# Could Minato escape Kamui with FTG?... NO!



## N4GAmbush (Jan 3, 2014)

Alright so I saw this thread that stated Minato could teleport out of kamui if he really wanted to...

I'm here to disagree with that for a few select reasons and see if anyone agrees

1) Okay so number one, Minato made it a point not to get warped by Kamui. Many people may argue that this was simply because he didn't know where it would take him and wanted to play it safe. That's a reasonable argument as I wouldn't want to get teleported to some unknown territory either but even so, why did he worry so much?

2) Obito tried to teleport Minato, his teacher... Let's think about this rationally, if Obito was Minato's student then he definitely knew about his FTG technique. In fact he even explains it to Kushina, further emphasizing this point. Just the fact that Obito actually tried to teleport Minato should allude us to the conclusion that it would work; unless we instead conclude that Obito is the dumbest character in Narutoverse but that's obviously not the case.

3)The only known pathway between Kamui's dimension and the real world is Obito's Sharingan. Earlier I tried to explain Kamui and FTG to my friend. FTG requires a seal which is filled with Minatos chakra. This chakra creates a link between him and his tag and explains why minato is able to teleport people that are in contact with his chakra.

Obito is able to completely erase his chakra when he is fully warped inside kamui, why is that? It's simple really, he is no longer a part of the natural realm and so he technically doesn't exist in it either, making him undetectable to sensors because his level of existence is zero. 

I likened FTG to a computer and a router with unlimited range. Under normal circumstances, the computer is able to connect to the router and through that connection, Boom, you got internet. This is just like FTG. Minato is able to connect the link between his tag instantly through their matching chakra and BOOM, teleportation. 

Now, what if we were to teleport that computer into Kamui, what would happen? The computer would search for Wi-Fi but would fail to find a suitable connection. The router it was previously connected to, even with an unlimited range, no longer exists in that realm and so there is no way for them to communicate. The computer will be without internet forever and so would Minato 

Hopefully this makes sense to everyone but... thoughts?

_→ Because this is more of a jutsu vs man thread, it needs to be moved to the proper section. - Cord_​


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## Chibason (Jan 3, 2014)

I didn't read the OP but I suppose you're referring to Kakashi's version...cuz we already saw him escape Obito's Kamui.


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## ShinobisWill (Jan 3, 2014)

Kakashi's Kamui warped off the Gedo's arm mid summon, so it's possible for Kamui to do damage/kill Minato if he's caught off guard with it, considering it's speed. Not sure about Obito's grab warping Kamui, though.


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## BlinkST (Jan 3, 2014)

The topic is if Minato can escape Kamui if he's inside the dimension already; don't turn this into some kind of battledome discussion. 

I agree with the OP's reasoning, anyway.


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## ARGUS (Jan 3, 2014)

He can't teleport out of another dimension 
So once he's warped he jus stays there


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## JPongo (Jan 3, 2014)

Until it's shown that he can't, I'm going to assume he can.

Plus he can't get caught in it anyway.


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## Hayn (Jan 3, 2014)

Im just going to assume that Minato can teleport to his tags no matter where he is, other dimension or not. All ST jutsu's should at least work at the same basic level, like all dimensions and all that kind of stuff being linked.


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## crisler (Jan 3, 2014)

There certainly would be places Minatos' FTG would not work. Otherwise Minato would not have been so concerned with escaping it.

However, I'm not sure kamui realm is one of those places...


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jan 3, 2014)

Minato escaped Kamui on time because it would have torn him to shreds not just transported him to another dimension. Deidara's arm anyone ? 
The Kamui user can choose the size of Kamuis barrier space and depending whether its small or not it can either transport a whole target or just part of it. You could always argue that the Sharingan link from Kamui land and the real world isnt chakra based but hey we all have our opinions.
I do not think there are any dimensional limitations to FTG range since its you know a Space-Time jutsu that bends the very fabrik of space-time itself.


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## Hayn (Jan 3, 2014)

If some guy was suddenly vaccuming you away, would you not want to escape as soon as possible? Or do people here actually think that Minato knows how Obitos kamui/dimension works 100%?


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## Overhaul (Jan 3, 2014)

Only one way to find out.


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## lathia (Jan 3, 2014)

I've thought about this a lot. To be honest, It's a 50/50 toss up. Onto your 3rd point. If "chakra" wasn't able to be conducted then Nagato would not have been able to do this. After all, they're inside a whole different dimension/realm, and the other paths, although next to the frog, are oblivious. That being said, how can chakra be conducted to a different dimension, and not be traced/sensed in the present dimension?

In the end, it would be silly to say Hiraishin is unable to escape Obito's dimension, simply because he knows how it works. I hate to say this, but Obito is not the brightest of the bunch. Furthermore, we've seen Kishi fool Obito with a simple teleporting to a moving object (act / step 2).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 3, 2014)

First 2 points are irrelevant. Minato simply was being precautious and Obito is one dumb fuck.


With 3rd point though you might be onto something.


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## T-Bag (Jan 3, 2014)

2 separate dimensions. chances are minato's marking in the real world can't connect to the other dimension therefore won't work.


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## Kai (Jan 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> First 2 points are irrelevant. Minato simply was being precautious and Obito is one dumb fuck.


Obviously you're just ignoring the manga.

Kishi had Minato state decisively, and not conservatively, that "whoever strikes first will win." 

It was never "even if Tobi struck first with Kamui, Minato may still Hiraishin out and there's nothing really to worry about!"

Minato stated this *decisively*, and that's the most important bit here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hamaru (Jan 3, 2014)

Like T-bag said. Besides, if it worked one way, it would work the other way around too, which it doesn't.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 3, 2014)

lathia said:


> Onto your 3rd point. If "chakra" wasn't able to be conducted then Nagato would not have been able to do this. After all, they're inside a whole different dimension/realm, and the other paths, although next to the frog, are oblivious. That being said, how can chakra be conducted to a different dimension, and not be traced/sensed in the present dimension?



Yes, I agree that chakra is able to be conducted. I don't agree, however, that chakra is able to be conducted through dimensions. You have to remember that the frog was still within range of Nagato as it didn't leave Amegakure. If the frog was in a different dimension the outcome would have been completely different as to Nagato his path would have disappeared entirely and ceased to exist in the world Nagato was in, leaving him unable to send chakra to it because it would be unable to locate the path...



lathia said:


> After all, they're inside a whole different dimension/realm, and the other paths, although next to the frog, are oblivious.



And no, there in the stomach of a frog, not a different dimension. The jutsu that Jiraiya used was actually a barrier...


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## lathia (Jan 3, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Yes, I agree that chakra is able to be conducted. I don't agree, however, that chakra is able to be conducted through dimensions. You have to remember that the frog was still within range of Nagato as it didn't leave Amegakure. If the frog was in a different dimension the outcome would have been completely different as to Nagato his path would have disappeared entirely and ceased to exist in the world Nagato was in, leaving him unable to send chakra to it because it would be unable to locate the path...


The frog was within the same dimension, but the Animal path wasn't. It's a parallel dimension to the real one, much like Obito's kamui. Also, Nagato was indeed controlling the path, there are signs of a battle in the panels. What he wasn't able to do was to locate the animal path. It was located on a totally different dimension. 


N4GAmbush said:


> And no, there in the stomach of a frog, not a different dimension. The jutsu that Jiraiya used was actually a barrier...





> ダメじゃ！次出ていけば必ず殺される！！
> さらに眼が増えた！それに結界トラップが二度も通じる相手じゃありゃへんぞ！！
> toad granpa: No way! If ya go there they'll kill ya!
> They've got more eyes than before! And it's not the kind of enemy that'll fall for the same trap twice!!
> ...


I don't see anything about a barrier. The way I see it, the Toad's stomach is a different dimension altogether. The "barrier" aspect comes from the weird properties the bellies of the frog have. As in, that dimension is protected from such. Which frog bellies have rooms, chairs, buildings, and so on?

What I think Minato was afraid of was about the outcome of reaching such dimension. Obito could have very well put him under Genjutsu the moment Minato was caught off guard. Thus leaving him trapped, forever.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 3, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Alright so I saw this thread that stated Minato could teleport out of kamui if he really wanted to...
> 
> I'm here to disagree with that for a few select reasons and see if anyone agrees
> 
> 1) Okay so number one, Minato made it a point not to get warped by Kamui. Many people may argue that this was simply because he didn't know where it would take him and wanted to play it safe. That's a reasonable argument as I wouldn't want to get teleported to some unknown territory either but even so, why did he worry so much?


This is just silly. If I am to believe you, Minato should've said, *oh I like adventures! Lets see where the rabbit hole goes!*

Master Jiraiya has a space-time dimension that has a  on the other side. It would be *tactically retarded* for Minato to ALLOW himself to be sucked into an unknown dimension where even the *possibility *exists for him to be instantly destroyed upon arrival. 

It is a statistical fact that if you are being kidnapped from crime scene number one and transported to crime scene number two that your chances of survival diminish by leaps and bounds and you are statistically better off if you attempt your escape at crime scene number one. Minato simply made the correct tactical decision that's obvious to anybody. 

Kishi gives us a moment to moment account of EXACTLY what Minato is concerned about: Obito's impending threat, the nature of his jutsu, his identity, his speed. That's it. Nowhere do we see worry about I MUST NOT GET SUCKED IN, I MUST NOT GET SUCKED IN! You *coloring *it as him being really worried about it is simply your flawed interpretation of those events. He said "WTF was that" and never gave it another thought.


> 2) Obito tried to teleport Minato, his teacher... Let's think about this rationally, if Obito was Minato's student then he definitely knew about his FTG technique. In fact he even explains it to Kushina, further emphasizing this point. Just the fact that Obito actually tried to teleport Minato should allude us to the conclusion that it would work; unless we instead conclude that Obito is the dumbest character in Narutoverse but that's obviously not the case.


No. It would lead us to the conclusion that Obito didn't know as much about Minato's jutsu as he thought. Just like he didn't seem to know despite having it explained to him that Minato's jutsu activation is so much faster than his he could escape it twice; the second time even before Obito could activate it. You see... just because Obito believes something, like my jutsu activation is faster than your jutsu activation, that doesn't mean it's true.


> 3)The only known pathway between Kamui's dimension and the real world is Obito's Sharingan. Earlier I tried to explain Kamui and FTG to my friend. FTG requires a seal which is filled with Minatos chakra. This chakra creates a link between him and his tag and explains why minato is able to teleport people that are in contact with his chakra.


Correct. However, Kamui is first and foremost a space-time dimension. As someone above me pointed out. We've seen one space-time dimension already penetrated by Pein. Without clear evidence that Kamui stands alone in its theoretical impenetrability above other space-time dimensions then this point is quite simply just speculation. You should write up a story where this is true based on your head canon and post it to fanfiction.net because that's where it belongs.


> Obito is able to completely erase his chakra when he is fully warped inside kamui, why is that? It's simple really, he is no longer a part of the natural realm and so he technically doesn't exist in it either, making him undetectable to sensors because his level of existence is zero.


Pein could not find Jiaraiya sitting in his Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison in Pein's ocean. You know... the one he only has to touch to tell if someone's in it. 


> I likened FTG to a computer and a router with unlimited range. Under normal circumstances, the computer is able to connect to the router and through that connection, Boom, you got internet. This is just like FTG. Minato is able to connect the link between his tag instantly through their matching chakra and BOOM, teleportation.


 Arguments by analogy are inherently flawed due to the fact that analogies cannot perfectly represent their intended subjects. Pein's rotating chakra wifi signals penetrated a space-time barrier when his chakra sensing techniques couldn't. There's no need to reference head canon where we turn manga issues into discussions on wireless routers and wifi hotspot access.


> Now, what if we were to teleport that computer into Kamui, what would happen? The computer would search for Wi-Fi but would fail to find a suitable connection. The router it was previously connected to, even with an unlimited range, no longer exists in that realm and so there is no way for them to communicate. The computer will be without internet forever and unfortunately, so would Minato
> 
> Hopefully this makes sense to everyone but... thoughts?


Unfortunately for your flawed analogy, we've already seen one ninja gain broadband connected remote super user access when he jailbroke Jiraiya's dimensional firmware so I've absolutely no reason to take this conclusion seriously. Just more head canon and fan fiction.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 3, 2014)

LMFAO! You two are so ridiculous xD 

"This technique summons a small, gourd-shaped toad, called a "Gourd Toad" (瓢箪蝦蟇, Hyōtan Gama), a unique species of toad indigenous to Mount Myōboku. This technique is used to capture and isolate a victim by dragging them into the toad's stomach. Isolated from the outside world by a barrier, the space inside the Gourd Toad's stomach is far larger than the surface size of the Gourd Toad itself."

"This technique is used to capture and isolate a victim by dragging them into the toad's stomach. Isolated from the outside world by a barrier, the space inside the Gourd Toad's stomach is far larger than the surface size of the Gourd Toad itself."

*]"...isolate a victim by dragging them into the toad's stomach. Isolated from the outside world by a barrier"*

Nowhere in the description of this jutsu is it implied that they are warped into some other type of dimension. I understand you want to ship yourself with Minato as an avid fanboy of his but please, don't make stuff up when there's clearly nothing there to back up your claims. I'm pretty sure we all know how barriers work in Naruto... 

Good try though


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## lathia (Jan 3, 2014)

Did you just quote Narutopedia and ignored the classification of the jutsu?  Do I really have to explain the application of the word "barrier?" It's not an invisible barrier that reflects attacks, the barrier comes from the pocket dimension inside the toad's stomach.


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## Jagger (Jan 3, 2014)

> 1) Okay so number one, Minato made it a point not to get warped by Kamui. Many people may argue that this was simply because he didn't know where it would take him and wanted to play it safe. That's a reasonable argument as I wouldn't want to get teleported to some unknown territory either but even so, why did he worry so much?


However, did Minato know what he was getting into it? You can say that because your knowledge on the jutsu's technique is much higher than the amount of intel Minato had back then when he fought Obito for the first time. 

For all he knows, he was being send to a bigger trap. He had to act quick and don't lose time, plus, his knowledge only reached the basics of Obito's Kamui.



> 2) Obito tried to teleport Minato, his teacher... Let's think about this rationally, if Obito was Minato's student then he definitely knew about his FTG technique. In fact he even explains it to Kushina, further emphasizing this point. Just the fact that Obito actually tried to teleport Minato should allude us to the conclusion that it would work; unless we instead conclude that Obito is the dumbest character in Narutoverse but that's obviously not the case.


This won't be the first time Obito actually thinks something will happen and the effect is totally different. Obito did know about his master's ability to jump from one kunai to another, but he didn't know every single detail about the technique itself. 

As we all saw, Obito wasn't aware Minato was able to mark someone with just a touch as he was caught off-guard by this. Not only that, but he didn't know either the mark stays forever which leave us to think that maybe Obito's knowledge about FTG isn't really that advanced. 

However, I'm not sure of this. For one part, it is possible Minato is capable of escaping from the dimension using a Kunai outside of the dimension, but, on the other hand, maybe the fact Minato is currently staying in another dimension that is not the one they're accostumed to live in prevents Minato from leaving unless the user of Kamui wants him to leave.



> 3)The only known pathway between Kamui's dimension and the real world is Obito's Sharingan. Earlier I tried to explain Kamui and FTG to my friend. FTG requires a seal which is filled with Minatos chakra. This chakra creates a link between him and his tag and explains why minato is able to teleport people that are in contact with his chakra.
> 
> Obito is able to completely erase his chakra when he is fully warped inside kamui, why is that? It's simple really, he is no longer a part of the natural realm and so he technically doesn't exist in it either, making him undetectable to sensors because his level of existence is zero.
> 
> ...


However, while I can find a logical answer for your first two points, this one is quite interesting and pausible. 

But, we don't have enough amount of information to be sure of this. I'll just say there's a 50% chance Minato might escape and the remaining 50% goes to Obito preventing Minato from escaping his personal dimension.


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## BlinkST (Jan 3, 2014)

lathia said:


> The frog was within the same dimension, but the Animal path wasn't. It's a parallel dimension to the real one, much like Obito's kamui. Also, Nagato was indeed controlling the path, there are signs of a battle in the panels. What he wasn't able to do was to locate the animal path. It was located on a totally different dimension.


 The name of the technique is "Kekkai barrier: Gamahyoro". Jiraiya uses the term "barrier" in #381. The technique was described as sucking them into the toad's stomach. 


It's never been described as a space-time jutsu by any character. Then again, Kamui uses the similar "barrier" and "sealed dimension" terminology.


So, ftg could work, or maybe not. I'll agree with the op that it's probably impossible to escape without Obito's eyes.


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## lathia (Jan 3, 2014)

BlinkST said:


> The name of the technique is "Kekkai barrier: Gamahyoro". Jiraiya uses the term "barrier" in #381. The technique was described as sucking them into the toad's stomach.
> 
> 
> It's never been described as a space-time jutsu by any character. Then again, Kamui uses the similar "barrier" and "sealed dimension" terminology.


I'm not a fan of the databooks, but his answer is right there in the description of the jutsu. I don't think he quite grasps the concept of a parallel pocket dimension inside a belly. 

I think anyone can simply understand the terminology and the context being applied to almost all S/T techs. In a way or form, the simple fact that a dimension exists elsewhere also implies some sort of "protective" properties as well.

I see you added. I'm also 50/50 and it's not as "unlikely" as some want it to be. S/T techniques are extremely versatile theoretically, and the author has shown some applicability of such versatility. 

Also, Bee's question was whether or not all S/T techs used the same pocket dimension Kamui uses. Which we all knew by now that, that isn't the case. Besides, Hiraishin doesn't really have an empty pocket dimension so to speak. It uses wormhole like properties to reach the end point.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 3, 2014)

*Spoiler*: _Really, N4GAmbush?_ 





N4GAmbush said:


> LMFAO! You two are so ridiculous xD
> 
> "This technique summons a small, gourd-shaped toad, called a "Gourd Toad" (瓢箪蝦蟇, Hyōtan Gama), a unique species of toad indigenous to Mount Myōboku. This technique is used to capture and isolate a victim by dragging them into the toad's stomach. Isolated from the outside world by a barrier, the space inside the Gourd Toad's stomach is far larger than the surface size of the Gourd Toad itself."
> 
> ...







Don't know what you're reading.

My copy of The Official Naruto Character Data Book says "caster summons the Gourd Toad, Gamahyotan, who lives on Mount Myoboku, then drags the target into the toad's stomach, *where a sealed dimension isolated from the outside world exists.*"

To put it bluntly you have no evidence of what you're saying. 


You have no evidence that Minato's connection to his curse marks depends on sensing chakra or even sensing anything through normal space. He may indeed be using something else entirely like the space-time link itself.
You have no evidence therefore that he can't sense his markings from Obito's dimension. 
You have no evidence that his space-time jutsu, nor indeed any other space-time jutsu does not operate normally in Obito's dimension.

You have to prove claims. You can't just state them and have them be believed. You have no evidence nor any inkling that anything you're claiming *even might* be true so I can't see you proving your argument any time soon.

Good try though


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## fior fior (Jan 3, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:
			
		

> unless we instead conclude that Obito is the dumbest character in Narutoverse but that's obviously not the case.


Well, the DB says otherwise..


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## BlinkST (Jan 3, 2014)

lathia said:


> I'm not a fan of the databooks, but his answer is right there in the description of the jutsu. I don't think he quite grasps the concept of a parallel pocket dimension inside a belly.
> 
> I think anyone can simply understand the terminology and the context being applied to almost all S/T techs. In a way or form, the simple fact that a dimension exists elsewhere also implies some sort of "protective" properties as well.
> 
> I see you added. I'm also 50/50 and it's not as "unlikely" as some want it to be. S/T techniques are extremely versatile, theoretically and the author has shown some applicability of such versatility.


 


If Minato is in Obito's dimension, he's technically already outside of the real world, so it might be impossible for his chakra to reach his tags. Or, he might be able to enter his own subspace from inside Obito's, although Kakashi already clarified not all space-time jutsu are linked. 

Depends on how we view the "subspace" described in the text. He might be able to defy Obito's dimension, or he might not. Sasuke did solo Orochimaru's dimension, after all. I guess it's not really an important thing to seriously debate, since it's probably not gonna happen again.


All I know is one thing: Itachi solos


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 3, 2014)

I wish I could post it but I don't feel like booting up my scanner. I'm sick and it's too much work for a silly thread.

It's worth it to note the Kamui entry in the databook never classifies Kamui as a space-time technique, even though we know it is, and as BlinkST has already pointed out, uses the same terminology of a "sealed dimension" to describe Kamui as it does to describe Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 3, 2014)

Well played, anyways... I'm not entirely sure of what Jiraiya v Pein has to do with Minato v Obito. The one thing that we've established is that Nagato was unable to locate the path inside the toad's stomach, which goes with what I said earlier anyways. There's obviously a difference between Obito's dimension and wherever Jiraiya took the path as Obito's dimension has one way in and one what out and that's through Obito's sharingan and it also exists outside of the natural realm whereas Jiraiya's exists inside of it (as the toad and his gourd are no doubt inside the natural realm). The difference being that it would be possible to establish contact with the gourd whereas with Kamui there's no place to send the chakra through. GG Minato unless he's able to kill Obito and transplant his eye but I doubt that would happen.



fior fior said:


> Well, the DB says otherwise..



It also says: "These stats reflect Obito's abilities at the time of his "death":"
Don't forget about that part buddy (:


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## insane111 (Jan 3, 2014)

Isn't that "sealed dimension" part a translation of "kekkai"? If so, I'm pretty sure that's a bad translation.


But as people pointed out, the same term was used with Kamui, so I guess it's moot.


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## Saturnine (Jan 3, 2014)

JPongo said:


> Until it's shown that he can't, I'm going to assume he can.
> 
> Plus he can't get caught in it anyway.



The burden of proof rests on the one making a claim, not the one trying to refute it. Hence, the proper way to proceed would be to assume that he can't, unless he shows that he can


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 3, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Well played, anyways... I'm not entirely sure of what Jiraiya v Pein has to do with Minato v Obito. The one thing that we've established is that Nagato was unable to locate the path inside the toad's stomach, which goes with what I said earlier anyways. There's obviously a difference between Obito's dimension and wherever Jiraiya took the path as Obito's dimension has one way in and one what out and that's through Obito's sharingan and it also exists outside of the natural realm whereas Jiraiya's exists inside of it (as the toad and his gourd are no doubt inside the natural realm). The difference being that it would be possible to establish contact with the gourd whereas with Kamui there's no place to send the chakra through. GG Minato unless he's able to kill Obito and transplant his eye but I doubt that would happen.


I've seen no stated difference between the two. A "sealed dimension" is a "sealed dimension" until the manga says otherwise.

Be that as it may, in order to prove your claim, you have to prove one of two things:

Minato can't sense his curse marks in the normal world from Obito's dimension and cannot initiate Hiraishin without first sensing his curse marks.
Hiraishin (or any other space-time technique besides Kamui) doesn't operate normally in Obito's dimension.
You haven't successfully argued either of these points.

Your best bet is number 1, but the problem with your argument is thus:

Space-time jutsu operate by moving through subspace.
Minato's link to his markings have not been established as *chakra sensing* and may indeed be something like the subspace link itself.
Since you can't prove Minato EVER has to send his chakra through anywhere, but his own subspace superhighway, then you can't successfully make the claim you're trying to make.

Look at it this way, can you see sealing Obito inside some other space-time dimension from which he can't use Kamui to escape? No. It's highly implausible. Just as it is highly implausible that Minato is going to be sealed off from his own subspace transport.

Therefore, GG argument.





Saturnine said:


> The burden of proof rests on the one making a claim, not the one trying to refute it. Hence, the proper way to proceed would be to assume that he can't, unless he shows that he can


No. The original claim being made is that being inside Kamuiland inhibits Hiraishin. THAT is the positive claim that still has to be proven and which the OP has failed to do.

No other claims need be made or proven, period. And assuming Hiraishin will continue to do what it's been doing is not a claim at all.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jan 4, 2014)

Hayn said:


> If some guy was suddenly vaccuming you away, would you not want to escape as soon as possible? Or do people here actually think that Minato knows how Obitos kamui/dimension works 100%?


Indeed in any event it is the most logical decision to not let the opponent succeed in their technique.


lathia said:


> I've thought about this a lot. To be honest, It's a 50/50 toss up. Onto your 3rd point. If "chakra" wasn't able to be conducted then Nagato would not have been able to do this. After all, they're inside a whole different dimension/realm, and the other paths, although next to the frog, are oblivious. That being said, how can chakra be conducted to a different dimension, and not be traced/sensed in the present dimension?
> 
> In the end, it would be silly to say Hiraishin is unable to escape Obito's dimension, simply because he knows how it works. I hate to say this, but Obito is not the brightest of the bunch. Furthermore, we've seen Kishi fool Obito with a simple teleporting to a moving object (act / step 2).



Looking at what happened with the Animal Path I've noticed something interesting. The Animal path is completely lifeless. There's nothing. Now the toads said that he crashed through the barrier meaning he jumped into the technique.

But we've seen it takes a little more than what it looks like that body took to finish a Pain body. 

I posit that the reason that Animal Realm was offline, was because it was completely cut off from Nagato. It wasn't transmitting or receiving. The chakra rod embedded in Jiraiya however was still "hot" because it was able to hold a chakra charge. Think about Shikamaru's Shuriken Kage Mane no Jutsu. It is possible to place a sustained charge of chakra in a metal that conducts chakra and have it be independent. Thus as far as he was concerned the Animal Realm had disappeared.

There are only a few possibilities. When a person uses a summon technique, the most basic of the space time ninjutsu they use the blood of the contract to summon someone no matter where they are. It is functional even if that person is sealed inside someone else within reason, for instance Madara summoning Gedo Mazo out of Obito. And if the inside of the seal of a jinchuriki isn't a separate space and dimension...... pursuant to that we should all remember that the Hiraishin in the end is simply a remote activate summoning technique the exact same technique concept that lets a ninja activate an exploding tag with a hand seal. 

So another question is can Minato actually broadcast the signal to a Hiraishin Tag to trigger the summon. I have an interesting solution. Theoretically when any Kamui is activated a door is opened between the space time dimensions. In that instant, Minato should be able to signal a Hiraishin tag to summon him. 

Another possibility is that a summon can only transport within it's space-time line of sight i.e. within the same continuum. So Minato can't transport from Kamui world to Earth but he can transport to any other Hiraishin point in the Kamui. But Obito exists simultaneously in both, so could Minato teleport to his tag on Obito while he's in the real world?

Lastly there's the possibility that the Kamui dimension is not impermeable and that it instead exists only slightly out of phase with our own universe and any space time ninjutsu with some kind of anchor would work, so not only would Hiraishin allow Minato to return to normal space, but so would a reverse summon such as used by the toads.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

My point entirely Amat?rasu’s Son, however, CyberianFanboy seems to believe otherwise...


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## Ezekial (Jan 4, 2014)

From inside the dimension? No, he can't, how could he... Unless he can travel through space and time into other dimensions.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

Exactly, the only way he can get out is by warping to another dimension and from that dimension back to earth but unfortunately his S/T jutsu doesn't work like that. It's not even logical to assume he could


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 4, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> My point entirely Amat?rasu?s Son, however, CyberianFanboy seems to believe otherwise...


Name calling? Really? 

The point of your OP *""* was clearly not what Amat?rasu?s Son is saying. He's presenting a list of possibilities. That's completely different than what you're doing. You obviously fail to even understand you are presenting an argument favoring fan fiction as fact, so much so, that you compare it to Amat?rasu?s Son's list of possibilities. If you had presented a list of possibilities in your OP, I wouldn't have had any problems with that. I may have even joined you in speculation. That clearly was not your intent.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

Yes, he listed a great set of possibilities and I agree with most of what he had to say. However, there is absolutely no way that I can prove how Minatos FTG technique works through direct statements as Masashi Kisimoto wouldn't spend time explaining it in great detail. The only thing I am able to go off of is two things 1) What feats Minato has accomplished thus far and 2) My understanding of the space-time continuum (which is should know quite a bit about as I'm currently studying physics). With all of that knowledge it's really only rational to believe that he is unable to escape as he would have no link to his tags whatsoever (unless like Amat?rasu’s Son said is true and Kamui isn't an alternate dimension but rather exists within the confines of our own universe). 

Unless Amat?rasu’s Son is correct or Minato is actually momentarily entering another dimension whenever he teleports I just don't find it logical to believe that he can escape as to him his tags would no longer exist.
Though I apologize for the name calling, you just pissed me off with that fanfic comment as I resent both Minato and Obito as Naruto characters in general. 

With that said, we have absolutely no proof that could, without a doubt, decide the outcome but within the realm of logic and reason I'd have to say that he's unable to do so. I'll settle for 50/50 though as anything is possible in fiction and as it stands there is no evidence to either prove my third claim or suggest otherwise.


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## Raventhal (Jan 4, 2014)

I haven't read any post. But the answer depends 100% on if the author wanted him to or not.  Wizards in ninja clothes have no science.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 4, 2014)

This is about as far as I'm going to go because now we're just going around in circles.

My point is quite simply we have no knowledge about how Minato's tags work. We just don't. They are *clearly* not regular fuinjutsu marks because they survive his death and don't go away without outlandish circumstances such as becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki. 

Yet even Amat?rasu’s Son expects me to consider it in the same light as we would an exploding tag trigger? WE DON"T KNOW THAT! *It hasn't been covered.* Any speculation along those lines is just speculation, which is fine *as long as you admit that that's what it is.*

This you have not done.

Stop trying to present logic about unknowns as iron clad logic about facts.

We've seen nothing that can block Minato's connection to his tags, not even barrier jutsu like Shishienjin, Shisekiyōjin, and Musekiyōjin, which have been seen blocking things like the Reika no Jutsu. So how the hell is it "logical" to just assume Kamuiland is going to do what nothing else will?

Do we even know that he ports by sending a signal to the tag or remote triggering as Amaterasu Son claims? As far as I know that's a fan made assumption. The only signal I recall ever being mentioned is the one that signals him when his kunai is being thrown. Nothing was ever stated that he remotely triggers the kunai and IT INITIATES THE HIRAISHIN. That is a fan made assumption with no backing. 

How do you know that each tag is not permanently linked to him THROUGH SUBSPACE, not regular space? In which case Kamuiland can't do shit to Hiraishin unless it can alter the laws of space-time manipulation for anyone not using Kamui, which we have no inkling of.

How do you know he can't just enter into subspace and THEN decide which tag to exit out of, like a bunch doors marked EXIT? In which case sending signals or jamming signals is a moot point that never needs to be brought up.

*You don't* so all I ask is that *you stop pretending that you do.*


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

Minato and Obito made an implicit agreement that the fight would be over if he got caught in kamui.  There wouldn't have been any dramatic tension in the fight if Minato could pop back out of kamui after being fully warped, and no point for Minato to tell us that Obito's S/T jutsu was better than his own if his trumped it.  Just  the first part was good enough for me.



CyberianGinseng said:


> I wish I could post it but I don't feel like booting up my scanner. I'm sick and it's too much work for a silly thread.
> 
> It's worth it to note the Kamui entry in the databook never classifies Kamui as a space-time technique, even though we know it is, and as BlinkST has already pointed out, uses the same terminology of a "sealed dimension" to describe Kamui as it does to describe Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō


I'll save you the effort.  

Minato very clearly calls Kamui a space/time technique.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> How do you know that each tag is not permanently linked to him THROUGH SUBSPACE, not regular space? In which case Kamuiland can't do shit to Hiraishin unless it can alter the laws of space-time manipulation for anyone not using Kamui, which we have no inkling of.
> 
> How do you know he can't just enter into subspace and THEN decide which tag to exit out of, like a bunch doors marked EXIT? In which case sending signals or jamming signals is a moot point that never needs to be brought up.
> 
> *You don't* so all I ask is that *you stop pretending that you do.*



LMFAO!!! xD 

Dude, your making Minato out to be The Spot from Spider-Man. I thought that since you were refuting my claim you'd have a better, more appropriate explanation of his technique at least but that idea is utterly ridiculous, no offense.

1) I'm not entirely sure of what you classify subspace but the basic definition of it is a space exists within another space. If Minato was able to enter subspace and then access any tag that he wished, I'm absolutely sure that the technique description would tell us that information as it changes the technique entirely. With that ability, Minato could stay in that subspace for as long as he wished before he picked his destination as the subspace would be an infinitesimal point that operates on a completely different level of time (just as electrons operate faster to us than they would if we were standing on them) and he teleports from A to B instantly(meaning time must be slower in said subspace so he could enter the "doors" you speak of) Thus, Minato should be the greatest ninja to ever exist as he would have all the time in the world to come up with a strategy and if it failed he could always just go back and come up with another. Once again, this obviously isn't the case but if it was then I'd agree, he can escape.

That's obviously not the case though and I believe the idea I proposed makes more sense than the idea that Minato can enter some form of subspace as he would practically have his own dimension and when he teleported the bijuu before his death, he could have just left it in that subspace instead of teleporting it elsewhere... 

Your a fun guy to debate with though, I'll give you that


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'll save you the effort.
> 
> Minato very clearly calls Kamui a space/time technique.


I already said we know it's a space-time technique. Go back and read.

Clearly I was talking about the databook as in trying to say the databook doesn't classify something as a space-time technique is not proof its not a space-time technique, which was a point of BlinKST's post.

*Now let me save you some trouble.* 

Minato never addresses being in Kamuiland to begin with, period. He says only that this dude tried to warp me into some dimension, period. He never spares Kamuiland another thought, period.  We see moment to moment what he is thinking about. NOWHERE does he spare one moment to think what happens if he gets on the other side of Kamui.

He has no way of knowing what happens to him when he gets there. And no way of knowing if Hiraishin can warp him out because HE MIGHT BE DEAD AND DEAD PEOPLE WHO AREN"T EDOS CAN"T USE HIRAISHIN.

It's fucking retarded to claim this means he somehow knows OTHER space-time jutsu can't be used inside Kamuiland.





N4GAmbush said:


> LMFAO!!! xD
> 
> Dude, your making Minato out to be The Spot from Spider-Man. I thought that since you were refuting my claim you'd have a better, more appropriate explanation of his technique at least but that idea is utterly ridiculous, no offense.
> 
> ...


Last post in this thread. 

I'm not saying that's what's happening. I'm giving a short list of possibilities as to what could be happening because the author has left things open as to what actually is happening. I didn't bring subspace into the Narutoverse. The databook claimed that all space-time techniques transport the user through subspace. That's only reason I ever even used that word to begin with. Maybe Kishi or someone on his staff is a Trekkie IDK. 

You're misrepresenting what I said. I'm not claiming Minato has a place like Kamuiland where he can hang out and host a battle conference to decide strategy. The man is shown reacting to Raikage's fastest charge in microseconds and then locating and retaliating against his target before this same person that attacked him is able to even change the position of his body. And you somehow don't believe that it's at least possible that he can take a microsecond to decide which tag he wants to appear at in the space before arrival? Only thing "obvious" about that is that it's a pretty tall assumption to make and has nothing to do with logic.

Again, Minato's link to his markings has not been explained. I've no reason whatsoever to believe it operates the same as say the remote trigger of a caged bird seal. CBS disappears when somebody dies.

*Edit:*
*@N4GAmbush*
You haven't even actually read what I've written. It's hilarious. 

I'll add these and leave it at that:


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

CyberianGinseng said:


> It's fucking retarded to claim this means he somehow knows OTHER space-time jutsu can't be used inside Kamuiland.



It's also retarded to claim Minato has his own subspace. That just sounds like a fanmade assumption  lol


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

> I already said we know it's a space-time technique. Go back and read.



That's two pages.  Ain't nobody got time for that.



> Now let me save you some trouble.



I saved loads by not reading. :33



> It's fucking retarded to claim this means he somehow knows OTHER space-time jutsu can't be used inside Kamuiland.



I think it's dumber to have a fight where characters think they're in danger and act like they're in danger but aren't actually in danger.  

Agree to disagree.


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## Baroxio (Jan 4, 2014)

Jutsu can be used in Kamui land, as both Kakashi and Naruto show when they attack Obito there.

The "router" argument would work...if Tobirama didn't mention that Kage Bunshin's chakra are similarly linked to their hosts. We already saw Naruto's clone get sent into the Kamui realm without any negative repercussions. As such, any link Minato has with his tags won't be broken by getting sent to the Kamui realm.

Keep in mind that he was getting partially absorbed into Kamui at one point, but when warping out he suffered no clipping issues.

Ergo, Minato can warp out of Kamuiland.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Jutsu can be used in Kamui land, as both Kakashi and Naruto show when they attack Obito there.


Yes, yes they can.



Baroxio said:


> The "router" argument would work...if Tobirama didn't mention that Kage Bunshin's chakra are similarly linked to their hosts. We already saw Naruto's clone get sent into the Kamui realm without any negative repercussions. As such, any link Minato has with his tags won't be broken by getting sent to the Kamui realm.



That's different. Shadow clones already have chakra when they're created. There's no reason to have a link between them to keep them working. That point is null due to the fact that it isn't relevant to the issue at hand.



Baroxio said:


> Keep in mind that he was getting partially absorbed into Kamui at one point, but when warping out he suffered no clipping issues.
> 
> Ergo, Minato can warp out of Kamuiland.



Yes and that's due to the fact that the gateway was still open as, like you said, he was only partially sucked in and Tobi was still using his jutsu.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That's two pages.  Ain't nobody got time for that.
> 
> I saved loads by not reading. :33
> 
> ...


I think it's more retarded to  what you claim you'd need to read two pages to see me say. 

"the databook never classifies Kamui as a space-time technique, *even though we know it is*,"

Actually in danger? You mean like when Kabuto could've summoned Madara or a number of Edo's  to ROLFLMAO stomp Itachi & Co into the next world, but didn't? Or when Obito could've just up and left the battlefield and finished his tree somewhere in peace after getting the Gold & Silver Brothers, thus wining the war because nobody could find his ass before the moon was giving them the evil eye?  Or how about Obito acting like Minato's plan worked when he could've gone back and kidnapped Naruto at any point himself with no one the wiser? 

 Characters do that type of shit all the time in Naruto.

You should've saved yourself even more trouble by not bothering to even trouble your fingertips to type.


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## JPongo (Jan 4, 2014)

Saturnine said:


> The burden of proof rests on the one making a claim, not the one trying to refute it. Hence, the proper way to proceed would be to assume that he can't, unless he shows that he can


Umm, the OP is trying to make a claim, he needs to provide that proof.

I don't see it, so I disagree.

Anything else?

Minato > ur fave.


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## N4GAmbush (Jan 4, 2014)

Namikaze<Uzumaki<Uchiha<Senju I believe even the manga supports this claim xD


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## JPongo (Jan 4, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Namikaze<Uzumaki<Uchiha<Senju I believe even the manga supports this claim xD




By having TWO Namikazes in the manga with both EASILY TOP 10 material, yes the Namikazes rule.

Uchiha clan was fodder, Senju barely bested them and the Uzumaki stock fell with Karin.

Namikaze = Strongest. 100% hax.
Uzumaki = Very strong, sigh Karin. 80% hax.
Senju = Few hax, many above average.  ~10% hax.
Uchiha = Few hax, many average. ~5% hax.


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