# Kizaru vs 11 Supernova Rematch



## Magician (Jun 14, 2014)

Kizaru vs Law, Kidd, Killer, Zoro, Luffy, Apoo, Hawkins, X Drake, Urouge, Bonney, and Capone

Can the supernova's win?

Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: Full on both sides
Location: Middle of long ring long land

Scenario 2: Kizaru doesn't have logia intangibility.


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## Luke (Jun 14, 2014)

Supernova's win with medium difficulty. 

And technically Kizaru only fought Hawkins, Apoo, Drake, and Urouge the first time around.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Jun 14, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Kizaru vs Law, Kidd, Killer, Zoro, Luffy, Apoo, Hawkins, X Drake, Urouge, Bonney, and Capone
> 
> Can the supernova's win?
> 
> Scenario 2: Kizaru doesn't have logia intangibility.



Is it in the same situation?

Kizaru will probably get killed by Apoo.


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## Magician (Jun 14, 2014)

Nah, not the same situation. They fight face to face in a standard fight.


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## Esdese (Jun 14, 2014)

is this pre-ts? if so Kizaru stomp


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 14, 2014)

Toss up for S2, but if they need WB Commander level Haki to make Kizaru tangible for S1, the Supernovas don't have a chance.
Screw it. Kizaru takes both scenarios.


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## Lawliet (Jun 14, 2014)

Anyone loses against these 11, post skip versions.


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## Magentabeard (Jun 14, 2014)

Im not sure because of the whole intangibility thing.
I think logias be harmed as long as someone with CoA hits you, but the effectiveness depends on the level of CoA. For example, Vista and Marco sliced Akainu and made him bleed but it was nothing significant.
So the supernovas are all able to harm Kizaru and therefore are NOT non-factors.

Second scenario the supernovas obviously win


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 15, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> For example, Vista and Marco sliced Akainu and made him bleed but it was nothing significant.


Just letting you know that this is utter bullshit.


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Kizaru S1
Team S2


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> For example, Vista and Marco sliced Akainu and made him bleed but it was nothing significant.



That's some nice fanfic you got going on there. They didn't make him bleed, it barely fazed him.

OT:

S1: Kizaru stomps.
S2: Kizaru stomps.


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## blueframe01 (Jun 15, 2014)

Kizaru gets murdered in both scenarios. Luffy, Kid, Drake, Law somewhat future rivals and at this point they are all probably close to Doflas strength (law isn't, but hes in the same ballpark). Add the rest of the SN, in the equation and they should be stronger than any single character IMO.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

The intangibility thing is over-rated. It needs to be consciously activated, therefore it's not about having enough haki to over come his intangibility, but finding an opening to deliver a hacks on him. Even with inability, elemental damage such as fire and lighting should do some damage. Then there's also hacks from Law, Bonnie and Capone to look out for.

Team Mid dif.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

The SN mid diff an Admiral?


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

^ Yep.

Congrad on 1,056 posts. It's like you made 250 posts per day over the last two days.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

You know flies are flies, no matter how many of them there are, right? They can't even injure him in the first scenario, especially if he's BL.

Second scenario he could just fight them from range and take them out like that, pick off the exceptionally weak ones and then blitz the rest. 

Something like that, thanks. Too bad 250 are about to disappear in a couple of days.  Dem chat threads.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Novas ain't flies though. They are the future PK, PK Rival and Yonkou. They are strong, smart and have hacks. I am a big believer that Luffy level haki can interact with an Admiral's real body. I am also a big believe that Admiral level logia defensive is about the same as haki defense compare to other top tiers.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

You're talking about their potential, I'm not. 

They're currently fodder to Admirals, Kizaru is an Admiral.

Kizaru is more hax than all of them.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> You're talking about their potential, I'm not.
> 
> They're currently fodder to Admirals, Kizaru is an Admiral.
> 
> Kizaru is more hax than all of them.



Nope, If I am talking about their potential then an Admiral would get rape 1,000 times over with these guys are full potential.

They are not fodder to any top tier. Mihawk & Ray did not waste two 2 years of their lives so their students can still be fodders to anyone.

The fact that Oda given us the opportunity to see Zoro clashed with an Admiral twice implies that they are no longer fodders to anyone. 

You're still pretty new here. Please don't get brain wash by the propaganda that extreme Admiral supporters have being bombarding this forum. Admirals are strong and amongst the top fighters in OP, but they are not godly god tiers.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

That's some serious SN hype.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Here;s the thing. Dofla is already crazy strong. Sure he was shivering at the thought of Kaido, which basically give crazy hype to Kaido, however against other top tiers such as against Kuzan, he proceed to attack smoker, got out of his ice and walk of with a smile and swagger. Against Fujitora, he got pissed of and kicked Fujitora (implies he's not scared) and currently are confident that him and his crew and kill Fuji after the take care of the dressrosa business. Doflamingo is hella stronger and should be Jozu level or above. I think the majority of this forum believe that he will get taken down by 1 to 2 Novas. If Law + Luffy is enough to take on someone around Jozu level, then multiple that power and intellect 5 folds, I don't see them losing to anyone in this series 11 on 1.


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## 2Broken (Jun 15, 2014)

If all the SN have the same kind of growth Luffy and Law had (which I think they did) then they definitely take down the admiral.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Finally someone with some sense



More like most people need a spanking.


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## Freechoice (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> More like most people need a spanking.



That'll do, pig.

That'll do.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

How exactly does Kizaru stomp all 11 of them? 

Current Luffy and Zoro aren't THAT far off from admiral level. Law and Kidd are both pretty strong in their own right. Then you add on Killer, Drake, Urouge, Hawkins, Bonney, Apoo, and Capone to that. 

I can understand people saying Kizaru wins...but he stomps? No way in hell.


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> How exactly does Kizaru stomp all 11 of them?
> 
> Current Luffy and Zoro* aren't THAT far off from admiral level*. Law and Kidd are both pretty strong in their own right. Then you add on Killer, Drake, Urouge, Hawkins, Bonney, Apoo, and Capone to that.
> 
> I can understand people saying Kizaru wins...but he stomps? No way in hell.


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Nope, If I am talking about their potential then an Admiral would get rape 1,000 times over with these guys are full potential.
> 
> They are not fodder to any top tier. Mihawk & Ray did not waste two 2 years of their lives so their students can still be fodders to anyone.
> 
> ...






The M3 also clashed with Aokiji back in Paradise.
They were totally not fodder back then right?
You know cause clashing with an Admiral implies that they are no longer fodder to anyone.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 15, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Kizaru gets murdered in both scenarios. *Luffy, Kid, Drake, Law somewhat future rivals and at this point they are all probably close to Doflas strength (law isn't, but hes in the same ballpark).* Add the rest of the SN, in the equation and they should be stronger than any single character IMO.


 U wot m8?


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> How exactly does Kizaru stomp all 11 of them?
> 
> *Current Luffy and Zoro aren't THAT far off from admiral level*. Law and Kidd are both pretty strong in their own right. Then you add on Killer, Drake, Urouge, Hawkins, Bonney, Apoo, and Capone to that.
> 
> I can understand people saying Kizaru wins...but he stomps? No way in hell.


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## Canute87 (Jun 15, 2014)

Venom said:


> The M3 also clashed with Aokiji back in Paradise.
> They were totally not fodder back then right?
> You know cause clashing with an Admiral implies that they are no longer fodder to anyone.



Fujitora was forced back though by zoro's attack under the gravity effect,

Zoro blocked an attack aimed at robin and was completely owned by kiji.


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## tanman (Jun 15, 2014)

Kizaru wins scenario one with high difficulty. I'm speculating about the power of some of the Supernovas. But I'm guessing that all of them are stronger than current Franky and have at least basic Haki skills (besides maybe one or two of them).

If that's the case, Kizaru will incur very serious damage as he takes these guys down. With Law running support, Kid, Luffy, and Zoro running offense, and the others running interference, it'll be quite the struggle. Kizaru most likely looses scenario two.


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## Amol (Jun 15, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Novas ain't flies though. They are the future PK, PK Rival and Yonkou. They are strong, smart and have hacks. I am a big believer that Luffy level haki can interact with an Admiral's real body. I am also a big believe that Admiral level logia defensive is about the same as haki defense compare to other top tiers.



Quoted for truth Rep+
This forum has some biggest Top tier wankers i ever saw . Oda made SN to  form alliances to take down Yonkou. Obviously they are going to fight Top-tiers. If they were fodders there wouldn't have been a single point to form alliance. These tier lists are not made by Oda. It is common sense that SN pose threat to Yonkou. If they can beat a Yonkou together I see no reason why they can't beat a single admiral. 
Top-tier vs (X) High Tier = Auto win for Top tier regardless the value of X. This how OPBD behaves. Atleast there are some sensible people like you here.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

I don't see what's so ridiculous about current Luffy being somewhat near admiral level.


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## Canute87 (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> I don't see what's so ridiculous about current Luffy being somewhat near admiral level.



It's rather weird to think that Luffy would reach that level with basic haki training and fighting some monsters especially when the people who he stood absolutely no chance of beating pre-skip is still a great deal weaker than the admirals.

Lucci was NOT a Vice admiral level opponent and Luffy almost killed himself trying to beat him.

Luffy was no match for guys like Jinbei or Magellan who the admirals could spit on.  See the difference in power?


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## Amol (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> OT:
> 
> S1: Kizaru stomps.
> S2: Kizaru stomps.


Top-tier wanking at it's finest.
Didn't I told you in another thread to do research on Word 'stomp' . You use it too casually. Not saying much considering according to you Old Garp can 'no-diff' Jozu and DD together.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> I don't see what's so ridiculous about current Luffy being somewhat near admiral level.



 I've seen Zoro wank, but this Luffy wank right here is megalels.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Amol said:


> Top-tier wanking at it's finest.
> Didn't I told you in another thread to do research on Word 'stomp' . You use it too casually. Not saying much considering according to you Old Garp can 'no-diff' Jozu and DD together.



Sarcasm isn't wasn't on slow people I guess.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 15, 2014)

Trash is trash.

Make this thread again 3 arcs from now. Kizaru one shots them all.


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## Canute87 (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> He has a point though Luffy trained with a living legend for 18 months that coupled with his incredible growth rate should suggest that he's not so far from the Admirals. *Plus he's been incredible Post Ts and he hasn't even gone all out yet his clash with Doffy confirmed he has top tier speed heck it probably rivals Kizaru's speed. *
> 
> Never mind Zoro holding his own against Issho imagine what Luffy all out can do.
> 
> ...



 **


*Spoiler*: __


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> **
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I saw you edit this.  You saw the  in the spoiler tag and realized.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> On a serious note Yasakani No Magatama should wipe out these flies.



OFC, no one can fight him at range and he could just spam that shit.


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## Amol (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> Sarcasm isn't wasn't on slow people I guess.



Then you have shittiest sense of sarcasm.
> Debates seriously for two pages
> when starts loosing makes excuse claiming to be joking.
> Abandoning in mid debate
Concession Accepted .
-------------------------------------------
OT:
Scenario 1:- Logia intangibility will help Kizaru immensely because he will be targeted by 11 people at same time, Around 6 of them are in same ballpark as DD.I consider DD has haki strong enough to touch logia admiral . It can go either way . 60-40% chances for Kizaru I think .
Scenario 2:-
Without logia defence Kizaru will definitely loose . He will put up hell of fight though. High diff for SN.
In any scenario Kizaru will decrease no of SN to more than half.


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> OFC, no one can fight him at range and he could just spam that shit.



 Just remembered Zoro's BH imbued air slashes can compete with it


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## Canute87 (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> I saw you edit this.  You saw the  in the spoiler tag and realized.




nah I accidentally placed the spoiler in the UM tag.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Amol said:


> Then you have shittiest sense of sarcasm.
> > Debates seriously for two pages
> > when starts loosing makes excuse claiming to be joking.
> > Abandoning in mid debate
> ...



What are you even talking about?

Did you just forget Kizaru could fly and never get close to the SHP? You're acting as if he's going to fight them on their terms... 

They have no way of tagging him and unless they dig a hole in the ground they have no way of avoiding being attack by them. We've seen Admirals have 10 days of endurance in them, Kizaru could just exhaust them if they tr to run from him. 

You guys who think Kizaru gets high diffed+ really don't think things through.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Just remembered Zoro's BH imbued air slashes can compete with it



LOL, Kizaru could tank those just for shits and giggles.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

Amol said:


> Then you have shittiest sense of sarcasm.
> > Debates seriously for two pages
> > when starts loosing makes excuse claiming to be joking.
> > Abandoning in mid debate
> ...



Same old Same old thing he did with me tsk tsk


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> 1) None of them have shown to be as strong as Doffy
> 2) Prove that Doffy's BH is good enough to make one of the logia trio tangible or GTFO



Like I said, the guys that are saying anything high+ really don't know what they're talking about. They couldn't even injure him in the first scenario (his KH and BH are far superior, give him a serious mindset and he blitzes all of them [potentially not Luffy but would still put Luffy down easily]) and in the second scenario, he could just fight them at a distance and not have to worry about anything as he still has all of his mobility and even if they were to attack him, it's not like he doesn't have Haki or anything. Law's virtually useless against anyone like Kizaru (both faster and better BH) and the only one with speed fast enough to not get blitzed is Luffy. It's not like Luffy can put in enough damage to take him to mid though.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 15, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Trash is trash.
> 
> Make this thread again 3 arcs from now. Kizaru one shots them all.



_3 arcs from now the argument should probably be made for a single "elite" supernova vs an admiral. We had 6 arcs before the time skip and we're already going through the second arc after the time skip.

I'm undecided when it comes to the gap between current Luffy and an Admiral so it's hard to make a call here with the limited info we have on the other supernova's as well. Any outcome is possible depending on their abilities, growth and team work potential. 
_


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## Coruscation (Jun 15, 2014)

Arcs =/= sagas. There were like 20 preskip arcs and this is the 3rd post-skip one.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 15, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Arcs =/= sagas. There were like 20 preskip arcs and this is the 3rd post-skip one.


_
Oh, the small one's are almost irrelevant in terms of strength growth though so i would not mention them when trying to gauge that. I meant the sagas, are we not going through the second post time skip one ?_


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> Oh, the small one's are almost irrelevant in terms of strength growth though so i would not mention them when trying to gauge that. I meant the sagas, are we not going through the second post time skip one ?_



Technically, I suppose the FI Saga counts.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> I've seen Zoro wank, but this Luffy wank right here is megalels.



Sorry if this came off as wanking.  

Anyway, some of my reasoning: 

-Rayleigh trained him for two years to prevent what happened at Archipelago from happening again. This has to mean that Luffy got significantly stronger. 

-Luffy's been set up to fight Doflamingo at the end of this arc, who I imagine to be around Admiral level. 

And again, I do NOT think that Luffy is admiral level, I just think that he''s getting near that area of power.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> He has a point though Luffy trained with a living legend for 18 months that coupled with his incredible growth rate should suggest that he's not so far from the Admirals. Plus he's been incredible Post Ts and he hasn't even gone all out yet his clash with Doffy confirmed he has top tier speed heck it probably rivals Kizaru's speed.
> 
> Never mind Zoro holding his own against Issho imagine what Luffy all out can do.
> 
> ...



God damn am I getting absolutely ripped apart for this  

And I never said any of that.


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> Like I said, the guys that are saying anything high+ really don't know what they're talking about. They couldn't even injure him in the first scenario (his KH and BH are far superior, give him a serious mindset and he blitzes all of them [potentially not Luffy but would still put Luffy down easily]) and in the second scenario, he could just fight them at a distance and not have to worry about anything as he still has all of his mobility and even if they were to attack him, it's not like he doesn't have Haki or anything. Law's virtually useless against anyone like Kizaru (both faster and better BH) and the only one with speed fast enough to not get blitzed is Luffy. It's not like Luffy can put in enough damage to take him to mid though.


- Pre-skip Luffy survived or dodged multiple suggestively fatal attacks from top-tier fighters during the war
- Post-skip Law survived an otherwise deadly confrontation with Fujitora and Doflamingo, saved people in the process
- Pre-skip Hawkins,Urouge, Apoo, and X-Drake survives a Kizaru with intent-to-kill
- Post-skip Zoro was still in good health after multiple Fujitora confrontations
- Post-skip Kidd takes out 2 of Big Mom's ships
- Post-skip supernova and weaker characters are literally _one-shotting_* vice admirals*
- Many supernova have CoA to deal with intangibility

- You genuinely believe that the 11 of them can't slow down Kizaru in any possible way
- You think Kizaru will just avoid 11 attacks all at the same time 
- You suggest that *post-skip forms* of all these characters can not put together a subpar strategy to take him mid-diff when we have *smaller alliances trying to take out a yonko* (I won't bother mentioning that these smaller alliances also have to deal with a yonko crew at the same time)

I am extremely appalled.

If you truly think that Kizaru can stomp the entire alliance, please re-read One Piece starting from post-skip. This is an extremely unhealthy perspective regarding an admiral because your idea of power scales in this manga has become completely irrational.

As for my opinion? Replace featless post-skip nova with pre-skip forms that have feats, allow them enough time for a *plan*, and you'd get Supernova low diff.


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> God damn am I getting absolutely ripped apart for this
> 
> And I never said any of that.



It's obvious I wasn't been serious that's why no one said anything. I've already stated Kizaru destroys them in both scenarios.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> It's obvious I wasn't been serious that's why no one said anything. I've already stated Kizaru destroys them in both scenarios.



And that's what I'm disagreeing with. 

How exactly does Kizaru manage to *destroy *all 11 of them? Like I said, I perfectly understand Kizaru winning, but stomping them easily? Just...how?


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Sorry if this came off as wanking.
> 
> Anyway, some of my reasoning:
> 
> ...



Well for your first point, that seems to be too convenient of an excuse to hype Luffy and Zoro. I'm not saying you are or anything, but people use that as a reason why they don't get stomped by top tiers and that's just not the case. I think that they're probably quite a bit stronger than what we've seen, but if DD vs. Sanji is indicative of how the M3 compare to DD... It's not looking good. I also don't think DD is as close to the Admirals as some make it seem. He's definitely one of the strongest high tiers, but until we get feats I don't think that's necessarily valid, at least this is just my opinion on the DD matter, I could be wrong.

It's cool man.


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## Luke (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> Well for your first point, that seems to be too convenient of an excuse to hype Luffy and Zoro. I'm not saying you are or anything, but people use that as a reason why they don't get stomped by top tiers and that's just not the case. I think that they're probably quite a bit stronger than what we've seen, but if DD vs. Sanji is indicative of how the M3 compare to DD... It's not looking good. I also don't think DD is as close to the Admirals as some make it seem. He's definitely one of the strongest high tiers, but until we get feats I don't think that's necessarily valid, at least this is just my opinion on the DD matter, I could be wrong.



Personally I think Zoro and Luffy are significantly stronger than Sanji is at this point. 

And honestly I know it's been said before but the main thing Doflamingo's got going for him in comparison to the admiral's is him shrugging off Kuzan's attack from behind and then his "no fucks given" attitude at Marineford.


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Sorry if this came off as wanking.
> 
> Anyway, some of my reasoning:





> -Rayleigh trained him for two years to prevent what happened at Archipelago from happening again. This has to mean that Luffy got significantly stronger


. 

Which is true but that doesn't automatically place him close to the Admirals who have way more exprience and a much much better mastery of Haki.



> -Luffy's been set up to fight Doflamingo at the end of this arc, who I imagine to be around Admiral level.



Doflamingo isn't around Admiral level at all he gets mid low diffed at best. We're talking about people who were capable of holding their own against WB, and changing the climate of an island. 



> And again, I do NOT think that Luffy is admiral level, I just think that he''s getting near that area of power.



He's still a long way away from that level of power heck from what we currently know Doffy is too much to handle.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> And that's what I'm disagreeing with.
> 
> How exactly does Kizaru manage to *destroy *all 11 of them? Like I said, I perfectly understand Kizaru winning, but stomping them easily? Just...how?



It's because Kizaru's damage output exceeds the durability feats we've seen from the SN. By nature of him being an Admiral he scales to island-level+ feats (he's stronger than DCJ) whereas the SN only scale at max to town+ ish (Luffy a bit higher if we're talking about blunt damage) so he should easily one-shot all of them

In addition to him having higher DC than they have durability, he's faster than all of them and has better Haki meaning they can't even injure him in the first scenario (I'd like to remind you and everyone else who thinks they can even scratch him in the first scenario that Marco and Vista who have significantly better Haki than the SNs couldn't even scratch Akainu when he tanked their attacks).

This also applies to him in the second scenario, he'd just have to be more wary of their attacks and make sure he's blocking them which is no problem since he can blitz almost all of them (I'll give Luffy the BoD because of his exceptional speed and Law the benefit of the doubt because of Shambles) but even if he takes out the other 9, Luffy and Law can't really put in that much damage and Room is useless against Kizaru if he's trying to beat him via hax.


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> And that's what I'm disagreeing with.
> 
> How exactly does Kizaru manage to *destroy *all 11 of them? Like I said, I perfectly understand Kizaru winning, but stomping them easily? Just...how?



None of them have shown the necessary Haki to make him tangible for the first scenario and for the second he rains down Yasakani no Magatama which kills them all.


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## tanman (Jun 15, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Trash is trash.
> 
> Make this thread again 3 arcs from now. Kizaru one shots them all.



Looking at it from that perspective, an apt comparison would be Alabasta Luffy to Moriah, right? It's pretty hard to imagine Moriah one-shotting eleven Luffies.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Personally I think Zoro and Luffy are significantly stronger than Sanji is at this point.
> 
> And honestly I know it's been said before but the main thing Doflamingo's got going for him in comparison to the admiral's is him shrugging off Kuzan's attack from behind and then his "no fucks given" attitude at Marineford.



I do as well, but it shouldn't be by too much.

He didn't shrug it off, he almost died. I think the way he reacted to Kuzan following their confrontation was him being a bit pretentious. Same with him kicking Fujitora. He knew Fujitora wasn't going to do anything to him.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

tanman said:


> Looking at it from that perspective, an apt comparison would be Alabasta Luffy to Moriah, right? It's pretty hard to imagine Moriah one-shotting eleven Luffies.



It's not even remotely similar and he *DID* almost wipe out the SHP so there's that.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> - Pre-skip Luffy survived or dodged multiple suggestively fatal attacks from top-tier fighters during the war
> - Post-skip Law survived an otherwise deadly confrontation with Fujitora and Doflamingo, saved people in the process
> - Pre-skip Hawkins,Urouge, Apoo, and X-Drake survives a Kizaru with intent-to-kill
> - Post-skip Zoro was still in good health after multiple Fujitora confrontations
> ...




Agreed. It's very disturbing to see people wank Kizaru so highly. I mean these incarnation of the supernovas are after the time skip, which means they're not as weak as they used to be like in the Pre time skip. They've got haxxed abilities and a lot of firepower to take down the admiral. You pretty much summed it up perfectly.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

I meant "Not" my bad


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 15, 2014)

tanman said:


> Looking at it from that perspective, an apt comparison would be Alabasta Luffy to Moriah, right? It's pretty hard to imagine Moriah one-shotting eleven Luffies.



Moriah can easily put a big hole through luffys stomach like he did agasint Oars Jr aka one shot him.

Although just so their is no confusion when I say one shot I dont mean the first move kizaru does kills all the supernovas at once.


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

When we get a clearer picture of what they can all do I'll change my stance a bit.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> When we get a clearer picture of what they can all do I'll change my stance a bit.



You mean for the second scenario, right?


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## Ruse (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> You mean for the second scenario, right?



Yes although I still think Kizaru wins both just the difficulty.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Yes although I still think Kizaru wins both just the difficulty.



Okay just making sure.  

The only real factors in this from what we've seen so far are SN 3 + Drake. Urouge seems sluggish, I'm not really sure what Basil has in terms of offensive abilites, I need more feats from Apoo (pls Oda), Bonney is fast but yeah... IDK about Zoro and Killer.


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> <Post that isn't about replying to me and continues to push agenda>


Concession accepted.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Concession accepted.



Please L2Read, it might do you some good in the future.


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> None of them have shown the necessary Haki to make him tangible for the first scenario and for the second he rains down Yasakani no Magatama which kills them all.


This will probably blow your mind, but there is _*nothing *_in the manga, not even a panel, that scales post-skip CoA to pre-skip CoA from top-tier war fighters, so it is a complete stalemate in fights and shouldn't ever be used to argue for a fighter like an admiral, especially when they haven't even shown hardening.


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> Please L2Read, it might do you some good in the future.


You didn't reply to me. Regardless, you keep pushing uncited shit about how:

- Kizaru has a combined greater damage output
- Kizaru has better speed
- Kizaru has better haki

Cite all of it in correlation to at least one post-skip fighter.


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## GIORNO (Jun 15, 2014)

.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> You didn't reply to me. Regardless, you keep pushing uncited shit about how:
> 
> - Kizaru has a combined greater damage output
> - Kizaru has better speed
> ...



I can't lie, but Kizaru does have better speed and haki than them. Combined greater damage output goes to the supernovas though. Speed shouldn't really be arguable when we know he is made out of the fastest thing known to man  as for haki? Shouldn't his haki be equal to Akainu's whose haki had withstood the combined blow from marco and vista?


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> I can't lie, but Kizaru does have better speed and haki than them. Combined greater damage output goes to the supernovas though. Speed shouldn't really be arguable when we know he is made out of the fastest thing known to man  as for haki? Shouldn't his haki be equal to Akainu's whose haki had withstood the combined blow from marco and vista?


Kizaru is still human in One Piece. Just because he can supposedly travel light speed doesn't mean anything substantial. Someone can still be faster than him. Someone can still react faster than him. If you can become strong enough to break a giant boulder with your bare fist in this world, you can train to run/react faster than light according to OP physics.

The bottom line for speed is that there is still no feat that Kizaru is faster than any post-skip fighter. Likewise, post-skip fighters have no feat to scale them to Kizaru's speed. Therefore, we do the logical thing and keep it out of the fucking debate.

Haki is just as meaningless as speed. There's no scale between pre-skip fighters and post-skip. There is major ambiguity as well, as far as hardening goes.

So, now we're down to damage output and the answer couldn't be clearer.





нιѕσкα said:


> .


Hopefully you can find those citations by the time you're mature enough to participate in this debate again.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Venom said:


> The M3 also clashed with Aokiji back in Paradise.
> They were totally not fodder back then right?
> You know cause clashing with an Admiral implies that they are no longer fodder to anyone.



If I remember correctly, you're also an Zoro fan. And I find you being a Zoro fan very hard to believe when you went out of your want to take things from the manga out of context to directly down play him. If fine to believe Admirals are top tier, but it's a different thing to not give credit to high tiers when credit is deserved.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

BTW, Kizau's laser spam missed Law's sub, despite a big target. Who was driving that Sub again, btw?


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> If I remember correctly, you're also an Zoro fan. And I find you being a Zoro fan very hard to believe when you went out of your want to take things from the manga out of context to directly down play him. If fine to believe Admirals are top tier, but it's a different thing to not give credit to high tiers when credit is deserved.



Yeah I am definitely the one who is taking things from the manga out of the context and not you 

Zoro is my fav character.
But I won't claim things which are not true just so he looks better as this wouldn't be supporting him but is rather going to have the opposite effect.

And about which "High Tiers" are you even talking about?
I don't care about any tiers.
Fuck tiers.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Kizaru is still human in One Piece. Just because he can supposedly travel light speed doesn't mean anything substantial. Someone can still be faster than him. Someone can still react faster than him. If you can become strong enough to break a giant boulder with your bare fist in this world, you can train to run/react faster than light according to OP physics.
> 
> The bottom line for speed is that there is still no feat that Kizaru is faster than any post-skip fighter. Likewise, post-skip fighters have no feat to scale them to Kizaru's speed. Therefore, we do the logical thing and keep it out of the fucking debate.
> 
> ...



You completely missed the whole point and are going against Oda's words by imposing your superiority and fanfiction over what Oda intended to portray for his manga. Kizaru is the fastest character in the verse, pre time skip and time skip. His fight against Zephyr, an ex admiral, seems to repudiate any contentions you've made as to him not being the fastest which you did not seem to think twice about. His fight against the pre time skip Sn11 in an arc wherein he only showed a partial amount of his power yet had still managed to blitz them speaks for the speed he carries that is above any other characters in the series. 


Your argument is essentially advocating for the meaningless opinion you made that the pre time skip supernovas have gotten stronger over the spawn of 2 years and are now capable of replicating the same feat as Kizaru himself, which is basically saying that they're admiral level in the aspect of Speed and Haki. None of them can defeat an admiral individually and surely that would mean that their individual speed aren't good enough to be spoken in the same breath as Kizaru's speed. As for their haki? Haki seems to be a little different than the concept of speed. Just about anyone can boost their haki skills and overcome the haki of another person who had more experience than you and better Haki before you had learned it. Just like Vergo and Law. The latter had no haki in the Pts, whereas the former had haki in the pts by virtue of his vice admiral rank which necessitates anyone willing to become a vice admiral to have haki. Law, in just two years, learn the skill of Haki and had overcame Vergo's haki. 

Kizaru is the pinnacle of speed. Hence "lightspeed" You cannot ignore physics in the one piece world because, as much as it tends to differ with the concepts in our world, there is nothing in the one piece world faster than Light, unless proven otherwise. Kizaru being human is literally bullshit. We have tons of characters much weaker than Kizaru who had dodged bullets in the pre time skip, and guess what, Kizaru is a substantial amount faster than them. Kizaru is the embodiment of Light itself. It's arguable as to whether he can move at the speed of light, but his ability to move at such speeds goes beyond measures, something no one can replicate in doing. No, I really did not understand anything you wrote in this post. Kizaru is not just human, he is above human, as are most one piece characters who've transcended the human limits by being above humans with their monstrous feats. Simply put, when you have someone weaker than Kizaru who was using Geppo under water 3000 meters below sea, this tells you that they've detracted themselves away from the human limit by transcending the average human limits.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Venom said:


> Yeah I am definitely the one who is taking things from the manga out of the context and not you
> 
> Zoro is my fav character.
> But I won't claim things which are not true just so he looks better as this wouldn't be supporting him but is rather going to have the opposite effect.
> ...



In context, I said Zoro clashed with Fuji twice and those encounters proves that he's not a fodder to a top tier. How is that not true or stretching anything? I never claimed that Zoro could win or give Fuji high diff, did I? You counter that by posted panels of Zoro looking bad, but did not post the panels where by he counter and come out still standing and currently showing zero signs of being significantly inured.

Some times I do downplay Admirals either for trolling reasons or just simply pissed off with the Admiral wanking on this forum, but I am certainly not doing so in this thread.


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## PanicPlease (Jun 15, 2014)

Assuming they all have strong enough haki to actually damage Kizaru, I can see them take it with extreme difficulty. But Kizaru could also win with extreme difficulty. It's a toss up at this point. I think we'll have a better idea about their chances once we see Luffy vs. Doffy.


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## Lawliet (Jun 15, 2014)

Zoro showed he is not a fodder to an admiral, as in he can at least put up a fight now not win one or push one far.


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> In context, I said Zoro clashed with Fuji twice and those encounters proves that he's not a fodder to a top tier. How is that not true or stretching anything? I never claimed that Zoro could win or give Fuji high diff, did I? You counter that by posted panels of Zoro looking bad, but did not post the panels where by he counter and come out still standing and currently showing *zero signs of being significantly inured.*
> 
> Some times I do downplay Admirals either for trolling reasons or just simply pissed off with the Admiral wanking on this forum, but I am certainly not doing so in this thread.



Obviously.
Fujitora showed zero signs of using any strong attacks to stop Zoro.
That was my point. Not that Zoro actually looks bad.
If the fight continued a few more seconds if Fuji was actually serious Zoro would be dead by now.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 15, 2014)

Venom said:


> Obviously.
> Fujitora showed zero signs of using any strong attacks to stop Zoro.
> That was my point. Not that Zoro actually looks bad.
> If the fight continued a few more seconds if Fuji was actually serious Zoro would be dead by now.



Nah it was Fujitora who the marines were worried about. The tables were clearly turning as Zoro got serious. Fujitora might've been killed if the fight kept going on.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Nah it was Fujitora who the marines were worried about. The tables were clearly turning as Zoro got serious. Fujitora might've been killed if the fight kept going on.



Fujitora would have curmstomped him had they continued fighting.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

Venom said:


> Obviously.
> Fujitora showed zero signs of using any strong attacks to stop Zoro.
> That was my point. Not that Zoro actually looks bad.
> *If the fight continued a few more seconds if Fuji was actually serious Zoro would be dead by now.*


That is already canonically not true, as Oda saw how people downplayed Zoro so much despite of the first clash, Oda decided to let them clashed again more more than "a few more seconds", and he still came out fine.


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## Shanks (Jun 15, 2014)

If Zoro and Fuji went all out in a 1 v 1, Fuji should win mid dif. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## NO (Jun 15, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> You completely missed the whole point and are going against Oda's words by imposing your superiority and fanfiction over what Oda intended to portray for his manga. Kizaru is the fastest character in the verse, pre time skip and time skip. His fight against Zephyr, an ex admiral, seems to repudiate any contentions you've made as to him not being the fastest which you did not seem to think twice about. His fight against the pre time skip Sn11 in an arc wherein he only showed a partial amount of his power yet had still managed to blitz them speaks for the speed he carries that is above any other characters in the series.
> 
> 
> Your argument is essentially advocating for the meaningless opinion you made that the pre time skip supernovas have gotten stronger over the spawn of 2 years and are now capable of replicating the same feat as Kizaru himself, which is basically saying that they're admiral level in the aspect of Speed and Haki. None of them can defeat an admiral individually and surely that would mean that their individual speed aren't good enough to be spoken in the same breath as Kizaru's speed. As for their haki? Haki seems to be a little different than the concept of speed. Just about anyone can boost their haki skills and overcome the haki of another person who had more experience than you and better Haki before you had learned it. Just like Vergo and Law. The latter had no haki in the Pts, whereas the former had haki in the pts by virtue of his vice admiral rank which necessitates anyone willing to become a vice admiral to have haki. Law, in just two years, learn the skill of Haki and had overcame Vergo's haki.
> ...


Not only were you being slightly hostile and very passive aggressive, but you labeled my posts with terms I have absolutely no business with.  I used no fanfiction or opinion to describe Kizaru or any of the supernova. If you expect me to reply again, have the same I respect I had for you and avoid the lying to make your post seem like it was belittling someone with stage 5 dementia. The fact that you have to get this flustered about me to get any of these points across is so unfortunate.

- Zephyr is completely irrelevant to Kizaru's speed in correlation with a post-skip supernova.
- Kizaru being faster than pre-skip SN is still irrelevant.
- The supernova did get stronger over the timeskip, period. How strong in correlation to Kizaru? Absolutely no one knows because we have not seen them go all out! I did not say any (or all of them) were admiral level (whatever that means). I simply give the benefit of the doubt, a concept you should look up on wikipedia. Instead of jumping to conclusions, how about you do like I do and wait for the facts?
- You added to my argument that the potential for SN to improve haki is very much there over the TS, but that's not what I was trying to say. I said there is nothing we can do to scale haki between post-skip fighters and pre-skip fighters, therefore we can not determine who has better haki: Kizaru or the post-skip SN.
- And here we go with the speed crap again. This is the last time I'm going over this. Speed can be improved to Kizaru's extent. By your logic, Kizaru is invincible because with his speed nothing will ever scathe him. This is wrong because we know Kizaru has rivals in the OP world. If these rivals are not faster than him, then they simply can not beat him. This is why I keep telling you, it's very possible for OP characters to surpass his speed, especially SN. 
- You made it sound like I was downplaying Kizaru. I wasn't talking about real humans, I was talking about OP humans. The humans that don't need DFs to be at the top of the world (Roger, Garp). The humans that can destroy entire continents with their heads (Chinjao). This is what I'm talking about. Kizaru may have a DF, but his opponents still have human potential. His opponents can still very well become the strongest and fastest. And that is exactly why you should have the benefit of the doubt for post-skip SN. Because these aren't ordinary people. They are the worst rookie pirate generation that has caused an excelling amount of trouble for the marines.


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## Venom (Jun 15, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> You completely missed the whole point and are going against Oda's words by imposing your superiority and fanfiction over what Oda intended to portray for his manga. Kizaru is the fastest character in the verse, pre time skip and time skip. His fight against Zephyr, an ex admiral, seems to repudiate any contentions you've made as to him not being the fastest which you did not seem to think twice about. His fight against the pre time skip Sn11 in an arc wherein he only showed a partial amount of his power yet had still managed to blitz them speaks for the speed he carries that is above any other characters in the series.
> 
> 
> Your argument is essentially advocating for the meaningless opinion you made that the pre time skip supernovas have gotten stronger over the spawn of 2 years and are now capable of replicating the same feat as Kizaru himself, which is basically saying that they're admiral level in the aspect of Speed and Haki. None of them can defeat an admiral individually and surely that would mean that their individual speed aren't good enough to be spoken in the same breath as Kizaru's speed. As for their haki? Haki seems to be a little different than the concept of speed. Just about anyone can boost their haki skills and overcome the haki of another person who had more experience than you and better Haki before you had learned it. Just like Vergo and Law. The latter had no haki in the Pts, whereas the former had haki in the pts by virtue of his vice admiral rank which necessitates anyone willing to become a vice admiral to have haki. Law, in just two years, learn the skill of Haki and had overcame Vergo's haki.
> ...





jayjay32 said:


> Not only were you being slightly hostile and very passive aggressive, but you labeled my posts with terms I have absolutely no business with.  I used no fanfiction or opinion to describe Kizaru or any of the supernova. If you expect me to reply again, have the same I respect I had for you and avoid the lying to make your post seem like it was belittling someone with stage 5 dementia. The fact that you have to get this flustered about me to get any of these points across is so unfortunate.
> 
> - Zephyr is completely irrelevant to Kizaru's speed in correlation with a post-skip supernova.
> - Kizaru being faster than pre-skip SN is still irrelevant.
> ...



Too long




Admiral Aokiji said:


> If Zoro and Fuji went all out in a 1 v 1, Fuji should win mid dif. Nothing more and nothing less.



They clashed a second time. Nothing happened. As I said earlier.
If Fuji was somewhat serious a lot would happen.
Like Zoro getting stomped


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 15, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Not only were you being slightly hostile and very passive aggressive, but you labeled my posts with terms I have absolutely no business with.  I used no fanfiction or opinion to describe Kizaru or any of the supernova. If you expect me to reply again, have the same I respect I had for you and avoid the lying to make your post seem like it was belittling someone with stage 5 dementia. The fact that you have to get this flustered about me to get any of these points across is so unfortunate.
> 
> - Zephyr is completely irrelevant to Kizaru's speed in correlation with a post-skip supernova.
> - Kizaru being faster than pre-skip SN is still irrelevant.
> ...



Can we restart all over?

You; Kizaru is not the fastest and a few SN11 are faster than him due to improving in the TS cuz I said so and have no panel to use as reference as proof

Me; No, kizaru was portrayed as the fastest, hence his fruit and the beating he had given to the Sn11 in the Pts. Thus there's no way they could have improved their speed greatly in such a short amount of time

You; hurr durr dementia 5 et cetera..

Me; What?


I do not care if you believe I am being passive aggressive towards you. You can argue over whether my demeanor towards the content of your post is passive aggressive (Which is far from being it), but unless you continue to spout more nonsense with no substance at all, I won't stop accusing you of being dead wrong. You did use Fanfiction to argue that the Supernovas, each and every members that the term supernova consists of, somehow have trained their speed during the spawn of two years to gain the ability to keep up with Kizaru whom you mentioned to not have the best speed among every fighter/person in the storyline. According to your Fan-Fiction, Kizaru is not the fastest character when in truth he was portrayed as such by the author himself. Thus your actions themselves meet the requirements to deem you as someone who believes his opinionated Fan-fiction holds more weighting in being the truth than the words of the Author himself, Oda. Of course, you can think that way, I am in no way going to disallow you from thinking such nonsense, but just bear in mind that believing something and calling it a fact are two entirely different things. Also, when you speculate that they've somehow gotten an improvement in speed without them showcasing such "improvement" on panel, your words can only be taken with a grain of salt. 

Zephyr was an Admiral who had beaten many vice admirals adept at the use of Soru prior to his confrontation with Kizaru. He could not land a single blow on Kizaru neither did his Explosion he used against Kizaru reach Kizaru because the latter's speed was faster than the detonation speed of the Explosion Zephyr used. No one can compete with Kizaru in terms of speed, and the Supernovas, who, individually, are not remotely close to having similar speed to Kizaru who is the embodiment of light itself.

The potential of the Supernovas on improving their Haki to match that of Kizaru's in such a short amount of time is there, as evidenced by the fact that Law was able to surpass Vergo's haki with his own haki by having been exposed to Haki for only 2 years despite Vergo having had attained this ability long before Law had even learned the skill himself in the Pts. Vergo had more years in training his Haki than Law, but still had his Haki overpowered by Law. Thus meaning that the supernovas can do the same, as the possibility of them surpassing Kizaru's haki is there, although we must understand that the difference in the level of haki between a Vice admiral and an Admiral is huge. Thus a supernova level fighter trying to train their haki with only 2 years to overcome that of an Admiral's will take a much longer period of time than trying to overcome the level of haki of a Vice admirals as the gap between the level of Haki of an Admiral and a vice admiral is very wide. 

We can actually assess on which fighters among the Supernovas and Kizaru has better haki feats based on experience and the years they've had in training their Haki. Suffice to say, Kizaru's haki is on the same level as Akainu's (because of their admiral ranking) whose individual haki was able to reduce the amount of damage from attacks outputted by both top tiers like Marco and Vista. Both Vista and Marco are above each and every member of the Pts, so what makes you say the Post Time skip supernovas have the requisite haki to injure someone's haki on the level of  Akainu's? 

As for Speed? It's been portrayed in the manga that Kizaru was the fastest living being every and his fight against an admiral, zephyr, can attest to what I am saying and the fact that he was able to blitz pre time skip X-Drake before the latter realized what had happened. Of course, X-Drake did get STRONGER over the time skip and improved his overall combat ability in which consists of speed, strength defense et cetera but the extremity at which he improved on those stats isn't enough to speak of his newly trained feats, specifically speed, in the same breath as Kizaru's speed. You're not understanding the difference between combat speed and movement speed. Kizaru's combat speed is not as fast as his movement speed. His combat speed can be tracked and fight equally by strong fighters  on the level of Old rayleigh who had managed to fight on equal grounds with Kizaru, though bear in mind that kizaru barely displayed 50% of his power cause that arc was intended for the introduction of Kizaru. Kizaru is the fastest living being in One piece and no amount of training the supernovas will undergo allow them to propagate at the same speed as Kizaru. Who do you think will surpass kizaru in speed specifically? There isn't anyone that can contend with Kizaru's movement speed. The guy, along with Enel and Kuma, are the fastest beings whose speed are above all, and kizaru is the pinnacle of speed.

And I never said his opponents do not have human potential, quit straw manning my arguments  their potential to become stronger than kizaru is there, as is with any humans if they get exposed to the right quality of training from an exceptional master. Although being exposed to only 2 years of training in the time skip is not enough for them to beat kizaru in an individual match. The haki they learned over the spawn of 2 years is not as good as Kizaru nor is their speed better than his. Do you agree with this, or are you conceding defeat? It seems to me that you disagree with me by the way you reply to me with wall of texts filled with absolutely no substance at all.


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## Esdese (Jun 15, 2014)

So is this Pre-Ts SN or Post-Ts SN? Not that it makes a difference they still lose either way


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## NO (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> <removed>


Wow. Let's cut the bullshit since you clearly aren't trying to debate against me. For you to be debating against me, you must understand the material we're debating and have a clear goal. You don't understand what I've posted despite being reiterated multiple times and there is not a single person in this thread that has argued against or for the points you claim I said.

You're just trying to put up a show for people based on your humiliating admittance that you will get offensive in order to prove your point so I'll play along.

1. *You keep lying. * I never said the SN were admiral level. I never said their haki was admiral level. I never said their speed was admiral level.  You straw manned me in every occurrence you bring this up. I thought you just misread it, but no, your reading comprehension failed you time and time again. Quote me. Fucking find the quotes, anywhere in this thread. Search this thread a dozen times after you've searched a dozen times because you won't find me saying any of this bullshit you accuse me of saying. I was extremely careful with my word choice and I told you to  I was using for my SN defense.

2. *You are arguing for the Supernova yet you're arguing against me.*  You agreed with my entire post (#71) and now here you are accusing me of strengthening the defense for the SN with *lies*. Yes, I agree that when someone on your side is defending your side with utter bullshit that you're more than welcome to call them out. But I did nothing of that sort. Plain and simple, you lied about what I said and you won't give up, despite initially agreeing with my first post in this thread.

3. *You don't have citations. * You claim that Kizaru has superior speed and haki to post-skip SN but you can not cite this. You can't find a single correlation between post-skip SN and Kizaru. I asked Hisoka to provide the citation for this and he choked up and ignored me. Plain and simple, you can not use something in a debate as a defense if you can not prove its validity. Both of you could not provide a citation. There people who are reading these posts, that completely disagree with me, and are on Kizaru's side still can not provide a citation to shut me up. They are not posting in this thread for a great reason: they can't win. You, for god's sake, are arguing for the SN, but still can't provide a single citation. *I said, as plain and as simple as I could say it, if you can not prove it or find any correlation whatsoever, then do not use it in a debate.* And that is why I said we forget about haki superiority, forget about speed, and go straight to damage output - to which the SN low diff Kizaru, provided they create a plan.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

wow, that was a lot of observation.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Wow. Let's cut the bullshit since you clearly aren't trying to debate against me. For you to be debating against me, you must understand the material we're debating and have a clear goal. You don't understand what I've posted despite being reiterated multiple times and there is not a single person in this thread that has argued against or for the points you claim I said.
> 
> You're just trying to put up a show for people based on your humiliating admittance that you will get offensive in order to prove your point so I'll play along.
> 
> ...




The only bullshit in this thread is the words that you utter out of your mouth which is enough to convince anyone of how poorly your thought of process works. The nonsense you spout are a clear reflection of your fragmented thought of process that is very inferior to that of a small child's. 

  Its remarkable that the one individual in this thread that has criticized me as ridiculously stupid or in your case pretentious never include a viable explanation as to why I am such. Even when asked to do so I get no response. The truth is you and other ESFJs don't have the caliber necessary to understand what I intuit easily, and therefore not having the capacity necessary to comprehend my insights you mistake my confidence for arrogance. All INTPs have to deal with this from persons of low intelligence. The following excerpt from An INTP Profile explains this- Where detachment ceases is when someone makes an illogical statement or violates one of the INTPs principles. At such a point, the INTP feels the instant drive to provide for clarity. This is his Mission; to be the provider of clarity, and is often suspicious that he is the only person capable of this task. Here, the INTP risks being seen as over-critical, aloof and arrogant. On the whole, however, real arrogance is rare for INTPs for their desire is not to dominate others but simply to observe, analyse and clarify. Once the point has been clarified, the INTP withdraws quickly, for he prefers not to be in the limelight unless absolutely necessary. Hence, for most of the time, INTPs are easy-going and will fit in to others' needs, taking up the role of observer again.
Now that I have explained your misconception  why don't you explain why you might think I am wrong? 

How so? Why don't you explain why I am a liar in what I accused you of doing? By the way when you are wrong in an argument it is better to concede to your opponents correct points than to resort to distorting them. 

Aside from your consistent distortion of my statements, you have disrespected me by continuing to refer to me as a liar sarcastically and condescendingly when I told you to stop. The excuse you gave for doing this is that it is a fact that I lied. Explain the logic behind insulting someone by calling them a liar and then repeatedly doing so after being told to stop because you think what youre saying is correct along with the other drivel youve written You have continuously fabricated statements of mine to seem justified in your criticism of me. You are very simple minded. You have not given a single viable reason to explain your argument that I am a liar.


I haven't got the time to indulge in this pathetic little game you have set up for the both of us, although if that means schooling a pretentious kid under the assumption that I had resorted to Ad hominems just to prove a point, that I will stay here to refute your argument. First of all, when I see a post that is not only objectively wrong but blatantly ignorant to the point it looks like the one that wrote said post I showed my disdain for is trolling, I will call their posts out on being idiotic and the messenger behind the message misinformed. Notice how I never insulted you without giving you a reason? Your hilarious post are enough of a reason to incite a reaction out of me, whether you like it or not. You cannot do anything else because I know from the way you think you haven't got the capacity to understand basic logic.

First of all, I never made the claim that you said the Supernovas were as strong as admiral level by admitting to you having said that they're admiral level. I simply made the claim that in the aspect of haki and speed, you believed they're admiral level in certain aspects of overall combat ability. So please refrain from beating up a Straw man. It's useless and will only make others not want to take you seriously. When you replied to member Hisoka by which you disagreed with his view in this post you made  you made your intentions clear by being in a disagreement with the three statements you referenced from what member Hisoka had stated. I then replied to your comment with this comment I made myself;  To which was me saying that I mostly agreed with the post you brought that Hisoka had written which you somehow seemed to not want to accept as a fact by disagreeing with what he wrote. You then write this post just to say that Kizaru does not seem to be faster than the post time skip supernovas.  Before you wrote that post, the post that I wrote which forced a response out of you said that Kizaru was faster than the Supernovas, which you then replied to that by disagreeing with my objective opinion.


I admit to being in favor of the Post time skip SN11's winning, despite them being inferior to Kizaru in terms of speed but the gap is not significant to make Kizaru speed blitz them like he did to them in the pre time skip of the story line. You're extremely ignorant when saying that me arguing for the supernovas makes me become a walking contradiction the moment I am arguing against you  I am only arguing against you because you've disagreed with this  that has you saying "Kizaru is not the fastest" when from time and time again he has been proven to be the fastest by virtue of being the embodiment of light itself. It also has you disagree with the notion that Kizaru's haki is not better than the Supernovas when his haki is comparable to his fellow Admiral colleague whose haki was able to withstand the blow from two top tiers such as Marco and Vista. Thus the Supernovas could not of had acquired the level of Haki stronger than that of an admirals in the span of only 2 years. Unless you have evidence to suggest that their haki got stronger than the admirals in the spawn of only 2 years. I debunked your argument that they're faster than the admirals, and have better control of Haki.


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## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Chill ladies. Let's go have a slurpee. It's on me.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

What's up with all the TL;DRs that say nothing?


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> What's up with all the TL;DRs that say nothing?



I know you're a noob at debating and one piece in general, as people have told me in my PM, and according to the content of your post. You wern't that much of a good debater, nor had any extensive grasp on One piece, but I'll let you bask in your own misconception and awful views. This is OPBD, nor OBD, and as your join date suggests, you're only like a few months new on this site so you need to understand the rules and regulations of said section.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 16, 2014)

If this happened in the manga then the team would win cuz as we all know, every 1hitting attacks or every op attacks are NOT used  for some odd reason or else it would be Akainu=Kizaru=Aokiji=Mera mera user=Snow user>>>>>>>>Everyone else including pirate king. Things like the attack Akainu used on the iceberg or Kizaru's Yasakani no magatama should 1shot EVERYONE but they don't use it that much. People keep saying "Yasakani no magatami game over' they are forgetting that if it's that op then Kizaru would spam that shit against everyone he's fought this far, Had the attack been effective against low top tiers (rayleigh) he would jump in the sky and spam that shit every fight but he won't. Are you guys expecting EOS Sanji vs Kizaru to be Yasakani no magatama thenn game over? Fuck no


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Are you guys expecting EOS Sanji vs Kizaru to be Yasakani no magatama thenn game over? Fuck no


any version of Sanji vs any top tier = defeat


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> any version of Sanji vs any top tier = defeat



We all know Sanji will be top tier Eos and should be able to defeat an Admiral or give the admiral an extreme diff fight.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

inb4 EoS Sanji still can't beat DD.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> The intangibility thing is over-rated. It needs to be consciously activated, therefore it's not about having enough haki to over come his intangibility, but finding an opening to deliver a hacks on him. Even with inability, elemental damage such as fire and lighting should do some damage. Then there's also hacks from Law, Bonnie and Capone to look out for.
> 
> Team Mid dif.



Why do you love talking fucking bullshit? The admirals are experience logia they activate their intange automatic just like enel. Kizaru got shot in the head without knowing in saboady and the bullet went through his head. Why do you have to downplay the admirals at all times just because they're one of the strongest people I the verse you just gotta deal with it and stop making shit up. Elemental attacks won't do shit to him aswell dammit. It only works if it's the element his fruit is weak against like water for croc. I'm sure that if it was a non logia admiral you wouldn't made that bs up


Kizaru wins both scenario. No one said how they would survive a mangrove busting kicks and YNM. The aoe of the second with its ship sized laser is too much for the sn


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Why do you love talking fucking bullshit? The admirals are experience logia they activate their intange automatic just like enel. Kizaru got shot in the head without knowing in saboady and the bullet went through his head. Why do you have to downplay the admirals at all times just because they're one of the strongest people I the verse you just gotta deal with it and stop making shit up. Elemental attacks won't do shit to him aswell dammit. It only works if it's the element his fruit is weak against like water for croc. I'm sure that if it was a non logia admiral you wouldn't made that bs up
> 
> 
> Kizaru wins both scenario. No one said how they would survive a mangrove busting kicks and YNM. The aoe of the second with its ship sized laser is too much for the sn



This. He actually does stomp the SN. They have no way of tagging him in the first scenario and if he stays in the air in he second one, only really Law could do anything (with Shambles), but he would just get one-shot in the air so it doesn't matter.

Some of these kids here seriously don't understand how vs. debates go if they think Kizaru gets pushed to anything higher than low diff.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

Indeed when one character is convincingly weaker than another he will lose even if you add 10 or 20 fighter on his level. I still didn't see anyone answering how they make him tangible with their weak haki in scenario 1. Much better fighters like marco and vista were not able to always connect with the admirals real body. The problem is that they have to go through the admiral intangibility and then his haki defense. 

No one said how they will manage to survive YNM. He can keep raining it down till here's nothing left

IMO they will continue to lose until the gap between them and the admirals is small.

@law your sanji hate is getting old


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> No one said how they would survive a mangrove busting kicks and YNM


Yeah, Luffy and Zoro who are portrayed as damn tanks compared to normal people on their level are going to be taken down by few kicks and YNM. Not counting those who we didn't even see yet fighting much such as Kidd and Drake who I think both will be stronger than both Luffy and Zoro when we see them in their own arcs/story.

kicks and YNM are not game over. The SNs are not standing still waiting for Kizaru to attack them. Hell, Luffy has been taking light speed kicks since pre skip. 

The SNs got so much on their side. One guy who can basically make all types of metals useless if you're using one and one guy who can teleport you and move stuff using his fingers. These two variables a lone should make fighting any decent team harder than it looks, let a lone their actual strength and experience combined.



> @law your sanji hate is getting old


what are you talking about. Sanji is one of the coolest character introduced in the whole series. Take the whole nose bleeding thing and he might actually be top 5 on my list.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> This. He actually does stomp the SN. They have no way of tagging him in the first scenario and if he stays in the air in he second one, only really Law could do anything (with Shambles), but he would just get one-shot in the air so it doesn't matter.
> 
> Some of these kids here seriously don't understand how vs. debates go if they think Kizaru gets pushed to anything higher than low diff.



If Oda read some of this shit he'd facepalm himself to death,no one who says the team wins has addressed how they deal with YNM spam and mind you that's for the second scenario he wouldn't need it for the first.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Some of these kids here seriously don't understand how vs. debates go if they think Kizaru gets pushed to anything higher than low diff.



And it looks like you don't understand how 1 vs a group plays.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> If Oda read some of this shit he'd facepalm himself to death,no one who says the team wins has addressed how they deal with YNM spam and mind you that's for the second scenario he wouldn't need it for the first.



Yes. Yes he would.



Urouge said:


> Indeed when one character is convincingly weaker than another he will lose even if you add 10 or 20 fighter on his level. I still didn't see anyone answering how they make him tangible with their weak haki in scenario 1. Much better fighters like marco and vista were not able to always connect with the admirals real body. The problem is that they have to go through the admiral intangibility and then his haki defense.
> 
> No one said how they will manage to survive YNM. He can keep raining it down till here's nothing left.



Exactly. They don't understand how Haki works and they seriously think an Admiral-level Logia hasn't perfected dispersion, it's a fucking joke. I literally have given that example like 4 times and no one can address it. Marco and Vista are significantly above the SN and they couldn't even make Akainu bleed when they were bloodlusted but somehow, miraculously, the SN can? C'mon now... 

They can't. Literally NO one here who's on the SN's side has provided an adequate argument as to why the SN can make it, they're just talking bullshit.



oOLawlietOo said:


> And it looks like you don't understand how 1 vs a group plays.



I understand very well how it would play. Kizaru wouldn't even bother getting close to them. He would rain down from above and as none of them have anyway to get close to him, they get shat on from the sky. He has way better endurance than all of them and if he doesn't kill them right away, he'll outlast them and they will all eventually become exhausted and sluggish and then he will end up killing them regardless. 

Because he might not kill them right away, I see low diff as plausible because he might get slightly tired from raining down on them while they evade, but nothing more than this as it shouldn't take him longer than 1 day to kill them all.

Actually, not even a day. I just looked at the location and that location is flat. It might take him until lunch time where he would have fresh SN meat to eat and then he will call it a day.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> I still didn't see anyone answering how they make him tangible with their weak haki in scenario


first, you claimed their Haki is weak when one of them was already clashing with a living legend not long ago and won in a Haki fight.

2nd, you talk like you know how Haki and Logias interact with each other. Yeah, we know what we saw but that all was nothing but our own guesses from what we saw/read on how Haki actually interacts with Logias. Nothing has been confirmed, so saying shit like; their Haki is not on his level doesn't matter cuz it was never stated that your Haki needs to be on the Logia user's level so you can actually touch him.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> *Yeah, Luffy and Zoro who are portrayed as damn tanks compared to normal people on their level are going to be taken down by few kicks and YNM*. Not counting those who we didn't even see yet fighting much such as Kidd and Drake who I think both will be stronger than both Luffy and Zoro when we see them in their own arcs/story.
> 
> kicks and *YNM are not game over*. The SNs are not standing still waiting for Kizaru to attack them. Hell, Luffy has been taking light speed kicks since pre skip.
> 
> ...



Luffy and Zoro can tank YNM spam?


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> understand very well how it would play. Kizaru wouldn't even bother getting close to them. He would rain down from above and as none of them have anyway to get close to him, they get shat on from the sky. He has way better endurance than all of them and if he doesn't kill them right away, he'll outlast them and they will all eventually become exhausted and sluggish and then he will end up killing them regardless.
> 
> Because he might not kill them right away, I see low diff as plausible because he might get slightly tired from raining down on them while they evade, but nothing more than this as it shouldn't take him longer than 1 day to kill them all.



Here we go with the scenario you're coming up with your ass where Kizaru is raining on their asses and they're just standing still, yeah you obviously know how fights go.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> 2nd, you talk like you know how Haki and Logias interact with each other. Yeah, we know what we saw but that all was nothing but our own guesses from what we saw/read on how Haki actually interacts with Logias. Nothing has been confirmed, so saying shit like; their Haki is not on his level doesn't matter cuz it was never stated that your Haki needs to be on the Logia user's level so you can actually touch him.



He literally just explained it to you and gave you an example and now you're refuting the manga?


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Luffy and Zoro can tank YNM spam?


I never said they can. Read my post again or just stop trying to be a smart ass and you'll get what I was trying to say.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Here we go with the scenario you're coming up with your ass where Kizaru is raining on their asses and they're just standing still, yeah you obviously know how fights go.



You clearly can't read. I didn't say they would be standing still, I said they would be evading his attacks. Eventually they would run out of stamina, far faster than Kizaru would, and he would put them down.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

@law none of what you said answer my question. Luffy and Zoro and the others sn have not shown the durability feats to survive a YNM an attack kizaru was confident of hurting or even taking down WB. the mangrove kick was able to vaporize a sckyscraper sized tree and it was casual. The sn might be able to survive it sure but they sure as hell will be properly fucked up by it. You have to prove that they're durable enough to survive those attacks because we saw what those attacks can do. Let's not forget that luffy was hurt by a bite from hody and his haki was able to do anything.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> He literally just explained it to you and gave you an example and now you're refuting the manga?



I don't see anything.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I never said they can. Read my post again or just stop trying to be a smart ass and you'll get what I was trying to say.



You clearly think they can as you think they can actually put up a fight against Kizaru. Their best hopes are to run away and even with that, he'll outlast them.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I don't see anything.





I'll take your concession now.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> You clearly can't read. I didn't say they would be standing still, I said they would be evading his attacks. Eventually they would run out of stamina, far faster than Kizaru would, and he would put them down.



And you are clearly showing why you're ignorant with every post you make. Evade and fight are two different things. The scenario you came up with wasn't even a fight, it was Kizaru attacking people who are running. I am done with you.



> heir best hopes are to run away and even with that, he'll outlast them.


Point proven.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> first, you claimed their Haki is weak when one of them was already clashing with a living legend not long ago and won in a Haki fight.
> 
> 2nd, you talk like you know how Haki and Logias interact with each other. Yeah, we know what we saw but that all was nothing but our own guesses from what we saw/read on how Haki actually interacts with Logias. Nothing has been confirmed, so saying shit like; their Haki is not on his level doesn't matter cuz it was never stated that your Haki needs to be on the Logia user's level so you can actually touch him.



The same luffy who 1 arc ago was bleeding from a hody bite rven though he hardened his shoulder

Are you fucking serious? just because you dot understand how it works it doesn't mean that we don't. Of fucking course you need a similar haki level than a logia to be able to hit their real body. The haki of the logia will counter your haki which will keep them Intangible


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> And you are clearly showing why you're ignorant with every post you make. Evade and fight are two different things. The scenario you came up with wasn't even a fight, it was Kizaru attacking people who are running. I am done with you.



Nothing to back up what you're saying? Your concession was noted two pages ago.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> I'll take your concession now.



wtf is this supposed to explain? I read MF, thank you for the reminder. This panel proves nothing whatsoever.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> The same luffy who 1 arc ago was bleeding from a hody bite rven though he hardened his shoulder
> 
> Are you fucking serious? just because you dot understand how it works it doesn't mean that we don't. Of fucking course you need a similar haki level than a logia to be able to hit their real body. The haki of the logia will counter your haki which will keep them Intangible



>doesn't get how it works
>expects Kizaru to be retarded when he has full intel
>calls us retarded because he doesn't know how fighting works


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> wtf is this supposed to explain? I read MF, thank you for the reminder. This panel proves nothing whatsoever.



You can't read, I expect nothing less.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

I mean it seriously surprise me that people still don't understand how haki works. It simple really. Law room slashes only works on people his haki level is similar too. The big slash he cut vergo with wouldn't work on people on the level of dofla and up


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> >doesn't get how it works
> >expects Kizaru to be retarded when he has full intel
> >calls us retarded because he doesn't know how fighting works



Indeed 

I mean I didn't even mention the huge difference in speed and coo mastery


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> @law none of what you said answer my question. Luffy and Zoro and the others sn have not shown the durability feats to survive a YNM an attack kizaru was confident of hurting or even taking down WB. the mangrove kick was able to vaporize a sckyscraper sized tree and it was casual. The sn might be able to survive it sure but they sure as hell will be properly fucked up by it. You have to prove that they're durable enough to survive those attacks because we saw what those attacks can do. Let's not forget that luffy was hurt by a bite from hody and his haki was able to do anything.



Like I said, Luffy has survived light speed kicks already, go back to MF and check for yourself. 



> Let's not forget that luffy was hurt by a bite from hody and his haki was able to do anything.


Luffy didn't use Haki, at least I don't remember him using it to block the bite. 




> a YNM an attack kizaru was confident of hurting or even taking down WB


of course it's going to hurt, it's damn light being shot at you. Confident in taking him down with it? Yeah, a lot of people are confident but that doesn't mean anything.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Indeed
> 
> I mean I didn't even mention the huge difference in speed and coo mastery



Aye. His DC alone shits on them. He could blitz them CQC if he really wanted to.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

To be fair none of us fully understand how haki works but even then......


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> To be fair none of us fully understand how haki works but even then......



Marco and Vista not injuring Akainu because of a Haki discrepancy is enough to make the SN-can't-tag-Kizaru argument valid though, that's all that needs to be said.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> *Like I said, Luffy has survived light speed kicks already, go back to MF and check for yourself.
> 
> 
> Luffy didn't use Haki, at least I don't remember him using it to block the bite.
> ...



You do realize all those kicks Kizaru gave Luffy were casual right, if Kizaru really wanted:


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Indeed when one character is convincingly weaker than another he will lose even if you add 10 or 20 fighter on his level. I still didn't see anyone answering how they make him tangible with their weak haki in scenario 1. Much better fighters like marco and vista were not able to always connect with the admirals real body.


IIRC, the only Admiral Marco couldn't make tangible was Akainu, but fighters like Whitebeard could only get past the Logia defense when bloodlusted.


Urouge said:


> The problem is that they have to go through the admiral intangibility and then his haki defense.


And then there is the Admiral's own natural durability, which is insane (tanking feats for the Admirals include taking Marco's kick, getting only a bloody lip from Jozu, walking off island splitting force, etc).


Urouge said:


> No one said how they will manage to survive YNM. He can keep raining it down till here's nothing left


Considering that Luffy couldn't even block a fodder's bite with BH, and Issho made Zoro bleed when he was holding back on Zoro, I think that tells us how they'd handle YNM.


Urouge said:


> IMO they will continue to lose until the gap between them and the admirals is small.


Agreed, though hopefully that should change in a few more arcs.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

I hope you two are done jerking off each other, cuz that panel still doesn't prove shit. That panel only says oh, Haki users, irritating. 

And you're using one example and dismissing many others that disproves this shit you're writing. And, I said Haki and logias since logias are tricky ones to deal with. How Logias interact with Haki users, this hasn't been answered yet. We know they can be hurt and beaten, even caught, but we don't know how much Haki you need or how much the difference has to be in order for it to work or not to work. 



> The big slash he cut vergo with wouldn't work on people on the level of dofla and up


Yeah, that's why Doflamingo has been avoiding Law's slashes and hits all the time.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Like I said, Luffy has survived light speed kicks already, go back to MF and check for yourself.



You do know that it was because kiz didn't use haki to go through his blunt damage resistance. Guys like drake and urouge got oneshot by it




> Luffy didn't use Haki, at least I don't remember him using it to block the bite.



I remember him using it 




> of course it's going to hurt, it's damn light being shot at you. Confident in taking him down with it? Yeah, a lot of people are confident but that doesn't mean anything.



No it's light projectiles the size of merry. It won't just hurt it will ko them if not kill them. It's basically a much more lethal and powerful version of elephant Gatling gun


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

Good post isho I forgot about Fuji making Zoro bleed with a casual gravity attack

Anyway I said what I had to say im out. There's no point to continue arguing this


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

He did use it. He even commented on how his BH still wasn't strong enough to tank an attack like Hody's teeth.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Luffy didn't use Haki, at least I don't remember him using it to block the bite.



There you go Luffy was using his haki

*Spoiler*: __


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## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Why do you love talking fucking bullshit? The admirals are experience logia they activate their intange automatic just like enel. Kizaru got shot in the head without knowing in saboady and the bullet went through his head. Why do you have to downplay the admirals at all times just because they're one of the strongest people I the verse you just gotta deal with it and stop making shit up. Elemental attacks won't do shit to him aswell dammit. It only works if it's the element his fruit is weak against like water for croc. I'm sure that if it was a non logia admiral you wouldn't made that bs up
> 
> 
> Kizaru wins both scenario. No one said how they would survive a mangrove busting kicks and YNM. The aoe of the second with its ship sized laser is too much for the sn



What bullshit? Both Haki and logia intangibility need to be activated in order to have the defensive capable of over coming attacks from high tiers that has Haki alone. Admirals and top tiers can activate their almost automatically, but it doesn't mean it's completely automatic.  Same goes with CoO guys like luffy who can effortless dodge lasers from pacifista. In this case I am not down playing anyone. Being one of the strongest doesn't make that person automatically able to take on as many High tiers and possible especially where there are high tiers that's capable of one shotting him even without needing to overcome that intangibility. I am not surprised at a response like this though. Your head have being inside this admiral is omnipotent concepts for years. Keep thinking that until the day OP ends.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

I never said Luffy can tank shit using Haki a lone. Like I said, you're talking as if the SNs are not fighting back. Wanna ask me how the SNs are going to survive light speed kicks and all that stuff? Why not explain how Kizaru is going to survive a thor into the head. And don't give me that their Haki won't even touch him bullshit, you don't know how Haki exactly works so stop making claims that you do. And this is not a tanking contest, this is a team attacking  one dude, not running or fleeing.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

@sabo 

What are you on about? I told you that the admirals and experience logia users can turn into their element automatically. I gave you the bullet example from saboady and you still continue with your "they can be hit before they activate it" enel logias was active even when he was asleep. Seriously stop bringing this up because it's bullshit. Another thing the reason why the admirals are so dangerous is because of the size of their attack, the lethality and their logia defense. the only people who showed good enough haki to make them tangible were top tier so now you have to prove that the bs haki mastery is as good as guys like marco and WB otherwise they can hit all they want it won't do anything to him.


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I never said Luffy can tank shit using Haki a lone. Like I said, you're talking as if the SNs are not fighting back. Wanna ask me how the SNs are going to survive light speed kicks and all that stuff? Why not explain how Kizaru is going to survive a thor into the head. And don't give me that their Haki won't even touch him bullshit, you don't know how Haki exactly works so stop making claims that you do. And this is not a tanking contest, this is a team attacking  one dude, not running or fleeing.



No you were saying that his haki was good enough to hit an admiral and defend himself. Luffy has the best haki feat in the sn and even he wasn't able to protect himself from the bite of a glorified fodder. He still has a long way to go. 

You guys are still not saying how they will survive YNM. A single bolt is bigger than law sub and he unleashes hundreds of them so good luck dodging them all


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

Wouldn't Kizaru just dodge all their shit with his significant speed advantage and KH, never mind relying on his logia defense.


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## Ghost (Jun 16, 2014)

Kizaru loses.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 16, 2014)

Kizaru's laser attack shouldn't be that much faster than Pacifista laser which luffy called slow and dodged in base form. Here we have Kidd,Law,Drake and Zoro who are all around Luffy's strength,equal or stronger,and more people around Sanji level but more haxed apoo and hawkins and the Mafia guy. Scenario 1 should be High diff win for team and SCENARIO 2 is low-mid diff. Come on, Luffy's punches are stronger than steel,Zoro cuts steel like fruits and the others are something along those lines


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> No you were saying that his haki was good enough to hit an admiral and defend himself. Luffy has the best haki feat in the sn and even he wasn't able to protect himself from the bite of a glorified fodder. He still has a long way to go.
> 
> You guys are still not saying how they will survive YNM. A single bolt is bigger than law sub and he unleashes hundreds of them so good luck dodging them all



Hody's teeth were sharp as fuck. Probably as sharp as a strong sword. Haki won't block sharp attacks unless I guess the difference in Haki and overall strength is just enormous, Tashigi vs Vergo.


----------



## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Urouge said:


> @sabo
> 
> What are you on about? I told you that the admirals and experience logia users can turn into their element automatically. I gave you the bullet example from saboady and you still continue with your "they can be hit before they activate it" enel logias was active even when he was asleep. Seriously stop bringing this up because it's bullshit. Another thing the reason why the admirals are so dangerous is because of the size of their attack, the lethality and their logia defense. the only people who showed good enough haki to make them tangible were top tier so now you have to prove that the bs haki mastery is as good as guys like marco and WB otherwise they can hit all they want it won't do anything to him.



Did you miss the part where by I said in order for their logia to be useful, they need to consciously activate their haki to infused the logia with the haki, also? The examples are irrelevant because these guys are amongst he highest of high tiers. Did you also miss the part where by I state that they have hax that can 1-shot an admiral given the right opportunity? I think I agree with an earlier poster who said 11 pre-skip novas can win with the right planning. 

A mid tier like croc was able to tap Akainu and sliced him in half due to a distraction. Imagine him in the same senario and law shambles his heart. Maybe get Bonnie to turn him into and old man. How about getting Capone to turn him into a tiny person. This is the scenario on how 11 pre-skip can bet him of course.


Post skip will have many more ways to wins, especially when we don't fully understand how Haki works yet. 

Damn you. Hate posting long posts on my phone.


----------



## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

It doesn't matter hardening is supposed to make your skin much harder than Steele so he should be able to block a weak attack like that. this is why luffy still has a long way to go in his haki mastery hell he said it himself. You guys are too impatient. Luffy might be a genius but it's still not enough for him to have haki on the same level as the admirals, garp, younkou and the other top tiers. He will get closer in every arc but not yet


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## Urouge (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Did you miss the part where by I said in order for their logia to be useful, they need to consciously activate their haki to infused the logia with the haki, also? The examples are irrelevant because these guys are amongst he highest of high tiers. Did you also miss the part where by I state that they have hax that can 1-shot an admiral given the right opportunity? I think I agree with an earlier poster who said 11 pre-skip novas can win with the right planning.
> 
> A mid tier like croc was able to tap Akainu and sliced him in half due to a distraction. Imagine him in the same senario and law shambles his heart. Maybe get Bonnie to turn him into and old man. How about getting Capone to turn him into a tiny person. This is the scenario on how 11 pre-skip can bet him of course.



But for all those attacks to work they need to have haki on a similar level to kiz for it to work and the burden is on you to prove it. IMO the gap between them and kiz is as big as the gap between tashigi and law and we all know what happened between those 2. Law can probably 100 tashigi no problem and I bet that you agree. You can expect them to have attacks and haki on the same level as the top of the top in just 2 years of training. They would get obliterated by YNM let's be serious here. I just don't see how they can possibly survive this I really can't. Dodging is not an option because aoe of the attack and the size of the laser bolts which are a good deal bigger than law sub. They don't have marco regen or haki. 



> Post skip will have many more ways to wins, especially when we don't fully understand how Haki works yet.



Hold on those that mean that you think they have slim chance of winning pre ts 




> Damn you. Hate posting long posts on my phone.



Same here it's a pain to post long post on the phone so this will probably be my last post till I find a pc


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## Amol (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Same old Same old thing he did with me tsk tsk



Ignore him. His debating skills are facepalm worthy. I am not even going to bother with him anymore.
--------------------------------------------------



I just finished reading these all pages.
From what I gathered:
1) One group believes admiral level person has superior haki, strength and endurance than SN hence he will one shot them literally; team efforts means nothing . Admiral 'stomp' 11 SN together. A Top-tier >>> any no of High tier.
2) Second group including me believes that since time-skip SN's are forming alliances to take down Yonkou. Not all SN's are idiots like Luffy and declares war on yonkou. Many of them watched Marineford and survived NW for 2 years . That means they understand what they are getting themselves into.
Oda is making it painfully obvious that SN stand some chance against Yonkou. Does that mean they can win against Yonkou? No one knows. But point is they stand chance with alliance . So it is not stretch of imagination that all of them together can fight a top-tier at some level. What is point going after Kaido or Big Mom if they together can't fight a single person let alone all crew?
Thing is that we haven't seen any SN's full capacity after time-skip yet. Everyone is speculating their strength.
Luffy got beaten by Hody on pills while Luffy was using haki. One Shigan from Lucci took down Luffy at first in Water 7 but on same day he tanked 3 Rokougan's from him. Point is endurance changes how plot demands it. Blood  Transfer was necessary for plot hence Luffy got beaten. We haven't seen full potential of Luffy's Haki yet. So it won't be asspull if Luffy shows stronger haki than that . We don't even understand how haki even works. Calm Marco casually connected with Aokiji and Kizaru while bloodlusted couldn't even make Akainu tangible. There is no huge difference between haki levels of Aokoji and Akainu. So there is no point in making assumptions about it.  

In nutshell I don't think any of SN is of Admiral Level yet but at same time SN can one shot Vice Admirals. 
So with good strategy and team work they can definitely take down Tangible Kizaru(with high diff and few loses) while Intangible Kizaru would be great challenge with 60-40% in his favour.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

I still see no arguments provided for these claims aside from assumptions, opinions, and beliefs. 

Concessions have been noted.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

The amount of Jimmies that have been rustled in this thread  

All hail


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> The amount of Jimmies that have been rustled in this thread
> 
> All hail



The SN fanboys go strong. :ignoramus


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> The SN fanboys go strong. :ignoramus




*Spoiler*: __ 







 Kizaru's been slaying dem fan favorites I guess some just haven't got over it  

OT: In the second scenario I think he'd have to take out Law and Apoo first since I feel they'll have the most haxx out of the group although I could be wrong.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Law definitely has to go first, that's for sure.

I was also thinking that Hawkins could be a problem for the team, especially assuming the 12 of them are the only ones on the island. Any damage done to him would be transferred to one of the SNs and they can't with stand constant attacks like that. 

The dude doesn't have very many speed feats either which is bad for him.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 16, 2014)

The top-tier wank is going strong i see. How about Kizaru vs all WB division commanders ?

Scenario 1: He losses. I think at this point there is no one in OP that can take all 11 at once. Kidd, Law and Luffy are already Silver-medalist status by pushing Joker. 

Scenario 2: He gets fucking stomped. Too much hax thrown at him at once. CoA can only take so much. If he was fully bloodlusted he could maybe make a fight of it. But in character Kizaru gets slaughtered.


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## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

Kizaru warps 2 kilometres away and unleashes "Yasakani no Magatama" for ten days.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Kizaru warps 2 kilometres away and unleashes "Yasakani no Magatama" for ten days.



If only you were here 5 pages ago.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Kizaru warps 2 kilometres away and unleashes "Yasakani no Magatama" for ten days.


I wonder how Kizaru would effect an island if he used his best attacks for ten days?


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I wonder how Kizaru would effect an island if he used his best attacks for ten days?





= the whole island. It would probably cease to be land, it would just be submerged.


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## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I wonder how Kizaru would effect an island if he used his best attacks for ten days?



It would just be left a smoldering crater.


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## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't even think people took that into consideration. The location is already a flat surface...


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 16, 2014)

So the supernova (11 people) who together would be much stronger than the strawhat crew still can't defeat 1 Admiral? Timeskip wasted much? Monster trio are supposed to give an Admiral high diff fight and 11 people stronger/equal  can't defeat 1admiral.. well ok


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## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

This thread is funny as fuck.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> So the supernova (11 people) who together would be much stronger than the strawhat crew still can't defeat 1 Admiral? Timeskip wasted much? *Monster trio are supposed to give an Admiral high diff* fight and 11 people stronger/equal  can't defeat 1admiral.. well ok



You think the current M3 could give an Admiral a high diff fight in a 3 on 1?


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## Luke (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> You think the current M3 could give an Admiral a high diff fight in a 3 on 1?



What the hell was the point of the timeskip if they're still not even close?


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## Canute87 (Jun 16, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> What the hell was the point of the timeskip if they're still not even close?



So they could fight the other people who aren't admirals without almost dying in the process.


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## Luke (Jun 16, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> So they could fight the other people who aren't admirals without almost dying in the process.



Rayleigh told Luffy that the training would assure that what happened at Sabaody couldn't happen again. 

Kizaru, Kuma, Sentomaru, and some Pacifista's were at Sabaody. Shouldn't this imply that the training meant the Straw Hats could at least put up a good fight against an Admiral with powerful company? 

Not to mention Kidd, Law, Hawkins, Urouge, Bonney, Capone, Drake, etc. have all gotten stronger.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 16, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Rayleigh told Luffy that the training would assure that what happened at Sabaody couldn't happen again.
> 
> Kizaru, Kuma, Sentomaru, and some Pacifista's were at Sabaody. Shouldn't this imply that the training meant the Straw Hats could at least put up a good fight against an Admiral with powerful company?
> 
> Not to mention Kidd, Law, Hawkins, Urouge, Bonney, Capone, Drake, etc. have all gotten stronger.


This.
And if you don't remember what happened at Sabaody. Zoro almost killed. The rest killed (they could've been killed but they were sent flying to another place) Luffy got stomped by a pacifista. After the timeskip he 1shot the same pacifista.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> What the hell was the point of the timeskip if they're still not even close?



Dude Sanji got Roflstomped by DD, he'd be a non factor. Fuji was trolling Zoro like no tomorrow do you see where I'm going with this? 

People need to stop expecting the M3 to be automatically close to Admiral level just because they learned haki over two years.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Kizaru gets first move because fastest guy in the verse. He kicks the ground. Everyone dies a fiery death in the equivalent of a very powerful nuclear explosion.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 16, 2014)

Give people enough rope and they'll hang themselves. 




OT: 1) Kizaru wins high difficulty
2) Kizaru wins extreme difficulty.


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## Canute87 (Jun 16, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Rayleigh told Luffy that the training would assure that what happened at Sabaody couldn't happen again.
> 
> Kizaru, Kuma, Sentomaru, and some Pacifista's were at Sabaody. Shouldn't this imply that the training meant the Straw Hats could at least put up a good fight against an Admiral with powerful company?



Well they all had to go all out taking out one pacifista followed by another and then came Sentomaru a high tier fighter.  

Those numbers alone were way too much for the strawhats to manage much less an admiral coming into the mix.

There are many people who are stronger than sentomaru but at the same time weaker than an admiral and those numbers are in vast quantity. That was the purpose of the time skip, to survive against those odds.

At the very best they would be able to escape, not fight him head on and expect to survive. 

Poor guys were so weak they couldn't even escape properly. 


Not talking about other supernovas but people might be putting TOO much emphasis on time-skip training.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Dude Sanji got Roflstomped by DD, he'd be a non factor. Fuji was trolling Zoro like no tomorrow do you see where I'm going with this?
> 
> People need to stop expecting the M3 to be automatically close to Admiral level just because they learned haki over two years.


Yup. By the time the M3 are close to Admiral/Yonko level, the series will almost be over, these guys are the endgame opponents.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> Give people enough rope and they'll hang themselves.


Have you seen the DFless Kizaru thread yet? 


Canute87 said:


> Well they all had to go all out taking out one pacifista followed by another and then came Sentomaru a high tier fighter.
> 
> Those numbers alone were way too much for the strawhats to manage much less an admiral coming into the mix.
> 
> ...


Good post sir.


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## Amol (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> OT: 1) Kizaru wins high difficulty
> 2) Kizaru wins extreme difficulty.


You know you are one of the more sensible person who argued from Kizaru's side. Atleast you agree that Kizaru won't lolstomp them. Winning with high diff means opponent was tough and by no means fodders. My respect for you had rised.
Rep +


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Give people enough rope and they'll hang themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are tripping if you think Kizaru wins scenario 2.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Well they all had to go all out taking out one pacifista followed by another and then came Sentomaru a high tier fighter.
> 
> Those numbers alone were way too much for the strawhats to manage much less an admiral coming into the mix.
> 
> ...



Luffy is already going after people like Doflamingo and the Yonkou. He is not wasting his time with people like Squardo and all these shit if that's what you're trying to say.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

And why wouldn't he? His CoA provides _ample_ protection against small fry.


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## Canute87 (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Luffy is already going after people like Doflamingo and the Yonkou. He is not wasting his time with people like Squardo and all these shit if that's what you're trying to say.



Doflamingo himself is no match for an admiral and is scared shitless of Kaidou in addition to that we don't know if Luffy is going to single-handedly take him out.

Luffy has also had the most significant help going through this arc than I have ever seen before.

Franky family doesn't compare to this shit.


Squardo is not a silver medallist or even somebody to be even remembered.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> And why wouldn't he? His CoA provides _ample_ protection against small fry.



Alright then, why don't you in details explain to me how Haki interacts with Logias. Tell me how much the difference has to be in Haki so you can actually hit a logia user if that logia user is also a haki user. Do they need exact equal level of Haki? Why don't you answer these questions for me first before claiming like everyone else that Haki will actually protect him.

vergo's Haki should have protected him against Law's slash, but it didn't. Do we actually know that Law has better CoA? No. Maybe the difference in their Haki wasn't as big as Vergo and Tashigi, and that's why he couldn't block Law's sword like how he blocked Tashigi's. 

With that being said, The difference between Kizaru's Haki and some of the SNs shouldn't be the same as Vergo and Tashigi, they are the SNs for a reason. Which makes me say they can hit him, not every hit will hit of course, WB couldn't do that either.

But To think that after 2 years, none of the SNs can actually hit a logia user who is incredibly strong? with all their hax? with all their creativity and experience? 11 experienced SNs can't figure out how to hit one damn admiral?


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## Canute87 (Jun 16, 2014)

Well if they get their hands on some seastone it makes the fight rather easy.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Doflamingo himself is no match for an admiral and is scared shitless of Kaidou in addition to that we don't know if Luffy is going to single-handedly take him out.


I wouldn't say he's no match for an admiral, but okay.



> Squardo is not a silver medallist or even somebody to be even remembered.


My point still stands. He's already gunning for Doflamingo, a person who as far as we know, has the strongest crew/organization outside the Yonkou themselves. I am not saying from now on, one piece will be all about the SHs and the yonkou, of course not. But, there shouldn't be crews outside the yonkou who can challenge the SHs after this arc.
Notice how I said crews and not individuals, because I still believe there are strong individuals out there. Fujitora and greenbull are living examples.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

Two Haki veterans who were both blood lusted couldn't make an Admiral tangible with any lasting damage I'm talking about Marco and Vista but somehow the SN will manage despite only just learning Haki.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, use the ONE example that supports your argument and dismiss Jozu and Marco hurting an admiral. and they didn't just learn it, they learned it two years ago (Luffy and Zoro). The others might have learned it even before.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Yeah, use the ONE example that supports your argument and dismiss Jozu and Marco hurting an admiral. and they didn't just learn it, they learned it two years ago (Luffy and Zoro). The others might have learned it even before.



1) Marco never hurt any Admiral 
2) Jozu has better BH, plus his diamond ability which helps his offense even more.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> 1) Marco never hurt any Admiral
> 2) Jozu has better BH, plus his diamond ability which helps his offense even more.



1-He kicked Kizaru's  arm and sent him flying into a building, he hurt an admiral.
2- Prove that.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> 1) Marco never hurt any Admiral
> 2) Jozu has better BH, plus his diamond ability which helps his offense even more.



Does not matter. 11 of them should still be able to overpower  by which they find spots where he has not imbued his body with haki and the combined force of 11 supernovas would still do considerable amount of damage to him. We're talking about the future first mate of the yonkous and pirate kings here whose progress in the 2 years they've had to train are immense. Characters who barely had any decent feat in the Pts went on to demonstrate the ability to cut several mountains in two with the evolution of his ability he has trained in such a short amount of times. Who knows what insane abilities the other S11 have gotten? Kizaru looses with high diff.

Marco kicked Aokiji to a relatively long distance. That constitute to 'hurting' Jozu hurt aokiji as well.


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## Amol (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Yeah, use the ONE example that supports your argument and dismiss Jozu and Marco hurting an admiral. and they didn't just learn it, they learned it two years ago (Luffy and Zoro). The others might have learned it even before.



That example of Marco not able to hit Akainu is shrouded in mystery. Marco was capable of connecting and hitting Aokiji and Kizaru but he didn't manage with Akainu. We all know there is no huge difference of haki level in Admirals. This proves that there is something about haki we don't know. 
Marco should have able to connect Akainu considering his haki level. 
Otherwise Akainu vs Marco thread would be Akainu stomping  Marco because Marco can't connect with him.
So even if SN has lower levels of Haki I think they should be able to connect  Admiral . Of course it is just speculation on my part.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Everyone conveniently ignoring the fact that Kizaru can kick the ground and OHKO team 2.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> 1-He kicked Kizaru's  arm and sent him flying into a building, he hurt an admiral.
> 2- Prove that.



1) Kizaru was completely unscathed when he came out of that building  

2) Lets see Jozu managed to make Aokiji bleed so he got past his logia intangibility, no SN has a BH feat to top that.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> 1) Kizaru was completely unscathed when he came out of that building
> 
> 2) Lets see Jozu managed to make Aokiji bleed so he got past his logia intangibility, no SN has a BH feat to top that.



He connected with his body, which is something you were implying Marco can't do. He sent him flying into a building. That my friend is damage, he doesn't have to bleed or scream so we know he got hurt a little bit. 

2- I don't even know what to say to that. I wasn't comparing Jozu with the SNs, you were indirectly comparing him with Marco and Vista.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

There's a difference between "hurt" and minor irritation.

Regardless, my initial point still stands and everyone refuses to address it.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> He connected with his body, which is something you were implying Marco can't do. He sent him flying into a building. That my friend is damage, he doesn't have to bleed or scream so we know he got hurt a little bit.
> 
> 2- I don't even know what to say to that. I wasn't comparing Jozu with the SNs, you were indirectly comparing him with Marco and Vista.



1) No I was implying he couldn't hurt an Admiral which is true, all the Admirals were unscathed after they clashed with him. 


2) No my first point about Jozu having better BH was comparing it to the SN, although even then he gave Aokiji a bleeding lip, while Marco/Vista only irritated Akainu. 

Plus Aokiji didn't show any lasting damage after Marco sent him flying so.....


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> There's a difference between "hurt" and minor irritation.
> 
> Regardless, my initial point still stands and everyone refuses to address it.



These guys don't get it YNM spam will overwhelm the team.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Regardless, my initial point still stands and everyone refuses to address it.


what is it?


----------



## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> There's a difference between "hurt" and minor irritation.
> 
> Regardless, my initial point still stands and everyone refuses to address it.



It's okay. When Law shambles his heart, there will be no pain.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> what is it?



I've already posted it twice, but just for you, a third time. 


Kizaru kicks the ground. Everything dies. What more is there to discuss?


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> 1) No I was implying he couldn't hurt an Admiral which is true, all the Admirals were unscathed after they clashed with him.


Marco was not hurt either. He regenerated all the damage he sustained during the war, by the end of the war he had no wounds, not that I remember.



> Plus Aokiji didn't show any lasting damage after Marco sent him flying so.....


Maybe because it was ONE kick? and what do you mean by lasting damage, his ribs must be hurt, the kick was strong enough to break the ice sword. 



> while Marco/Vista only irritated Akainu.


do you even know what Haki is? It is will power. Their brother just died in front of their eyes, you think their will power is anything close to what it was when he was alive 2 minutes ago?


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## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> I've already posted it twice, but just for you, a third time.
> 
> 
> Kizaru kicks the ground. Everything dies. What more is there to discuss?



Law, Luffy and Kid combine their invisible haki to defend and Bonnie turns him into an old man and urouge crush all of that old man's bone in this scenario.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> I've already posted it twice, but just for you, a third time.
> 
> 
> Kizaru kicks the ground. Everything dies. What more is there to discuss?



You make me blush 

Why everything dies? What happens when Kizaru kicks the ground? They all fall down? or the explosion will kill them? Cuz they won't die from falling down and a mere explosion isn't going to kill them when they have already proven themselves to be able to endure much much more.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Law, Luffy and Kid combine their invisible haki to defend and Bonnie turns him into an old man and urouge crush all of that old man's bone in this scenario.



Yeah, cause they definitely have time to react, consciously think of working together, and execute the defense that might or might not work, before getting disintegrated by a massive fireball on the scale of what hit the mangrove in Sabaody.



oOLawlietOo said:


> Why everything dies? What happens when Kizaru kicks the ground? They all fall down? or the explosion will kill them? Cuz they won't die from falling down and a mere explosion isn't going to kill them when they have already proven themselves to be able to endure much much more.



This isn't a mere explosion. This is an extremely powerful fireball that was enough to completely scorch the tree and essentially turn the wood into nothing. And no one in the series has ever been hit by an attack of this scale.


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Marco was not hurt either. He regenerated all the damage he sustained during the war, by the end of the war he had no wounds, not that I remember.
> 
> 
> Maybe because it was ONE kick? and what do you mean by lasting damage, his ribs must be hurt, the kick was strong enough to break the ice sword.
> ...



I didn't mention anything about Marco been hurt, all I said was he never hurt an Admiral. 

They had just seen Akainu magma fist one of their family, they were fully blood lusted at that point their BH would've been at its best.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

The hell is up with this "kicks the ground" They're going to survive something that is not directed at them, but the ground instead. They're going to overpower him with their consecutive combined attacks more than he will handle them. He is outnumbered 11 to 1 against several haki users whose experience are enough to handle an admiral when they combine their strength together. Law's mountain level slashes, alongside Luffy's jet elephant gatling and Kid's massive electromagnetic control and other contributing factor are going to beat the Admiral.


----------



## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Yeah, cause they definitely have time to react, consciously think of working together, and execute the defense that might or might not work, before getting disintegrated by a massive fireball on the scale of what hit the mangrove in Sabaody.
> 
> 
> 
> .



 And you automatically assume he have time to react with 11 guys who's fully capable of keeping up with his speed.
 Examples includes, jimbid saving luffy, law buying time.

Novas have proven to rise to the challenge think on their feats, survive and thrive in the nw. I have confident with ther intellect to come up with that strategy. And that's just the 100 ways they can win.

P.S that defense is already proven canon to work. Ask the C3 if you don't believe me.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> The hell is up with this "kicks the ground" They're going to survive something that is not directed at them, but the ground instead.



Yeah, no. The explosion will literally melt them.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> They're going to overpower him with their consecutive combined attacks more than he will handle them. He is outnumbered 11 to 1 against several haki users whose experience are enough to handle an admiral when they combine their strength together.



Implying they'll ever get the chance to go on the offensive. Kizaru is pretty much the king of aoe. There is no respite.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Law's mountain level slashes, alongside Luffy's jet elephant gatling and Kid's massive electromagnetic control and other contributing factor are going to beat the Admiral.



Law's and Luffy's attacks take a lot of prep and a ton of energy to use. Neither of these will be enough to deal even decisive damage against Kizaru anyway. Plus, as I said, they'll be on the defensive anyway.



Admiral Aokiji said:


> And you automatically assume he have time to react with 11 guys who's fully capable of keeping up with his speed.
> Examples includes, jimbid saving luffy, law buying time.



I am aware of how well the plot can protect Luffy from death. Keep up with his speed though? I find that statement laughable. We've seen absolutely no evidence of this, nor do we have a reason to believe they are as fast as Kizaru yet. In addition to that, his fruit also makes him a speedster, even among top tiers. Hence the notion that team 2 will be able to pull off any attack before having to immediately shift to a futile defense is also laughable.



Admiral Aokiji said:


> Novas have proven to rise to the challenge think on their feats, survive and thrive in the nw. I have confident with ther intellect to come up with that strategy. And that's just the 100 ways they can win.



Is that code word for "Kizaru decided not to kill/capture them in Sabaody because lelplot"?



Admiral Aokiji said:


> P.S that defense is already proven canon to work. Ask the C3 if you don't believe me.



What?





Oh and this attack I mentioned is spammable. The perks of not having a plot to interfere.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

I'll just wait until someone explains how the Supernovas survive Kizaru spamming YNK for ten days.


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## Luke (Jun 16, 2014)

Apoo one shots him


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Yeah, no. The explosion will literally melt them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course it won't. They'll use their haki to protect themselves against the attack from Kizaru's lasers and Law's room will engulf the entire area on which they're fighting on giving him the ability to switch his allies position to make them dodge the attacks Kizaru will use on them. Besides, Kizaru's lasers take an abundance of charge time, thus the Supernovas will get enough time to out-rightly use their haxxed attacks on him. Your arguments are extremely lacking when you try to make it seem like the Alliance won't be spreading around Kizaru and will just be in front of him to receive any attacks he will dish out at them. They've got Kenbunshoku no haki to dodge Kizaru's lasers that even Luffy had no problems of dodging when he did it with ease against the pacifista's lasers which derive from Kizaru's lasers. King of AOE? Law with his ROOM and others with their haxxed ability will be enough to take care of the admiral. Luffy's jet elephant gatling will cause a considerable amount of damage on Kizaru all the while Law is dishing out his slashes able to slash several mountains at once. Kizaru is not winning against 11 supernovas with the ability to use haki. Kizaru's attacks use a lot of preparation and you're blatantly ignoring the fact that Law and Luffy aren't the only one's fighting Kizaru. Funny how you're not considering the tactics of the remnant Supernovas who'll be there to aid them until Luffy and Law fully unleash their attacks.

You guys make it seem like his speed will be too much for them to react to. They've gotten a boost in speed and power and their CoO will compliment their overall reaction speed to last against Kizaru longer than when they faced him in the pre time skip. Now add 11 Time skip Supernovas of which a few of them are on the level of Luffy and Zoro (possibly above for some) and this goes even more in favor of the Sn11 in winning this match.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Of course it won't. They'll use their haki to protect themselves against the attack from Kizaru's lasers and Law's room will engulf the entire area on which they're fighting on giving him the ability to switch his allies position to make them dodge the attacks Kizaru will use on them. Besides, Kizaru's lasers take an abundance of charge time, thus the Supernovas will get enough time to out-rightly use their haxxed attacks on him. Your arguments are extremely lacking when you try to make it seem like the Alliance won't be spreading around Kizaru and will just be in front of him to receive any attacks he will dish out at them. They've got Kenbunshoku no haki to dodge Kizaru's lasers that even Luffy had no problems of dodging when he did it with ease against the pacifista's lasers which derive from Kizaru's lasers. King of AOE? Law with his ROOM and others with their haxxed ability will be enough to take care of the admiral. Luffy's jet elephant gatling will cause a considerable amount of damage on Kizaru all the while Law is dishing out his slashes able to slash several mountains at once. Kizaru is not winning against 11 supernovas with the ability to use haki. Kizaru's attacks use a lot of preparation and you're blatantly ignoring the fact that Law and Luffy aren't the only one's fighting Kizaru. Funny how you're not considering the tactics of the remnant Supernovas who'll be there to aid them until Luffy and Law fully unleash their attacks.
> 
> You guys make it seem like his speed will be too much for them to react to. They've gotten a boost in speed and power and their CoO will compliment their overall reaction speed to last against Kizaru longer than when they faced him in the pre time skip. Now add 11 Time skip Supernovas of which a few of them are on the level of Luffy and Zoro (possibly above for some) and this goes even more in favor of the Sn11 in winning this match.



Demon Bamboo Vergo couldn't protect from Law's slash. What the fuck are any of the supernovas going to do in the face of Kizaru's haki? I don't think you're properly envisioning the scenario I'm describing to you. 

The fight ensues, and this happens:



Only it doesn't explode way in the distance, it happens right in area of battle. Over, and over, and over again, non-stop. Until all that's left is a puddle of that was once the supernovas. They are not outspeeding this explosion.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> They had just seen Akainu magma fist one of their family, they were fully blood lusted at that point their BH would've been at its best.


Not everyone deals with death the same way. Look at WB and look at Luffy. The commanders were something in between.



> This isn't a mere explosion. This is an extremely powerful fireball that was enough to completely scorch the tree and essentially turn the wood into nothing. And no one in the series has ever been hit by an attack of this scale.


Pell says hi. Besides, wouldn't Kizaru be literally the strongest character ever introduced if what you said could actually happen?

You're describing a scenario where Kizaru attacks 11 people and all these 11 are just standing there waiting to get hit. 

And for those who say oh, Kizaru will spam YGM or whatever, you can't spam shit like that. If you did, they wouldn't have the same destruction as charging then unleashing. You guys make up the best scenarios that fits your argument and go with it as it's a fact. Law has already confirmed that using abilities drain your stamina. without Law confirming it, to think that you can exploit a devil fruit like that? That's just plain stupid cuz Kizaru would literally only need to go above a yonkou crew and shoot his lasers endlessly until they all sink and die.


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## Magician (Jun 16, 2014)

Bonney turns him into an old man eventually.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Demon Bamboo Vergo couldn't protect from Law's slash. What the fuck are any of the supernovas going to do in the face of Kizaru's haki? I don't think you're properly envisioning the scenario I'm describing to you.
> 
> The fight ensues, and this happens:
> 
> ...




The scenario you are describing does not even remotely make sense because it is bias in favor of Kizaru. Vergo had one of the strongest Haki among the fighters in the one piece verse, yet Law, who had only a short period of time to learn Haki still exceeded the level of Haki of Vergo's with his powerful slash that ignores conventional durability in conjunction to his haki. Law cut a confident Vergo's strongest form that consists of his body made entirely out of CoA with ease and without any much impediment which implies that his Haki had exceeded that of Vergo's if he cut his Body like a hot knife through butter. Thus meaning that Law's haki alongside his Slash is at a level at which it supersedes Vergo's Haki by far. And this is someone who's only had 2 years to train his haki. This implies that the Supernovas themselves are not a joke and have the potential to become the strongest fighters in the verse of One piece and their Level of Haki are more or less equal to that of Law. 

Adding 11 of them to fight against one mere admiral is simply too much. Luffy alone can push any admiral to mid diff IMO and i see Kidd, Law, Zoro, Drake, Killer, Hawkins and Appo to be near Luffy's level. Plus we have the other SNs...mid to high diff win for the SN with their massive fire power they can dish out to the admiral.  One laser is not enough to take down the Supernovas, and your original claim was saying that he kicks the ground and they die. How does a laser whose trajectory is heading to the ground kill eleven powerful fighters that are scattered all around Kizaru (and can dishout long range attacks) far away from Kizaru and with the ability to imbue their body with Haki? Kizaru's laser kick takes a plethora of time of charge time and by the time he can use it he'll get attacked by Luffy's Jet elephant gatling, Law mountain level slash and other form of haxxed ability like Bonnie's ability to play with a person's age by being able to either turn them very young or old.


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## Esdese (Jun 16, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Bonney turns him into an old man eventually.



plot twist: He kidnaps Bonney, teleports a few kilometers away. Rapes her into the point of mind break with his light-speed thrusts, asks her to turn him younger and she complies


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Pell says hi.



You're seriously citing the Pell incident as a legitimate feat?



oOLawlietOo said:


> Besides, wouldn't Kizaru be literally the strongest character ever introduced if what you said could actually happen?



Ummm... no? Why do you say that? As logias with monstrous haki, the color trio are broken anyway.



oOLawlietOo said:


> You're describing a scenario where Kizaru attacks 11 people and all these 11 are just standing there waiting to get hit.



They're not standing there, but they might as well be for all they can accomplish in the timeframe it takes for that explosion to go off.

The reason, and I've stated this like a hundred times already, that this scenario would play out, is that Kizaru, his kick, and the explosion that follows are all faster than the supernovas.


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## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

Esdese said:


> plot twist: He kidnaps Bonney, teleports a few kilometers away.* Rapes her into the point of mind break with his light-speed thrusts,* asks her to turn him younger and she complies


     .


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## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Pell says hi. Besides, wouldn't Kizaru be literally the strongest character ever introduced if what you said could actually happen?



Outlier   .


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Where is the disconnect here, where am I not getting through? 

Let me make this easier for you, just follow me here. 

Imagine, hypothetically, that Kizaru can spam an attack that requires each character's *full* commitment to defend against, and is also faster than them. Where, I ask you, does the opportunity present itself for the defenders to do anything?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> You're seriously citing the Pell incident as a legitimate feat?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are you trying to reason with them...?


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## Esdese (Jun 16, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> .



I couldn't resist


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2014)

This is too funny the SN hype is real.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> You're seriously citing the Pell incident as a legitimate feat?


Yeah, people have been using shitty examples too just to support their argument, why can't I do it too. Fight bullshit with bullshit. Your scenario is bullshit <.<



> They're not standing there, but they might as well be for all they can accomplish in the timeframe it takes for that explosion to go off.
> 
> The reason, and I've stated this like a hundred times already, that this scenario would play out, is that Kizaru, his kick, and the explosion that follows are all faster than the supernovas.


Kizar was fighting the fodder commanders of the WBs during MF (Lazy to find the panel, but it's when Jinbei was like they are strong and Kizaru was like oh shit, you guys are scary)

 I didn't see him blitzing anyone or doing as he please. Keep in mind that the SNs should be  A LOT stronger than the lower commanders. Especially the likes of Luffy, kidd and Drake.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

What hypothetical situation is your half asleep brain formulating? Kizaru is not going to beat 11 Supernovas with the ability to use Haki to protect themselves from Attacks or the ability to predict where and when an attack will be used at. They are not like their pre time skip incarnation. They've gotten stronger and can tactically outwit the Admiral with their sheer number. Many of which have haxxed ability that the Admiral would simply not be able to resist against and all have more or less decent speed to not get blitzed like they were by Kizaru in the pre time skip. You're forgetting Kizaru's kick that shattered a mangrove Tree takes a lot of Charge time and I really do not see how how a few lasers from the tip of Kizaru's fingers  are putting down the Supernovas. A few of them will be defeated, that's for sure, although most of them with the ability to dish out island busting feats (elephant gatling gun) and several mountain slashes are going to have sufficient amount of power behind them to critically injure kizaru. Kizaru loses with only high difficulty though.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

Lol charge time. 

Kizaru jumps in the air and blasts them with lasers, none of them can even reach him they die a painful death.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

1) Luffy's Elephant Gatling is *not* island busting.
2) Law's slashes are *not* spammable.
3) Some supernovas are not even remotely powerful/useful.
4) Kizaru's kick takes less charge time than any significant ability on the opposition.
5) You didn't respond to my hypothetical scenario.
6) Stop churning out huge walls of text, or at least separate them into smaller paragraphs.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> 3) Some supernovas are not even remotely powerful/useful.


Exclude Bonney and Capone if you want. The team still wins, and I'm being dead serious right now.

The majority of the team dies though.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> 1) Luffy's Elephant Gatling is *not* island busting.
> 2) Law's slashes are *not* spammable.
> 3) Some supernovas are not even remotely powerful/useful.
> 4) Kizaru's kick takes less charge time than any significant ability on the opposition.
> ...




Stop writing contentless drivel that no one cares about. Quit wanking the admirals and please do not bring your overzealous bias for the admiral to ignore the fact that the supernovas have it in their bag to beat Kizaru. You're pretty annoying when you ignore everything I say. Luffy's elephant gatling destroyed a small island level ship that was noted to have the size capable of destroying fishman island, an island. Law's slashes are spammable. Of course, not the mountain cutting feats of which cut several mountains on the punk hazard island but a few slashes from Law should do noticeable damage to him alongside Xdrake, Luffy and Kidd. Stop trying to impose your superiority over what Oda intended to do with Kizaru who has been shown from time and time again to take an abundance of time to charge his kicks. I never said all the supernovas were all powerful. Most of them are strong and have haxx capable of putting the admiral down like Bonney. They'll still serve as a purpose for the strongest links that the Supernovas consist of to take down the admiral with tactical brilliance and power alone. You did not respond to anything I said. I refuted your asinine hypothetical situation that you took out of the garbage just to try to sell it as jewelry. Stop writing useless texts that amount of nothing but prove your bias for the admirals.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

And caribou, and coribou, and xdrake who has no known range or hax, and Urouge who has no known range or hax (but still solos OP verse), and hawkins who's offense seems to be lacking, and you get the idea. And you still didn't respond to my hypothetical scenario.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Exclude Bonney and Capone if you want. The team still wins, and I'm being dead serious right now.
> 
> The majority of the team dies though.



Let him bask in his own bias and ignorance.. He keeps ignoring the fact that they've got the necessary power and defense to withstand his generic attacks and is outnumbered by sheer strength. When you have TS Luffy who can give a mid difficulty fight to an admiral and the fact that numerous Supernovas are in the same strength tier as Luffy, like X-Drake who's perhaps a little stronger, Law and Kidd, alongside other supernovas that can aid them in offensive capabilities and defensive, Kizaru is not winning as easily as these bias admiral wankers think he is winning.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

How are the supernovas suppose to hurt kizaru when he is way out of their attack range spamming lasers?


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

So wait, you guys claim that Law can't spam his slashes but you are confident enough to claim Kizaru can spam light speed kicks and explosions?


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Imagine, hypothetically, that Kizaru can spam an attack that requires each character's full commitment to defend against, and is also faster than them. Where, I ask you, does the opportunity present itself for the defenders to do anything?



Why can't Kidd block the lasers with his hand? I mean, it's a metal hand. Z did the same thing. You guys are giving ALL the benefit of the doubt to Kizaru and none to the SNs. That is just biased. 

I can bring up more examples like Kidd, but there's no need to make up hypothetical scenarios.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> How are the supernovas suppose to hurt kizaru when he is way out of their attack range spamming lasers?



The SN are as of now at max high VA level, which is still a good bit behind an admiral.
While it sure wont be a stomp, i guess it will still be a High diff win for them.How? Law puts up a Room that engulfs a large portion of the ground on which they're standing on and Luffy, X-drake and Kidd proceed to attack Kizaru with their attacks while Law spams his Slashes that ignore conventional durability in conjunction to his haki to tear through Kizaru's defense while Luffy sets up a GUM GUM JET ELEPHANT GATLING  and uses it towards Kizaru alongside other supernovas that will join in on the fight and aid for offensive purposes. Law can switch the members of the alliance with objects to make them instantaneously vanish to dodge Kizaru's spammable lasers and teleports some of them behind Kizaru like Luffy while he is using Jet elephant gatling. 


Red Hood said:


> Dem Walls of text.



That small text. Doesn't matter.


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## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> *Why can't Kidd block the lasers with his hand? I mean, it's a metal hand. Z did the same thing.* You guys are giving ALL the benefit of the doubt to Kizaru and none to the SNs. That is just biased.



Stahp.   .


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

oh and Jaeden, you never answered my Haki question. Post 188.


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## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> That small text. Doesn't matter.



Im afraid your posts arent doing any better.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> How are the supernovas suppose to hurt kizaru when he is way out of their attack range spamming lasers?


And how are they supposed to tank it when Luffy couldn't even block Hody's bite and Zoro was bleeding despite Issho holding back on him?


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Luffy's elephant gatling destroyed a small island level ship that was noted to have the size capable of destroying fishman island, an island.



Except he didn't destroy it, saying it's the size of an island is incredibly generous, and it's not an island, it's a construction made of wood.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Law's slashes are spammable. Of course, not the mountain cutting feats of which cut several islands on the punk hazard island



I was talking about the mountain ones  
And you meant to say he cut mountains, not islands, right?




Lyrical-Messiah said:


> but a few slashes from Law should do noticeable damage to him alongside Xdrake, Luffy and Kidd.



1) When does he get the opportunity to perform these slashes?
2) How do you know they do noticeable damage?



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Stop trying to impose your superiority over what Oda intended to do with Kizaru who has been shown from time and time again to take an abundance of time to charge his kicks.



Show me a panel that illustrates this "abudance of time to charge."



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> You did not respond to anything I said. I refuted your asinine hypothetical situation that you took out of the garbage just to try to sell it as jewelry.



I have been responding to your posts and I'm doing it again right now. And you never addressed my hypothetical situation.


What I find especially funny is that you're criticizing me for unnecessary text when half of your paragraph is insults and filler. Please stop with the walls.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Alright then, why don't you in details explain to me how Haki interacts with Logias. Tell me how much the difference has to be in Haki so you can actually hit a logia user if that logia user is also a haki user. Do they need exact equal level of Haki? Why don't you answer these questions for me first before claiming like everyone else that Haki will actually protect him.



I don't have an answer to most of these questions. What I do know is that Kizaru's haki is undoubtedly significantly stronger than any of the supernovas'. I'm not saying it would protect against everyone at the same time, but it would do its job against a few people. Keep in my, however, that Kizaru's durability is insane if Akainu's is anything to go off of. He tanked the Marineford splitter to the face and got up and continued fighting with no permanently impairing damage.



oOLawlietOo said:


> vergo's Haki should have protected him against Law's slash, but it didn't. Do we actually know that Law has better CoA? No. Maybe the difference in their Haki wasn't as big as Vergo and Tashigi, and that's why he couldn't block Law's sword like how he blocked Tashigi's.



I don't know who's haki was stronger.



oOLawlietOo said:


> With that being said, The difference between Kizaru's Haki and some of the SNs shouldn't be the same as Vergo and Tashigi, they are the SNs for a reason. Which makes me say they can hit him, not every hit will hit of course, WB couldn't do that either.



I'm not saying they can't hit him, but they won't do any significant damage. Marco's kick did nothing and Rayleigh slashing him only amounted to a scratch on his cheek.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Honestly LM, this is a heated debate, not a flame war. I have not insulted you this whole time (at least I don't think I did) but you seem to be getting your jimmies rustled nonetheless. Is this how you treat people you consider friends?


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> Im afraid your posts arent doing any better.



Post that you make are inferior to what a child can formulate. You claim my posts aren't doing any better, but I can see you're just some petty noob that made an account on this site not to long ago and has no understanding of how a Vs debate match up goes. I did provide evidence to my claims, which is the formal method of debating, whereas you've been spouting utter nonsense.



Kil'jaeden said:


> Except he didn't destroy it, saying it's the size of an island is incredibly generous, and it's not an island, it's a construction made of wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Kind of pathetic how you have to resort to ignore logic just because you know what I have been saying is affecting the credibility of your argument. The size of the ship had the conventional size of what we refer to "Island sized" thus it was the size of a small island. Fish man island, being an island, was noted to almost have been destroyed by the gigantic ship known as Noah because Noah's legitimately  as big as an island. Luffy used his Elephant gatling on the ship and was destroying the ship at such a fast rate because his attack had the power to destroy something of that size. Even though we know Luffy did not destroy it, the Sea kings outright said that Luffy would have destroyed the Island sized Noah had Luffy continued bashing it.

I did say mountains, not islands. Reread my post before trying to Straw man my arguments. His slash was able to overpower Vergo's full body armored haki without much difficulty. They should still be able to do considerable amount of damage on Kizaru. And besides, it's not as though Law won't have the opportunity to utilize the slash he used that cut several mountains. It'll do a lot of damage on Kizaru looking at its destructive capacity. His slashes ignore conventional durability and the level of his Haki is powerful enough to more or less pierce through Kizaru's defense alongside other Supernovas aiding him by which they use their own destructive attacks to do noticeable and considerable Damage on Kizaru; Luffy's island level EGG, Xdrake's attacks and Kidd's attacks with his control over electrons et cetera.

Kizaru's lasers take charge time. Unless you're talking about the lasers he emits from the tip of his fingers, then I'll agree with you here. Although when you bring up the fact that charge time is not a necessity prior to being able to use his lasers from the tips of his fingers, it's irrelevant looking at the durability of each and every one of the supernovas and the fact they can protect themselves from the magnitude of such an attack. What I was trying to bring up was the fact that his lasers similar to the one he used on the mangrove tree takes an abundance of charge time as evidenced by the fact that particles of light were seen forming on the tip of his kick which get bigger each time he charges it. That kick, one of his strongest attacks take charge time.

I did address to your hypothetical situation. It's not even worth addressing to but I've done it from time to time again. Your arguments are worthless, as they do not even address to half of what I've been saying. You've been ignoring facts from what's been written in the manga just to feed your bias for Kizaru by which you ignore the fact that Luffy destroyed a small island level ship regardless if the material is made out of wood or not. The supernovas consist of one of the strongest fighters that have the potential to become the future generation pirate kings yet you're undermining their capabilities.


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## Magician (Jun 16, 2014)

I can supply the same hypothetical scenario to why Kizaru can low diff Rayleigh.

Kizaru can use an opening and go into the air, way out of his attack range and spams lasers until he dies. Rayleigh hasn't shown any air slashes or on panel feats to deal with it, so he loses with Kizaru not being pushed at all.

Based on portrayal Rayleigh should be relatively close to the C3, but based on feats he gets low diffed because he hasn't shown anything on panel besides a sword block and kick in that Kizaru clash, while the C3 had way more fighting screen time in a high octane war where they showed a glimpse of their massive AOE and all that. 

That's why I don't like feat based arguments.

If people actually attempted to look at portrayal and author intent, I doubt you'd come to the conclusion that Kizaru stomps all the supernova's with the easiest of ease.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> I don't have an answer to most of these questions. What I do know is that Kizaru's haki is undoubtedly significantly stronger than any of the supernovas'. I'm not saying it would protect against everyone at the same time, but it would do its job against a few people.



Then you can't claim that Haki will protect him and they can't do jack shit about it, you are not saying that anymore, but I think you and few others were saying that a while ago.



> Keep in my, however, that Kizaru's durability is insane if Akainu's is anything to go off of. He tanked the Marineford splitter to the face and got up and continued fighting with no permanently impairing damage.


I never questioned Kizaru's durability, if you actually read my posts a lot, which I think you do cuz you love me. You'd know that I believe Akainu and Kizaru are dead equal if Kizaru is not slightly stronger. I don't have anything to base this off, but that is what I think.



> I don't know who's haki was stronger.


Then you, just like me don't know how Haki exactly works against other Haki users. Therefore, we should stop making claims like; Haki will protect him. How can we make such a claim when we saw two Haki users fight each other and the outcome didn't make sense cuz the loser looked like he had better Haki (Law vs Vergo).




> I'm not saying they can't hit him, but they won't do any significant damage. Marco's kick did nothing and Rayleigh slashing him only amounted to a scratch on his cheek.


Kizaru was in his light form, so we don't actually know which part of his body Rayleigh tried to slash, but since he got a scar on his cheek, logic says when Kizaru was in light form trying to catch the running SHs, Rayleigh's attack hit his cheek.

If they can hit him, they can do significant damage. If they can hit him, why wouldn't they land their most powerful attacks. Kizaru can't tank a thor into the head, and I'm just using Thor cuz it's the most recent attack I have of Luffy that is strong. Let a lone what a person like Kidd can do. He should be one hell of a monster by now.


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## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> The size of the ship had the conventional size of what we refer to "Island sized" thus it was the size of a small island. Fish man island, being an island, was noted to almost have been destroyed by the gigantic ship known as Noah because Noah's legitimately  as big as an island.



As I recall, both the size of the ship and the size of fishman island were incredibly inconsistent. Would you care to provide for what constitutes "island size"?



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Luffy used his Elephant gatling on the ship and was destroying the ship at such a fast rate because his attack had the power to destroy something of that size. Even though we know Luffy did not destroy it, the Sea kings outright said that Luffy would have destroyed the Island sized Noah had Luffy continued bashing it.



1) It still doesn't make it an island. An island is made or dense rock and earth, and not pieces of wood bolted together.
2) This attack is extremely slow and requires multiple hits, being overall incredibly inefficient versus smaller, faster enemies.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> His slash was able to overpower Vergo's full body armored haki without much difficulty.



The degree of difficulty is unknown.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> They should still be able to do considerable amount of damage on Kizaru. And besides, it's not as though Law won't have the opportunity to utilize the slash he used that cut several mountains. It'll do a lot of damage on Kizaru looking at its destructive capacity. His slashes ignore conventional durability and the level of his Haki is powerful enough to more or less pierce through Kizaru's defense alongside other Supernovas aiding him by which they use their own destructive attacks to do noticeable and considerable Damage on Kizaru; Luffy's island level EGG, Xdrake's attacks and Kidd's attacks with his control over electrons et cetera.



These paragraphs are becoming harder to understand.

Anyway, like you said, it ignores conventional durability, but it also does not do conventional damage. As you recall, being split in half in "room" is not as dangerous as being split in half outside it.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Kizaru's lasers take charge time. Unless you're talking about the lasers he emits from the tip of his fingers, then I'll agree with you here. Although when you bring up the fact that charge time is not a necessity prior to being able to use his lasers from the tips of his fingers, it's irrelevant looking at the durability of each and every one of the supernovas and the fact they can protect themselves from the magnitude of such an attack. What I was trying to bring up was the fact that his lasers similar to the one he used on the mangrove tree takes an abundance of charge time as evidenced by the fact that particles of light were seen forming on the tip of his kick which get bigger each time he charges it. That kick, one of his strongest attacks take charge time.



The timeframe you have given me is non-existent. Again find me a panel that illustrates the abundance of charge time.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> I did address to your hypothetical situation. It's not even worth addressing to but I've done it from time to time again.



Show me the exact post where you address my scenario.



Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Your arguments are worthless, as they do not even address to half of what I've been saying. You've been ignoring facts from what's been written in the manga just to feed your bias for Kizaru by which you ignore the fact that Luffy destroyed a small island level ship regardless if the material is made out of wood or not. The supernovas consist of one of the strongest fighters that have the potential to become the future generation pirate kings yet you're undermining their capabilities.



2irony4me


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Also, Lyrical Messiah is just an advanced troll. Just ignore list him and be on your way.



Then why did he add me to his friends? 



oOLawlietOo said:


> Kizaru was in his light form, so we don't actually know which part of his body Rayleigh tried to slash, but since he got a scar on his cheek, logic says when Kizaru was in light form trying to catch the running SHs, Rayleigh's attack hit his cheek.





If this doesn't convince you I don't know what will. Even in-verse characters were perplexed.



oOLawlietOo said:


> If they can hit him, they can do significant damage. If they can hit him, why wouldn't they land their most powerful attacks. Kizaru can't tank a thor into the head, and I'm just using Thor cuz it's the most recent attack I have of Luffy that is strong. Let a lone what a person like Kidd can do. He should be one hell of a monster by now.



Pretty sure Thor is non canon.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Well I didn't know who the fuck he was.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> If this doesn't convince you I don't know what will. Even in-verse characters were perplexed.


I'm not sure what are you trying to say with that panel though. 



> Pretty sure Thor is non canon.


ok,elephant Gun.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> I can supply the same hypothetical scenario to why Kizaru can low diff Rayleigh.
> 
> Kizaru can use an opening and go into the air, way out of his attack range and spams lasers until he dies. Rayleigh hasn't shown any air slashes or on panel feats to deal with it, so he loses with Kizaru not being pushed at all.
> 
> ...


Lol no feat wise Rayleigh swats the lasers away with his sword and easily dodges any explosions. 

He fought kizaru for a extended time and blocked multiple light sword slashes from him. Kizarus laser spam is doing shit.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

> Lol no feat wise Rayleigh swats the lasers away with his sword and easily dodges any explosions.


Yeah, so Rayleigh can block the lasers with his thin sword. but Kidd can't make a huge metal hand and do the same. Awesome.



> He fought kizaru for a extended time and blocked multiple light sword slashes from him


100% sure Zoro can fight Kizaru for an extended time and block multiple light sword slashes from him too.


----------



## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Well I didn't know who the fuck he was.



You arent helping your case bro.:ignoramus
Learn from your mistakes..
Just put him on super ignore.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Yeah, so Rayleigh can block the lasers with his thin sword. but Kidd can't make a huge metal hand and do the same. Awesome.
> 
> 
> 100% sure Zoro can fight Kizaru for an extended time and block multiple light sword slashes from him too.



His  sword is irrelevant Rayleigh could swat them away with his hand..

Zoro gets blitzed and cut in half.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm not sure what are you trying to say with that panel though.



Perhaps that would've been a better suited response for your previous paragraph. What I was trying to say was Aokiji had no trouble protecting from a user who's haki was _superior_, for all we know. So it's not looking good for the supernova's


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> As I recall, both the size of the ship and the size of fishman island were incredibly inconsistent. Would you care to provide for what constitutes "island size"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Does not matter. There is no point in trying to find the size of Noah when Oda himself outrightly stated that it was as big as an island. More evidence to my claim is the fact that it would have completely destroyed fish man island upon contact which only an island sized object is capable of such a feat when moving at such speed. Would you be willing to bring these "Inconsistencies" instead of rambling on about how Luffy never actually destroyed an island sized ship when in actuality it was stated by the seakings spoken through Oda himself that he would have destroyed the island sized.  

And even if you attempt to grasp at straws to try to rule out the fact that Noah is not island sized, it's still island sized and Luffy's elephant gatling gun, an ability weaker than his jet elephant gatling gun due to it having less velocity thus less power, was able to smash half of it, albeit he was not able to completely destroy it because the Sea kings took it away from him before he could continue completely destroying it.  I do not believe you understand the way in which we can refer to something as "Island sized" The term island sized is given to an object or a thing that has the same size as that of the conventional size of an island. 

The convenient size an island must be must firstly be fairly large. However, There is no firm rule; the definition is mostly based on historical convention.  Greenland is often considered the largest island and Australia the smallest continent, so the best we can do at present is "larger than Greenland and smaller than Australia". Fish man island itself is as big as an island when we quantify the accurate size something must have to be considered as an island. Thus, the ship Noah that was noted to being able to destroy Fish-man is most definitely an island because of its size and due to the author stating it to be an island. Luffy used EGG to destroy it and it was stated by the seakings that he would have destroyed it. Nothing more, nothing less.

How is EGG slow? Elephant gatling gun is by no means slow. It was able to destroy an island sized ship in a short amount of time. Now, if Luffy uses the Jet elephant gatling gun, the speed not only doubles, but its power becomes more devastating. Kizaru won't just be concentrating on Law, as he has to worry about other potential threats of the members that the supernova consists of whose ability are very versatile and haxed. Keep in mind They're fighting inside the dome Law created with his ability, which he can manipulate objects by switching them with the members of the supernova to avoid them getting injured and to switch their location to make them appear behind Kizaru for more ease in injuring the guy.

Law's ability ignores conventional durability and in conjunction to his haki, it'll do damage on Kizaru and it isn't like Kizaru will know which part of his body to imbue with Haki. His ability can generate enough force to cut several mountains and a vice admiral's body with one of the strongest Haki known to the one piece universe. He'll also have to worry about Kidd, X-drake, Hawkins, Boonie, especially Apoo who can imbue his sound waves  with haki to do the same damage he did on kizaru in the pre time skip where he decapitated Kizaru's body in two. Now imagine Apoo utilizing the same attack but with haki this time. I really do not see how Kizaru's Haki can withstand the combined force of several strong fighters with the ability to use Haki.

What do you mean time frame? Check the anime itself. Kizaru was seen charging his kick when he first demonstrated it upon his arrival on the island. You could see small particles of light charging up accumulating energy on the tip of his foot. Only attacks that do not require charge time are his finger beam because they don't require much energy to be used. It's similar with the pacifista's; when they're about to shoot lasers, they charge the lasers in their mouths.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

Aokiji's haki basically made it look like Whitebeard didn't even use haki.



Yeah LM I'm not reading that. I'm going to choose to believe YM and say you're just trolling me at this point. Though it's surprising, since trolls don't usually resort to such insults.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> You arent helping your case bro.:ignoramus
> Learn from your mistakes..
> Just put him on super ignore.



Yeah, putting you in my ignore list would benefit me in many ways. Just because I think Sn11 >kizaru does not make me a troll


----------



## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

I think he dispersed his body beforehand or something. Not too sure about that scene tbh.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Aokiji's haki basically made it look like Whitebeard didn't even use haki.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah LM I'm not reading that. I'm going to choose to believe YM and say you're just trolling me at this point. Though it's surprising, since trolls don't usually resort to such insults.



Aokiji created a whole inside his body to prevent Whitebeard's saber from injuring him, otherwise Whitebeard's bisento would have gutted him. 

I am not trolling, you're the one who ceases to understand how Kizaru is not going to beat the time skip supernovas and how their combined fire power are simply too much for him. Calling me a troll will amount to nothing because I haven't been doing anything nearly close to trolling. I am surprised you didn't use the argument that you'd love to cuddle with Bonnie's childish form.


----------



## Krippy (Jun 16, 2014)

Kiz takes scenario 1 with high diff while Apoo solos scenario 2.


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## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> Perhaps that would've been a better suited response for your previous paragraph. What I was trying to say was Aokiji had no trouble protecting from a user who's haki was _superior_, for all we know. So it's not looking good for the supernova's



Yet, both Marco and Jozu were able to hit Aokiji. Do they have superior Haki to their own captain? doubt it. Then how did Aokiji avoid getting stabbed?  he made a hole in his body? I don't know, but since there are evidence that supports what you're saying and there are some that disapproves it, you can't use the one that supports your argument and disapprove the others.


----------



## Kaiser (Jun 16, 2014)

Why are people saying Apoo solos scenario 2? Kizaru loses badly both scenarios though


----------



## Krippy (Jun 16, 2014)

Blake said:


> Why are people saying Apoo solos scenario 2? Kizaru loses badly both scenarios though





Apoo >> ur fave


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 16, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Apoo >> ur fave




And Kizaru >> Apoo.


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## NO (Jun 16, 2014)

Until you can provide those citations, I've won this debate.

Over.


----------



## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> 1-He kicked Kizaru's  arm and sent him flying into a building, he hurt an admiral.



He sent Kizaru flying but while he was in light form, hence the "explosion". Kizaru emerged a second later perfectly unharmed.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He sent Kizaru flying but while he was in light form, hence the "explosion". Kizaru emerged a second later perfectly unharmed.



his arm got kicked so hard, and he hit a building. No need for grave injuries for us to say he was hurt. He doesn't have to scream "I'M HURT". He doesn't have to show it either. I'm not saying he was damaged a lot, it was nothing but a mere kick. But he was hurt.

Hurt goes from 1-100 depending on how much damage you got.


----------



## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> his arm got kicked so hard, and he hit a building. No need for grave injuries for us to say he was hurt. He doesn't have to scream "I'M HURT". He doesn't have to show it either. I'm not saying he was damaged a lot, it was nothing but a mere kick. But he was hurt.



If he doesnt show any signs of being hurt, then the kick didnt do shit.


----------



## Krippy (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Good to see you finally posting on the OL Kripster.


Thought this place could use some kwality 


Issho D Tea said:


> And Kizaru >> Apoo.



Tanked it


----------



## NO (Jun 16, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> That is another thread entirely. One that is more cancerous than this one. Anyway, people started using outliers, bullshit and other means to claim how the Supernovas would win. Which lead to recent events.


Stop lying. 

Absolutely nobody used outliers or bullshit. You spent the majority of your time laughing at people and spamming than actually being constructive.

I asked for proof on how Kizaru has
- better speed than post-skip SN
- better haki than post-skip SN

and you, nor could anybody else in this thread, could not provide any citations, DESPITE being asked dozens of times. This is as simple as it gets. 

The bottom line is you can not use lies in a debate so using Kizaru's speed and haki as a defense for being superior when it can not be proven is just presumptuous, childish, and fallacious.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> That is another thread entirely. One that is more cancerous than this one. Anyway, people started using outliers, bullshit and other means to claim how the Supernovas would win. Which lead to recent events.



Outlier in the case of Pell I can understand as being Wrong. Pell surviving it is very idiotic considering he's very weak. But that was in an early stage of the story so I can't blame said member for using it.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Correction; he hit a building in his _intangible form_.



Never said he wasn't. But explosions should still hurt to a certain degree. Otherwise he wouldn't have to try and run from Z when he went mad and tried using one of those bombs he had. But again, it's his own element, so I don't know.


----------



## Zeno (Jun 16, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Stop lying.
> 
> Absolutely nobody used outliers or bullshit. You spent the majority of your time laughing at people and spamming than actually being constructive.
> 
> ...



It's a logical assumption that he's faster since he's a top tier and he has the light fruit. As for Haki, I once again invoke the Aokiji example, defending against WB's slash.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Perhaps inconsistent, but it doesn't mean the magnitude of such an attack, brilliant punk, should have knocked out crocodile right away. Crocodile was a tough opponent and only lost by having been punched several times by Luffy in more than just one occasion in which they confronted one another. Anyways, just roll with it. Oda often makes these kind of mistakes unintentionally.


----------



## Shanks (Jun 16, 2014)

Aokiji made hole in his body to avoid being stab by wb.

kizaru is the fastest, but Marco, Ray and other admirals should be able to
Keep up with him in an extended fight, despite technically slower. Both Jimbie, Zoro and Law have shown to be able To keep up for an admiral speed, there fore kizaru would not be able to outclass these guys speed wise. Kizaru have only ever shown to blitz mid - tier and below, therefore where people get the idea that he can completely outclass these guys with speed in 11 v 1 is bothering.


----------



## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Never said he wasn't. But explosions should still hurt to a certain degree.



We've seen that Logias are completely immune to damage unless it has Haki, Kairoseki or has to do with their elemental weakness.



> Otherwise he wouldn't have to try and run from Z when he went mad and tried using one of those bombs he had. But again, it's his own element, so I don't know.



Film Z was non-canon. :ignoramus


----------



## Firo (Jun 16, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> It's a logical assumption that he's faster since he's a top tier and he has the light fruit. As for Haki, I once again invoke the Aokiji example, defending against WB's slash.



He tangoed evenly with Rayleigh. That shows his speed> any supernova
Not like we needed clarification anyway. But some people lack comprehension.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 16, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Aokiji made hole in his body to avoid being stab by wb.
> 
> kizaru is the fastest, but Marco, Ray and other admirals should be able to
> Keep up with him in an extended fight, despite technically slower. Both Jimbie, Zoro and Law have shown to be able To keep up for an admiral speed, there fore kizaru would not be able to outclass these guys speed wise. Kizaru have only ever shown to blitz mid - tier and below, therefore where people get the idea that he can completely outclass these guys with speed in 11 v 1 is bothering.



This sums it up perfectly.


----------



## GIORNO (Jun 16, 2014)

Did I just read someone use non-canon to prove a point? That's a new low.


----------



## NO (Jun 17, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> It's a logical assumption that he's faster since he's a top tier and he has the light fruit. As for Haki, I once again invoke the Aokiji example, defending against WB's slash.


Top tier is a fan made term. Your argument there was basically because fans said he was a fast character, it's true? Horrible.

Again, that haki example still doesn't correlate to the post-skip SN.


Red Hood said:


> For one, I never even conversed with you
> You could read Lawliets post about " fighting bullshit with bullshit for the Outliers and whatnot "
> And for your ludicrous questions...
> - Kizaru is faster than any novas by virtue of his ability and has top tier reactions even without using it
> -Kizaru stopped WB's shockwave along with the other admirals


What do those have to do with the supernova? You call the questions ludicrous but you've still provided NO relevant citations.
---

*It's clear who the winners in this discussion are.* I ask for evidence; the Kizaru side gives me opinion, lies, trolling, and personal insults. I ask for evidence a dozen times after that; the Kizaru side still fails to cite themselves and entertains everyone else by self-proclaiming themselves the winners.

This is what has happened: Your side has lost this battle, plain and simple. You all failed to comply to a simple debate prerequisite and instead abused ad hominem. You can not cite any correlation between the post-skip SN and Kizaru but you still believe so. I asked you all to simply convince me with manga canon and you defended this opinion by bringing up irrelevant feats and fan-made terms like "top tier".

If you can find the evidence to support your claims - which you won't, because I read this manga too - then send me a PM. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread. But one last time:

Pre-skip Supernova, replacing all pre-skip SN with post-skip SN that have feats, take Kizaru low-diff with a plan, mid diff without. Out.


----------



## Firo (Jun 17, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Top tier is a fan made term.


:heston


> What do those have to do with the supernova?


They dont have feats on that level.

- Kizaru used Haki to fend off Whitebeard's attack shows a greater Haki feat than any supernova has
- Kizaru trading blows with someone with rayleigh shows superior speed and strength to any nova


> You call the questions ludicrous but you've still provided NO relevant citations.
> ---


Fuckin lel



> I ask for evidence;


I stiill find it hilarious that you claim that i was igoring your posts despite me not even talking to you before in this thread. Either you cant read or you're seeing shit.



> the Kizaru side gives me opinion, lies, trolling, and personal insults. I ask for evidence a dozen times after that; the Kizaru side still fails to cite themselves and entertains everyone else by self-proclaiming themselves the winners.


I actually dont give a damn who wins this fight. But claiming the supernovas have similar stats to an admiral is just awful.
That and  I mocked posters for using outliers and other ridiculous arguments to support their claims.




> This is what has happened: Your side has lost this battle, plain and simple. You all failed to comply to a simple debate prerequisite and instead abused ad hominem.


You are accusing others of biased claims when you state that you think the SN have similar if not greater stats to a top tier?


> You can not cite any correlation between the post-skip SN and Kizaru but you still believe so. I asked you all to simply convince me with manga canon and you defended this opinion by bringing up irrelevant feats and fan-made terms like "top tier".


Irrelevant feats? Are you shitting me?



> If you can find the evidence to support your claims, send me a PM. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread. But one last time:


LelNo


> Pre-skip Supernova, replacing all pre-skip SN with post-skip SN that have feats, take Kizaru low-diff with a plan, mid diff without. Out.



Another one added to super ignore.


----------



## Shanks (Jun 17, 2014)

^ You're arguing like this was a gauntlet.


----------



## Firo (Jun 17, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> ^ You're arguing like this was a gauntlet.



Wait What?


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> Did I just read someone use non-canon to prove a point? That's a new low.



Oda helps making these movies. If you wanna try and embarrass me you have to try a little bit harder buddy.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Oda helps making these movies. If you wanna try and embarrass me you have to try a little bit harder buddy.



It's considered non-canon because Oda himself didn't write the script/plot/fights etc,. Zephyr is canon because he's in Volume 1000, which Oda personally wrote. 

Otherwise, Luffy is on Kizaru's level or even above.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It's considered non-canon because Oda himself didn't write the script/plot/fights etc,. Zephyr is canon because he's in Volume 1000, which Oda personally wrote.
> 
> Otherwise, Luffy is on Kizaru's level or even above.



Do you even know what I was trying to say when I brought up the movie? or you are just like the majority who heard movie/non-canon and went crazy


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Do you even know what I was trying to say when I brought up the movie?



No and I don't think you do either.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> No and I don't think you do either.



oh yeah I don't.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Do you even know what I was trying to say when I brought up the movie? or you are just like the majority who heard movie/non-canon and went crazy



Don't listen to esdese, thirsty fucker, or Starkiller, they're both wrong in this case.



Esdese said:


> HAH, LOL why the profanity? Rustled much




Pretty sure the idiot would be you when you can't refute his point without having to resort to personal attacks. Failure to hold a conversation is something you occasionally do.


----------



## trance (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> oh yeah I don't.



Good to know.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> oh yeah I don't.



Any movies made from oda are cannon. Anything Oda gets involve in when it comes to story and movie definitely makes it cannon

They are as canon as it gets; at least Strong World is. The manga has mentioned Shiki in regards to him escaping long before the movie came out; the story was movie-fied because Oda simply couldn't squeeze the Strong World story in without dragging the pace of the story down any further. Additionally, it simply works well as a movie, and it allowed him to focus on Ace' story. Since Oda intended to put it in the manga originally but wasn't able to, I consider it very much canon.

Z however I haven't seen mentioned in the manga. However, from what I understand from a post on a certain site, the movie does give a lot of information about the manga plot that will likely pop up in the manga in due time anyhow. So it isn't like there is a lack of a connection to the manga, either.

Since Oda has been involved with both, I'll call them canon. Sure, maybe some transitions aren't perfect, but let's be really damn honest here: if there was a smooth transition they would make for bad movies and disappointed anime/manga viewers who feel left out. Think of it as the switch the anime has pulled with the Lily Enstomach filler arc, which has been somewhat neatly squashed inbetween FI and PH: it is done that way so people don't go 'wtf is going on here' when they get their One Piece fix through the animated medium.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

> It's considered non-canon because Oda himself didn't write the script/plot/fights etc,. Zephyr is canon because he's in Volume 1000, which Oda personally wrote.





> Viz Media's Shonen Jump and Hisashi Suzuki, deputy director of Shueisha's Shonen manga group announced through their Twitter accounts that Eiichiro Oda would be the executive producer for the film.





> Otherwise, Luffy is on Kizaru's level or even above.


lol no. Go watch Kizaru vs Z and go watch Luffy vs Z.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was being sarcastic when I answered him.  We weren't talking about what canon is, he was saying I don't even know why I brought up the whole Z movie into my argument, but yeah I guess I don't, I brought it up just because...


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I was being sarcastic when I answered him.  We weren't talking about what canon is, he was saying I don't even know why I brought up the whole Z movie into my argument, but yeah I guess I don't, I brought it up just because...



Wait, I was agreeing with you when you said Movie z was cannon, so why are you using ''" at me when I was defending you?


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Wait, I was agreeing with you when you said Movie z was cannon, so why are you using ''" at me when I was defending you?



I'm not -.- Go read my post again, now I'll use it on you  <.<


----------



## Snowless (Jun 17, 2014)

I got tired of reading this thread after 6 or 7 pages, so, here is a possible scenario in which the Supernovas could win:

*Law:* Uses his ability solely for evasion. Moves the supernovas around his room as needed to avoid  any of Kizaru's attacks. Also, whenever he doesn't need to use his ability for dodging, he extends his room to include Kizaru and moves Kizaru into the center of the room, giving a chance for the close-combat fighters. Can also move projectiles back into the path of hitting Kizaru, if Kizaru moves out of the way.

*Killer:* Uses his acrobatics to dodge Kizaru's attacks, and attacks Kizaru with Armament Haki-infused spinning blades whenever he gets the chance.

*Kidd:* Obviously has guns and can use any bits of metal for ranged combat attacks. His attacks are arguably even more versatile, because he can do things like bend the trajectory the the bullets. This could also work with Capone's cannon balls. He can also mess around with Kizaru's sunglasses, and jab him in the eye, temporarily blinding him. He can also move the Den Den Mushi on Kizaru's arm around, potentially giving him control of Kizaru's arm for a short while, until he counters.

*Capone: *Has the power to summon an army, which could catch Kizaru by surprise. Also can just shoot cannonballs, hitting Kizaru even when he's ranged.

*Urouge: *Can just bulk up and overpower him with armament Haki and if he has his pillar, he can use that to fight with a bit more range or throw it. Could work well with Law's ability, getting him in range.

*Hawkins: *Can potentially soak up damage, taking kill-shots for other people, as he has several lives. Can use his prediction abilities to help determine the outcome of certain aspects of the battle. Also, his straw form will likely be of some help, but that's a variable element.

*Zoro: *Can send flying slashes at Kizaru if he's ranged. Could use his whirlwind attack to block Kizaru's vision or disorient him. Can attack normally whenever he gets the chance. Asura mode would help, too.

*Apoo: *Apoo showed he had the ability to fuck up Kizaru from a range. Law can keep Apoo save while he's playing his instruments to attack Kizaru. This will absolutely wreck him in the non intangible scenario, and still do damage/give opportunity to others to do damage in the first scenario.

*Luffy:* Obviously adept at Haki and a versatile fighter. Can fight from a range because of his stretching ability and can do things like spam Elephant Gattling while in G2 to maximize damage output, when Kizaru is dealing with the rest of the Supernovas.

*X Drake: *As Urouge, is limited to physical fighting, but has a lot of damage potential, because he can transform into a T rex. Will also require Law's help to be able to hit him, most likely, but that's why this is a team effort.

*Bonney: *The biggest unknown. Who's to say she couldn't make Kizaru younger or older and make this a much easier match for the rest of them? I doubt her ability will just be useless on Kizaru, as it seems hax as hell, and even if its not effective as it was against those fodder marines, it should still do something worthwhile.




And you're telling me that between all of that once, Kizaru's still just going to stomp them?


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm not -.- Go read my post again, now I'll use it on you  <.<



Ah, I see, my mistake then.

But I don't know how in the hell do you expect me to understand you were speaking in a sarcastic tone when half of your posts said you thought movie z was cannon, so you using it on me is ironic when you're trying to backpedal from your own mistake. Therefore, you deserve a , and another one


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

And I don't necessarily believe the movie is canon. I believe some aspects of it are canon, not the whole thing though. But yeah I get what you're saying.


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## Esdese (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> And I don't necessarily believe the movie is canon. I believe some aspects of it are canon, not the whole thing though. But yeah I get what you're saying.



Yes the timeline is Canon and that's the only thing IIRC. Everything else is fabricated BS


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> And I don't necessarily believe the movie is canon. I believe some aspects of it are canon, not the whole thing though. But yeah I get what you're saying.



One question, I know this is random but does this section have a legit moderator who's active?


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Snowless for the rescue, I got tired.


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## GIORNO (Jun 17, 2014)

So the SN are faster than Kizaru even though Kizaru at a bare minimum is equal to Luffy in speed via scaling?

Let alone they don't even have the durability to withstand his attacks because his attacks are greater than they're capable of thinking in addition to him being able to spam these at an incredible rate on a flat surface where they have nowhere to hide?

This isn't even factoring in Logia dispersion which is automatic to him and Haki which he is far greater in thus making their DF abilities virtually useless?

In the second scenario his intangibility is off, but he can still disperse himself which he does reflexively.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> One question, I know this is random but does this section have a legit moderator who's active?



Strawhat4life. I don't know where he is he just shows up when shit hits the fan.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Esdese said:


> Yes the timeline is Canon and that's the only thing IIRC. Everything else is fabricated BS



Zypher is also canon. The history is canon, he was said to train almost every VA we know including Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu I believe. He was the person who put our new 7th warlord in Implde Down.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Here we go with he can spam his shit again. This is not a game for god's sake, you can't spam shit without getting tired.


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## Esdese (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> *Zypher is also canon. The history is canon, *.



Yes I agree with the bold , but any feat, etc... is not so it does not count


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

Any feats? Why not?  Zephyr fought with Kizaru directly on panel so I don't see how you can rule out the feats shown in the movie.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Oh so you're gonna count what you want and dismiss what you don't like. Glad to know.


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## Esdese (Jun 17, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Any feats? Why not?  *Zephyr fought with Kizaru directly on panel *so I don't see how you can rule out the feats shown in the movie.



Link me said panel


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

Esdese said:


> Link me said panel



When I say on panel, I meant in the movie, smart one 

I remember telling you your English comprehension was absurd in that one thread. I guess your constant showing of your low comprehension level each time you post attests to what I had stated in that one thread


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## Esdese (Jun 17, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> When I say on panel, I meant in the movie, smart one



so you have nothing


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

Esdese said:


> so you have nothing



Because you're thinking of something entirely different than what my post was insinuating by trying to distort what I meant


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## Snowless (Jun 17, 2014)

нιѕσкα said:


> So the SN are faster than Kizaru even though Kizaru at a bare minimum is equal to Luffy in speed via scaling?
> 
> Let alone they don't even have the durability to withstand his attacks because his attacks are greater than they're capable of thinking in addition to him being able to spam these at an incredible rate on a flat surface where they have nowhere to hide?
> 
> ...



They don't have to be faster. Luffy is probably close with G2 speed, but Law can essentially teleport any of them anywhere in his room. He alone almost negates the factor of speed.

He's facing eleven people at once. They can attack him from multiple directions. It's not as straightforward as you're putting it where he can just spam Yatagami and kill them all. As I've said, Hawkins can predict his moves, Law can move everyone around to dodge accordingly, and then the rest can attack. Capone can shoot cannonballs and Kidd can make them heat-seeking. Kizaru's not going to have this huge abundance of time to just sit and shoot them all down, without having to worry about dodging, himself.

And I don't believe his Haki is going to make their DF abilities useless. You're saying they're not going to be able to get any damage on him, at all? I just don't believe that. They're called the Worst Generation for a reason. They're not nobodies with shit armament Haki. 

And he can't disperse in the second scenario? That would kind of destroy the point of intangibility being off, wouldn't it? And even if he could, are you arguing that they couldn't so much as land a blow?


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

^word. 
______


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## Amol (Jun 17, 2014)

Snowless said:


> They don't have to be faster. Luffy is probably close with G2 speed, but Law can essentially teleport any of them anywhere in his room. He alone almost negates the factor of speed.
> 
> He's facing eleven people at once. They can attack him from multiple directions. It's not as straightforward as you're putting it where he can just spam Yatagami and kill them all. As I've said, Hawkins can predict his moves, Law can move everyone around to dodge accordingly, and then the rest can attack. Capone can shoot cannonballs and Kidd can make them heat-seeking. Kizaru's not going to have this huge abundance of time to just sit and shoot them all down, without having to worry about dodging, himself.
> 
> ...



Snowless, my friend I argued with them, got tired . oOLawlietOo argued with them , got tired . All they told that since Kizaru is Admiral (Top-tier ) he wins automatically. Kizaru can fight each and every other high tier and he can still win with no diff. I mean good plan and team work means nothing when Kizaru has 'lol light speed kicks' . Obviously you need exactly same amount of Haki to fight him but then if any of them has similar level of Haki why would whole team fight. 

It itself beg a question that how big gap between a top tier and a high tier is ? 

Since group of this many high tiers according to many members can't even present a fight. Kizaru can just lol YMM them and they dies. As pathetic as that. There is something serious wrong with power levels of One Piece if this is the case because currently SN's are trying to bring Yonkou down .
After all first mate of any Yonkou can solo all of them together if we go by this thread.
Only Oda can tell .


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

Amol said:


> Snowless, my friend I argued with them, got tired . oOLawlietOo argued with them , got tired . All they told that since Kizaru is Admiral (Top-tier ) he wins automatically. Kizaru can fight each and every other high tier and he can still win with no diff. I mean good plan and team work means nothing when Kizaru has 'lol light speed kicks' . Obviously you need exactly same amount of Haki to fight him but then if any of them has similar level of Haki why would whole team fight.
> 
> It itself beg a question that how big gap between a top tier and a high tier is ?
> 
> ...




You didn't mention me as someone that tried fervently to debunk their nonsense 

And nicely put! Especially the part that you brought that says they're trying to bring down a yonkou with only two pairs of each of the Sn11. Now add 11 of them and it would go in their favor with more succession.


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## Shanks (Jun 17, 2014)

Good post *Snowless*, but you forgot that these guys can combine haki (just like MF C3) to increase their overall defensive or offensive. 3 guys combining their haki should be enough to shield everyone of light spamming, while Law teleports to shambles Kizaru's heart or something.


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 17, 2014)

The notion that the twelve supernova's combined couldn't  overcome a single Admiral seems ludicrous to me. Just Luffy, Law and Kidd should be able to push Kizaru to very high difficulty. Add in the others and this becomes too much power and hax for even Kizaru to overcome. 

Also stay on topic and avoid these petty insults.  If another thread derails in this way again then it won't be mere warnings that get distributed.


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## Zeno (Jun 17, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> The notion that the twelve supernova's combined couldn't  overcome a single Admiral seems ludicrous to me. Just Luffy, Law and Kidd should be able to push Kizaru to very high difficulty. Add in the others and this becomes too much power and hax for even Kizaru to overcome.



You forget that a lot of these supernovas are going to be pretty useless in this fight.



jayjay32 said:


> Top tier is a fan made term. Your argument there was basically because fans said he was a fast character, it's true? Horrible.



So you're saying the post skip SN are as fast as Admiral _Kizaru_? Clearly I'm not going to get anywhere with you.



jayjay32 said:


> Again, that haki example still doesn't correlate to the post-skip SN.



Unless the SN have stronger haki than WB, Marco, and Jozu, who's interactions with the admirals we do have, I'm afraid the example does correlate.



Snowless said:


> I got tired of reading this thread after 6 or 7 pages, so, here is a possible scenario in which the Supernovas could win:
> 
> *Law:* Uses his ability solely for evasion. Moves the supernovas around his room as needed to avoid  any of Kizaru's attacks. Also, whenever he doesn't need to use his ability for dodging, he extends his room to include Kizaru and moves Kizaru into the center of the room, giving a chance for the close-combat fighters. Can also move projectiles back into the path of hitting Kizaru, if Kizaru moves out of the way.
> 
> ...




I have a question. At what point do all of these attacks amount to a fraction of the island splitter that failed to take Akainu out of the fight?


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## Luke (Jun 17, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> The notion that the twelve supernova's combined couldn't  overcome a single Admiral seems ludicrous to me. Just Luffy, Law and Kidd should be able to push Kizaru to very high difficulty. Add in the others and this becomes too much power and hax for even Kizaru to overcome. .



THANK. YOU.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 17, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> The notion that the twelve supernova's combined couldn't  overcome a single Admiral seems ludicrous to me. Just Luffy, Law and Kidd should be able to push Kizaru to very high difficulty. Add in the others and this becomes too much power and hax for even Kizaru to overcome.



When four supernovas pre TS essentially got ROFLstomped (and genuinely in the truest form of that word) by Kizaru it really isn't as ludicrous a notion as you and others make out. When the gap was shown to be so gigantic pre TS, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that two years isn't sufficient to overcome that. 

Let's take a two step approach to looking at this:

*1) How would eleven pre TS supernovas together have handled Kizaru?

*In my eyes, not much better. Maybe Luffy, Law and Kidd could have forced him to take it semi seriously and not goof around but it still would have been the lowest of low difficulties especially considering the lack of good haki among the SN's at that stage. 


*2) Would the two year TS be sufficient enough to bridge this gap?

*Now assuming the SN's have improved and accordingly developed haki things will obviously be more difficult for Kizaru. We haven't seen the supernovas after the TS and even Luffy and Zoro haven't really gone all out so most of the debate will be based on speculation on either side. But as I alluded to earlier the gap was just so huge pre skip which is something I can't see realistically being overcome with just two years of training/adventuring. I think more time and experience is needed before the supernovas can do it.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

> But as I alluded to earlier the gap was just so huge pre skip which is something I can't see realistically being overcome with just two years of training/adventuring. I think more time and experience is needed before the supernovas can do it.


You are comparing the gap between Kizaru and the Supernovas as individuals. This is not a 1 vs 1 fight, this is 11 people vs one guy. I know  that's not what you're trying to say, but you're categorizing them as a group, but you're still talking about individual strength. 

If we're talking about the gap between Kizaru and any of the SNs individually, then yes; Kizaru is ahead by few miles, but again; this is not a 1 vs 1, this is 11 vs 1.


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## Canute87 (Jun 17, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> The notion that the twelve supernova's combined couldn't  overcome a single Admiral seems ludicrous to me. Just Luffy, Law and Kidd should be able to push Kizaru to very high difficulty. Add in the others and this becomes too much power and hax for even Kizaru to overcome.
> 
> Also stay on topic and avoid these petty insults.  If another thread derails in this way again then it won't be mere warnings that get distributed.



This is coming from the idea that if nobody has haki just as good as an admiral they ain't winning as each individual lacks the necessary haki to take them down.

Which is quite funny as it means numbers don't matter at all.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2014)

^not saying numbers dont matter but so what if they did? Im sure we can all list examples from mangas that we have read where multiple powerful fighters tried to take out one guy and got their ass kicked.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

> This is coming from the idea that if nobody has haki just as good as an admiral they ain't winning as each individual lacks the necessary haki to take them down.
> 
> Which is quite funny as it means numbers don't matter at all



Exactly, but If that was true; what stops Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji (when he was a marine) from going to a Yonkou crew with Akainu fighting the captain and the other 2 fighting the entire crew + allies since 99% of them won't have the same level of Haki as the admirals. Which means the only ones who would even be able to fight Kizaru and Aokiji would arguably be the first mate and the one right below him strength wise. 

If we actually used the logic people are using to say the SNs lose. Then I can with so much confident say, by that logic; the 3 logia admirals can solo all 4 yonkou crews minus the captains.  Can people even see how stupid that sounds?

Okay 4 is too much, I'll go with 3.


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## Canute87 (Jun 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^not saying numbers dont matter but so what if they did? Im sure we can all list examples from mangas that we have read where multiple powerful fighters tried to take out one guy and got their ass kicked.



Aizen had spent a good deal of preparation setting up the shinigami under his complete hypnosis which is the most haxx thing to this date to which only Gin knew the weakness he also knew the abilities of his victims to the tee seeing he's not just a regular genius but a *fucking genius  *
And there wasn't much variety in abilities aizen had to deal with either.
Kizaru is nowhere near the haxx that Aizen is and even he needed prep.

Shishio had prep.

Masataka Takuyunagi was beating up punks with average skills.

Madara was immortal  not affected in the slightest by pain or fatigue and he got deus x machina powerup with the rinnegan........naruto is just terrible.

Can give me other examples, hopefully I've read it before.


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## Canute87 (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Exactly, but If that was true; what stops Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji (when he was a marine) from going to a Yonkou crew with Akainu fighting the captain and the other 2 fighting the entire crew + allies since 99% of them won't have the same level of Haki as the admirals. Which means the only ones who would even be able to fight Kizaru and Aokiji would arguably be the first mate and the one right below him strength wise.
> 
> If we actually used the logic people are using to say the SNs lose. Then I can with so much confident say, by that logic; the 3 logia admirals can solo all 4 yonkou crews minus the captains.  Can people even see how stupid that sounds?
> 
> Okay 4 is too much, I'll go with 3.



But haki isn't the only thing that matters.  What are their abilities apart from charing with a weapon?

A great deal of the supernovas has special abilities and most of them should be stronger than the whitebeard commanders except for the obvious ones we know.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> But haki isn't the only thing that matters.  What are their abilities apart from charing with a weapon?
> 
> A great deal of the supernovas has special abilities and most of them should be stronger than the whitebeard commanders except for the obvious ones we know.



Oh I completely agree with you a 100%, this and the post before.  Haki isn't the only thing, but people make it sound as it is. 

Besides, wouldn't Kizaru need to go full body Haki to protect ALL of his body if we actually took the theory you need the EXACT same amount of Haki as an admiral to hurt him "lol".

I really doubt you can keep full body Haki for a long period of time. Which means if he's hardening his legs to block something, someone can attack his hands since they are not coated in Haki. But again, no one knows how Haki exactly works so...


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Aizen had spent a good deal of preparation setting up the shinigami under his complete hypnosis which is the most haxx thing to this date to which only Gin knew the weakness he also knew the abilities of his victims to the tee seeing he's not just a regular genius but a *fucking genius  *
> And there wasn't much variety in abilities aizen had to deal with either.
> Kizaru is nowhere near the haxx that Aizen is and even he needed prep.
> 
> ...




Gin made it perfectly clear that Aizen did not need his Shikai to take out opponents before him. Which Aizen also showed when he went on a one shot spree to which at one point he one shot 4 captains at the same time. Although its true kizaru is less hax, he also has much greater Aoe and unlike aizen has intangibility which if not negated by haki kizaru literally will take no damage from attacks even if it could blow up a island.

Hao from shamen king is well hao. He could solo the verse before he became the literal god of the verse.

Tian from feng shen ji has no hax but he literally soloed the most powerful fighters in the world.

Madara stomped the 5 kages. Pain practically solo the leaf village. Head captain Yama took out 3 star knights with one swing of his sword. Siegfried from HDSK could solo a team of 4 fighters all of which were on a simliar to one of his comrades. Female titan could take out 4 elite fighters then take out eren with room to spare. Cavendish and jesus rape stomped theor matches  Yusuke from yu yu hakushos sent multiple demons of the highest rank(S) flying into the stratosphere.


Anyway this is one piece so numbers mean more then most manga but kizaru is one of the special cases where its not so much for a few reasons.

1. Kizaru point blank peiord is one of the strongest guys in the world.

2. He has very powerful aoe that he can spam from very long distance.

3. He has a fruit that can let him move at superhigh speeds with a little prep.

4. Most importantly he has high level haki along with his logia fruit. Which combined together let him take zero damage from a sneak attack from white beard, and let his fellow admiral akainu take a zero damage from a sneak attack by marco\vista. 

Now does the things I listed mean kizaru can never get a scratch on him even if we make it 20 supernova level fighters nope, but it does mean the damage he will take will be little and far inbetween, and of course kizaru is obviously a endurance monster just like akainu and aokiji so him getting hit by a couple hardend jet bazzoka level attacks every now and then is not going to ammount to shit.


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## Canute87 (Jun 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Gin made it perfectly clear that Aizen did not need his Shikai to take out opponents before him. Which Aizen also showed when he went on a one shot spree to which at one point he one shot 4 captains at the same time. Although its true kizaru is less hax, he also has much greater Aoe and unlike aizen has intangibility which if not negated by haki kizaru literally will take no damage from attacks even if it could blow up a island.
> 
> Hao from shamen king is well hao. He could solo the verse before he became the literal god of the verse.
> 
> ...



Interesting.  Gonna have to address this tomorrow.  Gotta go to work.


----------



## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

> Which Aizen also showed when he went on a one shot spree to which at one point he one shot 4 captains at the same time.


Yeah but don't forget that these 4 captains just finished fighting people on their level. They were beyond tired. The SNs on the other hand will be at their best shape possible. 



> Pain practically solo the leaf village


Gai wasn't there. Don't tell me you don't think Gai can beat Pain if he goes all out, he'll murder him. 



> 2. He has very powerful aoe that he can spam from very long distance.


Are you sure he can spam it. I don't think he can. If Oda didn't create a limit to how much people can use their DFs, some DFs could potentially be as strong or even stronger than the ancient weapons combined, which we know is wrong seeing how much hype these weapons have. 



> 3. He has a fruit that can let him move at superhigh speeds with a little prep.


Yet, people were reacting perfectly to him and were not stomped.  I won't use Rayleigh as an example seeing how he is also a special case, but i'll use the commanders. We saw the commanders charging at Kizaru during MF, we also saw Kizaru's comment about them charging his way and how scary they look.  If he could actually "lol" blitz people that strong like a lot are claiming in this thread, it would have taken him the same panel he commented on to one shoot all the commanders who were charging his way, two kicks? three?



> 4. Most importantly he has high level haki along with his logia fruit. Which combined together let him take zero damage from a sneak attack from white beard, and let his fellow admiral akainu take a zero damage from a sneak attack by marco\vista.


That is true, but we're not expecting Kizaru to go down from one hit. Some hits will work, some won't. If you're going to say if even WB couldn't land a hit, how come the SNs can. Then I'll ask you how come Marco could and WB couldn't. Probably cuz Haki is will power and it changes depending on how the fight goes. 



> so him getting hit by a couple hardend jet bazzoka level attacks every now and then is not going to ammount to shit.


But they're going toIt's not just a hardened Jet bazzoka, it's Luffy, Zoro, Law, Kidd, Drake,Urgoue, Hawkins, Apoo, Killer, Capone and Bonney. I'm pretty sure they have more than hardened jet Bazzokas to give Kizaru. I know you said level attacks, but jet bazzoka is not Luffy's strongest attack. 

You're all imagining Kizaru doing things he has never done before. Such as; spamming YOM, kicking the ground and immediately KOing every SN...etc The list goes on.  But, why not Imagine the SNs doing things they haven't shown yet. Why not imagine Kidd being able to manipulate Kizaru's blood and instantly kill him. Imaginary scenarios don't work.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Yeah but don't forget that these 4 captains just finished fighting people on their level. They were beyond tired. The SNs on the other hand will be at their best shape possible.



True but the impressive part about the feat was that they all got blitzed more so then actually taken out by the attack. 



> Gai wasn't there. Don't tell me you don't think Gai can beat Pain if he goes all out, he'll murder him.



I did say practically? And Gai is one fighter out of many. Konoha was the strongest village and Pain went and their and bent them over. 




> Are you sure he can spam it. I don't think he can. If Oda didn't create a limit to how much people can use their DFs, some DFs could potentially be as strong or even stronger than the ancient weapons combined, which we know is wrong seeing how much hype these weapons have.



Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days. Look at Punk Hazard they spammed the shit out of Magma and ice. 

Pretty sure kizaru can spam his moves just fine. It will take away from his stamina of course, but its not like this fight is going to last multiple days regardless of which side wins. 




> Yet, people were reacting perfectly to him and were not stomped.  I won't use Rayleigh as an example seeing how he is also a special case, but i'll use the commanders. We saw the commanders charging at Kizaru during MF, we also saw Kizaru's comment about them charging his way and how scary they look.  If he could actually "lol" blitz people that strong like a lot are claiming in this thread, it would have taken him the same panel he commented on to one shoot all the commanders who were charging his way, two kicks? three?



We don't see the fight all we know is said commanders were relatively fine and kizaru was as well. 

Anyway kizaru does not need to lol blitz in order to win this fight. Honestly all he needs to do is overwhelm them with massive attack power. 



> That is true, but we're not expecting Kizaru to go down from one hit. Some hits will work, some won't. If you're going to say if even WB couldn't land a hit, how come the SNs can. Then I'll ask you how come Marco could and WB couldn't. Probably cuz Haki is will power and it changes depending on how the fight goes.



Agreed, but the thing you have to take note of is that Marco/White-beard>>>Supernovas. So the Supernovas are going to have a lot more misses. 


> But they're going toIt's not just a hardened Jet bazzoka, it's Luffy, Zoro, Law, Kidd, Drake,Urgoue, Hawkins, Apoo, Killer, Capone and Bonney. I'm pretty sure they have more than hardened jet Bazzokas to give Kizaru. I know you said level attacks, but jet bazzoka is not Luffy's strongest attack.



I said Jet Bazzoka lvl moves cause i really don't seeing Kizaru being hit by any of their higher end moves. No way in hell is Kizaru going to get hit by a Elephant Thor for example, unless a lot of trickery is involved probably via Law hax. 



> You're all imagining Kizaru doing things he has never done before. Such as; spamming YOM, kicking the ground and immediately KOing every SN...etc The list goes on.  But, why not Imagine the SNs doing things they haven't shown yet. Why not imagine Kidd being able to manipulate Kizaru's blood and instantly kill him. Imaginary scenarios don't work.



We are just assuming Kizaru is not retarded and fights in a logical way. 

He is out-numbed 11 to 1. So it would make no sense for him to say take out his light sword and try to take them out 1v1 in close quarters combat. That's just asking to get gang banged and blindsided by hax, and if kizaru was to indeed try and fight that way he would lose(IMO). 

What makes sense(IMO) would be for him to use his Speed to create a distance between him and his opponents so he can not only keep a eye on all of his opponents and not get sneak attacked from behind, but so he can effectively SPAM AOE or even focused foot lasers to try and pick someone off. Its just basic strategy just like its logical to assume if Kizaru starts spamming lasers Law and Kidd would use their devil fruits to try and defend/protect everyone else the best they can, and not just defend themselves while everyone else gets turned into Swiss cheese. 

Now of course Kizaru kicking the ground and the supernovas dieing is just a joke.

Edit: Also just to be clear i  don't think kizaru will just lol one shot everyone, and walk away 10 minutes after the fight starts with not a scratch on him. I just think he can win.


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 17, 2014)

Seriously, there is no way kizaru will be winning against 11 Super novas whose combined effort will prove to be too much for the Admiral to handle. The level of destruction the strongest Sn11 can dish out is incredibly powerful; mountain level slash and small island level Gum Gum elephant gatling and add 2 more members of the supernova on the level of Luffy and Law (possibly even higher) and it'll be a stomp. We have Apoo who managed to decapitate Kizaru's body even though it did no damage at all due to the absence of haki. Now seeing him dish out the same attack with the assistance of haki  and I assure you it'll do some damage. Most strong Sn11 have got a good level of haki and could critically hurt the admiral when combined. They should have good enough reaction speed to dodge his finger beam lasers and can predetermine where and when Kizaru will shoot his lasers. Law will create a big enough room for them to again access to enough space for Law to switch their location in side the room for the purpose of teleporting a few of them against Kizaru's harmless attacks.

Kizaru loses with high difficulty at best.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

> True but the impressive part about the feat was that they all got blitzed more so then actually taken out by the attack.


I don't wanna turn this into a bleach discussion, but I don't think he blitzed them. He said, you thought I wasn't using my Shikai from the beginning? when they questioned when the hell did he release it cuz no one saw him release his sword. So technically, he didn't blitz them, he was just standing there, illusions. 



> Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days. Look at Punk Hazard they spammed the shit out of Magma and ice.
> 
> Pretty sure kizaru can spam his moves just fine. It will take away from his stamina of course, but its not like this fight is going to last multiple days regardless of which side wins.



If they could actually spam their stuff like you are making it sound, PH would be way worse if it even existed in the first place. 10 days spamming and all they could do is change the weather of the island and mess it up like that? Imagine if Luffy "spammed" Elephant gatalin for 10 straight days, no island would be standing after that. 



> I said Jet Bazzoka lvl moves cause i really don't seeing Kizaru being hit by any of their higher end moves. No way in hell is Kizaru going to get hit by a Elephant Thor for example, unless a lot of trickery is involved probably via Law hax.


That's what we've saying forever. It's not like Kizaru is just standing, but the SNs are not standing still either. However, they have a lot of Hax in their disposal, they have 9 brains to combine and a lot of hax to work with. To think Kizaru will manage to land his strongest attack on them but they'll fail to do the same with all that hax doesn't fly with me.


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 17, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> When four supernovas pre TS essentially got ROFLstomped (and genuinely in the truest form of that word) by Kizaru it really isn't as ludicrous a notion as you and others make out. When the gap was shown to be so gigantic pre TS, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that two years isn't sufficient to overcome that.
> 
> Let's take a two step approach to looking at this:
> 
> ...



Let's see how some of the supernova's spent their time skip summer vacation...

_Luffy: Trained under the watched guidance of the right hand of the Pirate King. 

Zoro: Trained under the WSS. 

Law: Became a Warlord.

Kid: Survived and even thrived in the New World while running afoul of an Emperor. 

Apoo, Hawkins: Also thriving in the New World. 

X Drake: Currently serving under an Emperor. _

Looking at those circumstances it speaks volumes about their growth. These are the elite's of the current generation, pirates with the potential to achieve the greatest heights possible, and it's not far fetched to think that collectively they have easily attained the power to defeat a lone Admiral. In fact it's more than likely.


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## Lawliet (Jun 17, 2014)

^ They only believe in feats, most of them at least.


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## StrawHat4Life (Jun 17, 2014)

Feats don't exist in a vacuum.


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## Shanks (Jun 17, 2014)

*I think it's time to post my closing post now.*

*Shouen?s Perspective*

*Spoiler*: __ 



Donquixote Doflamingo (member) have posted a bunch of scenarios where by someone significantly stronger can beat a group of people, so I?ll here by replicate this but look at how a group of people can or good strategies can beat someone stronger than them:

?	Naruto, Bee, Gai & Kakashi winning against Obito before Madara arrives on the scene. Later on, Kakashi was able to solo Obito.
?	Kakashi?s team was losing to Hidan and Kakazu, but once Naruto arrives at the scene, Narudo & Yamato defeated Kakazu easily and Shikamaru with good strategy solo Hidan
?	Coyote Starrk, Baraggan Louisenbairn and Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck all got gang banged.
?	Pre-skip SHs defeated a Pacifista


This all means that someone significantly stronger can solo a group of people, but if the combine power and strategy of that group of people exceed the strong person, then the group can win.

What we need to do is clearly identify the strength of Kizaru and Strength of the Novas to determine if Kizau is significantly stronger than the nova or just simply stronger individually.





*How Kizau?s Logia & Haki work*

*Spoiler*: __ 



We do not exactly know how it works, but one thing we do know is that if he wants to increase his defensive and take minimum damage from weaker haki assaults, he will need to consciously activate his logia and infuse it with CoA. Even if it takes a split sec to active and it seems like almost instantaneous, it?s still not.

We also don?t know the limit of Kizau?s Haki power nor his limit to spam lasers. What we do know is that he either cannot or isn?t in his character to spam lasers the entire battle simply because he did not do such things even when fighitng multiple times on panel already.

Also bear in mind that with AoE and long distance attacks, the power is spread out. Simply put the combine power of all lasers from 1 Yasakani no Magatama should be roughly the same as a light speed kick.

Long distance attack also decreases the accuracy dramatically as we have being shown that Yasakani no Magatama missed Law?s ship and Dai Funka and Ryusei Kazan missed a tone of fodder pirates.

So in order to hurt or defeat Kizaru it?s about:
?	Capturing him off guard when he isn?t infusing Haki in his logia to hurt him
?	Tap him with Hacks
?	Combine enough fighting power of the novas to overcome him Logia + Haki combination




*Speed Argument*

*Spoiler*: __ 



I?ve seen people spamming ?Kizau is the faster, significantly faster, etc? and continue to do so on and on and on, yet fail to read or recognize what I?ve addressed previously.

No one here are disagreeing that Kizaru is faster and in-fact I can even agree that he is the fastest Top Tier and the faster person in One Piece to-date. HOWEVER, other top tiers can still keep up with him and we have canon proof that Marco & Ray was more than capable of effortless keeping up with his speed. Being an Admiral and presumable either equal to or slightly weaker than Aokiji & Akainu means that the other Admirals could also keep up with his speed also. Same goes with Fujitora, despite being a newly appointed Admiral. Same goes with Garp, because he was able to intercept Marco in midair.

While high tiers should technically be slower, on panel, we have seen high tiers and lower keeping up with an Admiral?s speed. They include:
?	Ivankov?s was able to tap Akainu with Death Wink to provide an opening for Jimbie to take Luffy out of there
?	Crocodile was able to tap Akainu again and slice him in half to save Jimbie and Luffy
?	Jimbie jumping in and catch Akainu?s manga fist earlier to save Luffy
?	Pre-skip Luffy dodging Mihawk
?	Law intercepting with Fujitora?s meteor multiple times and was able to buy time for several chapters with both Doflamingo and Fujitora
?	Zoro keeping up with Fujitora?s speed to trade slashes the first clash and came out clean the second clash

All this isn?t saying these guys are faster than Kizaru, NO NO NO! No one is saying this or have being saying this. All this is saying that despite a 1 v 1, they can keep up with a top tier?s speed somewhat, but when we?re talking 11 v 1, their combine consecutive assaults will be significantly faster than Kizaru alone.




*Feats of the Nova*

*Spoiler*: __ 



So far, NONE of the Novas have fully gone all out on panel and on a fair battle yet, so I?ll look at what we have.

Luffy

?	Starting the time skip by casually 1 shotting a Pacifista that took his entire crew preskip going all out to win. We also now realize that gear second is more or less his base as he can use it so effortlessly and have much stronger attacks by infused haki, using gear third and infused element power into his attacks, implies that he got significantly stronger and I would go as far as 10x times stronger or more
?	Destroying half of Noah with a blood lusted Elephant Gatling. Let me remind you that Noah was built and designed to cater for the 5 million population of Fishman island and is half the size of this massive Fishman island. Luffy?s attack is ISLAND SIZE. The only person that?s shown AoE larger than island size was whitebeard.
?	Luffy mid/low diffing Don Chinjao. Chinjao despite old, was able to tank the pointy end of a legendary blade for an established named super nova in Cavendish. Chinjao was able to fight on even ground with Luffy for an extended period of time before Luffy pushes out a strong attacks like Hawk Riffle and even so Chinjao effortless get up. Chinjao?s feat against Luffy seems to be better that Jimbie?s feats at Fishman island.

Law

?	Law said it himself that he?s not a match of Doflamingo, that?s true, but we also do not know exactly how strong Doflamingo is yet, because he has yet to gone all out.
?	What do we know of Law is that he was able to hold of Doflamingo & Fujitora for an extended period of time, got captured, escaped, save Sanji and Co, then go on to fighting Doflamingo again and lost. Most of these are off panel, so we do not know exact what he?s capable off, but if we look at what he?s done on panel, we could have a decent idea of what he?s capable of.
?	Law effortless slice Fujitora?s first Metoer and aim it as Fujitora and Doflamingo
?	Dodging multiple Meteors on panel
?	Deflecting a Metoer and sending it right back and Fujitora?s ship
?	And the most impressive feat is that island size room, despite being fragile. Once again, no one besides WB have shown AoE larger than island size before.

Zoro

?	Clashed with Fujitora the first time. Both obviously did not go all out. But what happened during that clash gives Zoro tremendous hypes of what he?s truly capable of.
?	Zoro went for Doflamingo?s head and was intercepted by Fujitora?s sword. They look even at that time
?	Fujitora then proceed to overpower him with Gravity, created a hole and send him tumbling down helplessly. Fujitora looks really good in this encounter and if the battle ends here, we can all agree that Zoro is fodder to Fujitora, but what happens after is what?s shown how strong Zoro and to an extend how strong Novas are currently.
?	Zoro proceed to get out of the hole and looks like have suffer limited damage and send a flying slash to Fujitora, pushed him back and Fujitora made a shit face and commented that it was brutal. This is not as impressive as send Zoro down a hole, but is in fact far more impressive most high tier feats we seen to date and he can hold his own against an Admiral
?	Oda once again further justify this by giving them a quick off panel clash again later on, which was then interrupted by Pica. This is to show that if the first battle continues, Zoro would not go down easily. One again, this is a 1 v 1 feat against an Admiral/Top Tier.

All this is to shown that these guys are no longer fodders to an Admiral/Top Tier and while they still can?t win in a 1 v 1, they can certainly handle an Admiral in a 1 v 1. Let me also remind you that 11 v 1 will be significantly different.




*Rivalries & Speculations*

*Spoiler*: __ 



It was made very clear that Kid will be one of Luffy?s biggest Rival by always giving him the highest bounty and higher than Luffy and having a strong swordsmen as first-mate in Killer.

Killer so far have shown to be a calm patient, strategiest and intelligent person by being the middleman between the Nova alliance to fight a Yonkou.

Kid & Killer?s portrayal as Luffy & Zoro?s rival is showing that they will always be fairly close in power to Luffy & Zoro and can possibly be stronger based on their rivalry.

Hawkin, Apoo and Drake have all shown to be close to M3 Nova?s power level during Sabaoby and possible their roles in the new world.

Not sure where Bonnie, Capoine and Urouge fits here, but two of these guys have hacks.





*Story Progression*

*Spoiler*: __ 



We have passed the 65% mark of the story! Kid alliance is ready to take on a Yonkou crew. I repeat a YONKOU CREW, which will most likely have at least 3 times the fighting power of your average Admiral. This is mad hype of the Novas and we're here discussing whether all Novas can take on 1 Admiral or not? It seems really pathetic if you think about it.

This arc is about fighting a pirate crew that?s second only to a Youkou crew and I have no doubt in the next big arc, Luffy can co will be taking on a Yonkou crew. Whether or not Luffy is strong enough to solo a Yonkou then, I don?t know, but most people would agree than a small group of Novas (not all) should be able to take down a Yonkou then, so why people are questioning that all Novas can?t even take 1 Admiral now is bothersome.





*Combining Power & Combination Attacks*


*Spoiler*: __ 



We all saw how it?s perfectly possible to combine haki to defend against a stronger force when the C3 defended Marineford plaza against a quake punch from WB. Why can?t 3 Novas do the same to defend again Kizaru?s light spamming?

We also saw how Zoro and Luffy was able to combine their power to counter Aqua Lagoona. Why is it not possible to combine the Nova power to increase their powers?




*Hacks ? To 1 Shot*

*Spoiler*: __ 




?	Law ? Shamble hearts
?	Bonnie ? Turn someone into an old man or new body
?	Capoine ? Turn someone smaller

If anyone of these guys gets the opportunity to tap Kizaru?s ass, he could be death in 1 shot. Just like:

?	Cesar being significantly weaker than Luffy was able to defeat Luffy, Smoker and Co the first time around
?	Kizaru & Monkey VA using a little strategy was able to tap Marco and defeat him low~mid diff, despite Marco is Admiral level and your average VA should be fodder to him
?	Mag, who technically should be significantly weaken that pre-skip BB crew combine was able to 1-shot with an opening due to hacks


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## Amol (Jun 17, 2014)

^
 Very thoughtful post . It clearly shows position SN holds in NW. They are after all targeting two Yonkos in smaller groups.
Rep+


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## LyricalMessiah (Jun 18, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> [ Can't quote all of this because of char limit



-Snip-

I mean I am looking forward to our next debate 

He gave up on our debate and starting spamming large quantities of ad hominems after I humiliated him in this one thread about the level of power of Doflamingo. Hisoka said Jozu was stronger than Doflamingo which I argued against this notion by bringing evidence of how he was able to stop a physical monster such as Jozu with his strings and can do more so easily with Parasite raining down from the sky. One of his claims was saying that Doflamingo had "DIFFICULTY" handling Jozu with his strings  after I proved him wrong in this thread;  when he clearly did not have any difficulty in restricting Jozu's movements with his strings  Even when asked to provide clear evidence of Jozu's resistance to Doflamingo's strings being hard for Doflamingo to control, he doesn't provide evidence but save face by putting me in his super ignore list.


 He denied that Doflamingo would be able to capture Jozu with Parasite by making up half assed facts of Jozu's supposed great "speed" based on his encounter with Aokiji who himself hasn't got any decent speeds. Thus basing the fact that Jozu is fast when he's clearly been portrayed as sluggish and slow is an erroneous claim.


Happy to know that there are at least some good debaters in this site


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