# Sanji vs. Killer



## Empathy (Aug 7, 2021)

Who do you think would win between the two current versions? Say they fight on Wano, IC with manga knowledge. Discuss.


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## ShadoLord (Aug 7, 2021)

Killer. 

unless Sanji beat Queen in base and goes on to KO King with RS.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Aug 7, 2021)

Oda made Killer match up against a weaker person, and Sanji is in the MC's crew, Sanji should be stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 2


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## shintebukuro (Aug 7, 2021)

Killer vs. _Base_ Sanji is probably a good matchup.


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## Ruse (Aug 7, 2021)

RS Sanji > Killer > Base Sanji 

I think I said Raid suit Sanji would need extreme diff for Killer in the previous thread changed my mind a bit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Aug 7, 2021)

Killer. Even he has better feats and portrayal than Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JustSumGuy (Aug 8, 2021)

I mean, yeah Killer was on the roof but Sanji’s fighting Queen now while Killer is fighting Hawkins.

I’m betting on the Straw Hat.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

JustSumGuy said:


> I mean, yeah Killer was on the roof but Sanji’s fighting Queen now while Killer is fighting Hawkins.
> 
> I’m betting on the Straw Hat.


So why isn't Hawkins now as strong as Rooftop instead of what you're doing?


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## JayK (Aug 8, 2021)

the character way more relevant to the overarching story who is about to be at least YC1 level is obviously gonna dog diff an unimportant side character fighting another fodder

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eustathios (Aug 8, 2021)

Killer high diff


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> So why isn't Hawkins now as strong as Rooftop instead of what you're doing?


Queen is very likely stronger than Hawkins. Heck Jack should be too. This is taking place in a wider world.
Hawkins is a member of the Beast Pirates, an Headliner.
And it would be very bold to claim that he's somehow stronger than the character who's been Kaido's n°3 for decades.....
Is there any chance Hawkins is stronger than Queen when we see how Oda portrays Apoo's interactions with the calamity ?
Hawkins could threaten Apoo like Queen does?
One thing has been consistent since his introduction,  Queen has been disrespecting very strong characters such as Jack, Apoo or Drake. That's serious portrayal.
Queen has literally been bullying Apoo and Drake on Onigashima.....

Sanji high diff.
Glad to see folks slowly coming back to their senses.
Once upon a time, would have called you crazy or biased to think that Sanji was above. Always been a forgone conclusion.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Aug 8, 2021)

Will wait and see. Tangoing with 2 yonko is still better than dancing with Queen. But on the other hand, Queen defeated one of those Yonks before. It's a really hard choice. And iam pretty sure Sanji is about to redeem himself in terms of powerlevel after that long streak since post ts.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Because Hawkins is a member of the Beast Pirates, an Headliner.


Killer was technically a pleasure that worked for Orochi. Rank means nothing.




Mylesime said:


> And it would be very bold to claim that he's somehow stronger than the character who's been Kaido's n°3 for decades.....


I'd agree if Oda didn't have Killer on 2 separate occasions casually dealing with an issue that scared the shit out of a bunch of guys that were as strong as Kaido's number 3, among his other superior feats to those characters....

And have Killer then face Hawkins with the expectation it's supposed to be a difficult fight, then it's not so bold at all.




Mylesime said:


> Is there any chance Hawkins is stronger than Queen when we see how Oda portrays Apoo's interactions with the calamity ?


Is Apoo Hawkins? Was Apoo portrayed as superior to Hawkins or his equal?




Mylesime said:


> Queen has literally been bullying Apoo and Drake on Onigashima.....


Queen ambushed Drake. And both of these guys aren't Hawkins 

Your entire argument has so far been about Apoo. And this is not even getting into the Fallacy of "Arguing from Incredulity". It's not logical at all.


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Killer was technically a pleasure that worked for Orochi. Rank means nothing.


Wrong.
*An admiral is likely stronger than a vice admiral.*
Rank means something, it's not irrefutable proof since counter examples and exceptions such as Garp are possible.
But most of the time, the higher ranked character is stronger.
Here, there are almost a dozen  characters between Hawkins and Queen in the Beast pirates hierarchy.
It's not irrefutable proof, but by default Queen is likely the superior character, unless something proves that it's an exception.
Clashing against Killer is not such thing......




Kagutsutchi said:


> I'd agree if Oda didn't have Killer on 2 separate occasions casually dealing with an issue that scared the shit out of a bunch of guys that were as strong as Kaido's number 3, among his other superior feats to those characters....


Queen fought Big Mom for some Oshiruko and brought her to Kaido on Onigashima.
It's so ridiculous that it's laughable, and contradicts the idea that fear of a superior character paralyzes him.
I have not seen Killer deal casually with anything that paralyze a bunch of characters on par with Queen.


He's got the superior "feat".
@TheWiggian is trolling, #AdmiralGang, but our agendas are aligned this time. I would not call this a defeat, but he did capture her.
Demeanor and personality can be misleading, Hawkins and Killer are stoic, Queen is a clown yet he's likely stronger and a cyborg/inhuman.



Kagutsutchi said:


> And have Killer then face Hawkins with the expectation it's supposed to be a difficult fight, then it's not so bold at all.


The Rooftop feats are overwanked, and some act like we did not see several character have feats against top tiers beforehand.
Jinbei, Capone, Vista, Joz, Teach, Reiju, Queen, Ashuara doji, Denjiro, Kinemon , Brook etc,etc...... we've seen several characters rack up similar feats compared to killer's against top tiers.



Kagutsutchi said:


> Is Apoo Hawkins? Was Apoo portrayed as superior to Hawkins or his equal?


Once again these actions are not isolated, folks act like what Yamato or Killer did against the Yonkous has never been seen before, i've seen Capone and Reiju endure attacks from Big Mom, seen Jinbei avoid or endure attacks from top tiers before. I've seen the scabbards deal superior damages to Kaido. I've seen Brook deal with Big Mom homies due to an advantageous match up
The scabbards and several supernovas went back downstairs, and they are not destroying their current opponents.
So the idea that the warriors who were on the Rooftop are on another level to all the others automatically has been debunked.
Hawkins is not the only character facing a guy who fought the Yonkous......
Chances are few of them are above Queen.
These wide gaps in strength never existed.

I've also seen Who's Who be decent against the former warlord for example.
Killer is strong, but nothing he's done so far put him on another tier compared to Jinbei for example. Specially not simply because he was on the Rooftop and did a good job, without any significant result against Kaido or Big Mom.
Apoo and Hawkins portrayal put them in the same tier.
Apoo tanked sneak attacks from Zoro, and Kidd, and is still fighting X Drake.
He's strong. Perfectly comparable to Killer even tough i would obviously give the nod to killer.
Nothing suggests that Hawkins is on another level, he might be stronger, which is possilble and not a crazy take, but nothing suggests that Hawkins is significantly stronger than Apoo.
Portrayal wise bullying Apoo, on top of outranking Hawkins seriously suggest that Queen is above.
We have a clear tendency, not irrefutable proof.
*It's highly unlikely that Apoo would be threatened by Killer when we see him disrespect Kidd any chance he gets.*



Kagutsutchi said:


> Queen ambushed Drake. And both of these guys aren't Hawkins



Portrayal matters, actually supersede feats (that's why we know Dragon is likely a top 10 character easily)
*Who's Who brought X Drake to Queen to handle his betrayal, which indicates superiority over both.*
He was questioning him to find out who sent him and what he was looking for.
Drake had no other choice but to switch sides and ask for Luffy's assistance.
This scene is clear, Queen was the leader, he was in charge, and it shows that Who's Who had no guarantee to be able to deal with Drake 1 VS 1.
We also know that Queen has some level of authority over the tobbi ropos ,to some extent,  since he was the one who sent Page 1 and Drake on a mission: deal with Sanji.
Hawkins was teaming up with Drake in the flower capital, they are two supernovas,etc,etc. Nothing suggests that Hawkins is on another level compared to Drake or Apoo, everything indicates that the three characters are close in power



Kagutsutchi said:


> Your entire argument has so far been about Apoo. And this is not even getting into the Fallacy of "Arguing from Incredulity". It's not logical at all.


No.
*My argument is that, these events are not isolated. The dynamics in this story are decades old. And Oda tries to sustain a certain level of consistency in the grand scheme .*
The supernovas have generally been portrayed as very close in strength, their choices and their paths differentiate them then.
*It was highlighted by Oda that tough fights are the only way to significantly grow at this point. That's how Luffy pulled away, Doflamingo, Craker, Katakuri forced him to grow.*
Zoro and Luffy powered up facing superior opponents, Kidd and Law have a huge chance of powering up too since they're facing Big Mom and will need to evolve to survive, i'm sure Killer will win because he did not bend the knee in front of Kaido contrary to Hawkins and Apoo but facing a fellow supernova won't push him as much as others, and so his growth will be inferior, Drake too will evolve since he also chose to oppose the Yonkous and did not simply quit.
But so far nothing put Killer, nor Hawkins on another level compared to Drake, Jinbei and characters like that.
And all those guys are likely weaker than Queen.

You're the one basing your whole argument on the fact that Hawkins is somehow on another level, because he's facing Killer...... who quite frankly has not done anything putting him significantly above characters like Jinbei, Inuarashi, X drake and co yet.
I'm sorry it's factual Killer's feats against the Yonkous don't put him way above a character like Jinbei for example. His rooftop feats don't put him way above the elite fighters on Onigashima.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Aug 8, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> @TheWiggian* is trolling*, #AdmiralGang, but our agendas are aligned this time. I would not call this a defeat, but he did capture her.
> Demeanor and personality can be misleading, Hawkins and Killer are stoic, Queen is a clown yet he's likely stronger and a cyborg/inhuman.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## Great Potato (Aug 8, 2021)

I'd give the edge to Killer extreme for now, but that could change depending on how the match-ups go.

I wouldn't read too much into match-ups before we see how they actually play out. I remember people massively hyping up Who's Who because he got paired against Jinbe, but then the fight happened and he got put in a body bag as soon as Jinbe got serious. Jinbe tanked his best moves with his face, had WW breaking his fingers on his CoA, and then packed him up with his finisher. On the contrast Nami & Usopp got hyped for being matched with the Ulti & Page One duo, only for Big Mom to do 90% of the work.

We don't know how much of a fight that Hawkins will actually give Killer, and Oda can realistically make Basil as dangerous as he wants since he already foreshadowed tarots that allow him to shoot past his limits.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Wrong.
> *An admiral is likely stronger than a vice admiral.*
> Rank means something, it's not irrefutable proof since counter examples and exceptions such as Garp are possible.
> But most of the time, the higher ranked character is stronger.
> ...


Hawkins has proven that his rank I a false estimation of his true power since he's fighting Killer. That's all.

He's also fought almost all the other rooftop supernova. Hawkins portrayal isn't Headliner level since he has much better feats than basically all of them and then some.

Miss me with the rest of that text wall since I don't have the energy for that.

Ultimately I will likely be proven right.

EDIT: I have no problem with people saying Sanji wins and I even see where they're coming from.

What I do have a problem with are the people who claim Sanji wins because Killer is apparently fighting a Headliner and as such all his prior feats are invalid.


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Hawkins has proven that his rank I a false estimation of his true power since he's fighting Killer. That's all.
> 
> He's also fought almost all the other rooftop supernova. Hawkins portrayal isn't Headliner level since he has much better feats than basically all of them and then some.
> 
> ...



Hawkins has the same rank as X Drake and Apoo, who also fought several supernovas.
They're headliners.
His rank is perfectly in line with his level.
They were the next best thing after the calamities.
They might power up and surpass said commanders but before the events of Onigashima,  Jack was likely stronger than them.

Makes perfect sense,  specially when taking into account how Urouge was hyped and how his victory caused Snack removal from the sweet commanders  unit in Totland.
Capone had a similar rank in Big Mom's crew.
The Supernovas were for the most part comparable to the best veterans, tobbi ropos, etc what some call "YC4".
Which highlights once again that events are linked and take place in a wider world, a world Oda tries to keep coherent. And so far Killer hasn't done anything putting him significantly above those other high tiers.
I will not bother exchanging extensively with you in the future, my bad.

If Killer low diff Hawkins, i will be the first to aknowledge that he's likely superior to Queen and likely  "YFM" level.
But again i also remember what Doffy did to Law on Dressrosa, so said superiority would be relative.

He has to prove himself tough, that's how a debate works, burden of proof is on the side who claims an hypothesis.
So far based on what we've got, Hawkins is on par with Killer, or Apoo, or Drake, Jinbei, Inuarashi and co.
I've seen the scabbards against Kaido, and if a commander like Izo, or scrubbs like Raizo did well, no doubt in my mind that any Supernova could fare well in a tag team.
And i've seen how Queen was portrayed relatively to Apoo.

And so far imo nothing shown by Killer put him significantly above Inuarashi, Jinbei and co...... let alone Queen.
I might be wrong,  not that big of a deal.
He has to dispaly said abilities tough.

Anyway Sanji's potential victory seems less crazy. Still remember that wasn't the case a few months ago..... we're getting there.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Aug 8, 2021)

Killer and sanji should be in the same ballpark hard to say. Last arc most commanders pose a threat to them


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## MrPopo (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> So why isn't Hawkins now as strong as Rooftop instead of what you're doing?


Hawkings got stomped by Law

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Mihawk (Aug 8, 2021)

Going with Sanji if both are at full strength and with all power ups like RS taken into account.

I think it's a high/extreme diff fight, but more so because I think Kidd's first mate deserves some credit.


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## shintebukuro (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> I'd agree if Oda didn't have Killer on 2 separate occasions casually dealing with an issue that scared the shit out of a bunch of guys that were as strong as Kaido's number 3, among his other superior feats to those characters....



After a quick scan of the manga, I couldn't quite locate these instances you are talking about...


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

shintebukuro said:


> After a quick scan of the manga, I couldn't quite locate these instances you are talking about...


Kaido's wind scythes that had Denjiro scared as fuck and shocked the rest of the scabbards. Meanwhile Killer dealt with them casually on two separate occasions.

That's the guy who apparently has nothing to place him above Inuarashi

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lord Melkor (Aug 8, 2021)

I think Killer defeats base Sanji but may lose to RS after a difficult fight. I believe they are at similar level overall i.e. top YC commander level.


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## MrPopo (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Kaido's wind scythes that had Denjiro scared as fuck and shocked the rest of the scabbards. Meanwhile Killer dealt with them casually on two separate occasions.
> 
> That's the guy who apparently has nothing to place him above Inuarashi


Queen > Jack, How does this help Killers case?


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

I did not say that Killer was weaker than Inuarashi, i said that they were on a similar tier. Which they are, they're high tiers.
Which i'll say again. Sulong inuarashi?
Of course he can fuck with Killer.
I'm not downplaying Killer, it's the other way around inuarashi is strong.

Show me.
I've seen Zoro power up and awaken whatever the fuck Ashura truly is. Showcased top tier level Atack power.
So he's safely a borderline low top tier.
Killer has not done anything comparable yet.
I'm sorry it's the truth.
He's still in the same tier as Sanji, Jinbei and co. Nothing against anyone giving an high/extreme diff fight victory to Killer. My stance has been the same for months.
*Sanji high diff.*
However have to remember that a Sanji victory was considered as some crazy concept, and many had Killer fucking with Marco at the time.
The character was for sure stronger than Katakuri.
All of this shit happened.
And based on their current match ups, Sanji has better chances to display greater strength.


Rather than being humbled (it happens to all of us, pre ts would have never thought Doffy was a mere YC3 fighter, Black Maria bitchslaping Sanji was asinine imo) we're seeing Hawkins wank, as if he was likely a FM level fighter, or as if there was a strong chance that hawkins was significantly stronger than Drake or Apoo.
It's time to let it go. That's it


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## shintebukuro (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Kaido's wind scythes that had Denjiro scared as fuck and shocked the rest of the scabbards. Meanwhile Killer dealt with them casually on two separate occasions.



So, KIller dealt with wind scythes more casually than Denjirou, who seemed a bit more shocked at them (not "scared as fuck"). 

Umm, I guess that's _something_.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 8, 2021)

Base sanji extreme diffs killer, rs sanji mid diffs him

Reactions: Winner 1


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## LaniDani (Aug 8, 2021)

RS Sanji clearly stronger than Killer.


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Queen > Jack, How does this help Killers case?


It's not supposed to. My point is, you can't see Killer easily perform above YC3 level and then say that because he's fighting Hawkins(who has performed on par with other rooftop supernova), that he must now be Headliner level for some reason.

And even then, Killer still has more feats that are way above multiple scabbards put together to help his case against Queen


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## Corax (Aug 8, 2021)

Go with Sanji here. But we have to wait 2-3 chapters before his real feats vs Queen.


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> It's not supposed to. My point is, you can't see Killer easily perform above YC3 level and then say that because he's fighting Hawkins(who has performed on par with other rooftop supernova), that he must now be Headliner level for some reason.



That's the part of your argument i don't get.
How are Killer's feats on the Rooftop significantly better than Jinbei's feats against Top tiers (be it Aka inu or Big Mom), heck or even Denjiro's feats?
Is Jinbei also superior to "YC3"?
If so how can we explain his dominant , but still medium difficulty win against Who's Who, specially when one remembers what Doffy a "YC3" level fighter did on Dressrosa?

We're not denying Killer's rooftop feats, we're simply taking into account Reiju's, Capone's, Jinbei's, Denjiro's, Ulti's feats.... against top tiers.
It does make sense. We aren't scaling down anyone. Those feats are valid too.
At this rate the only way to defend Killer supposed unbelievable performance that you qualify as something that he casually does while YC2 fighters are afraid to perform..... We'll end up having hawkins and Who's Who as top commander level fighters.
You are the one scaling up Hawkins feats and portrayal to explain his ability to stall Killer.

Let's be perfectly clear, the only way for your explanation to hold up would be to see Killer destroy Hawkins.
That's the only logical result if he's as strong as you claim.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beast (Aug 8, 2021)

Killer 
Being able to damage Kaidou is a lot better then having P1 walk off your attack.


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Beast said:


> Killer
> Being able to damage Kaidou is a lot better then having P1 walk off your attack.



Because Killer almost killed Kaido?



2/10 For the execution.
I know you're talking shit, but i've seen you do it better, this is truly disapointing.
This bait is not effective.
If Page 1 walked off Sanji's attacks the fuck Kaido did after Killer's assault?



Ashura barely left a scar.


Come on now. Getting low diffed by Kaido is not as good as some of the fans make it sound.
Yes Kaido would low diff Sanji and Killer based on what they've shown so far. Heck Luffy can still barely push this shit to a mid diff fight.


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 8, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> That's the part of your argument i don't get.
> How are Killer's feats on the Rooftop significantly better than Jinbei's feats against Top tiers (be it Aka inu or Big Mom), heck or even Denjiro's feats?


Because Killer fucking harmed a Yonko and tanked multiple Yonko attacks way better than Jinbei or Denjiro.

Anyway. I'm not going to be arguing with you anymore. Simply comparing him with Jinbei or Denjiro despite his vastly better feats is enough for me to see there is no point in a further discussion


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## Mylesime (Aug 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Because Killer fucking harmed a Yonko and tanked multiple Yonko attacks way better than Jinbei or Denjiro.
> 
> Anyway. I'm not going to be arguing with you anymore. Simply comparing him with Jinbei or Denjiro despite his vastly better feats is enough for me to see there is no point in a further discussion



Sure.
Let's agree to disagree, because simply put i don't see where you've seen "*those vastly better feats"*, i'm sorry Denjiro and Jinbei's feats are totally comparable to Killer's in my book.
We've both explained our take, nothing more to add. I guess it goes both ways, from my perspective you're the one biased, unfair  in this debate.


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## Beast (Aug 9, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Because Killer almost killed Kaido?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, not sure what you’re talking about.

Making jokes isn’t going to change anything.

Rooftop> Sanji, it might be a pain to realise but that’s what happens, beating Queen isn’t going to change that.

bring up future feats and your wishful thinking doesn’t stop Killer beating Sanji like a bad dog.

well, I’m glad you accepted that P1 walked it off, same as Kaidou... except there is a few tiers between them. You’re very much like a Zorotard except for Sanji... which is the strangest site.

Killers very feats contain knocking out Zoro while physically and mentally nerfed, taking hits and sending them right back on the rooftop alongside the others without a problem is above anything Sanji has done so far and fighting Hawkins while already tired and after taking BMs last hit... Killer is facing Hawkins, who mind you has a fruit specialised for taking hits for free isn’t going to take away from killers performance so far or going forward.

not that I care to reply again after this but it’s been quite clear Sanji is not rooftop level and no anointing of bringing up other people’s feats Jinbe/ Marco/ Luffy is going save or change anything for Sanji in this battle.

you better pray that Sanji beats both Queen and king to put him on level or above the Rooftop5.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Beast said:


> you better pray that Sanji beats both Queen and king to put him on level or above the Rooftop5.



I've fucked around enough on this subject, i'm out , not that serious,  and not entertaining me anymore.
I will leave it at that, you've lost your damn mind if you think that Killer could solo, Queen and King by himself.


Hawkins is not fully healed either.

  Seen this ridiculous expectation a few times , you guys are the real Sanji fans.....
Except a top tier who the fuck could defeat a YC2 , then a YC1?


This kind of crazy takes should make you realize that your rankings are off....


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## Beast (Aug 9, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I've fucked around enough on this subject, i'm out , not that serious,  and not entertaining me anymore.
> I leave at that, you've lost your mind if you think that Killer could solo, Queen and King by himself.
> Seen this ridiculous expectations a few times , you're the real Sanji fans.....
> OP is not that complicated,  impressed by how some can fail to grasp such simple facts.
> ...




Give Marco his credit man... a lot of assumptions being made from what’s been done off panel (like Oda isn’t one of the most inconsistent artists with little details like that dirt, blood etc) but what he does on panel is downplayed so easily.

Anyway, anime is catching up... you better watch the rooftop episode to jog your memory.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Beast said:


> Give Marco his credit man... a lot of assumptions being made from what’s been done off panel (like Oda isn’t one of the most inconsistent artists with little details like that dirt, blood etc) but what he does on panel is downplayed so easily.
> 
> Anyway, anime is catching up... you better watch the rooftop episode to jog your memory.



Come on now......
You speak about Oda's inconsistencies from time to time, yet use a single panel as the end all be all, as your whole argument.
I guess Caesar clown alone shitted on Luffy, Franky and co on Punk Hazard since he captured them .

Marco was amazing,  and everything indicates that he is above King and Queen individually,  but anyone with a shred of honesty knows perfectly well that this panel is not representative of the dynamic between those three characters.
You have some nerves talking about memory loss  when everyone and his mom is aware of the fact that the phoenix himself was telling Chopper to hurry up since it was not sustainable.
That's the kind of argument we have come to.



Genuinely thought you were trolling, it's more severe than i feared.
Yeah i'm out.
Peace.


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## Beast (Aug 9, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Come on now......
> Marco was amazing,  and everything indicates that he is above King and Queen individually,  but anyone with a shred of honesty knows perfectly well that this panel is not representative of the dynamic between those three characters.
> You have some nerves talking about memory when everyone and his mom is aware of the fact the the phoenix himself was telling Chopper to hurry up since it was not sustainable.
> That's the kind of argument we have come to.
> ...


Well, it would be one thing if he was there just to beat them but he is also protecting Chopper (let him have a free hit on Queen as he grabbed like BM did him but worse) and at the same time using his powers on both enemy and foe to slow down the spread of Queens disease.

He probably can’t beat them straight on but he can definitely push them to the edge, at this point I truly believe King is closer to Queen then he is to Marco.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Beast said:


> Well, it would be one thing if he was there just to beat them but he is also protecting Chopper (let him have a free hit on Queen as he grabbed like BM did him but worse) and at the same time using his powers on both enemy and foe to slow down the spread of Queens disease.
> 
> He probably can’t beat them straight on but he can definitely push them to the edge, at this point I truly believe King is closer to Queen then he is to Marco.



I agree that King is closer to Queen than he is to Marco.
However it was perfectly obvious that Marco had no shot at beating both of them.
King is not that far off of Marco.
This battle has been going on for a while, Queen was fucking around with Chopper for half an hour (yeah i don't know what the fuck you were talking about regarding Chopper's safety, once the antidote fabricated , Chopper was on the front line as Queen toyed with him, Marco was "free" of his movements), if Marco was as superior as you claim he would have put King down at this point...... had 30 minutes to do so.
Similarly Big Mom chocking Marco doesn't mean shit when she bounces and tells us she can't beat him quickly.

Too many readers blow out of proportions the difference in terms of strength between these characters.


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## Beast (Aug 9, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I agree that King is closer to Queen than he is to Marco.
> However it was perfectly obvious that Marco had no shot at beating both of them.
> King is not that far off from Marco.
> This battle has been going on for a moment, Queen was fucking around with Chopper for half an hour, if Marco was as superior as you claim he xould have put King down at this point......
> ...


So... Queen fights chopper for 30 minutes is what you want me to believe and again, beating King/ Queen or anyone isn’t what Marco is here to do... I thought that was quite clear when he threw Zoro onto the rooftop?
Clearly... It would have been better for him to go to the rooftop and help against BM/ Kaidou? Distract Bm at least considering that was what he was hinting at when he ran into her but again... simple answer is Oda. Lol

Shit people will stand still if he needs them to till comes back around to drawing them... Kidd has been fighting BM for how long now?
People will still tell you Luffy could stomp him, again whatever happens offpanel or is happening offpanel is not up for discussion and brings nothing to light.

anyway, this is more Sanji vs killer.

and Killers feats on Wano> Sanjis and I’m out.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Beast said:


> So... Queen fights chopper for 30 minutes is what you want me to believe and again, beating King/ Queen or anyone isn’t what Marco is here to do... I thought that was quite clear when he threw Zoro onto the rooftop?
> Clearly... It would have been better for him to go to the rooftop and help against BM/ Kaidou? Distract Bm at least considering that was what he was hinting at when he ran into her but again... simple answer is Oda. Lol
> 
> Shit people will stand still if he needs them to till comes back around to drawing them... Kidd has been fighting BM for how long now?
> ...



Queen did not fight Chopper for 30 minutes, he played with him aka plot.
Them feats you know...... tricky.

Someone had to stall the commanders,  slow down the virus, Marco was the strongest and the most suited to take on this mission.
Aka King and Queen are strong. Like the CP0 told us.
Without Marco stalling them, this war would already be decided.
For thematic reasons too, the new generation, the new wave of pirates taking down the Old rulers.
Everyone and his mom knows that the rooftop5 were not all stronger than Marco.
Feats at the service of plot, not the other way around

Your off panel take is fallacious.
You know how i know Ao Kiji and Aka inu are as close as it gets to an equality..... A 10 days long off panel fight.

Brook had better "feats" than Sanji on Whole Cake. Did not mean shit.
Raizo has better "feats" than Who'who...... guess he's stronger.
Once again plot > feats but you know it since you perfectly evaluated Chooper's "feats" against Queen.
Sanji>Killer>Hawkins.
The sooner you guys accept it, the less ridiculous your explanations will be. Killer injured?
Because Hawkins is at full health and Kidd is severly injured facing Big Mom?
Gtfo.
#Letitgo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Aug 9, 2021)

If Queen gets ADHD against Killer and starts taking his attention off the battlefield like he loves to do then he'd be in for a bad time. Killer with a good opening stabbed clean through Zoro while nerfed and not using his best weapons, I doubt Queen would want him to score a free-head shot with Beheading Claws or Scyther Sonic.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 9, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> If Queen gets ADHD against Killer and starts taking his attention off the battlefield like he loves to do then he'd be in for a bad time. Killer with a good opening stabbed clean through Zoro while nerfed and not using his best weapons, I doubt Queen would want him to score a free-head shot with Beheading Claws or Scyther Sonic.


That applies to pretty much any swordsman on Sanjis level.

Face it, if two people are on the same level, a guy with swords will always be more lethal than a guy who's fighting style is based on kicking. It's common sense.

Doesn't mean Killer is automatically stronger.


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## Beast (Aug 9, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> That applies to pretty much any swordsman on Sanjis level.
> 
> Face it, if two people are on the same level, a guy with swords will always be more lethal than a guy who's fighting style is based on kicking. It's common sense.
> 
> Doesn't mean Killer is automatically stronger.


It’s anime sense... real life the force would be what is important.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> If Queen gets ADHD against Killer and starts taking his attention off the battlefield like he loves to do then he'd be in for a bad time. Killer with a good opening stabbed clean through Zoro while nerfed and not using his best weapons, I doubt Queen would want him to score a free-head shot with Beheading Claws or Scyther Sonic.



Doesn't sound like it , since i'm arguing on behalf of Sanji's character but i rate Killer.
Hence why i always said Sanji high diff.....
Killer AP>Sanji AP at the minute.

However i'm seeing a huge Queen's downplay and i'm calling BS.
When we were saying that several characters who sure as hell ain't FM level have displayed impressive feats against Top Tiers, feats comparable to Killer's ,it was factual.
*Ulti got back up after being hit (sneack attack) by Big Mom Maser cannon.
ulti got back up.....impressive defensive feat for the ancient Zoan.*

You know who else is an ancient Zoan?
And a cyborg on top of that?
Exactly.
Queen is a tank.

Those events are linked like i said , we've seen top tiers attack other high tiers numerous times, at least some stay consistent and claim that Ulti is the strongest Tobbi ropo since she got them feats contrary to Sasaki, Who'sWho and for the more  audacious/optimistic XDrake.
But that's the type of dead ends one meets based on them feats, ignoring plot and storyline.
Are we gonna claim that Ulti is more durable than Queen too? Or that Killer packs more AP than Mommy?

For argument purpose, i talked about Ulti,  since casual Queen himself showcased great durability against casual Big Mom.

Putting down Queen is no easy task.....even for Killer. "Beheading claws" ain't gonna cut it i'll tell you that.....


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 9, 2021)

Beast said:


> It’s anime sense... real life the force would be what is important.


Nah bro.

If Luffy was to land a free hit on Kaido and if Zoro was to, who would do more damage?

Luffy would never be able to scar Kaido with his fists like a swordsman can, the most he can do is leave a lasting bruise. Does that mean Luffy is much weaker than Zoro? No.

In one piece swordsmen can be just as overpowered as devil fruit users. 

That's why I respect people like Garp and Sanji.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

With haki and it's advanced forms it is less evident than previously.
Luffy can inject haki inside his opponents body and make him implode, advanced CoA and CoC are brutal skills.
Even tough i agree with the general idea, AP is a swordman strength in anime/manga


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 9, 2021)

_Killer was on the roof as Kidd's First Mate, but as wee've seen the difference between Luffy and Kidd is not insignificant, which means that Killer doesn't have to be as strong as Luffy's  Right Hand Man ( which he did not really show himself to be ) , nor necesarily stronger than the future Pirate King's Left Hand Man.

It seems that Zoro and Sanji are the one's who will get to defeat Kaido's top two men, with King and Queen getting paired and compared with eachother a number of times in Wano, both by Zoro when he judged them both as formidable opponents defending the two paths towards the roof, as well as Marco who valued them in the same breath as "over 1 bilion beri bounty" opponents that he has a lot of difficulty against.

This gives in story value to how their bounty reflects on their strength, making King and Queen more formidable that those with less than 1 bil bounty in the New World ( with exceptions such as frozen bounties or the new generation of pirates who can make significant jumps in bounty in the near future ),  and monsters who are not far off from Marco, with Queen's bounty being only 50 mil less than his.

So performing on the roof or potentially having a better toolset to harm Kaido ( which you could argue Kidd was not able to do in spite of obviously being stronger than Killer ), doesn't necessarily put you above either of the future Pirate Kings Wings, especially when said "Wings" get to actually defeat Kaido's top men._

Reactions: Informative 1 | Creative 1


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## Great Potato (Aug 9, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Doesn't sound like it , since i'm arguing on behalf of Sanji's character but i rate Killer.
> Hence why i always said Sanji high diff.....
> Killer AP>Sanji AP.
> 
> ...



Killer has been eating homie attacks like they're part of his balanced nutritious breakfast. Don't know if I can call Ulti getting blown through, knocked out, and having her insides destroyed is comparable. That she got back up reads more as an endurance and recovery feat than durability. It's like pre-skip Supernova surviving Kizaru and Pacifista lasers, they didn't resist them at all, they just had the endurance to keep going after getting pierced through.

Anyways, Queen is a beast and I don't think Killer would have an easy time with him, but I do think it's a winnable match-up. Especially as Queen's rather glaring weakness of constantly taking his attention off his opponent would come back to bite him much more in that fight. It's not really an argument against Sanji but on those writing off Killer because he got paired with someone perceived to be a weaker opponent. It's flawed logic, especially in an arc where Inu is fighting Jack while Neko is on his way to fight Perospero, we know the Dukes are equals, yet one has the clearly stronger opponent to deal with.


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## Mylesime (Aug 9, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Killer has been eating homie attacks like they're part of his balanced nutritious breakfast. Don't know if I can call Ulti getting blown through, knocked out, and having her insides destroyed is comparable. That she got back up reads more as an endurance and recovery feat than durability. It's like pre-skip Supernova surviving Kizaru and Pacifista lasers, they didn't resist them at all, they just had the endurance to keep going after getting pierced through.
> 
> Anyways, Queen is a beast and I don't think Killer would have an easy time with him, but I do think it's a winnable match-up. Especially as Queen's rather glaring weakness of constantly taking his attention off his opponent would come back to bite him much more in that fight. It's not really an argument against Sanji but on those writing off Killer because he got paired with someone perceived to be a weaker opponent. It's flawed logic, especially in an arc where Inu is fighting Jack while Neko is on his way to fight Perospero, we know the Dukes are equals, yet one has the clearly stronger opponent to deal with.



Perospero is far less diminished than Jack who had his tusk literally fixed, after the beatdown he took. Without Kaido he was finished.... And he's basically the next best thing in a Yonkou crew after the commanders. The discrepency is not that big.
Jinbei who should be on par with the Dukes got a similar opponent. If Neko mid diff and Inu high/extreme everything adds up.

I agree that a Killer victory is plausible, seemed obvious, if i think that Sanji high diff Killer, knowing that Queen will fall, they're not that far apart. I generally think that people tend to overblow those gaps, these fighters are closer than most want to admit.

Regarding Ulti's feats, let's agree to disagree, Maser cannon is Big Mom strongest elemental attack so far, combined Big Mom three homies in a synch attack that they were unable to perform with Zeus, Killer did not take an attack as powerful.
It was to highlight Queen's durability/endurance anyway:
If Ulti is able to get back up after such an attack with no guard, Queen ain't going out with "beheading claws".
Not willing to argue about an hypothetic Queen vs Killer, but once again Queen is downplayed, he can spam Franky's laser attacks at will, almost wiped out all the soldiers with his virus.
Queen's AP>Killer's. Quite frankly the only areas i'd give a clear edge to Killer are mobility, speed, reflexes .
Somewhat similar to Sanji, with the Raid Suit reducing Queen 's advantage defensively.
I can see Killer winning, respect someone who'd defend such stance, but right now i'd favor the commander. Chances are Sanji's victory will be explained in part by plot.
Queen is strong, a fool, but a strong one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Aug 9, 2021)

lmao people bringing up rooftop for *ma portrayal* again

I can do this aswell:
As of the literally last chapter Sanji along Zoro are the wings of the soon to be PK (already called the 5th Yonko) while Killer is a sidekick of an objectively weaker rival (not even Yonko candidate) of the soon to be PK.

Also holy shit. Hawkins > King/Queen/Jack?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Aug 9, 2021)

Well my opinion hasn't changed since the last iteration of this thread. Sanji high diffs. I suspect that this will become indisputable in the coming chapters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Karma (Aug 9, 2021)

Sanji prolly


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Aug 9, 2021)

If they both defeat their current opponents with about the same diff then its safe to say Sanji>


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 9, 2021)

I see them roughly on equal terms. Extreme-ish diff fight either way. Sanji might overcome Killer soon enough .

Don't forget that Killer had a fight against 2 Yonkos and tanked quite a lot while Hawkins seems to be fully fine.
Or Hawkins might be stronger as we thought who knows?

Reactions: Like 1


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## fenaker (Aug 9, 2021)

Killer body bags


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 9, 2021)

fenaker said:


> Killer body bags


Whether it's the BDA discord server or Fanverse forums you can always trust on fenaker to hate on Sanji

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

Stop talking about feats.

Just stop.

They will both get their fair share in due time. I mean I would even go as far as to say feats are irrelevant in a discussion such as this where we know so much about the roles of these characters in the story.

I would lean Killer because of his rivalry with Zoro. But it's going to be a super contested fight throughout.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Well my opinion hasn't changed since the last iteration of this thread. Sanji high diffs. I suspect that this will become indisputable in the coming chapters.


How in the world is Sanji beating Zoro's rival even possibly "indisputable". What the


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## Karma (Aug 9, 2021)

Weve already seen wut a fight between Killer and Zoro looks like

Killer got mogged


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

Karma said:


> Weve already seen wut a fight between Killer and Zoro looks like
> 
> Killer got mogged


Kamazou did.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 9, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Stop talking about feats.
> 
> Just stop.
> 
> ...


Sanji has more of a rivalry with zoro than killer does.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Sanji has more of a rivalry with zoro than killer does.


Sanji is below Zoro in the pecking order. Killer is not explicitly depicted as such, in the same way Kid is not seen as lesser than Luffy.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 9, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sanji is below Zoro in the pecking order. Killer is not explicitly depicted as such, in the same way Kid is not seen as lesser than Luffy.


Still a rival, vegeta is a rival to goku but is below him in the pecking order. Kid is seen as lesser than luffy, luffy had shown 100% superiority to kidd in the yonkou fight, he's known as the fifth yonkou where as kidd isn't, they have never even fought. Sanji and zoro have shown a rivalry for like 800 chapters, killer, a first mate from a crew not anywhere close to the straw hats in any way, fought zoro once and got put down without asura or enma.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Still a rival, vegeta is a rival to goku but is below him in the pecking order. Kid is seen as lesser than luffy, luffy had shown 100% superiority to kidd in the yonkou fight, he's known as the fifth yonkou where as kidd isn't, they have never even fought. Sanji and zoro have shown a rivalry for like 800 chapters, killer, a first mate from a crew not anywhere close to the straw hats in any way, fought zoro once and got put down without asura or enma.


Yeah but you get what I mean.

Sanji is without question or doubt below Zoro. This is more than a fact about the series despite the routine return to their playful rivalry. On the other hand, Killer and Kid are portrayed as Zoro and Luffy who grew in slightly different circumstances. Kid isn't a Yonko only because he wasn't put in the same positions as Luffy. Killer lost to Zoro when he was Kamazou and without his weapons, but Oda took the time to let the reader know Killer thought if they went at it again in his right mind and with his weapons, it would be a different story.

I'm not saying Killer beats Sanji with room to spare or anything. It will be a ridiculously close fight, I just think Killer would push Zoro a little more than Sanji. It's more a story feeling thing anything, and if Killer is a 1.8 or 1.9 to Zoro's 2, Sanji's a 1.7.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 9, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah but you get what I mean.
> 
> Sanji is without question or doubt below Zoro. This is more than a fact about the series despite the routine return to their playful rivalry. On the other hand, Killer and Kid are portrayed as Zoro and Luffy who grew in slightly different circumstances. Kid isn't a Yonko only because he wasn't put in the same positions as Luffy. Killer lost to Zoro when he was Kamazou and without his weapons, but Oda took the time to let the reader know Killer thought if they went at it again in his right mind and with his weapons, it would be a different story.
> 
> I'm not saying Killer beats Sanji with room to spare or anything. It will be a ridiculously close fight, I just think Killer would push Zoro a little more than Sanji. It's more a story feeling thing anything, and if Killer is a 1.8 or 1.9 to Zoro's 2, Sanji's a 1.7.


I don't get what you mean, Sanji is below zoro, but not by much at all. In fact,  Oda showed us how close they are with kaku and jyabura, he actually quantified it with their opponents. Killer and kidd are the unsuccessful Luffy and zoro, killer is in no way close to zoro and kidd is even further away from luffy. Kidd isn't a yonkou because he doesn't have the strength or the crew. Luffy has future sight/advanced CoA, advanced CoC. Kidd has shown none of these.

You could have Kidd pirates and Law pirates together vs the strawhats and the strawhats would take it just from feats/hype/portrayal.

Zoro vs killer was a nerfed zoro vs a nerfed killer, killer didn't have his proper weapons and zoro didn't have this 3 sword style. Zoro since got a huge powerup which put him even further ahead, as did Sanji.

Sanji with the raidsuit has superior durability, invisibility, speed, mobility. Killer has superior attack power for now. Zoro would have a much harder time with sanji. He doesn't have the CoO to tag him especially if he's invisible, Enma would rip right through killers scythes if they had a clash and decapitate him. Sanji is even a better matchup to zoro than killer fighting style wise because of his CoO and his evasiveness. You're not blocking enma you have to dodge unless you're mihawk/shanks.
Current zoro beats RS sanji extreme diff most likely with asura, and beats killer mid diff without even coming close to using it.

Zoro without enma vs killer would be a good fight, same with base sanji. Their powerups bring them a tier above him.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 9, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> I don't get what you mean, Sanji is below zoro, but not by much at all. In fact,  Oda showed us how close they are with kaku and jyabura, he actually quantified it with their opponents. Killer and kidd are the unsuccessful Luffy and zoro, killer is in no way close to zoro and kidd is even further away from luffy. Kidd isn't a yonkou because he doesn't have the strength or the crew. Luffy has future sight/advanced CoA, advanced CoC. Kidd has shown none of these.
> 
> You could have Kidd pirates and Law pirates together vs the strawhats and the strawhats would take it just from feats/hype/portrayal.
> 
> ...


From a story perspective, it's made clear that Zoro IS AHEAD of Sanji. Jabra and Kaku were close, but Kaku was ahead. There's many other moments where the gap didn't seem that small too.

Never was it made clear that Killer IS BEHIND Zoro. Sure, he doesn't look as good. Kid doesn't look as good or shine as much as Luffy. That's because they're the main characters. We still look at scenes like the Kid vs Luffy in the prison and Zoro and Killer's back and forths across the span of Wano as Oda hinting at a legitmate rivalry between Captain's and First Mate's.

The gap, if there is one, is left much more ambiguous with Zoro and Killer than it is with Zoro and Sanji. I don't care who has what feats or powerups, at the end of the day everyone will recieve some powerup or feat to reinforce their portrayal. So while my argument is weaker because of a lack of feats for Killer (and Kid I guess), it is still valid as a primarily portrayal based argument.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 9, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> From a story perspective, it's made clear that Zoro IS AHEAD of Sanji. Jabra and Kaku were close, but Kaku was ahead. There's many other moments where the gap didn't seem that small too.
> 
> Never was it made clear that Killer IS BEHIND Zoro. Sure, he doesn't look as good. Kid doesn't look as good or shine as much as Luffy. That's because they're the main characters. We still look at scenes like the Kid vs Luffy in the prison and Zoro and Killer's back and forths across the span of Wano as Oda hinting at a legitmate rivalry between Captain's and First Mate's.
> 
> The gap, if there is one, is left much more ambiguous with Zoro and Killer than it is with Zoro and Sanji. I don't care who has what feats or powerups, at the end of the day everyone will recieve some powerup or feat to reinforce their portrayal. So while my argument is weaker because of a lack of feats for Killer (and Kid I guess), it is still valid as a primarily portrayal based argument.


Its less ambiguous between killer and zoro because zoro beat killer, he didnt beat sanji in a fight. Sanji and zoro have been parallelled the entire story, killer had a few jabs with zoro in 1 arc and thats it. Also you cant discount powerups because were talking about powerscaling people to each other lol.
Also, it is clear killer is behind zoro because he lost to him in a fight and he preformed worse on the rooftop, cant get any more clear than that.
Also if you keep bringing up portrayal, whitebeard pirates were rivals with roger pirates.
Marco is whitebeards first mate, rayleigh was rogers.
Rayleigh, and scopper would have mopped the floor with marco at that point in the story


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## Kroczilla (Aug 9, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Never was it made clear that Killer IS BEHIND Zoro.

Reactions: Funny 8


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## Dunno (Aug 9, 2021)

Idk, idc. All I know is that Zoro beats both of them at the same time.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Aug 9, 2021)

Is it 2021 and I’m still seeing people argue that Zoro and Sanji are rivals and bringing up Kaku and Jyabura?

Killer wins until further notice. Feats, hype and portrayal all favor him


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 10, 2021)

Sanji of course. One of these characters is fighting Queen. The other is fighting Hawkins


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## B Rabbit (Aug 10, 2021)

Zoro and Sanji are not rivals. Outdated notion. When Sanji puts up the feats Zoro did against Kaidou then we will talk.

Sanji's still pretty strong.


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2021)

Both Killer and Sanji are "explicitly" behind Zoro. Sanji's rivalry with Zoro is undeniably more important and highlighted though and the idea that all the SNs are super competitive rivals to Luffy hasn't been relevant in awhile.

It's hard to say until we see both their fights but I'd lean Sanji


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 10, 2021)

Killer has better feats rn but I think it’ll be pretty obvious that Sanji is stronger soon.


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2021)

I actually think Sanji has better feats than Killer now, since Kaido and Big Mom's attack power seems to chiefly come from their advanced haki and raw strength. Taking their casual elemental blasts is not a big deal and Killer mostly hurt Kaido through wacky hax, not power.

Best feat Big Mom's elemental attacks has is temp-KO'ing Ulti with her strongest combo attack yet. From what we have seen a full divebomb from King would knock any Tobiroppo the fuck out.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Its less ambiguous between killer and zoro because zoro beat killer, he didnt beat sanji in a fight. Sanji and zoro have been parallelled the entire story, killer had a few jabs with zoro in 1 arc and thats it. Also you cant discount powerups because were talking about powerscaling people to each other lol.
> Also, it is clear killer is behind zoro because he lost to him in a fight and he preformed worse on the rooftop, cant get any more clear than that.


Luffy is the Captain, Zoro is the First Mate, Sanji is the next up. I would even argue Luffy vs Zoro is left more ambiguous than Zoro vs Sanji.



If Zoro defeating Kamazou was meant to portray Zoro above Killer then Killer would've had his weapons.

Zoro performed better on the rooftop because he's one of the main characters. It was never a statement that Zoro was definitely above Killer. Killer performed admirably for being a secondary character. I missed the part where Sanji was on the rooftop.

That's because Zoro, Killer, Kid, Law and Luffy are in a higher tax bracket than Sanji. Simple as.


DarkRasengan said:


> Also if you keep bringing up portrayal, whitebeard pirates were rivals with roger pirates.
> 
> Marco is whitebeards first mate, rayleigh was rogers.
> Rayleigh, and scopper would have mopped the floor with marco at that point in the story


Terrible example.

Marco's relationship with Rayleigh was nothing like Killer and Zoro's. They (Marco and Rayleigh) never even interacted.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

Tenma said:


> Both Killer and Sanji are "explicitly" behind Zoro. Sanji's rivalry with Zoro is undeniably more important and highlighted though and


When was Killer "explicitly" behind Zoro?

Sanji and Zoro's rivalry has never been important because we never had any doubt who was stronger.


Tenma said:


> the idea that all the SNs are super competitive rivals to Luffy hasn't been relevant in awhile.




I'm almost certain Kid will come out of this arc with a feat rivalling Luffy's.


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> When was Killer "explicitly" behind Zoro?
> 
> Sanji and Zoro's rivalry has never been important because we never had any doubt who was stronger.
> 
> ...



It's obvious that Luffy and his crew are indisputably superior to the Novas and their crews who are at most second best. They can be 30% of Luffy or 99% but either way Luffy is the top dog without question.

Kidd and Luffy having some dick measuring doesn't mean much, Sanji and Zoro have that all the time. There is no doubt Luffy is stronger than Kidd and Zoro is stronger than Killer.

Okay, maybe one or two people somehow emerged with the idea that Law or Kid=Luffy, but the same goes for Sanji and Zoro....basically everyone else knows Luffy is ahead whether it's by 1% or 100%...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

Tenma said:


> It's obvious that Luffy and his crew are indisputably superior to the Novas and their crews who are at most second best. They can be 30% of Luffy or 99% but either way Luffy is the top dog without question.
> 
> Kidd and Luffy having some dick measuring doesn't mean much, Sanji and Zoro have that all the time. There is no doubt Luffy is stronger than Kidd and Zoro is stronger than Killer.
> 
> Okay, maybe one or two people somehow emerged with the idea that Law or Kid=Luffy, but the same goes for Sanji and Zoro....basically everyone else knows Luffy is ahead whether it's by 1% or 100%...


Whatever, I'm just repeating myself.

Killer is the next best thing after Zoro. Just like Zoro and Kid are the next best thing after Luffy.

Sanji shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt over Killer when we know for certain he is a good step down from Luffy, Zoro and Kid.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whatever, I'm just repeating myself.
> 
> Killer is the next best thing after Zoro. Just like Zoro and Kid are the next best thing after Luffy.
> 
> Sanji shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt over Killer when we know for certain he is a step down from Luffy, Zoro and Kid.


 'next best' is still below. how big you think that step is doesn't matter.

Sanji is the next best thing after Zoro too.


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2021)

Luffy must be one deformed-ass bird for his wings to be apparently so different in size and ability

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Aug 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Nah bro.
> 
> If Luffy was to land a free hit on Kaido and if Zoro was to, who would do more damage?
> 
> ...


Last I checked... luffy, Zoro and Kaidou are all anime characters.


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 10, 2021)

Beast said:


> Last I checked... luffy, Zoro and Kaidou are all anime characters.


so are Sanji and Killer.....
The same logic applies to them, they are even within the same series


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whatever, I'm just repeating myself.
> 
> Killer is the next best thing after Zoro. Just like Zoro and Kid are the next best thing after Luffy.
> 
> Sanji shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt over Killer when we know for certain he is a good step down from Luffy, Zoro and Kid.


Killer is not the next best thing after zoro, just like kidd is not the next best thing after luffy, no where has it been stated or shown this. Sanji is the next best thing after zoro, hes consistently through 800+ chapters of the manga shown side by side compared with zoro, hes luffys left hand man when zoro is his right. They are both called the pirate kings wings. Killer is a first mate of a pirate crew thats nowhere near the strawhats, just like bepo, and just like vergo, just like daz bones.

How is sanji a good step down from zoro an
d kidd? Hes been portrayed as the next best to zoro the entire manga, kidds feats arent anywhere close to luffys so kidd isnt even in the same ballpark.

If anything its Luffy>>>zoro>sanji, with kidd being somewhere around zoro and sanji but his feats arent there.

Youre right you are just repeating yourself but it doesnt make sense at all, killer didnt have his weapons but zoro was missing a sword, and zoro was fighting killer while also watching his back from the fox samurai. They were both nerfed, and then zoro got a ginormous powerup where as killer did not.

Sanji will be fighting queen, and zoro will be fighting king, just like the entire manga they are fighting 2 people extremely close in strength that parallels them. Killer will fight hawkins who is below the flying 6 who are below jack who is below queen, its literally not even a contest

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

Tenma said:


> 'next best' is still below. how big you think that step is doesn't matter.
> 
> Sanji is the next best thing after Zoro too.


Of course it matters.

I don't think Killer is that far ahead of Sanji. He's just slightly closer to Zoro than Sanji because of the reasons I've explained.


DarkRasengan said:


> Killer is not the next best thing after zoro, just like kidd is not the next best thing after luffy, no where has it been stated or shown this. Sanji is the next best thing after zoro, hes consistently through 800+ chapters of the manga shown side by side compared with zoro, hes luffys left hand man when zoro is his right. They are both called the pirate kings wings. Killer is a first mate of a pirate crew thats nowhere near the strawhats, just like bepo, and just like vergo, just like daz bones.
> 
> How is sanji a good step down from zoro an
> d kidd? Hes been portrayed as the next best to zoro the entire manga, kidds feats arent anywhere close to luffys so kidd isnt even in the same ballpark.
> ...


You're just spewing nonsense at this point.

Agree to disagree.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Of course it matters.
> 
> I don't think Killer is that far ahead of Sanji. He's just slightly closer to Zoro than Sanji because of the reasons I've explained.
> 
> ...


Im not the one spewing nonsense, I'm basing my case with 800+ chapters of content, you are basing yours on a conclusion you came up with in your head on like 10 chapters of content which very few people seem to agree with. I agree to disagree though.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

Sanji fans will never give up the Zoro rivalry thing will they.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sanji fans will never give up the Zoro rivalry thing will they.


Why would we give it up, its in the manga literally every time they are in panels together, they literally have the most panels in the manga indicating they have a rivalry by a hugeeee margin.
If we use naruto for example, naruto and sasuke are rivals even if they are on the same team, like sanji and zoro.
Rock lee is the naruto of his team, just like killer is the zoro of his crew.
Rock lee is not closer to naruto in power than sasuke.


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## LordVinsmoke (Aug 10, 2021)

Base Sanji Mid Diffed Zoan Queen Killer is Fighting Hawkins Killer Most Likely Extreme Diffs Base Sanji while RS Sanji high diffs


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Why would we give it up, its in the manga literally every time they are in panels together, they literally have the most panels in the manga indicating they have a rivalry by a hugeeee margin.
> If we use naruto for example, naruto and sasuke are rivals even if they are on the same team, like sanji and zoro.
> Rock lee is the naruto of his team, just like killer is the zoro of his crew.
> Rock lee is not closer to naruto in power than sasuke.


Zoro and Luffy are more serious rivals than Sanji and Zoro.

They actually fought to a draw on Whiskey Peak and Zoro is way more about strength than Sanji in general.

Sanji and Zoro's "rivalry" is a joke here and there because they both respect each other's strength. It's nothing more than that.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro and Luffy are more serious rivals than Sanji and Zoro.
> 
> They actually fought to a draw on Whiskey Peak and Zoro is way more about strength than Sanji in general.
> 
> Sanji and Zoro's "rivalry" is a joke here and there because they both respect each other's strength. It's nothing more than that.


There is 1 or 2 instances when zoro and luffy act like rivals, the whole manga is sanji and zoro acting like rivals. Their rivalry isnt a joke here, its the most established rivalry in the manga. You're not really supporting any of your arguments or refuting mine you're just repeat yourself with a whole lot of nothing. Zoro and sanji have an established rivalry over 800 chapters that gets brought up again and again in most of the panels they are in together. It is by far the most established rivalry in the manga and they respect each others strength because they are close in strength based on the fights they've had and their portrayal in each arc. You will see when zoro fights king whos comparable to queen, while killer fights hawkins.
Its going to just be like mr 1 and mr 2, just like kaku and jyabura, just like the kraken, just like the pacifista, just like drake and denjiro.
Also the whole zoro being more about strength is dumb, whitebeards whole dream was to have a family, nothing to do with strength at all, and he was the strongest man in the world

Reactions: Agree 4


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Also look at Zoros wiki page and search the word "Rival" the only 2 that come up are sanji and kuina. Sanji comes up about 7 times and kuinas once. Luffy doesn't come up, killer doesnt come up.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> There is 1 or 2 instances when zoro and luffy act like rivals, the whole manga is sanji and zoro acting like rivals. Their rivalry isnt a joke here, its the most established rivalry in the manga. You're not really supporting any of your arguments or refuting mine you're just repeat yourself with a whole lot of nothing. Zoro and sanji have an established rivalry over 800 chapters that gets brought up again and again in most of the panels they are in together. It is by far the most established rivalry in the manga and they respect each others strength because they are close in strength based on the fights they've had and their portrayal in each arc. You will see when zoro fights king whos comparable to queen, while killer fights hawkins.
> Its going to just be like mr 1 and mr 2, just like kaku and jyabura, just like the kraken, just like the pacifista, just like drake and denjiro.
> Also the whole zoro being more about strength is dumb, whitebeards whole dream was to have a family, nothing to do with strength at all, and he was the strongest man in the world


Alright it's become a Sanji vs Zoro debate and my interest is gone.

There was a good thread about Luffy vs Zoro vs Sanji but it was on another forum and that forum is deceased so I can't find it.


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## Gokou08 (Aug 10, 2021)

People are forgetting that Sanji is fighting Queen in base without any type of problems whatsoever, he also kicked him so hard that he even sent Perospero along. 
Let's wait for the RS, if Sanji really asked for improvements in the Suit to Usopp and Franky a lot can change.

I'd say if Sanji continues to hold and fight Queen like this without RS it would be this:

RS Sanji (YC1+) >Killer (YC2)~Base Sanji (YC2) 

Fighting against a YC2 while not on using Full power is better than fighting freaking Hawkins who even got a hard time against Pre-Emna Zoro. 

Plus if Killer had fought Zoro in a completely 1v1 he would get Mid diffed even if he was at full power.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Alright it's become a Sanji vs Zoro debate and my interest is gone.
> 
> There was a good thread about Luffy vs Zoro vs Sanji but it was on another forum and that forum is deceased so I can't find it.


It's not sanji vs zoro, zoro is stronger but its very close.


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## Kroczilla (Aug 10, 2021)

Like I said earlier, my position on this match up remains unchanged hence why I haven't felt any need not have the will to engage in any debate on this topic. That said...



Shunsuiju said:


> Alright it's become a Sanji vs Zoro debate and my interest is gone.


Bruh, this were your first posts on here



Shunsuiju said:


> I would lean Killer because of his rivalry with Zoro. But it's going to be a super contested fight throughout





Shunsuiju said:


> How in the world is Sanji beating Zoro's rival even possibly "indisputable". What the


Your first posts were all about "Zoro and his rivals" as far as I can tell. Not sure why you are now complaining about it becoming a "Zoro/Sanji" debate. It was fairly obvious where this was going soon after.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> It's not sanji vs zoro, zoro is stronger but its very close.


I meant if Zoro is closer to Sanji or to Luffy.

Again, these characters are all very close to each other. Killer vs Sanji would be like two Admirals going at it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Like I said earlier, my position on this match up remains unchanged hence why I haven't felt any need not have the will to engage in any debate on this topic. That said...
> 
> 
> Bruh, this were your first posts on here
> ...


I'm not complaining, I'm simply not interested in getting into a full on Zoro vs Sanji debate.


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## DarkRasengan (Aug 10, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I meant if Zoro is closer to Sanji or to Luffy.
> 
> Again, these characters are all very close to each other. Killer vs Sanji would be like two Admirals going at it.


No it wouldn't. In base maybe.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## fenaker (Aug 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Whether it's the BDA discord server or Fanverse forums you can always trust on fenaker to hate on Sanji


Fenaker is known for that


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## Conxc (Aug 10, 2021)

There are not rivals in the SH crew. Lmfao! Luffy and Zoro aren’t rivals, Zoro and Sanji are not rivals. I wish all fanbases involved would just drop that bs.

It’s insane to me how feats/hype and portrayal all favor Killer here, you’ll ignore that fact but hang your hat on your fictitious rivalry. Make that make sense.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Mylesime (Aug 10, 2021)

Tenma said:


> Luffy must be one deformed-ass bird for his wings to be apparently so different in size and ability


This.


Hype and portrayal favors Killer?
Who was Shiki's right hand ?
Exactly.  We damn sure know who Gaban was.


You do realize that Oda through Robin reminded us that Sanji was with Zoro, the most important commander of the future Pirate King?
And some wonder how readers make the connection when Oda has been pushing this shit down our throats for 20 years?
Few Sanji fans are dumb enough to think that he's stronger than Zoro, at the same time only haters still denies that Sanji is not some scrub in comparison.


You were talking about rivalry?
Being Kidd right hand has less value in OP than being luffy n° 3.
Let's be real , Kidd is at best on par with Zoro, who has the edge up to this point.
Neither Kidd  nor Law are Luffy's equal.
Killer is not  Zoro's equal either.
Sanji being stronger than Killer is perfectly reasonable. Finding it asinine is what is disturbing.
It's fine giving the nod to killer, but acting like the opposite stance is crazy is just laughable.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 10, 2021)

> Poo pooing parallel's to then bring up Shiki's right hand that was in a movie and comparing him to Killer 

Killer was on the rooftop. We all remember that right? Shiki's right hand wasn't anything like Kid's, despite the attempt at a forced parallel.


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## Sieves (Aug 10, 2021)

People are really going to argue that because a character is a straw hat or a “wing of the pirate king” they automatically have to be greater than someone who is on a comparable level. At this point you’re literally just arguing main character privileges.

Killer is in the ball park of Zoro just like Law and Kid are in the ball park of Luffy. Killer should at least be King level and should slot in between Zoro and Sanji. This is reasonable based on what has been shown so far.

edit: Ok but those spoilers though. Note the “so far.” We shall see

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Terraforce (Aug 10, 2021)

I have no clue how people say Killer has better feats. His best feat were fighting (and losing to) a distracted and injured Zoro, and his attack on Kaido. The former is debatable, and the latter we didn't see any direct repercussions because of his attack. Sanji clashed with King and took virtually no damage, and is now fighting Queen (while injured) in base with seemingly little trouble thus far.

Sanji pulls out the RS and bodies Killer.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mylesime (Aug 11, 2021)

Sieves said:


> People are really going to argue that because a character is a straw hat or a “wing of the pirate king” they automatically have to be greater than someone who is on a comparable level. At this point you’re literally just arguing main character privileges.
> 
> Killer is in the ball park of Zoro just like Law and Kid are in the ball park of Luffy. Killer should at least be King level and should slot in between Zoro and Sanji. This is reasonable based on what has been shown so far.
> 
> edit: Ok but those spoilers though. Note the “so far.” We shall see



I mean folks are doing the reverse because a character was standing on a Rooftop.....
You see, it's easy to be disingenuous.
Keep downplaying the implication behind being one of the two characters at the flank of the pirate king, and the whole M3 thematic....
Killer has no better hype than Sanji.
The further we advance in the story the clearer it will be.



Shunsuiju said:


> > Poo pooing parallel's to then bring up Shiki's right hand that was in a movie and comparing him to Killer
> 
> Killer was on the rooftop. We all remember that right? Shiki's right hand wasn't anything like Kid's, despite the attempt at a forced parallel.



I did not do such thing, didn't even remember the character to be honest.
Whoever the fuck he was, very few right hand were above Gaban. That's what i was getting at.
What i'm saying about Killer, i would not say about shiryu.
Teach is the only rival Luffy's got among the Worst Generation.
But no point debating without honesty.
Put all the crewmembers of Teach, put them against Luffy's nakamas.
Do the same thing with Kidd's crew.
Exactly.
That is a rivalry, not what is currently happening against the Kidd pirates.

You guys brought up hype without even seriously looking at it. Sanji is seen as Luffy's n°2 by the ennemy forces currently.
Black Maria was dissing him, and Robin basically told her to shut the fuck up since she doesn't need to understand and that Sanji will deliver justifying said hype.
Portrayal wise, sure being part of the rooftop squad is nice, having a 1 vs 1 against Queen while the other is paired against hawkins is also telling.

But sure, Killer's hype is way superior.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 11, 2021)

Somehow in all of this fighting Hawkins is a bad thing.

As if he is not also one of Luffy's rivals (I say that lightly, not wanting to offend anyone) who fought Zoro, Luffy and Law all in this arc.


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## Mylesime (Aug 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Somehow in all of this fighting Hawkins is a bad thing.
> 
> As if he is not also one of Luffy's rivals who fought Zoro, Luffy and Law all in this arc.



How many rivals do you think Luffy's still got?



Please, Luffy is the leader of the allied pirates, and they are all coming to terms with it. Told them all to get downstairs and that he would deal with Kaido solo..... they followed his instructions.
There is no equality there, Luffy is the Daddy.
*Yamato was waiting for only one of them..... spoiler alert it wasn't Basil.*

Fighting hawkins is not a bad thing, nobody said that, Fighting Queen is just better...
Hence why you're seeing this damage control:
-Killer is injured (as if Hawkins wasn't covered in bandages himself, or as if Kidd had not sustained similar damages...... so they're basically telling us that a seriously diminished/compromised  Kidd was fighting a Yonkou)
-Hawkins was the n°2 of the Beast pirates all along (i'm barely exagerating sadly)



Edit:
I just saw the spoilers

Reactions: Like 1


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## VileNotice (Aug 11, 2021)

Sieves said:


> People are really going to argue that because a character is a straw hat or a “wing of the pirate king” they automatically have to be greater than someone who is on a comparable level. At this point you’re literally just arguing main character privileges.
> 
> Killer is in the ball park of Zoro just like Law and Kid are in the ball park of Luffy. Killer should at least be King level and should slot in between Zoro and Sanji. This is reasonable based on what has been shown so far.
> 
> edit: Ok but those spoilers though. Note the “so far.” We shall see


Except the rooftop (and Dressrosa honestly) showed Zoro in the ballpark of Law and Kid while Luffy is on his own level. Therefore it makes a lot of sense for Sanji to be comparable to Killer.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Empathy (Aug 11, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Killer.
> 
> unless Sanji beat Queen in base and goes on to KO King with RS.



What did Killer even accomplish on the rooftop exactly? I would similarly say that Killer is gonna have to beat Hawkins, a YC4, with a lot of room to spare if he’s going to top Sanji beating a YC2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Aug 11, 2021)

rip to all the people claiming Sanji and Zoro aren't close in power and totally aren't rivals after 1022

guess they know the manga better than Oda himself

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Bumped:

We're at the climax of the Raid on Onigashima.
Right in the middle of the last battles.
Killer vs Hawkins and Queen VS Sanji, aren't concluded yet.
But we've finally seen Sanji flex during a fight and power up too.
Many more surprises are still possible, a clear and definitve opinion regarding this question can't be given.
Yet in the light of the new developments anyone changed his/her/their mind?


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Bumped:
> 
> We're at the climax of the Raid on Onigashima.
> Right in the middle of the last battles.
> ...


Nope. Killer should be very close to Zoro IMO.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Nope. Killer should be very close to Zoro IMO.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

I mean he is Kidd’s FM. I don’t really like that logic but if Kidd is to be any rival of Luffy’s Killer should at least be somewhere in the ballpark of Zoro. It’s not like the rest of his crew is any good. Also Killer has solid rooftop feats and is destroying Lawkins. The only reason that fight isn’t over is because Lawkins is a wuss. That being said, I don’t see why Killer couldn’t take Queen down.


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean he is Kidd’s FM. I don’t really like that logic but if Kidd is to be any rival of Luffy’s Killer should at least be somewhere in the ballpark of Zoro.


Nowadays Hype and Portrayal are the be all end all.
Why don't you keep the same energy as before?

Anyway based on hype and portraya: Sanji>Killer.
Luffy's left hand, masterpiece of the Germa 66.



Conxc said:


> It’s not like the rest of his crew is any good


You realize that based on your own arguments that you're using in favor of Killer:
Heats and Wire should be superior to Jinbei and Franky





Conxc said:


> The only reason that fight isn’t over is because Lawkins is a wuss. That being said, I don’t see why Killer couldn’t take Queen down.


Based on current feats Hawkins can't do much to Sanji.
There are levels to this shit.

Hence why:


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## Ludi (Oct 12, 2021)

How is killer actually gonna damage Sanji? His weapons might break


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Nowadays Hype and Portrayal are the be all and all.
> 
> Anyway based on hype and portraya: Sanji>Killer.
> Luffy's left hand, masterpiece of the Germa 66.


Nope. Killer was on the rooftop. Sanji wasn’t. He ranked Yonkou attacks and dealt damage to Yonkou. Maybe in Sanji land you’re correct. Actually, maybe not e


Mylesime said:


> You realize that based on your own arguments that you're using in favor of Killer:
> Heats and Wire should be superior to Jinbei and Franky


And that very well could be possible. Unlike Bepo and Hachi, we don’t know for sure that Heat and Wire are fodder.


Mylesime said:


> Based on current feats Hawkins can(t do much to Sanji.
> There are levels to this shit.
> 
> Hence why:


Lawkins is terrible. That’s my point. Saying Killer is facing him and Sanji is fighting Queen is silly because Lawkins is absolutely no match for Killer. When he fought Zoro as Kamazou I recall Sanji fans saying Killer one shot Zoro. If that’s the case shouldn’t Killer be >>> Sanji? 

@Ludi They didn’t break against Kaido’s scales, which requires an entirely different application of CoA, or advanced CoA to penetrate so I don’t see why they’d break. Let’s wait a couple more chapters before assuming all bladed objects will break against Sanji.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> He ranked Yonkou attacks and dealt damage to Yonko


It's a good thing Sanji is set to dominate an opponent that did those two things

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Nope. Killer was on the rooftop. Sanji wasn’t. He ranked Yonkou attacks and dealt damage to Yonkou. Maybe in Sanji land you’re correct. Actually, maybe not e


#RooftopFeats

So since Momonosuke also bite Kaido and made him scream:
Killer and Momo > Marco/King/ Queen?





Conxc said:


> And that very well could be possible. Unlike Bepo and Hachi, we don’t know for sure that Heat and Wire are fodder.


Heat  or Wire > Jinbei because Kidd is supposed to be Luffy's rival?





Conxc said:


> Lawkins is terrible. That’s my point. Saying Killer is facing him and Sanji is fighting Queen is silly because Lawkins is absolutely no match for Killer. When he fought Zoro as Kamazou I recall Sanji fans saying Killer one shot Zoro. If that’s the case shouldn’t Killer be >>> Sanji?



Lawkins is so out of Killer's reach that he's been fighting for hours.....
Killer's AP is no joke in their tier, was comparable to Zoro's....... before Enma and the awakening of CoC through ashura.
2 Power ups later not so much, and at the time already Zoro OS him too, winning the fight high diff (taking into account Gyakimaru 's intervention).

At this point:
Zoro>Sanji>>>Killer.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Great Potato (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Bumped:
> 
> We're at the climax of the Raid on Onigashima.
> Right in the middle of the last battles.
> ...



Sanji as of the time this thread was made had yet to activate his Awakening, so I'm more confident that Killer takes this match against that version of him which we should be using. Post-Awakening Sanji would be a different fight and one I can see potentially swinging it in his favor depending on how the remainder of this fight plays out, if he keeps up this performance then I can see some strong arguments for him coming out on top.


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Sanji as of the time this thread was made had yet to activate his Awakening, so I'm more confident that Killer takes this match against that version of him which we should be using. Post-Awakening Sanji would be a different fight and one I can see potentially swinging it in his favor depending on how the remainder of this fight plays out, if he keeps up this performance then I can see some strong arguments for him coming out on top.



Sanji did not use his Raid Suit against Queen and was able to stall him for dozens of minutes.
I'm not even sure Killer is stronger than Raid Suit Sanji.
Queen himself was asking him to go all out:



Obviously i was talking about how they currently compare to each  other.
Suggesting that Killer could take down Sanji based on their current level, abilities and skillset is simply silly.
With the awakening of his lineage factor and the Raid Suit?
I'm sorry it's so obvious that i would not personally bother even discussing it.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> #RooftopFeats
> 
> So since Momonosuke also bite Kaido and made him scream:
> Killer and Momo > Marco/King/ Queen?


I forgot you were a troll. Mb.


Mylesime said:


> Heat  or Wire > Jinbei because Kidd is supposed to be Luffy's rival?


I said it could be possible. It could also not be the case, as I currently suspect but I would not be surprised since they aren’t confirmed fodder like Bepo and Hachi.


Mylesime said:


> Lawkins is so out of Killer's reach that he's been fighting for hours.....


Yeah, because of Lawkins using Kidd as a shield…if you can’t see the chasm between Killer and Hawkins that wouldn’t be surprising. You’re oblivious to most of the happenings in the manga that isn’t Sanji meat riding.. 


Mylesime said:


> Killer's AP is no joke in their tier, was comparable to Zoro's....... before Enma and the awakening of CoC through ashura.
> 2 Power ups later not so much, and at the time already Zoro OS him too, winning the fight high diff (taking into account Gyakimaru 's intervention).


I love how all of this matters to you now that it suits your argument. I’m sure I could find old posts from you around the Kamazou fight saying Zoro got one shot, end of story etc. funny how that narrative shifts when it suits you.


Mylesime said:


> At this point:
> Zoro>=Killer>Sanji


Fixed for you.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

My overall opinion of this fight hasn't really change. If anything with the recent power up, I can't see any hope for Killer taking this. Durability+Regen+Potentially more powerful kicks = GG no re.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Nope. Killer should be very close to Zoro IMO.


Sanji is very close to Zoro aswell , should be a great match up

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> My overall opinion of this fight hasn't really change. If anything with the recent power up, I can't see any hope for Killer taking this. Durability+Regen+Potentially more powerful kicks = GG no re.



That's without taking into account the AP boost we're about to witness.
Power up that will prove huge enough to make Sanji go from a state where he could not hurt Queen (who tanked attacks from Marco and Big Mom without going all out either) to a state where he will put him down for good.
Killer is supposed to be anywhere near the Ancien Zoan Cyborg that is Queen durability wise?



At this point i don't even know where Killler has the edge.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Sanji is very close to Zoro aswell , should be a great match up


Look, Zoro > Sanji appears to be a spectrum. At the end of the day though. Zoro > Sanji so whatever you gotta tell yourself dude. But yes, Killer vs Sanji would be interesting.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Sanji fans are so desperate for a win that they have to act like this when he finally does something decent. Yikes.


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Look, Zoro > Sanji appears to be a spectrum. At the end of the day though. Zoro > Sanji so whatever you gotta tell yourself dude. But yes, Killer vs Sanji would be interesting.


Killer gets the benefits of doubt to be close to Zoro but not Sanji, why is that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Great Potato (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Sanji did not use his Raid Suit against Queen and was able to stall him for dozens of minutes.
> I'm not even sure Killer is stronger than Raid Suit Sanji.
> Queen himself was asking him to go all out:
> 
> ...



I rank Killer above Queen, and the Plague was arguably about to win that fight if he didn't blast himself twice with his own missiles. I'll have to see more of how the remainder of their fights play out.


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I forgot you were a troll. Mb.








Conxc said:


> I said it could be possible. It could also not be the case, as I currently suspect but I would not be surprised since they aren’t confirmed fodder like Bepo and Hachi.



Wire or Heat > Jinbei?



Dude do you see how far you're ready to take this shit, rather than simply admit that: Sanji too stronk.

And i'm the one trolling.



Conxc said:


> I love how all of this matters to you now that it suits your argument. I’m sure I could find old posts from you around the Kamazou fight saying Zoro got one shot, end of story etc. funny how that narrative shifts when it suits you.



I have eyes, feel free to search, i have never claimed that Killer was stronger than Zoro nor that he beat him.

Again i'm not like you sanji haters, i have grasped the concept of shame.
There are boundaries to what i say.....



Conxc said:


> Yeah, because of Lawkins using Kidd as a shield…if you can’t see the chasm between Killer and Hawkins that wouldn’t be surprising. You’re oblivious to most of the happenings in the manga that isn’t Sanji meat riding..


Hawkins could use Zeff, Nami, Reiju' lives that i still don't see how he could put down Raid wSuit Sanji.
There are levels to this shit, Sanji is far stronger than Hawkins, this trick would not help Hawkins  put down Sanji.
A mere hindrance.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Killer gets the benefits of doubt to be close to Zoro but not Sanji, why is that


Coz Kidd is Luffy's rival apparently


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Nope. Killer should be very close to Zoro IMO.


Killer is as close to Zoro as Kidd is close to Luffy. In other words not at all

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Coz Kidd is Luffy's rival apparently


Good thing that sanji is Zoro's rival

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I rank Killer above Queen


Queen can tank hits from Marco and King, both of whom should be comfortably above Killer. Other than internal damage via sonic scythe, Killer doesn't really have much by the way of offensive abilities.


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I rank Killer above Queen, and the Plague was arguably about to win that fight if he didn't blast himself twice with his own missiles. I'll have to see more of how the remainder of their fights play out.



Yeah Queen would have finally beaten a Base Sanji prior to his genes awakening.
Which lets us know that it would have been even tougher for him facing Raid Suit Sanji, something he was eager to do and kept asking Sanji to use.....

Queen is stronger than Killer, i don't see Killer no selling the punishment Queen took facing Sanji, and Marco, the friendly fire fighting alongside King.
On the other hand i've seen what it took to put down Killer when he fought Zoro.
With his viruses, his laser beam, the move he used last chapter to crush Sanji, his durability, the attack that affected Big MOM.
I have Queen above Killer.


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## Great Potato (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Queen can tank hits from Marco and King, both of whom should be comfortably above Killer. Other than internal damage via sonic scythe, Killer doesn't really have much by the way of offensive abilities.



I'd give Queen has the edge in durability, that's what the Ancient Zoans specialize in after-all, but it doesn't make one stronger overall. Killer has also has taken hits from Indra, Tenjin, and Fulgora and has barely even slowed down at all and lol-diffed Kaido's wind scythes. Being able to produce internal damage is a great mechanism for him because it would bypass Raid Suit and armored skin defenses.  



Mylesime said:


> Queen is stronger than Killer, i don't see Killer no selling the punishment Queen took facing Sanji, and Marco, the friendly fire fighting alongside King.
> On the other hand i've seen what it took to put down Killer when he fought Zoro.
> With his viruses, his laser beam, the move he used last chapter to crush Sanji, his durability, the attack that affected Big MOM.
> I have Queen above Killer.



Kamazou the Manslayer was just a shadow of the true Killer. He was wrapped in bandages, had his will largely broken, and was down his best weapons. He still managed to deliver some nasty wounds to Zoro in that condition though and on the Rooftop his Beheading Claws were portrayed as identical to Purgatory Onigiri, with him still having deadlier attacks up his sleeve like Scyther Sonic.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Killer gets the benefits of doubt to be close to Zoro but not Sanji, why is that


Killer is a FM to one of the strongest pirates of the generation and like Zoro is portrayed next to his partner, as Kidd calls him, as one of the SNs and was on the rooftop with his partner getting solid feats against Yonkou. Sanji is just now getting decent feats against YC level characters…


Mylesime said:


> Wire or Heat > Jinbei?


Funny enough, Jinbe still has better feats and portrayal than Sanji.


Mylesime said:


> Dude do you see how far you're ready to take this shit, rather than simply admit that: Sanji too stronk.
> 
> And i'm the one trolling.


It’s a possibility. Didn’t say that was absolutely the case.


Mylesime said:


> I have eyes, feel free to search, i have never claimed that Killer was stronger than Zoro nor that he beat him.
> 
> Again i'm not like you sanji haters, i have grasped the concept of shame.
> There are boundaries to what i say.....


Lmao there aren’t. Not when you’re trying to big up Sanji.


Mylesime said:


> Hawkins could use Zeff, Nami, Reiju' lives that i still don't see how he could put down Raid Sanji.
> There are levels to this shit, Sanji is far stronger than Hawkins, this trick would not help Hawkins put down Sanji.
> A mere hindrance.


Sanji isn’t killing Hawkins if he could potentially kill any of those people. Stop lying dude.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I'd give Queen has the edge in durability, that's what the Ancient Zoans specialize in after-all, but it doesn't make one stronger overall. Killer has also has taken hits from Indra, Tenjin, and Fulgora and has barely even slowed down at all and lol-diffed Kaido's wind scythes. Being able to produce internal damage is a great mechanism for him because it would bypass Raid Suit and armored skin defenses.


The issue is that Queen has the definite edge in atleast 3 categories (Durability, physical strength, attack power) whereas the same cannot really be said of Killer. Deflecting Kaido's wind blades is a good feat, but imho tanking similar attacks from King without even trying to block is the better feat especially given that King sent Zoro flying with a similar attack. 

Being able to do damage internally was a game changer until sanji got the ability to walk off and heal internal damage in seconds. Hence my opinion that Killer doesn't really have anything else going for him in a fight against Sanji.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Killer is as close to Zoro as Kidd is close to Luffy. In other words not at all



At Ringo the gap was not that big.
But since then Zoro had two massive power ups (i'm not even counting his pseudo geppou and his new fire abilities).
The gap widened massively......



Great Potato said:


> I'd give Queen has the edge in durability, that's what the Ancient Zoans specialize in after-all, but it doesn't make one stronger overall. Killer has also has taken hits from Indra, Tenjin, and Fulgora and has barely even slowed down at all and lol-diffed Kaido's wind scythes. Being able to produce internal damage is a great mechanism for him because it would bypass Raid Suit and armored skin defenses.


Queen no sold all of Sanji's attacks, as well as Marco's shock waves. So he already showed toughness against internal damages.
His AP is also superior to Killer's, affected a Yonko more severly and necessitated the plot to cure two of his viruses.
His cybernetic enhancements also allow him to fight with additional members, which significantly improves his dangerosity at close range.
He also took Kings air slashes without issue. He's way superior to killer on that front.
Similarly Sanji showcased the ability to regenerate from internal damages last chapter with injury as severe as a spine broken.



Great Potato said:


> Kamazou the Manslayer was just a shadow of the true Killer. He was wrapped in bandages, had his will largely broken, and was down his best weapons. He still managed to deliver some nasty wounds to Zoro in that condition though and on the Rooftop his Beheading Claws were portrayed as identical to Purgatory Onigiri, with him still having deadlier attacks up his sleeve like Scyther Sonic.



His durability was not changed significantly tough.
Zoro was nerfed too tough. I agree that Killer was diminished, both were.
This is also the case for Sanji who was quite clearly disturbed by his awakening (noticed by Zoro) which gave several openings to Queen during the fight. He was also not going all out refusing to use his armor.
None of Killer's attacks did significant damages against Kaido.
Who later on tanked Thunder Bagua infused with adv CoC by Yamato.

Killer is strong, i'm not disputing that.
He is just weaker than Queen and Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Killer is a FM to one of the strongest pirates of the generation and like Zoro is portrayed next to his partner, as Kidd calls him, as one of the SNs and was on the rooftop with his partner getting solid feats against Yonkou. Sanji is just now getting decent feats against YC level characters…


Sanji is one of Luffy's wings alongside Zoro. Killer being fm doesn't put much over Sanji. 

Said YC level characters are strong, we've seen them perform well agaisnt top dogs of one piece.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2021)

Nope, base pre queen fight sanji vs killer is a decent fight with sanji edging out a win
Rs pre queen fight sanji takes killer comfortably
Current sanji dominates him


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## Ludi (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Nope. Killer was on the rooftop. Sanji wasn’t.


That might be the worst argument I have ever heard

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Great Potato (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> The issue is that Queen has the definite edge in atleast 3 categories (Durability, physical strength, attack power) whereas the same cannot really be said of Killer. Deflecting Kaido's wind blades is a good feat, but imho tanking similar attacks from King without even trying to block is the better feat especially given that King sent Zoro flying with a similar attack.



I think Killer has a very sizable advantage in speed, agility, and technique though. Queen just seemed to try brute forcing with that sword without any actual skill behind it, it's unthinkable to me that Killer would allow his swords to be broken in such an embarrassing manner, and should they clash I can see Killer disarming he like he did with Napoleon because he truly lives by the blade. The snake coil is powerful, but I don't think Queen wants to try that on a human buzzsaw, that would be like trying to grab a blender blade while it's spinning. Killer has much greater combat intelligence as well, while Queen has a bad tendency to get distracted, play with his food, and self-sabotage that can end up backfiring on him. 

That said Sanji should also be above Queen at this stage, so I don't have a problem with people arguing for Sanji at this point. I'd just like to wait and see how it plays out because Sanji has yet to perform his turnabout, which will answer a lot of questions. Right now he hasn't really been able to put a dent in Queen, but logically that should be changing soon and I'd like to see how before getting too deep. We also don't know the limits of his regeneration yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Van Basten (Oct 12, 2021)

Awakened Sanji is about to debunk my poll choice.


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## VileNotice (Oct 12, 2021)

Yeah based on Sanji needing this powerup to defeat Queen I guess Killer would've high diffed him before Germa awakening. Maaaybe extreme diff with Raid Suit.

New Sanji > Queen > Killer > Old Sanji I would say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Typhon (Oct 12, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> I have no clue how people say Killer has better feats. His best feat were fighting (and losing to) a distracted and injured Zoro, and his attack on Kaido. The former is debatable, and the latter we didn't see any direct repercussions because of his attack.


I was about to say the same thing lol. That roof top air still going strong in these forums. 

Even before this recent chapter, Sanji would still win.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Sanji is one of Luffy's wings alongside Zoro. Killer being fm doesn't put much over Sanji.
> 
> Said YC level characters are strong, we've seen them perform well agaisnt top dogs of one piece.


I’m sorry, so we’re supposed to value the wings statement over an actual position of FM for a pirate like Kidd who has been one of the front runners of the Worst Generation?

Yeah, I know, and Killer has solid feats against guys even stronger than them. So make it make sense how the guy with the better feats against the stronger opponents shouldn’t get the nod over the guy with the lesser feats against the lesser opponent?


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## B Rabbit (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> My overall opinion of this fight hasn't really change. If anything with the recent power up, I can't see any hope for Killer taking this. Durability+Regen+Potentially more powerful kicks = GG no re.


Sanji doesn'T have Regen. He has advance healing factor.

They sound like the same thing. But Regen is the ability to regrow limbs etc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I’m sorry, so we’re supposed to value the wings statement over an actual position of FM for a pirate like Kidd who has been one of the front runners of the Worst Generation?


Unlike the Kidd pirates the strawhats doesn't have a FM position. You're using killers rank  in the kidds pirates to put him over Sanji where as Sanji has the same rank as Zoro in the straw hats with the wings dynamic. 


Conxc said:


> Yeah, I know, and Killer has solid feats against guys even stronger than them. So make it make sense how the guy with the better feats against the stronger opponents shouldn’t get the nod over the guy with the lesser feats against the lesser opponent?


Killer's feat was in a group effort . The scabbards were able to achieve similar feats are they now queen? 

If Queen was in a group fight he would also be able to achieve similar feats

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> *Unlike the Kidd pirates the strawhats doesn't have a FM position.* You're using killers rank  in the kidds pirates to put him over Sanji where as Sanji has the same rank as Zoro in the straw hats with the wings dynamic.


Off the strength of this idk why I’m even bothering responding. Here we go with this nonsense again. But anything for the agenda. 


MrPopo said:


> Killer's feat was in a group effort . The scabbards were able to achieve similar feats are they now queen?
> 
> If Queen was in a group fight he would also be able to achieve similar feats


He didn’t no-sell Indra as a group. His sonic attack hurt Kaido without anyone else attacking at the time. He’s got solid feats. Sanji has little to nothing against even YC level characters. He just now getting feats against that caliber person.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling or not with that first bit. Still in shock.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Oct 12, 2021)

_I put Killer above Apoo but not by much. Apoo got up from Zoro's attack and continued to fight X Drake offpanel, i don't think he's far off Killer.

However he was so scared of Queen that he played his game with his life on the line, and when other Beast pirates complained that Queen shows them no mercy he says that there's nothing they can do about it but play by his rules.

So i think Queen is decisively stronger than Apoo. Maybe Killer is up there as well, but i don't think there's a good enough case to put him above a 1,3 bil + pirate just based on his current feats, especially when just last chapter we've seen the other 1,3 bil + beast pirate overwhelm Zoro in multiple clashes._

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Off the strength of this idk why I’m even bothering responding. Here we go with this nonsense again. But anything for the agenda.


Please show me the panel/vivre card card/statement by Oda where Zorro is given the fm position in the crew. The fact of the matter is Oda has gone with the wings dynamic that is a cannon fact . 


Conxc said:


> He didn’t no-sell Indra as a group. His sonic attack hurt Kaido without anyone else attacking at the time. He’s got solid feats. Sanji has little to nothing against even YC level characters. He just now getting feats against that caliber person.
> 
> I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling or not with that first bit. Still in shock.


I don't know why you're using Sanji fighting a YC level character to downplay him. Zoro got solid feats on the roof and is now struggling against a YC level caliber character. Is Killer now  > Zoro?


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Typhon said:


> I was about to say the same thing lol. That roof top air still going strong in these forums.
> 
> Even before this recent chapter, Sanji would still win.


Raizo > Queen 



Kinemon > Queen

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Please show me the panel/vivre card card/statement by Oda where Zorro is given the fm position in the crew. The fact of the matter is Oda has gone with the wings dynamic that is a cannon fact .


It’s absurd that this is still in question but some people…catch on little slower than others. Urouge commented on it, wouldn’t be surprised if there were more instances. The Wings statement doesn’t imply any kind of equality in a combat sense nor a standing in a crew dynamic. Show me a crew that has “left wing” “right wing” as a crew role and I’ll concede right now. 


MrPopo said:


> I don't know why you're using Sanji fighting a YC level character to downplay him. Zoro got solid feats on the roof and is now struggling against a YC level caliber character. Is Killer now  > Zoro?


And that’s good for him. The point is he has much to prove than what he’s shown. I’m mot gonna penalize Killer for having better feats against stronger opponents. The point is Zoro and Killer have already proven their worth in a fight against Yonkou. Sanji is *still *proving his worth against YC characters and has no standing in conversation above that because he’s unproven.

It’s hilarious how you guys downplay what went on on the rooftop (obviously since Sanji wasn’t there) but the wings statement, which is just a statement is gospel to you and somehow implies full equivalence. There was no elaboration on that so you made your own and you’re running with it. At least being on that rooftop meant something, something that was shown, not left up to the reader’s headcanon. You guys are sick.


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Raizo > Queen
> 
> 
> 
> Kinemon > Queen



Replace Queen by King and they're shook.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> It’s absurd that this is still in question but some people…catch on little slower than others. Urouge commented on it, wouldn’t be surprised if there were more instances.



Yes, other people will refer to Zoro as the first mate, but such a position does not exist within the actual crew. Zoro and Sanji are depicted as having equal standing within the crew.



Conxc said:


> The Wings statement doesn’t imply any kind of equality in a combat sense nor a standing in a crew dynamic.


So what exactly does it imply?


Conxc said:


> Show me a crew that has “left wing” “right wing” as a crew role and I’ll concede right now.


It's almost like different crews have their own dynamic.


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> It’s absurd that this is still in question but some people…catch on little slower than others. Urouge commented on it, wouldn’t be surprised if there were more instances.
> The Wings statement doesn’t imply any kind of equality in a combat sense nor a standing in a crew dynamic. Show me a crew that has “left wing” “right wing” as a crew role and I’ll concede right now.


Don't need to show another crew the strawhats should be enough.

Here is one example of the wings

*Spoiler*: __ 









Here we have Marco calling Zoro and Sanji the stars.

*Spoiler*: __ 









The Wings statement is about crew rank and used to debunk your claim that Killer being Kidds Fm makes him >  Sanji.



Conxc said:


> And that’s good for him. The point is he has much to prove than what he’s shown. I’m mot gonna penalize Killer for having better feats against stronger opponents. The point is Zoro and Killer have already proven their worth in a fight against Yonkou. Sanji is *still *proving his worth against YC characters and has no standing in conversation above that because he’s unproven.


You know Sanji won't get to fight a yonkou in wano.  Killer doesn't get penalized however his feats need to get put into perspective.


Conxc said:


> It’s hilarious how you guys downplay what went on on the rooftop (obviously since Sanji wasn’t there) but the wings statement, which is just a statement is gospel to you and somehow implies full equivalence.


The wings statement is from the mouth of Oda himself so yes it is gospel.


Conxc said:


> There was no elaboration on that so you made your own and you’re running with it. At least being on that rooftop meant something, something that was shown, not left up to the reader’s headcanon. You guys are sick.


We saw the scabbards being able to deal with dragon Kaido in a similar manner that killer achieved.  The strongest scabbards are around Jacks strength who is inferior to Queen.  Queen being able to achieve similar feats to Killer in a group battle against big mom and Kaido is believable.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Don't need to show another crew the strawhats should be enough.
> 
> Here is one example of the wings
> 
> ...


All of this is just consistent with what we already know: Zoro and Sanji are Luffy’s two strongest crew mates. This does not mean that Zoro isn’t the FM. We’ve had character statements and other things to support this. It baffles me that people still question this.



MrPopo said:


> The Wings statement is about crew rank and used to debunk your claim that Killer being Kidds Fm makes him >  Sanji.


A wing is not a crew ranking. It’s a figure of speech that Robin used at the time. That is the single time such wording has ever been used to refer to them since the manga was created. 


MrPopo said:


> You know Sanji won't get to fight a yonkou in wano.  Killer doesn't get penalized however his feats need to get put into perspective.


He could’ve easily been on that rooftop if it were intended. He was omitted for a reason. Killer was included for a reason. 


MrPopo said:


> The wings statement is from the mouth of Oda himself so yes it is gospel.


Except you’re using it in a way that is 100% speculative. A Wing is not a role in a crew. It was a figure of speech used by Robin.


MrPopo said:


> We saw the scabbards being able to deal with dragon Kaido in a similar manner that killer achieved.  The strongest scabbards are around Jacks strength who is inferior to Queen.  Queen being able to achieve similar feats to Killer in a group battle against big mom and Kaido is believable.


Again, Kaido laughed at them then proceeded to take out the trash low-diff if even that. Kaido didn’t laugh off anyone on that rooftop’s damage and constantly praised all of them. There’s a difference, but I’m sure you know that. Sanji fan’s strategy remains to just be as purposefully obtuse as possible until people get tired of arguing with you. Then proceed to pt yourself on the back.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

For real though, this entire argument about Killer being the FM and Sanji being one of Luffy's wings is pointless. We are at a point in the story where one crew can very realistically defeat every other supernova/"Luffy Rivals". There's absolutely no room for comparison between the two crews.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> All of this is just consistent with what we already know: Zoro and Sanji are Luffy’s two strongest crew mates. This does not mean that Zoro isn’t the FM. We’ve had character statements and other things to support this. It baffles me that people still question this.


Who within the crew has called Zoro the first mate?


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Also, from what I’m seeing, the actual translation of SBS 73 in *actual *context: 

*Spoiler*: __ 




*In conclusion, Sanji does in fact refer to Zoro by name, but Zoro does not return the favor!*P.N. Little Marron

O: ...Okay. Thank you very much, Little Marron! So you counted them all... This was very fun to read! Some of these terms made me wonder when they'd said these things. Indeed, I have trouble imagining Zoro calling him "Sanji" by name. Not once, eh? Wow. Well, they might not get along well, but they're both valuable, trustworthy men who have Luffy's back. So let's forgive them their squabbles (laughs).






Like I said, *anything* to push the agenda. Lying isn’t beneath us, I see.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 12, 2021)

Ngl Denjiro might have better feats than Killer

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Ngl Denjiro might have better feats than Killer


Yep. A half dead Denjiro pierced Kaido's side. Healthy Killer got a free shot at his neck and did nothing. Tbh other than Sonic scythe, Killer's AP isn't all that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Also, from what I’m seeing, the actual translation of SBS 73 in *actual *context:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


>Referred to as Wings in the actual Manga 
>Referred to as the stars 

Even if we assume that your translation of the sbs is correct (which tbh is doubtful given your history), that horse has bolted. Zoro and Sanji are Luffy's wings.


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## VileNotice (Oct 12, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Ngl Denjiro might have better feats than Killer


They're probably similar levels.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Oct 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> >Referred to as Wings in the actual Manga
> >Referred to as the stars
> 
> Even if we assume that your translation of the sbs is correct (which tbh is doubtful given your history), that horse has bolted. Zoro and Sanji are Luffy's wings.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> They're probably similar levels.


How so? Denjiro didn’t do much more than the other Samurai who Kaido mocked as a group. Kaido constantly praised the R5 collectively and in some cases individually but he didn’t laugh off anything they threw at him.

@Sir Curlyhat Not only are these two comparisons from vastly different times, the word “wings” was never used, again, as far as I could see, and the context for both statements are very different. The Twitter posts in question use speculative wording also. Do you have the actual viz translation for the SBS?


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## VileNotice (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> How so? Denjiro didn’t do much more than the other Samurai who Kaido mocked as a group. Kaido constantly praised the R5 collectively and in some cases individually but he didn’t laugh off anything they threw at him.


Denjiro is the strongest of the scabbards not counting Sulong, and Killer was the weakest of the rooftop. Also he was holding Zoro back pretty effortlessly back in Act 2. 

Tbh I think the scabbards did as much if not more to Kaido than Kidd, Law, and Killer's combined damage, especially with the portrayal of their Paradise Tetsuka.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> How so? Denjiro didn’t do much more than the other Samurai who Kaido mocked as a group. Kaido constantly praised the R5 collectively and in some cases individually but he didn’t laugh off anything they threw at him.


Kaido didn't laugh off anything the Scabbards threw at him either. He merely concluded that they weren't comparable to Oden. Also it was glaringly clear that Luffy and Zoro with the aid of Law carried the R5 for the most parts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Denjiro is the strongest of the scabbards not counting Sulong, and Killer was the weakest of the rooftop. Also he was holding Zoro back pretty effortlessly back in Act 2.
> 
> Tbh I think the scabbards did as much if not more to Kaido than Kidd, Law, and Killer's combined damage, especially with the portrayal of their Paradise Tetsuka.


Agreed. Paradise Tetsuka was the only attack other than G4 AdCOA Gatling to actually make dragon Kaido down momentarily. The Scabbards deserve a lot more respect that they get for their performance against Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> Denjiro is the strongest of the scabbards not counting Sulong, and Killer was the weakest of the rooftop. Also he was holding Zoro back pretty effortlessly back in Act 2.
> 
> Tbh I think the scabbards did as much if not more to Kaido than Kidd, Law, and Killer's combined damage, especially with the portrayal of their Paradise Tetsuka.


I see what you’re saying, but Kaido laughed off everything including that Paradise Tetsuka. Idk I feel like he would’ve said something if R5 damage was lacking. He praised them though.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Kaido saved Jack's ass and told him that he wasn't weak, the dukes were just strong.
Obviously he would conclude that they do not compare to Oden.
Oden was likely comparable to what Luffy is currently.
There are just levels to that shit.
Losing is just met with downplaying and underestimation in OP (cf Ace, Marco, etc.....)


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Kaido saved Jack's ass and told him that he wasn't weak, the dukes were just strong.
> Obviously he would conclude that they do not compare to Oden.
> Oden was likely comparable to what Luffy is curren.
> There are just level to that shit.
> Losing is just met with downplaying and underestimation .....


Yeah, for Jack.

It’d be one thing if they just lose. Kaido literally…laughed at them. I didn’t say they were weak. They were just not even an appetizer for Kaido. That don’t make them weak.


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> All of this is just consistent with what we already know: Zoro and Sanji are Luffy’s two strongest crew mates. This does not mean that Zoro isn’t the FM. We’ve had character statements and other things to support this. It baffles me that people still question this.


In-universe belief isn't absolute. We've had no-one in the straw-hat crew as FM. 


Conxc said:


> A wing is not a crew ranking. It’s a figure of speech that Robin used at the time. That is the single time such wording has ever been used to refer to them since the manga was created.


Sandam explained it's two crucial people, Luffy's right and left hand man.


Conxc said:


> He could’ve easily been on that rooftop if it were intended. He was omitted for a reason. Killer was included for a reason.


Big mom is on the roof, Sanji's no kick women rule wouldn't work on the rooftop.


Conxc said:


> Except you’re using it in a way that is 100% speculative. A Wing is not a role in a crew. It was a figure of speech used by Robin.
> 
> Again, Kaido laughed at them then proceeded to take out the trash low-diff if even that. Kaido didn’t laugh off anyone on that rooftop’s damage and constantly praised all of them. There’s a difference, but I’m sure you know that. Sanji fan’s strategy remains to just be as purposefully obtuse as possible until people get tired of arguing with you. Then proceed to pt yourself on the back.


The crux of the argument is that Queen who is stronger the scabbards  should be able to achieve similar feats to killer. Kaido also called Jack and the Sulong dukes strong.  Kaido would hold Queen in high regard as well.

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __


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## VileNotice (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I see what you’re saying, but Kaido laughed off everything including that Paradise Tetsuka. Idk I feel like he would’ve said something if R5 damage was lacking. He praised them though.


I think Kaido was genuinely scared for a moment that the scabbards might be able to replicate Oden's power. The Totsuka proved that they couldn't and so he trash talked the attack in relation to Oden's, but it was still much stronger chip damage than basically all the Rooftop 5 attacks besides Kong Gatling and Ashura. And he did praise their determination right before turning back to base form to finish the fight.


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Also, from what I’m seeing, the actual translation of SBS 73 in *actual *context:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Sandam is an reliable source and has corrected Stephen paul(The current translator for one piece ) before such as the whole kaido when you smile business.


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> In-universe belief isn't absolute. We've had no-one in the straw-hat crew as FM.


Yet, again, Robin’s vague Wing’s statement is? It’s all about what lines up to the agenda, per usual.


MrPopo said:


> Sandam explained it's two crucial people, Luffy's right and left hand man.


And when Sandman posts translations I noticed he often says “*my *translation of…” and he, in this particular post, used speculative diction meaning his translations are not absolute. Not to mention the first question form 73 has absolutely nothing to do with strength or crew standing. It literally has to do with why Zoro has never called Sanji by his name. Somehow someway people found a way to tie that into Robin’s statement and the rest is headcanon history. Fact is in what appears to be the official viz, “Wings” was *never *used in the 73 SBS segment, the two statements being compared are completely out of context and very different and they happened at *very *different time.

TLDR; this statement is baseless speculation.


MrPopo said:


> Big mom is on the roof, Sanji's no kick women rule wouldn't work on the rooftop.


That’s silly because even still, Kaido received the most punishment on the rooftop. Like I said, of
Sanji was meant to be there, he would have been.


MrPopo said:


> The crux of the argument is that Queen who is stronger the scabbards  should be able to achieve similar feats to killer. Kaido also called Jack and the Sulong dukes strong.  Kaido would hold Queen in high regard as well.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Queen has not showcased a single thing that would work on Kaido. Kaido’s too large for the move he used to mangle Sanji, his scales are too tough for Queen’s sword, which broke against Sanji’s skin. That isn’t to say that you’re wrong, but he has not shown that *as of yet*.

yes, they were strong for Jack. That doesn’t mitigate the fact that chapters later he laughed at *all *of them for their collective effort.

@VileNotice I think the first Red Roc Luffy used on Kaido with ACoA did more than everything the scabbards threw at him based on his own reaction to the attack. Kaido has Oden PTSD. He was scared for a moment, but like you said, he realized that they are not Oden and praised them for their *heart*, but laughed at their attempt to kill him. He boasted that they couldn’t even *re-open *his old scar. He respected their dedication more than their actual strength against himself. Red Roc completely disorientated him briefly.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Yet, again, Robin’s vague Wing’s statement is? It’s all about what lines up to the agenda, per usual.
> 
> And when Sandman posts translations I noticed he often says “*my *translation of…” and he, in this particular post, used speculative diction meaning his translations are not absolute. Not to mention the first question form 73 has absolutely nothing to do with strength or crew standing. It literally has to do with why Zoro has never called Sanji by his name. Somehow someway people found a way to tie that into Robin’s statement and the rest is headcanon history. Fact is in what appears to be the official viz, “Wings” was *never *used in the 73 SBS segment, the two statements being compared are completely out of context and very different and they happened at *very *different time.
> 
> TLR this statement is baseless speculation.


We have Japanese native speakers referring to the wings statement in SBS 73 . Oda used the exact same words in SBS 73 and in chapter 1020.



Conxc said:


> That’s silly because even still, Kaido received the most punishment on the rooftop. Like I said, of
> Sanji was meant to be there, he would have been.


Oda had to jump through hopes to justify Sanji blocking Big moms attack in WCI.


Conxc said:


> Queen has not showcased a single thing that would work on Kaido. Kaido’s too large for the move he used to mangle Sanji, his scales are too tough for Queen’s sword, which broke against Sanji’s skin. That isn’t to say that you’re wrong, but he has not shown that *as of yet*.


The scabbards were able to harm Kaido. Queen's lazers should be able to hurt Kaido.


Conxc said:


> yes, they were strong for Jack. That doesn’t mitigate the fact that chapters later he laughed at *all *of them for their collective effort.


Kaido called the dukes/jack strong he praised him just liker Killer .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I think Killer has a very sizable advantage in speed, agility, and technique though.


Agreed on agility. Speed and Technique, not so much. Queen isn't a speedster, but he's clearly not a slow poke and I don't think Killer has any exceptional speed feats that imply a real gap in that regards. As for technique, I can't agree to that coz Killer and Queen's fighting style and abilities are as different as night and day.


Great Potato said:


> Queen just seemed to try brute forcing with that sword without any actual skill behind it, it's unthinkable to me that Killer would allow his swords to be broken in such an embarrassing manner,


Again, this I where I think the difference in fighting style comes in. Queen seems to use his sword same way big mom uses Napoleon i.e. basically similar to a war axe hence their massive swings that focus more on raw power rather than precision. It isn't without skill but rather a different kind of skill.  It's not something Killer can do coz he's a more fluid fighter but also he doesn't have the raw power needed to utilize that kind of fighting style. Queen does.


Great Potato said:


> and should they clash I can see Killer disarming he like he did with Napoleon because he truly lives by the blade.


Even if Killer manages that, Queen is a walking weapon.


Great Potato said:


> The snake coil is powerful, but I don't think Queen wants to try that on a human buzzsaw, that would be like trying to grab a blender blade while it's spinning.


Agree that the snake coil move would be a bad idea against Killer. However, Queen has other abilities including his cybernetics, zoan strength and viruses. There's still several options to choose from for Queen.


Great Potato said:


> Killer has much greater combat intelligence as well, while Queen has a bad tendency to get distracted, play with his food, and self-sabotage that can end up backfiring on him.


True, Queen is his own worst enemy, but even against Sanji he did get the job done. His misfortune was that Sanji's modifications kicked in at that moment. Queen is a troll, but there's a reason he's been one of Kaido's top lieutenants for well over a decade.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> We have Japanese native speakers referring to the wings statement in SBS 73 . Oda used the exact same words in SBS 73 and in chapter 1020.


I’m not familiar with Japanese so I have no idea what you just posted says. The situations though, going by the panels seem to be from TB and WCI. So far we have you trying to tie in this statement to TB, DR (when 73 took place), WCI, and Wano. I am genuinely confused at this point. All I can say is I’m going by the viz. sandman still refers to his translations as such and uses speculative wording. 


MrPopo said:


> Oda had to jump through hopes to justify Sanji blocking Big moms attack in WCI.


Luffy and Sanji blocked that attack together.   Luffy has blocked an attack from BM solo that same arc. Sanji has never since handedly pulled off such a feat. He was overpowered by Daifuku’s genie. Wouldn’t make sense that he’s blocking BM.


MrPopo said:


> The scabbards were able to harm Kaido. Queen's lazers should be able to hurt Kaido.
> 
> Kaido called the dukes/jack strong he praised him just liker Killer .


I feel like I’ve responded to this a few times. All of that is mitigated by the fact that he….know what, just read the other times that I responded to the same thing.


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## JayK (Oct 12, 2021)

Is this Conxc guy always on such nonsensical damage control?

Anyway RS Sani mid diffs the sidekicks sidekick. Gotta swallow crack crystals whole to suggest otherwise.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

Sticks and stones. Doesn’t strengthen your argument a slither, so have at it.

and for anyone still struggling on what the concept of a first mate is in one piece: 

Hope you realize that if you only accept that title for guys that were blatantly called first mate in the series then guys like Rayleigh, Marco, King, Katakuri etc are not first mates by your logic.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kroczilla (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Sticks and stones. Doesn’t strengthen your argument a slither, so have at it.
> 
> and for anyone still struggling on what the concept of a first mate is in one piece:
> 
> Hope you realize that if you only accept that title for guys that were blatantly called first mate in the series then guys like Rayleigh, Marco, King, Katakuri etc are not first mates by your logic.


Raleigh was called Roger's partner which is just as good as being called the first mate if not better.

Oda confirmed that all of WB's commanders had equal standing on his ship i.e. Marco was never officially the FM though he undoubtedly had the closest relationship with WB and was the strongest of his peers.

King ... See above. Also nothing indicates that he has authority over every single crew member in Kaido's absence. 

Katakuri .. tbh in terms of their respective actions and relationship with Big mom, Perospero has been far closer to the FM role than Katakuri. 

Anymore questions.


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 12, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> Oda made Killer match up against a weaker person, and Sanji is in the MC's crew, Sanji should be stronger.





Kagutsutchi said:


> So why isn't Hawkins now as strong as Rooftop instead of what you're doing?





Mylesime said:


> Queen is very likely stronger than Hawkins. Heck Jack should be too. This is taking place in a wider world.
> Hawkins is a member of the Beast Pirates, an Headliner.
> And it would be very bold to claim that he's somehow stronger than the character who's been Kaido's n°3 for decades.....
> Is there any chance Hawkins is stronger than Queen when we see how Oda portrays Apoo's interactions with the calamity ?
> ...


Killer vs Hawkins isn't even a real fight.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 12, 2021)

JayK said:


> Is this Conxc guy always on such nonsensical damage control?
> 
> Anyway RS Sani mid diffs the sidekicks sidekick. Gotta swallow crack crystals whole to suggest otherwise.


He will fight to his dying breath to twist the story so that sanji is wayyyyy weaker than zoro and to do that he has to be weaker than people much weaker to zoro. He will not admit when hes wrong and im entirely convinced he doesnt read one piece he just buys the manga and cuts out all the zoro pages and makes his own manga. Probly made a zoro vs goku comic where zoro wins

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> He will fight to his dying breath to twist the story so that sanji is wayyyyy weaker than zoro and to do that he has to be weaker than people much weaker to zoro. He will not admit when hes wrong and im entirely convinced he doesnt read one piece he just buys the manga and cuts out all the zoro pages and makes his own manga. Probly made a zoro vs goku comic where zoro wins


ACTUALLY I made it Zoro vs Goku, Superman and EoS Nardo and Zoro won extreme diff so….that shows I can be impartial.

Seriously though, I’ve been wrong a bunch and proven wrong and I have admitted that. You gotta prove me wrong babes. <3


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## MrPopo (Oct 12, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I’m not familiar with Japanese so I have no idea what you just posted says. The situations though, going by the panels seem to be from TB and WCI. So far we have you trying to tie in this statement to TB, DR (when 73 took place), WCI, and Wano. I am genuinely confused at this point. All I can say is I’m going by the viz. sandman still refers to his translations as such and uses speculative wording.
> 
> Luffy and Sanji blocked that attack together.   Luffy has blocked an attack from BM solo that same arc. Sanji has never since handedly pulled off such a feat. He was overpowered by Daifuku’s genie. Wouldn’t make sense that he’s blocking BM.
> 
> I feel like I’ve responded to this a few times. All of that is mitigated by the fact that he….know what, just read the other times that I responded to the same thing.


We have native Japanese speakers highlighting and showing how Oda used the exact same words in sbs 73 and chapter 1023 .

The tb and wci was panels of Zoro and sanji will each invidually saying Luffy will be king of the pirates. The tweet is about Luffy's wings saying that. 

With regards to translation at timestamp 51:30 Stephen Paul explains his translation choice and wanted to keep the translation short when talking about Robin's statement and talks about Zoro not being included in Robin's speach  .


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## Conxc (Oct 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> We have native Japanese speakers highlighting and showing how Oda used the exact same words in sbs 73 and chapter 1023 .
> 
> The tb and wci was panels of Zoro and sanji will each invidually saying Luffy will be king of the pirates. The tweet is about Luffy's wings saying that.
> 
> With regards to translation at timestamp 51:30 Stephen Paul explains his translation choice and wanted to keep the translation short when talking about Robin's statement and talks about Zoro not being included in Robin's speach  .


Ok. I’m understanding a little more. They are sampling certain formations of the Japanese letters, or characters to show similarities in statements. Got that bit.

But the context still doesn’t add up. Like is said, in reference to SBS 73 I posted the question and the answer that we are talking about. Oda didn’t mention wings in that SBS. That’s where I’m not understanding. Even if it was mentioned in that SBS that question was about what they refer to eachother. What’s the correlation? Is it just the wording?


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## Kamisori (Oct 12, 2021)

Before Sanji's powerup I would have said Killer.   Now im gonna give it to Sanji.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Oct 12, 2021)

If you’re changing your position drastically did you think sanji was going lose to queen? Is sanji gonna mid diff queen?


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## Great Potato (Oct 12, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Ngl Denjiro might have better feats than Killer





vs



Denjiro doesn't belong in this ring

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Useful 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> vs
> 
> 
> 
> Denjiro doesn't belong in this ring


Sanji finally showing his stuff has brains going haywire on here


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 12, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> vs
> 
> 
> 
> Denjiro doesn't belong in this ring


All this does is prove Killer has superior CoO.
Killer feat-wise is not superior to Denjiro and if he is it's minimal at best. His best feat is tanking Fulgora.


Killer could not pierce Kaido's scales and he failed to do so on both attempts

He was actually amazed that Zoro could cut Kaido's scales

He had to bypass Kaido's scales with his sonic attacks demonstrating Denjiro has superior CoA.

While Denjiro is stated to have the best swordsmanship among the 9 scabbards, half of them were shown easily piercing Kaido's scales. Was 1 of the 4 who performed Togen Totsuka which was Kaido's deepest sword wound on the rooftop aside from Ashura, as it actually managed to put Kaido down for a while. And was able to catch base Kaido off guard, land on him, and also pierce his skin.


Could also casually stop a bloodlusted Zoro while avoiding hurting him while Kamazou (albeit a nerfed killer) was defeated in a 2v1 against Zoro.

I actually think Killer is stronger than Denjiro I'm just highlighting how silly it is to assume that Killer is superior to current Sanji by merit of him being on the rooftop. Killer's offensive feats are: using a sonic attack to bypass Kaido's defense and still did no more than tickle him, and fighting with Napoleon. He did almost nothing on the rooftop and definitely not enough to suggest that he would be YC1 or stronger which is what would be required to beat Sanji at this point.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 12, 2021)

Denjiro being worried about the wind slashes was also perfectly understandable.
And he was ultimately right.
The weakest members of the scabbards are far weaker than Killer , who was the weakest member of the R5 (not downplaying his strength, he is just weaker than Kid, Law, Luffy and Zoro).
Raizo, O kiku, Kinemon were all in grave danger.
And case in point,  O kiku was tagged and badly hurt.


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Ok. I’m understanding a little more. They are sampling certain formations of the Japanese letters, or characters to show similarities in statements. Got that bit.
> 
> But the context still doesn’t add up. Like is said, in reference to SBS 73 I posted the question and the answer that we are talking about. Oda didn’t mention wings in that SBS. That’s where I’m not understanding. Even if it was mentioned in that SBS that question was about what they refer to eachother. What’s the correlation? Is it just the wording?


With regards to the SBS 73 Oda added a comment at the end about the wings. Stephen paul translated the metaphor of Zoro and Sanji being Luffy's wings as having Luffy's back. 

However Oda made a callback to this statement in chapter 1020 by using the exact same words that he used in volume 73. Then in chapter 1022 the editors note makes the comment of the wings returning. (this isn't shown in the offical translation as viz doesn't translate editors notes). 

This wings dymanic is something Oda planned out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

OT Sanji extreme diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> With regards to the SBS 73 Oda added a comment at the end about the wings. Stephen paul translated the metaphor of Zoro and Sanji being Luffy's wings as having Luffy's back.
> 
> However Oda made a callback to this statement in chapter 1020 by using the exact same words that he used in volume 73. Then in chapter 1022 the editors note makes the comment of the wings returning. (this isn't shown in the offical translation as viz doesn't translate editors notes).
> 
> This wings dymanic is something Oda planned out.


Mmm, ok. I understand the usage of the same words. The only thing that I genuinely still don’t get is how that correlates to crew dynamic passed the fact that they are Luffy’s #1 and 2. The statement makes sense in that regard, but it’s obvious that Zoro is Vice Captain, First Mate, Luffy’s right hand man, whatever anyone wants to call it. It might not have officially been stated in the manga but come on. Most of the FMs haven’t been explicitly called that. We know what they are to the crew by their strength, when they joined, their leadership at crucial points etc. I think anyone denying that Zoro is that guy for the SHs is being disingenuous and arguing for argument’s sake.


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Mmm, ok. I understand the usage of the same words. The only thing that I genuinely still don’t get is how that correlates to crew dynamic passed the fact that they are Luffy’s #1 and 2. The statement makes sense in that regard, but it’s obvious that Zoro is Vice Captain, First Mate, Luffy’s right hand man, whatever anyone wants to call it. It might not have officially been stated in the manga but come on. Most of the FMs haven’t been explicitly called that. We know what they are to the crew by their strength, when they joined, their leadership at crucial points etc. I think anyone denying that Zoro is that guy for the SHs is being disingenuous and arguing for argument’s sake.


I agree that Zoro is Luffy's #2 however the Wings dynamic puts Sanji on the same rank as Zoro.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> I agree that Zoro is Luffy's #2 however the Wings dynamic puts Sanji on the same rank as Zoro.


You’re entitled to your own opinion.


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## Ren. (Oct 13, 2021)

Sanji.


Conxc said:


> You’re entitled to your own opinion.


And you are entitle to the title of tier specialist.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

@MrPopo Real quick, do you acknowledge Marco as WBs FM? If so, then why?


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> @MrPopo Real quick, do you acknowledge Marco as WBs FM? If so, then why?


No that was Oden

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> No that was Oden


Mmm but Oden was never stated to be FM, and I mean for the many years after Oden returned to Wano.


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## Ren. (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> No that was Oden


Oden was more like Ray to Roger a partner/brother to WB.



Conxc said:


> Mmm but Oden was never stated to be FM, and I mean for the many years after Oden returned to Wano.


Yes he stated that Oden was his brother ... Marco and the rest are his kids for WB.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Great Potato (Oct 13, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> All this does is prove Killer has superior CoO.
> Killer feat-wise is not superior to Denjiro and if he is it's minimal at best. His best feat is tanking Fulgora.



Killer lol-diffing an attack that had Denjiro shit scared is pretty strong evidence that he's playing in a different ballpark. Tanking Fulgora is also way better than anything we've seen from Denjiro, he has no durability feats at all, and was already soiling himself over a far weaker attack. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> Killer could not pierce Kaido's scales and he failed to do so on both attempts



Kiku could pierce him and still lost her limb to the attack Killer swats aside like nothing, so that doesn't really tell us much. The fact that his Beheading Claws were portrayed on par with Purgatory Onigiri there is still very good hype for him. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> While Denjiro is stated to have the best swordsmanship among the 9 scabbards, half of them were shown easily piercing Kaido's scales. Was 1 of the 4 who performed Togen Totsuka which was Kaido's deepest sword wound on the rooftop aside from Ashura, as it actually managed to put Kaido down for a while. And was able to catch base Kaido off guard, land on him, and also pierce his skin.



Denjiro scores a sneak attack against Kaido and he doesn't even flinch or react to the attack. Killer scores a sneak attack against Kaido and he is screaming in agony spitting out blood, causes Big Mom to finally step in, and Kaido to claim they are more vexing than he imagined. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> I actually think Killer is stronger than Denjiro I'm just highlighting how silly it is to assume that Killer is superior to current Sanji by merit of him being on the rooftop.



There are better ways to argue that point then to try pretending Denjiro is on Killer's level.



Mylesime said:


> Denjiro being worried about the wind slashes was also perfectly understandable.
> And he was ultimately right.
> The weakest members of the scabbards are far weaker than Killer , who was the weakest member of the R5 (not downplaying his strength, he is just weaker than Kid, Law, Luffy and Zoro).
> Raizo, O kiku, Kinemon were all in grave danger.
> And case in point,  O kiku was tagged and badly hurt.



That's some pure headcanon that he's only scared because he's worried about the weaker members and not because the attack is a threat to him as well. Denjiro respects all of his scabbards as peers and not people he has to babysit, and It's made quite apparent by his reaction that he couldn't even perceive these slashes himself until he saw the rocks get cut.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Mmm but Oden was never stated to be FM, and I mean for the many years after Oden returned to Wano.


Whitebeard saw Oden as a brother and not a son. The fact that Oden's position was left vacant so long and the only person who took his role was Ace. Who Whitebeard was grooming to take over the Whitbeard pirates says alot about Oden.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Whitebeard saw Oden as a brother and not a son. The fact that Oden's position was left vacant so long and the only person who took his role was Ace. Who Whitebeard was grooming to take over the Whitbeard pirates says alot about Oden.


I understand that, but that doesn’t answer the question. “Brother” isn’t “First Mate.” And again, The WBP had *many *more years of piracy after Oden’s departure. A division commander vacancy is just that, but who do you think was considered the FM of the crew for those years?

Better yet, if the WBP aren’t a good example for you, take your pick from any of the Yonkou crews. The only Yonkou crew that has a guy that was explicitly named the FM is the RHP. Do you acknowledge King or Katakuri as FMs? I left Teach out because who knows that situation.


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## Mylesime (Oct 13, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> That's some pure headcanon that he's only scared because he's worried about the weaker members and not because the attack is a threat to him as well. Denjiro respects all of his scabbards as peers and not people he has to babysit, and It's made quite apparent by his reaction that he couldn't even perceive these slashes himself until he saw the rocks get cut.



I disagree he turned back and yelled. It was obviously to warn the whole squad, otherwise no need to say it out loud.
Heck Killer did something similar when Kid's Gundam was tagged he was worried about his mate, he was yelling too:




Anyway he dealt with it, even successfully stabbed base Kaido afterwards , after having performed "*Paradise Totsuka"*








Don't get me wrong, Killer is stronger than Denjiro, but based on feats , hype and portrayal the gap is not huge.
Denjiro is  likely the strongest Scabbard (excluding Sulong which is conditional).

Reactions: Like 4


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I understand that, but that doesn’t answer the question. “Brother” isn’t “First Mate.” And again, The WBP had *many *more years of piracy after Oden’s departure. A division commander vacancy is just that, but who do you think was considered the FM of the crew for those years?



I already answered this .

This FM talk is off-topic and was only initially brought up because of your point of killer being kidds fm.


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## Great Potato (Oct 13, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I disagree he turned back and yelled. It was obviously to warn the whole squad, otherwise no need to say it out loud.



Now you're just making things up, Denjiro is never seen turning his back to yell at the squad.



He and his eyes seem pretty clearly pointed forward here.


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> I already answered this .
> 
> This FM talk is off-topic and was only initially brought up because of your point of killer being kidds fm.


You didn’t. You kinda just mentioned Oden again for whatever reason even though I asked about all the years after he left the crew. The WBP continued piracy for decades after Oden left. It was a simple yes or no on if you acknowledged Marco in particular as FM for those years. That wasn’t answered, but it’s ok if you can’t answer it. I understand.

@Great Potato You are completely wasting your time right now, lmao. Fair warning.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> You didn’t. You kinda just mentioned Oden again for whatever reason even though I asked about all the years after he left the crew. The WBP continued piracy for decades after Oden left. It was a simple yes or no on if you acknowledged Marco in particular as FM for those years. That wasn’t answered, but it’s ok if you can’t answer it. I understand.
> 
> @Great Potato You are completely wasting your time right now, lmao. Fair warning.


No


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## Kroczilla (Oct 13, 2021)

Tbh I think a lot of the fandom is overly obsessed with the idea that every crew must have similar structures despite the fact that that has never really been quite the case. Not every crew needs an FM. Not every crew provides for that position. Not every crew is structured to accommodate that position.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 13, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Now you're just making things up, Denjiro is never seen turning his back to yell at the squad.
> 
> 
> 
> He and his eyes seem pretty clearly pointed forward here.




Let's stop here, it's getting personal for no reason and regarding a minor point in the discussion.
I think that he turned back to warn his teamates, weird angle to portray someone looking forward.
Either way even if we assume that he was looking forward like you say, he did yell.
There was no need to say it out loud for himself.
Hope you recognize that at least. The fact that he did not yell for himself?

On top of that Killer was worried similarly by this attack when it touched Kid's gundam, he yelled too:



Killer's feats against Kaido are comparable to Denjiro's imo.
You may disagree, no big deal, we're both entitled to our opinions.
Let's leave it at that.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 13, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Killer lol-diffing an attack that had Denjiro shit scared is pretty strong evidence that he's playing in a different ballpark. Tanking Fulgora is also way better than anything we've seen from Denjiro, he has no durability feats at all, and was already soiling himself over a far weaker attack.


Being "shit scared" of the attack doesn't exactly mean much when it never landed on him and he was fighting as a team with far weaker combatants he had to worry about, 1 of them ended up losing their arm. Tanking Fulgora isn't even a feat we can quantify as we've never seen Hera do anything. BM's strongest attacks are clearly her physical attacks, while Ulti was able to survive a vastly stronger attack which combined her 3 homies. 


Great Potato said:


> Kiku could pierce him and still lost her limb to the attack Killer swats aside like nothing, so that doesn't really tell us much. The fact that his Beheading Claws were portrayed on par with Purgatory Onigiri there is still very good hype for him.


It very clearly tells us Killer is lacking in CoA as he basically admitted that he can't pierce Kaido's scales. Killer's attack was portrayed with a low-end Zoro attack from a Zoro holding back his Enma output as he states himself. I wouldn't consider that "very good hype" unless it was one of Killer's weakest attacks which we don't know. 


Great Potato said:


> Denjiro scores a sneak attack against Kaido and he doesn't even flinch or react to the attack. Killer scores a sneak attack against Kaido and he is screaming in agony spitting out blood, causes Big Mom to finally step in, and Kaido to claim they are more vexing than he imagined.


Killer's attack did absolutely nothing noticeable to Kaido. Kaido doesn't drop or even waver from the attack even though it was perfectly suited for bypassing Kaido's durability. You're comparing base Kaido's reaction to an attack to dragon Kaido's reaction, which has been exaggerated every time Kaido was attacked. Dragon Kaido was white-eyed from elephant gun pre-Udon training which was stated to have no effect on him by Luffy while in base he took gear 4 kong organ without a single reaction. He was left yelping from Kawamatsu in Dragon form. 


Even Momonosuke left him screaming


While a combined attack from Yamato and Luffy left far less of a reaction. Dragon Kaido has clearly always shown exaggerated reactions. 


Killer "causing" Big Mom to step in is flat out wrong, she attacked Luffy in the previous chapter. And Kaido claimed "they" are more vexing than he imagined after taking a series of attacks from Luffy, Law, Kidd and Killer. It wasn't a feat simply attributed to Killer. 

Again which one of these feats would suggest that Killer is stronger than Queen which essentially puts him next to King.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Conxc (Oct 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> No


You are dedicated to that agenda, my friend. I will give you that.


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## Terraforce (Oct 13, 2021)

I'd like a written apology from everyone who said Killer before this most recent chapter.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 14, 2021)

I’ll say Sanji, but there’s a case for Killer to be made here. He took multiple shots from Yonkou and even hurt Kaido. 

A lot of the rooftop fight was off panel but I’ll assume he landed more shots than we saw and also that he took more damage than we saw, which is very impressive.

Reactions: Creative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 14, 2021)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I’ll say Sanji, but there’s a case for Killer to be made here. He took multiple shots from Yonkou and even hurt Kaido.
> 
> A lot of the rooftop fight was off panel but I’ll assume he landed more shots than we saw and also that he took more damage than we saw, which is very impressive.



Let's assume, let's assume.
Those off panel feats of Sanji against Queen and King 2 VS 1.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Oct 14, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> I'd like a written apology from everyone who said Killer *before* this most recent chapter.


What about after


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 14, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Let's assume, let's assume.
> Those off panel feats of Sanji against Queen and King 2 VS 1.


I think that’s a fair assumption, Marco was assisting as well though for all of the off panel stuff.


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 14, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> I'd like a written apology from everyone who said Killer before this most recent chapter.


To be honest having Killer at that point beating Sanji is perfectly fair. Sanji just received a massive power up while killer hasn’t.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Great Potato (Oct 14, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Being "shit scared" of the attack doesn't exactly mean much when it never landed on him and he was fighting as a team with far weaker combatants he had to worry about, 1 of them ended up losing their arm. Tanking Fulgora isn't even a feat we can quantify as we've never seen Hera do anything. BM's strongest attacks are clearly her physical attacks, while Ulti was able to survive a vastly stronger attack which combined her 3 homies.



Denjiro screaming and sweating because he was scared for the weaker members and not for himself is pure head-canon, especially when it's made apparent that he could not perceive the attack. 

I'm not sure what makes you quantify Maser Cannon vastly stronger than Fulgora either. Fulgora was an absolutely massive scale attack that left an aftershock the size of the entire skull and a hole in the side large enough to encompass two floors of the building, and Killer was barely phased by the attack while Ulti was collapsed for a few chapters and put on her last legs. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> Killer's attack did absolutely nothing noticeable to Kaido. Kaido doesn't drop or even waver from the attack even though it was perfectly suited for bypassing Kaido's durability. You're comparing base Kaido's reaction to an attack to dragon Kaido's reaction, which has been exaggerated every time Kaido was attacked. Dragon Kaido was white-eyed from elephant gun pre-Udon training which was stated to have no effect on him by Luffy while in base he took gear 4 kong organ without a single reaction. He was left yelping from Kawamatsu in Dragon form.



How can you claim Kawamatsu left Kaido yelping and then post an image where he is not yelping? The only time Kaido yelled in pain against the Scabbards was when he had his own attack redirected back at him. Killer's attack had him roaring in pain, spitting blood, and commenting on his ability. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> Even Momonosuke left him screaming



Which should be taken as evidence that Momonsuke has a very powerful bite. The guy likely inherited Oden's natural born freak of nature genetics with puberty given he's implied to look identical to Oden right now, and Oda is setting him up to have an Emperor caliber feat with preventing Onigashima from crashing on the capital. His body and strength are the real deal, it's just his mind that is weak.



Ezekjuninor said:


> While a combined attack from Yamato and Luffy left far less of a reaction. Dragon Kaido has clearly always shown exaggerated reactions.



This clearly looks more exaggerated than his reaction against Kawamatsu or Gear 3rd in Act 1 which you cited as examples for Dragon Kaido being more exaggerated. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> Killer "causing" Big Mom to step in is flat out wrong, she attacked Luffy in the previous chapter.



Yeah, and after she attacked him Kaido told her to stay back because he wanted to see what they were made of, and she obliged him until they started putting in work and making him look bad. 



Ezekjuninor said:


> And Kaido claimed "they" are more vexing than he imagined after taking a series of attacks from Luffy, Law, Kidd and Killer. It wasn't a feat simply attributed to Killer.



Kaido had already commented on the attacks that Luffy, Law, and Kid hit him with. There was no reason for him to be referring to those attacks again after he already just acknowledged them, it was clearly a response to what Killer just did to him, and being regarded in the same company as the rest of the RT5 who just dished out heavy hitting attacks of their own is great portrayal.  

The whole post comes off kind of bizarre and rather facetious though since you admitted that you believe Killer is stronger than Denjiro, but are going on some weird tangential rant about how he isn't actually because reasons? It's a weird angle to try tackling Sanji vs Killer from.


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## Ezekjuninor (Oct 15, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Denjiro screaming and sweating because he was scared for the weaker members and not for himself is pure head-canon, especially when it's made apparent that he could not perceive the attack.
> 
> I'm not sure what makes you quantify Maser Cannon vastly stronger than Fulgora either. Fulgora was an absolutely massive scale attack that left an aftershock the size of the entire skull and a hole in the side large enough to encompass two floors of the building, and Killer was barely phased by the attack while Ulti was collapsed for a few chapters and put on her last legs.
> 
> ...


I’m not even bothered to right a serious response to this. A lot of your claims are flat out ridiculous.
How do I know that an attack which combines BM’s 3 strongest homies is vastly stronger than BM testing out Hera’s power, is that a serious question? An injured Ulti was able to survive Maser Cannon while Killer tanking Fulgora is his best feat.

Look at Kaido’s mouth and exclamation marks after Kawamatsu’s attack so yes I would consider that a yelp. How is Kaido gritting his teeth a more exaggerated response than his mouth being wide open. The fact that you can’t even admit something so obvious to the point that you’re trying to claim Momonosuke’s bite did more damage than a combined named Adv CoC attack from Yamato and Gear 4 Luffy. It’s like me claiming that Togen Totsuka did more than Ashura to Kaido but of course common sense would tell me that Dragon Kaido just has exaggerated responses which he’s had throughout the whole arc.

Kaido says THEY are more vexing than he thought after taking a series of attacks. He does not say Killer is more vexing than he thought and he does not say he is more vexing than he thought. Clearly a reference to all of their attacks. It’s the equivalent of me attributing Togen Totsuka as Denjiro’s feat instead of recognising that he was just a part of it.

I said I believe Killer is stronger than Denjiro. He’s Kidd’s strongest comrade and he’s one of the 12 SN. The same way I wouldn’t have to see Kidd defeat a YC3 before I knew he was obviously stronger than Cracker. I said he doesn’t have better feats or noticeably better feats than Denjiro and nothing that would put him above Queen or Sanji because he doesn’t. Your reason for putting Killer above Sanji is essentially “well he was on the rooftop” When he’s done no more than Denjiro did on the rooftop.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Great Potato (Oct 15, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I’m not even bothered to right a serious response to this. A lot of your claims are flat out ridiculous.
> How do I know that an attack which combines BM’s 3 strongest homies is vastly stronger than BM testing out Hera’s power, is that a serious question? An injured Ulti was able to survive Maser Cannon while Killer tanking Fulgora is his best feat.



Yes it's a serious question, you made a claim and didn't provide any evidence. Zoro has attacks with one sword that are more powerful than attacks where he utilizes all three. Is Maser Cannon vastly more powerful than Elbaf Spear as well? Do we claim Fulgora is only on the level of Heavenly Bon-Bons because they both use only one homie?



This is the scale of Fulgora, need it be reminded how massive Onigashima actually is? This is a blast that dwarves the Thousand Sunny several times over. In terms of scale Indra is a small trickle at most and Maser Cannon wouldn't even be visible at this perspective. I don't know why it's absurd to ask for evidence of Maser Cannon being _vastly_ stronger than this.



Ezekjuninor said:


> Look at Kaido’s mouth and exclamation marks after Kawamatsu’s attack so yes I would consider that a yelp. How is Kaido gritting his teeth a more exaggerated response than his mouth being wide open.



His mouth isn't that wide open, we can see what his mouth looks when it's wide open in the Momonosuke panel you posted right below. Really it looks like he just winced at the attack and _"!!!"_ is a very mild response to getting hit by an attack, especially compared to all of the screaming he did when the RT5 was hitting him.



Ezekjuninor said:


> The fact that you can’t even admit something so obvious to the point that you’re trying to claim Momonosuke’s bite did more damage than a combined named Adv CoC attack from Yamato and Gear 4 Luffy. It’s like me claiming that Togen Totsuka did more than Ashura to Kaido but of course common sense would tell me that Dragon Kaido just has exaggerated responses which he’s had throughout the whole arc.



All I said is that Momonosuke's bite is a very powerful attack to cause Kaido to scream like that. Jet Culverin is Luffy's weakest Gear 4th attack anyways, and his white eye grimacing reaction with blood splatter coming out seems plenty exaggerated. Denjiro stab caused zero visible reaction from Kaido other than a single _"!" _which is more the reaction of a Metal Gear soldier noticing Snake is in the area than someone who is in pain.

Not sure why you'd mention Ashura because Kaido was screaming at the top of his lungs and visibly quivering, looking shocked, and hyping up the attack for many panels afterwards... easily one of the most exaggerated responses he's had to any attack so I'm not sure how it helps the case you're trying to make here.



Ezekjuninor said:


> Kaido says THEY are more vexing than he thought after taking a series of attacks. He does not say Killer is more vexing than he thought and he does not say he is more vexing than he thought. Clearly a reference to all of their attacks. It’s the equivalent of me attributing Togen Totsuka as Denjiro’s feat instead of recognising that he was just a part of it.



Kaido had already just finished addressing the chain of attacks that Luffy, Kid, and Law hit him with, after they're finished he says this...

_"So... you've learned how tough my defense is... it seems you're not just mindless fools relying on guts to win!!"_

Then Killer hits him with his attack afterwards and Kaido turns to Killer and says

_"They're more vexing than I imagined!"_

Obviously this response was prompted by Killer's Scyther Sonic and not the Kong Rifle he took moments ago that he already commented on. He didn't get _tickled _by the Scyther Sonic, as you put it, and then randomly decide to comment because he remembered the Gamma Knife and wanted to address it a second time. _They _does put Killer in as part of the collective, which is great hype if he's being categorized alongside the three captains and the attacks he received from them.



Ezekjuninor said:


> I said I believe Killer is stronger than Denjiro. He’s Kidd’s strongest comrade and he’s one of the 12 SN. The same way I wouldn’t have to see Kidd defeat a YC3 before I knew he was obviously stronger than Cracker. I said he doesn’t have better feats or noticeably better feats than Denjiro and nothing that would put him above Queen or Sanji because he doesn’t. Your reason for putting Killer above Sanji is essentially “well he was on the rooftop” When he’s done no more than Denjiro did on the rooftop.



Where have I even mentioned Sanji at all in this conversation? This whole discussion was prompted by you trying to claim Denjiro has better feats than Killer which I vehemently disagree with, and you evidently don't even believe he's stronger yourself. Never did I use Killer merely being on the Rooftop as evidence of his superiority, that wouldn't even make sense in this context as Denjiro was on the Rooftop as well. Don't try putting arguments in my mouth that I never made or supported, I haven't even made the claim that Killer is stronger than current Sanji. My only quarrel is this weird angle of trying to downplay Killer to Denjiro level which you don't even actually support.

Reactions: Like 1


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## mondopatrick657 (Oct 16, 2021)

Sanji high dif

Reactions: Agree 1


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