# MS Sasuke vs Killer Bee (rematch)



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

Knowledge: None. It's as if the first fight didn't happen.
Mindset: IC
Location: Cloud Village
Distance: 40 meters
Stipulations: The fight is the same as what was gonna happen, but Sasuke doesn't plan to capture Bee, but is IC, and he has V4 Susanoo and Amaterasu mastered.

Who wins?


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## Pocalypse (Aug 10, 2014)

This is a tough battle to predict but would say...MS Sasuke edges out. He has Susano'o so that will protect him from Bee's sword dance. IC Killer Bee would resort to using that first compared to going through any Hachibi transformations. Then Sasuke can just Amaterasu him after and this time he won't stop the Amaterasu mid way, he'll let Bee burn. We know IC Sasuke would use Susano'o at first anyway since he used it immediately against Danzo.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

Killer Bee nukes him. It took getting the EMS for Sasuke to become stronger than him.


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## Ghost (Aug 10, 2014)

There's a chance Bee gets killed before resorts to nuking.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 10, 2014)

Since when did IC Bee even resort to nuking in the first place? If this was bloodlusted then he would resort to nuking, and the stipulations already say it's a similar fight to the first one but Sasuke has upgrades and he's there for the kill this time instead of just capturing him.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Killer Bee nukes him. It took getting the EMS for Sasuke to become stronger than him.



Oh, hey, thats nice. When did Kishi tell you that?


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

Which IC Sasuke is this? If it's pre-kage summit, it could go either way, if it's Kage Summit, Amaterasu end B since he's basically bloodlusted


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

Kage summit Sasuke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Oh, hey, thats nice. When did Kishi tell you that?


Its from the feats and portrayal. Killer Bee's War Arc feats put him far above Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha. Sasuke's Susano'o would get trashed by Biju Hachimaki and then he'd finish him off with a Bijudama. Amaterasu is a non-factor due Killer Bee's usage of the Octopus Leg Clone.


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## Bonly (Aug 10, 2014)

Either B ends up feinting Sasuke and finish him off while he's unaware or Sasuke ends up landing a killing blow before B goes Bijuu Mode


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its from the feats and portrayal. Killer Bee's War Arc feats put him far above Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha. Sasuke's Susano'o would get trashed by Biju Hachimaki and then he'd finish him off with a Bijudama. Amaterasu is a non-factor due Killer Bee's usage of the Octopus Leg Clone.




Killer Bee's feats?

Killer Bee was owned by Kisame, and Kisame admitted he wasn't on Itachi or Jiraiya's level. Sure, Killer Bee didn't use Hachibi Mode, and Kisame was a perfect counter to him, but that didn't vouch well for him

Susanoo tanked Kirin, it can tank that whirlwind *easily.*

That attack only put down those Jinchuriki who were in *Base* for a few seconds and then they proceeded to own the Hachibi when they went to V2.

Madara owned the Hachibi, with help from KCM Naruto and Gai without any problems, and it was Gai and Naruto who ultimately saved him. And I know Madara is extremely strong, so theres no shame in losing to him, but Madara was just toying with him, he wasn't anywhere near serious, for example, not using shit like PS which would decimate the Hachibi. While there is no problem with losing to Madara, it's also no feat. 

He couldn't do anything to the Gedo Mazou statue and got burned, and even the 5 Tails owned him once.

So I really don't know what feats you are talking about.

Both the Masters and Naruto did a lot more than him. Naruto, Gai and Kakashi all pressed Obito, while Hachibi was failing againts the Mazou. Bee seemed like the weak link, as Kakashi's Kamui was extremely useful againts Obito, and Gai's 7th Gate was what freed them from Madara. 8th Gated Gai managed to almost killed Juubidara. Kakashi helped againts Obito later fighting him 1 vs 1, and now has PS. Kakashi was the one who deciphered Obito's ability and was leading them strategically, while Naruto was leading them with his power. In terms of power, Bee was weaker than Naruto, and Gated Gai.

Hell, Bee was owned by Obito as well, with only a few shuriken.

Base Bee wasn't even able to do anything to Yugito. 

I just don't see these feats you are talking about. The Hachibi was owned at every turn.

Even againts a crippled Nagato, Bee was the weak link betweem him, Naruto and Itachi...and he led to Naruto being captured by Nagato and Nagato almost killing both of them, if not for Uchiha Itachi, a Mangekyou Sharingan User.

He also looked bad againts Itachi, who when he activated his Mangekyou, Naruto thought Bee was screwed if either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu landed on him.

So I don't know what feats you are talking about tbh.


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## Thunder (Aug 10, 2014)

Sasuke wins with his more advanced Mangekyō Sharingan. 

_Susanō_ guards against Kirābī's initial assault and then he gets caught by_ Amaterasu_ before transforming fully. In-character Sasuke tends to go all out right away while in-character Kirābī starts a little more slowly. Thus Kirābī won't realize he'll need _Bijūdama_ to end things quickly until it's too late.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Killer Bee's feats?
> 
> Killer Bee was owned by Kisame, and Kisame admitted he wasn't on Itachi or Jiraiya's level. Sure, Killer Bee didn't use Hachibi Mode, and Kisame was a perfect counter to him, but that didn't vouch well for him


Kisame never 'owned' Bee. Killer Bee was holding back the entire fight so he wouldn't hurt Sabu and Ponta. When Bee goes all out, Kisame wouldn't have stood a chance. And that's even with the fact that Kisame was a perfect counter for him. If Bee went Tailed Beast Mode, Kisame would have been killed.


> Susanoo tanked Kirin, it can tank that whirlwind *easily.*


Susano'o never tanked Kirin. If it did, it'd still be standing afterwards. And Sasuke's Susano'o was pierced by weaker attacks. The Biju Hachimaki covers a larger area than Kirin by a huge amount, making it the stronger of the two attacks.


> That attack only put down those Jinchuriki who were in *Base* for a few seconds and then they proceeded to own the Hachibi when they went to V2.


Its made quite clear that the Jinchuriki, who were in their _one tailed states_ (not Base) only survived due to being Edo Tensei. And why bring that up when the six of them are stronger than MS Sasuke?


> Madara owned the Hachibi, with help from KCM Naruto and Gai without any problems, and it was Gai and Naruto who ultimately saved him. And I know Madara is extremely strong, so theres no shame in losing to him, but Madara was just toying with him, he wasn't anywhere near serious, for example, not using shit like PS which would decimate the Hachibi. While there is no problem with losing to Madara, it's also no feat.


Why bring up Madara when Sasuke is INSANELY weaker than Madara?


> He couldn't do anything to the Gedo Mazou statue and got burned, and even the 5 Tails owned him once.


He knocked the Gedo Mazo on its ass and backhanded Kokuo like a bitch. Ignored that?




> Both the Masters and Naruto did a lot more than him. Naruto, Gai and Kakashi all pressed Obito, while Hachibi was failing againts the Mazou. Bee seemed like the weak link, as Kakashi's Kamui was extremely useful againts Obito, and Gai's 7th Gate was what freed them from Madara. 8th Gated Gai managed to almost killed Juubidara. Kakashi helped againts Obito later fighting him 1 vs 1, and now has PS. Kakashi was the one who deciphered Obito's ability and was leading them strategically, while Naruto was leading them with his power. In terms of power, Bee was weaker than Naruto, and Gated Gai.


And Bee survived against the Ten-Tails and blocked its Super Bijudama for a time with his tails.


> Hell, Bee was owned by Obito as well, with only a few shuriken.


Actually, it was the CHAKRA STAKES that Bee was impaired by. You really have a selective memory.

Do you hate Bee or something?


> Base Bee wasn't even able to do anything to Yugito.


Did you miss the fact Yugito had been enhanced, had the Rinnegan AND the Sharingan, and despite that Bee slashed her across the chest?


> I just don't see these feats you are talking about. The Hachibi was owned at every turn.


Bee owned all six Jinchuriki and only lost when they had to power up to defeat him.


> Even againts a crippled Nagato, Bee was the weak link betweem him, Naruto and Itachi...and he led to Naruto being captured by Nagato and Nagato almost killing both of them, if not for Uchiha Itachi, a Mangekyou Sharingan User.


Bee had not knowledge against a Rinnegan user. He did as well as anyone would in that situation. And if it wasn't for Bee's superior firepower, Naruto and Itachi wouldn't have escaped Chibaku Tensei.


> He also looked bad againts Itachi, who when he activated his Mangekyou, Naruto thought Bee was screwed if either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu landed on him.


Wait. He broke Itachi's genjutsu and blocked his flaming Shuriken. Then he proceeded to force Itachi to retreat. Naruto didn't know Bee is immune to Genjutsu or defeated Amaterasu in the past.


> So I don't know what feats you are talking about tbh.


You're downplaying or outright falsifying Bee's feats to make him look bad. You use opponents he was at a disadvantage against or is weaker than to make a case that MS Sasuke is stronger.

You hate Bee since he gutted Sasuke like a fish don't you?


> The Kawarimi only worked because Sasuke cut his tentacle to help Karin. There is no Karin here.


Bee can sever his own tentacle.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its from the feats and portrayal. Killer Bee's War Arc feats put him far above Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke Uchiha. Sasuke's Susano'o would get trashed by Biju Hachimaki and then he'd finish him off with a Bijudama. Amaterasu is a non-factor due Killer Bee's usage of the Octopus Leg Clone.



Hachimaki is not destroying Susano'O, it hardly dented V1 Jinchurikis.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Hachimaki is not destroying Susano'O, it hardly dented V1 Jinchurikis.


Doesn't have to destroy it, just has to _stun it._ Even then, Sasuke's Susano'o isn't that strong in the Mangekyo Stage considering Danzo was cutting it like nothing.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't have to destroy it, just has to _stun it._ Even then, Sasuke's Susano'o isn't that strong in the Mangekyo Stage considering Danzo was cutting it like nothing.



Danzou only cut an incomplete Susanoo attacking Susanoo's weakpoint which is it's back.

From the front, Sasuke's Susanoo withstood any attack Danzou attacked it with.

Hachibi cannot get to the back of Susanoo because he is slow/slower than Sasuke is, and he wouldn't know this weakness to it that Danzou knew...and this is a complete Susanoo.

Susanoo, however, has feats such as tanking Kirin, Gaara+Darui+Temari+Kankuro's attack in only V2.

In V2 Madara tanked Ei's punches without it even denting.

Raikage + Onoki (Thats two Kages working together not 1)were needed to bust only  V2 Susanoo (V2 is a lot weaker than V4) from Madara, and a 7 Gated Gai.

No one has ever completely destroyed a V4 Susanoo up to date, and certainly not someone of Bee's level. Only someone like Hashirama has.

Sasuke in Susanoo has * tremendous defense*, and you know this, I know this, so why not accept that fact?

And its a hell of a lot more defense than what any form of Killer Bee gives.

If Sasuke decides to use Amaterasu and Bee is on Base, he's dead before he can even enter Hachibi mode and cut his tentacle. And if he survives that, he'll be extremely injured, and Sasuke can just follow with yet Another Amaterasu and this time finish Bee. After the tentacle being cut, Bee starts off in Base, and even if he does manage to get into Hachibi form again, Sasuke can just spread the Amaterasu flames throught Hachibi's whole body using Enton: Kagutsuchi like he used againts Kaguya's ice, or againts his own Susanoo to protect it from Ei.

If Bee enter Hachibi mode quickly, he's just a bigger target for Amaterasu.

Bee's only shot would be V2, which is kinda OC for him to start quickly in, but Sasuke can shield himself by shielding his Susanoo with Amaterasu.

Between Susanoo arrows, Amaterasu, and Kirin, Sasuke has more than enough fire power to take down Killer Bee.

And Naruto kinda hinted at it, when he stated Bee was screwed if he got hit by either Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Sure, Bee could escape an initial Amaterasu, but Sasuke can use it many times.

And god not forbid Sasuke at this point would be able to use the 13 GG Amaterasus he used againts Zetsu, because thats more tentacles than Bee has in just one swing, and less than 5% of his chakra.

I mean, we know for a fact that EMS Sasuke owns Bee based on that feat, but since its by such a huge margin, Sasuke should be able to do so in MS as well.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Danzou only cut an incomplete Susanoo attacking Susanoo's weakpoint which is it's back.


Completed or Full Bodied Susano'o. Danzo gutted it like a fish.


> From the front, Sasuke's Susanoo withstood any attack Danzou attacked it with.


Prove it. It was a Complete Susano'o and it got cut to ribbons. All Danzo had to do was make suction so his Futon's were stronger.


> Hachibi cannot get to the back of Susanoo because he is slow/slower than Sasuke is, and he wouldn't know this weakness to it that Danzou knew...and this is a complete Susanoo.


Gyuki's kept pace with KCM Naruto, could catch a superfast Isobu and backhand Kokuo at the same time, and intercepted the Jyubi's superfast Bijudama.

Gyuki form is not slow. Unless your claiming Sasuke's is strong enough to survive a Bijudama now?


> Susanoo, however, has feats such as tanking Kirin,


Susano'o didn't tank anything. It was pierced and collapsed. KyuubiYondaime, deliberately misusing terms doesn't help your argument. Tanking means the person is without damage and the thing they used was still standing. Hence why a M1A2 tank can tank an RPG, its practically undamaged by it.


> Gaara+Darui+Temari+Kankuro's attack in only V2.


An attack that can only fill a building compared to something that covers kilometers. Cute.


> In V2 Madara tanked Ei's punches without it even denting.


A's not even remotely as powerful as Gyuki. And even then, that's MADARA's feat, not Sasuke. MS Sasuke's Susano'o was trashed by A.


> Raikage + Onoki (Thats two Kages working together not 1)were needed to bust only  V2 Susanoo (V2 is a lot weaker than V4) from Madara, and a 7 Gated Gai.


Those were both Complete or Full Bodied state, not Incomplete or Skeletal. Can you stop deliberately bringing up feats incorrectly to support your agenda? And even then, its STILL inferior to Biju Hachimaki (hell Afternoon Tiger couldn't even take a third of the area up).


> No one has ever completely destroyed a V4 Susanoo up to date, and certainly not someone of Bee's level. Only someone like Hashirama has.


Prove that Sasuke's is on any level of Madara's. You honestly believe that Bee can't wipe it off the map with Bijudama?


> Sasuke in Susanoo has * tremendous defense*, and you know this, I know this, so why not accept that fact?


Except it is NOT as great as you're stating. You're using feats from OTHER characters. You're claiming them disingenuously. From what Sasuke HAS shown, his Susano'o'd at least been stunned if not outright destroyed or heavily damaged by Biju Hachimaki alone. And Bijudama would reduce it, AND Sasuke into nothingness.

Hell I would bet V2 Bee could seriously damage it.


> And its a hell of a lot more defense than what any form of Killer Bee gives.


Not enough considering the attacks Bee takes to the table.


> If Sasuke decides to use Amaterasu and Bee is on Base, he's dead before he can even enter Hachibi mode and cut his tentacle. And if he survives that, he'll be extremely injured, and Sasuke can just follow with yet Another Amaterasu and this time finish Bee. After the tentacle being cut, Bee starts off in Base, and even if he does manage to get into Hachibi form again, Sasuke can just spread the Amaterasu flames throught Hachibi's whole body using Enton: Kagutsuchi like he used againts Kaguya's ice, or againts his own Susanoo to protect it from Ei.


Sasuke would still be suffering a backlash after using Amaterasu on Bee's full Biju form. Just enough time to attack Sasuke when his guard is down with a Lariat or his swords.

Tell me, what will Sasuke do if Bee BLINDS him with Ink?


> If Bee enter Hachibi mode quickly, he's just a bigger target for Amaterasu.


And Biju Mode would obliterate Sasuke. Amaterasu hits, Bee fires, severs a tentacle and Sasuke is killed.


> Bee's only shot would be V2, which is kinda OC for him to start quickly in, but Sasuke can shield himself by shielding his Susanoo with Amaterasu.


If Bee starts in V2, he'll plow through Sasuke's initial Susano'o states and Amaterasu won't hit.


> Between Susanoo arrows, Amaterasu, and Kirin, Sasuke has more than enough fire power to take down Killer Bee.


Susano'o arrows? They're too slow to hit Bee in his lower forms and _too tiny_ to do anything in Biju Mode. Amaterasu, countered by Octopus Leg Clone. Kirin? Biju Mode Bee'd tank it.


> And Naruto kinda hinted at it, when he stated Bee was screwed if he got hit by either Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Sure, Bee could escape an initial Amaterasu, but Sasuke can use it many times.


Sasuke's ALWAYS displayed a backlash using Amaterasu when he was in his Mangekyo Sharingan state. Tsukuyomi is useless against Bee due to him being a Perfect Jinchuriki.


> And god not forbid Sasuke at this point would be able to use the 13 GG Amaterasus he used againts Zetsu, because thats more tentacles than Bee has in just one swing, and less than 5% of his chakra.




That's an EMS Sasuke, not a MS Sasuke. Do you really hate Bee this much you can't differentiate?


> I mean, we know for a fact that EMS Sasuke owns Bee based on that feat, but since its by such a huge margin, Sasuke should be able to do so in MS as well.


Its not even a huge margin until Sasuke got Perfect Susano'o. Sasuke doesn't have the feats to do so with the MS, he's inferior.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Completed or Full Bodied Susano'o. Danzo gutted it like a fish.
> 
> 
> Prove it. It was a Complete Susano'o and it got cut to ribbons. All Danzo had to do was make suction so his Futon's were stronger.



Those pictures you showed are of V3 Susanoo.

In this fight, Sasuke has V4 Susanoo which is this:



A form that Sasuke didn't have until he fought Kakashi.

You asked for a pic of Sasuke tanking Danzou's direct attack before Danzou attacked it from behind so here it is:





> Susano'o didn't tank anything. It was pierced and collapsed. KyuubiYondaime, deliberately misusing terms doesn't help your argument. Tanking means the person is without damage and the thing they used was still standing. Hence why a M1A2 tank can tank an RPG, its practically undamaged by it.


Fine, not tank. But it didn't break either, dude, so whats your point???

I mean, Itachi survived it just fine, and I doubt his Susanoo had even time to fully form.

Thats the point isn't it? Surviving right?

Kirin is a hell of attack, which 95% of the Narutoverse would die againts if it was executed effectively. *Yet Itachi survived it thanks to Susanoo.* He said so himself he'd be dead if not for Susanoo.



> Except it is NOT as great as you're stating. You're using feats from OTHER characters. You're claiming them disingenuously. From what Sasuke HAS shown, his Susano'o'd at least been stunned if not outright destroyed or heavily damaged by Biju Hachimaki alone. And Bijudama would reduce it, AND Sasuke into nothingness.


Dude, I bring up other Susanoos, because they are still Susanoos. Give or take. Sure, Madara's might be stronger, and it probably was, but I'm just naming similiarties, because it is the same jutsu. No need to be nitpicking.

Like I said, and repeat, Sasuke's V2 tanked Gaara+ Temari + Kankurou + C's attack without flinching and V4 is a lot stronger than that.




> Hell I would bet V2 Bee could seriously damage it.


Sasuke can protect his Susanoo with Amaterasu.



> Sasuke would still be suffering a backlash after using Amaterasu on Bee's full Biju form. Just enough time to attack Sasuke when his guard is down with a Lariat or his swords.


Thats true. But Sasuke used the Mangekyou over 8 times in the Kage summit. Thats more than enough to kill Killer Bee.

Sasuke fought nearly 10 minutes with Danzou spamming the shit out of Susanoo while also using Amaterasu and his MS Genjutsu.



> Tell me, what will Sasuke do if Bee BLINDS him with Ink?


Inside Susanoo the ink won't get to him. He can dodge it. Bee never tried that when he *actually* fought Sasuke, ya know.

Just like Sasuke didn't try Amaterasu offensively until the very end, Kirin, or Susanoo (he didn't have this), and the others since he wanted to capture Bee, not kill him.



> And Biju Mode would obliterate Sasuke. Amaterasu hits, Bee fires, severs a tentacle and Sasuke is killed.


Hachibi tanked its own Bijuubomb proves his Bijuubomb is not that strong. If it was, he would have died instantly. His flesh is easily cut by guys like Ei and moves like Chidori Eisou. If Bijuubomb was that powerful, he'd have one-shotted himself.

And btw, the Hachibi got double KO'd by the Third Raikage, someone who Sasuke can kill with just 1 Amaterasu, or MS Genjutsu and then follow with Amaterasu. Someone who Naruto's clone dispatched, and Sage Naruto was tied with MS Sasuke (ya know, the real Naruto, not the clone.)



> If Bee starts in V2, he'll plow through Sasuke's initial Susano'o states and Amaterasu won't hit.


Except two things brah:

1. Bee never starts in V2. He didn't againts Sasuke, He didn't againts Itachi, He didn't againts the Jinchuriki.  He didn't againts Kisame.

2. Sasuke can surround Susanoo with Amaterasu and Bee would end up getting caught on fire.



> Susano'o arrows? *They're too slow *to hit Bee in his lower forms and _too tiny_ to do anything in Biju Mode. Amaterasu, countered by Octopus Leg Clone. Kirin? Biju Mode Bee'd tank it.



Both Danzou and Kakashi disagree with you.





Danzou got owned by the arrows multiple times, and Kakashi who kept up with V2 Jins and 6 Gated Gai, had no choice but to Kamui it away, or else he'd be dead by his own admission. Now Kamuing it only requires the blink  of an eye. *What is faster than that dude?*

Kakashi: "That was too fast...My Only Option was to Warp it Away with the Mangekyou"





> Tsukuyomi is useless against Bee due to him being a Perfect Jinchuriki.


Tsukuyomi is instantaneous. Kakashi explained that. There is no escaping it's effects. Thats why Naruto told Bee if he gets hit by it he's done for.

Here's Kakashi explaining it:


"Well, thats allright for a normal Genjutsu Level, ... But in this case it will be a little more trouble. He uses an Eye Jutsu that surpasses Original Sharingan, the "Mangekyou Sharingan". If you are struck by that eye jutsu, his Genjusu can affect you in an instant. There is no cancelling the effects of it. 

Though Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, only Itachi has.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Those pictures you showed are of V3 Susanoo.
> 
> In this fight, Sasuke has V4 Susanoo which is this:
> 
> ...


Shame that form is featless and Sasuke could only maintain it for a second before going blind. I'm going by what Sasuke has _shown_ to do, you're going by what you _think_ he can do.


> You asked for a pic of Sasuke tanking Danzou's direct attack before Danzou attacked it from behind so here it is:


From the smoke wafting up, it still caused some damage to Susano'o. And again, Baku Suction + Danzo's Futons = Pierced and flayed Susano'o. That's canon.



> Fine, not tank. But it didn't break either, dude, so whats your point???
> 
> I mean, Itachi survived it just fine, and I doubt his Susanoo had even time to fully form.
> 
> ...


It _did_ break. Thats the point that I made. Susano'o wasn't strong enough to survive against Kirin, all it could do was weaken the blast just a bit so Itachi could survive. In the process Itachi got burned and lost his cloak. 

And Kirin's...REALLY low on the power scale now too. I mean miniscule. Bijudama is magnitudes, MAGNITUDES stronger. Biju Hachimaki destroyed a far higher area.



> Dude, I bring up other Susanoos, because they are still Susanoos. Give or take. Sure, Madara's might be stronger, and it probably was, but I'm just naming similiarties, because it is the same jutsu. No need to be nitpicking.
> 
> Like I said, and repeat, Sasuke's V2 tanked Gaara+ Temari + Kankurou + C's attack without flinching and V4 is a lot stronger than that.


We don't know how strong Sasuke's Armoed Susano'o is. Thats the point I'm making. Sure, he tanked a _room filling attack_, but that doesn't equate to tanking an attack that covers several kilometers. Obito's Jinchuriki paths only survived since they were _Edo Tensei_, Sasuke being a living person doesn't have that advantage.




> Sasuke can protect his Susanoo with Amaterasu.


At a tremendous strain on his body. And if V2 Bee's cloak or skull takes the attack, Amaterasu would be useless.



> Thats true. But Sasuke used the Mangekyou over 8 times in the Kage summit. Thats more than enough to kill Killer Bee.
> 
> Sasuke fought nearly 10 minutes with Danzou spamming the shit out of Susanoo while also using Amaterasu and his MS Genjutsu.


And Killer Bee's fought all day and night against several Biju, the Gedo Mazo, Obito, Madara, and even the Ten-Tails and lived. Sorry, I'm not buying that 'that's more than enough to kill Bee'.



> Inside Susanoo the ink won't get to him. He can dodge it. Bee never tried that when he *actually* fought Sasuke, ya know.
> 
> Just like Sasuke didn't try Amaterasu offensively until the very end, Kirin, or Susanoo (he didn't have this), and the others since he wanted to capture Bee, not kill him.


Bee could cover Susano'o in ink and Sasuke couldn't see through. And remember, that entire battle Bee used was so he could make a vacation afterwards, hell he had to fool the Kumo Ninja into thinking he was captured.

Sasuke couldn't USE Kirin or Susano'o against Bee at that time, and both would have been useless against his full form. And Amaterasu...Bee used it to his advantage and played Sasuke for a fool.



> Hachibi tanked its own Bijuubomb proves his Bijuubomb is not that strong. If it was, he would have died instantly. His flesh is easily cut by guys like Ei and moves like Chidori Eisou. If Bijuubomb was that powerful, he'd have one-shotted himself.


Bee/Gyuki tanking his own Bijudama shows just how durable Gyuki/Bee _are_. Bijudama can wipe out mountains or fill entire valleys.

And Gyuki/Bee could survive Jyubi's Bijudama exploding on his face, remember? 

A only severed a horn and Chidori Eiso severed tails (which aren't as durable as Gyuki's main body) when said tail was FALLING.


> And btw, the Hachibi got double KO'd by the Third Raikage, someone who Sasuke can kill with just 1 Amaterasu, or MS Genjutsu and then follow with Amaterasu. Someone who Naruto's clone dispatched, and Sage Naruto was tied with MS Sasuke (ya know, the real Naruto, not the clone.)


Pfft. Sandaime Raikage's durable enough to power through the Amaterasu, grab Sasuke by the neck, snap it and use his chakra to blow off the burning flames. MS Genjutsu is usless given Sasuke couldn't even use it against A.

God, you do hate Bee enough to claim something so absurd.



> Except two things brah:
> 
> 1. Bee never starts in V2. He didn't againts Sasuke, He didn't againts Itachi, He didn't againts the Jinchuriki.  He didn't againts Kisame.


Nope, he starts mostly with V1 or goes straight to full Biju Mode. Against Itachi, he made him run with his tail between his legs with just partial transformations in his base state and his Seven Sword Dance. Against the Jinchuriki Paths, he went full Biju. Against Kisame, he DID go V2 after V1 wasn't enough and going Biju Mode would have just killed Sabu and Ponta.


> 2. Sasuke can surround Susanoo with Amaterasu and Bee would end up getting caught on fire.


Or his cloak could take it after he barrels through Susano'o and sends Sasuke back with a horn in his chest. V2 Bee is stronger than A by quite the amount and Sasuke only could make that combo with the ribcage state.


[qupte]Both Danzou and Kakashi disagree with you.





Danzou got owned by the arrows multiple times, and Kakashi who kept up with V2 Jins and 6 Gated Gai, had no choice but to Kamui it away, or else he'd be dead by his own admission. Now Kamuing it only requires the blink  of an eye. *What is faster than that dude?*[/quote]
Bee was keeping pace with V2 A. He was equaling V1 A in speed. The arrows are too slow to hit. Kakashi was quite a bit weaker then too, he wasn't nearly as fast or as strong as he was in the war and Danzo was caught while he was off guard.


> Kakashi: "That was too fast...My Only Option was to Warp it Away with the Mangekyou"


And Bee was nearly as fast as the fastest shinobi in the World (at that time), so he can comfortably avoid or dance around them.





> Tsukuyomi is instantaneous. Kakashi explained that. There is no escaping it's effects. Thats why Naruto told Bee if he gets hit by it he's done for.
> 
> Here's Kakashi explaining it:
> 
> ...


The state where Biju are sealed in exists in their own timeframe. The Biju will always break their partner out of said genjutsu (no matter what it is unless they too are effected). The manga made it clear, Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu. Sorry man, that includes Tsukuyomi.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shame that form is featless and Sasuke could only maintain it for a second before going blind. I'm going by what Sasuke has _shown_ to do, you're going by what you _think_ he can do


Actually, no, Sasuke used that form when he had EMS. Sure, he had EMS, but it was still V4 Susanoo. The true power of the EMS allowed Sasuke to use Perfect Susanoo, which was the upgrade the EMS rewarded, and the chakra spam.

But I'm pretty sure Sasuke's V4 could do this, because...um...its what it actually DID.





> It _did_ break. Thats the point that I made. Susano'o wasn't strong enough to survive against Kirin, all it could do was weaken the blast just a bit so Itachi could survive. In the process Itachi got burned and lost his cloak.
> 
> And Kirin's...REALLY low on the power scale now too. I mean miniscule. Bijudama is magnitudes, MAGNITUDES stronger. Biju Hachimaki destroyed a far higher area.


It didn't brake it. You need to stop making that up because it didn't. You say how Bee can brake Tsukuyomi, I post you a pic and proof you wrong. You say how Danzou broke Stage 4 Susanoo, I post a pic and proof you wrong. If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't talk like you do.





Itachi's V2 allowed him to survive Kirin, imagine what V4 can do.




> And Killer Bee's fought all day and night against several Biju, the Gedo Mazo, Obito, Madara, and even the Ten-Tails and lived. Sorry, I'm not buying that 'that's more than enough to kill Bee'.


Yeah and he has being saved by Naruto, Gai, etc. And has being owned at every turn. It's not a matter of chakra, when Sasuke can just have his 2nd Amaterasu to spread with Kagutsuchi to cover all of Bee's tentacles, and then Bee won't have any more tentacles or body pieces to detach to. 



> Pfft. Sandaime Raikage's durable enough to power through the Amaterasu, grab Sasuke by the neck, snap it and use his chakra to blow off the burning flames. MS Genjutsu is usless given Sasuke couldn't even use it against A.


Not really. The pain would be enough so the Sandaime would be rolling over. Burning pain is different from explosion Pain. Look at how Hachibi, who stalemated with the Raikage, was screaming in pain. Except if the Raikage doesn't have a sucessfull Kawarimi, or Sasuke can spread his Amaterasu throughout his body, he is done for. Sasuke can protect himself with Susanoo V4 in this scenario, and he can surround Amaterasu to it, so if the Sandaime attempts to punch Sasuke, he will get burned.

His son couldn't get past a V2, I doubt he can get through a V4. And while he is more durable than his son, Amaterasu doesn't stop burning, so its the perfect jutsu to take down durability freaks like him, and he doesn't have the speed to dodge it like his son.



> Nope, he starts mostly with V1 or goes straight to full Biju Mode. Against Itachi, he made him run with his tail between his legs with just partial transformations in his base state and his Seven Sword Dance. Against the Jinchuriki Paths, he went full Biju. Against Kisame, he DID go V2 after V1 wasn't enough and going Biju Mode would have just killed Sabu and Ponta.


Itachi retreated to activate the Mangekyou and thats when Naruto told Bee he'd be screwed if he got hit by either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, and Naruto was right.

Itachi later proceeded to save Bee's ass, and sure, Bee's power was necessary to break CT, but it was Itachi who deciphered the weakness of it, and not only that, the one who sealed Nagato, was who????? Oh yes, Uchiha Itachi. And Bee was left saying "That guy was very strong" 



> ]
> Bee was keeping pace with V2 A. He was equaling V1 A in speed. The arrows are too slow to hit. Kakashi was quite a bit weaker then too, he wasn't nearly as fast or as strong as he was in the war and Danzo was caught while he was off guard.


Sasuke kept up with V1 Ei and hit him with a Chidori, so whats your point?

Danzou was NOT offguard, stop making stuff off.

Kakashi didn't get muchhhhhhhh faster in less than an arc, so again, stop making stuff up. If this was the Kakashi that fought Kakuzu MAYBE. But again, stop making stuff up.



> The state where Biju are sealed in exists in their own timeframe. The Biju will always break their partner out of said genjutsu (no matter what it is unless they too are effected). The manga made it clear, Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu. Sorry man, that includes Tsukuyomi.


He can't break him free because it happens in an instant.

Do you know what an instant is dude?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Actually, no, Sasuke used that form when he had EMS. Sure, he had EMS, but it was still V4 Susanoo. The true power of the EMS allowed Sasuke to use Perfect Susanoo, which was the upgrade the EMS rewarded, and the chakra spam.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure Sasuke's V4 could do this, because...um...its what it actually DID.


MS Sasuke's and EMS Sasuke's Armored Susano'o are different. EMS Sasuke's changed its appearance and it was stronger. MS Sasuke's is _completely and utterly featless._



> It didn't brake it. You need to stop making that up because it didn't. You say how Bee can brake Tsukuyomi, I post you a pic and proof you wrong. You say how Danzou broke Stage 4 Susanoo, I post a pic and proof you wrong. If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't talk like you do.


Kirin did break through Itachi's Susano'o. Hence why it wasn't left standing and Itachi got burned and lost his cloak.

I never said Danzo broke through Armored Susano'o. I said he broke through Complete Susano'o. You're putting words in my mouth since I'm not bowing to your way of thinking.

And the manga said flat out: Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu. Tsukuyom is no different.


> Itachi's V2 allowed him to survive Kirin, imagine what V4 can do.




Itachi is _reforming Susano'o in those panels you posted you Uchiha fan._ Itachi has no Susano'o here, fresh after Kirin's strike. Are you so disingenuous and dishonest you can't admit the attack flat out destroyed the technique you love so much? 


> Yeah and he has being saved by Naruto, Gai, etc. And has being owned at every turn. It's not a matter of chakra, when Sasuke can just have his 2nd Amaterasu to spread with Kagutsuchi to cover all of Bee's tentacles, and then Bee won't have any more tentacles or body pieces to detach to.


Killer Bee saved himself several times over. He saved Naruto, Bee, and Kakashi several times over. He saved the army several times over. Do you HONESTLY hate his this much you ignore his feats?! I mean dear god, you act like he was unable to do anything when the manga showed he was one of the strongest shinobi on the field!

Sasuke can't use Enton freely with just the Mangekyo Sharingan. Its only with the EMS he can freely manipulate it. So no, he can't do that. Stop fucking making things up and giving Sasuke feats he wouldn't get until the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan!



> Not really. The pain would be enough so the Sandaime would be rolling over. Burning pain is different from explosion Pain. Look at how Hachibi, who stalemated with the Raikage, was screaming in pain. Except if the Raikage doesn't have a sucessfull Kawarimi, or Sasuke can spread his Amaterasu throughout his body, he is done for. Sasuke can protect himself with Susanoo V4 in this scenario, and he can surround Amaterasu to it, so if the Sandaime attempts to punch Sasuke, he will get burned.


A could tolerate the heat and pain of the Amaterasu and the Sandaime's cloak is stronger so he could tolerate it faster. And Gyuki was putting on an act. How many times does it have to be HAMMERED into your skull that Sasuke lost that fight and was played as a chump?

The Sandaime Raikage is fast enough to avoid Amaterasu too and stop bringing up Armored Susano'o. Sasuke's featless in that area until EMS which is a completely DIFFERENT Armored Susano'o. Nukite guts it like sashimi.


> His son couldn't get past a V2, I doubt he can get through a V4. And while he is more durable than his son, Amaterasu doesn't stop burning, so its the perfect jutsu to take down durability freaks like him, and he doesn't have the speed to dodge it like his son.


A is _weaker_ than the Sandaime Raikage. The manga made it blatantly clear. And from Nukite's feats, it slashes through Sasuke's Susano'o like its nothing. You are showing you haven't learned at all from your bans that your wanking isn't needed here. 'Amaterasu doesn't stop burning'? Doesnt' matter if the Sandaime breaks Sasuke's neck while burning. Given his durability and the low feats of Amaterasu, the Sandaime could probably survive Amaterasu's duration.



> Itachi retreated to activate the Mangekyou and thats when Naruto told Bee he'd be screwed if he got hit by either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, and Naruto was right.


Naruto was wrong here. He didn't even know Bee fought Sasuke in the first place. And Itachi couldn't do shit against Bee's Seven Sword Dance.


> Itachi later proceeded to save Bee's ass, and sure, Bee's power was necessary to break CT, but it was Itachi who deciphered the weakness of it, and not only that, the one who sealed Nagato, was who????? Oh yes, Uchiha Itachi. And Bee was left saying "That guy was very strong"


God are you this...I'm not completing that sentence. Its not much of a 'weakness'. Itachi couldn't break Chibaku Tensei alone. Naruto couldn't break Chibaku Tensei alone. Only Bee could due to being able to control the full power of Gyuki. And guess what, all Itachi managed to seal was a mind-controlled, poorly used Nagato. Kabuto even forgot Itachi existed you...god you don't change do you?



> Sasuke kept up with V1 Ei and hit him with a Chidori, so whats your point?


Sasuke never 'kept up' with V1 A. All he did was _meet his charge_. There's a difference, there was no contest of speed.


> Danzou was NOT offguard, stop making stuff off.


So being punched from Susano'o, knocked off a pillar and slashed to the point where he's on his knees DOESN'T make Danzo off guard.


> Kakashi didn't get muchhhhhhhh faster in less than an arc, so again, stop making stuff up. If this was the Kakashi that fought Kakuzu MAYBE. But again, stop making stuff up.


Kakashi in the War Arc is on a completely other level than the Kakashi from pre-War arcs in speed, jutsu usage, and stamina. And it was mostly surprise that helped Sasuke there since Kakashi didn't even know Sasuke could use Susano'o, much less it having a long ranged technique.



> He can't break him free because it happens in an instant.
> 
> Do you know what an instant is dude?


Its not 'instant'. It takes place over one second. The space where the Biju is kept operates in an entirely different time scale than the real world. Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to Tsukuyomi. Fucking deal with it and bring it up with Kishimoto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Btw, I will admit, Kirin did break Itachi's V2 Susanoo imo, cause I re-read that, and it looks that way.
> 
> So in that regard, I will accept that.
> 
> ...


But the manga said Perfect Jinchuriki, such as Killer Bee, are immune to genjutsu. The Biju Partner Method is different than what Kakashi was describing since the Biju is sealed INSIDE the body. Not to mention that timescales in the Biju space within the seal are different than in the real world. 

Manga>your opinion since you believe that the Biju's method of breaking genjutsu for their Jinchuriki is different than the method Kakashi described.



> This is the biggest lie you have posted yet.


Sasuke's Enton Manipulation with just the Mangekyo Sharingan is limited to just creating spikes, igniting Susano'o, and putting Amaterasu out. So yeah, its limited and its not able to do what you describe. Only with the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan he gains much dexterity and manipulation with Enton which you describe.




> Sandaime Raikage never showed V2 Raiton cloak, which is the one that has the extra lightning bolts, kinda resembling SSJ2. I required an extra power up from Ei and resulted in increased speed by a huge margin.


The Sandaime Raikage has as much chakra, or even moreso than A. And his speed feats are quite great without it (dodging Rasenshuriken despite the fact it can cross an entire mountain range in less than a second, which is dozens of kilometers). There's no reason why he'd lack that form.


> If the Sandaime Raikage had anywhere this kind of speed, there is absolutely no way in hell that Naruto's clone would have being able to keep up with it, Sage Mode or not, since this type of speed of Ei require KCM from the real Naruto to keep up with.


KCM Naruto clone had as much chakra as the Naruto that created (the one that was nearly fresh). The Sandaime could keep step with that. Sage Mode just provided, as Naruto explained, enhanced senses that enabled him to predict the strike and avoid it and counter. That's why he used Sage Mode.




> This was never stated/proved or whatever. The Sandaime Raikage was noted more than anything for his durability, whereas Ei for his reflexes/speed.


Uh, the Sandaime Raikage was called the greatest and strongest Raikage Kumo ever had. His feats were stalemating Gyuki and fighting off an army 10,000 strong on his own. He is quite above his son.



> In Base he couldn't. Because Bee was conveniently Immune to Regular Genjutsu (not Tsukuyomi), and lets face it, what else does Itachi have in Base? Katons?


...thats the point I made. Bee forced Itachi to use MS, and Bee has counters to it which we saw.



> When he was about to activate MS, Naruto feared for his safety, and even Nagato screamed out telling them to watch out because of how dangerous the Mangekyou Sharingan is, and yet you keep rulling it out like its nothing.


Both Naruto and Nagato didn't know that Killer Bee had faced the Mangekyo Sharingan beforehand and came out on top. Its the lack of knowledge on THEIR end.


> Tsukuyomi one-shotted Kakashi, and then Madara's everyone in the world who was caught in it.


Kakashi was still standing after Tsukuyomi (something which Itachi thought was impressive) and only collapsed shortly afterwards. Itachi's Tsukuyomi isn't anywhere near comparable as Mugen Tsukuyomi.


> Itachi's Totsuka has sealed everyone it has touched I.e. Nagato, Orochimaru.


Nagato _let_ himself be sealed. He completely lowered his defenses and didn't try to resist. Orochimaru isn't in the chakra ballpark as Bee or Naruto, so claiming it can seal either is disingenuous. 


> Amaterasu killed Cerebrus, Frog stomach, Danzou once (he used Izanagi)


Actually, Amaterasu didn't kill the Cerberus. It unsummoned itself after Nagato let himself be hit (that's how the technique works). The Frog Stomach had a visible weakpoint that Itachi exploited. And Danzo was in Izanagi already so all Amaterasu hit was an illusion.

Amaterasu's failed to burn through Samurai Armor, failed to injure Karin (despite burning for a bit), failed to burn stone. When Karin failed to be seriously injured by Amaterasu...kind of showed that it isn't as feared a jutsu it should be.


> Obito probably used Izanagi and died from it once too.


Or he just used Kamui, Amaterasu fell off him, and then he sucked it up.


> These are some strong jutsu.


Not as strong or game breaking as you claim. All have counters which Bee has to.


> Koto managed to Genjutsu Itachi into following its every orders.


Wrong. Kotoamatsukami made Itachi break out of Kabuto's control.


> And Kamui allowed Obito to be able to win againts pretty much everyone had ever faced for the last 16 years and Kakashi's Kamui got so good, Kishimoto had to basically prevent Kakashi from using it offensively againts Pain or Kakuzu, and then canceled by Obito, another Kamui user.


Obito's Kamui was beaten by Minato, remember? And Kakashi's Kamui couldn't be used as well against Pain or Kakuzu since he lacked practice with it and the chakra reserves to maintain it.


> Yes, all jutsus have counters, but Sasuke can work through those by manipulating the flames/re-casting them.


He can't do that as freely with just the Mangekyo though.



> Bee's power wouldn't have mattered at all if Itachi hadn't saved him, if Itachi hadn't figured out Nagato's jutsu weakness, and if Itachi hadn't sealed Nagato. Itachi clearly looked the best in that fight (note how I'm not saying he's stronger than Naruto). But yes, Itachi is stronger than Bee. Especially him since he has the Yata Mirror to block anything, has Totsuka sword to seal him, and has Tsukuyomi, which not even the Hachibi can break him from.


1. Bee could have just transformed fully to break the hold, but that'd put Naruto in danger at the close vicinity.
2. Anyone could have figured out that weakness. Even a mindless KN6 Naruto figured it out.
3. Uh Killer Bee could have sealed Nagato with the Octopus Leg Hold.
4. 'Yata Mirror can block anything', we don't accept hyperbole. Bijudama wipes it out from the feats.
5. Totsuka doesn't have enough chakra to seal Killer Bee.
6. Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu, Tsukuyomi included.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But the manga said Perfect Jinchuriki, such as Killer Bee, are immune to genjutsu. The Biju Partner Method is different than what Kakashi was describing since the Biju is sealed INSIDE the body. Not to mention that timescales in the Biju space within the seal are different than in the real world.



It's still a partner method. I posted a picture of Kakashi saying that bullshit doesn't work on Tsukuyomi, and you discard it away like nothing, so what am I to do dude? What option do I have left? Have Kishimoto call you and tell you you're wrong?

*Then* to top it off, Naruto tells Bee he's fucked if he gets hit by Tsukuyomi, but you don't believe him either. And then you say it's my opinion thats wrong? WTF?



> Sasuke's Enton Manipulation with just the Mangekyo Sharingan is limited to just creating spikes, igniting Susano'o, and putting Amaterasu out. So yeah, its limited and its not able to do what you describe. Only with the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan he gains much dexterity and manipulation with Enton which you describe.


Sasuke manipulated the flames when and however he wanted to with his Mangekyou. He used it to surround Susanoo, and turn them into spikes, like you said. He showed absolutely no limitations with the flames, and his mastery was such that Shii said that Sasuke had one eye for casting Amaterasu, and another whole eye to manipulating the flames, and stated he was likely better than Itachi in this. So again, there is no proof of what you are describing. In essence, it's the comlete opposite. And again, me, unlike you, provided pictures.

Sasuke has a whole Mangekyou eye to use Kagutsuchi, thats the whole point of Kagutsuchi, and yet you say he can't do it, when he actually did fucking do it?



> There's no reason why he'd lack that form.


So for the third time in your post you make up he has something he hasn't shown.

So your argument is like this:

1)Sandaime Raikage has V2 even though he never showed it, because its logical and I say he has it even though he never showed it.

2) KIller Bee can break free from Tsukuyomi, screw what Kakashi said.

But then....... you say 3)Sasuke's Kagutsuchi can't manipulate the flames how he wants it, even though the manga showed it, C stated, and he has a whole freaking Mangekyou eye for that purpose, and he has manipulated however he has wanted to up to this point.

So I'll read you the definition of Enton: Kagutsuchi 

Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is a technique which applies Shape Transformation to the black flames of Amaterasu, *allowing the user to manipulate them at will. *

So, again, you are the one making stuff up, and not providing any proof other than your own biased opinion.




> He is quite above his son.


When was this stated?



> ...thats the point I made. Bee forced Itachi to use MS, and Bee has counters to it which we saw.


Killer Bee has never countered Tsukyuyomi, he countered a very much weaker type of Mangekyou Genjutsu and this was stated at how much weaker the Genjutsu was by both Danzou and Obito. Sasuke's Genjutsu can't manipulate space and time like Itachi can, so Killer Bee would be fucked.



> Its the lack of knowledge on THEIR end.


Except Killer Bee never actually countered a Tsukuyomi. And he countered Amaterasu in Hachibi form, while here he was in Base. And when he countered Amaterasu againts Sasuke, since Sasuke was so preocuppied with Karin and co, he didn't notice that he himself cut the limb until much later, but here, if he saw Hachibi cutting a limb, he'd figure it out and just ignite the cut limb. Here, by Itachi, he could have actually being killed before he could enter Hachibi Mode, or being seriously injured. And in Sasuke's case who can manipulate the flames it's actually worst since if  Bee escapes once via a tentacle, if he gets caught again, Sasuke will make sure to catch the whole Hachibi in flames, including all of his limbs. It's just common sense, no?



> Kakashi was still standing after Tsukuyomi (something which Itachi thought was impressive) and only collapsed shortly afterwards. Itachi's Tsukuyomi isn't anywhere near comparable as Mugen Tsukuyomi.


Itachi stated that Kakashi had some resistance to it due to having a Sharingan himself, even though he didn't have Uchiha blood. And being on his knees for a few seconds matter how? Do I need to remind you that Kakashi was on a hospital bed for 7 days and got out thanks to Tsunade's healing due to that Tsukuyomi he ate?




> Nagato _let_ himself be sealed.


Nagato didn't let himself be sealed. Read the manga. Kabuto was controlling him. And Kabuto said it was Nagato's immobility which led to his dimiss. It was still an impressive feat how fast Itachi cast Totsuka, and did so with his vision clouded by the smoke.



> Orochimaru isn't in the chakra ballpark as Bee or Naruto, so claiming it can seal either is disingenuous.


So again, lets discard the feat just cause it's not convenient for you? Please, atleast give credit where credit is due.



> Amaterasu's failed to burn through Samurai Armor, failed to injure Karin (despite burning for a bit), failed to burn stone. When Karin failed to be seriously injured by Amaterasu...kind of showed that it isn't as feared a jutsu it should be.


Amaterasu has the potential to wipe out Bijuu and you know it.

If they can escape it via cutting of limbs, then Sasuke can just re-use it and cover the whole bijuu, including his limbs. It's not a perfect jutsu but its a good jutsu, that even till this point in the manga has being useful.

What about the crow Itachi hit and it killed instantly? Didn't it kill Nagato pretty quickly?

You're just using stuff that benefits you and ignoring the rest, typical debate here.



> Or he just used Kamui, Amaterasu fell off him, and then he sucked it up.


Kamui doesn't make sense since the guy hadn't used the sniping type of Kamui yet first, and second because if he had used Kamui he could have probably taken out the piece of flesh that was covered by his Kamui, and that didn't happen. Defensive Kamui wouldn't have worked since the guy was already hit by it.



> Wrong. Kotoamatsukami made Itachi break out of Kabuto's control.


Then it worked. And it was such a good jutsu both Kabuto and Obito wanted it.



> Obito's Kamui was beaten by Minato, remember? And Kakashi's Kamui couldn't be used as well against Pain or Kakuzu since he lacked practice with it and the chakra reserves to maintain it.


Minato was an elite Hokage, and Obito unexperienced with the jutsu.

It allowed Obito to pawn with the Narutoverse with years.

Someone like Nagato couldn't kill Obito because of that one MS jutsu.

Kakashi probably could have sniped Pain's head off if not for PIS and we both know this. Kishimoto held back Kamui's potential until he actually faced someone who could counter it with his own Kamui, Obito, because if not, Kakashi could have solo'd anyone.

Hell, Kakashi told Naruto that if he hadn't shown up, he'd have used the Mangekyou Sharingan.

And the slow arrows you mentioned were stopped thanks to his eye.



> He can't do that as freely with just the Mangekyo though.


No proof. I posted a definition, pictures, Shii's explanation. You post your biased opinion.



> 1. Bee could have just transformed fully to break the hold, but that'd put Naruto in danger at the close vicinity.


Pffft.... Hurt Naruto? The guy was stronger than Bee. Naruto withstood everything the war threw at him and was fine. Naruto wouldn't be hurt by anything bar the Bijuudama from Hachibi. If Bee could have transformed he would have. Instead, he was relying on Naruto transforming because he was the weakest link there, just like he was the weak link againts Obito, Madara, etc.



> 2. Anyone could have figured out that weakness. Even a mindless KN6 Naruto figured it out.


Naruto broke out out of pure power. Itachi figured out a plan in seconds, something neither Bee nor Naruto were capabale of.



> 3. Uh Killer Bee could have sealed Nagato with the Octopus Leg Hold.


Except that attack is much slower than Itachi's Totsuka, and can be dispersed with just pure chakra like V2 Jins *actually did in the manga.*

Nagato would have sent them flying with a huge ass Shinra Tensei. Whereas once Totsuka pierces you, you're going down the bottle.

In real life, the whole in his chest, or anyone else's chest for that matter, would have spelled inmediate death.



> 'Yata Mirror can block anything', we don't accept hyperbole. Bijudama wipes it out from the feats.


Thats youre opinion.

I doubt Bee's Bijuudama is any more powerful than Gai's Hirudora and that only worked againts V2 Susanoo, which didn't have Yata Mirror.




> 5. Totsuka doesn't have enough chakra to seal Killer Bee.


This is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard on the forums.



> 6. Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu, Tsukuyomi included.


Again, a lot of bs here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> It's still a partner method. I posted a picture of Kakashi saying that bullshit doesn't work on Tsukuyomi, and you discard it away like nothing, so what am I to do dude? What option do I have left? Have Kishimoto call you and tell you you're wrong?
> 
> *Then* to top it off, Naruto tells Bee he's fucked if he gets hit by Tsukuyomi, but you don't believe him either. And then you say it's my opinion thats wrong? WTF?


Yes, it is wrong. The manga flat out said that Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu. There weren't any 'uh, well that genjutsu can work'. Manga flat out says so. You are only claiming Tsukuyomi will work since you want Itachi to be special.



> Sasuke manipulated the flames when and however he wanted to with his Mangekyou. He used it to surround Susanoo, and turn them into spikes, like you said. He showed absolutely no limitations with the flames, and his mastery was such that Shii said that Sasuke had one eye for casting Amaterasu, and another whole eye to manipulating the flames, and stated he was likely better than Itachi in this. So again, there is no proof of what you are describing. In essence, it's the comlete opposite. And again, me, unlike you, provided pictures.
> 
> Sasuke has a whole Mangekyou eye to use Kagutsuchi, thats the whole point of Kagutsuchi, and yet you say he can't do it, when he actually did fucking do it?


Sasuke's skill with Enton went up when he got EMS and he could freely use it without backlash. Sasuke can't do ANYTHING you described with just the Mangekyo Sharingan. He lacks the skill and power to do so during that time. You're going by what you THINK he can do, not by what he has SHOWN. There is a difference.



> So for the third time in your post you make up he has something he hasn't shown.
> 
> So your argument is like this:
> 
> 1)Sandaime Raikage has V2 even though he never showed it, because its logical and I say he has it even though he never showed it.


If he has as much chakra as his son, why should he lack it?


> 2) KIller Bee can break free from Tsukuyomi, screw what Kakashi said.


Since Kakashi never knew Perfect Jinchruiki even existed at that point in time! Really, why do you think he was taking to account Perfect Jinchuriki during that time?


> But then....... you say 3)Sasuke's Kagutsuchi can't manipulate the flames how he wants it, even though the manga showed it, C stated, and he has a whole freaking Mangekyou eye for that purpose, and he has manipulated however he has wanted to up to this point.


He can manipulate flames, but he can't do it as FREELY as he can with the EMS.


> So I'll read you the definition of Enton: Kagutsuchi
> 
> Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is a technique which applies Shape Transformation to the black flames of Amaterasu, *allowing the user to manipulate them at will. *
> 
> So, again, you are the one making stuff up, and not providing any proof other than your own biased opinion.


Yet why was he limited to just a few manipulations with the Mangekyo? You act like he can do all sorts of things when he only displayed two, basic transformations of Amaterasu with the Mangekyo.




> When was this stated?


554. Sandaime Raikage is blatantly called the strongest Raikage Kumo ever had. 



> Killer Bee has never countered Tsukyuyomi, he countered a very much weaker type of Mangekyou Genjutsu and this was stated at how much weaker the Genjutsu was by both Danzou and Obito. Sasuke's Genjutsu can't manipulate space and time like Itachi can, so Killer Bee would be fucked.


Killer Bee doesn't need to have prior experience. The manga flat out says Perfect Jinchuriki are immune to genjutsu. You cite an earlier case when Perfect Jinchuriki weren't even a concept. In essence, you're ignoring a retcon so you can have Itachi be your special little snowflake.



> Except Killer Bee never actually countered a Tsukuyomi. And he countered Amaterasu in Hachibi form, while here he was in Base. And when he countered Amaterasu againts Sasuke, since Sasuke was so preocuppied with Karin and co, he didn't notice that he himself cut the limb until much later, but here, if he saw Hachibi cutting a limb, he'd figure it out and just ignite the cut limb. Here, by Itachi, he could have actually being killed before he could enter Hachibi Mode, or being seriously injured. And in Sasuke's case who can manipulate the flames it's actually worst since if  Bee escapes once via a tentacle, if he gets caught again, Sasuke will make sure to catch the whole Hachibi in flames, including all of his limbs. It's just common sense, no?


Except it isn't. 'Never encountering Tsukuyomi'. Doesn't matter, manga flat out states Killer Bee would be immune. And Sasuke cannot and will not with just the base Mangekyo Sharingan be able to spread the flames as you say. Only with the EMS he has those feats. Stop. Claiming. Sasuke. Can. Without. EMS.



> Itachi stated that Kakashi had some resistance to it due to having a Sharingan himself, even though he didn't have Uchiha blood. And being on his knees for a few seconds matter how? Do I need to remind you that Kakashi was on a hospital bed for 7 days and got out thanks to Tsunade's healing due to that Tsukuyomi he ate?


Fact of the matter is Kakashi wasn't immediately knocked out by it which Itachi and Kisame found impressive. If it couldn't immediately knock out Part I Kakashi, what good is Tsukuyomi in Part II when power levels have skyrocketed? 




> Nagato didn't let himself be sealed. Read the manga. Kabuto was controlling him. And Kabuto said it was Nagato's immobility which led to his dimiss. It was still an impressive feat how fast Itachi cast Totsuka, and did so with his vision clouded by the smoke.


The moment Nagato was stabbed, was the moment Kabuto's control was broken. If Nagato didn't let himself be sealed, why did he _apologize and thank them for beating him?_ And no, it wasn't impressive. Hitting someone who couldn't move, who was being controlled by someone who didn't know what they can do isn't impressive in the slightest. OOOH, Itachi stabbed a cripple, SO impressive!



> So again, lets discard the feat just cause it's not convenient for you? Please, atleast give credit where credit is due.


Show me when Itachi displays some Biju levels of chakra and we'll talk. You don't seem to quite get these things.



> Amaterasu has the potential to wipe out Bijuu and you know it.


You mean a Biju that is playing an act? Amaterasu's feats are shit and you know it.


> If they can escape it via cutting of limbs, then Sasuke can just re-use it and cover the whole bijuu, including his limbs. It's not a perfect jutsu but its a good jutsu, that even till this point in the manga has being useful.


Sasuke wouldn't even guess to do that. And even then, with just the MS, he's suffering a backlash. Why do you ignore the toll it takes on his body?


> What about the crow Itachi hit and it killed instantly? Didn't it kill Nagato pretty quickly?


Crow: insanely small target, any basic Katon can do the same. And no, it didn't. Nagato barely was damaged after_prolonged burning_. 


> You're just using stuff that benefits you and ignoring the rest, typical debate here.


The moment Amaterasu failed to even seriously injure _Karin_ was the moment the jutsu was shown that its hype was all fake.



> Kamui doesn't make sense since the guy hadn't used the sniping type of Kamui yet first, and second because if he had used Kamui he could have probably taken out the piece of flesh that was covered by his Kamui, and that didn't happen. Defensive Kamui wouldn't have worked since the guy was already hit by it.


Obito could have sucked Amaterasu into Kamui or just phase and let the flames fall off. The moment he'd enter his own dimension the flames would fall off.



> Then it worked. And it was such a good jutsu both Kabuto and Obito wanted it.


Only there was what, a 1 in a million chance Itachi would have even found Naruto in the first place, and Kotoamatsukami would have finished being charged? 



> Minato was an elite Hokage, and Obito unexperienced with the jutsu.


Obito showed zero 'inexperience' with Kamui then. He pretty much had mastered its power.


> It allowed Obito to pawn with the Narutoverse with years.


That is true, but that puts him above Sasuke and Itachi doesn't it?


> Someone like Nagato couldn't kill Obito because of that one MS jutsu.


Actually, Obito flat out called Nagato invincible. Nagato was the strongest member of Akatsuki, not Obito.


> Kakashi probably could have sniped Pain's head off if not for PIS and we both know this. Kishimoto held back Kamui's potential until he actually faced someone who could counter it with his own Kamui, Obito, because if not, Kakashi could have solo'd anyone.


Kakashi still wasn't skilled enough with Kamui at that time. It took too long to build up for him and he couldn't aim it properly. Plus Kakashi seemed to think Shinra Tensei could disrupt it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

> Hell, Kakashi told Naruto that if he hadn't shown up, he'd have used the Mangekyou Sharingan.


That's true, since at that point Kamui was Kakashi's last resort.


> And the slow arrows you mentioned were stopped thanks to his eye.


They were slow. They aren't anywhere near as fast as the FRS or other techniques known for their speed. Kakashi flat out wasn't expecting Sasuke to have the Susano'o, much less a ranged one.



> No proof. I posted a definition, pictures, Shii's explanation. You post your biased opinion.


I'm going by what Sasuke has shown _with_ the Mangekyo. He can manipulate the flames, but until he got EMS, he couldn't manipulate them as freely as you claim. Is that really so hard for you to grasp?



> Pffft.... Hurt Naruto? The guy was stronger than Bee. Naruto withstood everything the war threw at him and was fine. Naruto wouldn't be hurt by anything bar the Bijuudama from Hachibi. If Bee could have transformed he would have. Instead, he was relying on Naruto transforming because he was the weakest link there, just like he was the weak link againts Obito, Madara, etc.


Stop being so obtuse. Naruto was in a fucking Soul Tug of War there. If Bee transformed, a several thousand ton Ushi-Ona would have _crushed_ him, if not ruined his concentration and would have lost his soul. Bee didn't transform since he didn't want Naruto to die.

Until Naruto got Biju Mode, Bee was the one showing him the ropes. He was the one showing him how to fight with his power. Bee was by no means the 'weak link'.

Flat out answer this question: do you hate Killer Bee? Your downplay is so pathetic I have to ask.



> Naruto broke out out of pure power. Itachi figured out a plan in seconds, something neither Bee nor Naruto were capabale of.


A mindless KN6 Naruto fires upon the sphere does absolutely nothing.

Itachi stated the obvious. Naruto didn't think it would work since he already tried it but had no other option. You think what Itachi did was really impressive?


> Except that attack is much slower than Itachi's Totsuka, and can be dispersed with just pure chakra like V2 Jins *actually did in the manga.*


If Nagato was stunned or heavily damage, that showed more than enough time.


> Nagato would have sent them flying with a huge ass Shinra Tensei. Whereas once Totsuka pierces you, you're going down the bottle.


Unless Nagato tries fighting back and just, you know, _absorbs Totsuka's blade._


> In real life, the whole in his chest, or anyone else's chest for that matter, would have spelled inmediate death.


This isn't real life.



> Thats youre opinion.
> 
> I doubt Bee's Bijuudama is any more powerful than Gai's Hirudora and that only worked againts V2 Susanoo, which didn't have Yata Mirror.


Gai's Hirudora could _fit in comfortably_ in the Biju Hachimaki crater. And it worked on a Complete Susano'o, stop fucking lying. Bee's Bijudama can wipe out mountains and fill valley's. Its magnitudes stronger.

And it isn't opinion. Yata Mirror does NOT have the feats to back up its hype. That's why its called HYPERBOLE. By your logic, since the Kabutowari was said to be able to smash through any defense, even Yata Mirror will fail. Why does one hyperbole immediately not make sense, but for Itachi's you bend over backwards to try to say it isn't?




> is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard on the forums.


Itachi has a 2.5 in stamina. He isn't going to be able to seal a Biju.



> Again, a lot of bs here.


Since I'm not using no-limits fallacies like you are? Since I'm using what the manga showed? Oh that's right, you want to continually use an outdated statement.


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2014)

Killer B has better odds to win. While Sasuke will die from B's upper end attacks like Bijuu Bomb or continuos Bijuu-Bomb. In B's case he can survive Amaterasu and Enton attacks with Kwarimi. B's Kwarimi also gives him an opening to blindside Sasuke.


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## Csdabest (Aug 11, 2014)

Sasuke wins. Amaterasu still roasts Killer Bee. This time their is no need for Sasuke to get saved and their is no need to save comrades. Levels of V4 Susano-o has shown to tank Bijuudamas. Sasuke shown that if he used Amaterasu from the beginning Bee would die. Nothing has changed and just giving Sasuke who seems to have his mastery of Mangekyo at the level your indicating further places Bee in a disadvantage


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They were slow. They aren't anywhere near as fast as the FRS or other techniques known for their speed. Kakashi flat out wasn't expecting Sasuke to have the Susano'o, much less a ranged one.


Both Kakashi and Danzou stated they were fast, so you're wrong here.



> I'm going by what Sasuke has shown _with_ the Mangekyo. He can manipulate the flames, but until he got EMS, he couldn't manipulate them as freely as you claim. Is that really so hard for you to grasp?


You admit that Sasuke *CAN* manipulate Amaterasu, how much he manipulates it is not up to you to determine. If he could spread the flames to cover his entire Susano, and to make spikes, and to put it out. He showed every single type of Amaterasu control he ever needed, to the point Shii states he has one eye to cast Amaterasu, and the other to manipulate it.

Even if it's not to the degree that you say he has with EMS, considering he can use the Mangekyou over 7 times, spreading them each time should give him the win.

Considering if he gets Bee on Base, Bee is gonna sustain even more damage. Everytime he uses Kawarimi he's gonna be fucked up.

Or if you prefer, Sasuke can drive an arrow through the Hachibi's skull.


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke wins. Amaterasu still roasts Killer Bee. This time their is no need for Sasuke to get saved and their is no need to save comrades. Levels of V4 Susano-o has shown to tank Bijuudamas. Sasuke shown that if he used Amaterasu from the beginning Bee would die. Nothing has changed and just giving Sasuke who seems to have his mastery of Mangekyo at the level your indicating further places Bee in a disadvantage



When did V4 Susano'o show it can tank Bijuu-damas let alone Hachibi's  max power Bijuu dama or Hachibi's continuous Bijuu-dama?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Answer is never.


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