# Gilgamesh vs Dark Sakura



## Azure Flame Fright (Mar 6, 2010)

CIS is off, Dark Sakura gets Saber, and Crippled Berserker.

They both have infinite mana.


----------



## Xelloss (Mar 6, 2010)

Darksakura already can be say to have infinite mana.... no PIS/CIS gilgamesh means he rapes.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Mar 7, 2010)

Fucking dirty mongrels get Gate of Babylowned so badly Sempai wouldn't even recognise them after the King of Heroes was done with them.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2010)

Enuma Elish wipes them all out.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Mar 7, 2010)

Mongrels don't deserve the weapon of the King of Heroes.


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

Cis off Gilgamesh is ridiculous.


----------



## Red (Mar 7, 2010)

Giligamesh gets beaten with difficulty. Saber IS the strongest servant and was stated to dominate him in melee combat, PIS/CIS means she gets in for close combat with Prana/Mana burst before he can use Ea and wrecks his shit. Crippled Berserker is fodder IMO and is only good as a minor distraction.


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

You might have an argument if Saber Alter's agility wasn't complete crap and Gil's armor couldn't stop her strikes.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Mar 7, 2010)

Excalibur can't break Gilgamesh's pimping golden armour. Basically what Lambda said.

Saber Alter sucks.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Mar 7, 2010)

Red said:


> Giligamesh gets beaten with difficulty



Gilgamesh wins with EASE. Having the firepower of 5+ servants and stated as being the strongest servant canonically.



> Saber IS the strongest servant and was stated to dominate him in melee combat, PIS/CIS means she gets in for close combat with Prana/Mana burst before he can use Ea and wrecks his shit



Saber is not even the second strongest, word of god said somewhere Berserker was the strongest non-Gil servant(He's Hercules, makes sense). Saber tries to get melee and then what? Gilgamesh pushes her back with swordspam while using NP combos with such speed that Saber gets overwhelmed due to his projection and spam(See Fate)? His weapons have various enchantments to push Saber back(Fate route shows this)

Gilgamesh can fire a low charge EA like he does in F/HA. Or you know since he has over 1,000 magical artifacts that were used by other heroes, villains and gods but stronger and the weakness for every hero/anti-everything that let's him beat 30% ARC who is as strong as 4+servants he pulls something absurd out of his Gate that they would'nt be able to do anything against.



> Crippled Berserker is fodder IMO and is only good as a minor distraction.



Crippled Berserker does'nt even know where he is or who he's fighting.



> Saber Alter sucks



The game disagrees with you. She has A++ mana ranking which makes her prana burst to increase attack and speed far better than any other Saber since Sakura has some 1,000,000 units of prana or something to supply. She can raise her stats quite high while spamming Excalibur repeatedly and she's weak? She's stronger than any Saber except Rin Saber/King Arthur Saber.


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

Pretty sure mana burst is already accounted for in Saber's stats, like Berserker's Mad Enhancement. It's why she can compete with the other Servants despite being a midget.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Mar 7, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The game disagrees with you. She has A++ mana ranking which makes her prana burst to increase attack and speed far better than any other Saber since Sakura has some 1,000,000 units of prana or something to supply. She can raise her stats quite high while spamming Excalibur repeatedly and she's weak? She's stronger than any Saber except Rin Saber/King Arthur Saber.



Saber Alter loses one rank in Magic Resistance and Instinct, loses Riding altogether, and has Charisma drop from B to E. She's completely shafted in terms of Servant skills, especially when you consider how many times Instinct A saved Saber's life in Fate and UBW.

Furthermore, Saber Alter has arguably the worst stats of the lot barring Shirou's Saber.

Shirou: BBCCCB
Rin: AABA++BA+
Kiritsugu: BAAA++AD

Alter: AA++AA++DC

As you can see, Saber Alter has _two_ shithouse stats in Agility and Luck, which is matched only by Shirou's Saber with shitty stats in Endurance and Agility. (I don't really count Noble Phantasm since Shirou's Saber counts Invisible Air and not Excalibur has Saber's Noble Phantasm).

But on the other hand, Shirou's Saber gets Avalon, which gives Saber regeneration, limited immortality, _and_ an EX rank Noble Phantasm which blocks pretty much everything, and still keeps Instinct A and Luck B to help with the dodging. Saber Alter has to make do with Endurance A to tank with, and tanking in Fate/Stay Night doesn't really work if Crane Wing Triple Strike can kill Saber anyway.

tl;dr, Saber Alter can't dodge shit and is just a walking turret. Normal Saber on the other hand, is a brilliant fighter with superhuman levels of ability to fight and dodge attacks and gets to keep the use of Avalon for the most part.


----------



## noobthemusical (Mar 7, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Gilgamesh wins with EASE. Having the firepower of 5+ servants and stated as being the strongest servant canonically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would have thought Rider (4th war) second strongest I mean look at his ability.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 7, 2010)

You know I have been reading the visual novels of fate and researching in some sites and aside from Saber being mach 14 and that is with the boost of the command spell what other feats are that put servants being Hypersonic?


----------



## Cypher0120 (Mar 7, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> You know I have been reading the visual novels of fate and researching in some sites and aside from Saber being mach 14 and that is with the boost of the command spell what other feats are that put servants being Hypersonic?



Powescaling. Even at a boost, if other Servants can still react easily enough to keep up or even be faster than Saber, they almost certainly all are hypersonic.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 7, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Powescaling. Even at a boost, if other Servants can still react easily enough to keep up or even be faster than Saber, they almost certainly all are hypersonic.



But that speed of mach 14 is using the command spell boost it isn't her normal max speed so it really doesn't count to make powerscale for the others, also to mention that the other feats she has in Fate/zero and the other novels don't giver that speed so that is why I am asking what other feats do the servants have to be hypersonic?


----------



## Xelloss (Mar 7, 2010)

Gilgamesh dodge Vulcan cannon machine fire, which its mach 3, without even trying or use any command spell casually and he is not exactly know for be fast.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 7, 2010)

Where did he dodge the vulcan cannons? because in the novel he dodges two missiles and he does it in his Vimana which doesn't tell how fast he is.




> As soon as it dodged all the attacks, the F15 forcibly performed an Immelmann Turn and aimed its nose towards Archer, the pylons under its wings sputtering the flames of rocket motors. Two Sparrow missiles attacked Archer's Vimana with vengeance.
> 
> Although ordinary weapons would be useless in a battle of Servants, the weapons that Berserker corroded were of a different caliber. Carrying the prana of hatred, every single shot of the twenty-six-pound explosives had an annihilating might.
> 
> ...



Also in the novel



> Simple ammunition is no threat to Servants, no matter how big its caliber is. This is especially so with Saber, whose physical abilities were so supreme. Not only can she easily dodge them, but she can even deflect the rocket back with her sword if she wanted to. However – no matter how extraordinary the Heroic Spirit’s abilities maybe, she is still helpless in front of the firing speed of 1200 rounds per second of the M61 automatic rifle that the General Electric company took pride in







> The plane part that Berserker robbed at the last minute was the section that was equipped with one Vulcan automatic cannon. The automatic cannon that dodged Lancer’s spear tip at the critical moment was still flowing with the inky black prana that it was previously filled with, and did not lose the properties of being the black knight’s Noble Phantasm.
> 
> “■〓〓〓〓■■■■■■〓〓〓〓!!”
> 
> ...



Saber can't dodge the bullets from a M16


----------



## Xelloss (Mar 7, 2010)

Just continue reading, they dont call them Vulcan on the novel I think they use the model which is V61 if I recall correctly, and those missiles travel at mach 5 by the way.


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

Not a M16, a M61. And a gun in the hand of Berserker performs far above its normal capabilities.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 7, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Just continue reading, they dont call them Vulcan on the novel I think they use the model which is V61 if I recall correctly, and those missiles travel at mach 5 by the way.



Mach 4 actually and he did it while he was in his Vimana.



lambda said:


> Not a M16, a M61. And a gun in the hand of Berserker performs far above its normal capabilities.



My bad m61 and



> Simple ammunition is no threat to Servants, no matter how big its caliber is. This is especially so with Saber, whose physical abilities were so supreme. Not only can she easily dodge them, but she can even deflect the rocket back with her sword if she wanted to. However – no matter how extraordinary the Heroic Spirit’s abilities maybe, she is still helpless in front of the firing speed of 1200 rounds per second of the M61 automatic rifle that the General Electric company took pride in. Moreover, *this weapon has been attached with the properties of a Noble Phantasm by Berserker’s hand. Getting hit by one round is enough to kill.
> *



The novel states that the only thing that Berserker did to the m61 was that one bullet will most likely kill a servant because normal bullets don't do nothing to them, but the speed of the gun was the same.


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

Where does it state that?


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 7, 2010)

lambda said:


> Where does it state that?





> Simple ammunition is no threat to Servants, no matter how big its caliber is. This is especially so with Saber, whose physical abilities were so supreme. Not only can she easily dodge them, but she can even deflect the rocket back with her sword if she wanted to. However ? no matter how extraordinary the Heroic Spirit?s abilities maybe, she is still helpless in front of the firing speed of 1200 rounds per second of the M61 automatic rifle that the General Electric company took pride in. Moreover, *this weapon has been attached with the properties of a Noble Phantasm by Berserker?s hand. Getting hit by one round is enough to kill.
> *



The red part shows how the speed of m61 is still the same they don't say nothing about Berserker increasing the firing speed and the part in black says about the power Berserker gives to the bullets.


----------



## Cypher0120 (Mar 7, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> But that speed of mach 14 is using the command spell boost it isn't her normal max speed so it really doesn't count to make powerscale for the others, also to mention that the other feats she has in Fate/zero and the other novels don't giver that speed so that is why I am asking what other feats do the servants have to be hypersonic?



Just letting you know, the interview also says that Archer`s arrows are also Mach 13.2, and he tried sniping Illya with it.

Which Berserker reacted quick enough to and prevented it from harming Illya. And he`s not even fast...for a Servant at least. Getting into Lancer and Rider and those arrows will still most likely be dodged easily.


----------



## Red (Mar 7, 2010)

lambda said:


> You might have an argument if Saber Alter's agility wasn't complete crap and *Gil's armor couldn't stop her strikes.*





skiboydoggy said:


> Excalibur can't break *Gilgamesh's pimping golden armour. *Basically what Lambda said.
> 
> Saber Alter sucks.


Did something change while I wasn't looking at canon or has Fate/Zero intorduced knew feats, because as of the last I checked Gil's armor was being stretched to the limits by Saber in her weakest state (No prana from her master, just finished using Excalibur on Rider)





And her prana burst speed isn't scrub tier at all. Without it she's ranked D but with her burst she's able to keep up with the Lancer class which are stated to be the fastest and most agile servant. In this specific case with D.Sakura as her Master she has limitless prana by virtue of the grail and limitless prana bursts as a direct result. If that's not enough (which it should be being infinite Mana and all) she has the option of changing her armor directly to prana and greatly elevating her speed.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Gilgamesh wins with EASE. Having the firepower of 5+ servants and stated as being the strongest servant canonically.
> 
> Saber is not even the second strongest, word of god said somewhere Berserker was the strongest non-Gil servant(He's Hercules, makes sense). Saber tries to get melee and then what? Gilgamesh pushes her back with swordspam while using NP combos with such speed that Saber gets overwhelmed due to his projection and spam(See Fate)? His weapons have various enchantments to push Saber back(Fate route shows this)
> 
> ...


I misquoted Nasu, he said strongest CLASS, not strongest SERVANT. But the point still stands, if Saber rushes him before he uses Gates of Babylon or EA then she has more than a chance to beat him. And she CAN do that, with speed equal to Lancer's and border line precognition with her instinct ability and her melee blows tearing through Gil's armor she's more than likely to blitz.

Having the strongest fire power and most NPs is nothing when you get beaten before you use it.


----------



## Xelloss (Mar 7, 2010)

Except that OP give Gil also unlimited prana which means he can also prana burst all he wants.


----------



## Red (Mar 7, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Except that OP give Gil also unlimited prana which means he can also prana burst all he wants.


Does Gil even know Prana burst?


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (Mar 7, 2010)

I don't think Gilgamesh has the Mana Burst skill.


----------



## Xelloss (Mar 7, 2010)

Prana burst its a skill of every single servant, its the same as overloading a NP to make it BP just noone its stupid enough to doit

Also lol at berserk been slow, he has A agility .


----------



## lambda (Mar 7, 2010)

Red said:


> Did something change while I wasn't looking at canon or has Fate/Zero intorduced knew feats, because as of the last I checked Gil's armor was being stretched to the limits by Saber in her weakest state (No prana from her master, just finished using Excalibur on Rider)


Is Gil supposed to stand there and get punked? His armor can block a few of her strikes and that's all he'll ever need. 


> And her prana burst speed isn't scrub tier at all. Without it she's ranked D but with her burst she's able to keep up with the Lancer class which are stated to be the fastest and most agile servant. In this specific case with D.Sakura as her Master she has limitless prana by virtue of the grail and limitless prana bursts as a direct result. If that's not enough (which it should be being infinite Mana and all) she has the option of changing her armor directly to prana and greatly elevating her speed.


There's no limitless prana burst, the boost from that skill is already included in her stats, it's why she's competitive at all. Alter's agility is crap and she already has Sakura as Master. And Saber is faster without her armor because she's lighter. It's a speed increase, sure, but certainly nothing decisive at their level.



Red said:


> I misquoted Nasu, he said strongest CLASS, not strongest SERVANT. But the point still stands, if Saber rushes him before he uses Gates of Babylon or EA then she has more than a chance to beat him. And she CAN do that, with speed equal to Lancer's and border line precognition with her instinct ability and her melee blows tearing through Gil's armor she's more than likely to blitz.
> 
> Having the strongest fire power and most NPs is nothing when you get beaten before you use it.


She's not blitzing Gil, she's not tearing through his armor. Hell, getting through GOB will already be a nightmare.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Mar 8, 2010)

Red said:


> Did something change while I wasn't looking at canon or has Fate/Zero intorduced knew feats, because as of the last I checked Gil's armor was being stretched to the limits by Saber in her weakest state (No prana from her master, just finished using Excalibur on Rider)



Excalibur>>>>Caliburn and he's not going to magically standstill and get punked like he did in the end of Fate. She has to get near which is the problem everyone from Lancer(Fate/Stay Night) to Rider(Medusa) to a Sane Hercules would face. This is why UBW is the natural enemy of GOB since it allows the user to get near Gilgamesh by cancelling out swordspam with the same. That's Why Shirou could get near enough to cut his hand off while he was using EA while most servants get this



> And her prana burst speed isn't scrub tier at all. Without it she's ranked D but with her burst she's able to keep up with the Lancer class which are stated to be the fastest and most agile servant



No, Lancer and Rider are faster. Saber despite fighting Rider on uneven Terrain could'nt blitz Rider who quite frankly sucks at melee and was trying to get distance for her summon. Again Lancer is the fastest in dash speed while Rider is the fastest overall(Proof from games and quote from Nasu).



> Rider vs. Lancer
> Nasu-san CHECK!
> The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum output, Lancer will win



Even in the anime  he overwhelms her and this is made clear with the whole ice sword+Harpe combo. Gilgamesh can switch weapons really fast and his GOB can keep away opponents. When you're stronger than any Servant even Sane Hercules due to the sheer amount of things you have to pull out of your ass yeah. He's fired a 1,000 or so at once if I recall.



> In this specific case with D.Sakura as her Master she has limitless prana by virtue of the grail and limitless prana bursts as a direct result. If that's not enough (which it should be being infinite Mana and all) she has the option of changing her armor directly to prana and greatly elevating her speed



Where did you get infinite? she has a limit just really high, and Saber is not even going to get near when Gil has GOB and can combo with his NPS which push back servants and force them to be occupied blocking it while he's busy using an NP with his free hands. GOB+Ice sword+Harpe or just add EA. Excalibur needs to charge up too and you do remember how that went last time right? Ea vs Excalibur= EA winning.



> I misquoted Nasu, he said strongest CLASS, not strongest SERVANT. But the point still stands, if Saber rushes him before he uses Gates of Babylon or EA then she has more than a chance to beat him. And she CAN do that, with speed equal to Lancer's and border line precognition with her instinct ability and her melee blows tearing through Gil's armor she's more than likely to blitz



Strongest servant>Strongest class. Gilgamesh is called the King of Heroes because he's the strongest servant period. Shirou calls him the strongest, F/HA does it and so does Nasu. Gil has beaten Saber in Fate/Zero unless that was an anime only quote where Rin goes "You lost?" during when Saber tells them about Gilgamesh in which case non-canon.



> Originally Posted by Nasu (Translated by arai) from Comptiq 9
> [..] And the "5 Servants + a" is simply a comparison in terms of "firepower". Like with the "corpses", where each won't have to bother fending off attacks from foot soldier level opponents, the one who'd have the lead is the one who has the more weapons. [...]



And one interesting weapon:

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Harpe - The Snake-Hunter Sickle
> What Perseus used to kill the Gorgon. Not that great a weapon, but possesses the ability of "refraction prolonging", a divine skill that cancels out special abilities from immortality and prevents recovery of wounds taken by Harpe. Probably would make a good anti-Dead Apostle weapon. (Healing by natural means is possible). Gilgamesh has the original in his vault)
> 
> ??? Scythe
> ...






Another one and a nice counter for Dragons like Gram

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Merodach - The Original Sin
> The basis of the swords Gram and Caliburn. Gilgamesh has this in his vault. Gram the greatest of enchanted swords rivaling the greatest of holy blades, and is even equipped with special dragon slaying attributes. The natural enemy of the king of knights








> Having the strongest fire power and most NPs is nothing when you get beaten before you use it.



Gilgamesh summoning weapons as shields, note Archer(Emiya) could manipulate NPs to form a cage around Rin so this is not hard to believe
this

this

this

He can keep Saber guessing due to his weapons all having weird abilities
this

Here he shows he can make NPs appear out of nowhere
this

this

Link removed

Link removed

Here's his weapon switching speed I was talking about:
Link removed

Link removed

Link removed

He does all this while toying with Saber and not even comboing using his free hands. I've given you speed and attack feats of GOB

Here for the heck of it Shirou+Caliburn boost to his speed and physical strength(Caliburn was used by King Arthur Saber which Rin Saber should be comparable). Again Gilgamesh not trying
Link removed

Saber would be lucky to get near with his swordspam, projection and Archer style of fighting. His weapons do the work for him this is why having the firepower of 5+ servants and Nasu saying each acts like a Soldier makes him the strongest servant. Nasu was really high when he made Gilgamesh this overpowered.



> Prana burst its a skill of every single servant, its the same as overloading a NP to make it BP just noone its stupid enough to doit



No prana burst is not done by every servant else Archer would not be using reinforcement, there is nothing to support this. BP=/= prana burst. One is overloading a weapon the other is more like bankai Ichigo's power. They would put it for every servant in their skill list if they could and not just Saber.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, the way I see this if Gilgamesh manages to use Ea it's over. Ea has a damage value of 4,000 where as Sakura was overwhelmed by Rin's 1,000 with the Jewel Sword, so unless Saber and Berserker could make up for the difference, I can see Gilgamesh flattening them with 1 swing.

Of course, whether or not he could get that one swing off, seems to still be up for debate.


----------



## Crimson King (Mar 8, 2010)

Gotta love Type Moon threads.


----------

