoints
> 
> ...


Bender baby


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## Ceria (Feb 11, 2012)

Did darth krayt team up with another equally powerful sith lord and influence the force to create a rise in the dark side? The answer to that is no. 

The will of two sith lords compelled the midiclorians into forming a rise in the darkside, which in turn created anakin skywalker as the force tried to balance itself out. 

The only reason that he lost to sidious was the fact that he had gotten shitfaced the night prior to palpatine winning the chancellorship, he was passed out. It was probably the only moment of weakness during palpatine's apprenticeship, except for when Hego was almost assassinated, but palpatine was still weaker than him in that point of the story.

Bender should read Plagueis.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

More like he should just bother to read.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

@ Ceria, Neodragzero,Fluttershy

I read Darth Plagueis story regardless he should known of Palpatine's treachery beforehand. Anyone could tell that he had his own agenda. Darth Krayt constantly had his guard up and didn't let anyone get too close to him.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> Pretty sure that not creating an even more impressive apprentice to take your place is a failure all around when the point is the make the Sith lineage stronger.



Krayt worked in number rather than in force like Palpatine did. So what if he was able to have a brilliant power like creating a force storm. That doesn't mean shit if he doesn't have an insane number of Sith to be around should he die(and he did in fact DIE). Krayt's forces were able to stay alive until Luke Skywalker passed away. 



> So, Krayt was killed by something comparable to Darth Sidious then? You seem to misunderstand this little thing called context.



"So Krayt was killed by something comparable"? Who cares if he wasn't. If anything Krayt's final death was somewhat similar to Palpatine's since Cade had the aid of Luke's spirit to drive Krayt away and prevent him from transferring his spirit into him when Cade sent his ship with his body into the sun.

Also at least Krayt's first death wasn't being tossed off a platform into oblivion like Palpatine. 



> Whoa. Where do I start? *Besides the fact that Morrigane Corde is a woman*



You have no idea how sexist that sounds. Lumiya is a woman and yet she was able to twist and turn Jacen to her whim.



> , you're suggesting that Morrigane Corde is somehow comparable or better than Palpatine who pulled off feats in hiding his intent and force power manipulation



Palpatine doesn't get kudos for hiding his agenda if his teacher was shitfaced before killing him.




> In other words, you once again mess up with the concept of context when Palpatine was able to leave the entire Jedi Council blind.



Krayt killed the entire jedi council of his era to the point there are only a few left behind. Krayt fucking over Darth Bane's rule of two allowed  him to have firepower to make mincemeat of the jedi and not resort to trickery in order to fuck over the jedi. 



> Every force user noticing the presence of a Sith Lord throughout a galaxy or just simply feeling the death of a force user that matters, none of this means much of a feat.



Krayt being able to sense the power of another force user is also plenty a feat.






> Darth Nihilus among many other strong Sith Lords didn't know shatterpoints. Are you suggesting that not knowing shatterpoints means you will always lose to someone who does no matter what?



I never said that; I'm merely saying it's an accomplishment in itself that he was able to learn such a difficult force power.


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## Es (Feb 11, 2012)

Palpatine was masking his intent from the start though


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

Es said:


> Palpatine was masking his intent from the start



Which is why I think it sucked. 



> , not to mention he waited until Plagueis was drunk and had his guard down.



I know of that genius.


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## Fang (Feb 11, 2012)

I really doubt he's read any Star Wars novel when he claimed that Cade's mother is his father/a man. Its seriously giving SasuOna/Raigen vibes on trying to establish his credibility in this thread or in Star Wars general with the Expanded Universe. Then tries to defend it with some magical claim of Neodragzero claiming chauvinism.

This is seriously bad.

As bad as the claim that Lumiya seduced Jacen when the retconned insert in the SWU establishes that his sojourn after the NJO series ends and the encounter with Abeloth is what made Jacen turn into Caedus in the first place.


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## Ceria (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> @ Ceria, Neodragzero,Fluttershy
> 
> I read Darth Plagueis story regardless he should known of Palpatine's treachery beforehand. Anyone could tell that he had his own agenda. Darth Krayt constantly had his guard up and didn't let anyone get too close to him.



Okay, 

i think luceno failed to build palpatine's agenda, at least from an internal aspect it felt too out of left field.


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## Es (Feb 11, 2012)

> Which is why I think it sucked.


This is the same guy who masked his dark side presence the entire Jedi order


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> Krayt worked in number rather than in force like Palpatine did. So what if he was able to have a brilliant power like creating a force storm. That doesn't mean shit if he doesn't have an insane number of Sith to be around should he die(and he did in fact DIE). Krayt's forces were able to stay alive until Luke Skywalker passed away.





You really don't know much about the EU stuff when it comes to Palpatine and his empire. For one thing, there were numerous dark siders within the Galactic Empire. You really didn't know that Palpatine had numerous Sith types running around?

And seriously, stop with the goofy typos.


> "So Krayt was killed by something comparable"? Who cares if he wasn't. If anything Krayt's final death was somewhat similar to Palpatine's since Cade had the aid of Luke's spirit to drive Krayt away and prevent him from transferring his spirit into him when Cade sent his ship with his body into the sun.


I believe when making a comparison, a contrast would present a problem with that attempt. Once again, getting killed by Darth Sidious means a lot.


> Also at least Krayt's first death wasn't being tossed off a platform into oblivion like Palpatine.


Weird, for some reason this seems like nothing but a meaningless attempt to whine because you seem to think I care about how Palpatine died the first time. How dare you bring up that Palpatine was tossed to his death by Darth Vader.

Seriously, grow up.


> You have no idea how sexist that sounds. Lumiya is a woman and yet she was able to twist and turn Jacen to her whim.



You put down Morrigane Cade (Cade's father). Learn to read.


> Palpatine doesn't get kudos for hiding his agenda if his teacher was shitfaced before killing him.



He was killed while shitface by someone who is worlds better than Morrigane Cade. Your comparison attempt fails with the obvious.


> Krayt killed the entire jedi council of his era to the point there are only a few left behind. Krayt fucking over Darth Bane's rule of two allowed  him to have firepower to make mincemeat of the jedi and not resort to trickery in order to fuck over the jedi.


Besides how you're now attempting to suggest that Jedi Council of his era is simply either the comparable or better than the Old Republic era, Palpatine has numerous dark side fighters throughout his empire anyway. Darth Bane's rule of two worked out when it still lead to Palpatine and all that he did that still makes Krayt a joke by comparison.


> Krayt being able to sense the power of another force user is also plenty a feat.


No, it actually isn't. Especially when you're attempting to create a positive out of a negative by suggesting that someone of his comparable level or higher couldn't somehow do the same.


> I never said that; I'm merely saying it's an accomplishment in itself that he was able to learn such a difficult force power.


Then why care? It's an accomplishment for numerous characters but we don't waste time bringing it up an ability that doesn't change how outclassed they still are against someone.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

Fang said:


> I really doubt he's read any Star Wars novel when he claimed that Cade's mother is his father/a man. Its seriously giving SasuOna/Raigen vibes on trying to establish his credibility in this thread or in Star Wars general with the Expanded Universe. Then tries to defend it with some magical claim of Neodragzero claiming chauvinism.



Will you turn off your OBD conspiracy BS from your OBD wiki for just a day? I mean ONE DAY?



> As bad as the claim that Lumiya seduced Jacen when the retconned insert in the SWU establishes that his sojourn after the NJO series ends and the encounter with Abeloth is what made Jacen turn into Caedus in the first place.



Jesus Christ that's a TERRIBLE retcon. This is part of the reason I despise EU so goddamn much. 



			
				Ceria said:
			
		

> i think luceno failed to build palpatine's agenda, at least from an internal aspect it felt too out of left field.



The EU's rational for Jacen Solo's turn to dark side (which Fang described) is one big out of left field detail IMO.

Palps is a fine Sith though in the end he didn't achieve his desire to live for as long as possible(and past the time of his mortal enemy Luke).


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

neodragzero said:


> You really don't know much about the EU stuff when it comes to Palpatine and his empire. For one thing, there were numerous dark siders within the Galactic Empire. You really didn't know that Palpatine had numerous Sith types running around?



Of course I know there were numerous Sith types running around. I don't bash characters or etc without doing my research. The fact of the matter is that the Sith's Krayt had with him were able to hide their presence till Luke's passing.



> I believe when making a comparison, a contrast would present a problem with that attempt. Once again, getting killed by Darth Sidious means a lot.



To most of his fanboys yeah. 



> Weird, for some reason this seems like nothing but a meaningless attempt to whine because you seem to think I care about how Palpatine died the first time.



I don't I'm merely pointing out things.



> How dare you bring up that Palpatine was tossed to his death by Darth Vader.



  



> Seriously, grow up.



Hey I'm merely pointing out facts just like how everyone else was pointing out Krayt's flaws. Only I'm not trying to spite I'm being factual. 


You put down Morrigane Cade (Cade's father). Learn to read.



> He was killed while shitface by someone who is worlds better than Morrigane Cade. Your comparison attempt fails with the obvious.



Alright quit bringing that up I'm well aware of how Plagueis was shitfaced. Doesn't change the fact it was low to kill Plagueis while he was drunk as fuck. 



> Besides how you're now attempting to suggest that Jedi Council of his era is
> simply either the comparable or better than the Old Republic era, Palpatine has numerous dark side fighters throughout his empire anyway.





> Darth Bane's rule of two worked out when it still lead to Palpatine and all that he did that still makes Krayt a joke by comparison.



Palpatine's sith rule was different in the fact that the Sith of Palps era weren't directly apprentices to him. Palps had Sith running around causing their own chaos and weren't under his control. Sith like the ones who tried to bring back Darth Maul or people who Darth Vader had as his apprentice in order to overthrow Palps. The reason it worked was because of Palps playing ignorant since as long as it created chaos it worked to his benefit.

Quit overhyping Palps ability to use force stealth Krayt used it as well to conceal his and the other Sith when Luke Skywalker, Ben Skywalker, and Vestara Khai came to Korriban.



> No, it actually isn't. Especially when you're attempting to create a positive out of a negative by suggesting that someone of his comparable level or higher couldn't somehow do the same.



The jedi were trying to conceal their presence after losing on Ossus. He was able to sense Skywalker and the othe jedi were plenty alive.


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## Fang (Feb 11, 2012)

Someone explain to me how its either "OUT OF THE LEFT FIELD" or "bullshit retcon" when everyone noted before the Legacy of the Force series, during the time-gap before that between the New Jedi Order series and Swarm War Trilogy/Dark Nest Crisis that he was more cynical, darker, and ignored the rules and regulations provided by the High Council.

Not too mention he already manifested abilities and powers that eschewed the philosophy of the Jedi Order: Force Lightning, Emerald Lightning & Electric Judgement, Far Sight, Blood Trails, Battle-Meditation, Shatterpoints, etc...

This also included him being out of contact from the known galaxy for five entire years learning from the Aing-Ti Monks, Echani, Witches of Dathimora, Jenssari, Theran Listeners, Fallanesi, and so forth. And its highlighted that he did meet Abeloth which proved the turning point, which is better then anything Lumiya tried to do via mouth-piece of Karen Traviss. Everyone notes this is a better reason in both the in-and-out of universe context as far more objective reasons with his visions of the Jedi Queen being his daughter and protecting her from the One Sith, which Jacen/Caedus already knew about.

This guy really does not know what he's talking about.


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## Es (Feb 11, 2012)

> Alright quit bringing that up I'm well aware of how Plagueis was shitfaced. Doesn't change the fact it was low to kill Plagueis while he was drunk as fuck.


I don't think you get it bender, the Sith aren't nice 


> Palpatine's sith rule was different in the fact that the Sith of Palps era weren't directly apprentices to him. Palps had Sith running around causing their own chaos and weren't under his control. Sith like the ones who tried to bring back Darth Maul


They were the Prophets of the Dark Side, not true Sith. And they worked with him anyways for a while anyways


> which is better then anything Lumiya tried to do via mouth-piece of Karen Traviss.


I'm glad I didn't read her Legacy era books


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## Fang (Feb 11, 2012)

Wait let's see:

- turns the Chosen One to the dark side and into a Sith Lord for more then two-and-half decades.

- dozens if not hundreds of fallen Jedi Masters, Knights, and apprentices become Sith Inquisitors or Sith adepts (reinforced in the Coruscant Nights Trilogy) or otherwise opting to survive in Palpatine's New Order vs being hunted down to extinction

- Dark Jedi recruited and trained

- Emperor's Hands who are all Force-Sensitive beings trained personally in the Force by Sidious as well as his best combat instructors, martial artists, soldiers, spies, etc...

- Prophets of the Dark Side who were based off the heretic Darth Millennial's belief in the Dark Side not being bound by Bane's Rule of Two

- Sith Assassins 

He had legions of Sith adepts, assassins, warriors, and the best of which are the Inquisitors and Dark Jedi but no true belief in "multiple" Sith Lords outside of the Master and Apprentice. This is reinforced with him preferring to use Galen Marek turned to the Dark Side to replace Vader, Vader when replacing Tyranus, Tyranus when replacing Maul, and lastly Luke and Leia in Dark Empire for the latter's children's sheer power.


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## Bender (Feb 11, 2012)

> I don't think you get it bender, the Sith aren't nice



No shit, I'm mocking the fact that Darth Plagueis said he believed he could break the cycle and create a genuine bond yet he didn't with his sith apprentice.

In any case I'm done of wading through SW garbage.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> In any case I'm done of wading through SW garbage.



no one's gonna miss you


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## Es (Feb 11, 2012)

> No shit, I'm mocking the fact that Darth Plagueis said he believed he could break the cycle and create a genuine bond yet he didn't with his sith apprentice.


Nor could Hett if you paid any attention


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## Gig (Feb 11, 2012)

Fang said:


> I like how he never ever indicated to have Shatterpoints on a level of Luke, Windu, or Jacen/Caedus but he still presumes that he does and would "solo" most Sith Lords even though that's never happening.
> 
> Plus Anaddeu never appearing alive or at his peak doesn't make the joke of Wrrylock being a match for him real nor powerscales to Krayt.



Was Anaddeu ever "THE" Lord of the Sith from what I gathered he was a lesser Sith Lord who ruled 1 planet, and happened to discover one of the many dark side techniques of immortality.


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## Es (Feb 11, 2012)

Wasn't he running away from his rivals when he took over Prakith?


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## Fang (Feb 11, 2012)

Anaddeu was the first Sith Lord to establish the "Darth" moniker for them.


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## neodragzero (Feb 11, 2012)

Bender said:


> Of course I know there were numerous Sith types running around. I don't bash characters or etc without doing my research. The fact of the matter is that the Sith's Krayt had with him were able to hide their presence till Luke's passing.


In other words, you on one hand suggest that to "hide" is a negative for one group of characters but it isn't for another how? It sounds like selectively suggesting that Palpatine doing what he did is a problem as far as blinding the Old Republic Jedi Council while just hiding for Krayt's Sith is somehow worthy of praise.


>


Let me guess, you not only don't get the concept of context and contrast but even the very concept of sarcasm where someone even goes out of the way to say "Seriously,"


> Hey I'm merely pointing out facts just like how everyone else was pointing out Krayt's flaws. *Only I'm not trying to spite I'm being factual.*


Really, with comments like: 



Bender said:


> -Darth Krayt was able to sense that Morrigane Corde(Cade's father) was a spy. Darth Plagueis was unable to sense Palpatine's intentions.





> -Darth Krayt was able to make his presence felt by everyone in the force. He didn't play cat and mouse with the jedi order like Palpatine did.





Bender said:


> Does Darth Plagueis know how to come back from death?
> 
> Does Darth Plagueis know about the shatterpoints
> 
> ...



I would of never guessed there wasn't any spiteful bullduggery.


> Alright quit bringing that up I'm well aware of how Plagueis was shitfaced. Doesn't change the fact it was low to kill Plagueis while he was drunk as fuck.



Plagueis is killed while shitfaced by Darth Sidious. Guess how getting killed by Cade with some help from a Jedi who is not only dead but was weaker than Sidious when both were alive compares?


> Palpatine's sith rule was different in the fact that the Sith of Palps era weren't directly apprentices to him. Palps had Sith running around causing their own chaos and *weren't under his control*. Sith like the ones who tried to bring back Darth Maul or people who Darth Vader had as his apprentice in order to overthrow Palps. The reason it worked was because of Palps playing ignorant since as long as it created chaos it worked to his benefit.



In other words, you don't know about the Dark Jedi, Cronal, Emperor's Shadow Guard, and such. Dark Empire says hello..


> Quit overhyping Palps ability to use force stealth Krayt used it as well to conceal his and the other Sith when Luke Skywalker, Ben Skywalker, and Vestara Khai came to Korriban.


Once again, still attempting to suggest that hiding away from three individuals compares to blinding the entire Old Republic Jedi Council in just not the matter of what he was but also the council's perception of events through the force in general.


> The jedi were trying to conceal their presence after losing on Ossus. He was able to sense Skywalker and the othe jedi were plenty alive.


You really don't get it. You're suggesting he has a feat that only he performed as if this matters when no other Sith Lord of his level or higher happens to be around. He happens to notice that someone blatantly used a technique he needs the most at a time no one else is around with anywhere near the connective interest and power level for a special technique that's pretty much a red flare in the dark. How impressive indeed.


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## Ceria (Feb 12, 2012)

Bender said:


> The EU's rational for Jacen Solo's turn to dark side (which Fang described) is one big out of left field detail IMO.





Fang said:


> Someone explain to me how its either "OUT OF THE LEFT FIELD" or "bullshit retcon" when everyone noted before the Legacy of the Force series, during the time-gap before that between the New Jedi Order series and Swarm War Trilogy/Dark Nest Crisis that he was more cynical, darker, and ignored the rules and regulations provided by the High Council.
> 
> Not too mention he already manifested abilities and powers that eschewed the philosophy of the Jedi Order: Force Lightning, Emerald Lightning & Electric Judgement, Far Sight, Blood Trails, Battle-Meditation, Shatterpoints, etc...
> 
> ...



Fang says it best here. It's about the throne of balance vision. that's the reason he chose to become a sith lord, while lumiya's training probably nudged him closer to that mindset than he would've ever considered.


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