# SM Kabuto vs Minato



## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Location: Forest of Death
Distance: 60m
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Kabuto knows about FTG (Who doesn't?) Minato is aware Kabuto has absorbed Orochimaru, but doesn't know he has SM.
Restrictions: ET

This is war arc Minato.

Need opinions on who takes this.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

30m start distance, Minato proved he could throw a kunai this distance before Kamui could complete.

Kabuto is blitzed and tagged, he can't react to Kamui, he isn't reacting to a guy who moved this distance faster than Kamui completed, game over from that point.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> 30m start distance, Minato proved he could throw a kunai this distance before Kamui could complete.
> 
> Kabuto is blitzed and tagged, he can't react to Kamui, he isn't reacting to a guy who moved this distance faster than Kamui completed, game over from that point.




I just remembered that. Ok, will need to update that distance. Let's double it shall we and give him a chance to get started.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 6, 2015)

Best case scenario for Minato he ends this in a draw with Shiki Fuuin.

Overall Kabuto is a bad match up imo. With Sage sensing, Hirashin blindsiding becomes less effective and his durability/regen renders all of Minato's offensive arsenal useless.

Although Kabuto needs a confined space to make full use of his arsenal imo. Location is the only thing that stops Kabuto from getting a fairly comfortable win.



Ghoztly said:


> I just remembered that. Ok, will need to update that distance. Let's double it shall we and give him a chance to get started.



<_snip_>

30 meters is fine. Make this 10 meters and nothing changes.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Figured a forest would be where they would ever meet up. Minato isn't a fool and wouldn't rush into a cave considering he had no reason to and the only reason Itachi did was because he knew he could troll Kabuto into stopping his ET.

So a cave made no sense to me. So, forest it is.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Best case scenario for Minato he ends this in a draw with Shiki Fuuin.
> 
> Overall Kabuto is a bad match up imo. With Sage sensing, Hirashin blindsiding becomes less effective and his durability/regen renders all of Minato's offensive arsenal useless.
> 
> ...


10 Meters and Minato blitzes and beheads without being perceived. He's considerably faster than SM Kabuto. 

<_snip_>


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## ARGUS (Nov 6, 2015)

Kabuto wins this mid diff. 

 -- Minato has no means of actually hurting him. Hydrification nullifies every single physical attack. whilst regen and oral rebirth laugh at any rasengans minato may pull. Even if Kabuto does get marked. Minatos attempts are utterly useless. From 60m. its highly unlikely for kabuto to get blitzed when hes in DSM and when he can immediatey spread himself out as water like he did against the Uchiha bros. and just like the bros. minato would be dumbfounded, allowing kabuto to coutner attack by first creating clones from Sakon/Ukon and then catching him with mugen onsa/white rage

 -- Muki tensei and sawarabi no mai change the whole terrain and sink in every single marking that minato may have. and if kabuto utilises kimimaros bones then minato cant just attack recklessly

 -- with his markings hindered, and the fact that minato cant even hurt him means that kabuto eventually catches him in either White Rage or Mugen onsa both of which would paralyse him and finish him off.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Kabuto was avoiding the Katana, Chidori Spear, and Susano Arrow of Sasuke.

A direct implication he cannot fully liquefy.

No need to avoid it if it wouldn't even hurt him.

Kunai Slash beheads.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

The Kamui feat was legit, I even went back to make sure. He is that damn fast...still, you can't really discount the sensing Kabuto is capable of. So anything 50+ should be a good idea on who's better.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

I agree Ghoztly. 50m gives him just enough time to make a move and avoid initial tag.

Won't matter though, he'll eventually get close enough to tag. The speed of those kunais are too much for him.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 6, 2015)

SM Kabuto takes this.

 He's likely one of the most reflexive ninja in the manga outside of God Tier Ninja because he casually evaded a Susano'o Arrow and reacted to Amaterasu physically. He also has Sage Sensing   further improved by Orochimaru's own Sensing and Snake Sensing which gives him a considerable upper-hand here and allows him to sense any attempts of Minato's Hiraishin and react to him accordingly.

 Kabuto's techniques are actually rather useful here considering it affects the environment which can alter the Kunai's location and has techniques that damage the area considerably such as Kidomaru's webs or Kimimaro's bone forest.

 And with knowledge of FTG, Kabuto can gauge Minato's abilities through his liquefying technique if need be.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

> He's likely one of the most reflexive ninja in the manga


No way he's more reflexive than Ei, Tobirama or Minato, who are well below God Tier reaction.

SM Kabuto is just that, a Sage Mode reflexive character, no more reflexive than SM Naruto, who is inferior to the above reactors.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No way he's more reflexive than Ei, Tobirama or Minato, who are below God Tiers.



 He's certainly more reflexive than Minato and his reaction timing can arguably be above Ei's.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

No chance, Kabuto's best reaction feat was against a Susano Arrow.

Minato reacted to Madara's Truthseekers, and Kamui grab by Obito - without knowledge.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No chance, Kabuto's best reaction feat was against a Susano Arrow.
> 
> Minato reacted to Truthseekers, and Kamui grab by Obito - without knowledge.



 KCM Naruto also reacted to Juubito's Gudodama.

 They're honestly not that fast.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Madara's traveled over 70m, and Obito needed 2x Kamui speed to barely escape them from that distance separation.  

Stop, right now.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Madara's traveled over 70m, and Obito needed 2x Kamui speed to barely escape them from that distance separation.
> 
> Stop, right now.



 This isn't something entirely new. Obito literally needed to phase through Konan's explosive paper bombs to evade it which indicates high speed, but no one's going to argue that she can solo most Mid-Kage Tier Ninja.

 Minato's ability to react to Gudodama along with the fact that 6th Gate Gai or 6th Gate Lee could move at high enough speeds to react to or even evade it to me that it's not as fast as you're letting on. Hell, all Minato in that scenario had to do was follow it's movements, react to Lee's Kunai thrown and literally warp twice back-to-back. It was implied that Nearly Blind Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee could literally follow it's movements which is all that was needed for Minato to react to it with Hiraishin, not that it matters because he only reacted to the Kunai Lee had thrown to begin with.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

SM Kabuto can't even react to 1 Kamui.

Obito needed twice that speed to avoid projectiles fired from *70m* away, and he barely escaped them. 

Minato reacted to these same projectiles by warping in front of them, and then warped away with them before they could move a * foot* to go through him.

Not even remotely in the same reaction tier. Minato sees speeds Kabuto wouldn't be able to comprehend.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> SM Kabuto can't even react to 1 Kamui.



 You provided no evidence for that. Even Base Gai managed to react to it's warp close-range, so the idea of SM Kabuto being unable to react to Kamui while displaying superior reflexes compared to Base Gai seems illogical.



> Obito needed twice that speed to avoid projectiles fired from *70m* away, and he barely escaped them.



 So Konan's projectiles can move at God-like speed as well because Obito could only evade it by phasing? Can Konan's projectiles move much faster than a Susano'o Arrow? C'mon now. Gudodama aren't that fast. Susano'o Arrow literally has feats of almost blitzing someone with Sharingan Precognition and required one of the fastest techniques in the manga to counter it. One can't even perform a seal against it yet SM Kabuto casually dodged it.

 Lee, however, managed to intercept it by throwing a Kunai and everyone, even an almost Blind Kakashi could follow it despite having issues doing so with a Susano'o Arrow.



> Minato reacted to these same projectiles by warping in front of them, and then warped away with them before they could move a * foot* to go through him.
> 
> Not even remotely in the same reaction tier. Minato sees speeds Kabuto wouldn't be able to comprehend.



 He reacted to Lee's Kunai that he threw. Afterwards, all he had to do was initiate a mental reaction to warp afterwards which isn't difficult because everything was planned in advance.

 Yeah, I disagree with the last statement.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Minato reacted to these same projectiles by warping in front of them, and then warped away with them before they could move a * foot* to go through him.



There are crazy reaction feats everywhere if you look hard enough,


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 6, 2015)

SM Kabuto is on an entirly differnt level then Minato. Kabuto takes this mid difficutly

Edit: This is War arc Minato meaning Edo Tensei + Kyuubi ???


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

> SM Kabuto is on an entirly differnt level then Minato. Kabuto takes this mid difficutly


I'll message Hussain to clean this up.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

This is war arc Minato, so yes, his latest and most powerful incarnation. Alive Minato would obviously get dookie'd on IMO.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, I disagree with the last statement.



I got one for you.

Kurama was noted to be fast by Sage Naruto's standards. [1]

A bigger, stronger Kurama tried to punch Kushina. [2]

Somewhere in between the panel of Kurama's fist closing in on Kushina (at speeds that apparently impress Sage Naruto) and the panel of Kurama's fist hitting the ground, Minato:


Warped from his house to Kushina
Became aware of the sage-blitzing paw flying towards them
Picked Kushina up bridal style
Teleported or flickered away, escaping with no injuries.

#2fast2furious


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 6, 2015)

Basically what ARGUS said. However, there's no way to determine how effective Hakugeki and Muki Tensei would be outside of the cave.

But I don't think SM Kabuto even needs those techniques to defeat Minato. 
Kabuto is simply on another level.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 6, 2015)

I don't think Minato can blitz a fully realised sage at sixty metres in a forest.


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## Clowe (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Obito needed twice that speed to avoid projectiles fired from *70m* away, and he barely escaped them. .



Just wanted to point out the Truthseekers weren't fired from 70m, that's ridiculous, rather 70m meters is the maximun distance they can separate form the user, before returning.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

> Just wanted to point out the Truthseekers weren't fired from 70m, that's ridiculous, rather 70m meters is the maximun distance they can separate form the user, before returning.


They stopped not far behind Obito's warping position.

I'd peg this as around 70m, look at Madara's position compared to the middle of that explosion [1]


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 6, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Figured a forest would be where they would ever meet up. Minato isn't a fool and wouldn't rush into a cave considering he had no reason to and the only reason Itachi did was because he knew he could troll Kabuto into stopping his ET.
> 
> So a cave made no sense to me. So, forest it is.



Plot is irrelevant in BD, just saying.

But if you want a scenario that makes sense, then make it so that Kabuto kidnapped someone Minato cares about and hid them inside the cave. 

The thing is, location isn't that much of a deal for Minato, but it is for Kabuto.
Nearly all of Kabuto's techniques are AOE, so it is harder to deal with them in confined space. Especially Muki tensei.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Edo Minato no-sells every single one of Kabuto's attacks with Bijū Mode and blows him up.

Normal Minato cannot do anything to Kabuto and his 700 different regeneration jutsu, meaning he'd need to force a draw with the death seal.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Kabuto's regeneration is no greater then Byakugou Tsunade's, likely weaker. 

A number of debaters believe beheading works on her, no reason Minato can't do it here.

8 Trigrams certainly seals him, no need to suicide with DRS. 4 Trigrams might be enough.


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## Kyu (Nov 6, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> This is war arc Minato, so yes, his latest and most powerful incarnation. Alive Minato would obviously get dookie'd on IMO.



Base Minato v. Sage Kabuto is a clos_er_ match actually.

Kyuubi Minato oneshots.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Extreme amount of wank here without much proof backing it. 

Living Minato would run over his Sage Mode son (War-arc) with relative ease, SM Kabuto is no different. 

>Reacts to Truthseekers, which were moving at speeds that nearly hit an opponent who had 70m of separation and needed double Kamui to barely escape
>Reacts to Kamui without knowledge that this random dude could fucking warp space through touch
>Throws a Kunai 30m, enters SM, creates a Rasengan and warps at that kunai before Kamui, which was activated prior to him throwing the kunai, completed
>Reacts to V2 Raikage from 15m, with only knowledge that he had a semi-fast attack (when in reality he had the fastest shunshin in the entire world)

No real debate here IMO. With the high speed kunai projectiles and Minato's incredible defensive reactions, I see no reason why Kabuto wouldn't be tagged quickly, and why he wouldn't be either beheaded or warped into a seal ritual soon after.


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## ARGUS (Nov 6, 2015)

Beheading is never working against hydrification


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

As I already stated, he clearly avoided being hit by Sasuke's Katana, Sasuke's Chidori Spear, and Sasuke's Susano Arrow.

They would've done something to him, that's exactly why he avoided them, and he actually looked very concerned when one of these attacks nearly hit him. 

0 evidence he can completely liquefy, avoiding the above attacks are clear indications he can't, further supporting evidence as he showcased fear when one of these simple physical attacks nearly hit him.

Avoids (no point for someone who can liquefy entirely)

Guards against Magatama with arms (no point for someone who sustains no damage from physical attacks [liquefication] to showcase this expression) (Instead of liquefying to escape the Susano arrow holding him up by simply turning his tail into water, he reaches for a sword to stop Itachi while hanging and Sasuke confirms he's attempting to cut his tail to free himself - something someone who can completely liquefy shouldn't have to do)

Partially gooey liquefies the tail here, after several seconds of hanging unprotected (Suggesting he clearly can't liquefy instantly, a slash can kill him)

Itachi cuts his horn off (if Itachi can cut his horn off, Minato can cut his head off, Kabuto wasn't liquefied and Itachi could've literally beheaded him right there if he wanted)

Avoids sword (no point if you can liquefy)

Avoids Susano Arrow (no point if you can liquefy)

Catches Katana with Snake Tail (no point if you can liquefy)

Avoids Susano Arm (no point if you can liquefy)

Physically grappled without liquefying (Albeit in an illusion, Kabuto certainly wasn't baffled that he didn't liquefy, Susano arm is slower than an FTG blindside attack - if that Susano arm touched and gappled his physical body - a kunai can slash it, Sasuke could've pink-misted him if he chose to squeeze that hand [1], confirmed that he can be physically attacked)

Conclusion: Physical attacks can kill him.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 6, 2015)

War Arc Minato wins no difficulty

Base Minato wins low/no difficulty

The nine year old Minato that defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force mid diffs.


Any incarnation of Minato other than just out of the womb Minato wins. Even then, Baby Minato would somehow push Kabuto to high diff. 

Minato's speed/reflexes are in a different tier than Kabuto. He literally beheads with his first blitz.


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## ARGUS (Nov 6, 2015)

Why bother getting hit by something when you can evade it?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

Mainly because it would enhance your CQC efficiency. 

He had to stop attacking Itachi several times because of Sasuke's interruptions.

If he could liquefy he'd of simply allowed the attack to go through him and continued attacking. 

Itachi cut his horn, Sasuke grappled him with a Susano hand, these are confirmations that physical attacks kill him, avoiding the physical attacks instead of allowing them to go through his liquid body are supporting evidence that he didn't have a liquid body to begin with.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Liquefying uses his chakra.

 If anything, physically evading would allow him to conserve chakra, so doing so effortlessly was the best approach.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

SM Kabuto needs to conserve chakra?

Dude remote controlled an entire army of immortals in base.

With Karin's DNA, Orochimaru's chakra, Jugo's DNA- and the reserves to enter SM- he needs to conserve chakra by not using a technique that has never been stated as overtly chakra taxing? 

Enough.

He avoided the attacks because he either can't completely liquefy, or he can't do it quickly.

Either way, his head gets slashed off. Susano arm grabbed him, Itachi slashed his horn off. These are physical attacks he did not avoid, and he was not liquefied when they landed.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

It's a no match , Minato neg/low diff :

*Link Removed*

BM+BD=Goodby Kabuto .
The two of them are not playing in the same category .
Base Minato wins mid/high diff , Shishou Fuin stomps .


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## Clowe (Nov 7, 2015)

Why are we throwing BM Minato here, he obviously stomps, he's in a completely different league.

Alive Minato is a lot closer, I'd say he wins high/extreme diff, people are seriously underrating SM Kabuto here too, the guy has the reflexes to dodge a Hiraishin blitz as well as the Hydrification Technique as a last resort defense, I'd say Minato wins, but not easily at all, he'll probably need to seal Kabuto after finding out he can't kill him normally (Karin and Juugo's healing combined).


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## Matty (Nov 7, 2015)

Where is Izaya? He would know.

Jk SM Kabuto takes it.

EDIT: wait, wait, wait... this is BM Minato?! He fucks up SM Kabuto


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## Hachibi (Nov 7, 2015)

>War-Arc Minato

Bijuudama GG


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

BM Minato would rape this 

Assumed this was base Minato with war arc feats


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## Hasan (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> 30m start distance, Minato proved he could throw a kunai this distance before Kamui could complete.
> 
> Kabuto is blitzed and tagged, he can't react to Kamui, he isn't reacting to a guy who moved this distance faster than Kamui completed, game over from that point.





Ghoztly said:


> The Kamui feat was legit, I even went back to make sure. He is that damn fast...still, you can't really discount the sensing Kabuto is capable of. So anything 50+ should be a good idea on who's better.



Not quite. He threw the kunai and jumped to it _after_ Kakashi used Kamui. It's just shown afterwards, because the author was depicting three people in action. The three panels (5th, 6th and 7th) are simply elaborations of the panels in the top row, observed from a different perspective to show the effect.


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## Mercurial (Nov 7, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Not quite. He threw the kunai and jumped to it _after_ Kakashi used Kamui. It's just shown afterwards, because the author was depicting three people in action. The three panels (5th, 6th and 7th) are simply elaborations of the panels in the top row, observed from a different perspective to show the effect.



This. I don't know how people are unable to understand that. It also was just a coordinated team effort where everyone was covering or waiting for someone else. Kakashi waited for Gaara (who waited for Minato to launch a kunai to Madara so he could teleport right to him) to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS and for Minato (who waited for Gaara to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS so he could literally appear from nothingness thanks to the Hiraishin kunai) to attack Madara and had his attention while he would have safely warped Obito in the other dimension. No one was trying to outspeed anyone. If you want coordinated team effort feats, then Kakashi is exactly as fast as 6th Gate Gai since he moved at the same exact speed. And Rock Lee can throw kunai so fast that they become projectiles faster than 8th Gate Gai, the one who outspeeds Juudara, who blitzes SM Minato, by far. And adult Sasuke is as fast as adult RSM powered Naruto for the same exact reason. Actually, Sasuke arrived to Momoshiki before Naruto, so he is even faster. Do people really think so? 

Canonically Minato can't perceive Kakashi's fastest usage of Kamui (which was  by Madara himself), as he is right near to Kakashi when he uses it against Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it, and still has to ask him if he got the Gedo Mazo or not. Because he literally couldn't perceive and follow the warping, so he couldn't tell if Kakashi warped the Gedo in the Kamui dimension or if Madara summoned it to himself (while on the other part Kakashi could, also showing better reactions than Minato here, that's not surprising, since he could already equal his reaction speed *here*, against a sudden threat). That's not that surprising, since Minato's reflexes followed by Hiraishin usage could barely outspeed Obito's Kamui, even when Obito admitted he lost precious time in talking to Minato before warping him.





OT Minato wins with a lot of difficulty, Kabuto's abilities are good to give him a harder time than usual, but in the end Minato will surely defeat him by sealing him with Shisho Fuuin. Also it's not actually clear if Kabuto can be damaged or not, since he has Suika no jutsu and regeneration, but still avoids swords and Susanoo attacks. Well he has Orochimaru's Kawarimi after all anyway.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

This isn't proving anything , Kakashi is related to his Kamui , so he obviously knowed what happen , Minato has seen the aborbing spiral but he simply can't figure out if it got warped or not since it was teleported/summoned by Madara at the very last fragment of second before the warping .


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## LightningForce (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't see how Minato wins against SM Kabuto. 

Kabuto got the senses and physical enhancement from a fully-mastered SM, much like SM Naruto does. Even if he can't avoid FTG Lvl 2 (which I doubt due to sensing), he's definitely not going to be one-shotted especially if it's not a Senjutsu-infused Rasengan (which Minato doesn't normally utilize and can't hold for long to effectively use it).

White Rage will incapacitate Minato or Tayuya's sound genjutsu will incapacitate Minato for a moment. WIth the battleground as a forest, Kabuto can also control the landscape (Muki Tensei or Sawarabi no Mai) and get rid of the kunai which may be scattered across him. Like Obito, Minato is mainly a one (two?)-trick pony and full knowledge on FTG means SM Kabuto, with reflexes that pressured EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi, will be alert to warp movements and capitalize on Minato's blindside attacks.

SM Kabuto is too versatile to allow Minato to take control of the battleground. It's like every Minato thread I see, Minato typicaly wins by bamflashing his opponents with his speed and FTG. But I believe Kabuto can keep up with that.


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## Mercurial (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> This isn't proving anything , Kakashi is related to his Kamui , so he obviously knowed what happen , Minato has seen the aborbing spiral but he simply can't figure out if it got warped or not since it was teleported/summoned by Madara at the very last fragment of second before the warping .



Related? What is this. If Naruto throws a Bijuu Dama, it's not like Naruto is in the Bijuu Dama and knows and feels every rock is vaporized by it. Kamui is not like some kind of a sensory ability, in this application it just opens a warp in the space-time and warps the objective in another dimension through it. It's not like Kakashi "feels" what he is warping, he is not in contact with it.

"Minato has seen the aborbing spiral but he simply can't figure out if it got warped or not since it was teleported/summoned by Madara at the very last fragment of second before the warping"

Exactly, that's what happened. Kakashi used Kamui in conjunction on Madara summoning the Gedo, and Minato couldn't tell what happened, since the Gedo disappeared, he couldn't tell if Kakashi completely warped it in the other dimension or Madara successfully summoned it away. Because he couldn't perceive the speed of Kamui, to him it seemed only that Gedo disappeared. Kakashi showed better visual reactions as he could see that he warped the Gedo but only a part of hit, and so Madara managed to summon it to him.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Kamui concentrate his sprit in one point of space with his MS , that's Kamui mechanism according to databook . That's implying Kakashi is knowing what he warps with his Dojutsu .
Plus , it was much more than human size Kamui , and in feats , Minato can launch a Kunai at 30m teleport and blitz before even Kakashi can complete his warping , now you are saying that Minato can't see his own moves , it's not making any sens .


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## Mercurial (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Kamui concentrate his sprit in one point of space with his MS , that's Kamui mechanism according to databook . That's implying Kakashi is knowing what he warps with his Dojutsu .
> Plus , it was much more than human size Kamui , and in feats , Minato can launch a Kunai at 30m teleport and blitz before even Kakashi can complete his warping , now you are saying that Minato can't see his own moves , it's not making any sens .



But even then, if Minato could perceive what happened, he wouldn't have had to ask Kakashi. He was there, he could see an arm being sucked away by Kakashi's warp and the rest of the body disappearing.

In feats, yes, if you conventiently ignore what Hasan said (that it was just a visual rappresentation of actions that were happening all together in a single combo: it's not like Kishimoto could draw all different actions in a single strip) and the fact that it was just a coordinated team effort where everyone was covering or waiting for someone else. Kakashi waited for Gaara (who waited for Minato to launch a kunai to Madara so he could teleport right to him) to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS and for Minato (who waited for Gaara to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS so he could literally appear from nothingness thanks to the Hiraishin kunai) to attack Madara and had his attention while he would have safely warped Obito in the other dimension. No one was trying to outspeed anyone. If you want coordinated team effort feats, then Kakashi is exactly as fast as 6th Gate Gai since he moved at the same exact speed. And Rock Lee can throw kunai so fast that they become projectiles faster than 8th Gate Gai, the one who outspeeds Juudara, who blitzes SM Minato, by far. And adult Sasuke is as fast as adult RSM powered Naruto for the same exact reason. Actually, Sasuke arrived to Momoshiki before Naruto, so he is even faster. Do people really think so?


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## Kurak (Nov 7, 2015)

Kabuto. Sound Gen GG. Minato is nothing for SM Kabuto.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> But even then, if Minato could perceive what happened, he wouldn't have had to ask Kakashi. He was there, he could see an arm being sucked away by Kakashi's warp and the rest of the body disappearing.
> 
> In feats, yes, if you conventiently ignore what Hasan said (that it was just a visual rappresentation of actions that were happening all together in a single combo: it's not like Kishimoto could draw all different actions in a single strip) and the fact that it was just a coordinated team effort where everyone was covering or waiting for someone else. Kakashi waited for Gaara (who waited for Minato to launch a kunai to Madara so he could teleport right to him) to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS and for Minato (who waited for Gaara to rise up a sand wall to block Madara's LoS so he could literally appear from nothingness thanks to the Hiraishin kunai) to attack Madara and had his attention while he would have safely warped Obito in the other dimension. No one was trying to outspeed anyone. If you want coordinated team effort feats, then Kakashi is exactly as fast as 6th Gate Gai since he moved at the same exact speed. And Rock Lee can throw kunai so fast that they become projectiles faster than 8th Gate Gai, the one who outspeeds Juudara, who blitzes SM Minato, by far. And adult Sasuke is as fast as adult RSM powered Naruto for the same exact reason. Actually, Sasuke arrived to Momoshiki before Naruto, so he is even faster. Do people really think so?


The oppenet is JJ Madara , Kakashi's Kamui was at full speed , their goal was to completely warp Obito before the incredibly fast Madara can blitz him , and Minato's goal was to hold him so that they can make it at time , otherwise Kakashi is just a complete idiot :

Minato's moves are simply much faster than human size Kamui .
Plus another point , MInato clearly see , react and evade human size Kamui even in sudden surprise attack as we have seen in the flash-back , that implies he can easily evade human size Kamui , it's confirming JJ Madara's feats .

As I said the only reason why Kakashi know and KCM Minato (who is obviously much at another level) don't is that the copy ninja is related (he concentrate his spirit at one point of space) to what he warps out , that's all .


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Damn, this seems to have an even amount of supporters for Kabuto and Minato, I was thinking it would be close.  How does Minato deal with white rage?


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## J★J♥ (Nov 7, 2015)

Kabuto blitzes and oneshots minato like everyone else on his tier.


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## LightningForce (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Damn, this seems to have an even amount of supporters for Kabuto and Minato, I was thinking it would be close.  How does Minato deal with white rage?



He can try to teleport to safety, but SM Kabuto can easily detect where he is too and will immediately come after him while White Rage is still in effect.



J★J♥ said:


> *Kabuto* blitzes and oneshots *minato* like everyone else on his tier.



You sure it's not the other way around?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

White rage isn't doing anything , both Itachi and Sasuke was able to use V2 and ribcage Susano'o in that kind of situation , Minato can use FTG to dodge Kabuto's attack , he can even benefit form that to mark him and make the fight much easier .

Also why is Kabuto detecting FTG lvl2 , Kunai isn't made of chakra right , until shown proof to the contrary , he is still hited by that .


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## LightningForce (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> White rage isn't doing anything , both Itachi and Sasuke was able to use V2 and ribcage Susano'o in that kind of situation , Minato can use FTG to dodge Kabuto's attack , he can even benefit form that to mark him and make the fight much easier .



No, although he should still be able to use quick-activating jutsu on the fly like FTG, he will still be momentarily paralyzed by White Rage. Sasuke was also giving in to the paralysis and lost concentration of Susano'o [1]. Minato who doesn't have any form of solid physical defense will feel the effects more prominently. If Minato tries to mark him or touch him, he will put himself at a huge fucking risk because Kabuto can sense him. Kabuto can also possibly get rid of the mark by shedding off his skin.



> Also *why is Kabuto detecting FTG lvl2* , Kunai isn't made of chakra right , until shown proof to the contrary , he is still hited by that .



Danger sensing courtesy of SM dude, he can sense an attack without the need to see it.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

No physical defenses are useless against white rage , Susano'o isn't blocking any form of sounds , plus maybe Sasuke got paralysed but he still can use ninjutsu , the same goes for Itachi , so basically Minato can use FTG to evade his attack .



> Kabuto can also possibly get rid of the mark by shedding off his skin.


FTG mark is quite special , Hachibi's tentacle was still marker even after beeing sliced , same goes for Obito , even after his phasing Jutsu and Izanagi he was still marked , Kabuto can't delet the mark .

Yeah , but ,FTG lvl2 isn't a normal super fast Shunshin or Taijutsu move , it's a sudden and surprise move in a postion where the ennemy can't move unless he is really much much faster , and it isn't Kabuto's case . And no detceting it isn't an option since he will not sens danger unless Minato grab the Kunai in that position .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Sage sensing hard counters Hirashin. 
Normally you pop behind someone and they are fucked. With sage sensing, they know where exactly you are at all times, you can't surprise them, you can't blind side them. 
I don't see Minato tagging Kabuto unless he finds a way to overload sage sensing like Itachi did. 
And even if he tags him, Rasengan isn't doing shit. 
Again, this is a bad match up for Minato.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

No because FTG is instant changing position , Kabuto isn't knowing where Minato would teleport unlike a Shunshin for example . Plus Kabuto is concentrating his sensing in just one oppenent , he didn't notice Itachi coming from his back , so how he could sens Minato's sudden FTG lol , Kabuto was lured by a Kage bunshin+much slower moves compared to Minato's .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Yes, so the instant Minato changes his position, the instant Kabuto will know where he is, in what way or form he is attacking etc.
Even if his back his turned, he will just duck or move to the side and dodge Minato because he knows what Minato is about to do. 

Itachi was able to tag Kabuto by overloading sage sensing. As far as we know, Minato doesn't have a comparable move.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

And the instant Kabuto know where he is it will be already late since Minato is at such a position Kabuto can't evade him , Kabuto isn't that fast , even Itachi who has much slower  managed to cut his horn just using clone diversion , so Minato plus FTG... Sorry but Kabuto evading combos of that level is just a fanfic .



> Itachi was able to tag Kabuto by overloading sage sensing. As far as we know, Minato doesn't have a comparable move.


Lol , so Itachi is suddenly mastering total undetectability like Muu .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

TBH I didn't think of shedding his skin. He probably could, he is practically Orochimaru 2.0, Obito was still marked because it was the same body, did he even alter his body at all? Shedding his skin would probably completely get rid of the mark, it wouldn't even be there anymore.

Also the tentacle is still marked because it didn't alter at all, was simply severed.

He is leaving his old skin behind entirely.

The mark would be gone. Well, not gone per se, just left on his old skin.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

And what's the difference between changing skin and changing tentacle , one have new tentacle the other have new skin ... Why would we favour Kabuto .

FTG mark is simply much more complex that we expect that's all .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

I dunno man, it seems like Kabuto hard counters everything Minato has. Seems the Minato supporters can only fall back on the usual hes too fast he blitzes BS but I don't think Kabuto is having it.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And the instant Kabuto know where he is it will be already late since Minato is at such a position Kabuto can't evade him , Kabuto isn't that fast , even Itachi who has much slower  managed to cut his horn just using clone diversion , so Minato plus FTG... Sorry but Kabuto evading combos of that level is just a fanfic .
> 
> 
> Lol , so Itachi is suddenly mastering total undetectability like Muu .



 He blitzed Nagato's Shared Vision with mere Shuriken. So yes, he is a master of total undetectability.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Wow , now the cerberus is compared to Kages specialized on speed .


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, so the instant Minato changes his position, the instant Kabuto will know where he is



Kabuto doesn't have instantaneous perception.


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## LightningForce (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And what's the difference between changing skin and changing tentacle , one have new tentacle the other have new skin ... Why would we favour Kabuto .
> 
> FTG mark is simply much more complex that we expect that's all .



Bee's marked tentacle went back to him. Therefore, the mark stayed with Bee.

When Obito became the new Ten Tails host, he shed off his old skin as well [1], and Minato did not realize his mark was gone until he tried it [2]. Note that this was before he gained full control of the Ten Tails and was able to use Onmyoton to nullify any form of ninjutsu (although he wasn't able to do it for Tobirama's mark).

Therefore, we have grounds to assume that skin shedding will take the mark off.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kabuto doesn't have instantaneous perception.



 Good thing Minato doesn't have instantaneous attack speed either.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Well, it wouldn't take the mark off, just discard it along with his 'old' skin.

In any case, it's gone and Minato gets merked.

Thats if the fight even goes that long, seems like he counters Minato hard.


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## Amol (Nov 7, 2015)

If people are gonna argue that Minato can't harm Kabuto then you also have to acknowledge that Kabuto is also not landing any hit on Minato.
And whatever happened to Minato's ability to seal?
He can seal Kabuto away after he tires him out after a prolonged battle.
Kabuto is no immortal. He has regeneration, not complete invulnerability.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Good thing Minato doesn't have instantaneous attack speed either.





			
				Grimm said:
			
		

> Yes, so the instant Minato changes his position, the instant Kabuto will know where he is



Enlighten me. Where do you see "attack speed" in that quote?


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## LightningForce (Nov 7, 2015)

Amol said:


> If people are gonna argue that Minato can't harm Kabuto then you also have to acknowledge that Kabuto is also not landing any hit on Minato.
> And whatever happened to Minato's ability to seal?
> He can seal Kabuto away after he tires him out after a prolonged battle.
> Kabuto is no immortal. He has regeneration, not complete invulnerability.



Kabuto can paralyze Minato with White Rage and sound genjutsu, and set up traps with spider webs, so there goes Minato's kunai scattering advantage especially when Kabuto gets rid of the first batch of kunais using Muki Tensei.

Seriously, SM Kabuto has some of the best counters to Minato's FTG tactics. What is Minato going to use to seal Kabuto? Shiki Fujin? SM Kabuto will surely recognize the hand signs and prevent Minato from casting it.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Neither Hakugeki nor Mugen Onsa have paralyzed anything, and Muki Tensei "getting rid" of dozens of kunai randomly scattered throughout a forest doesn't make any sense.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Doesn't need to paralyze anything, if it even interrupts him even just a bit thats enough for Kabuto. And muki-tensei would certainly counter the scattered kunai, I don't see why it wouldn't.

I like how people think Kabuto is slow, go see Edo Itachi getting ripped in half and get back to me.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachi was ripped in half only because he protected Sasuke from Muki Tensei otherwise , he don't need aid to counter him , plus Kabuto was immmunised to visual Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi , 90% of Itachi's dangerosity is lost , nothing like Minato .

Itachi w/o Genjutsu<<Minato .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

So I guess dodging Sasuke's arrow isn't a speed feat either. Combined with his sensing that's no joke.

Given his other abilities it doesn't seem like Minato's speed is going to be enough here. 

He also can liquefy , and along with his regenerating abilities he's even more difficult than Orochimaru to put down.

Liguefying, regeneration, sensing, genjutsu, even bringing the battlefield to life, all the sound 5's abilities being used by a ninja that isn't fodder, the abilitiy to shed his skin, several different elements, and he also isn't a dumbass.

Minato is a badass for sure, but I dunno, I am leaning towards Kabuto here.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> to paralyze anything, if it even interrupts him even just a bit thats enough for Kabuto.



Maybe if Kabuto was fighting Mei. 



Ghoztly said:


> And muki-tensei would certainly counter the scattered kunai, I don't see why it wouldn't.



How about explaining how?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Uh, do I really need to explain what it does? Minato needs to scatter his Kunai about the batllefield correct? Unless they have some super secret barrier jutsu in place I would imagine they aren't immune to the jutsu's effects.

Every Minato thread is the same. Speed blitz yadda yadda. Speed isn't beaiting Kabuto, and he has no jutsu fast enough and with enough force in it to kill him even if he did blitz him.

He gets wrecked.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Which of the jutsu's effects can get rid of kunai?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And the instant Kabuto know where he is it will be already late since Minato is at such a position Kabuto can't evade him , Kabuto isn't that fast , even Itachi who has much slower  managed to cut his horn just using clone diversion , so Minato plus FTG... Sorry but Kabuto evading combos of that level is just a fanfic .


Its not fanfiction : [2

You may also liken it to this : [2
As long as your opponent can keep track of you, it is pointless to blindside them. Because the only advantage it gives you is gone.



> Lol , so Itachi is suddenly mastering total undetectability like Muu .


Its not undetectability, but Kabuto's had sensory overload in both occasions he was tagged.
First time he was swarmed by a flock of crows, and the second time 4 magatama cornered him simultaneously.



Rocky said:


> Kabuto doesn't have instantaneous perception.



As long as Minato is within his nature energy field, he pretty much does.
Refer to Tobirama vs Madara.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Maybe the fact it takes control of lifeless objects? 

You're grasping...


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

The problem with that scan is that Kabuto isn't Rinnegan Madara.



> Maybe the fact it takes control of lifeless objects?



Can you please just explain exactly what will happen.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

And Minato isn't Itachi. Oh yeah I did.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> As long as Minato is within his nature energy field, he pretty much does.
> Refer to Tobirama vs Madara.



Er, no. Tobirama was in the process of executing Hiraishingiri on Madara as Madara was becoming aware of him. Madara had the reflexes to get out the way in time, but Kabuto ≠ Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The problem with that scan is that Kabuto isn't Rinnegan Madara.



Unless you prove that Madara has better sensory skills, then the point is moot. 

I'd also say that Kabuto is a slippery fuck, maybe even better than Madara @ evasion. He evaded Sasuke's arrow and then Susano'O @ close range. Madara was tagged by Sasuke's katana in CQC.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Uh, their super reflexes are a result of Sage Mode. The difference between them is the difference between non-sage Kabuto & non-sage Madara. Non-sage Madara has speed and reflex feats that shit _all over_ base Kabuto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

We haven't seen base Kabuto fight. 

But going by their sage mode feats, I don't see any clear difference between them.

Actually, like I said, Kabuto has better evasion feats.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Sage Kabuto doesn't have a feat on par with evading Hiraishingiri, base Kabuto doesn't have a feat on par with reacting to v2 Raikage, and I honestly do not know why the fuck _Kabuto_ would get the benefit of the doubt over Madara.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

> Its not fanfiction : [2


Wow comparing a man enhanced with both Rikudo Chakra and Senjtsu , the one who blitz Naruto the Senjtsu user who can detect everything just by his Shunshin to Kabuto lol .




> You may also liken it to this : [2
> As long as your opponent can keep track of you, it is pointless to blindside them. Because the only advantage it gives you is gone.


No Kakashi's move is nothing comparable to lvl2 FTG , Obito hasn't even time to activate Kamui while he can easily do it against BM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: _Minato's lvl2 FTG vs Tobi_ 









*Spoiler*: _BM Naruto vs Tobi_ 









Plus comparing Kakashi's attacks to Minato's :amazed ...... Just lol



> Its not undetectability, but Kabuto's had sensory overload in both occasions he was tagged.


Kabuto isn't doing better than the instant Kamui activation .



> First time he was swarmed by a flock of crows, and the second time 4 magatama cornered him simultaneously.


FTG is just what you said but in better way and much faster . It's both surprising and instant Jutsu .



> As long as Minato is within his nature energy field, he pretty much does.
> Refer to Tobirama vs Madara.


Madara+Rikudou Chakra+Senjustu>>Sage Kabuto>=Sage Naruto , plus Minato's FTG combos are better than Tobirama , more deadful as stated in the databook .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sage Kabuto doesn't have a feat on par with evading Hiraishingiri, base Kabuto doesn't have a feat on par with reacting to v2 Raikage, and I honestly do not know why the fuck _Kabuto_ would get the benefit of the doubt over Madara.


Why are you trying to compare their base ? Like I said, Base Kabuto never fought. 

But we have feats from both their SM versions. 

Kabuto dodged Susano'O when it was literally a couple of inches away from tagging him, in mid air, when he was preoccupied. [2
Thats faster than Tobirama can strike.




hbcaptain said:


> Wow comparing a man enhanced with both Rikudo Chakra and Senjtsu , the one who blitz Naruto the Senjtsu user who can detect everything just by his Shunshin to Kabuto lol .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



comparing 14 year old Obito who got blindsided to 30 year old Rinnegan version. 
Cool.

What Rikodou chakra ?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

So basically the Minato supporters in this battle are saying his speed alone wins him this? Against a SM user who won't run out of nature energy? And also won't be killed by his blitz due to not having a nuke capable of killing him?

Minato loses. Checking out.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Susano'o punch is definitly too slow to touch someone Minato w/o FTG , even Danzo Managed to dodge it w/o Izanagi .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Danzo only reacted to its activation, he was already jumping away when it was activated.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Base Kabuto never fought.



Ino never fought in the epilogue, but I don't just assume she can react to v2 Raikage, so please.

Stop. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto dodged Susano'O when it was literally a couple of inches away from tagging him, in mid air, when he was preoccupied. Thats faster than Tobirama can strike.



Susano'o didn't instantaneously materialise into existence a foot away from Kabuto with no forewarning. 

Furthermore, Susano'o has nothing putting it on the same speed tier as Tobirama, so I'm unsure as to why it failing to close its gigantic hand over Kabuto is an indication that Kabuto is faster than Madara. 

Sasuke forming a hand over Kabuto and trying to close it is going to take longer than Tobirama's arm takes to go a foot forward.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Pretty sure Sasuke's Susanoo activated and swatted Danzo like a fly after he caught Sasuke by surprise, and in mid attack the Susanoo caught him. Infact it was as if it acted even faster then Sasuke had time to turn and react himself. 

That's pretty goddamn fast. Susanoo isn't slow at all.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

It's not slow. It's just not as fast as Tobirama. That doesn't even make any sense. Tobirama's one of the quickest characters outside of the god tier.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

No Danzo evaded Susano'o punch here [1] [2] . That confirming Susano'o punches aren't that fast . If you add Minato's reflexes and base speed are much much higher than old Danzo , then it's easy for him to dodge that kind of Jutsu even without FTG (but FTG will make it more confortabl) .

And Basically MS Obito is the same despite his age since he is a looser , only Hashi cells and Madara's teaching enhanced his speed and level so that he can perceive speed Kage , even if he trains he will not rise his level that much . 
Kyubi's attack MS Obito=War Arc MS Obito 



> What Rikodou chakra ?


Ashura(Hashi)+Indra's(Madara) chakra fusion bring him Rikudo level chakra according to Hagoromo .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

I am not trying to imply Kabuto is in the same tier of speed as Tobirama and of course not Minato. But they are very one dimensional.

Kabuto isn't .

His other abilities counter Minato hard, and he isn't a snail either, Minato is faster no doubt, but covering one area IN MY opinion, not fact here, won't give him more wins against Kabuto than vice versa. 

I say Kabuto wins because of the sheer amount of counters he has.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Ino never fought in the epilogue, but I don't just assume she can react to v2 Raikage, so please.
> 
> Stop.


I am not saying Kabuto can react to V2 Raikage in base. I am saying it is irrelevant, as we are comparing their SM versions.



> Susano'o didn't instantaneously materialise into existence an inch away from Kabuto with no forewarning.


Kabuto noticed it when it was inches away from him, though.



> Furthermore, Susano'o has nothing putting it on the same speed tier as Tobirama, so I'm unsure as to why it failing to close its gigantic hand over Kabuto is an indication that Kabuto is faster than Madara.



Susano'o's hand is faster than you think.
[2]
[2]

It was able to guard Naruto from Obito's omnyouton, as you can see it moving at below. When Minato couldn't do shit.



> Sasuke forming a hand over Kabuto and trying to close it is going to take longer than Tobirama's arm takes to go a foot forward.


It was already formed. And Kabuto pretty much escaped its grasp when it was literally inches away from him.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Mindless Obito's GudoDama's changin form n is slow , at extreme close range :
-KCM Naruto managed to make two chakra arms and catch both Sasuke and his father who as 10/15m further .
-Tobirama managed to tag Juubito many times 

At close range :
-Old Hiruzen managed to somehow avoide it , he got hitted on his shoulder instead of his head (Juubito blitzed him in the second attempt) .


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not saying Kabuto can react to V2 Raikage in base. I am saying it is irrelevant, as we are comparing their SM versions.



If base Kabuto cannot react to v2 Raikage, and base Madara can react to v2 Raikage, then Madara has better reflexes than Kabuto. If you give them both Sage Mode, that isn't going to change.

Logic 101



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto noticed it when it was inches away from him, though.



That's on Kabuto.

Dodging Sasuke's Susano'o is not comparable to dodging one of Minato or Tobirama's blitzes. Susano'o doesn't form as fast as Hiraishin and doesn't move as fast as Tobirama.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was able to guard Naruto from Obito's omnyouton, as you can see it moving at below. When Minato couldn't do shit.



Tf was Minato _actually_ supposed to do? He tried to warp to a mark that wasn't there. Please stop trying to put Susano'o on par with Minato, Tobirama, or other roof speedsters. 

If you really want to compare feats, then Tobirama wins with the one where he laid multiple explosive notes on a Godbito that was in the middle of a flash step.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Enlighten me. Where do you see "attack speed" in that quote?



 Kabuto doesn't have to perceive Minato's location instantly because his attack speed isn't instant.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kabuto doesn't have to perceive Minato's location instantly because his attack speed isn't instant.



I agree. He just has to be capable of reacting to Minato from point blank range after reacting to Hirashin. 

Which he isn't.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I agree. He just has to be capable of reacting to Minato from point blank range after reacting to Hirashin.
> 
> Which he isn't.



 Young B was, so what's stopping SM Kabuto from doing the same thing?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Young B was, so what's stopping SM Kabuto from doing the same thing?



lol.

This.

Infact SM Kabuto reactions would be even greater than B. Nobody compotent is getting blitzed 1v1 that easily.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Bee just anticipate Minato's moves and got lucky , while Obito and Juubito , can't even activate Kamui or move a finger in many FTG strikes ===>Bee's feat is just the luck of a begginer .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Bee just anticipate Minato's moves and got lucky , while Obito and Juubito , can't even activate Kamui or move a finger in many FTG strikes ===>Bee's feat is just the luck of a begginer .



I can't believe such a stupid post came from you after pages of debating. Really?

Grasping,

Hard.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

The stupid and absurd conclusion is thinking that base young Bee has more reflexes than JJ Obito and his moves are faster than instant Kamui activation . It's obvious that it was begginer luck , what would he did if Minato came from another spot , you haven't a counter to that , lol .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Well, we aren't the writers, I realize theres BS in the manga that makes zero sense.

Most of Minato's speed feats are in full scale battles, not so much 1v1 situations even though I am sure he has a few great 1v1 feats (I know of a few.) 

Kabuto isn't getting blitzed 1v1 with knowledge.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Well , Obito has knowledge and got blitzed , plus Minato has more advanced moves than Lvl2 , for example rsck , Kabuto can't know witch Kunai Minato will teleport , and he can lso instantly teleport to one of the other Kunais launched making him impossible to avoid .

But I agree he can't win just using a Rasengan , he must manage to seal him witch is a little more difficult .


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Young B was, so what's stopping SM Kabuto from doing the same thing?



Let me give you an analogy I've used before so you'll understand.

If I throw a 90mph fastball at Yogi Berra, he will catch the ball. 

If I materialize a 90mph fastball into existence inches away from Yogi Berra's face, he will not catch the ball.

If Yogi Berra is aware that a 90mph fastball has the potential to materialize into existence inches away from his face, he will _not_ magically become fast enough to catch a 90mph fastball if it materializes into existence inches away from his face.

If I tell Yogi Berra that I am going to count to three and then materialize the ball inches away from his face, he is then presented with the opportunity to place his glove in front of his face _before_ I materialize the ball inches away from it.

Kabuto is Yogi Berra. Minato is the ball. Minato with Hiraishin is the materializing ball. Killer B is Yogi Berra with the countdown. 

I hope this helped.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Let me give you an analogy I've used before so you'll understand.
> 
> If I throw a 90mph fastball at Yogi Berra, he will catch the ball.
> 
> ...



You might make a good teacher and all, but Kabuto having full knowledge on Hiraishin kind of sways things a bit. I realize you're probably going to say he isn't fast enough anyways, but consider what kind of defense Kabuto has.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Nov 7, 2015)

A fully masters MS user with other enchanced abilties is not going to be blitzed by anyone outside of god tier characters. Hell young Bee was able to anticipate Minatos moves in a matter of a short battle. Now SM Kabuto is 100x bee at that point


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If base Kabuto cannot react to v2 Raikage, and base Madara can react to v2 Raikage, then Madara has better reflexes than Kabuto. If you give them both Sage Mode, that isn't going to change.
> 
> Logic 101


You keep up bringing their base mode but like I said, it is completely irrelevant. 

Sage mode sensing doesn't increase an existing ability, it just gives them a new ability. 
Lets just focus on their sage incarnations.



> That's on Kabuto.
> 
> Dodging Sasuke's Susano'o is not comparable to dodging one of Minato or Tobirama's blitzes. Susano'o doesn't form as fast as Hiraishin and doesn't move as fast as Tobirama.



But there is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama or Minato have faster body speed than Susano'O.
There is also absolutely no evidence that their body speed is faster than Kabuto's.

Even if they are faster than Kabuto, we know that slower shinobi can react to faster ones, especially with enhanced precog/sensory abilties.
Refer to Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage.



> Tf was Minato _actually_ supposed to do? He tried to warp to a mark that wasn't there. Please stop trying to put Susano'o on par with Minato, Tobirama, or other roof speedsters.



I never claimed Susano'O is on par with Hirashin. I am just saying that neither Tobirama or Minato have any feats that differentiate their striking speed from Sasuke or Naruto or other characters around that ballpark. 

I'd say Sasuke stabbing Madara in their CQC exchange puts his body speed above Tobirama's.



> If you really want to compare feats, then Tobirama wins with the one where he laid multiple explosive notes on a Godbito that was in the middle of a flash step.


Offpanel feat, unquantifiable.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Kabuto having full knowledge on Hiraishin kind of sways things a bit.



_"If Yogi Berra is aware that a 90mph fastball has the potential to materialize into existence inches away from his face, he will not magically become fast enough to catch a 90mph fastball if it materializes into existence inches away from his face."_



Ghoztly said:


> consider what kind of defense Kabuto has.



I do not think Minato wins. I think he strips Kabuto of his soul with the death seal and then dies.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sage mode sensing doesn't increase an existing ability, it just gives them a new ability.



The "new ability" increases their perception, which is an existing ability of all humans.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But there is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama or Minato have faster body speed than Susano'O.



Since you'll probably come up with an excuse to ignore every feat I post (which I don't blame you for doing tbh, because many of them are plot bullshit), I'll just answer with "Minato & Tobirama get the benefit of the doubt."

Because they do. They're renowned for speed & reflexes. Susano'o is not. Since there is no evidence that Susano'o is faster than Minato or Tobirama, the benefit of doubt goes to the actual guys known for speed. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say Sasuke stabbing Madara in their CQC exchange puts his body speed above Tobirama's



Madara was actually casually dodging him while blind. But it's cool, 'cause Sasuke had super duper reflexes at that point, which Madara commented on. [1] 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Offpanel feat, unquantifiable.



It wasn't off-panel. That's like saying Itachi's feat of countering shared vision is unquantifiable because we didn't actually see him do it.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _"If Yogi Berra is aware that a 90mph fastball has the potential to materialize into existence inches away from his face, he will not magically become fast enough to catch a 90mph fastball if it materializes into existence inches away from his face."_
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think Minato wins. I think he strips Kabuto of his soul with the death seal and then dies.



Can't really argue with the second point.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The "new ability" increases their perception, which is an existing ability of all humans.


Nah, it is a completely new ability.

From the databook : 





> Basically in Sennin Modo by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers (what Naruto uses to evade Sandaime Raikages attack, Kabuto to sense Amaterasu, etc..). They can sense the enemies movement, match enemies rhythm/speed






> Since you'll probably come up with an excuse to ignore every feat I post (which I don't blame you for doing tbh, because many of them are plot bullshit), I'll just answer with "Minato & Tobirama get the benefit of the doubt."
> 
> Because they do. They're renowned for speed & reflexes. Susano'o is not. Since there is no evidence that Susano'o is faster than Minato or Tobirama, the benefit of doubt goes to the actual guys known for speed.


Sorry, but thats not a legit argument.
All Susano'o users are very fast shinobi with comparable reactions to Tobirama and Minato. 
And Minato and Tobirama are revered for Hirashin, not their body speed.

And when it comes to Kabuto, he gets the benefit of the doubt. 



> Madara was actually casually dodging him while blind. But it's cool, 'cause Sasuke had super duper reflexes at that point, which Madara commented on. [1]


Sasuke had the same reflexes and Kabuto was also blind.



> It wasn't off-panel. That's like saying Itachi's feat of countering shared vision is unquantifiable because we didn't actually see him do it.



But we did. Next chapter Kishimoto showed us how the Kunai came with curved trajectories and blinded the summons. Both explained and shown.

There is nothing about how Tobirama placed those tags while he was busy being ripped apart, literally. 100% offpanel.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, it is a completely new ability.



The Databook is literally describing enhanced perception. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sorry, but thats not a legit argument.



Yes it is.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> All Susano'o users are very fast shinobi with comparable reactions to Tobirama and Minato.



That's fantastic, but we're talking about Susano'o itself. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And Minato and Tobirama are revered for Hirashin, not their body speed.



They're renowned for both. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke had the same reflexes and Kabuto was also blind.



No & No.

Sasuke's perception increased yet again during the battle with Obito, and Kabuto wasn't blind. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But we did. Next chapter Kishimoto showed us how the Kunai came with curved trajectories and blinded the summons.



Sorry, we didn't see how he curved them. It's off-panel.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, it is a completely new ability.
> 
> From the databook :
> 
> ...



100% Thank you for pointing out that their normal speed isn't their goddamn Hiraishin speed. They have shown nothing that convinces me their shunshin or raw speed is any greater than ninja like Gai, Sasuke, Naruto or Itachi.

It's literally just Hiraishin that puts them over the others. 

I wish people would stop thinking they are in some next level status in terms of actual speed, they really aren't. All of their speed feats are Hiraishin. They are top notch in speed, but I doubt they are tiers above Sasuke and the rest.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

You are saying that because all ther attacks are FTG combos lol . Then give me an evidence making both Tobirama and Minato at only that level , sure you can't .


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> They have shown nothing that convinces me their shunshin or raw speed is any greater than ninja like Gai, Sasuke, Naruto or Itachi.



A degree of super speed and super reflexes are required to kill fifty ninja in the blink of an eye, regardless of whether or not you can teleport. 

Minato never uses the body flicker on-panel because he has Hiraishin, so I don't know how you're even comparing him to those guys. 

If you use hype, Minato wins.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A degree of super speed and super reflexes are required to kill fifty ninja in the blink of an eye, regardless of whether or not you can teleport.
> 
> Minato never uses the body flicker on-panel because he has Hiraishin, so I don't know how you're even comparing him to those guys.
> 
> If you use hype, Minato wins.



As I said, I realize he's at the top tier of speed, but there is no evidence suggesting he would shit on everyone else when it comes to your everyday speed. I am sure Guy or A could hang just fine. Even Sasuke was pretty up there in terms of speed. It's Hiraishin that got him his name.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Minato in base has a suer fast Shunshin ad it also made a part of his reputation  "you deserve to your title of yellow flash" :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Plus , according to Cee he has more reflexes than V2 Raikage , even without FTG , he still incredibly fast .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

I already said I realize that. Guy  (adult) or Naruto/ Sasuke weren't even around back then. That panel means nothing to me after what we have seen in this manga lol.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

And what we have seen , Juubi Jins ? Apart from them , and maybe Madara , the others aren't that fast , especially KCM Naruto who is limited to Base Bee's speed due to clone usage .


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato in base has a suer fast Shunshin ad it also made a part of his reputation  "you deserve to your title of yellow flash" :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Reflexes maybe, but V2 would smash his head in without use of the FTG. Guy in any gate would as well.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

KCM Naruto was at the same distance and he dodged him using ...Shunshin , you are not proving anything .


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Nor are you, as we are completely off topic. Kabuto has had way more supporters in this thread, and the arguments favor him greatly.

Minato gets wrecked imo. Speed isn't enough.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Speed+Fuinutsu , people generaly limit Minato to Shiki Fujin while he can use a lot of other sealing Jutsu like Shishou Fuin .


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I got one for you.
> 
> Kurama was noted to be fast by Sage Naruto's standards. [1]
> 
> ...



Minato did not warp to kushina. He used shunshin. Sheer speed he used to intercept kushina. No space time ninjutsu was used.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato did not warp to kushina. He used shunshin. Sheer speed he used to intercept kushina. No space time ninjutsu was used.



It was implied otherwise. [1]


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It was implied otherwise. [1]


Minatos marking was incorporated into kushinas seal, when the nine tails was extracted, that seal was removed. The exact same thing happened with naruto:


Come on  how coincidental that minato just so happened to teleport at the exact moment kushina was about to get crushed and still have time to react to the situation. He obviously tracked kushina to her location, saw that she was about to get crushed and then he swooped in to save her.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Fuck, you might be right.

But he was in his house, right? How did he get to Kushina?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

Jus a littl comparision between Minato's Shunshin and Sage Naruto :

*Spoiler*: _Minato_


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Databook is literally describing enhanced perception.


Nah, nature energy surrounds the user and shit. It is a new ability.



> Yes it is.


Its not. Giving them the benefit of doubt is your preference, it isn't based on evidence.



> That's fantastic, but we're talking about Susano'o itself.


I'm pretty sure Susano'o is just as fast as the user itself, if not faster.



> They're renowned for both.


Hmm, not really. I mean they are known to be fast shinobi yes, but we also know that Hirashin is what makes them stand above the rest. Both going by feats and portrayal, there is no need to assume that they would remain the same without it.




> No & No.
> 
> Sasuke's perception increased yet again during the battle with Obito, and Kabuto wasn't blind.


He blocked the light, so he was blind in the traditional sense. 
I am not sold about Sasuke tbh. He didn't recieve an upgrade or anything. 



> Sorry, we didn't see how he curved them. It's off-panel.


Kishimoto explained it, both visually and verbally. 
Either concede or find a different example.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A degree of super speed and super reflexes are required to kill fifty ninja in the blink of an eye, regardless of whether or not you can teleport.
> 
> Minato never uses the body flicker on-panel because he has Hiraishin, so I don't know how you're even comparing him to those guys.
> 
> If you use hype, Minato wins.



 It's because those ninja lack the perceptive capabilities or reflexes on par with top tier ninja. Most top tier ninja would anticipate where he places his tags, mentally process quickly where he's going to warp, and reacts accordingly.

 Him blitzing fodder doesn't imply he's capable of blitzing high tier ninja. Even Young B countered him after only 2 exchanges.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Most top tier ninja would anticipate where he places his tags, mentally process quickly where he's going to warp, and reacts accordingly.



That's actually impossible though. If you don't know when _and_ where he is going to warp, you aren't reacting to shit. If you _do_ know when & where he will go (Young B), you're being proactive, not reactive. 

Raikage, who has super duper _duper_ speed, attempted the _"mentally process quickly where he's going to warp and react accordingly"_ thing. Since Raikage never managed to catch Minato in any of the "many" bouts they had, I can safely say you are completely wrong.


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## thechickensage (Nov 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's because those ninja lack the perceptive capabilities or reflexes on par with top tier ninja. Most top tier ninja would anticipate where he places his tags, mentally process quickly where he's going to warp, and reacts accordingly.
> 
> Him blitzing fodder doesn't imply he's capable of blitzing high tier ninja. Even Young B countered him after only 2 exchanges.



it's not like he just has 2 tags, making it perfectly clear where he's going to blink to next.  

vs the highest level of opponents, he would just start playing a game of deception about which spot he'll show up next.  He can vary his long and short ranged attacks based on what his opponent expects

at best it becomes a dance of feints and deception


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

It wouldn't even matter if he had only two tags. People don't typically do well in responding to shit that pops into existence without forewarning. 

Normally, I couldn't stab Bruce Lee. If I can use Hiraishin, and I have Bruce Lee marked, and I can suddenly appear next to him – already in the process of stabbing him in the throat – while he's brushing his teeth before bed, he's going to die.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's actually impossible though. If you don't know when _and_ where he is going to warp, you aren't reacting to shit. If you _do_ know when & where he will go (Young B), you're being proactive, not reactive.



 Except that's entirely wrong. If you anticipate where he's going to warp and you're indeed correct, being proactive hurts you if you actually perform an undesirable maneuvor. Bee in his case, didn't do that. Instead, he reacted to Minato's attempt to blindside him by lunging a sword in his gut which prevented Minato from attacking. He certainly was reactive. 

 We also witnessed how he extended his tentacle * after * Minato warped as shown here:

 1

 So was indeed reactive to Minato's attacks after he warped. Him predicting where he's about to warp gives him an idea of where Minato will strike, so he can perceive Minato the moment he warps which gives you more time to react instead of either realizing Minato's location before it's too late or just outright being blitzed.



> Raikage, who has super duper _duper_ speed, attempted the _"mentally process quickly where he's going to warp and react accordingly"_ thing. Since Raikage never managed to catch Minato in any of the "many" bouts they had, I can safely say you are completely wrong.



 He couldn't react because he was caught in Max Shunshin. Had there been less momentum, he could've easily altered his position and reacted.


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## Clowe (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *And Basically MS Obito is the same despite his age since he is a looser , only Hashi cells and Madara's teaching enhanced his speed and level so that he can perceive speed Kage , even if he trains he will not rise his level that much .
> Kyubi's attack MS Obito=War Arc MS Obito* .


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Clowe said:


>


Tell me how he tranformed to the looser , one of the weakest Uchih clan members in strengh and talent (he said he is the black ship of his clan and a looser nothing like geius ninja) to one of the strongest Uchiha in history in one year . 


Are saying that any fodder Uchiha can became like that alone lol . Please don't joke arround . For the information , someone like Naruto managed o train the equivalent of 20 years non stop , it's as if he trained his whole life and even more and never managed to use rasengan wihtout clones until much more years of training using clone methode . Obito isn't different .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Tell me how he tranformed to the looser , one of the weakest Uchih clan members in strengh and talent (he said he is the black ship of his clan and a looser nothing like geius ninja) to one of the strongest Uchiha in history in one year .
> 
> 
> Are saying that any fodder Uchiha can became like that alone lol . Please don't joke arround . For the information , someone like Naruto managed o train the equivalent of 20 years non stop , it's as if he trained his whole life and even more and never managed to use rasengan wihtout clones until much more years of training using clone methode . Obito isn't different .




So basically your bias, hate Obito, and because of that he's weak and sucks.

Moving along... Minato either acts faster or Kabuto thinks faster is pretty much what I have concluded, genius right? Not really.

Kabuto just has so much BS to wade through.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

I just said what manga says , Obito is a loser with no talent , but he has a lot of genetical poer , he will never manage to follow Minato's moves in just one year while he wasn't able to see a fodder Jonin clone one year before even with Hagoromo as a sensei . The only way to explain that is genetical power , he has Hashi cells to boost drastically his level , and one of the stronget Dojutsu in history .

And you are wrong in one point , I am not talking about smartness but natural talent of mastering complex and huge number of Jutsu , the talent to use weapons and Taijutsu moves , talent to be faster than the ohers , that's what Iam talking about . Kabuto clearly has that kind of talent (althugh less than the likes of Minato) but he is lucking power and chakra or I would say genetical talent .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

I know what you're saying. He was a no talent scrub who got a massive power boost.

That still doesn't change he's powerful even if he got that power in a scrubby way.

We just were fed it and had to deal with it.

Yes I dislike Obito too, but he's powerful and it can't be denied.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

It's not that I dislik Obito , he is strong but it's pretty clear that his level didn't change since the Kyubi's attack . His MS version is still the same .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's not that I dislik Obito , he is strong but it's pretty clear that his level didn't change since the Kyubi's attack . His MS version is still the same .



I actually do agree with you, but you realize we are going to get attacked by 50 raging fans...? Ah well, might as well go all in.

Obito was a one trick pony, he didn't really show much of anything outside of Kamui. Everything he did was under Madara's guidance, he wasn't even his own person. He got mass trolled and was handed an incredible power in Kamui and made good use of it like any no talent who got handed a goddamn power boost would do.

That help?

Kabuto is on a whole different level than MS Obito but that's just IMO.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 8, 2015)

Saying Obito didn't improve at all over the course of sixteen years is a bit out there. He became more seasoned, but at the end of the day, what makes him a threat is Kamui and it operates the same sixteen years later. Adult MS Obito wasn't some monster compared to his fourteen/fifteen year old self; both can give most Kage a run for their money. 

His former sensei had his number until he popped a rinnegan into his empty eye socket.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Fuck, you might be right.
> 
> But he was in his house, right? How did he get to Kushina?


Probably sensed where she was and sprinted/shunshined to her. Its like when he reached the battlefield much faster than all the other hokage. Hes just really quick i imagine.


----------



## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Fuck, you might be right.
> 
> But he was in his house, right? How did he get to Kushina?



What are the chances that Minato used something other than Hiraishin, just after it's specifically noted that Minato can use Hiraishin to reach Kushina any time? None. This is a device that has been used by Kishimoto throughout the series, when a character X goes exposition-mode.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Probably sensed where she was and sprinted/shunshined to her. Its like when he reached the battlefield much faster than all the other hokage. Hes just really quick i imagine.



He used Hiraishin, and that's made abundantly clear when Tobirama—the other Hiraishin-user—makes a comparison. This was further substantiated when Hashirama instructed Tobirama to prepare Hiraishin to teleport the Hokage to the battlefield.

Minato just got ahead, because for the duration, his Hiraishin was faster than Tobirama's primitive version—something Kishimoto overrode 7-8 chapters later.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Kuhsina's FTG mark was removed by Obito it was sticked to Kurama's seal , that's why he said that Minato wouldn't come , but apparently it was the second time he was impressed by his Shunshin in the flash-back .


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## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Kuhsina's FTG mark was removed by Obito it was sticked to Kurama's seal , that's why he said that Minato wouldn't come , but apparently it was the second time he was impressed by his Shunshin in the flash-back .



I addressed exactly that, or at least _tried_ to. 

> Minato placed a Hiraishin marker, I see...
> Minato appears a second later.
> Not Hiraishin.



Unless the translation is wrong, he only said that he managed to separate her from Minato or he got away. He isn't talking about the marker.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Not quite. He threw the kunai and jumped to it _after_ Kakashi used Kamui. It's just shown afterwards, because the author was depicting three people in action. The three panels (5th, 6th and 7th) are simply elaborations of the panels in the top row, observed from a different perspective to show the effect.


He threw a kunai 30m and arrived with Rasengan in SM before Kakashi could complete a Kamui he started before the kunai was thrown.

This is the kind of speed SM Kabuto can't compete with, because he wouldn't even be able to avoid/perceive/react to Kamui - an attack that Minato blitzed 30m prior to it completing. Dude was literally making moves as this portal was being generated, and finished his blitz before it even partially opened.

OP made the right move increasing the distance, but even 60m won't save him, he may well counter the first, but the second blitz attempt he generates from a kunai  that he threw at start and arrived within 30m vicinity of Kabuto will result in him warping to that kunai, and throwing several others from inside 30m of his vincinity, and that results in Minato beheading or him being tagged with FTG - which is GG as well as he'd warp him right into a kunai slash or into an 8 trigrams ritual table.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

> > Minato appears a second later.


The FTG  mark was removed with the seal at that second lol .


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## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> He threw a kunai 30m and arrived with Rasengan in SM before Kakashi could complete a Kamui he started before the kunai was thrown.



That's not what I said.

Minato threw the kunai and jumped to it, after the event depicted in the 6th panel is shown. That is, he didn't outspeed Kamui, because he made a move after Kakashi had already used Kamui.

When Kakashi uses Kamui in the second panel, it's simply shown in the sixth panel. It's the same instance, observed differently. It's like if you were facing Kakashi, you'd see the second panel, but if you were standing beside Kakashi, you'd see the sixth panel.



hbcaptain said:


> The FTG  mark was removed with the seal at that second lol .



By any chance, are you using the instance with Naruto to argue that notion?


----------



## ARGUS (Nov 8, 2015)

im just throwing it out there. 
but DSM kabuto overwhelmed Itachi in a CQC brawl whereas Itachi was matching and keeping up with KCM naruto in CQC just fine. 

even if FTG gives minato an upperhand in the speed department. the more he comes up close the more the likelihood of him eventually getting tagged 

and im still not understaning what minato can even do here to a person that can: 
 -- make himself dangerous to touch through kimimaros bones coming out of hs body 
 -- turn himself to water to negate every physical attack 
 -- regen and use oral rebirth from any other attacks 
 -- catch minato from sound after spreading himself as water and popping out at minatos back 
 -- catch and blind minato from white rage. 

as for portrayal, the mere fact that kishi pitted kabuto against both the uchiha bros. makes me think that Kabuto is defintely above base minato 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You keep up bringing their base mode but like I said, it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> Sage mode sensing doesn't increase an existing ability, it just gives them a new ability.
> Lets just focus on their sage incarnations.
> ...


while i dont necessarily agree with your points, i do understand them, 
as for the bold. It not sasukes body speed that puts him above Tobirama, but his reactions and precognitions from the sharingan that allowed him to tag Madara. and we see madara complimenting his movements because of his choku tomo as well 

but yes. the fact that sasuke tagged madara on a head on CQC exchange puts him higher than tobirama since he failed after catching madara off guard with a sneak hirashingiri 

though tobirama did face a much stronger madara. who gained more rikudo chakra after gaining the rinnegan


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

> Minato threw the kunai and jumped to it, after the event depicted in the 6th panel is shown. That is, he didn't outspeed Kamui, because he made a move after Kakashi had already used Kamui.


But Kamui aspiration is slo , Minato's moves are faster .



> By any chance, are you using the instance with Naruto to argue that notion?


Yeah , while Minato was busy , Obito break he seal and remove it s basically FTG mark placd on it was removed as well .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

> Minato threw the kunai and jumped to it, after the event depicted in the 6th panel is shown. That is, he didn't outspeed Kamui, because he made a move after Kakashi had already used Kamui.


He clearly outsped it, the Kamui is activated prior to the kunai being shown landing at the location - because the author chose to draw Kamui being activated before the kunai falls at Madara. 



> When Kakashi uses Kamui in the second panel, it's simply shown in the sixth panel. It's the same instance, observed differently. It's like if you were facing Kakashi, you'd see the second panel, but if you were standing beside Kakashi, you'd see the sixth panel.


That's your opinion.

The author chose to draw Kumai activated first, then we see the kunai landing at Madara after that.

Even so, he enters SM and uses FTG to arrive at Madara having also created a Rasengan - and the warp hole isn't even partially opened by this point. So even if the kunai was thrown at the same time as Kamui was activated, and not after, it still got there before Kamui completed, and Madara still had time to 
1. Enter SM
2. Create a Rasengan
3. FTG to the Kunai

This proves that his mental cognition is ballparks outside of what SM Kabuto is capable of, because he made three moves before Kamui finished. On top of that, the least I'd be willing to give you is he threw the kunai at the same time Kamui was activated - yet the thing still arrived 30m away at Madara prior to Kamui warping Obito - which it never did. 

Meaning Minato can literally kill people with kunai throws faster than Kakashi can Kamui them.


----------



## ARGUS (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He threw a kunai 30m and arrived with Rasengan in SM before Kakashi could complete a Kamui he started before the kunai was thrown.



I have seen you use this example. but that doesnt make minatos movements faster than kamui itself
especially when he needed FTG to canonically evade kamui meaning his physical speeed was clearly not enough 
if minato can do all that then he wouldnt have resorted to last minute FTG against obito 

kakashi actually used kamui even after gaara used his sand defense to halt madara. 
so it went from: 
 -- minato being the decoy to attack madara 
 -- gaara forming a shield to block obito before madara attacks minato and gets through 
 -- kakashi then warping obito




> This is the kind of speed SM Kabuto can't compete with, *because he wouldn't even be able to avoid/perceive/react to Kamui* - an attack that Minato blitzed 30m prior to it completing. Dude was literally making moves as this portal was being generated, and finished his blitz before it even partially opened.


Kabuto being unable to react to Kamui is a mere speculation 
we dont exactly know the limits of his reactions. he may not be physically evading it. 
but he has other measures and he can probably mentally react to it 



> OP made the right move increasing the distance, but even 60m won't save him, he may well counter the first, but the second blitz attempt he generates from a kunai  that he threw at start and arrived within 30m vicinity of Kabuto will result in him warping to that kunai, and throwing several others from inside 30m of his vincinity, and that results in Minato beheading or him being tagged with FTG - which is GG as well as he'd warp him right into a kunai slash or into an 8 trigrams ritual table.



How can minato behead someone who can literally turn into water. 
what good are kunais even gonna do. when kabuto himself knows that minatos attacks are useless to him 

im unsure about 8 trigrams ritual table but for that minato actually needed kushinas help to bind the target.  
he is not binding kabuto here


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

> I have seen you use this example. but that doesnt make minatos movements faster than kamui itself
> especially when he needed FTG to canonically evade kamui meaning his physical speeed was clearly not enough
> if minato can do all that then he wouldnt have resorted to last minute FTG against obito


I use the example because it instantly upgraded Base Minato's speed an entire tier. No one seemed to take notice when it happened, which is why I'm left having to continuously bring the example up. 

War-arc Minato is faster then Living Minato, and no - I'm not referring to KCM or BM Minato.

I'm referring to the Minato who reacted & teleported away Truthseekers, and the Minato who threw a kunai 30m before Kamui ate up a stationary person. 



> kakashi actually used kamui even after gaara used his sand defense to halt madara.
> so it went from:
> -- minato being the decoy to attack madara
> -- gaara forming a shield to block obito before madara attacks minato and gets through
> -- kakashi then warping obito


Are you blind?

[1]

>Gaara activates wall
>Kakashi activates Kamui
>Minato's kunai arrives beyond sand wall
>Minato enters SM
>Minato warps to kunai
>Minato has a Rasengan he already created 
>Minato gets slashed, kicked 
>Kakashi Kamui still hasn't completed 

Conclusion: Minato can throw a kunai 30m, enter SM, create a Rasengan with it, use FTG and be shit on twice by Judara before Kamui can complete. 



> Kabuto being unable to react to Kamui is a mere speculation
> we dont exactly know the limits of his reactions. he may not be physically evading it.
> but he has other measures and he can probably mentally react to it


It's speculation on your part, based on feats he's no where near capable of doing this.

Kabuto's greatest reaction/reflex feature was avoiding a Susano Arrow by less than a foot. Susano arrows aren't faster than FRS, which is what Deva Path and Sandaime Raikage reacted and reflex dodged. Both of those ninja are on SM Naruto's speed level. SM Kabuto is no more reflexive, reactive or quicker than SM Naruto. 

His greatest movement feature was being reacted to by Edo Itachi, met half way by Edo Itachi's shunshin and blocked with a blade.

Minato's kunais move 30m before Kamui can complete (faster than SM Kabuto's shunshin), he's reacted to Kamui, Truthseekers and V2 Ei (faster than SM Kabuto's reactions). 



> How can minato behead someone who can literally turn into water.
> what good are kunais even gonna do. when kabuto himself knows that minatos attacks are useless to him


He can't, I literally proved that a number of times.

I'm not going to re-post the several examples of Kabuto avoiding physical attacks. 

Dude literally went for a blade to cut his own tail free because he couldn't liquefy it to remove himself from a Susano Arrow planting him to the ceiling.

>Itachi cut his horn (part of his head)
>Sasuke grabbed him with Susano arm
>Sasuke penetrated his tail with a Susano arrow, hinging him to the cieling
>He can't completely liquefy, or his horn wouldn't have been severed, and his body wouldn't have been grappled, his tail wouldn't have been pierced 

>I posted other examples of him avoiding physical attacks that he could've simply liquefied through and continued attacking
>He clearly can't liquefy, or he'd of done it in those situations and continued toward his opponents without sustaining damage from the physical attack



> im unsure about 8 trigrams ritual table but for that minato actually needed kushinas help to bind the target.
> he is not binding kabuto here


Doesn't need to bind him, once he's tagged he's literally warped into a ritual circle that seals him.


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## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> But Kamui aspiration is slo , Minato's moves are faster .



It isn't, really. But that's not the point.



> Yeah , while Minato was busy , Obito break he seal and remove it s basically FTG mark placd on it was removed as well .



I wouldn't really look to war-arc, post Hokage entrance, for justifications of the previously occured events, unless they were crucial for the story. My point is fairly straight-forward. Why would Obito specifically mention that Minato placed a marker on Kushina to reach her anytime, only for the guy to show up a second later. As I said, this type of expository dialogue has been used by Kishimoto throughout to explain the events taking places. There's no point in highlighting that Kushina had a marker placed on her, if Minato wasn't going to use Hiraishin. He certainly didn't make a point that he will remove it, so Minato can't reach anymore. 



DaVizWiz said:


> That's your opinion.
> 
> The author chose to draw Kumai activated first, then we see the kunai landing at Madara after that.
> 
> ...



That's not my opinion?read that page carefully. 1?Why did the desert wall "wait" for the other two (Kakashi and Minato) to do their thing, when it should have been erected the second, Gaara stumped his hands on the ground? The fifth panel (middle one) clearly shows it being formed (read the SFX). 2?Why was Madara's assumed stance the same as the page before and the one before that, when he should naturally be reacting to the kunai that just landed infront of him? There's still no Kamui formation at this point. In other words, Kamui was "on-hold" while Minato threw a kunai that covered a measurable distance, and entered Sage Mode (which takes too much time); and the desert wall was formed completely. Even if you were to argue Kamui is slow, which it isn't, that's still too much time.

Would you argue that that Itachi fired the Magatama before Bee used the Bijuudama? They are concurrent events, and the author makes it clear when he's drawing such events. This, however, wasn't one. He's depicting three fighters in action, each making a move after the other. The 5th, 6th and 7th panels (effect) are aligned with their respective "cause" panels. Gaara used Sabakuha first, so it's the first of the techniques to be shown. Kakashi follows with Kamui, so it's shown after that. Likewise, Minato is shown at the end, because he made a move after that.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Bro, Gaara put up a sand wall faster than Kamui completed, Minato threw the kunai, entered SM, made a rasengan and arrived at the kunai faster than Kamui completed. Minato's kunai arrived there faster than the sand wall was created, and faster than Kamui completed. 

There is no argument, it's self-explanatory, read the panel, don't bring other shit into it.


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## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Bro, Gaara put up a sand wall faster than Kamui completed, Minato threw the kunai, entered SM, made a rasengan and arrived at the kunai faster than Kamui completed. Minato's kunai arrived there faster than the sand wall was created, and faster than Kamui completed.



Bro, no. Kakashi used Kamui only after Gaara used Sabakuha. It's called a coordinated attack. There's no point in creating a blockade between the target and the target's target, if you have already warped the target.



> There is no argument, it's self-explanatory, read the panel, don't bring other shit into it.



Exactly. There's no argument. That pictorial representation makes it abundantly clear that the page is not supposed to be read in a right-left sequence. You can also pardon the author that it's not possible to show the cause and effect in a single frame.


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Bro, no. Kakashi used Kamui only after Gaara used Sabakuha. It's called a coordinated attack. There's no point in creating a blockade between the target and the target's target, if you have already warped the target.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. There's no argument. That pictorial representation makes it abundantly clear that the page is not supposed to be read in a right-left sequence. You can also pardon the author that it's not possible to show the cause and effect in a single frame.



Sure Kakashi is a very fast speedster. But bro, didn't you know that Kakashi can blitz people exactly as fast as 6th Gate powered Gai can do (actually even a lot better, since Kakashi has precognition due to Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan)? It's not like it's a coordinated effort, absolutely not 



Also, as you can see, Kakashi's blitz is faster than 6th Gate Gai's blitz, since Kakashi is showed an inch ahead of him when both are dashing toward the V2 Bijuu, and since Kakashi's first successful hit is in the panel before Gai's first successful hit, meaning that he blitzed and hit faster than Gai 

Minato barely reacted and used Hiraishin (with just mental thought, no kunai throwing) against Obito's Kamui, which is slower than Kakashi's mastered long range version, that Minato couldn't perceive even when watching right on where it was used. How could Minato outspeed it so much is out of the world, but it actually is not when one can see how it was a coordinated effort where Gaara waited to raise his sand for Minato to launch his kunai in front of Madara, Minato waited to use Hiraishin in front of Madara to Gaara to raise his sand wall, and Kakashi waited for both to use Kamui on Obito's body. Everything so they could theoretically land a surprise successfully attack on Madara and take away Obito with Madara's other Rinnegan.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

That page is all kinds of fucked up. Even if you want to roll with Kamui not being activated until we see the distortion appear around Obito, Minato still warped to Madara, got murked, and had his arm kicked thirty meters back at Kakashi before Kamui could warp Obito. 

That doesn't make any sense, because Kamui is supposed to be fast.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

V2 Jinchuriki are just a dead body's controled by Obito , they are nothing to do a real V2 like V2 Bee , even weakened KCM Naruto who is just as fast as base Bee managed to keep up with three of them , especially that Sharingan and rinnegan's perception is desactivated due to V2 chakra armour , and basically :

weakened KCM Naruto(due to clone usage)=Base Bee<<V1 Bee<KCM Naruto=V1 Raikage<V2 Bee<V2 Raikage

If Kakashi doesn't even manage to rivals those guys , then he is really slow compared to base Sasuke , base Bee , base Raikage etc ... Even Gyuki managed to catch the supposed super fast V2 Jins while they all attack at the same time .

Kakashi didn't waited to use human size Kamui since their goal was to wrap Obito , apart if he is an idiot .


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Bro, no. Kakashi used Kamui only after Gaara used Sabakuha. It's called a coordinated attack. There's no point in creating a blockade between the target and the target's target, if you have already warped the target.
> 
> Exactly. There's no argument. That pictorial representation makes it abundantly clear that the page is not supposed to be read in a right-left sequence. You can also pardon the author that it's not possible to show the cause and effect in a single frame.


Right-left sequence is how the manga is written.

>Kamui used first, Kakashi closes right eye, Kamui is literally stated and his eye is focused in MS 
>Kunai arrives after
>SM, Rasengan, FTG, hit twice by Judara
>Kakashi still didn't complete or even partially open Kamui

Minato blitzes 30m (arguably further if he doesn't have to enter SM & make rasengan) before Kamui completes. 

You have no argument, Minato can snipe ninja with kunai faster than Kamui can snipe them.

>Canon


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Not to mention Gaara could lift his sand before Kamui could warp Obito as well.

Kishi shouldn't drink that much when he makes the manga.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

He literally moved sand up to a position before 8th Gated Gai could reach a target 10m away.

Gaara's sand is fast, this isn't really something new. Blocking V2 Ei & Enton at the literal last possible fraction of a second is another great example.


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

I wonder why Minato throws kunai and uses them to blitz people thanks to the instant teleporting with the Hiraishin marks, instead of just throwing kunai into people's heads which is much easier and less risking since he doesn't even need to approach them


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Kamui isn't that fast.
Itachi fired the Magatama



Raikiri19 said:


> I wonder why Minato throws kunai and uses them to blitz people thanks to the instant teleporting with the Hiraishin marks, instead of just throwing kunai into people's heads which is much easier and less risking since he doesn't even need to approach them



I remember there were some people who claimed that Minato can throw kunai faster than V2 A can move


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He literally moved sand up to a position before 8th Gated Gai could reach a target 10m away.
> 
> Gaara's sand is fast, this isn't really something new. Blocking V2 Ei & Enton at the literal last possible fraction of a second is another great example.



Gaara himself said "my sand is too slow to help you" referred to Gai.

Maybe Gai was slowing down to let people support him, but that's a maybe 

But hey, I'm fine with Rock Lee able to throw kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move an inch, and with almost blind Kakashi being able to use person-sized Kamui warps far faster than 8th Gate Gai can move.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 8, 2015)

Minato reacted to 8th gate Gai btw.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I wonder why Minato throws kunai and uses them to blitz people thanks to the instant teleporting with the Hiraishin marks, instead of just throwing kunai into people's heads which is much easier and less risking since he doesn't even need to approach them


It's called plot. 

I'd love to see a dude sniping people with kunai throws, but that'd be almost as anti-climatic as KCM Naruto spamming shunshin in the war, which was also restricted due to plot. 

Bottom line is that feat proves he can literally kill people with kunai faster than an already activated Kamui can even partially wound them. 



Raikiri19 said:


> Gaara himself said "my sand is too slow to help you" referred to Gai.
> 
> Maybe Gai was slowing down to let people support him, but that's a maybe
> 
> But hey, I'm fine with Rock Lee able to throw kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move an inch, and with almost blind Kakashi being able to use person-sized Kamui warps far faster than 8th Gate Gai can move.


Irrelevant what he said, clearly proved he could help them when he raised Kakashi to open the Goudama wall for Gai.

Not really that big of a surprise when normal humans can throw baseballs which are comparable in weight to these kunai 100mph, and can't even run at half that speed.

Minato's physical strength, and hand speed, allow him to throw projectiles over an extended distance before Kamui can complete.


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He literally moved sand up to a position before 8th Gated Gai could reach a target 10m away.
> 
> Gaara's sand is fast, this isn't really something new. Blocking V2 Ei & Enton at the literal last possible fraction of a second is another great example.



I think both, his teamwork to phase Obito and to help Gai hit Juudara was just because it was coordinated. I don't see Gaara moving sand at 8th gated Gai speeds, nor Lee outspeeding 8th gated Gai with a kunai.

I mean, his sand was having troubles with Joki Boy. And 8th gated sand speed would boost Gaara's tier to the roof, i guess.


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## Yoko (Nov 8, 2015)

I guess Kakashi's fastest attack isn't Kamui, but the kunai he reactively tossed that practically caught up with an already in-motion Truthseeker.  

He should have never even bothered with the jutsu.


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kamui isn't that fast.
> kunai he reactively tossed
> 
> 
> ...



Lol Kamui is hella hella fast, sadly.


*Spoiler*: __ 



- Kakashi can canonically warp a human body part (an head sized object) in the same time Obito needs to make it intangible and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto rushing to attack Obito *(1)**(2)*
- Kakashi warps away two Susanoo arrows when both are already at half their way and his Sharingan was still the 3T one *(3)**(4)*
- Kakashi warps away Minato's Rasengan countered by Juudara really in no time *(5)*, Minato's arm kicked from Madara was hella fast if we think that Minato's body (obviously heavier and so less fast of the arm) went on Gaara so fast that his auto-defense couldn't activate in time *(6)*; it also was a completely surprise attack that suddenly come out from Gaara's sand wall that blocked Kakashi's LoS *(7)*.
- Kakashi warps away a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara is already summoning it away with instant space-time summoning jutsu *(8)* (Minato couldn't do anything in that situation than ask Kakashi taking care of it, Minato of all people couldn't even perceived what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, and had to ask him if he managed to kill it in time). Madara praised the feat and Kakashi's worthy as a doujutsu user.
- Kakashi feints to warp Naruto's Rasengan and then insta-warps away his body before Obito's Kamui propelled stakes could hit him even with a point blank shot (before Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm), managing to make Obito think that Kakashi missed and he succesfully hit the clone *(9)**(10)**(11)* when actually Kakashi changed his warp from Naruto's Rasengan to his entire body, warping it with such speed and timing that Obito (with full knowledge *(12)* and top tier reactions boosted by Mangekyo and Rinnegan eyes) couldn't notice or perceive it. That was when Kakashi was moving fast *(13)**(14)* and wasn't that close to the objective *(15)*.
- Kakashi with a Kurama chakra supply (that was said to have increased 3x the power of his jutsu) could warp the Hachibi in the Kamui dimension and then re-warp it in the real world, and then finished all the chakra *(16)**(17)**(18)*. Taking on account that Kakashi used also some chakra right before to travel between the Kamui world and the real world, I'd say it is pretty much clear that without any chakra supply he can warp a mass that is slightly bigger than 1/3 of the Hachibi (so also Kamui GG his head or any Bijuu's head with relative ease, with the fast execution shown against the Gedo Mazo... or things like a V4 Susanoo from Itachi).

Kakashi can Kamui away human head sized objects in a more or less instant time and even with fast moving objects/people and unpredictable situations. And he can Kamui away human body sized objects in also nearly istant times, and even giant objects, faster than people like Rinnegan + MS Obito or Edo Minato can perceive.

With a non perfected Kamui, as at the time he couldn't perfectly control the size and the position of the space-time barrier for his own admission (*19*), Kakashi could have an Akatsuki like Deidara as his bitch (*20*)(*21*), warp away Deidara's fast and giant explosion in a second (*22*) and then was sure he could have defeated another one like Kakuzu (he said that if Naruto and the others didn't come, he would have used Mangekyo to defend from Kakuzu's attack and defeat him, then having to go to the hospital for some rest because of all the chakra spent (*23*)).

Not even going with DMS Rikudo Kakashi that can use Kamui so fast that it outspeeds Kaguya's S/T *()**()* that blitzed Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke *(26)**(27)* and nearly blitzed Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto, both able to casually react to Juubi Madara's Rinbo which certainly is "fast".




You have Obito and KCM Naruto one attacking the another seem literally slow compared to a head-sized Kamui warp from Kakashi.


*Spoiler*: __ 









He can let go a kunai and Hiraishin away from it and to it faster than Ei can move, yes. But throwing it faster than Ei can dash is another thing, which is obviously not possible. But there are people who think that Lee can throw a kunai so fast that the kunai outspeeds 8th Gate Gai by far, so... I mean, Lee can casually kill Nagato throwing a kunai through his head before he can do anything, if Nagato gives him just one second to open 6th Gate. And with scaling, base Lee should be able to kill at least Mei Terumi or Darui or someone on that level by just throwing a kunai to her 

That means that Itachi is more dangerous with his kunai throwing than with Totsuka and Tsukuyomi


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Since when Kunais can kill Raikages , Juubi Jins .... I really wonder . Just for example , weapons were always fast , Sage Kabuto can't evade Sasuke's sword (always touching his tail) , Kunais are always blocked not dodged , etc . Since Minato is a Kunais specialized Kage , then his kunais are just that fast .


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's called plot.
> 
> I'd love to see a dude sniping people with kunai throws, but that'd be almost as anti-climatic as KCM Naruto spamming shunshin in the war, which was also restricted due to plot.
> 
> ...



Gaara's sand was too slow to catch Jokey Boy. But that wasn't his gourd sand, maybe. Let's say Gaara's gourd sand is 10 times faster than his normal sand. Which is a lot, a lot, a lot generous to Gaara. Isn't 8th Gate Gai much, much, much more than 10 times faster than Jokey Boy???

Why do you think Kakashi deemed unmastered Kamui as a long range attack worthier than just aim on Deidara and throw a kunai to his head?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

There is a huge difference between activating Jutsus and moving it , Ribcage Susano'o is instantly activated , but his hand's seed isn't fast enough to grap the likes of Sage Kabuto , same goes for Gaara's sand , he can instantly activate a shield as he did to stop Amaterasu but his sand moves isn't fast enought to touch Madara or Muu , it's that simple .


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I think both, his teamwork to phase Obito and to help Gai hit Juudara was just because it was coordinated. I don't see Gaara moving sand at 8th gated Gai speeds, nor Lee outspeeding 8th gated Gai with a kunai.
> 
> I mean, his sand was having troubles with Joki Boy. And 8th gated sand speed would boost Gaara's tier to the roof, i guess.


Coordinate my ass, he had no reason to delay with Kamui, the sand wall meant nothing as it relates to him warping a wide open walking Obito. 



Yoko said:


> I guess Kakashi's fastest attack isn't Kamui, but the kunai he reactively tossed that practically caught up with an already in-motion Truthseeker.
> 
> He should have never even bothered with the jutsu.


Based on that feat sure.

Based on that situation, no.

If he wanted to kill Obito he'd of done it when he had him pinned down with a kunai in his hand, regardless of Minato's interruption. 

It was clear he chose Kamui to imprison Obito in boxland without killing him. 



Raikiri19 said:


> Gaara's sand was too slow to catch Jokey Boy. But that wasn't his gourd sand, maybe. Let's say Gaara's gourd sand is 10 times faster than his normal sand. Which is a lot, a lot, a lot generous to Gaara. Isn't 8th Gate Gai much, much, much more than 10 times faster than Jokey Boy???
> 
> Why do you think Kakashi deemed unmastered Kamui as a long range attack worthier than just aim on Deidara and throw a kunai to his head?


High end feats > Low end feats 

KCM Naruto was intercepted by V1 Raikage twice while shunshining failing to get around him (Low end feat). 

KCM Naruto avoided V2 Raikage's fastest attack with shunshin getting around him (High end feat).


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Okay?

6th Gated Lee armed with a kunai already has the ability to snipe HK levels. 

Is this something new to you, Rocky?

Bonly loves using that argument.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

I will not stop you if you want to advocate for god tier Minato or v3 kunai.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

It's not relevant whether you stop or not.

The manga literally proved Lee can throw kunai faster than Truthseekers.

They don't suddenly get slower because the kid did something surprising. The kid gets the truthseeker-kunai-throwing speed.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

The manga contradicts itself all of the time.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

That's not a contradiction, 6th Gated Lee has never thrown a kunai prior to that.

That is the speed of his kunai throw in that mode.

Had someone like Karin dodged it previously, it'd be a contradiction.


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## Yoko (Nov 8, 2015)

The point of my post isn't to say Kakashi should have thrown a kunai at Obito in that instance.  The point was to highlight how nonsensical certain feats are if we adamantly take them at face value and don't allow any wiggle room for realistic interpretations (such as what LostSelf proposed, which I find valid).  

Kakashi's kunai throws have not been depicted to possess double-Kamui level speeds and yet if we take that scan at face value, that's exactly what the takeaway would be.   

And yet Kamui has been hyped for its speed time and time again.  Kunai throws haven't.


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## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> High end feats > Low end feats
> 
> KCM Naruto was intercepted by V1 Raikage twice while shunshining failing to get around him (Low end feat).
> 
> KCM Naruto avoided V2 Raikage's fastest attack with shunshin getting around him (High end feat).



It's just that Naruto wasn't serious at first, and was dead serious at the end. And also the fact that max chakra Shunshin can't be spammed.


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## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Right-left sequence is how the manga is written.



I know that, which is why I took time to explain how the 5th and subsequent panels were mapped to panels in the top-row. In that sense, they do form a sequence. Gaara went out first; his technique is shown first. However, Sabakuha didn't form after Minato entered Sage Mode. It formed when Gaara used it. Once again, The author is depicting three people in action?the page accomodates for all three.



> You have no argument, Minato can snipe ninja with kunai faster than Kamui can snipe them.
> 
> >Canon



I had an argument, which you didn't bother to address, instead discarding it as:



DaVizWiz said:


> There is no argument, it's self-explanatory, read the panel, *don't bring other shit into it*.



The bolded part apparently constituted a simple explanation of what was drawn in the page under consideration, and a side example of when the author does concurrent sequences.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

People always forgetting distance , we normal humans can see planes flying at sound speed , why simply because of distance . 

Now , we are talking about Naruto charaters , Kakashi was surely ten/twenty times closer to Gai that's why his Kunai reached his positionon par with GudoDama .

Rock Lee was ten/twenty times closer to Madara's GudoDama , that's why the FTG Kunai managed to them before red Gai , FTG is instanous , that's why Minato managed to teleport them even if red Gai was very close . It's that simple , people are just making things much more complex .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Yoko said:


> The point of my post isn't to say Kakashi should have thrown a kunai at Obito in that instance.  The point was to highlight how nonsensical certain feats are if we adamantly take them at face value and don't allow wiggle room for realistic interpretations (such as what LostSelf proposed, which I find valid).
> 
> Kakashi's kunai throws have not been depicted to possess double-Kamui level speeds and yet if we take that scan at face value, that's exactly what the takeaway would be.
> 
> And yet Kamui has been hyped for its speed time and time again.  Kunai throws haven't.


There's a truthseeker there to compare the kunai speed to.

I see nothing else that needs to be brought into it. What is the speed of the kunai compared to the truthseeker?

Hype, portrayal, all irrelevant as it pertains to feats. 



Raikiri19 said:


> It's just that Naruto wasn't serious at first, and was dead serious at the end. And also the fact that max chakra Shunshin can't be spammed.


Ridiculous notion, he had a world fighting a war over his safety.

If he could only get past that guy to help them... if only....

KCM Naruto's shunshin improved considerably (equal to V1 Raikage, superior to V2 Raikage) in the span of less than 5 minutes. 

He had as much motivation to get around him prior to him going V2, as he did when he went V2. 

There are hundreds of other examples though. No feat is similar, therefore every ninja has high end and low end feats, many with extreme gaps.

If I told you that Kakashi's feat of reacting to and intercepting V2 Sharingan Jins was due to plot, you'd scold me.

But the reality is prior to that he had nowhere near that kind of speed. He improved nearly a tier in speed with that feature.

Just as Minato improved a definite tier with his kunai throw feature.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ridiculous notion, he had a world fighting a war over his safety.
> 
> If he could only get past that guy to help them... if only....



And he had his chakra divided by 14 or 15 times, don't forget. Also plot reasons.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not a contradiction, 6th Gated Lee has never thrown a kunai prior to that.



You are not accounting for plot. Plot makes weird shit happen.

Raikage vs Naruto & B is a prime example.

V1 Raikage ran in front of Naruto's flicker and punched him like four times, literally no-sold B's Lariat, and then threw B's body into a yet-again-flickering Naruto. 

Suddenly, the plot makes an appearance. 

Now, B's Lariat overpowers v2 Raikage's Lariat because "lessons" and Naruto's flicker outspeeds v2 Raikage's flicker because "my dad's a hero." 

It's retarded.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Now , we are talking about Naruto charaters , Kakashi was surely ten/twenty times closer to Gai that's why his Kunai reached his positionon par with GudoDama .
> .



This is false.

Madara slid back what looks like maybe 7 meters in the top left panel.

Kakashi was much farther away judging by Gai's initial Shunshin, and Gai only got farther away from Kakashi as he pushed forward against Madara.

Kakashi was farther away from Gai than Madara was, yet threw a kunai that pretty much caught up with a Truthseeker despite the Truthseeker having a solid lead time over it (Minato tossed the kunai to Kakashi _after_ the Truthseeker was launched).

So in any Kakashi threads, we should ignore entertaining the notion of him using any jutsu whatsoever.  Instead, he should immediately resort to Raikiri imbued kunai tosses that rival the speed of double-Kamui.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> And he had his chakra divided by 14 or 15 times, don't forget. Also plot reasons.


And yet he literally avoided, and got around a much faster attack from the same guy minutes later. 

If you want, I will bring up different low end and high end feats.

Are you literally debating the fact that there exists low end and high end feats in this manga?



Rocky said:


> You are not accounting for plot. Plot makes weird shit happen.
> 
> Raikage vs Naruto & B is a prime example.
> 
> ...


I don't account for plot when there are direct comparisons of speed in the same panel.

Truthseekers don't slow down, he fired them with a disgraceful look of fear on his face- they were definitely moving at at top speed.

Lee intercepted them with a kunai throw. 

That's the feat, there is nothing more to be said about it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Yoko said:


> This is false.
> 
> Madara slid back what looks like maybe 7 meters in the top left panel.
> 
> ...



Damn, Kakashi's kunai travels as fast as a godoudama.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Madara slid back what looks like maybe 7 meters in the top left panel.
> 
> Kakashi was much farther away judging by Gai's initial Shunshin, and Gai only got farther away from Kakashi as he pushed forward against Madara.
> 
> ...


No Minato said that the distance between them was 70m , the shock between Hirutora and Madara's black thing was that violent .
And according to the Kunai and GudoDama's traveling direction :


It's logical people are just complexing things .


----------



## Yoko (Nov 8, 2015)

What are you talking about?

Gai Shunshin'd a good  distance away (at least 15 meters) from the group upon entering 7th Gate.  He then attacked Madara, pushing him back what appeared to be at least a couple of meters.  He detonates an Afternoon Tiger, which explodes in Gai's face, incapacitating him and and pushing Madara back several meters away.

How do you take away from that exchange that Minato and Kakashi are two feet away from Gai? Madara wouldn't be sliding back if the attack somehow got them closer to Kakashi and Minato, which is in the exact opposite direction.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

I have already said it , the impact/clash of Hirutora and Madara's black bat was so brutal than Gai was repeled back tens of meters , same goes for Madara in the opposit direction .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

> skimming over the last 2 pages
> People are still butthurt about Minato's feat with Kamui and 8th Gate.
>....
> profit


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

"I can't.... noooo he can't throw kunai faster than Kamui... Kamui should be faster!!! Wahhhhhhhh "

"Plot... yeah it's gotta be plot. Or maybe it's because he was waiting for Gaara to put up sand wall (zero reason for him to wait for a sand wall)... yeah that's gotta be it... oh thank god it's not true. But it is!!! It happened!"

pushed forward against Madara


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Minato couldn't react to Madara's kick.
Reacts to Gai twice from a shorter distance.

I wonder wich one is plot and wich one is not .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Low end feats, high end feats.

KCM Naruto can't get around V1 Raikage.

Gets around V2 Raikage seconds later. 



Whine about it, cry about it, go batshit and throw your laptop over it.

It happened, suck it the fuck up.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

8th Gate Dai couldn't deal with 7 swordsmen. Gai dealing with JJ SM Madara, I wonder what is plot and what is not. 

Kakashi getting Obito from beyoned the grave to get PS and be more of a use is plot (actually everything is a plot)
are we going to act that Kakashi with obito inside of his can't use PS because that was an utter shit asspull that makes 0 sense? 

here a gift for you, Lost



Hell, Madara's entire character is built on asspulls over asspulls over asspulls over retecons, are we suppose to not consider
him as a character to begin with, because even his return in his prime is plot and asspull. lol


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Oh people still confending speed and doding a streaght line projectile/Shunshin to Taijutsu lool , just remember that :
-Sasuke got blitzed by Killer Bee's acrobat .
-Sasuke dodged V1 Bee's Shunshin .

The fact that KCM Minato lost one arm to Juubito and his Sage version lost another one to Juudara means just shit because it was Taijutsu lol , nothing like a projectile or a Sunshin .


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

And 5th gated Gai is weaker than Genin Gaara.

It all makes sense now .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Oh there's the whining.

We're on standby for crying and batshit laptop throw LostSelf.

Entertain us.


----------



## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

How exactly does Minato hurt someone who has some of the best regenerative abilities plus he can liquefy? He loses but entrusts the task of defeating Kabuto to Himawari like he did with Naruto.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

No, thanks. If you believe gates puts you in x level, no matter who you are, then let me feel shame for you, guys. Because that's what i'm laughing at.

But hey, you two are free to think that 5th Gated Jonin Gai is as strong as Genin Lee in the 5th, thus, weaker to Gaara .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> And 5th gated Gai is weaker than Genin Gaara.
> 
> It all makes sense now .



Dai was training for the gates for 20 years. He was even older than Gai in the war. 
And we have no feats for 5 Gates Gai anyway. 

But anyway, if It's ok for Gai to be that much better than Dai, then why it's impossible for Lee
to be better than him exactly? 

Lee with 6th Gate showed better feats than Gai, just like how you accepted that Gai's 8th Gate is that much better than Dai's.
It's as simple as that. Accepting one over the other seems a hypocrite's act to me...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

There's 200+ posts in this thread Law.

Your question has been answered by several posters already.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Minato literally caught that fucking kunai with his mouth.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato literally caught that fucking kunai with his mouth.



I love how Gai is @ standstill while Minato turns his back and catches those TSBs.

Minato's body speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gai's
 :ignoramus


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato literally caught that fucking kunai with his mouth.



How did you get it to be an image? I tried, but it keeps being considered as a video!


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Dai was training for the gates for 20 years. He was even older than Gai in the war.
> And we have no feats for 5 Gates Gai anyway.
> 
> But anyway, if It's ok for Gai to be that much better than Dai, then why it's impossible for Lee
> ...



Do i need  to answer seriously or can i keep trolling?

I have no problem with 6th Gated Lee putting a Kunai between Uchiha Madara's eyes, you know .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

>Uchiha Madara is so strong... he can't die to a kunai!!!! 
>Legit a human being that can still be killed by a kunai


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Do i need  to answer seriously or can i keep trolling?
> 
> I have no problem with 6th Gated Lee putting a Kunai between Uchiha Madara's eyes, you know .



It's up to you, I'll stop when I get bored either way. 

- It's canon that the Lee family >>>> Uchiha fodders. Hence
1- Kid Gai kicking Obito's face as a fodder
2- Lee kicking Sasuke's face as a fodder
3- Lee cutting Madara in half like a fodder
4- Gai fodderstompping madara

Too bad itachi did not get his share.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How did you get it to be an image? I tried, but it keeps being considered as a video!



I opened your link.

I right clicked.

I hit "copy video url."

I pasted it.

It looked like this: 

I removed ".webm" & put ".gif"

It worked.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Uchiha Madara can die to a Kunai. 

Lee's throwing speed eclipses 8th Gated Gai's speed. God-tier level Lee shits on him. I don't know why people think i'm whinning.

Sorry guys, i'm not. I'm actually laughing a lot at the double standards of Hussain. But not making fun of him, i just like Hussain .

@Hussain: Itachi almost got his share. He just was smarter than the others and decided to leave the fight when Gai appeared.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

> Uchiha Madara can die to a Kunai.


Uchiha Madara immune to weapons confirmed by LostSelf

Everyone, listen up, weapons go through Uchiha Madara's body, he now has Kamui


----------



## Arles Celes (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 8th Gate Dai couldn't deal with 7 swordsmen. Gai dealing with JJ SM Madara, I wonder what is plot and what is not.
> 
> Kakashi getting Obito from beyoned the grave to get PS and be more of a use is plot (actually everything is a plot)
> are we going to act that Kakashi with obito inside of his can't use PS because that was an utter shit asspull that makes 0 sense?
> ...



The Gates increase the user's power around 100 times rather than make everyone who uses them at the same level. Guy was stronger than his dad which is why he became stronger after using Gates. Besides Dai could have spared some of them after his son and the rest run so far away as to be safe since his goal was to save them rather than killing his enemies.

As for Madara he sure had a high luck stat. Even him being back-stabbed by BZ can be counted as luck since it spared him from being forever trapped in a CT moon and suffering a fate worse than death. Lucky guy.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 8, 2015)

Lostself's logic :
You can see a plane in the sky going at speed of sound==>You can evade the plane .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I opened your link.
> 
> I right clicked.
> 
> ...



Thanks. 



LostSelf said:


> Uchiha Madara can die to a Kunai.
> 
> Lee's throwing speed eclipses 8th Gated Gai's speed. God-tier level Lee shits on him. I don't know why people think i'm whinning.
> 
> Sorry guys, i'm not. I'm actually laughing a lot at the double standards of Hussain. But not making fun of him, i just like Hussain .



Of course he can die to a Kunai, Hashirama killed him with a sword, and he (Hashirama) was going
to kill himself with a Kunai as well. It's only their tards who don't want to take that because well, "Hashirama and Madara" pffff

- Lee already shat on him with a fucking Kick. If you take people's words, they will say shit like
all kages in history want stand to EMS Madara without Madara/Hashirama. No need to take everything they say seriously. At the end of the day, Lee did shit on him which is canon.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everyone, listen up, weapons go through Uchiha Madara's body, he now has Kamui



Do you see no problem with Lee throwing a kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Uchiha Madara immune to weapons confirmed by LostSelf
> 
> Everyone, listen up, weapons go through Uchiha Madara's body, he now has Kamui



Uchiha Madara's level below Lee was confirmed the moment Lee cut him in half.

Stop whinning, Rocky. There's no problem with it.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Not relevant.

The question is whether or not he did it.

The author's fuck up doesn't take away the fact he drew and published it.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> The Gates increase the user's power around 100 times rather than make everyone who uses them at the same level. Guy was stronger than his dad which is why he became stronger after using Gates. Besides Dai could have spared some of them after his son and the rest run so far away as to be safe since his goal was to save them rather than killing his enemies.
> 
> As for Madara he sure had a high luck stat. Even him being back-stabbed by BZ can be counted as luck since it spared him from being forever trapped in a CT moon and suffering a fate worse than death. Lucky guy.



Likewise, Lee can simply be stronger than Gai as well. 

That's asspulldara for you...


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

We're reaching ubiquitous Neji territory.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

I always enjoyed the "let's take what feats we want as canon" debate

It's great when complete strangers try to interpret the author's intentions.

0% evidence that he didn't want Lee, his most celebrated character, or Minato, his "strongest shinobi" to actually be that fast.


----------



## LightningForce (Nov 8, 2015)

My god, how did this thread get derailed so quickly?

> Thread about Minato vs. SM Kabuto
> Attempting to validate Lee's feats against Madara Uchiha and his kunai throwing speed


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Do you see no problem with Lee throwing a kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move



I see a problem that Tobirama marked Obito, took the Gedu-Dama before KCM Minato when he is
slower than base Minato. 

and another problem of Madara reacting to BM Naruto's mini-TBB and reflecting it against him. 

did I say I find a problem of Madara surviving the Bijuu's attack when Lee's kick cut him in half?
Or perhaps the problem of him using Susanoo without eyes? 

Or Obito surviving Rikiri that destroyed his heart, or him living after the Bijuus were removed, and then using RT to revive madara, and then getting the GM out him, and then even Zetsu leaving him? 


and so on. That's Kishi for you. 


-----

To be honest, I don't know what does any of that have to do with Kabuto/Minato.

At first I was surprised of the number of the pages because I was expecting the same nonsense about Kabuto's recovery. Turned out the debate is not even about him. 

Poor thing 

Edit:

Ninja'd lol


----------



## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> "I can't.... noooo he can't throw kunai faster than Kamui... Kamui should be faster!!! Wahhhhhhhh "
> 
> "Plot... yeah it's gotta be plot. Or maybe it's because he was waiting for Gaara to put up sand wall (zero reason for him to wait for a sand wall)... yeah that's gotta be it... oh thank god it's not true. But it is!!! It happened!"
> 
> pushed forward against Madara



Since you cite one of the points I raised, might I remind you that you never actually presented a counter-argument, amidst all this fun you're having?


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I see a problem that Tobirama marked Obito, took the Gedu-Dama before KCM Minato when he is
> slower than base Minato.



Slower? Not anymore .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Slower? Not anymore .



It never happened because I don't like it 
Minato actually slowed down so Tobirama gets blown up instead of him. 
OMG! Tobirama's clone is faster than Tobirama! 
How did Tobirama survived geting destroyed by the Gedu-Dama, but Minato's arms never recovered?

That must have been an illusion Tobirama, so none of what happened with him after he got attacked by the Gedu-Dama counts.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Since you cite one of the points I raised, might I remind you that you never actually presented a counter-argument, amidst all this fun you're having?


I don't require one.

The feat happened in the manga, I have evidence, you have a distorted personal interpretation of what happened.

You're not the author, your interpretation means squat buddy. 

It was written, it was published, he outsped Kamui.


----------



## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> There's 200+ posts in this thread Law.
> 
> Your question has been answered by several posters already.



I'm not going to look through pages of bullshit when I know Minato doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can permanently hurt Kabuto. At best he ties with reaper sealseal. Or he loses and entrusts the defeat of Kabuto to one of his grandchildren.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I'm not going to look through pages of bullshit


Then don't ask the question, make a statement next time.

No need to add further beyond the fact you had no interest in having the question answered.

This tells us 
>You have no interest in debating
>You only wanted to add your half-assed two sentence opinion which carries no intellectual weight

Begone already, this section is for debaters.


----------



## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I don't require one.
> 
> The feat happened in the manga, I have evidence, you have a distorted personal interpretation of what happened.
> 
> ...



Present your evidence, then. Your basic response structure has been: "No — Minato threw kunai before Kakashi could complete — You have no real argument".

Yeah, the author drew it. But did you actually bother to read through what was written and published? 

I literally explained what Kishi drew in those panels, in one of my responses... which you discarded as "bringing in other shit".


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Present your evidence, then. Your basic response structure has been: "No — Minato threw kunai before Kakashi could complete — You have no real argument".
> 
> Yeah, the author drew it. But did you actually bother to read through what was written and published?


You don't dude.

You're literally telling me he didn't outspeed it.

I've posted the scan showcasing he did.

What more do you want dude?

How you interpret it is your business, not mine.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Present your evidence, then. Your basic response structure has been: "No ? Minato threw kunai before Kakashi could complete ? You have no real argument".
> 
> Yeah, the author drew it. But did you actually bother to read through what was written and published?
> 
> I literally explained what Kishi drew in those panels, in one of my responses... which you discarded as "bringing in other shit".



I don't know what your post went, but if IIRC, your argument was that it was Kishi simply
showing them start at the same time, and it was not meant to be seen otherwise? 

if not, correct me...


----------



## Clowe (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> To be honest, I don't know what does any of that have to do with Kabuto/Minato.
> 
> At first I was surprised of the number of the pages because I was expecting the same nonsense about Kabuto's recovery. Turned out the debate is not even about him.
> 
> ...



The debate was about him... for the first seven pages.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 8, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I'm not going to look through pages of bullshit when I know Minato doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can permanently hurt Kabuto. At best he ties with reaper sealseal. Or he loses and entrusts the defeat of Kabuto to one of his grandchildren.



Looool

Why is it that 8 gates is considered a win for gai, but shiki fuin is considered a draw?

Someone kindly explain the logic used here. Id love to hear it.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Minato has lightning in his arsenal.

Also, Rassengan fucked all over his healing power in part 1. 

Needless to say, sealing jutsu makes any recovery he has useless.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Minato either yanks his soul out for the tie or just get outlasted eventually due to oral rebirth healing for serious injuries and passive karin healing for less serious injuries. Oral rebirth also get rid of any tags on his body to prevent any repeated blitz attempts. 

Sound moves can also catch minato off guard regardless of his speed given their wide range.


----------



## Hasan (Nov 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You don't dude.
> 
> You're literally telling me he didn't outspeed it.
> 
> ...



You showed me jack, mate. Allow me to disect the scan that you posted as evidence. Here's the 5th panel, showing Sabakuha being formed:


One of the previous 4 panels depict Minato's kunai landing at Madara's feet, correct? While the very first one depicts Gaara using Sabakuha? You're telling me that:

1—The desert wall, as opposed to forming immediately after Gaara stumped his hands on the ground, "waited" for Kakashi and Minato to prepare their techniques. It's being formed in the above panel, evident by the SFX.

2—Madara's stance is the same as shown in preceding two pages, when he asks Obito to rejoin him. He has no reaction to the kunai that supposedly landed near his feet (which also made some noise), and has been there for quite some time. Furthermore, neither is there a kunai shown nor is the Kamui barrier-space being formed in this panel. 

3—When Kamui is actually shown, the wall is already erected. Did Kamui "wait" for Minato to throw a kunai that covered a measurable distance, enter Sage Mode (which by his own admission takes too much time), and then waited for the desert wall to form, so it could manifest itself? I can buy Kamui being slow (but I would be wrong), but it's not that slow that you can figure out the answer to universe in the time Kakashi activated it and when it actually manifested.

4—Why did Minato wait for the other two, when the kunai was in place much earlier? Why didn't he get to Madara in the immediate next panel after entering Sage Mode? Also, you can take a hint that Minato's head is slightly tilted in the 4th panel, while the last panel aptly shows him positioned as such.

None of these sequences support your so-called argument, but they strangely map to the initial moves that Kishimoto laid out in the first 4 panels.



Hussain said:


> I don't know what your post went, but if IIRC, your argument was that it was Kishi simply
> showing them start at the same time, and it was not meant to be seen otherwise?
> 
> if not, correct me...



My argument is that the panels 5th uptil 7th are just elaborations of the panels shown in the top, observed from different perspectives. When Gaara uses Sabakuha in the first panel, it is simply shown in the middle panel. When Kakashi uses Kamui, it is shown the 6th panel. Likewise, Minato is shown last, because he made the last move.

Basically, Minato didn't outspeed Kamui, because made his move after Kakashi used Kamui.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Minato either yanks his soul out for the tie or just get outlasted eventually due to oral rebirth healing for serious injuries and passive karin healing for less serious injuries. Oral rebirth also get rid of any tags on his body to prevent any repeated blitz attempts.
> 
> Sound moves can also catch minato off guard regardless of his speed given their wide range.



Why would he kill himself if he can simply seal him with other jutsu? Do you perhaps think Kabuto's chakra is as strong as Kurama, that it must be done the same way? 

@Hasan

Honestly, I haven't read your (both) arguments from the start, so I am kinda confused of what is going on. This page here
when he asks Obito to rejoin him

We have 
1- Gaara using his jutsu
2- Kakashi using Kamui
3- Minato's Kunai already landing (not just being thrown). 
4- Minato using his SM

Then

1- Gaara's wall is standing
2- Kamui is working(not yet completed) 
3- Minato has already teleported with a Rassengan

Which means, Minato's strike is faster than the Kamui can teleport (or at least at fast if we are being generous) 
On other words, if Kakashi is trying to use Kamui on Minato for example, the later can throw a Kunai and teleport without Kamui getting him...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why would he kill himself if he can simply seal him with other jutsu? Do you perhaps think Kabuto's chakra is as strong as Kurama, that it must be done the same way?



It would be too impractical to use even the fanfic version of four symbol seal on someone like kabuto. Not to mention OOC. According to the OP minato is in character here.

That's all really.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> It would be too impractical to use even the fanfic version of four symbol seal on someone like kabuto. Not to mention OOC. According to the OP minato is in character here.
> 
> That's all really.



How is it "OOC" when he actually used it in the manga? 



> It would be too impractical to use even the fanfic version of four symbol seal on someone like kabuto.



Mmm, so you're saying "Because we haven't seen this specific sealing jutsu being used against Kabuto, it means it can't be used" 

Have u seen the War Arc and how sealing jutsu do work on people?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

Damn this thing is still going strong, seems the Minato supporters aren't ready to say die. I honestly see this being a good matchup considering Minato's speed and Kabuto's huge arsenal.

My biggest issue with Minato winning is I am not sure Kabuto is going to go down to his blitz because his Liquefying + regenerating abilities, a rasengan won't do it IMO and I am not sure trying to cut his throat would work either.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

In the order the panels portray, it goes:

1.) Gaara slaps the ground & Minato throws the kunai.

2.) Kakashi activates Kamui & the kunai lands at Madara's feet.

3.) Minato activates Sage Mode.

4.) Gaara shapes sand from the environment into a wall.

5.) Kamui begins to take effect on Obito.

6.) Minato warps to Madara.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Damn this thing is still going strong, seems the Minato supporters aren't ready to say die. I honestly see this being a good matchup considering Minato's speed and Kabuto's huge arsenal.
> 
> My biggest issue with Minato winning is I am not sure Kabuto is going to go down to his blitz because his *Liquefying *+ regenerating abilities


Oh yeah i forgot about his modded liquefying jutsu from suigetsu. It will cut out a lot of healing he would have had to do since minato won't be able to harm while that's active.


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> In the order the panels portray, it goes:
> 
> 1.) Gaara slaps the ground & Minato throws the kunai.
> 
> ...



This sounds right. A coordinated attack.


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## Yoko (Nov 8, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I have already said it , the impact/clash of Hirutora and Madara's black bat was so brutal than Gai was repeled back tens of meters , same goes for Madara in the opposit direction .



That makes no sense.

If Gai was blown back to the point where he was right next to Kakashi and Minato, we wouldn't see Madara still sliding back.  What you're trying to sell here is that the attack pushed Gai and Madara in the opposite direction (towards Kakashi and co.), and despite that, Madara is still seen sliding back away from Gai.

Plus, if Minato was two feet away from Gai as your illustration implies, he would have just Shunshin'd to the location rather than toss a kunai to Kakashi and tell him to throw it.  We wouldn't see the kunai traveling either if Kakashi and Minato were right next to Gai's body.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Damn this thing is still going strong, seems the Minato supporters aren't ready to say die. I honestly see this being a good matchup considering Minato's speed and Kabuto's huge arsenal.
> 
> My biggest issue with Minato winning is I am not sure Kabuto is going to go down to his blitz because his Liquefying + regenerating abilities, a rasengan won't do it IMO and I am not sure trying to cut his throat would work either.



The only things Kabuto has in that regard

1- Healing power. 

One of which we haven't even seen THAT much of a great feat for it (from him) nor do we know
for how long can he use it. People say "Karin's healing jutsu" when she almost got killed by Sasuke's sphere (which is even weaker than the Chidori, which is also weaker than the Rassengan". Kabuto since part 1 has great healing power. However, even part 1 Naruto's Rassengan (which is far weaker than Minato's) did a huge amount of damage on him that he couldn't even move. Same jutsu, opened a whole in JJ Obito's back. 

Meanwhile, the only healing we have seen from Kabuto was a damage that was not directed to him directly, but rather to his snake.* When he got his by itachi's sword, he was not able to recover his horn.* So much for not getting damaged. 


2- Liquefying

This ability, one more, were shown by the snake he has. Not his entire body (I.E his horn not turning into water), and it's obviously FAR weaker than the one Sigetsui(?) has. In addition, The 4th Databook gave Minato the lightning element, which is surprise surprise, the Liquefying ability's weakness. 

If everything else fails, he also has the sealing jutsu. For God knows reason people here think it's not going to work on humans. Makes you wonder why did the other villages attacked the Uzumaki Clan if their sealing jutsu do not work against them in the first place. 

Edit:
Even Kabuto himself is not so careless about getting attack because of illusion that people think of him (he won't get hurt because water lol)
he was still trying to avoid any coming attacks
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him

and even after Sasuke/itachi saw and heard about his ability, they still did not try to attack HIS body directly
when he asks Obito to rejoin him

and when it happened
when he asks Obito to rejoin him

it was not recovered.


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## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

Honestly, there isn't much that can beat him. Genjutsu is a given, but you need a super powerful jutsu. It took a tbb to knock out suigetsu. Minato's best bet is to use electricity which has he's never been shown to do or reaper seal. 

Love how the Minato fanboys won't give up, yet think guys like Itachi would get killed in a minute.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

What does itachi have to do with the Hokages who were hyped to be the strongest? 
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him
when he asks Obito to rejoin him

you just who those 2 (Kabuto/itachi) were fighting, compare to what level needed to fight the Hokages.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> This sounds right. A coordinated attack.



It's a coordinated attack, but it doesn't sound all that right. 

For one, in between Kakashi's activation of Kamui and Kamui beginning to take effect on Obito, Minato was able to enter Sage Mode. 

Two, after Kamui had begun to distort Obito, but _before_ Obito got warped away, the following happened:

Minato teleported to Madara
Madara cut Minato's arm off
Madara kicked Minato's arm thirty meters into Kakashi

It's lolzy.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

This thread is a mess


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## Kurak (Nov 8, 2015)

I want to see how Minato counter Manda 2. Another "noble" sacrifice using Shiki Fūjin?


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## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

Kurak said:


> I want to see how Minato counter Manda 2. Another "noble" sacrifice using Shiki Fūjin?



He'll seal Manda's power in Himawari and entrust her with finally defeating Kabuto


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Kurak said:


> I want to see how Minato counter Manda 2. Another "noble" sacrifice using Shiki Fūjin?



as he countered Kurama, a noble "contract Seal"


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

I actually see Minato summoning Frogs to fight off Manda 2


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Kabuto says he can regenerate any wound the uchiha brothers do to him.

Posters: Well he can't heal his main body

Kabuto turns his insides to liquid to troll the effects of hakugeki.

Posters: Well he can't liquefy his actual body....just the snakes that come from his actual body.

Think ghoztly might have stumbled onto a goldmine of a thread here.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Kabuto says he can regenerate any wound the uchiha brothers do to him.
> 
> Posters: Well he can't heal his main body
> 
> ...



and Kabuto said he is the closest to Hagoromo, and that he will "win"
use it to restrain



He also said he is invincible, GG Kaguya, GG. 
use it to restrain

Did I mention he said ET has no weaknesses? 

Yup, Minato is fucked.


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## Kurak (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> as he countered Kurama, a noble "contract Seal"



 good one


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's a coordinated attack, but it doesn't sound all that right.
> 
> For one, in between Kakashi's activation of Kamui and Kamui beginning to take effect on Obito, Minato was able to enter Sage Mode.
> 
> ...



Yes, i also agree with this. Both Juudara and Hiraishin are faster than Kamui. Even though Kamui looked quite slow there. As it has been showing snipping almost instantly.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and Kabuto said he is the closest to Hagoromo
> Link removed
> 
> 
> ...



>Doesn't really counter the liquefy point


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

None of Minato's arsenal is doing shit. Kabuto knew of Itachi and Sasuke yet was boasting they couldn't harm him. Which means he didn't fear any of their jutsu, and they have tons of jutsu more capable than a goddamn rasengan. 

He was confident in his ability to tank all these and regenerate himself, and factor in he could literally liquefy his insides rasengan impact won't do shit.

And this is all considering Minato even gets his blitz off, Kabuto has tons of troll jutsu like white rage and muki tensei to fuck with him. Who says Muki tensei can't troll the battlefield and make his kunai irrelevant?

I don't see Minato blitzing his way to victory at all.

If Minato marks him, shed skin gg as well.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Doesn't really counter the liquefy point



I already did previously. I am just addressing the "X said some Bullshit, therefore said bullshit is fact"


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I already did previously. I am just addressing the "X said some Bullshit, therefore said bullshit is fact"



Like when Ei said he was the fastest man alive and you believed him, Hussain? .


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I already did previously. I am just addressing the "X said some Bullshit, therefore said bullshit is fact"



Not really tho, because unlike the "lol I'm close to Rikudo", him being able to regen form non-lethal shit from the Uchiha Bros is actually possible


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

And the idea a goddamn fodder lightning element technique is taking him down is grasping, lol.

He has nothing fatal to him, the Uchiha bros. had way more firepower than Minato.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Doesn't really counter the liquefy point


It's because he or any other poster for that matter can't.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Like when Ei said he was the fastest man alive and you believed him, Hussain? .



More like how Kabuto (who said he is the closest to Hago) said Hashirama is stronger than any Shinobi alive. Therefore, too bad Gai-Sensai, Kabuto said Hashirama > Gai. 



Hachibi said:


> Not really tho, because unless the "lol I'm close to Rikudo", him being able to regen form non-lethal shit from the Uchiha Bros is actually possible



I am not talking about the "possibility". I am addressing the silly nation that Kabuto is completely immune. Open a thread now, and have Kabuto's body Vs PS/Hashirama's Buddha.

I will love to see those people claim the same thing.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> More like how Kabuto (who said he is the closest to Hago) said Hashirama is stronger than any Shinobi alive. Therefore, too bad Gai-Sensai, Kabuto said Hashirama > Gai.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's only immune to genjutsu.

He isn't immune to Minato's ninjutsu, they are just too weak to put him down. He has nothing remotely close to the firepower Sasuke and Itachi could throw at him yet he fought them both, and cockily did so not expecting harm.

Ironically he got gg'd by the one thing he was supposed to be immune to, lol.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> It's because he or any other poster for that matter can't.



No, you're being delusional. 

Link removed



Lightning.

I know it hurts, but you will get used to it. 



Ghoztly said:


> He's only immune to genjutsu.
> 
> He isn't immune to Minato's ninjutsu, they are just too weak to put him down. He has nothing remotely close to the firepower Sasuke and Itachi could throw at him yet he fought them both, and cockily did so not expecting harm.
> 
> Ironically he got gg'd by the one thing he was supposed to be immune to, lol.



That fight has both itachi/Sasuke holding back. It's not "true" representation of what he is worth.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

>Doesn't know context


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## LightningForce (Nov 8, 2015)

It seems that Minato's supporters are hinging on the idea that Minato can throw a kunai and bamflash faster than Kamui's warp process, which places Minato on a tier faster than SM Kabuto such that the latter will not be able to physically react to.



Rocky said:


> In the order the panels portray, it goes:
> 
> 1.) Gaara slaps the ground & Minato throws the kunai.
> 
> ...



Hmm...


This is absolutely correct. Kamui begins *after* Minato activates Sage mode (and by precedent, has thrown the kunai). In addition, this was also a coordinated attack, so that Kamui begins right after Gaara pulls up the Sand Wall, because what else would be the point of doing it then? The sequence of events as intended by Kishi is clear in this case here.

Minato cannot throw a kunai about 20-30 m, go into SM, and jump faster than a Kamui snipe. Just because that one panel shows Kakashi activating his MS, doesn't mean he's initiating Kamui. Take for example, this.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, you're being delusional.
> 
> this
> 
> ...



>Featless Lightning


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Doesn't know context



Enlighten me. Useless posts like those are not doing any good (unless you want the post count thing )



> >Featless Lightning



He has it, and the Databook state that they can use even if for small extent  of it.

Not as if Kabuto has any feats himself to be able to use it like Suigetsu, so what makes him any different?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

If anyone who got some real skills wanna show me how someone who can become liquid and regenerate katana wounds in a second can be killed by rasengans and kunai cuts feel free.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

The idea that Minato has anything with more firepower than EMS Sasuke and Itachi amuses me.

Kabuto isn't going down to anything he has. Grasping for some lightning jutsu Minato has never used once? Really?


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Enlighten me. Useless posts like those are not doing any good (unless you want the post count thing )



I always wanted the post count 

Kabuto's immune to genjutsu (tho that's irrevelant) and normal attack (since he's basically intangible).

Minato's not going to win this by featless lightning either considering Oral Rebirth



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If anyone who got some real skills wanna show me how someone who can become liquid and regenerate katana wounds in a second can be killed by rasengans and kunai cuts feel free.



Interestingly enough, Kabuto's horn never grew back


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If anyone who got some real skills wanna show me how someone who can become liquid and regenerate katana wounds in a second can be killed by rasengans and kunai cuts feel free.



Who said you need to die to be consider defeated? lol
this
this





Hachibi said:


> I always wanted the post count
> 
> Kabuto's immune to genjutsu (tho that's irrevelant) and normal attack (since he's basically intangible).
> 
> Minato's not going to win this by featless lightning either considering Oral Rebirth



If Kabuto was immune to Genjutsu, he wouldn't have lost to it. 

Kurama has better durability and everything, and he still got his ass sealed.


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## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

Featless lightning  
Guess this means Hinata can beat sage Kabuto as well  
Talk about grasping at strawsstraws, have some dignity and admit you're wrong about this match. Seriously pushing fanboyism to the extreme


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

feats whoring is not going to get you anywhere.

O.M.G Hamaru, Asura, and Indra are featless, I guess Konohamaru are stronger than them. 

and again, the ability that everyone fapping over for Kabuto, he has zero feat for it as well. 
Show me where HE got hit, and they turned into water, because surely his horn did not.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If Kabuto was immune to Genjutsu, he wouldn't have lost to it.



You do know I mean _visual_ genjutsu right?



> Kurama has better durability and everything, and he still got his ass sealed.



>Doesn't realise that sealing ignore durability



Hussain said:


> feats whoring is not going to get you anywhere.
> 
> O.M.G Hamaru, Asura, and Indra are featless, I guess Konohamaru are stronger than them.
> 
> ...



You mean how it allowed him to pretty much ignore White Rage?


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> You do know I mean _visual_ genjutsu right?
> 
> 
> 
> >Doesn't realise that sealing ignore durability



- You said "Genjutsu" hell, even the "visual" itachi opened his eyes at the end and forced him to undo the ET, no? 

- Exactly. Which is why the Kabuto's recovery argument is rubbish. 



Hachibi said:


> You mean how it allowed him to pretty much ignore White Rage?



SM Naruto did not get effected by the frogs's Sound jutsu, I guess he does not get effected by any attack either.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Interestingly enough, Kabuto's horn never grew back


That appendage that grew out of his head is exempt from the healing his body get i suppose. That horns wasn't even healed when he got took out of sage mode by orochimaru and activated it again later(when he appeared on the battlefield to heal sasuke).

Just like karin's bite wounds not healing(despite using her healing directly on herself during the war) there are some things kishi will overlook.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

It's pretty clear this guys fanboyism is top tier, we can argue all we want, even an army of us and he won't be swayed. Kabuto wrecks Minato is my vote and I am checking outta here.


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - You said "Genjutsu" hell, even the "visual" itachi opened his eyes at the end and forced him to undo the ET, no?



Kabuto was already in Izanami.



> - Exactly. Which is why the Kabuto's recovery argument is rubbish.



Oral Rebirth tho.

Kurama's size didn't exactly help him either



> SM Naruto did not get effected by the frogs's Sound jutsu, I guess he does not get effected by any attack either.



Frog Call has vibration now?


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I know, and he was placed in another Genjutsu. Conclusion, things can still be used.



Idk how that worked.

Maybe Kabuto need to keep is visual genjutsu immunity consciously.



> Kurama's size is what makes him even harder to seal.



But easier to tag.



> And I don't know what makes you think
> Kabuto is faster than Minato to use Oral Rebirth.



He has precog



> Oro has that, and he surely was not considered to
> be superior to Minato either.



They're both bad match-up



> Any sound has vibration.



But do they have vibrations as powerful as White Rage's?


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

> But do they have vibrations as powerful as White Rage's?



It's strong enough to put 2 Boss Summons in their place.
this



> But easier to tag.



Kurama's size will be a problem to Minato by himself, that's why he needed the frogs to keep him still.

Kabuto's size is easier to maintain. We have already seen that Minato can seal others. Hell, if nothing but to seal Kabuto's chakra, that will still do.
(like he sealed his and Kushina's chakra)


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## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It's strong enough to put 2 Boss Summons in their place.
> this



By affecting their hearing.

White Rage also affect the bones to an extent.

In fact, why did you even brought it up when Naruto wasn't in it's AoE is beyond me.



> Kurama's size will be a problem to Minato by himself, that's why he needed the frogs to keep him still.
> 
> Kabuto's size is easier to maintain.



But it's easier to tag


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> By affecting their hearing.
> 
> White Rage also affect the bones to an extent.
> 
> ...



- Are you blind? 

Naruto is right in the middle of it. 

- when was tagging a problem? Even JJ Obito got tagged.


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## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

Kabuto is not immune to genjutsu. Nobody is. If someone was 100% immune then izanami and tsukuyomi wouldn't have done shit. There's a difference between having a perfect could terms and being immune.

Oh and  at Minato sealing Kabuto. Christ, classic Minato fagboy argument. All Minato has to seal another actual person and not just an evil spirit or fox is his reaper seal which kills him. At best he and Kabuto die, but Minato is not winning


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## Kyu (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Minato couldn't react to Madara's kick.
> Reacts to Gai twice from a shorter distance.
> 
> I wonder wich one is plot and wich one is not .





			
				Another thread said:
			
		

> ITT: Smh. Folks unable to differentiate between _reacting while anticipating a potential threat_ and _stopping your own assault to respond accordingly to an incoming attack_.
> 
> Can Minato react to foes above him in overall strength at a reasonable distance? Yes, as he's done so on more than one occasion. *[1]**[2]* In addition, he has received consistent speed-related hype from numerous high-tiers to boot, unlike Lee or Gaara. This substantiates what he's displayed on panel.
> 
> Can he counterattack or evade mid-strike to those foes? Juubi Madara says no.*[X]*



**


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## StarWanderer (May 27, 2016)

Minato is a sensory type, he can feel the senjutsu Kabuto uses. After that, he can speedblitz him with Rassengan to his head, because he himself is a Sage, under the guidance of The Toads, so he knows the properties of senjutsu. Hydrafication is a non-factor, we saw that he didnt use it when Itachi cut off his horn, or when Sasuke pierced his snake-tail. So it's highly unlikely he'll use it against Minato's blitz attempt. SM durability wont save Kabuto. Minato's Rassengan could melt Obito's zetsu-hand, which effortlessly tanked Kubikiribōchō. And Minato has an enormous speed advantage. He was physically faster than long-ranged Kamui, after all.

Minato wrecks.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2016)

Kabuto mid diff at most


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## StarWanderer (May 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato mid diff at most



Fixed.


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