# Luffy, Zoro and Doflamingo vs Katakuri, Cracker, Daifuku and Oven



## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

*Location:* The Mirror World
*Distance:* 100 meters
*Mindset:* Bloodthirsty
*Knowledge : *Luffy shares his knowledge on the abilities of the opposing team with his teammates ,for the SC and veterans manga knowledge on Luffy and Doflamingo and rep for Zoro
My opinion : Luffy takes on Kata like in the manga and their fight will be the longest ,Zoro goes for Cracker and defeats him mid/high diff , while Dofla takes on Oven and Daifuku and beats them mid diff ,after finishing their fights they assist Luffy and help him with Kata ,so imo Luffy Zoro and Dofla take this one high diff.

This is my first thread here so I apologize for any inconveniences

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## Gotenks92 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> *Location:* The Mirror World
> *Distance:* 100 meters
> *Mindset:* Bloodthirsty
> *Knowledge : *Luffy shares his knowledge on the abilities of the opposing team with his teammates ,for the SC and veterans manga knowledge on Luffy and Doflamingo and rep for Zoro
> ...


It is really a close fight but I will say the charlotte family wins this extreme diff I still think Luffy is a little bit weaker than Katakuri so Luffy's team loses unless Luffy's haki blooms again


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## barreltheif (Jun 14, 2019)

The SHs definitely win. Zoro and Doflamingo can each pretty comfortably take on Oven+Daifuku. The other will eventually beat Cracker, or at least hold him off long enough that the other can help. Then they help Luffy finish Katakuri. Probably a high diff fight overall.


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## xenos5 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> *Location:* The Mirror World
> *Distance:* 100 meters
> *Mindset:* Bloodthirsty
> *Knowledge : *Luffy shares his knowledge on the abilities of the opposing team with his teammates ,for the SC and veterans manga knowledge on Luffy and Doflamingo and rep for Zoro
> ...



Zoro hasn’t beaten anyone as strong as Doflamingo or a top Yonko Commander. He would probably be the one fighting Oven and Daifuku at the same time and that would be a difficult fight he could potentially lose (Zoro’s shown a weakness to fighting multiple decently strong opponents at once with Kamazo and Gyukimaru).

I don’t think Doflamingo can beat Cracker. Cracker has superior haki and can outlast Doffy by spamming biscuit soldiers until he’s worn out.

A Bloodthirsty mindset actually works against Luffy if he’s fighting Katakuri. If he uses Gear 4 immediately against Katakuri, Katakuri will have the stamina to outlast it and kill him during the 10 minutes he can’t use haki (Brulee wouldn’t be around to save him this time and none of his teammates can protect him while they’re busy fighting their own opponents).

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> It is really a close fight but I will say the charlotte family wins this extreme diff I still think Luffy is a little bit weaker than Katakuri so Luffy's team loses unless Luffy's haki blooms again


Why do you think so ?I mean Kata is prob the strongest here by a slim margin  or maybe as strong as Luffy   ,but all the people from the first team are stronger than Kata's teammates ,both Zoro and Mingo will have an easier time against Cracker than Luffy did bc he was a bad match up for him ,I think in the end the first team takes it high diff overall .



barreltheif said:


> The SHs definitely win. Zoro and Doflamingo can each pretty comfortably take on Oven+Daifuku. The other will eventually beat Cracker, or at least hold him off long enough that the other can help. Then they help Luffy finish Katakuri. Probably a high diff fight overall.


I agree ,Both Zoro and Dofla are >Cracker or Vets ,Zoro >Cracker ,Zoro>vets .Mingo >cracker , Mingo >vets ,after they finish their fights they assist Luffy and make it a more comfortable win.


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## Gotenks92 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Why do you think so ?I mean Kata is prob the strongest here by a slim margin  or maybe as strong as Luffy   ,but all the people from the first team are stronger than Kata's teammates ,both Zoro and Mingo will have an easier time against Cracker than Luffy did bc he was a bad match up for him ,I think in the end the first team takes it high diff overall .


Because I think It is hard for Doflamingo and Zoro to beat a commander and 2 strong people Daifuku and Oven,
Cracker > Doflamingo > Zoro > Daifuku > Oven thats why I think it is an extreme diff

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> Zoro hasn’t beaten anyone as strong as Doflamingo or a top Yonko Commander. He would probably be the one fighting Oven and Daifuku at the same time and that would be a difficult fight he could potentially lose (Zoro’s shown a weakness to fighting multiple decently strong opponents at once with Kamazo and Gyukimaru).
> 
> I don’t think Doflamingo can beat Cracker. Cracker has superior haki and can outlast Doffy by spamming biscuit soldiers until he’s worn out.
> 
> A Bloodthirsty mindset actually works against Luffy if he’s fighting Katakuri. If he uses Gear 4 immediately against Katakuri, Katakuri will have the stamina to outlast it and kill him during the 10 minutes he can’t use haki (Brulee wouldn’t be around to save him this time and none of his teammates can protect him while they’re busy fighting their own opponents).


That was Zoro without his strongest sword and in the end he one shot a fellow SN ,I could even argue that poison and Zoro's stomach growling make up a huge part of why Zoro had a somewhat hard time .this is fresh Zoro with all 3 of his swords ,the moment Zoro received a third weapon and used a named attack ,even though it was of a low scale for Zoro ,he used the same to one shot Hyouzu ,he decimated Killer,Killer is ,if we low ball him ,at least top vet level ,likely YC4 .

Cracker gets tired by spamming biscuit soldiers they deplete his stamina ,and Cracker is not going to out last Doffy ,Mingo is a monster when it comes to endurance ,Mingo has attacks necessary to break through the soldiers ,it takes more than G3 ap but far less than G4 ,and Mingo's attacks were somewhat matching G4 ,also Cracker is a glass cannon .


Doffy would prob have the easiest time against the vets ,he can parasite Daifuku and make him fight oven ,and after that easily finish the remaining one .

Does it work against Kata as well ? I was under the impression that FS need calmness and composure ,not anger and bloodthirst .as Luffy could not use it against Kaido.This is a genuine question btw.Either way ,I think the one who fights the vets finishes before Luffy's time limit is up and assists against Kuri .


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> Because I think It is hard for Doflamingo and Zoro to beat a commander and 2 strong people Daifuku and Oven, for me:
> Cracker > Doflamingo > Zoro > Daifuku > Oven thats why I think it is an extreme diff


I see ,we differ here ,I have both Mingo and Zoro above them ,why do you think Cracker is >Mingo and Zoro.

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## Gotenks92 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> I see ,we differ here ,I have both Mingo and Zoro above them ,why do you think Cracker is >Mingo and Zoro.


Big Mom sent Cracker because she knows that Luffy defeated Doflamingo  (Cracker said it himself) about Zoro, the dude didn't fight strong opponents to become stronger and we have Law someone who is more or less on Zoro's level (I think he is stronger than Zoro) and the dude got mid diffed by Doflamingo

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> Big Mom sent Cracker because she knows that Luffy defeated Doflamingo  (Cracker said it himself) about Zoro, the dude didn't fight strong opponents to become stronger and we have Law someone who is more or less on Zoro's level (I think he is stronger than Zoro) and the dude got mid diffed by Doflamingo


Zoro is >law though ,they have comparable feats while Law went all out and Zoro has not been pushed so far.Furthermore,Mingo knew everything about Law ,a big part of Law's fighting ability and power is that not many know how his DF works ,Zoro recently one shot a supernova ,and before that humiliated Hawkins by taking 3 of his lives in mere seconds.Moreover ,you can stop Law's df with strong enough Haki ,coa ,and Zoro is known as a master of Coa and a Coa specialist ,has shown boat and flowing haki so he can easily neutralize Law's ability ,and in all physical stats Zoro reigns supreme above Law.


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## Gotenks92 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Zoro is >law though ,they have comparable feats while Law went all out and Zoro has not been pushed so far.Furthermore,Mingo knew everything about Law ,a big part of Law's fighting ability and power is that not many know how has DF works ,Zoro recently one shot a supernova ,and before that humiliated Hawkins by taking 3 of his lives in mere seconds.Moreover ,you can stop Law's df with strong enough Haki ,coa ,and Zoro is know as a master of Coa and a Coa specialist ,has shown boat and flowing haki so he can easily neutralize Law's ability ,and in all physical stats Zoro reigns supreme above Law.


Zoro didn't go all out thats true but still the top 3 supernova are Luffy, Kid, and Law

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## xenos5 (Jun 14, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> That was Zoro without his strongest sword and in the end he one shot a fellow SN ,I could even argue that poison and Zoro's stomach growling make up a huge part of why Zoro had a somewhat hard time .this is fresh Zoro with all 3 of his swords ,the moment Zoro received a third weapon and used a named attack ,even though it was of a low scale for Zoro ,he used the same to one shot Hyouzu ,he decimated Killer,Killer is ,if we low ball him ,at least top vet level ,likely YC4 .



No. No one would accept the poison/hunger excuse as it’s really just simple PIS Zoro went down from a simple slash to the shoulder area when he’s endured worse injuries in the past.     Kamazo/Killer isn’t Snack level, lol. I don’t think Killer is even as strong as Page One since Page One at least overpowered Sanji Briefly (overpowered a kick from Sanji with a swipe that sent him from a bunch of buildings), wasn’t oneshotted, and fought Raid Suit Sanji rather than Base Sanji while Zoro has yet to get his Wano Powerup.

Regardless, it doesn’t change that Zoro showed if he’s fighting two opponents (Kamazo and Gyukimaru who seem to be somewhat around the level of Oven and Daifuku) he will get distracted to the point a big attack will land on him and heavily injure him.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Cracker gets tired by spamming biscuit soldiers they deplete his stamina ,and Cracker is not going to out last Doffy ,Mingo is a monster when it comes to endurance ,Mingo has attacks necessary to break through the soldiers ,it takes more than G3 ap but far less than G4 ,and Mingo's attacks were somewhat matching G4 ,also Cracker is a glass cannon .



Cracker fought for way longer than we ever saw Doffy fight (many hours). Doffy can’t properly defend himself with weaker haki so if he tries to block Cracker’s slashes will slice through it, and considering Cracker tagged Luffy more consistently than Doflamingo his reaction speed is better so he’ll hits on Doflamingo while Doflamingo is less likely to land any hits on him while he’s using his hit and run strategy where he hides behind his biscuit soldiers and attacks only when there is an opening.




Light D Lamperouge said:


> Doffy would prob have the easiest time against the vets ,he can parasite Daifuku and make him fight oven ,and after that easily finish the remaining one .



I don’t disagree with this but I simply think whether it’s Doflamingo vs Cracked or Doflamingo and Zoro vs Cracker, It doesn’t make too much of a difference as Cracker’s biscuit soldiers (each strong enough to tank G3 attacks) would still far outnumber the two of them.




Light D Lamperouge said:


> A Does it work against Kata as well ? I was under the impression that FS need calmness and composure ,not anger and bloodthirst .as Luffy could not use it against Kaido.This is a genuine question btw.Either way ,I think the one who fights the vets finishes before Luffy's time limit is up and assists against Kuri .



Katakuri was shouting and completely intended to kill when he was fighting Snakeman Luffy yet his Futuresight worked well enough to allow him to weave through Black Mamba/a Jet Culverin Gatling.

And bloodthirst =\= anger to begin with. Bloodlust is a condition used in VS battles specifically to make sure characters use their most powerful abilities from the very start rather than starting out with their less powerful techniques to test their opponent like they might normally do in character.

Even if Oven and Daifuku are finished before the G4 time limit is up, neither Doflamingo nor Zoro (though I don’t see how they’d get past the biscuit soldiers to even be able to attempt to interfere with Luffy and Katakuri’s fight) are going to be able to keep up with a battle where both characters are massively faster than them and using attacks far above their level. Keep in mind Doflamingo was blitzed by Boundman, yet Katakuri kept up with an even faster G4 form (Snakeman). Whoever tries to assist will just get caught in the crossfire rather than actually being able to make any difference, the speed difference is just too great.

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 14, 2019)

Gotenks92 said:


> Zoro didn't go all out thats true but still the top 3 supernova are Luffy, Kid, and Law


Sharing a panel with Luffy does not guarantee that Kid and Law are top 3 sn ,Kid has been taking Ls throughout the NW ,him lifting some rocks with Luffy does not mean he is stronger than everyone .There was a clear cut difference between Luffy and Law shown in DR,Law could not achieve his dream and had to rely on Luffy.I already presented why Zoro is >Law.


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## MO (Jun 14, 2019)

Neither Zoro or doffy are stronger than cracker. 

The veterans probably lose to whoever they are fighting tho. They can maybe pull a win of Zoro but not doffy. The Sweet generals duo will beat whoever they are fighting. It depends on how quickly the veterans get beat


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## xenos5 (Jun 14, 2019)

MO said:


> Neither Zoro or doffy are stronger than cracker.
> 
> The veterans probably lose to whoever they are fighting tho. They can maybe pull a win of Zoro but not doffy. The Sweet generals duo will beat whoever they are fighting. *It depends on how quickly the veterans get beat*



Cracker can hold off Zoro and Doflamingo at the same time. The amount of biscuit soldiers he can create would allow for that (also considering how even one of them can tank G3 attacks, they can reform, and Cracker can just keep creating more and more). Once Luffy runs out of G4 and Katakuri kills him during the 10 minutes he can't use haki he's free to assist his brother in beating Zoro and Doffy.

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## barreltheif (Jun 15, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> I don’t disagree with this but I simply think whether it’s Doflamingo vs Cracked or Doflamingo and Zoro vs Cracker, It doesn’t make too much of a difference as Cracker’s biscuit soldiers (each strong enough to tank G3 attacks) would still far outnumber the two of them.



Biscuit soldiers never tanked G3 attacks. That was the real Cracker in the armor, using CoA to tank Luffy's attacks.
Hard to imagine Cracker beating Zoro or Doflamingo, though I can see him stalling one of them for a long time.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 15, 2019)

Luffy > Katakuri 
Zoro > Cracker
Doffy > Oven + Daifuku


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## Corax (Jun 15, 2019)

First team. Luffy after force haki training and perfection of future sight should be comfortably stronger than Katakuri.Wano Zoro can beat  Oven and Daifuku. Doflamingo can at least hold if not beat Cracker.

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 15, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> No. No one would accept the poison/hunger excuse as it’s really just simple PIS Zoro went down from a simple slash to the shoulder area when he’s endured worse injuries in the past.     Kamazo/Killer isn’t Snack level, lol. I don’t think Killer is even as strong as Page One since Page One at least overpowered Sanji Briefly (overpowered a kick from Sanji with a swipe that sent him from a bunch of buildings), wasn’t oneshotted, and fought Raid Suit Sanji rather than Base Sanji while Zoro has yet to get his Wano Powerup.
> 
> Regardless, it doesn’t change that Zoro showed if he’s fighting two opponents (Kamazo and Gyukimaru who seem to be somewhat around the level of Oven and Daifuku) he will get distracted to the point a big attack will land on him and heavily injure him.
> 
> ...


So we can agree that the situation was PIS ,but it does not change the fact that Zoro one shot him the moment he received a third weapon ,and that was not a sword ,and moreover he was missing his most powerful sword , here he has all 3 of them from the beginning .Page one was ragdolled by RS Sanji and it was Sanji who put on the suit for the first time ,Killer actually put up a better fight until Zoro got serious .May I remind you ,this is a 100 percent fresh Zoro with all of his weapons .Killer would have never landed a hit without the interference of Gyuki ,and was later one shot by a "santoryu" Zoro who was missing his most powerful sword and was not at 100 percent.


Cracker fought Luffy longer than WB and Akainu fought ,does it mean he can outlast them in a battle ,I would say no .Mingo can fight Cracker from the air using his strings and his awakening that could match some G4 attacks and fight Cracker ,Mingo has >G3 ap ,plus you are comparing post GK Doffy who could barely keep up with G2 ,but pre GK Doffy was Blitzing G2 ,this is also a fresh Doffy.

Zoro can spam ISDS which is mountain level + as an attack ,that would casually rip through all Cracker's soldiers and Doflamingo has attacks that matched and kept G4 Luffy at bay ,Both of them have an easier time against Cracker than Luffy did ,Cracker is a bad match up for Luffy,but he is not for Zoro or Mingo.


I would disagree with this ,fodder was of help in Kata vs Luffy  ,I am talking about Flambe ,and fodder was of help in Cracker vs Luffy as well ,Nami and the homies .If Flambe can interfere and influence the battle I do not see why Zoro and Mingo who are tiers and tiers above her cannot.


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## Kylo Ren (Jun 15, 2019)

Corax said:


> First team. Luffy after force haki training and perfection of future sight should be comfortably stronger than Katakuri.Wano Zoro can beat  Oven and Daifuku. Doflamingo can at least hold if not beat Cracker.


This


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## Topi Jerami (Jun 15, 2019)

Not sure if Katakuri can actually break free from Parasite. Boundman can, yet Jozu can't.

Assuming Katakuri can't break free from Parasite, and the fact that Cracker, Daifuku and Oven are hopeless against it anyway.
Then Doffy solo, Luffy and Zoro will only watch circus as the clowns are destroying each other.

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## Yasu (Jun 15, 2019)

Charlotte Family (as long as Katakuri don't stab himself in the middle of the fight)

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 15, 2019)

Yasu said:


> Charlotte Family (as long as Katakuri don't stab himself in the middle of the fight)


Kata may be the strongest here by a small margin ,or maybe even with Luffy ,but the rest of his team is outclassed by the fighters from the first team ,Zoro and Mingo finish their respective battles before Kata vs Luffy ,moreover Luffy shared his info on Cracker so they have an easier time battling him ,later on they assist Luffy in taking down Kata ,and the entire battle is high diff overall .


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## Topi Jerami (Jun 15, 2019)

The moment Zoro learns Breath of All Things aka advanced CoA, Cracker's biscuit soldiers are nothing more than paper soldiers for him.
Eh wait, he already does...


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## Yasu (Jun 15, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Kata may be the strongest here by a small margin ,or maybe even with Luffy ,but the rest of his team is outclassed by the fighters from the first team ,Zoro and Mingo finish their respective battles before Kata vs Luffy ,moreover Luffy shared his info on Cracker so they have an easier time battling him ,later on they assist Luffy in taking down Kata ,and the entire battle is high diff overall .



Luffy had harder time vs Cracker than Katakuri and needed the help of Nami how can Doffy defeat him....his CoA is even < than Luffy's which was even with Cracker's and idk about Zoro but his CoA should be same as Doffy's at the best so he can't take on Cracker as well (Zoro need at least 1/2 power ups to be able to fight/defeat YC material a new sword and another black blade a better sword for a swordman it's like a new gear for Luffy once Zoro will have this sure they can win but with the current status Charlotte family is above)


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## Topi Jerami (Jun 15, 2019)

Yasu said:


> Luffy had harder time vs Cracker than Katakuri and needed the help of Nami how can Doffy defeat him


How can Luffy had a harder time against Cracker than against Katakuri? Luffy got dominated by Katakuri, which resulted in him: got buried in the rubble and escaping using Brulee.

Post Cracker fight, Luffy was even still strong enough to take on Sanji and endured Sanji's beating, and then post Cracker and Sanji fight, Luffy still could put up a resistance against Enraged Army.

If we're counting Nami's help to conclude that Luffy had harder time against Cracker than against Doffy, then in Doffy fight Luffy got help from Law and his Gamma Knife (which is apparenly his ultimate move, at least until today), gladiators worth 1 village, Gatz and Viola. And Luffy was sleeping like a baby for 7 days post Doffy fight, unlike post Cracker fight that he still could face Sanji and Enraged Army.



Yasu said:


> his CoA is even < than Luffy's which was even with Cracker's and idk about Zoro but his CoA should be same as Doffy's at the best so he can't take on Cracker as well


Alabasta Zoro already learned Advanced CoA (Breath of All Things), while current Luffy's still learning it. It's not confirmed yet that Luffy's CoA is above Zoro's.

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## Yasu (Jun 15, 2019)

Topi Jerami said:


> How can Luffy had a harder time against Cracker than against Katakuri? Luffy got dominated by Katakuri, which resulted in him: got buried in the rubble and escaping using Brulee.
> 
> Post Cracker fight, Luffy was even still strong enough to take on Sanji and endured Sanji's beating, and then post Cracker and Sanji fight, Luffy still could put up a resistance against Enraged Army.
> 
> ...



Stop with that Breath of Al Sh*** it's just a technique not an advanced CoA and at that time Haki was not even a thing...Zoro might know how to use CoA Better than Luffy cuz as a swordman that's what he have to learn so most likely he know that sh** already but the effectiveness of that is still based on your CoA level....u can learn that even by having a sh** CoA

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 15, 2019)

Yasu said:


> Luffy had harder time vs Cracker than Katakuri and needed the help of Nami how can Doffy defeat him....his CoA is even < than Luffy's which was even with Cracker's and idk about Zoro but his CoA should be same as Doffy's at the best so he can't take on Cracker as well (Zoro need at least 1/2 power ups to be able to fight/defeat YC material a new sword and another black blade a better sword for a swordman it's like a new gear for Luffy once Zoro will have this sure they can win but with the current status Charlotte family is above)


Luffy did not have a harder time against |Cracker than against Katakuri ,Kata had to nerf himself ,Brulee .Cracker was a bad match up for Luffy ,but he is not for Zoro and Mingo.Luffy needed Law and the entirety of DR to to fight Doffy ,and Doffy was nerfed by GK ,with a decrease in almost all stats.
Zoro has been shown using advanced haki ,and he beats Cracker in all other stats ,swordsmanship strength endurance etc .Zoro can spam mountain level + attacks ,his nameless wrist slash while under the pressure of extreme gravity pusehd back Fuji ,an Admiral ,Zoro has not been pushed by anyone so far in the NW ,and has shown feats that enable him to beat YC chars ,bar maybe the YC1 chars .


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## xenos5 (Jun 15, 2019)

Topi Jerami said:


> Not sure if Katakuri can actually break free from Parasite. Boundman can, yet Jozu can't.
> 
> Assuming Katakuri can't break free from Parasite, and the fact that Cracker, Daifuku and Oven are hopeless against it anyway.
> Then Doffy solo, Luffy and Zoro will only watch circus as the clowns are destroying each other.



Mochi Shapeshifting, Growing Extra Mochi Arms, Power Mochi, The Trident. Katakuri has plenty of ways of breaking out of it.

Cracker can just stay inside one of his biscuit soldiers and I doubt Doffy can override Cracker’s control of it.


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## Dunno (Jun 15, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Luffy takes on Kata like in the manga and their fight will be the longest ,Zoro goes for Cracker and defeats him mid/high diff , while Dofla takes on Oven and Daifuku and beats them mid diff ,after finishing their fights they assist Luffy and help him with Kata ,so imo Luffy Zoro and Dofla take this one high diff.





xmysticgohanx said:


> Luffy > Katakuri
> Zoro > Cracker
> Doffy > Oven + Daifuku


Pretty much this.

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## Corax (Jun 15, 2019)

Dofla for sure can parasite Cracker's soldiers. He attaches strings to limbs and turns people/objects in his puppets. As long as something uses limbs he can control it. May be he can't control slugs but this doesn't matter much here.


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## xenos5 (Jun 15, 2019)

Corax said:


> Dofla for sure can parasite Cracker's soldiers. He attaches strings to limbs and turns people/objects in his puppets. As long as something uses limbs he can control it. May be he can't control slugs but this doesn't matter much here.



How can he manipulate something that’s already being manipulated by Cracker? I don’t think we’ve ever seen Doffy override someone else’s DF control.

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## Steven (Jun 15, 2019)

Corax said:


> Dofla for sure can parasite Cracker's soldiers. He attaches strings to limbs and turns people/objects in his puppets. As long as something uses limbs he can control it. May be he can't control slugs but this doesn't matter much here.


Baseless claim

Cracker Haki>>>>Doffys.


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## Vivo Diez (Jun 15, 2019)

Katakuri == Luffy
Cracker >  Doflamingo
Daifuku and Oven > Zoro

Don't see how Zoro can take on two equivalents of Page One, don't see how Doflamingo can beat Cracker when Cracker clearly has better feats even without using his DF, can't see how Luffy can beat Katakuri with no PIS/CIS involved.

Even if we switch up the matchups, it's doubtful if Zoro could even consistently break biscuit soldiers without getting killed. Luffy needed G4, PIS/Nami's help just to do that.

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## Dunno (Jun 15, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Katakuri == Luffy
> Cracker >  Doflamingo
> Daifuku and Oven > Zoro
> 
> ...


Maybe by low-diffing them the same way Sanji did?

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## Vivo Diez (Jun 15, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Maybe by low-diffing them the same way Sanji did?



Oven had the unfortunate role of being the punching bag for everyone, yet nobody managed to properly do any serious damage to him. Sanji clearly struggled with Daifuku and Page One.

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Lol this is a stomp thread. Zoro solos Cracker, Oven and Daifuku. Cracker is a mid diff fight tops for Zoro who can bust mountains and will cut Cracker's soldiers left and right like butter, especially considering he is confirmed advanced Haki flow user based on Grandpa Hyou's definition. He can cut Cracker biscuits casually with his Haki fire and ability to cut "Every thing and nothing". Oven and Daifuku together give Zoro a low mid diff considering Nittoryu Zoro missing his strongest sword low/mid diffed Killer in a 2v1 situation and Killer by portrayal is around Urouge level and above Snack and significantly stronger than Oven and Daifuku. We can all agree Santoryu Zoro low diffs Snack. Add in some help from Doffy's clone and this fight is a major stomp.

Any body who is retarded enough to suggest Cracker can give Zoro any better fight than Pica did should basically stop reading One Piece cuz there is zero implication in manga of that what so ever. Cracker is absolute horse shit and one of them most overrated characters in manga period because he was lucky enough to face Luffy who is a time restricted fighter and defensive fighter like Cracker is his worst nightmare. If Zoro faced Cracker instead of Luffy, he woulda legit gave him Pica treatment with his TSAR bomba level 100+ megatons casual mountain busting Haki slashes, advanced armament fire Haki and breath of all things, ridiculous range, G2++ speed and the fact that he can dish out high Boundman level attacks for hours.

Also for the record Pica shits on Cracker in a fight, Cracker literally can not do squat to Pica with his garbage attack potency and mother fucker is too slow to dodge that city shaking, town launch punch. A few punches from Pica and Cracker is dead.

 Then Doffy and Luffy low/mid diff Kata in a 2v1 situation

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Also before anybody brings Killer was nerfed bullshit, let me set the record straight and educate you kids.


--Zoro was missing his strongest weapon, and couln't perform mountain busters, and couldn't have proper CqC fight
 --Zoro was in 2v1 situation, where Benkei was constantly being involved, he actually avoided Benkei at one point 
--Zoro had been malnourshed and had been on poision diet --Zoro never used Lai moves, his fastest moves. 
Almost all the Zoro fights initially look like kinda equal fights, Zoro vs Monet, Zoro vs Hyozou, until he uses his most basic technique (oni giri being one of them), competent opponents line Ryuma, Kaku, Mr1 are able to deal with that and make Zoro exert more of his arsenal. Killer couldn't do that
 --Zoro passing out can also not be used as only reason why Killer could even land that hit was due to someone else's involvement. And even then Zoro didn't pass out right away. He actually was standing, smiling and sqeezing the scythe, making his wound worse off, while Killer still couldn't get his scythe back. Insane pain tolerance if you ask me, when Zoro is squeezing scythe that hit his lungs. In contrast Hody didn't need no outside help to mortally wound Luffy with a bite and Luffy wasn't malnourished unlike Zoro. But even then Hody did more damage, Hody was only K.Oed while Luffy would have died without jinbe's blood. 
So that leaves you with 3 options 1)You think Zoro shits on Killer and Luffy shits on Hody
 2)You think 2 sword malnourished Zoro ~ Killer and Benkei and Hody >> Luffy
 3)You are biased


--We saw in the latest chapter a good part of killer's face, there is no cuts on it, no burn marks or any signs of damage. Even we could see near his eyes before and there is no damage
 --Killer can still incorporate his fighting style to his new weapons to a great degree as he was shown spinning around similarly. He increased his attack power and range due to longer, heavier and most likely better weapons. In compensation he lost the spinning momentum. At best its an even deal, logically killer gained more
 --Killer also lost that ridiculous mask that prevents him from seeing anything without CoO. Actually being able to see makes your reaction time and overall fighting ability a lot better
 --Killer also is the most motivated now than he has ever been as he is fighting for his "PARTNER" and best friend. He can't fuck up even a little, he needs to be at his absolute best. Which he was All and all Nitoryu Zoro in a 2v1 Situation, low/mid diffed Killer. In a pure fight in Mirror world, Nittoryu Zoro low diffs Kill



Sentoryu Zoro no diffs

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Killer low/mid diffs Oven or Daifuku individually, high diffs them together. Zoro low diffs killer. Do the maths. Veteran level fodders like Oven, Daifuku, Page One are non factors to Zoro. 

You need at least 4th Yonko commander level people like Hawkins, Killer, Snack, Vergo, Judge to give Zoro a low diff. 

I tend to downplay Zoro's feats but he is literally king of feats, showing 8 times as much speed as G2, stopping a moving dragon's charge which is better feat than Oars moving Moby Dick, busting and lifting a fucking mountain, casually one shotting FBH Haki user with his advanced flow Haki, low diffing Hawkins 3 times, low diffing Killer, tanking Fujitora's gravity attack which left a crater as big as diced Mochi and even overpowering the gravity with wrist slash, tanking G3+ punch form Pica with a minor bruse, taking an impaling stab from Killer and laughing at that shit. 

Holy shit friend is insane. At least Yonko First Mate level but could be argued as Low top tier.

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Zoro is like Gear 4th Boundman but faster attack speed and much more lethal with better Haki and no time restriction.

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## NooksBrigade (Jun 15, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Zoro solos Cracker, Oven and Daifuku. Then Doffy and Luffy low/mid diff Kata in a 2v1 situation

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

NooksBrigade said:


>


I just spit facts

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## Dunno (Jun 15, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Oven had the unfortunate role of being the punching bag for everyone, yet nobody managed to properly do any serious damage to him. Sanji clearly struggled with Daifuku and Page One.


Oven and Daifuku seemed to be decent opponents for RS-less Sanji. RS-Sanji is quite a bit stronger than that though and Zoro is even stronger than him. Page One is another matter. He hasn't shown anything that would put him at veteran YC level. It all points to him getting his ass kicked in a quick and easy fashion by Sanji. Keep in mind that Sanji was basically trying out the suit for the first time, tseting it's abilities, including it's ability to withstand hits. Once he got serious, Page One didn't really stand a chance if the speech bubbles at the end of the chapter is anything to go by. We also saw how Zoro handled fighting a SN and a probably Jack-level opponent at the same time with only two swords. Both of these guys are weaker than that and Zoro has all of his swords.

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Kyoshiro is a fucking beast lol. No way in hell can Katakuri handle City level plus 720 pound cannon considering his strongest attack Diced Mochi is absolute horse shit.

Kyoushiro >= King based on that feat alone. Zoro casually replicated and surpassed King's best feat underwater in Sabaody.


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## Shuyaku99 (Jun 15, 2019)

Daifuku and Oven are non-factors, veteran tier fighters are no threat for the trio (each of them being at least YC2). 

I love Katakuri but Zoro's AP completely shits on his, and Cracker's clones can't withstand mountain+ attacks, if Cracker starts off in his armor he litterally gets one-shotted by Zoro. Luffy and Doffy ass-rape Kuri while Zoro mid diffs Cracker.

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## Topi Jerami (Jun 15, 2019)

Yasu said:


> Stop with that Breath of Al Sh*** it's just a technique not an advanced CoA and at that time Haki was not even a thing...Zoro might know how to use CoA Better than Luffy cuz as a swordman that's what he have to learn so most likely he know that sh** already but the effectiveness of that is still based on your CoA level....u can learn that even by having a sh** CoA


It's advanced CoA. The description by Grandpa Hyou fits with the description from Zoro's master in East Blue dojo.

It's the same technique that will make Cracker's hard biscuit soldiers turn into paper soldiers in front of Zoro. And cool thing, Zoro has learned not basic CoA, but actually advanced CoA since way back in Alabasta arc, in an actual fight not training session.
While years later Luffy is still learning it with many failed attempts. Zoro's CoA is some levels above Luffy's imo.


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## Sade (Jun 15, 2019)

The SH take this high/extreme diff

Zoro can take care of two vets dudes.
Luffy >~ Katakuri ( Current Luffy > Kata)
Doflamingo High diff Cracker.


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## Shishio ishere (Jun 15, 2019)

Shuyaku99 said:


> Daifuku and Oven are non-factors, veteran tier fighters are no threat for the trio (each of them being at least YC2).
> 
> I love Katakuri but Zoro's AP completely shits on his, and Cracker's clones can't withstand mountain+ attacks, if Cracker starts off in his armor he litterally gets one-shotted by Zoro. Luffy and Doffy ass-rape Kuri while Zoro mid diffs Cracker.


Zoro truly is king of feats, although I don't like how overpowered Oda is making him look.
Like Zoro has all the qualities of an amazing character
-Kindness
-Badassary
-Will Power
-Connection
-Charisma
-Great Speeches
-Is Funny
-Is great leader

But he is way to overpowered lol. Oda gotta tone it down with him mauling supernovas left and right. 
I agree Cracker does indeed get one shot if he starts off in armor. ISDS would cut straight through him and his biscuits. Only way Cracker gives Zoro mid diff if he has time to prep and makes army of 50 soldiers around him before Zoro even arrives.

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## Guan Yu (Jun 16, 2019)

Doffy parasites Oven and Daifuku to kill each other while helping Luffy to rape Katakuri.

Meanwhile Zoro soloing Cracker in a mid diff fight.



Shishio ishere said:


> Zoro truly is king of feats, although I don't like how overpowered Oda is making him look.
> Like Zoro has all the qualities of an amazing character
> -Kindness
> -Badassary
> ...


Well, you can't blame the guy. Oda is afterall the biggest Zoro wanker on earth.

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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2019)

Luffy's team wins.

Luffy stalls Kata like he did.

Doflamingo can stall Cracker with awakening and support Zoro despite him not needing it with Black Knights against Daifuck and Oven.

You should've restricted Parasite because it basically ensures the victory for Luffy's team even if they would've had a disadvantage here (which they don't).

Parasite renders Biscuit soldiers, Oven and Daifuck useless and makes them easy victims for Zoro's lethal slashes. The only one arguably able to break free from it is Katakuri thanks to his scaling to Luffy.

Luffy's team high diffs at worst.


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## RayanOO (Jun 16, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> Parasite renders Biscuit soldiers, Oven and Daifuck useless and makes them easy victims for Zoro's lethal slashes. The only one arguably able to break free from it is Katakuri thanks to his scaling to Luffy



I don't think Oven can be parasited , his heat Df can maybe burn the string, Oven doesn't need to move to activate his DF.

For Cracker I don't know too : imagine Dofla parasites the soldiers, Cracker can easily create an other arm on the biscuit to cut the string or shapeshift the biscuit.

Daifuku's genie cannot be parasited too it is only smoke but Daifuku can be and if he doesn't rub his belly no genie.

I agree with you Kata will never get caught in parasite due to COO and even if he is caught he can shapeshift with mochi.

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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> You should've restricted Parasite because it basically ensures the victory for Luffy's team even if they would've had a disadvantage here (which they don't).



Who says biscuit soldiers can't break out of parasite?

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Who says biscuit soldiers can't break out of parasite?


I do not think they can be parasited to begin with ,Cracker could just reshape them ,but in the end it does not even matter ,Zoro can slice them up easily .


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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> I do not think they can be parasited to begin with ,Cracker could just reshape them ,but in the end it does not even matter ,*Zoro can slice them up easily* .



Ehhh, Zoro still hasn't proven if he's at least as strong as beginning of WCI G4 Luffy.

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## Guan Yu (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ehhh, Zoro still hasn't proven if he's at least as strong as beginning of WCI G4 Luffy.


Zoro will cut those biscuit like a paper using the Breath of All Things.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Who says biscuit soldiers can't break out of parasite?



If they can please go ahead and provide evidence.

If he reshapes them they will have openings for other incoming attack or will get entangled in the strings, not to mention they can be turned into strings by Doflas awakening.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ehhh, Zoro still hasn't proven if he's at least as strong as beginning of WCI G4 Luffy.


You don't need G4 ap ,which btw Zoro has ,to beat the soldiers ,you just need >g3 ap ,and Zoro can spam mountain busting attacks ,beats Cracker in all stats ,Cracker was a bad match up for Luffy ,but he is not for Zoro ,Zoro beats him mid/high diff.


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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> *You don't need G4 ap* ,which btw Zoro has ,to beat the soldiers ,you just need >g3 ap



Yes you do. Luffy was forced to go G4 to break the first biscuit soldier, he ran out of options.



TheWiggian said:


> If they can please go ahead and provide evidence.
> 
> If he reshapes them they will have openings for other incoming attack or will get entangled in the strings, not to mention they can be turned into strings by Doflas awakening.



Provide evidence that he can't. G4 broke out of it. Parasite is such a broken plot device that you can't even define the setup needed to execute it, so don't bring it up like DD can just use it freely.

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## Dark Knight (Jun 16, 2019)

You have to be high on cheap drugs if you think that Zoro mid-diffs Cracker. Match up issues or not, that would mean he is as strong and arguable stronger than Luffy which most definitely is not the case!

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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Provide evidence that he can't. *G4 broke out of it.* Parasite is such a broken plot device that you can't even define the setup needed to execute it, so don't bring it up like DD can just use it freely.



You said it yourself. G4 was needed to break out of parasite and it was more than enough to break them while they remained roughly around G2/3. 

Doffy can basically take over his army. You beat your own argument.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Yes you do. Luffy was forced to go G4 to break the first biscuit soldier, he ran out of options.
> 
> 
> 
> Provide evidence that he can't. G4 broke out of it. Parasite is such a broken plot device that you can't even define the setup needed to execute it, so don't bring it up like DD can just use it freely.


He pummelled  the biscuit soldiers with G4 ,I already said you do not need G4 ap and Zoro has G4 ap already ,you just need above G3 ap ,the difference between g4 ap and g3 ap is immense ,I do not even know what you are arguing when Zoro already showcased g4 ap.


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## Guan Yu (Jun 16, 2019)

Dark Knight said:


> You have to be high on cheap drugs if you think that Zoro mid-diffs Cracker. Match up issues or not, that would mean he is as strong and arguable stronger than Luffy which most definitely is not the case!


Zoro came out of the Time Skip stronger than Luffy.


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## Beast (Jun 16, 2019)

So basically Zoro can cut everything except for Doffys strings and DD can turn anything into strings and even crackers own DF power, even Zoans get turned to strings around DD apparently.

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## xenos5 (Jun 16, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> You said it yourself. G4 was needed to break out of parasite and it was more than enough to break them while they remained roughly around G2/3.
> 
> Doffy can basically take over his army. You beat your own argument.



Nope. I think you're wrong in assuming the Biscuit Soldiers can be manipulated by someone else in the first place. They are a DF construct controlled by Cracker. Trying to control them would be like trying to manipulate someone already controlled by a different manipulator in HxH. Doffy has never been showing overriding someone else's control of their own DF material.

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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> You said it yourself. G4 was needed to break out of parasite and it was more than enough to break them while they remained roughly around G2/3.
> 
> Doffy can basically take over his army. You beat your own argument.



So you're saying G4 was more than enough to break out of parasite, meaning something weaker that G4 could do it, something that has been shown to be stronger than G2/G3 possibly? Something like a biscuit soldier perhaps ?

Regardless, you:
a) Don't know if parasite would work on a DF construct
b) Don't know what the prerequisites for parasite are, nobody does

So rip.

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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> So you're saying G4 was more than enough to break out of parasite, meaning something weaker that G4 could do it, something that has been shown to be stronger than G2/G3 possibly? Something like a biscuit soldier perhaps ?
> 
> Regardless, you:
> a) Don't know if parasite would work on a DF construct
> ...



I might need to clarify myself because you seem to misunderstand.

G4 was needed to break out of parasite and it was more than enough to break the biscuit soldiers.

Result is the same though, the biscuits get controlled by parasite and i honestly doubt they're as powerful as Jozu who barely stopped the control meaning they will be used against their own creator like marionettes.



xenos5 said:


> Nope. I think you're wrong in assuming the Biscuit Soldiers can be manipulated by someone else in the first place. They are a DF construct controlled by Cracker. Trying to control them would be like trying to manipulate someone already controlled by a different manipulator in HxH. Doffy has never been showing overriding someone else's control of their own DF material.



Could be, we don't know for sure since it's been said that he turned the whole ground into strings, it might even include the *seastone* of the arena. If that's the case it's safe to assume he can do the same to devilfruit substances.

That said it doesn't necessarily needs to come down to the seastone since he showed the ability to imbue the awakening with Koka and we all know Haki can defend against and/or override devilfruit effects.


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## xenos5 (Jun 16, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> Could be, we don't know for sure since it's been said that he turned the whole ground into strings, it might even include the *seastone* of the arena. If that's the case it's safe to assume he can do the same to devilfruit substances.



We never saw that though, so there’s no proof of it.



TheWiggian said:


> That said it doesn't necessarily needs to come down to the seastone since he showed the ability to imbue the awakening with Koka and we all know Haki can defend against and/or override devilfruit effects.



Cracker’s Haki is > Doffy’s. Remember Luffy saying it was the hardest armament he’d come across so far? Or Cracker cutting G4 Luffy’s arm when Doffy failed to hurt G4 Luffy even with awakening?

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> We never saw that though, so there’s no proof of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Cracker’s Haki is > Doffy’s. Remember Luffy saying it was the hardest armament he’d come across so far? Or Cracker cutting G4 Luffy’s arm when Doffy failed to hurt G4 Luffy even with awakening?


There are many translations ,but this is Viz's ,which I believe is regarded as the best ,basically Luffy does not say that it is the hardest ,only that it is extremely hard.


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## xenos5 (Jun 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> There are many translations ,but this is Viz's ,which I believe is regarded as the best ,basically Luffy does not say that it is the hardest ,only that it is extremely hard.



Even if that’s accurate, did he ever say the same thing or anything similar about Doflamingo’s haki? As I recall it he blocked an Armament kick from Doffy intended to kill Law just fine with his own Armament covered Leg.

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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> We never saw that though, so there’s no proof of it.



We know there were buildings made of seastone and it's been literally stated that he turned the whole ground and buildings into strings so it's still up in the air.



xenos5 said:


> Cracker’s Haki is > Doffy’s.



Not the ones on the biscuits, those achieved the same as Dofla's strings stopping G2/3 level attacks with the difference that the biscuits struggled and Doffy did not.



xenos5 said:


> Remember Luffy saying it was the hardest armament he’d come across so far?



It was a hard biscuit, special creation of the devilfruit. This was literally explained by Cracker afterwards and named in direct combat. There's no indication Haki is mixed into the armor, simply real hard biscuit. In fact the hardest Luffy came across as funny as it sounds.

If it were Haki, water wouldn't have affected it going from harder than steel to soft enough to eat without problems.



xenos5 said:


> Or Cracker cutting G4 Luffy’s arm when Doffy failed to hurt G4 Luffy even with awakening?



Cracker's real body which is not argued about here. His biscuits are clearly inferior in Haki strenght and superior in durability to his real body.


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## MO (Jun 16, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Biscuit soldiers never tanked G3 attacks. That was the real Cracker in the armor, using CoA to tank Luffy's attacks.
> Hard to imagine Cracker beating Zoro or Doflamingo, though I can see him stalling one of them for a long time.


yes they did. Cracker stated the biscuit soilder that luffy defeated is just one of the many he can create. they can all tank g3.

zoro is being stronger than cracker is one of the most retarted statements yet.

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## Dunno (Jun 16, 2019)

MO said:


> zoro is being stronger than cracker is one of the most retarted statements yet.


It really isn't. Two-sword Zoro just fought a SN and someone who might very well be on the same level of Shutenmaru and Jack at the same time and he managed to take out the SN. You might believe that Zoro is weaker than Cracker, but to claim that him being stronger than Cracker would be retarded is, pardon my French, retarded.

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## MO (Jun 16, 2019)

Dunno said:


> It really isn't. Two-sword Zoro just fought a SN and someone who might very well be on the same level of Shutenmaru and Jack at the same time and he managed to take out the SN. You might believe that Zoro is weaker than Cracker, but to claim that him being stronger than Cracker would be retarded is, pardon my French, retarded.


very well be on the same level as jack or shutenmaru? tf!? Killer hasn't done anything to prove he is even close to that level for you to say he could very well be on that level.

it is retarded.Period. Zoro is lacking in feats,hype, and protrayal to say he is on the same level let alone above cracker.

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## Corax (Jun 16, 2019)

Zoro surpasses in attack potency even his captain (his sanzensekai is stronger than KKG). Cracker has nothing even remotely close to sanzensekai. His best attack destroyed several trees in candy forest. Also he was crushed by attack that was weaker than KKG,so in durability department he is even below Doflamingo. He is overrated. All he has is good biscuits and good haki control.

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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

Dunno said:


> It really isn't. Two-sword Zoro just fought a SN and someone *who might very well be on the same level of Shutenmaru* *and Jack* at the same time and he managed to take out the SN. You might believe that Zoro is weaker than Cracker, but to claim that him being stronger than Cracker would be retarded is, pardon my French, retarded.



That's one of the hardest reaches I've seen in a while. Literally nothing to indicate this.

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## Dunno (Jun 16, 2019)

MO said:


> very well be on the same level as jack or shutenmaru? tf!? Killer hasn't done anything to prove he is even close to that level for you to say he could very well be on that level.
> 
> it is retarded.Period. Zoro is lacking in feats,hype, and protrayal to say he is on the same level let alone above cracker.





Vivo Diez said:


> That's one of the hardest reaches I've seen in a while. Literally nothing to indicate this.


The samurai that Zoro fought at the same time as he fought Killer has a decent shot at being Denjiro, which would make him Shutenmaru's and Kawamatsu's peer. I wasn't referring to Killer, which should be apparent from the rest of the sentence.


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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2019)

Dunno said:


> The samurai that Zoro fought at the same time as he fought Killer has a decent shot at being *Denjiro*, which would make him Shutenmaru's and Kawamatsu's peer. I wasn't referring to Killer, which should be apparent from the rest of the sentence.



Looks nothing like Denjiro's silhouette.


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## Dunno (Jun 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Looks nothing like Denjiro's silhouette.


Well, he's in hiding. Wouldn't make sense to look like yourself while you're in hiding, unless you want to end up like Kawamatsu.


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## Amol (Jun 16, 2019)

Team Luffy wins. 
Is this Wano Luffy? 
Because that Luffy will have Future Sight from the start and that does not bode well for Katakuri. Nonetheless fight should be tough for both opponents given sheer stamina.  They shouldn't be in position to help anyone else. 
Cracker is stronger than DD given their respective performance against G4(and WCI G4 Luffy was stronger). 
The reason Team Luffy wins is Zoro. Oven was absolute fodder to Sanji. He blitzed Oven so badly that Oven didn't even get who the hell kicked him. So if Sanji is that above Oven then so should be Zoro. Daifuku is also around Oven level so that is comfortable win for Zoro. 
He beats his opponents and then helps out DD to beat Cracker. Luffy can win on his own but additional help won't be unwelcomed. 
So Team Luffy wins this with High difficulty.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> Even if that’s accurate, did he ever say the same thing or anything similar about Doflamingo’s haki? As I recall it he blocked an Armament kick from Doffy intended to kill Law just fine with his own Armament covered Leg.


Later Mingo blocked G4 attacks with his haki and did not suffer broken bones ,but Cracker was ragdolled by g4


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

Amol said:


> Team Luffy wins.
> Is this Wano Luffy?
> Because that Luffy will have Future Sight from the start and that does not bode well for Katakuri. Nonetheless fight should be tough for both opponents given sheer stamina.  They shouldn't be in position to help anyone else.
> Cracker is stronger than DD given their respective performance against G4(and WCI G4 Luffy was stronger).
> ...


Yeah Wano Luffy .
Doffy has an easier time against the vets ,he parasites one and lets them duke it out and beats the remaining one .
Cracker is not >Mingo though,that was post gk Doffy ,pre GK Mingo was trolling Luffy ,plus Cracker is a bad match up for Luffy ,someone like Doffy and Zoro beats Cracker much easier.


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## Amol (Jun 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Later Mingo blocked G4 attacks with his haki and did not suffer broken bones ,but Cracker was ragdolled by g4


This post is factually false. 
DD was the one who got ragdolled by G4 . Luffy literally played ping pong using DD himself as ball. All that is just 5 minutes. 
Cracker on the other hand fought G4 Luffy+Nami(weakness of his DF) on and off for 11 hours.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jun 16, 2019)

Amol said:


> This post is factually false.
> DD was the one who got ragdolled by G4 . Luffy literally played ping pong using DD himself as ball. All that is just 5 minutes.
> Cracker on the other hand fought G4 Luffy+Nami(weakness of his DF) on and off for 11 hours.


Cracker stood there clapping for 11 hours ,Doffy tanked G4 attacks and stood up ,the whole DR had to protect Luffy from Mingo,Cracker was one shot.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 16, 2019)

MO said:


> very well be on the same level as jack or shutenmaru? tf!? Killer hasn't done anything to prove he is even close to that level for you to say he could very well be on that level.
> 
> it is retarded.Period. Zoro is lacking in feats,hype, and protrayal to say he is on the same level let alone above cracker.


 Kyoshiro > Cracker


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## MO (Jun 16, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Kyoshiro > Cracker


Not in the manga called one piece.


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## Beast (Jun 17, 2019)

Kata>~ luffy> Cracker> DD>~ Zoro> Daifuku>~ Ovan.

Giving Zoro the benefit of the doubt because of Raid suit Sanji.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 17, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Kata>~ luffy> Cracker> DD>~ Zoro> Daifuku>~ Ovan.
> 
> Giving Zoro the benefit of the doubt because of Raid suit Sanji.



Didn't base Sanji establish his superiority over Oven on WCI? RS Sanji would murder that dude.


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## Beast (Jun 17, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> Didn't base Sanji establish his superiority over Oven on WCI? RS Sanji would murder that dude.


I was referring to DD>~ Zoro, not oven and Daifuku, who Zoro should be comfortably above 1v1. End of Wano, I expect Zoro to be comfortably above DD even though he doesn’t have the feats right now.


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## Gohara (Jun 18, 2019)

The big mam pirates wins that match up.  Luffy and Doflamingo should be around the same league as Lord Katakuri and Lord Cracker however combined Lord Oven and Lord Daifuku should be superior to Zoro excluding wano country power ups.


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## Santoryu (Jun 18, 2019)

Don't see how zoro doesn't solo given the mountain distorting slices coupled with his preemptive haki which renders any incoming attacking null through high-stratospheric level movements.

Zoro solos mid diff

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## AmitDS (Jun 23, 2019)

All this Zoro wanking. Zoro doesn't have the same advanced armament Luffy is learning atm. Idk how people can seriously think that Zoro's armament is better than Luffy's. If that were the case it would have been pointed out that Zoro making his blade black with armament is the same thing as channeling haki from around one's body through the fists as Kuzan, Rayleigh etc. did. 

Furthermore he is not on the level of any commander. Zoro would lose to Oven and Daifuku, Luffy and Katakuri would probably stalemate while Cracker beats Doflamingo.

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## Guan Yu (Jun 23, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> All this Zoro wanking. Zoro doesn't have the same advanced armament Luffy is learning atm. Idk how people can seriously think that Zoro's armament is better than Luffy's. If that were the case it would have been pointed out that Zoro making his blade black with armament is the same thing as channeling haki from around one's body through the fists as Kuzan, Rayleigh etc. did.
> 
> Furthermore he is not on the level of any commander. Zoro would lose to Oven and Daifuku, Luffy and Katakuri would probably stalemate while Cracker beats Doflamingo.


Zoro already use the "advanced" armament haki ever since Alabasta


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## El Hermano (Jun 23, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> If they can please go ahead and provide evidence.
> 
> If he reshapes them they will have openings for other incoming attack or will get entangled in the strings, not to mention they can be turned into strings by Doflas awakening.



They're easily manipulated by Cracker and he could shapeshift them and create more than Doffy could handle to slice the strings. Also, Cracker has proven to be strong enough to actually cut through G4 Luffy's arm with ease and his CoA is most likely, stronger than Doffy's(Doffy was never capable of hurting G4 Luffy and his white, Haki coated strings couldn't finish off base Luffy with barely any Haki left). There's no reason he shouldn't be able to cut through Doffy's strings. Stop acting as if they're indestructible. Pretty much everyone on Kata's team could easily deal with them.

Also, burden of proof lies on you. You claim he could turn the powers of another DF into strings despite never showing the ability to do so.



Dunno said:


> The samurai that Zoro fought at the same time as he fought Killer has a decent shot at being Denjiro, which would make him Shutenmaru's and Kawamatsu's peer. I wasn't referring to Killer, which should be apparent from the rest of the sentence.



And you can't prove that's the case as of yet. He never proved capable of actually defeating him, anyway.
As of now, it's not really a valid argument.

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## AmitDS (Jun 23, 2019)

Guan Yu said:


> Zoro already use the "advanced" armament haki ever since Alabasta




*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*



No he didn't. That's not advanced armament where he's talking his haki and channeling it into his fist/sword and then outwards into Mr. 1. That's not even confirmed to be any Haki based technique.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

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## Tenma (Jun 24, 2019)

Luffy should be decisively stronger than Katakuri at this point, which gives his team the edge


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## Mad Monk (Jun 24, 2019)

SHs Mingo team take this.


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## Dunno (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> And you can't prove that's the case as of yet. He never proved capable of actually defeating him, anyway.
> As of now, it's not really a valid argument.


I don't need to prove that that is the case. The argument I was arguing against was that it was retarded to state that Zoro was stronger than Cracker. For that to be true, you need to be certain that Zoro isn't stronger than Cracker, which means that you need to prove that Gyukimaru isn't YC level or that Zoro can't beat him. What I argue is that there's a very real possibility that Zoro is stronger than Cracker, not that I'm certain that he is.


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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

Dunno said:


> I don't need to prove that that is the case. The argument I was arguing against was that it was retarded to state that Zoro was stronger than Cracker. For that to be true, you need to be certain that Zoro isn't stronger than Cracker, which means that you need to prove that Gyukimaru isn't YC level or that Zoro can't beat him. What I argue is that there's a very real possibility that Zoro is stronger than Cracker, not that I'm certain that he is.


 Zoro never defeated someone on his level nor really anywhere near it. It is kinda retarded to state that since you can't really prove that he is. In the meanwhile he's yet to fight and beat anyone impressive enough to put him on that level, hence, he's not on that level yet.

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## barreltheif (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Zoro never defeated someone on his level nor really anywhere near it. It is kinda retarded to state that since you can't really prove that he is. In the meanwhile he's yet to fight and beat anyone impressive enough to put him on that level, hence, he's not on that level yet.



Cracker never defeated someone on Zoro's level. The only person he's beaten at all was a weakened Urouge in the past, off panel.

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## Gianfi (Jun 24, 2019)

Team Charlotte wins. Cracker beats Donflaming high diif. Oven and Daifuku individually are around Sanji's level, so 2vs1 against Zoro they win high diff as well. Luffy vs Kata would be extreme diff either way, but it doesn't matter, Luffy will be finishedby the other three brothers even if he defeats kata


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Zoro never defeated someone on his level nor really anywhere near it. It is kinda retarded to state that since you can't really prove that he is. In the meanwhile he's yet to fight and beat anyone impressive enough to put him on that level, hence, he's not on that level yet.


 Kyoshiro is stronger than Jack

Queen actually listens to him. Compare that to how Queen treats Jack.

Kyoshiro is excited to fight Oden’s retainers (which includes Shutenmaru).

We have evidence that Kyoshiro is > YC3 and no evidence otherwise.

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## Steven (Jun 24, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Cracker never defeated someone on Zoro's level. The only person he's beaten at all was a weakened Urouge in the past, off panel.


Cracker almost cut G4´s arm off

Thats better than Zorros feats


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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Kyoshiro is stronger than Jack
> 
> Queen actually listens to him. Compare that to how Queen treats Jack.
> 
> ...


I don't recall Queen shriveling in fear in front of Kyoshiro. Queen also thought he could take on a Yonko who casually slammed him into unconsciousness in mere moments.
And where did Zoro exactly do anything noteable to Kyoshiro besides being casually intercepted by him and blocking his strikes? Zoro was out of breath and overwhelmed by him while Kyoshiro was smirking and didn't even break a sweat. If anything, Kyoshiro is obviously above current Zoro.



barreltheif said:


> Cracker never defeated someone on Zoro's level. The only person he's beaten at all was a weakened Urouge in the past, off panel.


Cracker's Biscuit soldier overpowered any version of Luffy below G4. G4 Luffy was casually tagged and cut by Cracker. A tired G4 Luffy running on an empty tank ragdolled Doffy and pretty much brushed off all of his attacks.

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## barreltheif (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Cracker's Biscuit soldier overpowered any version of Luffy below G4. G4 Luffy was casually tagged and cut by Cracker.



Cracker's Biscuit soldiers never overpowered Luffy. You're thinking of the real Cracker, inside his armor. Luffy was never "casually tagged and cut". Cracker landed a sneak attack.

Anyway, you missed the point. The mere fact that Zoro hasn't beaten an opponent as strong as Cracker doesn't mean that he would lose to Cracker, just like the fact that Cracker hasn't beaten an opponent as strong as Zoro doesn't mean that Cracker would lose to Zoro.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> I don't recall Queen shriveling in fear in front of Kyoshiro


 not sure what this has to do with what I said



Skinny Phallus said:


> Queen also thought he could take on a Yonko who casually slammed him into unconsciousness in mere moments.


 queen isn’t Kyoshiro. And besides, with Queen, we have evidence against his confidence. We have nothing like that with Kyoshiro. Occam’s razor suggests we should believe him.



Skinny Phallus said:


> And where did Zoro exactly do anything noteable to Kyoshiro besides being casually intercepted by him and blocking his strikes? Zoro was out of breath and overwhelmed by him while Kyoshiro was smirking and didn't even break a sweat. If anything, Kyoshiro is obviously above current Zoro.


 2 sword Zoro is being hyped because he is able to clash with him. Kyoshiro > 2 sword Zoro of course.

But this is 2 sword Zoro. It isn’t a stretch to say that they would be relatively even once Zoro gets 3 swords


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## barreltheif (Jun 24, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Cracker almost cut G4´s arm off
> Thats better than Zorros feats



This is irrelevant to what we were discussing. You can defend the position that Cracker > Zoro if you want, based on feats. I was simply saying that the fact that Zoro hasn't beaten anyone as strong as Cracker doesn't mean that Cracker is stronger than him.

Sneak attacking and cutting Luffy's arm is not a terrible impressive feat though. If Zoro had a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, Luffy would probably lose the arm.

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## xenos5 (Jun 24, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Cracker never defeated someone on Zoro's level. The only person he's beaten at all was a weakened Urouge in the past, off panel.



G4 Luffy would’ve been beaten by Cracker without Nami’s Help. Zoro hasn’t shown he has what it takes to beat even Doflamingo, without help.


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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> not sure what this has to do with what I said
> 
> queen isn’t Kyoshiro. And besides, with Queen, we have evidence against his confidence. We have nothing like that with Kyoshiro. Occam’s razor suggests we should believe him.
> 
> ...



Because you compared it to Jack and Queen. While Jack was obviously scared of Queen and King, I don't recall Kyoshiro and Queen have a similar interaction, where Queen was terrified of him like Jack was of Queen.

It's up to you to prove that, of course, you can't. Zoro was out of breath while Kyoshiro was casually blocking his attacks and smirking. Zoro's done nothing to indicate that he would be able to tango with him once he gets a third sword. Assuming that he would suddenly be even with him in terms of stats once he gets a third sword is an assumption. There's an obvious gap a third word won't necessarily be enough to fill. If Kyoshiro is truly an equal to the likes of Shutenmaru(I assume he is), Zoro would need far more than a third sword to defeat him.




barreltheif said:


> Cracker's Biscuit soldiers never overpowered Luffy. You're thinking of the real Cracker, inside his armor. Luffy was never "casually tagged and cut". Cracker landed a sneak attack.
> 
> Anyway, you missed the point. The mere fact that Zoro hasn't beaten an opponent as strong as Cracker doesn't mean that he would lose to Cracker, just like the fact that Cracker hasn't beaten an opponent as strong as Zoro doesn't mean that Cracker would lose to Zoro.



Yes, they did. Luffy couldn't break through his Haki with Gears 2&3, he couldn't even really push Cracker back even when it wasn't apparent that he wasn't using CoA. He was sent flying and his CoA in Gears 2&3 wasn't enough. He also called Cracker's CoA "too hard".

Cracker was still fast and strong enough to slice through G4 Luffy's punch mid-motion.

I'm not missing the point, you're just not making a valid one.

 Cracker being able to hold back Luffy and force him to go on a completely defensive strategy since he couldn't beat him head on even with G4(and Nami's help), is already better than any feat Zoro's had so far. Cracker ended up losing because he was an impatient moron who underestimated Luffy. Luffy also had help from Nami, whose abilities were a direct counter to Cracker's biscuit warriors.

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## Corax (Jun 24, 2019)

Zoro is even more strength oriented and has better attack potency than Luffy,much like his teacher Mihawk (who uses strong 2 handed style). So Cracker (who is a pure brawler) won't be a problem for him . The only thing that divides Zoro and Luffy for now is that Luffy has hax (future sight).


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## TheWiggian (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> They're easily manipulated by Cracker and he could shapeshift them and create more than Doffy could handle to slice the strings. Also, Cracker has proven to be strong enough to actually cut through G4 Luffy's arm with ease and his CoA is most likely, stronger than Doffy's(Doffy was never capable of hurting G4 Luffy and his white, Haki coated strings couldn't finish off base Luffy with barely any Haki left). There's no reason he shouldn't be able to cut through Doffy's strings. Stop acting as if they're indestructible. Pretty much everyone on Kata's team could easily deal with them.
> 
> Also, burden of proof lies on you. You claim he could turn the powers of another DF into strings despite never showing the ability to do so.



So as long as he's shifting them they're vulnerable just as Cracker's real body.

Doffy can control dozens of people, far more than Cracker can create biscuit soldiers and on top of that Doffy can create multiple Black Knights that are around as powerful as G2/3 Luffy so basically like a biscuit soldier.

Cracker's main body was able to cut throught Luffy's G4 not his biscuit soldiers.

Provide proof of Cracker being able to cut throught Doffy's strings or gtfo. Noone at Dressrosa could cut throught Doffy's strings and there was a person that is on the level of Cracker's leader.

Doffy was shown to turn buildings into strings that could've been made of seastone, but i can concede that point since you can't really depict rhe buildings in the awakening panels. Not like it's really needed against Cracker in the first place. Doffy's parasite can control armies and multiple Black Knights can run around wild at the same time.

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## Steven (Jun 24, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> This is irrelevant to what we were discussing. You can defend the position that Cracker > Zoro if you want, based on feats. I was simply saying that the fact that Zoro hasn't beaten anyone as strong as Cracker doesn't mean that Cracker is stronger than him.
> 
> Sneak attacking and cutting Luffy's arm is not a terrible impressive feat though. If Zoro had a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, Luffy would probably lose the arm.


Feats>No feats

Lol Sneackattack...Ruffy was full conzenträtet on the battle.And no,Zorro would not be able to cut Ruffys arm off.His CoA is just to weak.

Outstreched or not makes 0 different.CoA is still the same

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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> So as long as he's shifting them they're vulnerable just as Cracker's real body.
> 
> Doffy can control dozens of people, far more than Cracker can create biscuit soldiers and on top of that Doffy can create multiple Black Knights that are around as powerful as G2/3 Luffy so basically like a biscuit soldier.
> 
> ...



-Cracker casually created biscuit soldiers for hours on end. He could manipulate their shape as he wishes, he could also create more than biscuit soldiers with his ability. He could make the strings phase through them. One biscuit soldier completely overpowered G2/G3 Luffy. They arguably dealt with him better than Doflamingo did.

-Yes, still more capable than Doflamingo. Doffy got ragdolled by G4 Luffy and struggled to keep up with him even from a distance. Cracker pretty much casually tagged Luffy's arm mid-air and sliced through it with no effort.

-His Haki is superior, that much is obvious. Doflamingo's strings were ripped through by G4 Luffy and were also tanked by him. Doflamingo couldn't finish of a dying Luffy with barely any Haki left using one of his strongest forms of strings imbued with Haki. Cracker's attack on the other hand, was potent enough to slice through G4 Luffy.

-The entire birdcage scenario was pure PIS. You either concede that those strings were a unique type that no one can actually cut through but Doffy can't use it directly as an offensive tool or that it was pure PIS. Either way, it's irrelevant. 
Doflamingo's strongest offensive strings were torn apart by G4 Luffy. And Doflamingo being busy parasiting an army that could be dismantled at any given moment makes him an easy target for someone like Katakuri. And so far, as I said - Cracker was capable of creating countless of Biscuit soldiers over an entire night with little effort. Assuming Doflamingo could parasite all of them is pretty much NLF.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Because you compared it to Jack and Queen. While Jack was obviously scared of Queen and King, I don't recall Kyoshiro and Queen have a similar interaction, where Queen was terrified of him like Jack was of Queen.


 you missed the point. Queen trash talked Jack. Queen listens to Kyoshiro. 



Skinny Phallus said:


> It's up to you to prove that, of course, you can't. Zoro was out of breath while Kyoshiro was casually blocking his attacks and smirking. Zoro's done nothing to indicate that he would be able to tango with him once he gets a third sword. Assuming that he would suddenly be even with him in terms of stats once he gets a third sword is an assumption. There's an obvious gap a third word won't necessarily be enough to fill. If Kyoshiro is truly an equal to the likes of Shutenmaru(I assume he is), Zoro would need far more than a third sword to defeat him.


 Zoro is the person who one shot somebody hisn2 sword self is even with. And that’s even with a blade that isn’t a sword.


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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> you missed the point. Queen trash talked Jack. Queen listens to Kyoshiro.


Still doesn't say much. 



> Zoro is the person who one shot *somebody hisn2* sword self is even with. And that’s even with a blade that isn’t a sword.


???


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## sanji's left eye (Jun 24, 2019)

Wow it's funny when you go into a thread just knowing everyone will feel one way, but you end up being completely wrong.

This goes to the Charlotte family for what I assumed were obvious reasons:

1. Luffy had a virtual draw with Katakuri. He can beat him but he will be virtually useless after. Certainly G4 will be used which means he will have no Haki after that and will barely be able to move.

2. Cracker is stronger than DD. It's not debatable. BM knew he beat DD so she sent someone stronger. And it showed. Luffy was forced to use G4 virtually instantly against Cracker while it took a while for G4 to come out against DD. A weaker version of Luffy from the previous arc used G4 and smacked DD across a country. A stronger Luffy 2 arcs later used Boundman against Cracker and the fight was virtually equal. So Cracker beats DD handily.

3. One biscuit soldier from Cracker defeated G2/G3 Luffy. It took G4 to beat one biscuit soldier. At this point, Zoro has not shown that he is as strong as Boundman from the beginning of WCI and a definite argument can be made that G2/G3 Luffy at the beginning of WCI is stronger than Zoro at least based on what we have seen (I know this won't be the case for long). Until we see what Zoro can do, I have no reason to believe that a couple of biscuit soldiers cannot defeat Zoro.

4. This would leave Oven and Daifuku free to help out Katakuri. We saw before how outside interference impeded Luffy. Oven and Daifuku are on another level.

So in summation, Katakuri, Oven, and Daifuku > Luffy. And Cracker > Zoro (based on what we have seen) and DD.

At the end of this arc, this is a little one-sided in the other direction. Luffy will be comfortably above Katakuri, Zoro will be comfortably above Cracker, and DD can hold out long enough against Oven and Daifuku for back up to arrive.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Still doesn't say much.
> 
> 
> ???


 it says enough in conjunction with Kyoshiro’s confidence against the retainers.

There’s 2 pieces of evidence on him being > Jack. 0 on the other side. Any reasonable person would put him > Jack

I meant 2 sword Zoro


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Canon truth: Luffy > Katakuri > Zoro > Cracker > Doflamingo > Daifuku + Oven


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## Steven (Jun 24, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Canon truth: Luffy > Katakuri > *Zoro > Cracker* > Doflamingo > Daifuku + Oven


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## El Hermano (Jun 24, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> it says enough in conjunction with Kyoshiro’s confidence against the retainers.
> 
> There’s 2 pieces of evidence on him being > Jack. 0 on the other side. Any reasonable person would put him > Jack
> 
> I meant 2 sword Zoro


Confidence doesn't mean much when it comes to power balance in OP. It's been proven times and times again.

Yes, he oneshotted Killer after he robbed him of his weapon, practically nerfing his fighting capabilities. Also, nothing to indicate they're equal when Zoro uses 2 swords. Just the moment Zoro was about to start fighting seriously, he got hit after being distracted, then robbed Killer of his weapon and proceeded to strike.

Still, a 3rd sword alone is not enough to fill the obvious, pretty big gap between Kyoshiro and Zoro. Especially if you think Kyoshiro is YC level. Again, Zoro's never done anything as impressive as injuring a fighter on the same level as G4 Luffy so casually nor even a fighter who's capable of ragdolling G2&3 Luffy.


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## sanji's left eye (Jun 24, 2019)

It's incredible how people will just give Zoro the benefit of the doubt. It's actually kind of insane. Zoro fought anyone on Cracker's level? Nope? That's okay we will still say he is stronger than Cracker. Zoro has not shown he is stronger than beginning of WCI Boundman. Once you accept that, it's obvious the outcome of this battle.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Jun 24, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Might wanna reread chapter 939. Hyo's spiel is almost the same as Koshiro's about "cutting steel but not cutting paper" with context referring to the advanced barrier haki that Rayleigh and Hyo used.

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## AmitDS (Jun 24, 2019)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Might wanna reread chapter 939. Hyo's spiel is almost the same as Koshiro's about "cutting steel but not cutting paper" with context referring to the advanced barrier haki that Rayleigh and Hyo used.



It's not confirmed to be the same thing so people claiming that it is and Zoro already had advanced armament and had better armament than Luffy are jumping the gun. Zoro who didn't even know how to use armament being able to accidentally use an advanced version that people are training and still failing to use  is iffy and the whole hearing everything around him is not mentioned anywhere in the explanation for Luffy's training in using advanced armament.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Zoro casually cut steel after Alabasta? If so then was he using advanced armament casually before he learned armament? 

And on topic what makes people here believe that Zoro can use that and it would work on Cracker's biscuits and beat him in a fight? There is nothing showing that current Zoro can cut through Cracker's biscuits with the feats he has even against Pica.

Luffy struggled against Cracker but Zoro would beat him?


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Jun 24, 2019)

AmitDS said:


> It's not confirmed to be the same thing so people claiming that it is and Zoro already had advanced armament and had better armament than Luffy are jumping the gun. Zoro who didn't even know how to use armament being able to accidentally use an advanced version that people are training and still failing to use  is iffy and the whole hearing everything around him is not mentioned anywhere in the explanation for Luffy's training in using advanced armament.
> Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Zoro casually cut steel after Alabasta? If so then was he using advanced armament casually before he learned armament?



So Oda just happened to use the same example from two swordsmen with steel in particular...and both had mention of a "gouken" or mighty blade but there's no connection? There's probably a retcon in there in regards to the "breath", but Zoro's also shown the ability to imbue air slashes with Haki..and I think people are getting too hung up on LUFFY calling it Advanced when it seems to be more common in Wano.




(Just for fun, the three times the term "gouken" has been connected to Zoro, Ryuma, and Hyogoro - )



> And on topic what makes people here believe that Zoro can use that and it would work on Cracker's biscuits and beat him in a fight? There is nothing showing that current Zoro can cut through Cracker's biscuits with the feats he has even against Pica.
> 
> Luffy struggled against Cracker but Zoro would beat him?



It's easier to cut a mountain in half than to crush it with your fists, especially in One Piece. Also, A > B, B > C, so A > C doesn't always work out in One Piece. Match ups are a thing.

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## AmitDS (Jun 24, 2019)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> So Oda just happened to use the same example from two swordsmen with steel in particular...and both had mention of a "gouken" or mighty blade but there's no connection? There's probably a retcon in there in regards to the "breath", but Zoro's also shown the ability to imbue air slashes with Haki..and I think people are getting too hung up on LUFFY calling it Advanced when it seems to be more common in Wano.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Until it is confirmed that it is the same power and that the retcon about him hearing everything happened it is not a fact. Fans outright saying that Zoro has advanced haki and can use it presently against cracker is headcanon. 

Furthermore in the face of such a gap in power type advantage (which isn't a factor here really) doesn't mean much. Cracker was fighting off gear 4th luffy reacting to him and had armament  haki arguably stronger than his. He was sent to defeat luffy with Big Mom knowing he was the one who beat DD. The fact that people think it is obvious that Zoro at present could actually beat him because he uses cutting as opposed to Luffy 's punching, is laughable. And his biscuit soldiers aren't even his only weapon.


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## barreltheif (Jun 24, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Yes, they did. Luffy couldn't break through his Haki with Gears 2&3, he couldn't even really push Cracker back even when it wasn't apparent that he wasn't using CoA. He was sent flying and his CoA in Gears 2&3 wasn't enough. He also called Cracker's CoA "too hard".



You're misremembering. None of this was done by biscuit soldiers. That was the real Cracker, in his armor.




> Cracker was still fast and strong enough to slice through G4 Luffy's punch mid-motion.



Cutting Luffy's outstretched arm with a free hit is not impressive.




> I'm not missing the point, you're just not making a valid one.
> Cracker being able to hold back Luffy and force him to go on a completely defensive strategy since he couldn't beat him head on even with G4(and Nami's help), is already better than any feat Zoro's had so far. Cracker ended up losing because he was an impatient moron who underestimated Luffy. Luffy also had help from Nami, whose abilities were a direct counter to Cracker's biscuit warriors.



You're changing the subject. None of this is relevant to my post. You brought up the fact that Zoro hasn't been shown defeating anyone strong as Cracker. This is not evidence that Cracker would beat Zoro, because (1) lots of people stronger than Cracker haven't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Cracker, and (2) Cracker hasn't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Zoro.




xenos5 said:


> G4 Luffy would’ve been beaten by Cracker without Nami’s Help. Zoro hasn’t shown he has what it takes to beat even Doflamingo, without help.



I agree with all of this.​


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## LolonoisZolo (Jun 24, 2019)

I believe Luffy, Zoro and Doflamingo would mid diff at worst.
Luffy would easily hold Katakuri while Zoro and Doffy destory the 3 weaker ones; Cracker's biscuits would be a nuisance to them more than anything thanks to parasite and even if Daifuku and Oven resist it (which is highly unlikely) they would get murked by a bloodthirsty Zoro. After dealing with the three weak ones, Zoro and Doffy would turn to Katakuri who barely manages to keep up with Luffy and they destroy him.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 24, 2019)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> So Oda just happened to use the same example from two swordsmen with steel in particular...and both had mention of a "gouken" or mighty blade but there's no connection? There's probably a retcon in there in regards to the "breath", but Zoro's also shown the ability to imbue air slashes with Haki..and I think people are getting too hung up on LUFFY calling it Advanced when it seems to be more common in Wano.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 where do you get the raws?


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## Corax (Jun 25, 2019)

sanji's left eye said:


> It's incredible how people will just give Zoro the benefit of the doubt. It's actually kind of insane. Zoro fought anyone on Cracker's level? Nope? That's okay we will still say he is stronger than Cracker. Zoro has not shown he is stronger than beginning of WCI Boundman. Once you accept that, it's obvious the outcome of this battle.


It is just common sense. Cracker was defeated by attack that was much weaker than KKG and sanzensekai that destroyed mountain Pica. It is like to say that someone who can turn and island into dust can't beat another brawler type character who was defeated by a weaker attack because we have never seen him fighting opponents of his "lvl".


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Jun 25, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> where do you get the raws?



I found those around the time 939 came out. Someone shared them in the Zoro FC on OJ. The normal raws can be found just by googling them lol

Reactions: Like 3


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 25, 2019)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> I found those around the time 939 came out. Someone shared them in the Zoro FC on OJ. The normal raws can be found just by googling them lol


 I always google them and fail


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## sanji's left eye (Jun 25, 2019)

Corax said:


> It is just common sense. Cracker was defeated by attack that was much weaker than KKG and sanzensekai that destroyed mountain Pica. It is like to say that someone who can turn and island into dust can't beat another brawler type character who was defeated by a weaker attack because we have never seen him fighting opponents of his "lvl".


It's the battledome. When the fuck did people just start assigning power levels and making up feats when that shit was not shown? It is downright ridiculous to give Zoro power that you have never seen him possess. Zoro has shown nothing, and I mean nothing, that puts him on the level of Cracker. He has shown nothing that puts him on the level of beginning of WCI Boundman. Pica is infinitely below Cracker. I do not give a shit about what he did to Pica. Means next to nothing against Cracker. And please don't make shit up about Tankman's attack being weaker than Zoro's ougi against Pica. It one shot a YC3. Zoro has not shown his attack can one shot a YC3 so please do not assign feats that he did not show. 

It's hilarious circular reasoning with you people. Zoro fights someone and the guy holds his own so you say the guy is strong. Then you use the same instance to hype Zoro up, which is completely insane because the whole reason you think the guy is strong in the first place is because he is fighting Zoro. I'm impressed with the dickriding but until Zoro shows that he is on that level, this thread has an obvious outcome, which is Zoro being killed by 2 biscuit soldiers.


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## Kurohige (Jun 25, 2019)

Luffy >/= Katakuri
Zoro < Cracker
Doffy > Oven&Daifuku

or

Luffy >/= Katakuri
Zoro < Oven&Daifuku
Doffy =/< Cracker

If Luffy still has energy left after beating Katakuri Cracker most likely still beat him.


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## El Hermano (Jun 25, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> You're misremembering. None of this was done by biscuit soldiers. That was the real Cracker, in his armor.




Yes, it's still was done by Cracker's biscuit soldier, Luffy couldn't handle the s. He was inside it, manipulating it as usual. Do I really have to post scans of it?



Key words: "It took everything you had to defeat a 'guy'...Who was nothing more than one of the infinite amount of biscuits I have at my beck and call..."
Meaning, it was just another biscuit soldier, he just hid in it and referred to it as his armor.



> Cutting Luffy's outstretched arm with a free hit is not impressive.


He still tagged it mid-air, just because it was out-stretched doesn't make it less impressive. Neither Doflamingo nor Zoro have shown the ability to cut through a G4 Luffy level opponent. So, my point still stands.




> You're changing the subject. None of this is relevant to my post. You brought up the fact that Zoro hasn't been shown defeating anyone strong as Cracker. This is not evidence that Cracker would beat Zoro, because (1) lots of people stronger than Cracker haven't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Cracker, and (2) Cracker hasn't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Zoro.



Yes, it is relevant. Zoro's not an Admiral or a Yonko/YC. Hence, he doesn't get any of the scaling. He's a character from the main cast that still grows every arc he's in. Cracker gets the YC scaling and he also shown the ability to manhandle all of Luffy's gears. He's proven to be strong enough to deal with a character as strong as Luffy. He's proven to be worthy of the scaling he's gotten. Zoro on the other hand, never dealt with an opponent as strong as G4 Luffy, never showed the ability to actually be capable of even injuring an opponent on that level and since he's not a Yonko/Admiral/YC/One of the many legendary pirates in the OPverse, he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.​
Claiming that some of the strongest characters that gave us enough reasons to believe they're the strongest get the benefit of the doubt, hence, Zoro's gotta get it, too, is a fallacy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Jun 25, 2019)

sanji's left eye said:


> It's the battledome. When the fuck did people just start assigning power levels and making up feats when that shit was not shown? It is downright ridiculous to give Zoro power that you have never seen him possess. Zoro has shown nothing, and I mean nothing, that puts him on the level of Cracker. He has shown nothing that puts him on the level of beginning of WCI Boundman. Pica is infinitely below Cracker. I do not give a shit about what he did to Pica. Means next to nothing against Cracker. And please don't make shit up about Tankman's attack being weaker than Zoro's ougi against Pica. It one shot a YC3. Zoro has not shown his attack can one shot a YC3 so please do not assign feats that he did not show.
> 
> It's hilarious circular reasoning with you people. Zoro fights someone and the guy holds his own so you say the guy is strong. Then you use the same instance to hype Zoro up, which is completely insane because the whole reason you think the guy is strong in the first place is because he is fighting Zoro. I'm impressed with the dickriding but until Zoro shows that he is on that level, this thread has an obvious outcome, which is Zoro being killed by 2 biscuit soldiers.


It is all irrelevant. Cracker's durability is below Tankman canonball DC. His soldier durabitily is even below basic G4 attack. KKG has much greater DC than Tankman canonball,and much much greater DC than G4 basic smash. Zoro's sanzensekai is in KKG tier DC,even a bit stronger. You are seriously downplaying Zoro,if you think that he can't even match G4 basic attacks. He can casually and Cracker and his soldiers won't be a problem for him at all by feats.


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## xenos5 (Jun 25, 2019)

Corax said:


> It is all irrelevant. Cracker's durability is below Tankman canonball DC. His soldier durabitily is even below basic G4 attack. KKG has much greater DC than Tankman canonball,and much much greater DC than G4 basic smash. *Zoro's sanzensekai is in KKG tier DC,even a bit stronger.* You are seriously downplaying Zoro,if you think that he can't even match G4 basic attacks. He can casually and Cracker and his soldiers won't be a problem for him at all by feats.



You’re wanking Zoro. You have no proof he can match Kong Gun let alone a Cannonball or KKG. Pica is <<<<< Doflamingo. That attack that worked on Pica would easily be blocked by Doflamingo with awakening and Dressrosa Luffy used a simple headbutt in G4 to force through Doffy’s awakening.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 25, 2019)

sanji's left eye said:


> It's hilarious circular reasoning with you people. Zoro fights someone and the guy holds his own so you say the guy is strong. Then you use the same instance to hype Zoro up, which is completely insane because the whole reason you think the guy is strong in the first place is because he is fighting Zoro. I'm impressed with the dickriding but until Zoro shows that he is on that level, this thread has an obvious outcome, which is Zoro being killed by 2 biscuit soldiers


 this is only true if you ignore everything i have said. 

Nothing I have said about Kyoshiro hinges in the fact that he's fighting Zoro.


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## Corax (Jun 25, 2019)

xenos5 said:


> You’re wanking Zoro. You have no proof he can match Kong Gun let alone a Cannonball or KKG. Pica is <<<<< Doflamingo. That attack that worked on Pica would easily be blocked by Doflamingo with awakening and Dressrosa Luffy used a simple headbutt in G4 to force through Doffy’s awakening.


Pica has nothing to do here. By amount of destroyed rocks this attack is slightly stronger than KKG. He cut into 20 pieces 1300 meters  (4200 feets) tall golem, KKG destroyed underground cave celling and flipped around 4-5 city block worth of stone. It is even possible to convert both to megatons of TNT and compare.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 25, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> -Cracker casually created biscuit soldiers for hours on end. He could manipulate their shape as he wishes, he could also create more than biscuit soldiers with his ability. He could make the strings phase through them. One biscuit soldier completely overpowered G2/G3 Luffy. They arguably dealt with him better than Doflamingo did.



And while he manipulated their shape Luffy ate them lol. Not a great argument. If he shapeshifts them, they're weak prey.



Skinny Phallus said:


> -Yes, still more capable than Doflamingo. Doffy got ragdolled by G4 Luffy and struggled to keep up with him even from a distance. Cracker pretty much casually tagged Luffy's arm mid-air and sliced through it with no effort.



Your argument? Biscuit soldiers are still not as powerful as Cracker's main body lol, only more durable



Skinny Phallus said:


> -His Haki is superior, that much is obvious. Doflamingo's strings were ripped through by G4 Luffy and were also tanked by him. Doflamingo couldn't finish of a dying Luffy with barely any Haki left using one of his strongest forms of strings imbued with Haki. Cracker's attack on the other hand, was potent enough to slice through G4 Luffy.



Still doesn't transfer to Cracker being able to slice through Doffy's strings.



Skinny Phallus said:


> -The entire birdcage scenario was pure PIS. You either concede that those strings were a unique type that no one can actually cut through but Doffy can't use it directly as an offensive tool or that it was pure PIS. Either way, it's irrelevant.
> Doflamingo's strongest offensive strings were torn apart by G4 Luffy. And Doflamingo being busy parasiting an army that could be dismantled at any given moment makes him an easy target for someone like Katakuri. And so far, as I said - Cracker was capable of creating countless of Biscuit soldiers over an entire night with little effort. Assuming Doflamingo could parasite all of them is pretty much NLF.



I don't concede shit lol. You said Cracker can break/cut through Doffy's strings and iam still waiting for you to prove it.

Doffy's God Thread was barely overpowered by KKG, an attack that Cracker didn't even face head on. He was defeated by being bounced through his own biscuit soldiers lol

The more biscuit soldiers Cracker creates the bigger Doffy's parasite army with Black Knights will be lol.
You still haven't proven how the soldiers get out of parasite except shapeshifting which will leave them vulnerable for awakening attacks and Black Knights assaulting them.


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## El Hermano (Jun 25, 2019)

TheWiggian said:


> And while he manipulated their shape Luffy ate them lol. Not a great argument. If he shapeshifts them, they're weak prey.


Making the string phase through them for a moment isn't going to make them "weak prey". Luffy was only able to eat them after Nami basically bathe them with rain.



> Your argument? Biscuit soldiers are still not as powerful as Cracker's main body lol, only more durable


My argument is that Cracker is actually more than capable of putting down Doflamingo, seeing as he handled an opponent that ragdolled Doflamingo much better at his strongest form.



> Still doesn't transfer to Cracker being able to slice through Doffy's strings.


Yes, yes it does. Luffy's G4 and armament were able to efortlessly tank and rip through Doflamingo's strings, Cracker's COA was capable of slicing through an even more capable, healthier version of that G4 Luffy.



> I don't concede shit lol. You said Cracker can break/cut through Doffy's strings and iam still waiting for you to prove it.
> 
> Doffy's God Thread was barely overpowered by KKG, an attack that Cracker didn't even face head on. He was defeated by being bounced through his own biscuit soldiers lol
> 
> ...


So, you're going to use a feat that's obviously PIS/irrelevant for Doflamingo in a fight(since it was never used in a fight, despite being supposedly "invincible" or his strongest form of strings)to back up your argument? 

"Barely overpowered" as in literally ripped through them and sent Doflamingo crashing into the ground so hard from a long distance mid-air, it literally flipped over an entire town and sent him to the bottom of the island. We readin' the same manga?

Prove that another user's DF ability could actually turn into strings via awakening. If that's the case, Katakuri turns all of Doffy's BKs and stirngs into Mochi and drowns him in it.

Also, did Doflamingo's Black Knights ever shown to be capable of Parasiting? From what I recall, Doflamingo has to manipulate his clones, too. As of now, Cracker has shown the ability to produce more soldiers than Doflamingo has shown the ability to manipulate. Assuming he could manipulate countless of soldiers is NLF.
You're also assuming he could easily do that, despite never using that said ability in the fight against Luffy, except for when Luffy was barely mobile and practically half dead with no haki at all. I wonder why.

You're going with the assumption they're going to get easily tagged by it. With Katakuri around, Parasiting is going to be a very tough job for Doflamingo. Katakuri is very calculating and serious, a smarter, better fighter than Doflamingo, that's for sure. Doflamingo will lose his head very fast. Katakuri has a pretty big speed advantage over Doflamingo, Luffy will have to use Snakeman to match that and protect Doflamingo from pretty much dying before he gets to flinch.


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## Red Admiral (Jun 25, 2019)

you may think this is a 3 Vs 4 ... but with Cracker thing go badly for Luffy and the rest

now I know people like to hype Zoro to YC 1 but for me he is YC 3 level until proven otherwise

so yes it's a close call any way but since Cracker power out outnumber Luffy team I go with Teak Katakuri


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## barreltheif (Jun 25, 2019)

Skinny Phallus said:


> Yes, it's still was done by Cracker's biscuit soldier, Luffy couldn't handle the s. He was inside it, manipulating it as usual. Do I really have to post scans of it?
> Key words: "It took everything you had to defeat a 'guy'...Who was nothing more than one of the infinite amount of biscuits I have at my beck and call..."
> Meaning, it was just another biscuit soldier, he just hid in it and referred to it as his armor.



Cracker fighting in his armor is not the same as the endless biscuit soldier fodders. Cracker himself in his armor is tough because of his CoA, which like all CoA comes in a limited supply.




> He still tagged it mid-air, just because it was out-stretched doesn't make it less impressive. Neither Doflamingo nor Zoro have shown the ability to cut through a G4 Luffy level opponent. So, my point still stands.



Wait. You think that if Zoro had a free hit against Luffy, he wouldn't even be able to cut him?




> Yes, it is relevant. Zoro's not an Admiral or a Yonko/YC. Hence, he doesn't get any of the scaling. He's a character from the main cast that still grows every arc he's in. Cracker gets the YC scaling...



I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not talking about powerscaling. You brought up the fact that Zoro hasn't been shown defeating anyone strong as Cracker. Once again, this is not evidence that Cracker would beat Zoro, because (1) lots of people stronger than Cracker haven't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Cracker, and (2) Cracker hasn't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Zoro. That was my entire point.



> Cracker has also shown the ability to manhandle all of Luffy's gears.



*Spoiler*: __


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## El Hermano (Jun 26, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Cracker fighting in his armor is not the same as the endless biscuit soldier fodders. Cracker himself in his armor is tough because of his CoA, which like all CoA comes in a limited supply.


-His endless soldier fodder showed the ability to block a Kong Organ without being moved from their spots(albeit, some had their shields break). Their armor is as tough. IIRC, the only indicator of Cracker using COA on his biscuit armor was when he said "Hard Biscuit", only then Luffy mentioned that his CoA's very hard. They're very durable. And regardless - we've seen the likes of Katakuri using CoA without having to be in direct contact with their DF ability.





> Wait. You think that if Zoro had a free hit against Luffy, he wouldn't even be able to cut him?


He's yet to prove that his CoA's strong enough. So yes. I'm referring strictly to G4 Luffy.





> I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not talking about powerscaling. You brought up the fact that Zoro hasn't been shown defeating anyone strong as Cracker. Once again, this is not evidence that Cracker would beat Zoro, because (1) lots of people stronger than Cracker haven't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Cracker, and (2) Cracker hasn't been shown defeating anyone as strong as Zoro. That was my entire point.


That is related to powerscaling...
You can give people much stronger than Cracker the benefit of the doubt, because you know they're top-tier. I don't have to see Shanks defeating Zoro to know that he could easily oneshot his ass. Zoro doesn't get that benefit of the doubt. Zoro's yet to show anything to prove that he's on Cracker's level, meaning - capable of dealing with opponents on G4 Luffy's level. Simple as that. Is it really that hard to undertand?



> *Spoiler*: __


Could've easily handled that one as well if he were patient. He wasn't.

And in order to break through those guys and their shield Luffy needed Gear 4. It took him 2 KGs to break through the one Cracker was in and the same goes to the rest of them, seeing how they each blocked a Kong Organ and ended up only losing their shields(and even then, not all of them did). Cracker flew in a force equivalent to a bunch of G4 attacks right through the soldiers and smashed into the castle's floor iirc.
The Tank-man was what appears to be a one-time kind of asspull.


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