# SM Jiraiya vs Tobirama



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 27, 2015)

Location: Hidden leaf forest

Starting distance: 250 meters

Intel: They know each other by reputation

Restrictions: No Edo period and Jiraiya can't use frog song

Who wins?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 27, 2015)

Tobirama. He is too fast for Jiraya.


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## RedChidori (Jan 27, 2015)

Hiraishingiri GG


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## Empathy (Jan 27, 2015)

Jiraiya starting in _Sennin Modo_ is pretty large advantage, and the location and distance suit his guerrilla tactics best. He may not be able to win without _Magen: Gamarinshou_ though, but overall I still probably favor him due to the conditions favoring him.

*Edit:* Though, if _Gamarinshou_ were unrestricted, Jiraiya could potentially win with it immediately, as Tobirama approaches him.


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2015)

Jirayia cannot win without frog song , the speed and reaction difference is too vast .


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2015)

Tobirama's reactions are way too high along with Hiraishin which is just overkill.

 If Tobirama can fight Juubito without getting his arm blasted off while KCM Minato can't, then obviously Tobirama wins. I'm hoping you're not giving into the crap that Tobirama is weak b/c he got killed by Kin and Gin.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 28, 2015)

Reactions mean nothing if Jiraiya attacks from stealth. Dust Cloud with a combination of Frog Call greatly favor him, Tobirama wouldn't see it coming and his body would be instantly paralyzed unable to react to an oncoming attack by SM Jiraiya, regardless of his reactions. He'd have no reason avoiding the sonar waves without knowledge, not that he'd be capable of reacting to them without visual aid. 

With 250m between them, reputation knowledge and forest cover, Jiraiya kills him in his cloud.

For those who are going to suggest Tobirama can sense in the cloud, just knowing Jiraiya's position is meaningless. Tobirama cannot effectively avoid Jiraiya's AoE attacks without visual aid (Frog Oil Fire Bullet, Yomi Numa, Goemon or Frog Call), and even then, he cannot sense quick enough to avoid instant-igniting oil, he may avoid the oil but he has no idea it's oil, or that it is going to spontaneously explode into a bonfire of expanding flames, in other words, Goemon and Frog Flame Oil Bullet are serious game-enders against Tobirama, then there's Yomi Numa that he wouldn't even see coming without the cloud, and Frog Call that literally gives no indication of it's presence until you hear it and are paralyzed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

The power scaling and feats and portrayal are so messed up, I legitimately can't tell if SM Jiraiya gives a strong fight, or Tobirama cuts his head off at match start.  Obviously by feats Tobirama can do that, but if Jiraiya had stayed around for the War Arc, he probably would have benefited from the same ridiculous power boost everyone else did to maintain some standing, because _everyone_ got that.  Such is the fate of anybody who died before the manga became incomprehensible.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

Jiraiya wins. 

He already know about FTG as his student is a superior user. He already lived during Tobirama's area and know
about his abilities anyway. His attacks and defences are also superior to Tobirama's, 

Jiriya's portrayed to be superior and he is more relevant and more important to the manga than Tobirama as well.
Which will make him win either way if they ever fought.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

See, I don't know about straight portrayal, because Tobirama beat Madara's brother, who was equal to Madara, and Madara crapped on everyone who wasn't Hashirama in multiples of 5.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The power scaling and feats and portrayal are so messed up, I legitimately can't tell if SM Jiraiya gives a strong fight, or Tobirama cuts his head off at match start.  *Obviously by feats Tobirama can do that,* but if Jiraiya had stayed around for the War Arc, he probably would have benefited from the same ridiculous power boost everyone else did to maintain some standing, because _everyone_ got that.  Such is the fate of anybody who died before the manga became incomprehensible.



Which feats? 
Doing it to featless Izuna?  

and please do not bring up Tobirama getting cut in half as a "feat"


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

The Internet I have currently must be the worst.  



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> See, I don't know about straight portrayal, because Tobirama beat Madara's brother, who was equal to Madara, and Madara crapped on everyone who wasn't Hashirama in multiples of 5.



1- Except Izuna has never been equal to madara.

(Notice that is before even awakening the MS) 

even the 4th Databook only states he is "next" to madara. However, that does not tell us anything. Tobirama is next to Hashirama in the clan as well. Yet, there is a huge gap between them.

2- Jiraiya was stated to be superior to a MS user himself. Yes, people do not accept it. However, it's a fact nevertheless. He was even portrayed to be able to take Pain himself out with info. And since he has Info here, I do not see why would he fall against a weaker ninja than Pain.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

tobirama wins
he is a sensor. so lol guerrilla tactics 
he will see jiraiya coming.
tobirama will use clones they will all be marked and touch every where in the vicitinty 
jiraiya dies


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> tobirama wins
> he is a sensor. so lol guerrilla tactics
> he will see jiraiya coming.
> *tobirama will use clones they will all be marked and touch every where in the vicitinty *
> jiraiya dies



Just curious from where you came with all this certainty when he has never done such a thing in the manga? 

Isn't it easy to say Jiraiya will use equal amount of clones and use the underworld swamp in the entire area where
Tobirama puts his marks?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

Feat feat wise, Minato thought he needed to get on warping Juubito's attack, and as he thought that, Tobirama's _clone_ grabbed Juubito's attack, warped back to Juubito, and then came back to tell KCM Minato not worry about it.  This is the Minato who's boosted by 50% of the kyuubi.  50% of the kyuubi allowed Naruto's footspeed to gain comparisons to Minato, being outshone by a explicitly slower than base clone, from an explicitly weaker than life Edo Tobirama.  When Base Minato was supposed to hold a sizable speed and reactions boost over everyone else in the manga of which Jiraiya was a part of, and could take five actions to Ei's one fastest punch starting when Ei's fist was tickling his nose, Tobirama could reasonably chop Jiraiya's head off.

I know the war arc was painful to read, but please try to pay attention before you laugh at people.

*EDIT:*

Izuna was explicitly said to be equal to his brother.  Madara did pull ahead after he got EMS, but Madara also told us if he hadn't gotten sage sensing and other boosts, that technique Tobirama was so infamous for would have worked on him, and even said they used to close equals, but now it's incredible how far he's pulled ahead.  Regardless, it was also said that the power from Uchiha and Senju bros were so incredible, shinobi in recent history have taken to regarding them as aggrandized legends.  If Jiraiya and others on his level were still out there pulling off stunts on that level, that wouldn't be so unbelievable, would it?

Lastly, I am wearing a Jiraiya set.  My opinion of Jiraiya is therefore extremely biased in favor of Jiraiya, and I said he could lose.  Therefore, the sensible neutral position to take up would be to believe Jiraiya dies miserably.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> [=The Pirate on Wheels;52777363]Feat feat wise, Minato thought he needed to get on warping Juubito's attack, and as he thought that, Tobirama's _clone_ grabbed Juubito's attack, warped back to Juubito, and then came back to tell KCM Minato not worry about it.


Except the one who "came back" was the real Tobirama, not the clone.  



> This is the Minato who's boosted by 50% of the kyuubi.  50% of the kyuubi allowed Naruto's footspeed to gain comparisons to Minato,


Except the shunshin needs to be activated. That's as ridiculous as thinking Sakura is as fast as RM Naruto because she was moving next to him.  
Needless to say, that clone used FTG which is obviously faster than shunshin anyway. 


> being outshone by a explicitly slower than base clone, from an explicitly weaker than life Edo Tobirama.


already explained. And the clones have the exact same abilities like the real.  one. Needless to say
Tobirama's power is almost the same, and his speed is no different than how it used to be. 



> When Base Minato was supposed to hold a sizable speed and reactions boost over everyone else in the manga of which Jiraiya was a part of, and could take five actions to Ei's one fastest punch starting when Ei's fist was tickling his nose, Tobirama could reasonably chop Jiraiya's head off.


Must be why he chop Kin/Gin's heads.  



> I know the war arc was painful to read, but please try to pay attention before you laugh at people.


I did not laugh at you. 
Not to mention you are using an off-panel feat. 

We do not where was Tobirama exactly to begin with. That's like saying Saigutsu is faster than A because he saved Sasuke from him.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> Izuna was explicitly said to be equal to his brother.


Scan. 
(Note, please do not bring mistranslations error as proofs) 


> Madara did pull ahead after he got EMS, but Madara also told us if he hadn't gotten sage sensing and other boosts, that technique Tobirama was so infamous for would have worked on him,


Madara was a sensor before SM. Also, Jiraiya so happened to have those anyways. 
He is a sage and he does have the barrier sensing jutsu. 


> and even said they used to close equals,


No. 


> . Regardless, it was also said that the power from Uchiha and Senju bros were so incredible, shinobi in recent history have taken to regarding them as aggrandized legends.


No. Jiraiya and his teammates are also known as legendaries by the way. 



> If Jiraiya and others on his level were still out there pulling off stunts on that level, that wouldn't be so unbelievable, would it?


Except no one mentioned anything as Tobirama's power. The talking was only about Hashirama and Madara. 
and that was coming from Kabuto who believe he is near the level of the Sage. lol




> Lastly, I am wearing a Jiraiya set. My opinion of Jiraiya is therefore extremely biased in favor of Jiraiya, and I said he could lose. Therefore, the sensible neutral position to take up would be to believe Jiraiya dies miserably.



I am not sure of how that is a proof of anything. It is a well known fact that the Sannin are EXTREMELY underrated, especially around here.
The author himself does not believe in such a thing as he made Jiraiya fights against someone who is at least 2 tiers about Tobirama's level (Pain) 
and made itachi who is at least near Tobirama's level that he would lost to Jiraiya.

On the other hand he did not care about Tobirama losing to people like Kin/Gin. The different in portrayal is painfully obvious.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

> Jiraiya wins.
> 
> He already know about FTG as his student is a superior user. He already lived during Tobirama's area and know
> about his abilities anyway. His attacks and defences are also superior to Tobirama's,
> ...



Jiraya, even in SM, cant react to Tobirama. Tobirama can speedblitz him.

Importance in Manga and knowledge about ability doesnt make him capable of countering that ability. Tobirama wrecks him.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Reactions mean nothing if Jiraiya attacks from stealth. Dust Cloud with a combination of Frog Call greatly favor him, Tobirama wouldn't see it coming and his body would be instantly paralyzed unable to react to an oncoming attack by SM Jiraiya, regardless of his reactions. He'd have no reason avoiding the sonar waves without knowledge, not that he'd be capable of reacting to them without visual aid.
> 
> With 250m between them, reputation knowledge and forest cover, Jiraiya kills him in his cloud.
> 
> For those who are going to suggest Tobirama can sense in the cloud, just knowing Jiraiya's position is meaningless. Tobirama cannot effectively avoid Jiraiya's AoE attacks without visual aid (Frog Oil Fire Bullet, Yomi Numa, Goemon or Frog Call), and even then, he cannot sense quick enough to avoid instant-igniting oil, he may avoid the oil but he has no idea it's oil, or that it is going to spontaneously explode into a bonfire of expanding flames, in other words, Goemon and Frog Flame Oil Bullet are serious game-enders against Tobirama, then there's Yomi Numa that he wouldn't even see coming without the cloud, and Frog Call that literally gives no indication of it's presence until you hear it and are paralyzed.



Except frog song is restricted so 75% of this post is moot. 

And if you honestly think someone who is able to not only register a juubi Jin's shunshin, but tag said jin 4 times before the near instaneous shunshin is finished; is being killed by yoni nomi or Goeman then I don't know what to say . It  takes a single thought to escape those Justu.

Edit: What would frog call do when Tobirama has the ability to FTG at thought ?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

> Which feats?



Putting a FTG mark on Juubito.

Its nice and dandy that you are Tobirama's hater, but lets be objective and rational - SM Jiraya cant win this fight because Tobirama faster. *Much faster.*


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

His speed did not help him against Kin/Gin. The only reason he survived the first second of the fight against
Obito is because he is an ET.



> Jiraya, even in SM, cant react to Tobirama. Tobirama can speedblitz him.


Prove it.


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## Bonly (Jan 28, 2015)

Could go either way, depends on how Jiraiya would start things off imo



Likes boss said:


> Except frog song is restricted so *75% of this post is moot*.



 Not sure if trolling or can't read but just in case, he only mentioned Frog *Call* which is a different jutsu then Frog Song so yeah.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> His speed did not help him against Kin/Gin. The only reason he survived the first second of the fight against
> Obito is because he is an ET.
> 
> 
> Prove it.



And he still was fast enough to put a FTG mark on Juubito. He showed better reflexes than KCM Minato, you know.

As for Kin/Gin fight, you are trying to use events you know nothing about as proofs. Again. It wont help you in this debate, simply because that happened off-panel.

Prove it? Name me at least 1 Jiraya's speed feat comparable to those of Tobirama, who tagged Juubito multiple times.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> And he still was fast enough to put a FTG mark on Juubito


That's nice and all, but he paid his "life" for that. It's really useless if he is able to but a mark on Jiraiya
when he will get killed in the process. 



> Prove it? Name me at least 1 Jiraya's speed feat comparable to those of Tobirama, who tagged Juubito multiple times.


So, you basically can't prove it. Thank you. 
Then, the same thing happened to Tobirama against madara will happen to him here.

Or Jiraiya simply paralysis him with frog Call and kill him after that.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Could go either way, depends on how Jiraiya would start things off imo
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if trolling or can't read but just in case, he only mentioned Frog *Call* which is a different jutsu then Frog Song so yeah.



Or wasn't reading closely .


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## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

> That's nice and all, but he paid his "life" for that. It's really useless if he is able to but a mark on Jiraiya
> when he will get killed in the process.



Jiraya doesnt have physical stats of Juubi Jin whom Tobirama tagged more than once. Also, Tobirama didnt try to dodge Juubito - he wanted to use his Edo Kamikaze style. 



> So, you basically can't prove it. Thank you.
> Then, the same thing happened to Tobirama against madara will happen to him here.
> 
> Or Jiraiya simply paralysis him with frog Call and kill him after that.



I can. Tobirama tagged Juubito more than once. Thats a proof. Because Jiraya doesnt have speed feats even close to that. 

I'll wait for you to remind me Jiraya's speed feats. 

No, it wont. Because Madara is tiers above Jiraya in speed. Especially RT Madara with Hashirama's Sage Mode. 

Frog Call? Frog Song maybe? Which is restricted... 

But even without restrictions, Tobirama can blitz Jiraya. He is too fast for him.


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> [=StarWanderer;52777457]*Jiraya doesnt have physical stats of Juubi Jin* whom Tobirama tagged more than once. Also, Tobirama didnt try to dodge Juubito - he wanted to use his Edo Kamikaze style.



Neither did Madara or kin and Gin. 


> I can. Tobirama tagged Juubito more than once. Thats a proof. Because J*iraya doesnt have speed feats even close to that. *


Neither do Madara, Kin, and Gin. 



> I'll wait for you to remind me Jiraya's speed feats.


Kicking the fuck out of Pain's path. 



> *No, it wont*. Because Madara is tiers above Jiraya in speed. Especially RT Madara with Hashirama's Sage Mode.


It will. 




> Frog Call? Frog Song maybe? Which is restricted...


I said Frog Call. 


> But even without restrictions, Tobirama can blitz Jiraya. He is too fast for him.



No he is not. Needless to say a Kunai is not huring Jiraiya's body with the SM power. Jiraiya can defend himself with his hair as well.


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## Sablés (Jan 28, 2015)

Don't see the point in bringing up Kin/Gin when the circumstances regarding that 'fight' are entirely ambiguous. What we do know however, is that Jiraiya is hopelessly outclassed by feats. Nothing in his arsenal can counter FTG.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

> Neither did Madara or kin and Gin.



But Madara is several tiers above SM Jiraya in speed. And Kin/Gin fight happened off-panel. We dont know anything about what happened there.



> Neither do Madara, Kin, and Gin.



And? Jiraya is slower than aither of them.



> Kicking the fuck out of Pain's path.



Who is a lot slower than aither Madara, or Tobirama.



> I said Frog Call.



Oh, i remember than ability. He wont hit Tobirama with that, becase Tobirama is fast enough to dodge it and can blitz Jiraya.



> No he is not. Needless to say a Kunai is not huring Jiraiya's body with the SM power. Jiraiya can defend himself with his hair as well.



Tobirama also has shunshin. And he can dodge any of his attacks. Plus, he has suiton with which he can attack Jiraya from a distance. 

And untill you bring here Jiraya's feats that are even close to those of Tobirama, i can say that Tobirama is too fast for Jiraya to handle. Its as simple as that.

Also, i dont see why his kunai's wont be effective. Plus shadow clones.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except the one who "came back" was the real Tobirama, not the clone.
> 
> 
> Except the shunshin needs to be activated. That's as ridiculous as thinking Sakura is as fast as RM Naruto because she was moving next to him.
> ...



Tobirama said his clone had this.  Clones aren't as reflexive as the original, hence why two pages later he says clones aren't fast enough to use the hiraishin swap, and says they need to use their real bodies.

That entire exchange was on panel.

Speed is tired to power.  Unless you think that the Edo Tobi in part one was just as fast as the one Sarutobi slapped exploding tags all over.

The reason I brought up Naruto was to show that KCM mode makes you massively faster and better and more reflexive than base.  Add that comparable boost to Tobirama, and you get them performing roughly as well as each other, with some instances of Tobirama's clone outdoing Minato's true body.

I don't understand how your responses address anything I'm saying.


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## ARGUS (Jan 28, 2015)

Tobirama wins this


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Just curious from where you came with all this certainty when he has never done such a thing in the manga?
> 
> Isn't it easy to say Jiraiya will use equal amount of clones and use the underworld swamp in the entire area where
> Tobirama puts his marks?



 
typical hussain 

tobirama invented clones and its how he fights

he cannot see his target, smartest thing to do is to ensure the target cant pinpoint you either 

Yomi numa is hopelessly and laughably overestimated. he sinks them, tobirama creates a clone. swaps with that clone and keeps it going 

jiraiya has no way however to know each and every surface tobirama has marked. seeing that they start the fight at a good distance. 

i was wondering when has jiriaya ever used Ym to sink an entire area and not just a target

funny how i could say that as well 
i wait for u sir troll


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 28, 2015)

With marked clones, marks all around the area and being a sensor i am sure jiraiya will not surprise him/sneak up on tobirama and no way is jiraiya hitting him in a straight up exchange.

Once tobirama gets in a decent range of jiraiya whether he waits for him or bring the battle to him he is going to blitz him. Frog call can't kill/knock people out it's only a distraction that works by irritating the target with sound waves but it won't annoy the second long enough to get a meaningful blow when all he has to do is think to dodge.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

tutu you forgot Yomi numa the jutsu that kills everyone despite no feats to substantiate said claim 
whats funny is how those same people would say amaterasu is shit it didnt burn a fodder samurai 

but hey bias is very present 

tobirama wins quite clearly, guerrilla tactics work better for him that jiraiya despite jiraiya having a larger arsenal 

none are more useful than clones and hirashin


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> [=The Pirate on Wheels;52777587]Tobirama said his clone had this.  Clones aren't as reflexive as the original, hence why two pages later he says clones aren't fast enough to use the hiraishin swap, and says they need to use their real bodies.


Tobirama was talking about the FTG itself that is too slow. Tobirama's swap is not as fast as Minato's either (4th Databook), and yet he could still preform it. Nothing was mentioned in the manga about reflexes though. So, that's irrelevant I suppose. 



> That entire exchange was on panel.


If you are talking about Tobirama taking the Gedu-dama, then no. He came from off-panel obviously. 



> Speed is tired to power.  Unless you think that the Edo Tobi in part one was just as fast as the one Sarutobi slapped exploding tags all over.


No. Minato who has a superior speed to Tobirama stated to be as fast as ever. And as such, we have no reason to believe that their speed was effected. Otherwise, the others would have that same drawback, but they did not. 



> The reason I brought up Naruto was to show that KCM mode makes you massively faster and better and more reflexive than base.  Add that comparable boost to Tobirama, and you get them performing roughly as well as each other, with some instances of Tobirama's clone outdoing Minato's true body


.
Again, the speed needs to be actually used in order for you to say such thing. Naruto himself was attacked by the other Jinchuurikis even though he was in KCM. It is NOT because they are as fast as him, but rather because Kishi was holding him back from using his speed. 

And again, Tobirama's clone used FTG, Minato did NOT. And that was off-panel feat for God's sake. It's just like Hiruzen outdoing Tobirama's real body when he saved Naruto from the Tree.  



> I don't understand how your responses address anything I'm saying.


Then read it again.  


> [=Icegaze;52777629]
> tobirama invented clones *and its how he fights*


Good. So it would be easy for you to show us him using the clones the way you said he would. Because I am sure as hell that I did not see him doing that in any of his fights that we have seen. 




> he cannot see his target, smartest thing to do is to ensure the target cant pinpoint you either


Why wouldn't he? 



> Yomi numa is hopelessly and laughably overestimated. he sinks them, tobirama creates a clone. swaps with that clone and keeps it going


swap with the clone to the swamp? Or do you mean he will create the clone inside the swamp? 



> jiraiya has no way however to know each and every surface tobirama has marked. seeing that they start the fight at a good distance.


It does not matter as the swap covers a huge area. By your logic, and since Jiraiya has a larger amount of chakra than Tobirama (he's a sage) he will create more clones and sink the entire area. lol

or he creates 4 clones, each one look at a direction, and start using Frog Call in the entire place, and there will be no place to run. See how easy is that?  



> i was wondering when has jiriaya ever used Ym to sink an entire area and not just a target


It's to keep up with your fan-fictional things. If you haven't notice yet, I was wondering as well when has Tobirama even done what you said he would...


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain still trying to turn is obviously unbiased opinion fact.

Using the Gin/Kin example is gonna led you nowhere since we *don't know jack* about what happened, only the aftermath


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

Jiraiya is superior to Tobirama by feats. Tobirama needs to use his shunshin when he wants to strike with his Kunai as we saw. His shunshin speed is comparable to the 3rd Hokage (3 in speed) Base Jiraiya has 4.5 in speed. With the barrier, and SM, he can easily counterattack him, or use his hair for defence.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 28, 2015)

By feats and portrayal Tobirama is simply another class of shinobi. Hell hes easily another tier higher possibly even more


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

:rofl

which portrayal exactly? 
He has none except being inferior to Kin/Gin.


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya is superior to Tobirama by feats.



Lolno. SM Jiraiya got destroyed by Pain. Tobirama surprised Juubito.



> Tobirama needs to use his shunshin when he wants to strike with his Kunai as we saw.







> His shunshin speed is comparable to the 3rd Hokage (3 in speed)



Where?



> Base Jiraiya has 4.5 in speed.



Does it really matter against Hiraishin?



> With the barrier, and SM, he can easily counterattack him, or use his hair for defence.



>Counterattacking someone who didn't get instantly fodderised in CQC by SM Madara

Also, are you talking about the same hair armless Oro could somewhat counter?


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> :rofl
> 
> which portrayal exactly?
> He has none except being inferior to Kin/Gin.



Prove that he's inferior to Kin/Gin, despite that both fights (which weren't fair to begin with) weren't show?

Answer: None.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

So hussain in short 
Jiraiya can't sink the area since he has never done it 
And tobirama can't use multiple clones since  he has never shown it 
Is that the gist of it ?
Tobirama still wins as most would agree


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## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

> =Hachibi;52778912]Lolno. SM Jiraiya got destroyed by Pain. Tobirama surprised Juubito.


Lol, Tobirama lost half of his body. He was an edo who get his chakra regenerated. Jiraiya is alive, and does not have those regenerating. Without the ET Tobirama whould have been killed right there.  

Also, Pain would destroy Tobirama utterly anyway. :Sag

You seem a little dense Hachibi. 

Look at the lines behind Tobirama indicating MOVEMENT. It's even classified as Taijutsu because
of the fact that it required his body...



> Hiraishingiri / Flying Thunder God Slash
> Taijutsu
> B-Rank, Offensive, Close to Mid-range
> User: Senju Tobirama
> ...



Unlike the other FTG jutsus which are classified as Ninjutsu. 



> Where?



When they arrived to the war. And if we take the "off-panels" then Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama
when he saved Naruto from the Tree.  


> Does it really matter against Hiraishin?


Obviously it does. The only reason both Minato and Tobirama were countered because their physical movement were less than their opponents. Had Tobirama's shunshin speed been higher, madara would have never been able to dodge it. 



> >Counterattacking someone who didn't get instantly fodderised in CQC by SM Madara


He got defeated. It does not matter instantly or nor. 



> Also, are you talking about the same hair armless Oro could somewhat counter?


Oro countered it because his body can take those types of hits (even though the hair cut through his legs) Tobirama can't do that, can he? 




Hachibi said:


> Prove that he's inferior to Kin/Gin, despite that both fights (which weren't fair to begin with) weren't show?
> 
> Answer: None.



- The fact that he lost twice. The first time with A. The second time when his student stated that it was too much for them (Tobirama and his students) to deal with Kin and the others. 

Even the Databook stated the follow 


> Homura: ?There?s only seven of us including Nidaime-sama? there?s no way??
> Koharu: ?They don?t know our exact location yet. We should lie in wait for them and take them by surprise, giving us a chance to escape??
> (Volume 51, Chapter 481, translation by Sleepy Fans? Sakura)
> Since their days of youth, the two of them had grown in their calm analytical abilities.



So, I believe it's fair to take their statement as credible statement. 



> So hussain in short
> Jiraiya can't sink the area since he has never done it
> And tobirama can't use multiple clones since he has never shown it
> Is that the gist of it ?
> Tobirama still wins as most would agree



I do not know why I always have to explain everything.  
the OP did not mention if they are IC, so I assume they are. Now, making fan-fiction is nice and all, but in reality the characters do NOT do the exact same thing his/her fanboys/girls want them to do. 

- Who cares about what "most" would agree? We are talking about the manga, and the only one
whose his opinion is to be taken seriously is Kishi. 

Most people around here would also agree than Itachi for example can defeat all the sannin at once, or take on all 5 kages. Yet, the manga clearly does not agree with that. Most would agree that Madara is stronger than Zetsu, but the manga made Zetsu wins with utmost easily...etc

"most" is NOT a proof of anything.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 28, 2015)

We haven't really seen Tobirama fight alone so it's hard to say how he would act and how exactly would the fight go. He probably doesn't fight the same way when he's alive and when he's an Edo Tensei, plus he was mostly a support. His fights against Izuna, Madara and the Kinkaku Force weren't shown completely or at all. But with both of them having only reputation knowledge they both have good chances of winning.

Frog Call is a dangerous techniques without knowledge. And so is Hiraishin and with clones, weapons, so many trees and the huge distance he could easily spread marks around and Jiraiya couldn't avoid Asura Path's attack even though he told him he was behind him before he attacked him so Hiraishin will be practically inavoidable for him especially if Tobirama uses multiple clones with Hiraishin.. Though both of them are clone users so that could be helpful in fighting against these techniques and gaining more knowledge on the opponent's abilities.

In my opinion it's close and Tobirama would win if Jiraiya started in base, but I'm not completely sure about this one.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Except frog song is restricted so 75% of this post is moot.
> 
> And if you honestly think someone who is able to not only register a juubi Jin's shunshin, but tag said jin 4 times before the near instaneous shunshin is finished; is being killed by yoni nomi or Goeman then I don't know what to say . It  takes a single thought to escape those Justu.
> 
> Edit: What would frog call do when Tobirama has the ability to FTG at thought ?


Except I never said a thing about Frog Song, I said Frog Call, an entirely different technique.

If he can't see it coming, he cannot effectively avoid it. Why would he avoid sound before it reaches his ears, in a cloud of dust? Your wank is truly comical. 

Power scaling means NOTHING, NOTHING when you cannot identify an opponent's attacks. It's not just Frog Call, it's Yomi Numa, Goemon, Frog Fire Oil Bullet, Food Cart Destroyer and Bunshin feints with Omeda Rasengans, all in the cloud- in a chain attacking combination.

He will not survive against Jiraiya's techniques with blocked AOS, few would.

A paralyzed Tobirama cannot avoid the AoE of Yomi Numa or Frog Oil Bullet once he's affected by Frog Call regardless of FTG, he and his markings are either sunk or burned to nothing, or both. Moreover, there's no guarantee he marks anything before he's hit with Dust Cloud and a subsequent Frog Call, from what I saw Tobirama did not favor using marked kunai.

What's so difficult to understand about the concept of effectively attacking someone who lacks AOS? It is FAR from impossible that SM Jiraiya kills him rapidly in his cloud.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lol, Tobirama lost half of his body. He was an edo who get his chakra regenerated. Jiraiya is alive, and does not have those regenerating. Without the ET Tobirama whould have been killed right there.



>Implying I was talking about that.



> Also, Pain would destroy Tobirama utterly anyway. :Sag



He would put a far better fight than Jiraiya anyway 



> You seem a little dense Hachibi.
> 
> Look at the lines behind Tobirama indicating MOVEMENT. It's even classified as Taijutsu because
> of the fact that it required his body...



I understand your post as if everytime he want to pierce someone, he need to use Shushin (which is retarded since fucking Suigetsu can do that). Even then, SM Jiraiya's reaction are *far* below SM Madara's



> Unlike the other FTG jutsus which are classified as Ninjutsu.



Because they don't require physical contact (bar Rasengan, ofc).



> When they arrived to the war. And if we take the "off-panels" then Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama
> when he saved Naruto from the Tree.



Dude. That's like saying Sasuke > Naruto in speed because the latter arrived first at VotE.



> Obviously it does. The only reason both Minato and Tobirama were countered because their physical movement were less than their opponents. Had Tobirama's shunshin speed been higher, madara would have never been able to dodge it.



Madara was never tagged, which is what I'm talking about.



> He got defeated. It does not matter instantly or nor.



And yet, he lasted longer than Minato 



> Oro countered it because his body can take those types of hits (even though the hair cut through his legs) Tobirama can't do that, can he?



Tobirama is a Senju, which have a stronger life force than the Uzumaki (since they are directly linked to Hagoromo, unlike the Uzumaki who are linked indirectly to him), so it won't be any problem.




> - The fact that he lost twice. The first time with A. The second time when his student stated that it was too much for them (Tobirama and his students) to deal with Kin and the others.



Do.You.Know.What.Happened.During.The.Fights?

This isn't hard to understand.



> Even the Databook stated the follow
> 
> 
> So, I believe it's fair to take their statement as credible statement.



We don't know the strenght of those who helped Gin/Kin.

It's also called being outnumbered


----------



## Sablés (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lol, Tobirama lost half of his body. He was an edo who get his chakra regenerated. Jiraiya is alive, and does not have those regenerating. Without the ET Tobirama whould have been killed right there.



If your judgement wasn't so clouded by bias, you'd see you've noted the fault in your own argument. _Tobirama is an edo_.

That he was able to tag Obito indicates he could follow his speed and promptly react, there  is no getting around this. You use the loss of the left part of his body to undermine the feat without once considering all that amounts to, is that _Tobirama isn't fast enough to tag Obito and abstain from a fatal blow at the same time_ i.e, had he desired, could have dodged instead of trying to mark Obito. The reason he chose not to is as you've stated, Tobirama isn't alive, injuries are inconsequential whereas being able to lock on to Obito at any point in time is vital. 

 Tobirama was the fastest shinobi of his time with physical beasts like Madara and Hashirama present, the latter whose abilities are above Jiraiya's in every conceivable way.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

> Tobirama was talking about the FTG itself that is too slow.



I'm just going to stop you right here.  Instant movement can't be slower or faster.  It's always instant.

The only difference you can have is the speed you can activate your instant teleport, and that is dependent on your reflexes.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain dodges the question once again 
You claim jiraiya would do this or that with no basis I claim tobirama would do this or that with no basis 
You disagree 
fine 
Prove jiraiya will or can sink a battlefield when he has only ever done it to a target and not the area 

Apparently the creator of KB in your mind doesn't know how to use them effectively 

You are right are opinions hold no merit they are just that 

Yours however hold no value even to other NF users


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama was talking about the FTG itself that is too slow. Tobirama's swap is not as fast as Minato's either (4th Databook), and yet he could still preform it. Nothing was mentioned in the manga about reflexes though. So, that's irrelevant I suppose.
> 
> 
> If you are talking about Tobirama taking the Gedu-dama, then no. He came from off-panel obviously.
> ...



Minato stated to be as fast as ever? Scan please.

And do you think Oro's Edo Hokage were as fast as they were alive, or during 4th Shinobi World War?


----------



## Trojan (Jan 28, 2015)

I will return to you later. I am bored now to write anything.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I will return to you later. I am bored now to write anything.



I am bored too, by the way.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jan 28, 2015)

Liquid said:


> If your judgement wasn't so clouded by bias, you'd see you've noted the fault in your own argument. _Tobirama is an edo_.
> 
> That he was able to tag Obito indicates he could follow his speed and promptly react, there  is no getting around this. You use the loss of the left part of his body to undermine the feat without once considering all that amounts to, is that _Tobirama isn't fast enough to tag Obito and abstain from a fatal blow at the same time_ i.e, had he desired, could have dodged instead of trying to mark Obito. The reason he chose not to is as you've stated, Tobirama isn't alive, injuries are inconsequential whereas being able to lock on to Obito at any point in time is vital.
> 
> Tobirama was the fastest shinobi of his time with physical beasts like Madara and Hashirama present, the latter whose abilities are above Jiraiya's in every conceivable way.



Just ignore him. He is the prime example of a "one" panel reader

He doesn't understand the concept/flow of past or future dialog upon events


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Except I never said a thing about Frog Song, I said Frog Call, an entirely different technique.
> 
> If he can't see it coming, he cannot effectively avoid it. Why would he avoid sound before it reaches his ears, in a cloud of dust? Your wank is truly comical.
> 
> ...



Yah I just realized .

Nobody said anything about him seeing it coming, he doesn't need to in the face of frog call specifically . All it does is stop his physical movements; which allows him to easily just FTG away. & we clearly both weren't reading clearly cause I never claimed he would avoid frog call at all. It's not relavant in any sense when he can warp away at thought , and considering how intelligent Tobirama is, chances are he's never getting caught more then once .

Why the hell do you think Tobirama with 250m, reputation of a Sannin and sage, AND KAGE BUNSHIN, is going to have his FTG markers 15 m away ? It's laughable that you think Tobirama can't use one FTG warp and escape all these Justus you just named. As If Jirayia will use Frog call, toad oil bullet, Goeman, food cart, and ODAMA Resengans all back to back in unison without shredding through his chakra. And Tobirama can simply warp 400m into an unknown area at a blink while Jirayia fires massive ass Katon's wasting his chakra into the distance.

You do realize Tobirama can tag other kage Bunshin right ? Meaning he has copies off himself running throughout the forest keeping lookout and providing cover . Jirayia will NEVER destroy all his markings because he won't be able to pin point them all, and running around destroying them all will deplete his chakra. If he magically is able to destroy all the actual marked areas in Tobiramas vicinity, he simply warps to an already moving kage Bunshin . Simple as that .

The problem with Jirayia spamming AoE attacks is that it hurts him more then it does Tobirama. Tobirama can warp to a distant clone and escape the entire thing without wasting much chakra while Jirayia wastes a shit ton trying to catch Tobirama in the AoE.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 28, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Just ignore him. He is the prime example of a "one" panel reader
> 
> He doesn't understand the concept/flow of past or future dialog upon events



I personally think he is a troll.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jan 28, 2015)

Tobirama is significanty faster than him and he can tag him with Hiraishin and that will be a game over for Jiraya. He also has a vast knowledge in Kinjutsu and is very good Suiton user.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

Tobirama doesn't even need to tag his clone to swap with them
he can hirashin to anything linked to his chakra 
He created clones and uses them as distractions in battle 
To think jiriaya gets the drop on him Instead of the other way round is hilarious 
Considering the starting distance . Tobirama uses 2 clones and fans out . The mark any and everything . Throw one or 2 kunai here and there . 

KB+ hirashin is easily one of the best get out of jail free cards 

Frog song is too slow to pull off and frog call merely stops physical movement which doesn't prevent hirashin


----------



## Trojan (Jan 29, 2015)

> =Hachibi;52779370]>Implying I was talking about that.


I don't care what you're talking about. I do care that you have to take the advantage Tobirama had in consideration. 


> He would put a far better fight than Jiraiya anyway


Must be why you couldn't right any argument in that other thread. 



> I understand your post as if everytime he want to pierce someone, he need to use Shushin (which is retarded since fucking Suigetsu can do that). Even then, SM Jiraiya's reaction are *far* below SM Madara's



His jutsu is about surprising the opponent by teleporting to a blind spot. However, after that, yes he needs shunshin which is the point of the lines that indicates movements.  Even, Jiraya does NOT even need to react. SM gives him enough durability. A Kunai is NOT putting him down  

And again, he can use his hair for protection as well. 


> Because they don't require physical contact (bar Rasengan, ofc).


FTG level 2 IS a ninjutsu as well, and you said it yourself about the Rassengan. FTG Giri however required Tobirama's physical movement and strength. And it's even at a lower level than the others.  



> Dude. That's like saying Sasuke > Naruto in speed because the latter arrived first at VotE.


You are just playing silly. 
Regardless that Sasuke went first. In the Hokage it IS meant to be about speed to prove than Minato is faster than them. It's completely useless to us if Kishi wants us to assume that Minato was the only one using his speed while the others were walking normally. 

It's obvious that we should take it as that they were running at their full speed so the point that Kishi is trying to prove can be proven. 



> Madara was never tagged, which is what I'm talking about.


How did you know that? FTG does NOT work without markings.  



> And yet, he lasted longer than Minato


> implying the Juubi's power is a non-factor
> Minato was NOT put down as Tobirama, and he actually weakened Madara severely. 


> Tobirama is a Senju, which have a stronger life force than the Uzumaki (since they are directly linked to Hagoromo, unlike the Uzumaki who are linked indirectly to him), so it won't be any problem


.
I would love if you can prove that. 
because that was only given to the Uzumaki and their red hair is their mark. Something the Senju does not have. 



> Do.You.Know.What.Happened.During.The.Fights?
> 
> This isn't hard to understand.



Yes, what happened is Tobirama got killed. 


> We don't know the strenght of those who helped Gin/Kin.


They were fodders as all the other fodders.


> It's also called being outnumbered


None of the other Kages had a problem of dealing with FAR more fodders than Tobirama. 



> [=Liquid;52779548]If your judgement wasn't so clouded by bias, you'd see you've noted the fault in your own argument. _Tobirama is an edo_.


And because he is an edo he survived.  



> That he was able to tag Obito indicates he could follow his speed and promptly react, there  is no getting around this. You use the loss of the left part of his body to undermine the feat without once considering all that amounts to, is that _Tobirama isn't fast enough to tag Obito and abstain from a fatal blow at the same time_ i.e, had he desired, could have dodged instead of trying to mark Obito. The reason he chose not to is as you've stated, Tobirama isn't alive, injuries are inconsequential whereas being able to lock on to Obito at any point in time is vital.


My understanding of that scan differs than yours. Tobirama had those explosion tags in his body already I.E pulling them out of his chest....
[Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]

and by attacking him that way the explosion tags got attached to Obito's body. The parable of that is Torun 
[Sage Mode Naruto resulting to surprise Frog Kata because he cannot defeat him with conventional Senjutsu or Taijutsu]
upon making contract with his body those bugs got to him. It's not that Torun could have avoid it, or that he reacted to Obito, but they were already there to begin with. The same thing happened with Tobirama. However, he succeeded to put the FTG tag on him. That's how I see it at least. 

As for the last part. What I am telling Hachibi is the fact that he shouldn't ignore that advantage that
Tobirama had. If Jiraiya was an ET, his lost arm would have recovered as well, and he wouldn't have lost that way either. Here, Tobirama is alive, and not ET. So, a critical hit does count. 



> Tobirama was the fastest shinobi of his time with physical beasts like Madara and Hashirama present, the latter whose abilities are above Jiraiya's in every conceivable way.


[/QUOTE]
He was the fastest because of FTG. Not because of his shunshin. Hashirama's speed physical speed, is like Tobirama, and like old Hiruzen (3) who is slower than base Jiraiya (4.5). 

Just like how Minato is the fastest, but his shunshin is inferior to A who was around that time as well. 


> =The Pirate on Wheels;52779854]I'm just going to stop you right here.  Instant movement can't be slower or faster.  It's always instant.
> 
> The only difference you can have is the speed you can activate your instant teleport, and that is dependent on your reflexes.


I know people can't get that through there heads, but I am talking about the Manga here. Tobirama, who invented this jutsu disagrees with you. 

Regardless if you think it does not fit with reality or not that is irrelevant because this manga is not reality, and does not have its rules either. What I said is just what Tobirama himself stated. Nothing more, nothing less. 

And as you can see, nothing of what you said about reflexes or any of that things is stated by Tobirama. Even the swap between them is stated in the databook to be in a higher level in Minato's case than in Tobirama's case. 


> [=Icegaze;52779961]Hussain dodges the question once again
> You claim jiraiya would do this or that with no basis I claim tobirama would do this or that with no basis
> You disagree
> fine
> Prove jiraiya will or can sink a battlefield when he has only ever done it to a target and not the area


Dear Lord! I even explained that to you! 
YOU ARE the one who stated Tobirama would do this, and would do that. I am telling you that is OOC! And even though I explained that before, you still do not get it. 

as for the swam, doing it will get the area as well since it must be done on the ground. 
Look what he did to the snakes with a tiny swamp. The area underneath the snakes got effected obviously. 


> Apparently the creator of KB in your mind doesn't know how to use them effectively


I do not know what does this nonsense of yours have to do with anything. Do you think he forgot that he is the creator of this jutsu in the manga and that's why he did not use them as in your fanfiction? 

Naruto is not the creator of the jutsu, but we do know how he uses this jutsu. Minato is the creator of Rassengan, but he obviously does not use it as Naruto does. Creating a jutsu, and using it are different things. 

Yes, he uses the clones obviously, but we haven't seen him using them as you said he would. Never. 
And I am talking about how the characters normally act and fight in the manga. Not the fanfiction you creates. 



> You are right are opinions hold no merit they are just that
> Yours however hold no value even to other NF users


I do not care. Also, in this case do not waste my time, and/or your time and just stop. Why would you 
even care about I said when it has no value? Just ignore it. It really is that simple. 




StarWanderer said:


> I personally think he is a troll.



OK. I won't waste your (or my) time with response to the other post of yours as well....


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2015)

and we havent seen jiraiya attempt to sink the battle field with YN
what we have seen him do is fail to sink human realm 

so if u say tobirama cant fight as described, fine i agree

then cut it out with the whole jiraiya uses YN as if its a treat when in the manga it has utterly failed to do anything useful 

cant make things up on ur end then disregard every other post.


----------



## Duhul10 (Feb 24, 2015)

Hussain is right . Given the location, i can say that jiraiya just makes himslef a shadow, which was not even sensed by the rinnegan, only after it moved, and starts Gamarinshou, or fucks with goemon which has a very large AOE ( Being limited only by the tight space). In an OPEN field tobirama's FTG MIGHT GG, but under these circumstances .. Neah


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 24, 2015)

Hussain is wrong as always 
Tobirama wins 
Dust cloud is fun 
But tobirama would be just as disadvantaged as jiraiya 
Tobirama is a sensor 
A better one at that than jiraiya


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 25, 2015)

Tobirama low diffs.


----------



## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Jiraiya low diffs given the location


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze , Tobi FTG will not work since jiraiya will turn himself into a shadow, i personally do not think he will sense Jiraiya if Rinnegan barely sensed him only after he passed by.

THE FIGHT

Tobirama enters the forest, so does Jiraiya, having knowledge of reputation , gives him quite an advantage. He will turn on the barrier, and feel tobirama's movements in a wide area. Tobirama will probably make bunshins and look for Jiraiya, while J-man, knowing Tobi reputation will do it with gamarinshou like with Pein. He can use capable kage bunshins with ma&pa to distract Tobi bunshins and then Tobi will be caught in the Frog Song.

If it was open area, it would have been the distance. From 5-10-15 meters, Tobi stomps.


----------



## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

I know that both you, Raikiri and Icegaze are well-known Jiraiya Haters, BIG ones and i know that i will not convince you, even if i will bring more solid arguments, but this is life tiger


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Lol don't sound butthurt 
Am not a jiraiya hater 

Well frog song is not all that fast a technique . What stops tobirama from using ET and his mutually explosive tag jutsu to light the forest up ??

Jiraiya had to run off and had started frog song before pain even found him. Tobirama can very simply never been in that range to begin with . 

But Yh troll why don't you 

Btw epic troll no frog song or ET allowed 

Jiraiya still looses . Good try


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I know that both you, Raikiri and Icegaze are well-known Jiraiya Haters, BIG ones and i know that i will not convince you, even if i will bring more solid arguments, but this is life tiger



Hating on Jiraiya? I love him, and I don't debate characters' strength basing on my personal feelings, anyway. Tobirama is just too fast and smart for Jiraiya. That is.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Tobi still stands no chance in this situation.
 250 m >  gamayu endan gg


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Nice try Raikiri . Once you Said that hebi Sauce and base kakashi STOMP base Jiraiya )))


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 25, 2015)

Tobirama wins this mid diff 

 -- Shunshin alone is too fast for jiraiya, his reactions feats far surpass anything that jiraiya has displayed so he engages him in CQC, pressures him and marks him with the easiest of difficulties, as once that happens jiraiya is as good as dead, 

 -- toads are not landiing a single hit on him, when their attacks were being evaded by deva on foot, tobiramas shunshin being above devas and having the utility of FTG makes them non factor, 

 -- katons are evadeed by FTG, and with clones on the agenda tobirama can use one to shunshin behind jiraiya and slam him down with a hirashingiri

 --  if we consider edos for tobirama here then GKF blows jiraiya up to pieces, he stands no chance here


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2015)

Tobirama wins mid diff


----------



## Mercurial (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Nice try Raikiri . Once you Said that hebi Sauce and base kakashi STOMP base Jiraiya )))



Which is true. Both are too fast for Jiraiya who has no impressive feats or even hype in speed or reflexes without Sennin Mode. Kakashi intercepted and outspeeded Obito (1)(2)(3) who kept up physically with KCM Naruto (4) (albeit not full Shunshin speed, but that's already at worst as fast as V1 Raikage), kept up with Gated Gai more than once (5)(6), kept up with Minato, couterblitzed Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki landing Raikiri on their faces (7). Hebi Sasuke is too fast that he nearly blitzed Deidara (8)(9), and has CS to power up and be even faster than that. On top of this, they have Sharingan precognition, and unblockable Raiton CQC and mid range attacks, like Raikiri, Raiden, Raikiri kunai, Raijuu Tsuiga (Kakashi) and Chidori, Chidori Eiso, Chidorigatana (Sasuke). So Jiraiya basically is too slow to fight them, as they are far faster and have precognition too, and he can't even block their attacks, until you think that Ranjishigami or Hari Jizo can block a fucking Raikiri or Chidorigatana thrust or slash. Jiraiya's Doton: Yomi Numa is negged by Kakashi or Sasuke's Raiton mastery, with Raiton > Doton in the elemental wheel. Jiraiya's summons are powerful and all but they were danced around by fucking Preta Path of Pain, and either Kakashi or Hebi Sasuke are far faster than him, so they aren't troubling such speedsters: they would cut of their limbs with Raiton nintaijutsu or genjutsu the fuck of them with the Sharingan, with Jiraiya having to release the summon. Kakashi dodges Kamayu Endan with Doton underground, Sasuke survives it with Snake Kawarimi. Jiraiya is also especially weak in genjutsu, and Kakashi's genjutsu is proved to be on par with Obito's, who could control perfect jinchuriki and mindfuck Konan or Fu and Torune with ease, and Hebi Sasuke's is at least good to play with Itachi. Both are also smarter than Jiraiya, especially Kakashi who is probably the smartest and most tactical fighter in the manga. Jiraiya is not reaching Sennin Mode also, so he has no chances. Starting in Sennin Mode, he would defeat Hebi Sasuke but probably lose to 3 tomoe Kakashi, who would trick him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin and then kill him with a surprise Raikiri blitz while he is paralyzed; MS Kakashi would obviously neg diff with long range Kamui.

And as you can see I'm definitely not the one who says that Tobirama > SM Jiraiya, actually it's the opposite, you are the only one saying he is not, besides for a known Tobirama hater.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Well there you go butthurt poster 
Not the only one who thinks Tobirama wins 

Lol imagine a Katon kiling a kage hahahhahahah omg worst post ever @duhul 

Jesus 

Jiraiya Katon won't even kill asuma . Not sorry asuma is too strong they won't even kill kankuro yet it's Tobirama who looses to that . Hahaahha


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Well there you go butthurt poster
> Not the only one who thinks Tobirama wins
> 
> Lol imagine a Katon kiling a kage hahahhahahah omg worst post ever @duhul
> ...



(Trying to picture a katon or yomi numa killing a kage)


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

You all are amuzing me . Why can't Both Yn and gamayu endan be used against kage level oponents if J-boss used them against another legendary sannin. You are too butthurt.  From 250 Meters i want you to give me serious counters that tobi can have against gamayu endan, knowing the insane AOE of that jutsu . His only way is to have a tag outside the battlefield or he is fried. I am not underrating tobi , I LOVE him as a character. I think he can win more Times than not ( let's say 6/10 ).
 It is very funny when people downgrade the Gallant  , for the sake of their bit.. Sorry king (Itachi..cough..Itachi ). 
Have a nice day


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Use his water jutsu to counter it 
Lol and am butthurt 
YN failed to kill animal path or was it human 
Also KB swap laughs that shit to the bank 

If Killer B a slower ninja than Tobirama can cross a mountain range in 1 shunshin Tobirama does the same while laughing at you

Do explain why Tobirama hsinf a water wall can't block it when Mei a much weaker ninja with a lot less chakra than madara can block madara Fire jutsu with her suiton 

Go on I'll wait super troll


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

OH and Raikiri you are really stupid . Hebi Sauce's only chance of avoiding yomi Numa is chodori nagashi ( maybe) and he will let His Guard down in that moment ( i want a scan when raiton users cover their feet with raiton chakra ). Sauce doesn't have counters for ranshinigami ( from a very ling distance  animal patch Could not avoid it , and even if he does the hair them will expand with some Sharp long spikes, totala no counter imo ) , neither one of them have Any counter to gamaguchi shibari ( talking about hebi and base kakashi ). In speed i agree about kakashi , but not Sauce. Only a clone of Jiraiya was able to run almost as Fast as pein's BIRD was flying , while he was avoiding it's bombs. THAT WAS ONLY A CLONE. I am not even mentioning what the db says  So better go play with some toys and stop bothering me  
 ,, hebi Sauce > Base Jiraiya " hahahahah


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Lol using anime feats


I would love to see this YN feat that prevents Tobirama from creating a clone outside its range and swapping


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

So what ?

Give me strong manga feats that show hebi Sauce is a Fast ninja


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya low diffs given the location



Jiraya loses, badly. Tobirama is much faster.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Jiraya loses, badly. Tobirama is much faster.


Speed it is not everything  

J-MAN owns him, not mentioning that the 4th db gives him frog katas :**


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Speed it is not everything
> 
> J-MAN owns him, not mentioning that the 4th db gives him frog katas :**



Speed is everything when you can kill your opponent before he can use anything. Tobirama reacted to Juubito multiple times. Even his clone was fast enough to put a FTG mark on Juubito. 

Jiraya is not even close to Tobirama in terms of reaction speed and movement speed. He dies.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Now he has sm sensing 

Canopy barrier + ma&pa sensing + His sensing + ma's tongue . Yup he reeaallyyy has no sensing abilities that can match Fast enemies , nope he hasn't


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Now he has sm sensing
> 
> Canopy barrier + ma&pa sensing + His sensing + ma's tongue . Yup he reeaallyyy has no sensing abilities that can match Fast enemies , nope he hasn't



SM sensing cant help you when you cant move fast enough to strike/dodge/summon/block/use etc.  Ma&Pa wont be there, because Jiraya will get blitzed before he can summon them.

Jiraya cant react to him. Jiraya cant do anything about Tobirama's speedblitz. Jiraya loses.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Dude , it is sm jiraiya vs tobirama. If you have sm jiraiya you have ma&pa because they control his natural energy. With tons of sensing and 250 meters, with a very good durability...geez i can't even believe that you Argue XD


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Dude , it is sm jiraiya vs tobirama. If you have sm jiraiya you have ma&pa because they control his natural energy. With tons of sensing and 250 meters, with a very good durability...geez i can't even believe that you Argue XD



Sorry, my bad. 

Anyway, Tobirama still speedblitz him. He can slice him/hit him lots of times until Jiraya dies. By the way, what durability feats does he have to suggest he can withstand Tobirama's explosive tags, Suiton, taijutsu hits and Kunai hits?


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> So what ?
> 
> Give me strong manga feats that show hebi Sauce is a Fast ninja



Perhaps being referred to as fast like twice in the manga 
Sorry 4 times 
Twice by deidara once by obito
Once by Yamato 

But sure he's slower than base jiraiya 

Mind showing me some speed feats from base jiraiya 

No one foolish enuf would argue hebi sauce is quicker than SM jiraiya 

But base jiraiya give me a fucking break 

As for the match jiraiya has no way of hitting Tobirama with the restrictions present 

Tobirama would have no issue getting to jiraiya. At close range jiraiya WPULD be hard pressed to stay alive . Frog katas is his best option but only works if he has the speed to strike the opponent


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

Well tanking a direct hit from an immense buffallo and Being smashed then into some steel pipes , Being deadly stabbed by huge steel spikes for six Times and still able to move ,  tanking kn4 ( deadly hit right in the chest )- still able to stop the kyubi , while drugged ( he stated that he was barely able to move ) he fought another formidable oponent ( even if incapacitated too)  and was thrown with much strength , making a hole in the land, still picked himslef up, Most of His organs destroyed by Tsunade , still lived. Quite durable don't you think. 

Hashirama didn't show himslef INCREDIBLE speed and reactions, are you assuming he is Fucked by Tobirama too ?

And we are not talking about Edo Tobirama, we are talking about the one that would have been slaugthered by juubito when half of His body was destroyed .


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Well tanking a direct hit from an immense buffallo and Being smashed then into some steel pipes , Being deadly stabbed by huge steel spikes for six Times and still able to move ,  tanking kn4 ( deadly hit right in the chest )- still able to stop the kyubi , while drugged ( he stated that he was barely able to move ) he fought another formidable oponent ( even if incapacitated too)  and was thrown with much strength , making a hole in the land, still picked himslef up, Most of His organs destroyed by Tsunade , still lived. Quite durable don't you think.
> 
> Hashirama didn't show himslef INCREDIBLE speed and reactions, are you assuming he is Fucked by Tobirama too ?
> 
> And we are not talking about Edo Tobirama, we are talking about the one that would have been slaugthered by juubito when half of His body was destroyed .



Tobirama still has enough firepower to kill Jiraya with hundreds/thousands of slices and hits. 

LOL, Hashirama is a speedster. He reacted to Madara multiple times, including CQC and thats why he is very fast. Plus, Madara dodged Tobirama's hit thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode. 

That was a clone, as i remember. 

But even that clone has a chance of killing Jiraya, because he reacted to Juubito by putting a FTG mark on him.


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 25, 2015)

Jiraiyas not even in the same class of shinobi Tobirama is in. They would be tiers apart at this point


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Well tanking a direct hit from an immense buffallo and Being smashed then into some steel pipes , Being deadly stabbed by huge steel spikes for six Times and still able to move ,  tanking kn4 ( deadly hit right in the chest )- still able to stop the kyubi , while drugged ( he stated that he was barely able to move ) he fought another formidable oponent ( even if incapacitated too)  and was thrown with much strength , making a hole in the land, still picked himslef up, Most of His organs destroyed by Tsunade , still lived. Quite durable don't you think.
> 
> Hashirama didn't show himslef INCREDIBLE speed and reactions, are you assuming he is Fucked by Tobirama too ?
> 
> And we are not talking about Edo Tobirama, we are talking about the one that would have been slaugthered by juubito when half of His body was destroyed .



Tobirama is faster than his brother 
That's a fact 
Shut up a deal with it 

All the nonesense you just posted have nothing to do with jiraiya speed or imply he can't be beheaded 
I also like how u concede on jiraiya Katon doing shit to tobirama


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## Duhul10 (Feb 25, 2015)

dude, it was no bunshin. 

And you are talking about Tobi like he is on par with Hagoromo

If you are so solid that tobirama stomps in one attack sm Jiraiya, why didn't he do that to Kim/Gin ? which cannot even compare in speed and reactions to sm jiraiya, actually Darui defeated them and they along some unknown ninjas let's not say they were fodders, but featless, killed our beloved one

so icegaze you assume that tobirama fu_ks hashirama because he is much faster ?

and i am not even going to respond to the mummy )))))


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Lol you idiot never said Tobirama wljld beat hashirama he is simply faster

Also you have any fears fo suggest sm jiriaya is above 2 kyuubi 6 tail ninja ?? 

Butthurt child look at the post so far vast majority are in favor of Tobirama


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## Duhul10 (Feb 26, 2015)

Vast majority means 3 butthurts ?

Those 2  kyubi six tail ninjas  were Fucked by Darui

And i do not remember them speed bltizing Anyone like sm jiraiya Did against pain

And about the argument with juubito .  It wasn't  one on one, because if it was like that Tobi would have died in probably 4-5 seconds. It was like 5 vs 1 and juubito was waiting for their attacks.
So stfu


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Now he has sm sensing
> 
> Canopy barrier + ma&pa sensing + His sensing + ma's tongue . Yup he reeaallyyy has no sensing abilities that can match Fast enemies , nope he hasn't



 Canopy Barrier is going to be useful despite the fact that Tobirama has no abilities that make him invisible? 

 Ma&Pa Sensing is nice, but that doesn't mean it enhances Jiraiya's fighting reactions. From what the fight displayed, they were more useful for assistance rather than enhancing his reactions through sensing.

 Ma's Tongue is impressive, but Tobirama's feats of tagging Juubito and even tagging him with a clone far surpasses being able to take down a Chameleon.

 Jiraiya has nothing here. Jiraiya is outclassed in CQC and his ninjutsu will do absolutely nothing. He does have summons, but those are easily evaded the same Deva Path evaded them and he can go off and create multiple clones and tag his summons and Jiraiya very easily which makes him susceptible to having his head cut off. It's no contest. Tobirama speed blitzes before he even sets up his summons.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> dude, it was no bunshin.
> 
> And you are talking about Tobi like he is on par with Hagoromo
> 
> ...



As i remember, Tobirama himself stated it was a bunshin.

Tobirama is not on par with Hagoromo, but he is superior to SM Tobirama. 

Oh, that Kin/Gin arguement... You wont prove anything with that, because that happened off-panel. We dont know what happened there.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 26, 2015)

Still Those two were defeated by a jonin fodder
And tobirama knew who he was facing but still was left in His own blood .

If we go by feats 
Tobi >>>>kin/gin> fodder darui
If we go by what actually happened it is Exactly the contrary

And jiraiya has shown a very good speed and was using a very consistent shunshin.
The difference between a perfect sage and an imperfect one it is only that the perfect one can balance His natural energy better, So jiraiya sm + ma + pa >= naruto sm ( a perfect sage )  and we have seen naruto speed vs A the third , jiraiya reacted to human patch in 1 second , while attentive to ma&pa shouting in His ears , and tobirama was Fast only because of His FTG , i do not remember him Being that Fast without it and he wil need bunshins to do that, and with full kn jiraiya will not let him :^+ 

Deal with it Itachi fanboys


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Still Those two were defeated by a jonin fodder
> And tobirama knew who he was facing but still was left in His own blood .
> 
> If we go by feats
> ...



 Kin and Gin formed a Coup de tat and ambushed Tobirama, so quite frankly, we have no idea how many people were involved. It literally could have been over 100 shinobi involved. 



> And jiraiya has shown a very good speed and was using a very consistent shunshin.
> The difference between a perfect sage and an imperfect one it is only that the perfect one can balance His natural energy better, So jiraiya sm + ma + pa >= naruto sm ( a perfect sage )  and we have seen naruto speed vs A the third , he reacted to human patch in 1 second , while attentive to ma&pa shouting in His ears , and tobirama was Fast only because of His FTG , i do not remember him Being that Fast without it and he wil need bunshins to do that, and with full kn jiraiya will not let him :^+



 Except Sage Mode relies entirely on the balance of natural energy. It's even implied with how Kabuto portrayed a Perfect Sage or Hashirama's comparison of Naruto's SM to his very own that a perfect sage is superior to an imperfect sage.



> Deal with it Itachi fanboys



 Ouch, where'd you get Itachi from?


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## Duhul10 (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kin and Gin formed a Coup de tat and ambushed Tobirama, so quite frankly, we have no idea how many people were involved. It literally could have been over 100 shinobi involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Show me where it says that perfect sm> in feats than imperfect sm and not only in natural energy balance 

They Could have been 100, but at the same time tobirama Could have been knocked out in 1 second , we cannot know that


the part with Itachi hurt you isn't it ?


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Vast majority means 3 butthurts ?
> 
> Those 2  kyubi six tail ninjas  were Fucked by Darui
> 
> ...



Vs 1 but hurt saying SM jiriaya wins 
Yh 

Fact is Tobirama is faster and can evade everything jiriaya has with no difficulty 

oP should make a poll . Let NF vote to show you how stupid you are being


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## Duhul10 (Feb 26, 2015)

maybe one day i will reach your level of stupidity....forget it , i will never get that close

agree with the poll part, the rest is only your imagination


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## Arles Celes (Feb 26, 2015)

Hmmm.

Tobirama is definitely faster than Jiraiya in base but he may be unable to take full advantage of that due to Jiraiya's summons keeping him busy. Tobirama himself did not show any summons.

He can handle all of Jiraiya's katons with his suitons though.

I dunno about Jiraiya's swam no jutsu but if Tobirama got a marked kunai away from the swamp then even if he is starting to get swallowed by it he can still escape.

Jiraiya needs plenty of time to enter SM so Tobirama must stop him before he does that as it would increase the difficulty for Tobirama significantly.

With SM sensing Jiraiya should be able to handily handle Tobirama's speed but would still need to watch about getting marked. Though SM sensing might allow him to react in the nick of time if Tobirama teleports behind him.

As for bunshins they can both spam just as much I think. Being a Senju, Tobirama's own chakra reserves are logically quite high so I do not necessarily him losing in a stamina contest if the fight gets long.

It all comes down if Tobirama can prevent Jiraiya ffrom entering SM and from using Frog Song.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Show me where it says that perfect sm> in feats than imperfect sm and not only in natural energy balance



 Well, I presented the argument that SM Kabuto is portrayed as being above Orochimaru due to perfecting Sage Mode which was something Orochimaru himself was trying to do as well as Hashirama outright comparing Naruto's Sage Mode to his own due to being a Perfect Sage himself. That's evidence that a Perfect SM > Imperfect SM.



> They Could have been 100, but at the same time tobirama Could have been knocked out in 1 second , we cannot know that



 So bringing up that piece of evidence to support your argument was meaningless.




> the part with Itachi hurt you isn't it ?



 Not really because I don't even know why you mentioned Itachi in a debate like this.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

@duhul 
So you agree with polls? Which would clearly show jiriaya laughably looses yet am the dumb one 
Despite you Being unable to count 
Your cute


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## Duhul10 (Feb 27, 2015)

Actually you are not right, orochimaru did not have sage mode at all, because His Corpse was refusing it , that is no evidence, orochimaru wasn't a sage at all.

I agree with the Poll part because i am already tired to convince you heatgaze
And Arles we are already talking about sm jiraiya , he already has the Sages, read the op


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

Butthurt calling ME hategaze
All is that your final battle cry ?? Fail poster 

Orochimaru has senjutsu btw. His body wasn't strong enough to use it 
Kabuto said so 

Learn to read


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Actually you are not right, orochimaru did not have sage mode at all, because His Corpse was refusing it , that is no evidence, orochimaru wasn't a sage at all.



 That doesn't mean he wasn't unable to use it. Jiraiya's body also wasn't capable of perfecting Sage Mode simply because his body's chakra capacity was not on par with Naruto's who was able to do it.

 That and the fact that Kabuto was referring to Orochimaru unable to become a Perfect Sage, hence why he says "True Sage" instead of just Sage and hence why Orochimaru is capable of replicating a technique that is considered senjutsu. It's clear Orochimaru was an Imperfect Sage, just couldn't master it as he didn't have the body with a high enough chakra capacity or the physical state that allowed him to perfectly balance natural energy within his body which was the same case with Jiraiya.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

> Still Those two were defeated by a jonin fodder
> And tobirama knew who he was facing but still was left in His own blood .



I will repeat myself, because you obviously didnt get it - *it doesnt matter that they defeated Tobirama because we dont know how they did it. We dont know anything about that. *



> If we go by feats
> Tobi >>>>kin/gin> fodder darui
> If we go by what actually happened it is Exactly the contrary



1. Tobi is not as fast as Tobirama. In fact, Tobirama is physically faster and has faster reaction speed.
2. Read what i wrote above. You are using an event you know nothing about as a proof. That wont help you in this debate.
3. Feats wise, Tobirama is physically faster than Obito and is much faster than Jiraya. 



> And jiraiya has shown a very good speed and was using a very consistent shunshin.
> The difference between a perfect sage and an imperfect one it is only that the perfect one can balance His natural energy better, So jiraiya sm + ma + pa >= naruto sm ( a perfect sage ) and we have seen naruto speed vs A the third , jiraiya reacted to human patch in 1 second , while attentive to ma&pa shouting in His ears , and tobirama was Fast only because of His FTG , i do not remember him Being that Fast without it and he wil need bunshins to do that, and with full kn jiraiya will not let him :^+
> 
> Deal with it Itachi fanboys



1. Jiraya has never shown physical speed and reaction speed *even close* to Tobirama's. 
2. Jiraya's SM <<<<<< Naruto's SM. Because Naruto's SM feats are superior.
3. Tobirama could physically react to and tag Juubito and his *clone* could physically react to and tag Juubito. Jiraya is not even remotively close to that.
4. LOL, why did you mentioned Itachi fanboys in your post?


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## Duhul10 (Feb 27, 2015)

1.he still speed blitzed God though 
2.sm jiraiya + ma+ pa >>>>>>>>>>>>>wait there>>>>>>>> sm naruto
3.meaningless they were 5 vs 1 , each one of the other stronger than tobirama and a bigger threat , juubito was not even paying attention to tobirama 
4.because that is what you are )))

OH and when i am saying tobi is just because i am a Little to Lazy to write all His name ( tobirama )


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> 1.he still speed blitzed God though
> 2.sm jiraiya + ma+ pa >>>>>>>>>>>>>wait there>>>>>>>> sm naruto
> 3.meaningless they were 5 vs 1 , each one of the other stronger than tobirama and a bigger threat , juubito was not even paying attention to tobirama
> 4.because that is what you are )))
> ...



loooooooooooooooooooool
your second point is so untrue its not funny. Sm naruto would murder Sm jiriaya. for the simple reason that jiriaya can do nothing but die against chou odama FRS

yh sure he wasnt thats why he ran though him. got tagged then counter attacked by tobirama clone. 

even at 1000000000000 vs 1 jiriaya cant touch someone like juubito 

yh whatever, most posters disagree with you. your fail anywayz


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## Duhul10 (Feb 27, 2015)

most posters mean some itachi tards ?

I was talking about pain arc naruto dumbass

Still nothing impressive, Juubito was not even looking at him, probably he didnt know he was there XD


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

lol still most posters. 
you can stop hating now

itachi isnt even in this thread 

you dumb fuck specify then 

and even at that you are still wrong 

surely he didnt know he was there which is why he ran through him 

tell me how jiriaya would have done better. ill wait for your smart reply


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> 1.he still speed blitzed God though
> 2.sm jiraiya + ma+ pa >>>>>>>>>>>>>wait there>>>>>>>> sm naruto
> 3.meaningless they were 5 vs 1 , each one of the other stronger than tobirama and a bigger threat , juubito was not even paying attention to tobirama
> 4.because that is what you are )))
> ...



1. *Jiraya has no speed feats even close to those of Tobirama.* Add to that Tobirama's variaty with jutsu and Hiraishin. And guess what - Jiraya gets blitzed.
2. SM Naruto > SM Jiraya. Better feats.
3. No its not meaningless since Tobirama reacted to him multiple times. Even his clone was fast enough to put a FTG mark on him. Jiraya's movement speed and reaction speed are many tiers lower.
4. You should read my posts. Because you are terribly wrong.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 27, 2015)

sorry i am not

and don't you understand i am talking about sm jiraiya + ni dai sennin VS Pain Arc SM Naruto
tehnically Naruto is not bringing down Jiraiya before gamarinshou 
and I do not think he can avoid kebari senbon or kawazu naki

I never SAID that JIRAIYA SPEED >TOBIRAMA SPEED, goddammit no, I only said that t Sm jiraiya's speed <= than tobirama without ftg, the gap it is not that big at all, with ftg sure Tobi outclasses Jiraiya, but that if can put the tags effectivelly, if not he doesn't win. If Jiraiya would have knowledge on FTG I am not very sure Tobirama will win more than 4/10, because Tobirama is the type of speedster that relies on the surprise, exactly like minato, because that is what ftg implies
SURPRISE. If you do not have it, especially against 3 sensing enemies ( at least two of them have very good sensing) I do not even think that Tobirama will use it because it is very possible not to be effective


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> sorry i am not
> 
> and don't you understaind i am talking about sm jiraiya + ni dai sennin VS Pain Arc SM Naruto
> tehnically Naruto is not bringing down Jiraiya before gamarinshou
> ...



1. SM Naruto is faster than SM Jiraya and thus can utilise his techniques faster. Thats why he beats SM Jiraya. 
2. <= than Tobirama without FTG? LOL. His *clone* put a FTG mark on Juubito with his physical speed. And Tobirama's reaction speed is the thing that allowed him to tag Juubito and avoid Juubito's attacks. 
3. Knowledge wont help Jiraya since he is not fast enough to react to Tobirama. 

You are not? Maybe you *should* read my posts? 

Can you prove i am Itachi's fanboy? 

Anyway, Jiraya loses.


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## Jabba (Feb 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> It all comes down if Tobirama can prevent Jiraiya ffrom entering SM and from using Frog Song.



Frog Song is restricted.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

By the way, it wasnt Tobirama's clone who tagged Juubito - it was Tobirama himself. My mistake. But nevertheless, that was very impressive to put a FTG mark on him with pure physical speed and reaction speed. Jiraya is tiers lower than Tobirama in speed department.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> sorry i am not
> 
> and don't you understand i am talking about sm jiraiya + ni dai sennin VS Pain Arc SM Naruto
> tehnically Naruto is not bringing down Jiraiya before gamarinshou
> ...



Sm naruto can also summon the ni da sennin can he not? so in that ficitional match up there would be 2 ni dai senin. which means frog call works both ways 

regardless of surprise or not tobirama vastly superior speed gives him the win. same way obito by simply using 1 move gives him the win 99% of time 

hirashin simply vastly outclasses jiriaya arsenal 

tobirama has too many ways of marking a general area that its simply not possible to keep track of all his movements. also note that if through whatever means he can tag the likes of juubito 
jiraiya would be a walking tag to behead 

clones, kunai, marking an area jiriaya doesnt know abotu and jiiaya ends up in range. 

tobirama options are limitless in battle,especially one which allows for geurilla warfare.


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## Pirao (Mar 1, 2015)

Jiraiya summons current Naruto who proceeds to solo.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 1, 2015)

Tobirama's a better ninja, but I don't see him winning.

Hiraishin Giri? Sennin Mode reflexs + Sensor Sennin can have the same effect that what Madara did without any eyes. We saw what Naruto did against the Sandaime Raikage, didn't we?

Second, the only difference between Naruto Sennin Mode and Jiraya is the fact that Jiraya can't get it alone. But that's not the case here (it's in the manga).

Third, Gojuu Kibakufuda doesn't result here too. Gamabunta can just run out of the explosion like Gamakishi and everyone else did.

Gamarinshou can end this, since Tobirama didn't show any feats that can prove that he can defend himself against a Genjutsu like that one, that fucked someone stronger than him.

Pretty equal match, Tobirama's a better ninja overall, more inteligent, consistent, but Sennin Modo it's just too good.

Sennin Mode did the difference between a weak Mugen Onsa and a stronger Mugen Onsa that caught Itachi easily. 

Tobirama has chances? Yes. But I see a balanced match here.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I will repeat myself, because you obviously didnt get it - *it doesnt matter that they defeated Tobirama because we dont know how they did it. We dont know anything about that. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the manga Minato even stated that Tobi's FTG was superior to his and 2nd hokages.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> In the manga Minato even stated that Tobi's FTG was superior to his and 2nd hokages.



First of all, Tobi doesnt have Flying Thunder God technique - he has space-time ninjutsu (Kamui). FTG is a space-time ninjutsu too, but thats not important in out debate.

Almost all Tobi's dodging/reacting feats are done through his Kamui jutsu. Tobirama tagged Juubito, who is much faster than Tobi, with a FTG mark. And later, tagged him several times, as i remember. Also, Tobirama's clone saved KCM Minato from Juubito's Gudoudama and could tag Juubito with it, which is also very impressive. 

Tobirama is faster than Tobi in terms of movement speed and reaction speed. He has better feats.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> Hiraishin Giri? Sennin Mode reflexs + Sensor Sennin can have the same effect that what Madara did without any eyes. We saw what Naruto did against the Sandaime Raikage, didn't we?



His Sennin Mode reflexes are trash compare to Tobirama's reflexes, with which he could tag Juubito. Sennin Sensing wont help Jiraya when he physically cant react. Jiraya's feats are not good enough to say he can deal with Tobirama's speed and Hiraishin.



> Second, the only difference between Naruto Sennin Mode and Jiraya is the fact that Jiraya can't get it alone. But that's not the case here (it's in the manga).



SM Naruto >>>>> SM Jiraya. Perfected SM and better feats.



> Third, Gojuu Kibakufuda doesn't result here too. Gamabunta can just run out of the explosion like Gamakishi and everyone else did.
> 
> Gamarinshou can end this, since Tobirama didn't show any feats that can prove that he can defend himself against a Genjutsu like that one, that fucked someone stronger than him.
> 
> ...



All that stuff gets useless against an opponent who is many times faster than SM Jiraya. Jiraya wont be able to make Frog Song when Tobirama slices him with Kunai, or Suiton. Tobirama can speedblitz Jiraya.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Tobirama's a better ninja, but I don't see him winning.
> 
> Hiraishin Giri? Sennin Mode reflexs + Sensor Sennin can have the same effect that what Madara did without any eyes. We saw what Naruto did against the Sandaime Raikage, didn't we?



 You do realize Tobirama's also a very skilled sensor?

 Madara managing to react against Tobirama's strike doesn't hurt Tobirama here considering Tobirama could so something against Madara unlike War Arc SM Naruto who was blown away and burnt by one of Madara's weaker Katons and SM Naruto (War Arc) >>> SM Naruto (Pain Arc) >>> SM Jiraiya.



> Second, the only difference between Naruto Sennin Mode and Jiraya is the fact that Jiraya can't get it alone. But that's not the case here (it's in the manga).



 No it's not. Mastery is dictated by how well you balance natural energy and how much Natural Energy you can use at once. Jiraiya's skill in Senjutsu was inferior and thus, he was an Imperfect Sage and going by that criteria, his stats that were augmented by Natural Energy paled in comparison to Naruto's.

 You also failed to realize that SM Naruto's Hermit Mode was compared to Hashirama's Sage Mode and you've got to be kidding me if you think Jiraiya's Imperfect Sage Mode even comes close to Hashirama's Sage Mode.



> Third, Gojuu Kibakufuda doesn't result here too. Gamabunta can just run out of the explosion like Gamakishi and everyone else did.



 But Jiraiya's the one who's going to be tagged? 



> Gamarinshou can end this, since Tobirama didn't show any feats that can prove that he can defend himself against a Genjutsu like that one, that fucked someone stronger than him.



 Except Ma and Pa outright stated it takes some time to prepare for it.



> Pretty equal match, Tobirama's a better ninja overall, more inteligent, consistent, but Sennin Modo it's just too good.



 Jiraiya's speed feats don't even compare to tagging Juubito multiple times.



> Sennin Mode did the difference between a weak Mugen Onsa and a stronger Mugen Onsa that caught Itachi easily.
> 
> Tobirama has chances? Yes. But I see a balanced match here.



 Irrelevant because Mugen Osna is far superior to Jiraiya's genjutsu. That's why Animal Path was still physically capable of moving and reacting after Jiraiya used his genjutsu compared to Itachi and Sasuke who were completely paralyzed, so Jiraiya's not replicating that, esp. when Jiraiya himself admitted he was incapable of using genjutsu.

 Well, that and Jiraiya is an Imperfect Sage which means his ability to use Natural Energy to augment his stats is much less than that of a Perfect Sage.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

@narutoX28 dont bother. it doesnt matter how many times it is said tobirama wins. 
some would believe others wont

i mean when people go as far as to say Sm jiraiya>>>>>>Sm naruto then you know all hope is lost


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28 dont bother. it doesnt matter how many times it is said tobirama wins.
> some would believe others wont
> 
> i mean when people go as far as to say Sm jiraiya>>>>>>Sm naruto then you know all hope is lost



Forever...


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 2, 2015)

No no, u guys have reason.

I was confunding Jiraya with Minato. Minato was a perfect sage but he couldn't absorve natural energy quickly, but that's not the case of Jiraya.. Jiraya couldn't even absorve the certain quantity.

Indeed, Tobirama wins this. My bad on the last post.

Howeeeever, I don't see Jiraya being outplayed so hard. I see a balanced match until Tobirama get some knowledge about Jiraya techniques..


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## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

i agree with your assement pluuuufff i never thought it would be an easy battle either. 

however the match has a clear winner is all am saying


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