# Rematch: 'Prime' Ei vs Minato



## Kyu (May 15, 2015)

Word on the street is younger Ei doesn't hold a candle to the 47 year old version of himself.


*Location:* Where they first fought

*Distance:* Same as their initial encounter

*Mindset:* Same

*Knowledge:* Manga

*Conditions:* Ei has two arms/Minato isn't a jinchuriki



Go.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

Minato wins low difficult. 

will probably play with him a little


Well, let's see what we have.

1- Minato was facing both A & B at the same time. Obviously that indicates that he's superior to both of them. 
2- A himself believes that no one would/can surpass Minato, which obviously mean he knows that he's inferior.
3- Minato can out-speed him all the time, so I don't see how A can win if he can't land a hit.
4- Minato has Wind-Element which is > Lightning. 

Not to mention Minato was almost done with him in like 1 second or so. 
But B saved his ass.


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## Kyu (May 15, 2015)

Mind elaborating?


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2015)

Will elaborate later, but personally, I believe Minato wins high-difficulty as he would need to outlast Ei in order to win.


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## Bonly Jr. (May 15, 2015)

Sasuke's Chidori pierced Ay's skin. Albeit it did relative to no damage, but it still bypassed his skin marginally. Chidori and Rasengan have shown to be equals and opposites during part I with Rasengan having more hype surrounding it. Minato's Rasengan is above Naruto's, so it'd also be above Sasuke's chidori, meaning multiple Rasengan would do damage to Ay. Besides, Rasengan deals internal damage which should give Minato a better chance at bypassing Ay's tough skin more so than Chidori.

Also V2 Ay pumps Bijuu level chakras to achieve such speed. Ay is not maintaining that speed throughout an entire fight. Ever notice why Ay only uses V2 in short bursts and doesn't maintain it? He'd get drained. Wouldn't matter if he could as he cannot touch Minato at all shown by their skirmish.

Then you have Ay downright admitting he thought Minato cant be surpassed. Minato is >> Ay.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

1 Rassengan opened a hole in JJ Obito's back.


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## Bonly (May 15, 2015)

Minato has fast enough reactions to react to V2 A so Minato can dodge A with Hiraishin and what not. While Minato on panel hasn't shown much to put down A I'm sure he has quite a few jutsu to get past him and put him down sooner or later, plus portrayal is on Minato's side so yeah


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1 Rassengan opened a hole in JJ Obito's back.



A is alot more durable though.

This is a stalemate, as Minato needs Shiki Fuuin to defeat A.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

- To be honest I am not that convinced about the Juubi's jinchuuriki's durability that much either.  
- Well, Minato never needed it in any of his fights with A & B, and surely enough he does not need it now


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## LostSelf (May 15, 2015)

Wasn't Juudara hit with Yoton Rasenshuriken from godruto and jumped almost unscathed?


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

No, the Kid damaged him severely. 
Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't activated
he was almost cut in half.


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## LostSelf (May 15, 2015)

I wouldn't say almost, considering it cut a huge branch. Also, that's still a huge durability feat considering the attack came from Harogromo's chakra.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1 Rassengan opened a hole in JJ Obito's back.



 Juubi Jin are weak against Senjutsu.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I wouldn't say almost, considering it cut a huge branch. Also, that's still a huge durability feat considering the attack came from Harogromo's chakra.



I said "almost" just in case you would say "no, blah blah blah" and I was not really planning to go with that, so I thought almost would be fair enough. 

- Well, if he's being cut in half, that's not really a durability feat.



NarutoX28 said:


> Juubi Jin are weak against Senjutsu.



Say that to Hashirama's SM attacks which did not do jack shit.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

We've been told who the superior fighter is. Minato beats A.

Somehow.


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## Hand Banana (May 15, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I wouldn't say almost, considering it cut a huge branch. Also, that's still a huge durability feat considering the attack came from Harogromo's chakra.



Cut a huge branch? he cut the entire tree.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I said "almost" just in case you would say "no, blah blah blah" and I was not really planning to go with that, so I thought almost would be fair enough.
> 
> - Well, if he's being cut in half, that's not really a durability feat.
> 
> ...



 Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't activated

 This never applied until a considerable duration after Hashirama used his Gates.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

Not sure if serious.


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## Thunder (May 15, 2015)

_"There is no shinobi that is faster than me."__ "Now that the fourth Hokage is no longer around__."

"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

_This doesn't sound like someone who thinks he's got a shot here. A massive skill gap exists between Minato and _all_ incarnations of A.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not sure if serious.



 So SM Naruto's Rasengan >> SM Hashirama's Gates just cuz right?


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

Thunder said:


> _"There is no shinobi that is faster than me."__ "Now that the fourth Hokage is no longer around__."
> 
> "...There was never a man that could surpass him."
> 
> _This doesn't sound like someone who thinks he's got a shot here. A massive skill gap exists between Minato and _all_ incarnations of A.



That means if Minato was still alive, he would have been the fastest, but he died before reaching his prime. Ei didnt.

There *WAS* never a man tha could surpass him... But he died early.

Ei, at the same time, improved his skills drastically. Young Ei has never displayed tailed beast level chakra, which Raikage Ei can use on daily basis.


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## Sorin (May 16, 2015)

Minato wins. Not sure what's there to debate when we heard, straight  form the horse's mouth, that he thinks Minato can't be surpassed.

The mental gymnastics that are done in this thread. 
Naruto: "You are pretty fast for an old man" Understand what Naruto implies here?


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Minato wins as Kishi the author has already said 
Unbalanced match with a clear winner 
Minato lands Sm rasengan till A drops 
This is exceedingly 1 sided


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

I don't get how rasengan is being ignored here . I mean why would multiple not put down A ?

Considering minato ridiculous speed and tactical advantage .


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## LostSelf (May 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I said "almost" just in case you would say "no, blah blah blah" and I was not really planning to go with that, so I thought almost would be fair enough.
> 
> - Well, if he's being cut in half, that's not really a durability feat.



It is. Naruto's blast cut the entire huge tree. The same blast couldn't bypass Madara's much smaller body and the wound he had didn't look as bad. However, the point is Juudara being much more durable than Ei, unless you think Ei would tank or survive godruto's attack .



NaS said:


> Cut a huge branch? he cut the entire tree.



Indeed. That blast was insane.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Hussain claims that Juubito tanked SM Hashirama's Gates yet suddenly thinks Juubidara lacks any sort of durability whatsoever. Seems legit.


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That means if Minato was still alive, he would have been the fastest, but he died before reaching his prime. Ei didnt.
> 
> There *WAS* never a man tha could surpass him... But he died early.
> 
> Ei, at the same time, improved his skills drastically. Young Ei has never displayed tailed beast level chakra, which Raikage Ei can use on daily basis.



Before Naruto outpaced him, war arc A admits the only reason he's called the fastest man is because Minato is dead, which very strongly implies A _wouldn't_ be the fastest man if Minato were alive. 

And acquiring bijū levels of chakra through training is hardly the norm. It's something you're born with like those who hail from certain clans like the Uzumaki. A's father was also a stamina beast. It's in their genetics.

I'm also not sure why you're assuming A made such _drastic_ improvements between the time A faced Minato and the war arc when his younger incarnation was shown with many of A's staples: Raiton Chakra Mode, Raiton: Shunshin, Raiton: Lariat and Raigyaku Suihei (used against Gyūki in a flashback). 

Clearly A's fighting style was already perfected at that time. A is a one-dimensional character whose focus is strength and speed. Always has been. I won't dispute that A probably learned more taijutsu moves and improved his physical stats, but are small improvements within an _already confined fighting style_ enough to bridge the massive skill gap between Minato (considered to be unsurpassed by everyone he came in contact with in life) and A? No.


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Before Naruto outpaced him, war arc A admits the only reason he's called the fastest man is because Minato is dead, which very strongly implies A _wouldn't_ be the fastest man if Minato were alive.
> 
> And acquiring bijū levels of chakra through training is hardly the norm. It's something you're born with like those who hail from certain clans like the Uzumaki. A's father was also a stamina beast. It's in their genetics.
> 
> ...



Yes, he wouldnt be the fastest man if Minato was alive, because Minato would have improved his skills through those 17 years just as Ei did. But Minato died young before reaching his prime. 

Young Ei has never demonstrated tailed beasts level chakra. Aither he didnt have such a chakra amount at that time, or he didnt have chakra control good enough to produce such speed. Young Ei lacks feats. Even his Raiton armor was never as thick as Raikage Ei's Raiton armor in some instances.

We cant put young Ei and Raikage Ei at the same level because of 17 years gap and young Ei's feats poverty.


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yes, he wouldnt be the fastest man if Minato was alive, because Minato would have improved his skills through those 17 years just as Ei did. But Minato died young before reaching his prime.



Minato's usage of Hiraishin (a _space-time_ jutsu) is already faster than Tobirama's usage of Hiraishin, another man lauded as the fastest of his era. How much faster do you think Minato would've gotten? 

In any case there's no reason to assume A managed to bridge the speed gap between them. 



> Young Ei has never demonstrated tailed beasts level chakra. Aither he didnt have such a chakra amount at that time, or he didnt have chakra control good enough to produce such speed. Young Ei lacks feats. Even his Raiton armor was never as thick as Raikage Ei's Raiton armor in some instances.


That doesn't mean he didn't have it. We didn't see enough from him. What we do know is young A stated his fastest attack wasn't enough to tag Minato. 

The Raiton armor wasn't as thick on young A as it is on older A because older A has a bigger frame. The Raiton armor is just that: _armor_. It surrounds the body.



> We cant put young Ei and Raikage Ei at the same level because of 17 years gap and young Ei's feats poverty.


Like I said, I do think older A gained some skills overtime that he didn't possess before. But the point is _nothing_ implies A grew enough to be able to defeat Minato. No statements, feats, nothing. Everything I've read points to Minato being beyond A overall.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Thank you Thunder please tell them 
A is A if he improved at all 
Kishi the author would have mentioned it 

He mentioned it for the Sanin ,deidara and several other characters . When he doesn't means they haven't kmproved


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## pluuuuffff (May 16, 2015)

I like the fact that StarWanderer is talking about things that were never explained in the manga.

Show me one move from Kira A, that he didn't have when he was fighting Minato. Just one.

Also, Karin said that on v2 cloak, HE HAD BIJUU CHAKRA LEVEL. He already had V2 against Minato.

Anyways, Minato stomps easily. Kishimoto put Minato against Bee and A and showed him owning both.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> I like the fact that StarWanderer is talking about things that were never explained in the manga.
> 
> Show me one move from Kira A, that he didn't have when he was fighting Minato. Just one.
> 
> ...



 Tell me where Minato states Young Ei has Bijuu level chakra. Don't worry, I can wait all day if you need it.


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

It's not outrageous to think A improved after 25 years, considering ninja seem to hit their peak around age 50. But given A hyping Minato, it's unlikely he thought things would change.​


Rocky said:


> We've been told who the superior fighter is. Minato beats A.
> 
> Somehow.



I'd say Minato consistently outperformed A, but that A's durability kept him alive. Think Gated Lee versus Gaara. Minato could dominate him, yet still be unable to keep him down.​


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## Pocalypse (May 16, 2015)

Minato takes this with literal ease. A won't even be able to land a hit on him, A's already admitted inferiority against Minato on multiple occasions and Minato handled himself against A very well when he was young. There hasn't been much of a difference between younger A and normal A, maybe apart from durabilitiy.


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## Eliyua23 (May 16, 2015)

We saw the fight and Ei admitted inferiority what is there to talk about


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'd say Minato consistently outperformed A, but that A's durability kept him alive. Think Gated Lee versus Gaara. Minato could dominate him, yet still be unable to keep him down.​



I could get behind that, though I would think that Minato had_ something _for A that we just never saw.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's not outrageous to think A improved after 25 years, considering ninja seem to hit their peak around age 50. But given A hyping Minato, it's unlikely he thought things would change.​
> 
> 
> I'd say Minato consistently outperformed A, but that A's durability kept him alive. Think Gated Lee versus Gaara. Minato could dominate him, yet still be unable to keep him down.​



 That's actually a fair point.

 However, I do think things would slightly play out differently due to both sides having knowledge on each other's abilities, specifically Ei as he showed the ability to react and possibly perceive where Minato would warp to (even though there were multiple Kunai out on the field) which is impressive considering Minato usually only had one Kunai out on the field at a time during his battles when he was Alive and one of them was arguably against a Kage level opponent (Young Obito).

 But still, you have convinced me and it makes me think Minato might take this mid-difficulty now.


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## Veracity (May 16, 2015)

Why would a ninja hit its peak at 50. They might have more experience, may have developed more Justu, and maybe maximized their chakra control... But physically ? They are easily inferior once they hit 50. That was outright thrown into our faces when 60 year old Hirzuen was stated to have performed pitiful because of his age, and he was deep into his old state.

The only characters you can claim get better as they get older are the Sannin, and that's only because they continue to learn and develop new Justu while using their experience as an advantage. But they still were physically inferior to when they were at their prime; 20's and 30's. Besides Gai and Lee, Ay is the most physical fighter in the manga basically.


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## Eliyua23 (May 16, 2015)

My only problem with the Ei improved theory is that we saw him fight and he showed us nothing new from when we saw him fight against Minato , he developed no long range nin and just seemed to rely on brute force and speed like he did against Minato and we saw him stalemate and almost die against a Sasuke Minato would wipe the floor with , a Sasuke that hadn't even developed  stage 4 Susanoo, and when talking about Minato he was still comparing himself in the present tense or the story he told would've been meaningless.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Minato's usage of Hiraishin (a space-time jutsu) is already faster than Tobirama's usage of Hiraishin



It was stated to be better, not faster.



> How much faster do you think Minato would've gotten?



A lot faster. Maybe he would have been truly the fastest shinobi ever if he reached his prime. 



> In any case there's no reason to assume A managed to bridge the speed gap between them.



There is. Because of Raikage Ei's speed feats and tailed beast chakra level which young Ei has never demonstrated.



> That doesn't mean he didn't have it.



There is no proof he could use that kind of chakra to amp his speed.



> We didn't see enough from him. What we do know is young A stated his fastest attack wasn't enough to tag Minato.



Yes - we didnt see enough from him to put him at the same level with Raikage Ei. And yes - Minato dodged his, *at that time*, fastest punch.



> The Raiton armor wasn't as thick on young A as it is on older A because older A has a bigger frame. The Raiton armor is just that: armor. It surrounds the body.



Not all that much bigger, but ok, with that i agree.



> Like I said, I do think older A gained some skills overtime that he didn't possess before. But the point is nothing implies A grew enough to be able to defeat Minato. No statements, feats, nothing. Everything I've read points to Minato being beyond A overall.



No statements, but lots of feats. Raikage Ei will be a lot harder for Minato to handle.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> My only problem with the Ei improved theory is that we saw him fight and he showed us nothing new from when we saw him fight against Minato ,* he developed no long range nin* and just seemed to rely on brute force and speed like he did against Minato and we saw him stalemate and almost die against a Sasuke Minato would wipe the floor with , a Sasuke that hadn't even developed  stage 4 Susanoo, and when talking about Minato he was still comparing himself in the present tense or the story he told would've been meaningless.



Not as if that matters anyway. Those type of attacks mean nothing against Minato because of
the barrier.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Why would a ninja hit its peak at 50. They might have more experience, may have developed more Justu, and maybe maximized their chakra control... But physically ? They are easily inferior once they hit 50. That was outright thrown into our faces when 60 year old Hirzuen was stated to have performed pitiful because of his age, and he was deep into his old state.



Ei's Shunshin speed depends on his *chakra control*, *chakra level*. It depends on his *chakra*. Young Ei has never demonstrated the chakra level Raikage Ei demonstrated. *Never*, *ever*.  

By the way, Raikage Ei seems to be bigger and stronger then young Ei.



> My only problem with the Ei improved theory is that we saw him fight and he showed us nothing new from when we saw him fight against Minato



Nothing new except tailed beast chakra level and lots of feats.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So SM Naruto's Rasengan >> SM Hashirama's Gates just cuz right?



Yes it is.  
And don't pull "He's Hashirama" crap with me. Because too bad for you, I am not one of the Wood riders.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Ei's Shunshin speed depends on his *chakra control*, *chakra level*. It depends on his *chakra*. Young Ei has never demonstrated the chakra level Raikage Ei demonstrated. *Never*, *ever*.
> 
> By the way, Raikage Ei seems to be bigger and stronger then young Ei.
> 
> ...



Can you prove that shunshin depends solely on chakra and has nothing to do with raw speed ? I don't mean a rushed explanation, I mean a DB statement or panel evidence. 

You seem to think that just because Karin wasn't around 20 years ago, or that any sensor didn't outright say " he has Bjuu - level chakra ", that he didn't have Bjuii level chakra back then. I didn't know Kishi outright explains every single little thing like that to us. 

Being bigger certainly doesn't apply to speed . The most you can say is older Ay packs more of a punch.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

Shunshin=chakra control + quantity 
For those who want to find out where it's said haku fight


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Shunshin=chakra control + quantity
> For those who want to find out where it's said haku fight



If you're making the statement you have to provide the feat. How do I know you are telling the truth or read the statement correctly?

I could be like shunshin is 100% body movement, read the Gaara vs Deidara battle.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

Like boss please just go read the haku fight 
Before replying 
not everyone has the time to be finding panels when we all read the same manga

Or better yet just naruto wiki it. They provide chapter references . Here click and have a good read


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes it is.
> And don't pull "He's Hashirama" crap with me. Because too bad for you, I am not one of the Wood riders.



 Hashirama >> Naruto.


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## Thunder (May 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It was stated to be better, not faster.



You need to examine the entire context of the situation not just what's said. 

Minato appeared on the battlefield before any of the Hokage, Hiruzen praises Minato's speed, and then Tobirama remarks how Minato's "Shunshin" is better than his _right after_ Hiruzen's comment.

We've got a feat (Minato appearing first) and statements praising Minato's speed. What the author is conveying with all this information is clear.



> A lot faster. Maybe he would have been truly the fastest shinobi ever if he reached his prime.


I don't see any reason to assume Minato would get so much faster when he's already outpacing other Shunshin and even _space-time_ users. If anything Minato's training focus would be mastering Sage Mode and combining his element with Rasengan. That's what Minato was trying to do before he died.



> There is. Because of Raikage Ei's speed feats and tailed beast chakra level which young Ei has never demonstrated.


I'll rephrase that: nothing implies _chakra_ was the main thing that kept A from approaching Minato's tier. Minato is just better than A overall. This is a man who mastered advanced space-time jutsu, Uzumaki Fūin, created a human version of the Bijūdama in Rasengan, dabbled in the Sage Arts, and mastered Kyūbi Chakra Mode in no time at all. What has A done that's remotely on par with these incredible feats of _genius_ and _skill_? 



> There is no proof he could use that kind of chakra to amp his speed.


There's no proof A with the level of speed you're describing here would pose any threat to Minato. 



> Yes - we didnt see enough from him to put him at the same level with Raikage Ei. And yes - Minato dodged his, *at that time*, fastest punch.


Not only that, Minato had time to _drop a kunai_ before teleporting over to another one.



> No statements, but lots of feats. Raikage Ei will be a lot harder for Minato to handle.


Yet A's style is the same at its core: one-dimensional. So I remain unconvinced on that.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Can you prove that shunshin depends solely on chakra and has nothing to do with raw speed ? I don't mean a rushed explanation, I mean a DB statement or panel evidence.
> 
> You seem to think that just because Karin wasn't around 20 years ago, or that any sensor didn't outright say " he has Bjuu - level chakra ", that he didn't have Bjuii level chakra back then. I didn't know Kishi outright explains every single little thing like that to us.
> 
> Being bigger certainly doesn't apply to speed . The most you can say is older Ay packs more of a punch.



 Base Ei has extremely high raw speed. 

 He was fast enough to strangle White Zetsu in a mere instant and that guy believed he could simply waltz into a room full of Kages unharmed, so it's safe to say his raw speed is above what you would expect from a Kage level ninja.

 There's also the fact that Base Bee is extremely fast and has shown greater speed than Taka Sasuke ever had. Even C comments on Base Ei's raw speed and reflexes, so clearly, his raw speed is pretty damn high.

 Ei getting bigger and more masculine simply means he's trained and improved himself physically overall. Are you really going to claim that that only implies that his strength increased for a man who * specializes * in speed?


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

A persons physical attributes got nothing to do with shunshin 

Notice only people with high levels of chakra and control are super fast in naruto 

Gai and lee are the exception they use physical speed but they can do so because they have powered up their bodies dozens of times 

Other ninja vitalize their body with chakra . It's a ninjutsu 

All ninjutsu are bound by chakra quantity and control


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Base Ei has extremely high raw speed.
> 
> He was fast enough to strangle White Zetsu in a mere instant and that guy believed he could simply waltz into a room full of Kages unharmed, so it's safe to say his raw speed is above what you would expect from a Kage level ninja.
> 
> ...



What was the point of that post ? I never said base Ay wasn't quick so..?

Do you know that getting bigger in mass doesn't mean you can run quicker ? Ay may have developed more Taijustu techniques, and physically enhanced the power behind his blows, but nothing is said about his max power flicker getting faster. The opposite is actually implied considering the context of the Minato vs Ay fight being directly before Naruto dodging his V2 flicker.


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## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

>A got faster



			
				LB said:
			
		

> The opposite is actually implied considering the context of the Minato vs Ay fight being directly before Naruto dodging his V2 flicker.



^

It isn't hard.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What was the point of that post ? I never said base Ay wasn't quick so..?
> 
> Do you know that getting bigger in mass doesn't mean you can run quicker ? Ay may have developed more Taijustu techniques, and physically enhanced the power behind his blows, but nothing is said about his max power flicker getting faster. * The opposite is actually implied considering the context of the Minato vs Ay fight being directly before Naruto dodging his V2 flicker. *



 Same could be said for Ei's statements about Minato being unsurpassed considering Ei emphasized how Minato could not be surpassed despite their many clashes. It'd make sense for Ei to have improved to emphasize Minato's skill as Minato managed to keep up with Ei's improvements and despite Ei's efforts, the results remained the same.

 Being bigger in mass doesn't necessarily mean you'd slow down, especially for short bursts of speed. If anything, mass could certainly help improve his short bursts of speed. But seriously, do think Ei would build mass only to slow down? That makes no sense for somebody who * specializes * in speed. There's absolutely no indication that mass would've slowed him down at all. If anything, it's a sign of improvement as it displays how Ei's physical condition improved as time progressed.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Same could be said for Ei's statements about Minato being unsurpassed considering Ei emphasized how Minato could not be surpassed despite their many clashes. It'd make sense for Ei to have improved to emphasize Minato's skill as Minato managed to keep up with Ei's improvements and despite Ei's efforts, the results remained the same.
> 
> Being bigger in mass doesn't necessarily mean you'd slow down, especially for short bursts of speed. If anything, mass could certainly help improve his short bursts of speed. But seriously, do think Ei would build mass only to slow down? That makes no sense for somebody who * specializes * in speed. There's absolutely no indication that mass would've slowed him down at all. If anything, it's a sign of improvement as it displays how Ei's physical condition improved as time progressed.



That's not how I see it at all. I don't think Ay planned on ever fighting again and I doubt they fought much as they clearly had to fight to kill. I see it as no matter what tactics Ay used, he never could really touch Minato. I don't think his speed upped much. But based on context it certainly didn't... Narutos feat of dodging Ay was impressive because Minato was only able to dodge him using FTG. Naruto had become the second ninja to dodge that same punch, and that clearly Implies that Ays Max powered flicker was the same speed. But idk, maybe we just have to agree to disagree.

Feats wise his speed didn't increase much. KCM Naruto reactions aren't any better than Minato's and he was able to react in the same manner. If Ay truly got faster, than KCM Narutos reactions are superior to Minato's, and Sage Narutos are way superior. And I just don't see that.

...... I never claimed Ay got slower though. Or Atleast in the post you quoted me in.


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## Sorin (May 17, 2015)

When Naruto says, "you're pretty fast for an old man" he actually implies that with age the speed is likely to decrease not increase. It's clear that A didn't improve his speed. 

Another thing, when StarWanderer brings the "17 years + experience" argument for A, he doesn't consider that Minato at that time of the fight with the A,B duo he wasn't Hokage either. So he still had some time to improve too, before his death. This was the man that perfected KCM in half a day. 

The most solid argument in favour of Minato is still the one where A is admitting inferiority in present tense, when he met Naruto. However you slice it though, Minato always comes out on top.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

Pretty much 
This is the one battle where I expect mods to lock because the winner is very predetermined 
A can't win whether believers based on nothing but fandom tbink A got faster 

He admitted to still be slower than minato . Minato wins low-mid diff


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - To be honest I am not that convinced about the Juubi's jinchuuriki's durability that much either.
> - Well, Minato never needed it in any of his fights with A & B, and surely enough he does not need it now



JJ's are pretty durable, but their main form of defense is their insane regen. They can survive things more durable characters can't.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Can you prove that shunshin depends solely on chakra and has nothing to do with raw speed ?



Edo Tobirama demonstrated better raw speed and reaction speed then Edo KCM Minato, yet his Shunshin is slower. And thats only one example.



> You seem to think that just because Karin wasn't around 20 years ago, or that any sensor didn't outright say " he has Bjuu - level chakra ", that he didn't have Bjuii level chakra back then. I didn't know Kishi outright explains every single little thing like that to us.



Kishimoto himself stated that Raikage Ei's chakra is tailed beast level. There was nothing like that about young Ei. And by the way, Minato is a sensor. 

There is no proof young Ei had that chakra level.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Pretty much
> This is the one battle where I expect mods to lock because the winner is very predetermined
> A can't win whether believers based on nothing but fandom tbink A got faster
> 
> He admitted to still be slower than minato . Minato wins low-mid diff



 Ei can win if this was Armless Minato.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> You need to examine the entire context of the situation not just what's said.
> 
> Minato appeared on the battlefield before any of the Hokage, Hiruzen praises Minato's speed, and then Tobirama remarks how Minato's "Shunshin" is better than his right after Hiruzen's comment.
> 
> We've got a feat (Minato appearing first) and statements praising Minato's speed. What the author is conveying with all this information is clear.



I am talking about Hiraishin, not Shunshin. Minato's Shunshin is faster without a doubt, but his Hiraishin is not faster - its just better.



> I don't see any reason to assume Minato would get so much faster when he's already outpacing other Shunshin and even space-time users. If anything Minato's training focus would be mastering Sage Mode and combining his element with Rasengan. That's what Minato was trying to do before he died.



There were few shinobi faster then Minato. He would have to become even faster if he stayed alive.



> I'll rephrase that: nothing implies chakra was the main thing that kept A from approaching Minato's tier. Minato is just better than A overall. This is a man who mastered advanced space-time jutsu, Uzumaki Fūin, created a human version of the Bijūdama in Rasengan, dabbled in the Sage Arts, and mastered Kyūbi Chakra Mode in no time at all. What has A done that's remotely on par with these incredible feats of genius and skill?



Nothing. But Raikage Ei is not a young teenager Ei. They are too different beasts in terms of power and speed.



> There's no proof A with the level of speed you're describing here would pose any threat to Minato.



To base Minato? Yes he will. 



> Not only that, Minato had time to drop a kunai before teleporting over to another one.



Thats nice.



> Yet A's style is the same at its core: one-dimensional. So I remain unconvinced on that.



Yeah, with style thing, i completely agree.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Ei can win if this was Armless Minato.



Lol 
Maybe not even . Minato could take him out of the battle field still 
I give him the benefit of the doubt here


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## StickaStick (May 17, 2015)

Minato burries Ei. Kishi couldn't have made the portrayal between the two more clear, with Ei in fact being one of Minato's biggest chearleaders.


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## Thunder (May 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I am talking about Hiraishin, not Shunshin. Minato's Shunshin is faster without a doubt, but his Hiraishin is not faster - its just better.



Okay. I'm not 100 percent sure on that but it's not important enough to press.



> There were few shinobi faster then Minato. He would have to become even faster if he stayed alive.


I'm still not understanding how any of that relates to A, though. Minato can become as fast as he wants but that doesn't mean A is suddenly able to match Minato's speed. You're trying to equalize their speed with nothing more than "A got faster". It's fine if you believe that, but you need to _prove_ that the new level of speed A acquired is enough to tag Minato. Gut feelings aren't enough to convince me on this.



> Nothing. But Raikage Ei is not a young teenager Ei. They are too different beasts in terms of power and speed.


Even if that is the case, _prove_ that whatever gains A made over time are enough to put him on Minato's level. 



> To base Minato? Yes he will.


You say base Minato as if base Minato is weak. He's not. Base Minato can defeat far more characters than any version of A because he's stronger than A overall.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 18, 2015)

People are usually faster in their prime than they are at 50.  That was the case for Sarutobi as well.  Shi didn't comment that Ei's V2 was faster than Minato, or that his reflexes surpassed Yondaime.  He said they were on par, and both he and Raikage referred to the Minato incident in the present tense.  It would be hard for me to justify Ei surpassing Minato in speed when no one in the manga even hints to it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> People are usually faster in their prime than they are at 50.  That was the case for Sarutobi as well.  Shi didn't comment that Ei's V2 was faster than Minato, or that his reflexes surpassed Yondaime.  He said they were on par, and both he and Raikage referred to the Minato incident in the present tense.  It would be hard for me to justify Ei surpassing Minato in speed when no one in the manga even hints to it.



A doesn't look like a regular 50 year old tbh. He looks extremely fit and buff. 

And Hiruzen was 69(though he looked much older) and he isn't a taijutsu/physical monster like A.

Not saying A has gotten faster through out the years. Just that real world logic doesn't apply to Naruto characters most of the time.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 19, 2015)

Hiruzen was already experiencing stamina problems in his mid-fifties, during the Kyuubi attack, and had stepped down probably a few years prior.  Onoki also had age related problems some of the time.  Chiyo didn't seem to, even though she looks ancient, but she had low scores in stamina comparable to the sick and the elderly.  So it is a fairly present point through Naruto.

I can accept Ei and his father being one of those clans with strong bodies that resist aging, because they obviously aren't normal, taking teleporters and having bijuu level stamina and whatnot.  Time certainly caught up to him a few years later.  I can't imagine that Ei being as fast and strong as the one who bodied Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hiruzen was already experiencing stamina problems in his mid-fifties, during the Kyuubi attack, and had stepped down probably a few years prior.  Onoki also had age related problems some of the time.  Chiyo didn't seem to, even though she looks ancient, but she had low scores in stamina comparable to the sick and the elderly.  So it is a fairly present point through Naruto.
> 
> I can accept Ei and his father being one of those clans with strong bodies that resist aging, because they obviously aren't normal, taking teleporters and having bijuu level stamina and whatnot.  Time certainly caught up to him a few years later.  I can't imagine that Ei being as fast and strong as the one who bodied Sasuke.



I think Hiruzen was simply poor portrayal. Jiraiya was 53 years old when he fought Pain, and the dude didn't express any physical declination. He had tier 5 stamina, tier 4.5 speed and strength.

Chiyo was older than Hiruzen, and a very small person and a puppeteer and a woman, so its understandable that her physical stats weren't top notch. But she still had tier 4 speed and she moved really well against Sasori. 

Assuming there was a 10 year skip, A'd be in his 60's in that scan and probably retired some time ago. But still, looking @ A's form when he faced Sasuke, there is no sign of old age. He actually looks stronger and bigger than his younger incarnation.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

onoki was actually faster past his prime

though I don't see how any increase in speed people want to assume A obtained makes the slightest difference


considering minato and A engaged several times over a certain period, I don't know if it was years or not

A still made the assessment he could not beat minato 

*nothing A has showed since his first appearance to the last slightly suggests minato doesn't bully him*

regardless of his speed minato is still faster. He amps to Max speed minato got time to spread kunai during that interval 

he goes for V1, the likes of jugo can react so minato will sip tea while avoiding V1 A

for those who have never gotten it. with 30 kunai on the field the probability of A guessing where minato appears next is a permutation of 30 kunai. 

A reactions don't grant him sensing skills or eyes behind his head. the best he can do is look at an angle behind him as he showed in the manga .minato could very well be at the other angle half the time

long story very short kishi has said minato>A


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

Minato is certainly the stronger of two, but not by some huge margin as some in this thread would seem to imply. If Minato could defeat A "with ease" or "low diff" then I doubt he would have survived every subsequent bout they had later in the war. He could at the very least compete.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 19, 2015)

This thread is very disrespectful. Minato wins with some diff because V2 shunshin might make him make some close dodges(though minato was casually dodging A's max shunshin after seeing it once but he also wasn't on the offense). A gets knocked around on his ass by rasengan's until he's defeated he's not touching minato anyway.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> This thread is very disrespectful. Minato wins with some diff because V2 shunshin might make him make some close dodges(though minato was casually dodging A's max shunshin after seeing it once but he also wasn't on the offense). A gets knocked around on his ass by rasengan's until he's defeated he's not touching minato anyway.



 That, and the fact that Ei was confident he could perceive where Minato would warp to implying he'd probably perceive Minato before Minato can successfully strike Ei.


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## Kyu (May 19, 2015)

> This thread is very disrespectful.



Hardly my intention, homie. I was curious on the general consensus was regarding this fight. More one-sided than I thought it'd be. In all likelihood, the end result appears to be Minato caving Ei's skull in after numerous failed blitz attempts by the Raikage.

Mods can lock whenever.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Hardly my intention, homie. I was curious on the general consensus was regarding this fight. More one-sided than I thought it'd be. In all likelihood, the end result appears to be Minato caving Ei's skull in after numerous failed blitz attempts by the Raikage.
> 
> Mods can lock whenever.



 I have respect for you admitting that Minato would have some difficulty.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Ei in his prime could dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu and fight KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time, giving them lots of trouble in that fight.

Now, lets talk about base Minato' feats. Bring them here.


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## Sorin (May 20, 2015)

Dodging A's max shunshin as per canon. 

Some people are glad that Minato might have some difficulty in bringing down A. I don't know why but it's pretty funny.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Sorin said:


> Dodging A's max shunshin as per canon.
> 
> Some people are glad that Minato might have some difficulty in bringing down A. I don't know why but it's pretty funny.



*Young Ei*'s max shunshin as per canon. Young Ei was a featless non-kage teenager.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Raikage A still said he was slower 
 
arguing with the manga at its best


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Raikage A still said he was slower
> 
> arguing with the manga at its best



Arguing the manga? Thats wrong.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

well you are arguing against the manga statement from A the character who straight up said minato was impossible to defeat and that is the fastest

even if u want to claim A got 100 times faster he is still slower than minato by his own admission


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well you are arguing against the manga statement from A the character who straight up said minato was impossible to defeat and that is the fastest
> 
> even if u want to claim A got 100 times faster he is still slower than minato by his own admission



I already explained why that statement proves nothing about adult Raikage Ei.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

>Adult A makes a statement about Minato being his superior

>Adult A's statement doesn't apply to adult A


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## Bonly (May 20, 2015)

>Adult A makes a statement about Minato being his superior

>Adult A's statement doesn't apply to adult A


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >Adult A makes a statement about Minato being his superior
> 
> >Adult A's statement doesn't apply to adult A



He said that he was the fastest shinobi now when Minato is dead, applying that if Minato was still alive, Minato would have been the fastest.

But he was *dead*. Minato never reached his prime. 

Also, Raikage said he couldnt defeat Minato every time they fought in the past and that until Minato's death, he never thought Minato will be ever defeated.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He said that he was the fastest shinobi now when Minato is dead, applying that if Minato was still alive, Minato would have been the fastest.



Yes.



> But he was *dead*. Minato never reached his prime.



...and since there is no possible way that A could've known has quick Minato would have become over the years, he wouldn't have made any comments regarding this hypothetical "Prime Minato" (assuming that Minato never did actually reach his prime). 



> Also, Raikage said he couldnt defeat Minato every time they fought in the past and that until Minato's death, he never thought Minato will be ever defeated.



A thought that there wasn't anyone in existence that could surpass the 4th Hokage. That would include himself.

Had A believed himself to be stronger/faster than the 4th, he wouldn't have made these statements. They serve no purpose in relation to Naruto because Naruto wasn't dealing with flashback A.

Yay context!


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

Yeah, A was comparing his current self to the Minato he faced. Not his younger self.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He believed in that way because of how many times he lost to Minato and because he never seen anyone as good as him. But he cant realy know how well would he be able to compete against Minato of those times, consider how many improvements he had during those 17 years.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> But he cant realy know how well would he be able to compete against Minato of those times, consider how many improvements he had during those 17 years.



A made the statement.

A has full knowledge on himself. 

A is aware of his own improvements.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

That's A B SHI logic and you know it.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A made the statement.
> 
> A has full knowledge on himself.
> 
> A is aware of his own improvements.



Yes, but he cant be sure of how good he would have performed against Minato of those times. Its like a situation with some boxers and MMA fighters. A fighter knows about his abilities, knows about all his improvements, fought his future opponent before and think he'll beat him. But when a fight happens, he is outclassed by his opponent.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

Judged UFC wrestling matches ≠ Shounen magical ninja battles.

Now that we got that out of the way: that analogy isn't even applicable as it isn't Minato claiming superiority over A but rather A admitting inferiority to Minato. Minato hasn't changed for the better _or worse_, and we don't have a good reason to believe A is overestimating Minato's capabilities since they fought not _once_ but _many_ times. Oh, and A isn't one to underestimate himself either.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Actually in terms of speed minato will always win by A own admission however something just clicked 
its possible they fought many times and A survived because minato couldn't actually put him down 

logically speaking it doesn't matter how fast A is going, minato is using S/T he will always be faster so A would be fighting a loosign battle using bijuu chakra levels just to fall behind minato speed

now if A is as durable as his dad and you believe that then minato must fight A till A exhausts himself 

if A isn't as durable as his dad then minato wins after a few rasengans or more


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Judged UFC wrestling matches ≠ Shounen magical ninja battles.
> 
> Now that we got that out of the way: that analogy isn't even applicable as it isn't Minato claiming superiority over A but rather A admitting inferiority to Minato. Minato hasn't changed for the better _or worse_, and we don't have a good reason to believe A is overestimating Minato's capabilities since they fought not _once_ but _many_ times. Oh, and A isn't one to underestimate himself either.



Maybe Minato did so much better in their fights that Ei thought Minato would have been the fastest if he was alive?

But realy, Ei cant be 100% right about his fight with Minato. 17 years have passed and he got a lot better since those times when he fought Minato. 

Also, Ei said that he *thought* Minato would never be surpassed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Actually in terms of speed minato will always win by A own admission however something just clicked
> its possible they fought many times and A survived because minato couldn't actually put him down
> 
> logically speaking it doesn't matter how fast A is going, minato is using S/T he will always be faster so A would be fighting a loosign battle using bijuu chakra levels just to fall behind minato speed
> ...



Ei and Minato only seemed to have that one encounter.  Otherwise it's more likely Minato didn't want to kill them because he really liked them.  

Hiraishin tags don't go away.  So if Ei got tagged once in any battle, from every battle therein Minato can warp him to Iwa and make him run home.  That probably only happens once before Ei stops challenging him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe Minato did so much better in their fights that Ei thought Minato would have been the fastest if he was alive?
> 
> But realy, Ei cant be 100% right about his fight with Minato. 17 years have passed and he got a lot better since those times when he fought Minato.
> 
> Also, Ei said that he *thought* Minato would never be surpassed.



Great, so Ei never even thought he'd ever surpass Minato.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ei and Minato only seemed to have that one encounter.  Otherwise it's more likely Minato didn't want to kill them because he really liked them.
> 
> Hiraishin tags don't go away.  So if Ei got tagged once in any battle, from every battle therein Minato can warp him to Iwa and make him run home.  That probably only happens once before Ei stops challenging him.




A said we fought many times
you read the manga right 

perhaps minato never tagged him intentionally to keep the fight interesting. its a cheat to basically be able to kill your enemy at any time


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## Thunder (May 20, 2015)

A may have survived against Minato many times, however that doesn't necessarily mean Minato was _unable_ to kill A any of those times.  

Even  the God of Shinobi doesn't have the best track record when it comes to  finishing fights. Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him.  Hashirama fought Madara numerous times and only went for a killing blow  when the fate of his newly created village was on the line.

We don't know the details of those off-panel bouts between Minato and A. But I doubt durability was the only thing keeping A in the game because it seems like Kishimoto wants us to believe Minato was just better overall. You usually don't call someone _"unsurpassed"_ if they lack the techniques to straight up defeat you.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

this is true thunder 
gotta agree, am sure I said something like this before yet some great poster argue this 


minato wins its cannon


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## StarWanderer (May 21, 2015)

> Great, so Ei never even thought he'd ever surpass Minato.



No, he said that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.


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## Legend777 (May 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No, he said that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.



That's even worse considering that there were shinobi stronger than Ei.


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

I think star is trolling intentionally 

considering this 


> Great, so Ei never even thought he'd ever surpass Minato.



No, he said that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.


I don't see how that doesn't exactly translate to A saying I am <minato


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> That's even worse considering that there were shinobi stronger than Ei.



Surpassed in *speed*?

And what shinobi? Teenager Obito, out of his prime Hirusen and Third Raikage, to whom SM Naruto reacted without any problems? 



> I don't see how that doesn't exactly translate to A saying I am <minato



Maybe you should re-read that chapter?


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

he said minato was an impossible shinobi to surpass 
he wasn't simply referring to speed
and if he was its the same
you cant beat an enemy you cant catch

A only game is a speed game and he is slower. minato will always beat him. minato is the worst opponent for A beside the god tier


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> he said minato was an impossible shinobi to surpass



"He was a great man, one i thought would never be surpassed".

One i *THOUGHT* would never be surpassed.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

yes and A came to that conclusion because  A got trolled far too often 



look at the polls. everyone has told u already. bored of repeating myself. 

there is no singular situation through 1 on 1 battle or against any enemy that A would fair better than minato


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes and A came to that conclusion because  A got trolled far too often
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes but it seems you dont care about what *exactly* Ei told right there. And you dont care about his feats.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

his feats are inferior to minatos so no I don't care about his lesser feats
and he said minato>himself 

which is all u need to know

both hype and feats A comes off laughably inferior


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> his feats are inferior to minatos so no I don't care about his lesser feats



Dodged Amaterasu, tossed around both KCM Naruto and Bee. That's not "laughably inferior", at all.

And we duscussed what he said.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

escaped kamui mid wrap 
kamui>>amaterasu. don't let me call raikiri 19 to give you a lesson on them please. 

trolled obito. u know the same guy who basically could stand there and avoid KCM+kakashi+bee+gai

also your statement implies minato cant hold back Naruto and base bee. 

considering minato got his chakra sealed in Naruto already, something tells me minato would always be a step ahead with hirashin and easily at that. also he got bee tagged. just saying 

they wont be avoiding minato in their best dreams

got anything else


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> escaped kamui mid wrap
> kamui>>amaterasu. don't let me call raikiri 19 to give you a lesson on them please.
> 
> trolled obito. u know the same guy who basically could stand there and avoid KCM+kakashi+bee+gai
> ...



Prove that Kamui >>> Amaterasu. And bring it on - call Raikiri.

Prove that teenager Obito = adult Obito.

Minato would have lots of problems holding them both. In act, Minato cant beat KCM Naruto and Bee.

KCM Naruto's Shunshin speed and reaction speed are better then those of Minato yet he cant avoid Minato in his best dreams? And do you know that young Bee reacted to Minato twice?


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

@starwanderer much better feats put kamui above amaterasu. stop being silly you know this. also madara comment about both techniques sort of tells you which is clearly above the other. 

gets hit by amaterasu. techniques of this level mean nothing to me

gedo arm gets ripped off. ah those are some good eyes he got there. yh sure lets compare them 

lol you made the false unsubstantiated claim. you have to prove that adult obito>>young obito. since said assumption cant be made, kishi said nothing of the sort 

 lots of trouble when both are already marked? ...both would be going no where. both are marked. even if they were 1000km away minato still shows up right infront of them with tea 

minato using hirashin can get behind in front or around Naruto anytime he dam well pleases. A reactions and physical speed exceed minato/s tell me how did that help A?

oh wait yh he got trolled. Also notice bee on panel already said he cant follow such speeds. being able to anticipate minato attack once isn't remotely the same as being able to keep fighting with him evenly when minato wasn't even directly facing him and it wasn't 1 on 1 

also minato didn't use SM. something that he has been shown to instantly activate. being able to get a kunai in front of juudara and appear at juudara before juudara could move or kamui could be performed clearly shows 

minato is largerly above. though A already said this and you are just having fun being trolly


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