# Shishio Makoto vs Yukishiro Enishi



## Id (Jul 25, 2005)

Who would win the fight Enishi or Shishio. (this is of course if Shisio was still alive and if Enishi would confront Shishio by himself for the fresh 15-20 min he could last before Shishio becomes extra crispy.)

My vote goes for Shisio he is just Evil, Strong, and skilled. (Took Down Aioshi, Satio, & Sanosuke in one fight)


----------



## vagnard (Jul 25, 2005)

Shishio all the way...Enishi was a pussy who needed Tomoe's smile...His power comes from his motivation to destroy Battousai...he can't fight at the same level he did with Kenshin against other swordman. Kenshin had problems with him because his own doubts and because Enishi style was exclusively designed to defeat Hiten Mitsurugi.

Shishio has more strenght, power, cunning, experience...he trained the fastest swordman in the series: Soujiro...so he wouldn't overcomed by insanity nerves's speed.

He received of all main Hiten Mitsurugi attacks directly (even the vacumm hit of Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki) and had stamina to rise and continue the fight and even then still had the  the power to destroy the floor with his ken ki...and has Kenshin to his mercy....Shishio was defeated by his own weakness not by Kenshin...and he had to fight many others guys too (Saito, Aoshi, Sanosuke) He won against Kenshin in the first round and could have killed him if it wasn't by his friends's interference. 

About Kenshin condition against Shisho...Kenshin was in worst condition against Enishi...he barely could hold his sword anymore...after the battle against Shishio Kenshin was a shadow of his glorious past....like Megumi said...he was hurt..he even fought with bandages....and not only that..he had psychological disadvantage because his past with Tomoe. 

Shishio only know about Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki thanks to Soujiro...Enishi had practically all information about Hiten Mitsurugi and still lost....the first hit of Amakakeru K.O him...unlike Shishio


----------



## CABLE (Jul 25, 2005)

Shishio.   x


----------



## Chillin (Jul 25, 2005)

Shishio is stronger than Enishi. I don't feel like explaining why because vagnard already stated it in his first paragraph. Kenshin hit Shishio directly with the second hit of the Hirameki, although this caused Shishio to go past his limits and eventually die he still took the hit. Kenshin hit Enishi with the first hit (albeit it was an improved version of the original) of the Hirameki. As a matter of fact he didn't even hit him so much as break Enishi's arm and sword with the sheer force of the swing. Enishi was done for after that.


----------



## Ephemeral (Jul 29, 2005)

demon_of_elru_id said:
			
		

> My vote goes for Shishio he is just Evil, Strong, and skilled. (Took Down Aioshi, Satio, & Sanosuke in one fight)



And all three of those guys fought just before. Sano gets his hand broken, Saito gets slashed up all badly, and Aoshi took the Ougi. But still, I vote for Shishio. Kenshin didn't beat him with the Ougi but man, Enishi got his ass PUNKED! =o

But we all know Soujiro > All, why? Because he is the greatest character created.

*^_^*


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Jul 29, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Shishio has more strenght, power, cunning, experience...he trained the fastest swordman in the series: Soujiro...



thats debateable.. if your accounting for kenshin using ARNH (which defeated soujiro ^^), even then i bet hiko is faster, even though we havent seen it.. hiko is just, lets just say.. 2kool4skool



			
				vagnard said:
			
		

> He received of all main Hiten Mitsurugi attacks directly (even the vacumm hit of Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki) and had stamina to rise and continue the fight and even then still had the  the power to destroy the floor with his ken ki...



it is true, even with a blunt sword the ARNH wouldve owned anyone, but.. you have to take into account kenshin was going in without intent to kill (personality trait, rather than skill levels) and if it was a normal katana, the vacuum hit wouldve ripped shishio open ;D



			
				vagnard said:
			
		

> and has Kenshin to his mercy....Shishio was defeated by his own weakness not by Kenshin...



however he DID sort of pull this huge cheapshot on kenshin, sacrificing his own "love".. once again, personality trait rather than skill



			
				vagnard said:
			
		

> and he had to fight many others guys too (Saito, Aoshi, Sanosuke) He won against Kenshin in the first round and could have killed him if it wasn't by his friends's interference.



saito had 2 cut legs, aoshi had just recovered from kenshins ARNH, sano was still wounded from his punchon battle, so they were all 2nd hand condition
also remember that kenshin had to go through aoshi, AND SOUJIRO, who is probably beyond aoshis or saitos skill level


sorry, just alot of things i felt i needed to clear up.. because the kenshin vs shishio battle is always underlooked :s

*BACK TO TOPIC ^^*

my vote for shishio, enishi is a bitch.. haha


----------



## vagnard (Jul 29, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> thats debateable.. if your accounting for kenshin using ARNH (which defeated soujiro ^^), even then i bet hiko is faster, even though we havent seen it.. hiko is just, lets just say.. 2kool4skool



Yes...but that was a technique speed...not base speed. Soujiro seemed to me more faster than Hiko. Kenshin could follow Hiko movements (Kenshin was totally exceeded in everything else: power, experience, skill, etc)



			
				hjkou said:
			
		

> it is true, even with a blunt sword the ARNH wouldve owned anyone, but.. you have to take into account kenshin was going in without intent to kill (personality trait, rather than skill levels) and if it was a normal katana, the vacuum hit wouldve ripped shishio open ;D



Yes...but Kenshin "without intent to kill" and the "blunt sword" are part of Kenshin persona....Battosai doesn't exist more...so part of Kenshin weakness are his ideals...you can't separete them from the person....like Shishio's 15 minutes. 

Even then...Saito fought Battousai many times in the past and survived. So probably his actual opponents are less careful with their defenses because they get confident by fact that Kenshin's sword hasn't edge and they become an easier target. In Saito-Kenshin match...Kenshin could cut his head with a real sword....but the same person in the past suvived many fights against Battousai. 



			
				hjkou said:
			
		

> however he DID sort of pull this huge cheapshot on kenshin, sacrificing his own "love".. once again, personality trait rather than skill



Well...but be a cunning fighter is too part of the overall skill...In the thread case Shishio could use Enishi's mental instability against him.  



			
				hjkou said:
			
		

> saito had 2 cut legs, aoshi had just recovered from kenshins ARNH, sano was still wounded from his punchon battle, so they were all 2nd hand condition
> also remember that kenshin had to go through aoshi, AND SOUJIRO, who is probably beyond aoshis or saitos skill level



Yes... but Shishio vs Kenshin round 1 was an easy victory to Makoto. He could killed him if it wasn't for kenshin gumi's interference who gave time Kenshin to raise again and resist Shishio's last minutes. 



			
				hjkou said:
			
		

> sorry, just alot of things i felt i needed to clear up.. because the kenshin vs shishio battle is always underlooked :s



No problem XD...I believe Shishio was the stronger given the circumstances....if Kenshin had remained with Hiko and completed his training as Battousai during Tokugawa Era he had been the second most powerful in the series after his master. 



			
				hjkou said:
			
		

> my vote for shishio, enishi is a bitch.. haha



I totally agree with you XD


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Jul 29, 2005)

good points ^^
i think they need to make a miniarc based on hiko..
i mean, who doesnt want to see him own every single char in kenshin without trying? haha


----------



## BattousaiMS (Jul 29, 2005)

Enishi... he is stronger faster and more versetile then Shishio, who is slow and would have be chopped shushi if Kenshin was using a real sword.


----------



## Id (Jul 29, 2005)

> BattousaiMS... Enishi... he is stronger faster and more versatile then Shishio, who is slow and would have be chopped shushi if Kenshin was using a real sword.



You kidding right.:S 

Hiko Seijūrō XIII>>Shishio Makoto/"Hitokiri Battōsai" with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki >>>>>Himura Kenshin/Saito Hajime>>>>>>>>Shinomori Aoshi>>>>>Seta Sōjirō>Yukishiro Enishi.

Enishi Is an A class fighter. But Everyone else are gifted fighters. Aside from the fact that Enishi sacrifices defense for greater attack. That makes him an unplaced fighter.

Seta is faster. And more gifted then Kenshin. He developed on its own a technique that matches the ARNH. Plus he is overall faster than "Hitokiri Battōsai". But he does not take a fight serious which is probably the reason why he lost.  I dont think there is anyone as fast as him in the whole series/manga.

"I act serious so people can take me serious" Kenshin.


----------



## Inuyashamish (Jul 29, 2005)

shishio wouldnt even need his 15mts to destroy enishi.  shishio is a much better swordsman than enishi was


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 29, 2005)

Enishi's style was dedicated to being the answer to Hiten Mitsurugi, yes on top of that he's a ridiculously powerful fighter, Kenshin got round this by using his head.

Shishio's a genius himself (he can counter any technique after seeing it once), physically speaking he's also a monster. It's true that Kenshin got hit's that would have been kills with a real sword (like Enishi, well having said that Enishi only fully countered Kuzu Ryu Sen after taking it on a few encounters) but anyway it's not that simple (kinda like Naruto).

As I said, Enishi's style was dedicated to the defeat of Hiten Mitsurugi, sure against any lower swordsman it doesn't matter he'd kill them anyway but in such a high tier it really does matter. Shishio doesn't fight like Kenshin I doubt the low stance would throw him off as much as it did Kenshin. So while Enishi may have been Kenshin's biggest threat (debateable) he wasn't the top fighter in the series (there's a few already listed by others that outrank him).

The only thing I can see happening in favour of Enishi is him pushing Shishio past his limits..if he can do that he might get a victory..Still I think Shishio is far too good a swordsman (and he's far too resiliant).


----------



## pnoypridz (Jul 29, 2005)

imo shishio would win


----------



## Gaaravision (Jul 30, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> good points ^^
> i think they need to make a miniarc based on hiko..
> i mean, who doesnt want to see him own every single char in kenshin without trying? haha


Actually Watsuki wasn't allowed to use Hiko more than he did, by his editor, since, by his own words, Hiko is basically omnipotent in the RKverse. Like the RKverse's answer to Superman, if he'd decided to personally go end  Shishio, you wouldn't see more than 1-2 chapters at most. 

Which is a shame, since Hiko >>> all.


Anyways, I think alot of people are selling Enishi short. Enishi was about as fast as post-Kyoto Kenshin ("You are slightly better at speed, I'm slightly better at strength"). But, he can amp himself, using the Nerves of Insanity, to what looked like Soujiro-ish levels of speed. Enishi's Wattoujutsu is in many ways similar to Kenshin's HMR, that it has alot of technique's to deal with different situations, which is the pure opposite of Shishio's simplistic, yet effective style, with barely a few techniques. The problem with Shishio is that you can't really gauge his strength compared to the others, as Shishio never fought anyone at full strength. All the fighters he took on had sustained injuries in their fights, and were already tired.

Shishio is good, but like Enishi, he also had preptime, seeing alot of Kenshin's moves before they fought. And Enishi has been able to stop Kenshin's two most powerful techniques, something Shishio wasn't able to do. And the Ama Kakeru Ryu no Hirameki that defeated Enishi was noted as being vastly different from how the technique had been executed before (Kenshin had finally made peace with Tomoe's death, and thus was able to perform the technique "perfectly", or at least much better than in the past).

If Enishi amps his speed using Nerves of Insanity I see him outlasting Shishio, unless Shishio can somehow exploit his sonic weakness (if he can hit Enishi with Guren Kaina for example, but that might be too hard at the speeds Enishi is moving at).


----------



## BakaKage (Jul 30, 2005)

It is difficult to to match these two fighters without comparing their fights with kenshin but we should just look at their own matchup without getting kenshin involved as much as possible. Both fights are entirely different situations.

Shisiho has 3 secret swords. insane reaction time (watching out for the left foot, knocking aoshi's sword from his hand when he started his kaiten kenbu, blocking zero shiki). Though he only has 15 minutes his body is indestructible within that period of time.
Enishi on the other hand has 50,000 thousand different kinds of moves (exaggerating ) that all revolve in air and jumping attacks with multiple and fast sword swings. Extremly fast sword swings seeing as he can block all 9 strikes of the Ku Zu Ryusen. somewhat fast in terms of speed. Nerves of insanity.
onto the fight... 
In the beginning of the fight. Simple Watou jutsu moves are mostly blocked by Shishio. Enishi is burned in some places but pretty much ok. Towards the mid-point of the fight Enishi uses his stronger moves because his simple ones are pretty much predicted by Shishio. Catches Shishio open for a split second and attacks but Shishio still manages to parry his attack and grab him by the neck and uses Guren Kaina. Being the masochist that Enishi is he survives and becomes pissed and uses Nerves of Insanity. Every sense is he has is heightened and he is faster than he was before. He pummels Shishio with attacks but Shishio just won't go down. Shishio sensing he is about to lose if he doesn't do anything unleashes Kaga Tsuchi and makes the place (literally) an inferno. Enishi with his sense of touch at 10 times stronger dies of heat stroke.
there you have it according to my analysis. Shishio wins assuming all this happens within 15 minutes, or else...well you know.


----------



## CABLE (Jul 31, 2005)

Remember how if Shishio sees a technique once it won't work again, well Enishi uses the same techniques over and over.


----------



## Shishou (Dec 7, 2005)

OMG, wtf is this.  If they only had animated Enishi outside the shitty OVA, you all wouldn't be claiming Shishio is better.


Shishio was the biggest puss of them all.  He made Kenshin go through other opponents and tire/weaken himself before he would even bother.  

Kenshin vs. Aoshi, quite a few cuts, blood loss, almost had his head cut off.  Lets also remember Kenshins Ougi damages his body quite a bit.

Kenshin vs. Soujiro, Kenshin had to push his body to the limit to outspeed Soujiro.

Kenshin in the end beat Shishio.  Shishio EASILY beat a Tired Saitoh, Sano, and Aoshi(who took the ougi), that is not impressive.  This is the Kenshin who had gone through fights and tired himself out first.  



Now lets look at Enishi.  Nerves of Insanity made him damn near immune to pain, faster, and stronger than Kenshin.  Saitoh mentioned none of them would have stood a chance against Enishi.  But they were all ready, because they truely thought Kenshin was going to lose the battle, and step in to fight Enishi.


Enishi was no doubt, with Nerves of Insanity, Faster and Stronger than Shishio.  He was stronger than Kenshin without Nerves of Insanity.  Enishi also has a range advantage with his sword.  If Enishi were to fight Shishio, at the very least, he would last until Shishio erupted in flames.  But he wouldn't need to do that, he would simply overpower Shishio as Shishio blocked an attack and own the shit outta that Mummy Bastard.


Enishi could have finished off Kenshin during their fight, but he would start punching and kicking Kenshin and shit, out of anger.  Because Enishi wanted him to SUFFER.




Without Nerves of Insanity, yes Shishio is better.  I believe Saitoh said this.  But once the Nerves of Insanity came out, Saitoh didn't believe even Kenshin could beat him.  And Kenshin couldn't!  Kenshin had to be a little cheap bitch and make Enishi destroy his ear drum and get bad Balance so Kenshin could beat him.


----------



## BattousaiMS (Dec 7, 2005)

Enishi is stronger then Shishio. His Watōjutsu was at even with Hiten Mitsurugi. Compared to him Shishio was a joke who would have gotten killed by Kenshin if he had not used a Sakabato. Shioshio got always hit, if Kenshin was using a real katana he would have been long dead before ama kakyu no hira meki came along.


----------



## Freija (Dec 7, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> He received of all main Hiten Mitsurugi attacks directly (even the vacumm hit of Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki) and had stamina to rise and continue the fight and even then still had the  the power to destroy the floor with his ken ki...and has Kenshin to his mercy....Shishio was defeated by his own weakness not by Kenshin...and he had to fight many others guys too (Saito, Aoshi, Sanosuke) He won against Kenshin in the first round and could have killed him if it wasn't by his friends's interference.


well, see it like this, if Kenshin had a real sword Shishou would be dead when Kenshins first attack landed. and i pretty much think Shishou thought kenshin was dead after that blowing glove attack(forgot the name of it), then Kenshin woke up and got like 5 hits in a row and clean ones also, Shishou would be in pieces. anyway, back ontopic:

as far as this topic goes, i say Shishou for the reasons everyone already stated


----------



## Id (Dec 7, 2005)

I propose a ranking System of popular Kenshin Cara.


----------



## DarkLordDragon (Dec 7, 2005)

In this fight Shishio will win, Enishi is nowhere near Shishio even Amakusa is stronger than him

anyway here is the correct ranking of Kenshin's characters:

Hiko Soujiro
Kenshin after his training with his master
Saitou Hajime
Shishio 
Amakusa
Aoshi 
Enishi


----------



## Blue (Dec 7, 2005)

Okay, first of all, I agree. Shishio was the strongest of the _human_ swordsmen. This obviously doesn't include Hiko, since he's actually an alien from the planet Totalownia.

Besides being seriously strong, seriously fast, and seriously skilled, Shishio, as Aoshi put it, was practically immortal. The Ryu no Hirameki's first strike is a one-hit kill, even with a blunt sword. Aoshi and Sojirou only lived because Kenshin learned to control it; he very nearly killed Hiko with his first. 
Shishio took the second, more powerful hit - and instead of being incapacitated for more then an hour like Aoshi and Sojirou, he was up and ready to go again in about 30 seconds. 
So, yeah. Shishio was no joke.

But you guys seriously need to stfu about Enishi being weak compared to the other top characters and simply having the avantage over a Mitsurugi swordsman.
Enishi was (is?) freaking incredible. He did what Shishio (and everyone else ever) couldn't: Avoid the Ryu no Hirameki and parry the Kuzu Ryu Sen. The simple fact that he had prep time doesn't begin to explain that away; Hiko said that the Ryu no Hirameki was _uncounterable_; that means _Hiko_ couldn't do it himself. Enishi did. 
Not to say Enishi > Hiko; but Enishi was no joke either.

So:
1. Hiko
2. Shishio 
3. Battousai = Enishi
4. Rurouni = Saito = Soujiro
5. Aoshi
6. Sanosuke
7. Kaoru, the Oniwabon, and the Juppongatana
8. Everyone else


----------



## Id (Dec 7, 2005)

I have included some of the version kenshin has bien potrayed. The rest of their cast are at their peak. As well as the filler. Its not a complete list just the most popular out of the bunch. As for the Last Tier 5 its Sanosuke at his max and down (Han’ya would not be a match for Anji.

Tier 1 Hiko Seijuro XIII (the strongest!)

Tier 2 Himura Kenshin w/About Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu And peace of mind. 
& Shishio Makoto. 

Tier 3 Hitokiri Battousai &  Saito Hajime & Seta Sojiro & Amakusa Shogo

Tier 4. Himura Kenshin & Uonuma Usui, & Yukishiro Enishi & Shinomori Aoshi, 

Tier 5 Sagara Sanosuke & Han'nya & Yukyuzan Anji.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 7, 2005)

Shishio easily Defeat enishi. Shishio was on a diffrent level. Shishio is faster then Enishi also. 

Shishio blocked every single one of kenshin attacks except for the 9 hits at once one. OMG shishio even caught Saito's blade... and pwned Aoshi! (And frankly Aoshi is God in my opinion, he is to wicked) Does everyone remeber his pwnage during the Enishi Saga.. Omg he is now unbeatable.  

Saito would be a decent match up for Enishi. 

I've been dissing him and all but  Enishi was blocking Kenshin's attacks but OMG Enishi tailored his style specifically to be anti hiten mitsurgi, he was basically reacting before the atatck even started.  And if enishi uses his insane vein popping thing (can't remeber what it's called) where he all sensative to everything and anything Shishio rapes him with fire techniques.

*My order of strength is as follows*
*The God of the Kenshin Verse Is HIKO SEIJURO*
then

Aoshi
Kenshin prime with final ougi
Shishio
Battousai Kenshin
And
*Argh can't remember that kid's name.. the little boy who pwned one of the jipoungata.. *and then got some special final chapters where kenshin and kaorou already had kids. He toke Kaoru style... argh dammit I can't remember but that little bit makes him awesome.

then Enishi/Saito


----------



## RAGING BONER (Dec 7, 2005)

Shishou said:
			
		

> OMG, wtf is this.  If they only had animated Enishi outside the shitty OVA, you all wouldn't be claiming Shishio is better.
> 
> 
> Shishio was the biggest puss of them all.  He made Kenshin go through other opponents and tire/weaken himself before he would even bother.
> ...


wouldn't the nerves of insanity make Enishi more vulnerable to the first secret sword? due to his enhanced senses?

meh, i say Shishio sics Soujiro on Enishi and that cute kid cuts that insane fucker to pieces.


----------



## Id (Dec 7, 2005)

~BONER~ said:
			
		

> wouldn't the nerves of insanity make Enishi more vulnerable to the first secret sword? due to his enhanced senses?
> 
> meh, i say Shishio sics Soujiro on Enishi and that cute kid cuts that insane fucker to pieces.




Thanks why I rank him on my tier list as Tier 4. Under Seto, Saito, close but not at the level of  Aoshi.



> Tier 4. Himura Kenshin & Uonuma Usui, & Yukishiro Enishi & Shinomori Aoshi,


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 7, 2005)

Who is Hiko again?

Also, Shishio was fighting an injured Kenshin too....but yeah, he woulda man ahndled him without the help of his friends...also I believe Aoshi to be tied with Kenshin and besides Kenshin being the main character, it would've ended in a tie with their fight, i mean come on Aoshi forced him to do his trump card, and aoshi knew nothing about the Amakakeru Ryu no Hyrameki(sp?) so i mean, i think in a rematch Aoshi could see it coming, and either dodge it, or stop it.... I LOVE AOSHI!


but in this fight, it is Shishio.


EDIT: btw i mean Aoshi is as strong as Kenshin w/ Amakakeru...I mean i doubt he was just slacking off during those peace times, even tohugh he doesnt want to kill kenshin anymore, i believe he improved himself to be on kesnhin's level.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Dec 7, 2005)

Hiko is the ultimate ideal of a man beast...uh, Kenshins vane and arrogant teacher.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 7, 2005)

oh, that Hiko...now i see. Never knew he was an alien.


----------



## Id (Dec 7, 2005)

Hiko  is god in the kenshin series.


----------



## silent_speech (Dec 7, 2005)

shishio wins this bout, but i really don't think it'd be one-sided one match. 

*enishi's watou jutsu, though being a perfect counter to hiten mitsurugi, still has its benefits, and will probably catch shishio off guard (partly because i believe that shishio will think that enishi is some white-haired punk that he doesn't need to fight seriously). But after seeing enishi's array of moves, he starts fighting seriously and starts the fiery pwnage. Enishi decides to use those nerves of insanity of his, and overpowers shishio, but being extremely devious, crafty, witty, and brutally intelligent, shishio figures out the weakness of the nerves, and proceeds to send enishi to his fiery grave*
Result: Shishio ftw.

OR

*While shishio and enishi are fighting, they accidentally spill a high quality brand of sake in the area. Hiko suddenly appears and beats both their asses, while telling them not to waste such good sake.*
Result: Both are pwned by the god of the RKverse, Hiko Seijuro


----------



## Chamcham Trigger (Dec 7, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Shishio all the way...Enishi was a pussy who needed Tomoe's smile...


I mean...yeah, but did you have to put it so harshley? 
They usually try to have those themes of strength in frienship and crap like that.


----------



## blind51de (Dec 7, 2005)

NoI Enishi would own Shishio utterly.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 8, 2005)

hm... I don't think...Hitokiri Battousai and Enishi Yukishiro are same tier... so Dragon (Kenshin) vs Tiger (Enishi) are same tier from Asian Culture...

My Tiers...

1.0 Tier - Hiko Seijiuro
1.5 Tier - Himura Kenshin w/ Hiten / Enishi Yukishiro 
2.0 Tier - Shishio Makoto
2.5 Tier - Hitokiri Battousai / Himura Kenshin / Hajime Saito / Seta Soujirou
3.0 Tier - Usui Uonuma / Shinomori Aoshi


----------



## Shishou (Dec 9, 2005)

OMG, people.  Go reread Jinchuu, and still try to deny Enishi with Nerves of Insanity would be defeated by Shishio.



Shishio fought Kenshin, who had 2 harsh battles prior.  

Enishi fought Kenshin, who had the pre-battles taken care of by Aoshi/Saitoh/Sano/kid



Enishi was mentally insane.  Remember how hard he punched that one mother fucker who shot at Kenshin/Kaoru after the fight?  Thats pure physical strength.  Hand to hand he would beat Saitoh I bet.


1. Nerves of Insanity.  I feel no pain.
2. Faster.  He exceeded Kenshin's speed, and surpassed his Ougi's speed too I believe.
3. Stronger.  Even without Nerves of Insanity, Enishi was stronger.

Remember when Enishi split the ocean?  





Shishio was not damn nearly as impressive as Enishi.  Shishio needed Kenshin WEAKENED, PLUS he needed to know Kenshin's attacks.  And he still lost fair and square.  By the end of the battle, Shishio was going insane and had nothing left.  His brain was probably dying from his body heat.



Saitoh even mentions none of them could beat Enishi, and they all truely thought Kenshin was going to LOSE.  They didn't think this with Shishio, no no.  Saitoh made an entrance and tried to finish Shishio off, but got owned.  Sano did as well.  Then even Aoshi did.  They all got owned easily, and this is because they had all had intense fights prior to trying a fully rested Shishio.



Enishi was the final series villian, and Kenshin had NO CHOICE but to use a cheap tactic to defeat him.  The Dragon Roar is lame.  Without it, Kenshin would have died.


----------



## Last of the Uchihas (Dec 9, 2005)

Sojiro and Hiko beat them both senseless and continue to fight, Hiko winning.


----------



## Yak (Dec 9, 2005)

Hm, I don't see why Enishi is played down that much. His motivation doesn't really matter since this fight is taken out of the storyline and content anyway, so if his live is in danger he will fight all out (plus, who knows how he changed after the last volume of Kenshin). 

Shishio is a monster, there's no discussion about it, but he knew Himura since he was his successor and he knows Kenshins fighting style. Enishi's style was layed out to beat Hiten Mitsurugi, that could be bad since Shishio doesn't have a real school-style like Kenshin does. He's just a natural extremely skilled and strong fighter. However, Watojutsu could still be a serious treat for Shishio. He might have been the stronger fighter but in terms of swordsman-skill I'd say Hiten-Mitsurugi was above Shishio's "simple" slashing. Enishi would've beat Kenshin with his Wato-jutsu.

This doesn't mean that A beats C because A has already beaten B. We know that pattern and it doesn't really work out all the time. But still I'd say that Enishi could hold himself against Shishio for quite a long time even though he would probably lose in the end.


----------



## Id (Dec 9, 2005)

I belive Shishio is a smarter fighter...more so then Enishi. Hands down. The same weakeness Kenshin Saw in Enishi Shishio would see as well.


----------



## Sever (Dec 9, 2005)

Tier list!?

Godlike - Hiko Soujirou

High Tier - Himura Kenshin(after Kyoto Arc), Amakusa, Shishio, Enishi.

Mid Tier - Okita Soji, Soujiro Seta, Aoshi Shinomori, Saito Hajime, Anji the Destroyer, Usoi(SP, Blind dude)

Low Tier - Jin'nei, Sanosuke, and the rest of the crew.


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

personally Id put Seta Soujiro above both of them. He only lost because Kenshin made him emotional during the fight. Soujiro scoffed at Aoshi's power, and Shishio who thought Aoshi and Kenshin were even didnt think Kenshin stood a chance against him or Soujiro so Im surprised people put Aoshi above Soujiro. Only reason they were so wrong about Kenshin is because Kenshin trained with Hiko.
Hiko is the strongest in the manga, then Kenshin or Soujiro (though Soujiro has a major weakness with emotion), then Enishi or Shishio, then Saitou or Aoshi, Then Sanosuke or adult Yahiko. Those are the 5 top tiers to me.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 10, 2005)

Why the FUCK is Aoshi always in mid-Tier damnit...he is either = to Kenshin, or just slightly less...he is not a mid-tier person...DAMNIT!


----------



## Id (Dec 10, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Why the FUCK is Aoshi always in mid-Tier damnit...he is either = to Kenshin, or just slightly less...he is not a mid-tier person...DAMNIT!




You are right im changing my tier list

Tier 1 Hiko Seijuro XIII (the strongest!)

Tier 2 Himura Kenshin w/ Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu And peace of mind.
& Shishio Makoto.

Tier 3 Hitokiri Battousai & Saito Hajime & Seta Sojiro & Amakusa Shogo, &
Shinomori Aoshi

Tier 4. Himura Kenshin & Uonuma Usui, & Yukishiro Enishi & Udō Jin-e

Tier 5 Sagara Sanosuke & Han'nya & Yukyuzan Anji.


And I belive Yukishiro Enishi vs Udō Jin-e would be a more intresting fight.


----------



## Shishou (Dec 11, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> You are right im changing my tier list
> 
> Tier 1 Hiko Seijuro XIII (the strongest!)
> 
> ...




Oh yes, cause you know Tier 4 should have Enishi.  While Tier 3 has Saitoh.  Saitoh who SAID he would LOSE.



Dear god, alot of you need to reread the manga.  And if my laptop still has the manga on it, when I get it in a week or so, I'll post a better arguement with manga shots.







> I belive Shishio is a smarter fighter...more so then Enishi. Hands down. The same weakeness Kenshin Saw in Enishi Shishio would see as well.



What weakness?  The weakness where if you cause opponent to destroy ear drum, they will get bad vertigo and lose balance?








ALSO, you all say Enishi only won because he knows Hiten Mitsurugi Style's techniques?  How aboot this SHOCKER.  Shishio did too.  Shishio even more or less, had the people fight Kenshin and draw out his techniques.  So Shishio already knew what he was fighting.  

Enishi simply learned a style that would beat Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu.  But this style was still godly.  If Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu is godly, then by all means a style that can counter it, should be on the same level.


Enishi is the Tiger.  Tiger I believe is said to be to counter.

Kenshin is the Dragon.  Dragon I believe is said to be the attack.










Also, LotU.  Hiko would own them all, as he is a god among men.  His whole purpose was to show what the true master of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu is like.  Hiko is so strong, his Kozu Ryu Zen is stronger than the Ougi.  But Saitoh?  Please.  Saitoh is below Kenshin.  I'd rate Saitoh at Aoshi's level, if not a little below.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 11, 2005)

yes, Enishi isn't weaker. Enishi and Kenshin w/Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryu are same Tier.
Tiger draw Dragon from Asian Folklores, right?.

SAME TIER = KENSHIN AND ENISHI. DRAGON AND TIGER.

but Shishio pwned by Kenshin, I don't believe it... Enishi can pwned Shishio or not..

Enishi is really stronger than Saito Hajime / Seta Sojiro / Amakusa Shogo / Shinomori Aoshi


----------



## Shishou (Dec 11, 2005)

Enishi is stronger, and faster than Kenshin.  Same tier sword style.  Shishio won't know Enishi's attacks.  But Enishi won't know Shishio's either.  But Kenshin didn't know them, and he ended up winning.


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

yeah I posted the various versions of kenshin. And no Im not following he said she said crap. Since Enishi only fought Kenshin. and didnt fight Shishio, Sojiro, Saito or Aoshi. I will only go with the feats and abilities they have done thru out the series

Enishi dosnt adapt or change his way of fighting the rest do. 
He attacks with the same pattersns.

What truly makes Kenshin, , Sojiro, Saito or Aoshi. Dangerous is that fact that they can be fluid, and be resourceful.

Not only that Enishi saw the techniques of Kenshin, While Shishio only heard the secret behind the technique huge difference.

And On top of that Enishi foght a shadow of Kenshin self.

Like I said earlier I want to see Enishi fight Jin'nei.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> Enishi dosnt adapt or change his way of fighting the rest do.
> He attacks with the same pattersns.



What makes you say that? The only person Enishi ever fought WAS Kenshin. And Kenshin himself never relied on anything else but his Hiten-Mitsurugi. Why should've Enishi changed his style against Kenshin if everything worked out? He did beat Hiten-Mitsurugi. He only lost because of the fucking nerves of insanity, otherwise that Ryu-meisen-technique wouldn't have had much of an effect on him. Hiten-Mitsurugi was wasted completely even before he went insane.

We don't know how Enishi would react on a different enemy. And learning a style completely by yourself is something you shouldn't take lightly, don't think he can't vary his moves. Enishi saw Kenshins secret move, yes, but did so long after he had developed his anti-Hiten-style. So he developed techniques withouth exaclty knowing how Hiten-Mitsurugi worked.




			
				Id said:
			
		

> What truly makes Kenshin, , Sojiro, Saito or Aoshi. Dangerous is that fact that they can be fluid, and be resourceful.
> 
> Not only that Enishi saw the techniques of Kenshin, While Shishio only heard the secret behind the technique huge difference.
> 
> And On top of that Enishi foght a shadow of Kenshin self.



Again, Enishi saw the techniqes of Kenshin AFTER he developed his style. So this speaks for his genius. 
Enishi isn't fluid? Well, I think he is fluid enough, plus he is probably the most acrobatic fighter. Ramming your sword in the ground and jumping on the hilt, grabbing it and slashing the enemy in mid-air? Jumping high and to another jump in mid-air, precisely at the point where gravity and jump-power cancel each other out? I don't understand why so many fail to see what incredible control of the own body that requires. He's easily up with Kenshin at the end of the manga and Shishio.

Enishi fought a shadow of Kenshin's self?! Kenshin was NEVER that strong as he was in the fight with Enishi. Because he was protecting his friends and his future and he was fighting for Kaoru who he loved. And Hiten-Mitsurugi was still beaten by Enishi, except the ultra-lame move Ryu-meisen which isn't logical at all.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Unless you see Enishi getting a one-hit-kill on Shishio, Shishio takes this easily.

He's stronger.  A LOT stronger.

He's easily fast enough to counter his techniques.

HE WOULD SET ENISHI'S FUCKING HAIR ON FIRE, punch him in the face with one of the punches that knocked Sanouske THE FUNK OUT AND BROKE A WALL, and send those cool glasses into his eyes.

END OF STORY.



> And Hiten-Mitsurugi was still beaten by Enishi, except the ultra-lame move Ryu-meisen which isn't logical at all.



Right, it's not logical, but having giant nerves  is.  He's a man, not a squid (whose nerves sometimes are as long as 15m!)


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

Yakkun said:
			
		

> What makes you say that? The only person Enishi ever fought WAS Kenshin. And Kenshin himself never relied on anything else but his Hiten-Mitsurugi. Why should've Enishi changed his style against Kenshin if everything worked out? He did beat Hiten-Mitsurugi. He only lost because of the fucking nerves of insanity, otherwise that Ryu-meisen-technique wouldn't have had much of an effect on him. Hiten-Mitsurugi was wasted completely even before he went insane.
> 
> We don't know how Enishi would react on a different enemy. And learning a style completely by yourself is something you shouldn't take lightly, don't think he can't vary his moves. Enishi saw Kenshins secret move, yes, but did so long after he had developed his anti-Hiten-style. So he developed techniques withouth exaclty knowing how Hiten-Mitsurugi worked.
> 
> ...




One Enishi still got his ass handed to him by a weaker Kenshin

Two Enishi is lame and when on with the same lame moves since the first time they fought.

Three, Aioshi, Satio, Shishio all in thier match with Kenshin tried to push them selfs with diff tactics.
Kenshin- grabbing the his sword and making it the same length to match Aioshi?s


Aioshi- see the sec fight with Kenshin, see the fight with puppet master, Gein
Satio- See the fight with Kenshin
Shishio- See all the fights.
Seta- Would just speed blitz him to death.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

I honestly think Saitou would kill Enishi.  It's just that, at that point, it was all too troublesome for him.  Kenshin even says that Enishi isn't that great a fighter, he's just well-matched against him, specifically.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> I honestly think Saitou would kill Enishi.  It's just that, at that point, it was all too troublesome for him.  Kenshin even says that Enishi isn't that great a fighter, he's just well-matched against him, specifically.


wrong. Tiger vs Wolf? Tiger >>> Wolf by Asian Culture.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> wrong. Tiger vs Wolf? Tiger >>> Wolf by Asian Culture.



That's impeccable reasoning.

However, by NF logic, me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, hence I'm right.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> Unless you see Enishi getting a one-hit-kill on Shishio, Shishio takes this easily.
> 
> He's stronger.  A LOT stronger.
> 
> ...



Hm, Enishi did hit Kenshin strong enough to blast him into a wall the first time they fought whith his opening Wato-jutsu attack. The second time they fought, he smashed him THROUG a tree. I guess that makes Enishi a complete weakling.



			
				Nybarius said:
			
		

> Right, it's not logical, but having giant nerves  is.  He's a man, not a squid (whose nerves sometimes are as long as 15m!)



I never said that it was logical to have giant nerves, in fact I found that pretty lame myself, but hey, there are many things in Rurouni Kenshin that are completely unlogical. 
Anyway, Hiten-Mitsurugi was already canceled out way before Enishi activated his nerves. I don't see why he wouldn't come up with something against Shishio. And Enishi won't simply die. He survived the Kuzuryusen, just like Shishio he didn't feel any pain. He won't go down by one hit from Shishio and the loser-move Homura Dama isn't really dangerous. It's just a show-off move with cool flames, nothing to be afraid of. As Kenshin said, the fire can't kill you.

As for the Guren Kaina... well, Enishi survived the Kuzuryusen and got some more beating from Kenshin in their first fight before he captured Kaoru. So he will survive this one as well. (By the way, wtf, Guren Kaina was one of the lamest moves ever. It blew of Shishio's glove, knocking Kenshin out and "almost" killing him but his own hand didn't take any damage from the explosion? Yeah right, Shishio is at least as cheap as Enishi is treated).


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

The only way to judge this is clearly through the quality of their henchmen.  Enishi's henchmen were all jokes, except for Venom and Gein the Puppetmaster, and even they went down pretty easily.  Heck, four of his henchmen looked identical!

Shishio, on the other hand, personally trained Seta Soujiro.  It is probable that he thought out Seta's tactics himself, and molded him into the perfect killer that he is.  

Also, Enishi needs strong motivation to fight well--IE, the death of his sister--whereas Shishio is ALWAYS pumped, due to constant adrenaline.

I'll admit, the only reason I am saying all this is that Enishi is a tad too emo for me, and I like Shishio's character design quite a bit better.  However, I will hunt for the panel where Kenshin says Enishi is medicore.  I think he might even (negatively) compare him to Shishio!


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> The only way to judge this is clearly through the quality of their henchmen.  Enishi's henchmen were all jokes, except for Venom and Gein the Puppetmaster, and even they went down pretty easily.  Heck, four of his henchmen looked identical!
> 
> Shishio, on the other hand, personally trained Seta Soujiro.  It is probable that he thought out Seta's tactics himself, and molded him into the perfect killer that he is.
> 
> ...




The henchmen-case... Enishi actually never saw them as his henchmen. He admitted that they just happened to have the same objective as him and he was glad that he found some fools to take care of the bunch around Kenshin, so that he wouldn't have to go up against them and could concentrate on Kenshin solely. 

Plus, it's not really Enishi's fault that his "companions" turned out to be idiots.   I think, Watsuki got a bit tired of the story after he finished the stressing Kyoto arc and it can be seen in the last comments he made in the manga, he talked more about him having way to less free time and in one of his rants he didn't even want to talk about the manga anymore. I believe he was kinda tired of the story and just tried to finish it the best he still could. So of course the Kyoto arc was awesome and had better worked-out characters.

Shishio training Seta proves his strength and skill, I fully agree. See, I don't want to sound as if I thought Shishio was weak. He was awesome in many ways (but not in all^^) and him being kinda the sensei-role for Seta proved the many facettes his character had. Enishi wasn't really played out to be evil, Watsuki said that he wanted to make him more evil but instead it turned out to be too emo and Enishi didn't even look really that badass (probably because he was tired of the manga). 

Of course Enishi needs a strong motivation but hey, Shishio only overcame his own limits because of Kenshin; because he knew - as Hoji stated - that "defeating Battosai means conquering Japan". If you take motivation as the trigger in this fictional fight I could as well say, Shishio won't fight like he did against Kenshin because he doesn't see him as his rival and defeating Enishi wouldn't mean or prove anything. Plus, Enishi sold him his battle-ship, so he wouldn't even bear a grudge against him.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

That battleship was lousy!  You better believe my man Shishio is coming for a refund.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> That battleship was lousy!  You better believe my man Shishio is coming for a refund.



What do you expect? Enishi sure had offered him a whole fleet of the most modern battle ships in the world, but no, Shishio's budget wasn't big enough.   No money-no good ship. The fool blasted everything for his conqering dreams for Japan. Of course he was totally broke. He even had to take over a lousy village because he couldn't afford his own hot springs anymore. Loser.   /joking


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Shishio's hot springs crack just proves his superiority.  Also, look at the woman he pulls with BANDAGES OVER HIS WHOLE BODY (likely including his pee-pee spot).  Can you say hotty?  I would carry her around like a dog any day of the week.

While Enishi is wanking it to pr0n from alt.sex.i*c*st.battousaikilledmysister, Shishio is macking it.  A true man has a great woman beside him.  Shishio represents maturity and family values, albiet twisted, Enishi is a stunted adolescent.  Daddy gonna smack him up.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Shishio had only one whore, he's a complete noob in prostitution. Ask Enishi, he's a mafia-boss. He could bring you thousand of hotties, not just one over-used slut with pale skin.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Psht, Enishi isn't a mafia boss, he's a mafia enforcer, without his connections he could never mack a chick, damn, I bet Houji would do a better job, he at least has Hoe in his name.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

lol, okay, I admit, I'm defeated. The Hoe-ji one just cracked me up. :rofl Now I can't pull anymore jokes. 

Seriously, this is getting way to offtopic. 
I stated my points. Concider them or ignore them, whatever you want.


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

so Houji is mid tier as well?


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

In pulling the ladies, yes.

He is the Shikamaru of Kenshin.


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> In pulling the ladies, yes.
> 
> He is the Shikamaru of Kenshin.




True but................

Im Hiko Soujirou XIII and Ill take all you bitches back to school.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> True but................
> 
> Im Hiko Soujirou XIII and Ill take all you bitches back to school.



Bah, go and do your pottery, old man.


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

Yakkun said:
			
		

> Bah, go and do your pottery, old man.



yeah but the youngins dig the pottery man


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

I really hate that Hiko guy, he's so awesome, you just can't be not envious of him, lol.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

I love how in the scene after the giant is defeated, Hiko fangirls just appear out of nowhere.  They're never shown again in the series.  In fact, I bet they travelled to the fight JUST to swoon over him.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 11, 2005)

okay,... I agree with Who said Enishi would win...

starting I'm new Enishi Fan-boyism.

Kenshin draw Enishi, Kenshin pwned Shishio :amazed. as same Enish pwned Shishio.

Nerves of Insanity is more strength than Shishio .

ENISHI FTW!


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

When Enishi does nerves of insanity, Shishio will laugh so hard Enishi's eardrum will burst.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Weren't those girls the female ninja from the former Oniwa-Banshu group under the old guy? What was his name again... Okina? Yeah, they immediately fell in love with Hiko. Even Yahiko found him awesome. Good that he didn't stay to long or else even the male charas would've gotten gay for Hiko. 

But damn, I wonder who the man was that made the awesome Hiko the man he is. o_O


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Well whoever he is, the current Hiko killed him.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Sure, like all did before. But being the successor of a school isn't obviously just about strenght. Its about morals and values, too. So Hiko XII must've been a great man as well to made Hiko XIII what he is now. Of course Hiko didn't only develope that way because of him. ^^


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

By the way, while we're making fun of techniques (and since I've already pointed out a loud laugh or fart could take out nerves of insanity), allow me to comment on the sublime lameness of a character spending most of his on-screen time FLOATING IN A HOT-AIR BALLOON.

Shishio will throw a rock at the balloon causing Enishi to fall to his death.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

There are many funny things in RuroKen. I wonder why Shishio never tripped over one of his bandages. Or why don't his gloves blow up when he lightens a pipe to smoke? Why is Shishio wearing that strange bandaged helmet with fake hair while he in reality is completely bald? I mean, EVERYWHERE. I wonder if Shisio's weener still works after he got burned so badly.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

How does Shishio pee? 

Does pooping hurt because of all the scar tissue?

Wouldn't Sanouske break every bone in his hand punching rocks all day?  WHAT SORT OF A TRAINING METHOD IS THAT?

Did the makers of King of Fighters ever sue Watsuki?


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> By the way, while we're making fun of techniques (and since I've already pointed out a loud laugh or fart could take out nerves of insanity), allow me to comment on the sublime lameness of a character spending most of his on-screen time FLOATING IN A HOT-AIR BALLOON.
> 
> Shishio will throw a rock at the balloon causing Enishi to fall to his death.




Dont fuck with Enishi ballon. He lost his sister we dont want to here him crying over stupid ballon. 

Enishi and his red ballon. thats the next arc.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 11, 2005)

Nybarius is Anti-Enishi ... there is many Enishi-haters.... :amazed.

you know, Shishio is #1 cheater in Rurouni Kenshin.

Enishi is #1 trust in Rurouni Kenshin. he did saved Kaoru...

HE IS AN ANGEL.

Enishi is younger than Shishio. wow, Enishi would rape Shishio...

Shishio is UGLY FACE!...


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

LOL Kenshin killed Enishi's dad AND his sister and didn't even know who he was.  He got crapped on in every possible way, from orifices I didn't even know existed.  Shishio, meanwhile, replaced the Hitokiri BATTOUSAI due to his sheer badassness.  Imagine if the two of them were put in a prison together.  Enishi would be his bitch in a second!  Then Shishio would take over the prison and use it to conquer Japan.

Also, let's look at the scope of their ambitions.  I will let them speak for themselves.

Shishio: "I wish to conquer Japan and insitute strict martial law that the strong may feast upon the blood of the weak."

Enishi: "Omg you killed my sister" (reaches for tissue)

Hence, Shishio wins.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Shishio only replaced Battosai because he turned into a pacifistic sissy. 
Enishi is emo because Watsuki likes it.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Enishi probably had a Kenshin-shrine somewhere in that palace.  He spent all his time thinking about Kenshin.  Kenshin, meanwhile, hardly even thought about Enishi, despite having killed his father and (arguably) his sister.

Enishi should be on the unrequited love hotline, not going after a dude like Shishio.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Come on, be fair to Enishi! He was traumatized as a child, just like Soujiro. Shishio was probably a spoiled kid with no brothers or sisters, he doesn't even know what it is like to lose a beloved person at that age. Look at Seta, he's one completely screwed person. His bad childhood ruined his character, same with Enishi. Hey, even Aoshi turned into a "demon" after his beloved comrades died and closed his true self deep inside of him. Even SAITO has a complex! "Oh no, Himura isn't Battosai anymore. Now, at the end of the manga he finally wants to fight me but I refuse, because he isn't Battosai anymore, blablablah.". Geez, Saito just crapped his pants because he knew that he would lose against the master move.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

We all know that Saitou would GLADLY lay down his life in battle if he felt that it was needed.  In a sense, Saitou not fighting showed that Kenshin really had changed, to the extent that he had won over his harshest critic and enemy from back in the day.  Saitou never fought for fun, he fought when it was important, and, typically, he fought to the death.  (Except when trying to knock some sense into Sanouske, but in my opinion he saw someone who was potentially powerful, yet arrogant like himself, and he decided to goad him into greatness )  


However,  Shishio never traumatized?  He's been at war since the age of 17.  HIS OWN SIDE FUCKING IMMOLATED HIM.  I'd take my father and sister being killed over total betrayal and immolation any day.  His betrayal, though, made him STRONGER.  Enishi's made him a little emo bitch.


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

When still working for the revolution site, he already planned to take of the country. Traumatized? No way.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

You're just proving my point: that Shishio can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.  All Shishio would have to do is point behind Enishi and say "Look!  It's Tomoe!" and he would turn, then start crying when he saw a shadow which VAGUELY looked like her, and get his head cut off.  KO!


----------



## Yak (Dec 11, 2005)

Yar, but because of that it's not fair to compare their pasts and personalities. Different incidents happened to different characters. The one became a whiny emo-kid, the other went insane.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Enishi was ALWAYS emo.  Even prior to the death of his sister, he was a momma's sister's boy being pushed around by military d00dz.   Prior to his tragedy, Shishio was owning shit.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 11, 2005)

Come on now...Enishi is pretty damn cool(only on VOlume 20 so far) im actually buying th manga's...but so far, Jinchuu has been the best damn arc yet...


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Agreed, Jinchuu is my favorite arc -- uh -- if you're only on Vol 20 you've prolly been spoiled rotten by this thread :<


*Spoiler*: _Don't click this_ 



Kaouru isn't dead, her and Kenshin have a son, and he goes to train with Hiko, but he's a lil' fag0r cause Yahiko beats him down.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 11, 2005)

i already know the ending...thanks to Samurai X:Revenge...although it sucked ass b/c it wasnt drawn out...plus they didnt re-animate Aoshi...you know, someone that HAD more to do with the plot than the Jinei bastard(who got reanimiated) damn i was pissed.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 11, 2005)

Yeah, the OVAs and Revenge are REALLY disappointing, IMO -- almost as bad as the post-Kyoto arc anime fillers ;< (Christian Swordsman / immortal ninja my arse!)

The Jinei fight was pretty sweet, though.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 11, 2005)

yes it was, but not as kool as Aoshi vs. Kenshin(in my opinion) and yes damn that filler...ruined Kenshin for everyone.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 11, 2005)

WTH so many enishi supporters... *Enishi Sucks, he's just well matched against kenshin and develop his style specifically to counter him.* Shishio is stronger then Kenshin. Shishio can kill enishi with his bare hands!!!!!!

Shishio is faster then enishi, Shishio will set his ass on fire and just shoot him gunpowder style. 

And Aoshi Is is not mid tier or partially high he is below hiko seijuro. I rate Aoshi during the enishi arc as being stronger then kenshin with his ougi. For godsake Aoshi was basically evenly matching kenshin... and during the enishi arc he was said to have surpassed all.  

1. Hiko Seijuro
2. Aoshi 
3. Kenshin Himura with ougi/Shishio
4. Soujiro using full shujuchi
5.Saito
6. Batousai Kenshin
7. Old extra chapter version of Yahiko
8.. Enishi

Enishi is garbage and gets owned by all 7 people. 

Kenshin couldn't fight him properly because of emotion stuff.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 11, 2005)

*^*
rofl :rofl, you don't know about Tiger vs Dragon or Chinese/Japanese Culture/Mythology or whatever.

LAST BATTLE = two strongest = Dragon vs Tiger 

actually, Hiko is older than Enishi and Kenshin.

do you really hate Enishi


----------



## Shishou (Dec 11, 2005)

1.  Enishi is more BH than Emo.  BH being a combo of Emoness and Extreme Anger.

2.  Enishi has EVERY RIGHT TO BE EMO.  
     His sister was like his mother to him.  He is a young kid.  He hates Battousai as it is. He was pretty psycho at that age too, attacking kids who juss wanted to play.  Then he has to see his Sister/Mother being murdered by a man who he hates.  He goes more insane, and his hair turns white from shock.  He is living in the ghetto sickly and starving, even eating dead corpses to stay alive.  A rich chinese family finds him and raises him as their son and back to health.  He is angered by their happiness, and kills them.  He then inherites their fortune, and finds a book aboot Watoujutsu.  SELF TEACHES HIMSELF this style, as well as have a Watou created, which is a badass sword.  He trains himself, focused on getting revenge for 15 years.  He also becomes the top mafia or drug lord or whatever it was.

But no, he didn't simply want Kenshin to be killed.  He wanted Kenshin to SUFFER.  And he succeeded.  He made Kenshin fall into EXTREME EMO.  Emo is much worse than BH, cause Emo is essentially you juss laying around crying and feeling sorry for yourself.  While BH has anger with the emo, making it much more interesting.  

3.  Shishio's ambition sucked.  I got betrayed by the government,  so I am going to take over Japan.  Very original, no other villians have ever thought of THAT.  You know, taking over a country and what not.  

4.  Yes Shishio and Kenshin are better than normal Enishi.  And it would make little sense if they didn't.  But it is Nerves of Insanity that makes Enishi insane.  Stronger, Faster, Immune to Pain.  This combined with his Watou and style makes him the best.

5.  You think because his style is a counter style to Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu, that it sucks?  That has no logic.  To COUNTER a style, you have to have a good style.  And countering isn't simply cancelling.  

6.  Kenshin if anything, was more determined to beat Enishi than Shishio.  He had already suffered for some weeks, because of Enishi.  Then he arrived on the island, to find Enishi holding the woman he loves Hostage with plans to kill her.  He won't lose the woman he loves twice, and will put everything into it.  You think he would risk losing Karou "again"?



Perhaps if the Jinchuu arc was animated, you all would realize how badass of a fighter Enishi was.  But the anime has clouded your minds!




> Kenshin killed Enishi's dad AND his sister and didn't even know who he was.



Actually.  Enishi's dad is STILL alive.  He was in the Ghetto with Kenshin, and with Enishi after the fight.  And Kenshin did know who Enishi was, because he came to check up on Tomoe, punched a kid in the face for asking him to play, and then bit the hell out of Kenshin.  He was owning Kenshin even as a little kid!


----------



## Id (Dec 11, 2005)

Enishi is weak and will never achive his full capacity b-cus he lacks hatred......................


----------



## Shishou (Dec 11, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> Enishi is weak and will never achive his full capacity b-cus he lacks hatred......................



LoL.

If Sasgay had the hatred Enishi had, Itachi would be dead by now.


----------



## Crowe (Dec 11, 2005)

Eh, if you wouldnt be mad and go as far as Enishi did after someone killed your family, i'd gladly say that you are retarded, unless your family hates/despites you.

Anyway, i feel like Shishio is on a higher level then Einishi. 

1, Hiko
2, Seta Sejirio
3, Random noob
4, Random noob


----------



## Zoro - inactive (Dec 15, 2005)

BattousaiMS said:
			
		

> Enishi is stronger then Shishio. His Watōjutsu was at even with Hiten Mitsurugi. Compared to him Shishio was a joke who would have gotten killed by Kenshin if he had not used a Sakabato. Shioshio got always hit, if Kenshin was using a real katana he would have been long dead before ama kakyu no hira meki came along.


Yeah Enishi>Shishio!


----------



## Ephemeral (Dec 16, 2005)

I don't know but I'll just say Shishio > Enishi. Enishi uses most of his techiques over and over, Shishio needs 1 look at it to counter. =O


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 16, 2005)

If Shishio got to watch Kenshin's ougi from a balloon, he would be able to counter it.

Enishi, however, lost his shit when Kenshin merely put his sword away.


----------



## blind51de (Dec 17, 2005)

I've recently reread the manga, and have to agree with this tried/tested top 10 from my home board (courtesy of Captain Panda).

_10 - Myojin Yahiko (teenage) - The kid's insane. At the age of 15, he's a skilled swordsman using his own fusion of Kamiya Kasshin and Hiten Mitsurugi styles, and is capable of blocking any sword technique with his bare hands. Potentially, he stands to make number one on the list, I'd say, but as far as we see him progress, he's still back quite a ways.

#9 - Sagara Sannosuke - The eternal second banana, Kenshin's equal in spirit if not overall fighting ability. Still, the Futae no Kiwami gives impressive power, and his stamina really is something to be applauded. The only ones who stand a chance against him at his full potential are the truest masters.

#8 - Hitokiri Battousai - Separate from Kenshin because they're very different individuals. Battousai is lethal almost to perfection, however, his self-sacrificing nature keeps his overall ability low compared to the highest tiered folks. Still, he's practically EAGER to dispense lethal force, and quite good at it, which makes him hard to beat.

#7 - Saitou Hajime - Saitou's a skilled fella, and actually had the upper hand on Battousai in their fight in my mind. The power of his Zero Gatotsu makes him a formidable threat as well, but the rather easy-to-read pattern to his attacks, his lack of defense (ironic, considering all his lecture to Sanosuke), and the fact that he doesn't improve like several of the other main heroes leaves him trailing a bit by the end of the series.

#6 - Yukishiro Enishi - A highly skilled fighter with a wild fighting style that can throw most enemies off, and both conviction and power behind his blows. Enishi has incredible ability, but can't use it all against opponents who aren't Kenshin, which means he doesn't quite measure up against some folks.

#5 - Shishio Makoto - A true beast in terms of combat ability as well as appearance. Shishio's raw power and endurance are nearly unmatched, and his skill at countering techniques boosts him up even higher. In a straight one on one fight, there are few who can match him. Due to his time limit though, he's brought down by his inability to draw a fight. Anyone who he doesn't have the power to defeat will eventually outlast him.

#4 - Shinomori Aoshi - Even during the Kyoto arc, he gave Shin Kenshin a run for his money, and probably could've beaten Shishio. Once he completed his meditations, he almost certainly caught up to Kenshin. Like all the other top tier fighters, he possesses a single weakness; in Aoshi's case, it's his ability to take a hit, but his versatile fighting style and excellent defense compensate for that nicely.

#3 - Himura Kenshin - He's the hero of the series, it's only natural that he'd rank high. He may be outclassed by a couple others, but he's a true master in every sense of the word. Speed, power, skill, experience, all pushed to their limit. Kenshin's only real "weakness" is the fact that he's a lot better than his own body can handle.

#2 - Seta Soujirou - Unbelievable speed, impossible to read, and talent that matches him to some of the greatest master swordsmen, despite not having a day of formal training in his life. Cracking him may lead to a weakness, and Kenshin did defeat him, but I still feel that it was a "circumstancial" defeat (i.e., if they hadn't already fought once at Shingetsu, the circumstances wouldn't have played out to Kenshin's favor in the rematch).

#1 - Hiko Seijurou XIII - Is there really any doubt? He's the all powerful god of the RK world. No one even comes close to comparing. He's perfection incarnate.
_

Why Enishi is lower-ranked:
Enishi's Wattoujutsu style was a natural counter to Hiten-Mitsurugi Ryu, Ehishi also lacked plenty of killing intent, aaaaand I don't think he could pull of his NoI on anyone other than Kenshin.
Thus, Shishio could defeat Enishi.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 17, 2005)

No way in hell is Aoshi about Shishio.


----------



## vagnard (Dec 17, 2005)

My ranking is:

1-Hiko Seijuuro
2-Himura Kenshin with ougi/Makoto Shishio
3-Seta Soujiro
4-Yukishiro Enishi
5-Hajime Saito/Hitokiri Battousai
6-Shinomori Aoshi
7-Sagara Sannosuke
8-Myojin Yahiko teen
9-Himura Kenji


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 17, 2005)

I also have to assume Shishio would be able to handle Soujiro, since he's seen all his attacks.  Good list, vagnard.


----------



## Zoro - inactive (Dec 17, 2005)

BattousaiMS said:
			
		

> Enishi is stronger then Shishio. His Watōjutsu was at even with Hiten Mitsurugi. Compared to him Shishio was a joke who would have gotten killed by Kenshin if he had not used a Sakabato. Shioshio got always hit, if Kenshin was using a real katana he would have been long dead before ama kakyu no hira meki came along.


Yes there is a good reason Enishi is the last villain bedause he is the strongest bad guy in the series,he is so fast that Shishio will not even see being hit by the Wufu Judaeoshi(the only attack that surpassed Ama-kakeru-ryuu-nohiraimechi in the series.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 19, 2005)

Aoshi is better than Shishio at the end...no question about it...let us be honest though, if all 6 people in the Jinchuu arc had gotten to fight kenshin(kinda like how the ten swords were beating up on kenshin) id say Kenshin woulda lost...but since enishi foughta fully rested kenshin and his emotions are unstable...it is the onyl reason he lost.


----------



## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

Atcually the reason why I started this thread was b-cus Shisho was the strongest Overall villan and not Enishi, but he was still the last one thus braking the trend of saving the strongest for last.

More or less he was an Top class fighter none the less and I wanted to see what if other ppl shared my view.


----------



## Shishou (Dec 22, 2005)

Anyone who says Aoshi was stronger than Enishi or Shishio is a fanboy.  Same goes for Saitoh.

And Enishi could activate Nerves of Insanity with any bit of anger.  And he is very easily angered.  Remember the one guy who had the 4 god body gaurds with him, how he got scared when Enishi got mad at him and mentioned Nerves of Insanity and how no one can beat it?  Enishi was gonna use it right then and there juss for being annoyed.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 25, 2005)

Aoshi>>>Shishio, not fanboy...fact...after Kyoto arc, aoshi became stronger, and obviously since Kenshin was stronger than shishio at the end, then Aoshi (who caught up to Kenshin) would definitely beat him...


----------



## Shishou (Dec 25, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Aoshi>>>Shishio, not fanboy...fact...after Kyoto arc, aoshi became stronger, and obviously since Kenshin was stronger than shishio at the end, then Aoshi (who caught up to Kenshin) would definitely beat him...



Where is this proof?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 25, 2005)

Where is the proof that he cannot defeat Shishio?

I'm going by common sense...shishio said "Aoshi and Kenshin are tied in strength."

Obviously Shishio died, and afterwards Aoshi and Kenshin both became stronger(remaining tied in strength)

so basically, strongest Aoshi>>>strongest Shishio.

Now, in the kyoto arc...fully rested Aoshi would get beat by fully rested Shishio, but not at the end of RuroKen...


----------



## Dommy (Dec 25, 2005)

BattousaiMS said:
			
		

> Enishi is stronger then Shishio. His Watōjutsu was at even with Hiten Mitsurugi. Compared to him Shishio was a joke who would have gotten killed by Kenshin if he had not used a Sakabato. Shioshio got always hit, if Kenshin was using a real katana he would have been long dead before ama kakyu no hira meki came along.



And then I will go for Enishi.


----------



## Shishou (Dec 25, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Where is the proof that he cannot defeat Shishio?
> 
> I'm going by common sense...shishio said "Aoshi and Kenshin are tied in strength."
> 
> ...



You are going by what Shishio said before he fought?

He also underestimated Kenshin.  He whooped Kenshin at first even.  Followed by Saitoh, Sano, and Aoshi.  Then Kenshin got a second wind and ended up beating him.

Plus Kenshin and most likely Aoshi, did not get stronger after Shishio.  There was no point.  Kenshin learned his new techniques.  Aoshi had no one to beat.  Aoshi was only so strong at that point, because he was essentially evil, and had the goal of beating the Battousai.



Shishio may have held Aoshi and Kenshin on the same level.  Which Kenshin proved he was better.  But he held himself on a higher level.  Shishio is arrogant.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 25, 2005)

Aoshi did get better, his soul searching helped him become stronger. It's like how Kenshin got stronger by forgiving himself....but anywho, Shishio only beat them all because all of them had fought someone(kenshin two) before Shishio...Shishio was strong, damn strong, but not on Aoshi's level by the end.


----------



## Shishou (Dec 26, 2005)

Fanboyism.  Plain and simple.  Aoshi was never as great as Shishio.  EVER.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 26, 2005)

ecept at the end, where he was better...prove to me that Shishio was so much better? you are just a Shishio Fanboy if im an Aoshi fanboy...


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 26, 2005)

Who did Aoshi beat, the old man with the strings?


----------



## Shishou (Dec 26, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ecept at the end, where he was better...prove to me that Shishio was so much better? you are just a Shishio Fanboy if im an Aoshi fanboy...



Well lets see.  Shishio beat Aoshi.  Aoshi beat no one in the series cept an old man who used puppets.

Also these people who were Enishi's men, were not THAT great.  The puppet guy alone, was only useful to Enishi to make the fake body of Kaoru.  Also to spy with Fat Pink Guy...  Iwanbou?


There has never been any indication that Aoshi got stronger after his fight with Kenshin either.  If anything he got weaker.  Wasn't he meditating and repenting a whole bunch?  Because he was so emo after what he did?  Kenshin also didn't get stronger, because Kenshin never trains, and he didn't learn any new techniques.

I don't believe anyone even mentioned something like Aoshi has gotten stronger.  So I don't know where you even get started on Aoshi being stronger than Shishio or on Kenshin's level.



And no, I am not a Shishio fanboy.  I liked him and Aoshi on the same level.  They were cool, but nothing special to me.  Hiko and Enishi were my favorite chars.


----------



## blind51de (Dec 27, 2005)

It was stated that Aoshi had powered up after his meditations.

Ugghhh... I'm not going to find it, but it's there somewhere.


----------



## blind51de (Dec 27, 2005)

Okay, then. It was stated that:
Aoshi <= Kenshin during the Kyoto Arc.
And...
Volume 24, Chapter 217, during his fight with Gein, Gein makes a comment about Aoshi being a totally different person from what he was at Shishio's base and asks (to himself, internal dialogue), "So is that his true strength...?"

Therefore, Aoshi at the end of the series could wipe the floor with Shishio.


----------



## Id (Dec 27, 2005)

I agree that Aoishi is stronger at the end of the Enishi arc compared to the Shishio arc.

But Im not sure if Aoishi is a match for Shishio


----------



## Shishou (Dec 27, 2005)

Ok, so all you proved was Aoshi was better in Jinchuu than Shishio arc.


But he still couldn't match Shishio.  Because Kenshin didn't improve after that.  And Shishio and Kenshin were more or less on equal grounds.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 27, 2005)

they were only on equal grounds, AFTER Aoshi had a piece of him, and Soujiro.

To be honest, i kind of hated the ending of RK, it made me sad that they never showed Aoshi smile, and I just feel like Enishi got the raw deal in all of this, I mean ont he inside he was a good person, but at the end he was still in the same place as kenshin going through a living hell...i just believe to make it right, enishi should have ben the victor...


----------



## Shishou (Dec 29, 2005)

Enishi did change.

In Enishi's mind, what he saw, was his sister being murdered by Kenshin.  Kenshin who murdered her fiancee/husband.  Kenshin, who she was sent to murder or what not.



But when he didn't know, was that his sister actually fell in love with him, and gave her life to protect him.


----------

