# Rayleigh vs Akainu



## Monster (Aug 1, 2014)

*RAYLEIGH*


*VS*

*AKAINU*


Location: Marineford
Restrictions: None
Intel: Full knowledge for both

Scenario 1: Old Rayleigh vs Akainu
Scenario 2: Prime Rayleigh vs Akainu


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## Kings Disposition (Aug 1, 2014)

S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.


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## Shanks (Aug 1, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
> S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.



/thread

Next!


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## Kaneda30 (Aug 1, 2014)

S1 - Akainu Very High diff
S2 - Rayleigh Very High Diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
> S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.


Sounds fair to me.


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## Extravlad (Aug 1, 2014)

1. Akainu high diff.

2. Can go either way but I think Akainu is still winning with extreme diff.


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## Amol (Aug 1, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
> S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.



What he said and you should have used more manly image of Rayleigh.


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## Shanks (Aug 1, 2014)

Amol said:


> What he said and you should have used more manly image of Rayleigh.



Like this one? I've resized it perfectly for OP as well. 



Also, how about using this image for Akainu instead?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> 2. Can go either way but I think Akainu is still winning with extreme diff.


I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's Generation were, even when they were out of their Prime.


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## Shanks (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's were, even when they were out of their Prime.



I've being meaning to ask either yourself of one of the more logical Admiral fans around here. If you don't think Akainu can beat Prime Ray right now, how do you think he will get stronger to be solidify himself of one of Luffy's final oppornent and can go down in a legendary battle with 21 days extreme difficulties to EOS PK?


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## Amol (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's Generation were, even when they were out of their Prime.



My respect for Tea rised. 
Agree with every single point .


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## Amol (Aug 1, 2014)

Sabo said:


> I've being meaning to ask either yourself of one of the more logical Admiral fans around here. If you don't think Akainu can beat Prime Ray right now, how do you think he will get stronger to be solidify himself of one of Luffy's final oppornent and can go down in a legendary battle with 21 days extreme difficulties to EOS PK?



That is good question . Akainu will need same growth rate as Luffy.
Does that mean Akainu is not in his Prime in this age ?


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## Extravlad (Aug 1, 2014)

> I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's Generation were, even when they were out of their Prime.


You're overrating Rayleigh extremely hard, stalemating Kizaru who's using a sword doesn't mean he was stronger than Akainu in his prime.
You seriously think Akainu in 10 years wouldn't be able to hold his own against Kizaru for 5 minutes? Not to mention that Rayleigh had trouble fighting Borsalino.
Rayleigh is the most overrated from the old gen, he's as strong as Mihawk in my opinion, top Yonko lvl solid high toptier, but that's all.

Only Roger/WB and Garp are really stronger than anyone from the middle gen.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You're overrating Rayleigh extremely hard, stalemating Kizaru who's using a sword doesn't mean he was stronger than Akainu in his prime.
> You seriously think Akainu in 10 years wouldn't be able to hold his own against Kizaru for 5 minutes? Not to mention that Rayleigh had trouble fighting Borsalino.
> Rayleigh is the most overrated from the old gen, he's as strong as Mihawk in my opinion, top Yonko lvl solid high toptier, but that's all.
> 
> Only Roger/WB and Garp are really stronger than anyone from the middle gen.




This right here.



Issho D Tea said:


> I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's Generation were, even when they were out of their Prime.



Are we talking about the same Akainu? The one who was able to survive an island cracking punch from a bloodlusted Whitebeard and then got up moments later from having gotten punched and went on to overpower ace and killed Ace, a whitebeard commander, overpowered jimbei, a warlord, survived two clean haki hits from Marco and Vista and then went on to confront Crocodile, Marco, Vista and the rest of the Whitebeard commanders despite being in a bad state? What stopped him from continuing the war was another Yonkou for god's sakes...

You being a massive Akainu fan who  tends to wank the admirals a lot of times does not deter the argument that it shouldn't imply that he loses to Prime rayleigh and makes you contradicting against your usual opinion in favor of the admirals whenever they're mentioned have a lot more weighting in this case.

 As Extravlad said, it could go either way, which is the most likely outcome of this match-up. Kizaru was barely introduced, had barely a consistent amount of screen time and he wasn't going all out against Rayleigh. He simply used his sword and engaged in a sword clash against Rayleigh, never used his spammable Yasakani no magatama which would have yielded the same results on rayleigh as it had on Zephyr. I mean the guy could have just flew at a reasonable distance and kept on spamming them but he didn't, as plot begged to differ. Rayleigh can't jump high enough to target Kizaru and stop him from spamming... You can't infer much from their clash as it was just a brief skirmish without the two going all out.

But like Extravlad said, it could go EITHER WAY. Whoever wins, it's with High extreme difficulty.


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## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

Your sig is waaaaaaay too big m8


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> Your sig is waaaaaaay too big m8



I legitimately can't see my sig for some reason.


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## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> I legitimately can't see my sig for some reason.


Lengthways it takes up more than an entire page.

Widthways it stretches your comment box


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> Lengthways it takes up more than an entire page.
> 
> Widthways it stretches your comment box



... urh, I am basically a Mod bait at this point, particularly Nesha. 

Ah, I see. It must be because I am using the alternative skin.

Thanks for the heads up.


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## Orca (Aug 1, 2014)

@LM You think Kizaru vs Prime Rayleigh can go either way as well?


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## blueframe01 (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I am a massive Akainu fan, but come on. There is no way Akainu could be stronger than Prime Rayleigh. It makes no sense. Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru (who will give Akainu an extreme diff fight) even after two decades of drinking, gambling, and slacking off (though he was obviously going to lose after a tough fight). Oda went out of his way and back to show us what kind of monsters Roger's Generation were, even when they were out of their Prime.



Finally an admiral fanboy that speak so much sense


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> @LM You think Kizaru vs Prime Rayleigh can go either way as well?



I was mostly referring to Old rayleigh, specifically his skirmish with kizaru  to say that Kizaru wasn't going all out. My post was a response to Issho saying that Kizaru was stalemated by Rayleigh as means of undermining Kizaru by bringing relevant factors that limited Kizaru from going all out such as plot being one of the main reasons I used.

So your question is really... arbitrary. But it'd make myself seem arrogant to not answer your post. First, we've barely seen Kizaru go all out against a strong opponent, though he should more or less be around the Color 3's level of power, perhaps there is a certain disparity in strength among all of them as Akainu beat Aokiji, a fellow admiral, instead of equaling him in their fight. As for how Kizaru would fair up against Akainu? Based on feats and hype, I think it's reasonable to say Akainu > Kizaru, though the gap shouldn't matter to the point it'd seem I am saying that Akainu UTTERLY STOMPS HIM et cetera...


As for how Kizaru would fair up against prime rayleigh? I honestly believe it could go either way ... but this time I am inclined to say prime rayleigh with extreme high diff. To be honest, a conclusion could be presented in a better light if only we were exposed to Kizaru's full strength as well as prime Rayleigh's...


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

@Luffee what do you think on this match-up?  I am curious to know your view on this.


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## Orca (Aug 1, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> @Luffee what do you think on this match-up?  I am curious to know your view on this.



IMO Prime Rayleigh definitely beats Kizaru and against Akainu I'd give the edge to Rayleigh as well.

According to Garp the marines couldn't deal with two legends like WB and Rayleigh at the same time. This statement atleast suggests that Garp holds Prime Rayleigh in a higher regard to the admirals. Otherwise it'd be weird for Garp to make this statement knowing that he has three fighters in the marines equal to prime Rayleigh.

Also according to Kizaru himself, he couldn't capture Rayleigh even if he wanted to. So again this should at least suggest that if not old Rayleigh, prime Rayleigh is definitely held in a higher pedestal by even Kizaru himself.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> IMO Prime Rayleigh definitely beats Kizaru and against Akainu I'd give the edge to Rayleigh as well.
> 
> According to Garp the marines couldn't deal with two legends like WB and Rayleigh at the same time. This statement atleast suggests that Garp holds Prime Rayleigh in a higher regard to the admirals. Otherwise it'd be weird for Garp to make this statement knowing that he has three fighters in the marines equal to prime Rayleigh.
> 
> Also according to Kizaru himself, he couldn't capture Rayleigh even if he wanted to. So again this should at least suggest that if not old Rayleigh, prime Rayleigh is definitely held in a higher pedestal by even Kizaru himself.



To me, I think feats are important, but hype as well. I definitely believe Rayleigh was a monster back in his primes, but so are the Admirals looking at their current feats.  I do think that it's reasonable to say that amongst Admiral level strength, which is rare in the verse, you could say said person with such strength can defeat a color 3 admiral, though the difficulty at which they'd have can only be high extreme difficulty.

As for Kizaru against Rayleigh? I still hold to the belief it could go either way, unless we actually get any showings from both of them that would shift the odds of winning between one of them... but looking at how Prime rayleigh has been portrayed, despite having absolutely no feats at his disposal panel wise, it's really hard to present a case as to why he 'definitely' beats Kizaru, and likewise for Kizaru. At this point, it could be said that any of them win, but for me, like I said in my earlier post, I am sticking with Rayleigh with high extreme diff only.

As for Akainu? It could also go either way, but the notion that akainu beats prime rayleigh holds more weight than Kizaru beating him looking at how Akainu's got legitimate feats of going toe to toe against a Yonkou and doing significant damage to a yonkou added with the fact that he survived an Island splitting much and then going straight to fighting against two of Whitebeard's strongest commanders with no injury in spite of getting a direct hit by both Marco and vista's haki imbued attacks, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that it isn't 'unwise' to say Akainu beats prime rayleigh with high extreme difficulty. 

The thing with prime rayleigh is that people generally do an awful job at presenting their case for why he wins because of the distinct lack of feat from his part. It'd be better if he was banned and is portrayed in a flashback where we get a good grasp at his strength in his prime. 

Hmm, where was it said? Note that I don't doubt that he said that. I just don't seem to recall it.

And Aokiji himself would lose to Kizaru if we pit them on on one. Though I still believe Kizaru > Kuzan with high extreme diff. Wait where did aokiji say that?


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## Luke (Aug 1, 2014)

Scenario 1: Akainu wins with high difficulty .
Scenario 2: Rayleigh wins with high difficulty.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Edit: I am tired AF. I meant to say Aokiji.. can't read properly when sleepy zzzz


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## Patrick (Aug 1, 2014)

Scenario 1 looks to be fairly easy to me. Rayleigh could keep up with Kizaru, but has less stamina meaning Kizaru would outlast him. Akainu is most likely marginally stronger than Kizaru meaning that the result would be more or less the same. Akainu wins High Dif.

Scenario 2 is where it becomes tricky. Prime Rayleigh is speculation. The only things we know are that he is at least as strong as he is now and had more stamina in the past. I'm not giving him more feats since nothing implies that he had to be stronger than that to be the First Mate of the Pirate King. I even highly doubt it. 

This would already mean that he is the strongest First Mate ever and the strongest swordsman at the time. I don't see why Prime Rayleigh has to be stronger than Mihawk or equal to EoS Zoro.

Of course the old generation is hyped. Old generations are always treated as myths and legends. The only thing we have to go by is Whitebeard who was superior to the Admirals even while old and dying. Then we have Roger who was at least as strong and monstrous as him. We also know that not a single other person in the Old generation could match these two. Rayleigh couldn't either. 

Akainu takes this Extreme Difficulty.


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## Ghost (Aug 1, 2014)

1. Akainu high diff
2. Either way extreme diff


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## TheWiggian (Aug 1, 2014)

s1: Akainu extreme diff
s2: Rayleigh high diff


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## Dunno (Aug 1, 2014)

I see you guys are managing quite well without me. Good job everyone!


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## Ruse (Aug 1, 2014)

Sabo said:


> I've being meaning to ask either yourself of one of the more logical Admiral fans around here. If you don't think Akainu can beat Prime Ray right now, how do you think he will get stronger to be solidify himself of one of Luffy's final oppornent and can go down in a legendary battle with 21 days extreme difficulties to EOS PK?



Well there is the Bonney theory so if that's true he'll have plenty of room to grow, although correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Akainu 55 years old so he might not have peaked yet so its possible that he will get stronger.

Anyway when Luffy fights Akainu he'll be most likely weaker than the red dog going into the fight.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Man, I miss thatblackguy's brilliant posts.. What happened to him?


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## Luke (Aug 1, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Man, I miss thatblackguy's brilliant posts.. What happened to him?



If you think he'd be more "brilliant" if he thinks Akainu > Prime Rayleigh then I don't know how you've been gauging intelligence lately.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> If you think he'd be more "brilliant" if he thinks Akainu > Prime Rayleigh then I don't know how you've been gauging intelligence lately.




Oh you and your rampant delusions!

If you think a member can very easily utterly fail to grasp at the slight power differences between characters made to look like equals and implied statement saying that it could go either way, then you're most likely blind or born with a severe mental deficiency. 

And that's taken out of context. The original claim was it could go either way, but something just says Akainu wins with high extreme diff.


But hey, every claim made by a 17-year-old guy who calls himself master luke is to be taken with a grain of salt, after all 

but what do I know?


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 1, 2014)

1. Akainu high difficulty. 
2. Rayleigh high-extreme difficulty, unless current Akainu is significantly stronger than Fujitora/Kizaru/Aokiji.


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## Ruse (Aug 1, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> If you think he'd be more "brilliant" if he thinks Akainu > Prime Rayleigh then I don't know how you've been gauging intelligence lately.



This guy gets it, people think Prime Rayleigh is just a Rayleigh with better stamina but we also have to remember that he was out of practice when he fought Kizaru since he said he hadn't used his sword for a long time.


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## Arkash (Aug 1, 2014)

Scenario 1: Akainu high diff
Scenario 2: Rayleigh extremely high diff


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## Krippy (Aug 1, 2014)

S1: Akainu high diff
S2: Rayleigh high diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Are we talking about the same Akainu? The one who was able to survive an island cracking punch from a bloodlusted Whitebeard and then got up moments later from having gotten punched and went on to overpower ace and killed Ace, a whitebeard commander, overpowered jimbei, a warlord, survived two clean haki hits from Marco and Vista and then went on to confront Crocodile, Marco, Vista and the rest of the Whitebeard commanders despite being in a bad state? What stopped him from continuing the war was another Yonkou for god's sakes...
> 
> You being a massive Akainu fan who  tends to wank the admirals a lot of times does not deter the argument that it shouldn't imply that he loses to Prime rayleigh and makes you contradicting against your usual opinion in favor of the admirals whenever they're mentioned have a lot more weighting in this case.
> 
> ...


Wibbly hobbly herpa derp, good sir. 


Extravlad said:


> You're overrating Rayleigh extremely hard, stalemating Kizaru who's using a sword doesn't mean he was stronger than Akainu in his prime.
> You seriously think Akainu in 10 years wouldn't be able to hold his own against Kizaru for 5 minutes? Not to mention that Rayleigh had trouble fighting Borsalino.


Oh please, stop. The straws. They're choking. You're squeezing them too hard.

Rayleigh spent *twenty two years* in retirement, doing nothing but drinking, gambling, coating ships, and slacking off. Yet he still matched Kizaru blow for blow in a sword fight, the only thing Kizaru truly had the edge in was stamina, and even then, Rayleigh's stamina was good enough to swim the freaking Calm Belt. His Prime self would no doubt have been an absolute monster.


Extravlad said:


> Rayleigh is the most overrated from the old gen, *he's as strong as Mihawk in my opinion, top Yonko lvl solid high toptier, but that's all.*


Until Luffy and co surpass Roger, there are only three people I'd say that can beat Prime Rayleigh. Mihawk is not one of them. And never will be.


Sabo said:


> I've being meaning to ask either yourself of one of the more logical Admiral fans around here. If you don't think Akainu can beat Prime Ray right now, how do you think he will get stronger to be solidify himself of one of Luffy's final oppornent and can go down in a legendary battle with *21 days* extreme difficulties to EOS PK?


@ bold
...?
Anyway, I'm going to be blunt.
I honestly doubt Luffy is going to surpass Roger in terms of strength in the current storyline, he'll most likely do it in the epilogue. I personally peg Akainu around Prime Sengoku's level, which would be a completely fine level for Luffy to reach in the final war.


blueframe01 said:


> Finally an admiral fanboy that speak so much sense


I prefer the term, Reserved Admiral Wanker.


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## Canute87 (Aug 1, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
> S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.



No Issues here.


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## Suit (Aug 1, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> S1 - Akainu wins with atleast High-Diff.
> S2 - Rayleigh wins with atleast High-Diff.



I'm going to second this post.

Old Rayleigh is capable of a fight. Prime Rayleigh has the hype.


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## Lycka (Aug 1, 2014)

Raleigh in Prime easily takes it no more than high difficulty.


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## Lycka (Aug 1, 2014)

Old Garp is implied stronger than Akainu.

Prime Rayleigh should be stronger than Old Garp.

Whomp.


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## monkey d ace (Aug 1, 2014)

akainu high diff
rayleigh high/extreme diff


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## Extravlad (Aug 1, 2014)

> Prime Rayleigh should be stronger than Old Garp.


No he should not Rayleigh is not Zoro.



> Rayleigh spent twenty two years in retirement, doing nothing but drinking, gambling, coating ships, and slacking off. Yet he still matched Kizaru blow for blow in a sword fight,


That's a shitty feat, anyone who was a toptier swordsman in his prime could have done the same thing.
Drinking, and doing nothing is irrelevant it only affect his stamina and as you can see he's easily outmatched by Borsalino because of this.



> Rayleigh's stamina was good enough to swim the freaking Calm Belt.


Most overrated feat ever, Ace and Jinbe can fight each other for 5 days, it's unimpressive.



> His Prime self would no doubt have been an absolute monster.


Yea an absolute monster just like Shanks,Akainu,Mihawk or Kaido.
But he's no Garp/WB/Roger.



> Until Luffy and co surpass Roger, there are only three people I'd say that can beat Prime Rayleigh. Mihawk is not one of them. And never will be.


That's bullshit how can you believe that the 3 people who can beat Rayleigh are ALL from the old gen?
Why do you underestimate the middle gen so much?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Prime Rayleigh high-diffs Akainu.
'Old Rayleigh vs. Akainu' can go either way, with the slight advantage to Akainu.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> 'Old Rayleigh vs. Akainu' can go either way


You can not be serious.


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## Ruse (Aug 1, 2014)

Prime Rayleigh >= Shanks >= Akainu 

That's how I think Akainu compares to Rayleigh


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## Nox (Aug 1, 2014)

Prime Rayleigh > Akainu > Old Rayleigh

Scenario I: Akainu. Mid High
Scenario II: Rayleigh. Mid High


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> You can not be serious.



I'm always serious, my friend.


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## Extravlad (Aug 1, 2014)

> Scenario II: Rayleigh. Mid High


Rayleigh mid diffing Akainu.

God this section is worse than ever.


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## Luke (Aug 1, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Prime Rayleigh >= Shanks >= Akainu
> 
> That's how I think Akainu compares to Rayleigh



I agree with this.


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## tanman (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> You can not be serious.



Anything's possible bud.
It seems like you're always blown away by every one who has a slightly questionable opinion. One of these you're going to get used to NF, right?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I'm always serious, my friend.


Rayleigh was getting tired in his clash with Kizaru, who was showing no signs of fatigue, he was clearly going to lose that fight...yet Akainu vs Rayleigh is supposed to go either way. But then again, you think Kizaru isn't on Akainu's level, so why should I be surprised?


tanman said:


> Anything's possible bud.
> It seems like you're always blown away by every one who has a slightly questionable opinion. One of these you're going to get used to NF, right?


Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

tanman said:


> Anything's possible bud.
> It seems like you're always blown away by every one who has a slightly questionable opinion. One of these you're going to get used to NF, right?



Pretty much what Tanman said.


Extravlad said:


> Rayleigh mid diffing Akainu.
> 
> God this section is worse than ever.



Yeah.



Issho D Tea said:


> You can not be serious.




Like I said, trying to seemingly give off the allusion that your opinion holds more weighting than any other member's opinion while condescendingly believing any other opinion besides that of your own is wrong or 'ridiculous' and shouldn't be said is something I see you often doing, which gets annoying. Quit complaining, and it's not like i've seen you do much of a positive contribution to this section.


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## Ruse (Aug 1, 2014)

Lyrical-Messiah said:


> Man, I miss thatblackguy's brilliant posts.. What happened to him?



Nothing I just changed my name. 

Dat sarcasm though I can smell it...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Rayleigh was getting tired in his clash with Kizaru, who was showing no signs of fatigue, he was clearly going to lose that fight...yet Akainu vs Rayleigh is supposed to go either way. But then again, you think Kizaru isn't on Akainu's level, so why should I be surprised?



You can be on the same level as another person and still be inferior; that's how I view Kizaru. 
In a fight, he would give Akainu lots of difficulty, but he'd still lose the bout eventually. 

As for Akainu vs. Old Rayleigh, the former is more sluggish than Kizaru and hasn't shown swordplay. Ray's adaptation to fighting is similar to Shanks' style, where they don't waste moves and have Haki that's powerful enough to bypass Logia intangibility/Admiral-level BH. Hype indicates that, even in his old age, Rayleigh is closer to Akainu than you think. Roger's era is ridiculously powerful and shouldn't be underestimated.

The way I look at it: one wrong move can get either of them killed.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> You can be on the same level as another person and still be inferior; that's how I view Kizaru.
> In a fight, he would give Akainu lots of difficulty, but he'd still lose the bout eventually.


Kizaru clashed with three different First Mates (one of whom was a living legend) and literally received only one scratch, and held his ground against the Strongest Man in the World. Though the Fleet Admiral will always come out the victor, Akainu will beat Kizaru nothing less than extreme diff.


King Itachi said:


> As for Akainu vs. Old Rayleigh, the former is more sluggish than Kizaru and hasn't shown swordplay. Ray's adaptation to fighting is similar to Shanks' style, where they don't waste moves and have Haki that's powerful enough to bypass Logia intangibility/Admiral-level BH. Hype indicates that, even in his old age, Rayleigh is closer to Akainu than you think. Roger's era is ridiculously powerful and shouldn't be underestimated.
> 
> The way I look at it: one wrong move can get either of them killed.


I bet my left nut if it were a Yonko that Rayleigh was fighting you wouldn't be saying that.


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## tanman (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Kizaru clashed with three different First Mates (one of whom was a living legend) and literally received only one scratch, and held his ground against the Strongest Man in the World. Though the Fleet Admiral will always come out the victor, Akainu will beat Kizaru nothing less than extreme diff.



I doubt it.
I feel like when you put characters that close together, you assume a lot of the burden of proof.


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## King plasma (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea has a point. No fucking way is Akainu going to beat Kizaru with anything less than extreme difficulty.

Only reason tanman believes Kizaru is weak is because he thinks he's going to fight Sanji, which btw is slim to none chance of happening.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 1, 2014)

King plasma said:


> Issho D Tea has a point. No fucking way is Akainu going to beat Kizaru with anything less than extreme difficulty.



Well, I pretty much said the same thing as to how their fight would go. Kizaru only loses to Akainu with high extreme difficulty. Every admirals, referring to the C3, give themselves a high extreme diff fight in my opinion.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Kizaru clashed with three different First Mates (one of whom was a living legend) and literally received only one scratch, and held his ground against the Strongest Man in the World. Though the Fleet Admiral will always come out the victor, Akainu will beat Kizaru nothing less than extreme diff.



Kizaru clashed w/ individuals who are fully capable of giving him high-extreme difficulty and/or also have the ability to win. 
You're making it seem as if the guy is on another tier. 

Mind you, Rayleigh didn't receive a scratch in that bout with Kizaru.
What does that tell you?



> I bet my left nut if it were a Yonko that Rayleigh was fighting you wouldn't be saying that.



Depends on that Yonkou you're referring to...
If you are talking about Shanks, he should be fully capable of defeating Akainu with high-diff - seeing he's basically Prime Rayleigh (perhaps a tad weaker) - but his Haki has reached a level that Sakazuki can't afford to play around with. Bar mysteries like Dragon, Shanks' portrayal is arguably greater than all living characters. Old Rayleigh vs. Shanks, however, is a fight with similar fighting styles; the guy that has more stamina is going to win a match-up where both combatants are essentially the same, though.

Sakazuki can defeat other Yonkou with difficulty that ranges anywhere between high to extreme, but I see Shanks defeating the guy with high difficulty .


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## trance (Aug 1, 2014)

> Scenario 1: Old Rayleigh vs Akainu



Sakazuki with high difficulty. 



> Scenario 2: Prime Rayleigh vs Akainu



Rayleigh with very high difficulty.



> Sakazuki can defeat other Yonkou with difficulty that ranges anywhere between high to extreme, but I see Shanks defeating the guy with high difficulty .



Shanks vs. Sakazuki = Shanks high difficulty.

Sakazuki vs. another Yonko = Potentially as low as high difficulty.

So, does that mean Shanks can potentially mid diff another Yonko?


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## Ruse (Aug 1, 2014)

Shanks beating Akainu with less than extreme diff...yeah I'm not buying that. 

But hey we're entitled to our own opinions


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 2, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Shanks vs. Sakazuki = Shanks high difficulty.
> 
> Sakazuki vs. another Yonko = Potentially as low as high difficulty.
> 
> So, does that mean Shanks can potentially mid diff another Yonko?



Probably Big Mom, yes.
But I believe Shanks has an advantage over Logia.

Kaidou and Teach are high-extreme diff in Shanks' favor.


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## trance (Aug 2, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Probably Big Mom, yes.
> But I believe Shanks has an advantage over Logia.



So, Shanks can beat Big Mom, who is herself one of the Four Emperors, with around the same difficulty Luffy beat Chinjao with? 

Is it me or are you kinda overrating Shanks? Portrayal wise, he doesn't really have much to suggest he can beat Sakazuki without being pushed to his limit or "mid diff' Big Mom.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 2, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Kizaru clashed w/ individuals who are fully capable of giving him high-extreme difficulty and/or *also have the ability to win.*


So, let me get this straight. You think Marco has the ability to beat Kizaru, when he couldn't even stop Blackbeard from rising to power, when Blackbeard wasn't even Yonko level at that point, and when Marco had *two years* to do it? Wow. And lets see, what feats does Ben have that suggest he can beat an Admiral/Yonko...oh right, none.


King Itachi said:


> Mind you, Rayleigh didn't receive a scratch in that bout with Kizaru.
> What does that tell you?


Yes, Rayleigh didn't get a scratch (I love how you ignored that Rayleigh was the one who was getting fatigued and not Kizaru), because Kizaru had no reason to continue the fight once the SHs got warped away by Kuma. The Marines didn't have the resources to take on two Legends at once, Kizaru had to gear up for the war.


King Itachi said:


> Depends on that Yonkou you're referring to...
> If you are talking about Shanks, he should be fully capable of defeating Akainu with high-diff - seeing he's basically Prime Rayleigh (perhaps a tad weaker) - but his Haki has reached a level that Sakazuki can't afford to play around with.


Guess what feats that prove Shanks can beat Akainu high diff (especially when he tanked the most powerful attack shown yet without even losing consciousness)...zero. What evidence suggest that Shanks is equal to Prime Rayleigh...once again, nothing. You are basically pulling shit straight out your ass.

...and what was that about Shanks mid diffing another Yonko?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 2, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> So, Shanks can beat Big Mom, who is herself one of the Four Emperors, with around the same difficulty Luffy beat Chinjao with?
> 
> Is it me or are you kinda overrating Shanks? Portrayal wise, he doesn't really have much to suggest he can beat Sakazuki without being pushed to his limit or "mid diff' Big Mom.



Being an emperor doesn't necessarily mean they're equals, just like admirals aren't regarded in that way... In fact, Newgate was known as the strongest man at one time, and he can mid-diff admirals when he is healthy. 

I view Shanks, compared to emperors (current), in the same fashion...except he's weaker than Prime WB and stronger than sick, dying WB (aka MF).


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 2, 2014)

What has this argument culminated into?  I got confused because Issho was the culprit for my confusion, but he's right in saying that Kizaru would beat old rayleigh.

And to an extent, despite his constant wanking and horrible bizarre trolling, he's right.

As for Shanks against Akainu? definitely a high extreme diff fight. Could go either way.

As for Akainu against any of the other yonkous? High diff to extreme high diff. No way is he winning or losing with less than those specified difficulty levels.


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## Extravlad (Aug 2, 2014)

Shanks is not beating Akainu.
Akainu is at least on Mihawk's lvl so he's above Shanks.


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## trance (Aug 2, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Being an emperor doesn't necessarily mean they're equals



And who thinks that? 

Holding the same title concurrently =/= being equals.

What it does mean, however, is they are in the same general league of strength. Being able to "mid diff" someone in a full on battle, with conventional might against conventional might, _strongly_ suggests you're on a different level entirely, which Shanks' portrayal does *not* suggest.



> just like admirals aren't regarded in that way...



Again, on the same general level. 



> In fact, Newgate was known as the strongest man at one time, *and he can mid-diff admirals when he is healthy*.



Meh.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 2, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks is not beating Akainu.
> Akainu is at least on Mihawk's lvl so he's above Shanks.



Comme je le disais, il pourrait aller de toute fa?on. Je m'en tiens ? Akainu avec grande diff extr?me.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 2, 2014)

Starkiller, what's with these cats


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## trance (Aug 2, 2014)

New emotes. 

As well as this:


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 2, 2014)

Shanks mid diffing another Yonko.


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## Lycka (Aug 2, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks is not beating Akainu.
> Akainu is at least on Mihawk's lvl so he's above Shanks.



Opposite way around.


If Shanks could rival fucking Mihawk, there's absolutely no way Akainu of any incarnate could beat either of them in a pure 1 on 1 fight.


Whitbread implied Mihawk and Shanks were the golden children of the middle generation given he himself said there rivalry was absolutely legendary similar to Whitebeard and Roger


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## Wayne With The Ism (Aug 2, 2014)

Man, according to you guys the Marines are pretty fucking weak. Rayleigh who isn't even a captain can mid diff the strongest marine at the moment according to someone. There was Shanks, Kaidou, Rayleigh, Roger WB, Benn Beckman, Marco, and Big mom, etc. If first mates are high diffing the strongest marine then there is some serious low balling. If you say Garp, i say WB or Roger. If Prime Rayleigh beats current Akainu, then it has to be no less than extreme, and i'm not even a fan of the red dog. In this new era, Sakazuki is the strongest marine so i don't know how a first mate of the previous era even in his prime can beat Sakazuki mid/high diff, which is the majority of the people's opinions. Not to mention Sakazuki will be one of Luffy's EoS opponents so a first mate of the previous era is definitely not beating him any less than super extreme,
S1: Sakazuki high diff. 
S2. Sakazuki extreme.


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## tanman (Aug 2, 2014)

King plasma said:


> Only reason tanman believes Kizaru is weak is because he thinks he's going to fight Sanji, which btw is slim to none chance of happening.



I don't believe Kizaru is weak. If you can give very high difficulty or high difficulty to someone like Akainu, you're a few island crushing moves away from weak. I believe that when you claim characters are incredibly close in power you should have significant evidence to support that claim. Further, Akainu as fleet admiral and primary antagonist has *a lot* more going for him.

Future fights have nothing to do with it.  I'm just not at all convinced that the admirals are that close in power because, frankly, I don't see why Oda would do that. Oda hasn't done that with the Shichibukai, vice admirals, Yonkou, Supernovas, and basically any of the important groups we've been introduced to. I suspect admirals are no different, and I suspect the only reason we have believed otherwise for so long is because each of the admirals are so well liked and the power levels of top tiers is vague at best. Aokiji and Akainu as rivals are the exception, not the rule.

Thank you for following my opinions though. Kizaru will definitely get the beat down from Sanji. Talk to you in eight years, bud.


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## Magician (Aug 2, 2014)

Rayleigh never loses, even when he loses.


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## Luke (Aug 2, 2014)

Shanks is not mid diffing Big Mom


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## BashFace (Aug 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Shanks is not beating Akainu.
> Akainu is at least on Mihawk's lvl so he's above Shanks.



Shut up Pariston!


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## Canute87 (Aug 3, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Shanks is not mid diffing Big Mom



Not even in Bed


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## Rocktomato (Aug 3, 2014)

Big Mom vs Shanks could go either way. Big Mom also could've stopped the battle of Marineford.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

Let's be honest here. Big Mom is destined to weakest Yonkou status because she's...lactose intolerant. What did you think I was going to say?

Shanks is to Big Mom as Akainu is to Kizaru.


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## BashFace (Aug 3, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Not even in Bed



Shanks vs Big Mom

From behind(high tide)

5m away 

Fully erect blood lusted 

Shanks high-extreme diff?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Rayleigh never loses, even when he loses.





tanman said:


> Shanks is to Big Mom as Akainu is to Kizaru.


Meaning?


Master Luke said:


> Shanks is not mid diffing Big Mom


I don't think anyone alive today can beat an Admiral/Yonko anything less than high/extreme diff.


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## Luke (Aug 3, 2014)

I don't see any logic whatsoever in saying a Yonko can mid diff another Yonko. That's like saying Aokiji could mid diff Kizaru. 

The power gaps may be wider from Yonko to Yonko than they are Admiral to Admiral, but certainly not that much wider.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> I don't see any logic whatsoever in saying a Yonko can mid diff another Yonko. That's like saying Aokiji could mid diff Kizaru.
> 
> The power gaps may be wider from Yonko to Yonko than they are Admiral to Admiral, but certainly not that much wider.


I believe that matchups may also be a factor, some of the Admirals powers may work better/worse on a different Yonko, and vice versa. But all in all, these monsters are at the top of the food chain, and the winner is not coming out without heavy injuries.


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## Rob (Aug 3, 2014)

Sakazuki Mid-diffs old Ray. 

Sakazuki Extreme diffs Prime Ray.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Meaning?



Meaning he's stronger.


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> Future fights have nothing to do with it.  I'm just not at all convinced that the admirals are that close in power because, frankly, I don't see why Oda would do that. Oda hasn't done that with the Shichibukai, vice admirals, Yonkou, Supernovas, and basically any of the important groups we've been introduced to. I suspect admirals are no different, and I suspect the only reason we have believed otherwise for so long is because each of the admirals are so well liked and the power levels of top tiers is vague at best. Aokiji and Akainu as rivals are the exception, not the rule.



I think this is a case where you have to take the small stuff into consideration. For instance, a couple reasons the C3 are considered close to eachother is because

1.) They represent the red dog, yellow monkey, and blue pheasant, which were symbols for the north, south, and west I believe.

2.) They're all exactly the same height, same rank, and joined all around the same time with Kuzan joining a bit later.

3.) One hasn't outshined the other in the feats department.

There may be others, but those were what came to mind off the top of my head.


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## Ruse (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> Meaning he's stronger.



How much stronger though? The logia trio were potrayed to be pretty close in power.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

I wasn't just talking about the Color Trio.
Though, I do think there is a very clear hierarchy of Akainu > Aokiji > Kizaru.
To me, what's up for question is how close Aokiji and Kizaru are. I've never believed that it's any less than high difficulty. I just find it odd when people say that it can't be any less than extreme difficulty or that it would last for multiple days because that implies an almost uncanny closeness in power.


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## Kaiser (Aug 3, 2014)

S1 - Akainu wins with High-Diff.
S2 - Rayleigh wins with High-extreme Diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2014)

Typhon said:


> I think this is a case where you have to take the small stuff into consideration. For instance, a couple reasons the C3 are considered close to eachother is because
> 
> 1.) They represent the red dog, yellow monkey, and blue pheasant, which were symbols for the north, south, and west I believe.
> 
> ...


And they're all based on famous actors. Minor detail, but still.


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## barreltheif (Aug 3, 2014)

If you fight someone equally for ten days, you are equal. After Dorry and Broggy, Akainu and Aokiji are the two most dead equal characters in all of One Piece.


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## Magician (Aug 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> If you fight someone equally for ten days, you are equal. After Dorry and Broggy, Akainu and Aokiji are the two most dead equal characters in all of One Piece.



^This.

On another day Aokiji could've won, who knows?


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## trance (Aug 4, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> ^This.
> 
> On another day Aokiji could've won, who knows?





			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Jimbei: The battle raged for ten whole days, and the world waited on tenterhooks for the outcome. // *Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength*, one man ultimately emerged victorious.



Sakazuki was _slightly_ stronger than Kuzan.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> ^This.
> 
> On another day Aokiji could've won, who knows?



I suspect that's not what we're meant to think.

When two characters fight with everything they have and the mangaka gives you a result, while they may be exceedingly close in power, I believe we're meant to think that one is ultimately stronger than the other.


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## Magician (Aug 4, 2014)

tanman said:


> I suspect that's not what we're meant to think.
> 
> When two characters fight with everything they have and the mangaka gives you a result, while they may be exceedingly close in power, I believe we're meant to think that one is ultimately stronger than the other.



Yeah, Akainu is slightly stronger than Aokiji. I'm not disputing that.

Just saying that they are near equals probs the closest gap between two individuals in the manga besides Dorry and Brogy. Akainu's slightly stronger but he won't win every time. If they fought multiple times Aokiji would probs win like 49% of the time and Akainu 51% or something like that.

Under the right circumstances Aokiji could've very well won that fight. 

Like Ace vs Sabo as kids. They both fought multiple times and each one winning a good amount of times with Ace(I think), having slightly more wins.


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## Suit (Aug 4, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> And they're all based on famous actors. Minor detail, but still.



Kuzan is clearly based on Slash who was the guitarist for Guns N' Roses a long time ago.



tanman said:


> I suspect that's not what we're meant to think.
> 
> *When two characters fight with everything they have and the mangaka gives you a result, while they may be exceedingly close in power, I believe we're meant to think that one is ultimately stronger than the other.*



"If they fight for ten days and one wins, he is clearly the better man. But if Luffy and Zoro fight, and there is a winner within an hour of fighting, they are too close to decide who is ultimately stronger."

OL/OPBD, a question.... *What are you doing?!?!*


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## barreltheif (Aug 4, 2014)

tanman said:


> I suspect that's not what we're meant to think.
> 
> When two characters fight with everything they have and the mangaka gives you a result, while they may be exceedingly close in power, I believe we're meant to think that one is ultimately stronger than the other.




I definitely don't think so. Luffy wasn't stronger than Lucci. He definitely wasn't stronger than Croc or Enel. (If you want an example from another manga, in Kingdom, Shin isn't stronger than Hyou, even though Shin has beaten him like a thousand times.)

If a fight can go on for 10 days, or even 10 hours, then it could just as easily have gone the other way.

If you want textual evidence:
"This deathmatch went on for ten days, and became the talk of the world. 
*They were a perfect match for each other in terms of strength*, but in the end...there was a victor."


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## trance (Aug 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> If you want textual evidence:
> "This deathmatch went on for ten days, and became the talk of the world.
> *They were a perfect match for each other in terms of strength*, but in the end...there was a victor."



Funny. Because this translation says a bit differently.



			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Jimbei: The battle raged for ten whole days, and the world waited on tenterhooks for the outcome. // *Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength*, one man ultimately emerged victorious.


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## barreltheif (Aug 4, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Funny. Because this translation says a bit differently.




It would be helpful to get a really accurate translation. The other translations seem to support me.

"Their powers were quite evenly matched, but...it was settled...the victor was Akainu!"
"They were a perfect match for each other in terms of strength, but in the end...there was a victor."
"They were comparable in their strength, but [the fight] came to an end. Akainu won!"
Etc


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## trance (Aug 4, 2014)

cnet is pretty accurate.



> "*They were comparable in their strength*, but [the fight] came to an end. Akainu won!"



Comparable =/= equal. Of course they're on par with each other in the long run but one *has* to be stronger and it makes sense for Sakazuki to be that person, even if the difference is only miniscule.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 4, 2014)

Akainu.

Rayleigh was going to lose Kizaru. (he sweat lot)


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> "If they fight for ten days and one wins, he is clearly the better man. But if Luffy and Zoro fight, and there is a winner within an hour of fighting, they are too close to decide who is ultimately stronger."
> 
> OL/OPBD, a question.... *What are you doing?!?!*



Well, I certainly don't believe that.
Luffy > Zoro


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