# Arcueid (Tsukihime) vs Raizen (YYH)



## Doommaker (Apr 2, 2012)

Arcueid is in her Archetype Earth form (100% power).



Raizen is in his prime.



Battle takes place on Earth. There's a full moon out (giving Arcuied nigh-immortality and further amplifying her powers). Both are bloodlusted. 

Who wins, the Princess of the True Ancestors, or the Demon King?


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## OS (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm just hypothesizing but can't Arc solo the YYH verse?


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> I'm just hypothesizing but can't Arc solo the YYH verse?



No. The top tier YYH characters (especially the 3 demon kings), by hype, have enough power to destroy the entire human world. Raizen in particular is so powerful that even his extremely weakened self can shake the entire demon world with his growling stomach, which is said to be infinite.

I do personally believe that "infinite" statement to be hyperbole, since an infinitely sized world doesn't logically make sense, and it is an inconsistent feat if that statement is taken at face value. Nonetheless, he still shook an extremely large world, so he clearly has an enormous amount of energy comparable to early DBZ levels.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not familiar with Arcueid.

So enlighten me, what can she do against someone who while starving and dying is massively hypersonic and literally has more power in just his his index finger than mountain level+ characters?


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

Raizen wouldn't have any way of putting Arc down, she'll just come back thanks to Gaia. Unless he can destroy the Earth.  She has probability manipulation (her Marble Phantasm), allowing her to drop the moon on Raizen (and other abilties).


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Some elaboration on this Gaia ability would be good.

Can she resist his mind control? He did use it on Yusuke in the CB arc.


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

If Gaia (the Earth) still exists, time will be reversed to bring Arc back. It's unlikely she would susceptible to his mind control.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Amae said:


> It's unlikely she would susceptible to his mind control.


Based on what feats?


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> I'm not familiar with Arcueid.
> 
> So enlighten me, what can she do against someone who while starving and dying is massively hypersonic and literally has more power in just his his index finger than mountain level+ characters?



She's regularly hypersonic, but Gaia (the Earth) will continue to increase her power until she is one level above her opponent, so all of her abilities will essentially increase until she is stronger than Raizen. 

Also, the concept of death doesn't exist for her at night (especially underneath the full moon) so she's essentially immortal. Her immortality can be nullified if the part of Gaia in the immediate vicinity feeding her power is "killed", although I personally don't know if it's something that can be killed by conventional means. Tohno Shiki, another character from Tsukihime, was able to "kill" that part of Gaia when he fought her because he has an EXTREMELY hax ability in his eyes that allows him to see and kill the existence of everything and anything that has a concept of death, including things that don't exist in the physical realm. He was able to harm Arcuied afterwards (albeit Arcueid only had access to 6% of her power at the time, and Shiki ended up with a hole in his chest from one of her attacks).

Arcueid has time-reversal based regeneration as long as Gaia exists, so any damage done to her can be undone. She's resistant to most magic and human weapons though, so it's a moot point in most cases anyway.

But the aspect of Arcuied that makes her a true threat to Raizen is her Marble Phantasm, which gives her reality warping and probability manipulating capabilities. Her 100% power is mostly just author statements since she has never been depicted fighting at more than 30% power, but at 30%, she is able to summon the moon from 1,000 years in the future in order to drop it on her opponents.


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Based on what feats?



In the Tsukihime universe, certain beings have eyes called Mystic Eyes of Enchantment, which acts as hypnosis, or in more powerful cases, utter mindfuckery. Normal humans are susceptible to it, but humans with demonic blood are resistant (or even completely immune) to it. Arcueid is part of the True Ancestor race, which is a transcendent race above all other transcendent races in Tsukihime, and Arcueid herself is the most powerful True Ancestor to have ever been born. If MUCH lesser beings have shown immunity to said hypnosis, Arcuied by powerscaling would not be affected at all.

Also, Arcueid herself has the Mystic Eyes of Enchantment, and hers in particular are very powerful. She can completely paralyze lesser opponents just by looking at them and mindfuck them.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Doommaker said:


> She's regularly hypersonic, but Gaia (the Earth) will continue to increase her power until she is one level above her opponent, so all of her abilities will essentially increase until she is stronger than Raizen.


What are the displayed limits of this ability?



> Also, the concept of death doesn't exist for her at night (especially underneath the full moon) so she's essentially immortal. Her immortality can be nullified if the part of Gaia in the immediate vicinity feeding her power is "killed", although I personally don't know if it's something that can be killed by conventional means. Tohno Shiki, another character from Tsukihime, was able to "kill" that part of Gaia when he fought her because he has an EXTREMELY hax ability in his eyes that allows him to see and kill the existence of everything and anything that has a concept of death, including things that don't exist in the physical realm. He was able to harm Arcuied afterwards (albeit Arcueid only had access to 6% of her power at the time, and Shiki ended up with a hole in his chest from one of her attacks).


What is the strongest attack she has tanked when the full moon is out?



> Arcueid has time-reversal based regeneration as long as Gaia exists, so any damage done to her can be undone. She's resistant to most magic and human weapons though, so it's a moot point in most cases anyway.
> 
> But the aspect of Arcuied that makes her a true threat to Raizen is her Marble Phantasm, which gives her reality warping and probability manipulating capabilities. Her 100% power is mostly just author statements since she has never been depicted fighting at more than 30% power, but at 30%, she is able to summon the moon from 1,000 years in the future in order to drop it on her opponents.


Limits of her reality warping and probability manipulation?


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

Nah, she wouldn't keep coming back until she was stronger than Raizen ... NLF.

Raizen can definitely wreck Arc, her durability doesn't stand up.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Doommaker said:


> In the Tsukihime universe, certain beings have eyes called Mystic Eyes of Enchantment, which acts as hypnosis, or in more powerful cases, utter mindfuckery. Normal humans are susceptible to it, but humans with demonic blood are resistant (or even completely immune) to it. Arcueid is part of the True Ancestor race, which is a transcendent race above all other transcendent races in Tsukihime, and Arcueid herself is the most powerful True Ancestor to have ever been born. If MUCH lesser beings have shown immunity to said hypnosis, Arcuied by powerscaling would not be affected at all.
> 
> Also, Arcueid herself has the Mystic Eyes of Enchantment, and hers in particular are very powerful. She can completely paralyze lesser opponents just by looking at them and mindfuck them.


So she can resist mind control from someone as powerful as Raizen?


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

Raizen mind controlled Yusuke (who has no such resistance), it isn't like it has feats of particular potence.


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> What are the displayed limits of this ability?



The limit is the amount of power the world is able to give to her. If Raizen has more power than the world itself (plus Arcuied's own base power) than he'll be stronger than her.



Basilikos said:


> What is the strongest attack she has tanked when the full moon is out?



Admittedly, the visual novel for Tsukihime itself doesn't really show much, since she was stuck at 6% due to circumstances throughout the entire novel. Most of the characters in Tsukihime are also nowhere close to YYH characters in power and durability. Arcuied and other members of her race are really the only ones that can compete. The novel does directly say that in order to kill them, "a conceptual weapon with the power to kill the world is needed. Of course such a weapon doesn't exist." People who've read separate supplementary material about Arcuied's powers can probably elaborate. Arcuied did tank a bunch of flying swords from a superhuman fighter that sent her flying, and all it really did was piss her off.



Basilikos said:


> Limits of her reality warping and probability manipulation?



She's pretty much just limited by her own imagination. Against one opponent at 6% power, she used her Marble Phantasm to summon a mini atmosphere with razor air blades, which completely obliterated his body all the way down to his ankles (it was a very bloody and brutal mess). She didn't imagine the atmosphere reaching the floor as well, which was why the ankles were still there.


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Amae said:


> Nah, she wouldn't keep coming back until she was stronger than Raizen ... NLF.
> 
> Raizen can definitely wreck Arc, her durability doesn't stand up.



It's not a NLF because there is a definite limit to it. If Raizen has more power than the Earth itself, the power boosts will stop there. For example, Arcuied will not be stronger than Goku from DBZ no matter how much power Gaia gives her, cuz Goku has more power than the planet itself.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Amae said:


> Raizen mind controlled Yusuke (who has no such resistance), it isn't like it has feats of particular potence.


It's certainly more impressive than anything quantifiable for Arcueid who only has fodder to get some vague powerscaling from.



Doommaker said:


> The limit is the amount of power the world is able to give to her. If Raizen has more power than the world itself (plus Arcuied's own base power) than he'll be stronger than her.


Well, shit. Raizen doesn't have enough power then. 
































But his stomach does. 

But seriously though. Does her Gaia ability occur instantly or does it build during a fight? Because if it isn't instant then Raizen can send a youki blast or shockwave her way.



> Admittedly, the visual novel for Tsukihime itself doesn't really show much, since she was stuck at 6% due to circumstances throughout the entire novel. Most of the characters in Tsukihime are also nowhere close to YYH characters in power and durability. Arcuied and other members of her race are really the only ones that can compete. The novel does directly say that in order to kill them, "a conceptual weapon with the power to kill the world is needed. Of course such a weapon doesn't exist." People who've read separate supplementary material about Arcuied's powers can probably elaborate. Arcuied did tank a bunch of flying swords from a superhuman fighter that sent her flying, and all it really did was piss her off.


I see. I guess it's a moot point though at this point since this Gaia ability alone will give her superior power.



> She's pretty much just limited by her own imagination. Against one opponent at 6% power, she used her Marble Phantasm to summon a mini atmosphere with razor air blades, which completely obliterated his body all the way down to his ankles (it was a very bloody and brutal mess). She didn't imagine the atmosphere reaching the floor as well, which was why the ankles were still there.


Still somewhat vague regarding the limits for this but I'll let it slide given the Gaia ability. I'm still unsure about the whole mind control resistance thing.


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

The established limit would be the strongest character she has overcome with the ability, actual feats. 



Basilikos said:


> It's certainly more impressive than anything quantifiable for Arcueid who only has fodder to get some vague powerscaling from.


Not even remotely since Raizen's mind control was only seen once used against a character with no known resistance (essentially fodder, if you want to call it that). If anything, they would be at the very least equally impressive.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Amae said:


> The established limit would be the strongest character she has overcome with the ability, actual feats.
> 
> Not even remotely since Raizen's mind control was only seen once used a character with no known resistance (essentially fodder, if you want to call it that). If anything, they would be at the very least equally impressive.


So you actually think those fodder beings have better mind control than Raizen, a demon who has a milennia's worth of combat experience and training? Not to mention that he was severely weakened when he used it on Yusuke. 

And Yusuke is hardly fodder, Amae.


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## Amae (Apr 3, 2012)

In the area of mind resistance, Yusuke has never shown any. His power and durability are meaningless. Therefore you have no idea how powerful Raizen's mind control is since it's only been used on him. Raizen's amount of combat experience and training, along with his weaken state, is irrelevant.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 3, 2012)

Is there a Tsukihime respect thread, or something similar? It'd make this a whole lot easier.

Anyway, in terms of resistance in general, Arc was able to recover from having her physical existence undermined and having all her life drained from her. Even when her body was damaged beyond repair (the wounds inflicted by the MEoDP made it so that even time/causality reversal was unable to repair them), she was able to use Marble Phantasm to reconstruct her body from nothing. Roa's MEoLP also technically 'killed' her, but she was able to revive thanks to Gaia's power.

With regards to the application of her Marble Phantasm, she can create anything that exists in nature (although 'nature' in this context is very flexible): she can replicate her own body, summon a moon from 1000 years in the future as already mentioned, create a vacuum capable of rendering a vampiric body to nothing but its ankles, destroy her opponents with photons, and stop the Earth's rotation with a thought.

As for Raizen's mind control, she hasn't really demonstrated any real resistance to that sort of thing. The only other mind-manipulator in Tsukihime other than herself is Ciel, but she never used it on Arc for whatever reason. To be honest, it probably wouldn't have worked if she had, but there's no real evidence to back that up. She has enough strength of mind to keep her bloodlust suppressed at all times, even though it takes 70% of her power just to keep it suppressed. And it probably doesn't count for much, but Archetype: Earth (her full power form) is technically the 'brain' of the Earth, which would extend in some ways to all life on it. And considering that Nasuverse Earth has intelligent lifeforms other than humans on it, including a higher-dimensional race of fairies that made Excalibur and Avalon, that's a lot of minds. But like I said, I don't know if that qualifies in terms of mind resistance.

Anyway, this thread needs Willyvereb. He usually knows the important details when it comes to the Nasuverse.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 3, 2012)

A full powered TYPE>YYH, ARC's Marble Phantasm allows reality warping, drawing upon the powers of nature(she can recreate natural phenomenon) and is based on the concept of probability manipulation(think white marbles and black marbles while making it so everytime you pull a marble from the bag it's either always white or black, the last one may apply to Reality marbles which are a variation). She can also moon drop due to being related to TYPE-MOON(future successor) and end all life on the planet if she wishes.

Raizen is faster than her but he can't kill her and is horribly outclassed by her in all other areas(Primate Murder would curb him and that overpowered being that requires 7 CGs just to restrain is just a beat compared to Prime ARC).

ARC>YYH


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## ForeverHero (Apr 3, 2012)

Just for reference, Arcueid isn't immune to mindcontrol abilities, since the former 7th Dead Apostle Ancestor used it on her... However, he was a specialist in hypnotism that could even make someone forget his very existence, so it's a bit troublesome to compare his power to Raizen....

EDIT: Edited since I remembered that it was not proved that the former 7th had a Reality Marble.


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## Garv (Apr 3, 2012)

I thought that Raizen could control Yusuke's mind, because Yusuke is his descendant by blood. I doubt that he could control Arc, regardless of her resistance to Mindfuck...


Raizen could "kill" her many times, but she will just come back again and again.
It's quite an unfair fight.


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## ForeverHero (Apr 3, 2012)

Since this is Archetype-Earth, a conversation between her and Ciel, from Melty Blood Actress Again:



> Ciel
> Save the comedy for that dress.
> Who would want to fight someone as broken as you are.
> I’m facing you with this equipment because I’m out of options.
> ...



TA Arc = Archetype-Earth

However, we only have character statements, but considering Ciel's knowledge and AE Arc's nature, this should be possible.
Also, these abilities come from her nature as an extension of Gaia's will, so they shouldn't be used as feats os strenght.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 3, 2012)

ForeverHero said:


> Just for reference, Arcueid isn't immune to mindcontrol abilities, since the former 7th Dead Apostle Ancestor used it on her... However, he was a specialist in hypnotism that could even make someone forget his very existence, so it's a bit troublesome to compare his power to Raizen....


Oh yeah, I forgot about Einnashe. I haven't read Talk yet...and Len should count as a mind-manipulator as well, not to mention her former master. How stupid of me.
But as Garv said, Raizen's control of Yusuke was due to the Atavism of the Mazoku, there's very little reason it should work on anyone who isn't his descendant.


Garv said:


> Raizen could "kill" her many times, but she will just come back again and again.
> It's quite an unfair fight.


And it doesn't help that she builds resistance to attacks that can actually hurt her. Unfair indeed.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> But as Garv said, Raizen's control of Yusuke was due to the Atavism of the Mazoku, there's very little reason it should work on anyone who isn't his descendant.


Where was it stated that Raizen's mind control worked only because Yusuke is a descendant of his?


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## Doommaker (Apr 3, 2012)

Do you guys think Raizen has enough power to deflect or tank a falling moon-sized object? Cuz I honestly am not sure, though it does help that he's in his prime in this scenario.


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## Voyeur (Apr 3, 2012)

I've read somewhere that Arcueid could be KO'ed, if so then could Raizen do that in order to pull out a win?


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

Doommaker said:


> Do you guys think Raizen has enough power to deflect or tank a falling moon-sized object? Cuz I honestly am not sure, though it does help that he's in his prime in this scenario.


No. He can lol at mountain busters, even in his dying state but tanking a moon sized object falling on him is out of the question.

Also, could I get a response to this:


> But seriously though. Does her Gaia ability occur instantly or does it build during a fight? Because if it isn't instant then Raizen can send a youki blast or shockwave her way.





Voyeur said:


> I've read somewhere that Arcueid could be KO'ed, if so then could Raizen do that in order to pull out a win?


Yeah, if that is true and if Arcueid's Gaia boosting ability isn't instantaneous then Raizen can speedlitz and either kill or KO before her power surpasses his.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Where was it stated that Raizen's mind control worked only because Yusuke is a descendant of his?


It wasn't. My bad. But the thing is, Raizen's controlling Yusuke was more possession than mind-control. He didn't alter Yusuke's thoughts, Yusuke just lost consciousness whilst Raizen controlled Yusuke's body and power. That might have been because Yusuke had the same kind of body and power as him...or it might not.
If it was straight up mind-control, then I suppose he'd have a shot at controlling Arc, but since it was more like directly taking control of the body, I'm not so sure. Arc's body is an extension of the Earth itself, so whether he could control something like that, I don't know.



Voyeur said:


> I've read somewhere that Arcueid could be KO'ed, if so then could Raizen do that in order to pull out a win?


She's only been KO'ed by Roa's MEoLP, which literally drained all her life from her. And at that time she was already massively weakened to begin with, down to around 6% of her power.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> It wasn't. My bad. But the thing is, Raizen's controlling Yusuke was more possession than mind-control. He didn't alter Yusuke's thoughts, Yusuke just lost consciousness whilst Raizen controlled Yusuke's body and power. That might have been because Yusuke had the same kind of body and power as him...or it might not.
> If it was straight up mind-control, then I suppose he'd have a shot at controlling Arc, but since it was more like directly taking control of the body, I'm not so sure. Arc's body is an extension of the Earth itself, so whether he could control something like that, I don't know.


Possessing someone from a distance to make them think and do what you want, effectively replacing their will with your own IS mind control. Semantics doesn't change this.

What do you mean her body is an extension of the earth?


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## TedMk2 (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Yeah, if that is true and if Arcueid's Gaia boosting ability isn't instantaneous then Raizen can speedlitz and either kill or KO before her power surpasses his.


I don't think it's ever been stated how quickly her Gaian back-up works. But that aside, Raizen destroying her physical body probably won't be enough to keep her down. You have to fundamentally undermine her physical existence so she can't regenerate, or forcibly remove her life itself so that her soul can't stick around, and that's just to keep her down for the count. And even then she'll be up and about again the next day, having patched her nigh-incurable wounds with duct tape. Really.


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## Shozan (Apr 3, 2012)

What if Raizen pull a Kurama ala elder Toguro? She can return just to be killed again and again!


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## TedMk2 (Apr 3, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Possessing someone from a distance to make them think and do what you want, effectively replacing their will with your own IS mind control. Semantics doesn't change this.
> 
> What do you mean her body is an extension of the earth?


He wasn't making Yusuke think want he wanted though, Yusuke's consciousness was just suppressed. Yusuke's mind itself wasn't altered. There's an important distinction between controlling someone's mind/will, and controlling their body and actions against their will, and whatever Raizen did was definitely in the latter category. Call it possession or puppet-mastery, but it's not the same as mind control.
As for Arc's body, True Ancestors are entities created by the planet itself, they draw on its power and its lifeforce flows through them. In Arc's case, she is effectively the will of the planet...or at least Archetype: Earth is. Taking control of that would be more or less the same as taking control of all life and natural occurrences on Earth, and I'd have doubts about Raizen being able to manage something on that scale.



Shozan said:


> What if Raizen pull a Kurama ala elder Toguro? She can return just to be killed again and again!


Maybe if he happens to have a Sinning Tree seed on hand, and the skill required to use it.


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## Basilikos (Apr 3, 2012)

@TedMk2:

Have you read YYH? Raizen took full control over Yusuke's mind and will during last part of the fight against Sensui. Yusuke wasn't even conscious or in control when he went into the Mazoku transformation thanks to Raizen. You're trying to explain away something in vain that is made quite clear in the manga.


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## Voyeur (Apr 3, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> She's only been KO'ed by Roa's MEoLP, which literally drained all her life from her. And at that time she was already massively weakened to begin with, down to around 6% of her power.



However, it's still possible, and if I recall correctly, in a previous match up Arcueid lost because she was able to be KO'ed. Also, that match had a scenario where she was going all out. Thus, if we can use that match as a precedent, then Raizen might be able to win.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 4, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> @TedMk2:
> 
> Have you read YYH? Raizen took full control over Yusuke's mind and will during last part of the fight against Sensui. Yusuke wasn't even conscious or in control when he went into the Mazoku transformation thanks to Raizen. You're trying to explain away something in vain that is made quite clear in the manga.


I did say that Yusuke's consciousness was suppressed, I never said otherwise. I suppose you could call it mental dominance. In any case, I think it's possible it'd work on Arc, but I'd have reservations about it working on Archetype: Earth, which was specified in the OP.


Voyeur said:


> However, it's still possible, and if I recall correctly, in a previous match up Arcueid lost because she was able to be KO'ed. Also, that match had a scenario where she was going all out. Thus, if we can use that match as a precedent, then Raizen might be able to win.


I can't really comment on that one. That was the thread against Sol, right? It had much better explanations of Arc's abilities than this one and screenshots too, it'd probably be better to use that for reference than anything in this thread. I still think that KO'ing her with brute force alone is unlikely, especially when much weaker vampires than her could almost instantly recover from attacks that completely destroyed their upper bodies.


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## Basilikos (Apr 4, 2012)

Playing semantics games changes nothing.


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## Doommaker (Apr 16, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Playing semantics games changes nothing.



Regardless of whether Raizen has mind control abilities or not, I highly doubt it would work on this incarnation of Arcueid. This is her most powerful form, the one whose existence is directly linked to Crimson Moon, who is basically one of the Nasuverse's gods. Taking control of her mind would require overpowering the influence of a god, which is pretty much impossible.


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## hojou (Apr 16, 2012)

Can't raizen bitch punt her into space? Yt was able to do it (well not sace but the ocean and raizen is much much more stronger then him)


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Wasn't that moon mountain-sized or am I forgetting something... what was I gonna say... oh yeah...

Yeah she has the ability to gain power during the battle until she one's up the opponent, but Raizen is still faster and stronger than she is, even with her effect of causing natural occurring disasters (like floods or tornadoes, and etc). But again that won't help her here. Not only is he capable of leveling mountains with his punches (maybe even the pressure of his punches), but he's also massively hypersonic. He clearly could go into the battle and kick her ass maybe even vaporize her with a rei blast of some sort (very possible since he's the strongest character in his verse, and at full power can take on two of his rivals without breaking a sweat said so by the rivals themselves who were also strong enough to blow away mountains without trying.)

Even with just powerscaling, he is a stronger competitor.

He has the power and the speed to make this not only a quick battle but an easy one. The ever-increase in power also takes a lot of time, and she will be down by then.

I give this to Raizen.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 16, 2012)

Doommaker said:


> Regardless of whether Raizen has mind control abilities or not, I highly doubt it would work on this incarnation of Arcueid. This is her most powerful form, the one whose existence is directly linked to Crimson Moon, who is basically one of the Nasuverse's gods. Taking control of her mind would require overpowering the influence of a god, which is pretty much impossible.


CMB and Nasuverse gods are pretty much unquantifiable, they can hardly be used to powerscale mind control resistance. But Archetype: Earth is the brain of Gaia, the mind of the planet itself, so that has to count for something.



Gomu said:


> Wasn't that moon mountain-sized or am I forgetting something... what was I gonna say... oh yeah...
> 
> Yeah she has the ability to gain power during the battle until she one's up the opponent, but Raizen is still faster and stronger than she is, even with her effect of causing natural occurring disasters (like floods or tornadoes, and etc). But again that won't help her here. Not only is he capable of leveling mountains with his punches (maybe even the pressure of his punches), but he's also massively hypersonic. He clearly could go into the battle and kick her ass maybe even vaporize her with a rei blast of some sort (very possible since he's the strongest character in his verse, and at full power can take on two of his rivals without breaking a sweat said so by the rivals themselves who were also strong enough to blow away mountains without trying.
> 
> ...


I just don't see how DC has any real impact here, not with Arc's insane regen. Sure Raizen can speedblitz her initially and vaporize her, but there's nothing to suggest that'll keep her down. She got up a day after having her physical existence undermined, and Roa regenerated from nothing but his ankles almost instantly, and he was primarily able to do that thanks to the power he stole from her. I'd say Raizen could take 30% Arc purely by destroying the ground around them which could possibly interrupt Arc's connection to Gaia like in Ciel's True End, but Archetype: Earth draws from the entire planet. And where does it say that the power-increase takes a lot of time? Did Nasu make an official statement?


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> CMB and Nasuverse gods are pretty much unquantifiable, they can hardly be used to powerscale mind control resistance. But Archetype: Earth is the brain of Gaia, the mind of the planet itself, so that has to count for something.
> 
> 
> I just don't see how DC has any real impact here, not with Arc's insane regen. Sure Raizen can speedblitz her initially and vaporize her, but there's nothing to suggest that'll keep her down. She got up a day after having her physical existence undermined, and Roa regenerated from nothing but his ankles almost instantly, and he was primarily able to do that thanks to the power he stole from her. I'd say Raizen could take 30% Arc purely by destroying the ground around them which could possibly interrupt Arc's connection to Gaia like in Ciel's True End, but Archetype: Earth draws from the entire planet. And where does it say that the power-increase takes a lot of time? Did Nasu make an official statement?



Which is why I just said vaporization. He should be capable of killing someone with a powerful enough blast of demonic energy that is capable of completely wiping them out. And her regen does have limits. Otherwise it's a no limits fallacy. She has upperlimits.

If an opponent can come back to life after being vaporized that's fine. However. What we're saying is, within the time of regen, can she come back within moments of that battle and not make Raizen wait all day just for her to regen. So while I do agree with you. It still takes time for her to come back from being completely fucked by a full blast demon energy shot from Raizen a she has much higher destructive power than she has durability, and that's as much a factor as her regen.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Arcueid’s regeneration is time reversal. Shiki was an exception because his eyes were connected to Akasha, which can be considered the God of the Nasuverse (record of everything that exists in the Nasu-multiverse). She was erased from existence but still regenerated her body from scratch. Roa’s regeneration is inferior to Arcueid’s, but he was still able to regenerate from being blown to bits in seconds (with the moon’s influence).

Archetype-Earth is tiers above Roa. The Earth is her body. She can regenerate indefinitely as long as the planet exists. She can stop the Earth’s rotation with a thought. Juggle with continents. Drop the Moon (real-sized Moon) on her opponent. Use her Reality Marble to manipulate reality to her will. She should be able to teleport by recreating her body anywhere on Earth. She doesn’t even need a body. To destroy her you would have to destroy the Earth.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Arcueid?s regeneration is time reversal. Shiki was an exception because his eyes were connected to Akasha, which can be considered the God of the Nasuverse (record of everything that exists in the Nasu-multiverse). She was erased from existence but still regenerated her body from scratch. Roa?s regeneration is inferior to Arcueid?s, but he was still able to regenerate from being blown to bits in seconds (with the moon?s influence).
> 
> Archetype-Earth is tiers above Roa. The Earth is her body. She can regenerate indefinitely as long as the planet exists. She can stop the Earth?s rotation with a thought. Juggle with continents. Drop the Moon (real-sized Moon) on her opponent. Use her Reality Marble to manipulate reality to her will. She should be able to teleport by recreating her body anywhere on Earth. She doesn?t even need a body. To destroy her you would have to destroy the Earth.



But we're not trying to destroy her. It's incapacitating her that will get the job done. Raizen can't destroy her. But he can make her go away for a decent moment of time. And the time reversal/regen is not instant if her sole vessel is completely removed. And Raizen can easily do that before she can blink. One blast of demonic energy is enough towards such a cause, even if it doesn't kill her Raizen can still defeat her with that, even if it isn't absolute destruction.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Her sole vessel is the Earth. She should be able to regenerate instantly.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Show proof of this. It took her a day from getting her existence wiped out. Show proof.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

I don’t want to replay the visual novel for hours to find some scans. The facts that I remember are that:

Nero-sensei said that Arcueid could teleport by recreating her body even in her weakened form (restrained bloodlust).

Archetype-Earth said to Ciel that she was the Earth’s mind, and that the Earth was her true body. Thus she had no hope of killing her.

Restricted-Arcueid can’t be killed by Shiki under the full moon (no line of death).

Roa can regenerate from his feet in seconds.

Besides, you said it yourself. There is a huge difference between being wiped out of existence and having your body destroyed. Raizen can only destroy her body (human form).


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## TedMk2 (Apr 16, 2012)

I think the problem is accounting for how long it takes for Arc to recover from having her entire body disintegrated by Raizen's youki blasts, and what constitutes a long enough time to be a KO. Also, whether Arc can use her normal time-reversal regen from being vaporized, or if she has to use MP to rebuild her body in that circumstance.

As Sygurgh pointed out, there's a major difference between just having her body destroyed and the effects of the MEoDP, which lasted throughout her entire route. While it's true that she said that rebuilding her body with MP took a lot out of her (and possibly could be why it took so long), this was only 30% Arc; there's a good chance A:E could draw on the power of Gaia much more efficiently. Not to mention, it happened during the day when she's at her weakest, as opposed to during the full moon (specified circumstances in the OP), when she's at her strongest. Finally, I remember that the MEoDP themselves had a draining effect on her, or at least had an effect on her connection with Gaia; not only was she not able to recover from the damage effectively, but the damage itself meant she could barely draw upon the power of Gaia, which is why Nrvnqsr and Roa were able to push her around so easily; in any case, just destroying her body shouldn't cause the same problem.

It's difficult to judge, but from these circumstances, I think that recovering from just her body being destroyed should take a lot less time than when she got MEoDP'd. Probably less time than should qualify as a KO. It's inconvenient that we don't have as much info on Arc's recovery time. Wasn't Arc killed by Roa in MBAA and revived as A:E? If we could get a timeframe for that, it'd certainly help. And there's also Aoko's time-reversal revival feat from Mahoyo, I suppose.


Sygurgh said:


> Nero-sensei said that Arcueid could teleport by recreating her body even in her weakened form (restrained bloodlust).


Yeah, it's referenced in Kagetsu Tohya as well. That'd help against Raizen punting her into space, if nothing else


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

It isn’t difficult to judge. Roa took a few moments to regenerate his body (and might have waited for Arcueid to turn her back for his sneak attack). Roa only possesses a fraction of Arcueid’s powers and doesn’t have the full backing of the Moon or the Earth. Archetype-Earth should logically regenerate in less time than Roa, so less than a few seconds. She also shouldn’t have a problem regenerating indefinitely, as her energy is supplied by both the Moon and the Earth. She is theoretically both Type-Moon and Type-Earth.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Possessing someone from a distance to make them think and do what you want, effectively replacing their will with your own IS mind control. Semantics doesn't change this.
> 
> What do you mean her body is an extension of the earth?



I believe Arcueid's willpower is strong enough to resist mindcontrol to some extent. Her willpower is so strong that she was the only True Ancestor able to supress her vampiric impulse with only her will alone. 



> "But, she doesn't have such a thing. …… No, until now, she never needed one.
> Special among all the True Ancestors, she was able to resist the vampiric impulse using her will alone."



Nrvnqsr also believes it would take a great deal of effort to absorb her will, despite her extremely weakened state. Also, she lost 80% of her power when Shiki killed her. This left her with only 20%, and she needs to use 70% of her power to supress her bloodlust. So it's very likely she was using her willpower to make up for the power she lost (since her vampiric impulse is just a mental factor).

As for her immortality and regeneration. She has no concept of death during nighttime: 



Even Ryougi is unable to see death on her:



> Ryougi Shiki: What the.....I can't see your death isn’t the problem, no, you have no death.
> Ryougi Shiki: You're........so, you're the one.
> Arcueid: Yes, you need say no more. The target the Being that summoned you to eliminate is this vessel, the manifestation of lifespan (Life) most far-reaching on this planet.
> Arcueid: But even that is of little meaning, for you, you came simply to bring death to that which does not die, did you not? Your actions are ones drenched with emotion, but I will not mock that.



Her lack of death is interpreted as her being unable to die. Whether this means her body is immune to physical destruction or not is uncertain. But at the very least she should be unkillable to all modern human weapons, since the standard of what Shiki (both of them) can see is based on the limits of the people of the modern era, it means they can't see things that can't be killed (destroyed) on the current world.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> But seriously though. Does her Gaia ability occur instantly or does it build during a fight? Because if it isn't instant then Raizen can send a youki blast or shockwave her way.



I would like to know this myself.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Nobody knows if it builds up, as we only ever see her in her weakened state in the visual novel. But in this fight I don’t think it really matters, as even if it needs time to build up she’d have all the time she needs between resurrections. Besides, in her Archetype state she shouldn’t need any build-up as she becomes the manifestation of Earth’s will and should have an instant access to Earth’s resources.

Could someone tell me a bit more about Raizen’s abilities? They tend to vary from mountain-buster to universe-buster, so it’s a bit difficult to tell truth from fiction.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Nobody knows if it builds up, as we only ever see her in her weakened state in the visual novel. But in this fight I don’t think it really matters, as even if it needs time to build up she’d have all the time she needs between resurrections.



She could still be KO'd easily unless she has something else up her sleeve to counter act incapacitation.



> Besides, in her Archetype state she shouldn’t need any build-up as she becomes the manifestation of Earth’s will and should have an instant access to Earth’s resources.



I'm hesitant about accepting "should be"s, but I'll take your word for it.

You mind showing a scan or providing a link for good measure?

*EDIT:*



Sygurgh said:


> Could someone tell me a bit more about Raizen’s abilities? They tend to vary from mountain-buster to universe-buster, so it’s a bit difficult to tell truth from fiction.



At least mountain level+

He's no where near universal. Those claims were either jokes or bad trolling.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> I would like to know this myself.



Yes it does take a bit of time. The mechanics behind that ability are explained quite well during her first fight with Ciel. You can read the scene here: 

However, it's still meaningless if her opponent doesn't have a way to disable her. Besides, her base physical stats are no slouch either, specially at full power. She has roughly the same stats as Fate Berserker at 30% power, at full power she is literally more than two or three times stronger, faster and durable. 



Judas said:


> She could still be KO'd easily unless she has something else up her sleeve to counter act incapacitation.



The problem is that her Curse of Restoration rewinds time every time she takes damage. So it's doubtful whether she can KO'd by physical attacks.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> She could still be KO'd easily unless she has something else up her sleeve to counter act incapacitation.



Arcueid doesn?t need a body to exist, and has interacted with the protagonist in her spirit form. It?s hard to imagine a pure physical attack able to incapacitate her.



Judas said:


> I'm hesitant about accepting "should be"s, but I'll take your word for it.
> 
> You mind showing a scan or providing a link for good measure?



It?s very hard to provide scans for visual novels as it would require quite a bit of searching (could be an hour or more). Still, I shouldn?t have used ?should be?, as it?s basically canon that Archetype is Arcueid at her most powerful.



Judas said:


> At least mountain level+
> 
> He's no where near universal. Those claims were either jokes or bad trolling.



I?m having a hard time imagining a mountain buster winning against Archetype. He doesn?t seem to have any magic either.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

theleechqueen said:


> Yes it does take a bit of time. The mechanics behind that ability are explained quite well during her first fight with Ciel. You can read the scene here:
> 
> However, it's still meaningless if her opponent doesn't have a way to disable her. Besides, her base physical stats are no slouch either, specially at full power. She has roughly the same stats as Fate Berserker at 30% power, at full power she is literally more than two or three times stronger, faster and durable.



And Berserker's durability is what in comparison to Raizen?



> The problem is that her Curse of Restoration rewinds time every time she takes damage. So it's doubtful whether she can KO'd by physical attacks.



Unless you have something concrete to lean on about CoR, I'm not convinced that she's going to get up from a moutain level+ attack like clockwork.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

I didn’t know about this. This should help me to find some sources to back up my statements.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Arcueid doesn’t need a body to exist, and has interacted with the protagonist in her spirit form. It’s hard to imagine a pure physical attack able to incapacitate her.



And how does the protagonist stack up to Raizen?

Note that I'm simply talking about KO, not him attempting to kill her outright.



> I’m having a hard time imagining a mountain buster winning against Archetype. He doesn’t seem to have any magic either.



Seems like Archetype is in her favor.


Though all in all, I'm skeptical about this, since it doesn't look like a proper limit can be defined.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Raizen could kill Shiki (the protagonist) a thousand times over. But if for whatever reason Raizen decided to let Shiki have the first blood, he’d be certain to die from it.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

So in other words, he's pathetic.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> And Berserker's durability is what in comparison to Raizen?



Well, he tanked three of Rin's A Rank gems (each gem was stated to have enough magical power to blow up a house). More like all they did was blow up his head. A better example of an A Rank magical attack is Cornelius Alba's Sea of Flame:



> Like a wavering mirage rising up into the sky, a sea of blue flames fills the stairway.
> 
> In a matter of seconds, the top of the flames that emerged from the stairs themselves have burned through the second floor and disappear into the ceiling.
> 
> ...



For reference the sublimation temperature of carbon, which most animals are made up of, is 3642 ?C.



> Unless you have something concrete to lean on about CoR, I'm not convinced that she's going to get up from a moutain level+ attack like clockwork.



Well, her regeneration under the full moon hasn't been fully displayed, except that one time in Ciel's route where she regenerated when Shiki slashed a line of death on her neck (even though damage dealt by the MEoDP is supposed to be unhealable).


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## TedMk2 (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> And how does the protagonist stack up to Raizen?
> 
> Note that I'm simply talking about KO, not him attempting to kill her outright.
> 
> ...


Shiki doesn't have anything on Raizen, but I think the point is that she can cope without a physical body. Like I said earlier, even vampires much weaker than her were able to recover instantly from having most of their bodies completely destroyed, so a knockout from physical force alone really doesn't seem feasible. As for her defined limit:

Conveniently already posted in another recent thread.


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## philharmonic21 (Apr 16, 2012)

If this was 30% Arc, I would have given to Raizen since it was shown that due to her using most of her power to resist her impulses and using her power to reconstruct her body from after Shiki used MEoDP on her weakens her enough that she could be probably be incapacitated (although Roa was using Hax to incapacitate her, she was shown to be quite weaken and on the verge of collapsing during their fight due to the above to factors)

But 100% Arc, how the hell is Raizen supposed to do anything to her?

He can't kill her and incapacitating her with just raw power won't work either since she would just keep coming back (strong enough hax would work but Raizen doesn't have any to my knowledge). 

So yeah going have to go with Arc on this one.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

theleechqueen said:


> Well, he tanked three of Rin's A Rank gems (*each gem was stated to have enough magical power to blow up a house*). More like all they did was blow up his head.



You do know that Raizen's durability is mountain level+ at the bare minimum, right?



> Well, her regeneration under the full moon hasn't been fully displayed, except that one time in Ciel's route where she regenerated when Shiki slashed a line of death on her neck (even though damage dealt by the MEoDP is supposed to be unhealable).



How is this supposed to be translated into a sufficient amount of physical force that would render her unconscious?



TedMk2 said:


> Shiki doesn't have anything on Raizen, but I think the point is that she can cope without a physical body. Like I said earlier, even vampires much weaker than her were able to recover instantly from having most of their bodies completely destroyed, so a knockout from physical force alone really doesn't seem feasible. As for her defined limit:



So have they recovered from a KO by an individual who's moutain level+? Again, I'm not saying anything about killing her. He wouldn't have to.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> You do know that Raizen's durability is mountain level+ at the bare minimum, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I just don't understand how physical force alone is supposed to KO someone who can regenerate from effectively nothing almost instantly. DC shouldn't really make any difference. The only thing that's put her out of commission for any reasonable length of time was having her physical existence fundamentally undermined. From what I remember of YYH, neither Raizen nor anyone else had anything like that.

But if you insist on DC feats, I suppose we can wildly powerscale:

Aoko effectively moonbusted in Mahoyo
Aoko < High level servants < Arc
Therefore Arc can recover from moonbusters


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

TedMk2 said:


> I'm sorry, I just don't understand how physical force alone is supposed to KO someone who can regenerate from effectively nothing almost instantly.



Because we should assume that regeneration will cover up her being knocked unconscious, right?



> DC shouldn't really make any difference. The only thing that's put her out of commission for any reasonable length of time was having her physical existence fundamentally undermined. From what I remember of YYH, neither Raizen nor anyone else had anything like that.



It does make a difference unless Nasuverse is exempt from the aspect of NLF. The fact that the majority of the cast isn't touching him as far as physical prowess goes makes the matter worse.

Unless you have something concrete, Arcueid is not beating Raizen with anything less than her best.



> But if you insist on DC feats, I suppose we can wildly powerscale:
> 
> Aoko effectively moonbusted in Mahoyo
> Aoko < High level servants < Arc
> Therefore Arc can recover from moonbusters



The size of said moon is?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> You do know that Raizen's durability is mountain level+ at the bare minimum, right?



Archetype is a lifewiper though (she actually stopped the Earth's rotation). Besides, I was talking more about how would Raizen's destructive capability would stack up against her durability (which is more than two times above Berserker's).



> How is this supposed to be translated into a sufficient amount of physical force that would render her unconscious?



But Curse of Restoration heals physical damage. Why should we assume that being hit by enough raw force to render her unconscious wouldn't count as physical damage?


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Earth Moon, in spite of some jokers saying that it’s a mountain sized moon.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

theleechqueen said:


> Archetype is a lifewiper though (she actually stopped the Earth's rotation). Besides, I was talking more about how would Raizen's destructive capability would stack up against her durability (which is more than two times above Berserker's).



And based on what was shown, Berserker doesn't hold a candle to Raizen.

He might as well be a child.



> But Curse of Restoration heals physical damage. Why should we assume that being hit by enough raw force to render her unsconscious wouldn't count as physical damage?



Regeneration doesn't prevent you from being KO'd.



Sygurgh said:


> Earth Moon, in spite of some jokers saying that it’s a mountain sized moon.



And why would they be inclined to believe that the're mountain sized moons?


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

In the Melty Blood manga Arcueid summons the Moon. The picture shows the Moon destroying a mountain in a hellish background. It contradicts previous canon information.

Raizen wouldn’t be able to kill Berserker. He develops resistance and can’t be killed twice by the same method, even mountain busting attacks.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> And based on what was shown, Berserker doesn't hold a candle to Raizen.
> 
> He might as well be a child.



But he tanked three of Rin's A rank gems. He has at least building+ durability. Also, he tanked several of Gil's Noble Phantasm, and in Fate/Zero is stated that his swords have enough power to split mountains:



> The King of Heroes gave Tokiomi a glance of displeasure. Then he swung his right hand, which was propping up his chin on the edge of the ship. Four swords and spears appeared in the air next to him. The shining primeval Noble Phantasms unleashed a thunderous roar, and flew to impale the filthy mountain of meat that wriggled down below.
> 
> Saber and Rider reacted immediately and jumped away to avoid being caught in the attack, but Caster’s sea monster was in no ways so agile. The four Noble Phantasms hit it head on. Their power, enough to split mountains, blew one-third of the giant beast’s body into nothingness.





> Regeneration doesn't prevent you from being KO'd.



Regeneration by time reversal? Besides, a person is rendered unconscious when they receive a brain injury (when the brain hits the skull). Arc was conscious even after being killed by Shiki. The same goes for Roa, seeing as he could move around as a pair of regenerating ankles.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> In the Melty Blood manga Arcueid summons the Moon. The picture shows the Moon destroying a mountain in a hellish background. It contradicts previous canon information.



Which chapter is this in?



> Raizen wouldn?t be able to kill Berserker. He develops resistance and can?t be killed twice by the same method, even mountain busting attacks.



And this has worked against someone physically comparable to Raizen?


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## philharmonic21 (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> Because we should assume that regeneration will cover up her being knocked unconscious, right?
> 
> It does make a difference unless Nasuverse is exempt from the aspect of NLF. The fact that the majority of the cast isn't touching him as far as physical prowess goes makes the matter worse.
> 
> Unless you have something concrete, Arcueid is not beating Raizen with anything less than her best.



This probably needs a decisive response.

When Arc was at 30% of her power she was KO/Incapacitated on two separate instances. 

First when Shiki used his MEoDP on her which literally attacked her very existence (which she needed to completely reinvent the conceptual structure of her body to recover from it) which incapacitated her and when Roa used his own MEoLP on her that attacked her very life force which KOed her.

Both cases she came back but it took her a long while to recover. So a case can be made that if this was 30% Arc that if she was low on power (from being repeatedly blasted or having to keep bringing herself back, or whatever argument you can make for it) that Raizen could theoretically KO Arc. 

The problem is Archtype Earth is Arc at full power and her with the backing of the Earth and the Moon as well. Her being weakened enough to be KOed with the backing of the Earth and the Moon by just physical force seem unlikely (strong enough hax and the other hand could do it though).

Then you have the fact that Raizen has no knowledge that Arc would come back makes it even worse and after he blasts her once she would basically just come back somewhere else far from him and drop a moon on him.

EDIT: Made a little mistake about what happened with Shiki and Roa so I fixed it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> And this has worked against someone physically comparable to Raizen?



For the record, Berserker was apparently killed 7 times over by a mucher weaker than Raizen attack from excalibur from shit I've heard.

So, becoming immune or not, a reigan or punch ends him.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

theleechqueen said:


> But he tanked three of Rin's A rank gems. He has at least building+ durability. Also, he tanked several of Gil's Noble Phantasm, and in Fate/Zero is stated that his swords have enough power to split mountains:



Raizen's durability is moutain level+ _at bare minimum_. 

It's pointless to bring up building level attacks. And contrary to popular belief, splitting a mountain in two doesn't make you mountain level.



> Regeneration by time reversal? Besides, a person is rendered unconscious when they receive a brain injury (when the brain hits the skull). Arc was conscious even after being killed Shiki. The same goes for Roa, seeing as he could move around as a pair of regenerating ankles.



A person can also be knocked unconscious after receiving  a sufficient amount of pain as well. Something Raizen can provide in abundance with a flick of his finger.

Again, regeneration does not account for her overall state of consciousness.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> For the record, Berserker was apparently killed 7 times over by a mucher weaker than Raizen attack from excalibur from shit I've heard.
> 
> So, becoming immune or not, a reigan or punch ends him.



It’s both true and false. He was killed by a legendary conceptual weapon with unknown properties that somehow nullified his immortality. Gae Bolg can’t destroy mountains but it always targets the heart, destroy the body from within and nullify regeneration. Raizen will be able to kill Berserker once, but his ability will nullify (not tank, but completely ignore) any further damage.

I’d like to add that after Roa killed Arcueid, the reason that she didn’t come back earlier was because she had difficulty to hold back her bloodlust. Archetype doesn’t have this weakness.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Dandy said:
			
		

> Something that's always bugged me about this.
> Okay, so Arc is as strong as Gaia.
> Yet that doesn't mean you need to be planetary to beat her.
> Because it's not like gods in fiction have been piss weak outside of their own verses, amirite



**


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s both true and false. He was killed by a legendary conceptual weapon with unknown properties that somehow nullified his immortality. Gae Bolg can?t destroy mountains but it always targets the heart, destroy the body from within and nullify regeneration.



Um...

Pretty sure I heard Emiya Shirou and Saber killed him with a shot from Caliburn or some shit.

He still had plenty of his lives.

The attack itself is dog piss compared to a casual punch from Raizen.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Um...
> 
> Pretty sure I heard Emiya Shirou and Saber killed him with a shot from Caliburn or some shit.
> 
> ...



Raizen only deals in physical damage. His attack doesn’t have any conceptual property.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Raizen only deals in physical damage. His attack doesn’t have any conceptual property.



He also shoots energy attacks dude. Energy attacks that have been shown vaporizing demons by lower-level characters. He uses energy blasts which can destroy much stronger demons then Arcueid when we consider only her durability, Yes she has no aspect of death, and yes she has a time reversal regen, but she can still feel pain, and she can still be destroyed by an attack above her level of durability with her body.

She may not be able to be killed but she can still go unconscious dude. And Raizen has more than enough fire power to make her go unconscious for a time. He can't kill her due to her being a person that can't be killed unless the earth is destroyed but she can still be knocked out. Especially when its from a guy who has more than enough firepower to take her down. Has she ever even taken a Mountain-level attack?


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Gomu said:


> He also shoots energy attacks dude. Energy attacks that have been shown vaporizing demons by lower-level characters. He uses energy blasts which can destroy much stronger demons then Arcueid when we consider only her durability, Yes she has no aspect of death, and yes she has a time reversal regen, but she can still feel pain, and she can still be destroyed by an attack above her level of durability with her body.



Then it?ll be one death by mountain-splitting attack and one death by energy attack. That?s still ten lives to go. For Archetype, one thing you seem to have a hard time to understand is that the Earth acts like Archetype?s Horcrux. Destroying her body would be an annoyance at best.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Raizen only deals in physical damage. His attack doesn?t have any conceptual property.



And yet he has never been hit by anything that's even remotely comparable to the output of YYH Top/High tiers.


This is just borderline NLF.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Then it?ll be one death by mountain-splitting attack and one death by energy attack. That?s still ten lives to go. For Archetype, one thing you seem to have a hard time to understand is that the Earth acts like Archetype?s Horcrux. Destroying her body would be an annoyance at best.



OK dude... she's not touching him. He's much too fast for her. Not only that he is capable of taking much more than what she can dish out except for the Mountain-level moon possibly. You're reading too much into Arcueid's abilities. And her ability to become stronger over time is great but that skill takes time as well. Time she doesn't have.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 16, 2012)

lolNasu

Arc & GodHand weren't meant for OBD


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Archetype doesn’t become stronger over time. It’s her strongest form. She’s a continent buster, so she should be able to damage someone with mountain level durability.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Show me these feats dude. Give me the feats to shut my fucking mouth up or don't say this shit. You haven't shown shit to compliment what you're saying. I have read some of the shit in Nasuverse with Arcueid, but some of this shit seems really NLF like Judas said. She can't *TAKE* what she can dish out without her regen. That's the spot. That's what we're saying. One energy blast will destroy her body for a moments time.


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## philharmonic21 (Apr 16, 2012)

Gomu said:


> He also shoots energy attacks dude. Energy attacks that have been shown vaporizing demons by lower-level characters. He uses energy blasts which can destroy much stronger demons then Arcueid when we consider only her durability, Yes she has no aspect of death, and yes she has a time reversal regen, but she can still feel pain, and she can still be destroyed by an attack above her level of durability with her body.
> 
> She may not be able to be killed but she can still go unconscious dude. And Raizen has more than enough fire power to make her go unconscious for a time. He can't kill her due to her being a person that can't be killed unless the earth is destroyed but she can still be knocked out.



I already explained this earlier, but she was able to survive long enough to reconstruct her body even after her existence was attacked by Shiki (and she was incapacitated only really because it took her much longer to recreate a new body for herself due to how the MEoDP works) and the only time she was shown to be KO'ed was when in her weaken state she was attacked by Roa and his MEoLP and had her life force snatched away.

You can say if she's weaken enough she could be KOed but since she has the backing of both the Earth and the Moon empowering her in this match. Her being weakened  by just being blasted by Raizen doesn't seem to be enough. If he had some kind of hax to help him he would probably win.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 16, 2012)

Judas said:


> A person can also be knocked unconscious after receiving  a sufficient amount of pain as well. Something Raizen can provide in abundance with a flick of his finger.



But can he cause more more pain than what she already experienced? She was cut into 17 pieces, and she was conscious all the time, unable to regenerate for an entire night. 



> "That's the first time anyone's embarrassed me like that. And it took eighty percent of my power to fully recover. But more importantly, it really, really hurt. It was so painful I thought I was going to go crazy. However, the pain was so great it restored my sanity.
> 
> Do you know what it's like experiencing that over and over for a whole night?"


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

People abuse the term no limit fallacy. Goku could destroy Arcueid easily, but mountain busting attacks don’t mean anything to someone that can regenerate from nothing with time reversal and is basically the manifestation of the planet. Roa regenerated in seconds and Archetype is in an entire different league, that’s not long enough for a knockout.


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## Basilikos (Apr 16, 2012)

I smell lots of NLFs and speculation from those arguing for Arcueid. I don't know if that's intentional or just because Nasuverse tends to be vague about the limits of its characters' abilities.

Seriously, where is the proof that she can survive an onslaught from a YYH top tier?

Either she's got the feats/powerscaling to survive a casual mountain level+ attack spam from Raizen or she dies.

It's that simple.


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## Gomu (Apr 16, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> I smell lots of NLFs and speculation from those arguing for Arcueid. I don't know if that's intentional or just because Nasuverse tends to be vague about the limits of its characters' abilities.
> 
> Seriously, where is the proof that she can survive an onslaught from a YYH top tier?
> 
> ...



I do believe she won't actually die from it.

But she will be incapacitated by an attack far beyond what she has taken. YYH top tiers are capable of mountain level attacks. Raizen was on a comparable level to them when he was hungry full power Raizen has much more power than anyone in YYH once he's at full strength.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 16, 2012)

> Nasuverse tends to be vague about the limits of its characters' abilities.


it's part of the charm


willy is needed here


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## Sygurgh (Apr 16, 2012)

Raizen doesn’t have any conceptual attack (regeneration nullifier, soul destroyer, contract breaker...); it doesn’t matter that he can bust mountains.


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## Black Sabbath II (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm just not seeing Raizen winning. Strength and Speed can only get you so far if you can't keep your opponent down. And consider the fact that someone far weaker than Arcueid was literally vaporized and came back within a few seconds, Raizen just isn't doing the job. Any weaker version of Arcueid would lose, but he stands no chance of beating Archetype Earth with his power alone. Hax is needed. And some pretty damn good hax. Not to mention she has reality warping and probability manipulation on her side which pretty much screws him over completely


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## Xelloss (Apr 16, 2012)

Listen to the emo with trilion of skills.


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## Black Sabbath II (Apr 16, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Listen to the emo with trilion of skills.



You just mad that she solos every fight.


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## TedMk2 (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow, this thread sure went to hell pretty quickly.

Regarding Arc's durability, going by Nasu's comment about her vs Gil, it seems Gil would be able to overpower her with Ea. But the same doesn't seem to be the case for Excalibur, which I think is quantified as a citybuster, so I guess 30% Arc's durability is around that level. Presumably it'd be much higher for Archetype: Earth.


Fluttershy said:


> lolNasu
> 
> Arc & GodHand weren't meant for OBD


At least there's always Aoko Biimu

fully stretched Bazooka


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## Black Sabbath II (Apr 16, 2012)

Wasn't Ea implied (In Nasuverse anyway) to be capable of devouring the world?


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## philharmonic21 (Apr 16, 2012)

MazinFireWars said:


> Wasn't Ea implied (In Nasuverse anyway) to be capable of devouring the world?



That's because how it works in relation to how the world in the Nasuverse works.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Raizen only deals in physical damage. His attack doesn’t have any conceptual property.



Sup Bullshit, I've been seeing you around quite a bit lately.

Caliburn's concept is?



Show me where it's mentioned to have one?

*EDIT - You apparently can't.  Nasu never confirmed the fucking thing had a concept if my little google search told me anything of value.*

Seriously, what does being a conceptual weapon even mean?

Why's that needed for energy to overkill Berserker?

I'm not buying a NLF without actual evidence.

What, going to Claim the fucking Hulk can't kill him either?


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

Bu...but Hulk is conceptual. 

He embodies rage.


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## Xelloss (Apr 16, 2012)

The concept of caliburn is

"The sword of assured victory", now personally I also claim BS over the fact it killed berserker (consider excalibur just took 1 of his lifes on another rout).

This can be taken due to some theories

Caliburn burn him from the inside, and God hand is a coat over the skin.
The concept of "Assured victory" is greater than the one of God hand.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Apr 16, 2012)

Hulk is a special case anyway, since his strength basically becomes minor reality warping when he's mad enough.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Of course 

My bad Judas 

I'll go with a Kamehameha from Goku then 

Or a punch from superman.

Or wonderwoman.

Or a Rider Kick from Ultimate Kuuga.

Etc.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> The concept of caliburn is
> 
> "The sword of assured victory", now personally I also claim BS over the fact it killed berserker (consider excalibur just took 1 of his lifes on another rout).



Not according to anything I've read.

You have a source for that?

I haven't found jack on caliburn having a concept.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Hulk is a special case anyway, since his strength basically becomes minor reality warping when he's mad enough.



Missing the point there buddy.

I could name other characters too.

Hell, I just did.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

I guess Takaya Aiba can't  finish the job either.

Casual island buster and all.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Or Shinkouhyou with the Raikouben 

Or Fukki 

Or Jyoka san the shihouken


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## Xelloss (Apr 16, 2012)

Its on their name

Caliburn "Sword of assured victory"
Excalibur "Sword of promised victory"

Basically 1 give u victory, the other try to give u victory.

God hand concept is "I have 12 lifes and auto adaptation"

The novel make a strick reference that a fight of noble phantasm is a clash of concepts and trying to find a loop hole on their description.

So caliburn concept give her victory, vs god hand 12 lifes but the 12 lives never mention anything that prevent to destroy all of them at the same time.

Like Rho Arias vs Gae bolg

The concept of Rho Arias is to stop all projectiles
The concept of Gae bolg is never fail to hit

When pit vs each other Rho arias was destroyed and did hit for 0 damage, basically both weapons fulfill their concept.

Please Judas Chaos keep on topic.


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## Judas (Apr 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Or Shinkouhyou with the Raikouben
> 
> Or Fukki
> 
> Or Jyoka san the shihouken



A fully charged shot from Zouichi's gun won't be enough either.


You saw the scans.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Apr 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Missing the point there buddy.
> 
> I could name other characters too.
> 
> Hell, I just did.



Not at all. I see your point, Hulk just happens to be a bad example of it since he can punch out time itself when he's mad enough. His strength goes beyond the physical.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 16, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Its on their name



So?

The guy has a penchant for flashy names too apparently according to shit I've read from some other fans.

Fucking source.  No implications.



> Please Judas Chaos keep on topic.



I am on topic, I'm just not buying your bullshit and making light of the wank Nasuverse receives.


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## Distracted (Apr 16, 2012)

So we have someone who has never faced anything this strong, who has only been damaged by a weapon that could hurt concepts.

Against a guy with no real feats except power scaling who is stronger than anything the former has ever faced.

So we have to deal with a potential 'no-limits fallacy' on one hand, and also giving someone powers they don't necessarily have on the other.

An interesting match up, but I'm going to lock it before this thread gets any worse.  If you want to reopen it with something worthwhile let me know.


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## Xelloss (Apr 16, 2012)

Ha, I even state I don't agree with caliburn beating berserker.

I find it funny when someone bring its magic you always go "there no prof of the energy bla bla", I never say she isn't beatable outside conceptual weapons (hell any kind of spiritual attack should be able to hurt her, enough damage can put her down, any source with greater power than gaea can kill her outright).

But whatever.


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