# KCM1+SM Naruto VS EMS Sasuke



## Raiken (Nov 1, 2013)

*Scenario:*
Both start at 100% Health and Stamina.
In this battle, Kurama stays out of it, he will however break Genjutsu *if* Naruto is caught in one.
Naruto makes full use of his Chakra Mode(KCM1) and Sage Mode(SM) combined. As well as, Clones, Rasengans/Fuuton and other techniques.
Sasuke makes full use of his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan(EMS). As well as, Raiton, Katon and other techniques.
*Restrictions:*
Naruto: Kurama(KCM2-BM, Chakra Restorations)
Sasuke: Kirin
Both: Summoning Jutsu
*Mindset:* Calm, going for the win and if necessary, will kill the opponent.
*Terrain:* Rocky Badlands


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 1, 2013)

Opening you do know that EMS Sasuke is currently being depicted to be on Naruto's level(while using BM) as we speak right?

Feat wise, the Naruto in question has little to no feats. Feat wise, the benefits of SM, outside of harming Obito, hasn't been properly showcased as of now. Feat wise, the full potential of EMS Sasuke, aka PS, hasn't been shown outside this.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 1, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Opening you do know that EMS Sasuke is currently being depicted to be on Naruto's level(while using BM) as we speak right?


I agree, he is being depicted on BM Naruto's level, "depicted". This is Battledome. 
A lot of characters are portrayed to be on the same level, but if we were to pit them against each other, more than often, certain ones come out on top.


> Feat wise, the Naruto in question has little to no feats. Feat wise, the benefits of SM, outside of harming Obito, hasn't been properly showcased as of now.


I agree, in regards to BM, considering how powerful BM already is and the nature of Chakra Construct Combat, SM has little to offer; the biggest beneficial trait is probably the Sensing.
However, in a personal combat style, like both KCM and SM use, it's easy to imagine what Naruto will be capable of.
All you do is look at the feats of SM and KCM1 individually, and logically combine them into one.


> Feat wise, the full potential of EMS Sasuke, aka PS, hasn't been shown outside this.


In regards to Sasuke's PS, all we know so far is that:
He's capable of performing the L2 Susano'o Armour "mark of being Perfect".
And he's likely able to create a PS the size of Naruto's BM.
So all you do is you scale down what Madara has portrayed against the 5 Kage and Edo Hashirama by roughly 3x "based on size difference; as Naruto's BM is roughly 3x smaller than Madara's PS".
Although even then it's tricky to do that.
Sasuke hasn't really portrayed much, extended reach, with the power of his PS Sword like Madara's PS, which is able to slash through Mountains, far away from it's position.
So I guess, we're basically looking at this:

Except a giant version, with legs and more defence than usual.
Obviously attacks will scale with the size, but also speculate a more potent blade, just not to Madara's level.


----------



## MysteriousD (Nov 1, 2013)

Featwise *dat clone* would push the Saus

Naruto creates his 13 "save the world clones" and they run high speed throwing FRS+ Sage mode at Sasuke's sussanno.

Chakra arms created can also hold Sussannos arms and sword as displayed here although its unspecified whether or not BM chakra arms= KCM chakra arms

this

Although with Sage mode added Ill say yes they do as Sage mode+ anything= more

With Sage mode sensing Naruto will see Amaterasu coming from a mile away

With Negative sensing Sasuke is just a BIG dot

Naruto can also flash shushin when most dire so thats added as well

+ he was able to dodge v2 Raikage which Sasuke could not even see with sharingan, hit with Amaterasu, and had to resort to Enton defense

IF he pulls that here FRS will destroy sussanno or destabilize the chakra at the very least

Naruto has FAR too much chakra and feats to defeat this

EDIT: Naruto is not a dummy if Sasuke goes for that Super Enton sussanno after the damage a FRS+Sage mode (effect on Enton???) would Naruto would look for a weak spot

Can you guess it?

 DING DING DING!!! *THAT ENTON ORB!!!!*

If hit directly by a Sage Mode FRS or GIANT FRS+Sage mode that orb will destabilize and spiral out of Sasuke's control

Like blowing up the right half of Sussanno leaving that open

*EDIT 2: Sasuke cant fully control enton if it has Sage energy running amuck as he has NO FEATS of doing so and Sage Mode FRS is air+Kyuubi chakra+Sage mode. Regular FRS+Enton does this*

this      *So half of Sussanno if not all is gone*

*DIRE situation alert:* Naruto needs that opportunity and I'd say he'd risk the foot injury to shushin there and hit sasuke with a quick Sage mode Rasengan= Game over

That or he just throws a Giant Sage Mode FRS at the front and that does big damage

Or aims for the *open mouth* with mini Sage Mode FRS


----------



## Jagger (Nov 1, 2013)

It really depends how big and powerful Sasuke's PS can be without armoring BM Naruto, without feats on its own, this match could be given to Naruto. But then again, the Complete Susano'O with le gs could do the work if Sasuke doesn't decide to mindlessly spam it.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 1, 2013)

Well we don't really know how big he can make his Susano'o.
The first time was with the Chakra Cloak, which increased the size of Kamui Kakashi can generate by 3x, and that was the weakest version seen of Chakra Naruto can dish out.
The second time it was when fusing with Bijuu Mode.

Sasuke doesn't actually have 100% Solo Feats. His Solo Feats are only comparable to Itachi's Susano'o Feats.

But for the sake of this debate, we'll assume Sasuke can create a Susano'o the size of Naruto's BM: "The standard Bijuu and Boss Summon Size".

In regards to the battle however, we've seen SM Naruto manhandle 50% Kurama "Not saying SM Naruto > 50% Kurama", which is obviously the size of Naruto's BM, and as a result, the size of Sasuke's PS.
And this is SM+KCM. KCM Naruto's Chakra Limbs could stop the Yonbi's hand from crushing him, hands which threw the Hachibi; as well as strength to stop the Yonbi's Jaw from closing on him.
The physical capabilities KCM+SM should be very, very potent. And the diversity of attack that: Clones - Chakra Limbs - Rasengans - FRS; allows, in conjuction with KCM+SM, is pretty significant.
I'm just trying to establish that I believe, to some people that may believe otherwise, that this isn't a stomp for Sasuke, Naruto can full well challenge him in this state.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 1, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> *EDIT 2: Sasuke cant fully control enton if it has Sage energy running amuck as he has NO FEATS of doing so and Sage Mode FRS is air+Kyuubi chakra+Sage mode. Regular FRS+Enton does *


*

Sasuke's Enton negated Kabuto's Muki Tensei which was a jutsu that used sage energy to Control the  cave and bring it to life. Reread that part of the manga. Until then, you are spouting nonsense*


----------



## MysteriousD (Nov 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Sasuke's Enton negated Kabuto's Muki Tensei which was a jutsu that used sage energy to Control the  cave and bring it to life. Reread that part of the manga. Until then, you are spouting nonsense



It returned the rock to Its original shape thats all. Nothing more

It was the rock doing the work not concentrated sage chakra vs Enton. 

Sasuke has no FEATS vs pure Sage energy

*We need to see* *Sage Mode chakra* (not rock vs Enton) FRS *vs Enton* and *Sasuke retain control of Enton despite Sage energy flowing into the flames.*

*Until then* *YOUR spouting nonsense **trying to say HE COULD* when it wasnt ever implied that was the case.

*Kabuto Muki Tensei did nothing more than make rocks move (earthbend). A glorified Doton jutsu*

*Rasengan is pure chakra* and so Sage Mode Rasengan is *pure Natural energy* which *Sasuke didnt train to control.*

Meaning *until we see Sasuke* use a Senpou tech or *Counter Pure Senpou chakra** with his own ninjutsu (his chakra) and retain control
*
We cant say he would remain in control if his enton got mixed up with Sage energy


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 1, 2013)

Depends on how powerful Sasuke's PS is. All we know is that it's the stabilized form of his final susanoo and he can make it as big as Naruto's BM shroud (actually a bit bigger seeing as it managed to rise up and cover Kurama's head) and possibly bigger seeing as the armor scales to whatever the user is equipping it to. 

We don't know exactly how powerful its sword is.. Logically, it'll be much more powerful than anything his previous susanoo forms had, though.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 1, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> It returned the rock to Its original shape thats all. Nothing more
> 
> It was the rock doing the work not concentrated sage chakra vs Enton.
> 
> ...



Deny deny deny.


----------



## MysteriousD (Nov 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Deny deny deny.



Concession accepted. Nothing you said refuted any of my claims as Sasuke's feats have no evidence to the contrary


----------



## Raiken (Nov 1, 2013)

*In regards to Scaling:*
I think it's something like this:
BM+SM Naruto => *BM Naruto >> EMS Sasuke = KCM+SM Naruto* > KCM Naruto > SM Naruto >> SG Sasuke
Or somewhere in the middle:
BM+SM Naruto => *BM Naruto > EMS Sasuke > KCM+SM Naruto* > KCM Naruto > SM Naruto >> SG Sasuke
Or it could just as easily be:
BM+SM Naruto => *BM Naruto = EMS Sasuke >> KCM+SM Naruto* > KCM Naruto > SM Naruto >> SG Sasuke

Currently we can't fully tell for any of those, It all depends on how powerful Sasuke is with the EMS *on his own*, without a Chakra Cloak or combined with Bijuu Mode.
But I believe Sasuke will at least be on KCM+SM level with his EMS.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 1, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> *In regards to Scaling:*
> I think it's something like this:
> BM+SM Naruto => *BM Naruto >> EMS Sasuke = KCM+SM Naruto* > KCM Naruto > SM Naruto >> SG Sasuke
> Or somewhere in the middle:
> ...



Uh no. He's already being portrayed as being equal to BM Naruto and managed to manifest a PS as large as Naruto's BM. There's nothing to suggest Naruto's bijuu shroud increased it's size when all Sasuke did was wrap the armor around it. They didn't fuse. Not to mention Naruto's BM shroud has never been shown to increase ones chakra. It's only managed to heal and that was when Kurama took an active role in doing it. 

You really need to stop this downplay. Sasuke manifested PS along with the size of it on his own.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 3, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Uh no. He's already being portrayed as being equal to BM Naruto and managed to manifest a PS as large as Naruto's BM. There's nothing to suggest Naruto's bijuu shroud increased it's size when all Sasuke did was wrap the armor around it. They didn't fuse. Not to mention Naruto's BM shroud has never been shown to increase ones chakra. It's only managed to heal and that was when Kurama took an active role in doing it.


I agree he's being "portrayed" as equal in the latest Chapters, but when we look at Feats, BM Naruto still comes out significantly on top over EMS Sasuke. Primarily because we haven't seen Sasuke perform PS solo yet and display significant feats.
Saying their Chakra didn't combine is your opinion, just like it's my opinion that it has.
You're not any more right than me; and when you consider that you need Senjutsu Chakra incorporated into attacks for them to be effective against Obito, and who's PS sword broke through Obito's Yin-Yang Black Matter Sword. It's more likely to be the case that their Chakra is being combined.


> You really need to stop this downplay. Sasuke manifested PS along with the size of it on his own.


You really need to stop acting like you're definitely right despite feats and evidence.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 3, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> I agree he's being "portrayed" as equal in the latest Chapters, but when we look at Feats, BM Naruto still comes out significantly on top over EMS Sasuke. Primarily because we haven't seen Sasuke perform PS solo yet and display significant feats.
> Saying their Chakra didn't combine is your opinion, just like it's my opinion that it has.
> You're not any more right than me; and when you consider that you need Senjutsu Chakra incorporated into attacks for them to be effective against Obito, and who's PS sword broke through Obito's Yin-Yang Black Matter Sword. It's more likely to be the case that their Chakra is being combined.



Yes because wrapping armor around something is the same as actually combining powers.  Did Madara and Kurama combine their chakra when he threw his susanoo armor around it? No. That's all the evidence I need.

And as I said, it makes no differnece seeing as Naruto's BM shroud has NEVER displayed abilities to increase ones chakra reserve. 



> You really need to stop acting like you're definitely right despite feats and evidence.



Feats and evidence are right in front of you. Sasuke manifested susanoo on his own as shown here. 



And here:



And threw it on Kurama. Your ridiculous downplay won't change that. 

You're just in constant denial due to the fact that you can't stand that the sharingan has power equal to that of a Bijuu. You tried to downplay Madara when his displayed PS saying it was due to the rinnegan. When that was debunked you moved onto saying the Kyuubi powered it. Now you're doing the same with Sasuke. 

It's quite sad really.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 3, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta, I'm not even going to bother replying to your consistent arrogant behaviour in that you think almost everything you believe is *fact*, while at least I'm stating just an opinion, an opinion that you cannot actually prove wrong, so you simply act as if you're 100% right and resort to calling me sad.
I even included EMS Sasuke being equal to BM Naruto in one of the possibilities, yet you still resorted to a post like your last one. I notice you do always seem to resort to mockery and insults in your posts, grow up please.


----------



## Etherborn (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm starting to think that people who go by depiction fail to realize how inconsistent Kishimoto is when it comes to matching portrayal with what the characters have actually been shown to be capable of. 

Current Sasuke wins this. You should probably restrict him to how he was in the fight vs. Kabuto. He could spam all of his EMS techniques, but his Susanoo seemingly wasn't nearly as powerful.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 3, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> The Saiyan Prince Vegeta, I'm not even going to bother replying to your consistent arrogant behaviour in that you think almost everything you believe is *fact*, while at least I'm stating just an opinion, an opinion that you cannot actually prove wrong, so you simply act as if you're 100% right and resort to calling me sad.
> I even included EMS Sasuke being equal to BM Naruto in one of the possibilities, yet you still resorted to a post like your last one. I notice you do always seem to resort to mockery and insults in your posts, grow up please.



So no actual retort then? Very well.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 3, 2013)

Naruto wins. Naruto spams cofrs from all sides and destroys sasuke and his Susano. Sasuke has nothing that can counter it. Naruto can also just catch sasukes sword with a chakra arm and smash a tbb rasengan into the Susano. All sasuke has shown so far is that he can put legs on his v3 Susano. That isn't enough to beat this form of naruto.


----------



## Etherborn (Nov 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Naruto wins. Naruto spams cofrs from all sides and destroys sasuke and his Susano. Sasuke has nothing that can counter it. Naruto can also just catch sasukes sword with a chakra arm and smash a tbb rasengan into the Susano. All sasuke has shown so far is that he can put legs on his v3 Susano. That isn't enough to beat this form of naruto.



Wait, are you saying current Sasuke's Susanoo, which tanked yin yang attacks from Juubito, couldn't tank attacks from KCM Naruto or Sage Mode Naruto?


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 3, 2013)

^
Sasukes Susano hasn't tanked anything from obito. It was destroyed by being smashed into the ground by those chakra hands even though it was enhanced by senjutsu. Sasuke doesn't have access to his senjutu Susano in this  fight. Naruto can just spam cofrs until the Susano is gone.


----------



## Etherborn (Nov 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> ^
> Sasukes Susano hasn't tanked anything from obito. It was destroyed by being smashed into the ground by those chakra hands even though it was enhanced by senjutsu. Sasuke doesn't have access to his senjutu Susano in this  fight. Naruto can just spam cofrs until the Susano is gone.



And yet Sasuke was completely unscathed just like Naruto was, and afterwards, Sasuke's enton blade broke Juubito's sword of creation when it was fused with Kurama's chakra. Even if Naruto was pulling a lot of the weight, that's still a pretty hardcore feat. Sage mode susanoo or not doesn't really make a huge difference in this fight.

BM Naruto should be able to defeat current Sasuke because of his sheer destructive power durability and speed, but comparing current Sasuke to Naruto from 100 chapters ago just doesn't make sense, especially considering the massive power boost that Naruto got when he combined forces with Kurama.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 3, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> And yet Sasuke was completely unscathed just like Naruto was, and afterwards, Sasuke's enton blade broke Juubito's sword of creation when it was fused with Kurama's chakra. Even if Naruto was pulling a lot of the weight, that's still a pretty hardcore feat. Sage mode susanoo or not doesn't really make a huge difference in this fight.


Its just that sasuke hasn't really shown what his susano is capable of. He probably has PS but he hasn't shown any feats with it yet. So I can't really put him on even this Naruto's lvl.



> BM Naruto should be able to defeat current Sasuke because of his sheer destructive power durability and speed, *but comparing current Sasuke to Naruto from 100 chapters ago just doesn't make sense*, especially considering the massive power boost that Naruto got when he combined forces with Kurama.


Not exactly this is KCM Naruto fused with sm. Also Naruto's cooperation with kurama gives him access to his full chakra. He also has new moves like COFRS. So this Naruto is far stronger than the one without kurama's cooperation and SM.


----------



## Etherborn (Nov 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Its just that sasuke hasn't really shown what his susano is capable of. He probably has PS but he hasn't shown any feats with it yet. So I can't really put him on even this Naruto's lvl.
> 
> 
> Not exactly this is KCM Naruto fused with sm. Also Naruto's cooperation with kurama gives him access to his full chakra. He also has new moves like COFRS. So this Naruto is far stronger than the one without kurama's cooperation and SM.



Oooh, you mean current Naruto with BM restricted. That's debatable in my opinion. I know FRS is futon rasenshuriken. What is COFRS?


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 3, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Oooh, you mean current Naruto with BM restricted. That's debatable in my opinion. I know FRS is futon rasenshuriken. What is COFRS?


COFRS is Chou Odama Fuuton Rasenshuriken. This is it right here.


----------



## Etherborn (Nov 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> COFRS is Chou Odama Fuuton Rasenshuriken. This is it right here.



Oh ok, thanks.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 4, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Not exactly this is KCM Naruto fused with sm. Also Naruto's cooperation with kurama gives him access to his full chakra. He also has new moves like COFRS. So this Naruto is far stronger than the one without kurama's cooperation and SM.


This is basically:
Current Naruto, using KCM+SM combined. But he does not have access to Kurama's Chakra in any form, only his own Kyuubi Chakra.
Kurama can however be used to break Genjutsu if Naruto is caught in one, but that is it.


----------

