# KCM Naruto VS EMS Sasuke



## Raiken (Dec 18, 2014)

*Intel:*
Their respective knowledge *before* this point:


*Restrictions:*
Naruto: Sage Mode. Bijuu Mode
Both: Summoning Jutsu

Details:
Naruto VS Sasuke during the 10 Tails Revival Arc.

Naruto is restricted from using Natural Energy / Sage Chakra.
In addition he is restricted from using Kurama for additional Chakra, Advanced KCM and Bijuu Mode.

Both are restricted from Summoning Jutsu.

How does this fight go down?


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## Blu-ray (Dec 18, 2014)

Hmm? He did cover Naruto's BM with PS after he lost Naruto's chakra though. All he'd have to do is go into that and take a swing. Besides, isn't the Susano'o in that panel the same size as the one Sasuke used anyway?

Anyway for this matchup Naruto obviously wins. Clones spam, and have each of them hurl some Rasenshuriken. If that ain't enough to bust through, what with Sasuke guarding with Enton, it's still still enough for a diversion while the main body makes a supersized Rasenshuriken. The level of Susano'o in that panel isn't taking all of that. 

Sasuke could track and hit Juubito, so he doesn't need to worry about not being able to follow this Naruto or being incapable of hitting him, but I question him killing Naruto before that level of defense is breached with all the clones running around.


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2014)

Naruto wins this 

 - with no legged susanoo or PS here, means that sasukes offense is not doing shit, when naruto can easily evade everything he throws at him, and gang bangs him with multiple clones here 

 - sasukes susanoo variants here dont have the durability to withstand narutos attacks at all, when naruto can use his KB to fire off FRS or COFRS to eradicate sasuke and his susanoo completely, 

 - engaging naruto at CQC is much much worse, when sasuke is still physically far below narutos speed, and with clones on the agenda, just means that he gets wrecked


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

Uh, people. Read the OP.



> The most powerful Susano'o he can use in this thread is a Standard Sized* Perfect Susano'o*



Don't know what retarded nonsense OP is going on about with this "Standard Sized PS" fanfic, but Sasuke has Perfect Susanoo in it's entirety. Standard Sized PS is the same PS that covered BSM Naruto.

So Sasuke one shots Naruto. Even if I follow OP's nonsense conditions, any PS no matter how small is enough to stomp KCM Naruto.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Naruto wins this
> 
> - with no legged susanoo or PS here, means that sasukes offense is not doing shit, when naruto can easily evade everything he throws at him, and gang bangs him with multiple clones here
> 
> ...



This. Naruto wins.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

If sasuke has any legged form of susano naruto losses handily


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## Raiken (Dec 19, 2014)

I'll try and reword the OP so people can understand better.

Susano'os size varies on the amount of Chakra input into it.
Susano'o generally does have a minimal size in it's complete body forms outside of simple ribcage and limb manifestations.
This minimal size of a complete upper half or whole body is first seen through MS Itachi before he died and MS Sasuke at the Kage Summit, with just the upper half.
It was shown by Madara, if you were powerful enough, you could increase the size of Susano'o substantially, to be the size of a Bijuu or even bigger.
There have been 3 primary increments in scaling, in relation to Susano'o size:

*Standard Sized:*
Standard Sized Upper Half at Level 2:

Standard Sized Upper Half at Level 3:

Standard Sized Upper Half at Level 4:

Standard Sized Full Body at Level 3:

*Bijuu / Boss Summon Sized:*
Bijuu Sized Full Body at Level 3:

*Bijuu+ Sized "100% Kurama Size":*
Bijuu+ Sized Upper Half at Level 4:

Bijuu+ Sized Full Body at Level 4:

Bijuu+ Sized Full Body at Level 5:


They're the 4 main things to that can be mixed and varied around with Susano'o.

*Level:* Ribcage - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
Which can really be narrowed down into: Ribcage - Body - Armour "1 Level at Ribcage and 2 in Body and 2 in Armour."

*Type:* Upper Half or Full Body

*Size:* Due to Chakra Input. "Standard - Bijuu - Bijuu+"

*Weapons:* "Varies between Users

What I was suggesting in the OP, is that Sasuke, at max, can create a Susano'o of:

*Level:* 5
*Type:* Full Body
*Size:* Standard


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 19, 2014)

With 13 bunshins, chakra arms and FRS', I don't see Sasuke winning here. 

So, you're saying Pre-hagoromo EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susano? The legged one that chopped the branch down, or are you talking about a Susano exactly the size of Madara's V3? Either way, they aren't much different in size, I'd say Sasuke's PS is roughly 20% bigger than Madara's V3, which doesn't account for much.

It is much faster and more powerful though. Won't help him, too many bunshins and too much power for KCM Naruto who isn't restricted from using COFRS in KCM (weaker than the one he used in SM).


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## adeshina365 (Dec 20, 2014)

Never stop fighting the good fight.


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## Raiken (Dec 28, 2014)

I've revised to OP, removed Sasuke's restriction.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 28, 2014)

Sasuke wins. KCM Naruto was completely helpless against Juubito while Sasuke was actually reacting to Juubito's moves and protected Naruto.

 Minato even stated that it was good that KCM Naruto was keeping up with Sasuke which could imply they were on par with each other and that was only with Sasuke using Partial Susanoo Ribcage.


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## Raiken (Dec 28, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke wins. KCM Naruto was completely helpless against Juubito while Sasuke was actually reacting to Juubito's moves and protected Naruto.
> 
> Minato even stated that it was good that KCM Naruto was keeping up with Sasuke which could imply they were on par with each other and that was only with Sasuke using Partial Susanoo Ribcage.



Sure Sasuke wasn;t using his higher levels of Susano'o.
But Naruto wasn't using his higher levels of  Rasengan and FRS. Nor "which is the main thing" was he using any Clones, plus Naruto had been fighting a whole war and Obito/Madara/Juubi for a lot longer than Sasuke had.


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## ARGUS (Dec 28, 2014)

Cryorex said:


> I've revised to OP, removed Sasuke's restriction.



with the restrictions being removed on Sasuke, means that he wins mid diff 

 - his PS doesnt have to be anywhere near Madaras to be able to eradicate someone like KCM  naruto completely, especially when he doesnt have anywhere near the mountain level durability to be able to tank his slashes, as he bisects naruto with PS 

 - his PS can also tank all of narutos attacks and simply allow sasuke to prep a stronger kirin to eradicate naruto, 

 - with sasuke being able to track even someone like juubitos speed means that blitzing is clearly not happening, as sasuke gets the charka ratio correct for any FRS and negates iit with an Enton variant, thus removing the possibility of his PS being busted


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 28, 2014)

Cryorex said:


> Sure Sasuke wasn;t using his higher levels of Susano'o.
> But Naruto wasn't using his higher levels of  Rasengan and FRS. Nor "which is the main thing" was he using any Clones, plus Naruto had been fighting a whole war and Obito/Madara/Juubi for a lot longer than Sasuke had.



 This is also true though honestly, what his his clones going to do against Sasuke with Aoda and Susanoo w/ Amaterasu Sword that can slice through the Juubi's defenses like butter which means he'll slice through FRS like butter.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 28, 2014)

EMS Sasuke can't use the stabilized version of Perfect Susano'o, so KCM Naruto defeats him after a difficult fight.


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

13 chou oodama rasenshuriken spam ends it...


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> 13 chou oodama rasenshuriken spam ends it...



 With a mobile V3 Susanoo that's on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar's speed?

 I highly doubt that.


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> With a mobile V3 Susanoo that's on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar's speed?
> 
> I highly doubt that.



Kurama avatar isnt as fast as naruto himself...and naruto can redirect the giant rasen shurikens...not to mention that sussano was upgraded by senjutsu and kyuubi chakra..sasuke might survive for a bit but eventually he gets overwhelmed


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Kurama avatar isnt as fast as naruto himself...and naruto can redirect the giant rasen shurikens...not to mention that sussano was upgraded by senjutsu and kyuubi chakra..sasuke might survive for a bit but eventually he gets overwhelmed



 He has V4 Susanoo and Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo which should be well above.

 Kurama Avatar is still fast enough to the point where Juubito wasn't completely dodging him.

 And no, I highly doubt Kyuubi chakra was upgrading his Susanoo or it would've been implied. Tobirama at least made a statement that hinted towards Sasuke getting stronger when his Susanoo utilized Jugo's cursed seal which implies a boost in power, but we got no such statement with the Kyuubi cloak. 

 Even then, KCM Naruto is far below BSM Naruto and judging by Sasuke's performance against Juubito, he shouldn't be too overwhelmed against KCM Naruto.


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> He has V4 Susanoo and Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo which should be well above.
> 
> Kurama Avatar is still fast enough to the point where Juubito wasn't completely dodging him.
> 
> ...



ok ill ask you a simple question who lasts longer in an endurace battle kcm naruto or sasuke?


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## ARGUS (Dec 29, 2014)

endurance is only a factor when naruto has the means to stalemate sasukes full power, which he clearly doesnt

even if sasukes PS is not as strong as madaras, its still a stabilised PS, meaning that one slash alone would have enough power to eradicate all the clones and disrupt narutos jutsus formation 

as naruto also gets sliced in half right afterwards, his KCM form has no mountain level durability, and his speed is also not helping him from evading slashes that have a mountain wide AOE


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## sabre320 (Dec 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> endurance is only a factor when naruto has the means to stalemate sasukes full power, which he clearly doesnt
> 
> even if sasukes PS is not as strong as madaras, its still a stabilised PS, meaning that one slash alone would have enough power to eradicate all the clones and disrupt narutos jutsus formation
> 
> as naruto also gets sliced in half right afterwards, his KCM form has no mountain level durability, and his speed is also not helping him from evading slashes that have a mountain wide AOE



I dont think stabilized perfect sussano is allowed here..sasukes bijuusized sussano while used by his own chakra could only slash a shinju root..


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> I dont think stabilized perfect sussano is allowed here..sasukes bijuusized sussano while used by his own chakra could only slash a shinju root..



 Link removed

 One that was much bigger than V3 Susanoo that is the size of a Bijuu.


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## ARGUS (Dec 29, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> I dont think stabilized perfect sussano is allowed here..sasukes bijuusized sussano while used by his own chakra could only slash a shinju root..



its allowed as the OP removed all restrictions for sasuke, which is 

without PS,however,  sasuke would lose mid diff here, as a single COFRS would obliterate his susanoo here,
his legged susanoo, would also be much weaker than what he formed in canon, seeing how he wont have the aid of yin/yang kyuubis chakra and juugos senjutsu to boost it up


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> its allowed as the OP removed all restrictions for sasuke, which is
> 
> without PS,however,  sasuke would lose mid diff here, as a single COFRS would obliterate his susanoo here,
> his legged susanoo, would also be much weaker than what he formed in canon, seeing how he wont have the aid of yin/yang kyuubis chakra and juugos senjutsu to boost it up



 Implying that Kyuubi's chakra had any affect on Sasuke's Susanoo at all. If the Kyuubi cloak surrounded the Susanoo, you may have had a point there, but I see no implication to suggest that it boosted Susanoo as opposed to Jugo's Cursed Seal which actually covered Sasuke's Susanoo and boosted his strength which was implied by Tobirama. We got no such implication towards the Kyuubi shroud that only surrounded Sasuke, but not his Susanoo.


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## ARGUS (Dec 29, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Implying that Kyuubi's chakra had any affect on Sasuke's Susanoo at all. If the Kyuubi cloak surrounded the Susanoo, you may have had a point there, but I see no implication to suggest that it boosted Susanoo as opposed to Jugo's Cursed Seal which actually covered Sasuke's Susanoo and boosted his strength which was implied by Tobirama. We got no such implication towards the Kyuubi shroud that only surrounded Sasuke, but not his Susanoo.



Susanoos power depends on the quality and strength of the users chakra, 
Kyuubis chakra and senjutsu + Sasukes own chakra >>>> Sasukes own chakra, 
Yang Kyuubi chakra alone was stated to have boosted the jutsus power by 3x at the very least 

Sasuke recieved the cloak that had Yin and Yang, meaning that his susanoo was boosted by atleast 6x, 

now add the jutsus senjutsu boost, annd his bijuu sized susanoo was over 6x stronger than a regular V3 that he would form, 

so yeah, without the cloak,and PS,  sasuke stands no chance against naruto


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## Raiken (Dec 30, 2014)

PS is allowed, but it has to be taken with a grain of salt, as EMS Sasuke's PS is feat-less.
Sure he likely does have it, but I doubt it was anywhere near as powerful as what Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke displayed. Some hypothesising and debate is necessary.
Sasuke did use a form of PS, but the only time he used it was to combine with Naruto's BM.

Susano'o comes in two layers, the Body and the Armour, Sasuke simply used the Stabilized Armour Layer, otherwise known as Perfect Susano'o, and combined it with Naruto's Bijuu Mode. Except it's usually combined with the Susano'o Body, instead the Kyuubi acted as the Body.
On that note, we've never seen any EMS user use PS, without combining to the Kyuubi. It's only been once they gained the Rinnegan or Rikudou Chakra that they used it.

But anyway, what exactly was EMS Sasuke capable of without Kyuubi Chakra influencing him?

The first time he used a much larger Susano'o was to fight JJ Obito alongside Naruto; which was shown to be comparable to a Bijuu in size, which is a lot larger than all the times he's used Susano'o in the past. During of which, Sasuke was under the influence of the most powerful version of Kyuubi Chakra Boost. In which a weaker version boosted the *SIZE* of Kakashi's maximum Kamui by 3x.

Obviously we have to think here, Sasuke's Base Chakra >> Kakashi's Base Chakra.
So something that boosted Kakashi 3x, wouldn't necessarily have the same impact on someone like Sasuke.
However, while Sasuke's Chakra >> Kakashi's Chakra.
The Kyuubi Chakra Sasuke received >> the Kyuubi Chakra Kakashi received.

Kakashi stated that the shroud Naruto dished out to the Alliance was much more powerful than what Kurama had given him earlier, which boosted his maximum Kamui by 3x.
Kakashi also stated that Immortals Arc Base Naruto had 4x more Chakra than himself. It's more than likely Naruto's Base Chakra Cap has increased since then, so lets say Base Naruto has around 6x more Chakra now "just an estimate", and Sasuke is probably somewhere in the middle at that point in the series, probably around 3x more than Kakashi, 4x max.
I would say the Chakra Shroud compared to the initial boost is "at least" twice as powerful. The Yin/Yang Chakra Shroud being even more powerful than that.

Lets use 4x Kakashi's Chakra for Sasuke and a 2x difference between the Initial Boost and the Yang Shroud.

Kakashi: 10
Sasuke: 40

The initial Kyuubi Chakra boost on Kakashi was +20 Chakra, as it was a 3x Boost.
So what was a 3x boost for Kakashi, would only be a 1.5x boost for Sasuke.

Kakashi: 30
Sasuke: 60

Say the boost gets twice as powerful with the Yang Shroud, meaning +40

Kakashi: 50
Sasuke: 80

Meaning the Yang Shroud would have been a 2x boost for Sasuke, and it's understandable the power was doubled again with both Yang and Yin Kyuubi's Chakra; meaning +80.

Sasuke Chakra would have gone from: 40 - 120.

So since the Kyuubi Chakra has been proven to boost the *power* of Jutsu, not just your stamina to last longer.
*Sasuke could have made his Susano'o roughly 3x larger and more powerful due to his Kyuubi Chakra Cloak; compared to his normal Maximum.*

And to be fair, if that Bijuu Sized V3 Susano'o was 3x smaller, it would probably be roughly similar to this:

Then 3x Larger:

I believe what Madara displayed against the Bijuu is what I believe Sasuke would have been capable of without the Kyuubi Chakra Boost.
Except he'd be able to make it go V4, perhaps V5 "Perfect", if he wished to.

Also, you cannot argue this is bullshit because Sasuke was able to create a Susano'o the size of the Kyuubi to combine with it.
As 1, he only needed enough Chakra to create the Stabilized Armour Layer, he didn't need to create the Body as the Kyuubi acted as it.
But that's not even the main point.
As 2, you need Senjutsu to harm a Juubi Jinchuuriki, the Susano'o Sword was part of Sasuke's Chakra, it was BSM Naruto who had the Senjutsu. Meaning that the two Chakra's were indeed combined together, as mentioned at the top.


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