# Sage Naruto and Sage Jiraiya vs. Mangekyo Itachi and Mangekyo Sasuke



## ATastyMuffin (Jul 24, 2013)

*Location:* Crater of flattened Leaf Village
*State of Mind:* In-character
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Restrictions:* Kotoamatsukami
*Starting Distance:* 30 meters

Jiraiya already has the two Elder Sages mounted atop his shoulders. Both Sasuke and Itachi have their Mangekyo Sharingan activated from the start. Sage Naruto does not have two of his clones hidden safely gathering natural energy.

Itachi is at full health.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

Change the location to something stealthy. That's where Jiraiya operates best, and that will allow for the best discussion.


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## Ashi (Jul 25, 2013)

Sage team takes this

Inb4nikushimisaysitachisolos


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Location:* Crater of flattened Leaf Village
> *State of Mind:* In-character
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> *Restrictions:* Kotoamatsukami
> ...



I see...so how long do I wait until you even out the fight? 

but seriously I think team mangekyou takes it with high difficulty because sauce is the weak link but luckily itachi is the top dog too so it almost evens out. itachi would think of a plan while sasuke stupidly/helpfully runs in with susanoo lighting everything on fire, no way are they going to be able to dodge amaterasu and totsuka while also avoiding eye contact, even sensing isn't enough kabuto proved this (which jiraiya doesn't have anyway)


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

so, is Sasuke limited to his Danzou fight feats?

Or does he get his EMS Susanoo feats since he could now plausibly use them with an MS?

What happens after KCM Naruto arm wrestles the hachibi into submission?


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## Augustus Haugerud (Jul 25, 2013)

Don't assume that they can't dodge Amaterasu, Sage mode makes you pretty dang fast. 



> avoiding eye contact, even sensing isn't enough kabuto proved this (which jiraiya doesn't have anyway)


  Sage mode gives you the ability to sense others chakra. If you're referring to the Kabuto vs Itachi & Sasuke fight where Itachi still puts Kabuto under Izanami regardless, he clearly stated that it doesn't require eye contact.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> while sasuke stupidly/helpfully runs in with susanoo lighting everything on fire, no way are they going to be able to dodge amaterasu and totsuka while also avoiding eye contact, even sensing isn't enough kabuto proved this (which jiraiya doesn't have anyway)



Hi I'm Naruto. I'm an Uzumaki, so I've been gifted with incredible amounts of Chakra ever since I was young. Even before I became a Genin, I could pull of forbidden Clonejutsu that would nearly kill normal Shinobi. Now that I'm older, trained, and a _Perfect Sage_, I'm going to create a 50-man army of myself all wielding giant mountain-hollowing Rasengans to stop any and all "charging in" shenanigans.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Sage Mode team wins high-extreme difficulty.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Jul 25, 2013)

And before someone cries foul, read the bottom of this page. 

C1


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Trance said:


> Sage Mode team wins high-extreme difficulty.



Talk about the most drastic set change ever.

 ->


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Talk about the most drastic set change ever.
> 
> ->



Figured I'd have Wiz as my set for a week or so.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Sage mode gives you the ability to sense others chakra



Jiriaya did not perfect sage mode, and was not a sensor. The Asura Realm of Pain ambushed him, remember? Similarly, he could not sense the chameleon, but needed Shima to find the creature. I'd imagine there are other examples as well.

The match depends on whether or not Jiraiya gets away to hide successfully. If he's in an ideal position to support Naruto with jutsu like Yomi Numa then the Uchiha brothers could fall. Itachi would probably outsmart them otherwise though.​


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## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Don't assume that they can't dodge Amaterasu, Sage mode makes you pretty dang fast.
> 
> 
> Sage mode gives you the ability to sense others chakra. If you're referring to the Kabuto vs Itachi & Sasuke fight where Itachi still puts Kabuto under Izanami regardless, he clearly stated that it doesn't require eye contact.


SM doesn't make you faster (ok, maybe it does) and if it does, to what extent? People act as if both SM Jiraiya and SM Naruto have the same kind of reflexes Kabuto had to dodge that Susano'O arrow, it's different. Anyway, even if they can sense Amaterasu, what are they going to do? Outrun it? Yeah right, like if that worked for Hebi Sasuke. 

Not declaring any kind of winner, but just pointing out this.



Rocky said:


> Hi I'm Naruto. I'm an Uzumaki, so I've been gifted with incredible amounts of Chakra ever since I was young. Even before I became a Genin, I could pull of forbidden Clonejutsu that would nearly kill normal Shinobi. Now that I'm older, trained, and a _Perfect Sage_, I'm going to create a 50-man army of myself all wielding giant mountain-hollowing Rasengans to stop any and all "charging in" shenanigans.


Fvck off, Naruto. I'm Sasuke. I don't need chakra reserves, I don't need any of your bunshin bullshit you always use. I'm original, I don't need your annoying speeches about love, unicorns and shit. I've always been better than you, the chicks want me, everyone wants me. Obito, Orochimaru and many others, even your dad praises me more than he does to you. Besides, I have a longer dick. I'll burn you until you're nothing more than a pile of ashes I'll blow while your perverted master praises me.




Ignore this, but I had to do it.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Outrun it?



No, Naruto creates like 500 clones that get in its way.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

The Uchiha Bros. prep Kirin, throw up their Susano'o, and wipe the Sage duo off the map.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

How does Sasuke use his Susano'o and Kirin at the same time. His hand needs to be connected. Susano'o would prevent that.


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Kirin is not going to be the uchiha brother's answer, not when Naruto can cancel it with a FRS.  Or when Sasuke nor itachi can even locate the sages due to dust cloud.   Or when the MS duo have no idea which is the real naruto among his many clones.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

I would love to see Naruto time a Rasenshuriken to the launch of Kirin.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How does Sasuke use his Susano'o and Kirin at the same time. His hand needs to be connected. Susano'o would prevent that.



why would sasuke need his susanoo? he can just step under itachi's "completely invincible" susanoo (like a couple in the rain sharing one umbrella ) and save chakra while prepping kirin


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I would love to see Naruto time a Rasenshuriken to the launch of Kirin.



Pretty sure he doesn't need to considering Kirin announces itself as a giant mass of shape manipulate lightning attached to sasuke's hand for more than half a chapter, then turning into the beast, and finally being prepped to fire at sasuke's hand motion.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Pretty sure he doesn't need to considering Kirin announces itself as a giant mass of shape manipulate lightning attached to sasuke's hand for more than half a chapter.



Oh, you mean when Sasuke's giving his speech.

Itachi would just counter it with Magatama, as he wouldn't be preoccupied.


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Oh, you mean when Sasuke's giving his speech.
> 
> Itachi would just counter it with Magatama, as he wouldn't be preoccupied.


YM is no where near enough firepower to counter a FRS, and Sasuke giving a speech was irrelevant since he was actively shape manipulating the lightning while talking which means even if he wasn't talking he would have had to go through the same process.

Now if Kirin was prepped and ready to fire at the beginning of his speech, then sure, you'd have a point.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How does Sasuke use his Susano'o and Kirin at the same time. His hand needs to be connected. Susano'o would prevent that.



Sasuke guides the electrical current with his control of Raiton. We saw him spit fire through his Susano'o. Madara did it, too. We saw Itachi poke Sasuke's forehead through Susano'o. Susano'o seems to have this freaky, one-way effect.



ueharakk said:


> Kirin is not going to be the uchiha brother's answer, not when Naruto can cancel it with a FRS.



Even if Naruto could magically get the timing right...Kirin ain't Raiton chakra- it's natural lightning. And it's way more penetrative than FRS, so it's gonna plow through if not push the damn thing back down onto Naruto.



> Or when Sasuke nor itachi can even locate the sages due to dust cloud.



Dust settles.



> Or when the MS duo have no idea which is the real naruto among his many clones.



An Amaterasu sweep and subsequent Kirin strike would resolve that.


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Even if Naruto could magically get the timing right...Kirin ain't Raiton chakra- it's natural lightning. And it's way more penetrative than FRS, so it's gonna plow through if not push the damn thing back down onto Naruto.


1) the release of Kirin is extremely fast, not the tell-tale prep which is when Naruto throws the FRS

2) The elemental affinities don't only apply to chakra, they apply to natural elements as well.  That's why baku's suction works just like a fuuton would, why obito's kamui works just like a fuuton would, why Darui can channel his black lightning through natural water just like he does through a suiton etc.

3) Where do you get Kirin being way more penetrative than FRS?  



Nikushimi said:


> Dust settles.


Dust cloud is used again.

Or FRS cancels an unused kirin while the brothers wait for dust cloud to settle.  Or while they wait for it to settle, they get vaporized by naruto's nukes, or sunk by Jiraiya's yomi numa.




Nikushimi said:


> An Amaterasu sweep and subsequent Kirin strike would resolve that.


Because clones with equal or greater physical abilities to sasuke are going to all get taken out by an amaterasu sweep.

Because Itachi/Sasuke don't have to focus on a fast target in order for amaterasu to hit it.

Because amaterasu can be used while in a susanoo that completely surrounds the user

Because no clone are going to be behind clones, thus shielded from amaterasu.


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## Krippy (Jul 25, 2013)

Uchiha Bros win with High Diff. Jiraiya get taken out with Susano'o arrows with no knowledge and no sensing feats. Then the bros procede to gangbang Naruto and wipe him out of existence with Kirin.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 25, 2013)

FRS can't counter Kirin. Even if Naruto did somehow launch it at the same time, the thunder clouds are still there. Sasuke would just raise his hand, reform the lightning that's still in the air, and nuke the field with it. FRS isn't going to make the lightning clouds dissipate.


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## ShadowReaper (Jul 25, 2013)

Sage Naruto>Itachi
Sage Jiraya>Sasuke


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## Kai (Jul 25, 2013)

Jiraiya looks to be the liability here. He can't fight on the front lines as confidently as the other three can - without proper sensing feats from a perfect sage and a solid defense against the insta-executable MS jutsu, he's forced to fall back and prep/perform guerilla tactics in dust clouds or be vulnerable to Susano'o arrows and Enton combinations face to face.

Naruto can hold his own against either Uchiha, but either Uchiha would solo Jiraiya with faster offensive execution. Naruto is put in a disadvantageous position of either protecting Jiraiya on the front lines or compensating for his power when J-man opts for guerilla tactics or preps for Gamarinsho.

Uchiha bros win high difficulty.


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> FRS can't counter Kirin. Even if Naruto did somehow launch it at the same time, the thunder clouds are still there. Sasuke would just raise his hand, reform the lightning that's still in the air, and nuke the field with it. FRS isn't going to make the lightning clouds dissipate.



Fuuton Rasenshuriken would destroy or dissipate lightning, which would cancel the technique.  Once the collected lightning is gone, the thunderclouds go as well, else Sasuke would have simply fired another Kirin after the first one since the thunderclouds would have still been there.


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## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

People are forgetting the sharingan can easily see through a dust cloud because that's one of the Sharingan's pasive abilities; see chakra.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> People are forgetting the sharingan can easily see through a dust cloud because that's one of the Sharingan's pasive abilities; see chakra.



The Rinnegan can also see chakra and didn't see through the dust cloud.


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## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Rinnegan can also see chakra and didn't see through the dust cloud.


You have to read carefully my post, Flaming. I said "passive abilities" (okay, I mispelled the word, I know), the Rinnegan's ability to see through chakra is an "activated" ability as Pain showed us by detecting the barrier before attacking Konoha. That's the difference between both.

I could give you a link of it, but my computer is too slow, sorry.


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> You have to read carefully my post, Flaming. I said "passive abilities" (okay, I mispelled the word, I know), the Rinnegan's ability to see through chakra is an "activated" ability as Pain showed us by detecting the barrier before attacking Konoha. That's the difference between both.
> 
> I could give you a link of it, but my computer is too slow, sorry.



The dust cloud is made of chakra.  Thus if the sharingan could see through dust cloud, then Kakashi wouldn't have needed his ninja hounds or the sensor in order to locate zabuza in hidden mist. So no, I think the evidence is heavily one-sided that they can't see through dust cloud.

in addition to that, the sharingan's ability to see chakra isn't any more passive than the rinnegan's.  Pain passively saw chakra gathered in tsunade's and anbu's feet, Itachi didn't passively see the real kakashi hidden underground despite looking straight in kakashi's general direction, and Sasuke didn't passively see Obito tunnel beneath him in 639.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 25, 2013)

Either Itachi or Sasuke is capable of taking the victory alone.


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## Magician (Jul 25, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Either Itachi or Sasuke is capable of taking the victory alone.



^lulz

I'm giving it too the Uchiha bro's high diff. Too much hax in their arsenal.


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## Pein (Jul 25, 2013)

Sages take it mid difficulty. Naruto makes a massive clone army and spams rasengan while Jiraiya preps frog song.


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## Trojan (Jul 25, 2013)

it's canon that Jman > Itachi, and it's canon that SM Naruto > MS Sasuke. 

which mean it's obvious who will win.

1-

2- 3

Viz


> Suigetsu: This Naruto fellow defeated Pain all by himself?
> Zetsu: That's right he has become extremely strong...In fact I think he is stronger than Sasuke right now.
> 
> Tobi: Thus even if Sasuke surpasses Nagato, it is completely meaningless if we can't control him. So I have no intention of linking him to the Gedo Statue any time soon. I think it would be wiser to just keep an eye on him.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 25, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 2- 3
> 
> Viz



Sage Naruto was only explicitly stated to be superior to *Taka* Sasuke; that is, encompassing his abilities of Amaterasu, standard Chidori techniques, and Tsukuyomi/Mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu. It does not include Susano'o, which may or may not even the balance between them.

Heck, at that point, Sage Naruto didn't have a full showing of his capabilities; i.e., against Kurama.


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## Trojan (Jul 25, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Sage Naruto was only explicitly stated to be superior to *Taka* Sasuke; that is, encompassing his abilities of Amaterasu, standard Chidori techniques, and Tsukuyomi/Mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu. It does not include Susano'o, which may or may not even the balance between them.
> 
> Heck, at that point, Sage Naruto didn't have a full showing of his capabilities; i.e., against Kurama.



Well, you answered yourself + remember this is also SM Jman
and we all know that the frogs have 2 sound base jutsus. Therefore, Susanoo
is useless here.


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## Okodi (Jul 26, 2013)

A healthy Itachi means that Itachi is alive and well and that Sasuke never killed him. Therefore Sasuke won't have eternal Mangekyo Sharingan and his Susanoo will be very short lived along with his ability to use Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. He will also quickly feel the after effects of them like he did versus Killer B and Danzo since he doesn't have the Eternal version. Jiraiya could actually detect the cameleon, however, Pain could see Jiraiya's barrier and cleverly stayed out of his range[1][2][3]. So Jiraiya can sense through the means of his barrier, though with an inferior range to conventional active sensing or SM sensing. And Shima actually found Pain through smell, not SM sensing [1].

With Jiraiya having knowledge and Naruto having knowledge about Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, and Jiraiya already having sealed away Amaterasu once already [1] (and arguably studied it and come up with a counter) it might actually be dealt with by Jiraiya [2]. You have to take into consideration that Jiraiya created a note that Kakashi could use on Naruto to surpress the Kyuubi [1][2] The Two Elder Sages may have knowledge about the old legends and may be able to know how to deal with things like Susanoo and might even be able to quickly recognise the two artifacts that Itachi's Susanoo carries.

Izanami will not be as effective since Itachi has to prepare each loop carefully and with the Sage users being able to cover for each other, they may actually recover seeing how they are not as single minded as Kabuto and may choose a different outcome in their loop. Using any type of eye hindrance(mist, dust, steam, rubble) will be useless on both sides, though any flashes will be an advantage for the Sages seeing how Jiraiya has his barrier along with Shima's sense of smell and Naruto has his sensing. Sounds can be made by the elders and this time both Uchihas may be attacked at the same time.

When it comes to time, Naruto will be able to utilize his SM for about the same length that Sasuke will be able to use his MS seeing how Sasuke will be forced to use his strongest SM skills and not having EMS. With Naruto's later approach to dealing with Sasuke and Jiraiya by his side, Naruto won't have too much problem taking Sasuke out if necessairy. Obito also claimed that the level that Naruto had reach after defeating Pain was greater than Sasuke's after having gotten MS.

*tl; dr*
The Sages win this since;

They have greater individual strength
Both could rival Nagato _single-handedly_
They can fight without relying on sight 
>(Barrier, Shima's smelling, SM sensing)
>(Visual Genjutsu immunity)
Jiraiya being immune to Genjutsu due to Elders
Jiraiya may be able to actively deal with Amaterasu
SM does not strain their bodies like MS does
Izanami is harder to use when fighting two people
>They can protect each other until it's broken

If Jiraiya can't deal with Amaterasu, things may sway in the Uchihas' favor. But since Sasuke doesn't have EMS, (if Itachi is healthy, Sasuke can't have his eyes meaning no MS) he will lose his ability to see/feel side effects rather quickly, which favors the Sages. The Elders will also help out a great deal with their high level Jutsus and knowledge. Naruto and Sasuke will lose their MS/SM quickly but Naruto will have a serious advantage over Sasuke in that case. And the Izanami loop will broken as long as the Sages can protect each other long enough. Sound bypasses Susanoo and they sages are actually two fighters who can attack both Uchihas at the same time.

Sage win with mid-high difficulty.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 27, 2013)

Naruto isn't launching a frs at Kirin, when he's never even seen the move before, lets not forget the wow factor.


Naruto isn't going to off the bat think oh shyt a giant lightning tiger let me throw a frs at it before it falls.


He froze up against ct and it was his second time seeing it, he will freeze up after seeing Kirin as well


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## Hales (Jul 27, 2013)

itachi can take them both out without sasuke's help you said itachi is healthy. itachi solo'z.


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## ueharakk (Jul 27, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Naruto isn't launching a frs at Kirin, when he's never even seen the move before, lets not forget the wow factor.


doesn't matter, he didn't see susanoo enton kagutsuchi before, yet he knew the elemental affinities were already going to come into play before Sasuke even made the arrow.  He knows half the reason he developed FRS is to counter Sasuke's Raitons.



Bkprince33 said:


> Naruto isn't going to off the bat think oh shyt a giant lightning tiger let me throw a frs at it before it falls.


it doesn't even get to the point since he's going to see sasuke's hand connected to a giant mass of lightning long before the tiger comes out.



Bkprince33 said:


> He froze up against ct and it was his second time seeing it, he will freeze up after seeing Kirin as well


Except he developed FRS to counter kirin,  PIS is off in this match, and the only reason he froze up against CT was because he failed to destroy it before with a stronger attack than FRS.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 28, 2013)

SM Naruto was said to be on par with MS Sasuke. However, SM Naruto has seemingly had some upgrades since being able to use Kyuubi chakra and stay in base as well as use 3 FRSs at a time. So Naruto with extreme difficulty.

Jiraiya against Itachi could go either way but if Itachi edges it out then its an exhausted Naruto against an exhausted Itachi. However, Naruto has Kyuubi chakra to fall back on to rejuvenate him a bit while Itachi can doubtfully even cast another ninjutsu. Probably give it to Sages with extreme difficulty. Might get more specific if asked to or if bored.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> SM Naruto was said to be on par with MS Sasuke



Wasn't this before Sasuke actually showed any Mangekyō jutsu though?


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 28, 2013)

Post Danzou fight is what I am referring to. When Naruto said if they fought at full power, they would both die. So yeah he had the Mangekyou then.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Wasn't this before Sasuke actually showed any Mangekyō jutsu though?



Before, Zetsu said Naruto was probably stronger.

After, Naruto admitted they'd probably both kill each other.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> After, Naruto admitted they'd probably both kill each other.







These were statements made at the time, not hypotheticals about future battles. This is one of those situations where the author's view may be skewed form fans' approximations.

Similar to how, according to Minato, BM Naruto is "keeping up" with Sasuke-kun alright. On the other hand, part one Jiraiya could take on all of Akatsuki and force a stalemate.

​


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Read the whole Manga bro. 

_Naruto says to Sasuke it directly._

Now, we know Naruto doesn't want Sasuke to die. So when all his friends pressure him and demand to know why he didn't beat down a blind Sasuke who could barely stand after his fights.....well _he came up with that_. 

Sakura even realized he_ wasn't telling the whole truth_, remembering what he had said.

I'm guessing Naruto though he would need KCM to defeat EMS Sasuke. Current Sasuke was blind, and Neji and Shikamaru aren't stupid. They knew what was up.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Like I said before, my scans address the current situation. That statement addresses a hypothetical future situation, a situation which Naruto pointblank said he needed Kurama's chakra to handle.​


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Like I said before, my scans address the current situation. That statement addresses a hypothetical future situation, a situation which Naruto pointblank said he needed Kurama's chakra to handle.​



You think the reason a fresh Sage Naruto didn't kill blind Sasuke at the bridge was because he was too weak?

lol



> Similar to how, according to Minato, BM Naruto is "keeping up" with Sasuke-kun alright.



It's RM Naruto keeping up with EMS Sasuke. Bijuu Mode is about a tier ahead of RM Naruto. Another layer of armor on Sasuke's Susano'o doesn't grant the same boost.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

No, it's BM Naruto, because KCM Naruto doesn't have a popped collar. 

Le sigh.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, it's BM Naruto, because KCM Naruto doesn't have a popped collar.
> 
> Le sigh.



Well. . .

His collar has been unzipped, unlike before


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## Negrito (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, it's BM Naruto, because KCM Naruto doesn't have a popped collar.
> 
> Le sigh.



Naruto's jacket is unzipped at the top.

Le sigh. 

Ninja'd.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Mother. Fuckers. +reps for making me look like a dick for the fourth time today.

Brb, gonna' relieve frustration with nurse Itachi's help.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, it's BM Naruto, because KCM Naruto doesn't have a popped collar.
> 
> Le sigh.



His _jacket broke _buddy.

Hey looked, popped collar, yet _no cloak_.  

That's RM Naruto, and his feats are consistent with that.

I got ninjad twice. Wat.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

For the fifth* time today. 

Damn you, Naruto, and your sexy, sexy clothing malfunction.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Strat has conceded all points.


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## Bonly (Jul 28, 2013)

Strat has conceded all points.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Strat has conceded all points.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

Oh no      .


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2013)

Individualism is overrated.

*Edit:* But given my debating style, this avatar fits best.

I have a fifth sense.


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## Bonly (Jul 28, 2013)

Oh Yeah!**


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 28, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> These were statements made at the time, not hypotheticals about future battles. This is one of those situations where the author's view may be skewed form fans' approximations.
> 
> Similar to how, according to Minato, BM Naruto is "keeping up" with Sasuke-kun alright. On the other hand, part one Jiraiya could take on all of Akatsuki and force a stalemate.
> 
> ​


Look at what Rocky said. Sasuke had borderline no chakra and Naruto was practically fresh. The guy was coughing blood for goodness sake. He was saying it to save face for his crew.

Also note something. Naruto is saying he can't beat him. This is very simple. If he is referring to Sasuke in a healthy condition, then obviously it doesn't contradict. Naruto told Sasuke directly that they are equals and would kill each other. If Naruto has a draw with Sasuke, Naruto did not win. It is a draw. Naruto would fail to beat him if they both died. If we take that statement to mean them both at full power, then it doesn't contradict. Naruto saying he can not beat Sasuke just falls in line with what we already knew: Naruto and Sasuke would die fighting each other.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 28, 2013)

Quick, give me a valid reason why Sage Naruto or Sage Jiraiya survive the opening act of this bout? Because the reality regarding the match up is Tsukuyomi/Enton Kagutsuchi, Amaterasu, and Susano are the only three options in which a MANGEKYO Itachi and Sasuke have access too. Options in which they've shown to pull out very, very quickly. Options in which neither SM Naruto or Jiraiya have a sure counter to.

People want to link quotes to validate their case, but they aren't linking the right ones. "If he hits you with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu you're finished" ,and Naruto's counter to either of those wasn't gained until he had access to to the Kyuubi's chakara.

Naruto and Jiraiya would have to start a sizable distance from their opponent, and they'd need to maintain such a distance throughout the battle. FROG SONG, would be preferable to any "WEAR THEM OUT STRATEGY" ,as again they don't have the luxury of playing with "Fire" as a certain Kabuto did.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Options in which they've shown to pull out very, very quickly. Options in which neither SM Naruto or Jiraiya have a sure counter to.



500 Sage Narutos in the way should do the trick. Sasuke can attack how many at once? Twelve?


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## αce (Jul 28, 2013)

Don't you guys know? According to Itachi, Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame and Itachi combined and any reinforcements they could bring. He solo's.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 28, 2013)

αce said:


> According to Itachi, Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame and Itachi combined and any reinforcements they could bring. He solo's.



Sasuke > Kisame.

Their reinforcements could have been those fodder used for Shoten Itachi and Kisame for all we know.

Statement inapplicable.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> 500 Sage Narutos in the way should do the trick. Sasuke can attack how many at once? Twelve?



500 doesn't seem like a number he could reach before either Sasuke or Itachi "Takes his picture" (That's how efficiently fast Tsukyomi and Amaterasu work)

And 500 SM Naruto's has never occupied a single panel or arc within the manga. Impossible feats, for an impossible battle, right?


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

:sanji

He creates _over 1000_ clones before he graduates from the academy. 

You say he cannot create 500 as a Perfect Sage.

:sanji


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> :sanji
> 
> He creates _over 1000_ clones before he graduates from the academy.
> 
> ...



He hasn't and never will.

How many times must Kishi showcase how Naruto's shadow clone work?

The higher level stages require more chakara, more chakara than 1/500 of Naruto's chakara could support.(Hence is why his clone usage never supersedes 12 when he is utilizing his more powerful forms)

Naruto's clone usage with SM is a whopping two.(Before gaining access to Kurama's chakara) Naruto producing 12 KM clones was a spectacular feat, but one that isn't concrete without Kurami's cooperation.(Kurama withheld feeding on Naruto's chakara, allowing him to do more than what he should be normally capable of)


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 28, 2013)

For those saying Sage Naruto can only use a few clones, I bring you this glorious thread by yours truly.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The higher level stages require more chakara, more chakara than 1/500 of Naruto's chakara could support.(Hence is why his clone usage never supersedes 12 when he is utilizing his more powerful forms).



What the..?

Was this ever stated, or is it coming from your butt butt. 

Seriously though, you don't know what a Shadow Clone is. Naruto's Chakra cap in Sage Mode & KCM are higher than his Base form, not lower. Sage Clones & KCM clones don't cost more Chakra....clones cost is based on division of the user's total capacity.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Bijuu Mode Naruto has the capacity to blow up an island, yet lacks the capacity to do something Chapter 1 Naruto did. 

The reason why Naruto's clone usage didn't exceed 12 in KCM was due Kurama, as the Manga went over a million times. He couldn't make anymore in fear of his life.

Naruto was limited to three in Sage Mode because making anymore would've disrupted the ones at Toad Mountain, which Naruto told us at the beginning of the battle.

When he didn't have that limitation against Kurama, he clone spammed the mess out of it.


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What the..?
> 
> Was this ever stated, or is it coming from your butt butt.
> 
> ...



actually, I have to partially disagree with this.  

Sage clones are created by pure chakra quality, in otherwords, they are merely a base clone who's chakra consists of sage chakra.  And we see that this is pretty much has to be true as one of the *hundreds of base clones Naruto creates here* (which means it has at most 1/100th of naruto's base chakra) becomes a sage clone once it converts its *base chakra into sage chakra.*

However KCM is different.  There is a certain level of KCM that has to be met in order for the clone to sustain the cloak.  If there is less chakra than what is required, *we see the clone (and even the original) is not capable of sustaining the cloak and thus is not a KCM clone.*  Another way to tell that the KCM clones cost way more chakra is that they are able to use things like FRS and bijuurasengan while base naruto without his chakra split would probably be hard pressed to generate that much chakra.

Finally, even with kurama's cooperation, *it's still implied that BM clones have a ton of chakra put into them.*


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 29, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Quick, give me a valid reason why Sage Naruto or Sage Jiraiya survive the opening act of this bout? Because the reality regarding the match up is Tsukuyomi/Enton Kagutsuchi, Amaterasu, and Susano are the only three options in which a MANGEKYO Itachi and Sasuke have access too. Options in which they've shown to pull out very, very quickly. Options in which neither SM Naruto or Jiraiya have a sure counter to.


Again perfect example of a typical Sasuke fan. Represents Sasuke himself. Sasuke always thinks he is SOOOOO far ahead of Naruto even when things said contradict him. Same scenario. Yet me the Naruto fan here does not think Naruto is faaaaar ahead of Sasuke here. I think they are evenly matched. Why do so many Sasuke fans feel the absolute need to have their favorite character just be SOOOOOO much stronger than his eternal rival? It's beyond me.

None of them start off with amaterasu or tsukiyomi. Itachi used taijutsu, genjutsu reversal, suiton, and kage bunshin before tsukiyomi. He used taijutsu, katons, and genjutsu before using amaterasu. Itachi doesn't start like that. Now then Naruto and Jiraiya know about sharingan genjutsu. So they know to try and avoid eye contact. They also know it works one at a time with them. So Naruto can make Kage Bunshins to counter Tsukiyomi. Naruto can even use sensing the visualizes the target to avoid eye contact. Amaterasu? They both can use Kage bunshin feints. Also Naruto has Kurama to break genjutsu.


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## Raiken (Jul 29, 2013)

Quite an even fight. It's quite hard to say to be honest.
Naruto and Jiraiya's Summonings will help them win, High Difficulty.


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