# tsukuyomi, did sasuke break it or not?



## crisler (Jan 21, 2012)

pretty old question but i guess it's not really answered properly.

we have two comments about itachi's tsukuyomi/amaterasu being broken/avoided by sasuke.

1. zetsu implied that sasuke defeated itachi's genjutsu with his comparison of novice/kunai and expert/stone. but he also said, sasuke's powers were stronger than what itachi expected.

a. itachi used maximum level tsukuyomi and let sasuke go
b. itachi used maximum level tsukuyomi and sasuke broke it
c. itachi used modified (lowered) level tsukuyomi and still let sasuke go
d. itachi used modified (lowered) level tsukuyomi, but sasuke was able to break that one. 


2-1 sasuke shouting at madara that itachi used tsukuyomi and amatereasu to kill him. madara said if itachi wanted to, he could have...

a. itachi didn't catch sasuke faster on amaterasu on purpose
b. sasuke was fast enough to avoid amaterasu for a short time until he got caught


2-2 itachi putting off amaterasu flame...

a. itachi didn't know sasuke had oro's jutsu, and let him go
b. itachi knew sasuke had oro's jutsu, and still let him go (probably to pretend he didn't know? or to pretend he was aiming for sasuke's eyes)


what do you think really were the case?


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## T-Bag (Jan 21, 2012)

he broke it legit. itachi commented on how strong he's really gotten. he was supposed to prove himself and he did. and its no surprise, sasuke's sharingan has been said to be top notch


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## BlinkST (Jan 21, 2012)

Databook said he broke it. 



Good enough for me.


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## Taijukage (Jan 21, 2012)

itachi kept saying how sauske cant beat a ms user with just sharingan. he wanted sasuke to be as strong as possible by the most brutal and sadistic means possible. so yeah it wouldnt help his cause if he simply went easy on him all that time. if sasuke failed to break it and simply died, itachi would be like "oh well i tried".


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## Frawstbite (Jan 21, 2012)

He broke it, Itachi didn't fake surprise.



Blinx-182 said:


> Databook said he broke it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good enough for me.



Well, case closed I guess...Most of us already knew this, nice find.


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## T-Bag (Jan 21, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> Databook said he broke it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good enough for me.



well technically he did break it, whether itachi was going easy or not. but i wouldnt use it that as an argument to prove someone wrong who says otherwise.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 21, 2012)

he broke it imo, just like he did avoid amaterasu, and he did push itachi to a point where he had to use susanoo to save himself.

you guys need to keep in mind one thing: 

- itachi cant make amaterasu fire burn less.
- itachi cant make a mid tsukuyomi, tsukuyomi is tsukuyomi.
- itachi couldnt avoid kirin in any other way, he used susanoo because he needed to.

did he go easy? yes. Now everything that sasuke managed to do, was legit. Everything that he did facing itachi, including push him enough to make him save his life with susanoo even without having a MS, was legit.


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## Kaname Kuran (Jan 21, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> he broke it imo, just like he did avoid amaterasu, and he did push itachi to a point where he had to use susanoo to save himself.
> 
> you guys need to keep in mind one thing:
> 
> ...



Well actually regarding the Tsukuyomi he can't lessen the power but he can lessen the damage if you get what I'm saying because it seems that he can change the intensity of the jutsu since he can control how long it seems/what is happening during the jutsu so technically he can make a "mid" Tsukuyomi.

But what I have to ask is how can Sasuke break something that happens so fast in reality? I mean in his mind it seems like X amount of time due to Itachi's control but in reality it happens in a moment, I guess I'm nit picking


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## LOGH Fanboy (Jan 21, 2012)

My impression is that Sasuke's sharingan copied Deidara's counter-genjutsu technique that he had been training to use against Itachi himself ever since his humiliating defeat when they first met.

Using this, he was able to break Tsukiyomi after a few seconds of being under the spell. Those seconds in the outside world could have been minutes inside his mind, it's not clear how long it "felt" like to Sasuke because Tsukiyomi works in a world where the flow of time is slower than the outside world.

However, in those seconds or minutes Itachi was essentially trying to scare Sasuke by reaching slowly for his eyes. He could have crucified him like Kakashi and done some mental damage right away instead of slowly reaching for him, but obviously his goal was never to win, it was to push his little brother to get stronger. 

The whole fight was planned to buff Sasuke, who had a better chance of eventually accomplishing Itachi's goals than a man with ninja-tuberculosis. 

So yes, Sasuke broke it for sure, but it's worth remembering that Itachi could have used it in a more malicious way. Does that mean Sasuke wouldn't have been able to break it if Itachi was more aggressive with the technique? No one can say for sure.

Just like he could have let the Amaterasu flames that were burning Sasuke to continue to burn instead of injuring himself to turn them off, Itachi tempered the bite of his best moves so that Sasuke could counter them and learn from the experience. 

It may be going off on a tangent, but I think Itachi did this to prepare Sasuke to kill Madara/Tobi someday. Itachi clearly viewed Madara/Tobi as the greatest threat to Konoha all along.


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## Torpedo Titz (Jan 21, 2012)

Tsukiyomi was the _perfect_ way to drain Sasuke of his chakra and either willingly or unwillingly use Orochimaru's chakra pool from exhaustion, just like how Kakashi was after enduring Tsukiyomi. There is simply no way Itachi would purposely break one of the most efficient means of freeing his cherised brother of Orochimaru. Plus, after an even longer Tsukiyomi than that which actually happened in the manga, Itachi may have died prematurely before the Taijutsu clash, Shuriken exchange, Katon duel and game-ending Ninjutsu such as Kirin and Susano'o. It's likely Itachi would have needed the Sword of Totsuka to seal Orochimaru nonetheless. 

Simply, Itachi could have freed Sasuke of Orochimaru, died as the villainous figure he wanted to and made Sasuke the hero of the Uchiha clan all without purposely breaking Tsukiyomi. However, Sasuke's sharingan was strong enough to break the Genjutsu and credit to Itachi, he had Urahara-like planning for any scenario.


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## DemonDurai (Jan 21, 2012)

Sasuke broke it the manga said so Itachi agrees and Zetsu agrees. This thread purpose is just to overate  Itachi more and have Itachi wanking time.

DD


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## Jeαnne (Jan 21, 2012)

Kawaii said:


> Well actually regarding the Tsukuyomi he can't lessen the power but he can lessen the damage if you get what I'm saying because it seems that he can change the intensity of the jutsu since he can control how long it seems/what is happening during the jutsu so technically he can make a "mid" Tsukuyomi.
> 
> But what I have to ask is how can Sasuke break something that happens so fast in reality? I mean in his mind it seems like X amount of time due to Itachi's control but in reality it happens in a moment, I guess I'm nit picking


tsukuyomi is the genjutsu, itachi can only control the amount of time.

whatever he does to the person in tsukuyomi, sure, the person will feel all and all, so it will cause damage and exaustion, but remember that it used to knock sasuke out and cause brain damage even if itachi didnt touch him inside it.

basically, tsukuyomi is a bad dream, the difference is if you are capable of waking up and not get into a coma or not.


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## Kiss (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes he broke it. Itachi said so himself and even the DB.


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## InFam0us (Jan 21, 2012)

If sasuke hadn't broken it, Itachi wouldn't have felt the side effects of getting his jitsu broken out of.

Sasuke broke it.


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## GKY (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes he did. It just wasn't full power.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jan 21, 2012)

GKY said:


> Yes he did. It just wasn't full power.



We don't know how strong it was (24-hour strength, 72-hour strength etc) but it's a given that Sasuke _did _break it. Kishi even showed that Itachi's vision was effected as a result besides the usual unclear vision he showed only a Chapter or two prior to it.

Chapter 386, Itachi's vision (bottom right) _before _Tsukiyomi.


Chapter 389, Itachi's vision (bottom centre) after _Tsukiyomi _failed.


His vision was crap anyway, but it's a wonder he even partially dodged those Fuuma Shuriken with double vision. So, yeah, Sasuke had to have broken the _Tsukiyomi_.


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## Itachisaywat (Jan 21, 2012)

Well Zetsu did say Itachi should have been able to dodge it regardless after the fight, though it could have been on the illness than him not trying.


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## Mister (Jan 21, 2012)

He broke it. Though for some reason a lot of pro-Itachi guys seem to claim he didn't, despite the evidence we have.


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## Itachisaywat (Jan 21, 2012)

I think he truly broke it, Sasuke's genjutsu isn't crap like everybody says


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## MCHammerdad (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes, he broke it. 

But you guys are looking at it the wrong way, what was Itach's objective in the fight? 
To die by Sasuke's hand.

Would he have cast a jutsu on him that he thought would kill him? 

Ofcourse not. He cast tsukuyomi knowing full well that Sasuke would break it. 

This gives us 2 choices, 1: Itachi thinks Sasuke is much much better at Genjutsu than him: (which we all know is false).

or 2: He was pulling punches, and since we know what he did the rest of the fight, including with amaterasu. 

I think the answer should be clear enough, Sasuke lives through that fight because Itachi wished it.


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## DemonDurai (Jan 21, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Yes, he broke it.
> 
> But you guys are looking at it the wrong way, what was Itach's objective in the fight?
> To die by Sasuke's hand.
> ...



Sasuke was just more skilled and had greater  potential at using the Sharingan than Itachi. The manga said so.. you cant denied that. <at no point did I said Sasuke was stronger>

Itachi himself said to Kakashi that you have to have the bloodline and Sharingan to break out of the Genjutsu. Its not like there was not hint at an possible at breaking out. If it can be done then I see no reason for Sasuke not to do it. What is the point of kishi letting Itachi mentioning it or Zetsu confirming it.


DD


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## Torpedo Titz (Jan 21, 2012)

People forget Zetsu's stone and shuriken analogy.


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## MCHammerdad (Jan 21, 2012)

DemonDurai said:


> Sasuke was just more skilled and had greater  potential at using the Sharingan than Itachi. The manga said so.. you cant denied that. <at no point did I said Sasuke was stronger>
> 
> 
> 
> DD




I see what you saying, however i don't agree. 

If sasuke was as skilled as your suggesting. This genjutsu, would not have been nearly as effective. 

We have seen Itachi take genjutsu from people with 5 in the databook and not even flinch, even turning the genjutsu around completely. 

Sasuke is not as skilled. 

To to make Zetsu's comment valid you would need:

Sasuke being much more skilled at genjutsu than Itachi, which we know is false. 

Add that on top of the other disadvantage as having a inferior doujutsu and the likelihood drops even further. 

Through in the fact that Itachi was obviously pulling punches with Amaterasu, and Susanno. I don't see why Tsukuyomi should be the exception. 



> Itachi himself said to Kakashi that you have to have the bloodline and Sharingan to break out of the Genjutsu. Its not like there was not hint at an possible at breaking out. If it can be done then I see no reason for Sasuke not to do it. What is the point of kishi letting Itachi mentioning it or Zetsu confirming it.



Yes, Sasuke was always going to break out of tsukuyomi. 

But that doesn't mean it has to be without Itachi wanting him to. Hell Itachi said all this. 

At the time Itachi said this... He wanted Sasuke to kill him. 

This could all be a lie to get Kakashi to groom Sasuke believing he was the only one who could defeat him. 

Besides, all the Zetsu confirmed whatever was just a plot device to make the whole "Itachi was a good guy thing" not as foreseeable.


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## Chainwave (Jan 21, 2012)

He never broke it.
Everything that's happened since that chapter.
is Itachi's Tsukoyomi.


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## Chibason (Jan 21, 2012)

Of course he did...


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## Skywalker (Jan 21, 2012)

This argument again?

He broke it, but on Itachi's whim.


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## Reddan (Jan 21, 2012)

Sasuke broke it, but Itachi could have used a more powerful version. Tobi claims he only gave Sasuke what he could handle. So I imagine a stonger Tsukiyomi would have finished Sasuke at that point.


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## DemonDurai (Jan 21, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> I see what you saying, however i don't agree.
> 
> If sasuke was as skilled as your suggesting. This genjutsu, would not have been nearly as effective.
> 
> ...



your mostly opinion seem to base on  what Itachi said and completely disregarding what other characters said. Add to that  Itachi  statement is only correct  if it does not contradict your point by disregarding some of the things he said. At least that how it come across

At no point did I mention that Sasuke was more skill at Genjutsu. I do not believe he is before Eternal MS nor do I believe he is now until I see more evidence when he is using the EMS. 

It clearly state that Sasuke has greater potential and skill by even the likes of Oro in the manga a few times. 

Itachi winning at Genjutsu five times does not mean  Sasuke cannot break out of it. My original point was Sasuke capabilities of  breaking out of Itachi Genjutsu not Sasuke been better at it which is something different.

It also clearly show  and said that Sasuke surpass  Itachi using the ameratsu in that same fight. Taken into account that what was said of Sasuke before.

"*This could all be a lie to get Kakashi to groom Sasuke believing he was the only one who could defeat him*. "

Could be.. kakashi did not even show any resistant and literally just roll-over ready to die. Sasuke who possess the requirements  to be able to stop  tsukuyomi did fight it back and broke out of it it seem. 

DD


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## Mdri (Jan 21, 2012)

Kiss said:


> Yes he broke it. Itachi said so himself and even the DB.



and even Zetsu


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## SaiST (Jan 21, 2012)

Kawaii said:


> But what I have to ask is how can Sasuke break something that happens so fast in reality? I mean in his mind it seems like X amount of time due to Itachi's control but in reality it happens in a moment, I guess I'm nit picking


It's probably because it's a Genjutsu that ensnares it's victim through direct eye contact that the Sharingan has been said to be the only means of dispelling it; with it's ability to break down the properties of techniques, see their workings at a snail's pace, and cast Genjutsu of it's own.



MCHammerdad said:


> He cast tsukuyomi knowing full well that Sasuke would break it.


My sentiments exactly... Though I don't know if I see eye to eye with you on all of the specific details of your argument as a whole. I don't think it's as black 'n white as Sasuke possessing greater skill with Genjutsu, or Itachi _"weakening"_ his Tsukuyomi to the point where Sasuke was simply allowed to break it(though admittedly, the latter *is* likely).

Orochimaru could sense power in Sasuke's eyes greater than Itachi's back in Chapter 49. Tobi took notice of Sasuke's greater potential in Chapter 363. It would be odd if Itachi wasn't also aware of this.

I believe he cast Tsukuyomi fully confident that his little brother had grown powerful enough to dispel it, which could have been part of the reason he was feeling him out with Genjutsu at the offset of their bout to begin with.


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## DemonDurai (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> It's probably because it's a Genjutsu that ensnares it's victim through direct eye contact that the Sharingan has been said to be the only means of dispelling it; with it's ability to break down the properties of techniques, see their workings at a snail's pace, and cast Genjutsu of it's own.
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly... Though I don't know if I see eye to eye with you on all of the specific details of your argument as a whole. I don't think it's as black 'n white as Sasuke possessing greater skill with Genjutsu, or Itachi _"weakening"_ his Tsukuyomi to the point where Sasuke was simply allowed to break it(though admittedly, the latter *is* likely).
> ...



This very notion upset the Itachi fanclub so they simply put it down that they were lying.

DD


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## blackminato (Jan 22, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Yes, he broke it.
> 
> But you guys are looking at it the wrong way, what was Itach's objective in the fight?
> To die by Sasuke's hand.
> ...



Well said my friend. People say that tsukuyomi is tsukuyomi and that you can't weaken it. If that is true then the intensity of the tsukuyomi that put kakashi out of business should have put out little sasuke. That sasuke was 7 years old and after his 24 hour toture he fell on the ground drooling all over and got back up. If all tsukuyomi were the same why didn't young sasuke die?.

Its clear that sasuke broke out of tsukuyomi. But its really obvious that its power was weakened by two factors.
1. Itachis ninja aids
2. Itachi himself. Tobi clearly stated that if itachi wanted to he could have killed him at any point in the fight.
You heard what tobi said. Itachi was definetely holding back for most part but he forced sasuke to deal with it and that's exeactly what he did with the tsukuyomi on sasuke. It wasn't anywhere on the level of intensity as kakashis and even then itachi held back on kakashi. Kakashi stated this. So itachi used tsukuyomi knowing no matter what it would hurt him but forced sasuke to find a solution.


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## BlinkST (Jan 22, 2012)

Tsukuyomi can't be "weakened" or "held back". First of all, the genjutsu's effectiveness as a torture/ traumatization device depends entirely on how well the individual victim responds to it. I.e, the same illusion won't work on everyone. 

Second of all, what makes Tsukuyomi fangerous is the time the victim spends under the illusion. The longer they spend in the illusion, the more fatigued they'll be. However, how long Tsukuyomi can be maintained, is irrelevant if the victim can counter it. Why? Because they'll break the genjutsu, and avoid the suffering, thereby able to continued the battle. However long or short Sasuke can maintain Tsukuyomi for example became irrelevant as soon as Bee broke it. Because Bee was not going to let Sasuke finish what he started and end up knocked out on the floor.

It doesn't matter that Itachi could have tortured Sasuke for 3 hours or 12 days of Christmas. As long as he can be stopped, nothing is going to happen. The only thing he was able to do was gouge Sasuke's eye out, and after that, it was curtains.


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## Reddan (Jan 22, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> Tsukuyomi can't be "weakened" or "held back". First of all, the genjutsu's effectiveness as a torture/ traumatization device depends entirely on how well the individual victim responds to it. I.e, the same illusion won't work on everyone.
> 
> Second of all, what makes Tsukuyomi fangerous is the time the victim spends under the illusion. The longer they spend in the illusion, the more fatigued they'll be. However, how long Tsukuyomi can be maintained, is irrelevant if the victim can counter it. Why? Because they'll break the genjutsu, and avoid the suffering, thereby able to continued the battle. However long or short Sasuke can maintain Tsukuyomi for example became irrelevant as soon as Bee broke it. Because Bee was not going to let Sasuke finish what he started and end up knocked out on the floor.
> 
> It doesn't matter that Itachi could have tortured Sasuke for 3 hours or 12 days of Christmas. As long as he can be stopped, nothing is going to happen. The only thing he was able to do was gouge Sasuke's eye out, and after that, it was curtains.



No Tsukiyomi can be weakened and strengthened. Nor does Itachi even have to alter time in Tsukiyomi. He can do what he likes. He can bind someone try and control them or torture them in the mental world. 

Sasuke questions if Itachi tried to kill him with the MS. Tobi mentions how Itachi only gave him as much as he can handle. Later on Sasuke admits he could not see through Itachi's genjutsu. If he could not see through Itachi's genjutsu then it is unlikely he could have broken the strongest Tsukiyomi.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

There is a glitch I would like to implement here which is concerning this subject.

Do you remember when Itachi first casted Kakashi with Tsukiyomi?
He specifically said that it did not matter that Kakashi only looked at him with his Sharingan eye, because only a person with Sharingan and Uchiha Kekkei Genkai could counter it.
Itachi was able to successfully cast Kakashi under Tsukiyomi despite Kakashi only exposing his Sharingan eye.

Do you then remember a little further in the story when Naruto, Chio, Kakashi and and Sakura where facing Itachi and had to fight him?
Back then Itachi wanted to cast Kakashi under Tsukiyomi again but was not able to do so.
He waited until Kakashi came near him, so that he could look right into his non-Sharingan eye in order to cast him with it, later on it turned out to be a Bunshin though.

That is a story paradoxon in my opinion, why was itachi only able to try and cast Kakashi by attacking his non sharingan eye, when only a few time periods before he was perfectly able to do it with only his Sharingan eye exposed?


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

arednad said:


> Nor does Itachi even have to alter time in Tsukiyomi.


Then it wouldn't be Tsukuyomi... 



Kung Pow said:


> He specifically said that it did not matter that Kakashi only looked at him with his Sharingan eye, because only a person with Sharingan and Uchiha Kekkei Genkai could counter it.


He said that with the Sharingan, some resistance could be made to to the Mangekyou Sharingan. But Tsukuyomi in particular could only be dispelled by a true Sharingan successor.



> _Do you then remember a little further in the story when Naruto, Chio, Kakashi and and Sakura where facing Itachi and had to fight him?
> Back then Itachi wanted to cast Kakashi under Tsukiyomi again but was not able to do so.
> He waited until Kakashi came near him, so that he could look right into his non-Sharingan eye in order to cast him with it, later on it turned out to be a Bunshin though._


Itachi never used Tsukuyomi during that fight(he couldn't, even if he wanted to), and I see no indication that he was aiming for Kakashi's normal eye. Emphasis was placed on his Sharingan, and Itachi's right Sharingan which was parallel to it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 22, 2012)

I think he did.
In the databook, it says Sasuke overcame mangekyou sharingan with his hatred, referencing Tsukiyomi.

It is just that Itachi wasn't using Tsukiyomi to its full putential. He was keeping it realistic. He could you have you know, put Sasuke in more unfavorible circumstances inside Tsukiyomi.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Itachi never used Tsukuyomi during that fight



He absolutley did.
Here is a picture of the bunshin in the tsukuyomi realm.


Itachi casted Kakshi?s bunshin with Tsukuyomi, and specifically tried to target his non sharingan eye as shown below.




SaiST said:


> I see no indication that he was aiming for Kakashi's normal eye. Emphasis was placed on his Sharingan, and Itachi's Sharingan which was parallel to it.



He was specifically aiming for Kakashi?s non sharingan eye.
Itachi did not know that it was Kakshi?s bunshin and that the real Kakashi was still underground, but the bunshin was clearly visible in the tsukuyomi realm, then burning up because it was only a copy.


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> He absolutley did.


_"Don't worry... I won't use the Mangekyou Sharingan... *Or, it would be more correct to say that I can't use it at the moment*."_

And there is no sign of his Mangekyou Sharingan immediately before, after, and even during the Genjutsu[1][2][3].

Man, you guys are so quick to assume that every Genjutsu the Sharingan casts is Tsukuyomi. I bet if Kotoamatsukami had not been named, y'all would be assuming that was Tsukuyomi too. 

Stick to what defines the technique's functionality: the ability to alter the victim's sense of time.



> _Here is a picture of the bunshin in the tsukuyomi realm._


The inverted colors that were commonly demonstrated within Itachi's Tsukuyomi in Part 1 are not a reliable indicator that it is in use. The Genjutsu Sasuke cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan against Killer B also shared this appearance, yet lacked Tsukuyomi's functionality.

Regardless, this was not present in the manga, as you can clearly see in the pages linked above.



> _He was specifically aiming for Kakashi?s non sharingan eye._


You are assuming that is the case due to the position he's left in immediately after Kakashi dodges his attack.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> _"Don't worry... I won't use the Mangekyou Sharingan... *Or, it would be more correct to say that I can't use it at the moment*."_



Well, because Itachi never lies right?



SaiST said:


> And there is no sign of his Mangekyou Sharingan immediately before, after, and even during the Genjutsu[1][2][3].
> 
> Man, you guys are so quick to assume that every Genjutsu the Sharingan casts is Tsukuyomi. I bet if Kotoamatsukami had not been named, y'all would be assuming that was Tsukuyomi too.
> 
> ...



Up to this point the inverted colors are in my opinion very much an indicator for Itachi using Tsukiyomi, because there are clear distinctions between the occasions on which he uses normal Sharingan Genjutsu and when he doesn?t.

He casted Deidara, Naruto, and countless other shinobi with plain normal Genjtusu in which the environmental conditions considering color and physical altitude applied to reality.

*Every* other occasion he was effectively addressing his Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi the colors became inverted and the environmental change in  altitude was present.

And the time he casted Kakashi?s bunshin under the Genjutsu the exact same conditions applied, so I very much think that he was using Tsukuyomi.

And lastly of course Itachi was specifically and intentionally trying to look into Kakashi?s non sharingan eye?
Why else would he have waited, charged at him and then specifically held and forced him into a position in which he could look only into his non sharingan eye, at a very very close distance?

I don?t think there is no doubt about his intentions regarding this matter?

Also when Itachi said that Kakashi was "very skilled to have conceiled himself" he was kind of exeggerating the luck Kakashi had not to have been caught in this Genjutsu in person.
And why would Itachi praise Kakashi for being skilled (passively saying he was lucky)?
Because he knows Tsuki is the only thing he cannot escape.

And the fact that Itachi specifically was seeking to close in distance and did not do anything from far away is another piece in the puzzle.


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> Well, because Itachi never lies right?


And it's clear that he was telling the truth in this case, as we never saw any sign of the Mangekyou Sharingan[1][2][3]. 

You are basing your case soley on these inverted colors—which, again, weren't even present in the manga.



> _*Every* other occasion he was effectively addressing his Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi the colors became inverted and the environmental change in  altitude was present._


With the exception of the Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke, until it was dispelled. And again, Sharingan Genjutsu that have lacked Tsukuyomi's functionality have also shared this appearance, so it's not a reliable indicator that it is being used.



> _And lastly of course Itachi was specifically and intentionally trying to look into Kakashi?s non sharingan eye?
> Why else would he have waited, charged at him and then specifically held and forced him into a position in which he could look only into his non sharingan eye, at a very very close distance?_


Because that's simply the position he was left in after Kakashi dodged his strike. As I said originally, there's no emphasis being placed on Itachi glaring at that eye in particular.

But whatever, it's inconsequential. This claim of Itachi aiming for Kakashi's normal eye is based on a misinterpretation of what Itachi said to Kakashi back in Chapter 142.



> _Also when Itachi said that Kakashi was "very skilled to have conceiled himself" he was kind of exeggerating the luck Kakashi had not to have been caught in this Genjutsu in person._


And here's another one. o_o


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> And it's clear that he was telling the truth in this case, as we never saw any sign of the Mangekyou Sharingan[1][2][3].
> 
> You are basing your case soley on these inverted colors?which, again, weren't even present in the manga.
> 
> ...






You forget that this is a Manga.
The capturing of events is *momentarily*.
Only because in this instant which was the capturing of a moment, that again could have been based on milli seconds, does not show a MS does not mean that it wasn?t present?

As bad of an example as it may be, but in the Anime Itachi?s position was clearly and intentionally induced by him grabbing and dragging Kakashi?s right side and eye towards him.

I think the Manga is showing the exact same thing, just because of it?s  limited force of expression due to momentaneous capturing that is hard to determine.

The inverted colors and altered altitude at least have a higher probability of applying to determine Tsukuyomi use than the contrary.
Itachi can make Tsukuyomi look what ever he wants, but it?s raw and undenatured form has always been shown to involve inverted colors and altered altitude.

The reason why that was only visible after Sasuke had broken through it is because, Itachi by then did not have control over it anymore, hence was not able to effectively make it look like everything is normal to Sasuke, which is what he originally  wanted, and due to this loss of control over Tsukusyomi it gained its typical natural looks of inverted colors.

Of course that is only an assumption though.

Lastly I did not misconcept anything about Itachi telling Kakashi that only an individual with Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan could break through Tsuki.

But the fact that Itachi effectively tried to close in on Kakashi, and look into his non sharingan eye from a very close distance has to mean something.

Why didn?t he try to do anything from a distance?


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> You forget that this is a Manga.
> The capturing of events is *momentarily*.
> Only because in this instant which was the capturing of a moment, that again could have been based on milli seconds, does not show a MS does not mean that it wasn?t present?


It is precisely because this is a manga that something of such significance would have been made clear to us. We have a claim of him being incapable of using the Mangekyou Sharingan, we see no sign of the Mangekyou Sharingan, and yet you are assuming that he's casting Tsukuyomi on Kakashi in this instance due to a particular aspect of it's appearance that it didn't even originally have in the manga.

You are grasping at straws, Kung Pow.



> _Lastly I did not misconcept anything about Itachi telling Kakashi that only an individual with Kekkei Genkai and Sharingan could break through Tsuki._


... I'll just leave this one be. Nevermind.



> _But the fact that Itachi effectively tried to close in on Kakashi, and look into his non sharingan eye from a very close distance has to mean something.
> 
> Why didn?t he try to do anything from a distance?_


I'm assuming you're referring to Itachi's use of Genjutsu in particular.

In which case, it would obviously be because they were all trying their utmost to avoid making eye contact with him, by employing the method Gai usually uses to defend against Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu[1][2].


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 22, 2012)

^

Itachi didn't use Tsukiyomi in that fight.
The genjutsu he used on KAkashi is a regular sharingan genjutsu. There is even a databook entry for it.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> It is precisely because this is a manga that something of such significance would have been made clear to us. We have a claim of him being incapable of using the Mangekyou Sharingan, we see no sign of the Mangekyou Sharingan, and yet you are assuming that he's casting Tsukuyomi on Kakashi in this instance due to a particular aspect of it's appearance that it didn't even originally have in the manga.
> 
> You are grasping at straws, Kung Pow.
> 
> ...



There are two sides.

1.)The inverted colors, altered altitude Genjutsu that was cast upon Kakashi?s bunshin, which strongly suggests the use of Tsukiyomi but not necessarily of course.

2.)The fact that we did not specifically see his MS and Itachi claiming that he couldn?t use it.

The method of not looking into his eyes was quickly made redundant when Itachi casted Naruto into a Genjutsu with his ring.


Another thing that bothered me is that Kakashi was looking at Itachi this whole time with both of his eyes.
He did not even make an effort to at least only observe him with his Sharingan eye.

Was it because he knew that it wouldn?t make a difference because Itachi could cast him under Tsuki either way due to his lack of Uchiha Kekkei Genkai other than Sharingan?

I think it is not clearly determinable if Itachi really used Tsuki or not.
But another relevant defying factor could be that at this point it wasn?t the real Itachi fighting but rather a 50% power copy of him.
The same thing had been done to Kisame which was why Gai was able to beat him.

It was a jutsu that used a fodder host as basis and transferred their abilities, chakra and body into them to a certain extent.
Maybe that is why Itachi said he couldn?t use Mangekyou because it would only work with the original in full power?


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The genjutsu he used on KAkashi is a regular sharingan genjutsu. There is even a databook entry for it.


There's no entry for that particular Genjutsu in the Databook.



Kung Pow said:


> 1.)The inverted colors


Which weren't even present in the manga.



> _altered altitude Genjutsu_


I meant to ask you this earlier, but what exactly are you referring to?



> _2.)The fact that we did not specifically see his MS and Itachi claiming that he couldn?t use it._


Which is key, since we could clearly see what his eyes looked like the moment he made eye contact with Kakashi.



> _I think it is not clearly determinable if Itachi really used Tsuki or not._






> _Maybe that is why Itachi said he couldn?t use Mangekyou because it would only work with the original in full power?_


That was precisely it.

And it was 30% by the way.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> There's no entry for that particular Genjutsu in the Databook.
> 
> 
> Which weren't even present in the manga.



Again that is determined by everybody?s interpretation of the environmental effects shown.
To me personally it looked like they wanted to imply inverted colors.



SaiST said:


> I meant to ask you this earlier, but what exactly are you referring to?


When for example Kakashi was casted under Tsuki the first time, the ground and physical circumstances of the environment changed.

The same thing happened when Itachi casted the bunshin, except the inverted colors and Kakashi being effectively tortured by for example other solid objects such as the last time with the cross, but that was because the bunshin started dispersing before anything could happen.



SaiST said:


> Which is key, since we could clearly see what his eyes looked like the *moment *he made eye contact with Kakashi.



That is what I meant earlier
You cannot possibly know what exact moment it was, since a picture can only provide a momentaneous capturing of a random time period.
A second after that picture showing Itachi looking into Kakashi?s eye, it could have shown him activating MS, but as said it is debatable and not very likely.

And tzzz  right back at you  



SaiST said:


> That was precisely it.
> 
> And it was 30% by the way.



Got you your own point there
But it?s true, most likely it wasn?t Tsuki, I agree


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## Syko (Jan 22, 2012)

Everything that happened in this fight was most likely planned by Itachi, as he planned his death. We also know that he had ninja AIDS, but I believe that if Itachi wanted to, he could have used Tsukuyomi in a way Sasuke would have had pain breaking it.


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> most likely it wasn?t Tsuki, I agree


And my job is done. :I

_* SaiST struts off._


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2012)

crisler said:


> 1. zetsu implied that sasuke defeated itachi's genjutsu with his comparison of novice/kunai and expert/stone. but he also said, sasuke's powers were stronger than what itachi expected.
> 
> a. itachi used maximum level tsukuyomi and let sasuke go
> b. itachi used maximum level tsukuyomi and sasuke broke it
> ...



I'll go with option D. Itachi did not just let Sasuke out. However, he WAS jobbing in that fight. Zetsu said the winner of a Genjutsu struggle depends on the tool (the eyes) and the skill of its user. Itachi had the better tool (Mangekyou Sharingan), and the third databook confirms that he had more skill as well (5 in Genjutsu compared to Sasuke's 4). From this, we can gather that Itachi used a Tsukuyomi that was only just strong enough to push Sasuke to his limits- which is exactly what Tobi said he was trying to do. It was already established that Itachi was incapable of taking Sasuke's life because of the feelings he had for him, so there's no way he was going all-out and just hoping that Sasuke would be okay. That isn't congruent with what we know about Itachi.



> 2-1 sasuke shouting at madara that itachi used tsukuyomi and amatereasu to kill him. madara said if itachi wanted to, he could have...
> 
> *a. itachi didn't catch sasuke faster on amaterasu on purpose*
> b. sasuke was fast enough to avoid amaterasu for a short time until he got caught



A.

Zetsu even stated that Itachi was trying to avoid catching Sasuke's eyes with the flame. Since that wasn't Itachi's real objective, it was most likely a way to give Sasuke a window of escape under the pretense of not wanting to destroy his eyes.



> 2-2 itachi putting off amaterasu flame...
> 
> *a. itachi didn't know sasuke had oro's jutsu, and let him go*
> b. itachi knew sasuke had oro's jutsu, and still let him go (probably to pretend he didn't know? or to pretend he was aiming for sasuke's eyes)



Since Itachi apparently knew about Sasuke absorbing Orochimaru from the start, he probably knew about the special kawarimi. I'm a little iffy on whether or not he knew Sasuke could use it, though.

I'll say A, for now. But it could've easily been B; Itachi knew a lot.



Blinx-182 said:


> Databook said he broke it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good enough for me.



That in no way proves that Itachi wasn't holding back. It just says Sasuke beat that Tsukuyomi, which everyone who has read that fight in the manga already knows is true. But there is ample evidence to suggest that it was not a sincere effort on Itachi's part.


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## BlinkST (Jan 22, 2012)

arednad said:


> Later on Sasuke admits he could not see through Itachi's genjutsu.


Lest you forget, the databook entry contradicted Tobi and didn't say any such thing. Being that it supercedes the manga since it came out after that volume, there's no argument to be made there.


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## KingBoo (Jan 22, 2012)

there is no doubt that sauske beat that move. but the move was done with the intent on not to kill. i will go with D.


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## Ghost (Jan 22, 2012)

Sasuke did break out of the Tsukuyomi, but it wasn't the strongest Itachi is able to do.


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> And my job is done. :I
> 
> _* SaiST struts off._



Pffff I was being polite


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## Bloo (Jan 22, 2012)

He broke it, but only because Itachi allowed him the chance to. If Itachi was going for the kil it would have resulted in Sasuke's death.


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## hitokugutsu (Jan 22, 2012)

Bloo said:


> He broke it, but only because Itachi allowed him the chance to. If Itachi was going for the kil it would have resulted in Sasuke's death.



Basically this. The tuskiyomi Itachi used was not the same he used in earlier fights. Itachi would never use a full powered Tsukiyomi is he intended Sasuke to win. Lack of inverted colors is a sign of this, and we see only see the inverted colors for *one moment* when Sasuke "breaks" Tsuki.

As for Amaterasu; Itachi almost killed him the first time. When the 2 Goukayus are clashing and Itachi pulls out Ama, it consumes Sasuke's goukayu. At this point we see Sasuke being surprised and the black flame being quite huge right in from of Sasuke. And what does Itachi do? *He closes his eye, and puts out Amaterasu*. Sasuke would have never escaped from that first outburst, and Oro's kawarimi also wouldn't have saved him since Sasuke would have been consumed fully by Amaterasu
The second outburst of Ama: Itachi actually waits for Sasuke to start running until he spams it again, and even then he aims for his CS2 wing. Also he knew he had Oro's cells, so he no doubt planned for this kawarimi. He even commented on it after Sasuke used it


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## Sniffers (Jan 22, 2012)

Sasuke broke it, but Itachi wanted it to happen. Whether it was a fully powered Tsukuyomi or not is unknown. On one hand it has been forshadowed that Sasuke would break it so you would expect he would live up to that. On the other hand Tobi did say Itachi was not serious and we had a picture showing of the Tsukuyomi to exemplify this.

In the end we really can't tell...


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## Kung Pow (Jan 22, 2012)

If we just logically thought about this, there really is just one solution.

Itachi had planned to die for the result of Sasuke gaining MS.
What sense would it have made for him not to intentionally let Sasuke break through it?
Of course Itachi let him break through it, what else could he have done?


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## sinjin long (Jan 22, 2012)

the way i see it is this,itachi had already used tsukuyomi twice on sasuke before,sasuke knew that it was almost guaranteed,being that itachi mainly uses genjutsu, that it would be used again,so he trained for 3 years to be able to defeat it. many characters have commented about the power/potential/etc of sasuke's sharingan being greater than even itachi's(orochimaru,tobi,cii,KB?)

itachi himself foreshadowed that sasuke could defeat it vs kakashi

now im not saying that itachi didnt job the rest of the battle,but really if sasuke hadnt been strong enough(itachi true goal all along,to make sasuke strong) then really whats the point?


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## BlinkST (Jan 22, 2012)

WhitefangFlash said:


> Sasuke did break out of the Tsukuyomi, but it wasn't the strongest Itachi is able to do.


Define "strong" in regards to Tsukuyomi.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 22, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Basically this. The tuskiyomi Itachi used was not the same he used in earlier fights. Itachi would never use a full powered Tsukiyomi is he intended Sasuke to win. Lack of inverted colors is a sign of this, and we see only see the inverted colors for *one moment* when Sasuke "breaks" Tsuki.


Granted you are intitled to your opinion, but it has nothing sufficient to support it.

Until you can necessarly prove Tsukuyomi the effects of Tsukuyomi can be minimized at the users whim, your assessment is baseless.

You are they were not the same? However ignore the fact that the two earlier instances of Tsukuyomi weren't identicle either.

Unlike Kakashi, I recall Itachi ever harmer Sasuke within the illusion; however the effects of the user is still the same.......





> As for Amaterasu; Itachi almost killed him the first time. When the 2 Goukayus are clashing and Itachi pulls out Ama, it consumes Sasuke's goukayu. At this point we see Sasuke being surprised and the black flame being quite huge right in from of Sasuke. And what does Itachi do? *He closes his eye, and puts out Amaterasu*. Sasuke would have never escaped from that first outburst, and Oro's kawarimi also wouldn't have saved him since Sasuke would have been consumed fully by Amaterasu
> The second outburst of Ama: Itachi actually waits for Sasuke to start running until he spams it again, and even then he aims for his CS2 wing. Also he knew he had Oro's cells, so he no doubt planned for this kawarimi. He even commented on it after Sasuke used it



I'm affraid your assessment isn't true. Itachi had to fire two shots, as the former was already utilzed to consume Sasuke's Katon.

Link removed

Itachi didn't close his eyes to pause Amaterasu, he closed his eyes to fire another shot.
Link removed

Whether Itachi could have employed a different tactic all together with Amaterasu is debatable, but certainly the nonsense you are speaking isn't plausable and or supported.


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## MCHammerdad (Jan 24, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Granted you are intitled to your opinion, but it has nothing sufficient to support it.
> 
> Until you can necessarly prove Tsukuyomi the effects of Tsukuyomi can be minimized at the users whim, your assessment is baseless.



Since part 1, it has been explained that jutsu is only as powerful as the amount of chakra you pump into it. 

Example: (sasuke's Katon overcame Itachi's due to CS and more chakra)

To think that Itachi can't control the effects of his tsukuyomi even with he told us in plain text that he can control everything.

so in summary.

You: Itachi can't controlt he power of his tsukuyomi.

Itachi: "I can control every aspect of this world, even time itself."



> You are they were not the same? However ignore the fact that the two earlier instances of Tsukuyomi weren't identicle either.



Yes, because Itachi can completely control them. 

If itachi couldn't control the technique like you said, then they would all be identical.



> I'm affraid your assessment isn't true. Itachi had to fire two shots, as the former was already utilzed to consume Sasuke's Katon.



Amaterasu isn't like a pistol shot...

Its like a flame thrower (lol)

You can keep using it (hold down the trigger) for as long as your capable. That itself is the technique "amaterasu", when you close your eye the technique ends, and all thats left is the afterfire. 

Thats why amaterasu flames suck when their not during the technique, they aren't nearly as dangerous. 



> Whether Itachi could have employed a different tactic all together with Amaterasu is debatable, but certainly the nonsense you are speaking isn't plausable and or supported.



I actually think he was pretty damn close to spot on.


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## hitokugutsu (Jan 24, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Granted you are intitled to your opinion, but it has nothing sufficient to support it.
> 
> Until you can necessarly prove Tsukuyomi the effects of Tsukuyomi can be minimized at the users whim, your assessment is baseless.
> 
> ...



Has already been answered. You can have different degrees of mastery over a jutsu. S/T manipulation + inverted colors were one of the key aspects of Tsukiyomi as displayed in the manga. In fact 70+ chapter after Itachi's death, Danzo again mentioned Itachi's mastery over Tsuki and that he could alter S/T

We saw no S/T manipulation, and only once instant of inverted colors (when Sasuke tried to break it). 

I'd say its more obvious Itachi held back en didn't use a full powered Tsuki (as supported by Tobi's story and what we know of the jutsu as displayed)




> I'm affraid your assessment isn't true. Itachi had to fire two shots, as the former was already utilzed to consume Sasuke's Katon.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Hardly. 

In fact the page you posted you can clearly see Itachi closing his eye and Amaterasu disappearing. *Amaterasu doesn't completely disappear after it burns trough something; which means Itachi put it out*

Also We saw Itachi *continiously* spamming Amaterasu to such extent that he was able to set half the Uchiha dome on fire. Which means he didn't have to close his eye to *recharge* as you put it.

Itachi could have finished him back then, had he not closed his eye. Simple as that. Even Oro's special kawarimi wouldn't have Sasuke from a full frontal Amaterasu


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## Addy (Jan 24, 2012)

no, he over come it!!!!!!!!!!! 

yeah, i don't know what the fuck zetsu meant by that


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## principito (Jan 24, 2012)

does it make a fucking difference?

 oh to fanboys who's main concern is if their fav character is superior it would prolly makes a difference


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## Haloman (Jan 24, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Granted you are intitled to your opinion, but it has nothing sufficient to support it.
> 
> Until you can necessarly prove the effects of Tsukiyomi can be minimized at the users whim, your assessment is baseless.



It's been mentioned several times that Itachi was capable of manipulating S/T within Tsukiyomi. This literally means he has control over the degree of illusion used.

Sasuke did break out of the illusion, but Itachi didn't use the strongest possible illusion against him. 



principito said:


> does it make a fucking difference?
> 
> oh to fanboys who's main concern is if their fav character is superior it would prolly makes a difference



I'm not a Sasuke or Itachi fanboy, but you're right. I'm a fanboy of the TRUTH.


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## tgm2x (Jan 24, 2012)

Yes, he did, there is no even a single clue that he didn't


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> Since part 1, it has been explained that jutsu is only as powerful as the amount of chakra you pump into it.


But such hasn't been the case for all Ninjutsu....

Some jutsu's have been static in it's showcasing.

Tsukuyomi is one those showcasing along with a good portion of the Sharingans/Rinnegans abilities.

Chakara absorbtion has always been static.

Amaterasu potency has always been static.

Tsukuyomi potency has always been static.

Totsuka has always been static.

Kumai (apart from skill/aim) has also been static.

SM sense it's debute? Static 

Harashin static.

etc. etc.....

In other words several jutsu's showcased throughout the manga remains static in it's showcasing regardless of intent.

The jutsu in this discussion is what of them, and burden is upon you (who claim something oppose to what's shown in the manga) to provide adequate proof of such.





> Example: (sasuke's Katon overcame Itachi's due to CS and more chakra)


Just like Kakashi's Raikiri/Chidori vs. Sasuke's Raikiri/Chidori however Tsukuyomi doesn't have this same distinguishment. 

It has had the same user on all three occasions and has produce the same EXACT effect in which it was successful.

Given the fact that we were already informed of the possibility: Sasuke could break it 100's of chapters prior, it's awfully hard for you to provide a convincing argument for your point of veiw.



> To think that Itachi can't control the effects of his tsukuyomi even with he told us in plain text that he can control everything.
> 
> so in summary.
> 
> ...


Key word being every aspect of THIS WORLD.... I don't think the mental effects of the victim, which takes place in real world, is satisfactory under the conditions of "This World."

You cannot prove it quantifies as such, as we have a one to one, thus perfect correlation, of the negative effects of Tsukuyomi upon victim. It would be like you suggesting a person has control over the damage of the bullet from his/her gun, after it has hit its target. He/She doesn't, only the area in which the bullet strikes.....

Your evidence doesn't support what you are allocating, which is a control over the POTENCY OF THE JUTSU upon the victim itself.

Itachi can alter the perception of the length, image being displayed, setting etc .etc..... of his illusion, but he cannot alter the mental damage as a result, which again has been static based of the situations in which it has worked. 






> Yes, because Itachi can completely control them.


In HIS WORD..... The effects on the user mind takes place in the REAL WORLD, the mental strain requires REAL WORD MEDICAL ATTENTION, to cure. I believe thus was the main motivation behind Naruto wanting to assist J-Man in seeking out Tsunade.



> If itachi couldn't control the technique like you said, then they would all be identical.


He cannot control the POTENCY of the technique upon the victim, which have all been reduced to a vegitive like state following the technique, except of course Hebi Sasuke because he overcame it, supposidely.





> Amaterasu isn't like a pistol shot...
> 
> Its like a flame thrower (lol)


It isn't like either...

As both would imply it coming from a sorce. However the "Converge upon a focal point" 





> You can keep using it (hold down the trigger) for as long as your capable. That itself is the technique "amaterasu", when you close your eye the technique ends, and all thats left is the afterfire.


No.... you can't.

You much like a gun (which is not automatic) you have to pull the trigger.

Thus is why Sasuke/Itachi have never fired an Amaterasu in spurts.

A person can guide the same flames to the target, but once the flames have reached the target.... A new Amaterasu must be fired.



> Thats why amaterasu flames suck when its not in the technique, they aren't nearly as dangerous.


That is an opinion and not a well thought out one IMO, as Amaterasu potentcy is not just from it's speed, it is from the fact that it is unquechable.

So regardless of the "rate in which the target burns", it has 7 days and nights to get the job done.




> I actually think he was pretty damn close to spot on.


Just because you agree with his notion, doesn't make it any more plausible. 
Most of it is "He could/shoudl have done this logic" in which is never a good argument to make, in a serious discussion. As it cannot be even loosely supported, it's essentially battledome logic.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Has already been answered. You can have different degrees of mastery over a jutsu. S/T manipulation + inverted colors were one of the key aspects of Tsukiyomi as displayed in the manga. In fact 70+ chapter after Itachi's death, Danzo again mentioned Itachi's mastery over Tsuki and that he could alter S/T


S/T jutsu from the same user has remained static among it's user.

However 

We are not talking about Tsukuyomi from different users, we are referring to the same Tsukuyomi from the same and only USER in the manga at this point.

The two previous cases have different illusions, but both recieve identical VEGITIVE states after being exposed to such a jutsu, without a counter.




> We saw no S/T manipulation, and only once instant of inverted colors (when Sasuke tried to break it).


A. Sasuke hasn't been confirmed to be using Tsukuyomi.

B. Sasuke is NOT Itachi, thus doesn't have his potency with such a jutsu.

Tsukuyomi, as in Itachi's Tskukuyomi (the only Tsukuyomi we have) has been static it it's effect against a user.

The only one who wasn't left in a Vegative like state after being exposed to it, was the only person to break it. 



> I'd say its more obvious Itachi held back en didn't use a full powered Tsuki (as supported by Tobi's story and what we know of the jutsu as displayed)


It's really not supported by anything but your own bias.

Tobi's words doesn't specificy a point in time, it doesn't even translate to anything changing from the recent fight, but in fact the results.

Essentially Tobi's words/Zetsu's words implicate to one thing, and one thing only. Itachi would have won, but of course as an Itachi fan you are not satisfied with this.

You ignore the several praises Itachi himself gave to Sasuke, throughout the fight and before. 

He acknowledged Sasuke's strength throughout the entire match.
(I've stopped using excessive lengths to argue my post, as I've got quite a few backlash from it but I no longer give a darn)


Wet Draws
Wet Draws
Wet Draws

Itachi wasn't simply planning on dropping dead before Sasuke, this was his chance to actually see Sasuke's growth(as a big brother should). He went on to comment the difference in Sasuke's character from the last time he saw him until now.

Wet Draws

Even concluded that he was still as noisy as ever.

Wet Draws

So no your assessment isn't supported in fact it is contradicted giving, what Itachi spent the last decade of his life trying to do......... Make Sasuke stronger, of course he gave him "No more than he could handle" however Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu wasn't one of them.

Sasuke clearly spent the last three years training to counter those technics and most certainly Itachi probably took that into account. 








> Hardly.
> 
> In fact the page you posted you can clearly see Itachi closing his eye and Amaterasu disappearing. *Amaterasu doesn't completely disappear after it burns trough something; which means Itachi put it out*


Yea it does based of the description.

"They continue to burn until their targets is completely eradicated"

The target was Sasuke's Katon, not Sasuke.

And besides Amaterasu isn't put out by the user closing their eyes.

Sasuke is proof of that.

They continue to burn until their targets is completely eradicated

Itachi clearly closed his eyes too do one thing, and Sasuke new thus is why he started "Running"








> Also We saw Itachi *continiously* spamming Amaterasu to such extent that he was able to set half the Uchiha dome on fire. Which means he didn't have to close his eye to *recharge* as you put it.


He was clearly guiding Amaterasu.

Running
(Notice Itachi's eyes changing positon and following Sasuke much like the flames are good sir)

How else could Amaterasu give chase to a Sasuke whose changing direction?

Unless Sasuke managed to dodge Amaterasu three times? Then why is Raikage feat such a big deal then?





> Itachi could have finished him back then, had he not closed his eye. Simple as that. Even Oro's special kawarimi wouldn't have Sasuke from a full frontal Amaterasu


You are entitled to your own personal belief, just keep in mind that the manga doesn't support your assessment in any shape form or fashion. In fact the several links I provided showcases the opposite.


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## Yuna (Jan 24, 2012)

He broke it, but I think Itachi choreographed that part as well. Not as in that he took it easy on Sasuke but that he let Sasuke experience it enough, taunting him just the right way and generally just taking his time in order to facilitate Sasuke breaking out of Tsukiyomi.

I highly doubt he wanted Sasuke to feel the pain of having his eye gouged out.


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## MCHammerdad (Jan 24, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But such hasn't been the case for all Ninjutsu....



I would argue that point.


> Some jutsu's have been static in it's showcasing.
> 
> Tsukuyomi is one those showcasing along with a good portion of the Sharingans/Rinnegans abilities.



Not true. 

ST more chakra = Bigger. 

CST more chakra = bigger.

shunshin more chakra = faster



> Chakara absorbtion has always been static.



I can't really argue with this one.


> Amaterasu potency has always been static.



the longer the eye is open, the more potent. 



> Tsukuyomi potency has always been static.



False, we have seen it used at 72 hours... 24 hours... this time of mental torture, is a direct relation to how mentally damaged the target is. 



> Totsuka has always been static.



thats not a MS technique.



> Kumai (apart from skill/aim) has also been static.



I believe kakashi stated somewhere that he needed time to get the chakra to make a big enough barrier... or something...



> SM sense it's debute? Static



Nope, SM started slowing down when it was running out of chakra... more chakra = better.


> Harashin static.



Can't really argue hirashin.

etc. etc.....


> In other words several jutsu's showcased throughout the manga remains static in it's showcasing regardless of intent.



yes, I just don't see Tsukuyomi as being one of them.



> The jutsu in this discussion is what of them, and burden is upon you (who claim something oppose to what's shown in the manga) to provide adequate proof of such.



It is indeed, this is all I can offer you:



Itachi: "I can control every aspect of this world, even time itself."

Itachi used Tsukuyomi 3 times. 

1st: He used it on itachi stating it would last 72 hours.

2nd: he used it on Sasuke stating it would last 24 hours.

3rd: he used it on hebi sasuke without stating that it would last a definable period.

^^ that to me is a clear indicator of how a technique can be altered powerwise. 

Besides, Tsukuyomi's entire effectiveness is that it lasts so long, but happens so quickly, thats why the brain can't handle it. 





> Just like Kakashi's Raikiri/Chidori vs. Sasuke's Raikiri/Chidori however Tsukuyomi doesn't have this same distinguishment.



I disagree.



> It has had the same user on all three occasions and has produce the same EXACT effect in which it was successful.
> 
> 
> > Actually... none of the 3 times were the same...
> ...


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jan 24, 2012)

I am of the belief that Sasuke broke the Tsukuyomi and would have broken it no matter what, but Itachi could have inflicted far greater psychological damage before Sasuke broke it had he wanted to; and greater psychological damage would translate to greater phantom pain, given that it was Sasuke's mental projection of his own body he targeted rather than just going for the psyche.

Sasuke clutched the eye that had been "removed" in the illusion as if it still hurt even after the genjutsu was broken, and I cannot imagine that if Itachi made Tsukuyomi a blissful illusion, it would still do harm to its victim. It strains incredulity to imagine no relation between what Itachi does in the illusion and the effect it has on the target.

Kakashi and Sasuke both collapsed into comas despite being under the genjutsu for different amounts of time and despite being subject to two different forms of phantom attack because in both cases, what they were subjected to exceeded their mental capacity to cope. Note, however, that Sasuke was subject to Tsukuyomi after the massacre, and didn't collapse. Why? Because Itachi didn't push him as far.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

MCHammerdad said:


> I would argue that point.


Actually you couldn't as such is a true statement.

I didn't state all, I stated some.




> Not true.
> 
> ST more chakra = Bigger.
> 
> ...


Key word being some...






> the longer the eye is open, the more potent.


That isn't an assessment that could be supported.

The rate in which in burns points to the inconsistency in the showcasing of the jutsu it slef, it has never been stated, hinted, or implied to vary in between user/caster/circumstances etc. etc.

Such has been entirely fan made thesis.

It is a static jutsu as the potency behind the jutsu (heat, speed, and duration) has been consistent.







> False, we have seen it used at 72 hours... 24 hours... this time of mental torture, is a direct relation to how mentally damaged the target is.


You argue the details of the jutsu, which I stated weren't identicale. THE EFFECTS, as in the actual real world damage of the shinobi has been static.

Sasuke and Kakashi had different illusions, different masteries of the sharingan etc. etc..... recieved the same Vegitive state and the same trip to the "Free Clinic."




> thats not a MS technique.


Neither is shushin, but it is irrelevant as I never stated by restriciton was to strictly to Dojutsu.





> I believe kakashi stated somewhere that he needed time to get the chakra to make a big enough barrier... or something...


"Shisui's eye!My luck keeps getting better and better!"

But size doesn't representation of the potency of the jutsu.

In all, size and placement translates to skill, as no matter how big the barrier is, the same effect will occur.

Size is something Tsukuyomi doesn't have to worry about.

And Much like Kumai, which always suck things in.

Tsukuyomi has been showcased to be a jutsu in which reduces an opponent into a Vegitive state unless broken.







> Nope, SM started slowing down when it was running out of chakra... more chakra = better.


Wait what? When was that shown?





> yes, I just don't see Tsukuyomi as being one of them.


But it has....

The effects on the shinobi has been the same.... aka ALL OF BEEN REDUCED TO VEGITIVE LIKE STATES, thus requiring a trip to the "Free clinic"








> Itachi: "I can control every aspect of this world, even time itself."


That doesn't support what you are trying to state in the slightest, as the actual illusion in the world is IRELEVANT TO THE EFFECTS on the mind.

This isn't rocket science, this is plain old basic "Reading Comprehension"




> ^^ that to me is a clear indicator of how a technique can be altered powerwise.


No it isn't as you are only highlighting the diffence between the images, the actual POWER as in POTENCY ON THE TARGET, has been static. 

The first two ended up in the same hospital bed, with the same type of unresponsive sytoms, and required the same "Tsunade special touch" to cure the user.

Such implicates that no matter the image, the length of the image, etc. etc..The actual effects on the shinobi is static, the actual potency of the genjutsu itself is static; seeing as Itachi producing two different images, with two different lengths, but both shinobi recieved identical effects.










> Actually... none of the 3 times were the same...


Which was noted, I am strictly referring to the DAMAGE CAUSED. 






> Tobi:"Itachi wanted to die, and planned out the ENTIRE fight for your benefit."


Does this support your assessment?

You implicated that Itachi held back on his Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu the quote above doesn't support your claim. 







> Tsukuyomi's world, is a direct relation to the effects of the victims minds. If itachi made a 15 minute long genjutsu of you getting raped by a bunch of teenage girls (no assplay) do you think you would collapse and endup in the hospital for a week?


It is? Sounds like you are dabbling in area's you have no tools to do so. What you are allocating here is a personal thesis, which isn't remotely supported by the manga in the slightest.

Tsukuyomi's world doesn't seem to translate to the damage upon the victim. As Sasuke was in a vegitive state for far longer than 24 hours.

I've believe the manga mentoned something along the lines of MENTAL Damage. 

If Tsukuyomi damage was strictly confined to the actual world, how could Jiraiya make such a deduction? How could Tsunade cure it? 





> Genjutsu =/= a bullet.


Never allocated it did, I only used it to showcase just how little control the user has over the potency a (TSUKUYOMI) user has on it's victim.

The Damage no matter the image appears to be comparable, in all the situations in which it has worked. 



> its more like... locking someone inside of a trapped house... like saw.... you have complete control over them....


Such isn't what is DOING THE DAMAGE.

As an image does not produce damage by itself. It's like a bad dream that is so stressing that it embarks a heart attack. The actual cause of death is cardiac arrest, the cause of it would be the bad dream.

Tsukuyomi no matter the dream leaves the user in the same exact state. The jutsu itself is implied to produce the same stress on the body, no matter the image. How else do you deduce, as you already pointed, two distinct uses, with two distinct lengths. Producing the same effect?

Considering Sasuke and Kakashi was still in the same unresponsive state for far longer than THREE DAYS(which is the maximum length in which anyone was put under the illusion). 

It took three days for Naruto to master the Rasengan
MENTAL Damage

Something he learned between the events of Kakashi/Sasuke getting Tsukuyomied and Kakashi/Sasuke getting cured for it.

The more evidence I pull from the manga, the more and more your responses seem to be contradicting them. 







> That makes no sense, as the mental damage... is directly related... to the length, image being displayed, and setting of the genjutsu.


Yet both shinobi's experienced the same outcome REGARDLESS OF SUCH VARIABLES.

Which implicates very clearly that no matter the illusion Tsukuyomi victims end up in the same place... A trip to the "Free clinic"





> However he could easily let you watch a 2 hour movie in that second.. and you would be absolutely fine.


That is essentially what Sasuke got.

Only the movie was 24 hours, and didn't involve something he wanted to see.

Itachi didn't touch Sasuke in the illusion, yet same effect.

Kakashi on the other hand was physically torchered in his illusion, he was getting "Penitrated" by Itachi fro 72 hours.

Yet both ended up with a trip to "The free clinic":ho

This isn't a hard concept to understand. 











> I simply don't agree.


You have too, as it is what is showcased by the manga.

Kakashi and 12 year old Sasuke's trip to the hospital, identicle idle time, etc. etc. reflects it.

The only one who didn't recieve this "luxiorous package" is the only person to break it.

Which was already stated he could so ages ago.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

> You missed my point, i'm not saying its coming from a source.
> 
> When a flamethrower is in use on the target... the heat is intense.... after the flamethrower stops... there are still flames on the target and around the target... but the heat is much much less intense then when the flamethrower was contributing.


But Amaterasu is anything but.

As showcased by Sasuke and Gara(VS. Enton which still resides on sight) the trick to avoiding a jutsu based on sight, and to put something inbetween the two.

Sasuke's Katon was in between Amaterasu and himself, thus is why it recieved the "Warm embrace" of Amaterasu vs. himself.







> Yes, activating the technique is pulling the trigger (of my flamethrower) the flames stay on as long as my finger keeps the trigger pulled down.
> 
> When This happened.


The flames tend to stay on regardless.

In fact it requires additional effort from the user to put it out. 

As far as the link you posted, clearly you do not understand how Amaterasu works.

It can clearly be guided to it's target in the event that it has missed it's focal point.

We clearly see this example in Raikage vs. Sasuke as well.
This

The flames are traveling towarads the Samurai.

The Flames converge on a focal point, if the focal point isn't established the user can then guide the flames upon it's target.

Unless you want to suggest Sasuke dodged Amaterasu three times?

In which he would make him have the FATEST, actual movement feat, in the manga. 






> Itachi wasn't making his amaterasu flames follow Sasuke... each second new ones were created at the point of his focus.. while the old ones continued outward away from the fight.


He wasn't?

It certainly looks that way to me.

This

Again are you suggesting Sasuke dodged Amaterasu?

Surely you could not be suggesting such nonsense, for the sake of Itachi?

There isn't any "Second new ones" he fired TWO. The second was then guided to Sasuke (the focal point) it brushed against trees, etc. etc. before eventually landing on Sasuke.

Again clearly you see the flames giving chase to Sasuke, whose changing directions and not in a strait line (Hence the position of Itachi's eyes whose trying to track Sasuke's movement).



> He was "holding down the trigger."


Ah I see your notion, however it wouldn't be accurate to call it flame thrower.

As a flamethrower implies continuous stream.

Amaterasu is anything but, it is a one to one jutsu (hence the weak point of the sharingan vs. Numbers).

Enton/Kasagutchi may change this, but as far as actual Amaterasu on it's own. It's only good for one target, no MATTER THE SIZE.






> Look at the above scan... they could essentially spread their amaterasu over a wide area."


They could redirect it.

Itachi Amaterasu may have brushed against trees, but clearly the "Eye of the flames" was busy giving chase to Sasuke.




> Compltely false, only entons have shown to be capable of "guiding" Amaterasu's afterflames, and only sasuke has shown it.


Enton only allows the user to utilze/manipulate an already established flames.

Which is much different than guiding ones shot.

Guiding ones shot implies one can alter the direction of the projetile, but not necessarily reuse it.

Enton allows Sasuke to recycle already existing enton flames.

Essentially the same control Gara has over his sand. 

Thus is why many theorize that such is the potential of Enton.

This

How could you not see this, when clearly Amaterasu is not only shown chasing Sasuke, it also showcases the path in which it took with MINY Amaterasu streaks between spots in which it made contact wit hthe trees.






> The dangerousness of a Amaterasy and its afterflames are very noticable, for example:
> 
> Amaterasu: Blew a hole through the wall of flesh.
> 
> While the afterflames sit there quietly "burning" but to a much lesser degree.


Again that is the inconsistency in the jutsu.

Not necessarily a reflectionion of potency.

Such is merely a theory, an adequate one, but still just a theory.

Some cases it has showcased to burns instantly others it did not.

The flames upon the Samurai armor were guided their by Sasuke(intended or not), yet it still had just as much trouble burning it, as the flames upon the trees, etc. etc.




> His right arm wa shit by amatearsu
> 
> It is almost completely incinerated... while the rest of his body... which the afterflames spread to... aren't very injured at all.


Yes, the flames seem to have a tendacy to spread, however only in the invent in which it makes contact with something.

This is no different than the panel you posted above in which the flames made contact with several trees before hitting Sasuke's wing, and quickly spreading to the rest of his body.

However Sasuke was careful not to make contact with the flames.

In fact he was still blowing a small fraction of his Katon at the time Susano emerged.







> Ofcourse, I'm not saying that getting the afterflames on you won't result in your slow very painful death... I'm saying that not nearly as deadly as amaterasu itself.


It is the same potency, as it is the same flames being utilzed. The difference is in the speed of EXECUTION.

Amaterasu allows such a manuver to potentially just appear on the target, something Enton doesn't apparently grant. 





> I was simply lending my opinion, similarly to how your lending yours.


The problem is I never lended much of an opinion, just regurtated facts

It is a fact TSUKUYOMI had the same effect on Sasuke/Kakashi (thus the assessment of STATIC EFFECTS upon the victim)

It is a fact that both Sasuke and Kakashi stayed the same alloted time in the hospital despite TWO DIFFERENT LENGTHS of Tsukuyomi. 

It is a fact that Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.

Clearly Amaterasu is traveling to Sasuke. We've seen this in the Anime it's depicted quite clearly by the manga(thus is why Sasuke isn't considered to have dodged it).

Amaterasu inconsistency has not be credited in the manga, thus the only factorial statement is (AN INCONSTENCY IN WHICH THE SPEED IT BURNS) which is also supported by the manga.

I've never stated much outside of these, in fact I spent most of my point responding to your points.

Everything I actually suggested is showcased quite adequately by the manga.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jan 24, 2012)

Sasuke clutched the eye that had been "removed" in the illusion as if it still hurt even after the genjutsu was broken, and I cannot imagine that if Itachi made Tsukuyomi a blissful illusion, it would still do harm to its victim. It strains incredulity to imagine no relation between what Itachi does in the illusion and the effect it has on the target.

Kakashi and Sasuke both collapsed into comas despite being under the genjutsu for different amounts of time and despite being subject to two different forms of phantom attack because in both cases, what they were subjected to exceeded their mental capacity to cope. Note, however, that Sasuke was subject to Tsukuyomi after the massacre, and was still getting up and fighting (even activating his Sharingan). Why? Because Itachi didn't push him as far.


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## King Scoop (Jan 24, 2012)

Sasuke broke out of it, but Itachi was holding back. He wanted Sasuke to break it, so it's not like he could go all out and put everything he had into the technique. The whole fight was a fake. He was fighting down to Sasuke's level to make it seem realistic. It's like playing basketball with a kid. You play horribly and make it look like you're really trying, maybe even let them win. When in reality you could just steal the ball and dunk on them all day.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Sasuke clutched the eye that had been "removed" in the illusion as if it still hurt even after the genjutsu was broken, and I cannot imagine that if Itachi made Tsukuyomi a blissful illusion, it would still do harm to its victim. It strains incredulity to imagine no relation between what Itachi does in the illusion and the effect it has on the target.
> 
> Kakashi and Sasuke both collapsed into comas despite being under the genjutsu for different amounts of time and despite being subject to two different forms of phantom attack because in both cases, what they were subjected to exceeded their mental capacity to cope. *Note, however, that Sasuke was subject to Tsukuyomi after the massacre*, and was still getting up and fighting (even activating his Sharingan). Why? Because Itachi didn't push him as far.



The point in bold is not correct.

Itachi Tsukuyomi debut was against Kakashi.

The genjutsu utilized to showcase his parents death was....................."Sharingan genjutsu"

Naruto 570


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jan 24, 2012)

Tsukuyomi's debut was indeed against Kakashi ... in the narrative to the readers. But not chronologically in the narrative history.

But what do you suppose happened here? . He utilized the Mangekyo Sharingan to create a black and white world in which he showed Sasuke very unpleasant memories in a manner extraordinarily similar to what he did to Sasuke when they met again (which wasn't stated to be Tsukuyomi either at that time in the manga but we are clearly supposed to understand it to be).


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 24, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Tsukuyomi's debut was indeed against Kakashi ... in the narrative to the readers. But not chronologically in the narrative history.
> 
> But what do you suppose happened here? . He utilized the Mangekyo Sharingan to create a black and white world in which he showed Sasuke very unpleasant memories in a manner extraordinarily similar to what he did to Sasuke when they met again (which wasn't stated to be Tsukuyomi either at that time in the manga but we are clearly supposed to understand it to be).



But showing images of the past transgression has been done on multiple occasions.

Sasuke did it to Kabuto to showcase the events in which took place in Oro's deminsion.(Damn spell checker from Marzilla).

Like wise with Itachi, when telling the story of Madara etc. etc.

The only thing that seperates Tsukuyomi and normal is the S/T aspect as without it, mental fatigue cannot be produced as explained by the databook.

"."

Lots of genjutsu have inverted colors, including several of Sasuke's.

The difference that Tsukuyomi does images "Keep going and going" Lol

It is the S/T aspect which defines Tsukuyomi. 

Thus is the only thing which seperates it from normal bare bones sharingan genjutsu.But what do you suppose happened here? 

As implied specifically stated by the databook and reinforced by Danzo.

Thus is why: stating Itachi can manipulate the potency of Tsukuyomi is illogical given the fact that a genjutsu cannot be Tsukuyomi, without incorporating the lethality which is the (S/T) of Tsukuyomi. 

Itachi couldn't implement any time mechanics upon the genjutsu, as Sasuke didn't give him the chance too (Itachi's Tsukuyomi torcher was brought to a screeching hault around one eye).

And after reexamining the databook which clearly states, with a rhetorical question.

"Does this mean Sasuke may one day break it?"





Tsukuyomi by the databook was describe as a genjutsu that


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jan 24, 2012)

Explain to me how what the difference was between Tsukuyomi and what Itachi did after the massacre and why you are postulating a separate genjutsu for what could be explained by Tsukuyomi.

He showed Sasuke the events that transpired over the course of a moment or two (and the events surely took longer than a moment or two) in a black and white world using the Mangekyo Sharingan which left Sasuke exhausted on the ground. The only difference between that and the later use of Tsukuyomi against Sasuke was that Itachi only played the events over once. And that is why Sasuke, despite having a more vulnerable mind and lacking a Sharingan to even begin to penetrate any aspect of the illusion, didn't go into a coma back then. Both Kakashi and Sasuke later fell into comas despite the different sort of mental attacks they suffered and despite the differing lengths of time trapped in the illusion not because thats automatic, but because Itachi used the genjutsu to push both of them past their limits of mental endurance. 

Despite breaking Tsukuyomi, Sasuke clearly was suffering from mental fatigue and seemed to experience phantom pain from his left eye, because the illusion still managed to have an effect on his psyche. Had Itachi chosen to use his most intensive torture, the damage would be greater, and it may have taken longer (in illusion time, at least), for Sasuke to break it since the illusionary pain could hinder focus. All he had to contend with was a single missing eye and some battery from a kick and then hitting a wall. And afterwards only felt some residual phantom pain from this as well as the lingering mental anguish of being beaten and robbed of his eye by his brother. 

My interpretation is not at all inconsistent with anything in the manga or the databook. And unlike yours, it doesn't postulate that the very act of using Tsukuyomi creates the mental anguish, which would imply that he could given his targets three days of hugs and kittens and they still would fall into comas.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 25, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Explain to me how what the difference was between Tsukuyomi and what Itachi did after the massacre and why you are postulating a separate genjutsu for what could be explained by Tsukuyomi.


Did you just read my previous post, the S/T aspect was implemented against 12 year old not 8 year old Sasuke.

I used to think the same thing, to I actually went back and analyze the flash back during my revisit the golden days.



> He showed Sasuke the events that transpired over the course of a moment or two (and the events surely took longer than a moment or two) in a black and white world using the Mangekyo Sharingan which left Sasuke exhausted on the ground. The only difference between that and the later use of Tsukuyomi against Sasuke was that Itachi only played the events over once. And that is why Sasuke, despite having a more vulnerable mind and lacking a Sharingan to even begin to penetrate any aspect of the illusion, didn't go into a coma back then. Both Kakashi and Sasuke later fell into comas despite the different sort of mental attacks they suffered and despite the differing lengths of time trapped in the illusion not because thats automatic, but because Itachi used the genjutsu to push both of them past their limits of mental endurance.


Sasuke wasn't exhausted from the genjutsu.
But what do you suppose happened here? 

However the point above is irrelevant.

Elongated events have been showcased with pure sharingan genjutsu, and Tsukuyomi isn't necessarily defined by inverted colors as showcased. 

The difference between what can be accomplished by Tsukuyomi and sharingan genjutsu is really getthing thin. The only meat that is left is the S/T aspect.

And inverted colors is just one of many visual styles to represent genjutsu.

showcased.

showcased.

And again Tsukuyomi doesn't necessarily have too include such.

You are banking too much on what visual style and ignoring the very definition of Tsukuyomi.

You are ignoring the fact that regular genjutsu has all the properties in which you associated with Tsukuyomi, minus the most important one. Minus the single aspect in which makes Tsukuyomi, in fact Tsukuyomi S/T jutsu.





> Despite breaking Tsukuyomi, Sasuke clearly was suffering from mental fatigue and seemed to experience phantom pain from his left eye, because the illusion still managed to have an effect on his psyche. Had Itachi chosen to use his most intensive torture, the damage would be greater, and it may have taken longer (in illusion time, at least), for Sasuke to break it since the illusionary pain could hinder focus. All he had to contend with was a single missing eye and some battery from a kick and then hitting a wall. And afterwards only felt some residual phantom pain from this as well as the lingering mental anguish of being beaten and robbed of his eye by his brother.


We do not necessarly have to speculate here, as such was already confirmed to the reader to be Tsukuyomi.

You are tying intensity to the image, when such has proven to be irrelevant, in fact that is what I spent a good deal discussing in the previous posts. The image, length, etc. etc. are all irrelevant as it produces the same effect upon the victims mind, the results (from what we've seen) at the end of the day is MENTAL FATIGUE. 

And a slight correction needs to be made on my part (as the databook strictly states the mental anguish is caused by the time factor NOT STRICTLY THE JUTSU), thus the length of the illusion may have had some effect on the victims state. As notice Kakashi has a much more longer illusion(72 hours) to get the same result a (12 hours), but even in this form of thinking it would not support what you are allocating, as Sasuke was able to break the illusion from the INSIDE. Something he wasn't able to do at 12, and something Kakashi couldn't do because he didn't possess the same blood as Itachi.

But as I mentioned previous post. If Tskuyomi can only be called Tsukuyomi while incorporating S/T aspects, how does it distinguishes itself without such? As you are eleminating the only defining Mechanics of Tsukuyomi itself. As again regular sharingan can not only cast illusion, can be utilzed to tell stories, etc. etc...... it just cannot alter a persons perception of S/T like Koto Amata alters the persons form of thought, and Izanagi the users reality.







> My interpretation is not at all inconsistent with anything in the manga or the databook. And unlike yours, it doesn't postulate that the very act of using Tsukuyomi creates the mental anguish, which would imply that he could given his targets three days of hugs and kittens and they still would fall into comas.


But for Tsukuyomi to distinguish itself again, S/T alteration (which is the very thing which causes the mental stress) must the utilized.

This has been a prime aspect for years, and has been the key argument into deducing Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. If you take away the ONLY DISTINGUISHMENTS of MS genjutsu then congrats you have regular bare bones sharingan genjutsu.


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## MCHammerdad (Jan 25, 2012)

^^ It seems Subtle took my points and just polished them.

If you still can't agree with the both of us, then your pretty damn convinced. 

I'll take my leave of this argument and leave you gentlemen to it.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jan 25, 2012)

Everything else you said boils down to the importance of the S/T component and so the only thing that even merits a reply is this. I never denied the importance of the S/T component and so you are merely projecting that argument onto me. 

So I am going to end this right now; the S/T component was absolutely, unequivocally, and self evidently used against 8 year old Sasuke. How else do you imagine that he managed to get a complete play through of what had happened within the space of a moment or two? He trapped Sasuke in a space of his own making and played what might have been hours worth of memories in the space of mere seconds. That, right there, is heavy illusionary S/T manipulation.

You say that elongated events have been showcased in ordinary Sharingan genjutsu while also saying that S/T manipulation is the key factor Tsukuyomi. You realize that is ironic, right? Elongated or compressed mental events are the very definition of illusionary space/time manipulation! If you deny this, then you must explain to me what S/T manipulation in genjutsu is, because otherwise, you are creating an arbitrary, abstract, and meaningless difference that doesn't actually correspond with any actual, observable property of the genjutsu.

Oh, and a few more things. One, the databook doesn't say that it is the time component which causes the mental anguish. Read more carefully. Two, yes, 8 year old Sasuke is exhausted. Again, read more carefully. Three, no, you haven't proven that Tsukuyomi always has equal effects. You have speculated it because Kakashi and Sasuke were both pushed past their limits, which says nothing whatsoever in your favor. 

You are imagining that you have proved things that you haven't done in the tiniest little bit.


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