# Law vs Kuma vs Nagato vs Barragan



## xlab3000 (May 4, 2014)

Random Encounter
Law's room is open
Barragan starts released
Everyone is IC
Round 1 Nagato is in his prime (non-edo)
Round 2 Edo Nagato
Location: Great Ninja War Battlefied


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## Chad (May 4, 2014)

Repira 















and everyone here knows who these characters are, so why post 1000x1000 images of them? 












At least use spoiler tags OP


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 4, 2014)

Nagato wins, he's got gigatons


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## Vicotex (May 4, 2014)

Gedo soul reaping hax


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Nagato gigaton .

The order would go:

Nagato
Law
Kuma
Barragan


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

Kuma sends them all to another country..... Law... Being above Kuma... How did you even get that?  Also who cares about Gigaton when you have a hax guy that can send them anywhere in the planet by touching..


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

With feats . Law has more feats than Kuma . And better ones mind you . Kuma should get scaled to the same speed but that's about it . Law has megaton range and only had to cut .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

er what feat.. feats of getting pummeled by doflamingo?  .... seriously Kuma was untouchable on the war arc even for Ivankov and he had a dead brain by that time... So what superior feat are you talking about? You also forgot that Law's cut can't kill and who says those Megaton aren't scalable to Kuma?  Kuma is still a giant unknown in current OP and he is still a Shichibukai.. you putting him below Law is laughable.. seriously.

Current Ranking for the shishibukai is probably closer to this.
Mihawk
Doflamingo
Hancock
Kuma, Jimbei
Law
Buggy


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Law's  DC ?


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

What DC. .... Because from what I know you can't give DC to Law's room cut as those are dimensional cut which typically ignores durability... so what Megaton are we talking about here? and also anyone on Current M3 level is only town - MCB level which include Law...


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Law is city level .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

Both instances used the rooms dimensional ability....


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Exactly . So what ? He needs a parameter, it's not like he's universal inside room .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

........ Dimensional Ability Ignores those energy...  You can't calc them like that. Now unless Law picks up that giant meteor tosses it with one arm without opening a room or he slash a mountain like Mihawk without starting a room then we can start talking about his DC..


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

He needs a parameter as I said, it's not because it's in Room that he doesn't need a parameter . So you're basically saying that an object with infinite mass inside Room is going to get moved like a piece of paper .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

................ Dimensional Ability tends to ignore those masses so yes he would be able to move them.... as long as all of it is contained within the room and he can cut those like papers..


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## Sablés (May 4, 2014)

People still think Kuma is hax?

IIRC, It's visibly shown that Luffy was sent flying (not teleported) by the force of Kuma's  paw therefore it's restricted by NLF to anyone physically stronger than Pre-TS Strawhats.


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## TehChron (May 4, 2014)

Stables, check yer vms


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## Revan Reborn (May 4, 2014)

......
Kuma doesn't touch barragan becuase of respira
can law somehow room away his respira?
what about nagato?


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 4, 2014)

slayedigneel said:


> ......
> Kuma doesn't touch barragan becuase of respira
> can law somehow room away his respira?
> what about nagato?



Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei gg


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Law easily Shambles Respira back . Kuma has no problems with Respira . He can BFR Barragan or make Ursus Shock to take away Respira . And Nagato has Shinra Tensei to push away Respira .

The fight is between the three . And Nagato is on gigatons .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

> IIRC, It's visibly shown that Luffy was sent flying (not teleported) by the force of Kuma's paw therefore it's restricted by NLF to anyone physically stronger than Pre-TS Strawhats.




Well shouldn't it depend on where Kuma get scaled though, which we usually do for higher ranking character?  and it wouldn't really be NLF because we do know where his limit is at around Dofla's level... which is pretty fair for his ranking.


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Kuma gets scaled AT LEAST to  and I think he should get to DD's speed . Not that it matters since with good reaction time he has his paws that are really fast .


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2014)

I'm talking about the strength of his Paw (Attack and as a containment"durability") Obviously... He is around that level Pre-TS so why are you guys holding it back to pre-ts Straw hat when everyone knows that that shit is BS?


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

I'm not . I say that he should get at least Post TS Sanji's scaling .


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 4, 2014)

Sanji's had some really shitty performances since the timeskip, he has to win some time 

It's a shame because he's my favorite strawhat


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## ShadowReaper (May 4, 2014)

Nagato>Law>Kuma>Barragan.

Nagato is a top tier in his verse, has Chibaku Tensei, can rip souls, bend gravity, can absorb Respira or Kuma's "Paw attacks" etc and isn't being controlled by Kabuto, so would be able to use all his powers to full extent.


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## Vicotex (May 4, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> Nagato>Law>Kuma>Barragan.
> 
> Nagato is a top tier in his verse, has Chibaku Tensei, can rip souls, bend gravity, *can absorb Respira* or Kuma's "Paw attacks" etc and isn't being controlled by Kabuto, so would be able to use all his powers to full extent.



are you sure respira isn't going to age that absorbtion barrier?


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Can't Law just shamble the Chibaku tensei center orb back at Nagato, making him harm himself?


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## Iwandesu (May 4, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> are you sure respira isn't going to age that absorbtion barrier?


Is respira made of reiatsu? 
If so, he already tanked way stronger shit.


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> are you sure respira isn't going to age that absorbtion barrier?



That's made of Chakra, and chakra = energy and energy can't be aged . The same principle applies to why Kizaru's lazer would be effective even inside Respira .


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## Sablés (May 4, 2014)

Pretty sure Barragan has aged Kido and Soifon's Bankai.


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

So tell me what happens when he ages chakra ? Entropy ?


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## Dellinger (May 4, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Kuma gets scaled AT LEAST to  and I think he should get to DD's speed . Not that it matters since with good reaction time he has his paws that are really fast .



Kuma is one of the fastest in the series so he is MHS.


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

That's why I said at least .


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## Iwandesu (May 4, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Pretty sure Barragan has aged Kido and Soifon's Bankai.


Both which are way weakers than fuuton rasenshuriken


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## Source (May 4, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Pretty sure Barragan has aged Kido and Soifon's Bankai.



Haven't read that fight in ages but didn't he just make her Bankai explode prematurely?


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## DarkTorrent (May 4, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Lrn2hax   .



are you trying to say Respira isn't limited by the amount of energy/matter it can age in a certain timeframe?


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## Sablés (May 4, 2014)

Source said:


> Haven't read that fight in ages but didn't he just make her Bankai explode prematurely?



The first one I believe. Hacchi explicitly states the reason  he was unable to divert the second was because it detonated in close proximity for respira to work.




DarkTorrent said:


> are you trying to say Respira isn't limited by the amount of energy/matter it can age in a certain timeframe?



are you saying you haven't debated this point several times  in the past with the conclusion remaining constant: Occam's Razor dictates Barry applies time acceleration through Respira instead of some abstract overly complicated theory i.e, a complete waste of time,,,,? Or am I remembering wrong?

Either way, I'll pass on this thanks.


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## Iwandesu (May 4, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Lrn2hax   .


Pointless 
 paths itself is haxed enough to nlf absorbs anything made of chakra=reiatsu.


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## LineageCold (May 4, 2014)

(Don't feel like reading through the thread)

But Nagato must likely takes it.

>All of his summonings/ Cerberus (which can tank a FRS with minor damage) Gedo maza(soul rip/Thunder strike)
Invisible summoning etc.

>He can also casually absorb attacks with 40 megaton + due to (preta path)

>he can probably use a few of those Amped ST (which destroyed the village) seeing as he doesn't have to waste his chakra anymore controlling the paths, or just use a CST (he only needs one)

He mostly takes this due to being more versatile.


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## LazyWaka (May 4, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> Nagato>Law>Kuma>Barragan.
> 
> Nagato is a top tier in his verse, has Chibaku Tensei, can rip souls, bend gravity, can absorb Respira or Kuma's "Paw attacks" etc and isn't being controlled by Kabuto, so would be able to use all his powers to full extent.



Kuma's paws aren't getting absorbed since they are not made of something that can be equalized with chakra.



Sabl?s said:


> Pretty sure Barragan has aged Kido and Soifon's Bankai.



Soifons bankai is a solid object.

Anyway, not really sure how we'd treat respira vs absorbtion honestly.


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## Gibbs (May 4, 2014)

Nagato shinra tensei's Barragans respira at all others.


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## Ryo Shiki (May 4, 2014)

The cancer patient solos he's a level above everyone else here. Take him out & law probably wins


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## DarkTorrent (May 4, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> are you saying you haven't debated this point several times  in the past with the conclusion remaining constant: Occam's Razor dictates Barry applies time acceleration through Respira instead of some abstract overly complicated theory i.e, a complete waste of time,,,,? Or am I remembering wrong?
> 
> Either way, I'll pass on this thanks.



You are remembering it wrong 

Respira revolving around aging/lifespan and not acceleration of the passage of time, like I've argued, has no connection to the question of how much matter/energy it can affect and whether it's relevant altogether


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## B Rabbit (May 4, 2014)

Law is above Kuma.

Lol Jinbei being higher than Law.


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2014)

So much lol at Jinbe being > Law .


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## Iwandesu (May 4, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Anyway, not really sure how we'd treat respira vs absorbtion honestly.


It should go with what was shown on panel. 
Chakra=reiatsu. 
Respira is made of reiatsu and age things. 
Path barrier is made of chakra and absorbs chakra energy.
Respira affected soifon weaker than lanza bankai.
Paths absorbed stronger than lanza FRS.


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## Vicotex (May 4, 2014)

all i see is Nagato>Law>Baragan>Kuma


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## ShadowReaper (May 4, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> are you sure respira isn't going to age that absorbtion barrier?



Law's room is entirely different to the barriers made by Hachigen and is a Devil fruit power. And he can manipulate space and "move" people and objects inside this room, to avoid attacks etc. So what prevents him from cutting Barragan's head in 2 and so killing him?


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## PandaG (May 4, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> Law's room is entirely different to the barriers made by Hachigen and is a Devil fruit power.



I think the main difference is that Law's Room hasn't been shown to physically interact with it's surroundings, whereas Hachigen used his barriers to contain the explosion of Soifon's Bankai.


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## Tapion (May 5, 2014)

Kuma deflects law's room


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## Stermor (May 5, 2014)

kuma would try to blast and nagato away,  and then nagato summons himself back.


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

Stermor said:


> kuma would try to blast and nagato away,  and then nagato summons himself back.



Err, how does he do that?


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## Byrd (May 5, 2014)

This thread...

Kuma should be able to repel respira considering he can repel the sensation of pain and repel intangibles... 

So the Espada in this fight is really irrelevant.

Nagato tho with his DC and since speed is equalized would likely defeat both Kuma and Law but IC if he doesn't start with the big stuff... his ass could find himself at the other end of the planet or soul switch with Espada.


Factors in this fight:

Nagato must use his big stuff the beginning of the fight... or else Law and Kuma could very well win this. 

Barragan is a non-factor


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Can't Law just shamble the Chibaku tensei center orb back at Nagato, making him harm himself?



My question was ignored.


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## Stermor (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Err, how does he do that?



clone? or summon/reverse summon ? stick some of those recievers in his opponents and summon them?  i don't really care. nagato is to versatile to be flying through the air and not counter it. cancel the force out with shinra tensei would work just aswell i guess. but its much more fun to summon yourself back in this fight.



Byrd said:


> This thread...
> 
> Kuma should be able to repel respira considering he can repel the sensation of pain and repel intangibles...
> 
> ...



would soulswitch work on somebody like nagato? who can hold and use souls himself? human path seems like decent resistance to soul switch. since it can tear souls out and should be able to hold on to a body aswell?


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## Sablés (May 5, 2014)

Pretty sure CO can wipe the field clean of everyone not named Nagato.


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Pretty sure CO can wipe the field clean of everyone not named Nagato.



I honestly completely forgot that CO was upgraded to megatons recently. And it's AOE is impressive enough that law (and possibly Kuma, depending on how far he can warp himself) wont be able to escape it. Neither can Nagato, but he has absorption to compensate for that.


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## Sherlōck (May 5, 2014)

Law Solos.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

Sherlōck said:


> Law Solos.



How would he solo when Nagato completely outmatches him?


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## Aphelion (May 5, 2014)

I don't see how people can argue that Baraggan's ability is not simple time acceleration.

The effect is not directly related to his Reatsu.


He flat out states that it's based on time.


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> How would he solo when Nagato completely outmatches him?



Nagato only really outmatches him in terms of firepower. The ball is in Laws court for every other stat.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Nagato *only *really outmatches him in terms of firepower. The ball is in Laws court for every other stat.



He also outclass them in both durability (tanking an V2 Lariat with little noticeable injury ) and also reaction speed (easily reacting to KCM & killer bee)


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> He also outclass them in both durability (tanking an V2 Lariat with little noticeable injury ) and also reaction speed (easily reacting to KCM & killer bee)


Pretty much. Shinra tensei and basho tensei also affected both of them, Asura paths ignored bee punches from point in blank. And his kerberus summoning tanked frs from BM nardo.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 5, 2014)

Lol city level durability nagato.


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> He also outclass them in both durability (tanking an V2 Lariat with little noticeable injury ) and also reaction speed (easily reacting to KCM & killer bee)



That V2 lariat lacked the bone armor which would undoubtedly make it stronger thus meaning it cant be scaled to the lariat used on kisame.

Law has MHS reactions AND attack speed, so he's above Nagato in that department as well.


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> That V2 lariat lacked the bone armor which would undoubtedly make it stronger thus meaning it cant be scaled to the lariat used on kisame.
> 
> Law has MHS reactions AND attack speed, so he's above Nagato in that department as well.


He changed blows with both bm nardo and killer bee at the same time and did the Asura path to block killer bee while changing blows with bm nardo. He doesn't lack either speed nor attack speed. 
His shinra tensei pulled both of them away and he gets deva frs+ block with utter easy.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> That V2 lariat lacked the bone armor which would undoubtedly make it stronger thus meaning it cant be scaled to the lariat used on kisame.
> 
> Law has MHS reactions AND attack speed, so he's above Nagato in that department as well.



I didn't know not having the bone armor decreased the DC but meh (probably better to scale it to kinku tail whip)


Also, wouldn't kcm be easily scalable to the Choa FRS?


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> He changed blows with both bm nardo and killer bee at the same time and did the Asura path to block killer bee while changing blows with bm nardo. He doesn't lack either speed nor attack speed.
> His shinra tensei pulled both of them away and he gets deva frs+ block with utter easy.



That was tailed beast chakra mode Naruto, not BM Naruto, big difference.

Blocking base Killer Bee means little since he's only multi-city block level at most.


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> That was tailed beast chakra mode Naruto, not BM Naruto, big difference.
> Blocking base Killer Bee means little since he's only* multi-city block level *at most.


Base bee casually punched through a town+ katon at the same fight 
KCM is still 3 digit, isn't him?


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Base bee casually punched through a town+ katon at the same fight
> KCM is still 3 digit, isn't him?



What town+ Katon? and he didn't punch through it, he slashed it with Samahada.

KCM is triple digit, But that only applies to Nagato's reactions.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Base bee casually *punched* through a town+ katon at the same fight
> KCM is still 3 digit, isn't him?



It was due to Samehada (energy absorption)





But, his base Lariat can be scale to town+ For overpowering V2 A in there lariat duel


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> What town+ Katon? and he didn't punch through it, he slashed it with Samahada.
> KCM is triple digit, But that only applies to Nagato's reactions.


The one you are thinking about.  also yeah you're right. (I though he had used a basic sword)


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> It was due to Samehada (energy absorption)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only it doesn't because that requires V2 A to be town level+. He's not, his best feat is multi-city block level+.

Also, what makes that Katon town level+?


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Only it doesn't because that requires V2 A to be town level+. He's not, his best feat is multi-city block level+.
> Also, what makes that Katon town level+?


A is town due to tanking mads katons with other kages
Madara and curse Mark 2 sauce katon are town + due to this calc. Itachi katon is equivalent to curse Mark 2.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Only it doesn't because that requires V2 A to be town level+. He's not, his best feat is multi-city block level+.
> 
> Also, what makes that Katon town level+?



I assumed him being compared to the buuji can at least make his strongest attack (lariat) scalable to a casual V2 jin tail whip. (Iirc, didn't A pierced the Gyuki before  )


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## Source (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> A is town due to tanking mads katons with other kages
> Madara and curse Mark 2 sauce katon are town + due to this calc. Itachi katon is equivalent to curse Mark 2.



That's for durability, not DC.

The Kage (bar Oonoki) sure suck, don't they?


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> A is town due to tanking mads katons with other kages
> Madara and curse Mark 2 sauce katon are town + due to this calc. Itachi katon is equivalent to curse Mark 2.



Durability, not DC. Sasukes CS katon is not town+, 10kt is only slightly above the minimum for town level (7kt.) Nevermind that itachi's Katon was getting overpowered by it.


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Durability, not DC. Sasukes CS katon is not town+, 10kt is only slightly above the minimum for town level (7kt.) Nevermind that itachi's Katon was getting overpowered by it.


Got recalculated to 3 digit on the comments.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

Source said:


> That's for durability, not DC.
> 
> The Kage (bar Oonoki)* sure suck, don't they?*



Basically .

The only strong kages (also easily scalable) are Muu, Onoki, the Third A, Tobirama, hashi & the god of shonibi himself, Lord Hiruzen


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Basically .
> 
> The only strong kages (also easily scalable) are Muu, Onoki, the Third A, Tobirama, hashi & the god of shonibi himself, Lord Hiruzen


Gigaton to high megaton level gaara's father sand and country level bm minato. 
why is tobirama so overstimated when he only counts with speed and the same hax of minato


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## LazyWaka (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Got recalculated to 3 digit on the comments.



The comments are all over the place and it's hard to tell what the end result was.


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## Gibbs (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Pretty much. Shinra tensei and basho tensei also affected both of them, Asura paths ignored bee punches from point in blank. And his kerberus summoning tanked frs from BM nardo.


Cerberus tanked FRS from KCM Naruto, not Bijuu Mode Naruto.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

Source said:


> That's for durability, not DC.
> 
> The Kage (bar Oonoki) sure suck, don't they?



4th/5th gen of Kages are pretty weak in comparison to some of the early ones (Kazekage's in general aren't that impressive either) other than perhaps Yagura (who was controlled way too easily). Minato has BM but only after death and but he's got dat Hiraishin which makes him a great fodder killer


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 5, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> 4th/5th gen of Kages are pretty weak in comparison to some of the early ones (Kazekage's in general aren't that impressive either) other than perhaps Yagura (who was controlled way too easily). Minato has BM but only after death and but he's got dat Hiraishin which makes him a great fodder killer




The new generation surpasses the old!
Lol, Kishi.


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Cerberus tanked FRS from KCM Naruto, not Bijuu Mode Naruto.


it already got corrected by some time. 
KCM FRS is more than enough to scalle 50+ megatons frs anyway.


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The new generation surpasses the old!
> Lol, Kishi.


Bm minato fooderize any hokage bar hashirama and his Sm likely puts him above tobirama at speed.
yagura is indeed stronger and faster than trollkage.(current mizukage is shit tier)
gaara was toe to toe with his father (both were good for nothing besides dura, though).
mu shits on Oonoki.
third raikage shits on his whole village.
indeed lol to current generation meaning anything.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Bm minato fooderize any hokage bar hashirama and his Sm likely puts him above tobirama at speed.
> yagura is indeed stronger and faster than trollkage.(current mizukage is shit tier)
> gaara was toe to toe with his father (both were good for nothing besides dura, though).
> mu shits on Oonoki.
> ...



Minato having SM made no sense really, also you keep forgetting Prime Monkey


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 5, 2014)

Prime Hiruzen uses Conqueror's Haki and owns Bleach . OOOOOOOOH YEAH I SAID IT .


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Prime Hiruzen uses Conqueror's Haki and owns Bleach . OOOOOOOOH YEAH I SAID IT .



+rep for you too


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 5, 2014)

Save your reps to the king ... The Monkey Sage King .


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Save your reps to the king ... The Monkey Sage King .



He's gonna come out soon, Naruto and Sasuke are going to get stomped by someone like Kaguya or Madara with another boost, then Sarutobi fuses with Enma to form The Great Monkey Sage King and rofl stomp him. That's why Kishi has been saving him.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Gokufou is like tobirama version of konan explosion.
> >they couldn't measure juubi actual power, they only knew kyuubi and other bijuu which can be hurted  with* gigatons* (impressive nonetheless)
> If this means anything he has at least gigaton hype and if he indeed destroyed hashi Gate this is even more solid.



Although it is hard to believe, I gotta go off with the latter

Iirc, buuji were in the teratons. 

Also, hashi & tobirama witness juubi launching a Bb (but was not impressed)
(They also still went along with the plan that tobirama gojouki could of dealt with the jewbito)



Heck, hashi was pretty confident he could (react) & redirect juubi's bb with his mokuton


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Although it is hard to believe, I gotta go off with the latter
> 
> Iirc, buuji were in the teratons.



Only Kyuubi is teratons I think


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Although it is hard to believe, I gotta go off with the latter
> 
> Iirc, buuji were in the teratons.
> 
> ...


>Hashi is indeed casual with teratons.(and the barrier of the kages is easily exaton+ )
Bijjudama got calculated to 24k but anyone can react with enough distance. (As showed the mid tier of iwagakure and the characters as a whole many times by now.)
again, they couldn't die, had infinite amount of chakra and weren't afraid even when juubito utterly destroyed them. (They just understimated the juubi due to hashi alone being likely above all the Bijuu together and Tobirama having a similar power. )
as musubi stated only bijju with teraton range are kurama and gyuki (small country, though)
Tanuki and sanbi were easily defeated by gigaton Deidara. (Which is actually from what he got gigatons from)


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> >Hashi is indeed casual with teratons.(and the barrier of the kages is easily exaton+ )
> Bijjudama got calculated to 24k but anyone can react with enough distance. (As showed the mid tier of iwagakure and the characters as a whole many times by now.)
> again, they couldn't die, had infinite amount of chakra and weren't afraid even when juubito utterly destroyed them. (They just understimated the juubi due to hashi alone being likely above all the Bijuu together and Tobirama having a similar power. )
> as musubi stated only bijju with teraton range are kurama and gyuki (small country, though)
> Tanuki and sanbi were easily defeated by gigaton Deidara. (Which is actually from what he got gigatons from)



actually he got gigatons from bombing the island turtle I think


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> >Hashi is indeed casual with teratons.(and the barrier of the kages is easily exaton+ )
> Bijjudama got calculated to 24k but anyone can react with enough distance. (As showed the mid tier of *iwagakure *and the characters as a whole many times by now.)
> again, they couldn't die, had infinite amount of chakra and weren't afraid even when juubito utterly destroyed them. (They just understimated the juubi due to hashi alone being likely above all the Bijuu together and Tobirama having a similar power. )
> as musubi stated only bijju with teraton range are kurama and gyuki (small country, though)
> Tanuki and sanbi were easily defeated by gigaton Deidara. (Which is actually from what he got gigatons from)



It seems this is still widely accepted (1.4 teratons per buuji)


(In the comment section)

Also, if you was meant this,  



I highly doubt that's reacting. 



> .They just understimated the juubi due to hashi alone being likely above all the Bijuu together and Tobirama having a similar power.



Also I doubt that they were underestimating jewbito/juubi, but at first he did (until he broke the mokuton like it was paper)



Then hashi bluntly stated after seeing how power the juubi jin has gotten


(Basically, not in the slightest chance they were underestimating jewbito even if they were imortal)


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

being able to put a bijju down doesn't mean killing it.
you need gigatons to hurt the weaker bijjus also bijju can tank their own bijjudama but by any means they remain unharmed against their fullpowered ones (even hachibi was badly hurt after his fullpowered bijjudama being deflected at him).
tobirama is weaker than hashi. (he himself said and showed to fear him) even the gigaton powerscalle is iffy, and all of them were pretty much fooder shit compared to Jewbito.
it would be great, but he didn't show anything, only hype. is like saying sasori is country level cuz he took a country with his army and can get the gigaton powerscalle with deidara due to him stating sasori to be stronger than him.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> being able to put a bijju down doesn't mean killing it.
> you need gigatons to hurt the weaker bijjus also bijju can tank their own bijjudama but by any means they remain unharmed against their fullpowered ones (even hachibi was badly hurt after his fullpowered bijjudama being deflected at him).
> tobirama is weaker than hashi. (he himself said and showed to fear him) even the gigaton powerscalle is iffy, and all of them were pretty much fooder shit compared to Jewbito.
> it would be great, but he didn't show anything, only hype. is like saying sasori is country level cuz he took a country with his army and can get the gigaton powerscalle with deidara due to him stating sasori to be stronger than him.



???

I don't even know what were arguing anymore? 

All I was doing was answering ur points, I never mention  diedara scaling or anything about buuji durability until you mentioned.

All I was trying to imply is tobirama was able to destroy one of those pillars (if you find it as outliner its up to you)

Although, while ur mentioning diedara, tobirama "Gojouki Bakufuda" can easily be scale to diedara C3


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## Iwandesu (May 5, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> ???
> I don't even know what were arguing anymore?
> All I was doing was answering ur points, I never mention  diedara scaling or anything about buuji durability until you mentioned.
> All I was trying to imply is tobirama was able to destroy one of those pillars (if you find it as outliner its up to you)
> Although, while ur mentioning diedara, tobirama can easily be scale to diedara C3


I might missed the point. 
destroying the gate is an over impressive feat which should give a huge powerup but the thing is, as you said, if the Gates are the same which restrained juubi it end up being a exaton+ feat which is indeed an outlier for obviously reasons. 
Almost no one like to Scalle through Deidara, though. Nonetheless,  an explosive attack might be worthy of a try.


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## LineageCold (May 5, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> I might missed the point.
> destroying the gate is an over impressive feat which should give a huge powerup but the thing is, as you said, if the Gates are the same which restrained juubi it end up being a exaton+ feat which is indeed an outlier for obviously reasons.
> Almost no one like to *Scalle through Deidara,* though. Nonetheless,  an explosive attack might be worthy of a try.



It gon be scale today 

(Although, this is a quite generous scaling to be fair)

Regardless , you mentioned konan paper explosion a page back, (if I'm doing this correctly, in total , she easily be packing gigatons worth of energy which is also scalable to tobirama)

That's if the 600 billion statement was legit


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## Zeno (May 5, 2014)

Nagato has the destructive capacity. Law has the hax. Between those two, I'd wager.


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## Maki (May 5, 2014)

Well, Barragan is right out, everyone has some kind of plausible counter to respira.

Kuma is out too, iirc, his bfr needs physical contact and I don't think he can get to law or bfr all paths before they take him down.

I guess it comes down to can law shambles away everything nagato throws at him. I don't think he'd be able to resist a powerful chibaku tensei though.


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## LazyWaka (May 6, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> being able to put a bijju down doesn't mean killing it.
> *you need gigatons to hurt the weaker bijjus* also bijju can tank their own bijjudama but by any means they remain unharmed against their fullpowered ones (even hachibi was badly hurt after his fullpowered bijjudama being deflected at him).
> tobirama is weaker than hashi. (he himself said and showed to fear him) even the gigaton powerscalle is iffy, and all of them were pretty much fooder shit compared to Jewbito.
> it would be great, but he didn't show anything, only hype. is like saying sasori is country level cuz he took a country with his army and can get the gigaton powerscalle with deidara due to him stating sasori to be stronger than him.



Weaker Bijuu constitutes Bijuu 1-8. They are all equal (reletively) save for the nine tails.



LineageCold said:


> It gon be scale today
> 
> (Although, this is a quite generous scaling to be fair)
> 
> ...



We have no reason to doubt the number. But we also have no business applying it to Tobirama since it was a prep feat.


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## Chad (May 6, 2014)

Killer Bee is a lot stronger than Bijuu's 1-7.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 6, 2014)

Astral said:


> Killer Bee is a lot stronger than Bijuu's 1-7.



perfect jinchuurikis like him make better use of their Bijuu's powers, Hachibi should be a bit stronger though in general than 1-7


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## LazyWaka (May 6, 2014)

Astral said:


> Killer Bee is a lot stronger than Bijuu's 1-7.



Not really. The Feats pretty much showed that Bijuu 2-8 were nigh even (and bijuu 2-7 were all shown to be equal in DC, don't forget Hachibi is the one being powerscaled from them as they have better showings).

And before anyone brings up him hitting the Gobi, the Gobi was the one drawing blood from Hachibi before that.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> perfect jinchuurikis like him make better use of their Bijuu's powers, Hachibi should be a bit stronger though in general than 1-7



Why? The Tails power scale has proven to be all but bull.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 6, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Why? The Tails power scale has proven to be all but bull.



I suppose so


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## LineageCold (May 6, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> We have no reason to doubt the number. But we also have no business applying it to Tobirama since it was a prep feat.



If it's so then be it  


His "Gojouki Bakufuda" can easily be scaled to diediera casual jellyfish C3/or what ever you call it.


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## Brightsteel (May 6, 2014)

Sasuke and Nardo are the reincarnation of the Sages sons, Sarutobi is the Sage himself. Logic at its finest.


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## Iwandesu (May 6, 2014)

Brightsteel said:


> Sasuke and Nardo are the reincarnation of the Sages sons, Sarutobi is the Sage himself. Logic at its finest.


All hail the Monkey Sage


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 6, 2014)

Brightsteel said:


> Sasuke and Nardo are the reincarnation of the Sages sons, Sarutobi is the Sage himself. Logic at its finest.



They do sort of look alike


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## Brightsteel (May 6, 2014)

Kishi better do it. Least he could do, is do one good thing out of Part 2.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 6, 2014)

There's been a few good things, but other than 8 Gate Gai, nothing much else since before the damn war started. It'd be nice though


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## xlab3000 (May 6, 2014)

How about I get those good reps now? So who do you guys say is the winner of this fight?


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## LazyWaka (May 6, 2014)

Killer Bee was good. Him lariating Sasukes ass is still one of the most memorable moments in the manga.


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## Iwandesu (May 6, 2014)

xlab3000 said:


> How about I get those good reps now? So who do you guys say is the winner of this fight?


nagato wins most of the scenario. 6/10
law comes at second 3/10
then it is kuma 1/10
barragan is so outclassed is not fun.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 6, 2014)

Killer Bee's had some really good fights, him vs Sasuke and particularly the fight against the Kisame clone were great. I'm still not sure how Sasuke surived that lariat considered it destroyed his upper chest "organs and all"


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## LineageCold (May 6, 2014)

Still the best thing to happen in part 2.


*Spoiler*: __ 



. 





"This little shit"


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## Vicotex (May 7, 2014)

Tobirama would have crushed his soul


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## LightspeedLanza (May 11, 2014)

Between Law and Kuma, I would say that Kuma is still stronger. However, Barragan's Respira is pretty hax.


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