# Hashirama Vs Minato... (Read OP)



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama: With all his abilities.... (Mokuton, power/stamina, SM and regeneration)

VS

Minato: With all his abilities... (V2 raikage level physical speed/reflexes, Hiriashin of all 3 levels, Uzumaki seals/shiki fuujin, rasengan and boss toads summons as well as sage toads summons to use frog song and the rest of thier abilities) plus I will give him his unknown jutsu (Spiral flash dance ring howl technique) which I will predict is a 6 kage Bushin teleport to 6 kunai tags in a ring around the enemy and hit him/her simultaneously with 6 ransegans from all sides...
Each one having this Kind of destructive power beyond an oodama rasnegan and sage double rasengan: able to destroy a small battle field...

*Spoiler*: __ 








CONDITIONS:
They are fighting in Konoha crater,  both have just revived as if they never died, but are not edo's, thus minato has a basic knowledge of hashirama while hashi knows nothing of minato which is how it would be.

*Canon Points for minato since he will undoubtedly get underestimated in this fight...*
: Hashirama has proven he can be killed by a Kunai when he was going to off himself with one..
:  Minato's Hiraishin tags/seals never go away and can be placed through touch, or thrown with kunai.
: Hashirama's physical speed/relfexes are no better then Madara's who could not even compete with V1 raikage as proven here:

Thus, due to Minato's being o par with V2 raikage. Minato's physical speed/reflexes>>Hashirama's. Not ot mention that Minato's SHUSHIN>>Hashirama's as well, shown recently.
: Minato has TAGS/Seals all over the fire country as well as other countries to use so large scale attack are not going to be enough unless they can cover an entire country. Thus Sm level attacks from hashirama are not going to overwhelm minato obviously.
: Minato's Kunai throwing speed is so fast he got a Kunai all the way to the SEA from the current battle field within a couple seconds, in base mode as shown here:

Thus his Level 2 hiriashin is going to be just as fast for movement.
: Can use the Hiraishin body swap with a kage bushin to put his enemy in front of his own attacks as shown here:5

GO....


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

NO, just NO......

Hashirama is better than everyone else except Madara (arguably) / Jubito in either portrayal or feats, Minato is FAR from him. 
You expect Minato to blitz Hashirama who creates a wood clone before Jubito blitzes him? Or expect Minato's poor tiny Rasengan or summons doing anything on Hashirama's endless Mokuton? Or expect Minato is outlasting a stamina monster who still has SM?

And sorry, Minato's movement speed = V2 Ay is completely horrible, and stating Minato will escape from the battlefield which equals losing.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

you forget that he can teleported Hashi's wood as well. He said he wants to teleport obito's tree after all. @.@


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> NO, just NO......
> 
> Hashirama is better than everyone else except Madara (arguably) / Jubito in either portrayal or feats, Minato is FAR from him.
> You expect Minato to blitz Hashirama who creates a wood clone before Jubito blitzes him?



WTF are you talking about? hashirama did no use a replacement jutsu with clone LMAO!!! read the manga for the love of god...

Minato with his speed, time space hax and summons can easily take on EMS madara or SM hashirama.

FIRST: minato can either reverse summon away perfect susanoo or madara inside perfect susanoo, thus that advantage is nullified. And with his speed, tsukuyomi or Amaterasu will never catch him.
Not to mention that minato can easily take away control of the Kyuubi wiht his contract breaking Jutsu which would have kurama attacing madara due to his hate for him.
 so how could Minato not BEAT EMS madara without the ability to effectively use ANY of his MS abilities or the kyuubi at all? Make no sense...

SECOND:
Minato's has tags all over the fire country and other countries form previous battles and since they never disappear. His range for teleporting is Huge, thus SM hashirama's scale of attack with even the Buddha summon will not be enough to catch minato.
And since MInato's speed is WAY too much for hashirama to possibly catch with his slow ass attacks in comparison and is unable to possibly track much less defend against minato's Literally INSTANT Speed.

: Coupled with the use of many kage bushin that can ALL move just as fast and do exactly what the real minato can,
:  time space barrier to seal away mokuton attacks and even redirect them using hiraishin level 1 or 2.
: 3 boss summons, each  the size of the Kyuubi that can ALL use senjutsu attacks, 
: And even the 2 sage toads fukasaku and shima to use all their powerful abilities including frog song that would own hashirama...

CONCLUSION:
Minato's physical speed/reflexes that are>>Hashirama's coupled with his hiraishin 1.2 and 3 make minato so fast that hashirama's huge, powerful attacks CANNOT Possibly HIT HIM, therefore, are completely useless as a nerf gun without the ability to catch minato, ALL while not being able to TRACK Minato's movements, thus DEFEND against Minato;s ATTACKS Too...

And since a KUNAi is enough to kill hashirama as proven by him with his suicide attempt. How can Hashirama BEAT Minato without the ability to even hit him or defend against his ATTACKS?

Makes no sense!!!

You must realize that when it comes to striking which almost ALL Ninjutsu/taijutsu is. SPEED>Power/Strength all day everyday.

Minato Can Beat Hashirama due to these FACTS... It just makes no sense for Even SM Hashirama to be able to beat someone he cannot possibly even Hit while not even being able to defend against minato's attacks due to their instant speed.

*Due to the super speed advantage Minato has over even SM hashirama coupled with the FACT a Kunai is enough to kill him... This is the most likely scenario for their fight.*


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> WTF are you talking about? hashirama did no use a replacement jutsu with clone LMAO!!! read the manga for the love of god...
> 
> Minato with his speed, time space hax and summons can easily take on EMS madara or SM hashirama.
> 
> ...



And I suggest you to do the same as well.
5

Stop typing fallacies since when is Susanoo a summoning? Others are nonsense when saying tagging on Madara is so easy.

Sorry, 1 Buddha >> All Minato can offer. Surprisingly he S/T away all Hashirama's jutsu, he becomes a dead man because of 0 chakra left. While I don't see why Hashirama can't simply rape Minato as a baby by spreading pollens to him. And WAT? Do I just read that Minato admits Auto-defeated by escaping far away from the battlefield?

Get out now, Minato wanker. This is horrible.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2013)

A-lot of OP's stuff is an overestimation of Minato. With that said Minato having a chance to beat Hashirama has been made less and less outlandish due to the recent chapters. The fact that Yin Kurama is willing to cooperate with Minato makes Minato being able to enter BM completely possible and I could see BM Minato giving Hashirama one hell of a fight as well as having the potential to possibly pull off a win, especially if Hashirama doesn't have knowledge of Minato, but Minato has knowledge of him, which seems to be the case here. Granted I still favor Hashirama's odds due to the time-limit of BM and the fact that it's not like Minato has the full kyuubi's power at his disposal just the Yin Half, and Hashi's Bijuu suppression/chakra absorption powers are ideal to fight an enemy such as KCM/BM Minato.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 22, 2013)

Why are you forcing your opinion on other people, if you want people to discuss about this match up, you didn't have to write tl;dr post as your OP.

Base Minato is slower than Raikage which is why he had to use Hirashin to dodge V2 attack.
Minato lacks offensive power, rasengan is not doing anything to Hashirama when he can heal himself instantly without the need of using seals.
Hashirama has knowledge of Hirashin, so he will figure out Minato after he uses Hirashin once
This match will end with Base Hashirama. Nothing Minato has will force Hashirama to use Sage Mode. Hashirama's large scale jutsu automatically destroys Minato's Kunai's. The Kyuubi can be restrained by Mokuton Jutsu. There is absolutely no way Minato can beat base Hashirama. He gets destroyed. 

This latest chapter heavily implied that Hashirama > Jubito due to Sage Mode. Minato even with Edo Tensei body, Tobirama's/KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke help and KCM mode is struggling to land one hit on Jubito.

@Turrin: Hashirama beat 100% Kyubi + Perfect Susano!!!! You think Minato with 50% Kyubi could defeat Hashirama?


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## puma21 (Aug 22, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> And I suggest you to do the same as well.
> 5
> 
> Stop typing fallacies since when is Susanoo a summoning? Others are nonsense when saying tagging on Madara is so easy.
> ...



Minato can warp the Buddah just like he warped away a charged Juubi dama without any issues. Also Minato's running on kyuubi chakra on top of his own fairly large reserves so running out of chakra here isn't a realistic outcome.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> This latest chapter heavily implied that Hashirama > Jubito due to Sage Mode. Minato even with Edo Tensei body, Tobirama's/KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke help and KCM mode is struggling to land one hit on Jubito.
> 
> @Turrin: Hashirama beat 100% Kyubi + Perfect Susano!!!! You think Minato with 50% Kyubi could defeat Hashirama?



Oh please Minato being above Jubito is rubbish, sm just means it's possible for Obito to be hurt not a guaranteed win for a sm user.  You could also say Minato in base beat 100% kyuubi + Obito while protecting the village and being caught off guard instead of prepared for battle like Hashirama.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

puma21 said:


> Minato can warp the Buddah just like he warped away a charged Juubi dama without any issues. Also Minato's running on kyuubi chakra on top of his own fairly large reserves so running out of chakra here isn't a realistic outcome.



And OP never states that he possesses Yin Kurama chakra.

I don't see that's easy, given that the Buddha size is a bit larger than the Bijuudama IIRC. Wrapping that away costs him a great amount of chakra without Edo. And Hashirama's woods and gates always love facing Bijuu as toys.


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## Dominus (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama won't die from a stab.


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## puma21 (Aug 22, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> And OP never states that he possesses Yin Kurama chakra.
> 
> I don't see that's easy, given that the Buddha size is a bit larger than the Bijuudama IIRC. And Hashirama's woods and gates always love facing Bijuu as toys.



I'm not sure if it's kcm or not, i'm assuming it is as he said all abilites for both of them.

For the size of the bijuudama, it's a large as the Juubi's body initially  and continued to get larger. I'm assuming is in the Buddaha's range, comparing it to how large it is comparing it to when the 8 tails was barely as large as it's had. 

Good thing Minato's not a bijuu and I highly doubt he's getting touched by the gates with his shushin and ftg.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> And I suggest you to do the same as well.
> initially
> 
> Stop typing fallacies since when is Susanoo a summoning? Others are nonsense when saying tagging on Madara is so easy.
> ...



!) All you did was post his CLONE getting wrecked becuase the real hashirama was HERE all along, so yes, learn to read...
initially 

2). Never said Susanoo is a Summoning, WTF!!! Keep proving you CANNOT read why don't ya...

3). I bet money you would not know a fallacy if it hit you in the jewels...

4). Minato doe snot have to teleport anything away when he can simply use his speed to get to hashirama on his buddha summon.
And since* ALL minato has to do is TOUCH you and you are done.* Hashirama with his level of speed and reflexes cannot keep minato from tagging him then beating him. NO WAY!!!

5). I am not wanking minato, I am being realistc about what he is capable of VS hashirama... Meanwhile you clearly cannot even read yet expect to be able to understand what Minato or hashirama are actually capable of... LMAO...



Turrin said:


> A-lot of OP's stuff is an overestimation of Minato. With that said Minato having a chance to beat Hashirama has been made less and less outlandish due to the recent chapters. The fact that Yin Kurama is willing to cooperate with Minato makes Minato being able to enter BM completely possible and I could see BM Minato giving Hashirama one hell of a fight as well as having the potential to possibly pull off a win, especially if Hashirama doesn't have knowledge of Minato, but Minato has knowledge of him, which seems to be the case here. Granted I still favor Hashirama's odds due to the time-limit of BM and the fact that it's not like Minato has the full kyuubi's power at his disposal just the Yin Half, and Hashi's Bijuu suppression/chakra absorption powers are ideal to fight an enemy such as KCM/BM Minato.



What is an overestimation? I see you making a baseless claim without ANY evidence to support it turrin. At least give me an example so I can try to argue it. When you just make claims, you are showing you have no basis for the argument beyond your own opinion.

And How can minato NOT Beat even SM Hashirama when all minato has to do is TOUCH YOU, Your tagged and then can instantly defeat you since a Kunai was proven to be enough to kill hashirama already. And Minato can easily cut hashirama to pieces with his strength and Kunai skills as shown with Killer B's Tentacle...


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

puma21 said:


> I'm not sure if it's kcm or not, i'm assuming it is as he said all abilites for both of them.
> 
> For the size of the bijuudama, it's a large as the Juubi's body initially  and continued to get larger. I'm assuming is in the Buddaha's range, comparing it to how large it is comparing it to when the 8 tails was barely as large as it's had.
> 
> Good thing Minato's not a bijuu and I highly doubt he's getting touched by the gates with his shushin and ftg.



Oh, I see. Although I still doubt S/T Barrier can teleport away non-projectile when Hashirama can simply stop that before it reaches.

Jubito at start is locked by those gates as well in high speed considering Jubito's reaction and speed, I don't see why Minato won't fall into the same trick when Hashirama can casually spam that jutsu while Minato can't Shunshin endlessly as he wants. Moreover, Minato seems not utilizing KCM abilities fully since what he shows so far can all be performed when he's alive, or he should've use chakra arms to save Naruto/Sasuke instead of Naruto using them to attach Minato.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 22, 2013)

puma21 said:


> Oh please Minato being above Jubito is rubbish, sm just means it's possible for Obito to be hurt not a guaranteed win for a sm user.  You could also say Minato in base beat 100% kyuubi + Obito while protecting the village and being caught off guard instead of prepared for battle like Hashirama.



Hiruzen + Whole Village + Kushina helped Minato *DRAW *with Obito + Kyubi. 


If Kushina did not hold Kyubi with the chains, Minato would have never been able to defeat him.
If Hiruzen and the Konoha villagers did not keep Kyuubi busy, Minato would have never been able to defeat Obito.
Minato never faced Obito + Kyubi. He faced one of them at a time.

Give credits were its due, this chapter heavily implied Hashirama > Jubito. Minato with help from Tobirama/BM Naruto/EMS Sasuke and with Edo Body and with 50% Kyuubi chakra is struggling to land one hit on Jubito.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

about the size


The red one is the size of the 10tails, see those small things inside? 
They are Hashi's seals which suppressed the 10tails. 

the orange one is the PS & Hashi's human wood

the blue one is obito's tree. 

Now,
initially 

The TBB here is if not bigger than the 10tails' body (without the tails) it's as big
initially 

here after it charges it, the TBB became even bigger than the 10tails, who's MUCH bigger than
the PS.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Hashirama won't die from a stab.



he will, that's canon from his flashback.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> @Turrin: Hashirama beat 100% Kyubi + Perfect Susano!!!! You think Minato with 50% Kyubi could defeat Hashirama?


Have a chance yes, have good odds, well I think I made it explicitly clear in my post that the answer to that is no. 

The conditions of the match are not the same. Hashirama and Madara both had a-lot of knowledge of thee other's fighting style, while if i'm understanding the opening correctly Hashirama is brought back with no knowledge of Minato, not even the fact that he was Yondaime Hokage, while Minato would have a-lot of knowledge of Hashirama as he predecessor. This puts Minato in much more advantaged position than Madara was ever in when fighting Hashirama at VOTE. 

Minato also is not Madara and thus brings a completely different set of Jutsu he can combo with Yin Kyuubi's power to the table than Madara did. Minato's FTG empowered with Yin Kurama's Chakra would allow Minato to teleport away Hashirama's Mokuton constructs w/o quickly running out of chakra as he would in Base, with that amount of chakra even teleporting away Hashirama's Buddha is not inconceivable. Additionally between the speed of FTG, BM, and this new found chakra allowing him to absolutely spam KB, hitting the guy will prove much more difficult than it did hitting Madara's-Susano'o-Kyuubi-Gundam. Finally with Yin Kyuubi chakra empowering his Jutsu he certainly has the fire power to take down Hashirama despite whatever regen he had had and Bijuu Bombs are also possible which could blow through a number of Hashirama's Mokuton defenses.

Summoning Fusaku and Shima to use their Sound Jutsu would also give Minato another way to circumvent Hashirama's defenses and get around his Moku Bushin due to their AOE effect. Minato also has the same ability as Naruto to hand out Kyuubi chakra empowering his allies, which would work wonders with the Toads he has access to through Kuchiyose. Kyuubi Chakra empowered Bunta, Hiro, Ken, Kichi, and probably Tatsu could most certainly take on a number of Mokuton techniques successfully, wood dragon, &/or golem. 

Than there is Shiki Fuujin to force a draw, which when used through numerous KB would certainly have a chance to corner and soul rip Hashirama.

The main problem is were talking the absolute upper limit of Minato's capabilities here and even if Minato were to utilize everything this well he'd likely wear himself thin much quicker than Hashirama would.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Flower tree world minato looses 
Even if he FTG out of the battle field he can't come back to it without inhaling pollen. Summoning simply means hashirama keeps on with wood spam while littering the field with pollen eventually minato falls


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> !) All you did was post his CLONE getting wrecked becuase the real hashirama was HERE all along, so yes, learn to read...
> initially
> 
> 2). Never said Susanoo is a Summoning, WTF!!! Keep proving you CANNOT read why don't ya...
> ...



I think you can't understand that the real Hashirama comes along with Tobirama dodged Jubito's blitz with a wood clone before getting hit, while Tobirama fails......and what tells you that it's not another clone when Hashirama shows his clone in this chapter?

Yeah, glad you agree that Susanoo can't be reversed summoned when it's not summoning.

Oh, but you ARE wanking Minato. By that logic, SO6P will be defeated by Minato because what Minato has to do is TOUCH HIM, SO6P lacks FTG to save him from Minato's speed and 1 Kunai slash is enough to take down the god.......

Minato >> SO6P, confirmed.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Flower tree world minato looses
> Even if he FTG out of the battle field he can't come back to it without inhaling pollen. Summoning simply means hashirama keeps on with wood spam while littering the field with pollen eventually minato falls



he can teleport the trees. 
this


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## Rain (Aug 22, 2013)

Feat-wise, Minato blitzes with a rasengan.

Portrayal/hype Minato stands absolutely no chance.

Hashirama is a fighter on a whole different level, but if we judge this match (wrongly) by feats he will get destroyed because he hasn't shown needed reactions to keep track of Minato.


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## puma21 (Aug 22, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Oh, I see. Although I still doubt S/T Barrier can teleport away non-projectile when Hashirama can simply stop that before it reaches.
> 
> Jubito at start is locked by those gates as well in high speed considering Jubito's reaction and speed, I don't see why Minato won't fall into the same trick when Hashirama can casually spam that jutsu while Minato can't Shunshin endlessly as he wants.



He has no problem warping anything as long as his chakra is connected in someway. 

It's a giant gate falling from the sky, Minato has plenty of time to avoid. I also you've got it the wrong way around, Minato can probably pull off ftg a lot more times than Hashirama can spam that gate. Don't forget Minato can also make clones, so whilst Hashirama is spamming it, he can have a clone attack Hashirama.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama only needs 1 seal for flower tree world 
Nothing suggests minato can tag him before he forms 1 seal

It goes like this minato based on hype attempts to use his yet unseen technique . So he spreads kunai hashirama. Counters with flower tree world from there it's downhill . Also minato can't use a kunai to kill tsunade so how exactly can he use a kunai to kill hashirama ? Rasegan also won't do shit to hashirama. Obito with a little bit of hashirama ability healed from rasegan twice


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## Dominus (Aug 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> he will, that's canon from his flashback.



That's because he wanted to commit suicide, this time he won't take off his armor and don't forget that Hashirama can heal himself without forming seals. His wood techniques are enormous, Minato won't get close to him easily.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Why are you forcing your opinion on other people, if you want people to discuss about this match up, you didn't have to write tl;dr post as your OP.
> 
> Base Minato is slower than Raikage which is why he had to use Hirashin to dodge V2 attack.
> Minato lacks offensive power, rasengan is not doing anything to Hashirama when he can heal himself instantly without the need of using seals.
> ...



1), Minato's reflexes allowed him to track and react to V2 raikage's FASTESt attack MANY TIMES as well as physically move the arms, legs and whole body a couple of times as well in the INSTANT it takes V2 raikage to shushin only a COUPLE FEET so tell me how Minato cannot move as fast as V2 raikage physically when he already proved it by his counter attack against V2 riakage's attack here.


2). Hashirama PROVED himself he can be killed by a Kunai here:
this 
 and coupled with the FACT that minato can easily cut hashirama's head off, torse, ect with his strength and Kunai skills. Shown by not just cutting the hacihbi tentacle in half, but smashing it into the ground so hard when he cut it, it created a large indention like a small crater...
So having not the strongets detructive force does not matter when a KUNAI is enough easily.

Not to mention Mianto can use hiriashin level 3 to insatntly redirect hashirama's OWN attacks back onto him. Drawing them into his t/s barrier then teleporting them directly abck onto him by using hiraishin level 2 with a thrown Kunai or level 1 after he is tagged.

3). HOW in the FRACKING word can you CLAIM that SM Hashirama> Current Juubito despite the FACT that Hashiram aalready admitted himself confirming that Hashirama himself<Imperfect Juubito wich is much weaker then the current LMAO...
SHonw here:


And that is the Same level of Juubito that Minato easily TANKED a speed spin kick as well as his clone too. Did not even need to use the Hiraishin lol...


4). Base Minato is already too much for hashirama with his speed so HOW in the world could hashirama take on YIN Kyuubi powered Minato which would be WAY WAY faster which is CRAZY and have the destructive power of BM naruto as well making SM ahshirama not even a MATCH for KBM Minato. FACT!!!




Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Hashirama won't die from a stab.



Manga disagrees!!!! SHOWN HERE by his own action:this 

How can a KUNAI NOT Kill Hashriama if it was going to be HOW Hashirama KILLED Himself? Your conclusion makes no sense...


Icegaze said:


> Hashirama only needs 1 seal for flower tree world
> Nothing suggests minato can tag him before he forms 1 seal



Your serious??? LMAO!!! Minato threw a Kunai to the sea form the current battle field in just a couple second and can use Hiraishin level 2 with that same Kunai speed along with a shushin that is compared to V2 raikage;s so how cna minato NOT move faster then hashriama cna form a seal, much less the time it takes for that technique to work...

NOT to mention that the kage's EASILY avoided ALL of the mokuton jutsu Madara used Lol so how in the world would minato with his speed possibly ever be hit by such allow attacks?



Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> That's because he wanted to commit suicide, this time he won't take off his armor and don't forget that Hashirama can heal himself without forming seals. His wood techniques are enormous, Minato won't get close to him easily.



Hashirama proved himself he can be killed by a kunai even with instant regeneration so canon is canon!!!

Size of technique does not matter when Mianto can move instantly between ANY distance and he has tags all over the fire country as well as others to use for defense against large scale attacks.

And Minato's physical speed/reflexes for his super fast shushin and his Kunai throwing speed would make it allot easier to get close to hashirama then you think.

And do not forget... *ALL MINATO HAS TO DO IT TOUCH HASHIRAMA AND HE IS DONE DUE TO HIRAISHIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
And since it is IMPOSSIBLE for hashirama to NOT be touched through out the entire fight while actually being able to hit mInato with his slow as attacks... How can Minato NOT WIN???

The manga makes it obvious that his speed is just too overwhelming for anyone that is not current Juubito level obviously.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Hashirama only needs 1 seal for flower tree world
> Nothing suggests minato can tag him before he forms 1 seal



FTG, and his speed don't even need a single seal. 



Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> That's because he wanted to commit suicide, this time he won't take off his armor and don't forget that Hashirama can heal himself without forming seals. His wood techniques are enormous, Minato won't get close to him easily.



O.K, if Minato marked Hashi what stop him from attacking him every time whenever he wants? 
or what if he cut his head off? 

and please don't tell me Minato can't touch Hashi because that's just stupid.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

puma21 said:


> He has no problem warping anything as long as his chakra is connected in someway.
> 
> It's a giant gate falling from the sky, Minato has plenty of time to avoid. I also you've got it the wrong way around, Minato can probably pull off ftg a lot more times than Hashirama can spam that gate. Don't forget Minato can also make clones, so whilst Hashirama is spamming it, he can have a clone attack Hashirama.



Hmm, comes to agree or disagree since I don't think Minato can completely avoid those Giant Gates with FTG alone when Jubito fails, though I get your point.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> FTG, and his speed don't even need a single seal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato needs to throw a kunai close to hashirama in the time it takes minato to throw a kunai and for the kunai to travel toward hashirama he would have formed the 1 seal he needs


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## Dominus (Aug 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> O.K, if Minato marked Hashi what stop him from attacking him every time whenever he wants?
> or what if he cut his head off?
> 
> and please don't tell me Minato can't touch Hashi because that's just stupid.



Yeah, if he marks him.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Hashirama only needs 1 seal for flower tree world
> Nothing suggests minato can tag him before he forms 1 seal
> 
> It goes like this minato based on hype attempts to use his yet unseen technique . So he spreads kunai hashirama. Counters with flower tree world from there it's downhill . Also minato can't use a kunai to kill tsunade so how exactly can he use a kunai to kill hashirama ? Rasegan also won't do shit to hashirama. Obito with a little bit of hashirama ability healed from rasegan twice



Again hashiram aproved himself a KUNAI can Kill him... read the manga...
this 



Legendary Itachi said:


> Hmm, comes to agree or disagree since I don't think Minato can completely avoid those Giant Gates with FTG alone when Jubito fails, though I get your point.



Lol, since when did previous level imperfect juubito even try to dodge that gate that hit him? And how would one of those slow ass things possibly even touch minato Lol?

Again, ALL MINATO HAS TO DO IS TOUCH HASHIRAMA AND HE WINS DUE TO HIRAISHIN AND THE FACT A KUNAI CAN KILL HIM. Not even factoring in his spiral flash ring dance howl attack which I predicted is 6 clones hitting the enemy with six different rasengans simultaneously form all six sides which would create a utterly HUGE amount of damage.

So How could Minato NOT win is a better question...


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 22, 2013)

minato charges at hashirama.
hashirama uses the flower world.
minato is crushed under the forest.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Again hashiram aproved himself a KUNAI can Kill him... read the manga...
> this
> 
> 
> ...



 of course a kunai dnt b a fool. That's if he chooses not to heal the damage . What's stopping him from doing that ? he isn't attempting to commit suicide here .  Ei is fractions slower than minato am guessing you think Ei beats hashirama as well right 
 . Speed isn't everything. Juubito is slower than minsto you don't see minato trolling juubito 
Tobirama even said his continuous teleporting behind juubito would get him killed . Minato only has so many options . Eventually hashirama would predict his movements. minato cannot kill hashirama.


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## eyeknockout (Aug 22, 2013)

base hashirama chokes him with his wood


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> minato charges at hashirama.
> hashirama uses the flower world.
> minato is crushed under the forest.



Minato teleported it away. 


> Minato needs to throw a kunai close to hashirama in the time it takes minato to throw a kunai and for the kunai to travel toward hashirama he would have formed the 1 seal he needs



Minato base speed is MUCH greater than Hashi, reread the chapter when they arrived. 
1- Minato putted a Kanui at that rock
2- he arrived
3- teleported the TBB
4- Putted tha Kanuis around the 10tails
5- having a chat with his son

then Hashi is there! I think the GAP in speed is clear. 
and that was base Minato!


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Minato teleported it away.
> 
> 
> Minato base speed is MUCH greater than Hashi, reread the chapter when they arrived.
> ...



I thought he arrived earlier because of FTG Kunais (better Shunshin/FTG) according to Tobirama?

And teleporting a forest requires quite a long time.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Minato is faster no debate however hashirama can turn the battlefield into a pollen forest and fight minato with 50 clones for sport.  Wood clones don't dissipate , minato would never reach hashirama


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## ? (Aug 22, 2013)

Minato gets stomped. Flower Tree World wrecks him. His only way of surviving is running away from the battlefield. The only way he might kill Hahsirama is with Shiki Fuujin, but even that will likely  fail because of Hashirama's tricky use of Mokuton Bunshins. Rasengans and Kunai's are not enough to kill Hashirama. Aside from feats, Hashirama is portrayed to be the strongest ninja in the alliance.

Hashirama wins 9/10. The only reason it's not 10/10 is because of the small chance of a draw because of Shiki Fuujin.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama wins 11/10
Being fast isn't everything otherwise Ei would be top 5 strongest yet the likes of hashirama and madara lol troll him 
We already saw madara could tag Ei when using 5 clones . What stops hashirama from Making 25 clones who can heal from minato attacks ?


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 22, 2013)

The amount of Minato wanking in this thread is just flat out sickening.

Do people seriously still think Itachi is the most overrated character? Let me tell you going by this he sure as hell isn't.

1. Hashirama won't die from a stab. Of course he can kill himself with a kunai, he can control his regeneration moron. You do realize that is like saying Tsunade can die from a kunai stab right? Of course she can, if she's not regenerating. Oh and by the way Madara confirmed Hashirama has an even better healing factor than Tsunade. 

2. Hashirama has way more stamina than non-edo Minato. He fought Madara for a whole god damn day and was still standing. 

3. Hashirama has plenty of wide range attacks to kill Minato, who relies on precision, focused attacks.

4. Hashirama is way more durable than Minato

5. Hashirama isn't getting blitzed so easy. Yes, Minato is faster, even when not teleporting. Really though, it's been demonstrated many times that to easily blitz someone you need to be *much* faster. Hashirama is pretty fast, especially when he's using his *senjutsu*. Minato can't just run circles around him. 

The shit on why Hashirama > Minato just keeps piling up.

Yes, I was a bit of a dick with my previous words, but seriously fan wanking is one of my greatest pet peeves. Only 2 people can without a doubt beat Hashirama. Rikkudo Senin, and Juubito. Madara may or may not we'll have to see how their battle turns out. (Would not be surprised if it doesn't have a definitive answer)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Just beating '100% Kurama' doesn't mean that Hashirama is completely superior to Minato who just has the Yin Half. Jinchuriki are stronger than the beasts themselves since they can focus the power while the beasts just throw it around randomly. Case in point: 

Biju Mode Naruto Bijudama:
As big as Gyuki's entire fucking body and that's a CASUAL one from BM Naruto.
BM Naruto equalling the power of five Biju at once.

'100% Kurama':
As big as Kurama's Mouth 
As shown here.
And here.

Not saying who'd win, but its not as cut and dry. Hashirama honestly should be able to pull of a majority of wins but it's not out of the question that Minato can't score a few wins as well. 100% Kurama would be weaker without his Jinchuriki who can focus and mold his power more effectively, after all.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 22, 2013)

People actually seriously believe Minato can beat him or stand a chance against him. That shows Minato is way overrated than Itachi. When people say Itachi > Hashirama, they are obviously joking and are using the quote as their reference. 

Hashirama beat Perfect Susano combined with 100% Kyuubi.



Minato stands no chance against Base Hashirama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Hashirama beat Perfect Susano combined with 100% Kyuubi.
> 
> 
> 
> Minato stands no chance against Base Hashirama.


Susano'o clad Kurama was still throwing around the unfocused power that Kurama had. Again, its not cut and dry at all.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama kills him with simple punch.


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## Jagger (Aug 22, 2013)

So many assumptions on this thread to give a proper winner. Besides, it's obvious by portrayal and hype Hashirama should curbstomp Minato all day and night. FTG is overrated, very overrated. Sure, you can jump around, but you're fighting against an enemy that can easily change the landscape in a few seconds, no matter where Minato goes, he will be surrounded. Teleporing the whole forest away? I honestly doubt so since it's something that is literally on the whole area, so are you telling he can take all that away.

Imagine Madara's Jukai Koutan much times bigger and stronger coming from all directions, how can Minato teleport all that?


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## Ƶero (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama is stronger but he can never touch Minato. If Minato can warp away a Juubi bomb then he can warp away Shinsuusenju. We know Minato is definitely faster since he got to the battlefield way before the other hokages and even left a Kunai in the middle of the freakin ocean while he was at it.

A lot of power whores in this thread but power doesnt matter when you can't hit your opponent. It took RS in control Juubito to even touch Minato any less than that and you can't do it. If Minato goes for the kill right at the start when Hashirama can't set up then he dies to a Kunai, it's canon that Kunai>Hashirama and no one has shown more striking power than Minato. If Hashirama manages to defend himself with his wood before the fight then they'll be at a stalemate since neither can get each other.


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 22, 2013)

Yeah. Hashi isn't touching Minato.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Hashirama is stronger but he can never touch Minato. If Minato can warp away a Juubi bomb then he can warp away Shinsuusenju. We know Minato is definitely faster since he got to the battlefield way before the other hokages and even left a Kunai in the middle of the freakin ocean while he was at it.
> 
> A lot of power whores in this thread but power doesnt matter when you can't hit your opponent. It took RS in control Juubito to even touch Minato any less than that and you can't do it. If Minato goes for the kill right at the start when Hashirama can't set up then he dies to a Kunai, it's canon that Kunai>Hashirama and no one has shown more striking power than Minato. If Hashirama manages to defend himself with his wood before the fight then they'll be at a stalemate since neither can get each other.



 :fapfap
We got one here !! Kunai is also>>than minato however minato can't regen like hashirama 
flower tree world GG minato can choose to teleport the forest if that's possible but how would he know to do that ?? he is more likely to try avoidin it just to end up Inhaling pollen . Also hashirama can simply use clones to pawn minato

With your fail logic some might believe u think Ei would even slightly trouble hashirama. Ei is only slower than minato by a small margin . Also it doesn't take being juubito to tag minato. Minato had only been in 2 fights shown on manga. One of them killer bee stale mated him .


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashi winning is undoubtedly true, but Minato is a pain in the ass for anyone to kill. After a while, Hashirama, will just go FUCK IT and flatten the landscape, and Minato along with it.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o clad Kurama was still throwing around the unfocused power that Kurama had. Again, its not cut and dry at all.



where are you getting this unfocused nonsense from? bee was surprised that the juubis jinchuriki showed greater power than the juubi himself.



bee wouldnt have shown such surprise over a jinchuriki being stronger than the biju if it that was always the case for any jinchuriki. the only biju that can have its powers enhanced by being sealed inside a host is the juubi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> That's quite false it's been clearly stated a bijuu can't control it's powers properly and just randomly fires out bursts of chakra . however madara was controlling kyuubi so kyuubi wasn't randomly firing out attacks . in any case hashi walks over minato corpse . Being fast isn't everything . In 1 move the landscape can b a dense forest . We already seen from zetsu that hashirama can become one with said forest . Also his darkness genjutsu trolls minato . The 3rd didn't even attempt breaking it . That should say something


...Hashirama doesn't have the Mayfly technique. That's unique to Zetsu. 

Madara was controlling Kurama and having him throw his power around randomly. He didn't even attempt any Bijudama bigger than the standard, or even using some roars or even chakra transfer to keep going.

You're kind of bashing Minato at this point.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It was said to be in general, Jinchuriki are stronger than their beasts if they can fully control it ever since the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. We see this best when Obito focuses all of the Jyubi's power instead of randomly throwing it around-even Bee said that.


they never said that jinchuriki were physically stronger. deidara said that biju didnt have the intelligence to fully utilize their power or something along those lines. i cant remember. the only way a jinchuriki is greater than the biju(except in the case of the juubi) is that they can strategize with the bijus power and effectively use it better.


> And look: Kurama when used by Naruto tosses around casual Gyuki sized Bijudamas. 100% Kurama when used by Madara tosses around Bijudamas the size of its jaw/head. See the difference?



*"casual Gyuki sized Bijudamas."*

the fact that naruto requested bees help to cover him while he charged it up doesnt imply that a bijudama of that size is 'casual'.


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## Ƶero (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> :fapfap
> We got one here !! Kunai is also>>than minato however minato can't regen like hashirama
> flower tree world GG minato can choose to teleport the forest if that's possible but how would he know to do that ?? he is more likely to try avoidin it just to end up Inhaling pollen . Also hashirama can simply use clones to pawn minato
> 
> With your fail logic some might believe u think Ei would even slightly trouble hashirama. Ei is only slower than minato by a small margin . Also it doesn't take being juubito to tag minato. Minato had only been in 2 fights shown on manga. One of them killer bee stale mated him .



I hope Hashirama can regen a new head.
Yes Minato has hay fever so he will lose to pollen. Good joke 

Minato has never been touched in a fight by anyone until Juubito and that was an in control Juubito that could only take an arm, not a mindless one that ripped Tobirama in half. A has also never touched Minato and he was the fastest after Minato died.

Bee never stalemated Minato. Minato couldve killed Bee straight away by warping to another side of him but he didn't have the intent. He just held his kunai there and started giving life lessons while A and Bee were both sweating and shitting their pants.

This battle however is a stalemate if Hashirama manages to prep his wood before the fight since neither can get to each other.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> they never said that jinchuriki were physically stronger. deidara said that biju didnt have the intelligence to fully utilize their power or something along those lines. i cant remember. the only way a jinchuriki is greater than the biju(except in the case of the juubi) is that they can strategize with the bijus power and effectively use it better.


Look at Gyuki and Bee, Bee uses Gyuki's power more effectively than Gyuki alone.



> *"casual Gyuki sized Bijudamas."*
> 
> the fact that naruto requested bees help to cover him while he charged it up doesnt imply that a bijudama of that size is 'casual'.


The covering was for the Kage Bushin Kamui strategy. And Naruto charged up the Gyuki sized Bijudama quite quickly.

And Naruto already demonstrated a casual giant Bijudama on his very first usage.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Look at Gyuki and Bee, Bee uses Gyuki's power more effectively than Gyuki alone.


yes, but the power itself that bee is utilizing isnt greater than what the hachibi had prior to being sealed.



> The covering was for the Kage Bushin Kamui strategy. And Naruto charged up the Gyuki sized Bijudama quite quickly.


i really hope that this is a joke. this is blatant dishonesty. bee explicitly says in this panel to the original naruto(the one who made the bijudama),_ "OK, come! I'll shield you!!"_. 

a few pages later, the same naruto who bee stated that he would shield launched a bijudama.

its the same naruto as he is right next to bee. bee shielded naruto in order for him to make a bijudama that large. anything else is fanfiction.




> And Naruto already demonstrated a casual giant Bijudama on his very first usage.


the kyuubi used the same bijudama.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Hashirama doesn't have the Mayfly technique. That's unique to Zetsu.
> 
> Madara was controlling Kurama and having him throw his power around randomly. He didn't even attempt any Bijudama bigger than the standard, or even using some roars or even chakra transfer to keep going.
> 
> You're kind of bashing Minato at this point.



common!! We have seen Yamato merge with trees but somehow it's the original user of the technique from which all derivatives where formed who can't merge with trees ???

madara was controlling kyuubi without being its Jin. kyuubi was his summon 
he controlled kyuubi as he pleased . Kyuubi firing off smaller bijjudans make sense the larger ones take more charge time which madara couldn't afford


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> common!! We have seen Yamato merge with trees but somehow it's the original user of the technique from which all derivatives where formed who can't merge with trees ???


Yamato's only merged with trees in the anime. The Mayfly Technique is unique to Zetsu, no one else.


> madara was controlling kyuubi without being its Jin. kyuubi was his summon
> he controlled kyuubi as he pleased . Kyuubi firing off smaller bijjudans make sense the larger ones take more charge time which madara couldn't afford


Or Madara couldn't control Kurama's full power, only use the wild one we've seen. Large Bijudamas can charge up quickly, look at BM Naruto vs Jin Paths or Naruto vs Tobi.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yamato's only merged with trees in the anime. The Mayfly Technique is unique to Zetsu, no one else.
> 
> Or Madara couldn't control Kurama's full power, only use the wild one we've seen. Large Bijudamas can charge up quickly, look at BM Naruto vs Jin Paths or Naruto vs Tobi.



You call the bijjudama naruto used against the jins quick? 
 ok . it clearly wasn't 

So are you saying hashirama can't merge with trees ?? Despite him creating wood clones from his person ? hmmmm  
Zetsu is just hashirama cells no addition . I find it hard to believe hashirama can't pull that off.


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## ueharakk (Aug 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> If Minato can warp away a Juubi bomb then he can warp away Shinsuusenju.
> .



I don't know about that anymore.  We're given scale of the juubi last chapter compared to PS/Mokujin and it's not close to the size of shinsuusenjuu unless kishi is playing extremely inconsistent with sizes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> You call the bijjudama naruto used against the jins quick?
> ok . it clearly wasn't


It took two panels, seems quick to me.


> So are you saying hashirama can't merge with trees ?? Despite him creating wood clones from his person ? hmmmm
> Zetsu is just hashirama cells no addition . I find it hard to believe hashirama can't pull that off.


Unless he shows it, you can't claim it.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Hashirama is stronger but he can never touch Minato. If Minato can warp away a Juubi bomb then he can warp away Shinsuusenju. We know Minato is definitely faster since he got to the battlefield way before the other hokages and even left a Kunai in the middle of the freakin ocean while he was at it.
> 
> A lot of power whores in this thread but power doesnt matter when you can't hit your opponent. It took RS in control Juubito to even touch Minato any less than that and you can't do it. If Minato goes for the kill right at the start when Hashirama can't set up then he dies to a Kunai, it's canon that Kunai>Hashirama and no one has shown more striking power than Minato. If Hashirama manages to defend himself with his wood before the fight then they'll be at a stalemate since neither can get each other.



1. To claim that it is clear that a kunai kills Hashirama neglects the fact that Hashirama can regenerate. Hashirama was wielding that kunai himself, which opens the possibility that he (1) was not going to use his regeneration willingly so he could die or (2) he had not acquired regeneration jutsu at that time. We have seen Tsunade impaled in the heart region and survive, she can't be inferior to Hashirama with regards to regeneration if she is regenerating from stuff that would kill him
2. Hashirama can EASILY touch Minato. You guys are not very familiar with his powers. Hashirama has the ability to place clones (his own cells) on an oppoent in the form of seeds. These seeds cannot be sensed and he could even time delay them as Zetsu did against the kages. Minato would not know that he has shodai clones on him. Tobi had Zetsu put six clones on Sasuke and Sasuke never knew. Once Minato has a clone on him, he would be hard pressed to hit shodai with hiraishin and shodai can just restrict him with a clone and drain his chakra with mokuton or restrict him and use a kunai to kill him. Point is with unsensable clones on him, Minato will be at a major disandvantage and hiraishin suprise attacks will not work on sage mode Hashirama anymore (he will always know Minato's location and sage mode danger sensing will help him react). 

All in all, Hashirama defeats Minato in every instance I can think of


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It took two panels, seems quick to me.
> 
> Unless he shows it, you can't claim it.



Obito hasn't shown MS genjutsu does that mean he can't use it ?   
onoki hasn't shown Katon so you saying he can't use Katon ?
hashirama DNA with no modifications did the technique so hashirama himself can 
We even saw madara using hashirama technique grow out from a tree branch 
Yet hashirama can't do that . Wooow ok!! 
So only those with his DNA can but not him 

I agree with senjuclan brilliant post


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## Chad (Aug 22, 2013)

I love how people on this forum try to use Edo Minato feats in a debate concerning Alive Minato when their feats are completely different.

Edo Minato could warp away Juubi BD because his edo tensei body gets rid of his chakra limitations. Alive Minato nearly died just from warping away Kurama.


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## ueharakk (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Obito hasn't shown MS genjutsu does that mean he can't use it ?
> onoki hasn't shown Katon so you saying he can't use Katon ?
> hashirama DNA with no modifications did the technique so hashirama himself can
> We even saw madara using hashirama technique grow out from a tree branch
> ...



I don't think hashirama can use zetsu's transportation technique, telepathy or his ability to turn every tree in the world into his eyes, however I do think he should at least have the mokuton merging abilities that edo madara displayed if that's what you are talking about.



Bluenote said:


> I love how people on this forum try to use Edo Minato feats in a debate concerning Alive Minato when their feats are completely different.
> 
> Edo Minato could warp away Juubi BD because his edo tensei body gets rid of his chakra limitations. Alive Minato nearly died just from warping away Kurama.



edo tensei body allow people to use jutsu within their natural charka limits in succession without running out of chakra, they do not increase the chakra limits of a person and thus don't allow the edo to use jutsu of a larger scale than what they were capable of in real life.  Else if edo tensei's statement of having unlimited chakra was indeed true, then every edo tensei would warp the sensing sphere even worse than the juubi did or edos would display jutsu, feats, and get statements of them doing larger, more powerful version of their real life jutsu.


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## Chad (Aug 22, 2013)

You're right. Edo's cannot knead more chakra then they did when they were alive. However, there is an inconsistency in the manga revolving around the edo tensei chakra limits. Like I said, Minato exhausted most of his chakra in transporting Kurama, and it also required prep time to do so. But Edo Minato could warp the Juubi's BD(which is much larger than Kurama) without prep. Overall, the concept of edos not being able to knead more chakra than they did when they were alive is very inconsistent. Either it's just a Kishimoto inconsistency, or Kurama's Yin chakra highly boosts Minato's chakra capacity.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 22, 2013)

Hashirama can win this by outlasting because catching a instant(it gets no faster than that i do not care who you are) teleporter with the best of best reflexes is not something wood can do. Not to mention tress can be warped so that is another dimension of this feat.

All hashirama has to look out for is minato hitting him with a FTG seal so he should have this match by outlasting. People are funny at saying hashi can do any wood jutsu and just destroy minato and everyone of his kunai and methods of warping. Nice fanfic guys.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't think hashirama can use zetsu's transportation technique, telepathy or his ability to turn every tree in the world into his eyes, however I do think he should at least have the mokuton merging abilities that edo madara displayed if that's what you are talking about



1. Madara used kagerou against the gokage. When he merged with a tree, he traveled to where Tsunade was and emerged there. That is kagerou. It is a standard mokuton ability. All new Zetsu had that ability without training for it
2. How can you say that shodai could not turn any trees in his eyes when Yamato did the same thing. We have seen Yamato merge with trees and spy while merged just like Zetsu. It's just that White Zetsu does it more often. Yamato said at least twice that though he does not look it, he is actually very good at tracking. He said so because of his mokuton abilities. 
3. The only abilities that Zetsu has shown that I am on the fence on is his kawarami no jutsu and his kagerou communication Justu. I think that shodai could easily learn them but I'm not sure that he had them when he was alive


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## Baroxio (Aug 23, 2013)

This has been said already but...Flower Tree World solos. Minato takes a nap and wakes up in the Pure World.


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## trance (Aug 23, 2013)

DSA is a known Hashirama downplayer... 

Anyway, Hashirama definitely doesn't stomp but he should win more times than not...


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## ueharakk (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Madara used kagerou against the gokage. When he merged with a tree, he traveled to where Tsunade was and emerged there. That is kagerou. It is a standard mokuton ability. All new Zetsu had that ability without training for it


nope, if it was a standard mokuton ability then yamato would have that ability under his belt, kagero doesn't only apply to mokuton, and madara did not use it for extremely quick long distance transportation.

Madara actually emerged from the wood while zetsu fuses with it.



Senjuclan said:


> 2. How can you say that shodai could not turn any trees in his eyes when Yamato did the same thing. We have seen Yamato merge with trees and spy while merged just like Zetsu. It's just that White Zetsu does it more often. Yamato said at least twice that though he does not look it, he is actually very good at tracking. He said so because of his mokuton abilities.


show me the scan of Yamato doing those things, yamato already showed us why he's good at tracking, if he had the ability to turn any tree into his eyes and ears, there's no need to track samui's unit via seeds.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> nope, if it was a standard mokuton ability then yamato would have that ability under his belt, kagero doesn't only apply to mokuton, and madara did not use it for extremely quick long distance transportation.
> 
> Madara actually emerged from the wood while zetsu fuses with it.
> 
> ...



1. That's like saying that bijuu control is not a standard mokuton ability because Zetsu does not have it under his belt but I digress ...
2. What do you mean kagero does not only apply to mokuton? Not sure I understand
3. Madara did not have to travel far so he did not but he did travel using trees. Not sure how that is not kagero
4. Zetsu emerges from trees too when he is submerged and needs to get out to interact. Look here. Tell me what is the difference between that and what Madara did
5. Yamato merging with trees to spy? See here and here. As you can see Tenzou also has telepathy
6. Zetsu put seeds on Sasuke too. Why did he do it?


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 23, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> I love how people on this forum try to use Edo Minato feats in a debate concerning Alive Minato when their feats are completely different.
> 
> Edo Minato could warp away Juubi BD because his edo tensei body gets rid of his chakra limitations. Alive Minato nearly died just from warping away Kurama.



LMFAO!!! In what manga?

Minato's current feats are ALL BAse level feats so WTF are u talking about?

1). Mianto has yet to even use even his base level of chakra up with only a couple of Hiriashin's, your delusional if you think minato could not easily at base teleport away a Bijuudama as easily as he did with no problem when he did the same thing to a Kyuubidama with just as little effort, but using his level 3 t/s barrier hiraishin which uses more chakra.
2). In KCM, Minato's speed, strength, power, ect have not been boosted even a bit, thus has been performing at BASE level the entire time so just accept it.

CONCLUSION:
Minato has been performing base level and has not even used enough chakra for edo tensai infinite chakra to even matter so your argument is based on nothing, but poor perception coupled with invalid/unsound logic/reason.

*EVERYONE Just FACE it!!!*
*ALL MIANTO HAS TO DO IS TOUCH HASHIRAMA AND THE FIGHT IS OVER... COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT HASHIRAMA PROVED HIMSELF HE CAN BE KILLED BY A KUNAI (here
CONFIRMS MINATO CAN BEAT HIM..*.
 And no one can deny this!! minato;s physical speed/reflexes coupled with hiraishin level 1,2 and 3 make it *impossible* for minato NOT to at least touch hashirama, but that is all it takes... and he is done... while it is almost IMPOSSIBLE for hashirama to touch mianto with his speed, so do the math!

Add in 3 boss summons and 2 sage forgs that can use sage jutsu and frog song and Hashirama is BONED...

EDIT: NOT TO MENTION THAT MINATO IS WAY TOO FAST FOR ANY OF HIS ATTACKS TO POSSIBLY HIT HIM AND SINCE HE HAS SEALS/TAGS ALL OVER THE FIRE COUNTRY, HE HAS A COUNTRY SIZE RANGE FOR DEFENSE USING THE HIRAISHIN SO NOTHING SM HASHIRAM CAN THROW AT HIM WILL POSSIBLY HIT HIM.
THUS, WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO EVEN HIT MIANTO, HASHIRAMA MIGHT AS WELL BE USING A NERF GUN LOL. ALL OF HIS ATTACKS ARE NEGATED...

COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT MINATO'S SPEED IS WAY TOO MUCH FOR HASHIRAMA TO POSSIBLY TRACK, THUS DEFEND AGAINST. MINATO CAN OVERWHELM HASHIRAMA WITH HIS ATTACKS WHILE HASHIRAMA CANNOT EVEN TOUCH MINATO...
AND HOW CAN HASHIRAMA BEAT SOMEONE HE CANNOT HIT OR EVEN DEFEND AGAINST, MAKES NO SENSE!!!

AND DUE TO SHIKI FUUIJN, AT BEST, ALL HASHIRAMA COULD DO IS FORCE MIANTO TO HAVE A DRAW AGAINST HIM, THUS NO ONE WINS. BUT, HASHIRAMA IS NOT GOING TO WIN WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO EVEN HIT MINATO OR DEFEND AGAINST HIS ATTACKS DUE TO HIS SPEED...

MINATO WINS, Or, *WITHOUT A DOUBT* HAS A DRAW DUE TO* SHIKI FUUJIN.* WHICH CAN BE APPLIED USING THE HIRAISHIN AS WELL MALIGN IT UNAVOIDABLE...

ALL CAPS TO MAKE POINT...


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## Baroxio (Aug 23, 2013)

Flower Tree World Dude. 

EDIT: I love how people hate on Itachi fans for trolling based on a comment, but Minato fans apparently get a free pass for being completely fucking serious when they say Minato > God of Shinobi.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. That's like saying that bijuu control is not a standard mokuton ability because Zetsu does not have it under his belt but I digress ...
> 2. What do you mean kagero does not only apply to mokuton? Not sure I understand
> 3. Madara did not have to travel far so he did not but he did travel using trees. Not sure how that is not kagero
> 4. Zetsu emerges from trees too when he is submerged and needs to get out to interact. Look here. Tell me what is the difference between that and what Madara did
> ...



Kagero/using earth style hiding will not work on mInato who can track and sense the enemy using the ground just like tobirama, as seen here.


So hiding under ground will not work against minato who can track and sense him. Not to mention once minato touches hashirama, he will be able to track him and kill him anywhere, anytime. So qoing under ground will not work for hashirama or allow him to escape the inevitable...



Baroxio said:


> Flower Tree World Dude.
> 
> EDIT: I love how people hate on Itachi fans for trolling based on a comment, but Minato fans apparently get a free pass for being completely fucking serious when they say Minato > God of Shinobi.



LMAO, you mean this jutsu that did not even effect the random kages at all!!!here

If all 5 kages could eaisly avoid it then Minato without even using his hiraishin could as well LMAO... Way to Make no sense...

Gotta love how mInato haters actually think he would fall to a technique that could not even stop 1 of the five kage. hell, not even 1 of hashirama's jutsu even effected any of the five kage, just madara's Susanoo did...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 23, 2013)

Minato doesn't stand a chance against Hashirama.

Stomp thread...


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## ueharakk (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. That's like saying that bijuu control is not a standard mokuton ability because Zetsu does not have it under his belt but I digress ...


of course it's not because it's stated in the manga that mokuton has the ability to control bijuu.  Is it stated in the manga that hashirama has all the abilities that zetsu possesses?  If not, then it's not the same thing.



Senjuclan said:


> 2. What do you mean kagero does not only apply to mokuton? Not sure I understand


kagero allows zetsu to not only merge and travel at high speeds through mokuton, but earth and walls of buildings as well.



Senjuclan said:


> 3. Madara did not have to travel far so he did not but he did travel using trees. Not sure how that is not kagero


Not only did madara not merge with the wood like zetsu does (madara was inside it, not part of it) but if he could have done kagerou he wouldn't have had to travel to the battlefield by sky.  Finally, the burden of proof is on you if you want to extrapolate a technique that isn't stated or implied to be kagerou and say it is.



Senjuclan said:


> 4. Zetsu emerges from trees too when he is submerged and needs to get out to interact. Look here. Tell me what is the difference between that and what Madara did


er, because zetsu doesn't break the wood when he's coming out of it, nor has madara shown that he can do that with solid earth or walls in addition to madara not showing he can do long distances travel with that technique.  So no, madara is not using kagerou.



Senjuclan said:


> 5. Yamato merging with trees to spy? See here and here. As you can see Tenzou also has telepathy


And?  That's nothing compared to what zetsu can do, he doesn't need to send a clone out in order to spy, all he has to do is touch one tree and he is now able to look through every tree on the planet.
If Yamato had the mayfly technique, he would be able to travel all across the world extremely quickly.
If Yamato possessed telepathy then he wouldn't have to verbally communicate to his clone via a microphone receiver.
Those are also not examples of telepathy, yamato has the ability to know if a person who eats his seed excites their chakra, that's most likely what the mokuton bunshin did as a signal to say he found the base.



Senjuclan said:


> 6. Zetsu put seeds on Sasuke too. Why did he do it?


So that he could use the same thing he used on Mei and the other kage.  Because it doesn't matter if he knows where sasuke is if he can't instantly be there in some kind of form.  pretty obvious.

zetsu was able to easily locate taka and locate the heads of all the countrys all without having to put seeds on anyone.


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## batman22wins (Aug 23, 2013)

Wait why are people acting like Harshima is slow. Harshima was fighting Madara who bitchslapped BM Naruto.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> of course it's not because it's stated in the manga that mokuton has the ability to control bijuu.  Is it stated in the manga that hashirama has all the abilities that zetsu possesses?  If not, then it's not the same thing.



1. Yet Zetsu has never been shown to control tailed beasts. By your logic, we should conclude that either tailed beasts control is not a standard mokuton ability or that Zetsu is not really a clone of Hashirama since he has not shown that ability
2. To answer your question, actually the manga does say that Zetsu has the abilities of Hashirama but is simply weaker



ueharakk said:


> kagero allows zetsu to not only merge and travel at high speeds through mokuton, but earth and walls of buildings as well.



What is mokuton? EARTH + water? Right? 



ueharakk said:


> Not only did madara not merge with the wood like zetsu does (madara was inside it, not part of it)



Show me the difference in the manga. Show me where the manga says that Madara was inside the wood but not merged with the wood. 



ueharakk said:


> but if he could have done kagerou he wouldn't have had to travel to the battlefield by sky.  Finally, the burden of proof is on you if you want to extrapolate a technique that isn't stated or implied to be kagerou and say it is.



That's like saying that Hashirama does not have tailed beast control because if he had it, he would not have tried to control the kyuubi with his divine gate but rather with mokuton chakra suppression. Problem is that Hashirama could do both and he chose one and not the other. So, simply saying that Madara did not have to fly does not mean that he can't travel through the ground. If you insist on that, then you open up a bunch of missed opportunities where characters did not use their jutsus



ueharakk said:


> er, because zetsu doesn't break the wood when he's coming out of it



I already showed you a panel where Zetsu comes out of a tree and "breaks" it just like Madara



ueharakk said:


> nor has madara shown that he can do that with solid earth or walls in addition to madara not showing he can do long distances travel with that technique.  So no, madara is not using kagerou.



That is silly reasoning. Madara has not shown his two other MS abilities. Does that mean that he has susano'o but does not have two base MS abilities? 

Kagerou allows one to move through the ground through tree roots, that's what the DB says. Madara moved through the ground using tree roots. Therefore, he used kagerou. 



ueharakk said:


> And?  That's nothing compared to what zetsu can do, he doesn't need to send a clone out in order to spy, all he has to do is touch one tree and he is now able to look through every tree on the planet.



False. Zetsu clones need to communicate with one another through telepathy. Zetsu clones out of range do not know what the other clones do. He does not see through all trees. That's why he has many clones so they can relay info to one another. No different from Yamato.



ueharakk said:


> If Yamato had the mayfly technique, he would be able to travel all across the world extremely quickly.
> If Yamato possessed telepathy then he wouldn't have to verbally communicate to his clone via a microphone receiver.



He needs to communicate with them when they are out of range. Zetsu told Obito that he can't communicate with his clones when they are out of range either. However, we have seen Yamato communicate with his clones telepathically when they are in range in the example I gave you. So, we see that they are exactly similar. Out of range, neither Zetsu nor Yamato can communicate with his clones. In range, they can do so telepathically



ueharakk said:


> Those are also not examples of telepathy, yamato has the ability to know if a person who eats his seed excites their chakra, that's most likely what the mokuton bunshin did as a signal to say he found the base.



Neither the manga nor the databook says what you are claiming. However, it does show that Yamato communicated with his clone through extrasensory abilities=telepathy



ueharakk said:


> So that he could use the same thing he used on Mei and the other kage.  Because it doesn't matter if he knows where sasuke is if he can't instantly be there in some kind of form.  pretty obvious.



No. He put seeds on Sasuke so that he could spy on him. The seeds are clones!! They are not original white Zetsu. So, just like Tenzou he needs to have seeds on people he wants to spy on without being physically present. 



ueharakk said:


> zetsu was able to easily locate taka and locate the heads of all the countrys all without having to put seeds on anyone.



Yes because he is a sensor and uses more clones than Tenzou. Both are abilities that Hashirama has shown but Tenzou did not develop. Just like Zetsu, Tenzou is a weak clone of Hashirama. So, there are aspects of the original that he did not develop in strength


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## Van Konzen (Aug 23, 2013)

Hashirama sees Minato and ran like hell..

Flee-on-sight-bitch!..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 23, 2013)

batman22wins said:


> Wait why are people acting like Harshima is slow. Harshima was fighting Madara who bitchslapped BM Naruto.


One of Naruto's _clones_. Clones which have shown speed inferior to BM Naruto himself.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> One of Naruto's _clones_. Clones which have shown speed inferior to BM Naruto himself.


nope, narutos clones are just as fast as the original.


it still got one shotted by madara despite its 'speed'. its not that narutos clones are slower than the original, its just that naruto isnt as fast as he is wanked to be and speed is a nonfactor to top tier shinobi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 23, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> nope, narutos clones are just as fast as the original.
> 
> 
> it still got one shotted by madara despite its 'speed'. its not that narutos clones are slower than the original, its just that naruto isnt as fast as he is wanked to be and speed is a nonfactor to top tier shinobi.


Naruto is the fastest character in the manga, barring Juubito and Hirashin Minato. Hell, the Naruto clone didn't even use the speed, Kishimoto is clear when Naruto actually USES his speed. He just leaped at Madara blindly with a Cho Mini-Bijudama in his rage.

This is what happens when Naruto uses his speed Madara wasn't able to brush him aside at all.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 23, 2013)

Hmm, this thread somehow eluded my vision for five pages.


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