# Part 1 Kakashi vs. Part 1 Kabuto



## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 23, 2022)

it seems that this fight is more split than what i first imagined from what ive seen in other threads. so im curious now to see the arguments presented on this topic.

i broke it down to two separate versions of Kakashi; Rusty P1 Kakashi & End of P1 Kakashi as he does grow stronger.

*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Manga/Rep
*Restrictions:* None
*Location: *Gaara vs Kimimaro


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 23, 2022)

@t0xeus @Santoryu @Mithos @Aegon Targaryen @Sufex @Capa13 @MustardPN @Raiken @IzanagiSageKunai

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Jul 23, 2022)

So I have it.... 

P1 Kabuto with Solider Pill is above P1 Rusty Zabuza fight Kakashi. SRA and above Versions of Kakashi are Above P1 Kabuto with Solider Pill.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ayala (Jul 23, 2022)

All types of Kakashi beat Kabuto, by feats. The man's beat in all field possible, aside medical which Kabuto has and Kakashi doesn't. But he's not Tsunade to use highened regen and near immortality in battle, so it doesn't give him an edge. Pt 2 didn't do Kabuto favors either, to give him some advantage here.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 23, 2022)

I frankly believe P1 Kabuto = less rusty P1 Kakashi and > rusty P1 Kakashi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Jul 24, 2022)

Since they’re equal I'd say that it could go either way. Kabuto's not much of a direct fighter so with his ability to use the dead soul jutsu and his ability to go underground to fight tricky and keep Kakashi on toes, he could create an opening or keep Kakashi fighting for a while which is great since Kakashi can't keep using the Sharingan before he gets to tired. But with Kakashi's own use of clones and likely slightly better stats Kakashi could pressure and overwhelm Kabuto if he got pass the dead people so I'd say it depends on how the battle plays out.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Djomla (Jul 24, 2022)

Copy Ninja


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## Mithos (Jul 24, 2022)

Rusty Kakashi was intimidated by Kabuto so much so that he immediately went back into training so he could compete: Kabuto is stronger than rusty Kakashi, and roughly equal to an in-shape 3T Kakashi.

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## Architect (Jul 24, 2022)

Kabuto fled from Kakashi twice.
Kakashi is better in ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed, strength and has sharingan and 1k jutsu on top of it.

Kakashi


Kabuto

The only thing that saves Kabuto from being immediately manhandled by Kakashi in this fight is moguragakure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## HollowArrow123 (Jul 24, 2022)

I'm gonna delete this comment but I'm curious because I saw this in Quora


First, we have to consider the earlier declaration by Kakashi. When he encountered Orochimaru, Kakashi declared that he could not win against Orochimaru, but if he was to sacrifice himself, he has a chance to take Orochimaru with him.

Orochimaru neither confirms or denies this claim. Regardless, he leaves Kakashi to himself. Kakashi was possibly bluffing him, but Orochimaru was bluffing too because he doesn't want to fight right now and blow his plan.


When Orochimaru later talks to Kabuto, he states that Kabuto is about at the same level as Kakashi. That is, Orochinaru believes Kabuto could not defeat him either, but it would not be easy for him.

The first main battle Kabuto participated in was against Tsunade, the other member of the Sannin. Tsunade fought Kabuto in her base form, and although she was able to gain an upper hand, she praised Kabuto's prowess, stating he was much more skilled than when she was the same age.

Kabuto however was never really intending on defeating Tsunade with just his skills. Orochimaru already told him of Tsunade's blood phobia and Kabuto used his own blood to intimidate Tsunade into losing.


So if we assume Orochimaru and Tsunade are “roughly” equal, then the power of Kakashi or Kabuto would be just one tier lower. Therefore, the two of them would be roughly equal as well. So Orochimaru's claim is somewhat valid.

Bear in mind though, in a true battle, the outcome is not just determined by raw skill, but also if one participant has techniques to counter another.

For example, if we put the two in a duel, Kakashi is likely to be more experienced and have more technqiues, but Kabuto knows far more about Kakashi's abilities than Kakashi knowing his. Since Kakashi and Kabuto are both tactically intelligent ninjas, a duel between them may be very unpredictable.

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## Speedyamell (Jul 24, 2022)

Could probably go either way via portrayal. Iirc kakashi couldn't exactly fight for long with sharingan, and even if he did keep it up as long as Kabuto can normally fight, kabuto has at least one food pill to revitalise and get himself back to shape, wherein kabuto would likely have the edge from then on.


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## Santoryu (Jul 24, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Rusty Kakashi was intimidated by Kabuto so much so that he immediately went back into training so he could compete: Kabuto is stronger than rusty Kakashi, and roughly equal to an in-shape 3T Kakashi.



This is untrue and a misreading of the situation.

It is Kabuto that was so intimidated by Kakashi that he ended up fleeing.
That aside, it was not merely Kabuto that prompted Kakashi to train. It was also Orochimaru and the situation as stated by Kakashi himself.

And even then, it is Orochimaru himself who concludes Kabuto is about as strong as Kakashi, who was rusty at the same time.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Mockingbyrd (Jul 24, 2022)

Santoryu said:


> It is Kabuto that was so intimidated by Kakashi that he ended up fleeing


Actually,kakshi is one who got intimidated and praised kabuto, while Kabito is one who was fulfilling his duty as spy and left area quietly.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 24, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Rusty Kakashi was intimidated by Kabuto so much so that he immediately went back into training so he could compete: Kabuto is stronger than rusty Kakashi, and roughly equal to an in-shape 3T Kakashi.


Nah, intimidated was Kabuto when he ran away from Kakashi twice. Kakashi wasn't intimidated. He was disappointed in himself getting rusty enough to let Kabuto get away. 

Being able to run away from a fight does not mean that you can win that same fight. Especially when you had prep time to set up your escape. Playing dead isn't going to do anything for Kabuto in an actual fight.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Santoryu (Jul 24, 2022)

Mockingbyrd said:


> Actually,kakshi is one who got intimidated and praised kabuto, while Kabito is one who was fulfilling his duty as spy and left area quietly.


They say a cup of coffee served hot early in the morning makes the entire day better. How about we go get some on Monday?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Nah, intimidated was Kabuto when he ran away from Kakashi twice. Kakashi wasn't intimidated



Kabuto never seemed in the least bit scared, save like one drop of bead of sweat. He even says he simply doesn't want Kakashi to copy his techniques, not because he actually can't win, won't win, or wouldn't win most of the time. 

Frankly, it seems like an ego thing at best and a bad matchup at worst. Kakashi being a bad matchup for Kabuto in itself seems dodgy, given Kakashi has done nothing to indicate he can copy Kabuto's jutsu in the actual series.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He was disappointed in himself getting rusty enough to let Kabuto get away



Nope, he straight up said he would become "obsolete" at that point, and in reference to Kabuto *overall* (not just his escape or escape arts, mind you). 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Being able to run away from a fight does not mean that you can win that same fight



Not on its own, though. 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Especially when you had prep time to set up your escape



He took out Kakashi's own hand-picked ANBU before that singlehandedly, his "prep time" here was just using one of _Kakashi's_ prepared counters against him.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Playing dead isn't going to do anything for Kabuto in an actual fight.



It can help _feint_ Kakashi, however.


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Jul 24, 2022)

Kakashi Stomps IF he also gets Solider Pill like Kabuto.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> Kakashi Stomps IF he also gets Solider Pill like Kabuto.



Kabuto doesn't even need a soldier pill to kick Kakashi's ass, so unlikely


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Jul 24, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto doesn't even need a soldier pill to kick Kakashi's ass, so unlikely





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto can literally pull the same trick on Kakashi he did on Tsunade. Tire him out, eat a Soldier Pill to bring himself back to full stamina, then kick Kakashi's ass.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

@IzanagiSageKunai Show me where I said Kabuto *needs* to do that (as opposed to seemingly _being able_ to do so).


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 24, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto never seemed in the least bit scared, save like one drop of bead of sweat. He even says he simply doesn't want Kakashi to copy his techniques, not because he actually can't win, won't win, or wouldn't win most of the time.


"I simply don't want you to copy my techniques! I'm not scared or anything!"




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Frankly, it seems like an ego thing at best and a bad matchup at worst. Kakashi being a bad matchup for Kabuto in itself seems dodgy, given Kakashi has done nothing to indicate he can copy Kabuto's jutsu in the actual series.


Then what was Kabuto so worried about?




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope, he straight up said he would become "obsolete" at that point, and in reference to Kabuto *overall* (not just his escape or escape arts, mind you).


Obsolete as a ninja. Back when the series still had some semblance of espionage and subterfuge. Kabuto's skills were obviously impressive and extremely useful for those purposes. What he showed in that hospital would not help him in a fight. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> He took out Kakashi's own hand-picked ANBU before that singlehandedly, his "prep time" here was just using one of _Kakashi's_ prepared counters against him.


lol, are we seriously putting the failure of fodder anbu on Kakashi? This says absolutely nothing about Kakashi's abilities. It doesn't even say much about Kabuto's abilities considering Kakashi took out two anbu with one sharingan glance. Kakashi's goal was to protect Sasuke and capture Kabuto (or whoever showed up to that room). This was not him prepping a counter to Kabuto specifically and it wasn't in the context of a fight to the death.  



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It can help _feint_ Kakashi, however.


You can't honestly believe that Kabuto is going to out-feint Kakashi in a fight? Kakashi has feinted the likes of Pain and Itachi. If it would have worked to take out Kakashi, he would have done it in that hospital. It's irrelevant in a BD fight anyway unless you're giving Kabuto extra bodies and prep time. Kakashi's feints, meanwhile, require no prep and have far greater feats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 24, 2022)

Architect said:


> Kabuto fled from Kakashi twice.
> Kakashi is better in ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed, strength and has sharingan and 1k jutsu on top of it.
> 
> Kakashi
> ...


Yeah, but Orochimaru said that they were "on the same level". Clearly Orochimaru, who hadn't seen Kakashi in a decade or more, would know better than Kishi and his silly databooks, right? I mean, there's zero nuance or grey area in the statement, "on the same level". Seems pretty clear cut to me.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> "I simply don't want you to copy my techniques! I'm not scared or anything!"



I mean, they're two different things though. You need to prove Kabuto was scared of Kakashi when 99.9% of the time he was confident enough to mock him while in a dangerous position himself.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Then what was Kabuto so worried about?



Kakashi copying his jutsu  

Dude does seem a little touchy about his identity (which is *literally a plot point in PII*, by the way, and why he went to all that trouble of starting the War and taking people's DNA), I can understand him not wanting someone to erase something that makes him unique as a person.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Obsolete as a ninja. Back when the series still had some semblance of espionage and subterfuge. Kabuto's skills were obviously impressive and extremely useful for those purposes. What he showed in that hospital would not help him in a fight



But Kakashi's cunning and ability to read the room weren't what's lacking (or at least not really implied to have taken a hit). The thing we know for a fact that he lost was _physical stats_, which is reflected by Kakashi trying to climb a mountain single-armed and fretting "how weak" he'd let his body come. If Kakashi was fast enough, he could have stopped Kabuto and kicked his ass. Of course, he wasn't even close to it...



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> lol, are we seriously putting the failure of fodder anbu on Kakashi?



No, we're just saying Kakashi literally had his own "prep time" and Kabuto literally stole it from him and used it against him.

Those weren't fodder ANBU, by the way. Kakashi is *stunned* Kabuto was able to kill them, and on top of that, Kabuto notes Kakashi should've had at least _10_ instead of 8 or whatever number he actually had.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This says absolutely nothing about Kakashi's abilities. It doesn't even say much about Kabuto's abilities considering Kakashi took out two anbu with one sharingan glance



That's...FKS Kakashi, bro. What are you even doing? Do you want me to give SM Kabuto's feats to P1 Kabuto too?  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi's goal was to protect Sasuke and capture Kabuto (or whoever showed up to that room). This was not him prepping a counter to Kabuto specifically and it wasn't in the context of a fight to the death



See above. You misunderstood me.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You can't honestly believe that Kabuto is going to out-feint Kakashi in a fight?



Well, I do honestly believe that. Kakashi isn't immune to feints, Zabuza did it to him and he's not even as cunning as Kabuto.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi has feinted the likes of Pain and Itachi



Cool, but that's...PII Kakashi, and that was 30% Itachi that he feinted, not the genuine article. The Pain feat I'll give you though.

PII Kabuto feinted _ET Itachi and MS+ Sasuke_, on the other hand. 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If it would have worked to take out Kakashi, he would have done it in that hospital.


 
Or maybe Kabuto just didn't want to risk Kakashi copying his jutsu, as earlier stated  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's irrelevant in a BD fight anyway unless you're giving Kabuto extra bodies and prep time



Kabuto actually had a scroll of bodies at his disposal IIRC. Given that Kabuto isn't even really shown to have improved in PII (unlike Kakashi) and given that you're literally using PII feats for P1 Kakashi...





Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi's feints, meanwhile, require no prep and have far greater feats.



Kabuto has better feats and no prep needed either though


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## Raiken (Jul 24, 2022)

BoS Kakashi >> P1 Kakashi(Itachi Fight) > BoS Kabuto ~ P1 Kakashi(LoW) > P1 Kabuto


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## Architect (Jul 24, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Yeah, but Orochimaru said that they were "on the same level". Clearly Orochimaru, who hadn't seen Kakashi in a decade or more, would know better than Kishi and his silly databooks, right? I mean, there's zero nuance or grey area in the statement, "on the same level". Seems pretty clear cut to me.


It's worth mentioning Oro said "you are no stonger than Kakashi" in one (viz) translation, meaning Kakashi >= Kabuto. Imo he kinda meant to say "weaker".  After facing Kakashi, he for himslef decided that Kakashi can't beat him. And was basically saying like "even Kakashi can't beat me, what are you hoping for?".
Yeah, Kakashi is also the guy who "seldom reveals his true strength". Oro chilling outside of konoha prior to incasion, learning all about Kakashi's power just from what was basically a staredown with Raikiri and genjutsu threats? No way.
Kakashi didn't even uncover his sharingan lol.

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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 24, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, they're two different things though. You need to prove Kabuto was scared of Kakashi when 99.9% of the time he was confident enough to mock him while in a dangerous position himself.


Right up until he walked away. Such confidence.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kakashi copying his jutsu


If Kabuto is afraid that Kakashi will copy his techniques, then Kabuto is not confident that he can beat Kakashi in a fight. Kakashi can't use Kabuto's jutsu if he's dead.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> But Kakashi's cunning and ability to read the room weren't what's lacking (or at least not really implied to have taken a hit). The thing we know for a fact that he lost was _physical stats_, which is reflected by Kakashi trying to climb a mountain single-armed and fretting "how weak" he'd let his body come. If Kakashi was fast enough, he could have stopped Kabuto and kicked his ass. Of course, he wasn't even close to it...


True, but in regard to the "obsolete" statement specifically, I think it's pretty clear that Kakashi was impressed with Kabuto's techniques and the possible applications of them. Not his speed. There are plenty of fast ninja. Not many that can do what Kabuto did in that room though. If Kakashi was faster, he could have stopped Kabuto and he would have kicked his ass. But Kabuto was in an extremely advantageous position to _escape_. Kakashi can't teleport (yet). Jumping out of a window before Kakashi could reach him does not say much about how their speed compares on even ground. Even if Kakashi could catch up to him he wouldn't have left Sasuke alone.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, we're just saying Kakashi literally had his own "prep time" and Kabuto literally stole it from him and used it against him.


Kakashi was not prepping FOR Kabuto though. He was just trying to keep Sasuke safe. I really don't see what point you're trying to make here. This has zero relevence in a fight between Kakashi and Kabuto. Kakashi doesn't get anbu pawns in a fight with Kabuto. They are not an extension of him and they don't speak to how Kakashi might prepare for a _fight with Kabuto_. As opposed to protecting Sasuke from a general threat.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Those weren't fodder ANBU, by the way. Kakashi is *stunned* Kabuto was able to kill them, and on top of that, Kabuto notes Kakashi should've had at least _10_ instead of 8 or whatever number he actually had.


They're fodder compared to Kakashi.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's...FKS Kakashi, bro. What are you even doing? Do you want me to give SM Kabuto's feats to P1 Kabuto too?


Anbu have and forever will be fodder. If you think Kabuto and Kakashi are even, then Kakashi would be able to replicate Kabuto's feat against those Anbu. They're meaningless in a discussion about Kabuto Vs. Kakashi, is what I'm saying.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Cool, but that's...PII Kakashi, and that was 30% Itachi that he feinted, not the genuine article. The Pain feat I'll give you though.
> 
> PII Kabuto feinted _ET Itachi and MS+ Sasuke_, on the other hand.


Kakashi kept up with Itachi in _P1_.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto has better feats and no prep needed either though


Disagree. And practically speaking, a scroll of dead bodies is not going to work if they're already engaged in a fight, which is the case in the BD unless you specify otherwise. Manga knowledge is also standard in the BD, which doesn't do Kabuto any favors.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Such confidence



IKR?  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If Kabuto is afraid that Kakashi will copy his techniques, then Kabuto is not confident that he can beat Kakashi in a fight. Kakashi can't use Kabuto's jutsu if he's dead



Or Kakashi can just live long enough to copy said jutsu and perhaps escape to use them for himself in other battles  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> True, but in regard to the "obsolete" statement specifically, I think it's pretty clear that Kakashi was impressed with Kabuto's techniques and the possible applications of them. Not his speed. There are plenty of fast ninja. Not many that can do what Kabuto did in that room though



Nope, he was talking about Kabuto overall. Here's the full context (I paraphrased a little bit): "His skills would put the Hunter Squad to shame. If Orochimaru has someone this skilled working for him, at this rate, I'll become obsolete..." 

The first statement is comparing Kabuto's skills to the Hunters. The second is talking about Kabuto's skills (not just medical or medic-tangential skills) and comparing them to his own. Kakashi had no reason to call himself "obsolete" when he's not a body disposal type character anymore.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If Kakashi was faster, he could have stopped Kabuto and he would have kicked his ass



Exactly, yet he couldn't do so.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But Kabuto was in an extremely advantageous position to _escape_. Kakashi can't teleport (yet).







Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Jumping out of a window before Kakashi could reach him does not say much about how their speed compares on even ground



Why not? Ninja consistently retain super speed in air and during descent. 

Kabuto's jumping, not flying, and he has to land sometime. Kakashi can just follow or even outpace Kabuto unless, y'know, he can't. That requires Kabuto to be at the very least relative, if not faster himself.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Even if Kakashi could catch up to him he wouldn't have left Sasuke alone



Kakashi had a clone guarding Sasuke, bruh. Sasuke wasn't in immediate danger. 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi was not prepping FOR Kabuto though. He was just trying to keep Sasuke safe



I know, but the prep remains.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I really don't see what point you're trying to make here. This has zero relevence in a fight between Kakashi and Kabuto



Kabuto had to burn at least a little chakra to kill those dudes, whom Kakashi believed were strong enough to guard Sasuke, and could have taken even more. 

Yet Kabuto not only destroyed them, he also used their bodies against Kakashi. 

IMO it's more indirect, but it shows Kabuto is truly a problem for this version of Kakashi.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi doesn't get anbu pawns in a fight with Kabuto. They are not an extension of him and they don't speak to how Kakashi might prepare for a _fight with Kabuto_. As opposed to protecting Sasuke from a general threat



See above.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> They're fodder compared to Kakashi



I agree, but even relative fodder can be relevant in certain contexts. See: the Juubi.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Anbu have and forever will be fodder



Yet some of the strongest ninja were ANBU, Kakashi included. The Uchiha of all clans were elated to have Itachi in the ANBU.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If you think Kabuto and Kakashi are even, then Kakashi would be able to replicate Kabuto's feat against those Anbu



I think Kabuto is stronger at that time, actually.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> They're meaningless in a discussion about Kabuto Vs. Kakashi, is what I'm saying



Not really.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi kept up with Itachi in _P1_



We already went over this and you agreed.

Itachi was sandbagging and secretly loyal to Konoha but also wanting to keep up appearances for Akatsuki and to scare Danzo.

Itachi was serious against Kabuto, minus the no KI part.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Disagree. And practically speaking, a scroll of dead bodies is not going to work if they're already engaged in a fight, which is the case in the BD unless you specify otherwise. Manga knowledge is also standard in the BD, which doesn't do Kabuto any favors.



Kabuto can summon the dead bodies easily. Summoning is near instant. 

Kakashi probably has less knowledge of Kabuto than vice versa.

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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 24, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Or Kakashi can just live long enough to copy said jutsu and perhaps escape to use them for himself in other battles


OR Kabuto is full of shit and he knows that he can't beat Kakashi. Seriously... bruh... this is the _weakest _excuse to avoid a confrontation. Kabuto would do and say anything... except actually try to fight Kakashi.

He's _anything_ but confident that he could put down Kakashi.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope, he was talking about Kabuto overall. Here's the full context (I paraphrased a little bit): "His skills would put the Hunter Squad to shame. If Orochimaru has someone this skilled working for him, at this rate, I'll become obsolete..."
> 
> The first statement is comparing Kabuto's skills to the Hunters. The second is talking about Kabuto's skills (not just medical or medic-tangential skills) and comparing them to his own. Kakashi had no reason to call himself "obsolete" when he's not a body disposal type character anymore.


I don't think we're going to agree on this one. While you CAN consider speed a "skill" they are not generally tied together like that. Especially in an anime. Speed is usually emphasized on its own. "That guy is so skilled at Taijutsu! And he's fast too!". I'm not going to say that you're wrong for interpreting it that way but I don't think he was referring to anything other than the jutsu that Kabuto used to take out the Anbu and escape. Just replace "skills" in that sentence with "jutsu" and then replace it with "speed". Then replace "skilled" with "talented" and then replace it with "fast".

I really don't think that Kakashi was that impressed by Kabuto's speed. He was impressed with the techniques that allowed him to escape. Techniques that rendered speed a moot point when he just had to hop out of a window that was right next to him.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto's jumping, not flying, and he has to land sometime. Kakashi can just follow or even outpace Kabuto unless, y'know, he can't. That requires Kabuto to be at the very least relative, if not faster himself.
> 
> Kakashi had a clone guarding Sasuke, bruh. Sasuke wasn't in immediate danger.


Kabuto is not faster than Kakashi. He's relative in that he is slightly slower than a rusty Kakashi and much slower than a non-rusty Kakashi. The databook confirms this and one escape feat where Kakashi chose not to pursue does not contradict it. Kakashi clearly cared more about protecting Sasuke than he did about catching Kabuto.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> I know, but the prep remains.
> 
> Kabuto had to burn at least a little chakra to kill those dudes, whom Kakashi believed were strong enough to guard Sasuke, and could have taken even more.
> 
> ...


I still don't see why you are attributing any of this to Kakashi. He ordered some Anbu to protect Sasuke. He didn't even know WHO would be showing up. What should he have done? Ordered the Hokage to protect Sasuke himself? Kakashi overestimated the anbu or underestimated Orochimaru's minions. It still doesn't mean anything in a fight between Kabuto and Kakashi. Even if you give them both prep time, like you're arguing happened here, it still wouldn't be relevant because Kakashi would know WHO he's actually prepping for in a BD fight.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yet some of the strongest ninja were ANBU, Kakashi included. The Uchiha of all clans were elated to have Itachi in the ANBU.


You know what they all have in common? They eventually left the anbu.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> We already went over this and you agreed.
> 
> Itachi was sandbagging and secretly loyal to Konoha but also wanting to keep up appearances for Akatsuki and to scare Danzo.
> 
> Itachi was serious against Kabuto, minus the no KI part.


Even if Itachi was sandbagging to a ridiculous degree, everyone there pointed out how fast Itachi was, so it is still impressive that Kakashi kept up and there's certainly no guarantee that Kabuto could replicate that feat.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto can summon the dead bodies easily. Summoning is near instant.
> 
> Kakashi probably has less knowledge of Kabuto than vice versa.


Kakashi has knowledge of that specific technique, is what I mean. It's not likely to prove effective as a feint.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Sleepless (Jul 24, 2022)

Kabuto has abilities which can one-tap Kakashi pretty easily and they ignore durability so Kakashi would need to avoid h2h combat.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 24, 2022)

i just re-edited the polls as you were supposed to choose two answers for each version of Kakashi whoopsie


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Jul 24, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @IzanagiSageKunai Show me where I said Kabuto *needs* to do that (as opposed to seemingly _being able_ to do so).


The fact that you stated it as an option to Win surely tells me that IF P1 Kabuto is Ever Close to Losing against P1 Kakashi he can "Resort" to his Trump Card (Soldier Pill) for a Come from behind victory that Kakashi has no knowledge of said "Trump Card". Without it he doesn't Win against P1 Kakashi, In Fact, Without it, he Surely would have been delt with alot eaiser by Tsunade.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 24, 2022)

IzanagiSageKunai said:


> The fact that you stated it as an option to Win



But not as a need. Do you disagree?



IzanagiSageKunai said:


> Without it he doesn't Win against P1 Kakashi



He does.



IzanagiSageKunai said:


> n Fact, Without it, he Surely would have been delt with alot eaiser by Tsunade.



Kakashi isn't Tsunade, so this is useless information. 

Also, Kakashi would've done worse than Kabuto did against Tsunade, IMO.


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

It’s not just Orochimaru who says Kabuto = Kakashi, Jiriaya says it as well



This is a very shitty translation, more accurately by the anime and other sources it says Kabuto could go toe to toe with Kakashi or that he’s a peer to Kakashi

The idea that the author had Orochimaru AND Jiriaya say it only for it to not be true is asinine. As someone who does sable in writing, it’s so painfully obvious he was trying to portrays these two as rival powers in the power scaling of the time

Kakashi also stating he fears becoming obsolete after seeing Kabuto and then going off to train right afterwards has to be the damn biggest sign of “THESE GUYS ARE RELATIVE” Kishi could have ever given bad just outright stating it, which he also did 

IMO Kabuto is superior to rusty Kakashi and a peer to end of P1 Kakashi. Tsunade was fatigued when she was fighting Kabuto, and Kabuto had to use a food pill to amp himself, AND she would have won without blood phobia, but he’s feats there were still impressive, equal to whatever Kakashi showed 


In fact people are ignoring that Kakashi has really bad stamina whilst Kabuto outran Tsunade, who at this point should still be shitting all over Kakashi’s stamina 

Kakashi can very well gas himself in this fight especially with Kabuto having regen in a battle and powerscale  where kunai and cuts still matter heavily 

Oneshot chakra scalpels, medical ninjutsu to heal himself and potential corpse control means Kakashi has his hands full 

Kabuto downplay needs to stop, Kakashi fans been coping for too long

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Mockingbyrd (Jul 25, 2022)

Santoryu said:


> They say a cup of coffee served hot early in the morning makes the entire day better. How about we go get some on Monday?


Old, toothless joke. I have experience of encountering this in NBD before. I don't think it would be surprising that first author of this quick-wittness was toxeus. I am still recovering from Pulmonary edema the joke gave me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Tsunade was fatigued when she was fighting Kabuto, and Kabuto had to use a food pill to amp himself,





Symmetry said:


> he’s feats there were still impressive, equal to whatever Kakashi





Symmetry said:


> fact people are ignoring that Kakashi has really bad stamina whilst Kabuto outran Tsunade, who at this point should still be shitting all over Kakashi’s stamina



So basically, Kabuto's Tsunade feats are mostly thanks to his Solider Pill, without it he wouldn't have done so good against her.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> It’s not just Orochimaru who says Kabuto = Kakashi, Jiriaya says it as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kabuto has weaker stats across the board. I don't think anyone has said that this is a low diff fight in Kakashi's favor. But it is in Kakashi's favor. Kabuto isn't touching Kakashi with his scalpels thanks to the sharingan, clones, speed, and far superior taijutsu that Kakashi has. Kabuto is not Tsunade. He is not regenerating from a Raikiri to the heart. "Cuts", lol. Not quite a little cut. Not to mention genjutsu, which Kakashi also had the edge in thanks to the sharingan. 

Kabuto could last longer than rusty Kakashi as a win condition. But it's not happening more often than not. He doesn't have the defenses for that. Kakashi will be pressuring him a lot more than a phobia-ridden Tsunade did. 

All jonin are peers. Do you think that means Asuma is as strong as Kakashi. The Akatsuki are all peers. Do you think that Hidan is as strong as Itachi? This "on the same level" nonsense has never meant that they are equals. It's just a quick and dirty way of conveying that Kabuto is dangerous. If Kishi wanted to establish Kabuto as an equal to Kakashi, he wouldn't have had Kabuto run away from him twice and he certainly wouldn't have put Kabuto's stats so far below Kakashi's stats.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kabuto has weaker stats across the board.


I don’t take DB scores very seriously 

Most people don’t, the only reason it’s become relevant now is because it’s to defend Kakashi 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But it is in Kakashi's favor


Not necessarily 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kabuto isn't touching Kakashi with his scalpels thanks to the sharingan, clones, speed, and far superior taijutsu that Kakashi has.


Kabuto has superior cqc feats to Kakashi by this point, and sharingan plus clones will hurt his stamina which works for Kabuto here 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He is not regenerating from a Raikiri to the heart. "Cuts", lol. Not quite a little cut.


Never said he regenerates from a Raikiri 

Though considering he, albeit with some time, do so against a rasengan, Kakashi harming him outside of Raikiri and instant lethal attacks won’t stick in the same way it will for Kakashi



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Not to mention genjutsu, which Kakashi also had the edge in thanks to the sharingan.


Kakashi’s genjutsu thus far was a simple illusion to trick Zabuza into thinking he can see the future. Doubt that works on the far more level headed Kabuto 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi will be pressuring him a lot more than a phobia-ridden Tsunade did.


Doubtful considering said Tsuande is superior to Kakashi 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Do you think that means Asuma is as strong as Kakashi


Bad example since Asuma is stated to be near Kakashi’s level 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This "on the same level" nonsense has never meant that they are equals.


It means they are in the same ballpark 

Hidan isn’t on the same level as Itachi

Kabuto and Makashi are though




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's just a quick and dirty way of conveying that Kabuto is dangerous.


Dangerous because he’s Kakashi level in power yes 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If Kishi wanted to establish Kabuto as an equal to Kakashi, he wouldn't have had Kabuto run away from him twice and he certainly wouldn't have put Kabuto's stats so far below Kakashi's stats.


Except after Kabuto “runs away” in a foreign fucking village where Kakashi could get backup whenever he wanted, Kakashi felt so threatened by Kabuto he decided to go train 

Jiriaya wouldn’t tell us he could tussle with Kakashi in a battle, with the obvious inclination that it would be a pitched battle 

Stats don’t mean shit. Itachi has a .5 lead over Orochimaru & Tsunade, doubt that’s means he’s extremely close in power to them.

Hell Kisame & Asuma have the same stat total as well 

Just not it

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Architect (Jul 25, 2022)

Lmao Jiraiya who spends most of his time out of Konoha certainly knows about Kakashi's 'true strength'

And he certainly didn't talk out of his ass when he said whatever was needed to be said to keep Naruto away from Kabuto


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Wouldn’t Jiriaya be going off of the Kakashi from a while ago since he’s been out?

Aka *A LESS RUSTY KAKASHI?*

This legit works even better for Kabuto

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Wouldn’t Jiriaya be going off of the Kakashi from a while ago since he’s been out?
> 
> Aka *A LESS RUSTY KAKASHI?*
> 
> This legit works even better for Kabuto


Which also happens to suspiciously line up with Kakashi seeing Kabuto in action, stating he is becoming *obsolete *and then going on to train to become stronger *in response to his fear of being obsolete after seeing Kabuto*

Which all also happens to all happen suspiciously around the time Orochimaru claims Kabuto to be relative to Kakashi. The same Orochimaru who by the logic of some posters here has last known Kakashi as his *NON RUSTY VERSIONN, *which would fulfill Jiriaya’s statement and Kakashi’s fears 

Wow, it’s almost like the author tried three distinct times to tell us something!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

@Symmetry Sounds like canon


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 25, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Rusty Kakashi was intimidated by Kabuto so much so that he immediately went back into training

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Santoryu (Jul 25, 2022)

The points above have been systematically refuted on multiple occasions throughout the last decade. Most recently this year



Santoryu said:


> Keep in mind that we've already established that Kabuto compared to be on a _rusty Kakashi's level; furthermore, being on someone's _general level does not mean that you can beat them in a fight, nor does it mean you're their equal (unlike Kakashi and Gai who are explicitly stated to be *equal* several times).
> 
> Now that that's out of the way...
> 
> ...



@Semiotic Sacrilege
@Leaf Hurricane

Refer to the thread linked above and you'll see the supporting scans.

It's actually very simple:
Both Orochimaru and Jiraiya had been away from the village for a long time.
Once Orochimaru witnessed Kakashi's seal he concluded that Kakashi had grown stronger (so rusty Kakashi>the Kakashi Orochimaru witnessed) and a chapter later noted that Kabuto operates on the same level as Kakashi (rusty at the time).

Later Jiriaya states that Kabuto is a Kakashi level fighter based on his estimates and presumably Kakashi's own Intel.
This does not translate to him being Kakashi's exact equal, like Gai is. But rather, that Kabuto can compete with Kakashi. There is a reason equality is routinely cited when comparing Gai and Kakashi.
Despite the comparisons, the facts are that Kabuto fled twice from Kakashi and the second time cited that he feared that Kakashi's sharingan would copy his abilities.



Symmetry said:


> Which also happens to suspiciously line up with Kakashi seeing Kabuto in action, stating he is becoming *obsolete *and then going on to train to become stronger *in response to his fear of being obsolete after seeing Kabuto*



This mendacious interpretation has been refuted.
It was not merely Kabuto that prompted this, but the fact that *Orochimaru* also had someone like Kabuto under his command.
In essence, he is referring to the enemy unit holistically.

He can't be both obsolete and on Kabuto's level now, can he?
This is an incoherent argument and I'd implore you to present the scan in question holistically because the logic used is contradictory.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> I don’t take DB scores very seriously
> 
> Most people don’t, the only reason it’s become relevant now is because it’s to defend Kakashi


Good for you. It doesn't mean that they're irrelevant when Kishi is the one who wrote them. Power inflation made DB stuff way more unreliable in P2. There's no reason to think that they aren't a somewhat reliable indicator of where Kishi placed his characters in P1. And he put Kakashi above Kabuto in nearly every single category. This isn't a slight discrepancy between one or two stats. It's not even close.


Symmetry said:


> Kabuto has superior cqc feats to Kakashi by this point, and sharingan plus clones will hurt his stamina which works for Kabuto here


This isn't debatable. Kakashi's taijutsu is comparable to base Gai's.


Symmetry said:


> Never said he regenerates from a Raikiri
> 
> Though considering he, albeit with some time, do so against a rasengan, Kakashi harming him outside of Raikiri and instant lethal attacks won’t stick in the same way it will for Kakashi


And it's more likely than not that Kakashi lands that lethal Raikiri.


Symmetry said:


> Kakashi’s genjutsu thus far was a simple illusion to trick Zabuza into thinking he can see the future. Doubt that works on the far more level headed Kabuto.


Doubt it all you'd like. It's still yet another area that Kakashi holds the advantage.


Symmetry said:


> Doubtful considering said Tsuande is superior to Kakashi.


Blood-phobia Tsunade is not superior to Kakashi.


Symmetry said:


> Bad example since Asuma is stated to be near Kakashi’s level


And yet nobody would aruge that Asuma beats Kakashi. Crazy how there's so much wiggle room when you're "on the same level", huh?


Symmetry said:


> It means they are in the same ballpark
> 
> Hidan isn’t on the same level as Itachi
> 
> ...


This isn't a video game. Kakashi and Kabuto are not both level 50 and therefore 100% equal. The lack of nuance that people have here is astounding.


Symmetry said:


> Except after Kabuto “runs away” in a foreign fucking village where Kakashi could get backup whenever he wanted, Kakashi felt so threatened by Kabuto he decided to go train


I hear a lot of excuses for someone that was supposedly so confident in his ability to beat Kakashi. Truly compelling evidence in Kabuto's favor.


Symmetry said:


> Jiriaya wouldn’t tell us he could tussle with Kakashi in a battle, with the obvious inclination that it would be a pitched battle


I love how the only real evidence that is being brought up in favor of Kabuto is the statements of two characters that hadn't seen Kakashi in years. That generally have no idea how strong Kakashi actually is. Statements that do NOT indicate that Kabuto could actually WIN in a fight against Kakashi. Only that he's generally on that level, which apparently means that he's exactly as strong as Kakashi or STRONGER because reading comprehension is hard. It's such an obvious way to interpret the words of Kishi himself! He was speaking directly to the audience through those characters!

But when there's no room for interpretation with cold hard stats, Kishi was obviously drunk and he didn't tell people straight up that Kakashi was better than Kabuto in almost every regard. It's like valuing your cousin's sister's nephew's word over the actual source.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1


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## Speedyamell (Jul 25, 2022)

Only kakashi fans can be so condescending while simultaneously ignoring blatant manga portrayal. You wouldn't need to tell a child that kabuto and kakashi were being portrayed as peers for them to understand they were, but alas when Kakashi's involved, it's "just a dirty way to say he's dangerous"

Reactions: Lewd 2


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Only kakashi fans can be so condescending while simultaneously ignoring blatant manga portrayal. You wouldn't need to tell a child that kabuto and kakashi were being portrayed as peers for them to understand they were, but alas when Kakashi's involved, it's "just a dirty way to say he's dangerous"


You also wouldn't need to tell a child that 5 is a bigger number than 4 but here we are.

Once again, zero fucking nuance absorbed from what I actually said.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 25, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Only kakashi fans can be so condescending while simultaneously ignoring blatant manga portrayal.


The irony .

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It doesn't mean that they're irrelevant when Kishi is the one who wrote them.


Indeed they are




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> There's no reason to think that they aren't a somewhat reliable indicator of where Kishi placed his characters in P1


Besides them being terrible and claiming things like kid Naruto being equal in speed to Hiruzen ?



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This isn't debatable. Kakashi's taijutsu is comparable to base Gai's.


Prove P1 Kakashi’s taijutsu > Gai

Also prove Gai can beat Kabuto in cqc when Kabuto has access to chakra scalpels

Kabuto can be less skilled than Kakashi in cqc and overall be a bigger threat in cqc due to chakra scalpels



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And it's more likely than not that Kakashi lands that lethal Raikiri.


Not necessarily no



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Doubt it all you'd like.


Okay and I will continue to do so

Kakashi’s little genjutsu fear tactic isn’t working on Kabuto



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Blood-phobia Tsunade is not superior to Kakashi.


Indeed she is



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And yet nobody would aruge that Asuma beats Kakashi. Crazy how there's so much wiggle room when you're "on the same level", huh?


Except Asuma was stated to be *near *Kakashi and Kakashi is stated *the strongest Konoha leaf ninja *

So with Asuma we are told Kakashi is the strongest and Asuma isn’t far behind

With Kabuto we get zero confirmation Kakashi even edges out Kabuto overall and are told they are close in power 

Not the same thing 


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi and Kabuto are not both level 50 and therefore 100% equal. The lack of nuance that people have here is astounding.


no, they are level 50 and therefore a similar threat level 

Please quote me where I said they have the exact same stats and everything, I ne we denied this 

There is plenty nuance, you simply ignore it and then bitch about there being a lack of it 

I am FULLY agreeing to the idea that they have different strengths and weaknesses, which would include Kakashi being better than Kabuto at some things 

I am saying that their overall capability as fighters are near equal or relative, not that all of their qualities are equal 

Shouldn’t have to explain that but here I am



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I hear a lot of excuses for someone that was supposedly so confident in his ability to beat Kakashi. Truly compelling evidence in Kabuto's favor.


Imagine bitching about a lack of nuance, and then when I give you nuance you act *this *condescending about it 

  
Fucking wow man, just wow

Imagine thinking Kabuto running away from Kakashi when he’s deep into an enemy hidden village & Kakashi’s home turf where Kakashi has, potentially an entire village as backup means Kabuto is weaker 



Legit one arc later Kisame is persuaded to dip *because a battle in the leaf will attract backup against them*

And that was a CRIPPLED leaf village compared to this one, and Kisame had fucking Itachi as backup and he still understood that he was at a disadvantage because of the thread of backup 

Imagine ignoring ALL of that and having the gall to bitch about lack of nuance

Like that’s actually just disgusting 

 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I love how the only real evidence that is being brought up in favor of Kabuto is the statements of two characters that hadn't seen Kakashi in years.


Including characters who last saw Kakashi *before *he was rusty?





Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Statements that do NOT indicate that Kabuto could actually WIN in a fight against Kakashi.


That is legit what Jiriaya says 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> which apparently means that he's exactly as strong as Kakashi or STRONGER because reading comprehension is hard.


No

It means he’s on his level.


You do realize Kabuto can both be a tad stronger than Kakashi and still on the same level right?

Like, you do understand those aren’t mutually exclusive 

In fact, didn’t you JUST point that out with Asuma as if it was some smoking gun argument 

In the two seconds it took you to go from making that Asuma argument to here did you forget that? Are you daft?




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But when there's no room for interpretation with cold hard stats,


Also love the implication that stats are the only thing that matter, as if arsenals and such don’t matter 

Where’s that nuance at now?



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kishi was obviously drunk and he didn't tell people straight up that Kakashi was better than Kabuto in almost every regard


Considering the DB stats is a provable unreliable narrator, yes

Imagine bitching about me using the manga over DB stats 

And thinking this HELPS ur argument

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

@Symmetry 

The DB stats aren't wrong, they just don't give the full picture. They don't account for power-ups like the Cursed Seal or chakra enhancements like Shunshin. Kabuto could easily be behind Kakashi in raw stats and more than make the difference with superior chakra stat enhancement, likely owing to his masterful chakra control. So, I technically agree the stats aren't proof Kakashi beats Kabuto or anything - we even have stuff like Asuma having higher stats than Hidan or other Akatsuki members in spite of easily losing to them in a fight - but just an important distinction we need to make and be careful about.

_Excellent_ point about Kakashi not wanting to fight Kabuto in areas where Kakashi could easily get backup, however. Even the second time Kabuto fled, Kakashi literally had Guy and Genma standing next to him. Tbf, Kabuto doesn't mention it the second time and it is perfectly valid to argue he'd still not want to fight the Copycat Ninja, but still worth considering.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Indeed they are
> 
> Besides them being terrible and claiming things like kid Naruto being equal in speed to Hiruzen ?


Okay. So Kishi thinks that Kabuto is stronger than Kakashi but he accidentally swapped their stats in a DB. Or he's such a fucking moron that he gave Kakashi better stats nearly across the board when he actually thinks that Kabuto is stronger. Makes sense.


Symmetry said:


> Prove P1 Kakashi’s taijutsu > Gai


I didn't say Kakashi's taijutsu was > Gai's.


Symmetry said:


> Kabuto can be less skilled than Kakashi in cqc and overall be a bigger threat in cqc due to chakra scalpels


He is less skilled in CQC. Which means he is less likely to land a hit with those chakra scalpels. Which is compounded by Kakashi's higher speed and sharingan precog. Inversely, these things make it much easier for Kakashi to land his Raikiri on Kabuto. 



Symmetry said:


> Indeed she is




Why am I even bothering to reply to the rest of this at this point.



Symmetry said:


> Except Asuma was stated to be *near *Kakashi and Kakashi is stated *the strongest Konoha leaf ninja *
> 
> So with Asuma we are told Kakashi is the strongest and Asuma isn’t far behind
> 
> With Kabuto we get zero confirmation Kakashi even edges out Kabuto overall and are told they are close in power


And yet you've decided that Kabuto is the stronger one with _zero confirmation_ either way? Give me a break.


Symmetry said:


> Imagine thinking Kabuto running away from Kakashi when he’s deep into an enemy hidden village & Kakashi’s home turf where Kakashi has, potentially an entire village as backup means Kabuto is weaker


A bunch of stuff that Kabuto doesn't acknowledge whatsoever during that encounter. Also ignoring that the entire village was under attack and Kabuto was not alone either. Kabuto has run away twice. He can have the best reasons in the world but it doesn't do his portrayal ANY favors in matching up with Kakashi. I've never said that this means that Kabuto is weaker, by itself. It was only ever brought up to dispel the nonsense about Kabuto's confidence against Kakashi.



Symmetry said:


> You do realize Kabuto can both be a tad stronger than Kakashi and still on the same level right?
> 
> Like, you do understand those aren’t mutually exclusive


Like, you do understand that that's exactly what I've been saying about Kakashi being stronger than Kabuto, right?


Symmetry said:


> In fact, didn’t you JUST point that out with Asuma as if it was some smoking gun argument
> 
> In the two seconds it took you to go from making that Asuma argument to here did you forget that? Are you daft?


If I'm the kettle, you're the pot.


Symmetry said:


> Also love the implication that stats are the only thing that matter, as if arsenals and such don’t matter
> 
> Where’s that nuance at now?


lmao, I've already gone over Kakashi's arsenal and why it gives him the win over Kabuto. I'm not repeating myself because you can't read too good.  



Symmetry said:


> Considering the DB stats is a provable unreliable narrator, yes
> 
> Imagine bitching about me using the manga over DB stats
> 
> And thinking this HELPS ur argument


Imagine resting your entire argument on statements written by the same narrator that you are calling unreliable. DB stats can be inconsistent but not to the degree that one character can have better stats across the board and somehow be the weaker character. You're just being willfully ignorant if you think Kishi put Kabuto _above_ Kakashi in his own mind.


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## deltaniner (Jul 25, 2022)

P1 Kabuto~EoP1 Kakashi>Rusty Kakashi according to feats and portrayal.


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Why am I even bothering to reply to the rest of this at this point.


Because you're a Kakashi fanboy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Because you're a Kakashi fanboy


Who are you?


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## deltaniner (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Who are you?


Not a Kakashi fanboy.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Santoryu (Jul 25, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Not a Kakashi fanboy.


so you identify as female?  

@t0xeus 
it is your lucky coffee day


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## deltaniner (Jul 25, 2022)

Santoryu said:


> so you identify as female?


I identify as an Espada

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

@Symmetry I meant to tag you in my last post but misquoted your name


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> I identify as an Espada



And I identify as Maru


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## deltaniner (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Oh I saw your nothing burger of a post. If you weren't so focused on being a smartass dickhead then you would've comprehended that I meant in response to my arguments that you clearly disagree with but have seemingly nothing to say about.


@Symmetry has already said all that's needed to be said about why you're wrong.

If you weren't so focused on being a Kakashi fanboy and stanning him regardless of logic, maybe you'd realize you're wrong.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> @Symmetry has already said all that's needed to be said about why you're wrong.
> 
> If you weren't so focused on being a Kakashi fanboy and stanning him regardless of logic, maybe you'd realize you're wrong.


Okay, so nothing of value to say. Got it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)




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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

I'll fight you any day Aegon. I don't always agree with you but at least you're not a troll or a dickhead about it.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Speedyamell (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You also wouldn't need to tell a child that 5 is a bigger number than 4 but here we are.
> 
> Once again, zero fucking nuance absorbed from what I actually said.


Stop throwing around words you don't know how to use. "Nuance" is not a substitute for lack of reading comprehension. Nobody with reading comprehension will deny the implicit parity between Kakashi & Kabuto in P1.
The fact that your argument for who wins in a fight revolves around databook stats just highlights the ridiculousness of your claims. Those same databook stats don't stop you when it's time to compare Kakashi to characters with higher stats like sannin/itachi though

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Jul 25, 2022)

The person that has been the most condescending in the thread talking about others being dick heads...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I'll fight you any day Aegon. I don't always agree with you but at least you're not a troll or a dickhead about it.



Thank you  

To be fair, deltaniner is neither of those things either, he just doesn't mince his words much haha.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Stop throwing around words you don't know how to use. "Nuance" is not a substitute for lack of reading comprehension. Nobody with reading comprehension will deny the implicit parity between Kakashi & Kabuto in P1.
> The fact that your argument for superiority revolves around databook stats just highlights the ridiculousness of your claims. Databook stats don't stop you when it's time to compare Kakashi to characters with higher stats like sannin/itachi though


Don't speak of reading comprehension when you have none yourself.

My argument for Kakashi beating Kabuto does NOT revolve around databook stats. My argument regarding Kishi's portrayal of Kabuto's "parity" with Kakashi does. The same author that wrote those statements about Kabuto being on Kakashi's level also put Kakashi's stats well above Kabuto's. If Kishi intended to portray Kabuto ABOVE or EQUAL to Kakashi, the DB stats would have reflected that a lot more than they do. If you think Kishi is THAT internally inconsistent, then the statements being used to put Kabuto _above_ Kakashi in this thread are meaningless and completely unreliable. It's the same fucking narrator.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> The person that has been the most condescending in the thread talking about others being dick heads...


Well earned condescension. It doesn't just fall outta the fucking sky.

Try reading through this thread and see where the condescension started. Didn't see much going on with Aegon even though we completely disagreed. Boy you sure helped when you jumped in! Someone doesn't believe in practicing what they preach, methinks. Maybe don't dish what you can't take.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Speedyamell (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Don't speak of reading comprehension when you have none yourself.
> 
> My argument for Kakashi beating Kabuto does NOT revolve around databook stats. My argument regarding Kishi's portrayal of Kabuto's "parity" with Kakashi does. The same author that wrote those statements about Kabuto being on Kakashi's level also put Kakashi's stats well above Kabuto's. If Kishi intended to portray Kabuto ABOVE or EQUAL to Kakashi, the DB stats would have reflected that a lot more than they do. If you think Kishi is THAT internally inconsistent, then the statements being used to put Kabuto _above_ Kakashi in this thread are meaningless and completely unreliable. It's the same fucking narrator.


Rating databook stats that rank genin chunin and kage all on a 5 point system over implications from the actual manga certainly makes sense I leave you to the people that have the patience for your genius. 


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Well earned condescension. It doesn't just fall outta the fucking sky.


Complaining about others being dick heads while being the worst one in the thread is crazy


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Rating databook stats that rank genin chunin and kage all on a 5 point system over implications from the actual manga certainly makes sense I leave you to the people that have the patience for your genius.
> 
> Complaining about others being dick heads while being the worst one in the thread is crazy


Another stunning display of hypocrisy! Well done!


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Santoryu said:


> The points above have been systematically refuted


What is with some people and assuming because they’ve posted something before it means they’ve refuted everything and the case is closed ?


Santoryu said:


> Once Orochimaru witnessed Kakashi's seal he concluded that Kakashi had grown stronger (so rusty Kakashi>the Kakashi Orochimaru witnessed) and a chapter later noted that Kabuto operates on the same level as Kakashi (rusty at the time)


wait

So Orochimaru sees that Kakashi has improved

*And after seeing he has improved he states Kabuto = Kakashi*

This….helps my argument?

Thanks?




Santoryu said:


> and presumably Kakashi's own Intel.


If Jiriaya has enough intel on Kabuto to make this assertion *through Kakashi *then why does Jiriaya not have intel *on Kakashi *

You legit just argued that Jiriaya thinks Kabuto is equal to Kakashi based on what Kakashi told Jiriaya.


*So what do you think Kakashi said to Jiriaya about Kabuto to make Jiriaya think this?*

Kakashi CLEARLY must have said something to Jiriaya to make him make this scale, which would mean Kakashi would also need to believe it if he’s telling Jiriaya this

Like, I don’t get how Kakashi’s intel on Kabuto *in relation to himself *is being questioned here, which is as you just admitted what Jiriaya is going off of

Also interesting that this intel would come after he goes to train after feeling obsolete

Yet *another *example of Kishi being consistent with this



Santoryu said:


> This does not translate to him being Kakashi's exact equal, like Gai is. But rather, that Kabuto can compete with Kakashi.


I agree

Conversely, this means Kabuto can be *superior to Kakashi *and Kakashi can merely compete with Kabuto

Which is the case

Rusty Kakashi is inferior to, but can compete with, Kabuto



Santoryu said:


> the facts are that Kabuto fled twice from Kakashi


Why cite the first when you know it’s because he’s in foreign territory and in legit the heart of the leaf village whilst undercover?

Even mentioning this at all when you yourself know this to be true, (which is why you highlight the second time only and breeze by the first one) is just dishonest




Santoryu said:


> and the second time cited that he feared that Kakashi's sharingan would copy his abilities.


Copy his secrets

& yes, that is a legitimate fear, he does not wish to have his secrets copied, further empowering Kakashi including if he decides to fight other opponents later on

Not to mention Gai and another ninja was standing right next to Kakashi. And no, Kabuto not commenting on that doesn’t really mean anything as he has no need to state they are standing there as it is self evident to us seeing them there and Kabuto also seeing them.

You don’t need to verbally acknowledge something for something to exist




Santoryu said:


> This is an incoherent argument and I'd implore you to present the scan in question holistically because the logic used is contradictory.


Its funny you say this because when you look at it holistically and with context you realize it’s about Kabuto mostly and not Orochimaru as you insinuate

Kakashi indeed does mention Orochimaru as you stated



Now if I were to, say, interpret this in an un-holistic manner as you claim to loath, I’d use only this scan instead of looking at context

*In context *Kakashi spent, just before this, ample time praising Kabuto, and *concludes *his thought process *about Kabuto being skilled *with the statement of he’s becoming obsolete, out of his depth etc etc



Kakashi praises Kabuto, calling him “really something” analyzing his strengths, praises him at every corner and THEN says what we  are discussing. To read this holistically, see Kakashi praise Kabuto the entire time before this, and then somehow claim Kakashi was praising Oro instead of Kabuto is asinine

The subject of the entire scene is Kabuto, it’s Kabuto before Kakashi stated this and is Kabuto when he says he’s obsolete or out of his depth.


In the context of this specific scene, Kabuto isn’t a threat because of Oro, Oro’s threat level is elevated by having *Kabuto *at his disposal

That’s *Kabuto’s *hype and praise, and Kakashi feels threatened, again, by Kabuto, which is what you get when you read the entire scene

To even try and say it was about Oro when reading the entire thing is simply, as you’d put it, mendacious

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Okay, so nothing of value to say. Got it.


Pot meet kettle


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Pot meet kettle


Stop copying my homework, it's not a good look.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Thank you
> 
> To be fair, deltaniner is neither of those things either, he just doesn't mince his words much haha.


I'll take your word for it.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

Also, another interesting tidbit.

Kakashi initially (possibly) cucks down to Kabuto around the time of the Chunin Exams, which are covered by Databook 1. At this time, Orochimaru states Kabuto is no stronger than Kakashi.

Then, in the Search for Tsunade Arc (which is part of the time period covered by DB2), Jiraiya *again* states Kabuto is equal to Kakashi. The interesting part some Kakashi fans routinely allude to is that *DB2* Kakashi has *superior* stats to his *DB1* self, so these statements are apparently outdated.

Now, here's the shocking part few people are acknowledging. *So does Kabuto*! Kabuto literally has better stats in DB2 than in DB1. Check it out, I'm not lying, I even posted them below.

I actually feel this explains some of the confusion we've had. We were thinking only rusty Kakashi is equal to Kabuto and a less rusty Kakashi stronger, but the truth is, Kakashi AND Kabuto both grew stronger over the time period, with the growth of one balancing out the other's.

Here are Kabuto's DB stats.

Improved stats are bolded and italicized.


IntelligenceStrengthSpeedTotal42.54.5533.534.530_*4.5*__*3.5*_4.5533.5*3**5**32*4.53.54.5533.53532

And here are Kakashi's.

Improved stats are bolded and italicized again.


IntelligenceStrengthSpeedTotal5444.53.5435*33*5_*4.5*_4_*5*_3.5_*4.5*_35*34.5*54.5453.54.535*34.5*

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Or he's such a fucking moron that he gave Kakashi better stats nearly across the board when he actually thinks that Kabuto is stronger. Makes sense.


Or DB stats don’t equal overall power and don’t take into account every aspect of arsenal

And also that the manga > DB stats

Also fucking love how you sidestepped the Hiruzen Naruto thing because you know it shits all over your precious DB stats

You love to see it


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I didn't say Kakashi's taijutsu was > Gai's.


Meant to put the equal sign

I don’t see any reason to put P1 Kakashi’s cqc at Gai’s cqc level



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Which means he is less likely to land a hit with those chakra scalpels. Which is compounded by Kakashi's higher speed and sharingan precog. Inversely, these things make it much easier for Kakashi to land his Raikiri on Kabuto.


Except being less skilled is negated when legit touching his hands at all seriously nerfs you internally

Kakashi legit grabbing Kabuto’s hand to finesse him in cqc would result in Kakashi’s hand being unusable for the rest of the match, severely needing him

You’d need to assume Kakashi can finesse Kabuto, *who has better cqc feats than Kakashi btw *to such a degree that he never gets touched and also never touched Kabuto’s hands once

When did Kakashi get ultra instinct?




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Why am I even bothering to reply to the rest of this at this point.


Concession accepted

Also idk why, maybe you’re a masochist and likes to get stomped

I don’t judge




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And yet you've decided that Kabuto is the stronger one with _zero confirmation_ either way? Give me a break.


I’ve decided Kabuto is superior to rusty Kakashi

I also love that you admit there’s zero confirmation either way yet somehow think that proves Kakashi is superior, as if either way only applies one way



Also, Kakashi seeing Kabuto and fucking off to train because of Kabuto is pretty clear indication of who’s superior at that point




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> A bunch of stuff that Kabuto doesn't acknowledge whatsoever during that encounter


So unless someone doesn’t state something it doesn’t exist?

I guess since Kabuto doesn’t state backup exists, it just doesn’t exist

So long as Kabuto doesn’t acknowledge it, it doesn’t exist right?

Do you need everything to be spelled out for you to understand it? Have you not heard of the concept of inference?




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Also ignoring that the entire village was under attack and Kabuto was not alone either.


What?

the instance we are talking about the village isn’t under attack

What are you on about?



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He can have the best reasons in the world but it doesn't do his portrayal ANY favors in matching up with Kakashi.


It does if he has good reasons to

That’s what nuance is called

Again, the very thing you spent half your last post bitching about

The same thing you ROUTINELY seem to ignore

You legit, just now, exposed yourself as thinning context doesn’t effect portrayal and doesn’t matter

Which honestly explains a lot




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If I'm the kettle, you're the pot.


So no counter to the Asuma Kabuto Kakashi point?

Concession accepted here as well

Too damn easy




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Like, you do understand that that's exactly what I've been saying about Kakashi being stronger than Kabuto, right?


Oh no I do

I’ve just been explaining why that’s wrong

And winning btw



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Imagine resting your entire argument on statements written by the same narrator that you are calling unreliable. DB stats can be inconsistent but not to the degree that one character can have better stats across the board and somehow be the weaker character. You're just being willfully ignorant if you think Kishi put Kabuto _above_ Kakashi in his own mind.


This entire thing was you trying to justify DB stats > manga

I see through that bullshit. My entire argument rests in the feats and statements present in the manga

Your ONLY claim to Kakashi being better is DB statements, *that’s all you got *

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Or DB stats don’t equal overall power and don’t take into account every aspect of arsenal
> 
> And also that the manga > DB stats
> 
> Also fucking love how you sidestepped the Hiruzen Naruto thing because you know it shits all over your precious DB stats


People generally throw out the databook when something is *blatantly* contradicted by the manga. Nothing in the manga contradicts Kakashi's superior stats. I'm really curious what you think was going on in Kishi's mind when he wrote those stats down. Just no thoughts, head empty the entire time? He has two characters say that Kabuto is around Kakashi's level. Not equal to Kakashi, not better than Kakashi. Their stats do not contradict that sentiment.

If you want to say that the databooks do not take into account every aspect of a character's arsenal. Fine. How do you determine what it is and is not taken into account for Kabuto and Kakashi then? How do you know that Kabuto's stats would improve any more than Kakashi's when all is taken into account? Does it take the sharingan into account? The gates?



Symmetry said:


> Meant to put the equal sign
> 
> I don’t see any reason to put P1 Kakashi’s cqc at Gai’s cqc level


Kakashi is not better than or equal to Gai in taijutsu. But he is comparable. Kinda like how Kabuto is not better than or equal to Kakashi. But he is comparable.



Symmetry said:


> Except being less skilled is negated when legit touching his hands at all seriously nerfs you internally
> 
> Kakashi legit grabbing Kabuto’s hand to finesse him in cqc would result in Kakashi’s hand being unusable for the rest of the match, severely needing him
> 
> ...


What CQC feats are you talking about? Beating up on a mentally ill grandma? Or getting held in place by a 12 year old perhaps? Not sure how that holds a candle to Kakashi clashing with Zabuza's massive sword using a tiny kunai but hey, to each their own. Kakashi will see the chakra buildup on Kabuto's hands. He has numerous ways of feinting Kabuto. I do think that Kabuto _could_ fuck up Kakashi's day. But more often than not, he's hitting clones, getting feinted, losing trades, or just straight up taking a Raikiri.



Symmetry said:


> I also love that you admit there’s zero confirmation either way yet somehow think that proves Kakashi is superior, as if either way only applies one way


YOU admit that there's zero confirmation one way or the other and yet YOU'RE the one making the assertion that somehow these statements indicate that Kabuto is stronger than Kakashi. Baffling to say the least.



Symmetry said:


> Also, Kakashi seeing Kabuto and fucking off to train because of Kabuto is pretty clear indication of who’s superior at that point


Only on NF do we have people using RUNNING AWAY as proof of superiority.



Symmetry said:


> So unless someone doesn’t state something it doesn’t exist?
> 
> I guess since Kabuto doesn’t state backup exists, it just doesn’t exist


lmao, why are you assuming that it would be leaf ninja showing up to back up Kakashi when the entire vllage is under attack? It's just as likely that more sand ninja would come to back up Kabuto.


Symmetry said:


> I’ve just been explaining why that’s wrong
> 
> And winning btw


I would go on with the rest of this nonsense but I've finally realized that I'm speaking to a five year old and it doesn't feel right to bully children. You win kiddo. Go do the floss in fortnite as a celebration! Make your parents proud!


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## HollowArrow123 (Jul 25, 2022)

All jonins have their specialty and same power does not mean relative in areas of combat. So you can't automatically headcanon ways that Kabuto could just win against Kakashi. Power means to do something in a particular way.

Kakashi will ways win in combat against Kabuto 10/10 right of the back. However Kabuto can read the opponents and deceive them. That's why Kabuto avoids problem and he used the dead soul jutsu. Kabuto is a behind the scenes tactian. Kabuto purpose and fields of specialty is being surpassing because he was able to  deceive and fool Kakashi for a bit. This is unique because with this type of intelligence and his specialty allows for gathering of information to come out of Konoha and any information allows for the enemy at an advantage.
Kabuto can only potentially win if he has encountered Kakashi and spyed on him enough to gather alot of information to make measures to be able to defeat Kakashi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maximon (Jul 25, 2022)

I'm rooting for Kabuto since his display against the fallen Tsunade was so impressive.
But the pages of arguments are swaying me back and forth. 
i'm getting a food pill to keep up with this. 
stupendous work, people!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> People generally throw out the databook when something is *blatantly* contradicted by the manga.


True

And people generally throw out the DB *stats *at all times almost always because of how terrible they are

You forgot that part



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Nothing in the manga contradicts Kakashi's superior stats


Besides Kabuto’s superior feats?



Kabuto, AFTER fighting Tsuande in an extended cqc bout summoned two giant snakes, then fought Shizune using multiple jutsu,  fought Naruto which resulted getting hit by a rasengan by said Naruto and spending chakra regenerating and healing, still had enough chakra to summon Manda 

For reference, Naruto couldn’t summon Gamabunta without using ninetails chakra as even the full amount of his natural non Kurama reserves weren’t large enough.

The same Naruto Kakashi admits has higher chakra reserves than him 

Kakashi fought Zabuza by using one water clone and one water vortex and fucking dropped dead tired 

Kabuto’s stamina feat of fighting Tsuande, summoning two giant snakes (that honestly alone would gas Kakashi a lot) fighting Shizune, fighting Naruto, regenerating from Naruto and summoning Manda collective takes the FATTEST of shits over Kakashi’s stamina feats 

Yet according to your fucking flawless argument Kabuto has equal stamina to Kakashi because they both have a 3 in the DB

Absolutely brilliant 

 


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi is not better than or equal to Gai in taijutsu. But he is comparable.


Prove that 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> How do you determine what it is and is not taken into account for Kabuto and Kakashi then? How do you know that Kabuto's stats would improve any more than Kakashi's when all is taken into account? Does it take the sharingan into account? The gates?


Who knows?

maybe that’s why they are shit, and don’t take precedent over the manga at all ever?

Your literally just admitting the DB is flawed to the point where we can’t even tell what it does and does not take into account, never mind if it’s even right after we determine what it’s counting 

And your STILL pushing for that flawed source to be gospel 

Fucking wow man 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Beating up on a mentally ill grandma?


You mean the same grandma who has a 5 in taijutsu whilst Kakashi has a 4.5?

Your own fucking argument debunks itself 



Even more proof the DB is shit, Kabuto has a 2.5 in taijutsu, yet with chakra scalpels he matches Tsunade almost pound for pound in cqc 

So if chakra scalpels carries a 2.5 taijutsu user to fight a pitched cqc bout with someone with a 5, *then Kakashi with a 4.5 by your own logic is fucked



Even when I play by your rules you STILL lose*




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> with Zabuza's massive sword using a tiny kunai


that’s strength not Tai 

Nice try tho 

Keep at it 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But more often than not, he's hitting clones,


Clones? What clones?

With what stamina?

Kakashi used one water clone, got kicked in the back, chilled in a water prison, blocked Zabuza’s sword strike, used one fodder genjutsu illusion, one water jutsu with a water source and dropped dead 

Clones are notorious for chakra consumption, by feats Kakashi has, like, 2 in the tank before dropping unconscious 

But apparently Kakashi can be trading with Kabuto, fucking him up in cqc, throwing out raikiriMs and clone feinting him 


Dude gasses out during half of what I just said 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> YOU admit that there's zero confirmation one way or the other and yet YOU'RE the one making the assertion that somehow these statements indicate that Kabuto is stronger than Kakashi. Baffling to say the least.


No

I said the statements from Oro and Jman say Kabuto and Kakashi are relative 

Kakashi seeing Kabuto, praising him, feeling threatened by him and then going to train because of Kabuto puts Kabuto above him 

IN CONJUNCTION with his Sannin deadlock feats showing massively better stamina AND better cqc feats with scalpels as well as a good arsenal such as snake summons 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Only on NF do we have people using RUNNING AWAY as proof of superiority.


This is dumb 

I already explained Kabuto was deep in enemy territory, you just ignored that, so concession accepted 

Kakashi saw Kabuto, said he was impressed, said Kabuto was making him obsolete and then went to train to fix that 

And somehow that does nothing for you?

Good lord I’m having an aneurism trying to understand the cognitive dissonance here 




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> why are you assuming that it would be leaf ninja showing up to back up Kakashi when the entire vllage is under attack?


For the last time 

When Kakashi first fights Kabuto and Kabuto runs away, the leaf isn’t under attack 

Get this through your head 


the second time Kakashi has backup from Gai and another ninja AND Kabuto is also a medic, which, by the way, are supposed to, as per the inventor of the role of medical ninja, Tsuande said, should stay back and not fight if possible 

And you want him to fight Kakashi AND Gai AND the proctor?




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I would go on with the rest of this nonsense but I've finally realized that I'm speaking to a five year old and it doesn't feel right to bully children. You win kiddo. Go do the floss in fortnite as a celebration! Make your parents proud


Concession accepted 

Go hug that Kakashi body pillow now


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Imagine thinking the DB stats are gospel, then watching Kabuto fight Tsunade in cqc despite Tsunade having a higher cqc stat than Kakashi, and concluding that Kakashi > Kabuto in cqc 




I didn’t even wanna use the DB and it S T I L L cucks this guys arguments 

You love to see it


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, another interesting tidbit.
> 
> Kakashi initially (possibly) cucks down to Kabuto around the time of the Chunin Exams, which are covered by Databook 1. At this time, Orochimaru states Kabuto is no stronger than Kakashi.
> 
> ...


Gold find



Also worth pointing out Kabuto has feats of fighting Tsunade who has stats superior to Kakashi as well

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Gold find
> 
> 
> 
> Also worth pointing out Kabuto has feats of fighting Tsuande who has stats superior to Kakashi as well



Kabuto was also only half a tier below Kakashi in speed earlier in P1, so they were very likely relative in speed at the time. 

Kabuto was also more intelligent, apparently. 

Of course, Kakashi consistently has the clear upper hand in Taijutsu (and at least earlier on, Ninjutsu).


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## deltaniner (Jul 25, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto was also only half a tier below Kakashi in speed earlier in P1, so they were very likely relative in speed at the time.
> 
> Kabuto was also more intelligent, apparently.
> 
> Of course, Kakashi consistently has the clear upper hand in Taijutsu (and at least earlier on, Ninjutsu).


To be fair to Kakashi, it could be construed as Kabuto's intelligence stat being superior not necessarily due to tactics, but due to his medical and scientific knowledge.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 25, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> To be fair to Kakashi, it could be construed as Kabuto's intelligence stat being superior not necessarily due to tactics, but due to his medical and scientific knowledge.



Could definitely be.


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Also just because I don’t want to hear about this again, and because I don’t wanna be accused of ducking part of the post @Santoryu quoted I’ll respond here

Especially since, for some reason, it’s treated as a reputable post even though a simple cursory read of the manga debunks it

(No offence)



Santoryu said:


> Uchiha Itachi not going all out against part 1 Kakashi means very little when a younger version of the former humiliated a legendary sannin (Orochimaru). The fact of the matter is; on panel, Kakashi outperformed Orochimaru against Itachi.


It means more then very little, it in fact means quite a lot, since he was not holding back against Orochimaru, and Itachi can easily be holding back against Kakashi to such a degree that this comparison is worthless

in fact Kakashi’s admits blatant inferiority and got defeated by Orochimaru’s raw killer intent. For the record the only time that has ever happened again in the manga was Sakura and Sasuke being oneshot by Orochimaru.

Kakashi was solo’d to the exact same diff and degree as Sakura was

Orochimaru genuinely made Kakashi look like Sakura in that encounter

The fact that you even *attempted *to bring up Orochimaru here to bring *up *Kakashi as if we all don’t know this fact is extremely dishonest and frankly unbecoming of someone who fancies themselves some sort of an authority on these issues





Santoryu said:


> Perhaps you don't know this, but Itachi is not only significantly stronger than Orochimaru substantially by the latter's admission, but he's also substantially superior to a Part 1 Rusty Tsunade.


Perhaps you did not know this, but Itachi can also hold back to such a degree that he is weaker than P1 rusty Tsunade.




Santoryu said:


> Finally, unlike Orochimaru, Itachi was unable to quickly finish off Kakashi with his base arsenal, hence the need for the mightily detrimental Tsukuyomi.


Proof that Itachi needed Tsukuyomi as opposed to not purposefully wasting chakra  to make his lie to Kisame later that they need to leave more believable? Or, for the sake of wanking Kakashi, are you about to admit Itachi had genuine KI, and if so will you be packing that same heat when Itachi claims Base Jiriaya can solo himself with Kisame as backup?

Or is this a case of cherry-picking where you trust Itachi’s motives and intentions against Kakashi but not Jiriaya?

Again, the fact that you try this hard to draw a connection between Orochimaru and Kakashi despite us knowing Orochimaru




Santoryu said:


> This might come as a surprise to you, but landing a hit on a rusty Tsunade does not usurp the broad range of Kakashi's showings in part 1.



Indeed. However, landing multiple hits on Tsunade, a superior opponent to Kakashi and fighting a pitched battle with her does indeed supersede what Kakashi has shown. Subsequent feats, such as fighting Shizune, another Jonin, when taking into consideration that he did this after fighting Tsuande, ratifies this.




Santoryu said:


> Furthermore, Kabuto enhanced his own performance with pills.


Fortunately, Kabuto has access to such pills against Kakashi, and therefore this is a worthless distinction




Santoryu said:


> but to state that his feats are above Kakashi's is fanciful at best.


Fanciful is not the correct word here, insert factual and your proposition will be correct.




Santoryu said:


> Tsunade being chosen over Kakashi means very little here.


it means quite a lot, which is evident by you not explaining *why *it isn’t important, insinuating you don’t have a counter The elders blatantly state that they need a fifth Hokage because the village is so weakned that they need a powerful shinobi to protect the village. When Jiriaya accepts, they are willing to go on a wild goose chase to find Tsunade, when they have no confirmation they will find her, and even in their weakened state send a *Sannin *out to find her, weakening the village even more, on *the chance *that they may find her, all without ever even *considering *Kakashi.


They took all that risk, weakened their nation, sent out a Sannin all so that they didn’t have to settle for Kakashi when Jiriaya refuses.




Santoryu said:


> she also acknowledged his abilities to be up there with the best


What? This has to be amongst the most blatant and, frankly speaking, disgusting attempts of revisionist history. She says she expected Kakashi to hold his own better and he *failed *to do so, making her disappointed in him.

If you are speaking about her comments on him after Part one those are null and void to the discussion



Santoryu said:


> she also acknowledged his abilities to be up there with the best and this is further cemented when she thinks he is ready to take over from her after losing his Sharingan post-war.


Again, this was a different Kakashi. This was legit a post war arc Kakashi, and you just tried to transfer that Kakashi’s hype to P1 Kakashi. Did you think we wouldn’t notice that in between your arguments of P1 Kakashi you sneakily put in statements about a different Kakashi to pimp out the weaker version?

That’s some sneaky snake level stuff and real disingenuous.


Santoryu said:


> An even more rusty Kakashi beat an elite jounin (Zabuza) around his level twice despite protecting fodder on both occasions. Kakashi has the benefit of beating someone on his general level twice. Kabuto does not.


I would have you know that Kakashi was saved by that fodder the first time, and there’s zero indication had the kids not been there that Kakashi would have won. Absolutely non. No reason to assume he still wouldn’t be outfeinted

Kabuto has the benefit of fighting someone above Kakashi’s level and doing very well. Kakashi does not.


Santoryu said:


> Kabuo fled from Kakashi twice


The first time Kabuto was in enemy territory where reinforcements could be summoned at a moments notice

The second time Gai and another Jonin were present

Also interesting that you ignore in the first instance that Kabuto impressed Kakashi so much that Kakashi feels obsolete and goes out to train due to the threat Kabuto loses.


Santoryu said:


> Kakashi outperformed the efforts of two elite jounin (one of whom was stated to be not far from his general level) in a single chapter and garnered lavish praise from both Kisame and Itachi. The latter who makes _Sannin_ look like a secondhand facecloth


Outperforming two elite Jonin weaker than Kabuot does not help your case in the slightest

Itachi making Sannin look like a second hand facecloth is worthless when said Sannin makes Kakashi look like a third hand cum rag.

Kabuto fought someone stronger than Kakashi (Tsunade), fought extremely well and nearly won, posed a high diff battle for her, and then *after *having to fight said opponent went on to _stomp _another reputable Jonin, Shizune, something Kakashi has never shown the ability to do with such ease, and that’s not even counting how Kabuto did it after fighting Tsuande, who’s portrayal consists of legit, I kid you not, one tapping Shizune in the back of the head neg diff.





Santoryu said:


> So I'll say it again, your assertion that Kabuto has better feats than Kakashi is fanciful and quite simply;* wrong*.


It is not wrong, it’s completely factual and well supported. Kakashi’s bout with Zabuza is countered by Kabuto’s bout with Tsunade (followed by Shizune whom he frankly annihilates), putting Kabuto on top. 

Kakashi’s Itachi feat is unquantifiable on the account of Itachi holding back and not even wanting to kill Kakashi and be an enemy to the leaf, going so far as to lie to Kisame and state that a team of Itachi *and *Kisame can’t beat the same Base Jiriaya who lost to Orochimaru, who lost to Itachi, who also happened to demolish and embarrass Kakashi. It simply does not add up and therefore is unquantifiable and worthless in this discussion. It shows us Kakashi is stronger than Asuma and Kurenai, and that is admirable. It tells us *nothing *about his relation to Kabuto

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

Imagine wasting minutes of your life typing up a bunch of shit that isn't gonna be read when you coulda just been flossing in fortnite before mommy brings you your dinner.



Anyway, Kakashi dumps on Kabuto. High diff for rusty and mid diff for non-rusty. That's assuming that Kabuto doesn't come up with an excuse to run away again. The sharingan alone hard counters most of Kabuto's options. I guess that's why Kabuto was so scared of it. He didn't want Kakashi to copy his techniques, see through his techniques, and completely avoid his techniques. Which is exactly what would happen in a fight between them. Kakashi saw through Itachi's feints. Kabuto doesn't stand a chance of feinting Kakashi. Zabuza got manhandled on that bridge and he has better physicals than Kabuto. Kabuto doesn't have shit on Kakashi when it comes to range either. He's outclassed in every way other than durability and stamina. His durability is not enough to save him from a Raikiri and his stamina is the only thing that makes it a high diff fight for rusty Kakashi.


But yeah, they're on the same level. With Kakashi on the ceiling of that level and Kabuto on the floor.


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Imagine wasting minutes of your life typing up a bunch of shit that isn't gonna be read when you coulda just been flossing in fortnite before mommy brings you your dinner.


Imagine stating you are leaving and STILL coming back anyways

Fucking commit man, this is just sad




Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But yeah, they're on the same level. With Kabuto on the ceiling of that level and Kakashi on the floor


Fixed

Reactions: Like 1 | Lewd 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2022)

ctrl+f "I'm leaving".



I see the bad faith bullshit and poor intepretation skills extend beyond Naruto.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 25, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I would go on with the rest of this nonsense but I've finally realized that I'm speaking to a five year old and it doesn't feel right to bully children. You win kiddo.





Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> ctrl+f "I'm leaving".
> 
> 
> 
> I see the bad faith bullshit and poor intepretation skills extend beyond Naruto.



Still posting 

   

Maybe I was right when I said this 


Symmetry said:


> maybe you’re a masochist and likes to get stomped


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## Ayala (Jul 26, 2022)

Symmetry is beginning to remind me of WorldStrongest a bit

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 26, 2022)

Ayala said:


> Symmetry is beginning to remind me of WorldStrongest a bit



Marvel 2.0 incoming


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## Ayala (Jul 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Marvel 2.0 incoming



I'll take him on when he appears

Reactions: Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 26, 2022)

Ayala said:


> I'll take him on when he appears



I'm curious though. Why did that guy suddenly freak out and start saying nasty stuff?


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## Ayala (Jul 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm curious though. Why did that guy suddenly freak out and start saying nasty stuff?


I was kind of teasing him in some thread for a bit, and then he popped

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShadowBlade77 (Jul 26, 2022)

Kabuto runs away, as per canon. It's almost as if Kabuto's fans (all two of them) didn't read the manga...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 26, 2022)

OT, Kabuto wrecks this guy. Kabuto was equal to a stronger Kakashi (both are stated to be equal before and during the DB2 period in spite of both getting measurably stronger), this one gets _annihilated_.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 26, 2022)

Ayala said:


> I was kind of teasing him in some thread for a bit, and then he popped



I saw, lol 

Apparently he even came on the Discord under one or two disguises 

And apparently *before* his rage, Soldierofficial pretended to be him and said similarly nasty stuff to people


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## Architect (Jul 26, 2022)

Poor Tsunnanist...
Having to fight for Kabuto scrub since he humiliated their idol in CQC

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm curious though. Why did that guy suddenly freak out and start saying nasty stuff?


I have no clue tbh, I lowkey kinda feel for him I think he had anger issues 

He said some really nasty stuff to me that goes behind the banter and mudslinging here and crossed a lot of lines, but I don’t really hold him to it because again I think he had some issues and he was really nice to me afterwards, I think he genuinely felt bad about it. I mean hey, we all make mistakes, so as far as I’m concerned I don’t hold him to that


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## Ayala (Jul 26, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And apparently *before* his rage, Soldierofficial pretended to be him and said similarly nasty stuff to people





What is the meaning of this... Maybe Marvel is a Soldier dupe. Or maybe Marvel just copied soldier. I also always thought his outrage wasn't natural and looked a bit fake to me

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Ayala said:


> Symmetry is beginning to remind me of WorldStrongest a bit


You either live long enough to see yourself become worlds or you die before it happens


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## Hasan (Jul 26, 2022)

Santoryu said:


> This mendacious interpretation has been refuted.
> It was not merely Kabuto that prompted this, but the fact that *Orochimaru* also had someone like Kabuto under his command.
> In essence, he is referring to the enemy unit holistically.
> 
> ...


He was training because there was a potential all-out invasion of Konoha on the horizon. The motivation seems to have come from Hiruzen telling the Jounin Squad that he had full confidence in them, and if push came to shove, Konoha would respond with full-power. Refer to Chapter 93 - first 4 pages. The flashback literally accompanies Kakashi's training scene.

This thread is an excellent example of the Sannin-supporters opening a can of worms (as usual) to obscure the fact that they built a house on a weak foundation - it came crashing down shortly afterwards. This ~Kabuto downplay~ is nothing except a thinly-veiled attempt so that people won't realize the obvious fact that Sannin's title and a legend built over decades precedes them. It's absurd when you consider the discussion which happened in this thread is—

1. Orochimaru and Jiraiya stated that Kabuto is Kakashi-level.
2. Establish Kabuto > Kakashi by dancing around the fact that we have *direct* showings which firmly establish it is the other way around.
3. Dance around that fact by opening the aforementioned can of worms, because you know, everyone knows that Kakashi travels around collecting ninjutsu, rather than utilizing the opponents' techniques against them when he fights them... That it took Itachi 2 minutes to defeat Kakashi... It took Itachi 2 seconds to defeat Orochimaru with a technique that wouldn't have worked against Kakashi in the first place.

Whereas a far simpler and more intuitive notion was that Kakashi-level ninja are indeed capable of contending with the Sannin, which is the takeaway from Jiraiya's statement. Even if one is inclined to argue that they are weaker, they are certainly capable of posing a threat to a Sannin. That Kabuto was beating up Tsunade *because* he was Kakashi-level shinobi... Jiraiya made that remark after Kabuto 'nearly defeated' Tsunade. That Kakashi backing down against Orochimaru was understandable, given the circumstances. Would he have lost to Orochimaru if a fight ensued? Likely, but he would have learned that the Sannin were mostly just hype. That he clearly underestimated himself, not only because he goes on to fight Itachi without any such 'burden' but also because Shikaku -some 400 chapters later- states the idea that everyone apart from the Sannin-supporters have understood... namely that legends tend to be exaggerated.

What's more is that Kabuto does nothing against Tsunade that Kakashi couldn't have easily replicated. In addition to being able to utilize the same technique, he's more perceptive, faster and utilize more techniques. Chances are we might have seen Tsunade's mythical regeneration from decapitation, had it been Kakashi in Kabuto's place. It's appalling when you realize that the discussion is basically... **Kakashi-level* ninja who ran away from *Kakashi* twice by his own admission was beating up Tsunade who is stronger than Kakashi. This is clearly suggests that said *Kakashi-level* ninja who ran away from *Kakashi* twice by his own admission is stronger than *Kakashi*.*

It's Kakashi who has shown numerous techniques and competencies by that point, has all of them brushed aside because someone said that Kabuto was a Kakashi-level ninja.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Useful 2 | Kage 3 | Disagree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> it came crashing down shortly afterwards.


It really didn’t. Also not sure why you are attempting to brand everyone who side with Kabuto as Sannin supporters, when @Aegon Targaryen is no such Sannin stan, certainly not part of the band, especially not when he has the WA masters a whole tier ahead of the Sannin 



Hasan said:


> The motivation seems to have come from Hiruzen telling the Jounin Squad that he had full confidence in them, and if push came to shove, Konoha would respond with full-power. Refer to Chapter 93 - first 4 pages. The flashback literally accompanies Kakashi's training scene.


None of this detracts from the fact that Kakashi verbatim stated that after seeing Kabuto’s skills he fears he is becoming obsolete, and trains to fix that.

What you just outlined doesn’t really contradict that at all, Kakashi can train because he wants to live up to Hiruzen’s full confidence and also because Kabuto impressed him 

In fact you can easily say he didn’t feel like he could live up to Hiruzen’s confidence after seeing Kabuto and feeling he was becoming “obsolete”



Hasan said:


> Establish Kabuto > Kakashi by dancing around the fact that we have *direct* showings which firmly establish it is the other way around.


> says we have direct showings of the opposite 

> does not give these direct showings 

I firmly disagree, we do not. Kabuto has feats at worst equal to Kakashi and at best superior to Kakashi.




Hasan said:


> That it took Itachi 2 minutes to defeat Kakashi.


But Itachi was holding back? Why have you resorted to the same logic Jman elitists fall back on to claim Jman > Itachi & Kisame ?



Hasan said:


> It took Itachi 2 seconds to defeat Orochimaru with a technique that wouldn't have worked against Kakashi in the first place.


Except Itachi isn’t stated to be holding back against Orochimaru as he is Kakashi. Which means Kakashi fought a weaker Itachi.

Are you going to ignore *that Kurenai also lasted longer than Orochimaru? *

We have direct feats (and this time we actually do have these feats) that Itachi should be neg diffing Kurenai in cqc, yet she could break a genjutsu from Itachi (as if that doesn’t prove he’s holding back), and then after breaking it still duck his attack and block his kick 

If Itachi is needing himself to such a level, it’s clear your comparison falls flat on its face 



Hasan said:


> Whereas a far simpler and more intuitive notion was that Kakashi-level ninja are indeed capable of contending with the Sannin, which is the takeaway from Jiraiya's statement.


No

This is just blatantly not the portrayal 






The narrative was quite clear, Orochimaru is eons above Kakashi. The fact that the author made Kakashi lose to his raw killer intent, which has only ever solo’d people when there’s an enormous gap, can’t be ignored 

The only times before this that killer intent has ever solo’d somebody before was wave arc Sasuke before he could even walk on trees vs Zabuza, and Sakura vs Orochimaru 

Orochimaru quite literally solo’d Kakashi in the exact same manner *and in the same diff *as he did Sakura.

The idea that you can look at that and conclude Kakashi is near their level makes no sense 

For the record, Kabuto, who is Kakashi level, openly cucks down to an Orochimaru who’s suffering from the reaper deathseal and who’s so sick he’s legit coughing up copious amounts of blood on his death bed.



Hasan said:


> they are certainly capable of posing a threat to a Sannin


When the Sannin are extremely nerfed yes. Nerf anyone hard enough and Kakashi levels can be a threat to them.

Even then, Kabuto needed to tire Tsunade out to where she’s extremely fatigued, and then pop a food pill to amp his stats and restore his stamina so she’s extremely fatigued while he’s fresh, and despite him being fresh with the food pill and her starting that fight extremely tired she stills corners him to the point where he needs to use her blood phobia 

And this is *before *she gains her will of fire.

As far as we are shown via feats, an extremely exhausted Tsunade <=> fresh Kabuto 

Also throw in chakra scalpels really counters her fighting style of regen and cqc, so she had a matchup issue as well 



Hasan said:


> That Kabuto was beating up Tsunade *because* he was Kakashi-level shinobi..


Kabuto was beating up Tsunade because he was a Kakashi level opponent *AND *said Sannin was nerfed to an ungodly degree whilst Kabuto was not 

You can’t leave out that second portion 



Hasan said:


> Would he have lost to Orochimaru if a fight ensued? Likely, but he would have learned that the Sannin were mostly just hype.


This is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part. Kakashi was *ready to fight Orochimaru *

he backed down *because *Orochimaru made an attack.

Which was to flex his raw killer intent. That’s an attack, it’s pitiful, and that shows you the difference. Kakashi backed down *because he felt Orochimaru’s power and got demolished by it*

That’s the end of that.


Hasan said:


> not only because he goes on to fight Itachi without any such 'burden'


because Itachi was holding back.

Why do you continue to ignore this?



Hasan said:


> states the idea that everyone apart from the Sannin-supporters have understood... namely that legends tend to be exaggerated


Agreed 

Unfortunately, Kakashi didn’t go off of rep. Based off rep he was ready to fight Orochimaru and had a Raikiri prepped. He quit the moment Orochimaru sent Killer intent out, I.e th moment Oro gave an indication he’d fight and Kakashi felt his power 



Hasan said:


> What's more is that Kabuto does nothing against Tsunade that Kakashi couldn't have easily replicated. In addition to being able to utilize the same technique


What? Kakashi doesn’t have chakra scalpels,  idk what you are talking about here. Chakra scalpels were the entire reason Kabuto won besides the nerfs and food pills, Kakashi doesn’t have them

And they, FYI, also pose a huge issue for Kakashi here 


Hasan said:


> faster


debatable 



Hasan said:


> and utilize more techniques


And has an astoundingly smaller chakra pool to work with

Kabuto didn’t just fight Tsunade, he fought Tsunade, then had to fight a skilled Jonin in Shizune right after. Shizune isn’t some fodder and he did so after fighting Tsuande 

Via feats Kakashi gets gassed fighting one opponent of equal strength, he will certainly expel as much chakra as he did against Zabuza when he fights Tsuande. He can’t replicate Kabuto stomping Shizune after a Tsunade fight 

Also, more techniques don’t mean better than scalpels against Tsunade when scalpels are a huge counter to Tsunade 



Hasan said:


> Kakashi-level* ninja who ran away from *Kakashi* twice by his own admission was beating up Tsunade who is stronger than Kakashi. This is clearly suggests that said *Kakashi-level* ninja who ran away from *Kakashi* twice by his own admission is stronger than *Kakashi*.


Love how you ignore the context of Kabuto running away 

The first time he’s *undercover *in an enemy hidden village where reinforcements are legit everywhere around him. Him fighting Kakashi in the leaf gives away his cover and he’s dead as soon as that happens 

Despite this Kakashi is left feeling obsolete because Kabuto is skilled enough to escape a situation where Kakashi had the drop on him 

Kakashi had the drop on him, blew it, was left so impressed by getting finessed by Kabuto’s exit plan that he’s left feeling obsolete to the point where he goes off to train, and you somehow took that as superiority over Kabuto?

This is just dishonest 

The second time Kabuto is backed up by Gai and another shinobi as well, that isn’t good for Kabuto



Hasan said:


> It's Kakashi who has shown numerous techniques and competencies by that point, has all of them brushed aside because someone said that Kabuto was a Kakashi-level ninja.


No?

it’s because Kabuto also has great feats 

Something you ignore

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Hasan (Jul 26, 2022)

... You already had an elaborate discussion with @Semiotic Sacrilege. I merely gave my impression because writing sometimes is a good exercise. Where scans were needed, I indicated. If I haven't posted any, it's because my post fairly clearly indicates to a perceptive reader that this guy had the volumes infront of him when he wrote that post. Why do I need to post scans when I outright pointed to particular parts of the discussion - that you ought to have understood?  Sir Semiotic said that you argue in bad faith — I concur. This response of yours is a proof. Just notice how clunkily you quoted my post — just like last time. Nothing more needs to be said other the fact the opening part of your response wasn't warranted.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> ir Semiotic said that you argue in bad faith — I concur. This response of yours is a proof. Just notice how clunkily you quoted my post — just like last time.


This is basically a roundabout way of saying you don’t wanna actually engage in a discussion and paint me as some bad guy.

All I did was quote you where I disagreed, the idea that this is somehow bad faith is astonishing. If I’ve personally offended you (not sure why that would be) then I apologize I guess, but I did nothing but the standard of quoting and responding

That you first try to generalize and paint anyone who supports Kabuto as a Sannin supporter (whilst branding them inferior as always) and now try to paint me and the spin the narrative of me being some Ill spirited, bad faith debater, however, is not appreciated

I detest the consistent need to paint everybody you disagree with as either morally flawed with you at the high ground, or intellectually inferior for daring to disagree

You posted, I responded, that’s it. 



Hasan said:


> Nothing more needs to be said other the fact the opening part of your response wasn't warranted.


The opening moments were me disagreeing with you saying this


Hasan said:


> This thread is an excellent example of the Sannin-supporters opening a can of worms (as usual) to obscure the fact that they built a house on a weak foundation - it came crashing down shortly afterwards


If you wanna look at the response, you tried to paint everyone voting for Kabuto as a Sannin supporter and implied they’re either dumb or Ill intended (the brackets of “as usual” to opening a can of worms is a clear attempt to curry favour by attacking the group


I did nothing wrong in simply pointing out this makes no sense, that there are people who support Kabuto who wouldn’t be apart of the typical Sanin band classification, and that this overall was just unnecessary




Hasan said:


> I merely gave my impression because writing sometimes is a good exercise. Where scans were needed, I indicated. If I haven't posted any, it's because my post fairly clearly indicates to a perceptive reader that this guy had the volumes infront of him when he wrote that post. Why do I need to post scans when I outright pointed to particular parts of the discussion


Where did I ask you for scans? I never once asked for scans, merely that you provide proof. The proof you did provide verbally I had already addressed and you didn’t address my counter point despite apparently commenting on my discussion, you simply repeated points already made that I had touched on earlier. 

And at no point did I ask for scans at portions you explained without also going into that explanation regardless

Over all I’m left wondering why your so mad about this?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Hasan (Jul 26, 2022)

I would like to think that even if one is inclined to disagree with my views, they will at least acknowledge the fact that I put more into writing my posts than anyone else, with only a few members like @Mad Scientist and @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask who have put more effort in the recent years. *Everything* you disagreed with is already addressed in that post, but just like last time, you take a chunk — you give it your own spin and then try to refute that. This discussion isn't going to go anywhere except that I tell you to properly read and think before you respond, and then you will go on a rant about how I am an arrogant person who thinks 'his way or the highway' and I can't tell you what to do as you make a mess out of my post—just like you did last time. Consider, for instance, you posted scans of Orochimaru's confrontation with Kakashi. My post accounts for it and the associated argument, so from whence comes your disagreement? Your disagreements are nothing except bait and strawman.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## deltaniner (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> I would like to think that even if one is inclined to disagree with my views, they will at least acknowledge the fact that I put more into writing my posts than anyone else, with only a few members like @Mad Scientist and @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask who have put more effort in the recent years.





Hasan said:


> This discussion isn't going to go anywhere except that I tell you to properly read and think before you respond, and then you will go on a rant about how I am an arrogant person who thinks 'his way or the highway' and I can't tell you what to do as you make a mess out of my post.


Acts arrogant.

"Why do people call me arrogant?"

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Monarch (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> I would like to think that even if one is inclined to disagree with my views, they will at least acknowledge the fact that I put more into writing my posts than anyone else, with only a few members like @Mad Scientist and @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask who have put more effort in the recent years. *Everything* you disagreed with is already addressed in that post, but just like last time, you take a chunk — you give it your own spin and then try to refute that. This discussion isn't going to go anywhere except that I tell you to properly read and think before you respond, and then you will go on a rant about how I am an arrogant person who thinks 'his way or the highway' and I can't tell you what to do as you make a mess out of my post. Consider, for instance, you posted scans of Orochimaru's confrontation with Kakashi. My post accounts for it and the associated argument, so from whence comes your disagreement? Your disagreements are nothing except bait and strawman.


I just stumbled upon this thread after getting the notification.

Personally, you, among @Mad Scientist and @Symmetry ( WS ? ) are on my list of top-tier debaters and posters on this site. 

I haven't glanced at the entirety of the debate but based on the length of the rebuttals and their intensities I can tell it's gotten a bit heated. 

My advice to all of you would be to carry on this debate respectfully and if neither side can come to a mutual understanding, it's best to agree to disagree. That way both points remain conserved, without conflict between the parties.

Reactions: Friendly 5


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> they will at least acknowledge the fact that I put more into writing my posts than anyone else


W-what? This has to be the most arrogant thing I’ve ever read. You are not *entitled *to somebody “acknowledging you” )/ complementing you. The fact that you think I’m in the wrong for responding to you without first congratulating you for writing about a paragraph of text is insane

You are not owed my respect, I am not required to praise you simply because you wrote more then others.

Do you know why I actually go on record and do praise posters like @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask  ?

Because unlike you they aren’t condescending, don’t feel entitled to praise and don’t complain when I don’t give it.

They are writing that much because they are genuinely good posters. You just proved your doing it so people can view you as superior, and you want that fed by me acknowledging it, and since this attitude didn’t impress me and flopped and I didn’t , your genuinely complaining about it

That’s…wow

You know what’s even more funny. Even though we’ve been posting rather rudely, I STILL out of good faith apologized even though I don’t think I did anything wrong.




Symmetry said:


> If I’ve personally offended you (not sure why that would be) then I apologize I guess, but I did nothing but the standard of quoting and responding


Legit apologized JUST because I didn’t wanna overstep, but this, right here, shows me I shouldn’t have been that gracious. That you genuinely told me you *expect *to be praised out the gate for your posts tells me all I need to know



Hasan said:


> *Everything* you disagreed with is already addressed in that post, but just like last time, you take a chunk — you give it your own spin and then try to refute that


This is an open discussion and anyone can read. I responded systematically to everything you said, and I absolutely did not spin things at all.

YOU for example were the one who tried to use the Kakashi’s feats against Itachi as proof, even though I already printed out with my earlier discussion he was holding back, a fact you failed to address, so I legit just restated that, and you still didn’t address it.

You are the one who is still trying to spin things, which is why you give cryptic responses without referencing anything so you can try and stay hidden behind a veil of vagueness

It’s not working



Hasan said:


> Consider, for instance, you posted scans of Orochimaru's confrontation with Kakashi. My post accounts for it and the associated argument


…

I know you accounted for it

And I quoted that part

Did you not read this?



Hasan said:


> Would he have lost to Orochimaru if a fight ensued? Likely, but he would have learned that the Sannin were mostly just hype. That he clearly underestimated himself, not only because he goes on to fight Itachi without any such 'burden' but also because Shikaku -some 400 chapters later- states the idea that everyone apart from the Sannin-supporters have understood... namely that legends tend to be exaggerated.





Symmetry said:


> This is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part. Kakashi was *ready to fight Orochimaru *
> 
> he backed down *because *Orochimaru made an attack.
> 
> ...





Symmetry said:


> because Itachi was holding back.
> 
> Why do you continue to ignore this?





Symmetry said:


> Agreed
> 
> Unfortunately, Kakashi didn’t go off of rep. Based off rep he was ready to fight Orochimaru and had a Raikiri prepped. He quit the moment Orochimaru sent Killer intent out, I.e th moment Oro gave an indication he’d fight and Kakashi felt his power


Did you not read this?

You did indeed comment on the Oro scans, explaining why you think Kakashi would have realized his hype was overblown even though he’d lose.

*I responded to each point you gave in favour of this assertion *

Your own example of me strawmaning you and not addressing your points is legit an example of me point for point addressing your argument



Hasan said:


> t that I tell you to properly read and think before you respond, and then you will go on a rant about how I am an arrogant person who thinks 'his way or the highway' and I can't tell you what to do as you make a mess out of my post.


Imagine condescendingly telling someone to think before they post, implying they didn’t think at all, and then complain if I point out how condescending this sounds?

If you don’t want to quote my post and prove why I’m wrong, just say that. Just know everyone can see our exchange and they can see I absolutely reasoned to all your relevant points and didn’t spin them.

And I ask you to refrain from giving me advice, if it comes from questionable sources, present company included, I will not heed it.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 26, 2022)

Hasan said:


> I would like to think that even if one is inclined to disagree with my views, they will at least acknowledge the fact that I put more into writing my posts than anyone else, with only a few members like @Mad Scientist and @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask who have put more effort in the recent years. *Everything* you disagreed with is already addressed in that post, but just like last time, you take a chunk — you give it your own spin and then try to refute that. This discussion isn't going to go anywhere except that I tell you to properly read and think before you respond, and then you will go on a rant about how I am an arrogant person who thinks 'his way or the highway' and I can't tell you what to do as you make a mess out of my post—just like you did last time. Consider, for instance, you posted scans of Orochimaru's confrontation with Kakashi. My post accounts for it and the associated argument, so from whence comes your disagreement? Your disagreements are nothing except bait and strawman.


I strongly agree that this style of debating is unbelievably annoying. Replying to and picking apart _every single sentence_ of an argument instead of taking everything into account. That's why these things get so far off track from the original points and it becomes an exercise in sifting through weeds. It really is just an attempt to create as many strawmen as possible so that your original point loses all cohesion and you're left trying to defend a mutated version of what you actually said. It's fucking exhausting. And it's pretty much how any "debate" goes around here. So you're better off just dropping your opinion as if it's a fact and ignoring any replies that you get, for your own sanity.

Reactions: Like 4


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## deltaniner (Jul 26, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I strongly agree that this style of debating is unbelievably annoying.


Does


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Replying to and picking apart _every single sentence_ of an argument instead of taking everything into account.


This


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> That's why these things get so far off track from the original points and it becomes an exercise in sifting through weeds.


Make


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It really is just an attempt to create as many strawmen as possible so that your original point loses all cohesion and you're left trying to defend a mutated version of what you actually said. It's fucking exhausting.


You


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And it's pretty much how any "debate" goes around here. So you're better off just dropping your opinion as if it's a fact and ignoring any replies that you get, for your own sanity.


Mad?

Reactions: Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## Hasan (Jul 26, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I just stumbled upon this thread after getting the notification.
> 
> Personally, you, among @Mad Scientist and @Symmetry ( WS ? ) are on my list of top-tier debaters and posters on this site.
> 
> ...


First of all, thank you. It's an honor.

Secondly, there's no debate to be had. I just told him as nicely as I could that his questionable debating etiquette wasn't something I was going to entertain, because he has done it before. I gave him the benefit of doubt, and then it devolved into what it has now. A wonderful illustration of what I am talking about are two responses to the very post that you're responding to—his and Semiotics.

... Look at his response above and then read Semiotic's below. Be honest — which one of the two posters 'actually' read it?



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I strongly agree that this style of debating is unbelievably annoying. Replying to and picking apart _every single sentence_ of an argument instead of taking everything into account. That's why these things get so far off track from the original points and it becomes an exercise in sifting through weeds. It really is just an attempt to create as many strawmen as possible so that your original point loses all cohesion and you're left trying to defend a mutated version of what you actually said. It's fucking exhausting. And it's pretty much how any "debate" goes around here. So you're better off just dropping your opinion as if it's a fact and ignoring any replies that you get, for your own sanity.


Thank you!

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Symmetry (Jul 26, 2022)

Framing the person who agrees with him as logical and framing me as illogical, naturally, because I am in opposition to him I see?

Very classy.

Saying he, as “nicely as possible” said he wouldn’t entertain my etiquette is some serious revisionist history. The constant snark and conceit packed behind every word, with a constant air of superiority (present in the post above, plain to see) as well as attacking me for, get this, not praising him for responding to me, isn’t what I’d call nice. It was all snark and conceit veiled behind pretty words.

The fact that I apologized despite not feeling I was wrong just to make sure I communicated properly that I didn’t want to be too mean or get too personal, only to then be continuously labelled as some bully and unreasonable mid slinging debater despite being the one who extended that olive branch legit just because I felt bad if I personally offended him is just baffling.

what I do want to point out is that this post right here 



Symmetry said:


> It really didn’t. Also not sure why you are attempting to brand everyone who side with Kabuto as Sannin supporters, when @Aegon Targaryen is no such Sannin stan, certainly not part of the band, especially not when he has the WA masters a whole tier ahead of the Sannin
> 
> 
> None of this detracts from the fact that Kakashi verbatim stated that after seeing Kabuto’s skills he fears he is becoming obsolete, and trains to fix that.
> ...


Has still yet to receive a response *about its subject matter *as opposed to dismissing it outright and framing me as illogical without actually getting down and debating it 

What essentially happened here was he commented on my points, I commented back, he got mad at me for how I commented back and explains why he’s mad, I quote the reasons why he’s mad and show how it’s unwaaranted but I still apologize anyways, dude still doesn’t wanna talk about the subject matter and proceeds to attack me some more, and then we end up here 


Legit just stop making this a match of who can insult the other and just respond to the post by actually talking about the manga,   or just dip and say “I don’t wanna”

Genuinely fine with either, but riddling your posts with a condescending attitude, snarky remarks that all are personal attacks, and THEN trying to dip just lacks class.


And again, for the _*second time now,*_ I will _*again *_apologize if, for some reason, my initial post came off as too harsh ( I still don’t think it did) and you got offended or something by it. I completely disagree with the idea that I did anything wrong, but for the simple fact that it caused you grief, even if it by all means shouldn’t have, I still apologize regardless.

I however do not appreciate the continuous attempt of framing me as a bully, incompetent, inferior etc. etc and I also don’t appreciate the constant conceit and presumption of superiority that riddles all the posts of yours pertaining to me.

Regardless, I doubt this will change, but I’m not one to leave things unsaid.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## maximon (Jul 26, 2022)

For what it's worth, kabuto is winning.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 26, 2022)

Sleepless said:


> Kabuto has abilities which can one-tap Kakashi pretty easily and they ignore durability so Kakashi would need to avoid h2h combat.


Kunai do the same, Itachi removed the arm of Oro (one of the most durable fighters in the series) with a one handed draw

There’s nothing special about medical scalpel, stabbing someone in the chest or slicing at the chest with a kunai is legitimately more deadly, Kakashi nearly instantly killed many sound ninja with kunai slices while flickering, kid Obito instantly disabled a Jounin 3x his size who then dropped dead with one kunai thrust, EMS Sasuke was immediately disabled by a single slow Katana thrust by Madara then slipped into a coma two seconds later, EMS Madara was immediately disabled and was dead before he reached the ground from a Katana thrust by Hashirama, every fodder on the planet carries edged weapons

Kakashi has Raikiri which makes a far larger wound than katanas, and can dismember and bisect bodies easier than any weapon

Reactions: Like 2


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## jesusus (Jul 26, 2022)

Kabuto negs this fodder.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## HollowArrow123 (Jul 26, 2022)

So who's winning the argument?


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 26, 2022)

HollowArrow123 said:


> So who's winning the argument?


Shazam, unbelievably.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## HollowArrow123 (Jul 27, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Shazam, unbelievably.


Many things are interpretations but people wanna always act like they know all the answers all the time. So listening is better then tryna put up a defensive arguement to keep nailing your arguement. Eventually you will realize people don't really change minds but gather a stronger defense from over viewing their own interpretations.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Hasan (Jul 28, 2022)

HollowArrow123 said:


> So who's winning the argument?


Is this related to the match-up or what I said? If it's the latter, then there's actually no discussion, but don't let the 'responses' take your attention away from the fact that the most significant/overarching aspect of my post was the meta-argument that the approach employed by the Kabuto's side was bad. Had the proper respond followed, you would have seen those 'details' put into correct perspective.

... Had I taken bait and played his game, and given that we were both dead set on proving our arguments and time was plenty, the readers would have been left scratching their heads after a while - when they would have asked: "How the hell did _Mizuki_ end up in this mess?". Trust me when I say this. I have been in too many of these sort of discussions that I can see from a thousand miles away where they would lead to. People underestimate the branching effect due to the endless bickering over details without any insight as to why you are doing it. This is why it's far better to take a few steps back and ask the question: _Why?_



HollowArrow123 said:


> Many things are interpretations but people wanna always act like they know all the answers all the time. So listening is better then tryna put up a defensive arguement to keep nailing your arguement. Eventually you will realize people don't really change minds but gather a stronger defense from over viewing their own interpretations.


I recommend reading the old tournament matches, assuming they are still there in the archives. Apparently there has been some pruning of the older material.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Kage 1


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## Itachi x Tenten (Jul 28, 2022)

HollowArrow123 said:


> So who's winning the argument?


based off polls alone, it seems more people's opinions are that

P1 Kakashi > P1 Kabuto >~ Rusty P1 Kakashi


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 28, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> It’s not just Orochimaru who says Kabuto = Kakashi, Jiriaya says it as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well being a rival doesn’t mean equal strength though, all rivals in the manga aren’t equal, that includes the Sannin, that’s clear as Jiraiya in the same panel is claiming only he can take down Oro with another Sannin sitting next to him 

Most of this is irrelevant since we have a bevy of feats from them in combat to draw a substantiated conclusion, and the clone user with the same digging technique and an equally deadly one shot melee attack has the significant advantage

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 28, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well being a rival doesn’t mean equal strength though, all rivals in the manga aren’t equal, that includes the Sannin, that’s clear as Jiraiya in the same panel is claiming only he can take down Oro with another Sannin sitting next to him


I agree with this completely 



DaVizWiz said:


> Most of this is irrelevant since we have a bevy of feats from them in combat to draw a substantiated conclusion, and the clone user with the same digging technique and an equally deadly one shot melee attack has the significant advantage


Unfortunately Kakashi has way less stamina then Kabuto, nor does he possess giant snake summons that would at bare minimum require substantial chakra (for someone like Kakashi anyways) to take down.

Especially when Kabuto, with a food pill, has the upper hand in cqc as well

And also especially because chakra scalpels aren’t a singular jab but a buff that lasts on his hands for prolonged cqc exchanges 

Raikiri is a jab you throw out once, scalpels makes everything your hands ever touch from that moment on internally fucked, and it takes less chakra


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 28, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Unfortunately Kakashi has way less stamina then Kabuto, nor does he possess giant snake summons that would at bare minimum require substantial chakra (for someone like Kakashi anyways) to take down.


There is no basis for this though.
Kakashi's stamina is only an issue if he prolongs the use of sharingan .

And is there a panel of p1 kabuto summoning snakes ? Or was it just manda because orochimaru gave his blood for that ? I can't seem to recall.


Symmetry said:


> Especially when Kabuto, with a food pill, has the upper hand in cqc as well


Kakashi has atleast some of Gai's moves copied ( considering he has access to the primary lotus ) , has precog and can open the first gate for a temporary boost and front lotus . 
So no . Kabuto is no where near better than Kakashi. He got trapped and finessed by Kid Naruto IIRC .




Symmetry said:


> And also especially because chakra scalpels aren’t a singular jab but a buff that


Means nothing If Kakashi can create clones to deal with them . He cant affect Kakashi if he is busy with kage bunshins. Even kid Naruto was able to trap him with just one clone. 




Symmetry said:


> Raikiri is a jab you throw out once, scalpels makes everything your hands ever touch from that moment on internally fucked, and it takes less chakra


Raikiri is a jab that needs to be used only once. Kabuto is pretty much done after that.  Even if he survives he's a sitting duck for a follow up. 

And i dont think it takes less chakra. Otherwise he wouldn't roid himself before using that .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 28, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kakashi's stamina is only an issue if he prolongs the use of sharingan .


Which is IC his fighting style and something he did for Zabuza, who Kabuto is IMO superior too

He will indeed have it on here and with it on we’ve seen Kabuto eclipses him in stamina 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And is there a panel of p1 kabuto summoning snakes


Good catch. I originally though this was Kabuto alone but he actually needs Orochimaru for it 





Leaf Hurricane said:


> can open the first gate for a temporary boost and front lotus .


Which if it doesn’t KO Kabuto (which it won’t due to regen, but Kakashi doesn’t know that) he’s left vulnerable 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> has precog


And Kabuto has food pills to amp himself as well as chakra scalpels 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kabuto is no where near better than Kakashi


Duelling with fatigued Tsunade > being defeated in cqc by Zabuza 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Means nothing If Kakashi can create clones to deal with them


With what stamina?
This is extremely taxing for him, he created 1 water clone, used 1 water jutsu and chilled in a water prison for a few minutes and dropped unconscious 

This isn’t sustainable especially if it’s prolonged cqc before this 

Also Kabuto was able to stop Kakashi sneak attacking him and sensed his presence, so Kakashi failed to get the drop on Kabuto once before out of combat, which is much easier then within combat 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> He cant affect Kakashi if he is busy with kage bunshins.


With what stamina is Kakashi doing this 

He’s got, like, 2 kage bunshins in the tank and that’s pushing it 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Raikiri is a jab that needs to be used only once.


Provided it hits 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Even if he survives he's a sitting duck for a follow up.


Unless, while Raikiri hits him, he _touches _Kakashi somewhere 

Seriously a touch the heart whilst he takes a non lethal but extremely debilitating Raikiri is a net win for Kabuto thanks to regen 

Like he won’t be able to fight but he’ll be alive and eventually get up and leave, Kakashi will be dead 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Otherwise he wouldn't roid himself before using that .


He just finished running away from Tsuande to the point of fatiguing her, and she’s even in P1 a woman with great stamina 

He tired her out and then popped a pill to get back to full.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 29, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Which is IC his fighting style and something he did for Zabuza, who Kabuto is IMO superior too
> 
> He will indeed have it on here and with it on we’ve seen Kabuto eclipses him in stamina


Against Zabuza he had 4 people to protect. Obviously he'd want to end it quickly .
It's not the same situation as with a 1 v1 against kabuto.

Eclipse.. my jesus.... that's heavy. You talk as if it's a 2 tier gap. 


Symmetry said:


> Which if it doesn’t KO Kabuto (which it won’t due to regen, but Kakashi doesn’t know that) he’s left vulnerable


Lotus is KO'ing kabuto.
Let's not give kabuto any unnecessary durability feats. 
It's too fast he won't even be able to prep for impact like with Naruto's slow ass Rasengan build up.

Even if he survives , he is just sitting right there for a follow up finish, stuck in the ground ass up and regenning or something. 



Symmetry said:


> And Kabuto has food pills to amp himself as well as chakra scalpels


It does not neutralize precog. Food pills or not kakashi can still see his every move. Now Kabuto will be cutting air on food pills.




Symmetry said:


> Duelling with fatigued Tsunade > being defeated in cqc by Zabuza


No it's not.
Tsunade wasn't even fighting. She was a miserable wreck . Anyone would have kicked around that tsunade if they knew abouther phobia.
Even Jiraiya didn't give her any respect as a fighter in that episode that's how far removed she was.
And Kabuto prepped for that shit.

Kakashi on the other hand went into enemy lands un prepared, had the bagage of 3 kids and an old man to save.
Not even remotely the same scenario.

BUt you fail to mention the same guy who duelled with a fatigued tsunade couldn't wrestle himself free from kid naruto's clone ffs.




Symmetry said:


> With what stamina?
> This is extremely taxing for him, he created 1 water clone, used 1 water jutsu and chilled in a water prison for a few minutes and dropped unconscious
> 
> This isn’t sustainable especially if it’s prolonged cqc before this
> ...


If it's just cqc, he won't need water clones and water jutsus . So saving a lot of chakra right there .
Unlike zabuza kabuto can not counter any of kakashi's ninjutsu. IF he sends a water dragon like he did vs Zabuza then kabuto can do fuck all.
Kakashi doesn't even need all this. He can use precog to grab any of kabuto's jabs ( kabuto's only options ) like Kid Naruto did and rip him a new one with raikiri. If Kabuto couldn't over power a beaten up Kid Naruto who collapsed right after, kakashi is going to treat him like a 7 yr old nephew who wants to spar .

And also Kabuto infiltrated enemy territory that time, so to say he was not expecting some resistance or an ambush is foolish. Especially with respect to sasuke who orochimaru saw Kakashi was protecting.

If you actually think kabuto ebtered konoha, went to kill sasuke, the last uchiha who every one knows is orochimaru's target, and did not expect any high tier ninja mightshow up, i don't know what to say.




Symmetry said:


> With what stamina is Kakashi doing this
> 
> He’s got, like, 2 kage bunshins in the tank and that’s pushing it


Lmao what ?
Really man ?

He made more than that when he was out of chakra after figting zabuza on the bridge and you are saying this .
Pathetic tbh.

Also, Not that kabuto warrants any more than 2 . One to catch his ass and the other to raikiri . Just like Kid Naruto did.



Symmetry said:


> Provided it hits


Kid Naruto found a way to land his hit and Kabuto could do fuck all about it being a tier stronger. He couldn't even free himself from a 12 yr old in time .
Kakashi will be just fine landing it.
Once his dogs get him or his one of the 2 allotted kage bunshin grab him ala Naruto, Kabuto is fucked.



Symmetry said:


> Unless, while Raikiri hits him, he _touches _Kakashi somewhere
> 
> Seriously a touch the heart whilst he takes a non lethal but extremely debilitating Raikiri is a net win for Kabuto thanks to regen


lol.... Sharingan man.
That's the whole point of having sharingan and using raikiri . Kakashi can see him trying to touch and adjust accordingly.
You think sharingan won't see that unusual chakra build up near the arms and be wary ? You talk as if kakashi is an amateur . He is rusty only physically, not tactcially. 
If Kabuto is held in place by the ninken or the other clone, he isn't touching kakashi or himself. 
He's a sitting duck at that point. 



Symmetry said:


> Like he won’t be able to fight but he’ll be alive and eventually get up and leave, Kakashi will be dead


No... Raikiri is a fist size hole near your heart. Even 50 percent of the heart struck means kabuto is dead before kakashi is .





Symmetry said:


> He just finished running away from Tsuande to the point of fatiguing her, and she’s even in P1 a woman with great stamina
> 
> He tired her out and then popped a pill to get back to full.


Yet he couldn't wrestle himself free from a kid. That's his strength feat . 
And Kakashi won't chase him like Tsunade did. He's not an idiot like p1 tsunade. She's in a miserable state and herself states she is not as she was before . 
Kakashi can always send his ninken to pressure him and tire him out . 
If Kabuto stops to hit one of the dogs, the others will grab him. A much physically superior Zabuza couldn't get free from their grasp . 
Unlike Tsunade cqc is not Kakashi's only option so he doesn't need to chase .
Unlike Kakashi CQC is kabuto's only option so has to come closer at some point . 
So i'll let you decide who has to approach who in order to have a chance at winning. ( It's kabuto btw ) .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maximon (Jul 29, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> No it's not.
> Tsunade wasn't even fighting. She was a miserable wreck . Anyone would have kicked around that tsunade if they knew abouther phobia.
> Even Jiraiya didn't give her any respect as a fighter in that episode that's how far removed she was.
> And Kabuto prepped for that shit.



If I may I'd like to chime in only on this part.
I'd agree that Tsunade was rusty and Kabuto was prepped, but sort of disagree with the rest.
Jiraiya's disrepect for Tsunade as a fighter is unfounded.
The whole fight with Tsunade is all feats for Kabuto imo. He didn't resort to hemophobia till the very end.
And you kind of miss the dynamics of that battle.
Fallen Tsunade with proper breaths was still extremely formidable. 
From the duo's formulated plan, it is implied that there was no way for the both of them to take on a raging Tsunade.
They could only make progress by tipping all the scales in their favour. 
The fact that Kabuto was able to keep up with her, then with boosts, decisively neutralize her power, which was unprecedented, was a massive testament to his prowess.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Heaven or Hell (Jul 29, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Yeah, but Orochimaru said that they were "on the same level". Clearly Orochimaru, who hadn't seen Kakashi in a decade or more, would know better than Kishi and his silly databooks, right? I mean, there's zero nuance or grey area in the statement, "on the same level". Seems pretty clear cut to me.


It's not just Orochimaru.

Jiraiya said the same thing (that Kakashi ~ Kabuto)

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 29, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> I agree with this completely
> 
> 
> Unfortunately Kakashi has way less stamina then Kabuto, nor does he possess giant snake summons that would at bare minimum require substantial chakra (for someone like Kakashi anyways) to take down.
> ...


With the pill the stamina issue isn’t really an issue, and Kabuto did nothing without the soldier pill so his stamina could also be shit

Kakashi has a food pill here, Kabuto has no advantage

Raikiri splits people apart with ease and leaves a hand sized cavity in them, easily just as deadly if not clearly more than the fine cutting scalpel


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 29, 2022)

Heaven or Hell said:


> It's not just Orochimaru.
> 
> Jiraiya said the same thing (that Kakashi ~ Kabuto)



And that was in the arc corresponding to DB2, by which time Kabuto (not just Kakashi) got stronger.


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## Symmetry (Jul 31, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Against Zabuza he had 4 people to protect.


Kind of a sidetrack from this point but Honestly I fail to see how those children got in the way. Kakashi still gets out feinted either way as that had nothing to do with the kids at all, which means he still ends up in the water prison anyways.

Anyways in terms of the sharingan thing, Kakashi also uses it instantly against Zabuza even when it turns into a 1 v 1 with him 

Kakashi also almost always brings it out when there’s somebody of his power level on the field. We genuinely have zero reason to assume he wouldn’t use it 

Also his cqc skills if he doesn’t use it take a massive plummet and therefore he gets scalpelsed



Leaf Hurricane said:


> It's not the same situation as with a 1 v1 against kabuto.


He’d still use it or suffer the consequences 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Lotus is KO'ing kabuto.
> Let's not give kabuto any unnecessary durability feats.


Regeneration hard counters 

Taijutus outperforming the rasengan is unlikely, even if it is the lotus 

For example the lord I did some damage to Gaara’s body, a rasengan would have killed him instantly 





Leaf Hurricane said:


> It's too fast he won't even be able to prep for impact


It’s also featless. Gaara was able to block even though his speed was way lower than Base Lee’s, Kabuto isn’t being bitzed by this 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> he is just sitting right there for a follow up finish, stuck in the ground ass up and regenning or something.


And whilst he’s regenerating Kakashi is limp on the ground from strain. Kabuto eventually gets up after regenerating, Kakashi doesn’t 

So it ends in a victory for Kabuto 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> It does not neutralize precog. Food pills or not kakashi can still see his every move


Seeing every move doesn’t mean you can keep up. By this logic genin Sasuke should smack Kisame in cqc as he can reads Kisame’s moves 

In reality with the food pill amp Kabuto would have the clear advantage especially with oneshot scalpels 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Tsunade wasn't even fighting


She quite literallly was 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> She was a miserable wreck .


Indeed, and still superior to Zabuza 

Zabuza doesn’t neg diff one tap other Jonin 




Leaf Hurricane said:


> Even Jiraiya didn't give her any respect as a fighter in that episode that's how far removed she was.


He quite literally called her unsurpassed in combat 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> couldn't wrestle himself free from kid naruto's clone ffs.


Kabuot wasn’t taking Naruto seriously until Naruto already had him in his grip 

Solid grappling feat for Naruto frankly 

Also if you really wanna go there, Tsunade genuinely defeated Naruto with a singular finger 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> IF he sends a water dragon like he did vs Zabuza then kabuto can do fuck all


You mean besides dig under it?



Leaf Hurricane said:


> He can use precog to grab any of kabuto's jabs


By the hands?

Because now Kakashi’s hands are useless thanks to chakra scalpels and he looses feeling in them 

Net win for Kabuto 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And also Kabuto infiltrated enemy territory that time, so to say he was not expecting some resistance or an ambush is foolish.


Wait 

So why wouldn’t Kabuto be equally on guard when fighting Kakashi?




Leaf Hurricane said:


> He made more than that when he was out of chakra after figting zabuza on the bridge and you are saying this .
> Pathetic tbh.


Can you prove the power of those clones? As far as I’m concerned when made when he’s that fatigued I’d hazard a guess they were fodder, which is why they are propped up to be combatants for legit civilian level people 

Making a thousand civilian level clones doesn’t matter here 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Not that kabuto warrants any more than 2 . One to catch his ass and the other to raikiri . Just like Kid Naruto did.


Kabuto finesses the clone as he did Tsunade and touches Kakashi with a scalpel 

That’s a GG 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> You think sharingan won't see that unusual chakra build up near the arms and be wary ? You talk as if kakashi is an amateur . He is rusty only physically, not tactcially.
> If Kabuto is held in place by the ninken or the other clone, he isn't touching kakashi or himself.
> He's a sitting duck at that point.


Lee literally tells us the Raikiri is a straightforward attack that lunges at the target, leaving you vulnerable 

It is an extremely risky move as Lee states

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 31, 2022)

@Leaf Hurricane Kakashi's Intelligence score actually improves over DB1 and DB2 (in fact, it's lower than Kabuto's in DB1), so it's not impossible he was rusty mentally too.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Leaf Hurricane Kakashi's Intelligence score actually improves over DB1 and DB2 (in fact, it's lower than Kabuto's in DB1), so it's not impossible he was rusty mentally too.


Academic intelligence and battle / practical intelligence are 2 different things entirely.  
Kid Sakura has more intelligence points than Kid Sasuke. Almost twice . Who do you think is more smarter , more resourceful and more strategically intelligent in a fight ? 
Let me answer, not Sakura.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 31, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Kind of a sidetrack from this point but Honestly I fail to see how those children got in the way. Kakashi still gets out feinted either way as that had nothing to do with the kids at all, which means he still ends up in the water prison anyways.
> 
> Anyways in terms of the sharingan thing, Kakashi also uses it instantly against Zabuza even when it turns into a 1 v 1 with him
> 
> ...


No it's not.
Having people to save hampers your ability to fight focused.
Hence Lee lost to the sound nins. Even tenten mentions that.

He doesn't need to against Kabuto. Kabuto can't do any ninjutsu at range.

And no. Kakashi is pretty good with CQC without his sharingan too. I don't know from where or why you get that notion .





Symmetry said:


> He’d still use it or suffer the consequences


He doesn't need to until raikiri comes out.
Kabuto poses no threat that Kakashi needs the sharingan to track him .





Symmetry said:


> Regeneration hard counters
> 
> Taijutus outperforming the rasengan is unlikely, even if it is the lotus
> 
> For example the lord I did some damage to Gaara’s body, a rasengan would have killed him instantly


Try to read.
Even if he is regenerating , it is not instant. kakashi can kill him right there as he is still compromised positionally. As i mentioned.



Symmetry said:


> It’s also featless. Gaara was able to block even though his speed was way lower than Base Lee’s, Kabuto isn’t being bitzed by this


Kakashi is much faster than base lee.
Kabuto does not have wearable sand armor to dampen impact.

kabuto is absolutely getting tagged by it.



Symmetry said:


> And whilst he’s regenerating Kakashi is limp on the ground from strain. Kabuto eventually gets up after regenerating, Kakashi doesn’t
> 
> So it ends in a victory for Kabuto


It's not. 
Did you not read the manga ?
He had enough stamina to produce shadow clones after summoning , using sharingan and using raikiri .
You constantly keep low balling kakashi's stamina as if he falls over the moment he removes his blind.




Symmetry said:


> Seeing every move doesn’t mean you can keep up. By this logic genin Sasuke should smack Kisame in cqc as he can reads Kisame’s moves
> 
> In reality with the food pill amp Kabuto would have the clear advantage especially with oneshot scalpels



Christ. You are actually trying to imply the gap between kakashi and kabuto is as big as genin sasuke and kisame.

That's about it for me then .
This is a waste of time especially with arguments like this.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 31, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Academic intelligence and battle / practical intelligence are 2 different things entirely.
> Kid Sakura has more intelligence points than Kid Sasuke. Almost twice . Who do you think is more smarter , more resourceful and more strategically intelligent in a fight ?
> Let me answer, not Sakura.



Good thing Kabuto is good at all of those three things you mentioned too...? He did only outwit rusty Kakashi himself at the hospital, after all.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Good thing Kabuto is good at all of those three things you mentioned too...? He did only outwit rusty Kakashi himself at the hospital, after all.


Outwit in order to escape, with prep that is . I don't see why that would translate into battle. 
If he was smart enough to get the drop on kakashi through intelligence as you are suggesting, he would have more trust in himself and killed Kakashi instead of running away .
He only ran away after all .


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Outwit in order to escape, with prep that is . I don't see why that would translate into battle.
> If he was smart enough to get the drop on kakashi through intelligence as you are suggesting, he would have more trust in himself and killed Kakashi instead of running away .
> He only ran away after all .



You left out the fact Kakashi was the one who had said ANBU "prepped" to protect Sasuke, as well as tried to surprise Kabuto later on with stealth (which Kabuto effortlessly saw through). Kabuto used Kakashi's prep against him, simple as that. Why is it relevant to battle? Because it suggests Kabutops can outmanuever the Copy Ninja using the latter's own strategies against them.

Kabuto had no intention of killing Kakashi or any need to, why should he fight?


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## Hasan (Aug 1, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Christ. You are actually trying to imply the gap between kakashi and kabuto is as big as genin sasuke and kisame.
> 
> That's about it for me then .
> This is a waste of time especially with arguments like this.


He would know if he wasn't trying to write off Kakashi vs. Itachi... 

...Bro, He snipped this part:


Leaf Hurricane said:


> lol.... Sharingan man.
> That's the whole point of having sharingan and using raikiri . Kakashi can see him trying to touch and adjust accordingly.


From this part of your post:


Leaf Hurricane said:


> lol.... Sharingan man.
> That's the whole point of having sharingan and using raikiri . Kakashi can see him trying to touch and adjust accordingly.
> You think sharingan won't see that unusual chakra build up near the arms and be wary ? You talk as if kakashi is an amateur . He is rusty only physically, not tactcially.
> If Kabuto is held in place by the ninken or the other clone, he isn't touching kakashi or himself.
> He's a sitting duck at that point.


... and 'refuted' by bringing up Rock Lee's statement. He didn't even do that properly - and took it out of context. Lee was basically arguing what you just did. Nevermind the fact that this particular bit is amongst, if not _the_ most well-known trivia from the series. 

This was the point. When you have arguments like these, it's time to take a pause and ask the question: _"What's really going on!?". _The Itachi-example gave it away (in addition to other examples), but the Raikiri-one is pretty damning.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You left out the fact Kakashi was the one who had said ANBU "prepped" to protect Sasuke, as well as tried to surprise Kabuto later on with stealth (which Kabuto effortlessly saw through). Kabuto used Kakashi's prep against him, simple as that. Why is it relevant to battle? Because it suggests Kabutops can outmanuever the Copy Ninja using the latter's own strategies against them.


I'm still kinda baffled as to why you are considering those Anbu a "maneuver" or a "strategy" by Kakashi. Kakashi put a protection detail on Sasuke. That's... the extent of it. The Anbu are likely the strongest ninja that Kakashi is capable of commanding to do something like that. 

Kakashi was not prepping for Kabuto. It was not a plan. It was just the most basic form of protection that you could ask for and he would have assigned them to that room regardless of anything. It was a necessity. It's not really a strategy when it's your only option. Kabuto using the Anbu against Kakashi says something about Kabuto's abilities but it doesn't reflect on Kakashi's nearly as much as you make it seem.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I'm still kinda baffled as to why you are considering those Anbu a "maneuver" or a "strategy" by Kakashi. Kakashi put a protection detail on Sasuke. That's... the extent of it. The Anbu are likely the strongest ninja that Kakashi is capable of commanding to do something like that.
> 
> Kakashi was not prepping for Kabuto. It was not a plan. It was just the most basic form of protection that you could ask for and he would have assigned them to that room regardless of anything. It was a necessity. It's not really a strategy when it's your only option. Kabuto using the Anbu against Kakashi says something about Kabuto's abilities but it doesn't reflect on Kakashi's nearly as much as you make it seem.


 
Because Kabuto literally used Kakashi's own plans against him, so to apeak.

See above. On its own, it does not suggest Kabuto > Kakashi in combat intelligence, but if you look at the full picture...


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because Kabuto literally used Kakashi's own plans against him, so to apeak.
> 
> See above. On its own, it does not suggest Kabuto > Kakashi in combat intelligence, but if you look at the full picture...


It's... not a plan though? There was no planning involved. 

"Hey, protect this kid". Is not a strategy. Like I said, it was a necessity. Sasuke was in danger. The only move was to have_ someone_ protecting him. It didn't involve any countermeasures against a specific opponent. It was just a blanket protection order. It says absolutely nothing about Kakashi's intelligence or his ability to form strategies in combat. Those Anbu needed to be there regardless of anything else because Sasuke needed protection and those were the strongest ninja available to Kakashi. The only way that "plan" could "succeed" is if Kakashi had more powerful ninja at his command. But he didn't... and that's not a fault of his intelligence or strategic ability.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's... not a plan though? There was no planning involved.
> 
> "Hey, protect this kid". Is not a strategy. Like I said, it was a necessity. Sasuke was in danger. The only move was to have_ someone_ protecting him. It didn't involve any countermeasures against a specific opponent. It was just a blanket protection order. It says absolutely nothing about Kakashi's intelligence or his ability to form strategies in combat. Those Anbu needed to be there regardless of anything else because Sasuke needed protection and those were the strongest ninja available to Kakashi. The only way that "plan" could "succeed" is if Kakashi had more powerful ninja at his command. But he didn't... and that's not a fault of his intelligence or strategic ability.



It's implied Kakashi could have done better though; Kabuto even notes Kakashi should've prepared at least 10 if he really wanted to keep Sasuke safe (from Kabuto).

Kakashi was also in total awe over how Kabuto manipulated and disguised those bodies to trick him. Again, not conclusive proof Kabuto > Kakashi in combat intelligence, but definitely leans in that direction.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's implied Kakashi could have done better though; Kabuto even notes Kakashi should've prepared at least 10 if he really wanted to keep Sasuke safe (from Kabuto).
> 
> Kakashi was also in total awe over how Kabuto manipulated and disguised those bodies to trick him. Again, not conclusive proof Kabuto > Kakashi in combat intelligence, but definitely leans in that direction.


I don't think that was an implication so much as it was Kabuto gloating and being a smartass. Which is pretty much what Kakashi calls him.

That implication doesn't make sense anyway considering that Kakashi wouldn't have known that it was Kabuto that would show up. Which is why this wasn't a plan to counter Kabuto in the first place. If Kakashi knew who was going to show up, he might have_ actually_ prepped something himself, assuming he had any intel on them.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 1, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I don't think that was an implication so much as it was Kabuto gloating and being a smartass. Which is pretty much what Kakashi calls him.
> 
> That implication doesn't make sense anyway considering that Kakashi wouldn't have known that it was Kabuto that would show up. Which is why this wasn't a plan to counter Kabuto in the first place. If Kakashi knew who was going to show up, he might have_ actually_ prepped something himself, assuming he had any intel on them.



I don't think that was meant to be a mere boast though; Kabuto already dealt with those ANBU, I think he'd have a decent idea of how many more ANBU he could take. When did Kakashi call him that, btw (and why would it contradict Kabuto's words)? 

Perhaps, but the fact remains, Kabuto still duped Kakashi using Kakashi's own plans (and then some).


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Hasan said:


> He would know if he wasn't trying to write off Kakashi vs. Itachi...
> 
> ...Bro, He snipped this part:
> 
> ...


That is why I didn't respond to him after i saw him comparing genin sasuke and kismae to kakashi and kabuto.
There's a whole ass chapter dedicated to why having sharingan means no risk of using raikiri and the mofo says this .


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You left out the fact Kakashi was the one who had said ANBU "prepped" to protect Sasuke, as well as tried to surprise Kabuto later on with stealth


Did he know he was prepping hem for Kabuto ? or in general ?
It's Kabuto who did the prep knowing there were anbu .
If kakashi knew there was a dude called kabuto he would have prepped the anbu accordingly.

And kakashi didn't even try to kill him. If he did he would have sent a clone like he always does.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto used Kakashi's prep against him, simple as that. Why is it relevant to battle? Because it suggests Kabutops can outmanuever the Copy Ninja using the latter's own strategies against them.


What ?
Kakashi did no prep. He just kept some dudes to gurad a high value target. It's the most basic shit ever.
If Kakashi had arranged people who were anti Kabuto kit wise and kabuto still managed to kill them then your point would make some sense.
So no. It doesn't mean kabuto can outmaneuver kakashi using his own strats . There were no particular strats from kakashi.
The best kabuto managed was to dupe and run , not feint and fight or get the upper the hand like Kakashi usually does in his fights.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto had no intention of killing Kakashi or any need to, why should he fight?


Then stop saying he can feint kakashi into killing him in a real fight with his " strategies ".
He can't so he didn't in the manga and there is no proof suggesting that situation would have been lethal for kakashi if Kabuto stayed to fight.
It infact implies the opposite so it had kabuto run.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Having people to save hampers your ability to fight focused.


Fair enough

I’d ask what Kakashi would do differently though? In fact, Kakashi not being the main target of observation for Zabuza means it should be even easier for Kakashi to outfeint Zabuza, yet the opposite occurs



Leaf Hurricane said:


> He doesn't need to against Kabuto. Kabuto can't do any ninjutsu at range.


Where is it mentioned he only uses the sharingan for long range ?



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kakashi is pretty good with CQC without his sharingan too. I don't know from where or why you get that notion .


Never disagreed with this

But that doesn’t mean he’s good enough for Kabuto with chakra scalpels without it, those are two different things

I said Kabuto with scalpels > Kakashi without sharingan in cqc, and you twisted my words to mean Kakashi in general is bad in cqc without sharingan

Then you have the gall to insult me throughout your post after such a nefarious strawman? 




Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kabuto poses no threat that Kakashi needs the sharingan to track him .


Disagree heavily. The cqc threat of legit needing to _touch, _not hit, not strike, just _touch _Kakashi is absolutely a massive threat

Also you do not deserve to be as condescending as you were in this post when your argument as to why Kakashi doesn’t need the sharingan is because Kabuto poses no threat. There was no explanation as to _why _he poses no threat, never mind that going against the entire narrative of these two



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Try to read.


Take your own advice sometime



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Even if he is regenerating , it is not instant. kakashi can kill him right there as he is still compromised positionally. As i mentioned.


Kakashi _also _won’t be very mobile after an extended use of the lotus

Also, again, so long as Kabuto blocks, as I already stated, he won’t be completely on the ground or anything. Definitely injured for sure, but he can regenerate and _Kakashi _will also be injured from using the lotus. It’s a mutually injuring situation here where if Kabuto has regeneration and Kakashi doesn’t.

Unless Kakashi can outright kill Kabuto with the lotus (doubtful) Kakashi & Kabuto will both be injured by the exchange, but Kabuto will recover and Kakashi won’t







Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kakashi is much faster than base Lee


What the fuck is this nonesense?

I said that despite the difference in speed between Gaara & Lee Gaara could block, basically implying I don’t think the gap in speed is between lotus Kakashi and Kabuto is greater than the gap between Lotus Lee and Gaara

And SOMEHOW you twisted that into me saying Kakashi isn’t faster than Lee

And you genuinely had the stupidity to say something like “learn how to read” while doing shit like this openly

what the fuck?




Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kabuto does not have wearable sand armor to dampen impact.


Fair enough

Though I’d honestly peg a rasengan from Naruto as superior to a couple of taijutsu strikes from Kakashi with the lotus, meaning Kabuto should be fine (as in he won’t die and will regenerate in about 1 chapter of lying down) whilst Kakashi will also be hella fatigued

Also it’s entirely possible Kabuto slips away with a feint Gaara style if Kakashi strains himself to the same extent as Lee and closes his eyes in pain, which also is a possibility tbh

Also a possibility Kabuto eats like three kicks whilst going to touch Kakashi’s heart, eats those kicks and takes near lethal damage but regens eventually to limp away whilst Kakashi dies from the heart scalpel strike



Leaf Hurricane said:


> He had enough stamina to produce shadow clones after summoning , using sharingan and using raikiri


I never denied this, but can you tell me the power of those clones? If he’s making a bunch of fodder clones with abysmal chakra in them, which is kind of implied with the clones being propped up to take out 1 mercenary each, then it’s worthless



Leaf Hurricane said:


> You constantly keep low balling kakashi's stamina as if he falls over the moment he removes his blind.


I don’t k ow what you want from me because this just straight up happened in the manga, like don’t get mad at me just go read Kakashi’s first ever fight lmao

Sharingan, one water clone, one water correct and like a few minutes of chilling in a water dome

That gassed him entirely

You can’t deny that, it happened, get over it.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> You are actually trying to imply the gap between kakashi and kabuto is as big as genin sasuke and kisame.


No

No I am not

Stop strawmanning me

Where did I say the gap needed to be that large for my point to work?

All I did was show that sharingan doesn’t always neg cqc, not that it needs to be that large of a gap

Again, take your own advice, learn to read buddy



Leaf Hurricane said:


> That's about it for me then .
> This is a waste of time especially with arguments like this.


Concession accepted

Dude ducks over half my arguments by if Oro g then, steams as the other half, causes me of being illiterate, and then dips

Par for the course when it comes to this discussion tbh

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ayala (Aug 2, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's... not a plan though? There was no planning involved.
> 
> "Hey, protect this kid". Is not a strategy. Like I said, it was a necessity. Sasuke was in danger. The only move was to have_ someone_ protecting him. It didn't involve any countermeasures against a specific opponent. It was just a blanket protection order. It says absolutely nothing about Kakashi's intelligence or his ability to form strategies in combat. Those Anbu needed to be there regardless of anything else because Sasuke needed protection and those were the strongest ninja available to Kakashi. The only way that "plan" could "succeed" is if Kakashi had more powerful ninja at his command. But he didn't... and that's not a fault of his intelligence or strategic ability.



If Kakashi had really prepared something for Kabuto, an ambush or such, hospitalised Sasuke would be Kakashi, the Anbus would be Kakashi, and the moment Kabuto open the door to get inside he'd get his ass kicked in 2 seconds

Reactions: Agree 2 | Creative 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Also love the obsessions certain posters who shall not be named have with the idea of attacking me and my arguments by responding to other posters responding to me, so that they can simultaneously try and refute my arguments without responding to me specifically so they can duck the need to engage with me directly 

It’s a quick way to throw in pot shots whilst remaining safe from being responded to, which is, as is so painfully prevalent with these types, annoying and painfully obvious

Especially odd if one claims to be leaving the discussion because they want nothing to do with me, yet then remain in the thread to shit talk me and also argue against my points, just through using other posters by responding to them whilst mentioning me

The lack of class here is astonishingly low

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## maximon (Aug 2, 2022)

This is still going? Kabuto hasn't high diff Kakashi with a 50 50 odd yet?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> The lack of class here is astonishingly low


The fucking irony here .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> The fucking irony here .


Good lord what is with people with claiming they’re leaving only to keep coming back 

Stick with it at least

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Good lord what is with people with claiming they’re leaving only to keep coming back
> 
> Stick with it at least


No one ever said they are leaving the entire thread . 

Wait, reading isn't your strong suit.

My bad.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> No one ever said they are leaving the entire thread .
> 
> Wait, reading isn't your strong suit.
> 
> My bad.


> Calls debating a waste of time 

> has time to come back for multiple insults

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> has time to come back for multiple insults


Lmao... how telling.

Insulting =/= debating

You'd be aware if you actually knew what debating was and not mistake it for insulting.
But who the fuck are we kidding here.


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> You'd be aware if you actually knew what debating was


Pretty fucking ironic from somehow churned our shit arguments constantly and then ran

My dude, spin it how you want, I couldn’t care less, everyone can read the exchange. You ducked and shat all over the place to cover your tracks right before you did so, and the only reason you’re still here is to shit some more


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Did he know he was prepping hem for Kabuto ? or in general ?
> It's Kabuto who did the prep knowing there were anbu .
> If kakashi knew there was a dude called kabuto he would have prepped the anbu accordingly.
> 
> ...



My response to Semiotic covered all of this. Also, you left out the fact Kakashi tried to sneak up on Kabuto and Kabuto easily saw through it - another Kakashi strat (and this time one ACTUALLY involving him directly) and it failed. Oof.

And no, I won't. Nothing implies the opposite when we have two statements saying you're wrong and Kabuto already told us why he doesn't want to fight the Sharingan.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Pretty fucking ironic from somehow


Lmao..
Ironic ???
The actual irony.




Symmetry said:


> churned our shit arguments constantly and then ran


Lmao.. legit says Raikiri with sharingan leaves you open for an attack and talks about shit arguments ??





Symmetry said:


> My dude, spin it how you want, I couldn’t care less, everyone can read the exchange. You ducked and shat all over the place to cover your tracks right before you did so,


Ducked and shat ?? Cover my tracks ??  My My...
You actually think this and you are that important ??



Sit down.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

It's getting a little heated in here  

@Six Paths Scaling Late post, man, but I think you should consider making a new poll option that compares DB2 period Kabuto to non-rusty Kakashi.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Genin sasuke should have slapped Kisame because of sharingan ....



This is not so surprising when P1 Sasuke has better reflexes than the Raikage according to Maru


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> My response to Semiotic covered all of this. Also, you left out the fact Kakashi tried to sneak up on Kabuto and Kabuto easily saw through it - another Kakashi strat (and this time one ACTUALLY involving him directly) and it failed. Oof.


And Kabuto threw a knife at him him while covering his arms and Kakashi caught the knife.

That's a fail right there .




Aegon Targaryen said:


> And no, I won't.


okay I guess.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is not so surprising when P1 Sasuke has better reflexes than the Raikage according to Maru


We are all Maru .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Lmao.. legit says Raikiri with sharingan leaves you open for an attack and talks about shit arguments ?


Oh my, are we bringing up points to debate


After you already tried to duck?

Make up your mind man seriously 



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Sit down clown.


I’ve been sitting this whole time 

And kicking your ass whilst sitting at that



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Genin sasuke should have slapped Kisame because of sharingan ....


Still using straw man’s as if they aren’t blatantly obvious 



Stupid and dishonest


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> And Kabuto threw a knife at him him while covering his arms and Kakashi caught the knife.
> 
> That's a fail right there .
> 
> ...



Never said otherwise, but that's not a failure of intelligence, that's a failure of stats. 

Intelligence-wise, Kabuto had the upper hand at any and all times.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Intelligence-wise, Kabuto had the upper hand at any and all times.


But he didn't. 
Kakashi not getting the drop on kabuto in stealth has nothing to do with intelligence though.
Kabuto just ran at all times . 
How is that a victory in intelligence ?

And like already pointed out, Kakashi did not prep for Kabuto for this to be a failure of strategy or intellect. He didn't even know it was going to be Kabuto.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> But he didn't.
> Kakashi not getting the drop on kabuto in stealth has nothing to do with intelligence though.
> Kabuto just ran at all times .
> How is that a victory in intelligence ?
> ...



It has everything to do with intelligence as stealth here is a function of intelligence, nothing else. Kabuto running at all times is intelligent (and I'm only half-joking when I say that), why should he fight Kakashi when he doesn't want his jutsu copied? In addition, why should he risk other Konoha ninja finding out and joining in? 

The stealth part was pure intellect and Kakashi at this point knew Kabuto could destroy his ANBU, so Kakashi no longer has that excuse. Yet Kabuto still feinted him and escaped again


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Oh my, are we bringing up points to debate
> 
> 
> After you already tried to duck?
> ...


Points ??
You had points ???
That's what you thought they were ??







Symmetry said:


> I’ve been sitting this whole time


Congratulations . 
Now take off the clown make up . 









Symmetry said:


> Still using straw man’s as if they aren’t blatantly obvious
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid and dishonest


You made it not me .


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Congratulations .
> Now help me take off my clown make up .


Of course, I’d be happy to assist




Leaf Hurricane said:


> You made it not me .


Nope, didn’t make it at all

Another blatant ass lie, because what’s one more for you I guess?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It has everything to do with intelligence as stealth here is a function of intelligence, nothing else. Kabuto running at all times is intelligent (and I'm only half-joking when I say that), why should he fight Kakashi when he doesn't want his jutsu copied? In addition, why should he risk other Konoha ninja finding out and joining in?


So that means Kabuto does not get any points for choosing to run away .

And stealth is not intelligence. It's more of a physical feat of how silent you can be .
Kakashi didn't even know who he was going against.
If he did and he still failed then you would be making some what of an argument .
Kakashi did not prep for Kabuto .



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The stealth part was pure intellect and Kakashi at this point knew Kabuto could destroy his ANBU, so Kakashi no longer has that excuse. Yet Kabuto still feinted him and escaped again


But Kakashi did not know it was Kabuto . He didn't even know who was Kabuto .

He just kept the most generic security at his disposal .
if he knew a dude called Kabuto, a medic was about to show up and he still did the same shit then it'd be an L in terms of strategy and intelligence. But that's not what happened.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Of course, I’d be happy to assist


No no.. keep it to yourself.
You are doing a fine job at being a clown .




Symmetry said:


> Nope, didn’t make it at all
> 
> Another blatant ass lie, because what’s one more for you I guess?


Lmao.. says weird shit and then says i didn't say it. On a forum that logs it.

How low can you go now ?

Anyways, I'm out.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> So that means Kabuto does not get any points for choosing to run away .
> 
> And stealth is not intelligence. It's more of a physical feat of how silent you can be .
> Kakashi didn't even know who he was going against.
> ...



Nope, stealth is an intelligence feat, not a physical feat. Being super-silent here is a matter of skill, of discipline, of intelligence.

Still not addressing the fact Kakashi found out how strong Kabuto was, yet even with said knowledge and said stealth, got found out near immediately and failed to stop him.


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## Symmetry (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Oh thanks! I wish I had the capabilities to take off my clown makeup but it’s just so complicated! Glad to have your assistance





Leaf Hurricane said:


> Lmao.. says weird shit and then says i didn't say it. On a forum that logs it.


Holy fuck


Symmetry said:


> Where did I say the gap needed to be that large for my point to work?
> 
> All I did was show that sharingan doesn’t always neg cqc, not that it needs to be that large of a gap


Genuinely didn’t and already addressed this

Stop

It’s embarrassing for you, seriously.


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Anyways, I'm out.


good riddance


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Still not addressing the fact Kakashi found out how strong Kabuto was, yet even with said knowledge and said stealth, got found out near immediately and failed to stop him.


Because that doesn't even matter .
 
Kakashi did not know who kabuto was. he had no knowledge of his kit. His only knowledge was that someone took out the guards he kept. To him it could have been anyone. Your point stands if Kakashi had prior knowledge of Kabuto there. 


And most importantly Kakashi not being able to pursue and stop a dude he knew nothing about and Kabuto running away from Kakashi has nothing to do in a fight because all of those are non factors in a vs fight . Kabuto cannot run and Kakashi doesn't need to chase him here.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Because that doesn't even matter .
> 
> Kakashi did not know who kabuto was. he had no knowledge of his kit. His only knowledge was that someone took out the guards he kept. To him it could have been anyone. Your point stands if Kakashi had prior knowledge of Kabuto there.
> 
> ...



Knowledge is an advantage, it's not something you normally have or should have. So, I believe we can dismiss that one.

Both are factors in a fight (though Kabuto running from Kakashi is less so IMO) and Kabuto can force Kakashi to chase him here too


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Both are factors in a fight (though Kabuto running from Kakashi is less so IMO) and Kabuto can force Kakashi to chase him here too


It's useless for him to make Kakashi chase if it doesn't give him the win.  
The win criteria is not dupe Kakashi and run but to beat him in a fight, which kabuto actively avoided .

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 2, 2022)

Ayala said:


> If Kakashi had really prepared something for Kabuto, an ambush or such, hospitalised Sasuke would be Kakashi, the Anbus would be Kakashi, and the moment Kabuto open the door to get inside he'd get his ass kicked in 2 seconds

Reactions: Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> It's useless for him to make Kakashi chase if it doesn't give him the win.
> The win criteria is not dupe Kakashi and run but to beat him in a fight, which kabuto actively avoided .



But duping Kakashi WILL help beat him in a fight, as will the ability to run

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But duping Kakashi WILL help beat him in a fight, as will the ability to run


Not if Kakashi doesn't chase. He doesn't have to here .
At that point it's just kabuto running away for nothing .




And I don't think kabuto has access to Anbu dead guys to set up a similar dupe here.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Not if Kakashi doesn't chase. He doesn't have to here .
> At that point it's just kabuto running away for nothing .
> 
> 
> ...



But if he does have to chase, Kakashi does have to chase 

Not really, Kakashi needs to hit Kabuto to damage him  

 

Kabuto literally collects corpses in a scroll (you can argue this is a PII only thing, I suppose). Not that he needs it


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Kakashi won that exchange.

He stopped Kabuto from doing whatever Kabuto wanted to do and that was with prep disadvantage.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Kakashi won that exchange.
> 
> He stopped Kabuto from doing whatever Kabuto wanted to do and that was with prep disadvantage.



Nope, he lost. 

The prep disadvantage part ignores the fact Kabuto just used Kakashi's own support against him AND negged Kakashi's stealth.


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope, he lost.
> 
> The prep disadvantage part ignores the fact Kabuto just used Kakashi's own support against him AND negged Kakashi's stealth.


That's like saying Shikamaru didn't have prep against Hidan because he used Hidan's partner against him.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> That's like saying Shikamaru didn't have prep against Hidan because he used Hidan's partner against him.



Good thing I never said Kabuto didn't have prep against Kakashi


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But if he does have to chase, Kakashi does have to chase


No.
if kabuto runs from a 1 v1 , he loses.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not really, Kakashi needs to hit Kabuto to damage him


As if kabuto doesn't now ???


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Good thing I never said Kabuto didn't have prep against Kakashi


I mean you tried to devalue the prep advantage by mentioning that Kabuto had to get through few fodders first, although the latter has nothing to do with Kakashi.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> No.
> if kabuto runs from a 1 v1 , he loses.
> 
> 
> ...



1) He's not running "from" a 1v1, lmao. He just has to keep his distance and force Kakashi to get close so he can launch a devastating counterattack.

2) Kabuto does, but Kabuto is the one that can take a would-be fatal or serious hit, live to tell the tale, and kill the enemy in return.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> I mean you tried to devalue the prep advantage by mentioning that Kabuto had to get through few fodders first, although the latter has nothing to do with Kakashi.



Saying Kakashi had his own advantages doesn't erase Kabuto having one, it just balances that out. That's not remotely the same as saying he didn't have a prep advantage though  

The latter absolutely has to do with Kakashi, as he's the one who selected them for the job and yet they ended up being used to dupe him


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Saying Kakashi had his own advantages doesn't erase Kabuto having one, it just balances that out. That's not remotely the same as saying he didn't have a prep advantage though
> 
> The latter absolutely has to do with Kakashi, as he's the one who selected them for the job and yet they ended up being used to dupe him


Then I can argue Kabuto has a second, and even a bigger advantage of having a hostage in Sasuke there.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Then I can argue Kabuto has a second, and even a bigger advantage of having a hostage in Sasuke there.



That's a fair point, actually, but I can argue right back Kakashi has a third and still bigger advantage of being on home ground, whereas Kabuto would be surrounded by hostiles (a hospital that takes care of ninja isn't exactly a secret place) and simply not in a good position to pick a fight


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's a fair point, but I can argue right back Kakashi has a third and still bigger advantage of being on home ground, whereas Kabuto would be surrounded by hostiles and simply not in a good position to pick a fight


Good observation by you there, but I can go right back at you with an argument that Kakashi, being on his home ground, is restricted from going all out and destroying environment or endangering civilians, while Kabuto doesn't have to care about anything else other than his mission.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Good observation by you there, but I can go right back at you with an argument that Kakashi, being on his home ground, is restricted from going all out and destroying environment or endangering civilians, while Kabuto doesn't have to care about anything else other than his mission.



Interesting observation, and it would mean something if Kakashi actually was some 
super-destructive fighter like Deidara or an Akimeichi clan member, or if Kabuto also wouldn't risk blowing his cover even further by unnecessarily damaging the environment or risking other people's lives


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## Ayala (Aug 3, 2022)

Just like Kakashi won the hospital exchange, t0x just won this threads exchange

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's not running "from" a 1v1, lmao. He just has to keep his distance and force Kakashi to get close so he can launch a devastating counterattack.


Why would Kakashi chase him though ?

kabuto has to approach kakashi as much as the opposite for any chance of victory .

And launch a devastating counter attack against a guy who has precog ?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto does, but Kabuto is the one that can take a would-be fatal or serious hit, live to tell the tale, and kill the enemy in return.


No.
He got caught and couldn't free himself from a fatigued genin naruto. And he only lived to tell the tale because Naruto legit collapsed right after that .
If he gets caught vs kakashi , which he likely will because he can't run from the ninken forever and can't fight all of them at once , he's pretty much fucked.


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Interesting observation, and it would mean something if Kakashi actually was some
> super-destructive fighter like Deidara or an Akimeichi clan member, or if Kabuto also wouldn't risk blowing his cover even further by unnecessarily damaging the environment or risking other people's lives


Clever thought from you there sir, but I'd like to counter it with an opposing argument that goes like this - Kakashi fulfilled his objective there which was to protect Sasuke, while Kabuto failed to kill/kidnap Sasuke and as such Kakashi is the only one who fulfilled his win condition.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Kage 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Why would Kakashi chase him though ?
> 
> kabuto has to approach kakashi as much as the opposite for any chance of victory .
> 
> ...



Because Kakashi needs to tag Kabuto, duh. To be fair, Kabuto doesn't need to run, he can just let Kakashi close in on him and then go for the counterattack...

Well, yes. I explained it to you already; Kabuto can merely shift his body so Raikiri misses the heart and then chakra scalpel Kakashi before using his regeneration while Kakashi's Raikiri arm is trapped. The Sharingan won't save him here, any more than it saved Sasuke from A4's Liger Bomb. 

True. I'm not saying Kabuto is supposed to beat Kakashi in traditional CQC. Already discussed the ninken. Kabuto can easily get them off his trail by scattering his blood underground. Kakashi also only used ninken a grand total of once in combat, and if we're gonna go that way, I'll point out Kabuto can likely use his sealed corpses as minions to counter them.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 3, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Clever thought from you there sir, but I'd like to counter it with an opposing argument that goes like this - Kakashi fulfilled his objective there which was to protect Sasuke, while Kabuto failed to kill/kidnap Sasuke and as such Kakashi is the only one who fulfilled his win condition.



Very astute judgment, but while Kakashi indeed protected Sasuke, I could argue Kabuto also didn't really intend to kill/kidnap Sasuke and may not have done so even if he killed Kakashi (his actual emotions and plan are unclear). So, if Kakashi "won" at all, he "won" with more advantages than disadvantages, including those mentioned before.

He feared Orochimaru more than he did Kakashi, don't forget that. Also, at the end of the day, it was Kakashi that (arguably) felt inferior to Kabuto, not Kabuto that felt inferior


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## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Very astute judgment, but while Kakashi indeed protected Sasuke, I could argue Kabuto also didn't really intend to kill/kidnap Sasuke and may not have done so even if he killed Kakashi (his actual emotions and plan are unclear).
> 
> He feared Orochimaru more than he did Kakashi, don't forget that. Also, at the end of the day, it was Kakashi that (arguably) felt inferior to Kabuto, not Kabuto that felt inferior


Persuasive reasoning, however I believe that Kabuto being forced to take complex approach in his escape without having done anything at all to his target before leaving while Kakashi achieves stopping him can only be taken as Kakashi's W, also consider the fact we're outright told two options Kabuto is deciding between at the beginning of chapter - either side with Oro's ambition and kidnap Sasuke, or try to stop Oro and kill Sasuke - he achieves neither and is forced to run.

He was fearful of Kabuto's talent (which he mentions specifically), i.e. if he just sits on his butt then Oro's underlings will make Kakashi obsolete.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because Kakashi needs to tag Kabuto, duh. To be fair, Kabuto doesn't need to run, he can just let Kakashi close in on him and then go for the counterattack...


Lol Wut ?

And kabuto doesn't need to tag kakashi here ?

Yeah.. And Superb idea against a superior cqc user with a sharingan.
Let him get close and the ol gotcha bitch .

What if kakashi decides to wait, let Kabuto make his move , grab him like naruto and blow a hole through him ? 
Kabuto is screwed if he gets pinned in place. Even by a kid as shown in the manga  .  He is eating that juicy hit. 




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Well, yes. I explained it to you already; Kabuto can merely shift his body so Raikiri misses the heart and then chakra scalpel Kakashi before using his regeneration while Kakashi's Raikiri arm is trapped. The Sharingan won't save him here, any more than it saved Sasuke from A4's Liger Bomb.


And Kakashi is just going to let him merely shift his body and not adjust ? Especially with a sharingan ? 
Merely shifting still means kakashi takes atleast 50 percent of his heart. He's dead dawg . He has to shift atleast  6 inches either side to avoid a heart shot and atleast 2 feet to avoid a lung shot. Both are dangerous and will put his ass down for good .
he survived Rasengan because of Naruto's slow ass build up anf him being a kid , and it being blunt force and not piercing damage enhanced by raiton. 

And You saying Kabuto will regenerate from a death blow, and launch a counter attack before kakashi can pull out his arm ????
These hypothetical scenarios get more dumber by the minute.

 

A4 is more than strong enough to dictate any physical encounter with sasuke.
Kabuto wasn't strong enough to wrench himself free from a fatigued kid naruto who had his chakra split in half .
To even suggest that kakashi will have trouble out muscling him is some sannin band level stretch .




Aegon Targaryen said:


> True. I'm not saying Kabuto is supposed to beat Kakashi in traditional CQC. Already discussed the ninken. Kabuto can easily get them off his trail by scattering his blood underground. Kakashi also only used ninken a grand total of once in combat, and if we're gonna go that way, I'll point out Kabuto can likely use his sealed corpses as minions to counter them.


Ninken aren't retarded . They can just lock onto his body odour instead of his blood. It is a distinguishable thing. 
And they don't need blood to track him when they can see his ass skedaddling across the field and hear him do that .
They needed blood against Zabuza because of the mist impairing their vision and Zabuza being so silent . Kabuto doesn't have that luxury.

And why does Kabuto get corpses here ?
Location is Gaara vs Kimimaro. Not some mortuary that kabuto can capitalize on before the fight begins.

And even if I humor you with that, as he is using his corpses to deal with the dogs he has an elite jounin tier fighter who has a free shot at his distracted ass. It's a lose lose once the ninken come out.

But that's irrelevant because he doesn't get any corpses to puppet around here .

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> it was Kakashi that (arguably) felt inferior to Kabuto, not Kabuto that felt inferior


That's a stretch man. Kakashi felt inferior to his pre rusty fit self, not kabuto .

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 3, 2022)

@Aegon Targaryen This whole "he can shift his body" thing has got to stop man.

Even if you believe that Kabuto is "on par" with Kakashi in terms of speed, he is not fast enough to completely shift his heart out of the way of a Raikiri. He's not _faster_ than Kakashi, let alone fast enough to pull that off. Comparing him to A4 is *insane*. The sharingan would absolutely counter that tactic even if he was fast enough to try it. It predicts where his opponent _will be_ and that's what allows Kakashi to use the Raikiri at high speeds without fear of a counterattack. And that's not even considering an attack from behind or an attack while Kabuto is being held in place by dogs or a clone which are 110% strong enough to do so when we have a child performing that exact feat against Kabuto.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2022)

I back Kabuto

I also dont see any difference between "rusty" Kakashi and "end of part 1 kakashi"

Nothing quantifiable anyway 

Dude has no feats of improvement until BoS


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> That's a stretch man. Kakashi felt inferior to his pre rusty fit self, not kabuto .



Both.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> @Aegon Targaryen This whole "he can shift his body" thing has got to stop man.
> 
> Even if you believe that Kabuto is "on par" with Kakashi in terms of speed, he is not fast enough to completely shift his heart out of the way of a Raikiri. He's not _faster_ than Kakashi, let alone fast enough to pull that off. Comparing him to A4 is *insane*. The sharingan would absolutely counter that tactic even if he was fast enough to try it. It predicts where his opponent _will be_ and that's what allows Kakashi to use the Raikiri at high speeds without fear of a counterattack. And that's not even considering an attack from behind or an attack while Kabuto is being held in place by dogs or a clone which are 110% strong enough to do so when we have a child performing that exact feat against Kabuto.



He is relative to Kakashi in speed, so, yes, diverting a hit to the heart is absolutely possible and realistic. Comparing him to A4 isn't insane when HAKU was able obstruct Kakashi's arm long enough for Zabuza to slash and draw blood from the guy, and the Sharingan didn't save him from taking injury there. Raikiri has been counterattacked, guarded, or dodged multiple times in this series so it's pretty clear the argument it *has* to work "because Sharingan" doesn't fly at all.

How are dogs even tagging Kabuto in the first place? They tagged Zabuza because he was, as Kakashi himself said, blind. Kakashi doesn't have Kirigakure no Jutsu and Kabuto can throw the dogs off his scent as earlier stated. A clone is too slow to tag him too when he's relative in speed to the original.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Lol Wut ?
> 
> And kabuto doesn't need to tag kakashi here ?



He does, but Kakashi doesn't know about his regeneration abilities, and nothing less than Raikiri even comes close to working.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Yeah.. And Superb idea against a superior cqc user with a sharingan.
> Let him get close and the ol gotcha bitch]



Works perfectly well, actually. Having Sharingan won't stop Kakashi from getting his hand stuck through Kabuto (certainly didn't when it came to Haku twice) or Kabuto surviving with his regeneration.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> What if kakashi decides to wait, let Kabuto make his move , grab him like naruto and blow a hole through him ?



Kabuto won't do that, he's smart enough to not underestimate the Sharingan and knows he's not very good at CQC (unlike Kakashi, who is known for being quite good at it). Didn't realize Kabuto equated Kakashi to some random scrub Genin he saw struggle against Kiba now either.

Also didn't realize Kakashi got to see Kabuto's fighting style or capabilities against Shizune and Tsunade like Naruto did  



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kabuto is screwed if he gets pinned in place. Even by a kid as shown in the manga  .  He is eating that juicy hit



A big if, and it won't happen.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And Kakashi is just going to let him merely shift his body and not adjust ? Especially with a sharingan ?



Well, it's not Kakashi's choice. Didn't realize Sharingan magically lets Kakashi predict and see everything happen in front of him either  



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Merely shifting still means kakashi takes atleast 50 percent of his heart. He's dead dawg . He has to shift atleast  6 inches either side to avoid a heart shot and atleast 2 feet to avoid a lung shot. Both are dangerous and will put his ass down for good



Wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto could regenerate a lung with his regeneration tbh, it seems comparable or even superior to KN0 Naruto's (Naruto survived Chidori and Kabuto survived Rasengan which > Chidori). So that's an acceptable risk.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> he survived Rasengan because of Naruto's slow ass build up anf him being a kid , and it being blunt force and not piercing damage enhanced by raiton



A lot of nonsense here. Kakashi's Raikiri doesn't have much bigger DC than Naruto's Rasengan does (it's stronger, but not necessarily much more destructive), and Rasengan being blunt force is a trash comment given that it even surpassed Chidori in penetrative force to a degree.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And You saying Kabuto will regenerate from a death blow, and launch a counter attack before kakashi can pull out his arm ????



It won't be a death blow in the first place, and to the rest of a of that...yes  



Leaf Hurricane said:


> A4 is more than strong enough to dictate any physical encounter with sasuke



What about Haku and Kakashi?  

Same scenario there, btw.




Leaf Hurricane said:


> Kabuto wasn't strong enough to wrench himself free from a fatigued kid naruto who had his chakra split in half



More lies about the "fatigued" kid  



Leaf Hurricane said:


> To even suggest that kakashi will have trouble out muscling him is some sannin band level stretch



He had enough trouble muscling his arm out of Haku (another kid) and even lost blood to Zabuza in the process. Unlike last time, Kakashi won't even be on-guard for Kabuto's counterattack.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Ninken aren't retarded . They can just lock onto his body odour instead of his blood. It is a distinguishable thing.
> And they don't need blood to track him when they can see his ass skedaddling across the field and hear him do that .
> They needed blood against Zabuza because of the mist impairing their vision and Zabuza being so silent . Kabuto doesn't have that luxury



How does mist or silence get rid of body odor? Every time, the ninken needed a source of scent to reliably track their targets - Kakashi needed Zabuza's blood against Zabuza, and Team 7 used Sasuke's clothes to track Sasuke in the Itachi Pursuit Mission arc. In fact, Karin was easily able to dupe the ninken and throw them off Sasuke's trail by using the latter's sweaty clothes. Clearly the ninken's sense of smell can be thrown off easily.

Kabuto also LITERALLY is a *master in doing things like erasing body odor*, so the argument ninken will even help against him is laughable. That's also something Kakashi hyped him up for.





Leaf Hurricane said:


> And why does Kabuto get corpses here ?
> Location is Gaara vs Kimimaro. Not some mortuary that kabuto can capitalize on before the fight begins.
> 
> And even if I humor you with that, as he is using his corpses to deal with the dogs he has an elite jounin tier fighter who has a free shot at his distracted ass. It's a lose lose once the ninken come out.
> ...



You already conceded the main point in another thread. As to Kabuto being "distracted", what makes you think Kakashi won't be distracted when HE summons his ninken?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Persuasive reasoning, however I believe that Kabuto being forced to take complex approach in his escape without having done anything at all to his target before leaving while Kakashi achieves stopping him can only be taken as Kakashi's W, also consider the fact we're outright told two options Kabuto is deciding between at the beginning of chapter - either side with Oro's ambition and kidnap Sasuke, or try to stop Oro and kill Sasuke - he achieves neither and is forced to run



Nice try, but nothing you said changes anything I said previously, including the strong possibility that a fight with Kakashi can evolve into a fight with Kakashi and other Konoha ninja, which is very risky.



t0xeus said:


> He was fearful of Kabuto's talent (which he mentions specifically), i.e. if he just sits on his butt then Oro's underlings will make Kakashi obsolete.



Yes, concession accepted Kakashi indeed feared Kabuto. The "underlings" part is false, though - Kakashi only feared one underling in particular, and that was Kabuto. You are correct about the "he sits on his butt part", but Kabuto also improves later on in P1, as DB2 proves.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 5, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He is relative to Kakashi in speed, so, yes, diverting a hit to the heart is absolutely possible and realistic. Comparing him to A4 isn't insane when HAKU was able obstruct Kakashi's arm long enough for Zabuza to slash and draw blood from the guy, and the Sharingan didn't save him from taking injury there. Raikiri has been counterattacked, guarded, or dodged multiple times in this series so it's pretty clear the argument it *has* to work "because Sharingan" doesn't fly at all.
> 
> How are dogs even tagging Kabuto in the first place? They tagged Zabuza because he was, as Kakashi himself said, blind. Kakashi doesn't have Kirigakure no Jutsu and Kabuto can throw the dogs off his scent as earlier stated. A clone is too slow to tag him too when he's relative in speed to the original.


What does that Haku situation have to do with Kabuto's speed being compared to A4? Kakashi being weighted down by a body means that Haku can move his heart out of the way of a raikiri? What? Kabuto isn't even remotely as fast as A4. He's not as fast as Kakashi. He's a full point behind Kakashi in the second databook. Having two characters state that Kabuto is "on Kakashi's level" does not mean that he is capable of beating Kakashi but it _sure as fuck_ does not mean that their physicals are equalized. 

He can throw off the dogs scent but the dogs still have eyes. The same reason that Zabuza was blind is the same reason that the dogs even needed to use a scent to tag him. Kabuto isn't using mist either so why would they need to rely on smell? A twelve year old Naruto was able to hold Kabuto in place and you think a clone of Kakashi would not be able to replicate that feat? Seriously? So not only is Kabuto "relative to Kakashi" in speed, but now he's so fast that Kakashi couldn't even grab him? That's just absurd dude.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> What does that Haku situation have to do with Kabuto's speed being compared to A4?



I didn't compare Kabuto's speed to A4's. I merely pointed out that Chidori users can be intercepted/dodged/blocked/surprised even with the Sharingan active. 

In fact, Kakuzu does it too, and you can't even blame that one on Hidden Mist. 





And Asura Path does it too...  



No, Kabuto isn't as fast as PA Kakashi, Kakuzu, or Asura, but neither is P1 Kakashi, and Kabuto merely needs to divert the attack somewhat, not cross several meters to dodge. His job is a lot easier.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi being weighted down by a body means that Haku can move his heart out of the way of a raikiri? What?



You missed my point. My point was that due to Kakashi getting his arm stuck in Haku, he was unable to fully evade Zabuza's slice and ended up being cut.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kabuto isn't even remotely as fast as A4



And Kakashi isn't even remotely as fast as Hebi Sasuke (let alone FKS Sasuke), so...your point? 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He's not as fast as Kakashi. He's a full point behind Kakashi in the second databook



Databooks don't account for chakra enhancements like Shunshin. For comparison, Hebi Sasuke and Deidara have the same speed stat, yet even Base Hebi Sasuke is "too fast" for Deidara to stay on the ground against.

Tsunade was lower than Shizune in speed even in DB3, yet literally blitzed and was FTE to Shizune while being rusty.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Having two characters state that Kabuto is "on Kakashi's level" does not mean that he is capable of beating Kakashi but it _sure as fuck_ does not mean that their physicals are equalized



True, technically. 

His feats, however, do mean just that.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> He can throw off the dogs scent but the dogs still have eyes. The same reason that Zabuza was blind is the same reason that the dogs even needed to use a scent to tag him. Kabuto isn't using mist either so why would they need to rely on smell?



You need to prove the dogs can tag him in the first place. They tagged Zabuza because he was blind and had no super-developed senses whereas their sense of smell was still functioning perfectly.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> A twelve year old Naruto was able to hold Kabuto in place and you think a clone of Kakashi would not be able to replicate that feat?Seriously? So not only is Kabuto "relative to Kakashi" in speed, but now he's so fast that Kakashi couldn't even grab him? That's just absurd dude.



Naruto LET Kabuto attack him, so he could trap Kabuto and Rasengan him. My point is that Kabuto can use that exact same strategy, the one used against himself, to take Kakashi down in this fight.

Kabuto won't rashly attack Kakashi like he did Naruto and I'm not even saying he has to actually engage Kakashi in direct CQC, simply soak a hit and hit back while trapping Kakashi's arm (and preventing the guy from engaging in further CQC).


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

People are really buying into this fanciful notion that having a Sharingan means you can predict anything and everything you opponent does and react accordingly, even though the Lee vs Sasuke fight should have disproven it long ago and other fights like Kakuzu Vs Kakashi prove Raikiri can still be intercepted or countered without the user being able to react or stop themselves in time, let alone partially evaded. Sharingan just makes the jutsu usable, it doesn't guarantee that the jutsu works.

Also, IMO...

Earlier P1 Kabuto = Rusty P1 Kakashi 
Later P1 Kabuto = In-Shape P1 Kakashi

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 5, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I didn't compare Kabuto's speed to A4's. I merely pointed out that Chidori users can be intercepted/dodged/blocked/surprised even with the Sharingan active.
> 
> In fact, Kakuzu does it too, and you can't even blame that one on Hidden Mist.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about his encounter with Haku and Zabuza in P2 because Kakashi was able to avoid Zabuza's attack on the bridge despite having the full weight of another person weighing him down. If anything, that's a strength and speed feat in Kakashi's favor here.

Comparing someone as fast as A4 to Kabuto is pointless, is my point. A4 being able to avoid a chidori says absolutely nothing about Kabuto's ability to avoid a raikiri. You can say that Kakashi isn't as fast as Hebi Sasuke but whatever gulf there is between Hebi Sasuke and P1 Kakashi is even wider between A4 and P1 Kabuto.

I don't see any feats from P1 Kabuto that put him above P1 Kakashi in speed. Certainly nothing that makes it possible for him to completely avoid Kakashi's attacks in CQC.

Maybe the dogs could tag Kabuto by themselves, maybe they couldn't. We don't have enough info to say for sure. But they certainly wouldn't make Kabuto's life any easier with Kakashi also pressuring him at the same time.

So Kabuto got duped by a 12 year old but he's going to outwit Kakashi? Not only that, but he's going to outwit Kakashi using a tactic that he failed to see through himself? Why is Kakashi going to be the rash one here? Kabuto is one of the most overconfident characters in the manga and yet Kakashi is just going to blindly rush him with a raikiri and let himself get stuck, assuming Kabuto survives? That's completely out of character.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Are you talking about his encounter with Haku and Zabuza in P2 because Kakashi was able to avoid Zabuza's attack on the bridge despite having the full weight of another person weighing him down



But not in P2. In fact, Kakashi stated the reason he avoided the attack on the bridge is because Zabuza *hesitated*.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If anything, that's a strength and speed feat in Kakashi's favor here



No, it isn't - not when Zabuza simply failed to follow through and cut both Kakashi and Haku down because he was still human.

ET Zabuza managed to cut Kakashi, however, in spite of having to also go through Haku and being even further from Kakashi. Kabuto does not have to go through someone else to hit Kakashi and is also closer, so he can land the chakra scalpel strike, IMO.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Comparing someone as fast as A4 to Kabuto is pointless, is my point



Not comparing speeds at all. You miss the point.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> A4 being able to avoid a chidori says absolutely nothing about Kabuto's ability to avoid a raikiri



I never said A4 avoided a Chidori. I said A4 was able to trap Sasuke's arm and take the opportunity to powerbomb him.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> I don't see any feats from P1 Kabuto that put him above P1 Kakashi in speed



Escaping him at the hospital puts him more than relative.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Certainly nothing that makes it possible for him to partially avoid one attack from Kakashi in CQC and then prevent him from using more before cutting him



Fixed.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Maybe the dogs could tag Kabuto by themselves, maybe they couldn't



You need to prove they can tag him, as you made the positive statement they can.

IMO, they cannot, as they could tag Zabuza only because the guy was blind. 

Kabuto scales to a non-blind Kakashi in speed, so not happening here.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> We don't have enough info to say for sure. But they certainly wouldn't make Kabuto's life any easier with Kakashi also pressuring him at the same time



We do.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> So Kabuto got duped by a 12 year old but he's going to outwit Kakashi?



The same 12-year old that *outwitted Zabuza, who in turn outwitted Kakashi*?  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Not only that, but he's going to outwit Kakashi using a tactic that he failed to see through himself?



Well, yes. It's kind of a common sense tactic, actually - especially against someone superior to you in CQC.

Naruto managed to leverage Kabuto's CQC inadequacy and arrogance before using a new jutsu Kabuto did not know he had.

None of this applies to Kakashi or ever will; Kabuto knows who Kakashi is and what the Sharingan can do.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Why is Kakashi going to be the rash one here? Kabuto is one of the most overconfident character's in the manga and yet Kakashi is just going to blindly rush him with a raikiri and let himself get stuff, assuming Kabuto survives? That's completely out of character.



Kakashi was plenty rash against Hidan and Kakuzu when he went for a Raikiri on Hidan instead of ensuring Kakuzu remained dead.

He was rash when he went for a Raikiri against Zabuza AT ALL when a kunai stab to the throat could have sufficed. Zabuza was immobile.

Kabuto is arrogant, but not nearly to the degree you proclaim; being arrogant against a Genin whom you still defeated anyway and being arrogant against the Copy Ninja and your stated equal are two entirely different things. In fact, Kabuto is VERY cautious - arguably more so than Kakashi, even, at least in some situations. We saw how cautious he was against Tsunade, Kakashi, and the Uchiha brothers.

For Tsunade, Kabuto chose to change the battlefield to better dodge attacks from her and delay Jiraiya from arriving earlier), made sure to tire Tsunade out and then replenish himself using a pill before finally engaging her directly, and immediately cut himself once it became clear Tsunade was still a threat even when exhausted and worn out. For Naruto, Kabuto thought a step ahead in spite of being arrogant and hence survived Rasengan while also killing Naruto if not for Tsunade finally overcoming her blood phobia to heal Naruto. Even before all that, he immediately realized Tsunade's KI from her attempt to ''heal'' Oro and saved Oro, who himself did not realize it. 

For the Uchiha brothers, Kabuto took several precautions to avoid Genjutsu and restrict ocular abilities more generally, using snake sensing, snake chakra clones, Hakugeki, and so on. For Kakashi himself, Kabuto leveraged Kakashi's ANBU guard against him, disguising them and himself so well from the START he utterly played Kakashi and made his escape successfully, with Kakashi marveling at his skills of deception and overall ability.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 5, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But not in P2. In fact, Kakashi stated the reason he avoided the attack on the bridge is because Zabuza *hesitated*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haku holding Kakashi in place for Zabuza to attack is not the same as Kabuto having a Raikiri through his chest and counter attacking from that position. This is assuming that he's fast enough to avoid getting struck in the heart, which I do not think he is. It's also assuming that Kakashi is not a clone, which is not guaranteed. And it's assuming that Kabuto himself is not being held in place by a clone or dogs. On top of all that, Kabuto is not Tsunade. His healing is not nearly as robust and he cannot shrug off being impaled through the chest like it was nothing even if he could survive it and heal from it.

Kabuto jumping out of a window that was right next to him using a prepped disguise while Kakashi was on the other side of the room does not make him as fast or faster than Kakashi. Once he was out of that window, he was in free fall. He already had a head start and Kakashi did not pursue him. This is not proof of how his speed compares against Kakashi in either direction.

We most certainly do not have enough evidence to say that Kakashi's dogs couldn't tag Kabuto. The circumstances on the bridge did not give us any indication of how fast the dogs might be on land in a different scenario. Kakashi was smart enough to utilize them against Zabuza's strengths and weaknesses and if he doesn't think that they would be able to catch Kabuto on their own then he would use them differently. Having them attack from off angles while Kakashi himself is attacking Kabuto. Having them come up from the ground after he's "stuck" in Kabuto like you seem to think it bound to happen.

It's a common sense tactic and yet Kabuto didn't see it coming. But he's going to turn around and use that same tactic that never even crossed his mind? Meanwhile, Kakashi is gonna lose all his braincells and he's got no plans or tactics in mind. Just gonna rush at Kabuto and hope for the best? Like, fair enough, Kabuto isn't _irrationally_ overconfident in every scenario but at the same time, Kakashi is not a fucking idiot. This isn't a match where Kabuto is thinking about his next move and Kakashi is just taking swings waiting to spring a trap.

You say Kabuto won't underestimate Kakashi because of his reputation and knowledge of the sharingan... so why would Kakashi underestimate Kabuto when he was so impressed with his skills?

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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Haku holding Kakashi in place for Zabuza to attack is not the same as Kabuto having a Raikiri through his chest and counter attacking from that position. This is assuming that he's fast enough to avoid getting struck in the heart, which I do not think he is. It's also assuming that Kakashi is not a clone, which is not guaranteed. And it's assuming that Kabuto himself is not being held in place by a clone or dogs. On top of all that, Kabuto is not Tsunade. His healing is not nearly as robust and he cannot shrug off being impaled through the chest like it was nothing even if he could survive it and heal from it.
> 
> Kabuto jumping out of a window that was right next to him using a prepped disguise while Kakashi was on the other side of the room does not make him as fast or faster than Kakashi. Once he was out of that window, he was in free fall. He already had a head start and Kakashi did not pursue him. This is not proof of how his speed compares against Kakashi in either direction.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 5, 2022)

Okay, that was fucking funny.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2022)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Haku holding Kakashi in place for Zabuza to attack is not the same as Kabuto having a Raikiri through his chest and counter attacking from that position



You're right, Kabuto has it easier as he has less distance and obstruction to overcome.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> This is assuming that he's fast enough to avoid getting struck in the heart, which I do not think he is



I do, and your assumption is a *lot* harder to prove than mine.

Kabuto is relative to Kakashi in speed, he can at the very least dodge Raikiri a little bit.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's also assuming that Kakashi is not a clone, which is not guaranteed



Kakashi clones use Raikiri? Since when? Proof they even have the chakra for it in P1?



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And it's assuming that Kabuto himself is not being held in place by a clone or dogs



You are assuming a clone can hold him in place in the first place, when more likely Kabuto kills it immediately, or that the dogs can tag him (they can't, they only tagged Zabuza because Zabuza was blind and the dude with both his eyes is relative to Kakashi).



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> On top of all that, Kabuto is not Tsunade. His healing is not nearly as robust and he cannot shrug off being impaled through the chest like it was nothing even if he could survive it and heal from it



He was grinning after eating a direct Rasengan and still able to function (if not necessarily fight any more).

All Kabuto needs to do is avert a fatal blow, go for a decisive blow ASAP, and then regenerate. 

He can ingest a blood pill beforehand too to reduce the effects of pain.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kabuto jumping out of a window that was right next to him using a prepped disguise while Kakashi was on the other side of the room does not make him as fast or faster than Kakashi



The room was pretty small and Kakashi (and his clone) technically had the disguised Kabuto in his vision. 



No excuses here  



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Once he was out of that window, he was in free fall



That's not how Shunshin works. Actual free-fall speeds are slow compared to ninja, Shunshin maintains super speed.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> We most certainly do not have enough evidence to say that Kakashi's dogs couldn't tag Kabuto. The circumstances on the bridge did not give us any indication of how fast the dogs might be on land in a different scenario. Kakashi was smart enough to utilize them against Zabuza's strengths and weaknesses and if he doesn't think that they would be able to catch Kabuto on their own then he would use them differently. Having them attack from off angles while Kakashi himself is attacking Kabuto. Having them come up from the ground after he's "stuck" in Kabuto like you seem to think it bound to happen



Sounds like wishful thinking, tbh. 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It's a common sense tactic and yet Kabuto didn't see it coming



Not common sense, *suicidal* in Naruto's case. Kabuto has an out, Naruto did not.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> But he's going to turn around and use that same tactic that never even crossed his mind?



I mean, he literally DID though? He started healing himself *before* he even took the Rasengan, lol.



In other words, Naruto and Kabuto BOTH used the same tactic on each other, Kabuto just did more successfully.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Meanwhile, Kakashi is gonna lose all his braincells and he's got no plans or tactics in mind. Just gonna rush at Kabuto and hope for the best? Like, fair enough, Kabuto isn't _irrationally_ overconfident in every scenario but at the same time, Kakashi is not a fucking idiot. This isn't a match where Kabuto is thinking about his next move and Kakashi is just taking swings waiting to spring a trap.
> 
> You say Kabuto won't underestimate Kakashi because of his reputation and knowledge of the sharingan... so why would Kakashi underestimate Kabuto when he was so impressed with his skills?



Fair points. I am not saying Kakashi will underestimate Kabuto purposefully, just that he may not know what to expect.

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