# New age for Japan



## Toby (Dec 31, 2005)

GaraKira said:


> Gladly.
> 
> My oppinion: The war could've ended without America making a "millions or hundres of thousand" ultimatum. thereby making them barbaric and evil.



Right. You didn't understand what I asked of you. Here it is: Write an argument, because I, nor does anyone else here, care what your opinion is. Ideally the US would just starve Japan to tiny bits of corpulent beasts. But there is a tad of realism we have to deal with.



GaraKira said:


> You counter: here, read this link, it shows how the millitary reached their decision. it was either this or millions.
> 
> conclusion: your counter shows that you didn't comprehend my point, since my point was "it could've ended without such an ultimatum". thereby making your point MEANINGLESS (Follow the arrow) in this discussion.
> ............-------------
> ...



First of all that document justifies the loss of life in the nuclear bombings as more acceptable than the invasion. That entirely counters your point, which still doesn't have any historian's support btw, because you do not explain HOW there could be any other way to avoid the ultimatum. That proves that I am correct in the use of such a counter.



GaraKira said:


> Bang!
> 
> But don't get it wrong, I didn't insult inductive reasoning. It's just that your use of it sucks major ass.



That's right, you didn't read that link, did you? Prove it, that's what is required in this debate. I see your point but once again you misunderstand the whole point of my argument here. You have promoted that there is an alternative, but you don't say how. You also choose to actually ignore the content of a counter-argument, and then proceed to misinterpret its significance as a counter by referencing to a historical fact. The fact is substantial, your theory is not.




GaraKira said:


> you might ask how it could've ened without that ultimatum. I would say; Come on, you don't really believe a couple of kamikazes could threaten the existence of america, do you? lol.



Yes, I do ask, because you are so persistent in saying that such an alternative exists. So before you have any further comments on my counter you should perhaps try to prove your stance as valid before trying to attack my credibility.

A couple of kamikazes is not the case. Japan's military high command was in control of the country, and the entire population was lead to believe that their emperor and entire lives were just true to the very ideal of a "divine wind". Incidentally, that was a great tool for the army because it left them with quite a few thousand individuals to use against the US.

FYI, when invading cities, it was highly necessary for the armies in WWII to have infantry. When the US were to invade complex cities such as Tokyo and Hiroshima then they would require alot of infantry, and when infantry encounter suicide-bombers it normally goes really bad. But this is speculation.



GaraKira said:


> oh and Also, to prove that your comprehension is on shamefull level:
> 
> you shouldn't be so confident if you're not familiar with a common figure of speach.



That is a saying? A common figure of speech? Hm, do amuse me with some proof for this, at least. 



GaraKira said:


> exactly, I didn't have to read the whole thing to grasp the idea of what it included. After the idea was grasped I understood that you failed to comprehend my point.



Then you are not eligible to counter it.



GaraKira said:


> See arrow owning earlier in this post.



Your "diagram" shows at best a monologue. There is no progress of discussion in it, and if at best it were to resemble progress as in deductive reasoning you still fail at countering my point. I wrote that your argument was based on a false premise, which means that its conclusion is wrong by default.



GaraKira said:


> it's not the information itself. It's you. You throw yourself into the discussion
> talking about how "america almost single handedly supports the world's larget organization fighting for peace" to prove america's innocence. Which doesn't really say much against my point, which was: bashing on japan's former actions is wrong in this situation, since America isn't exactly the most innocent country throughout history either.



I do not try to prove America's innocence. Don't try to put those words into my mouth, twirp. Compare the atrocities commited by Japan to those of the US. The Rape of Nanking dwarfs practically everything second to Turkey's slaughtering of Armenians. 

Your point was that bashing Japan is wrong because the US does not state a better example? Wow, I suppose I didn't need to attack that because it has nothing to do with the discussion about Japan's military history. Oh but wait, you prefer to state opinions and not bring up any historical evidence relevant to the discussion.

So I have left your point unadressed. Fine, I will treat it. 
In a discussion about Japan rearming it is fully understandable that the US has an interesting point of view. Your opinion is that the US are worse than the Japanese as regards acts of cruelty? Well then, let's test the historic validity of that claim:

Japan's offenses:
Rape of Nanking
Battle of Singapore
Sook Ching massacre
Unit 731

US's offenses:
Imprisonment of Japanese citizens
Execution of Axis Commanders at Brandenburg

Wait, that is just a tad too short a list. Truly there must be more? Oh, after Japan was demilitarised? Sure:

United Nations Iraq-Kuwait Observation Mission (oh nuts, no more Iraqi harassment)
Battle of Mogadishu (oh nuts, civil revolt)
United Nations Protection Force (oh nuts, Milosevic was put away)

So let's see where you are taking this discussion. Because the US actually contributes with peacekeeping forces and tries to uphold international laws by doing so... they are bad. Meanwhilst, Japan, for numerous war-crimes is convicted and charged with not being allowed to rearm at all. Yeah, the Japanese people probably accepted it like snapping your fingers. Hm, giving up Manchuria was just peanuts in being left alive, eh?

How about we test some historical documents on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Here are my references:

1. Lawrence Aronsen and Martin Kitchen, The Origins of the Cold War in comparative perspective American, British and Canadian relations with the Soviet Union 1941-48 (Hong Kong, China: The MacMillan Press ltd. 1988)

2. Justus D. Doenecke and Mark A. Stoler, Debating Franklin D. Roosevelt's Foreign Policies 1933-1945 (USA: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, inc. 2005)

3.  Peter G. Boyle, American-Soviet relations from the Russian Revolution to the fall of Communism (London, England: Routledge, 1993)



But honestly, your failure lies in not countering my counter-argument, see. It's because you do not promote a proper argument for your opinion, you just try to tear down others'. And when you fail at that you stand left with nothing. Think about it.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 22, 2006)

Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :

- Not having mlitary force
- Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism

Japan will soon build full military force, that means the amerikan army who were stationed in Japan since WW2 end will all fulled back to their country. Japanese youth will also taught about Patriotism, I'm sure they will remember the terrible things the amerikan did to them including the racial rape the amerikan did to Japanese girls in Okinawa 2002 ago.


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## Doc. Q (Dec 22, 2006)

this is a bad thing.

too much political freedom leads to increased likelyhood of war. And I'm a coward.


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## Kayo (Dec 22, 2006)

Why is that a bad thing when every other country can build up a military force?


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## Asmodeus (Dec 22, 2006)

And the idea of them starting a war with us _excites_ you? Does that not seem kind of strange? 

Of course the Japanese know about what happened to them. They the most technologically advanced and most eduacted nation on the planet. They know exactly what happened to them. What that means is that state-sponsored nationalism is now allowed again. 

As far as the military is concerned, with the powder keg of North Korea and China's rapid expansion onto the world scene, I think them having a military is a good thing. I mean, it'll fuck up the Ghost in the Shell continuity (only on a board like this would that get mentioned, lol) but seriously, it was something that needed to happen. As long as they don't start raining Gundam's on people's heads, I don't care.

Also, what is your source for this? I mean, you say this, but nothing backs it up. Show me an article or something.


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## Megaharrison (Dec 22, 2006)

Ahahahahaha the JAPANESE complaining about past "crimes" done to them? The Japanese have a histroy of doing some of the most horrific acts in human history.

The Japanese were quite lucky to be occupied by the Americans after WW2. The Imperial family was allowed to stay in place, America rebuilt the country and kept it a Japanese run democracy, and America even provided it with protection. The asian nations that fell under Japanese occupation during the war faced slavery, medical experimentation, rapes, pillages, and racial discrimination.


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## Kayo (Dec 22, 2006)

Asmodeus said:


> And the idea of them starting a war with us _excites_ you? Does that not seem kind of strange?
> 
> Of course the Japanese know about what happened to them. They the most technologically advanced and most eduacted nation on the planet. They know exactly what happened to them. What that means is that state-sponsored nationalism is now allowed again.
> 
> ...



I don't feel threatened by Japan, who said they would start a war? 
It's you guys who feel threatened by every country that build up their military force, like it is something hostile against you.


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## Asmodeus (Dec 22, 2006)

Kayo said:


> I don't feel threatened by Japan, who said they would start a war?
> It's you guys who feel threatened by every country that build up their military force, like it is something hostile against you.



You're Swiss, right? (resists military joke)...nvm, lol

Look, I don't care. The thread starter was who I was addressing, not you. And Megaharrison was right, the nuclear blast was _kindness_ compared to what they did to China and other Asian countries during WWII. I mean, more people died, but you die pretty quickly in a nuclear blast. You don't endure months of soul-killing slave labor and brutal torture. 

As I said, I think a Japanese military will help stabilize the region. With another viable military power in the region, North Korea will have to back off. If what you are saying is true and not just baseless ranting, then I think it will be an interesting development.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

Hey, how's that bio warfare against China going, still not recognizing it? 

America is the best thing to happen to Japan like ever. Who else forced it to catch up with the rest of the world twice? A new age my ass. The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

You guys want to be independent? Fine. Enjoy your AIDS when China feels desperate for women.


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## Kayo (Dec 22, 2006)

Asmodeus said:


> You're Swiss, right? (resists military joke)...nvm, lol
> 
> Look, I don't care. The thread starter was who I was addressing, not you. And Megaharrison was right, the nuclear blast was _kindness_ compared to what they did to China and other Asian countries during WWII. I mean, more people died, but you die pretty quickly in a nuclear blast. You don't endure months of soul-killing slave labor and brutal torture.
> 
> As I said, I think a Japanese military will help stabilize the region. With another viable military power in the region, North Korea will have to back off. If what you are saying is true and not just baseless ranting, then I think it will be an interesting development.



Oh, and you are an American right??
If you didn't adress to me use the quote button so your message doesn't mislead people.


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## Vicious-chan (Dec 22, 2006)

I need to really keep up with current events, is there an article about this? XD

And I don't think Japan, if they built a military power, would start any new war. One great thing about the Japanese is that they learn from their mistakes. The most people who visit the Arizona's sunken ruins at pearl harbor are Japanese tourists. It's a place they go and reflect the mistakes of their ancestors. I would go so far as many are ashamed of it. 

About what americans have done to them, well, I know there were accounts of rape.. I'm hoping they were all punished, but I am unsure myself. I do know, however, that the Japanese men aren't also very.. hmm.. kind to their women either. It's horrible to be a Japanese woman in Japan. They are quite sexist. Oh well.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

Vicious-Chan said:
			
		

> One great thing about the Japanese is that they learn from their mistakes.



So that's why they don't teach their children of what happened in a manner akin Holacaust denial?


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## Jannoy (Dec 22, 2006)

I won't believe it until I see an article from a reliable source. And since the OP hasn't don't anything about it...

^ The incorrect grammar in the 1st post really reduces the credibility and the truthfulness of this story.


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## Vicious-chan (Dec 22, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> So that's why they don't teach their children of what happened in a manner akin Holacaust denial?



Really? I was unaware of that. But I do know that they do at least seem to feel shame when it comes to WWII in general and their actions when it came to pearl harbor. Either way, even if they build a military force, it wouldn't compare to the United State's. Amazing enough, our military technology is far more advanced than the rest of the world and our army is one of the largest. It'd be rather futile to cause a war especially since the US has been on "world police" mode >.>


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

Jannoy said:


> I won't believe it until I see an article from a reliable source. And since the OP hasn't don't anything about it...





Nevermind we had a thread on this exact same subject a week ago 



			
				Vicious-Chan said:
			
		

> Really? I was unaware of that. But I do know that they do at least seem to feel shame when it comes to WWII in general and their actions when it came to pearl harbor.



Yeah right. If they felt shame they'd apologize for the goddamn Rape of Nanking and Unit 731. They feel shame to the US because they lost and had it quite visible, if they can get around it they ignore the gross atrocities they've commited. They decry the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, even though along with the Soviet invasion of manchuria it finally forced the fuckers to submit.



			
				Vicious-Chan said:
			
		

> Either way, even if they build a military force, it wouldn't compare to the United State's. Amazing enough, our military technology is far more advanced than the rest of the world and our army is one of the largest. It'd be rather futile to cause a war especially since the US has been on "world police" mode >.>



protip: Japan gets most of it's tech from the US.

I agree it would be futile, but not because of an army size (no, that honor rests in the carriers). I'd still rather not have them touch of a regional arms race since the rest of Asia is still nervous about Japan after World War II.


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## Jannoy (Dec 22, 2006)

Whatever happened to the Interpol? Hmm...

EDIT; I read the article, I rest my case. I'll leave it at that. 
Ho ho ho... Santa, is that you?


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## Lord of Mikawa (Dec 22, 2006)

That's good. Every country should have a military simply for the reason of defending itself.


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## thedisturbedone (Dec 22, 2006)

What if they wage another war though?


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## CoonDawg (Dec 22, 2006)

Well, I think Japan and America is far too close for anything bad to happen at all (But then again, ever see the South Park episode "Chinpokomon"?), but I don't think it's a very necessary thing.

See, first off our military being over there over so many years helped us bond with them very very well, and brought the two cultures very close (Sadly, American culture polluted theres so that they hardly speak Japanese anymore).

Second, I hope this won't change their culture. If they are teaching them different things in school, over the years they might change and possibly turn more hostile.

I don't really think "Patriotism" is much required in Japan. It's definitely not a bad thing, I just don't think Japan REQUIRES it. In fact it kinda scares me. Are they going to start teaching them the OLD kind of patriotism, or just the normal kind?

Old = Kamikaze.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

CoonDawg said:


> See, first off our military being over there over so many years helped us bond with them very very well, and brought the two cultures very close (Sadly, American culture polluted theres so that they hardly speak Japanese anymore).



I must express an utter puzzulment for this. Business-wise we're quite tied by the tail, but culturally? The incident of the crucified Santa Claus comes to mind, there's radical difference to say the least. Engrish is in use, but it's hardly the dominant language by any stretch.


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## Sky is Over (Dec 22, 2006)

japan doesn't need a military, just a larger self-defense force and more justification to fight other nations; many countries like Israel(can someone name other countries?) have SDF's and actually manage quite well against military threats; and wouldn't it worry you that if they started up with this, they'd transfer from an economic power to a military one?


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## Gooba (Dec 22, 2006)

I think they are most likely going to be allies with the US.  We have so many business ties over there, and them over here.  It is such a bad idea to make an enemy out of us, especially considering they are going to need to start fresh with their military.  It would be very foolish to get on the bad side of the current economic and military leader for no real reason, especially when there is so much profit to be made from friendship.


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## Tsukasa009 (Dec 22, 2006)

i think this is a good thing Japan deserves some slack


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## Ludwig The Holy Blade (Dec 22, 2006)

Okay, so I've said this before in another thread but I'll repeat it anyway. The Japanese person who I spoke to was well aware of the part Japan had in the holocaust. She said she had learned it in class

Yes I am speaking of one person, but it showed me that they may not be lying about the holocaust as much as is sometimes reported, or they may be loosening up on the subject. 

But it could be a total coincidence that she was taught about it and most other Japanese schools teach it.


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## GaraKira (Dec 22, 2006)

Are you guys talking about THE Holocaust? hitler -> jews ?.. japan had anything to do with that? :S

anyywayy

"I aint a killer but don't push me
Revenge is the sweetest Joy next to getting pussy"
- 2pac shakur

I bet if japan ever get its hands on a nuclear bomb, we should all prepare to say bye bye LA..lol

lol. I bet the japanese tourists at pearl harbor are all like: "the fuckers nuked us and this was all we were able to do?? Kzooo" 

Anyway, america will probobly nuke them again. You know america is the best thing to happen to japan!!! they droped two nuclear bombs on them and gave them light. undoublty the BEST thing to happen. I mean, just look at the mutation births in japan caused by radioactivity, the japanese should all thank america!! 

The us and it's world domination will someday get reeaaal fucked up. It's the british empire all over again. 

but I wonder what would happen to japan if they were to nuke San fran or LA. I bet the whole japanese island would get wiped out of existance. and no one would say a darn thing to the americans.

it's quite fucked up for america to stick it's nose into japans affairs of bulding an army or teaching nationalism.


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## CoonDawg (Dec 22, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> I must express an utter puzzulment for this. Business-wise we're quite tied by the tail, but culturally? The incident of the crucified Santa Claus comes to mind, there's radical difference to say the least. Engrish is in use, but it's hardly the dominant language by any stretch.



Take a look at downtown Japan. ALot of their signs have English slogans or are at least spelled with roman characters. And alot of their phases are English, too.

Anyway, anyone thinking the Japanese are going to "turn on us" is kind of... Well, dumb (No offense).

Japan is one of our very best allies. I can't see anything changing as soon as the ban is lifted. It's not like they're going to board boats and go invade us or anything. In 30 years we may lose some of our friendliness, but I could say that about any allied country.

Japan is a great friend of ours. We get along excellently, and while we did nuke them, I'm pretty sure they've forgiven us... We have paid them back, since we've helped them out a ton over the years.

Anyway, Japan and America (And the rest of the world) is faaaaaaar too well integrated with the rest of the world. Even if the governments started creating friction, our two economies would never, ever allow it. We wouldn't allow it! Can you imagine no more video games, anime or crappy J-pop?! The American youth would throw protests and burn buildings


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## Kayo (Dec 22, 2006)

There are many events the European and American schools doesn't teach in their school either. The events that happends 1500-1800 when many European countries got their ass handed doesn't get passed on the students and get's erased from history. So I say sure, if Japan doesn't want to teach their students thing like this let them not do it.

Don't get me wrong now, I don't think this is right but we are doing the same thing so why shouldn't they?


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## CoonDawg (Dec 22, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> Are you guys talking about THE Holocaust? hitler -> jews ?.. japan had anything to do with that? :S
> 
> anyywayy
> 
> ...



That was a pretty ridiculous comment.

The reason the military ban was put in place was because when we took over Japan, they were STILL HOSTILE. Remember, we took over the country by force. What were we to do, leave and let them rebuild and do it all over again?

I will agree, 62 years is very excessive, it should have stopped around '70 or the '80s.

Japan will not nuke us and we will not nuke them. In fact it's impossible. It would take them years to create a nuclear bomb, and we'd know about it long before they finished it.

I don't disagree with you, I just think you're plain wrong. Alot of what you have said simply doesn't apply or make any sense at all. I think you need to research Japan in WWII and the aftermath.


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## Kayo (Dec 22, 2006)

Lol? when the hell did US take over Japan? they told them to stop being isolated and forced them to trade with america.


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## CoonDawg (Dec 22, 2006)

Kayo said:


> Lol? when the hell did US take over Japan? they told them to stop being isolated and forced them to trade with america.



Bad choice of words. I don't mean we took it over in the sense that we own it... But we WERE stationed in it for many years and forced change.

I suppose I should have said destroyed it, because that's technically what we did do.


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## RyRyMini (Dec 22, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> Are you guys talking about THE Holocaust? hitler -> jews ?.. japan had anything to do with that? :S


 
Oh yeah. 

-They invaded Indonesia, and didn't allow the countries to profit from their own rice, which resulted in a huge famine.

-10 MILLION people were murdered by Japanese alone over time. 

After further research, I found this:
"Special Japanese military units conducted experiments on civilians and POWs in China..._To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim?s upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments..._Furthermore, "tens of thousands, and perhaps as many 200,000, Chinese died of bubonic plague, cholera, anthrax and other diseases"


And I'm sure the list goes on. Did/do you learn anything in school?


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## GaraKira (Dec 22, 2006)

CoonDawg said:


> I don't disagree with you, I just think you're plain wrong. Alot of what you have said simply doesn't apply or make any sense at all. I think you need to research Japan in WWII and the aftermath.



I think you should understand when I'm beeing sarcastic. I don't think they're ognna nuke you..omg.. but I think there's a possiblity if they get a crazy leader sometime, hence the 2pac quote.

and thanks for seeing how redicilous my post was, I did it to emphasize how stupid it sounds when people completely ignore how the nuking affected japan.



RyRyMini said:


> Oh yeah.
> 
> -They invaded Indonesia, and didn't allow the countries to profit from their own rice, which resulted in a huge famine.
> 
> ...



This is the first time I ever hear of this!.. Norwegian history classes suck ass. we learned mostly about europe. which isn't so strange though.. hehe.


EDIT:: I don't know if this is just an evil rumor, but I've heard that many japanese people are racists, and that you could get denied access to, for example a store, simply because you're not japanese. Is this true?.. lol.


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## kulgan18 (Dec 22, 2006)

Yea the japanese committed crimes but do we need to remind ourselves the crimes other countries committed and ARE committing right now as we speak at a certain location *points at Southwest Asia*. 

IF anybody america should prohibit ITSELF of teaching nationalism.

Is very hypocritical that people complain about japan history and look at them with distrust, who are the ones starting wars and killing people today?? Is not japan i tell you that.
If you think that nationalisms is stupid and they are the cause of most wars, i  agree, but things start in home. 

And why do people worry about? Am pretty sure japan will be side by side the US the next time they decide to invade Iran, syria or north korea. But i'll tell you is probably not gonna look too good for them. LOL SUCKERS.

In any case have you guys heard about the case of the kidnapped japanese by North korea?
I saw something about it in the tv the other day, am pretty sure all this has something to do with that in a way. Japan is preparing itself against North Korea.


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## DragonHeart52 (Dec 22, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...



At this stage of Japan's economic development, they should take charge of their own military.  I agree that it is past time for the US to continue its military presence there.  As far as your statement about racial rape, before you point fingers, take time to look at Japan's treatment of women in occupied countries during World War II (which could be included in "nationalism" education).  Rape, forcing them to become "comfort women" to the occupying forces, and genocide.  I'm not defending the actions of any man who rapes, but pointing out that there is a particular low element in _all_ societies that seem to think that sort of behavior is acceptable under any circumstances.  In the past 60+ years, Japan has prospered by doing what it has always done best: learning and adapting.  The discipline and sense of community, goal setting, and hard work have helped it to prosper.  Now it has to maintain that momentum and exercise its authority to establish its own security/military forces.

Out of all the Japanese scholars I have met, I never had the experience of any one of them not having knowledge or lacking pride in his/her national heritage.  Your version of "nationalism" tied to reports of acts intended to inflame reflects a rather skewed version of what nationalism means and I find it mildly troubling.  The more I learn about my own country, the more I realize the distance we have to go to live up to our ideals; however, we can never correct faults if we don't acknowledge that we have them, as individuals and as nations.

Congratulations to Japan upon entering this New Age.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> Anyway, america will probobly nuke them again. You know america is the best thing to happen to japan!!! they droped two nuclear bombs on them and gave them light. undoublty the BEST thing to happen. I mean, just look at the mutation births in japan caused by radioactivity, the japanese should all thank america!!



You're a blistering retard, you know that right? Who restructured Japan after the war they started? The US. Who forced them to modernize in the first place? The US.

I guess you're one of those people who'd rather we launched Olympic or starved them into submission thus making shitloads more casualtires then a platry 200,000. Kindly die. 



GaraKira said:


> but I wonder what would happen to japan if they were to nuke San fran or LA. I bet the whole japanese island would get wiped out of existance. and no one would say a darn thing to the americans.



That's because it's an act of nuclear war, and invites "disprotionate response." That's been the US doctrine for ages. 



GaraKira said:


> it's quite fucked up for america to stick it's nose into japans affairs of bulding an army or teaching nationalism.



Nevermind the fact that Japan is instilling a sense _they did nothing wrong_ during the pacific war and utterly ignore the Rape of Nanking. Seeing a jingoistic state re-arming has worked so well in the past, hasn't it? Remember that 3rd Reich?


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## sting666 (Dec 22, 2006)

I don't really care much about what goes on in Japan, but I hope they remember that the WW2 military actions the US took were just.


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## Black Swan (Dec 22, 2006)

Japan will never need nukes with their advances in robotics its a matter of time before they come out with a gundam military unit. 

To the whole argument about the US being great for Japan. The US did it not only to help the Japanese but also to help themselves, which is a smart thing. It was all part of the The Marshall plan which was quite ingenious and that rectified one of the major mistakes of WW1. To bad they cant implement that into Iraq and Afghanistan.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 22, 2006)

Black Swan said:


> Japan will never need nukes with their advances in robotics its a matter of time before they come out with a gundam military unit



*pets his tank guns*



Black Swan said:


> To the whole argument about the US being great for Japan. The US did it not help them only for the sake of the Japanese but for themselves, which is a smart thing. It was all part of the The Marshall plan which was quite ingenious and that rectified one of the major mistakes of WW1. To bad they cant implement that into Iraq and Afghanistan.



Give the poster a cookie for discussing motives. The Japanese still profitted immensely (restructuring themselves into a modern industrial power that stood out on the world stage from virtually nothing) nonetheless as a side effect of American actions. Hence America = best thing to happen to Japan.


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## Hardtack (Dec 22, 2006)

The US and Japan have strong ties and that is not likely to change one bit if the US no longer has military bases over there.  Plus, if Japan does build up a strong military of their own, the business will most likely go to US defense contractors - something mutually beneficial for both nations.


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## Razgriez (Dec 23, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...



Sounds like an act of war in my opinion.



> The US and Japan have strong ties and that is not likely to change one bit if the US no longer has military bases over there. Plus, if Japan does build up a strong military of their own, the business will most likely go to US defense contractors - something mutually beneficial for both nations.


I know of 2 Airforce bases in mainland Japan that operate today. Tried even getting stationed over there for a few years.

Gundams are pretty cool and all but they are very impracticale. In this day in age of precision bombing from miles upon miles away and how offensive weaponry is far stronger then any plated armor available something big and giant like a gundam would be blown to pieces by a tactical bomber/fighter in seconds or a cruise missile from a cruiser 60 miles away.

I could see something like terminator or some sort of suit from mech warrior that would improve combat abilities in urban warfare but out in the open even tanks have become easy targets from helicopters, bombers, and ballistic missiles.


----------



## ANBUBooBoo (Dec 23, 2006)

What the hell?

Why is it that so many people in this thread are taking the fact that Japan now has the ABILITY to create a military as an open declaration of war on the United States? 

Japan now is not the same as Japan in WWII. I mean, there are barely any WWII vets left in the world anymore. 
It's great that they can have their own army now. I don't see why some people think they can't be "trusted" to have one. Hell, I'd say there are at least a few countries who could do a better job with a huge army than the US is doing, but somehow they're the ones imposing regulations on everyone else.

The ammount of baseless fear in the North American society really is mindblowing.


----------



## Lain (Dec 23, 2006)

Wait... you mean all this time we've still been bossing them around?
Damn. Well I guess this means Japan is going pwn at more things now. DDR, and now military. Although if they really intend on expanding their own military, then that means they'll need more land... and they don't have a whole lot. Hope this doesn't turn into a huge deforesting thing.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 23, 2006)

*Other taboo laws that made under u.s.a pressure to the Japanese*

Other than 2 of the taboo laws I have mentioned before, there are several others :

- Not allowing the Japanese Empire to involve on any of Japan political issue including on the Japanese leadership.
- Paying a humongous war debt for the u.s.a

That is all I can remember, there are a few other laws that was made under u.s.a pressure to "chain" Japan since the end of WW2.

If anyone here said, it is because of the u.s.a the Japanese are advanced. They are only dreaming and hoping to get benefits of other country advancement. Since it is because of the Japanese war debt payment that help the u.s.a to be rich. No american who involved on any of the Japanese technology development including developing the smart robot, become an engineer on any of the Japanese Electronic Company [ such as on SONY ] or at any other of the Japanese company. Japan whould have been more advanced than now if the u.s.a not chaining Japan with those laws.
Anyway, you can't force other country to follow your own culture and believes even for whatever reason nor it is bad or good, if american said they give democracy to Japanese then they have forgot the meaining of democracy itself. Is it democracy to force other peoples to follow your believes? No Japanese asking democracy to the u.s.a.


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## GaraKira (Dec 23, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Who restructured Japan after the war they started? The US. Who forced them to modernize in the first place?



America, god's gift to the eart. But only after they fucked them up the ass though. 



That NOS Guy said:


> I guess you're one of those people who'd rather we launched Olympic or starved them into submission thus making shitloads more casualtires



well. That's what you did in iraq during the saddam regime, which by the way you supported in his rise to power. ohh noo..that can't be?,. america only does good deeds and modernixes countries.. right?



That NOS Guy said:


> then a platry 200,000. Kindly die.



:amazed 
are you fucking kidding me?.. you think beeing nuked is a kind death? shit, even Hitler wouldn't say that. and wtf.. PALTRY 200, 000?? PALTRY?? jesus christ. wow.





That NOS Guy said:


> Nevermind the fact that Japan is instilling a sense _they did nothing wrong_ during the pacific war and utterly ignore the Rape of Nanking. Seeing a jingoistic state re-arming has worked so well in the past, hasn't it? Remember that 3rd Reich?



dude, I don't know anything about japans history, nor the rape of nanking or whatever.. and I don't care. my point still stands: it's fucked up for america to stick it's nose in places it don't belong. because, anyway you slice it, the things you are saying there would also apply to america. So how come america is allowed to be armed, and be a nuclear super power nevertheless. That's the fucking peak of hypocrisy.


----------



## Figure 0.9 (Dec 23, 2006)

CoonDawg said:


> Anyway, Japan and America (And the rest of the world) is faaaaaaar too well integrated with the rest of the world. Even if the governments started creating friction, our two economies would never, ever allow it. We wouldn't allow it! Can you imagine no more video games, anime or crappy J-pop?! The American youth would throw protests and burn buildings



That's what I would do no one takes my manga away when they do It's war.


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## Toby (Dec 23, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> America, god's gift to the eart. But only after they fucked them up the ass though.



You are absolutely right. They should have "fucked them up the ass" after helping them out.  



GaraKira said:


> well. That's what you did in iraq during the saddam regime, which by the way you supported in his rise to power. ohh noo..that can't be?,. america only does good deeds and modernixes countries.. right?



That's right. They almost single-handedly finance the world's most important organisation working for world peace, despite disagreeing with some of its decisions. So undemocratic. So primitive. So evil.



GaraKira said:


> :amazed
> are you fucking kidding me?.. you think beeing nuked is a kind death? shit, even Hitler wouldn't say that. and wtf.. PALTRY 200, 000?? PALTRY?? jesus christ. wow.







			
				MILITARY DOCUMENT; HOOOOO~! said:
			
		

> 6. Status of Targets
> 
> A. Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Force would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise. These targets are:
> 
> ...



Wow, thanks, Doctor Truth!



GaraKira said:


> dude, I don't know anything about japans history...



...Well then.



GaraKira said:


> nor the rape of nanking or whatever...



...Ok.



GaraKira said:


> .. and I don't care.



Ah, right. 



GaraKira said:


> my point still stands



No it doesn't. Having made a comment on something you neither know anything about or even care about shows a complete lack of relevant arguments when the discussion requires a certain level of context. The only hypocrite is the person spouting uncertainties and logical fallacies.


----------



## kulgan18 (Dec 23, 2006)

> That's right. They almost single-handedly finance the world's most important organisation working for world peace, despite disagreeing with some of its decisions. So undemocratic. So primitive. So evil.



Are you talking about the UN?? Because U.S just made it completly useless in keeping peace the minute they step up over it.

Basically the U.N was only good to the US when it served American interest. It was great in giving political leverage against the Soviets, Now that they are gone is useless. 
There is no such things as GOOD DEEDS in a country's logic, they move by the logic of what is good for them.
IF you completly devastate a a country infrastructure and political system, you have to rebuild it or is gonna start haunting you in the future, and is gonna be more expensive. 

And also powerful countries like stability, otherwise their economies shakes, and their economies are everything. Thats why if something happens in Kosovo everybody move their asses to stop it right away, some genocide happens in Africa? they just wait to see what happens. Simple economics.


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## GaraKira (Dec 23, 2006)

Toby christ. You completely ignore my points ant try to take my stuff out of context, then you proceed to make a meaningless point.

I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past. You just completely and utterly owned yourself.

and then you give me some link about the bombings, (which btw I cannot be bothered to read).. wtf?.. did you get my point at all?.. the dude is saying that nuking someone is a QUOTE: *KIND DEATH*, UNQUOTE. he also says that the 200 000 innocent persons killed were PALTRY.. LIKE WTF??  how can you possibly stand by anyone who says : "the 200 000 lifes were meaningless humans, and they died a kind death by us nuking them"

dude.. I'm fucking speachless.


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## Sky is Over (Dec 23, 2006)

thinking about it, japan doesn't need the right to an army, just something to expand it and allow them to have an air force and navy. And why should you fight when you have the world's super power literally covering you and ready to retaliate when attacked? And another interesting question is that would they add more of a commitment against the war on terror?


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> America, god's gift to the eart. But only after they fucked them up the ass though.



After a war _they_ started. We didn't have to help shit. 



GaraKira said:


> well. That's what you did in iraq during the saddam regime, which by the way you supported in his rise to power. ohh noo..that can't be?,. america only does good deeds and modernixes countries.. right?



Uh no. The systematic halting of all sea traffic in Japan and/or Operation Olympic (because if you don't know what this is, you shouldn't be talking) would've resulted in _millions_ of dead. 

You're under this impression that I'm only waving Americas flag out of blind patriotism and think we do no evil. It must be convienent for your little mind to slot people into preconceived notions. 



GaraKira said:


> are you fucking kidding me?.. you think beeing nuked is a kind death? shit, even Hitler wouldn't say that. and wtf.. PALTRY 200, 000?? PALTRY?? jesus christ. wow.



Where did I say it was a kind death? 200,000 compared to millions. Stimson was right when he called it "the least abhorrent option."



GaraKira said:


> dude, I don't know anything about japans history, nor the rape of nanking or whatever..



You're talking why again? 



GaraKira said:


> and I don't care. my point still stands: it's fucked up for america to stick it's nose in places it don't belong.



Oh yes, continue to allow genocides to happen under that auspice. Good show lad. Japan re-arming has enormous consequences for America as a pacific power, it has every right to have a stake in the situation. 



GaraKira said:


> because, anyway you slice it, the things you are saying there would also apply to america.



Like denying mass atrocites? Hardly. 



GaraKira said:


> So how come america is allowed to be armed, and be a nuclear super power nevertheless. That's the fucking peak of hypocrisy.



A.) We invented the fuckers
B.) We don't engage in policies that gloss over history
C.) We don't have a history of being an expansionist overseas power even when we're at the height of madness, and even when we've recieved overseas land (The Phillipines) we let it go 50 years later after helping it along to independence. 

Would you rather have the Chinese?


----------



## kulgan18 (Dec 23, 2006)

> After a war they started. We didn't have to help shit.



Of course not, but take a good look at what they did to germany after world war 1, basically the allies imposed a serius of really insane reparation policies economic blockade included, and what do you know german economy collapsed and that was just in time for hitler and the nazis to exploit that. 
THAT was the real cause of WW2.

Basically they drove Germany to starve to death. And Exploiting people in despair is very easy.

US didnt "have" to help japan, is called LEARNING FROM HISTORY. If you cause a country to starve to death that bitterness cab very easily come to bite you in the ass later.

I stand by my point until america stop invading countries its got NOT ground to tell japan what to do. Forget about WW2 about something 30 years ago like vietnam?, talking about genocide. Now If iraq now turns into something even worse...

From what i learned so far i think this decision has nothing to do with america and ALL to do with North Korea, basically the case of the kidnapped japanese has caused a wave of nationalism in japan, even some moderate voices say japan should be prepared to defend themselves from them. 
Basically america has no moral ground to tell them anything.


----------



## GaraKira (Dec 23, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> After a war _they_ started. We didn't have to help shit.



so, let me get this right. If some unarmed dude punches you in the face, you automatically have the right to kill him?



That NOS Guy said:


> Uh no. The systematic halting of all sea traffic in Japan and/or Operation Olympic (because if you don't know what this is, you shouldn't be talking) would've resulted in _millions_ of dead.



wtf dude. you just said that your country are cowards. Why not just go toe to toe with the millitary. Why the fuck affect the civilians? why does it have to be "either millions or hundreads of thousands".. how about 2-3 thousand millitary targets? that's the same tactic Israel uses. once it realises it can't win over hezbollah, it starts raping the civilan population in desperation. How about the US army took their fleet out and whopped the jappo fleet. Why bring in all the milllioons ? COWARDS. hey, you said yourself.

it's like saying "ok dude, you punched me. now I have two choices.. I'll etiher kill you, or chop off one of your legs.. hmmm".. how about simply knocking him out?




That NOS Guy said:


> You're under this impression that I'm only waving Americas flag out of blind patriotism and think we do no evil.



which you have managed to prove fairly well.



That NOS Guy said:


> Japan re-arming has enormous consequences for America as a pacific power, it has every right to have a stake in the situation.



if japan wanna create an independant self defense force, then america can fuck off. You're basiclly justifying monopoly and dictatorship.





That NOS Guy said:


> Like denying mass atrocites? Hardly.



true. you don't deny them. You just tend to forget about them. How about the millions of indianos murdered so america could becomed "yours".?




That NOS Guy said:


> A.) We invented the fuckers



so, what you're saying is; if i invent something myself that is threatning to man kind, then I have a right to keep it and america wouldn't come knocking on my door?



That NOS Guy said:


> B.) We don't engage in policies that gloss over history



I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here. I'm not an english professor from oxford. 

what exactly does "Glossing" over something mean? 



That NOS Guy said:


> C.) We don't have a history of being an expansionist overseas power even when we're at the height of madness, and even when we've recieved overseas land (The Phillipines) we let it go 50 years later after helping it along to independence.



yet you forget how you got to the place you live in right now. Those indians just invited you to come and slaughter them, right?

besides.. you just go and get what you want from those countries.. you go to the south east asia to destroy communism so your ideology can live on. then you go to afghanistan for the gass pipes you wanna build, the opium, and the startegic signifigance-> now you proceed down to the middle east for the oil, gass and Halleburton deals. yeah, you're not an expansionist overseas power. you're just a self centered leaching overseas power.


----------



## That NOS Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

kulgan18 said:


> Of course not, but take a good look at what they did to germany after world war 1, basically the allies imposed a serius of really insane reparation policies economic blockade included, and what do you know german economy collapsed and that was just in time for hitler and the nazis to exploit that.
> THAT was the real cause of WW2.
> 
> Basically they drove Germany to starve to death. And Exploiting people in despair is very easy.
> ...



Give the poster a cookie for explaining the rationale behind the Marshall Plan. The US is still largely responsible for building a country back up from scratch when after their defeat as an aggressor. Altruism doesn't exist in politics, but don't shrink from calling a favor a favor. 



kulgan18 said:


> I stand by my point until america stop invading countries its got NOT ground to tell japan what to do. Forget about WW2 about something 30 years ago like vietnam?, talking about genocide. Now If iraq now turns into something even worse...



Vietnam is closer to 40, but eh. IIRC that was a war in _defense_ of another country, not an invasion proper. If we want to talk about genocide in Vietnam, that's a far-reaching claim. Elaborate. 

Iraq, our great mistake. You'd think overturning a congress and considerable pressure to get our ass in order there would show the Americans have largely said "fuck this" to neocon dogma. 



kulgan18 said:


> From what i learned so far i think this decision has nothing to do with america and ALL to do with North Korea, basically the case of the kidnapped japanese has caused a wave of nationalism in japan, even some moderate voices say japan should be prepared to defend themselves from them. Basically america has no moral ground to tell them anything.



Add to that the rising anxiety about China, increasingly nationalistic overtones to return to the good ole days when the Japanese were the masters of the western Pacific, and you've got yourself a root cause. 

I'm puzzled as to what Japan needs to do besides bring a credible TBM defense to "defend themselves" against the DPRK.


----------



## That NOS Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> so, let me get this right. If some unarmed dude punches you in the face, you automatically have the right to kill him?



Unarmed, Japan, World War II? _WHAT?_



GaraKira said:


> wtf dude. you just said that your country are cowards. Why not just go toe to toe with the millitary.



We wiped their navy from the Pacific you fuck. Try telling the USMC they're a bunch of cowards.

Where the hell do you think this picture comes from? 





GaraKira said:


> Why the fuck affect the civilians? why does it have to be "either millions or hundreads of thousands".. how about 2-3 thousand millitary targets?



You're an idiot. Japan had prepared civilians to _charge the invaders with bamboo spears_. Millions of them. That's excluding American casulaties and the inevitable crossfire deaths.



GaraKira said:


> it's like saying "ok dude, you punched me. now I have two choices.. I'll etiher kill you, or chop off one of your legs.. hmmm".. how about simply knocking him out?



It's official, you fail. 



GaraKira said:


> which you have managed to prove fairly well.



I wonder what it's like to be a high function retard. 



GaraKira said:


> if japan wanna create an independant self defense force, then america can fuck off. You're basiclly justifying monopoly and dictatorship.



They already have that you tart. No one disagrees with the JSDF, but allowing a lifting on the ban for ofensive weapons. 



GaraKira said:


> true. you don't deny them. You just tend to forget about them. How about the millions of indianos murdered so america could becomed "yours".?



Find me a person whose forgotten about that that actually graduated High School. While we're talking about history how are those Viking raids going?



GaraKira said:


> so, what you're saying is; if i invent something myself that is threatning to man kind, then I have a right to keep it and america wouldn't come knocking on my door?



America has also demonstrated responsible use of said weapons for the past 60 years and has employed them to keep small wars from breaking into larger ones. Ask Western Europe about that.



GaraKira said:


> I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here. I'm not an english professor from oxford.
> 
> what exactly does "Glossing" over something mean?



Minimizes, denies, and outright lies about. 



GaraKira said:


> yet you forget how you got to the place you live in right now. Those indians just invited you to come and slaughter them, right?



I'm a Pennsylvanian, more specifically from the county of Bucks. Google it, see how that land was gotten. William Penn wasn't a warlord. 



GaraKira said:


> besides.. you just go and get what you want from those countries.. you go to the south east asia to destroy communism so your ideology can live on.



Yeah, that ideology that says people should be free to do what they want.



GaraKira said:


> then you go to afghanistan for the gass pipes you wanna build, the opium, and the startegic signifigance-> now you proceed down to the middle east for the oil, gass and Halleburton deals. yeah, you're not an expansionist overseas power. you're just a self centered leaching overseas power.



We went to Afganistan in response to 9/11. It's kinda hard for us to try and exploit a _resource when we have it banned_. 

Iraq was a neocon intitive which was designed to bring democracy to the middle east. It's an ideological war led by a man who wanted his name in the history books. This war is of course leeched off of by companies, of this there is no doubt, but it still remains an ideolgoical struggle at it's core.

All countries are self-centered you dip.


----------



## kulgan18 (Dec 23, 2006)

> Vietnam is closer to 40, but eh. IIRC that was a war in defense of another country, not an invasion proper. If we want to talk about genocide in Vietnam, that's a far-reaching claim. Elaborate.



Well it was an ideological war from the start, of course We could hope that Johnson had the "initial" intention to rebuild the country but that didnt mean anything in the end, they were so out of touch with the ground reality that it didnt matter. 
It ended up with an Undiscriminated use of weapons against civilans and enemys alike. Use of Agent orange, other quimicals and completly irresponsable Bombin campaings.
The civilian casualities ive seen are outrageous, 2 millions civilians killed? Some people say like 4 millions considering the people that died from diseases.

And also that caused another genocide which the US is largely responsable  the Khmer Rouge massacre im cambodia. Is sort of like a similar situation than in Iraq, the US bombs a country and the aftermath of that is even worse.

So in a way that war was a 2 times massacre.


----------



## GaraKira (Dec 23, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Unarmed, Japan, World War II? _WHAT?_




and I'm the retard?.. You come off as a fairly intellegent guy, yet you act so stupid at times it makes me wanna rip my own head off. The analogy was aimed at the Nuclear weapon, where "unarmed" means japan doesn't have nukes.. come on guy.. do we have to go through the same routine everytime? there's no point in trying to beat around the bush, or whatever you're trying to do by acting like you don't understand the analogies.



That NOS Guy said:


> We wiped their navy from the Pacific you fuck.



then why nuke'em?.. u won.. btw, thnx for the oh so mature comment.




That NOS Guy said:


> You're an idiot. Japan had prepared civilians to _charge the invaders with bamboo spears_. Millions of them. That's excluding American casulaties and the inevitable crossfire deaths.



so don't fucking invade it. it's just that easy.




That NOS Guy said:


> I wonder what it's like to be a high function retard.



take a look in the mirror.




That NOS Guy said:


> Find me a person whose forgotten about that that actually graduated High School.



YOU. The way you're going on about japan not beeing trustworthy due to their past. Well, the same goes to america. AND THAT IS THE POINT I'VE BEEN MAKING ALL THE TIME, yet you just start babbling about some other shit and try to get your way out of it. 



That NOS Guy said:


> While we're talking about history how are those Viking raids going?



way to stay on topic and stick to relevant posts. wow. and I'm the retard, eh?





That NOS Guy said:


> America has also demonstrated responsible use of said weapons for the past 60 years



not for the past 61 years though..  

also, the same goes for japan, they have been pretty calm after the nuking..




That NOS Guy said:


> I'm a Pennsylvanian, more specifically from the county of Bucks. Google it, see how that land was gotten. William Penn wasn't a warlord.



what's your point?. I was talking about the wole country as it is today. 

You would have had a point if u was livinig completely independant of everything located on "Blood-land"





That NOS Guy said:


> Yeah, that ideology that says people should be free to do what they want.


*said the voice in the Propaganda speakers.*
Wo0o0t!






That NOS Guy said:


> It's kinda hard for us to try and exploit a _resource when we have it banned_.



is that so?...you fail.





That NOS Guy said:


> All countries are self-centered you dip.



yes, but not all claim to be gods gift to mankind, you dip.


----------



## Vandal Savage (Dec 23, 2006)

I don't know why everyone is uptight about this. Japan is like one of our best allies over in the east and we are tied together by so many things at the moment. They wouldn't start a war because that would only hurt them and weaken them so their neighbors could go on the offensive. Besides it would take them years to build up a sufficient military force anyway.

I think this is more in response to North Korea than to America. North Korea is only so far away from Japan and they have an insane dictator in power their. Japan sure as hell deserves the right to build their own military and defend themselves from a threat like that. They have my blessing.


----------



## Gooba (Dec 23, 2006)

> so, let me get this right. If some unarmed dude punches you in the face, you automatically have the right to kill him?


Think of it this way:  If some military power officially declares war on you, you have the right to go to war with them.

Nukes aren't really that special, the death tolls from conventional bombings were equal.


----------



## Toby (Dec 23, 2006)

Gooba: Exactly, the bombing of Dresden killed more people than the nuclear bombing of Japan.

kulgan18: That's a good point. The kidnapped Japanese citizens and random music-stars taken for Kim Jong-Il's pleasure do piss the Japanese off. It's no wonder that countries where traditionally good manners are associated with their foreign policies tend to develop mighty navies. In fact, I'd say every great naval power has this procedure. Japan should have a navy to make North Korea fuck off, and definitely if they don't want PR China to fuck them over for the oil in the Chinese ocean.

Jetstorm: It's sort of like the undermining effect Turkey has on entering the EU. We have too many bad stories to tell about them and they won't admit what happened "that fateful night". Even if Japan has got over it, it should then be no requirement at all for them to reflect on their past and get over it. Showing a reluctancy to do so is an apparent psychological instigator for political disunity. If Japan wants someone to help them up against China's heavy weight then they should compromise by accepting a fucking truth.

That is the uptight bit. Imagine another arrogant empire like Britain today, and with the economical power to rival the US's main debt-accountant. The nations are playing very warily about who they should ally with now that the Eight-Party Treaty ensuring the Chinese sovereignty is losing its validity (in fact, I believe it to be obsolete to date).



GaraKira said:


> Toby christ. You completely ignore my points ant try to take my stuff out of context, then you proceed to make a meaningless point.



Darling, I'd be delighted if you'd muster the genius to either:
a) write in a post how I didn't ruin every single opinion you have (that's right, without evidence they're just opinions (or at best statements, but take your pick))
b) write me a PM where you prove one of your statements
c) Do me a favour and read my link Piggy. 

And if I made a single meaningless point then you just insulted inductive reasoning (it's related to what I call logic), and you fail at doing so because you cannot write the counter-argument. In fact, I think it is because you cannot write an actual argument at all.



GaraKira said:


> I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past. You just completely and utterly owned yourself.



What's that? Encyclopedic knowledge? You know that I have friends serving in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why, I'd say that qualifies both my personal interest in the matter, and certainly my interest in the foreign politics and history, because, and do check again btw, I can write an argument with a historical reference. Nuh-uh? Read my post again. 



GaraKira said:


> and then you give me some link about the bombings, (which btw I cannot be bothered to read).. wtf?.. did you get my point at all?.. the dude is saying that nuking someone is a QUOTE: *KIND DEATH*, UNQUOTE. he also says that the 200 000 innocent persons killed were PALTRY.. LIKE WTF??  how can you possibly stand by anyone who says : "the 200 000 lifes were meaningless humans, and they died a kind death by us nuking them"
> 
> dude.. I'm fucking speachless.



You are telling me that you didn't read my link. So you didn't address my point. Because you did not address my point, the following quotes of yours prove that you lack the ability to state or prove a single point of evidence. 



GaraKira said:


> You completely ignore my points...



Which apparently does not regard you at all? DEBUTT.



GaraKira said:


> ...ant try to take my stuff out of context...



Yes, the source I linked to it. It just. Made you confused, because you were writing about the WW2 argument on using nuclear arms. Me referencing to the only tactical document confirmed to exist on deploying nuclear arms is completely irrelevant. Oh yes, go Tacitus.



GaraKira said:


> ...then you proceed to make a meaningless point



What about deductive reasoning, consequent reason, modus ponens and modus tollens? Don't they just scream at you for being wrong beyond the definition, and somewhat bordering to fail (at life)?



GaraKira said:


> I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past.



I don't care, so I link to the material of the wondrous deed they did as they put down their picnic basket on a country armed to the teeth with suicide bombers as a little child pokes an ant with its thumb. Aye, correlations.

...Where are yours?



GaraKira said:


> and then you give me some link about the bombings, (which btw I cannot be bothered to read).. wtf?.. did you get my point at all?.. the dude is saying that nuking someone is a QUOTE: *KIND DEATH*, UNQUOTE. he also says that the 200 000 innocent persons killed were PALTRY.. LIKE WTF??  how can you possibly stand by anyone who says : "the 200 000 lifes were meaningless humans, and they died a kind death by us nuking them"



So you don't read what you are going to comment on. Deja vu?



GaraKira said:


> dude.. I'm fucking speachless.



No, I am speechless. You just have poor grammar.



GaraKira said:


> You just completely and utterly owned yourself.



Surely I don't need to point out that it was in fact you who did that?


Btw, I think you insult all the people in the world with rational reasons for opposing the war in Iraq, and in general all the people with good political arguments countering the US. Why do you do this to them?


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## Razgriez (Dec 23, 2006)

> Other than 2 of the taboo laws I have mentioned before, there are several others :
> 
> - Not allowing the Japanese Empire to involve on any of Japan political issue including on the Japanese leadership.
> - Paying a humongous war debt for the u.s.a
> ...


Well this is what usually happens when you lose a war.

After all, they did originally go to the point of fighting to the last person until we nuked them. They were estimating that at least 50% of the Japanese population was going to die a long with at least 1-2 million GIs lost in the invasion of mainland Japan.

Scary thinking about how insane their nationalistic ideals drove them to honestly.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> and I'm the retard?.. You come off as a fairly intellegent guy, yet you act so stupid at times it makes me wanna rip my own head off. The analogy was aimed at the Nuclear weapon, where "unarmed" means japan doesn't have nukes.. come on guy.. do we have to go through the same routine everytime? there's no point in trying to beat around the bush, or whatever you're trying to do by acting like you don't understand the analogies.



Nuclear weapons given ther war ending potential are infinitely more tactically and strategically useful then fighting a bloodbath with conventional weapons. "Unarmed" my ass. A man with one arm can still pose a threat to a full bodied man. 



GaraKira said:


> then why nuke'em?.. u won.. btw, thnx for the oh so mature comment.



Because they wouldn't surrender or cease belligerency. Even without their carriers they hurled kamikazes at the 3rd fleet. 



GaraKira said:


> so don't fucking invade it. it's just that easy.



How would you end the war without decesive defeat (i.e. forcing an opponent to surrender)? You do that by displaying overwhelming force or forcibly seizing a countries homeland. We avoided the latter in favor of the former by employing nuclear weapons. It's just that easy. 



GaraKira said:


> YOU. The way you're going on about japan not beeing trustworthy due to their past. Well, the same goes to america. AND THAT IS THE POINT I'VE BEEN MAKING ALL THE TIME, yet you just start babbling about some other shit and try to get your way out of it.



How is America not trustworthy again? I wasn't aware we sneak attacked Port Arthur/Pearl Harbor, and had a history of belligerency with a fantical sense of nationalism mixed with outright racism. 

America's cruelty in war is Abu Garib, Japan's is Unit 731. Do the math. 



GaraKira said:


> way to stay on topic and stick to relevant posts. wow. and I'm the retard, eh?



We were talking about far history no? America is closer to 150 years past the worst of the plains conflicts, that's pratically speaking acienct history. 



GaraKira said:


> not for the past 61 years though..



Like how, employing two to end the most destructive conflict known to man and avoiding an invasion which would've caused twice as many casualties on Kyushu alone (on the extreme low end and nearly 10x on the high end)? 



GaraKira said:


> also, the same goes for japan, they have been pretty calm after the nuking..



That's because they were forced disarmed and prevented from the course of offensive action, not a shift in culture. In fact, the fact that the rape of nanking and the very atrocity of getting America and other nations involved in World War II is white washed or ignored. Cultures based on ignorance tend to be violent ones.   



GaraKira said:


> what's your point?. I was talking about the wole country as it is today.



*Ahem*



GaraKira said:


> yet you forget how you got to the place you live in right now.



Indicating my present place. Be entirely more specific next time. 



GaraKira said:


> You would have had a point if u was livinig completely independant of everything located on "Blood-land"



Ironically enough we bought the land from the formal powers that laid claim to them through the Treaty of Paris in 1783, the Louisanna Purchase, the treaties after the Mexican-American war, the Texas annexation, and other such purchases. Indian removal is a stain upon the US' history, but one way or another we did get the land legally from one power or another.

Ruthlessly speaking Japan is still on even worse footing then the US' Indian removal policies as far as causing more deaths.  



GaraKira said:


> *said the voice in the Propaganda speakers.*
> Wo0o0t!



Hey, that's why the Bill of Rights exists. 



GaraKira said:


> yes, but not all claim to be gods gift to mankind, you dip.



That's funny, seeing as how no one here has claimed the US is God's gift to mankind. Stop strawmanning.


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## *** (Dec 24, 2006)

Megaharrison said:


> Ahahahahaha the JAPANESE complaining about past "crimes" done to them? The Japanese have a histroy of doing some of the most horrific acts in human history.


They didn't want to be worse than Germans.


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## GaraKira (Dec 24, 2006)

Toby Christ. Your lack of comprehension completely shadows my lack of grammar.

1. when I comment on Nos' Barbaric statements, you don't give me a link showing how they reached their barbaric act. Because anyway you slice it, the less of two barbaric acts is still a barbaric act! 

2. you're talking about historicall refference, but are completely biased. that's oxymoronic. My piont was that America is hypocrotic. You ignore that and just  go on yapping about how I "make comments on something I know nothing abuot"

3. You speak so higly of your argumental skills yet you fail to recognize yourself in my statement "I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past". You fail to understand that I said that to show you HOW YOU LOOK. Then you proceed to take it out of context and quote only the parts where I say "I don't know and I don't care". The reason I said I don't know and I don't care was to show you how you guys look when you speak. Becaue you speak sooooo much about Japans actions in the past and praise your "historical refference" but ignore americas blood-filled actions. way to go.

Then we have Nos here telling us that the mighty US can not end a war without taking at least the life of some 2-300 000 innocent civilans. Why? Because their 3rd fleet is worth the lives of 2-300 000 japanese civilans.

If I'm in a fight with you, I don't go running off from you to beat up your little brother and sister. But ofcourse, that's what you would do. God bless america!


Btw Nos. You're little Viking comment was completely irrelevant to this topic, since I never spoke of norway, or norway's actions in any way what so ever.

PS: How would I end a war? I would take out the forces attacking me. If I fail to do so, it means I lost. Since there's little chance of my civilans getting hurt as long as I'm in the pacific, I won't attack their civilans.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 24, 2006)

I hope PM Shinzo Abe not only breaking the 2 taboo laws of not allowing Japan to have military force and not allwoing Japanese to teach patriotism to their youth. But other laws that were made under u.s.a pressure to "chain" Japanese since the end of WW2. May PM Shinzo Abe and the new born Emperor Hisahito lead Japan to a more better and bright future for the sake of other ASIAN countrys as well.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 24, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> Then we have Nos here telling us that the mighty US can not end a war without taking at least the life of some 2-300 000 innocent civilans. Why? Because their 3rd fleet is worth the lives of 2-300 000 japanese civilans.



No you strawmanning idiot. I only used the continuing and suicidal opposition to TF 58 as an example of why the war hadn't ended and the Japanese weren't without teeth.

If you had been able to read at all (something coming into extreme doubt) I said the US invasion of a single island of Japan (Kyushu) would've resulted in at least twice as many deaths on the extreme low end. It's says a lot when you think that civilians charging Marines with automatic weapons is a lot better then ending the war with a display of power that would cost less lives.



GaraKira said:


> Btw Nos. You're little Viking comment was completely irrelevant to this topic, since I never spoke of norway, or norway's actions in any way what so ever.



Your criticism is equally groundless. Become fimiliar with the concept of sarcasm.



GaraKira said:


> PS: How would I end a war? I would take out the forces attacking me. If I fail to do so, it means I lost. Since there's little chance of my civilans getting hurt as long as I'm in the pacific, I won't attack their civilans.



A Norweigan general recently said their troops "weren't trained to fight." Thanks for displaying an insane  amount of callous disregard for troops lives. This isn't a goddamn warhammer game, a nation in total war has everyone involved.


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## Altron (Dec 24, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> 3. You speak so higly of your argumental skills yet you fail to recognize yourself in my statement "I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past". You fail to understand that I said that to show you HOW YOU LOOK. Then you proceed to take it out of context and quote only the parts where I say "I don't know and I don't care". The reason I said I don't know and I don't care was to show you how you guys look when you speak. Becaue you speak sooooo much about Japans actions in the past and praise your "historical refference" but ignore americas blood-filled actions. way to go.




Well can you name any atrocities the U.S. committed in the past? I can...

The only bad thing we did was Vietnam...we put those ppl in concetration camps, we devestated the landscape, and we killed civilians we thought were vietcong or vietminh spies, we tried to win the hearts of the people. We did all that atrocities yet still lost the fucking war. so you want historical reference there ya go. 

By the way...Japan has committed horrible acts even before world war II. I bet you never heard of the Imjin War? were japan invaded Korea in 1592 and  Hideyoshi dreamed of conquering the Asian continent and China. So japan raped and killed korean civilians, (me being korean myself i find that despicable, if you dont believe me go to South Korea and visit the war memorial, you can see all japanese atrocities. 

you dont really care about japan's past because you know nothing of it, and yet you bash NOS guy for not refrencing historial reference? this shows that you know nothing of history and thus all your comebacks are just plain BS. why dont you research a little history, 

BTW japan losing 400,000 civilians to the Nuke....is nothing compared to the Battle Of Stalingrad, try them losing 2 Million civilians, USSR casualites during WWII 12.8 Million.

by claiming NOS that he ignores historical references, you basically said that anyone who just talked about japan didint know any historical reference. well there you fucking go! i spoke about america and japan. so before you claim that we know nothing about america's past, you should do a little research yourself, since you it seems you know nothing about "our blood filled actions"

btw when has Norway contributed to anything? what about the Vikings who massacred the priests and looted at lindesfarn? you norse have contributed nothing to the world, yet the vikings were defeated by Christianity?


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## s0id3 (Dec 24, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...


ever hear of the rape of nanking? batan death march? they also killed british nuns/ hospital workers in Singapore...they did chemical testing on civilian towns in china...they skinned chinese and fillipino people alive...they would toss up babies and bayonet them in the air...and spell America right....you make it like America is oppressing japan...if it weren't for the U.S. they wouldnt be a world economic power.

i believe bans should stay...so the power/land hungry bastards cant start another war...and take women and rape them where ever they go...in war the japanese talk of honor but they have none in war....in ww2 they took women from all over the place n took em along as sex slaves...they dont deserve a full military force..i wouldnt trust them.


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## Altron (Dec 24, 2006)

read the post above you...

Rape of nanking

bataan death march

annexation of korea again(extensive use of tortures)

making japanese the official language

poor pow treatment

bombed pearl harbor

though about using biological weapons

etc....


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## s0id3 (Dec 24, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> I hope PM Shinzo Abe not only breaking the 2 taboo laws of not allowing Japan to have military force and not allwoing Japanese to teach patriotism to their youth. But other laws that were made under u.s.a pressure to "chain" Japanese since the end of WW2. May PM Shinzo Abe and the new born Emperor Hisahito lead Japan to a more better and bright future for the sake of other ASIAN countrys as well.



are you kidding me...the japanese are fucking arrogant...they think they;re better than everyone..they could care less about any other asian country


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## Altron (Dec 24, 2006)

if anything Korea suffered the most under japanese occupation. since i am half korean myselft it pisses me off about japanese ppl. though without them we wouldnt have all the electronics we have now


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## s0id3 (Dec 24, 2006)

Katon001 said:


> if anything Korea suffered the most under japanese occupation. since i am half korean myselft it pisses me off about japanese ppl. though without them we wouldnt have all the electronics we have now



yeah..im half Filipino n half viet. and the stuff they did't to Filipino's pisses me off too, but i  just think that was a different time...and if they do get a military force hopefully they wont do all those bad things again....but i still wouldnt trust em, stiull dont think they need or shold have a full military force.


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## TheFlameAlchemist (Dec 24, 2006)

Japan would fall apart if they actually broke those rules, America is one of there biggest export countries, they need Americas friendship, they wouldn't just break the rules, they'd try to get them removed politically, not be rash and dumb. Without America Japan would prolly never be able to rebuild after WW2.


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## s0id3 (Dec 24, 2006)

TheFlameAlchemist said:


> Japan would fall apart if they actually broke those rules, America is one of there biggest export countries, they need Americas friendship, they wouldn't just break the rules, they'd try to get them removed politically, not be rash and dumb. Without America Japan would prolly never be able to rebuild after WW2.



exactly...and remember why Japan attacked America? Because we stopped trading with them.


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## Toby (Dec 24, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> Toby Christ. Your lack of comprehension completely shadows my lack of grammar.



There. You said it, now prove it. Show my lack of comprehension. Prove it. Stop stating your opinion and use a form of reason to prove one damn thing I have said which points out your failed logic. Come on.



GaraKira said:


> 1. when I comment on Nos' Barbaric statements, you don't give me a link showing how they reached their barbaric act. Because anyway you slice it, the less of two barbaric acts is still a barbaric act!



First of all, you didn't read the reference, so don't give me your opinion on it at all until you know what it contains. It was the military justification for selecting the two cities, and it's justification from a military point of view completely washes your evaluation off the floor because you evaluated the situation froma humanitarian point of view. That is showing a bias and incomprehendible stupidity as the humanitarian aspect ought to bring into focus how many would have died in an invasion of Japan. Read the historical references we have made before bashing them, and if you still feel compelled to do so then explain how they are biased unlike you and yours. Oh wait, you don't have any.

Don't talk to me about slicing twirp, that was inductive reasoning I used. Read the links I gave you.



GaraKira said:


> 2. you're talking about historicall refference, but are *completely biased*. that's oxymoronic. My piont was that America is hypocrotic. You ignore that and just  go on yapping about how I "make comments on something I know nothing abuot"



Show me that "biased" information I have given you. Listen kid, I have done my Extended Essay on the nuclear bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I assure you that having read these sources you will fucking adhere to the good sources I can list to you which you have not even tried to match. 

I do not avoid your comment on America is hypocritic, because every country is hyprocitic in some way or another. You simply choose to demonise the US because it is easy and because most of the media in Norway chooses to be very critical. Yes, boy, I live in Norway too and can assure you from knowing the system. But you choose to not think critically on your own evaluation, and therefore, in truth, you are biased as hell.

When I make a point that you are wrong and you do not address that, it shows a poor analysis of my argument here. I took the root and basis of your argument and pointed out how poorly developed it is. Even if the US were hypocritic and I were to completely agree with that your entire evaluation fails because it is based on a false premise. Again: Read the links.



GaraKira said:


> 3. You speak so higly of your argumental skills yet you fail to recognize yourself in my statement "I don't care what bad things japan has done in the past, the same way you and mr.nos obviously don't care what bad things america has done in the past". You fail to understand that I said that to show you HOW YOU LOOK.



I speak highly of the lack of your argumentative skills. Having read my post and responding like this shows that your analytical skills are the real problem here, and I assume that you may some lingual barrier going on here. From my perspective, being bi-lingual, I can tell that from your statement there is a claim of your self not being, in any way, interested in what tragic events have happened in the past history of Japan. When I then comment on it saying that your lack of interest is, when commenting on the subject, showing your comment both to be ignorant and irrelevant: But the most important problem with it is that you yourself admit that the entire rant of yours is useless. Why then do you write it?

What the hell do you mean by "HOW YOU LOOK"? My physical appearance? How I perceive the situation? Grab a dictionary and get cracking. Being Norwegian you will use this for a simple job:

Screenshots



GaraKira said:


> ...
> Then you proceed to take it out of context and quote only the parts where I say "I don't know and I don't care". The reason I said I don't know and I don't care was to show you how you guys look when you speak. Becaue you speak sooooo much about Japans actions in the past and praise your "historical refference" but ignore americas blood-filled actions. way to go.



We do not ignore the American travesties or whatever-majig you think is relevant. In fact, were you any knowledgeable about international politics, you'd at least show *one reference* to a *Chinese* conflict as they are the *rival* of Japan regarding historical events. Read something about the Sino-Japanese wars.

"Way to go"? You seem to ignore everything I make a point of and, as opposed to you, stand for throughout the debate whilst proving further that your argument is leaking. We should list all the horrible deeds in history according to your extremely vague criterion for what is correct and not. From your point of view (as written, after all) it seems that the US is the only country with a bad history. 



GaraKira said:


> Then we have Nos here telling us that the mighty US can not end a war without taking at least the life of some 2-300 000 innocent civilans. Why? Because their 3rd fleet is worth the lives of 2-300 000 japanese civilans.
> 
> If I'm in a fight with you, I don't go running off from you to beat up your little brother and sister. But ofcourse, that's what you would do. God bless america!



Listen, now you're branding the US with some extremely bad mustard. Norwegians contributed with soldiers for the Third Reich. Don't fucking try to squeeze a single US act into comparison to joining those racist fuckers. And for your information, killing civilians is a great way to ruin an enemy's supply of materials as well as destroying infrastructure and morale.

So add Britain, France, Italy, Turkey, Iran, Israel, Spain, Russia, PR China etc. to that list of yours. 



GaraKira said:


> Btw Nos. You're little Viking comment was completely irrelevant to this topic, since I never spoke of norway, or norway's actions in any way what so ever.



He is entitled to make a comment if it fits in with what he says and it fits the criterion. It's called freedom of speech. And making an argument. You'd do best to address the latter for some close-up reading.



GaraKira said:


> PS: How would I end a war? I would take out the forces attacking me. If I fail to do so, it means I lost. Since there's little chance of my civilans getting hurt as long as I'm in the pacific, I won't attack their civilans.



Japan was in no state of continuing their attacks on the US, and so there were no attacks to repel for the US. What to do then, eh? Oh that's right, we'd better wait. Attacking Japan is what they want us to! 


Honestly


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## Razgriez (Dec 25, 2006)

> A Norweigan general recently said their troops "weren't trained to fight." Thanks for displaying an insane amount of callous disregard for troops lives. *This isn't a goddamn warhammer game, a nation in total war has everyone involved.*


A golden statement.

People have become so ignorant to reality and dont realize that wars arent just fought by the soldiers. It is also fought by those who work in the factories, those who feed the troops, the doctors who treat the troops, and even those who pay taxes.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines. But that won't change the fact that most of the Japanese will never forget what the american did to their country and girls because Chinese, Korean and Philippines are not american. On other words Japanese may forgive Chinese, Korean or Philippines if the one who nuke Japan are Chinese, Korean or Philippines since Japanese have did terrible things to China, Korea and Philippine, but I don't think Chinese, Korean or Philippines are the same as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.

   There are also several american here who said Japan and america are a close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi anymore. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.

   By the way, I'm agree with the other member here who said american are like Israeli who use civilians as their target, by looking back at what the american did to Japan in 1945 by nuking the Japanese ciry 1 by 1 killing the Japanese civilians to press the Japanese empire to surrender. Just how the Israeli doing the same thing to the Palestine civilians.

   If any of you don't like Japan then don't use any of what the Japanese have made including Anime and Video Games. Japan not only sending their goods to the u.s.a but to over 100 other countrys. Losing u.s.a does not mean much to Japan since China now the biggest economy giant and there are several other countrys now who become more advanced on growth. But can you find Anime anywhere else [ except Korea and China who also both ASIAN country ] ? I'm sure you can't find Naruto or other awesome Anime anywhere else except from Japan.

And for the reason why Japan attack pearl harbour are not because america stop trading with Japan during WW2 but because america interfering on WW2 by cutting OIL supply from Europe into Japan. It seems not juts the u.s.a president and the u.s.a media who lies, their own citizens aswell.

For info : Japan, China and South Korea are now ally after their country forming East ASIA summit, like what South East ASIA did with ASEAN [ Association Of South East ASIA ]. There are several western countrys who hates the alliance of Japan, China and South Korea because 2 of those 3 countrys are the economic giant in the world with the 1st place as China and Japan on the 2nd place. South Korea also have advanced growth aswell.


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## Toby (Dec 25, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> ...
> A Norweigan general recently said their troops "weren't trained to fight." Thanks for displaying an insane  amount of callous disregard for troops lives. This isn't a goddamn warhammer game, a nation in total war has everyone involved.



I strongly doubt he said they weren't trained to fight from their professional point of view. The Norwegian soldiers in Afghanistan are our best fighter pilots and a few elite troops. The latter actually train with the US Navy SEALs and the SAS, so I doubt that statement came from Norway's highest echelon of command. Probably just our socialist minister of finance screwing up our foreign policy again.


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## Draffut (Dec 25, 2006)

I really hope this GaraKira is just trying to argue to play Devils Advocate...

Cause if anyone is seriously that stupid, I fear for where our civilzation is headed.

P.S. Happy Holidays all.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 25, 2006)

Toby_Christ said:


> I strongly doubt he said they weren't trained to fight from their professional point of view. The Norwegian soldiers in Afghanistan are our best fighter pilots and a few elite troops. The latter actually train with the US Navy SEALs and the SAS, so I doubt that statement came from Norway's highest echelon of command. Probably just our socialist minister of finance screwing up our foreign policy again.



So far as my understanding of NATO layout in Afganistan is that Norway has about a company of regular mechanized troopers and a demi-squadron of F-16s and had previously deployed Spec Ops forces.


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## Toby (Dec 25, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> So far as my understanding of NATO layout in Afganistan is that Norway has about a company of regular mechanized troopers and a demi-squadron of F-16s and had previously deployed Spec Ops forces.



Yup, but the fighter pilots for our (whine) four mighty F-16s and the Spec Ops are all combat-trained. Truth be told our most combat-experienced are still in the KFOR-force back in Kosovo. 'Tis a sad tale. :/

My point was that in Norway the socialists win regardless of what you vote. So in this case socialism only applies for the 160 elite troopers our foreign minister wanted to send. Those thousands of Afghanis dying as a result of them not being sent are obviously not worthy of Norwegian socialism. Or should I say national socialism?


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## s0id3 (Dec 25, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines. But that won't change the fact that most of the Japanese will never forget what the american did to their country and girls because Chinese, Korean and Philippines are not american. On other words Japanese may forgive Chinese, Korean or Philippines if the one who nuke Japan are Chinese, Korean or Philippines since Japanese have did terrible things to China, Korea and Philippine, but I don't think Chinese, Korean or Philippines are the same as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.
> 
> There are also several american here who said Japan and america are a close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi anymore. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.
> 
> ...





> It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines.


That is the only thing you ever say...all the atrocities the Japan did its 100 fold worse than that. They took women from anywhere the could find and brought them every...raped them when ever and where ever they wanted...you do know the Japanese have never apologized for the chemical/biological testing on Chinese civilians. You keep bitching about a few rapes...but it's nothing compared to the rape of nanking...


> On other words Japanese may forgive Chinese, Korean or Philippines if the one who nuke Japan are Chinese, Korean or Philippines since Japanese have did terrible things to China, Korea and Philippine, but I don't think Chinese, Korean or Philippines are the same as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.


Japan never even apologized for their atrocities of other Asian nation...and just because Japanese did horrible things to other Asian countries doesn't mean that they'll forgive those countries easier if they were the ones who nuked them. We've already apologized for the nukings and Japan has accepted...so really the crap you talk bout japan not forgiving U.S. already happened...now i'd like to see Japan apologize for it's atrocities...


> as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.


Um....you're an idiot we were winning the war...it was Japan that was losing...i believe the Japan lose their humanity in war..they have no honor and respect for others. 


> By the way, I'm agree with the other member here who said american are like Israeli who use civilians as their target, by looking back at what the american did to Japan in 1945 by nuking the Japanese ciry 1 by 1 killing the Japanese civilians to press the Japanese empire to surrender. Just how the Israeli doing the same thing to the Palestine civilians.


i would highly suggest learning the history of WW2 or war history in general before talking shit you dont know anything about. Do you know why America targeted Hiroshima and Nagasaki? i bet you don't. It is because those cities were still almost 100% intact compared to all you other wood and paper cities. We bombed those cities to test the A-bomb to it's fullest. And i hope you know the Hiroshima did have military camps and factories...it was also the where the HQ of Shunroku Hata's fith division was stationed, which commanded the defence of southern Japan. And it took two nukes for the Japanese to finally surrender...who people just don't know when to give up. If the Invasion of Japan had happened their would have been much heavier loses on those sides than the two nukes combined. 


> If any of you don't like Japan then don't use any of what the Japanese have made including Anime and Video Games. Japan not only sending their goods to the u.s.a but to over 100 other countrys. Losing u.s.a does not mean much to Japan since China now the biggest economy giant and there are several other countrys now who become more advanced on growth. But can you find Anime anywhere else [ except Korea and China who also both ASIAN country ] ? I'm sure you can't find Naruto or other awesome Anime anywhere else except from Japan.


no one is saying they don't like Japan...just so you know Japan did not make/invent video games..nor did they Anime...i hope you know Walt Disney had his cartoon out since 1928. Anime didnt really start up still the 1970's and at that they were just copying animation techniques from America,Russia,Germany and France.


> There are also several american here who said Japan and america are a close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi anymore. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.


You do know that America and Japan are allies right.....


> And for the reason why Japan attack pearl harbour are not because america stop trading with Japan during WW2 but because america interfering on WW2 by cutting OIL supply from Europe into Japan. It seems not juts the u.s.a president and the u.s.a media who lies, their own citizens aswell.[/quote
> stop making it like the Japan are gods among men, i hope you know the Japan government kept telling their citizens that they were winning the war the whole, though they were severely losing.


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## Razgriez (Dec 25, 2006)

Draffut said:


> I really hope this GaraKira is just trying to argue to play Devils Advocate...
> 
> Cause if anyone is seriously that stupid, I fear for where our civilzation is headed.
> 
> P.S. Happy Holidays all.



Dont worry. Hes from Norway so he has nothing to do with our civilization.



> It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines. But that won't change the fact that most of the Japanese will never forget what the american did to their country and girls because Chinese, Korean and Philippines are not american. On other words Japanese may forgive Chinese, Korean or Philippines if the one who nuke Japan are Chinese, Korean or Philippines since Japanese have did terrible things to China, Korea and Philippine, but I don't think Chinese, Korean or Philippines are the same as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.


Well we didnt exactly forgive the Japanese for blowing up half of our pacific fleet. The nukes were just serious pay back for fucking with us.
They kicked us in the balls so we ripped their's off and shoved it down their throats.



> There are also several american here who said Japan and america are a close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi anymore. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.


Im not surprized that Japan is well... a bunch of sore losers. They do try to mask the reality of WW2 to their people using propaganda.




> By the way, I'm agree with the other member here who said american are like Israeli who use civilians as their target, by looking back at what the american did to Japan in 1945 by nuking the Japanese ciry 1 by 1 killing the Japanese civilians to press the Japanese empire to surrender. Just how the Israeli doing the same thing to the Palestine civilians.


Dont we just hate America. 



> If any of you don't like Japan then don't use any of what the Japanese have made including Anime and Video Games. Japan not only sending their goods to the u.s.a but to over 100 other countrys. Losing u.s.a does not mean much to Japan since China now the biggest economy giant and there are several other countrys now who become more advanced on growth. But can you find Anime anywhere else [ except Korea and China who also both ASIAN country ] ? I'm sure you can't find Naruto or other awesome Anime anywhere else except from Japan.


I dont hate Japan like you hate America. They do produce quality products.



> And for the reason why Japan attack pearl harbour are not because america stop trading with Japan during WW2 but because america interfering on WW2 by cutting OIL supply from Europe into Japan. It seems not juts the u.s.a president and the u.s.a media who lies, their own citizens aswell.


Well we couldnt let our allies hanging. Japan wasnt exactly a good guy during the war... since they were mind controlling their people and causing mass genocide in China... and then launched a major offensive against the US without declaring war. I know one of Japan's generals was very wishy washy about the plan and pissing off the US and even found it dishonorable to attack before declaring war.



> For info : Japan, China and South Korea are now ally after their country forming East ASIA summit, like what South East ASIA did with ASEAN [ Association Of South East ASIA ]. There are several western countrys who hates the alliance of Japan, China and South Korea because 2 of those 3 countrys are the economic giant in the world with the 1st place as China and Japan on the 2nd place. South Korea also have advanced growth aswell.


Sucky sucky 5 dolla? Me love you long time?


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## Toby (Dec 25, 2006)

Razgriez: You may not be offended by it, but as a Norwegian (half, at least) I find it quite annoying that GK should be considered anyhow representative for the Norwegian opinion. A true Norwegian cares about our oil money and little about... whatever this thread is about. Anyway.

It's a true scotsman, but I swear it's relevant.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 25, 2006)

What's ultimately hilarious is people are complaining about the US embargo on Japan.

Boo-fucking-hoo. We cut off your supplies so you would have difficulty _waging a genocidal war against China_.


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## Razgriez (Dec 25, 2006)

Toby_Christ said:


> Razgriez: You may not be offended by it, but as a Norwegian (half, at least) I find it quite annoying that GK should be considered anyhow representative for the Norwegian opinion. A true Norwegian cares about our oil money and little about... whatever this thread is about. Anyway.
> 
> It's a true scotsman, but I swear it's relevant.



lol...

Isnt that the truth.


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## s0id3 (Dec 25, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> What's ultimately hilarious is people are complaining about the US embargo on Japan.
> 
> Boo-fucking-hoo. We cut off your supplies so you would have difficulty _waging a genocidal war against China_.



yeah...seriously the topic starter doesnt know what they're talking bout...they think japan is some godly palce and that America is evil.


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## Razgriez (Dec 25, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> yeah...seriously the topic starter doesnt know what they're talking bout...they think japan is some godly palce and that America is evil.



They sound like some sort of Nazi SS member except they are bragging about how awesome Asian people are... in Asia.


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## s0id3 (Dec 25, 2006)

everytime the topic starter posts we tear em apart


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 25, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> yeah...seriously the topic starter doesnt know what they're talking bout...they think japan is some godly palce and that America is evil.



First of all, I don't think SOid3, That NOS Guy, Razgriez, and some other had not taken political science yet.  Therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.  So I am not going to discuss politic with you guys.

Second, Japan and Japanese are people of honor.  They keep their words.  After WWII they promised that they'll never built up their military force with the purpose to invade other countries, and they will stand by it.  

Third, why is it bad for Japanese children to be taught about Nationalism and Patriotism?  Here in the US, we do that round the clock.  So don't you think it is kind of hypocritical for us to demonize them for teaching their kids about their nationality?  It is just like Free Trade, we are the number 1 promoter of Free Trade when it is beneficial for us and say that other countries should open their borders for us, to trade with them, because Free Trade is good.  Actually sometimes we forced them.  Now, they open their borders for us and we start complaining about how bad it is because our manufacturing jobs gone overseas.  One of the main reasons our economy is as big and strong as it is today is due to free trade, and we are still beneficial from it.  The benefits we got from free trade far outweigh the losses.  But when we are complaining about it we don't include the benefits we only points out the trade deficits and job loss.  I know this is off topic but let me tell you one thing, if you support those people who say that we should close our borders and vote them into office and give them power to do so, by then you will find out what kind of detrimental effect it will cause to our economy.  I am just saying we are being hypocrites.

We keep demonize and make (particularly) Japan and Germany feel bad for what they've done during world war 2.  You know what?  In those eras, everybody did it?  Every country did bad things including us.  If you take political science courses you will find out who did what and what and at the same time understand a little bit about politic.  History is for us to learn and know of our past and be liberal about it and work for a better way forward.  History is not intended for us to hate and hold grudge or make them feel bad about what they have done in the past.  Do you think what what we did to the Native Americans is better than what Japan did to the chinese?  It is only one of the example that is easily stand out.  That is why we have Black history month and taught children about slavery.  It is a scar to our nation but we still teach.  It is not to make us feel guilty, but it is for us to understand our past and work for a way forward so that history doesn't repeat itself.

So don't be a frog under the well and speak as if you understand how the world works.  Nobody will.


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## Razgriez (Dec 25, 2006)

> First of all, I don't think SOid3, That NOS Guy, Razgriez, and some other had not taken political science yet.  Therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.  So I am not going to discuss politic with you guys.


Whoa whoa whoa whoa...

I think you need to know just because we didnt take some class doesnt mean we cant be knowledgeable of the subject.



> Third, why is it bad for Japanese children to be taught about Nationalism and Patriotism?


If you have taken political science you should already know the answer to this question.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 25, 2006)

Oh, how cute, a name dropper. 

There are enormous differences between the Holacaust and the Japanese treatment of China and America's worst, that however is rather not the point. The point is as you mentioned that people should learn from their history. How can they do that when they're taught a whitewashed series of events and that the mother state is all good? Answer me that one.


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## s0id3 (Dec 25, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> First of all, I don't think SOid3, That NOS Guy, Razgriez, and some other had not taken political science yet.  Therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.  So I am not going to discuss politic with you guys.


my major may not be political science but trust me, i know a lot about ww2 and war history in general. and like others have said, just because im not a political science major does not mean i am not knowledgeable on the subject...with your logic unless a person took a class on a certain subject they don't know shit..



> Second, Japan and Japanese are people of honor.  They keep their words.  After WWII they promised that they'll never built up their military force with the purpose to invade other countries, and they will stand by it.


They didn't promise it was a signed treaty... 


> Third, why is it bad for Japanese children to be taught about Nationalism and Patriotism?  Here in the US, we do that round the clock.  So don't you think it is kind of hypocritical for us to demonize them for teaching their kids about their nationality?  It is just like Free Trade, we are the number 1 promoter of Free Trade when it is beneficial for us and say that other countries should open their borders for us, to trade with them, because Free Trade is good.  Actually sometimes we forced them.  Now, they open their borders for us and we start complaining about how bad it is because our manufacturing jobs gone overseas.  One of the main reasons our economy is as big and strong as it is today is due to free trade, and we are still beneficial from it.  The benefits we got from free trade far outweigh the losses.  But when we are complaining about it we don't include the benefits we only points out the trade deficits and job loss.  I know this is off topic but let me tell you one thing, if you support those people who say that we should close our borders and vote them into office and give them power to do so, by then you will find out what kind of detrimental effect it will cause to our economy.  I am just saying we are being hypocrites.


everyone is a hypocrite...
 and if you say the Japanese are a people of honor why haven't they apologized for the atrocities they committed? A few years ago, China asked Japan for an official apology for the atrocities the Japanese did, and guess what? they refused to apologize...


> We keep demonize and make (particularly) Japan and Germany feel bad for what they've done during world war 2.  You know what?  In those eras, everybody did it?  Every country did bad things including us.  If you take political science courses you will find out who did what and what and at the same time understand a little bit about politic.  History is for us to learn and know of our past and be liberal about it and work for a better way forward.  History is not intended for us to hate and hold grudge or make them feel bad about what they have done in the past.  Do you think what what we did to the Native Americans is better than what Japan did to the chinese?  It is only one of the example that is easily stand out.  That is why we have Black history month and taught children about slavery.  It is a scar to our nation but we still teach.  It is not to make us feel guilty, but it is for us to understand our past and work for a way forward so that history doesn't repeat itself.
> 
> So don't be a frog under the well and speak as if you understand how the world works.  Nobody will.


Yeah, i understand the importance of history..i actually was thinking bout majoring in history...but no jobs/money in the field...but still well this is sorta off topic but...history is repeating it's self...in 1947 the National Security Act as passed...under the guise of protect americas and its citizens from the soviets...pretty much gave more power to the gov. pres...
in more recent years the patriot act as passed, and supposedly to help protect us from terrorist and again gives more power to gov/press...so ya see history is already repeating itself.


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## Sunuvmann (Dec 25, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...


Hmmm well a new China-Japanese war would be amusing.

And seeing them demolish North Korea would be fun to watch on CNN.


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

Toby_Christ said:


> There. You said it, now prove it. Show my lack of comprehension. Prove it. Stop stating your opinion and use a form of reason to prove one damn thing I have said which points out your failed logic. Come on.



Gladly.

My oppinion: The war could've ended without America making a "millions or hundres of thousand" ultimatum. thereby making them barbaric and evil. 

You counter: here, read this link, it shows how the millitary reached their decision. it was either this or millions.

conclusion: your counter shows that you didn't comprehend my point, since my point was "it could've ended without such an ultimatum". thereby making your point MEANINGLESS (Follow the arrow) in this discussion. 
............-------------
ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
iii....................V...............



Toby_Christ said:


> And if I made a single meaningless point then you just insulted inductive reasoning (it's related to what I call logic)



Bang!

But don't get it wrong, I didn't insult inductive reasoning. It's just that your use of it sucks major ass.



you might ask how it could've ened without that ultimatum. I would say; Come on, you don't really believe a couple of kamikazes could threaten the existence of america, do you? lol.

oh and Also, to prove that your comprehension is on shamefull level:



Toby_Christ said:


> What the hell do you mean by "HOW YOU LOOK"? My physical appearance?



you shouldn't be so confident if you're not familiar with a common figure of speach. 

Owned! 



Toby_Christ said:


> First of all, you didn't read the reference, so don't give me your opinion on it at all until you know what it contains. It was the military justification for selecting the two cities



exactly, I didn't have to read the whole thing to grasp the idea of what it included. After the idea was grasped I understood that you failed to comprehend my point.




Toby_Christ said:


> Don't talk to me about slicing twirp, that was inductive reasoning I used. Read the links I gave you.



See arrow owning earlier in this post.




Toby_Christ said:


> Show me that "biased" information I have given you.



it's not the information itself. It's you. You throw yourself into the discussion 
talking about how "america almost single handedly supports the world's larget organization fighting for peace" to prove america's innocence. Which doesn't really say much against my point, which was: bashing on japan's former actions is wrong in this situation, since America isn't exactly the most innocent country throughout history either. 

Any murderer would do whatever is necesarry to make him self look innocent.





Toby_Christ said:


> Listen kid, I have done my Extended Essay on the nuclear bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I assure you that having read these sources you will fucking adhere to the good sources I can list to you which you have not even tried to match.



I don't need to even try. there's no point. Because if this Disussion was a map, and I am in Germany while Nos is in France, you'd be all the waayy out in Mongolia.




Toby_Christ said:


> You simply choose to demonise the US because it is easy and because most of the media in Norway chooses to be very critical.



Damn. If you see most of the Norwegian media as beeing *VERY* critical towards america, you must be some sort of american republican extremist.



Toby_Christ said:


> and therefore, in truth, you are biased as hell.



there comes you shamefull use of inductive reasoning. tell me. How the fuck am I biased as hell when saying: If you're gonna critisize one side for their history you must not ignore the other side's history.

Don't think I'm defending Japan's acts in history, I'm just saying, if you're gonna take the approach towards japan which Nos have taken, then you must not forget to look at both sides.



Toby_Christ said:


> Even if the US were hypocritic and I were to completely agree with that your entire evaluation fails because it is based on a false premise.



how is it based on false premise when the premise is based on the same concept of Nos' premise. Follow the arrow.


ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
iii....................V...............



Toby_Christ said:


> Having read my post and responding like this shows that your analytical skills are the real problem here



I think I just proved that your analyctical skills are the problem. not the other way around.




Toby_Christ said:


> We do not ignore the American travesties or whatever-majig you think is relevant.



oh I think they were greatly ignored before I brought it up. Simply by basing the argument of why japan shouldn't arm itself on Japan's history is ignoring more than enough.




Toby_Christ said:


> In fact, were you any knowledgeable about international politics, you'd at least show *one reference* to a *Chinese* conflict as they are the *rival* of Japan regarding historical events. Read something about the Sino-Japanese wars.



No. Because I am a believer of that things can change. I believe people can change and nations can change. I hate when people base things on history in the first place, let along start beeing biased about it. I've allready had a discussion about the action of basing things on history with Nos before, in another thread. This time I'm trying to tell him and all the others argumenting like him, that if you're gonna use such argumentation, then you shure as hell can't be biased. follow the arrow.

ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
ii.....................I...............
iii....................V...............



Toby_Christ said:


> "Way to go"? You seem to ignore everything I make a point of



No, YOU seem to not be fully understanding my points. since you start talking about my historical knowlegde and what not, instead of realizing why I'm in this discussion in the first place. That's why I said; if we were in europe, you'd be in mongolia. you're lost.





Toby_Christ said:


> From your point of view (as written, after all) it seems that the US is the only country with a bad history.



No. Again, blame your comprehension skills.




*NOS:*


> ..how are those Viking raids going?






Toby_Christ said:


> Norwegians contributed with soldiers for the Third Reich...



WTF is about this norwegian shit? Why do you even bring it up? Do you see me defending Norway's past in anyway? what's wrong with you guys? You remind me of those One Piece fans in the OP section. I critisize OP and then they start flaming me with shit like "ZOMG... SHUT UP..NARUTO SUCKZ.. ZOMG", like, when the fuck did I ever defend Naruto in my initial critisizm of OP? and even they make more sense since one could assume I'm a Naruto fan, but even then attacking me instead of my critique is a sign of weakness. While you guys can't even assume that I'm a defender of Norwegian acts throughout history. How could you assume that? Just because I live in Norway?.. that's a fucked up and colossally flawed assumtion. 




Toby_Christ said:


> And for your information, killing civilians is a great way to ruin an enemy's supply of materials as well as destroying infrastructure and morale.



yes I know, and I also know that it's a coward's way in war.





Toby_Christ said:


> Japan was in no state of continuing their attacks on the US, and so there were no attacks to repel for the US. What to do then, eh?



MASSACRE THEM 





Toby_Christ said:


> Razgriez: You may not be offended by it, but as a Norwegian (half, at least) I find it quite annoying that GK should be considered anyhow representative for the Norwegian opinion. A true Norwegian cares about our oil money and little about... whatever this thread is about. Anyway.
> 
> It's a true scotsman, but I swear it's relevant.



I don't know how old you are, but you act like a child in this situation. First of all, if he's stupid enough to think that one person on a message board could represent a whole nation's oppinion, you should be smart enough to know that it's not even worth reckognition. 

but that wasn't even the case. Seriously, this is another proof of your lack of comprehension, because all he said was:

*Razgriez*:


> Hes from Norway _*so* he has nothing to do with our civilization.
> _



([Btw, inductive reasoning right there. Mr.read-the-link-I-gave-you])

in response to a guy who said "I fear for where our civilzation is headed." to tell him that I'm not even from their civilization. ofcourse it seems he did also agree with him that I was stupid, since he commented on the statement without repelling that I was stupid.



[that was just to clear up the situation for you Toby, since I know you're comprehenshionally challenged]

all this typing made me tired... gah.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 26, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> my major may not be political science but trust me, i know a lot about ww2 and war history in general. and like others have said, just because im not a political science major does not mean i am not knowledgeable on the subject...with your logic unless a person took a class on a certain subject they don't know shit..
> 
> 
> They didn't promise it was a signed treaty...
> ...



I agree everyone is a hypocrite.  Why would Japan apologize to China?  If you want Japan apologize to China, then you should also tell China to apologize to Tibet and Taiwan.  There is a saying, if you want respect you got to have respect first.  Did we apologize to Native American for wipe out most of their race?  Did England and France and Spain etc apologize for what they've done to other countries during the colonialism?  Did we apologize to Japan for dropping two atom bombs on them?  Did we (Europeans)apologize to the Middle East for what happen?  I am not talking about this recent war but I am talking about the long history between Isreal and Palestinian.  My point is how can we expect Japan to apologize to China when we haven't shown it first?

I am not saying that you guys are not knowledgeable.  I am just saying that you are only knowing the outer layer of it or the tip of the iceberg.  I took the courses, so I know a little more and deeper.  But I still have much to learn.  Like I said nobody knows everything.  For your information, I major in Accountant and Finance.  Since business and politics are interrelated, that is why I take politics to have a little perspective of how the world functions.

The kind of history I am talking about is like Slavery, we learn about it and be vigilant about it so that slavery will never happen again.  And thanks for pointing that out.  We are not being vigilant enough that is why President Bush and his supporters are able to take advantage of that.  But the Federal system that our Founding Father introduced is an adaptable structure.  Now we recognize something is fundamentally wrong with our electoral system and how some people are able to take advantage of it.  Something will change, soon I hope, for the sake of our country and its people.  This is why our Federal system is so great because it will adapt to change.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 26, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> no one is saying they don't like Japan...just so you know Japan did not make/invent video games..nor did they Anime...i hope you know Walt Disney had his cartoon out since 1928. Anime didnt really start up still the 1970's and at that they were just copying animation techniques from America,Russia,Germany and France.


Keep dreaming and hoping that america will get benefits from other countrys advancement, Animation made before 1.900's by the Japanese. Anime come after 1.960's by the Japanese. You said Japan copying Animation from america, Russia, Germany and France? then how could america, Russia, Germany and France have no ability to make Anime while Japan on the other hand not only able to make Anime but able to make cartoon aswell.
The same with Video Games, america even can't make any better games rather than the Japanese Video Games such as FF, Xenosaga, Suikoden, .hack//, etc. Did you think someone who are a pirate or copyer will make a better result rather than those who are the real inventor who make the Original ?

You wanna say Anime = cartoon because america or where you are now can't made Anime?
You can say you are half Philippine and Vietnam, since it is soo easy to talk and not to act. I don't need to reply your other posting since in my eyes you are just dreaming on. I just hope you won't see the day where there are anti unite state america campaign in Japan or other ASIAN countrys.


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## sting666 (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Keep dreaming and hoping that america will get benefits from other countrys advancement, Animation made before 1.900's by the Japanese.



They didn't even have TV's before the 1900's dumbass.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 26, 2006)

sting666 said:


> They didn't even have TV's before the 1900's dumbass.


On the other hand, you don't know anything of Animation since you think Animation only what you see on Tv.


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## sting666 (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> On the other hand, you don't know anything of Animation since you think Animation only what you see on Tv.



I suppose your counting projectors as animation... And cut it out with this Asian supremacist crap already. Your race isn't superior.


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## blaqmarkit (Dec 26, 2006)

america has had its shackles on the world for far too long.  this is a good thing in my eyes


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 26, 2006)

sting666 said:


> Your race isn't superior.


It seems you think too high of your own country after what you said on ob la da post number 57


sting666 said:


> Because America, Britain, etc. are superpowers


I never said ASIANS are superior but maybe what we ASIAN owns as our pride have owns your pride since it seems you feel treatened by saying "*your race isn't superior.*" even I never said it even once on any of my posting.
I'm just proud of my own race by putting ASIAN Pride as my Sig without saying any racist things on my Sig such as ASIANS owns Coca Cola, KFC or any racist things like that since what you read on my Sig is what we ASIANS owns and not from other race owns things.


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## sting666 (Dec 26, 2006)

You did come right out and say it, but I can tell by your posts and website.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> On the other hand, you don't know anything of Animation since you think Animation only what you see on Tv.



Hey, hey, hey, I think we are off the subject here.  We are not discussing which race is superior here. So I think we should cut this racist things and get back on track discussing the fact that Japan might rebuild their military and teach their kids nationlism and patriotism.  I am an American and I believe that Japan should be able to build their military to protect themselves because I believe in their long tradition of honor and pride that is still going strong today.  I believe that they will keep their promise.  I don't think they will invade other countries.  And to build a military strong enough to conquer other countries require alot of resources, and I don't think they want to be like North Korea, letting the people suffer for military power.  What good does it do to one country?  Japanese people are as democratic as we are.  They are smart and better than that to let it happen to their country.  But they deserve to have their own military to protect them.  *We human have a tendency to demonize others when we feel threaten.  The main point of my earlier posts about history is we should BE LIBERAL about it.  To have an understanding of the subject matter and to be more open and accepted.  It is like the more we know about something the more we learn to accept it.  This is not who is better than who or we should hate others.  So cut the bull....! (I don't swear) *

We American promise to protect them but now with the war in Iraq, we lack the resources to do so.  We feel the strain.*As a matter of fact,I just remember something, Japan and other countries under our protection since World War 2 don't want to built a military but we ask them to.  They want to rely on our military superpower to protect them from whatever while they focus their resources in technology, infrastructures, and basically economic expansion.  Not military expansion.*

This is the 21st century, the era of conquerors and conquests is over.  The way the world is connected by trades and other stuffs that I can't seem to remember right now, I don't think it is in anybody interests to see another world war or set the world back 60 somethin years to era of war.  This is the reason why we are trying so hard to keep the conflict in the Mid East, Africa, North Korea and other at a minimal.  

If we believe in God, we know that God creates everyone equally.  I also believe nobody is better than anybody.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Dec 26, 2006)

I can only say, keep dreaming that the Japanese will forget the terrible things your country did to Japan including not allowing Japan to have military since WW2 end. I guess your country u.s.a fear the revenge of Japan if they let Japan build military force and letting Japan to teach patriotism to the Japanese youth.

It is the u.s.a who "chain" Japan with many laws including not allowing Japan to gain military force and teach patriotism to their youth. You seems not reading this whole topic since you said "*As a matter of fact,I just remember something, Japan and other countries under our protection since World War 2 don't want to built a military but we ask them to. They want to rely on our military superpower to protect them from whatever while they focus their resources in technology, infrastructures, and basically economic expansion. Not military expansion*."
You call that as fact? well I call that as lies.


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## s0id3 (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Keep dreaming and hoping that america will get benefits from other countrys advancement, Animation made before 1.900's by the Japanese. Anime come after 1.960's by the Japanese. You said Japan copying Animation from america, Russia, Germany and France? then how could america, Russia, Germany and France have no ability to make Anime while Japan on the other hand not only able to make Anime but able to make cartoon aswell.


you seem to misunderstand, im not referring to 'Anime' im referring to Animation in general...
1 : the act of animating : the state of being animate or animated
2 : ANIMATED CARTOON
3 : the preparation of animated cartoons
and japan did not 'create' animation and yes, the Japanese did copy animation techniques...it's not a bad thing but here's ur proof



> The same with Video Games, america even can't make any better games rather than the Japanese Video Games such as FF, Xenosaga, Suikoden, .hack//, etc. Did you think someone who are a pirate or copyer will make a better result rather than those who are the real inventor who make the Original ?


okay...Pong...every first video game...um Halo, Gears of War...there are many good non-Japanese games...


> You wanna say Anime = cartoon because america or where you are now can't made Anime?


Anime, cartoon it's all the same...they are animations..refer back to the definition of animation


> You can say you are half Philippine and Vietnam, since it is soo easy to talk and not to act. I don't need to reply your other posting since in my eyes you are just dreaming on. I just hope you won't see the day where there are anti unite state america campaign in Japan or other ASIAN countrys.


can you reiterate what you're trying to say here. what does my ethnic background have anything to do with this? I'm American. And why are you so Anti-U.S. and or Anti-non Asians? if so then leave these forums. And i hope you know that Japan and the U.S. are allies both militarily and economically
::update::
and ya know..i hope one day you will stop being so prejudice and judgmental. And don't be arrogant as to think that Japan is so great, you talk shit about everyone else but Japan has done many terrible things as well.(which i and others listed in previous posts)


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> I can only say, keep dreaming that the Japanese will forget the terrible things your country did to Japan including not allowing Japan to have military since WW2 end. I guess your country u.s.a fear the revenge of Japan if they let Japan build military force and letting Japan to teach patriotism to the Japanese youth.
> 
> It is the u.s.a who "chain" Japan with many laws including not allowing Japan to gain military force and teach patriotism to their youth. You seems not reading this whole topic since you said "*As a matter of fact,I just remember something, Japan and other countries under our protection since World War 2 don't want to built a military but we ask them to. They want to rely on our military superpower to protect them from whatever while they focus their resources in technology, infrastructures, and basically economic expansion. Not military expansion*."
> You call that as fact? well I call that as lies.



Why do you keep bringing this up?  Do you lust for bloodshed and war that much that you keep bringing this up and talking about that *you will never forget.  When I said you, I mean you Phoenix Knight, not your country.*I don't like War.  I hate War.  It cause pains and suffering to a lot of people.  I don't want to see it happen.  I hope conflict in Middle East (including Iraq) and somebody stop the genocide in Africa.  

I am a forward looking person.  I don't live in the past and hold grudges against others.  Do you think it is in the best interest of your country to wage war against other countries?  Tell you what, we can give you 10-20 years to build your military and when our countries met, I can guaranty you that our country can destroy your country in one week.  

Yes, our country did bad things in the past.  We we are trying to do better to make the world a better place.  It is just that this President Bush is making stupid things that make the world hate us more.  The reason we have so much trouble in Iraq or other place is because we don't want to kill innocent people.  If we engage in an all out war, and not thinking about killing innocent people we can destroy any country.  So don't be cocky and thinking that we cannot get the job done after what you see in Iraq.  

Luckily you are only one person.  You don't speak for your country.  While I don't like what you said but I still respect your people and culture.  So don't live in the past, you should learn to move on like the rest of your country.

On the final note, if you watch anime you should learn from the lessons it teach you.  Like the recent Naruto Anime episode 213-215, doesn't matter how bad a person had done in the past, if they try to help and do better, you should help them.  You guys just watch anime for the joy of it but not the life lessons it teach.  I asking you to forgive.  You don't have to forget.  Beside that is what history is all about.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Hey, remember ASIAN pride is no different then White pride. Obviously no racist overtones there amirite?


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

Sidenote:

Proud =/= Racist

although it sorta can in some cases.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Oh please, when has a "pride" movement never been about tacit racism?


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Oh please, when has a "pride" movement never been about tacit racism?



I'm not saying that. I'm saying a person isn't necessarily a racist just because he's proud of his race.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Yes, they are. Honestly, name me a race pride that isn't racist. 

It's like the KKK saying they're about "white advocacy", when one thinks about that doublespeak it's inheriently racist since having pride in one race holds it above others.


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Yes, they are. Honestly, *name me a race pride* that isn't racist.



if you're talking about an organisation, I have to re-emphasize what I said:



* a person* isn't necessarily a racist just because he's proud of his race.

I know a lot of people who are proud of beeing what they are, and find pride in their culture, etc... still, they are not racist. They don't hate other races. They don't think their race is the above the others, they just enjoy what they are.

but If I were to technically think about Pride of Race, I would agree that it is somewhat racist, since:

I am proud of beeing X ---> I wouldn't wanna be anything else than X

Why? ---> because X is best.

hmm

but then a agin



> Pride refers to a strong sense of self-respect, a refusal to be humiliated as well as joy in the accomplishments of oneself or a person, group, or object that one identifies with



so it doesn't necessarily have to be racist.. see?... hmm.. lol.. first time I've ever thought about this.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Except a pride in "the accomplishments of a race" is far different then that of selected company. 

For example, I'm an atheist. I can be proud of being with a group that is the most scientifically literate in any culture. Since I've made my own choice to join this group and actively contribute to upholding that standard I can have a sense of pride about it. With race, you're born into it and have no real connection to what you're being proud of except skin pgimentation (which is skin deep, literally), so it's stupid to boot.

Your quote block inspired me to go to dictionary.com and look up "Pride"

While I have no qualms agreeing that it can be used in relation to self-essteem and respect here are some other meanings:

_1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc._

aka Hubris.

_6. *the best* of a group, class, society, etc_

Yes, the best.

Pride entails a sense of superiority, there's no getting around that. 

Interestingly enough, looking at the entry for "Racism" I see:

_1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is *superior* and has the right to rule others. _

Take that as you may.


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> _6. *the best* of a group, class, society, etc_
> 
> Yes, the best.



yeah, that's what I showed in my "technicall thinking".. lol


see, when we break it down like that, beeing proud of ones race is racist. But the thing is, I don't think people who usually say they're proud of their race really realize this, or even intend it. That's why I said a proud person isn't necescarily a racist. Pr. Definition he is, but as for pr. intention I don't think he is. Simply because he don't realize it. 



That NOS Guy said:


> Pride entails a sense of superiority, there's no getting around that.



True. But then again, how could you, pr.definition feel superior to something you have no experience from? (example: KKK feels supperior to blacks, yet they don't know how it is to be black, so they don't have a basis of comparision leading to a conclusion of which race is supperior.)


I guess most "proud" people don't realize they are beeing racist, because they would ascociate racism with physicall discrimination. They could feel they're supperior, but still, they wouldn't treat anyone bad just because of their race. would that make them racist? I guess some would say yes, some would say no.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Okay, let's run with the "but they don't treat anyone bad" point. How long do you think people can think that they're superior then the other guy and not let start interfering with their thought processes? It's a dangerous path to take, even if it is seemlingly innocent at first.

Interestingly enough, "Pride in being Japanese" was one of the things that contributed to a racial sense of Japanese superiority and served as one of the justifications for invading China and treating other Asian countries like sub-humans.


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

But, how about they feel proud of their race because their race have acomplished things that will earn them recognition from the rest of the world. In that case, superiority isn't even a part of the pride.

or?..


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## Draffut (Dec 26, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Keep dreaming and hoping that america will get benefits from other countrys advancement, Animation made before 1.900's by the Japanese. Anime come after 1.960's by the Japanese. You said Japan copying Animation from america, Russia, Germany and France? then how could america, Russia, Germany and France have no ability to make Anime while Japan on the other hand not only able to make Anime but able to make cartoon aswell.
> The same with Video Games, america even can't make any better games rather than the Japanese Video Games such as FF, Xenosaga, Suikoden, .hack//, etc. Did you think someone who are a pirate or copyer will make a better result rather than those who are the real inventor who make the Original ?
> 
> You wanna say Anime = cartoon because america or where you are now can't made Anime?
> You can say you are half Philippine and Vietnam, since it is soo easy to talk and not to act. I don't need to reply your other posting since in my eyes you are just dreaming on. I just hope you won't see the day where there are anti unite state america campaign in Japan or other ASIAN countrys.



First off, i can barely understand half of what you are saying, but I will take a shot.

Secondly, the first few animations ever made were done by a number of french filmmakers.  Not American or Japanese.  So this all becomes a mute point.  These were made as early as 1890. The oldest Japanese animation found to date is from 1907.

Lastly, the first Asian "anime" was very much based on it's Western (read: American) roots.  A large majority of it was based on the popular American cartoonist, Walt Disney.  Where the hell do you think the big eyes in Anime came from?


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

GaraKira said:


> But, how about they feel proud of their race because their race have acomplished things that will earn them recognition from the rest of the world. In that case, superiority isn't even a part of the pride.
> 
> or?..



In that case it's stupid as I illistrated before since any connection is purely skin deep. 

People pimp their races accomplishments often so they can one up another person and establish a sense of "being better" so they can develop self-esteem and all that Jazz. Even if it's unwitting racism, it's still racism.


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## Blue (Dec 26, 2006)

I would like to add the weight of my opinion, whatever it's worth, to a few things in this thread:

1. Japan is entirely responsible for WWII and it's consequences, including the use of nuclear weapons. Even had America used the weapons out of sheer maliciousness, something far from the truth, Japan would not have had cause to grieve.
This is in bold so Phoenix Knight can see it.
*Japan killed more innocent civilians, mostly Chinese, in WWII then the US Military has killed people, ever, including soldiers, in the history of the world.*

2. Here's another.
*The use of Nuclear weapons on Japan prevented at least a million deaths. Mostly Japanese.*

3. No race is superior to another. Taking pride in one's race is as juvenile and ignorant as taking pride in a randomly picked team in your school gym class.

4. On topic (oh my gawd!) I believe that Japan has every right and reason to re-establish a proper military. Their penance for WWII has been paid, and is continuing to be paid. As an independent country, they have the right to defend themselves - not against America you pathetic asshats - against North Korea and China.

5. Re: the particularly ignorant analogy of "if an unarmed man punches you, you have the right to kill him."
Corrected, it reads:
"If an unarmed man punches you in the face, you have the right to incapacitate him. Helping him to the hospital afterwards is not necessary but would be nice."


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## GaraKira (Dec 26, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Even if it's unwitting racism, it's still racism.



well yeah. I can agree with that. But for example, if you ask Pheonix knight (who obviously is Proud of his asian race) whether he honestly believes that Asians are better than everyone else, do you really think he'd say yes? I don't think so, although, I might be dead wrong. haha. let's hope not.

all I'm saying is that a proud person doesn't have to be racist, even if he technically and definition-wise is. lol. Try him for your self, you'll see that he don't think asians are better than everyone else. I think he just wants people to recognize his race and their acomplishments. One reason might be to make him self feel better or have a better self-esteem, as you said. 

but if it's a matter of technicall definition, then yes, I agree with what you're saying.

EDIT:: hmm.. but you are right though. I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing with you. it's just, sometimes people take pride in their race to show that they are not ashamed of belonging to it. this usually occurs when those individuals have been victims of racism towards themselves. hmmm..


also.. say an artist is proud of his work. that doesn't mean he feels supperior to other artists. he's just proud of his own acomplishment.
or maybe I'm wrong. cuz the more I think of it, the more I think of ways to prove that he may feel supperior to other artists.. lol.


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## Draffut (Dec 26, 2006)

Blue, only thing I would have to disagree with is:



> Their penance for WWII has been paid, and is continuing to be paid.



What Japan has had to pay compared to the other Axis powers has been very little.  Alot of this is based on the fact that America wanted an ally against the Soviet Union in the Cold War, so they didn't repremand Japan nearly as harshly as we should have after the war.


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## schism (Dec 26, 2006)

What are you talking about? The US has supported Japans nuclear endeavors for a while now, including them having the worlds first experimental nuclear fusion reactor. This whole no military no nukes thing is an internal debate among the Japanese, I'd bet the US would sell them nuclear technology anytime they wanted.


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## Blue (Dec 26, 2006)

Only hatred and contempt come from reprimanding the people of a country for the actions of it's leaders. While I'm not so idealistic to think America was entirely selfless in it's benevolent postwar administration, I'd like to think that the benevolence and wisdom of those responsible for it led to the productive policies engendering strong alliances with our former enemies.

It does take some significant wisdom and restraint to avoid enacting revenge on a fallen foe, especially one who started the war with such a detestable (entirely valid, and effective, but detestable) act as the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Oh, and also, what we know as anime today came from post-war Japan's efforts at creating a television industry without the resources for live-action cinematography. And yes, Disney is the progenitor of anime.


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## Draffut (Dec 26, 2006)

Blue said:


> Only hatred and contempt come from reprimanding the people of a country for the actions of it's leaders. While I'm not so idealistic to think America was entirely selfless in it's benevolent postwar administration, I'd like to think that the benevolence and wisdom of those responsible for it led to the productive policies engendering strong alliances with our former enemies.



A majority of the civilan population was ready with pikes to charge american soilers if we tried to invade.

The Japanese viewed thier emporer as a god, and themselves as nothing.  and people from otehr nations as less then that.  (hense, the intense cruelty shown in thigns like Rape of Nanking)

And if that was hte case, why was the same "benevolence" shown ot the German government and populaces.  Which was pretty much ripped asunder.

Though while tryign to look up actually numbers a moment ago, i was suprised to find that the Italians where not charged for any war crimes after WW2.  Interesting.  Anouther potential ally I guess...



> It does take some significant wisdom and restraint to avoid enacting revenge on a fallen foe, especially one who started the war with such a detestable (entirely valid, and effective, but detestable) act as the attack on Pearl Harbor.



To me, Pearl Harbor was nothing compared to thier march through China, and other asian nations.  and the fact that they completely covered up what they did, and to try and keep them as an ally we just ignored them and let Japan pretend they never commiteed those atrocities.

Since them, many former officers and soldiers have come forth and admitted alot of what had happened, and what they did.  But the government as a whole still denies it ever happened.  Or downplays it to be only a small fraction of what actually occured.



> Oh, and also, what we know as anime today came from post-war Japan's efforts at creating a television industry without the resources for live-action cinematography. And yes, Disney is the progenitor of anime.



Good info.


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## s0id3 (Dec 26, 2006)

Blue said:


> 4. On topic (oh my gawd!) I believe that Japan has every right and reason to re-establish a proper military. Their penance for WWII has been paid, and is continuing to be paid. As an independent country, *they have the right to defend themselves - not against America you pathetic asshats - against North Korea and China.*



well ya see...Japan has a defense force, and plus we have a protectorate over Japan, anything happens to them, we protect them(America). So they already have the means to defend themselves...just not attack. And even if those taboo laws are broken, i still dont think Japan would be so willing to create/build up their military force...that means it'll take away from everything else...why do you think they're so advanced? because they never have to worry about anything military and thus focus on economy and domestic things.
okay now this is sorta off topic...but Shinzo Abe the prime minister of japan the topic starter seems to love wants to break those laws...surei suppose it ain't a bad thing...btu if u read up on the guy..he wants to deny and change history...basically wants to edit history textbooks and make it like Japan never had 'comfort women' in ww2...seriously i mean does America erase th things we did to blacks and Indians in our textbooks no...well yeah read up on the guy...some things are okay bout him..but the whole changing history..he's fucking nuts.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 26, 2006)

Blue said:
			
		

> 4. On topic (oh my gawd!) I believe that Japan has every right and reason to re-establish a proper military. Their penance for WWII has been paid, and is continuing to be paid. As an independent country, they have the right to defend themselves - not against America you pathetic asshats - against North Korea and China.



Odd, I don't recall them paying out comepnsation or even apologizing for the entire episode. Until that point Japan has done nothing to lift itself of the burden of it's past.

Japan can already "defend itself" against North Korea without building offensive weapons, and any fight with China is already over since the JMSDF has such supremacy not that it's needed since the USN would carry the bulk of that conflict, so a massive upsurge in re-arming is nothing but penis-waving. Remember the last time a region full of powerful economic entities with age old hatreds and rivalries rearmed? 

Article IX has kept a lid on a lot of old war wounds and kept egos in check, seeing them being re-opened at such a critical point in Asian history is asking for something to go down.


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## Razgriez (Dec 26, 2006)

> 4. On topic (oh my gawd!) I believe that Japan has every right and reason to re-establish a proper military. Their penance for WWII has been paid, and is continuing to be paid. As an independent country, they have the right to defend themselves - not against America you pathetic asshats - against North Korea and China.



NOS already explained it but Ill say it again just for good measure.

Japan already have a reasonable force capable of protecting their homeland against China and North Korea. You can be sure that the US and other key allies to Japan will also jump onto protecting the country against any enemies.

Japan just isnt allowed to build an actual "military" (their defense force is actually civilians hired and arent considered actual enlisted people under the government) that is capable of committing an offensive. We took that ability from them after WW2 since well... Japan proven to be one twisted fucked up nation and a dire threat to the United States.

If Japan didnt want to be in this situation they should of never attacked the United States in the first place. They took the risk, it landed in an unfortunate situation for them and now they are a occupied country imcapable of creating a standing army capable of attacking other nations and cant preach how awesome they are in class.


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## Blue (Dec 26, 2006)

While I emphatically agree that an official apology is needed from the Japanese Government to, well, pretty much the whole world, paying reparations is going a bit far - remember all the good that did France when it made Germany pay. France gets a few million deutschmarks and Germany gets France. 

The penance I referred to is the continious occupation of Japan by American troops ever since WWII with very little complaint. Of course, they have no right to complain - but neither does Iraq, and they're not just complaining, they're blowing shit up. In that regard Japan has shown itself to be a - at the risk of sounding patronizing - mature country.

It's true they don't need a military when the US could walk all over any possible enemy, but denying them military soverignity is just being petty and unforgiving.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 26, 2006)

Razgriez said:


> NOS already explained it but Ill say it again just for good measure.
> 
> Japan already have a reasonable force capable of protecting their homeland against China and North Korea. You can be sure that the US and other key allies to Japan will also jump onto protecting the country against any enemies.
> 
> ...



Yes we promise to protect them.  And we did in the past.  But who is to guarranty that we will be there to protect them from (theoretically for the sake of arguement) China North Korea in the future.  And also, we have a track record or abandoning our allies before, one that easily stands out, Vietnam.


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## s0id3 (Dec 26, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> Yes we promise to protect them.  And we did in the past.  But who is to guarranty that we will be there to protect them from (theoretically for the sake of arguement) China North Korea in the future.  And also, we have a track record or abandoning our allies before, one that easily stands out, Vietnam.



well that was b/c idiotic civilians didnt liek the war and all the political shit around the Vietnam war. And ya know...if the U.S. was actully allowed to invade North Vietnam the war would have ended in our favor a long time ago...


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## Razgriez (Dec 27, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> Yes we promise to protect them.  And we did in the past.  But who is to guarranty that we will be there to protect them from (theoretically for the sake of arguement) China North Korea in the future.  And also, we have a track record or abandoning our allies before, one that easily stands out, Vietnam.



Well if you so very much like your anime, and video games I dont think you'll disagree with a war against North Korea and China if they become aggressors against Japan.

we also signed a bilateral agreement with them stating if someone declared war on them the US would come to their protection. Then theres how Japan is a strategic location for if anything were to happen in the Asian theatre in the first place. Im confident that we wouldnt back out of the defense of Japan unless we were truly defeated and didnt have the capabilities of defending Japan.... which would be bad very very bad.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 27, 2006)

Blue said:


> The penance I referred to is the continious occupation of Japan by American troops ever since WWII with very little complaint. Of course, they have no right to complain - but neither does Iraq, and they're not just complaining, they're blowing shit up. In that regard Japan has shown itself to be a - at the risk of sounding patronizing - mature country.



You make it sound so overblown. 3/4 of US forces are based of Okinawa (which is the Sicily of Japan, it only becomes important when someone else is sitting on it) and even at that it's not more then 10,000 IIRC. That's one hell of an occupation the US has got going.



Blue said:


> It's true they don't need a military when the US could walk all over any possible enemy, but denying them military soverignity is just being petty and unforgiving.



Petty and unforgiving? We have no such bans on Germany because they've shown they've distanced themsleves from their past. Until Japan does anything of the sort re-arming is throwing fuel on the fire as it were.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> well that was b/c idiotic civilians didnt liek the war and all the political shit around the Vietnam war. And ya know...if the U.S. was actully allowed to invade North Vietnam the war would have ended in our favor a long time ago...



That is the whole point.  It doesn't matter what the justification for us to back out, the point is that we back out when they need us the most.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

Razgriez said:


> Well if you so very much like your anime, and video games I dont think you'll disagree with a war against North Korea and China if they become aggressors against Japan.
> 
> we also signed a bilateral agreement with them stating if someone declared war on them the US would come to their protection. Then theres how Japan is a strategic location for if anything were to happen in the Asian theatre in the first place. Im confident that we wouldnt back out of the defense of Japan unless we were truly defeated and didnt have the capabilities of defending Japan.... which would be bad very very bad.



What is a treaty?  A treaty is a promise signed into a contract.  Yet, it still doesn't guarranty anything.  It is not like we can't back out of a contract.  I just point out the fact that we have a track record.  Like you, I too have confident in our government to keep its words.  But we also have to look from the other point of view.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 27, 2006)

> It is not like we can't back out of a contract.



You've obviously never taken a loan out. Most contracts have penalities for backing out of them.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> You've obviously never taken a loan out. Most contracts have penalities for backing out of them.



And yet, people default their loans all the time.


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## s0id3 (Dec 27, 2006)

I doubt we'd back outta our treaty to protect Japan. And i agree with NOS, you make it seem like the U.S. occupation is bad...


> Petty and unforgiving? We have no such bans on Germany because they've shown they've distanced themsleves from their past. Until Japan does anything of the sort re-arming is throwing fuel on the fire as it were.


I totally agree with this.


> That is the whole point. It doesn't matter what the justification for us to back out, the point is that we back out when they need us the most.


Well you see the American people at the time didn't believe we belonged there or should help them. And we didn't have a treaty w/ S Vietnam saying we'd protect them. Like I've said before it's all the political matters that brought us down. We won every major battle but lost the war. If we invaded N Vietnam then China would come in and we didn't want that. Though it is bastardly that we abandoned S Vietnam it is sorta understandable as well.


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## Toby (Dec 27, 2006)

Blue said:


> While I emphatically agree that an official apology is needed from the Japanese Government to, well, pretty much the whole world, paying reparations is going a bit far - remember all the good that did France when it made Germany pay. France gets a few million deutschmarks and Germany gets France.



I think that your empathetic concession is not weighing up for your sympathy for the Japanese people. Whilst we can debate what the rights of a sovereign nation are we must also consider how the standing force of Japan is faring just to foresee how their future military would feature itself. For one thing, their defense forces in Iraq are doing a terrific job: Zero bullets fired and zero casualties. On the other hand, Japan is the party most likely to be influenced by PR China' expansionist agenda in the Chinese sea. With their own military forces their own agenda in the ICJ will look far worse than it already is. The sympathey you have for Japan's sovereign rights are possibly going to feed the nationalists' movement in Japan and make the situation far worse in the Chinese sea (if not worse for Taiwan's sake).



Blue said:


> The penance I referred to is the continious occupation of Japan by American troops ever since WWII with very little complaint. Of course, they have no right to complain - but neither does Iraq, and they're not just complaining, they're blowing shit up. In that regard Japan has shown itself to be a - at the risk of sounding patronizing - mature country.



The difference is that after US intervention, Japan was forcibly demilitarised and Iraq was told to rebuild its forces with the coalition's aid. Japan also got the benefit of US's maintained presence ensuring peace in the region, whilst in Iraq's case that presences causes revolt. 

So are they really comparable?



Blue said:


> It's true they don't need a military when the US could walk all over any possible enemy, but denying them military soverignity is just being petty and unforgiving.



I won't comment petty, but rather your powerful term of "unforgiving" here. To forgive means that the US and other Allied victorious nations are satisfied with Japan's amends, more importantly its apology. That apology has never been uttered. They admitted defeat, but not guilt.

Edit: WTF, Why am I the first poster in this thread?


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## s0id3 (Dec 27, 2006)

^yeah found that strange...lol yes, and since Japan hasnt even apologized yet i dont think they should have a military force, oh and did Germany apologize for ww2?


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 27, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> And yet, people default their loans all the time.



You do know what happens in default, right, _right?_


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## Blue (Dec 27, 2006)

Toby_Christ said:


> I think that your empathetic concession is not weighing up for your sympathy for the Japanese people. Whilst we can debate what the rights of a sovereign nation are we must also consider how the standing force of Japan is faring just to foresee how their future military would feature itself.


My emphatic concession has nothing to do with my supposed empath(e)ic (clever wordplay, or spelling slip? Don't answer that) feelings for Japan. Japan sucks for causing the deaths of maybe 20 million people in WWII. But what you have to realize is that 99% of the people directly or indirectly responsible for that are dead. While their progeny carry their stigma by association, it's not fair to place the whole burden of it on them. 
What's unfortunate is that the United States shouldn't have the right or responsibility to be the world's fucking babysitter, but being one of the countries least likely to either commit or allow insane acts and being the only country with the power to enforce it's will on pretty much anyone, that's just the role it's in. At some point the decision has to be made to let the world grow up on it's own, lest it find itself bled dry by the self-serving interests of independent nations requiring supervision. Japan has been a model prisoner. Time for parole.




> The difference is that after US intervention, Japan was forcibly demilitarised and Iraq was told to rebuild its forces with the coalition's aid. Japan also got the benefit of US's maintained presence ensuring peace in the region, whilst in Iraq's case that presences causes revolt.
> 
> So are they really comparable?


Of course they're comparable. Your second point was just the comparison I was making. For Japan, US soldiers were protectors and customers. For Iraqis, they're targets. How, besides the attitude of the conquered, are the situations different?
Japan's military was not needed, because their was no internal threat to combat. Iraq's is. 




> I won't comment petty, but rather your powerful term of "unforgiving" here. To forgive means that the US and other Allied victorious nations are satisfied with Japan's amends, more importantly its apology. That apology has never been uttered. They admitted defeat, but not guilt.


Won't argue that things have been a bit indirect, but...


I think the right attitude is there. 


> Edit: WTF, Why am I the first poster in this thread?


Forum timewarps - one of the servers we run off of is fucky. Can't be helped. :/


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 27, 2006)

Blue said:
			
		

> But what you have to realize is that 99% of the people directly or indirectly responsible for that are dead. While their progeny carry their stigma by association, it's not fair to place the whole burden of it on them.



1% of Waffen SS are alive and the government refuses to go after them, what do you do?

The people may be dead, but their crimes are still unpunished/unacknowledged. I wasn't aware there was a statuate of limitations on rape, murder, and starting a war. Japan would draw a lot of heat of itself it simply bit the bullet and said like Germany, an actual model prisioner, "wow we fucked up big time." 

But no, they still insist they did nothing wrong and whitewash their history to coorespond to that loopy ideal. They're plugging their ears and going "lalallalalala" at their past crimes, and to make things worse seem on the verge of venerating that era when Japan was "free." If you want Nazi Germany treating World War II like it was the victim (or worse yet, dolling over those fancy SS uniforms), there's something off.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> You do know what happens in default, right, _right?_



Off course I know.  But it doesn't stop them from defaulting their loans.  Let not talk about individual loans, let's talk about countries that default their loans.  Russia, very recently refuse to pay its loans to other countries, and did anyone do anything about it?  Right now, we are the most powerful nation in the world.  We have all the military power, if we back out of whatever contract we're in, who is going to make us pay for it.  In terms of world treaty, people backing out of treaty all the time.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> 1% of Waffen SS are alive and the government refuses to go after them, what do you do?
> 
> The people may be dead, but their crimes are still unpunished/unacknowledged. I wasn't aware there was a statuate of limitations on rape, murder, and starting a war. Japan would draw a lot of heat of itself it simply bit the bullet and said like Germany, an actual model prisioner, "wow we fucked up big time."
> 
> But no, they still insist they did nothing wrong and whitewash their history to coorespond to that loopy ideal. They're plugging their ears and going "lalallalalala" at their past crimes, and to make things worse seem on the verge of venerating that era when Japan was "free." If you want Nazi Germany treating World War II like it was the victim (or worse yet, dolling over those fancy SS uniforms), there's something off.



I thought that our laws stated that once a prisoner died, his crime died with him.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 27, 2006)

Blue said:


> My emphatic concession has nothing to do with my supposed empath(e)ic (clever wordplay, or spelling slip? Don't answer that) feelings for Japan. Japan sucks for causing the deaths of maybe 20 million people in WWII. But what you have to realize is that 99% of the people directly or indirectly responsible for that are dead. While their progeny carry their stigma by association, it's not fair to place the whole burden of it on them.
> What's unfortunate is that the United States shouldn't have the right or responsibility to be the world's fucking babysitter, but being one of the countries least likely to either commit or allow insane acts and being the only country with the power to enforce it's will on pretty much anyone, that's just the role it's in. At some point the decision has to be made to let the world grow up on it's own, lest it find itself bled dry by the self-serving interests of independent nations requiring supervision. Japan has been a model prisoner. Time for parole.
> 
> 
> ...



Blue I agree with you.  Actually we are not babysitting.  The fact that we have troops station all around the world (not just in Japan) is for strategic purposes against the Soviet Union.  Right after World War 2, marked the beginning of the Cold War, the rest of the world was recuperating from the damage and was unable to battle the spread of communism and we use that opportunity to put our troops in strategic locations to combat against the Soviet Union.  They welcome that.  But now the Soviet Union no longer existed, and yet we still there.  We still claim that we are there to protect them from whatever danger that might poses on them.  But in truce, it is meant to protect us and (I don't know how to say this) to keep our eyes on them (if you know what I mean).  

We keep our troops there as a way to threaten them not to do anything silly because we have our troops there ready to attack them at notice.  We don't need time to deploy troops.  That's one of the reason why we are starting to loose our credibility and alienated by the rest of the world.  What they see is that our troops should be in our country.  It doesn't have any right to be station in their countries.  To them it is like soft-core occupation.


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## Brandt (Dec 28, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> I thought that our laws stated that once a prisoner died, his crime died with him.



The problem with that idea is that the victims, or relatives of the victims, are still left without justice being served. You can't nail all the bad guys so at times you just say, 'Tough luck.' It really is a cruel world.

Also, I think the Japanese would appreciate US presence once the shit with North Korea hits the fan. The US already has troops in South Korea (about 30,000 soldiers), but I don't know how many Marines and Navy personnel they have in Japan.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 28, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> Off course I know.  But it doesn't stop them from defaulting their loans.  Let not talk about individual loans, let's talk about countries that default their loans.  Russia, very recently refuse to pay its loans to other countries, and did anyone do anything about it?  Right now, we are the most powerful nation in the world.  We have all the military power, if we back out of whatever contract we're in, who is going to make us pay for it.  In terms of world treaty, people backing out of treaty all the time.



So you propose following the Russian example of stiffing loan collecters and proving yourself not to be trusted is a viable example for nations to follow? People can pull out of contracts, but Japan pushing US troops or Naval units out would have repercussions like freezes on technology transfer.



amaterasujutsu said:


> I thought that our laws stated that once a prisoner died, his crime died with him.



Ah, but people who committed the crimes do live, no? Even then, when it comes to a geo-political sense, crimes do not die that easilly.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> So you propose following the Russian example of stiffing loan collecters and proving yourself not to be trusted is a viable example for nations to follow? People can pull out of contracts, but Japan pushing US troops or Naval units out would have repercussions like freezes on technology transfer.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but people who committed the crimes do live, no? Even then, when it comes to a geo-political sense, crimes do not die that easilly.



First of all I thought we are discussing about us backing out of our promise to protect Japan from whatever danger that they might face in the future.  So my point is who is to guarranty that we would not back out.  We had a record of backing at critical moment.  Second  we are discussing Japan pushing US troops out....

Third, as for crimes, if what you said is true then are you suggesting that we should pursue and kill all those people who committed of war crime?  If so, then I think we should pursue and arrest and kill all of Saddam Baathists party.  Also, many of the Japanese people (soldiers, generals, emperors) who commited war crimes against Chinese civilians at the time should be kill as well right?  If they died but their children and grandchildren still alive then we should kill them as well right or put them in jail or whatever, right?  Then what about us?  What make us (our government/military) different from the rest of the world?


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 28, 2006)

Oh we do? We actually have a bad habit of staying on for too long. Vietnam called.

Yes. I suggested we actively hunt them down and kill them. Exactly. No you tart I suggested that as long as *Japan* refuses to publically apologize for all the deeds done on the nations behalf (and in specific terms, none of this "there was unpleasantness" bullshit) that they have no grown up as a nation and properly distanced themselves from those hideous events.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Oh we do? We actually have a bad habit of staying on for too long. Vietnam called.
> 
> Yes. I suggested we actively hunt them down and kill them. Exactly. No you tart I suggested that as long as *Japan* refuses to publically apologize for all the deeds done on the nations behalf (and in specific terms, none of this "there was unpleasantness" bullshit) that they have no grown up as a nation and properly distanced themselves from those hideous events.



That is only your opinion.  The majority of us don't see it that way.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 28, 2006)

....right. Because the number of people who believe something has an intrinsic effect on it's validity. You may have taken Poli Sci, but you failed logic.


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## s0id3 (Dec 28, 2006)

^ I agree NOS


Blue said:


> My emphatic concession has nothing to do with my supposed empath(e)ic (clever wordplay, or spelling slip? Don't answer that) feelings for Japan. Japan sucks for causing the deaths of maybe 20 million people in WWII. But what you have to realize is that *99% of the people* directly or indirectly responsible for that *are dead.* While their progeny carry their stigma by association, it's not fair to place the whole burden of it on them.


that still leaves 1%.


> What's unfortunate is that the United States shouldn't have the right or responsibility to be the world's fucking babysitter, but being one of the countries least likely to either commit or allow insane acts and being the only country with the power to enforce it's will on pretty much anyone, that's just the role it's in. At some point the decision has to be made to let the world grow up on it's own, lest it find itself bled dry by the self-serving interests of independent nations requiring supervision. Japan has been a model prisoner. Time for parole.


when you're country is a world super power, or _the_ world super power you kinda have to be the world police. You're militarily the strongest and also have a lot of influence, and you can use those to better or worsen the world. Other countries look up to you and expect certain things of your country. And until Japan official apologizes to the world...they're not ready for true independence...i think that should be their first step if you want to be 'free' of the U.S.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> ^ I agree NOS
> 
> that still leaves 1%.
> 
> when you're country is a world super power, or _the_ world super power you kinda have to be the world police. You're militarily the strongest and also have a lot of influence, and you can use those to better or worsen the world. Other countries look up to you and expect certain things of your country. And until Japan official apologizes to the world...they're not ready for true independence...i think that should be their first step if you want to be 'free' of the U.S.



This kind of attitude is the kind that make the world hates us more.  And you're wonder why they hate us.  Do you know what humble means?


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> ....right. Because the number of people who believe something has an intrinsic effect on it's validity. You may have taken Poli Sci, but you failed logic.



Then I suggest you take it and you'll see whether my logic failed or not.  Until then, you're being ignorant because you don't understand how the world works.  You are like a frog under the well.  You are like one of those spoil American who don't know that there is a big world out there.  When something bad happen to you, you'll just cry and whine why is this happen to us?  What did we do to deserve this?


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## s0id3 (Dec 28, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> This kind of attitude is the kind that make the world hates us more.  And you're wonder why they hate us.  Do you know what humble means?



Is asking for an apology really so arrogant? I fail to see how asking for Japan to apologize would make ppl hate the U.S. more. Is an apology that much to ask for? Or would the Japanese rather kill themselves than apologize or recognize their wrongs?


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> Is asking for an apology really so arrogant? I fail to see how asking for Japan to apologize would make ppl hate the U.S. more. Is an apology that much to ask for? Or would the Japanese rather kill themselves than apologize or recognize their wrongs?



As I said before, if we want Japan to apologize for what they did during World War 2, maybe we should go ahead and apologize to Japan for dropping tow bombs.  We should apologize to the Indians for genocide.  Every other countries from the Imperialism forward should apologize for colonizing, killing other countries civilians, exhaustind their natural resources as well.  

Also, who gives us the right to demand that this or that country to apologize.  This is the reason why I said we are arrogant and the world alienated us for it.  We consider ourselves the police of the world.  It may work in the past during the cold war.  But now the cold war has ended, the world don't want us to boss them around anymore.  Do you know why the European Union is formed?  If not then I suggest you read the book "The United States of Europe."  Let me give you some additional information why the world don't like us (more so toward the Bush Administration).  

The United Nation should be a place where every participating country have their voice heard.  The UN is there to maintain world peace. The policy that passed by the United Nation should be fair to everyone or something like that.  But we treat the United Nation like our pawn.  We use our influence or power (whichever you want to refer) to force our policies through, without the consent of the majority.  When we want to do something, no other country can stop us.  Even if it means the US vs the rest of the countries in the UN.   Before we can go to Iraq, we need to get approval from the UN.  No other country except Britain supported us because they don't think it was wise.  They know that the Bush Administration is lying about WMD, ties with the Terrorists etc.  But we still invade Iraq anyway.  The conflict between Palestinians and Isreal could have end a lot sooner, but we are the one that stop the UN from stepping in sooner to prevent much bloodshed.  

Whenever the UN don't support us, we go ahead and do it anyway.  We also threaten to break away from the UN and threaten to stop funding to the UN.  (For those political analysts who suggest that we should cut ties with the UN are stupid.  If we do then we will be isolated.  ANd you know what that means...) No other country in the UN can do what we do.  We use the UN as our playground so that we can bully them.  The same thing with WTO, NAFTA, you catch the drift...

Whenever government of small countries do something wrong such as mistreating prisoners of war we condemn them and passed through legislation so that we can trial them for war crime.  When the Bush Administration torture the terrorists, he actually go against the UN law (I forgot the title, I am bad at remember specific things) that was endorse by us.  Then he passed legislation to allow us to torture the terrorist or prisoner of war so that no one can accuse his Administration of war crime.  Whenever something go in favor of us, we endorse it and punish countries that break it.  Whenever the same law that we endorse and use to punish countries that break it in the past no longer favors us we said that it doesn't apply to us.


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## Draffut (Dec 28, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> As I said before, if we want Japan to apologize for what they did during World War 2, maybe we should go ahead and apologize to Japan for dropping tow bombs.  We should apologize to the Indians for genocide.  Every other countries from the Imperialism forward should apologize for colonizing, killing other countries civilians, exhaustind their natural resources as well.



The deaths from all these combined only grace the amount of death and carnage Japan laid upon mainland Asia.  Things like raping a 10 year old girl for 2 days strait until she died.  Chemical and Biological tests on still living humans.  Freezing them, and amputating limbs while they were still alive.  till all they had left was a torso and head.  Riping the fetus's from women's bellies, and throwing them in the air for Bayonet practice.

If you think what we did to the Native Americans, or Imperialism, or anything else really, even gets near the atrocities Japan commited, you need to check your facts.

But on the same note, we have apologized to the Native American, given them lots of privately owned land, and tax free Casino's.

Most nations have been set free from their European colonists.  So I dont see the point here either.



> Also, who gives us the right to demand that this or that country to apologize.  This is the reason why I said we are arrogant and the world alienated us for it.  We consider ourselves the police of the world.  It may work in the past during the cold war.  But now the cold war has ended, the world don't want us to boss them around anymore.  Do you know why the European Union is formed?  If not then I suggest you read the book "The United States of Europe."  Let me give you some additional information why the world don't like us (more so toward the Bush Administration).



The fact that Japan lost WWII is plenty of reason to demand it.  I am pretty sure that is part of losing a war.  Ya, the world (and europe especially) like to act like they hate what we do.  But when shit over there goes sour, who do they always come crying back to?  America.  Other nations might not like the shit we do, but most of it is nessisary.  And they will magically "forget" they dislike os once they need our help.  How Miraculous.



> The United Nation should be a place where every participating country have their voice heard.  The UN is there to maintain world peace. The policy that passed by the United Nation should be fair to everyone or something like that.  But we treat the United Nation like our pawn.  We use our influence or power (whichever you want to refer) to force our policies through, without the consent of the majority.  When we want to do something, no other country can stop us.  Even if it means the US vs the rest of the countries in the UN.   Before we can go to Iraq, we need to get approval from the UN.  No other country except Britain supported us because they don't think it was wise.  They know that the Bush Administration is lying about WMD, ties with the Terrorists etc.  But we still invade Iraq anyway.  The conflict between Palestinians and Isreal could have end a lot sooner, but we are the one that stop the UN from stepping in sooner to prevent much bloodshed.



USA provies the most money to the UN.  Provides by far the most military strength.  We were the main founders of the UN.  I do have a problem with how we undermined the UN's decision for Iraq, but I dont see where you are havign a huge problem of how we treat it like a "pawn" for.  Why dont we stop providing military and economic strength to the UN, and watch it fall over.



> Whenever the UN don't support us, we go ahead and do it anyway.  We also threaten to break away from the UN and threaten to stop funding to the UN.  (For those political analysts who suggest that we should cut ties with the UN are stupid.  If we do then we will be isolated.  ANd you know what that means...) No other country in the UN can do what we do.  We use the UN as our playground so that we can bully them.  The same thing with WTO, NAFTA, you catch the drift...



... you mean, we invaded Iraq once....   that is not "whenever" or far from it.  Breaking away from the UN woudl be about the stupidest thing possible for both sides.  But that doesn;t change what would happen to the UN if we did it.  And if the UN did colapse, we would not be that "isolated"  since there would be no governing body for us ot be isolated from.



> Whenever government of small countries do something wrong such as mistreating prisoners of war we condemn them and passed through legislation so that we can trial them for war crime.  When the Bush Administration torture the terrorists, he actually go against the UN law (I forgot the title, I am bad at remember specific things) that was endorse by us.  Then he passed legislation to allow us to torture the terrorist or prisoner of war so that no one can accuse his Administration of war crime.  Whenever something go in favor of us, we endorse it and punish countries that break it.  Whenever the same law that we endorse and use to punish countries that break it in the past no longer favors us we said that it doesn't apply to us.



Actually, bein in the military myself, I can tell you first hand that we actively try and follow all guidelines under the Geneva convention.  you know, those guidelines of combat that our enemies use to make us look bad by not following.

As far as the torture thing goes, you would be amazed at the huge span that "torture" can dictate.  from a slap, to waterboarding , to full physical extremes.

I persoanlly endorse up to the middle ground of sleep deprevation and waterboarding to get information.  It's just when you get above this, and start causing permanent mental an physical damage that you have problems.

And I severly hope you are not tryign to compare America's methods of Waterboarding and Sleep Deprevation, to that of Iraqi's Beheading and Cattle Proding, or Japan half burying people into the frozen ground and having German Sheppard rip thier organs out.


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## Toby (Dec 28, 2006)

Blue said:


> My emphatic concession has nothing to do with my supposed empath(e)ic (clever wordplay, or spelling slip? Don't answer that) feelings for Japan. Japan sucks for causing the deaths of maybe 20 million people in WWII. But what you have to realize is that 99% of the people directly or indirectly responsible for that are dead. While their progeny carry their stigma by association, it's not fair to place the whole burden of it on them.



Ah, now that's getting at an interesting point. My thought behind keeping Japan demilitarised (for what that terminology is worth now) is fairly acceptable when considering how, regardless of which generation it is, Japan continues to have a "big dick" contest with China. I think that the six-party talks work quite well because Japan does not represent a military power which could make PR China act more defensively in f.ex disarming NK's nuclear programme. That is, I don't want NK to have that nuclear programme.

I agree that the generation of war-mongers is gone, but not the nationalists. I know quite a few Japanese friends who are studying history and (duh, they don't represent all Japanese, but) think that the high school history books suck so much that they alone lead to them not going home to establish a family. They just don't want their kids to be raised with such a biased perception. And you know that to equally justify the rearmament, Japan would find it a minor concession to just admit that their past generations screwed up when they are in no way responsible for their actions. In other words, I think that for the very same reason as you stated, the past generation being gone, Japan needs to deal with their past.

What's the burden in keeping what is traditionally the most expensive affair of state? Japan's booming economy faces quite the challenge if their market is to expand and accept for instance a foreign investor for arms manufacturing. Alternatively, Japan being the most technologically advanced nation would have an excellent ground for being an arms manufacturer in the region. But with both aspects considered, do you want another army to bother the fragile peace between China and Japan? It may work, I won't say there is a definite answer to what is right and wrong here, but we shouldn't test the nationalists' interest in Japan's military agenda. If all goes well, Japan will advance to being an intellectual state where nationalists are not recognised as equals to the geniuses which have brought its economy up to being a lead example for the world to admire.



Blue said:


> What's unfortunate is that the United States shouldn't have the right or responsibility to be the world's fucking babysitter, but being one of the countries least likely to either commit or allow insane acts and being the only country with the power to enforce it's will on pretty much anyone, that's just the role it's in. At some point the decision has to be made to let the world grow up on it's own, lest it find itself bled dry by the self-serving interests of independent nations requiring supervision. Japan has been a model prisoner. Time for parole.



It is unfortunate that you have the impression of the United States being the world's babysitter. That is in fact unreasonable. The Allied Nations, not just the US wanted Japan demilitarised. The case that puts it apart from other examples of defeated fascist regimes is that Japan is on its fucking own. Germany is in the NATO, and Italy isn't exactly surrounded by syndicalists anymore. Japan is left with two of the most powerful nations on earth bordering it. If I was to accept Japan's rearmament, it would be because they were in a military alliance. They are however not, and it will increase the hostilities between the US and PR China regarding the acknowledgement of the Republic of Taiwan. 

Japan is not a prisoner. It's a spoiled child according to the defensive aspect. Oh yeah, they were spanked once and it was horrible. But that's it. They still blow raspberries at China behind the boot of the US.



Blue said:


> Of course they're comparable. Your second point was just the comparison I was making. For Japan, US soldiers were protectors and customers. For Iraqis, they're targets. How, besides the attitude of the conquered, are the situations different?
> Japan's military was not needed, because their was no internal threat to combat. Iraq's is.



How they are different? That is rhetorical, right? 
The US waged war with Japan for five years as a total war state, and had the other Allied Nations backing them. Japan's Rape of Nanking is far worse than the Iran-Iraq War. The US lead a coalition against Iraq, and it was a limited war. 

After the war in Japan, five of the most powerful nations on earth, its conquerors, were declared untouchable by a UN Security Council veto and permanent membership. All five agreed to humiliate them by depriving Japan of its military. In the case of Iraq all five nations bicker amongst themselves in the SC. There is no depriving of Iraq's army because the nationalist sentiment has not been crushed. Because they were not attacked with nuclear arms. 

A difference? 



Blue said:


> Won't argue that things have been a bit indirect, but...
> 
> 
> I think the right attitude is there.



Oh but that attitude exists in all the other nations which were defeated in WWII, mate. As you asked for a difference earlier, all I want to know is why they won't apologise for The Rape of Nanking and establishing a false regime by a former emperor in Manchuria. They wanted a fascesinter if there ever would be such a thing.



Blue said:


> Forum timewarps - one of the servers we run off of is fucky. Can't be helped. :/



H?kay.


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## T4R0K (Dec 28, 2006)

Though a serious thread, it's made of lol and "WTF ?" .

PHOENIX Knight seems very "humble". "Humble" as in "Borderline fascist"... I remember when in the Balkans around 1991 all sides were talking shit like that (damn, I just need to get my father started on the "Bosnian Nation", and I'm on for a ride to stupidity. And let's not forget the Serbs... It's as if they invented anything when they speak and guilty of nothing. No side was innocent) Reasons why I HATE sick patriotism and nationalism. It makes IQ points plummet...



Draffut said:


> The deaths from all these combined barely grace the amount of death and carnage Japan laid upon mainland Asia.  Things like raping a 10 year old girl for 2 days strait until she died.  Chemical and Biological tests on still living humans.  Freezing them, and amputating limbs while they were still alive.  till all they had left was a torso.  Riping the fetus's from women's bellies, and throwing them in the air for Bayonet practice.
> 
> If you think what we did to the Native Americans, or Imperialism, or anything else really, even gets near the atrocities Japan commited, you need to check your facts.



No wonder they joined the Axis... Must have been the Nazi mad scientists that adviced them to use people as guinea pigs. I read the story of a "research" unit of the japanese imperial army and the experiments they did in China during WW2. Definitaly takes more humanity away from the japanese of back then than anything the US did. But well... the difference is only that the US just torture sometimes, and the Axis (mainly Nazis + WW2 Japanese) conducted systematical, cold and scarier experiments...

Well, every country has something to ask to be forgiven. The USA "shyly" said sorry to the Native Americans, sorry for the nukes, Germany said sorry for anything that happened when they were under Hitler and they even worked hard to teach their children about what they did since some recent years (for long did the involved ones said nothing to their young ones until the first documents were released in the press, the books or on TV) For Japan, I just never really saw them do that effort wholeheartly. Just very shy mumbles of "sorry", but nothing in litterature or TV. I wonder if the kids learn "We did this to the rest of Asia ? Damn, our grand-parents were fucked in their brains or what ?" like the Germans did starting from the 70s.

Oh, and to not be hypocritical, France still hasn't apologized for Algeria. They did some not that nice things too. There's a movement here that wants it.



> But on the same note, we have apologized to the Native American, given them lots of privately owned land, and tax free Casino's.



And they even bought out the Hard Rock Café licence !! Their casinos really seem successfull ! (or Hard Rock Café was losing money and was sold for financial problems lol)

Edit : hot damn ! Sorry Toby Christ ! I forgot your post was the first of this thread ! When I said "original poster, I was thinking of PHOENIX Knight. Sorry duuuude !!!


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 28, 2006)

Razgriez said:


> If you can find that Japanese teacher guy's editorial I know he had a picture of plaque in the Kyoto Museum or something practically stating that WW2 was the result of the US's embargo on Japan's oil resources and thats about all it really states. Yeah... bitter to the end.



Technically speaking that is an accurate statement. Also technically speaking it ignores why the embargo was in place, but nobody cares about such fineries right?


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## T4R0K (Dec 28, 2006)

Razgriez said:


> a picture of plaque in the Kyoto Museum or something practically stating that WW2 was the result of the US's embargo on Japan's oil resources and thats about all it really states. Yeah... bitter to the end.



I heard of that plaque too ! I was amazed by how much bad faith (not like in "wrong faith", but like the way to deny or ignore stuff) the japanese displayed when talking about WW2. I read something in a french newspaper about a kind of revival of the "Great Japan" ideology in some mangas where "gaijin" are not just foreigners anymore, but really "low life". For those who know the Manga/Anime "Zipang", those make it look like it's really accurate (even if it doesn't neither help historical truth by avoiding/ignoring/denying key questions of that period, but it's not really it's goal too... And it's a good fiction though)

edit : WTF ? My reply to Razgriez is ABOVE his post !!???


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## Razgriez (Dec 28, 2006)

> Well, every country has something to ask to be forgiven. The USA "shyly" said sorry to the Native Americans, sorry for the nukes, Germany said sorry for anything that happened when they were under Hitler and they even worked hard to teach their children about what they did since some recent years (for long did the involved ones said nothing to their young ones until the first documents were released in the press, the books or on TV) For Japan, I just never really saw them do that effort wholeheartly. Just very shy mumbles of "sorry", but nothing in litterature or TV. I wonder if the kids learn "We did this to the rest of Asia ? Damn, our grand-parents were fucked in their brains or what ?" like the Germans did starting from the 70s.



If you can find that Japanese teacher guy's editorial I know he had a picture of plaque in the Kyoto Museum or something practically stating that WW2 was the result of the US's embargo on Japan's oil resources and thats about all it really states. Yeah... bitter to the end.


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## s0id3 (Dec 28, 2006)

T4R0K said:


> I heard of that plaque too ! I was amazed by how much bad faith (not like in "wrong faith", but like the way to deny or ignore stuff) the japanese displayed when talking about WW2. I read something in a french newspaper about a kind of revival of the "Great Japan" ideology in some mangas where "gaijin" are not just foreigners anymore, but really "low life". For those who know the Manga/Anime "Zipang", those make it look like it's really accurate (even if it doesn't neither help historical truth by avoiding/ignoring/denying key questions of that period, but it's not really it's goal too... And it's a good fiction though)
> 
> edit : WTF ? My reply to Razgriez is ABOVE his post !!???



thats one thing that really bugs me about the Japanese, they think they are vastly batter than everyone. Throughout history and first hand xp, Japanese arrogance and prejudice is by far the worst.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

Draffut said:


> The deaths from all these combined only grace the amount of death and carnage Japan laid upon mainland Asia.  Things like raping a 10 year old girl for 2 days strait until she died.  Chemical and Biological tests on still living humans.  Freezing them, and amputating limbs while they were still alive.  till all they had left was a torso and head.  Riping the fetus's from women's bellies, and throwing them in the air for Bayonet practice.
> 
> If you think what we did to the Native Americans, or Imperialism, or anything else really, even gets near the atrocities Japan commited, you need to check your facts.
> 
> ...



Now you're talking about the death toll?  You are saying as if since we kill and harm less people, so we're better.  We are good.  And they are bad.  Where do you get that logic?  When you have that kind of thought, I know that you have no respect for human live at all.  To you human live is cheap.  Let get this straight, I am not denying what Japan did in the past is wrong.  I am saying that if we want Japan to apologize then most every country in the world should apologize as well.  It is only fair.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 28, 2006)

Draffut said:


> If you think what we did to the Native Americans, or Imperialism, or anything else really, even gets near the atrocities Japan commited, you need to check your facts.
> 
> But on the same note, we have apologized to the Native American, given them lots of privately owned land, and tax free Casino's.
> 
> Most nations have been set free from their European colonists.  So I dont see the point here either.



Let's talk about Native American.  When we first came to the US, the reason we were able to survive our first Winter here is all thanks to the Indians who greeted us with open arms.  They taught us how to hunt, fishing, and planting.  They helped us when we were most vulnerable.  When we became stronger what did we do?  We killed their people and took their land.  And whenever we celebrated Thanksgiving, did we mention anything of the sort.  All we did is thank God.  But we should thank the Native Americans.  Did we formerly apologize to the Native Americans?

And you said that most Nations have been set free of the Europeans' colonists, my question is do you know why?  Off course you don't.  Let me make it simple so that you can understand.  The reasons the Europeans set the colonies free were after WWI and WWII, they were exhausted and didn't have the means to keep colonies under their controls.  And because of the Cold War, with their/our efforts to keep Communism from spreading we cut deals with the colonies to fight against the Soviet Union.  Don't tell me that they did it for free or voluntarily.  

Side note, we put Saddam Hussein and other dictators in power in the Middle East and sell guns and train them to combat Communism.  Now, they are no longer useful to us we turn against them.  Did we apologize for the current chaos in the Middle East?


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## Razgriez (Dec 29, 2006)

> Side note, we put Saddam Hussein and other dictators in power in the Middle East and sell guns and train them to combat Communism. Now, they are no longer useful to us we turn against them. Did we apologize for the current chaos in the Middle East?


Thats a bad example man. We just removed the guy from power ourselves. Apology or not we got rid of him and now we are trying to make it up for fucking everything up by trying to rebuild everything. Theres a shit ton of contractors over there.

We also took action in giving gobs amount of money to native americans. Really those guys are set for generations, plus they got those nice casinos. I dont know if we have made an "official apology" from just on top of my head but unlike most countries we are taken some sort of action to help out those who we have majorly fucked over.

Hell, we could of not of helped rebuild Japan and just let them stay in ruin. We could of let most of Europe stay the way it was... a complete and total mess but no we spent a ton of money helping rebuilding both fronts of the war. We didnt exactly take any of the countries over and we didnt enforce unreasonable laws on our past enemies. But hey, we are still tyrannical imperalists regardless I guess.

Should of just stayed isolated and let Japan and Europe rebuild their selves.


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## Berserk (Dec 29, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...



I bet you're probably the < .01% minority who thinks like this.

I bet your fellow country men would tar and feather you, and then throw you under a bus, if they could.

You are portraying such a bad image of Japanese people.

I bet most are happy with what's been going on and have no problem that it might go on for a while.

Where are you getting, this pride of yours from?

What have you done that might be useful to your country?

I bet you would cry and shit your self if you had to fight a powerful invading country.

If you say you can, then I want you to prove it.


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## Draffut (Dec 29, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> Now you're talking about the death toll?  You are saying as if since we kill and harm less people, so we're better.  We are good.  And they are bad.  Where do you get that logic?  When you have that kind of thought, I know that you have no respect for human live at all.  To you human live is cheap.  Let get this straight, I am not denying what Japan did in the past is wrong.  I am saying that if we want Japan to apologize then most every country in the world should apologize as well.  It is only fair.



Better?  yes.  Good?  no.  stop puttign words in my mouth, then calling it my "logic".

First off, many different cirsumstances and situations surround those things.  and yes, I agree, many nations should have to apologize to others for some thigns theyhave done in the past.  But many have already apologized, or it is so minute in comparison to the level of atrocities that Japan commited I dont see how it has any real relivance to the situation.  I dont see how you can compare the murder of an estimated 300,000 Civilians, and the rape of upwards of 80,000 in the "Rape of Nanking" alone, alogn with the abominations to humanity like testing chemical and biological weapons on civilian prisoners, to that of minor conflicts and occupations.

You seriously think that this is just as bad as England's colonies in the 1800's?  If so, you have some serious problems.  Also, where the hell do you come across sayign I think Human lives are cheap?  You are the one who seams to belive that freezing civilian captives with their limbs are covered in frostbite, then amputating them limb by limb until they are only a torso and head, at which point they become hand grenade practice is comparible to colonization.



amaterasujutsu said:


> Let's talk about Native American.  When we first came to the US, the reason we were able to survive our first Winter here is all thanks to the Indians who greeted us with open arms.  They taught us how to hunt, fishing, and planting.  They helped us when we were most vulnerable.  When we became stronger what did we do?  We killed their people and took their land.  And whenever we celebrated Thanksgiving, did we mention anything of the sort.  All we did is thank God.  But we should thank the Native Americans.  Did we formerly apologize to the Native Americans?



Acutally, yes we have formerly apologized ot the Native Americans, atleast in the form of currency and given them large resevations of free land, that is completely tax free, for them.  The Native American's went threw alot of shit at the hands of all the colonistic nations.  But it's not like we havn't payed our dues atleast paritally back to them.

Please dont try and throw Thanksgiving in my face.  I know it was when the colonists came to America, stole most of the Indian's farmland, then returned half of it, for a large reserve of their Meats, Poultry, and Fish.  Which we then feasted on.

But do you seriously believe that stealing the Indian's land and food even graces the carnage Japan used in Asia, like the examples I put above (and could think of 100 more)

What has Japan paid to mainland Asia?  Truthfully, nothing.  Why is it such a demand that we request an apology from Japan for killing more people in WWII then America has killed in every war and conflict since we were created.  A-Bombs and Native American's included.  We arn't even requesting money from them, to pay to China or Korea, or the Phillipeans.  Just an apology, and a request that they put atleast an allusion to the full facts of WWII in their text books.



> And you said that most Nations have been set free of the Europeans' colonists, my question is do you know why?  Off course you don't.  Let me make it simple so that you can understand.  The reasons the Europeans set the colonies free were after WWI and WWII, they were exhausted and didn't have the means to keep colonies under their controls.  And because of the Cold War, with their/our efforts to keep Communism from spreading we cut deals with the colonies to fight against the Soviet Union.  Don't tell me that they did it for free or voluntarily.



I know why they were set free.  Trying to pretend I am an idiot to make yourself seam smarter isn't a good tactic.  But a large portian of them were voluntary.  Also, these nations were taken over what.... 300+ years ago?  back when colonation was running rampant world wide.  It wasn't some abnormal atrocity commited in certain regions.  And in most cases, the progress these nations went through under thier colonization progressed these places beyond anything they would have gotten without the european occupancy.  Also, the fact that very few of those colonies have been reoccupied seams liek pretty big evidence that the european nations wised up backed off.  The Nazi and Japanese reigns of Terror were abnormal, disasterous, and atrocities no mater how you look at them.

And not all Colonizations is a "horrible evil thing"  America currently has Puerto Rico as a "Colony" if you will.  But what evil things are we doign to them?  pretty much giving them money and protecting them from places like Haiti.  I know, it's a scary idea, colonization where hte people arn't raped and murdered every day, but it does happen.  alot actually.



> Side note, we put Saddam Hussein and other dictators in power in the Middle East and sell guns and train them to combat Communism.  Now, they are no longer useful to us we turn against them.  Did we apologize for the current chaos in the Middle East?



They turned agaisnt each other, now we are tryign to create some sort of order between the nations, and inside of the natiosn themselves.  And we arn't "turning against them"  they turned agaisnt us, and we fought back.  what type of rediculous idea is that, "Oh no, we attack people who are tying to kill us.  THE HORROR!"

The decision made years ago when we armed them did not have the possible future consequences in mind.  But we are now trying to make up for our mistakes, by capturing leaders like Saddam ourselves.  Man, your ignorance is amazing.

Ever hear the saying "Hindsight is 20/20"?


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 29, 2006)

Draffut said:


> Better?  yes.  Good?  no.  stop puttign words in my mouth, then calling it my "logic".
> 
> First off, many different cirsumstances and situations surround those things.  and yes, I agree, many nations should have to apologize to others for some thigns theyhave done in the past.  But many have already apologized, or it is so minute in comparison to the level of atrocities that Japan commited I dont see how it has any real relivance to the situation.  I dont see how you can compare the murder of an estimated 300,000 Civilians, and the rape of upwards of 80,000 in the "Rape of Nanking" alone, alogn with the abominations to humanity like testing chemical and biological weapons on civilian prisoners, to that of minor conflicts and occupations.
> 
> ...



First of all I am not putting words in your mouths.  That is what you said.  Now you can deny it if you want.  You only point out what Japan did was wrong and ignoring the things we did.  As for the Native Americans, we kill their people and take their land and give some little piece of their land back and allow them to build tax free casino and rid ourselves of what we did.  And feel better about ourselves.  That is not an apology.  

Are you actually saying that other countries should be graceful for Europeans to colonize them?  They came to other countries, take over by force.  Kill their people and exhausted their resources is a good thing.  When you said that because of colonization by the Europeans that is why they are able to advance so much, you are wrong again.  You claim that I am ignorant because I don't know, but What I am trying to say is that you are only know one thing or the outer part of it but not the hidden facts.  

Do you know why (this is before the world wars) Japan was able to advance so much militarily, socially, and economically?  Let me tell you why, because they were able to throw out the Europeans colonizers and was able to advance on their own.  While other countries can't.  They still feel the effect of that today.  Go and talk to the "Third World" countries, that we lable them and see what I mean.

You also said the things like Colonizing other countries back then was a normal thing.  Before the end of World War 2, what Japan and Germany did was also a normal thing.  If you look at it another way, WWII did have something good out of it.  That it ends the era of Imperialism.  That also answer your reasons why they don't colonize again.  Becasue time has change.  Do you think that we can still colonize other countries?  THink of Iraq.  And as I point out before, the world wars and cold war make them change.  They didn't do it voluntarily.  (We are the biggest beneficiary of them all.)  

I don't have the statistics so I am inclined to believe your numbers of civilians casulties and rapes by Japanese, so I am not arguing about that.  But you are only pointing out the bad deeds by Japan and Germany and ignoring the things we did.  And what you do is trying to make we feel better or superior by pointing out those horrific things Japan and Germany did while ignoring what we did.  So that we can stay on moral high-ground and look down at others.

And the Hindsight stuff, is only an excuse by someoone who knows that they are wrong but refuse to accept it....Bush.

You like to talk about History Textbooks, then you know fully well that the higher up you go the more indepts and details the books and the classes started to cover.  You only study the one thing (History of world wars ) and know part of it and use it like you know everything.  I am not saying that you are wrong in some of your posts.  I am saying you don't know enough.

One additional information.  Yes, the era of imperialism is over, but today we have new ways to keep other countries "Third World countries" down.  The fact is we don't want them to advance.  Do you know that?  That is why you need a lot of catching up to do.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

sigh.  First of all, me and a few others (not naming them for now...) have a conspiracy theory that phoenix may not be japanese.  Lots of reasons.

Also, teaching nationalism to any country is bad.  You say your thebest, and you deserve to rule over everyone.  Thats always wrong.  Being proud of your country is one thing, thinking it can, and has done, no wrong is another.

Also, amat, I think we did officaly appologize to the native americans.  And, if I recall, the supreme court actually ruled that they were a ofriegn nation and could not be kicked off their land they were where.  Of course, the president igonred them (I think the only ruling ignored).  However, its not like everyone hated the native americans etc.  And, if your being so moral about this, you do realize indians come from india right?

Also, you make it sound like the americans were as bad as the germans.  Did we murder 6 million jews?  did we shove people into gas chambers? no.  So, please step off of that horse.  Of course we were not perfect, nobody ever said we were.  But, if someone had to win, either the people who wanted peace, or the people who wanted to rule the world, who would you choose?

My God, you are the reason the left wing is getting a bad name.  You see right wing conspiracies everywhere.  There are alot of bad things being done right now, lets do something about the REAL things.  There is no world wide conspiracy to keep third world ocuntries down.  Do we really care about brining them up?  not as much as we should, but were not purposfully putting them down.  And you do realize that colonization of the middle east didn't really start untill after WWI when france and other countries split it up into's its present day coutnries, right?

And we didn't cause the chaos in the middle east.  That was after WWI, when it was split up.  American had nothing to do with that.  That is where alot of the problem can be traced back too.  People from different tribes were forced together, as the boundries had nothing to do with fact, simply were the europeans wanted them.

Dude, on most issues I am the most liberal person I know.  I hate bush, I think ashcroft was the devil.  Try worrying about stuff like the rights the patriot act took away.  Not wacky conspiracy theories.  Tell me this, would you support the nazi's marching, if they wanted to do so in boston?  answer that question, and you will figure out if you are a real liberal.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 29, 2006)

What's funny is that our resident apologist for war crimes figures that Japan advanced because it rejected the west. It's precisely the opposite.

I'd suggest you look up the _IJNS Mikasa_ as a prime example of that.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 29, 2006)

sj2k said:


> sigh.  First of all, me and a few others (not naming them for now...) have a conspiracy theory that phoenix may not be japanese.  Lots of reasons.
> 
> Also, teaching nationalism to any country is bad.  You say your thebest, and you deserve to rule over everyone.  Thats always wrong.  Being proud of your country is one thing, thinking it can, and has done, no wrong is another.
> 
> ...



That is the only excuse to make us feel better about ourselves.  Let do a hypothetical example, if some day aliens come to our country and kick us out and claim this country is theirs and we can just say it is not our country in the first place.  Is this your reason for taking lands from the Native Americans?  

Again, I am not denying what they did is wrong.  I just point the fact that your arguements are only one-sided.  You only making the case for one side and completely ignore the rest.  

Yes, I agree that a lot of the problems in the Middle East can be trace back but to say that we're not a part of the reason is completelty ignoring the fact as well.  

Believe what you want.  It is our freedom to do so.  I just want to point out the facts.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

Actuall, NOS has a point.  Japan was really cool before the west came to them.  Its still cool now, but its also western.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

wait, amat, I never said it was right.  I think it was very wrong.  I simply pointed out other people thought it was wrong as well, even going as far as to order it stopped.  The president ignored the court.  How is that saying it is right!?!?!?  are you even reading what I say?


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

sj2k said:


> Actuall, NOS has a point.  Japan was really cool before the west came to them.  Its still cool now, but its also western.



They would still be wielding swords, and riding horses if it wasn't for the west.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 29, 2006)

sj2k said:


> Actuall, NOS has a point.  Japan was really cool before the west came to them.  Its still cool now, but its also western.



I said what? Japan was a backwards, xenophobic, fueding state before the US forced it open. Hardly any defination of "cool" unless you're from Somalia.


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

sj2k said:


> Actuall, NOS has a point.  Japan was really cool before the west came to them.  Its still cool now, but its also western.





That NOS Guy said:


> I said what? Japan was a backwards, xenophobic, fueding state before the US forced it open. Hardly any defination of "cool" unless you're from Somalia.



i think sj2k misunderstood. Japan is kool now b/c of the west.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

No, I actually think japan of the samurai era was cool.  They had problems, but I think alot of them they would have resolved, as we did, without western influence.  Technologically I also think they could have advanced.  If you look at the time of the samurai and the rest of the world at the time it took place, it was not bad.  Of course if you look at it compared to today it would look backwards.

And by western influence I do not mean after WWII.  I am speaking of christianity and the missionaries and traders who brought it.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

and no, japan is not cool because of the west.  The west introduced some good ideas, but not ideas that japan would not have come up with on its own.  We don't know.  After WWII they changed, and became more western, however they were already western before that.  Also, germany was part of the west and a dictatorship.

No, the east has a beutiful culture, and has many wonderful impacts on us.  While they are not all things I could do, mostly because of the culture I grew up in, it is still things I can respect.  Honor. Sacrifice. Courage. Loyalty.  These are not western or eastern traits, yet they are traits that the samurai had.

If you guys can see nothing good about japan besides what the west has brought, you are missing a wonderful piece of culture.


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

^hm...i don't entirely agree, I don't think Japan would have technologically advanced without the west...they don't even have the natural resources. I'm pretty sure they'd still be like how we found them if it weren't for the west.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

First of all, assuming they had never seen the west, we have no idea what they would have been like.

However, obviously they encountered the west.  However, having western culture thrust on them, such as christianity, is very different from meeting and talking with the west.

Had america developed alone, and had no contact with europe etc, we probably would not be as far as we are now either.  Humans grow on others developments, so of course japan would have been behind us. 

However, I also think you guys are not giving enough respect to japanese culture.  first of all, some of the original cultures were great for their time.  Also, japan today is not just because of the west.  It is some of what they have learned from the west mixed with traditional japanese culture.

Rome of course was not the perfect civilization, yet we can honor its good points.  Why can't we do the same with anceicnt japanese culture?


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

America has always been in contact with Europe, it was Europeans that traveled to America that initially created it in the first place, so i don't think that is quite a good example. 
I didnt say anything bout their culture i just don't think they would have technologically advanced because they simply don't have the resources.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, if the Tokugawa shoganite is any example, a lot of techonological development (specfically weapons) was quashed since it threatened the status quo. 

To say Japan had largely stagnated by the time the west forced them open isn't that far from the truth.


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 29, 2006)

That NOS Guy said:


> Well, if the Tokugawa shoganite is any example, a lot of techonological development (specfically weapons) was quashed since it threatened the status quo.
> 
> To say Japan had largely stagnated by the time the west forced them open isn't that far from the truth.



Again, you show that you know very little.  Did you get this information from WIKIPEDIA?  Yes, the West forced Japan to open its borders.  But unlike other colonies, the West didn't have a chance to put a firm grip onto Japan.  Before they were able to do that, Japan was able to adapt many of the West technologies into their cultures and push the West out and hence able to develop on their own.


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 29, 2006)

Isn't that precisely what I said a page ago? I think it was.

_What's funny is that our resident apologist for war crimes figures that Japan advanced because it rejected the west. It's precisely the opposite._


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> Again, you show that you know very little.  Did you get this information from WIKIPEDIA?  Yes, the West forced Japan to open its borders.  But unlike other colonies, the West didn't have a chance to put a firm grip onto Japan.  Before they were able to do that, Japan was able to adapt many of the West technologies into their cultures and push the West out and hence able to develop on their own.



but you see they didn't develop on their own, they were introduced to new European technologies; they bought some, and they copied and made their own. They didn't advance by themselves.


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

we don't know how they would have advanced without us, so we can't really make a judgement


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## Darklyre (Dec 29, 2006)

If the West hadn't forced Japan open, then there are really only a few possible paths that it could have followed:

A: Technological stagnation. No matter how creative your people are, there's only so much they can do on their own. Without an influx of foreign ideas you're bound to be held back.

B: Economic stagnation: Japan has a severe lack of natural resources and livable land. At some point in time it would have had to either open up itself (and be subjected to even worse tech disparities) or invade another country.

Also, many agencies and countries have issued formal apologies for different events. The US Bureau of Indian Affairs issued one a while back, and the US government also issued formal apologies plus reparations for the Japanese-Americans that were in internment camps. The Vatican has issued one for inaction during the Holocaust. The Germans have issued apologies for WWII. Even the French have put Vichy collaborators on trial.

The Japanese? They have denied all claims made by sex slaves in occupied areas. They gloss over Nanking. They claim that the war in the Pacific was started by US embargoes. Their prime minister annually visits a shrine dedicated to soldiers, whom among those listed are multiple war criminals. While many countries may try to hide part of their faults, they at least make mention of it. US textbooks pound the Trail of Tears into all high school students. All German textbooks have chapters on the Holocaust. Japan? I'd be surprised if they even knew how to spell "Nanking" outside of a geography book.


----------



## Razgriez (Dec 29, 2006)

> First of all I am not putting words in your mouths. That is what you said. Now you can deny it if you want. You only point out what Japan did was wrong and ignoring the things we did. As for the Native Americans, we kill their people and take their land and give some little piece of their land back and allow them to build tax free casino and rid ourselves of what we did. And feel better about ourselves. That is not an apology.


So physical action is not as good as a verbal action?


----------



## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

Dark, as I said, had japan and the west interacted in a different way I think it would have been better.

Also, as I said, actually might be in the PM one.  Either way, japan is going down the wrong road with this PM, they may be entering a new age, but the way its looking so far, its not a good one.


----------



## evo Force (Dec 29, 2006)

Fenristhewlf said:


> . And I'm a coward.



Gahahaah...best thing i've read in this whole tread. You other peeps should take this guys example and just admit your all cowards!

Power to the Japaneese. US's is just a pain. i don't really like japs tho.!


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

^you're very contradictory


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## amaterasujutsu (Dec 29, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> but you see they didn't develop on their own, they were introduced to new European technologies; they bought some, and they copied and made their own. They didn't advance by themselves.



 This will be my final post for this thread.  Your ignorant amuse me.  You can believe what you want.  I had lay out the facts.  Maybe one day when you study more, understand better about the world history/politics (If you decided you want to know more) then you will find out....


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## s0id3 (Dec 29, 2006)

amaterasujutsu said:


> This will be my final post for this thread.  Your ignorant amuse me.  You can believe what you want.  I had lay out the facts.  Maybe one day when you study more, understand better about the world history/politics (If you decided you want to know more) then you will find out....



So your saying i don't know history, or that the history i learned is wrong and that you're right?


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## sj2k (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, I think you guys are wrong.  However, I am also not arragont and so sure I'm right I'm exactly like the people I say are wrong in theory.


----------



## Razgriez (Dec 30, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> So your saying i don't know history, or that the history i learned is wrong and that you're right?



Im sure he thinks its the first one.


----------



## Draffut (Dec 30, 2006)

The fnniest thing about this whole debate is, we jsut want Japan to agologize for what it has done, to prove it realizes the atrocities it actually commited, and to try and give the rest of the world some reassurance they wont attempt it again if we allow them to rearm (The threads subject)

But then Amaterasu here trys to say "Well, why dont the europeans apologize to the colonies"  Well, because Europe isn't tryign to recolonize, nor would thye want to.  And American isn't tryign to take back over the Native Americans land, nor would we want to.  I think that pretty simply sums up why Japan should need to, if they want to rearm themselves, and how these arguements Amaterasu are throwing out have no real relivance to the thread topic.

But I guess derailing the other people to completely different topics that have no connection is a good defensive tactic, if you have no real reason to dispute the main arguement in the first place.


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## JayG (Dec 31, 2006)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines. But that won't change the fact that most of the Japanese will never forget what the american did to their country and girls because Chinese, Korean and Philippines are not american. On other words Japanese may forgive Chinese, Korean or Philippines if the one who nuke Japan are Chinese, Korean or Philippines since Japanese have did terrible things to China, Korea and Philippine, but I don't think Chinese, Korean or Philippines are the same as u.s.a who will lose its humanity because of afraid of death by losing in war.
> 
> There are also several american here who said Japan and america are a close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi anymore. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.
> 
> ...



So if the US handed the Philippines the nuke, and had THEM nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that would be ok?!?!

The Philippines and the other Asian countries did not have the power to make Japan stop all the horrible things they were doing to them. U.S. stepped in and put a stop to it.

That's like having some bully (Japan) beat up on some weak kid (Philippines, S.Korea, etc), and then an even bigger kid (U.S) comes in to defend the weak and stop the bully and the bully says, "stay out of this, you have no right to fight me because I'm beating up on this weak kid".

You my friend, are the PERFECT example on why Japan should NOT get nukes. It's obvious that your new PM had already brainwashed you, and probably others in your country as well.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Dec 31, 2006)

s0id3 said:


> but you see they didn't develop on their own, they were introduced to new European technologies; they bought some, and they copied and made their own. They didn't advance by themselves.



But currently they advance by themselves. We are late.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 31, 2006)

JayG said:


> So if the US handed the Philippines the nuke, and had THEM nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that would be ok?!?!
> 
> The Philippines and the other Asian countries did not have the power to make Japan stop all the horrible things they were doing to them. U.S. stepped in and put a stop to it.
> 
> ...



Amen to that. I sincerely hope that Phoenix Knight here is only a very slim and uninfluential minority in Japan, because if he isn't then China, Korea, and the rest of East Asia are going to be screwed over if Japan gets an offensive military. However, considering how Shinzo Abe was popularly elected I get the feeling that there are lot more Phoenix Knights around in Japan, and that they are much more influential.


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## Brandt (Dec 31, 2006)

hcheng02 said:


> Amen to that. I sincerely hope that Phoenix Knight here is only a very slim and uninfluential minority in Japan, because if he isn't then China, Korea, and the rest of East Asia are going to be screwed over if Japan gets an offensive military. However, considering how Shinzo Abe was popularly elected I get the feeling that there are lot more Phoenix Knights around in Japan, and that they are much more influential.



Popularity is exactly that: popularity. It's like a fad. It'll shine, but as soon as the novelty wears off then the popularity drops.


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## T4R0K (Dec 31, 2006)

Hey, guys !! I think drunkness made me do something stupid yet fun !!

I check PhoenixKnights profile and the link to his website !! Lookie the disclaimer !!



> Note :We are not accepting or allowing any united american [ u.s.a ] to join ASIA Anime community, to be one of our staff and to buy any Anime including Anime related items such as Cosplay cloth and accessories from our Anime store. As a protest for the suffering many other ASIANS have from the american [ u.s.a ] imperialism and evil deeds.



HAHAHA !!! "SIEG ASIA" Or what ?? I THINK THEY NEED TO HAVE SEX WITH PEOPLE FROM OTHER RACES AND LEARN THAT BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE CAN BE AS SMOOOOOKING HOT AS ASIANS !!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL !!! PLUS THEY HAVE REAL BIGGER BOOBS !!!

SEX ABOLISHES BORDERS AND CREATES LOVE !!! WHOOOOOOHOOOOO !!!

BTW : I didn't find anythnig about him being from Abu Dhabi...


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## That NOS Guy (Dec 31, 2006)

The old war cry of "Asia for the Asians!" comes to mind.


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## s0id3 (Dec 31, 2006)

Le Male said:


> But currently they advance by themselves. We are late.



but the point is that they wouldnt of advanced intially without the west.


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## sj2k (Jan 1, 2007)

T4ok, I think it is safe to say you are drunk out of your mind, lol, but it was funny.  And, while it could be said, um, more eliquently, it still had the right message 

Edit: since blue revealed that little, ah, secret has anyone heard form phoenix?

Edit 2: I checke out the site, and it froze on me before it finished loading.  t4ok, your from france right?  could there be something there that doesn't like me cause the IP is from america?


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## lastmn4ever (Jan 1, 2007)

why does PhoenixKnight hate americans if he speaks english (i think) I have an asian freind and we rip on him all the time for bieng asian and he does the same to us we make fun of eachother for fun! PhoenixKnight just hates us for things that never happend to him


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## T4R0K (Jan 1, 2007)

sj2k said:


> T4ok, I think it is safe to say you are drunk out of your mind, lol, but it was funny.  And, while it could be said, um, more eliquently, it still had the right message



Wow... I half remember writing that... Mom's husband made me drink and mix alcohol and you see the result... He thinks being sober at parties sucks. I've sober up now (and the head DOESN'T hurt. I must be tough)



> I checke out the site, and it froze on me before it finished loading.  t4ok, your from france right?  could there be something there that doesn't like me cause the IP is from america?



The networks were nearly exploding in the night here, so it's not your IP, but the servers in France may have been overflown...


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 1, 2007)

s0id3 said:


> but the point is that they wouldnt of advanced intially without the west.


You know we were advenced because of the arabian culture. We currently use their nombers (0123456789).


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## T4R0K (Jan 1, 2007)

Sj2k, seems like he blocked IPs from France as well lol !! He must really feel threatned we make him an even bigger idiot !!

BTW, I wonder if he just decided to stop posting here (and I still don't know how the information came that he's from Abu Dhabi ? I'm really curious)


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## jdama (Jan 1, 2007)

I don´t know if this came up earlier, but isn´t Abe really conservative and close to the Bush administration, and if so, is this whole new autonomy thing reek of a sham?


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## Brandt (Jan 1, 2007)

jdama said:


> I don´t know if this came up earlier, but isn´t Abe really conservative and close to the Bush administration, and if so, is this whole new autonomy thing reek of a sham?



Abe is a Liberal Democrat though. Of course he does take a strong stance against North Korea, but the same could be said about Koizumi, right? (Not very aware of Japanese politics here)


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## s0id3 (Jan 3, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by hcheng02 View Post
> Amen to that. I sincerely hope that Phoenix Knight here is only a very slim and uninfluential minority in Japan, because if he isn't then China, Korea, and the rest of East Asia are going to be screwed over if Japan gets an offensive military. However, considering how Shinzo Abe was popularly elected I get the feeling that there are lot more Phoenix Knights around in Japan, and that they are much more influential.





> Popularity is exactly that: popularity. It's like a fad. It'll shine, but as soon as the novelty wears off then the popularity drops.


yeah i mean look at George Bush...


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 6, 2007)

s0id3 said:


> you seem to misunderstand, im not referring to 'Anime' im referring to Animation in general...
> 1 : the act of animating : the state of being animate or animated
> 2 : ANIMATED CARTOON
> 3 : the preparation of animated cartoons
> ...


Me, you, anyone else can make artilce on the internet wether it is based on fact or not. What are you gonna do if I show the same article from wiki about Anime that backup my Anime facts? Anime and cartoon indeed in the same category [ Animation category ] just like american car and Japanese car that booth are car. But you know which one holds the true quality.

By the way, what makes you think the american can't make Anime up to this day? they try to make a few times to make Anime but they can't do it without ASIANS such as with Avatar, the american hiring Korean Animator to make Avatar. Did you think someone who copy an invention will make a better result than the real inventor?


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## sj2k (Jan 6, 2007)

> and I still don't know how the information came that he's from Abu Dhabi ? I'm really curious



mods can see the IP address, or somehow a mod did, and the IP is from there.  No way to fake that...

So PK, care to explain?

As for animation, maybe americans don't want to make anime...

I mean, I love anime, its wonderful, but I can also appriciate something like fantasia.  Does anime have anything like that?  it may, I am simply not aware of it.


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## Dionysus (Jan 6, 2007)

sj2k said:


> mods can see the IP address, or somehow a mod did, and the IP is from there.  No way to fake that...


Proxy

.....


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 6, 2007)

American didn't really try to make anime. Us (european) try to do this (Martin Mystery, Tottaly spies, Code Lyoko, Skyland) and for Oban star racer it's was made in France and in Japan.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 6, 2007)

many french moved in Japan in order to create Oban star racer because currently we don't have the money and the technologie to do a very good anime.


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## schism (Jan 6, 2007)

Can't find my post that I just posted here... so here it is:



PHOENIX Knight said:


> By the way, what makes you think the american can't make Anime up to this day? they try to make a few times to make Anime but they can't do it without ASIANS such as with Avatar, the american hiring Korean Animator to make Avatar. Did you think someone who copy an invention will make a better result than the real inventor?



Dude, just shut the hell up already, this argument is horribly stupid, creating anime with stolen techniques is nothing to brag about just because you think that anime is so great. I love anime as well, but I watch far more American movies and series than I do anime, and believe me, my anime viewing habits are FAR more well rounded than 95% of the anime fans here - which brings me to my next point, anime just isn't as popular here, which is why we don't produce it. We can actually afford the budgets required for live action movies with special effects, pushing the boundaries of technology and pioneering new techniques compared to what, some fucking animated drawings from Japan? There's a reason Hollywood is THE place to be for aspiring actors/actresses/talent to hit it big, you hear all the time of how some nobody from England/Australia/random country moved to the US and gained stardom, whens' the last damn time you heard of someone moving to Japan to do the same or create anime? American movies are FAR more popular around the world than anime created with stolen techniques are. You want some shit to brag? Don't brag about anime, brag about something fricken worthy of bragging about, the US landed on the moon, created the first airplane, the assembly line, nuclear energy, the internet, the computer, hell, before us the first computer was some damn 2000 year old chunk of gears that could tell where the moon was. THIS is shit to brag about, and I could go on and on with examples such as these with regards to the US.

I certainly do hope the Japanese remember what the hell happens when you go nuts and try to take over the fricken world, and hope they realize how damn grateful they should be for us saving them from the wrath of the allies in WW2 and building them back up into the third largest economy on the planet today instead of just leveling them, our then mortal enemy.


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## s0id3 (Jan 6, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Me, you, anyone else can make artilce on the internet wether it is based on fact or not. What are you gonna do if I show the same article from wiki about Anime that backup my Anime facts? Anime and cartoon indeed in the same category [ Animation category ]* just like american car and Japanese car that booth are car. But you know which one holds the true quality.*
> 
> By the way, what makes you think the american can't make Anime up to this day? *they try to make a few times to make Anime but they can't do it without ASIANS* such as with Avatar, the american hiring Korean Animator to make Avatar. Did you think someone who copy an invention will make a better result than the real inventor?



You're implying that Japanese ares are of higher quality. When it really depends on the person. Sure Japanese cars maybe be more fuel efficient but western cars are catching up. As for quality of the car and not its fuel economy...I'd take an American or European car any day over a Japanese one..those things are paper try a Saab or Volvo for quality. 

I hope you know Japan hires foreign animators for Naruto as well. And you cant say Americans cant make cartoons without Asian...the west and east have their different styles of animation. Americans are not just white people, we're not a certain ethnic per say b/c Americans come from all different backgrounds you with your logic saying Americans cant make Animations without Asians your implying that Americans are all white when we're not.
And look at Americas 3-d animations, they rock.


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## That NOS Guy (Jan 7, 2007)

s0id3 said:


> ...I'd take an American or European car any day over a Japanese one..those things are paper try a Saab or Volvo for quality.



Seriously, epic truth. 

-NOS
Whose former and current cars are Volvos.


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## Iijyanaika (Jan 7, 2007)

i've been enjoying everyones debates 

i for one am asian, and i'm proud to be asian. don't mistake my pride for racism though, cause i'll be damned, i love italians, arabics, others(girls i've dated  ) 

that being said,phoenixknight, watching you post has annoyed the hell out of me

i think it would be great if japan started building up it's military for the sole purpose of defense from my northern relatives. america has it's hands tied with the middle east, and by some info i've learned from some military people, america isn't going to be touching north korea due to their military if it can be avoided. 

then again, they've done so well, not having a military per se

others have posted it before, but as far as apologies, everyone owes an apology, so meh. anyways, this is all i'm going to offer to this thread, haha, laters


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 7, 2007)

Le Male said:


> American didn't really try to make anime. Us (european) try to do this (Martin Mystery, Tottaly spies, Code Lyoko, Skyland) and for Oban star racer it's was made in France and in Japan.


american try to make Anime such as Avatar, Duel Master, Teen Titans, Power Puff Girls Z and many others. But they can't do it without hiring ASIAN animators. Such as Power Puff Girls Z whos Animator are Japanese.

As for Naruto Animators even there are non Japanese there but they are ASIAN, and that was why my signature said "ASIANS Owns Anime" because the one who can make Anime are ASIAN, not just Japanese but other ASIAN aswell.


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## s0id3 (Jan 7, 2007)

That NOS Guy said:


> Seriously, epic truth.
> 
> -NOS
> Whose former and current cars are Volvos.



my former car was a Saab. Loved that thing.


Iijyanaika said:


> i think it would be great if japan started *building up it's military for the sole purpose of defense from my northern relatives*. america has it's hands tied with the middle east, and by some info i've learned from some military people, america isn't going to be touching north korea due to their military if it can be avoided.


how many times do i have to say this? Japan has a defense force, just not an offensive one.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 7, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> american try to make Anime such as Avatar, Duel Master, Teen Titans, Power Puff Girls Z and many others. But they can't do it without hiring ASIAN animators. Such as Power Puff Girls Z whos Animator are Japanese.
> 
> As for Naruto Animators even there are non Japanese there but they are ASIAN, and that was why my signature said "ASIANS Owns Anime" because the one who can make Anime are ASIAN, not just Japanese but other ASIAN aswell.



I though Avatar and Duel Master were 100% Japanese.And about Power Puff Girls Z i thinks it's not aired in my country.
I thinks american prefer made 3D animation. Most of their animation will be in 3D. In Europe we continue with the 2D but sometime we work whith asian studio because they are less expensive than an European studio.


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## madcow3005 (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok, everyone just stop replying to PK's posts. He/She is an obvious warmongering retard/troll. Oh and BTW PK, stop saying you have Asian pride. All other Asian countries absolutely hate Japan and its denial of the acts it committed in WWII. 



> ...I'd take an American or European car any day over a Japanese one..those things are paper try a Saab or Volvo for quality.



Not true! This one time I was driving my mom's Lexus and rear-ended someone. Their rear bumper was cracked and partially fell off. My car wasn't even scratched.


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## Nisukeita (Jan 7, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Soon Japan will free from the u.s.a chain after over 62 years [ since WW2 end ] because Japanese under PM Shinzo Abe leadership are moving forward. Two of the taboo laws that was made under u.s.a pressure on Japan will soon to break. They are :
> 
> - Not having mlitary force
> - Not teaching the Japanese youth about nationalism
> ...



Who the hell do you think you are?
Quit trying to defend my country because we don't need defending from extremist f*cks like you.....

You obviously have absolutely no idea what goes on in japan and our basing all your conclusions on extremist crap you have heard from other people, and our just talking out your ass just to get a rise out of everyone(which you have successfully done.....)

Even if you are serious then you must be retarded or just plain ignorant...Japan DOES have a military force, and a damn good one, learn the facts before you start spouting out shit....

Grow up kid.....Grow up


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 8, 2007)

> ...I'd take an American or European car any day over a Japanese one..those things are paper try a Saab or Volvo for quality.


Try a BMW or a Mercedes


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## s0id3 (Jan 8, 2007)

Le Male said:


> Try a BMW or a Mercedes



I still take a Saab or Volvo..if you want to survive a crash pick a Saab or Volvo those things are the safest.


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## sj2k (Jan 8, 2007)

First of all, if you want safety, I am going subaru here

anyways



> american try to make Anime such as Avatar, Duel Master, Teen Titans, Power Puff Girls Z and many others. But they can't do it without hiring ASIAN animators. Such as Power Puff Girls Z whos Animator are Japanese.
> 
> As for Naruto Animators even there are non Japanese there but they are ASIAN, and that was why my signature said "ASIANS Owns Anime" because the one who can make Anime are ASIAN, not just Japanese but other ASIAN aswell.



you do realize you tried to say that about french anime in another thread, I prove you wrong, and you haven't ocme back yet...

so why am I supposed to believe you here?


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 9, 2007)

*Japan Defense Ministry Formed*

Thank you soo much for PM Shinzo Abe and other brave Japanese who finally achive it. It was yesterday the Defense ministry are formed.
I will do my part aswell, I will secretely help Japanese youth to gain patriotism and nationalism. I don't need for fame, what I need is pace in my homeland.


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## sj2k (Jan 9, 2007)

> Thank you soo much for PM Shinzo Abe and other brave Japanese who finally achive it. It was yesterday the Defense ministry are formed.
> I will do my part aswell, I will secretely help Japanese youth to gain patriotism and nationalism. I don't need for fame, what I need is pace in my homeland.



But you don't live in japan, you don't even live in asia!


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## Satu (Jan 9, 2007)

s0id3 said:


> I still take a Saab or Volvo..if you want to survive a crash pick a Saab or Volvo those things are the safest.


I love my Saab its an older one but I trust it.
and is it just me or is it kind of racist in here?


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## Brandt (Jan 9, 2007)

Sumi etsu said:


> I love my Saab its an older one but I trust it.
> and is it just me or is it kind of racist in here?



_Kind of?_ Lol!  PK thinks he's in a class of his own. I'll just leave it at that.


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## Payapaya (Jan 9, 2007)

> how many times do I have to say this? Japan has a defense force, just not an offensive one.



Guess you will have to keep saying it until the question is not asked anymore.  

Japan Self-Defense Forces is the name. Got an army (Japan Ground Self-Defense Force), got an air force (Japan Air Self-Defense Force), and got an navy (Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force). Japan has its self covered. Besides it’s not like they don’t have allies either.  

Also on a side note I believe they are the fourth largest spender when it comes to military.  



> I will do my part as well, I will *secretly* help Japanese youth to gain patriotism and nationalism. I don't need for fame, what I need is pace in my homeland.



Hmm... My good friend I question on what your definition on secretly is... If you’re doing it secretly... Wait don't want to say anything else, other wise I might get you started again. 

Anyways no one I stopping you. But please do so in a peaceful and respectable manner. Just don’t start spewing and shouting stuff out... Tends to be rather annoying. Hence the arguments.


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## The Black Knight (Jan 9, 2007)

Nisukeita said:


> Who the hell do you think you are?
> Quit trying to defend my country because we don't need defending from extremist f*cks like you.....
> 
> You obviously have absolutely no idea what goes on in japan and our basing all your conclusions on extremist crap you have heard from other people, and our just talking out your ass just to get a rise out of everyone(which you have successfully done.....)
> ...



Are you Japanese? Didn't know there were any other Japanese on these forums. 

This guy really makes me laugh.



@PK
See another Japanese person besides me disagrees with you on most of your arguments, and do not appreciate extremists like you. 

Japanese-2 ; PK - 0!!!! We obviously do not appreciate what you doing.



But really, we should just ignore him.


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## troublesum-chan (Jan 9, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Thank you soo much for PM Shinzo Abe and other brave Japanese who finally achive it. It was yesterday the Defense ministry are formed.
> I will do my part aswell, I will secretely help Japanese youth to gain patriotism and nationalism. I don't need for fame, *what I need is pace in my homeland*.


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## Nisukeita (Jan 9, 2007)

Sumike-Kaito said:


> Are you Japanese? Didn't know there were any other Japanese on these forums.



yep, although I only lived in Okinawa for about 4 years before my family moved, nevertheless I'm still Japanese, and don't appreciate how this guy is portraying our country, I'm offended to be honest.....




> But really, we should just ignore him.



yeah I know, to be honest I never should have replied in the first place, the more we reply the more fuel we add to the fire.....what this thread needs is a lock, and PK a Ban.....



_BTW Hi everyone I'm new_


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## s0id3 (Jan 10, 2007)

-Doc- said:


> Guess you will have to keep saying it until the question is not asked anymore.
> 
> Japan Self-Defense Forces is the name. Got an army (Japan Ground Self-Defense Force), got an air force (Japan Air Self-Defense Force), and got an navy (Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force). Japan has its self covered. Besides it?s not like they don?t have allies either.
> 
> ...



dont quote me i have to ask my military/rotc friends but i think technically the U.S. Navy is shared/ counts towards Japans Navy. I remember reading that somewhere...but like i said not quite sure so ya..


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 11, 2007)

this telling of the Aristocrats joke

go go Netherlands at nr 17!!!


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## Draffut (Jan 11, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> american try to make Anime such as Avatar, Duel Master, Teen Titans, Power Puff Girls Z and many others. But they can't do it without hiring ASIAN animators. Such as Power Puff Girls Z whos Animator are Japanese.
> 
> As for Naruto Animators even there are non Japanese there but they are ASIAN, and that was why my signature said "ASIANS Owns Anime" because the one who can make Anime are ASIAN, not just Japanese but other ASIAN aswell.



I cant resist but chuckle at this.

The reason weget asian animatorsisn;t becuase they are better at the animation.  They do it because it is cheaper to get asians to do it.  Saves money, and thats what is important to the televison companies that make these shows.

Though I am not sure if you can wrap your brain around that.


----------



## destroy_musick (Jan 11, 2007)

Last i heard on the news there were a good few peace rallies in Japan AGAINST the rise of nationalism out there.  Japan has been under a big American and British influence for a long time (British influence has been around in Japan since "Bill The Samurai" [which ive since found out that they dont teach in Japanese history ?_?, but basically he was a British naval pilot from the 17thcentury who founded upon a Spanish influenced Japan and became a pivotal figure in the modernisation of Japan])

So this bullshit that Europe and America have been bad for Japan is a piece of bullshit.  It was the British Empires and the Dutch Empires pressures in Asia that pushed their Emperor to disband their class systems, thus making the samurai unneeded and even passing laws that they couldn't show blades in public (which if anyone knows ANYTHING about the mentality of samurai, that is HUGE thing)

Japan's own powers are accountable for their own bans and pushes, not Europe and America.  If anything the suppression of Nationalism is a good thing in Japan, though i really doubt when the ban lifts it will make a difference, most of japan has since WW2 been doctored into a pacifist nation


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 11, 2007)

The latest demonstration of anti america in Japan was on November 2006 ago againts the heightedned of american military activity in Okinawa.

- Japanese won't forming Japan defense ministry if Japan have a military force, JSDF nothing more than a bunch of posers. I don't need to list what kind of posings the JSDF doing since this topic replied mostly by those who don't want to lose their evil-grip into Japan and Japanese. PM Shinzo Abe knows what he is doing, me and the other Japanese patriotis and nationalis appreciate what PM Shinzo Abe doing.
- If Japanese have been taught of patriotism, then PM Shinzo Abe won't say anything about he is going to make Japanese youth learn about Patriostim and nationalism. Since there are several liars and dreamers in this topic who does not know the meaning of nationalism and just saying they are Japanese.

By the way, I'm not connected to Japanese goverment and that was why I said I will help "secretely" 
The latest demonstration in ASIA was in Philippine 10 January November 2007 in Philippine. I can't make any new topic now since I'm temporary banned. If any other Philippino or patriotis ASIAN here, can you please make a new topic for it?

You can copy this :

Topic title : Anti american-rapist in Philippine [ ASIA ]

It was 10 January 2007 ago when thousands of Philippino [ ASIAN ] marching on the street in Manila againts the american for the terrible thing the american did to Philippino [ ASIAN ] girls after many Philippino [ ASIAN ] girls racially-raped by the american army who stationed in Philippine.

I can see how the american flag burned down to ash, I wanna know if any member here know about this news.


----------



## Nisukeita (Jan 11, 2007)

....




*
BUAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAH!!!!!!*


----------



## jakuzo (Jan 12, 2007)

This is obviously a very sensitive issue for both sides of the arguement. Both the United States and Japan have done things in the past that weren't very humane or right. However, how did this rumor of a war get started? Japan and the U.S. aren't exactly hostile towards each other and I don't see a war happening. I think both nations have started focusing on the future, rather than things like that in the past.


----------



## s0id3 (Jan 12, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> The latest demonstration of anti america in Japan was on November 2006 ago againts the heightedned of american military activity in Okinawa.
> 
> - Japanese won't forming Japan defense ministry if Japan have a military force, JSDF nothing more than a bunch of posers. I don't need to list what kind of posings the JSDF doing since this topic replied mostly by those who don't want to lose their evil-grip into Japan and Japanese. PM Shinzo Abe knows what he is doing, me and the other Japanese patriotis and nationalis appreciate what PM Shinzo Abe doing.
> - If Japanese have been taught of patriotism, then PM Shinzo Abe won't say anything about he is going to make Japanese youth learn about Patriostim and nationalism. Since there are several liars and dreamers in this topic who does not know the meaning of nationalism and just saying they are Japanese.
> ...


one I am Vietnamese/Filipino - American. I know what you are talking about and first off it was not girl*s* it was a girl don't make lies and say it was more than one. They are angry because the Marine was handed over back to the U.S. for punishment.
Two there is not such thing as 'racially-raped' y the hell do you keep saying that
Three my mom has the Filipino channel and this was on quite a bit. Rape is a terrible thing, but you single out acts done by an individual and say America did it then say we're all like that or that America is evil. Rape happens everywhere whether done by a foreigner or their own countrymen.
If you want to complain about rape so much read up on the Rape of Nanking, or the Comfort Women Japan had during WW2. 
But oh yeah i forgot...Japanese textbooks don't even mention it and many Japanese historians reject,deny and ignore those facts.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 12, 2007)

Since there are many american here who keep interfering on what ASIAN did to ASIAN then I have no choice but to interfere in what american did to american. Let me get some of the fact I know :

- The only president in this world who even rape his own peoples are the american president, still remember Bill Clinton And Monica? a president is a country best or number 1 person. When a president are like that then ofcourse the country cityzens itself are far worse.
- The only president in this world who lied to the whole world are also the american president, still remember G.W Bush who keep lying saying Iraq have world mass destruct weapons even after they invade it? not just the u.s.a president but most of american media and the american themselfs have lied about Iraq for over 10 years.
There are still other fact like the "Water Gate" tragedy done by the u.s.a president or number one person,  but I will mention it when the right time comes.

Note:
You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 12, 2007)

Switch those thousand of US soldiers with Japanese soldiers and im sure there would be rapes by them to. 

the fact you hardly care when one of your own countrymen rapes a girl, but go beserk when an American does, clearly states your the one being racist here. 

Japan was almost as bad as the nazis really. 

And the earlier discussion was right in that the Atomic bombs actually prevented many many deaths. Though the USA's decision probably only looked at their own deaths and not to prevent Japanese life. 

What is it you want a new war? for the "horrors done to you". Well then I guess Australia, Netherlands, Britain can join America as well because of what you've done to our soldiers in the prison camps. 
China, Thailand, Korea can join in too. Dont get me started what wrongs Japan did there..... 

Seriously, Japans attitude of trying to ignore what had happened during the war makes me sick. They got away with it too, which makes me even more disgusted. No Neurenberg trials for them. 

Take an example of how Germany handles their ugly past.


Clinton raped Monica? wow thats a new fact. 
Your racist and equally retarded argument that we cant bring up anything like the rape in Nanking, because that was between Asians, has nothing to do with this whole discussion. 

But Ok, I guess when China nukes Japan out of existance we should not do anything about it because, "They are all Asians". No interfering! 

Or let the Africans sort their own genocides out. Were not helping cause their African and were Europese. 

How the fuck is such a world view gonna help anything???


----------



## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 12, 2007)

Zabuzalives said:


> Switch those thousand of US soldiers with Japanese soldiers and im sure there would be rapes by them to.
> 
> the fact you hardly care when one of your own countrymen rapes a girl, but go beserk when an American does, clearly states your the one being racist here.
> 
> ...


 It seems there are several members here who are dreaming and hoping the Japanese will forgive what the u.s.a did to Japan in 1945 including the Japanese girls who raped racially by the american, by mentioning what the Japanese did in WW2 to Chinese, Korean and Philippiines. But that won't change the fact that most of the Japanese will never forget what the american did to their country and girls because Chinese, Korean and Philippines are not american.

   There are also several american here who said Japan and america are close friend, that is what they said and not what the Japanese said. You will probably get a deferent answer if you ask a Japanese or even the opposite answer if you ask a Japanese patriotis or nasionalis.  It seems those american who said Japan and america are a close friend forgetting that Japan are now under PM Shinzo Abe, it won't be like Japan under ex-PM Koizumi. Japan now moving forward and may PM Shinzo Abe blessed with what the good things he did.

*For anyone who don't like Japanese, if you don't like Japanese then don't use any of what the Japanese made including Anime, Video Games, cars. smart robot or any of the other Japanese products. Losing you or 100 millions of you does not mean anything for the Japanese. Even losing a country like u.s.a as Japan consumer does not mean much for Japanese since Japanese can find other replacement because Japan not only sending their products to 1 country but to over 100 countrys. That is the same if you don't like ASIANS, don't use any of the ASIANS including the Japanese products. But can you find Anime outside Japan [ except from Korea and China who also booth are ASIAN countrys aswell ] or can you find any better video games than the one the Japanese or ASIANS made such as Final Fantasy, Xenosaga, Suikoden, .hack// or other awesome video games the Japanese made ?*


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## Ketchups (Jan 12, 2007)

You give the same answers over and over again, it's getting boring to read.


----------



## Brandt (Jan 12, 2007)

Ketchup said:


> You give the same answers over and over again, it's getting boring to read.



I've deduced that he's been replying in circles for one simple reason: He doesn't know what he's talking about. If he truly was informed on the matter then he wouldn't be taking the same route over and over again, no matter how many times it has been discredited. 

Also another thing. PK said that the JDF are a bunch of "posers". If I was Japanese (Vietnamese-Canadian here) then I would find this highly offensive and insulting. If I was a Japanese citizen, I would be proud of the men and women who defend my country. This is just another example why we shouldn't take anything PK has to say to heart as he truly isn't Japanese.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 12, 2007)

Sigh, if your so gung ho about Nanking etc. "not counting" because its between Asians or whatever the idiotic argument your trying to make... 

Then you still got the way the Japanese treated the allied prisoners of war. 

And "what USA did to Japan", they won a war. war isnt a friendly thing. But I dont really care cause its the Japanese who started that war remember. 

And as been said before, an invasion would have been far bloodier.  

Anyway, i dont know whats your problem or where your inferiority complex comes from. But i hate people who are so hypocritical and see the world so one-sided. 

I mean i can make a list about:What should Europeans know about Asians. too you know. Adding every little thing done to us, even rape cases by individuals here and there. 

What would that bring? Only people hating eachother, yeah thats a great way to live, or bring "Japan foward". 

Ah well, but your just frustrated because of something and are merely taking that out on the USA, by making America the scapegoat of your problems.....


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## T4R0K (Jan 12, 2007)

Brandt said:


> I've deduced that he's been replying in circles for one simple reason: He doesn't know what he's talking about. If he truly was informed on the matter then he wouldn't be taking the same route over and over again, no matter how many times it has been discredited.
> 
> Also another thing. PK said that the JDF are a bunch of "posers". If I was Japanese (Vietnamese-Canadian here) then I would find this highly offensive and insulting. If I was a Japanese citizen, I would be proud of the men and women who defend my country. This is just another example why we shouldn't take anything PK has to say to heart as he truly isn't Japanese.



I thought he only repeats himself (almost said "itself"... lawl) because he propa-bot, like the ones that present the "News" in North Korea : humans brainwashed so much they lost all intellectual capabilities.

Or actually, as many already said... He's just nuts... (and I'm sure PK is a girl. I mean... no one EVER gave me the elements that led to think PK is a girl from Abu Dhabi. If someone can be nice enough to sum it up to me...?)


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## sj2k (Jan 12, 2007)

Note:
You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.
[/QUOTE]

Allright, lets see what you said PK.



> The only president in this world who even rape his own peoples are the american president, still remember Bill Clinton And Monica? a president is a country best or number 1 person. When a president are like that then ofcourse the country cityzens itself are far worse.



clinton never raped anyone... Anyways, what about chinese officials right now who rape women?



> - The only president in this world who lied to the whole world are also the american president, still remember G.W Bush who keep lying saying Iraq have world mass destruct weapons even after they invade it? not just the u.s.a president but most of american media and the american themselfs have lied about Iraq for over 10 years.



What about Kim, he lies all the time.



> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.



Same with humans.  Humans are humans, not asians not europeans not americans not arabs not anything, they are just humans.  What humans do to humans is human buisness.

My god, PK, you are worse than ever.

Also, PK, why don't you stop using american inventions.  You do know that an american discovered electricity right?  lets see you stop using that.

Anyways, on another note, why do asian girls have to be slender to be beautifull, you can be not slender and still beautiful.


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## Nisukeita (Jan 12, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.



And your not Japanese(I doubt your even Asian at all) so GTFO and STFU!!!


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## sj2k (Jan 12, 2007)

^ good point...

you're from the middle east.  Complain about us and iraq, or israel, but shut up about Asia, you're not in asia, and I bet your not asian, in fact you have probably never been to asia!


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## The Black Knight (Jan 12, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.



*HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!*  Try following you're own advice.  What you are talking about are Asian-American issues. You are not Asian. You know that. I know that. NF Forums knows that. You are Arabian. So listen to your advice!

Your advice contradicts what you are doing. Therefore, you are a hypocrite.


But the fact is that we are all humans. Asian is a race. American is a nationality. Race/ethnicity/nationality are not the same things. 2 of them simply being a classification based on human standards and perceptions of patterns which are not always consistent. We a 99% genetically identical. Our ethnicities are simply based on culture and other social behaviours, which the perception of which can vary from person to person. The other one, Nationality, is simply a legal status, of citizenship, and under what countries' rights that you are protected under in exchange for loyalty, tax money, cooperation, etc..




> - The only president in this world who even rape his own peoples are the american president, still remember Bill Clinton And Monica? a president is a country best or number 1 person. When a president are like that then ofcourse the country cityzens itself are far worse.



First of all, for everyone's sake, please LEARN English! You can't spell, your grammar is horrible, your formatting is horrible, and I often cannot understand your sentences.
go to: 


Second, it wasn't rape. Get your facts straight.

Third. Who said the president is the best or number 1 person. Please defend this argument and show me you're reasoning on why this is so.

Fourth. Because 1 person does something you assume all members of the same race and nationality? 0.o

Ok, I will do the same thing.  

(No-one flame me for this, this is not my opinion, but simply an application of PK's logic)
Let's look at some influential people and goverments that I can compare to you. Let's look in the area in which you live. You live on the Arabian peninsula. Look at the actions of influential people around you.  
Terroists, extremists. If you want to say that most people in the area don't like them. What about the backwards goverment of some of the countries in the area, who have religous laws, and do not even try to seperate religion from government.

Iran's recent decision to execute a girl who defended herself from rape. What did she do wrong?

These decisions and actions were done by influential Arabians (those who have authority or power). According to you they are supposed to be the number 1 best person. That means the citizens are worse. You are Arabian too. That means you are worse. You are a backwards, 3rd-world, religous extremist/terrorist.



I bet you disagree with your logic now (when it's counter applied to you).....


Also, if you want to apply your arguments and logic further to yourself. Since you don't like Americans or America then stop using any products invented, innovated, produced, or discovered by America.

Some of these things include Incandescent lightbulbs, Telephone, Computer, TV, INTERNET, Mcdonalds (or any other American franchise). 

I could go on, but I bet that already you do not like it [the list].



*Note:

I'm not arguing anything about the topic of Japan or specifically what Asians are doing and what others are doing. I am attempting to disprove your logic by counter-using it against you.



You also like to take up all the arguments you receive, lump them together, and repeat the same thing as if everyone agrees with everybody else. I don't agree with things that others have said, and I have privately PMed them. You keep repeating the same things. And a majority of your counter-arguments are 99% opinion.

Everyone *>* You


----------



## s0id3 (Jan 12, 2007)

OMFG u've just really really crossed the line! do not insult Bil Clinton, first off that was not rape idiot. secondly that is my favorite president!


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.



Why you include Iraq in you signature, it's not a ASIA country and to complete what you said ASIANS are not arabian.

And why you right asian LIKE THAT ?



s0id3 said:


> OMFG u've just really really crossed the line! do not insult Bil Clinton, first off that was not rape idiot. secondly that is my favorite president!



Yes he was a good president.


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## Amaretti (Jan 12, 2007)

​
This debate is not going anywhere, it's just going round in circles. PK is a troll, or was dropped on the head as a child. Either way, there's no point indulging him. He's not asian. He's not Japanese. He's just a pathetic wanker who wishes he was. Pity him, but don't feed him.


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## That NOS Guy (Jan 12, 2007)

Bill raped Monica? That's certaintly news to me. 

What I've deduced from watching this person post is that it's ok to commit a crime as long as it's against your own ethnic group.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

Sumike-Kaito said:


> * Asian is a race. American is a nationality. *


*

I don't think Asian is a race. It's just a name to people who live in Asia. I don't trust to race. Think that race exist is racist for me

But it's maybe because i'm french and since WW and what  Hitler did in France and Germany, we don't trust to races.*


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## illusion (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree with PK, Monica was raped by Bill Clinton.......racially.

Seriously, wtf does racially raped mean? You keep saying that, isn't a rape a rape? 

You really are a tard and a half, you give asians a bad name.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

Racial sex is allow


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## illusion (Jan 12, 2007)

Le Male said:


> Racial sex is allow



Yeah he obviously thinks being raped by another race is worse, which shows just how racist he really is. It's pretty sad.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

I said that because i'm mix black/white (don't worry not asian)


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 12, 2007)

Amaretti said:


> ​
> This debate is not going anywhere, it's just going round in circles. PK is a troll, or was dropped on the head as a child. Either way, there's no point indulging him. He's not asian. He's not Japanese. He's just a pathetic wanker who wishes he was. Pity him, but don't feed him.



Totally agree. PhoenixKnight has exhibited many trollish habits, and PK's ethnocentric posting is really getting old. Also, why does PK continue to type Asian ASIAN? 

I actually tried counting the dots...I'm such an idiot...


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## pablocco (Jan 12, 2007)

Asmodeus said:


> You're Swiss, right? (resists military joke)...nvm, lol
> 
> Look, I don't care. The thread starter was who I was addressing, not you. And Megaharrison was right, the nuclear blast was _kindness_ compared to what they did to China and other Asian countries during WWII. I mean, more people died, but you die pretty quickly in a nuclear blast. You don't endure months of soul-killing slave labor and brutal torture.
> 
> As I said, I think a Japanese military will help stabilize the region. With another viable military power in the region, North Korea will have to back off. If what you are saying is true and not just baseless ranting, then I think it will be an interesting development.



there's no any good in justifying your acts by the acts of others. thats kids reasoning


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## The Black Knight (Jan 12, 2007)

@le male

I completely agree with you. 
Read the paragraph below. As technically, by the actual definition of a race, the diferences are almost nonexistent. But different race classes exist more or less because people believe them to exist.


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

This better be a fucking joke. Its bloody embarrassing. From capitalising all the letters in Asian to talking about who owns the anime. 


And Abu Dhabi is in Asia. Along with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. They are Asian, I don't have a clue what's going on in America, but over here in the UK, we refer to people from the continent of Asia as Asian. 

Middle-East is just a name to describe a region of the world, generally parts of N.Africa and W.Asia.


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## pablocco (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> This better be a fucking joke. Its bloody embarrassing. From capitalising all the letters in Asian to talking about who owns the anime.
> 
> 
> And Abu Dhabi is in Asia. Along with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. They are Asian, I don't have a clue what's going on in America, but over here in the UK, we refer to people from the continent of Asia as Asian.
> ...



the same in spain..


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> This better be a fucking joke. Its bloody embarrassing. From capitalising all the letters in Asian to talking about who owns the anime.
> 
> 
> And Abu Dhabi is in Asia. Along with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. They are Asian, I don't have a clue what's going on in America, but over here in the UK, we refer to people from the continent of Asia as Asian.
> ...



No for us they are not asian they are arabian.


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## pablocco (Jan 12, 2007)

Le Male said:


> No for us they are not asian they are arabian. We can't say that turkish are asian.



why not, so the siberian russians are asians.


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## Sky is Over (Jan 12, 2007)

shisui2006 said:


> Totally agree. PhoenixKnight has exhibited many trollish habits, and PK's ethnocentric posting is really getting old. Also, why does PK continue to type Asian ASIAN?
> 
> I actually tried counting the dots...I'm such an idiot...



I did, there's thirty-six of them.(damn, now my eyes hurt )


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

pablocco said:


> why not, so the siberian russians are asians.



For me there are a very big culture difference between an Iraqi and a japanese. But it's my opinion.


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Le Male said:
			
		

> For me there are a very big culture difference between an Iraqi and a japanese. But it's my opinion.



As are the cultural differences between the Mongolian and Japanese. 

They're still both are Asian.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> As are the cultural differences between the Mongolian and Japanese.
> 
> They're still both are Asian.



Ah, for me people from middle east are not asian. But maybe i have an different idea of Asian borders.


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Le Male said:
			
		

> Ah, for me people from middle east are not asian.* But maybe i have an different idea of Asian borders.*



They've got maps you know? I'll do you a favour.



Light Green: North America

Dark Green: South America

Orange: Asia

Red: Europe

Yellow: Africa

Purple: Australia/Oceania

Blue: Antarctica


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## Megaharrison (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> They've got maps you know? I'll do you a favour.
> 
> *Big obvious map*
> 
> ...



Ethnicity is not always defined by the technicalities of what continent you are on. I'm sure an Egyptian considers himself Arab before African. Just as a Turk living near the Iraq border considers himself Turkish over Asian.

"Asian" in the modern sense has come to mean Mongolia, the Korea's, China, indo-china, Japan, and the southeast Asian islands really. You can argue about how that isn't technically right and correct, it is not right but ethnic terms don't always make sense. Despite me being Israeli, a nation that is in Asia, I do not consider myself Asian really.

Also, that ASIAN guy obsesses over Japan. Clearly referring to oriental Asian.


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Megaharrison said:


> Ethnicity is not always defined by the technicalities of what continent you are on. I'm sure an Egyptian considers himself Arab before African. Just as a Turk living near the Iraq border considers himself Turkish over Asian.
> 
> "Asian" in the modern sense has come to mean Mongolia, the Korea's, China, indo-china, Japan, and the southeast Asian islands really. You can argue about how that isn't technically right and correct, it is not right but ethnic terms don't always make sense. Despite me being Israeli, a nation that is in Asia, I do not consider myself Asian really.
> 
> Also, the maker of this thread obsesses over Japan. Clearly referring to oriental Asian.



Just because you see it in this _"supposed"_ modern sense backed up with no map, or the majority anime forum members think it (the same majority that thought prime Bruce Lee could beat a prime Mike Tyson), doesn't change a thing. 

The continents are as they are. A person can be Arab and Asian (given that that Arab country is on the Asian continent), the same way a person who's Japanese is Asian, or the same way a French person and Dutch person can be considered European.

Until somebody with the rightful authority, decides to change the borders and add a new continent, Abu Dhabi is in Asia, its natural residents are Asian. They are Arab too, but saying they are not Asian is wrong. 


People have to stop throwing geography in the bin… There's a bloody map for fuck sake! Use it.


*EDIT: I'd like to remind you that the purpose of my post is to inform the majority of you that a person who was born and bred in Abu Dhabi may be of Arab ethnicity, but they are also Asian. To say they are not Asian is wrong. The world map is my source.*


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> Just because you see it in this _"supposed"_ modern sense backed up with no map, or the majority anime forum members think it (the same majority that thought prime Bruce Lee could beat a prime Mike Tyson), doesn't change a thing.
> 
> The continents are as they are. A person can be Arab and Asian (given that that Arab country is on the Asian continent), the same way a person who's Japanese is Asian, or the same way a French person and Dutch person can be considered European.
> 
> ...



In fact i have the same vision of asian people than Megaharrison. *For me* compare a french person and a dutch person is like compare a chinese and a korean person. I trust the map but it's difficult for me to think that israel is an asian country (they play in the UEFA cup) like turkey that want to enter in EU.


----------



## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Le Male said:
			
		

> In fact i have the same vision of asian people than Megaharrison. *For me* compare a french person and a dutch person is like compare a chinese and a korean person.






			
				Jedi Mind Tricks said:
			
		

> *EDIT: I'd like to remind you that the purpose of my post is to inform the majority of you that a person who was born and bred in Abu Dhabi may be of Arab ethnicity, but they are also Asian. To say they are not Asian is wrong. The world map is my source.*







Le Male said:


> I trust the map but *it's difficult for me to think that israel is an asian country (they play in the UEFA cup)* like turkey that want to enter in EU.



Ehh... Seriously, don't bring football into this.

The *Asia* cup.

Group B

Japan
Qatar (Arab's there)
*UAE (That's where Abu Dhabi is)* 
Vietnam


----------



## Megaharrison (Jan 12, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> (the same majority that thought prime Bruce Lee could beat a prime Mike Tyson), doesn't change a thing.



Even IMPLYING that I could possibly believe this is the most insulting thing you've ever said to me. I am shocked and offended.


----------



## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Megaharrison said:
			
		

> Even IMPLYING that I could possibly believe this is the most insulting thing you've ever said to me. I am shock and offended.




Moshi, Moshi, broken record Moshi. I may be taking even more of the occasional shots to the head along with being tortured with assignments at uni but don't think I've forgotten about you.

The music I pimped to you ages ago clearly balances any sort of insult I threw at you. It's much better than that Ja Rule shit you and Israel is going crazy over and you never even gave me your opinion on it.

Until you do, don't talk to me about being offended, love.


----------



## Brandt (Jan 12, 2007)

Something just crossed my mind...

Since PK is saying that Asian girls are _all_ hot, would he be including girls from Russia, Israel, Iran, Iraq, India...? I'd like to hear his response to this.


----------



## Jedi Mind Tricks (Jan 12, 2007)

Brandt said:
			
		

> Something just crossed my mind...
> 
> Since PK is saying that Asian girls are _*all*_ hot, would he be including girls from Russia, Israel, Iran, Iraq, India...? I'd like to hear his response to this.




If he did, he clearly missed this topic.


Chinese teen kills self when blind date turns ugly...


I've seen and heard of some shit in my life, but fucking hell!


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 13, 2007)

Turkey should enter into EU ????


----------



## Nes Mikel (Jan 13, 2007)

I know that this won't make a difference whatsoever, but...

As a Japanese person, I apologize for all the atrocities my country has committed in the past. I would name them, but the list is way too long.

Ironically, I owe my life to the nuke. My grandfather was a pilot in the Japanese Air Force, and was scheduled to go on a kamikaze run. The day he was scheduled to take off, the Emperor came on the radio and announced Japan’s declaration of surrender due to recent nuclear bomb droppings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So his kamikaze run was canceled, and then he later got a job working in a small factory, got married, and the rest, well, as they say, is history. He was a nice guy. It really was a pity I didn't get to hear more of his stories during the war before he passed away a few years back. He never really wanted to talk about the war at all except for this story.

As for the whole premises of this thread, in that Japan's getting the army, I am rather indifferent on the issue. The only visible difference, to me, is that America will be pulling his troops and Japan will look vulnerable. I think they'll build up their military force relatively quickly though - if I recall correctly I think the money they spend on their SDF is 2nd in the entire world (although China I think may have surpassed that number since I think what I remember is old data). But I have confidence in my country that they will not wage war anymore. Aside from the fact that we are still disputing borders with Russia over some unimportant Northern Island we really don't have a reason to go to war with anyone else. I think, anyway. I could be wrong or just simply ignorant of the fact. The problem, how I see it, is that as long as Japan as a whole does not apologize, there are plenty of others countries near Japan with plenty of reasons of wanting to go to war with us. 

I'm afraid of what the future holds. And for Japan, I'm afraid it's not looking good.


----------



## Tatsuki (Jan 13, 2007)

theres so much randomness here what is the main topic? o.o

"Get rid of Camp Foster in my hometown!" is what i have heard in the streets today

I agree Nes..


----------



## sj2k (Jan 13, 2007)

> Turkey should enter into EU ????



dude, where have you been?  Turkey is entering the EU, although actually the only country opposing it is france, so maybe thats why you haven't heard of it.  However, its going to happen.


----------



## Chi (Jan 14, 2007)

> *For anyone who don't like Japanese, if you don't like Japanese then don't use any of what the Japanese made including Anime, Video Games, cars.*


If you hate Americans stop posting on the American board.
Using microsoft OS (I assume you'r using windows).
Stop using your PC (assuming it has american parts).
And stop using teh internetz, since, I believe, it was born in America.



> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own unless they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian. If you are interfering on other familys or peoples business or problem, you have shown how arrogant and have no respect to others.


 
So if a man abuses his wife and kids NO ONE has rights to interfere, because it's, like, their family issues?
LOL

You just put all Asians together, which is wrong.
You also put yourself with the rest of the Asians, which is wrong.
Go tell to the victims of Japan's immoral acts, that americans had no rights to save them. They'll just spit in your face. Your beloved fellow asians will spit in your face..

It's like this. If I see a man beating his child to the death I'll sure interfere. And I don't care if you of me as an arrogant person..

Well.. I guess you'r just one of those people, who will just walk away, without even calling for help, when you bump on a gang raping some girl..
I mean, it's none of your business, right?


----------



## Nemesis (Jan 14, 2007)

sj2k said:


> dude, where have you been?  Turkey is entering the EU, although actually the only country opposing it is france, so maybe thats why you haven't heard of it.  However, its going to happen.



I'm not sure it will.  From what i seen Cyprus issue is going super slow and the Armenian genocide issues is going absolutely no where.  Although they have till 2015 to sort it all out i can't see them budging on it.

Also Turkeys insitance on many internationally illegal Causus Beli laws agains Greece and its rights in the agean (12nm limits and oil in the agean that is within limits of mainland and islands that Greece wants to get at but don't want any war) and Turkeys daily infringement of airspace.

The country really needs to sort it out before they will be allowed in the EU.  Plus Majorities of some nations don't want turkey in


----------



## sj2k (Jan 14, 2007)

the only major country I have heard complaining is france.  Although I do admit the armenian genocide thing pisses me off, and I would actually like to see turkey pushed into recognizing that.  I mean, germany recognized the holocaust, not that they really had a choice, but they still did it.  And people still like germany.

But I think its just too much of an oppurtunity, turkey could bring in some seriouse money


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 14, 2007)

For me it's not a problem if Tutkey enter in the EU but it's an ASIAN country.


----------



## Nemesis (Jan 15, 2007)

Well technically so is cyprus as well so i guess from now the Asia argument is null and void.  Although i guess it might be the only way in future though to stop the greek cypriots to retry to union with greece i guess. (BTW i'm half greek so the whole thing may have bias towards greece)

But the Issue of Airspace Violation, not allowing Greece its rights with air, sea space and the Genocides (not just arminian but Greek pontics and assyrians as well) before they should be allowed to enter.


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 16, 2007)

"But I think its just too much of an oppurtunity, turkey could bring in some seriouse money"

Well for me as long as they still ignore their genocide on the Armenians and refuse to budge in the cyprus case screw them. 

And its not just France, there are many people who arent that happy to see Turkey joining for several reasons

Alot of countries are joining lately and many feel rushed, feel they have no say on the matter at all. 
Migration. Loss of jobs. 
The fact that a muslim Middle East state joins the "European" union.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 16, 2007)

Turk people think only France are againist them and they made video about a genocide made by french on algerien people (you can found the video on youtube). The difference is thaht France recogneize their bullshit in Algeria (i don't think it was a Genocide)


----------



## sj2k (Jan 16, 2007)

Zabuza, did I say it was a good reason?  No, but money talks alot louder than morals some times.

Anywyas, what is wrong with a muslim country in the EU?

Map Of Europe



anyways, that is a political map of europe, the countries that are politcally considered part of europe.  Turkey is on there...


----------



## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 18, 2007)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:


> Just because you see it in this _"supposed"_ modern sense backed up with no map, or the majority anime forum members think it (the same majority that thought prime Bruce Lee could beat a prime Mike Tyson), doesn't change a thing.
> 
> The continents are as they are. A person can be Arab and Asian (given that that Arab country is on the Asian continent), the same way a person who's Japanese is Asian, or the same way a French person and Dutch person can be considered European.
> 
> ...


The reason why don't I reply to over 94% members here who try to get my attention are because they only dreamers and liars. They mostly talk without using logic and fact but they are using their emotions. Just how you have proove Abu Dhabi as an ASIAN country to many dreamers and liars in here with fact.

Here another example of a dreamer and liar in this forum :


			
				Brandt said:
			
		

> Something just crossed my mind...
> 
> Since PK is saying that Asian girls are _all_ hot, would he be including girls from Russia, Israel, Iran, Iraq, India...? I'd like to hear his response to this.


I never said what he said, if he is a real men he should have shame to do what he currently did right now. And if he really think I ever said it then he should provide the facts rather than just lying like what he did right now.
You will found many other lies they throw about me in here, if you are taken over by it then you are not much better than them.

By the way, I'm not from Abu Dhabi but I think it is useless to say it from the beginning since there are too many dreamers and liars in here who are very-very jealous at ASIANS especially at ASIAN who fulls of pride like me 

Note:
There will be Anti american in Japan sooner or later since I have succeded on getting more support from Nihonjin to help me spreading the "american greeds towards Japan" topics. I know no american won't believe it since I can't show the fact but just enjoy Anime, Video Games [ from Japan ] or any Japanese products as long as you american can before you woke up in your bed crying.


----------



## Ketchups (Jan 18, 2007)

PK, what's your goal. I mean, you give the same answers over and over again. Saying America did this and that without talking about the crimes some Asian countries commited, isn't lying and dreaming? Sure you can be proud of your country, but don't be a biased idiot.

'I never said what he said, if he is a real men he should have shame to do what he currently did right now. And if he really think I ever said it then he should provide the facts rather than just lying like what he did right now.
You will found many other lies they throw about me in here, if you are taken over by it then you are not much better than them."

Look at your sig, it says: Asians Owns Cute Adorable Beautiful Slender Natural Girls. As been proven with facts, part of Russia, Israel, Iran are considered asian countries. So your sig says the girls from those countries are cute, adorable etc. too.


----------



## sj2k (Jan 18, 2007)

> I never said what he said, if he is a real men he should have shame to do what he currently did right now. And if he really think I ever said it then he should provide the facts rather than just lying like what he did right now.



You must mean of course all those girls are cute.  I'm glad we agree on russian and siberain girls as well.  While there are many attractive asian girls out there, from all asian countries, my favorite is still maria sharapova.  Just out of interest, who is your favorite girl?

(Lucy is a knockout as well)


----------



## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 19, 2007)

Ketchup said:


> PK, what's your goal. I mean, you give the same answers over and over again. Saying America did this and that without talking about the crimes some Asian countries commited, isn't lying and dreaming? Sure you can be proud of your country, but don't be a biased idiot.


It seems there are non ASIANS here who want to interfere on what ASIANS did to ASIANS while they are themselfs even can't take good care of their ownselfs. The american as an example have done super-far worse terrible things to american themselfs, I will list some of it in here :

   - Not only racially-raping many ASIAN Girls the american men also rape their own girls [ american girls ] far worse than what ASIAN men did to ASIAN Girls. When american men even rape other peoples girls [ ASIAN Girls ] ofcourse the american themselfs have doing it more worse to their own girls [ american girls ] in the first place.
The american also the only coutnry who have a president who are a rapist, I'm sure you still remember Bill Clinton who rape Monica. When a president or a country best or number 1 person are like that, ofcourse the american themselfs are far worse.
   - In this world, only u.s.a who have law that put a wife or a husband who doing affairs into jail and affairs case are considered as a sexual crime in u.s.a, that is showing in u.s.a there have been an affairs outbreak that makes the american to make a law to halt its outbreak.
   - The u.s.a not a communist country who don't know GOD but there is a law that allowing gay to be able to marry in the u.s.a while in China who ruled by a communist party does not have that law that "opposing GOD" or even no country in ASIA who have it. When gay even can marry in the u.s.a ofcourse there have been a gay outbreak in the u.s.a and maybe the one who make the law probably a gay or atheist aswell because if he/she is not a gay or atheist then he/she should using his logic and religion believes since all religion banning gay marriage or marriage between the same gender.
   - The american also the only country who have a president who lied to all the world, still remember G.W Bush who lied about Iraq? not just G.W Bush, the american media have doing the same lies about Iraq having world mass desruct weapon for over 10 years. The american movies and Animation [ cartoon ] also included that also sprouting lies about Iraq.

There are still many more terrible things the american did to american including the american who genocide the Indian tribe in u.s.a, pedophilia outbreak in u.s.a, etc. But I won't continue to reveal it further since I'm lacks to provide tha fact for it. Maybe someone in here have a time to find the facts other than what I have mentioned above.

Note:
You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own except if they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian.
By interfering on other peoples problem you have shown your ignorance and unrespecting other peoples territory and integrity. Especially when you even doing far worse case to your ownselfs, I'm sure you also don't want other peoples to interfere on what you did to your ownself.



> Look at your sig, it says: Asians Owns Cute Adorable Beautiful Slender Natural Girls. As been proven with facts, part of Russia, Israel, Iran are considered asian countries. So your sig says the girls from those countries are cute, adorable etc. too.


Brandt said *"Since PK is saying that Asian girls are all hot"* but the fact shows that I never said what he said. He is just like the american president [ G.W Bush ] who lies but he don't do it to the whole world, only to the member of this forum who read what he said.

By the way, can you show me what kind of evil deeds 1 ASIAN country did to non ASIANS that are far worse like what the u.s.a did to ASIANS?


----------



## Chi (Jan 19, 2007)

Well.. He just continue being ignorant. 
And still continues to use "american made products" despite all the hate towards Americans..
And still hasn't replyed to my post 

You are just an ignorant troll. You've been proven wrong 1000 times already, but you still keep saying the same thing.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you won't succeed in what you are trying to do.


----------



## schism (Jan 19, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> The american also the only coutnry who have a president who are a rapist,



Bullshit, she gave him a damn blowjob....



PHOENIX Knight said:


> - In this world, only u.s.a who have law that put a wife or a husband who doing affairs into jail and affairs case




That's a lie, there is no such law, and if there is it's not enforced.




PHOENIX Knight said:


> are considered as a sexual crime in u.s.a, that is showing in u.s.a there have been an affairs outbreak that makes the american to make a law to halt its outbreak.



What bullshit are you spouting?




PHOENIX Knight said:


> - The u.s.a not a communist country who don't know GOD but there is a law that allowing gay to be able to marry in the u.s.a while in China who ruled by a communist party does not have that law that "opposing GOD" or even no country in ASIA who have it. When gay even can marry in the u.s.a ofcourse there have been a gay outbreak in the u.s.a and maybe the one who make the law probably a gay or atheist aswell because if he/she is not a gay or atheist then he/she should using his logic and religion believes since all religion banning gay marriage or marriage between the same gender.



What the hell are you talking about?




PHOENIX Knight said:


> - The american also the only country who have a president who lied to all the world, still remember G.W Bush who lied about Iraq? not just G.W Bush, the american media have doing the same lies about Iraq having world mass desruct weapon for over 10 years. The american movies and Animation [ cartoon ] also included that also sprouting lies about Iraq.



HAHAHA, Bush is the only world leader who's ever lied? Give me a break



PHOENIX Knight said:


> There are still many more terrible things the american did to american including the american who genocide the Indian tribe in u.s.a, pedophilia outbreak in u.s.a, etc.




Pedophilia outbreak? what the fuck are you smoking?


PHOENIX Knight said:


> But I won't continue to reveal it further since I'm lacks to provide tha fact for it. Maybe someone in here have a time to find the facts other than what I have mentioned above.




Pretty much all of what you mentioned is bullshit, you don't know anything about America.



PHOENIX Knight said:


> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own except if they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs.



You are wrong, we're all humans. Besides, last I checked we weren't messing with anyone back then until Japan bombed us.




PHOENIX Knight said:


> ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian.
> By interfering on other peoples problem you have shown your ignorance and unrespecting other peoples territory and integrity.



So apparently race matters and not international borders between countries?





PHOENIX Knight said:


> By the way, can you show me what kind of evil deeds 1 ASIAN country did to non ASIANS that are far worse like what the u.s.a did to ASIANS?



... They've been listing them in thread after thread you idiot.


----------



## sj2k (Jan 19, 2007)

PK you are simply spouting down right lies now.  And lies that not even the crazies asians believe.  Bill didn't rape monica, she willingly gave him a BJ.  There is no law against affairs.  world leaders, of every ocuntry, lie all the time.  It happens, it always had, it always will, asia is no exception.

And don't give me this crap on gay marriage.  I guess it shouldn't surprise me you are a religious bigot as well, but I had hoped you wouldn't.

china is a fucking dictatorship, and china and japan HATE each other.  Ask any japanese if they like america or china better, they will like america better, at least in my experience.  The rape of nanking is a huge conflict between the two governments.  That sarted the problems, and it only escelated.

You are getting sad now.  Instead of caliming how great you are, you are claiming how sad america is, and you are using all lies.

You show me something as bad the americans did to the japanese as the japanese did to the chinese with the rape of nanking.  Wait, there isn't anything!


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 19, 2007)

Christ what a completely racist way of looking at the world.

"By the way, can you show me what kind of evil deeds 1 ASIAN country did to non ASIANS that are far worse like what the u.s.a did to ASIANS?"

How about how they treated prisoners of war? 90% dying in some labor camps. nice.  We never did anything to the Japanese before that. 

Guess we should Hate them forever for that? 


"You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own except if they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian.
By interfering on other peoples problem you have shown your ignorance and unrespecting other peoples territory and integrity. Especially when you even doing far worse case to your ownselfs, I'm sure you also don't want other peoples to interfere on what you did to your ownself."

So? who cares cause they are just asians not EUROPEANS. If i want what they have i just take it. Not my fault if they are to WEAK to stop me. Just shows the superiority of the EUROPEANS. I dont care about what happens to them. Only EUROPEANS matter. 

See im beginning to sound like you. Keep posting its working! We should all become racists like you and create a better world!


----------



## sj2k (Jan 19, 2007)

you know, if we don't care about ASIA and I only care about AMERICA, then can we just nuke ASIA?  I mean, we shouldn't worry about them.  clearly as PK says AMERICA sucks.  So lets just nuke them.  In fact, maybe we should do it simply to get back at PK.  PK is butting his/her nose in AMERICAN buisness, instead of staying in ASIA.  only AMERICA matters, you know.  China might challenge us one day, we should launch a surprise attack.  Japan is creating people like PK, lets nuke them, we don't like N. Korea, we can nuke them too.  Russia can stay, they are not ASIAN but WESTERN.  However, the rest of ASIA has to go.  Except not the MIDDLE EAST because the MIDDLE EAST is not part of ASIA.

Well, that is how people would htink it they all thought like you PK.  The world would have destroyed itself long ago.  But thankfully, most people realize that we are all human, not ASIAN or AMERICAN


----------



## Zabuzalives (Jan 19, 2007)

EUROPE want to ally AMERICA, sj2k, with the pre-emptive strike on the rest of the world! we went soft, we just had to push on after we colonised everything!

After that lets fight it out between us, Cause AMERICA is not EUROPE ofcourse! Only EUROPEANS matter cause im EUROPEAN.


----------



## Soulbadguy (Jan 19, 2007)

too me it looks like someone fond a hidden ASIAN ver of roots and is really piss right now.

and why is anyone blaming anyone for some thing that happen in WW2 that like blaming all white people today for slavely its just dumb.


Plus miss PK that was a war a world war it was a very tense time people do thing in war that are not right like rape meaningless killings etc.

and why are you telling us this why shounld we care that you hate the u.s.a


----------



## sj2k (Jan 19, 2007)

Zabuza, of course AMERICA and EUROPE should unite.  AMERICA and EUROPE are of the WEST  while ASIA is not.  Because ASIA is not like us we must destroy ASIA because it is not alike.  And while we are at it why not AFRICA.  Israel can stay, because they are WESTERN  then however the WEST will fall because EUROPE is not AMERICA and only AMERICA matters.  and of course, we can ignore AULSTRALIA because nobody cares about them.  AMERICA is the best, but second is the WEST.


----------



## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 20, 2007)

Here another terrible things the american did :
The american building a prison named Guantanamo prison that put anyone they hate as the prisoners without a fact of quilty. Even today the prison still exist where hundreds victims are jailed and tortured like animal there. The Guantanamo prison is the american tyrany symbolization.
In Abu Ghraib prison the american using dog to violate their perisoners.

I will collect all the facts and make it into one page.


----------



## Kyon (Jan 20, 2007)

PK said:
			
		

> The american building a prison named Guantanamo prison that put anyone they hate as the prisoners without a fact of quilty. Even today the prison still exist where hundreds victims are jailed and tortured like animal there. The Guantanamo prison is the american tyrany symbolization.



Do you have any proof that people are jailed without a trial and are treated like animals?



			
				PK said:
			
		

> - Not only racially-raping many ASIAN Girls the american men also rape their own girls [ american girls ] far worse than what ASIAN men did to ASIAN Girls. When american men even rape other peoples girls [ ASIAN Girls ] ofcourse the american themselfs have doing it more worse to their own girls [ american girls ] in the first place.



You've never heard of the Rape of Nanking have you?

Japan invaded the Nanking area in China and proceeded to rape and murder women and children, and the death tolls are estimated at about 300,000. A number that ASIANS came up with. I'd say that is worse than any rape that goes on in America combined.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> The american also the only coutnry who have a president who are a rapist, I'm sure you still remember Bill Clinton who rape Monica. When a president or a country best or number 1 person are like that, ofcourse the american themselfs are far worse.



Actually, she sucked him off because she wanted to.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> - In this world, only u.s.a who have law that put a wife or a husband who doing affairs into jail and affairs case are considered as a sexual crime in u.s.a, that is showing in u.s.a there have been an affairs outbreak that makes the american to make a law to halt its outbreak.



Are you referring to the dead law that one state has? Cheating is not an offense, and it probably happens more in ASIAN countries.

Y'know, considering they take up such a large part of the population.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> - The u.s.a not a communist country who don't know GOD but there is a law that allowing gay to be able to marry in the u.s.a while in China who ruled by a communist party does not have that law that "opposing GOD" or even no country in ASIA who have it. When gay even can marry in the u.s.a ofcourse there have been a gay outbreak in the u.s.a and maybe the one who make the law probably a gay or atheist aswell because if he/she is not a gay or atheist then he/she should using his logic and religion believes since all religion banning gay marriage or marriage between the same gender.



It's like being bukkaked with stupid. So you believe that gay marriage should not be allowed, and that it is a treatable disease?

You're dumber than I thought.

Using a highly debated text (the bible) is not a basis for an argument. Logic actually dictates that gays should be allowed to marry. If you want reasons why, check out the Gay Marriage topic in the debate section.

Actually, you're probably too dumb to find it, so here.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> - The american also the only country who have a president who lied to all the world, still remember G.W Bush who lied about Iraq? not just G.W Bush, the american media have doing the same lies about Iraq having world mass desruct weapon for over 10 years. The american movies and Animation [ cartoon ] also included that also sprouting lies about Iraq.



...Are you fucking kidding me? Stalin lied to his people and to the world about the affairs in Russia (a predominately ASIAN country by your standards), and basically politics in general is full of liars.

The Americans recognize Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq. He is being criticized for it EVERY SINGLE DAY. Nobody is spreading lies about Iraq, we're all pretty accurate when we say it's a fucking massacre.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> Note:
> You have no rights to interfere what a family did to their own except if they harm you. The same with ASIANS, no one have the rights to interfere on what ASIAN did to ASIAN except ASIAN themselfs. ASIANS are not american, ASIANS not European, ASIANS not Australian.
> By interfering on other peoples problem you have shown your ignorance and unrespecting other peoples territory and integrity. Especially when you even doing far worse case to your ownselfs, I'm sure you also don't want other peoples to interfere on what you did to your ownself.



So you would like us to not interfere and stop providing you with foreign aid and let your continent handle itself? GOOD LUCK.

Shit like the Rape of Nanking will happen all over again, and we won't bail you out if this is the thanks you give us. Korea would be a complete communist country, Japan would own all of ASIA. The only good thing is fucknuts like you would be dead.

Also, strange how you bring that up and yet you want to interfere with what we're doing...?



			
				PK said:
			
		

> By the way, can you show me what kind of evil deeds 1 ASIAN country did to non ASIANS that are far worse like what the u.s.a did to ASIANS?



-The Russians, who can be considered ASIAN, killed a lot of Germans in WWII.

-Japan and it's entire pacific campaign in WWII. Lots of dead Americans, and a hell of a lot of war crimes against other ASIANS.

Really, ASIANS do such a good job of killing each other they don't have any time to come over and fight us.



Also, I am REALLY curious on which country you come from? Can anybody tell me?

And if you're a troll PK (which I really think you are), you are the best troll ever. Racist ASIANS...I've never seen it done before.


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 20, 2007)

Madobe Nite said:


> Do you have any proof that people are jailed without a trial and are treated like animals?


If I can show you the concrete proof, I will ask you a conpensation. How about all your internet accounts including in this forum have my link on it such as your Signature will using a Signature from my link? if I can't show you the concrete proof I will never use internet anymore.
Unlike you or most american, I don't need to lie to achive my goal because I'm an ASIAN who are hardworking type.



> You've never heard of the Rape of Nanking have you?
> 
> Japan invaded the Nanking area in China and proceeded to rape and murder women and children, and the death tolls are estimated at about 300,000. A number that ASIANS came up with. I'd say that is worse than any rape that goes on in America combined.


Any of what the american said are not 100% true including what they said about Nanking massacre. Iraq is a living proof of the american lies.



> Actually, she sucked him off because she wanted to.


Use your logic and facts, Monica won't report Bill Clinton for abusing her if she the one who wanted it and not forced by Bill Clinton. Oral sex are sex and a forced sex until the one who enforce it reaching orgasm called as rape.




> Are you referring to the dead law that one state has? Cheating is not an offense, and it probably happens more in ASIAN countries.
> 
> Y'know, considering they take up such a large part of the population.


The law just made and still active, and there is no country in ASIA who have law that put a wife or husband doing affairs into jail because ASIAN not as worse as american who doing affairs soo much.



> It's like being bukkaked with stupid. So you believe that gay marriage should not be allowed, and that it is a treatable disease?
> 
> You're dumber than I thought.
> 
> ...


The fact that all religion ban gay or the same gender marriage, not just Christian. Allowing gay marriage are the same as opposing GOD except if you don't believe in GOD or if your country are communist who don't know GOD.



> ...Are you fucking kidding me? Stalin lied to his people and to the world about the affairs in Russia (a predominately ASIAN country by your standards), and basically politics in general is full of liars.
> 
> The Americans recognize Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq. He is being criticized for it EVERY SINGLE DAY. Nobody is spreading lies about Iraq, we're all pretty accurate when we say it's a fucking massacre.


What stallin did are not like what Bush did, stallin not doing it to the whole world, and his lies not making a country to turn into Ruin like Iraq.



> So you would like us to not interfere and stop providing you with foreign aid and let your continent handle itself? GOOD LUCK.


So you think too high of your country as to think ASIANS will die or in suffers if the west or america not help them 



> Shit like the Rape of Nanking will happen all over again, and we won't bail you out if this is the thanks you give us. Korea would be a complete communist country, Japan would own all of ASIA. The only good thing is fucknuts like you would be dead.


Yea just keep dreaming that your country are like GOD to other countrys.



> Also, strange how you bring that up and yet you want to interfere with what we're doing...?


I have said the reason why I interfere on what american did to american because there are many american here who doing the same by interfering on what ASIANS did to ASIANS while american themselfs doing super-far worse thing to their ownselfs.

For your other posting, I don't have time to reply it since it will waste my time becase you even can't show me 1 ASIAN country who did more terrible things to non ASIANS than what the american did to ASIANS. You only show me 2 and not 1 ASIAN country. I'm sure you or anyone in here can't find it


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2007)

Madobe Nite said:


> Also, I am REALLY curious on which country you come from? Can anybody tell me?
> 
> And if you're a troll PK (which I really think you are), you are the best troll ever. Racist ASIANS...I've never seen it done before.



He's from the United Arab Emirates. He's just a wannabe Japanese.


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## Kyon (Jan 20, 2007)

Meh. I'm almost 100% sure you're a troll. But I'm bored.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> If I can show you the concrete proof, I will ask you a conpensation. How about all your internet accounts including in this forum have my link on it such as your Signature will using a Signature from my link? if I can't show you the concrete proof I will never use internet anymore.
> Unlike you or most american, I don't need to lie to achive my goal because I'm an ASIAN who are hardworking type.



Eh? I managed to make sense of everything else, but this one gets me.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> Any of what the american said are not 100% true including what they said about Nanking massacre. Iraq is a living proof of the american lies.



Actually, both the Chinese and Japanese governments have reported this atrocity and neither deny that it happened. The Americans had nothing to do with it. This was prior to WWII, when America didn't give a shit (The Great Depression, if you're wondering) about anybody in ASIA.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> Use your logic and facts, Monica won't report Bill Clinton for abusing her if she the one who wanted it and not forced by Bill Clinton. Oral sex are sex and a forced sex until the one who enforce it reaching orgasm called as rape.



It is very hard to force oral sex. Also, I think you just agreed with me. 

Of course Monica won't report him if it was consentual (which is what you said) because it is consentual sex. Bill cheated on his spouse. That is what the whole controversy was about. Not rape.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> The law just made and still active, and there is no country in ASIA who have law that put a wife or husband doing affairs into jail because ASIAN not as worse as american who doing affairs soo much.



Active, but never enforced. Really, I think it's in one of the bible belt states too, which makes the law even dumber. ASIA has much worse laws than imprisonment because you cheated on your spouse.

The 1-child law, for example. You can call that inhuman, from a humanitarian point of view.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> The fact that all religion ban gay or the same gender marriage, not just Christian. Allowing gay marriage are the same as opposing GOD except if you don't believe in GOD or if your country are communist who don't know GOD.



Now we're capatilizing GOD? 

The political standpoint of your country, be it communist or democratic, does not reflect the nation's view on GOD. Besides, gay marriage is actually not opposing GOD because in the Bible he tells you to love everybody. Yeah, it's a big debate, but only between hardcore Christians and intellectuals.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> What stallin did are not like what Bush did, stallin not doing it to the whole world, and his lies not making a country to turn into Ruin like Iraq.



What Stalin did was WORSE, you idiot. He made it look like Hitler wasn't doing his job. He killed millions upon millions of people under his rule. He ruined his own country with his lies, with nobody in the world being any the wiser.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> So you think too high of your country as to think ASIANS will die or in suffers if the west or america not help them



No, you probably don't need Canada. 

However, you think that ASIA should shut off from the rest of the world. Do you know what this means? You're shut off from all of Europe, all of North and South America, all of Austrailia (or is it Oceania now?) and Africa. ASIA is a country that relies heavily on imported goods, and if every country in the world decided to cut off ASIA, they would face an economic disaster. Then you'd be begging for us to save your asses.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> Yea just keep dreaming that your country are like GOD to other countrys.



Canada isn't a godly nation. 

Right now, America IS GOD whether you like it or not. They are the central country in the world and everyone basically has to abide by their whims. They possess the power to end this world, and really there isn't anything we can do about it. They control the UN, they control what goes on in the world.

Everyone knows all of that, of course. Are you jealous of America?



			
				PK said:
			
		

> I have said the reason why I interfere on what american did to american because there are many american here who doing the same by interfering on what ASIANS did to ASIANS while american themselfs doing super-far worse thing to their ownselfs.



No they are not. Not a fucking chance in hell. There are holy wars going on in ASIA, not to mention the Rape of Nanking, North Korea's policies, and you think Americans can measure up to that? No other continent in the world (besides possibly Europe >_>) has inflicted that much damage on itself.



			
				PK said:
			
		

> For your other posting, I don't have time to reply it since it will waste my time becase you even can't show me 1 ASIAN country who did more terrible things to non ASIANS than what the american did to ASIANS. You only show me 2 and not 1 ASIAN country. I'm sure you or anyone in here can't find it



Like I said, ASIA is so busy fucking itself over that it doesn't have time to try and wage war on the world.

Besides, with all the ASIAN threats and terrorists, it isn't long before something happens and you have your evidence.

I'll let somebody else find it and research it. Fact is, it's late over here and I can't remember anything at the top of my head.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 20, 2007)

Wow look like Madobe Nite just got owned, i mean... 

"Use your logic and facts, Monica won't report Bill Clinton for abusing her if she the one who wanted it and not forced by Bill Clinton. Oral sex are sex and a forced sex until the one who enforce it reaching orgasm called as rape." 

That divine argumentation of PK just blew him away....Pwned....


"? No other continent in the world (besides possibly Europe >_>) has inflicted that much damage on itself." 

Lol yeah, thousands of years of fighting so we all could create our tiny little country... Luckily P K, shows us we should think bigger. EUROPEANS! 

P.S. how can you OWN a martial arts? Meh doesnt matter cause we stole it and are beating those WEAK ASIANS on their own field. K-1 ruled by the Dutch dattebayo!


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## sj2k (Jan 20, 2007)

> If I can show you the concrete proof, I will ask you a conpensation. How about all your internet accounts including in this forum have my link on it such as your Signature will using a Signature from my link? if I can't show you the concrete proof I will never use internet anymore.
> Unlike you or most american, I don't need to lie to achive my goal because I'm an ASIAN who are hardworking type.



PK this is a place to debate, you don't get compensation for proving your point...

Anyways, if america had not come into WWII, has ASIA been able to settle its own accords, do you know what would have happened?  The emperor told his people to go to the americans because he knew they could be trusted.  He didn't trust the russians who are in ASIA and thus ASIAN.  So, russia would have taken over japan, then the rest of ASIA.  Yeah, the soviet union would be ruling all of ASIA if you had your way PK.

Anyways, stop talking about GOD, and let me tell you what GOD wants, I am like pat robertson, GOD speaks to me.

and GOD spoke, and said go to your neighbors in the WEST.  Take up arms with them aginst the evil ASIANS, got to EUROPE for it is good.  Go to ISRAEL for it is GODs chosen land and full of GODs chosen people.  Do not go to CANADA for I am GOD and GOD has spoken.  Then show ASIA the wrath of GOD.  Bring fiery judgement upon ASIA and the people of ASIA.  For ASIA has offended GOD, and GOD now does look favorably upon them.  And when ASIA is no more, move your people there.  For GOD gives unto GODs followers great rewards.  Then take all of EUROPE and all other countries and show them the light of GOD and AMERICA.  those who reject GOD and AMERICA will be damned for eternity, just like the ASIANS.  Yet upon some EUROPEAN countries GODS favor may shine.  ZABUZALIVES also hears the voice of GOD, although it is faint.  and so I proclaim that the country from which he comes shall be saved.  And all other countries that swear alliegence to that country, to AMERICA, and to GOD.  they shall become part of GODS land and GODS people.  And all who reject the word of GOD shall be put to the sword and then shall be damned for all eternity.  This is the word of GOD and the word of GOD is law.


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## Zabuzalives (Jan 20, 2007)

I humbly bow before the will of GOD and shall wreak divine punishment on the foul heathens known as the ASIANS. 

only through Holy Slaughter can these non-believers be shown the light!!

Brothers!! In the name of GOD and AMERICA go forth and smite all sinners until there are no more!!

Remember! GODS Favor shines upon us EUROPEANS and AMERICANS, we can not fail! 

Amen....


Thinking like Phoenix Knight sure is fun! Add in a drop of Crusader religious fanaticism and its made of pure win! 

Your really making a difference PK, just keep spreading your hatred!


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## sj2k (Jan 20, 2007)

Crusades, racism, divine wrath, we have it all!


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## Altron (Jan 21, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> What stallin did are not like what Bush did, stallin not doing it to the whole world, and his lies not making a country to turn into Ruin like Iraq.



As already pointed out. Hitler my have killed 6 million jews during the holocaust, however Stalin makes hitler look like a pussy. He killed 30+ million of his own people. Russia was struggling to become an economic superpower. Till World War II. You ever heard of the Great Purge? Gulags? Stalin and Hitler were bad people and they committed crimes that are unforgivable. Oh yeah, every time someone bad mouths Stalin, you know what happens? Most likely they get taken out by the NVKD or KGB. Stalin and the U.S.S.R in general lied to the world. Yeah Bush lied to us about Iraq, and since then America is not popular at the international table, and i dont like him. However you cant compare what Bush did to Stalin's action which are on a whole different level, since the U.S.S.R lied to us during the Cuban missile crisis saying we dont have any missile sites on Cuba yet U-2 photographs proved otherwise. And yes that was a response to our missile instillations in Turkey. However you keep giving the same damn answer, and as stated PROVE YOUR POINT,


*Spoiler*: __ 



*I have said the reason why I interfere on what american did to american because there are many american here who doing the same by interfering on what ASIANS did to ASIANS while american themselfs doing super-far worse thing to their ownselfs*


*

IF YOU CAN tell us specifically what America did to Asians and DEFINE "ASIANS" as in a particular country and actually back up your arguements with facts, then maybe people would take you seriously. I know only two things that are worth noting what America did to "ASIANS", we nuked Japan in order for them to surrender unlike other nations we did not want to sacrifice millions of soldiers if just two powerful bombs can end the war. We are not stupid to just massively invade Japan, though Bush did in Iraq (Which is a whole different debate in itself). The other thing i can think of of American Atrocities is Vietnam. We did make concentrations camps, sprayed Agent Orange and devestated forests, killed civilians from shells and fires. However we still got our asses beat and all the soldiers fighting for the US were disgraced and called baby killers, spat on, and hated  by America. Stop your Anti-American bullshit. SERIOUSLY IF YOU ARE GONNA BASH AMERICA THEN ADDRESS AN ISSUE AND DONT ADDRESS IRAQ SINCE THAT IS ALREADY DEBEATED ON THIS FORUM ,AND AT LEAST HAVE THE BRAINS TO BACK UP YOUR ARGUEMENT AND DONT GIVE US THE SAME DAMN ANSWER EVERYTIME AND STUDY HISTORY BEFORE YOU DEBATE HERE, COME ON SPECIFY WHAT WE DID, PROVE TO US THAT AMERICA IS BAD. UNLESS YOUR ARGUEMENT IS BACKED UP YOUR SIDE OF THE DEBATE IS BULLSHIT AND YOU CLEARLY HAVE MADE YOURSELF AN IDIOT IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE GLOBE*


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## PHOENIX Knight (Jan 21, 2007)

I heard someone in here said ASIANS can't survive without non ASIANS, did he/she know almost 3/4 world OIL are in ASIA? the u.s.a is the biggest OIL cossumer OIL in this planet who consume over 1 billion barrel OIL a year, Iraq destroyed because of the american greed for OIL.

And I think that person can live without Anime, ASIAN Video Games, smart robot, smart cars or any ASIAN products that are not made or can't made by non ASIANS since he won't get any of it outside ASIA.

By the way, I'm using a laptop who made by ASIANS including all its part even the processor, I'm also using an open source operating system, the light bulb in my parents house are made by ASIANS, the elctrivity I'm using produced by a national company in my country or over 90% other products I'm see in my parent house including my PS2, Tv, etc.
There is nothing ASIANS can't made and ASIANS owns over 58% world populations that already more than enought for ASIANS to live by themselfs supported by their advanced technology and natural resource richment


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## Kyon (Jan 21, 2007)

PHOENIX Knight said:


> I heard someone in here said ASIANS can't survive without non ASIANS, did he/she know almost 3/4 world OIL are in ASIA? the u.s.a is the biggest OIL cossumer OIL in this planet who consume over 1 billion barrel OIL a year, Iraq destroyed because of the american greed for OIL.
> 
> And I think that person can live without Anime, ASIAN Video Games, smart robot, smart cars or any ASIAN products that are not made or can't made by non ASIANS since he won't get any of it outside ASIA.
> 
> ...



You're not looking at a vital part of the picture. ASIA is going to start wars with itself because now the world isn't interfering anymore. Goodbye Israel and South Korea, for starters. China and Japan hate each other, and one might try to take the other over so the oil stocks are diminished quickly, and suddenly the countries are tired and decide to try and end each other via giant fucking bombs. ASIA will be forced to choose a side between Japan and China and the entire continent will get plunged into a bloody war.

There's also the matter of agriculture and things like zinc, copper, iron, stuff like that. Last I checked, much of Asia wasn't arable and none of those resources were there. If you can prove me wrong on that point using factual evidence, I'll give this one point to you.

However, also prove a non-ASIAN can't make anime. Come on, I fucking dare you. We can draw the exact same as you, we just have a different focus in the market. We can make the exact same stuff as you.


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## sj2k (Jan 21, 2007)

> I heard someone in here said ASIANS can't survive without non ASIANS, did he/she know almost 3/4 world OIL are in ASIA? the u.s.a is the biggest OIL cossumer OIL in this planet who consume over 1 billion barrel OIL a year, Iraq destroyed because of the american greed for OIL.



This is not true.  Unless you think russia and the middle east are part of asia.  In that case, we have lots of new attrocities that asians did to the rest of the world  LOTS of new ones.  Anyways, if america had to live without foreign oil, it would hurt the economy, but it is doable.

And shut up about iraq, at least there was some sort of reason.  Nanking was simply because the japanese didn't like the chineses.



> And I think that person can live without Anime, ASIAN Video Games, smart robot, smart cars or any ASIAN products that are not made or can't made by non ASIANS since he won't get any of it outside ASIA.



Lets see, we have video game companys in the US.  Anime can be made elsewhere.  Robots?  If you mean techonology then other places do that too, if you literally mean robots, dude, america isn't into robots.  As for cars, its called ford.



> By the way, I'm using a laptop who made by ASIANS including all its part even the processor, I'm also using an open source operating system, the light bulb in my parents house are made by ASIANS, the elctrivity I'm using produced by a national company in my country or over 90% other products I'm see in my parent house including my PS2, Tv, etc.
> There is nothing ASIANS can't made and ASIANS owns over 58% world populations that already more than enought for ASIANS to live by themselfs supported by their advanced technology and natural resource richment



all that is true, but you are using electricity which was discovered by an american.  So lets see you use all that without electricity.  You need the rest of the world.  Anyones economy would collapse with just one country, that it the world we live in now.

My god, PK, you really don't get it do you...


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## Dionysus (Jan 21, 2007)

Actually, there are shit loads of oil outside of Asia.  Lots of it are from non-traditional sources (oil sands and oil shale).  North America has the potential to be oil self-sufficient*--well, once oil shale tech is developed further.  However the margins currently make it favourable to import as much sweet crude as possible.

I suppose PK'd rather believe what he wants.  Makes for better rants.

And I really don't get this "Asians have X amount of oil", blah, blah.  There is no united Asian front.  There are plenty of people in Asia who would gladly steal all their neighbour's oil if they could get away with it.

Why am I replying to this thread? 

*I say that in the mid to long-term sense.  I would hope the oil addiction can be shed in the long term.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 21, 2007)

Look FRANCE, we are isoled like a dictature because we didn't join US in Iraqi war. 
AMERICA is not a GOD. 
A GOD attack by few guys amed like gardeners destoy his World Trade Center.
A GOD unable to stop N.KOREA's Nuke devellpment.

and about ASIAN, they need the rest of the world to survive. China import lot of resource from Africa.
China buy lot of technology from western country because they don't have this technology. Japan import lot of foodstuff from non ASIAN country.
ASIANS are not united, why the japanese PM was in Europe few days ago ? Because we don't want that Europe sell weapon to China.

Let's talk about European. 
Our cars








Our football



Our technology




and more and more


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## sj2k (Jan 22, 2007)

dude, your football sucks.  Well it doesn't suck, but it does compared to american football.  Granted, only americans will agree with me.... but thats because no one else has a pro level league with NFL style football, sigh.

Thats not the point however.

We have a GLOBAL economy.  If you pull out something as big as asia, the rest of the world would hurt.  But it would be nothing compared to the hurt asia would get.  The economy of japan would fall apart if they only shopped to asia.  It would be hit hard if they simply lost america, it would take a decade at least to recover from even that.  Let alone europe.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 22, 2007)

sj2k said:


> dude, your football sucks.  Well it doesn't suck, but it does compared to american football.  Granted, only americans will agree with me.... but thats because no one else has a pro level league with NFL style football, sigh.
> 
> Thats not the point however.
> 
> We have a GLOBAL economy.  If you pull out something as big as asia, the rest of the world would hurt.  But it would be nothing compared to the hurt asia would get.  The economy of japan would fall apart if they only shopped to asia.  It would be hit hard if they simply lost america, it would take a decade at least to recover from even that.  Let alone europe.



Our football sucks ?? It's the niumber one sport in the world.


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## Dionysus (Jan 22, 2007)

The number one sport in the world is mad, passionate sex.

(OMG, are ASIANS #1 in sex?)


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## sj2k (Jan 22, 2007)

> Our football sucks ?? It's the niumber one sport in the world.



no no no.  it just sucks compared to NFL football.

and what is number 2, cricket.  the world cannot be trusted when it comes to sports....


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## crewxp (Jan 22, 2007)

haha... I'll stay out of this.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jan 22, 2007)

sj2k said:


> no no no.  it just sucks compared to NFL football.
> 
> and what is number 2, cricket.  the world cannot be trusted when it comes to sports....



Cricket ?

According to me, the 1st sport is Football (soccer) and the 2rd is Basketball.


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