# SM Naruto Taijutsu Challenge



## Alex Payne (Apr 10, 2015)

​*
Location:* VotE
*Distance:* Naruto is on Hashi statue, contestant on Madara's
*Knowledge:* Full for both
*Conditions:* Pre-Hagoromo gift Naruto. Naruto's strength and durability are on his Base state level. Sage Mode won't run out. Kyubi is completely restricted. Everything except taijutsu is restricted. No weapons/tools. Naruto gets 3 smokebombs for each match. And Pain-battle cape.

Basically SM speed, precog, sensing and Ghost Punches but no crazy strength and advanced durability. 

Contestants:

1) Neji(no restrictions)

2) Tsunade(Katsuyu restricted)

3) Gai(No gates, nunchakus are allowed)

4) Killer B(Base, 7 Swords only, no Raiton)

5) War Arc Kakashi(gets one Kunai, Raiton-flow is allowed, everything else is restricted)

6) Itachi(gets Sasuke's sword, basic sharingan genjutsu is allowed, everything else is restricted, healthy)

7) Fourth Raikage A(Base only, two arms)


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Do Naruto's opponents still have their own crazy strength and/or advanced durability, or does that restriction apply to them as well?


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## Alex Payne (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Do Naruto's opponents still have their own crazy strength and/or advanced durability, or does that restriction apply to them as well?


Only Naruto lacks those things.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 10, 2015)

^
In this case the only one he can potentially beat is neji
but that won't be easy either.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

1) Neji(no restrictions) - He'd beat Neji w/ Ghost Punches fairly easily

2) Tsunade(Katsuyu restricted) - If she gets Sousou Saisei, she can tank his blows until it runs out, but unless she has a considerable amount of chakra in her Byakugo-Seal to enhance her speed, she isn't going to be able to hit SM-Naruto back. In a normal match SM would probably run out before Naruto could bring Tsunade down with Taijutsu, but here since SM is infinite, it becomes a stamina contest, one which Tsunade would loose unless she had a-lot of chakra sealed in her Byakugo, which if that was the case she'd straight up beat SM-Naruto stamina contest or not. So basically it comes down to the amount of chakra Tsunade has in her Byakugo seal, who wins this.

3) Gai(No gates, nunchakus are allowed) - Gai is skilled in CQC, but I really doubt he's getting around Danger-Sensing to land a blow or at least not many blows on Naruto. Meanwhile Naruto's blows are devastating to Gai. SM-Naruto takes this quite handily.

4) Killer B(Base, 7 Swords only, no Raiton) - 7 Swords made it difficult for Sharingan to predict B's movements, i'm not sure how that would work against SM-Sensing. If it has the same effect than B will win, if it does not than Naruto will eventually win after a prolonged struggle.

5) War Arc Kakashi(gets one Kunai, Raiton-flow is allowed, everything else is restricted) - Kakashi is taken down fairly easily by Ghost Punches.

6) Itachi(gets Sasuke's sword, basic sharingan genjutsu is allowed, everything else is restricted, healthy) - Ghost Punches GG.

7) Fourth Raikage A(Base only, two arms) - At Base only Ei isn't hitting Naruto due to Frog Katas and Naruto will eventually land enough blows to down Ei over time. 


Naruto should win them all more often than not except possibly against B and Tsunade.


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 1) Neji(no restrictions) - He'd beat Neji w/ Ghost Punches fairly easily
> 
> 2) Tsunade(Katsuyu restricted) - If she gets Sousou Saisei, she can tank his blows until it runs out, but unless she has a considerable amount of chakra in her Byakugo-Seal to enhance her speed, she isn't going to be able to hit SM-Naruto back. In a normal match SM would probably run out before Naruto could bring Tsunade down with Taijutsu, but here since SM is infinite, it becomes a stamina contest, one which Tsunade would loose unless she had a-lot of chakra sealed in her Byakugo, which if that was the case she'd straight up beat SM-Naruto stamina contest or not. So basically it comes down to the amount of chakra Tsunade has in her Byakugo seal, who wins this.
> 
> ...



*Naruto's strength and durability are on his Base state level.*

You are saying, Gai, whose body is likened to honed-steel in the Databook, is going to be done in by Naruto?

You're telling me a strength feat that even impressed Obito, whose opinion matters based on his experience of other people's strength feats, is not enough?


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## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2015)

With strenght on base level, i seriously see him only defeating Neji. He won't even harm the Raikage. Gai would counter him with Soushuga (unless his ghost punch keeps the same strenght), Tsunade will just take his hit and blow him away, etc.

Every one of this guys, save Neji and probably Itachi/Kakashi, have more physical strenght than Naruto. Doesn't matter if he has sage sensing. If his body is not quick enough to move in a situation, similar to how Obito couldn't continue attacking in mid-air when Gai double attacked and put him in a bad position, he will get scrambled.

Especially with Tsunade, who, just grabbing the kid's arm will blow him to pieces. Nothing prevents Ei and Gai from grabbing him and dominate him into the floor.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Jad said:


> *Naruto's strength and durability are on his Base state level.*
> 
> You are saying, Gai, whose body is likened to honed-steel in the Databook, is going to be done in by Naruto?
> 
> You're telling me a strength feat that even impressed Obito, whose opinion matters based on his experience of other people's strength feats, is not enough?



The problem is he gets Frog Katas. His strength may be base "level", but once he concentrates natural energy near his fist, his striking power rises tremendously. So much so that being hit by the Ghost Punch snapped HG-Realm's neck like nothing. I don't think Gai will go down to one of these, but eventually the damage will pile on and Gai will be defeated.



LostSelf said:


> Every one of this guys, save Neji and probably Itachi/Kakashi, have more physical strenght than Naruto. Doesn't matter if he has sage sensing. If his body is not quick enough to move in a situation, similar to how Obito couldn't continue attacking in mid-air when Gai double attacked and put him in a bad position, he will get scrambled.


SM-Dat clone was able to wait till the last second to evade RNY-Sandaime's charge. His body has more than enough speed with Frog Katas to react to and dodge everyone here, with the possible exception of B due to Acrobato and Tsunade if Byakugo is enhancing her speed enough.


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The problem is he gets Frog Katas. His strength may be base "level", but once he concentrates natural energy near his fist, his striking power rises tremendously. So much so that being hit by the Ghost Punch snapped HG-Realm's neck like nothing. I don't think Gai will go down to one of these, but eventually the damage will pile on and Gai will be defeated.



I don't remember that Pain having any significant feats in terms of durability. You gotta remember, most of these puppets, except for Yahiko and the Puppet, who were proven the difference, are just fodder bodies with O.P. abilities. Probably some Choujiro, Ao, Kurostichi, type able-ninja's.

Gai is NOT a linear fighter as well, he will notice Naruto's movements way better than Sandaime's useless "Let my shield do the guarding no evading" bravado he passed down to his son with one-arm. You have to remember, Gai's reflexes are insane, I mean he was able to in space-bending speed, land a kick on Juubidara at the right time. Whereas he could have shoulder bumped him or ran him over without executing the kick due to speed, had he have normal/average/ or even sub-par great reflexes.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Jad said:


> I don't remember that Pain having any significant feats in terms of durability. You gotta remember, most of these puppets, except for Yahiko and the Puppet, who were proven the difference, are just fodder bodies with O.P. abilities. Probably some Choujiro, Ao, Kurostichi, type able-ninja's.
> .


Doesn't matter if he had above average Jonin durability or not, the fact that his body is rag-dolled and his neck is easily broken by the strike indicates that the blow's striking force is tremendous. It's not easy to break someone's neck, heck we can even see that in Naruto, considering the amount of times one character gets punched in the face and rises back up with minor injuries. 

But I agree that Fatty doesn't have huge durability showings, which is why I think Gai may be able to tank several Ghost Punches before he is too damaged to continue, versus fatty who was one-shotted.



> Gai is NOT a linear fighter as well, he will notice Naruto's movements way better than Sandaime's useless "Let my shield do the guarding no evading" bravado he passed down to his son with one-arm. You have to remember, Gai's reflexes are insane, I mean he was able to in space-bending speed, land a kick on Juubidara at the right time. Whereas he could have shoulder bumped him or ran him over without executing the kick due to speed, had he have normal/average/ or even sub-par great reflexes.


I do not think Gai's reflexes in non-Gated forms are greater than that of RNY-Sandaime Raikage, I truly don't. It's also insanely difficult, exceptional reflexes or not, to evade an invisible strike. He's certainly not evading the first one and even after that I imagine he'd take a few more before he could accurately calculate their reach. By then he's going to be in bad shape though and probably weakened enough that he's not evading hits from Frog Katas [if he ever could in the first place].


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## Ghost (Apr 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> 1) Neji(no restrictions)


Naruto easily.


> 2) Tsunade(Katsuyu restricted)


Tsunade fairly easily.


> 3) Gai(No gates, nunchakus are allowed)


Naruto quite comfortably. Nunchakus might be a bit annoying for him.


> 4) Killer B(Base, 7 Swords only, no Raiton)


Sasuke couldn't even budge Bee with a kick. Naruto without Sage strength isn't winning this.


> 5) War Arc Kakashi(gets one Kunai, Raiton-flow is allowed, everything else is restricted)


Naruto wins.


> 6) Itachi(gets Sasuke's sword, basic sharingan genjutsu is allowed, everything else is restricted, healthy)


Itachi wins since he has access to genjutsu.


> 7) Fourth Raikage A(Base only, two arms)


Raikage wins. As I said earlier, Sasuke couldn't even budge bee with a kick. Naruto isn't doing anything to Ei.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 10, 2015)

Well - SM Naruto downed Pain by swinging his aura-enhanced punch with _Sage Mode level strength_. It is possible that without that level of amplification ghost punches aren't that dangerous. Plus people here have full knowledge.


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Doesn't matter if he had above average Jonin durability or not, the fact that his body is rag-dolled and his neck is easily broken by the strike indicates that the blow's striking force is tremendous. It's not easy to break someone's neck, heck we can even see that in Naruto, considering the amount of times one character gets punched in the face and rises back up with minor injuries.
> 
> But I agree that Fatty doesn't have huge durability showings, which is why I think Gai may be able to tank several Ghost Punches before he is too damaged to continue, versus fatty who was one-shotted.
> 
> ...



I already gave you a good example of Gai's reflexes, and in terms of speed, he didn't even have Obito land a touch on him, whilst KCM Naruto nearly faulted numerous types, even when he had a clone at one point. Gai's Taijutsu prowess, and renowned in Databook - 2 as the best Taijutsu user in Konoha, allows him to avoid punches from Naruto, even if they have a bit of a buffer zone. How big is this bugger Zone? Well it seems to be double his fist thickness. So it's not going to be a task for a Taijutsu *master* to avoid an extra layer of thickness, and even so, being nipped by a partial of the buffer zone while skillfully doding is going to do even less damage to him.

And like you said, one hit is not going to take out a resilient and durable (steel like) person such as Gai. I mean although he was flattened by a FAILED Hirudora blast, you can clearly see the size of the blast that did engulf him at point blank. Yes, he was downed, but only for a few seconds, and because of his resiliency as well, he managed to go 8-Gates for extending periods of time without a hitch. Note even before this, he had to have Lee carry him. And that blast is just so much more powerful than Sage Ghost punches. So mix all that together.

In fact, even when SO-unbelievably damaged (inside-and-out), Gai was able to unleash the  - as stated by the Databook, without a hitch. You think Gai is going down - I mean become hindered - because of Ghost punches, all the while not landing a boulder shattering hit that impressed even Obito on BASE Naruto, who himself should be knocked out or debilated?



Alex Payne said:


> Well - SM Naruto downed Pain by swinging his aura-enhanced punch with _Sage Mode level strength_. It is possible that without that level of amplification ghost punches aren't that dangerous. Plus people here have full knowledge.



Also to add, Deva was also able to somewhat block Naruto's Sage-Mode-enhanced kicks well enough, with no issues (e.g. broken limbs), and he has no strength feats of his own. So a steel-bodied Gai with massive strength feats, should be able to do the same, but even more so successfully.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

I wouldn't say any of the Paths have low durability. After all, Human Path tanked a flying kick from SM Jiraiya and managed to block against SM Jiraiya's hits effortlessly.

 I'd say the Paths are fairly strong and durable.


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Ghost Punches are kinda broken here. Naruto's pretty strong in base actually, and quite durable all things considered. I think Gai and A would give him the most trouble.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Itachi wins since he has access to genjutsu.



That is what the smoke bombs are for. Throw one of those, sense Itachi's location, sneak up behind him, and cave his throat in. Even if Itachi somehow feels Naruto coming, ghost punches prevent dodging.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2015)

I can see Neji and maybe Kakashi.  Pain Arc Naruto's taijutsu was above Kakashi, as seen in how he did vs Deva compared to Kakashi vs Deva.  But War Arc might have made Kakashi a god of taijutsu somehow, and that raiton kunai can probably split Naruto in half as if he were the 15th boulder Kakashi halved on his way to Obito-land.


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## Ghost (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That is what the smoke bombs are for. Throw one of those, sense Itachi's location, sneak up behind him, and cave his throat in. Even if Itachi somehow feels Naruto coming, ghost punches prevent dodging.



What the fuck? Naruto with no clones or a speed advantage sneaking up on Itachi who has full knowledge? 

Also, how the hell do ghost punches prevent Itachi from dodging? If I remember correctly, Naruto's ghost punches' range is not *that* big. Only like few inches. Itachi with Kusanagi should have a bigger range. You don't think someone as smart as Itachi can easily figure out a way around the ghost punches? Especially when he has Sharingan precog and the knowledge he needs. 

And its not like Naruto can knock Itachi with a single hit. Few punches from base Naruto are far from taking Itachi out. Itachi already parried an attack from an unrestricted Sage Mode user using Sasuke's Kusanagi. Itachi with much faster hands will cut down Naruto in a situation like that. 

Has Naruto ever used or even tried to use smoke bombs against the Sharingan? It just doesn't seem very IC to me. And nothing is forcing Itachi to even be nearby a smoke cloud.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> What the fuck? Naruto with no clones or a speed advantage sneaking up on Itachi who has full knowledge?



I guess you missed the smoke bomb part of my post. 



> Also, how the hell do ghost punches prevent Itachi from dodging? If I remember correctly, Naruto's ghost punches' range is not *that* big. Only like few inches. Itachi with Kusanagi should have a bigger range. You don't think someone as smart as Itachi can easily figure out a way around the ghost punches? Especially when he has Sharingan precog and the knowledge he needs.



If the area is clouded, Itachi isn't going to see Naruto approaching. 

If Itachi doesn't see Naruto approaching, then he won't be avoiding any possible attacks until Naruto is already within melee range.



> And its not like Naruto can knock Itachi with a single hit. Few punches from base Naruto are far from taking Itachi out. Itachi already parried an attack from an unrestricted Sage Mode user using Sasuke's Kusanagi. Itachi with much faster hands will cut down Naruto in a situation like that.



Frog Kata's allows Naruto to manipulate the natural energy surrounding his fist. Manipulating it into Itachi's throat with the same force that snapped Fat Pain's neck should do the trick.

If AP is reducing the power of the natural energy strikes along with Naruto's own strength, then Itachi's victory becomes more plausible. Nothing certain though; both will have trouble hitting each other, but Naruto has far more stamina for Taijutsu. Itachi's genjutsu is a wild card, but like...full knowledge and Sage Sensing.



> Has Naruto ever used or even tried to use smoke bombs against the Sharingan? It just doesn't seem very IC to me. And nothing is forcing Itachi to even be nearby a smoke cloud.



Typically, Naruto has better options against the Sharingan than Smoke Bomb -> Taijutsu, but everything else is restricted so that becomes his best option. 

As for getting Itachi in the cloud, the goal would be to throw it at the ground  once they engage in taijutsu, presumably before Itachi attempts to force Naruto into genjutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 10, 2015)

I don't think that the strength of sage aura is an independent thing. It looks like a simple extension of user's body. Maybe a bit tougher. So it is directly tied to Naruto's core strength imo. But I am leaving this up to posters' individual opinions.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Jad said:


> I already gave you a good example of Gai's reflexes, and in terms of speed, he didn't even have Obito land a touch on him, whilst KCM Naruto nearly faulted numerous types, even when he had a clone at one point. Gai's Taijutsu prowess, and renowned in Databook - 2 as the best Taijutsu user in Konoha, allows him to avoid punches from Naruto, even if they have a bit of a buffer zone. How big is this bugger Zone? Well it seems to be double his fist thickness. So it's not going to be a task for a Taijutsu *master* to avoid an extra layer of thickness, and even so, being nipped by a partial of the buffer zone while skillfully doding is going to do even less damage to him.
> 
> And like you said, one hit is not going to take out a resilient and durable (steel like) person such as Gai. I mean although he was flattened by a FAILED Hirudora blast, you can clearly see the size of the blast that did engulf him at point blank. Yes, he was downed, but only for a few seconds, and because of his resiliency as well, he managed to go 8-Gates for extending periods of time without a hitch. Note even before this, he had to have Lee carry him. And that blast is just so much more powerful than Sage Ghost punches. So mix all that together.
> 
> In fact, even when SO-unbelievably damaged (inside-and-out), Gai was able to unleash the  - as stated by the Databook, without a hitch. You think Gai is going down - I mean become hindered - because of Ghost punches, all the while not landing a boulder shattering hit that impressed even Obito on BASE Naruto, who himself should be knocked out or debilated?


You make a fair points about Gai being able to tank the strain of Gates. However I do have a hard time reconciling Gai tanking the strain of Gates, while at the same time Kishi shows Kisame's punch making him cough up blood; outside of it just being plot nonsense that Gai could tank Gates. It's much the same thing for Gai's reflex feats while using Gates, I don't see how to reconcile that with the fact that much slower characters than 8th-Gate's space altering speed have kept up with Gai w/o Gai just aim dodging everything.

 Essentially I'm not sure we should take any of Gai's feats in Gates and apply them to his base, because I think a-lot of the stuff Gai is capable off in Gated form is only suppose to be possible in Gated form; whether that's due to plot or the fact that opening the Gates increases his reflexes and tanking ability IDK.

So I need feats from Base-Gai.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I don't think that the strength of sage aura is an independent thing. It looks like a simple extension of user's body. Maybe a bit tougher. So it is directly tied to Naruto's core strength imo. But I am leaving this up to posters' individual opinions.



My take is that the "Sage Aura" is the natural energy in the surrounding area. It _acts_ as an extension, but it isn't something that is actually connected to Naruto's body in any way.


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

Databook says Gai has fast as lightning reflexes and that was stated next to a base form Gai image of him kicking or stealing Kisame's sword.  The Kisame hitting Gai feat should show how durable start of part 2 Gai is. Kisame's strength alone caused an explosion of water when it clashed with Gai.Plus Gai spat out blood but he never had Iit debiltate him in any way shape or form. Plus that was a while ago, chapter 258. Weved moved on.

Other than that Gai has never been hit on panel, only off panel by Madara of all people. On my phone sirry for crapppy text writing. Plus Gai was only hit by Kisame because after he auccefully blocked him, he had no knowledge kf his opponents strength that he was traped under it.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Jad said:


> Databook says Gai has fast as lightning reflexes and that was stated next to a base form Gai image of him kicking or stealing Kisame's sword.  The Kisame hitting Gai feat should show how durable start of part 2 Gai is..


Problem is SM-Naruto trolled Sandaime-Raikage's reflexes, which literally are as fast as lighting.



> Gai is. Kisame's strength alone caused an explosion of water when it clashed with Gai.Plus Gai spat out blood but he never had Iit debiltate him in any way shape or form. .


Which is again why I don't think one Frog Fu KOs him, but multiple over a long Taijutsu exchanged, I think so.



> Plus that was a while ago, chapter 258. Weved moved onOther than that Gai has never been hit on panel, only off panel by Madara of all people.


If we got no feats or statements that indicate Base-Gai's durability increased since then, we kind of got to go with the Kisame instance then. Or alternatively one could argue we don't know Gai's tanking ability in the latter part of Part II, so we don't know how Gai would perform. Which if you wish to argue such i'm cool with that, but we don't know does not prove the positive, I.E. that Gai wins this.


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

I just showed you Gai taking his broken Hirudora though and a statement of his body being like steel. And Sandaimes attack is less about countering. Doesn't even kt even say he leta his armor do the lrotecting when he uses hell stab. Plus Naruto timed that attack from a distance. Here Naruto is going to have Nunchukus flying all over the place like it is described in the databook.

Plus we don't have any statements that indicates Gai has more reflexes in Gates or mire durability. The only thing that increases reflexes are raiton nerve synapses jutsu....

Also all this talk about Gai's durability. Gai can block too. Like deva did against Naruto. And because of Gai's physique and strength, blocking is going to be reduced consideray,. Come on man, greated skilled Taijutsu user in the series with 5's on all physic stats has to count for sometbing. Were talking about Base Gai durability, maybe we should be talking about Base Naruto's durability to take hits....


HATE TYPING ON MY PHONE. ADS EVERYWHERE!


Aother of Gai's impressive bodily speed and reflexes


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 10, 2015)

He beats Neji, as far as Tsunade that's a toss up considering her most impressive speed feats and the fact she has Byakugou instantly healing every shot she eats. 

I don't think he beats Gai with nunchucks if we consider his feats against Rinnegan Obito, who was showing superiority to KCM Naruto multiple times nearly warping him with ease, and would have succeeded without Kakashi & Gai. Avoiding being warped by an improvised intangible Obito (which is what Gai did) for any amount of time is enough to suggest Naruto's strike extension (which the manga showed only as a couple of inches from his arm) won't be effective against him. Gai's nunchucks provide a further attack extension, swing unpredictably and hit hard enough to put Naruto down in a single hit. He had no idea when Obito was intangible, and he still managed to avoid being touched & targeted by his extension Gunbai.


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## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> T
> SM-Dat clone was able to wait till the last second to evade RNY-Sandaime's charge. His body has more than enough speed with Frog Katas to react to and dodge everyone here, with the possible exception of B due to Acrobato and Tsunade if Byakugo is enhancing her speed enough.



Yes, he was. However, it's like you said, putting B as an example due to hsi acrobacy. Sandaime Raikage was in linear movement. Gai also has similar acrobacy and striking speed enough to strike twice or three times in mid-air, when it has taken people like Minato the need of Hiraishin to accomplish basically the same, wich is preventing Obito from touching them. Coupled that with full knowledge.

But yeah, Frog Katas will be a pain and game changer. I don't see Tsunade losing either. Punching the ground GG can help a lot. But i see it harder, a lot more, for them.


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## Ghost (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If the area is clouded, Itachi isn't going to see Naruto approaching.



Exactly why he would back away immediately when the smoke bomb detonates. He certainly has the speed and reflexes to do that. Itachi should easily be able to deduce what Naruto is trying to pull by using a smoke cloud considering he has full knowledge on him. 

Itachi knows about Sage sensing thus he knows he is at a disadvantage in the smoke. Why would he do anything else but back away immediately?


> If Itachi doesn't see Naruto approaching,
> then he won't be avoiding any possible attacks until Naruto is already within melee range.


How is Naruto out speeding Itachi in this situation? Sharingan predicts Naruto reaching for his bag and Itachi's superior reflexes allow him to react to Naruto's attempted feint immediately. Naruto isn't faster so I don't see how he is catching Itachi. 




> Frog Kata's allows Naruto to manipulate the natural energy surrounding his fist. Manipulating it into Itachi's throat with the same force that snapped Fat Pain's neck should do the trick.


Wasn't that just Naruto's raw strength boosted by Sage Mode? I don't remember anything in the manga indicating that it was the sage chakra that packed the punch. Fukasaku says that the chakra just boosts the range of Naruto's attacks.



> both will have trouble hitting each other,


Itachi is faster in CQC and has the longer reach and feats parrying a stronger Sage than Naruto in CQC.


> but Naruto has far more stamina for Taijutsu.



True, but Itachi isn't running out of juice any time soon. He isn't spamming MS or clones in here. The battle should be over before Itachi's performance starts to suffer. 



> Itachi's genjutsu is a wild card, but like...full knowledge and Sage Sensing.


I don't see how full knowledge and Sage sensing help much against Itachi's genjutsu. Sage sensing allows Naruto to know where Itachi is but not how he is going to move. Fighting blind will just get Naruto killed sooner.




> Typically, Naruto has better options against the Sharingan than Smoke Bomb -> Taijutsu, but everything else is restricted so that becomes his best option.


Hmm, I guess I could see Naruto actually using this. 


> As for getting Itachi in the cloud, the goal would be to throw it at the ground  once they engage in taijutsu, presumably before Itachi attempts to force Naruto into genjutsu.



Itachi's genjutsu range is much bigger than Taijutsu range though. Also, let's say Itachi and Naruto engage in Taijutsu and Naruto manages to create a smoke cloud, then what? Its not like Naruto is able to see through the smoke himself. Sage sensing gives him the location of Itachi but he is still going to throw blind punches. How is he going to aim correctly? And even if he lands a punch its far from putting down Itachi. 

I just don't see Naruto beating Itachi without his Sage strength and durability. Itachi's superior speed, range and skill grants him the win imo.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Problem is SM-Naruto trolled Sandaime-Raikage's reflexes, which literally are as fast as lighting.



 Sure, but he also has a linear fighting style which Gai does not have, hence why he managed to catch Obito off-guard despite having Precognition.

 @Saikyou

 Sage Sensing could potentially be used to sense the chakra build up for Genjutsu before-hand, but considering SM Kabuto even feared Itachi and Sasuke using Genjutsu, I'm going to have to say SM Naruto can't really do anything to counter it besides avoiding eye contact or using Dust Clouds which SM Kabuto did use the former.


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## Ghost (Apr 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sage Sensing could potentially be used to sense the chakra build up for Genjutsu before-hand,


 **


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> **



 

 Sorry if I disappointed you. 

 Though I suppose what I should have said was that he'd have been able to sense the chakra disturbance caused by genjutsu like Karin was implied to do, but , too lazy to be accurate today.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm at work on a phone Saikyou, so I'm just going to keep it short.

Exactly what are these speed and "skill" feats you are referring to that place Itachi above Naruto? The two were even when they fought in the manga, and that was without Frog Katas. Naruto was in KCM, but that form isn't exactly any faster than Sage Mode outside of the body flicker. Actually, Natuto's reasoning for entering Sage Mode against Sandaime suggests the contrary. 

All Itachi did against Kabuto was party a chakra scalpel. It isn't like he sat there casually and beat Kabuto in an extended Taijutsu bout. Speaking of Kabuto, Sage Sensing is exactly what allowed Kabuto to_ dodge Itachi's blade without having to see it._ Twice at that, which is exactly why I don't believe Naruto will be too troubled should he have to close his eyes for a moment to avoid Genjutsu.

So yeah, just link me some scans of what exactly Itachi is going to do to Naruto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2015)

Sharingan should be able to see through a smoke bomb.  

Itachi could still eat a punch and he weighs about as Haku 2 months into his denied puberty.

But the sword and illusions are enough to buy him the time he needs to stab Naruto in the brain.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 10, 2015)

Most of these matches depend on whether or not ghost-punches retain their super-strength after normal super-punches have been restricted. At first, I had assumed that they were only as powerful as Naruto's normal punches (because then what's the point?)

If that's the case, then Tsunade, Gai, A, and Bee would be able to take a whole _lot_ of hits. The main hurtle is Sage sensing though, which as Kabuto demonstrated, is pretty superb for evasion and would allow Naruto to counter-attack very effectively. 

I think only Itachi and Kakashi would be able to outmove Naruto with sage sensing (but not ghost punches) because of their visual precognition. So all the matches come down to a pretty interesting mix of evasion and durability factors. It'd be fun to watch.​


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## Jad (Apr 10, 2015)

The thing is, even Preta dodged the initial punch of Naruto in close quarters,  and as shown in the scan there is only a slight thickness of sage chakara around the fist. That's why I believe Gai can beat this Sage Naruto base durability hybrid version. Every one talks about how many sage hits they can take. But Gai can block just as well, like against the Bijuu tail whip from out if nowhere in chapter 595. And Gai did manevour the upper half of his body during a Kamui warp of a pair of small objects. So he definitely has the bob and weave speed to dodge Sage Naruto's punches. Plus with the reach of his Nunchukus, mastery of Taijutsu and resiliency/durability. I think Gai comfortably takes this.


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## Ghost (Apr 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Exactly what are these speed and "skill" feats you are referring to that place Itachi above Naruto?



Itachi keeping up with KCM Naruto and SM Kabuto and pressuring Bee with his speed put him at least on the same level of speed with SM Naruto. On top of that Itachi has Sharingan precognition and is able to move his hands incredibly fast, as we've seen how he makes hand seals faster than the Sharingan can see and how he matches Sasuke's speed in throwing shurikens while the former had seals prepared on his wrists and Itachi had to pull them out of his bag. Being more skilled in Taijutsu and in pretty much most of combat aspects also help. 


> The two were even when they fought in the manga, and that was without Frog Katas.


Itachi was going against both Naruto and Bee at the same time.


> Naruto was in KCM, but that form isn't exactly any faster than Sage Mode outside of the body flicker.


Even if it isn't it doesn't matter. Itachi has the edge with Sharingan precognition. 


> Actually, Natuto's reasoning for entering Sage Mode against Sandaime suggests the contrary.


SM being faster than KCM? No way. KCM Naruto reacted to and dodged V2 Shunshin from Ei. Sage sensing was used to get the timing right.  


> All Itachi did against Kabuto was party a chakra scalpel.



Senjutsu boosted chakra scalpel is still a lot stronger than a punch from base Naruto. Meaning Naruto's punches are literally useless against Itachi since he can casually block them with Kusanagi and counter attack with his superior speed.


> Speaking of Kabuto, Sage Sensing is exactly what allowed Kabuto to_ dodge Itachi's blade without having to see it._ Twice at that, which is exactly why I don't believe Naruto will be too troubled should he have to close his eyes for a moment to avoid Genjutsu.



Kabuto's and Naruto's Sage Modes are quite different though. To me at least Kabuto's sensing seems to be a lot better than Naruto's in a combat situation. This goes for speed as well. Do you see SM Naruto avoiding attacks from both Itachi and Sasuke at the same time that well? 





> So yeah, just link me some scans of what exactly Itachi is going to do to Naruto.



What exactly is Naruto going to do? Only thing he has over Itachi is stamina and chakra pool and the latter is useless since he can't use Ninjutsu in here. 

Itachi is faster in CQC and has the longer reach, I simply fail to see how Naruto can do anything.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Itachi keeping up with KCM Naruto and SM Kabuto and pressuring Bee with his speed put him at least on the same level of speed with SM Naruto. On top of that Itachi has Sharingan precognition and is able to move his hands incredibly fast, as we've seen how he makes hand seals faster than the Sharingan can see and how he matches Sasuke's speed in throwing shurikens while the former had seals prepared on his wrists and Itachi had to pull them out of his bag.



Itachi keeping up with Naruto was a product of his Sharingan Precognition and fast hands. He didn't fight Naruto without them...



> Being more skilled in Taijutsu and in pretty much most of combat aspects also help.



How is Itachi more skilled than Naruto when Naruto matched Sharingan Itachi blow for blow _without_ Frog Katas. 



> Itachi was going against both Naruto and Bee at the same time.



Wrong.

And please don't bother bringing up the panel where Itachi runs away the moment B enters the skirmish (not even using his seven swords).



> Even if it isn't it doesn't matter. Itachi has the edge with Sharingan precognition.



No he doesn't. 

Sage Sensing is a thing.



> SM being faster than KCM? No way. KCM Naruto reacted to and dodged V2 Shunshin from Ei. Sage sensing was used to get the timing right.



KCM Naruto has the body flicker speed to avoid A, while Sage Mode Naruto doesn't. 

I'm not talking about body flicker speed though.



> Senjutsu boosted chakra scalpel is still a lot stronger than a punch from base Naruto. Meaning Naruto's punches are literally useless against Itachi since he can casually block them with Kusanagi and counter attack with his superior speed.



Itachi can't block what he cannot see. 

Naruto can see and sense the sword. Itachi cannot read the ghost strikes with the Sharingan.



> Kabuto's and Naruto's Sage Modes are quite different though. To me at least Kabuto's sensing seems to be a lot better than Naruto's in a combat situation. This goes for speed as well. Do you see SM Naruto avoiding attacks from both Itachi and Sasuke at the same time that well?



They're different in appearance, but they function exactly the same. Where exactly did Kabuto say that his Sage sensing was special?



> What exactly is Naruto going to do? Only thing he has over Itachi is stamina and chakra pool and the latter is useless since he can't use Ninjutsu in here.



Smash Itachi down with punches he cannot see.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And please don't bother bringing up the panel where Itachi runs away the moment B enters the skirmish (not even using his seven swords).



I don't see why this shouldn't be brought up. If Itachi could simultaneously be fighting KCM Naruto and be able to avoid Bee attacking him from his blindside, then that's noteworthy.

Now, if you recall Itachi's hype during the Kabuto fight, his ability to analyze and predict his enemy's plans is second to none. Kabuto hyped that quirk of Itachi's above Sharingan prediction/analysis.

This would naturally play a role in handling the ghost punch. Granted, the first one is a freebie. But if its strength is restricted and Itachi gets back up, then Itachi with blade-range can counter it.

So assuming the two are roughly equal in evasion, Itachi's tactical edge with genjutsu, having a blade, and intelligence should outweigh Naruto's tactical edge with ghost-punches.​


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see why this shouldn't be brought up. If Itachi could simultaneously be fighting KCM Naruto and be able to avoid Bee attacking him from his blindside, then that's noteworthy.



I don't see why it's noteworthy. He did it once, and it doesn't take next level insight to hear big ass B coming from behind. 



> Now, if you recall Itachi's hype during the Kabuto fight, his ability to analyze and predict his enemy's plans is second to none. Kabuto hyped that quirk of Itachi's above all the eyes of the Uchiha clan.



That would help in controlling the ebb & flow of the fight, essentially forcing Naruto to move the way he wants him to. That would help in preserving stamina.

That said, Itachi lacks a way to force Naruto into using a ghost strike. Should Itachi begin preparing to block them by predicting their usage, Naruto could stop using them. Itachi would then be wasting energy putting up guards unnecessarily, which creates other openings for Naruto.



> The sword and genjutsu can't really be ignored here either. Assuming they're roughly equal in evasion, Itachi's tactical edge with genjutsu, having a blade, and intelligence outweighs Naruto's edge with ghost-punches.



They're equal in evading attacks when factoring in Sensing & Dojutsu Precognition, but Naruto's sensing works on that Katana, while Itachi's eyes don't work on invisible punches. It becomes a guessing game which immediately puts Itachi at a disadvantage.   

Genjutsu is only a factor should Itachi force Naruto into it (like he did Kakashi), but Naruto can afford to close his eyes in this fight momentarily thanks to sensing altering him to oncoming attacks.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't see why it's noteworthy. He did it once, and it doesn't take next level insight to hear big ass B coming from behind.



Bee may be big, but that doesn't mean he can't attack stealthily. He is an extraordinarily skilled ninja, after all. Minato didn't notice Bee stealthily put a blade on his belly for example.​


Rocky said:


> They're equal in evading attacks when factoring in Sensing & Dojutsu Precognition, but Naruto's sensing works on that Katana, while Itachi's eyes don't work on invisible punches. It becomes a guessing game which immediately puts Itachi at a disadvantage.



My point is that Naruto's ghost-punches have a range smaller than that katana, and that given Itachi's intelligence, he'd fight outside of ghost-punch range but inside katana/genjutsu-range.​


Rocky said:


> Genjutsu is only a factor should Itachi force Naruto into it (like he did Kakashi)



Kabuto closed his eyes completely not because he thought Itachi would hand-grapple a Sage and physically force his head to look, but because tricking an opponent into eye contact is doable.​


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Bee may be big, but that doesn't mean he can't attack stealthily. He is an extraordinarily skilled ninja, after all. Minato didn't notice Bee stealthily put a blade on his belly for example.​



Actually Minato did notice it, which is the reason he wasn't impaled.

Nevertheless, even if B is capable of stealthy apporach, he certainly didn't attempt it there.



> he'd fight outside of ghost-punch range but inside katana/genjutsu-range.​



_That range doesn't exist_. 



> Kabuto closed his eyes completely not because he thought Itachi would hand-grapple a Sage and physically force his head to look, but because tricking an opponent into eye contact is doable.​



Edo Itachi has unlimited access to Susano'o, so Kabuto could've been forced. 

I don't know Itachi is supposed to trick Naruto without clones, especially when the sage can close his eyes and rely on sensing if he feels eye contact is imminent.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

That took so long on a phone


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## Sadgoob (Apr 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Actually Minato did notice it, which is the reason he wasn't impaled.



After the fact. The blade was already positioned while Minato was yelling "I won't fail!" at A. _Then_ he noticed. Point being: Bee isn't some lumbering oaf incapable of a competent back-attack.

I think if you're being fair, the list of ninja that could simultaneously parry KCM Naruto's strikes while sensing and evading Bee attacking from their blindspot isn't large. It's a good feat.​


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

The list of ninja who could compete with KCM Naruto hand to hand is small to begin with.

I'm not trying to say that Itachi is average when it comes to combat senses, but I don't think that feat against B is something that tells us Itachi will be dodging ghost strikes consistently.


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2015)

You know Saikyou, the way you describe Itachi in a Taijutsu fight with Naruto makes me wander, why do you have SM Naruto beating Gai "fairly easily". Gai is a better Taijutsu fighter than Itachi is, and already handled a Sharingan user in CQC better than KCM Naruto did. Plus with all those compliments Kishimoto gives Gai about his skill in Taijutsu and skill with weapons, speed, durability, stamina, his resiliency feats, just anything to do with physical attributes, I just don't understand.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

I would take Naruto forever to down Gai, but I don't see how the Green Beast can win with ghost strikes being a thing, even presuming they are nerfed in strength here.


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I would take Naruto forever to down Gai, but I don't see how the Green Beast can win with ghost strikes being a thing, even presuming they are nerfed in strength here.



Yeah but like I said, Preta Path already dodged the initial hit by Naruto, quite cleanly, but got hit by almost like another fist, or half a fist, attached to Naruto's real fist. So if Preta path can dodge with his speed a direct punch, Gai should be able to dodge the whole enchilada. So with saying that, and with the scan I showed you of Gai moving his upper body in-between a Kamui warp of such small objects (Nunchuku's) and, his fast reflexes as evident in my past exmaples (e.g. Databook - fast as lighting reflexes), I don't see the problem of him dodging blows.

Note: With Frog Kata, there is delay in the sage chakra being a threat. Preta path was able to cross his head passed Naruto's fist, until the Sage Chakra became a 'thing', and nailed him in the face. My take is Gai is such a speed fighter, he won't be in the way of those delayed Ghost punches, especially with knowledge.

But dodging is just one aspect of Taijutsu, he can just as well block, which seems to be somehow neglected in everyone's posts. Blocking significantly reduces any sought of advantage Naruto had with his _Frog Kata_ strength. This is evident in Jiraiya's strength being blocked by Human Pain easily with one arm, and Deva realm blocking a kick with no injuries from Sage Naruto - although he did lose his footing.

Naruto also loses out his advantage in range, since Gai has Nunchuku's that hits you from all sides (as stated in the Databook). Which makes me question you this, with all of Gai's advantages, shouldn't the real question be is - How can Base Naruto take Gai's blows.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

Jad said:


> Yeah but like I said, Preta Path already dodged the initial hit by Naruto, quite cleanly, but got hit by almost like another fist, or half a fist, attached to Naruto's real fist. So if Preta path can dodge with his speed a direct punch, Gai should be able to dodge the whole enchilada.



The enormous range of Frog Fu was on display when Naruto launched the Chakr Receiver from Son Goku's skin by smashing natural energy into it _from the inside._

Unless by "dodging" you mean diving a few meters in the opposite direction, Gai isn't getting out of the way.



> But dodging is just one aspect of Taijutsu, he can just as well block, which seems to be somehow neglected in everyone's posts.



Dodging is the typical setup for a counterstrike though. Gai could block Naruto's hits easily here, but then he wouldn't be able to do anything else because there's no window for a counter attack.

That said, Gai is stronger than Naruto here. Alot stronger. If he's well versed in submission techniques, I could see Gai choking Naruto or snapping a bone should he get ahold of him. 



> Naruto also loses out his advantage in range, since Gai has Nunchuku's that hits you from all sides (as stated in the Databook). Which makes me question you this, with all of Gai's advantages, shouldn't the real question be is - How can Base Naruto take Gai's blows.



Naruto's range is still superior, and his heightened evasiveness from Danger Sensing is how he's avoiding Gai's strikes.


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The enormous range of Frog Fu was on display when Naruto launched the Chakr Receiver from Son Goku's skin by smashing natural energy into it _from the inside._
> 
> Unless by "dodging" you mean diving a few meters in the opposite direction, Gai isn't getting out of the way.



Can you throw a scan my way, I'm, forgetting.



> Dodging is the typical setup for a counterstrike though. Gai could block Naruto's hits easily here, but then he wouldn't be able to do anything else because there's no window for a counter attack.
> 
> That said, Gai is stronger than Naruto here. Alot stronger. If he's well versed in submission techniques, I could see Gai choking Naruto or snapping a bone should he get ahold of him.



Why not.



> Naruto's range is still superior, and his heightened evasiveness from Danger Sensing is how he's avoiding Gai's strikes.



Like I said, Naruto had a Sandaime Raikage running at him from a pretty large distance. That and Danger Sensing had little help against Base Madara's speed and kick in that scan I provided. I mean did he sense Iruka's intention to block his path way back when he was escaping Turtle Island? By the way is it called Danger Sensing?


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

Jad said:


> Can you throw a scan my way, I'm, forgetting.



_Mhm._




> Like I said, Naruto had a Sandaime Raikage running at him from a pretty large distance.



It wasn't reacting to A3 that was impressive. It was doing so at the last second to prevent a counter attack.

Furthermore, Kabuto demonstrated how enhanced perceptual ability aids in dodging things very well.



> That and Danger Sensing had little help against Base Madara's speed and kick in that scan I provided. I mean did he sense Iruka's intention to block his path way back when he was escaping Turtle Island?



It doesn't appear to be a passive ability. Are you cliaming Naruto doesn't have Sage sensing, because multiple things contradict that notion?



> By the way is it called Danger Sensing?



I think Naruto called it that, or maybe the Databook. I remember it being called this somewhere lol.


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _Mhm._



Yeah but come on. That looks like his using his strength to compress the walls of meat to push the Stake out. It even looks like the ripples (waves) are traveling down to the Stake. We know that Ghost Punches have a solid chakra nature to them, hence Naruto breaking Preta's face. So how does that Solid Chakra even make it through Solid walls of meat to be used to push the stake out? To me my reasoning makes sense, since we never saw this sought of reach in Ghost Punches when it counted in Taijutsu, especially not in the Pain arc.



> It wasn't reacting to A3 that was impressive. It was doing so at the last second to prevent a counter attack.



Yeah that's true, but again, the Madara thing shows the difference between having time to concentrate and counter a VERY linear move. A move that is even stated in the Databook to disallow enemies attack through his Raiton Shield, implying there is no need to counter an attack [].



> Furthermore, Kabuto demonstrated how enhanced perceptual ability aids in dodging things very well.


 That's true, but aren't we talking about Naruto here? Just because Sage Snake mode and Kabuto can act on those impluses, does not mean Naruto can just as confidently. I mean just because they have sensing, doesn't mean they are invulnerable to being touched, just like Sharingan users. It just as much depends on ones skill to read attacks, and because Gai's proficiency and mastery in Taijutsu, it's going to be too difficult for Naruto NOT to get hit. You have to tell that there is a stark difference in the way Gai will engange Naruto and the way Sandaime foolishly engaged Naruto with his point-blank linear attack. I mean Naruto was probably only able to read that attack because of how damn linear it was.



> It doesn't appear to be a passive ability. Are you cliaming Naruto doesn't have Sage sensing, because multiple things contradict that notion?



Alright that may be true. But does that mean he has to switch it on manually every time he believes an attack is coming, so he can sense and dodge it at the right time? The way I saw it, he has to actually concentrate if he believes something might happen. Like he was concentrating against the Paths, and knew something was going to happen to Tsunade, or perhaps even against Sandaime Raikage's long run, whose arm was out stretched (essentially the attack) before he even crossed Naruto's path.

I see Gai treating Naruto like Madara did to Naruto in that one scan.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

Jad said:


> Yeah but come on. That looks like his using his strength to compress the walls of meat to push the Stake out. It even looks like the ripples (waves) are traveling down to the Stake. We know that Ghost Punches have a solid chakra nature to them, hence Naruto breaking Preta's face. So how does that Solid Chakra even make it through Solid walls of meat to be used to push the stake out? To me my reasoning makes sense, since we never saw this sought of reach in Ghost Punches when it counted in Taijutsu, especially not in the Pain arc.



...the ghost strikes have nothing to do with chakra. _Nothing._

They're pure natural energy – which is why they're invisible to non-Sages – being manipulated and used as an extension of the body.



> Yeah that's true, but again, the Madara thing shows the difference between having time to concentrate and counter a VERY linear move. A move that is even stated in the Databook to disallow enemies attack through his Raiton Shield, implying there is no need to counter an attack [].



I'm not bringing up the Raikage in order to compare him to Gai. I'm bringing him up in order to demonstrate that Naruto can foresee things in battle.



> That's true, but aren't we talking about Naruto here? Just because Sage Snake mode and Kabuto can act on those impluses, does not mean Naruto can just as confidently. I mean just because they have sensing, doesn't mean they are invulnerable to being touched, just like Sharingan users.



Erm, Naruto should be capable of avoiding the majority of Gai's blows should he foresee them. Kabuto isn't normally some Taijutsu demon, but the perception-enhancing abilities of Sage Mode turned him into one. Like-wise Obito isn't a roof tier martial artist, but he was able to read Gai's strikes with his Sharingan precognition.

Though Gai is one of the more advanced taijutsu users, he doesn't possess the unpredictability (which is what beat the Sharingan) of, say, Drunken Fist users or the Seven Sword dance thing. The Iron Fist _is_ a rather predictable style; it's just that it relies on speed & power, which Gai excels in.



> It just as much depends on ones skill to read attacks



That is explicably false. Sage Mode (and the Sharingan) basically read attacks for the user. Their own anticipation skill (a _huge_ factor in close combat) becomes largely irrelevant because of their foresight. 



> Alright that may be true. But does that mean he has to switch it on manually every time he believes an attack is coming, so he can sense and dodge it at the right time?



He can just "switch it on" when he engages Gai in general.



> I see Gai treating Naruto like Madara did to Naruto in that one scan.



Base Gai can replicate Madara's feat because...?


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...the ghost strikes have nothing to do with chakra. _Nothing._
> 
> They're pure natural energy – which is why they're invisible to non-Sages – being manipulated and used as an extension of the body.
> 
> Base Gai can replicate Madara's feat because...?



I have to go out, but I will continue this discussion after in more detail. Also I said "Sage Chakara" when I should have said Natural energy, it was just my mistake. Invisibility is true. But just catching me out on saying it was Chakra when it's energy takes away nothing from what I said. It's invisible but it still has a solid nature to it, hence it pushed back Preta path.

I mean the scan you linked me even shows the strength of Naruto's blow to the Bijuu, since it literally illustrates the ripple effects coming from the strike on to the surface area. The very first panel.

Also the Databook says the Nunchuku's Gai uses come at the person from any direction []. That can be pretty unpredictable when used by a Taijutsu master like Gai. Also Strong Fist isn't a Taijutsu style per say, it literally is only described as the ability to perform exterior damage. You could say A's style is Strong Fist (Iron Fist). Also Gai's specialty is "All Taijutsu" as stated in the Databook. So if he wants to be unpredictable in Nature, he can if he wants - like when against Obito or stealing Kisame's sword if those count. His not limited to one style, it's just Konoha styled movements (e.g. Konoha Whirlwind this, Konoha Rock Elbow that) have worked for him in almost every scenario when it comes to Taijutsu exchanges.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

Jad said:


> I mean the scan you linked me even shows the strength of Naruto's blow to the Bijuu, since it literally illustrates the ripple effects coming from the strike on to the surface area. The very first panel.



I think that "ripple effect" is supposed to be depicting the natural energy moving towards and slamming into the spike. He didn't move it with jut physical strength. That's not what he said he was going to do when he opted for Sage Mode...



> Also the Databook says the Nunchuku's Gai uses come at the person from any direction []. That can be pretty unpredictable when used by a Taijutsu master like Gai.



Indeed. But not to somebody with what is essentially foresight.

Sharingan Obito casually read Gai's Nunchaku and caught them. 

Shraingan Sasuke failed miserably to read B's swords and got stabbed.



> Also Strong Fist isn't a Taijutsu style per say, it literally is only described as the ability to perform exterior damage. You could say A's style is Strong Fist (Iron Fist).



Why would Iron fist not be considered a style like Gentle or Druken fist....?

Btw, A's style is _clearly_ wrestling. I mean, come on. Liger (Power) Bomb. Lariat. Guillotine (Leg) Drop....



> Also Gai's specialty is "All Taijutsu" as stated in the Databook. So if he wants to be unpredictable in Nature, he can if he wants - like when against Obito or stealing Kisame's sword if those count.



Yeah no. Databook hyperbole. I'll grant that Gai likely is proficient in other things besides Iron Fist, but to sit here and act like he's great at other _elite_ styles such as Gentle Fist, Druken Fist, or B's steel hurricane thing is pure overestimation. 



> His not limited to one style, it's just Konoha styled movements (e.g. Konoha Whirlwind this, Konoha Rock Elbow that) have worked for him in almost every scenario when it comes to Taijutsu exchanges.



That's because this is his primary style, or in other words the one he practices the most. 

He's not limited to one style, but there's no evidence that he's good enough at anything _so_ unpredictable that even precognition fails.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2015)

He loses to all of them.


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## teabiscuit (Apr 12, 2015)

Sennin mode Naruto has always struck me as being one of the most deadly characters around, as far as pure taijutsu goes. He's fast enough to smash Asura in one shot from across Konoha and is quick enough to precisely time a counter-attack against a Raikage. Even if we take away his ability to fall onto stone spikes like nobody's business and the strength that lets him chuck massive fuck-off rhinos to the moon, every other aforementioned quality is still mighty impressive. 

Not quite top tier impressive, because you need to be a monstrous lightning bruiser in the manga to be considered one of the best close quarter combatants, but impressive enough to help him hold his own. Thankfully, most of the so-called top tiers in the challenge are similarly handicapped, so not all is lost for sennin Naruto.

I think he can take on Neji without too much difficulty. Neji is very skilled, but not really fast enough to tango with the best of 'em and I don't think he could take too many of Naruto's deadly frog katas before crumpling. Between Naruto's speed, precognition and his ability to fight at extended melee range due his frog katas, I don't see Neji actually doing much of anything before losing. Basically, he gets one shot.

He could feasibly beat Tsunade, if she doesn't regenerate and he pressures her enough so that he doesn't get the opportunity to just heal any wound he gets inflicts upon her. But, without his crazy strength and ninjutsu (which is where most of his firepower comes from, let's be honest), I don't see him getting lasting damage on her. Even with infinite sage mode, she's going to out last him somehow. And, with no natural energy enhanced durability, a single hit is totally going to kill him. Precognition and reflexes will only help him dance around her for so long.

Naruto probably loses to everyone else bar Itachi and Kakashi. Gai, Bee and the Yondaime Raikage are similar to Tsunade; they're durable enough to tank frog katas and hit like a rain of bricks. I don't see sennin mode Naruto with his base durability taking too many of their hits when:

Gai is able to casually smash rocks even without his weapons.
Bee inflicts piercing damage and has body numbing raiton flow that Naruto has no resistance against.
A form of Naruto with superior physical attributes noted that an attack from Ei could kill him. Ei doesn't have his shroud here, but at the same time, Naruto is also limited to base durability so it balances out.
 With Itachi and Kakashi, I just plain don't think the two would survive against frog katas. They have full knowledge against it, sure, but that only helps so much when they're limited to close combat and their combat instinct is to likely be on the offensive rather than the punch-dodge pattern medical shinobi employ. That makes them much more liable to get whacked by those ghost punches, and the Sharingan won't help one bit with that. Itachi can win with clever genjutsu, either by trapping him completely or by trapping him long enough to straight up kill him but Naruto has smoke bombs, flawless sensing and full knowledge so that's unlikely.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2015)

I think Naruto should have no problem reacting to Gai's Soushuga attacks, however, that's not the problem. The problem is that Gai possesses a similar version to Bee's sword styles he was able to kick twice before Obito could advance even a bit. And he has Sharingan Precognition, wich is similar.

It's not Naruto evading that i doubt, it's Naruto doing so in a bad position, if Gai is fast enough to attack twice before Naruto throws his punch, something he can pull of with his weapon, i see him getting the upper hand, especially since Naruto would be forced to dodge, and being forced to dodge will only give Gai more openings.


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That took so long on a phone



Everything single post I do is from a phone... You don't know the pain.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2015)

That reminds me, I meant to ask; no computer? Or are you literally never home?


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## Veracity (Apr 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That reminds me, I meant to ask; no computer? Or are you literally never home?



No computer 
I'm not really the type to have one or need one. Not even the type to be on a site like this. It's a mystery why I'm on here so frequently with that being said lol


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2015)

I had the same question a couple of times. Since in every post i saw Likes Boss saying he was on a phone.

I've tried to type in a phone. But i just can't. I prefer to wait to come back home and do it. I just can't handle it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2015)

I'd probably have around 30 posts if I were to type everything on the phone.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

@turrin ghost punches arent any stronger than the frog katas user actual hits. the natural energy is an extension of the user. no where is it implied that ghost punches hit harder

Actually without naruto Sm strength they should all win

this is base naruto with base level frog katas. i.e no super strength yh. gai and Ei wont even have a problem with it. Ei still got super strength he catches naruto after blocking a hit then raiga bomb for the win


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## Jad (Apr 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think that "ripple effect" is supposed to be depicting the natural energy moving towards and slamming into the spike. He didn't move it with jut physical strength. That's not what he said he was going to do when he opted for Sage Mode...



I mean this [].




Rocky said:


> Indeed. But not to somebody with what is essentially foresight.
> 
> Sharingan Obito casually read Gai's Nunchaku and caught them.



But the conclusion was for Obito to phase something so his body would be solid, that way Naruto could hit him with a Rasengan. Obviously it failed, but that also played as a further distraction in the final lay up of Naruto hitting Obito with a Rasengan that was Kamui'd. Hence Gai letting his Nunchuku's get warped, not himself being used as the bait. Otherwise if it was easy to read Gai's movements, he'd be warped the moment he played with Obito in CQC.




Rocky said:


> Why would Iron fist not be considered a style like Gentle or Druken fist....?
> 
> Btw, A's style is _clearly_ wrestling. I mean, come on. Liger (Power) Bomb. Lariat. Guillotine (Leg) Drop....



Gouken was only ever described as dealing damage to the user on the surface, breaking bones. That means it can act as an umbrella statement for any other subsidiary Taijutsu style, like Drunken Fist. It's never stated as an actual list of techniques. Jyuuken however, it not only described as a way to hurt the enemy, there is only one Taijutsu style in existence that does so.




Rocky said:


> Yeah no. Databook hyperbole. I'll grant that Gai likely is proficient in other things besides Iron Fist, but to sit here and act like he's great at other _elite_ styles such as Gentle Fist, Druken Fist, or B's steel hurricane thing is pure overestimation.


My point was just that Gai is proficient enough in Taijutsu that if his way of fighting isn't working, he can regress to something akin to Rock Lee's fight with Gaara. The hit and escape style. Or utilize weapons. Anyways, that was just me pointing to the fact that Gai is so overly more skilled in Taijutsu than Naruto that I find it hard for him NOT to get hit, at least once, as I will try to prove.

Here, Naruto was not able to counter Preta paths advance in CQC, that he got clocked in the stomach [2][3]. And we know people can move there arms at least within the Gravity Pull like Kakashi [4][5]. Using this scan of Naruto failing to counter, and the one were Madara smacked him with a kick, just proves that Naruto is not always going to counter or read Gai's movements. It's only going to take one hit from Gai, considering even Obito, whose opinion should matter, was impressed by his strength [6]. Plus all those comments from Kishimoto detailing about Gai's base strength in the Databook.

Also here is a quote of mine from a passed thread on *Gai's reflexes* (on - top of his reflexes in the Databook being described *Lightning Fast*):



> I think some of Gai's reactions and reflexes are overlooked, I would like to show you some of them. On top of his fights in Taijtusu, these ones stand out I guess:
> 
> Here Gai was able to react from an attack from behind by Obito [1]
> Gai was able to notice a twitch under-water from Kisame's finger, so he is quite perceptive - reacting to it quickly [2]
> ...




*Base Gai speed *as I believe:



			
				Jad said:
			
		

> Let's look at Gai's base speed in comparison to Shrouded Naruto. Naruto was half the distance closer to Obito then Gai [7]. Not only that, but he started running before Gai did [8]. Gai had potentially only started running at this point [9]. Yet reached Obito when Naruto's real body caught up to Obito's [10].
> 
> The  also *exemplifies* his _quality_ of speed quite well:
> 
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

^ SM Naruto had already used his Shadow Shuriken technique which does drain a lot of his Sage Chakra which does lower his speed and reactions as stated by Deva Path after Naruto launched his first FRS.

 There's also the fact that Naruto, due to being pulled by Bansho Tenin only had one direction to attack, making his fighting style at the point very linear making it rather easy for Preta Path to react to him, so it really wouldn't have mattered as any offensive maneuver at the time would've been null.


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## Jad (Apr 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ SM Naruto had already used his Shadow Shuriken technique which does drain a lot of his Sage Chakra which does lower his speed and reactions as stated by Deva Path after Naruto launched his first FRS.



I checked the Manga Panda translations, he does say his Power has decreased, but nowhere does he mention his speed and reactions had done so. Power decrease is just him saying Senjutsu Naruto is only limited to smaller techniques due to Chakra exhaustion. Not over all speed and strength and reactions. 

Two translations vouch for me on this, even though both say nothing about his power decrease - just chakra:

[1]: "Deva: He's lost most of his Senjutsu chakra...
That last technique drained the majority of his reserve.."

[2]: "Deva!Pain: (It would appear that his Senjutsu chakra has lessened significantly... // I daresay he used most of it up in that technique just now...)"

Plus Naruto didn't seem drained or tired when he was Gravity pulled by Deva. He still has enough Senjutsu chakra to maintain Sage Mode, and as such still has reaction and physical abilities still in tact, and to look forward too. Since those don't expend any Chakra at all.



> There's also the fact that Naruto, due to being pulled by Bansho Tenin only had one direction to attack, making his fighting style at the point very linear making it rather easy for Preta Path to react to him, so it really wouldn't have mattered as any offensive maneuver at the time would've been null.



Preta Path equally came at him from a linear direction, as did Naruto, I mean he still has hand to hand and kicks to his ability. It just so happens that even Sage Mode Naruto cannot account for all successful clashes in Taijutsu with his senjutsu abilities, even if they are linear. Which is the point I'm trying to make. Just like Madara kicking Naruto into the ground, Naruto is not always going to be successful in Taijutsu exchanges, especially against one as skillful and talented as Might Guy. Hence the reason I believe Might Guy beats this version of Naruto in this thread.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

I'll get to your points tomorrow.

 Just want to point out that I agree with your PoV on how Gai handles SM Naruto. I just felt the need to bring my points to the discussion here.


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## Jad (Apr 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'll get to your points tomorrow.
> 
> Just want to point out that I agree with your PoV on how Gai handles SM Naruto. I just felt the need to bring my points to the discussion here.



That's cool, and thanks. However, I think I've said everything that I could in this thread, but I'll still read what's posted.


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