# [Official] Tobi's Identity Thread



## Mugivara (Jul 22, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is .



> *Saying that Tobi is Obito, doesn't have only one meaning;
> 
> Right... Obito is already dead but death actually means the separation of soul and body.
> 
> ...



 I don't know the rules here, so don't make fun of me


----------



## Yuna (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.
> 
> All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.
> 
> ...


Zabuza, the villain of the first arc of the series is of Kakashi's generation. In face, they were the exact same age.-


----------



## Blur (Jul 22, 2012)

Yuna said:
			
		

> Zabuza, the villain of the first arc of the series is of Kakashi's generation. In face, they were the exact same age.-


He wasnt a villain. He was a mercenary doing his job, and he was more of a hero, because he tried to overthrow the totalitarian reign of Yagura ( Tobi ).


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 22, 2012)

Just wanna ask something to all of you;

Why do you wanna see just one Tobi?

If there is an absolut reality in Naruto story, it's Kishi who obsessed with puppets. I mean, lets remember what we've seen so far in Naruto as villain:

1- *Sasori* was the first puppet user, he was able to turn human bodies to puppets, even his own body...

2- Next we have *Kakuzu*, he was able use another puppet method that he stole people's heart and used their soul as puppet...

3- *Deidara*, was using his clay techniques as puppet, all bugs and animals used to do what he wanted to!

4- *Nagato* was a puppet user as well: Pein was a magnificent puppet technique!

5- We can say that even Zetsu is a puppet user because he can control them..

6- *Kabuto*! has many puppets that we call Edo tensei!

Just accept that Akatsuki is a puppet club

And finally, Kish left us only one puppet user: I'm saying that he is Danzo in my theory but you don't have to aggree. On the other hand you should accept that Tobi is a puppet as well even if the user is not Danzo.

Now some proofs:

- Do you remember the first Tobi we've seen? He was crazy and was so funny until the time that Itachi died...

- Do you remember the long haired Tobi? He was taller than the current one...

- Come on! Jiraiya died only because he lost his left arm against Pein. But look at Tobi? His arms are like  in Terminator 2! He looses them but nothing happens!!!

It's fur sure that someone is using the final level puppet technique now. So again, even if you don't agree with Danzo theory, stop trying to convince eachother that Tobi is only one person and see that there are more then one boddy that is controlled by the real one

- Shishui
- Obito
- Hashirama
- Tobirama
- Madara
- Izuna
- Danzo

They all might be a puppet because they are connected to important things and one of them might be the real one...

Regards


----------



## Yuna (Jul 22, 2012)

Menshouha said:


> He wasnt a villain. He was a mercenary doing his job, and he was more of a hero, because he tried to overthrow the totalitarian reign of Yagura ( Tobi ).


I was using *ObitoUchiha111* definition of a villain since it counts Nagato and Danzou as villains.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Still, I haven't seen anyone provide an answer as to why Tobi's arms were so young when he fought Minato. Can't just be because they're Zetsu arms. Because you're telling me the Zetsu goo retained skin color and basic arm structure, but not the actual physical texture of the skin?! WTF?! I doubt Kishi made his arms young for lulz. -__- This can narrow it down to Obito and Shisui. The Shisui theory has been utterly destroyed by now, so... do the math. I am by no means saying that Tobi is 100% confirmed to be Obito, but it definitely is the most likely.



Yuna said:


> I was using *ObitoUchiha111* definition of a villain since it counts Nagato and Danzou as villains.


I don't really see Zabuza as a "main" villain. But, I can see where you're coming from with that point. I guess I have to re-think things. The other points I made still stand, though. And they are very strong ones.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 22, 2012)

The Danzo Sasuke fought couldn't be a clone. Why would Danzo implanted Shisui's eye and many other sharingan on him if he is just a clone? You would think the real Danzo (If there is actually another one) would implanted all the good stuffs on himself right. Plus clones don't receive in depth near death flashback scenes like that. Tobi is either Obito or Madara's younger brother.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> The Danzo Sasuke fought couldn't be a clone. Why would Danzo implanted Shisui's eye and many other sharingan on him if he is just a clone? You would think the real Danzo (If there is actually another one) would implanted all the good stuffs on himself right. Plus clones don't receive in depth near death flashback scenes like that. Tobi is either Obito or Madara's younger brother.


Not only that, but Tobi's "wrinkles" look nothing like what Danzo has. They are placed completely differently. Tobi and Danzo also have different facial structures. Eyeshape is completely different. Along with everything else. I don't see how one can believe this theory. And, Tobi had Danzo's dead body in his lab and when he was all alone, he said, "Fuck you, Danzo! You crushed Shisui's eye with your last breath."

So, apparently, Danzo's so hax that he has a magical mask that makes his face look completely different, he watched himself fight Sasuke, he crushed the eye he wanted, referred to himself as a different person in his head, and mocked his dead body. DAT DANZO.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 22, 2012)

Shit we know about Tobi's past (in order)

Knew Madara
Fought Hashirama
Knew the Kuubi
Gave Nagato Madara's eyes
Attacked Konoha


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Shit we know about Tobi's past (in order)
> 
> Knew Madara
> Attacked Konoha


Fixed.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2012)

Tobi's identity being unveiled is probably going to come up real soon. I just hope it turns out to be someone I didn't expect like a different version of Madara or Kagami, perhaps one of Minato's rogue teammates that just decided to be an asshole.

Lol @ Tazmo being like 1324239097514 posts too late splitting the threads up.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tobi's identity being unveiled is probably going to come up real soon. I just hope it turns out to be someone I didn't expect like a different version of Madara or Kagami, perhaps one of Minato's rogue teammates that just decided to be an asshole.
> 
> Lol @ Tazmo being like 1324239097514 posts too late splitting the threads up.


Why would you want it to still be Madara? At least Kagami would be a decent reveal...kind of...okay, not really, lol. But don't expect anything unexpected from Kishi. He's very obvious when it comes to stuff like this.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would you want it to still be Madara? At least Kagami would be a decent reveal...kind of...okay, not really, lol. But don't expect anything unexpected from Kishi. He's very obvious when it comes to stuff like this.


Since Madara, or a part of him (a clone or something) would make more sense in continuity than Obito. There'd be no inconsistency given how far reaching Tobi's influence is and how far _back_.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since Madara, or a part of him (a clone or something) would make more sense in continuity than Obito. There'd be no inconsistency given how far reaching Tobi's influence is and how far _back_.


Madara in any way wouldn't make sense. It's anti-climactic and totally impossible for a number of reasons. There are possible solutions for all the supposed timeline "issues" with the Obito theory.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 22, 2012)

I say it again, I see no reason for Kishimoto to tell us about this:


Canon Facts:
During Nidaimes reign, his action of deceiving the Uchiha and the Senju Supremacy has led to some people of the Uchiha Clan to rebel and follow Madara.
Per Tsunade we found out that Madara isn't just a person but an Ideal.
The Ideal part fits perfectly to the Rebels wanting to follow Madara.
Incidentally, they were shown to be standing in front of a Monument that had "Madara" written on it.
Link removed


Uchiha Rebels following Madara who is an Ideal while Tobi is going by the name of Madara in order to complete the plan of a man who is since long dead.Not to mention having a major reason to hate the Senju and their own Clan.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Madara in any way wouldn't make sense. It's anti-climactic and totally impossible for a number of reasons. There are possible solutions for all the supposed timeline "issues" with the Obito theory.


There are no solutions. Tobi was already manipulating the Fourth Mizukage while Obito was alive. Tobi assisted Madara in the creation of Nagato and Akatsuki before Obito was even born. Tobi, even after Madara was revealed, said he fought Hashirama to get some of his DNA to create the Zetsu creating flower.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 22, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> I say it again, I see no reason for Kishimoto to tell us about this:
> 
> 
> Canon Facts:
> ...



who fits all those?



and he happened to be missing just when kyuubi decided to attack. fugaku is the man behind the mask


----------



## MYJC (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would you want it to still be Madara? At least Kagami would be a decent reveal...kind of...okay, not really, lol. But don't expect anything unexpected from Kishi. He's very obvious when it comes to stuff like this.



Kagami would be the most anticlimactic reveal in manga history. The average reader probably doesn't know who he is. He appeared in like one panel of one chapter and didn't do or say anything interesting. I'll admit that Obito is possible, but there would be serious explaining to do, and I don't just mean the time line. 

Like this: This page seemed to compare them once again, reprising the ominous statement Itachi made after deflecting Kisame's idea that they didn't need to retreat.

*Why would he still claim to be Madara (with Hashirama's power) when Konan is about to die anyway?*


Or this: This page seemed to compare them once again, reprising the ominous statement Itachi made after deflecting Kisame's idea that they didn't need to retreat. 



> "This is something _I grew from living tissue I stole during our battle_".



Keep in mind that he's talking to Kabuto, who has already blackmailed him with Madara's coffin at this point. *Why would he lie to someone that he already knows is aware he isn't the original Madara?*


Or this: This page seemed to compare them once again, reprising the ominous statement Itachi made after deflecting Kisame's idea that they didn't need to retreat.



> "_I can't believe Nagato used his Rinne Tensei like that. It's supposed to be for me_."



We later find out that Madara was expecting Nagato to revive him with Edo Tensei. Plus there was Tobi's whole story he told Sasuke from Madara's POV. If he's Obito (or Kagami, for that matter) how does he know so much about Madara? And I don't even mean stuff from a history book, he's actually talking from Madara's perspective.  


My point is, even though we know he's not the original Madara, he seems to have his memories and genuinely consider himself to be Madara in some way. IMO it supports the "Zetsu Clone of Madara" theory. This is what probably happened:




> Madara survives VotE and escapes with Hashirama's DNA, and later uses it to create Zetsu (who is confirmed to be a clone of the 1st) and eventually comes up with the Moon's Eye Plan. Later on, when he's old and near death, Madara unlocks the Rinnegan. Unfortunately he's too old and weak to use it effectively and knows he'll die before he can finish the plan.
> 
> So he creates a Zetsu Clone of himself and uses Zetsu to transfer his memories to the clone. He then has his clone find a suitable person (an Uzumaki with a lot of chakra) to receive Madara's Rinnegan after he dies and eventually use it to revive him. They agree to use Nagato. The plan is for his clone and Nagato (once he grows up) to collect the tailed beasts (recruiting other ninja as necessary) and implant them into Gedo Mazo. Once they've collected them, Nagato would revive Madara with Rinne Tensei, and then they'd carry out the Moon's Eye Plan.
> 
> Madara dies, and Tobi gives Nagato his eyes as planned. Tobi, after failing to capture the nine tails himself, spurns Yahiko to create Akatsuki. After Yahiko dies, Nagato takes over and Tobi manipulates Nagato (from behind the scenes) to have Akatsuki start hunting tailed beasts. After Nagato dies fighting Naruto, Tobi says "screw it" and decides not to bother reviving Madara and decides to take over the world himself.



That pretty much explains everything, IMO. As far as Tobi's powers, he probably just found Obito's eye after he died. Finding such an awesome Sharingan probably gave him the confidence to try taking the Kyuubi himself a year later, though it ended up failing.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 22, 2012)

Well ever since Zetsu we know that we shouldn't trust any death and we never saw him truly killed by Itachi but merely his corpse.

I can definitely see it.
It certainly is strange that Fugaku is missing, oddly Kagami as well.
Not saying Kagami = Tobi though Fugaku and the Clan did something on that Night.
It's hardly a coincidence that Fugaku and Mikoto as well as Kagami being absent without a reason given.
Also noting that someone must have given Tobi the info about Narutos birth which going by Manga canon was most likely Danzo as we know he and Tobi met during a "Uchiha Incident".


Though, I don't see the connection to Orochimaru.
Madara/Tobi had Shodais DNA.I find it likely Oro got it from Tobi thus beginning the experiment on Yamato and the other kids with Shodais DNA.

How old is Yamato?30 something?
Don't see Fugaku in that as he was pretty much a kid himself.

I still think Tobi isn't a sole Person.

Madara - Uchiha Rebels - Kagami (as example) - Current Tobi (???).
More a title passed on.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 22, 2012)

i think Tobi = Kagami... father of Obito

Kakashi had a father-son thing going on right? well.......... 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There are no solutions. Tobi was already manipulating the Fourth Mizukage while Obito was alive. Tobi assisted Madara in the creation of Nagato and Akatsuki before Obito was even born. Tobi, even after Madara was revealed, said he fought Hashirama to get some of his DNA to create the Zetsu creating flower.



lol this is what i have been saying 

if people thought there were solutions, we wouldnt call them plotholes


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

I believe Tobi is a clone of Madara himself, with all the memory that Madara himself had. His 'son', for lack of a better word.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> I say it again, I see no reason for Kishimoto to tell us about this:
> 
> 
> Canon Facts:
> ...


What exactly is your point?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There are no solutions. Tobi was already manipulating the Fourth Mizukage while Obito was alive. Tobi assisted Madara in the creation of Nagato and Akatsuki before Obito was even born. Tobi, even after Madara was revealed, said he fought Hashirama to get some of his DNA to create the Zetsu creating flower.


When Obito was alive.. According to the Tobito theory he never died... be more specific... And it could have been Madara who created Akatsuki about the Mizukage controlling, it was likely it was Madara at first but then he switched out with Tobi(Obito).


T-Bag said:


> who fits all those?
> 
> 
> 
> and he happened to be missing just when kyuubi decided to attack. fugaku is the man behind the mask


It isn't Fugaku. Fugaku's hair was completely different than Tobi's during the massacre. Fugaku wouldn't be old enough. Not to mention, ALL the Uchiha were missing during Kurama's attack. Also, he was killed by Itachi. ITACHI. Motherfucking Solo King Itachi. I highly doubt that Itachi would try to kill someone and not finish the job. He also would've known if Tobi was Fugaku. And if Tobi actually IS Fugaku, why isn't Sasuke there to see the unmasking? It makes no sense...



MYJC said:


> Kagami would be the most anticlimactic reveal in manga history. The average reader probably doesn't know who he is. He appeared in like one panel of one chapter and didn't do or say anything interesting. I'll admit that Obito is possible, but there would be serious explaining to do, and I don't just mean the time line.
> 
> Like this: the gash across his abdomen
> 
> ...


Sounds very plausible. Though it's not likely. I also never said that Kagami is likely. The dude looked badass and i'd like to find out more about his character but NOT by him being Tobi. There is next to nothing to suggest that he is Tobi. And for those who say it has no plotholes, they're wrong. 



Scarlet Plague said:


> Well ever since Zetsu we know that we shouldn't trust any death and we never saw him truly killed by Itachi but merely his corpse.
> 
> I can definitely see it.
> It certainly is strange that Fugaku is missing, oddly Kagami as well.
> ...


That's ridiculous. If there's more than one Tobi then why is only ONE of them getting unmasked. Not to mention that it would be stupid, make no sense, would ruin his status as final villain and completely ruin the uniqueness of his Space-Time Ninjutsu.



jacamo said:


> i think Tobi = Kagami... father of Obito
> 
> Kakashi had a father-son thing going on right? well..........
> 
> ...


You do realize there is a plothole within the Kagami theory as well, right? And just so you know, there ARE solutions for the supposed timeline inconsistencies within the Obito theory. people just don't want to accept them, or rather, not many people know about them yet.

I actually do kind of like the Kagami theory. It would be interesting, I guess. But I prefer Obito. t would be much more epic and satisfying imo.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I believe Tobi is a clone of Madara himself, with all the memory that Madara himself had. His 'son', for lack of a better word.


...............You know what? From here on out I'm just going to ignore all these Madara wankers. they'l be proven wrong eventually, it's just a matter of time.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 22, 2012)

Personally, I think it's very possible for Tobi to be Obito or Shisui

Reasons for Tobi to be Obito.
1. The name pun obviously.
2. Similar hairstyle
3. Obito wanted revenge for Kakashi failing to protect Rin.
4. Best candidate to make a Kakashi Year.

Reasons for Tobi to be Shisui.

1. Tobi and Shisui shared the similar hairstyle.
2. Tobi wears a mask and calls himself "no one". Shisui wore a mask in ANBU and his identity becomes "no one".
3. Shisui attempted to put his clan under a genjutsu in order to stop their treason which would lead to civil war. Tobi's plan is to put the entire world under a genjutsu so there will be no more wars.
4. Tobi knows Danzo possessed Shuisui's eye and visibly upset when Danzo destroyed it. (Danzo stole Shisui's sharingan in the past)
5. Shusui was known for his "Shisui of the Body Flicker", Tobi has his Space and Time Jutsu. They are both known for their extremely fast movements. 
6. After Shisui death, his corpse has apparently disappeared, as Kabuto cannot locate it.

Of course, timeline doesn't really add up for both candidates, and both of them were far to young to have winkles by the time of their death. But I don't see any other candidates other than these two knew Kakashi and Gai on a personal level.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 22, 2012)

What if both of them are Tobi?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When Obito was alive.. According to the Tobito theory he never died... be more specific... And it could have been Madara who created Akatsuki about the Mizukage controlling, it was likely it was Madara at first but then he switched out with Tobi(Obito).


As in _when he was training under Minato_. During that time, Tobi was already manipulating Yagura. Madara was already dead then since he died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan. And again, you still don't address the entire timeline issues of Tobi giving Nagato the Rinnegan, working with Madara, and getting Hashirama's DNA in a separate battle than the one with Madara. 

Obito is dead. He's long gone.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Tobi and Shisui shared the similar hairstyle.


wut.

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]




> and both of them were far to young to have winkles by the time of their death.


The wrinkles could be scars from the boulder.



Mugivara said:


> What if both of them are Tobi?


No. There's only one Tobi.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> wut.
> 
> [sp][/sp]
> 
> ...



Close enough lol


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> As in _when he was training under Minato_. During that time, Tobi was already manipulating Yagura. Madara was already dead then since he died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan.


And how exactly do we know when Madara awakened the Rinnegan?



> And again, you still don't address the entire timeline issues of Tobi giving Nagato the Rinnegan,


he didn't. Madara did.



> working with Madara,


Yeah, he was probably trained by him for 2-3 years. I don't see the problem here.



> and getting Hashirama's DNA in a separate battle than the one with Madara.


U mad, bro? Tobi never fought Hashirama. -___-



> Obito is dead. He's long gone.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And how exactly do we know when Madara awakened the Rinnegan?


Since it was shortly before he died. From the state he was in Edo Tensei, he was still in his physical prime. No gray hair, no wrinkles, nothing. Madara died young, probably shortly after the VOTE, and he just awoke his Rinnegan then.


> he didn't. Madara did.


Tobi is the one who gave him it or gave him the ability to use it. Madara was already dead then.


> Yeah, he was probably trained by him for 2-3 years. I don't see the problem here.


God, Obito never, ever worked with Madara. Why would Madara chose OBITO of all people, a Uchiha failure whose body was completely and utterly unusable _due to half of it being crushed and the rest of it also being crushed?_


> U mad, bro? Tobi never fought Hashirama. -___-


Then why didn't Kabuto dispute that claim? He had the real Madara, why didn't he say something, especially given how arrogant and snarky he is.


>


Why do you want the most unlikely, and the biggest slap in the face character like Obito to become Tobi? Do you even recognize what is good writing and what isn't?


----------



## MYJC (Jul 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since it was shortly before he died. From the state he was in Edo Tensei, he was still in his physical prime. No gray hair, no wrinkles, nothing. Madara died young, probably shortly after the VOTE, and he just awoke his Rinnegan then.



Actually, this is probably inaccurate. 

Remember, Madara KNEW Nagato by name, and when he was first revived he thought Nagato had revived him with Rinne Tensei. Nagato was born decades after VoTE. Had Madara died soon after VoTE there's no way he would have known who Nagato was. 

Also, Kabuto said Madara was a "special" edo that was "beyond his prime". So even though normal Edos are revived in the state they died, that doesn't necessarily apply to Madara. He probably WAS old when he actually died.

Granted, it's kind of implied that Madara died when Nagato was a child, so he probably still didn't live long enough to have met Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Actually, this is probably inaccurate.
> 
> Remember, Madara KNEW Nagato by name, and when he was first revived he thought Nagato had revived him with Rinne Tensei. Nagato was born decades after VoTE. Had Madara died soon after VoTE there's no way he would have known who Nagato was.
> 
> ...




then zetsu could have been created to find and create a replacement for Madara.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> God, Obito never, ever worked with Madara. Why would Madara chose OBITO of all people, a Uchiha failure whose body was completely and utterly unusable _due to half of it being crushed and the rest of it also being crushed?_



and this is where you lost all credibility. Shame, you really had me convinced you were looking at this objectively.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

son_michael said:


> and this is where you lost all credibility. Shame, you really had me convinced you were looking at this objectively.


I'm sorry, there should be far better candidates than Obito. Especially with the damage Obito's body sustained, on top of donating one of his eyes to Kakashi. For Tobi, shouldn't someone near or at Madara's build have been chosen? Close to his power, with the ability to control Kurama? Obito, even if he had a year of training couldn't have become strong enough to face Minato of all people in battle, break the seal on Kushina, and control the Fox.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since it was shortly before he died. From the state he was in Edo Tensei, he was still in his physical prime. No gray hair, no wrinkles, nothing. Madara died young, probably shortly after the VOTE, and he just awoke his Rinnegan then.


What MYJC said, except for the very last part.



> Tobi is the one who gave him it or gave him the ability to use it. Madara was already dead then.


Again, what proof do you have of this?



> God, Obito never, ever worked with Madara. Why would Madara chose OBITO of all people, a Uchiha failure whose body was completely and utterly unusable _due to half of it being crushed and the rest of it also being crushed?_


because he had an ultra haxxed MS and Madara probably saw the opportunity to mindfuck him and make him join his side.



> Then why didn't Kabuto dispute that claim? He had the real Madara, why didn't he say something, especially given how arrogant and snarky he is.


Do you really think Kishi was going to spoil the twist by saying, "Oh yeah, Madara got his DNA in their fight!" -__- Tobi's basically just living the lie and probably just being a smartass to Kabuto.



> Why do you want the most unlikely, and the biggest slap in the face character like Obito to become Tobi? Do you even recognize what is good writing and what isn't?


This is where I get a little angry. Your argument here is completely ironic and completely crumbles.

Okay, Obito was an EXACT FUCKING PARALLEL to Naruto, the main character(the goggles, the hairstyle, the color scheme except reversed), Thus, an evil Obito would be the exact opposite of Naruto and make a great final villain. Also, he fits perfectly with Kishi's villain theme. Only Obito makes sense. No one else would be good writing. He's the ONLY Tobi candidate that has appeared in more than two panels. The ONLY one who has a face we will RECOGNIZE.

Tobi being Obito is perfect writing, considering you've read my blog on this, you'd think you would realize this. It's simple. People like you don't respond to what they can't come up with an answer for. You are completely ignoring what I wrote and still continue to call it BAD WRITING?!

Aren't you the same guy who said Tobi was a Madara clone or a new character? If anyone can't comprehend good writing, it's you. 

You are being a complete hypocrite. You are also ignoring the themes Kishi has put into his manga. 
I suggest you don't reply back to this specific part of the argument. You know I've crushed you here. Other people can tell you how good writing Tobi being Obito is as well. I seriously don't know what manga you're reading.

If you don't like the theory, fine. But don't ignore what I said and call the theory bad writing, when obviously it's not.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Again, what proof do you have of this?


Due to the condition of his body as an Edo Tensei.


> because he had an ultra haxxed MS and Madara probably saw the opportunity to mindfuck him and make him join his side.


Shame that eye was probably destroyed when the rest of the cavern collapsed. And how do you know that Obito's other eye didn't have a Tsukuyomi in it? How would Madara possibly know that Obito would have Kamui?


> Do you really think Kishi was going to spoil the twist by saying, "Oh yeah, Madara got his DNA in their fight!" -__- Tobi's basically just living the lie and probably just being a smartass to Kabuto.


Considering Kabuto GREETED Tobi saying 'Oh hello Tobi, or is it Madara now'? Yes, it'd be in character for Kabuto to say that.


> This is where I get a little angry. Your argument here is completely ironic and completely crumbles.


Except it isn't.


> Okay, Obito was an EXACT FUCKING PARALLEL to Naruto, the main character(the goggles, the hairstyle, the color scheme except reversed), Thus, an evil Obito would be the exact opposite of Naruto and make a great final villain. Also, he fits perfectly with Kishi's villain theme. Only Obito makes sense. No one else would be good writing. He's the ONLY Tobi candidate that has appeared in more than two panels. The ONLY one who has a face we will RECOGNIZE.


No, he isn't. Obito a parallel to Naruto? Naruto and Obito have similar traits, but also are extremely different. And turning the only solidly good Uchiha into a villain, thus making all Uchiha villains is good writing? It'd be like making a Muslim superhero evil. 

Obito doesn't make sense. Hell, most of the Japanese fanbase probably doesn't even remember him, given he's gotten ZERO screentime, name drops, or even mentions since Kakashi Gaiden-which was made to show how Kakashi got his Sharingan. Not to show a up and coming villain. 

Kagami, a Hokage Candidate from Danzo's time wouldn't be a good choice? 


> Tobi being Obito is perfect writing, considering you've read my blog on this, you'd think you would realize this. It's simple. People like you don't respond to what they can't come up with an answer for. You are completely ignoring what I wrote and still continue to call it BAD WRITING?!


It is bad writing. It makes no sense in continuity. It makes no sense from the characterization of Tobi OR Obito. It makes no sense at all.


> Aren't you the same guy who said Tobi was a Madara clone or a new character? If anyone can't comprehend good writing, it's you.


Its bad writing making Obito-a person who lived by the Will of Fire a villain. You also conveniently ignore all inconsistencies and plot holes, ignore that Kisame recognized Tobi when he removed his mask, and ignore that when Tobi came out and controlled Yagura, they had the exact same face.
You are being a complete hypocrite. You are also ignoring the themes Kishi has put into his manga. 


> I suggest you don't reply back to this specific part of the argument. You know I've crushed you here. Other people can tell you how good writing Tobi being Obito is as well. I seriously don't know what manga you're reading.
> 
> If you don't like the theory, fine. But don't ignore what I said and call the theory bad writing, when obviously it's not.


I suggest you get out of the 'Tobito mindeset' and truly examine the manga. Especially since the manga is written for teenage boys...you honestly expect the current generation of readers in Japan would recognize Obito? Would even know who he is?


----------



## grimace30 (Jul 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I believe Tobi is a clone of Madara himself, with all the memory that Madara himself had. His 'son', for lack of a better word.



++ Though I'd say he is more like a Horcrux (from Harry Potter). That's what the new Orichimaru is... a portion of Orichimaru that was stored away in Anko. Tobi is possibly a similar 'piece' of Madara, while Edo Madara is the original Madara soul in an Edo body. 

That said, I wonder if Tobi-Madara has deviated from the reason he was originally created. Does Edo Madara even know about Tobi's Moon's Eye plan? Why would Madara want to be revived in a world that's controlled by Tobi's genjutsu?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2012)

grimace30 said:


> ++ Though I'd say he is more like a Horcrux (from Harry Potter). That's what the new Orichimaru is... a portion of Orichimaru that was stored away in Anko. Tobi is possibly a similar 'piece' of Madara, while Edo Madara is the original Madara soul in an Edo body.
> 
> That said, I wonder if Tobi-Madara has deviated from the reason he was originally created. Does Edo Madara even know about Tobi's Moon's Eye plan? Why would Madara want to be revived in a world that's controlled by Tobi's genjutsu?


Madara was in on the plan. He even said 'Its time for the Moon Eye Plan to become complete'.

And the initial damage took by Obito is even worse, there is absolutely no way he could have survived. His whole right side crushed, both legs crushed, the only thing keeping him momentarily alive was the pressure. If Zetsu or Madara moved his body? *Instant death.*

And the body didn't 'disappear'. It was further crushed by the collapsing cave.

In other words, Obito's body was rendered completely unusable and he had a mortal wound which if he was moved by Zetsu or Madara would have caused instant death.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 22, 2012)

there you go again changing the facts to your liking ObitoUchiha111

manga canon says Tobi fought Hashirama... but you say 

manga canon says Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan... but you say 





and there are no Kagami plotholes either


----------



## MYJC (Jul 22, 2012)

grimace30 said:


> ++ Though I'd say he is more like a Horcrux (from Harry Potter). That's what the new Orichimaru is... a portion of Orichimaru that was stored away in Anko. Tobi is possibly a similar 'piece' of Madara, while Edo Madara is the original Madara soul in an Edo body.
> 
> That said, I wonder if Tobi-Madara has deviated from the reason he was originally created. Does Edo Madara even know about Tobi's Moon's Eye plan? Why would Madara want to be revived in a world that's controlled by Tobi's genjutsu?



It's pretty clear he knows. Check the following pages - in fact I think a LOT of people need to reread the dialogue, it makes several things very clear that people still argue about:





> Madara: This is *HIS* doing...he definitely has something in mind...but what?? Things don't seem to be going _according to plan_ very well. Who is the controller of this Impure World Resurrection jutsu?
> 
> Kabuto: I am Kabuto, *HIS* assistant







> Madara: There's no point in this world changing any further. Mankind will be better served sleeping peacefully in the infinite Tsukoyomi.







> Madara (to Kabuto): Do you know _our_ plan as well?
> 
> Kabuto: Not in detail...but I am on your side..._though I am unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned_.







> Madara: It appears you haven't captured the Kyuubi yet.




The point is, Madara knows WAY too much about what's currently going on to have died THAT long ago, or to not be in on it. In fact it kind of implies that the Moon's Eye Plan might've been his idea. It sounds like either:

A. Madara created the Moon's Eye Plan and left it to Tobi to carry it out
B. Both Tobi and Madara created the plan, and Madara left it to Tobi to carry it out (and revive him later)


Original Plan: 

Akatsuki captures all of the tailed beasts, and then Nagato revives Madara with Rinne Tensei. Tobi oversees all of this. Once Nagato revives him, Madara revives the Juubi, carries out the Moon's Eye Plan, takes over the world, profit. The war was never part of the plan.

Where plan went wrong: 

Akatsuki was unable to capture the 8-tails or 9-tails, and Nagato died. Tobi probably has no way to revive Madara. So instead, he says fuck Madara and starts a war (to capture Naruto and Bee), and then plans of taking over the world himself (ie. without the original Madara). He's less than happy that the original Madara is back in the picture, and Madara probably is wondering why Tobi isn't following the plan.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> What if both of them are Tobi?



I wouldn't be surprised if Tobi/Masked Men were a rebel sect in the Uchiha or something like Uchiha ANBU.  The current Tobi killed them off and hijacked the plan lol.



jacamo said:


> there you go again changing the facts to your liking ObitoUchiha111
> 
> manga canon says Tobi fought Hashirama... but you say
> 
> ...



He also was saying he was Madara.  Tobi also said he didn't use Kurama attack the Hidden Leaf...  

Madara's soul was EDO and he has a totally different personality and has continuously said he fought Harshirama.  That means even if Tobi is not Obito he did not fight him to gain his power because he's not Madara.  Neither did he take Izuna's eyes or any of the other Madara crap he was talking.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> there you go again changing the facts to your liking ObitoUchiha111
> 
> manga canon says Tobi fought Hashirama... but you say
> 
> ...


I am not changing the facts to my liking. No rational person does that. I am speculating on unconfirmed things.

Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. MADARA did. Where do people get this from. Source?

He was pretending to be Madara when he said that. At this point we don't know which of his Madara claims were actually his actions or Madara's.



And yes, the Kagami theory has plotholes. 

Firstly, Kagami was NOT Tobirama's student. People assume he was for the sake of the theory. The Kagami theory is the most retarded shit I've ever heard of.

Not only was he not Tobirama's student, but he was not with Tobirama long enough to have learned Space-Time Ninjutsu from him. Team Who-gives-a-shit teamed up with Team Tobirama for ONE MISSION during the entire First Great Shinobi World War.

And, I doubt Tobirama would've taught shit to Kagami seeing as how suspicious he was of the Uchiha. It doesn't. fucking. add. up.

Now here are some more problems with the theory:

The most likely origin of Tobi's name comes from Tengu myth. Not from Tobirama.

We've never got a good look at Kagami's face. We got a view on an odd angle in the title page, then we got a shot of his face from a few feet away. it doesn't make sense for his face to be the one behind the mask. We won't recognize it. The hair style is also different... Also, how the hell would Kagami be so young in current times? It makes no sense...

Not to mention he was introduced 200 chapters AFTER Tobi.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> It's pretty clear he knows. Check the following pages - in fact I think a LOT of people need to reread the dialogue, it makes several things very clear that people still argue about:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's certainly seem to be Madara's plan.  But did you also notice when he mentioned fake Madara... real Madara [....].  We don't know who Madara left the plans to.  It could have been someone else and they brought Tobi into the plans.  The current Tobi certainly seems rogue regardless.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What exactly is your point?
> 
> 
> That's ridiculous. If there's more than one Tobi then why is only ONE of them getting unmasked. Not to mention that it would be stupid, make no sense, would ruin his status as final villain and completely ruin the uniqueness of his Space-Time Ninjutsu.




You can't even grasp such a basic point or are you so downright ignorant if not stupid?
What's so hard about understanding that it's a CANON FACT that during Nidaimes reign Uchihas turned rebels out of hatred for Tobirama and the Senju and sided with Madara and his Ideals.


Because that's the current Tobi and the others are most likely dead considering they lived about 40-60 years ago.

Stupid for you.Though that ain't hard when you can't even grasp my first point when even retards from Viz can understand it.

Final Villain.

No it wouldn't as the S/T Jutsu has only been used by the current Tobi.
Show me Tobi using it before the Kyuubi rampage.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)




----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> What's so hard about understanding that it's a CANON FACT that during Nidaimes reign Uchihas turned rebels out of hatred for Tobirama and the Senju and sided with Madara and his Ideals.


How does this canonically PROVE that they all became Tobis?




> Because that's the current Tobi and the others are most likely dead considering they lived about 40-60 years ago.


No shit, but it's still anti-climactic. Seriously, what the hell?



> Final Villain.


I don't see what's so hard to understand about the guy who killed Naruto's parents being the FV.



> No it wouldn't as the S/T Jutsu has only been used by the current Tobi.
> Show me Tobi using it before the Kyuubi rampage.


Listen. Tobi is the main villain. He is a dangerous, evil man who killed Naruto's parents and helped massacre the entire Uchiha clan. It would ruin his character for him to be more than one. There's only one Tobi. He is a serious threat. Do I really need to go back to the basics? Tobi is a character. His own character. His S/T is what makes him special. People are going absolutely nuts with this shit...

It's tobi himself who is menacing. His mask is HIS symbol only. It would ruin his character and the whole idea if there were more than one of him. of course, I don't need to tell you this, because you'll see eventually...

Badass picture. But how does this contribute to anything? Unless of course, that image of Kakashi sitting was actually in the manga.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 22, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> It's certainly seem to be Madara's plan.  But did you also notice when he mentioned fake Madara... real Madara [....].  We don't know who Madara left the plans to.  It could have been someone else and they brought Tobi into the plans.  The current Tobi certainly seems rogue regardless.



It's pretty clear that he left the plans to the "fake Madara" ie. Tobi. Madara flat out asks Kabuto if he knows about "our plan", and Kabuto basically says "sort of, but I'm not sure if the "fake Madara" will follow it". And then he refers to himself as his (meaning the guy who had a plan along with Madara) assistant. Obviously Tobi is the only person Kabuto is assisting at the time.

Who else would "fake Madara" be? It's not like there's any other character we know about going around saying he's Madara. Whether you think Tobi is _literally_ a fake Madara or just someone else pretending to be him is another question.

But yeah, current Tobi probably decided to go rogue after Nagato died, since he couldn't revive Madara anyway.

Tobi will have some serious explaining to do when he runs into Madara. In fact, other than Zetsu, Madara is the only person who seems to know exactly who Tobi is, so I bet that the Madara-Tobi meeting will lead to a big reveal about Tobi. Either that, or Naruto knocks Tobi's mask off and then Madara arrives to explain Tobi's backstory.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Here's something that seems like a huge ass clue in retrospect.

Obito's name was first mentioned in Chapter 139.

Akatsuki was first introduced in Chapter 140.

Now Tobi(supposedly), spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki. So, in a way, Tobi is the creator of it. Now, Obito's name was first mentioned in the manga just one chapter before Akatsuki was introduced. I guess the chicken comes before the egg after all.

Now, this wouldn't have meant anything before. So, it almost seems like an "inside hint" of Kishi's. 

I'm probably looking way too deep into things. But this definitely seems interesting, imo.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 22, 2012)

manga canon states Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan... you say it was Madara

manga canon states Tobi fought Hashirama... you say they didnt fight 

THATS CALLED CHANGING THE FACTS TO YOUR LIKING


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> manga canon states Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan... you say it was Madara
> 
> manga canon states Tobi fought Hashirama... you say they didnt fight
> 
> THATS CALLED CHANGING THE FACTS TO YOUR LIKING


As I said. I don't change facts. That's not how a rational mind works. You, however, seem to be completely irrational.

Going by your logic, Tobi is Madara. Even though he's dead he's also alive. Seems legit.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Badass picture. But how does this contribute to anything? Unless of course, that image of Kakashi sitting was actually in the manga.



Lol nothing but express the obvious symbolism of Tobi and Obito.  Its hard to swallow Tobito because if it is him there are a ton of lies and plot holes and maybe third characters.  But when you look at just character design, symbolism, significance of the reveal, connection to Kakashi having mystery of Rin, him facing Tobi despite the power escalation, the anguished person taunt, Tobi's face being still hidden after being exposed, his MS pattern being hidden it just scream obito as the front runner.  I think some people can except they missed him and its obvious.  I could be wrong next week but damn lol.



jacamo said:


> manga canon states Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan... you say it was Madara
> 
> manga canon states Tobi fought Hashirama... you say they didnt fight
> 
> THATS .CALLED CHANGING THE FACTS TO YOUR LIKING



So this means the whole Minato vs. Tobi never happened because Tobi told Sasuke it didn't?  Tobi's words are 100% reliable and canon.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol nothing but express the obvious symbolism of Tobi and Obito.  Its hard to swallow Tobito because if it is him there are a ton of lies and plot holes and maybe third characters.  But when you look at just character design, symbolism, significance of the reveal, connection to Kakashi having mystery of Rin, him facing Tobi despite the power escalation, the anguished person taunt, Tobi's face being still hidden after being exposed, his MS pattern being hidden it just scream obito as the front runner.  I think some people can except they missed him and its obvious.  I could be wrong next week but damn lol.


Exactly. Sadly, people don't listen to that. You're really good at summing up your points in short paragraphs. You, Sutol, and First Tsurugi are probably the best Tobito debaters out there, lol.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Here's something that seems like a huge ass clue in retrospect.
> 
> Obito's name was first mentioned in Chapter 139.
> 
> ...



Yeah, but I mean, Obito is too young to have done that. The original Akatsuki was created during the 3rd Shinobi war, which was going on when Obito was a preteen. It ended before Tobi even fought Minato, and Obito would've been younger than Konan/Nagato/Yahiko. 

Seems a little silly for a 13-year old Obito to be spurning Yahiko into forming Akatsuki and giving Nagato the Rinnegan. In fact Nagato had the Rinnegan when he was a preteen, so Obito would've had to have given him the Rinnegan around the time he was an infant or little kid. 

Really, the only way the Obito thing could work is if he has Madara's memories or is just pointlessly lying.


----------



## NW (Jul 22, 2012)

Matter of fact, imma go gather up all of Sutol's Tobito posts right now. he soloes.



MYJC said:


> Yeah, but I mean, Obito is too young to have done that. The original Akatsuki was created during the 3rd Shinobi war, which was going on when Obito was a preteen. It ended before Tobi even fought Minato, and Obito would've been younger than Konan/Nagato/Yahiko.
> 
> Seems a little silly for a 13-year old Obito to be spurning Yahiko into forming Akatsuki and giving Nagato the Rinnegan. In fact Nagato had the Rinnegan when he was a preteen, so Obito would've had to have given him the Rinnegan around the time he was an infant or little kid.
> 
> Really, the only way the Obito thing could work is if he has Madara's memories or is just pointlessly lying.


Good point. But, do you think it could also fit into the time frame that Obito could have been 15-16 when Akatsuki was formed? I mean, if Tobi is obito, then the 15-16 year old Obito was as tall and mature as an adult. So where's the problem? About the Rinnegan, it could have been Madara who gave the Rinnegan to Nagato. We seriously can't tell which of Tobi's Madara lies were his doing or Madara's doing. It could go either way for now.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> manga canon states Tobi fought Hashirama...



Really? Where did it say that? Show me the manga page where it said that.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Yeah, but I mean, Obito is too young to have done that. The original Akatsuki was created during the 3rd Shinobi war, which was going on when Obito was a preteen. It ended before Tobi even fought Minato, and Obito would've been younger than Konan/Nagato/Yahiko.
> 
> Seems a little silly for a 13-year old Obito to be spurning Yahiko into forming Akatsuki and giving Nagato the Rinnegan. In fact Nagato had the Rinnegan when he was a preteen, so Obito would've had to have given him the Rinnegan around the time he was an infant or little kid.
> 
> Really, the only way the Obito thing could work is if he has Madara's memories or is just pointlessly lying.



It's worst lol.  Akatsuki started during the 2n Shinobi war.

Tobi does pointlessly lie.  Just like he did with Kabuto.  Though just could have told Kabuto because Kabuto doesn't know who he is or how old he is.  

He also never told Konan that he wasn't Madara either because it would have ruined who was in the coffin.  

I mean aren't there panels of Tobi being goofy by himself.  Dude seems a bit deranged about his roles.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 22, 2012)

1 page ago you said Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan



manga canon states that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara

you changed the facts right there  case closed




HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Really? Where did it say that? Show me the manga page where it said that.



my sig - plothole no.9 in the 11 Obito plotholes link


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> 1 page ago you said Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, He Isn't Changing The Facts. He's simply stating his own opinion. He's saying that there is a possibility of Madara giving the Rinnegan to Nagato. He's not saying it's automatically canon >_>

Oh, this is an arguement for your plothole no. 9, jacamo: Tobi is obviously not Madara. So if Tobi actually fought Hashi, then that means Hashi fought two people Madara and Tobi? Lolwut.

I'm not trying to defend the Obito theory with this arguement in any way, I'm just fighting back what makes no sense.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> 1 page ago you said Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If what Tobi says is canon.

Tobi is Madara, the EDO is a fake.

Tobi didn't attack hidden leaf or fight minato.  That whole panel must have been genjutsu because he told Sasuke he didn't.

Tobi fought Harshirama, the Fake EDO Madara is a liar.  

Come on dude.  Everything Tobi says isn't true meaning anything he says could be a lie.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 23, 2012)

Sutol's posts basically rely on 'They look alike, of course Obito is Tobi!' 

And way to ignore that _Obito's body was crushed beyond usability_ by the first damn boulder. And way to ignore that it was further _reduced to a red mush_ by the cave collapse.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> If what Tobi says is canon.
> 
> Tobi is Madara, the EDO is a fake.
> 
> ...


The entire plot twist with Tobi/Madara was a mistake. It's horrible writing for a character who provides backstory to be a known liar. Someone relating past events is often the only way of getting this information - it should never be in doubt. To maintain the integrity of the story I do think Tobi needs to be Madara in some way. Was it all an act? I have no idea why he'd wear a mask or behave like an idiot in Akatsuki. Or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> The entire plot twist with Tobi/Madara was a mistake. It's horrible writing for a character who provides backstory to be a known liar. Someone relating past events is often the only way of getting this information - it should never be in doubt. To maintain the integrity of the story I do think Tobi needs to be Madara in some way. Was it all an act? I have no idea why he'd wear a mask or behave like an idiot in Akatsuki. Or anyone else for that matter.



Yeah...there are SO many things about Tobi that make no sense (regardless of who he is) that I have a hard time imagining that Kishi will answer them satisfactorily. I mean:

1. What the was the point of the goofy act? So people wouldn't think he was Madara when he's not actually Madara anyway? 

2. Why infiltrate an organization (Akatsuki) that he was apparently controlling anyway?

3. Did Nagato and Konan know he wasn't really Madara? It doesn't make sense either way. If they really thought he was Madara, how was Tobi planning on getting Nagato to revive Madara with Rinne Tensei ("What do you mean revive Madara...aren't you Madara?)? And if they did know he wasn't Madara, why take orders from him?

4. What was the point of sending Akatsuki members after Naruto and Bee (and then starting a war) when he should be able to capture them easily themselves? I mean he can turn himself intangible at will, teleport apparently anywhere, use incredible genjutsu, and send people to a pocket dimension indefinitely. 

All he should have to do is simply wait until Naruto/Bee is sleep and then warp them away...they'd never know what happened. Or barring that, put them under a genjutsu. If he was able to do it to Yagura (who was also a Jinchuuriki) he should be able to get Naruto and Bee. In fact, until the war, he NEVER used his own powers to help Akatsuki. He always seems to take the most difficult and complex option.

5. Why did Kisame call him "Madara" when he saw him unmasked?


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 23, 2012)

*Tobi Identity rundown*

Part 1

We can run through the list of Uchiha, and pick of those that cannot be Tobi

First, we should eliminate all the Uchiha who cannot possible be Tobi.

*Fugaku Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible, probably dead (confirmed by Itachi)

*Hikaku Uchiha*
Possible, but should be long dead at this point.

*Inabi Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible, probably dead. 

*Itachi Uchiha*
Has met Tobi, was born after Hashirama died, not possible.

*Izuna Uchiha*
Possible, but should be dead. 

*Kagami Uchiha*
possible, but should be dead. Unlikely was ever able to fight Hashirama.

*Madara Uchiha*
Is dead now, confirmed.

*Mikoto Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time she was alive, not possible, probably dead (confirmed by Itachi)

*Obito Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible.

*Sasuke Uchiha*
Has met Tobi, Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible.

*Shisui Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible, probably dead( confirmed by Itachi)


*Teyaki Uchiha*
Probably dead, Hashirama was probably dead by the time he was alive, not possible

*Uruchi Uchiha*
Probably dead, Hashirama was  probably dead by the time she was alive, not possible

*Yakumi Uchiha*
Hashirama was dead by the time he was alive, not possible, probably dead.


Part 1 Elimination links:
Hashirama fought Tobi
*note, Tobi was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both knew he was not Madara at the time, no reason to lie. 
Funkagu and Mikoto are dead.
Itachi met Tobi
Madara is dead
Sasuke met Tobi
Shiushi is dead


So after part 1 elimination, these are the only people left who could possibly be tobi:

*Hikaku Uchiha
Izuna Uchiha
Kagami Uchiha
Teyaki Uchiha
Uruchi Uchiha*

Part 2
This is where we move from fact to probability. 

*Hikaku Uchiha*
Saw in what appears to be mid 20's, if not mid 30's over 80-90 years ago, seen in one panel and was never actually mentioned. Possibly named by fans. Going to eliminate from Tobi discussion.  

*Teyaki and Uruchi Uchiha*
both were seen in one panel, both appeared old and useless, not the type to survive the Uchiha clan massacre. Going to eliminate both of them. 

*Izuna Uchiha*
While never named in the manga, played a significant role in the life of Madara Uchiha, the type of person Madara would be likely to plan something with. 

*Kagami Uchiha*
Had brief line but was named in the manga. Possible that since Tobirama was already the hokage Hashirama was already dead, tough this is not 100%, and very unlikely to have fought Hashirama before his appearance as probably would not have still been a Konoha shinobi had he had a full out battle with Hashirama.

So after part 2, we now have 2 possible Tobi candidates:
1. Izuna Uchiha
2. Kagami Uchiha

I personally think Izuna has a lot more relevance to the story while Kagami is much more of a fodder background character, plus i'm certain Izuna was bound to fight Hashirama at some point in their clan battles. 

Part 3
I am now going to discuss some alternate theories. 

*The 2 Tobi's theory*
This is the theory that the long haired tobi was madara and the short haired tobi was someone else. But this is wrong. Kisame met long haired Madara, then Kisame met long haired Madaraidentifies him as the same person, by calling him the "Mizukage" and "Madara", so this theory is false.

*Time travel theory*
Not once has it been shown that time travel is possible in this manga.

*Body/mind split*
Only time this was done was by Dan, that jutsu does not last long and was said to be only known by Dan, therefore this theory is very unlikely.

*Elder son theory*
Why wait 1000 years to start the plan? Why not take them all at once from Hashirama and Madara? This theory does not make a lot of sense. 


There you have it, a full analysis on Tobi's identity.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> The entire plot twist with Tobi/Madara was a mistake. It's horrible writing for a character who provides backstory to be a known liar. Someone relating past events is often the only way of getting this information - it should never be in doubt. To maintain the integrity of the story I do think Tobi needs to be Madara in some way. Was it all an act? I have no idea why he'd wear a mask or behave like an idiot in Akatsuki. Or anyone else for that matter.



this. I think tobi is madara is good twist but tobi is not madara is a poor twist given tobi is too much hype and powers while he was said to be madara.



MYJC said:


> Yeah...there are SO many things about Tobi that make no sense (regardless of who he is) that I have a hard time imagining that Kishi will answer them satisfactorily. I mean:
> 
> 1. What the was the point of the goofy act? So people wouldn't think he was Madara when he's not actually Madara anyway?
> 
> ...



The only answer to ur question is plot shield. I am counting on kishi regarding the explaination of all ur questions


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 23, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *note, Tobi was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both knew he was not Madara at the time, no reason to lie.



And Tobi was alone with Konan, a woman that was dying, when he told her that he was Madara.  Then he killed her. He had no reason to continue lying to her.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 23, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> And Tobi was alone with Konan, a woman that was dying, when he told her that he was Madara.  Then he killed her. He had no reason to continue lying to her.



That is when kishi thought tobi to be madara. Kishi has changed his mind now. Can't be helped....


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 23, 2012)

KAGAMI UCHIHA:

1. Teamed with hiruzen, danzo, and the current advisers of the leaf.
2. Trained by tobirama(the 2nd hokage)
3. More than likely had contact with madara uchiha and hashirama.
4. More than likely had contact with a young grieving(his parents) orochimaru
5. Tobi is kinda old and kagami uchiha would be too at this point.
6. Tobi clearly has vast knowledge of the leaf, it's people, and it's deep secrets. Something only an old insider could know.
7. Tobi read from the uchiha stone tablet something only uchihas of age with a fully awaken sharrigan do.
8. Notice how the higher ups in the village are from kagami's team? Remember how the uchiha were kept away from major positions of power?
9. Kagami could be the person who came up with the idea of the uchiha coup.
10. He could be madara's cousin, son, nephew, or a uchiha who followed madara.
10. Could have been kakashi and guy's teacher at ninja school
11. Could be strong enough to fight on par with minato(just like hiruzen & danzo)
12. We don't know if he died or how long he lived after hiruzen became hokage.

*Spoiler*: __ 




.................................................. .....




*For all the crazy tobi = obito people*

SO OBITO GAVE THE RINNINGAN TO NAGATO AND GAVE THE IDEA TO YAHIKO TO FORM AKATSUKI? 

OBITO WAS IN THE RAIN VILLAGE WHILE J MAN, OROCHIMARU, TSUNADE FOUGHT HANZO? 

OBITO WAS IN THE RAIN VILLAGE WHEN J MAN WAS TEACHING THE "YOUNG" RAIN CHILDREN BEFORE HE EVEN FINISHED NINJA SCHOOL?The rain children are around he same age as obito.

*AKATSUKI WAS BEING FORMED AND OROCHIMARU ALREADY JOINED BEFORE OBITO EVEN DIED!!!! SO WHO WAS RUNNING AKATSUKI AT THIS TIME?*

LET IT GO PEOPLE.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 23, 2012)

"The Sharingan is unique to each person"

ck

It's Zetsu


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Yeah...there are SO many things about Tobi that make no sense (regardless of who he is) that I have a hard time imagining that Kishi will answer them satisfactorily. I mean:
> 
> 1. What the was the point of the goofy act? So people wouldn't think he was Madara when he's not actually Madara anyway?


That seems ridiculous now. Even if you want to hide your identity there's no need to act goofy.



> 2. Why infiltrate an organization (Akatsuki) that he was apparently controlling anyway?


err, no idea. I doubt Kishi knows.



> 3. Did Nagato and Konan know he wasn't really Madara? It doesn't make sense either way. If they really thought he was Madara, how was Tobi planning on getting Nagato to revive Madara with Rinne Tensei ("What do you mean revive Madara...aren't you Madara?)? And if they did know he wasn't Madara, why take orders from him?


It's all very confusing. The guy wears a mask. Did they not ask for proof of identity? Even Itachi said Madara was his accomplice. Tobi and Madara must be closely connected/related for any of this to make sense.



> 4. What was the point of sending Akatsuki members after Naruto and Bee (and then starting a war) when he should be able to capture them easily themselves? I mean he can turn himself intangible at will, teleport apparently anywhere, use incredible genjutsu, and send people to a pocket dimension indefinitely.


One of those silly plot contrivances to extend the story. Tobi is too strong for logical writing. Plus, he let Naruto go on several occasions.



> 5. Why did Kisame call him "Madara" when he saw him unmasked?


Madara and Mizukage. If that was Tobi acting, why did he think Kisame would care about Madara? He's not from Konoha. If you're gonna lie make it relevant to the person you are talking to.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 23, 2012)

At first I thought it was obito, but then I started to lean towards him being sasuke from THE FUTURE. These latest chapters are crushing the future sasuke theory for me though, so I'm betting it's going to be Obito again.

Funny how the same posters who denied Madara being the 6th coffin ( and advocated for characters like uzumaki clan leader...or other stupid shit) are the same ones denying obito. Pitching the idea of uzumaki clan leader back then is like pitching the idea of kagami or some other freaking nobody with no relevance now.

You weren't correct back then, and you'll very likely be wrong again.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

The latest chapter didn't change much really. In fact, Tobi's comment to Gai (about not remembering faces) was originally said by Gai in chapter 567. Tobi was there. 

It's also possible Kakashi mentioned his "life of regrets" openly. Tobi has lots of intel. Still, if he's from Konoha I'd expect him to be aware of Kakashi and Gai. Knowing each other doesn't automatically point to Obito.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 23, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Yeah...there are SO many things about Tobi that make no sense (regardless of who he is) that I have a hard time imagining that Kishi will answer them satisfactorily. I mean:
> 
> 1. What the was the point of the goofy act? So people wouldn't think he was Madara when he's not actually Madara anyway?
> 
> ...


There you go. Pay more attention lol.


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 23, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Yeah...there are SO many things about Tobi that make no sense (regardless of who he is) that I have a hard time imagining that Kishi will answer them satisfactorily. I mean:
> 
> 1. What the was the point of the goofy act? So people wouldn't think he was Madara when he's not actually Madara anyway?
> 
> ...



Also, why did Zetsu treat Tobi like a stupid kid in the latter's introduction when he should have known who he was all along.

I doubt all of these will be answered at this point.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 23, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> At first I thought it was obito, but then I started to lean towards him being sasuke from THE FUTURE. These latest chapters are crushing the future sasuke theory for me though, so I'm betting it's going to be Obito again.
> 
> Funny how the same posters who denied Madara being the 6th coffin ( and advocated for characters like uzumaki clan leader...or other stupid shit) are the same ones denying obito. Pitching the idea of uzumaki clan leader back then is like pitching the idea of kagami or some other freaking nobody with no relevance now.
> 
> You weren't correct back then, and you'll very likely be wrong again.



lol not everybody was wrong  

i was saying Madara was in the 6th coffin, 2 years before the reveal... ridiculed with  and  and  smilies of the like

ive been saying Tobi = Kagami for almost 2 years now... predictably ridiculed, which is fine, but people better hope im wrong about this one


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 23, 2012)

The Tobi/Madara identity thing is a confusing mess of a bad writing to keep us guessing at his identity even if it makes no sense to lie.  Like to play Madara to Kabuto right after being exposed.  Tobi says since he says since she's going to die and everything he says is a lie.  I am starting to think there is a another masked man prior to Obito and after Madara or a pro-Madara organization.

If this were a criminal case and considering alll suspects are thought dead Obito is the only person you can give more reason than being a dead uchiha and fan fiction.

For example future Sasuke/Naruto is all fan fiction theory.

Kagami is suspect the only reason is because he's a paneled unknown old Uchiha.  There are plenty of other Uchiha unpaneled his age who have as much relevance, none.  He has no plot holes because he has no plot.  

Izuna we've seen in a coffin and confirmed dead by Madara.

Elder Son is fan fiction theory.

Obito a ton of physical and circumstancial evidence but plot holes and confusion in large part because of uncertainty of Tobi's honesty that could prove or disprove the theory.  

Shishiu has been confirmed dead by police and Itachi but body not found by Kabuto.  Had his right eye snatched by Danzo sandwiched between Tobi's appearances which kind of eliminates him.  He is likely too young as well.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 23, 2012)

I was just rereading a few chapters and something Sai said kinda stood out a little...

"Sai was just my name for this mission. I'm no-one. I do not exist."

Tobi acts in somewhat a similar manner. He used the name Tobi to become part of Akatsuki, and he used the name Uchiha Madara to incite war. We still don't know what his real name is and he insists that he is no-one and that all that matters is the completion of his mission.

If I remember rightly, Tobi was quite familiar with Danzo. He also seemed to know Orochimaru personally. The recent revelation of Orochimaru being in ROOT kinda makes me wonder...

Could Tobi have been an experiment? If Orochimaru performed an experiment to create ninja with Hashirama's power, could he have also tried to perform an experiment to create ninja with Madara's power? After all, since Orochimaru wanted an Uchiha's body, why capture one when you can just create one?

It'd be a neat twist if the reason Orochimaru came back was because he created Tobi and got the "failed experiment" inducted into ROOT. Of course, this would allow room for Tobi to have Madara's memories and might even imply that Orochimaru and the real Madara were in cahoots (so the person Madara was talking about was indeed Orochimaru, not Tobi).


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 23, 2012)

Velocity said:


> I was just rereading a few chapters and something Sai said kinda stood out a little...
> 
> "Sai was just my name for this mission. I'm no-one. I do not exist."
> 
> ...



You're quite on the right way I suggest you to read my following reply


----------



## jacamo (Jul 23, 2012)

Velocity said:


> I was just rereading a few chapters and something Sai said kinda stood out a little...
> 
> "Sai was just my name for this mission. I'm no-one. I do not exist."
> 
> ...



ive always quite liked this idea 

but i kind of prefer my villains to be their own person with their own backstory... Kagami being a founding member of Root would also work


----------



## Res1990 (Jul 23, 2012)

Guys i believe Tobi is Izuna. After Madara fought Hashirama and awakened the rinnegan he discovered Rinne Tensei. Since all the uchiha had turned their back to him the only one loyal to him would be his brother Izuna but he was death. So Madara found nagato and thought to use him in order to ressurect himself(MADARA) in the future. So before Madara die he rinne tensei Izuna leaving him some instructions about his plan. Then Izuna took Madara eyes and gave them to Nagato and started acting according to Madara's plan that has been left behind by Madara before his death. 

A hint is that Tobi said that rinnegan was his eyes to begin with, This is truth as he gave  his eyes to Madara in order to achieve the Ems. Moreover, Madara said that this was his doing meaning he knew who he was and the only one possible candidate for being his partner is Izuna. Moreover, it fits the timeline perfectly.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> The entire plot twist with Tobi/Madara was a mistake. It's horrible writing for a character who provides backstory to be a known liar. Someone relating past events is often the only way of getting this information - it should never be in doubt. To maintain the integrity of the story I do think Tobi needs to be Madara in some way. Was it all an act? I have no idea why he'd wear a mask or behave like an idiot in Akatsuki. Or anyone else for that matter.


it would have been a mistake to have Tobi actually BE Madara. it made no sense whatsoever.



Hossaim said:


> *Tobi Identity rundown*
> 
> Part 1
> 
> ...


What the hell are you talking about!? People are overcomlicating this shit. Tobi did not fight Hashirama. is that so hard to understand.



Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> That is when kishi thought tobi to be madara. Kishi has changed his mind now. Can't be helped....


Kishi never thought Tobi to be Madara. He had no intention of it at all. Kishi has had Tobi's identity set from the start and it was NOT Uchiha Madara.



Velocity said:


> I was just rereading a few chapters and something Sai said kinda stood out a little...
> 
> "Sai was just my name for this mission. I'm no-one. I do not exist."
> 
> ...





			
				Normal Person's Reaction If That Was True said:
			
		

> What the fuck? I can't believe this. I waited so long to see the masked man and the subject of all that mystery be a failed lab experiment? What the Hell is Kishi on?!





			
				Idiot's Reaction If That Was True said:
			
		

> ZOMFG, HE'S A FAILED LAB EXPERIMENT!!!! OMG!!!!!!! THIS IS SOOOO FUCKING AWESOME!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS!!!! THIS IS SO WORTH THE WAIT!!!! A FAILED LAB EXPERIMENT MAKES SUCH A GREAT FINAL VILLAIN!!!!!


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Res1990 said:


> Guys i believe Tobi is Izuna. After Madara fought Hashirama and awakened the rinnegan he discovered Rinne Tensei. Since all the uchiha had turned their back to him the only one loyal to him would be his brother Izuna but he was death. So Madara found nagato and thought to use him in order to ressurect himself(MADARA) in the future. So before Madara die he rinne tensei Izuna leaving him some instructions about his plan. Then Izuna took Madara eyes and gave them to Nagato and started acting according to Madara's plan that has been left behind by Madara before his death.
> 
> A hint is that Tobi said that rinnegan was his eyes to begin with, This is truth as he gave  his eyes to Madara in order to achieve the Ems. Moreover, Madara said that this was his doing meaning he knew who he was and the only one possible candidate for being his partner is Izuna. Moreover, it fits the timeline perfectly.


 Nice theory. Sounds very plausible. Imo Izuna is the only other Tobi candidate besides Obito that we'd recognize. Overall I'd say it has a 40% chance of coming true. I personally wouldn't like it to be Izuna but I'm not going to deny that it's possible.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 23, 2012)

here

IF assuming the long haired guy:
- He never cut his hair to short
- Someone known Uchiha we already have seen
- Roughly same hair length 

So there are only two reasonable options:


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> it would have been a mistake to have Tobi actually BE Madara. it made no sense whatsoever.


Why didn't it make sense? The first Madara reveal happened way back in chapter 364, before we knew anything about him. He'd been named by Kyuubi and that's all. Kishi could've written anything at this point and no-one could question it. But now, after the real Madara showed up, it proves Tobi is a completely unreliable source. Not the kind of person you want providing backstory.

Tobi NOT being Madara is the reason people are able to find plotholes and timeline issues. Sure, you can try to explain them but the alternative (Tobi = Madara) is far simpler. The only question to answer is how he lived so long.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 23, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Link removed
> 
> IF assuming the long haired guy:
> - He never cut his hair to short
> ...



There is one more long haired one...


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sutol's posts basically rely on 'They look alike, of course Obito is Tobi!'
> 
> And way to ignore that _Obito's body was crushed beyond usability_ by the first damn boulder. And way to ignore that it was further _reduced to a red mush_ by the cave collapse.


Sutol also provides evidence why only obito makes sense to be Tobi. And, Tobi's body is really fucked up in case you haven't noticed. Look at his face and all those scars. Look at the rest of his body which looks like it was repaired with Zetsu goo. Your argument is completely invalid.

And of course looking alike has a big role to play.
 We need to recognize the face behind the mask and Tobi needs to of course, LOOK like the person he is. Anyone who can't comprehend is an idiot. I'm sorry but, it's true.

Tobi and Obito have the exact same facial structure, eyelids, eyebrows, and EYESHAPE. At the very least, it is definitely his body. Once people accept that, things will come alot clearer. The only thing I see up fir debate is who's soul is in the body. I'd go so far to say that it is Obito's soul as well, but many argue against that.



Easley said:


> Why didn't it make sense? The first Madara reveal happened way back in chapter 364, before we knew anything about him. He'd been named by Kyuubi and that's all. Kishi could've written anything at this point and no-one could question it. But now, after the real Madara showed up, it proves Tobi is a completely unreliable source. Not the kind of person you want providing backstory.
> 
> Tobi NOT being Madara is the reason people are able to find plotholes and timeline issues. Sure, you can try to explain them but the alternative (Tobi = Madara) is far simpler. The only question to answer is how he lived so long.


We still needed to wonder how Madara lived so long, why his face was so young, why he had space-time Ninjutsu, why he still wore a mask.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We still needed to wonder how Madara lived so long, why his face was so young, why he had space-time Ninjutsu, why he still wore a mask.


Well, that would be for Kishi to explain. He'd obviously keep some secrets to himself for later chapters. Tobi being Madara was accepted by most people. The problem then, and now, is that he kept the damn mask on. You can never be 100% sure about his identity. Whoever Tobi is, I think Madara is deeply involved.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> Well, that would be for Kishi to explain. He'd obviously keep some secrets to himself for later chapters. Tobi being Madara was accepted by most people. The problem then, and now, is that he kept the damn mask on. You can never be 100% sure about his identity. Whoever Tobi is, I think Madara is deeply involved.



there's another problem. Madara was brought back from the dead while tobi is there 


so in this regard the Madara theory is just like all the other theories, filled with things kishi needs to explain. Obito is no less retarded than this theory or any of the other ones.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

son_michael said:


> there's another problem. Madara was brought back from the dead while tobi is there
> 
> 
> so in this regard the Madara theory is just like all the other theories, filled with things kishi needs to explain. Obito is no less retarded than this theory or any of the other ones.


That's not what he was implying. He was just saying that when we were supposed to think Tobi was Madara, there wasn't much needed to be explained except for a few things.



Easley said:


> *Well, that would be for Kishi to explain. He'd obviously keep some secrets to himself for later chapters.* Tobi being Madara was accepted by most people. The problem then, and now, is that he kept the damn mask on. You can never be 100% sure about his identity. Whoever Tobi is, I think Madara is deeply involved.


Same thing applies to every single other theory, lol.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> There is one more long haired one...



Reread my post. He's not an Uchiha.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

son_michael said:


> there's another problem. Madara was brought back from the dead while tobi is there
> 
> 
> so in this regard the Madara theory is just like all the other theories, filled with things kishi needs to explain. Obito is no less retarded than this theory or any of the other ones.


I don't support any theory now. I did like the Tobi = Madara reveal and stood by it until the real Madara showed up. I thought that was an unnecessary twist to be honest. Who Tobi is now is anyone's guess, but people will always favor their preferred candidate when making theories.

Tobito is not "retarded" but it is definitely not something I'd like to see happen. Obito was a decent character in KG with a heroic death, but returning as the villain? hmm, no, that does nothing for me.



			
				ObitoUchiha111 said:
			
		

> Same thing applies to every single other theory, lol.


Exactly.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 23, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Reread my post. *He's not an Uchiha*.



Yes he is not, and Tobi is not an Uchiha too..


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's not what *s*he was implying. *S*he was just saying that when we were supposed to think Tobi was Madara, there wasn't much needed to be explained except for a few things.


Right. Tobi/Madara was easy to explain because he's an unknown quantity at that point. It's up to Kishi to flesh out his character. The readers can speculate of course, but we had no real info until Itachi and Tobi spoke to Sasuke.


----------



## Tasq21 (Jul 23, 2012)

^^why not?because he never turns off his sharingan?he is using it all the time...if he wasn't an uchiha he would hid his sharingan like kakashi. 

anyway I'm suprised how many people still ignore the obito theory...
im mean...of course everybody can have his own opinion but...wow so may people hate it...I agree with ObitoUchiha111.Obito and Naruto have a lot of similarities... he would fit as a final villain...
and for the lolzz:
its funny how early Kishi drew obito in the manga....578 chapters ago...


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Jul 23, 2012)

I still maintain that he's Madara's son (and hence his legacy)

As for Tobi=Obito, I seriously doubt Kishi is even going to consider making a half-assed failure he thought up during Kakashi Gaiden the FV. 
If Tobi was Obito, then Kakashi would suddenly become the most important protagonist in the series, and I bet my left testicle that's never going to happen.

IMO it's too much of a far cry to equate the two, simply 'coz they have similar hairstyles and slightly resemble each other.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 23, 2012)

If Tobi turns out to be Obito (though I highly doubt it), then it would be logical for Kakashi to fight and defeat him. Naruto doesn't know Obito, so him fighting someone he doesn't even know will seem kinda weird.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 23, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> If Tobi turns out to be Obito (though I highly doubt it), then it would be logical for Kakashi to fight and defeat him. Naruto doesn't know Obito, so him fighting someone he doesn't even know will seem kinda weird.



I don't know about that.

Certainly Kakashi would fight him but defeating him may ultimately be up to Naruto, given what Minato said about him.

Doubly so if Tobi turns out to be the true Final Villain.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> ^^why not?because he never turns off his sharingan?he is using it all the time...if he wasn't an uchiha he would hid his sharingan like kakashi.


Tobi not being an Uchiha is certainly possible. We've never seen him activate or deactivate his sharingan. Wouldn't Deidara notice? Kishi was sneaky and hid it in shadow before the reveal.



> anyway I'm suprised how many people still ignore the obito theory...


It's impossible to ignore since Obito theories flood the internet, not just this forum.



> im mean...of course everybody can have his own opinion but...wow so may people hate it..


Why do people hate it? To some it doesn't make sense, others dislike Obito and his fans - or it could just be apathy towards Obito as main villain. Several reasons really, but this theory's popularity has hurt it rather than helped.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> its funny how early Kishi drew obito in the manga....578 chapters ago...


yeah. Kishi is a huge master planner, meaning he plans alot if things out ahead of time. So, it's possible he also planned obito to be the final villain as well. if it was Kagami or something he would have been brought up more frequently yo make sure we remember him.

I just can't see Tobi being someone who was in just two or three panels. that's one of the reasons why the Obito theory stands out to me.

I really think the only real solid possibilities left are:

-Obito
-Izuna

We wouldn't recognize the face of anyone else, and they're the only ones who look like Tobi(Obito surpasses Izuna in this aspect). They are really the only ones that would fit. I doubt it's Izuna but hey, you never know.

Now to expose the other ones:

Kagami: Please, bitches. It's not him. He was not only introduced 200 chapters after Tobi, bit he's irrelevant to the plot. And he doesn't even look like Tobi. We saw his face once. ONCE! We are not going to freaking remember that face(Unless you're in love with the guy and stare at that one picture of his face 24/7). He has no plotholes because he has no plot. Those unexplained things about him aren't explained because he's not important! He can be whatever people want him to be because we don't know ANYTHING about him. The whole theory is a freaking fanfiction. Not a theory at all because we have pretty much nothing to build on. I just wonder who the hell came up with this in the first place. Seriously... Who took the time to just re-read that certain chapter, see a random Uchiha... and read through every single chapter after that and all the chapters with Tobi in it just to see if there were any hints of this totally irrelevant fodder Uchiha being Tobi?! WHO?! it sounds just like a joke you'd tell your friend. Of course they'll assume you're joking when you say the main villain is some random ass fodder, it's not Kagami, quit it... Seriously, you might as well just say every single Uchiha fodder you see is Tobi... That's how ridiculous this is... I can't believe people are so confident that Tobi is the most random Uchiha you could pick... And that, I believe, shuts down the Kagami theory.

Madara:     -_____-

Shisui: Please... At first glimpse you might think it's plausible, but no. When you really examine it, it makes no sense... They also have different eyeshapes, so it can't be him.

Fugaku: Totally different eyeshape. Not old enough. No motive...

Elder Son: How is he still alive? Also, it just doesn't make sense. he doesn't look anything like Tobi. He was also introduced about 200 chapters after Tobi.

Ramen Guy: Anyone who actually believes this needs to be put in a padded room...       -___-


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 23, 2012)

^^Tobi can't be izuna. Madara knows who tobi is, and clearly said that all that remained of his brother were the eyes he was using.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> ^^Tobi can't be izuna. Madara knows who tobi is, and clearly said that all that remained of his brother were the eyes he was using.


Wow. I'd forgot about that. That leaves Obito then...


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Wow. I'd forgot about that. That leaves Obito then...



Or sasuke.....from THE FUTURE


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

Tobi being Izuna would explain how he knows so much about Madara. That's the best thing this theory has. The story he told Sasuke seemed personal, even down to the arm clench. It's strange that he wasn't named in the manga. It's not a very exciting reveal though - none of the characters know him. 

I also thought Pain would be a known character after all that suspense. Not only was he new, he had six bodies, all of which are dead. Then came Nagato!  AL = Yondaime theories were way off the mark.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Yes he is not, and Tobi is not an Uchiha too..



Sigh you are slow. I wrote "if", i mean if the long haired masked guy is not Tobi (short hair). That kinda supports these who believe he is/was not the same Tobi as we see now. I myself don't know.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

*Collection of Meetings Between Tobi and Kakashi*

All the meetings between Tobi and Kakashi:









These *cannot* all be coincidences. There is obviously major tension being built between these two characters. People just don't want to accept it.


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> All the meetings between Tobi and Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I definitely agree.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> All the meetings between Tobi and Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'Don't want to accept it'? More like you're making connections that _aren't there._ Tobi of course is going to be in Kakashi's path-Kakashi is leading the team to recover Sasuke and has to stall it so Sasuke vs Itachi can continue, Kakashi is of course tyring to guard is student the last three times. There is no connection that Tobi is Obito other than the one you're desperately try to make. 

Tobi isn't Obito. Obito was crushed and his body was reduced to a literal pulp. There was absolutely no way he could survive and if Zetsu or Madara tried, all that would be left was a corpse that was completely unusable.


----------



## Matt-Uchiha (Jul 23, 2012)

Here's my theory. Not any MAJOR evidence, but nothing that contradicts anything shown.

After Madara stole his brother's eyes he awakened the EMS. Despite this power and him having Kurama he still couldn't beat Hashirama. 

He came to the conclusion that since the Sage of the Six Paths contained what would become the eyes of the Uchiha, and the body of the Senju, that the Rinnegan could be obtained by recreating this: By getting the eyes to their most powerful point and combining it with the most powerful Senju's DNA. 

Madara had implanted Hashirama's DNA into himself. The Senju DNA caused the EMS to evolve into the Rinnegan and then the two had their battle at the valley. 

Madara barely survived, and his body was badly damaged, him only surviving thanks to Hashirama's DNA. The DNA began to overtake him, similar to what we saw with Danzo. 

Madara survived for many more decades thanks to Hashirama's body. Eventually he came upon a dying Obito. He saved him by implanting some of Hashirama's DNA into him, restoring a part of his body. 

Madara, who had occasionally killed Uchiha who crossed his path when outside of Konoha, had began to collect Sharingan from those he killed, this collection eventually being passed on to Tobi. He gave two eyes to Obito. Since the eyes were not originally from Obito's body, he couldn't deactivate the Sharingan, though it didn't consume as much Chakra from an Uchiha. Since he was still a young, weak shinobi at that point, he covered one eye to reduce the amount of Chakra the eyes would use, something that would become a habit over the years. 

Obito, being the idealistic boy he was, easily listened to lies Madara told him, similar to the lies Tobi told Sasuke. He convinced the idealistic child that all the pain and suffering he and his friends went through, that everyone in the war went through could be avoided under the proper rule. Madara convinced Obito to join him and to get revenge upon Konoha and the Uchiha. 

However Obito wanted to take it a step further. He knew that Madara was simply power hungry and --similar to Naruto-- he knew that the cycle of revenge would just continue. Like Naruto he wanted to break that cycle. As Madara trained him, he became aware of the Mangekyo jutsu and the story of the Sage and his sons. Madara, had awakened and owned the Gedo statue thanks to the Rinnegan, something Obito thought he could take advantage of. 

And so Obito began to enact a plan in which the 9 Tailed Beast would be absorbed by the statue, and the statue would be used as a vessel for the 10 Tails.

Madara, who had been fighting off Hashirama's DNA, had began to been overtaken by it. He was able to remove the DNA, however it left him dying once again. The Senju DNA, which as we know contains life giving properties, had been effected by Madara's chakra and had gained consciousness. This became Zetsu. 

Without the Senju DNA, Madara's eyes had reverted back to EMS, which is why Kabuto needed to alter his body after the Edo Tensei for him to use the Rinnegan. Obito told Madara he would give his eyes to somebody with Senju DNA after he died to create a pawn to use the Rinnegan and sync with the Gedo statue. After Madara died, his eyes were given to Nagato. 

And that's that! I think that's a reasonable explanation for things!


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> ^^Tobi can't be izuna. Madara knows who tobi is, and clearly said that all that remained of his brother were the eyes he was using.



That can be in the literal sense and in the philosophical sense, if you really think about it....

All that remains of Izuna are his eyes. Uchiha giving up their eyes is like an Uchiha committing suicide. Izuna & Madara were equals before Izuna gave Madara his eyes, Izuna lost everything after that. His reputation most of all, which was already overshadowed by his older brother's clan position for example. It wouldn't have taken long for Madara's reputation (with the thanks of Izuna's eyes) would have sky rocketed and Izuna's reputation would plummet to the point where his name would be forgotten throughout history. 

Philosophically speaking, Madara considers Tobi as weak or nothing because well, lets face it. What is Izuna's name to the shinobi world compared to Madara's? Absolutely nothing.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What the hell are you talking about!? People are overcomlicating this shit. Tobi did not fight Hashirama. is that so hard to understand.


What the hell are you talking about? People overcomplicating this shit. 
 1+1 does not equal 2. Is that so hard to understand?


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 23, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> If Tobi turns out to be Obito (though I highly doubt it), then it would be logical for Kakashi to fight and defeat him. Naruto doesn't know Obito, so him fighting someone he doesn't even know will seem kinda weird.



I'm not a huge supporter of the Obito theory (I'm open to it though) but Naruto fighting Obito wouldn't be too weird. 

Since Obito was a lot like Naruto at one point. However, he became corrupted at one point and stopped believing in himself, so far as giving up on having an identity. So in many ways he'd be like a dark reflection of Naruto. 

This is all assuming Kishi goes that direction though.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Matt-Uchiha said:


> Here's my theory. Not any MAJOR evidence, but nothing that contradicts anything shown.
> 
> After Madara stole his brother's eyes he awakened the EMS. Despite this power and him having Kurama he still couldn't beat Hashirama.
> 
> ...


Wow. This is pretty good. +rep

The last part about giving Nagato the Rinnegan seems a bit off though... It's more likely that it was Madara who gave him the eyes. And I don't think it was neccesarily his eyes that gave him.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 'Don't want to accept it'? More like you're making connections that _aren't there._ Tobi of course is going to be in Kakashi's path-Kakashi is leading the team to recover Sasuke and has to stall it so Sasuke vs Itachi can continue, Kakashi is of course tyring to guard is student the last three times. There is no connection that Tobi is Obito other than the one you're desperately try to make.
> 
> Tobi isn't Obito. Obito was crushed and his body was reduced to a literal pulp. There was absolutely no way he could survive and if Zetsu or Madara tried, all that would be left was a corpse that was completely unusable.


Like I said, you are ignoring the OBVIOUS tension between them. Pretty much every time Tobi's been around Kakashi, he's done or said something that shocked him.

Your reaction when it's revealed will definitely be one of the sweetest.



Prodigy94 said:


> That can be in the literal sense and in the philosophical sense, if you really think about it....
> 
> All that remains of Izuna are his eyes. Uchiha giving up their eyes is like an Uchiha committing suicide. Izuna & Madara were equals before Izuna gave Madara his eyes, Izuna lost everything after that. His reputation most of all, which was already overshadowed by his older brother's clan position for example. It wouldn't have taken long for Madara's reputation (with the thanks of Izuna's eyes) would have sky rocketed and Izuna's reputation would plummet to the point where his name would be forgotten throughout history.
> 
> Philosophically speaking, Madara considers Tobi as weak or nothing because well, lets face it. What is Izuna's name to the shinobi world compared to Madara's? Absolutely nothing.


I don't think it was meant to be thought into that much... Nonetheless, nice job. There are just way too many confirmations of Izuna's death.





Hossaim said:


> What the hell are you talking about? People overcomplicating this shit.
> 1+1 does not equal 2. Is that so hard to understand?


Tobi never fought Hashirama. Because of you posting that thread, half the forum thinks this shit now.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 23, 2012)

I crack up at the theories that say obito can't be tobi but pitch in possibilities of shisui or fugaku or izuna being tobi when they have EVEN MORE confirmation of being dead. Two of them have ZERO eyes and one of them we were seen being stabbed and given a body of that wasn't lost in a rockslide.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I crack up at the theories that say obito can't be tobi but pitch in possibilities of shisui or fugaku or izuna being tobi when they have EVEN MORE confirmation of being dead. Two of them have ZERO eyes and one of them we were seen being stabbed and given a body of that wasn't lost in a rockslide.


Don't you just love the irony?


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't think it was meant to be thought into that much... Nonetheless, nice job. There are just way too many confirmations of Izuna's death.



Technically speaking, all theories concerning Tobi are too much thought into. 

Thanks nonetheless though


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 23, 2012)

ps to the guy who says I don't know what Im typing.


Explain to me HOW it is impossible for us to believe that Madara wasn't the one who did all those things and Tobi just took credit. 

He was making the WHOLE WORLD believe he was Madara including his accomplices. The ONLY ones who figured out he wasn't Madara was Orochimaru and Kabuto until the big reveal. 

So yes that DOES fix many of the timeline issues. If Madara did most of those things and Tobi simply took credit for them as he was making everyone believe he was Madara.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

What people don't understand is that Tobi has actually done certain things(such as Dat Salute) and said certain things that cause people to think he's obito. He actually has real, seeable connections with him. The rest just assume far too much. We don't know if Tobi was like Izuna, Kagami, Shisui, etc. in any way. The similarities between Tobi and Obito are strong suggestions that they are the same person. It's just... there. I don't know how else to explain it, really.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Wow. This is pretty good. +rep
> 
> The last part about giving Nagato the Rinnegan seems a bit off though... It's more likely that it was Madara who gave him the eyes. And I don't think it was neccesarily his eyes that gave him.Like I said, you are ignoring the OBVIOUS tension between them. Pretty much every time Tobi's been around Kakashi, he's done or said something that shocked him.
> 
> ...



Yes, he did.

It was stated pretty fucking clearly. There was a link there for you.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> So yes that DOES fix many of the timeline issues. If Madara did most of those things and Tobi simply took credit for them as he was making everyone believe he was Madara.


It does not fix that he's a liar. Most of what we know about Madara is backstory from Tobi. Fooling the alliance is one thing, but why perform an act for Sasuke? Or Konan and Pain? Itachi said his accomplice was Madara. None of that makes sense. He was even going to show Sasuke his face. What happens when he's far too young to be Madara? Fortunately, Itachi's trap saved Kishi the trouble of explaining. 200 chapters later he can make up some new shit.


----------



## NW (Jul 23, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, he did.
> 
> It was stated pretty fucking clearly. There was a link there for you.


*sigh* He said that when he was posing as MADARA. So, going by your logic, Tobi is Madara, he's dead yet alive at the same time, and his alive self doesn't look or act like his dead self.

Dat Madara.


Easley said:


> It does not fix that he's a liar. Most of what we know about Madara is backstory from Tobi. Fooling the alliance is one thing, but why perform an act for Sasuke? Or Konan and Pain? Itachi said his accomplice was Madara. None of that makes sense. He was even going to show Sasuke his face. What happens when he's far too young to be Madara? Fortunately, Itachi's trap saved Kishi the trouble of explaining. 200 chapters later he can make up some new shit.


Tobi never was intended to be Madara. Tobi's identity has been set from the start. And that identity is NOT Madara.


----------



## Easley (Jul 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi never was intended to be Madara. Tobi's identity has been set from the start. And that identity is NOT Madara.


I never said he was... I said Tobi is a liar. Nothing he says can be trusted. And how would he even know all this about Madara anyway? 

Sasuke has never seen Madara (except the VotE statue), but he surely knows that he's old, if alive. So again, why would Tobi reveal his face to Sasuke and prove he's not Madara?


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2012)

Madz got that swag that Tobi wishes he could have. Who else besides Madara shits on the Kages & belittles them without even trying 

"What kind of adult fights a child seriously?"

Nuff said' dat Madara


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> I never said he was... I said Tobi is a liar. Nothing he says can be trusted. And how would he even know all this about Madara anyway?
> 
> Sasuke has never seen Madara (except the VotE statue), but he surely knows that he's old, if alive. So again, why would Tobi reveal his face to Sasuke and prove he's not Madara?



Personally I think he was going to actually tell Sasuke who he really was, but decided against it after getting Amaterasu'd.



Prodigy94 said:


> Madz got that swag that Tobi wishes he could have. Who else besides Madara shits on the Kages & belittles them without even trying
> 
> "What kind of adult fights a child seriously?"
> 
> Nuff said' dat Madara



Yeah, but Madara's arrogance is ultimately going to be what does him in, as is the case for every villain like him.

Tobi is a lot more genre savvy than Madara.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 23, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, he did.
> 
> It was stated pretty fucking clearly. There was a link there for you.



It was also stated in the same chapter that he is addressing himself as madara..................
If you are going to pretend to be Madara, then you take credit for his deeds. Its a logical explanation.


Easley said:


> It does not fix that he's a liar. Most of what we know about Madara is backstory from Tobi. Fooling the alliance is one thing, but why perform an act for Sasuke? Or Konan and Pain? Itachi said his accomplice was Madara. None of that makes sense. He was even going to show Sasuke his face. What happens when he's far too young to be Madara? Fortunately, Itachi's trap saved Kishi the trouble of explaining. 200 chapters later he can make up some new shit.



Of course he is a liar, but he has been pretty damn accurate most of the time on history and personalitys. Most logical answer is he learned all this from Madara himself since they do have a working relationship of some sort. Most likely Master and Apprentice, which works if it is Obito. An Uchiha who wasn't part of the village would have been a likely suspect. Only Uchiha who was believed dead who we don't have a corpse of is Obito, and because he is already believed dead, and young enough to still be alive  and not some old ass man at this point, makes him a good suspect.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Yeah, but Madara's arrogance is ultimately going to be what does him in, as is the case for every villain like him.
> 
> Tobi is a lot more genre savvy than Madara.



I think we've yet to see Madara actually have a true challenge. When he recognizes it, he won't be nearly as arrogant, but I get the feeling he'd appreciate the challenge lol


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 24, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sasuke has never seen Madara (except the VotE statue), but he surely knows that he's old, if alive. So again, why would Tobi reveal his face to Sasuke and prove he's not Madara?



Actually...

Chapter 358

Chapter 358

Chapter 358

He has, thanks to Itachi's genjutsu. He even gets some of the blood from Madara plucking out Izuna's eyes on his face.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *sigh* He said that when he was posing as MADARA. So, going by your logic, Tobi is Madara, he's dead yet alive at the same time, and his alive self doesn't look or act like his dead self.
> 
> Dat Madara.Tobi never was intended to be Madara. Tobi's identity has been set from the start. And that identity is NOT Madara.



He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both knew he was not Madara, so no, he was not posing as Madara.


----------



## Easley (Jul 24, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Actually...
> 
> He has, thanks to Itachi's genjutsu. He even gets some of the blood from Madara plucking out Izuna's eyes on his face.


Yeah, I forgot it was genjutsu. Sasuke 'saw' what we did. still, he's pretty young there. What would he look like 80+ years later? 

Young Madara's eye shape/brow are an almost exact match with Tobi. I remember people comparing pics side by side, and they were identical. The shape, lines, brow, everything.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both knew he was not Madara, so no, he was not posing as Madara.



he has ALWAYS been called 'tobi' be zetsu in every panel ever addressed. and Kabuto mockingly called him 'madara' as he resurrected madara and knew he wasnt him. 
THUS, Tobi has never called himself Madara to either of those 2 that I can remember of. I may be wrong but even if I am an explanation can be given.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Easley said:


> I never said he was... I said Tobi is a liar. Nothing he says can be trusted. And how would he even know all this about Madara anyway?
> 
> Sasuke has never seen Madara (except the VotE statue), but he surely knows that he's old, if alive. So again, why would Tobi reveal his face to Sasuke and prove he's not Madara?


So he could show him his sharingan. To let Sasuke know he was an Uchiha.



Prodigy94 said:


> Madz got that swag that Tobi wishes he could have. Who else besides Madara shits on the Kages & belittles them without even trying
> 
> "What kind of adult fights a child seriously?"
> 
> Nuff said' dat Madara






Hossaim said:


> He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both knew he was not Madara, so no, he was not posing as Madara.


he was most likely being cocky to Kabuto. I wouldn't be surprised considering the way they talked to each other after Tobi shat himself when he saw the sixth coffin.

Plus, do you really think Kishi was going to have tobi say "Oh, yeah, Madara made that from cells he got during their battle."?! Really?!



Easley said:


> Yeah, I forgot it was genjutsu. Sasuke 'saw' what we did. still, he's pretty young there. What would he look like 80+ years later?
> 
> Young Madara's eye shape/brow are an almost exact match with Tobi. I remember people comparing pics side by side, and they were identical. The shape, lines, brow, everything.


Tobi's face looks more like Obito's.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## ddrotaku (Jul 24, 2012)

^^
I'm not completely against the Tobi = Obito theory (even though I think that it would be a completely head-scratch inducing "twist"), hell the last chapter even made me lean slightly more in the direction of the theory. However if his "big reveal" rests solely on the idea that Tobi lies about everything (especially to characters like Kabuto,  who he KNOWS would have known that he was lying had he been lying about fighting Hashirama so there'd be no point in wasting his breath making bold claims) then that's as good as saying that "it was all a dream" - by that I mean you'd be invalidating everything that he has ever said, and that anybody else has ever said about his character in favor of a "just kidding, none of that actually happened!" explanation, which is basically the worst way to introduce a twist in a story. 

imo his looks, and his interactions with Kakashi are the only somewhat solid indications that he could be Obito, but in the end if he turned out to be Obito what would the payoff be? It would be as good as saying that it was Rin the whole time, or that it was Inari. Obito has no real plot relevance other than the fact that he's a presumably dead Uchiha.

Edit: I should note that I'm coming at this from an outside perspective, I don't really keep up with these forums. I just came here because the recent chapter was the first one to make me actually consider the Tobi = Obito theory.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

ddrotaku said:


> ^^
> I'm not completely against the Tobi = Obito theory (even though I think that it would be a completely head-scratch inducing "twist"), hell the last chapter even made me lean slightly more in the direction of the theory. However if his "big reveal" rests solely on the idea that Tobi lies about everything (especially to characters like Kabuto,  who he KNOWS would have known that he was lying had he been lying about fighting Hashirama so there'd be no point in wasting his breath making bold claims) then that's as good as saying that "it was all a dream" - by that I mean you'd be invalidating everything that he has ever said, and that anybody else has ever said about his character in favor of a "just kidding, none of that actually happened!" explanation, which is basically the worst way to introduce a twist in a story.
> 
> imo his looks, and his interactions with Kakashi are the only somewhat solid indications that he could be Obito, but in the end if he turned out to be Obito what would the payoff be? It would be as good as saying that it was Rin the whole time, or that it was Inari. Obito has no real plot relevance other than the fact that he's a presumably dead Uchiha.
> ...


Actually, Obito has alot of plot relevance. There are alot of loose ends that still need to be tied up regarding him. Plus, he was an exact parallel to Naruto.

About the Madara lies, I see it as Obito trying hard to actually be Madara to forget his past and the events that happened(basically whatever it was that made him like this). Naruto had to struggle to prove to himself and everyone else he had an identity of his own, other than just a demon fox. And Obito wants to convince himself and everyone else that he's not himself, but someone else. Even saying he was No One when his Madara act was ruined.

I see this twist as perfect writing. It would be the best twist in the whole manga, IMO.

he fits Kishi's writing style perfectly.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Like I said, you are ignoring the OBVIOUS tension between them. Pretty much every time Tobi's been around Kakashi, he's done or said something that shocked him.
> 
> Your reaction when it's revealed will definitely be one of the sweetest.


Tension? There is no tension. And shocked him? Of course, a surviving Uchiha or whatever Tobi is having a Sharingan? 

Again, you ignore circumstances to make connections that simply don't exist. ...that's kind of what Conspiracy Theorists do.


----------



## Penance (Jul 24, 2012)

Obito incoming...


----------



## ddrotaku (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Actually, Obito has alot of plot relevance. There are alot of loose ends that still need to be tied up regarding him. Plus, he was an exact parallel to Naruto.



Just out of curiosity, what loose ends do you refer to? The only loose end that I can think of regarding the Kakashi Gaiden is Rin, who seems to be missing from the picture (has she even been mentioned since the gaiden?). I felt like Obito's story wrapped up tragically, but did not really leave any room for him to become a "a-ha!" villain, assuming that Tobi is Obito.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> About the Madara lies, I see it as Obito trying hard to actually be Madara to forget his past and the events that happened(basically whatever it was that made him like this). Naruto had to struggle to prove to himself and everyone else he had an identity of his own, other than just a demon fox. And Obito wants to convince himself and everyone else that he's not himself, but someone else. Even saying he was No One when his Madara act was ruined.


This is an interesting theory. I'm not sold, but imo this manga has had worse twists. 

I just think that "Tobi = a completely 100% dishonest character who also happens to be Obito who was a fairly good and honest character until ____" is a flimsy twist and would require A LOT of explaining - too much to make it a good payoff, again going back to that "a-ha!" moment that you're supposed to have. It would essentially turn into a Scooby Doo ending. A good mystery is one that you can piece together through breadcrumbs that are left by the writer. There just aren't many breadcrumbs leading to Obito based on what Tobi, and other characters have been saying and doing unless you completely discount everything he says about himself (yes some of his lies have been exposed, but that is not to say that EVERYTHING that he says is a lie, and that is not to say that there was not a grain of truth even in those lies), which is to say that none of the breadcrumbs matter. EDIT: Also I feel that it should not be discounted that his claim to have fought Hashirama was made in front of a character that would have known that he was lying, had he been. That alone insists that we should take what he said at face value until it is canonically dis-proven, which lends some credibility to his character.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 why do you completely and absolutely ignore the condition Obito's body was when he died? Legs and full right side crushed, then further turned into mush by the collapsing cave.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ObitoUchiha111 why do you completely and absolutely ignore the condition Obito's body was when he died? Legs and full right side crushed, then further turned into mush by the collapsing cave.


Because the second cave in never happened. Obviously he used Boulder Illusion no Jutsu to fake his death.......idiot.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ObitoUchiha111 why do you completely and absolutely ignore the condition Obito's body was when he died? Legs and full right side crushed, then further turned into mush by the collapsing cave.



why do you keep bringing this up? His body was either repaired or replaced with zetsu parts. Find something new to complain about





ddrotaku said:


> This is an interesting theory. I'm not sold, but imo this manga has had worse twists.
> 
> I just think that "Tobi = a completely 100% dishonest character who also happens to be Obito who was a fairly good and honest character until ____" is a flimsy twist and would require A LOT of explaining - too much to make it a good payoff, again going back to that "a-ha!" moment that you're supposed to have. It would essentially turn into a Scooby Doo ending. A good mystery is one that you can piece together through breadcrumbs that are left by the writer. There just aren't many breadcrumbs leading to Obito based on what Tobi, and other characters have been saying and doing unless you completely discount everything he says about himself (yes some of his lies have been exposed, but that is not to say that EVERYTHING that he says is a lie, and that is not to say that there was not a grain of truth even in those lies), which is to say that none of the breadcrumbs matter. EDIT: Also I feel that it should not be discounted that his claim to have fought Hashirama was made in front of a character that would have known that he was lying, had he been. That alone insists that we should take what he said at face value until it is canonically dis-proven, which lends some credibility to his character.




if we didn't have any bread crumbs we wouldn't have come up with this theory 5 years ago


----------



## Penance (Jul 24, 2012)

I mean, honestly, , in a world where not very many people stay dead and body parts are replaced with plant-man goo...I just wouldn't over think the status of a broken body....


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Because the second cave in never happened. Obviously he used Boulder Illusion no Jutsu to fake his death.......idiot.


Chapter 358
Chapter 358
Chapter 358

He's dead. Gone. 


son_michael said:


> why do you keep bringing this up? His body was either repaired or replaced with zetsu parts. Find something new to complain about


He's dead. Gone son_michael. He got the perfect death in the manga.

Tobi isn't Obito. Stop clinging to it.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Chapter 358
> Chapter 358
> Chapter 358
> 
> ...


We have not seen obito die, we saw him get buried by rocks and be ASSUMED dead. Get your head out of your ass and try some critical thinking.

in a manga where everyone gets resurrected and the injured get new body parts in minutes


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Chapter 358
> Chapter 358
> Chapter 358
> 
> ...




You still don't get it. In that one page, when the panel blacked out, it was hiding that Obito was making the seals for the Boulder Illusion no Jutsu. Don't you get anything?

It's either that or Madara was hiding under one of the other boulders and he saved Obito.

Seriously. What other candidate but Obito could know Kakashi and Guy on a personal level?


Tobi being Obito is perfect writing.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Chapter 358
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



I see you haven't the faintest idea of how death and the many loopholes around it function in fiction.

I'll start you off with one common idea: unless you have the corpse of the deceased, it can never be certain as to whether they are really dead.

Now get that weak shit out of here.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I'm really getting tired of your stupidity and ignorance. We have not seen obito die, we saw him get buried by rocks and be ASSUMED dead. Get your head out of your ass and try some critical thinking.


Critical thinking? There isn't much to think about! Obito DIED ON SCREEN! The last boulder crushed his face! 


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You still don't get it. In that one page, when the panel blacked out, it was hiding that Obito was making the seals for the Boulder Illusion no Jutsu. Don't you get anything?
> 
> It's either that or Madara was hiding under one of the other boulders and he saved Obito.


...or he's blacking out because of blood loss and everything. Making seals?! Obito's right arm is unusable! He cant' do one armed seals and his other eye is crushed. 

Stop reaching and ignoring these things since it blows a huge hole in Obito=Tobi. You want it to be true when nothing in the manga shows it is.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Seriously. What other candidate but Obito could know Kakashi and Guy on a personal level?
> 
> 
> Tobi being Obito is perfect writing.


...given how they clashed several times over Part II, of course Tobi knows Kakashi and Gai on a 'personal level'. And no, it isn't.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I see you haven't the faintest idea of how death and the many loopholes around it function in fiction.
> 
> I'll start you off with one common idea: unless you have the corpse of the deceased, it can never be certain as to whether they are really dead.
> 
> Now get that weak shit out of here.


Don't bother. He doesn't get it.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You want it to be true when nothing in the manga shows it is.



Hahahaha. 



> ...given how they clashed several times over Part II, of course Tobi knows Kakashi and Gai on a 'personal level'. And no, it isn't.



Yeah, a handful of encounters totally shows how Tobi could know the information to make the comments he did.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I see you haven't the faintest idea of how death and the many loopholes around it function in fiction.
> 
> I'll start you off with one common idea: unless you have the corpse of the deceased, it can never be certain as to whether they are really dead.
> 
> Now get that weak shit out of here.


Yeah, when we have a confirmed mortal wound for a character, it oh so needs to be confirmed with a body. 

...and get it? No, you guys don't get it. You want something to be true. You want a character made SOLELY to show how Kakashi got his Sharingan to become relevant again. You WANT him to be a bad guy (which ruined the entire point of Obito's character that not all Uchiha are stuck up arrogant pricks). You want all these things that simply aren't true. You make up things to make it seem Tobi is Obito even though they make ZERO sense.


----------



## Olivia (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *Seriously. What other candidate but Obito could know Kakashi and Guy on a personal level?
> 
> *
> Tobi being Obito is perfect writing.



Future Evil Sasuke. 

In the new movie, since everything in the Tsukyomi world everyone is opposite, and Tobi in that world is evil Naruto. 

But yeah, either that or Obito. Or it could be a clone of Guy.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 24, 2012)

Lol @ people acting like they know when we don't have a fucking clue.

Tobi could be anyone. He could be one of several prime suspects set up in the story so far, or he could be someone (or some*thing*) new entirely.

One needs only to take a quick glance at Danzou and how Kishimoto used to drop hints he was Tobi to see that red herrings are not off-limits. What you think you know is just what you know based on existing information; it can all go out the window in a single chapter.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Critical thinking? There isn't much to think about! Obito DIED ON SCREEN! The last boulder crushed his face!
> 
> ...or he's blacking out because of blood loss and everything. Making seals?! Obito's right arm is unusable! He cant' do one armed seals and his other eye is crushed.
> 
> ...


Tobi being Obito IS perfect writing. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto.


And, about the seals. You don't see blood coming from his arm. Maybe  the boulder didn't hurt the arm for some reason. Zetsu might have been there, jumped in the way and saved the arm. So, Obito made the seals for the Boulder Illusion no Jutsu to fake his death. Then he met Madara and got haxxed by him.

It's so obvious that Obito was trained by Jiraiya. Sage mode allowed him to survive the boulders. Orochimaru could have also trained him, and he summoned Manda to take the boulders for him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Hahahaha.


Its true and you know it.




> Yeah, a handful of encounters totally shows how Tobi could know the information to make the comments he did.


It isn't like Kakashi and Gai's pasts are widely known at this point to the ninja world at large. 

Are you trying to be difficult?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi being Obito IS perfect writing. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto.
> 
> 
> And, about the seals. You don't see blood coming from his arm. Maybe  the boulder didn't hurt the arm for some reason. Zetsu might have been there, jumped in the way and saved the arm. So, Obito made the seals for the Boulder Illusion no Jutsu to fake his death. Then he met Madara and got haxxed by him.
> ...


Are you being annoying on purpose? Obito died that day and anyone can see it. In a way, you're dishonoring his memory by trying to make him a bad guy, ObitoUchiha111, First Tsurugi, etc.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, when we have a confirmed mortal wound for a character, it oh so needs to be confirmed with a body.



In a fantastic world such as the Narutoverse it totally does.

There are a million ways Kishi could have Obito survive/get saved, many of which have been mentioned in this thread and past ones.

Obito's "death" is not a roadblock for the theory in the slightest.



> ...and get it? No, you guys don't get it. You want something to be true. You want a character made SOLELY to show how Kakashi got his Sharingan to become relevant again. You WANT him to be a bad guy (which ruined the entire point of Obito's character that not all Uchiha are stuck up arrogant pricks). You want all these things that simply aren't true. You make up things to make it seem Tobi is Obito even though they make ZERO sense.



I see a lot of assumptions about the point of Obito's character there.



Nikushimi said:


> One needs only to take a quick glance at Danzou and how Kishimoto used to drop hints he was Tobi to see that red herrings are not off-limits. What you think you know is just what you know based on existing information; it can all go out the window in a single chapter.



I can't recall any serious hints at Danzou being Tobi.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It isn't like Kakashi and Gai's pasts are widely known at this point to the ninja world at large.
> 
> Are you trying to be difficult?



Is that why both Kakashi and Guy were taken aback by Tobi's comments?



> Are you being annoying on purpose? Obito died that day and anyone can see it. In a way, you're dishonoring his memory by trying to make him a bad guy, ObitoUchiha111, First Tsurugi, etc.



OH HEAVENS, THE HORROR OF DESECRATING THE MEMORY OF A FICTIONAL CHARACTER


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> In a fantastic world such as the Narutoverse it totally does.
> 
> There are a million ways Kishi could have Obito survive/get saved, many of which have been mentioned in this thread and past ones.
> 
> Obito's "death" is not a roadblock for the theory in the slightest.


Except it is. Obito was still training under Minato when Yagura was being manipulated by Tobi. The same Tobi Kisame recognized. Obito is too short to be Tobi a few years after his death. Minato would have RECOGNIZED HIS STUDENT. Obito has no motivation to be Tobi. Tobi worked with Madara on Nagato, again, Obito wasn't born yet.




> I see a lot of assumptions about the point of Obito's character there.


Except they're not assumptions. They're facts about Obito's character. You again, are dishonoring his memory and just being annoying.



First Tsurugi said:


> Is that why both Kakashi and Guy were taken aback by Tobi's comments?


I really didn't see any 'taken aback' by Kakashi or Gai considering Tobi parroted information that is widely known about Kakashi and repeated the same statement that Gai told him when they arrived.

You're reaching and you know it.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its true and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dishonoring him? Bitch, please. He'd make an awesome villain. You're too ignorant to understand so Kishi will make you understand.

It's not known to the shinobi world however that Kakashi apparently lived a life of regret. That's something only someone close would know.

Note: My previous few posts were troll posts, in case you haven't noticed. I'm sick of people being ignorant and I decided to get some fun out of it. And it worked.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So he could show him his sharingan. To let Sasuke know he was an Uchiha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you joking?

Tobi was being cocky to Kabuto? He wasen't joking at all when he said it. 

It was made abundantly clear that Tobi fought Hashirama, accept it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Dishonoring him? Bitch, please. He'd make an awesome villain. You're too ignorant to understand so Kishi will make you understand.
> 
> It's not known to the shinobi world however that Kakashi apparently lived a life of regret. That's something only someone close would know.
> 
> Note: My previous few posts were troll posts, in case you haven't noticed. I'm sick of people being ignorant and I decided to get some fun out of it. And it worked.


Except it kind of is. Especially someone who does so much damn research about people like Tobi. 

What would you do if Tobi isn't Obito?


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12, you, like First Tsurugi said, are making alot of assumptions about Obito's character. Looking at Kishi's writing style, at previous examples, at the japanese mythology Kishi bases his manga on, Obito seems like more than just a character for Kakashi'd growth.


----------



## ddrotaku (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> if we didn't have any bread crumbs we wouldn't have come up with this theory 5 years ago


Right, but so far the only breadcrumbs that I've seen brought up are his looks (which honestly could fit like 1/3rd of Naruto characters considering Kishimoto's art style), and his vague winking and nodding to Kakashi. Every other fact that has not been canonically disproven points to him being somebody quite a bit older than Obito would have to be.

Also I remember the theory back then was that they had the same hair (which was the same line of logic for Pein (AL) = Minato, which again applies to like 1/3rd of Naruto charcters).

All I'm asking for are more canonical breadcrumbs that point to Tobi = Obito, not long-winded theories that attempt to substitute for breadcrumbs. I think that's a fair thing to ask for, considering that it seems that his reveal will be coming up soon, and the evidence should be in the pages of the manga by now. I'm open to the idea that he could be Obito, it's just that at this point it seems that either Kishimoto has to completely discredit nearly everything Tobi has said about himself, reducing the character little more than a bad plot device, or he's going to go the route of convoluted time travel explanation (given his Hashirama reference, and the evidence that he was closely involved with Madara) to fill in the gaps for why a character with little to no hinted motive for devoting his life to turning the world into mindless zombies would want to do such a thing.

I also just don't see the payoff for a character that we barely know turning out to be the final villain all along.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it is. Obito was still training under Minato when Yagura was being manipulated by Tobi.



That happened after Tobi summoned the Kyuubi in Konoha.

Learn to timeline.



> The same Tobi Kisame recognized. Obito is too short to be Tobi a few years after his death. Minato would have RECOGNIZED HIS STUDENT. Obito has no motivation to be Tobi. Tobi worked with Madara on Nagato, again, Obito wasn't born yet.



Blah blah blah more shit that I've heard a million times.

Do you have anything new to add or are you just going to rehash old arguments?



> Except they're not assumptions. They're facts about Obito's character. You again, are dishonoring his memory and just being annoying.



What's with this obsession with honor?

They're fictional characters, who cares?

I think Tobi being Obito would be interesting. That is all there is to it.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Are you joking?
> 
> Tobi was being cocky to Kabuto? He wasen't joking at all when he said it.
> 
> It was made abundantly clear that Tobi fought Hashirama, accept it.



lol what? Tobi didn't fight hashirama, tobi only said that because he wants people to think he's Madara. madara fought Hashriama



Are you people serious?


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Are you joking?
> 
> Tobi was being cocky to Kabuto? He wasen't joking at all when he said it.
> 
> It was made abundantly clear that Tobi fought Hashirama, accept it.


I'm not even going to reply to you an more. I've already given enough evidence to disprove your claim. In fact, i have more. But I shouldn't need to bring it up.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it kind of is. Especially someone who does so much damn research about people like Tobi.
> 
> What would you do if Tobi isn't Obito?


Don't have to worry about that.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I really didn't see any 'taken aback' by Kakashi or Gai considering Tobi parroted information that is widely known about Kakashi and repeated the same statement that Gai told him when they arrived.
> 
> You're reaching and you know it.



So what were the "...!" reactions if not shock?

And why did Guy suddenly ask Tobi who he was again? Clearly his statements made him suspicious.

You're the one who's reaching by implying those moments had no significance.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That happened after Tobi summoned the Kyuubi in Konoha.
> 
> Learn to timeline.


You have proof of that? 




> Blah blah blah more shit that I've heard a million times.
> 
> Do you have anything new to add or are you just going to rehash old arguments?


Except these arguments haven't been countered by your side. Or just ignored.


What's with this obsession with honor?

They're fictional characters, who cares?

I think Tobi being Obito would be interesting. That is all there is to it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> lol what? Tobi didn't fight hashirama, tobi only said that because he wants people to think he's Madara. madara fought Hashriama
> 
> 
> 
> Are you people serious?



He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both of them knew he was not Madara. Who the fuck was he trying to convince?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm not even going to reply to you an more. I've already given enough evidence to disprove your claim. In fact, i have more. But I shouldn't need to bring it up.
> 
> I don't have to worry about that cuz he is. It's not dishonoring Obito's character at all.



You have actually not given ANY evidence at all, only wild speculation. I, meanwhile, have given a link that proves Tobi fought Hashirama.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You have proof of that?



The longer hair, duh.



> Except these arguments haven't been countered by your side. Or just ignored.



They've all been addressed. If you were more familiar with these discussions you'd probably know that.



Hossaim said:


> He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both of them knew he was not Madara. Who the fuck was he trying to convince?



The audience.



> You have actually not given ANY evidence at all, only wild speculation. I, meanwhile, have given a link that proves Tobi fought Hashirama.



You have given a link that proves that Tobi says he fought Hashirama.

Coincidentally, that statement is the only thing that suggests such an occurrence.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Okay, SuperSaiyaMan12, who do _you_ think Tobi is anyway?



Hossaim said:


> He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both of them knew he was not Madara. Who the fuck was he trying to convince?
> 
> 
> 
> You have actually not given ANY evidence at all, only wild speculation. I, meanwhile, have given a link that proves Tobi fought Hashirama.


All the evidence I need to know that Tobi didn't fight Hashirama is that Tobi is alive. Tobi got pwned by Minato. Hashirama was a Rikuodu level beast. He would've killed Tobi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, SuperSaiyaMan12, who do _you_ think Tobi is anyway?


He's obviously very old, older than Kakashi and Gai's generation. As well as well traveled. If I were to suspect, it could be Madara's son, his 'split' clone (like Mu's technique), or Madara's own experiment (which is why he refers to himself as No One).


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The longer hair, duh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you claim Obito is aware he is in a manga and therefore attempted to convince his readers he was Madara.

I don't get you're second part, the link makes it very clear that Tobi fought Madara.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> He was with Kabtuo and Zetsu, both of them knew he was not Madara. Who the fuck was he trying to convince?



its a delusion thing. he's trying to forget he is who he is and convince himself he is Madara. Or make Kabuto think he rally is Madara. Also the dude is a damn liar.

otherwise he's a damn clone and that would be the WORST writing EVER, coupled alongside the worst reveal ever.

that's why he can't be another Madara.


----------



## insane111 (Jul 24, 2012)

Has anyone actually given a decent explanation as to why Kisame recognized the long and short haired Tobi as the same person? Seems like a pretty big hole.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> So you claim Obito is aware he is in a manga and therefore attempted to convince his readers he was Madara.



No, I'm claiming Kishi had to have Tobi continue to speak as though he was Madara to avoid ruining the twist he had set up.

Sloppy writing but w/e.



> I don't get you're second part, the link makes it very clear that Tobi fought Madara.



No it doesn't, as Tobi has repeatedly lied about feats that he is not responsible for. His word on this matter cannot be trusted.



insane111 said:


> Has anyone actually given a half decent explanation as to why Kisame recognized the long and shrot haired Tobi as the same person? Seems like a pretty big hole.



Because they are the same person?

It's a pretty simple explanation.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He's obviously very old, older than Kakashi and Gai's generation. As well as well traveled. If I were to suspect, it could be Madara's son, his 'split' clone (like Mu's technique), or Madara's own experiment (which is why he refers to himself as No One).



all of which the audience could give a shit less about. THAT'L SELL SOME VOLUMES!


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> all of which the audience could give a shit less about. THAT'L SELL SOME VOLUMES!


You do know that most of the audience _doesn't even know who Obito is, Right?_


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know that most of the audience _doesn't even know who Obito is, Right?_



Of course they do, he has an entire side story. There was even a point where kakashi visited his grave and its understood that kakashi's sharingan is his.

not to mention kishi went out fo his way to make obito exactly like Naruto so that will leave an impression as well.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> All the evidence I need to know that Tobi didn't fight Hashirama is that Tobi is alive. Tobi got pwned by Minato. Hashirama was a Rikuodu level beast. He would've killed Tobi.



All the evidence I need to know that Sakura never fought Sasori is that Sakura is still alive.

Tobi was rushed against Minato because his control over the Kyuubi had limited time. In another situation Tobi would never have rushed at Minato like a fucking idiot. 




insane111 said:


> Has anyone actually given a decent explanation as to why Kisame recognized the long and short haired Tobi as the same person? Seems like a pretty big hole in the Obito theory.



Because they are the same person....




son_michael said:


> its a delusion thing. he's trying to forget he is who he is and convince himself he is Madara. Or make Kabuto think he rally is Madara. Also the dude is a damn liar.
> 
> otherwise he's a damn clone and that would be the WORST writing EVER, coupled alongside the worst reveal ever.
> 
> that's why he can't be another Madara.



He is trying to convince himself he is Madara even tough he saw less than a minute previously he was not Madara. 

Right.....


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know that most of the audience _doesn't even know who Obito is, Right?_



Of course the audience knows who he is.

Kakashi mentions him plenty.

Obito is more relevant than 90% of the candidates to be Tobi, such as Izuna 'Never Named in the Manga' Uchiha and Kagami 'One Panel Wonder' Uchiha.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Of course they do, he has an entire side story. There was even a point where kakashi visited his grave and its understood that kakashi's sharingan is his.


An entire side story which is over 450 chapters ago. Which was a Kakashi Gaiden. You honestly expect the current reader base in Japan, 12-15 year old boys who probably haven't read Part I and started off at Part II would recognize Obito at all?



First Tsurugi said:


> Of course the audience knows who he is.
> 
> Kakashi mentions him plenty.
> 
> Obito is more relevant than 90% of the candidates to be Tobi, such as Izuna 'Never Named in the Manga' Uchiha and Kagami 'One Panel Wonder' Uchiha.


...when was the last time Kakashi mentioned him in the past say, 200 chapters? 300?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> An entire side story which is over 450 chapters ago. Which was a Kakashi Gaiden. You honestly expect the current reader base in Japan, 12-15 year old boys who probably haven't read Part I and started off at Part II would recognize Obito at all?



If they can still remember the Sound 4, they'll remember Obito.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He's obviously very old, older than Kakashi and Gai's generation. As well as well traveled. If I were to suspect, it could be Madara's son, his 'split' clone (like Mu's technique), or Madara's own experiment (which is why he refers to himself as No One).


So, let me get this straight, you say obito is bad writing, and you come out with this?



Hossaim said:


> So you claim Obito is aware he is in a manga and therefore attempted to convince his readers he was Madara.
> 
> I don't get you're second part, the link makes it very clear that Tobi fought Madara.






son_michael said:


> its a delusion thing. he's trying to forget he is who he is and convince himself he is Madara. Or make Kabuto think he rally is Madara. Also the dude is a damn liar.
> 
> otherwise he's a damn clone and that would be the WORST writing EVER, coupled alongside the worst reveal ever.
> 
> that's why he can't be another Madara.


Exactly. People need to remember this.



insane111 said:


> Has anyone actually given a decent explanation as to why Kisame recognized the long and short haired Tobi as the same person? Seems like a pretty big hole.


They're the same person?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know that most of the audience _doesn't even know who Obito is, Right?_


.........okay now you're just getting desperate. Obito is the Tobi candidate who is the MOST likely to be recognized. I'm sure everyone can remember obito. Stop deluding yourself.


----------



## insane111 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Because they are the same person?
> 
> It's a pretty simple explanation.



Tell that to the people who think it's the real Madara, they'll deny it up and down without giving an explanation.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...when was the last time Kakashi mentioned him in the past say, 200 chapters? 300?



The Pain Invasion arc when he "died~", which was ~169 chapters ago.



insane111 said:


> Tell that to the people who think it's the real Madara, they'll deny it up and down without giving an explanation.



It is best not to pay those people any mind.

They make things much more complicated than they need to be.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

insane111 said:


> Tell that to the people who think it's the real Madara, they'll deny it up and down without giving an explanation.



Some people are too stubborn to accept the truth.


----------



## Kali95 (Jul 24, 2012)

if you admit that the long haired man is also Tobi, that automatically makes the Obito theory impossible because it has been proven that Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza were all children at that time.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If they can still remember the Sound 4, they'll remember Obito.


Given how Kishimoto has to research his OWN MANGA to remember characters...


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, let me get this straight, you say obito is bad writing, and you come out with this?


Its what makes the most sense given the information available. 




> .........okay now you're just getting desperate. Obito is the Tobi candidate who is the MOST likely to be recognized. I'm sure everyone can remember obito. Stop deluding yourself.


Again, you expect a character who literally hasn't been mentioned in 400 chapters to be the final villain?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given how Kishimoto has to research his OWN MANGA to remember characters...



You don't have to "remember" anything if it was planned that way from the beginning.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, you expect a character who literally hasn't been mentioned in 400 chapters to be the final villain?


Um, what? Gaiden was less than 400 chapters ago. And so was the invasion of Pain arc.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Speaking of fake-out deaths I wonder if Obito "died~" and ended up having a fire-side conversation with the big man Madara himself.

Wouldn't that be hilarious.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You don't have to "remember" anything if it was planned that way from the beginning.


...remember all those breaks Kishimoto took for research, First Tsurugi? And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto is starting to make things up as he goes along.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> If you admit that the long haired man is also Tobi, that automatically makes the Obito theory impossible.



No, Obito gained the ability to teleport, grew at least 2 feet.  learned to use chakra chains, gained the ability to control the Kyuubi, and was justified to say "You have no idea how long iv waited for this moment" in about a year.

Obviously.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...remember all those breaks Kishimoto took for research, First Tsurugi? And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto is starting to make things up as he goes along.



I could totally believe that he did that for Kabuto, but not for Tobi.

If Tobi is Obito, that means he planned this from the very beginning.



Kali95 said:


> if you admit that the long haired man is also Tobi, that automatically makes the Obito theory impossible because it has been proven that Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza were all children at that time.



Yagura was a kid too, or did you overlook that?


----------



## Easley (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> otherwise he's a damn clone and that would be the WORST writing EVER, coupled alongside the worst reveal ever.
> 
> that's why he can't be another Madara.


I don't think Tobi's a clone in the traditional sense, but I can imagine him being part Madara, part Hashirama. We know he's likely to have his 'face' somewhere. Why not actually on his head? Being composed of Zetsu goo is also mysterious - maybe he really was created? He replaces limbs like it's second nature.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I could totally believe that he did that for Kabuto, but not for Tobi.
> 
> If Tobi is Obito, that means he planned this from the very beginning.


Heh, you do know how often in fiction that doesn't work right? Heard of the whole Monarch fiasco in DC?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Heh, you do know how often in fiction that doesn't work right? Heard of the whole Monarch fiasco in DC?



That was when they were hyping the secret identity of some guy and fans correctly guessed who it was going to be and so they had to change it on the fly and it turned out to be someone really random and shitty right?

Yeah, I can just about guarantee that's not what's going on here.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...remember all those breaks Kishimoto took for research, First Tsurugi? And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto is starting to make things up as he goes along.


No. Kishi has stated at the beginning of part 2 that he already had the ending planned.





Hossaim said:


> No, Obito gained the ability to teleport, grew at least 2 feet.  learned to use chakra chains, gained the ability to control the Kyuubi, and was justified to say "You have no idea how long iv waited for this moment" in about a year.
> 
> Obviously.


Exactly.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That was when they were hyping the secret identity of some guy and fans correctly guessed who it was going to be and so they had to change it on the fly and it turned out to be someone really random and shitty right?
> 
> Yeah, I can just about guarantee that's not what's going on here.


Except it kind of can, and props for recognizing the reference. Or, how aobut the various Friends in _20th Century Boys_ (Kishimoto even references the iconic mask in Tobi's new one):


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

*sigh* Guess I've got to post my blog entry on this here:



> Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.
> 
> All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.
> 
> ...


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> No, Obito gained the ability to teleport, grew at least 2 feet.  learned to use chakra chains, gained the ability to control the Kyuubi, and was justified to say "You have no idea how long iv waited for this moment" in about a year.
> 
> Obviously.



1. if Kakashi gained it then obito can gain it. The theory is obito's eye is the inverse of kakashi's eye. kakashi uses dimensions offensively where has tobi uses them defensively.

2. not hard to learn chakra chains 

3. either this can be explained with all sharingans have the potential to control kyuubi or obito could have gotten something from Madara such as training or Madara's chakra

4. Obito deluding himself into thinking he's Madara again OR trying to make kushina think that he's madara. Or hell maybe he really does think he's madara but in actuality he's not LOL


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it kind of can, and props for recognizing the reference. Or, how aobut the various Friends in _20th Century Boys_ (Kishimoto even references the iconic mask in Tobi's new one):



I have deliberately avoided spoiling myself about 20th Century Boys since it's on my sizable manga backlog.

But from what I remember about a spoiler I accidentally read that I have since purged from my memory it was actually someone completely mundane.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it kind of can, and props for recognizing the reference. Or, how aobut the various Friends in _20th Century Boys_ (Kishimoto even references the iconic mask in Tobi's new one):


Kishi had stated before tobi was introduced that he had the ending for the manga set. he's not changing anything. And Tobi's identity has been set from the start. Kishi's not the type of writer to just change shit cuz the fans predict it.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> 1. if Kakashi gained it then obito can gain it. The theory is obito's eye is the inverse of kakashi's eye. kakashi uses dimensions offensively where has tobi uses them defensively.
> 
> 2. not hard to learn chakra chains
> 
> ...



Kakashi gained it in 17 years, not 1.

2 ok points

If your theory involves characters lying to themselves, then your theory is stupid.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> If your *manga* involves characters lying to themselves, then your *manga* is stupid.



Fixed and unfortunately quite likely.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kishi had stated before tobi was introduced that he had the ending for the manga set. he's not changing anything. And Tobi's identity has been set from the start. Kishi's not the type of writer to just change shit cuz the fans predict it.


Except my point is its possible. Again, why introduce a character created solely for the reason why Kakashi had his Sharingan to become a villain?


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Fixed and unfortunately quite likely.



Not gonna lie, I lold.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except my point is its possible. Again, why introduce a character created solely for the reason why Kakashi had his Sharingan to become a villain?



Because that character wasn't actually created solely for that purpose.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except my point is its possible. Again, why introduce a character created solely for the reason why Kakashi had his Sharingan to become a villain?


No, your point is not possible. I've just told you why. Also, how do you know that obito's character was just to explain how Kakashi got his sharingan?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Yagura was a kid too, or did you overlook that?



Nah, he says here that he's an adult. He gets pissed when Naruto says he died young.

Link removed

Anyways, evidence does indeed point to Obito but, it just seems too obvious, even for Kishi. I mean, not even Yondaime being Naruto's father was this obvious.

 I'm still taking everything that happens with a grain of salt.


----------



## Easley (Jul 24, 2012)

"Do you have *any* idea how long I've waited for this moment?"

If I read this line with no preconceived notions, I'd think he meant a _very_ long time indeed.

Tobi lying about that would really be going too far.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

Easley said:


> "Do you have *any* idea how long I've waited for this moment?"
> 
> If I read this line with no preconceived notions, I'd think he meant a _very_ long time indeed.
> 
> Tobi lying about that would really be going too far.



But we know he's a liar and we know the real Madara exist at the same time he does. So either you believe the retarded clone theory where no fan gives a shit and the reveal is anti climatic or you believe that he's either lying to fool those around him or fool himself.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Nah, he says here that he's an adult. He gets pissed when Naruto says he died young.
> 
> Link removed



I am pretty sure that was meant as a joke, kinda like when a teenager insists that they're a mature adult.



Easley said:


> "Do you have *any* idea how long I've waited for this moment?"
> 
> If I read this line with no preconceived notions, I'd think he meant a _very_ long time indeed.
> 
> Tobi lying about that would really be going too far.



Why? It's not like he's never lied about other things before.

And who knows, perhaps there is some explanation behind it.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Why? It's not like he's never lied about other things before.
> 
> And who knows, perhaps there is some explanation behind it.



There is an explanation.

Tobi is not Obito. 

Honestly, after all the hinting that Tobi has been around since Madara's time, it would be shity witting if he turns out to be Obito.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, your point is not possible. I've just told you why. Also, how do you know that obito's character was just to explain how Kakashi got his sharingan?


...title of the damn arc being: Kakashi Gaiden isn't a clue?


----------



## Easley (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> But we know he's a liar and we know the real Madara exist at the same time he does. So either you believe the retarded clone theory where no fan gives a shit and the reveal is anti climatic or you believe that he's either lying to fool those around him or fool himself.


Both options are pretty crap, but I can't stand characters that lie all the time. What it really means is that the author is bullshitting his own readers.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 24, 2012)

Oh, how do you explain Kurama _recognizing_ Tobi when he took control of him? I doubt he even knew Obito existed.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, how do you explain Kurama _recognizing_ Tobi when he took control of him? I doubt he even knew Obito existed.



When Madara summoned Kurama when training with Obito. 

Because Madara could summon it even tough it was in a current Jinchuriki

and Madara decided to not summon it on his own and attack Konoha with that ability. 

Obviously.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> There is an explanation.
> 
> Tobi is not Obito.
> 
> Honestly, after all the hinting that Tobi has been around since Madara's time, it would be shity witting if he turns out to be Obito.



What hinting?

Tobi has never once appeared earlier than sixteen years ago in the manga chronologically, and nearly everything he knows about history comes from the Uchiha tablet.

The only thing that suggests he might be somewhat old is Madara's comments which presumably refer to him, but we don't know exactly what their connection is.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...title of the damn arc being: Kakashi Gaiden isn't a clue?



This manga is called Naruto, but plenty of characters exist for reasons completely unrelated to the main character.



Easley said:


> Both options are pretty crap, but I can't stand characters that lie all the time. What it really means is that the author is bullshitting his own readers.



I agree, but I'll withhold judgement until an explanation is presented.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> What hinting?
> 
> Tobi has never once appeared earlier than sixteen years ago in the manga chronologically, and nearly everything he knows about history comes from the Uchiha tablet.
> 
> ...


Also the "Do you have any idea how long iv waited for this moment?"

As well as the fact that he fought with Hashirama.

Not to mention the fact he knew the kyuubi,


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, how do you explain Kurama _recognizing_ Tobi when he took control of him? I doubt he even knew Obito existed.



Well first of all while Kurama recognized Tobi he did not identify him as Madara, so that was clearly meant to hint to Tobi being Madara while being vague enough that it would still fit the later twist reveal.

I believe it was either a case of mistaken identity, where Kurama mistook Tobi as Madara like he did with Sasuke, or he did really recognize him as Obito, in which case he would have met him through Kushina interacting with her boyfriend/husband's students.



Hossaim said:


> Also the "Do you have any idea how long iv waited for this moment?"



Yes, we've already noted that is one of the only things suggesting excessive age.



> As well as the fact that he fought with Hashirama.



We have also already addressed that he only claimed this because "shit writing~".



> Not to mention the fact he knew the kyuubi,



Is this supposed to be impressive? Everyone knows about Kyuubi's legend.

If anything, the fact that he doesn't know about Kurama's name or that he even has one illustrates a lack of knowledge about it.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Yes, we've already noted that is one of the only things suggesting excessive age.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean he knew the Kyuubi personally, the Kyuubi knew who he was when he was summoned.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> I mean he knew the Kyuubi personally, the Kyuubi knew who he was when he was summoned.



Does he?

Kurama never identified who he was, and he even calls him "The Masked Man" like everyone else in recent chapters.


----------



## frenchmax (Jul 24, 2012)

According to another thread about tobi' s third hole and considering tobi is someone we all know, I can only come to the conclusion that tobi is:


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

> How old is Nagato?
> 
> Jiraiya was 54 years old, when he died.
> 
> ...





> As we understand from Madara's speech, he gave his eyes to Nagato and died. Because he told that he died after he obtained rinnegan.
> 
> Lets check when we see Nagato with rinnegan first? Before he met with Yahiko and Nagato... So let's consider that he was around 8-9-10 years old.
> 
> That means Madara had to give his eyes to Nagato at maximum when Nagato was child(! I'm saying maximum because Nagato awaken rinnegan when he was 9-10, Madara might have given his eyes even before so long than that time)





> And finally, Madara is talking about a plan made by both Madara and the other one which you're telling that he's Obito.
> 
> Now, we have to come back to the current time. Naruto is now 16-17 years old and Kakashi is 30-31, so Obito... And Jiraiya was 54....
> 
> ...



Lets come back to the reality;

Will we see Obito?

Yes, possibly

Will we see him as Madara's partner? 

Hell it's not possible... At best possibility(I'm saying best possibility because I tried toconsider Nagato and Jiraiya as old as possible when I calculate their ages) He was a baby when Madara planned all this things...

Then how can we see him?

As a puppet...

*So, seing his face behind the mask won't be our answer.*


----------



## 9thw0nder (Jul 24, 2012)

Isn't obito a border line fodder character?  Obito just doesn't deserve to be the final villain imo. Isn't he the only decent uchiha? What is his motivation? Why would he want to take over the world? Why would the uchiha's saving grace be the main villain in the Manga.  That shit would be so lol worthy. I just can't see such an important character being the main villain.  If obito is tobi I think ten ten should be the next rikodou.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> if you admit that the long haired man is also Tobi, that automatically makes the Obito theory impossible because it has been proven that Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza were all children at that time.



Ummmm no, loo at kisames age, he was around 18, he is barely older than kakashi and and Zabuxa. Their meeting took place after kyuubi attack


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 24, 2012)

9thw0nder said:


> Isn't obito a border line fodder character?  Obito just doesn't deserve to be the final villain imo. Isn't he the only decent uchiha? What is his motivation? Why would he want to take over the world? Why would the uchiha's saving grace be the main villain in the Manga.  That shit would be so lol worthy. I just can't see such an important character being the main villain.  If obito is tobi I think ten ten should be the next rikodou.



Once Obito awakened his Sharingan he appeared to be on Kakashi's jounin level.  And you do remember the main character was horrible and yet is almost the next rikodou :amazed  

Tobi doesn't want to take over the world.  He thinks the world is miserable and wants everyone to be in genjutsu to have real peace at any cost.  

Of course his motivation could be having rocks dropped on him and nearly dying making him hate war, Rin's mysterous death.  It could be anything.  

Kurama also gave Sasuke a similar response when he puts his hand on his face in Naruto's mind as far as the recognizing Tobi.  

LikeNaruto


----------



## jacamo (Jul 24, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> if you admit that the long haired man is also Tobi, that automatically makes the Obito theory impossible because it has been proven that Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza were all children at that time.





Hossaim said:


> No, Obito gained the ability to teleport, grew at least 2 feet.  learned to use chakra chains, gained the ability to control the Kyuubi, and was justified to say "You have no idea how long iv waited for this moment" in about a year.
> 
> Obviously.







SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, how do you explain Kurama _recognizing_ Tobi when he took control of him? I doubt he even knew Obito existed.





Hossaim said:


> When Madara summoned Kurama when training with Obito.
> 
> Because Madara could summon it even tough it was in a current Jinchuriki
> 
> ...



lol.... im sure you can pick up on the sarcasm

its pretty simple, Tobi cant be Obito because of the plotholes


----------



## frenchmax (Jul 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Ummmm no, loo at kisames age, he was around 18, he is barely older than kakashi and and Zabuxa. Their meeting took place after kyuubi attack



 I think kisame is older than kakashi since he said to kakashi "you fought that zabuza brat" I agree to kakashi beeing about as old as zabuza


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 24, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> I think kisame is older than kakashi since he said to kakashi "you fought that zabuza brat" I agree to kakashi beeing about as old as zabuza



Kisime is 32.  Zabuza, Kakashi, Guy, Obito 30.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> There is an explanation.
> 
> Tobi is not Obito.
> 
> Honestly, after all the hinting that Tobi has been around since Madara's time, it would be shity witting if he turns out to be Obito.


How has he been hinted? If I recall, there is only one line that only slightly hints that he is of old age.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...title of the damn arc being: Kakashi Gaiden isn't a clue?


So?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, how do you explain Kurama _recognizing_ Tobi when he took control of him? I doubt he even knew Obito existed.


Most likely saw him from inside Kushina. Not that hard to get. I don't see why people use this as an argument.



9thw0nder said:


> Isn't obito a border line fodder character?  Obito just doesn't deserve to be the final villain imo. Isn't he the only decent uchiha? What is his motivation? Why would he want to take over the world? Why would the uchiha's saving grace be the main villain in the Manga.  That shit would be so lol worthy. I just can't see such an important character being the main villain.  If obito is tobi I think ten ten should be the next rikodou.


No, an evil obito would make a great villain. Seeing as how Tobi said "All Uchihas are destined for hatred" this would fit in perfectly with that line. He's very relevant to the story and his power skyrocketed once he awakened his 2 TOMOED sharingan and used it skillfully upon first awakening it. he is by no means fodder. In fact, Obito is the only Tobi candidate that WOULDN'T be "lol worthy", because he's actually appeared in more than three panels.

Owned.



jacamo said:


> lol.... im sure you can pick up on the sarcasm
> 
> its pretty simple, Tobi cant be Obito because of the plotholes


What is with you and your plothole fetish. Every time you come here. Plotholes, plotholes, plotholes... Just try something new for a change. Half of the things you listed aren't even plotholes either.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 24, 2012)

If Kyuubi knew Tobi's identity, _wouldn't he tell Naruto?_


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 24, 2012)

The Kyuubi might not know who the masked man is, but that doesn't really mean he hasn't encountered him before, does it? 

The way he looks at Tobi when he's about to break the seal and says "You...!" kinda implies that they've met in the past, and we all know that he knows that Madara and the masked man are two different people entirely. 

The Kyuubi was sealed inside Kushina since she was a child, so he couldn't have seen him between that time and the time Naruto was born. It had to have been before that, and then it'd have to be before Mito sealed him inside herself too, since right after he came out of Mito he was put into Kushina, and Mito never left the village, and Kushina has never seen Tobi before.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> The Kyuubi might not know who the masked man is, but that doesn't really mean he hasn't encountered him before, does it?
> 
> The way he looks at Tobi when he's about to break the seal and says "You...!" kinda implies that they've met in the past, and we all know that he knows that Madara and the masked man are two different people entirely.
> 
> The Kyuubi was sealed inside Kushina since she was a child, so he couldn't have seen him between that time and the time Naruto was born. It had to have been before that, and then it'd have to be before Mito sealed him inside herself too, since right after he came out of Mito he was put into Kushina, and Mito never left the village, and Kushina has never seen Tobi before.



Kyuubi sees veryning the jinchuuriki sees. If was in kushina could have seen obits since she must have been with minato at some pint when he trained them. Kakashi knew her ...... So recognized from that


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 24, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> The Kyuubi might not know who the masked man is, but that doesn't really mean he hasn't encountered him before, does it?
> 
> The way he looks at Tobi when he's about to break the seal and says "You...!" kinda implies that they've met in the past, and we all know that he knows that Madara and the masked man are two different people entirely.



Then he'd tell Naruto that he's met the guy before.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Kyuubi sees veryning the jinchuuriki sees. If was in kushina could have seen obits since she must have been with minato at some pint when he trained them. Kakashi knew her ...... So recognized from that


Except Kurama doesn't know who's beneath the mask. If he recognized him as Obito then why does he refer to him as "the masked bastard"?

shoulder


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

The fact that people still believe in the Kagami theory makes me lol every time.

Also, to Menacing Eyes: Like Tobitobi said last thread, Kurama likely just recognized the ability to control him. Or Obito's chakra had become darker and reminiscent of Madara.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 24, 2012)

I just realised its like Assassins Vs Templars...


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The fact that people still believe in the Kagami theory makes me lol every time.
> 
> Also, to Menacing Eyes: Like Tobitobi said last thread, Kurama likely just recognized the ability to control him. Or Obito's chakra had become darker and reminiscent of Madara.



Since Obito is 30 years old, how do you explain a plan made by him and Madara before 40 years ago? 

Tobi is physically Obito but not mentally, he had to be born 20 years earlier to be mentally Tobi.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Since Obito is 30 years old, how do you explain a plan made by him and Madara before 40 years ago?
> 
> Tobi is physically Obito but not mentally, he had to be born 20 years earlier to be mentally Tobi.



These mind-body theories are so ridiculous they are not even worth discussing.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Since Obito is 30 years old, how do you explain a plan made by him and Madara before 40 years ago?
> 
> Tobi is physically Obito but not mentally, he had to be born 20 years earlier to be mentally Tobi.


What do you mean? There is NO confirmation whatsoever on when they formed the plan together.





Hossaim said:


> These mind-body theories are so ridiculous they are not even worth discussing.


What's so ridiculous about Tobi being an actual person's soul in his own body?

When people start calling _that_ ridiculous, you know they've sunk.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What do you mean? There is NO confirmation whatsoever on when they formed the plan together.What's so ridiculous about Tobi being an actual person's soul in his own body?
> 
> When people start calling _that_ ridiculous, you know they've sunk.



Did you legit type that and not think it ridiculous?

The day people cal the theory that flying magical unicorns exist and infact run the universe under the disguise of the FCC is the day you know they've sunk.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Did you legit type that and not think it ridiculous?
> 
> The day people cal the theory that flying magical unicorns exist and infact run the universe under the disguise of the FCC is the day you know they've sunk.


What the hell does what you've just said have to do with anything? 

The only thing that's ridiculous is that you ACTUALLY think TOBI fought HASHIRAMA. It didn't happen. Get over it.

And who the hell would have alive at that time and be able to fight him anyway? Izuna? please, he's blind. 16 year old one panel fodder Kagami?


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Also, Tobi's arms were pretty damn young when he fought Minato. Just saying.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What the hell does what you've just said have to do with anything?
> 
> The only thing that's ridiculous is that you ACTUALLY think TOBI fought HASHIRAMA. It didn't happen. Get over it.
> 
> And who the hell would have alive at that time and be able to fight him anyway? Izuna? please, he's blind. 16 year old one panel fodder Kagami?



Yes, Izuna was blind, because it is obviously completely impossible to get new eyes in this series. 

Proof that anyone besides Dan knew any sort of spitirtual jutsu: Nonexsistent

Proof Tobi fought Hashirama: It's there.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Since Obito is 30 years old, how do you explain a plan made by him and Madara before 40 years ago?
> 
> Tobi is physically Obito but not mentally, he had to be born 20 years earlier to be mentally Tobi.



Why would someone take Obito's beat up body?

Ok listen to my fan fiction.  A theory is that Tobi is more on the back end of a plan.  A Madara subordinate(s) took Obito in to become part of the plan to use Nagato to resurrect Madara and execute Moon's Eye plan.  Rin was likely murdered in some tragic way that blames Kohona and/or Uchiha while Obito recovering to push him over the edge.   He awakens his MS ability to teleport and phase.  He's given Zetsu parts to replace damage ones.  

He is taught history of Madara and reads Uchiha tablet to control Kurama.  He's sent on a mission fueled by revenge to get Kurama as Naruto is born.  He fails and rejected Madara subordinate. Uchiha night he kills said person along with Itachi and takes on Madara's personality and mantle.  He starts to appear to Nagato and Konan pretending to be Madara and convinces them with his ghost like abilities and pushes them to start collecting tailed beast.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, Izuna was blind, because it is obviously completely impossible to get new eyes in this series.
> 
> Proof that anyone besides Dan knew any sort of spitirtual jutsu: Nonexsistent
> 
> Proof Tobi fought Hashirama: It's there.


Unless you can provide a page showing Tobi fighting Hashirama, you can't "prove" it at all. This IS Tobi we're talking about.

Also, Tobi is NOT Izuna. I could give a shitload of reasons why.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, Izuna was blind, because it is obviously completely impossible to get new eyes in this series.
> 
> Proof that anyone besides Dan knew any sort of spitirtual jutsu: Nonexsistent
> 
> Proof Tobi fought Hashirama: It's there.



Where is there proof that Tobi fought Hashirama?  You mean everything Tobi says is true.  Just like he told Konan he was Madara while he killed her.

We have panel after panel stating that Madara stole Hashirama's DNA.  Why would a supposed Madara subordinate do the same?


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Where is there proof that Tobi fought Hashirama?  You mean everything Tobi says is true.  Just like he told Konan he was Madara while he killed her.
> 
> We have panel after panel stating that Madara stole Hashirama's DNA.  Why would a supposed Madara subordinate do the same?


Exactly. The fight that was referred to was obviously Madara's.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, Tobi's arms were pretty damn young when he fought Minato. Just saying.


I wouldn't really rely on arms to support your theory if I were you.



Danzo is around as old as Sarutobi but look at his arm, and compare it with Tobi's. They look the same. That's just how Kishi draws arms.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I wouldn't really rely on arms to support your theory if I were you.
> 
> 
> 
> Danzo is around as old as Sarutobi but look at his arm, and compare it with Tobi's. They look the same. That's just how Kishi draws arms.


No. Kishi puts alot of detail into the aging of the arms. Sure not in every panel, but when it's close enough. And you can see the structuring of the arms and everything all point to the drawn person having old arms, as they should. Tobi however, during his fight with Minato, had extremely young looking arms the whole fight, even in all the closeups. They were obviously very young arms.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> These mind-body theories are so ridiculous they are not even worth discussing.



I didn't say Obito's body and someone else's mind. Just said his body is controlled by Zetsu or by someone else like Pein was controlled by Nagato.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What do you mean? There is NO confirmation whatsoever on when they formed the plan together.



First:



Madara knows Nagato. So he gave his eyes to Nagato and dies or he dies and someone gives his eyes to Nagato.


Next:



Yes, there is a plan made by Madara and Tobi. And Madara knows who Tobi is.

Finally:



Tobi is the one who gave Nagato Madara's eyes


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I didn't say Obito's body and someone else's mind. Just said his body is controlled by Zetsu or by someone else like Pein was controlled by Nagato.


That would be the most anti-climactic thing ever. It would also ruin his character. Tobi needs to be an actual soul in a body.





> First:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously, Madara knows Tobi. And it was probably Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, and I doubt it was his own eyes he gave him.

Also, you can't take everything Tobi says as credible. Madara is more likely to have given Nagato the Rinnegan.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That would be the most anti-climactic thing ever. It would also ruin his character. Tobi needs to be an actual soul in a body.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, Madara knows Tobi. But, I doubt it was his eyes he gave him.



It doesn't matter for the issue because if Madara knows Tobi, Tobi can't be mentally Obito.

The time line doesn't fit for Obito to make a plan with Madara. Read my explenation:



As a result there is a thing more important, If Obito is not the real Tobi, who is he? How can he use bodies?


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> It doesn't matter for the issue because if Madara knows Tobi, Tobi can't be mentally Obito.
> 
> The time line doesn't fit for Obito to make a plan with Madara. Read my explenation:
> 
> ...


That doesn't matter because Madara could have definitely lived past Nagato. Also, if anything, that little thing you linked me to proved that Obito could have been the one to spur Yahiko to form Akatsuki. 


Win.(Sutol style)

Whoever Tobi is, it is a soul in a body. The mask holds no relevance otherwise.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *That doesn't matter because Madara could have definitely lived past Nagato*. Also, if anything, that little thing you linked me to proved that Obito could have been the one to spur Yahiko to form Akatsuki.
> 
> 
> Win.(Sutol style)
> ...



Nope, Madara says that he has awaken Rinnegan before dies. So he couldn't live longer.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Nope, Madara says that he has awaken Rinnegan before dies. So he couldn't live longer.


How does this prove he couldn't have lived past Nagato? There is no proof that it was his own eyes that Madara gave him. Madara could have very well awakened his own Rinnegan later on.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 24, 2012)

I can't believe your answer


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 24, 2012)

^^Wow, you're active.


Who the hell is '_Setsuna_' again?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 24, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Who the hell is '_Setsuna_' again?


He's one of the background Uchiha Clan members (3rd panel, middle) given a name in Databook 3.


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I can't believe your answer


What I said was the truth. There is no proof that the Rinnegan Madara gave Nagato were his own eyes, and there is actually some evidence _against_ it.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

and even if he did give nagato HIS rinnegan, not impossible for him to have lived after the fact and replaced with regular sharingans in meantime or trained obito while he was blind. Izuna lived for some time after he lost HIS eyes. Died in battle. 

Madara could have looked at it as planning ahead giving his eyes to someone who can use them to resurrect him later.

All of these are possibilities, nothing says its impossible for tobi to be obito.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 24, 2012)

I forgot about this page. It's kind of important, too, for all these discussions, so I'll just throw it out.

Link removed

At the moment "Madara" was about to show his face, Aoba went !! and Kisame bit his own tongue to keep his identity hidden. Points to Aoba recognizing him for someone else than Madara, since he already said his name, and Kisame didn't interrupt at that moment. Somehow points to Aoba maybe knowing the man, too.

Hm.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

aoba probably would have recognized him, he's only a few years older than kakashi so he would have known obito also.,.....


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> I forgot about this page. It's kind of important, too, for all these discussions, so I'll just throw it out.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


Aoba's 34, right? Then that means it's Obito!

Although as much as I'd like this to support the Tobito theory, I'll admit that I don't think that panel was to be interpreted as anything other than just Aoba getting shocked he was about to see "Madara" 's face.

I don't really think he saw any of Tobi's face either, otherwise he would have told everyone who he thought it was.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Aoba's 34, right? Then that means it's Obito!
> 
> Although as much as I'd like this to support the Tobito theory, I'll admit that I don't think that panel was to be interpreted as anything other than just Aoba getting shocked he was about to see "Madara" 's face.
> 
> I don't really think he saw any of Tobi's face either, otherwise he would have told everyone who he thought it was.



no, but it certainly does give away that his face IS that important of a secret because its someone they would recognize. It means that it isn't Madara's face and aoba would know it.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> no, but it certainly does give away that his face IS that important of a secret because its someone they would recognize. It means that it isn't Madara's face and aoba would know it.



yea but its likely aoba only was shocked because he was about to see the face. Otherwise he would have said something just like obitouchiha111 said


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> yea but its likely aoba only was shocked because he was about to see the face. Otherwise he would have said something just like obitouchiha111 said



I NEVER said aoba saw anything...............I know he didn't. I said its why kisame prevented him from seeing anything. more likely the '!' had something to do with kisame waking himself up and breaking the jutsu. idk idr the exact panel by panel.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 24, 2012)

Uh, what? I don't understand how can people keep talking about Obito. It seems just so stupid and asspullish.

First and foremost, Tobi fought Minato, controlled goddamn Kyuubi with his eye, and was a full grown man. Second, he was the same grown man back in Kisame's flashback, when Kisame was young as well, and he controlled 4th Mizukage with a Sharingan.

What, Madara met Obito under the rock, gave him a Zetsu body and a mushroom and he grew up like Mario and it gave him epic Sharingan abilities? Please.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Uh, what? I don't understand how can people keep talking about Obito. It seems just so stupid and asspullish.
> 
> First and foremost, Tobi fought Minato, controlled goddamn Kyuubi with his eye, and was a full grown man. Second, he was the same grown man back in Kisame's flashback, when Kisame was young as well, and he controlled 4th Mizukage with a Sharingan.
> 
> What, Madara met Obito under the rock, gave him a Zetsu body and a mushroom and he grew up like Mario and it gave him epic Sharingan abilities? Please.



wow someone is closed minded, give an opinion on who you think it is and is more plausible or gtfo.

A: Fought Minato, could have gotten strong after being trained by Madara one of the strongest characters in series. His S/T Sharingan is very useful.

B: Controlled kyuubi because MAYBE, just MAYBE he learned how to by the MAN WHO MADE IT HIS PET.

C: Have you seen the Sound Five? 14-16 year olds look grown as hell. Look at kakashi during the kyuubi attack, he looks like an adult. Kimimaro is the BEST example. Look how tall Kimimaro was.

D: Again look at C for grown man as meeting Kisame

E: Meeting Kisame could be any number of years. Kisame was def not a child, probably late teens which would place it as AFTER kyuubi attack. Just because the academy bad exam ended with Zabuza doesn't mean the bloody mist itself ended. It may have lasted for some time after. Mei seems to be a reletively new kage and is JUST ending the bloody mist moniker.

F: Gives him a perfect alibi apprentice by saving obito at the last second. Tobi saved Sasuke at the last second from onoki when they thought he was dead, so we know its not impossible. Now Obito is given Zetsu like components to body to fix it which explains why its not a normal body. And No one is looking for Obito Uchiha because he is believed to be dead so no one will think twice about him living and being responsible for such actions. We already know his sharingan has s/t potential by Kakashi's. Obito was powerful WITHOUT a sharingan, he was considered a failure ONLY because he had no sharingan. So he advanced without it. When he got one he was certainly on same level as kakashi who was a jounin. And this was a baby sharingan. Now imagine it advancing with the agony of feeling 'abandoned' or 'anger of rins death' coudl be any number of reasons. but being trained by a pro lik emadara would make him strong.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 24, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Uh, what? I don't understand how can people keep talking about Obito. It seems just so stupid and asspullish.
> 
> First and foremost, Tobi fought Minato, controlled goddamn Kyuubi with his eye, and was a full grown man. Second, he was the same grown man back in Kisame's flashback, when Kisame was young as well, and he controlled 4th Mizukage with a Sharingan.
> 
> What, Madara met Obito under the rock, gave him a Zetsu body and a mushroom and he grew up like Mario and it gave him epic Sharingan abilities? Please.



its perfectly understandable for you (like most of us) to have this opinion... i ask myself everyday "how is it possible for someone to think like this???" 

Obito believers have always gone against basic logic when it comes to explaining the obvious plotholes, when the only legitamate explanation is time travel 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.

*Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

*Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

*Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation. 

*Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi. 

*Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.

*Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito. 

*Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born. 

*Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito. 

*Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.

THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL

*Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito*
Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jul 24, 2012)

Im going to go with Zetsu Clone of Original Madara now. After re-reading the Kisame Vs. Bee fight, the Zetsu clone of Kisame has a flashback of something that happened to the REAL Kisame. I can therefor conclude that once zetsu makes a clone with someones chakra their memories are also implanted into that clone.

Tobi also states that these zetsu clones are weak and have very little power, Tobi has used ONLY SHARINGAN and RENNINGAN jutsus, this could be because he can not use anything else.

And the personality changes Tobi seems to have can be explained from the new sharingan eyes he implants since they carry the chakra of the person they originally came from and like I said before, the zetsu clones receive the memories of the chakra they absorb.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> its perfectly understandable for you (like most of us) to have this opinion... i ask myself everyday "how is it possible for someone to think like this???"
> 
> Obito believers have always gone against basic logic when it comes to explaining the obvious plotholes, when the only legitamate explanation is time travel
> 
> ...




every single one of your "plot holes" is easily countered and it doesn't even involve time travel as a solution. We have also gone over all of tobi's quotes when he refers to himself as Madara and we have concluded that either

-he is lying
-he has deluded himself into believing he's actually madara
-he's not lying but he is talking like he's maadara when in reality he only has his memories or just info that madara told him himself before he died

read the past couple of pages for answers to the rest of your "plot holes".


----------



## jacamo (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> every single one of your "plot holes" is easily countered and it doesn't even involve time travel as a solution. We have also gone over all of tobi's quotes when he refers to himself as Madara and we have concluded that either
> 
> -he is lying
> -he has deluded himself into believing he's actually madara
> ...



you have clearly convinced yourself that the explanations you have given actually explain the plotholes... when in reality the vast majority of us fans laugh at your explanations because they are ridiculous and defy logic


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you have clearly convinced yourself that the explanations you have given actually explain the plotholes... when in reality the vast majority of us fans laugh at your explanations because they are ridiculous and defy logic



you don't even know my explanations because you don't read pro obito defense. The obito theory is the only 1 with actual evidence supporting it. Aside from that, every one of the theories have aspects that make no sense.


the biggest downfall all of the other theories have though is that the reveal would be completely pointless and anti climatic. A fact that you always conveniently ignore.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 24, 2012)

son_michael said:


> you don't even know my explanations because you don't read pro obito defense. The obito theory is the only 1 with actual evidence supporting it. Aside from that, every one of the theories have aspects that make no sense.



ive read your "evidence" and its nothing more than conjecture 

Nagato being older than Obito - thats evidence

Tobi saying he fought Hashirama - thats eveidence



> the biggest downfall all of the other theories have though is that the reveal would be completely pointless and anti climatic. A fact that you always conveniently ignore.



i didnt ignore it

ive said many times that i think ANY reveal will be anti-clamactic


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ive read your "evidence" and its nothing more than conjecture
> 
> Nagato being older than Obito - thats evidence
> 
> ...



How about this:
Minato is Tobi.

The story of the nine tails was told by Kushina, but she was actually under Minato's genjutsu for the majority of her life and even her afterlife, so everything was false. In reality, Minato summoned the Nine Tails but it overpowerd him. Fearing his chance would be ruined, he sealed it into Naruto using a seal that was not the death gpd, faked the apearaence of the seal then took up the identity of Tobi.

Climactic enough for you?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ive read your "evidence" and its nothing more than conjecture
> 
> Nagato being older than Obito - thats evidence
> 
> ...



Zero evidence for tobi beinolder than nagato . Conjecture of him pretending to be madara.
Zero evidence for tobi fighting hashirama. Again conjecture for him being madara.
You fail
Miserably you don't understand definition of evidence


----------



## son_michael (Jul 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ive read your "evidence" and its nothing more than conjecture



call it w/e you want, the obito theory has it and none of the other theories do. All they have is" oh this would be cool but we don't have any panels to back it up!" 



> Nagato being older than Obito - thats evidence



madara said he expected Nagato to revive him which means what tobi said was most likely true but he didn't do it. Unless of course you want tobi to be a stupid clone(which you do if im not mistaken)





> Tobi saying he fought Hashirama - thats evidence



only if he is madara's clone or has his memories. It makes much more sense to assume he's lying considering he is a proven liar that has been contradicted





> i didnt ignore it
> 
> ive said many times that i think ANY reveal will be anti-clamactic



ok then so your policy is to take the 2 panel characters with no development or random ass new characters that the fans don't know or care about as opposed to an established character with emotional connections to the fans

gotcha


----------



## NW (Jul 24, 2012)

Obito's wining the poll.


jacamo said:


> its perfectly understandable for you (like most of us) to have this opinion... i ask myself everyday "how is it possible for someone to think like this???"
> 
> Obito believers have always gone against basic logic when it comes to explaining the obvious plotholes, when the only legitamate explanation is time travel
> 
> ...


I can't understand that people actually think it's feasible that a retarded ass one panel fodder Uchiha introdues 300 CHAPTERS AFTER TOBI is his true identity.

NONE of the things you've listed are plotholes. People give you logical explanations for them, and you just don't want to accept what they tell you.



son_michael said:


> call it w/e you want, the obito theory has it and none of the other theories do. All they have is" oh this would be cool but we don't have any panels to back it up!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best refutal ever.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan *(chapter 509 page 4)*... this makes it impossible for Tobi to be Obito because Nagato is older than Obito, much older in fact

"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." at this point Kabuto already knows Tobi is not Madara because of the 6th coffin and has no reason to lie, therefore Tobi fought Hashirama *(chapter 512 page 9) *

thats what you call evidence


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan *(chapter 509 page 4)*... this makes it impossible for Tobi to be Obito because Nagato is older than Obito, much older in fact
> 
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." at this point Kabuto already knows Tobi is not Madara because of the 6th coffin and has no reason to lie, therefore Tobi fought Hashirama *(chapter 512 page 9) *
> 
> thats what you call evidence



from a consistent liar, hewasn't gonna give any hints on who he really was, and kabuto doesn't know who he really is still. he jus tknew he wasn't madara.

was it stolen from hashirama? yes
did madara steal tissue from hashirama? yes


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> from a consistent liar, hewasn't gonna give any hints on who he really was, and kabuto doesn't know who he really is still. he jus tknew he wasn't madara.
> 
> was it stolen from hashirama? yes
> did madara steal tissue from hashirama? yes



Hey, did you know that Minato never learned Rasegan?

Jiraiya, Kushina, and Kakashi are all liars, and whenever they think about it to themselves they are simply trying to deceive themselves into thinking it is true.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Hey, did you know that Minato never learned Rasegan?
> 
> Jiraiya, Kushina, and Kakashi are all liars, and whenever they think about it to themselves they are simply trying to deceive themselves into thinking it is true.



henever though about it to himself...........


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> from a consistent liar, hewasn't gonna give any hints on who he really was, and kabuto doesn't know who he really is still. he jus tknew he wasn't madara.



conjecture + no manga evidence



> was it stolen from hashirama? yes
> did madara steal tissue from hashirama? yes



answering your own questions = conjecture

+ no manga evidence



time and time again, i have provided manga evidence... where is yours?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> conjecture + no manga evidence
> 
> 
> 
> ...



madara has a face of hashirama on his body. which means he stole tissue. why would they need to steal tissue TWICE from hashirama................
it means madara stole it.

ALL kabuto did was make it so madara had all his powers in his PRIME age. he didnt make the hashirama face OR rinnegan, that was all madaras doing.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

The poll has been updated! Nice.

I was tempted to vote for Madara Clone/Experiment, but in the end I chose 'Other'. I just have a feeling that Kishi is going to surprise everyone. I'm pretty sure Tobi is a well-known character, but he'll be someone we never expect - not even an Uchiha. 

After years of waiting and arguing he should be truly shocking, not the guys we've talked about forever. Obito? I am sick of seeing that name. He was the original Tobi theory and would bore me to tears if that is confirmed.

Kishi has waited far too long. Whatever he does now can't possibly live up to the hype.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> madara has a face of hashirama on his body. which means he stole tissue. why would they need to steal tissue TWICE from hashirama................
> it means madara stole it.
> 
> ALL kabuto did was make it so madara had all his powers in his PRIME age. he didnt make the hashirama face OR rinnegan, that was all madaras doing.



you see... this is conjecture

conjecture doesnt explain the plotholes


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you see... this is conjecture
> 
> conjecture doesnt explain the plotholes



EVERY POSSIVILITY is conjecture

You don't even know what a conjecture, what evidence, what proof, or even what the definition of a theory is.

If anything was flawless there would
Be no conjecture and we would know who it is 100% for
Sure


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan *(chapter 509 page 4)*... this makes it impossible for Tobi to be Obito because Nagato is older than Obito, much older in fact
> 
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." at this point Kabuto already knows Tobi is not Madara because of the 6th coffin and has no reason to lie, therefore Tobi fought Hashirama *(chapter 512 page 9) *
> 
> thats what you call evidence


Tobi said he was Madara. He's not Madara. You're so called "evidence" fails.



Hossaim said:


> Hey, did you know that Minato never learned Rasegan?
> 
> Jiraiya, Kushina, and Kakashi are all liars, and whenever they think about it to themselves they are simply trying to deceive themselves into thinking it is true.






jacamo said:


> conjecture + no manga evidence
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, the only one here not providing manga evidence is you.

For pete's sake, you think Tobi is motherfucking kagami. -.-

You call everything else assumptions and shit when Kagami is the biggest one of them all. He literally has NO evidence going for him. In fact, he has even MORE evidence AGAINST him.



jacamo said:


> you see... this is conjecture
> 
> conjecture doesnt explain the plotholes


You don't even understand what a plothole is. NOTHING you have listed on the list is a plothole!

Everything Mistshadow said in that post you replied to was CANON MANGA FACT. You are a giant contradiction.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

i literally provide chapter number the page number as evidence 

Obito believers say its not evidence 



Nagato is older than Obito man... major timeline plothole right there


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i literally provide chapter number the page number as evidence
> 
> Obito believers say its not evidence
> 
> ...


Yes, but the "evidence" you give doesn't disprove this theory in any way.

How does Nagato being older than Obito disprove anything?

Oh I know what you're gonna say: "Herp derp, Tobi said he did". He was posing as Madara, so of course he'd claim his feats as his own. Then you'll say "Tobi had no reason to lie to Konan. He was about to kill her." He also said he was Madara. Was he Madara? NO!

Ugh, some people.

I just want Naruto or Kakashi to get Obito's damn mask off so all this can end.

Let me know if you want me to tell you why Tobi isn't Kagami. Although, I doubt you'd listen. -__-

Obito would have been old enough, however, to spur Yahiko to form Akatsuki.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How does Nagato being older than Obito disprove anything?



because Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan when Nagato was a child... chapter 509 page 4... this isnt possible if Obito wasnt even born 

i cant make it more obvious than that


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

The "Tobi is a liar" excuse is getting old. Sure, he lied about some things, but not _everything_. That would be terrible writing. A character who can't speak a word of truth is a joke. It also ruins most of his dialog. Why lie to Kushina? She never suspected Madara. Acting in this situation is pointless.

Maybe his whole personality is a lie, not just goofy Tobi - every aspect of him. A true 'nobody'.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi said he was Madara. He's not Madara. You're so called "evidence" fails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You facepalm, yet that is basically the argument you constantly make.


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

Theory hole. If Obito is Tobi, why does Tobi look much older than Kakashi?


----------



## insane111 (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> Theory hole. If Obito is Tobi, why does Tobi look much older than Kakashi?



When I brought that up, the answer I got was "those are scars, not wrinkles". Even though they're clearly wrinkles, but whatever I don't want to participate in that argument again


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

sigh... is this the part where ObitoUchiha111 is going to say it was really Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan? 

despite manga canon saying it was Tobi (chapter 509 page 4)


----------



## General Mael Radec (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> Theory hole. If Obito is Tobi, why does Tobi look much older than Kakashi?



Why does kakashi look much younger than obito? these are the question than need to be asked!


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> sigh... is this the part where ObitoUchiha111 is going to say it was really Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan?
> 
> *despite manga canon saying it was Tobi (chapter 509 page 4)*


Tobi lies?

That's become the answer for every plothole or timeline issue.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> because Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan when Nagato was a child... chapter 509 page 4... this isnt possible if Obito wasnt even born
> 
> i cant make it more obvious than that


Tobi said he was Madara. this isn't possible if Madara is dead. I can't make it anymore obvious than that.



Easley said:


> The "Tobi is a liar" excuse is getting old. Sure, he lied about some things, but not _everything_. That would be terrible writing. A character who can't speak a word of truth is a joke. It also ruins most of his dialog. Why lie to Kushina? She never suspected Madara. Acting in this situation is pointless.
> 
> Maybe his whole personality is a lie, not just goofy Tobi - every aspect of him. A true 'nobody'.


I agree with the first part. But personally, I think whatever turned Obito so evil, also made him want to forget his past so he sees Madara as a way not only to start a war to complete Tsuki No Me, but to hide from his real identity. That's why when his Madara act was blown, he referred to himself as No One. This would really make him the exact opposite of Naruto. Naruto was trying to prove he's someone other than just a demon fox, and that he actually had his own identity, whereas Tobi(Obito) wants to forget about himself and his true identity completely, by "being" Madara. This is great writing, and fits incredibly well with the story. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto, so an evil Obito would be Naruto's exact opposite and a great final villain. Even Itachi said that Naruto would become like Tobi if he let his ego get too big and forgot about his friends. And Obito was centered around friends/comrades. This is an obvious hint to Tobi being Obito. Moreover, it shows even more that Tobi being Obito would fit very well with Kishimoto's writing style.

I know your opinion differs and there's nothing I can do to convince you, but this is just what I think. Sure, a good 80% of it is just conjecture, but it fits well with Kishimoto's writing style and really seems like something Kishimoto would do. All in all, I think this is a great way to tie up the story.

I know no one here probably agrees with me about this, but just give it some thought. I know it's out there.

I also think Tobi was telling the truth about spurring Yahiko to form Akatsuki.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

ha... so you think Tobi was telling the truth about spurring Yahiko to create Akatsuki, but all of a sudden Tobi was lying about giving Nagato the Rinnegan ... when all of that dialogue came from the same chapter


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> Theory hole. If Obito is Tobi, why does Tobi look much older than Kakashi?


Though some here would disagree, those "wrinkles" are most likely scars from the boulder.

Tobi doesn't display the narrow jaw bone, crow feet, or heavy under-eye creases, like other old people. This suggests that he is not really of old age. And those scars on his face look like his face was damaged by the boulder. They don't even look like wrinkles. They're just sloppily on there. Not to mention that the left side of his face has no scars. And his arms were very young when you saw them during his fight with Minato.



jacamo said:


> ha... so you think Tobi was telling the truth about spurring Yahiko to create Akatsuki, but all of a sudden Tobi was lying about giving Nagato the Rinnegan ... when all of that dialogue came from the same chapter


There's nothing saying he couldn't have mixed lies with the truth. After all, of course he would have mixed his feats with Madara's if he was posing as him.

The Good Boy works in mysterious ways.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ha... so you think Tobi was telling the truth about spurring Yahiko to create Akatsuki, but all of a sudden Tobi was lying about giving Nagato the Rinnegan ... when all of that dialogue came from the same chapter



Actually it doesn't matter.

Madara knows who Tobi is. So they made a plan. And Nagato's rinnegans belong to Madara.

Since Obito couldn't be born 15-20 years earlier to  make a plan with Madara Tobi can not be Obito.


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

Not a scar


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Actually it doesn't matter.
> 
> Madara knows who Tobi is. So they made a plan. And Nagato's rinnegans belong to Madara.
> 
> Since Obito couldn't be born 15-20 years earlier to  make a plan with Madara Tobi can not be Obito.



ha... you dont have to tell me man

its just that its so damn obvious


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> [sp]
> [/sp]
> 
> So scars disappear?


No.



Lesson #1 in Tobi theories: DON'T TRUST THE ANIME. They fuck everything up.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ha... you dont have to tell me man
> 
> its just that its so damn obvious



No, Madara walked around fine eyeless for 15 years (Because, unlike with Izuna, there was little option for other eyes), and was able to train Obito with no eyes. 

Obviously.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> No, Madara walked around fine eyeless for 15 years (Because, unlike with Izuna, there was little option for other eyes), and was able to train Obito with no eyes.
> 
> Obviously.


Dat Madara.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I agree with the first part. But personally, I think whatever turned Obito so evil, also made him want to forget his past so he sees Madara as a way not only to start a war to complete Tsuki No Me, but to hide from his real identity. That's why when his Madara act was blown, he referred to himself as No One. This would really make him the exact opposite of Naruto. Naruto was trying to prove he's someone other than just a demon fox, and that he actually had his own identity, whereas Tobi(Obito) wants to forget about himself and his true identity completely, by "being" Madara. This is great writing, and fits incredibly well with the story. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto, so an evil Obito would be Naruto's exact opposite and a great final villain. Even Itachi said that Naruto would become like Tobi if he let his ego get too big and forgot about his friends. And Obito was centered around friends/comrades. This is an obvious hint to Tobi being Obito. Moreover, it shows even more that Tobi being Obito would fit very well with Kishimoto's writing style.


All of that must seem very convincing when you already support the theory. It could even fit if you ignore how implausible it is. I won't rule it out because nothing would surprise me after Nagato's resolution. That was utter bullshit. Obito would take the cake though. That needs a sob story of epic proportions to explain him turning evil.



> I know your opinion differs and there's nothing I can do to convince you, but this is just what I think. Sure, a good 80% of it is just conjecture, but it fits well with Kishimoto's writing style and really seems like something Kishimoto would do. All in all, I think this is a great way to tie up the story.


I have an open mind about Tobi. I'll consider any theory, if it makes sense of course. I think Kishi took the Madara "act" too far and made Tobi into a liar. Not the greatest of writing - especially when said character is providing backstory.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> No, Madara walked around fine eyeless for 15 years (Because, unlike with Izuna, there was little option for other eyes), and was able to train Obito with no eyes.
> 
> Obviously.



Re-read following manga page:


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

Can the anime really mess up that bad? This is not a scar

[sp=Tag yo' shit]





[/sp]
A SCAR?


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> All of that must seem very convincing when you already support the theory. It could even fit if you ignore how implausible it is. I won't rule it out because nothing would surprise me after Nagato's resolution. That was utter bullshit. Obito would take the cake though. That needs a sob story of epic proportions to explain him turning evil.


it fits perfectly with all of Kishi's established themes. It is obviously there. To ignore the obviousness of it is ignorant. Obito is the only character that has solid connections that an be made with Tobi. What's sad is that people ignore the obvious connections. And what's wrong with sob stories?

In fact, the similarity between the Obito theory and Kishi's writing style is what got me into this theory in the first place. Believe it or not, about 4 or 5 months ago, I was the biggest hater of this theory. Now I love it.

Glad I'm not supporting that Kagami bullshit anymore...


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Re-read following manga page:



You fail to see, Madara is actually a travelling space god and 15 years are shortly to him.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> You fail to see, Madara is actually a travelling space god and 15 years are shortly to him.



If I fail by doing this, I'm the biggest failure ever!

That's my Ninja way!

Just accept the reality, stop trying to create travelling things


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> If I fail by doing this, I'm the biggest failure ever!
> 
> That's my Ninja way!
> 
> Just accept the reality, stop trying to create travelling things



I hope you realized at this point how sarcastic im being. 

Seriously, Madara could not have known Obito.


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Seriously, Madara could not have known Obito.


PLOT HOLE NUMBER 2


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> Can the anime really mess up that bad? This is not a scar
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. The anime CAN mess up that bad. In every one of those scene in the manga, all the visible lines are there, not once are they gone.











Deal with it. I gots da manga on my side.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 25, 2012)

Funny how ObitoUchiha11 is completely ignoring this very strong argument against Tobito. His go to excuses "He was pretending to be someone else" or "He lied" won't work this time.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:
			
		

> Funny how ObitoUchiha11 is completely ignoring this very strong argument against Tobito. His go to excuses "He was pretending to be someone else" or "He lied" won't work this time.


Actually, I have arguments against all of them, But people won't listen. So I'm basically just fucking around now. it will be revealed soon anyway.


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> FINALLY!!!! SOMEONE ELSE GETS IT!!!
> 
> I didn't think anyone had that theory but me!Actually, I have arguments against all of them, But people won't listen. So I'm basically just fucking around now. it will be revealed soon anyway.



You have not listened to any hard evidence against your theory. 

Heres some more, this time MANGA.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> You have not listened to any hard evidence against your theory.
> 
> Heres some more, this time MANGA.


What the fuck? I don't even...


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What the fuck? I don't even...



yeah...what now?


----------



## jacamo (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> You have not listened to any hard evidence against your theory.
> 
> Heres some more, this time MANGA.



LMAO


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

Even troll face has 'scars'


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> yeah...what now?


Fuck... I've seen the light. I never even realized how stupid it was of me to believe in the Obito theory until you showed me that picture. I guess only Kagami or Izuna make sense then... I know this cuz I'm mad...







*Spoiler*: __ 



:ho


----------



## Amacfa (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Fuck... I've seen the light. I never even realized how stupid it was of me to believe in the Obito theory until you showed me that picture. I guess only Kagami or Izuna make sense then... I know this cuz I'm mad...



That isn't enough, apologize to everyone on the forum for expressing your opinion.


----------



## Hokage (Jul 25, 2012)

In the beginning the Uchiha clan was lead by Madara Uchiha. We know that they went at great length to keep up with the Senju, especially the Uchiha brothers who trained hard and even unleashed MS sharingan. Tobi goes in detail in telling us that at that point Izuna and Madara were at the same level. 

At one point Madara started going blind and Izuna as a loyal subject and younger brother gave the clan leader his eyes. Izuna vanished from the scene to pave Madara the way to glory. 

Unfortunately the Uchiha clan were fed up of war and wanted peace with the Senju. They hated Madara's way of wanting power at all cost and they turned their back to him, paving the way for the Hashirama vs Madara fight, his exile and Madara's hatred towards his own clan. 

Now imagine yourself as Madara Uchiha. Weakened by Hashirama, betrayed by his clan and with an ambitious plan that needed him to remain hidden for many years, Madara couldn't afford to be betrayed once again. If that had to happen, all villages would rally against him, at least Konoha and Iwakagure who had friction with Madara. So why would Madara risk everything in exposing himself to Shisui or Obito? These two characters were fiercely loyal to Konoha and their mates. The former lost both his eyes (one to Danzo and the other was given to Itachi) while the latter was hardly known to be a promising Uchiha and ended up crushed by a rock.  Why would Madara risk everything to choose a crippled Uchiha who would probably be against his plan all along?

Tobi could in theory be Madara (he used Mu splitting technique). This would justify 'the shell of his former self' quote said by Itachi AND 'I have no name' quote said by Tobi. However this theory rise new questions. Why is Tobi not following Madara's plan? Why hasnt Tobi used the rinnegan to resurrect Madara in the first place (which is the other side of his original power)? 

the most plausible theory is that Tobi is in fact Izuna. Its make sense

a) he is a shell of his former self (he lost MS sharingan)
b) he's probably the only person Madara could trust (an Uchiha who gave his very eyes to keep Madara's dream alive)
c) he's got no name (he was blotted from history the day he lost all his power to strengthen Madara) 
d) In certain ways he has the right to say that he's Madara (Madara's EMS power is just the fusion of Izuna's and Madara's power)
E) His hatred towards the Uchiha clan is equal/stronger then that of his brother. He ended up blind just to keep the Uchiha's standard high and fought for the clan despite being disabled. How dare they turn against his brother and him?
F) He wasnt amongst the people resurrected by Kabuto. 

I think Izuna was rescued by his brother when he was mortally injured in battlefield. Madara saved him/used him as a guinee pig, by using body parts derived from Senju cells and trusted him with his plan. At one point Madara died leaving his eyes to Nagato (the latter was an Uzumaki ie a chakra monster capable of resurrecting people) and entrusted Tobi with a well specified plan which included the Moon Plan + his inevitable resurrection. 

Tobi continued his brother's plan until he came to the conclusion that, hey he could become the moon plan master puppeteer after all. 

Unfortunately for him Kabuto resurrected Madara and the Uchiha broke out of control.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> it fits perfectly with all of Kishi's established themes. It is obviously there. To ignore the obviousness of it is ignorant. Obito is the only character that has solid connections that an be made with Tobi. What's sad is that people ignore the obvious connections


The "obvious connections" are not seen by everyone, so they can't be that obvious. Obito being Tobi requires too much twisting of past events. I refuse to believe he fought Minato, summoned Kyuubi, controlled Yagura, and helped Itachi massacre the Uchiha.



> And what's wrong with sob stories?


Nothing I suppose, except that most other villains have had one. Can't Tobi just be evil? A complete monster you can't redeem?


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Amacfa said:


> That isn't enough, apologize to everyone on the forum for expressing your opinion.


I'm sorry forum. I shouldn't have expressed my opinion. I should have known better since this isn't a free speech forum.



Hokage said:


> In the beginning the Uchiha clan was lead by Madara Uchiha. We know that they went at great length to keep up with the Senju, especially the Uchiha brothers who trained hard and even unleashed MS sharingan. Tobi goes in detail in telling us that at that point Izuna and Madara were at the same level.
> 
> At one point Madara started going blind and Izuna as a loyal subject and younger brother gave the clan leader his eyes. Izuna vanished from the scene to pave Madara the way to glory.
> 
> ...


o__O 

This is actually one of the best arguments I've seen put forth for Izuna. +rep


Easley said:


> The "obvious connections" are not seen by everyone, so they can't be that obvious. Obito being Tobi requires too much twisting of past events. I refuse to believe he fought Minato, summoned Kyuubi, controlled Yagura, and helped Itachi massacre the Uchiha.
> 
> Nothing I suppose, except that most other villains have had one. Can't Tobi just be evil? A complete monster you can't redeem?


Oro didn't have one.

And just because he has a sob story doesn't mean he's gonna be redeemed. Although, redemption IS a pretty big theme in this manga.

Besides, he's only a really deep villain if he's had a tragic past that made him the way he is. He's a monster shaped by the horrors of war and of the twisted shinobi world. (Lol, I sound like a philosopher. XD)


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 25, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Funny how ObitoUchiha11 is completely ignoring this very strong argument against Tobito. His go to excuses "He was pretending to be someone else" or "He lied" won't work this time.



They are not mere excuses if they are plausible. If you refuse to recognize the possibility that Tobi was lying and trying to perfectly masquerade as the real Madara, then you are in denial.

Strictly speaking, the Tobito theory is not impossible.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 25, 2012)

Oh cool, a new poll finally.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Gonna post this also here since it's related to Tobi's identity; 



			
				Mayaki said:
			
		

> So? Why does Kisame then think that they are the same person after seeing their faces?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Look, after the guy said I am Madara Kisame said ''show me your face, i  don't believe you'' this implies that Kisame knew how the real Madara  looked like.
Kisame couldn't have been fooled or w/e just like that, the real Madara  told Kisame about his plan, Tobi taking over his role, thats why Kisame  reffered Tobi to Madara.

2: And some more small details which hint us that guy strongly being the real Madara; 






And the chapters title is rather suspicious; A living lie.
If this guy is indeed the living Madara, he's hiding in the shadow while the lie (Tobi) is living around as Madara.
Tobi always talked in Madara's perspective, Madara was indeed also  living around as a shell of his former self (Tobito in my case) the  point is when did the real Madara die?
Right before the war? 
Was his intentions to create war and rescue himself in top form?
Wouldn't that make Madara's reaction about Nagato being grown useless,  perhaps Madara never managed to meet Nagato for a second time when he  was full grown, that line can simply be filled with things like this.



			
				tnorbo said:
			
		

> what does the flashback have to do with it? even  if it was madara in itachi's flashback we saw tobi wear the mask 7 years  before that


Thats the same argument as people trolling about the Tobito theories of the ''he has the same hairs'' thingy right?
Anyways even if i am right small points like ''Tobi and Madara had the  same mask'' won't even stop this theory since it can be simply  explained, there are bigger points which must be explained like my quote  above here.

People should already stop about supporting the haircutting theory since Tobi is revealed not being Madara.
If the long haired guy was Tobi why does he cuts his hair as he was going to act like Madara anyways?
His hairs would have instead support him more being the real Madara.
And on top of that why did Kishi make showing Tobi his hairs on the Minato fight? ; 

Was it really that necessary for Minato to see Tobi's hair?
No it was Kishis intention to show us that there were 2 masked mans The  real Madara and Tobi. *(Just like the road of the ninja movie where on 2  masked mans are, 1 being revealed as Shisui and 1 being Tobi unknown  whether he will be revealed on the movie)*
And on top of that Itachi keept extremely reffer the long haired masked  guy being the real Madara even before his death and even in Edo Form.
At his final scenes with Sasuke he suddenly calls Tobi just ''Tobi'' instead Madara.
When did Itachi had the chance to figure out that the long haired ''Madara'' was just Tobi?
Simply he didn't because he was reffering to the real Tobi which was manipulating Sasuke.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 25, 2012)

I swear you will see Tobi being revealed as being Obito, read my Sig.


----------



## Somnus (Jul 25, 2012)

*For the people who are sure Tobi isn't Obito, who do you think Tobi really is ?*

Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.

My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.

I cannot think of anyone else to be Tobi other than Obito. If Tobi is Izuna or Shisui there will be 0 emotional impact when it's revealed. Kakashi, Naruto , Gai and Bee never met these guys, so it would be rather awkward to have the final villain to be someone that was a side character and had no important input in the life of these 4 characters that were chosen to fight this final battle against Tobi. 

When Madara appeared he didn't appeared to fight some random team. He appeared in front of the Kages, and two of them had a "connection" to him. Tsunade as the granddaughter of his rival and Onoki already met him before.

Naruto isn't a mystery manga, it's a shounen, the clues will be simple and in our faces, not farfetched. 

So what are the options that you guys think are MORE valid than Obito=Tobi ?


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


I'm sure there'll be plenty of emotional impact no matter who Tobi really is. I'm rather certain that at the very least the sharingan is Obito's. There are far too many parallels with Kakashi's Kamui. And it may even be Obito's body- or what's left of it. But the mind behind it won't be Obito's there are far too many inconsistencies with that.


----------



## Trent (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


A special Zetsu clone of Madara.

The only way I could tolerate a Tobito possibility would be this:

Madara fought Hashirama, was defeated but got himself some of his cells. He then experimented on those cells, unlocked the Rinnegan, and eventually created Zetsu. Upon his death, he ordered Zetsu to integrate in himself the information needed to make a perfect clone of him and to further his goals.

At that point only, could I personally bear introducing Obito in the mix.

Zetsu could have used the remains of Obito's body and his own cells to create Tobi, the perfect clone of Madara, made from an Uchiha corpse (or at worse, Obito's dying body) and his own modified Senju cells thus making him a Ridukou, with all the knowledge of Madara and all the knowledge that Zetsu had accumulated over the years. 

And if Obito wasn't fully dead then implanting Madara's mind in him would have overwritten his old persona, maybe only leaving remnants of it, a bit like with Oro's soul transfer jutsu.

Such clone would pretty much immediately be operational and powerful hence could have been the one responsible for the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


Obito being Tobi.
Long haired masked man being the real Madara.
2 masked mans like on the road to the ninja.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


Some artifical being (he's made of goo) with the soul of Izuna or Madara, who happened to pick up Obito's eye after he died.


----------



## Bender (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


Naruto from an alternate universe or Izuna


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


I don't know who he is, but I doubt he's an Uchiha. One of the main reasons is that it limits the choice. Kishi would be pretty much saying that Tobi is one of six people, at the most. We've been going round in circles arguing about them for years. Not very exciting.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


Izuna or a Madara clone one of the two.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Oh and I forgot to say this in my previous post. This thread belongs into the library not telegrams. It doesn't really have anything to do with this chapter.


----------



## lo0p (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm not against the Tobi is Obito theory at all.  That's what I thought at first actually.  But if he's not Obito, I think he might be Madara's younger brother.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

All of the evidence points to Obito.  The other theories at this point are simply because they're Uchiha or completely made up with nothing to show in the manga.  

Of course Tobi might not be Obito.  But it's blatantly obvious you're susposed to think it's him because there is no evidence he could be anyone else.


----------



## AlphaRooster (Jul 25, 2012)

ugh stop these threads. Chapter 404. Kisame clearly recognizes tobi as a Mizukage!


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2012)

He called him Mizukage mockingly because he toyed with Yagura. Then he accepted he was Madara after Tobi was convinced his face would make Kisame believe he was him.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Jul 25, 2012)

It's not Obito, no chance. I once thought this theory before putting effort into thinking about it. Yea there is subtle hints with the half body thing, and the one eye, etc. But if you tap your head and remove the tunnel vision for a second it becomes clear, either it's Izuna or it is a random character who idolizes Madara.

I say it's 75/25 chance that the body doesn't even belong to Obito.

There is no reason in hell that it would make sense from a writers prospective to have Tobi revealed as Obito, that's why the theory is dismissed so easily.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2012)

At best it's Obito's eye, which isn't a stretch.
He collects eyes.


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


I see what you did here, OP. Pathetically trying to legitimize Tobito theory with sentences like "what is MORE valid than Tobito"  While it's not valid at all 

Tobi is Tobi and he is Madara at the same time. His clone, to be specific. Not a Kage Bunshin but an actual clone made of cells. Zetsu-like cells, to be specific. And MAYBE he has Obito eye implanted atm, it's not that unbelievable considering Tobi is an eye-collector.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

AlphaRooster said:


> ugh stop these threads. Chapter 404. Kisame clearly recognizes tobi as a Mizukage!



1. Obito and Kisame are about the same age.  
2.  We don't know how old Kisame was at the time.
3.  We don't know how long the Mizukage was being controlled.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Gonna post this also here since it's related to Tobi's identity;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Madara must have been dead when long haired masked man controlled Yagura. Time line doesn't fit.

BTW: Also, you're right about more than one body.


----------



## Coldhands (Jul 25, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I'm sure there'll be plenty of emotional impact no matter who Tobi really is. I'm rather certain that at the very least the sharingan is Obito's. There are far too many parallels with Kakashi's Kamui. And it may even be Obito's body- or what's left of it. But the mind behind it won't be Obito's there are far too many inconsistencies with that.



I pretty much agree with this. The Sharingan is almost certainly Obito's, possibly the body too. But it's someone else in control.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> It's not Obito, no chance. I once thought this theory before putting effort into thinking about it. Yea there is subtle hints with the half body thing, and the one eye, etc. But if you tap your head and remove the tunnel vision for a second it becomes clear, either it's Izuna or it is a random character who idolizes Madara.
> 
> I say it's 75/25 chance that the body doesn't even belong to Obito.
> 
> There is no reason in hell that it would make sense from a writers prospective to have Tobi revealed as Obito, that's why the theory is dismissed so easily.



Izuna's never has been named in the manga.  I seriously doubt they'd use a character they didn't bother to name.  I will give it there are two things.  The arm clinch during story time and the claim that Nagato's eyes are his.  

There are plenty of reason for him to be Obito but it still comes down to opinions.


----------



## Somnus (Jul 25, 2012)

AlphaRooster said:


> ugh stop these threads. Chapter 404. Kisame clearly recognizes tobi as a Mizukage!



I think the idea that the Tobi with long hair is Madara and that the Tobi with short hair is Obito fits very well with everything. After all Edo-Madara hinted that he knew Tobi so he was involved in whatever was going on. Maybe Kisame knew about it too.



Faustus said:


> I see what you did here, OP. Pathetically trying to legitimize Tobito theory with sentences like "what is MORE valid than Tobito"  While it's not valid at all
> 
> Tobi is Tobi and he is Madara at the same time. His clone, to be specific. Not a Kage Bunshin but an actual clone made of cells. Zetsu-like cells, to be specific. And MAYBE he has Obito eye implanted atm, it's not that unbelievable considering Tobi is an eye-collector.



Is not valid ? It's more valid and has more proof than the theory you just wrote. There's nothing that indicates that Tobi is a Zetsu clone, only that half of his body is made of the same matter. Because it has been seen before that the right part of Tobi's face is human, not white and weird like Zetsu.

Besides we know Tobi is a eye collector yet he never used or mentioned using the other eyes. The only time he used another eye was this rinnegan and it was placed in the left-zetsu-made part of his face, not on the human part.

Even his orange mask symbolizes the power of his right eye. It seems to me that the maskshe uses have some kind of relation to his power. He used the wortex mask when he only had the sharingan (that if is only borrowed from Obito then there's a lot of attachment to that eye) and then switched to the grey mask because of symbolism behind that mask and the tomoes, Rikkudou Sennin and the Rinnegan.

All the theories until now posted IMO have less proof (or none whatsoever) than the Tobi=Obito.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% certain that it's Obito, but I think it's time more people stop acting as if it's the most ridiculous idea on earth.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 25, 2012)

If Tobi was Obito, he would've froze up with all those rocks flying around him like Tsunade did at the sight of blood.


----------



## Trent (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Is not valid ? It's more valid and has more proof than the theory you just wrote. *There's nothing that indicates that Tobi is a Zetsu clone, only that half of his body is made of the same matter. Because it has been seen before that the right part of Tobi's face is human, not white and weird like Zetsu.*
> 
> Besides we know Tobi is a eye collector yet he never used or mentioned using the other eyes. The only time he used another eye was this rinnegan and it was placed in the left-zetsu-made part of his face, not on the human part.



Zetsu makes "perfect" clones with the exact appeaeance of the original _and _access to their abilities, as shown in the Kisame/Bee fight.


----------



## Chuck (Jul 25, 2012)

no one
because Tobi actually admitted this.


----------



## Trent (Jul 25, 2012)

The Flying Chuck said:


> no one
> because Tobi actually admitted this.



And that's a big pro towards the Zetsu clone theory. 

He is not a "real" person.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Madara must have been dead when long haired masked man controlled Yagura. Time line doesn't fit.
> 
> BTW: Also, you're right about more than one body.


Theres nowhere stated whenever Madara did die.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 25, 2012)

at the zetsu clone theory because the person weve all been waiting for hides his face because he looks like a clone of Madara


----------



## tkwon (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> I think the idea that the Tobi with long hair is Madara and that the Tobi with short hair is Obito fits very well with everything. After all Edo-Madara hinted that he knew Tobi so he was involved in whatever was going on. Maybe Kisame knew about it too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tobi used izanagi while fighting against Konan.

What about his old, old mask design, when he fought the 4th? It was not the vortex pattern, but some primitive ink design.

You have no proof either lol.


----------



## Trent (Jul 25, 2012)

son_michael said:


> at the zetsu clone theory because the person weve all been waiting for hides his face because he looks like a clone of Madara



The _*whole point*_ of the mask was to hide his face to keep his identity a secret all these decades (until he decided to reveal himself to the kages_.

If he is a clone of Madara, everyone would know what he looks like, hence the need of the mask and the Tobi persona.


----------



## ? (Jul 25, 2012)

Obito is looking like the most likely candidate right now IMO. But if the rumor is true that Tobi = Obito in the new movie, then it probably isn't Obito since  Kishi likely wouldn't reveal something that important in a filler movie.


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

@*Somnus*,
as always, tobito supporters have a bit of bullshit in almost every line  Learn to read, for the fuck's sake 



> half of his body is made of the same matter.


 Half? What half? WTF are you talking about?  Tobi clearly has both his arms made of Zetsu cells, nothing more is shown 


> Because it has been seen before that the right part of Tobi's face is human, not white and weird like Zetsu.


  Do you even know what the word "clone" means? Why in the world he should look like Zetsu if he is Madara's clone, did you even read my post? 



> left-zetsu-made part of his face, not on the human part.


 Zetsu part? Human part? WTF is this shit? 



> I think it's time more people stop acting as if it's the most ridiculous idea on earth.


 Except it is.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 25, 2012)

Trent said:


> The _*whole point*_ of the mask was to hide his face to keep his identity a secret all these decades (until he decided to reveal himself to the kages_.
> 
> If he is a clone of Madara, everyone would know what he looks like, hence the need of the mask and the Tobi persona.



that makes no sense. if he wants people to know he's Madara then he would proudly show his face to confirm it.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> The "obvious connections" are not seen by everyone, so they can't be that obvious. Obito being Tobi requires too much twisting of past events. I refuse to believe he fought Minato, summoned Kyuubi, controlled Yagura, and helped Itachi massacre the Uchiha.
> 
> Nothing I suppose, except that most other villains have had one. Can't Tobi just be evil? A complete monster you can't redeem?



Lol people accept that Itachi who is far younger than Tobi killed his elite ninja clan solo but can't believe Obito with phasing and teleportation couldn't have helped because he's too young?


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

^Except he don't want to be Madara. He wants to be No-One, that's the whole point of his world-cleansing concept. He said he is Madara only because it was necessary at the moment, but with his mask he was able to keep his "No-One" identity, also. When the the real Madara showed up, Tobi gladly came back to his old self.


----------



## ch1p (Jul 25, 2012)

IMO: Tobi having Obito's eye is almost certain. Using parts of Obito's body to sync up with the eye more easily and bypass the problems a non uchiha has with one is very likely. Tobi being Obito for real, personality and all, is about the same as before, 50-50. Thematically, it fits, but it can always be someone else (maybe Izuna).

The clone theories are possible, but it reminds me of a ligher age of the fandom, when many thought Naruto was Minato reincarnated / shrunk / clone. I can't really at it with an analytical eye ATM due to that.


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> it reminds me of a ligher age of the fandom, when many thought Naruto was Minato reincarnated / shrunk / clone.that.



Wow, sounds almost as bad as tobito 

Ok ok, it's even worse.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 25, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> The clone theories are possible, but it reminds me of a ligher age of the fandom, when many thought Naruto was Minato reincarnated / shrunk / clone.



Haha oh wow, there were actually people who thought that?


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Trent said:


> The _*whole point*_ of the mask was to hide his face to keep his identity a secret all these decades (until he decided to reveal himself to the kages_.
> 
> If he is a clone of Madara, everyone would know what he looks like, hence the need of the mask and the Tobi persona.



That really doesn't make sense. If Tobi had been Madara's clone he could have just shown his face after his proclamation. The fact that he didn't means that he only wanted the world to believe that he was Madara to goad them into this war.

Also I doubt Tobi was born as no one. His actions look like those of someone who has given up hope and not like those of someone who never had any. He is someone who was erased from the shinobi world.


----------



## Hokage (Jul 25, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol people accept that Itachi who is far younger than Tobi killed his elite ninja clan solo but can't believe Obito with phasing and teleportation couldn't have helped because he's too young?



Itachi was a genius, Obito was looked down to by Kakashi and the Uchiha clan. Its like saying, if Itachi could knock Orochimaru down then why cant Anko?


----------



## Somnus (Jul 25, 2012)

Faustus said:


> @*Somnus*,
> as always, tobito supporters have a bit of bullshit in almost every line  Learn to read, for the fuck's sake
> 
> Half? What half? WTF are you talking about?  Tobi clearly has both his arms made of Zetsu cells, nothing more is shown
> ...



That's some nice train of thought you have going 

You're making stuff up as much as you accuse me of doing. Why the hell would Tobi be a clone of Madara. For what purpose ? 

Besides by your logic. Tobi is a Zetsu-Madara clone...so he's still Zetsu (with a makeover and the power of who he copies) just like Zetsu-Kisame clone was...then we have a Zetsu-Madara clone in charge of Zetsu himself. That's retarded to say the least.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Hokage said:


> Itachi was a genius, Obito was looked down to by Kakashi and the Uchiha clan. Its like saying, if Itachi could knock Orochimaru down then why cant Anko?


Looks at Naruto part 1, looks at current Naruto, looks at this post. 



Faustus said:


> ^Except he don't want to be Madara. He wants to be No-One, that's the whole point of his world-cleansing concept. He said he is Madara only because it was necessary at the moment, but with his mask he was able to keep his "No-One" identity, also. When the the real Madara showed up, Tobi gladly came back to his old self.


You must be really stupid if you think like this. 
Anyways if your gonna literally take w/e Tobi said= I am no one, i don't want to be anyone.
So why does he want to be an anyone if hes already a no one?


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Besides by your logic. Tobi is a Zetsu-Madara clone...so he's still Zetsu (with a makeover and the power of who he copies) just like Zetsu-Kisame clone was...then we have a Zetsu-Madara clone in charge of Zetsu himself.



 Still trying to put the words into my mouth? Why so obsessed with Zetsu? Cut it out, I was talking about Zetsu-like cells, not about the character known as "Zetsu". 

And that means "Zetsu" is only the _method_, the base of the cloning mechanics used to create Tobi. 

That saying, he doesn't even need to have the same power as Zetsu. Sure, he has some form of Mokuton, because Zetsu cells are Mokuton-based. BUT THAT'S ALL. _*There must be also Uchiha's DNA in the mix, one form or another.*_ This is Tobi's main difference from the character known as Zetsu and his "perfect copies".



loool3 said:


> So why does he want to be an anyone if hes already a no one?



Try rereading previous chapter, this time using your brains


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

tobi being obito will ruin everything for me. i have seen 4785337897 threads about Tobi being obito. it made me hate obito


----------



## Faustus (Jul 25, 2012)

Prince Vegeta said:


> tobi being obito will ruin everything for me. i haven seen 4785337897 threads about Tobi being obito. it made me hate obito



There actually were 4785337*9*97


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Faustus said:


> Try rereading previous chapter, this time using your brains


Or you should do that and figure out that the line he says doesn't have to do anything about being a clone but being a nameless regular ''hero'' Shinobi.

''I am no one, i don't want to be any one'' ''theres no more hope in this world''  ''this world doesn't need heroes nor the future anymore'' ''my words, the words of a no one'', yes yes they are completely reffering Tobi being a clone, *kugh* *kugh*. 

Oh wait, didn't Tobi also used to say being Madara for nearly a few hunderds chapters, but no, is that also the reason why you switched to the Tobidara clone theory lol.
Anyways talking about using your brain in this case.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres nowhere stated whenever Madara did die.



We can calculate the time as following:



> He(Madara) stated that he died shortly after he obtained rinnegan. And Nagato was 8-10(maybe a little more maybe less) years old when he first awaken Madara's rinnegan. So Madara must have died until that time.
> 
> Kisame was 32 years old when he died. If we consider that Jiraiya was around 25-30 years old when he trained Nagato and others in rain willage, and if we remember that he was 54 when he died.
> 
> ...



Here in this picture, Kisame seems at least 17-20 years old.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Or you should do that and figure out that the line he says doesn't have to do anything about being a clone but being a nameless regular ''hero'' Shinobi.
> 
> ''I am no one, i don't want to be any one'' ''theres no more hope in this world''  ''this world doesn't need heroes nor the future anymore'' ''my words, the words of a no one'', yes yes they are completely reffering Tobi being a clone, *kugh* *kugh*.
> 
> ...



Lol your right.  If he was a Madara clone wouldn't it have been a better story to just unmask himself looking like an old Madara or Frankenstien Madara and then have the real Madara be summoned by Kabuto?

Clearly, Tobi is someone with his own vested interest in the Moons Eye Plan not just a clone.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> We can calculate the time as following:
> 
> 
> 
> Here in this picture, Kisame seems at least 17-20 years old.


It isnt confirmed when he died, its just argueable that he might have died when Nagato was a kid.
Like i said in my previous post i believe this Madara went to Nagato's country to look for him but he end up dying without finding the adult Nagato, thats why he did make the ''that brat has grown'' comment.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol people accept that Itachi who is far younger than Tobi killed his elite ninja clan solo but can't believe Obito with phasing and teleportation couldn't have helped because he's too young?


Age isn't a problem, it's why. In fact, Itachi was convinced he's Madara, he named his accomplice to Sasuke, but that's when the Tobi/Madara story made sense. Now we have a character who lies through his teeth. Good job, Kishi.

I also wonder why Minato suspected Madara. Maybe having abilities that only he has demonstrated? Now, it's possible that Madara passed on this knowledge (if he wasn't dead), but Obito gaining the power to extract and summon Kyuubi in a year? "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?".. Another lie I suppose. 

The way Yagura was controlled is very similar to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami. Maybe just a coincidence. Also, we're meant to believe that Obito traveled to Kirigakure and became acting Mizukage? Obito - instigator of the Bloody Mist!


----------



## Hero (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


the elder son of the sage


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> Age isn't a problem, it's why. In fact, Itachi was convinced he's Madara, he named his accomplice to Sasuke, but that's when the Tobi/Madara story made sense. Now we have a character who lies through his teeth. Good job, Kishi.
> 
> I also wonder why Minato suspected Madara. Maybe having abilities that only he has demonstrated? Now, it's possible that Madara passed on this knowledge (if he wasn't dead), but Obito gaining the power to extract and summon Kyuubi in a year? "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?".. Another lie I suppose.
> 
> The way Yagura was controlled is very similar to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami. Maybe just a coincidence. Also, we're meant to believe that Obito traveled to Kirigakure and became acting Mizukage? Obito - instigator of the Bloody Mist!


Uchiha+Senju dna allows you to controle Kyuubi which Tobi has.


----------



## ch1p (Jul 25, 2012)

Faustus said:


> Wow, sounds almost as bad as tobito
> 
> Ok ok, it's even worse.





First Tsurugi said:


> Haha oh wow, there were actually people who thought that?



The theories worked on very good assumptions actually. I remember I loved some of them because they explained bad writing (5-6 in this list), although I was in the Yondaime is Naruto's papa camp from the beginning. They were very popular theories.


Naruto and Minato looked the exact same. I remember people used to bring in the Ino-Shika-Chou and Fugaku as different enough from their children to claim such likeness was just not possible. The blood type was the same as well (both B).
Naruto had no parents and no one ever mentioned them. Furthermore, it was too much of a coincidence that Naruto was a new born baby at the time of Kurama's attack. Minato being Naruto's father theory was bashed relentlessly due to this. Connected to this, there were theories about the Uzumaki clan not being mentioned therefore not existing and furthermore, that Minato / Hiruzen had had the idea of naming Uzumaki Naruto after the symbol on the Leaf ninja's jackets, therefore making Naruto a product of the village.
The Death God sealing technique put things inside of the one that sacrificed his soul, it wasn't interchangeable. Therefore, who had the Kurama within him, had to be Minato. Furthermore, Minato had survived the contract because Kurama can't be killed since he was a mass of chakra / hatred.
Hiruzen, Jiraiya and Kakashi had never been gave Naruto much attention when he was a child because they were somewhat freaked out by what Naruto really was. Eventually though, Hiruzen put him in his old student's team and Jiraiya took him in as his student again.
Naruto wants to be Hokage so badly because uncounsciously, he was aware he had already taken the vow to protect the Leaf, and so his wish to keep doing his work manifested in this way.
Naruto learnt Kage Bunshin and Rasengan so quickly and easily because he had already learnt these techniques before. Although he had forgotten it, his body and brain still "remembered" uncounsciously. Everyone's surprise at Naruto's rapid growth was also tied to this.
Minato can't be Naruto's father because that would mean Naruto was born from greatness and destined to greatness, and that goes against his assessment at Neji's fight.

Things such as, what about Minato's missing body and the frog contract being obsolete were totally disregarded.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Uchiha+Senju dna allows you to controle Kyuubi which Tobi has.


And how/when did Obito get Senju dna? Let me guess... from Zetsu? Am I right?

It's all very predictable now.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> And how/when did Obito get Senju dna? Let me guess... from Zetsu? Am I right?
> 
> It's all very predictable now.


Zetsu, it's confirmed that it contains Hashirama''s Dna, and also confirmed that you can controle the Kyuubi with both of the Dna's.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It isnt confirmed when he died, its just argueable that he might have died when Nagato was a kid.
> Like i said in my previous post i believe this Madara went to Nagato's country to look for him but he end up dying without finding the adult Nagato, thats why he did make the ''that brat has grown'' comment.




Re-read following manga page:



Madara confirms himself that he dies shortly after he awakened rinnegan.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Zetsu, it's confirmed that it contains Hashirama''s Dna.


Yeah, but is it confirmed that Zetsu found Obito?

These kind of arguments go nowhere because it's really just circular logic.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


could be kagami


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Re-read following manga page:
> 
> 
> 
> Madara confirms himself that he dies shortly after he awakened rinnegan.


I actually don't support that Madara literally gave his own eye but rather in some experimental way.
Thats why the long haired guy still had the Sharingan instead Rinnegan.
Imo Madara+Orochimaru both used Nagato as some experimental to awaken the Rinnegan, right after it was succeeeded Madara used it on himself.
But thats just a large gap to confirm yet since we don't know whether he really was the long haired masked man, but from the details we've seen from the long haired guy it suggest him being the real Madara somehow.



Easley said:


> Yeah, but is it confirmed that Zetsu found Obito?
> 
> These kind of arguments go nowhere because it's really just circular logic.


No, but why should it?
Tobi clearly has Zetsu arms, Obito's body was crushed (not completely) thats why he replaced them with Zetsu arms obviously.
Who else of the Tobi candidates would cut off their arms just to replace them for Zetsu arms?


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> All the theories until now posted IM*O* have less proof (or none whatsoever) than the Tobi=Obito.



You know what opinions are like?


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> No, but why should it?
> Tobi clearly has Zetsu arms, Obito's body was crushed (not completely) thats why he replaced them with Zetsu arms obviously.
> Who else of the Tobi candidates would cut off their arms just to replace them for Zetsu arms?


Tobi's entire body could be made of Zetsu goo. We just don't know yet. And the premise itself relies on Zetsu finding Obito which is very random.

Wouldn't Konoha try to recover his sharingan? You know, to prevent secrets falling into enemy hands?


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi's entire body could be made of Zetsu goo. We just don't know yet. And the premise itself relies on Zetsu finding Obito which is very random.
> 
> Wouldn't Konoha try to recover his sharingan? You know, to prevent secrets falling into enemy hands?


Exactly, but Kakashi always used to go to the Konoha's heroes memorial stone instead his grave which implies that Obito's body wasn't returned by Konoha.
It could have been another rage for Obito for being left behind like that especially by his sensei.
And no his whole body isn't made out of Zetsu goo, somehwere on the Minato fight he started bleeding; 



He's bleeding as well as leaking Zetsu goo, my guess is that the shoulder part was bleeding.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I actually don't support that Madara literally gave his own eye but rather in some experimental way.
> 
> Thats why the long haired guy still had the Sharingan instead Rinnegan.
> Imo Madara+Orochimaru both used Nagato as some experimental to awaken the Rinnegan, right after it was succeeeded Madara used it on himself.
> But thats just a large gap to confirm yet since we don't know whether he really was the long haired masked man, but from the details we've seen from the long haired guy it suggest him being the real Madara somehow.



There is a contradiction here:

If you were right about the experiment Tobi could obtain about 1000 Rinnegan with sharingans come from Uchiha massacre.



> Let me say a few things about your theory:
> 
> - More than one Tobi idea is really good
> - Experiment idea is great but IMO you should think in opposite direction:
> ...


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> There is a contradiction here:
> 
> If you were right about the experiment Tobi could obtain about 1000 Rinnegan with sharingans come from Uchiha massacre.


And what good would that make him?
He would just risk losing all these Rinnegan to others.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And what good would that make him?
> He would just risk losing all these Rinnegan to others.



If you've already one rinnegan or possibility to make your own, you wont try to steal them from a dead person(Nagato). It's obvious that Tobi doesn't know how to obtain the Rinnegan.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> If you've already one rinnegan or possibility to make your own, you wont try to steal them from a dead person(Nagato). It's obvious that Tobi doesn't know how to obtain the Rinnegan.


But we're talking about Madara not Tobi.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

What differences are there between them? Isn't Tobi his partner?


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> What differences are there between them? Isn't Tobi his partner?


That still doesn't mean that Madara would pass such an important thing Tobi, especially on a case when Tobi betrays Madara which actually did happen.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> That still doesn't mean that Madara would pass such an important thing Tobi, especially on a case when Tobi betrays Madara which actually did happen.



Don't agree.

Tobi hasn't betrayed Madara so far. Also, IMO, to die by trusting someone is the deepness of the reliance.


----------



## Samehada (Jul 25, 2012)

It has to be Obito's eyes...

What is more strange, how the hell Tobi has such a connection to Kakashi and now Gai. Izuna, Kagami, or w/e the theories say doesn't explain how Tobi can have such a connection with these major characters.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


I believe he is Uchiha Izuna, but a weakened version when compared to his past.


----------



## auem (Jul 25, 2012)

tobi is uchhiha senbei...


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 25, 2012)

I believed it was Izuna or Kagami. It's clearly not Madara because Kishi wouldn't be milking this for all its worth if he just look like Madara. Now I'm starting to consider Tobi being Obito a good possibility. The evidence is definitely leaning towards him. At worst, someone is just using Obito's body. One thing for certain he must be someone important for Kishi keeps us wondering who he is.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Don't agree.
> 
> Tobi hasn't betrayed Madara so far. Also, IMO, to die by trusting someone is the deepness of the reliance.


What are you talking about? Tobi _has_ betrayed Madara.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

How has Tobi betrayed Madara again? sorry I'm just ignorant to this.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Lelouch71 said:


> I believed it was Izuna or Kagami. It's clearly not Madara because Kishi wouldn't be milking this for all its worth if he just look like Madara. Now I'm starting to consider Tobi being Obito a good possibility. The evidence is definitely leaning towards him. At worst, someone is just using Obito's body. One thing for certain he must be someone important for Kishi keeps us wondering who he is.



It's Konohamaru's father


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How has Tobi betrayed Madara again? sorry I'm just ignorant to this.


He didn't resurrect him with Rinne Tensei. And Kabuto said that Tobi wouldn't act according to plan.

Also, Tobi's no loyal dog.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He didn't resurrect him with Rinne Tensei. And Kabuto said that Tobi wouldn't act according to plan.
> 
> Also, Tobi's no loyal dog.



Nagato didn't Rine tensei Madara. It wasn't Tobi's fault that Nagato used it on Konoha. Tobi was gonna use Rine tensei to bring back Madara or at least he wanted Nagato to save it's use for Madara.

And after he found out that Kabuto had Madara in his possession, he didn't even have the Rinnegan yet. And if Madara is on the battle field would RInne tenseing Madara even work considering that Madara's soul is bound to a dead body??

Rinne tenseing Madara would most likely revive a dead body with no soul at all.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jul 25, 2012)

We should collect all known clues for each identity on one post, or have one post for all the clues for each character.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

That's actually a great idea ^


----------



## Shaz (Jul 25, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> We should collect all known clues for each identity on one post, or have one post for all the clues for each character.




I've suggested this so many times, yet people are never civilised. 


I've made a list in the past like this, a month or two ago, though I've lost it somewhere in the old thread.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I've suggested this so many times, yet people are never civilised.
> 
> 
> I've made a list in the past like this, a month or two ago, though I've lost it somewhere in the old thread.


Like someone's gonna take the time to think of every single clue for each character and put it into one post, should it all even be under the character limit. I might give it a try later though....


----------



## Shaz (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Like someone's gonna take the time to think of every single clue for each character and put it into one post, should it all even be under the character limit. I might give it a try later though....




Mine was barely under the character limit, to the point I actually had to shorten it so it barely made sense at the beginning in grammar, to fit it in one post.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 25, 2012)

With the increasing amount of evidence that's being thrown at us, I can see why most people would believe that Tobi is Obito.

The way I see it though is that the more hints that Kishi throws at us that make it incredibly obvious that Tobi is Obito, the more chance it has of not being true in the end. It just seems far too obvious at this point, even for Kishi. Why would he basically ruin the surprise of the mask removal by dropping incredibly obvious hints that basically let everyone already know who's under there without removing it? Where is the shock factor in that?

I think Kishi is personally going out of his way to make it seem like Obito to throw us off, and to make the actual reveal seem, well...shocking.

With that being said, I'm expecting either Izuna, or the Madara Clone at this point, the former being even more likely than the theory I've held on to for quite a while.

But if it ends up being Izuna I'd still be pleased. Brothers cheating death and planning for nearly a century in the shadows sounds incredibly badass for me.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 25, 2012)

There are no hints that Tobi is Obito. Tobito fans take coincidences as evidence for one of the most absurd theories I've read. Tobi fits best as either Izuna or Kagami. At least someone of Minato's generation or older for a series of reasons including being able to meet Madara.


----------



## kyuubinaruto12 (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


Madara's essence and memories in a Zetsu fixed Obito's body using his eye and contains his memories before his death


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 25, 2012)

Somnus said:


> Even though in my opinion by each chapter we get more and more hints that Tobi is Obito, many users still manage to dismiss each hint with their solutions.
> 
> My question is for those people who do you think Tobi really is. I feel that most come up with these solutions because they DON'T want Tobi to be Obito than rather just observing what is going on in the manga. While Tobi=Obito has been collecting tons of "coincidences" for quite some time.
> 
> ...


an uchiha with no eyes....so that makes izuna or shisui.  given that shisui has been mentioned so many times and the speed fight of minato and tobi, i'm leaning towards shisui.  a shinobi who likes to work in the shadows and being a true shinobi means being faceless....or something to that effect that danzo mentioned, which seem to parallel shisui's philosophy from what little bits we know of him.....of course, i think he went psycho like most uchihas....


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> There are no hints that Tobi is Obito. Tobito fans take coincidences as evidence for one of the most absurd theories I've read. Tobi fits best as either Izuna or Kagami. At least someone of Minato's generation or older for a series of reasons including being able to meet Madara.



Yes it's a coincidence that Kakashi was given an eye by the only unconfirmed dead Uchiha with any type of serious panel time and a Uchiha with near the same power appears wearing a mask that dominates the opposite eye.  It's coincidence that this Uchiha knows Kakashi's power won't work on him despite never having it used on him.  It's coincidence that this Masked Uchiha has personal feelings and knowledge towards Kakashi who's known to be a loner.  

It's coincidence that this masked Uchiha is a in a high power battle and Kakashi is given a power up and chakra boost to be in a god tier fight he shouldn't be in for the likely reveal.  It's a coincidence that the masked Uchiha MS pattern is hidden and the only unaccounted for MS pattern is the opposite of Kakashi.  It's a coincidence that Rin's death is a mystery for no reason also happens to be paneled unconfirmed dead Uchiha's love and was promised to be protected by Kakashi.



jgalt7 said:


> an uchiha with no eyes....so that makes izuna or shisui.  given that shisui has been mentioned so many times and the speed fight of minato and tobi, i'm leaning towards shisui.  a shinobi who likes to work in the shadows and being a true shinobi means being faceless....or something to that effect that danzo mentioned, which seem to parallel shisui's philosophy from what little bits we know of him.....of course, i think he went psycho like most uchihas....



Izuna maybe, Shisui had his eye plucked by Danzo.  Tobi's been using his eye before and after that happened.  Not to mention I doubt he could trick Itachi either.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 25, 2012)

jgalt7 said:


> an uchiha with no eyes....so that makes izuna or shisui.  given that shisui has been mentioned so many times and the speed fight of minato and tobi, i'm leaning towards shisui.  a shinobi who likes to work in the shadows and being a true shinobi means being faceless....or something to that effect that danzo mentioned, which seem to parallel shisui's philosophy from what little bits we know of him.....of course, i think he went psycho like most uchihas....



Shisui is confirmed dead, his body was actually recovered. Not sure if Izuna was confirmed dead but I think it says he died in battle. Also, if he were alive he'd be really old. Tobi doesn't feel like an old person at all


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 25, 2012)

Check this out:



The left one, look at his outfit.....



And now, look at Hiruzen's outfit..

Exactly same but I don't know if we can consider him Hiruzen's son...


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

*A Comprehensive List of All the Hints for Each Possible Tobi Identity.*

*Tobi identity hints:*

** This list will only include actual things that seem to hint at a certain character. Not fan assumptions. (Well, technically, all of this is an assumption, but I'm talking about things that seem to directly link a character to Tobi. You know what I mean...)

* I will not be listing the cons for any of the theories.



Now that that's cleared up, here's the list:*



*Suspect #1: Uchiha Izuna*



** When Tobi told Sasuke that Izuna willingly gave up his eyes, he clenched his arm. This could suggest that he is someone who was personally very offended or upset with that action.*

** If Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan via transplanting his eyes into him, then technically, Nagato could have Izuna's eyes. This explains why Tobi said that "They were mine to begin with."*

** Tobi and Izuna have near identical height and weight. Tobi is the same weight as Izuna(55.9 kg), and he is only 0.2 inches taller than him.(Tobi is 175.0 cm, whereas Izuna is 174.8 cm.)*



*Suspect #2: Kagami Uchiha*



** His name means "mirror". This could allude to the fact that Tobi was, in a way, "mirroring" Madara. This also fits with how Kishi sometimes uses the name of a character to describe that character him/herself.*



*Suspect #3: Shisui Uchiha*



** Tobi controlled Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage. Mei Terumi suspected it to have a connection to Shisui's Mangekyou jutsu, Kotoamatsukami.*

** Itachi's description of Shisui's idea of a true shinobi sounded alot like Tobi. "A nameless shinobi who protects peace from the shadows." Tobi is, in a sense, nameless, as we don't know his true identity as of yet. And his twisted sense of peace is indeed shrouded in shadows.*



*Suspect #4: Obito Uchiha*



** Obito gave Kakashi his left eye. That eye has been shown to have Space-Time altering capabilities. Coincidentally, Tobi's right eye is the one he uses for his Space-Time Ninjutsu.*

** Tobi's first two masks were orange. Obito wore orange highlights. This insists a similar color preference.*

** Tobi and Obito have the exact same hair style and hair color.*

** Tobi's name spelled backwards in Japanese is literally "Bito".*

** Tobi and Kakashi have had about 4 encounters now. And pretty much every time they've encountered each other, Tobi has done/said something directly to Kakashi that seemed to shock him.*




*Spoiler*: _And now, the last suspect_ 



*Suspect #5: Kishi*



** Kishi once said in an interview that he puts a little of himself into every character. Now, we've recently seen that Orochimaru has the ability to put some of himself into someone via the curse mark. But there is already some of Kishi in every character. So, it's simple. Kishi just took part of himself out of one of his characters, and used it to manifest himself in his own manga.*

** Now, here's something you probably didn't know. Ever since "NARUTO" was created, Kishi's characters haven't been doing what he wrote into the story. They don't listen to him at all. The manga we've been reading hasn't been written. It's just the characters doing everything of their own accord. That's why Kishi wants to do the Moon's Eye Plan, to get all his characters under his control and finally write his manga the way he wants it.*




*So, that's it for my list. Hope you liked it.*​


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

I can't believe you actually put Kishi as an identity theory for Tobi


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

You forgot something Obitouchiha111, 

In the Izuna theory, Izuna gave Madara his eyes basically committing suicide amongst the Uchiha. He did this not nly because he was his older brother, but more importantly because Madara was the clan leader. Thus this act was really for the clan. The fact that the clan later turned their back on Madara is like the clan turning their back on Izuna's sacrifice, which greatly gives Tobi or Izuna the motives of hating the Uchiha, and hating the whole shinobi system in general because it was created by Senju.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> You forgot something Obitouchiha111,
> 
> In the Izuna theory, Izuna gave Madara his eyes basically committing suicide amongst the Uchiha. He did this not nly because he was his older brother, but more importantly because Madara was the clan leader. Thus this act was really for the clan. The fact that the clan later turned their back on Madara is like the clan turning their back on Izuna's sacrifice, which greatly gives Tobi or Izuna the motives of hating the Uchiha, and hating the whole shinobi system in general because it was created by Senju.


That's a very valid point, but it's not neccesarily a hint that leads to his character and was in the manga. It's just speculation on his motive.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's a very valid point, but it's not neccesarily a hint that leads to his character and was in the manga. It's just speculation on his motive.





> * Tobi's first two masks were orange. Obito wore orange highlights. This insists a similar color preference.



My point was no more speculation than this^ though...


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> My point was no more speculation than this^ though...


What I was put was  hint that they have a similar color preference. I didn't say it was absolutely confirmed that they did. Although, it's likely seeing as how they both wear the color. It's not like that helps the theory anyway, it's just a little hint.

I wrote that post completely unbiased and put all the intentional hints I could think of for each character.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What I was put was  hint that they have a similar color preference. I didn't say it was absolutely confirmed that they did. Although, it's likely seeing as how they both wear the color. It's not like that helps the theory anyway, it's just a little hint.
> 
> I wrote that post completely unbiased and put all the intentional hints I could think of for each character.



Fair enough


----------



## Kid (Jul 25, 2012)




----------



## son_michael (Jul 25, 2012)

there;s other hints for the obito side such as tobi standing next to wall of boulders or obito being the uchiha equivalent to Naruto. 

these are potential hints in favor of the tobito theory. If I think of anymore ill post them.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

son_michael said:


> there;s other hints for the obito side such as tobi standing next to wall of boulders or obito being the uchiha equivalent to Naruto.
> 
> these are potential hints in favor of the tobito theory. If I think of anymore ill post them.


This one right? 



Dat boulders and non scarred right face.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi controlled Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage. Mei Terumi suspected it to have a connection to Shisui's Mangekyou jutsu, Kotoamatsukami.



A powerful genjutsu must have been used on Yagura. Like Kotoamatsukami. He's a Jinchuriki, but if the victim is unaware it's an illusion they won't attempt to break it. Perfect for long term control. Shisui "erased his existence from history" and had no eyes! Perfect for implants. Ao also recognized Shisui's chakra when he saw Danzou. He's using his arm and eye, but Ao referenced the Mizukage too. Is it the same jutsu?

For some reason, I can't rule Shisui out.


----------



## SaiST (Jul 25, 2012)

In case it hasn't been brought up yet, I'd like to present  in support of TobIzuna.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

SaiST said:


> In case it hasn't been brought up yet, I'd like to present  in support of TobIzuna.


It would make more sense for Kishi to put small Tobizuna hints in his own manga instead lol.


----------



## omonija (Jul 25, 2012)

tobi being obito's dad makes the most sense.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

SaiST said:


> In case it hasn't been brought up yet, I'd like to present  in support of TobIzuna.


Very interesting indeed! Could it be that simple? wouldn't surprise me, people tend to overthink things.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> A powerful genjutsu must have been used on Yagura. Like Kotoamatsukami. He's a Jinchuriki, but if the victim is unaware it's an illusion they won't attempt to break it. Perfect for long term control. Shisui "erased his existence from history" and had no eyes! Perfect for implants. Ao also recognized Shisui's chakra when he saw Danzou. He's using his arm and eye, but Ao referenced the Mizukage too. Is it the same jutsu?
> 
> For some reason, I can't rule Shisui out.


Yeah, but how could someone as renowned as Shisui be controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing his absence? 

Also, Shisui's body was found. 

And Tobi was using his Space-Time eye before and after Shisui lost both his eyes.


----------



## Easley (Jul 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It would make more sense for Kishi to put small Tobizuna hints in his own manga instead lol.


Well, I think the point is that Kishi gets inspiration from many sources. Why not reuse a few names, eh? Like a homage. He did that with Son Goku.


----------



## Talis (Jul 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> Well, I think the point is that Kishi gets inspiration from many sources. Why not reuse a few names, eh? Like a homage. He did that with Son Goku.


Yeah maybe names but not a masked mans identity.
Theres basically only 2 things confirming Izuna theory and one of them is even on the edge to say being confirmed since Tobi was talking about ''mine eyes'' in Madara's perspective so therefore it puches the Izuna's eyes theory away, anyways theres no reason for Izuna having a Zetsu merged body plus he is confirmed died twice, and no he isn't even ressurected lol Madara was clearly sad whenhe sad that Izuna did die.


----------



## NW (Jul 25, 2012)

omonija said:


> tobi being obito's dad makes the most sense.


Tobi's not going to be a new character. Also, what evidence do you have for this claim?

Obito would definitely make more sense.



loool3 said:


> Yeah maybe names but not a masked mans identity.
> Theres basically only 2 things confirming Izuna theory and one of them is even on the edge to say being confirmed since Tobi was talking about ''mine eyes'' in Madara's perspective so therefore it puches the Izuna's eyes theory away, anyways theres no reason for Izuna having a Zetsu merged body plus he is confirmed died twice, and no he isn't even ressurected lol Madara was clearly sad whenhe sad that Izuna did die.


In defense of the Izuna theory, the databook says that Izuna died in battle. We don't know what the extent of those injuries were. Maybe he somehow survived, and he needed Zetsu goo to repair him. Keep in my mind that I do not support the Izuna theory. in fact, I think it's quite stupid. But I'm just saying.



Tazmo said:


> Tobi is Obito.


Even Tazmo thinks so.


----------



## Joai (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't care what anyone has to say...it has to be someone that kakashi knows or someone who has known about him the whole time he grew up....it has to be someone who can control both eyes.....we will know soon...


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

problem with izuna theory is bigger than the obito theory. Madara HIMSELF confirmed his death here who hasn't been given a reason to lie. He doesn't have to masquerade as himself or hide who he really is. because he IS madara.

PlOtHoLe?! 

At least obito has possible explanations such as never dying.


But I do say izuna is a second or third possibility behind obito in likelyness


----------



## sasukefan88 (Jul 25, 2012)

does anyone else think that its strange that madara in his golden age would give his rinnegan to a young nagato then allow nagato to wander around unsupervised?


----------



## Shaz (Jul 25, 2012)

For Kagami I would just list motives if I was you, since he's had so little panel time they're not really hints at all. He seems quite unlikely at this point.

In seems like Obito due to the chapter before the latest. Though I think there is a catch. It's not only Obito alone in terms of mind.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 25, 2012)

sasukefan88 said:


> does anyone else think that its strange that madara in his golden age would give his rinnegan to a young nagato then allow nagato to wander around unsupervised?



knowledge that just possessing the rinnegan would allow a untrained child with no knowledge whatsoever beat trained chuunin ninjas and above with ease makes it a safe bet it will be fine. and grow with hatred in a war torn nation.



MissinqNin said:


> For Kagami I would just list motives if I was you, since he's had so little panel time they're not really hints at all. He seems quite unlikely at this point.
> 
> In seems like Obito due to the chapter before the latest. Though I think there is a catch. It's not only Obito alone in terms of mind.



has kagami even had a panel of dialogue? i honestly don't remember lol.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 25, 2012)

I guess tobi and madara has same face. Tobi may used shape shifting technique.


*Spoiler*: __ 




If tobi's mask is broken later in the manga, we will see madara's face and we are like wtf?


----------



## SaiST (Jul 26, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> problem with izuna theory is bigger than the obito theory. Madara HIMSELF confirmed his death Now here's the S/T barrier. who hasn't been given a reason to lie. He doesn't have to masquerade as himself or hide who he really is. because he IS madara.
> 
> PlOtHoLe?!
> 
> At least obito has possible explanations such as never dying.


Madara also happened to gain access to ocular powers that granted him the power of resurrection shortly before his death. That, combined with whatever he was doing with Hashirama's genetic material he was harvesting, could fill in a lot of gaps present with Izuna's confirmed death.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 26, 2012)

one question to tobito believers.

you are saying tobi's space time is obito's mangekyou sharingan right?
Tobi is spamming space time tech as hell. How come his mangekyo didn't lose its eye sight???????? how come he didn't go blind????????
Fuck hashirama dna. It has nothing to do with ms powers. Don't tell me that answer


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 26, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> one question to tobito believers.
> 
> you are saying tobi's space time is obito's mangekyou sharingan right?
> Tobi is spamming space time tech as hell. How come his mangekyo didn't lose its eye sight???????? how come he didn't go blind????????
> Fuck hashirama dna. It has nothing to do with ms powers. Don't tell me that answer



who knows, thats for kishi to answer. the fact is that the s/t tech is a sharingan tech. thats the only explanation we got so far for the swirl being oriented around it. and we never see the eye during the swirl. for all we know the ms is activated just for that instant. it IS an ms tech since regular sharingans aren't special.  currently he has a rinnegan, and he has had a sharingan behind his left eye constantly rotating them. so maybbe he has only been seeing through that one eye and just looked through the mask since sharingans have xray vision. 
there's lots of reasons. and it works for ANY identity he could be on why he isn't blind.



SaiST said:


> Madara also happened to gain access to ocular powers that granted him the power of resurrection shortly before his death. That, combined with whatever he was doing with Hashirama's genetic material he was harvesting, could fill in a lot of gaps present with Izuna's confirmed death.



R U KIDDING ME!? you REALLY  want to get into that? You don't think I myself already thought of that possibility. but it states RIGHT THEREthat the ONLY thing he left was his eyes and their power. not a resurrected corpse or anything of the sort. just eyes. and Madara hasn't lied once yet.


----------



## SaiST (Jul 26, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> R U KIDDING ME!? you REALLY  want to get into that? You don't think I myself already thought of that possibility. but it states RIGHT THEREthat the ONLY thing he left was his eyes and their power. not a resurrected corpse or anything of the sort. just eyes. and Madara hasn't lied once yet.


I think you're kind of missing the point of that statement. And I wouldn't be surprised if the sub-par translation had something to do with it.

Madara's belief is that the only power Izuna left for his big brother to inherit upon his death was from his eyes, just as he believes Hashirama's vitality-rich chakra is the only real power he left behind. He's denying this concept of _"will"_ having anything to do with _"power"_, he's insisting that _"power"_ must be a corporeal thing... Just as Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan, and Hashirama's genetic material were to him.

Madara resurrecting his little brother at a later time would not conflict with this.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi is Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Obito

thats why Kakashi and Tobi have similar MS jutsu


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 26, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> Tobito  fans take coincidences as evidence for one of the most absurd theories  I've read.



So what? This isn't about hair anymore. The Tobito theory has evolved  enough that luck is no longer the sole potential determinant of its success. 

I understand your support for the Izuna theory, but I'm ready to flush Kagami down the toilet. While other theories require connecting dots and filling some rabbit holes, the Kagami theory requires creating dots, connecting them, and filling a hole larger than all of the Moon's craters combined. 

If Tobi was Kagami, Kishimoto would have to shove down our throats tons of new, significant, sensible information on a villain who's potentially fighting his last battle, lest his readers feel trolled. That in itself is a huge risk.



Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> you are saying tobi's space time is obito's mangekyou sharingan right?



No. It's an unnecessary assumption.


----------



## kyubix2 (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi = Madara. The body we know is in part Zetzu, we see that in manga and anime. Part of his body can be a clone, i think madara while resurrected said something about wooden clones, tobi might be a madara wooden clone, like hashirama clones, maybe.

In one chat with kabuto, he say that tobi is madara, tobi seemed to agree... and at same time he was surprised by kabuto showing him what we later know was the body of real madara. 

I'm not sure what the hell is tobi talking about his body , except for the zetsu arms he have or had, but his mind is clear to be Uchiha Madara's mind, Tsunade say that too.

Tobis body could be his brother, or some other uchiha. 

But in any escenario, i wouldn't say he is obito, no his mind i'm SURE,  but his body either.

Obitos body was too young to be tobi's, and tobi is playing before obito's death. (tobi vs Minato, the same zetsu arms). Obito's mind also is like naruto, he think very much like naruto do, and he never do something like be the Villain, less this one. 

Maybe, just maybe, if he do not are madara, he could be one of the sages elder sons.


----------



## Easley (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi's pocket dimension and intangibility are far more mysterious than space-time (teleport). They might be an extension of it but right now they are unparalleled abilities. I've seen/read plenty of sci-fi where dimensions exist outside of time, so it's not a stretch that time stands still in this place. 

Now, I know Tobito supporters can use this: "oh, that's how he improved so fast, he trained in his pocket universe!"... but it can also mean that Tobi is from any era and not look a day older. okay, I'm reaching, but even having access is crazy enough. It must serve a purpose other than holding captives.

His intangibility is even more puzzling. Where does this come from? An innate ability or something that he learned? I doubt it's a sharingan power.

I think we're gonna get a shocking twist. He's too hax for rational explanation.


----------



## Ten Ten Tobi (Jul 26, 2012)

*Tobi's true identity*

*Rin sounds like rinnegan > The rinnegan is purple> Rin had purple face paint > Rin had the rinnegan > Rin was the SOTSP > Rin was team members with obito > Rin gave Obito the rinnegan. (obviously)
*

Now that i've explained the basics we can move onto the complicated part.
Shortly after Rin gave obito the rinnegan, Obito went to the Ichiraku Ramen to eat. The ramen guy learned of obito's rinnegan at this point and tried to take them, only to be defeated by obito. Obito realized realized that the rinnegan would draw danger to him and decided to use his old eyes for the time being. Obito then put the rinnegan in a glass of water next to his bed .The Ramen guy would not simply accept defeat and formulated a plan to claim the rinnegan for himself. The ramen guy decided to disguise himself as a ninja from the Hidden Stone Village and kidnap Rin while on a mission knowing that it will lure obito to him. Obito decided to go after rin. Obito and Kakashi were able to save rin. Now they were exactly where the ninja from the hidden stone (ramen guy) wanted them. At this point he used a Cave-in-no-jutsu to make the roof of the cave they were in collapse in an effort to trap obito. Obito gave kakashi one of his eyes ... blah blah blah. Later the ramen guy used dig-up-no-jutsu to get to obito's dead body. At this point he realized that obito's rinnegan must be in another location (his house). The ramen guy took obito's body back to his evil lair of ramen and left it there while he searched for the the rinnegan at obito's house. The ramen guy finds the rinnegan and goes back to his lair. The ramen guy needed obito's body in order to fullfil the next part of his plan. He reconstructed obito's body with the one thing he had mastered, ramen. Obito's body had now become a half ramen-half human super being. The ramen guy then used the rinnegan to bring obito back to life and placed a genjutsu over obito to make him do the ramen guy's bidding. The ramen guy decided to cleverly rename obito tobi to throw everyone off. Tobi and the ramen guy secretly trained for months in their lair in order for tobi to master his space time jutsu. Tobi perfected this jutsu and used it to go back and time and give the Ramen Guy's rinnegan to Nagato. He then used this jutsu to carry out other tasks such as kidnapping naruto right as he was born. The ramen guy himself was growing old and needed someone to take over for him. He decided to have a child which he later named Ten Ten (after the ten tails). Ten Ten secretly trained with her father the ramen guy to become a strong ninja. Ten Ten was told to pretend to be the most useless ninja in the world so as to never draw suspicion towards herself. The ramen guy taught Ten Ten how to use powerful Genjutsu to control tobi. Everything was falling into place. Tobi's half ramen- half obito body controlled by Ten Ten would go on to do all the dirty work needed. Mean while the ramen guy stayed in the Hidden Leaf Village in order to build a strong relationship with Naruto (the Jinchuuriki). Ten Ten grew bitter over the years becuase no one cared about her which explains why tobi (controlled by Ten Ten) lashed out at Gai (her sensei) and said he's never good with remembering faces.

*But why does the Ramen Guy want to put everyone under a genjutsu? SIMPLE! So they'll all buy more ramen.
*
*TL;DR: Rin gave obito the rinnegan. Tobi = half obito, half ramen .The ramen guy is the true mastermind. Ten Ten (the ramen guy's daughter) is in control of tobi.*


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi's space/time jutsu really doesn't fit any specific Sharingan level.

It's too unique to be a standard Sharingan jutsu, he uses it too often for it to be an MS jutsu, and there's no plausible way Tobi could have EMS.

My guess is it's an MS jutsu but Tobi's Senju DNA prevents degradation.


----------



## Awesome (Jul 26, 2012)

It's not like Tobi was super strong when he fought Minato. Minato had the upper edge anyway. He could control the Kyuubi? Impressive. He had some decent taijutsu.

The only thing Tobi had going for him there was the ST phasing, and everything else he had when fighting was subpar. ST phasing made up for a lot of his strength back then. He didn't have much going for his fighting style.

Beginning of post-TS Sasuke with ST phasing could have done just as well against Minato.

The strength argument is bad and you should feel bad for using it. Use different arguments.


----------



## HK-47 (Jul 26, 2012)

Ten Ten Tobi said:


> *Rin sounds like rinnegan > The rinnegan is purple> Rin had purple face paint > Rin had the rinnegan > Rin was the SOTSP > Rin was team members with obito > Rin gave Obito the rinnegan. (obviously)
> *
> 
> Now that i've explained the basics we can move onto the complicated part.
> ...


Ramen guy/Tobi theory, I call dupe/troll.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 26, 2012)

Ten Ten Tobi said:


> *Rin sounds like rinnegan > The rinnegan is purple> Rin had purple face paint > Rin had the rinnegan > Rin was the SOTSP > Rin was team members with obito > Rin gave Obito the rinnegan. (obviously)
> *
> 
> Now that i've explained the basics we can move onto the complicated part.
> ...


da fuq i just read


----------



## Hokage (Jul 26, 2012)

I really dont understand the ones insisting on Obito's theory

a) Obito had the will of fire and was fiercely loyal to his mates AND the village. Why would he betray Konoha? Why would Madara risk his moon plan by exposing himself to him in the first place?

b) Kakashi would have never left Obito to die alone. He stood there right till his final minutes

c) Why would Madara who hated the Uchiha clan for betraying him, save and involve a crippled Uchiha in his plan?

d) How is it possible that Obito (who was considered average by both his mates and the Uchiha clan) was able to develop T/S jutsu at a level that is better then that of geniuses like Tobirama and Minato. Some may say that the sharingan did the trick. However, Madara, Itachi, Sasuke and Kakashi, all had the sharingan and no one was able to develop such skill. What turned Obito from average and naive fighter who loved his village to a lethal, experienced and ruthless one?

Whoever Tobi is, he's ruthless, lethal and brilliant. He's a guy who knows the Sharingan/Senju cells at a level which is at par with that of Madara and had been involved in the moon plan for quite some time. He's also a guy that Madara trusted, since one word in the wrong direction and at the wrong time could ruin their plan. All tips lead to one person and that is not Obito.


----------



## Undead (Jul 26, 2012)

Ten Ten Tobi said:


> *Rin sounds like rinnegan > The rinnegan is purple> Rin had purple face paint > Rin had the rinnegan > Rin was the SOTSP > Rin was team members with obito > Rin gave Obito the rinnegan. (obviously)
> *
> 
> Now that i've explained the basics we can move onto the complicated part.
> ...


W-What.....


----------



## Hokage (Jul 26, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi's pocket dimension and intangibility are far more mysterious than space-time (teleport). They might be an extension of it but right now they are unparalleled abilities. I've seen/read plenty of sci-fi where dimensions exist outside of time, so it's not a stretch that time stands still in this place.
> 
> Now, I know Tobito supporters can use this: "oh, that's how he improved so fast, he trained in his pocket universe!"... but it can also mean that Tobi is from any era and not look a day older. okay, I'm reaching, but even having access is crazy enough. It must serve a purpose other than holding captives.
> 
> ...



Or maybe its a sharingan power after all. Lets face it, if Tobi = Izuna then we're talking about a guy whose been around (and in optimal senju body condition) for more time then Madara (who died at one point), Itachi and co. At MS level Izuna was at Madara's level. Imagine what a couple of more decades, with part of his body being Senju (Zetsu spare parts) and with years practicing his T\S jutsu could unleash.


----------



## Escargon (Jul 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi is Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Obito
> 
> thats why Kakashi and Tobi have similar MS jutsu



Problem is that Kagami got introduced years later. Why hide someones identity to show him in a few pages?

I know this happens in the mangas, for example, the dude who dies at the first page, the one who has no information, no backstory, turns out to be the final villain. But i have yet to see any character get introduced years later, bro.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 26, 2012)

Man, if Kishi is gonna pull a Masquerade route I'd so laugh my ass off.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

SaiST said:


> I think you're kind of missing the point of that statement. And I wouldn't be surprised if the sub-par translation had something to do with it.
> 
> Madara's belief is that the only power Izuna left for his big brother to inherit upon his death was from his eyes, just as he believes Hashirama's vitality-rich chakra is the only real power he left behind. He's denying this concept of _"will"_ having anything to do with _"power"_, he's insisting that _"power"_ must be a corporeal thing... Just as Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan, and Hashirama's genetic material were to him.
> 
> Madara resurrecting his little brother at a later time would not conflict with this.


No. Just no. That would be the hugest retcon in manga history. All these confirmations of his death. Databook, he was in a coffin, Madara said he was dead and all that was left of him was his eyes. Just... no. It wouldn't even be a shocking reveal. No one there would recognize him. 

Apparently, Madara's nerdy looking younger brother is so hax that he personally knows Kakashi and can stop Kamui at will. 

Dat Izuna.



jacamo said:


> Tobi is Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Obito
> 
> thats why Kakashi and Tobi have similar MS jutsu


So... why does his S/T come from only one of his sharingan?



Hokage said:


> I really dont understand the ones insisting on Obito's theory
> 
> a) Obito had the will of fire and was fiercely loyal to his mates AND the village. Why would he betray Konoha? Why would Madara risk his moon plan by exposing himself to him in the first place?
> 
> ...



a) I've got a good explanation for this but since people continue to use this argument, I'm just gonna let you find out for yourself.

b) What are you talking about? He jumped off the boulder cave in with Rin as soon as those other Rock Ninjas came.

c) He either saved him and decided to manipulate his hatred(seeing as how he was crushed by rocks) or sensed that he had strong sharingan powers. C'mon, he's Madara. Ya know he could do it.

d) Some mangekyou have their own unique abilities. Obito's are those Space-Time abilities. With enough training, he could have become adept at it. Eye techniques aren't that hard to master. And besides, pupils surpassing their masters is a running theme in this manga, so Obito's Space-Time abilities surpassing his sensei would make sense.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 26, 2012)

Why do you think that Izuna would give his eyes to Madara?


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Why do you think that Izuna would give his eyes to Madara?


Um, because he loves his brother?

And Madara needed Izuna's eyes to continue to lead the clan. Izuna knew this.

I don't see your point...


----------



## jacamo (Jul 26, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Problem is that Kagami got introduced years later. Why hide someones identity to show him in a few pages?
> 
> I know this happens in the mangas, for example, the dude who dies at the first page, the one who has no information, no backstory, turns out to be the final villain. But i have yet to see any character get introduced years later, bro.



i dont know Escargon

i just feel that Kagami is the only candidate that doesnt need any crazy explanations to explain how its possible

Kagami is connected to so many big players, the 2 Elders, Hiruzen, Danzo, Senju Tobirama... he is also the right age to know Hashirama and Madara personally


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Um, because he loves his brother?
> 
> And Madara needed Izuna's eyes to continue to lead the clan. Izuna knew this.
> 
> I don't see your point...



We're talking about an Uchiha. When they awaken MS, they become more evil day by day.

When I think about blind Madara and Izuna with MS, I don't see any reason for Izuna to give his eyes to Madara... What's the point here? Why would he give his eyes to a blind person.

Neither Tobi or Madara, they have never talked about love for Izuna. They only talked about sacrifice of Izuna.

I don't trust their lies..



jacamo said:


> i dont know Escargon
> 
> i just feel that Kagami is the only candidate that doesnt need any crazy explanations to explain how its possible
> 
> Kagami is connected to so many big players, the 2 Elders, Hiruzen, Danzo, Senju Tobirama... he is also the right age to know Hashirama and Madara personally



Kagami was just a flashback character, you didn't even see him speaking but you're thinking that he's Tobi.

- You don't know him * There are many character that you don't know...
- He's only an Uchiha * In flashbacks, we've seen many Uchiha member...
- He's old                * There are many Uchiha older than him

I really don't understand how an unnecessary character became this popular


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont know Escargon
> 
> i just feel that Kagami is the only candidate that doesnt need any crazy explanations to explain how its possible
> 
> Kagami is connected to so many big players, the 2 Elders, Hiruzen, Danzo, Senju Tobirama... he is also the right age to know Hashirama and Madara personally


it only fits in because we don't know anything about him. If you're going to use some random fodder character as Tobi, you might as well say every fodder you see has a chance of being Tobi. Every single random fodder character. You say he could of done all this you could say the same for any fodder you see. Kagami is nothing. He has no plot relevance.

And after all this time, why _shouldn't_ Tobi's backstory be crazy?





Mugivara said:


> We're talking about an Uchiha. When they awaken MS, they become more evil day by day.
> 
> When I think about blind Madara and Izuna with MS, I don't see any reason for Izuna to give his eyes to Madara... What's the point here? Why would he give his eyes to a blind person.
> 
> ...


Well, they were still brothers, and they loved each other. Why else would Izuna give Madara his eyes. Besides, Itachi had MS and he didn't become evil.





> Kagami was just a flashback character, you didn't even see him speaking but you're thinking that he's Tobi.
> 
> - You don't know him * There are many character that you don't know...
> - He's only an Uchiha * In flashbacks, we've seen many Uchiha member...
> ...


Finally, something we agree on.


----------



## SaiST (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. Just no. That would be the hugest retcon in manga history.


... There's been much worse.



> _All these confirmations of his death. Databook, he was in a coffin_


Confirmation of his death doesn't really mean a whole lot with the Rinnegan, and Hashirama's harvested genetic material involved.

Personal bias aside, If you are willing to take such leaps in justifying the possibility of Obito surviving and embracing such a monolithic change in personality within such a short time-span, these possibilities concerning Izuna shouldn't be all that difficult to accept.



> _Madara said he was dead and all that was left of him was his eyes. Just... no._


Please review my reply to Mistshadow you just quoted.



> _It wouldn't even be a shocking reveal. No one there would recognize him._


Unless Madara manages to make it there in time for his reveal, which is quite feasible with the way the Gokage's fight with him is developing.

His presence would likely cause much drama between the two of them to ensue, since they don't seem to be on the same page anymore.



> _Apparently, Madara's nerdy looking younger brother is so hax that he personally knows Kakashi and can stop Kamui at will._


Er, that _"nerdy looking"_ lil' brother of Madara's was his equal, and took on a leading position of the entire clan alongside him, during a period of nigh-constant war.

Tobi's comment about Kakashi's life does not necessarily have to be taken as an implication of them personally knowing eachother, and willingly cancelling Kamui is still just supposition at this point.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 26, 2012)

The thing about a plot twist is it's not supposed to make sense.

Not at first anyway.

When it happens you're initially struck by a feeling of "what the fuck" and "how is this possible".

It shocks and surprises you.

Afterwards it's usually explained how or why things happened the way they did.

So searching for outcomes that make complete sense is not the right way of going about things.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

SaiST said:


> ... There's been much worse.


I was exaggerating and you know it.




> Confirmation of his death doesn't really mean a whole lot with the Rinnegan, and Hashirama's harvested genetic material involved.
> 
> Personal bias aside, If you are willing to take such leaps in justifying the possibility of Obito surviving and embracing such a monolithic change in personality within such a short time-span, these possibilities concerning Izuna shouldn't be all that difficult to accept.


Still. That would be a stupid excuse. Going so far to make him seem dead and then, "He's back, bitches."

The personality change argument doesn't mean shit. I'm not going to argue over that as there is enough to suggest at least a piece of his motive.




> Please review my reply to Mistshadow you just quoted.


I did. It wasn't convincing.




> Unless Madara manages to make it there in time for his reveal, which is quite feasible with the way the Gokage's fight with him is developing.
> 
> His presence would likely cause much drama between the two of them to ensue, since they don't seem to be on the same page anymore.


Someone in the manga needs to be shocked by the reveal. Madara sure as fuck wouldn't be shocked since he would know that Tobi is his brother.




> Er, that _"nerdy looking"_ lil' brother of Madara's was his equal, and took on a leading position of the entire clan alongside him, during a period of nigh-constant war.


So?



> Tobi's comment about Kakashi's life does not necessarily have to be taken as an implication of them personally knowing eachother, and willingly cancelling Kamui is still just supposition at this point.


Yes, it does imply that he knows him personally. How else would he know something like that? And why would Kakashi and Guy be so shocked? Those panels obviously meant something. People just don't want to accept it.



First Tsurugi said:


> The thing about a plot twist is it's not supposed to make sense.
> 
> Not at first anyway.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why I get angry at those Kagami theorists who think Kagami is the most likely answer just because "it makes the most sense."


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

I've been away from this thread for a little while now. What new theories & shitstorms have ensued guys


----------



## Talis (Jul 26, 2012)

SaiST said:


> I think you're kind of missing the point of that statement. And I wouldn't be surprised if the sub-par translation had something to do with it.
> 
> Madara's belief is that the only power Izuna left for his big brother to inherit upon his death was from his eyes, just as he believes Hashirama's vitality-rich chakra is the only real power he left behind. He's denying this concept of _"will"_ having anything to do with _"power"_, he's insisting that _"power"_ must be a corporeal thing... Just as Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan, and Hashirama's genetic material were to him.
> 
> Madara resurrecting his little brother at a later time would not conflict with this.


The point is Madara was *clearly *sad when he said that Izuna died, and why was it necessary for Madara to tell about Izuna being dead?
It was clearly Kishis intention to destroy the Izuna theory as well.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> I've been away from this thread for a little while now. What new theories & shitstorms have ensued guys


Same old shit...


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

Kagami would be bullshit. Do you guys realize that average Naruto reader wouldn't even know who the fuck he is? For that matter, even Izuna would be "Who? Ohh, Madara's brother. Huh, what the hell. Well, who cares.".

I hate the Obito theory, it is stupid makes absolutely zero sense, and even if it's explained, it would be a bullshit explanation. I have read so many literature, comics, watched series and movies and there is NO fucking way Kishimoto could make it seem logical. It could be his eye, hell even half his body, and that would be a stretch too, but him being Obito is really, really nonsensical according to all the manga evidence. This guy is OLD. Maybe not by body, but surely by spirit.

And even so, among the thousands of asspulls to make it seem okay...I think it's most likely Obito anyway. Yeah, I called ultra bull, but most other theories and possibilities, at least those mentioned on the forums, are not really options. I see people mention Setsuna or whatever. Who the fuck is he? Even I, who followed Naruto for years and years back (though I honestly now only read it to see the ending) don't know who the guy is. Why would ANYONE care when Tobi drops the mask if they see a face that no one will recognize?

Kishimoto has had Tobi's identity hidden for far too long. Any reveal is not going to be satisfactory, probably (though, in rare occasions, Kishimoto surprises). Madara's clone made of Zetsu goo makes the most sense, but it doesn't explain this hiding of the face, at least for so long. Going by the most simple rules of writing, it is someone we know and we all recognize, even the most casual readers. Going by that logic, it's Obito with 95% ultra bullshit explanation.

Honestly, I would rather see anyone with a nice explanation, but it will most likely be Obito.

Edit: Oh, and judging by the retcons on Tobi's character... I don't think this will all end well.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> I hate the Obito theory, it is stupid makes absolutely zero sense, and even if it's explained, it would be a bullshit explanation. I have read so many literature, comics, watched series and movies and there is NO fucking way Kishimoto could make it seem logical. It could be his eye, hell even half his body, and that would be a stretch too, but him being Obito is really, really nonsensical according to all the manga evidence. This guy is OLD. Maybe not by body, but surely by spirit.
> 
> And even so, among the thousands of asspulls to make it seem okay...I think it's most likely Obito anyway. Yeah, I called ultra bull, but most other theories and possibilities, at least those mentioned on the forums, are not really options. I see people mention Setsuna or whatever. Who the fuck is he? Even I, who followed Naruto for years and years back (though I honestly now only read it to see the ending) don't know who the guy is. Why would ANYONE care when Tobi drops the mask if they see a face that no one will recognize?
> 
> ...


It seems you hate pretty much every theory out there, lol.

Anyway, alot of people here have already explained how it's possible for Tobi to be Obito. Also keep in mind the fact that you're not Kishi. He's obviously hiding things from us. It won't be a bullshit explanation. If Kishi wasn't hiding any crazy facts from us, then we'd 100% know who he is. Just because you haven't researched the evidence for it enough and you think it's bullshit, doesn't mean it is. Nor does it mean that it can't happen.

And I don't see what you mean by retcon on Tobi's character. He's been a perfectly consistent character throughout the series.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 26, 2012)

It can be his body but it defiantly can't be his mind. If it is then Kishi is gonna have to do some serious, serious retcon.


----------



## Talis (Jul 26, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Kagami would be bullshit. Do you guys realize that average Naruto reader wouldn't even know who the fuck he is? For that matter, even Izuna would be "Who? Ohh, Madara's brother. Huh, what the hell. Well, who cares.".
> 
> I hate the Obito theory, it is stupid makes absolutely zero sense, and even if it's explained, it would be a bullshit explanation. I have read so many literature, comics, watched series and movies and there is NO fucking way Kishimoto could make it seem logical. It could be his eye, hell even half his body, and that would be a stretch too, but him being Obito is really, really nonsensical according to all the manga evidence. This guy is OLD. Maybe not by body, but surely by spirit.
> 
> ...


Any theory makes 1000x more sense besides the Madara clone theory.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> It can be his body but it defiantly can't be his mind. If it is then Kishi is gonna have to do some serious, serious retcon.


Why not Obito's soul? I don't see why not. Kishi won't have to do any sort of retcon.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

Since Tobi had something against the Uchiha, Izuna would fit the role because he had the same reasons as Madara


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why not Obito's soul? I don't see why not. Kishi won't have to do any sort of retcon.



So off the bat your telling me that Obito would choose to be like this without any outside interference ?


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Since Tobi had something against the Uchiha, Izuna would fit the role because he had the same reasons as Madara


Except he was seen in a coffin and the databook said he died in battle and Madara said he was dead and that all that was left of him was his eyes and he looked sad when he said it and Izuna had no lines in the manga and his name was never mentioned in the manga either and Izuna was only in a few panels so we wouldn't recognize his face.



			
				Moon Fang said:
			
		

> So off the bat your telling me that Obito would choose to be like this without any outside interference ?


Rin's death, war, and mindfucking by Madara should do the trick.

Also, parts of his earlier ideology in Gaiden seem like they could have been incorporated into his motive.


----------



## Misoxeny (Jul 26, 2012)

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I hadn't noticed this yet:

Earlier, peopled assumed Tobi's "third eye" on his new mask was just for looks, and not an actual hole. But it has been drawn as a hole. Whats up with that?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 26, 2012)

The Kagami theory is still the best one out there imo. It's plausible and it's the only theory I support. So I think Tobi is Kagami.

But something just came to my mind. What if Tobi is Kagami in Obito's body?


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Any theory makes 1000x more sense besides the Madara clone theory.



Yeah, hiding his face if he is Madara's clone would be bull, and I already said it. I just said that it makes the most sense going by the evidence we have on Tobi (obviously from Madara's era, part Zetsu, collecting eyes, Kyuubi recognized him, told Minato he was waiting a LONG time for the moment, his overall character etc). The important fact is also that Madara said that there is a secret to his body, so it is a piece of the puzzle, too, if it doesn't say that he is half Hashirama in there.

Would all that in the brackets apply to the other options?

Kagami? As I said, as good as no name. Shisui? Bullshit, going by his age in the very least, and the fact that we knew where both of his eyes went. Setsuna? Yeah, don't even know who the fuck he is. Izuna? Maybe, but still, having his face concealed again means nothing. Him and Madara look alike anyway. Not to mention, as I also said before, no casual reader will recognize Izuna. Obito? Still too young. That reminds me, how do Obito supporters explain the Kyuubi recognizing him? How do you learn to control such a creature with a regular Sharingan that fast? Obito's body was crushed, so it should have crushed his Sharingan too. If you guys base everything on "well, there is a chance that his body didn't get crushed", it's, well, a stretch assumption festival.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It seems you hate pretty much every theory out there, lol.



Yeah, I do, because no logic explains any of those. You believe that Tobi is Obito, and in the world of writing, it could be, but could it be okay? Judging by all the evidence we have, no it wouldn't, and everything you guys say is a stretch, to say it nicely. Kishimoto could make you all correct, but that doesn't meant it's logical or that it's good writing.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Anyway, alot of people here have already explained how it's possible for Tobi to be Obito. Also keep in mind the fact that you're not Kishi. He's obviously hiding things from us. It won't be a bullshit explanation. If Kishi wasn't hiding any crazy facts from us, then we'd 100% know who he is. Just because you haven't researched the evidence for it enough and you think it's bullshit, doesn't mean it is. Nor does it mean that it can't happen.



Researching the evidence led me to believe that Tobi is _definitely_ not Obito. Or, that him being Obito would be _awful_. Obito being in the story again would be okay (still a stretch for a man who died under tons of rocks who-knows-where) if Tobi wasn't shown doing all things mentioned above. This way? Uh, no.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And I don't see what you mean by retcon on Tobi's character. He's been a perfectly consistent character throughout the series.



Zetsu calling him a good boy when we all know who is the master explains the first retcon. If Kishimoto did it just to deceive us, the readers, with it, then it's not a retcon, it's worse - it's terrible writing even for a Shounen.

Another example is that Tobi told Konan that he was Uchiha Madara. They were alone and she was dying. What? Retcon or again idiocy?

Tobi told Kabuto, after finding out that Kabuto knows he isn't Madara, that he fought Hashirama. If he is Obito, that I really doubt he fought Hashirama. If he is Obito, retarded writing? Yes, sir.

And even after all I have said, I still think he will be Obito, one way or the other.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Except he was seen in a coffin and the databook said he died in battle and Madara said he was dead and that all that was left of him was his eyes and he looked sad when he said it and Izuna had no lines in the manga and his name was never mentioned in the manga either and Izuna was only in a few panels so we wouldn't recognize his face.



As Saist mentioned, Rinnegan has a power to ressurect, as for the rest the fact that the clan turned back on them is already sad and Madara has no reason to shout that the Masked Man is his long lost brother


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> The Kagami theory is still the best one out there imo. It's plausible and it's the only theory I support. So I think Tobi is Kagami.
> 
> But something just came to my mind. What if Tobi is Kagami in Obito's body?


What's the point of Tobi being an already random and completely unknown fodder character if he's in someone else's body?

And I don't see what evidence there is for the Kagami theory. I'd like a list.



tgm2x said:


> As Saist mentioned, Rinnegan has a power to ressurect, as for the rest the fact that the clan turned back on them is already sad and Madara has no reason to shout that the Masked Man is his long lost brother


Still doesn't change the fact that he had no lines and wasn't named. He's not relevant.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

I was about to tweak when spike shrike said wtf is setsuna because I thought he meant I-zuna. I had no idea Setsuna was another person's name though


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 26, 2012)

Can someone provide a picture of Uchiha Setsuna? I don't even who he is or how he looks.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Can someone provide a picture of Uchiha Setsuna? I don't even who he is or how he looks.





I believe he was an Uchiha rebel according to Tobi's flashback of the Uchiha finally realizing that Senju were keeping a close watch on them, IIRC.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Can someone provide a picture of Uchiha Setsuna? I don't even who he is or how he looks.


Here he is: 

Middle-right panel. The one in the middle. He must have made quite an impression if people thought he was tobi from one panel, and there was nothing to suggest he was anything but fodder.

I mean, damn. I'd even prefer Kagami over him.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that he had no lines and wasn't named. He's not relevant.



Izuna wasn't named?


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Izuna wasn't named?


No, he wasn't. He was just referred to as Madara's brother.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 26, 2012)

For starters I NEVER said I was an Obito supporter for ever. In Fact I go with the likelyness of Kishimoto. Will it be good writing? Not necessarily. But Obito is the Most LOGICAL at the moment in being it to save writing. and there are explanations that CAN be made after the fact which will be. flashbacks you better be prepared for. Personality is bullshit, lots of people change after TRAUMATIC circumstances.




Moon Fang said:


> It can be his body but it defiantly can't be his mind. If it is then Kishi is gonna have to do some serious, serious retcon.



Yes i can, read above. Trauma and big events cause people to change.

ALL of you are forgetting Itachi's words to Naruto that were OBVIOUS foreshadowing. When he told Naruto that if he kept going on this path of shouldering everything he would end up just like 'madara'. And this 'madara' is Tobi that he is talking about. So Obito was just like Naruto. And if he followed a similar path he would have become what he is now bent on this fake illusion of peace


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, he wasn't. He was just referred to as Madara's brother.



Yeah, which makes him definitely not Tobi. Not sarcasm, too.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, he wasn't. He was just referred to as Madara's brother.



you joke too much man


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What's the point of Tobi being an already random and completely unknown fodder character if he's in someone else's body?
> 
> And I don't see what evidence there is for the Kagami theory. I'd like a list.



Okay look. You've been hating on the Kagami theory for so long, bashing it, and also hating on the people who support it when you haven't even read it?
Come on. That's just not cool. Just because a lot of people here on this forum hate and don't support the Tobito theory, that doesn't mean you start hating on their's for no reason and think: "They're hating on the theory I believe in. My theory is the best. I'll just hate on theirs." Now don't lie to me and say that you *have* read the theory because if you actually did, then there would be no need for you to ask me to list the evidence that can lead Tobi to be Kagami. The Obito theory is not the best, neither is the Kagami theory or any other. But I'll give you the evidence list in my next post because I need to collect all info.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, he wasn't. He was just referred to as Madara's brother.



I mean at least author gave him a name
Speaking of which... how long was Kushina referred as "that kunoichi from Whirlpool country"?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Okay look. You've been hating on the Kagami theory for so long, bashing it, and also hating on the people who support it when you haven't even read it?
> Come on. That's just not cool. Just because a lot of people here on this forum hate and don't support the Tobito theory, that doesn't mean you start hating on their's for no reason and think: "They're hating on the theory I believe in. My theory is the best. I'll just hate on theirs." Now don't lie to me and say that you *have* read the theory because if you actually did, then there would be no need for you to ask me to list the evidence that can lead Tobi to be Kagami. The Obito theory is not the best, neither is the Kagami theory or any other. But I'll give you the evidence list in my next post because I need to collect all info.



 I was one of the ppl who MADE the kagami and izuna theory so popular and I don't even think its the likeliest. The theory works, but its too boring and blah to be considered 'good' writing in Kishimoto's eyes. you have to step into the authors shoes and think what would he do.





So yes I'm allowed to bash them. They are good theories until the last half year of chapters came out to give either nullification or obvious  foreshadowing and hidden connections.


Now tell me, how can THIS not be foreshadowing of Tobi's identity
567
567
567
567


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> you joke too much man


I meant they just called him Madara's brother. They never called him Izuna.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Okay look. You've been hating on the Kagami theory for so long, bashing it, and also hating on the people who support it when you haven't even read it?
> Come on. That's just not cool. Just because a lot of people here on this forum hate and don't support the Tobito theory, that doesn't mean you start hating on their's for no reason and think: "They're hating on the theory I believe in. My theory is the best. I'll just hate on theirs." Now don't lie to me and say that you *have* read the theory because if you actually did, then there would be no need for you to ask me to list the evidence that can lead Tobi to be Kagami. The Obito theory is not the best, neither is the Kagami theory or any other. But I'll give you the evidence list in my next post because I need to collect all info.


Wow. This post actually did make realize what an asshole I've been... I'm not joking. It seriously did. I need to be a better debater.

About Kagami... I did read all the "evidence" for the theory, but I don't think anything people have said even points to him. Plus, we saw his face only about once or twice. There's no way we could remember his face.

He was also introduced roughly 200-300 chapters after Tobi. It doesn't make sense.

I was just wondering if you could re-list all the evidence. I still am trying to figure out why people consider it to be so strong.

I mean, i actually used to be  a full blown Kagami supporter and against the Obito theory until A thread by Turrin and by this guy called "Bratcipheo" on another forum and this random long ass post by some guy on this forum i can't remember "converted" me. 



tgm2x said:


> I mean at least author gave him a name
> Speaking of which... how long was Kushina referred as "that kunoichi from Whirlpool country"?


Yes, but Izuna being named after the reveal is just plain silly.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yes, but Izuna being named after the reveal is just plain silly.



Looking how it was with Kushina it seems not that impossible Also Madara is heading there and may call him by name just before the cracking of the mask Or Sasuke somehow


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 26, 2012)

@ObitoUchiha111:

Here is the list:

- Kagami means Mirror in Japanese. This can refer to Kagami trying to "mirror" Madara or it can also refer to Tobi's Moon's eye plan because Tobi is trying to kinda Mirror the Infinite Tsukiyomi on the Moon.
- Kagami was in the same team as Tobirama. Tobirama was the first one to use S/T Jutsu. It's possible that Kagami learned it from him and advanced it to a whole new level.
- During the Kyuubi attack, all the elders (including Hiruzen) were present except for Danzo and *Kagami*. Why Kagami? Because he was Tobi.
 See this picture:


- Kagami's hair style looks almost the *exact* same as Tobi's.
- Kagami lived during the Second Great Ninja War, so it's possible for him to still be alive. He would be the same age as Danzo.

And that's pretty much it. Hope I didn't forget anything. If I did, I'll add on to this list.

Also, look at this image:


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Looking how it was with Kushina it seems not that impossible Also Madara is heading there and may call him by name just before the cracking of the mask Or Sasuke somehow


That's ridiculous. Izuna wouldn't shock anyone. Madara'd just be like "Izuna, fuck you, you betrayed me!" And the  the mask comes off. it's ridiculous. All this waiting. All this suspense...... And he's the brother of the guy we thought he was before.......


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> @ObitoUchiha111:
> 
> Here is the list:
> 
> ...



May work with tons of flashbacks...


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Looking how it was with Kushina it seems not that impossible Also Madara is heading there and may call him by name just before the cracking of the mask Or Sasuke somehow



Kushina's name wasn't important, nor was Minato's. Tobi's identity is in question, though, so it's very much important.

Last time I saw Madara he wasn't heading there, and him yelling out a name would be really stupid because it would ruin the "surprise" of seeing his face.

And revealing a face of a man who nobody can connect to a name is still bull, so that won't happen.

When that mask comes off, we will all know who that is. And by saying all I mean even the characters there, not just the readers, because it would be meaningless for readers to go OH! while characters go "Uh, who are you again?".

Simple logic.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's ridiculous. Izuna wouldn't shock anyone. Madara'd just be like "Izuna, fuck you, you betrayed me!" And the  the mask comes off. it's ridiculous. All this waiting. All this suspense...... And he's the brother of the guy we thought he was before.......



It may hide something else apart from the face itself



Spike_Shrike said:


> Kushina's name wasn't important, nor was Minato's. Tobi's identity is in question, though, so it's very much important.
> 
> Last time I saw Madara he wasn't heading there, and him yelling out a name would be really stupid because it would ruin the "surprise" of seeing his face.
> 
> ...



So Tobi is ramen guy after all? I mean all those characters are not that relevant


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> So Tobi is ramen guy after all? I mean all those characters are not that relevant


The only tobi candidate that's really relevant is Obito. I mean, who'd recognize any of the other ones. Unless Tobi is Sakura.


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The only tobi candidate that's really relevant is Obito. I mean, who'd recognize any of the other ones. Unless Tobi is Sakura.



Naruto: Who is that guy?
Gai: I met you somewhere in the past?
Bee: Another Uchiha kid yo~
Kakashi: Are you... Obito... with... Hashirama's wood on your... face?
*Madara appears*
Madara: Oh yeah that's that boy I randomly found and saved hating Uchiha clan during the process some years after I was presumably dead, I implanted Hashirama's wood all over his body just to grow him almost the same size my long lost brother was


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

Misoxeny said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I hadn't noticed this yet:
> 
> Earlier, peopled assumed Tobi's "third eye" on his new mask was just for looks, and not an actual hole. But I noticed that in the latest chapter, it is clearly being drawn as a hole. Whats up with that?


I think Kishi's just mindfucking us again.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> @ObitoUchiha111:
> 
> Here is the list:
> 
> ...



1. Well, I'll admit that makes sense. Pretty interesting.

2. Kagami wasn't actually on Tobirama's team. Kagami's team just teamed up with Tobirama's the during the war. There was no time for Tobirama to teach him anything.

3. All the Uchiha were missing during the attack, though.

4. No. there are distinct differences between their hairstyle. Kagami's is too curly and his sideburns are too big. 

5. That doesn't neccesarily support this theory, though.

6. That picture was taken from the anime. It doesn't prove anything.



To be honest, all this guy's got going for him is the name. Everything else is purely coincidental.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

Indeed, the only one that could "shock" the readers and especially Kakashi, is Obito.

Not that it would make the revelation any more asspullish, to me and many others at least, but it's still the most likely option.

I mean, just from the couple of chapters back we got the feeling that Tobi knows Kakashi and Gai, at least. People may call bull, but what the writer pulled with those lines actually means what I said and people are just in denial (I know, I'm an author; don't believe me, who the fuck cares). However, someone said back there that Itachi speaking to Naruto about him becoming just like Madara/Tobi is, and, from my perspective, that's wrong. It really only meant he would be just like Tobi. Which reminds me, there are two things which are really bugging me, and I think it's Kishi fail, but I won't be brash and wait - first is that Itachi should have known much more about Tobi, but for he sake of plot he said nothing, that was really pushing it author-wise. The second is, with Madara's character, why would the guy even want something as The Moon's eye plan? It just seems SO much out of character. The man loves war.

But whatever, can't type anymore.

Here's to hoping that Kishimoto does a good job with Tobi (which I really doubt, but I'll try to be nice).


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Naruto: Who is that guy?
> Gai: I met you somewhere in the past?
> Bee: Another Uchiha kid yo~
> Kakashi: Are you... Obito... with... Hashirama's wood on your... face?
> ...


Exactly.

But seriously, only one person really needs to recognize him. Kakashi would. And Kakashi's a main character so it fits.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 26, 2012)

nice posts HeLLz... i dont see why people are so against it 

i especially dont see why people keep harping on about irrelevance when Kagami is connected to some of the BIGGEST players in the manga... Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders, Tobirama, Hashirama, and Madara




another note for Kagami: the theme for the series is *bonds*

aside form other bonds.... Kishi decided to explore the father-son bond with Kakashi, so there might be a parallel with Obito

but in this case, its the son who suffers a tragic death and Obito's father is burdened with grief... Tobi is the father, Kagami



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> it only fits in because we don't know anything about him. If you're going to use some random fodder character as Tobi, you might as well say every fodder you see has a chance of being Tobi. Every single random fodder character. You say he could of done all this you could say the same for any fodder you see. Kagami is nothing. He has no plot relevance.
> 
> And after all this time, why _shouldn't_ Tobi's backstory be crazy?



quit stalking me


----------



## Shrike (Jul 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i especially dont see why people keep harping on about irrelevance when Kagami is connected to some of the BIGGEST players in the manga... Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders, Tobirama, Hashirama, and Madara



Except that it's more likely that he was just a random guy in their team because Kishimoto needed someone, and there was more probability of there being one Uchiha than not.

Nobody would recognize the said man and everyone would be like "What? Who the hell are you man? We tried all this time to drop the mask, and even the author is teasing us by tossing sentences with hints, but you are a random guy? Uh... Whatever man."

I know man, I hate the Obito crap as well, but nothing makes sense when it comes to the face hiding, which will probably lead to him being Obito through some epic bullshit explanation. And I said probably. Hoping it does not.

Edit: How the hell do people explain Tobi calling Kakashi and the others 'kids' when he never declared himself as Madara to anyone but us, the readers? Another retcon and bullshit writing, or just definitely not Obito?

Hoping it's the latter.


----------



## NW (Jul 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> nice posts HeLLz... i dont see why people are so against it
> 
> i especially dont see why people keep harping on about irrelevance when Kagami is connected to some of the BIGGEST players in the manga... Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders, Tobirama, Hashirama, and Madara
> 
> ...


I love how every time I put up an obstacle for the Kagami theory, you don't respond. And even when you do, you're telling me to "quite stalking you". WTF?! This is a forum. You're supposed to reply to people.

And about your little Kagami thing, that's a pretty big assumption seeing as how it's not even confirmed that he's Obito's father.

I'd also like to point out that the bonds between obito and Kakashi could parallel Naruto's bonds with Sasuke. Naruto defeating obito, an evil reflection of himself, would complete the theme of surpassing the previous generation, since Obito was in the generation directly before Naruto.

It would be much more central to the plot.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 26, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Except that it's more likely that he was just a random guy in their team because Kishimoto needed someone, and there was more probability of there being one Uchiha than not.
> 
> Nobody would recognize the said man and everyone would be like "What? Who the hell are you man? We tried all this time to drop the mask, and even the author is teasing us by tossing sentences with hints, but you are a random guy? Uh... Whatever man."
> 
> ...



thats the thing... Kagami is in Hiruzen's generation so it wouldnt be too crazy for Kakashi and Gai to recognise Kagami from their Anbu days


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 26, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Edit: How the hell do people explain Tobi calling Kakashi and the others 'kids' when he never declared himself as Madara to anyone but us, the readers? Another retcon and bullshit writing, or just definitely not Obito?
> 
> Hoping it's the latter.



The ones he was fighting WERE kids, kakashi was sitting idly by giving out directions during the fight to prevent them from interrupting itachi sasuke battle. 
Also he was pretending to be madara at another point and so much give the illusion of being his age.

can you give me the panels and I'll explain them better, I dont remember specificially who was present.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 26, 2012)

There's one more thing that I forgot to list in my Kagami evidence list. Tobi calls himself "Tobi" because he got it from TOBIrama to remember his fallen master.


----------



## ? (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> There's one more thing that I forgot to list in my Kagami evidence list. Tobi calls himself "Tobi" because he got it from TOBIrama to remember his fallen master.







> I would like to point out that the name Tobi isn't quite as random as it seems and that it is quite unlikely that it would stem from the Second Hokage's name.
> 
> Tobi is the Japanese name for the bird of prey know as a kite in English. The Japanese have a saying about this bird: A hawk born from a kite, referring to an extraordinary child being born from ordinary parents. After meeting Tobi, Sasuke's theme turned from snakes to hawks, making it rather obvious Tobi's name refers to this saying. Tobi can also mean jump, referring to Madara's space–time ninjutsu.
> 
> Which bring s us to the Second Hokage's name. This name is written with two kanji, 扉 (door, tobira) and 間 (space, ma). If you were to shorten his name down, it would be most natural to use the first kanji, giving the name Tobira and not Tobi.


----------



## Talis (Jul 26, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> There's one more thing that I forgot to list in my Kagami evidence list. Tobi calls himself "Tobi" because he got it from TOBIrama to remember his fallen master.


Or its just Obito taking the initial of his OWN name which makes 10x more sense.


----------



## Lurko (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi is obito in some way even if some other uchia possessed obito's body.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 27, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Naruto: Who is that guy?
> Gai: I met you somewhere in the past?
> Bee: Another Uchiha kid yo~
> Kakashi: Are you... Obito... with... Hashirama's wood on your... face?
> ...



lulz worthy


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 27, 2012)

Tobi being izuna is the only good option right now. I don't think someone like obito fits for tobi's feats. I also think that kishi is making us think tobi is obito and surprise us with someone else.

Tobi being izuna can be explained easily other than kagami,setsuna,obito or whatever.

Obito-10%
kagami or setzuna-20%
izuna-30%
madara clone-40%

I know madara clone is shit but this is the same scenario when we thought oro comes from anko's cursed seal is shit. But the author will made that happen. Casual readers and anime fans will definitely accept that.

I don't believe in time travel shit. It is only applicable for fanfiction.

regarding hiding face: Madara considered to be dead. Tobi told that he is madara when he was declaring the war.

Tobi is madara clone will surprise us. Imagine if tobi's mask falls off then we have seen madara's face and two weeks break. Imgine how forums will explode after this reveal


----------



## Easley (Jul 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But seriously, only one person really needs to recognize him. Kakashi would. And Kakashi's a main character so it fits.


After all this time, I sincerely hope that more than one person recognizes Tobi. The whole gang should be there to witness this epic moment and be part of the shock and awe. Kakashi alone being surprised just doesn't cut it. 

To be honest, I do have a growing suspicion that Tobi might be a new character. Someone that the readers won't recognize but the characters do. Like how Jiraiya knew the Rain orphans and we didn't.


----------



## Hinata Is Shikaku Nara (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm gonna laugh at you all when Tobi = Danzou theory is correct.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 27, 2012)

Easley said:


> After all this time, I sincerely hope that more than one person recognizes Tobi. The whole gang should be there to witness this epic moment and be part of the shock and awe. Kakashi alone being surprised just doesn't cut it.
> 
> To be honest, I do have a growing suspicion that Tobi might be a new character. Someone that the readers won't recognize but the characters do. Like how Jiraiya knew the Rain orphans and we didn't.



Right now, all four can recognize is sasuke. Does this mean tobi is future sasuke shit or something


----------



## Easley (Jul 27, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Right now, all four can recognize is sasuke. Does this mean tobi is future sasuke shit or something


No, I doubt we'll see any time travel or far-fetched theories such as Future Sasuke... but this is Kishimoto we're talking about. He's written things that seem totally random, like he just thought it would be "cool" to do. Danzou's arm implanted with sharingans comes to mind.

Expect the unexpected!


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm sorry if I haven't got enough time to read the whole discussion before posting... I am new to the forum (just registered 5 minutes earlier).

I voted for for Obito.

Here is my theory.
On the verge of death, Obito activated a jutsu that is suppose to place him in a reality loop (similar to Izanami), but it went haywire (accidental jutsu since he in the stage of half-death and lacking Mangyeko Sharingan), and brings his spirit to the time where the origin of the Uchiha jutsu was created. He looped back to the time of the birth of Madara and was reborn as Madara. The effect of the jutsu grants the young Madara knowledge of the future up to the time of Obito, which allow him to prepare and manipulate the events in such a way that the future will not change but it will be favorable for the Uchiha. So Tobi is actually Obito who was reverse-incarnated in the past into Madara.

Madara somehow created a way for Obito to gain his knowledge... Maybe he left behind an artifact that he knows will come in contact with Obito that will set up a time delayed jutsu that will activate in Obito's death. At the time of Obito's death, his spirit was thrown into the past, while Madara's jutsu activated, granting Madara to possess Obito's dying body (thus he was reborn).

In a way, Madara can be resurrected while Obito is alive, because Obito and Madara are 2 different body or incarnation. There would be 2 spirit too because the first spirit was a product of the jutsu loop (paradox of 2 entity existing in the same timeline). This is what happens when you loop a dream and then turn those dreams into reality--- Izanagi + Izanami combo.


Well, just something to think about, nothing too serious though. ^_^


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 27, 2012)

Gunnerwolf said:


> I'm sorry if I haven't got enough time to read the whole discussion before posting... I am new to the forum (just registered 5 minutes earlier).
> 
> I voted for for Obito.
> 
> ...



Too complex to become reality. However do you honestly think that obito had a powerful jutsu like this?


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Too complex to become reality. However do you honestly think that obito had a powerful jutsu like this?



That is one of the Paradox... He unknowingly acquired that jutsu because Madara placed it in him (from the past).

Imagine if you manage to come to the past... And you have the knowledge from the future... You can place a secret box with a record of the winning lotto combination in the ground, which you know your younger future version will eventually dig out. Then after winning that lotto, you use the money to develop and build a time machine to go to the past. Paradox.

Additionally, Madara studied the paradox that grants him knowledge of his future self as Obito and developed a jutsu that will enable him to regain past incarnation knowledge everytime he is reborn. Everytime his next reincarnation reaches a certain age, his former knowledge will awaken and he will be aware of his former selves (with corresponding knowledge). The loop will only be broken at the time that Obito (the first awareness) dies before reaching the age of awakening, wherein the Madara paradox take-over his dying body, thus the reality loop will finally ends (when Obito acknowledge himself for who he is).

It could be that at the time that Obito was dying, the Madara reincarnation was waiting in that area, waiting for that split second that Obito is between life and death, and then uses a jutsu that merged his essence into Obito and they become one.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 27, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Tobi being izuna is the only good option right now. I don't think someone like obito fits for tobi's feats. I also think that kishi is making us think tobi is obito and surprise us with someone else.
> 
> Tobi being izuna can be explained easily other than kagami,setsuna,obito or whatever.
> 
> ...



polls disagree with you bro on the %


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 27, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> polls disagree with you bro on the %



How about we making a bet?
if tobi is revealed as obito i will change my custom title as *"Loser. Lost to Mistshadow"* 
else
you have to change your custom title as *"Loser. Lost to Jayaraman MinatoItachi"* 

for one month

are you ready?????



Gunnerwolf said:


> That is one of the Paradox... He unknowingly acquired that jutsu because Madara placed it in him (from the past).
> 
> Imagine if you manage to come to the past... And you have the knowledge from the future... You can place a secret box with a record of the winning lotto combination in the ground, which you know your younger future version will eventually dig out. Then after winning that lotto, you use the money to develop and build a time machine to go to the past. Paradox.
> 
> ...



It's bit confusing. You are telling madara is obito from some altered timeline. Just tell me what happened in the very first timeline. How did obito survived in the very first timeline. ie) in original timeline madara didn't know someone called obito. How did obito survived the rocks if he didn't have a jutsu place by madara?


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> It's bit confusing. You are telling madara is obito from some altered timeline. Just tell me what happened in the very first timeline. How did obito survived in the very first timeline. ie) in original timeline madara didn't know someone called obito. How did obito survived the rocks if he didn't have a jutsu place by madara?



In theory, the timeline was not altered because Madara made certain that he do not alter any of the events in the timeline. It was a time loop wherein the events from the future causes the existence of Madara in the past which causes the existance of Obito in the future. Obito survived because the current Madara incarnation saved him and become him afterwards.

Imagine this, on the day of his death, Obito accidentally send his spirit back into the past with 2 paradox side-effect powers (transferring his knowledge to his next reincarnation and transferring his knowledge to his dying self). Every generation of his reincarnation,  he gather knowledge to improve himself until the final time that he can transfer himself to his first incarnation who will be dying (death of Obito). On the verge of dying, the Madara incarnation breaks the paradox loop by merging himself back into Obito. That Madara incarnation could be the Tobi who released the nine-tails at the time of Naruto's birth. He disappeared after that because he later merged with Obito becoming young again. Only to return when Naruto was much older.

If Obito indeed became Madara at the time of his death (or present at the time Obito was dying), then that would explain why he was not crushed to death (Madara's phase shifting ability).

Now, in order to not alter the timeline, Madara has been lying about not knowing Obito, since Obito and Madara are not suppose to have any form of interaction or connection with each other (time paradox... if he is not careful, he could wipe out his own existance).



Another possibility is that it could be Tobi (past-awared reincarnation of Obito/Madara) who cast the Izanami + Izanagi to the dying Obito to send his spirit into the dream-reality-time loop into the past using his mangyeko sharingan which is why he lost his left mangyeko eye. He then merge with the soulless Obito (without any vessel-spirit conflict since he is actually the past-awared reincarnation of Obito's spirit that was sent back into the past).


----------



## SaiST (Jul 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Still. That would be a stupid excuse. Going so far to make him seem dead and then, "He's back, bitches."


And how does Obito's situation differ?



> _The personality change argument doesn't mean shit. I'm not going to argue over that as there is enough to suggest at least a piece of his motive._


It wasn't brought up for it's merit to be questioned. If you can reach so far to find some sense of reason against that argument, accepting the possibilities concerning Izuna shouldn't be that difficult for you either—this is what I was trying to get across to you.



> _I did. It wasn't convincing._


I gave an explanation of that statement based on the context from the rest of the chapter, even Tsunade's immediate reply indicates that it relates to the discussion of _"will"_ relating to _"power"_.

Yet you are insisting that it must be taken as some kind of an absolute declaration that denies any possibility of Izuna being resurrected at a later date. If you are willing to take the time to do so, prove this to us.



> _Someone in the manga needs to be shocked by the reveal. Madara sure as fuck wouldn't be shocked since he would know that Tobi is his brother._


Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Guy are the only witnesses _currently_ there. The vast majority of the other Allied Shinobi Forces are on their way to that position right now. If Tobi's identified as Izuna, you don't think there would be anybody among that massive collection of the world's Shinobi aware of one of the first Mangekyou Sharingan users responsible for spearheading the Uchiha clan's rise to prominence alongside Madara?



> _So?_


So, attempting to discredit the guy, no matter how low-key you are about it, won't get you too far. 



> _Yes, it does imply that he knows him personally._


I didn't say otherwise. You are more than welcome to interpret it as some kind of allusion to Tobi having a more personal history with Kakashi 'n Gai. Others could see it as a familiarity based on years of observation in the shadows, among other things.



loool3 said:


> The point is Madara was *clearly *sad when he said that Izuna died, and why was it necessary for Madara to tell about Izuna being dead?


For the same reason Hashirama's death was mentioned in the page before. Please review the conversation Madara has with Tsunade through Chapters 576-577.

It may be beneficial to all of you guys misinterpreting this statement to take a look at a transcript of Viz's translation of the entire conversation.



> _It was clearly Kishis intention to destroy the Izuna theory as well._


You are imposing your view onto the statement to make it seem as such.

It does not mean what you guys think. I wish I could formulate some kind of example of what you guys are doing with it, but the coffee isn't doing it's job this morning.


----------



## KamehamehaHadoken (Jul 27, 2012)

The one thing I never got about the whole Obito theory, is explained in the chapter where we see the story of Naruto's birth. When Minato takes on Tobi near the safe house. He uses his kunai ability to warp behind Tobi to deliver a punishing and decisive blow to him.

Tobi in both the manga, and anime iterations of this event, is completely surprised that Minato can pull off such a move. He is also surprised that it was faster than his jutsu. I refuse to believe that someone from Minato's own team, raised DURING the huge ninja war would never have seen Minato use his kunai ability. The shock Tobi expresses at it alone would be enough to suggest he's not Obito.


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

KamehamehaHadoken said:


> The one thing I never got about the whole Obito theory, is explained in the chapter where we see the story of Naruto's birth. When Minato takes on Tobi near the safe house. He uses his kunai ability to warp behind Tobi to deliver a punishing and decisive blow to him.
> 
> Tobi in both the manga, and anime iterations of this event, is completely surprised that Minato can pull off such a move. He is also surprised that it was faster than his jutsu. I refuse to believe that someone from Minato's own team, raised DURING the huge ninja war would never have seen Minato use his kunai ability. The shock Tobi expresses at it alone would be enough to suggest he's not Obito.



It is possible that because the last time he saw Minato's ability, he is still the weak Obito. Throughout the years, he have gained powers and abilities that he thought that he can predict or surpass Minato... He might be surprised not because he didn't know Minato's ability, he is surprised that after all his improvement, he still cannot match and cannot predict Minato's speed and techniques.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It was clearly Kishis intention to destroy the Izuna theory as well.



This made me laugh. And by that I mean smile.

So the author is like : hey, I will definitely try to make people go on the right track about the HIDDEN identity of this guy so they don't need to think who could it be


----------



## tgm2x (Jul 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> But seriously, only one person really needs to recognize him. Kakashi would. And *Kakashi's a main character* so it fits.



Sure


----------



## Shrike (Jul 27, 2012)

About Izuna...

Yeah, it could have been him with a good explanation (for example Madara resurrected him via Rinnegan before he himself died or whatever), but then there is no point in him hiding his face. It was okay to hide it until the real Madara showed up, but after that, I don't see the point. Not to mention, he made taunts to actually remove his mask, tossing hints here and there that people would recognize him (he knows too much about Kakashi etc).

So, I don't make sense of it. Which is why it think it will be laughable development, but whatever.


----------



## The End (Jul 27, 2012)

Hinata Is Shikaku Nara said:


> I'm gonna laugh at you all when Tobi = Danzou theory is correct.



Hell yeah, this was my original theory back when his little arm-armor thing was first shown. 

Doesn't really seem to fit too well now with his whole sharingan-arm and apparent death though.


----------



## NW (Jul 27, 2012)

Easley said:


> After all this time, I sincerely hope that more than one person recognizes Tobi. The whole gang should be there to witness this epic moment and be part of the shock and awe. Kakashi alone being surprised just doesn't cut it.
> 
> To be honest, I do have a growing suspicion that Tobi might be a new character. Someone that the readers won't recognize but the characters do. Like how Jiraiya knew the Rain orphans and we didn't.


More than one person recognizing Tobi would be... I don't know, weird... Especially if Naruto recognizes him. it would completely ruin the type of battle he and Naruto are having. It's just better if Naruto doesn't recognize him.



Hinata Is Shikaku Nara said:


> I'm gonna laugh at you all when Tobi = Danzou theory is correct.






Gunnerwolf said:


> I'm sorry if I haven't got enough time to read the whole discussion before posting... I am new to the forum (just registered 5 minutes earlier).
> 
> I voted for for Obito.
> 
> ...


.................... That.............. makes no logical sense........ but +rep for lulz.



SaiST said:


> And how does Obito's situation differ?


Because there was only one instance where we were led to believe he was dead, not like Izuna who had 3.




> It wasn't brought up for it's merit to be questioned. If you can reach so far to find some sense of reason against that argument, accepting the possibilities concerning Izuna shouldn't be that difficult for you either?this is what I was trying to get across to you.


What I'm saying is that Izuna doesn't make any sense to me. He was only in a few panels, he had NO lines, and wasn't named in the manga. I highly doubt he's be relevant enough to the plot to be the main villain. The brother of Madara Uchiha being the masked man that's personally involved in the deaths of Naruto's parents is just... ugh.




> I gave an explanation of that statement based on the context from the rest of the chapter, even Tsunade's immediate reply indicates that it relates to the discussion of _"will"_ relating to _"power"_.


Sorry man, I just don't see it...



> Yet you are insisting that it must be taken as some kind of an absolute declaration that denies any possibility of Izuna being resurrected at a later date. If you are willing to take the time to do so, prove this to us.


Well, Madara looked pretty damn sad when he said that. It's just, it doesn't seem like it was meant to be interpreted as anything other than Izuna being dead.




> Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Guy are the only witnesses _currently_ there. The vast majority of the other Allied Shinobi Forces are on their way to that position right now. If Tobi's identified as Izuna, you don't think there would be anybody among that massive collection of the world's Shinobi aware of one of the first Mangekyou Sharingan users responsible for spearheading the Uchiha clan's rise to prominence alongside Madara?


It would just be a dumb reveal. All this teasing, and it's Madara's brother. He'd have no good reason to wear a mask anyway.




> So, attempting to discredit the guy, no matter how low-key you are about it, won't get you too far.


I never said it would.




> I didn't say otherwise. You are more than welcome to interpret it as some kind of allusion to Tobi having a more personal history with Kakashi 'n Gai. Others could see it as a familiarity based on years of observation in the shadows, among other things.


That was obviously meant to signify that Tobi personally knows Kakashi. That's why they were shocked and Guy asked who he was. And the  there's the scene when Kakashi and Tobi are staring directly at each other. I mean, COME ON.



tgm2x said:


> Sure


Yes. Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are the main characters. Naruto and Sasuke all have development, now Kakashi needs it. Sakura doesn't deserve development though. She's a piece of shit.


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> .................... That.............. makes no logical sense........ but +rep for lulz.



Technically Obito will be looped to the past to be reincarnated into Madara retaining all of the memory of Obito. After dying, Madara will be reincarnated into Tobi 1 (same age as the 2nd Hokage), then Tobi 1 reincarnate into Tobi 2 (same age as the 3rd Hokage), then Tobi 2 reincarnate into Tobi 3 (same age as the 4th Hokage and the one who was in the birth of Naruto). Tobi 3 then merged himself back into Obito to break the paradox loop caused by the Izanagi+Izanami combination casting.

*Obito*
reincarnated to
*Madara* _when his spirit was send to the past because of Tobi 3_
reincarnated to
*Tobi 1*
reincarnated to
*Tobi 2*
reincarnated to
*Tobi 3* _using izanagi + izanami (in order to break the looping paradox created by that spell)._
merged with
*Obito*

It could loop back into Madara if Tobi 3 didn't stop the paradox loop when he merged with Obito in his time of death, sending the spirit of Obito into a loop back to the past.
Take note that each reincarnation retains the knowledge gained by the previous incarnation, which explains why he was able to know things that his previous incarnation knows.

I guess it is too complicated, but hey, I already said it is just a theory... Just something to think about, but not take too seriously. teeheehee


----------



## NW (Jul 27, 2012)

Gunnerwolf said:


> Technically Obito will be looped to the past to be reincarnated into Madara retaining all of the memory of Obito. After dying, Madara will be reincarnated into Tobi 1 (same age as the 2nd Hokage), then Tobi 1 reincarnate into Tobi 2 (same age as the 3rd Hokage), then Tobi 2 reincarnate into Tobi 3 (same age as the 4th Hokage and the one who was in the birth of Naruto). Tobi 3 then merged himself back into Obito to break the paradox loop caused by the Izanagi+Izanami combination casting.
> 
> *Obito*
> reincarnated to
> ...


Holy shit, man. This is freaking nuts. Where did the Tobi 2 and Tobi 3 come from though. There's only one Tobi. The whole reincarnation thing went way too far. There's no way this will happen in the manga. Still, good job for putting alot of thought into it.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 27, 2012)

Don't go making this harder then it needs to be guys.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jul 27, 2012)

In favor of the Obito and Izuna theorists, I come baring information.

Out of boredom I decided to do a little researching on Izuna and Obito. Turns out they share the same birthday and bloodtype (though the bloodtype isn't the important part though the fact that they share the same birthday and blood type is interesting)

Both of them are born on February 10th. 

I went and searched their birthdays in order to find some sort of info that might shed light on the man behind the mask, and low and behold. I actually found something.

The first thing I found.

"People born on February 10 have a clear picture of what they want to achieve and how they want to get there. The pursuit of their goals is likely to take precedence over anything else."

, naruto's own chakra is being shelved

"I'm no one. I don't want to be anyone. All that matters to me is completing the moon's eye plan."

Tobi says that his goal is the only thing that matters to him. He has put it above everything else.



Then there's this.

"People born on February 10 have a charismatic charm which draws others to them."

Tobi has used many shinobi to further his plans and achieve his goals by persuading them to join his cause. A parallel to Naruto's charismatic effect.


And then this.

Symbol: The Water Carrier

This might be a bit of a stretch but, Tobi did serve secretly as the Mizukage in Kirigakure, which is a village in the land of the waves. In a sense he "carried the water" for a time.

And also.

"Lucky days: Saturday and Sunday, especially when these days fall on 1, 3 and 10 of the month"

Tobi attacked the leaf on Naruto's birthday, which happened to be the 10th of October, which means that it is possible that his birthday was on a Saturday or Sunday, which would mean that the day Tobi attacked the leaf would be one of his "lucky days".

Finally, there's this.
Lucky colors: Dark blue, orange, purple

Tobi's attire usually consists of these colors. Like his swirl mask.



And the outfit he wore when he attacked the leaf 16 years ago. A different orange mask with a cloak that had purple on the inside. (Art from Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations)



And presently, his outfit consisting of a purple Uchiha attire coupled with the rinnegan.


*Spoiler*: __ 



, naruto's own chakra is being shelved




Since Kishi likes to use horoscopes and birthdays with his characters to base them off of, (See Naruto's Sasuke's and Sakura's birthdays, their personalities and how they are compatible with one another), it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to assume that Tobi and his original identity are based off of a horoscope as well.

I am almost certain that Tobi is one of these two people now. So much of what he does fits with the horoscope and supposed personality traits of someone born on February 10th.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 27, 2012)

*Menacing Eyes*: Nice research you did there.


----------



## NW (Jul 27, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> In favor of the Obito and Izuna theorists, I come baring information.
> 
> Out of boredom I decided to do a little researching on Izuna and Obito. Turns out they share the same birthday and bloodtype (though the bloodtype isn't the important part though the fact that they share the same birthday and blood type is interesting)
> 
> ...


Wow. Just, wow, man. That was incredible... I knew they had the same birthday but never did I know all of the other things you put down.

Well, now I'm convinced that it may be Izuna as well.

I've been fighting it off for a time but I've just always had the feeling that Izuna and Obito were connected. Is they're a chance that they're both Tobi? Maybe the side of Tobi's face that we saw was Izuna's and the other half of his face belongs to Obito. That's why his two eyes appear to have different shapes.

So, maybe he's half Izuna and half Obito.

Izuna could parallel Sasuke and Obito could parallel Naruto.

I have nothing supporting this but I am led to believe this based on this and other information.(Personally, though, I'd prefer it if he was just Obito, lol.)


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 27, 2012)

Tobi is Kagami. Believe it


----------



## NW (Jul 27, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobi is Kagami. Believe it


I don't know man, I don't know... Menacing Eyes' post makes it seem pretty certain that Tobi is either Obito or Izuna. Kagami doesn't fit at all with Kishi's writing style.


----------



## Gunnerwolf (Jul 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Holy shit, man. This is freaking nuts. Where did the Tobi 2 and Tobi 3 come from though. There's only one Tobi. The whole reincarnation thing went way too far. There's no way this will happen in the manga. Still, good job for putting alot of thought into it.



I only made up Tobi 1 to 3 to represent the different generation of reincarnation. They are one person who lived on different lifespan.

Tobi 3 is the reincarnation who appears in Naruto's birth. The current Tobi is Obito. Tobi 3 save him from being crushed and sends his spirit into the past using the izanami + izanagi combination spell (looped dream reality). Tobi 3 then merged his soul back to Obito to break the paradox loop that the justu created. Thus, Obito's soul returned to his body and become whole again.

I guess you are right, this is just too complicated for the general public to relate to. It might not be a good theory to implement because it is too hard for most fans to understand. Teeheehee.


Reading thru Menacing Eyes post... If you want to know who Tobi 1-3 is, look at all the birthdays of shinobis who are born on February 10.
Hmmm. If Madara is not born on February 10, maybe Obito was not reincarnated as Madara after all. Maybe he was reincarnated as Izuna after all.


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 28, 2012)

I don't even know who Kagami is. 

Wasn't he just some background guy?


----------



## KingofVegetables (Jul 28, 2012)

*Why tobi=obito may have some merit (I hope not though)*

First of all I want to say whats up! I'm new here (although i've been coming here for a few years now) so if im posting wrong or doing anything wrong, let me know. Now back to my point. By now we all know the famous tobi line in chpt. 594 Link removed

Now I went back and read the kakashi gaiden and came across the page where the 4th hokage tells obito about opening his mouth and it is reiterated in a later chapter here
Link removed

Coincidence? maybe. But this caught my eye.
Now, im not a firm believer in the obito theory. in fact i hope its not true b/c that would be whack-est shit ever. But maybe tobi is more than 1 person or at least their conscious.

Suppose if the real madara was controlling yagura and then he created a zetsu clone with his and the 1st hokages dna. then he stumbles upon an uchiha crushed by a boulder but is able to somehow reanimate him. that could possible explain kakashi and tobi having similar abilities.

Remember, tobi has a lab full of eyes, probably uchiha eyes he got from the night of the massacre, so taking obito's damaged one isnt too farfetched.  Also, why would kishi show us half of a face that we're suppose to recognize? Even if i only saw half on my mothers face i would still know its her. The fact that we're still guessing may mean the other half we didnt see may look like someone we know. Of course, kakashi & gai never saw the half of tobi face we did, so maybe if they did it would be automatically recognizable to them (well at least kakashi given gai's problem with faces lol)

What do you guys think, cuz i know 90% of you have grown tired of this tobi thing since 1975 lol


----------



## NW (Jul 28, 2012)

I just noticed some interesting little hints.

In Tobi's fight with Konan, when she blows of the top of his mask, the outline of the top of the remains of the mask are the shape of the bottom of Obito's goggles: 

Also, remember in Gaiden when Obito said he'd become Kakashi's eye and see the future together with him? Well, Tobi said something similar: 

Lastly, Tobi's eye closing after escaping Konan's trap with Izanami looked like how obito's eye closed in Gaiden after giving Kakashi his eye: 

Now, maybe Tobi's escaping the paper bomb trap with Izanami could mean somehow that Obito giving Kakashi his eye contributed in some form to him being able to escape the boulders. I was surprised with how much this battle paralleled the end of Gaiden.


Perhaps there are more of these parallels throughout different Tobi scenes in the manga. 

Maybe I'm looking way too far into this but I just thought it was interesting and worth sharing.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 28, 2012)

Just explain, how was Obito able to see Madara before 2nd ninja war?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 28, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Just explain, how was Obito able to see Madara before 2nd ninja war?



We don't know what Madara's and Tobi's connection is besides the moons eye plan.

Madara said that Hashirama should have had subordinates to bring him back.  Just because Madara thinks it's "him" doesn't mean he's talking about Tobi.  Could have been another leader of his subordinates.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 28, 2012)

plus we don't know when Madara died, it could be befor enagato got his eyes, or after nagato got his eyes. most likely after. he could have lived all the way up until a year before the kyuubi attack


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 28, 2012)

You started again

Madara died after he got Rinnegan...


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 28, 2012)

he died not LONG after he got rinnegan, doesn't specify HOW LONG. and to a guy who was probably as old as saroutobi was in part 1 during the second ninja war, yeah 5-10 years or whatever isn't long.........

unless you have some crazy knowledge i dont know about that calculates exactly how long not long is.....

Link removed
"shortly"
but to an old man who has gone through countless battles, time doesn't run the same.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 28, 2012)

I remain with my theory, that Tobi had been both, Madara and Obito and currently is Obito.
After seeing Menacings post (repped for that) It seems more valueable.



> Madara lost at the VOTE but survived with great injuries and kept himself alive
> via zetsu goo (maybe Zetsu even is some fucked up Sharingan Jutsu, I could imagine that)
> 
> He hid his Identity from then on, and as he was dying he found a little child, Obito, so he
> helped him staying alive, with Zetsu goo as well, so he had an apprentice from then on and some time after Madara fought with Yondaime, Madara has died and placed some of his soul into Obito, who took the role of Tobi from then on.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 28, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> he died not LONG after he got rinnegan, doesn't specify HOW LONG. and to a guy who was probably as old as saroutobi was in part 1 during the second ninja war, *yeah 5-10 years or whatever isn't long*.........
> 
> unless you have some crazy knowledge i dont know about that calculates exactly how long not long is.....
> 
> ...



So you think that 5-10 years is a short period?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 28, 2012)

to someone who has lived 80+ years, yes it is.

how old are you? you are probably too young to understand the concept of time. To old people time seems to go by faster, and with how much they have accumulated,  a year to a 10 year old will seem like an eternity while to the 80 year old will seem like a week (a drop in the bucket to say).
Its all about perception as Itachi Uchiha said to Sasuke lol.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 28, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> to someone who has lived 80+ years, yes it is.
> 
> how old are you? you are probably too young to understand the concept of time. To old people time seems to go by faster, and with how much they have accumulated,  a year to a 10 year old will seem like an eternity while to the 80 year old will seem like a week (a drop in the bucket to say).
> Its all about perception as Itachi Uchiha said to Sasuke lol.



Yes, perception of time does change the older you get.


----------



## Talis (Jul 28, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Tobito confirmed haha, he doesn't get revealed in the movie.
The other masked man wasn't Shisui but a black haired Naruto just read it in another thread.
Tobito being a paralel version of Naruto basically confirmed also if the other maksed man was revealed being a black haired Naruto.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



As I suspected, that the other masked guy is one of these masked guys. About Tobito I'm not 100% sure, since it depends at whether the script is true. Just think about the Shisui part was wrong, so Obito could be wrong too. Btw,  please don't spoiler the movie.


----------



## Talis (Jul 28, 2012)

Mateush said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected, that the other masked guy is one of these masked guys. About Tobito I'm not 100% sure, since it depends at whether the script is true. Just think about the Shisui part was wrong, so Obito could be wrong too. Btw,  please don't spoiler the movie.


It could have simply changed in Shisui's case, but the masked man was simply reffered to that person.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It could have simply changed in Shisui's case, but the masked man was simply reffered to that person.



Yeah, who knows. I just wanted to explain why it can't be 100% confirmed yet, because the script translated by takL is confusing.


----------



## TobiUchiha5941 (Jul 28, 2012)

Why do people think shisui is a logical cadidate without overlooking all the plotholes? same goes for obito, I don't think rin's death alone could cause obito to want world dominaton. and wouldn't itachi recognize shisui's chakra while around tobi? but most of all.  both have no REAL motive. Id say tobi is most likely an experiment gone rogue. IMO


----------



## NW (Jul 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha5941 said:


> Why do people think shisui is a logical cadidate without overlooking all the plotholes?


Because Shisui Koto'd them into thinking he was Tobi. 





> same goes for obito, I don't think rin's death alone could cause obito to want world dominaton.


It could be a huge part of it but it's definitely not all of it. 





> and wouldn't itachi recognize shisui's chakra while around tobi?


Again, Shisui's Koto forces people to think he's Tobi, no matter what evidence there is against it. 





> but most of all.  both have no REAL motive.


Well, Obito might. Rin's death, war, and mindfucking by Madara might work.


> Id say tobi is most likely an experiment gone rogue. IMO


That would be the worst twist ever.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 28, 2012)

Itachi isn't a sensor.........so how would he recognize shisuis chakra.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 28, 2012)

*Assertion: Tobi = Obito "plot-holes"*

This is just a thread to assert the arguments that have been repeated many times. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



What this is not is a thread that says that Tobi is Obito, but rather, that he could be. It is my personal opinion that Tobi could be a lot of people at this point.

Before I start, please actually cite your refutations before you call any explanation objectively incorrect, so as to not present opinions as facts. Whether or not you buy it does not affect whether or not it's possible without any documentation, and therefore it should be respected as a possibility.

1. Motive - We've seen jutsu like Izanami, Kotoamatsukami, and whatever jutsu that Nagato used to manipulate the information available in the human brain. I personally favor Izanami, mostly because if Kabuto wants to escape from it, then he'll have to do it brainwashed.

2. His height - I've seen an argument that states that he simply had a rather extensive height spurt. Why this is often dismissed is beyond me since not only was Itachi as tall as Tobi at 14, Kakashi was apparently a member of ANBU at 14, and I'd imagine that if he didn't, to a certain degree, blend in, enemies could spot him from his height, thus rendering a ANBU uniform useless.

However, I favor the possibility that Tobi's Zetsu parts are the reason for his height, since we've seen him with Zetsu parts. If he were Obito, and Obito's initial body didn't work, which is plausible, then wouldn't adult parts suffice better than a child's?

3. Obito's intelligence - Isn't the sharingan known for its memorization capabilities? Most of what Tobi knows is public information. If he indeed knows Madara, then he could have shown him historic information just like Itachi with Sasuke.

4. Madara died before Obito was born - this is, apparently, based on what Madara said about what happened to him shortly after he had awoken his Rinnegan, and contingent upon him giving Nagato his Rinnegan.

There's actually no concrete evidence that he's given Nagato his Rinnegan, thus any claim would be an opinion, and any assertion based on that claim, in my opinion, would be baseless. It's also interesting because if we go by what Tobi has stated, then we also must assert that Nagato received his Rinnegan before Akatsuki was incepted. How could Madara have done this, according to Tobi, if, according to Tobi, he was the one to give Nagato the Rinnegan?

Unless he didn't mean it in the way that seems obvious, just like with the time in which he spurred Yahiko to start Akatsuki.

5. Tobi's capabilities - there are a plethora of reasons as to why Obito could've learned 4 jutsu. Two of which seem like jutsu that you don't "learn" as opposed to "obtain", like kkg, or weapons.

1. The sharingan helped him to learn.
2. Zetsu parts.
3. He had help.
4. He wasn't that bad to start with, only Kakashi was already ANBU level.

Let's also not forget that he didn't have the sharingan for most of the time that we saw him. When he did obtain it, he was basically a totally different ninja.

6. Kisame recognized him - Zabuza is about 26, which makes him about 4 years younger than Obito. Zabuza was about 12 when the last bloodmist exams took place, the apparent time of Tobi's control over Yagura, thus Obito would've been about 16, then.

7. Why lie to Konan if he's not Madara? - why not take off his mask if he was Madara? This is especially of interest when we consider that this came after he had just seen Kabuto resurrect basically all of Akatsuki with ET. Wouldn't it be safer just in case she became an independent vessel? And besides that, are you really suggesting that Tobi is Madara after:

1. "I am no one"
2. Madara's resurrection
3. Tobi's ignorance of ET initially, despite the fact that Madara knows its about its seals.

I'll finish with a reiteration of my own position, which is that Tobi can be just about anyone. However, I believe that it's time that we respect it as a possibility, and not write it off as objectively incorrect because of problems that already have answers. Let's also not simply write off the answers just because you may have some emotional investment against the idea, then pretend that you simply want to satisfy some vague sense of "plausibility" in the face of perfectly okay answers.




edit: sorry for the section.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 29, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I just noticed some interesting little hints.
> 
> In Tobi's fight with Konan, when she blows of the top of his mask, the outline of the top of the remains of the mask are the shape of the bottom of Obito's goggles:



Now that is a fucking good observation 0.0


----------



## Easley (Jul 29, 2012)

Naruto movie has no bearing on the manga.


*Spoiler*: __ 





loool3 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really should stop jumping to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. If I used your logic then Tobi could be Shisui, since he wasn't in the movie and vaguely mentioned in the "script". Also, I'm not sure these script notes were all genuine. Speaking like Obito is already confirmed is what I'd expect the guys on 2ch to do. Oh, and it said Madara (Obito), not Tobi. I guess they screwed up with that.

Anyway, it's just some cool ideas that Kishi wanted to write for a movie.


----------



## cms21023 (Jul 29, 2012)

*VERY quick tobi is izuna theory*

izuna has died, madara fights 1st hokage and gets rinnegan after, when hes close to dying he ressurects izuna using that rinnegan jutsu, gives rinnegan to nagato and tells izuna to use nagato to bring him back one day... Now izuna/tobi collects mad sahringans cuz he got no eyes, he def got obitos other eye... 

if you guys like these quick thought ill elaborate , but im on iphone nd its a bitch to type :/


----------



## jacamo (Jul 29, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Itachi isn't a sensor.........so how would he recognize shisuis chakra.



Sharingan can see chakra so Itachi would recognise Shisui's chakra... they were also best friends so Itachi would recognise other things apart from chakra



Easley said:


> Naruto movie has no bearing on the manga.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



so its confirmed not cannon then... thank goodness for that 

and maybe you should stop questioning the Obito guys... all they have is flimsy evidence, which isnt even actual evidence its just hints and symbolism

they cant even refute the major plotholes and timeline issues


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Sharingan can see chakra so Itachi would recognise Shisui's chakra... they were also best friends so Itachi would recognise other things apart from chakra
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think the sharingan has been shown to be able to identify people by chakra.   

Lol, we can refute pot holes but it's put off as fan fiction.  

1. Obito looks just like Tobi.
2. Tobi has the opposite eye that Obito gave Kakashi and the eye has similar powers as that Kakashi mature Obito's eye into.
3. Tobi's first shows his sharingan to Kakashi.
4. Tobi stated personal information about Kakashi in a personal angst way. 

Circumstantial evidence.

1. Tobi seems to have an obsession with doujutsu and almost exclusively uses doujutsu and uses a mask to show a Sharigan with Obito eye like power despite having another sharingan.  It's like it's a symbol of all he has left.

2.  Tobi has an anti-hero personality and considers the world miserable vs. being a power hungry take over the world type like Madara.  He sounds like someone disappointed with the world and his life and wants true peace with the Moon Eye's plan.  Which would fit an Obito who's lost his way, his body, his love and hates war and the ninja system.

3. Tobi is very sensitive about his mask. He's kept the mask on despite being revealing that he's not Tobi and being outed that he's not Madara by the real Madara appearing.  Story wise nobody would know who Tobi is if he's not Obito or double identity person which we've had not hint of.  

4. Kakashi and Guy while a good shinobi are not on the level of Tobi, Naruto and Killer Bee has been placed in the battle that will likely reveal Tobi's identity.  Leads strongly that Kakashi and Guy will be the ones who know who Tobi is when unmasked.  Kakashi was Obito's teammate and Guy would know Obito being Kakashi's rival, same age and classmate.  

I'm not going to go into plot holes because it comes down to fan fiction and opinion.  The problem I have with Obito haters are the accept theories that are nothing but a plot hole filled with fan fiction but there is little evidence supporting Tobi being anyone but Obito.  There is small evidence supporting Izuna.

Future _____.  There is nothing to support a future character being Tobi but fan fiction.
Kagami... there is no evidence supporting Kagami.
Madara clone: there is no real evidence supporting this.  There is more evidence supporting that it's not a clone.
Shisiu... Tobi used his S/T eye before and after Danzo ripped his eyes.  His body was found and Itachi confirmed it.


----------



## NW (Jul 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> and maybe you should stop questioning the Obito guys... all they have is flimsy evidence, which isnt even actual evidence its just hints and symbolism
> 
> they cant even refute the major plotholes and timeline issues


...... Obito has more evidence than any of the other candidates and you call it flimsy. May I remind you that you're supporting a theory which has NO evidence at all? You are a giant fucking hypocrite and a terrible debater. Even after people provide great amounts of evidence for Tobi being obito, you just ignore it and call it flimsy. Alot of people have already provided arguments against your so called plotholes. But you ignore them. You also ignore posts that provide arguments against your Kagami "theory". It's annoying and does not make for a good debater. If all you're going to do is annoy any challenging posts and keep posting the same shit over and over again, then stay the fuck off, pal.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Sharingan can see chakra so Itachi would recognise Shisui's chakra... they were also best friends so Itachi would recognise other things apart from chakra
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but you need to go buy a dictionary or go back to school. You know something to educate yourself. There are no plotholes. Or timeline issues. Because there CAN be explanations made for them. If there was any EVIDENCE to SOLIDIFIED that it can't be obito, then you would be right, but there ISNT. There can be speculation on possibilities, because god knows there are a wide range of possibilities and explanations for each and every single one of your supposed holes. Kishi can make it whoever he wants. but you are so hard set on it being impossible you don't know the meaning of mystery.

Was there any proof the juubi existed? No, but kishi made it so. Someone had speculated and actually had a theory on it like a year or two before it was released. And you know what, I would bet if you were here back then YOU would have been one of the many people making FUN of him. Yet he was right. So go away you ignorant troll.

I'm not saying Kagami isn't possible, it is, justnot as likely as obito. Do I like taht its Obito? Not really, but its the most likely.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 29, 2012)

Repeat "tobi" out loud fifty times without pauses.

Repeat "obito" out loud fifty times without pauses.

What do you hear?


*Spoiler*: _hint_ 




tobitobitobitobito
obitobitobitobitobito




Even real life supports Tobi=Obito


----------



## Easley (Jul 29, 2012)

When most timeline explanations are "Tobi lies" or he was acting, I'd rather not believe it. I don't blame anyone for using lies as an excuse, Kishi _has_ made Tobi into a liar, but I'll assume most things he said is true.

His dialog with Konan (I gave Nagato the Rinnegan), the comment to Kushina about how long he's waited, and clenching his arm in chapter 399. Either very good acting or a Kishi retcon.

I'm not pleased he provided backstory - I can't take a compulsive liar seriously. That stuff should be rock solid, a plain statement of fact. Tobi lying was Kishi's way of keeping the Madara reveal under wraps. Horrible writing; the twist was actually driving the plot.

It's understandable. Mangakas are under great pressure to deliver an exciting chapter each week. I bet Shonen Jump editors have more input than we realize.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 29, 2012)

Easley said:


> When most timeline explanations are "Tobi lies" or he was acting, I'd rather not believe it. I don't blame anyone for using lies as an excuse, Kishi _has_ made Tobi into a liar, but I'll assume most things he said is true.
> 
> His dialog with Konan (I gave Nagato the Rinnegan), the comment to Kushina about how long he's waited, and clenching his arm in chapter 399. Either very good acting or a Kishi retcon.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the story is a bit convoluted but he's a proven lair.

I mean right after he was shown Madara in a coffin.  He lied and said he fought the first Hokage.  I mean he could have been around if he's not Obito and there is no way for Kabuto to know if he did or not.  but it was plain to see that he was not Marada at that point to Kabuto.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Yeah, the story is a bit convoluted but he's a proven lair.
> 
> I mean right after he was shown Madara in a coffin.  *He lied and said he fought the first Hokage.*  I mean he could have been around if he's not Obito and there is no way for Kabuto to know if he did or not.  but it was plain to see that he was not Marada at that point to Kabuto.



It makes sense if Tobi really thinks he's Madara or is a part of him. It really is illogical if Tobi lied about his Hashirama fight in front of Kabuto. He shouldn't have lied to Konan as well. Fit these two pieces together and you get that he has to be Madara in some way, not that hard. But it's also possible he lied all time, which is bad written by Kishi imo.

Also Itachi admitted that all Tobi said is true. We know that he was ready to show his face to Sasuke, so it would be wierd if he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

Tobi telling us about things he did as Madara also serves to give the reader more information on Madara himself.

This is also why it's pretty easy to figure out what he is and isn't lying about.



Mateush said:


> Also Itachi admitted that all Tobi said is true. We know that he was ready to show his face to Sasuke, so it would be wierd if he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara.



Tobi didn't tell Sasuke he was Madara until after he got blasted with Amaterasu.

The only thing he told Sasuke prior was that he was an Uchiha.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi didn't tell Sasuke he was Madara until after he got blasted with Amaterasu.
> 
> The only thing he told Sasuke prior was that he was an Uchiha.



Yeah, that was my point. After Amaterasu he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara, though seconds before he was ready to reveal his identity? Yeah, right. Good written by Kishimoto, NOT.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 29, 2012)

Easley said:


> When most timeline explanations are "Tobi lies" or he was acting, I'd rather not believe it. I don't blame anyone for using lies as an excuse, Kishi _has_ made Tobi into a liar, but I'll assume most things he said is true.
> 
> His dialog with Konan (I gave Nagato the Rinnegan), the comment to Kushina about how long he's waited, and clenching his arm in chapter 399. Either very good acting or a Kishi retcon.
> 
> ...



Its not a matter of "he lies" though for obito theory, Its more a matter of him stating true things that MADARA did and taking on that persona for people to believe him. And to keep his identity a secret he still kept on with the history of being from that time because Kabuto may have known he wasn't Madara, but still didn't know exactly WHO he was. Even now we know Tobi isn't Madara, but he is keeping the mask on because he doesn't WANT people to know who he is or them guessing. 
So yes, many of those plot holes aren't necessarily lies, but rather taking credit for Madara. Which he could easily have learned from Madara himself when being trained by him.
So how old Tobi is is a mystery, which is what makes it possible for him to be Obito. 
Kisame didn't meet Tobi until AFTER the Kyuubi attack when we already know he existed.  And he broke the Mind Reading Jutsu for a reason, because his face ISNT Madara but rather someone Aoba would recognize. Aoba is in the same age range as Kakashi and Gai, so it would be natural for him to know who Obito was also. Thus the reason for his face being so important. It wouldn't be a big deal for Konoha Ninja's to see Izuna Kagami or a Zetsu Cloned Madara. BUT it IS a big deal for it to be Obito,  a former comrade in arms.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yeah, that was my point. After Amaterasu he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara, though seconds before he was ready to reveal his identity? Yeah, right. Good written by Kishimoto, NOT.



I'm not seeing how that's bad writing.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I'm not seeing how that's bad writing.



He wanted to introduce himself to Sasuke, so even after the Amaterasu he should tell Sasuke he's someone other than Madara. Why change his mind after Amaterasu?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> It makes sense if Tobi really thinks he's Madara or is a part of him. It really is illogical if Tobi lied about his Hashirama fight in front of Kabuto. He shouldn't have lied to Konan as well. Fit these two pieces together and you get that he has to be Madara in some way, not that hard. But it's also possible he lied all time, which is bad written by Kishi imo.
> 
> Also Itachi admitted that all Tobi said is true. We know that he was ready to show his face to Sasuke, so it would be wierd if he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara.



Tobi seems to be someone who had a life not a clone and his personality is dramatically different from Madara.  Madara is a diva warlord.  Tobi sarcastic, depressed, manipulator.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> He wanted to introduce himself to Sasuke, so even after the Amaterasu he should tell Sasuke he's someone other than Madara. Why change his mind after Amaterasu?



He said himself that the only reason he survived was because he kept secrets from Itachi.

So, the Amaterasu trap could have made him reconsider revealing all of his secrets to Sasuke, and instead keep him at arm's length.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Tobi seems to be someone who had a life not a clone and his personality is dramatically different from Madara.  Madara is a diva warlord.  Tobi sarcastic, depressed, manipulator.



I agree, actually. Tobi probably is someone other than Madara, but I think he was brainwashed by Madara himself, just so he could take care of Nagato and all other things until Madara's revival. It could explain why Tobi may thinks he is "Madara" because his brain is fucked.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

Tobi doesn't think he's Madara though, he openly admitted he was only using the name to stoke tensions and further his ambitions.


----------



## NW (Jul 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I agree, actually. Tobi probably is someone other than Madara, but I think he was brainwashed by Madara himself, just so he could take care of Nagato and all other things until Madara's revival. It could explain why Tobi may thinks he is "Madara" because his brain is fucked.


It would be quite anti-climactic if the main villain of the series was brainwashed into being how he is today.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

I haven't ruled out brainwashing or mind rape, but I think if it were to be true it would be more along the lines of breaking his will and sending him into despair rather than making him think he's actually Madara or forcing him to carry out certain tasks.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi doesn't think he's Madara though, he openly admitted he was only using the name to stoke tensions and further his ambitions.



Well he didn't admitted directly, but I agree it could be he knows he really is not Madara but he somehow carries Madara's plans. I could see Madara did something like that, because who else could "take care" of Nagato and Akatsuki to carry out the plans.



			
				ObitoUchiha111 said:
			
		

> It would be quite anti-climactic if the main villain of the series was brainwashed into being how he is today.



I don't think it's anti-climactic. Tobi still is someone else, not Madara. We could still read interesting backstory about him which is different from Madara.


----------



## NW (Jul 29, 2012)

I think I've found something interesting in Gaiden. Not sure if this has been brought up before but whatever: 

Notice both times where Obito has "something in his eye", he puts the eye drops only in his right eye. I think this could be possible foreshadowing of him having space time ninjutsu in his right eye. Overall, nothing too big, but interesting nonetheless.

I also think Kakashi accusing Obito of lying about helping that old lady could have been hinting at how much of a liar Tobi is.

I'm probably looking way too deep into this, though.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 29, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm probably looking way too deep into this, though.



You are.

Looking for foreshadowing can turn up interesting results, but don't stare too deeply into the abyss, or else you might start seeing things that aren't actually there.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 29, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm probably looking way too deep into this, though.



Well, who knows  I think he just was the crybaby ninja, later he became tougher and removed the goggles.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 29, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I think I've found something interesting in Gaiden. Not sure if this has been brought up before but whatever:
> 
> Notice both times where Obito has "something in his eye", he puts the eye drops only in his right eye. I think this could be possible foreshadowing of him having space time ninjutsu in his right eye. Overall, nothing too big, but interesting nonetheless.
> 
> ...



I believe that the placement of the chapters in general is peculiar. 

To your point, a connection is possible, in my opinion.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi doesn't think he's Madara though, he openly admitted he was only using the name to stoke tensions and further his ambitions.



He didn't admit that at all, that's just Tsunade's opinion. Tobi himself didn't give any particular reason, he just started referring to himself as "no one" when he found out Madara had been revived. 

I find myself agreeing that Tobi must be Madara in some way, even if he just has Madara's memories implanted or was genjutsu'd into acting as Madara. Otherwise his dialogue with Kabuto (claiming he fought the 1st after Kabuto has already shown Edo Madara) and Konan (claiming he's Madara even when Konan is about to die) makes no sense.


----------



## Easley (Jul 29, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Its not a matter of "he lies" though for obito theory, Its more a matter of him stating true things that MADARA did and taking on that persona for people to believe him. And to keep his identity a secret he still kept on with the history of being from that time because Kabuto may have known he wasn't Madara, but still didn't know exactly WHO he was. Even now we know Tobi isn't Madara, but he is keeping the mask on because he doesn't WANT people to know who he is or them guessing.
> So yes, many of those plot holes aren't necessarily lies, but rather taking credit for Madara. Which he could easily have learned from Madara himself when being trained by him.
> So how old Tobi is is a mystery, which is what makes it possible for him to be Obito.
> Kisame didn't meet Tobi until AFTER the Kyuubi attack when we already know he existed.  And he broke the Mind Reading Jutsu for a reason, because his face ISNT Madara but rather someone Aoba would recognize. Aoba is in the same age range as Kakashi and Gai, so it would be natural for him to know who Obito was also. Thus the reason for his face being so important. It wouldn't be a big deal for Konoha Ninja's to see Izuna Kagami or a Zetsu Cloned Madara. BUT it IS a big deal for it to be Obito,  a former comrade in arms.


Tobi acting as Madara to provoke a war is acceptable, but lying to Kushina, how long he's waited? or Kisame? And Konan on her death bed. There's also Minato _suspecting_ the masked man was Madara... Itachi told Sasuke about him, that he's alive and was his accomplice and mentor. I find this bizarre. Tobi fooled everyone simply by wearing a mask?

I reread chapters 396-401 the other day and can't believe that Tobi is not Madara (or Izuna). Acting only goes so far. He sounds like someone from that era. Reciting a load of crap for Sasuke is pointless if you intend to show him your face. Itachi's trap was sooo convenient. Almost 200 chapters later and we're still waiting.

Obito is basically a Kakashi story, but since Naruto keeps threatening to break Tobi's mask, I'm pretty sure the reveal will involve him in some way. I don't believe Kishi is dropping vague Tobito hints. He's not that subtle.


----------



## Talis (Jul 29, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi acting as Madara to provoke a war is acceptable, but lying to Kushina, how long he's waited? or Kisame? And Konan on her death bed. There's also Minato _suspecting_ the masked man was Madara... Itachi told Sasuke about him, that he's alive and was his accomplice and mentor. I find this bizarre. Tobi fooled everyone simply by wearing a mask?
> 
> I reread chapters 396-401 the other day and can't believe that Tobi is not Madara (or Izuna). Acting only goes so far. He sounds like someone from that era. Reciting a load of crap for Sasuke is pointless if you intend to show him your face. Itachi's trap was sooo convenient. Almost 200 chapters later and we're still waiting.
> 
> Obito is basically a Kakashi story, but since Naruto keeps threatening to break Tobi's mask, I'm pretty sure the reveal will involve him in some way. I don't believe Kishi is dropping vague Tobito hints. He's not that subtle.


I think he might have used some jutsu as Kotoamatsukami well on everyone to trick them and making them think him being Madara.
And i think all these things which he said/told was just to distract the readers, Kishi did that probably on purpose to make the people think that Tobi was actually Madara.
Itachi's mentor was the real Madara, his appearence simply looks like him, it will just turn out as the road to the ninja movie; 2 masked men are around, 1 Tobi, 2 the real Madara.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jul 29, 2012)

*Tobi is Izuna with Obito's eye*

Well I just come up with my new Tobi theory so here it is =


*-The Man who know everything*
He knew everything about rikudou, juubi, senju, and uchiha, a deep knowledge that *real Madara* shared as well so he must be someone who ever lives in rikudou's or hashirama's era


*-working with real Madara*
its implied 1 2 3 that real Madara knew about Tobi and have some sort of connection with him
they even worked together to achieved moon eye plan, then revealed its madara who gives his eyes to Nagato and Tobi talks about how he want to revived himself (Madara) 
I believe its someone who close to Madara and that is his little brother, Izuna 


*-Rinnegan are originally his eyes
*
Well that's true because Izuna gives his eyes to Madara which then evolved into rinnegan
as he said* "they were mine to begin with"*

and it can explained how tobi can use rinnegan without any difficulty (like summon gedo mazo, six pain summon) whereas it takes nagato years to mastered it


*-Space-Time Jutsu*
He have space time jutsu that similar to kakashi's kamui, it seems centered from his right sharingan eye I believe the jutsu is actually MS jutsu, I believes Tobi stole obito's eye 

after madara takes his eyes, Izuna is eyeless so he takes other uchiha eyes instead it can explained why Tobi is obsessed with sharingan especially good ones like shisui or obito

I won't be surprised if Tobi have MS, it will have the same design as kakashi


*
-if its MS jutsu then how he don't get blind from overused it?*
its simple : Hashirama DNA
it enhanced every uchiha jutsu, as Itachi said when he explained about shisui's kotoamatsukami and when Danzo used it


*-But Izuna already dead!!*
yes its stated by Madara and tobi but they can lied, they're bad guys afterall
the pic of izuna in his coffins can be imagination and trick by Kishi
losing your eyes won't killed you, even though its stated he went to war in blind state and killed, it still don't have enough proof until we see the full story of it

*-Bad uchiha brothers
*
It mirrored sasuke/itachi, if they are good uchiha brothers then madara/izuna are bad brothers, they're like bad bandit bros who loves making trouble that you're usually saw in movies, its add more depth to Uchiha History


----------



## NW (Jul 29, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi acting as Madara to provoke a war is acceptable, but lying to Kushina, how long he's waited? or Kisame? And Konan on her death bed. There's also Minato _suspecting_ the masked man was Madara... Itachi told Sasuke about him, that he's alive and was his accomplice and mentor. I find this bizarre. Tobi fooled everyone simply by wearing a mask?


I have something to counter this, but I'm not gonna waste my time typing it out because people are too ignorant to listen.



> I reread chapters 396-401 the other day and can't believe that Tobi is not Madara (or Izuna). Acting only goes so far. He sounds like someone from that era. Reciting a load of crap for Sasuke is pointless if you intend to show him your face. Itachi's trap was sooo convenient. Almost 200 chapters later and we're still waiting.


I'm not sure what you're getting at with most of this but about Tobi showing Sasuke his face, well, that's not what he was going to do. He was just showing Sasuke his sharingan to gain his trust.



> Obito is basically a Kakashi story, but since Naruto keeps threatening to break Tobi's mask, I'm pretty sure the reveal will involve him in some way. I don't believe Kishi is dropping vague Tobito hints. He's not that subtle.


No, Obito's not just a Kakashi story. That should be evident as he was an exact parallel to Naruto.

Also, villains don't have to be directly connected to Naruto to be central to the story. Orochimaru wasn't. Nagato wasn't. It's the characters themselves that make great villains. Personally, I think it would be great writing if the main villain is a fallen friend of Naruto's sensei and a pupil of Naruto's FATHER. 

A theme of this manga is surpassing the previous generation. By beating Obito, Naruto would be beating the generation just before him, tying up the theme, as well as basically beating an evil/failed version of himself. Obito was just like Naruto and was an Uchiha, and I believe there's a reason for that.





Edo Madara said:


> *-But Izuna already dead!!*
> yes its stated by Madara and tobi but they can lied, they're bad guys afterall
> the pic of izuna in his coffins can be imagination and trick by Kishi
> losing your eyes won't killed you, even though its stated he went to war in blind state and killed, it still don't have enough proof until we see the full story of it


No, madara would have had no reason to lie about Izuna being dead. Also, we saw Izuna in a coffin in a flashback. If it's seen in a flashback, that's still canonical proof. 



> *-Bad uchiha brothers
> *
> It mirrored sasuke/itachi, if they are good uchiha brothers then madara/izuna are bad brothers, they're like bad bandit bros who loves making trouble that you're usually saw in movies, its add more depth to Uchiha History


It would make more sense for Tobi's true identity to have an impact on at least one of the main characters, and it has to be one that is currently fighting Tobi. Right now, there are only 2, Naruto and Kakashi.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jul 29, 2012)

*Tobi is Izuna with Obito's eye*

Well I just come up with my new Tobi theory so here it is =


*-The Man who know everything*
He knew everything about rikudou, juubi, senju, and uchiha, a deep knowledge that *real Madara* shared as well so he must be someone who ever lives in rikudou's or hashirama's era


*-working with real Madara*
its implied 1 2 3 that real Madara knew about Tobi and have some sort of connection with him
they even worked together to achieved moon eye plan, its revealed its madara who gives his eyes to Nagato and Tobi talks about how he want to revived himself (Madara) 
I believe its someone who close to Madara and that is his little brother, Izuna 


*-Rinnegan are originally his eyes
*
Well that's true because Izuna gives his eyes to Madara which then evolved into rinnegan
as he said* "they were mine to begin with"*

and it can explained how tobi can use rinnegan without any difficulty (like summon gedo mazo, six pain summon) whereas it takes nagato years to mastered it


*-Space-Time Jutsu*
He have space time jutsu that similar to kakashi's kamui, it seems centered from his right sharingan eye I believe the jutsu is actually MS jutsu and I believes Tobi used obito's eye but that doesn't mean he's obito

after madara takes his eyes, Izuna is eyeless so he takes other uchiha eyes instead it can explained why Tobi is obsessed with sharingan especially good ones like shisui or obito

I won't be surprised if Tobi have MS, it will have the same design as kakashi


*
-If its MS jutsu then how he don't get blind from overused it?*
its simple : Hashirama DNA
it enhanced every uchiha jutsu, as Itachi said when he explained about shisui's kotoamatsukami and when Danzo used it


*-How this guy can controlled Bijuu like a pet ?*
Tobi have ability to controlled bijuu like Madra, as we seen when he controlled kyubi in flashback and controlled other bijuu in his fight against bee/naruto

sasuke showed similar ability when he surpressed kyubi's chakra , kyubi said something about how sasuke have similar chakra
to madara's

it makes me think that uchiha ability to controlled biju is actually because of their powerfull chakra

Izuna is Madara's brother so it can be they have similar chakra as well besides izuna's ability and jutsu still mysterious


*-But Izuna was already dead!!*
yes its stated by Madara and tobi but they can lied, they're bad guys afterall
the pic of izuna in his coffins can be imagination and trick by Kishi
losing your eyes won't killed you, even though its stated he went to war in blind state and killed, it still don't have enough proof until we see the full story of it


*-Bad uchiha brothers
*
It mirrored sasuke/itachi, if they are good uchiha brothers then madara/izuna are bad uchiha brothers, they're like bad bandit bros who loves making trouble that you're usually saw in movies, its add more depth to Uchiha History


*So what do you think ?*


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 29, 2012)

I believe Izuna is very, very dead. Madara has no reason to lie about it.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 29, 2012)

Dunno if you're new, but for future reference, we're trying to keep Tobi identity theories .


----------



## ovanz (Jul 29, 2012)

I agree in that part that Madara/Izuna could fit the brother theme with itachi/ sasuke, but still have my doubts.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jul 29, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> I believe Izuna is very, very dead. Madara has no reason to lie about it.



Kishi can playing with us, madara can be lied and izuna in coffin just imagination

for me Tobizuna still more makes sense than tobito theory


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 29, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> Kishi can playing with us, madara can be lied and izuna in coffin just imagination



Madara hasn't lied once though. So you're saying the guy who has told the truth constantly lied about this one thing..........


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 29, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi acting as Madara to provoke a war is acceptable, but lying to Kushina, how long he's waited? or Kisame? And Konan on her death bed. There's also Minato _suspecting_ the masked man was Madara... Itachi told Sasuke about him, that he's alive and was his accomplice and mentor. I find this bizarre. Tobi fooled everyone simply by wearing a mask?



Don't know what you mean with Kisame, but I see no reason why Kushina was any less a liability than any other person that he's lied to, and his fight with Konan was after he'd seen Kabuto resurrect all of Akatsuki, with suspicion's of its "risk".

Only for us to find out that it does have risk. The exact type of risk that would justify Tobi lying to Konan, in my opinion - the Edo summon becoming an independent vessel.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> It makes sense if Tobi really thinks he's Madara or is a part of him. It really is illogical if Tobi lied about his Hashirama fight in front of Kabuto. He shouldn't have lied to Konan as well. Fit these two pieces together and you get that he has to be Madara in some way, not that hard. But it's also possible he lied all time, which is bad written by Kishi imo.
> 
> Also Itachi admitted that all Tobi said is true. We know that he was ready to show his face to Sasuke, so it would be wierd if he suddenly changed his mind and lied about he's Madara.



i agree, this is a plothole... not to mention Tobi says to Naruto "I see the first Hokage in you..." *in chapter 462 page 14*... to make a Hashirama comparison means Tobi has to be someone from that era 




Raventhal said:


> I don't think the sharingan has been shown to be able to identify people by chakra.
> 
> Lol, we can refute pot holes but it's put off as fan fiction.
> 
> ...





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ...... Obito has more evidence than any of the other candidates and you call it flimsy. May I remind you that you're supporting a theory which has NO evidence at all? You are a giant fucking hypocrite and a terrible debater. Even after people provide great amounts of evidence for Tobi being obito, you just ignore it and call it flimsy. Alot of people have already provided arguments against your so called plotholes. But you ignore them. You also ignore posts that provide arguments against your Kagami "theory". It's annoying and does not make for a good debater. If all you're going to do is annoy any challenging posts and keep posting the same shit over and over again, then stay the fuck off, pal.





Mistshadow said:


> I'm sorry but you need to go buy a dictionary or go back to school. You know something to educate yourself. There are no plotholes. Or timeline issues. Because there CAN be explanations made for them. If there was any EVIDENCE to SOLIDIFIED that it can't be obito, then you would be right, but there ISNT. There can be speculation on possibilities, because god knows there are a wide range of possibilities and explanations for each and every single one of your supposed holes. Kishi can make it whoever he wants. but you are so hard set on it being impossible you don't know the meaning of mystery.
> 
> Was there any proof the juubi existed? No, but kishi made it so. Someone had speculated and actually had a theory on it like a year or two before it was released. And you know what, I would bet if you were here back then YOU would have been one of the many people making FUN of him. Yet he was right. So go away you ignorant troll.
> 
> I'm not saying Kagami isn't possible, it is, justnot as likely as obito. Do I like taht its Obito? Not really, but its the most likely.




youre wrong, there are plotholes and there are timeline issues with Obito... now, of course there is evidence that supports/hints at Obito, but there is *stronger* evidence that says Tobi = Obito is impossible... i have provided manga panels as evidence of these plotholes countless times

evidence against Obito:
*chapter 509 page 4* - Tobi says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan..." so if Tobi was the one to give Nagato the Rinnegan, as stated in the manga, then Tobi at least has to be older than Nagato to have, you know, given him the Rinnegan... Obito is a plothole because he is 5-10 years younger than Nagato for crying out loud!!!  if someone is just using Obito's body? lol ok... time travel? fine... other than that, Tobi's quote right here is a glaring plothole


*chapter 501 page 7* - Tobi says "Do you have any idea how long ive waited for this moment?" for him to even say something like that clearly reflects that Tobi has had to wait a VERY long time to extract the Kyuubi... this makes it impossible for Tobi to be Obito because only 1 year had passed since Obito was crushed by those rocks, in other words Tobi's statement right here is a plothole

your previous explanations of these plotholes are unsatisfactory... dispute this if you want but i disagree


*Spoiler*: __ 



you see... no need to call people an ignorant troll, a fucking hypocrite, or flat out tell them to fuck off


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i agree, this is a plothole... not to mention Tobi says to Naruto "I see the first Hokage in you..." *in chapter 462 page 14*... to make a Hashirama comparison means Tobi has to be someone from that era



Maybe it's safer to just _continue_ to pretend, in case of a fourth party. It's not like there aren't people that can't see through objects from miles away.



As far as what Tobi says to Naruto, it appears that you're apparently, in my opinion, willfully ignorant to the possibility that it was just an act, which is plausible since he's implied to be pretending to be Madara and wears a mask.







jacamo said:


> youre wrong, there are plotholes and there are timeline issues with Obito... now, of course there is evidence that supports/hints at Obito, but there is *stronger* evidence that says Tobi = Obito is impossible... i have provided manga panels as evidence of these plotholes countless times
> 
> evidence against Obito:
> *chapter 509 page 4* - Tobi says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan..." so if Tobi was the one to give Nagato the Rinnegan, as stated in the manga, then Tobi at least has to be older than Nagato to have, you know, given him the Rinnegan... Obito is a plothole because he is 5-10 years younger than Nagato for crying out loud!!!  if someone is just using Obito's body? lol ok... time travel? fine... other than that, Tobi's quote right here is a glaring plothole



Since your argument is based on what Tobi said, there, then what about what he says about spurring Yahiko to start Akatsuki? Shouldn't he have been not able to do that since Madara died shortly after he'd awoken his Rinnegan, and Akatsuki apparently began well after the first time that we see Nagato's?




jacamo said:


> *chapter 501 page 7* - Tobi says "Do you have any idea how long ive waited for this moment?" for him to even say something like that clearly reflects that Tobi has had to wait a VERY long time to extract the Kyuubi... this makes it impossible for Tobi to be Obito because only 1 year had passed since Obito was crushed by those rocks, in other words Tobi's statement right here is a plothole



What it refers to is _open to interpretation_, such as the one that you've just presented. What it does not do is explicitly state whether or not he's seen Hashirama any more than Sasuke has _seen_ Madara, neither is it proven to be authentic, which is significant because he's implied as a liar.

_Opinions_ don't = _facts_/plotholes/canon.



jacamo said:


> your previous explanations of these plotholes are unsatisfactory... dispute this if you want but i disagree
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Sure, they're unsatisfactory to pure, nonsensical, contempt.

It's called covering your ears.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i agree, this is a plothole... not to mention Tobi says to Naruto "I see the first Hokage in you..." *in chapter 462 page 14*... to make a Hashirama comparison means Tobi has to be someone from that era
> 
> Your Evidence is empty, it just has  statements with false impressions and lots of missing information to say the LEAST. The reason? So we CANT deduce to 100% certainty who it is. Which is why Obito is a possibility
> 
> ...



unsatisfactory? SURE.
possible? YES, 
That page doesn't prove anything, he is 'Madara' against Konan. and MADARA could have given Nagato the Rinnegan, we don't know how he got it.
To a teenage like Obito, a few years IS a long time. 
The time skip seemed like a long time to Naruto and Sakura. Its perception of time, we don't get ANY idea of time for that statement. unless of course you got some crazy math calculation, then cool story bro.


----------



## Easley (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I have something to counter this, but I'm not gonna waste my time typing it out because people are too ignorant to listen.


Acting as Madara is the usual reason. 



> I'm not sure what you're getting at with most of this but about Tobi showing Sasuke his face, well, that's not what he was going to do. He was just showing Sasuke his sharingan to gain his trust.


He needs to take the mask halfway off to show his sharingan? Most other times its visible just fine, like in chapter 395.

Kishi was just teasing the readers anyway. He had no intention of showing Tobi's face at that point.



> No, Obito's not just a Kakashi story. That should be evident as he was an exact parallel to Naruto.


It's _mainly_ a Kakashi story. Almost every Tobito theory revolves around him in some way. He's the one to recognize Obito and be personally affected. Does he need to start explaining to Naruto after the mask comes off? That will suck all the excitement out of the revelation. Whatever is under there needs to be instantly shocking, imo - for both characters and readers. Obito does not do that. 



> It would make more sense for Tobi's true identity to have an impact on at least one of the main characters, and it has to be one that is currently fighting Tobi. Right now, there are only 2, Naruto and Kakashi.


I agree, but unless the mask comes off soon, more characters will arrive at Naruto's location, possibly even Madara. I think the unmasking should be witnessed by as many people as possible.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> That page doesn't prove anything, he is 'Madara' against Konan. and MADARA could have given Nagato the Rinnegan, we don't know how he got it.



it proves Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, NOT Madara

why do you continue to deny canon?


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it proves Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, NOT Madara
> 
> why do you continue to deny canon?



It is not canon until it is proven that Tobi wasn't lying. 

Why do you continue to deny such a possibility?


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 30, 2012)

can some show me the link where we have seen izuna in a coffin?


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> To a teenage like Obito, a few years IS a long time.
> The time skip seemed like a long time to Naruto and Sakura. Its perception of time, we don't get ANY idea of time for that statement. unless of course you got some crazy math calculation, then cool story bro.



Debating your perception on time.

1. Obito had died within 1 year and 8 months of the nine tails attack on Konaha, orchestrated by Tobi.

2. Kishi is a very talented writer who wouldn't let an error in time disrupt his story. He plots this stuff out and more than you can imagine he has firms of people working for him, double checking and calculating all of the little things, from plot validity to drawing minor details in the manga.

3. Kishi gave us a huge hint in two fights that the Tobi that attacked Konaha when Naruto was born is in fact the same Tobi we are left with today.
That hint is this.


       Now is it 100% fact that they were the same person? No, but the factors are there to lead us to that thinking.
IMO, which is mine and I'm not saying this to influence others, is that Tobi attacked Konaha.
       So based on my own opinion I'm lead to believe it was also Tobi who controled The Blood Mist, 

Obito could not have controlled the blood mist if the above statements are valid. Right now those statements haven't been proven invalid, so to me Obito =/= Tobi.


----------



## Roronoa Zoro (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobi is Juubi with Obito's sharingan and is part Zetsu.  

or Kagami with Obito's eye



Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> can some show me the link where we have seen izuna in a coffin?



Chapter 370


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> can some show me the link where we have seen izuna in a coffin?


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> It is not canon until it is proven that Tobi wasn't lying.
> 
> Why do you continue to deny such a possibility?



i continue to deny such a possibility because people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions all the time

the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in one of your theories and say that "its possible" it could be a lie loooool whats the point?



*Spoiler*: __ 



thats what the Obito believers are doing... continuing to say it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, when the manga has since revealed Tobi NOT to be Madara

i think this is where the denial comes from... deep down they know if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, Obito is 100% ruled out because Nagato is 5-10 years older than Obito


----------



## Hexa (Jul 30, 2012)

Izuna died, but so did Kakashi.

Izuna still makes the most sense, but Obito would be way more exciting.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i continue to deny such a possibility because people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions all the time
> 
> the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in your theory and say that its "possible" it could be a lie



I agree with this statement.

Either Tobi or Madara could have given Nagato the Rinnegan eyes.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

Hexa said:


> Izuna died, but so did Kakashi.
> 
> Izuna still makes the most sense, but Obito would be way more exciting.



Obito would be far more disappointing to me.

I mean Obito was a Naruto comparison character, much like Nawaki or Dan.

He had that undying spirit(excluding the fact that he actually did die)

He was a loud mouth who stood up for what he believed.

He gave everything he had to protect his friends.

Twisting him and the story that much, just would take away from Obito to me.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i continue to deny such a possibility because  people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions  all the time
> 
> the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon  material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories  altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in  one of your theories and say that "its possible" it could be a lie  loooool whats the point?


No one's trying to doubt established canon material here -- not me, at least -- because the so-called canon material you speak of hasn't actually been established. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, but whether he was speaking as himself, needless to say, remains in doubt.


> thats what the Obito believers are doing... continuing to say  it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, when the manga has since  revealed Tobi NOT to be Madara


The fact that Tobi is not Madara has nothing to do with whether it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The argument that Madara gave it comes from the idea that Tobi was speaking as Madara to Konan.


----------



## Easley (Jul 30, 2012)

Tharris said:


> So based on my own opinion I'm lead to believe it was also Tobi who controled The Blood Mist,
> 
> Obito could not have controlled the blood mist if the above statements are valid. Right now those statements haven't been proven invalid, so to me Obito =/= Tobi.


The long-haired man who controlled Yagura was definitely Tobi. Kisame recognized him when he took off his mask (chapter 404) - and he also called him Mizukage.

Obito being responsible for the Bloody Mist would be hilarious. It's just so random. Tobi must have some connection to Kirigakure.

Whatever Kishi decides to do, he has his work cut out making sense of this shit.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

*Flabbergast these thoughts on your forehead my goodsir.*



TH4N4T0S said:


> The fact that Tobi is not Madara has nothing to do with whether it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The argument that Madara gave it comes from the idea that Tobi was speaking as Madara to Konan.



 I guess a lot of it comes down to two things

1. Who is Tobi?
     Because Obito couldn't have given Nagato the Rinnegan. Due to age.

2. How was the Rinnegan given...
     I mean there appears to be no real medical ninjutsu used, such as scars or disfiguring face lines.
So was it medically given to Nagato
Or did the actual Madara, with his dying breath do some eye transfer Jutsu?
     Because then it could be Obito... on a time lapse basis
      However Obito doesn't seem old enough to have known Madara and Madara knows who Tobi is, as he addresses Tobi as "*him"


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> No one's trying to doubt established canon material here -- not me, at least -- because the so-called canon material you speak of hasn't actually been established. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, but whether he was speaking as himself, needless to say, remains in doubt.



maybe not you... but thats exactly whats going on here



> The fact that Tobi is not Madara has nothing to do with whether it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The argument that Madara gave it comes from the idea that Tobi was speaking as Madara to Konan.



i know thats the argument and its ridiculous because Tobi knows exactly who he is... what other people percieve Tobi to be is irrelevant

and the fact that Madara was revived with his eyes intact, means that Madara must have died with his eyes still inside him


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2012)

Tharris said:


> 1. Who is Tobi?
> Because Obito couldn't have given Nagato the Rinnegan. Due to age.


That is relevant to the Tobito theory only if we assume that Tobi, not  Madara, was truly the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. This assumption,  however, is in question.


> 2. How was the Rinnegan given...
> I mean there appears to be no real medical ninjutsu used, such as scars or disfiguring face lines.
> So was it medically given to Nagato
> Or did the actual Madara, with his dying breath do some eye transfer Jutsu?
> Because then it could be Obito... on a time lapse basis


Perhaps that's part of what the story will reveal.


> However Obito doesn't seem old enough to have known  Madara


I certainly know my paternal great grandfather, and I  happen to possess an old memento from him. Are you catching my drift? Madara could have had some sort of liaison or subordinate who completed his tasks for him after his death. Tobi didn't have to meet him in person so that his plans could be put in motion.


> and Madara knows who Tobi is, as he addresses Tobi as "*him"


That's  not necessarily correct, as much as I want to believe that it is. You  can address Tobi as "him" without knowing his true identity, can't you?


jacamo said:


> i know thats the argument and its ridiculous because Tobi knows exactly who he is... what other people percieve Tobi to be is irrelevant


This was never about who we perceive him to be. This is about the identity he took on when he confronted Konan, which was possibly (if not probably) Madara's identity. What are you talking about?


> and the fact that Madara was revived with his eyes intact, means that Madara must have died with his eyes still inside him


But you wouldn't expect Jiraiya to lack an arm if he was revived, would you? After all, Sasori wasn't revived as a mere heart just because he lost the rest of his real body when he was alive.

You may argue that Kakuzu didn't appear to possess his extra hearts when he was revived because he had to steal at least one replacement during the battle itself. However, it may simply be the case that Edo Tensei doesn't restore body parts that have no counterpart in the sacrificial body; that is, Kakuzu's hearts weren't restored because the sacrificial body used for his revival didn't possess five hearts.

It's probably safe to assume that Edo Tensei would restore "normal" body parts (such as eyes, limbs, ears, etc.) even if they had been removed before the summoned person's death.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> That is relevant to the Tobito theory only if we assume that Tobi, not  Madara, was truly the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. This assumption,  however, is in question.



no its not in question, not at all



> This was never about who we perceive him to be. This is about the identity he took on when he confronted Konan, which was possibly (if not probably) Madara's identity. What are you talking about?



this isnt about what identity Tobi took on when he confronted Konan, either

what identity he took on is irrelevant because Tobi knows who he is so it doesnt matter either way... even if the readers didnt know at the time, Tobi KNOWS he is not Madara so when he says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan" then he is obviously talking about himself


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no its not in question, not at all


No. It is.


> this isnt about what identity Tobi took on when he confronted Konan, either
> 
> what identity he took on is irrelevant because Tobi knows who he is so it doesnt matter either way... even if the readers didnt know at the time, Tobi KNOWS he is not Madara so when he says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan" then he is obviously talking about himself


Hey, I'm a spy. I use cutting-edge technology to masquerade as Political Figure X because I need to deceive the world. But hey, I _know_ I'm not really Political Figure X, so I'm just going to tell my current opponent something that Political Figure X clearly didn't do.

I ain't stupid, am I? I mean, it wouldn't be so laughably imbecilic of me to let just a small part of my true identity slip, even though I am in front of an opponent, right? It's fine if I don't perfectly mimic Political Figure X, right? I just want to manipulate the world, after all!

Seriously. I don't think Tobi is that stupid. He would have known that his disguise could have been rendered useless if Konan had escaped. Even if his blatant underestimation of Konan did make him slip, you couldn't possibly be sure that he did. There's nothing canon about it.

No one is claiming that Tobi was certainly lying, but a reasonable reader who isn't in denial would have at least some doubt that he was telling the absolute truth.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> this isnt about what identity Tobi took on when he confronted Konan, either
> 
> what identity he took on is irrelevant because Tobi knows who he is so it doesnt matter either way... even if the readers didnt know at the time, Tobi KNOWS he is not Madara so when he says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan" then he is obviously talking about himself



...........

*He claims Madara's actions as his own.* He says _he_:
-fought Hashirama at VotE
-stole his powers during their fight
-was rivals with him
-is the second Rikudou Sennin (aka second person to acquire rinnegan)
-was made leader of the Uchiha
-took his brother Izuna's eyes, gaining EMS
-etc

These are all things that _Madara_ did, and _Tobi takes credit for them all_. 

If Tobi wants to say Madara did something, he doesn't say "Uchiha Madara did [whatever]," he says "I did [whatever]."


----------



## Chris Partlow (Jul 30, 2012)

It has to be a clone. Or maybe someone in the villiage who had an obession with Madara and followed him around skillfully undetected and then after he died he took over his identity. 

I mean when they went into Kisame's head, Kisame saw Madara when Tobi took his mask off.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

Tharris said:


> Debating your perception on time.
> 
> 1. Obito had died within 1 year and 8 months of the nine tails attack on Konaha, orchestrated by Tobi.
> 
> ...


actually its 2 years, and it wasnt confirmed that the bloody mist started with yagura. and if it did doesn't say if tobi was in charge the wholeeeeee time, possible madara started and tobi took over. kisame's talk takesplace after kyuubi attack.


jacamo said:


> i continue to deny such a possibility because people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions all the time
> 
> the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in one of your theories and say that "its possible" it could be a lie loooool whats the point?
> 
> ...



no ones denying same tobi. but then by you rlogic tobi also fought with hashirama at the vote and looked towards future saying he won........your an idiot


shintebukuro said:


> ...........
> 
> *He claims Madara's actions as his own.* He says he:
> -fought Hashirama at VotE
> ...



this


----------



## Malmortius (Jul 30, 2012)

*Could Tobi actually be...*

Setsuna Uchiha.

When i seen Setsuna immediately thought of Tobi. The similarity in hair (despite being shorter). 12 STRANDS OF HAIR EACH not including the fringe on either Tobi or Setsuna. The eyebrows and especially the skin colour. 

It would be pretty fucked up for Kishi to reveal Tobi as a near-unknown character, but the similarities!

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Easley said:


> Acting as Madara is the usual reason.


Actually no. That's not what I had in mind.



> He needs to take the mask halfway off to show his sharingan? Most other times its visible just fine, like in chapter 395.


Tobi himself stated that he wanted to show Sasuke his sharingan. 



> Kishi was just teasing the readers anyway. He had no intention of showing Tobi's face at that point.


Obviously.



> It's _mainly_ a Kakashi story. Almost every Tobito theory revolves around him in some way. He's the one to recognize Obito and be personally affected. Does he need to start explaining to Naruto after the mask comes off? That will suck all the excitement out of the revelation. Whatever is under there needs to be instantly shocking, imo - for both characters and readers. Obito does not do that.


No, I just explained why he's more than just a Kakashi story. I noticed how you didn't reply to my second part under that which refuted your point.



> I agree, but unless the mask comes off soon, more characters will arrive at Naruto's location, possibly even Madara. I think the unmasking should be witnessed by as many people as possible.


Yes, but I don't think that many people would/should recognize him.



jacamo said:


> i continue to deny such a possibility because people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions all the time
> 
> the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in one of your theories and say that "its possible" it could be a lie loooool whats the point?
> 
> ...


You know what. You can't debate. I'm done replying to you.



Easley said:


> Obito being responsible for the Bloody Mist would be hilarious. It's just so random. Tobi must have some connection to Kirigakure.


Agreed actually... Yes it would require explaining but I still can think of a few possible reasons. Considering that the Bloody Mist was random either way. About a connection to Kirigakure, no. Unless Tobi is Zabuza.



> Whatever Kishi decides to do, he has his work cut out making sense of this shit.


Lol, that's for sure.



Chris Partlow said:


> It has to be a clone. Or maybe someone in the villiage who had an obession with Madara and followed him around skillfully undetected and then after he died he took over his identity.
> 
> I mean when they went into Kisame's head, Kisame saw Madara when Tobi took his mask off.


.......................


----------



## NO (Jul 30, 2012)

Yeah, well, Tobi also looks like multiple known characters. Would you bet your money on a completely unknown character or someone we've seen who will bring emotional impact on the characters?


----------



## Yuna (Jul 30, 2012)

Different eyes. But still better than Tobito.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 30, 2012)

Don't use the Anime for any theory, hype, and feats. sometimes in the Anime is very different and are considered non-canon.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 30, 2012)

Except time travelling, Obito can't be Tobi. 

I'm sorry for that...


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Except time travelling, Obito can't be Tobi.
> 
> I'm sorry for that...


Give reasons then. Oh, that's right. You gave your reasons before, but people refuted them. If someone refutes a point of yours, don't keep saying it over and over if it has no validity. Obito doesn't need time travel to be Tobi.

Seriously, all this is coming from the guy who thinks Tobi is Danzo...


----------



## Easley (Jul 30, 2012)

Most people were convinced that AL (Pain) had to be a known character - hence, AL = Yondaime was born. Even when we saw a color page and his orange hair, it lived on.

I think Tobi is well-known, but at this point maybe a new or background character would be better. None of the Uchiha candidates are particularly satisfying. Their names are too familiar after constant arguing.

Setsuna is a true 'nobody'. He has 0 votes in the official Tobi thread!


----------



## Chuck (Jul 30, 2012)

is this Setsuna person even in the manga?


----------



## Jaime Lannister (Jul 30, 2012)

Who? 

insertfiller


----------



## Jad (Jul 30, 2012)

His not filler, how about googling his name and looking at when he was first introduced into the manga; 399 btw.

It makes you think he could be him, since he looks like a "nobody", merely a 'member' of the Uchiha clan. You could be onto something.

Link removed

His name is filler though. But this isn't the first time something rom the anime has been made into canon; The lighting swords, the Kekkei Genkai users etc...


----------



## NO (Jul 30, 2012)

Jad said:


> His not filler, how about googling his name and looking at when he was first introduced into the manga; 399 btw.
> 
> It makes you think he could be him, since he looks like a "nobody", merely a 'member' of the Uchiha clan. You could be onto something.
> 
> ...


He was *not* introduced. 

His name is only found in the databook.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> No one's trying to doubt established canon material here -- not me, at least -- because the so-called canon material you speak of hasn't actually been established. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, but whether he was speaking as himself, needless to say, remains in doubt.
> The fact that Tobi is not Madara has nothing to do with whether it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The argument that Madara gave it comes from the idea that Tobi was speaking as Madara to Konan.





Konan even calls him _Madara_ earlier, and Tobi doesn't correct her.


Tobi speaking as Madara, there, is a _fact_, thus Tobi referencing his own actions as totally _independent_ of Uchiha Madara's would be _begging the question_. How it's "canon" is, in my opinion, absolutely a mystery.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Give reasons then. Oh, that's right. You gave your reasons before, but people refuted them. If someone refutes a point of yours, don't keep saying it over and over if it has no validity. Obito doesn't need time travel to be Tobi.
> 
> Seriously, all this is coming from the guy who thinks Tobi is Danzo...



At least Danzo makes more sense than Obito.
Case and point Danzo was alive for basically all the events Tobi can be accounted for, Obito was not.


----------



## Raiden (Jul 30, 2012)

^His picture is also shown when Tobi mentions that other Uchiha decided to move in Madara's footsteps.

But to your point, we can't say that. For all we know, the mangaka randomly drew that character, and the animators used it's design for the illusion of consistency. 

Generally Kishimoto's characters, especially the filler ones, do  uncannily resemble someone from the main cast.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Tharris said:


> At least Danzo makes more sense than Obito.
> Case and point Danzo was alive for basically all the events Tobi can be accounted for, Obito was not.


it depends on what events you consider to be those of Tobi and which you consider to be those of Madara. If the Rinnegan claim was Tobi's then yes, he can't be Obito, but if Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then that's a different story.

Also, Tobi never sat on top of a ledge and watched Obito die. Nor did he curse his dead body.

Danzo makes less sense than ANY other theory.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> it depends on what events you consider to be those of Tobi and which you consider to be those of Madara. If the Rinnegan claim was Tobi's then yes, he can't be Obito, but if Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then that's a different story.



The former wasn't even implied. I don't understand how people can see Tobi literally state that he is Uchiha Madara after he says that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, doesn't correct Konan when she says that he's Uchiha Madara, doesn't take off his mask, and say that he was referencing his own actions. There's literally no evidence for it, and plenty of evidence against it. 


What's even more amazing is when _they_ call such an arbitrary assumption "canon".

case and point




jacamo said:


> i continue to deny such a possibility because people use scans and statements to make theories/comments/predictions all the time
> 
> the moment you start contending that the validity of established canon material is up for debate, then we should just stop making theories altogether... seeing as i could take any of the established "facts" in one of your theories and say that "its possible" it could be a lie loooool whats the point?
> 
> ...



1. You've yet to take the position of any established canon.
2. You can't spin something that's not even implied as established canon.
3. As long as the idea makes sense, then it should be considered as a possibility.

What you should understand is that the burden of proof lies with you. Tobi literally states that he's Madara after his "admission" of all of the statements that you've referenced. He also did not take off his mask, nor did he correct Konan earlier, when she called him Madara. By all accounts, he meant to be perceived as Madara.

Your job is to post actual evidence as to why all of this does not indicate that he meant to be perceived as Madara.

I don't understand how hearing a person say that they're Michael Phelps, and that they've swam from the New York state to Tokyo, only to find out that he's actually John from New York, shouldn't indicate that the entire story was a lie, as opposed to "well, since he's not really Michael Phelps, then he must've swam all the way to Tokyo as John from New York".


----------



## ovanz (Jul 30, 2012)

Who? look like an anime filler fodder.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 30, 2012)

More chance of him being a potato


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 30, 2012)

No, he's too irrelevant to be Tobi. We've only seen him in one chapter.


----------



## tnorbo (Jul 30, 2012)

it would be good for it to be him, as it would tie into tobi's story about uchiha who followed madara's path.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> The former wasn't even implied. I don't understand how people can see Tobi literally state that he is Uchiha Madara after he says that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, doesn't correct Konan when she says that he's Uchiha Madara, doesn't take off his mask, and say that he was referencing his own actions. There's literally no evidence for it, and plenty of evidence against it.
> 
> 
> What's even more amazing is when _they_ call such an arbitrary assumption "canon".


Good point.It's a shame that they still won't listen though. Or at least just jacamo. He never listens to anyone unless they say what he wants to hear.

However, what worries me is the emphasis there was on Tobi when he said that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The drama in that scene does seem to suggest that it was actually Tobi that performed that action.



.............
*Spoiler*: __ 








But seriously though, if it's not Obito it's definitely Izuna. No one else makes any sense. Personally, I'd give Obito an 88% chance of being Tobi, and give Izuna a 12% chance.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Good point.It's a shame that they still won't listen though. Or at least just jacamo. He never listens to anyone unless they say what he wants to hear.
> 
> However, what worries me is the emphasis there was on Tobi when he said that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The drama in that scene does seem to suggest that it was actually Tobi that performed that action.
> 
> ...



He was speaking as Uchiha Madara.



This was after the scene in your post. Please read the rest of my previous post, as I continue after my edit.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jul 30, 2012)

Easley said:


> Most people were convinced that AL (Pain) had to be a known character - hence, AL = Yondaime was born. Even when we saw a color page and his orange hair, it lived on.
> 
> I think Tobi is well-known, but at this point maybe a new or background character would be better. None of the Uchiha candidates are particularly satisfying. Their names are too familiar after constant arguing.
> 
> Setsuna is a true 'nobody'. He has 0 votes in the official Tobi thread!



That was back when people also suspected the AL was going to be the FV though.  I doubt this masked man would have his identity built up across literally the entirety of Shippuuden and not be someone shocking.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobi...

He may be Izuna, but Madara gave the Fifth Hokage that "Power" Speech. "The only thing my brother left me was his eyes"
Something like that. Madara said that like Izuna is dead, so Izuna being Tobi...

Meh.

Obito? Um, nope. I can't see a 13 year old Uchiha catching anyone's attention unless they were Sasuke or Itachi/showing cool shit. Which Obito never did. Nagato was what? Like 40 or at least older than Kakashi.
Its impossible for Obito to be Tobi, due with these flashblacks and events relating to the mist village, Kisame, Konan, Nagato, and the birth of Akatsuki.

Kagame Uchiha? He was only shown one time. He must had been strong to fight alongside Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzo. He was in a team with characters that had "roles" within the plot. Eh, Kagame is like a nobody to be casted with those characters. Tobirama had S/T Jutsu. Kagame means mirror. Kagame was the only Uchiha in a team with Senju and Ninjas/clans who strongly backed the Senju (Hiruzen and them elders) Ehhh, thats a reach though but I would prefer Tobi to be him.

Shisui Uchiha? He's dead. I think his body was moved or "erased" Fuck... Danzo and the Anbu found Shisui's body first because Danzo had Shisui's arm during his fight with Sasuke and Ao Id the arm as Shisui's arm. The Uchiha clan was the last to find Shisui's body. They did tell Itachi and brought up the suicide note and the missing arm.
Lets not forget, in the flashback, Shisui had both of his arms right until he "died." 
The Uchiha clan likely got rid of his body. I mean, Shisui died with no eyes.
Such a thing would prompt the Uchiha clan to destroy Shisui's body to prevent anyone from getting anything else. Shisui was one of the strongest Uchiha as well.

Setsuna Uchiha? Nahhh... He was brought up during Tobi's storytime of Madara Uchiha. Setsuna was mentioned(Shown in flashback) during the scene in which Tobi talked about how some Uchiha began to believe Madara's  warning of the Senju. And how it was too late to do anything about it or someshit. They couldn't follow his cause or someshit.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> He was speaking as Uchiha Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> This was after the scene in your post. Please read the rest of my previous post, as I continue after my edit.


I've read it. But what you've stated in your post doesn't necessarily mean that Tobi couldn't have been talking about his own action as well. I just think it's odd that we got a close up into Tobi's mask and that eery look right when he said it. 

There's also this: 

Tobi said that the Rinnegan were "his to begin with". This implies not only did he or Madara give Nagato the eyes, but it was also an actual physical transplant. And the Rinnegan weren't Madara's to begin with. They were izuna's as they were izuna's eyes. So, Tobi saying that could mean that either he is posing as izuna as well(WTF?!), he is Izuna, or something else entirely that has yet to be revealed.

I'm still hoping he's Obito but this evidence leads me to believe it's Izuna.





Pathos Grim said:


> Kagami Uchiha? He was only shown one time. He must had been strong to fight alongside Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzo. He was in a team with characters that had "roles" within the plot. Eh, Kagami is like a nobody to be casted with those characters. Tobirama had S/T Jutsu. Kagami means mirror. Kagami was the only Uchiha in a team with Senju and Ninjas/clans who strongly backed the Senju (Hiruzen and them elders) Ehhh, thats a reach though *but I would prefer Tobi to be him.*


Why would you _want_ Tobi, the main villain, to be some random one panel fodder with only one line and no good views of his face? There's no point in the mask being on so long. We wouldn't recognize him anyway! he was also introduced roughly 200 chapters after Tobi.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would you _want_ Tobi, the main villain, to be some random one panel fodder with only one line and no good views of his face? There's no point in the mask being on so long. We wouldn't recognize him anyway! he was also introduced roughly 200 chapters after Tobi.



Cuz Kishimoto would troll that hard.
I don't care who Tobi is, I only care about the levels of damage control that will ensue once the mask comes off.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I've read it. But what you've stated in your post doesn't necessarily mean that Tobi couldn't have been talking about his own action as well. I just think it's odd that we got a close up into Tobi's mask and that eery look right when he said it.
> 
> There's also this:
> 
> Tobi said that the Rinnegan were "his to begin with". This implies not only did he or Madara give Nagato the eyes, but it was also an actual physical transplant. And the Rinnegan weren't Madara's to begin with. They were izuna's as they were izuna's eyes. So, Tobi saying that could mean that either he is posing as izuna as well(WTF?!), he is Izuna, or something else entirely that has yet to be revealed.



I agree with you. It is possible that Tobi meant that it was his own actions. I shouldn't have stated what I've stated as a _fact_, so I do apologize. 

My point is that it is also possible, and in my opinion, _most likely_, that Tobi was speaking as Madara.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Give reasons then. Oh, that's right. You gave your reasons before, but people refuted them. If someone refutes a point of yours, don't keep saying it over and over if it has no validity. Obito doesn't need time travel to be Tobi.
> 
> Seriously, all this is coming from the guy who thinks Tobi is Danzo...



First, who refuted my reasons? Are you  talking about people who consider "10 years" as a short period? No man, they only make a laughingstock of themself... 

Look at this child:



He's maximum 8-9 years old... And only four your Obito theory's sake, to only be able to give you maximum possibility, I accept that Nagato got that eyes when he was 8-9! But, when it comes to the reality, Madara might have given his eyes to baby Nagato which is more logical because Nagato has no idea about his eyes... And that makes extra 8-9 years to destruct Tobito theory.. So, are you still thinking that 15-18 years is a short period?... After he gave his eyes to Nagato, he lives 10-15 years and you say that it is "shortly"... Not even possible... 

Madara is talking about a partner who is capable of fighting with all world. And you're saying that a child Obito was able to manipulate a destrcutive power like Nagato...

13 years old Obito manipulates 22-23 years old Nagato ohh yea!!..

About my theory,

When I criticise Tobito theory, I did not claim that mine is absoultely true... I clearly refuted it...

But, Danzo fits every details of this story... Time line, Philosophy, Uchiha hatred, One world, japanese myth etc etc and more... In my signature there are 5 point read them carefully.

And one more thing,

I'm sure that you have about 100 posts(maybe more over) only in this topic and I'm surer that all of them say same thing again again and again. So, who gave you the right to criticise me with repeating my words?


PS. I've already expressed that Obito's face is behind the mask...But not his mind...


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

Confirmed by PikaCheeka in the convo thread.

Madara= 179cm.
Tobi= 175 cm.

1: People can forget about the clone theory, or even if you gonna bluff about his height being reduced cuz of the age you lose, 1: clone doesn't age, even if he does he should have white hairs if you support his height is reduced cuz of his age.

2: The long haired maksed man was the real Madara, he was obviously taller then Tobi.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> First, who refuted my reasons? Are you  talking about people who consider "10 years" as a short period? No man, they only make a laughingstock of themself...


Like Mistshadow said, perception of time changes with age. 



> Madara is talking about a partner who is capable of fighting with all world. And you're saying that a child Obito was able to manipulate a destrcutive power like Nagato...
> 
> 13 years old Obito manipulates 22-23 years old Nagato ohh yea!!..


Dat's wut I'm sayin', bro!

But seriously, obito would have been closer to 16 - 17 at that time. So no problem, bro.





> But, Danzo fits every details of this story... Time line, Philosophy, Uchiha hatred, One world, japanese myth etc etc and more... In my signature there are 5 point read them carefully.


Danzo doesn't fit the story at all. Why would Danzo insult himself in his head?!

And Japanese mythology actually supports Tobi being Obito.





> I'm sure that you have about 100 posts(maybe more over) only in this topic and I'm surer that all of them say same thing again again and again. So, who gave you the right to criticise me with repeating my words?


Stop making assumptions. My posts in this topic do not all say the same thing over and over again. Because, unlike you, I have the ability to rationalize. Although, some of my posts DO state the same thing over again because certain people(not saying who) are just too ignorant to listen.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Confirmed by PikaCheeka in the convo thread.
> 
> Madara= 179cm.
> Tobi= 175 cm.
> ...



I also thought about it. If it indeed was the real Madara so it means he died only a few years ago which is weird, especially if considering he remember Nagato as "little brat".


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Like Mistshadow said, perception of time changes with age.
> 
> *You tobito fighters know nothing.. Bla bla bla do you thing this sentence make you reasonable... Time is time and every one of you know that Madara could live a little more after he gave his eyes... Not 10-15 years...*
> 
> ...



This is not assumptions, this is what yo're doing

What ever, I'm wasting my time with your tenacity.


----------



## Easley (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Confirmed by PikaCheeka in the convo thread.
> 
> Madara= 179cm.
> Tobi= 175 cm.
> ...


Who has Tobi and Madara stood next to so we can accurately compare heights? We need a frame of reference.

It bears repeating, but if the long-haired man is the real Madara then why did Kisame recognize Tobi as the person who controlled Yagura? And call him Mizukage? The only answer is that they look alike. Clone theory is still valid. 

btw, isn't Izuna the same height or weight as Tobi in the databook?


----------



## blackhawkdown (Jul 30, 2012)

Height 	174.8 cm
Weight 	55.9 kg



Height 	175.0 cm (with mask)
Weight 	55.9 kg

Obvious


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

blackhawkdown said:


> Height     174.8 cm
> Weight     55.9 kg
> 
> 
> ...


The ~ same height and weight for over 100 years?
Yes obvious Kugh* kugh*.



Easley said:


> Who has Tobi and Madara stood next to so we can accurately compare heights? We need a frame of reference.
> 
> It bears repeating, but if the long-haired man is the real Madara then why did Kisame recognize Tobi as the person who controlled Yagura? And call him Mizukage? The only answer is that they look alike. Clone theory is still valid.
> 
> btw, isn't Izuna the same height or weight as Tobi in the databook?


You don't need to compare them, it's safe to say the real one is much taller.

Kisame recognized Tobi as Madara, why?
There could be 10000 reasons for it, Madara could have shown Kisame tobi and told him about him taking his role over.



Mateush said:


> I also thought about it. If it indeed was the  real Madara so it means he died only a few years ago which is weird,  especially if considering he remember Nagato as "little brat".



I still think that Madara, went to the mist country (Nagato's place isn't it?) and controled the Mizukage while looking for the adult Nagato, he ended up dying without finding the adult Nagato.
Then his line about brat Nagato being grown makes still sense right?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I still think that Madara, went to the mist country (Nagato's place isn't it?) and controled the Mizukage while looking for the adult Nagato, he ended up dying without finding the adult Nagato.
> Then his line about brat Nagato being grown makes still sense right?



It could be, though I still have the doubts because his line about Nagato and also he wears his old armor which probably means he died while or recently after fighting. It becomes more weird when nobody seemed to notice him still alive after the Hashirama fight (since he died with his armor). So maaaybe the real Madara died very soon after his Hashirama fight, who knows?


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You tobito fighters know nothing.. Bla bla bla do you thing this sentence make you reasonable... Time is time and every one of you know that Madara could live a little more after he gave his eyes... Not 10-15 years...


Like Mistshadow said, perception of time changes with age.


> I think your problem is with the math... You can read but you can't count...
> 
> Look genious:
> 
> ...


 You just proved my point...

Also, your math is incorrect. But I got what i could out of it.


> Why would Tobi call himself Madara? Why would Obito call himself no one?
> 
> Even this "no one" word comes from Root! From Danzo's root not Obito...


I could explain this, but I won't. You wouldn't listen to me anyway.


> You actually started to invent myth


No I didn't. Do your research before you open your mouth. The mythology is right fucking here:





> --------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
> [sp]First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:
> 
> 
> ...





> This is not assumptions, this is what yo're doing
> 
> What ever, I'm wasting my time with your tenacity.


Yes, you're assuming things. You can't possible know what every single one of my posts on these TIT(Tobi Identity Thread)s are about. 

And, I'm saying the same things over again to you now. Whatever all I need to do is wait for the manga to prove you wrong. 


Sorry for being mean, but your last post was extremely ignorant. And, quite frankly, I'm getting annoyed at posts like those.


----------



## blackhawkdown (Jul 30, 2012)

Intresting theroy.

part 1: 
Link removed

part 2:
Link removed

part 3:
Link removed


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

blackhawkdown said:


> Intresting theroy.
> 
> part 1:
> Link removed
> ...






if I had a penny for every time someone(either on here or on YouTube) has linked me to those videos, I'd be a fucking quadrillionaire.



But seriously, I thought we were all over the Elder Son theory.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Like Mistshadow said, perception of time changes with age.
> 
> *Yes you still have no answer... I got it... Just repeating things...*
> 
> ...


Then go and wait till the end of the world which Tobi will be Obito...


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> No. It is.
> Hey, I'm a spy. I use cutting-edge technology to masquerade as Political Figure X because I need to deceive the world. But hey, I _know_ I'm not really Political Figure X, so I'm just going to tell my current opponent something that Political Figure X clearly didn't do.
> 
> I ain't stupid, am I? I mean, it wouldn't be so laughably imbecilic of me to let just a small part of my true identity slip, even though I am in front of an opponent, right? It's fine if I don't perfectly mimic Political Figure X, right? I just want to manipulate the world, after all!
> ...



i dont care if there is a chance Tobi could have been lying, its not what i think... if i think Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan then im going to say it

its not my style to sit here and give a diplomatic answer and say "oh there is always some doubt..." but ok, i'll be diplomatic for a second

as the facts stand right now, Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan (NOT Madara).... *as long as this fact remains true* then the Obito theory falls flat on its face because of timeline plotholes - i.e Obito being 5-10 years younger than Nagato

if not, then... 





Mugivara said:


> Then go and wait till the end of the world which Tobi will be Obito...
> 
> 
> You're even unable to discuss you fucking idiot. I'll get ban because of you. Don't insult again helpless child!



 i stopped paying attention to that guy 100 pages ago

i suggest you do the same


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont care if there is a chance Tobi could have been lying, its not what i think... if i think Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan then im going to say it
> 
> its not my style to sit here and give a diplomatic answer and say "oh there is always some doubt..." but ok, i'll be diplomatic for a second
> 
> ...


Part of being a good debater is accepting a possibility. Right now it is unconfirmed and up in the air on who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. If it was Tobi then, you're right. He's not Obito. But if it was Madara then, 

Just because you don't think something, doesn't mean it's not a possibility and doesn't give you the right to deny it on the grounds that "manga canon denies it".

So you can take "plothole #11" off your list. As well as numbers 5, 4, 2, and 1. Those are not plotholes in any way.

After all, by your logic, since right now in the manga, it's unknown who Tobi is, that means that we should just think he has no identity and stop making theories. 

wut.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

So according to the most recent interview, Tobi and Madara knew each other. Was Obito born when Madara died?


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

I doubt it was actually Tobi who gave Rinnegan to Nagato, he was pretending to Madara to the whole world. When he said things like "nagato should have used Rinne Tensei on him" or "I gave Rinnegan to Nagato", he was obviously entitling himself with Madara than who he actually is.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> So according to the most recent interview, Tobi and Madara knew each other. Was Obito born when Madara died


We're not sure exactly...



TNPS1984 said:


> I doubt it was actually Tobi who gave Rinnegan to Nagato, he was pretending to Madara to the whole world. When he said things like "nagato should have used Rinne Tensei on him" or "I gave Rinnegan to Nagato", he was obviously entitling himself with Madara than who he actually is.


That's a likely explanation. It could be.. it could not be... But I'd say there's a good 80% chance that Tobi didn't give Nagato the Rinnegan. He might have been old enough to spur Yahiko to form Akatsuki however.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We're not sure exactly...
> 
> That's a likely explanation. It could be.. it could not be... But I'd say there's a good 80% chance that Tobi didn't give Nagato the Rinnegan. He might have been old enough to spur Yahiko to form Akatsuki however.



I agree. Obviously Madara knew Nagato quite well. The first thing Madara said when he came out of coffin was that Nagato had grown. He didn't mention anything related to Tobi except he suspected that "it was definitely his plan". Who could this Tobi be. 

It's possible that Obito met Madara shortly before his death. But at what point did he turn his back on Konoha? He was loyal all the way to the day of his apparent death.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> So according to the most recent interview, Tobi and Madara knew each other. Was Obito born when Madara died



Tobito believers are gonna have a hard time countering that


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito believers are gonna have a hard time countering that


Not really, as you can see.


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont care if there is a chance Tobi could have been lying, its not what i think... if i think Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan then im going to say it
> 
> its not my style to sit here and give a diplomatic answer and say "oh there is always some doubt..." but ok, i'll be diplomatic for a second
> 
> as the facts stand right now, Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan (NOT Madara).... *as long as this fact remains true* then the Obito theory falls flat on its face because of timeline plotholes - i.e Obito being 5-10 years younger than Nagato


It's also a fact that the long haired masked man was the real Madara, because he said it himself. 
Therefore Madara was around Obito's time 



Mugivara said:


> Then go and wait till the end of the world which Tobi will be Obito...


But the world is going to end in December.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

Personally I believe Tobi is either Obito or Shisui. Obito theory is pretty obvious, he's got the same hairstyle with Tobi. Rin's whereabouts is still wrapped in mystery. And Tobi just so happened to fighting to Kakashi right now. 

Not a lot people are taking the Tobi is Shuisui theory. There are numerous reasons and hints suggesting otherwise that may have been overlooked.

An overview of Shisui's life, Shisui was an ambu member. As we all know, AMBU members wear mask hide their identity. Shisui was known for his incredible speed and have the title shisui the BODY FLICKER. He even went as far as attempting to put his clan under a genjutsu in order to stop their rebellion. After his death which no one witnessed, his body mysteriously disappeared. And Kabuto couldn't any of his DNA to resurrect him. 

Now, let's look at Tobi, unlike Shisui, his goal is to put the whole world in a genjutsu to obtain peace. The first thing he did after recruited Sasuke was to tell him the truth of the uchiha massacre (but how did Tobi know) and also have him infiltrate the Kage meeting, kill Danzo (whom have stole one of Shisui's sharingan) and retrieve Shisui's sharingan. He calls himself no-one which was the exact wqm3 praise Shisui gave Itachi that he is "a nameless shinobi who protects peace from within its shadow".

They are both the top candidates for Tobi imo. Others don't really have as many undertones given on being Tobi as these two.


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Personally I believe Tobi is either Obito or Shisui. Obito theory is pretty obvious, he's got the same hairstyle with Tobi. Rin's whereabouts is still wrapped in mystery. And Tobi just so happened to fighting to Kakashi right now.
> 
> Not a lot people are taking the Tobi is Shuisui theory. There are numerous reasons and hints suggesting otherwise that may have been overlooked.
> 
> ...


Yeah, But Itachi was like 4 years on the Kyuubi night, but i doubt theres a difference of 10 years between them both.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah, But Itachi was like 4 years on the Kyuubi night, but i doubt theres a difference of 10 years between them both.



But how old do you think Obito was when Kyuubi invaded.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> what identity he took on is irrelevant because Tobi knows who he is so it doesnt matter either way... even if the readers didnt know at the time, Tobi KNOWS he is not Madara so when he says "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan" then he is obviously talking about himself



Just saw this. This is honestly difficult to not flame.

You're seriously saying that "he must have been referring to himself because it seems like it to me" = canon?

Does this not seriously bother anyone else?


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> But how old do you think Obito was when Kyuubi invaded.


About 16, 12 years age difference which is almost same with Itachi/Kakashi, if i remember correctly Kakashi part 2= 31 Itachi=22.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Personally I believe Tobi is either Obito or Shisui. Obito theory is pretty obvious, he's got the same hairstyle with Tobi. Rin's whereabouts is still wrapped in mystery. And Tobi just so happened to fighting to Kakashi right now.
> 
> Not a lot people are taking the Tobi is Shuisui theory. There are numerous reasons and hints suggesting otherwise that may have been overlooked.
> 
> ...


Tobi had his Space-Time Eye before and after Shisui gave both his eyes to Itachi. Shisui also couldn't have grown his hair to Madara length in such a short time. Not to mention he couldn't have been out of the village controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing. His body was also found and Danzo stole Shisui's eye from his dead body. The Uchiha clan most likely disposed of the rest of Shisui's body, which is why Kabuto couldn't find it. So, no. Tobi's not Shisui.



TNPS1984 said:


> But how old do you think Obito was when Kyuubi invaded.


15 - 16. What's wrong with that?


----------



## jacamo (Jul 30, 2012)

say what you want... Tobi is still not Madara

if people really want to delude themselves into thinking that Tobi "took on Madara's identity" when he confronted Konon then go ahead 

see where it takes you


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> About 16, 12 years age difference which is almost same with Itachi/Kakashi, if i remember correctly Kakashi part 2= 31 Itachi=22.



If Tobi is Obito, then he should be around 14 or 15 during the Nine Tails attack as it happened a year after the 3rd Great Ninja War. (Obito died at age 13)



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi had his Space-Time Eye before and after Shisui gave both his eyes to Itachi. Shisui also couldn't have grown his hair to Madara length in such a short time. Not to mention he couldn't have been out of the village controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing. His body was also found and Danzo stole Shisui's eye from his dead body. The Uchiha clan most likely disposed of the rest of Shisui's body, which is why Kabuto couldn't find it. So, no. Tobi's not Shisui.
> 
> 15 - 16. What's wrong with that?



Lol he must have hit the puberty early. He looked just as tall as Minato when they squared off. I suspect the long haired masked man is actually Madara, while the short hair masked man is Tobi. No one can grow hair that long in short time. Why cut it off if it grows that long


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Lol he must have hit the puberty early. He looked just as tall as Minato when they squared off. I suspect the long haired masked man is actually Madara, while the short hair masked man is Tobi. No one can grow hair that long in short time. Why cut it off if it grows that long


The more important is why cutting it off since your going to play Madara's role, why cutting the appearence of his?
I don't exactly know what the gap was between the war and that night, but Kakashi and Gai looked like an adult, put a robe and a mask on Obito and you get the result.
And if im not wrong there are even panel which on Tobi's arms are like 1/2 the seize of his sleeve.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Lol he must have hit the puberty early. He looked just as tall as Minato when they squared off.



What do you think of Zetsu parts as the reason for Tobi's height?

Tobi does have Zetsu parts, and Obito's needing a new body is plausible. If that's the case, then wouldn't an adult's body make more sense then a child's?


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The more important is why cutting it off since your going to play Madara's role, why cutting the appearence of his?
> I don't exactly know what the gap was between the war and that night, but Kakashi and Gai looked like an adult, put a robe and a mask on Obito and you get the result.



That's why I suspect there were two masked men. There was the long haired one who approached Itachi and manipulated Mizukage. And the short haired one who invaded Konoha and started the war. It's the only way that Tobi=Obito timeline makes sense.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I also thought about it. If it indeed was the real Madara so it means he died only a few years ago which is weird, especially if considering he remember Nagato as "little brat".



LikeNaruto

From my recollection, I believe the original and true translation is 
"No, can't be, He's long dead" and Tobi goes "I wouldn't be so sure about that" but even this translation points to Madara not being dead nearly as long as people are lead to believe.



Easley said:


> It bears repeating, but if the long-haired man is the real Madara then why did Kisame recognize Tobi as the person who controlled Yagura? And call him Mizukage? The only answer is that they look alike. Clone theory is still valid.
> 
> btw, isn't Izuna the same height or weight as Tobi in the databook?



The long-haired mask guy that Kisame saw wasn't necessarily Madara.This took place AFTER the kyuubi attack. and Kisame never confirmed it being Madara, he called him it, but he also explained that it is a world of lies. He also prevented Aoba from seeing the face for a reason, despite everyone knowing what Madara's face looking like, there is something important. A reason to prevent Konoha Nin from seeing it. because they would recognize it.



loool3 said:


> Kisame recognized Tobi as Madara, why?
> There could be 10000 reasons for it, Madara could have shown Kisame tobi and told him about him taking his role over.
> 
> I still think that Madara, went to the mist country (Nagato's place isn't it?) and controled the Mizukage while looking for the adult Nagato, he ended up dying without finding the adult Nagato.
> Then his line about brat Nagato being grown makes still sense right?



The long-haired mask guy that Kisame saw wasn't necessarily Madara.This took place AFTER the kyuubi attack. and Kisame never confirmed it being Madara, he called him it, but he also explained that it is a world of lies. He also prevented Aoba from seeing the face for a reason, despite everyone knowing what Madara's face looking like, there is something important. A reason to prevent Konoha Nin from seeing it. because they would recognize it. There is no cinfirmation that it was Yagura or Tobi who started the bloody mist. But even then, its possible Madara started it while genjutsuing Yagura and gave the reins to Tobi/(Obito) after he was ready and died.



TNPS1984 said:


> So according to the most recent interview, Tobi and Madara knew each other. Was Obito born when Madara died?






TNPS1984 said:


> I agree. Obviously Madara knew Nagato quite well. The first thing Madara said when he came out of coffin was that Nagato had grown. He didn't mention anything related to Tobi except he suspected that "it was definitely his plan". Who could this Tobi be.
> 
> It's possible that Obito met Madara shortly before his death. But at what point did he turn his back on Konoha? He was loyal all the way to the day of his apparent death.





HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito believers are gonna have a hard time countering that




No confirmation on when he died. Most likely died a 1-2 years after Obito 'died'. If the obito theory is correct. Trained Obito during this time.



loool3 said:


> It's also a fact that the long haired masked man was the real Madara, because he said it himself.
> Therefore Madara was around Obito's time



No it isn't, Kisame never confirmed it, theres  a reason the mask can't be taken off and revealed, and why he broke the genjutsu to prevent aoba from seeing. because it isn't really madara.



Tobitobi said:


> Just saw this. This is honestly difficult to not flame.
> 
> You're seriously saying that "he must have been referring to himself because it seems like it to me" = canon?
> 
> Does this not seriously bother anyone else?



No it bothers me, but he's 12, he hasn't gained the concept of possibilities and deduction. He also believes Tobi:
LikeNaruto HIS history is what he said and not madaras.......
LikeNaruto HE also fought the VOTE, not Madara............
Jacamo doesn't realize HIS 'plot holes' are holes.



loool3 said:


> About 16, 12 years age difference which is almost same with Itachi/Kakashi, if i remember correctly Kakashi part 2= 31 Itachi=22.


Obito and Kakashi were about 15 during kyuubi attack and obito was DEF 15. Obito's birthday is Feb and he died at age of 13. Kakashi is in Sep and Naruto is in Oct. So they both would have just turned 15. Kakashi turns 15 then Naruto is born and he is 0. Naruto is 15 TO 16 years old, there is no confirmation on his age.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> What do you think of Zetsu parts as the reason for Tobi's height?
> 
> Tobi does have Zetsu parts, and Obito's needing a new body is plausible. If that's the case, then wouldn't an adult's body make more sense then a child's?



Plausiblable, but where did Tobi get Zetsu's body? Where did he learn the knowledge to implant zetsu's body into him. It seems like right after Obito's death. He was immediately converted to a new belief, learnt space and time jutsu, have Zetsu's body integrated into him, and invaded Konoha. All these are done in a relatively short time span of 1-2 years.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> say what you want... Tobi is still not Madara


No shit.



> if people really want to delude themselves into thinking that Tobi "took on Madara's identity" when he confronted Konon then go ahead




............

He literally told Konan that he was Madara. Which means he was posing as Madara during the fight. Are you that against the Obito theory for some reason that you're deluding yourself into thinking Tobi never said that during the fight, just to erase any possibility of the theory being plausible?



> see where it takes you


It takes me to the truth apparently.



TNPS1984 said:


> If Tobi is Obito, then he should be around 14 or 15 during the Nine Tails attack as it happened a year after the 3rd Great Ninja War. (Obito died at age 13)


Actually, the timeline says that it was more around 2-3 years.



TNPS1984 said:


> Lol he must have hit the puberty early. He looked just as tall as Minato when they squared off.


Far from impossible. And the same thing applies to an even greater extent to Shisui. 





> I suspect the long haired masked man is actually Madara, while the short hair masked man is Tobi. No one can grow hair that long in short time. Why cut it off if it grows that long


It's possible.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Plausiblable, but where did Tobi get Zetsu's body? Where did he learn the knowledge to implant zetsu's body into him. It seems like right after Obito's death. He was immediately converted to a new belief, learnt space and time jutsu, have Zetsu's body integrated into him, and invaded Konoha. All these are done in a relatively short time span of 1-2 years.



For Obito theory, there are possible explanations:

1- He was saved by Madara and LIVED because of the Zetsu goo body parts, we've already seen Tobi heal himself and replace parts in minutes with them.

2- When trained by one of the strongest characters in the series, Madara, Why is it so crazy that he became powerful.

3- with the MS, they have shown capable of learning fast, look how fast Sasuke mastered amaterasu and susanoo

4- Changing beliefs ISNT impossible, he just had a traumatic experience, Trauma changes people, like it or not, and with some sharingan BRAINWASHING/PUSHING by Madara, again not impossible. On top of that look at Itachis statement that makes it possible. 
Obito was like Naruto. and as Itachi said: 
No shit.
No shit.
No shit.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont care if there is a chance Tobi could have been lying, its not what i think... if i think Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan then im going to say it
> 
> its not my style to sit here and give a diplomatic answer and say "oh there is always some doubt..." but ok, i'll be diplomatic for a second


Then I'm afraid your "style" lacks objectivity. You can't just cherry-pick information that fits your "style." 


> as the facts stand right now, Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan (NOT Madara).... *as long as this fact remains true* then the Obito theory falls flat on its face because of timeline plotholes - i.e Obito being 5-10 years younger than Nagato


Fact? That is not a fact.

fact  (fakt)
n.
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed
b. A real occurrence; an event
c. Something believed to be true or real
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime
4. _Law_ The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence

We don't know whether Tobi actually gave Nagato the Rinnegan. It hasn't been demonstrated that Tobi actually gave Nagato the Rinnegan. It isn't believed to be true that Tobi actually gave Nagato the Rinnegan. The only evidence that supports it is his words, which happen to be unreliable.

But you don't care because... because... 

It's. Not. 

What. You... 

Think......

..............................

Edit: I wouldn't have argued with you had you only stated your _opinion_, but you're arguing based on so-called facts, which you even label as canon. That certainly makes my brain spill out of my ears.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Plausiblable, but where did Tobi get Zetsu's body? Where did he learn the knowledge to implant zetsu's body into him. It seems like right after Obito's death. He was immediately converted to a new belief, learnt space and time jutsu, have Zetsu's body integrated into him, and invaded Konoha. All these are done in a relatively short time span of 1-2 years.



As far as motive, I'd look no further than Izanami, simply because it seems like a relatively quick process, and in order for one to escape it, they'd essentially have to do it brainwashed.

Perhaps the Zetsu parts is where Orochimaru comes into play.

Obito's potential seems difficult to _accurately_ predict, in my opinion, since he was basically a _totally different_ ninja after he'd awoken his sharingan.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> For Obito theory, there are possible explanations:
> 
> 1- He was saved by Madara and LIVED because of the Zetsu goo body parts, we've already seen Tobi heal himself and replace parts in minutes with them.
> 
> ...




All of these theories are plausible. I wonder why can't Madara himself use Space Time jutsu if he trained Tobi and also. Itachi also believe Naruto and Shisui shared the same goal and ideals.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> All of these theories are plausible. I wonder why can't Madara himself use Space Time jutsu if he trained Tobi and also. Itachi also believe Naruto and Shisui shared the same goal and ideals.



Yeah, but Itachi watched Shisui died, and had both his eyes. No reason for Shisui to give his eye away and lose another one if his plan was to be the masked man tobi.
And its not impossible to train characters in moves that you don't possess. He could have helped him awaken the MS, and then went on to training him and teaching him to make kyuubi his pet while sparring with the s/t jutsu.
Tobi has 'trained' sasuke by making him fight to advance his MS.
Kakashi trained naruto in combning shape and nature to highest degree for FRS.
Jiraiya trained Naruto in accessing kyuubi chakra even though he himself isnt a Jin.

See my point?


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> As far as motive, I'd look no further than Izanami, simply because it seems like a relatively quick process, and in order for one to escape it, they'd essentially have to do it brainwashed.
> 
> Perhaps the Zetsu parts is where Orochimaru comes into play.
> 
> Obito's potential seems difficult to _accurately_ predict, in my opinion, since he was basically a _totally different_ ninja after he'd awoken his sharingan.


So what if the long haired real Madara used Izanami which made his right eye blind just the same as Itachi.
Mwah, i actually don't really buy the Izanami stuff, but on the other side how did Itachi learn the Izanami stuff then perhaps from the real masked Madara?


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So what if the long haired real Madara used Izanami which made his right eye blind just the same as Itachi.
> Mwah, i actually don't really buy the Izanami stuff, but on the other side how did Itachi learn the Izanami stuff then perhaps from the real masked Madara?



Perhaps the ems can't lose its light, and Madara performed Izanami on Obito. Or maybe Obito chose to be saved by Zetsu, or Madara, or whoever, for his studentship and loyalty. Those seem plausible, in my opinion.


----------



## Talis (Jul 30, 2012)

If the long haired masked man was the real Madara he also had an 1 eye holed mask, i doubt that he was also hiding his other Sharingan just as Tobi.
His other eye was probably shut down of Izanami.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Yeah, but Itachi watched Shisui died, and had both his eyes. No reason for Shisui to give his eye away and lose another one if his plan was to be the masked man tobi.
> And its not impossible to train characters in moves that you don't possess. He could have helped him awaken the MS, and then went on to training him and teaching him to make kyuubi his pet while sparring with the s/t jutsu.
> Tobi has 'trained' sasuke by making him fight to advance his MS.
> Kakashi trained naruto in combning shape and nature to highest degree for FRS.
> ...



Well actually. One of Shisui's eye was stolen by Danzo. Fear Danzo would stole his other eye, he gave it Itachi before he dies. If Tobi is Shisui, this explains why he attacked Danzo and tried to take his eye. His body was found drowned in the river but was later mysteriously disappeared as Kabuto cannot find any trace of it.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> All of these theories are plausible. I wonder why can't Madara himself use Space Time jutsu if he trained Tobi and also.


I believe Mistshadow explained this for you. 



> Itachi also believe Naruto and Shisui shared the same goal and ideals.


Yes, but Obito was an EXACT Parallel to Naruto. And I've already explained why it can't be Shisui.

Obito is the most plausible theory, with Izuna coming right after.

There's no way Tobi can be someone other than those two.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Well actually. One of Shisui's eye was stolen by Danzo. Fear Danzo would stole his other eye, he gave it Itachi before he dies. If Tobi is Shisui, this explains why he attacked Danzo and tried to take his eye. His body was found drowned in the river but was later mysteriously disappeared as Kabuto cannot find any trace of it.



The thing about that is that Tobi didn't really refer to Shisui as "me".


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:
			
		

> Well actually. One of Shisui's eye was stolen by Danzo. Fear Danzo would stole his other eye, he gave it Itachi before he dies. If Tobi is Shisui, this explains why he attacked Danzo and tried to take his eye.


But Tobi still had his Space-Time eye before and after Shisui lost his eyes. 



> His body was found drowned in the river but was later mysteriously disappeared as Kabuto cannot find any trace of it.


The fact that his body wasn't found is evidence enough that he isn't Tobi. Kabuto probably can't find his body because the Uchiha destroyed it.


----------



## ovanz (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobi is Rin with Obito eyes using White Fang Body and its following Teruichi the ramen guy evil orders.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But Tobi still had his Space-Time eye before and after Shisui lost his eyes.
> 
> The fact that his body wasn't found is evidence enough that he isn't Tobi. Kabuto probably can't find his body because the Uchiha destroyed it.



We don't know if the kyuubi invasion happened before Shisui's death or not. And how is Shisui's body wasn't found was enough evidence he isn't Tobi. Shouldn't it be the opposite? Remind me the chapter where it stated that his corpse was destroyed by Uchiha.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> We don't know if the kyuubi invasion happened before Shisui's death or not.



Huh? He clearly died after the Kyuubi attack. Itachi killed him shortly before the Uchiha Massacre.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> We don't know if the kyuubi invasion happened before Shisui's death or not.


Shisui's death happened after Kurama's attack and right before the massacre. Itachi was 9 during the attack and 14 when Shisui died. 





> And how is Shisui's body wasn't found was enough evidence he isn't Tobi. Shouldn't it be the opposite?


I'm saying the fact that his body WAS found is evidence against it. 





> Remind me the chapter where it stated that his corpse was destroyed by Uchiha.


As of now, it's just speculation, but it would explain why his corpse was found and yet  Kabuto couldn't find it.





			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> Huh? He clearly died after the Kyuubi attack. Itachi killed him shortly before the Uchiha Massacre.


Didn't Shisui commit suicide?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Didn't Shisui commit suicide?



Itachi helped or something.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Jul 30, 2012)

Tobi is Obito


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 30, 2012)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Tobi is Obito



That's not Zetsu.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

the point of Itachi Shisui confirmation of death is the fact that Itachi noted that Shisui ERASED his existence after his death, or he helped him. The specifics are unknown, but its either likely he amaterasu'd to get rid of the body, or the uchihas were telling the truth and really did find his drowned body (unlikely) and they hid it.


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> the point of Itachi Shisui confirmation of death is the fact that Itachi noted that Shisui ERASED his existence after his death, or he helped him. The specifics are unknown, but its either likely he amaterasu'd to get rid of the body, or the uchihas were telling the truth and really did find his drowned body (unlikely) and they hid it.


This makes sense. This seems like the most logical explanation for why Kabuto couldn't find Shisui's body.


----------



## Thebaxman (Jul 30, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This makes sense. This seems like the most logical explanation for why Kabuto couldn't find Shisui's body.



And now because you think it's the most ''logical'' you're going to act like it's a fact and use it to back you up, you have been saying a lot of BS and when someone calls you out on it you always say it's ''speculation''. Loser Tobito believers bug me so much


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> And now because you think it's the most ''logical'' you're going to act like it's a fact and use it to back you up,


I said it seemed very logical. Not once did I claim that it was a fact. Stop making assumptions just to bash people who believe in a theory you don't believe in. 





> you have been saying a lot of BS and when someone calls you out on it you always say it's ''speculation''.


No shit. It's ALL speculation. What else do you want me to call it, smart guy? If you think what I say is BS, that's your problem. Open your mind a little.





> Loser Tobito believers bug me so much


We'll bug you even more when it's revealed.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 30, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> And now because you think it's the most ''logical'' you're going to act like it's a fact and use it to back you up, you have been saying a lot of BS and when someone calls you out on it you always say it's ''speculation''. Loser Tobito believers bug me so much



Who the HELL said anything about FACT? Stop making up BS and putting words in people's mouths. I offered it as ONE of MANY possibilities. It just seems the most logical considering Itachi was the last person to see Shisui ALIVE and being his 'brother' in a way. How else can a dead man get rid of his existence? 
Amaterasu has been proven to incinerate things into nothingness, which Itachi gained after Shisui died. So yes its VERY likely thats the reason Kabuto couldn't acquire his dna samples, because there is NOTHING left.

Uchiha's could have lied about recovering the body, we just know for certain they had a note. they also believed Itachi wrote the note, but we all know it was Shisui who wrote it. Could Uchiha's have actually gotten body? Yes but they destroyed it apparently, probably similar to how Hyuuga's destroy their eyes after death.

Danzo had no reason to go for the body since he had already gotten what he wanted, one of his eyes.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Shisui's death happened after Kurama's attack and right before the massacre. Itachi was 9 during the attack and 14 when Shisui died. I'm saying the fact that his body WAS found is evidence against it. As of now, it's just speculation, but it would explain why his corpse was found and yet  Kabuto couldn't find it.Didn't Shisui commit suicide?



Where was the notion of Shisui's death happened after Kurama's attack indicated in the manga? I don't remember a specific dates was given indicating whether it happened before or after the Kyuubi invasion. His body was found and mysterious disappeared was reason to doubt if Shisui had truly died. Itachi could have Amateratsu his corpse but Sasuke would have seen it in his memory world.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Where was the notion of Shisui's death happened after Kurama's attack indicated in the manga? I don't remember a specific dates was given indicating whether it happened before or after the Kyuubi invasion. His body was found and mysterious disappeared was reason to doubt if Shisui had truly died. Itachi could have Amateratsu his corpse but Sasuke would have seen it in his memory world.



It Happened AFTER the kyuubi attack. 
Kyuubi attack Sasuke was an infant, less than 1 years old, naruto was just born.
Shisui died JUST before the massacre, while Sasuke was in the Academy, and Itachi was interrogated by fellow Uchiha's for it and believed he was acting weird. Sasuke asked his father, thats why Sasuke could TALK, he wasn't an infant, about other sharingan forms existing. 
Uchiha Massacre happens, Itachi leaves village, Sasuke had sharingan active without realizing it and passes out. Sasuke wants revenge.

LEARN TO USE YOUR BRAIN. Logic and deductive reasoning is your friend.

edit: Itachi was the last one to see Shisui alive, and was likely there for his death, assisted suicide, ever hear of it? very likely that's what happened to get rid of the body. Shisui didn't want to elave a shred of his existence.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> It Happened AFTER the kyuubi attack.
> Kyuubi attack Sasuke was an infant, less than 1 years old, naruto was just born.
> Shisui died JUST before the massacre, while Sasuke was in the Academy, and Itachi was interrogated by fellow Uchiha's for it and believed he was acting weird. Sasuke asked his father, thats why Sasuke could TALK, he wasn't an infant, about other sharingan forms existing.
> Uchiha Massacre happens, Itachi leaves village, Sasuke had sharingan active without realizing it and passes out. Sasuke wants revenge.
> ...



There is no need to get defensive dude. My hypothesis is about just as well rounded as anyone at this point. I'm all for Tobi = Obito's theory as well but that doesn't mean I'm open to other theories. Learn to have a sense of entitlement and respect others opinion. After all, logic doesn't apply in a world when dead people can come back to life.


----------



## Thebaxman (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I said it seemed very logical. Not once did I claim that it was a fact. Stop making assumptions just to bash people who believe in a theory you don't believe in. No shit. It's ALL speculation. What else do you want me to call it, smart guy? If you think what I say is BS, that's your problem. Open your mind a little.We'll bug you even more when it's revealed.



Haha your boner for Obito is so big. Obito has too many plot holes in his theories. What you are trying to tell people is that someone who was crushed by an avalanche of rocks (we even saw it) was repaired by zetsu goo and within 2 years is capable of taking on Minato. If someone can train such a scrub to become so strong in 2 years then they must be god. On top of that he's even controlling the fox. If it is Obito it obviously won't be under his control because he lived by the will of fire and the show will turn out gay and ruined if this was the case. So maybe your boner is so big because you're gay and you are really supportive of a gay anti-climatic reveal.. amirite?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> There is no need to get defensive dude. My hypothesis is about just as well rounded as anyone at this point. I'm all for Tobi = Obito's theory as well but that doesn't mean I'm open to other theories. Learn to have a sense of entitlement and respect others opinion. After all, logic doesn't apply in a world when dead people can come back to life.



I never once said Obito is the only possibility, I say its the likeliest, I haven't bashed a single theory once without a legitimate reason.

What I was bashing is you thinking Shisui died around kyuubi attack time when that is completely and utterly wrong. You don't seem to get it, he died years later during Naruto and Sasuke academy days. That's when Itachi acquired his MS around age 11-14 (I forget and don't feel like doing math), not when he was 5 or 6. 
And Itachi being there for his death and him losing both koto eyes points to him not possibly being Tobi because this Tobi had s/t which shisui didn't have.




Thebaxman said:


> Haha your boner for Obito is so big. Obito has too many plot holes in his theories. What you are trying to tell people is that someone who was crushed by an avalanche of rocks (we even saw it) was repaired by zetsu goo and within 2 years is capable of taking on Minato. If someone can train such a scrub to become so strong in 2 years* then they must be god*. On top of that he's even controlling the fox. If it is Obito it obviously won't be under his control because he lived by the will of fire and the show will turn out gay and ruined if this was the case. So maybe your boner is so big because you're gay and you are really supportive of a gay anti-climatic reveal.. amirite?



Uchiha Madara has displayed abilities and insight to be pretty damn comparable to a god. Or need I refresh your memory troll?
her flashback
The man who made the kyuubi his pet, you say he can't teach someone else to do the same with the blessed eyes?
her flashback

And Tobi never fought on same level as Minato through sheer skill. He had a hax jutsu that makes him pretty near impossible to hit, unless the other person ALSO has a S/T jutsu, which just BARELY worked in time, but Tobi could still get away. With an intangible teleporting S/Tjutsu like Tobi's, almost anyone can fight on that level as long as they practice it a lot.

Yeah, read a few pages before you post newb troll


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> Where was the notion of Shisui's death happened after Kurama's attack indicated in the manga? I don't remember a specific dates was given indicating whether it happened before or after the Kyuubi invasion. His body was found and mysterious disappeared was reason to doubt if Shisui had truly died. Itachi could have Amateratsu his corpse but Sasuke would have seen it in his memory world.


It's confirmed that Shisui's death was after Kurama's attack. Itachi was 9 during the attack and 14 during the massacre.



Thebaxman said:


> Haha your boner for Obito is so big. Obito has too many plot holes in his theories. What you are trying to tell people is that someone who was crushed by an avalanche of rocks (we even saw it) was repaired by zetsu goo and within 2 years is capable of taking on Minato. If someone can train such a scrub to become so strong in 2 years then they must be god. On top of that he's even controlling the fox. If it is Obito it obviously won't be under his control because he lived by the will of fire and the show will turn out gay and ruined if this was the case. So maybe your boner is so big because you're gay and you are really supportive of a gay anti-climatic reveal.. amirite?




Is there one of you people against this theory who can argue against this theory without being completely immature and irrational? I'd almost regained hope until _you_ showed up.

I don't know what plotholes you're talking about. List them and I'll refute them. Simple as that.

For the record, Tobi being Obito would be a great, climactic twist and tie up the story perfectly. Look deeper into the manga you're reading. The evidence is there. Don't bother replying if you're going to be immature again. it's annoying...

Also, how is Obito anti-climactic when he's the only Tobi candidate to have appeared in more than 2 panels?

He's pretty much the only one who'd actually be climactic. Except maybe Izuna but I highly doubt it's him.

Please use your brain more for future debates.


*@Nesha:* I'm not flaming. Don't delete this.


----------



## Thebaxman (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I never once said Obito is the only possibility, I say its the likeliest, I haven't bashed a single theory once without a legitimate reason.
> 
> What I was bashing is you thinking Shisui died around kyuubi attack time when that is completely and utterly wrong. You don't seem to get it, he died years later during Naruto and Sasuke academy days. That's when Itachi acquired his MS around age 11-14 (I forget and don't feel like doing math), not when he was 5 or 6.
> And Itachi being there for his death and him losing both koto eyes points to him not possibly being Tobi because this Tobi had s/t which shisui didn't have.
> ...



No, in reality you tobito nubs are the real trolls. Obito is one of the last people to be talked in to controlling the fox and destroying his own village. Look how stupid this theory is. Call me a troll all you want I have not even read over 5 chapters of Naruto in my life, but based off my knowledge of obito and what the masked man was doing against minato it is obvious that it is not obito. It wouldn't even be cool or good if it was Obito on top of that. The theories are so flawed to the point where noobs like me who don't even read or watch Naruto can point out some plotholes. You remember when kisame and obito were boys? Kisame recognized him without the mask because they definitely knew each other. You remember how Obito lived by the Will of Fire? Funny how it doesn't take much to change that all of a sudden. Seriously wtf is this there are more plotholes than supporting facts in the theory maybe that's why you nubs get hate


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> No, in reality you tobito nubs are the real trolls. Obito is one of the last people to be talked in to controlling the fox and destroying his own village. Look how stupid this theory is. Call me a troll all you want I have not even read over 5 chapters of Naruto in my life, but based off my knowledge of obito and what the masked man was doing against minato it is obvious that it is not obito. It wouldn't even be cool or good if it was Obito on top of that. The theories are so flawed to the point where noobs like me who don't even read or watch Naruto can point out some plotholes. You remember when kisame and obito were boys? Kisame recognized him without the mask because they definitely knew each other. You remember how Obito lived by the Will of Fire? Funny how it doesn't take much to change that all of a sudden. Seriously wtf is this there are more plotholes than supporting facts in the theory maybe that's why you nubs get hate




You had no credibility to begin with but now you're in the negatives.(Implying you weren't before...)

If you've only read 5 chapters of Naruto then you have no right to start bashing theories.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> *Call me a troll all you want I have not even read over 5 chapters of Naruto in my life, but*



go away


/endconversation


----------



## jacamo (Jul 31, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Then I'm afraid your "style" lacks objectivity. You can't just cherry-pick information that fits your "style."
> Fact? That is not a fact.
> 
> fact  (fakt)
> ...



im not cherry-picking information... what im doing is picking a side, making a prediction... im not sitting on the fence acting like a diplomatic whore 

if it was actually Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then it will be explicitly said at a later date... but until then, it remains canon fact that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan... thats the reality of the situation, or can you not deal with that?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 31, 2012)

It isn't canon.

There's nothing aside from his own words that suggest it.

At best it's of questionable canonicity.

At worst it likely didn't happen.


----------



## Easley (Jul 31, 2012)

Tobi and Madara knowing each other is a strike against Obito. I don't see how they could have met if Madara died when Nagato was young. It just feels wrong. That doesn't rule out his eye/body being used, but Obito himself is very unlikely.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi and Madara knowing each other is a strike against Obito. I don't see how they could have met if Madara died when Nagato was young. It just feels wrong. That doesn't rule out his eye/body being used, but Obito himself is very unlikely.


Why? I don't see why Madara couldn't have met Obito.

Although, if it's not obito then it's Izuna.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 31, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi and Madara knowing each other is a strike against Obito. I don't see how they could have met if Madara died when Nagato was young. It just feels wrong. That doesn't rule out his eye/body being used, but Obito himself is very unlikely.



ah yes... plothole no.7


*Spoiler*: __ 



chapter references are all from narutobase

*Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.

*Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

*Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

*Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation. 

*Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi. 

*Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.

*Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito. 

*Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born. 

*Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito. 

*Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.

*THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL*
Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito

Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


----------



## Easley (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why? I don't see why Madara couldn't have met Obito.


If Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan shortly before his death, I doubt Obito was even born.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 31, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi and Madara knowing each other is a strike against Obito. I don't see how they could have met if Madara died when Nagato was young. It just feels wrong. That doesn't rule out his eye/body being used, but Obito himself is very unlikely.



It's been obvious that they know each other since Tobi has a rather intimate knowledge of Madara's past, and Tobi was apparently entrusted with gathering the bijuu by Madara.

But there are ways that they can know each other without timeline shenanigans.


----------



## Easley (Jul 31, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> But there are ways that they can know each other without timeline shenanigans.


I can't think of a way right now, but I'm sure Kishi could concoct something.

Tobi should be someone totally unexpected. When you've waited this long anything less than a WTF moment is a failure. Ever since he claimed to be an Uchiha, people have argued about the same characters. It would be great if he's lying about that too.


----------



## Xin (Jul 31, 2012)

Hmm, i wonder... (the part top right in both pictures)


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 31, 2012)

Easley said:


> I can't think of a way right now, but I'm sure Kishi could concoct something.



A couple of ways I can think of:

-Madara left a fragment of himself behind much like Kushina and Minato did with Naruto. (Most likely IMO)
-Tobi resurrected Madara temporarily in order to speak with him (Less likely but still possible)
-Zetsu and Tobi share a psychic link and Zetsu recorded some of Madara's memories, which Tobi is able to view (Long shot)



> Tobi should be someone totally unexpected. When you've waited this long anything less than a WTF moment is a failure. Ever since he claimed to be an Uchiha, people have argued about the same characters. It would be great if he's lying about that too.



I feel like most people would feel cheated if it were a completely new character.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not cherry-picking information... what im doing is picking a side, making a prediction...


You argue that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan because he said so, even though there exists information that suggests the contrary. You pick only the evidence that seemingly supports your claim and disregard the fact that Tobi had been taking credit for Madara's actions until only recently. Sounds like cherry picking to me.


> if it was actually Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then it will be explicitly said at a later date... but until then, it remains canon fact that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan...


If a fictional element is canon, it cannot be contradicted. The possibility that Tobi wasn't telling the truth allows contradiction.

Yet you still have the audacity to argue the opposite. 


> thats the reality of the situation, or can you not deal with that?


The reality of the situation is that we can't come to a conclusion yet, as far as the veracity of Tobi's words is concerned. That's what I'm comfortably dealing with. 

To run around like a cynical old charlatan preaching that Tobi's potentially false claim is a "hole" in the Tobito theory is nothing short of asinine. If that was the alternative, I guess being a "diplomatic whore" would be better (whatever that means).


> *Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
> "This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but  there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito...


And who ever said Tobi had to have worked with Madara?


----------



## Timeshift (Jul 31, 2012)

You cannot prove anything in a fictional story like this. What you can do is to make theories of what course the story likely will take if condition x is met.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 31, 2012)

If long hair masked man is Madara then Madara was alive within 16 years based on Kisame's age (32).  Kisame looked to be a teen to young adult.


----------



## Talis (Jul 31, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I feel like most people would feel cheated if it were a completely new character.


The fact that Kishi said try to keep guessing his identity simply hints us that it's someone we know.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Jul 31, 2012)

Well since Kishi is gonna reveal Tobi i wonder if that is tobi s real origin (like Kagami, Obito, etc) or will it be turn out to be the coverup of one from the past  (like elder son, rikudo, etc).

However my personal fav would be juubi because i cant remember that in any story i read where the villian is actually the remains of the ultimate evil power he tries to gain.(l would call it the mac guffin was the mastermind ). But i doubt it.

I just hope it is not Obito. Im not a fan when the dog was the mastermind, especially when it is supposed to be a dead one-eyed puppy under a rock.


----------



## Tasq21 (Jul 31, 2012)

not really surprising but nice to hear it from Kishi himself.

[ 1 ]


----------



## takL (Jul 31, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> Link removed



several weeks became a few weeks and now its a couple of weeks.

with the obon break next week it has to be this week i dont think.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 31, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> not really surprising but nice to hear it from Kishi himself.
> 
> Link removed



I think kishi himself just put the final coffin in the madara/clone theory


----------



## Velocity (Jul 31, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> not really surprising but nice to hear it from Kishi himself.
> 
> Link removed



Right, so Tobi and Madara knew each other and we should find out Tobi's identity by the end of August. Curious and curiouser.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 31, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> You argue that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan because he said so, even though there exists information that suggests the contrary. You pick only the evidence that seemingly supports your claim and disregard the fact that Tobi had been taking credit for Madara's actions until only recently. Sounds like cherry picking to me.



im not cherry picking because ive already refuted this "information that suggests the contrary"

if you choose not to accept it then thats up to you... the vast majority of readers have already accepted that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan



> If a fictional element is canon, it cannot be contradicted. The possibility that Tobi wasn't telling the truth allows contradiction.
> 
> Yet you still have the audacity to argue the opposite.
> The reality of the situation is that we can't come to a conclusion yet, as far as the veracity of Tobi's words is concerned. That's what I'm comfortably dealing with.
> ...



ok, so your opinion is that Tobi lied... if you werent such a diplomatic whore you would have just said so 

good luck with your 0.0001% chance



> And who ever said Tobi had to have worked with Madara?







back to the real topic at hand... there is no way Obito could have given Nagato the Rinnegan because there is a 5-10 year age gap... obvious plothole is obvious


----------



## Easley (Jul 31, 2012)

Tobi and Madara knowing each other can also mean they devised the Moon's Eye plan together. It's possible that Tobi betrayed Madara and kept it for himself. I'm not sure how Nagato fits into this. Tobi was talking to a corpse when he mentioned _his_ betrayal. All these guys are backstabbers - it's the ninja way. 

I'm 90% sure that Tobi is from Madara's time. The other 10% is for crazy stuff you can't predict.

Izuna is a strong possibility but the main characters don't know him. That hurts the reveal, unless Madara arrives on the scene to ID him. Not sure I like that either. Whoever he is, I'd like him to be well-known.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not cherry picking because ive already refuted this "information that suggests the contrary"
> 
> if you choose not to accept it then thats up to you... the vast majority of readers have already accepted that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan



The amount of people that accept an idea doesn't reflect the aptness of it. That's called .

And you've only responded to an interpretation of an event with your own interpretation. For some reason, you believe that yours is worth more, and expect for others to accept it as "canon" without any evidence.



jacamo said:


> ok, so your opinion is that Tobi lied... if you werent such a diplomatic whore you would have just said so
> 
> good luck with your 0.0001% chance
> 
> ...



If Tobi wasn't speaking on behalf of Madara, then your claim would be, at best, close to canon. However, he says that he's Madara, and therefore he was speaking as Madara, by all accounts. Just because we know that he's not Madara does not automatically mean that the rest of his statements must reference his own actions, as opposed to them just being false as well. This is why what you're saying is merely an opinion. Why can't you understand this? 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're confused as to why his "admissions" to Konan including him as Madara is significant to the rest of his statements, as opposed to your real intention being just to frustrate any opposing arguments.

I'll make it simple for you.

If his statements about Yahiko and Nagato came before his statement that he's Madara, then it's possible that they were contingencies. 

Meaning that in order for them to be possible, much less true, then his statement that he was Madara has to first be true, because they depend on that statement to be a fact first. Like you being able to breath with human lungs is dependent on you first being a human. You're saying that they're not contingencies because "it's obvious".

Your job is to _document_ why this



isn't contingent upon this


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Chibason (Jul 31, 2012)

Tobi, while claiming to be Madara,  made many statements that actually applied to Madara...I don't think we should assume those statements were lies, just because Tobi was falsely claiming them to be his own actions.

Specifically, regarding the "I gave Nagato the rinnegan" statement, he was more than likely referring to actions made by Madara imho...


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Kishi said that alot of unpredictable(to the readers) events were going to happen. if it's that unpredictable it might be an explanation on how Madara knew Obito. He also said there would be some twists to make readers go "aha". Alot of people think Tobi is Obito due to how obvious it is and the evidence for it. So, if he IS obito, alot of people will definitely go "aha!"





Chibason said:


> Tobi, while claiming to be Madara,  made many statements that actually applied to Madara...I don't think we should assume those statements were lies, just because Tobi was falsely claiming them to be his own actions.
> 
> Specifically, regarding the "I gave Nagato the rinnegan" statement, he was more than likely referring to actions made by Madara imho...


It could go either way, really.

if Tobi's claim was true, then Tobi cannot be Obito. However, if his claim was false, Tobi can still possibly be Obito.







I think I'll go at this again.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.


Keep this if you want. My refutations for this one are based on speculation. 



> *Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.


There are already certainthings to suggest part of a motive for Obito. And also, alot of characters have changed in this manga. Look at Nagato. Remember, Tobi IS sort of trying to achieve his own twisted sense of peace.

This is NOT a plothole. Take it off your list.




> *Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.


This was fucking vague. Keep that on, I guess.



> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.


We don't know if he recognized him as Madara, if he remembered him from before, or if he just recognized the ability to control him. Kurama's "You!" was too vague. You can't call it a plothole. but, as it WAS vague, you could probably keep this one on.



> *Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.


Ever heard of a GROWTH SPURT?! Besides, Kakashi looked really tall for his age and Obitom was taller than Kakashi in Gaiden. Kurama's attack took place roughly 2-3 years after Gaiden. It is far from impossible to be that tall. People grow at different rates. Minato was 5'9, adn there are even real life examples of people around 14, 15. 16 being around, like 6'9.

This is NOT a plothole at ALL. Take it off your list.




> *Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.


How do you know that Minato can sense chakra? This isn't a plothole. Take it off the list.



> *Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.


This whole thing is based on some vague things. But keep it on. it's a fairly strong point.



> *Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.


This is a pretty good one. keep it on.



> *Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.


Too vague but keep it on, I guess.



> *Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.


The Tablet, and history lessons from Madara/Zetsu. Eh, keep it on anyway.



> THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL
> 
> 
> *Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito*
> Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


I believe we've discussed this enough already. this is not a plothole until proven otherwise. Take it off.


----------



## αce (Jul 31, 2012)

Just for an accurate number here, how many people think Tobi is a 28-30 year old Obito who just turned evil?


----------



## Talis (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kishi said that alot of unpredictable(to the readers) events were going to happen. if it's that unpredictable it might be an explanation on how Madara knew Obito. He also said there would be some twists to make readers go "aha". Alot of people think Tobi is Obito due to how obvious it is and the evidence for it. So, if he IS obito, alot of people will definitely go "aha!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hilarious how all these ''plotholes'' are against Kagami as well, and yet bitching around about Obito plotholes.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 31, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Hilarious how all these ''plotholes'' are against Kagami as well, and yet bitching around about Obito plotholes.



Lol, Kagami has no plot.


----------



## copydog123 (Jul 31, 2012)

*Tobi is Obito's father?*

Think about it. 

*Similar names* - 
We have Ino/Inoichi, Shikaku/Shikamaru, Minato/Naruto, Hiashi/Hanabi, Hizashi/Neji (ok not that similar )....


*Similar power* - Time space
Yes, kamui is part of kakashi's power but given that the sharingan was Obito's, all hints point that if Obitio awakened MS, then he would have had kamui.

Tobi's fighting style literally revolves around manipulating space/time


*Similar hairstyle* - enough said



*FINALLY!!!! Motif - I am no one. *
And who was Uchiha Obito? He literally was no one. In the sense that he was never noticed (even kakashi overlooked him).

What better motive for Tobi than to avenge his son by dominating the world and still sticking to "I am no one" philosophy? The whole world will be simply puppets and yet not notice who the puppet master is - that is mugen tsukuyomi's main motivation. 
Poetic justice.


*And one more...*
There is no indication that Tobi is really that old. His wrinkles can easily be reconciled with the timeline if he is Obito's dad. 
There is no indication that he is Madara or any indication that he has lived 100 years or before that. 


Golden kishi.
What a disconnected plotline to bring to the climax.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 31, 2012)

copydog123 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> *Similar names* -
> We have Ino/Inoichi, Shikaku/Shikamaru, Minato/Naruto, Hiashi/Hanabi, Hizashi/Neji (ok not that similar )....
> ...



No, just *NO*. We've never seen Obito's dad. Therefore, he is a new character if he ever gets shown in the manga. Tobi is not a new character. He is someone that we already know. If he was a completely new character then why would Kishi hide his identity for so long? It's someone that we have already seen. That's one thing for sure.

And don't use hairstyles to prove your theory. I've tried proving the Kagami theory using hairstyles and it didn't work.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> However my personal fav would be juubi because i cant remember that in any story i read where the villian is actually the remains of the ultimate evil power he tries to gain.(l would call it the mac guffin was the mastermind ). But i doubt it.
> 
> I just hope it is not Obito. Im not a fan when the dog was the mastermind, especially when it is supposed to be a dead one-eyed puppy under a rock.



Yugioh did it.
Zorc was Yami Bakura


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not cherry picking because ive already refuted this "information that suggests the contrary"


Oh. I didn't know ignoring information meant "refuting" it. 


> if you choose not to accept it then thats up to you... the vast majority of readers have already accepted that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan


Apparently you are willing to ignore the definition of canon, i.e., that which cannot be refuted or contradicted. Your claims are nothing but conjecture. So are mine, but I don't base them on ostensible information or so-called facts and run around like a headless chicken, announcing that I've made irrefutable arguments. 

The barest essentials of elementary reasoning would tell you to avoid thinking in absolutes and making definite conclusions based on mere possibilities. 


> ok, so your opinion is that Tobi lied...


My opinion is that Tobi could have been lying. 




> good luck with your 0.0001% chance


Like the slim chance Orochimaru had a horcrux-like method of returning even though we couldn't foresee the logic behind it, eh? Even now the logic is a little unclear.


> back to the real topic at hand... there is no way Obito could have given Nagato the Rinnegan because there is a 5-10 year age gap... obvious plothole is obvious


Nothing in this manga presupposes that Tobi and Nagato had to have met for the Rinnegan transfer. Nothing confirms that they did meet for that purpose, either.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

I still, no matter how hard I try, can't see why people think Tobi is Kagami Uchiha. I mean, WTF?! Really... There is NO evidence supporting him and yet people are so confident in it like it's the best theory or something. Okay, let's see what they've got for evidence:


Kagami supporters say: "His name means mirror. This could explain how he was "mirroring" Madara."

I say: So? A name alone won't prove anything if there's no other evidence in the theory.



Kagami supporters say: "Kagami was on Team Tobirama. He could have learned Space-Time Ninjutsu from him. He also derived his alias, "Tobi" from Tobirama."

I say: No. Kagami's team teamed up with Tobirama's team for only one mission during the entire First Ninja War. Tobirama wouldn't have had time to teach him anything. About the name. That is false. Like someone else pointed out, the Japanese characters for Tobi and Tobirama are very different. So, if Kagami shortened his name, he'd get "Tobira".



Kagami supporters say: "Kagami wasn't there during Kurama's attack because he's Tobi!"

I say: Um, no. None of the Uchiha were there during the attack for reasons currently unknown. Kagami being missing does not point to him at all.



Kagami supporters say: "Tobi was very familiar with Danzo's jutsu! And he seemed to know Danzo personally! This is because they were on the same team!

I say: Tobi knows alot of things. Knowing some of Danzo's jutsu doesn't mean he knew him personally. 



Kagami supporters say: "If Kagami were still alive he'd be of old age. Tobi appears to be of old age too!"

I say: So? Izuna would be of old age if he was still alive too. Kagami being of old age doesn't mean anything. Most of the Tobi candidates are said to be of old age if they're still alive.




So, yeah. There is literally no evidence for this theory. Sure it has no "plotholes", but so what? It has no plotholes because we don't know anything about him. All of the other theories have so called "plotholes" because we actually know thing about them and certain things might make people think they're not Tobi. But that's because whenever Tobi is revealed, Kishi will explain things once it's revealed. Of course we can't know everything beforehand.

No one would recognize Kagami. So no one's going to shout out "KAGAMI!" to give us a hint during the reveal. And we won't recognize his face. How would we know who he is then?!?! If Kagami were to have more story importance, such as being Tobi, he would have been brought up more. 


This theory has NO evidence and I don't see why people consider it so plausible and think it's the best theory.

Seriously. Kagami supporters, after reading this, if you still think Tobi is Kagami, then why? I've just pointed out why it makes no sense so why are you still so confident in it? What reasons do you still have to think he's Tobi?



loool3 said:


> Hilarious how all these ''plotholes'' are against Kagami as well, and yet bitching around about Obito plotholes.


Actually, none of them really apply to Kagami. Although this is because Kagami, like Raventhal said, has no plot. He just can't be Tobi.



copydog123 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> *Similar names* -
> We have Ino/Inoichi, Shikaku/Shikamaru, Minato/Naruto, Hiashi/Hanabi, Hizashi/Neji (ok not that similar )....
> ...


No. Tobi has to be a character we've seen before.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, just *NO*. We've never seen Obito's dad. Therefore, he is a new character if he ever gets shown in the manga. Tobi is not a new character. He is someone that we already know. If he was a completely new character then why would Kishi hide his identity for so long? It's someone that we have already seen. That's one thing for sure.
> 
> And don't use hairstyles to prove your theory. I've tried proving the Kagami theory using hairstyles and it didn't work.


Virtually all the things you just said apply to Kagami as well. We've never gotten an accurate view of his face. We won't recognize him.

Tobi needs to be a character that we recognize. Kagami doesn't fit that bill.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Atm I'm leaning towards Tobi being Izuna, but I can't completely disregard Tobito mainly due to recent chapters.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 31, 2012)

So your telling me Kurama has met Obito before Tobi controlled him ?


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Atm I'm leaning towards Tobi being Izuna, but I can't completely disregard Tobito mainly due to recent chapters.


I'm starting to consider Izuna as well. It would make sense considering how Tobi said the Rinnegan were "his to begin with". I'm still hoping for Obito though but for some reason I can't stop thinking that it might be Izuna.





Moon Fang said:


> So your telling me Kurama has met Obito before Tobi controlled him ?


um........ no. Why would he have had to have met him?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:
			
		

> We've never gotten an accurate view of his face.



Oh, so this is not an accurate view of his face?


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm starting to consider Izuna as well. It would make sense considering how Tobi said the Rinnegan were "his to begin with". I'm still hoping for Obito though but for some reason I can't stop thinking that it might be Izuna.



I think exactly the same thing but the other way around:

_I'm starting to consider *Obito* as well. I'm still hoping for *Izuna* though but for some reason I can't stop thinking that it might be *Obito*._

Though, like I said, I still quite strongly lean towards Tobi being Izuna.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> um........ no. Why would he have had to have met him?



He recognised him before he was controlled.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Oh, so this is not an accurate view of his face?


That was in the anime. Don't use that to support your theory as it holds no weight. In the manga(where it counts) we only got weird angles and shit and a quick, messy, un-detailed, far away view of his face. He wasn't even drawn right in the anime. What we can see of Kagami's face in the manga looks nothing like what we see in the anime.



Moon Fang said:


> He recognised him before he was controlled.


That panel was way too vague. Kurama might have thought he was Madara seeing as how Madara was the only one ever able to summon him.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> He recognised him before he was controlled.


Was it ever stated that Kurama recognized Tobi, or did he simply recognize Tobi as a user of the same Sharingan genjutsu that Madara had used to enslave him?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> So your telling me Kurama has met Obito before Tobi controlled him ?





Moon Fang said:


> He recognised him before he was controlled.



Biju see everything their host sees. This is confirmed.

Now why would obito have never met his senseis WIFE?
Exactly, kyuubi has witness obito while in kushina.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 31, 2012)

He can recognise chakra. Once Madara was summoned he knew straight away who it was.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm aware of the kyuubis abilities. You were wondering when kyuubi could have met obito. I answered so his "YOU" isnt a hole.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm aware of the kyuubis abilities. You were wondering when kyuubi could have met obito. I answered so his "YOU" isnt a hole.



Why would he respond that way to recognizing an Uchiha who was relatively weak at the time he 'first saw him'?
There's no way Obito could have impressed Kurama as he was back then.

Though I find him seeing Obito through Kushina quite a stretch, I can't say it couldn't have happened.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> He can recognise chakra. Once Madara was summoned he knew straight away who it was.


He also could have recognized the genjutsu alone, not Tobi. He said "You..." in reaction to Tobi's genjutsu. It could have meant:

1. "You... I recognize you!", 
2. "You... you possess those wretched eyes. Are you... Madara Uchiha?!", or
3. "You... that eye... this genjutsu... Who the hell are you?!"


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Why would he respond that way to recognizing an Uchiha who was relatively weak at the time he 'first saw him'?
> There's no way Obito could have impressed Kurama as he was back then.
> 
> Though I find him seeing Obito through Kushina quite a stretch, I can't say it couldn't have happened.



He would
Respond that way because he was in the process of being mind controlled which pisses him off.

Just a possibility. You know another option that Jacamo says is ImPossible
And lists as a plot hole when it's just an
Unanswered question lol.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> He would
> Respond that way because he was in the process of being mind controlled which pisses him off.
> 
> Just a possibility. You know another option that Jacamo says is ImPossible
> ...



I think it's safe to assume his reaction can be associated with the person he recognized, who in that case couldn't have been Obito.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 31, 2012)

This whole Obito stuff gives me a headache. I don't get how a drastic change in personality could happen like that without any outside interference. I would think that if Tobi was Obito he would have been alot more cautious against Minato since he was his teacher.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> This whole Obito stuff gives me a headache. I don't get how a drastic change in personality could happen like that without any outside interference. I would think that if Tobi was Obito he would have been alot more cautious since he was his teacher.



I agree, but these doubts can easily be taken away by a proper backstory Kishimoto can add.


----------



## Augors (Jul 31, 2012)

Time line wise + logical sense (plot holes )= Uchiha Kagami.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> In the manga(where it counts) we only got weird angles and shit and a quick, messy, un-detailed, far away view of his face. He wasn't even drawn right in the anime. What we can see of Kagami's face in the manga looks nothing like what we see in the anime.
> 
> That panel was way too vague. Kurama might have thought he was Madara seeing as how Madara was the only one ever able to summon him.



as Charlie Warzel of BuzzFeed once called it

How can you even say something from the official Naruto-verse wasn't right?
Both the Anime and Manga count.
If anything imagery from the manga is open to more ambiguity because it's less detailed and can't convey motions as well as an anime.
That being said I like the Manga more, but saying anime doesn't count just proves you're looking for any little thing you can to counter  *HeLLzRoLLinG's* point.

When there was a whole slew of _decent_ counter arguments you could've used, you merely attacked with "No you are wrong!"

and to his point


Originally Posted by ObitoUchiha111
We've never gotten an accurate view of his face.

The anime still counts as ever.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> as Charlie Warzel of BuzzFeed once called it
> 
> How can you even say something from the official Naruto-verse wasn't right?
> Both the Anime and Manga count.
> ...



He's right: only the things that happen in the manga are canon. The parts of the anime that aren't in the manga aren't canon and therefore do not 'count'.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> He can recognise chakra. Once Madara was summoned he knew straight away who it was.



When Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious, Kurama thought that Sasuke was _someone_ _else_ until he _actually_ recognizes him.

*Tobi*



*Sasuke*


*Spoiler*: __ 










Does this automatically mean that Sasuke _is_ the person who Kurama initially believes that the chakra is from?

There's also the possibility that Kurama only recognizes Madara's _jutsu_.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> This whole Obito stuff gives me a headache. I don't get how a drastic change in personality could happen like that without any outside interference. I would think that if Tobi was Obito he would have been alot more cautious since he was his teacher.


Didn't you just cure your own headache? "Outside interference" is a huge concept encompassing several possible kinds of help that Obito could have received. That alone should suffice as a temporary answer to the question of how he could have transformed into Tobi.

You may also find more appreciation for the theory in understanding that it doesn't necessarily posit Obito's survival. In other words, Tobi could be Obito in whole or in part. Maybe he only uses Obito's remaining eye, is part Obito, a heavily White-Zetsufied Obito, etc.

I would write Tobi as some sort of failed Madara clone, but the Obito alternative isn't impossible.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

Scizor said:


> He's right: only the things that happen in the manga are canon. The parts of the anime that aren't in the manga aren't canon and therefore do not 'count'.



but Kagami's face was shown in both the anime and the manga, therefore "canon" and therefore counts under your description.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> but Kagami's face was shown in both the anime and the manga, therefore "canon" and therefore counts under your description.



Yes, but that doesn't prove Tobi is Kagami.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Yes, but that doesn't prove Tobi is Kagami.



I agree, but your argument doesn't prove he's not.

As of right now Kagami wouldn't be that exciting of a reveal, I agree with that,
but we can't count him out either.

Izuna makes a lot of sense too.

Fugaku has the motive, but unless their's a major twist with his death probably not him, but still slightly possible from a theory perspective.
But then again we did see him die.

Obito's even less likely than Fugaku as Kishi stated in his last interview with Shounen Jump that Tobi and Madara did know each other. Which would make linking Obito to being Tobi that much more difficult. Not to mention we saw him die also.
{}
{}

Shisui is still possible, although twisting his character's personality would be hard to explain, as it would be with Obito. Then again, I don't think we've seen Shisui die, we saw him without eyes, but then again Izuna may have fought in a war without his eyes.
***Also if someone could double check me on that "haven't seen Shisui die thing" that'd be cool.


My point is, so many of us on here have our hearts set on one character or the other we all want a desired result, none of us wants to actually try to figure out who it most likely is because we're all so stubborn.
but hey, that's humanity


----------



## Scizor (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> I agree, but your argument doesn't prove he's not.



I know (as I didn't imply that) and I know we can't completely rule him out.

I just think Tobi is Izuna, as it stands now.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> but Kagami's face was shown in both the anime and the manga, therefore "canon" and therefore counts under your description.


But the one shot of Kagami's face we actually got was from a range and was sloppily drawn and no one could remember his face from just that one panel.

if he were to have an important role in the story, Kishi would have given him more panel time and detail.

but no. All we got was this: 

and this: 

The first view was from an odd angle, and the second was sloppily drawn.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I know (as I didn't imply that) and I know we can't completely rule him out.
> 
> I just think Tobi is Izuna, as it stands now.



No you didn't, but I was simply trying to defend* HeLLzRoLLinG*'s point,

Who he had originally meant to argue against *ObitoUchiha111*

Because *ObitoUchiha111* was saying that there's no way it can be Kagami.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> As of right now Kagami wouldn't be that exciting of a reveal, I agree with that,
> but we can't count him out either.


Yes we can. it should't even be a Tobi theory. There's nothing to suggest that he is Tobi. he's just another random fodder.



> Izuna makes a lot of sense too.


Yes, yes he does.



> Fugaku has the motive, but unless their's a major twist with his death probably not him, but still slightly possible from a theory perspective.
> But then again we did see him die.


??

Fugaku has no motive... what are you talking about?



> Obito's even less likely than Fugaku as Kishi stated in his last interview with Shounen Jump that Tobi and Madara did know each other. Which would make linking Obito to being Tobi that much more difficult. Not to mention we saw him die also.
> {}
> {}


You've got things mixed up. We saw Fugaku die and never saw Obito die. 



> Shisui is still possible, although twisting his character's personality would be hard to explain, as it would be with Obito. Then again, I don't think we've seen Shisui die, we saw him without eyes, but then again Izuna may have fought in a war without his eyes.
> ***Also if someone could double check me on that "haven't seen Shisui die thing" that'd be cool.


Shisui committed suicide. And Itachi helped and later "erased his existence". Shisui's long gone.



			
				Tharis said:
			
		

> Because ObitoUchiha111 was saying that there's no way it can be Kagami.


I take it that means you've read that post. So tell me, after reading that, what reasons do you still have to believe it's Kagami?


----------



## Klue (Jul 31, 2012)

Zetsu clone of Madara and Hashirama using Obito's remaining Sharingan and possibly his body. 

Nothing more, come at me.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

*BLUE = Tharris(Me)*
*RED = ObitoUchiha111*


Originally Posted by Tharris  
but Kagami's face was shown in both the anime and the manga, therefore "canon" and therefore counts under your description.

But the one shot of Kagami's face we actually got was from a range and was sloppily drawn and no one could remember his face from just that one panel.

if he were to have an important role in the story, Kishi would have given him more panel time and detail.


The first view was from an odd angle, and the second was sloppily drawn.


"Sloppily" and "odd" are both your opinion that you'r putting behind your argument.

I agree if Kagami were to be Tobi, we'd need to know more about him...
but just like with Nagato, we didn't really know anything until after their fight.
Let alone him being an Uzumaki.
I mean only showing Kagami for a split moment in time, a flashback, gives him the right to say "It's someone's face we've all seen" without making it obvious, and unfortunately it would be anticlimactic to be Kagami.

Originally Posted by Tharris  
As of right now Kagami wouldn't be that exciting of a reveal, I agree with that,
but we can't count him out either.

Yes we can. it should't even be a Tobi theory. There's nothing to suggest that he is Tobi. he's just another random fodder.

No we cannot. If you can't count Obito out then you can't count Kagami out, they have a lot of the same things going for them.
1. They're both fodder.
2. Their names Obito, Tobi, vs Kagami translating to Mirror.
3. Hair.

The one thing that Kagami even trumps Obito on is that we haven't seen him die. Not to mention being old enough for all the Tobi events to be chronologically accurate.

Fugaku has the motive, but unless their's a major twist with his death probably not him, but still slightly possible from a theory perspective.
But then again we did see him die.

??

Fugaku has no motive... what are you talking about?

Well he wanted power, thus the coup', the plot could twist to make it so that if Fugaku really didn't care about his clan/was an avenger, and tricked Itachi by dawning his Tobi mask again to wipe out his clan, nothing but theory craft I know, but possible.
Fugaku wanted power, rest is opinion and is improbable.

Obito's even less likely than Fugaku as Kishi stated in his last interview with Shounen Jump that Tobi and Madara did know each other. Which would make linking Obito to being Tobi that much more difficult. Not to mention we saw him die also.
{}
{}

You've got things mixed up. We saw Fugaku die and never saw Obito die. I love how people say Tobi can't be obito and come up with things like Fugaku.

Fugaku's personality matches up a lot better than Obito's, he was planning a coup'. Obito died helping his friends, where's the evil in those two statements. We saw Obito die, he got crushed by rocks, I've never seen anyone get crushed by rocks before and them show us a full picture of their body afterwords, cuz they were crushed by rocks, *how would you illustrate the pancake that was Obito?* and for what purpose?

Shisui is still possible, although twisting his character's personality would be hard to explain, as it would be with Obito. Then again, I don't think we've seen Shisui die, we saw him without eyes, but then again Izuna may have fought in a war without his eyes.
***Also if someone could double check me on that "haven't seen Shisui die thing" that'd be cool.

Shisui committed suicide. And Itachi helped and later "erased his existence". Shisui's long gone.

but unlike Fugaku getting stabbed, Obito being crushed and even Izuna in his coffin. We haven't really seen Shisui dead right? I mean I could be wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing him dead, only without eye. That being said he was a master of mind control, and body flicker.
Two things that kinda seem Tobi-ish.

All that being said, I respect your opinion and I enjoy debating with you.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

Klue said:


> Zetsu clone of Madara and Hashirama using Obito's remaining Sharingan and possibly his body.
> 
> Nothing more, come at me.



Entirely possible, but why give Nagato the Rinnegan?

Not a counter argument just wondering what possibilities this might lead to?
Aka the possibilities of possibilities.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

We all know my opinion is the best though !!!!


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> We all know my opinion is the best though !!!!



Yeah, but not because you're right. Just because you're you, and you're the best!


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> "Sloppily" and "odd" are both your opinion that you'r putting behind your argument.


Good point.



> I agree if Kagami were to be Tobi, we'd need to know more about him...
> but just like with Nagato, we didn't really know anything until after their fight.
> Let alone him being an Uzumaki.
> I mean only showing Kagami for a split moment in time, a flashback, gives him the right to say "It's someone's face we've all seen" without making it obvious, and unfortunately it would be anticlimactic to be Kagami.


True, but Kagami was still introduced 200 chapters after Tobi.




> No we cannot. If you can't count Obito out then you can't count Kagami out, they have a lot of the same things going for them.
> 1. They're both fodder.
> 2. Their names Obito, Tobi, vs Kagami translating to Mirror.
> 3. Hair.



1. Obito's not fodder. He wasn't as weak as people think. Especially when he awakened his sharingan. He also had/has a key role in the story. Giving Kakashi his sharingan and (possibly) being Tobi.

2. True.

3. Kagami's hair is much different than Tobi's. Hair isn't really a good argument anyway.



> The one thing that Kagami even trumps Obito on is that we haven't seen him die. Not to mention being old enough for all the Tobi events to be chronologically accurate.


We've never technically seen Obito die either. We never saw Kagami die because we only saw him once in a flashback. Alot of characters are old enough to make the events seem chronologically accurate.But most of them aren't assumed to be Tobi.




> Well he wanted power, thus the coup', the plot could twist to make it so that if Fugaku really didn't care about his clan/was an avenger, and tricked Itachi by dawning his Tobi mask again to wipe out his clan, nothing but theory craft I know, but possible.
> Fugaku wanted power, rest is opinion and is improbable.


Tobi's ideology sounds like someone who was once good but something caused him to lose hope and faith in the world. Nothing like Fugaku. Their eyeshapes are also completely different. That alone disproves the theory.





> Fugaku's personality matches up a lot better than Obito's, he was planning a coup'. Obito died helping his friends, where's the evil in those two statements. We saw Obito die, he got crushed by rocks, I've never seen anyone get crushed by rocks before and them show us a full picture of their body afterwords, cuz they were crushed by rocks, *how would you illustrate the pancake that was Obito?* and for what purpose?


See my above reply.




> but unlike Fugaku getting stabbed, Obito being crushed and even Izuna in his coffin. We haven't really seen Shisui dead right? I mean I could be wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing him dead, only without eye. That being said he was a master of mind control, and body flicker.
> Two things that kinda seem Tobi-ish.


Shisui just can't be Tobi though. Tobi had his Space-Time eye before and after Shisui gave his lost both his eyes.



> All that being said, I respect your opinion and I enjoy debating with you.


Thanks.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> Entirely possible, but why give Nagato the Rinnegan?
> 
> Not a counter argument just wondering what possibilities this might lead to?
> Aka the possibilities of possibilities.



Because Nagato was an Uzumaki, and thus had a lot of chakra/vitality. 

Tobi, being a clone/experiment, probably has a weaker body than the original Madara, plus I doubt he would want to take out his right eye (that allows him to teleport/warp/go intangible) in order to have the Rinnegan in both eyes. Plus Tobi might not have had enough chakra to revive Madara himself. 

Madara was clearly expecting Nagato to Rinne Tensei him if you reread the chapter when he was first revived.


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Because Nagato was an Uzumaki, and thus had a lot of chakra/vitality.
> 
> Tobi, being a clone/experiment, probably has a weaker body than the original Madara, plus I doubt he would want to take out his right eye (that allows him to teleport/warp/go intangible) in order to have the Rinnegan in both eyes. Plus Tobi might not have had enough chakra to revive Madara himself.
> 
> Madara was clearly expecting Nagato to Rinne Tensei him if you reread the chapter when he was first revived.




Nice, that'd be a cool way to make sense of that.
It can't be argued that Tobi definately has goo like Zetsu, which we all know is like Hashirama, and it also can't be argued that Tobi has the Uchiha's eye, Sharingan.

No matter what
this point does stand that no matter who Tobi is
Tobi = Senju + Uchiha
Or at least he's/someone's made him that way.

*If
Maybe because Tobi wasn't a clone he wasn't entirely strong enough at that point to use the Rinnegan, who knows maybe even right now he's not strong enough to use both of them and that's why he still has one sharingan.
Some people may argue no, because Sharingan is needed for the mooneye plan, but what I don't understand is can't a Rinnegan do everything a Sharingan can, isn't it an evolved form of the Sharingan.

Or technically the Sharingan is a de-evolved form of the Rinnegan.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 31, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Oh. I didn't know ignoring information meant "refuting" it.
> Apparently you are willing to ignore the definition of canon, i.e., that which cannot be refuted or contradicted. Your claims are nothing but conjecture. So are mine, but I don't base them on ostensible information or so-called facts and run around like a headless chicken, announcing that I've made irrefutable arguments.
> 
> The barest essentials of elementary reasoning would tell you to avoid thinking in absolutes and making definite conclusions based on mere possibilities.
> ...



would you look at that... more diplomacy 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No one would recognize Kagami.



something as trivial as that is not an obstacle



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If Kagami were to have more story importance, such as being Tobi, he would have been brought up more.



Nagato wasnt brought up until right before his death 



Raventhal said:


> Lol, Kagami has no plot.



Nagato didnt have any plot before he was revealed



copydog123 said:


> Think about it.
> 
> *Similar names* -
> We have Ino/Inoichi, Shikaku/Shikamaru, Minato/Naruto, Hiashi/Hanabi, Hizashi/Neji (ok not that similar )....
> ...



i agree 

i think Tobi is Kagami, who is also Obito's father



Moon Fang said:


> He can recognise chakra. Once Madara was summoned he knew straight away who it was.



i agree... plothole no.4

*Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn?t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara?s generation.


----------



## NW (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> would you look at that... more diplomacy


He is debating rationally, unlike you. You call any intellectual argument against you "diplomacy" and ignore it. By your logic, we should all just debate completely irrationally and go wild.





> something as trivial as that is not an obstacle


it is if Kishi is aiming for a climactic/shocking reveal, which he obviously is.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jacamo (Jul 31, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> it is if Kishi is aiming for a climactic/shocking reveal, which he obviously is.



Kishi could easily come up with a way for Tobi to be Kagami while also making the reveal climactic/shocking.... its not that hard


----------



## Tharris (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kishi could easily come up with a way for Tobi to be Kagami while also making the reveal climactic/shocking.... its not that hard



I do like the Kagami being Obito's father theory.

In a way it gives Obito's backstory to Kagami, making him more valid,
but still only a theory.

I can't wait to find out who he is!!


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

OKAY! Anyways, Here is the TObito Theory I have come up with, you can quote me on it for future sake. There are NO plot holes, you can try and find one, go ahead, As I have said this is merely a POSSIBILITY, a THEORY. Not 100%,Not Canon, but plausible none the less.
* means irrelevent, possible, but doesn't MATTER whether it happened or not.

I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.

A: EMS Madara fights Hashirama at the VOTE, Hashirama wrestles the kyuubi away from Madara (as they both can control bijus) and defeats Madara. Madara managed to steal some flesh from Hashirama during this fight and people believed him to die somehow. Madara in reality LIVES.
You...

B: Sometime later Madara grafts aspects of Hashirama's flesh to his chest to gain mokuton. Madara is NOT in his prime anymore at this point. He creates that Hashirama clone that we have seen underground, somehow obtains gedou mazou, and zetsu comes into existence. All experiments done by Madara.
You...

*: Madara spends some time in the hidden mist and starts the bloody mist. Its possible bloody mist began without the Uchiha presence and was simply continued by Tobi.*

C: Madara awakens the rinnegan sometime during the 2nd Ninja war, he is old at this point. 
Tobi may have said "I Gave him the Rinnegan" but he was under the guise of Madara. He also said "I fought Hashirama" and "People believe I died"
When he says Shortly before his death doesn't give an exact time, when you are old, you perceive a lot of time as small just as when you're young you perceive a little time as long. Its all about perception,Kishi was careful not to give any exact numbers so we can't be precise. He discovers the Uzumaki child Nagato and implants his eyes into him secretly. Uzumaki's have great chakra and the Rinnegan has the ability to make a regular civilian kill trained chuunin/jounin ninjas so he knew it would be safe. 
You...

Keep in mind Kabuto resurrected Madara so that he would have all the benefits of his Old age, (Rinnegan, Hashirama Grafting), along with the physicality of his Prime, He's a 'special' edo.

*Implants some regular sharingans or simply goes blind for the remainder of his life. Not impossible Izuna demonstrated to live for some time without eyes. Maybe he lived as a sensor? He seems aptly able to locate and hunt the Nine Tails Jinchuuriki despite being far away from him at the moment.*

D: 3rd Ninja war takes place. Obito, Kakashi, and Rin are stuck in the rockslide. Obito has demonstrated himself to be a very capable ninja who although took a long time to awaken his 2 tomoe sharingan, was still able to advance to chuunin rank without it. When awoken demonstrated to be on the same level as the jounin Kakashi. Student of the 4th Hokage and an Uchiha, look at the capabilities Kakashi's eye has achieved, the feats, and the fame he got from it, don't underestimate his potential. Obito donates his left eye to Kakashi. As the rockslide gives in, we never actually see him die. A few possibilities, either Madara could have saved Obito himself, Madara could have had Zetsu save him being 'the land itself', or Obito could have gone through a catalytic freak incident that caused him to s/t teleport to an unkown area.

E: Obito, due to the traumatic incident of almost dying, having much of his body DAMAGED beyond CONVENTIONAL repair, and learning Rin's fate was death, possibly feeling abandoned, and hating war, his will of hatred grew as he began like Naruto and became what he is now as tobi, Its possible for such a change as In Itachi's words. Personality change is possible.
You...
You...
You...
And he forgot wanting this new world shouldering everything on himself with the Eien Mugen Tsukuyomi.

F: Madara takes Obito under his wing for 2 years until the Kyuubi attack. His body is repaired by Zetsu Goo. We know its at least partially composed of Zetsu body parts considering how he replaces damages, how it comes from a plant, and his first introduction as tobi shows his body isn't normal and is damaged. During which time. With Zetsu and his own Sharingan, he can teach Obito that only Madara knows so that people would be able to believe him with the guise. Obito will have the memories as if he himself was watching everything play out, We already know Zetsu has this capability as he 'records' things such as the itachi sasuke fight. 
Obito also awakens MS which provides him with the Intangibilitys+Teleportation S/T jutsu. They ARE related together since he can only do ONE while the other isn't ACTIVE. The Eye relates to Kakashi's Kamui MS and we have never seen a close up of Tobi's eye when he uses the jutsu's on top of the fact that MS only has to be active for split seconds as we know from Itachi's first appearance. 
Once mastering his MS and being trained by a Powerful character like Madara, he can fight very powerfully. On top of learning how to tame the kyuubi from the previous owner makes complete sense. The abilty of the MS is to control the kyuubi as the Databook and Manga states countless times. Madara dies at some point during this time and expects Tobi to spur Nagato to resurrect him when he grows up and masters his eyes.

G: Kyuubi attack takes place. tobi tames kyuubi, fights Minato his old teacher, loses, and runs away. Minato guesses Madara because he is the only unaccounted Uchiha he can think of with such power and knowledge, but dismisses because he is 'long dead', which tobi says 'i wouldn't be so sure of that' because he didn't die a long time ago, but in reality very recently. And Minato never guesses Obito because Minato was pretty close to the incident when he 'died' so believed him accounted for.

H: Tobi goes on to the Hidden Mist village and controls Yagura. The bloody mist is already still taking place, he keeps it going. Kisame witnesses him as an older teen and learns of his plan for a 'world without lies'. He NEVER confirms him as madara, but he does call him that to go along with it. The reason he refused to allow aoba to see the face is because its important. Aoba is about Kakashi and Gai age so he knows the face of Obito and would spoil the reveal.
You...
You...
We also know this guy is the same as the guy that Itachi talked to for the massacre going by hair and mask along with Kisame confirming when he saw his face after meeting up again with Itachi's death.
You...
You...

I: As some of the links above point to, Itachi then talks to Tobi who he believes is Madara because of the knowledge he possesses which he learned from Madara himself. They massacre the Uchiha clan as the deal dictates.

J: Now we have the current time slot with Tobi and Madara both 'around'.




jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.



Congratulations, one of the most retarded statements in the ENTIRE thread.
Kyuubi sees EVERYTHING its host sees. This is been confirmed MULTIPLE times. 
Kyuubi literally stated out right "I HAVE WATCHED YOU GROW UP AND PROVE STUFF THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS"
It saw Naruto and Sasuke fight when they were kids in the academy. It sees Naruto fighting the chakra rods out of the 4 tails. It sees EVERYTHING. So while it was in Kushina it could have seen her HUSBANDS APPRENTICES. It does NOT have to be from Madara's and Hashiramas time to be Tobi.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 31, 2012)

Tharris said:


> I can't wait to find out who he is!!



In a few weeks we will.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> would you look at that... more diplomacy


And? What of it?


> Nagato didnt have any plot before he was revealed


Nagato, as the AL, was introduced as a mysterious silhouette lording over Akatsuki. Because we knew that he led the Akatsuki, we had reason to believe he would someday reveal himself and play a major role.

Kagami, on the other hand, was nothing more than an Uchiha who was once teamed with Danzo. The only reason we believe he could become significant is that he was an Uchiha.

Your comparison is quite inappropriate.


> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.


Read the posts above yours. Kurama possibly knows who Tobi is, but it's also possible that he only recognized his doujutsu.

Also, when was it ever stated that the outside world is imperceivable to Kurama when he is sealed?


----------



## son_michael (Jul 31, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> OKAY! Anyways, Here is the TObito Theory I have come up with, you can quote me on it for future sake. There are NO plot holes, you can try and find one, go ahead, As I have said this is merely a POSSIBILITY, a THEORY. Not 100%,Not Canon, but plausible none the less.
> * means irrelevent, possible, but doesn't MATTER whether it happened or not.
> 
> I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.
> ...




Pretty solid possibility of what could have happened if obito is tobi. Only thing though, you need to fix part G because you obviously meant to say tobi instead of madara.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 31, 2012)

fixed.

I'll make another long post later tonight or tomorrow detailing why ALL other identity's have giant flaws like the Izuna, Madara clone, Kagami, and Fugaku theories and thus are LESS likely, but not impossible.
But you know, as Jacamo says, each of them would have 'plot holes', except these would be real plot holes, but no big deal-o-o-o-o
 (Keep in mind I used to be a big proponent of each of them until certain information has shown up in the last year)


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

Iaccidentally and unintentionally wrote it in a private messege so might as well copy pasted it here:
Trust me there's a lot more to it as well as more possibilities for obito being tobi, I just decided to type it all in one go because I'm sick of people bringing up the same points over and over again that ARENT PLOT HOLES. They don't see there are plenty of possibilities.

I used to have one for Izuna as well as Kagami as well as Fugaku and Madara clone with own brain. But they have slowly but surely been losing credibilty with manga evidence showing up and supporting connectin with kakashi and negating their existence.

Itachi's flashback discounts Fugaku since Fugaku had true last words, a sword through back, met the masked man, and isn't an idiot to believe he killed someone who he killed. on top of that he erased shisui's existence.

Izuna gets negated by Madara noting all he left were his eyes and power. Although resurrection is possible in this world, it does not seem the case when Madara who has told the truth countless times says that ALL he left were his eyes. That wouldn't be the case if he was still alive because he would have had a whole lifetime to leave behind more things since he would still be alive at tobi.

Kagami is just too empty. Along with Danzo having been on his team he would have not made the stupidity of mixing up someone familiar with tobi the masked man. keep in mind tobi's knowledge is extensive that people actually believed him to be madara. even onoki did. Danzo would have noticed if his team mate went crazy like that. Unless kishi wants to type a whole new books worth citing kagami info would have to be done. its possible, but slim. Setsuna is almost as likely. Danzo is insightful enough to know it wasn't Kagami considering his root connections.

Madara clone..........nah. It's been done to gods to no end. Its already very likely that Zetsu himself is half clone of madara (black) and half clone of Hashirama (white). Along with the fact we have Hashirama clone this, hashirama clone that. To have another big clone as the big bad would be poor writing development. on top of that tobi speaks like he has a personal grudge. sweating against naruto, going through the moons eye plan. he has to have had some personal experience for this to be wanted.


----------



## Good Boy (Aug 1, 2012)

Tobi is Minato

I've deduced this because Tobi is clearly insane from acting weirdly goofy around Zetsu when Zetsu clearly knows who Tobi was during his introduction.

He is insane enough to fight himself.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 1, 2012)

Hey jacamo, For the claim "Madara is the one who gave rinnegan to nagato".

Madara is not stupid enough to give his eye to other person unlike his brother. (as tobi said)
This means tobi must have given it to nagato after madara's death. Edo tensei also confirms it. Madara died with his rinnegan eye.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Hey jacamo, For the claim "Madara is the one who gave rinnegan to nagato".
> 
> Madara is not stupid enough to give his eye to other person unlike his brother. (as tobi said)
> This means tobi must have given it to nagato after madara's death. Edo tensei also confirms it. Madara died with his rinnegan eye.



wrong, wrong, and wrong. did i mention wrong?

A: Madara isn't stupid, he put his eyes in someone who could HANDLE them, "keep them safe" in a way, so he can be resurrected someday.

B: How is it this means Tobi must have done it.........it doesn't mean anything.

C: Edo confirms nothing, Madara didn't die when he was that young too. Did you not read my post? Kabuto said it himself, he resurrected Madara as a 'special' edo tensei, will all the benefits and medications he could possibly have including youth and his eyes.

D: is it possible madara died with his rinnegan and tobi took them out and put them in nagato? or that they somehow induced nagato to grow his own pair of rinnegan? yes, but again, those are other possibilities. nothing confirms shit.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't even think madara had rinnegan before he died. Didn't kabuto give madara Hashirama's dna? If so then there is no way madara had the rinnegan because you need both dna to awaken rinnegan.

But if madara did somehow steal the dna before he died then its possible he had rinnegan, do we have any evidence to suggest he did?

if maadara didn't get rinnegan before he died then that means he didn't give it to nagato. Then again, madara was expecting nagato to ressurect him so that means he knew about the rinnegan which probably means he did have it before he died


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 1, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> wrong, wrong, and wrong. did i mention wrong?
> 
> A: Madara isn't stupid, he put his eyes in someone who could HANDLE them, "keep them safe" in a way, so he can be resurrected someday.
> 
> ...



so you mean that Madara was living as a blind man after he gave nagato the rinnegan? alright 

```
I awakened rinnegan sortly before my death
```
Deos this mean madara didn't give it to nagato?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I don't even think madara had rinnegan before he died. Didn't kabuto give madara Hashirama's dna? If so then there is no way madara had the rinnegan because you need both dna to awaken rinnegan.
> 
> But if madara did somehow steal the dna before he died then its possible he had rinnegan, do we have any evidence to suggest he did?
> 
> if maadara didn't get rinnegan before he died then that means he didn't give it to nagato. Then again, madara was expecting nagato to ressurect him so that means he knew about the rinnegan which probably means he did have it before he died



No, Madara said himself he had awoken the rinnegan. And Madara was familiar with being capable of using mokuton and wasn't surprised. What he was surprised about was that he had both despite having his youth appearance. 
Its been heavily implied, but not confirmed, that to awaken the rinnegan one needs both the senju (hashirama) dna and the ems. And then to go through some other unknown change I'm sure we will witness eventually.
Point is Madara had both already in life, albeit late in his lef old age.



Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> so you mean that Madara was living as a blind man after he gave nagato the rinnegan? alright
> 
> ```
> I awakened rinnegan sortly before my death
> ...



A: Izuna did............not impossible. Especially for someone who has been shown to be so powerful. That, or as I said, he replaced his eyes with regular sharingans for the remainder of his old life. He planned for the future, to be resurrected. the present meant very little to him.

B: No, he COULD have awoken rinnegan, had it for a bit, given them to nagato, and moved on with next part of his plan, training an apprentice uchiha.

Possibilities man, If it can be explained one way, it can be explained another way by Kishi which makes it notimpossible


----------



## Tharris (Aug 1, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> In a few weeks we will.



It would be so awesome if it's chapter 600...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 1, 2012)

Tharris said:


> I do like the Kagami being Obito's father theory.
> 
> In a way it gives Obito's backstory to Kagami, making him more valid,
> but still only a theory.
> ...



its the only way i think Kishi can incorporate Obito and "Kakashi's year" into the story... father-son bond kind of theme, like with Kakashi and his dad



TH4N4T0S said:


> Nagato, as the AL, was introduced as a mysterious silhouette lording over Akatsuki. Because we knew that he led the Akatsuki, we had reason to believe he would someday reveal himself and play a major role.
> 
> Kagami, on the other hand, was nothing more than an Uchiha who was once teamed with Danzo. The only reason we believe he could become significant is that he was an Uchiha.
> 
> Your comparison is quite inappropriate.



its actually very appropriate... if Tobi is Kagami then the reveal would have followed the exact same pattern as the Nagato reveal

and for all we know, Kagami could have contributed to Team Tobirama being surrounded by the Kinkaku Force, you cant rule out that possibility... it was Kagami who suggested that a decoy was needed, after all



> Read the posts above yours. Kurama possibly knows who Tobi is, but it's also possible that he only recognized his doujutsu.
> 
> Also, when was it ever stated that the outside world is imperceivable to Kurama when he is sealed?



by saying "YOU!" the Kyuubi recognised Tobi and his chakra... so if Obito was just a kid how could he have done anything notable for the Kyuubi to recognise him in the first place? 

even if the Kyuubi saw Obito through Kushina, it would have been impossible for the Kyuubi to recognise his dojutsu because Obito hadnt even awakened his Sharingan before the Iwa mission 



Mistshadow said:


> Kagami is just too empty. Along with Danzo having been on his team he would have not made the stupidity of mixing up someone familiar with tobi the masked man. keep in mind tobi's knowledge is extensive that people actually believed him to be madara. even onoki did. Danzo would have noticed if his team mate went crazy like that. Unless kishi wants to type a whole new books worth citing kagami info would have to be done. its possible, but slim. Setsuna is almost as likely. Danzo is insightful enough to know it wasn't Kagami considering his root connections.



good insight but its still not a plothole


----------



## Tharris (Aug 1, 2012)

Please let us all remember that there is no plot-holes against this Tobi-candidate


I know who I'm putting my money on.

I mean think about it... Tobi's name means Falcon or something like that...

Falcon aka Condor the Ninja Ostrich.

It's all so clear now.

XD

Wait wait... He's not Canon, money's back on Tenten.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 1, 2012)

^i accept responsibility


----------



## Tharris (Aug 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ^i accept responsibility



As you should XD


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> its actually very appropriate... if Tobi is Kagami then the reveal would have followed the exact same pattern as the Nagato reveal


Very appropriate? No. To be more precise, not yet. Since we knew of no other character who had the Rinnegan except Rikudou Sennin, who was but an ancient legend, we could infer almost immediately after Nagato's introduction that he had some kind of plot and was important to the story. 

The same implication currently doesn't apply to Kagami, although he was introduced long ago. His story, if any, hasn't even been introduced yet, and there are alternative candidates for Tobi's identity.

The comparison, at least at present, holds no weight.


> and for all we know, Kagami could have contributed to Team Tobirama being surrounded by the Kinkaku Force, you cant rule out that possibility... it was Kagami who suggested that a decoy was needed, after all


Sure, but you can't rule out the possibilities attached to the Tobito theory either. 

If the Tobito theory has holes, the Kagami theory is in itself an enormous sink hole -- not impossible to fill, but relatively difficult to fill.


> by saying "YOU!" the Kyuubi recognised Tobi and his chakra...


To be fair, it was ambiguous. Kurama reacted to Sasuke in a similar fashion, but only recognized him as someone whose chakra was similar to Madara's. It's also possible that he was simply agitated or acerbated that a jutsu similar to Madara's was again being cast on him.

Possibility. It's a good word.


> even if the Kyuubi saw Obito through Kushina, it would have been impossible for the Kyuubi to recognise his dojutsu because Obito hadnt even awakened his Sharingan before the Iwa mission


I'm not saying he could have recognized Obito's jutsu. I'm saying he could have recognized Sharingan genjutsu -- that Tobi's genjutsu was similar to Madara's.


----------



## naster (Aug 1, 2012)

This is my vote:


Tobi is, in fact, no one _specifically_.

What do I mean by this? Well, I think Tobi uses the bodies of dead ninja to modify his own body (I'm not talking about just doujutsu here). I also do not think Zetsu is actually eating dead ninja/akatsuki. I think Zetsu is actually preparing them for Tobi somehow. Furthermore, I believe it is very possible that Tobi managed to absorb a part of Madara and Obito at some point. So, in a sense, Tobi IS Madara and Obito, but he is also neither of them at the same time.

That's just my crack-pot theory though...


----------



## Brainsucker (Aug 1, 2012)

What if Tobi is actually the second hokage? Tobirama Senju? But... well, forget it


----------



## NinjaWannabe (Aug 1, 2012)

*Otibo/Tobi - my opinion*

People have already said something close to this in many ways with many little differences but after this weeks chapter I really wanted to wade in!

It's blatantly Obito! Sorry to all those who are going 'NO please don't let it be Obito', but really there is no other way that the characters would be connected tightly enough, as is always the case in Naruto. That aside the abilities have really laid it down.  

The left and right sharingan of an individual user do similar but different things and that ability is linked to the sharingan user who originally awakened the sharingan. 

OK, of course there are outside shouts for it being Shisui, Kagami, Danzo, or some other random but that wouldn't be the Naruto story we know and love. None of those characters are connected enough to any of the main characters or their history. Connected yes, but enough? No. If it were anyone else other than Obito it would not have the symmetry that the Naruto story is famous for. 

The Second Hokage & the 3rd Hokage with Danzou. 
The 3rd Hokage & Jiraiya with Orochimaru. 
The 4th Hokage & Kakashi (6th Hokage) with Obito. 
Kakashi (6th Hokage) & Naruto with Sasuke. There are so many other bits of symmetry in the story that back up these character relationships that if this wasn't it it wouldn't make sense.

Also the things that Tobi says to Kakashi really do hint to the shared past of Kakashi and Obito

In the manga all the flashback story lines are very important and relevant to the overall story in a hugely significant way, not just to the characters and their development. the Kakashi Gaiden arc has so far only been significant to the development of Kakashi's character (and some 4th ownage). If Tobi is Obito it would make this flashback not just character significant, but story significant as well. 

Timeline wise I don't see any problems except one. Tobi says that he gave Nagato his rinnegan. At this point Jiraiya hadn't even trained the 4th Hokage, so that would seem difficult. There would seem to be a generations gap at least between the time Nagato got his rinnegan (when Jiraiya was young!) and when Obito get separated from Kakashi and therefore Konoha and everyone's knowledge. Of course some Madara story combination with Obito, post crushing, could solve all of these things and we don't yet know exactly when the real Madara died. All we know is that he definitely did die at some point. Also we have had plenty of hints that Tobi and Madara are connected we just don't know how, just that they are not the same person. 

Also when Tobi says that he gave Nagato his eyes he is pretending to be Madara. At that time Kabuto hadn't used Edo Tensei and nobody knew he wasn't actually Madara. It's possible he says he gave Nagato his eyes as a ruse to keep up the illusion that he was Madara. 

If Madara and Obito did somehow cross paths after Obito's apparent death in Kakashi Gaiden, then it is possible for Obito to have knowledge of what Madara did previously from Madara himself. Madara probably had other intentions (he has a lot of rage and likes to fight) whereas Obito would want to stop war and create peace no matter what considering what happened to him in the past due to war. Hence his plan Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto to control the world without conflict.  

It has to either be Obito, or half Obito half Zetsu, or some hybrid Obito/Zetsu, or Obito ressurected by Madara's rinnegan before Madara died, or Obito and .... you get the picture. Somehow it's Obito. 

This is my opinion. Again, I know others have had very similar ones. I just wanted to lay it out my way.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

In addition from another thread I saw someone post today. To erase some more of that supposed plot holes some of you believe in error.

Another possibility is that time flows different in that pocket dimension Tobi teleports through. So as Obito was about to die, his MS spontaneously awoken with his new friendship with Kakashi or about to die. And he teleported to the dimension and couldn't get out. Madara may have found his way through it, and trained him for a LONG time there thus supplanting that '2 years got super powerful' garbage and 'waited a long time'.


----------



## Evolution (Aug 1, 2012)

Tobi is Madara's son. You have to admit that it is possible.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 1, 2012)

NinjaWannabe said:


> The Second Hokage & the 3rd Hokage with Danzou.
> The 3rd Hokage & Jiraiya with Orochimaru.
> The 4th Hokage & Kakashi (6th Hokage) with Obito.
> Kakashi (6th Hokage) & Naruto with Sasuke. There are so many other bits of symmetry in the story that back up these character relationships that if this wasn't it it wouldn't make sense.



Motherofgod

This newbie has a valid comparison.


----------



## NinjaWannabe (Aug 1, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Motherofgod
> 
> This newbie has a valid comparison.


Thanks for the compliment to my post. While I don't consider myself a newbie, since I've been reading Naruto for the best part of 10 years. Still I suppose I'm a newbie here so I have to take it!



Mistshadow said:


> In addition from another thread I saw someone post today. To erase some more of that supposed plot holes some of you believe in error.
> 
> Another possibility is that time flows different in that pocket dimension Tobi teleports through. So as Obito was about to die, his MS spontaneously awoken with his new friendship with Kakashi or about to die. And he teleported to the dimension and couldn't get out. Madara may have found his way through it, and trained him for a LONG time there thus supplanting that '2 years got super powerful' garbage and 'waited a long time'.


Yeah, I like the idea of the other dimension being at a different rate of time flow. Everything would be easily explained (and awesome) if that were the case. 

Really if Tobi isn't some close link to Obito somehow I'll be sick!


----------



## Kid (Aug 1, 2012)

But if you look very closely af his part of the broken mask..You will
see a little bit of Ramen..

There are just to many things pointing at Tobi = Teuchi


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 1, 2012)

I think one of the discrepances between pro Tobito and contra Tobito is because if you look at the manga with an in-universe or an out-of-universe perspective. From an in-universe perspective Tobito can work and would have at least follow some patterns established earlier including the emotinal impact and shock while from out-of-universe perspective it is neither very creative nor very impressive effectivly turning him into a bait for PnJ and TnJ.

If tobi is revealed to be obito it requires retcon within retcons and makes tobi a bigger liar than aizen while the emotional impact on the heroes may be would exist and may leave some marks(or not).

The reaction of us readers on the other side would range from "OMG my crack theory from 200 chapters ago when it was more likely is true! Yay" to " meh. Who is that?" to "Kishi never ceases to disappoint me!" and some even may say "Never had a easier way to win a bet". 
While i would say " Okay what im going to do in my spare time instead now."


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 1, 2012)

NinjaWannabe said:


> The Second Hokage & the 3rd Hokage with Danzou.
> The 3rd Hokage & Jiraiya with Orochimaru.
> The 4th Hokage & Kakashi (6th Hokage) with Obito.
> Kakashi (6th Hokage) & Naruto with Sasuke. There are so many other bits of symmetry in the story that back up these character relationships that if this wasn't it it wouldn't make sense.



Sorry bud, but Danzou and the 3rd hokage were only on the same team during the 1st shinobi war. The Second Hokage only led Hiruzen Sarutobi(3rd), Koharu Utatane and Homura Mitokado. Danzo and Hiruzen were only rivals that's about it.


----------



## NinjaWannabe (Aug 1, 2012)

Osaeri said:


> Sorry bud, but Danzou and the 3rd hokage were only on the same team during the 1st shinobi war. The Second Hokage only led Hiruzen Sarutobi(3rd), Koharu Utatane and Homura Mitokado. Danzo and Hiruzen were only rivals that's about it.



Yeah dude they were on the same team with the same sensei. That's the point... Sigh. The sensei from these teams always teaches one student who will become Hokage, one who will train a Hokage and one who will be sketchy and do 'bad' things. These traits can be combined in the case of the 3rd Hokage who became a Hokage and taught a Hokage (5th), or separate. As in the 3rd trained, Sunade who became the 5th and Jiraiya who go on to train the 4th.

The point is that they are rivals from the same team. Not the extent of the rivalry or when it happened. Dazou had a seriously questionable code of ethics and morales that led him to do fairly unsavoury things. Just like the rest. Admittedly he didn't go completely dark a la Orochimaru or Sasuke, but the comparison is still valid. The symmetry is there between the characters deliberately. Of course there are subtle differences between the situations and characters, but the comparison is VALID.

Yes I did shout that last part at the screen... big sigh!


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kishi could easily come up with a way for Tobi to be Kagami while also making the reveal climactic/shocking.... its not that hard


No. It's impossible. We wouldn't know who Kagami is. We wouldn't recognize him. 



jacamo said:


> by saying "YOU!" the Kyuubi recognised Tobi and his chakra... so if Obito was just a kid how could he have done anything notable for the Kyuubi to recognise him in the first place?


He might have recognized him. it doesn't mean he recognized him as someone of great power or abilities. He just might have recognized him.



> even if the Kyuubi saw Obito through Kushina, it would have been impossible for the Kyuubi to recognise his dojutsu because Obito hadnt even awakened his Sharingan before the Iwa mission


it wasn't Obito's doujutsu he recognized. It was more likely that he recognized the ability to summon and control him.





> good insight but its still not a plothole


Going by the logic you use to identify plotholes, then yes, that should count was a plothole in your book. Especially considering that alot of your "plotholes" are based on nothing but assumptions.



Mistshadow said:


> OKAY! Anyways, Here is the TObito Theory I have come up with, you can quote me on it for future sake. There are NO plot holes, you can try and find one, go ahead, As I have said this is merely a POSSIBILITY, a THEORY. Not 100%,Not Canon, but plausible none the less.
> * means irrelevent, possible, but doesn't MATTER whether it happened or not.


Nice post. I'd really like to see how people refute this one. Looks like they can't use that whole "it has too many plotholes" argument anymore.



Good Boy said:


> Tobi is Minato
> 
> I've deduced this because Tobi is clearly insane from acting weirdly goofy around Zetsu when Zetsu clearly knows who Tobi was during his introduction.
> 
> He is insane enough to fight himself.






NinjaWannabe said:


> People have already said something close to this in many ways with many little differences but after this weeks chapter I really wanted to wade in!
> 
> It's blatantly Obito! Sorry to all those who are going 'NO please don't let it be Obito', but really there is no other way that the characters would be connected tightly enough, as is always the case in Naruto. That aside the abilities have really laid it down.
> 
> ...


Great post. +rep

This is one of the many reasons I support Tobi being Obito. No other Tobi identity really fits with the story and fills all of Kishi's themes.

It's a shame people don't see this.



Mistshadow said:


> In addition from another thread I saw someone post today. To erase some more of that supposed plot holes some of you believe in error.
> 
> Another possibility is that time flows different in that pocket dimension Tobi teleports through. So as Obito was about to die, his MS spontaneously awoken with his new friendship with Kakashi or about to die. And he teleported to the dimension and couldn't get out. Madara may have found his way through it, and trained him for a LONG time there thus supplanting that '2 years got super powerful' garbage and 'waited a long time'.


An interesting concept...



NinjaWannabe said:


> Of course there are subtle differences between the situations and characters, but the comparison is VALID.
> 
> Yes I did shout that last part at the screen... big sigh!


----------



## SharinganRinnegan (Aug 1, 2012)

*People keep ignoring the Fact that......*

Tobi has never shown MS. 
tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy

this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.

and if it is not some hax MS jutsu, then how tf is it related to kakashi's kamui? this should end all tobi=obito talk. everyone ignores this, and conviently compares kamui with S/T. if u ask me, its advanced, infinite izanagi but thats a different convo

if tobi was using MS, u realize he uses it 24/7. that is TOO HAX. kishi wouldnt allow that. u can CLAIM "*oh nooo, hes different. he can spam MS because hes made of hashirama cells, he can last forever and ever and spam MS as much as he wants*" but then i will bring up kyuubi fight, where he was not only outclassed, couldnt regenerate, and obviously didnt have confidence in his power to get kyuubi back or keep fighting. 

it makes more sense that he is Izuna, and izuna despises the MS. its the thing that made his brother go crazy, the reason he sticks to uchiha non-MS jutsus including izanagi, *OR* madara took his MS eyes lol.

im just tired of these convenient ass Tobito theories without acknowledging the noMS. not to mention his eye was fucking smashed. not to mention Tobi has thousands of eyes, yet, somehow, he magically fell in love with obito's smashed one.

gtfoh
for kakashi and tobi to have the same eye, kishi would have to do a huger asspull than this


*Spoiler*: __ 



http://www.worldstaruncut.com/uncut/49007


----------



## daschysta (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


False, it's the same jutsu as Kamui, or at least the sister jutsu, that much is obvious. Have you not thought that the reason Kishi hasn't shown Tobi's MS is that it looks the same as Kakashi's and would spoil his identity irrefutably?


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


Tobi also has Shodai cells as he explained vs Konan

He can most likely spam MS Kamui without much drawback

The reason we never saw a close-up of Tobi's eye when sucking thinks in is because Kishi would have to reveal the MS form. Giving away the clue


----------



## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


I don't think you realize that if Kishomoto were to show Tobi's MS eye, he'd be giving his identity away.

Got it?


----------



## NO (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> I don't think you realize that if Kishomoto were to show Tobi's MS eye, he'd be giving his identity away.
> 
> Got it?


I'm a big Tobito fan but I will throw this in for their defense. Tobi could be using just his eye. But the fact that his MS has been hidden probably means there is a connection.


----------



## SharinganRinnegan (Aug 1, 2012)

SMH i cant believe u all are helping this asspull. doesnt matter if he has shodai cells like i said, that doesnt fucking allow him to spam MS 24/7. he wouldn't have retreated from minato if thats the case

and u know how many times tobi warped and it was a closeup on his sharingan? and what about when he phases?? for some reason we cant see his MS? kakashi or sasuke would have been observed that shit

if these shodai cells were THAT CONVENIENT oro would have been took over the world


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Aug 1, 2012)

daschysta said:


> False, it's the same jutsu as Kamui, or at least the sister jutsu, that much is obvious. Have you not thought that the reason Kishi hasn't shown Tobi's MS is that it looks the same as Kakashi's and would spoil his identity irrefutably?



If non-Uchiha can effectively use their forbidden Doujutsu techniques and even advance it to the fourth stage, then what makes you think an elite Uchiha who has injected Obito's other eye can't perform superior feats? Keep in mind Tobi had a large quantity of Sharingans at his hideout. Obvious foreshadowing if I do say so...


----------



## SharinganRinnegan (Aug 1, 2012)

Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> If non-Uchiha can effectively use their forbidden Doujutsu techniques and even advance it to the fourth stage, then what makes you think an elite Uchiha who has injected Obito's other eye can't perform superior feats? Keep in mind Tobi had a large quantity of Sharingans at his hideout. Obvious foreshadowing if I do say so...



so now MS jutsus can be use from random base sharingans?? OMG i cant take anymore of this fan fiction

all im saying is, tobi's S/T tech is not MS and therefore he is not related to kakashi's eye

if so, they would have been mentioned they have the same jutsu, but they ae fundamentally different, either that or the next couple chapters they will. but only thing that was said so far is that they use the same dimension


----------



## Hexa (Aug 1, 2012)

Hm, points against each.

Izuna: we saw him in a coffin, dead.  Additionally, Madara speaks of his brother during his fight with the Kage: Madara: Hashirama... I don't know what it is that you left behind... But their strength still falls short of yours! If you wanted your underlings to inherit something you should have taught them a way to revive you like I have been. The only thing you left after you died was the life force of your cells within me.

Madara: The only thing my brother left after he died was the power in my eyes.​Given that Madara knows Tobi, it's an odd statement to make if Tobi is Izuna.

Obito: already covered

Shisui:  his suicide seemed quite real based on Itachi's flashback, and he doesn't seem like he'd be old enough to pull off the events during Naruto's birth.

Kagami: There's little to no significance attached to the character.  Tobi might as well just be a new character.  There's not so much against this one except maybe small differences in hair and appearance.

Setsuna: Even less significant than Kagami, and the hair doesn't match.

Madara clone: Recent supplementary material from the editors seems to go against it.  A promotional cutout for the Naruto movie had Madara's height at 179cm (as opposed to Tobi's 175ish).  Additionally, one of the images in the  "Future of Naruto" special in Jump had the follow caption (translation from Takl): (tobis) fierce fight against a former akatsuki, konan!
konans clever plan with 600billion explosive tags blindsided tobi and damaged the mask. thats when he was unmasked a bit. with the face different from madaras, what he really is!?"​It's an editor that writes the captions, but said editor is pretty confident Madara and Tobi have different faces.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


Tobi has MS at the very least. The design isn't shown because they're alike Kakashi's, there goes that plot tweeeest. Why would Tobi go around with Sharingan base eyes when he has (at least, we don't know what that wall contains) Sasuke's MS eyes at his disposal? Is he stupid, purposely using weaker stage eyes? There is no reason why someone would choose base over MS, except for the blindness issue... which is countered by switching eyes. Tobi has tons of eyes to do that, so it's obvious blindness wouldn't be his concern.

An argument can be made that Tobi has EMS as well. 1. Tobi isn't blind. 2. Tobi has Sasuke's MS eyes, which would be EMS eyes if he tansplanted them to himself. Still, I won't back this one 100% because Tobi might think his eye's intangibility powers are much more practical than whatever Sasuke's eye powers are.

Are we sure his eyes were focused when he used intangibility? I don't recall any, all seemed to be hidden, but I don't doubt this is true. I'd just like some panels to go with it though.


----------



## eepdoodle (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


If Tobi showed his MS design, it would prove definitively he is or isn’t Obito. Kishi wants it to remain a mystery what his identity is. Simple.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Hexa said:


> Hm, points against each.
> 
> Izuna: we saw him in a coffin, dead.  Additionally, Madara speaks of his brother during his fight with the Kage: Madara: Hashirama... I don't know what it is that you left behind... But their strength still falls short of yours! If you wanted your underlings to inherit something you should have taught them a way to revive you like I have been. The only thing you left after you died was the life force of your cells within me.
> 
> Madara: The only thing my brother left after he died was the power in my eyes.​Given that Madara knows Tobi, it's an odd statement to make if Tobi is Izuna.


Well, it does seem to strongly go against Tobi being Izuna. But I wouldn't rule him out.



> Obito: already covered


Elaborate.



> Shisui:  his suicide seemed quite real based on Itachi's flashback, and he doesn't seem like he'd be old enough to pull off the events during Naruto's birth.


Plus, he couldn't have been controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing his absence.



> Kagami: There's little to no significance attached to the character.  Tobi might as well just be a new character.


I don't know why Kagami was a theory in the first place. There's nothing supporting it.



> Setsuna: Even less significant than Kagama, and the hair doesn't match.


Who the fuck is Setsuna?!



> Madara clone: Recent supplementary material from the editors seems to go against it.  One promotional thing for the Naruto movie had Madara's height at 179cm (as opposed to Tobi's 175ish).  Additionally, one of the captions in Jump said "caption:→(tobis) fierce fight against a former akatsuki, konan!
> konans clever plan with 600billion explosive tags blindsided tobi and damaged the mask. thats when he was unmasked a bit. with the face different from madaras, what he really is!?" (translation from Takl).


Thank God that Madara clone shit is done...


----------



## NinjaWannabe (Aug 1, 2012)

Really anyone other than Obito would be the equivalent of pulling a new character out of thin air, since none of the others have as in depth a back story or a story directly relevant and involving the current characters, which is something all the Naruto stories/arcs have. It would be terrible to think that everything has been building up to something that wasn't as well thought out as Obito eventually becomes Tobi. I will be quite upset if it isn't Tobi, unless Kishi has created an amazing back story for a character that has already been playing out it's just that we don't know who that character is. If that happens and it all fits together I'll salute Kishi's greatness. I'll do that if it turns out to be Obito too, because that would be some amazing writing considering how long ago this has been built up. However, if Naruto get's a 'Lost' ending and disappoints I'll be heartbroken!


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


I noticed that, too, but both Itachi and Kishimoto said Tobi had MS.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 1, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> OKAY! Anyways, Here is the TObito Theory I have come up with, you can quote me on it for future sake. There are NO plot holes, you can try and find one, go ahead, As I have said this is merely a POSSIBILITY, a THEORY. Not 100%,Not Canon, but plausible none the less.
> * means irrelevent, possible, but doesn't MATTER whether it happened or not.
> 
> I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.
> ...



I'd like to see a conversation between Tobi and Madara


----------



## Chuck (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


I don't think it's canon that Tobi's MS was shown WHILE he was using his S/T technique, it's kinda obvious why Kishi hasn't shown Tobi's MS yet if he really does have the same eye with Kakashi.


----------



## auem (Aug 1, 2012)

*can tobi be both izuna and obito??..he has had multiple personas*

i know it is crazy,still i wonder...
what if madara brought back izuna via rinnegan and used zetsu made body to hold his soul,then izuna found dying obito's crushed body and repaired it..then re-installed his soul again....??
current naruto movie has tobi inserting his soul inside menma naruto and we have also seen that it is possible by Dan(ghost transfer technique)..so it is not far-fetched anymore...

tobi sometimes speak contradictorily...like one person correcting other(two zetsu argues even more)...he also had shown goffy side...all can be explained if both izuna and obito sharing same vessel....

what do you think...?


----------



## nochange (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> Tobi has never shown MS.
> tobia has recently shown to be very experienced in uchiha/base sharingan atacks ; uchiha cajun (lol), this S/T tech, and using sharingan to easily counter all their attacks including taijutsu master guy
> 
> this S/T is starting to seem more and more like some masterful tech of a TRUE uchiha, sharingan wielder. NOT some hax MS jutsu. and if izuna is tobi then this all makes sense.
> ...


Really? Do you guys really think its a coincidence that both of their techniques go to the SAME random dimension. Its obvious that these past few chapters are hinting what Tobi's identity is. They're all pointing to ONE person...


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 1, 2012)

You guys need to realize that tie is irrelevant with Tobi's power.  He could be Kishimoto for all we know, and Kishimoto draws his own face to troll us all.  Time space jutsus rip apart any facts you think you know about time.


----------



## Bloo (Aug 1, 2012)

daschysta said:


> False, it's the same jutsu as Kamui, or at least the sister jutsu, that much is obvious. Have you not thought that the reason Kishi hasn't shown Tobi's MS is that it looks the same as Kakashi's and would spoil his identity irrefutably?


If the design is the same as Kakashi's it wouldn't give away Tobi's identity 100%. Tobi has a library of sharingan, it wouldn't be hard to imagine he could have stole it from Obito.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 1, 2012)

Im trying to belivie hes Obito but i cant help to think that Tobi is Madara somehow.

I mean i have compared every picture of Tobis and Madaras face. Kishimoto really needs to explain this when Tobis face gets revealed as Obito.


----------



## Frostman (Aug 1, 2012)

auem said:


> i know it is crazy,still i wonder...
> what if madara brought back izuna via rinnegan and used zetsu made body to hold his soul,then izuna found dying obito's crushed body and repaired it..then re-installed his soul again....??
> current naruto movie has tobi inserting his soul inside menma naruto and we have also seen that it is possible by Dan(ghost transfer technique)..so it is not far-fetched anymore...
> 
> ...


That goofy side was just him acting. Trying to fool the members of Akatsuki. And its not farfetched for a ruthless villain to have a sense of humor.


----------



## SharinganRinnegan (Aug 1, 2012)

what about when he phases??? you're telling me he switches from MS to base each and everytime without people noticing?? u guys are hilarious

QUOTE OF THE DAY!! 
*BeyonderZ*

"Yes, Obito some how went back in time and fought the fourth hokage (-_- )" 
__________________


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> what about when he phases??? you're telling me he switches from MS to base each and everytime without people noticing?? u guys are hilarious


We haven't seen his MS because kishi doesn't want us to. if we did then we would know who tobi is.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> SharinganRinnegan said:
> 
> 
> > what about when he phases??? you're telling me he switches from MS to base each and everytime without people noticing?? u guys are hilarious
> ...


or maybe tobi just has a very peculiar MS that looks exactly like a normal 3 tomoe sharingan


----------



## ch1p (Aug 1, 2012)

SharinganRinnegan said:


> what about when he phases??? you're telling me he switches from MS to base each and everytime without people noticing?? u guys are hilarious



I asked this before. Do you have a panel where Tobi shows his sharingan while he's using his transportation jutsu? All that I remember are either from before or after, never while he's phasing.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Im trying to belivie hes Obito but i cant help to think that Tobi is Madara somehow.
> 
> I mean i have compared every picture of Tobis and Madaras face. Kishimoto really needs to explain this when Tobis face gets revealed as Obito.





Also, Madara is 179cm. Tobi is 175cm, making him 4 centimeters shorter than Madara.


----------



## Kid (Aug 1, 2012)

Look closely

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]


----------



## rob1out (Aug 1, 2012)

I just realized it can't be Izuna.  Kishimoto has said Tobi and madara know each other, and it's also been referenced in one of the manga chapters when Madara said "this is definitely his doing..."

but then in one of the older chapters Madara refers to his brother as [sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]
DEAD!

So honestly, Im starting to think that it's someone else or an unknown character thats going to be given its own back story.... And then there's the tobito theory... IDK.  I just know its not Izuna anymore


----------



## Rindfleisch (Aug 1, 2012)

*Why tobi is not obito.*

sorry for another fail thread in the category obi tobi tobito or whatever this shit is called. Ive been absent for 10 centuries from the naruto forum (more OP) so there might be a chance that there was already a thread in the past. Search function just spits out too many results...so i just throw it at you.

If Tobi would have been obito...he wouldnt wonder about minatos speed when they were fighting back then, wouldnt he``?



also there is no single comment from his side that would hint a teacher-pupil-rleationship...well thats all..
blabla


----------



## Blur (Aug 1, 2012)

Im not a Tobito supporter, but he just comments on his speed and is not that surprised at all.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

auem said:


> i know it is crazy,still i wonder...
> what if madara brought back izuna via rinnegan and used zetsu made body to hold his soul,then izuna found dying obito's crushed body and repaired it..then re-installed his soul again....??
> current naruto movie has tobi inserting his soul inside menma naruto and we have also seen that it is possible by Dan(ghost transfer technique)..so it is not far-fetched anymore...
> 
> ...


No, Tobi is only one person.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

Brainsucker said:


> What if Tobi is actually the second hokage? Tobirama Senju?



Lol, no way.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

rob1out said:


> I just realized it can't be Izuna.  Kishimoto has said Tobi and madara know each other, and it's also been referenced in one of the manga chapters when Madara said "this is definitely his doing..."
> 
> but then in one of the older chapters Madara refers to his brother as [sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]
> DEAD!
> ...



Old news I stated pages and pages ago bro, read and catch up =p



Rindfleisch said:


> also there is no single comment from his side that would hint a teacher-pupil-rleationship...well thats all..
> blabla



There is no single comment hinting against one either. and its possible for the theory to be effective and for Tobi to know SO much about Madara's history that no one else knows.

@mugivara: Obito was a chuunin ranked ninja BEFORE he got the sharingan. Databook confirmed this. Kakashi became a Jounin. And when Obito gained the sharingan, he was able to A-kill a ninja that blinded Kakashi B-Assist Kakashi and keep up with him as they fought/beat against another ninja. 
Don't underestimate Sharingan boosts, it took Sasuke from being blitzed by KN0 to him owning him.
With MS one jutsu allowed him to set ablaze a whole bju.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

*It's So Obvious!*









These are NOT coincidences.

I seriously lol at people who think that one panel random fodder Kagami could personally know Kakashi and Guy somehow and be able to cancel Kamui.

Same thing applies to Izuna, although to a much lesser extent.

Why would Izuna or even better KAGAMI have foreshadowing with Kakashi like that?


----------



## Scizor (Aug 1, 2012)

I have to admit I'm leaning towards Tobito at the moment.

I actually hate to admit it, but it does seem to make the most sense atm, imo.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> These are NOT coincidences.
> 
> I seriously lol at people who think that one panel random fodder Kagami could personally know Kakashi and Guy somehow and be able to cancel Kamui.
> 
> ...



Why would Kisame recognize Obito?? Were they best friends??  The stupid Tobito theory is full of plotholes too, you don't have to keep bashing Kagami because Kagami being Obito's father would be better than Tobi being Obito himself.. I really hope you don't think that Tobi being Obito is good writing


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Why would Kisame recognize Obito?? Were they best friends??  The stupid Tobito theory is full of plotholes too, you don't have to keep bashing Kagami because Kagami being Obito's father would be better than Tobi being Obito himself.. I really hope you don't think that Tobi being Obito is good writing



................Nothing says Kisame recognized Obito when he first saw him. And nothing confirmed it to be Madara because we have NOT seen his face, we just know it is not Madara because what Kisame saw was Tobi. Kisame then sees Tobi again and calls him mizukage/madara, but still we don't see face. And for a world of lies, he hsa no problem with lying. During interrogation he bit his tongue to prevent aoba from seeing the face. Implying the face is important and that it is not madara's face since we have seen madara's face a dozen times. 
What would cause a problem? If Aoba saw the face, and recognized it, and he could recognize Obito's face, he's capable of it, and that would be a problem for Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Why would Kisame recognize Obito??


Why would he need to? Kisame didn't know who obi was when he first met him.


> Were they best friends??


No.  





> The stupid Tobito theory is full of plotholes too,


Read  then say it's full of plotholes. 





> you don't have to keep bashing Kagami because Kagami being Obito's father would be better than Tobi being Obito himself..


Tobi being Kagami would ruin the story. 





> I really hope you don't think that Tobi being Obito is good writing


it is good writing. It fits with all of Kishi's established themes and at this point, it's the only thing that makes sense.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 1, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> The same implication currently doesn't apply to Kagami, although he was introduced long ago. *His story, if any, hasn't even been introduced yet*



neither was Nagato's



TH4N4T0S said:


> Sure, but you can't rule out the possibilities attached to the Tobito theory either.



i can when i have multiple plotholes to point at



TH4N4T0S said:


> If the Tobito theory has holes, the Kagami theory is in itself an enormous sink hole -- not impossible to fill, but relatively difficult to fill.



lol Kagami is actually much easier to cater for, a blank slate as it were



TH4N4T0S said:


> I'm not saying he could have recognized Obito's jutsu. I'm saying he could have recognized Sharingan genjutsu -- that Tobi's genjutsu was similar to Madara's.



which rules out Obito because he hadnt even awakened his dojutsu, the Kyuubi never had the opportunity to recognise it in the first place

major plothole right here




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. It's impossible. We wouldn't know who Kagami is. We wouldn't recognize him.



when will you get it through your thick head that this is a non-issue? there are an infinite amount of ways around this


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> neither was Nagato's


 Tobi is an entirely different story from Nagato in that aspect.





> i can when i have multiple plotholes to point at


Nothing on that list is a plothole. You call it so because you don't want the theory to come true. Read  post and then try telling me there are plotholes.





> lol Kagami is actually much easier to cater for, a blank slate as it were


He's much easier to cater for because we don't know anything about him. Because he wasn't intended to have any more of a role in the story! He was introduced 200 chapters after Tobi. You're saying that for 200 chapters, Tobi's true identity hadn't even been introduced in the story yet?!

I could say Tobi is Torifu Akimichi. I could say he's Setsuna Uchiha. I could say he's the Uzumaki Leader. I could say he's ANYONE who's only appeared in one panel/chapter. And you know what? it would be just as plausible because we don't know anything about them so there's nothing to contradict them being Tobi. Sure you could say, because they're one panel fodder. Well, guess what, bud. Same thing applies to Kagami! What makes Kagami so special? NOTHING!

Of course there are certain things that seem to discount well known characters as candidates for Tobi's identity, but that's because we don't know the full story. It's because Kishi doesn't want to give out all the info and spill all the beans! Isn't this obvious? Certain things are unexplained because they will be explained later. That's the nature of a plot twist. It's not supposed to make sense at first, but it will slowly start to make sense as more and more is revealed.





> which rules out Obito because he hadnt even awakened his dojutsu, the Kyuubi never had the opportunity to recognise it in the first place
> 
> major plothole right here


You're not getting what he's saying. He might recognize the genjutsu used to control him. Doesn't mean that he recognized it as coming from Obito.






> when will you get it through your thick head that this is a non-issue? there are an infinite amount of ways around this


No, there's not. Kishi's not writing reality! he can't make the reveal be climactic and satisfying to the readers. Kagami uchiha would be anti-climactic and quite frankly, very dumb.

Yeah, the big mystery of the manga..... he's that random guy you saw for one panel in a chapter 200 chapters after his introduction!

Fans: .........  -___-  .......Fuck you, Kishi......

Besides, if there's infinite ways around it, then give me one of them.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

@ObitoUchiha111: *sigh* Still continuing to bash the Kagami theory...
You obviously didn't listen to a word of that thing I said the other day about not bashing other people's theories just because they bash yours >_>.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> @ObitoUchiha111: *sigh* Still continuing to bash the Kagami theory...
> You obviously didn't listen to a word of that thing I said the other day about not bashing other people's theories just because they bash yours >_>.


I'm not bashing it just because they bashed mine. I'm "bashing" it because people are supporting a theory with no evidence and a little bit of evidence _against_ it and are confident in it like it's the best theory or something. I a refuting the Kagami theory and pointing out what makes no sense.

For some reason, Kagami supporters never reply when someone puts up a challenge for their theory.

What, was Kagami Madara's son? That's speculation because, again, we don't know ANYTHING about him. Your saying it's plausible based on wild speculation about a character you know nothing about. That's why it's plausible, because people can fill it up with whatever they want.

Anyways, I'm sure jacamo will repond and tell everyone to ignore me or something like that. He, yet again, won't provide an argument against _my_ argument against the Kagami theory.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm not bashing it just because they bashed mine. I'm "bashing" it because people are supporting a theory with no evidence and a little bit of evidence _against_ it and are confident in it like it's the best theory or something. I a refuting the Kagami theory and pointing out what makes no sense.
> 
> For some reason, Kagami supporters never reply when someone puts up a challenge for their theory.
> 
> ...



But you should leave us, Kagami supporters, alone then if you hate our theory. I don't see you bashing the Fugaku theory or other ones. It's just Kagami. That's the only theory you target.

You can't brainwash everyone here to support the Tobito theory, okay?

I'm trying to say this in the nicest way possible.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 1, 2012)

still in denial about the plotholes 

just because you have convinced yourself that they arent plotholes... dont expect other people to be convinced so easily


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 1, 2012)

Keep focusing on "plot holes" while ignoring the mounting pile of hints.

Just remember that when it happens, we told you it was coming.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> But you should leave us, Kagami supporters, alone then if you hate our theory. I don't see you bashing the Fugaku theory or other ones. It's just Kagami. That's the only theory you target.
> 
> You can't brainwash everyone here to support the Tobito theory, okay?
> 
> I'm trying to say this in the nicest way possible.


I'm sorry if you think I'm only targeting Kagami supporters. That's not the case. Tbh, the Fugaku theory is even worse. But no one is bringing it up in this thread so there's no reason for me to "bash" it.

Brainwash? Don't believe it if you don't want to.





jacamo said:


> still in denial about the plotholes
> 
> just because you have convinced yourself that they arent plotholes... dont expect other people to be convinced so easily




Would you mind telling me _why_ they are plotholes now? Without any reasons, your argument, "Teehee, there's still plotholes, hurr durr" is about as valid as me saying I just ate Godzilla for dinner.

What's been proven is that they are possibilities. If they are possibilities, the they are therefore not plotholes.You need to learn what the words you're saying mean before you use them.


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 1, 2012)

Although the Obito theory some people stated in this forum are great and highly possible, I can't give up on Izuna yet and these are my reasons that I have come up with.

Madara could've revived Izuna with the rinnegan and told him how they could seek revenge against everyone for wasting Izuna's life just like that. Thus making Tobi seek revenge on everyone today.

Also he could've played the 'Eye for an Eye' rule on Izuna saying, 'Hey i revived you and Konoha betrayed you because our people gave up. I have a plan to make the world ours and I need you to cooperate with me.'. Madara could've told Izuna to tell everyone that he gave up his eyes for Madara, and i'm pretty sure Izuna wouldn't have wanted that. They could be plotting everything together, even though Izuna is not satisfied with what Madara did to him, this is just a wild guess. 

I don't know if Izuna had no eyes when he was revived but when Madara got edo'd he still had his eyes even when Tobi had them, idk if this is the case for Izuna, but who knows.


There is also a possibility that Madara could've took someone else's eyes and gave them to Izuna for a while. There could also be a possibility that Izuna also could've stolen Obito's eyes because it's effects are similar to Kakashi's eyes but *I highly doubt that*

Let's start off about how Madara got Izuna's eyes


From Tobi's side of the story, he said Izuna _willingly_ gave his eyes to Madara and then clench's his arm as if he's disgusted at this act. This is too shady, i'm pretty sure Izuna didn't give Madara his eyes willingly and he knew that Madara used his eyes too much for becoming so power hungry and Izuna didn't want to fall into the blindness like he did. Sasuke know's this too because when Itachi told the story he witnessed Madara taking Izuna's eyes.



There are two sides to this story and we've known that Tobi is one of the biggest liars in this manga. I'm willing to take Itachi's words over Tobi's just because of that arm clench and he lies way too much otherwise why else would they add that arm clench, it's too show off emotion on the previous statement, or for the upcoming statement.

Not to mention that Tobi stated that it was _*his*_ eyes to begin with and if we look deep then we know that Izuna gave Madara(or Madara took) his eyes and then gave it to Nagato so Izuna can revive him after.

The only thing that has me stumped is why he would have the Zetsu goo parts when he can have his full body.

Anyways I'm not just rooting for Izuna, I'm rooting for Izuna and Obito, these to me are the _*only*_ possibilities to who Tobi is because let's face it, Kagami was shown in only 3 or 4 panels, he barely talked, Shisui is a laughingstock, lets face it, he wouldn't controlled the Mizukage, and not to mention Danzo stole his eye and then he his other eyes to Itachi. Danzo.....no, and setsuna.... 	

From where I stand it's
50% Obito
45% Izuna
5% other


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 1, 2012)

*To all tobi = obito fans!!! this is simple 100% proof it can't be him!!!*

There is no need for a long drawn out explanation. There will be no need for anymore nonsense tobi=obito theories. I'm gonna hit you obito fan boys/girls with the manga facts. No made up crazy theories, just facts.

During the *2nd ninja war* tobi was sneaking around the rain village and gave nagato the rinnegan at a very young age. Then later on he gave yahiko the idea to make akatsuki.

Nagato is like a few years older than kakashi and obito. Basically obito probably wasn't even a ninja yet nor did he have the sharringan. *This all went down waaaaay before obito even died * Before obito died and right up to the point when he died *akatsuki was already being formed.* Also, orochimaru had already left the village and joined akatsuki when obito died lol. Just to throw this in there for another nail in the coffin. Tobi called kakashi a* child*.

*RIDDLE ME THIS TOBI=OBITO FANS. Who was forming/running akatsuki while obito was still in ninja school(or before he was in ninja school), and right up to the point of his death?*

For all you "madara soul transferred into obito's body whatever blah blah blah" people. I'm guessing orochimaru's soul transfer jutsu is nothing now I guess he was bested by the damn uchiha once again!!!! lol at orochimaru thinking he created that jutsu.........


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 1, 2012)

Easy.

Madara did all that.

Mods can lock/trash the thread now.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Osaeri said:


> Although the Obito theory some people stated in this forum are great and highly possible, I can't give up on Izuna yet and these are my reasons that I have come up with.
> 
> Madara could've revived Izuna with the rinnegan and told him how they could seek revenge against everyone for wasting Izuna's life just like that. Thus making Tobi seek revenge on everyone today.
> 
> ...


Wow. This was really well thought out. Nice job. Aside from Obito Izuna's really the only Tobi candidate that would make sense. Personally, I'm still hoping for Obito, though. Nice job and +rep

Although, there is a hole i can see in this theory. Madara said Izuna was dead and all that was left of him is his eyes. That would indicate that he is presently dead and thus cannot be Tobi, who is alive. Although, if Tobi actually is Izuna, I'm sure Kishi could think of a way around that.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 1, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Easy.
> 
> Madara did all that.
> 
> *Mods can lock/trash the thread now.*


um, why? This is here for all of them to see. I didn't make this to be trashed or locked lol dude what the hell?


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 1, 2012)

Tobi = Obito bitches

deal with it


----------



## narutored23 (Aug 1, 2012)

What are you talking about there is one thing that is flawed in your theory and the fact is madara gave nagato the rennegan


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

Great thread. +reps Tobito supporters won't be able to counter this. But you really should've posted this in the Tobi's identity thread.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 1, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Tobi = Obito bitches
> 
> deal with it


Obito was nothing more than plot development for kakashi. He was also only put there to explain a big mystery at the time. Which was why did kakashi have the sharingan. Why can't your cult accept this?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 1, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> RIDDLE ME THIS TOBI=OBITO FANS. Who was forming/running akatsuki while obito was still in ninja school(or before he was in ninja school), and right up to the point of his death?



you better get ready for people to call your facts "assumptions"

but yeh... another plothole


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 1, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Great thread. +reps Tobito supporters won't be able to counter this. But you really should've posted this in the Tobi's identity thread.



Watch me, As long as the possibiilty exists, then Obito is an option.



(510)THIZZ said:


> There is no need for a long drawn out explanation. There will be no need for anymore nonsense tobi=obito theories. I'm gonna hit you obito fan boys/girls with the manga facts. No made up crazy theories, just facts.
> 
> During the *2nd ninja war* tobi was sneaking around the rain village and gave nagato the rinnegan at a very young age. Then later on he gave yahiko the idea to make akatsuki.
> 
> ...



I'll fix this for you.

A: Love how these ARENT facts. 
B: For all we know Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan during the 2nd Ninja War and kept tabs on his whereabouts.
C: As for spurring Yahiko to form Akatsuki, this also could have easily been done by Madara. 
To dismiss this POSSIBILITY would mean that you also believe that Tobi fought Hashirama at the VOTE, took his flesh during said battle, and faked his death...........Which we know were all actions by Madara. And all said in the same 2 chapters back to back. So no you can not discount it.
D: Nagato is likely a couple years older than Minato if not the same age. Just because they were trained before Minato, we never got their age, and it could have been they were trained at a younger age while Minato got trained at an older age. Its a mystery, but irrelevant.
E:We don't know when Madara OR the Masked Man made himself known to Nagato. A question to be answered.
F: No, Tobi called the group 'children'. The only ones there who WERENT children were Kakashi and Yamato. And even then, while he was ready to undergo the guise of Madara to the world in a matter of chapters afterward, he had to sell the act.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Madara said Izuna was dead and all that was left of him is his eyes. That would indicate that he is presently dead and thus cannot be Tobi, who is alive.


... Man, I'm telling you, that's not what Madara's statement was getting across.

Good to see that you're opening up to other prospects though.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> There is no need for a long drawn out explanation. There will be no need for anymore nonsense tobi=obito theories. I'm gonna hit you obito fan boys/girls with the manga facts. No made up crazy theories, just facts.
> 
> During the *2nd ninja war* tobi was sneaking around the rain village and gave nagato the rinnegan at a very young age. Then later on he gave yahiko the idea to make akatsuki.
> 
> ...


Madara did it.

Well actually, Obito might have been around 16-17 at the time Akatsuki was formed, so no problem!



Yachiru said:


> Tobi = Obito bitches
> 
> deal with it






(510)THIZZ said:


> Kagami was nothing more than last second fodder. He was also only put there to fill in Danzo's team so the number of people on the team would be balanced out. Why can't your cult accept this?


I know.

Those damn Kagami supporters...



jacamo said:


> you better get ready for people to call your assumptions "facts"
> 
> but yeh... another possibility


I know.

Those Kagami supporters think all their assumptions are facts...


----------



## Talis (Aug 1, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> Obito was nothing more than plot development for kakashi. He was also only put there to explain a big mystery at the time. Which was why did kakashi have the sharingan. Why can't your cult accept this?


Why don't you accept Tobito already with the huge hints of the current chapters.
''Oh this oh that'' Kishi prepared the Tobi thing for a really long time so there are still shitloads of secrets to be revealed.
Like i said the only thing which goes against it is Madara and Tobi's timeline, but the long haired masked man is obviously the real Madara= timeline settled.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 1, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> ................Nothing says Kisame recognized Obito when he first saw him. And nothing confirmed it to be Madara because we have NOT seen his face, we just know it is not Madara because what Kisame saw was Tobi. Kisame then sees Tobi again and calls him mizukage/madara, but still we don't see face. And for a world of lies, he hsa no problem with lying. During interrogation he bit his tongue to prevent aoba from seeing the face. Implying the face is important and that it is not madara's face since we have seen madara's face a dozen times.
> What would cause a problem? If Aoba saw the face, and recognized it, and he could recognize Obito's face, he's capable of it, and that would be a problem for Tobi.



Let see from kisame point of view. Kisame bit his tongue in order to aviod aoba to know about moon eye plan. Kisame was sent to spy bee before tobi foolishly announce his moon eye plan. Kisame was not aware of it. It has nothing to do about tobi's identity. Avoid enemy knowing the akatsuki's true plan is pushing priority.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 2, 2012)

lol at my thread being moved to this big ass thread. I stopped reading this thread at page 10. My thread wasn't to *debate who tobi might be.* It was about How obito has nothing more to do with this storyline. It wasn't *theories about tobi's identity*. It was *manga facts* showing the obito cult that his relevance no longer matters after kakashi's story. Kakashi's no longer cocky and has a sharingan because of that experience and that is all. 

Just wanted to end the fodder uchiha who came back to life 2 years later to fight on par with one of the strongest naruto characters nonsense.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Kisame bit his tongue in order to aviod aoba to know about moon eye plan.



Um, no. Kisame bit his tongue to prevent Aoba from seeing Tobi's face. Not Moon's eye plan.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Why don't you accept Tobito already with the huge hints of the current chapters.
> ''Oh this oh that'' Kishi prepared the Tobi thing for a really long time so there are still shitloads of secrets to be revealed.
> Like i said the only thing which goes against it is Madara and Tobi's timeline, but the long haired masked man is obviously the real Madara= timeline settled.



If Obito = Tobi then...


----------



## SaiST (Aug 2, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol at my thread being moved to this big ass thread. I stopped reading this thread at page 10. My thread wasn't to *debate who tobi might be.* It was about How obito has nothing more to do with this storyline. It wasn't a *theories about tobi's identity*. It was *manga facts* showing the obito cult that his relevance no longer matters after kakashi's story. Kakashi's no longer cocky and has a sharingan because of that experience and that is all.
> 
> Just wanted to end the fodder uchiha who came back to life 2 years later to fight on par with one of the strongest naruto characters nonsense.


Which still relates to the discussion concerning Tobi's identity, and would have eventually been consumed it anyways.

Better pick up at page 11. 

Didn't move it, by the way—but I agree with the decision. ;p


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 2, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Let see from kisame point of view. Kisame bit his tongue in order to aviod aoba to know about moon eye plan. Kisame was sent to spy bee before tobi foolishly announce his moon eye plan. Kisame was not aware of it. It has nothing to do about tobi's identity. Avoid enemy knowing the akatsuki's true plan is pushing priority.



with his whole body being intangible.
with his whole body being intangible.
with his whole body being intangible.
with his whole body being intangible.
Fail Post is Fail.

Yeah, that makes sense, Kishi intentionally stopped Kisame from showing the biggest mystery in this manga because he believed it would show the moons eye plan that was already revealed 
No, its because the face is important, because its not madara, and its because it is recognizable and would have an impact. That's why Tobi is keeping on the mask. 
Is it 100% obito? NO. Is it more likely than the others? YES.
Who is the SECOND most likely identity? Izuna. 
But he has more against him and not as much going for him as Obito does, especially with NEW information getting gained each and every week that is screaming CONNECTION with Kakashi. They have had FAR too many interactions, stares, dialogues, and crossover panels NOT to have a history together, and Izuna wouldn't fit that bill.

Look at it from KISHIS point of view, not Kisames


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol at my thread being moved to this big ass thread. I stopped reading this thread at page 10. My thread wasn't to *debate who tobi might be.* It was about How obito has nothing more to do with this storyline. It wasn't *theories about tobi's identity*. It was *manga facts* showing the obito cult that his relevance no longer matters after kakashi's story. Kakashi's no longer cocky and has a sharingan because of that experience and that is all.
> 
> Just wanted to end the fodder uchiha who came back to life 2 years later to fight on par with one of the strongest naruto characters nonsense.



This man is smart  How can anyone else see it differently Obito was clearly crushed by rocks. Fodder on top of that


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> They have had FAR too many interactions, stares, dialogues, and crossover panels NOT to have a history together, and Izuna wouldn't fit that bill.



possibly a red herring


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

Kagami haters be callin' Kagami fodder when Obito is the one who's fodder and got crushed by boulders.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol at my thread being moved to this big ass thread. I stopped reading this thread at page 10. My thread wasn't to *debate who tobi might be.* It was about How Kagami has nothing more to do with this storyline. It wasn't *theories about tobi's identity*. It was *common sense* showing the Kagami cult that his relevance no longer matters after the Danzo flashback. Danzo's dead now so he won't show up anymore.
> 
> Just wanted to end the fodder uchiha who came back to life 60 years later to fight on par with one of the strongest naruto characters nonsense.


I know.

When will the Kagami supporters learn?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> possibly a red herring



possible, but now who's the one grasping at straws, lol.

Occams razor, often times the simplest answer is the most obvious. in which case all these things are pointing towards one character in particular, but you are trying to overlook them with unanswered questions at the moment, trying to find holes that don't exist. when infact, its obvious.

Kagami isn't simple. Because people don't know who he is. I do, but this needs to be good for the entirety of the fanbase that the people would recognize.




HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kagami haters be callin' Kagami fodder when Obito is the one who's fodder and got crushed by boulders.



So the guy who had 6, SIX, chapters dedicated to him changing Kakashi's life, making him who he is today, and growing in his own way also, is fodder compared to the guy who was in a total of 3-4 PANELS with 1 line of dialogue? 

COOL


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kagami haters be callin' Kagami fodder when Obito is the one who's fodder and got crushed by boulders.



Tobito believers are stupid.. They think Obito isn't fodder when he clearly is.. If Kishi can make Obito that powerful within 2 years then why can't he make a connection with Kagami? Kagami isn't out of hand if you think of the Tobito theor


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> They think Obito isn't fodder when he clearly is.. If Kishi can make Obito that powerful within 2 years then why can't he make a connection with Kagami? Kagami isn't out of hand if you think of the Tobito theory



Kishi made Naruto and Sasuke pretty damn powerful in TWO years. 
And even then there's the possibility that time flows differently in the pocket dimension in a hyperbolic time chamber esque training fashion.
Read a few pages in this thread before posting, it will save me from having to be so damn repetitive


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> This man is smart  How can anyone else see it differently Obito was clearly crushed by rocks. Fodder on top of that


Fodder has two meanings in this case.

One means weak. 

The other means unimportant to the story.

Obito is neither.



jacamo said:


> possibly a red herring


So how will Kishi explain said red herring?



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kagami haters be callin' Kagami fodder when Obito is the one who's fodder and got crushed by boulders.


Exactly.

Everyone knows any average shinobi can have an enormous boulder land on them and they'll walk out perfectly fine!


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> neither was Nagato's


You're drawing a comparison between something confirmed at present (Nagato's story) and something we don't know (Kagami's story). And your supporting argument is? 

_Bu... but... Nagato's story was unknown too! _

Irrelevant much? 


> i can when i have multiple plotholes to point at


I'm sure you do. 

_Orochimaru is dead! He was eternally sealed. None of his snakes were confirmed to have escaped. His cells in Kabuto aren't necessarily conscious. Since these are multiple "holes" I can point at, I can ignore the possibility of Orochimaru's return. _

Guess how that would have turned out.


> lol Kagami is actually much easier to cater for, a blank slate as it were


Not when you're trying to make your main characters appealing to sell your story.


> which rules out Obito because he hadnt even awakened his dojutsu,


By the time of Tobi's attack? You wouldn't know. What, are you Kishimoto's sister or something?


> the Kyuubi never had the opportunity to recognise it in the first place


Again, I'm saying he could have recognized it as a Sharingan genjutsu, not necessarily as Obito's specific jutsu. Needless to say, he had the opportunity to identify a Sharingan genjutsu when Madara used one on him.

Read again.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> possible, but now who's the one grasping at straws, lol.
> 
> Occams razor, often times the simplest answer is the most obvious. in which case all these things are pointing towards one character in particular, but you are trying to overlook them with unanswered questions at the moment, trying to find holes that don't exist. when infact, its obvious.
> 
> Kagami isn't simple. Because people don't know who he is. I do, but this needs to be good for the entirety of the fanbase that the people would recognize.



highlighting a possibility is not grasping at straws

Obito was in diapers when Tobi was plotting and building Akatsuki (lol Thizz) thats not a question that needs answering, thats a frikin plothole

im not against Obito... im against plotholes and incongruent plot


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Kishi made Naruto and Sasuke pretty damn powerful in TWO years.
> And even then there's the possibility that time flows differently in the pocket dimension in a hyperbolic time chamber esque training fashion.
> Read a few pages in this thread before posting, it will save me from having to be so damn repetitive



There's the *possibility*.. You're not convincing me with that word. That's just some bs speculation you have going on there. And the amount of power gained between Naruto/Sasuke vs. Obito in 2 years is STRONGLY in Obito's favor. From scrub to Minato-level?? Why are you even comparing it's not even close.


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 2, 2012)

What I want to know from Kagami supporters is what would his motive be? he had very few lines and why would madara choose him? Does he have special powers or something?

The point i'm trying to get to is that we have very little information on him since he basically has no history other than teaming up with Hiruzen's team for the first shinobi war. I mean if there were chapters were people discussed about him like how Obito was discussed in Part 1 and Part 2, or how Izuna was mentioned in Madara's rise to power then maybe I would understand, but Kishi barely revealed any information to us, other than people expanding on what his name means lol.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> *highlighting a possibility is not grasping at straws*
> 
> Obito was in diapers when Tobi was plotting and building Akatsuki (lol Thizz) thats not a question that needs answering, thats a frikin plothole
> 
> im not against Obito... im against plotholes and incongruent plot





Thebaxman said:


> *There's the possibility.. You're not convincing me with that word. That's just some bs speculation you have going on there. *And the amount of power gained between Naruto/Sasuke vs. Obito in 2 years is STRONGLY in Obito's favor. From scrub to Minato-level?? Why are you even comparing it's not even close.



You Two are the worst at deductive reasoning on the planet, ever, for eternity. Jump from side to side like a pancake. you can't have it both ways. put your entire blank slate as a possibility, and then go and say other possibilities don't count. everything is an assumption until we know without a shadow of a doubt who it is when the mask comes off and we get a story. Seriously, watch a show about Law one day and see what reasonable doubt it, thats the first step to learning about proper arguments.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> highlighting a possibility is not grasping at straws


Same thing could be said for our arguments against your "plotholes" which you conveniently ignore.



> Obito was in diapers when Tobi was plotting and building Akatsuki (lol Thizz) thats not a question that needs answering, thats a frikin plothole


-___- No it isn't........ It could have very well been Madara not Tobi.



> im not against Obito... im against plotholes and incongruent plot


You're not against Obito? Yeah, right... Whenever we present arguments against your "plotholes" you ignore them and say "you can't escape the motherfucking plotholes!" or something of the sort.

Yeeeaaaahhhhh, you're against Obito.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You Two are the worst at deductive reasoning on the planet, ever, for eternity. Jump from side to side like a pancake. you can't have it both ways. put your entire blank slate as a possibility, and then go and say other possibilities don't count. everything is an assumption until we know without a shadow of a doubt who it is when the mask comes off and we get a story. Seriously, watch a show about Law one day and see what reasonable doubt it, thats the first step to learning about proper arguments.



Tobito believers are the ones who say other possibilities don't count. ObitoUchiha111 goes around saying it HAS to be Obito or Izuna. You don't like other theories so you decide to listen to one where a 13 year old boy (scrub and fodder)who was crushed by an avalanche of rocks and lived by the *WILL OF FIRE* was taken by Madara, completely took a u-turn in personality and became Hokage level within 2 years. ???? That would go down as the worst writing in manga history. Even worse than Bleach! Unless Kishi can nicely cover up the 1200000 plotholes in the Tobito theory it can pass


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> There's the *possibility*.. You're not convincing me with that word. That's just some bs speculation you have going on there. And the amount of power gained between Naruto/Sasuke vs. Obito in 2 years is STRONGLY in Obito's favor. From scrub to Minato-level?? Why are you even comparing it's not even close.


No one has to convince you. The real goal is to explain how the Tobito theory is plausible despite its holes. Assumptions from coincidences and possibilities are the only way to explain those holes at the moment. Trying to debunk the theory for that reason is futile. 

Even the best physicists in the world have questions about how the big bang started, how something could have been created from nothing, how such an infinitesimal phenomenon resulted in an immeasurable thing called the universe, and so on. But if you think the existence of such unexplained questions, a.k.a. holes, debunks the theory, then your reasoning is faulty.

This has nothing to do with science, but it has everything to do with how one argues against a theory.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> You're drawing a comparison between something confirmed at present (Nagato's story) and something we don't know (Kagami's story). And your supporting argument is?
> 
> _Bu... but... Nagato's story was unknown too! _
> 
> Irrelevant much?



i guess i hit a nerve

and no, its not irrelevant because (at the time) we didnt know ANYTHING about Nagato's story for almost the entire time he was masquerading as Pain 

this is identical to Tobi's situation 



TH4N4T0S said:


> By the time of Tobi's attack? You wouldn't know. What, are you Kishimoto's sister or something?
> 
> Again, I'm saying he could have recognized it as a Sharingan genjutsu, not necessarily as Obito's specific jutsu. Needless to say, he had the opportunity to identify a Sharingan genjutsu when Madara used one on him.
> 
> Read again.



im not playing this diplomatic merry go round with you

if it was just a Sharingan genjutsu he recognised, the Kyuubi wouldnt have said "You".... the Kyuubi recognised who Tobi was, thats my point


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Tobito believers are the ones who say other possibilities don't count. ObitoUchiha111 goes around saying it HAS to be Obito or Izuna. You don't like other theories so you decide to listen to one where a 13 year old boy (scrub and fodder)who was crushed by an avalanche of rocks and lived by the *WILL OF FIRE* was taken by Madara, completely took a u-turn in personality and became Hokage level within 2 years. ???? That would go down as the worst writing in manga history. Even worse than Bleach! Unless Kishi can nicely cover up the 1200000 plotholes in the Tobito theory it can pass


I almost feel bad you can't see that Tobi being Obito is good writing and yet you think Kagami is perfectly acceptable.

"Yeah, let's make the main villain some random fodder who didn't do shit in the one chapter he appeared in which was 200 chapters after Tobi's introduction so this makes no sense anyway! Yeah, sure no one will recognize him and neither will anyone currently fighting him so it would ruin the reveal, but yeah! This random fodder is the one behind everything! He's not even connected to one of the main characters but to this old guy everyone hates who died back in chapter 481!"

^Yeeeeeeeeep. Flawless writing right there.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 2, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Watch me, As long as the possibiilty exists, then *Obito is an option*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When trolling goes wrong lol. I was under the impression that nagato was only a little bit older than kakashi and obito. This just proves my point even more. The sanin were like in there 20's(or a bit younger) during the *2ND NINJA WAR* SO how old would that make obito genius? So according to your troll logic. Madara did all this stuff and after the 15 or 16 year old obito got crushed like a bug he came back and took over akatsuki in 2 years? So you're saying that madara really died shortly after obito died? LOL!!!!! BOW DOWN TO TO THE GREATEST UCHIHA OF ALL TIME!!! Madara who?, shisui what? lol itachi wasn't shit compared to obito. obito being weak was all an act!!! He trolled us all, he set  that situation up to fake his death. DAT OBITO!!! Obito makes all of naruto's hard work look like complete shit. This manga should be called "OBITO" not naruto don't you think obito fan boys/girl

LOL like I said before, Obito was nothing more than plot development for kakashi. *The trolls have taken over this thread I'm done here.*


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not playing this diplomatic merry go round with you


Basically saying you can't carry on a decent and intellectual debate.



> if it was just a Sharingan genjutsu he recognised, the Kyuubi wouldnt have said "You".... the Kyuubi recognised who Tobi was, thats my point


You're misunderstanding. He could have thought Tobi was Madara because he recognized Obito's jutsu as being similar to Madara's.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Yeah, let's make the main villain some random fodder who didn't do shit in the one chapter he appeared in which was 200 chapters after Tobi's introduction



this is exactly what happened with Nagato


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> When trolling goes wrong lol. I was under the impression that nagato was only a little bit older than kakashi and obito. This just proves my point even more. The sanin were like in there 20's(or a bit younger) during the *2ND NINJA WAR* SO how old would that make obito genius? So according to your troll logic. Madara did all this stuff and after the 15 or 16 year old obito got crushed like a bug he came back and took over akatsuki in 2 years? So you're saying that madara really died shortly after obito died? LOL!!!!! BOW DOWN TO TO THE GREATEST UCHIHA OF ALL TIME!!! Madara who?, shisui what? lol itachi wasn't shit compared to obito. obito being weak was all an act!!! He trolled us all, he set  that situation up to fake his death. DAT OBITO!!! Obito makes all of naruto's hard work look like complete shit. This manga should be called "OBITO" not naruto don't you think obito fan boys/girl




obito was damaged by the boulders at 13. It's possible for him to have spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki at 16-17. 

I can't believe people are underestimating an UCHIHA who was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. He was almost guaranteed to be hax if he survived.



> LOL like I said before, Obito was nothing more than plot development for kakashi.


And you know that for sure how?



> *The trolls have taken over this thread I'm done here.*


Yep. _We're_ the trolls.



jacamo said:


> this is exactly what happened with Nagato


Stop it. Just stop.

Nagato was so different. Pain wasn't really being hyped up to be a character we know and recognize like Tobi has been. It was just "Ooh, mysterious, silhouette, what does he look like?" Because he was the leader of Akatsuki, people naturally wanted to see his face and know what he looked like and who he was. But it wasn't as if he was hyped to be someone we know.

Tobi is different. His identity has been hyped up for 400 chapters now. And he ends up being someone in 2 panels? 

lolwut.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

I would accept Tobi=Obito if he was the pre-chapter 363 Tobi. That's where it all started to go wrong, by revealing him as the mastermind and then claiming to be Madara in the next chapter. The other issue is that Tobi is a completely untrustworthy source of information - utterly crap writing when he's relating backstory. That won't change whoever he turns out to be. Goofy Tobi was better than this lying bastard. If there must be a twist, Tobi=Madara was it. That's still one of the most dramatic moments in the manga. Announcing himself as Madara with lightning flashing in the distance, wearing a black hooded cloak, and a close-up of his sharingan.

Whatever. I can't wait to see how Tobi knows Madara. Hopefully, it's a great revelation but at this point I expect to   and then  .


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> this is exactly what happened with Nagato


lol this will be ignored(like every other FACT that's posted in here). Just stop responding to them they trolling the shit out of you.

Here's a perfect example of a troll post. Learn to spot troll post.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> obito was damaged by the boulders at 13. It's possible for him to have spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki at 16-17.
> 
> I can't believe people are underestimating an UCHIHA who was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. *He was almost guaranteed to be hax if he survived.
> *
> ...


----------



## Tharris (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *obito was damaged by the boulders at 13. It's possible for him to have spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki at 16-17. *



Yahiko and Obito died during the third great ninja war.
Obito would've had no time to convince the Akatsuki to create themselves, because they already were.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol this will be ignored(like every other FACT that's posted in here). Just stop responding to them they trolling the shit out of you.


Lol. How is it a FACT that it's the same case as Nagato? No. it's an assumption.

Show me proof that Tobi being a similar case to Nagato is a FACT and I'll believe you.



> Here's a perfect example of a troll post. Learn to spot troll post.


How was that a troll post? Obito was just like Naruto and had the ability to awaken MS. You're telling me he wouldn't have been immensely powerful if he survived?

Obito's MS is basically like the equivalent to Kurama. The parallel is even more evident seeing as how Obito would only have one of his sharingan left and Naruto only had half of Kurama's chakra. 

Naruto wasn't that great in the beginning either. In fact, he was just like Obito, and look at him now. Pwnin' bijuu.



			
				Tharris said:
			
		

> Yahiko and Obito died during the third great ninja war.
> Obito would've had no time to convince the Akatsuki to create themselves, because they already were.


 Well, I guess i should have thought that out more, huh, lol.

I guess it's possible that was Madara then.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I almost feel bad you can't see that Tobi being Obito is good writing and yet you think Kagami is perfectly acceptable.
> 
> "Yeah, let's make the main villain some random fodder who didn't do shit in the one chapter he appeared in which was 200 chapters after Tobi's introduction so this makes no sense anyway! Yeah, sure no one will recognize him and neither will anyone currently fighting him so it would ruin the reveal, but yeah! This random fodder is the one behind everything! He's not even connected to one of the main characters but to this old guy everyone hates who died back in chapter 481!"
> 
> ^Yeeeeeeeeep. Flawless writing right there.



We all know it's much easier for Kishi to explain Kagami being Tobi vs. Obito being Tobi... Just because he's introduced 200 chapters after Tobi doesn't mean it can't be Kagami.. They are both fodder, stop saying Obito is not fodder he clearly is.... He was only used for Kakashi Gaiden it's funny how you think he isn't fodder, the guy is a scrub. Also  I never said Kagami is perfectly acceptable. I don't even think it's Kagami. Don't talk about good writing when you can't even read and comprehend the English language. 

And we don't know if Kagami died, he is ASSUMED to be dead. Obito was buried by an avalanche of rocks.. What if Kagami turned out to be Obito's father or something? If Tobi was Obito the amount of plot holes he would have to do way too much explaining to cover up the plotholes.. As to other theories where there aren't as much plot holes and it would be much cleaner, better and easier to explain..

On a final note, how is changing someone who lived by the Will of Fire to become so evil to destroy his own village good writing?? That is complete shit and I along with others will be VERY disappointed if that were to happen.

EDIT: The way you look at the Kagami theory is biased too, you make it sound like if it were to be Kagami there would be no explaining and it would just be stupid. Would you rather - Explanation that MAKES SENSE (Not Obito) or Explanation that has a lot of plotholes (Obito) ?? Good writing my ass


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> I would accept Tobi=Obito if he was the pre-chapter 363 Tobi. That's where it all started to go wrong, by revealing him as the mastermind and then claiming to be Madara in the next chapter. The other issue is that Tobi is a completely untrustworthy source of information - utterly crap writing when he's relating backstory. That won't change whoever he turns out to be. Goofy Tobi was better than this lying bastard. If there must be a twist, Tobi=Madara was it. That's still one of the most dramatic moments in the manga. Announcing himself as Madara with lightning flashing in the distance, wearing a black hooded cloak, and a close-up of his sharingan.
> 
> Whatever. I can't wait to see how Tobi knows Madara. Hopefully, it's a great revelation but at this point I expect to   and then  .



very good insight as to why Tobi wont be Obito



(510)THIZZ said:


> lol this will be ignored(like every other FACT that's posted in here). Just stop responding to them they trolling the shit out of you.
> 
> Here's a perfect example of a troll post. Learn to spot troll post.



i made that decision in the previous thread, Part 1... i knew i would be trolled for highlighting actual facts and actual plotholes, ya'know how fandom works

Misty and Obi didnt act like this before, but my consistent posting of plotholes against their fandom has clearly turned them very sour

they have even convinced themselves im against Obito... when im just against plotholes and incongruent plot 



Tharris said:


> Yahiko and Obito died during the third great ninja war.
> Obito would've had no time to convince the Akatsuki to create themselves, because they already were.



lol another plothole


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> We all know it's much easier for Kishi to explain Kagami being Tobi vs. Obito being Tobi... Just because he's introduced 200 chapters after Tobi doesn't mean it can't be Kagami.. They are both fodder, stop saying Obito is not fodder he clearly is.... He was only used for Kakashi Gaiden it's funny how you think he isn't fodder, the guy is a scrub I never said Kagami is perfectly acceptable. I don't even think it's Kagami. Don't talk about good writing when you can't even read and comprehend the English language.
> 
> And we don't know if Kagami died, he is ASSUMED to be dead. Obito was buried by an avalanche of rocks.. What if Kagami turned out to be Obito's father or something? If Tobi was Obito the amount of plot holes he would have to do way too much explaining to cover up the plotholes.. As to other theories where there aren't as much plot holes and it would be much cleaner, better and easier to explain..
> 
> On a final note, how is changing someone who lived by the Will of Fire to become so evil to destroy his own village good writing?? That is complete shit and I along with others will be VERY disappointed if that were to happen.



Kagami has had almost no panel time whereas Obito had a clear role in the story and has emotional ties to main characters.  Why not ask why Kakashi Gaiden was there in the first place.  Notice it took place right before the 2nd story arc, and right before Tobi was introduced.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not playing this diplomatic merry go round with you
> 
> if it was just a Sharingan genjutsu he recognised, the Kyuubi wouldnt have said "You".... the Kyuubi recognised who Tobi was, thats my point



Because, once again, opinions = facts, and facts = opinions.

Why can't "you" be an inference of who Tobi was from his recognition of the jutsu?

Document with chapters and pages, please.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Kagami has had almost no panel time whereas Obito had a clear role in the story and has emotional ties to main characters.  Why not ask why Kakashi Gaiden was there in the first place.  Notice it took place right before the 2nd story arc, and right before Tobi was introduced.



You guys are so funny.. Kishi is obviously making it look like it's Obito, so that way when it's revealed it is shocking.. If it was revealed to be Obito most of the fanbase would be expecting it and it wouldn't be exciting. Anyways Obito is fodder


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> We all know it's much easier for Kishi to explain Kagami being Tobi vs. Obito being Tobi... Just because he's introduced 200 chapters after Tobi doesn't mean it can't be Kagami.. They are both fodder, stop saying Obito is not fodder he clearly is.... He was only used for Kakashi Gaiden it's funny how you think he isn't fodder, the guy is a scrub. Also  I never said Kagami is perfectly acceptable. I don't even think it's Kagami. Don't talk about good writing when you can't even read and comprehend the English language.
> 
> And we don't know if Kagami died, he is ASSUMED to be dead. Obito was buried by an avalanche of rocks.. What if Kagami turned out to be Obito's father or something? If Tobi was Obito the amount of plot holes he would have to do way too much explaining to cover up the plotholes.. As to other theories where there aren't as much plot holes and it would be much cleaner, better and easier to explain..
> 
> ...


Kagami's too easy to explain. Obito would actually be an interesting explanation. And those so called "plotholes" would be explained away.



jacamo said:


> i made that decision in the previous thread, Part 1... i knew i would be trolled for highlighting actual facts and actual plotholes, ya'know how fandom works


Except none of the things you posted were plotholes.



> Misty and Obi didnt act like this before, but my consistent posting of plotholes against their fandom has clearly turned them very sour


Bitch, please. Your shit plotholes aren't a threat to the theory at all. I'm only "sour" because you act like the Obito theory is impossible based on your assumptions that certain things are plotholes, when they obviously aren't. And when people tell you why they aren't plotholes, you ignore them. That's not how a rational mind works.



> they have even convinced themselves im against Obito... when im just against plotholes and incongruent plot


 Says the guy who keeps posting "as long as it's not Obito..." or "Yes, it's not confirmed he's Obito yet!" You do realize that if tobi is obito, Kishi has an explanation for it, right?





> lol another plothole


Could have been Madara. It's vague and unexplained so is not a plothole.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> and no, its not irrelevant because (at the time) we didnt know ANYTHING about Nagato's story for almost the entire time he was masquerading as Pain
> 
> this is identical to Tobi's situation


Really? Let's see.

Nagato was first revealed in chapter 372, page 9. At this point we didn't know anything about him. But, oh: A few pages later, it was shown that he had the Rinnegan. 

Since this happened exactly during Jiraiya's hunt for Pain, and because Konan actually commented on how Orochimaru's advice to kill her, Nagato, and Yahiko would have been useful to Jiraiya, we could infer at once that Nagato was significant and had a plot. The possibilities were quickly narrowed down to him and Yahiko in the very chapter that introduced him.

Kagami was introduced as a random Uchiha dozens of chapters ago. But even now, we still don't know anything important about him. 

Yet you think his case is exactly the same as Nagato's.


> im not playing this diplomatic merry go round with you


Concession accepted.


> if it was just a Sharingan genjutsu he recognised, the Kyuubi wouldnt have said "You"....


Ah. There it is. "_Wouldn't_ have." Says who? Was Kurama bound by some sort of law on speaking and replying?





> the Kyuubi recognised who Tobi was, thats my point


No one is saying that that's impossible, but there are other possibilities. That's my point. If you're having trouble accepting that...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Because, once again, opinions = facts, and facts = opinions.
> 
> Why can't "you" be an inference of who Tobi was from his recognition of the jutsu?
> 
> Document with chapters and pages, please.



because the word "you" refers to a person... not a jutsu 

basic language does not require chapter references

at least you havent turned into a raving lunatic


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kagami's too easy to explain.



I thought Kagami had no chance? Now you're saying it's because he would be too easy to explain. Even if it was too easy at least it would make sense.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Kagami has had almost no panel time whereas Obito had a clear role in the story and has emotional ties to main *characters.*


Obito has emotional ties to one character - Kakashi. That would seriously disappoint me after years of anticipation. The way the characters react to his unmasking will be the highlight. Naruto relying on Kakashi to identify him and then explain who he is, is not a great reveal. I was hoping for instant recognition by most people, not just Kakashi.



> Why not ask why Kakashi Gaiden was there in the first place.  Notice it took place right before the 2nd story arc, and right before Tobi was introduced.


The title itself doesn't inspire confidence. 'Gaiden' - a side story. They don't usually become main plot.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> because the word "you" refers to a person... not a jutsu
> 
> basic language does not require chapter references
> 
> at least you havent turned into a raving lunatic



That's nice.  


However, that wasn't the question.

Why can't "you" be an _inference_ from his recognition of the jutsu? I suppose a simpler way to put it would be, why can't his reference to a certain person be an inference from his recognition of the jutsu?

Once again, please document.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> because the word "you" refers to a person... not a jutsu


He could have thought Tobi was Madara because the jutsu Tobi used was similar.



Thebaxman said:


> I thought Kagami had no chance? Now you're saying it's because he would be too easy to explain. Even if it was too easy at least it would make sense.


He's easy to explain because he's a side fodder character. Kishi could just throw any old shit in. He could do it with Setsuna and Uzumaki leader and Torifu Akimichi too. It doesn't make Kagami any more likely.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He could have thought Tobi was Madara because the jutsu Tobi used was similar.



Btw, just focus on jacamo for the moment, please.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He could have thought Tobi was Madara because the jutsu Tobi used was similar.
> 
> He's easy to explain because he's a side fodder character. Kishi could just throw any old shit in. He could do it with Setsuna and Uzumaki leader and Torifu Akimichi too. It doesn't make Kagami any more likely.



Obito is a side fodder character too


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Obito is a side fodder character too


Side fodder characters don't appear in five straight chapters, have amazingly strong hidden sharingan abilities, get referenced throughout the series, and be best friends with a main character.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

im sure other people can add more, but whatever


*Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.

*Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

*Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

*Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation. 

*Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi. 

*Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.

*Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito. 

*Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born. 

*Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito. 

*Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.

*THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL

Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito 
(chapter 509 page 4)*

Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato is revealed more or less around 100 chapters AFTER Pain was first introduced... the premise will be exactly the same with Tobi in terms of how he is revealed, whoever he is


How do you know for sure that the premise will be the same? because if we go by logic then it is highly unlikely that that is the case.



> basic language - the word "you" refers to people, not jutsu



If I had a special ability to turn you into a hamster and back and only I was known to do it, then many years later, a guy in a mask turns you into a hamster and back, wouldn't you assume he was me?

Kurama most likely just mistook Tobi for Madara due to the genjutsu Tobi used on him.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> basic language - the word "you" refers to people, not jutsu



Please stop. This is not a discussion of what he was referring to, when he says "you", rather than how Kurama _deduced_ it.

Once again, your _interpretation_ isn't canon. If it is, then _document_ it with _chapters and pages_.

ps. even if it was, does that automatically make Tobi the person whom the chakra indicates?

*Tobi*



*Sasuke*


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im sure other people can add more, but whatever
> 
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi?s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> ...


After all the times people refuted these "plotholes" you still post them. What do you hope to gain? Does your mind not process the fact that people refuted these? Are you just being ignorant and ignoring it? What? I seriously don't get it.

None of the things on that list are plotholes. Tobi being Obito is far from impossible. In fact, it's the most likely. With izuna being second most likely.

Why do you not accept a possibility? Seriously, enlighten me.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre nitpicking the differences when the premise is the same
> 
> Nagato is revealed more or less around 100 chapters AFTER Pain was first introduced... the premise will be exactly the same with Tobi in terms of how he is revealed, whoever he is


Nagato became relevant almost as soon as he was revealed. During the 100-or-so chapters between his and Pain's first appearances, we didn't even know he existed. On the other hand, Kagami's relevance remains in doubt although he was introduced eons ago. 

The Tobito argument is that Kagami has no plot. Your answer is that Nagato had no plot too, while he actually had one. 

The argument doesn't hold water.


> basic language - the word "you" refers to people, not jutsu


That is correct. That's why I posted the following not long ago:





TH4N4T0S said:


> He also could have recognized the genjutsu alone, not Tobi. He said "You..." in reaction to Tobi's genjutsu. It could have meant:
> 
> 1. "You... I recognize you!",
> 2. "You... you possess those wretched eyes. Are you... Madara Uchiha?!", or
> 3. "You... that eye... this genjutsu... Who the hell are you?!"


These statements refer to people, but only the first implies that Kurama knows Tobi. Are you suggesting that the other two are impossible or somewhat contrary to reason?

Moreover, if Kurama was indeed able to identify Tobi with a very strong degree of certainty, then why hasn't he spilled it out for Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai? If it was so strongly conceivable that Kurama knew Tobi's identity, then why hasn't Kakashi or anyone asked him about it?


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

To tall my ass btw, first a 13 years old Itachi was drawn at the same height as a 20 years old Kisame, then Naruto even tall as his dad in his belly, and now Naruto a 16 years old Naruto is even tall as an xxx old Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

*jacamo Logic Kagami Plot Holes:*



*1. Tobi fought Hashirama:*
Tobi said to Kabuto that he fought Hashirama. But a Kagami around 16 wouldn't have been able to fight against someone who was considered a fairy tale like Rikudou.

*2. Personality U-Turn:*
Kagami was on Tobirama's team during the first shinobi world war. Why would someone fighting along side the Second Hokage join Madara?

*3. Too much knowledge:*
Apparently, it's impossible for an uchiha to read the stone tablet, which I established in my Obito plotholes.(You should check them out) So this means Kagami could not have possibly read it. So he couldn't have all this knowledge.

*4. Kyuubi RECOGNIZED Tobi:*
Kyuubi knew who Tobi was because he said "You!" This means he had to be someone that could have met Kurama. But Kagami would have been too young during the time when Madara attacked the village, and he wouldn't have been experienced enough at 16. I mean, it's not like we have 16 year olds pwning bijuu or anything.

*5. Danzo would have figured it out:*
Kagami and Danzo were teammates and thus knew each other personally. Danzo would have figured out that Tobi was Kagami and sensed his chakra when they met after the Five Kage summit.

*6. Tobi’s Power Level:*
There is no way a one paneled Kagami could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation.

*7. Jutsu:*
Let alone stay Danzou didn't even recognize Tobi as Kagami, but was he really that blind that he even didn't recognize his S/T jutsu? 

*8. Plot:*
uh, what plot?​


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> To tall my ass btw, first a 13 years old Itachi was drawn at the same height as a 20 years old Kisame, then Naruto even tall as his dad in his belly, and now Naruto a 16 years old Naruto is even tall as an xxx old Tobi.


How old was Itachi the first time he defeated Orochimaru? 11, was it, or 13? He was certainly very young at the time, but he didn't look much shorter than Orochimaru.


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *jacamo Logic Kagami Plot Holes:*
> 
> *1. Tobi fought Hashirama:*
> Tobi said to Kabuto that he fought Hashirama. But a Kagami around 16 wouldn't have been able to fight against someone who was considered a fairy tale like Rikudou.
> ...




*Plothole Number  6: Tobi’s Power Level*
There is no way a one paneled Kagami could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation.


*Plothole Number 7: Minato would’ve figured it out*
Kagami was a villager while Minato was the Hokage, he should have figure it out as well.

*Plothole Number 8: During Our Battle *
Theres no way a 15~ years old Kagami fought against Hashirama, let alone stay survive.

*Plothole Number 9: Too Much Knowledge*
Theres no way Kagami could have the knowledge of the RS era.

*Plothole Number 10: Danzou would have figured it out*
If Tobi was Kagami then Danzou would have figured it out when he fought against Sasuke. 

*Plothole Number 11: Plot
*uh, what plot?

My pleasure.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

It's reasonable to assume that Tobi is from Madara's generation after the infodump he gave us in chapters 397-401. Personal details about Madara plus intimate knowledge of the Uchiha and Senju.

I refuse to believe it was all an act. Obito knowing this stuff is not plausible to me... then there's the 'arm clench' - more acting I guess. Seriously, I'm shocked at how inept the writing is. Backstory helps explain character motivations and past events but if you can't trust anything a person says, what's the point?

oh, and I still don't buy that Obito can fight Minato on almost equal footing. I'm sure he'd recognize _something_ about him, instead of suspecting Madara.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> How old was Itachi the first time he defeated Orochimaru? 11, was it, or 13? He was certainly very young at the time, but he didn't look much shorter than Orochimaru.


Apparently that's a plot hole!



loool3 said:


> *Plothole Number  6: Tobi?s Power Level*
> There is no way a one paneled Kagami could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation.
> 
> 
> ...


I forgot about these.


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

*Plothole Number 12: Jutsu
*Let alone stay Danzou didn't even recognize Tobi as Kagami, but was he really that blind that he even didn't recognize his S/T jutsu?


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> It's reasonable to assume that Tobi is from Madara's generation after the infodump he gave us in chapters 397-401. Personal details about Madara plus intimate knowledge of the Uchiha and Senju.


Yes, it is reasonable. But it doesn't exclude the Obito theory as it's not impossible for Tobi to be someone from current times.



> I refuse to believe it was all an act. Obito knowing this stuff is not plausible to me... then there's the 'arm clench' - more acting I guess. Seriously, I'm shocked at how inept the writing is. Backstory helps explain character motivations and past events but if you can't trust anything a person says, what's the point?


The arm clench when he talked about izuna giving up his eyes could be because he also knows the pain of giving up an eye and having it misused(Kakashi couldn't protect Rin with it).



> oh, and I still don't buy that Obito can fight Minato on almost equal footing. I'm sure he'd recognize _something_ about him, instead of suspecting Madara.


Lol. Sharingan and chains. Not that hard, really.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 2, 2012)

can someone give us izuna plothole?
 Izuna fits perfect considering hashi's dna grants him to live more than 100 years.
Izuna has more possibility with less plotholes. right?


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> can someone give us izuna plothole?
> Izuna fits perfect considering hashi's dna grants him to live more than 100 years.
> Izuna has more possibility with less plotholes. right?


It's confirmed a few times already that he died, Madara looked sad SAD S-A-D *SAD S-A-D  sad* when he said that Izuna died, so theres no way he has been ressurected also.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It's confirmed a few times already that he died, Madara looked sad SAD S-A-D *SAD S-A-D  sad* when he said that Izuna died, so theres no way he has been ressurected also.


That's not conclusive proof that he's dead. If Madara knows Tobi I would expect him to be evasive - especially if he is Izuna.

Obito has the same problem - he is presumed dead - and until proven otherwise that remains true. We really don't know if they recovered his body or not, but Kakashi visiting Obito's memorial seems sincere, like he knows for a fact that he died.


----------



## Xin (Aug 2, 2012)

Look at his black hair.. Tobi is obviously Goku and his Power Level is over 9000


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died?


It took chuunin-level/post-time-skip Naruto less than 1 or 2  years to become a perfect sage who was said to have surpassed both  Minato and Jiraiya. 

To assume that there are no other methods of quick strength progression is simply unreasonable. 


> That’s just not feasible.


And "no way" became "not feasible." Don't you trust your own opinion?


> *Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
> "Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.


Nagato and Gaara experienced personality u-turns at light speed. 


> *Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
> "Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.


Tobi was probably speaking as Madara. The question "Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" could have been what Madara would have asked. The "I" in the question also possibly referred to Madara, since Tobi was possibly acting as Madara.


> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will.


The argument itself says that Kurama _possibly _knows who Tobi is. That in itself implies the existence of other possibilities. See my earlier posts for more details. 


> The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.


Kurama disagrees:

"Naruto, I've watched everything you've done thus far."

The outside world is not imperceivable to him.


> *Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
> Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.


Itachi appeared quite tall when he first defeated Orochimaru. He was a kid at the time. 

Let's say it's been revealed that Tobi isn't Obito:

Jacamo: See! I told you Tobi couldn't have been Obito!
NF: Could you give us one reason why?
Jacamo: Obito wasn't tall enough!
NF: .....................................................



> *Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
> If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.


Hiruzen hadn't realized that the "4th Kazekage" during the chuunin exams was Orochimaru until Orochimaru called him "Sarutobi-sensei."



> *Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
> "This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.


That's nice. It's not a pointless argument. Still, you can know a person (his life story, actions, plans, etc.) even without ever having interacted with him. As much as I'd want to believe that Tobi and Madara worked together hand in hand, we simply can't be sure that they did.



> *Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
> Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.


1. A past meeting between Tobi and Hashirama is not a necessary condition for Tobi's ability to compare Naruto to Hashirama. 

2. The linchpin of the comparison was the presence of the Will of Fire in Naruto and Hashirama, which is known to be the latter's philosophy. Tobi only had to have known what the Will of Fire was.



> *Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.


Look -- we didn't know at the time who the person in the coffin was. Had Kishimoto made Tobi reveal that he wasn't Madara that early, the revelation that the coffin contained Madara would have had a much, much weaker impact to us, the readers. Kishimoto isn't so stupid that he would waste his literary devices so easily.

Nice try.



> *Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
> It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.


Apparently we learned them in a few chapters. "Plothole Number 10" an opinion at best. 



> *THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL
> 
> Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito
> (chapter 509 page 4)*
> ...


Again, Tobi was probably speaking as Madara. He had been taking credit for Madara's deeds until only recently

It seems your so-called plot holes and opinions are nothing more than unanswered questions.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 2, 2012)

*[100% PROVED] Tobi is either Obito or somebody else*

The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,

Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.

Therefore, Tobi is either Obito or somebody else! This logic is inescapable.


*Spoiler*: _Well..._ 




He could be *both* Obito *and* someone else, I suppose.


----------



## Black Mirror (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


----------



## Draffut (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Tobi is 'nobody'  He is simply the Zetsu/Hashirama goo mass given sentience and a Sharingan.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


You managed to combine every theory out there. Genius.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


It could be a red herring. Kishi's writing is predictable, but the blatant hints in this chapter are too 'in your face' even for him. He must know about the Tobito theory so why not use it as misdirection? Everyone is convinced that he's Obito and then Kishi pulls a fast one, while grinning smugly.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 2, 2012)

Be prepare for the merge. Sick of many tobi theories already


----------



## Vash (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Tobi is either Obito or somebody else!



That's a nice fanfic you got there


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


WRONG! He could be Obito AND someone else!


----------



## NinjaWannabe (Aug 2, 2012)

If someone can tell me how Kagami survived the Uchiha wipe out then I'm sure it's possible but totally unlikely. Konoha knows all the Uchiha who are alive since they were watching them closely for years. If Kagami was not confirmed dead then he would still be classed as a missing ninja. He would pop up in the bingo books. He would be known throughout the ninja world as an Uchiha still living. Wouldn't someone have mentioned it, or at least told Sasuke that there was another missing Uchiha apart from his brother Itachi?

The only Uchiha character to be killed and not be recovered is Obito as far as I'm aware. Of course I'm sure someone will try to tell me different. Kishimoto is only going to have a character who is confirmed dead be brought back through Edo Tensei. Tobi is not an Edo Tensei summoning. If not using the Edo Tensei then the characters death would have to be slightly ambiguous for Kishi to bring him back to the story alive and well. Since Obito is the only Uchiha we have seen pretty much die, but not actually die completely, he is my vote for who Tobi is. 

Kagami would make for the worst character introduction ever. No back story. Nothing relevant to the main characters. Just 'Hi, Obito was my son and I'm pissed' wow what an amazing story that would be... if I was three. If it is Kagami I probably stop reading. Well I say that but I love reading Naruto too much... probably.


----------



## Zelavour (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


So Tobi is someone? I didnt know!


----------



## Syntaxis (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Or, he is in fact nobody. Just Madara's Eternal Kage Bunshin or something silly


----------



## Star★Platinum (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Solid as fuck theory.


----------



## Khazzar (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Only a couple of weeks ago you said he was Orochimaru.


----------



## Black Mirror (Aug 2, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> Only a couple of weeks ago you said he was Orochimaru.



Didn't you now that orochimaru is also somebody? and if tobi=somebody and orochimaru=somebody it means that tobi=orochimaru.


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Tobi is an artificial intelligence created by an ancient civilization.

that base Ei

Thus he doesn't have a name and isn't Obito or somebody else, but something.


----------



## UrBusted (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


In what universe can Tobi be *Obito* and *someone else* at the same time?!?!?!

What are you smokin'?

Can I have some?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Stop fucking around, Marsala. We all know you're Tobi by now.


----------



## Velocity (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> That's nice. It's not a pointless argument. Still, you can know a person (his life story, actions, plans, etc.) even without ever having interacted with him. As much as I'd want to believe that Tobi and Madara worked together hand in hand, we simply can't be sure that they did.



Actually... This part is wrong. Kishimoto himself said that Tobi and Madara have met and Madara spoke of a partner (whom Kabuto implied he worked under or with), the only other person in the whole world being interested in the Mugen Tsukuyomi plan being Tobi. So Tobi and Madara met, they share the same goal and Tobi clearly intended to have Nagato use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara properly (Madara even said as much himself).

Whoever Tobi is, he's very close to Madara.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, Madara is 179cm. Tobi is 175cm, making him 4 centimeters shorter than Madara.



Uhm no.

People who read this manga back in the days understand that Tobi got Madaras face.

The simple reason being Kishimoto have already showen us Madaras flashbacks, and was willing to show us Tobis face showing an aged Madara.

Im not saying Obito cant be Tobi, if you read chapter 510 something is hiding beneath Tobis right face. As loool3 pointed out, it looks younger. 

So like, they saved Obito and his eye and replaced his half body with Madara for some unknown reason is the closest i can get into.

Doesnt aged people decrease in CM?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


Nice theory. Best one I've read so far.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


And so? We're still at the start line.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 2, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Actually... This part is wrong. Kishimoto himself said that Tobi and Madara have met and Madara spoke of a partner (whom Kabuto implied he worked under or with), the only other person in the whole world being interested in the Mugen Tsukuyomi plan being Tobi. So Tobi and Madara met, they share the same goal and Tobi clearly intended to have Nagato use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara properly (Madara even said as much himself).
> 
> Whoever Tobi is, he's very close to Madara.



kishi said 'they know each other", that hardly cements that they have worked together or have the same goal


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 2, 2012)

No, the manga evidence (chapter 597, page 3) clearly indicates that Tobi is neither Obito or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Actually... This part is wrong. Kishimoto himself said that Tobi and Madara have met


What I know is that Kishimoto said . Knowing doesn't mean meeting. Did he ever state or even imply that they've met?


> and Madara spoke of a partner (whom Kabuto implied he worked under or with),


I'm not sure what you mean. When was Tobi described by Madara as a partner with whom he had worked very closely? Here? If that's it, nothing in that page conclusively suggests that they once met.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> What I know is that Kishimoto said . Knowing doesn't mean meeting. Did he ever state or even imply that they've met?


Kishimoto said this:


> Both ninja know one another. What kind of relationship do they have? Well, that will be gradually revealed as the story progresses!!


A "relationship" does imply that they've met and interacted quite a bit.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> A "relationship" does imply that they've met and interacted quite a bit.


No. It's a question on what kind of relationship they have. Are they partners? Is Tobi his _successor_? Was Tobi a servant whose service or creation was once commissioned by Madara when he was alive? There are several possibilities, and there's no reason to single out the ones that necessitate a meeting between Madara and Tobi.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> No. It's a question on what kind of relationship they have. Are they partners? Is Tobi his _successor_? Was Tobi a servant whose service or creation was once commissioned by Madara when he was alive? There are several possibilities, and there's no reason to single out the ones that necessitate a meeting between Madara and Tobi.


You might be overthinking it. When someone says that they know each other and have a relationship, it usually means that they've met.

I'll take his statement at face value for the time being.


----------



## Undertaker (Aug 2, 2012)

Now, let`s merge over 9000 threads into this one


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> You might be overthinking it. When someone says that they know each other and have a relationship, it usually means that they've met.
> 
> I'll take his statement at face value for the time being.



I think what Th4N means is that it's not actually saying they have a relationship, it's a question meaning how do they know each other. It's not a direct answer


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> You might be overthinking it. When someone says that they know each other and have a relationship, it usually means that they've met.


Kishimoto didn't say they have a relationship. What are you talking about? 

There are two thieves. You know nothing more than the fact that they know each other. Then someone asks you: "What kind of relationship do they have?" 

Does this automatically amount to saying that they have a relationship? I don't think so. For all we know, the answer could be "No relationship." 

Does this imply by default that they have a relationship beyond knowing each other? No. 

Is it reasonable to assume that they've met each other somehow? Certainly not.


> I'll take his statement at face value for the time being.


If that's what suits you.


----------



## takL (Aug 2, 2012)

i bet in the next chap/a couple of chaps the mask breakes and its obito. obito theorists go 'I toldya' and the forum goes apeshit
then the following chap says its not eactly/simply obito. non-obito theorists go 'I toldya' and the forum goes apeshit.


----------



## Black Mirror (Aug 2, 2012)

takL said:


> i bet in the next chap/a couple of chaps the mask breakes and its obito. obito theorists go 'I toldya' and the forum goes apeshit
> then the following chap says its not eactly/simply obito. non-obito theorists go 'I toldya' and the forum goes apeshit.



And then he says, that he is Naruto from another dimension and we get 'I jizzed' threads and a huge load of apeshit in the forum~


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Kishimoto didn't say they have a relationship. What are you talking about?
> 
> There are two thieves. You know nothing more than the fact that they know each other. Then someone asks you: "What kind of relationship do they have?"
> 
> ...


Kishi said Tobi and Madara know each other, and have some sort of relationship. Sure, no one knows exactly what that is yet but you can't discount the simple explanation - that they met. I'm not going to read more into this than what's there. The Moon's Eye plan was originally Madara's, so it stands to reason that Tobi planned it with him or acquired/stole it somehow. They could even be enemies.

Anyway, if Kishi is true to his word we should have answers in the next few weeks. Not too long to wait.


----------



## Suzuku (Aug 2, 2012)

Should've been clear Tobi was Obito last chapter when he commented on Kakashi's past.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> The Moon's Eye plan was originally Madara's, so it stands to reason that Tobi planned it with him or acquired/stole it somehow.



I'm not doubting this, but where was it stated that the Moon's eye plan was originally Madara's? Mind showing me the scan of where it said that?


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm not doubting this, but where was it stated that the Moon's eye plan was originally Madara's? Mind showing me the scan of where it said that?


He didn't call it the Moon's Eye plan, just Infinite Tsukuyomi.

I'll try to find the page though, my memory could be fuzzy!


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> and have some sort of relationship.


Again, he did not say that. 


> Sure, no one knows exactly what that is yet but you can't discount the simple explanation - that they met.


I'm not discounting it, but I think it's debatable whether its simplicity is good enough a reason to choose it over other possible explanations. 

As far as this issue is concerned, I always stick to what I believe to be the best answer: I don't know.


> Anyway, if Kishi is true to his word we should have answers in the next few weeks. Not too long to wait.


I agree.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> That's not conclusive proof that he's dead. If Madara knows Tobi I would expect him to be evasive - especially if he is Izuna.


 What would have been the point of even bringing his brother up in the first place ten, if he didn't want people to know he's Tobi?



> Obito has the same problem - he is presumed dead - and until proven otherwise that remains true. We really don't know if they recovered his body or not, but Kakashi visiting Obito's memorial seems sincere, like he knows for a fact that he died.


We know for a fact that his body wasn't found as his name was engraved on the Memorial Stone.



Velocity said:


> Actually... This part is wrong. Kishimoto himself said that Tobi and Madara have met and Madara spoke of a partner (whom Kabuto implied he worked under or with), the only other person in the whole world being interested in the Mugen Tsukuyomi plan being Tobi. So Tobi and Madara met, they share the same goal and Tobi clearly intended to have Nagato use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara properly (Madara even said as much himself).
> 
> Whoever Tobi is, he's very close to Madara.


Well, nothing ever said that they were _very_ close.



Escargon said:


> Uhm no.
> 
> People who read this manga back in the days understand that Tobi got Madaras face.
> 
> ...


wut.

No. Sure Kishi showed us Tobi's face when he was telling Madara's backstory, but that doesn't mean that Tobi has part of Madara's face. Tobi's face resembles both Madara and Obito. So Kishi could pass it off as Madara's, even if it wasn't.

Especially since that eye crease under Tobi's eye that looks like Madara's could just be one of the scars from the boulder. Take that out along with the rest of the scars and BAM, Obito!



son_michael said:


> kishi said 'they know each other", that hardly cements that they have worked together or have the same goal


Actually, it kinda does, lol.



Easley said:


> Kishi said Tobi and Madara know each other, and have some sort of relationship. Sure, no one knows exactly what that is yet but you can't discount the simple explanation - that they met. I'm not going to read more into this than what's there. The Moon's Eye plan was originally Madara's, so it stands to reason that Tobi planned it with him or acquired/stole it somehow. They could even be enemies.
> 
> Anyway, if Kishi is true to his word we should have answers in the next few weeks. Not too long to wait.


This is true. But I doubt they're enemies. Well, they probably are now because Tobi betrayed him.


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

The revealing is probably next week since we get again an ''incandescent colored page''.


----------



## Easley (Aug 2, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm not doubting this, but where was it stated that the Moon's eye plan was originally Madara's? Mind showing me the scan of where it said that?


I found this.

too late,

It doesn't state that the Moon's Eye plan was originally his, but Madara certainly knows about it. Infinite Tsukuyomi.


----------



## eepdoodle (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


So Tobi is definitely a person? Well then, that eliminates plants, animals, vitamins and minerals. That narrows things down a bunch! Finally a theory that makes sense.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

I just want to resurrect the following issue, if it's still appropriate. Kishimoto's movie transcript labels Tobi as "Madara(Obito)." Does this mean anything? 


Or could this be some form of red herring?


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> I just want to resurrect the following issue, if it's still appropriate. Kishimoto's movie transcript labels Tobi as "Madara(Obito)." Does this mean anything?
> 
> 
> Or could this be some form of red herring?


Well, apparently, Tobi isn't unmasked and revealed as Obito in the AU.

So, logically, what Kishi wrote had to mean something, so it was likely he was just putting Madara(Obito) in the manuscript as a way to seperate the two "Madara"s. 

So, this is a huge hint that the real Tobi is canonically Obito.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, apparently, Tobi isn't unmasked and revealed as Obito in the AU.
> 
> So, logically, what Kishi wrote had to mean something, so it was likely he was just putting Madara(Obito) in the manuscript as a way to seperate the two "Madara"s.
> 
> So, this is a huge hint that the real Tobi is canonically Obito.


It does appear to be a hint, but I'm not ready to discount the possibility that Kishimoto is planning to pull a fast one on us. Tobi could actually be a bizarre amalgam of Obito's head, Izuna's cells, White-Zetsu limbs, Madara's memories, and the corrupt remnants of Obito's original personality. Since he's a complicated mixture of everything, his confused mental state has fallen into the delusion that he is "nobody."


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> It does appear to be a hint, but I'm not ready to discount the possibility that Kishimoto is planning to pull a fast one on us. Tobi could actually be a bizarre amalgam of Obito's head, Izuna's cells, White-Zetsu limbs, Madara's memories, and the corrupt remnants of Obito's original personality. Since he's a complicated mixture of everything, his confused mental state has fallen into the delusion that he is "nobody."


o_____O


Uhmmmm, well, uh... I think that's a little too extreme, lol.


He most likely just had a bunch of shit happen to him and now he wants to forget his past and he's trying to convince himself he's No One now because his Madara act was ruined.

This parallels him with Naruto. Naruto was in the beginning trying to prove to everyone that he had an actual identity of his own and wasn't just a demon fox.

Tobi wants to make himself believe that he's someone else and is trying to erase his real identity from his mind.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

Easley said:


> I found this.
> 
> keeping up
> 
> It doesn't state that the Moon's Eye plan was originally his, but Madara certainly knows about it. Infinite Tsukuyomi.



Oh yeah, that page. Now I remember. I think it's Tobi plan and Madara is just going along with it.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


No. Completely wrong. The manga is going to be canceled before then and Tobi will forever be nobody.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Oh yeah, that page. Now I remember. I think it's Tobi plan and Madara is just going along with it.


But why would it be Tobi's? Tobi seemed to be under Madara in the plan. Besides, Madara, being most likely older than Tobi, probably would have been the one to come up with it in the first place.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> o_____O
> 
> 
> Uhmmmm, well, uh... I think that's a little too extreme, lol.
> ...


The mixture option is just one of my little fanfics. Hah. Anyway, because I have faith in Kishimoto, I don't really care which theory prevails. I'm fine with any option as long as it works. I'm just here to try knocking some sense into those who claim to have "debunked" the Tobito theory using their vaunted plot holes.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 2, 2012)

*Kishi caught you in his genjutsu; Tobito is an illusion...*

Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.

We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints? 

TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


What's it called, Koyo-crappy-writing?


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 2, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> What's it called, Koyo-crappy-writing?



TrollKishi Tensei actually lol


----------



## Danzio (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


You know what will be disappointing? If it turned out to be not him.

The other candidates are too dull, unless its Tobirama's evil brother.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 2, 2012)

I think the biggest troll kishi: never show Tobi's face, he will die like a masked man, like Jack of blades from Fable.


----------



## Mr. 0 (Aug 2, 2012)

ovanz said:


> I think the biggest troll kishi: never show Tobi's face, he will die like a masked man, like Jack of blades from Fable.


Or he'll be unmasked post death and look just like Madara because of PS/zetsu goo. Then Naruto will have to enter a genjutsu to find out who he really is in order to stop the trigger of an anti proton bijuu dama capable of destroying the world hidden underground that will be triggered once the juubi steps on a plate. It will turn out that Tobi is some nameless uchiha kid subtly mentioned once that ended up taking the rap for Minato who stole a novelty headband from some old store lady, and was declared dead as a joke by his uchiha friends (hence why he wanted to wipe them out).


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious





Sure, Minato being Naruto's father was so difficult to figure out.


----------



## ShadowsX (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


"It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan. No one cared who I was until I put on the mask." Said by Bane
So Tobi is Bane


----------



## Tharris (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> I just want to resurrect the following issue, if it's still appropriate. Kishimoto's movie transcript labels Tobi as "Madara(Obito)." Does this mean anything?
> 
> 
> Or could this be some form of red herring?



Apparently "There was a translation for that ages back, it says Madara several times, and has different people in the brackets every time. Not just Obito."

I have no source for this, because I read it on another forum post, but that seems to be the accepted rebuttal on that thread.


----------



## Hero of Shadows (Aug 2, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The latest chapter, with its increasingly strong connection between Kakashi's and Tobi's eye powers, hints that Tobi is Obito,
> 
> Alternatively, it could all be one huge red herring and Tobi is someone else.
> 
> ...


The Logic is strong in the OP!


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Nagato became relevant almost as soon as he was revealed. During the 100-or-so chapters between his and Pain's first appearances, we didn't even know he existed. On the other hand, Kagami's relevance remains in doubt although he was introduced eons ago.
> 
> The Tobito argument is that Kagami has no plot. Your answer is that Nagato had no plot too, while he actually had one.
> 
> ...



Pain's identity is revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up

Tobi's identity will be revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up

like i said, youre nitpicking... the argument holds plenty of water



basic language says they are impossible



Easley said:


> I found this.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> It doesn't state that the Moon's Eye plan was originally his, but Madara certainly knows about it. Infinite Tsukuyomi.



they definitely know each other - "this is HIS doing"

and they were definitely working together as they have been working towards on the same plan - Infinite Tsukiyomi


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Pain's identity is revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up
> 
> Tobi's identity will be revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up
> 
> like i said, youre nitpicking... the argument holds plenty of water


No it doesn't. We knew things about Nagato before he was revealed as Pain. We don't know anything about Kagami presently. 





> basic language says they are impossible


Madara used a special genjutsu to control Kurama. Tobi used a similar jutsu so Kurama mistook him for Madara. "You... Madara?!" 

It's not that hard to comprehend. Basic language says that it's possible.

Basic knowledge says that different words apply in different contexts in different situations.

Even the most basic form of language can tell you that.

You are denying normal rationality and being completely unreasonable in order to preserve just one "plothole" even though it isn't even a plothole.

You say you're not against Obito, but only against incongruent plot. So why is it that you are so intent on calling everything plotholes and denying logic even when people show why those things are not plotholes. If you are just against incongruent plot, and people give evidence to show that it's not incongruent, shouldn't you accept the possibility? 

The current evidence shows that you are against Tobi being Obito and deny every possibility people give you and every explanation for your so called "plotholes".

Sure you could say that the possibilities aren't satisfying to you, but just because you don't like the possibilities, doesn't mean that they aren't there.

You don't have to like or support the Obito theory, but you should at least accept it as a possibility.


Please try being more rational and accept a possibility. It will make the debates go alot smoother. 

Thanks.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Pain's identity is revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up


During which we didn't know of Nagato's existence.


> Tobi's identity will be revealed after he has been masquerading as the enemy for X amount of chapters and tearing shit up


And we've known of Kagami's existence since Danzo's flashback. 


> like i said, youre nitpicking... the argument holds plenty of water


Sure, if you think a drop of water is plenty.


> basic language says they are impossible


Common sense says that they aren't.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 2, 2012)

I see a lot of people coming around to the idea that Tobi could be using Obito's eye, but still hesitating when it comes to thinking it could be more than that.

But here's the thing.

If Tobi has Obito's eye, then there must have been a way to get the body.

If there was a way to get the body, there surely was some way to save him.

And if there is a way to save him... well, you see where I'm going with this.

If you accept one possibility you open the door to the rest.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!



NOOO, Tobito can't be a legit theory!!  We refuse to believe despite all the very obvious evidence!!!


The only thing worse than pairing fans are anti-Tobito theorists.  So much denial everywhere.  It's plain as day he's connected to Obito *somehow*.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> During which we didn't know of Nagato's existence.
> And we've known of Kagami's existence since Danzo's flashback.
> Sure, if you think a drop of water is plenty.
> Common sense says that they aren't.



concession accepted



First Tsurugi said:


> I see a lot of people coming around to the idea that Tobi could be using Obito's eye, but still hesitating when it comes to thinking it could be more than that.
> 
> But here's the thing.
> 
> ...



oh i definitely think Obito is connected

Tobi is his dad, Kagami


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh i definitely think Obito is connected
> 
> Tobi is his dad, Kagami



And why do you think that?

Personally I kind of like the idea that Tobi and Shisui were brothers, but there's really nothing that suggests either outcome.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 2, 2012)

I see no reason to blatantly accept Tobi as Obito. Even if you somehow explain the Tobi = Obito plot holes, that doesn't make that specific explanation true. It simply becomes a rescuing device. Tobi = Obito may be true, but that plot hole explanation may not.
This goes for any "Tobi =" theories, as there are always 1 theory that explains certain aspects about Tobi's ID better. That includes impossible theories, ie Tobi = Fugaku (Now I hope Tobi indeed isn't Fugaku as it would make me look rather silly ).

Common sense once told us Tobi = Danzou. Common sense once told us Tobi = Madara.
Don't overestimate common sense when it comes to Tobi's ID. It could be a trick from Kishi.

I personally don't think Tobi = Obito (mind), or Tobi = Kagami. In any case, there will be new information that makes Tobi's ID make sense. As long as it works I'm happy, but something awesome would be awesome.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 2, 2012)

I can't recall a time when it was ever "common sense" to believe Tobi was Danzou.

Other than that I agree.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 2, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I can't recall a time when it was ever "common sense" to believe Tobi was Danzou.
> 
> Other than that I agree.



Common sense is a rather loose term when it commes to Tobi's ID. At some point Tobi = Danzou made a lot of sense.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 2, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> And why do you think that?



the father-son theme akin to Kakashi


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


As long as he is not Izuna I dont care who he is.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> I see no reason to blatantly accept Tobi as Obito. Even if you somehow explain the Tobi = Obito plot holes, that doesn't make that specific explanation true. It simply becomes a rescuing device. Tobi = Obito may be true, but that plot hole explanation may not.


Of course it doesn't mean that the specific plothole explanation is true, but it also shows that there are possible explanations for the so called "plotholes".


> This goes for any "Tobi =" theories, as there are always 1 theory that explains certain aspects about Tobi's ID better. That includes impossible theories, ie Tobi = Fugaku (Now I hope Tobi indeed isn't Fugaku as it would make me look rather silly ).


Fugaku doesn't explain anything about Tobi's ID better at all. Neither does Kagami.



> Common sense once told us Tobi = Danzou.


When was that? 





> Common sense once told us Tobi = Madara.


50/50 on this. having the mask still on 24/7 raised alot of suspicion. But yes, the overall percentage of people believed that Tobi was Madara.


> Don't overestimate common sense when it comes to Tobi's ID. It could be a trick from Kishi.


I don't believe Kishi has ever tried trick us into thinking Tobi was Danzo. The Madara thing wasn't really a trick either, it was a flat out lie.



> I personally don't think Tobi = Obito (mind), or Tobi = Kagami. In any case, there will be new information that makes Tobi's ID make sense. As long as it works I'm happy, but something awesome would be awesome.


Who do you think he is anyway?

Overall, there is, in my opinion, alot of reason to believe Tobi=Obito. Especially considering all the established themes and parallels in this manga, Tobi's abilities and outlook, his actions around Kakashi, and Kishi's writing style.

I'm not trying to force everyone to believe it. But I'm just saying that there is, in my opinion, a reason to strongly believe that Tobi=Obito.


----------



## Summers (Aug 2, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


No worries, its not gonna happen. Though the reveal will be disappointing for everyone who participated in the rabid speculation. I have said No to everything, all options I have seen.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> At some point Tobi = Danzou made a lot of sense.



Um, no it didn't. Tobi = Danzo never made sense.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 2, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the father-son theme akin to Kakashi


Perhaps that would be fine, if Kishimoto could make it work.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 2, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ...but it also shows that there are possible explanations for the so called "plotholes".



That is what a rescuing device is.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Fugaku doesn't explain anything about Tobi's ID better at all. Neither does Kagami.



Do you assume I meant Fugaku explains anything better that Obito?
No, I obviously took a bad example to make a point. It depends what theories you compare.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When was that?
> ...
> I don't believe Kishi has ever tried trick us into thinking Tobi was Danzo. The Madara thing wasn't really a trick either, it was a flat out lie.



The very fact that Tobi = Madara was a lie is a trick from Kishi.

A lot of people thought Danzou was Tobi, don't you remember? It also somewhat made sense.

Before the Sasuke vs Danzou fight, The Tobi = Danzou theory still lived in some vague way. Kishi also introduced Danzou and Tobi at the same time. This was not a coincidence I think.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Who do you think he is anyway?
> 
> Overall, there is, in my opinion, alot of reason to believe Tobi=Obito. Especially considering all the established themes and parallels in this manga, Tobi's abilities and outlook, his actions around Kakashi, and Kishi's writing style.
> 
> I'm not trying to force everyone to believe it. But I'm just saying that there is, in my opinion, a reason to strongly believe that Tobi=Obito.



I don't deny that Tobi is Obito. I agree there are good reasons to beleve it. Considering the Kakashi flasback and the recent chapters only, it screams Obito. The whole picture does not.

Obito fitting as a counterpart villain to Naruto works, but Obito only representing Naruto in a different era works perfectly as well. The latter is already true if you remove the "only" part.

Who do I think he is? Do I have to think he is anybody? Maybe he indeed is "nobody". Don't get me wrong, I think he is somebody. I haven't settled yet on who he most likely is. That's all.

Edit:


HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Um, no it didn't. Tobi = Danzo never made sense.


The fact that he indeed isn't Danzou doesn't make it true that it once was plausible.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> That is what a rescuing device is.


No, I call it defending a theory and showing that what people think are "plotholes" actually aren't.





> Do you assume I meant Fugaku explains anything better that Obito?
> No, I obviously took a bad example to make a point. It depends what theories you compare.


The only ones that would actually explain Tobi well are Obito and Izuna. Even Izuna probably wouldn't make sense.





> The very fact that Tobi = Madara was a lie is a trick from Kishi.


What I meant was, he wasn't just hinting at a certain character. With Madara, Tobi outright stated it. It's a bit different.



> A lot of people thought Danzou was Tobi, don't you remember? It also somewhat made sense.


Just because some people thought it doesn't mean it made any sense. I mean, right when Tobi first met up with Deidara in that forest area, right after that, we got a panel of Danzo in an entirely different place. It was obvious from the beginning that they weren't the same person.

The Danzo theory was never plausible to begin with.



> Before the Sasuke vs Danzou fight, The Tobi = Danzou theory still lived in some vague way. Kishi also introduced Danzou and Tobi at the same time. This was not a coincidence I think.


Tobi didn't even look like Danzo at all. Besides, the eyeshape was different which automatically disproved the theory.



> Who do I think he is? Do I have to think he is anybody? Maybe he indeed is "nobody". Don't get me wrong, I think he is somebody. I haven't settled yet on who he most likely is. That's all.


Oh, alright.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 2, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> I see no reason to blatantly accept Tobi as Obito. Even if you somehow explain the Tobi = Obito plot holes, that doesn't make that specific explanation true. It simply becomes a rescuing device. Tobi = Obito may be true, but that plot hole explanation may not.
> This goes for any "Tobi =" theories, as there are always 1 theory that explains certain aspects about Tobi's ID better. That includes impossible theories, ie Tobi = Fugaku (Now I hope Tobi indeed isn't Fugaku as it would make me look rather silly ).
> 
> Common sense once told us Tobi = Danzou. Common sense once told us Tobi = Madara.
> ...



Common Sense never said Tobi=Danzo. Trust me, I've been around for a while.
Deductive reasoning HOWEVER did say it was a POSSIBILITY for a while. Especially with that teleporting ability in a world where shadow clones was possible


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> The fact that he indeed isn't Danzou doesn't make it true that it once was plausible.



No. It was never plausible. How can it be plausible anyway? Tobi was Danzo when clearly Danzo was already a living man. There can't be two Danzo's.


----------



## KingofVegetables (Aug 2, 2012)

honestly, i think its gonna be someone totally unexpected and none of the people we've guessed so far. Or it will be someone the characters recognize & then we'll get some long ass backstory, but that would be kinda defeating the purpose of the 'big' revelation.


----------



## NW (Aug 2, 2012)

all i know is it can't be kagami......

too many plotholes.......


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 2, 2012)

KingofVegetables said:


> honestly, i think its gonna be someone totally unexpected and none of the people we've guessed so far. Or it will be someone the characters recognize & then we'll get some long ass backstory, but that would be kinda defeating the purpose of the 'big' revelation.



No. Tobi *has* to be someone that we've already seen and guessed. It can't be a new character. The mask would be pointless then.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I see a lot of people coming around to the idea that Tobi could be using Obito's eye, but still hesitating when it comes to thinking it could be more than that.
> 
> But here's the thing.
> 
> ...



That would mean that Tobi and Obito are two different people and that Obito would have no eyes. What are you trying to say?

Why would you save him if he has no eyes left? Fucking dumb.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

KingofVegetables said:


> honestly, i think its gonna be someone totally unexpected and none of the people we've guessed so far. Or it will be someone the characters recognize & then we'll get some long ass backstory, but that would be kinda defeating the purpose of the 'big' revelation.


No. It's pretty obvious that we'll get Obito's backstory. We need to find out how he became like this, no matter who he is. it wouldn't make sense to reveal Tobi's identity and not tell us his backstory.





			
				ceralux said:
			
		

> That would mean that Tobi and Obito are two different people and that Obito would have no eyes. What are you trying to say?
> 
> Why would you save him if he has no eyes left? Fucking dumb.


You're not getting what he was trying to say.

And what do you mean dumb? It's not. he still had one eye left. It's pretty evident that only Tobi's right eye was originally his anyway. The one he used against Konan was transplanted. So was the Rinnegan obviously.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

TheMusicTensei said:


> im gonna be cracking up when tobi looks kinda like yamato but with obitos sharingan and nagato's rinnegan.


Are you saying that tobi is Yamato's brother or something?!


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Are you saying that tobi is Yamato's brother or something?!



Better than being Obito.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, I call it defending a theory and showing that what people think are "plotholes" actually aren't.



As long as you don't have what must within every reasonable doubt be considered canon fact, making theories to defend a view *is* a rescuing device. It's not meant to be negative. People do this based on world views as well.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Just because some people thought it doesn't mean it made any sense. I mean, right when Tobi first met up with Deidara in that forest area, right after that, we got a panel of Danzo in an entirely different place. It was obvious from the beginning that they weren't the same person.
> 
> The Danzo theory was never plausible to begin with.
> 
> ...



Come on... It's given, at the time Tobi and Danzou was introduced there wasn't much background information to suggest Danzou = Tobi. But you can't bring arguments like hair, eye shape into this. They are way to vague. And panels next to each other, even when suggested, don't have to be around the same time. There are a lot of bad reading when it comes to time flow. If you read a comic assuming everything is chronologically, neatly fixed by panel, unless blatantly suggested otherwise, you will in many cases run in to seemingly nonsensical order of events.

I thought it was obvious that Tobi = Danzou once was plausible. Many people thought so at a time. Seriously, you can't be that ignorant to overlook every suggestion that Tobi was Danzou.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Better than being Obito.



i know... there are just too many plotholes


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Better than being Obito.


What problem do you have exactly with the Obito theory?

I don't see why people are so against the most fun, interesting, and logical outcome of Tobi's identity.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Your reaction when it's revealed will be one of the best!






TheMusicTensei said:


> I'm saying yamato is an experiment with the 1st's d n a and tobi has that same d n a aka zetsu d n a too so why not they have a connection? hmmm?


Pretty anti-climactic.

The mask comes off and it's some random face?

I get what you're saying but from a storytelling standpoint it just wouldn't make sense.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What problem do you have exactly with the Obito theory?
> 
> I don't see why people are so against the most fun, interesting, and logic outcome of Tobi's identity.
> 
> ...



Because there's no evidence to support why Obito would have such a power growth or gain such an enormous intel on Konoha's history. Absolutely nothing. Just Tobito theorists stupid guesses that make no sense.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> As long as you don't have what must within every reasonable doubt be considered canon fact, making theories to defend a view *is* a rescuing device. It's not meant to be negative. People do this based on world views as well.


Oh, I see where you're coming from now.





> Come on... It's given, at the time Tobi and Danzou was introduced there wasn't much background information to suggest Danzou = Tobi. But you can't bring arguments like hair, eye shape into this. They are way to vague. And panels next to each other, even when suggested, don't have to be around the same time. There are a lot of bad reading when it comes to time flow. If you read a comic assuming everything is chronologically, neatly fixed by panel, unless blatantly suggested otherwise, you will in many cases run in to seemingly nonsensical order of events.
> 
> I thought it was obvious that Tobi = Danzou once was plausible. Many people thought so at a time. Seriously, you can't be that ignorant to overlook every suggestion that Tobi was Danzou.


Sorry, Dude. I just don't see it.



jacamo said:


> i know... there are just too many plotholes


How does having plotholes(which it doesn't) affect how awesome Tobi being Obito is.

Kagami wouldn't be interesting at all. We don't know anything about him.  

Besides, Kagami has too many plotholes. And the ones HE has are REAL.





ceralux said:


> Because there's no evidence to support why Obito would have such a power growth or gain such an enormous intel on Konoha's history. Absolutely nothing. Just Tobito theorists stupid guesses that make no sense.




Awakens MS. Learns stuff from Madara. Reads more off the tablet at the massacre. And with Nagato.

MS jutsu is S/T. Not that hard to master since it's an eye technique and Tobi pretty much only uses that.

It's not that hard to comprehend if you try being rational.

Don't call something stupid unless you know the full argument for it.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

we dont know enough about Kagami for him to have any plotholes


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> we dont know enough about Kagami for him to have any plotholes


the plotholes are right in the manga and you still deny them!


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Because there's no evidence to support why Obito would have such a power growth or gain such an enormous intel on Konoha's history. Absolutely nothing. Just Tobito theorists stupid guesses that make no sense.



because no one has ever in the entire history of this manga gotten stronger in a short period of time XD
And Madara definitely died at the vote fight, and you know EXACTLY when he died.........


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I see where you're coming from now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is why we don't take you guys seriously. What kind of argument is that? That is the least convincing argument. "Learns stuff from Madara." ??? 

This is why we call it stupid, "not that hard to comprehend" it's not like we're reading it wrong you're just making stupid speculations. You're saying things and your not even giving him a good reason as to how these events happened. 

If you read what you just posted you would realize its downright silly

EDIT: ceralux wanted evidence and you gave him speculation. He knows there is no evidence yet you still try to prove him wrong. It's not possible to prove him wrong. This theory SUCKS


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> This is why we don't take you guys seriously. What kind of argument is that? That is the least convincing argument. "Learns stuff from Madara." ??? This is why we call it stupid, "not that hard to comprehend" it's not like we're reading it wrong you're just making stupid speculations. You're saying things and your not even giving him a good reason as to how these events happened. If you read what you just posted you would realize its downright silly



I don't care if its 'GOOD' writing or not. I'm offering you the plausibilities, possibilities, which is what this argument is about. Which YOU don't seem to get.

Being 'trained by Madara as his apprentice' makes just as much sense as 'is an old man who used to be teammates with danzou and faked his death in some other way and gained MS in only one eye but the other eye is full of transplants'.
but no, YOU have all the answers, far be it for me to think that there are many possibilities

NICe to meet you kishi


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I don't care if its 'GOOD' writing or not. I'm offering you the plausibilities, possibilities, which is what this argument is about. Which YOU don't seem to get.
> 
> Being 'trained by Madara as his apprentice' makes just as much sense as 'is an old man who used to be teammates with danzou and faked his death in some other way and gained MS in only one eye but the other eye is full of transplants'.
> but no, YOU have all the answers, far be it for me to think that there are many possibilities
> ...



That's not evidence. Do you know what the word means? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

@ObitoUchiha111

Nothing you said is evidence. Those are all speculations. Can I have a manga picture of Tobi's MS please? You state Madara trained him and that he learnt stuff from Nagato with no proof. This is why your theories suck.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i know... there are just too many plotholes


""

An unexplained element has to be impossible before it can be called a  plot hole. Your holes are merely unanswered questions because it's not impossible to answer them, as I've . You have to try invalidating our suggested possible answers if you want to defend your position.


jacamo said:


> we dont know enough about Kagami for him to have any plotholes


That in itself is a problem. His blankness doesn't magically make him a better candidate than Obito. In my opinion it appears like an enormous hole, but in reality it is at least a huge question, which you try to answer using the possibility that Kagami is Obito's father. But by your logic we should probably reject that because relying on possibilities is "diplomatic." 

There's also no reason to assume that Tobi's identity has to make sense _now_. Kishimoto can write it in any way he sees fit.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> That's not evidence. Do you know what the word means? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> @ObitoUchiha111
> 
> Nothing you said is evidence. Those are all speculations. Can I have a manga picture of Tobi's MS please? You state Madara trained him and that he learnt stuff from Nagato with no proof. This is why your theories suck.



YOU SIR ARE RIGHT, ALL Sharingans have special S/T jutsus in base 3 tomoe form..............................And we know the S/T jutsu comes from his sharingan.
You want evidence but there is NO evidence that he is ANYONE. Give me evidence he is Kagami, or Izuna, or Fugaku, Or a Zetsu Clone of Madara. There is none, that's why its speculation.
Are there hints? Yes there are an overabundance of hints that it is Obito. Is it definite? No. Is it likely? Yes



sunanogaara307 said:


> 1. tobi fought minato as an adult just one year after obitos death. how did he get so tall and strong and how did he know kushinas seal would weaken?
> 2. kyuubi said "you..." upon feeling tobis intent/spotting his sharingan. kyuubi has never met obito nor felt evil intent from him. he recognises chakra easily like when he felt madara's. so wouldnt it come in handy for kyuubi to say "oi kakashi this here masked man is indentical to the chakra of your friend from 17 years ago"?
> 3. tobi said to kushina with cold unfamiliarity "do you know how LONG ive waited for this moment?" yeah 1 fuckin year is a real long time obito...
> 4. minato, another skilled sensor and the smartest character in the series failed to recognise tobi as anyone besides uchiha madara since no other uchiha ever was capable of mastering kyuubi. and if madara trained a successor how, he wouldnt wait till he found a near dead crushed kid with 2 tomoes.
> ...



1. 2 years after. And Height? You are trying to use height? Look at how tall the sound 5 were, they def didnt look 14. Look at how tall Itachi was during Massacre and when he beat Orochimaru at 11/14. Def looked the same as he was at 19. Look at Kakashi during the kyuubi attack. He looked plenty tall. For seal weakening, knowledge he learned from Madara. For abilities, all he needed to do to do what he did was learn to utilize the S/T jutsu from his MS and thats that. He didn't use any variety. He is just very difficult to hit. To tame the Kyuubi, what better than to have the guy who made it his DOG to teach him.

2. Idiot Point. Kyuubi sees everything host sees. Kyuubi was in Kushina. Kushina was married to Minato. Minato trained Kakashi and Obito. But you believe that in all those years of being trained, Kakashi and Obito would have NEVER met Kushina......put a and b together. 

3. 2 years. And there ARE possibilities. One possibility is he spent a lot of time in that pocket dimension of his s/t jutsu and time may flow differently in there. Another is that him being young he doesn't understand the true concept of long time. I'm not going to explain this again. Look at past posts.

4. Minato is not a sensor. The rest is your OPINION, not a hole. You are as Bias as can be, open your mind, Your point is null and void.

5. Zetsu is the land itself. Or Obito coudl have awoken his s/t jutsu and teleported out without realizing it. Or Madara has a thousand tricks up his sleeve. Its possible, get the fuck over it. How could Kagami have learned s/t jutsu and no one knew about it including his teammate and believed to still be madara by danzo

6. You are seroiusly taking Ohana SPOILERS? Ohana provides SPOILERS, that is gotten from Ohana taking a QUICK glance at the chapter at work, and snapping a photo or 2 with a phone. Those are NOT accurate, they are meant to give you an idea of whats to be released. Its CONFIRMED that the trans is 'you have lived a life of regret' but keep believing in false information and sounding confident. It seems you can persuade people that way.

7. not sure what this has anything to do with anything.

8. Because no one has ever lived blind. And this is a world where transplanting new eyes is impossible.................
(Izuna, Kakashi, Tobi)

9. Kakashi has had more interactions with Tobi than he has with ANY other villain that has been in this story. From the beginning we have been getting the hints of panel+panel shadows with Kakashi sharingan and Tobi sharingan. Also notice how we have NEVER seen a closeup of Tobi's sharingan when he is doing his s/t technique? Probably because it would be a big give away by its appearance.

10. irrelevent, maybe its not how its written but how its pronounced, either way i dont use it nor care.

11-12. I've typed explanations on this before already, its long, and there are possible explanations, but nothing is set in place. I have a FEW ideas, but nothing is confirmed. 

13. Madara could have done such things when Nagato was too young to remember. and he spurred YAHIKO on to make Akatsuki, not Nagato,  and this was apparently such a secret Konan didn't even know about it, so Nagato probably didn't know either. So yes Madara could have done it, and gave the informatin to Tobi who ended up saying he did it.]

14. Similar abilities of a GENETIC DISPOSITION, Bloodline Limit, ARE related, unless you can find an example of one that isn't. Lava isn't included, we haven't seen multiple in same family. We have rubber lava, cement lava, molten lava, and magma all from different villages.
Itachi and Sasuke are siblings, so YES it is logical for their abiilities to be VERY similar, if not downright the same.
Shisui had his own different abiities, apparently 2 Koto's 1 in each eye each with a cool down.
Madara and Izuna is an unknown what they have. but we know they have susanoo.
Kakashi has Kamui which allows him to send things to A pocket dimension from a distance with Obito's right eye.
Tobi has S/T jutsu that allows him to teleport or go intangible by accessing A pocket dimension in the left eye. conveniently the one to mirror Kakashi's.

To say both S/T jutsus are not related is by definition being in denial. And ignorant of the strong possibility that they are both from the same source.




ceralux said:


> That's not evidence. Do you know what the word means? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> @ObitoUchiha111
> 
> Nothing you said is evidence. Those are all speculations. Can I have a manga picture of Tobi's MS please? You state Madara trained him and that he learnt stuff from Nagato with no proof. This is why your theories suck.



There is NO such thing as evidence for Tobi's identity. If you got some EVIDENCE for Kagami, let's see it, that's right you can't becuase there isn't. There is no evidence for Izuna either. Or ANYONE in this series. If there was evidence we would know who it is. All that is around is hints, and these hints leave you to fill in blanks for various possibilities.
 I stated Tobi has MS because its the ONLY answer for Tobi possessing the S/T he has. the ONLY one. There is NO other explanation or possibility for it. MS grants special Uchiha jutsus. Regular 3 tomoe Sharingans don't possess any special jutsus. Tobi's S/T jutsu IS Sharingan related from seeing EVERY time it is used. So thus, it is an MS jutsu.

edit: Yes, yes I did quote and respond to the same thing twice, but I like both responses SO much, I'm gonna leave them


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> [sp]YOU SIR ARE RIGHT, ALL Sharingans have special S/T jutsus in base 3 tomoe form..............................And we know the S/T jutsu comes from his sharingan.
> You want evidence but there is NO evidence that he is ANYONE. Give me evidence he is Kagami, or Izuna, or Fugaku, Or a Zetsu Clone of Madara. There is none, that's why its speculation.
> Are there hints? Yes there are an overabundance of hints that it is Obito. Is it definite? No. Is it likely? Yes
> 
> ...



Ceralux wanted evidence on how ''Obito'' got so strong.. Not evidence on Tobi's identity. You still have no evidence at the end of the day stop trying to make a case


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Ceralux wanted evidence on how ''Obito'' got so strong.. Not evidence on Tobi's identity. You still have no evidence at the end of the day stop trying to make a case


Obito was an Uchiha, he was a chuunin level ninja WITHOUT sharingan, gaining sharingans grant automatic upgrades, accessing MS grants super automatic upgrades. 
One jutsu took Sasuke from getting overwhelmed to lighting ablaze a full blow 8 tailed biju (second strongest).
So explain to me why one jutsu can't take obito from being above average, to being a hassle for minato, especially when that one jutsu makes you virtually impossible to hit.

what evidence was there that Naruto would be able to fight on par with Pein before he learned SM in like a weeks time before SM was introduced. Or Sasuke being capable of fighting on the same level as Orochimaru and Itachi in only 2 years w/o MS. Show me evidence that you CANT get that strong in 2 years, because there is much evidence that you CAN get that strong in much less time.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Obito was an Uchiha, he was a chuunin level ninja WITHOUT sharingan, gaining sharingans grant automatic upgrades, accessing MS grants super automatic upgrades.
> One jutsu took Sasuke from getting overwhelmed to lighting ablaze a full blow 8 tailed biju (second strongest).
> So explain to me why one jutsu can't take obito from being above average, to being a hassle for minato, especially when that one jutsu makes you virtually impossible to hit.
> 
> what evidence was there that Naruto would be able to fight on par with Pein before he learned SM in like a weeks time before SM was introduced. Or Sasuke being capable of fighting on the same level as Orochimaru and Itachi in only 2 years w/o MS. Show me evidence that you CANT get that strong in 2 years, because there is much evidence that you CAN get that strong in much less time.



I'm not explaining to you why your *SPECULATION* is wrong, I was just telling you ceralux wanted *evidence* and he didn't get any, a simple and the best answer is ''there is no evidence''. Is that so hard? Stop bringing in all the speculation, there's no evidence of Obito becoming so strong yet being alive, and you're still trying to argue against someone who is saying there is no evidence.. Well he's 100% right there's no need for an argument


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> the plotholes are right in the manga and you still deny them!



i have referenced every single plothole with manga panels

you have not


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

> 1. tobi fought minato as an adult just one year after obitos death. how did he get so tall and strong and how did he know kushinas seal would weaken?



He was 14-15.  Minato was 5'9.  I myself was talker than that at what would be Obito's age and we've seen the Rookies go through growth spurts and there's inconsistent drawing of characters.  Look at young Itachi vs. rest of Akatsuki.



> 2. kyuubi said "you..." upon feeling tobis intent/spotting his sharingan. kyuubi has never met obito nor felt evil intent from him. he recognises chakra easily like when he felt madara's. so wouldnt it come in handy for kyuubi to say "oi kakashi this here masked man is indentical to the chakra of your friend from 17 years ago"?



He also had a similar reaction to Sasuke.  It's the evil chakra and eyes.



> 3. tobi said to kushina with cold unfamiliarity "do you know how LONG ive waited for this moment?" yeah 1 fuckin year is a real long time obito...



Bad writing but length of time is opinionated, based on frame of person and event and based on desire.  If you said I haven't eaten in a long time do you expect it to be years?



> 4. minato, another skilled sensor and the smartest character in the series failed to recognise tobi as anyone besides uchiha madara since no other uchiha ever was capable of mastering kyuubi. and if madara trained a successor how, he wouldnt wait till he found a near dead crushed kid with 2 tomoes.



Obviously Minato was wrong about him being Madara so...  And no where is it stated that Minato is a sensor or has knowledge of MS doujutsu.  No reason to suspect your recently killed student who had no sharingan and suposed to be crushed under rocks has an MS to control Kyuubi or time space.  Imagine if over the time gap Kakashi ran into a masked Sasuke who was thought to be dead and he was using his MS abilities or Orochimaru's abilities.  Would Kakashi recognize him without his sense of smell?



> 5. how would zetsu or madara or anyone know obitos body was under 2 tons of rock? WHY would they dig him out and rebuild him before he showed any special talent? do you know how many uchihas died in that war? more than just obito! and more suitable as a vessel/student since their bodies and eyes werent completely smashed.



Well, we don't know if they did dig him out.  You do know that the person at hand can phase and teleport.  We don't know Obito's ancestry that may have put him under notice of someone like Madara.



> 6. theres a myth that tobi said to kakashi "you lived a life of regret" ohana whos fluent in jaapanese said tobi said "you DESERVE a life of regret"



It doesn't matter the tone of the conversation was meant to be intimate and imply personal knowledge.



> 7. zetsu is able to record events and battles. this is partly how tobi has such a knowledge about the shinobi world and posibly how he knew the seal would weaken during birth. unless tobi was in konoha during mito giving birth to tsunade's parent.



I guess Zetsu can not tell Obito anything either.  Likely Madara was the person who told Obito to read the tablets such as Itachi and Sasuke.



> 8. tobi said "your the third sage of six paths" to nagato. if madara lived to meet and train obito then that would mean he unlocked rinnegan AFTER nagato did. and it means that madara shouldnt be talking about nagato like nagatos a brat. since he wouldnt be even if madara didnt watch his progress over the years. brat = asshole way of referring to a young man. so the last time madara saw nagato he was young, and so was madara. since he died soon after getting rinnegan, and since tobi said madara's the second sage, that means madara died a long time before jiraiya ever met nagato and could never have met obito. debunking this theory and confirming kishis comment that tobi and madara know each other.



Honestly, some things Tobi say pretending to be Madara have been proven to be lies, twisted truth or Madara feats.  Madara would be an old man by the time.  Yes, the last time he saw Nagato he was young which is subjective and doesn't mean he died right then.  Kabuto kind of gives away that Madara died old and he was reverted back to his prime.  Prime seems to end in Naruto universe sometime in their 50-60 range.  



> 9. such a big twist would have to be foreshadowed earlier than now. like "madara" spending more time talking to kakashi than just in passing.



Kakashi was the first person to see Tobi's sharingan and they've always had interesting dialog.  

1





> 0. common arguments are that the name is similar. well so are danzo/hanzo, sasuke/sakura, A/bee. the list goes on. obito doesnt even translate to what tobi does.



Yes, but there are more connections than name.  The obvious focus on single opposite sharingan of the eye given to Kakashi with linked ability. As seen in his fight with Konan he did have another sharingan yet his his focus is on his S/T eye.  Same even with the rinnegan.   



> 11. the hair argument. tobis hair has changed often. it was long when he controlled mizukage/met itachi. which brings me to my next point



Yes, there is the possibility that the long haired person was Madara or Tobi just had long hair for some time.  



> 12. kakashi said 10 years before part 1 zabuza killed everyone as a child. "child" places zabuza around 12/13 since he talked about how his hands were stained with blood when he was narutos age. the blood mist practices came as a result of tobis reign of terror controlling yagura. i doubt mei would do this to her people. zabuza also attempted a coup de'at on the mizukage. zabuzas an ass but hes not pure evil. he wouldnt try to overthrow mei. this means yagura reigned for at least 7 years. and two of those years were happening while obito was still an academy student in konoha. how did he move from konoha to kiri unseen and how did he hide such immense power/control mizukage from hundreds of miles away?



Obviously, Madara is the one who was controlling that if Obito is Tobi because of age. 



> 13. tobi has given claim to the fact he indirectly created akatsuki and indirectly awakened nagatos rinnegan. how could obito have done things occuring DECADES before his own birth? and why would madara have done this when as i pointed out nagato would damn well know if madara and tobi were different people based on the fact hes a chakra sensor.



Again these are feats claimed while Madara.  We don't know if it's true because Tobi is not reliable place for truth.  If Tobi is Obito he obviously didn't do those things and Madara lived to at least 17 years ago since it's confirmed they know each other.  It's obviously a plot hole that would have to be filled and not point speculating into fan fict realm.   We do not know the level of the Rinnegan's sensory abilities outside of being able to see chakra.  Only the byakugan has been shown as the only to be able to identify different people's chakra.  



> 14. similar abilities does not obito make. sasuke and itachi have susano. they arent the same person. jiraiya and kabuto have SM. they arent the same person.



True.  But MS is rare.  Don't you think that if you have a rare MS power that's from the opposite eye and powers are linked and the eye is the focus of the characters outfit it's bit much for coincidence.  

Say there are rare pair pistols this guy owns.  Friend is given the left gun as  Guy with right gun gets crushed by rocks and thought dead.  Friend discovers secret and so far unique auto fire on left gun which was already rare.  Other people with same rare pair of gun have vastly different hidden abilities on there pair.  Guy in mask pops up with similar unique auto fire on right gun which is same rare model of pistol.  Guy in mask put orange high lights on arm with right gun and hides other hand.  What's the logical suspicion?


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 3, 2012)

Danzio said:


> You know what will be disappointing? If it turned out to be not him.
> 
> The other candidates are too dull, unless its Tobirama's evil brother.



tobito is the least likely....LEAST. there's a better chance of tobi being naruto's long lost brother lary than obito


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> His blankness doesn't magically make him a better candidate than Obito.



im not saying it does

im saying Kagami has no plotholes


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not saying it does
> 
> im saying Kagami has no plotholes


Do you prefer it to Tobito? If you do, and if Tobito's "holes" are actually just unanswered questions, why? Personal preference?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> we dont know enough about Kagami for him to have any plotholes



His irrelevance is its own plot hole.

Who is this guy and why does it matter that he's Tobi?

At least with Obito and Izuna, there are some interesting parallels to be made.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

sunanogaara307 said:


> 6. theres a myth that tobi said to kakashi "you lived a life of regret" ohana whos fluent in jaapanese said tobi said *"you DESERVE a life of regret"*



this is gold 

curse those translators 



TH4N4T0S said:


> Do you prefer it to Tobito? If you do, and if Tobito's "holes" are actually just unanswered questions, why? Personal preference?



i prefer it to incongruent plot



First Tsurugi said:


> His irrelevance is its own plot hole.



thats not how a plothole is defined 

but ok, i see your point


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i prefer it to incongruent plot


And why would Tobito result in an incongruent plot?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 3, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> And why would Tobito result in an incongruent plot?



you know my answer to that question


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you know my answer to that question


Of course, but it has already been explained that they aren't plot holes, which I presume to be correct since you've apparently made no attempt to prove the contrary. 

That said, why would Tobito result in an incongruent plot?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2012)

Kagami Uchiha will become relevant in this manga in ways you people (minus the 9% who voted like me on the poll) would have never imagined.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you know my answer to that question



Kagami theory is a complete plot hole.  




> A plot hole, or plothole,* is a gap* or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or *constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. *.



Right now there is no information on Kagami to tie him to Tobi.  Kagami theory relies completely on the him being an eligible dead clan member.  There is nothing else.

Obito theory has a all types of evidence going for it.  It has one thing going against it and that's the known established timeline though most of the time line and back story is a mystery.  Or obvously you couldn't have Kagami theory.  The part of the establish timeline that disputes Tobito Theory comes from the very person, Tobi, who unreliable narrator pretending to be someone else.  



> Unreliable Narrator :In fiction, as in life, the unreliable narrator is a narrator who can't be trusted. Either from ignorance or self-interest, this narrator speaks with a bias, makes mistakes, or even lies.



As seen with Kyuubi attack to Sasuke(claim he didn't send Kyuubi), pretending to be Madara, possible lies to Konan about Yahiko(Read Nagato chapters and see Yahiko was already on Akatsuki stuff since a child unless Tobi influenced random orphans with no ninja training), giving Nagato his eyes(reread Nagato chapters and you see his description is more like a true awakening vs. implantation of rinnegan), the manner that Izuna gave Madara his eyes up doesn't match Itachi (though Itachi's an unreliable narrator as well), his battle with Hashirama and stealing of his DNA(The real Madara has boosted repeatedly that he did this and told Kabuto he stole something from him).

I am not 100 percent sure that Obito but there is nothing that makes it not possible.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


Illusion to Illusion...let the boy of Illusions go to where he belongs.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


At the moment none of the "theories" about Tobi's identity are absolute nor do any of them lack significant plotholes and other potential irregularities. Just as many think it's Obito, it's equally as (im)plausible that it's somebody else such as Izuna. Personally, as long as his identity/existence is explained is a reasonable and plausible manner I don't really care one way or the other whose face is beneath the mask.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 3, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> At the moment none of the "theories" about Tobi's identity are absolute nor do any of them lack significant plotholes and other potential irregularities. Just as many think it's Obito, it's equally as (im)plausible that it's somebody else such as Izuna. Personally, as long as his identity/existence is explained is a reasonable and plausible manner I don't really care one way or the other whose face is beneath the mask.



No plotholes? How do you explain Obito going from base sharingan fodder to an "invincible immortal"?


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i have referenced every single plothole with manga panels
> 
> you have not


Lol, I was joking about those.

But the Kagami theory in and of itself is a plothole. By your logic you should be against it since it's "incongruent plot".

But no. You won't listen because you contradict everything you say.

So let's see what we've got:
1. You're against the Tobito theory.

2. You support the Tobigami theory.

3. You don't listen to other people's arguments against your so called "plotholes".

4. You don't listen when someone points out that the Kagami theory is a giant plothole.

5. You say you're against incongruent plot even though we show that Tobi being Obito wouldn't be incongruent. Yet you believe in the Kagami theory which itself is a plothole.


jacamo said:


> im not saying it does
> 
> im saying Kagami has no plotholes


Torifu Akimichi has no plotholes either. Nor does Setsuna.

Of course people don't take the Torifu and Setsuna theories seriously, so why is Kagami so special?


jacamo said:


> this is gold
> 
> curse those translators


Lol, you say you're not against the Tobito theory and when someone points out what you believe to be a strike against it, you get all happy.

Not against it my ass, 

Also, what Tobi said could also be interpreted as "You deserve the life of regret that you've lived."


TH4N4T0S said:


> Of course, but it has already been explained that they aren't plot holes, which I presume to be correct since you've apparently made no attempt to prove the contrary.
> 
> That said, why would Tobito result in an incongruent plot?


Don't bother. He never listens to any arguments against him.


Thebaxman said:


> This is why we don't take you guys seriously. What kind of argument is that? That is the least convincing argument. "Learns stuff from Madara." ???


How is that not convincing? Are you saying Madara is an idiot and can't teach people things?

Are you saying the explanation has to be super complicated?

Yeah, Obito went on a journey through time and accumulated all the secrets of the universe and absorbed it all into himself and absorbed the consciousnesses of everyone in existence!"

NO! He fucking learned shit from Madara!


> This is why we call it stupid, "not that hard to comprehend" it's not like we're reading it wrong you're just making stupid speculations. You're saying things and your not even giving him a good reason as to how these events happened.


It should be quite frankly very obvious how these things happened.


> EDIT: ceralux wanted evidence and you gave him speculation. He knows there is no evidence yet you still try to prove him wrong. It's not possible to prove him wrong. This theory SUCKS


There is tons of EVIDENCE for Obito. But if we had actual PROOF then it wouldn't be a theory anymore, it would be CANON.

You can't say things are dumb because they're speculation, because ALL the Tobi theories are speculation!

I don't know what theory YOU believe in but THAT's speculation too!


ceralux said:


> That's not evidence. Do you know what the word means? This is exactly what I'm talking about.


He still offered plausibilities. Of course it's not evidence but so what? It's not like there isn't already a plethora of evidence for the Tobito theory.


> @ObitoUchiha111
> 
> Nothing you said is evidence. Those are all speculations. Can I have a manga picture of Tobi's MS please? You state Madara trained him and that he learnt stuff from Nagato with no proof. This is why your theories suck.




If you're going to say a theory sucks because it's speculation then you should just say EVERY theory sucks. Because they are ALL speculation. If they were more, they'd be CANON!

By the way, if Tobi is Obito then that would be proof enough that he knew Nagato and learned stiff from him by having him read the tablet. As we already know that's what Tobi did. So if he's Obito... well, do the math.

Please try to argue against theories without being a giant contradiction.


@*sunanogaara307*: I believe other have already answered these.

But about the names, Tobi spelled backwards in Japanese is literally "Bito". So there's a connection right there.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No plotholes? How do you explain Obito going from base sharingan fodder to an "invincible immortal"?





> At the moment none of the "theories" about Tobi's identity are absolute *nor* do any of them lack significant plotholes and other potential irregularities.



Err...I believe you may have misconstrued my previous post (or perhaps I may have worded it incorrectly the first time, I've been up for over thirty-five hours so that's also a possibility I suppose). What I was trying to get across was that none of the "theories" regarding Tobi's identity are without significant plotholes.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I see where you're coming from now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Raventhal said:


> Kagami theory is a complete plot hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is not "all sorts of evidence" for obito. TIMELINE is one of the key points to a theory  if the timeline is against it, how would you have evidence?


----------



## Xin (Aug 3, 2012)

I think Kishi wouldn't dare to let Obito's body rot under a rock


----------



## Seraphiel (Aug 3, 2012)

ovanz said:


> I think the biggest troll kishi: never show Tobi's face, he will die like a masked man, like Jack of blades from Fable.



Jack of blades was the mask though. And a dragon in lost chapters, so yeah.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> There is NO such thing as evidence for Tobi's identity. If you got some EVIDENCE for Kagami, let's see it, that's right you can't becuase there isn't. There is no evidence for Izuna either. Or ANYONE in this series. If there was evidence we would know who it is. All that is around is hints, and these hints leave you to fill in blanks for various possibilities.
> I stated Tobi has MS because its the *ONLY* answer for Tobi possessing the S/T he has. the ONLY one. There is NO other explanation or possibility for it. MS grants special Uchiha jutsus. Regular 3 tomoe Sharingans don't possess any special jutsus. Tobi's S/T jutsu IS Sharingan related from seeing EVERY time it is used. So thus, it is an MS jutsu.
> 
> edit: Yes, yes I did quote and respond to the same thing twice, but I like both responses SO much, I'm gonna leave them



I know there isn't any evidence for Izuna but I'm saying that there isn't any evidence for Obito either, but you're all still so fucking certain. 

There's only ONE answer?? Are you Kishimoto? How do you know there's only one answer. I'm not disagreeing that it isn't Obito's sharingan but that wouldn't mean that's actually Obito. Especially since Tobi has been seen having an entire collection of Sharingan.

You people don't understand anything related to the time-line. Izuna would know everything Tobi has claimed about Konoha, Madara, Rikudo's story etc. Why would Obito know all that? Because MADARA told him?? That's the stupidest reason. You guys need to do better.

@ObitoUchiha111

You say that there isn't any proof and that all theories are all speculations but you're so fucking sure it's Obito. That makes no sense. There's too many plot-holes.

You're holding  onto fucking strings. You're saying that Madara saved Obito and taught him everything? Where's your reasoning for that stupid excuse? You don't understand anything. What hints are given for you to think that? It's all in your head.


----------



## Talis (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


The whole Tobidara was an illusion.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 3, 2012)

*So let me get this straight...*

... the argument against Tobi using Obito's body is now that it is too _obvious_, and therefore won't happen? Not pointing any fingers, but is this what anti Tobito fans have regressed to? I remember when you were calling the theory far fetched and stupid, but now it is too obvious, apparently. Okay.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> There is not "all sorts of evidence" for obito. TIMELINE is one of the key points to a theory  if the timeline is against it, how would you have evidence?



The established time line is based on Tobi himself who is not a reliable narrator because he's a liar and was pretending to be someone else.  That's why the time line is not eliminator to Tobito theory.   Tobi lied to Konan saying he was Madara putting into question the Yahiko influence(manga supports this as lie IMO)is questionable and Nagato eyes is unproven by outside sources.  

If Nagato did not get Madara's eyes literally from Tobi/Madara then it allows Madara's awakening of his Rinnegan later in the timeline.  Thus his death could be after Obito's post rock incident.  Madara dying post prime(in Naruto world seems to be in 60's) is supported by Kabuto needed to revert Madara to his prime state.  Madara also had Senju DNA which promotes longevity, it's hard to believe he dropped dead at age 60 something or younger which he would be at Nagato's rinnegan awakening.    

Is that hard to understand?  

Think of it this way.  The Itachi story had an unreliable narrator Sasuke.  Due to ignorance his view of the story was that Itachi killed his whole clan alone because he was a sick evil bastard(questionable that he's not).  So for most of the story you could not dispute that Itachi was genocidal maniac for no reason.  It doesn't mean the theory that Itachi was really good was eliminated because there were circumstantial evidence that Itachi had other motives and Sasuke had a limited view of the events because of being young.     

We know now that Madara or Tobi assisted with the murder and Itachi was influenced into doing it and his clan and dad were treasonous.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You're an idiot. I know there isn't any evidence for Izuna but I'm saying that there isn't any evidence for Obito either, but you're all still so fucking certain.
> 
> There's only ONE answer?? Are you Kishimoto? How do you know there's only one answer. I'm not disagreeing that it isn't Obito's sharingan but that wouldn't mean that's actually Obito. Especially since Tobi has been seen having an entire collection of Sharingan.
> 
> ...



You mean everyone who knows history lived during the period they know about?


----------



## Easley (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


It will be the mother of all red herrings. Kishi's writing is obvious, but never so blatant as this. I think he's using the Tobito theory as a diversion.

If Tobi is Obito, there's no chance of a surprise - Tobito theories are everywhere. Kishi would be validating a million fanfics. Seriously, fuck off.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You're an idiot. I know there isn't any evidence for Izuna but I'm saying that there isn't any evidence for Obito either, but you're all still so fucking certain.
> 
> There's only ONE answer?? Are you Kishimoto? How do you know there's only one answer. I'm not disagreeing that it isn't Obito's sharingan but that wouldn't mean that's actually Obito. Especially since Tobi has been seen having an entire collection of Sharingan.
> 
> ...


Tell me something. Are you expecting the revelation to be a twist or surprise?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You're an idiot. I know there isn't any evidence for Izuna but I'm saying that there isn't any evidence for Obito either, but you're all still so fucking certain.
> 
> There's only ONE answer?? Are you Kishimoto? How do you know there's only one answer. I'm not disagreeing that it isn't Obito's sharingan but that wouldn't mean that's actually Obito. Especially since Tobi has been seen having an entire collection of Sharingan.
> 
> ...



There is Circumstantial evidence.



> Circumstantial evidence is evidence in which an inference is required to connect it to a conclusion of fact.  On its own, it is the nature of circumstantial evidence for more than one explanation to still be possible. Inference from one piece of circumstantial evidence may not guarantee accuracy. Circumstantial evidence usually accumulates into a collection, so that the pieces then become corroborating evidence. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more valid as proof of a fact when the alternative explanations have been ruled out.



Things like a sharingan which linked powers and opposite eye of one given to Kakashi by Obito.  

The heavy focus in costume, usage in powers on said eye in exclusion of alternatives such as other sharingan, rinnegan and ninjutsu.  

Intimate personal knowledge of Kakashi when Kakashi is known to be a loner.  

Tobi being a Uchiha and Kakashi has only been shown to know Obito and Sasuke. 

Allowing Kakashi to be the first person to see his opposite linked power sharingan.    

Masked Man appearing only after Obito's rock crushing.  

The color pattern of costume matching previous costume of Obito when Mask Man appeared as Tobi in public.  

Kakashi has been thrust into a plot that does not lend well to his previous known limits and powers with god tier characters.  Yet he is the only one who can counter Tobi.  

Those are examples when by themselves do not mean much but collaborating evidence points to Obito being Tobi.  Nobody else has much circumstantial evidence point to them.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


Have we ever been seemingly thrown off before? Can't remember at the moment.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

I have theories on Kagami too.  Izuna as well.  Your the only one close minded on the issue not me.  My opinion has changed.

I have given my evidence.  It's a mystery masked man.  Your not going to get DNA direct level evidence that Tobi is anyone or there would be no point in the mask.  Tobi could be anyone or anything.

I'm stating that Obito theory does have evidence and that's who I believe.  It's circumstantial evidence combined to give collaboratory evidence to support a theory that Tobi is Obito.  

There is no circumstantial evidence to support Kagami except that he's a Uchiha and he has no plot to refute anything.  It's like seeing a kid bit by a dog and blaming a random dog seen in a picture because it's also a dog, old enough and it's whereabouts, history, personality are unknown at the time.  There's no way to prove that dog did or didn't bite unless identified by the kid.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I have theories on Kagami too.  Izuna as well.  Your the only one close minded on the issue not me.  My opinion has changed.
> 
> I have given my evidence.  It's a mystery masked man.  Your not going to get DNA direct level evidence that Tobi is anyone or there would be no point in the mask.  Tobi could be anyone or anything.
> 
> ...



Give me some good Obito evidence that doesn't mess with the timeline


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Give me some good Obito evidence that doesn't mess with the timeline



There is no "good" evidence for anyone.  There are only collabortory evidence from the circumstantial evidence given in the manga which have been listed over and over to support Obito being Tobi.  

There is no evidence at all to suggest that Tobi is any of the other dead Uchiha or future characters or experiments besides pure speculation barring Izuna and Obito.    

And again the timeline is not known for fact.  The very mystery of the timeline and characters involved allow almost any of the dead Uchiha to be Tobi.  Obito's timeline issues are created by Tobi himself and Tobi is not a reliable narrator. Even Madara's randomly dropping dead of natural causes at 40-60 when Nagato awakened his Rinnegan are not supported by Kabuto's requirement to return Madara to prime nor Madara's Senju not providing longevity.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> *There is no "good" evidence for anyone*.  There are only collabortory evidence from the circumstantial evidence given in the manga which have been listed over and over to support Obito being Tobi.
> 
> There is no evidence at all to suggest that Tobi is any of the other dead Uchiha or future characters or experiments besides pure speculation barring Izuna and Obito.
> 
> And again the timeline is not known for fact.  The very mystery of the timeline and characters involved allow almost any of the dead Uchiha to be Tobi.  Obito's timeline issues are created by Tobi himself and Tobi is not a reliable narrator. Even Madara's randomly dropping dead of natural causes at 40-60 when Nagato awakened his Rinnegan are not supported by Kabuto's requirement to return Madara to prime nor Madara's Senju not providing longevity.



No good evidence, along with huge plot-holes convince me that Tobi is Obito


----------



## Jon Snow (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


OP theory is flawless

Yondaime being Naruto's father? MY MIND IS BLOWN


----------



## UrBusted (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


NO!

Obviously Tobi is *not a person* but rather *THE EYE*.

Obito's body died when it was crushed by that big rock.

However, the remaining Uchiha eye survived and became sentient.

Using some remaining Uchiha power in it, the eye formed its own body out of pure chakra and became Tobi.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> No good evidence, along with huge plot-holes convince me that Tobi is Obito



Lol, circumstantial evidence is better than pure speculation that any theory outside of Obito and Izuna is.  Oh wait their dead Uchiha and I can write fan fiction now they're Tobi lol.   

Tell me your "good" evidence for your theory without any speculation or fan fiction.   That means no making up stories on how ___ is Tobi.  Just pure direct evidence like finger prints, DNA, Blood, witnesses, visual evidence etc.


----------



## Danzio (Aug 3, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobito is the least likely....LEAST. there's a better chance of tobi being naruto's long lost brother lary than obito



Much more likely than Fugaku 

Where have you been the last couple of chapters ? All signs point to Obito.Maybe not him as a person, but his eye, soul or presence will definitely play a major role in the near future.Why else would Kishi dedicate a year to Kakashi who is not a main character and without the Obito connection I fail to see how he will be emotionally invested.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No plotholes? How do you explain Obito going from base sharingan fodder to an "invincible immortal"?



It's doujutsu.  You don't need much training besides use to master doujutsu.  That's like asking how Sasuke in a few hours went from basic Susanoo to Advance Susanoo or how he gained so much power from losing "Hebi" form to awakening MS and getting amaterasu, MS genjutsu and Susanoo.  Did we see Sasuke going out to training for 2 years to use MS lol?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2012)

*Obito is Shisui*

What if Obito "died" only in the record books to hide it from someone and his name changed to Shisui so that he could still live a normal life.  Shisui was known for the body flicker technique (Yondaime trained Obito) and would be around the same age as Obito.  Also it  wouldn't take much for a spare eye to be transplanted into him from a dead Uchiha to throw  off suspicion.  Possibly Tobi or some other force tried to do a Sasuke esque situation with him.  This all could have been set up by Danzo/Orochimaru/Elders.  Cuz think about it:


"I'm Orochimaru, I wish I had the sharingan, my master who I'm the trusted right hand man of secretly has like 20 of them"

Anyway what if Danzo simply tried to retrieve the eye that was given to Obito/Shisui.

One pair of eyes allowed what we think of shisui's ability, shisui only is confirmed to have one of these though, is this the replacement eye he got  or another in the event I'm right.  The other eye that Danzo had wasn't used, why not, did it have another ability?  Would it have had dimensional esque abilities and it was really Obito's eye.  If Danzo used it to fight Sasuke, that might have ruined it if used.  Also considering even if Sasuke was mind controlled, Tobi could have killed Danzo while he was at it.

Tobi seemed to want to kill Danzo, at least somewhat and led Sasuke to it.

Maybe Shibito (Shisui/Obito) wanted to get his revenge against Danzo.

Tobi is Shisui AND Obito, he's also the gingerbread man


----------



## Talis (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No plotholes? How do you explain Obito going from base sharingan fodder to an "invincible immortal"?


It was Madara ''long haired masked man'' which lived like over a few hundred years till at least Nagato's era.


----------



## ashher (Aug 3, 2012)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What if Obito "died" only in the record books to hide it from someone and his name changed to Shisui so that he could still live a normal life.  Shisui was known for the body flicker technique (Yondaime trained Obito) and would be around the same age as Obito.  Also it  wouldn't take much for a spare eye to be transplanted into him from a dead Uchiha to throw  off suspicion.  Possibly Tobi or some other force tried to do a Sasuke esque situation with him.  This all could have been set up by Danzo/Orochimaru/Elders.  Cuz think about it:
> 
> 
> "I'm Orochimaru, I wish I had the sharingan, my master who I'm the trusted right hand man of secretly has like 20 of them"
> ...


I once theorized that obito and shisui were brothers.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2012)

ashher said:


> I once theorized that obito and shisui were brothers.


^ Did you take an arrow to the knee?


----------



## Talis (Aug 3, 2012)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What if Obito "died" only in the record books to hide it from someone and his name changed to Shisui so that he could still live a normal life.  Shisui was known for the body flicker technique (Yondaime trained Obito) and would be around the same age as Obito.  Also it  wouldn't take much for a spare eye to be transplanted into him from a dead Uchiha to throw  off suspicion.  Possibly Tobi or some other force tried to do a Sasuke esque situation with him.  This all could have been set up by Danzo/Orochimaru/Elders.  Cuz think about it:
> 
> 
> "I'm Orochimaru, I wish I had the sharingan, my master who I'm the trusted right hand man of secretly has like 20 of them"
> ...


Shisui is his brother since, Tobi wanted his eyes for some reason (EMS) and sicne they look almost the same.


----------



## Easley (Aug 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It was Madara ''long haired masked man'' which lived like over a few hundred years till at least Nagato's era.


You're very persistent, and the long-haired man being Madara would clear up a few plot holes.

I still think he's Tobi.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It was Madara ''long haired masked man'' which lived like over a few hundred years till at least Nagato's era.



Madara wouldn't be that old. He'd be like 90-100 if he was still alive.  Hashirama, Madara generation seem to be like 20-30 years older than Hiruzen's generation.  Hiruzen was almost 70.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You're an idiot.


I really don't want to start deleting posts in this thread, since you guys have a lot to argue about. And I'm certainly not singling you out on this, ceralux...

I only want to make this clear: [highlight]Keep the flames in check[/highlight], fellas. You guys have been periodically slinging about insults here 'n there, and they aren't going unnoticed even if we aren't taking immediate action.

This may be a hot topic, but is it worth some time off?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Shisui is his brother since, Tobi wanted his eyes for some reason (EMS) and sicne they look almost the same.


It's his "brother"
In reality it's him.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

Hypocrites.[/quote]Speculative circumstances overwhelmingly surround this issue. Thus, you have little choice but to rely on logical possibilities -- ideas against which there exists no apparent contradiction. As long as there is no logical contradiction to the idea that Obito learned "stuff" from someone else, the point stands. Or are you willing to accept that the temporary fanfiction people make up to explain other theories is invalid?


----------



## Talis (Aug 3, 2012)

Easley said:


> You're very persistent, and the long-haired man being Madara would clear up a few plot holes.
> 
> I still think he's Tobi.





Raventhal said:


> Madara wouldn't be that old. He'd be like 90-100 if he was still alive.  Hashirama, Madara generation seem to be like 20-30 years older than Hiruzen's generation.  Hiruzen was almost 70.


Doesn't matter the point is that Itachi reffered him to ''immortal'' is his power and his life force, Madara lived for over 100 years confirmed, Tobi didn't.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 3, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Speculative circumstances overwhelmingly surround this issue. Thus, you have little choice but to rely on logical possibilities -- ideas against which there exists no apparent contradiction. As long as there is no logical contradiction to the idea that Obito learned "stuff" from someone else, the point stands. Or are you willing to accept that the temporary fanfiction people make up to explain other theories is invalid?



I'm just gonna say it, I've been avoiding arguing with you alone because you sir come off as truly arrogant.

That being said.

Fan-fiction to explain other theories isn't valid or invalid, it's besides the point if you're really trying to get to the bottom of who Tobi is, more or less this thread has become idealists arguing over their candidate, instead of people actually trying to break it down and look at the information given.

*"Obito for Tobi, Kagami for Tobi, Izuna for Tobi, Zetsu-Clone for Tobi!"*
That's what this thread is... not what it's meant to be...
*Who is Tobi?*


----------



## αce (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


Red Herring or shit writing.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Doesn't matter the point is that Itachi reffered him to ''immortal'' is his power and his life force, Madara lived for over 100 years confirmed, Tobi didn't.



Well, if Itachi thought Tobi was Madara then he'd think dude would be old as hell.  Especially if you was intangible you might considering him immortal.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

Tharris said:


> Fan-fiction to explain other theories isn't valid or invalid, it's besides the point if you're really trying to get to the bottom of who Tobi is, more or less this thread has become idealists arguing over their candidate, instead of people actually trying to break it down and look at the information given.
> 
> *"Obito for Tobi, Kagami for Tobi, Izuna for Tobi, Zetsu-Clone for Tobi!"*
> That's what this thread is... not what it's meant to be...
> *Who is Tobi?*


Which is irrelevant to the conversation I wish to establish between myself and Thebaxman, a conversation where I would want to address his apparent doubt on the usefulness of stories made to support Tobi theories.

But, if by "valid or invalid", you're saying that temporary fanfiction provides no merit in determining whether a Tobi theory is valid, then you're essentially agreeing with me.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

Tharris said:


> I'm just gonna say it, I've been avoiding arguing with you alone because you sir come off as truly arrogant.
> 
> That being said.
> 
> ...



Most of the issue comes down to people getting testy and insultive about Tobito Theory.  People wanting more evidence for Tobito theory than any other and refuse to accept evidence about Tobito theory.  It breaks down any discussion that can be had.

The point of Tobito theorist is that other theories have little to no evidence at all.  Yet Tobito theorist are supposed to come up with magic bullet evidence that's not going to exist because Tobi is supposed to be a mystery.  

Then they want to talk about their favorite theory that has nothing to support it except they saw a Uchiha on a couple of panels or make it up completely.


----------



## Jacob Shekelstein (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


It's obviously a ploy. He tricked us into thinking it's Madara with Tobi's lies and his long hair in flashbacks, then he tricked us into thinking it's Izuna because Tobi was supposed to ressurect him and apparently the two worked together on the same plan, then he tricked us into thinking Tobi is a new character or some bullshit Madara's clone with the "I am nobody. All I care about is the Moon's eye plan." statement. 

He's been constantly using ploys to trick and throw off readers. I don't know why people are suddenly dead sure Kishimoto is going to use the easiest thoery out of all, one that even a 4 year old could figure out. Kishimoto even told in a interview that Tobi is going to be revealed in next few weeks and that we should keep guessing his identity.

I'd lose all respect of him as a writter if it was Obito. Not that I have that much respect left from him anyways...


----------



## Mantux31 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


*handsigns*
Release!


----------



## Xin (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


Think of it. There are only a few people sharing there opinions in places like this. But it'll be a suprise for the most readers, even if it's Obito in the end.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 3, 2012)

sunanogaara307 said:


> 1. tobi fought minato as an adult just one year after obitos death.



Um, no he didn't. Minato fought Tobi several years after Obito's death.

P.S I'm not a Tobito supporter.


----------



## Jacob Shekelstein (Aug 3, 2012)

DavidBenjamin said:


> Think of it. There are only a few people sharing there opinions in places like this. But *it'll be a suprise* for the most readers, even if it's Obito in the end.



No, it won't. Kishimoto told in a interview that Tobi will be revealed in next few weeks and people should *keep* guessing his true identity. 

Obviously he's aware that Tobi theories are the biggest thing about his manga and everyone is interested in who he is.That's why he wouldn't say keep guessing and then troll us with the easiest and most obvious theory.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


It seems Anti-Tobito people will accept anything - Naruto's long lost brother, Sasuke from the future, Rin, the ramen guy, _anything_ - just so they can be right about this.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

Obvious hint is obvious.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

It would be cool if Tobi was someone in plain sight.  But almost all of the villiage was there for the Kyuubi attack except the Uchiha and they've all been killed.


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obvious hint is obvious.



Tobi doesn't wear googles and therefore is not Obito


----------



## Xin (Aug 3, 2012)

Maybe he underestimated his readers. I think he knew who Tobi is the moment he created him and he wanted to give us little hints who he could be but made it a bit too obvious.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 3, 2012)

Tobi is Kaiza?


----------



## Jay. (Aug 3, 2012)

Tobi is Obito from an alternative universe.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

Another obvious hint is obvious!


----------



## Noitora (Aug 3, 2012)

Tobi is Kakashi from an alternate universe.


----------



## mlc818 (Aug 3, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> It seems Anti-Tobito people will accept anything - Naruto's long lost brother, Sasuke from the future, Rin, the ramen guy, _anything_ - just so they can be right about this.



Lol, I'm sure you've noticed the massive shift in opinion from "Tobi isn't related to Obito in any way!" to "Well maybe Tobi has his eye or part of his body, but it isn't Obito's soul!" in the responses to the past few chapters. 

 I can't say for certain it's anyone, because it's fiction and a plausible explanation could justify anyone that Kishi reveals as Tobi, but my opinion is that some variant of Tobito is virtually guaranteed now.  All the anti-Tobito people should note that last chapter was entirely about how Kakashi and Tobi share the same Sharingan technique... what possible connection could Kakashi have to any other Uchiha other than Obito?

but seriously, his name being "Obito" in reverse in Japanese for years now should have been obvious.  I've been assuming this since Tobi's introduction, and openly advocating it on the forums since I started posting.  This manga probably isn't complicated enough to "hint" at Obito so much to make it just  diversion; he almost certainly has Obito's eye or is related to Obito in both genetics and goal.

As I said years ago, tho, "Tobi" could also be a reference to "ten - tail," so Obito overtaken by the Juubi(the source of the "evil" power of the Sharingan) would be a realistic reveal.  Also Tobi's reaction to being a pseudo-Jinchuuriki and to the hate in the world would be in direct opposition to Naruto's successes thus far, setting him up as a good final villain.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Tobi doesn't wear googles and therefore is not Obito






Escargon said:


> Tobi is Kaiza?


Lol. Both his arms were torn off and he was killed by Gato.


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


>



The panels you provided



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Another obvious hint is obvious!



Tobi doesn't fear rocks unlike Obito



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Lol. Both his arms were torn off and he was killed by Gato.



Zetsu goo arm, more hints that Tobi is Kaiza by your logic


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 3, 2012)

mlc818 said:


> Lol, I'm sure you've noticed the massive shift in opinion from "Tobi isn't related to Obito in any way!" to "Well maybe Tobi has his eye or part of his body, but it isn't Obito's soul!" in the responses to the past few chapters.
> 
> I can't say for certain it's anyone, because it's fiction and a plausible explanation could justify anyone that Kishi reveals as Tobi, but my opinion is that some variant of Tobito is virtually guaranteed now.  All the anti-Tobito people should note that last chapter was entirely about how Kakashi and Tobi share the same Sharingan technique... what possible connection could Kakashi have to any other Uchiha other than Obito?
> 
> ...



Yes, it's hilarious.

Coming next: "well, maybe it's only part of his soul!!!11"

I'm not saying this theory is 100% correct, but it amuses me how against it some people are.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Zetsu goo arm, more hints that Tobi is Kaiza by your logic



Anti-Obito people are funny.  Why so much expectation from Obito yet other theories are given fan fiction room to make up a story to fit plotless people?

It's Sasuke from the future because he's Uchiha and Sasuke and let me tell you a cool story bro.

Kagami must be Tobi.  He's Obito's dad, no his grandfather, no he has his eye cuz he was searching for Obito's eye under random boulders in the Hidden grass Village.   I mean didn't you see in his two panels the look in his eye that he works with Madara?

It's a Madara clone.  He's keeping his mask because he has an identity crisis.  His personality totally different because he's not really a clone he's a mindless entity created by Madara.


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 3, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Anti-Obito people are funny.  Why so much expectation from Obito yet other theories are given fan fiction room to make up a story to fit plotless people?
> 
> It's Sasuke from the future because he's Uchiha and Sasuke and let me tell you a cool story bro.
> 
> ...



Izuna's height is almost the same according to databook for example of a good canon clue


----------



## Escargon (Aug 3, 2012)

Plus Tobis and Kaizas hairstyle (manga) are identical, canon right there


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 3, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Plus Tobis and Kaizas hairstyle (manga) are identical, canon right there



So many hints


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 3, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> It seems Anti-Tobito people will accept anything - Naruto's long lost brother, Sasuke from the future, Rin, the ramen guy, _anything_ - just so they can be right about this.



I would never accept Rin as Tobi.
That is if I hadn't watched Bakugan to know Masquerade = Alice.


----------



## NW (Aug 3, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Tobi doesn't fear rocks unlike Obito


He doesn't? Did you see how he was evading those things? Lol.



SaskeKun said:


> But it's canon


*sigh*



Raventhal said:


> Anti-Obito people are funny.  Why so much expectation from Obito yet other theories are given fan fiction room to make up a story to fit plotless people?
> 
> It's Sasuke from the future because he's Uchiha and Sasuke and let me tell you a cool story bro.
> 
> ...


Basic argument of a Tobito hater, lol.



tgm2x said:


> Izuna's height is almost the same according to databook for example of a good canon clue


Because people stay the same height and weight for 80 years.



tgm2x said:


> So many hints






tgm2x said:


> Zetsu goo arm, more hints that Tobi is Kaiza by your logic





Escargon said:


> Plus Tobis and Kaizas hairstyle (manga) are identical, canon right there


o___O 

Holy shit, guys, you're right!



Also: 






"If you're a man, choose a life without regret." - Kaiza

"Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret." - Tobi

o______O


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't think Tobi's eyebrows are that think lol.


----------



## αce (Aug 3, 2012)

> It seems Anti-Tobito people will accept anything - Naruto's long lost brother, Sasuke from the future, Rin, the ramen guy, _anything_ - just so they can be right about this.



No one believes that.
Shut up.


----------



## Summers (Aug 3, 2012)

mlc818 said:


> Lol, I'm sure you've noticed the massive shift in opinion from "Tobi isn't related to Obito in any way!" to "Well maybe Tobi has his eye or part of his body, but it isn't Obito's soul!" in the responses to the past few chapters.



Its disgusting, is what it is. I knew it was coming, I made many posts saying exactly this was going to happen. They wont say it is Tobi but they will ass-cover by saying "maybe this" "but that". When people got head-faked into thinking Tobi would be revealed when Naruto crashed into Tobi people reacted like that. It wasn't just with Obito though, it was with all the theories.

Though I hate Tobi=? Threads in general, I am keeping a close eye on them for signs of this behavior.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 3, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Which is irrelevant to the conversation I wish to establish between myself and Thebaxman, a conversation where I would want to address his apparent doubt on the usefulness of stories made to support Tobi theories.
> 
> But, if by "valid or invalid", you're saying that temporary fanfiction provides no merit in determining whether a Tobi theory is valid, then you're essentially agreeing with me.



No, because you dance with your words quite carefully, instead of discussing or debating, no one is quite sure exactly what you're trying to say.

Literally, the gist of what I got from what you just said is this in paraphrased form.

*TH4N4T0S:* It doesn't matter if I come off as arrogant, I was just trying to show Thebaxman that fan-fiction is useful for supporting Tobi theories.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is irrelevant to the conversation I wish to establish between myself and Thebaxman, a conversation where I would want to address his apparent doubt on the usefulness of stories made to support Tobi theories.




*TH4N4T0S:* but based on what you said, me and you both agree that fan-fiction doesn't support Tobi theories.

*Spoiler*: __ 



But, if by "valid or invalid", you're saying that temporary fanfiction provides no merit in determining whether a Tobi theory is valid, then you're essentially agreeing with me.




I'm not trying to be rude man, but what are you saying?
Fan-fiction can't be used as proof.?
Fan-fiction is just speculation of possibility, Which supports theories, but doesn't prove them?


----------



## groote (Aug 3, 2012)

*Solution to the timeline problems with the Tobito theory*

Everyone says Tobi can't be Obito because he is too old. That may be so, but I figured out the solution. Obito used his jutsu to go back in time and become Tobi. They don't call it space-time jutsu for nothing.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 3, 2012)

groote said:


> Everyone says Tobi can't be Obito because he is too old. That may be so, but I figured out the solution. Obito used his jutsu to go back in time and become Tobi. They don't call it space-time jutsu for nothing.


The biggest problem with Tobi being Obito is not the timeline, which as you pointed out can be bent however the plot needs it, but with Obito's character. It is impossible that a character as idealistic as Obito ("Those who abandon their friends are even lower than trash!" "I believe that the White Fang is a true hero!") could have become a nihilistic monster as evil as Tobi in just two years.

However, there is no problem if someone else has possessed Obito's body (with his memories taken as well, presumably).


----------



## Revolution (Aug 3, 2012)

groote said:


> Everyone says Tobi can't be Obito because he is too old. That may be so, but I figured out the solution. Obito used his jutsu to go back in time and become Tobi. They don't call it space-time jutsu for nothing.


If you are going to use the "go back in time" theory, Tobi might as well be Naruto


----------



## Summers (Aug 3, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The biggest problem with Tobi being Obito is not the timeline, which as you pointed out can be bent however the plot needs it, but with Obito's character. It is impossible that a character as idealistic as Obito ("Those who abandon their friends are even lower than trash!" "I believe that the White Fang is a true hero!") could have become a nihilistic monster as evil as Tobi in just two years.
> 
> However, there is no problem if someone else has possessed Obito's body (with his memories taken as well, presumably).



Of all the bodies to possess, half dead, half crushed missing eye Obito would be...Odd.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

Tharris said:


> No, because you dance with your words quite carefully, instead of discussing or debating, no one is quite sure exactly what you're trying to say.


I have no idea what you're talking about.


> *TH4N4T0S:* It doesn't matter if I come off as arrogant, I was just trying to show Thebaxman that fan-fiction is useful for supporting Tobi theories.
> 
> *TH4N4T0S:* but based on what you said, me and you both agree that fan-fiction doesn't support Tobi theories.
> 
> ...


Yes, but that's not all of it. Some people seem to dislike the fact that Tobito supporters "make up stories" (a.k.a. fan fiction) to  try answering questions about Tobito. What is there to dislike if, by the circumstances of the situation, logic permits such stories? In modal logic, you would know them as possibilities (epistemic possibilities, IIRC). To use their existence as a counterargument against a Tobi theory is futile unless there is something that logically contradicts them. 

For instance, it is argued that Obito couldn't have learned so much in 1-2 years. A Tobito supporter says: "Hey, for all we know, part of Madara's knowledge or memories was transferred into Tobi's mind!" Sounds like fan fiction, but can you find anything that makes it impossible (i.e., something that logically contradicts it)? If there is none, then I don't see why any reasonable individual would hate it.

Because nearly everything about Tobi's identity can only be speculated, we are forced to rely on possibilities (besides evidence, if any) to form theories. You may say that the stories you've encountered aren't convincing, but who cares? Right now, Tobi's identity doesn't have to make sense to you, me, or any other reader. What matters is what makes sense to Kishimoto.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 3, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "If you're a man, choose a life without regret." - Kaiza
> 
> "Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret." - Tobi
> 
> o______O



It's *you deserve to live a life of regret*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 3, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> It's *you deserve to live a life of regret*



NO, It is NOT that. Stop making stuff up. Ohana doesn't do exact scripts/translations. Ohana does spoilers, that is all. You want to discuss this take it to the translations section. But DO NOT come here thinking you know what the trans is.

And as for evidence, there is NO evidence for anything.
As for hints, there are many hints for Obito, a few for IZuna, NONE for Kagami, like maybe ONE for a madara zetsu clone.
Fanfiction in this regard isn't for entertainment. It's just offering examples of POSSIBLE ways it could be done if someone else was the author. 
I have never ONCE stated my Tobito theory for fact, not a single time, but MS, that for damn sure is the ONLY explanation for the S/T. You don't like it, cool make a bet with me I guarentee I will win. If not, then go away and leave it be. I offered possible explanations for how the timeline could play out with no plot holes. Kishi can do the EXACT same thing with different explanations to make the timeline work out. Until the timeline is PROVEN to be messed up, there is no timeline issue for obito.

edit: There I made a thread request for that statement just so I can say "I told you so"


----------



## Combine (Aug 3, 2012)

Summers said:


> Of all the bodies to possess, half dead, half crushed missing eye Obito would be...Odd.


Tobi clearly values good eyes, as seen with his craving for Shisui's. Considering how powerful Obito's eye has become by being wielded by Tobi, it clearly was desirable enough and he probably saw that potential. Missing body parts clearly do not matter considering how easily he seems able to replace them.


----------



## Doctorsim (Aug 4, 2012)

groote said:


> Everyone says Tobi can't be Obito because he is too old. That may be so, but I figured out the solution. Obito used his jutsu to go back in time and become Tobi. They don't call it space-time jutsu for nothing.


What potential?

He only awakened it at stage 2 and used it maybe twice before dieing.

How does that showcase any sort of potential? Let alone hint at what his MS ability would've been.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 4, 2012)

Summers said:


> Of all the bodies to possess, half dead, half crushed missing eye Obito would be...Odd.



He's a fixer-upper but you take what you can get.

Anyway, clearly SOMEbody salvaged Obito's eye and/or body because there's no way that he got out of that mess on his own.


----------



## Armodullahan (Aug 4, 2012)

groote said:


> Everyone says Tobi can't be Obito because he is too old. That may be so, but I figured out the solution. Obito used his jutsu to go back in time and become Tobi. They don't call it space-time jutsu for nothing.


I can see Kishi lifting that from the Cell saga in DBZ, with like GM taking the place of the androids (destroyed in Cell/Tobi's future, so he had to go back in time to achieve his plan).

I really hope not though, its retarded.


----------



## TobiUchiha5941 (Aug 4, 2012)

Does anyone still think its the elder son? or has that theory been forgotten.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 4, 2012)

TobiUchiha5941 said:


> Does anyone still think its the elder son? or has that theory been forgotten.



I used to think it was a possibility for the mystery edo tensei kabuto had. But to be Tobi, I never believed that, because then there would have been more comments on his pseudo rinnegan eyes than just that one or two panels we got of it.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 4, 2012)

Armodullahan said:


> I can see Kishi lifting that from the Cell saga in DBZ, with like GM taking the place of the androids (destroyed in Cell/Tobi's future, so he had to go back in time to achieve his plan).
> 
> I really hope not though, its retarded.


If anybody is doing time-traveling, it will be Sasuke and Orochimaru with that mysterious scroll. And if one of them stayed behind in the past...


----------



## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

*New Theory on Tobi's Identity*

Over the past few weeks I have been thinking that Tobi is Obito and while that remains a very plausible theory at this point. I have thought of an alternative theory that would lack some of the claimed inconsistencies of Tobi = Obito, while still maintaining a connection between the two. 

What if Tobi is really a Frankenstein type monster/creation of Madara's, I.E. Madara tried to bring Izuna back by to life and to do so he attached parts of other shinobi to Izuna's body. However like in the Frankenstein novel what Madara brough back was not really his brother anymore, which is why he said his brother was dead.

So for example maybe Madara used Zetsu clone as the basis for the body, than added some parts from Izuna and himself. Which is why Tobi called himself Madara and has the identity crisis going on. Also the Frankenstein monster continues to add different parts of other shinobi to himself. He added part of Obito to himself including his eye after finding Obito's corpse and the reason why he wanted Sasuke was to add a part of Sasuke's body to himself. 

There is also hint that Tobi might be inspired by Frankenstein in the fact that his first costume had a bunch of bolts all over itAlso if you look at Deidara's replacement arm it has those same weird kind of wrinkly skin type as Tobi's face around the area of his S/T Jutsu eye (or Obito's eye):
giving chase to Naruto
giving chase to Naruto


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 4, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!


Remember when everyone said that the real Pain was in fact a crippled Nagato?  Remember when they said Minato was Naruto's dad?



Marsala said:


> The biggest problem with Tobi being Obito is not the timeline, which as you pointed out can be bent however the plot needs it, but with Obito's character. It is impossible that a character as idealistic as Obito (*"Those who abandon their friends are even lower than trash!"* "I believe that the White Fang is a true hero!") could have become a nihilistic monster as evil as Tobi in just two years.



Remember Nagato?  He went from an idealist to a baby killer because his best friend committed suicide.

Also:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Oh, and he's clearly a guy who lost a lot with all his talk of, "This world is completely worthless... There's nothing left in it but misery.



Imagine Rin dying due to the ninja system and then Obito making it his life goal to change the world via any means necessary before coming to the conclusion that he should just brainwash everyone into living in a peaceful genjutsu.



Marsala said:


> Anyway, clearly SOMEbody salvaged Obito's eye and/or body because there's no way that he got out of that mess on his own.



Maybe the guy who claims to be "the land itself."


----------



## son_michael (Aug 4, 2012)

your not the first person to come up with this theory. I for 1 would hate the idea of tobi being a collection of parts and then having all this panel time to trick us that he's obito when instead kakashi is just getting screen time with him because tobi has obito's sharingan

stupid imo


----------



## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

son_michael said:


> your not the first person to come up with this theory. I for 1 would hate the idea of tobi being a collection of parts and then having all this panel time to trick us that he's obito when instead kakashi is just getting screen time with him because tobi has obito's sharingan
> 
> stupid imo


Maybe Tobi takes on part of the personality and memories of the person he takes parts from.


----------



## Revolution (Aug 4, 2012)

ovanz said:


> I think the biggest troll kishi: never show Tobi's face, he will die like a masked man, like Jack of blades from Fable.



Not if Naruto can help it.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 4, 2012)

Tobi is Sasori's real soul. He only left a portion of his sould in his doll form. Oh yeah, sasori is also from an alternate universe. He slips in and out of this reality. Y'all thought sasori was controlling all those jins with his eye power. Nope, it was just anothere puppet act.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 4, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Maybe Tobi takes on part of the personality and memories of the person he takes parts from.



possibly


but it would be too contrived, require a long explanation and why not just sya he's 1 character? I still don't see how that's a fan please or how kakashi and Naruto relate to him. I don't know why people put the "im no one" line so far above everything else. To me its pretty obvious that its a psychological thing, he's no one because he threw away his former identity which is why he pretended to be madara.


Oh wait I know why, its because people have an ungodly hatred for the obito theory.


----------



## darknos (Aug 4, 2012)

son_michael said:


> your not the first person to come up with this theory. I for 1 would hate the idea of tobi being a collection of parts and then having all this panel time to trick us that he's obito when instead kakashi is just getting screen time with him because tobi has obito's sharingan
> 
> stupid imo



Honestly never post, but it would be stupid to have a cliffhanger style big revelation that is EXACTLY what its drawn out to be. Right now kishi is OBVIOUSLY trying to make it obito, meaning if it is obito there's no revelation at all. An entire waste of 100s of chapters...However it is is kishi, probably will be the poor writing of its exactly what I made you think it was theres no revelation. In non stupid good writing this would be called a red herring, and it would turn out to be someone else. But yea don't count on that this isn't good writing, just good action.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankestein monster...well that applies to most edo tensei, Kakuzu (made of dead hearts) and also Danzo the pimp.

At least the "base" of Tobi now seems very uchiha based, like using the uchiha crest and this chapter using a uchiha barrier jutsu.


----------



## Laocoon (Aug 4, 2012)

*What if Tobi is Second Hokage + Madara?*

Note: I don't know any Japanese, so this is pretty much speculation on my part

So yeah, just basing it off the name, Tobi could easily be a play on Tobirama, despite that latter is written in kanji or w/e. Further, apparently "tobira" means doors, which would seem to play into the whole space-time abilities of Tobi (doors into other dimensions, etc.). Not to mention that Tobirama was allegedly a master of space-time ninjutsu. 

Now, if Tobi is some type of clone/mixture of Madara's and Tobirama's DNA, this would explain how he has Senju abilities, yet claims to be Uchiha Madara. 

Final evidence is that the only reason Kishi would have him wear a mask for so long is that we should be able to recognize him when it's taken off. Now either we'll get a view of this character in the forthcoming chapters (unlikely) or the character has already been revealed to us. If the latter is indeed the case, then Tobirama makes sense.


----------



## Rokudaime Sennin ? (Aug 4, 2012)

Laocoon said:


> Note: I don't know any Japanese, so this is pretty much speculation on my part
> 
> So yeah, just basing it off the name, Tobi could easily be a play on Tobirama, despite that latter is written in kanji or w/e. Further, apparently "tobira" means doors, which would seem to play into the whole space-time abilities of Tobi (doors into other dimensions, etc.). Not to mention that Tobirama was allegedly a master of space-time ninjutsu.
> 
> ...



Tobi means Ten Tails.  Juu and To both mean 10.  



Tobi using that as his moniker is simply an allusion to the fact that he has given up his own identity in order to fulfill the sole mission he's focused on thruout his life, the Moon's Eye Plan.  

For now there's 75% chance Tobi is Izuna with Obito's right eye, 15% chance he's the elder son with Obito's right eye, or 10% chance he's Obito.


----------



## Tom Servo (Aug 4, 2012)

Kagami Uchiha


----------



## Escargon (Aug 4, 2012)

godzillafan430 said:


> Kagami Uchiha



So tell me bro, i know Kishi is insane, but is he really insane enough to hide a characters identity and then come up with a filler character years after?


----------



## Laocoon (Aug 4, 2012)

> Tobi means Ten Tails. Juu and To both mean 10.
> 
> Tobi using that as his moniker is simply an allusion to the fact that he has given up his own identity in order to fulfill the sole mission he's focused on thruout his life, the Moon's Eye Plan.



Not that I don't doubt that, but it's certainly possible for a name to have more than one meaning. Again, I'm not familiar with Japanese, but it seems that multiple allusions are at least possible here.


----------



## Gonder (Aug 4, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kishi has never made things so obvious, so why would make it seem as if Tobi is (or part) Obito? It's just to obvious IMO, I think he's setting up that "WTFOMGITSHIM" reveal... You know this to be true.
> 
> We are all expecting Tobi's reveal to be a disappointing, so what better way to throw us off the scent by making you think he's Obito by giving us such obvious hints?
> 
> TIS A TRIK I TEL U! KISHI GENJUTSU FTW!



madara in the 6 coffin 

cripple nagato controlling pain

naruto father being minato 

kishi always goes for the obvious

all the paths lead to obito deal with it


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 4, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Remember when everyone said that the real Pain was in fact a crippled Nagato?  Remember when they said Minato was Naruto's dad?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Obito is Tobi I wouldn't be surprised if Obito himself killed Rin.  Likely through some influence, arrangement or direct involvement of Madara.  It would be a rip of Star Wars kind of lol but I can see an old broken Madara doing something like to obtain an apprentice.


----------



## Kaim (Aug 4, 2012)

I dunno if it's been said already but...

Tobi can't have Obito's body. Tobi fought Minato, around that time Kakashi and Obito were still KIDS, meaning Tobi had a grown man body...Obito's body would still be like a kids around that time.


----------



## forkandspoon (Aug 4, 2012)

*Where Tobi got the idea to call himself Madara....*

old to stay out of Naruto's way



This ninja almost shit himself when he thought Kakashi was the white fang... Despite the white fang being dead for years....

The power of a name... And Obito witnessing it first hand.....


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Kaim said:


> I dunno if it's been said already but...
> 
> Tobi can't have Obito's body. Tobi fought Minato, around that time Kakashi and Obito were still KIDS, meaning Tobi had a grown man body...Obito's body would still be like a kids around that time.


Umm, no.

They would have been around 15-16.

It's far from impossible for Obito to have been that tall.

Just look at Kakashi! He had a serious growth spurt, lol! And Obito was taller than Kakashi in Gaiden.

I rest my case.


Doctorsim said:


> What potential?
> 
> He only awakened it at stage 2 and used it maybe twice before dieing.
> 
> How does that showcase any sort of potential? Let alone hint at what his MS ability would've been.


lol wut.

You said it your self. He awakened his sharingan at 2 tomoe instead of one. How is that not impressive? What does how many times he used it have to do with anything?

Also, his MS ability is S/T. 

So, yes, he had a lot of potential. Next time try to find arguments why he doesn't have potential(which he does) instead of taking huge things and trying to make them sound like they're unimpressive(which they're not).



TobiUchiha5941 said:


> Does anyone still think its the elder son? or has that theory been forgotten.


The theory used to be popular but not so much anymore, I guess.

Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu and I'm sure Rikudou would have told the names to his own sons.





Laocoon said:


> Note: I don't know any Japanese, so this is pretty much speculation on my part
> 
> So yeah, just basing it off the name, Tobi could easily be a play on Tobirama, despite that latter is written in kanji or w/e. Further, apparently "tobira" means doors, which would seem to play into the whole space-time abilities of Tobi (doors into other dimensions, etc.). Not to mention that Tobirama was allegedly a master of space-time ninjutsu.
> 
> ...


Tobi means "Kite". This is a reference to the Tengu of Japanese mythology, which Kishi heavily bases the manga off of.

For the person who said it means Ten Tails. That's just a really contrived way of thinking about it. It's surely not the intended meaning as the Ten Tails is referred to in the manga as the Juubi.

About Tobirama, his eye shape doesn't match Tobi's. His hair color and eyebrows are also different. And Tobi's eyelids are much more pronounced than Tobirama's. And Minato also stated that Tobi's S/T was *better* than Tobirama's.

About claiming to be Madara, well that was just to start the war.


----------



## atduncan (Aug 4, 2012)

Wow. you really made a thread for this? You know what. cuz im just gonna say this once...

HES NOT OBITO


----------



## MYJC (Aug 4, 2012)

Well, it's confirmed that Tobi knows/knew Madara and was carrying out his plan. And that he was apparently supposed to have Nagato revive Madara at some point. 

So, more than likely he was Madara's subordinate and got the idea from Madara himself, ie. "use my name to further my plans, and revive me when the time is right".


----------



## Kaim (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Umm, no.
> 
> They would have been around 15-16.
> 
> ...



Just tried to do the math.  If Kakashi was 26-27 pre time skip, he's 28-29 now.  How old is Naruto, 16? or 17? That's when Naruto was born, and that's when Minato fought the "Masked Boy"... minus that by 28-29 and you get either 12 or 13...I know Itachi was a big 13 but not a kid who's body got crushed by a fuckin rock.  

But based on your beliefs...there was this 12-13 year old kid with a deep ass voice that tamed the ninetails, bested Minato, read the Uchiha tablet, AND gave some other kid the rinnegan? #TeamObito ftw.  If so, Kishi has splainin' to do


----------



## Sareth (Aug 4, 2012)

Why does every "Tobi's Identity Thread" have sucky polls? I mean, where the fuck is the Elder Son option, for instance?


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Kaim said:


> Just tried to do the math.  If Kakashi was 26-27 pre time skip, he's 28-29 now.  How old is Naruto, 16? or 17? That's when Naruto was born, and that's when Minato fought the "Masked Boy"... minus that by 28-29 and you get either 12 or 13...I know Itachi was a big 13 but not a kid who's body got crushed by a fuckin rock.


You did the math wrong. Kakashi was 26 at the start of the series, but he was closer to 27. And Naruto was 12 at the start of the series. Putting Kakashi at 14-15 during the attack.

Now, according to math done by a user called Sareth regarding Obito and Kakashi's birthday's, Obito was a little older than Kakashi and thus would have been older during the attack. Which puts Obito at 15-16 during the attack. Besides, Tobi even looked like a teenager at the time.  



> But based on your beliefs...there was this 15-16 year old teen with a deep ass voice that tamed Kurama, fought Minato and got his ass kicked, and read the Uchiha tablet.


Fixed.



> AND gave some other kid the rinnegan? #TeamObito ftw.  If so, Kishi has splainin' to do


Easy to explain. Madara did it.

Try to come up with something better than Tobi's words when he was posing as Madara.


			
				Sareth said:
			
		

> Why does every "Tobi's Identity Thread" have sucky polls? I mean, where the fuck is the Elder Son option, for instance?


Try "Other"

Besides, how can it be the Elder Son? Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu. There's no way Rikudou wouldn't have told the names to his sons.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

Kaim said:


> Just *tried* to do the math.  If Kakashi was 26-27 pre time skip, he's 28-29 now.  How old is Naruto, 16? or 17? That's when Naruto was born, and that's when Minato fought the "Masked Boy"... minus that by 28-29 and you get either 12 or 13...I know Itachi was a big 13 but not a kid who's body got crushed by a fuckin rock.
> 
> But based on your beliefs...there was this 12-13 year old kid with a deep ass voice that tamed the ninetails, bested Minato, read the Uchiha tablet, AND gave some other kid the rinnegan? #TeamObito ftw.  If so, Kishi has splainin' to do



Your math sucks. Kakashi is 29-30 and Naruto is 15-16 ''minus'' it by 15-16 and you get 14-15, and Obito is older than Kakashi so 15-16


----------



## Sareth (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Try "Other"


Yeah, because you wouldn't get irritated if "Obito" wasn't an option, right?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Besides, how can it be the Elder Son? Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu. There's no way Rikudou wouldn't have told the names to his sons.


Is that your only argument? Rikudou's sons might not have been as close to the Bijuu as he was. At least this "plot hole" will be a lot easier for Kishi to cover than the ones in the "100% Obito" theory.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Yeah, because you wouldn't get irritated if "Obito" wasn't an option, right?
> 
> 
> Is that your only argument? Rikudou's sons might not have been as close to the Bijuu as he was. At least this "plot hole" will be a lot easier for Kishi to cover than the ones in the "100% Obito" theory.



ObitoUchiha111 doesn't know what he's talking about, he lists his wild speculations and thinks and talks like they're facts. He talks like it's confirmed that Tobi has MS and that Madara taught him.. Elder son is more likely anyways.

Obito was like 3 years old and he knew everything and fought Minato.. Sounds believable.


----------



## Talis (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> ObitoUchiha111 doesn't know what he's talking about, he lists his wild speculations and thinks and talks like they're facts. He talks like it's confirmed that Tobi has MS and that Madara taught him.. Elder son is more likely anyways.
> 
> Obito was like 3 years old and he knew everything and fought Minato.. Sounds believable.


Its pretty clear by now after Kishi keept blackened out his MS design for like 84398348934343894 times.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> ObitoUchiha111 doesn't know what he's talking about, he lists his wild speculations and thinks and talks like they're facts. He talks like it's confirmed that Tobi has MS and that Madara taught him.. Elder son is more likely anyways.
> 
> Obito was like 3 years old and he knew everything and fought Minato.. Sounds believable.


Hey! It's pretty obvious that Tobi is using Obito's right eye, and that he's got MS. It's also quite obvious that he's using Obito's body.

Obito would have been about 15 years old when he fought Minato, so that part makes sense. However, him saying "Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?" does not. That's not what a 15 year old teenager would have said.

I believe that Tobi is someone using Obito's body, and would prefer it if it was the Elder Son. That would make a lot of sense, considering all of his knowledge about the past, that no one else could possibly have known, unless it was all written on the Uchiha tablet (which I find highly unlikely). Tobi's talking about the Rikudou era as if though he was alive at that time.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 4, 2012)

No, Minato asked him if he was Madara as he assumed Madara was the only ninja capable of such actions.

Minato "I can think of only one shinobi capable of doing this... Are you Madara Uchiha? No, you cant be he's long dead"

Tobi "Oh I dont know about that"

Hence forth Tobi adopted Madara's name and it was all Minato's fault


----------



## Chibason (Aug 4, 2012)

We dont know if he ever used the name Madara before he met Minato or not, but it's likely that he used it at least since then.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 4, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Is that your only argument? Rikudou's sons might not have been as close to the Bijuu as he was. At least this "plot hole" will be a lot easier for Kishi to cover than the ones in the "100% Obito" theory.




how about the fact that if elder son is alive then so should the youngest son. 2 sons alive? no way bra. Also they should be piles of bones in the ground




obito theory has no plot holes   The timeline inconsistency can be explained.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 4, 2012)

son_michael said:


> how about the fact that if elder son is alive then so should the youngest son. 2 sons alive? no way bra.


Flawless logic right here. You just got negged.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 4, 2012)

atduncan said:


> Wow. you really made a thread for this? You know what. cuz im just gonna say this once...
> 
> HES NOT OBITO



you can say it till your blue in the face. Doesn't mean he's not obito.



on topic: Tobi obviously used madara's name to strike fear into his enemies but I also believe he wants another identity other than his own. He wants to discard his true identity because he hates what he was/used to be.


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 4, 2012)

Holes?
May I just present one: Obito is a dumb kid, presented with a intelligence of 1 (in the NARUTO Hiden: Tō no Sho). Even Naruto had 1,5 - how could this brat develop into Tobi? And even if you find solutions for that, it feels incredible forced. 

Also why would a 15 year old say "Do you know how long I've waited for this?" anyway.. 

Anyway the shitstorm will be so incredible big.


----------



## Revolution (Aug 4, 2012)

Zest least Tobito beats Tobi is Orochimaru


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 4, 2012)

Again, I assume Tobi is Obito in this post. This is a good way to see if what I write makes sense. I'm not a Tobito tard btw.

Just a little something that could justify Tobito...

What if he somehow got trapped in that dimension of his for several years? We know very little about it. Maybe this dimension somehow lets the user see time in a diffrent way, thus somehow experience all of time at once?

It's far fetched though, and it raises more questions as well.

Another thing is time travel...

Also, past (long hair/Madara?) Tobi can't be Obito. I think this is pretty much settled (but may in some vague way be true after all: time travel, etc). In that case Obito must have known that past Tobi recruited Kisame, and how he did it/acted towards Kisame. Obito revealed himself to Kisame as he knew Kisame would immediately recognise him. Kisame certainly recognised Obito as Past Tobi, which means Obito must have done this to deceive Kisame. Given Tobi's manipulating, lying nature it could make sense, but he must've also used some sort of henge to fool Kisame. Unless Obito just happen to look exactly like past Tobi.
But I see no reason to deceive Kisame. If Obito knew about past Tobi's recruitment of Kisame, he should also know why he accepted past Tobi's offer. Kisame liked the idea of Eternal Tsukuyomi. If he still worked towards the same goal, why deceive him? Trust?

This has the same nature as lying to a dying Konan, and lying to Kabuto who had just showed him his trump card. At least it would show a consistent (but odd) mind. It would seem like he lie to himself to keep his idea of reality true.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 4, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Its pretty clear by now after Kishi keept blackened out his MS design for like 84398348934343894 times.



That doesn't mean that Tobi is Obito.. He could be using his eye, and I'm not denying that.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

son_michael said:


> how about the fact that if elder son is alive then so should the youngest son. 2 sons alive? no way bra. Also they should be piles of bones in the ground
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So by your logic, Sasuke should be dead because Itachi is dead. And the theory has no plot holes, shall we explain again? Madara and Tobi know each other, Nagato awakened his Rinnegan and a young age and Madara died shortly after that. Nagato is OLDER than Obito, but Nagato is YOUNGER than Tobi, it only makes sense because Obito didn't become ''Tobi'' until he was 15-16 and Madara was already dead.

Conclusion Madara never knew Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Yeah, because you wouldn't get irritated if "Obito" wasn't an option, right?


Not really, no.




> Is that your only argument? Rikudou's sons might not have been as close to the Bijuu as he was. At least this "plot hole" will be a lot easier for Kishi to cover than the ones in the "100% Obito" theory.


Mistshadow has already given a great explanation why jacamo's "plotholes" are not plotholes.

Also, how did the Elder Son live so long? Why did he wait until just recently to enact his plan? Why does Tobi seem to be under Madara in the plan?

Why was the Elder Son introduced 200 chapters after Tobi? Why was he only shown in one panel of he was meant to be important?



Thebaxman said:


> ObitoUchiha111 doesn't know what he's talking about, he lists his wild speculations and thinks and talks like they're facts. He talks like it's confirmed that Tobi has MS and that Madara taught him.. Elder son is more likely anyways.


This is coming from a guy who thinks Tobi could be Kagami!



> Obito was like 3 years old and he knew everything and fought Minato.. Sounds believable.


..........

If Minato trained Obito and Minato died when Obito was 3, then how the *FUCK* did he train Obito?!

Use your head.



Mayaki said:


> Holes?
> May I just present one: Obito is a dumb kid, presented with a intelligence of 1 (in the NARUTO Hiden: Tō no Sho). Even Naruto had 1,5 - how could this brat develop into Tobi? And even if you find solutions for that, it feels incredible forced.


Lol, it's the only theory that's _not_ forced. besides, _maaaayyyyybe_ Izuna.

And dumb? lol, re-read Gaiden.



> Also why would a 15 year old say "Do you know how long I've waited for this?" anyway..


I'd say that too if I'd waited 2-3 years for a roughly one hour event...



> Anyway the shitstorm will be so incredible big.


Because people won't be able to accept that they were wrong.



Sarahmint said:


> Zest least Tobito beats Tobi is Orochimaru


What?



Thebaxman said:


> So by your logic, Sasuke should be dead because Itachi is dead. And the theory has no plot holes, shall we explain again? Madara and Tobi know each other, Nagato awakened his Rinnegan and a young age and Madara died shortly after that. Nagato is OLDER than Obito, but Nagato is YOUNGER than Tobi, it omakes sense because Obito didn't become ''Tobi'' until he was 15-16 and Madara was already dead.
> 
> Conclusion Madara never knew Obito.


Nice post, actually...

I'll have to give this more thought before coming up with an answer...

EDIT: Oh, now I know. Madara could have given Nagato the rinnegan some other way or he gave Nagato his eyes and transplanted new ones.


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 4, 2012)

lmaoo gtfo with the tobito threads. madara told him to use his name so that way tobi could be taken serious by people


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> EDIT: Oh, now I know. Madara could have given Nagato the rinnegan some other way or he gave Nagato his eyes and transplanted new ones.



No you don't know.. How can you know and then you start guessing? Anyways, I made a mistake in my post, what I meant to say was that Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan, and Madara only knew Nagato when he was a kid.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Mistshadow has already given a great explanation why jacamo's "plotholes" are not plotholes.


Jacamo's plot holes? I don't know what you're talking about. It would be kind of you to link me to these plot holes, as well as Mistshadow's explanation.

My issue with your theory is that Tobi's acting like a 70+ year old man, and has knowledge that Obito could never dream of having. Why did Obito say "Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?" during the Kyuubi attack? 1-2 years is not a very long time. Also, how can he talk about the Rikudou era in such detail, if he wasn't there at the time? Some of it might be written on the Uchiha Tablet, but all of it? I'm not convinced.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, how did the Elder Son live so long?


Body swapping, just like Orochimaru. As I've said, I believe he's currently residing inside Obito's body.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why did he wait until just recently to enact his plan?


Maybe he had to, for some reason, or maybe he hasn't had the plan for that long. I really don't know yet, but I'm sure Kishi can explain this to us, if he wants to.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why does Tobi seem to be under Madara in the plan?


Does he? I don't know about that. Tobi's acting like he's the leader. It's difficult to know who's under who until we've seen them talking to each other.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why was the Elder Son introduced 200 chapters after Tobi? Why was he only shown in one panel of he was meant to be important?


The same can be said about Kagami and Izuna, so I don't think this should count as an argument, which is why I won't bother trying to come up with a good reason.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 4, 2012)

It's like the Tobitoers are so desperate nowadays they'll latch onto anything, no matter how far-fetched, and make a thinly disguised Tobito thread out of it. There's an official one for a reason.

Also, *what did this have to do with the latest chapter*?!


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> No you don't know.. How can you know and then you start guessing? Anyways, I made a mistake in my post, what I meant to say was that Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan, and Madara only knew Nagato when he was a kid.


I didn't mean that I knew the actual explanation, just that I had come up with a possible one.



Sareth said:


> Jacamo's plot holes? I don't know what you're talking about. It would be kind of you to link me to these plot holes, as well as Mistshadow's explanation.


I'm not even gonna bother. -_-



> My issue with your theory is that Tobi's acting like a 70+ year old man, and has knowledge that Obito could never dream of having. Why did Obito say "Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?" during the Kyuubi attack? 1-2 years is not a very long time.


I DO have an explanation. But don't feel like typing it out right now. Might add it later. 





> Also, how can he talk about the Rikudou era in such detail, if he wasn't there at the time? Some of it might be written on the Uchiha Tablet, but all of it? I'm not convinced.


Why couldn't what Tobi said have been written on the tablet. he only talked about the Juubi and the sons fighting. I'm sure that at least that much was written on the tablet. 




> Body swapping, just like Orochimaru. As I've said, I believe he's currently residing inside Obito's body.


And you know that he possessed this jutsu how? I guess it's possible but, eh....

Would be anti-climactic if it's just someone using someone else's body. it would ruin the point of the mask. And it would be an unoriginal twist.

And why would the Elder Son take the body of a crushed Uchiha teen?




> Maybe he had to, for some reason, or maybe he haven't had the plan for that long. I really don't know yet, but I'm sure Kishi can explain this to us, if he wants to.


What reason would he have had?

And how could he have not had the plan? It wouldn't have been that hard to concoct.

Why would the Elder Son bother staying alive for A THOUSAND+ years if he didn't even have the plan by then. It just doesn't make sense.



> Does he? I don't know about that. Tobi's acting like he's the leader. It's difficult to know who's under who until we've seen them talking to each other.


You really think Madara's gonna let himself be under someone in a plan?




> The same can be said about Kagami and Izuna, so I don't think this should count as an argument, which is why I won't bother trying to come up with a good reason.


That's exactly why I'm against the Kagami theory  as well. If he or the Elder Son were meant to be Tobi, they would have been brought up more. Izuna I suppose wasn't introduced THAT late after him. If he IS Izuna, then he was introduced at the right time.

I still favor Obito though. He is after all, the only Tobi candidate to have appeared before tobi and the only one to appear in more than three panels. Hell, he was in 6 chapters!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> So by your logic, Sasuke should be dead because Itachi is dead. And the theory has no plot holes, shall we explain again? Madara and Tobi know each other, Nagato awakened his Rinnegan and a young age and Madara died shortly after that. Nagato is OLDER than Obito, but Nagato is YOUNGER than Tobi, it only makes sense because Obito didn't become ''Tobi'' until he was 15-16 and Madara was already dead.
> 
> Conclusion Madara never knew Obito.



1. It's never said that he literally gave Nagato his own eyes.  
2.  It's never said that he literally gave Nagato Madara's eyes.
3.  Tobi is an unreliable narrator since the concept of giving Nagato eyes was under the impression that Tobi was Madara.  Tobi is not Madara thus if you can accept the fact that he lied about being Madara than everything else he said can be a lie.  Just like influencing Yahiko Damage doesn't appear reliable because he was like this as a kid prior to being a ninja.


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. It's never said that he literally gave Nagato his own eyes.
> 2.  It's never said that he literally gave Nagato Madara's eyes.


It's heavily implied, though. Tobi says that the Rinnegan "were his to begin with." So, then, if he was posing as Madara, and the Rinnegan were Madara's to begin with, wouldn't that then mean that Madara literally gave his eyes to Nagato?

Also, by this time Kabuto knew Tobi wasn't Madara, so why say that? I'm sure it could be a smart remark but this could also be a heavy indicator that he's Izuna.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 4, 2012)

I think Tobi is Juubi. 

I know its ridiculous, but when the juubi was introduced I liked it when this theory popped up and if there are people who believe in Tobito with religious devotion why I shall not believe in my own inprobable theory until there is sure proof it is not possible(except those who exist a priori like lack of a body, timeline, etc).
Oddly until now it did not really happened and it is a very strange coincedence that every time Tobi actually talked about juubi or the moon eyes plan it was with his enemies (and Kabuto) where you can usually expect the masked liar to lie like he has never lied before but not his allies or himself.
While i am maybe wrong about his identity im sure there is more about his plan (and the fate of the juubi) than we know.


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> I think Tobi is Juubi.
> 
> I know its ridiculous, but when the juubi was introduced I liked it when this theory popped up and if there are people who believe in Tobito with religious devotion why I shall not believe in my own inprobable theory until there is sure proof it is not possible(except those who exist a priori like lack of a body, timeline, etc).
> Oddly until now it did not really happened and it is a very strange coincedence that every time Tobi actually talked about juubi or the moon eyes plan it was with his enemies (and Kabuto) where you can usually expect the masked liar to lie like he has never lied before but not his allies or himself.
> While i am maybe wrong about his identity im sure there is more about his plan (and the fate of the juubi) than we know.


Um, no.

Tobi said he wanted to revive "it" in it's perfect form, not that he wanted to revive himself in his perfect form.

In fact, why would he want to revive himself if if he's alive that would mean he's already been revived.

Also, the same problems apply to this theory as the Elder Son theory. 

Who becomes a jinchuriki of themselves?


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 4, 2012)

Sub Space

not bad, though Izuna was too predictable.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Um, no.
> 
> Tobi said he wanted to revive "it" in it's perfect form, not that he wanted to revive himself in his perfect form.
> 
> ...



I said I know it is unlikely.
But just like I said before these are things he said to his enemies not to people who would know if this is true or not.
And do you really believe that someone who is revealed to have lied beyond anyones expectiation( which is by the way is one of the main reasonings you use to support your own theory against his contradicting statements) to suddenly stop lieing and acting just because his cover was blown up?
A consumate liar and actor he is i would expect him to simply pull a new cover out his ass and move on like nothing important happened.

My point is not to convert anyone to my own faulty opinion about his identity but to remind people that maybe not only his face is beneath a mask but also what he really is and his true intentions.


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> I said I know it is unlikely.
> But just like I said before these are things he said to his enemies not to people who would know if this is true or not.
> And do you really believe that someone who is revealed to have lied beyond anyones expectiation( which is by the way is one of the main reasonings you use to support your own theory against his contradicting statements) to suddenly stop lieing and acting just because his cover was blown up?
> A consumate liar and actor he is i would expect him to simply pull a new cover out his ass and move on like nothing important happened.
> ...


Why would he lie about Tsuki no Me, though?

Especially since he said he wanted to do Tsuki no Me during and after people thought him to be Madara.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 4, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> I said I know it is unlikely.
> But just like I said before these are things he said to his enemies not to people who would know if this is true or not.
> And do you really believe that someone who is revealed to have lied beyond anyones expectiation( which is by the way is one of the main reasonings you use to support your own theory against his contradicting statements) to suddenly stop lieing and acting just because his cover was blown up?
> A consumate liar and actor he is i would expect him to simply pull a new cover out his ass and move on like nothing important happened.
> ...



No. Tobi being the Juubi isn't even a possibility. There's absolutely no chance of Tobi being the Juubi. It would make no sense. Tobi himself is trying to resurrect the Juubi. So if Tobi is the Juubi, that means he's trying to resurrect himself? That doesn't make any sense.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 4, 2012)

The Obito theory is the strongest atm.  Another thematic connection that I found:

In the long line from Hiruzen to Naruto, there is always a student that turns against their teacher, most of them eventually leading to their death.

Hiruzen: Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade. Orochimaru turned against Hiruzen and killed him.
Jiraiya: Minato and those other 2 no one knows about plus the Rain orphans. Nagato turned against Jiraiya (Konan didn't quite fight him, eh) and killed him.
Minato: Kakashi, Obito, Rin. In the assumption Tobi = Obito, he turned against Minato and killed him.
Kakashi: Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke. Sasuke turned against Kakashi and showed clearly that he could kill him.
History repeats itself. We might even have a reprieve because Sasuke is supposed to break the cycle.


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> The Obito theory is the strongest atm.  Another thematic connection that I found:
> 
> In the long line from Hiruzen to Naruto, there is always a student that turns against their teacher, most of them eventually leading to their death.
> 
> ...


This is one of the major reasons I support the Tobito theory. The strong parallels.

They're just way too strong and evident to be ignored, considering there are even more than the ones you've listed.

I never saw why people ignore them in favor of "timeline inconsistencies" which could be easily explained.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would he lie about Tsuki no Me, though?
> 
> Especially since he said he wanted to do Tsuki no Me during and after people thought him to be Madara.



Yes he said that but who says that the tsuki no me he talked about is really 100 % that what he is really going to do maybe he uses amaretsu instead of braincontrol hiding from his allies that he is an omnicidial maniac who thinks only death of everything is true peace or it was the real madara who had this generic doomsday like idea and tobi only stated he follow his plan to get him do what he want and is trying to pull something like in code geass while removing the possible threat through a reassembled juubi (technically it is not reviving if you just put pieces back togehter who were just separated and not outright killed before. BTW as magical being we cant even be sure if it was alive to begin with ). Or he really is the juubi who hides behind it so he can revive his former self and then let it appear that he as tobi has failed and died so he can leave this world to not be bothered anymore by the idiotic and shortliving humans. Who knows?

What I notice that Tobi has been shown to be smart and deceiving so why should he follow a rather simple, threatening and possibly faulty plan he announced to his enemies even before he have started it. Sure it can be explained afterwards but the way it is shown makes me too suspicious of it to accept it as truth now.

If you thought of it and come to the conclusion he is Obito and everything he says about the plan is genuine then do it. Maybe you are right and it is me who sees ghosts. 

I really just want to say my opinion before it becomes obsolete even if im as wrong as i can be.

Edit: And this parallels who convinces you is exactly that what turns me away from it because i think as author you should establish a pattern but dont follow it slavish in any possible situation .


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 4, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This is one of the major reasons I support the Tobito theory. The strong parallels.
> 
> They're just way too strong and evident to be ignored, considering there are even more than the ones you've listed.
> 
> I never saw why people ignore them in favor of "timeline inconsistencies" which could be easily explained.



Not to mention that each one of the one's betrayed had a student that went on to either become Hokage, or be considered for it. That includes Kakashi, in my opinion.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 4, 2012)

Why would Obito have a grudge against the Uchiha ? Unless Tobi was lying about that too....


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 4, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> Why would Obito have a grudge against the Uchiha ? Unless Tobi was lying about that too....



Tobi was pretending to be Madara, in my opinion, so I'd imagine that it was another lie.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> He was pretending to be Madara, in my opinion so I'd imagine that it was a lie.



Geeez, everything that is against Tobito ends up being that Tobi lied


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Geeez, everything that is against Tobito ends up being that Tobi lied



because he has never lied, right?


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Geeez, everything that is against Tobito ends up being that Tobi lied



Just my opinion.


----------



## Talis (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Geeez, everything that is against Tobito ends up being that Tobi lied


And where exactly has it been pointed that it was Tobi which had a grudge?
The whole story was about Madara, Tobi never showed even once in the flashback neither was he the long haired masked man.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And where exactly has it been pointed that it was Tobi which had a grudge?
> The whole story was about Madara, Tobi never showed even once in the flashback neither *was he the long haired masked man*.



Really? Show me the proof. Your sig even states that you don't know if it's true. Get the fuck out


----------



## NW (Aug 4, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> Yes he said that but who says that the tsuki no me he talked about is really 100 % that what he is really going to do maybe he uses amaretsu instead of braincontrol hiding from his allies that he is an omnicidial maniac who thinks only death of everything is true peace or it was the real madara who had this generic doomsday like idea and tobi only stated he follow his plan to get him do what he want and is trying to pull something like in code geass while removing the possible threat through a reassembled juubi (technically it is not reviving if you just put pieces back togehter who were just separated and not outright killed before. BTW as magical being we cant even be sure if it was alive to begin with ). Or he really is the juubi who hides behind it so he can revive his former self and then let it appear that he as tobi has failed and died so he can leave this world to not be bothered anymore by the idiotic and shortliving humans. Who knows?
> 
> What I notice that Tobi has been shown to be smart and deceiving so why should he follow a rather simple, threatening and possibly faulty plan he announced to his enemies even before he have started it. Sure it can be explained afterwards but the way it is shown makes me too suspicious of it to accept it as truth now.
> 
> ...


...............



> Edit: And this parallels who convinces you is exactly that what turns me away from it because i think as author you should establish a pattern but dont follow it slavish in any possible situation .


He's not following it "slavishly". He's following it to get a message across.



Tobitobi said:


> Not to mention that each one of the one's betrayed had a student that went on to either become Hokage, or be considered for it. That includes Kakashi, in my opinion.


Hmm, interesting.



Moon Fang said:


> Why would Obito have a grudge against the Uchiha ? Unless Tobi was lying about that too....


*shrugs*

Maybe Madara convinced him the Uchiha were responsible for Rin's death.



Thebaxman said:


> Geeez, everything that is against Tobito ends up being that Tobi lied


'Tis the sad truth...

I mean, I support the theory but I can see where you're coming from...


----------



## ch1p (Aug 4, 2012)

Tobi is Obito

-> relevant to Kakashi (& Gai, as they are BBFs ).
-> relevant to Naruto.

Tobi is Izuna

-> relevant to Sasuke.

Guess who isn't fighting Tobi when his reveal is imminent.

Tobi is Izuna with Obito's eye

-> relevant to Kakashi somewhat, considering just the isn't that much of a big deal.
-> relevant to Sasuke, who isn't there.

Tobi is Izuna + Obito (split personalities)

-> relevant to everybody.  ...It isn't happening.

I don't get the 'TIMELINE DOESN'T FIT'.


*Spoiler*: _TIMELINE_ 





```
Hashirama and Madara form the Leaf -> more than 65 years from ATM.
HIR~6					Team Tobirama is formed. -> from the look of it, they're probably 6
HIR18 | JIR00				Jiraiya is born. :yay
HIR24 | JIR06				Team Hiruzen formation.
					Second Shinobi War (vs Hanzo, finding of rain orphans)
					*red highlights reach halfway down his face
HIR__ | JIR__ | MIN10			Team Minato formation
					*red highlights are down his face. -> this is going to be retconned. notice how orochimaru & anko are shown in a panel after the formation, even though according to the highlights, Orochimaru would have left by now.
HIR54 | JIR36 | ANK10			Orochimaru takes Anko as a student.
					Orochimaru leaves the Leaf (before Minato dies.)
					*red streaks come down his face.
HIR55 | JIR37 | ANK11 | KAK~13		Kakashi Gaiden (could be before or after Orochimaru leaves the village)
HIR56 | JIR38 | ANK12 | KAK~14		Naruto is born. Minato / Kushina die.
HIR68 | JIR50 | ANK24 | KAK~26		Part I
_____ | JIR54 | ANK27 | KAK~29			Part II
```

Let's assume Hashirama / Madara are 22 when they form the Leaf (and Team Hiruzen is formed in that year, for the purpose of this exercise). Then that means that Madara, if he was alive, would be at the ripe age of 87. HOWEVER, at the time of the Kakashi Gaiden, he'd be about 72. He's not that old, considering this manga, Hiruzen was Danzo and the Elders are 72 at the moment. He could have met Obito and then died (for Kishi's claim that they know each other). I find Orochimaru leaving the village a bit before suspicious as well.

What doesn't fit?




Tobi is a liar to all things concerning Madara. He's impersonating him after all and with Zetsu being able to record _everything_ (like a videocamera ), he can know all about Madara if he's been recording for a long time. The only thing that doesn't fit would be Konan. She was dying. Then again, Tobi is a sick bastard liar who likes to play and manipulate people. Arsehole to the max. Or maybe he as just playing his Madara role there when he says that (and the same for Minato's quip)? Everything that Tobi says about Madara is true, but he isn't Madara, he's just impersonating him.

Another thing about Nagato and Nagato's Rinnegan. Even if Tobi isn't lying, what if he's impersonating Madara at that point? Seems to me that this could fit:


Izuna loses his eyes and dies.
Madara takes Izuna's eyes, stores his somewhere in case he needs spare eyes, because he's not a dumbass. 
Madara researches on Rikudo. Finds the next best thing after a Senju that he can experiement on (Nagato) and gives him the eyes that he had kept.
Later on, with the results of experiment and some more research, he gets Rinnegan for himself, too.
Dies from old age.


*Spoiler*: _massive tangent on Madara / Nagato, unrelated to Tobi's identifcation_ 



So I was stewing about Nagato's eyes being Madara's and then something clicked. For those who don't know, the  (shame on you if you don't know this). However, notice how they are the lower six realms and that there are four more, which are considered to be superior. I always thought Uzumaki as Senju relatives was shoehorned in because Kishimoto only came up with the destiny bullshit for Naruto when the character started becoming irrelevant. BUT WHAT IF IT ISN'T A LAZY TACK IN? What if Senju, as rightful clan heirs from the younger child, are the only ones who are 'perfect' heirs and Uzumaki are somehow 'imperfect' heirs? That would actually exlain why Nagato only has the six lower realms when according to Buddhism there are four more! He's Uzumaki and not Senju, because Madara had no Senju to experiment on at the time, so Nagato's like Rikudo lite and only accesses the lower realms. It explains so many things, like why Orochimaru didn't consider that the Rikudo secrets were unlocked even though he had Karin! It explains why Nagato was owned by the Gedo Mazo, was pierced by all those rods and became anoretic and having to fight from the cave, while Tobi can summon it without trouble, furthermore why Kishimoto says Madara > all and has no weaknesses! when Madara did obtain his Rinnegan, he obtained it completely due to Senju DNA and Tobi does have Senju DNA on him too, so when he stole Madara's eyes back, he got complete Rinnegan as well. oooohhhh it shits on Naruto as destiny child that I loath so much too (Neji, you've been redeemed!), I love it.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 4, 2012)

Tobi is Akamaru's father.


----------



## Mateush (Aug 4, 2012)

Look at this cover:


You can see that bandage covers almost all. What for reason? I think he did something with his face after he got the Rinnegan. Well, we'll know when the mask comes off.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 4, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Look at this cover:
> 
> 
> You can see that bandage covers almost all.


Are you saying there's another mask underneath? 

Uh-oh.


----------



## Talis (Aug 4, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Look at this cover:
> 
> 
> You can see that bandage covers almost all. What for reason? I think he did something with his face after he got the Rinnegan. Well, we'll know when the mask comes off.


 Pretty interesting.
But if you follow the bandage that should even cover his eyes right?
Unless it's some kind of goggles.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 4, 2012)

Obito is impossible - major timeline problems

reference my sig for Obito plotholes


----------



## Talis (Aug 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Obito is impossible - major timeline problems
> 
> reference my sig for Obito plotholes


Surely will do after Tobito gets revealed soon.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 4, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Tobi is Obito
> 
> -> relevant to Kakashi (& Gai, as they are BBFs ).
> -> relevant to Naruto.
> ...



Timeline doesnt fit, Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan, he died when Nagato was still a kid.

Nagato is older than Obito

Nagato is younger than Tobi

We know this because Kishi confirmed that Tobi and Madara know each other. Obito was not born when Madara died so they don't know each other


----------



## Talis (Aug 4, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Timeline doesnt fit, Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan, he died when Nagato was still a kid.
> 
> Nagato is older than Obito
> 
> ...


To bad you cant say its confirmed, the only thing Madara said was that the brat grew up which can means thousand of stuffs, like Madara dying without meeting the adult Nagato.

The Akatuski was originally created for the purpose of reviving the Ten tails.
Like tobi talked in Madara's perspective he told Yahiko to create Akatuski for that reason.
Why did Madara work around to get the rinnegan?
For the Gedou Mazou obviously which implies that it was his original plan to revive the Ten tails and like Kabuto said ''i dont know if the fake Madara will stick with the plan'', all of these stuffs points out that the Ten Tails was Madara's original plan which also means that he created the Akatsuki for this reason, which also means that he was alife when Yahiko was an adult teen.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 4, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Look at this cover:
> 
> 
> You can see that bandage covers almost all. What for reason? I think he did something with his face after he got the Rinnegan. Well, we'll know when the mask comes off.



That isn't a bandage. It's just a piece of cloth that Tobi wrapped around the top of his head to make it circular and round so his mask could comfortably fit on his head. He covered his hair using that cloth.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

loool3 said:


> To bad you cant say its confirmed, the only thing Madara said was that the brat grew up which can means thousand of stuffs, like Madara dying without meeting the adult Nagato.



If Madara died before Nagato was an adult, Obito was either:

A) Alive as Obito
B) Not Born

If you think Obito is Tobi, Tobi was first seen when Obito was 15-16, to be an adult you have to be 18.

Nagato is at least 10 years older than Obito, so he would have already been an adult even before Obito graduated from the Ninja Academy. 

Madara knows *TOBI*, so unless you're telling me Obito was Tobi from the age of 7-9 (which he wasn't) you don't make any sense.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 5, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> That isn't a bandage. It's just a piece of cloth that Tobi wrapped around the top of his head to make it circular and round so his mask could comfortably fit on his head. He covered his hair using that cloth.


I'm pretty sure that the cloth is actually a part of the mask itself. I don't see that mask just staying on like that without something holding it. I mean, just look at it.

So basically, the cloth starts on the 2 edges of the mask and when Tobi ties it it keeps the mask tight and secure on his head.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm sorry, but there is no reasonable way for you to say that it is impossible or that plot holes exist, when the specificity of all said situations you use have not be made. we don't know the conditions of any statement tobi made. and until we do, you can't say its impossible that tobi is obito. just like i can't say its 100% tobi is obito. I believe it is, am i happy with it? not really, but that is the direction kishi has been going with hints, not withstanding any timeline, but subtleties and cues that you pay attention to, they are there.
to say they are red herrings is speculation also, its possible they are, but its also just as likely that they are not red herrings.


----------



## Big Mom (Aug 5, 2012)

*Rin is Tobi...More Proof!*

Hi again! Remember when I created my "theory" (100% correct) about Rin being Tobi? Well, I have found more proof!

source See the poll on the side? Rin is listed as an option. SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME!


So to recap:

-Rin was able to take Obito's eye out and put it in Kakashi's skull. Tobi also is good at transfering eyes, as seen by him giving Nagato his eyes, and taking them back and putting them in himself

-Rin was a medical ninja. Tobi is able to generate limbs somehow... coincidence? I think not.

-It was never explained how Rin died....maybe she never did!

-It is quite obvious that Rin is extremely old, but prolongs her life using a secret medical technique. And she uses the same technique Tsunade does... except she makes herself look like a child. 

-Both Tobi and Rin disguised their true selves, Tobi acted goofy and looked up to Deidara, Rin acted like a typically girl

-Rin is highly resistant of Genjutsu...coincidence?

-But why would Rin want to resummon the Juubi? Simple. She is evil. 

-Was it a coincidence that that rock fell on Obito? No. Rin was behind that. 

-So what about the shared dimensions between her and Kakashi?! DUH! They have always been so connected. And maybe Rin somehow recreated Obito's other eye, and that is why her and Kakashi share a dimension!


IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE! DO NOT FIGHT IT!


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm sorry, but there is no reasonable way for you to say that it is impossible or that plot holes exist, when the specificity of all said situations you use have not be made. we don't know the conditions of any statement tobi made. and until we do, you can't say its impossible that tobi is obito. just like i can't say its 100% tobi is obito. I believe it is, am i happy with it? not really, but that is the direction kishi has been going with hints, not withstanding any timeline, but subtleties and cues that you pay attention to, they are there.
> to say they are red herrings is speculation also, its possible they are, but its also just as likely that they are not red herrings.



Yes I just explained why there is a HUGE PLOTHOLE what the fuck is up with you Tobito believers everything that's against Tobito that actually is proof from the manga is always shut down by some thoughtless speculation that they think of. I'm tired of it and when it's not Obito under the mask they should be banned because they don't comprehend anything that has nothing to do with :

A) Tobito
B) Shitty speculation (ex. Obito was Madara's apprentice)
C) Themes with Kishi and Parallels

And has something to do with

A) LOGIC
B) Timeline

Does it not bug you when you give nice information as to how it's not Obito and then they come back with: ''Maybe Madara''... NO.. Madara was DEAD and Obito is a SIDE CHARACTER who was from a SIDE STORY. How is Madara being dead even before Obito ''became Tobi'' not a plot hole?? And on top of that not reasonable to call it a plot hole? How did Madara teach Obito when:

A) Madara was DEAD
B) Obito is under 200 TONS of BOULDERS

If anything it's someone using Obito's body, or just using his eye.. It CAN'T be Obito HIMSELF fuck off with the apprentice shit.

Anti-Tobito
----------------------
- Give good reasons from the MANGA as to why it's not possible for it to be     
Obito, by using what we know we put it together using information from the manga.

Tobito Believers
--------------------
- ''Maybe Madara....''
- ''Why not??''
- ''Obito is parallel to Naruto''
- ''Good Writing''
- ''Theme of Naruto''
- ''Rin made Obito so powerful''
- ''Oh that's against Tobito?? That's because Tobi is lying..''
- ''You don't understand how Kishi writes''
- ''That is not a plothole that is VAGUE''
-  ''This is NOT a coincidence''
- ''Well we already know that.....'' (Only said when it's not even confirmed)

Do you see the difference? They never come up with good reasoning and it's stupid because many on this forum have figured out why it makes no sense for it to be Obito and they come back with SPECULATION. So apparently :

SPECULATION > MANGA FACTS according to Tobito believers.. Nice!


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 5, 2012)

Except they look nothing alike


----------



## Armodullahan (Aug 5, 2012)

Rin's a chick, Tobi's a dude.


----------



## Big Mom (Aug 5, 2012)

Oh, you have seen Tobi's face? And besides, I told you she used the transformation technique.

Wow has everyone but me seen Tobi naked?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Yes I just explained why there is a HUGE PLOTHOLE what the fuck is up with you Tobito believers everything that's against Tobito that actually is proof from the manga is always shut down by some thoughtless speculation that they think of. I'm tired of it and when it's not Obito under the mask they should be banned because they don't comprehend anything that has nothing to do with :
> 
> A) Tobito
> B) Shitty speculation (ex. Obito was Madara's apprentice)
> ...



give me a date when madara died. we don't know. thus you have NO fact. 
it can be shitty speculation, but its a speculation none the less which makes it a possibility. things are left empty for a reason. you cant say vague and then support kagami. thats hypocritic. you can't have it both ways. how did kagami end up with only one of his original eyes? how did kagami unlick the ms? how did kagami find out about nagato? why does kagami hate konoha? how did kagami do all this behind the hokages and danzos backs? why does kagami seem to have connections with kakashi? why would kagami need to pretend to be madara? why does kagami have a zetsu like body? and why is it all bolted up? how did kagami learn so much about madara and fake his death? these are 'plot holes' by your definition. 

its easier fill in information on obito than it is for kagami. poll results disagree with you. LEARN THE DEFINITION OF A POSSIBILITY. Ignorance is not bliss, its freaking annoying. You are forming unreasonable biases. Eliminate those, and realize that there is a possibility, and with a possibility comes the destruction of a plot hole. This is a world where the dead come back to life, people teleport, nukes are shot out of the hands, a 14-15 year old is one of the strongest people in the world, and some people have 5 hearts.

Allow me to educate you:
Bias:
Bias is an inclination to present or hold a partial perspective at the expense of (possibly equally valid) alternatives. A cognitive bias is the human tendency to make systematic decisions in certain circumstances based on cognitive factors rather than evidence. Bias arises from various processes that are sometimes difficult to distinguish. These processes include information-processing shortcuts, motivational factors, and social influence.  Such biases can result from information-processing shortcuts called heuristics. They include errors in judgment, social attribution, and memory. Cognitive biases are a common outcome of human thought, and often drastically skew the reliability of anecdotal and legal evidence. It is a phenomenon studied in cognitive science and social psychology. Some biases reflect a subject's motivation, for example, the desire for a positive self-image leading to Egocentric bias and the avoidance of unpleasant cognitive dissonance. This accounts for the fact that many biases are self-serving. 
YOU are guilty of these two: Self-serving bias is the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures. It may also manifest itself as a tendency for people to evaluate ambiguous information in a way beneficial to their interests.
Belief bias is when one's evaluation of the logical strength of an argument is biased by their belief in the truth or falsity of the conclusion. 
Such biases can result from information-processing shortcuts called heuristics.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> give me a date when madara died. we don't know. thus you have NO fact.
> it can be shitty speculation, but its a speculation none the less which makes it a possibility. things are left empty for a reason. you cant say vague and then support kagami. thats hypocritic. you can't have it both ways. how did kagami end up with only one of his original eyes? how did kagami unlick the ms? how did kagami find out about nagato? why does kagami hate konoha? how did kagami do all this behind the hokages and danzos backs? why does kagami seem to have connections with kakashi? why would kagami need to pretend to be madara? why does kagami have a zetsu like body? and why is it all bolted up? how did kagami learn so much about madara and fake his death? these are 'plot holes' by your definition.
> 
> its easier fill in information on obito than it is for kagami. poll results disagree with you. LEARN THE DEFINITION OF A POSSIBILITY. Ignorance is not bliss, its freaking annoying. You are forming unreasonable biases. Eliminate those, and realize that there is a possibility, and with a possibility comes the destruction of a plot hole. This is a world where the dead come back to life, people teleport, nukes are shot out of the hands, a 14-15 year old is one of the strongest people in the world, and some people have 5 hearts.
> ...



But we know Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan and when Nagato was in his youth. So my timeline plot hole stands


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 5, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Hi again! Remember when I created my "theory" (100% correct) about Rin being Tobi? Well, I have found more proof!
> 
> source See the poll on the side? Rin is listed as an option. SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME!
> 
> ...



Something is seriously wrong with you.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> But we know Madara died shortly after awakening his Rinnegan and when Nagato was in his youth. So my timeline plot hole stands



give me a time on how long shortly is. and how old nagato is. and to an old man, everyone could be considered in youth. Onoki is really old. Saroutobi was too and labeled people as youth who weren't. kakashi was in his youth. 

These things were left intentionally vague so we can not say for 100% who tobi is. Kishi isn't an idiot, he doesn't want us to be 100% certain, he'll give hints so we canspeculate and guess. but he wont give us evidence for that exact reason. so we cant say its kagami. or izuna. so we cant say is obito. so we cant say its zetsu clone. but at the same time much of it doesn't eliminate them from being possible either.
He does eliminate some, but when he does, he does it in as obvious a way as possible as he did with fugaku and shisui.'
dont underestimate kishi. he knows what hes doing in the identity hints and speculations. now whether the identity and reveal is done well or not isn't necessarily going to be good, but he knows the basics of keeping secrets and possibilities open for the audience.

10 years, 15 years is short for someone who is 80 or so. we know madara was probably an old man considering his body wasn't in his prime and had to have specially resurrected to be so. Onoki is still alive, and he wasn't THAT MUCH younger than Madara considering they fought and Onoki didn't look INSANELY young nor did Madara look INSANELY old. But like i said, look.

A plot hole is where something happens and then new data comes in that contradicts the previous set without a possible explanation within the story. It can be an implied explanation as long as it is possible in the stories universe.
As long as a POSSIBLE explanation exists, then it is not a plot hole.

IDK about you, but teleporting, surviving boulders, and being the land itself seem pretty possible in this universe.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> give me a time on how long shortly is. and how old nagato is. and to an old man, everyone could be considered in youth. Onoki is really old. Saroutobi was too and labeled people as youth who weren't. kakashi was in his youth.
> 
> These things were left intentionally vague so we can not say for 100% who tobi is. Kishi isn't an idiot, he doesn't want us to be 100% certain, he'll give hints so we canspeculate and guess. but he wont give us evidence for that exact reason. so we cant say its kagami. or izuna. so we cant say is obito. so we cant say its zetsu clone. but at the same time much of it doesn't eliminate them from being possible either.
> He does eliminate some, but when he does, he does it in as obvious a way as possible as he did with fugaku and shisui.'
> ...



Jiraiya taught the Ame Orphans after the 2nd War for 3 years, after that he taught Minato and Co.

Nagato is around the same age as Minato

Based on the Tobito theory, Obito became Tobi at 15-16 years old. 

If Madara knew Tobito, then Nagato at least was around 25 years old.

Do you think Madara thought that a 25 year old Nagato was a brat and that aging from 25-40 is ''growing up''? If you can give me a good answer as to why you think then I'll accept you as right


----------



## Sci-Fi (Aug 5, 2012)

Whoever the Jounin was that trained genin Gai and his squad would be a better Tobi candidate. Or someone from the 3rds era. Just have to be patient and wait for the big reveal.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 5, 2012)

Sage's elder son.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 5, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Sage's elder son.



To that I would argue that there's no way it could be the Sage's elder son 

Because the Sage's elder son is not, and I repeat, *is not* Tenten.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Nagato is still like 10 years older than Obito -_-

no one can get around this crater of a plothole


----------



## ceralux (Aug 5, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Hi again! Remember when I created my "theory" (100% correct) about Rin being Tobi? Well, I have found more proof!
> 
> source See the poll on the side? Rin is listed as an option. SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME!
> 
> ...



Rin is extremely old? She's Kakashi's age which is barely 30. This theory is the worst. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It's heavily implied, though. Tobi says that the Rinnegan "were his to begin with." So, then, if he was posing as Madara, and the Rinnegan were Madara's to begin with, wouldn't that then mean that Madara literally gave his eyes to Nagato?
> 
> Also, by this time Kabuto knew Tobi wasn't Madara, so why say that? I'm sure it could be a smart remark but this could also be a heavy indicator that he's Izuna.



It was actually what he said to Konan.

What I mean by literally giving him eyes doesn't mean those are Tobi eyes or Madara's eyes.

Think of it as a doctor who said I gave you a kidney transplant.  It doesn't mean he literally had to give his own kidney if he had another donor.   

As seen with Tobi/Madara they're sharingan collectors.  I am sure they would consider the eyes theres once harvested.  If they decided to test the Senju/Uzumaki + Uchiha eyes = Rinnegan theory could they have used Nagato vs. Madara ripping out his eyes or having someone implant his eyes in a random kid after he died.


----------



## Mateush (Aug 5, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm pretty sure that the cloth is actually a part of the mask itself. I don't see that mask just staying on like that without something holding it. I mean, just look at it.
> 
> So basically, the cloth starts on the 2 edges of the mask and when Tobi ties it it keeps the mask tight and secure on his head.



It's possible, though the cloth is different from his previous masks. Anyway, we'll know for sure when the mask comes off.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> It was actually what he said to Konan.
> 
> What I mean by literally giving him eyes doesn't mean those are Tobi eyes or Madara's eyes.
> 
> ...


Tobi said he was "only taking back what was mine to begin with", which strongly implies that Nagato's Rinnegan were Madara's own.

An alternative Tobito response would be the principal-agent idea: Someone might have given Nagato the Rinnegan on Madara's behalf. 

Let's say I ordered my secretary to send a package to the CEO of Company X. If you asked me who sent it, of course I'd say *I* did, not my secretary. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that a similar relationship possibly existed between Madara and Nagato.

Edit: But there's also a great anti-Tobito counterargument against all these ideas. You know what it is?


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

I still think think the constantly falling boulders in the current battle is a big hint to Tobito.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Obito is impossible - major timeline problems
> 
> reference my sig for Obito plotholes







> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi?s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That?s just not feasible.



Eh. Obito's strenght at the time wasn't because he had great jutsus. It was because he had his S / T powers. Notice that not even once does he use any other jutsu.

Sucking people in:

only taking back what was mine to begin with
Intangibility:

Link removed
Link removed
In fact, Tobi is caught several times by Minato, despite his hax technique. He couldn't manage one single hit on Minato.

Link removed
only taking back what was mine to begin with
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Furthermore notice that the only time he doesn't use his hax jutsu, Tobi uses such a simple trap, something genin would be able to do without much trouble. He's not that good as you lot would like to believe. At least not at that point. He got his ass handed to him.



> *Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
> "Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don?t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito?s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn?t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.







> *Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
> "Do you have ANY idea how long I?ve waited for this moment?" It?s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn?t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.



Tobi is not Madara. Yet he speaks as if he was many times.



> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn?t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara?s generation.



Obito knew Kushina. Kurama saw everything through her eyes. 



> *Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
> Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.



This varies (yes, I've measured). This page shows them at the same height. The page about Kakashi and etc is not conclusive due to it being in perspective. Still this is the only one I concede defeat in.



> *Plothole Number 6: Minato would?ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
> If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato?s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn?t.



Why would Minato know if he was Tobi? He's not Karin.



> *Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
> "This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.



I've already gave hypothesis for this, as did many others.



> *Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
> Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.



Tobi's emulating dat Madara again. Zetsu records everything too, probably the fight between Hashirama vs Madara (or Madara's account of it), so Tobi would have knowledge of what Harishama would be like.



> *Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.



Emulating dat Madara. 



> *Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
> It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.



Zetsu, who records things like the big brother's videocam.



> *Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito*
> (chapter 509 page 4)
> Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.



I've already gave hypothesis for this, blah blah.

---

The only true plothole might be the height. The rest has been given credible answers. They might not be what the final result will be like, but if we can find a non plothole excuse for it, then Kishimoto also can.


----------



## Mateush (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I still think think the constantly falling boulders in the current battle is a big hint to Tobito.



I find it funny that all think different, for example you like to use artworks as hint for Tobi's identity. I use almost only sentences as important hint.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

*@Mateush:* Not sure if that was insult, but...

I don't only use imagery. I was just using it this once to get across a possible hint to Tobito!

Because in Gaiden, the boulders were falling during the day when they caved in on Obito, now they're falling at night, signifying the coming end of Obito's character...


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 5, 2012)

During the fight with Zabuza Kakashi mentioned that the Hidden Mist was also called the bloody mist a long time ago. That was when Zabuza was a kid. He is one year younger than Kakashi so when he was a little kid, Obito was too, right? But at that time Tobi controlled the Mizukage. 
The only option that's left is, that the longhaired Tobi is not the same as the shorthaired Tobi. But Kisame stated, that they are the same being.

The thing that makes me doubt is, that by the time Itachi found Tobi, he had long hair too but by the time he fought Minato it was short. Either his hair is very fast growing or Kishi is a dumbass.

Or: Tobi and Madara do look the same.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> During the fight with Zabuza Kakashi mentioned that the Hidden Mist was also called the bloody mist a long time ago. That was when Zabuza was a kid. He is one year younger than Kakashi so when he was a little kid, Obito was too, right? But at that time Tobi controlled the Mizukage.
> The only option that's left is, that the longhaired Tobi is not the same as the shorthaired Tobi. But Kisame stated, that they are the same being.
> 
> The thing that makes me doubt is, that by the time Itachi found Tobi, he had long hair too but by the time he fought Minato it was short. Either his hair is very fast growing or Kishi is a dumbass.
> ...


Because it's impossible to grow your hair that long in 5 years... -__-


----------



## iSmile (Aug 5, 2012)

I couldnt search all posts but here is my opinion about Tobi being a part of Madara or clone or w/e... for a simple reason. We saw a chapter when Tobi asks Kabuto to reveal the secret behind Edo Tensei all weaknesses and bla bla... and we saw another chapter when Madara showed us that possesses all the proper knowledge enough to break the Edo Tensei. I think Kishimoto gave us a hint for the possibility Tobi being Madara's part isn't true.

About Tobi being Obito is also not possible! some people might believe that kishimito said something about kakashi's year or w/e (trust me i heard people saying this as an excuse) but after a year he said that, he announced the failure of establishing "kakashi's year" into the manga. Plus the excuse of the name tobi obito is lame and also obito exists in the manga bcuz kishimoto simply wanted us to know how kakashi got his sharingan, nothing more. 

I probably support Izuna or a future Sasuke would be hell of fun(but i dont think so it just sounds fun to me it wouldn't bother me at all if it was true) or something with Zetsu i guess, not sure but anyway i'll wait for the upcoming weeks since kishimoto announced us on his latest interview.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I believe these 2 pages CEMENT my point the MOST.
> here
> here
> 
> NOW do you concede?



There is a difference between what we're saying... Kakuzu said that he was beating by kids most likely because he is very old and he saw them as ''kids''

Madara came out and noticed and Nagato had grown, as in size not personality


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

iSmile said:


> I couldnt search all posts but here is my opinion about Tobi being a part of Madara or clone or w/e... for a simple reason. We saw a chapter when Tobi asks Kabuto to reveal the secret behind Edo Tensei all weaknesses and bla bla... and we saw another chapter when Madara showed us that possesses all the proper knowledge enough to break the Edo Tensei. I think Kishimoto gave us a hint for the possibility Tobi being Madara's part isn't true.


of course tobi's not a part of Madara. That would be lame.



> About Tobi being Obito is also not possible! some people might believe that kishimito said something about kakashi's year or w/e (trust me i heard people saying this as an excuse) but after a year he said that, he announced the failure of establishing "kakashi's year" into the manga. Plus the excuse of the name tobi obito is lame and also obito exists in the manga bcuz kishimoto simply wanted us to know how kakashi got his sharingan, nothing more.


He didn't say he failed about Kakashi's year. He just said he'd been wanting to give Kakashi development for a long time now. he had the development planned, but just didn't get to play it out 'till now.

About the name, I consider it to be quite awesome as you can figure out Tobi's true identity from his alias. Not to mention Tobi spelled backwards in Japanese is "Bito".

Also, that's not nearly all the evidence there is for this theory. 

Before you accuse something of only having that for evidence, research the theory more.

And, how do you know he was just used for Kakashi's development? I highly doubt that. Remember, it's the characters themselves that make great villains, not whether or not they're connected to the main character. Besides, the main villain being a fallen friend of Naruto's sensei would work great.



> I probably support Izuna or a future Sasuke would be hell of fun(but i dont think so it just sounds fun to me it wouldn't bother me at all if it was true) or something with Zetsu i guess, not sure but anyway i'll wait for the upcoming weeks since kishimoto announced us on his latest interview.


Izuna is far too irrelevant to the plot. You'd also think he'd have more of an introduction if he were meant to be Tobi. Future Sasuke is fan fiction.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Mistshadow, I think what you need to consider is we have in fact seen Nagato with his Rinnegan when he was a literal brat.
> here



No, I'm well aware of that, and have considered it. I'm just saying the fact is that Madara was AT LEAST alive during the 2nd ninja war. Now he gave the eyes to the brat nagato, who was a child. Just as likely, he could have gone on living for a little bit, or died right then and there. Removing your eyes doesnt equate to automatic death. Especially in  a world where you can implant new ones.
Now what I'm saying is Madara could have kept tabs on him even after he activated that rinnegan. Where he went on to spur Yahiko when they went into their teens and formed akatsuki. To him being pretty damn old at this point (older than the sannin and saroutobi) he would seem like still a brat. Who hasn't grown into his power, who hasn't matured to see the pain in the world quite yet. So after being resurrected, he assumed he had grown. Its plausible.



Mayaki said:


> During the fight with Zabuza Kakashi mentioned that the Hidden Mist was also called the bloody mist a long time ago. That was when Zabuza was a kid. He is one year younger than Kakashi so when he was a little kid, Obito was too, right? But at that time Tobi controlled the Mizukage.
> The only option that's left is, that the longhaired Tobi is not the same as the shorthaired Tobi. But Kisame stated, that they are the same being.
> 
> The thing that makes me doubt is, that by the time Itachi found Tobi, he had long hair too but by the time he fought Minato it was short. Either his hair is very fast growing or Kishi is a dumbass.
> ...



Problem is we don't know when the Bloody Mist began, and if it was because of Madara/Tobi's presence. Maybe it was started before andwas merely adapted by him. We will have to wait for more information. But Kisame talk with the 'mizukage' was AFTER kyuubi attack as was Haku's parents deaths.


Thebaxman said:


> There is a difference between what we're saying... Kakuzu said that he was beating by kids most likely because he is very old and he saw them as ''kids''
> 
> Madara came out and noticed and Nagato had grown, as in size not personality



Cool change the argument because I proved a point wrong. He never said grown in size. Maybe grew in power. Rinne Tensei requires a lot of chakra.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Izuna is far too irrelevant to the plot. You'd also think he'd have more of an introduction if he were meant to be Tobi. Future Sasuke is fan fiction.



Obito is a side character. Not relevant, he was only used in a side story to develop the personality of Kakashi, and Kakashi only.



Mistshadow said:


> Cool change the argument because I proved a point wrong. He never said grown in size. Maybe grew in power. Rinne Tensei requires a lot of chakra.



How did I change the argument? You're trying to say that Kakuzu called Kakashi a ''kid'' so Madara noting that Nagato had grown up doesn't necessarily mean in size..

What I said was that they are 2 different situations

here Can solve your problems  Thank you very much for a good debate


----------



## Raiden (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Obito is a side character. Not relevant, he was only used in a side story to develop the personality of Kakashi, and Kakashi only.



Do you know where you are right now ?


----------



## ch1p (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> About the name, I consider it to be quite awesome as you can figure out Tobi's true identity from his alias. Not to mention Tobi spelled backwards in Japanese is "Bito".



Furthermore from his name being backwards to represent the u-turn personality like some would like to call it... Bito represents incomplete Obito, since there are parts of him missing. It's quite fitting .


----------



## iSmile (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And, how do you know he was just used for Kakashi's development? I highly doubt that. Remember, it's the characters themselves that make great villains, not whether or not they're connected to the main character. Besides, the main villain being a fallen friend of Naruto's sensei would work great.



He already did that with Pein's background story.. come on! If it's Obito it'd be stupid, it cant be Obito he is useless he doesnt fit!


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Obito is a side character. Not relevant, he was only used in a side story to develop the personality of Kakashi, and Kakashi only.


I highly doubt that. Again, it's the character themselves that make a great villain. Not who they're connected to. But the main villain being a fallen friend of Naruto's sensei would be quite fitting.



Ch1p said:


> Furthermore from his name being backwards to represent the u-turn personality like some would like to call it... Bito represents incomplete Obito, since there are parts of him missing. It's quite fitting .


Exactly.:33



iSmile said:


> He already did that with Pein's background story.. come on!


So? This manga is about the previous generation surpassing the last, Obito fits with this theme. Again, it's the character themselves that make a great villain. Not who they're connected to. But the main villain being a fallen friend of Naruto's sensei would be quite fitting.

Seriously can you imagine: "Hurr durr, it's Izuna, he has no reason to wear a mask because he looks just like Madara and he wears it anyway cuz he's shy."

or: "Hurr durr, Kagami! he was in one panel and he was a secret spy for Madara and the father of Shisui and Obito and the son of Izuna!"



> If it's Obito it'd be stupid, it cant be Obito he is useless he doesnt fit!


Sure if you consider meaningful writing to be stupid.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 5, 2012)

Tobi not having Madara cells? This is madness!

Kabuto took Madara cells from Tobi to resurrect Madara. He wanted to proove Tobi that hes more than a simple spy.

Btw, i am Tobi irl.


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Because it's impossible to grow your hair that long in 5 years... -__-



Yupp, fastgrowing hair was the most important thing in this post. 

No seriously, the whole Mizukagething disagrees with Tobi being Obito sorry, Yagura was controlled by Tobi - this is canon!


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> Yupp, fastgrowing hair was the most important thing in this post.


I was just addressing the fact that it's not impossible for his hair to have grown that long. Look at Choji!



> No seriously, the whole Mizukagething disagrees with Tobi being Obito sorry, Yagura was controlled by Tobi - this is canon!


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, how exactly is that a problem?

According to some math by Tobitobi in a post a few weeks ago, Obito would have been 16 when the Bloody Mist started. No problem there.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Obito is a side character. Not relevant, he was only used in a side story to develop the personality of Kakashi, and Kakashi only.



Nice to meet you Kishi, it's an honor. So why did you put Kagami in for 2 panels? Was he a background character to establish Danzos past and show that he too had a ninja team. Can't wait to see you write the next chapter  



Thebaxman said:


> How did I change the argument? You're trying to say that Kakuzu called Kakashi a ''kid'' so Madara noting that Nagato had grown up doesn't necessarily mean in size..
> 
> What I said was that they are 2 different situations month-long trip Can solve your problems  Thank you very much for a good debate


You said give you an example of how an older person will call some adults and tell them they are brats/kids. I gave you multiple examples of Jiraya doing it to a grown up nagato, and kakashi's statement to kakuzu reinforces the fact that Kishi keeps it in mind when writing. Which makes it possible that Madara wasn't just referring to his age, but his power. Madara even makes the statement of comparing adults to kids when he says why would he act as an adult and wipe the floor with the kages who are the kids. Again, is it 100%? no, but you HAVE to admit its a possibility.
month-long trip



Mayaki said:


> Yupp, fastgrowing hair was the most important thing in this post.
> 
> No seriously, the whole Mizukagething disagrees with Tobi being Obito sorry, Yagura was controlled by Tobi - this is canon!



We don't know the specificness of this. We know the bloody academy thing was ended when Zabuza was a child. But we also know that the longhaired Tobi was in controlling at least a handful of years after the kyuubi attack as Kisame met him and Zabuza failed his assassination attempt. When it began is a mystery and the circumstances. That is being presumpterous. Until we know when it began and if the same person began it, you can't be for sure.
Saying "yagura seemed like a good guy" doesn't sell it. He was a ninja above all else, Zabuza wasn't evil when he was a kid but he was a ninja and killed all his classmates, because it was expected. Danzo wasn't completely evil, but he adopted similar practices to the bloody mist village.


----------



## Time (Aug 5, 2012)

I am Tobi..


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 5, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Tobi said he was "only taking back what was mine to begin with", which strongly implies that Nagato's Rinnegan were Madara's own.



Perhaps. No more than Tobi's collection of eyes are his "own" eyes, in my opinion. Perhaps someone gave Nagato one of those and it thus became the Rinnegan.




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I was just addressing the fact that it's not impossible for his hair to have grown that long. Look at Choji!
> 
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, how exactly is that a problem?
> 
> According to some math by Tobitobi in a post a few weeks ago, Obito would have been 16 when the Bloody Mist started. No problem there.



I believe that you meant _ended_, .


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

*@Tobitobi:* Oh yeah... I think I screwed up. But then why was Tobi controlling Yagura when he and Kisame met? That would mean the Bloody Mist was still going on.

That would mean that the BM(Bloody Mist) was started while Obito was still loyal to Konoha. But if that's true then he couldn't have started the BM and thus met Kisame which would rule him out as Tobi...


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I was just addressing the fact that it's not impossible for his hair to have grown that long. Look at Choji!
> 
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, how exactly is that a problem?
> 
> According to some math by Tobitobi in a post a few weeks ago, Obito would have been 16 when the Bloody Mist started. No problem there.



He would have been a little child like Zabuza was.  



> We don't know the specificness of this. We know the bloody academy thing was ended when Zabuza was a child. But we also know that the longhaired Tobi was in controlling at least a handful of years after the kyuubi attack as Kisame met him and Zabuza failed his assassination attempt. When it began is a mystery and the circumstances. That is being presumpterous. Until we know when it began and if the same person began it, you can't be for sure.



I agree. Can you tell me though how we knew that it was after the Kyuubi-attack? I'm not doubting that but I forgot were that was mentioned.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

*@Mayaki:* We know this because Kisame was around the same age as Obito. If Obito would have been 15-16 during the attack, so would Kisame, albeit a little older. So, Kisame was obviously around 30 or at least older than 16-17 when he and Tobi met. So therefore Tobi and Kisame met after Kurama's attack.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> I agree. Can you tell me though how we knew that it was after the Kyuubi-attack? I'm not doubting that but I forgot were that was mentioned.



Just because the bloody academy tests ended doesn't mean the bloody mist nickname ended, or that leadership changed, they just found a kink and changed a method of training.
Kisame is only 2 years older than Zabuza and Kakashi. kyuubi attack was 15-16 years ago. And Ibiki is 1 year older than Zabuza/Kakashi, 1 year  younger than Kisame

How old does Kisame look in here.
only taking back what was mine to begin with
only taking back what was mine to begin with
only taking back what was mine to begin with

Or do both look in
only taking back what was mine to begin with


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *@Tobitobi:* Oh yeah... I think I screwed up. But then why was Tobi controlling Yagura when he and Kisame met? That would mean the Bloody Mist was still going on.
> 
> That would mean that the BM(Bloody Mist) was started while Obito was still loyal to Konoha. But if that's true then he couldn't have started the BM and thus met Kisame which would rule him out as Tobi...



I believe that the point is that one would have to prove that it didn't happen at the end of the blood mist era in order to say that Obito couldn't have been about 16 when he met with Kisame.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> I believe that the point is that one would have to prove that it didn't happen at the end of the blood mist era in order to say that Obito couldn't have been about 16 when he met with Kisame.


Well, Kisame was older than 17-18 during their meeting. And if tobi is Obito, how could he have grown his hair that long withing less than a year?

i suppose it's still possible however, that Madara just switched out with Obito after the Kyuubi attack.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> I never asked for an example? I asked why you think Madara would say that Nagato had grown, your answer to that was because he was referring to his power.. Wasn't *just* referring to his age?? This means that he was referring to his age AND his power, I don't know if you understand English but this means that you are agreeing with me.  Thanks



I understand english a hell of a lot better than you. I offered another possibility, which you can't seem to grasp. Madara has already referred to power being strong and weak as a metaphor with adult and child. How do you not grasp that? How are panel examples of people referring to those that are NOT children as children not getting through to you that just because Madara says Nagato brat grew up doesn't necessarily mean Madara died when Nagato was 10 or whatever age he was.
And i don't know about you, but I'm 21 years old, and I would definitely feel like a child compared to when I turn 40 and I look back.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, Kisame was older than 17-18 during their meeting. And if tobi is Obito, how could he have grown his hair that long withing less than a year?
> 
> i suppose it's still possible however, that Madara just switched out with Obito after the Kyuubi attack.



We don't really know how old Kisame is either.   I wish the manga was better with age.  People look the same until their like 40-50 is crazy.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> We don't really know how old Kisame is either.



Kisame is 32. He was 29 in part 1.


----------



## Jimin (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm thinking Tobi is Uchiha Setsuna. : O


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Kisame is only 2 years older than Zabuza and Kakashi.



Zabuza is 26. Kakashi was 27 in part 1 and 30 in part 2. Kisame was 29 in part 1, and 32 in part 2. Therefore, Kisame was 2 years older than Zabuza and Kakashi in part 1. But in part 2, Kisame was 2 years older than Kakashi and 6 years older than Zabuza.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kisame is 32. He was 29 in part 1.



 I mean when he saw the Tobi unmasking the first time.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I understand english a hell of a lot better than you. I offered another possibility, which you can't seem to grasp. Madara has already referred to power being strong and weak as a metaphor with adult and child. How do you not grasp that? How are panel examples of people referring to those that are NOT children as children not getting through to you that just because Madara says Nagato brat grew up doesn't necessarily mean Madara died when Nagato was 10 or whatever age he was.
> *And i don't know about you, but I'm 21 years old, and I would definitely feel like a child compared to when I turn 40 and I look back.*


*
*

Offer all the possibilities you want, the best one you can think of is stupid because if Obito had to be old enough to be Tobi, and Madara was still alive, Nagato would have been AT LEAST 25-26 years old.... And Nagato wasn't even weak so your ''metaphor'' is crushed


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

"do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?"

Obito wouldnt say that if he had only been waiting 1~2 years

plothole


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, Kisame was older than 17-18 during their meeting. And if tobi is Obito, how could he have grown his hair that long withing less than a year?
> 
> i suppose it's still possible however, that Madara just switched out with Obito after the Kyuubi attack.



It would've taken about 2 years, in my opinion, if Obito was about 16 then.

It seems counterintuitive for _anyone_ to be able to grow their hair out in that short amount of time, so I wouldn't say that it necessarily takes away from the possibility that Tobi is Obito.

I'd say that it was some sort of jutsu that Tobi prepares, that allows for him to look like Madara (Zetsu related, perhaps), which is, perhaps, why he didn't just show Sasuke that he's Madara like with Kisame. 

Since showing his face to prove that he's Madara only serves to assimilate those who desire peace, but aren't strong enough without Madara's assistance (Nagato, Kisame, Itachi), and Sasuke cares nothing for peace, then that'd be useless. 

In other words, I believe that he only told Sasuke that he was Madara because he was under the impression that Itachi probably told Sasuke that he (Tobi) was Madara, since Itachi apparently knew that Tobi was the _same person_ that Itachi met with before, with a different mask, as was implicit from Itachi's Amaterasu in Sasuke. 

It would've been difficult to prove that he _wasn't_ Madara if he couldn't reveal his face to Sasuke (Amaterasu wouldn't let him take his mask from his face), so it's safer to pretend to be Madara. And since he wasn't prepared to use the jutsu, because, as stated, it's useless to persuade Sasuke with Madara's face since Sasuke doesn't care about peace, then he just _tells_ Sasuke that he's Madara.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> [/B]
> 
> Offer all the possibilities you want, the best one you can think of is stupid because if Obito had to be old enough to be Tobi, and Madara was still alive, Nagato would have been AT LEAST 25-26 years old.... And Nagato wasn't even weak so your ''metaphor'' is crushed



Actually doesn't look like Nagato came into his own until Yahiko died.  They looked to be 20-25 at the time.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

The storyline could be anything though lol.

1. Long hair guy could be Madara and Tobi could have changed to look like Madara.
2. Both masked men guys could be Tobi.

I was always under the impression that Kisame was old like Nagato's age but being almost the same age as Kakashi and crew makes it more confusing.  

If Tobi is an old guy the question is why would he be pretending to be Madara 15 years ago.  

Tobi does hint during the Kyuubi attack that Madara was still alive but who knows with what Tobi says.  

We don't know if the long hair Masked Man has the S/T power.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the long hair masked man was Tobi because his mask is the same one that  was wearing during his fight with Minato when he had short hair. I know that's weak proof, but still...


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Tobi looked at Kakashi and said he wanted to achieve a complete body.

He might feel like Kakashi is responsible for the boulders causing his body to become broken and fractured, thus having to have it repaired with Zetsu goo.

I could totally see Madara twisting Obito to think like this. Especially since, in a way, Kakashi WAS responsible, as Obito threw him out of the way to save him from the boulder, and Obito ended up getting crushed by it instead:



Due to Madara's manipulation, Obito could feel that saving Kakashi was a waste and he got his body all busted up for nothing because Kakashi ended up breaking his promise and letting Rin die.

This is also why Tobi says "Kakashi, you always open your mouth too easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret."



Because Kakashi opened his mouth easily and said he'd protect Rin, he ended up letting her die and regretted it his whole life:



"Obito, I'm sorry. I couldn't protect Rin. I broke my promise to you."

So, Madara used this and twisted Obito to hate the shinobi system and world and then told him about the Uchiha and Senju's past and how he could fix the world with the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Then he trained him for 2-3 years.

So, there ya have it folks! A perfect motive for Obito!

Looks like ya can't use that whole "he has no motive" argument anymore!

And besides that, here's something else I've noticed:



Right after Kakashi told his father about he was proud of him now because he abandoned all regulations to save his comrades, he started getting resurrected. Then Sakumo said "You've still got things left to do."

Like what?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm pretty sure the long hair masked man was Tobi because his mask is the same one that  was wearing during his fight with Minato when he had short hair. I know that's weak proof, but still...



ha... i agree, but it doesnt matter either way since the Obito fandom will always cling on to the crumbs of doubt and insist that long haired Tobi was Madara, otherwise the Obito theory is crushed


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm pretty sure the long hair masked man was Tobi because his mask is the same one that  was wearing during his fight with Minato when he had short hair. I know that's weak proof, but still...



That and Kasime claim it was the same person.

Theoretically ever suspect character is unaccounted at the time for outside of being dead lol.  

I really wish Kish would give dates for flashbacks, dates in general and ages.  It would make things way less confusing.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi looked at Kakashi and said he wanted to achieve a complete body.
> 
> He might feel like Kakashi is responsible for the boulders causing his body to become broken and fractured, thus having to have it repaired with Zetsu goo.
> 
> ...



If Tobi really IS Obito, then I REALLY hope he has a better reason for wanting to end the world than being butthurt that Rin died. -___-


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ha... i agree, but it doesnt matter either way since the Obito fandom will always cling on to the crumbs of doubt and insist that long haired Tobi was Madara, otherwise the Obito theory is crushed



Actually it doesn't really matter lol.  Obito was unaccounted for during the time period and we don't know how long since all flash back ages are guestimation on how characters look.  

Kisame during that flash black looks late teen or young adult.  Itachi found long hair guy when he was 13 I guess since it was likely not long before the Uchiha massacre.  9+13= 22 if Obito was alive.  Obito would have had plenty of time to grow his hair.  If Kisame was 18-22 or whatever  Obito would be 16-20 which is enough time to grow out his hair after the fight after Minato.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 5, 2012)

MYJC said:


> If Tobi really IS Obito, then I REALLY hope he has a better reason for wanting to end the world than being butthurt that Rin died. -___-



his reasoning is relatively simple, no war and suffering in a tsukiyomi world. Obviously this would mean that tobi has gone through much suffering and he blames it on the shinobi system.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

Kishi probably only made Tobi have long hair during his meeting with Kisame to confuse us.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 5, 2012)

the long hair can only mean 1 thing. Its a different tobi than the 1 we know. We assume its madara but it could be someone else entirely.


----------



## Nic (Aug 5, 2012)

I'd be surprised at this point if Tobi isn't Obito.  Kishi isn't exactly the greatest mystery writer either and tends to go with the obvious like with Nagato.  I doubt it's different here.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

MYJC said:


> If Tobi really IS Obito, then I REALLY hope he has a better reason for wanting to end the world than being butthurt that Rin died. -___-


Re-read the post. That's not all there is to his motive.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Actually it doesn't really matter lol.  Obito was unaccounted for during the time period and we don't know how long since all flash back ages are guestimation on how characters look.
> 
> Kisame during that flash black looks late teen or young adult.  Itachi found long hair guy when he was 13 I guess since it was likely not long before the Uchiha massacre.  9+13= 22 if Obito was alive.  Obito would have had plenty of time to grow his hair.  If Kisame was 18-22 or whatever  Obito would be 16-20 which is enough time to grow out his hair after the fight after Minato.



irrelevant because Tobi is obviously much older than Nagato and Konan

he wouldnt have referred to Konan as a little girl otherwise

he wouldnt have been old enough to fuck up the Kirigakure

he wouldnt have said "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" if he had only been waiting for 1~2 years for said moment



Nic said:


> I'd be surprised at this point if Tobi isn't Obito.  Kishi isn't exactly the greatest mystery writer either and tends to go with the obvious like with Nagato.  I doubt it's different here.



lol... if anything we've established Kishi can do mystery, if nothing else


----------



## Nic (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm sure kishi will add some flavor to the flashbacks including Obito's dog dying.


----------



## Nic (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol... if anything we've established Kishi can do mystery, if nothing else



you must not have much of an imagination because i don't see the mystery in this manga. 

The sixth coffin? most likely choice, check
who is Pain  most likely choice, check
who is Naruto's dad?  most likely choice, another check


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kishi probably only made Tobi have long hair during his meeting with Kisame to confuse us.



Maybe but the hair does look like Madara's.  Lol, I can't wait til this is outed.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> irrelevant because Tobi is obviously much older than Nagato and Konan
> 
> he wouldnt have referred to Konan as a little girl otherwise
> 
> ...



1. He was Madara.  Do you remember all the other things he did as Madara.  He was 100 percent into being Madara even to inside inside supporters like Kisame.

2.  We don't know if he did or if he just took over.  Regardless of who Tobi is it's likely Madara was the one who started it off.

3.  We don't know his mind set.  Lol.  If I was given slop for 2 years and was given a steak and shrimp dinner I might say the same thing.  If Obito was mind raped/tortured/manipulated into wanting to do the Kyuubi attack he might have the same feeling as well.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi is obviously much older than Nagato and Konan



We don't know the exact age of Nagato and Konan. Nor do we know the exact age of Tobi. But assuming Tobi is Kagami, he's definitely older than Nagato and Konan.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Something I think is strange is how Tobi didn't have those bolts on his body when he fought Minato and yet he had them on in current day but then got rid of them and didn't get new ones for his new outfit.

I wonder what relevance those bolts have...


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Something I think is strange is how Tobi didn't have those bolts on his body when he fought Minato and yet he had them on in current day but then got rid of them and didn't get new ones for his new outfit.
> 
> I wonder what relevance those bolts have...



Tobito supporters say that Tobi had those bolts to keep his body in place because it got damaged by the boulder or something lol.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> irrelevant because Tobi is obviously much older than Nagato and Konan


So obvious that it has never been established or implied how old Tobi is.


> he wouldnt have referred to Konan as a little girl otherwise


Wait a minute. If you were disguised as an old man (Madara), you would act around much younger people as their peer? 


> he wouldnt have been old enough to fuck up the Kirigakure


Who knows? Obito would be 1-2 years younger than Kisame.


> he wouldnt have said "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" if he had only been waiting for 1~2 years for said moment


Madara had been waiting for decades. 

Try leaving the irrelevant babble out of the discussion.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

*@HeLLzRoLLinG:* That's actually what I thought as well. But now I don't know _what_ they're for...


----------



## ch1p (Aug 5, 2012)

Nic said:


> I'm sure kishi will add some flavor to the flashbacks including Obito's dog dying.



Don't remind me of this shit. 



Nic said:


> who is Naruto's dad?  most likely choice, another check



I remember the 'IT'S TOO MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE THAT THE KYUBI ATTACKED IN THE NIGHT NARUTO WAS BORN' arguments against those who thought Minato was Naruto's father as if they were used yesterday.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I wonder what relevance those bolts have...



They could have been something similar to Nagato's rods? He needs to have them atm, otherwise that mystery is never going to be solved.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Nic said:


> you must not have much of an imagination because i don't see the mystery in this manga.
> 
> The sixth coffin? most likely choice, check
> who is Pain  most likely choice, check
> who is Naruto's dad?  most likely choice, another check



How do you not see the mystery in Tobi??


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Maybe Obito adopted the habit of wearing a mask from Kakashi!


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Maybe Obito adopted the habit of wearing a mask from Kakashi!



Maybe . That is, if he's Obito.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Actually doesn't look like Nagato came into his own until Yahiko died.  They looked to be 20-25 at the time.



Yahiko is AT LEAST 10 years older than Obito, so at the least he was 23 when he and Obito died...

Anyways we saw what Nagato can do right when Yahiko died.

Obito needed 2 years of training to become ''Tobi''

Nagato did it right away. Yahiko was known to be dead before we even knew of Tobi according to the timeline so my point stands


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. He was Madara.  Do you remember all the other things he did as Madara.  He was 100 percent into being Madara even to inside inside supporters like Kisame.
> 
> 2.  We don't know if he did or if he just took over.  Regardless of who Tobi is it's likely Madara was the one who started it off.
> 
> 3.  We don't know his mind set.  Lol.  If I was given slop for 2 years and was given a steak and shrimp dinner I might say the same thing.  If Obito was mind raped/tortured/manipulated into wanting to do the Kyuubi attack he might have the same feeling as well.



lol see what i mean... Obito believers HAVE TO believe Tobi was Madara at some point, otherwise the whole Obito theory is crushed

only a few more weeks now



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> We don't know the exact age of Nagato and Konan. Nor do we know the exact age of Tobi. But assuming Tobi is Kagami, he's definitely older than Nagato and Konan.



it doesnt matter if we dont know their ages

Tobi is, by default, older than all the Ame orphans because he manipulated them into creating Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan as a child


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 5, 2012)

We use the timeline to dismiss the Tobito theory and people use Madara to erase the timeline. Tobi has to be of some age, all that knowledge obtained is not easy to come by. And if he is Obito why would he say he waited a long time to get the Kyubii ? 1-2 years is a short period of time...and why would he have a grudge against the Uchiha and the village ? Oh yh "he was pretending to be Madara" . Tobi is too old and too wise to be Obito without an outside interference but then if there was he _isn't_ Obito he just has his body/eyes.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Yahiko is AT LEAST 10 years older than Obito, so at the least he was 23 when he and Obito died...
> 
> Anyways we saw what Nagato can do right when Yahiko died.
> 
> ...



I don't think Obito needed any training to become Tobi.  It's like saying Sasuke need years of training to use MS.  When it comes to doujutsu you typically can or can't do something.  

Nagato's weakness seemed to be emotional limitations vs. power limitation.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I don't think Obito needed any training to become Tobi.  It's like saying Sasuke need years of training to use MS.  When it comes to doujutsu you typically can or can't do something.
> 
> Nagato's weakness seemed to be emotional limitations vs. power limitation.



1. I was referring to the theory where Obito is Madara's ''apprentice''
2. Are you serious? Obito just walked up and fought Minato with no training? You're convincing me with your logical assumptions 

Anyways, Nagato wasn't weak.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol see what i mean... Obito believers HAVE TO believe Tobi was Madara at some point, otherwise the whole Obito theory is crushed
> 
> only a few more weeks now
> 
> ...



Actually, Tobi doesn't have to be Madara.  Long Hair Tobi appears in between Kyuubi attack and the current story.  

It just takes some speculation to fill what happened and there's no point because those who are against Obito theories accept no speculation.   

But to crush the Obito theory you must use at least 90 percent fan fiction and speculation for him to be someone else.  Because majority of the hints and circumstantial evidence point to Obito.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Nic said:


> you must not have much of an imagination because i don't see the mystery in this manga.
> 
> The sixth coffin? most likely choice, check
> who is Pain  most likely choice, check
> who is Naruto's dad?  most likely choice, another check



you must not have much of a memory... only a minority of people (such as myself) were saying Madara was in the 6th coffin

Pain was a new character so no, not most likely choice


you also forgot:

1) Tobi's identity
2) what Tobi did in the Mist village
3) the truth behind the Uchiha Massacre
4) multiple "that" jutsus
5) the Yin half of the Kyuubi
6) Oro's scroll

i could probably think of more if i really tried


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol see what i mean... Obito believers HAVE TO believe Tobi was Madara at some point, otherwise the whole Obito theory is crushed


We're not saying tobi was Madara. We're just saying that he was _posing_ as Madara.



> only a few more weeks now


Indeed.

here, let's make a bet. My bet is that tobi is Obito. Your bet is that he's Kagami. If he's Obito, _I_ win. If he's Kagami, _you_ win. If he's neither, then it's a tie.

Winner gets to make a set for the loser signifying how wrong he was and loser has to wear it for a week.

So you in? You're confident he's not Obito, right?

I already have another bet going after all, so if I lose, it will just be double the shame for me.



> Tobi is, by default, older than all the Ame orphans because he manipulated them into creating Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan as a child


Or Madara did it.



Moon Fang said:


> We use the timeline to dismiss the Tobito theory and people use Madara to erase the timeline. Tobi has to be of some age, all that knowledge obtained is not easy to come by. And if he is Obito why would he say he waited a long time to get the Kyubii ? 1-2 years is a short period of time...and why would he have a grudge against the Uchiha and the village ? Oh yh "he was pretending to be Madara" . Tobi is too old and too wise to be Obito without an outside interference but then if there was he _isn't_ Obito he just has his body/eyes.


Who said he couldn't have had outside interference?



Raventhal said:


> *I don't think Obito needed any training to become Tobi.*  It's like saying Sasuke need years of training to use MS.  When it comes to doujutsu you typically can or can't do something.
> 
> Nagato's weakness seemed to be emotional limitations vs. power limitation.


..................

You're kind of off here. You don't go from being a weaker than average Uchiha to being an S/T master masked man without training.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 5, 2012)

If it's outside interference/brainwashing it's not really Obito now is it ?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> 1. I was referring to the theory where Obito is Madara's ''apprentice''
> 2. Are you serious? Obito just walked up and fought Minato with no training? You're convincing me with your logical assumptions
> 
> Anyways, Nagato wasn't weak.



I didn't say he didn't need any training.  He just didn't need the elaborate training people claim.

If he awakened S/T doujutsu he's not going to need years to use it.  You think he was sitting there doing on/off phasing training fpr 50 years? No we've seen in this story we've seen once someone can use a doujutsu they pretty much can use it.  Especially Uchiha who have generally have drastic draw backs unless you think Uchiha were popping in eyes like candy to practice Izanagi.

Since he used the Uchiha method of Kyuubi control through doujutsu he's not going to need years of training to do that.  Susanoo is the most advanced  tech that we've seen that needs time to develop and it's not very long.   What one day for Sasuke?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Actually, Tobi doesn't have to be Madara.  Long Hair Tobi appears in between Kyuubi attack and the current story.
> 
> It just takes some speculation to fill what happened and there's no point because those who are against Obito theories accept no speculation.
> 
> But to crush the Obito theory you must use at least 90 percent fan fiction and speculation for him to be someone else.  Because majority of the hints and circumstantial evidence point to Obito.



Nagato is around 10 years older than Obito... FACT

thats all it takes to crush the Obito theory... its the Obito believers that use at least 90% fan fiction to try and justify the plotholes


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> If it's outside interference/brainwashing it's not really Obito now is it ?


I meant mindfucking/manipulation by Madara. Not real brainwashing. So yes, it would still be Obito.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

> You're kind of off here. You don't go from being a weaker than average Uchiha to being an S/T master masked man without training.



Almost all Uchiha advancement is reliant on emotional pain and need.  I'm just saying that once he had the S/T doujutsu he's not going to need years of training to use it.  We didn't see Sasuke failing to produce amaterasu once he had.  He never "trained" to use it.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> Nagato is around 10 years older than Obito... FACT
> 
> thats all it takes to crush the Obito theory... its the Obito believers that use at least 90% fan fiction to try and justify the plotholes


Says the guy who supports a theory based solely on fanfiction...

And if the "plotholes" can be justified, then they're not plotholes.



*@Raventhal:* Good point.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Says the guy who supports a theory based solely on fanfiction...



trying to change the subject is kind of a concession, dont you think?



> And if the "plotholes" can be justified, then they're not plotholes.



they cant... Obito believers only think they can


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i see my theory is catching on
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, ok give me evidence Tobi is someone else without making it up?  Just straight facts that he's someone.  Kagami has like two panels and no plot at all.  You don't know his personality, his motives, his friends, his enemies/rivals.  He has no character development at all.  If you change Kagami's last name from Uchiha he wouldn't even be considered because there is no foreshadowing or even a single hint that he's Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

> Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)
> Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.


What the fuck?

This is basic growth...

Itachi was 14 and he was as tall as adult Oro and Kisame.

Yeah. Pfft, people don't grow at different rates. Reeeeal big fuckin' hole right there...

Do you mean to tell me that if I was 5'8 or 5'9 at the age of 15 or 16 then that's a plothole in real life? Gimme a break.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> trying to change the subject is kind of a concession, dont you think?


I was taking the chance to address the irony of it all. Something which you conveniently ignore in defense of your fanfiction theory.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> they cant... Obito believers only think they can


wut.

We give arguments against your "holes". So, because you don't want to accept it that means the argument is just in our heads? What kind of abysmal logic is that?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> This is basic growth...
> 
> ...



I know.  I guess since I grew 6 inches from 15-17 and 12-17  I grew 12 inches my life had a plot hole.  I was the shortest of my best friends.  At 12-13 I was 5'3, my friend 2 was 5'8 and my friend 3 was 5'11 at 13-14. We finished I was 6'3, my friend 2 was 6'2 and my friend 3 was 6'1.   It's a real life plot hole lol.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 5, 2012)

Unless Tobi has time travel I don't see it working.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, ok give me evidence Tobi is someone else without making it up?  Just straight facts that he's someone.  Kagami has like two panels and no plot at all.  You don't know his personality, his motives, his friends, his enemies/rivals.  He has no character development at all.  If you change Kagami's last name from Uchiha he wouldn't even be considered because there is no foreshadowing or even a single hint that he's Tobi.



this isnt about who i think Tobi is

*this is about who i think Tobi isnt... he ISNT Obito*


the only way to justify my plotholes is by changing the facts... i.e saying Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan when we know it was Tobi

or some kind of time travel/hyperbolic time chamber fanfic


----------



## ovanz (Aug 5, 2012)

He could be a random uchiha or a random guy, not anyone we have seen or heard.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

I used to believe in Kagami but I realized that if you erased him from the manga the story wouldn't even change.  

Only Izuna and Obito have themes that fit the manga.  Brother theme and what if Naruto was evil.  

Shishiu simply doesn't make sense with the Danzo yanking his eye in between Tobi appearances unless Obito is his brother and he gained EMS from taking his eye thus not losing his S/T power.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I know.  I guess since I grew 6 inches from 15-17 and 12-17  I grew 12 inches my life had a plot hole.  I was the shortest of my best friends.  At 12-13 I was 5'3, my friend 2 was 5'8 and my friend 3 was 5'11 at 13-14. We finished I was 6'3, my friend 2 was 6'2 and my friend 3 was 6'1.   It's a real life plot hole lol.



except i have used manga panels to prove my case

Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be *MUCH *shorter than the average adult *(chapter 503 page 9)*

if this evidence wasnt there i woulnt call it a plothole


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> this isnt about who i think Tobi is
> 
> *this is about who i think Tobi isnt... he ISNT Obito*


So you admit your theory is a fanfic?




> the only way to justify my plotholes is by changing the facts... i.e saying Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan when we know it was Tobi


Exactly. Also, the guy who attacked the leaf village 16 years ago must have been the ramen guy because we know it wasn't Tobi! And Edo Madara must be Izuna in disguise because we know Tobi is Madara! Your logic rocks, jacamo!



> or some kind of time travel/hyperbolic time chamber fanfic


or the good old, "Loot at that fodder who was in 2 panels! You can tell from the look in his eyes that he was a spy for Madara and was the son of Izuna and the father of Obito and Shisui!" fanfic? That one was always the dumbest!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> this isnt about who i think Tobi is
> 
> *this is about who i think Tobi isnt... he ISNT Obito*
> 
> ...



Lol, Tobi said he was Madara when he said he gave Konan his eyes.  By saying it was Tobi YOUR changing the story since we know Tobi was claiming Madara feats.


----------



## NW (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> except i have used manga panels to prove my case
> 
> Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be MUCH shorter than the average adult
> 
> if this evidence wasnt there i woulnt call it a plothole


So by that logic, Obito absolutely MUST have grown only as much as them, right?

I mean, we totally know Obito's biological code and shit so no no worries.

Besides, it's not like you can clearly see that they all have slightly different heights. You're the man, jacamo!


----------



## Nic (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you must not have much of a memory... only a minority of people (such as myself) were saying Madara was in the 6th coffin
> 
> Pain was a new character so no, not most likely choice
> 
> ...



a) you mean all those that still claimed tobi was madara?
b)what does that have to do with anything?

1) not a mystery, he's obito
2) not a mystery
3) again not much of a mystery
4) a bigger rasengan is a mystery?
5) there's a mystery there? 
6) and i'm sure we're in for a heck of a surprise.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 5, 2012)

ovanz said:


> He could be a random uchiha or a random guy, not anyone we have seen or heard.



No, Tobi has to be someone that we already know and seen. I've said this a bunch of times before. What would be the point of the mask then?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> except i have used manga panels to prove my case
> 
> Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be *MUCH *shorter than the average adult *(chapter 503 page 9)*
> 
> if this evidence wasnt there i woulnt call it a plothole



1. Obito was taller than Kakashi.
2. Itachi was as tall as Kisame some panels at a younger age.
3. You grew at the same speed as all your friends?
4. Minato was 5'9 which is not very tall.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So you admit your theory is a fanfic?



Worst logic ever.. There are many other theories that are not fan fiction


----------



## jacamo (Aug 5, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So you admit your theory is a fanfic?



Kagami is not fanfic because it has no plotholes, its a legit possibility

Obito is fanfic because it has *multiple *plotholes



Nic said:


> 1) not a mystery, he's obito



my goodness, i didnt think you were that impressionable



Raventhal said:


> 1. Obito was taller than Kakashi.
> 2. Itachi was as tall as Kisame some panels at a younger age.
> 3. You grew at the same speed as all your friends?
> 4. Minato was 5'9 which is not very tall.



i dont see manga panels proving your side of the argument

concession accpeted


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Worst logic ever.. There are many other theories that are not fan fiction



Like what?  

Outside of Izuna and Obito who has any real hints or evidence?  

There is little evidence of a clone outside of the Zetsu like goo.  it takes a lot of fan fiction to tie it to the story.

Kagami has no plot at all.   He simply a dead Uchiha that's not accounted for by fiction standards.

Shishiu like I said with the eye thing with Danzo makes it a hard sell though there is some hinting since Tobi seems to be a anti-hero/former hero type.

Time travel character.... nothing at all.

Obito's body snatcher.  It's possible but it's weird to take hints that it's actually Obito and twist them into a body snatcher unless he retains his memory.... but then you start diving into fan fiction.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

plotholes render your hints obsolete

Nagato is around 10 years *older *than Obito... jeeeez


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami is not fanfic because it has no plotholes, its a legit possibility
> 
> Obito is fanfic because it has *multiple *plotholes
> 
> ...



There are plenty of panels with Itachi being 13 and as tall as Kisame and  Oro and other Akatsuki. 

How can someone with no plot not be fan fiction?  You know nothing about him at all except his name and he was sitting around with Team Tobirama.   You could take Kagami out of the story and nothing changes.  He is one of the most irrelevant Uchiha in the manga.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami is not fanfic because it has no plotholes, its a legit possibility


It's a fanfic because we don't know anything about him. So you're forced to make shit up from scratch. That's what we call a fanfic, my friend.



> Obito is fanfic because it has *multiple *plotholes


That's not how we define a fanfic. Obito is a plausible theory with very vague things that do not count as plotholes until further elaborated upon in the manga. it also doesn't help that there are people so against it that they can't even accept a possibility.





> i dont see manga panels proving your side of the argument
> 
> concession accpeted


You really just said that.

it's basic knowledge that people grow at different rates. You don't need any manga panels support it.


But just for you:
*Spoiler*: __ 



O____O It's a plothole cuz he doesn't grow at exactly the same rate as everyone else!


----------



## Raiden (Aug 6, 2012)

Obito was about 5'. Tobi was about 5'7. 

A height difference that certainly can be explained by puberty. You don't even need to drink milk to grow that much .


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> plotholes render your hints obsolete
> 
> Nagato is around 10 years *older *than Obito... jeeeez



Lol, that means nothing.  Again, most of the story around Madara's doing is a mystery.  Tobi's doings are a mystery and he claims feats that are Madara's pretending to be Madara.  The Nagato thing he said he was Madara.  You can't claim for 100 percent that Tobi is telling the truth unless you believe Tobi is Madara.

If I said I was Barack Obama and said that I inspired Kobe Bryant as a kid.  I turn out not to be Barack Obama are you going to believe what I said about Kobe Bryant even if I worked for Obama?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

its comical how people can say Obito has no plotholes



10 years.... thats how much older Nagato is compared to Obito


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> There are plenty of panels with Itachi being 13 and as tall as Kisame and  Oro and other Akatsuki.



Plenty of panels showing Itachi as tall as Kisame at the age of 13?
Really? Show me them.

Kisame was always taller than Itachi. Quite a bit taller.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Raiden said:


> Obito was about 5'. Tobi was about 5'7.
> 
> A height difference that certainly can be explained by puberty. You don't even need to drink milk to grow that much .



Yep, I went from 5'7-6'1 in almost 2 years...


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

heh, most of these arguments are going round in circles now. If your mind is already made up nothing posted in this thread will change it. Every point is being repeated ad nauseam. 

The only thing I'll say is that none of the candidates in the poll would satisfy me. I want the face behind the mask to be a real shocker, someone who will make our jaws drop - characters and readers. I have no idea who that is, but don't exclude the possibility that Kishi pulls a stunning twist that no-one could reasonably expect. We've argued about the same people for years, I'd yawn if Tobi is one of them.

Kishi dug a hole for himself by waiting so long. Maybe we're expecting too much and the reveal is a major disappointment.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Yep, I went from 5'7-6'1 in almost 2 years...



thats not the point

the point is i have manga evidence showing Obito's teammates being MUCH shorter than the rest of the adults... you have no manga evidence


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami is not fanfic because it has no plotholes, its a legit possibility
> 
> Obito is fanfic because it has *multiple *plotholes


Kagami is nothing more then fanfic, you have nothing to support this theory besides some fanfic stories, Obito has like 1000 facts and yet a few arguments against it, obviously when you make a masked character you put the obvious thing from the start, then you throw in some random bullshits like him being another character and try to erase the obvious thing, then you destroy the whole bullshit and start adding arguments against the obvious thing which you explain later.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kagami is nothing more then fanfic, you have nothing to support this theory besides some fanfic stories, Obito has like 1000 facts and yet a few arguments against it, obviously when you make a masked character you put the obvious thing from the start, then you throw in some random bullshits like him being another character and try to erase the obvious thing, then you destroy the whole bullshit and start adding arguments against the obvious thing which you explain later.



Kagami has no plotholes

Obito has a FUCK LOAD of plotholes



Easley said:


> heh, most of these arguments are going round in circles now. If your mind is already made up nothing posted in this thread will change it. Every point is being repeated ad nauseam.
> 
> The only thing I'll say is that none of the candidates in the poll would satisfy me. I want the face behind the mask to be a real shocker, someone who will make our jaws drop - characters and readers. I have no idea who that is, but don't exclude the possibility that Kishi pulls a stunning twist that no-one could reasonably expect. We've argued about the same people for years, I'd yawn if Tobi is one of them.
> 
> Kishi dug a hole for himself by waiting so long. Maybe we're expecting too much and the reveal is a major disappointment.



i agree... ive always said the reveal will be anticlimactic whoever it is

unless its Senju Nawaki


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> its comical how people can say Obito has no plotholes
> 
> 
> 
> 10 years.... thats how much older Nagato is compared to Obito


And how convenient is it that you changed the subject right when we showed that your "Tobi is too tall" argument holds absolutely no weight?

Again, what does Nagato being 10 years older than Obito matter? You're ignoring people's arguments against you even though a person would normally doubt the credibility of Tobi's claims since he has been proven to be a huge liar and that he was posing as Madara when he made the claim. But no, you use something completely unconfirmed and try to use it to disprove a theory. Well, sorry bud. That's not how things work.

Give me manga canon proof that Tobi said he gave Nagato the rinnegan where he was canonically confirmed to not be posing as Madara and I'll believe you. And if you can't, then concession accepted.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Plenty of panels showing Itachi as tall as Kisame at the age of 13?
> Really? Show me them.
> 
> Kisame was always taller than Itachi. Quite a bit taller.



Well, not as tall but adult height.  He was as tall as the average adult.  Kisame is kind of tall period.  

LikeNaruto


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> thats not the point
> 
> the point is i have manga evidence showing Obito's teammates being MUCH shorter than the rest of the adults... you have no manga evidence
> Spoiler:


Good. Now give me manga evidence that states Obito MUST have grown at exactly the same rate as all his teammates and I'll believe you.
Because again, it's not like people grow at different rates.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> Kagami has no plotholes


Neither does Torifu Akimichi. ZOMFG HE MUST BE TOBI! I mean, there's nothing to suggest he's Tobi but there's nothing to contradict it! SO, maybe every single character in the plot who can be Tobi with no plotholes is Tobi!!!!

Oh wait, that's right... Kagami HAS no plot.



> Obito has a FUCK LOAD of plotholes


You can't even refute anyone's arguments against your holes. You just state the same thing over and over again. You're a real winner, bud.

Anyway, at least everyone'll only have to put up with this for hopefully one just more week.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats not the point
> 
> the point is i have manga evidence showing Obito's teammates being MUCH shorter than the rest of the adults... you have no manga evidence



Manga evidence shows Itachi adult height at 13.  Your point is invalid.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami has no plotholes
> 
> Obito has a FUCK LOAD of plotholes


Hahaha, even tho that poor guy had no plot he still has plotholes, Danzou didnt recognize his team mate when he fought against Sasuke?
Minato couldnt recognize a villager?
Kagami is Obito's daddy?
Nice fanfic bro. 
Now you can go off line/ignore mode again like you always do poor guy.



jacamo said:


> thats not the point
> 
> the point is i have manga evidence showing Obito's teammates being MUCH shorter than the rest of the adults... you have no manga evidence


Fail post is fail, haha instead proving the opposite your just confirming the things for us, Kurenai is even tall as that Chunin adult next to him.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 6, 2012)

To the mod who deleted my -rep post, thank you for ignoring jacamo.

on topic, I'll make this simple for all of you. ObitoUchiha111 has shown us the manner in which to handle it.

Prove that Tobi wasn't referring to Madara's actions, or concession accepted, until you can.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Good. Now give me manga evidence that states Obito MUST have grown at exactly the same rate as all his teammates and I'll believe you.
> Because again, it's not like people grow at different rates.
> 
> Neither does Torifu Akimichi. ZOMFG HE MUST BE TOBI! I mean, there's nothing to suggest he's Tobi but there's nothing to contradict it! SO, maybe every single character in the plot who can be Tobi with no plotholes is Tobi!!!!
> ...



you never refuted my plotholes to begin with 

and dont worry, i will be here until the end of the manga... doesnt matter who Tobi is i will be here for years to come

even if Tobi is Obito, i will be here every day, even more active than before, just to demand that Kishi explain every single Obito plothole 

you? im not so sure... you might just disappear when Tobi is revealed and he isnt Obito, just like when 6th coffin = Madara was revealed



Raventhal said:


> Manga evidence shows Itachi adult height at 13.  Your point is invalid.



i post manga panel... you say its invalid


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm almost 100% sure that Obito could see through the eye of his that he gave Kakashi:



How did he know that Kakashi was just holding Kakko's dead body up?!

Either that or he saw through the rock with his remaining sharingan, which would mean it survived.

So, either Obito and Kakashi's eye connection saved Obito or he activated MS at the last second and teleported out of there. You have to admit, it would be a fitting time.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

So I take it that 'Obito' apparently started the Bloody Mist in Kirigakure? I mean, he was controlling Yagura for a reason, right? 

or is loool3 correct and the long-haired man was really Madara? This stuff makes less sense the more you think about it.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm almost 100% sure that Obito could see through the eye of his that he gave Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've had this idea before, but this has basically convinced me. Thank you.

Also would explain how Tobi knew about Kushina's pregnancy, if all of the ANBU were informed about it. Plenty of them were there, and Kakashi was apparently a member, at the time, in my opinion.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> you never refuted my plotholes to begin with


You only think that because you're not willing to accept any explanations we give.



> and dont worry, i will be here until the end of the manga... doesnt matter who Tobi is i will be here for years to come


So, you're going to be on the tobi's identity thread even years after his identity is revealed.........



> even if Tobi is Obito, i will be here every day, even more active than before, just to demand that Kishi explain every single Obito plothole


Which he will because they aren't plotholes.



> you? im not so sure... you might just disappear when Tobi is revealed and he isnt Obito,


Of course. I'll except defeat and leave.(Only if he's not Obito.) Not much we could debate on for Kagami anyway. 





> just like when 6th coffin = Madara was revealed


I wasn't even a member here when that was revealed......


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> So I take it that 'Obito' apparently started the Bloody Mist in Kirigakure? I mean, he was controlling Yagura for a reason, right?
> 
> or is loool3 correct and the long-haired man was really Madara? This stuff makes less sense the more you think about it.


Less my back, Madara lived already about 100 years another 5 isnt possible, the hair, the hip pose, the act, the ultimate original goal, the wounded chest, everything points out to the real Madara.


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 6, 2012)

I have noticed that there is one question that hasn't been asked here and that is, *Why did Tobi where a mask with one hole, when he could've wore two holes like the mask he wears now?*

It's not like we would've known he would have a sharingan with Izanagi unlocked.

Here's my theory to that question and it connects to the Kakashi Gaiden.

We know that once you use Izanagi, that eye is completely shut off forever. We also know that Tobi's right eye, uses the S/T jutsu, and Tobi used his left eye for Izanagi for emergencies, such as the scenario with Konan when she tried to kill him.

See, Tobi knew that once he used the Izanagi, he would be at a dis advantage because then he would have his field of vision would be smaller. So to get used to that, he would wear a mask with one hole where his S/T jutsu would be used. This would prepare his eyes and make him get used to using one eye for the remainder of his life until he gets his rinnegan. 

Now. Here's where the Kakashi Gaiden comes in place. Kakashi lost his eye and had a bandage to cover it. *HIS field of vision was cut, AND HE WASN'T USED TO HIS VISION BEING LIKE THIS.*.

So because of that, he got hit by the rock because it was his blind spot, and he wasn't used to it. This caused Obito to sacrifice his body so he can save Kakashi because the rock hit him in his _*blind spot*_.



Now if Obito got saved by someone, that someone used zetsu goo to repair his body, unlocked his S/T jutsu through sharingan, gave him an eye and unlocked Izanagi for him, wouldn't it be a smart idea to block that eye because it would be blind anyways, also so he won't be at a disadvantage like a certain someone was, *COUGH* Kakashi *COUGH*, and only use his right eye for the S/T justsu, until he can find something better after he used his Izanagi?

Here's also proof that once Tobi used his eye it was closed forever, and that his vision was not changed because he was *so used to using his right eye in battle that it wouldn't matter at all*



This was what I had come up after watching Tobi face Konan for kicks, while eating some dinner ^^.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> So I take it that 'Obito' apparently started the Bloody Mist in Kirigakure? I mean, he was controlling Yagura for a reason, right?
> 
> or is loool3 correct and the long-haired man was really Madara? This stuff makes less sense the more you think about it.



Presumably that was his doing, yes.

The time he spent in control of Yagura and ruling the Mist with an Iron Fist is bound to make for interesting flashbacks.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> So I take it that 'Obito' apparently started the Bloody Mist in Kirigakure? I mean, he was controlling Yagura for a reason, right?
> 
> or is loool3 correct and the long-haired man was really Madara? This stuff makes less sense the more you think about it.



makes no sense for Obito to have done all that

we will get flashbacks regardless


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> i post manga panel... you say its invalid


Because people grow at different rates. Which you had to have proven to you by a fictional character in a manga!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i post manga panel... you say its invalid



LikeNaruto

Itachi invalidates the argument. You claim that ever character grows the same height.  Itachi was adult height at 13 as can be seen in almost all of Itachi/Sasuke flash backs.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> makes no sense for Obito to have done all that



Seems pretty in character for a nihilistic misanthrope who views people as disposable tools.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm almost 100% sure that Obito could see through the eye of his that he gave Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tobi can't be Obito,
This of course comes from the well known fact that Tobi is Mojo Jojo



He became far too advanced in his own cartoon. He was a genius.

He planned and plotted with his experiments, he stopped caring about the power puff girls, just to focus on a new plan, one he got from peering into a different realm where ninja fought amongst villages and the wars between them.

One ninja really caught Mojo Jojo's eyes. Madara Uchiha.

After carefully observing him from his own realm, Mojo quickly learnt about Madara's moon eye plan. Mojo was able to learn much about the Sage of Six Paths and all that safely in this power puffy realm.

Finally Mojo perfected his experiments and was able to cross over into the ninja realm. 

He didn't send himself at first, he did little things, butterfly effect things, got the akatsuki to form with subliminal messaging. 

Finally Mojo crossed over into the realm fully soon after Obito was crushed and took his eye.

This is where Tobi was born...


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Well, not as tall but adult height.  He was as tall as the average adult.  Kisame is kind of tall period.
> 
> LikeNaruto



I said show me panels that show Itachi as tall as Kisame -__-. Oh well. Not gonna bug you for this. 

And Kisame is kinda tall? He's taller than most Naruto characters and is the tallest in the Akatsuki followed by Kakuzu.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I said show me panels that show Itachi as tall as Kisame -__-. Oh well. Not gonna bug you for this.
> 
> And Kisame is kinda tall? He's taller than most Naruto characters and is the tallest in the Akatsuki followed by Kakuzu.


13~ years old Itachi vs 20~ year old Kisame;



You might as well compare current Naruto's height with Tobi's in the last few chapters, or when he was talking with Minato in his belly.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats not the point
> 
> the point is i have manga evidence showing Obito's teammates being MUCH shorter than the rest of the adults... you have no manga evidence


Funny. Apparently Jiraiya towered over his teammates. You think a person's height is somewhat indicative of his teammate's height? 

Expressing your faulty logic a million times will never correct it.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Less my back, Madara lived already about 100 years another 5 isnt possible, the hair, the hip pose, the act, the ultimate original goal, the wounded chest, everything points out to the real Madara.


I haven't ruled it out, it does explain a few things - and two guys working together is what we expect, since Tobi and Madara know each other. Right now we have no idea _exactly_ when Madara died.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Again, what does Nagato being 10 years older than Obito matter? You're ignoring people's arguments against you even though a person would normally doubt the credibility of Tobi's claims since he has been proven to be a huge liar and that he was posing as Madara when he made the claim. But no, you use something completely unconfirmed and try to use it to disprove a theory. Well, sorry bud. That's not how things work.



If Nagato was 10 years older than Obito and Madara had noted he had grown then Obito can't be Tobi according to the timeline


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I said show me panels that show Itachi as tall as Kisame -__-. Oh well. Not gonna bug you for this.
> 
> And Kisame is kinda tall? He's taller than most Naruto characters and is the tallest in the Akatsuki followed by Kakuzu.



I didn't mean as tall as Kisame but adult hieght compared to Kisame since he's taller than most characters.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 6, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> If Nagato was 10 years older than Obito and Madara had noted he had grown then Obito can't be Tobi according to the timeline



Why?

Tobi and Nagato probably didn't meet until the latter was in his 30's.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Because people grow at different rates. Which you had to have proven to you by a fictional character in a manga!





Raventhal said:


> LikeNaruto
> 
> Itachi invalidates the argument. You claim that ever character grows the same height.  Itachi was adult height at 13 as can be seen in almost all of Itachi/Sasuke flash backs.



sorry.... Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all too short



First Tsurugi said:


> Seems pretty in character for a nihilistic misanthrope who views people as disposable tools.



Tobi? yes... Obito? no


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> If Nagato was 10 years older than Obito and Madara had noted he had grown then Obito can't be Tobi according to the timeline



That's if Tobi gave Nagato his eyes or Madara's eyes.  We know that the pretense of Tobi being Madara when he made the statement is false thus potential for the whole thing to be a lie.

For example the influence Yahiko to form Akatsuki.  Yahiko was talking world domination to change the world before he was ninja or even meet J-man.   Seems kind of silly that Tobi was going around influence random orphan kids with no ninja skills.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I didn't mean as tall as Kisame but adult hieght compared to Kisame since he's taller than most characters.



Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> If Nagato was 10 years older than Obito and Madara had noted he had grown then Obito can't be Tobi according to the timeline



obvious plothole right here

denial can explain everything though



First Tsurugi said:


> Why?
> 
> Tobi and Nagato probably didn't meet until the latter was in his 30's.



couldnt be more wrong

Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan as a child and spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki... Tobi obviously couldnt have done that if they met in his 30s


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> sorry.... Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all too short


Orochimaru and Tsunade weren't tall. By your logic Jiraiya should never have been taller than them.

What is this called? Nonsense.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> obvious plothole right here
> 
> denial can explain everything though
> 
> ...


It was Madara which created Akatsuki.
Moons eye was his original plan, Akatsuki was created in order to collect the Bijuus for the moons eye plan.
Kabuto even said that he had no clue whether the fake Madara still would stick with the plan which completely confirms that the moons eye is Madara's plan.
Everything points out the long haired masked man being the real Madara.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 13~ years old Itachi vs 20~ year old Kisame;
> 
> 
> 
> You might as well compare current Naruto's height with Tobi's in the last few chapters, or when he was talking with Minato in his belly.



Kisame still was a little bit taller, though. But whatever.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> obvious plothole right here
> 
> denial can explain everything though
> 
> ...



Again Tobi said that under the pretense that he was Madara.  He is not Madara.

Yahiko before meeting even meeting J man.   LikeNaruto


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It was Madara which created Akatsuki.



Yahiko was the one who created Akatsuki under the command of Tobi.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Yahiko was the one who created Akatsuki under the command of Tobi.


Under the command of Madara.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Kisame still was a little bit taller, though. But whatever.


You know what the point is? Height is irrelevant. Itachi was relatively tall when he was a boy, and Jiraiya was considerably taller than his teammates. Therefore, age and relative height are insignificant. It's so enormously obvious that they should never have qualified as a plot hole in the first place.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Orochimaru and Tsunade weren't tall. By your logic Jiraiya should never have been taller than them.
> 
> What is this called? Nonsense.



chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you



loool3 said:


> It was Madara which created Akatsuki.



no it was Tobi



Raventhal said:


> Again Tobi said that under the pretense that he was Madara.



Tobi was speaking as himself

he was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> You know what the point is? Height is irrelevant. Itachi was relatively tall when he was a boy, and Jiraiya was considerably taller than his teammates. Therefore, age and relative height are insignificant. It's so enormously obvious that they should never have qualified as a plot hole in the first place.



What are you saying? Me and Raventhal were just having a discussion about Itachi not being as tall as Kisame. It had nothing to do with Tobi.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tobi was also speaking for himself when he spoke about the Rinne Tensei was meant for ''him''.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you
> 
> 
> 
> no it was Tobi



You are ignoring the fact that Obito was taller than Kakashi. 

 What you are saying is rather silly and not supported by all the other examples of 15-16 year olds not being the same height.  Look at the Rookies they are all various heights.  Please stop being one dimensional with your argument and ignoring other evidence.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> What are you saying? Me and Raventhal were just having a discussion about Itachi not being as tall as Kisame. It had nothing to do with Tobi.



because he was making a point about his Obito theory

EDIT: sorry, "trying" to make a point




Raventhal said:


> You are ignoring the fact that Obito was taller than Kakashi.
> 
> What you are saying is rather silly and not supported by all the other examples of 15-16 year olds not being the same height.  Look at the Rookies they are all various heights.  Please stop being one dimensional with your argument and ignoring other evidence.





chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then it would be that Izuna is Tobi if...

1. Tobi was speaking for himself
2. That it's true that he gave Nagato his eyes.  

That means Kagami could not have given Nagato his eyes.


----------



## Saru (Aug 6, 2012)

Height doesn't matter. -.-'


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Under the command of Madara.



So, are you saying that Madara was the long haired masked man and that he told Yahiko to form the Akatsuki at the time he met Kisame when he was controlling Yagura or at the time he met Itachi?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

so Obito is all of a sudden a foot taller than Asuma?


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Again Tobi said that under the pretense that he was Madara.  He is not Madara.


That better not be Kishi's explanation for this shit - it was all an act. Is the Madara twist more important than coherent writing?

Even if it is acting, he still had to know the real Madara to get intimate knowledge about him, and dying when Nagato was young would definitely rule out Obito.  

Of course, we don't know exactly when he died, which makes this speculation at best.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so Obito is all of a sudden a foot taller than Asuma?



Asuma is 6'2, Tobi is 5'7...


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you


Nope. Kishimoto disagrees with _you_: The Sannin. Jiraiya was tall. Orochimaru and Tsunade are short. 

Congratulations, though. You've just invented the "theory" that your height is determined by your classmates' heights!


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> So, are you saying that Madara was the long haired masked man and that he told Yahiko to form the Akatsuki at the time he met Kisame when he was controlling Yagura or at the time he met Itachi?


Long haired masked man= real Madara, short one = Tobi.
Its funny how people fall for the long haired man being Tobi, Tobi litteraly showed Madara's whole flashbacks including when he was wearing a mask Tobi never even showed once up in the flashback.
More importantly Tobi joined Akatsuki afterwards, when he attacked the leaf 16 years ago he wasnt even wearing Akatsuki robes.
Zetsu didnt even knew about Tobi in the start when he just joined Akatsuki lol, according to the guys who believes the long haired man being Tobi, they support that Tobi created Akatsuki and started to invite members like Kisame in Akatsuki, but yet someone like Zetsu doesnt know about the creator of Akatsuki Tobi?
Its clearly the long haired masked man the real Madara which created the Akatsuki.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> That better not be Kishi's explanation for this shit - it was all an act. Is the Madara twist more important than coherent writing?
> 
> Even if it is acting, he still had to know the real Madara to get intimate knowledge about him, and dying when Nagato was young would definitely rule out Obito.
> 
> Of course, we don't know exactly when he died, which makes this speculation at best.



I agree.   There is nothing to 100% eliminate Obito or any of the Tobi theories except maybe Shishiu.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Long haired masked man= real Madara, short one = Tobi.
> Its funny how people fall for the long haired man being Tobi, Tobi litteraly showed Madara's whole flashbacks including when he was wearing a mask Tobi never even showed once up in the flashback.
> More importantly Tobi joined Akatsuki afterwards, when he attacked the leaf 16 years ago he wasnt even wearing Akatsuki robes.
> Zetsu didnt even knew about Tobi in the start when he just joined Akatsuki lol, according to the guys who believes the long haired man being Tobi, they support that Tobi created Akatsuki and started to invite members like Kisame in Akatsuki, but yet someone like Zetsu doesnt know about the creator of Akatsuki Tobi?
> Its clearly the long haired masked man the real Madara which created the Akatsuki.


You still have no explanation why Kisame recognized Tobi (short hair) as the same person who controlled Yagura (long hair). There was no hint from Tobi, he took off his mask and Kisame instantly knew him; "Mizukage... I mean Madara".


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Asuma is 6'2, Tobi is 5'7...



Asuma wasnt 6'2 during the Kyuubi attack

chapter 503 page 9



Raventhal said:


> I agree.   There is nothing to 100% eliminate Obito or any of the Tobi theories except maybe Shishiu.



Nagato is around 10 years older than Obito 

100% eliminated


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> You still have no explanation why Kisame recognized Tobi (short hair) as the same person who controlled Yagura (long hair). There was no hint from Tobi, he took off his mask and Kisame instantly knew him; "Mizukage... I mean Madara".


I told it like 100 times already lol, it could be anything, Madara explained Kisame Tobi taking his role over, Madara showed Tobi to him, it can be anything.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> You still have no explanation why Kisame recognized Tobi (short hair) as the same person who controlled Yagura (long hair). There was no hint from Tobi, he took off his mask and Kisame instantly knew him; "Mizukage... I mean Madara".



Actually it's all likely to be Tobi.  If you go by the ages of Itachi 13 and Kisame 18-22ish it's more recent than the Kyuubi attack.  

But then again you can change your appearance in this manga as well.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so Obito is all of a sudden a foot taller than Asuma?


A 80 years old Kagami was still tall as Tobi?
Look at Hiruzen which is almost smaller then Naruto, hoppa another Kagami plothole.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Asuma wasnt 6'2 during the Kyuubi attack
> 
> chapter 503 page 9
> 
> ...



Simple question are the rookies the same height.

Nagato being 10 years older than Nagato is not an eliminator.



loool3 said:


> A 80 years old Kagami was still tall as Tobi?
> Look at Hiruzen which is almost smaller then Naruto, hoppa another Kagami plothole.



Lol, he kills his own Kagami theory.  If Tobi gave Nagato his eyes than Kagami can not be Tobi.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I told it like 100 times already lol, it could be anything, Madara explained Kisame Tobi taking his role over, Madara showed Tobi to him, it can be anything.


Sure, anything is possible I guess, no matter how far-fetched.

The way Kisame talked it was like Tobi and long haired man are the same person. 

"I never would have suspected you were Tobi".

_Chapter 489_


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, he kills his own Kagami theory.  If Tobi gave Nagato his eyes than Kagami can not be Tobi.


Let him ignore his plotholes while hes bitching about some non sense, he wont be able to ignore the manga soon anyways.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sure, anything is possible I guess, no matter how far-fetched.
> 
> The way Kisame talked it was like Tobi and long haired man are the same person.
> 
> ...



Tobi with long hair was seen from like 14 years ago up and last seen 9 years ago during the Uchiha Massacre.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sure, anything is possible I guess, no matter how far-fetched.
> 
> The way Kisame talked it was like Tobi and long haired man are the same person.
> 
> ...


Jep, or it could have been a genjutsu when Tobi removed his mask, since Tobi was going around as Madara.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

youre the ones who are ignoring the plotholes 

Nagato is 10 years *older *than Obito... so it *cant *be him 

sadly i have to go for now... keep up the denial while im gone


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre the ones who are ignoring the plotholes
> 
> Nagato is 10 years *older *than Obito... so it *cant *be him
> 
> sadly i have to go for now... keep up the denial while im gone


Tobi is to tall for a 80 years old grandpa Kagami.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Let him ignore his plotholes while hes bitching about some non sense, he wont be able to ignore the manga soon anyways.


His reasoning is utterly devoid of sense.

Jacamo: Obito was too short.
X: Height doesn't matter.
Jacamo: Kishimoto disagrees. *shows page showing Obito's peers*
X: The rookies have different heights. The Sannin have different heights.
Jacamo: Kishimoto disagrees. *shows same page*
X: Itachi was relatively tall when he was young, as his interactions with Orochimaru and Kisame showed.
Jacamo: Obito was short. His peers were short. He couldn't have been Tobi. 
X: Peer height doesn't determine your height.
Jacamo: Kishimoto disagrees. *shows same page*
X: Again, the rookies, the Sannin, Itachi. Look at them.
Jacamo: Kishimoto disagrees. *shows same page*

I've heard better arguments from a stuttering schizophrenic.

I suggest that we focus on Thebaxman, who talks about timeline-related issues. They are good, highly significant areas of concern.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> His reasoning is utterly devoid of sense.
> 
> Jacamo: Obito was too short.
> X: Height doesn't matter.
> ...


The funny thing is his whole ''plothole'' list goes against his Kagami as well, anyways another reason to laugh so hard soon when Tobito gets revealed.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 6, 2012)

It's a good thing this whole debate will finally be put to rest in a few weeks because I'm sick of all these circular arguments of the same tired points.


----------



## Babby (Aug 6, 2012)

But I can't wait couple of weeks!


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Next chapter is reveal probaly since it again contains colored page, or rather ''incandescent'' colored page.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> His reasoning is utterly devoid of sense.
> 
> Jacamo: Obito was too short.
> X: Height doesn't matter.
> ...



  that's him EXACTLY      wish I could rep you.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Next chapter is reveal probaly since it again contains colored page, or rather ''incandescent'' colored page.



Tobi's identity is probably gonna be revealed at chapter 599 or 600. I doubt it's gonna be revealed this week.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobi's identity is probably gonna be revealed at chapter 599 or 600. I doubt it's gonna be revealed this week.


Nah, i dont see the reason why Kishi would put 2 colored paged chapters so close to each other, and why is this one even called ''incandescent''?

Anyways it will be a really pain since theres no chapters this week, and i am even clueless whenever we get spoiler.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The funny thing is his whole ''plothole'' list goes against his Kagami as well, anyways another reason to laugh so hard soon when Tobito gets revealed.



I believe the timeline is infinitely more relevant than this height thing. What interests me is the period between Madara's spurring of Yahiko and Obito's transformation into Tobi. I think it's likely that Madara died not long after he spurred Yahiko, and years later Nagato and Konan believed him to have returned in the form of Tobi. I wonder how they could have been fooled that Tobi was Madara. Or did they know that Tobi isn't Madara?


son_michael said:


> that's him EXACTLY       wish I could rep you.


Thanks, but that would be unnecessary.  I mean, it's quite easy to copy arguments that are... blatantly  shallow and childish.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> I believe the timeline is infinitely more relevant than this height thing. What interests me is the period between Madara's spurring of Yahiko and Obito's transformation into Tobi. I think it's likely that Madara died not long after he spurred Yahiko, and years later Nagato and Konan believed him to have returned in the form of Tobi. I wonder how they could have been fooled that Tobi was Madara. Or did they know that Tobi isn't Madara?


Good question about Yahiko, but Nagato/Konan definately thought Tobi being the real Madara.
Perhaps they got mindfqed when they first met the real Madara with the long hairs, after that Tobi took over the role with also a mask on which made them confuse.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 6, 2012)

Man there is so much we need to learn about Tobi I'm expecting at least ten full chapters of flashback.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

Same here ^

Tobi's mask breaking could maybe be the cliffhanger of chapter 599.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 6, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> His reasoning is utterly devoid of sense.



It's not about _sense_, in my opinion. His/her only motive for this entire time has been to exploit our desire to prove that we're the one's who are making sense, by use of ridicule, and ignoring any counter for it.

ex. person A: The POTUS is not Barack Obama. You're delusional.
person B: Yes, he is.
person C: Yes he is, here's the proof *shows proof*

Person A: No, he's not, person B. You're delusional. This is the POTUS *shows a picture of John McCain*.
Person B: What? Look at the proof from person C.
Person C: Here's more proof *shows more proof*.
Person A: You're delusional, Person B. Why can't you accept this plot hole?

The object is to frustrate person C, until insanity has been induced. Therefore, responses = win for person A.

This is all, of course, in my opinion.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Nah, i dont see the reason why Kishi would put 2 colored paged chapters so close to each other, and why is this one even called ''incandescent''?


I think that was embellished by the translator.

According to takL it just mentions color pages and "white hot" for excitement.



takL said:


> the preview page says
> 
> "★the super mega hit film in theatres now! &
> *white hot!! (the fight) vs tobi at the crescendo, leadoff with colour pages!! "*


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

Don't even know why the height thing is an issue.  Kishi has his little dimension excuse now to fill most plotholes.

Also i find it weird that most anti tobito theorists now conclude that tobi has obito's eye but is not Obito.  So did tobi also steal obito's haircut?

as for not being his mind well kishi heavily put a wrench in that theory when he ised his parallels once again and this time through his hero, mouth, and life of regret comments as it relates to the kakashi gaiden.


----------



## emanresu (Aug 6, 2012)

Obito = Obi To = To Obi = Tobi

hope this helps


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 6, 2012)

[sp=Tag yo' shit]
[/sp]
All this time we thought he was just a construction worker. But really he was a secret none violent low level uchiha building his own personal secret entrance to each village. Nobody ever seemed to notice him since he didn't belong to any village. This made him angry and this led him to think of himself as "no one". Madara approached him in the past and from then on the plan was set in motion ha ha ha haaaaaaa!!!!!!!!! Look at the hair, look at the wrinkles. Guy didn't remember him, he knows kakashi too


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> You still have no explanation why Kisame recognized Tobi (short hair) as the same person who controlled Yagura (long hair). There was no hint from Tobi, he took off his mask and Kisame instantly knew him; "Mizukage... I mean Madara".



yeah it's not like Madara could place a genjutsu on Kisame or anything. lol

The kakashi gaiden should have been named the Obito Gaiden. The plot focused on Obito more than Kakashi.


----------



## Rios (Aug 6, 2012)

Thats why he died and is not coming back.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> yeah it's not like Madara could place a genjutsu on Kisame or anything. lol


Sure he could, but why? There's no reason to when you already told him your identity. And Tobi didn't try to maintain the charade later, he went right up to Kisame. He could just keep the mask on and he'd be no wiser. Unless the long hair/short hair masked characters really are two different people.

Some of these theories are becoming convoluted as hell. What should be a simple reveal now requires a ton of supposition to fit every possible issue.


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

He already is back Plamen.  He just has a mask on now.



Easley said:


> Sure he could, but why? There's no reason to when you already told him your identity. And Tobi didn't try to maintain the charade later, he went right up to Kisame. He could just keep the mask on and he'd be no wiser. Unless the long hair/short hair masked characters really are two different people.
> 
> Some of these theories are becoming convoluted as hell. What should be a simple reveal now requires a ton of supposition to fit every possible issue.



If Madara wanted obito to impersonate him then why would he not? The other choice is that kisame was made aware of the impersonation.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sure he could, but why? There's no reason to when you already told him your identity. And Tobi didn't try to maintain the charade later, he went right up to Kisame. He could just keep the mask on and he'd be no wiser. Unless the long hair/short hair masked characters really are two different people.
> 
> Some of these theories are becoming convoluted as hell. What should be a simple reveal now requires a ton of supposition to fit every possible issue.



The theory only gets convoluted when you start speculating for plot holes instead of just focusing the hints and evidence that Obito is Tobi.  There are quite a number of things pointing to Obito.  More so than the other theories.

The problem I have is that some people just want more and more speculation to fill plot holes and then get mad at the speculation. 

Like Tobi pretending to Madara claims he gave Nagato his eyes and influenced Yahiko to create Akatsuki.  

1. Tobi is pretending to be someone else but his words are taken as canon.  I go and say I'm Obama and Obama gave nuclear weapons to bin Ladin.  I am uncovered as not Obama but just his secretary.   How reliable is this guy's word going to be used to incriminate Obama?

2. We see in panels that Nagato awakened his own Rinnegan.  This automatically dismissed but a lairs words are canon.   It's known Senju/Uzumaki = younger son and Uchiha = Elder son and the two combined = Rinnegan.  This means there at least a chance that Nagato wakened his own eyes or sharingan implantation that's not Madaras.

3.  We see panels with Yahiko talking about his dreams to rule the world when he was regular orphan kid no ninja training.  Yet this panel is dismissed in favor the words of Tobi a known liar and even Konan lacked knowledge of this despite being with Nagato and Yahiko almost all the time.  

That's not fan ficition.  It's another way to view the knowledge given.   It's also people dismissing visual panels in favor of Tobi's words.   The main reason it's taken as canon is because most people were convinced that Tobi was Madara thus it became and remains fact after Tobi is exposed as not Madara.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> sorry.... Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all too short


Too short for what? It's not like we're saying that they're Tobi. We're saying Tobi is Obito. DO you know exactly how tall Obito could have grown? No. So shut up.





> Tobi? yes... Obito? no


But Tobi IS Obito!



jacamo said:


> chapter 503 page 9.... Kishi disagrees with you


Kishi disagrees with you:





> no it was Tobi


Proof?





> Tobi was speaking as himself
> 
> he was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan


So Tobi said he was Madara, thus would naturally claim his feats as his own, so when he claims a feat that was most likely Madara's, that's when you say he was speaking as himself, and you have no evidence to support your claim. You're both denying the manga and sacrificing common sense just to try and prove something that can't be proven with the knowledge we currently possess.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> What are you saying? Me and Raventhal were just having a discussion about Itachi not being as tall as Kisame. It had nothing to do with Tobi.


So in other words... off topic, bro?



TH4N4T0S said:


> His reasoning is utterly devoid of sense.
> 
> Jacamo: Obito was too short.
> X: Height doesn't matter.
> ...


Lol. Couldn't have said it better myself.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobi's identity is probably gonna be revealed at chapter 599 or 600. I doubt it's gonna be revealed this week.


Why not?

it's the last chapter of the volume, there's currently a two week break, there's gonna be a color page, Tobi's talk with Sasuke started on 397. It all adds up!



First Tsurugi said:


> Man there is so much we need to learn about Tobi I'm expecting at least ten full chapters of flashback.


Most likely.



Tobitobi said:


> It's not about _sense_, in my opinion. His/her only motive for this entire time has been to exploit our desire to prove that we're the one's who are making sense, by use of ridicule, and ignoring any counter for it.
> 
> ex. person A: The POTUS is not Barack Obama. You're delusional.
> person B: Yes, he is.
> ...


O__O

It's a conspiracy, then...


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> If Madara wanted obito to impersonate him then why would he not? The other choice is that kisame was made aware of the impersonation.


I doubt Kishi will complicate this too much. Kisame said "Mizukage... I mean Madara" when seeing Tobi's face and right now it could just be that simple; he's the man who controlled Yagura. Obito and Madara knowing each other means Madara lived far longer than people think.  That needs explaining.



Raventhal said:


> The theory only gets convoluted when you start speculating for plot holes instead of just focusing the hints and evidence that Obito is Tobi.  There are quite a number of things pointing to Obito.  More so than the other theories.
> 
> The problem I have is that some people just want more and more speculation to fill plot holes and then get mad at the speculation.


Well, that's the problem, not everyone views hints and evidence the same way. What could be very convincing to Tobito supporters might just be a load of crap to another person. Facts that help determine Tobi's identity are scarce at the moment. Most arguments are speculation with nothing concrete to back them up.

The best piece of Obito evidence was in the latest chapter. Kamui and Tobi's intangibility. That is something substantial, but nothing prior to this has been convincing. Too much speculation and/or supposition. All theories are equally guilty.

I can't help feeling that Kishi is pushing the readers in a certain direction, only to pull the rug from under them.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

*@Easley:* But you can't forget that Obito fits Kishi's writing style! That's something none of the other theories have. It's also not something Kishi can throw us off on considering that it's the way he writes.


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

Kishi already gqve a possible explanation to how Madara might have survived longer than thought. Sure it was through Tobi but nothing prevents kiahi from using it for real.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> I doubt Kishi will complicate this too much. Kisame said "Mizukage... I mean Madara" when seeing Tobi's face and right now it could just be that simple; he's the man who controlled Yagura. Obito and Madara knowing each other means Madara lived far longer than people think.  That needs explaining.
> 
> Well, that's the problem, not everyone views hints and evidence the same way. What could be very convincing to Tobito supporters might just be a load of crap to another person. Facts that help determine Tobi's identity are scarce at the moment. Most arguments are speculation with nothing concrete to back them up.
> 
> ...



That's one reason I didn't believe in the Obito theory at first.  Of course there are opinions on how valid the hints are or not.  The fact that the hints should lend some respectability to the theory even if you don't believe because they're actually in the manga.  That's what most Obito theorist want.

You have people dismiss hints and circumstantial evidence that added together makes Obito theory by collabortory evidence.  These are not made up and are in the manga.  You have them turn around and talk about their theory of whoever.  There theory has no hints or circumstantial evidence or anything in the manga.  It's 100 percent speculation/fan fiction.  It's beyond hypocritical.


----------



## Timeshift (Aug 6, 2012)

Kishi wants us to think the masked man knows both Kakashi and Gai personally. If Kishi usually doesn't hint like this (for example, did he give any hints on Minato being Naruto's father?), it could indicate this to be a red herring.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> Kishi already gqve a possible explanation to how Madara might have survived longer than thought. Sure it was through Tobi but nothing prevents kiahi from using it for real.


I'd love to take character statements at face value, but after Tobi's lies I'm very reluctant. Kishi said Madara and Tobi know each other. I hope he can explain that believably if he's Obito, and how Madara lived long enough to meet him. I find it implausible at the moment. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *@Easley:* But you can't forget that Obito fits Kishi's writing style! That's something none of the other theories have. It's also not something Kishi can throw us off on considering that it's the way he writes.


Kishi does have a certain style that Tobito might fit, but he made a mess of it with Tobi acting. Even people who support the theory think Tobi is a liar.

His red herrings are obvious - like Yahiko being Pain and Jiraiya acting confused because he had the Rinnegan. I mean, honestly. Tobi is more troublesome since we haven't seen anyone with a similar ability, except Kakashi. I find the extreme obviousness too crazy to be true. I assume Kishi _wants_ to surprise people with this reveal?

I'm not a huge fan of the Tobito theory, that should be clear by now, but it's my personal dislike of Obito being Tobi, not because I think its impossible.


----------



## Kid (Aug 6, 2012)

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]


----------



## cms21023 (Aug 6, 2012)

*Tobi = ??*

Before anybody goes on and on about another Tobi thread, I am very interested to hear what people have to say to my question I am about to ask. My question is, not who do you think Tobi is, but who do you want Tobi to be? Why ? Explain how if Tobi = XX , it would make an epic reveal.

 I personally don't give a shit who it will be. I just want it to be epic when it comes to explaining past events and learning the history behind him hiding his identity this whole time. Sort of like when Aizen was revealed to be the mastermind antagonist in Bleach. Like when they showed how he did everything, mindfuckd everybody and so on and so on.


----------



## Xin (Aug 6, 2012)

The Kagami people seriously believe that Kagami is Tobi? I always thought they were just making fun. Like the Sasuke from the future theory guys.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

KidKid said:


> [sp][/sp]




That's the anime. It doesn't help the theory at all.

I seriously lol at how Kagami supporters use only anime images to compare his face to Tobi's. The anime didn't even give an accurate portrayal of the little of his face that we had seen in the manga.




			
				Easley said:
			
		

> His red herrings are obvious - like Yahiko being Pain and Jiraiya acting confused because he had the Rinnegan. I mean, honestly. Tobi is more troublesome since we haven't seen anyone with a similar ability, except Kakashi. I find the extreme obviousness too crazy to be true. I assume Kishi wants to surprise people with this reveal?


Kishi's not exactly a master of mystery, lol. So if Tobi being Obito seems too obvious, it's probably cuz Tobi is Obito.

besides, Tobi's identity needs to fit for plot reasons as well, not solely just shock value.

Remember, Kishi aims at the general audience, not people like us on forums who analyze everything. I'm sure there are alot of people who never even thought of tobi being obito because they didn't examine things closely.


----------



## Kid (Aug 6, 2012)

I love the people who are taking my picture seriously


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

*@KidKid:* So I take it you posted it jokingly? Get off then if you're not going to be serious or contribute anything.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kishi's not exactly a master of mystery, lol. So if Tobi being Obito seems too obvious, it's probably cuz Tobi is obito.


Maybe, and I'm not happy about that. People have waited years for this moment... hell, some people have probably died and will never see it 

It's been 7 years I think, now that is a long time. Too long for somebody (Tobito) that a large percentage of the fanbase will hate. I'm ambivalent. I won't like it, but I'll give Kishi a chance if Tobi's backstory is good. If he's Obito it's obvious who the sob story will be about. Rin.


----------



## Kid (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *@KidKid:* So I take it you posted it jokingly? Get off then if you're not going to be serious or contribute anything.



Yes I was making a joke , now what? Are you the boss in here?
-________-
Get lost bro


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 6, 2012)

I hope it's either Izuna or Kagami. Shisui would be nice too, but it wouldn't make sense, neither does the Tobito theory.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 6, 2012)

I don't care who he is, as long as it makes sense and it fits perfectly with no plot holes. Which will be pretty hard.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 6, 2012)

No jokes, i really hope he is an experimental mixture of Madara and Minato Uzumaki.



KidKid said:


> [sp][/sp]



Oh you. Got me there:<

I cant belivie people are seriously taking this seriously.

Izuna and Kagami theories can go to hell in my opinion. :>

Izuna=officially dead and by the way, Madara called Tobi "him" and later on said Izuna is dead, so how the FK does it makes sense?


Kagami=even if he CAN be Tobi with the backstory, it doesnt make any sense to hide Tobis identity and after some years randomly add Kagami. Kagami could have been a part of Tobis life, but fuck no, you dont hide someones face and just add that character in one page years after. Unless youre the biggest MF troll in the world.


----------



## cms21023 (Aug 6, 2012)

i agree with about the part that it works with no plot holes, it seems like that cant happen thou -.- thats why this reveal is guna be really epic or really shitty. I hope kishi whips some crazy shit outta his ass, and it turns out to be somebody we never guessed, but makes perfect good sense and is guna leave us mind blown


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

After years of arguing about Tobi, I still have no idea who I _want_ him to be. It's true!

I was satisfied with the Madara reveal in chapter 364. That scene with the lightning was awesome. Kishi had other ideas though.

I don't know, maybe an Uzumaki. Tobi fooling us about being an Uchiha would be sweet.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 6, 2012)

^That would be pretty sweet, but i doubt Kishi has the balls to do that..

I doubt it's Kagami, i don't support any theory but i seriously think it's unlikely to be Kagami. Most chances probably have Izuna and Obito.


----------



## Kid (Aug 6, 2012)

Nope can't be Izuna


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)




----------



## Obli (Aug 6, 2012)

I want it to be Fugaku, so Naruto can kill Sasuke's father. 

Fugaku tired of cleaning up the shit from an imperfect village system as the head of police. Zetsu clone and genjutsu on Itachi at night of massacre. 

Asking Yondaime about the death of Obito, it's a genin of his clan under the watch of the "mighty" Hokage. Learns of it's position and let Zetsu clean the body and sharingan up. 

Explains the life of regret Kakashi comment, as Fugaku must have known all the jounins. 

Been cooperating with Madara from the start and played the role of Konoha lapdog brilliantly.

Learnt of the birth of Naruto from his wife. Knew the defence systems. Was away at night of the Kyuubi attack, as we seen Itachi babysitting Sasuke. 

*wildcard, mother is still alive aswell.


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

The chances of it being izuna basically went out the window when Kishi hinted at tobi knowing Gai and Kakashi personally two chapters ago.


----------



## Babby (Aug 6, 2012)

As long as he's not Obito.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Obito, want to see how right i was and which points i missed.


----------



## takL (Aug 6, 2012)

its either 10b 1b or the elderson of rikudoh possessing randam uchihas for generations. there've been a long haired tobi, a short haired tobi, a cha-la tobi(aka good boy tobi), a madara tobi, an obitobi and so on.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> The chances of it being izuna basically went out the window when Kishi hinted at tobi knowing Gai and Kakashi personally two chapters ago.


Kinda agree here now that i think about it. There is too much in common beetwen Tobi and Obito, but i wonder how will Kishi explain Obito getting evil.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Alright, I mirrored Tobi's face on paint and connected it. So, now we can get an accurate view of the top half of his face:










You're welcome!


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Kinda agree here now that i think about it. There is too much in common beetwen Tobi and Obito, but i wonder how will Kishi explain Obito getting evil.


There are more important things to reveal, the evil thing is nothing compared to that lol, nearly every character changed their personality from good to bad or from bad to good; Oro, Sasuke, Gaara, Itachi, Neji, and go on.
The only thing is how Obito and Madara knew each other, and thats pretty much filled if the long haired masked man is indeed the real Madara.

Its just the common way of making a masked character in our case Tobi; 
-Put every obvious thing to make him look like as Obito, even his name.
-Destroy all these obvious things by revealing him as someone else.
-Put in some obstackles for point 1.
-Destroy point 2 by revealing the real guy.
-Continue slowly again with points 1 and then reveal him and explain point 3.

Its obvious that even the true person of the masked man should have some arguments against it to make it a less obvious.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're welcome!


... Sometimes it seems as if you guys are trying to convince yourselves, rather than others.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Alright, I mirrored Tobi's face on paint and connected it. So, now we can get an accurate view of the top half of his face:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No matter what people think or say, this is 2000% the way Tobito is getting revealed;

Thats why Kishi hide it several times.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Even here on the third panel you can see that Tobi has no scars on his face, nobody can refuse this.



Not to mention the boulders in the background of Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> There are more important things to reveal, the evil thing is nothing compared to that lol, nearly every character changed their personality from good to bad or from bad to good; Oro, Sasuke, Gaara, Itachi, Neji, and go on.
> The only thing is how Obito and Madara knew each other, and thats pretty much filled if the long haired masked man is indeed the real Madara.
> 
> Its just the common way of making a masked character in our case Tobi;
> ...


Exactly. That's why Kagami makes no sense.



SaiST said:


> ... Sometimes it seems as if you guys are trying to convince yourselves, rather than others.


You just pissed cuz he doesn't look like Izuna?!:ho



loool3 said:


> No matter what people think or say, this is 2000% the way Tobito is getting revealed;
> 
> Thats why Kishi hide it several times.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Why the hell would Kagami have a half crushed face and have a perfectly young/unscarred other side of his face?


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> ... Sometimes it seems as if you guys are trying to convince yourselves, rather than others.



sometimes i feel like anti tobito theorists are doing the same.  I used to believe Tobi was madara's soul inhabiting Obito's body, unfortunately recent events seem to point at tobi being who people thought he originally was and that's Obito.  To me the Hero and the Mouth comments sealed the deal.  Kishi basically gave us the answer in his own subtle way.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You just pissed cuz he doesn't look like Izuna?!:ho


More like bewildered by the extent some of you can reach.

I think the recent conversation with Gai, and the possible connections his Jikuukan Idou may have with Kakashi's Kamui are more than sufficient enough to make your case. But when you start likening the appearance of flying rock 'n debris created from a Rasengan's explosive impact to the technique(s) that eventually caused Obito's apparent death, I can't help but smile.

Also, it would be wise not to automatically assume that everybody that questions how you're going about trying to support this theory, is entirely against it.



Nic said:


> sometimes i feel like anti tobi theorists are doing the same.


All sides of the discussion are, at varying degrees.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

In one spoiler, I've just posted EVERY SINGLE panel Kagami Uchiha has ever had in the manga.

That's really sad.  -____-

Besides, if you compare him to the pictures I posted above, he doesn't even look like Tobi.



			
				SaiST said:
			
		

> More like bewildered by the extent some of you can reach.
> 
> I think the recent conversation with Gai, and the possible connections his Jikuukan Idou may have with Kakashi's Kamui are more than sufficient enough to make your case. But when you start likening the appearance of flying rock 'n debris created from a Rasengan's explosive impact to the technique(s) that eventually caused Obito's apparent death, I can't help but smile.


If it wasn't arranged in exactly the same manner I wouldn't have noticed it. But when you say it like that, it _does_ sound rather silly.

I never considered it to even plausibly be a hint anyway. I just thought I'd post it. it was more of a joke post really, but you really never know.



> Also, it would be wise not to automatically assume that everybody that questions how you're going about trying to support this theory, is entirely against it.


I didn't.

My response to you was a joke post...

Evident by the :ho


----------



## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

A joke post accompanied by a neg for my own.

<insert giant rolleyes.gif here>​
Anyways, continue with what you were doing. I'll be moving along now.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> The chances of it being izuna basically went out the window when Kishi hinted at tobi knowing Gai and Kakashi personally two chapters ago.



I think he said "You deserve to live a pitifull life/life of regret" to Kakashi actually.

And what he meant is that why should he tell Gai who he really is, cause Gai wont remember it anyways. The translations sometimes sucks, like how that pitch called a girl "him" and "her" in the same chapter.

I doubt he even knows Kakashi and Gai. He called them insects when they showed themselves.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 6, 2012)

As if Kishimoto cares about proportions. He doesn't, at all.  Not even in the Tobi vs Minato did Kishimoto care about proportions. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




^This is _impossible_.




Honestly, the height debacle is such a non issue. Kishimoto isn't going to measure this crap properly. Doesn't really matter if they look the same height. If Kishimoto wants Obito to grow 20 cm in a year (or year and half), he'll do it. If it's a drawing mistake, then he's going to say 'my bad'.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> A joke post accompanied by a neg for my own.
> 
> <insert giant rolleyes.gif here>​
> Anyways, continue with what you were doing. I'll be moving along now.


1. Never negged a mod before.
2. You keep on using  on all your posts. Makes ya seem really arrogant.



			
				Escargon said:
			
		

> I think he said "You deserve to live a pitifull life/life of regret" to Kakashi actually.
> 
> And what he meant is that why should he tell Gai who he really is, cause Gai wont remember it anyways. The translations sometimes sucks, like how that pitch called a girl "him" and "her" in the same chapter.


Then why did what he said shock Kakashi and Guy and prompt Guy to ask him who he was? And why did Tobi and Kakashi stare at each other after that little convo?



> I doubt he even knows Kakashi and Gai. He called them insects when they showed themselves.


Because that's what they are against the Rinnegan and Sharingan. It's nothing indicative of whether he knows the two or not.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> 1. Never negged a mod before.
> 
> 2. You keep on using  on all your posts. Makes ya seem really ignorant.


You have 218 posts in this thread. That's a lot for someone with . 
Your nearest rival is jacamo with 82. 

I have 67!

If Obito begs for death it should be a stoning I think!


----------



## Escargon (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> 1. Never negged a mod before.
> 2. You keep on using  on all your posts. Makes ya seem really arrogant.
> 
> Then why did what he said shock Kakashi and Guy and prompt Guy to ask him who he was? And why did Tobi and Kakashi stare at each other after that little convo?
> ...



1. This manga makes so much sense in some points. One thing points out that Tobi is Obito, next page, its fked.. I dont know what to belivie. I gave up when the sixth coffin contained Madara. 

2. Well that can be the case.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

> You have 218 posts in this thread. That's a lot for someone with .


Why are you surprised? Debating Tobi's identity was the main reason I joined this forum. 

Besides, what does how many posts I have have to do with me using ?



> Your nearest rival is jacamo with 82.


Dat jacamo!



> I have 66!


Good for you, then.



> If Obito begs for death it should be a stoning I think!


What?



			
				Escargon said:
			
		

> 1. This manga makes so much sense in some points. One thing points out that Tobi is Obito, next page, its fked.. I dont know what to belivie. I gave up when the sixth coffin contained Madara.


Lol. Kishi's a master of mindfucking. 



> 2. Well that can be the case.


Tobi does seem to be pretty confident in his power after all.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 6, 2012)

Exhibit Tobi = Obito #735152

Notice this shit.It's interesting that the narrator's voice chooses to do flowery speech about Obito's name is in the stone and doesn't directly say he's dead. 

I still think Izuna is a possibility though.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What?


Rocks, stones.. a stoning? I thought it was a decent joke! Oh well, poor Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Ch1p said:
			
		

> Exhibit Tobi = Obito #735152
> 
> Notice this shit. It's interesting that the narrator's voice chooses to do flowery speech about Obito's name is in the stone and doesn't directly say he's dead.


Lol, you're looking way too deep into it.



> I still think Izuna is a possibility though.


Yeah. only Obito and Izuna make sense. I doubt it's Izuna though judging by what Madara said.

Edit: Just noticed. This is the fastest Tobi's identity thread so far. We're already on page 76!

I bet we can make it to Part 4 before Tobi's identity is revealed!


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah. only Obito and Izuna make sense. I doubt it's Izuna though judging by what Madara said.


Making sense is not Kishi's priority or he wouldn't have Danzo sporting a sharingan arm. That doesn't make a lick of sense even now. Eyes on arms? Yep, that's crazy even for Naruto.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> Making sense is not Kishi's priority or he wouldn't have Danzo sporting a sharingan arm. That doesn't make a lick of sense even now. Eyes on arms? Yep, that's crazy even for Naruto.


That's not the point I was trying to make, lol.

Madara knows who Tobi is as they are working together, and Madara said that his brother was dead and that all that remained of him was his eyes and their power.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's not the point I was trying to make, lol.
> 
> Madara knows who Tobi is as they are working together, and Madara said that his brother was dead and that all that remained of him was his eyes and their power.


All I'm saying is don't rule out crazy explanations. Kishi doesn't always write this manga from a logical standpoint. He thinks of something cool and then does it, no questions asked. 

Tobi's manga reveal is very close to the AU in the movie? Is it a hint? That pocket dimension is suspicious.


----------



## Vash (Aug 6, 2012)




----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> All I'm saying is don't rule out crazy explanations. Kishi doesn't always write this manga from a logical standpoint. He thinks of something cool and then does it, no questions asked.


Yeah, but since he follows his themes strongly, I'm pretty sure it's Obito. Obito fits with all of Kishi's established themes. Izuna only fits with the brothers theme.




> Tobi's manga reveal is very close to the AU in the movie? Is it a hint? That pocket dimension is suspicious.


What do you mean? 

What the hell is _that_ supposed to mean?

Something I think still needs to be clarified is what Tobi meant when he said he was No One:



It could mean alot of things. it's just a matter of figuring out which meaning is the most likely...


----------



## sjbluedog24 (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah, but since he follows his themes strongly, I'm pretty sure it's Obito. Obito fits with all of Kishi's established themes. Izuna only fits with the brothers theme.
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
> ...



lol. Time traveling Obito.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why are you surprised? Debating Tobi's identity was the main reason I joined this forum.



Does that mean you're gonna leave after Tobi's identity is revealed?



Beverly424 said:


> i think Tobi = Kagami... father of Obito
> 
> Kakashi had a father-son thing going on right? well..........



I think you're the same person who posted this same thing here a while back and a mod deleted it. Stop posting stupid statements that someone has already said.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What do you mean?


Did Kishi write the AU to be standalone? It's in the movie but is it unique to that? I can't ignore how close it is to Tobi's reveal in the manga. 

Hopefully, Tobi isn't from another universe or something crazy like that.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Does that mean you're gonna leave after Tobi's identity is revealed?


Of course not. Just because it was my main reason for joining doesn't mean I'm going to leave after the reveal.





> I think you're the same person who posted this same thing here a while back and a mod deleted it. Stop posting stupid statements that someone has already said.


I think it's an adbot, lol.



			
				Easley said:
			
		

> Did Kishi write the AU to be standalone? It's in the movie but is it unique to that? I can't ignore how close it is to Tobi's reveal in the manga.
> 
> Hopefully, Tobi isn't from another universe or something crazy like that.


I don't even think Tobi's mask came off in the movie.

I still think people are forgetting this panel. If we want to get closer to tobi's identity, we need to find out what he meant by saying he's No one:

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]



There's also this: Just look at the shape of Tobi's eye there and looka t his eyelid. it just screams Obito. Even the diolouge sounds like a depressed, evil Obito!


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't even think Tobi's mask came off in the movie.


It didn't, but what if the AU is not movie only? A character with access to a pocket dimension is very convenient. He could be anyone, from any place. 

I hope not. The only parallel universe stories I can stand are in Star Trek.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> It didn't, but what if the AU is not movie only? A character with access to a pocket dimension is very convenient. He could be anyone, from any place.
> 
> I hope not. The only parallel universe stories I can stand are in Star Trek.


You're over thinking things. Don't worry. The movie is non-canon. And I doubt any elements from it will show up in the manga canon.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Obito theory seemed so ridiculous to me not to long ago.  

Main thing for me is to stop focusing so much on the plot holes and timeline stuff.  Then I started looking for hints and any kind of evidence of who Tobi was and see who had the most.  There are far too many hints, symbolism, cirmstantial evidence pointing to Obito and a drastic lack of hints of him being anyone else once the real Madara out of contention.  It really smacked me in the face on how much other theories are pure speculation and how many obvious hints with Obito.  

Then I started looking into what parts of the plot that make the Obito theory ridiculous and they're all from Tobi himself.  It's almost like Kish is using Tobi himself to cloud the water since the majority of the evidence points to Tobi being Obito.

There are panels in the manga such as Nagato awakening his eyes and his powers blossoming and Yahiko talking about his dreams that are ignored because Tobi established his word as Madara's word and it stuck as canon.  Problem is Tobi has been proven a fraud yet his words still hold weight despite visual evidence going the other way.  People refuse to see that there is a possibility that Tobi was blustering maybe to avoid a fight and get Nagato's eyes and Madara simply knew of Nagato and was working on a plan to have him revive him at some point. 

There are a lot of possibilities but people are close minded to assumptions established as canon.


----------



## p0002q (Aug 6, 2012)

I stick to what I've thought for a long time now.

Tobi is an izanagi\creation of all things creation of Madara. (I think the creation technique is simply the true potential of izanagi)

With that being said, there are countless possibilities that could involve a lot of other theories (in a way)

Madara used Izuna's body as the "imagination\physical" part of izanagi and used his own power or the power he obtained from Hashirama's DNA to power his creation.
(Just like the sage 'created' the individual tailed beasts and then used the power from the 10tails to power his creations).

To me it makes the most sense and with zetsu who can eat\clone.... It wouldn't suprise me if Tobi is weilding a restored Obito eye.

The Tobi being created by Madara also could explain the extensive knowledge Tobi has on the Leaf Village \ Leaf Clans, Minato and his wife, Legendary weapons, etc. etc. Tobi has an intense amount of knowledge in general.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, I haven't been on this forum in ages 


edit: between the creation technique idea , zetsu powers and all the experiments that have been done with Hashirama\Senju DNA... the possibilities and combinations are quite extensive compared to just saying Tobi is ____.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

p0002q said:


> I stick to what I've thought for a long time now.
> 
> Tobi is an izanagi\creation of all things creation of Madara. (I think the creation technique is simply the true potential of izanagi)
> 
> ...



Whoever Tobi is he had plenty of time to study living in the shadows for years.  

Tobi first appears 16 years ago on Naruto's birthday.
Masked Man next appears to Kisame with long hair about 10 to 14 years ago.
Masked Man next appears with long hair being found creeping around 9 years ago by 13 year old Itachi. 
Tobi then appears with Zetsu I believe with short hair and orange mask, orange and blue/black outfit.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

p0002q said:
			
		

> I stick to what I've thought for a long time now.
> 
> Tobi is an izanagi\creation of all things creation of Madara. (I think the creation technique is simply the true potential of izanagi)
> 
> ...


Wow. This was very well thought out.

But from a storytelling point of view, this wouldn't be too wise. in order for tobi's identity to have any impact, he has to be an actual person.

I'd rep but I'm 24'd.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 6, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Exhibit Tobi = Obito #735152
> 
> Notice this shit.It's interesting that the narrator's voice chooses to do flowery speech about Obito's name is in the stone and doesn't directly say he's dead.
> 
> I still think Izuna is a possibility though.



Wait what the glasses still intact? I must have missed it somewhere


I see Snape  SNAPE IS TOBI!?



p0002q said:


> I stick to what I've thought for a long time now.
> 
> Tobi is an izanagi\creation of all things creation of Madara. (I think the creation technique is simply the true potential of izanagi)
> 
> ...



Kishi kinda explained the white substance of Tobi in this war. Maybe itll give a hint. And no-one too. Basically a clone of Madara that just carries orders. 

But in the other hand, it seems that Tobi got two different shapes around the eyes. The left one is wrinkled, the right one has no wrinkles. Obito got a wrinkle above his eye while Tobi doesnt have any wrinkles at all around his right eye. 

Just look at the picture below.

Guys, what if Tobi really got no identity? What if that face hides something that will mindfuck us all? 

Tobi teased Naruto about his face. "If you want to see whats under my mask." That can mean anything.


----------



## Easley (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're over thinking things. Don't worry. The movie is non-canon. And I doubt any elements from it will show up in the manga canon.


I wasn't over thinking it, just considering what Kishi might do. Frankly, he's capable of anything. People have this notion that his writing is predictable. That may be true _sometimes_ but his reveals are strange and come out of nowhere. Most of Akatsuki were hiding bizarre powers and appearances under their cloaks. Sasori was a living puppet, Kakuzu had multiple hearts in ghosts, Pain had six bodies. I'd be amazed if Tobi is 'normal' after all this craziness.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> I wasn't over thinking it, just considering what Kishi might do. Frankly, he's capable of anything. People have this notion that his writing is predictable. That may be true _sometimes_ but his reveals are strange and come out of nowhere. Most of Akatsuki were hiding bizarre powers and appearances under their cloaks. Sasori was a living puppet, Kakuzu had multiple hearts in ghosts, Pain had six bodies. I'd be amazed if Tobi is 'normal' after all this craziness.



We already know he has detachable/retachable arms goo arms.  

It's weird a how a ninja manga is focused on all out explosion battles, mad scientist and Frankstien monsters.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> I wasn't over thinking it, just considering what Kishi might do. Frankly, he's capable of anything. People have this notion that his writing is predictable. That may be true sometimes but his reveals are strange and come out of nowhere. Most of Akatsuki were hiding bizarre powers and appearances under their cloaks. Sasori was a living puppet, Kakuzu had multiple hearts in ghosts, Pain had six bodies. I'd be amazed if Tobi is 'normal' after all this craziness.


But that's just it. It would be so ironic if the leader of this freak fest organization is the most 'normal' one.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> The theory only gets convoluted when you start speculating for plot holes instead of just focusing the hints and evidence that Obito is Tobi.  There are quite a number of things pointing to Obito.  More so than the other theories.



I can word it differently:
The theory only gets convoluted when you start looking for inconsistencies, instead of just focusing on the evidence that the moon is made of cheese. There are quite a number of things pointing to cheese. More so than other theories.

o_o

...This was a rather silly example, but I think if your view is biased enough, you'll overlook the biggest of plot holes and inconsistencies. Things can simply "easily be explained by *this* or *that*". <-If it is at this level, the theory crumbles the more inconsistencies have to be explained by fan-fic level speculation.

Everyone is biased in one way or another, no matter how open minded you think you are.

I'm waiting for 600, as I'm sure the mask will come off then. After that it's probably 2-4 chapters with explanations, flashbacks, etc. before the Jubi have to be dealt with.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 6, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> I can word it differently:
> The theory only gets convoluted when you start looking for inconsistencies, instead of just focusing on the evidence that the moon is made of cheese. There are quite a number of things pointing to cheese. More so than other theories.
> 
> o_o
> ...



That's not what I'm saying though.  

1. I looked at evidence and hints before eliminating with plot holes.  There is pretty much nothing in the manga besides a few things for Izuna that support any of the other popular theories.  Most of what we know lends credit to Obito being the masked man.

2. I looked at is it impossible for Obito to be Tobi.  With what's popularly accepted as canon makes it impossible that Tobi gave Nagato Madara's eyes and Madara dying shortly after.  Means Obito is too young.  Madara has never said he gave his eyes to anyone, though he knows of Nagato and he thought he would bring him back and called him a brat indicating a young age.  

3. I looked at that evidence and found flaws in it because the narrator was proved to be a fraud, Tobi himself.  His word was taken as canon because he was Madara but he's not Madara.  He's an fraud.  Both of his statements also go against panels we've seen of Nagato awakening his eyes and Yahiko as a kid dreaming already.  

I am not against other theories but this late in the game I have a hard time believing that the story is going to red herring Obito with more hints lately than before and smack us with a character nobody knows.  Tobi's not just a mystery character like Nagato, he's a masked mystery character.  Almost all masked men are either double characters or someone the fans would recognize thought dead or lost.  I've looked for double characters in Naruto but the Kyuubi attack eliminates mostly everyone.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 6, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> That's not what I'm saying though.
> 
> 1. I looked at evidence and hints before eliminating with plot holes.  There is pretty much nothing in the manga besides a few things for Izuna that support any of the other popular theories.  Most of what we know lends credit to Obito being the masked man.
> 
> ...



I picked out something that looked like a biased prone way of arriving at a conclusion, not necessarily your whole argument.

Yup, the Tobito theory heavily relies on Tobi's (Obito's) trustability as a narrator. That is not all though. Tobi, as shown in the manga, have to be 2 different people as well, (Madara and Obito), unless Obito uses some sort of time travelling/dimension swapping/etc ability.
Tobi = Obito would also automatically render other characters as unreliable narrators. Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Kisame, Jiraya... But at a lesser extend, and it's pretty much a given.

It's all good, but what I find somewhat hard to swallow are his reasons to lie when he doesn't need to. When he "lied" to Kabuto, I wonder what Kabuto thought?

And we don't know if Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, or if Yahiko was spurred to create akatsuki. In this case, too, you'll have to play the unreliable narrator card to rescue the theory. The bottom line is: We don't know. 

He have been shown to be more of a reliable narrator than a unreliable one. Almost everything he has stated about Itachi, Madara and the village turned out to be true. We don't know about his rikudou sennin statements, but there are no reasons to believe he lies about him. The times he have blatantly lied, those we know are canon facts, are the times he have tried to manipulate people. When he tries to conceal the truth, he have been shown to speaks in riddles.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> Yup, the Tobito theory heavily relies on Tobi's (Obito's) trustability as a narrator. That is not all though. Tobi, as shown in the manga, have to be 2 different people as well, (Madara and Obito), unless Obito uses some sort of time travelling/dimension swapping/etc ability.


Wut. Tobi is only one person. It's impossible for him to be 2 people. And what do you mean by time travel? All of Tobi's known apearances so far have come after obito's "death".


> Tobi = Obito would also automatically render other characters as unreliable narrators. Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Kisame, Jiraya... But at a lesser extend, and it's pretty much a given.


Tobi being ANYONE would render them unreliable narrators, seeing as how they were wrong about tobi being Madara.



> And we don't know if Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, or if Yahiko was spurred to create akatsuki. In this case, too, you'll have to play the unreliable narrator card to rescue the theory. The bottom line is: We don't know.


Exactly. We don't know. So, we must speculate on what was likely to have happened.



> He have been shown to be more of a reliable narrator than a unreliable one. Almost everything he has stated about Itachi, Madara and the village turned out to be true. We don't know about his rikudou sennin statements, but there are no reasons to believe he lies about him. The times he have blatantly lied, those we know are canon facts, are the times he have tried to manipulate people. When he tries to conceal the truth, he have been shown to speaks in riddles.


But when it comes down to claiming Madara's feats as his own, most of those have been lies. He even lied about not attacking Konoha 16 years ago.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 6, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Wait what the glasses still intact? I must have missed it somewhere
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, this was my main theory - Tobi is just a clone/creation of Madara's that was supposed to carry out his orders and revive him, but might've gone rogue. It would kind of fit with the themes of the manga because Tobi's identity issues would parallel Naruto's issues at the start of the manga. 

"Am I just the nine tailed fox, or am I my own person?"
"Am I just a thing created to carry out Madara's will, or am I my own person?"

Would also explain why he's "no one", why he knows so much about Madara, why he's made of zetsu goo, and why he hates the world. 


Obito is possible too, but would take much more explaining to make sense. I have to admit that Tobi's dialogue in the last few chapters does hint that he knew Kakashi and Guy.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Wut. Tobi is only one person. It's impossible for him to be 2 people. And what do you mean by time travel? All of Tobi's known apearances so far have come after obito's "death".



If it's true Tobi gave Nagato the rinnegan, it have to have been another Tobi assuming Tobi = Obito. To escape this, you could say Obito lied or Obito can travel in time. Or Obito gave Nagato the Rinnegan as a 1-3 year old.

Edit, I meant persons not people. typo which can be misunderstood.



> Tobi being ANYONE would render them unreliable narrators, seeing as how they were wrong about tobi being Madara.



Obviously true, but Tobito would be a much more unreliable Narrator than, lets say, Izuna. You can't deny that the Tobity theory relies more on it, and that is pretty much what I'm saying. Tobito relies on non-canon lies. Other theories don't necessarily do that.



> But when it comes down to claiming Madara's feats as his own, most of those have been lies. He even lied about not attacking Konoha 16 years ago.



By the time he lied about it, it was already suggested that he did attack konoha. If you look at the panels when he lies about it, you can see Sasuke notices him flinching his fingers, implying that he lies. This is a obvious hint from Kishi that he indeed lies here.

He lied about being Madara, but he may still, for instance, have fought Hasirama. There are non-canon lies mingled in there.


----------



## Mateush (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *@Mateush:* Not sure if that was insult, but...
> 
> I don't only use imagery. I was just using it this once to get across a possible hint to Tobito!
> 
> Because in Gaiden, the boulders were falling during the day when they caved in on Obito, now they're falling at night, signifying the coming end of Obito's character...



I never meant to sound insulting. I respect most of all opinions and also I know all people think differently. I personally think that using pictures as hints is rather off, I mean for example his face. He looks like Izuna or aged Obito or more, therefore worthless to use as proof or hint. However, your idea about the boulders is interesting, so I wouldn't be suprised if Kishi did something like that.


----------



## Nic (Aug 6, 2012)

Madara gave Nagato the rin'negan.  Seems like people are still having a problem separating Madara from Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> If it's true Tobi gave Nagato the rinnegan, it have to have been another Tobi assuming Tobi = Obito. To escape this, you could say Obito lied or Obito can travel in time. Or Obito gave Nagato the Rinnegan as a 1-3 year old.


If Tobi gave Nagato the rinnegan, then Tobi's not Obito. There's only one Tobi. And I'm not "escaping" anything. Merely offering plausible explanations seeing as how Tobi posed as Madara so it would make sense to claim Madara's feats as his own.




> Obviously true, but Tobito would be a much more unreliable Narrator than, lets say, Izuna.


Just because izuna would be a more reliable narrator than obito doesn't make either more or less likely.



> You can't deny that the Tobity theory relies more on it, and that is pretty much what I'm saying. Tobito relies on non-canon lies. Other theories don't necessarily do that.


Non-canon lies? We don't know if the lies were canon or non-canon(meaning whether he was lying or not) until further elaborated upon in the manga.



> By the time he lied about it, it was already suggested that he did attack konoha. If you look at the panels when he lies about it, you can see Sasuke notices him flinching his fingers, implying that he lies. This is a obvious hint from Kishi that he indeed lies here.


Why does it matter if it was already suggested or if he gave a sign of lying? The point is he was still lying about it.



> He lied about being Madara, but he may still, for instance, have fought Hasirama. There are non-canon lies mingled in there.


How did you come to the conclusion that Tobi fought Hashirama?

And please clarify more on what you mean by "non-canon" lies.



Mateush said:


> I never meant to sound insulting. I respect most of all opinions and also I know all people think differently. I personally think that using pictures as hints is rather off, I mean for example his face. He looks like Izuna or aged Obito or more, therefore worthless to use as proof or hint. However, your idea about the boulders is interesting, so I wouldn't be suprised if Kishi did something like that.


Well, since his face is supposed to be recognizable, examining his face would be very helpful to figuring out his identity.

Tobi actually doesn't really look like Izuna.

I find that fact that the right side of his face looks scarred and just like Obito to be a major hint.

Hints can be a mixture of images and dialogue and abilities. All are equally important.


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Nic said:


> Madara gave Nagato the rin'negan.  Seems like people are still having a problem separating Madara from Tobi.


Yeah, it should be clearly obvious after Madara showed up with the Rinnegan, but yeah this forum has some incredible clever guys, guys like ''Edo Madara wasn't the one in the 6th coffin''.  

And furthermore for the people which are like why Madara chosed Obito and more like that, it seems like Madara respects childrens a lot like he reffered to Onoki ''i would never hurt a child/how could i ever hurt/kill a child'', someone like Obito especially an Uchiha which gave his eyes away to a friend (just like Izuna) could have obtain all of Madara's respect.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Maybe Madara saw Obito teleport out of the boulders. or maybe he saved him because he thought he could turn him evil and make him his apprentice.

I do however think it's possible that Obito reminded Madara of his brother. Like loool3 suggested, he could have seen Obito give his eye away. Also, Obito and Izuna share the same bloodtype and birthday. tobi also has very similar height and weight to Izuna. Izuna's height and weight couldn't have stayed the same all this time, so this is probably another Obito hint because this would make Obito even more like Izuna.

And maybe Obito and Shisui were even brothers which would explain how Obito controlled Yagura and this also fits with the brothers theme.

The evidence is piling up, guys.

Also, here's another thing I just found: "The Third Great Ninja War.... That long period of fighting ended due to the sacrifice of many nameless shinobi."

*Nameless* shinobi.

Tobi said that he was No One, in a way saying that he has no name, making him a "Nameless Shinobi". Obito was considered a nameless shinobi, and Tobi is apparently one too.



Coincidence?

And there's another line on that page too: "And at the same time, they were famous heroes... whose legends were to be passed down from generation to generation."

In other words, heroes who were passing their stories on to the future.

Now look at this: 

"This world no longer needs heroes like hope or the future!"

So, Tobi is No One(A nameless shinobi) and doesn't want to be anyone(as in a famous hero), as he thinks that there's no longer any need for people to pass things on to the future.

So yeah, the evidence for Tobi being Obito is there, but it's scattered all across the manga in different places. It's like a jigsaw puzzle. It's just a matter of finding all those pieces and fitting them together until everything makes sense.

Come at me bros!


----------



## Vash (Aug 6, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The evidence is piling up, guys.



So you making random guesses means it's evidence?


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Jak said:


> So you making random guesses means it's evidence?


The answer is clearly in front of you.


----------



## NW (Aug 6, 2012)

Jak said:


> So you making random guesses means it's evidence?


Okay, it's not evidence. It's just a possible hint that I've gathered. It's not like there isn't already shit loads of real evidence supporting Obito!


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 6, 2012)

I have 75 posts in this thread, and obitouchiha only has so many because of his double posts lol that he doe son accident.


I have Never once said its impossible to be another character. My objective has and always will be to show that its simply plausible and a possibility. That kishi can do it if he decides to. But for ignorant people who say its impossible and try to cite plot holes, it can be clear and obvious that they are uneducated and shouldn't be in the debate to begin with with such closed minds. they are convincing themselves more than anything. Its not my fault I can see so many paths and outcomes for one action to lead to another


----------



## Talis (Aug 6, 2012)

Anyways its actually pointless to discuss the same thing further and further since people stays at their place.
Hope the incandescent page will be tobi's face.


----------



## Savage (Aug 6, 2012)

It's probably some genetic test baby with Madara's genes in him.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 7, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, it's not evidence. It's just a possible hint that I've gathered. It's not like there isn't already shit loads of real evidence supporting Obito!



Seriously though, we've already had this conversation

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]

Mojo Jojo is Tobi.

Chemical X = Senju Cells.

The facts are all there, you just have to put them together until you see the picture you want to see.

Mojo Jojo is 100% Tobi, without a doubt.


----------



## Easley (Aug 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Anyways its actually pointless to discuss the same thing further and further since people stays at their place.
> Hope the incandescent page will be tobi's face.


People are just killing time until the reveal, I don't think it's possible to make new points now. This week's chapter was interesting but there's a limit to what you can discuss. 

The same arguments over and over are unlikely to change anyone's mind. hopefully, this thread is made obsolete in the next few weeks. It won't be needed. 

Color pages begin chapter 597 apparently, but "incandescent" was added by the translator.



			
				takL said:
			
		

> white hot!! (the fight) vs tobi at the crescendo, leadoff with colour pages!!


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm going with failed Madara Edo Tensai or clone experiment. 


- He has Madara's facial markings.
- he tried passing himself off as Madara.
- He refers to himself as 'no one' because he doesn't have his own identity.
- He believes bliss can only be achieved through loss of identity.

It's pretty obvious at this point.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

These Tobito believers are nice, thinking that Madara saw Obito giving away his eye.. GREAT SPECULATION!!! You got me BELIEVING it's OBITO


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 7, 2012)

Tobi is half black zetsu. His left side was black when konan almost broke tobi's mask.

Is black zetsu has only right half of his body right?


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 7, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> I'm going with failed Madara Edo Tensai or clone experiment.
> 
> 
> - He has Madara's facial markings.
> ...


I espouse this idea as well, because I currently see no reason why Obito, Izuna, or Kagami would choose to be known as "nobody". It would make sense if Tobi literally had no identity. Still, the hints that his identity and powers somehow involve Obito are becoming harder to ignore with each passing chapter. I'm always open to the possibility that Tobi is part Obito, if not Obito himself.


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 7, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> I espouse this idea as well, because I currently see no reason why Obito, Izuna, or Kagami would choose to be known as "nobody". It would make sense if Tobi literally had no identity. Still, the hints that his identity and powers somehow involve Obito are becoming harder to ignore with each passing chapter. I'm always open to the possibility that Tobi is part Obito, if not Obito himself.



ever considered he's fugaku? that friend was missing when tobi attacked the village with kyuubi


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 7, 2012)

The latest chapter makes me lean more towards the Obito theory. 

Or at least Tobi possessing his eyes seems more plausible now.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 7, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> ever considered he's fugaku? that friend was missing when tobi attacked the village with kyuubi



But we saw itachi killed him. He can't be tobi


----------



## Easley (Aug 7, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> But we saw itachi killed him. He can't be tobi


Izanagi. :amazed

Tobi = Fugaku would be a nice twist if Sasuke was there. however, he's with Orochimaru and unlikely to be at Tobi's location when the mask comes off.

So yes, I think Fugaku is dead.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 7, 2012)

Easley said:


> Izanagi. :amazed
> 
> Tobi = Fugaku would be a nice twist if Sasuke was there. however, he's with Orochimaru and unlikely to be at Tobi's location when the mask comes off.
> 
> So yes, I think Fugaku is dead.



Not to mention he was on the ground for a while.  Could be a Zetsu clone though.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 7, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> I'm going with failed Madara Edo Tensai or clone experiment.
> 
> 
> - He has Madara's facial markings.
> ...



The only problem i have is that Tobi seems to have no Uchiha facial textures on his right side.

What character does not have any wrinkle above his eye?


----------



## Xin (Aug 7, 2012)

The biggest hint is in this picture: 



If you look carefully at the first picture, you can see that Tobi has this unusual marks on the right side of his face, but you can also see (a few pics later), that he doesn't have these marks on the left side. 

I know only one person who could have this kind of face.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 7, 2012)

How could Tobi be obito?
Tobi was around during Nagato early childhood.
Nagato was at least 10 years older than Obito.
It matters not, soon everything will be revealed.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 7, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> How could Tobi be obito?
> Tobi was around during Nagato early childhood.
> Nagato was at least 10 years older than Obito.
> It matters not, soon everything will be revealed.



How do you know that Tobi was around? 

The masked man first appearance is Kyuubi attack.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

Savage said:


> It's probably some genetic test baby with Madara's genes in him.


What kind of reveal is that?



HakuGaara said:


> I'm going with failed Madara Edo Tensai or clone experiment.
> 
> 
> - He has Madara's facial markings.
> ...


-_______-



Thebaxman said:


> These Tobito believers are nice, thinking that Madara saw Obito giving away his eye.. GREAT SPECULATION!!! You got me BELIEVING it's OBITO


if you think logically, it makes sense. Unless you think Madara hated his brother, which I'm sure you're willing to believe for the sake of arguing against this theory.

It's kind of sad, really, because you support a theory that involves a 2 panel random uchiha. There's nothing to suggest he's anything more, and yet "Holy shit, he's Obito's father and the son of Madara and a secret spy!"

Really?



T-Bag said:


> ever considered he's fugaku? that friend was missing when tobi attacked the village with kyuubi


All the Uchiha were missing during the attack(the older ones at least). So, that doesn't directly point at Fugaku.

Tobi also without a doubt cannot be Fugaku because they have different eyeshapes. Eyeshape is something Kishi puts great detail into and is a defining feature of each character. So, since Tobi and Fugaku's eyeshapes are different, bye bye theory.



Escargon said:


> The only problem i have is that Tobi seems to have no Uchiha facial textures on his right side.
> 
> What character does not have any wrinkle above his eye?


Wrinkle above the eye...

You mean an eyelid?

of course he has an eyelid there. It's just the left part of his face was shaded out so we wouldn't see he has no scars.



Raventhal said:


> How do you know that Tobi was around?
> 
> The masked man first appearance is Kyuubi attack.


Because people are willing to take Tobi's words while posing as Madara as canon just for the sake of giving themselves the false pleasure of thinking they disproved a theory which they don't believe in.

I mean, I wouldn't be so pissed at these guys if they just tried to disprove the theory without making huge-ass assumptions about the words of *a known liar who used to be posing as someone else.*

Of course they'll probably ignore this and continue to use the argument even though it holds barely any weight. But unless they can prove to me that Tobi was speaking as himself when he fought Konan(and not just "Hurr durr, he was" without any proof) then I'm calling bullshit.


----------



## Talis (Aug 7, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> How could Tobi be obito?
> Tobi was around during Nagato early childhood.
> Nagato was at least 10 years older than Obito.
> It matters not, soon everything will be revealed.


Long haired masked man is the real Madara obviously, he did all the job.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Long haired masked man is the real Madara obviously, he did all the job.



You don't know if it's obvious, you think it's obvious because we all know the Tobito theory is destroyed if Long haired masked man is not Madara


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 7, 2012)

I'll be the first issue the Damage Control threads once Tobi is revealed not to be Obito. I'll savior the denial as well.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Long haired masked man is the real Madara obviously, he did all the job.




16 years ago confirmed Tobi short hair and white mask.
14-10 years ago Long Hair man with white mask appears to Kisame.
9 years ago before Uchiha Massacre Itachi observes and confronts long hair man in white mask.
Recent past Tobi appears with Orange Mask.  

Madara would have been like 90 something.



Pathos Grim said:


> I'll be the first issue the Damage Control threads once Tobi is revealed not to be Obito. I'll savior the denial as well.



Lol, you'll be far more bothered with Obito being Tobi.  You guys have venomous hate for the theory.  

I won't care if Tobi is someone else it's just a theory.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 7, 2012)

Escargon said:


> The only problem i have is that Tobi seems to have no Uchiha facial textures on his right side.
> 
> What character does not have any wrinkle above his eye?



What are you talking about?


----------



## Talis (Aug 7, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 16 years ago confirmed Tobi short hair and white mask.
> 14-10 years ago Long Hair man with white mask appears to Kisame.
> 9 years ago before Uchiha Massacre Itachi observes and confronts long hair man in white mask.
> Recent past Tobi appears with Orange Mask.
> ...


Jep, theres no reason for Tobi to have another hairstyle daily, thats why its obvious for the long haired masked man being the real Madara.


----------



## Obli (Aug 7, 2012)

Tobi = no one = no one in particular = the combined DNA of all the bodies Zetsu ate, including Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

"Anyway, if I'm that kind of trash, I'll break the rules! If that's not being a true shinobi... then I'll CRUSH that idea of a shinobi!"


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Jep, theres no reason for Tobi to have another hairstyle daily, thats why its obvious for the long haired masked man being the real Madara.



This is now my favourite post on NarutoForums

So we've narrowed it down to the point where we know ''Tobi'' was around in Nagato's childhood (long haired masked man) The theory is crushed if it actually is Tobi.

And your final defense to save the theory is that Tobi had no reason to *change his hairstyle*

I thought this theory had ''so much evidence'', yet our main point as to why Tobi can't be Obito is countered by Tobi had no reason to change his hairstyle.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 7, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Anyway, if I'm that kind of trash, I'll break the rules! If that's not being a true shinobi... then I'll CRUSH that idea of a shinobi!"



What does that have to do with Tobi? Still grasping I see...


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> What does that have to do with Tobi? Still grasping I see...



Nothing they say has anything to do with Tobi


----------



## Talis (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> This is now my favourite post on NarutoForums
> 
> So we've narrowed it down to the point where we know ''Tobi'' was around in Nagato's childhood (long haired masked man) The theory is crushed if it actually is Tobi.
> 
> ...


Says the one crying over Tobi's height lol, like theres a lot difference comparing height and hair style.
I am looking at Tobi's identity as a writers perspective while you do as a reader, you can't change the masked mans appearence 24/7 it will just mess people head, the only thing you can mess up with is his story, goals or anything.
Even if you change the appearence it should happen on paneled like Sakura's hair even.
And you must be pretty retard if you still believe in the haircut shit since tobidara's identity is invailed, Madara lived for over 100~ years *confirmed.
*Is it that stupid to believe that he lived for another 10 years?

And why are the people still crying about the hairs lol, this was exactly the reason why people suspected Minato being Naruto's dad, if you put a mask on Sakura and you have have a choice suspecting her as Ino or Sakura i bet you dumbs will be dumb enough to suspect her as Ino and cry over the hair dye. 
The long haired masked man has even a freaking bandage on his chest while theres a huge panel of Madara's death with a sword cut through his chest.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> This is now my favourite post on NarutoForums
> 
> So we've narrowed it down to the point where we know ''Tobi'' was around in Nagato's childhood (long haired masked man) The theory is crushed if it actually is Tobi.
> 
> ...



There are no panels that show the Masked Man short or long hair when Nagato was child.  Kyuubi attack Nagato was mid 20's.  Kisame was 18-22 when "Tobi" appeared to him meaning Nagato was late 20's or early 30's.  Itachi was 13 meaning Nagato was about early 30's.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> This is now my favourite post on NarutoForums
> 
> So we've narrowed it down to the point where we know ''Tobi'' was around in Nagato's childhood (long haired masked man) The theory is crushed if it actually is Tobi.
> 
> ...


 You didn't eve  get what he was trying to say.

The point is, if the long haired masked man was Tobi, why just randomly change his hairstyle and make things 100x more confusing?



HakuGaara said:


> What does that have to do with Tobi? Still grasping I see...


i never said it spcifcally did.

It just showed a possible think Madara could have used to twist Obito.



Thebaxman said:


> Nothing they say has anything to do with Tobi


the fuckin' irony.

Obito and Izuna are the only candidates that have ANYTHING to do with Tobi.

if you're going to be hypocritical, then stop debating.


----------



## Kid (Aug 7, 2012)

In the right fucking corner.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Says the one crying over Tobi's height lol, like theres a lot difference comparing height and hair style.
> I am looking at Tobi's identity as a writers perspective while you do as a reader, you can't change the masked mans appearence 24/7 it will just mess people head, the only thing you can mess up with is his story, goals or anything.
> Even if you change the appearence it should happen on paneled like Sakura's hair even.
> And you must be pretty retard if you still believe in the haircut shit since tobidara's identity is invailed, Madara lived for over 100~ years *confirmed.
> ...



I never said anything about height ONCE. What is wrong with crying about the hair if your best defense is the fact that Tobi had a different hairstyle?

And we don't know how Madara died. I guess it's just some more BS coming from a Tobito believer




Raventhal said:


> There are no panels that show the Masked Man short or long hair when Nagato was child.  Kyuubi attack Nagato was mid 20's.  Kisame was 18-22 when "Tobi" appeared to him meaning Nagato was late 20's or early 30's.  Itachi was 13 meaning Nagato was about early 30's.



Sorry If I confused you, what I was referring to is the fact that loool3 does not know that Tobi wasn't around, so he's convinced that it's Madara for the sake of the Tobito theory, and his reasoning for it being Madara was because Tobi had no need to change his hairstyle



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito and Izuna are the only candidates that have ANYTHING to do with Tobi.
> 
> if you're going to be hypocritical, then stop debating.



If Obito has something to do with Tobi why is it that you guys can never make a good post as to HOW they are related without your stupid guesses getting in the way? ''Obito was Madara's apprentice'' That's how they know each other? Yeah right this theory is 0% convincing


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 7, 2012)

In the same way Kagami being madara apprentice and collaborating with the 'dead' madara after vote in secret away from hashirama, tobirama, hiruzen, and danzos Eyes and knowledge. So convincing


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Sorry If I confused you, what I was referring to is the fact that loool3 does not know that Tobi wasn't around, so he's convinced that it's Madara for the sake of the Tobito theory, and his reasoning for it being Madara was because Tobi had no need to change his hairstyle



I'm pretty sure loool3 is the only one who believes that long haired Tobi is somehow Madara.



> If Obito has something to do with Tobi why is it that you guys can never make a good post as to HOW they are related without your stupid guesses getting in the way? ''Obito was Madara's apprentice'' That's how they know each other? Yeah right this theory is 0% convincing



We don't know anything about Tobi and Madara's relationship other than the fact that they know each other and are/were working together somehow.

Do you really expect us, or anyone for that matter, to be able to piece together the specifics with almost nothing to go on?


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I'm pretty sure loool3 is the only one who believes that long haired Tobi is somehow Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With all the claims that Obito has ''SO MUCH EVIDENCE'' you should be able to piece it together pretty easily


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> With all the claims that Obito has ''SO MUCH EVIDENCE'' you should be able to piece it together pretty easily



The evidence of Tobi being Obito doesn't really do anything to help us figure that out.


----------



## Xin (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I'm pretty sure loool3 is the only one who believes that long haired Tobi is somehow Madara.



I believe that too


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

Barely anyone thinks it's Kagami, just look at the poll.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> Barely anyone thinks it's Kagami, just look at the poll.


Oh, I know. But that post was aimed at the group of people who actually believe it.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> With all the claims that Obito has ''SO MUCH EVIDENCE'' you should be able to piece it together pretty easily



There is circumstantial evidence that colaborates to make a case that Obito is Tobi.  Just the fact nobody feels like repeating it over and over. 

And example.

Tobi's eye:  It's a Sharingan opposite of Kakashi's eye, a gift of Obito.  The eye has the similar and linked powers as Kakashi's eye.  Tobi's costume HEAVILY focus on his singilar eye, same color scheme as Obito, same hair and he first displays his Sharingan to Kakashi.  Tobi uses that eye almost exclusively despite having another Sharingan and Rinnegan.  The author has yet to show MS pattern of Tobi's right eye and the only 100% unaccounted for MS pattern is Obito's right eye. 

Evidence point to be that Tobi's right eye is Obito's right eye and that Tobi may be Obito

Tobi's Knowledge of Kakashi: Dismiss all you like the fact that Obito was always telling Kakashi to shut up and you have Tobi telling Kakashi he's always running his big mouth.  Think about if you were fighting a strange masked man to the death and he suddenly told you always are running your big mouth.  Your going to suspect it's someone who knows you.  As Kakashi said everyone he cares about(baring team 7) are dead.  He also tells Kakashi something about living with regrets.  Both comments are not in Tobi's typical mannerism. 

Evidence points to Tobi knowing Kakashi.

Plot:  Tobi is not just a mystery man like Nagato/Pain, he's a masked mystery man.  Masked men tend to be double identity characters or lost or thought dead characters.  Typically we're going to get to know the other identity of the character so we can know what were seeing when the unmasking happens or at least the characters at hand to identify the character that we know.  

Double identity character is almost impossible because all Uchiha were missing during Kyuubi attack and all other characters were present.  All other Uchiha are thought dead or had screen time with Tobi.  Thus double character is not likely.  

Lost or thought dead characters.  The Uchiha we know of that's death are unknown or questionable are Obito, Kagami, Izuna.  Shishiu's body was found, his eye was ripped in between Tobi sightings so I'm going to leave him out.  Kagami has no development to be unmasked as Tobi and it fit with typical unmaskings as fans nor characters at hand will know who he is.  Izuna falls mostly into the same problem that we nor the characters at hand would know him.   Not to mention he hasn't even been named in the manga.  Obito, fans may or may not recognize him but very observant Kakashi and Guy would.  Not to mention that Kakashi and Guy really shouldn't be able to fight in the current battle they're in.  

Evidence the only lost or thought dead Uchiha with character development an character recognition is Obito.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 7, 2012)

Now picture him with a mask. And trying to fulfill his older brothers legacy


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:
			
		

> Now picture him with a mask. And trying to fulfill his older brothers legacy


He doesn't even look like Tobi. And he'd have no reason to wear a mask since he looks so much like Madara.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He doesn't even look like Tobi. And he'd have no reason to wear a mask since he looks so much like Madara.



You know what Tobi looks like under the mask??? Tell us who it is please


----------



## theclash123 (Aug 7, 2012)

Im not sure if these have been brought up before of if im clutching at straws which i probably am but ive noticed two things that my be relevent to tobi.
The first is that his mask resembles the curse mark.
Kisame took that kick head-on (he didn't block it with Samehada or anything), yet he suffered no injuries and could continue fighting just fine.. 
The second is on the box of this naruto action figure

The symbol at the bottom resembles tobi's first mask. Maybe Naruto and Tob are somehow connected? I dont know, just thought it was interesting


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> You know what Tobi looks like under the mask??? Tell us who it is please


Obito.

Look on page 75 to see the entire top half of Tobi's face.



theclash123 said:


> Im not sure if these have been brought up before of if im clutching at straws which i probably am but ive noticed two things that my be relevent to tobi.
> The first is that his mask resembles the curse mark.
> Chapter 135.
> The second is on the box of this naruto action figure
> ...


I think the curse mark things is just coincidence. because it could also symbolize a Senju clan symbol twisted to look like the black flames of Amaterasu, symbolizing how he has both Uchiha and Senju DNA. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of.

As for the symbol on that box, well, that's the normal spiral that's associated with Naruto. (Btw, Tobi(Obito)'s Space-Time Ninjutsu is a spiral like Naruto's spiral theme. Another thing that parallels him to Naruto!)


----------



## theclash123 (Aug 7, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito.
> 
> Look on page 75 to see the entire top half of Tobi's face.
> 
> ...



ah ok makes sense. thanks for clearing that up. i got curious when i spotted them.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 7, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito.
> 
> Look on page 75 to see the entire top half of Tobi's face.



*''Alright, I mirrored Tobi's face....''* This is what *you *believe the entire top half of Tobi's face looks like, how come I never get a good answer without some speculation getting in the way?

Apparently this theory has all sorts of evidence going for it and it makes the most sense, but no matter what there is always a catch to it, what kind of theory is that?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> *''Alright, I mirrored Tobi's face....''* This is what *you *believe the entire top half of Tobi's face looks like, how come I never get a good answer without some speculation getting in the way?
> 
> Apparently this theory has all sorts of evidence going for it and it makes the most sense, but no matter what there is always a catch to it, what kind of theory is that?



YEAH! I Totally Agree, I hate it when people are able to take a panel of a picture from the manga, and compare it to another panel picture of the same manga and find a similarity. You guys, come on, get better evidence. Get stuff that is 100% so that I can guess who Tobi is before the reveal, and say haha to all of you, because it will be a fact and not a theory. Because you know, theories are always 100% XD


----------



## KingofVegetables (Aug 7, 2012)

Edward Cullen said:


> I'm thinking Tobi is Uchiha Setsuna. : O


For a minute i thought this too. Tobi kept saying things like i've waited for this ever since his battle with Minato up to the present. Setsuna means moment or instant.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> *''Alright, I mirrored Tobi's face....''* This is what *you *believe the entire top half of Tobi's face looks like,


Well, I'd assume the left side would look identical to the right...


> how come I never get a good answer without some speculation getting in the way?


Because it's a theory and not yet 100% canon?



> Apparently this theory has all sorts of evidence going for it and it makes the most sense, but no matter what there is always a catch to it, what kind of theory is that?


Again, if the theory was flawless it would be 100% canon.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> how come I never get a good answer without some speculation getting in the way?


To speculate is to hypothesize. And how do you start forming a theory? That's right: You formulate a question, gather information, and create a hypothesis.

When you are attempting to construct an educated guess, it is natural to encounter and/or rely on speculation, especially in situations where information is extremely sparse.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 7, 2012)

Thebaxman, you do realize that every "Who is Tobi" theory relies on heaps of speculation, right?


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 7, 2012)

Where's the Tobirama option


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> Where's the Tobirama option



That would fall under "Other", though that theory has as many problems with it as the Madara one does.


----------



## Shadow Slayer (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm telling you all right now. Tobi is Ralph Nader. Straight up


----------



## wibisana (Aug 7, 2012)

yeah just realized
Izuna died
according to madara


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

wibisana said:


> yeah just realized
> Izuna died
> according to madara



Yup, and apparently his eyes and their power are the only things that remain of him.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That would fall under "Other", though that theory has as many problems with it as the Madara one does.



every theory has problems, Tobirama is the most acceptable


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 7, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> every theory has problems, Tobirama is the most acceptable



How do you get around the whole "soul being sealed" thing.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 7, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> every theory has problems, Tobirama is the most acceptable



Some theories have problems. Tobirama having his soul sealed isn't a problem. It's concrete evidence that debunks Tobi=Tobirama completely.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> How do you get around the whole "soul being sealed" thing.


[See: Orochimaru]


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 7, 2012)

I don't even know why people say Izuna can be Tobi. I mean, really? Izuna shouldn't even be an option. Madara clearly said that Izuna died and all that remains is his eyes and their power.

And since Madara apparently knows Tobi, then he should recognize him as Izuna.

And they say the Kagami theory is bullshit. It's much better than the Izuna theory.


----------



## NW (Aug 7, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I don't even know why people say Izuna can be Tobi. I mean, really? Izuna shouldn't even be an option. Madara clearly said that Izuna died and all that remains is his eyes and their power.
> 
> And since Madara apparently knows Tobi, then he should recognize him as Izuna.
> 
> And they say the Kagami theory is bullshit. It's much better than the Izuna theory.


Except there's no way a one paneled character like Kagami could become an unstoppable badass like Tobi.

The brother of Uchiha Madara, however, or maybe someone like Obito with enormous potential equal to about that of Naruto... probably could.

It's still probably not Izuna, though.

But there's still a small chance...

Ah, who am I kidding? Tobi is Obito!


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 7, 2012)

^ I don't get what the point of that post was. You didn't counter any of my points.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That would fall under "Other", though that theory has as many problems with it as the Madara one does.



What problems are those?

We've already seen Tobirama revived and then sealed in the death god, so that theory is completey implausible. Not to mention the different hair color and everything.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 8, 2012)

MYJC said:


> What problems are those?
> 
> We've already seen Tobirama revived and then sealed in the death god, so that theory is completey implausible. Not to mention the different hair color and everything.



The fact that Madara canonically died and was then revived, just like Tobirama.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 8, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The fact that Madara canonically died and was then revived, just like Tobirama.



Well, yeah. I thought we were talking about the theory that he's a clone of Madara. I don't see any logical issues with that, other than that some people think it would be anticlimactic.

I can't believe anybody would still think Tobi is the actual Madara Uchiha, that was disproven the instant he was revived. That one isn't even on the poll.


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

I've noticed something!

It is a reoccurring theme in this manga for pupils to turn against their sensei and come back to kill them while originally hiding their identity from them. This happened first with Orochimaru: Hiruzen recognized "The 4th Kazekage" as Orochimaru, his former pupil.

Then with Nagato: Jiraiya recognized Pain as Nagato, his former pupil.

Now, check out this page from Tobi's fight with Minato: When Minato asked Tobi is he was uchiha Madara, Tobi removed his hood, revealing his hair and facial structure. Why?

Anyways, after that, Minato seems to have second thoughts. "No, he's long dead." I don't think he was referring to Madara there. Instead, someone else he thought was long dead.

Because, if he thought Tobi really was Madara, why ask _why_ he's doing this? Instead, Minato is confused as to why *this* person is attacking Konoha!

Now, to recognize him from his hairstyle and facial structure alone, this leads me to believe that this was someone Minato knew very well. Like, say... a former pupil of his, such as Obito?



Obito said:


> The world no longer needs heroes like Hope, or the Future...
> 
> Meanwhile:
> 
> ...


O_______O

+rep


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 8, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Well, yeah. I thought we were talking about the theory that he's a clone of Madara. I don't see any logical issues with that, other than that some people think it would be anticlimactic.
> 
> I can't believe anybody would still think Tobi is the actual Madara Uchiha, that was disproven the instant he was revived. That one isn't even on the poll.



I can't think of anything that explicitly rules it out, but Tobi and Madara don't seem to share anything that would suggests they were clones.

They have different powers, appearances, personalities, and they don't even possess the same amount of knowledge since Madara knew about Edo Tensei when Tobi didn't.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 8, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I don't even know why people say Izuna can be Tobi. I mean, really? Izuna shouldn't even be an option. Madara clearly said that Izuna died and all that remains is his eyes and their power.


He is an option because resurrection is possible in this manga, and some Izuna supporters would probably argue that Madara's words are somewhat metaphorical. 

Consider the possibility that there was an attempt to revive or clone Izuna and the process failed, which rendered him powerless and unable to recover his original powers. Madara, upon emotionally disowning this worthless shell of an Uchiha, declared to himself that nothing truly remained of Izuna but his original eyes and their power, although Izuna himself was reconstructed in the form of Tobi.

Although he had lost all sense of individuality, Izuna worked with and remained loyal to Madara. He sought replacements for his eyes, collected those he found, and used and changed them from time to time until he found Obito's remaining eye.

That's one possible string of events. There are many others.


----------



## Easley (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When Minato asked Tobi is he was uchiha Madara, Tobi removed his hood, revealing his hair and facial structure. Why?
> 
> Anyways, after that, Minato seems to have second thoughts. "No, he's long dead." I don't think he was referring to Madara there. Instead, someone else he thought was long dead.
> 
> ...


heh, you're reaching with some of these points. Minato suspected Madara because he was the most likely person after what the masked man had achieved. Being "long dead" is the problem... so he has doubts, like Jiraiya did when he realized the Kyuubi attack was a deliberate summoning. Even the frog laughed its ass off. They all rule Madara out because he died at the VotE, according to history. 

Whoever the masked guy is, he must have a lot in common with Madara - especially since they know each other somehow.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It just showed a possible think Madara could have used to twist Obito.



No, it doesn't. Obito said what he said because he believed in the importance of caring for your comrades. Tobi believes that bliss can only come through loss of identity. What the FUCK does one have to do with the other???????

And now Madara is somehow involved in Obito being Tobi?? You're just pulling all sorts of stuff out of your ass aren't you....



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito and Izuna are the only candidates that have ANYTHING to do with Tobi.



Uhh *NO*. MADARA and ZETSU are the *only* characters that have anything to do with Tobi. Obito and Izuna have absolutely *nothing* to do with Tobi.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Obito and Izuna have absolutely *nothing* to do with Tobi.


Correct, but that may change. It may be revealed soon, for instance, that Tobi's Sharingan is Obito's.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 8, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Correct, but that *may* change. It may be revealed soon, for instance, that Tobi's Sharingan is Obito's.



Theories aren't based on things that 'may' or may not even happen. Theories are based on logic and sometimes even actual evidence. Both Obito and Izuna are severely lacking in both those departments.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I've noticed something!
> 
> It is a reoccurring theme in this manga for pupils to turn against their sensei and come back to kill them while originally hiding their identity from them. This happened first with Orochimaru: Hiruzen recognized "The 4th Kazekage" as Orochimaru, his former pupil.
> 
> ...



Reading too deep.

The one detail I do find interesting about Tobi and Minato's confrontation was that Tobi referred to Minato by his name.



HakuGaara said:


> Theories aren't based on things that 'may' or may not even happen. Theories are based on logic and sometimes even actual evidence. Both Obito and Izuna are severely lacking in both those departments.



Are you really this dense or are you just in denial?

It was very strongly hinted last chapter that Tobi uses a jutsu similar or identical to Kamui. It is very possible that, at the very least, Tobi is using Obito's other eye.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Theories aren't based on things that 'may' or may not even happen. Theories are based on logic and sometimes even actual evidence. Both Obito and Izuna are severely lacking in both those departments.


You must be aware that there are different types of theories. All of the theories on Tobi's identity are epistemic rather than scientific as they are inevitably highly speculative. The degree of logic required to maintain their tenability is quite low. Any hypothesis without a logical contradiction will do. Moreover, due to the possibility of twists, Tobi's identity need not follow a congruent line of events (i.e., internal logic) at present. What matters is what makes sense to the author.

Because nothing logically precludes the possibility that a link will be formed between Tobi and Izuna or Obito, it's fine to speculate on it.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> No, it doesn't. Obito said what he said because he believed in the importance of caring for your comrades. Tobi believes that bliss can only come through loss of identity. What the FUCK does one have to do with the other???????



its called connecting the dots AKA figuring shit out without being spoon fed information

obito probably figures that all his pain and suffering is because of the shinobi world. So get rid of free will and you get rid of pain and suffering

now granted, obito's supposed death was a peaceful one but if he were to have been saved and corrupted/horrified ...he would have forgotten how he was and would create a new personality filled with hatred

common sense. Keep in mind that this is all speculation, the important thing to realize is this makes sense in explaining why obito could become tobi.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If Tobi gave Nagato the rinnegan, then Tobi's not Obito. There's only one Tobi. And I'm not "escaping" anything. Merely offering plausible explanations seeing as how Tobi posed as Madara so it would make sense to claim Madara's feats as his own.



To clearify: Tobi claims he is very old, fought Hasirama, knows alot of old stuff etc. What I mean about Tobi being 2 different persons assumes Tobi = Obito. Since Obito isn't that old you should probably figure out the rest yourself. Basically Old Tobi = Madara, New Tobi = Obito.

Sorry 'bout the confusion here.



> Just because izuna would be a more reliable narrator than obito doesn't make either more or less likely.



What I'm saying is that a more reliable narrator would make his/her claims more trustworthy.



> Non-canon lies? We don't know if the lies were canon or non-canon(meaning whether he was lying or not) until further elaborated upon in the manga.



Canon lie: Kyuubi a freak accident of Nature. Shown in manga to be a lie. Unless Kushina lied to Naruto.
Non-Canon lie: He (Obito) gave Nagato the rinnegan.



> Why does it matter if it was already suggested or if he gave a sign of lying? The point is he was still lying about it.




Actually, the example I though about was this:
This

It was not related to the Kyuubi attack... 

Because this was the only time we had an obvious contradiction. Kishi wanted the reader to know, or at least wonder about it. In the exception of him taking the glory of being Madara, there are no blatant reason to believe he lies otherwise. You have to, as I've said earlier, heavily rely on the unreliable-narrator card.



> How did you come to the conclusion that Tobi fought Hashirama?



This
Because he said so? Assuming Tobito this is also a lie, obviously.



> And please clarify more on what you mean by "non-canon" lies.



See above.


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

Easley said:


> heh, you're reaching with some of these points. Minato suspected Madara because he was the most likely person after what the masked man had achieved. Being "long dead" is the problem... so he has doubts, like Jiraiya did when he realized the Kyuubi attack was a deliberate summoning. Even the frog laughed its ass off. They all rule Madara out because he died at the VotE, according to history.
> 
> Whoever the masked guy is, he must have a lot in common with Madara - especially since they know each other somehow.


That's not xactly what i was talking about. I thought he was talking about someone else because he asked _why_ he was attacking Konoha.

If he thought he WAS Madara, the motivation should have been obvious: Revenge for the supremecy of the Senju clan in the line of power in Konoha.

But, instead, Minato became confused as to what _this_ person's motivation was.

So, maybe I AM looking to deep into it, but I just find what Minato said to be odd.



HakuGaara said:


> No, it doesn't. Obito said what he said because he believed in the importance of caring for your comrades. Tobi believes that bliss can only come through loss of identity. What the FUCK does one have to do with the other???????


I don't think you understood my post... -.-



> And now Madara is somehow involved in Obito being Tobi?? You're just pulling all sorts of stuff out of your ass aren't you....


Um, Madara's going to be involved no matter WHO Tobi is...

I'm not pulling stuff out of my ass. I'm getting from the manga. Think before you type.





> Uhh *NO*. MADARA and ZETSU are the *only* characters that have anything to do with Tobi. Obito and Izuna have absolutely *nothing* to do with Tobi.


You know this how?



HakuGaara said:


> Theories aren't based on things that 'may' or may not even happen. Theories are based on logic and sometimes even actual evidence. Both Obito and Izuna are severely lacking in both those departments.


if you fail to see the logic in both the theories, then fine. Continue being in denial.

And what you say is ironic considering Obito and Izuna are the only theories that actually have evidence at all.



jacamo said:


> boy this thread moves quick
> 
> obligatory Obito plotholes plug..... referenced in sig below


I suggest we all ignore jacamo from now on. He doesn't offer any logical or rational points. He just recites the same useless shit over and over again even though we've already offered explanations.



gjoerulv said:


> To clearify: Tobi claims he is very old, fought Hasirama, knows alot of old stuff etc. What I mean about Tobi being 2 different persons assumes Tobi = Obito. Since Obito isn't that old you should probably figure out the rest yourself. Basically Old Tobi = Madara, New Tobi = Obito.


You're only deriving his claims of being very old from his claims of being Madara, which we know he is not. And no. There is only one Tobi.

If Tobi's claims of giving Nagato the Rinnegan are true, he's not Obito. If they aren't, that means Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan and not Tobi. Just because Madara does something Tobi claimed to have done, doesn't mean he's tobi. it just means that tobi claimed something that Madara did.



> What I'm saying is that a more reliable narrator would make his/her claims more trustworthy.


Yes, but do we have any prof that he is a reliable narrator? No.In fact, there is proof that he is an unreliably narrator. Just because his claims would be more trustworthy if he was Izuna doesn't mean they are.





> Canon lie: Kyuubi a freak accident of Nature. Shown in manga to be a lie.


yes.



> Unless Kushina lied to Naruto.


No. That's impossible since we saw a flashback of it.



> Non-Canon lie: He (Obito) gave Nagato the rinnegan.


We don't know if he was lying or not, so therefore it is currently neither canon OR non-canon.



> Because this was the only time we had an obvious contradiction. Kishi wanted the reader to know, or at least wonder about it.


he still lied about it though. So he's still an unreliable narrator. 



> In the exception of him taking the glory of being Madara, there are no blatant reason to believe he lies otherwise.


Thee's the fact that he was posing as Madara, and he seems sane enough to know that if you're posing as someone, you should claim that person's feats as your own in order to be convincing. 



> You have to, as I've said earlier, heavily rely on the unreliable-narrator card.


Problem?





> Page 1
> Because he said so? Assuming Tobito this is also a lie, obviously.


Because Tobi saying "Madara grew this from tissue he stole during their battle" wouldn't give away the Edo Madara twist.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 8, 2012)

lol... imo Obito has plotholes

whats wrong with that?


----------



## Talis (Aug 8, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol... imo Obito has plotholes
> 
> whats wrong with that?


Even the mod isn't interested in ur sign.


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

> lol... *imo* Obito has plotholes
> 
> whats wrong with that?


IN YOUR OPINION. Well, guess what, bud, your opinion isn't all correct and above everyone else's. if you can't accept a possibility, then get off and stop debating.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 8, 2012)

plenty of people share my opinion as well


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> plenty of people share my opinion as well


So? Just because many people share that opinion doesn't change the fact that it's flawed thinking, Well, I could understand other people who haven't seen the explanations, but you've seen them and just won't accept them for reasons still unexplained. You don't have to like the Tobito theory, but you should at least be rational and accept a possibility.

I'm not a big fan of the Izuna theory but I still accept that it's possible.

You don't see me coming up with bullshit "holes" for the izuna theory and denying everyone's explanations.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't support any theory, but average reader or average watcher of the Anime who doesn't come to forums or reads databook won't recognize Kagami and will just be like: "Who is this?" Kishi expects readers to be shocked with the revelation, he probably won't use a guy who only had 1-2 panels dedicated to him.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 8, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Any hypothesis without a logical contradiction will do.
> 
> Because nothing logically precludes the possibility that a link will be formed between Tobi and Izuna or Obito, it's fine to speculate on it.



Using that logic, I can 'speculate' that Konohamaru will teleport in the middle of the battle and turn all the bad guys into ponies. The END.  

There's no logical contradiction and nothing logically precludes a link being formed between Konohamaru and a newly developed pony transformation technique, so my theory must be just as sound and valid as Tobi = random character, right?



son_michael said:


> obito probably figures that all his pain and suffering is because of the shinobi world. So get rid of free will and you get rid of pain and suffering



*All* his pain and suffering??? He led a fairly normal life and then died as a kid, so what do you mean by *all* his pain and suffering???



son_michael said:


> now granted, obito's supposed death was a peaceful one but if he were to have been saved and corrupted/horrified ...he would have forgotten how he was and would create a new personality filled with hatred



That can apply to *ANY* character. You're just choosing Obito because you want it to be Obito.



son_michael said:


> common sense. Keep in mind that this is all speculation,



Lol, all I see is speculation and no common sense.



son_michael said:


> the important thing to realize is this makes sense in explaining why obito could become tobi.



It doesn't make sense because it doesn't explain *anything*. It doesn't explain how he survived, why someone would choose a dead and weak person to corrupt... Nothing about Tobito makes sense at all.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't think you understood my post..



*No one* understood your post, including *you*.


----------



## Talis (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Using that logic, I can 'speculate' that Konohamaru will teleport in the middle of the battle and turn all the bad guys into ponies. The END.


The proof is in Kakashis fqing eye, you must be really a fool to deny it since after the last chapter.
You know how long people already said that Tobi's and Kakashis eye technique were the same?
Like a few years ago, do you know how long people said that Tobi wasn't Madara?
Since the start, everything is gettign revealed slowly.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 8, 2012)

Having Tobi as Madara would be dumb. Madara was shown in the six coffin, building so much expectation for Tobi's identity and then Kishi revealing him as Madara would be just ...


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The proof is in Kakashis fqing eye, you must be really a fool to deny it since after the last chapter.



Tobi is a collector of sharingans and up to speed on all Uchiha lore, so stopping kamui could be explained by anything really, including snatching Obito's remaining eye. It hardly proves that Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Easley (Aug 8, 2012)

Tobi was a goofy idiot when introduced, begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki... but he's supposed to be the mastermind? umm, Kishi either changed the story or Zetsu wasn't in the loop, which really fucks up their relationship.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So? Just because many people share that opinion doesn't change the fact that it's flawed thinking, Well, I could understand other people who haven't seen the explanations, but you've seen them and just won't accept them for reasons still unexplained. You don't have to like the Tobito theory, but you should at least be rational and accept a possibility.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the Izuna theory but I still accept that it's possible.
> 
> You don't see me coming up with bullshit "holes" for the izuna theory and denying everyone's explanations.



i have presented plothole after plothole, manga panel after manga panel as evidence... its *you *who is being irrational and wont accept them 

so why should i accept the possibility of Obito when i have plotholes that prove otherwise? when all you have are hints?

Obito is around 10 years *younger *than Nagato so how could he have given him the Rinnegan? how could he have taken control of Kirigakure when he was still in diapers? HE COULDNT HAVE... Tobi is NOT Obito

plothole

and NO, he wasnt lying to Konan... Konan was near death, Tobi had no reason to lie to her, so it was Tobi who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara

but ok, seeing as i know you are in denial over this... let me ask you, how THE HELL does Tobi know about Aburame Torune's FATHER and his jutsu but not about Torune himself? whats that all about? Tobi is simply TOO OLD to be Obito, he is from an older generation altogether

plothole



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't think you understood my post..





HakuGaara said:


> *No one* understood your post, including *you*.



 



loool3 said:


> Like a few years ago, do you know how long people said that Tobi wasn't Madara?



of course i do... i called that 2 years before it happened


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 8, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi was a goofy idiot when introduced, begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki... but he's supposed to be the mastermind? umm, Kishi either changed the story or Zetsu wasn't in the loop, which really fucks up their relationship.


Kishi didn't plan for Tobi to be so important.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 8, 2012)

> i have presented plothole after plothole, manga panel after manga panel as evidence... its you who is being irrational and wont accept them



We get your opinion we just don't agree.  We've refuted your opinion with our own opinions and you ignore those.  Yet you push these plot holes which are more opinions than plot holes as the 10 Commandments slated in stone by god.  

The fact Obito has cloudiness to the theory yet lots of evidence should tell you something in putting your faith in a theory with no plot for or against it.  If Tobi was never meant to be an easy pick you want.  Without doubts of who Tobi is he would have been unmasked to the audience even if the cast didn't know.  Any theory that's going to be Tobi will have doubts some how because Tobi is a mystery masked character.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> Kishi didn't plan for Tobi to be so important.



I can agree with that.  His introduction was dumb and his plot is pretty dumb when you think about it.  Tobi went inception on identities down to the 4th level.


----------



## Easley (Aug 8, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Kishi didn't plan for Tobi to be so important.


Tobi went from nobody to mastermind in a single chapter. A masked guy is very convenient if you change your mind. I like twists where a weak person is actually strong but Tobi asking Zetsu to enter Akatsuki is not convincing. Was it just to fool the readers? Kishi will probably avoid that point entirely.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 8, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi went from nobody to mastermind in a single chapter. A masked guy is very convenient if you change your mind. I like twists where a weak person is actually strong but Tobi asking Zetsu to enter Akatsuki is not convincing. Was it just to fool the readers? Kishi will probably avoid that point entirely.



Yeah I kind of hope he'll address that in some way but I think he'll mostly just pretend that whole "silly Tobi" phase never happened.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 8, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi went from nobody to mastermind in a single chapter. A masked guy is very convenient if you change your mind. I like twists where a weak person is actually strong but Tobi asking Zetsu to enter Akatsuki is not convincing. Was it just to fool the readers? Kishi will probably avoid that point entirely.


 I think Kishi said somewhere that he didn't intend Tobi to be anyone important, just a regular character. He definitely wasn't suppose to be an elite Uchiha lol.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 8, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Having Tobi as Madara would be dumb. Madara was shown in the six coffin, building so much expectation for Tobi's identity and then Kishi revealing him as Madara would be just ...



As anti-climatic as it is, the evidence is pointing toward Tobi being a failed Edo Tensai or clone of Madara. The list of clues:

- Tobi shares the same facial markings as Madara
- People thought of him as Madara even before he said anything to them.
- They both planned to be restored by Nagato.
- Tobi's reaction to the sixth coffin as opposed to the other coffins.
- Tobi saying 'Fighting you here will only weaken myself' when faced with the sixth coffin.
- Tobi having an encyclopedic lore of the Uchiha just like Madara would have.
- They both have similar goals (acquisitions of the Kyuubi and rinnegan and Nagato using his technique on them)
- Tobi knowing who Orochimaru is even though Madara shouldn't.
- Tobi referring to himself and 'no one' and believing that peace comes through loss of identity. Both of these would come from the fact that he never had his own identity.
- Tobi being short for Tobirama, the creator of Edo Tensai. He was given that name because he had no name of his own.
- Madara saying 'Do you know *our* plan as well? (meaning his and Tobi's)' and Kabuto replying 'not in detail, but I'm on *your* side', meaning Tobi and Madara have the same plan but Kabuto was siding only with Madara.

Why did the Edo Tensai fail? It goes back to when Kabuto said this: 'I think I'm right that after your battle with the Shodai Hokage at the Valley of the End....you didn't die, did you?' In other words, they tried to revive Madara when they 'thought' he died but failed because he wasn't dead yet. Madara didn't die until sometime after that point. This explains why Tobi looks like Madara and has autonomy but doesn't have his exact abilities or his personality. He probably only got a piece of Madara's soul because he was near death but not fully dead.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> As anti-climatic as it is, the evidence is pointing toward Tobi being a failed Edo Tensai or clone of Madara. The list of clues:
> 
> - Tobi shares the same facial markings as Madara
> - People thought of him as Madara even before he said anything to them.
> ...



-Actually no. His right side has those scar-thingies and his left doesn't. He really looks more like Obito than Madara. I even used a picture of Obito from the Manga getting mad and Tobi's photo getting mad.I compared they're eyes and it's almost identical.

-That's because he was really powerful and had unusual powers.

-Agree on this

-He reacted that way because he saw Madara. All these years he went as Madara and he knew all will be ruined if Edo Madara goes out now. Plus Madara is powerful, and Tobi broke the promise of bringing him back with Rinne Tensei, possibly getting him into thinking Madara might ruin his plans.

-Well yea, because he was suppose to go against the strongest ninja in history.

-Not a problem if you can read it of Uchiha tablet, and he was friends with Madara, he may as well tell him everything.

-It has yet to be revealed why does Tobi wants such thing.

-He reffered to himself as no-one because he is trying to keep his identity a secret, he can't just tell everyone who he is.

-Or an anagram of something else

-As i said, they knew each other, they worked together.

Who knows why Edo Tensei failed, Kishi has yet to give us a reasoning. I don't support any theory, but him being Madara won't leave people in "WHAT" sort of reaction.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 8, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So? Just because many people share that opinion doesn't change the fact that it's flawed thinking, Well, I could understand other people who haven't seen the explanations, but you've seen them and just won't accept them for reasons still unexplained. You don't have to like the Tobito theory, but you should at least be rational and accept a possibility.


He never said it wasn't a possibility. He said it has plot holes. You are being hypocritical, claiming his reservations against Tobito is "flawed thinking".

Many Tobito theorists are walking around calling anyone who doesn't share their vision of Tobito delusional, claiming Tobito has already been proven and yaddi yaddi yadda. *You* are doing the same to an extent.

*Jacamo* isn't saying Tobito can't possibly ever be real, merely that the theory is too full of plot holes, in his opinion, to be real. The possibility still exists, though. You declaring his thinking "flawed thinking" is the same thing as saying "I'm right and you are wrong. Tobito is real and you're stupid for doubting it".

I'll say this: No matter who Tobi is, I expect a full and logical explanation for his existence, goals and personality. Whether he's Izuna, Obito, Kagami or whoever, if Kishimoto gives us a bullshit explanation, it's still bad writing and Tobi might as well just be a new character for all I care.

"I lied about everything" is not a valid excuse.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 8, 2012)

Yuna said:


> *Jacamo* isn't saying Tobito can't possibly ever be real, merely that the theory is too full of plot holes, in his opinion, to be real. The possibility still exists, though. You declaring his thinking "flawed thinking" is the same thing as saying "I'm right and you are wrong. Tobito is real and you're stupid for doubting it".
> .



Actually, that's exactly what Jacamo
Has been saying, you must be new to This thread .
Go back and look. I'm the open minded person but he is the one saying its inpossible. Go back and look at thread around 55 to now


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 8, 2012)

Yuna said:


> He never said it wasn't a possibility. He said it has plot holes. You are being hypocritical, claiming his reservations against Tobito is "flawed thinking".
> 
> Many Tobito theorists are walking around calling anyone who doesn't share their vision of Tobito delusional, claiming Tobito has already been proven and yaddi yaddi yadda. *You* are doing the same to an extent.
> 
> ...



The question isn't if Tobi was lying.  It's what and when he was lying.  His whole character is a lie.  The goofy guy, then Madara.  He's known to lie wtih sprinks of truth.  That's the authors fault for doing that.  

No a lot of people call Obito theorist delusional or worst.  Again any character worth while of being Tobi is going to have cloudy issues to make your not sure if it's him because he's a masked mystery man.  If you could obviously pick out who Tobi was it wouldn't be a mystery would it?  

The problem with Jacamo is that he post the same thing over and over despite what anyone responds to it.  His plot holes have been broken down to opinions of events because there's a lot of unknown stuff going on with the Madara/Tobi/Nagato story and I refuse to just 100% believe what Tobi says.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 8, 2012)

I was thinking about the eye wall earlier and where did Tobi got those many eyes. They can't be from the Uchiha massacre. Surelly someone would have mentioned the gruesome mutillation those corpses had, if they came from that moment. So I theorised that Madara for some reason would have come into knowledge about Izanagi / Izanami and that he needed more eyes that the ones he currently had, to keep using that technique ad nauseum without much consequence in the long run. As such Madara could have been scouting the Leaf's outskirts for Uchihas coming out on missions, planning to take over their eyes like the bitch that he is. Whether he'd force Uchihas into impossible situations or not isn't important. This scenario however, would explain why Madara found Obito in that cave, outside of very convenient plot. We know Zetsu has tracking skills and is literally one with nature. He'd be the perfect sensor to catch the Uchihas wherever they may be, and retrieve them for Madara. Then again Kishi might go the lazy route and make a Suigetsu / Jugo find Orochimaru's scroll by PnJ again.

Another thing somewhat related to this. Notice that Madara survived VotE in some way, although people tought he was dead. Izanagi might have been the way. It would explain Madara's one eyed mask too. Furthermore, it would go well with what I described above, he sacrified an eye to escape but he needed one to replace it, so he scouted the land along with Zetsu for it but found an accomplice instead (Obito). Maybe he felt lonely. Zetsu is only a glorified pot plant after all. 

Furthermore, the Rinnegan isn't as easy to obtain as to mix Senju and Uchiha DNA. There's some more non obvious shenaningans there, otherwise Danzo's arm would have Rinnegans instead of Sharingans, and Tobi's right eye would be a Sharingan instead of a Rinnegan (and for those who assume Senju = Uzumaki without any difference, then Sasuke would have Rinnegan at this point as well). I've theorised that Madara would have given his (not Izuna's) eyes to Nagato, but he might have left and/or some conditions for it to morph (it isn't as simple as you'd expect). Perhaps it was just an experiment that he couldn't reproduce the results again. This would account for Madara's death being when he's much older. He'd achieve the Rinnegan years, decades later he'd "give" them to Nagato, perhaps he'd spend his whole life finding for the right fit and Nagato had been a lucky strike. It would explain the Kizame's flashback quite well, since if we assume the masked man was Madara due to the long hair, then we must accept he did not have the Rinnegan back then, since he showed the _Sharingan_ to Kizame. So he would have achieved the Rinnegan after that, perhaps about the time of the Uchiha massacre so he can assist Itachi and then died 'shortly after', leaving Tobito all alone.

It's also interesting to note the masked man with long hair never refered to himself as Tobi, but always as Madara. The masked man with short hair, refers to himself both as Tobi and as Madara.

All in all, a productive afternoon. 

Is there any contradiction in these theories that I'm not aware of?

BTW, one more notch in the height inconsistencies argument:



This doesn't look like 179.2 cm VS 154.2 cm at all. Furthermore, it contradicts this . Kishimoto doesn't care about height. End of story.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 8, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Using that logic, I can 'speculate' that Konohamaru will teleport in the middle of the battle and turn all the bad guys into ponies. The END.
> 
> There's no logical contradiction and nothing logically precludes a link being formed between Konohamaru and a newly developed pony transformation technique, so my theory must be just as sound and valid as Tobi = random character, right?


Strictly speaking, yes. But I'm sure you've heard of context. Under the context of Tobi's identity, you are forced to speculate. You do know that every theory on Tobi's identity stands on mountains of speculation, don't you? 

What makes Tobi theories worth talking about is the existence of circumstantial evidence that may support them. The possibility that Tobi has Obito's eye is supported by the observation that his S-T techniques share some similarities with Kamui. The possibility that Konohamaru has a pony transformation technique, on the other hand, is not supported by any evidence. Even though it's possible, it's not even worth mentioning.


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

I had a Tobito dream last night!

Apparently, when Obito gave Kakashi his eye he also gave him a necklace of his that glows green when it comes into contact with him(Obito).

So, we shift back to the fight and Kakashi randomly pulls out the necklace and starts trying to strangle Tobi with it! Then it glows green and Kakashi starts flippin' out!



HakuGaara said:


> - Tobi shares the same facial markings as Madara


So Ohnoki and A are Madara too?! O.O But seriously, Tobi's facial marking connects and goes up his nose line, unlike Madara's. It looks more like a scar from a rock.


> - People thought of him as Madara even before he said anything to them.


Only because he'd done things only Madara was known to do.


> - They both planned to be restored by Nagato.


Um, no.


> - Tobi's reaction to the sixth coffin as opposed to the other coffins.


yes, because he found out that Kabuto knew he wasn't Madara. -_-'


> - Tobi saying 'Fighting you here will only weaken myself' when faced with the sixth coffin.


he meant his forces n battle for the war.


> - Tobi having an encyclopedic lore of the Uchiha just like Madara would have.


Or he merely learned it from Madara. It's not that hard. We, the audience, learned it in a few chapters, and so did Sasuke.


> - They both have similar goals (acquisitions of the Kyuubi and rinnegan and Nagato using his technique on them)


We don't know why tobi wants to do this, though.


> - Tobi knowing who Orochimaru is even though Madara shouldn't.


And why shouldn't he?


> - Tobi referring to himself and 'no one' and believing that peace comes through loss of identity. Both of these would come from the fact that he never had his own identity.


We still don't know why he thinks like that, though.


> - Tobi being short for Tobirama, the creator of Edo Tensai. He was given that name because he had no name of his own.


No. This is wrong. The japanese characters for Tobi and Tobirama are different, so if he shortened the name he'd end up getting "Tobira".


> - Madara saying 'Do you know *our* plan as well? (meaning his and Tobi's)' and Kabuto replying 'not in detail, but I'm on *your* side', meaning Tobi and Madara have the same plan but Kabuto was siding only with Madara.


What does this prove?



> Why did the Edo Tensai fail? It goes back to when Kabuto said this: 'I think I'm right that after your battle with the Shodai Hokage at the Valley of the End....you didn't die, did you?' In other words, they tried to revive Madara when they 'thought' he died but failed because he wasn't dead yet. Madara didn't die until sometime after that point. This explains why Tobi looks like Madara and has autonomy but doesn't have his exact abilities or his personality. He probably only got a piece of Madara's soul because he was near death but not fully dead.


 No! You can't Edo Tensei someone without the person being dead. They HAVE to be dead. That's a plothole. It actually is since it contradicts the established logic of the manga.

Seriously, this is so hypocritical. People say it can't be Obito and then they come out with something like Fugaku or Madara clone...


----------



## SaskeKun (Aug 8, 2012)

Tobi is Minato.
Minato dyed his hair black and cut it. He wanted to change his lovely style to a darker one and thus, to prepare himself as a villain.
The Tobi fighting him back then was just an amateur, but it was thanks to him that he came up with the idea of the Moon Eye plan. He realized that being a villain is much more fun than being a crappy village's hero.
Minato in fact never died. Kishi trolled us.
Furthermore, the Minato that Naruto met was just a hologram to deceive him and all of us.

Perfect theory :ho


----------



## SaskeKun (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm being serious mate


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 8, 2012)

SaskeKun said:


> Tobi is Minato.
> Minato dyed his hair black and cut it. He wanted to change his lovely style to a darker one and thus, to prepare himself as a villain.
> The Tobi fighting him back then was just an amateur, but it was thanks to him that he came up with the idea of the Moon Eye plan. He realized that being a villain is much more fun than being a crappy village's hero.
> Minato in fact never died. Kishi trolled us.
> ...



I lol'd.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So? Just because many people share that opinion doesn't change the fact that it's flawed thinking, Well, I could understand other people who haven't seen the explanations, but you've seen them and just won't accept them for reasons still unexplained. You don't have to like the Tobito theory, but you should at least be rational and accept a possibility.



Whoa, whoa, whoa, *WHOA *there. You do realize what you said, right?
"You don't have to like the Tobito theory, but you should at least be rational and accept a possibility"

^ That's what you need to do. Honestly, from the day you registered on this forum and started debating here, you've been the most irrational and hypocritical. *YOU* are the one who needs to stop being a hypocrite and start being rational. You tell other people to accept a possibility when you're the one who can't. You want *everyone* in this thread to accept the Tobito theory as a possibility even if they don't like it. But yet you don't accept anything. You call others a hypocrite when you're the one who's hypocritical. Do you even know what the word means? The only theory you can ever accept is the Izuna theory. And that theory is complete bullshit and is very flawed. Plus, it makes no sense. Look, if you don't like the Kagami theory, then why can't you at least accept it as a possibility? Because it doesn't make sense? a 2 panel fodder character can't be Tobi? That's not Kishimoto's writing style? Fuck that.

That's exactly what people think about your Tobito theory. They don't accept because it doesn't make any sense. You try so hard to convince them into accepting it as a possibility but yet you can't even accept something yourself? Wow.

Look, I hate the Tobito theory, but I can accept it. I've stated in several threads that the Tobito theory doesn't make any sense but I never said I don't accept it.

Seriously, stop with this stuff. You should really take your own advice. I'm sorry if I sounded somewhat rude, but this was the best way I could say it.

I don't hate or have a personal grudge on you in any way. I just stated what I've been thinking about for so long. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> IN YOUR OPINION. Well, guess what, bud, your opinion isn't all correct and above everyone else's. if you can't accept a possibility, then get off and stop debating.



You should really stop acting like a boss here. You're not the admin of this forum or thread. So stop telling others to get off. This isn't your territory.


----------



## NW (Aug 8, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I lol'd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry if I sound bossy. I didn't mean to be, lol.

Okay, if people don't want to accept Tobito as a possibility, then fine, But I won't accept Kagami as a possiblity because I don't see any evidence _why_ it's a possibility. The theory has no merit. There's nothing to suggest he's Tobi. And you're saying that not being Kishi's writing style isn't a problem? Um, it's the way he WRITES, so yeah. Unless someone can show me any evidence as to why Kagami is a possibility, then I won't accept it as one. If they do, then I will. Simple. Until then I'll assume that Kagami is like saying any random person you see is Tobi. Why should I accept something as possible when there's nothing to suggest it is? I'm not bashing it for the hell of it, this is how I feel about the theory.

And izuna is bullshit? How so? Just cuz Madara said he was dead? There's alot of evidence to point to him so that issue could be overcome. i still have doubts that it's izuna though.

Again, I apologize if i sounded bossy or hypocritical in that post, but that jacamo guy is really annoying.


----------



## Del Ruiz (Aug 8, 2012)

It's probably Obito, or at least part Obito anyways

It's kind of like Minato turning out to be Naruto's dad. It's kept a secret for forever and then reveals it with a big "WHO KNEW!?" when really we all knew, for quite awhile.


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 9, 2012)

Tobi is a robot/android


----------



## jacamo (Aug 9, 2012)

LOL... by "evidence" ObitoUchiha111 means circumstantial evidence, which are essentially just hints... in case anyone was confused

there are plenty of hints for the Kagami theory... you know, just like the Obito theory has hints... no one can claim the Obito hints are better than Kagami hints, and if you want to say the Kagami hints are BS then so are Obito's



1) how can Kagami have ties to Senju Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders Koharu and Homura and NOT be involved somehow?

2) is it a coincidence that Tobi can be derived from his sensei's name *Tobi*rama? i dont know, but its a hint

3) Tobi is a master of (S/T) Jikukan Ido... is it a coincidence that Tobirama is also said to be a master at Jikukan Ido? i dont know, but its a hint

4) Kagami was introduced at a crucial time - Danzo's death 

5) the Elders Koharu/Homura still have a role to play and Kagami knows them

6) Kagami's timeline fits prefectly as far as: giving Nagato the Rinnegan; creating Akatsuki; taking control over Kirigakure; knowing Madara and Hashirama personally (Madara said he knows who Tobi is... Tobi also said he fought Hashirama to Kabuto when there was no reason to keep up the act)

7) Tobi has knowledge that only someone as old as Kagami would have... such as Aburame Shikuro's jutsu, how to extract the Kyubi from its host, the workings of the Senju-Uchiha feud *pre-Konoha*, and how to bypass Konoha's security system undetected


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

SaskeKun said:


> Tobi is Minato.
> Minato dyed his hair black and cut it. He wanted to change his lovely style to a darker one and thus, to prepare himself as a villain.
> The Tobi fighting him back then was just an amateur, but it was thanks to him that he came up with the idea of the Moon Eye plan. He realized that being a villain is much more fun than being a crappy village's hero.
> Minato in fact never died. Kishi trolled us.
> ...



Must explain why they both are made of the same materials.

And who says Minato needs to dry his hair black? He just need some DNA i guess.




ensoriki said:


> Tobi is a robot/android



A Zetsu clone you mean:0


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 9, 2012)

jacamo said:


> 1) how can Kagami have ties to Senju Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders Koharu and Homura and NOT be involved somehow?



This is like a "prove me wrong" response.

It's not on us to prove the lack of a connection. It's on you to prove such a connection exists.



> 2) is it a coincidence that Tobi can be derived from his sensei's name *Tobi*rama? i dont know, but its a hint



They are spelled in completely different ways.



> 3) Tobi is a master of (S/T) Jikukan Ido... is it a coincidence that Tobirama is also said to be a master at Jikukan Ido? i dont know, but its a hint



Is it a coincidence that Obito's eyes contain S/T jutsu?



> 4) Kagami was introduced at a crucial time - Danzo's death



You mean that's the only time he's ever been featured.



> 5) the Elders Koharu/Homura still have a role to play and Kagami knows them



Are you sure about the former?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 9, 2012)

its not a "prove me wrong" response 

they are all legitimate Kagami hints

nothing more


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> -Actually no. His right side has those scar-thingies and his left doesn't. He really looks more like Obito than Madara. I even used a picture of Obito from the Manga getting mad and Tobi's photo getting mad.I compared they're eyes and it's almost identical.



Scars aren't evenly perpendicular like the ones you see on Tobi.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -That's because he was really powerful and had unusual powers.



Aside from summoning Kyuubi, he hasn't displayed any of Madara's abilities and yet people still thought it was him. Also, there are lots of other dead characters who are really powerful and had unusual abilities, so this point is invalid.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -He reacted that way because he saw Madara. All these years he went as Madara and he knew all will be ruined if Edo Madara goes out now. Plus Madara is powerful, and Tobi broke the promise of bringing him back with Rinne Tensei, possibly getting him into thinking Madara might ruin his plans.



There's been no logical explanation as to why he called himself Madara. In fact he doesn't really seem to care if people think he's Madara or not. The reason he reacted that way is because he is intrinsically linked to Madara.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -Well yea, because he was suppose to go against the strongest ninja in history.



Oh but Nagato, Itachi, Sasori, Kakuzu and Deidara combined is no sweat? . Don't forget we're talking about someone that almost lost to Konan.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -Not a problem if you can read it of Uchiha tablet, and he was friends with Madara, he may as well tell him everything.



Friends with Madara? Where does it say Tobi is friends with Madara?



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -It has yet to be revealed why does Tobi wants such thing.



Which doesn't change the fact that it's similar to Madara's wants.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -He reffered to himself as no-one because he is trying to keep his identity a secret, he can't just tell everyone who he is.



Except there is no reason for him to keep hiding at this point in the story. The only reason he has to keep his face hidden is because it looks too much like Madara's and he's not Madara so it bothers him.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -Or an anagram of something else



Well it's not an anagram for Obito because it doesn't have enough Os.  



Kazekage Gaara said:


> -As i said, they knew each other, they worked together.



Knew *of* each other, yes. Worked together? No. It's obvious that Madara is against Tobi so why are you stating that they are friends and worked together like it's a fact???



Kazekage Gaara said:


> but him being Madara won't leave people in "WHAT" sort of reaction.



Neither will him being Obito since everyone has already jumped onto that bandwagon.



TH4N4T0S said:


> Under the context of Tobi's identity, you are forced to speculate. You do know that every theory on Tobi's identity stands on mountains of speculation, don't you?



Yes, but some speculation is more logically sound than others.



TH4N4T0S said:


> The possibility that Tobi has Obito's eye is supported by the observation that his S-T techniques share some similarities with Kamui.



Yes, Tobi having Obito's eye is supported. Tobi *being* Obito on the other hand, is not supported at all and is illogical.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I had a Tobito dream last night!



Don't forget to change the sheets.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So Ohnoki and A are Madara too?! O.O



Are Onoki and A wearing masks and have been mistaken for Madara? 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It looks more like a scar from a rock.



Scars are jagged, not even and perpendicular to each other.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Only because he'd done things only Madara was known to do.



Things? The only thing he did that Madara was known for was summoning Kyuubi. He hasn't displayed any of Madara's other abilities yet people still think he's Madara.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Um, no.



Tobi:

Madara:

Yes. Deal with it.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> yes, because he found out that Kabuto knew he wasn't Madara. -_-'



No, Tobi's reaction was specifically toward the coffin. I believe his words were "Where did you get that?!?!?"



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> he meant his forces n battle for the war.



Because he was going to fill that little cave with Zetsus? Not that the Zetsus have the ability to seal Edo Tensai *anyway*. He was clearly referring to something else.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We don't know why tobi wants to do this, though.



Which doesn't change the fact that they're the same.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And why shouldn't he?



I'm not saying he shouldn't. In fact it makes sense that he does since it was most likely him that did the Edo experiment.




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We still don't know why he thinks like that, though.



Him being a failed Edo would explain why he thinks that. Because he wouldn't have his own identity. Aren't you paying attention?




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. This is wrong. The japanese characters for Tobi and Tobirama are different, so if he shortened the name he'd end up getting "Tobira".



LOL, uh no. 'rama' is similar to 'maru' in that it is just an extension of the person's name, Much like Robert is an extension of Rob. This is why Tobirama and Hashirama have similar names, because they're brothers. take out the extension and you get Tobi and Hashi.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What does this prove?



It proves that Tobi and Madara are more similar than Tobi and Obito.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No! You can't Edo Tensei someone without the person being dead. They HAVE to be dead.



DUH. That's why it *failed*. Are you even paying attention are you just slow on the uptake?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's a plothole.



No, it would be a plot-hole if the Edo Tensai *worked*.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Seriously, this is so hypocritical. People say it can't be Obito and then they come out with something like Fugaku or Madara clone...



Todara has the most connections and circumstantial evidence out of all the theories.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 9, 2012)

If Tobi's a Madara clone then why do they not share powers, personalities, appearance, or knowledge (Edo Tensei)?

And we've seen what happens when Edo Tensei fails, it doesn't produce anything.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 9, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If Tobi's a Madara clone then why do they not share powers, personalities, appearance, or knowledge (Edo Tensei)?



Because the Edo Tensai failed. You can't Edo someone who is still alive.



First Tsurugi said:


> And we've seen what happens when Edo Tensei fails, it doesn't produce anything.



Actually, no, we haven't. Please show otherwise.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 9, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Actually, no, we haven't. Please show otherwise.



When Orochimaru attempted to summon Minato.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 9, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> When Orochimaru attempted to summon Minato.



That was because Minato was *sealed*, not because he was still 'alive'.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 9, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> That was because Minato was *sealed*, not because he was still 'alive'.



I see no reason to think the result would be different.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 9, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> That was because Minato was *sealed*, not because he was still 'alive'.



Still curious as to how the plot shows otherwise. Whatever "otherwise" means.


----------



## gus3 (Aug 9, 2012)

He's either Obito or at least someone in procession of his eye. The way he, Kakashi and Guy  have been speaking to each other recently. Panels that show Tobi and Kakashi's Sharingan mirroring each other. Now we find out that Kakashi and Tobi's Sharingan both lead to the same dimension. The best bet right now is Obito. Even if its not Obito it is definitely his eye in Tobi's socket.

Tobi's Space–Time Migration is definitely a Mangekyo Sharingan ability. The reason Kishi hasn't shown us his MS before is because it would look exactly Kakashi's. Them having the same MS would have been a dead giveaway as far as Tobi's identity is concerned.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> [sp]Scars aren't evenly perpendicular like the ones you see on Tobi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



-Minato said when he broke in Konoha and that Barrier. "I know only 1 ninja capable of this" and asked him if he is Uchiha Madara.That means people recognized him like that because of his powers. Minato never knew someone can break through that barrier and kill all guards.

-Linked yea, him being Madara? No.

-They are combination to sweat, but Kabuto said he will use Madara if Tobi doesn't give him Sasuke after the war.In this situation, Madara is the one to be feared, not the others.

-I meant they knew each other sorry, my bad.


_Except there is no reason for him to keep hiding at this point in the story. The only reason he has to keep his face hidden is because it looks too much like Madara's and he's not Madara so it bothers him._

Lol? He could easily take the mask off. He is fightning against Kakashi,Gai,Naruto,Killer Bee. None of them know how Madara looked except for Naruto. So why the mask?

-_Worked together? No. It's obvious that Madara is against Tobi so why are you stating that they are friends and worked together like it's a fact???_

How is it obvious that Madara is against Tobi? He only said "Things didn't went according to the plan". Meaning something happened or Tobi betrayed him.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 9, 2012)

------------------------------

in response to Raventhal



Jeαnne said:


> no...
> 
> 
> if its like that anybody can make a theory about any character, and it wont need to make sense plotwise, or respect the timeline.
> ...




in response to Sutol



Jeαnne said:


> its not arrogance, we are just trying to read the story that was given to us up to this point making any sense. If we dont hold to this, anything, i mean, anything can be considered a theory
> 
> im not saying that the obito theory is wrong, im saying that you guys cant ignore the holes and weak points in it only because you want him to be obito. You cant come here and say that it makes complete sense only because kishi could still have his way around it and recton.
> 
> *Its not about opinion here, if we dont hold to manga facts, things become quite pointless.*




this will just make you laugh



♠Ace♠ said:


> Panel where it says Tobi is Obit in body and soul.
> I'll be waiting.
> 
> What Jeanne said is right. You call us insane, then proceed to say that we are wrong, yet you ignore all the plot holes that we post. The replies are also completely ignorant. There's no argument here, you've convinced yourself that he is because you want him to be. *Then you proceed to imply we are trying contradict Kishi because in your superior mindset, you and the authors viewpoint are equivalent*, even though the reveal and full explanation his history hasn't even been touched with a 40 foot stick. I'm fucking out of here.
> ...




some excellent points about Obito people should think about


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If Tobi's a Madara clone then why do they not share powers, personalities, appearance, or knowledge (Edo Tensei)?
> 
> And we've seen what happens when Edo Tensei fails, it doesn't produce anything.



They do share appearance. Tobi is an old Madara with Mifunes wrinkles. When hair is growed out, it is EXACTLY the same hairstyle as the real Madara.
If you look carefully at his face, the first wrinkles around his eyes are not the wrinkles under it. So its extremely identical to Madaras.

Simple, Tobi is just an immortal clone of Madara thats aging, (immortal doesnt mean living forever, i mean taking so much punches and still being alive), just draw an old Madara and see.

And the wrinkles looks extremely similar to aging as seen IRL AND on aging characters like Mifune and that rubbershit guy.

A Zetsu clone of Madara doesnt mean that it has to be an exact copy of Madara, like personality. It just needs to have a plan to follow. Guess the Madara clone lived long enough to stop caring about following orders and go for his own plans.

Even if they doesnt share their personalities, he still thinks hes Madara somehow. For example talking about the fight against Hashirama and talking with Konan. He just cant help it.

I dont think Tobi got Madaras soul, i think hes just a shell. Just DNA and the mind of Madara. 

I think that clones doesnt have the real power of their masters, Tobi himself is modified to resist pain and have extremely high levels of strenght and chakra. For example lifting Konan with one arm and just walk like nothing happened after having his arm ripped after the fight.

I think that even Orochimaru is interested in these clones. Maybe its a key of immortality. Maybe Madara created Tobi to become one being. Even Tobi states that hes not one being yet, if i remember correctly. 

Tobi totally ignores what or who he is. Even when Naruto says "YOURE ONE GUY" he doesnt seem to care. He really is noone. When he starts summoning ten tails he says "THIS IS DONE BY ME, A NOBODY!" 

Like, he is nothing, but he doesnt care, as long as he got power.

I wonder whats hiding behind that mask. Even Kabuto mocked his real identity while calling him Fake-Madara.

Okay this is just my theory of how he can be a clone.

I guess theres as many plotholes on this theory as every theory. But Kishi has disappointed us over and over again and i can totally see a chapter named "The two Madaras." coming.


----------



## Easley (Aug 9, 2012)

A Madara clone is plausible, but boring - unless he's a 'rogue' clone that diverged from the original years ago. However, the sheer blandness of a clone might work in the theory's favor. There is far less risk to the timeline or backstory if Tobi/Madara was present in Madara's time (shared memories), and acted as him. He's not the real Madara, but doesn't need to be. It's the truth as he knows it, and he could resent that; "I'm no one", I don't want to be anyone".

That being said, I think it would be a poor reveal. The characters might be shocked but it's kinda meh to the readers (well, this reader).

Madara clone is up there with Izuna in the possible but dull category.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 9, 2012)

Yeah! Madara clone theory, which is one I myself helped to perpetuate, has become one of my least favorite options...

...unless he's Yamato, I'd prefer that he not be a clone...


----------



## ch1p (Aug 9, 2012)

So I was thinking in the afternoon again....  and I wondered about Tobi's relation with Akatsuki. In tandem with a post I made earlier, it is easy to explain most of Tobi's career since then.

Notice _Tobi_ only exists after Obito died. It's first introduced VS Minato and that person did not exist before. However and from them on, there seems to be two Tobis, one with short and another with long hair. According to what I think, it's Obito and Madara-kun. At some point, Madara acknowledged he was getting old (even if Hashirama's DNA helped retain some vitality in some way) and that he wouldn't be able to carry on with his revenge at that rate. So he made plans with Tobi, later he'd be revived too. Whether this was before or after he found Obito on the rocks isn't important.

Madara was the leader of Akatsuki from the shadows, with Nagato as the sub-leader. When Madara saw that he was running out of time and started planning with Tobi, he purposely started wearing a mask, as Tobi isn't him after all, but he instructed that he should impersonate him to continue riding Akatsuki from the shadows. Because of the mask and the impersonation, Nagato / Konan wouldn't know when it switched from Madara to Obito. Anyway, when Madara died, Tobi took over and ran Akatsuki in his place.

This would explain well why Tobi acted so foolish at the beginning. He was Madara's apprentice / protegee, not the man behind Akatsuki originally. he took over some indescriminate time after Madara died. So Zetsu knew that Tobi isn't the real Madara, no wonder he treats him so disparingly at the beginning of part II. The asking to be part of Akatsuki might be Tobi being a troll, as usual. Or it could be an elaborate plan in the case if he's found amidst the Akatsuki ranks by some others, without being outed as their leader from the shadows. Remember only a select few knew he was the one that controlled Akatsuki (Nagato / Konan / Zetsu). The others wouldn't know. Kisame didn't for example.

Another thing that crossed my mind. I like the idea someone theorised before, that Madara saw Izuna in Obito very much so. That comes full circle with my theory about Madara giving Nagato his eyes (not Izuna's). Tobi, as Obito, has his original left eye, but his left is Madara's, as if they were bros swapping eyes as it should.

NOW TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF 'I SPURNED YAHIKO INTO FORMING AKATSUKI'.

What I've thought about... in broad strokes...


Konan makes a big deal out of the red clouds of the Akatsuki uniform: Kabuto returns to the point where this match was null.

However, the uniforms didn't have clouds in the beginning: Kabuto returns to the point where this match was null.

(Notice it's already Akatsuki by then.)
There might be something about Yahiko's death that might need to be explained. This page seems to male a connection about doing what they wanted (aka died for their beliefs, and if we look at it from a similar angle, redemption): Kabuto returns to the point where this match was null.

I wonder if the clouds have the signficance Tobi means. The turn from a peaceful organization prior to Yahiko dying into to the criminal organization it became is symbolised by the red clouds.

However, his words about spurning Yahiko into forming Akatsuki in the first place are still a mystery.



jacamo said:


> some excellent points about Obito people should think about



The problem here isn't that Tobito believers ignore the "plotholes". They don't. They provide fanfiction to explain why they aren't an issue. Some are better made up than others, but the content of the fanfiction isn't what's important. What's important is that people can come up reasonable explanations that fit the story and themes, and wipe away said "plotholes". If a bunch of people in a board can come up with fitting possibilities, then that means Kishimoto also can. You're the one that keeps screaming "plotholes" when they aren't "plotholes" to begin with.

For example, you keep ranting about Nagato's eyes and it can't be Obito. However, you ignore that many have said that Tobi is a liar / Tobi is impersonating Madara. You might not agree with that and I won't blame you for that. However, you can't deny that Tobi is a liar and that Tobi has impersonated Madara. As such, those are reasonable roads to explore, and what you deem as a plothole really isn't.

Kishimoto has completed many "plotholes" that people fought for many years. I've already referenced the big controversy around Naruto being either Minato's kid or his reincarnation. One of the biggest arguments against being his father was that it was _too coincidental_ that Naruto was born the day the Kyubi attacked AND who'd even seal a monster inside their own kid? However, when we knew the story, that argument was thrown into the ground quite mercilessly. Kyubi attacked _because Naruto was born_ and it was sealed within him, because like his mother, he has special chakra. He can always cook up a story that will fit, because in this case, the fans can cook up a story that fits. Pray that he won't explain away those "plotholes" like Itachi's tears that Sasuke conveniently repressed, because then... there will be a lot of complaining.

However, other theories aren't as easily completed as Tobito.


Albeit I'm (still) partial to Izuna, how can you explain Madara's line about Izuna only leaving his eyes to him after he died? Madara and Tobi know each other according to Kishimoto. That means that if it was Izuna, Madara wouldn't have said there's nothing left of his brother but the eyes. Madara isn't a known liar like Tobi is.
Kagami and Setsuna have no thematic, no parallels, no discernible motive to be Tobi. It can always happen sure, but what of it? What kind of impact would it have? None.
Madara clone / experiment alone is the same as Kagami / Setsuna. Most Tobito believers are under the impression he's a clone / experiment anyway, half of his body is gone after all.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

jacamo said:


> LOL... by "evidence" ObitoUchiha111 means circumstantial evidence, which are essentially just hints... in case anyone was confused


Circumstantial evidence is still evidence.



> there are plenty of hints for the Kagami theory... you know, just like the Obito theory has hints... no one can claim the Obito hints are better than Kagami hints, and if you want to say the Kagami hints are BS then so are Obito's


7 misconceived "hints" for Kagami compared to the over 9000 hints for Obito.





> 1) how can Kagami have ties to Senju Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders Koharu and Homura and NOT be involved somehow?


Prove how he was involved.



> 2) is it a coincidence that Tobi can be derived from his sensei's name *Tobi*rama? i dont know, but its a hint


It's not a hint. It's complete coincidence. Tobi and Tobirama are comprised of completely different Japanese characters.



> 3) Tobi is a master of (S/T) Jikukan Ido... is it a coincidence that Tobirama is also said to be a master at Jikukan Ido? i dont know, but its a hint


Why would Tobirama teach anything to an Uchiha?



> 4) Kagami was introduced at a crucial time - Danzo's death


You call that an introduction?

And even if it was, what does it matter?



> 5) the Elders Koharu/Homura still have a role to play and Kagami knows them


How do you know they still have a role to play? Did Kishi tell you? Look who's making assumptions now... -.-'



> 6) Kagami's timeline fits prefectly as far as: giving Nagato the Rinnegan; creating Akatsuki; taking control over Kirigakure; knowing Madara and Hashirama personally (Madara said he knows who Tobi is... Tobi also said he fought Hashirama to Kabuto when there was no reason to keep up the act)


izuna fits the timeline. So does Setsuna. And Torifu. And a Hriuzen clone. My point is, how is this a hint to Kagami?

Lol at 16 year old fodder Kagami fighting a Rikudou level Kage. 

Do you even think these through?



> 7) Tobi has knowledge that only someone as old as Kagami would have... such as Aburame Shikuro's jutsu, how to extract the Kyubi from its host, the workings of the Senju-Uchiha feud *pre-Konoha*, and how to bypass Konoha's security system undetected


Again, this doesn't specifically hint at Kagami.



jacamo said:


> its not a "prove me wrong" response
> 
> they are all legitimate Kagami hints
> 
> nothing more


Legitimate? They aren't even hints.



HakuGaara said:


> Scars aren't evenly perpendicular like the ones you see on Tobi.


We don't really know the patern of the creases and ridges of the boulder. It could have possible produced that effect. Notice how Tobi's left face side was shaded during his fight with Konan. For what? Is he a half Madara, half Hashirama clone?



> There's been no logical explanation as to why he called himself Madara. In fact he doesn't really seem to care if people think he's Madara or not. The reason he reacted that way is because he is intrinsically linked to Madara.


Yes, there was a logical explanation. He called himself Madara in order to start a war. You say the evidence points to this but you're ignoring the manga.




> Except there is no reason for him to keep hiding at this point in the story. The only reason he has to keep his face hidden is because it looks too much like Madara's and he's not Madara so it bothers him.


*sigh*





> Well it's not an anagram for Obito because it doesn't have enough Os.



The lost "O" symbol in Japanese could symbolize his incompleteness, while the "Bi" and "To" symbols being switched could symbolize his complete change in personality.




> Yes, Tobi having Obito's eye is supported. Tobi *being* Obito on the other hand, is not supported at all and is illogical.


And you're saying this Madara garbage _is_? Seriously, people need to let it go. They're just butthurt Tobidara supporters. They are two different people. Just let it freaking go.




> Are Onoki and A wearing masks and have been mistaken for Madara?


You're changing the subject.




> Things? The only thing he did that Madara was known for was summoning Kyuubi. He hasn't displayed any of Madara's other abilities yet people still think he's Madara.


NO, Minato gave a perfect explanation for why he thought he was Madara.





> Tobi:
> 
> Madara:
> 
> Yes. Deal with it.


So Tobi wants to resurrect himself when he is clearly alive?

Tobi most likely meant that he wanted it to be used for his purposes. Not literally on him.





> No, Tobi's reaction was specifically toward the coffin. I believe his words were "Where did you get that?!?!?"


Yes, he was wondering where Kabuto got Madara's body. So what?




> Him being a failed Edo would explain why he thinks that. Because he wouldn't have his own identity. Aren't you paying attention?


he's not an Edo. the whites around his eyes aren't black, and he doesn't have instant regeneration. He also doesn't have the cracks.




> It proves that Tobi and Madara are more similar than Tobi and Obito.


No, it really doesn't.





> DUH. That's why it *failed*. Are you even paying attention are you just slow on the uptake?


But you're saying that he is a failed Edo, which means that it had to have some effect, which it wouldn't.





> No, it would be a plot-hole if the Edo Tensai *worked*.


According to your logic, it kind of did.





> Todara has the most connections and circumstantial evidence out of all the theories.


Suuuuuuuuure........



Escargon said:


> [sp]They do share appearance. Tobi is an old Madara with Mifunes wrinkles. When hair is growed out, it is EXACTLY the same hairstyle as the real Madara.
> If you look carefully at his face, the first wrinkles around his eyes are not the wrinkles under it. So its extremely identical to Madaras.
> 
> Simple, Tobi is just an immortal clone of Madara thats aging, (immortal doesnt mean living forever, i mean taking so much punches and still being alive), just draw an old Madara and see.
> ...


I'm done with this shit. I'm not even gonna bother replying to these Tobidara posts anymore.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> However and from them on, there seems to be two Tobis, one with short and another with long hair. According to what I think, it's Obito and Madara-kun. At some point, Madara acknowledged he was getting old (even if Hashirama's DNA helped retain some vitality in some way) and that he wouldn't be able to carry on with his revenge at that rate. So he made plans with Tobi, later he'd be revived too. Whether this was before or after he found Obito on the rocks isn't important.



No, the long haired masked man was not Madara. And there isn't two Tobi's. Tobi is only one person. If the long haired masked man actually was Madara, then why was he wearing the exact same mask as the one Tobi wore in his fight with Minato?

Seriously, the only reason why people think the long haired Tobi is Madara, is because he had long hair identical to the real Madara's.

That's such a weak reason. 




> This would explain well why Tobi acted so foolish at the beginning. He was Madara's apprentice / protegee, not the man behind Akatsuki originally. he took over some indescriminate time after Madara died. So Zetsu knew that Tobi isn't the real Madara, no wonder he treats him so disparingly at the beginning of part II.



The goofiness was all just an act. I'm pretty sure.



> NOW TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF 'I SPURNED YAHIKO INTO FORMING AKATSUKI'.
> 
> What I've thought about... in broad strokes...
> 
> ...



No, look at the top left panel of the page. You can clearly see a cloud on the lower part of Yahiko's Akatsuki's coat.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would Tobirama teach anything to an Uchiha?



Why are you so against Tobirama teaching an Uchiha? What's so wrong about it? Tobirama doesn't specifically hate the Uchiha.




> How do you know they still have a role to play? Did Kishi tell you? Look who's making assumptions now... -.-'



The elders may be the "ones who know everything".



> We don't really know the patern of the creases and ridges of the boulder. It could have possible produced that effect. Notice how Tobi's left face side was shaded during his fight with Konan. For what? Is he a half Madara, half Hashirama clone?



I'm pretty sure Kishi shaded that area to not reveal too much of his face.


----------



## principito (Aug 9, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> [sp]Just wanna ask something to all of you;
> 
> Why do you wanna see just one Tobi?
> 
> ...



HMMMMMMM

this would explain many many things actually

not sure its danzo....

but imna hop on this wagon


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, the long haired masked man was not Madara. And there isn't two Tobi's. Tobi is only one person. If the long haired masked man actually was Madara, then why was he wearing the exact same mask as the one Tobi wore in his fight with Minato?


Maybe he borrowed it from Tobi.

Agreed about Tobi being only one person though.

But I also think the long haired masked man could be Madara. It's a small possibility but I wouldn't rule it out.



> Seriously, the only reason why people think the long haired Tobi is Madara, is because he had long hair identical to the real Madara's.
> 
> That's such a weak reason.


There's also the fact that he had a grudge against the Uchiha and he had his hand on his hip in typical Madara fashion. 

Plus, he looked pretty tall.



> Why are you so against Tobirama teaching an Uchiha? What's so wrong about it? Tobirama doesn't specifically hate the Uchiha.


Yes, but he was very suspicious of them and kept them under close guard. So why would he teach one Space-Time Ninjutsu? And how would he have had the time? Kagami was only with him for like, one mission! And, I don't think Tobirama's Space-Time Ninjutsu came from his eye. Tobi's S/T is most likely an MS technique.




> The elders may be the "ones who know everything".


Why would Sasuke need Orochimaru to see them?



> I'm pretty sure Kishi shaded that area to not reveal too much of his face.


I doubt it.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

Dont hate on me:<

When we saw Tobis face for the first time, we have already seen Madaras face, so whats the point showing Tobis face IF it didnt look like Madaras, atleast that part?

People doesnt get that EVEN if Tobi got Madaras face its not Madara. He could have his DNA = parts of his face looking like Madara. Otherwise there would be no reason for Kishi to even show Madara before sixth coffin..

Theres something i dont like with the sixth coffin. The painted toenails is the biggest TROLLING EVER!

The first time we saw edo Madaras feets i thought it was R Sennin and hes a Akatsuki, best mindfuck ever but it turned to be yet another Uchiha..

Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:
			
		

> Dont hate on me:<
> 
> When we saw Tobis face for the first time, we have already seen Madaras face, so whats the point showing Tobis face IF it didnt look like Madaras, atleast that part?


Because Tobi DOES sorta look like Madara. Sort of. They eye shape is a little off though, but I doubt anyone really cared/noticed at the time. it doesn't mean he has Madara's face, it just means that the part he showed to Sasuke was all he could show to convince him.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yes, but he was very suspicious of them and kept them under close guard. So why would he teach one Space-Time Ninjutsu? And how would he have had the time? Kagami was only with him for like, one mission! And, I don't think Tobirama's Space-Time Ninjutsu came from his eye. Tobi's S/T is most likely an MS technique.



Maybe Kagami was a really good teammate and was very loyal and respectful to him that he gained his trust and became worthy of learning such a great technique.

And I doubt Tobi's S/T jutsu is an MS technique. We don't even know if Tobi even has a MS or not. All the times we've seen Tobi use the S/T jutsu was in base Sharingan.




> Why would Sasuke need Orochimaru to see them?



That's for Kishi to explain.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Because Tobi DOES sorta look like Madara. Sort of. They eye shape is a little off though, but I doubt anyone really cared/noticed at the time. it doesn't mean he has Madara's face, it just means that the part he showed to Sasuke was all he could show to convince him.



Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.

They look EXACTLY the same. Just imagine Madara with that broken mask.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:
			
		

> Maybe Kagami was a really good teammate and was very loyal and respectful to him that he gained his trust and became worthy of learning such a great technique.


What do you have to suggest this?



> And I doubt Tobi's S/T jutsu is an MS technique. We don't even know if Tobi even has a MS or not. All the times we've seen Tobi use the S/T jutsu was in base Sharingan.


You sure? We've never seen his eye when he teleports or goes intangible. Also, there is, I believe, one panel where we can see his eye from a distance and it resembles an MS.



> That's for Kishi to explain.


-.-'


----------



## MYJC (Aug 9, 2012)

Easley said:


> A Madara clone is plausible, but boring - unless he's a 'rogue' clone that diverged from the original years ago.



This is kinda what I was thinking. 

As in, Madara made a clone to carry out his plans after he died (and to make sure Nagato revived him later), but the clone went rogue after Madara died and started doing his own thing. 

Kabuto's line here kind of hints at that: Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.

"..I am on your side...though _I am unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned_".


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

MYJC said:


> This is kinda what I was thinking.
> 
> As in, Madara made a clone to carry out his plans after he died (and to make sure Nagato revived him later), but the clone went rogue after Madara died and started doing his own thing.
> 
> ...



Yeah but in the same time they call it *him*, it hints that hes more than a clone i guess.

Or nvm look how Madaras acting when Kabuto called him Fake-Madara. Like Madara and Tobi are really close to eachother, i mean closer than "friends."

Like a lover. Or a clone.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What do you have to suggest this?



Nothing. I'm just guessing what can maybe be the case.



> You sure? We've never seen his eye when he teleports or goes intangible. Also, there is, I believe, one panel where we can see his eye from a distance and it resembles an MS.



Yes we have.

Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.
Top left panel.

Oh, and mind showing me that panel where is eye resembles an MS? I wanna see it. You're not obliged to, though.


----------



## Fatstogey (Aug 9, 2012)

Obito?  It cant be.  So you guys think that Minato's own apprentice when from being a crying lil bitch that he had to save to being able to be on par with him?  

?????

The timelines dont match up for it to be Obito.  Obito was Kakashi's age.  When the kyubi attacked Konoha... KAKASHI WAS NOT ON PAR WITH MINATO.   Tobi was.  Obito was not.  

Ill quit reading if he plot haxes it to be Obito cause it cannot be written that way legit.


LMAO Obito was so badass Madara knew who he was....... lol wtf yall?  The real madara knows Tobi.  When he died is in question but it was certainly early enough that even if Obito were alive he wouldnt be badass enough to be recognized by madara.  no way


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

I never thought about Madara literally giving Nagato his own blinded eyes.  Not Izuna's eyes.  I wonder if Senju/Uzumake DNA counter act the MS blindness.  Iit could explain how Tobi can spam MS without going blind.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

Fatstogey said:


> Obito?  It cant be.  So you guys think that Minato's own apprentice when from being a crying lil bitch that he had to save to being able to be on par with him?
> 
> ?????
> 
> ...



Kishimoto could *pull some shit.

Like how being in another dimension slows the time and how that scroll is actually time travel.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I wonder if Senju/Uzumake DNA counter act the MS blindness.  Iit could explain how Tobi can spam MS without going blind.



No, it probably can't. I don't think Senju/Uzumaki DNA have anything to do with MS blindness. And I highly doubt Tobi has MS.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.
> 
> They look EXACTLY the same. Just imagine Madara with that broken mask.








Yeah, I'm not seeing the resemblance. Madara's eyelids CONNECT to the corners of his eyes. So so his under-eye creases. Tobi's do not. That right there is a gaping problem for your theory. Also, Tobi's eye shape only matches Obito's. Well, Izuna could fit the bill as well.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

Fatstogey said:


> Obito?  It cant be.  So you guys think that Minato's own apprentice when from being a crying lil bitch that he had to save to being able to be on par with him?
> 
> ?????
> 
> ...



So you mean Naruto before he learned SM in a few days could have fought on part with Pain because massive jumps in powers in short term are impossible?  You mean Sasuke took 8 years of training his MS before he use a single MS ability?  Sasuke didn't go from bare Susanoo to Fully armored Susanoo in a day?

Tobi vs. Minato.
Chains(elite taijutsu folks!) fail.
Sharingan Doujutsu S/T
Sharingan Doujutsu Kyuubi control.

We all know sharingan doujutsu takes years to master.   I wonder how many times Itachi failed at using Izanami since he has so many eyes to practice with.

It's also impossible for young characters in this manga to be strong.  I mean Itachi couldn't have destroyed his clan at 13, or Naruto and Sasuke being top 10 in power at age 16.  IMPOSSIBLE!!!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, it probably can't. I don't think Senju/Uzumaki DNA have anything to do with MS blindness. And I highly doubt Tobi has MS.



So why would Kakashi's MS counter Tobi's likely Obito's eye if it's not MS doujutsu as well?


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Nothing. I'm just guessing what can maybe be the case.


Exactly my point.





> Yes we have.
> 
> Here Itachi needs Sasuke to break him out of genjutsu.
> Top left panel.


That panel never happened!




> Oh, and mind showing me that panel where is eye resembles an MS? I wanna see it. You're not obliged to, though.


It was when Sasuke fought Danzo or something. I'l look for it later and PM it to you.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, it probably can't. I don't think Senju/Uzumaki DNA have anything to do with MS blindness. And I highly doubt Tobi has MS.



Actually, from what Itachi said it probably does, or if not Senju DNA than at least Senju chakra. 




> Bee: Why didn't you use Shisui's eye on Sasuke in the first place, fool?
> 
> Itachi: I couldn't use it. At least not then. Shisui's Mangekyou requires at least another decade to activate again. Discounting Senju Hashirama's chakra, unlikely as that is.



Whoever he is, Tobi probably at least has some Senju DNA/Chakra. That would explain how he can spam teleportation/intangibility/warping without going blink.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah, I'm not seeing the resemblance. Madara's eyelids CONNECT to the corners of his eyes. Tobi's do not. That right there is a gaping problem for your theory. Tobi's eye shape only matches Obito's. Well, Izuna could fit the bill as well.



Stealthedit: Well Sasuke got the same eye connects as Tobi

Shorthaired Tobi got the same hairstyle as Obito.

Longhaired Tobi got the exact same hairstyle as Madara.

Tobi is like a Frankenstein of Uchihas<<


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:
			
		

> First, theres some shadow under Tobis eye.


So? You can still clearly see that the under-eye crease doesn't connect to his eye like Madara's does.



> Secondly, noone else than Madara got Tobis eyewrinkles and scratch under his eyebrow.


What? Scratch? That's an eyelid. Everyone has those. Look at any other character and you'll see.



> And hairstyle:>


Why couldn't Tobi grow his hair out to be like Madara's?



> Well Sasuke got the same eye connects as Tobi


Um, if you mean that their eyelids look similar, then yeah. There;s not many ways to draw eyelids.



> Shorthaired Tobi got the same hairstyle as Obito.


Yep.



> Longhaired Tobi got the exact same hairstyle as Madara.


Well, technically no. He doesn't have that long bang of hair that covers his right eye. And, Madara's was more spiky at the top than Tobi's.



> Tobi is like a Frankenstein of Uchihas<<


You serious, bro?



> 1. That picture sucks, really. It looks like Tobi got a lack of sleep. Compare Madara to chapter 510, even if its not that much better.


The picture I gave you was a more than good enough look at his face. It was a direct close up. Either way, Tobi and Madara's eye lids are completely different.



> 2. Nvm that. Other Uchihas got it.


So does everyone else. >.>



> 3. Cause people are saying hair is important in this manga no mather what. :>


Well, it's only important to a certain degree.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So? You can still clearly see that the under-eye crease doesn't connect to his eye like Madara's does.
> 
> What? Scratch? That's an eyelid. Everyone has those. Look at any other character and you'll see.
> 
> Why couldn't Tobi grow his hair out to be like Madara's?



I stealthedited cause its not proofy enough:<

1. That picture sucks, really. It looks like Tobi got a lack of sleep. Compare Madara to chapter 510, even if its not that much better.

2. Nvm that. Other Uchihas got it.

3. Cause people are saying hair is important in this manga no mather what. :>


----------



## Easley (Aug 9, 2012)

Eye shapes were valid at the time, but hundreds of chapters later Kishi can just pretend they weren't accurate. Tobi's eye in chapter 397 was almost identical to young Madara's eye (side by side pics) but I wouldn't use them as proof now.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Yes we have.
> 
> from what Itachi said
> Top left panel.



This is a great find... how did people miss that?


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

Here, i did something. Doesn't Tobi's and Obito's eye look a bit too much similar? Even the eyebrows, thick and long.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Here, i did something. Doesn't Tobi's and Obito's eye look a bit too much similar? Even the eyebrows, thick and long.


To be fair, it looks nothing like Obito.

It looks like Kagami actually, atleast in that page.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:
			
		

> Here, i did something. Doesn't Tobi's and Obito's eye look a bit too much similar? Even the eyebrows, thick and long.


Of course they're similar. They're the same person!



			
				Escargon said:
			
		

> To be fair, it looks nothing like Obito.
> 
> It looks like Kagami actually, atleast in that page.


You're just blinding yourself from seeing what's there.

And, Kagami looks completely different than Tobi.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

Ah, there is a lot of Anime pictures that i could've used, but i won't because it's kinda different in Manga. I don't believe in any theory but i made this pictures because it slightly resembled Obito.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> So why would Kakashi's MS counter Tobi's likely Obito's eye if it's not MS doujutsu as well?



Can you rephrase that? I didn't understand a thing you wrote, sorry.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Exactly my point.



Well... what do you expect? Do you honestly believe I've real evidence to show why I suggested that?

Kagami is a character that we don't know much about. Neither is Tobirama. The best we can do is predict.




> It was when Sasuke fought Danzo or something. I'l look for it later and PM it to you.



Okay.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:


> To be fair, it looks nothing like Obito.
> 
> It looks like Kagami actually, atleast in that page.



Kagami's hair is more curved spikey while Tobi's is triangle spikey.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Can you rephrase that? I didn't understand a thing you wrote, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Kakashi's MS can counter Tobi's eye.  Tobi's eye is likely Obito's.  Thus likelihood that Tobi's S/T effect comes from MS.

2. We've never seen ninjutsu effects from the sharingan without it being MS.


----------



## Penance (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Of course they're similar. They're the same person!
> 
> You're just blinding yourself from seeing what's there.
> 
> And, Kagami looks completely different than Tobi.



If this were a Scrubs episode, it would be called, "My Evidence"...


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Of course they're similar. They're the same person!
> 
> You're just blinding yourself from seeing what's there.
> 
> And, Kagami looks completely different than Tobi.



Just THAT picture look like an aged Kagami in my opinion. In some other panels, Tobi looks like a few different characters.



Raventhal said:


> Kagami's hair is more curved spikey while Tobi's is triangle spikey.



Were not talking about hair now:<


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Just THAT picture look like an aged Kagami in my opinion. In some other panels, Tobi looks like a few different characters


 I agree here, sometimes he looks like Madara, sometimes like Obito etc.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Just THAT picture look like an aged Kagami in my opinion. In some other panels, Tobi looks like a few different characters.
> 
> 
> 
> Were not talking about hair now:<



Problem is Tobi's eye has a weird deformity on his eye and we've not seen the other side of his face to see if it's drawn the same.   I don't think any older person has been drawn with those type of features as wrinkles.  But Kagami's hair doesn't fit which is drawn much more consistently than eyes are drawn.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

I think we should just wait for the revelation, we will guess nothing like this..


----------



## Escargon (Aug 9, 2012)

Just saying that THAT picture looks like Kagami, im not counting the hair in, just the face.

Well atleast youre in to something. My theory is that Tobi is some guy with Madaras DNA deforming half of his face that he always shows to trick people.

Thats why when he got the scar (mask) on the side where his other face is, he looked extremely pissed off. 

So, my theory is that Tobi got two faces but i dont want to argue so much about Tobis identity, i mean Kishi drags this shit on FOREVER!

And when the identity is shown, the whole forum will go "i told you so" including me.

But im saying it again, Tobis identity should have been revealed when Naruto smashed his mask with his head..


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

In favor of the Kagami theorists(can't believe I'm doing this), Tobi's hair actually does seem to be curly like Kagami's in some panels:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Just some interesting panels I've noticed where Tobi's first two locks of hair seem to form a pair of devil horns similar to Kagami(possibly symbolizing how evil he really was). Or something...

I still hate the theory, though.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

He had that hair at the side, Tobi doesn't have that.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:
			
		

> http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kagami_Uchiha
> 
> He had that hair at the side, Tobi doesn't have that.


He trimmed it?


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

lol Naruto characters don't do that!


----------



## mrweekend (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that panel DID happen....I had to double check at a couple other manga sites for that page....

It seems that an explosive tag is phasing thru him as he is shocked by Konan's words....we clearly see that his right eye is in base sharingan mode....


From this picture, I conclude that Tobi's intangibility is NOT a MS jutsu....with that said, I lost faith in the Tobi/Obito theory a lil bit, as it seems that there is no apparent Kamui/Tobi S/T jutsu connection like most people believe.  But now the question is, what kind of jutsu is Tobi S/T jutsu if it isnt a MS jutsu???

Also I want to be clear: I don't think this particularly damages Tobi/Obito chances of happening, but I think this still keeps the door open for characters would we may believe is Tobi


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> lol Naruto characters don't do that!


Well, Tobi grew his hair out to be like Madara's and the  trimmed it down to his old hair style again, so what's the problem?



			
				mrweekend said:
			
		

> that panel DID happen....I had to double check at a couple other manga sites for that page....
> 
> It seems that an explosive tag is phasing thru him as he is shocked by Konan's words....we clearly see that his right eye is in base sharingan mode....
> 
> ...


Yes, I know. I was joking about it never happening.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, Tobi grew his hair out to be like Madara's and the  trimmed it down to his old hair style again, so what's the problem?



Problem is there are no barbers in Naruto world!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

mrweekend said:


> that panel DID happen....I had to double check at a couple other manga sites for that page....
> 
> It seems that an explosive tag is phasing thru him as he is shocked by Konan's words....we clearly see that his right eye is in base sharingan mode....
> 
> ...



from what Itachi said

Itachi used Susanoo without even his sharingan on....


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:
			
		

> Problem is there are no barbers in Naruto world!


How do you know? Tobi cut his Madara hair, so why couldn't he have cut his sideburns?


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> from what Itachi said
> 
> Itachi used Susanoo without even his sharingan on....


Wow, that's strange.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> from what Itachi said
> 
> Itachi used Susanoo without even his sharingan on....


He was blind. His Mangekyou Sharingan was still active, the loss of the Tomoe Seal just signifies the eyes' loss of _"light"_, not their power.


----------



## mrweekend (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, Tobi grew his hair out to be like Madara's and the  trimmed it down to his old hair style again, so what's the problem?
> 
> Yes, I know. I was joking about it never happening.



Good to know.  Kudos to you, you're 1 of the few legit debaters here.... alot of theories have taken hits or have been completely smashed and most people here act like they didnt see anything -_-


...at the end of the day, this realization doesn't help, cause it complicates more....




WHO THA FUCK TOBI IS!!! cry



I swear, the Tobi mask removal better be the 1 of the best "who is he" revelations to take place in a manga..


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

mrweekend said:


> Good to know.  Kudos to you, you're 1 of the few legit debaters here.... alot of theories have taken hits or have been completely smashed and most people here act like they didnt see anything -_-
> 
> 
> ...at the end of the day, this realization doesn't help, cause it complicates more....
> ...



I just go with Obito right now because there's at least some connections there for and against.  Other theories largely have to speculate because there's not much plot to prove one way or another.  

Who Tobi is not likely going to be clear due to his identity is supposed to be a mystery, poor timeline transparency due to lack of dating and unreliable narration.  I actually think I'm going to be disappointed because debating who he is will probably be more fun than the reveal.


----------



## Talis (Aug 9, 2012)

I already dreamed about this a few times, all of the results was Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

SaiST said:
			
		

> He was blind. His Mangekyou Sharingan was still active, the loss of the Tomoe Seal just signifies the eyes' loss of "light", not their power.


Source?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 9, 2012)

I've spent some time gathering panels up for comparison. Make of them what you will, I suppose. 



Maybe you'll notice something that you didn't before. *shrug*


----------



## son_michael (Aug 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I already dreamed about this a few times, all of the results was Obito.



confirmed then


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol funny thing is I was randomly on that panel with Itachi's eyes looking for this.



This looks like it could be Obito.  Seems to be a younger face with mass deformities especially the top panel.  Younger I mean Sannin and younger.  Old characters simply aren't drawn like that in this manga. Older characters lose their smooth round angles and have harder sunken faces or more square angles on their faces.   

It also looks like he used Izanagi there too as his "fail-safe".


----------



## SaiST (Aug 9, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Source?


The page Raventhal just linked to. He's using a technique that requires the active Doujutsu, just because the Tomoe Seal is gone doesn't mean it has been deactivated.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

SaiST said:


> The page Raventhal just linked to. He's using a technique that requires the active Doujutsu, just because the Tomoe Seal is gone doesn't mean it has been deactivated.



Maybe so or maybe not.   Sasuke's Susanoo dropped when he lost his light.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Maybe so or maybe not.   Sasuke's Susanoo dropped when he lost his light.


Sasuke's Susanoo dissipated due to the strain invoked from overuse of his ocular powers; his physical constitution was beginning to deteriorate, and his Mangekyou Sharingan was deactivated as a result.

Sasuke eyesight had not deteriorated as quite as far as Itachi's had.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 9, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Sasuke's Susanoo dissipated due to the strain invoked from overuse of his ocular powers; his physical constitution was beginning to deteriorate, and his Mangekyou Sharingan was deactivated as a result.
> 
> Sasuke eyesight had not deteriorated as quite as far as Itachi's had.



He appeared blind or almost blind.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 9, 2012)

Didn't seem to be any worse than Itachi's was during the beginning of his bout with Sasuke.

By the time Itachi whipped out Susanoo, it's inferred that he was completely blind. Sasuke's vision was a blurry mess, but he could still see.

Anyways, sub-topic's going off-topic. If you wish to continue, we can do so through VMs.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, the long haired masked man was not Madara.



And you know this for sure, how?



> And there isn't two Tobi's. Tobi is only one person. If the long haired masked man actually was Madara, then why was he wearing the exact same mask as the one Tobi wore in his fight with Minato?



Why wouldn't Tobi use the same mask when he was doing his best in _impersonating_ Madara? And following your own logic, why did Tobi switch from that weird pattern to the spiral one if they are the same person then?



> Seriously, the only reason why people think the long haired Tobi is Madara, is because he had long hair identical to the real Madara's.
> 
> That's such a weak reason.



According to you, both the masked men are the same person. As such... if we assume that the Yagura flashback occurred before Naruto's birth, the reason for Tobi to cut his hair short is? And if we assume that the Yagura flashback occurred after Naruto's birth, the reason for Tobi to cut his hair short, then let it grow towards impossible lenghts or use a henge, then cut it short again / henge back is?



> The goofiness was all just an act. I'm pretty sure.



Pretty sure it was too, I agree.



> No, look at the top left panel of the page. You can clearly see a cloud on the lower part of Yahiko's Akatsuki's coat.



Uhm, yes, I had not noticed. I said broad strokes after all. It was just a way to explain the new clouds anyway, not really related to Tobi theories. That I still need an explanation for.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 9, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> According to you, both the masked men are the same person. As such... if we assume that the Yagura flashback occurred before Naruto's birth, the reason for Tobi to cut his hair short is?* And if we assume that the Yagura flashback occurred after Naruto's birth*, the reason for Tobi to cut his hair short, then let it grow towards impossible lenghts or use a henge, then cut it short again / henge back is?



it didn't happen before narutos birth


----------



## Talis (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, the long haired masked man was not Madara. And there isn't two Tobi's. Tobi is only one person. If the long haired masked man actually was Madara, then why was he wearing the exact same mask as the one Tobi wore in his fight with Minato?
> 
> Seriously, the only reason why people think the long haired Tobi is Madara, is because he had long hair identical to the real Madara's.
> 
> That's such a weak reason.


So basically you say, its not possible to have 2 units of the same mask but its possible to have the exact same hairstyle for no reason? 
Anyways more things points out for the long haired masked man being the real Madara, the pose, and his chest was covered with bandage while the real Madara ''died'' having a sword cut through it, and even Itachi calling ''Madara'' suddenly Tobi makes no sense he had no time after he got ET'd to figure out that the real Madara was also edo'd.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 9, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> it didn't happen before narutos birth



"During his time as Mizukage, the village was known as the "Village of the Bloody Mist" (血霧の里, Chigiri no Sato), mostly because of the barbaric ritual where Academy students kill one another in order to graduate. This practice was discontinued when an entire graduating batch of Academy students were massacred by a young Zabuza Momochi. It is likely that Yagura was the Mizukage whom Zabuza tried to assassinate when he revolted."

So if Zabuza was only a kid who was too young yet for the Academy.
Naruto definitely wasn't born yet.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 9, 2012)

Something a little interesting about the Kagami theory.

His mentor seemed to be Tobirama.

Tobirama

Tobi.

I support the Izuna theory, but food for thought.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. Kakashi's MS can counter Tobi's eye.  Tobi's eye is likely Obito's.  Thus likelihood that Tobi's S/T effect comes from MS.
> 
> 2. We've never seen ninjutsu effects from the sharingan without it being MS.



This page proves that Tobi's S/T Jutsu is *not* an MS technique and that Tobi doesn't even have an MS in the first place.

extends in the original
Top left panel.



Ch1p said:


> And you know this for sure, how?



I never said I knew it for sure.




> And following your own logic, why did Tobi switch from that weird pattern to the spiral one if they are the same person then?



Because he felt like it?
What does changing masks have to do with Tobi being the long haired masked man?


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So basically you say, its not possible to have 2 units of the same mask but its possible to have the exact same hairstyle for no reason?
> Anyways more things points out for the long haired masked man being the real Madara, the pose, and his chest was covered with bandage while the real Madara ''died'' having a sword cut through it, and even Itachi calling ''Madara'' suddenly Tobi makes no sense he had no time after he got ET'd to figure out that the real Madara was also edo'd.


At this point, I really think the long haired masked man was Madara and not Tobi.



Tharris said:


> "During his time as Mizukage, the village was known as the "Village of the Bloody Mist" (血霧の里, Chigiri no Sato), mostly because of the barbaric ritual where Academy students kill one another in order to graduate. This practice was discontinued when an entire graduating batch of Academy students were massacred by a young Zabuza Momochi. It is likely that Yagura was the Mizukage whom Zabuza tried to assassinate when he revolted."
> 
> So if Zabuza was only a kid who was too young yet for the Academy.
> Naruto definitely wasn't born yet.


I think what was being referred to was the long haired masked man's meeting with Kisame.



			
				Hossaim said:
			
		

> Something a little interesting about the Kagami theory.
> 
> His mentor seemed to be Tobirama.
> 
> ...


Well, not really. You see, the japanese characters for "Tobi" and "Tobirama" differ, so if Kagami shortened the name, he'd get "Tobira".


----------



## Talis (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> This page proves that Tobi's S/T Jutsu is *not* an MS technique and that Tobi doesn't even have an MS in the first place.


Theres thousands of panels blackening out tobi's eye design when theres a close up of his eye.
And how exactly does your link disprove it?


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 9, 2012)

Can someone link the face with Konan and with Sasuke together?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 9, 2012)

Tharris said:


> "During his time as Mizukage, the village was known as the "Village of the Bloody Mist" (血霧の里, Chigiri no Sato), mostly because of the barbaric ritual where Academy students kill one another in order to graduate. This practice was discontinued when an entire graduating batch of Academy students were massacred by a young Zabuza Momochi. It is likely that Yagura was the Mizukage whom Zabuza tried to assassinate when he revolted."
> 
> So if Zabuza was only a kid who was too young yet for the Academy.
> Naruto definitely wasn't born yet.



For starters you got that from the wiki, which is anything but 100% accurate.
Second we don't know WHEN the bloody mist began and WHY. You can speculate all you want, and they can be all possible, but we just don't know and we won't know until we get the timeline straightened out on tobi and madara and when madara died and who tobi is.
Bloody mist could have arose during the 3rd Mizukages reign. It also could have begun during the 4th mizukages (yagura's) reign and when he began to get controlled, the manipulator decided to just continue the practices or spur them on. The bloody mist DIDNT end with Zabuza killing his classmates. Even though THAT practice ended, It continued for some time after as Haku was persecuted and watched as his dad killed his mom for example. And for how long yagura was manipulated for is unknown as well as how he died which freed the yonbi.
Figuring out the circumstances of the 'bloody mist' is all speculation and none of which is fact. We just don't know. Saying Yagura "seems like a good guy" isn't a valid excuse. 

Now the Kisame flashback IS after Naruto's birth. Naruto is 15-16. Kisame is 32. Zabuza and Kakashi are about 29-30. 
Now tell me, how old does Kisame look in the flashback.................


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres thousands of panels blackening out tobi's eye design when theres a close up of his eye.
> And how exactly does your link disprove it?


There's an exploding tag slipping through him even though he only has a normal sharingan active.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres thousands of panels blackening out tobi's eye design when theres a close up of his eye.
> And how exactly does your link disprove it?



Please look at the top left panel very closely.


----------



## NW (Aug 9, 2012)

joshhookway said:
			
		

> Can someone link the face with Konan and with Sasuke together?


Sasuke: extends in the original

Konan: extends in the original

Hope this is what you meant.


----------



## Talis (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Please look at the top left panel very closely.


Doesnt prove a lot comapred to this;
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed (Tobi's hand is in front of his eye, was it that neccesary? 
No, Kishi keeps hiding his MS desgin, theres even more of these blackened eye on other chapters no idea where.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Doesnt prove a lot comapred to this;
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed (Tobi's hand is in front of his eye, was it that neccesary?
> No, Kishi keeps hiding his MS desgin, theres even more of these blackened eye on other chapters no idea where.



What you are doing right now is denying. I clearly just proved a major part of your Tobito theory wrong. The pages you provided didn't prove anything. If Kishi WAS trying to hide his MS, then why didn't he do it in the panel I showed you? Because he doesn't even *have* an MS.

He was clearly intangible in that panel and paper bombs were slipping through him.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 9, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> There's an exploding tag slipping through him even though he only has a normal sharingan active.





HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Please look at the top left panel very closely.


And the aura of Itachi's partially materialized Susanoo, while gradually dissipating from that point on, was still around him as he reverted to the normal Sharingan back when he first confronted Kabuto in Chapter 577.

I'd chalk it up to the way his Jikuukan Idou functions, or even a small oversight by the author. Only the Mangekyou Sharingan has demonstrated the ability to cast techniques of this nature, and I don't think it's coincidental that Tobi's Sharingan is almost always hidden as he uses it.


----------



## Talis (Aug 9, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> What you are doing right now is denying. I clearly just proved a major part of your Tobito theory wrong. The pages you provided didn't prove anything. If Kishi WAS trying to hide his MS, then why didn't he do it in the panel I showed you? Because he doesn't even *have* an MS.
> 
> He was clearly intangible in that panel and paper bombs were slipping through him.


Just what are you trying to do anyways lol, theres no way a regular Sharingan posses an unique ability.

_Can't discuss that here yet... -*SaiST*_


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 9, 2012)

SaiST said:


> And the aura of Itachi's partially materialized Susanoo, while gradually dissipating from that point on, was still around him as he reverted to the normal Sharingan back when he first confronted Kabuto in Chapter 577.


Oh, you're right! His eyes are normal sharingan there. I completely forgot about that. In that case I'm fairly sure that it's just how his jutsu functions then. I doubt Kishi would forget to make it hidden if it's important to Tobi's identity.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 9, 2012)

You're completely right, Tobi just has a super advanced S/T jutsu that originates from his base 3 tomoe sharingan eye. But has nothing to do with the eye at all. And every 3 tomoe sharingan has the potential to do such a jutsu that lets you fight multiple top tier fighters at once without getting majorly hit..........................Not like there's an advancement or anything that provides the user with a special and unique jutsu or anything. But no, let's have the base sharingan give him the special powers, screw the MS.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 10, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> For starters you got that from the wiki, which is anything but 100% accurate.
> Second we don't know WHEN the bloody mist began and WHY. You can speculate all you want, and they can be all possible, but we just don't know and we won't know until we get the timeline straightened out on tobi and madara and when madara died and who tobi is.
> Bloody mist could have arose during the 3rd Mizukages reign. It also could have begun during the 4th mizukages (yagura's) reign and when he began to get controlled, the manipulator decided to just continue the practices or spur them on. The bloody mist DIDNT end with Zabuza killing his classmates. Even though THAT practice ended, It continued for some time after as Haku was persecuted and watched as his dad killed his mom for example. And for how long yagura was manipulated for is unknown as well as how he died which freed the yonbi.
> Figuring out the circumstances of the 'bloody mist' is all speculation and none of which is fact. We just don't know. Saying Yagura "seems like a good guy" isn't a valid excuse.
> ...



No we have enough information about this. Kisame is 32 years old now and when he met long haired man he was about 18-20(assumption) so it was after Naruto's birth. At worst, it was same time with Naruto's birth.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 10, 2012)

Actually, upon further reflection, there is some pretty strong evidence that Tobi is using Obito's body. However there is also strong evidence that it is not actually Obito himself in that body.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 10, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> No we have enough information about this. Kisame is 32 years old now and when he met long haired man he was about 18-20(assumption) so it was after Naruto's birth. At worst, it was same time with Naruto's birth.



that's what i fucking said


----------



## Obito (Aug 10, 2012)

Obito corrupted by darkness since his remains weren't retrieved and due to regret from saving Kakashi.

His body was augmented with Zetsu DNA, and now he is Tobito. .


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> What you are doing right now is denying. I clearly just proved a major part of your Tobito theory wrong. The pages you provided didn't prove anything. If Kishi WAS trying to hide his MS, then why didn't he do it in the panel I showed you? Because he doesn't even *have* an MS.
> 
> He was clearly intangible in that panel and paper bombs were slipping through him.



It's not denial.  

1. It's not like the manga couldn't have made an mistake and been corrected like Kakashi with the wrong headband on.
2. We don't know if he has to use MS to use intang or has to maintain the pattern as we don't know how long he's been intang in that panel.
3. There are like 50 panels blacked out and one where it's not.  Author's direction clearly is that we're not supposed to see his eye while he uses S/T.
4. Base sharingan have never shown ninjutsu like effects.
4.  Tobi and Kakashi using Obito's eye is extremely likely and it's unlikely that Kakashi isn't countering MS technique with MS technique.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 10, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> that's what i fucking said



I was supporting what you said, are you aware of it?


----------



## Easley (Aug 10, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Oh, you're right! His eyes are normal sharingan there. I completely forgot about that. In that case I'm fairly sure that it's just how his jutsu functions then. I doubt Kishi would forget to make it hidden if it's important to Tobi's identity.


The way Tobi spams his teleport/intangibility I doubt regular MS is sufficient. He'd be already blind in that eye. It must be EMS.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> 1) how can Kagami have ties to Senju Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders Koharu and Homura and NOT be involved somehow?
> 
> 2) is it a coincidence that Tobi can be derived from his sensei's name *Tobi*rama? i dont know, but its a hint
> 
> ...





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Circumstantial evidence is still evidence.
> 
> 7 misconceived "hints" for Kagami compared to the over 9000 hints for Obito.



circumstantial evidence = hints... same thing



> Prove how he was involved.



LOL i dont need to prove anything, they are just a hints



> It's not a hint. It's complete coincidence. Tobi and Tobirama are comprised of completely different Japanese characters.



i dont think its a coincidence



> Why would Tobirama teach anything to an Uchiha?



when did i say anything about Tobirama teaching anything???... the fact that Tobi and Tobirama are both masters of Jikukan is a hint that they could have a connection



> You call that an introduction?
> 
> And even if it was, what does it matter?



it matters because it was only after Danzo?s death that Tobi took more assertive action... "stepping out of the shadows" as it were



> How do you know they still have a role to play? Did Kishi tell you? Look who's making assumptions now... -.-'



with the amount of assumptions you have made with Obito... i dont see what the problem is with me making some assumptions -.-'



> izuna fits the timeline. So does Setsuna. And Torifu. And a Hriuzen clone. My point is, how is this a hint to Kagami?
> 
> Lol at 16 year old fodder Kagami fighting a Rikudou level Kage.
> 
> Do you even think these through?



Torifu isnt even Uchiha, but we all know you are willing to say anything at this point... plus Kagami wasnt fodder if he was on Tobirama?s personal squad

the hint applies to Kagami because the timeline fits *perfectly*... why cant you accept that? and so what if the hint also applies to Setsuna and Izuna? it doesnt mean it cant apply to Kagami as well



> Again, this doesn't specifically hint at Kagami.



it specifically hints that Tobi has knowledge that only someone as old as Kagami would have



> Legitimate? They aren't even hints.



XD LOL... of course they are hints, if you want to say none of my Kagami hints are valid then none of your Obito hints are valid either

but the fact that you are saying the hints arent even legitimate just shows how biased you have become... its all circumstantial so you cant "prove" me wrong



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> In favor of the Kagami theorists(can't believe I'm doing this), Tobi's hair actually does seem to be curly like Kagami's in some panels:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


----------



## son_michael (Aug 10, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Actually, upon further reflection, there is some pretty strong evidence that Tobi is using Obito's body. However there is also strong evidence that it is not actually Obito himself in that body.





please do tell



do tell


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't think Tobi is drawn old enough to be Kagami.  Look at all the elderly men in the manga or even just team Tobirama flash back 16 years ago vs. panels of Danzo's death.  All of the men on it faces are defleshed around the cheek bones while older.  Younger characters have more egg shaped faces or cheek bone shaped like eggs to the chin.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 10, 2012)

^Tobi had wrinkles on his cheeks when he showed his face to Sasuke, the kind Mifune has... Tobi also has knowledge only someone really old would have

EDIT: 


Easley said:


> The way Tobi spams his teleport/intangibility I doubt regular MS is sufficient. He'd be already blind in that eye. It must be EMS.



thats what im thinking as well

Tobi/Kagami retrieved his son's Sharingan (Obito) unlocked the MS and then proceeded to awaken the EMS, in 1 eye


----------



## Escargon (Aug 10, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol funny thing is I was randomly on that panel with Itachi's eyes looking for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry to break your Tobito theory but let me give you a hint: samurai.



Hossaim said:


> Something a little interesting about the Kagami theory.
> 
> His mentor seemed to be Tobirama.
> 
> ...



Nah hes obviously Hiruzen SaruTOBI.

And yeah, funny thing is that Madara called Tobi *him* and said Izuna is dead..



HakuGaara said:


> Actually, upon further reflection, there is some pretty strong evidence that Tobi is using Obito's body. However there is also strong evidence that it is not actually Obito himself in that body.



Whats the evidence of Tobi using Obitos body then? The Zetsugoop of Tobis body got explained later on with the clones.



Raventhal said:


> I don't think Tobi is drawn old enough to be Kagami.  Look at all the elderly men in the manga or even just team Tobirama flash back 16 years ago vs. panels of Danzo's death.  All of the men on it faces are defleshed around the cheek bones while older.  Younger characters have more egg shaped faces or cheek bone shaped like eggs to the chin.



Again, hint: A guy using rubberjutsus.

A samurai.

Wonder what kind of arguments i will get now:<


----------



## Easley (Aug 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ^Tobi had wrinkles on his cheeks when he showed his face to Sasuke, the kind Mifune has... Tobi also has knowledge only someone really old would have
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


yeah, the lines under his eye are remarkably similar to Mifune's.

Kagami's age/experience and being on the same team as Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzou, makes him credible.

Kishi made a big deal of MS blindness over time/with use, so if Tobi is using the Mangekyou, EMS seems likely. Obito's original eye would not be enough. 

I do expect a crazy twist at this point. Kishi's revelations are never just simple "Tobi is...."  there's always more shit going on.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 10, 2012)

Easley said:


> yeah, the lines under his eye are remarkably similar to Mifune's.
> 
> Kagami's age/experience and being on the same team as Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzou, makes him credible.
> 
> ...



If it is Kagami, how come hes made of Zetsu? Im not disagreeing with you here, but..

Theres Sasori (whole body being replacined with a doll, theres Oro(changes bodies), theres splited Muu(you know). 

So why is Tobi made of Zetsugoop if its not a clone? I mean Kishi didnt just pull out some shit like Zetsu taking peoples DNA to shift into them without a reason.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 10, 2012)

im starting to imagine if tobi is really "no one" like, he is the nothing.

after we got juubi as a sort of creation god, we should have the counterpart that represents darkness and void. And Tobi's traits all fit Amatsu Mikaboshi...


----------



## Easley (Aug 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> If it is Kagami, how come he have Zetsugoop? I mean, its clone materials.
> 
> I am not disagreeing with you at all but if someone like Obito gets crushed, he could like have made his own body.
> 
> Theres Sasori, theres Oro, theres splited Muu. So Tobi is a clone?


oh, I don't think Tobi is Kagami, I'm just considering the theory. I do believe Tobi is an old/experienced person though. Zetsu goo supports Madara/Hashirama clone if anything. Obito making a new body means that his head is all that's left of him!


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> If it is Kagami, how come hes made of Zetsu? Im not disagreeing with you here, but..
> 
> Theres Sasori (whole body being replacined with a doll, theres Oro(changes bodies), theres splited Muu(you know).
> 
> So why is Tobi made of Zetsugoop if its not a clone? I mean Kishi didnt just pull out some shit like Zetsu taking peoples DNA to shift into them without a reason.


It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.

Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm fairly sure that whoever Tobi is, it's not Kagami. Kagami's eyelid line extends beyond his eye quite a bit. Tobi's has never done that any of the times we've seen that part of his face.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 10, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.
> 
> Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.



Oh yeah totally forgot about it. 

Yet another theory gone.

And "replacined" i blame my iPhone


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> LOL i dont need to prove anything, they are just a hints


You at the very least need to prove that they're hints.





> i dont think its a coincidence


Actually, it is. Tobirama's name is in different Japanese characters so it wouldn't make any sense. Unless Kagami took the name, and took the Tobi part out of the spoken form for the word, then put the Japanese characters for it, in order to better disguise himself, this way, he'd be able to name himself after Tobirama without anyone actually knowing.

But that's just speculation. Although, if he is Kagami, this would be the only logical explanation for his name. his actually seems to drag the theory down imo, because why would Kishi go through all the trouble of Japanese characters and changing and shit just for his name? It would also be an unnecessary explanation.





> when did i say anything about Tobirama teaching anything???... the fact that Tobi and Tobirama are both masters of Jikukan is a hint that they could have a connection


I guess you're right on this one. Minato remarked that Tobi's S/T surpassed both his and the 2nd's, so I don't see any other reason to bring that up, unless Kishi just wanted to say that to get it out there. 





> it matters because it was only after Danzo’s death that Tobi took more assertive action... "stepping out of the shadows" as it were


Well, it's interesting. Although it may just be coincidence.





> with the amount of assumptions you have made with Obito... i dont see what the problem is with me making some assumptions -.-'


You're making assumptions, however, without any ground. At least for this particular part.





> Torifu isnt even Uchiha, but we all know you are willing to say anything at this point... plus Kagami wasnt fodder if he was on Tobirama’s personal squad


Maybe I went a little foo far with Torifu. But, I didn't mean fodder as in weak, more like seemingly irrelevant to the story.



> the hint applies to Kagami because the timeline fits *perfectly*... why cant you accept that? and so what if the hint also applies to Setsuna and Izuna? it doesnt mean it cant apply to Kagami as well


Point taken.





> it specifically hints that Tobi has knowledge that only someone as old as Kagami would have


I never realy thought that much of it. But Tobi knowing Aburame Shikuro definitely hints at old age.





> XD LOL... of course they are hints, if you want to say none of my Kagami hints are valid then none of your Obito hints are valid either


They don't seem to be straight out hints though, unlike Obito. Though I guess, if he actually is Kagami, then giving only vague hints would be a way to decrease suspicion.



> but the fact that you are saying the hints arent even legitimate just shows how biased you have become... its all circumstantial so you cant "prove" me wrong


I wasn't being biased. They honestly didn't seem like hints at first. Though, upon further explanation of them they do seem to be noteworthy.



........



jacamo said:


> ^Tobi had wrinkles on his cheeks when he showed his face to Sasuke, the kind Mifune has... Tobi also has knowledge only someone really old would have


Unless maybe he studied up on things. You need to know your shit if you're gonna attempt to take over the world.

But, Raventhal has a point about not looking how old people are typically depicted. Well, anyway, Mifune's wrinkles are all together and are wearing stretched looking skin that goes to about his nose, Tobi's "wrinkles" are uneven and cover his whole left side of his face.






> Tobi/Kagami retrieved his son's Sharingan (Obito) unlocked the MS and then proceeded to awaken the EMS, in 1 eye


How would he awaken EMS unless he stole his own brother's eye? I don't think you get anything by stealing your child's eye, unless it's like Eternal Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan or something.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.
> 
> Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.


is it confirmed that he uses those? It seems much more likely that he uses Zetsu goo.



Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm fairly sure that whoever Tobi is, it's not Kagami. Kagami's eyelid line extends beyond his eye quite a bit. Tobi's has never done that any of the times we've seen that part of his face.


This could possibly rule him out but remember, eyelids can stretch a little depending on the expression.



Escargon said:


> Oh yeah totally forgot about it.
> 
> Yet another theory gone.
> 
> And "replacined" i blame my iPhone


It's not even confirmed. I honestly don't see where people get this from. I don't even think that the Hashirama tree's arms are the same color as the Zetsu goo that Tobi's arms are made of. You can even see Tobi replacing his arm in chapter 486 in front of this giant mass of Zetsu goo.

I rest my case.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Sorry to break your Tobito theory but let me give you a hint: samurai.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You got me there.  But the angles and length of Tobi's lines they're not uniformed.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 10, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.
> 
> Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.



We call it
Goop because of how it appeared after minato injured him.
And it comes from a plant. Zetsu is a body that's essentially a plant. Not
Crazy to put 2 and 2 together.


----------



## Duckitology (Aug 10, 2012)

IT MUST BE AN EXPERIMENT..
IT HAS TO BE
that fucker


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

Duckitology said:
			
		

> IT MUST BE AN EXPERIMENT..
> IT HAS TO BE
> that fucker


Why?

I don't see why people believe this. First of all, Tobi has to be an actual person for the reveal to be climactic.

Second of all, it would be extremely anti-climactic for the subject of all this mystery AND for the final/main villain of the series to be a fucking lab experiment.

Instead of saying "ZOMFG it has to be an experiment!", actually give some reasons for why you believe this.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

I don't believe he's a pure experiment or clone.  He could be Zetsu'd out but he's certainly a person IMO.  There are too many hints that he's a person.


----------



## nin89 (Aug 10, 2012)

this defin won't be the case but would look very surprised if Tobi turns out to be Hashima.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How would he awaken EMS unless he stole his own brother's eye? I don't think you get anything by stealing your child's eye, unless it's like Eternal Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan or something.


To clarify, exchanging Mangekyou Sharingan with immediate family increases the likelihood of compatibility. It doesn't necessarily have to be a sibling, but that's what's worked for the only known successful attempts thus far.

Still, there's a small chance of an Uchiha being able to acquire an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by exchanging their Mangekyou Sharingan with one belonging to another that's not a part of their immediate family. I suppose the best example I can provide would be Orochimaru's integration of Hashirama's genetic material into the body of Yamato, who was the only survivor of this procedure among 60 children.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

What does everyone think of the theory that Madara gave Nagato his real eyes and not Izuna's eyes in his head?  

It would make sense with Nagato's awakening panels and the fact that Madara supposedly gave Nagato his eyes.



SaiST said:


> To clarify, exchanging Mangekyou Sharingan with immediate family increases the likelihood of compatibility. It doesn't necessarily have to be a sibling, but that's what's worked for the only known successful attempts thus far.
> 
> Still, there's a small chance of an Uchiha being able to acquire an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by exchanging their Mangekyou Sharingan with one belonging to another that's not a part of their immediate family. I suppose the best example I can provide would be Orochimaru's integration of Hashirama's genetic material into the body of Yamato, who was the only survivor of this procedure among 60 children.



Tobi would have a lot of eyes to try to obtain EMS with wouldn't he?


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 10, 2012)

This is really stupid now, people are trying to disprove theories by looking at eyelids. 

You think that is going to prove to/convince anyone that it's not a certain character?

Silly thread, I can't wait to the reveal so the reasons as to why it's Tobi are much different then the reasons in this thread


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

SaiST said:
			
		

> To clarify, exchanging Mangekyou Sharingan with immediate family increases the likelihood of compatibility. It doesn't necessarily have to be a sibling, but that's what's worked for the only known successful attempts thus far.
> 
> Still, there's a small chance of an Uchiha being able to acquire an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by exchanging their Mangekyou Sharingan with one belonging to another that's not a part of their immediate family. I suppose the best example I can provide would be Orochimaru's integration of Hashirama's genetic material into the body of Yamato, who was the only survivor of this procedure among 60 children.


Are you sure? I don't remember anything ever suggesting that it would work like that.



			
				thebaxman said:
			
		

> This is really stupid now, people are trying to disprove theories by looking at eyelids.
> 
> You think that is going to prove to/convince anyone that it's not a certain character?
> 
> Silly thread, I can't wait to the reveal so the reasons as to why it's Tobi are much different then the reasons in this thread


Of course they're not huge reasons, but they are still reasons. It's like me telling you that I got attacked by a giraffe last night and you bring me your dog and say that he was the culprit. Okay, maybe not quite that extreme, but you get the idea.

Of course appearances matter. Don't you think it would be kind of stupid if we waited this long and didn't recognize Tobi's face?

Of course, I agree that eyelid lines are a silly thing to go on out of everything we have to use, but they still hold some significance.


----------



## Mateush (Aug 10, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.
> 
> Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.



Well, but Zetsu also has Hashirama's cells. I'm pretty sure Zetsu and Tobi's body parts all are connected to the Hashirama clone.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Are you sure? I don't remember anything ever suggesting that it would work like that.


 You don't know me very well, it seems.

Anyways... To begin with, what do you know of the prerequisites of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 10, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm fairly sure that whoever Tobi is, it's not Kagami. Kagami's eyelid line extends beyond his eye quite a bit. Tobi's has never done that any of the times we've seen that part of his face.



Please stop relying on facial features to prove a theory wrong. It won't do you any good.

The fact that people are studying eyelids and other face features here is ridiculous. I know appearance matters, but you're looking way too deep into it.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Second of all, it would be extremely anti-climactic for the subject of all this mystery AND for the *final*/main villain of the series to be a fucking lab experiment.



Tobi is not the final villain.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> It's not really Zetsu's goop; they seem to be replacement parts from the mindless Hashirama clone.
> 
> Anyways, using the spare limbs gets him closer to being like Rikudō Sennin and thus a better potential host for Rinnegan and Jūbi, allows him access to certain techniques (_Izanagi_), and possibly grants him extended life and apparent youth.



It can still be Zetsu goop, though. After all, Zetsu is made of Hashirama's DNA. And black Zetsu is made of Madara's DNA.



Easley said:


> The way Tobi spams his teleport/intangibility I doubt regular MS is sufficient. He'd be already blind in that eye. It must be EMS.



I don't think it's possible to get the EMS in one eye. You need two eyes to awaken it.


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

SaiST said:
			
		

> You don't know me very well, it seems.


No, not really.



> Anyways... To begin with, what do you know of the prerequisites of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan?


If I remember correctly, Itachi said something like "For years, the Uchiha have killed their best friends to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, and stole the eyes of their siblings to make it's power permanent!"

So 



			
				HeLLzRoLLinG said:
			
		

> Please stop relying on facial features to prove a theory wrong. It won't do you any good.
> 
> The fact that people are studying eyelids and other face features here is ridiculous. I know appearance matters, but you're looking way too deep into it.


Facial features are a key determining factor on whether a character could be Tobi or not. Combined, of course, with circumstantial evidence.



> Tobi is not the final villain.


.......

Ahahahahahahahaha!!!!!




> It can still be Zetsu goop, though. After all, Zetsu is made of Hashirama's DNA. *And black Zetsu is made of Madara's DNA.*


That's unconfirmed.



> I don't think it's possible to get the EMS in one eye. You need two eyes to awaken it.


Why? Was this stated in the manga?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why? Was this stated in the manga?



I'm not entirely sure. But common sense tells you that you do need a pair of eyes to awaken the EMS.


----------



## Talis (Aug 10, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm not entirely sure. But common sense tells you that you do need a pair of eyes to awaken the EMS.


But common sense says that you can awaken the MS in 1 eye.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If I remember correctly, Itachi said something like "For years, the Uchiha have killed their best friends to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, and stole the eyes of their siblings to make it's power permanent!"
> 
> So



*Spoiler*: _From Uchiha Izuna's profile in the 3rd Databook_ 



_"There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou Sharingan from a member of the clan..."_



*Spoiler*: _From the Uchiha Clan's Info File, also in the 3rd Databook_ 



_"The tighter the blood ties are [between "donor" and] receiver, the better it is for compatibility. Siblings, for example."_


So, siblings and other immediate family offered the highest chances of success, but the possibility of an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan's creation being accomplished through an exchange between Uchiha with loose blood ties was still left open—it'd just be one of those one in a million kind of things... And that would've been part of the reason there were so many failed attempts to reproduce Madara's power throughout the decades.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm not entirely sure. But common sense tells you that you do need a pair of eyes to awaken the EMS.


No indication that a pair is necessary.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 10, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Please stop relying on facial features to prove a theory wrong. It won't do you any good.
> 
> The fact that people are studying eyelids and other face features here is ridiculous. I know appearance matters, but you're looking way too deep into it.


If anything, I'd say that coming up with a reason to keep Kagami within the list of Tobi candidates that has to do with his expression, or how Kishi draws is looking deeper than eyeline comparisons, but that's just me. 




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This could possibly rule him out but remember, eyelids can stretch a little depending on the expression.


He doesn't just have eyelids like that in only that panel though.

mindless Hashirama clone
(Bottom left panel)

He definitely isn't making the same expression as before, yet his eyelids still stretch beyond his eyes. Arguably, it could be another expression that stretches them past his eyes, but I seriously doubt it.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 10, 2012)

I guess I was wrong about having a pair of eyes to awaken the EMS.

Kakashi tells us that it's possible to awaken the MS in one eye. So, if you you go blind in that eye, you can replace that eye with another MS to awaken the EMS.

lol, I proved myself wrong. Stupid me.


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

> From Uchiha Izuna's profile in the 3rd Databook:
> "There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou Sharingan from a member of the clan..."
> From the Uchiha Clan's Info File, also in the 3rd Databook:
> "The tighter the blood ties are [between "donor" and] receiver, the better it is for compatibility. Siblings, for example."
> So, siblings and other immediate family offered the highest chances of success, but the possibility of an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan's creation being accomplished through an exchange between Uchiha with loose blood ties was still left open?it'd just be one of those one in a million kind of things... And that would've been part of the reason there were so many failed attempts to reproduce Madara's power throughout the decades.


o.O

Okay, then. Ya proved me wrong.



			
				Menacing Eyes said:
			
		

> He doesn't just have eyelids like that in only that panel though.
> 
> mindless Hashirama clone
> (Bottom left panel)
> ...


You've got a point.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


>



Thats just fking creepy in a good way.

I like it


----------



## Uchiha Q (Aug 10, 2012)

I think it's naruto from the future/alternate dimension


----------



## Escargon (Aug 10, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think it's naruto from the future/alternate dimension



That would be fking insane 

Dont you think Kisame would react when he met Naruto?


----------



## Talis (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If I remember correctly, Itachi said something like "For years, the Uchiha have killed their best friends to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, and stole the eyes of their siblings to make it's power permanent!"


What?
Where.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> What?
> Where.



He said that when he went all maniac on Sasuke about his eyes being his light and spares.


----------



## Talis (Aug 10, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> He said that when he went all maniac on Sasuke about his eyes being his light and spares.


A link should be fine.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> A link should be fine.



Don't have it off hand but look up Sasuke vs. Itachi.  It happens near when Itachi has the big open mouth crazy face when they are doing inception genjutsu.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 10, 2012)

son_michael said:


> please do tell
> 
> 
> 
> do tell




*Indicators that Tobi is using Obito's body:*

1. He does actually look the most like a grown up Obito if you put the pictures side by side.

2. He can counter Kamui. If Obito's body retained it's remaining sharingan (on his right side) then he would also have Kamui and can use that to counter Kakashi's.

3. The body's left eye socket is vacant (eye was given to Kakashi), which explains why he collects eyes and can take them out and put them in as he wishes. Handy to use Izanagi when you can discard the blind eye and pop another one in and now he's using it to hold the rinnegan.

4. He's using Zetsu material to keep his body whole and mobile. It's important to note that during his fight with Torune, He was able to disconnect his right arm (which seems to be made entirely of Zetsu stuff with no blood and is the same side that was crushed by the boulder) with seemingly no discomfort at all and reattach a new one using the same material. However, During his fight with Minato, he got his left arm (the side that wasn't crushed) hurt and he was holding that arm like he was in pain. Also, unlike the other arm there was both Zetsu stuff and blood dripping from the wound.


*Indicators that Tobi is not Obito and only using his body:*

1. Tobi being Obito would mean he gave Nagato the rinnegan before he was even born, which makes no sense obviously. Nagato was around the same age as Obito was during Kakashi Gaiden. However, this was before he got trained by Jiraiya, which was *before* Jiraiya trained Minato, which itself was *BEFORE* Minato trained Kakashi and Obito. So there is a huuuuuge time gap there. Tobi had to be inhabiting a different body at that point.

It's possible that when he told Konan this he was still pretending to be Madara and it was Madara that gave Nagato the rinnegan but there would be no reason for Obito to do this since it was just him and Konan, Konan most likely didn't even know Who Obito was and Konan was going to die then anyway.

2. The unlikelihood of Obito's survival. He was supposed to be dead. His body being inhabited by Tobi is one thing but Obito somehow willing himself back to life and freeing himself from the boulder and cave-in after he had accepted his fate just doesn't seem very plausible...at all actually.

3. The personality 180. He led a fairly happy life full of dreams and a member of the then illustrious Uchiha clan. The only unhappiness he seemed to have was Kakashi teasing him. Even though he died at an early age, it wasn't before he reconciled his differences with Kakashi and was at peace with his fate. I find it *extremely* hard to believe that there was any kind of hate or spite inside of him that could have been used by someone to corrupt him. That's just completely and utterly unrealistic. 

4. Tobi is continually avoiding being identified as anyone, from hiding his features to changing names to referring to himself as 'no one'. If it was a simple matter of Tobi being Obito then there would be no reason for such a compulsion.

5. Madara and Tobi know of each other. Saying that Madara knows Obito is like saying Hashirama knows Obito...not very likely since he most likely died before Obito was born.


So in conclusion, my current stance on the matter right now is that Tobi is *not* Obito but *is* using his body for whatever strange reason.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're only deriving his claims of being very old from his claims of being Madara, which we know he is not. And no. There is only one Tobi.
> 
> If Tobi's claims of giving Nagato the Rinnegan are true, he's not Obito. If they aren't, that means Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan and not Tobi. Just because Madara does something Tobi claimed to have done, doesn't mean he's tobi. it just means that tobi claimed something that Madara did.



In most of my post in this thread I assume Obito is Tobi. I don't think Tobi literately is 2 different persons. I'm sorry for wording myself this way, but you obviously didn't get my last explanation of what I meant. What I mean by the "other" Tobi is the person Tobi is impersonating, Madara. Still, if it's not Obito there are other possibilities. I guess that's the reason I differ between 'em this way. Also because Tobito theory obviously relies on a young Tobi.



> Yes, but do we have any prof that he is a reliable narrator? No.In fact, there is proof that he is an unreliably narrator. Just because his claims would be more trustworthy if he was Izuna doesn't mean they are.
> 
> We don't know if he was lying or not, so therefore it is currently neither canon OR non-canon.
> 
> ...



I got no problems with it. But if you expect other people to accept your theory based on this, you should be open minded towards other possibilities I think. Maybe Madara think Izuna is dead, when Izuna in fact faked his death? Later he contected Madara as Tobi, thus Madara still don't know who Tobi is. Or Madara simply lied about Izuna being dead?

Everything in the manga is canon. We just don't know if those "lies" are canon-lies yet.

I don't think anyone who reads Naruto in, lets say, 20 years from now, will wonder if everything Tobi says are lies. There are obvious lies the author, but assuming every statement as truth/lie, is bad reading



> Because Tobi saying "Madara grew this from tissue he stole during their battle" wouldn't give away the Edo Madara twist.



He said he fought him (our battle). In all the translations I've read he said, he, as in himself, fought him. Are there other translations I've missed?
If not, this would be a valid reason to conclude he fought Hashirama. There are no obvious reason for the reader to assume he lies here.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 10, 2012)

If Madara literally gave Nagato his old blind MS sharingans or random sharingans in an experiment to waken the Rinnegan it's still possible for Tobi to be Obito.  It just means Madara awakened his Rinnegan after Nagato.  It's kind of supported by the fact that Nagato remembers awakening his Rinnegan.  If Tobi is Obito obviously Nagato's eyes are not likely Izuna's(Madara's EMS/Rinnegan set).


----------



## SaiST (Aug 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> A link should be fine.


Chapter 386...


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> In most of my post in this thread I assume Obito is Tobi. I don't think Tobi literately is 2 different persons. I'm sorry for wording myself this way, but you obviously didn't get my last explanation of what I meant. What I mean by the "other" Tobi is the person Tobi is impersonating, Madara. Still, if it's not Obito there are other possibilities. I guess that's the reason I differ between 'em this way. Also because Tobito theory obviously relies on a young Tobi.


Still confused but I think I think I get the gist of it.





> I got no problems with it. But if you expect other people to accept your theory based on this, you should be open minded towards other possibilities I think. Maybe Madara think Izuna is dead, when Izuna in fact faked his death? Later he contacted Madara as Tobi, thus Madara still don't know who Tobi is. Or Madara simply lied about Izuna being dead?


You're saying uchiha Madara wouldn't recognize tobi as his own brother? Surely he would have recognized him by his voice, and he also would have demanded for Tobi to take his mask off. And why would Izuna fake his death if he could just operate with Madara without keeping a big ass secret from him?

Also, why would Madara lie about izuna's death? Everything he said up until that point was the truth and you expect him to just start lying.



> Everything in the manga is canon. We just don't know if those "lies" are canon-lies yet.


Well, obviously everything in the manga is canon.

of course we don't know if the lies are canon yet, but we also don't know if they're non-canon. So, it's natural and logical to speculate on them.



> I don't think anyone who reads Naruto in, lets say, 20 years from now, will wonder if everything Tobi says are lies.


What the hell does _that_ have to do with anything. I'm not even sure what you meant by that.



> There are obvious lies the author, but assuming every statement as truth/lie, is bad reading


It's not bad reading. It's called reading comprehension. Tobi has been shown to be a huge liar, so it's only natural to question his claims, especially since he made said claims while posing as Uchiha Madara. To blatantly accept everything he says as truth when he's a known liar and we have seen neither him nor Madara do such actions would be foolish.





> He said he fought him (our battle). In all the translations I've read he said, he, as in himself, fought him. Are there other translations I've missed?
> If not, this would be a valid reason to conclude he fought Hashirama. There are no obvious reason for the reader to assume he lies here.


There is an obvious reason to assume such. If we were supposed to think Tobi wasn't Madara at that time, how concealed would the secret really be if Tobi said "Yeah, Madara grew this from cells he stole during their battle"? Also, why would he need to fight Hashirama to steal his cells when Madara had already done so? Simple. He didn't.

Or Tobi could have just been being cheeky to Kabuto and keeping up his Madara act anyway. he obviously must hate his true identity, or at least want to forget about it due to horrid events that took place, so "being" Madara was all he had left.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 10, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> He said he fought him (our battle). In all the translations I've read he said, he, as in himself, fought him. Are there other translations I've missed?
> If not, this would be a valid reason to conclude he fought Hashirama. There are no obvious reason for the reader to assume he lies here.



How could Tobi have fought Hashirama? *Madara* was the one who fought him. Tobi was posing as Madara when he stated that. He was lying.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're saying uchiha Madara wouldn't recognize tobi as his own brother? Surely he would have recognized him by his voice, and he also would have demanded for Tobi to take his mask off. And why would Izuna fake his death if he could just operate with Madara without keeping a big ass secret from him?



Problems that can be explained?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a strong Izuna fan, but I guess one could speculate stuff up.



> Also, why would Madara lie about izuna's death? Everything he said up until that point was the truth and you expect him to just start lying.



There are no reason to believe he lies, but one thing I mentioned in my last post was that to take every statement a character makes as absolutes, is generally bad reading. They could be lying, trolling, fooling around etc. Madara lying was only an example of a possible explanation for desperate Izuna fans though. I don't think he lies.



> Well, obviously everything in the manga is canon.
> 
> of course we don't know if the lies are canon yet, but we also don't know if they're non-canon. So, it's natural and logical to speculate on them.
> 
> What the hell does _that_ have to do with anything. I'm not even sure what you meant by that.



I mean, how will people read Tobi.

When theorizing stuff like this, it helps to try and understand how the author tells the story.

One of the weakest points in the Tobito theory are those "lies" we've discussed. as Kishi presents the scenes, I see no obvious reason for the reader to suspect Tobi lies to Konan or Kabuto. Those are the best plot hole candidates if Tobi = Obito. But, of course, they could be made sense of later.



> It's not bad reading. It's called reading comprehension. Tobi has been shown to be a huge liar, so it's only natural to question his claims, especially since he made said claims while posing as Uchiha Madara. To blatantly accept everything he says as truth when he's a known liar and we have seen neither him nor Madara do such actions would be foolish.



What I meant as bad reading is to take everything a character says as lies/truth. We're in agreement.



> There is an obvious reason to assume such. If we were supposed to think Tobi wasn't Madara at that time, how concealed would the secret really be if Tobi said "Yeah, Madara grew this from cells he stole during their battle"? Also, why would he need to fight Hashirama to steal his cells when Madara had already done so? Simple. He didn't.



There are no reasons for the reader to believe Tobi lies. Kabuto already knows Tobi is not Madara. This will be plot holish if Tobito is true. Imagine if we already knew he wasn't Madara at that time. How odd would his statements be then? Even if Kishi wanted us to believe Tobi was Madara at that time, don't you think he also considered the whole picture?



> Or Tobi could have just been being cheeky to Kabuto and keeping up his Madara act anyway. he obviously must hate his true identity, or at least want to forget about it due to horrid events that took place, so "being" Madara was all he had left.



I've said earlier that his personality could explain why he lied here. It would also explained why he lied to Konan when there were absolutely no reasons to do so.
I still find it odd though.

1 other thing I thought of if Tobito is true:
Maybe he got his impersonation idea from Minato when he asked him: "Are you Uchiha Madara?". It would raise some questions (like, what about Madara himself?), but story-wize, it would work.

edit:


HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> How could Tobi have fought Hashirama? *Madara* was the one who fought him. Tobi was posing as Madara when he stated that. He was lying.



Hashirama didn't fight others than Madara?

Did you get the impression Tobi was lying here? As I've stated above, this could be looked upon as a plot hole if Tobito is true, and this sentence never is made sense of.


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> Problems that can be explained?
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not a strong Izuna fan, but I guess one could speculate stuff up.


How could anything I said in that part of the post possibly be explained?





> There are no reason to believe he lies, but one thing I mentioned in my last post was that to take every statement a character makes as absolutes, is generally bad reading. They could be lying, trolling, fooling around etc. Madara lying was only an example of a possible explanation for desperate Izuna fans though. I don't think he lies.


When a character has never been shown to be a liar then there is no reason to just randomly assume he is a liar just to fit your theory unless there is specifically something to suggest said character was lying. So no. It's not bad reading.





> I mean, how will people read Tobi.
> 
> When theorizing stuff like this, it helps to try and understand how the author tells the story.


True.



> One of the weakest points in the Tobito theory are those "lies" we've discussed. as Kishi presents the scenes, I see no obvious reason for the reader to suspect Tobi lies to Konan or Kabuto. Those are the best plot hole candidates if Tobi = Obito. But, of course, they could be made sense of later.


Of course there was no initial reason to suspect it. But now that we know Tobi's not Madara, there is reason to suspect it of being a lie.



> There are no reasons for the reader to believe Tobi lies. Kabuto already knows Tobi is not Madara. This will be plot holish if Tobito is true. Imagine if we already knew he wasn't Madara at that time. How odd would his statements be then? Even if Kishi wanted us to believe Tobi was Madara at that time, don't you think he also considered the whole picture?


Common sense would lead a reader to believe he was lying. Seriously, how else could that line have been phrased? But even if it wasn't that, I've already given a possible explanation for why he could have lied.


> 1 other thing I thought of if Tobito is true:
> Maybe he got his impersonation idea from Minato when he asked him: "Are you Uchiha Madara?". It would raise some questions (like, what about Madara himself?), but story-wize, it would work.


I don't think so. I'm 100% sure that Tobi and Madara planned for Tobi to pose as Madara, seeing as how Kabuto said that he was unsure if the "fake Madara" would act according to plan.



> Did you get the impression Tobi was lying here? As I've stated above, this could be looked upon as a plot hole if Tobito is true, and this sentence never is made sense of.


It's not a plothole. If there exists a possible explanation for it, then it's not a plothole because it doesn't contradict the plot.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ...
> 
> It's not a plothole. If there exists a possible explanation for it, then it's not a plothole because it doesn't contradict the plot.



Actually it is a plothole.
A plothole is not a plothole because it can not be explained at all but because it is not explained in the story itself. 

If look at the examples of this page you may find some points where you can find a explanaton for but these explainations are still not in its source material so they are still plotholes.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 10, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How could anything I said in that part of the post possibly be explained?



Easy if your dedicated enough:
_"You're saying uchiha Madara wouldn't recognize tobi as his own brother?"_
I think both you an I, and plenty of others, can think of noumerous ways of fooling your own kin. As skilled as Izuna is portrayed, I think it's very plausible.
_"Surely he would have recognized him by his voice..."_
Faking voices hard for a ninja? Tobi even faked his voice as Silly-Tobi.
_"...and he also would have demanded for Tobi to take his mask off."_
He may have demanded it, but why would Izunae give in. Maybe he had something to offer?
_"And why would Izuna fake his death if he could just operate with Madara without keeping a big ass secret from him?"_
Maybe Madara indeed did kill him, and this is dual goal for Izuna. Revenge against Madra while fulfilling his plan and acquiring peace. Brothers quarrels can get pretty deep.

This is stuff I invented right now.



> When a character has never been shown to be a liar then there is no reason to just randomly assume he is a liar just to fit your theory unless there is specifically something to suggest said character was lying. So no. It's not bad reading.
> ...
> Of course there was no initial reason to suspect it. But now that we know Tobi's not Madara, there is reason to suspect it of being a lie.
> 
> Common sense would lead a reader to believe he was lying. Seriously, how else could that line have been phrased? But even if it wasn't that, I've already given a possible explanation for why he could have lied.



A good author wouldn't simply think what state the reader would be in at the current stage, but also think of the bigger picture. In that regard I don't buy that the lack of information renders it ok. As the story is now, to me it looks like those "lies" are made to be lies to fit the Tobito theory.

He could have phrased it differently. He could simply have said: "It's Hashirama's cells that fuels this shit". Or something similar, and don't even mention anything about a battle.

Given the same information we have now I think common sense would be a big  wtf? It would rather question who Kabuto thinks Tobi is, bacause the reader would not think Kabuto to believe Tobi being Madara. And maybe that's the answer to the lie?

I'm not pointing a finger at you for bad reading if you're under the impression. I think we pretty much agree on the subject.



> It's not a plothole. If there exists a possible explanation for it, then it's not a plothole because it doesn't contradict the plot.



There being a possible explanation for something does not cover a plot hole. It has to be a "reasonable" explanation within certain frames. And I dind't say it was a plot hole, but it is a plot hole candidate if Tobi = Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 10, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> *Indicators that Tobi is using Obito's body:*
> 
> 1. He does actually look the most like a grown up Obito if you put the pictures side by side.
> 
> ...



  im glad you finally realized it 



> *Indicators that Tobi is not Obito and only using his body:*
> 
> 1. Tobi being Obito would mean he gave Nagato the rinnegan before he was even born, which makes no sense obviously. Nagato was around the same age as Obito was during Kakashi Gaiden. However, this was before he got trained by Jiraiya, which was *before* Jiraiya trained Minato, which itself was *BEFORE* Minato trained Kakashi and Obito. So there is a huuuuuge time gap there. Tobi had to be inhabiting a different body at that point.
> 
> It's possible that when he told Konan this he was still pretending to be Madara and it was Madara that gave Nagato the rinnegan but there would be no reason for Obito to do this since it was just him and Konan, Konan most likely didn't even know Who Obito was and Konan was going to die then anyway.



obviously the real Madara or some other tobi had to give Nagato the eye(unless obito is a time traveler lol). I think its safe to say the reason why tobi didn't lie to Konann is because kishi did not want us to think he wasn't Madara. 



> 2. The unlikelihood of Obito's survival. He was supposed to be dead. His body being inhabited by Tobi is one thing but Obito somehow willing himself back to life and freeing himself from the boulder and cave-in after he had accepted his fate just doesn't seem very plausible...at all actually.



not good enough

medical ninja's heal life threatening injuries quickly and the dead come back to life(sometimes in crazy ways)

obito's survival was not unlikely in the slightest. Kishi can say zetsu helped him etc 



> 3. The personality 180. He led a fairly happy life full of dreams and a member of the then illustrious Uchiha clan. The only unhappiness he seemed to have was Kakashi teasing him. Even though he died at an early age, it wasn't before he reconciled his differences with Kakashi and was at peace with his fate. I find it *extremely* hard to believe that there was any kind of hate or spite inside of him that could have been used by someone to corrupt him. That's just completely and utterly unrealistic.



sharingan genjutsu, lies mixed in with truth and the horror of a world filled with war might be just what the doctor ordered to turn a good boy into an apprentice.  



> 4. Tobi is continually avoiding being identified as anyone, from hiding his features to changing names to referring to himself as 'no one'. If it was a simple matter of Tobi being Obito then there would be no reason for such a compulsion.



Well I think its possible obito refuses to acknowledge himself as anyone because he hates his old self. If he can't be madara then he will be no one.

I believe its all psychological.




> 5. Madara and Tobi know of each other. Saying that Madara knows Obito is like saying Hashirama knows Obito...not very likely since he most likely died before Obito was born.



you and I know kishi can get around that. Space time dimensions, knowing someone by association. W/E works.




> So in conclusion, my current stance on the matter right now is that Tobi is *not* Obito but *is* using his body for whatever strange reason.



well my stance is, kishi can easily make tobi being obito in body and soul...make sense.


----------



## NW (Aug 10, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> Actually it is a plothole.
> A plothole is not a plothole because it can not be explained at all but because it is not explained in the story itself.
> 
> If look at the examples of this page you may find some points where you can find a explanaton for but these explainations are still not in its source material so they are still plotholes.


Good point, but if it is explained within the manga then it wouldn't be a plothole. And I have no doubt that Tobi's Madara complex will be explained.



gjoerulv said:


> Easy if your dedicated enough:
> _"You're saying uchiha Madara wouldn't recognize tobi as his own brother?"_
> I think both you an I, and plenty of others, can think of noumerous ways of fooling your own kin. As skilled as Izuna is portrayed, I think it's very plausible.


Sure it would work with any ol' person, but Madara Motherfucking Uchiha?! Nope, sorry.


> _"Surely he would have recognized him by his voice..."_
> Faking voices hard for a ninja? Tobi even faked his voice as Silly-Tobi.


Sounds way too convoluted.


> _"...and he also would have demanded for Tobi to take his mask off."_
> He may have demanded it, but why would Izunae give in. Maybe he had something to offer?


But why would he want to hide his identity from his own brother?


> _"And why would Izuna fake his death if he could just operate with Madara without keeping a big ass secret from him?"_
> Maybe Madara indeed did kill him, and this is dual goal for Izuna. Revenge against Madra while fulfilling his plan and acquiring peace. Brothers quarrels can get pretty deep.


Why would he kill his own brother? There's no way that taking his eyes would kill Izuna, and even if it did, then why is his death listed as "dying blindly in battle" in the databook? 



> This is stuff I invented right now.


That explains why it's not very strong.





> A good author wouldn't simply think what state the reader would be in at the current stage, but also think of the bigger picture. In that regard I don't buy that the lack of information renders it ok. As the story is now, to me it looks like those "lies" are made to be lies to fit the Tobito theory.


Yes, he's thinking of the bigger picture. That's why we weren't supposed to know Tobi was lying until it was revealed that he wasn't Madara.

And how do you know what the bigger picture is to think that lack of information doesn't render it ok? How do you know he wasn't lying? You don't. How do you know he was lying? You don't. Lack of information does make it ok because that's what allows all theories to be formed. We don't know if he was lying or not so it's perfectly fine to use it how we see fit in our theories. What's even worse is claiming them as 100% canon and trying to use them to prove and disprove other theories.



> He could have phrased it differently. He could simply have said: "It's Hashirama's cells that fuels this shit". Or something similar, and don't even mention anything about a battle.


True. However, I still stand by my other point.



> Given the same information we have now I think common sense would be a big  wtf? It would rather question who Kabuto thinks Tobi is, bacause the reader would not think Kabuto to believe Tobi being Madara. And maybe that's the answer to the lie?


What?




> There being a possible explanation for something does not cover a plot hole. It has to be a "reasonable" explanation within certain frames. And I dind't say it was a plot hole, but it is a plot hole candidate if Tobi = Obito.


That's not it at all. By possible, I meant reasonable as in something that can be explained within the plot. So, no. These are not even plot hole candidates if Tobi is Obito.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 11, 2012)

son_michael said:


> medical ninja's heal life threatening injuries quickly and the dead come back to life(sometimes in crazy ways)



That usually only applies to characters with an already heavy manga presence (Gaara for example). Obito was only featured in Kakashi Gaiden as a plot device for Kakashi's CD.  



son_michael said:


> obito's survival was not unlikely in the slightest. Kishi can say zetsu helped him etc



Except there's no logical motivation for Zetsu to do so. Why would he help some dead kid that he's never met and is buried under piles of rubble and debris? Why wouldn't he just eat him instead? Because Tobi told him not to.



son_michael said:


> sharingan genjutsu, lies mixed in with truth and the horror of a world filled with war might be just what the doctor ordered to turn a good boy into an apprentice.



No, that only works on people that had hate in them (see Nagato). Obito didn't have any. And even if something like that did work, who could have possibly done so and why would they even care to do so? Again, there's no logical motivation.



son_michael said:


> Well I think its possible obito refuses to acknowledge himself as anyone because he hates his old self. If he can't be madara then he will be no one.



Why would he hate his old self? He saved his friends and died a hero's death. He was perfectly at peace with his lot in life, his only regret is not telling Rin he loved her.



son_michael said:


> you and I know kishi can get around that. Space time dimensions, knowing someone by association. W/E works.
> 
> well my stance is, kishi can easily make tobi being obito in body and soul...make sense.



Saying Kishi *can* get around it isn't proof that it is *going* to happen. If you want people to believe that Tobi is Obito both body *and* soul then you need to provide evidence of such. So far you haven't presented any evidence whatsoever.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 11, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> That usually only applies to characters with an already heavy manga presence (Gaara for example). Obito was only featured in Kakashi Gaiden as a plot device for Kakashi's CD.



Don't call obito a plot device. You don't know what kishi has intended. You can call him a plot device if the manga ends and he is never brought up again.




> Except there's no logical motivation for Zetsu to do so. Why would he help some dead kid that he's never met and is buried under piles of rubble and debris? Why wouldn't he just eat him instead? Because Tobi told him not to.




there's no factual evidence but there sure as hell is room for speculation. I can easily come up with 2 reasons why zetsu was out looking for a new uchiha body.




> No, that only works on people that had hate in them (see Nagato). Obito didn't have any. And even if something like that did work, who could have possibly done so and why would they even care to do so? Again, there's no logical motivation.



Stop with these easily answered questions-_-   Again...there is NO EVIDENCE that would indicate a motivation but that doesn't mean its not there. It could very well exist in this manga and we have just yet to find it.

if speculation makes sense then its a possible outcome.





> Why would he hate his old self? He saved his friends and died a hero's death. He was perfectly at peace with his lot in life, his only regret is not telling Rin he loved her.



1. because he was brainwashed

2. because he was manipulated

3. because he's not the same happy person he was and he has been tarnished to the point of no return(similar to nagato)


He also might not hate himself. he may feel like infinite Tsukiyomi is actually everyone's salvation to stop all war(hence how he is a twisted version of Naruto type character)





> Saying Kishi *can* get around it isn't proof that it is *going* to happen. If you want people to believe that Tobi is Obito both body *and* soul then you need to provide evidence of such. So far you haven't presented any evidence whatsoever.




its not supposed to be proof. It's supposed to open your mind to the realization that it can be made to make sense.

I'm not arguing to you that obito is brainwashed etc. I simply offer it as a possible explanation and give you my reasoning why.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 11, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> Hashirama didn't fight others than Madara?
> 
> Did you get the impression Tobi was lying here? As I've stated above, this could be looked upon as a plot hole if Tobito is true, and this sentence never is made sense of.





We're not talking about who Hashirama fought in general. We're talking specifically about Hashirama's fight with Madara.

The fact that Tobi is not Madara means that Tobi (whoever he is) certainly did not fight Hashirama. Madara was the one who battled him. As I said before, Tobi was simply posing as Madara when he said that he engaged in a battle with Hashirama.

And Tobi's statement can be considered a plot hole if Tobi turns out to be Kagami or any other character too. Not only Tobito.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 11, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That explains why it's not very strong.



I guess you're not open for any other speculation that does not favour your own theory? Not suggesting anything, just the impression I get.



> Yes, he's thinking of the bigger picture. That's why we weren't supposed to know Tobi was lying until it was revealed that he wasn't Madara.
> 
> And how do you know what the bigger picture is to think that lack of information doesn't render it ok? How do you know he wasn't lying? You don't. How do you know he was lying? You don't. Lack of information does make it ok because that's what allows all theories to be formed. We don't know if he was lying or not so it's perfectly fine to use it how we see fit in our theories. What's even worse is claiming them as 100% canon and trying to use them to prove and disprove other theories.



I never claimed to know the whole picture. We were discussing whether it makes sense with the information we have now. You said a natural reaction would be to assume Tobi lied. I say it's still no reason to. If you insert all the information we have now before that conversation, and he said exactly the same, why assume he lies? If you agree Kishi knows the whole picture there is no reason to, at least not yet. We agree that it can be made sense of with additional information. But blatantly assume a lie is merely to defend Tobito.

Actually Tobi stating he fought Hashirama, if we knew for a fact he wasn't Madara, makes it more intresting.



> What?



See above.

Kabuto know Tobi isn't Madara. Does Kabuto know who Tobi is? Does Tobi know that Kabuto know who Tobi is? If Tobi knows that Kabuto thinks he (Tobi) is someone he is not, lying to him would make sense.



> That's not it at all. By possible, I meant reasonable as in something that can be explained within the plot. So, no. These are not even plot hole candidates if Tobi is Obito.



Then we agree on the issue. But that lie can still become a plot hole if Tobito is true and it's never made sense of. Maybe a minor one, just a few will notice, but still a hole in the story. But we agree that it may not be a plot hole in the end.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> We're not talking about who Hashirama fought in general. We're talking specifically about Hashirama's fight with Madara.
> 
> The fact that Tobi is not Madara means that Tobi (whoever he is) certainly did not fight Hashirama. Madara was the one who battled him. As I said before, Tobi was simply posing as Madara when he said that he engaged in a battle with Hashirama.



Lots of assumptions here. How can you possibly know noone else ever stole his cells during a fight. It can turn out Tobi is telling the truth.

And we're not necessarily talking about Madaras final fight with Hashirama. Kishi wants us to believe it at the time, true, but we are talking about Tobi's fight with Hashirama or why it makes sense to blatantly accept it as a lie. Consider the situation. Kabuto knows he isn't Madara. And Tobi knows it.



> And Tobi's statement can be considered a plot hole if Tobi turns out to be Kagami or any other character too. Not only Tobito.



Yes, obviously true. It depends who it is. If it is Obito you can't deny it needs an explanation, why he lied to Kabuto. We may indeed get one, I'm not denying it.


----------



## gloomygrim (Aug 11, 2012)

This theory of obito being tobi is fine its a theory, one im not interested in if im honest, but its what people seem to like ATM.

My only real down on that theory is why obito?  does any one actually like him?   he was fodder for kakashi's back story.  I just cant see why some one only mentioned in kakashi's back story would be the final villian. For obito to be tobi that would just spoil things a fodder as a super powered crazy badass isn't a great way of bringing something to an end.


----------



## NW (Aug 11, 2012)

gloomygrim said:
			
		

> This theory of obito being tobi is fine its a theory, one im not interested in if im honest, but its what people seem to like ATM.


Cuz it's awesome.



> My only real down on that theory is why obito? does any one actually like him? he was fodder for kakashi's back story. I just cant see why some one only mentioned in kakashi's back story would be the final villian. For obito to be tobi that would just spoil things a fodder as a super powered crazy badass isn't a great way of bringing something to an end.


Funny, because Obito's the only Tobi candidate that's _not_ fodder.


----------



## Kid (Aug 11, 2012)

Obito is actually fodder.


----------



## Talis (Aug 11, 2012)

Oh well, a little longer and this thread will remind in our history.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 11, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Don't call obito a plot device. You don't know what kishi has intended. You can call him a plot device if the manga ends and he is never brought up again.



I'm calling him by what has been shown in the manga. If people can't describe things as they've been shown until the manga is finished, then there might well not even be a forum.



son_michael said:


> there's no factual evidence but there sure as hell is room for speculation. I can easily come up with 2 reasons why zetsu was out looking for a new uchiha body.


 
Speculation is not the same as evidence. I can speculate that the next issue will be in shades of pink but there is no evidence that that will happen. And Zetsu looking for new Uchiha body wouldn't really fit the Tobito theory.



son_michael said:


> Stop with these easily answered questions-_-   Again...there is NO EVIDENCE that would indicate a motivation but that doesn't mean its not there. *It could very well exist in this manga and we have just yet to find it.*
> 
> if speculation makes sense then its a possible outcome.



If it exists then perhaps you should find it *before* you post baseless theories? Speculating about something without even knowing if evidence exists or not is pointless.



son_michael said:


> 1. because he was brainwashed
> 
> 2. because he was manipulated
> 
> 3. because he's not the same happy person he was and he has been tarnished to the point of no return(similar to nagato)



Assuming that does work on Obito, who would be the one doing it? Why would they even care to do it? There's too many questions you don't have the answers for for your theory to make any sense.



son_michael said:


> He also might not hate himself. he may feel like infinite Tsukiyomi is actually everyone's salvation to stop all war(hence how he is a twisted version of Naruto type character)



No, he specifically said that it was to remove individual identity, something Obito never touched upon.



son_michael said:


> its not supposed to be proof. It's supposed to open your mind to the realization that it can be made to make sense



Except you haven't shown how it makes sense, which is why it's not a sound theory.


----------



## Solo (Aug 11, 2012)

So it confirmed that Tobi has Obito's Eye or is that still speculations.


----------



## League (Aug 11, 2012)

I think he's Obito and furthermore i think the reason Kakashi has the  Mangekyō Sharingan is because Obito killed Rin.


----------



## gloomygrim (Aug 11, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Cuz it's awesome.
> 
> Funny, because Obito's the only Tobi candidate that's _not_ fodder.



How is obito not fodder?  only mentioned in a backstory,  died, not mentioned since.  The only reason obito was created was to fill in the blank of how kakashi got his sharingan.   

I have read page after page here and nothing any one says has persuaded me to lean towards the obito theory.   to many inconsistancies and most of what said is just circumstantial.  His sharingan is like kakashis, hell by that logic kankuro and shikamaru are brothers as they can both move people without touching them.  so thats a no.  

Some folk have said tobi has MS, when?  I aint seen it,  his sucky eye tech isnt an MS based tech just one he has.  another no.

He isnt to young to be obito,  wth,   how is he not to young,  for him to be onito he would have to have had some major training from some one, magically gained the ability to control the kyubi, learned a load of history, techs, how to bypass high level barriers, gone from a fodder who cant do jack to some one who can do all that is a bit far fetched.

last point,  why?  why would kishi write a pretty cool villian like tobi to then be revealed to be a bit of a now redundant characters history?  (lets face it kakashi isn't really a main character any more, he's just kinda there now, which sucks cuz i kinda liked him)

Also you say he is the only one who fits,  im pretty sure that those who think X is tobi will say X  is the only one who fits.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 11, 2012)

At this point I'm fairly certain that Tobi is Izuna Uchiha. It just makes perfect sense.

He has Obito's right Sharingan which he knew would be handy in the future. His Rinnegan eye is actually his original eye that Madara took from him earlier. The world thought he was dead, he could follow all the events from shadows.


He said to Konan that the Rinnegan eyes were originally and rightfully his. This would be true since Madara took his eyes and later they evolved into Rinnegan. Madara gave the eyes to Nagato and now Izuna took back what was his in the first place.
His connection with Madara would make perfect sense.
We never actually saw Izuna die. He was on the same level as Madara, how would he die so easily after just losing his eyes?
His knowledge would make sense. I mean how the hell would someone like Obito gain such knowledge? Izuna on the other hand led the Uchihan clan with Madara. He had knowledge of the tablet and all of the clan's secrets.
Tobi's and Izuna's databook height and weight are perfect match.
Tobi's fight with Minato makes sense. Obito would have been only a mere kid at that point and not nearly as powerful enough to even dream of fighting Minato. Izuna on the other hand was on the same level with Madara thus more than capable of fighting Minato.
His hair matches. It's spiky and deep black, but when long it's clearly a bit different from Madara's, which looks more lushy.
He wore the mask because world thought that Izuna had died. He also could take Madara's identity so he could start the war more easily.


----------



## Talis (Aug 11, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> At this point I'm fairly certain that Tobi is Izuna Uchiha. It just makes perfect sense.
> 
> He has Obito's right Sharingan which he knew would be handy in the future. His Rinnegan eye is actually his original eye that Madara took from him earlier. The world thought he was dead, he could follow all the events from shadows.
> 
> ...



Was in Madara's perspective, should have been obvious after Madara showed up with the Rinnegan.



JuubiSage said:


> His connection with Madara would make perfect sense.



Would make sense if he really is Izuna, if hes someone else it still makes sense right?



> We never actually saw Izuna die. He was on the same level as Madara, how would he die so easily after just losing his eyes?



He died in a war, current Madara even again confirmed Izuna being dead, with a sad face which means Izuna still is dead.



> His knowledge would make sense. I mean how the hell would someone like Obito gain such knowledge? Izuna on the other hand led the Uchihan clan with Madara. He had knowledge of the tablet and all of the clan's secrets.



Madara past his info/the tablet.



> Tobi's and Izuna's databook height and weight are perfect match.



Som1 with the same weight and height for over 100 years? Doesnt seem possible.



> Tobi's fight with Minato makes sense. Obito would have been only a mere kid at that point and not nearly as powerful enough to even dream of fighting Minato. Izuna on the other hand was on the same level with Madara thus more than capable of fighting Minato.


Thats your opinion, we clearly see Obito's eye technique there, we clearly saw a half merged Zetsu Obito body there, hell why would Izuna's body be merged with Zetsus was he also crushed by a boulder?



> His hair matches. It's spiky and deep black, but when long it's clearly a bit different from Madara's, which looks more lushy.


He had a pony tail, Obito's fits more.



> He wore the mask because world thought that Izuna had died. He also could take Madara's identity so he could start the war more easily


.Someone like Madara's brother doesnt need this, even the name ''Madara's brother'' should scare of everyone like Kakashi was with his fathers name.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Was in Madara's perspective, should have been obvious after Madara showed up with the Rinnegan.


Konan didn't know that Madara had Rinnegan. Plus she was going to die anyway, why would Tobi lie to him?



loool3 said:


> Would make sense if he really is Izuna, if hes someone else it still makes sense right?


If it's someone else it would need a lot more explaining.



loool3 said:


> He died in a war, current Madara even again confirmed Izuna being dead, with a sad face which means Izuna still is dead.


I dont recall, can you link me manga page? 

Also if that was true Madara might have just been lying. He would have been plotting with Izuna, it was probably their plan all along that Izuna would take Madara's identity and later revive Madara. Maybe he was just covering for Izuna, it's his brother after all.



loool3 said:


> Madara past his info/the tablet.


It's possible, sure. That also requires explaining, while Izuna knowing those things wouldn't require.



loool3 said:


> Som1 with the same weight and height for over 100 years? Doesnt seem possible.


So you think it's just pure coincidence that they're identical?



loool3 said:


> Thats your opinion, we clearly see Obito's eye technique there, we clearly saw a half merged Zetsu Obito body there, hell why would Izuna's body be merged with Zetsus was he also crushed by a boulder?


Well his eye is obviously Obito's. About his body... Honestly I have no idea. It'll surely be explained later.



loool3 said:


> He had a pony tail, Obito's fits more.


To be honest they both fit.



loool3 said:


> Someone like Madara's brother doesnt need this, even the name ''Madara's brother'' should scare of everyone like Kakashi was with his fathers name.


But Uchiha Madara surely had bigger impact. I mean Izuna only had MS. Madara had EMS and perfect Susano. He was the one known for enslaving Kurama and fighting Hashirama.

---

I'm not saying that Tobi being Obito is impossible. Kishi surely could write some sort of backstore that it would make sense. I'm just saying that with the evidence we have currently Tobi being Izuna is far more likely in my opinion.

Also for all we know Izuna _might_ be related to Obito somehow. BAM, easy connection to Kakashi right there. Kakashi broke his promise to Obito (Izuna's grandchild or something like that) by not being able to protect Rin, the girl Obito loved. Surely Izuna would have taken note of that.


----------



## Solo (Aug 11, 2012)

The thing about Tobi being Izuna is, Madara knew something about the Edo Tensei. Sadly.. Tobi didn't know a thing about the Edo Tensei.

That doesn't seem right imo.


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 11, 2012)

Solo Strike said:


> The thing about Tobi being Izuna is, Madara knew something about the Edo Tensei. Sadly.. Tobi didn't know a thing about the Edo Tensei.
> 
> That doesn't seem right imo.



Izuna died, before Madara faced Hashirama. Madara could've learned a shit load of jutsu before he revived Izuna with the rinnegan.


----------



## Talis (Aug 11, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> Konan didn't know that Madara had Rinnegan. Plus she was going to die anyway, why would Tobi lie to him?


If he didn't lie, why did he told  her that hes Madara? 
Dont say that its because hes a clone since you support Izuna. 



> If it's someone else it would need a lot more explaining.


We're talking about a masked character which excist like about 8 years? 
There will be a lot of explains for sure



> I dont recall, can you link me manga page?





> Also if that was true Madara might have just been lying. He would have been plotting with Izuna, it was probably their plan all along that Izuna would take Madara's identity and later revive Madara. Maybe he was just covering for Izuna, it's his brother after all.


Even databook confirmed his death.



> It's possible, sure. That also requires explaining, while Izuna knowing those things wouldn't require.


Wait what?
Since when did Izuna lived in RS era?




> So you think it's just pure coincidence that they're identical?


Yeah.




> Well his eye is obviously Obito's. About his body... Honestly I have no idea. It'll surely be explained later.


Even if Izuna was revivied believe me, theres no way in hell that he would be revived in Obito's body.



> To be honest they both fit.


The only one with the same hairstyle fits is the long haired masked man, personally i believe hes the real Madara but i have to say his hairstyle looks pretty much as Izuna's too.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 11, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> Lots of assumptions here. How can you possibly know noone else ever stole his cells during a fight. It can turn out Tobi is telling the truth.
> 
> And we're not necessarily talking about Madaras final fight with Hashirama. Kishi wants us to believe it at the time, true, but we are talking about Tobi's fight with Hashirama or why it makes sense to blatantly accept it as a lie. Consider the situation. Kabuto knows he isn't Madara. And Tobi knows it.



I didn't make any assumptions. Please tell me what assumptions I made. Everything I said was true.

- Tobi is not Madara - Fact, not assumption
- Tobi did not fight Hashirama, Madara fought him - Fact, not assumption
- Tobi was posing as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama - Fact. Tobi's been posing as Madara from when he was first introduced.

See? I made no assumptions there. Nothing I said was false.

And yes, we *are* talking about Hashirama's fight with Madara. You just decided to change the topic.


> How can you possibly know noone else ever stole his cells during a fight.



So you're implying that while Hashirama was fighting Madara (or anyone else), Tobi quietly snuck in and stole his cells without Hashirama even knowing. LOL.

Look, I can understand Tobi going to Hashirama's grave and stealing his cells/remains, but I can't understand Tobi stealing his cells in the middle of his fight with someone.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 11, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> - Tobi is not Madara - Fact, not assumption


True


> - Tobi did not fight Hashirama, Madara fought him - Fact, not assumption


ummm... No we know Madara fought him. Tobi May also have fought him. Tobi stated that he did fight him.


> - Tobi was posing as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama - Fact.


Towards Kabuto as well?


> Tobi's been posing as Madara from when he was first introduced.


No, not towards everyone from the when he 1st was introduced. Perhaps towards Nagato, Konan and Itachi, but not towards the readers and the rest of the narutoverse.



> See? I made no assumptions there. Nothing I said was false.



You assume since Tobi is not Madara, Tobi did not fight Hashirama.



> And yes, we *are* talking about Hashirama's fight with Madara. You just decided to change the topic.



No, it was originally about Tobi's "lie" towards Kabuto. Whether the reader should blatantly accept it as a lie or not.



> So you're implying that while Hashirama was fighting Madara (or anyone else), Tobi quietly snuck in and stole his cells without Hashirama even knowing. LOL.



Are you implying Madara did that? If you mean Tobi was still impersonating Madara towards Kabuto, Tobi certainly meant it was possible for Madara to do it. I'm considering what Tobi said, not what I think Tobi, who we don't know who are yet, are capable of.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 11, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> ummm... No we know Madara fought him. Tobi May also have fought him. Tobi stated that he did fight him.



How many times do I have to say this? Tobi was *posing* as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama. He said that to make people believe he was Madara.

Tobi couldn't have fought Hashirama.
All the characters who we consider to be candidates to be Tobi all existed after Hashirama's time.

- Fugaku
- Obito
- Kagami
- Izuna (Well, not him, but he died before Madara's fight with Hashirama)
- Shisui

They all existed after Hashirama's time. If Tobi is Obito, and you say that he fought Hashirama, that wouldn't be possible. Obito would have to time travel all the way back to Hashirama's time to fight him. There's no time traveling in Naruto and why the hell would Obito even do that? He doesn't even know who Hashirama is!



> Towards Kabuto as well?



I don't have the answer to that. Kabuto knew that Tobi was not Madara. When he used the Edo Tensei and revealed the sixth coffin, Tobi was shocked to see that it was Madara. After seeing that, Tobi obviously knew that Kabuto knew he wasn't Madara.





> You assume since Tobi is not Madara, Tobi did not fight Hashirama.



Precisely.



League said:


> I think he's Obito and furthermore i think the reason Kakashi has the  Mangekyō Sharingan is because Obito killed Rin.



Okay, so you think Tobi is Obito, but then you say that the reason why Kakashi awakened MS is because Obito killed Rin? That doesn't make any sense. You're saying that Tobi is Obito, so why the hell would he kill Rin? Obito loved Rin.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 11, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Precisely.



Good!



> How many times do I have to say this? Tobi was *posing* as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama
> ...
> I don't have the answer to that. Kabuto knew that Tobi was not Madara. When he used the Edo Tensei and revealed the sixth coffin, Tobi was shocked to see that it was Madara. After seeing that, Tobi obviously knew that Kabuto knew he wasn't Madara.



Then do you see that Tobi's statement "our battle" could be a potential plot hole. *THAT* is what I'm talking about. I know Kishi wanted the reader to believe Tobi was Madara at the time, but with the power of hindsight we readers have now, why would Tobi lie to Kabuto when Kabuto had just shown him he know Tobi is not Madara. What possible reason would there be for Tobi to lie?
If Kishi considered the bigger picture back then, and if Tobi is Obito, I don't think he would have Tobi say this, right after Kabuto showed him the coffin.

Or Tobi could have told the truth: He did fight Hashirama. Then there are obviously no problems with this sentence. We don't know for a fact, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.


----------



## blackhawkdown (Aug 11, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> How many times do I have to say this? Tobi was *posing* as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama. He said that to make people believe he was Madara.
> 
> Tobi couldn't have fought Hashirama.
> All the characters who we consider to be candidates to be Tobi all existed after Hashirama's time.
> ...



"They all existed after Hashirama's time".
You did not mention elder son of the 6 paths.



Part 1: Naruto Chapter 597!!!
Part 2: Naruto Chapter 597!!!
Part 3: Naruto Chapter 597!!!

If he kind of live in another time slow dimension and have some Zetsu black white mess in him maybe hes still alive as tobi. That would explain why he had 1 of 2 possible Rinnegan.



Known Wielders

    Nagato
    Sage of the Six Paths
    Tobi
    Madara Uchiha 

Only 6path and madara have Rinnegan
Tobi = elder son of the sage he took his rinnegan and gave it to nagato and than took it back whitch left 2 people ever had Rinnegan.

Sage of the Six Paths
Madara Uchiha

Madara was the only one used Gunbai (the mazlou thing) as weapon.
He probably took the Gunbai from madara and maybe an Sharingan or something from him. that why he call him self madara.


----------



## mlc818 (Aug 11, 2012)

blackhawkdown said:


> Madara was the only one used Gunbai (the mazlou thing) as weapon.
> He probably took the Gunbai from madara and maybe an Sharingan or something from him. that why he call him self madara.



I don't think it's ever been definitively stated that Madara (not Tobi) used the Gedo Mazo.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 11, 2012)

blackhawkdown said:


> "They all existed after Hashirama's time".
> You did not mention elder son of the 6 paths.
> 
> 
> ...



Elder son theory is not plausible. I highly doubt Tobi is the elder son.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 12, 2012)

You know what, I think it's gonna be a brand new character that has ties with everybody. I think kishi is gonna start fresh(god knows we need that with everybody coming back to life). I'm just gonna start throwing randoms out now.
*
Whoever he is he has to: *
had some type of interaction with orochimaru experimenting
knowledge of danzo 
know everything there is to know about the sharingan
has great Intel on leaf and their secrets 
Familiar with old and veteran ninja of the leaf
has to be up there in age(like 40-50)
mastered space time jutsu
extensive knowledge of the tailed beast
S ranked ninja
someone who never met minato(when tobi fought minato it was like it was the 1st time he met him) 
Someone with access to madara's and orochimarus research
Knows all about the hell statue
Doesn't care for the uchiha
knows about the raikage's relationship with killer bee
has to be an uchiha


*Randoms:*

The white fang:
they said he killed himself but this was never really 100% confirmed. Aged just about right, power level was legendary. Kakashi's dad may have been secretly an uchiha and that's why kakashi is so good at using his sharingan. Would know certain traits of kakashi and guy. Would have been in the middle of the leafs secrets. Probably blames the leaf for what happened to him and his squad and went crazy.

*Uchiha in white fangs squad:*
Some strong uchiha that was the white fangs rival. He probably believed in madara's politics about the village. 

*madara's son:*
Y'all can figure this one out

*Somebody in kakashi's past*
It has been said in part one that all of kakashi's friends and family were dead. So one of his uchiha mentors probably faked his death.

*A madara clone that grew up in the village as a sleeper agent:*
yeah, you get the point lol. He eventually went rouge after gaining a mind of his own.

*rikudou*
He could be a underpowered version of his former self. He could be starting all this shit up just to test human beings. Sort of like a god passing judgement. He is pretty much falling apart and has a stock of sharingan eyes. He's trying to get his full power back. He has extensive knowledge of the ninja world, he's both senju and uchiha. He gave his eyes to nagato and waited for him to grow up and power his eyes. He gathered up all the tailed beast and become the 10 tails jin again to get his power back. This would explain the whole "shell of my former self". I think he's also trying to right his wrongs the best way he can do it......................?


I'm done for now and I'm just gonna wait for the big revile.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 12, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> I'm done for now and I'm just gonna wait for the big revile.




 this was a typo but its so appropriate 


get ready for the big revile Thizz


----------



## kg927 (Aug 12, 2012)

My theory I've made with friends a year ago:

Orochimaru revived Izuna imperfectly with the help of some zetsu/senju cells, and Izuna left him/escaped whatever. Tell me this doesn't explain _everything_


----------



## Easley (Aug 12, 2012)

Setsuna looks lonely up there. 0 votes. If Tobi was being literal then he'd be the perfect candidate. A nobody. I had to Google his name in fact.

It's hard not to talk about the latest chapter, but I hope Kishi has a few surprises in store. We don't want a bad "revile". hehe


----------



## gus3 (Aug 12, 2012)

After what happened in 596, how many of you now agree with my theory that Tobi is at the very least in possession of Obito's eye?


----------



## Davit (Aug 12, 2012)

tobi does in fact have obito's eye, in cant be obito, because madara and "Tobi" know one another, so the fact it being obito can be ruled out! The interview said that his identity would be revealed within the next few weeks so looks like he's staying true to his word, any chapter now! Madara's Brother? maybe, Madara did take his eyes, i'm just guessing, obito's eye.. then rinnegan to fill the spots?

in case any asks what interview.


----------



## gus3 (Aug 12, 2012)

Davit said:


> tobi does in fact have obito's eye, in cant be obito, because madara and "Tobi" know one another, so the fact it being obito can be ruled out! The interview said that his identity would be revealed within the next few weeks so looks like he's staying true to his word, any chapter now! Madara's Brother? maybe, Madara did take his eyes, i'm just guessing, obito's eye.. then rinnegan to fill the spots?



I actually have two theories on this. One, Tobi was Madara's apprentice and retrieved Obito's Sharingan shortly after his death.

And two is where I disagree with you. I don't get why knowing Madara would rule out Obito. Madara could have saved Obito or even somehow brought him back to life. Obito may have spent a few years under Madara's tutelage before Madara finally died. We already know he was ridiculously old when Nagato was a kid. No reason why he couldn't have survived a couple of more decades if he managed to cheat death for that long.


----------



## Talis (Aug 12, 2012)

Just figured out ''Tobitobi'' means in Japanese ''scattered here and there'' just as Obito's Sharingan and his body.


----------



## League (Aug 12, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> How many times do I have to say this? Tobi was *posing* as Madara when he said he fought Hashirama. He said that to make people believe he was Madara.
> 
> Tobi couldn't have fought Hashirama.
> All the characters who we consider to be candidates to be Tobi all existed after Hashirama's time.
> ...




It stands to reason that the two sharingan are linked and that even though at the time only one of the eyes would have been in his head it would cause both eyes to unlock.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't every Mangekyō Sharingan unlock by killing someone you love.


----------



## Tasq21 (Aug 12, 2012)

now i get it!!!
a lot of Naruto fans don't like the tobi=obito theory so kishi will make a last plot twist that will kind of make people like the tobi=obito thing...(at last i hope...)
tobi IS obito BUT obito is the reincarnation of Izuna(it fits....they have the same b-day,blood typ...) and thats why Madara works with him...he know its Izuna...kind of...maybe the reincarnation has something to do with Izunas MS at the end...
and the rinnegan eyes are his to begin with...and he knows a lot of madara because there were brothers...and he COULD have fought Hashirama at a point...
oh man it makes so much sence now...
and now im going to bed because i waited the whole night for this damn chapter...


----------



## gus3 (Aug 12, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> now i get it!!!
> a lot of Naruto fans don't like the tobi=obito theory so kishi will make a last plot twist that will kind of make people like the tobi=obito thing...(at last i hope...)
> tobi IS obito BUT obito is the reincarnation of Izuna(it fits....they have the same b-day,blood typ...) and thats why Madara works with him...he know its Izuna...kind of...maybe the reincarnation has something to do with Izunas MS at the end...
> and the rinnegan eyes are his to begin with...and he knows a lot of madara because there were brothers...and he COULD have fought Hashirama at a point...
> ...



You know what I just realized. If Tobi's Sharingan did originally belong to Obito, then that means both of his eyes are now in the procession of two guys whose masks never seem to come off.


----------



## blakout808 (Aug 12, 2012)

I think i figured it all out guys, im new here but now that i think i figured it out i duno if i wanna spoil it for you guys... should i?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 12, 2012)

blakout808 said:


> I think i figured it all out guys, im new here but now that i think i figured it out i duno if i wanna spoil it for you guys... should i?



Please tell us if its not been mentioned 1000 times already


----------



## SaiST (Aug 12, 2012)

blakout808 said:


> I think i figured it all out guys, im new here but now that i think i figured it out i duno if i wanna spoil it for you guys... should i?


If it involves mentioning anything related to what has been revealed in the latest chapter, I'll have to ask that you refrain.

Please review our rules regarding spoilers.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

All I have heard from Jacamo and thebax this whole thread is
"impossible impossible blah blah plot hole blah denialdenial"

Serious come up with a legitimate reason why it CAN'T BE obito and not a "I don't like it timeline issue" reason. Author can work around stuff. Nough said.


----------



## Silence (Aug 12, 2012)

I just want all this to end. Tobi is Obito, Tobi is not Obito, Tobi is your mom with Obito's eye... Just wanna know the truth already.


----------



## Davit (Aug 12, 2012)

okay so you're telling me, that the masked man who attacked konoha back then with the kyuubi and fought minato with the same eye jutsu, is obito?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

Davit said:


> okay so you're telling me, that the masked man who attacked konoha back then with the kyuubi and fought minato with the same eye jutsu, is obito?



Yup. **


----------



## Davit (Aug 12, 2012)

i don't know if I buy it just yet, but I guess I could give it the benefit of the doubt that he may be obito, though i don't see how obito grew within that time frame, well it'll happen soon where we find out who he is, so why not just wait right? lol


----------



## Mei Lin (Aug 12, 2012)

Obito or not Obito TOBITO,  BITO MADARITO h


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...




Enough of the Tobito wanking guys


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 12, 2012)

League said:


> It stands to reason that the two sharingan are linked and that even though at the time only one of the eyes would have been in his head it would cause both eyes to unlock.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't every Mangekyō Sharingan unlock by killing someone you love.



Yes, you're correct. But the question I'm asking here is that if you think Tobi is Obito, then why would he kill Rin?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Enough of the Tobito wanking guys



You're pretty much delusional if you think those "plot holes" debunk anything at this point.


----------



## Sugiru93 (Aug 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You're pretty much delusional if you think those "plot holes" debunk anything at this point.



So let's all try & break things down then because I think this is a very convincing list. Any specific reasons as to why some things here can't be true?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

Davit said:


> okay so you're telling me, that the masked man who attacked konoha back then with the kyuubi and fought minato with the same eye jutsu, is obito?



well lets see, just really how STRONG was tobi when he fought minato? All he did was spam one MS jutsu. as long as you master that one technique, which isn't difficult look how fast sasuke mastered amaterasu in middle of battle, then he is instantly top tier because its difficult to damage him at all.



Sugiru93 said:


> So let's all try & break things down then because I think this is a very convincing list. Any specific reasons as to why some things here can't be true?



I have made multiple posts search there in this thread. I broke them down time andtime again, I'm not gonna breakthem down again.


----------



## Davit (Aug 12, 2012)

League said:


> It stands to reason that the two sharingan are linked and that even though at the time only one of the eyes would have been in his head it would cause both eyes to unlock.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't every Mangekyō Sharingan unlock by killing someone you love.



well it's stated that to obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan, one must feel the emotion of losing a friend or family, as merely killing them or watching them die will not activate it.


----------



## Sugiru93 (Aug 12, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I have made multiple posts search there in this thread. I broke them down time and time again, I'm not gonna break them down again.



Like did you hit an opinion once you saw it or did you tackle the list one thing at a time?


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

The fact that the Kyubbi recognized Tobi essentially seals the deal. If you want more, the fact that Nagato is much older than Tobi seals the deal that Tobito is impossible. Either Kishi will go down as the worst writer in history, or Tobi is not Obito. Simple.

And I doubt you took down each plothole in the list, because any plothole by itself destroys the theory, all you need is one plot hole. So please, lets sit down, have some tea, and you can "destroy" the list. I'm waiting.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

Sugiru93 said:


> So let's all try & break things down then because I think this is a very convincing list. Any specific reasons as to why some things here can't be true?



Because Tobi's clearly Obito, so all these "plot holes" are either false assumptions (Obito can't become so strong so fast, Obito's personality would never change like that) or conclusions reached out of ignorance.

Or genuine bad writing but I'll give Kishi the benefit of the doubt for now.


----------



## Sugiru93 (Aug 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> *Because Tobi's clearly Obito*, so all these "plot holes" are either false assumptions (Obito can't become so strong so fast, Obito's personality would never change like that) or conclusions reached out of ignorance.



But what specifically makes you think that he is? And things like not becoming strong quickly & personality changes can be seen as a false assumption. I get that. But what about other things like Kurama recognizing Tobi?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> The fact that the Kyubbi recognized Tobi essentially seals the deal. If you want more, the fact that Nagato is much older than Tobi seals the deal that Tobito is impossible. Either Kishi will go down as the worst writer in history, or Tobi is not Obito. Simple.



I love this damage control.

"There's no way Tobi can be Obito, and if I'm wrong it's bad writing, so I don't lose face."



> And I doubt you took down each plothole in the list, because any plothole by itself destroys the theory, all you need is one plot hole. So please, lets sit down, have some tea, and you can "destroy" the list. I'm waiting.



We don't need to "destroy" the list. The manga is doing that for us.



Sugiru93 said:


> But what specifically makes you think that he is?



There is simply overwhelming evidence pointing to that outcome, mostly concentrated in the recent chapters.

The similar eye jutsus, the personal snipes at Kakashi and Gai, all noted and emphasized, it is too obvious to deny a connection any longer.



> But what about other things like Kurama recognizing Tobi?



What about it? It's not like the proves or disproves anything.

And Kurama so far has not reacted to Tobi at all during the current battle.

Perhaps he does not truly know him?


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

> I love this damage control.
> 
> "There's no way Tobi can be Obito, and if I'm wrong it's bad writing, so I don't lose face."



This isn't damage control. This is common sense. Please, explain to me how Obito gave Nagato the Rinnegan, especially since, you know...Obito is older than Nagato! Because if Kishi doesn't explain it, guess what that is....A PLOT HOLE.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> This isn't damage control. This is common sense. Please, explain to me how Obito gave Nagato the Rinnegan, especially since, you know...Obito is older than Nagato! Because if Kishi doesn't explain it, guess what that is....A PLOT HOLE.



That was clearly something Madara did that Tobi took credit for.


----------



## Sugiru93 (Aug 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That was clearly something Madara did that Tobi took credit for.



Hmm, that could be true as well. But do we have any type of way of telling whether or not Tobi is telling the truth on things or not anymore?




First Tsurugi said:


> What about it? It's not like the proves or disproves anything.
> 
> And Kurama so far has not reacted to Tobi at all during the current battle.
> 
> Perhaps he does not truly know him?



I think he does know him. Madara took control of Kurama in the past & fought Hashirama. After the fight, in which Madara died, Mito became Kurama's 1st Jinchuuriki. Eventually Mito's time to pass had nearly come & Kurama went straight from Mito to Kushina. Obito died some time (1-2 years i believe) before Kushina & Minato did, so Obito can't be Tobi (atleast at that moment) & shortly before Tobi tried taking control of Kurama he looked at Tobi & said "You!". Meaning he knew who Tobi was since he knows that Madara was already dead & had no way of meeting Obito since he was inside of Kushina the whole time Obito was alive. He recognized Tobi as a different person. Who that is is of course why we're all here discussing it.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

Sugiru93 said:


> Hmm, that could be true as well. But do we have any type of way of telling whether or not Tobi is telling the truth on things or not anymore?



Well the only evidence we have that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan in the first place are his own words, which were said while he was roleplaying Madara.

Later, Madara implies that he met Nagato and planned to use him to resurrect himself.

To me there seems to be sufficient evidence to suggest that it was Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan and spurred Yahiko into creating Akatsuki.



> I think he does know him. Madara took control of Kurama in the past & fought Hashirama. After the fight, in which Madara died, Mito became Kurama's 1st Jinchuuriki. Eventually Mito's time to pass had nearly come & Kurama went straight from Mito to Kushina. Obito died some time (1-2 years i believe) before Kushina & Minato did, so Obito can't be Tobi (atleast at that moment) & shortly before Tobi tried taking control of Kurama he looked at Tobi & said "You!". Meaning he knew who Tobi was since he knows that Madara was already dead & had no way of meeting Obito since he was inside of Kushina the whole time Obito was alive. He recognized Tobi as a different person. Who that is is of course why we're all here discussing it.



I think Kurama recognizing Tobi was largely just to make the reader think he was Madara, while still being vague enough to not ruin the later twist. I don't think there is any deeper significance behind the comment.

While he does recognize Tobi, he does not identify him, though the implication was that he thought he was Madara. But currently he has so far not suggested any familiarity with Tobi. He has even called him "the Masked Man" like most other characters.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

For starters, don't discuss the new chapter information here, there's a thread for that in the telegrams.



Sugiru93 said:


> *Like did you hit an opinion once you saw it or did you tackle the list one thing at a time*?





MonkeyDNaruto said:


> The fact that the Kyubbi recognized Tobi essentially seals the deal. If you want more, the fact that Nagato is much older than Tobi seals the deal that Tobito is impossible. Either Kishi will go down as the worst writer in history, or Tobi is not Obito. Simple.
> 
> *And I doubt you took down each plothole in the list, because any plothole by itself destroys the theory, all you need is one plot hole. So please, lets sit down, have some tea, and you can "destroy" the list. I'm waiting*.



Yes, I did, its a point by point giving POSSIBLE explanations. If it CAN be explained then it is NOT a Plot hole nor does it make it impossible. I'll go through my search list and see if I can find a couple good ones since you guys are new to this thread. 

As for Nagato being older than Obito, we don't know Tobi's age, he doesn't appear until the kyuubi attack, plus he posed as Madara and took credit for many of his deeds/actions. So its possible to be just another one of Madara's actions and not his. In that same chapter he also said he fought hashirama at the vote, took his power, and faked his death



Mistshadow said:


> 1. 2 years after. And Height? You are trying to use height? Look at how tall the sound 5 were, they def didnt look 14. Look at how tall Itachi was during Massacre and when he beat Orochimaru at 11/14. Def looked the same as he was at 19. Look at Kakashi during the kyuubi attack. He looked plenty tall. For seal weakening, knowledge he learned from Madara. For abilities, all he needed to do to do what he did was learn to utilize the S/T jutsu from his MS and thats that. He didn't use any variety. He is just very difficult to hit. To tame the Kyuubi, what better than to have the guy who made it his DOG to teach him.
> 
> 2. Idiot Point. Kyuubi sees everything host sees. Kyuubi was in Kushina. Kushina was married to Minato. Minato trained Kakashi and Obito. But you believe that in all those years of being trained, Kakashi and Obito would have NEVER met Kushina......put a and b together.
> 
> ...





Mistshadow said:


> For Obito theory, there are possible explanations:
> 
> 1- He was saved by Madara and LIVED because of the Zetsu goo body parts, we've already seen Tobi heal himself and replace parts in minutes with them.
> 
> ...



Here, point by point to someone elses 'plot holes'

If I can come up with a logical explanation that works, then you sure as hell better believe Kishi can.


----------



## NW (Aug 12, 2012)

I can't believe people are actually still using jacamo's "plotholes".

Such denial.

The only one of those that actually holds any amount of weight at all is the Kushina quote one.

It's like they'tenyyeeeawe!


----------



## Tharris (Aug 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Because Tobi's clearly Obito, so all these "plot holes" are either false assumptions (Obito can't become so strong so fast, Obito's personality would never change like that) or conclusions reached out of ignorance.
> 
> Or genuine bad writing but I'll give Kishi the benefit of the doubt for now.



Tobi's identity is anything, but clear.
Kishi is so good at suspense that he's intertwined Tobi's story in with team Minato.
Not just Obito... but Rin and more importantly Kakashi are involved with Tobi's identity as well.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Aug 12, 2012)

Elder Son. Apparently, even the Uchiha ancestor was a loser.


----------



## NW (Aug 12, 2012)

Tharris said:
			
		

> Tobi's identity is anything, but clear.
> Kishi is so good at suspense that he's intertwined Tobi's story in with team Minato.
> Not just Obito... but Rin and more importantly Kakashi are involved with Tobi's identity as well.


Or Tobi is Obito. Why else would he say those things to Kakashi?



			
				Tharris said:
			
		

> *Proof Tobi is not Obito.*


That doesn't disprove anything. And no spoilers allowed outside the telegrams yet.



			
				Closet Pervert said:
			
		

> Elder Son. Apparently, even the Uchiha ancestor was a loser.


People actually still believe that Tobi is the Elder Son?


----------



## KingofVegetables (Aug 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> What about it? It's not like the proves or disproves anything.
> 
> And Kurama so far has not reacted to Tobi at all during the current battle.
> 
> Perhaps he does not truly know him?


Well we can assume that tobi used 2 different eyes from the time he controlled kurama until now. I doubt when kurama said "you," that he recognized obito's eye but it was indeed madara's/izuna's eye at that point. he said he found his current eye.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

KingofVegetables said:


> Well we can assume that tobi used 2 different eyes from the time he controlled kurama until now. I doubt when kurama said "you," that he recognized obito's eye but it was indeed madara's/izuna's eye at that point. he said he found his current eye.



orrrrrrrrrr

he just recognized the chakra, or the jutsu. 
He has had the sameS/T right eye since he existed. Its only the left eye he swaps.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

To Mistshadow, I'll go back and refute your post over each plot hole, if of course I agree your explanation, I'll just say something like "Fair enough":

1. *Tobi's Power Level*
You don't really talk about this much, but you're main argument is that Madara taught him. Now tell me, how could Madara teach someone...while he's dead? Madara died around when Nagato was very young, Nagato is a lot older than Obito. Get my point?

2. *Personality U-Turn*
Same as number 1.

3. *Kushina Quote*
This is a very strong plot hole, no one waits one and half years and acts like they've been waiting an eternity. You also didn't mention this (but you were referring to someone else's list so I won't hold this against you).

4. *Kyubbi Recognized Tobi*
Fair enough, the Kyuubi could have seen Obito.

5. *Tobi is too tall*
More proof:
Naruto Chapter 597!!!
Go to 0:21

6. *Minato would have Figured it out*
Minato was a kage. If he couldn't do a simple thing like recognizing the chakra was so close to that of his own *student* than that is a plot hole. No questions asked.

7. *This is HIS Doing*
Same as number 1

8. *Tobi sees Hashirama in him*
Tell me, how does Obito know Hashirama. Like really, tell me.

9. *During Our Battle*
Still holds true....

10. *Too much knowledge*
Still holds true...

11. *Obito is younger than Nagato*
This seals the deal.


----------



## NW (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> 1. *Tobi's Power Level*
> You don't really talk about this much, but you're main argument is that Madara taught him. Now tell me, how could Madara teach someone...while he's dead? Madara died around when Nagato was very young, Nagato is a lot older than Obito. Get my point?


Proof that he died when nagato was very young?



> 2. *Personality U-Turn*
> Same as number 1.


same as number 1.



> 3. *Kushina Quote*
> This is a very strong plot hole, no one waits one and half years and acts like they've been waiting an eternity. You also didn't mention this (but you were referring to someone else's list so I won't hold this against you).


I'd say the same thing if I'd waited 2-3 years for a few second event.



> 5. *Tobi is too tall*
> More proof:
> Naruto Chapter 597!!!
> Go to 0:21


This argument is fucking bullshit. There's no way a 15-16 year old couldn't have been just under 5'9!

people are just desperately using this in case their other points fail, which they do.



> 6. *Minato would have Figured it out*
> Minato was a kage. If he couldn't do a simple thing like recognizing the chakra was so close to that of his own *student* than that is a plot hole. No questions asked.


Um, that's no plothole. Minato wasn't a sensor and what reason would he have to suspect obito?



> 7. *This is HIS Doing*
> Same as number 1


Same as number 1.



> 8. *Tobi sees Hashirama in him*
> Tell me, how does Obito know Hashirama. Like really, tell me.


Why would he have had to?



> 9. *During Our Battle*
> Still holds true....


No it doesnt.



> 10. *Too much knowledge*
> Still holds true...


No. Are you saying Itachi couldn't have had all the knowledge he did? Well, he had the knowledge, so I don't see a problem.



> 11. *Obito is younger than Nagato*
> This seals the deal.


Yes, this also proves that Tobi never attacked Konoha. Minato thought he was fighting tobi but it was actually an illusion. And tobi is actually Madara and Edo Madara is izuna in disguise. Nice deduction, man!


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 12, 2012)

When you give a possible explanation to a plot hole, that's exactly what you do. But it may still be a plot hole. To say "It's not a plot hole, because I have shown there to be possibilities", are useless when it comes to erasing plot holes.

Concerning the Tobito plot holes, we can't possible know if they are plot holes yet. Your "possibilities", too, are possibly wrong. See what I did there?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> To Mistshadow, I'll go back and refute your post over each plot hole, if of course I agree your explanation, I'll just say something like "Fair enough":
> 
> 1. *Tobi's Power Level*
> You don't really talk about this much, but you're main argument is that Madara taught him. Now tell me, how could Madara teach someone...while he's dead? Madara died around when Nagato was very young, Nagato is a lot older than Obito. Get my point?
> ...



I'll go over more detail then

1/2/3: You say someone can't become 'that' strong over the span of 2 years. But really Tobi wasn't all that strong, all he did was master one MS jutsu, which made him near impossible to hit. As for Madara's death, it is unknown WHEN he died. My preference of the theory has him dying in between 3rd war and kyuubi attack. Thus him being trained by Madara isn't impossible, and it explains his strength and MASSIVEknowledge on Madara's past along with them knowing each other. I'm sorry I have a headache and don't feel like running in circles with this debate again, search the past few pages about it. But the point I'm making is you can't use the time they say for 'confirming' plot holes as long as the possibility exists. To a 15 year old 2 years can seem like an eternity while to a 90 year old 2 years will fly by and seem short. Time is all about perception which also applies to Madara calling Nagato "that brat must have grown up" could have still been in his 20's and called him so in regards to power or because of how much older Madara was. Keep in mind Jiraiya called Nagato a kid too when they were fighting. Another possibility is that the other dimension COULD flow by differently, much slower, in regards to time so maybe he did spend a long time. Possibilities man, thus not a plot hole. As for the personality, come on, there could be a million reasons for that. Broken promises, disillusioned with the war, traumatic event of almost dying. There is this little thing called brain washing that makes people change personalities or views XD

4. Thank you, 

5. I'm not using anime to help support any claim. And I'm sorry but you can't use height logic in this. I'm 5ft7in, I take care of a couple 12 year olds at work who are taller than me.............are you telling me they are impossible? How old would you say kimimaro is when you first saw him, or Jirobo. Jirobo stood at 5ft 9in as a 14 year old and Kimimaro stood at 5ft 5in. Minato is only 5ft 8in. Tobi is 5ft 7in. Obito was 5ft. You are telling me that it is impossible to grow 7 inches in 2 years at the on set of puberty?
Naruto Uzumaki went from 4ft 7in to 5ft 5 in in the time skip of about 2 years. Again not a plot hole.

6. How can he sense the chakra.........Minato is NOT a sensor. Figure out the identity as his student based on what then? Techniques? obviously the S/T technique is new, at MOST 2 years old during that encounter. And I wouldn't suspect someone under the mask of being a student I believed dead, especially one that I was essentially there to watch die but being a few minutes too late. EVERYONE should be able to figure out who batman is if they know bruce wayne, or spiderman if they know peter parker.

7. There is no confirmation of when Madara died. 'shortly' and 'grew up' don't give good time table when Madara lived a life into old age and has a tendency to refer to people as kids/adults based on power. Kishi is intentionally vague so that when he reveals the identity as who he wants it to be, he can fill in the gaps properly. If we knew these few details, then the Tobi identity theories would not be theories but facts because we would be able to precisely say who it is without a shadow of a doubt.

8. Pretending to be Madara. Consistent liar. Zetsu is able to replay events to him. Any number of possibilities. Did Tobi also fight at the VOTE and look to the future by stealing Hashirama's power and faking his death? Or was that Madara. Again not a plot hole because its POSSIBLE. not IMPOSSIBLE.

9. MADARA fought Hashirama at vote, not Tobi. Just because Kabuto knew, the READER didn't. We didn't know who was in the coffin or that Tobi was lying about being Madara at that point. And just because Kabuto knew he wasn't Madara, doesn't mean he knew who he was/is, and Tobi probably wanted to keep it that way so kept up his charade and credit for deeds to prevent kabuto from guesstimating by time periods. Unless you believe Tobi IS Madara, then in that case we have more issues..........

10. Knowledge can be gained from Madara, or Zetsu Memory Playbacks. Not difficult.
Not impossible.

11. Yes, Obito is younger than Nagato, BUT Tobi MAY also be younger than Nagato.




gjoerulv said:


> When you give a possible explanation to a plot hole, that's exactly what you do. But it may still be a plot hole. To say "It's not a plot hole, because I have shown there to be possibilities", are useless when it comes to erasing plot holes.
> 
> Concerning the Tobito plot holes, we can't possible know if they are plot holes yet. Your "possibilities", too, are possibly wrong. See what I did there?



I'm well aware I could be wrong. That's not my point. My point is they want to say its impossible and can't be so because there are 'plot holes' that prevent it. But authors can explain it, and if I can explain things away with possibilities or plausibility, then so can Kishi, the guy who invented this manga.


----------



## NW (Aug 12, 2012)

gjoerulv said:
			
		

> When you give a possible explanation to a plot hole, that's exactly what you do. But it may still be a plot hole. To say "It's not a plot hole, because I have shown there to be possibilities", are useless when it comes to erasing plot holes.


No, it's not. Not unless Kishi doesn't explain it which we know he will. And we've already given possible explanations for it. They may not be the correct explanations, but if we, the fans can come up with a possibility, then Kishi, the author, sure can.

So, possibilities are not useless.



> Concerning the Tobito plot holes, we can't possible know if they are plot holes yet. Your "possibilities", too, are possibly wrong. See what I did there?


See above.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

*Food For Thought*

*Exhibit A*


*Exhibit B*


In Exhibit A, it is obvious Kisame meets the "real" Madara. He shows himself "off-screen" to Kisame, and obviously has nothing to hide. Kishi never revealed this part because he wanted people to continue to think that Tobi was Madara. But it is obvious here that this guy with the trademark Madara hair is in fact the real Madara. 

Now, flash forward to Exhibit B. Kisame clearly treats "Tobi", the guy with the mask, the *exact* way that he treated the guy in Exhibit A...as if they are the same person. Clearly they are not, Madara is long dead by the time of Exhibit B. So what does this conclude, the man behind the mask must look like someone *very* similar to Madara. Enough to make Kisame think that "Tobi" was the same guy from Exhibit A.


Things that this suggests...Tobi is related to Madara in someway in order to be so similar in appearance. I'm not saying who Tobi is, and I'm definitely not saying he's Izuna (I hate Izuna theories nearly as much as I hate Tobito theories...I actually think he is someone far more significant). Anyway, just some food for thought for you guys to think about.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

What this suggests is that they are the same person.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

Brian said:


> Just to clarify, Minato is a sensor, you can see him place his finger on the ground and locate the enemy similar to Tobirama. And he made out that they were kagebunshins



No, detecting the presence of people is not being a sensor for the sake of the argument. We don't know what that is, but it is NOT detecting and differentiating chakra. Most likely its a skilled method of feeling the vibrations on ground and tracking. Seems to be a physical contact type of sensing than chakra sensing.
Sensors for the sake of the argument are those that detect chakra from a distance and can differentiate between them for people. you don't need to touch ground to, but rather just focus. See SM Naruto, Karin, C, Yamanakas, Mu. If you can't detect chakra and differentiate, how is he supposed to recognize obito is tobi


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

So you're saying the guy in Exhibit A is not Madara? LOL


----------



## DUNGEON (Aug 12, 2012)

Kisame is as confused as we are. Kishi trolled him too.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> So you're saying the guy in Exhibit A is not Madara? LOL



Yup, that's essentially what I'm saying.


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 12, 2012)

The problem is that we don't know how for example Obito changed with age, even if it's Obito, Kisame may still recognize Obito as Madara if characters of Obito's face progressed in certain direction I prefer Tobi to be Izuna though


Didn't even count their love to implant genes or something else like plastic surgery


----------



## PDQ (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> In Exhibit A, it is obvious Kisame meets the "real" Madara. He shows himself "off-screen" to Kisame, and obviously has nothing to hide. Kishi never revealed this part because he wanted people to continue to think that Tobi was Madara. But it is obvious here that this guy with the trademark Madara hair is in fact the real Madara.


Tobi can't cut his hair?

Why would he need to hide anything?  Kisame has no idea what the real Madara looks like because he wasn't alive back then.  Tobi could be Ino with Sharingan for all we care and Kisame wouldn't have any reason to question it.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 12, 2012)

Maybe that masked man was Obito, but then again...maybe not. 

I really doubt it was the real Madara though.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

> Yup, that's essentially what I'm saying.



So by your logic...(based on what I know about you)...Obito has long hair...? I'm in shock of the stupidity of this post.




> Tobi can't cut his hair?
> 
> Why would he need to hide anything? Kisame has no idea what the real Madara looks like because he wasn't alive back then. Tobi could be Ino with Sharingan for all we care and Kisame wouldn't have any reason to question it.



This makes no sense. It is obvious and is agreed upon even amongst Tobito fans that that guy is MADARA. Kisame saw the real Madara in Exhibit A and my point is that he saw someone that looks ALOT like Madara in Exhibit B. And Kisame OBVIOUSLY knows how Madara looks like because he asked him to show himself. If he doesn't know how he looks like then how the hell would he ask that. Finally, tell me the last time you saw in a shonen manga someone that has two DRASTICALLY different hair styles. Hair styles are like the most unique part of a manga character. It tells us who they ARE. My gosh, you guys make me feel stupid.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 12, 2012)

The long haired masked man and Tobi are the same person.


----------



## PDQ (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> This makes no sense. It is obvious and is agreed upon even amongst Tobito fans that that guy is MADARA. Kisame saw the real Madara in Exhibit A and my point is that he saw someone that looks ALOT like Madara in Exhibit B. And Kisame OBVIOUSLY knows how Madara looks like because he asked him to show himself. If he doesn't know how he looks like then how the hell would he ask that.


He knows how Tobi looks because Tobi showed him his face last time.  It is not "obvious" that he's Madara by any means.  There's nothing to suggest Exhibit A is anyone other than Tobi.


> Finally, tell me the last time you saw in a shonen manga someone that has two DRASTICALLY different hair styles. Hair styles are like the most unique part of a manga character. It tells us who they ARE.


In Naruto?  Sakura, Lee, Killer B, Oonoki
Yuusuke - Yu Yu Hakusho
Orihime - Bleach
All the Vizard - Bleach
Tousen - Bleach(TBTP)
Aizen - Bleach
Byakuya - Bleach(TBTP)
Krillin - DBZ
Baam - Tower of God
Ed - Full metal Alchemist
Onizuka - Great Teacher Onizuka
Ken - Digimon
Casca - Berserk
Clare - Claymore
Hawkeye - FMA


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

So you're telling me short haired Tobi and long haired "Tobi" are the same? LOL the long haired guy DIDNT EVEN HAVE A MASK ON. Moreoever, I think I said it wrong...it has never, if not very rare, for a character to go from on hair style back to another and then back to another. He starts off with short hair, then goes to long hair mode for the uchiha massacre and Kiri village incident, and now is back to short hair. Finally, the only character I know of on your list and one that actually makes sense is Sakura. That's about it, and she had reason to cut her hair. I doubt people like Tobi have time to groom there hair so he can be a pimp or something.


----------



## Blur (Aug 12, 2012)

There is a thing called Sharingan Genjutsu, it helps to remove any inconsistencies. Tobi Genjutsu'd Kisame into thinking that he is Madara, before removing his mask, it is as easy as that.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 12, 2012)

Also, Kisame is an incompetent shinobi who would fall such a prank. And moreover if it was so simple, why doesn't Tobi just do this to everyone and forget using the stupid mask?

The only way to answer everything is Kishi-Troll no jutsu in which he simply stops caring and makes Tobi whoever the hell he wants, disregarding the plot holes involved.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 12, 2012)

*FANFIC TIME!*

Madara, a young lad of about 20, becomes the leader of the Uchiha clan, with Izuna by his side, but his eyes reach their limits and he's left blind. Izuna presents his eyes, dying very shortly after in battle. Madara tests the MS in battle and is shocked to discover he has achieved EMS. He discovers too late that he could have give his brother his own eyes and he wouldn't have to go blind. -> Notice this is likely because no other Uchiha had EMS before Madara that we know of.

Madara, while unhappy that the Uchiha want peace when Izuna sacrificed himself for power, accepts to have peace with the Senju for the sake of his clan and together they form the Leaf village. Sometime later, Madara gets butthurt everyone prefers Hashirama's hair to his and leaves the Leaf, swearing revenge for this infamy, both towards the Leaf and his clan.

Because Madara realises he can't beat Hashirama, he researches about ways to defeat him. He either had previous knowledge or learns about Kurama and hunts him down, formulating plan A. Furthermore he either had previous knowledge or he learns about of the Sage of Six Paths / Rinnegan and the Senju / Uchiha duality, formulating plan B.

Madara enacts plan A. He returns to the Leaf and challenges Hashirama with a fight. Somewhere in the middle of it, Kurama is thrown into the mix. Hashirama gains control of Kurama in some way and either seals it right away or seals it later within Mito. Anyway, Madara realises he can't defeat Hashirama, so he enacts plan B, stealing some of his DNA. He forges his death and escapes with it. 

Somewhere, Madara starts research on unlocking the Rinnegan. We know that this research isn't simple. It cannot be simple grafting, otherwise Danzo's Sharingans and Tobi's right eye would have morphed into Rinnegan and not remain Sharingans. So Madara conducts a lot of experiments. A) Zetsu is created at some point. B) Madara finds a young Uzumaki and gives him his own eyes (not Izuna's) with some method attached to it, to see if they switch to the Rinnegan. Nothing happens and Madara leaves to sulk elsewhere and experiment some more. A) can be before or after B).

Madara finds the Rain orphans running about in some kind of rebel group and he realises that Nagato does have the Rinnegan, they awoken during a lot of stress. Madara is confident that whatever method he used on Nagato worked, so he's going to experiment on himself this time. However, he also acknowledges that he's getting old, and that he can't possibly destroy his whole clan nor the village nor take over the world at this rate. He becomes worried. He spurns an otherwise relatively harmless group to be serious about their plight and Yahiko forms Akatsuki as a legitimate organisation, with an objective, and helps him run it from the shadows as an advisor. He then plans with Nagato to revive him once he dies with Rinne Tensei, to which he agrees. At some point, Madara takes over the Hidden Mist and also reigns that from the shadows.

In some baddass fight we'll never hear about, Madara loses an eye (perhaps uses Izanami on Yagura?). He starts scouting with Zetsu the Uchihas that go out in missions, in hopes to snatch one and get their Sharingan. Sometime later, Zetsu warns him that he found a perfect candidate. As they reach a badly injured Obito. Madara notices how Obito resembles his little brother Izuna and instead of killing Obito and taking over his eye, he nurses him back to health with the help of Zetsu.

Obito is grateful that these two help him, albeit he doesn't know of their true motives. When he learns about it, he manages to run away, back to the Leaf. There, he finds that Kakashi failed to protect Rin and she is dead. He cannot confront anyone, so he returns to Madara and Zetsu, who he has grown close to. There, Madara brainwashes him into accepting that the Will of Fire sucks and that it brings more misery than happiness. Obito agrees and he notices he now has MS. Madara fills him in on his plan for destroying the Leaf and the Uchiha. Obito believes Madara's methods are crude, but doesn't say anything. Madara starts wearing a mask, to prepare Obito to take over Akatsuki when he dies.

Gaining knowledge that Kushina is about to give birth, Madara plans to attack the village and gain back Kurama. He gives Obito this mission because he can no longer fight properly and Minato is a very powerful. Obito, giving himself the name of Tobi, attacks the Leaf village, using Madara's mask to impersonate him. We all know how that turned out. BTW Kurama either exclaims YOU! because he feels like it, or he sees Sharingan / hatred and thinks it's Madara. Suck it up, bitches. Anyway, licking his wounds, Tobi goes back. He has failed. Much to his surprise Madara ain't even mad. He ruffles his head. It will work out next time, Madara promises. I'll be here to help you too, when I'm stronger. This time, I'll protect you Izuna. Obito falls into the emotional trap much like me. 

Madara is outed by Kisame as the man behind Yagura. Kisame ain't even mad either and joins Akatsuki, believing in Madara's objective of a brand new world.

Itachi approaches Akatsuki via unknown methods and knowledge. Perhaps via Orochimaru. Madara promises him that he'll help him dispose of his clan. At least one thing will be accomplished before he dies. Madara prepares this mission by upgrading his Sharingan to the Rinnegan, which he hadn't done before because he's aware it shortens a person's lifespan. The Uchiha massacre takes place and Itachi joins the Akatsuki, where he has a bitchfight with Orochimaru, who leaves swearing he'll get Itachi's bro for this. Madara feels his death rapidly approaching due to the use of the Rinnegan, and he "disperses" the Akatsuki.

Tobi feels sadness. Madara might have been a bastard, but he was his bastard. He promises he won't back down from his plan and impersonates him 24/7. He is Madara or he is no one. He trains hard on his own and with Zetsu, so he can take over Akatsuki in the future. At the beginning of part II, Akatsuki becomes active again. Tobi partners with Deidara, so he can supervise Akatsuki without being outed as their leader from the shadows. He also switches Madara's much crueler plan into the Eternal Tsukyomi one. He kind of ditches Madara too due to changing the plan, or then prepares to ressurrect him later.

Blah blah blah, the rest is history.


----------



## PDQ (Aug 12, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> So you're telling me short haired Tobi and long haired "Tobi" are the same?


Obviously...


> LOL the long haired guy DIDNT EVEN HAVE A MASK ON.


Masks can be taken off pretty easily.  He doesn't wear them 24/7.
Link removed
He had the long hair with the same exact mask as fighting Minato when talking to Itachi.


> He starts off with short hair, then goes to long hair mode for the uchiha massacre and Kiri village incident, and now is back to short hair. Finally, the only character I know of on your list and one that actually makes sense is Sakura. That's about it, and she had reason to cut her hair. I doubt people like Tobi have time to groom there hair so he can be a pimp or something.



Sakura changed her hair from short(during Academy days with Ino) to long(beginning of manga) to short(during Chuunin exam to end of Part 1) to long(during Tsunade training flashback) to short (beginning of part 2).  That's 4 styles in 3 years

And that's just in a few years.  How many *decades* has Tobi had to change his hair style?
It's not even grooming, it's just being too lazy to cut it more than once every 5 years.  Hair grows on it's own.  If it starts out short, in a few years it'll be long without you doing anything and then if you cut it again, it'll be short again.  It's not magic.


----------



## Blur (Aug 12, 2012)

Genjutsu is prank? Since when? You want to tell me that Kakashi is incompetent? Or Sasuke? Or Danzo?
Because he cant Genjutsu everyone at the same time.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 12, 2012)

i see my plotholes have become gospel :ho


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 12, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i see my plotholes have become gospel :ho



Only to the average idiot in denial. And lacking deductive reasoning or logical thinkimg


----------



## Algol (Aug 12, 2012)

ah yeah, because tobi's facade as madara was enough to control nagato and konan and by extension akatsuki after madara's death, and now when he revealed himself to kisame tobi wanted to show a different face than madara, the all powerful uchiha, who happened to run the mist and meet kisame in the past

it's called henge. academy students learn this technique

Link removed

doesn't mean that student is also iruka

(i'm not saying that is what it was when tobi took his mask off for kisame, but it's a possibility. he doesn't need to be the same man as the long-haired guy at all if kishi doesn't want him to be)


----------



## NW (Aug 12, 2012)

Tobi is Obito. Ya gotta deal with it!


----------



## Sugiru93 (Aug 13, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Only to the average idiot in denial. And lacking deductive reasoning or logical thinking



Let's take it easy w/ the insults here. Something debatable like this can start fights really easy (God knows how many times it's happened on this forum, w/ this topic ). I read your lists & alot of stuff you post seems plausible. But there are some things I wanna bring up.



Mistshadow said:


> He was saved by Madara and LIVED because of the Zetsu goo body parts, we've already seen Tobi heal himself and replace parts in minutes with them. Changing beliefs ISNT impossible, he just had a traumatic experience, Trauma changes people, like it or not...



How can he be saved by Madara? Madara was long dead at this point. Having the Rinnegan just before he died didn't make him invincible as Kabuto can attest to. And Obito just had a very heart to heart moment w/ his team before his death. Over time he can become emotionally different & reject what had been said & thought at that moment, but a few seconds after Kakashi & Rin left? IDK about that. And say Obito did feel betrayed by what had happened there, would that be enough to activate his MS right there as he was dying? Even if he did get his MS & teleport himself to the other dimension (which BTW I have no idea if it has a name) he'd just bleed to death there. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't think the Uchiha have the advanced healing factor that their counterparts (the Uzumaki/Senju) have. And even w/ it he'd still probably die in the dimension.



Mistshadow said:


> Kakashi has Kamui which allows him to send things to A pocket dimension from a distance with Obito's right eye.
> Tobi has S/T jutsu that allows him to teleport or go intangible by accessing A pocket dimension in the left eye. conveniently the one to mirror Kakashi's. To say both S/T jutsus are not related is by definition being in denial. And ignorant of the strong possibility that they are both from the same source.



The two jutsu being related is absolute truth. But the third databook (if someone knows where one could find it it'd be a great help as I can't find it anywhere translated) throws a hint that Kamui can be activated by more than one MS user. Meaning Kamui can be something like Susanoo; MS users who get it have different versions of it. While that in itself isn't total proof that Tobi/= Obito, I don't think it's something people should pass off as "unimportant".


----------



## Easley (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi is Obito. Ya gotta deal with it!


Maybe you should wait till the mask is off before gloating too much... you know, in case there's a twist. 

We've already been fooled once; Tobi is an accomplished actor and liar. I won't take anything for granted.


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

*Tobi is Mizuki*

Guys I have been developing this theory for quite some time. There are multiple plausible reasons to believe that this is true and I will outline them for you here:

1) Mizuki was obviously a traitor to the village of konoha and was interested in its rare possessions (aka the sharingan). This explains how tobi has the Sharingan.

2) Tobi has a different appearance from mizuki as he was using his true appearance in his attempts to infiltrate Konoha and test naruto. The black hair and face presented by kishi are the result of a jutsu altering his physical appearance.

3) The scroll was a secondary goal of his to steal and help fund akatsuki. But the primary reason he went was to determine the skill of Minato's son (who had defeated him in combat). This explains why he appeared weak in this scenario. if he was too OP he couldnt properly test naruto.

3)The reason you don't see Mizuki between the beginning and his debut as tobi was partly a plot device to draw away suspicion from Mizuki to make Tobi's reveal all the more surprising and his nature to hide within the shadows.

4) As shown by Mizuki's "tiger" transformation is a result of his physical appearance altering jutsu and the increase in his ability is a result of him using his chakra at a slightly higher level. This was done as to give a reason for his rise in strength to determine rate of growth of naruto.

this is my extensive theory on why Tobi is actually Mizuki.

dealwithit.jpg


----------



## Babby (Aug 13, 2012)

No just no. Tobi is too good to be Mizuki. Anyway Mizuki isn't that smart. How did he find Obito? How did he get his eye? How did he give Nagato Rinnegan? How did he control Kurama to attack Konoha? How did he control Yondaime Mizukage? (Well It's either him or real Madara).


----------



## Austin (Aug 13, 2012)

Also, the fact that he is the first villain so he must be the final one too...


----------



## Brian (Aug 13, 2012)

The Tiger transformation is a result of mixing Hashirama's DNA, Zetsu cells, and the Sharingan.


----------



## Undead (Aug 13, 2012)

Enough of these "Tobi is" threads please.


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

Pyrossword said:


> No just no. Tobi is too good to be Mizuki. Anyway Mizuki isn't that smart. How did he find Obito? How did he get his eye? How did he give Nagato Rinnegan? How did he control Kurama to attack Konoha? How did he control Yondaime Mizukage? (Well It's either him or real Madara).



1) He found Obito by tracing Minato's life, seeing as how Minato was an important factor of his plans it only made sense. Plus his extensive knowledge of the sharingan make it plausible for him to know of obito.

2)He got his eye by retrieving the one not taken by Kakashi, he was crushed but his eye is never explained as gone. He then used zetsu cells to replicate a duplicate eye or had another uchihas sharingan.

3)He gave Nagato the Rinnegan as he was active prior to his appearance in konoha so it still fits within the mangas flow.

4)He could control the Mizukage by using the sharingan within his possession.


----------



## Babby (Aug 13, 2012)

But where did he find the Rinnegan?


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

Pyrossword said:


> But where did he find the Rinnegan?



He could have obtained it from the Sage of Sixth Paths. It is very clear on Tobi's level of intelligence with the Ten Tails path. He could then in theory be able to locate his body.

Plus madara has shown someone with a sharingan can develop the Rinnegan, he could take a non assuming uchichas sharingan and develop it and the give it to nagato.


----------



## Babby (Aug 13, 2012)

This theory is far fetched. Anyway where in the world would he find Rikudo's body? You don't think that it will be just berried in some random Graveyard?


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

Pyrossword said:


> This theory is far fetched. Anyway where in the world would he find Rikudo's body? You don't think that it will be just berried in some random Graveyard?



I'm sure with SOSP's importance to the Narutoverse he would be buried in some sort of temple. 

Plus my second theory is highly possible.

Kinjutsu could develop the sharingan into the rinnegan.


----------



## Babby (Aug 13, 2012)

Well anything is possible.


----------



## NW (Aug 13, 2012)

No.

Mizuki isn't fit to be final villain.


----------



## Shiny (Aug 13, 2012)

The tiger transformation wasn't from one of the horrible naruto fillers?


----------



## Rax (Aug 13, 2012)

Paragon said:


> Enough of these "Tobi is" threads please.



Trying to shake off the topic?

I think you're Toby


----------



## Austin (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No.
> 
> Mizuki isn't fit to be final villain.



Neither is Obito.


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No.
> 
> Mizuki isn't fit to be final villain.



Tobi's masks favor the color orange just like tiger mizuki, the connection is there.


----------



## NW (Aug 13, 2012)

Austin said:
			
		

> Neither is Obito.


Yes he is. He's the only one fit.



			
				Son Goku said:
			
		

> Tobi's masks favor the color orange just like tiger mizuki, the connection is there.


Wasn't Tiger Mizuki from one of those shit Naruto fillers? It's not canon.


----------



## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 13, 2012)

This would be an awesome thread..

If it didn't use filler as evidence.

You disappointed me when that bit came up


----------



## Shiny (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *Yes he is. He's the only one fit.*



really? And about your tobi=minato thread? how's going?


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

Well if you want to ignore the possibility of Kishi using filler as canon. Which is highly possible considering it happened with Dragon Ball Z then I will not use them. But even without using Tiger Mizuki in my theory it is still possible.

Mizuki is Tobi's true appearance.

He was testing Naruto/Earning Akatsuki money

Gave Nagato the Rinnegan with a developed Sharingan to Rinnegan

Took Obito's Sharingan to gain access to Time/Space Jutsu

Mizuki could have clearly escaped after being caught as it was his intention for Naruto to find him.


----------



## leonejoey (Aug 13, 2012)

No no no just nooooooooo- mizuki is so irrelevant hes not even in ANY of the naruto games


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

leonejoey said:


> No no no just nooooooooo- mizuki is so irrelevant hes not even in ANY of the naruto games



Games aren't canon bro.


----------



## NW (Aug 13, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> Maybe you should wait till the mask is off before gloating too much... you know, in case there's a twist.
> 
> We've already been fooled once; Tobi is an accomplished actor and liar. I won't take anything for granted.


Tobi being Obito IS the twist. Have you read the last 4 chapters?

Tobi being Madara was to through us off. Kishi's not gonna pull that kinda thing again. It's show time for real, bitches!

Tobi being Obito is actually mandatory for the plot to be complete. Too tired to explain, but even if I type it out fully later, the haters won't listen cuz they're in denial.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys have even been following this manga to know the themes and parallels in it and what it's about.

Going by the established parallels, it's pretty much impossible for Tobi not to be Obito.


----------



## leonejoey (Aug 13, 2012)

Son Goku said:


> Games aren't canon bro.



Exactly my point! He isnt even important enough to be in non-cannon material anymore


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

leonejoey said:


> Exactly my point! He isnt even important enough to be in non-cannon material anymore



Your point is irrelevant as the games have no direct impact on the manga.

The filler from the anime is more likely as it more closely related to the source material.

your argument is invalid.


----------



## Easley (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi being Obito IS the twist. Have you read the last 4 chapters?


A twist is only effective if you don't see it coming. That's the whole point, and there's a few ways Tobi could be Obito but still different enough to surprise us. How much of his body is Zetsu goo? It can't have been in good condition. What about Hashirama's face? Where is that? He'll most likely have it.

If he's just plain old Obito I won't be impressed.



> Going by the established parallels, it's pretty much impossible for Tobi not to be Obito.


Possibly, but that doesn't rule out other characters who would also fit this theme. I just think there will be more to the reveal than a simple Tobi=Obito. That's not Kishi's style. There's always some crazy aspect involved.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

*All Obito theories debunked.*


Wasn't Obito what, 12, during this?

And if you guys are gonna say, "lawlz dat wuz madara u stoopid head," then:



Bonus!:




_Now if Kishi still decides to make Tobi Obito, then it's 100% confirmed that he's a shitty writer._


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> _Now if Kishi still decides to make Tobi Obito, then it's 100% confirmed that *he's a shitty writer*._



That ship has sailed...


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

Palpatine said:


> That ship has sailed...



I know, but then we'd hopefully get to make a sticky'd, official thread for it with examples from the manga.


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Or the real Madara simply told Kisame about his plan; Tobi taking his role over?


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Or the real Madara simply told Kisame about his plan; Tobi taking his role over?



 
Because Tobi showing his face to Kisame, a guy who's never seen it before (if you think that was Madara), will achieve anything. I think the page is kinda obvious in what its implying. Kisame accidentally refers to Tobi as Mizukage right after he sees his face.


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

Maybe Obito just looks like Madara now. That Zetsu goo can shapeshift after all


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

The Tobitowank explanation is "There were multiple Tobis. That was Madara!". My response: "Bullshit!".


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Because Tobi showing his face to Kisame, a guy who's never seen it before (if you think that was Madara), will achieve anything. I think the page is kinda obvious in what its implying.


Masked guy; I am Madara
Kisame: *Show me yourself*, i dont believe you, i believe hes long dead already. 
You wanna imply that Kisame didnt know how the real Madara looked like?


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

Palpatine said:


> Maybe Obito just looks like Madara now. That Zetsu goo can shapeshift after all


----------



## Shiny (Aug 13, 2012)

Obito was using Genjutsu on him to think its madara,Tobito theory is still alive


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


>



He could have Madara's chakra


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 13, 2012)

It's a bit soon to suggest that the theory is debunked when we haven't seen sufficient evidence to disprove Tobi = Obito.

Like I said before, for all we know, the alternate dimension could alter time/aging. We still don't know all the properties of box-world.

Alternatively, the Tobi that attacked Minato could have been a Zetsu, given that his body was reduced to the same liquid by Minato's Rasengan. That didn't happen to this iteration of Tobi when he was hit.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Masked guy; I am Madara
> Kisame: *Show me yourself*, i dont believe you, i believe hes long dead already.
> You wanna imply that Kisame didnt know how the real Madara looked like?



"All right, *it is up to you whether you trust me or not.*" And Tobi did have the hair (hell, even the hair's a little different) and eyes to match the description.

And you think Kurama would recognize _Obito_? 



Palpatine said:


> He could have Madara's chakra





Well, he does have Hashirama chakra too... what if Kurama saw Tobi as...Edo Madara!!!!?1!


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Like I said before, for all we know, the alternate dimension could alter time/aging. We still don't know all the properties of box-world.


Except it doesn't. Because then how would Tobi be able to seamlessly move between the two dimensions?

Also, Fuu and Torune were in there for weeks. For Obit to have been able to age that much in such short a time, Fuu and Torune would have to have aged by a few years, at least. Also, if time is different in there, then I doubt Tobi would've kept them alive seeing as how he'd have to constantly feed them for a long period of time.



Battoumaru said:


> Alternatively, the Tobi that attacked Minato could have been a Zetsu, given that his body was reduced to the same liquid by Minato's Rasengan. That did0n't happen to this iteration of Tobi when he was hit.


Why would that Zetsu look just like Tobi, then? Also, that Tobi used Tobi's signature Jutsu and we *know* that Zetsu cannot copy Jutsu. The white Zetsu clone Neji was unable to use Byakugan to locate Sakura and Shizune and had to resort to asking people, which is what raised Sakura's suspicion to begin with. All of the clones resorted to basic Taijutsu instead of using the Ninjutsu of the people they'd copied.


----------



## Hexa (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Wasn't Obito what, 12, during this?


No.  We don't really know when that event happened.  From Kisame's apparent age, it probably took place a few years after the Kyuubi invasion.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

Hexa said:


> No.  We don't really know when that event happened.  From Kisame's apparent age, it probably took place a few years after the Kyuubi invasion.



From what I gathered, it happened during the 3rd Ninja World War. I might be wrong though. And I'd say Kisame looks a good 15-20 years younger.


----------



## αce (Aug 13, 2012)

Logic.
Don't use it.


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> "All right, *it is up to you whether you trust me or not.*" And Tobi did have the hair (hell, even the hair's a little different) and eyes to match the description.
> 
> And you think Kurama would recognize _Obito_?


Like i said Kisame clearly knew how the real Madara looked like, his own words confirmed it.

Wait did he?
1: If theres any character Kyuubi could recognize it most likely Obito, since Kushina was Minato's wife, so she could have been easly around Minato's team thus meaning Kyuubi feeling Obito's presence.
2: To bad he actually didn't, the Kyuubi has aready keept reffering to Tobi as the masked man several times in the current chapter.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Logic.
> Don't use it.



Are you with me or against me?


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

I definitely believe Tobi is a hybrid of some kind. Him having Madara's chakra would make sense.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Logic.
> Don't use it.



This.

If  there was logic and Naruto everyone would have died already from Mountain busting technique spam.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Like i said Kisame clearly knew how the real Madara looked like, his own words confirmed it.
> 
> Wait did he?
> 1: If theres any character Kyuubi could recognize it most likely Obito, since Kushina was Minato's wife, so she could have been easly around Minato's team thus meaning Kyuubi feeling Obito's presence.
> 2: To bad he actually didn't, the Kyuubi has aready keept reffering to Tobi as the masked man several times in the current chapter.



Not necessarily. He might have had a brief description (semi-dark skin, long hair, Sharingan).

1. It looked like Kurama only recognized him when Tobi began controlling him, but w/e
2. Kishi-troll, I guess. 

Wanna agree to disagree and wait till we find out who Tobi is for sure? I'm grasping at straws here tbh, LOL.


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 13, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Except it doesn't. Because then how would Tobi be able to seamlessly move between the two dimensions?
> 
> Also, Fuu and Torune were in there for weeks. For Obit to have been able to age that much in such short a time, Fuu and Torune would have to have aged by a few years, at least. Also, if time is different in there, then I doubt Tobi would've kept them alive seeing as how he'd have to constantly feed them for a long period of time.
> 
> ...



Who says that time moves at a constant rate in the box-dimension?

Who says that people NEED to eat in the box-dimension?

Zetsu can't copy Jutsu?

Ahem. Did he not copy Kisame's transformation AND his Suiton Ninjutsu?

Now, if you're saying he can't copy Kekkei Genkai, I understand that. That can be worked around also, should Kishi even realize that the plot-hole is there, given those circumstances.

But that's not my point. What my point was is this: Kishi can do whatever the 'eff he wants to do with Tobi/Madara/Zetsu/Obito. Remember when it was "impossible for Itachi to be a good guy"? Yeah. Remember when Orochimaru got "sealed for eternity"? Yeah. Remember when Madara was Tobi, and even the crappy Databook said so? Yeah.


----------



## αce (Aug 13, 2012)

Tobito is shit. I'm with you.

Also don't forget, Madara died when Nagato was a child. This was solidifed the moment he referred to him as a brat and commented on how he "finally" grew up. Nagato's eyes are Madara's.  Nagato is older than Minato, who himself is much older than Obito.

If Madara died when Nagato was a child, then there's no possible way Obito could have had a personal connection with Madara as Kishimoto himself stated. When Tobi says that Nagato's eyes were his to begin with, it's very well possible he's Izuna.

I'm sticking with the Izuna or Hybrid theory. Anything is better than Obito.


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Not necessarily. He might have had a brief description (semi-dark skin, long hair, Sharingan).
> 
> 1. It looked like Kurama only recognized him when Tobi began controlling him, but w/e
> 2. Kishi-troll, I guess.
> ...


What are you trying to deny? 
Kisame clearly said *show me yourself* when the masked guy said that he was Madara.
Why would he say that if he doesnt know how the real Madara looked like.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Who says that time moves at a constant rate in the box-dimension?
> 
> Who says that people NEED to eat in the box-dimension?
> 
> ...



Zetsu switched with Kisame after Kisame used any and every Suiton he ever did.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Are you with me or against me?



Only a sith deals in absolutes.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobito is shit. I'm with you.
> 
> Also don't forget, Madara died when Nagato was a child. This was solidifed the moment he referred to him as a brat and commented on how he "finally" grew up. Nagato's eyes are Madara's.  Nagato is older than Minato, who himself is much older than Obito.
> 
> ...



Damn, thought out post with good reasoning behind it. Mind if I use this quote? 



loool3 said:


> What are you trying to deny?
> Kisame clearly said *show me yourself* when the masked guy said that he was Madara.
> Why would he say that if he doesnt know how the real Madara looked like.



VV All I've got. 


> Also don't forget, Madara died when Nagato was a child. This was solidifed the moment he referred to him as a brat and commented on how he "finally" grew up. Nagato's eyes are Madara's.  Nagato is older than Minato, who himself is much older than Obito.
> 
> If Madara died when Nagato was a child, then there's no possible way Obito could have had a personal connection with Madara as Kishimoto himself stated. When Tobi says that Nagato's eyes were his to begin with, it's very well possible he's Izuna.
> 
> I'm sticking with the Izuna or Hybrid theory. Anything is better than Obito.


----------



## Hexa (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> From what I gathered, it happened during the 3rd Ninja World War. I might be wrong though. And I'd say Kisame looks a good 15-20 years younger.


Kisame was 32, so if he was 20-years younger there, he'd have been 12.  I don't know where you gathered that it happened during the 3rd ninja world war.  There's nothing said about it in the manga.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Who says that time moves at a constant rate in the box-dimension?
> 
> Who says that people NEED to eat in the box-dimension?


So you'll grasp at any desperate straws?



Battoumaru said:


> Zetsu can't copy Jutsu?
> 
> Ahem. Did he not copy Kisame's transformation AND his Suiton Ninjutsu?


Nope. We later found out that Kisame switched with the Zetsu clone and hid within Samehada when Killer Bee obscured the water dome with his ink bullets. Starting from that moment on, "Kisame" fought using only Samehada and Taijutsu. While zetsu!Kisame *did* fuse with Samehada, he used absolutely zero Ninjutsu.

And since we know that zetsu!Kisame planned on losing that fight on purpose, we can also safely assume that the ostensibly Shark Water Bullet right before he died was a fake-out.

*On an unrelated note*, as for when Kisame's flashback scene with tobi!Yagura occurred, Kisame was 6 years older than Kakashi and Obito, which means that he could been as old as 19 in that flashback and it still could've occurred prior to Obito's death.

The important point however is this:
* Zabuza, at approximately age 14, massacred the entire graduation class of the Bloody Mist, necessitating the abolishing of the barbaric tradition of the Graduation Massacre at year later.
* At the time that Zabuza was 14 (and since he was the same age as Kakashi, so was Kakashi and so would Obito have been), the Graduation Massacre had been in place for a considerable amount of time.
* The Graduation Massacre practice was instated as part of the Bloody Mist Era, which began when Yagura came to power.
* Yagura was controlled by someone throughout the entire Bloody Mist Era. We're later shown that this was Tobi.

So, unless *someone else* controlled Yagura for *quite some time* 'til Obito's death and then passed the task on to Tobito, that Tobi (who looks *exactly the same as current Tobi*) *cannot* have been Obito.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 13, 2012)

Hexa said:


> I don't know where you gather that, but Kisame was 32, so if he was 20-years younger there, he'd have been 12.



Ah. Well I guess he was probably 18-25, so around 10 years earlier. That'd make Obito around.........19...


Well I'll be damned. It sort of fits.  But I don't see a 19 year old getting a hell lot of wrinkles in 10 years. And idk, I'm just not _feeling _it. 

And there's still the whole Madara + Nagato timeline thing that Ace posted.


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobito is shit. I'm with you.
> 
> Also don't forget, Madara died when Nagato was a child. This was solidifed the moment he referred to him as a brat and commented on how he "finally" grew up. Nagato's eyes are Madara's.  Nagato is older than Minato, who himself is much older than Obito.
> 
> ...


Its not confirmed that Madara died when Nagato was young.
Madara just didnt meet the adult Nagato.
Its funny that a long haired masked man was around Nagato's country controling the Mizukage, i bet you he wasnt just having fun there but rather looking for the adult Nagato and eventualy died meanwhile without meeting the adult Nagato.
The Rinnegan comment was clearly told in Madara's perspective, should have been already clearly obvious after Madara showd up with the Rinnegan.

Not only that don't forget that Tobi also told Konan that he told Yahiko to create the Akatsuki.
I bet you it was also in Madara's perspective= Madara going to Nagato's country to find him, first he finds Yahiko and tells him to create Akatsuki, second he controles the Mizukage and invites Kisame to Akatsuki and third further off paneled events which leads Madara dying without him meeting the adult Nagato> Madara gets Edo Tensei and comments about Nagato being grown.



Inferno said:


> Ah. Well I guess he was probably 18-25, so  around 10 years earlier. That'd make Obito around.........19...
> 
> 
> Well I'll be damned. It sort of fits.  But I don't see a 19 year old getting a hell lot of wrinkles in 10 years. And idk, I'm just not _feeling _it.
> ...


Everyone gets wrinkle/scars when a rock with a weight of a few tons falls on you. 

Wanna see how a Tobito looks without these scars?



Omg hey i found another panel which on Tobito has non of these scars in his opposed face side, and hey why is he standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders on it could it be a refference to Obito?
Yes duh because it is (And i didnt even edit anything in here) ; 

Instead of trying to deny a small few points, try to deny these awesome facts together with Tobi's 1 eyed holed mask name/eye, Kakasis year getting delayed 3x, and all the other Tobito basic facts.


----------



## Tim (Aug 13, 2012)

Improbableh, but not impossibleh.


----------



## Austin (Aug 13, 2012)

and Kyon know everything.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Its not confirmed that Madara died when Nagato was young.
> Madara just didnt meet the adult Nagato.
> Its funny that a long haired masked man was around Nagato's country controling the Mizukage, i bet you he wasnt just having fun there but rather looking for the adult Nagato and eventualy died meanwhile without meeting the adult Nagato.
> The Rinnegan comment was clearly told in Madara's perspective, should have been already clearly obvious after Madara showd up with the Rinnegan.
> ...


This is a manga where most characters are drawn pretty similarly except for their eyes, noses, mouths and hair. And the fact remains that Tobi's eyes *look nothing like Obito's and every bit like Madara's and Izuna's*.


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Yuna said:


> This is a manga where most characters are drawn pretty similarly except for their eyes, noses, mouths and hair. And the fact remains that Tobi's eyes *look nothing like Obito's and every bit like Madara's and Izuna's*.


Uh yeah, meanwhile the face looks completely as Obito's.
And uh since when had Madara 4-5 bags, he had one therefore its looks nothing alike.
Your just grasping at straws.
And seriously Madara?
He's Ed't wake up already, and a clone doesnt age.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> Wasn't Obito what, 12, during this?
> 
> And if you guys are gonna say, "lawlz dat wuz madara u stoopid head," then:



Actually,

11 years before Zabuza met with team 7, he was about Naruto's age when he and Zabuza met, which was about 12, at that time.





If Obito is 30, then he would've apparently, in my opinion, been about 16 when Zabuza was about 12, with the point being that he could've been about 16 at the time that you're saying that he was certainly 12.



Inferno said:


> Bonus!:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious, Kurama thought that Sasuke was _someone_ _else_ until he _actually_ recognizes him.

*Tobi*



*Sasuke*


*Spoiler*: __ 










Does this automatically mean that Sasuke _is_ the person who Kurama initially believes that the chakra is from?

There's also the possibility that Kurama only recognizes Madara's _jutsu_.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 13, 2012)

Those events took place after the Kyuubi attack.

I don't see what you're getting at.



Yuna said:


> This is a manga where most characters are drawn pretty similarly except for their eyes, noses, mouths and hair. And the fact remains that Tobi's eyes *look nothing like Obito's and every bit like Madara's and Izuna's*.



Why are you hanging onto this even though it's clearly untrue?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 13, 2012)

Palpatine said:


> Maybe Obito just looks like Madara now. That Zetsu goo can shapeshift after all



He didn't change his hair though.  That's 100% proof he's Obito.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Why are you hanging onto this even though it's clearly untrue?


Show me a single panel where Obito's eyes look like Tobi's. Every single time we've seen Tobi's eyes, it's shaped the exact same way as Madara's. The upper eyelid even matches up. This goes for Izuna as well, seeing as how they have the same eyes (Madara has the little "wrinkles", though).


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Easley said:


> Possibly, but that doesn't rule out other characters who would also fit this theme. I just think there will be more to the reveal than a simple Tobi=Obito. That's not Kishi's style. There's always some crazy aspect involved.


But Kakashis year cant happen without Obito. ^^
Even the recent stuff is not enough to call it the Kakashis year.


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

Do we even know how old Nagato is?


----------



## Talis (Aug 13, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Show me a single panel where Obito's eyes look like Tobi's. Every single time we've seen Tobi's eyes, it's shaped the exact same way as Madara's. The upper eyelid even matches up. This goes for Izuna as well, seeing as how they have the same eyes (Madara has the little "wrinkles", though).




And again, the first 2 pic shits on every single theory.
Sutol in our heart.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Palpatine said:


> Do we even know how old Nagato is?


We can guess. Nagato was around 10-12 during the Second Shinobi World War. At this time, the Sannin were around 25-30-ish. Tsunade is now 54, which means that Nagato was around 40-45 or so when he died.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 13, 2012)

I can't accept tobi being obito at any cost. Tobi is some bastard using obito's eye. I am pretty sure that obito's eye is not destroyed. He was able to see enemy arrival and kakashi killed that guy.

I also like that idea of obito somehow survived the rocks and tobi tortured him and stole his sharingan. ( This is not my eye. Someone posted in other thread)


----------



## Sesshy55 (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi being Obito IS the twist. Have you read the last 4 chapters?
> 
> Tobi being Madara was to through us off. Kishi's not gonna pull that kinda thing again. It's show time for real, bitches!
> 
> ...



When they reveal his identity soon and reveal that he's not Obito, I'm going to message you every day until I die about how you were wrong.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 13, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Only to the average idiot in denial. And lacking deductive reasoning or logical thinkimg



let this be advice to others to take the high road



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi being Obito is actually mandatory for the plot to be complete.



oh my goodness  if thats what you think then youre insane 



Easley said:


> I just think there will be more to the reveal than a simple Tobi=Obito. That's not Kishi's style. There's always some crazy aspect involved.



i agree... Kishi doesnt understand the word "simple"



loool3 said:


> But Kakashis year cant happen without Obito. ^^
> Even the recent stuff is not enough to call it the Kakashis year.



Tobi will be revealed as Obito's father... Uchiha Kagami 

take solace in the fact that Obito will at least be involved



Sesshy55 said:


> When they reveal his identity soon and reveal that he's not Obito, I'm going to message you every day until I die about how you were wrong.



lol... if he is wrong i dont think the guy will ever show up again


----------



## Vox (Aug 13, 2012)

It's Izuna. IZUNA WITH OBITO'S EYE!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 13, 2012)

1. Kisame is like 2 years older than Obito so the Madara/Kisame thing happened after Kyuubi attack.
2. Obito is not drawn old at all.  Look at all the old people they're faces are all sunken or squared compared to their young faces.  Only Mifune is close but Obito's wrinkles are very random at the bottom and irregular length.  Mifune's are uniformed and his face is sunken at an angle.  Obito's face is smooth and young on his left side as we see from the back of his face.
3. We don't know when or how Madara died nor do we know the relationship with Nagato or how Nagato got his eyes.  We have Tobi saying he(pretending to be Madara) gave Nagato his eyes but we also have Nagato awakening his rinnegan on panel.  Nagato has yet to be proven a liar and has visual evidence and Tobi and Obito are proven liars.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 13, 2012)

plotholes debunked this theory years ago

Kishi is using its fandom to create the shitstorms


----------



## Lawliet (Aug 13, 2012)

My thought about Tobi..
I don't think Tobi = Obito for 2 reasons..
_-Snip-_
2nd idea.. Tobi's age..
We all kinda of forgot an important conversation that happened a long time ago..
Naruto and the old big frog conversation, he told naruto about the prophecy and said that naruto will fight a young man who posses power in his eyes, and naruto immediately assumed it's sasuky and said something like he knows or whatever. and the frog was like, you know? However, i"m not really sure about the " young man ", im lazy to go check, but if that what was said, then Tobi is a young man, means he's not madara, he's not obito cuz obito would be the same age as kakashi, even though kakashi can be considered as a young man, debatable..
So, what I think is, that old frog knows who tobi is, however, I really don't think it's obito for many reasons, We will find out who EXACTLY he is soon..


----------



## iJutsu (Aug 13, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Alternatively, the Tobi that attacked Minato could have been a Zetsu, given that his body was reduced to the same liquid by Minato's Rasengan. That didn't happen to this iteration of Tobi when he was hit.



The decapitated Zetsu didn't melt in front of A/Bee either.


----------



## Shattering (Aug 13, 2012)

Hexa said:


> No.  We don't really know when that event happened.  From Kisame's apparent age, it probably took place a few years after the Kyuubi invasion.



I would say that it was after Uchiha Massacre and Itachi joining Akatsuki


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 13, 2012)

Is there evidence that Tobi is Obito in body? Yes.

Is there evidence that Tobi is Obito in soul? No, in fact evidence exists to the contrary.

So far the evidence is pointing toward Tobi being an as yet unrevealed character using Obito's body.


----------



## jdbzkh (Aug 13, 2012)

Honestly there really is no reason for the past "Tobi" to actually be Tobi, we now know that Madara knew Nagato. So at the very least he lived long enough to transfer his eyes. So what if Kisame met the real Madara and Tobi was simply his apprentice. Obito being Tobi seems like its going to happen, so Madara and Zetsu could of simply found the body experiment with it and began to twist and form the evil we see now.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 13, 2012)

Thank you OP, I made a thread similar to this but Tobito wankers fail to understand:



We have three options from our posts.

1. Both guys are Tobi and therefore it is impossible that Obito is Tobi.
2. The first guy is Madara and the second guy is someone that looks VERY much like Obito...therefore it is impossible that Obito is Tobi.
3. Kishi will go down as the worst writer in history after making Tobi, Obito.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 13, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Thank you OP, I made a thread similar to this but Tobito wankers fail to understand:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize that the timeline dictates that Obito would be 16-20 during the first picture? He's only 2 years younger than Kisame and Kisame is likely an late teen or young adult.  Its very possible that Obito is both guys.  It's also possible that Kisame is told to look out for Obito and treat him as Madara or genjutsu or jutsu that changes appearance for that one unmasking.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 13, 2012)

It hurts..._right_ in the logic...

If Kishi ignores the blatant plotholes and refuses to explain anything by making Tobi=Obito, I'm done reading this manga.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 13, 2012)

Inferno said:


> _Now if Kishi still decides to make Tobi Obito, then it's 100% confirmed that he's a shitty writer._



Did you miss the last 300 chapters?

I think it's funny that some people think Tobi being Obito is worse than some of the other things that have happened in the manga.


----------



## Blur (Aug 13, 2012)

You hate Tobito and cant accept that Kisame got in a Genjutsu to think that is Madara. The explanations are there, but you refuse to accept them.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 13, 2012)

Hexa said:


> No.  We don't really know when that event happened.  From Kisame's apparent age, it probably took place a few years after the Kyuubi invasion.



Kakashi and Zabuza are the same age, so 16 years ago when Tobi attacked, Kakashi was 14-15, Tobi was in the mist when Zabuza was 9, meaning Kakashi was 9 also as was Obito at the time Tobi was manipulating Yagura, a 9 year old was manipulating Yagura??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## Kali95 (Aug 13, 2012)

My favorite are the people who try to claim that the wrinkles on Tobi's face are "scars", lol. They are clearly wrinkles, drawn the same way as all old characters in the series.


----------



## theclash123 (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm not necessarily saying i agree with this theory but checked Naruto wiki and this is Mizuki's description.

Originally, Mizuki appeared to be very polite and kind-hearted, and was described to be a sweet man by his former lover, Tsubaki. In reality,* he does not care for anything or anyone beyond his own rise in power. He takes pride in the fact that he is not bound by things like morals or teamwork, and is willing to sacrifice whatever he has to in order to complete his goals.*

Does seem to have some similarities as Tobi. I know he was transformed into an old man through using his potion and Tsunade saved him although he couldn't be a ninja anymore but this could be why as Tobi he referred to himself as a "shell of his former self".

Just putting it out there for further discussion with this theory.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 13, 2012)

Coincidence? I think not


----------



## theclash123 (Aug 13, 2012)

OK just did a little more research about what Mizuki actually translates to as i was curious. Turns out it makes this theory a little more interesting. 

The meaning of Mizuki is beautiful moon.

The name Mizuki can be translated as such: mi beautiful, tsuki moon mizuki- Beautiful moon ChaCha again soon!

I find it interesting that its tsuki moon. Could possibly have some relation to the reason Tobi wants to use tsukiyomi. As for the moon part i think that's pretty obvious how that can be related into all this.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 13, 2012)

theclash123 said:


> I'm not necessarily saying i agree with this theory but checked Naruto wiki and this is Mizuki's description.
> 
> Originally, Mizuki appeared to be very polite and kind-hearted, and was described to be a sweet man by his former lover, Tsubaki. In reality,* he does not care for anything or anyone beyond his own rise in power. He takes pride in the fact that he is not bound by things like morals or teamwork, and is willing to sacrifice whatever he has to in order to complete his goals.*
> 
> ...





Chibason said:


> Coincidence? I think not





theclash123 said:


> OK just did a little more research about what Mizuki actually translates to as i was curious. Turns out it makes this theory a little more interesting.
> 
> The meaning of Mizuki is beautiful moon.
> 
> ...


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 13, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Is there evidence that Tobi is Obito in body? Yes.
> 
> *Is there evidence that Tobi is Obito in soul? No, in fact evidence exists to the contrary.*
> 
> So far the evidence is pointing toward Tobi being an as yet unrevealed character using Obito's body.



My ass there isn't. Tobi's quoting Obito verbatim. How are you going to tell me that isn't evidence of him being Tobi.


----------



## †obitobi (Aug 13, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kakashi and Zabuza are the same age, so 16 years ago when Tobi attacked, Kakashi was 14-15, Tobi was in the mist when Zabuza was 9, meaning Kakashi was 9 also as was Obito at the time Tobi was manipulating Yagura, a 9 year old was manipulating Yagura??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL





MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Thank you OP, I made a thread similar to this but Tobito wankers fail to understand:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please listen.



Tobitobi said:


> Inferno said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't Obito what, 12, during this?
> ...



ps. Please stop with your "worst writer in history" tangent. Just because your vague sense of plausibility can't think of anything that you'd accept doesn't mean that it doesn't have a plausible explanation, much less one at all.


----------



## Thor (Aug 13, 2012)

Tobi is Obito's dad.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 13, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, it's not. Not unless Kishi doesn't explain it which we know he will. And we've already given possible explanations for it. They may not be the correct explanations, but if we, the fans can come up with a possibility, then Kishi, the author, sure can.
> 
> So, possibilities are not useless.



Hmmm, are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

If *in the end* there is a hole in the story then it's useless to give
possible explanations to cover the hole. I was not replying to anyone in particular, and you're _kinda_ repeating what I'm saying.

I have faith in Kishi. He has good reasons to those "plot holes" if Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Son Goku (Aug 13, 2012)

theclash123 said:


> I'm not necessarily saying i agree with this theory but checked Naruto wiki and this is Mizuki's description.
> 
> Originally, Mizuki appeared to be very polite and kind-hearted, and was described to be a sweet man by his former lover, Tsubaki. In reality,* he does not care for anything or anyone beyond his own rise in power. He takes pride in the fact that he is not bound by things like morals or teamwork, and is willing to sacrifice whatever he has to in order to complete his goals.*
> 
> ...





Chibason said:


> Coincidence? I think not





theclash123 said:


> OK just did a little more research about what Mizuki actually translates to as i was curious. Turns out it makes this theory a little more interesting.
> 
> The meaning of Mizuki is beautiful moon.
> 
> ...



See this theory has a tremendous amount of evidence.

Tobi is Mizuki as far as I am concerned.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 13, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> My ass there isn't. Tobi's quoting Obito verbatim. How are you going to tell me that isn't evidence of him being Tobi.



What are you talking about?


----------



## NW (Aug 13, 2012)

gjoerulv said:
			
		

> Hmmm, are you deliberately misunderstanding me?


No.



> If in the end there is a hole in the story then it's useless to give
> possible explanations to cover the hole. I was not replying to anyone in particular, and you're kinda repeating what I'm saying.


obviously. But we don't know the end so it is useful to give possible explanations.



> I have faith in Kishi. He has good reasons to those "plot holes" if Tobi is Obito.


Seems we pretty much agree.



			
				HakuGaara said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?


Do you even read this manga? or are you just in denial?



Sesshy55 said:


> When they reveal his identity soon and reveal that he's not Obito, I'm going to message you every day until I die about how you were wrong.


Sure, ignore my post and continue being ignorant.



jacamo said:


> oh my goodness  if thats what you think then youre insane


I assure you I'm quite sane. it's not my fault at all that you don't read this manga.



> lol... if he is wrong i dont think the guy will ever show up again


Bitch please! I'll haunt you forever and make you suffer for denying Tobito!



Vox said:


> It's Izuna. IZUNA WITH OBITO'S EYE!


Oh yeah. Izuna really hates Kakashi. Ya know. Kakashi let the girl Izuna loved die and all. Yeah, Izuna's gettin' all emotional around Dat Kakashi!





MonkeyDNaruto said:


> It hurts..._right_ in the logic...


Tobi being Obito is the only logical outcome.



> If Kishi ignores the blatant plotholes and refuses to explain anything by making Tobi=Obito, I'm done reading this manga.


What plotholes?

People give explanations and you refuse to accept them. You're being ignorant and hypocritical. get off if you can't debate.


----------



## Mider T (Aug 13, 2012)

If you re-read closely, he's already told us who he is, I can't believe nobody has caught it yet.


----------



## Uchiha Q (Aug 13, 2012)

Is there an up to date thread that has all of tobis appearances?


----------



## Whirlpool (Aug 13, 2012)

*Kakashi is Tobi and Obito is Kakashi, while Rin is a whore.*

You agree? Disagree? Want to find out more?

Discuss.


----------



## TS_Basilisk (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm wondering if maybe Tobi isn't Obito... but Obito's father.

Obito, already something of an outcast from the Uchiha, dies in battle. Yet his sacrifice is overshadowed by the heroics of Kakashi and his Sharingan. This probably generates even more ill will towards Obito among the Uchiha, as he gave an outsider a Sharingan. Now Obito's father sees his son ignored on one side and looked down upon by the other, despite having died a hero. And they never even bothered to bring his body back.

So he learns what he can from Kakashi and goes to find his son's body, only to discover it had already been taken... by Zetsu. Madara, despite his use of Hashirama's genes, is dying of old age and has Zetsu carrying out his orders. In the angry father, Madara sees himself and he decides to pass on his plans to this new Uchiha.

And what is the father's first act? Taking revenge on Konoha and the man who didn't protect his son: Minato.


----------



## Whirlpool (Aug 13, 2012)

Not even a cool story?


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 13, 2012)

Cool story bro.


----------



## Garrod Ran (Aug 13, 2012)

I want to find out more


----------



## Kyu (Aug 13, 2012)

Rin**


----------



## ovanz (Aug 13, 2012)

Good for you OP, at least this isn't a betting thread lol.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 14, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Do you even read this manga? or are you just in denial?



Quit avoiding the issue. Either you can state your sources or you can't, which is it?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 14, 2012)

I just gonna pull out a theory out of nowhere:

What if the Uchiha clan turned their back to Obito identical to what they did to Madara? Thats why Tobi hates Konoha:>?


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 14, 2012)

I disagree with the third part vehemently.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And again, the first 2 pic shits on every single theory.
> Sutol in our heart.


They look nothing alike aside for the "overall anime eyeshape" resemblance. In every single close-up shot of Tobi's eyes, they are identical to Madara's. And Obito's upper eyelid only resembles Tobi's in the one pic where he's got them half-closed (yet Tobi never has his half-closed).

Also, the first two pics shit on my theory? Because... they're both doing a salute? Then how come they're it using *different hands*?


----------



## Ichiurto (Aug 14, 2012)

Disagree with the First and Second part, and disagree with the Third part. Rin isn't a Western Woman, after all.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

TS_Basilisk said:


> I'm wondering if maybe Tobi isn't Obito... but Obito's father.
> 
> Obito, already something of an outcast from the Uchiha, dies in battle. Yet his sacrifice is overshadowed by the heroics of Kakashi and his Sharingan. This probably generates even more ill will towards Obito among the Uchiha, as he gave an outsider a Sharingan. Now Obito's father sees his son ignored on one side and looked down upon by the other, despite having died a hero. And they never even bothered to bring his body back.
> 
> ...



very nice... this is basically my theory 

Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami 



Escargon said:


> I just gonna pull out a theory out of nowhere:
> 
> What if the Uchiha clan turned their back to Obito identical to what they did to Madara? Thats why Tobi hates Konoha:>?



or maybe the Uchiha Clan refused to acknowledge Tobi's son (Obito) as a hero for giving his Sharingan to an outsider... hence Tobi's grudge towards the clan



or.... maybe Obito's father (Tobi) was so outraged that Minato let his son die and Kakashi got all the glory, that he wanted to plan a coup right there and then, following the war.... but the rest of the Uchiha said "lol no " 

so Tobi left with a grudge and got his revenge on Minato whilst also creating Uchiha suspicion with the Kyubi incident, followed by more revenge on his clansmen who turned their back on him with the Uchiha Clan Massacre

:WOW


----------



## Escargon (Aug 14, 2012)

The longhaired dude is Madara and Obito has Madara implanted into his face. Poor Kisame.

So basically, Obito with Madaras DNA (thats how Kabuto got Madaras DNA). Fuck everything else, i dont care.

Basically every theory got a hole cause Kishi screws things up.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 14, 2012)

I think Tobi being Kagami is harder than Tobi being Tsunade's father(Hashirama's son)


----------



## Escargon (Aug 14, 2012)

jacamo said:


> very nice... this is basically my theory
> 
> Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami
> 
> ...



Even if thats possible i would get pissed if Tobi turned out to be a new character


----------



## Keile (Aug 14, 2012)

It's Tobi or Kakashi's friend, right? I don't see how it could be anyone else. The rock ninja Obito fought was an average level Jounin.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I think Tobi being Kagami is harder than Tobi being Tsunade's father(Hashirama's son)



really? but Tsunade's parents would have been too old to take part in war at that point, so i doubt they knew about the battle of Kannabi Bridge



Escargon said:


> Even if thats possible i would get pissed if Tobi turned out to be a new character



a lot of people will be pissed whoever Tobi is... it cant be helped, the reveal been dragged on for too long, people have divided into little camps

although personally i wont be pissed, its just a manga :ho


----------



## Talis (Aug 14, 2012)

Yuna said:


> They look nothing alike aside for the "overall anime eyeshape" resemblance. In every single close-up shot of Tobi's eyes, they are identical to Madara's. And Obito's upper eyelid only resembles Tobi's in the one pic where he's got them half-closed (yet Tobi never has his half-closed).
> 
> Also, the first two pics shit on my theory? Because... they're both doing a salute? Then how come they're it using *different hands*?


Just keep grasping at straws, everyone is lolling at you atm, and even more soon as Obito himself gets revealed lol.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 14, 2012)

jacamo said:


> really? but Tsunade's parents would have been too old to take part in war at that point, so i doubt they knew about the battle of Kannabi Bridge



Actually as you all know I support Tobi is Obito and being controlled by Danzo thory.

But, Hashirama's son being Tobi possibility is as same as Tobi being Kagami. The problem about Kagami is that we don't know anything about him. We have seen him onle once during all long story. So, If we can claim that Tobi is "X" only because we have seen "X" once in our life and only the timeline support theory, we can put forward that Tobi may be same people who fit the time line.

For ex:

- Hashirama's son: The time line fits because Hiruzen was talking about Mito's child birth and Hashirama is older than Hiruzen. So, Hashirama's son would really fit by being as same age with sannin.

- Hiruzen's son(Father of Konohamaru) I won't explain


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And again, the first 2 pic shits on every single theory.
> Sutol in our heart.



i just realised Obito's eye shape is different to Tobi's

Obito's are more rectangular while Tobi's are more pointed/sharp


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

at least Kagami has appeared in the manga

Tsunade's parents have never appeared in the manga, not even mentioned... we dont even know if Hashirama had a son or a daughter


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

I think that's just kid to adult changes.  Kids tend of have bigger eyes than teens or adults in this manga.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 14, 2012)

jacamo said:


> at least Kagami has appeared in the manga
> 
> Tsunade's parents have never appeared in the manga, not even mentioned... we dont even know if Hashirama had a son or a daughter



You're right but it's just an example And even being not appeared in manga might have been a hint 

Think about it, Hashirama is the myth of the ninja wolrd. He was able to control all bijus same time. He with mokuton was able to beat Madara...

And look what we have:

Hashirama(almost god) and Mito(goddes of the seals who was able to seal Kyubi inside herself by herself) have a baby who shares same place with Kyubi during 10 months and obtains Kyubi's incomparable chakra like Kin-Gin brothers.

So, the result with Kyubi's curse might be a baby god who will lead the world to destruction.

Woww I did a great theory

Plus, look at their skin colour:


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

lol doesnt matter.... they are still drawn differently


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol doesnt matter.... they are still drawn differently



Naruto's eyes are not drawn the same part 1 vs. part 2 but they're close enough.  They're close enough disregarding the kid aspect to them.


----------



## Easley (Aug 14, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I think that's just kid to adult changes.  Kids tend of have bigger eyes than teens or adults in this manga.


So why does young Madara's eye shape resemble Tobi's? actually, more like identical.

This is when we assumed Tobi was Madara so Kishi might have drawn them the same deliberately. even so, they are much closer to Tobi's shape than Obito is.


----------



## PassionateStoic (Aug 14, 2012)

This is garbage. You use the second scan in order to try to disprove that Kisame is talking to Madara, yet he clearly calls the Tobi by the name Madara with absolutely no one around to pretend for. This means he has no idea who Tobi actually is. 
Just no


----------



## Footmax (Aug 14, 2012)

About Obito, I noticed that Kishimoto changed his eye shape in chapter 425 (his last appearance in the manga).




I think they're closer to Tobi's shape now.


----------



## Whirlpool (Aug 14, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Disagree with the First and Second part, and disagree with the *Third part. Rin isn't a Western Woman, after all.*



Bullshit, every japanese porn movie I see they squeal like bitches and 50% have like 8 guys watching and even some partaken.

Eatern bitches


----------



## Easley (Aug 14, 2012)

Footmax said:


> About Obito, I noticed that Kishimoto changed his eye shape in chapter 425 (his last appearance in the manga).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's a lot closer to Tobi's shape. I guess Kishi changes things and thinks no one will notice. I missed it though, hehe. whether it's a clue is debatable - maybe he's just inconsistent at drawing eyes...


----------



## Mariko (Aug 14, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> It's a bit soon to suggest that the theory is debunked *when we haven't seen sufficient evidence to disprove Tobi = Obito*.
> 
> Like I said before, for all we know, the alternate dimension could alter time/aging. We still don't know all the properties of box-world.
> 
> Alternatively, the Tobi that attacked Minato could have been a Zetsu, given that his body was reduced to the same liquid by Minato's Rasengan. That didn't happen to this iteration of Tobi when he was hit.





If Kishi makes Tobito comes true, he will ruin 10 years of work. As I said, Tobi being Obito is as consistant as Danzo being Shisui.  ("Does the eye make the man" is another question.)

If nothing proves today that Tobi IS Obito (IS, in mind), *TONS of facts proves the contrary! *. I will not waste my time to list them since they have been listed so many times...

Besides, why are you guys so obssessed by this theory?

Isn't that just pride for you to defend such an inconsistant position?

C'mon...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 14, 2012)

Footmax said:


> About Obito, I noticed that Kishimoto changed his eye shape in chapter 425 (his last appearance in the manga).



i never knew Obito had Sage Mode


----------



## Summers (Aug 14, 2012)

ero_luffy said:


> If Kishi makes Tobito comes true, he will ruin 10 years of work. As I said, Tobi being Obito is as consistant as Danzo being Shisui.  ("Does the eye make the man" is another question.)
> 
> If nothing proves today that Tobi IS Obito (IS, in mind), *TONS of facts proves the contrary! *. I will not waste my time to list them since they have been listed so many times...
> 
> ...



More importantly, who is that old guy in the Pic.


----------



## Mariko (Aug 14, 2012)

Summers said:


> More importantly, who is that old guy in the Pic.



My beloved son!


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 14, 2012)

*Umm... seems like people are saying "this proves Tobi to be Obito" but...*

Doesn't this PROVE that he's _NOT_ Obito?

kakashi asks him where he got that eye, and he says he got it from that battle at kannabi bridge...

it doesn't mean that he was the actual person the sharingan developed in - especially given how we've seen his collection of sharingans... which allows us to KNOW that he has collected/gathered the eyes.

Furthermore, considering his actions and mannerisms when unleashed the Kyuubi on Konoha... it just doesn't make any sense. it doesn't make any sense that obito could even go from the obito we knew in kakahsi's past, to the guy who was challenging Minato and took down an elite guard... 

there are other things that don't make sense too... Kamui is a MS technique... yet, Tobi's technique doesn't appear to be an MS technique. why the hell would the non-MS technique be superior to the MS one? _and then_, if it is an MS technique, why has it: a) never been shown? (this could be to try to not spoil it, but it would create a MAJOR inconsistency) b) never resulted in Tobi being tired as fuck despite spamming? c) not done anything to him as far as vision, despite spamming the fuck out of this technique?

so much there, just doesn't make sense - yes, i know the power of plot > all, however i just need to point these things out.

another "issue' with all of this is his involvement with NAGATO... nagato was even older (albeit, sightly) than Minato... so how and when did he get the chance to manipulate Nagato and company? Nagato became Pein some odd amount of years after Jiraiya left... but Akatsuki and all that was started before Obito even got a sharingan, if I'm not mistaken.

again, so many things just wouldn't be adding up properly for Tobi to _actually be_ Obito, going off what i remember off the top of my head.

*[edit]* -another point - Tobi's face was supposed to be OLD looking... remember when his mask falls off when itachi implanted amaterasu occurs? Obito shouldn't look _that_ old, now should he?

If I'm mistaken in these points i'm trying to make, please correct me.


----------



## YuiHayate (Aug 14, 2012)

*My 101% proven theory of Tobi.*

Tobi is clearly this guy:


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

-_-

10char.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

Sharingan is what makes a mediocre Uchiha an exceptional one. Remember, it is what put Sasuke over the top back in the Zabuza arc. If Obito's eyes are exceptional even among Uchiha then it's not too farfetched that he'd be a force after obtaining them.


----------



## Faustus (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes, this chapter actually put another nail in tobito's theory coffin, yet tobitotards are claiming their victory again, as always


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

Man you guys are delusional.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

Shadow050 said:


> Doesn't this PROVE that he's _NOT_ Obito?



No.  Nothing you said proves anything.  Basically you say it doesn't make sense, but just because YOU don't get it doesn't mean its not plausible.  It just means you don't get it.

There are thousands of posts on the subject by now, read them.

EDIT: You also make a lot of assumptions, many of which have no bearing on whether Tobi is Obito or not.  It's really too much for me to bother ripping apart.  The whole argument falls flat on its face tbh.  Read some posts around the telegrams then try again.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 14, 2012)

Another one who can't understand implication.


----------



## Ricky Sen (Aug 14, 2012)

Well-reasoned. Well-put. Can we make a wager thread for this guy now?  You think an Uchiha like Fugaku mated with Akamarus mom? First i*c*st now bestiality huh.

Dem Uchihas



Dat Uchihakamaru


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

*The Bestest thory Evar!!!! Read*

Tobi is obviously Setsuna.

well


What had happened was: Setsuna was walking around Kannabi Bridge for no apparent reason and found Obito crushed under a rock. So with his Sharingan powers, which allows him to levitate stones and only stones, he took the rocks off of Obito and stole his eye. . . even though it was a lot of trouble and he had two of his own. 


Better yet, it was Izuna. Yeah that's right.


So Izuna was walking around Kannabi bridge for no apparent reason and without the aid of a guide dog, when he happened upon a bunch of rocks.

Using his special advanced hearing (the kind the blind always get) he learned from subterranean ants that someone with a powerful Sharingan was under them. So he summoned his blind man strength (as we all know, improves the blinder you are) lifted the rocks, and stole Obito's eye. After that he put a mask on his face because he didn't want people to know that he was the 90 year old eyeless Uchiha with the penchant for wandering battlegrounds.


Thus Tobi was born. 


No wait, it was Uruchi Uchiha.

See she was. . .


----------



## Algol (Aug 14, 2012)

Ricky Sen said:


> Well-reasoned. Well-put. Can we make a wager thread for this guy now?  You think an *Uchihaha* like Fugaku mated with Akamarus mom? First i*c*st now bestiality huh.
> 
> Dem *Uchihahas*
> 
> ...



Fixed.

Yeah it's him. He's just been pissed at Naruto winning a match by farting 3 years ago.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 14, 2012)

Who the fuck is Uruchi?


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Aug 14, 2012)

5 star thread right here!


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 14, 2012)

Well you know. I am not pro Tobito, I do not want it to happen, just because I hate those arrogant people that are acting like their fucking theory is proven and they were right all the time. Pretty childish reason I know, but I'm human.

But! I have to say that especially this chapter makes it very very likely that Tobi is Obito. The scene where Kakashi and Tobi are shown together is a pretty obvious parallel to one panel that was shown in Kakashi gaiden.
Although that could also just be to emphasize that the eyes are Obitos.


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Aug 14, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Disagree with the First and Second part, and disagree with the Third part. Rin isn't a Western Woman, after all.



Dude just because you pipi was not big enough for the several western women you have been with, does not mean they all are hoe. The other women were just more nice and simply fake it. SO STFU 

On topic:

YONDAIME do Rin many times in their missions. Obito and kakashi did not notice and Rin only notice a brist moist warm for a second in her who ha. 

DAT YONDAIME


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 14, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Sharingan is what makes a mediocre Uchiha an exceptional one. Remember, it is what put Sasuke over the top back in the Zabuza arc. If Obito's eyes are exceptional even among Uchiha then it's not too farfetched that he'd be a force after obtaining them.



this has NOTHING to do with my post. i'm not worrying about if he's formidable or whatever.. wtf? 



Faustus said:


> Yes, this chapter actually put another nail in tobito's theory coffin, yet tobitotards are claiming their victory again, as always



thank you... because these fools are acting like i'm the one missing something - despite fact that i'm CLEARLY acknowledging the implications of the fucking chapter.



Descent of the Lion said:


> Man you guys are delusional.



we're delusional because we can see that it doesn't actually make sense for Tobi to _actually be Obito_, due to the FACTS i noted.... :faceplam



AMtrack said:


> No.  *Nothing you said proves anything*.  Basically you say it doesn't make sense, but just because YOU don't get it doesn't mean its not plausible.  It just means you don't get it.
> 
> There are thousands of posts on the subject by now, read them.
> 
> EDIT: You also make a lot of assumptions, many of which have no bearing on whether Tobi is Obito or not.  It's really too much for me to bother ripping apart.  The whole argument falls flat on its face tbh.  Read some posts around the telegrams then try again.



good thing i asked if the CHAPTER proved him to not ACTUALLY be Obito, instead of just "what i said"...

I say it doesn't make sense, true... and does it? no. okay then - so wtf are you going on about? 

there's nothing I failed to get lol. YOU nor anyone else has presented ANYTHING to suggest that it _would in fact make sense_ for Tobi to ACTUALLY be OBITO. could he be an experiment? sure, never denied that. but for him o be the actual person? yeah... you're required to be delusional to make such a claim and argument that you believe to "make sense".

that "edit" i "make a lot of assumptions"?? what? where? point them out cuz you talking like you know something about me lol.



First Tsurugi said:


> Another one who can't understand implication.



another one who can't understand that the "implications" have been acknowledged, but implications don't _*necessarily*_ mean anything... and that _it still doesn't make sense_ - which is the fucking point of the thread. :faceplam



Mayaki said:


> Well you know. I am not pro Tobito, I do not want it to happen, just because I hate those arrogant people that are acting like their fucking theory is proven and they were right all the time. Pretty childish reason I know, but I'm human.
> 
> But! I have to say that especially this chapter makes it very very likely that Tobi is Obito. The scene where Kakashi and Tobi are shown together is a pretty obvious parallel to one panel that was shown in Kakashi gaiden.
> Although that could also just be to emphasize that the eyes are Obitos.



finally a more sensible post!
yes, the chapter does make it seem like he's actually obito when we take this chapter _by itself_... but considering the myriad of other events and facts it remains that TObi _actually being_ obito, simply doesn't *make sense.*

it just doesn't add up - and other have pointed this out too. but people seem to just ignore it because of "implications" despute how many times this author and others have set people up by using things like "implications".

it's like people just turn off a piece of their brain once they think they're claim or believe is being fulfilled (*note* this comment isn't aimed at you, Mayaki).


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 14, 2012)

Does "intentional ambiguity" mean anything to the people who are trying to pull this solely to one side or the other???

This is one piece of evidence that could go either way.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Aug 14, 2012)

This gave me a laugh, too bad Tobi is actually one of Naruto's sexy jutsu's gone haywire.


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 14, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Does "intentional ambiguity" mean anything to the people who are trying to pull this solely to one side or the other???
> 
> This is one piece of evidence that could go either way.



indeed... but tobito theoriests are sooo convinced that this chapter proved that tob iis obito... when all it truly seems to say is that Tobi and kakashi's sharingan eyes are connected and logically from obito. 

just imagine if kakashi was parading around with a mask that covered everything but a sharingan eye... using their logic he might very well be obito too.

anyone could have acquired that eye (that apparently, magically survived the boulder).... it still wouldn't make them actually obito.


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 14, 2012)

Shadow050 said:


> indeed... but tobito theoriests are sooo convinced that this chapter proved that tob iis obito... when all it truly seems to say is that Tobi and kakashi's sharingan eyes are connected and logically from obito.
> 
> just imagine if kakashi was parading around with a mask that covered everything but a sharingan eye... using their logic he might very well be obito too.
> 
> anyone could have acquired that eye (that apparently, magically survived the boulder).... it still wouldn't make them actually obito.



Oh, don't get me wrong. I am 95% sure that Obito is Tobi. (Yes, I realize how dumb that sounds in this context to people who know Statistics. I'm just using it as a turn of phrase. LOL.)

I'm just not relying so heavily on this particular piece of evidence.

All the evidence I need lies in Kishi's use of narrative devices.


----------



## Easley (Aug 14, 2012)

Kishi is either being blatantly obvious about Obito, or it is misdirection to fool us. I hope it's the latter. 

Casual readers might not get these hints, but anyone with more than a passing interest (or internet access) should at least be aware of Tobito.

To be honest, I doubt Kishi will be this obvious with his best kept secret.


----------



## brozy (Aug 14, 2012)

This is just an idea here but....why don't we just wait and see? i mean making theorys and what not is all well and good but it seems to be getting to the point of just being absurdm theres evidance that supports that he is and that he isn't so might aswell stop fussing about it and just wait til we know the whole story before claming whos right or wrong


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 14, 2012)

Everything is 50/50 at the moment, so no.


----------



## tgm2x (Aug 14, 2012)

Prove the third using some pics


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 14, 2012)

To the OP


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

Remember when loool3 posted ''The Color page will be about Tobito being revealed i am 99.99% sure, why else will there be a colored page again?''

I liked the reveal you were definitely right, Kishi thought of a cool way to make a reveal right?


----------



## maupp (Aug 15, 2012)

kishi is sitting in his chair laughting and being satisfied at how much he's fooling people with false lead...seriously the tobitotard are just desperate to claim that this chapter proved their claims... kishi is like blatantly trying to fool people in false belief here, it's so obvious, he want to make the twist even twister 

do people seriously think kishi was going to give blatant and heavy clues about tobi identity that easily  ... well at least in a couple of weeks i'll be laughting at all those tobitotards and spamming "we told you so" like there is no tomorrow


----------



## Nic (Aug 15, 2012)

He awoke his sharingan there, that's all it means that explains kakashi's response afterwards.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 15, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Disagree with the First and Second part, and disagree with the Third part. Rin isn't a Western Woman, after all.


Minutes after Obito, a boy who had a crush on her and who asked Kakashi to protect Rin in his stead, died, she tried to confess her feelings for Kakashi. Even Sakura's better than that.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Aug 15, 2012)

Pics or the third isn't true.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 15, 2012)

"CONFIRMED !"


----------



## Palpatine (Aug 15, 2012)

Since when were you under the impression Rin was a girl?


----------



## AoshiKun (Aug 15, 2012)

IMO Kishimoto is leading the fans to think Tobi is Obito near his revelation however he isn't. Tobi has Obito's Sharingan but that is all.


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 15, 2012)

> he learned from subterranean ants that someone with a powerful Sharingan was under them. So he summoned his blind man strength


Seems legit


----------



## Blur (Aug 15, 2012)

KAKASHI10 said:


> Dude just because you pipi was not big enough for the several western women you have been with, does not mean they all are hoe. The other women were just more nice and simply fake it. SO STFU
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...



No wonder he is called the Yellow flash. :ho


----------



## AoshiKun (Aug 15, 2012)

I have a better one: Tobi is obviously Obito.

Zetsu was walking around Kannabi Bridge monitorating the war for Madara and found Obito crushed under a rock. For no apparent reason he saved the kid instead of just steal his eye for Madara because we all know Zetsu is a good guy and likes to help almost dead kids and even donate money to stop poority.

So he fixed Obito with his own body (how sweet is that?), raised him as his own child and changed his name for Tobi because Obito was too mainstream. After that he introduced little Tobi to Madara and the old Uchiha fucked little Tobi's mind and turned a good boy in a deadly villain.

Of course Zetsu never wanted that for his child, all he wanted was Tobi to have a normal life, go to school, meet some chicks but whatever.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 15, 2012)

Probably he is. Or probably he's revealing Obito fitting the current scene.

(Im not a supporter of any of those theory. Since there are people killing themselves with a theory of a child's manga).


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 15, 2012)

Congratulations, you made me laugh.

+reps


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Aug 15, 2012)

Rin is definately a whore + rep she is the konoha bike.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You're right but it's just an example And even being not appeared in manga might have been a hint
> 
> Think about it, Hashirama is the myth of the ninja wolrd. He was able to control all bijus same time. He with mokuton was able to beat Madara...
> 
> ...



Yeah, the first one is from the dust of several explosions:<


----------



## Summers (Aug 15, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> IMO Kishimoto is leading the fans to think Tobi is Obito near his revelation however he isn't. Tobi has Obito's Sharingan but that is all.



I disagree, If you believe tobi is Obito, the of course every panel with Kakashi and Tobi in it, is only going to convince you more. If not then you would just think he is mad a Kakashi, interested in his eyes, or aggravating him. Or Meh.


----------



## Whirlpool (Aug 15, 2012)

KAKASHI10 said:


> *YONDAIME do Rin many times in their missions. Obito and kakashi did not notice and Rin only notice a brist moist warm for a second in her who ha.
> 
> DAT YONDAIME*



It's not an accomplishment to steal money that's easily taken.


----------



## Nuuskis (Aug 15, 2012)

Inferno said:


> _Now if Kishi still decides to make Tobi Obito, then it's 100% confirmed that he's a shitty writer._



This has been confirmed a long time ago lol.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Yeah, the first one is from the dust of several explosions:<



I guess not:


*Spoiler*: __ 











*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]Fhfb6hDrJvQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

*@Mugivara:* You're really using the anime to support your theory?


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes I do

They ask character designs to Kishi himself not me, so they can't make white people red or brown


----------



## Escargon (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I guess not:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



But Tobi is whiter in every other panel, even after the fight if i remember correctly, just look at the feets.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:
			
		

> Yes I do
> 
> They ask character designs to Kishi himself not me, so they can't make white people red or brown


The anime fucks up all the time. Just look at Tobi's skin color when he fought Minato. How he looked during his battle with Konan was just due to all the explosions.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The anime fucks up all the time. Just look at Tobi's skin color when he fought Minato. How he looked during his battle with Konan was just due to all the explosions.



That whole show is a joke. Just look at the Pain fight. They can color Tobi blue, wouldnt be surprised.


----------



## Tazmo (Aug 15, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread:


----------

