# General Esdeath enters Fairy Tail



## Sherlōck (Jan 14, 2015)

Esdeath learns about the bullshit powers of FT & decides to teach them how real life works. She fights from weakest to strongest. She gets healed after every fight. How far can she go?

​

No knowledge.
Speed equal.
Standard OBD rules.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jan 14, 2015)

Solos the verse.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 14, 2015)

how strong was esdeath again ?
i only know she is a bit slower than pretty much anyone worthy a salt on FT.
regardless she solos with her sadistic quality


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 14, 2015)

How would she do against the top tier dragons that are like low gigatons or something?


----------



## LordPerucho (Jan 14, 2015)

OP shouldve waited for Chapter 56 that comes out next week, she gets powerscaled of what Budou has done(and what he will do next chapter).

Speed-wise she should be at least as fast as 2nd form Incurso that can dodge lighting.


----------



## AliceKumo (Jan 14, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> OP shouldve waited for Chapter 56 that comes out next week, she gets powerscaled of what Budou has done(and what he will do next chapter).
> 
> Speed-wise she should be at least as fast as 2nd form Incurso that can dodge lighting.



Lighting timing in AGK? I smell bullshit.


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 14, 2015)

I don't know FT very well, what is the best durability feat in the series?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 14, 2015)

AliceKumo said:


> Lighting timing in AGK? I smell bullshit.


actually...

i got everything from peak human to low hypersonic
i'm still waiting an answer to see if i can make the second method on a acceptabe way,tho


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 14, 2015)

A couple things.

First, her "time-stop" hax now has a gigantic hole in it, namely that anyone who can resist the cold can ignore it. So it isn't stopping any ice or fire based enemies. Which would include the dragon made out of frigging Hellfire.

Second, OP said speed equal, which means neither side is blitzing or always dodging.

I'm not aware of anything in AGK that would give Esdeath the power to take out any of the dragons, and their power would instantly kill her.

I'd say she reaches the dragons then stops. For now anyway, next chapter might give us something new.


----------



## Redemption X (Jan 14, 2015)

How is she hurting anyone with Erza scaling (town+)?. Esdese has multi-block level dc. She can freeze time but it wont change anything is she cant hurt her opponents.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jan 14, 2015)

Redemption X said:


> How is she hurting anyone with Erza scaling (town+)?. Esdese has multi-block level dc. She can freeze time but it wont change anything is she cant hurt her opponents.



She can pierce her eyes with a sword or stab her in the heart.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 14, 2015)

ShadowReaper said:


> She can pierce her eyes with a sword or stab her in the heart.



Does the OBD accept that? I mean, Esdeath doesn't have the DC to hurt Erza, so I don't think you can just have her stab a weak point to overcome that.

Also, I doubt she could even timestop her. As I said, it isn't even really timestop, just some application of freezing that temporarily slows molecular movement or something. It got resisted by _Tatsumi_, and his Incursio is small change next to Erza's armor. Considering she has elemental resisting armor, I'd say she'd could resist it.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 14, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> Does the OBD accept that? I mean, Esdeath doesn't have the DC to hurt Erza, so I don't think you can just have her stab a weak point to overcome that.
> 
> Also, I doubt she could even timestop her. As I said, it isn't even really timestop, just some application of freezing that temporarily slows molecular movement or something. It got resisted by _Tatsumi_, and his Incursio is small change next to Erza's armor. Considering she has elemental resisting armor, I'd say she'd could resist it.


No we dont
Weak spots are just relatively weaker spots.
Erza eyes and the alikes are town+
Erza will laugh her ass against any mcb attack.
Last chapter and even since The first time The tecnique was showed it was made clear esdeath os just using her powers to freeze everything on her surrounds with some kind of lolfiction application of ice manipulation.
So yeah esdeath aint stoping even natsu let alone erza.(assuming she os just mcb)


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 14, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> No we dont
> Weak spots are just relatively weaker spots.
> Erza eyes and the alikes are town+
> Erza will laugh her ass against any mcb attack.
> ...



That's what I thought. This thread should really have been made after the current manga arc finished, because I think we're reaching the part where Budou and Esdeath finally go all-out.

For the moment, though, FT beats Esdeath handily.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 14, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> Does the OBD accept that? I mean, Esdeath doesn't have the DC to hurt Erza, so I don't think you can just have her stab a weak point to overcome that.


Unless demonstrated otherwise, we typically just assume that while relatively weaker, eyes and internal organs and shit of superhuman characters are still in the same range of durability as the rest of the character.

If someone has enough durability to shrug off what you're throwing at them, targeting their eyes probably isn't going to offset the lack of firepower enough for you to start damaging them.

Or at the very least, it's impractical at best against an opponent with presumably comparable speed and superior destructive capacity/durability.


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 15, 2015)

I swear I remember someone doing a Akame series calc in blog . I can't find it anywhere.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 15, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> I swear I remember someone doing a Akame series calc in blog . I can't find it anywhere.



For what? Speed is irrelevant here, and nothing shown so far has outdone the MCB attacks that I'm aware of.


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 15, 2015)

Skeleton danger beast firing beam I think.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 15, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Skeleton danger beast firing beam I think.



I remember that, but I'm pretty sure that _was_ the MCB feat.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 15, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Skeleton danger beast firing beam I think.



Didn't she freeze a lake or something and that was it?


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 16, 2015)

While the Time Freeze is a lolfiction extension of her ice powers, it still is literally freezing time and space. Just because Tatsumi resisted it doesn't make it any less broken, that just means Incursio's adaptability is equally broken. It's described as literally freezing time and space in it's first appearance in both the manga and the anime, and is also described that way in the databook as well. Anyone claiming otherwise interpreted her power the wrong way. 

Also, while the biggest calc for AGK caps out at MCB, Esdeath has a few feats that were never calced that would likely yield power somewhere in the town level area. That plus her time stop would mean anyone below town level is getting stomped on , and she has a shot at those around that level anyway. Like I mentioned earlier, I know nothing about FTverse really, but to claim that because someone in her own verse resisted her time stop, that anyone who can resist the cold can as well is faulty logic.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 16, 2015)

~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> While the Time Freeze is a lolfiction extension of her ice powers, it still is literally freezing time and space. Just because Tatsumi resisted it doesn't make it any less broken, that just means Incursio's adaptability is equally broken. It's described as literally freezing time and space in it's first appearance in both the manga and the anime, and is also described that way in the databook as well. Anyone claiming otherwise interpreted her power the wrong way.
> 
> Also, while the biggest calc for AGK caps out at MCB, Esdeath has a few feats that were never calced that would likely yield power somewhere in the town level area. That plus her time stop would mean anyone below town level is getting stomped on , and she has a shot at those around that level anyway. Like I mentioned earlier, I know nothing about FTverse really, but to claim that because someone in her own verse resisted her time stop, that anyone who can resist the cold can as well is faulty logic.



No, what esdeath uses is molecular immobilization which is similar to time stop but is not equal to timestop.
Basically, she can lower the temperature to the point where molecules stops moving.

Anyways, high-mid tiers are already triple digits, so she stops around that level for sure.


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 16, 2015)

I've seen that claim before, but there really is no evidence that that's the case. She's only used it twice in canon, and the first time she she said it froze time and space verbatim. The second time she used it she mentioned Tatsumi resisting cold to the extreme that he's able to move around in her frozen space. While the means of achieving it are through the application of her ice based abilities, the end result is freezing time and space. People are focusing too much on the method and not on the actual end result. Has it been stated that it just freezes the molecules around her? No, it's been stated to freeze time and space in three separate sources, one of which is the primary canon.  Seriously, what's so hard to believe about it? There is crazier stuff in fiction.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 16, 2015)

Retcons do happen, you know?
And even then, one could argue that
-esdeath could have been bullshitting us all along
-we lack more detailed information about said feat
Etc.
At that point in time.
And while the former is unlikely to happen, we did get more info about esdeaths skills, and it turns out to be nothing more than just lowering temp to extreme values.



> People are focusing too much on the method and not on the actual end result


Uh, of course.
If tatsumi managed to counter her abilities without, you know?, specifically "resisting" the low temp, then that's a different story.


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 16, 2015)

So your equating Incursio's resistance feat to it only being molecular immobilization? That's a jump in logic. Let's look at that feat a bit closer. 



Esdeath is forced into a position where she either can't dodge Mine's blast or she just wanted to end the fight, the reason why doesn't really matter too much. 



She declares the battle is over, but is then surprised to see Tatsumi attacking her. 



Some inner dialogue about Incursio adapting to resist the cold. To the point it resisted her "frozen space". I assume this is where your line of thinking comes from. While yes she mentioned it specifically adapting to the cold, what else is there to adapt to really (except maybe specifically the time stop)? Yes it adapted to the cold but then where does the time stop come from? Her ice abilities. Yes she is freezing the area, but the ability its self extends further than just freezing matter and affects actual space-time. I would have agreed with your assessment if wasn't for the exposition earlier in the manga and the affirmation of said explanation by the later released databook.

EDIT: 

Those are the official English subs. The Anime, while a separate canon, was supervised by Takahiro. It says literally, and keep in mind this episode was released after Chapter 54.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 16, 2015)

Uh, i honestly don't see the point of you posting that.
Energy beams, and the like are energy based skills.
And i do think you know what happens when you release energy from something or supply energy to something.


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 16, 2015)

List of facts we know about her ability:
.It's name is Mahapadma, and is compared to a Naraka, or a frozen underworld from various religions.
.It requires a vast amount of energy from the user, thus it can only be used once a day. 
.Esdeath explains it as freezing space-time. Literally so in the anime. The databook backs this statement up with the description for the ability being the same as her explanation for it.
.Incursio evolved to resist the cold, to the extent it could resist in her words her "frozen space". 

Anything else is conjecture. I see your points, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't believe there was a retcon, as nothing in chapter 54 contradicts what was said in chapter 42. In my opinion I believe it best to take the description for the ability at face value.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 16, 2015)

~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> List of facts we know about her ability:
> .It's name is Mahapadma, and is compared to a Naraka, or a frozen underworld from various religions.
> .It requires a vast amount of energy from the user, thus it can only be used once a day.
> .Esdeath explains it as freezing space-time. Literally so in the anime. The databook backs this statement up with the description for the ability being the same as her explanation for it.
> ...



List of facts about resisting the ability:
-->It's based in the ability to resist cold
-->Multiple FC characters would be far better at this than Tatsumi
-->We have only Esdeath's word and a databook to contradict, one is hyperbole and the other is secondary canon.

Not directly related but she can't hurt them even if it was time-stop, so it doesn't matter.


----------



## LordPerucho (Jan 16, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Retcons do happen, you know?
> And even then, one could argue that
> -esdeath could have been bullshitting us all along
> -we lack more detailed information about said feat
> ...



Esdease having a 2nd trump cards, Since when you were under the impression she had only 1 trump card?



AliceKumo said:


> Lighting timing in AGK? I smell bullshit.






Budou tried to finish off Tatsumi with a stronger lighting crash but Tatsumi could react to it.




iwandesu said:


> No we dont
> Weak spots are just relatively weaker spots.
> Erza eyes and the alikes are town+
> Erza will laugh her ass against any mcb attack.
> ...



Erza was affected by the haxx of a far weaker demon(Sayla). The same Sayla that got 1 shotted by Elfman.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Didn't she freeze a lake or something and that was it?



That was when she was weaker.

Esdease might get Town level+ in DC and Durability depending of what Budou will do on chapter 56.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 16, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> Erza was affected by the haxx of a far weaker demon(Sayla). The same Sayla that got 1 shotted by Elfman.


what kind of counter argument was this supposed to be ?
Sayla hax is a body control curse that was resisted because nakama punch
esdeath ability is a fake time stop that was resisted because tatsumi was that strong
erza and pretty much any mc bar lucy>tatsumi and esdeath
thus, she ain't stopping anyone worthy their salt
isn't a difficult logic to follow



> Esdease might get Town level+ in DC and Durability depending of what Budou will do on chapter 56.


not really relevant but i doubt it.
budou doesn't seems to be the high AOE type guy.(maybe he will do a cloud parting feat,tho)


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 16, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> List of facts about resisting the ability:
> -->It's based in the ability to resist cold
> -->Multiple FC characters would be far better at this than Tatsumi
> -->We have only Esdeath's word and a databook to contradict, one is hyperbole and the other is secondary canon.
> ...



Hyperbole because I feel like it. Esdeath wasn't explaining the ability to anyone, she was thinking to her self. There was no reason to exaggerate what it could do. Secondary canon argument is BS because the databook doesn't contradict with what is shown in the manga. It was only supporting a character statement. A statement made by the character who came up with the god damned technique. Esdeath abilities made an absurd jump that allowed her to affect space-time. Tatumi's Incursio made the same absurd leap as to allow him to resist the abilities. Just because her base power set is ice manipulation means jack if this is something completely different. It draws from the same power source, but we all damned well know that freezing time with just ice based abilities is bs. There is obviously something more here at work that's allowing this to happen. Maybe we should wait until we see her second trump card before we cast further judgement on her first one.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 16, 2015)

~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> Hyperbole because I feel like it. Esdeath wasn't explaining the ability to anyone, she was thinking to her self. There was no reason to exaggerate what it could do. Secondary canon argument is BS because the databook doesn't contradict with what is shown in the manga. It was only supporting a character statement. A statement made by the character who came up with the god damned technique. Esdeath abilities *made an absurd jump* that allowed her to affect space-time. Tatumi's Incursio *made the same absurd leap* as to allow him to resist the abilities. Just because her base power set is ice manipulation means jack* if this is something completely different*. It draws from the same power source, but *we all damned well know that freezing time with just ice based abilities is bs*. There is obviously something more here at work that's allowing this to happen. Maybe we should wait until we see her second trump card before we cast further judgement on her first one.



It's almost painful to watch you stab yourself in the foot like this.....

First, you admit her freezing time is ridiculous in the context of the manga.

Second, you bring up another character doing something equally ridiculous, despite being far weaker.

Third, you base your argument around a statement you start with the word "if", which means you have no proof.

Fourth, you admit her actually freezing time is BS.

I'm starting to think we should just let you make our points for us, but............Nah, this is more fun.


Here, let's work this out logically.

*Evidence One*

Esdeath uses her ability to freeze things to apparently stop time in her local vicinity. However, the ability to "resist the cold" is explicitly mentioned to counteract that ability. 

*Evidence Two*

Tatsumi manages to resist it with Incursio. Anyone with a higher ability to "resist the cold" than Tatsumi will therefore be unaffected by her "timestop".

*Evidence Three*

Nearly every FT character above Lucy would be able to do so based on previous confrontations with ice-based enemies.

*Conclusion*

"Timestop" doesn't work on the majority of FT characters. Esdeath dies in a one-on-one battle against any mage above Lucy, and never reaches the higher tiers.


The really funny thing? If people hadn't pushed her "timestop" so hard, we probably would have ignored its weakness and let her reach the dragons.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 16, 2015)

> Budou tried to finish off Tatsumi with a stronger lighting crash but Tatsumi could react to it.


So what?



> Erza was affected by the haxx of a far weaker demon(Sayla). The same Sayla that got 1 shotted by Elfman.


Different kinds of haxes.
And Sayla only got defeated by a PoF buffed elfman.


----------



## OS (Jan 16, 2015)

Why can't we agree that they just bow down and kiss the ground she walks on?


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 16, 2015)

OS said:


> Why can't we agree that they just bow down and kiss the ground she walks on?



Because FT doesn't even deserve that much


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 16, 2015)

OS said:


> Why can't we agree that they just bow down and kiss the ground she walks on?



Because we're comparing power levels and abilities, not quality of character. If we were this wouldn't be a contest (technically it still isn't, but I mean the other way around).

I mean, I hate Esdeath's guts, and I still like her more than everyone in Fairy Tail.

Except the dragons, but they're dragons and therefore automatically better than any human ever  for me


----------



## Alita (Jan 16, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> No we dont
> Weak spots are just relatively weaker spots.
> Erza eyes and the alikes are town+
> Erza will laugh her ass against any mcb attack.
> ...



To be fair though? Erza performed her town+ feat only once in the whole manga and it was with a very specific armor witch was subsequently destroyed afterwards. Erza was also nearly out of magic afterwards. And I woulden't say she was unscathed by the attack either.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 17, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> To be fair though? Erza performed her town+ feat only once in the whole manga and it was with a very specific armor witch was subsequently destroyed afterwards. Erza was also nearly out of magic afterwards. And I wouldn't say she was unscathed by the attack either.



She has also explicitly gotten much stronger since then.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 17, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> To be fair though? Erza performed her town+ feat only once in the whole manga and it was with a very specific armor witch was subsequently destroyed afterwards. Erza was also nearly out of magic afterwards. And I woulden't say she was unscathed by the attack either.


not the only town level feat she has ever performed.
also it doesn't really matter 
since the feat was a clash performed by both erza and nightwalker and we got a guy much stronger than the latter (Azuma) throwing his best ougi on erza on a latter arc and she eating it (albeit hurted)


----------



## Fujita (Jan 17, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> Does the OBD accept that?



No

dirt shoving, on the other hand, is a perfectly legitimate tactic 



~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> Some inner dialogue about Incursio adapting to resist the cold. To the point it resisted her "frozen space". I assume this is where your line of thinking comes from. While yes she mentioned it specifically adapting to the cold, what else is there to adapt to really (except maybe specifically the time stop)? Yes it adapted to the cold but then where does the time stop come from? Her ice abilities. Yes she is freezing the area, but the ability its self extends further than just freezing matter and affects actual space-time. I would have agreed with your assessment if wasn't for the exposition earlier in the manga and the affirmation of said explanation by the later released databook.



Well, if you stop all movement, "space" isn't going to be changing much (which is about as literally frozen as you can get in this context) and time... is a bit irrelevant at that point. You could argue that it still exists in some sense but every process that would advance with time is halted at that point, whether it's aging or somebody falling due to gravity. It's maybe a bit more figuratively frozen than space is, but it's still not really doing anything. 

You can apparently avoid the ability by adapting around her freezing (loosely interpreted, since there shouldn't be anything particularly cold about her time stop... or we'd see things turning to ice rather than just stopping) powers. That right there is cause to believe that this ability might not work on people with freezing resistance on levels that she hasn't dealt with. To be fair, one person's cold resistance isn't necessarily another's (especially when the "cold" does fairly different things), but Tatsumi apparently avoided her ability by adapting against freezing and nothing else that we know of.  

Sure, it could be that she just has bullshit time-stopping powers and Tatsumi has bullshit time-stop-resisting powers. That explanation fits about as well as the one above, and it's not like fiction has some inherent preference for things to not be bullshit. And we're guessing anyway at what the mechanism behind her ability might be. 

But I think that some sort of pseudo-freezing seems more in line with her other abilities (it works as an extension of them, rather than something else entirely) and it explains Tatsmi's escape without requiring some extra ability on his part.


----------



## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jan 17, 2015)

I'll concede the point for now, I was going to make a rather long winded post this morning, but my internet went out right as I was leaving for work 

There is little evidence for either interpretation being right or wrong, and both are equally possible, I was just taking what was said at face value. We could learn more about it later, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 17, 2015)

~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> I'll concede the point for now, I was going to make a rather long winded post this morning, but my internet went out right as I was leaving for work
> 
> There is little evidence for either interpretation being right or wrong, and both are equally possible, I was just taking what was said at face value. We could learn more about it later, but I wouldn't hold my breath.



Aw, we were just getting to the good part.

Eh, whatever. I'm sure by the end of the manga Esdeath will do something to give her the punch she needs. Of course, she'll probably be dead by the end of the manga, along with every other named character because SCREW HAPPINESS, THIS IS AGK.

Sorry, still bitter over Chelsea.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 17, 2015)

> bitter over Chelsea


really ? i didn't really got much feelings from her
granted, she was a way better ship than lolmine.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 17, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> really ? i didn't really got much feelings from her
> granted, she was a way better ship than lolmine.



Yeah, I didn't get it either, but she really clicked with me. And then Kurome happened.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

So, quick question or two while we're on this subject:

Can we really say that FT characters can resist Esdese's cold, and thus Timestop?

I do not recall any Ice-based attack in FT that was capable of freezing space without literally freezing people in a block of ice.

... Or would it be treated more like she is freezing what is _in_ that space(people, attacks, etc) and thus fall under the new Absolute Zero style treatment?


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 18, 2015)

@Manidk
just a question is esdeath timestop as everyone calls it a true timestop or is it just the name of the attack.

- Esdeath power is ice base.
> Does Her timestop functions as a real magical timestop
- or does she only affect the atoms around the area and flash freezing them to the point that it can be perceive as if everything in the vicinity has stopped?

The latter would obviously fall with the Az the former well it is a timestop...


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Jan 18, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> @Manidk
> just a question is esdeath timestop as everyone calls it a true timestop or is it just the name of the attack.
> 
> - Esdeath power is ice base.
> ...



Here's the guidebook entry


*Spoiler*: __ 





DarkSlayerZero said:


> Esdeath's Trump Card entry from the guidebook.
> 
> 
> 
> _"Mahapadma" (摩訶鉢特摩 or Makahadoma in Japanese), the technique that freezes space and time, is named after one of the cold hells in religion. A great amount of energy is used to pull it off, which is why it can only be used once a day._


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 18, 2015)

freezes space and time  doesn't really explain a lot of things.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm honestly hesitant to label it as a cold-based timestop because it shows zero signs of actually lowering temperature.

"Oh hey, lemme just instantly lower the temperature around me to near absolute-zero, just want you to stop moving, not fall apart... ok, now just as quickly, I'm gonna raise it back, leaving absoutely zero traces of any sort of drop in temperature."


----------



## AngryHeretic (Jan 18, 2015)

Except that seems to be _exactly_ how it works. It's not practical, but that's what it is, an attack that briefly brings everything to absolute zero and then restores it seconds later. 

If that really is the case, it means Incursio can resist absolute zero temperatures. Either way Esdeath doesn't have the DC to actually kill anyone important in the series, and some may be able to outright resist that attack regardless so she doesn't get very far.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

All visual evidence seems to contradict that, though, is the point I'm making.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 18, 2015)

manidk said:


> All visual evidence seems to contradict that, though, is the point I'm making.



The fact that cold resistance can cancel it means the attack is cold-based. There is, as of now, no way around that fact.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> The fact that cold resistance can cancel it means the attack is cold-based. There is, as of now, no way around that fact.



The fact that this is one character statement vs multiple panels of evidence to the contrary just doesn't sit right here.

If this truly is just an application of cold that freezing objects and people in place, then she isn't leaving a single shred of evidence.  Shit, AgK characters not dropping dead just from the activation of the attack would be a hell of a feat for them, then.  Near AZ temps and they recover instantly with no scars or even frost on their clothes to show for it?


----------



## Sablés (Jan 18, 2015)

Mani, you're not getting it.

It doesn't matter how the attack works but the reality that it can and has been overcome by adapting to cold temperatures and no mention of spacial/temporal resistance. Anyone that can handle that level of cold will resist her Esdese.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 18, 2015)

All I'm getting from this is either how she timefreezes is bullshit or the way it was resisted is bullshit


but whatever this wouldn't be a first and definitely not the last


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Mani, you're not getting it.
> 
> It doesn't matter how the attack works but the reality that it can and has been overcome by adapting to cold temperatures and no mention of spacial/temporal resistance. Anyone that can handle that level of cold will resist her Esdese.



No, I'm getting what is being said here.

I'm disagreeing with it.

Like I said, one character statement(which could very well be a play on words/weird translation) vs literally every panel the attack is shown on doesn't sit right with me as enough evidence to hand-wave it as simply a "freezing attack" that can be overcome with simple cold resistance.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 18, 2015)

manidk said:


> The fact that this is one character statement vs multiple panels of evidence to the contrary just doesn't sit right here.
> 
> If this truly is just an application of cold that freezing objects and people in place, then she isn't leaving a single shred of evidence.  Shit, AgK characters not dropping dead just from the activation of the attack would be a hell of a feat for them, then.  Near AZ temps and they recover instantly with no scars or even frost on their clothes to show for it?



I see what you're doing, and I'm going to tell you now, don't do it, it never ends well.

Do not try to apply physics to this. Otherwise...... 

None of these characters can so much as hit Mach one since we don't see huge sonic booms throughout the fight.

Mein fires a giant laser and the heat from it doesn't charboil anyone near her. Same for Bors and his demonic flamethrower.

Esdeath using her freezing powers doesn't cause huge steam explosions from sudden temperature change.

And so on. This is hardly the first time rule of cool has trumped normal physics.

And it's irrelevant. Tatsumi is specifically mentioned to resist the timestop through cold resistance. Which means cold resistance negates her timestop. FT characters have cold resistance based on surviving fights with a guy who _freezes fire_.

She couldn't hurt them anyway, so it's doubly pointless.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> I see what you're doing, and I'm going to tell you now, don't do it, it never ends well.
> 
> Do not try to apply physics to this. Otherwise......
> 
> ...



It isn't about physics.  It's about simple visual cues that every other author(at least from what I've read/seen) uses to show that an ability is cold based.

The only explanation here that would make any(relative) amount of sense is that Esdese is literally using cold to freeze Time and Space(not the objects within the space directly), and not using whatever mechanics are behind a traditional timestop.

This would mean two things:

Tatsumi _still moved_ in frozen spacetime.

and FT characters will still be frozen, because freezing spacetime is a hell of a lot more impressive than freezing fire.

And last I checked, damage done in timestop stacks.  Not sure how much of a difference it'll make, but yeah.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 18, 2015)

manidk said:


> It isn't about physics.  It's about simple visual cues that every other author(at least from what I've read/seen) uses to show that an ability is cold based.
> 
> The only explanation here that would make any(relative) amount of sense is that *Esdese is literally using cold to freeze Time and Space*(not the objects within the space directly), and not using whatever mechanics are behind a traditional timestop.
> 
> ...


well you do got a point
this actually works better with the others statements and visual effects despite between a bs way to stop time
not all kind of timestop abilities have damage stacking,btw.
this much needs to be shown off by feats


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> not all kind of timestop abilities have damage stacking,btw.
> this much needs to be shown off by feats



I was under the impression(from one of Willy's threads a while back) that it was the same across the board for timestop stacking.

But I'll concede that.

I wonder what good timestop+piecing damage would do here?  I'm not fully aware of the durability/dc gap between Esdese and FT's high tiers.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 18, 2015)

manidk said:


> It isn't about physics.  It's about simple visual cues that every other author(at least from what I've read/seen) uses to show that an ability is cold based.
> 
> The only explanation here that would make any(relative) amount of sense is that Esdese is literally using cold to freeze Time and Space(not the objects within the space directly), and not using whatever mechanics are behind a traditional timestop.
> 
> ...



No, you aren't getting it. It doesn't matter how she did it, or even what she did. It can be negated by cold resistance, and FT characters have that.

And as for being more impressive, he froze the flames themselves. As in, they're still inside the ice, which is physically impossible. And people can resist this without trouble. So no, it doesn't work on them.


----------



## manidk (Jan 18, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> No, you aren't getting it. It doesn't matter how she did it, or even what she did. It can be negated by cold resistance, and FT characters have that.
> 
> And as for being more impressive, he froze the flames themselves. As in, they're still inside the ice, *which is physically impossible.* And people can resist this without trouble. So no, it doesn't work on them.



I'm tempted to just copy and paste your last post about physics here, but meh.

I don't think you're very aware of the difference between freezing something physical, like fire, and the very fabric of our universe.

FT characters have never moved in frozen spacetime, this is a fact.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 18, 2015)

manidk said:


> I'm tempted to just copy and paste your last post about physics here, but meh.
> 
> I don't think you're very aware of the difference between freezing something physical, like fire, and the very fabric of our universe.
> 
> FT characters have never moved in frozen spacetime, this is a fact.



Oh, are you listening to me now?

Fire is a chemical reaction and a release of energy. Freezing it solid violates the laws of physics. There is no way to compare impossibilities on a scale, though if it helps Esdeath can only hold it for a couple of seconds and Gray made it perpetual.

Esdeath has never demonstrated power on a scale comparable to the ice users in FT, and the only point of contention is an ability resisted by someone far weaker than the average mage in FT, yet you insist will work on them because you want it to work.

It was blatantly shown that resisting the cold will nullify the timestop, even if it really is timestop. FT characters have resisted being frozen by characters who can also defy the laws of physics with their ice powers.

And once again, this is irrelevant because Esdeath is too weak to kill nearly an mid-to-high tier even if she could hold them frozen indefinitely.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

None of that changes that FT characters have never moved in a time stop, or adapted to any cold that is capable of straight up freezing space-time.

Fairy Tail, along with basically every shounen's cast, breaks physics with every move they make.  Just because freezing fire is an impossibility doesn't mean it equates with a different impossibilty.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> None of that changes that FT characters have never moved in a time stop, or adapted to any cold that is capable of straight up freezing space-time.
> 
> Fairy Tail, along with basically every shounen's cast, breaks physics with every move they make.  Just because freezing fire is an impossibility doesn't mean it equates with a different impossibilty.



Zeref has and made others move within it. Time stop is irrelevant either way


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Zeref has and made others move within it. Time stop is irrelevant either way



I forgot Zeref existed.  

Just one character out of many, though, doesn't change anything.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> None of that changes that FT characters have never moved in a time stop, or adapted to any cold that is capable of straight up freezing space-time.
> 
> Fairy Tail, along with basically every shounen's cast, breaks physics with every move they make.  Just because freezing fire is an impossibility doesn't mean it equates with a different impossibilty.



They've resisted cold that defied the laws of physics. Unless you can prove one is categorically stronger or weaker than the other, they're both effectively the same thing: Cold that defies physics.

Hell, I can even argue that they're the same thing. Fire is a chemical process involving the release of energy. Change in temperature is caused by a change in energy. Freezing flames is the same as freezing energy, which can't be done by lowering temperature (as that would just put out the flames). Therefore, he's logically freezing time/space inside his ice, maintaining a constant state without actually losing energy.

The above makes at least as much sense as freezing time/space by making it really cold.

Also, mentioning that a fiction ignores physics constantly is not a good argument for them not being able to do it again.



manidk said:


> I forgot Zeref existed.
> 
> Just one character out of many, though, doesn't change anything.



So did I, actually :sweat


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Freezing stuff in place, like Gray and Silver, is still just freezing things in place, no matter what it freezes.

Freezing spacetime itself is a completely different beast.

Honestly, from this point on it's just going to be the two of us arguing, so how about we wait until the next time this pops up?

Maybe we'll get a recap or some shit, possibly an offhand comment in the next chapter.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Freezing stuff in place, like Gray and Silver, is still just freezing things in place, no matter what it freezes.
> 
> Freezing spacetime itself is a completely different beast.
> 
> ...



No, it's the same thing. It's actually exactly the same thing. She's just freezing something that can't be frozen, which is what the FT ice mages did. There is no quantifiable difference.

And you still have no counter for the fact that it can be negated by resisting temperature change.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

My counter is that FT mages have never resisted cold capable of freezing space and time, fella.

Cold that breaks physics isn't treated uniformly across the board.  case by case, application by application is the way we view it here.

Just because Tatsumi can escape this, I wouldn't be comfortable saying he'd resist being frozen in a block of Silver's ice with no problem.  It goes both ways.

Freezing space and freezing stuff isn't the same.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> My counter is that FT mages have never resisted cold capable of freezing space and time, fella.
> 
> Cold that breaks physics isn't treated uniformly across the board.  case by case, application by application is the way we view it here.
> 
> ...



They've resisted physics defying cold, and there is no way to measure that against Esdeath's. You can't definitively say one is greater, which is good for you because this was within the first hundred FT chapters and the characters have become far stronger, and this feat was perpetual as opposed to momentary like hers.

Stop thinking of flames as "stuff". It isn't something physical, it's a release of energy.

Freezing energy would require the ability to freeze space or time or both. You can't stop it by lowering energy, so you would have to make it "freeze" in place by stopping temporal or spatial "movement" of the energy.

All you're saying is "Nope, doesn't work that way because if it did she'd lose". They've resisted comparable feats from characters stronger than her, which means they resist this one as well.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> My counter is that FT mages have never resisted cold capable of freezing space and time, fella.
> 
> Cold that breaks physics isn't treated uniformly across the board.  case by case, application by application is the way we view it here.
> *
> ...


This.
different kinds of powers with different kinds of bullshit applications have different kinds of resistance.
FT ice works as a normal ice (not really, but still within the borders of an average lolfiction)
Esdeath time stop most likely freezes the very fabric of space and time and for some reason incursio bs power up resisted against it.
so yeah... silver would one shot tatsumi but still is likely going to be affected by esdeath timestop.
at least until we get a highlight about how this power works.
Also which scene is that when ft ice doesn't vaps fire ?


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 19, 2015)

> Also which scene is that when ft ice doesn't vaps fire ?


A Pure fire dragon gets turned into an ice mountain.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> This.
> different kinds of powers with different kinds of bullshit applications have different kinds of resistance.
> FT ice works as a normal ice (not really, but still within the borders of an average lolfiction)
> Esdeath time stop most likely freezes the very fabric of space and time and for some reason incursio bs power up resisted against it.
> ...



My problem isn't how it worked but how it was resisted. By "resisting the cold". So unless we have a way of saying one of these things is "colder" than the other, you can argue for them resisting it as much as you can argue the opposite.



shade0180 said:


> A Pure fire dragon gets turned into an ice mountain.



lol damn. I was talking about the fight with the guy who ate Natsu and stole his magic. Grey (Gray?) got pissed and froze the flames solid. The fire dragon thing is actually way more impressive, but that was Demon Slayer ice and was supposed to be some kind of hax thing (I think? Been a while since I read that part.)


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Too much of your argument hinges on a single statement that could very well be a play on words or weird translation, guy.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Too much of your argument hinges on a single statement that could very well be a play on words or weird translation, guy.



So does yours. You base the idea that she freezes space time on statements that translate what she says as such. I'm basing my statement on words that are translated by the exact same people.

And unless you can speak Japanese and can literally translate the sentence for us to prove it's wrong, it stands.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Fortunately, I have multiple statements and a (meh)databook entry.

You have literally a single line that comes across as a pun.

Not that it matters, the applications are still different and thus not equalized.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 19, 2015)

Yeah, I kinda get what Mani's saying and it makes sense. 

Don't see why you guys are bothering then. You have bullshit for both sides, pick the one that's least consistent bullshit, in that case.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Fortunately, I have multiple statements and a (meh)databook entry.
> 
> You have literally a single line that comes across as a pun.
> 
> Not that it matters, the applications are still different and thus not equalized.



Oy vey.

Databooks aren't considered relevant, and she calls her technique "frozen space" twice, once during the initial use and once while explaining that Tatsumi overcame it by adapting to the cold.

And application shouldn't matter in the slightest if we have a statement on what is necessary to resist it and ample demonstration of that kind of resistance in FT. We don't need "timestop resistance" here, just "cold resistance".

Either way, though, I'm done. I like arguing as much as the next guy, but regurgitating the same statements in response to the same statements gets old fast even for me.

So, for arguments sake, she gets fully functional timestop. So for about three seconds she runs around stabbing/slicing away to no effect, then time resumes and she gets turned into an oddly sadistic coat of red paint on a nearby house.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> Oy vey.
> 
> Databooks aren't considered relevant



Thus, the "meh."



> And application shouldn't matter in the slightest if we have a statement on what is necessary to resist it and ample demonstration of that kind of resistance in FT. We don't need "timestop resistance" here, just "cold resistance".



Application totally matters.  I've never said Tatsumi had straight up timestop resistance.  He has resistance to this _application_ of timestop.  FT doesn't.



> Either way, though, I'm done. I like arguing as much as the next guy, but regurgitating the same statements in response to the same statements gets old fast even for me.



It's almost like one of us has already said this.  



> So, for arguments sake, she gets fully functional timestop. So for about three seconds she runs around stabbing/slicing away to no effect, then time resumes and she gets turned into an oddly sadistic coat of red paint on a nearby house.



Fully functional somehow cold based timestop, yeah.  Probably more than three seconds based on her casually strolling around, but who knows?

Piercing damage stack probably helps her a bit I'd wager, but she certainly won't clear, that we can agree on.

Keep in mind I've never stated that she clears the verse or anything, I'm literally only arguing about the mechanics for this one ability.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Thus, the "meh."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*retort instincts twitch violently*

Nope, not falling for that.

I was just basing the three seconds on the second use, where she freezes, then Tatsumi nearly takes her head off, and then she runs out of time before reaching Mine. It could be longer, but like you said, it's largely irrelevant.

How does she get damage stacking, though? Her attacks take place like normal in the frozen space based on her slicing up Suu, so if she can't get through she doesn't get through.

And no one without that level of durability/DC in FT could corner her into using timestop in the first place.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> How does she get damage stacking, though? Her attacks take place like normal in the frozen space based on her slicing up Suu, so if she can't get through she doesn't get through.
> 
> And no one without that level of durability/DC in FT could corner her into using timestop in the first place.



I recall a thread a while back, I think Willyvereb made it, where a consensus was reached that something like punching someone a lot(JJBA example) during a timestop would stack after the timestop was over.

Piercing damage allows for some fighters to hit above their pay grade due to surface area shenanigans, so I'm just saying that could be a key factor hear.

I'm not really caught up on calcs or anything to know just how big the gap is, though.  Which is why I said it helps "a bit."


----------



## DarkTorrent (Jan 19, 2015)

as far as I know it's still high city (possibly low island level depending on that CSK feat) for top tiers


----------



## Sablés (Jan 19, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> as far as I know it's still high city (possibly low island level depending on that CSK feat) for top tiers



How many times must I tell you your opinion is worth nothing, DT-koon?


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> as far as I know it's still high city (possibly low island level depending on that CSK feat) for top tiers



Well, she certainly isn't piercing anything island level, that's for sure.

She can probably venture into Town territory, though.  Without timestop.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Jan 19, 2015)

Liquid said:


> How many times must I tell you your opinion is worth nothing, DT-koon?



as many times as you want

you're almost as irrelevant as Jaime, Poodles


----------



## Regicide (Jan 19, 2015)

Last I checked, we only let JJBA-like timestop stack damage.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Well, she certainly isn't piercing anything island level, that's for sure.
> 
> She can probably venture into Town territory, though.  Without timestop.



how potent is her timestop?

and by that I mean how large is the area it affects and how many actions can she make during it?


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> how potent is her timestop?
> 
> and by that I mean how large is the area it affects and how many actions can she make during it?



So far we've seen it freeze a large throne room, and an entire arena.

Maybe 100 meters in all directions?

Here is the most recent use.



First use.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Last I checked, we only let JJBA-like timestop stack damage.





Interesting.

Was that thread archived?  I can't find it.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Was that thread archived?  I can't find it.


Likely 
What's the point, tho ?
We consider jojo damage stacking legit because the actual damage only resolves after time stop finishes or some bs like this


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> So far we've seen it freeze a large throne room, and an entire arena.
> 
> Maybe 100 meters in all directions?
> 
> ...



From what little I know of JJBA, it's time stop stacks because none of the damage actually lands until the timestop is ended. But Esdeath causes damage during her timestop, which means it still lands separately.

Also, she wasn't town-level but MCB. For now, it'll probably change next chapter since general consensus scales her to Budou, who's about to cut loose.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> From what little I know of JJBA, it's time stop stacks because none of the damage actually lands until the timestop is ended. But Esdeath causes damage during her timestop, which means it still lands separately.



Eh, just a curiosity anyways.



> Also, she wasn't town-level but MCB. For now, it'll probably change next chapter since general consensus scales her to Budou, who's about to cut loose.



Town level is for piercing damage.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 19, 2015)

pretty sure nobody uses that mani


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Liquid said:


> pretty sure nobody uses that mani



Since when?  

There was even a page on the wiki for it...  The last wiki, at least.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> Since when?
> 
> There was even a page on the wiki for it...  The last wiki, at least.



recall something about calc-stacking, since cancerdome shenanigans abused the fuck out of that in '12.


----------



## manidk (Jan 19, 2015)

Liquid said:


> recall something about calc-stacking, since cancerdome shenanigans abused the fuck out of that in '12.



The hell does Cutting/Piercing damage have to do with calc stacking?


----------



## Regicide (Jan 19, 2015)

Sables is just drunk. 

Piercing/cutting attacks increasing effective DC is fine, only the cancerdome didn't use it for some reason I can't remember.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 19, 2015)

manidk said:


> The hell does Cutting/Piercing damage have to do with calc stacking?



"Since X does Y amount of damage when cutting, X must do Y x (Insert BS here) when stabbing"

I think.

Anyway, her high-end DC is from her ice powers, which are most definitely more powerful than her sword skills, so it shouldn't matter anyway.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Jan 19, 2015)

Regicide said:


> only the cancerdome didn't use it for some reason I can't remember.



basically:

"Character A can hurt character B with town level durability, so his DC is town level, but his attacks are concentrated which means he can hurt characters with city level durability" 

or something among these lines spammed in most threads

explaining that it doesn't work that way only helped until another posted came in and posted similar shit

so we decided that it was too complex for the cancerdome to use properly


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 19, 2015)

A good example I remember of that was Misaka's Railgun


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 20, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> basically:
> 
> "Character A can hurt character B with town level durability, so his DC is town level, but his attacks are concentrated which means he can hurt characters with city level durability"
> 
> ...



Yeah, it doesn't work that way.
If a concentrated attack managed to pierce someone who is town level, then it caps at town level.
If it's outputting town level energy by itself, then that's when it's capable of piercing people with city level durability.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 20, 2015)

Do we have any evidence Esdeath can do so? Her only feats reaching MCB level were freezing something large and throwing an ice meteor at something. I honestly don't know about the first one (how do you even translate that to attack power anyway? Just through the energy used to freeze the lake or something?) but the second one was that powerful because of it's mass. If she could compress something like that into a spear and throw it, she might deal some damage, but we don't have anything like that atm.

I don't think Esdeath _can_ concentrate any of her big attacks. That's why she has a sword, but she can't do town level damage with that.


----------



## LordPerucho (Jan 20, 2015)

I think we might bump AGK top tiers to city level because we got a repeat what happened in the anime (Episode 22).


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 20, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> All I'm getting is a blank screen. What was it supposed to show?



It's all you'll be seeing after you're hit by that city level attack


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 20, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> I think we might bump AGK top tiers to city level because we got a repeat what happened in the anime (Episode 22).





MusubiKazesaru said:


> It's all you'll be seeing after you're hit by that city level attack



Okay, I went and found it. Though the only one that should boost is 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Mein, since not only did she overwhelm Budou, she nearly killed herself doing it. It wouldn't really affect Esdeath or Budou themselves.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 20, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> I think we might bump AGK top tiers to city level because we got a repeat what happened in the anime (Episode 22).


lol what?
 of course we don't.

*Spoiler*: __ 



>it totally killed budou for all we know
>pumpkin is akame ga kill nakama punch in the way it can be as strong as it wants to
> we still needs the translation for the context 



i'm not sure even mine can be scalled to it as she can't really control when pumpkin powers up (hell it might even be a one time power of feelings boost+ life and death situation for all we know.)


----------



## LordPerucho (Jan 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



We dont know if he is confirmed dead, first we need to see his body laid out like in the anime.

Esdease only got a small bruise after getting punched in the gut by Tatsumi, Budou was throwing up blood after Tatsumi punched him.

What this chapter confirmed is Esdease >Budou.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 20, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really. Take it in context.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Esdeath threw up a shit ton of ice barriers and even grew ice on herself (which stopped Akame's sword before) and Tatsumi still busted through and pounded her.

Budou took it without any extra defense and was still strong enough to chase them.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 20, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what ?

*Spoiler*: __ 



esdeath could be the almighty queen of underworld who can one shot budou with a spit she isn't getting something from an attack we have no way to know how compares to her or anyone in ver se


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 20, 2015)

Basically as of now they are glass cannon until we have seen them tank shits they fired.


----------



## manidk (Jan 20, 2015)

Pumpkin is extremely situational and basically PoF.

Unfortunately, nothing to be gained from it.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 20, 2015)

manidk said:


> Pumpkin is extremely situational and basically PoF.
> 
> Unfortunately, nothing to be gained from it.



It's too bad, because that was by far the biggest feat so far.
*Spoiler*: __ 



 If Budou had countered/survived it, an argument could be made for town/city level DC/Durability.




Ah well. There's still hope for more I suppose. Tatsumi appears to have finally stepped into the top levels, so maybe his final fight with Esdeath will bring some boosts.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 21, 2015)

LordPerucho said:


> I think we might bump AGK top tiers to city level because we got a repeat what happened in the anime (Episode 22).



yeah, no.
cloud parting feats are worth jack without a proper time frame.


----------

