# Zoro, Ace and Law vs DFless Marco



## Magentabeard (Sep 14, 2014)

Can the team win? Marco can be hurt by these guys who have strong ass firepower.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 14, 2014)

Marcos haki should be greater than DD's and seeing as we don't know if law can cut him then I say Marco wins high-diff until more info is shown


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## StrawHat4Life (Sep 14, 2014)

Law doesn't have to cut Marco. He's hax enough in other ways. They take out Marco with mid difficulty.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 14, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Law doesn't have to cut Marco. He's hax enough in other ways. They take out Marco with mid difficulty.



My bad I never saw Ace was in the mix then they take it High diff imo


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## GreenStache (Sep 14, 2014)

the blue pigeon dies


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## Goomoonryong (Sep 14, 2014)

Marco loses a lot more than his regen when his DF is taken away. He loses his ability to fly, speed, mobility, and his main style of fighting. With Ace and Zoro spamming their AoE attacks and Law supporting them, Marcos not winning this.


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## Canute87 (Sep 14, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Law doesn't have to cut Marco. He's hax enough in other ways. They take out Marco with mid difficulty.



Yeah that sounds about right.


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## Luke (Sep 14, 2014)

The trio wins with medium difficulty.


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## convict (Sep 14, 2014)

No he won't considering he's dead. 

But Marco still wins this. He is physically obviously superior to Doflamingo who himself is a physical monstrosity capable of completely overcoming Luffy's Haki and downright blitzing him. Marco's Haki should be too much for Zoro's, Law's, or Ace's attacks to be effective and he absolutely eclipses them in speed.


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## Lycka (Sep 14, 2014)

He's much physically superior.

If Doffy can tank a red hawk it wouldn't even scratch Marco then.


Marco blitzes and one shots Law. Handily beats Ace and Zoro provides only moderate difficulty.


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## Canute87 (Sep 14, 2014)

Lycka said:


> He's much physically superior.
> 
> If Doffy can tank a red hawk it wouldn't even scratch Marco then.
> 
> ...



I saw ace have enough time to get in the way full body of an admiral propelling himself with Magma towards killing luffy.

Marco ain't blitzing anyone with the support they have.


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## Lycka (Sep 14, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> I saw ace have enough time to get in the way full body of an admiral propelling himself with Magma towards killing luffy.
> 
> Marco ain't blitzing anyone with the support they have.



Vergo blitzed Law who was easily bested by Sanji.

He was also easily caught off guard by Smoker.



Marco blitzes Law and one shots the person who with a single strike to the head was incapacitated by Vergo (albeit defenseless but it won't matter given how much stronger Marco is).



Ace and Zoro are the only factors in this match since Law won't be able to cut Marco.

Idk how to rate ace tbh.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 14, 2014)

What the hell is this? I won't even bother reading other posts in this thread, but did anyone actually post Marco wins? Team mid diffs at worst. 3 m3 people not beating a nerfed top tier that isnt on par with an admiral


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## Canute87 (Sep 14, 2014)

Lycka said:


> Vergo blitzed Law who was easily bested by Sanji.
> 
> He was also easily caught off guard by Smoker.
> 
> ...



I don't know why you want to pretend crushing someone's heart is not a thing.


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## 2Broken (Sep 14, 2014)

I like how people are trying to use Doflamingo to scale Marco.....


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## barreltheif (Sep 14, 2014)

Marco loses badly. He's extremely DF reliant, and I doubt he'd win even with his DF.


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## Amol (Sep 15, 2014)

Marco looses.
Without DF he looses his main fighting style . Just tank and attack.


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## Suit (Sep 15, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> What the hell is this? I won't even bother reading other posts in this thread, but did anyone actually post Marco wins? Team mid diffs at worst. 3 m3 people not beating a nerfed top tier that isnt on par with an admiral



Marco has considerably better stats than Doflamingo. With his DF, it would likely be a stomp. Without it, Marco will probably take it mid or even high-diff.


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## Datassassin (Sep 15, 2014)

Marco gets his ass burnt/chopped. Team wins with nothing above mid difficulty.


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## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

Zoro, Ace, and Law win with around low to mid difficulty at most.  Even if it's Marco without his Devil Fruit excluded, I think they would defeat him with around mid to high difficulty at most.


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## killfox (Sep 15, 2014)

1.Marco has haki strong enough to connect with an admirals real body.  Something no one here.can do. (Ace/Zoro have no haki feats and  Laws haki is < Doflamingos)

2. He has superior speed and strength and reactions.

3.He has superior endurance. (He took multiple lazers from Kizaru while wearing.sea stone cuffs and kept going)

Teleporting Marco around the room is useless because it drains laws stamina, and law  and Zorro wouldnt be able to cut him due to his superrior haki. Ace is the.biggest threat, but with no haki feats he has no defense agains marco while marco.can defend against the flames.with.haki.

Once Law is.taken out its basically a straight up massacre. 

Marco high mid.diff to low high diff.


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 15, 2014)

How weak are Ace, Zoro and Law that they can't take out a massively handicapped Marco
Team low or mid diff. High if his haki is really that good but his attacks didn't even faze the admirals


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Zoro, Ace, and Law win with around low to mid difficulty at most.  Even if it's Marco without his Devil Fruit excluded, I think they would defeat him with around mid to high difficulty at most.



Lol Marco low diffs them if he has his df. They're not surviving long enough to bypass Marco's regen limit. Marco has better mobility, experience, physical stats, and haki.

Since Marco's df is defensive, i don't think he loses much in terms of fire power. If the trio has good teamwork then it could go either way. If Marco has intel he mid diffs. Marco took like five lasers from Kizaru handcuffed. If the people he's fighting has haki way below admirals, i don't think they would hurt him too bad. Marco can two shot these guys, he sent a resisting Kizaru flying down. People always complain about Marco being weak offensely but he's done nothing but kick people. Wait until he uses a named attack. You can't just have haki strong enough to hit admirals and enough strength to force a resisting Kizaru flying if you're not extremely strong.


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## barreltheif (Sep 15, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Lol Marco low diffs them if he has his df. They're not surviving long enough to bypass Marco's regen limit. Marco has better mobility, experience, physical stats, and haki.
> 
> Since Marco's df is defensive, i don't think he loses much in terms of fire power. If the trio has good teamwork then it could go either way. If Marco has intel he mid diffs. Marco took like five lasers from Kizaru handcuffed. If the people he's fighting has haki way below admirals, i don't think they would hurt him too bad. Marco can two shot these guys, he sent a resisting Kizaru flying down. People always complain about Marco being weak offensely but he's done nothing but kick people. Wait until he uses a named attack. You can't just have haki strong enough to hit admirals and enough strength to force a resisting Kizaru flying if you're not extremely strong.




Marco's DF isn't just defensive. His talons provide his best form of offense, and his wings account for his mobility. Of people on his level, he's by far the most DF reliant. He relies on it for every aspect of combat.
Marco was hit by two lasers, not five, and they seriously wounded him and put him out of the fight until he was able to regenerate later.
Marco knocked Kizaru downwards, but that was because Kizaru was in mid air. He was about to fall back down to the ground regardless. In the end, he was completely unharmed, which is what really matters.

Marco without a DF will get destroyed by these three. With his DF, he'd give them a good fight but would still probably lose.


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 15, 2014)

DF Marco beats them mid-high to high diff.

Thus they beat DFless Marco around mid-high to high diff., too.

DFless Akainu could extreme diff the trio for example.


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## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Marco low diffs them if he has his df.



I respectfully disagree.  I think individually- at minimum- Zoro would give him low to mid (closer to mid than low) difficulty, Ace would give him low to mid difficulty, and current Law would give him low to mid difficulty.

So, I don't think Marco would defeat all 3 of them combined.  If it were any combination of 2 out of the 3, then I could maybe see Marco winning.  All 3 seems like too much, though, IMO.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 15, 2014)

They're going to take down Marco with very high difficulty, mainly because of Law.
Most of Marco's power lies in his fruit, so he loses quite a lot. Either way, the guy is still one durability monster, and his physical stats are still greater than all of their abilities combined. 

If you take any one of them away, Marco would probably win.
The three of them are enough to edge him out, though.


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## killfox (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I think individually- at minimum- Zoro would give him low to mid (closer to mid than low) difficulty, Ace would give him low to mid difficulty, and current Law would give him low to mid difficulty.
> 
> So, I don't think Marco would defeat all 3 of them combined.  If it were any combination of 2 out of the 3, then I could maybe see Marco winning.  All 3 seems like too much, though, IMO.



Are u serious?  Zorro would never push marco to mid diff. Zorros captain (Luffy) got blitzed, had his haki broken through and was essentially no diffed and tied up by doflamingo. Marcos Haki is >>> Doflamingos. Law had Intel on flamingos power and even then only pushed Flamingo to low diff. Sanji literally got no diffed as well. Ace would stand a decent chance against flamingo if he had some haki feats but without them he gets wrecked by flamingos long distance haki strings.

Point is if none of these people can individually bring Doflamingo past low diff then how can u say that individually they can bring marco to mid diff? Flamingo wrecks them and he has no feats of fighting against the admirals.

Haki matters ALOT. Without his Df marco is basically an upgraded version of Vergo with nigh admiral level physical stats and haki. All the hax in the world wont matter if u cant hurt your opponent.


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## barreltheif (Sep 15, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Most of Marco's power lies in his fruit, so he loses quite a lot. *Either way, the guy is still one durability monster*




Evidence?
/


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Evidence?
> /



Took them lasers from Kizaru while handcuffed.


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## barreltheif (Sep 15, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Took them lasers from Kizaru while handcuffed.




What do you mean "took them"? He was hit by two lasers and he survived, but wasn't able to fight until he regenerated later.
How does that make him a "durability beast"?


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> What do you mean "took them"? He was hit by two lasers and he survived, but wasn't able to fight until he regenerated later.
> How does that make him a "durability beast"?



How does a df user fight while handcuffed with Kairoseki? Or what can a normal person even do with his hands cuffed? Did you want to see Marco running around or something


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## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

killfox said:


> Are u serious?  Zorro would never push marco to mid diff. Zorros captain (Luffy) got blitzed, had his haki broken through and was essentially no diffed and tied up by doflamingo. Marcos Haki is >>> Doflamingos. Law had Intel on flamingos power and even then only pushed Flamingo to low diff. Sanji literally got no diffed as well. Ace would stand a decent chance against flamingo if he had some haki feats but without them he gets wrecked by flamingos long distance haki strings.
> 
> Point is if none of these people can individually bring Doflamingo past low diff then how can u say that individually they can bring marco to mid diff? Flamingo wrecks them and he has no feats of fighting against the admirals.
> 
> Haki matters ALOT. Without his Df marco is basically an upgraded version of Vergo with nigh admiral level physical stats and haki. All the hax in the world wont matter if u cant hurt your opponent.



Some of these are fair points, but:

-I respectfully disagree that current Zoro would "definitely not" give Marco mid difficulty.   I think Zoro is only a few major Arcs away at most from surpassing Marco.  Besides, I said between low difficulty and mid difficulty.  

-Luffy will most likely come back and defeat Doflamingo.

-I'm not sure I agree that Marco's Haki is superior to Doflamingo's, let alone far superior.  I doubt either are far superior to the other in that regard.

-Doflamingo hasn't fought the Admirals as much as Marco has, but to be fair he hasn't been bested by an Admiral in the few brief confrontations he's had with some, which includes some fighting.  I think Doflamingo would give Marco at least around high difficulty if they were to fight, if not extremely high difficulty.


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## trance (Sep 15, 2014)

I have to admit this, Gohara is sure careful with his wording as to not let burden of proof fall on him.


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## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

Well, one thing I love about One Piece is that many of the power levels are not 100% clear cut, leaving so much room to debate.  I don't want to disrespect others' opinions by instantly assuming that I have interpreted certain things 100% accurately.


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## blueframe01 (Sep 15, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Took them lasers from Kizaru while handcuffed.



Pre Skip Luffy took a few of them too. Heck quite a few SNs had been lasered by him as well. 

On Topic, The trio takes this. Zoan tends to boost the physical attributes of a character, so without it, not only does Marco lose his regen, he ends up with much less mobility without the wings, much less offense due to the lack of talons and a whole lot of physical stats. 

A DFless Marco would probably struggle to beat Dofla. in comparison Dofla would most probably go down to either 2 of these fighters. So i don't see Marco faring any better against 3 of them


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> What do you mean "took them"? He was hit by two lasers and he survived, but wasn't able to fight until he regenerated later.
> How does that make him a "durability beast"?



What do you mean by he's only able to fight after regenerating. He was cuffed. Df users can't fight when they're cuffed.  Seastone weakens df users, to be able to survive lasers from Kizaru in that state shows great durability.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> With his DF, he'd give them a good fight but would still probably lose.


Marco shrugged off attacks from multiple top tiers without running out of regen, so your statement is incorrect.


killfox said:


> Are u serious?  Zorro would never push marco to mid diff. Zorros captain (Luffy) got blitzed, had his haki broken through and was essentially no diffed and tied up by doflamingo. Marcos Haki is >>> Doflamingos. Law had Intel on flamingos power and even then only pushed Flamingo to low diff. Sanji literally got no diffed as well. Ace would stand a decent chance against flamingo if he had some haki feats but without them he gets wrecked by flamingos long distance haki strings.
> 
> Point is if none of these people can individually bring Doflamingo past low diff then how can u say that individually they can bring marco to mid diff? Flamingo wrecks them and he has no feats of fighting against the admirals.
> 
> Haki matters ALOT. Without his Df marco is basically an upgraded version of Vergo with nigh admiral level physical stats and haki. All the hax in the world wont matter if u cant hurt your opponent.


Ignore him, he exists to destroy logic...


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## Dae2 (Sep 15, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Marco shrugged off attacks from multiple top tiers without running out of regen, so your statement is incorrect.




I see where you are going but I believe your logic is flawed. Marco's power allows him to take damage and negate it's effects. It renders most attacks against him harmless.

Regarding the fight, what many people seem to not understand about Marco is how his fights, in particular how he defends. To wit, he doesn't. Marco doesn't dodge, he doesn't block, he doesn't redirect, he takes attacks full on and relies how his ability to heal the damage he is dealt. With no Devil Fruit to rely on, this is a problem. Taking away a Devil Fruit from a user who relies on their power for battle is the same as taking away a boxer's arms. Marco relies heavily on his ability and stripping him of it puts him a massive disadvantage, as he would need to alter his entire way of fighting. He loses.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 15, 2014)

Dae2 said:


> I see where you are going but I believe your logic is flawed. Marco's power allows him to take damage and negate it's effects. It renders most attacks against him harmless.
> 
> Regarding the fight, what many people seem to not understand about Marco is how his fights, in particular how he defends. To wit, he doesn't. Marco doesn't dodge, he doesn't block, he doesn't redirect, he takes attacks full on and relies how his ability to heal the damage he is dealt. With no Devil Fruit to rely on, this is a problem. Taking away a Devil Fruit from a user who relies on their power for battle is the same as taking away a boxer's arms. Marco relies heavily on his ability and stripping him of it puts him a massive disadvantage, as he would need to alter his entire way of fighting. He loses.


Never said Marco wins this match without his DF, just saying he'd wouldn't lose if he had his DF.


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## Dae2 (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Never said Marco wins this match without his DF, just saying he'd wouldn't lose if he had his DF.




I misread the quote you were replying to, I thought it said "Without his DF..." The second paragraph wasn't responding you. I don't know how Marco would do with his Devil Fruit in this fight. He's fast and has good strength, but he didn't really show all that much power. Not more than Ace anyway. I'm not saying Marco isn't stronger, but just on his feats I don't see it yet.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 16, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Pre Skip Luffy took a few of them too. Heck quite a few SNs had been lasered by him as well.
> 
> On Topic, The trio takes this. Zoan tends to boost the physical attributes of a character, so without it, not only does Marco lose his regen, he ends up with much less mobility without the wings, much less offense due to the lack of talons and a whole lot of physical stats.
> 
> A DFless Marco would probably struggle to beat Dofla. in comparison Dofla would most probably go down to either 2 of these fighters. So i don't see Marco faring any better against 3 of them



Fair points, but I still think Marco doesn't lose too much offensively since he's a melee weaponless combatant. Marco should still be able to take any of the three out in a couple of hits. There's also no evidence for Marco's df giving him a physical stat boost.


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## hungrytrash (Sep 16, 2014)

Marco wins. This thread surprises me because of a couple reasons:
1) If anyone gave this scenario against an admiral without their fruit, 97% of the people would give it to the admiral
2) People are saying Marco is more dependent on his fruit than most people...don't know where that's coming from but it's garbage. Marco's DF provides him a similar defensive boost to an admiral, but provides way less of an offense boost. That means his base self is much closer to his DF-self than admiral would be in the same situation. Plus using a Zoan in combat is relying on your own physical skill and stats. The Zoan augments them but if you are bad at fighting in the first place your Zoan will be garbage for you. Which means he is a lot LESS dependent on his fruit than the admirals would be, for example.
3) People are acting like Marco isn't very strong in general. It's okay to think he's weaker than an admiral, but you have pretty much no proof. He didn't hurt Kizaru and Kizaru didn't hurt him. Yeah, he was taken by surprise when he was watching the person he cared about most in the world's life be put in danger. Blackbeard was 1-shotted by Magellan. Neither scenario demonstrates their strength properly. If he is weaker than an admiral, it's by a razor-thin margin.

Thus take an admiral-level person's fruit away and what do you get? Something along the lines of Sabo. Sorry Luffy, Law, and Ace.


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## killfox (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Some of these are fair points, but:
> 
> -I respectfully disagree that current Zoro would "definitely not" give Marco mid difficulty.   I think Zoro is only a few major Arcs away at most from surpassing Marco.  Besides, I said between low difficulty and mid difficulty.


 Luffy got no diffed by Doflamingo. Luffy is stronger or = to Zorro. If Luffys haki got broken through by Flamingo theres NO WAY Zorro is going to do anything against Marco who has near admiral level haki Period. Zorros end goal (Mihawk) couldn't even scratch Jozu and Marco is stronger than Jozu.



Gohara said:


> -Luffy will most likely come back and defeat Doflamingo.


 Its called Plot. Without it Flamingo would have already killed Law and Luffy already. 



Gohara said:


> -I'm not sure I agree that Marco's Haki is superior to Doflamingo's, let alone far superior.  I doubt either are far superior to the other in that regard.


 You dont really have to agree the proof is jn the feats. If an enraged marco was switched with Flamingo and kicked Fujitora he wouldn't have effortlessly blocked his attack like he did to Flamingo. WB, Marco Jozu and Rayleigh are the only ones who have feats of hitting/damaging an admiral. Zorro isnt in the same league as the big dogs. Even Sabo whos a top tier haki using logia couldn't put a scratch on Fujitora.



Gohara said:


> -Doflamingo hasn't fought the Admirals as much as Marco has, but to be fair he hasn't been bested by an Admiral in the few brief confrontations he's had with some, which includes some fighting.  I think Doflamingo would give Marco at least around high difficulty if they were to fight, if not extremely high difficulty.


Doflamingo never fought an admiral. His kick was effortlessly stopped by Fujitora and he got frozen by Kuzan and left. Marco fought Kizaru, Kicled Kuzan across the battlefield to save Luffy,  had to have Garp step in to punch him because at the time no one elae could stop him, and stopped a magmafist from Akainu and even held him off for a bit.

Flamingo isnt on that level until he proves otherwise. And by feats ive already proven how Flamingo no diffs-low diffs all the fighters including Zorro.

 With Marcos level of haki they literally cant hurt him df or not.


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## killfox (Sep 16, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Pre Skip Luffy took a few of them too. Heck quite a few SNs had been lasered by him as well.
> 
> On Topic, The trio takes this. Zoan tends to boost the physical attributes of a character, so without it, not only does Marco lose his regen, he ends up with much less mobility without the wings, much less offense due to the lack of talons and a whole lot of physical stats.
> 
> A DFless Marco would probably struggle to beat Dofla. in comparison Dofla would most probably go down to either 2 of these fighters. So i don't see Marco faring any better against 3 of them



Show me a scan or pic of a supernova taking  two lazers through  the gut and the chest. 

Getting hit by a lazer through the arm  or anywhere else doesnt compare. And also if they took the lazer and were out of commission it doesn't count as an endurance feat. Marco was shown up actively waiting for his cuffs to be unlocked as opposed to badly injured or down and out. 

Also zoans only boost stats physically when the body parts are transformed. When he attacked Kizaru he used his human leg and again when he attacked Kuzan. The only time he transformed his leg is when he attacked Akainu with talons so your point is invalid.

Also without his df hes still a top tier, so i can still see him beating Flamingo with moderate diff.


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## killfox (Sep 16, 2014)

To all the people saying the trio wins can someone please tell me your logic? I understand there is power in numbers but laws df is useless as he cant cut marco. Law has better feats than zorro so he cant hurt him either and Ace has no haki.

I literally can't see them doing anything other than getting 1 or 2 shot. 

Unless someone will argue that they have superior haki there's no way they can win.


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

killfox said:


> Luffy got no diffed by Doflamingo. Luffy is stronger or = to Zorro. If Luffys haki got broken through by Flamingo theres NO WAY Zorro is going to do anything against Marco who has near admiral level haki Period. Zorros end goal (Mihawk) couldn't even scratch Jozu and Marco is stronger than Jozu.



-Luffy is most likely going to defeat Doflamingo.  Neither of them have gone all out yet- so I think it's premature to say Doflamingo is far, far, far stronger than Luffy.

-I'm not sure I agree that Doflamingo's Haki is inferior to Marco's or the Admirals'.

-Jozu, with difficulty, blocked a one handed attack from a far away Mihawk.  That doesn't necessarily mean Mihawk can't cut Jozu, nor does that necessarily mean Mihawk can't cut Marco.



killfox said:


> Its called Plot. Without it Flamingo would have already killed Law and Luffy already.



If we're going to say plot is the reason, one could just say Luffy is in actuality on Doflamingo's level, but due to plot has been losing so far.

I don't think plot is really a reason one way or the other.  If Luffy defeats Doflamingo or at least fights on par or close to on par with him, then the latter can't defeat the former with any less than around high difficulty.



killfox said:


> You dont really have to agree the proof is jn the feats. If an enraged marco was switched with Flamingo and kicked Fujitora he wouldn't have effortlessly blocked his attack like he did to Flamingo. WB, Marco Jozu and Rayleigh are the only ones who have feats of hitting/damaging an admiral. Zorro isnt in the same league as the big dogs. Even Sabo whos a top tier haki using logia couldn't put a scratch on Fujitora.



-Fujitora didn't really block it effortlessly.  We don't know that Doflamingo put any more effort into it than Fujitora did.  Furthermore, Doflamingo just attacked with his foot while Fujitora blocked it with his weapon.

-It's speculative as to whether or not Marco's attack would be blocked by Fujitora, and if so with how much difficulty.

-Not that many high/top tier characters have fought the Admirals.  Damaging an Admiral doesn't instantly make you high or top tier.  It's possible that people in a similar league could do the same, but since we haven't seen them fight Admirals yet we have yet to see them do so.

-To say that Sabo "couldn't" put a scratch on Fujitora is speculative.  Considering they seemed to fight on par with one another, it's likely that they could damage each other, and simply didn't because they were fighting on par with one another and the fight had yet to get anywhere near it's climax.

I don't really see how any of this proves that Marco's Haki is superior to Doflamingo's.



killfox said:


> Doflamingo never fought an admiral. His kick was effortlessly stopped by Fujitora and he got frozen by Kuzan and left. Marco fought Kizaru, Kicled Kuzan across the battlefield to save Luffy,  had to have Garp step in to punch him because at the time no one elae could stop him, and stopped a magmafist from Akainu and even held him off for a bit.



-In regards to Doflamingo vs. Fujitora, refer to what I said above.  I would also throw out that Doflamingo has destroyed Fujitora's meteors without much of a problem on multiple occasions.

-Doflamingo was frozen from behind, and then he broke out of the ice without much of a problem.

-Marco stopping Akainu's attack was only in the Anime, if I remember correctly.  



killfox said:


> Flamingo isnt on that level until he proves otherwise.



Whether or not he's on that level is a debatable point.  There's no proof one way or the other.  I personally believe Doflamingo is on that level, but it's not a fact that he is.  I just think the way he's been portrayed during his confrontation with the Admirals makes it likely he's around their level.  Plus- he has an extremely high level of physical prowess, has one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series, and has mastered all three types of Haki.  These are pretty similar to the Admirals' attributes.  It's also worth noting that Rayleigh trained Luffy so he would be able to fend off a combined invasion from Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  He felt Luffy was already capable of that around 6 months ago.  So, that leads me to believe that Luffy himself is likely Admiral level or very close to it at this point.  Yet, so far, Doflamingo has bested Luffy and will most likely fight on par with him at the very least.


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## killfox (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -Luffy is most likely going to defeat Doflamingo.  Neither of them have gone all out yet- so I think it's premature to say Doflamingo is far, far, far stronger than Luffy.


Doflamingo took Luffy  down effortlessly without any named attacks meanwhile Luffy landed one of his strongest _named_ attacks while using G2 and haki only to have it shruged off.  Ontop of that Doflamingo shrugged it off *WITHOUT USING HAKI* had he used haki the red hawk would have done no damage as Flamingos haki has shown to be superrior to Luffys. If that isnt showing that flamingo is far far stronger idk what is. 



Gohara said:


> -I'm not sure I agree that Doflamingo's Haki is inferior to Marco's or the Admirals'.


 You dont have to agree. The thing with feats is, if a character hasnt shown to be at a certain level u cant "assume" just to form a case. Doflamingo just doesnt have the feats to back himself up. His haki is weaker than Marcos until he shows otherwise. 



Gohara said:


> -Jozu, with difficulty, blocked a one handed attack from a far away Mihawk.  That doesn't necessarily mean Mihawk can't cut Jozu, nor does that necessarily mean Mihawk can't cut Marco.


First off weather it be one handed or 2 it doesnt matter. WBs quake was one handed, Akainus magma fist was one handed, Shanks stopped Akainu one handed, Kizaru shoots lazers one handed. So if u were trying to use that as evidence that Mihawks attack was weak then u failed. 2ndly I never argued if Mihawk could cut Jozu or Marco, my point is that if Mihawk who is far stronger than Zorro couldnt damage Jozu with a serious attack (aimed at the WSM) then theres no way Zorro can damage Marco who is stronger than Jozu.




Gohara said:


> If we're going to say plot is the reason, one could just say Luffy is in actuality on Doflamingo's level, but due to plot has been losing so far.


Thats huge assumption. Never in the history of this Manga have there been 2 people of a similar level with one completely dominating the other. (Akainu vs Kuzan, WB vs Roger, Luffy vs Lucci, Kizaru vs Marco). 

At least my use of plot is literally true. 1. Instead of shooting law with lead bullets he could have shot him in the head or sliced his head off. 2. Instead of tying Luffy up to tell him about his past he could have killed him on spot. 3. Had Flamingo actually killed Law Luffy would have never landed red hawk and would have been completely decimated by Doflamingo and trebol. 

Plot *literally* saved Luffys ass. And the fact that the plot saved luffy shows that Doflamingo is in fact superior to Luffy. 



Gohara said:


> I don't think plot is really a reason one way or the other.  If Luffy defeats Doflamingo or at least fights on par or close to on par with him, then the latter can't defeat the former with any less than around high difficulty.


Above I explained how plot is actually saving Luffy. Luffy would never no diff sanji or smoker. Like i said Luffy landed one of his strongest attacks and still got no diffed.




Gohara said:


> -Fujitora didn't really block it effortlessly.  We don't know that Doflamingo put any more effort into it than Fujitora did.  Furthermore, Doflamingo just attacked with his foot while Fujitora blocked it with his weapon.


Of course Fujitora blocked it with his weapon. Hes a swordsman. When has Zorro or mihawk even stopped an attack bare handed? Marcos kick would do way more than Flamingos kick. 


Gohara said:


> -It's speculative as to whether or not Marco's attack would be blocked by Fujitora, and if so with how much difficulty.


Kizar



Gohara said:


> -Not that many high/top tier characters have fought the Admirals. * Damaging an Admiral doesn't instantly make you high or top tier.* *It's possible that people in a similar league could do the same*, but since we haven't seen them fight Admirals yet we have yet to see them do so.


Damaging an admiral does infact make u top tier, especially if the said admiral is a logia. Admirals by nature are the strongest fighting force of the Marines, meaning top tier physical stats and haki. Logias cant even be touched without haki. This means for Marco to even land a hit on Kizaru and Kuzan, his haki literally had to break though their haki. Similar to how Flamingo broke through Luffys haki and Vergo broke through smokers haki. Marco broke through an admirals haki, that alone means he has top tier haki. 



Gohara said:


> -To say that Sabo "couldn't" put a scratch on Fujitora is speculative.  Considering they seemed to fight on par with one another, it's likely that they could damage each other, and simply didn't because they were fighting on par with one another and the fight had yet to get anywhere near it's climax.


The fight may have not ended but sabo was on his knees looking tired while Fujitora literally looks like hes in perfect condition. 



Gohara said:


> I don't really see how any of this proves that Marco's Haki is superior to Doflamingo's.


Read my  above points ^ its clear that marcos haki is >>> Flamingos




Gohara said:


> -In regards to Doflamingo vs. Fujitora, refer to what I said above.  I would also throw out that Doflamingo has destroyed Fujitora's meteors without much of a problem on multiple occasions.
> 
> -Doflamingo was frozen from behind, and then he broke out of the ice without much of a problem.


Law stopped Fujitoras meteors too. Doesnt mean anything. Law is far from admiral level. 


Gohara said:


> -Marco stopping Akainu's attack was only in the Anime, if I remember correctly.


 Sorry buddy it was in the manga too. 



Perhaps this is the feat you needed to see to help show u that Marco >>>Flamingo. 


*Spoiler*: __ 











Gohara said:


> Whether or not he's on that level is a debatable point.  There's no proof one way or the other.  I personally believe Doflamingo is on that level, but it's not a fact that he is.  I just think the way he's been portrayed during his confrontation with the Admirals makes it likely he's around their level.  Plus- he has an extremely high level of physical prowess, has one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series, and has mastered all three types of Haki.  These are pretty similar to the Admirals' attributes.  It's also worth noting that Rayleigh trained Luffy so he would be able to fend off a combined invasion from Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  He felt Luffy was already capable of that around 6 months ago.  So, that leads me to believe that Luffy himself is likely Admiral level or very close to it at this point.  Yet, so far, Doflamingo has bested Luffy and will most likely fight on par with him at the very least.


I showed you proof that Flamingo isnt on Marcos level. And 2 years of training or not, there is no way Luffy could stop orr even "fend off" Kizaru, Kuma, Sentomaru and several Pxs on his own. Im sure no one here believes he can do that.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Doflamingo no diffed Sanji (someone fairly close to Luffy in strength). It wasn't even low diff. He was also able to restrain Jozu, someone who towers over Luffy in strength. It's not premature at all to say Doflamingo is on another level compared to Luffy.


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## Gohara (Sep 17, 2014)

I respectfully disagree that Jozu is stronger than current Luffy, if we're talking overall power.



killfox said:


> Doflamingo took Luffy  down effortlessly without any named attacks meanwhile Luffy landed one of his strongest _named_ attacks while using G2 and haki only to have it shruged off.  Ontop of that Doflamingo shrugged it off *WITHOUT USING HAKI* had he used haki the red hawk would have done no damage as Flamingos haki has shown to be superrior to Luffys. If that isnt showing that flamingo is far far stronger idk what is.



I wouldn't say Doflamingo shrugged it off, but I agree that it didn't deal him serious damage.  Nonetheless, he was only in Gear 2nd, and I doubt we've seen all of his techniques that he is currently able to use.  He also has a slew of other techniques.



killfox said:


> You dont have to agree. The thing with feats is, if a character hasnt shown to be at a certain level u cant "assume" just to form a case. Doflamingo just doesnt have the feats to back himself up. His haki is weaker than Marcos until he shows otherwise.



Well I'm not sure I agree that Marco has shown to have better Haki, but even if he had he's had better opportunity to show it off.  In the latter situation I agree that one can't instantly assume- for instance- that Doflamingo's Haki is superior to Marco's.  However, it also can't be instantly assumed that Marco's Haki is superior to Doflamingo's.



killfox said:


> weather it be one handed or 2 it doesnt matter. WBs quake was one handed, Akainus magma fist was one handed, Shanks stopped Akainu one handed, Kizaru shoots lazers one handed.



I wouldn't say those examples really match that of Mihawk's situation.  Two hands can't be added onto each other in the case of those examples.  While it's true two attacks from them will be more powerful than one, they aren't using both hands to create one attack.  They would just be creating two separate attacks with two separate hands.  That's different than being able to add to your attack power by using your two hands as one.



killfox said:


> my point is that if Mihawk who is far stronger than Zorro couldnt damage Jozu with a serious attack (aimed at the WSM) then theres no way Zorro can damage Marco who is stronger than Jozu.



I wouldn't say Mihawk couldn't damage Jozu.  I would actually say he very likely could without too much trouble, which leaves open the possibility that Zoro could do the same.  Plus, part of the reason Jozu was able to block the attack is due to his diamond body.



killfox said:


> Thats huge assumption. Never in the history of this Manga have there been 2 people of a similar level with one completely dominating the other. (Akainu vs Kuzan, WB vs Roger, Luffy vs Lucci, Kizaru vs Marco).



The point of dispute is whether or not they are on a similar level, so that doesn't really serve as evidence one way or the other.  If we're going to say that's an assumption, then so is saying the opposite is true.  In that case, there would be no point in debating this point.



killfox said:


> At least my use of plot is literally true. 1. Instead of shooting law with lead bullets he could have shot him in the head or sliced his head off. 2. Instead of tying Luffy up to tell him about his past he could have killed him on spot. 3. Had Flamingo actually killed Law Luffy would have never landed red hawk and would have been completely decimated by Doflamingo and trebol.



Doflamingo tied Law up to his chair.  It's very possible he wanted to use him as a hostage or just toy with him by having him watch him be successful.

If we're going to say Doflamingo has been toying with Luffy, we could just ask why the latter didn't just get serious from the start.



killfox said:


> Of course Fujitora blocked it with his weapon. Hes a swordsman.



True, but if he had to use his weapon to block it I wouldn't say he blocked it effortlessly, or at least with clearly less effort than Doflamingo used.



killfox said:


> Marcos kick would do way more than Flamingos kick.
> Kizar



We don't know how Doflamingo's physical prowess compares to theirs.  If I remember correctly (which I may not be), we don't have any relative comparisons to make that clearly suggests one or the other.



killfox said:


> Damaging an admiral does infact make u top tier



I respectfully disagree.  I think anyone who isn't far below the league of an Admiral at least has a chance of damaging them.



killfox said:


> Admirals by nature are the strongest fighting force of the Marines, meaning top tier physical stats and haki.



Force doesn't necessarily mean individuals, and usually implies as a group.  Even if that weren't the case, it doesn't really guarantee any of that to be true.



killfox said:


> The fight may have not ended but sabo was on his knees looking tired while Fujitora literally looks like hes in perfect condition.



Sabo is sitting down, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's tired.  We just saw him being lectured by Koala.



killfox said:


> Read my  above points ^ its clear that marcos haki is >>> Flamingos



You're saying that because you view the Admirals as top tier, we can safely assume that their Haki is top tier.  As a result, Marco being able to damage them means he's also top tier.

However, I disagree that:

-The Admirals are top tier.

-Being an Admiral guarantees you have top tier Haki as well as that Doflamingo's Haki is instantly inferior to theirs and Marco's.

-That you have to be on the Admirals' level to even damage them.



killfox said:


> Law stopped Fujitoras meteors too. Doesnt mean anything. Law is far from admiral level.



While I agree current Law is below Admiral level, I don't think he is far below the league of an Admiral.



killfox said:


> Sorry buddy it was in the manga too.



I see, my apologies.  I stand corrected.

However, I'm afraid it doesn't lead me to believe that Marco is more powerful than Doflamingo.  I do think pre time skip Akainu is more powerful than Doflamingo, but I don't think the difference between them is so great that the latter would be unable to stop any of the former's attacks.

Jinbe was technically able to briefly do the same, and he's far weaker than Doflamingo IMO.



killfox said:


> I showed you proof that Flamingo isnt on Marcos level.



While you make some good points and I respect your views, I wouldn't say you've proven that.  If I were to agree with you I would have to assume the Admirals are top tier, being an Admiral guarantees you have top tier Haki, and that you have to be on the Admirals' level to even damage them and stop their attacks.  I disagree with at least part of that, if not all of it.

I would also throw out that Jozu is able to damage an Admiral- yet was unable to tear through Doflamingo's strings.  If Jozu can damage an Admiral I'm sure Doflamingo can.



killfox said:


> And 2 years of training or not, there is no way Luffy could stop orr even "fend off" Kizaru, Kuma, Sentomaru and several Pxs on his own. Im sure no one here believes he can do that.



I didn't say stop, but rather fend off.  However, if he could have fended off that much around 6 months ago, I would be genuinely surprised if he was significantly below Admiral level.  Otherwise I don't see the point in his training and why Rayleigh would essentially just lie.

As for whether or not anyone here believes that, I for one do.  I don't think it really matters how many people believe that, but even if it did matter I know many who also believe the same.  However, it doesn't really matter.  I wouldn't expect nor want someone to instantly agree with something just because some others do.


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## trance (Sep 17, 2014)

> However, I disagree that:
> 
> -The Admirals are top tier.



So, the strongest weapons of Marine HQ, which itself is one of the "Three Great Powers", as well as possessing the most powerful Logias shown so far, aren't top tier? I find that extremely unlikely. Even though you obviously don't think they're as strong as the Emperors, regarding them as anything but top tier is laughable. You aren't mentioned as one of the final obstacles to being Pirate King if you're not top tier.


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## Yu Dellinger (Sep 17, 2014)

Huh? I think them teaming up is more than enough. Is it just me? Or everybody thinks Marco is THAT strong..?


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## Canute87 (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Doflamingo no diffed Sanji (someone fairly close to Luffy in strength). It wasn't even low diff. He was also able to restrain Jozu, someone who towers over Luffy in strength. It's not premature at all to say Doflamingo is on another level compared to Luffy.



Sanji attempting to fight a man who can literally walk in mid air and parasite which even held josu in place is not really a fair assessment.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Sanji attempting to fight a man who can literally walk in mid air and parasite which even held josu in place is not really a fair assessment.


Hax wasn't the reason Sanji lost that fight. Doflamingo tanked (without visible Armament Haki no less) and dodged his attacks with ease, nailed Sanji with his strings, all without getting a single scratch, there is no way Luffy is ever treating Sanji like that.


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## Canute87 (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Hax wasn't the reason Sanji lost that fight. Doflamingo tanked (without visible Armament Haki no less) and dodged his attacks with ease, nailed Sanji with his strings, all without getting a single scratch, there is no way Luffy is ever treating Sanji like that.



A man who has considerably more mobility in the air is going to have a clear advantage in the air.


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2014)

@Gohara 
Once u said Admirals aren't top tier u lost the small amount of credibility u had. U don't have to agree with anything but if u can't disprove any of points with feats this convo is over.

Anyway I've asked this multiple times and i will ask again. How is anyone here suppose to damage Marco when he has superior all around stats (haki, durability, endurance, and physical strength).

Laws slashes wont work, Ace has no haki, and Zorro has no combat haki feats.


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2014)

Oopse double post

Edit.


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## Extravlad (Sep 17, 2014)

Marco blitz Law easily.
Then he's gonna have a harder time at beating Zoro/Ace but it shouldn't be impossible.

Marco wins high diff.


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## Gohara (Sep 17, 2014)

@ killfox.

-Well, you're more than welcome to prove that they are top tier (by my definition- so in other words on par with the Yonkou).  If you can I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  If you can't, then I maintain my belief here.

-That's not really how burden of proof works, though.  The one making the assertion assumes the burden of proof.  You've shown some feats, yes, but your overall argument and points involves quite a bit of assuming.  I have no particular problem with you assuming some things, but that prevents your argument and points from being factual.



Stαrkiller said:


> So, the strongest weapons of Marine HQ, which itself is one of the "Three Great Powers", as well as possessing the most powerful Logias shown so far, aren't top tier? I find that extremely unlikely. Even though you obviously don't think they're as strong as the Emperors, regarding them as anything but top tier is laughable. You aren't mentioned as one of the final obstacles to being Pirate King if you're not top tier.



-They're the strongest/ultimate force of the marines, which doesn't necessarily mean they're the strongest individuals.  If we're talking about strongest overall, I believe that is the Fleet Admiral and Garp (pre time skip).  The Gorosei and Kong are possibilities as well if we include the World Government's forces specifically.  Either way, it's Marine HQ as a whole that is one of the three great powers.  That includes the Fleet Admiral, Garp (pre time skip), dozens of Vice Admirals, and many other marines.  The Shichibukai are also one of the three great powers.  Yet, I don't think every Shichibukai is top tier.  In fact, I don't think any Shichibukai with the possible exception of Mihawk is top tier.

-I would actually say the Darkness Fruit is the most powerful Logia Fruit we've seen so far, but it's true that they still possess three of some of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series that we've seen so far.

-They weren't necessarily stated to be the final obstacles.  Chinjao just mentioned them as some of the obstacles, and the reason they were mentioned is likely because they are the ones known to us.  I'm sure we'll see characters of a similar level later on in the series who we don't already know, but Oda's not going to tell us about them yet.

To be fair, a lot of this also has to do with how we define top tier.  To me, top tier= the absolute strongest characters in the series.  Dragon, the Yonkou, the Fleet Admiral, and maybe Kong and the Gorosei are who I consider to be top tier.  I consider the top Shichibukai/some of the top Yonkou Commanders/the Admirals to be high tier.  The reactions the Admirals have gotten have generally not been close to the reactions the Yonkou have gotten, leading me to believe the former group isn't in the same league as the latter group.


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2014)

Before I address your argument I ask this. If you consider admirals and yonkou 1st mates "high tier"then what do u consider Law Ace and Zorro? Mid tier?


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## savior2005 (Sep 17, 2014)

killfox said:


> @Gohara
> Once u said Admirals aren't top tier u lost the small amount of credibility u had. U don't have to agree with anything but if u can't disprove any of points with feats this convo is over.
> 
> Anyway I've asked this multiple times and i will ask again. How is anyone here suppose to damage Marco when he has superior all around stats (haki, durability, endurance, and physical strength).
> ...



dont worry man gohara is like anti admiral. he completly hates them and is the opposite of a fanboy when it comes to them. "admirals arent top tier"?? seriously??


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 17, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> A man who has considerably more mobility in the air is going to have a clear advantage in the air.



DD doesn't have considerably more mobility in the air. If there are no clouds he can't even get up in the air. Sanji can blue walk anywhere he wants in the air.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 17, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> DD doesn't have considerably more mobility in the air. If there are no clouds he can't even get up in the air. Sanji can blue walk anywhere he wants in the air.



But if there r clouds he outclasses Sanji in the air.


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## Gohara (Sep 17, 2014)

killfox said:


> If you consider admirals and yonkou 1st mates "high tier"then what do u consider Law Ace and Zorro? Mid tier?



With high tier having a little more than a decent sized range to me- I would say Luffy is around the middle of high tier and Zoro at the bottom of high tier.  I consider Law to be around the high end of mid tier.

(This goes along with tiers referring to the strong characters- characters no less than Shichibukai/average Vice Admiral level)



savior2005 said:


> dont worry man gohara is like anti admiral. he completly hates them and is the opposite of a fanboy when it comes to them.



That's not true.  

The Admirals are actually some of my favorite characters in the series.  Especially Aokiji.  Aokiji's my 8th favorite character in the series.



savior2005 said:


> "admirals arent top tier"?? seriously??



Not IMO, no.  However, if you prove otherwise, I will happily adjust my views accordingly.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 17, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> But if there r clouds he outclasses Sanji in the air.



Not *considerably *better mobility in the air.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Gohara said:


> With high tier having a little more than a decent sized range to me- I would say Luffy is around the middle of high tier and Zoro at the bottom of high tier.  I consider Law to be around the high end of mid tier.


1.) So according to you, Luffy and Zoro are in the same tier as the Admirals, right?

Zoro got sent down a rabbit hole and was bleeding from Issho's casual attack, and Issho wasn't even trying to kill him. We all saw how other M3 level fighters got stomped by Admirals and opponents who weren't even Admiral level.
2.) Law vs Zoro:

Replace Vergo with Zoro...


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## Gohara (Sep 17, 2014)

In the same tier, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying Zoro is equal to Fujitora.  However, I don't quite view that scene the same way you do.  While it told me Fujitora is stronger than Zoro, the latter held his own enough to make me think the latter's not far below the former's level.

If I were to replace Vergo with Zoro- it's true that I can see Law defeating Zoro if Zoro fights Sanji and Smoker first as well as intentionally takes the attack due to underestimating Law.  I believe Zoro is stronger than Vergo as well.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Gohara said:


> In the same tier





Gohara said:


> but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm saying Zoro is equal to Fujitora.  However, I don't quite view that scene the same way you do.





Gohara said:


> While it told me Fujitora is stronger than Zoro, the latter held his own enough to make me think the latter's not far below the former's level.


1.) Nothing really happened when they met again, it was similar to Croc (who was a living outlier at Marineford) vs Mihawk: clash. The end.
2.) If Issho could make Zoro bleed when he's not even trying to kill him, he'd get turned into a pancake if Issho went all out.
3.) Issho was able to fight Sabo (who is far stronger than Zoro) and gained the edge without even going all (when his full power is restricted no less) out or even getting a scratch.


Gohara said:


> If I were to replace Vergo with Zoro- it's true that I can see Law defeating Zoro if Zoro fights Sanji and Smoker first as well as intentionally takes the attack due to underestimating Law.


- Ignores that Law had been getting the tar beaten out of him
- Ignores that Law had his heart squeezed repeatedly
- Ignores that Vergo was still in fairly good condition and put up FBH (which is better than any Haki feat Zoro has shown) for the first time, yet not only Law was still able to outspeed him, his Haki was good enough to bypass Vergo's. Hm...


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## Canute87 (Sep 17, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> DD doesn't have considerably more mobility in the air. *If there are no clouds he can't even get up in the air.* Sanji can blue walk anywhere he wants in the air.



Well guess what clouds were there, Which meant that he had aerial advantage.


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## Luke (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> 3.) Issho was able to fight Sabo (who is far stronger than Zoro) and gained the edge without even going all (when his full power is restricted no less) out or even getting a scratch.



I agree with your argument here, but where does it say that Fujitora was restricted against Sabo?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Luke said:


> I agree with your argument here, but where does it say that Fujitora was restricted against Sabo?


Bird Cage, it stopped Issho from using his meteors, and Issho is likely holding his full power back not only to avoid damage to Dressrosa and its citizens, but so that he could prolong his fight with Sabo so he has an excuse as well for the WG as to why he did not help Doflamingo when he was fighting Luffy and Law.


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## Luke (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Bird Cage, it stopped Issho from using his meteors, and Issho is likely holding his full power back not only to avoid damage to Dressrosa and its citizens, but so that he could prolong his fight with Sabo so he has an excuse as well for the WG as to why he did not help Doflamingo when he was fighting Luffy and Law.



Right, I forgot about that.


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## Gohara (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> 1.) Nothing really happened when they met again, it was similar to Croc (who was a living outlier at Marineford) vs Mihawk: clash. The end.
> 2.) If Issho could make Zoro bleed when he's not even trying to kill him, he'd get turned into a pancake if Issho went all out.
> 3.) Issho was able to fight Sabo (who is far stronger than Zoro) and gained the edge without even going all (when his full power is restricted no less) out or even getting a scratch.



-We didn't see either of them use all of their techniques.  So I don't think it really means much that Fujitora wasn't going all out.

-I agree that Sabo is stronger than Zoro, but I respectfully disagree that he is far stronger than him.  Neither Sabo nor Fujitora suffered notable damage, and we don't know that either of them used more of their own power than the other did.  It was a pretty even confrontation.



Issho D Tea said:


> - Ignores that Law had been getting the tar beaten out of him
> - Ignores that Law had his heart squeezed repeatedly
> - Ignores that Vergo was still in fairly good condition and put up FBH (which is better than any Haki feat Zoro has shown) for the first time, yet not only Law was still able to outspeed him, his Haki was good enough to bypass Vergo's.



-By Vergo, yes.

-We can't rightfully compare Zoro's and Vergo's Haki to one another.  Zoro has yet to go all out post time skip.

-I'm still accounting for Vergo squeezing Law's heart a couple times before Smoker arrived.  My apologies for the confusion.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -We didn't see either of them use all of their techniques.  So I don't think it really means much that Fujitora wasn't going all out.
> 
> Neither Sabo nor Fujitora suffered notable damage, and we don't know that either of them used more of their own power than the other did.  It was a pretty even confrontation.


If Issho can gain the edge without getting a scratch (while Sabo does have injuries), and he's the one restricted, that's just sad.


Gohara said:


> -I agree that Sabo is stronger than Zoro, but I respectfully disagree that he is far stronger than him.


Sabo has far better feats than Zoro, he just acquired a DF that has more destructive power than Zoro, he fodderized a VA (who is more or less on the same level as the M3) with his bare hands, and he could clash evenly with Issho (who had to use his powers) until Issho gained the edge. How is it not painfully obvious Sabo is on another level compared to Zoro? 


Gohara said:


> -By Vergo, yes.
> 
> -I'm still accounting for Vergo squeezing Law's heart a couple times before Smoker arrived.  My apologies for the confusion.


You didn't account shit.


Gohara said:


> -We can't rightfully compare Zoro's and Vergo's Haki to one another.  Zoro has yet to go all out post time skip.


Doesn't matter. Vergo's Haki feats > Zoro's Haki feats, and Law could still slice clean through Vergo, so if you want to say Zoro can resist Law's slashes, it's on you to prove it. Sorry. Law > Zoro until Oda shows otherwise (which will likely remain that way until the EoS or perhaps for the rest of the series ).


----------



## Gohara (Sep 18, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> If Issho can gain the edge without getting a scratch (while Sabo does have injuries), and he's the one restricted, that's just sad.



Sabo wasn't bleeding or anything, if I remember correctly.

Again, we don't know that Sabo used any more of his own power than Fujitora did his.



Issho D Tea said:


> Sabo has far better feats than Zoro, he just acquired a DF that has more destructive power than Zoro, he fodderized a VA (who is more or less on the same level as the M3) with his bare hands, and he could clash evenly with Issho (who had to use his powers) until Issho gained the edge. How is it not painfully obvious Sabo is on another level compared to Zoro?



-I can't think of any versus feats Sabo has that are far superior to Zoro's.

-I respectfully disagree that Bastille is close to the league of any of the Monster Trio.

-Zoro held his own against Fujitora enough to where I wouldn't say Sabo fighting evenly with Fujitora in a mostly off paneled fight makes it clear that Sabo is far stronger than Zoro.  I'm not saying Zoro is on Sabo's level, but I wouldn't say he's clearly well below his league altogether.



Issho D Tea said:


> Doesn't matter. Vergo's Haki feats > Zoro's Haki feats, and Law could still slice clean through Vergo, so if you want to say Zoro can resist Law's slashes, it's on you to prove it. Sorry. Law > Zoro until Oda shows otherwise



-That doesn't really tell us anything, since Zoro has yet to have a full challenging one on one fight, much less go all out.

-I'm not asserting that Zoro is stronger than Law.  I estimate him to be, but I realize that could be wrong.  My reason for estimating that is simply because I believe the difference between Luffy and Zoro to be smaller than the difference I believe there to be between Luffy and Law.  Since I'm merely stating this as an opinion, the burden of proof isn't on me.  However, if you want to assert that Law is stronger than Zoro, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he is.  If you just want to state that's your opinion, that's fine.  I respect your views even if we disagree on the matter.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 18, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Sabo wasn't bleeding or anything, if I remember correctly.



You can't read, so I'm not really surprised.


Gohara said:


> Again, we don't know that Sabo used any more of his own power than Fujitora did his.


The whole city was on fire from all of Sabo's attacks, whereas we barely saw anything from Issho, and Sabo was worried and frustrated about not knowing what Issho was up to, while Issho showed no concern. And once again, it was Issho who was restricted, not Sabo, yet it was Issho who had the edge.


Gohara said:


> -I can't think of any versus feats Sabo has that are far superior to Zoro's.


- I literally just gave them to you.
- You say you can't think of any feats.
- 


Gohara said:


> -Zoro held his own against Fujitora enough


Here's what happened: clash. The end. We already saw what happens when Issho actually does fight, it ends up with Zoro in a hole in the ground.


Gohara said:


> to where I wouldn't say Sabo fighting evenly with Fujitora in a mostly off paneled fight makes it clear that Sabo is far stronger than Zoro.  I'm not saying Zoro is on Sabo's level, but I wouldn't say he's clearly well below his league altogether.


Wibbly hobbly herpaderp, good sir. 


Gohara said:


> -That doesn't really tell us anything, since Zoro has yet to have a full challenging one on one fight, much less go all out.


So in other words, you got no proof? Too bad so sad.


Gohara said:


> -I'm not asserting that Zoro is stronger than Law.  I estimate him to be, but I realize that could be wrong.  My reason for estimating that is simply because I believe the difference between Luffy and Zoro to be smaller than the difference I believe there to be between Luffy and Law.


Translation: you put Zoro above Law simply because of your boner for him.


Gohara said:


> Since I'm merely stating this as an opinion, the burden of proof isn't on me.  However, if you want to assert that Law is stronger than Zoro, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he is.


Law's feats and hype shit on Zoro's. I'd list them, but you'd ignore them as usual, so not going to bother.


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## trance (Sep 18, 2014)

Gohara said:


> They're the strongest/ultimate force of the marines, which doesn't necessarily mean they're the strongest individuals.  If we're talking about strongest overall, I believe that is the Fleet Admiral and Garp (pre time skip).  The Gorosei and Kong are possibilities as well if we include the World Government's forces specifically.  Either way, it's Marine HQ as a whole that is one of the three great powers.  That includes the Fleet Admiral, Garp (pre time skip), dozens of Vice Admirals, and many other marines.  The Shichibukai are also one of the three great powers.  Yet, I don't think every Shichibukai is top tier.  In fact, I don't think any Shichibukai with the possible exception of Mihawk is top tier.



My point is that as the highest caliber fighters the Marines have to offer, they should also rank amongst the most powerful beings in the world, i.e., the top tier bracket of strength. Even if they only occupy the lower quartile or something. They were relied _heavily_ upon in the War against Whitebeard, so it's fair to say all three together occupy a rather sizeable portion of their overall battle strength.

Also, Coby aspires to be a Marine Admiral. It's his dream in the same way Luffy aspires to be Pirate King and how Zoro aspires to be WSS. It's an illustrious title that gives off an impression of both fear respect. I don't think it would make sense for him to have Admiral as his ultimate goal if he's still subservient to the Fleet Admiral or Commander-in-Chief in strength. 

Honestly, I see no reason to think the Gorosei and the Fleet Admiral are any stronger than the Admirals, if at all. The former are virtually hype less in regards to strength and latter is more of a strategically inclined position that rallies and leads rather than a frontline fighter. Garp is a bit of an exception, so I won't touch him. 

A quick question. Do you see current Akainu as the Fleet Admiral as being on par with the Emperors? 



> -I would actually say the Darkness Fruit is the most powerful Logia Fruit we've seen so far, but it's true that they still possess three of some of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series that we've seen so far.



Well, I was mostly going by feats. Also, I wouldn't necessarily say the Yami Yami is the most powerful (not right now anyway) but the most mysterious and perhaps the most versatile, since it's very unique amongst Logia and offers some very esoteric abilities. 



> -They weren't necessarily stated to be the final obstacles.  Chinjao just mentioned them as some of the obstacles, and the reason they were mentioned is likely because they are the ones known to us.  I'm sure we'll see characters of a similar level later on in the series who we don't already know, but Oda's not going to tell us about them yet.



Yonko *and* Marine Admirals. I just think it makes sense that the strongest marines are more or less on par with the strongest pirates. It helps with the balance of power between them Oda is trying to establish.



> To be fair, a lot of this also has to do with how we define top tier.  To me, top tier= the absolute strongest characters in the series.  Dragon, the Yonkou, the Fleet Admiral, and maybe Kong and the Gorosei are who I consider to be top tier.  I consider the top Shichibukai/some of the top Yonkou Commanders/the Admirals to be high tier.  The reactions the Admirals have gotten have generally not been close to the reactions the Yonkou have gotten, leading me to believe the former group isn't in the same league as the latter group.



Well, to be fair, Roger and the legends of the old generation are a notch above the Emperors just as you speculate the Emperors to be a notch above the Admirals, so doesn't contradict your definition of "top tier" if your so called "top tiers" aren't the absolute strongest in the series?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 18, 2014)

If Gohara bases strength levels based on reactions, what reactions have people had about the Elders whenever they're mentioned? Clover had no problem mouthing off to them.


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## trance (Sep 18, 2014)

That's the longest post I've typed in weeks. I can't be doing this all the time.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 18, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Well guess what clouds were there, Which meant that he had aerial advantage.



I never argued he didn't have an advantage, i said DD doesn't have *considerably *more mobility in the air. DD's air mobility advantage wasn't even a factor on why he beat Sanji. There's also no evidence which suggests DD having mobility advantage in the air whether there be clouds or not. But there is a scenario in which *Sanji* has the advantage, and thats if there's no clouds, which was why i brought it up.


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## killfox (Sep 18, 2014)

@Gohara  

The feats everyone (including myself) have presented over ride all of your arguments.  You may have the opinion of a certain characters strength but  when it comes to people who have actually fought on panel, feats are what matters. 

Aside from all your speculation, Law, Zorro and Ace dont have the feats to win  this. 

Law can't cut Marco. Zorro has no haki feats , and neither does ace. 

Until u show me the non existent feats of Zorro Law and Ace having better  (or even comparable)  haki, physical strength, durability,  speed, and or endurance they cant even damage marco.


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## Gohara (Sep 18, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> You can't read, so I'm not really surprised.



From my perspective there are only a couple dirt marks on his face, which are gone in the left panels of the very next page.  Even if on the off chance he had a tad bit of blood on his face, that doesn't necessarily indicate that the fight has gone the way you described.



Issho D Tea said:


> The whole city was on fire from all of Sabo's attacks



If you're referring to chapter 757, we only saw part of the city.



Issho D Tea said:


> whereas we barely saw anything from Issho



We saw him using his gravity powers all the same.



Issho D Tea said:


> Sabo was worried and frustrated about not knowing what Issho was up to, while Issho showed no concern.



I respectfully disagree that Sabo was worried and frustrated.  He was speaking modestly and had a smile on his face for part of the conversation.

He was definitely wondering what Fujitora was up to, but yeah.  Also, Sabo actually got excited when Fujitora used his gravity powers, although he did take them seriously.



Issho D Tea said:


> And once again, it was Issho who was restricted, not Sabo, yet it was Issho who had the edge.



This doesn't necessarily mean that Sabo used more of his own power than what Fujitora used of his.  We didn't see enough of the fight, nor do we know enough about their abilities, to determine who used more of their own power than the other or if they just used around the same amount.



Issho D Tea said:


> I literally just gave them to you.



The only relative comparison we could really make is Sabo vs. Fujitora, but I don't view Fujitora as being far above Zoro's league either.  So, fighting on par with Fujitora doesn't necessarily mean he is far above Zoro's league.



Issho D Tea said:


> Here's what happened: clash. The end. We already saw what happens when Issho actually does fight, it ends up with Zoro in a hole in the ground.



The hole was created by Fujitora's gravity powers.  Zoro was able to hold his own against the technique, and then sent a flying slash at Fujitora.  Fujitora called that flying slash brutal, implying that it was an attack that he takes seriously.  Yet, Zoro also didn't use all of his techniques in that fight.



Issho D Tea said:


> So in other words, you got no proof?



Nope.  As I said, there's no proof one way or the other.  I'm just giving my own personal views.  I don't require you to agree with me, nor do I blame you for having your own personal views.  As I said, even if we disagree on the matter, I still respect your views.



Issho D Tea said:


> Translation: you put Zoro above Law simply because of your boner for him.



Well, it's as I've said, I believe Luffy to be stronger than Law by a bigger amount than I believe Luffy to be stronger than Zoro.  Pre time skip Luffy and Law seemed to be around the same strength.  Luffy was known to have trained constantly, and with one of the biggest legends in the history of One Piece at that.  Law stated/implied they were going to wait around a bit and let the other Supernovas do their thing, and when we first saw him post time skip he was practically on vacation.  Since Luffy has a higher progression rate than anyone else in the series, trained longer than Law did, and trained with a legend I find it very likely that his strength increased by at least a good deal more than what Law's increased by.  Thus, I believe Luffy to be at least around a good deal stronger than Law, if not more.  On the other hand, I view Zoro as being close to Luffy's strength.  Not to the point that they're neck and neck, but to the point that he's only around a decent amount weaker than him.

It's very possible that Law is stronger than Zoro.  So by no means am I intending to imply that Zoro > Law is a fact.  It's just my personal estimation until something clearly shows otherwise.



Issho D Tea said:


> Law's feats and hype shit on Zoro's.



There aren't really any relative comparisons to make that suggests Law is stronger than Zoro.  If anything I actually find Zoro's performance against Pica so far more impressive than Law's performance against Vergo.  However, I'm not going to instantly say that's enough to demonstrate that Zoro > Law.  As I said, it's just my personal estimation until something clearly shows otherwise.



Stαrkiller said:


> My point is that as the highest caliber fighters the Marines have to offer, they should also rank amongst the most powerful beings in the world, i.e., the top tier bracket of strength. Even if they only occupy the lower quartile or something. They were relied _heavily_ upon in the War against Whitebeard, so it's fair to say all three together occupy a rather sizeable portion of their overall battle strength.





Stαrkiller said:


> Yonko *and* Marine Admirals. I just think it makes sense that the strongest marines are more or less on par with the strongest pirates. It helps with the balance of power between them Oda is trying to establish.



The way I see it is that they are among the highest in the marines, but not that they are the highest.  I believe that is the Fleet Admiral and, pre time skip, Garp.  Since the World Government also has other high level forces, I don't think the marines are required to have multiple Yonkou level fighters in their organization alone.

I also think that if the Admirals were on par with the Yonkou, they would both be getting the same reactions as the Yonkou have and that they wouldn't all three be required to participate in a war against just one Yonkou.  If we assume that the Admirals are around the level of a Yonkou, we can essentially say that 5 Yonkou level fighters on the marines side were present a the Marineford War.  Yet, Garp implied that they would have a ton of trouble, if not outright couldn't handle one Yonkou and old Rayleigh at the same time.  I find it hard to believe that five Yonkou would have so much trouble against one Yonkou and old Rayleigh.

If you go by the World Government forces as a whole, I see it like this:

Yonkou level- Gorosei (potentially), Kong, Fleet Admiral, and Garp (pre time skip).

Top Yonkou Division Commanders- Mihawk (may be a bit above this level), Admirals, Doflamingo, and Hancock.

Mid to low Yonkou Division Commanders- Other Shichibukai, Pica, Vergo, Diamante, Trebol, arguably some other members of the Donquixote Pirates, and the strongest Vice Admirals (such as Smoker and Sentoumaru- who was probably made a Vice Admiral during the time skip).

So I think the World Government are equipped enough.  I don't think they have to rely solely or even mostly on the three Admirals.

I can understand if you disagree with this and interpret everything differently, but I wouldn't say all of that is particularly unreasonable unless I'm missing some information that clearly proves otherwise.  I'm also open to the possibility that my interpretation turns out to be wrong (I have no particular issue with the idea of Admirals being stronger than I believe them to be).



Stαrkiller said:


> Also, Coby aspires to be a Marine Admiral. It's his dream in the same way Luffy aspires to be Pirate King and how Zoro aspires to be WSS. It's an illustrious title that gives off an impression of both fear respect. I don't think it would make sense for him to have Admiral as his ultimate goal if he's still subservient to the Fleet Admiral or Commander-in-Chief in strength.



Good point, but this doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  It's very possible that being an Admiral would be both prestigious and enough.  Not to mention he already lacked confidence to the point that he was embarrassed to say he could become an Admiral, so it's possible that an even bigger goal was just outside of the realm of possibility to him.

In other words, this reason isn't bad, but the reasoning I listed still convinces me even more.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 18, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Honestly, I see no reason to think the Gorosei and the Fleet Admiral are any stronger than the Admirals, if at all. The former are virtually hype less in regards to strength and latter is more of a strategically inclined position that rallies and leads rather than a frontline fighter. Garp is a bit of an exception, so I won't touch him.



The Gorosei I can mostly see going either way.  I do think they are going to be as strong as I mentioned, because they're a mysterious bunch who seem to be or at some point have been fighters.  If Oda follows the general Shonen format in that regard, it stands to reason that he's saving them for later because they are the strongest.  However, it's possible that he's not following said format, and they really are Admiral level or below.

As for Sengoku, I just feel like he's been treated with more respect so far.  Doflamingo stopped what he was doing for Sengoku, but he laughs in the face of and insults Admirals.  Whitebeard showed some level of respect to Sengoku, but was calling the Admirals little brats and telling Akainu to go light birthday cakes.  Shanks stopped Akainu's attack without much visible effort, but didn't say a word to him and yet showed respect towards Sengoku.

While it's possible all this respect is shown towards Sengoku because of his age, I get the feeling that his position in the older generation makes it likely that he really is that strong.  Especially when you add to it that he was able to stop a blood lusted Garp from moving (in his normal form at that) and that he's ranked higher (which, again, in Shonen usually- but not always- equals stronger).  Sengoku and Garp also took down Shiki by themselves, who was said to be a rival to Roger and Whitebeard.  All three Admirals damaged old/sick Whitebeard at some point, but it still took more than that to defeat him.  Most of these reasons are reasons that could be interpreted differently, and thus it doesn't serve as proof that Sengoku is stronger, but that is how I've interpreted said reasons.

I think part of the reason Sengoku wasn't shown fighting much is because Oda intended for the older generation to pass the torch to the newer generation.  Thus it makes sense that the younger generation would get the spotlight in that regard.

Having said all that, you would be correct in saying that there is no factual reason that the Gorosei and Sengoku _have_ to be stronger than the Admirals.  I don't have a problem with anyone who disagrees with my views here.



Stαrkiller said:


> Do you see current Akainu as the Fleet Admiral as being on par with the Emperors?



If he got stronger during the time skip, which I do think he did, then probably at least on par with Big Mam and maybe Kaidou.  He might still grow a bit stronger between now and when he fights Luffy, but yeah.



Stαrkiller said:


> Well, to be fair, Roger and the legends of the old generation are a notch above the Emperors just as you speculate the Emperors to be a notch above the Admirals, so doesn't contradict your definition of "top tier" if your so called "top tiers" aren't the absolute strongest in the series?



Well I agree that Roger and prime Whitebeard are stronger than the others, but I don't think they're above their league altogether.  I think Big Mam, for instance, may be around the bottom of top tier while Roger and prime Whitebeard are at the top of it.



killfox said:


> The feats everyone (including myself) have presented over ride all of your arguments.



If you mean Marco's feats, you didn't really list any that clearly demonstrated my views on the matter to incorrect.  Same with any other feats really.



killfox said:


> You may have the opinion of a certain characters strength but  when it comes to people who have actually fought on panel, feats are what matters



The feats aren't really conclusive enough to make a determination.  As someone else pointed out, if we're going to say that then we'd have to say feats suggest that many characters are stronger than Kaidou.


----------



## trance (Sep 18, 2014)

I can't be doing these TL;DRs all the time. This is likely to be my last response because I lack the attention span to write another. 



Gohara said:


> The way I see it is that they are among the highest in the marines, but not that they are the highest.  I believe that is the Fleet Admiral and, pre time skip, Garp.  Since the World Government also has other high level forces, I don't think the marines are required to have multiple Yonkou level fighters in their organization alone.



But so far, none have been as prevalent as the Marines and the Seven Warlords, of which, the three Admirals have been portrayed as *the* best they have to offer, possibly bar someone like Garp.



> I also think that if the Admirals were on par with the Yonkou, they would both be getting the same reactions as the Yonkou have and that they wouldn't all three be required to participate in a war against just one Yonkou.  If we assume that the Admirals are around the level of a Yonkou, we can essentially say that 5 Yonkou level fighters on the marines side were present a the Marineford War.  Yet, Garp implied that they would have a ton of trouble, if not outright couldn't handle one Yonkou and old Rayleigh at the same time.  I find it hard to believe that five Yonkou would have so much trouble against one Yonkou and old Rayleigh.



Concerning Rayleigh. I don't truly think Garp was referring to Rayleigh in the condition he was in; a drunken and extremely rusty old man. I think he was referring to him mostly in his prime form. It would have been very unlikely Garp had ever seen Rayleigh since Roger died, since the latter effectively retired. So, that leaves us with his prime form as a point of reference, which makes more sense, since I can easily see Rayleigh at his best being as strong, or stronger than Whitebeard in his old age. 

About Whitebeard. From his introduction, he was hyped as the single strongest pirate alive and the most dangerous threat to the stability of the world. Considering his title of "World's Strongest Man", which people like Sengoku and Garp still firmly believed, and wielding the most powerful Paramecia, which can level islands and move landmasses with mere hand gestures, I think this hype was validated quite well.

If the World Government have a plethora of other fighters on the level of the Admirals, then why all three? Especially considering they risked _nearly_ their entire military population and resources against one Emperor and his crew? Seemingly, this didn't take into account his allies. This is something I simply can't envision them doing against the others. 

Now, he was rivals with the other Emperors for an unspecified number of years, so we can assume they're at least on his general level. I can mostly agree with that. However, I see no reason to think they're as strong, or, stronger than him. 



> Good point, but this doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  It's very possible that being an Admiral would be both prestigious and enough.  Not to mention he already lacked confidence to the point that he was embarrassed to say he could become an Admiral, so it's possible that an even bigger goal was just outside of the realm of possibility to him.



Considering their roles as the "Greatest Military Powers" and being the *sole* reason why the Tenryubito are so infamously feared and allowed to do what they want under most circumstances, it stands to reason that an Admiral is *the* cream of the crop amongst the Marines, which validates Coby's dream for wanting to be one in the first place; i.e. to be as strong as he can be.



Gohara said:


> As for Sengoku, I just feel like he's been treated with more respect so far.  Doflamingo stopped what he was doing for Sengoku, but he laughs in the face of and insults Admirals.  Whitebeard showed some level of respect to Sengoku, but was calling the Admirals little brats and telling Akainu to go light birthday cakes.  Shanks stopped Akainu's attack without much visible effort, but didn't say a word to him and yet showed respect towards Sengoku.
> 
> While it's possible all this respect is shown towards Sengoku because of his age, I get the feeling that his position in the older generation makes it likely that he really is that strong.  Especially when you add to it that he was able to stop a blood lusted Garp from moving (in his normal form at that) and that he's ranked higher (which, again, in Shonen usually- but not always- equals stronger).  Sengoku and Garp also took down Shiki by themselves, who was said to be a rival to Roger and Whitebeard.  All three Admirals damaged old/sick Whitebeard at some point, but it still took more than that to defeat him.  Most of these reasons are reasons that could be interpreted differently, and thus it doesn't serve as proof that Sengoku is stronger, but that is how I've interpreted said reasons.



Well, Whitebeard even called Shanks a brat or something along those lines. From his interaction with Luffy, his respect has to be earned and no matter what prestigious position you are or how powerful you are, you aren't going to receive it unless it's rightfully earned.



> If he got stronger during the time skip, which I do think he did, then probably at least on par with Big Mam and maybe Kaidou.  He might still grow a bit stronger between now and when he fights Luffy, but yeah.



Well, at least we agree there. 



> Well I agree that Roger and prime Whitebeard are stronger than the others, but I don't think they're above their league altogether.  I think Big Mam, for instance, may be around the bottom of top tier while Roger and prime Whitebeard are at the top of it.



Well, I was mostly poking fun at your definition of "top tier". 

I'd like to think that that Roger and prime Whitebeard are at the top of top tier, the Emperors/Admirals being in the middle and old Whitebeard being somewhere in between those two.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 19, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> But so far, none have been as prevalent as the Marines and the Seven Warlords, of which, the three Admirals have been portrayed as *the* best they have to offer, possibly bar someone like Garp.



Well certainly the Admirals have had the most activity, but I think a lot of that has to do with the level of cooperation of the Shichibukai and Sengoku being the commander of the marines, which leaves him doing a lot of delegating and less going out there to do it himself.

Personally I don't think the Admirals have been portrayed in the exact sense that you describe, but how we interpret portrayal is largely subjective.  So, I think we might just have to agree to disagree on that until we get some sort of official proof.



Stαrkiller said:


> Concerning Rayleigh. I don't truly think Garp was referring to Rayleigh in the condition he was in; a drunken and extremely rusty old man. I think he was referring to him mostly in his prime form. It would have been very unlikely Garp had ever seen Rayleigh since Roger died, since the latter effectively retired. So, that leaves us with his prime form as a point of reference, which makes more sense, since I can easily see Rayleigh at his best being as strong, or stronger than Whitebeard in his old age.



That's a good point and indeed a possibility, but even then I would still say it leads me to believe that the Admirals are not in the same league/tier as the Yonkou.



Stαrkiller said:


> About Whitebeard. From his introduction, he was hyped as the single strongest pirate alive and the most dangerous threat to the stability of the world. Considering his title of "World's Strongest Man", which people like Sengoku and Garp still firmly believed, and wielding the most powerful Paramecia, which can level islands and move landmasses with mere hand gestures, I think this hype was validated quite well.



While it is just a guess of mine, I still believe that Shanks could be stronger than old Whitebeard, and that the title of World's Strongest Man was from his prime (plus as you mentioned about Rayleigh- verification plays a factor).  I believe Oda could use that reason to hype up Whitebeard while being able to save Shanks for later.  I have more reasoning than just that, but I've already explained why earlier in the thread and since it doesn't have much to do with this specific debate I'll just leave it at that for now.



Stαrkiller said:


> If the World Government have a plethora of other fighters on the level of the Admirals, then why all three? Especially considering they risked _nearly_ their entire military population and resources against one Emperor and his crew? Seemingly, this didn't take into account his allies. This is something I simply can't envision them doing against the others.



Well a lot of the ones I mentioned weren't present, and some of the ones that were weren't as active in the war.  The Gorosei (who are maybes) and Kong weren't present, and Sengoku and Garp didn't participate as much as the Admirals did.

I'm sure Whitebeard's threat level had a lot to do with it as well.



Stαrkiller said:


> Considering their roles as the "Greatest Military Powers" and being the *sole* reason why the Tenryubito are so infamously feared and allowed to do what they want under most circumstances, it stands to reason that an Admiral is *the* cream of the crop amongst the Marines, which validates Coby's dream for wanting to be one in the first place; i.e. to be as strong as he can be.



Well, as I said before, the Fleet Admiral seems to delegate more so than go out and do things themselves.  So I think the Admirals are just the main go to for the Fleet Admiral, who has to stay to maintain direction.  Plus, I've personally never gotten the impression that the Admirals are the sole reason the Celestial Dragons are feared, but rather just what the World Government is willing to do to protect them.  As we've seen with Cipher Pol, they're also sent out to accommodate Celestial Dragons (or at least those of similar status).



Stαrkiller said:


> Well, Whitebeard even called Shanks a brat or something along those lines. From his interaction with Luffy, his respect has to be earned and no matter what prestigious position you are or how powerful you are, you aren't going to receive it unless it's rightfully earned.



True, he did call him something similar, but he showed respect for his power.

I'm sure both power and actions can earn him respect.  He knew Luffy had a lot of potential, but at the time saw him as weak.  However, despite how weak Luffy was compared to the high/top tier characters participating in the Marineford War, he respected his actions.



Stαrkiller said:


> Well, I was mostly poking fun at your definition of "top tier".



Ah.  Well, it is difficult to use tiers when it comes to One Piece, because I usually split characters of the same rank up into different tiers.  Like in Bleach I split the Captains up into low tier Captain level, mid tier Captain level, high tier Captain level, top tier Captain level, etc..  In One Piece most characters of the same rank are too close in power to really split them up into tiers.  



Stαrkiller said:


> I'd like to think that that Roger and prime Whitebeard are at the top of top tier, the Emperors/Admirals being in the middle and old Whitebeard being somewhere in between those two.



Other than the Admirals, that's pretty close to how I see it.

I see it as:

Bottom of top tier- Big Mam and old Garp (possibly).

Middle of top tier- Kaidou and prime Sengoku (possibly).

Between middle and top of top tier- Old/Sick Whitebeard, prime Garp (possibly), and Kong (possibly).  I believe Shanks is around this area at minimum.

Top of top tier- Roger, prime Whitebeard, and Shanks (just a guess- although unless he shows otherwise I probably place him below those two overall).


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## trance (Sep 19, 2014)

Fuck it. I'm bored. 



Gohara said:


> Well certainly the Admirals have had the most activity, but I think a lot of that has to do with the level of cooperation of the Shichibukai and Sengoku being the commander of the marines, which leaves him doing a lot of delegating and less going out there to do it himself.



As I said, the Fleet Admiral position has never portrayed as one based on strength. They're the leader of every Marine, true enough but having a higher rank doesn't always equate to greater power. 



> While it is just a guess of mine, I still believe that Shanks could be stronger than old Whitebeard, and that the title of World's Strongest Man was from his prime (plus as you mentioned about Rayleigh- verification plays a factor).  I believe Oda could use that reason to hype up Whitebeard while being able to save Shanks for later.  I have more reasoning than just that, but I've already explained why earlier in the thread and since it doesn't have much to do with this specific debate I'll just leave it at that for now.



I'm just saying that more points to him being the "World's Strongest Man" even in his old age especially since that's how he's been hyped and portrayed.



> I'm sure Whitebeard's threat level had a lot to do with it as well.



Exactly. It's because it was Whitebeard that Sengoku rallied so much together. I can't see him doing the same against the other Emperors. 



> Plus, I've personally never gotten the impression that the Admirals are the sole reason the Celestial Dragons are feared, but rather just what the World Government is willing to do to protect them.



When that Tenryubito washed up on Fishman Island, it was because an Admiral would have such a hard time reaching Fishman Island that the citizens thought heavily about killing him. 



> As we've seen with Cipher Pol, they're also sent out to accommodate Celestial Dragons (or at least those of similar status).



CP0 are a bit of an enigma. I won't really touch on them til we get more info.



> Top of top tier- Roger, prime Whitebeard, and Shanks (just a guess- although unless he shows otherwise I probably place him below those two overall).



I'm sorry but the notion of Shanks being in the same league as his captain and Whitebeard in his strongest form is pretty far-fetched. He'd be around old Whitebeard's level but that's far removed from Whitebeard at his best.

And with that, I'm done.


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## Gohara (Sep 19, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> As I said, the Fleet Admiral position has never portrayed as one based on strength. They're the leader of every Marine, true enough but having a higher rank doesn't always equate to greater power.



I would say it's a little iffy.  I feel like Sengoku being so respected and rank in Shonen usually (but not always) having a lot to do with power, that it is that way, but as I've mentioned before I'm open to the possibility that such could be proven wrong later on.



Stαrkiller said:


> Exactly. It's because it was Whitebeard that Sengoku rallied so much together. I can't see him doing the same against the other Emperors.



I personally think he would, but I'll just leave it at that for now.



Stαrkiller said:


> When that Tenryubito washed up on Fishman Island, it was because an Admiral would have such a hard time reaching Fishman Island that the citizens thought heavily about killing him.



Maybe, but again the Fleet Admiral doesn't seem to be sent to deal with that sort of stuff.  So an Admiral would be more likely to be sent, and out of the people that likely would be sent they probably are the strongest.



Stαrkiller said:


> I'm sorry but the notion of Shanks being in the same league as his captain and Whitebeard in his strongest form is pretty far-fetched.



I respectfully disagree.  I agree that it would be odd for him to be in that league if he were still a member of the Roger Pirates, but now he's grown to be the Captain of his own Yonkou crew, and I view him as the leader of the current generation.  However, I do see it as a decent possibility that I could be wrong about that guess, and that he is indeed only around as strong as old Whitebeard.


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## killfox (Sep 19, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If you mean Marco's feats, you didn't really list any that clearly demonstrated my views on the matter to incorrect.  Same with any other feats really.


 Im not really concerned with your views. What I posted were feats from Marco that are far superior to what Luffy has  done. Or are u denying that? Weather or not u   "view" Luffy  at another level is none of my concern. Based on FEATS Luffy looses, and that's been my argument from the start.



Gohara said:


> The feats aren't really conclusive enough to make a determination.  As someone else pointed out, if we're going to say that then we'd have to say feats suggest that many characters are stronger than Kaidou.


Allow me to quote myself. "You may have the opinion of a certain characters
strength *but when it comes to people who have actually
fought on panel, feats are what matters * "

With that said I have no idea why your bringing up Kaido.


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## Gohara (Sep 19, 2014)

Part of your interpretation of those feats involves your interpretation of how strong Admirals are, which makes your overall view on those feats subjective.  I'm not saying you can't be right, because you can be, but there's no full fledged proof either way.

Luffy has yet to go all out on panel.  If we're going to exclude characters who have yet to fight on panel, then using the same reasoning it doesn't really make sense not to exclude characters who have fought on panel, but not enough to make an assertion one way or the other.

Nonetheless, even if we disagree, I still respect your views on the matter.


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