# EMS Madara + SM Hashirama vs BM Minato + BSM Naruto



## Cognitios (Jul 28, 2014)

Location: 8 Point Barrier thing that Obito did
Restrictions: Summons
Knowledge: Rep
Mindset: In it to win it
Stipulations: Existing the Barrier is considered a ring out, Madara can use Izanagi at the cost of PS and genjutsu

Scenario 2: Kyuubi is fighting along side Mads/Hashi, Naruto and Minato start out with toad army + ma and pa


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## Cognitios (Jul 28, 2014)

Also if Buddha is too OP restrict it.
Not sure on forums stance on Naruto/Minato's ability to defend against it.


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## Hachibi (Jul 28, 2014)

Inb4 Hussain 

BSM Naruto > EMS Madara
SM Hashi > BM Minato
since Hashi is gonna finish his fight against Minato faster than Naruto against Madara, Naruto gonna get ganged

Thousand Hand too op


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## Psp123789 (Jul 28, 2014)

BM Minato(scaled to Bm naruto) > EMS madara
BSM Naruto >= Hashirama

Naruto and Minato take it.


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## Kyu (Jul 28, 2014)

Distance?

Naruto and his old man can only beat Hashirama and Madara if there is an insane gap inbetween the two teams. _Senpo: Chō Bijūdama_ eradicates anything in the founding duo's arsenal. _Shin Sūsenju_'s arms got blown to shit by normal sized _Bijudama_ - numerous massive BD powered up by Senjutsu will render the statue ineffective at the very least.

Let this battle begin at the usual starting distance of twenty meters and Hashirama's team eventually puts the two perfect jins down via lolmokutonsuppression. 

In Scenario II - Strongest Father/Son duo lose unless 100% Kurama is immobilized by Ma/Pa's _Magen: Gama Rinshō_ and the two successfully put a ton of land between them & the founders.


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## trance (Jul 28, 2014)

BSM Naruto is arguably the strongest while BM Minato is arguably the weakest. Despite my belief, BM Minato and BSM Naruto work quite well as a team and were able to get a solid hit on Juubito (even if it didn't do any damage). Still, it's likely Madara and Hashirama also work well together. I'd give it to them more times than not.


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## ARGUS (Jul 28, 2014)

Madara and Hashirama win both scenarios, 
--PS has a higher durability than the kurama avatar, and with SS being able to overwhelm their kuramas along with mokuton variants restraining their chakra, and both the father son having a time limit, means that they are not winning

in the second scenario they win rather easily, as madara having the kyuubi puts him and hashi individually above both of them


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## Empathy (Jul 28, 2014)

I share the sentiment that Naruto's the strongest on the field while Minato's the weakest. A _senpou_-powered and charged _Bijuudama_ has the power to blow away any construct Hashirama and Madara can bring to the battlefield, including _Shin Suusenju_, especially if Minato charges his own _Bijuudama_ in unison. Furthermore, it's possible that Madara could actually be the weakest link here. With both of the Kyuubi's yin and yang halves present, Madara wouldn't be able to summon the full Kyuubi if their fight occurred at the same juncture. That limits Madara's best card to perfect _Susanoo_ alone, and that may not be stronger than one of the Kuramas. _Shin Suusenju_ is also far too big to wear _Susanoo_ as armor, but I suppose the _Mokujin_ could do it. In a fight between a perfect _Susanoo_ and one of Kurama's halves, I would give _Susanoo_ a slight edge, though. 

In Madara's and Hashirama's final battle, perfect _Susanoo_ was treated as a larger threat than the full Kyuubi — only requiring _Mokuton: Mokuryuu_ to be dealt with compared to the _Mokuton: Mokujin_ which had to be brought out against perfect _Susanoo_. Those techniques, in conjunction with perfect _Susanoo_, can indubitably keep up with the Kyuubis before Naruto augments his Kyuubi form with senjutsu chakra. Furthermore, it makes sense that Naruto's more recent power-up (senjutsu combined with his bijuu form) would be required to contend with Sasuke's concurrent one (perfect _Susanoo_), rather than Naruto already being stronger before he leveled up. Naruto can barely edge out against Hashirama in my opinion, but Madara's perfect _Susanoo_ should clear Minato by a greater margin than Naruto could defeat Hashirama by. I believe Madara and Hashirama would barely win because they're more well-rounded. In the second scenario where Madara has access to another full Kyuubi, their victory is a lot more assured.


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## Panther (Jul 28, 2014)

What's stopping Minato from warping away shinsuusenju once it appears on the battlefield?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2014)

BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama

BM Minato > EMS Madara


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 28, 2014)

Panther said:


> What's stopping Minato from warping away shinsuusenju once it appears on the battlefield?



Not enough chakra to do something like that. He ran out of chakra after transporting the remaining Shinobi Alliance (Probably like 2000 by now). 

Anyway, Madara and Hashirama take it handily. 

EMS Madara (W/Kurama) >>> BM Minato>=Madara ( W/O Kurama)
SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto


Scenario 1: Madara and Hashirama win High-Diff
Scenario 2: Madara and Hashirama win Easy-Mid Diff


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## SSMG (Jul 28, 2014)

I think one oodma bijjudama(or whatever its called the one naruto charged against the five bijjubombs) expolsion should be big enough to wipe anything hashirama and madara summon off the map.


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## Veracity (Jul 28, 2014)

Team legends win the first scenario albiet extreme difficulty. Sage Hashirama should barely edge out BSM Naruto while PS Madara should be able to stalemate BM Minato long enough for an exhausted base Hashirama to help tip the scales .

Scenario 2 the legends absolutely rape. Kyyusussano + Battlefield level Mokuton suppression + Buddah statue = a very low difficulty battle.


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## Panther (Jul 28, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> *Not enough chakra to do something like that*. He ran out of chakra after transporting the remaining Shinobi Alliance (Probably like 2000 by now).


 Are you forgetting that Base Minato warped away a Juubi-sized TBB without breaking a sweat? pretty confident that he can erect a barrier pretty confident that he can erect a barrier pretty confident that he can erect a barrier pretty confident that he can erect a barrier

Also again wrong about BM Minato running out chakra because he teleported the alliance. Sure we did have a scan of him breathing a little after teleporting the alliance, but nothing about him running out of chakra. . The very next chapter Minato used BM and a giant Rasengan, and in the same chapter he was helping Naruto make a combined Senpou-Bijuudama. Minato ran out of chakra because of the Shinju draining everyone from their chakra. 

Nothing stops Minato from warping shinsuusenju away once it appears on the battlefield.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 28, 2014)

Sage Hashirama can mid-diff BSM Naruto and Edo Minato (BM) at the same time; his arsenal is the ultimate counter to Jins that aren't coated by something like Susano'o. He can also keep them on their feet with his terrain manipulation, and they're simply incapable of matching Hashirama's Shinsuusenju.

The only difficulty arises from catching Minato. 

The addition of EMS Madara, however, turns this match-up into a low-diff stomp.



EDIT: Does EMS Madara have 100% Kyuubi?
If so, that makes it a no-diff rape.


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## Hachibi (Jul 28, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Sage Hashirama can mid-diff BSM Naruto and Edo Minato (BM) at the same time; his arsenal is the ultimate counter to Jins that aren't coated by something like Susano'o. He can also keep them on their feet with his terrain manipulation, and they're simply incapable of matching Hashirama's Shinsuusenju.
> 
> The only difficulty arises from catching Minato.
> 
> ...



Hashi can't mid-diff BSM Naruto and BM Minato at the same time 

Thousand Hand get destroyed with a Senpo Super Bijuudama and God Gate can get avoided

and this match isn't a stomp since EMS Madara is inferior of both of them individually

And scenario 2, Contract Seal make the Kyuubi either neutral or it change side


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 28, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Hashi can't mid-diff BSM Naruto and BM Minato at the same time
> 
> Thousand Hand get destroyed with a Senpo Super Bijuudama and God Gate can get avoided
> 
> ...



BSM Naruto can't avoid or escape Senpou: Myoujinmon.
It requires the power of Juubi Jins, and it's doubtful that even Hiraishin would be useful while suppressed by the gates. Minato will be too busy focusing on his own safety and fighting off Mokuryuu. In the meantime, Hashirama can put Naruto to sleep and overwhelm his father via Jukai Koutan and Kajukai Kourin.

Shinsuusenju isn't really needed, to be honest.


And Madara isn't inferior to the two of them.


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## Hachibi (Jul 28, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> BSM Naruto can't avoid or escape Senpou: Myoujinmon.
> It requires the power of Juubi Jins, and it's doubtful that even Hiraishin would be useful while suppressed by the gates. Minato will be too busy focusing on his own safety and fighting off Mokuryuu. In the meantime, Hashirama can put Naruto to sleep and overwhelm his father via Jukai Koutan and Kajukai Kourin.
> 
> Shinsuusenju isn't really needed, to be honest.
> ...



BSm Naruto can avoid Myoujinmon thank to his Flash Shunshin and the power of Juubi Jin and above is only required to destroy the Gate.

Minato one-shot Mokuryu if he keep his distance and Naruto can nuke Jukai Koutan and Kajukai Kourin

Shinsuusenju is needed to have a chance to win

EMS Madara without Kyuubi is inferior to both with BM Minato being debatable


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 28, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> BSm Naruto can avoid Myoujinmon thank to his Flash Shunshin



Considering the speed/numbers/AoE of those gates, I really don't see that happening.



> and the power of Juubi Jin and above is only required to destroy the Gate.



And BSM Naruto doesn't have the power of a Juubi Jin.



> Minato one-shot Mokuryu if he keep his distance and Naruto can nuke Jukai Koutan and Kajukai Kourin



Naruto isn't nuking anything when he's easy bait for Senpou: Myoujinmon.
Along with that, Minato will have a difficult time parrying forests and Mokuryuu at the same time.

Once Naruto is finished off, he's not going to last very long.



> Shinsuusenju is needed to have a chance to win



Umm... Shinsuusenju gives Hashirama the ability to demolish them.



> EMS Madara without Kyuubi is inferior to both with BM Minato being debatable



EMS Madara w/o 100% Kyuubi defeats BSM Naruto with high difficulty.
EMS Madara w/o 100% Kyuubi defeats Edo Minato (BM) with moderate difficulty.


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## Krippy (Jul 28, 2014)

Hashirama is the strongest while Minato is the weakest. Madara is a bit stronger than Naruto by portrayal. Honestly,  PS combined with Wood human would wreck their shit. Add Shinsuusenju in the mix and that's a wrap.


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## Amol (Jul 29, 2014)

Naruto is strongest here and if we scale BM naruto's feats to Minato then he can overpower EMS Madara.
Father-Son wins here.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Naruto alone lose against Hashirama due to lolMokuton


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2014)

I think it's more like SM Hashirama > BSM ~= BM Minato > EMS Madara w/o Kurama.

I place hashirama so high because of how damn powerful he's been portrayed, he's been portrayed as the strongest good guy until 8th gated gai (he was the measuring stick for juubito's power), and the fact that the context of Tobirama's speech at least somewhat implied that like EMS Sasuke wasn't as strong as Madara, BSM Naruto wasn't as strong as Hashirama.

I feel like BM Minato should be right up there with BSM Naruto since his FTG abilities make him a teleporting BM Naruto which is extremely haxed.  Both are above ESM Madara's PS as BM Minato can quickly produce bijuudamas the same size as madara's PS, can warp them into PS, teleport away from PS's attacks or behind it, and has the feats of BM Naruto where he blocks the juubi's laser with his tails.  BSM Naruto would beat PS since he's BM Naruto with his entire arsenal given the massive powerup of senjutsu as well as getting EMS level reactions and having the ability to make clones in his avatar fire off his lesser nukes.

As for the matchup, I think Naruto and Minato would win more than not.  I think the gap between father and son vs madara is greater than the gap between father and son vs Hashirama, and I think that they support each other better since minato can warp naruto out of trouble or warp attacks into the enemies (which really helps against shinsuusenjuu) and naruto can spam clones to spread the kunais.

I'm open to other suggestions though because admittedly i didn't put a lot of thought into my 2 vs 2 analysis.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I think it's more like SM Hashirama > BSM ~= BM Minato > EMS Madara w/o Kurama.
> 
> I place hashirama so high because of how damn powerful he's been portrayed, he's been portrayed as the strongest good guy until 8th gated gai (he was the measuring stick for juubito's power), and the fact that the context of Tobirama's speech at least somewhat implied that like EMS Sasuke wasn't as strong as Madara, BSM Naruto wasn't as strong as Hashirama.
> 
> ...



What's ESM? 
Also bolded: tanking the Juubi's lazer doesn't matter against PS since blunt attack =/= cutting attack
tho I agree with you overall


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Considering the speed/numbers/AoE of those gates, I really don't see that happening.


myonjinmon only works on immobilized or stationary targets.  That's why hashirama didn't think about using it when he fought madara at VoTe or as an edo until madara get murked by SM Chou oodama FRS.  

Naruto would either dodge it, break it with a jutsu, or cancel his cloak and shunshin out.




King Itachi said:


> Naruto isn't nuking anything when he's easy bait for Senpou: Myoujinmon.
> Along with that, Minato will have a difficult time parrying forests and Mokuryuu at the same time.


asside from myoujinmon not being an option, how is hashirama going to use both that and mokuyruu and forests at the same time?  Also, mokuryu and forests are fodder to minato, a single normal bijuudama destroys all of that, even mokujin like it did in canon.



King Itachi said:


> Umm... Shinsuusenju gives Hashirama the ability to demolish them.


individually maybe.  Together?  BSM Naruto super bijuudamas warped into the statue gg.




King Itachi said:


> EMS Madara w/o 100% Kyuubi defeats BSM Naruto with high difficulty.
> EMS Madara w/o 100% Kyuubi defeats Edo Minato (BM) with moderate difficulty.


now this i'd like to hear the reasoning for.  BM Naruto was already capable of casually making bijuudamas as big as Madara's PS.  BSM NAruto's bijuudamas would at least double in power, there's no way PS is withstanding a bijuudama that's just as large let alone FAR larger than itself.  Then there's the fact that BM Naruto blocked a far more powerful attack than a PS slash with its tails, BSM Naruto's avatar should be even more durable than BM Narutos.  Finally BSM Naruto can have clones throwing mini nukes and his avatar should be much more mobile than Madaras.  So i fail to see how Madara is beating BSM Naruto.

Same thing with BM Minato, he can warp bijuudamas into PS and warp away from attacks.

I don't see any portrayal argument that compares BSM NAruto/BM Minato to EMS Madara w/o Kyuubi.  Edo madara can't be portrayed that way as he's far stronger than the EMS Madara equivalent as he has the rinnegan and hashirama's cells.  Not only that but Edo madara was matching SM Hashirama, who we all know would have stomped EMS Madara with shinsuusenjuu if madara lacked kurama.


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> What's ESM?
> Also bolded:* tanking the Juubi's lazer doesn't matter against PS since blunt attack =/= cutting attack*
> tho I agree with you overall


Why is the bolded true?  First off, since when is a concentrated laser a blunt attack?  Second, since when does attacks differing in nature = NOTHING can be inferred about how much each would damage the same thing?


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Why is the bolded true?  First off, since when is a concentrated laser a blunt attack?  Second, since when does attacks differing in nature = NOTHING can be inferred about how much each would damage the same thing?



1) you're right , the laser is a piercing attack  fair enough
2)BM Naruto didn't take all of the laser or he would be dead and imo most of the Bijuu if not all are weak to cutting attack (i.e Hachibi or the Shukaku Clone in part 1) so if the Kurama Avatar  take a PS slash it shouldn't walking away like nothing happened even if it's powered with SM


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> 1) you're right , the laser is a piercing attack  fair enough


lets assume its a blunt force attack though, just for kicks and gigs.



Hachibi94 said:


> 2)BM Naruto didn't take all of the laser or he would be dead


you mean because it had to first sweep across the map?  Yeah, i can agree that a significant portion of the laser didn't hit naruto.  However, I doubt he would have been dead considering the laser didn't fully destroy his 6 tails, he still had 3 full tails left, and then the laser would still have to get through the arms and body of his avatar.  As far as the power that Naruto did take from the laser, it's still far more powerful than a PS slash considering the laser is powerful enough to instantly overpower the bijuudamas that come into contact with it.  Naruto's tails at least took a mountain range leveling attack.



Hachibi94 said:


> and imo most of the Bijuu if not all are weak to cutting attack (i.e Hachibi or the Shukaku Clone in part 1) so if the Kurama Avatar  take a PS slash it shouldn't walking away like nothing happened even if it's powered with SM


Well the bijuu that the cutting attacks have been used on are all flesh and blood.  BM Naruto is an avatar.  The hachibi isn't really weak to cutting attacks, it's just that his tails are much less durable than his body.  Shukaku clone didn't really take a blunt force attack.  Kurama sure didn't seem like he was weak against cutting attacks as he didn't even bleed after taking a SM FRS to the chest.  The juubi didn't seem like it was weak to cutting attacks either as it's tails (weakest part of the body) weren't cut by the multiple slashes of giant fuuton and samurai chakra swords.

Also from what I know, a cutting attack is simply an attack that inflicts is power across a relatively thin AoE.  The arc of a PS slash is so large that a bijuu-sized target should take much more damage from a direct bijuudama hit than the PS slash's shockwave.  However getting directly hit by the sword would result in much more damage than a direct hit from a bijuudama since all the power is being focused on the edge of the sword that makes contact.


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2014)

Are Minato/Naruto allowed to summon the Frogs and give them their chakra?
Because if so, I don't see how Madara/Hashirama are going to stop Frog Song! 

or is Minato allowed to use them to stay in SM for all the time he wants?

not to mention that even without the frogs, Naruto was already portrayed to be stronger than Hashirama according to BZ, and the fact that Naruto's power allowed him to meet Hagoromo, while Hashirama was never able to do so.




BM Minato >= BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama > EMS Madara....  

Edit:


> Restrictions: Summons



Never mind. 

as for scenario 2


> Scenario 2: Kyuubi is fighting along side Mads/Hashi, Naruto and Minato start out with toad army + ma and pa



Minato uses his contract seal to take Kurama away from Madara, and then 
1- either they fight along each other and fodderstomps team 1
2- Minato seals the other Kurama either inside himself or his child to lolfodderstomps team 1.

It's terrible enough to deal with 1 Kurama who does not even have a host

and according to Kushina, even that he needed Mito to help.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I place hashirama so high because of how damn powerful he's been portrayed, he's been portrayed as the strongest good guy until 8th gated gai (*he was the measuring stick for juubito's power*)



Hashirama was never the measuring stick for Juubito's power. If you are talking about the fact that Madara said he hadn't had that much fun (fighting Gai) since the Vote battle, that means nothing. Vote battle Madara was weak in comparison to Juubidara. EMS Madara fun =/= Juubidara.


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2014)

Hashirama can solo this, the blonde duo have nothing Hashirama can't handle ot tank.


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2014)

^
the only thing he can solo is himself. 
he does not stand a chance against both at the same time, heck he can't even beat one.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> the only thing he can solo is himself.
> he does not stand a chance against both at the same time, heck he can't even beat one.



BSM Naruto can only beat Hashi if the distance between them is massive


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2014)

Madara is stronger than Minato, Minato has no way of getting pass PS, while Hashirama is the strongest.

Hashirama's Buddha Golem destroyed The full Kyuubi + PS without much problems. Naruto only having half of the Kyuubi can't make up for with Sage Mode, and not having PS either. So I say Hashirama destroys Naruto and then destroys Minato.

I hadn't seen the summons were restricted, I don't know if that counts for Hashirama's Buddha or not. However, with Hashirama's dragon he can absorb Naruto's chakra very well, as well as Minato's.

I mean, Hashirama can redirect Bijuu bombs from full Kyuubi with that Hachimon castle.

Hell, Madara could probably beat Naruto too.


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> BSM Naruto can only beat Hashi if the distance between them is massive



No, it was already stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama by BZ. 



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Madara is stronger than Minato, Minato has no way of getting pass PS, while Hashirama is the strongest.
> 
> Hashirama's Buddha Golem destroyed The full Kyuubi + PS without much problems. Naruto only having half of the Kyuubi can't make up for with Sage Mode, and not having PS either. So I say Hashirama destroys Naruto and then destroys Minato.
> 
> ...



PS has no way of not getting teleported. 

Hashirama's Buddha Golem has no way of bypassing the S/T barrier, nor does it have the speed that rivals FTG either, so it cannot land even a hit.

- lol, SM Naruto alone already destroyed 3 of those dragons, and the dragons have no way of landing on Minato or Naruto either because of the HUGE GAP in speed. 

- If Hashirama tried to redirect a TBB Minato will redirect it to his face via the chakra link.  

- No he could not.


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## ueharakk (Jul 29, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Hashirama was never the measuring stick for Juubito's power. If you are talking about the fact that Madara said he hadn't had that much fun (fighting Gai) since the Vote battle, that means nothing. Vote battle Madara was weak in comparison to Juubidara. EMS Madara fun =/= Juubidara.



I was referring to *this* when I said he was the measuring stick for juubito's power.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No, it was already stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama by BZ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By feat, BSM Naruto doesn't surpass Hashi since Hashi is a bad match-up for him


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> By feat, BSM Naruto doesn't surpass Hashi since Hashi is a bad match-up for him



by feats Naruto was dealing with V2 Obito when Hashirama shat on himself from V1 Obito.  
Naruto dealt with far superior opponent and destroyed even the Sage's tools.

by hype it was stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama.
by hype Hashirama stated that he is weaker than V1 Obito, and Minato stated they he will defeat him. 

it can't get any clearer than that.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> by feats Naruto was dealing with V2 Obito when Hashirama shat on himself from V1 Obito.
> Naruto dealt with far superior opponent and destroyed even the Sage's tools.
> 
> by hype it was stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama.
> ...



If Naruto was dealing alone with Juubito and PIS off, he would lose his head 
Correction, The Rookie did it thank to Naruto's chakra so don't give it to Naruto alone.

By hype,Naruto was said to have the potential to be a better hokage than Hashirama which isn't combat-related 
yeah, and Byakugo Sakura > 2 Rinnegan Juubidara just because she thought she could deal with him 

You should give more evidence please


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> If Naruto was dealing alone with Juubito and PIS off, he would lose his head
> Correction, The Rookie did it thank to Naruto's chakra so don't give it to Naruto alone.
> 
> By hype,Naruto was said to have the potential to be a better hokage than Hashirama which isn't combat-related
> ...



I don't care PIS or not, I do care of what happened.  
whether you consider it PIS or not is not important as that won't change a thing, no? 

- lol, they are Naruto's Rassengans and chakra, and either way he can replace them with clones. 

- I don't know what the heck does that have to do with BZ's statement honestly. 
- She never said she would beat him, and I don't see how it's fair to compare Sakura to Minato.
Nevertheless, that's hype for you.  

I gave you direct statements from the manga, I don't know what to tell you more.
and even their feats are too far apart, Hashirama was completely useless in this war and the Father-son were the two doing everything. 

if Hashirama was stronger or better than them, kishi would have putted the greater deal on him, but rather he was off-paneled.  

anyway, the forum has a problem with me today apparently, I can't reply normally for some reasons.


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## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't care PIS or not, I do care of what happened.
> whether you consider it PIS or not is not important as that won't change a thing, no?
> 
> - lol, they are Naruto's Rassengans and chakra, and either way he can replace them with clones.
> ...




Minato lose his right arm do to PIS, Juudara/Juubito didn't nuke evrything due to PIS, and tell me how does BSM Naruto manage to defeat Juubito without Minato,Tobirama or Sasuke? 
-Sage's Tool are featless anyway and their hype are meaningless since they didn't live up to it 
-BZ's statement is too vague to properly use it anyways 
-She believe she catched up to RSM Naruto and Sharinnegan Sasuke ,who are treat to Juudara and beside she wouldn't attack him if she thought she had a chance 
Also,I like Minato, but he was used as a Hype Tool for both Juubito and Juudara  and he's irrevelant in the battle vs Kaguya for now

Hashi pinned the Juubi down, which would have fired his Bijuu Bomb on the Alliance and was protecting the Alliance for Edo Madara.
Without Tobirama, SM Naruto would *never* touch Obito and forced Obito to unleash the Shinju and without Sasuke, BSM Naruto could never extract the Bijuu 

You know there's a chance Naruto isn't Minato's son because Naruto's conception got off-paneled  see your logic 

Don't misunderstood me, I like Naruto and Minato but I know where they stop Power-Wise  also it's fun (and long) to debate with you


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 29, 2014)

Panther said:


> Are you forgetting that Base Minato warped away a Juubi-sized TBB without breaking a sweat? *this* *this* *this* Link removed



That's not Jubi sized, and the Jubi is only the size of PS, and PS would only go up to Shinsuusenju's knees, and base Minato can still use Kurama's chakra. 



> Also again wrong about BM Minato running out chakra because he teleported the alliance. Sure we did have a scan of him breathing a little after teleporting the alliance, but nothing about him running out of chakra. . The very next chapter Minato used BM and a giant Rasengan, and in the same chapter he was helping Naruto make a combined Senpou-Bijuudama. Minato ran out of chakra because of the Shinju draining everyone from their chakra.



Ok, he made a Rasengan and after that he did not even have enough chakra to use FTG to save Naruto. The Shinju did not get its hands on Minato nor Tobirama. 





> Nothing stops Minato from warping shinsuusenju away once it appears on the battlefield.



Both his chakra supply and the fact that we have yet to see a barrier as big as Shinsuusenju created stops him from using it. Also, what would be the point of doing something like that? He can only send it to a nearby tag so.............


----------



## Jagger (Jul 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No, it was already stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama by BZ.


When and where?


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

Jagger said:


> When and where?



He mean that Minato ran out of chakra because of the Shinju draining everyone from their chakra


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## Jagger (Jul 29, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> He mean that Minato ran out of chakra because of the Shinju draining everyone from their chakra


Yet, didn't Hashirama just met him as well? 

It is possible I'm misunderstanding something, but it's possible the situation for both Naruto and Hashirama were never the same. For the former, he's currently in a position much more complicated and tied to Rikkudo Sennin than Hashirama originally was during his lifetime.


----------



## Cognitios (Jul 29, 2014)

Hashi proved he had tha power literally last chapter. Idk if you've read it yet. Just sayin


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 29, 2014)

I'm not on Hussain side, just showing you his argument


----------



## Panther (Jul 29, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That's not Jubi sized


 Did you click on the scans or are you ignoring them? The Juubidama that Minato warped away was clearly the same size as the Juubi. 





> and the Jubi is only the size of PS


 Proof? At best the Juubi is the same size as Shinsuusenju's body without his arms.



> and PS would only go up to Shinsuusenju's knees


 True 



> and base Minato can still use Kurama's chakra.


 Yea he does when goes into RM :Zaru 

if you are implying that he used some of Yin Kurama's chakra in Base to warp away that Juubi-sized bijuudama then you will have to give proof that base Minato didn't do it with his own chakra reserves.



> Ok, he made a Rasengan and after that he did not even have enough chakra to use FTG to save Naruto. *The Shinju did not get its hands on Minato *nor Tobirama.


 You're making it sound like he made a regular sized Rasengan and ran out of chakra 

After teleporting the Alliance Minato pulled out BM, Rasengan the size of a Bijuu's body, helping Naruto make a super-bijuudama





I hardly call that running out of chakra because he teleported the Alliance out of Juubito's barrier.

*Bolded:* Minato in BM getting carried away by the Shinju's branches



Minato commenting on how he has no chakra because the Shinju's branches drained all of his chakra 





> Both his chakra supply and the fact that *we have yet to see a barrier as big as Shinsuusenju created stops him from using it*.


 His chakra supply is just fine with Yin-Kurama at his side.

*Bolded:* Minato doesn't need to make a barrier to warp Shinshuusenju away! 

He only needs to touch it with his chakra and he can warp it out of the battlefield 





And seeing as Minato can spread his chakra arms for miles away, touching Shinsuusenju won't be much of a problem. 





> Also, what would be the point of doing something like that? *He can only send it to a nearby tag* so.............


 He warps Shinsuusenju into the ocean 

  
Without Shinsuusenju at their side Hashi and Madz get vaporized with all their jutsu's by a combined superdama from the father-son team.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 29, 2014)

Are you people not smart enough to use spoiler tags to cover large images?


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## Panther (Jul 29, 2014)

^ chill bro, wasn't done editing yet.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 29, 2014)

Panther said:


> Did you click on the scans or are you ignoring them? The Juubidama that Minato warped away was clearly the same size as the Juubi.



Clearly not, its only the size of its body. 



> Proof? At best the Juubi is the same size as Shinsuusenju's body without his arms.



lol no, I will proof you some other time, maybe tomorrow. 





> Yea he does when goes into RM :Zaru
> 
> if you are implying that he used some of Yin Kurama's chakra in Base to warp away that Juubi-sized bijuudama then you will have to give proof that base Minato didn't do it with his own chakra reserves.
> 
> ...



I was ready to waste my time to counter all of these points until I saw the last one. That's all you needed to prove me wrong on this point. 



> *Bolded:* Minato doesn't need to make a barrier to warp Shinshuusenju away!



Either way, it goes to a tag. 



> He only needs to touch it with his chakra and he can warp it out of the battlefield



Nope, he cannot wrap it out of the battlefield unless he has Pre-placed tags outside of the battlefield. 



> He warps Shinsuusenju into the ocean



He had a tag on a rock in that ocean, which only proves that he can only wrap things to his tags. 



> Without Shinsuusenju at their side Hashi and Madz get vaporized with all their jutsu's by a combined superdama from the father-son team.



PS and probably Mokujin tanked 4 Jubidamas. I could elaborate by I don't have the time right now, il edit this post tomorrow.


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## Panther (Jul 30, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Clearly not, its only the size of its body.


 Its  bigger than the Juubi's body, its only because of its tails that the Juubi has the edge in size.



> lol no, I will proof you some other time, maybe tomorrow.


 so you have no proof...



> I was ready to waste my time to counter all of these points until I saw the last one. That's all you needed to prove me wrong on this point.


 You got proven wrong the moment Minato used BM and giant rasengan + TBB after teleporting the Alliance, showing us that he didn't go out of chakra because he teleported the Alliance like you stated earlier



> Either way, it goes to a tag.


 so? doesn't stop Minato from doing his job and warping it away shinshuusenju into the ocean. OP also didn't restrict Minato's tags outside the barrier, so nothing stops him from doing it.



> Nope, he cannot wrap it out of the battlefield unless he has Pre-placed tags outside of the battlefield.


 see above.



> He had a tag on a rock in that ocean, which only proves that he can only wrap things to his tags.


 your point?



> PS and probably Mokujin tanked 4 Jubidamas. I could elaborate by I don't have the time right now, il edit this post tomorrow.


  seriously dude? back in the VOTE fight Mokujin together with Jukai koutan and Moukuton dragon got vaporized by a standart TBB from Kurama and now somehow Moukujin gained the durability to tank 4 Juubidama's 

Madara and Hashirama with their jutsu's clearly got vaporized and then started regenerating because of them being Edo

Here's a panel of Madara after the quad-juubidama's explosion, you can clearly see Madara's body still regenerating


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

> =Hachibi94;51340375]
> Minato lose his right arm do to PIS, Juudara/Juubito didn't nuke everything due to PIS, and tell me how does BSM Naruto manage to defeat Juubito without Minato,Tobirama or Sasuke?




Obito tried to nuke everyone and failed actually. As for BSM Naruto defeating JJ Oiboo, he does not.
and I did not say he can, what I said he was against him, and did fine, while Hashirama is far weaker
than even V1 JJ Obito. He couldn't even deal with edo Madara, who's also far weaker than Obito.


> -Sage's Tool are featless anyway and their hype are meaningless since they didn't live up to it
> -BZ's statement is too vague to properly use it anyways


- Still they created the world according to obito. 
- Not really, he stated "power" specifically. 


> -She believe she catched up to RSM Naruto and Sharinnegan Sasuke ,who are treat to Juudara and beside she wouldn't attack him if she thought she had a chance
> Also,I like Minato, but he was used as a Hype Tool for both Juubito and Juudara  and he's irrelevant in the battle vs Kaguya for now


- She never said that actually, she only stated that about KCM Naruto and PS-less EMS Sasuke. 
- Yes, he was used to hype them, just like everyone else. The different, in that regard is the fact that he did so much against them unlike everyone else apart from Naruto and Sasuke.



> Hashi pinned the Juubi down, which would have fired his Bijuu Bomb on the Alliance and was protecting the Alliance for Edo Madara.


He actually did fire his TBB, but the barrier stopped it. As for Madara, he was the one actually who went to Hashirama. I still can't believe how Hashirama's fans took that situation the wrong way. Hashirama was the one who's being stopped not the other way. 


> Without Tobirama, SM Naruto would *never* touch Obito and forced Obito to unleash the Shinju and without Sasuke, BSM Naruto could never extract the Bijuu



and? Never said that Naruto is stronger than obito. 


> You know there's a chance Naruto isn't Minato's son because Naruto's conception got off-paneled  see your logic


wut? 



> Don't misunderstood me, I like Naruto and Minato but I know where they stop Power-Wise  also it's fun (and long) to debate with you



they stop in top. 
I usually don't go in long debates as I believe they are useless, but thanks anyway man. 



Jagger said:


> Yet, didn't Hashirama just met him as well?
> 
> It is possible I'm misunderstanding something, but it's possible the situation for both Naruto and Hashirama were never the same. For the former, he's currently in a position much more complicated and tied to Rikkudo Sennin than Hashirama originally was during his lifetime.



Naruto met him by his own power. Hagoromo appearing to the Hokages was because of the combined power of Asura, Indra, and Kurama as Hagoromo stated himself.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Obito tried to nuke everyone and failed actually. As for BSM Naruto defeating JJ Oiboo, he does not.
> and I did not say he can, what I said he was against him, and did fine, while Hashirama is far weaker
> than even V1 JJ Obito. He couldn't even deal with edo Madara, who's also far weaker than Obito.
> 
> ...



-Juudara didn't nuke anything tho so my point still stand and beside I don't think BSM Naruto alone can defeat V1 JJ Obito so using that as a point isn't very accurate

-So that mean Itachi is invincible? 
-Even if BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama, he still lose to him because match-up just like 2 MS Obito vs Nagato, Obito win thank to kamui/hax rather than raw power 

-http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/676/5 while it show in the image KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, she think she could do a thing to Juudara which is > Current Naruto and Current Sasuke individually 

-Well,Minato didn't do shit to Juubito after the God Tree was and after he took Juudara's ball (that what she said) or even to stop Madara to capture the Bijuu again 

Still,he immobilize the Juubi, that's a feat and beside, Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama stallmated 

-I'm saying that you shouldn't give all the feat to Naruto 

-I was just saying that since you think taht hashi's death was off-paneled and thus, he wasn't very important, that since Naruto's conception was off-paneled, he wasn't important 

-Too bad only Current Naruto is God Tier and BM Naruto/Minato are Top Tier 
no problem


----------



## ARGUS (Jul 30, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> BSM Naruto can only beat Hashi if the distance between them is massive


He doesnt beat him thats all there is,



Hussain said:


> No, it was already stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama by BZ.


No it wasnt, 



> Hashirama's Buddha Golem has no way of bypassing the S/T barrier, nor does it have the speed that rivals FTG either, so it cannot land even a hit.


--Lol,  the S/T barrier is not doing shit to a juubi sized statue, 
it only works on thrown projectiles which SS clearly isnt, annd not to mention that even if minato tries to come close, then he is getting ragdolled by Chojo Kobetsu

--SS doesnt need the speed either since its attacks have more than enough AOE to bypass minatos limits of FTG, meaning that he wouldnt be able to teleport the attack, meaning that hhe would have to tank, it, resulting in him either getting overwhelmed or getting restrained, 


> - lol, SM Naruto alone already destroyed 3 of those dragons, and the dragons have no way of landing on Minato or Naruto either because of the HUGE GAP in speed.


Again, speed is not doing much due to the sheer AOE of their attacks, 
not to mentino that hashiramas mokuton constructs are able to catch the TBB and throw it right back at Minato or Naruto


> - If Hashirama tried to redirect a TBB Minato will redirect it to his face via *the chakra link.*


its useless since his mokuton constructs would be able to not only tannk the attack but can then redirect it back along with thhe mokuton based attacks as well
what chakra link are you on about??????



Hussain said:


> by feats Naruto was dealing with V2 Obito when Hashirama shat on himself from V1 Obito.
> Naruto dealt with far superior opponent and destroyed even the Sage's tools.


He dealt  with him with the back of BM Minato, EMS Sasuke, and Tobirama,, 
and afterwards the whole alliance,, 
by your logic, i could say that Hashirama > Naruto, since Madara was concerned about Hashirama joining them to fight Juubito which was why he intervened, 


> by hype it was stated that Naruto is stronger than Hashirama.


Yeah becuase BSM Naruto was given the title  of God of Shinobi, 
and was stated to be the only one capable of beating Madara,  
and was sttated by Kabuto to be superior to any living shinobii,, 
oh wait,  he wasnt,​


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

I'll reply to you latter people. @>@


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 30, 2014)

Panther said:


> Its  bigger than the Juubi's body, its only because of its tails that the Juubi has the edge in size.



The tails always count. That's like excluding the Buddha's arms in its general size.



> so you have no proof...



Do you know how to read? 

Look at Madara on the Jubi's head here. Look at Madara in PS's head here . Roughly the same size. PS would only go up to Shinsuusenju's knees,you said it yourself, as would the Jubi more or less.



> so? doesn't stop Minato from doing his job and warping it away shinshuusenju into the ocean. OP also didn't restrict Minato's tags outside the barrier, so nothing stops him from doing it.



He can't place tags outside the barrier without Prep, so he can't do it. 



> see above.



See above. 



> your point?



I stated my point in the same sentence you replied to with this 



> seriously dude? back in the VOTE fight Mokujin together with Jukai koutan and Moukuton dragon got vaporized by a standart TBB from Kurama and now somehow Moukujin gained the durability to tank 4 Juubidama's



LOL vaporized? There wasn't a single dent in Mokujin after the point blank range Bijudama, and there wasn't any damage whatsoever on PS's armour as well. 



> Here's a panel of Madara after the quad-juubidama's explosion, you can clearly see Madara's body still regenerating



Madara's PS tanked 4 Jubidamas for Madara (though PS itself was mainly destroyed): 



Here we see on the bottom that Madara's Edo cracks on in such formation, the same formation as in the following:



Usually when an Edo regenerates his Edo cracks change as shown here:


 After meteor hit:


His chin crack and his forehead crack changed/appeared, but you can make an arguement saying that Kishi is not always consistent with mere cracks so I will supply more evidence that he tanked those 4:



Here we also see that his has small bruises, you have to remember that if Edos get substantially damaged they regenerate. Once they regenerate any previous damage/strain on the body dissapears as they return to there formal form. So once regenerated, any bruise, dirt stain or strain on the body is gone. If he had indeed been injured to the point of regeneration those marks would have not been there. Furthermore as an add on for those people that I know will deny all this no matter what, they regenerated way to quickly if they indeed had to regenerate, not only did they regenerate but Madara had a formational Susanoo glob (that usually turns to that state once a form of Susanoois destroyed BTW), while it took Tobirama several whole battle sequences to regenerate.


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## ARGUS (Jul 30, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I think it's more like SM Hashirama > BSM ~= BM Minato > EMS Madara w/o Kurama.


Agreed


> As for the matchup, I think Naruto and Minato would win more than not.  I think the gap between father and son vs madara is greater than the gap between father and son vs Hashirama, and I think that they support each other better since *minato can warp naruto out of trouble or warp attacks into the enemies (which really helps against shinsuusenjuu)* and naruto can spam clones to spread the kunais.


The AOE for SS is far too large for Minato to evade  with just FTG, 
not to mention that the OP hasnt speciffied that minato has any additional prep, meaning that he has to form marks during the battle, which wont cover the range to just BFR



Panther said:


> Are you forgetting that Base Minato warped away a Juubi-sized TBB without breaking a sweat? here  here  here  here


Agaiin, teleporting something like TBB is quite different from SS, 
one is a thrown projectile,, which is very suited for the S/T barrier, whereas SS is a juubi sized statue, and not to mention that in-order  for  minato to teleport  something like SS, he needs to come close, meaning that he would be left open for Madara/Hashirama to attack to, 

on top of that Base Minato telepoting the juubi TBB is completely invalid since he was an edo in that state, and inb4 ''edos still have their living chakra capacity'' no, 
since we saw minato get completely exhausted after teleporting the kyuubi, something thats the size of an insect in comparison to SS



> Nothing stops Minato from warping shinsuusenju away once it appears on the battlefield.


Where exactly would Minato warp away SS, if he gets lucky to even do that, 
the OP hasnt stated any additional prep to Minato, meaning thhat he has to place markings as  the battle progresses, annd with the battle destroyin the entire landscape, 
FTG is not helping the father/son duo evade attacks at all,​


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## Panther (Jul 30, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The tails always count. That's like excluding the Buddha's arms in its general size.


 Did i anywhere state that the tails didn't count ?   I said the Juubi with it's tails barely edged out the Juubidama size... Still doesn't change the fact that it's Juubi-sized unless you dodn't accept anything being Juubi-sized till its the same size to the millimeter.



> Do you know how to read?


 Do you know how to show proof aside from making excuses and saying i'll show you later?



> He can't place tags outside the barrier without Prep, so he can't do it.
> See above.
> I stated my point in the same sentence you replied to with this


 So according to you all of Minato's kunai outside of the barrier are prep?  

Unless the OP explicitly mentioned that the kunai outside the barrier count as prep or are restricted then nothing says he can't use them to warp things outside the barrier and into the ocean!



> LOL vaporized? There wasn't a single dent in Mokujin after the point blank range Bijudama, and there wasn't any damage whatsoever on PS's armour as well.


 Then you must have skipped this scan here showing us Moukujin and Moukuton dragon getting destroyed and vaporized. And in the next couple of pages later we see Hashirama emerging from the ground with a different Moukuton and with no sight of Moukujin or the other Moukuton that were on the battlefield before the Bijuudama exploded.



> Madara's PS tanked 4 Jubidamas for Madara (though PS itself was mainly destroyed):


 PS tanking the quad-Juubidama is fanfic. And posting a scan of Juubito firing the quad-juubidama's is not proof that Madara and Hashirama tanked them with their jutsu.



> Here we see on the bottom that Madara's Edo cracks on in such formation, the same formation as in the following:


 No its not the same as the one below, this scan shows Edo-Madara sill not having fully regenerated from being vaporized by the quad-juubidama's together with Hashirama. And the one above being Edo-Madara with his normal Edo look with lines in his face.



> Usually when an Edo regenerates his Edo cracks change as shown here:


 That's Edo-Madara when he first appeared in the manga and before he ever was damaged, also that's how all Edo's normally look when not regenerating.



> After meteor hit:


 further proving my point that Madara was vaporized with Hashirama by the quad-juubidama's as he has the same regenerating going on from being turned to dust by the meteor's as he did after the juubidama's explosion.



> His chin crack and his forehead crack changed/appeared, but you can make an arguement saying that Kishi is not always consistent with mere cracks so I will supply more evidence that he tanked those 4:


 Kishi is very consistent with his cracks, it's you that dodn't get it. I'm talking about the bruises in his face that haven't fully regenerated like in the scan where he was still regenerating after being turned to dust by the meteor's.

I've done my job here. This debate started about how Minato can easily warp shinshuusenju outside the battlefield with you disagreeing because he lacks the chakra, which i proved you wrong with manga proof. This debate about wether Edo-Madara and Hashirama tanked the Quad-Juubidama's is a waste of my time. If you dodn't believe me that they got vaporized together with their jutsu's then feel free to make another thread discussing wether they tanked it with PS/Moukujin or got vaporized and i guarantee you that most if not all with tell you that they got vaporized and post the same scans i did.

Have a Nice day.


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## Cognitios (Jul 30, 2014)

There is nothing outside of the barrier, nor can anything be teleported into or out of the barrier.


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## Panther (Jul 30, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> There is nothing outside of the barrier, nor can anything be teleported into or out of the barrier.


 oh well


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 30, 2014)

Panther said:


> Did i anywhere state that the tails didn't count ?   I said the Juubi with it's tails barely edged out the Juubidama size... Still doesn't change the fact that it's Juubi-sized unless you dodn't accept anything being Juubi-sized till its the same size to the millimeter.



The tails are part of the Jubi, saying its Jubi sized means that its the same size as the Jubi and its tails. 



> Do you know how to show proof aside from making excuses and saying i'll show you later?



Are you not embarrassed to say this statement? Because I assure you you are making yourself look pretty ridiculous. I have shown you proof, you are conceding. 



> So according to you all of Minato's kunai outside of the barrier are prep?



YES, this is common sense. Unless he can somehow throw his Kunai right through the barrier  



> Unless the OP explicitly mentioned that the kunai outside the barrier count as prep or are restricted then nothing says he can't use them to warp things outside the barrier and into the ocean!



 its the complete opposite. Unless the OP explicitly states that he has prep to place tags outside of the barrier, HE CAN'T. He can't wrap things outside of the barrier without having a Tag outside of the barrier which he cannot have without prep. 



> Then you must have skipped this scan here showing us Moukujin and Moukuton dragon getting destroyed and vaporized. And in the next couple of pages later we see Hashirama emerging from the ground with a different Moukuton and with no sight of Moukujin or the other Moukuton that were on the battlefield before the Bijuudama exploded.



In no way did that show Mokujin getting vaporized. And he emerged from Mokujin. It would have been impossible for him to survive a attack that vaporized Mokujin considering the fact that he was on its head when the explosion happened. 



> PS tanking the quad-Juubidama is fanfic. And posting a scan of Juubito firing the quad-juubidama's is not proof that Madara and Hashirama tanked them with their jutsu.



Ah, the fanfic excuse, an excuse only made by someone who is in denial. Anyway, please read carefully, this picture was to show the cracks on Madara's face before the Juubito firing the Jubidamas. 



> No its not the same as the one below, this scan shows Edo-Madara sill not having fully regenerated from being vaporized by the quad-juubidama's together with Hashirama. And the one above being Edo-Madara with his normal Edo look with lines in his face.



Its the exact same cracks as the one above, the EXACT same. The only difference between the two faces is that the one after getting hit by the Jubidama has bruises on his face. 



> That's Edo-Madara when he first appeared in the manga and before he ever was damaged, also that's how all Edo's normally look when not regenerating.



The statement is referring to the image above. 



> further proving my point that Madara was vaporized with Hashirama by the quad-juubidama's as he has the same regenerating going on from being turned to dust by the meteor's as he did after the juubidama's explosion.



Not at all. Please look at the images closely. 




> Kishi is very consistent with his cracks, it's you that dodn't get it. I'm talking about the bruises in his face that haven't fully regenerated like in the scan where he was still regenerating after being turned to dust by the meteor's.



The more consistent Kishi is with his cracks, the more it serves my point. 



> I've done my job here. This debate started about how Minato can easily warp shinshuusenju outside the battlefield with you disagreeing which i proved you wrong with manga proof, this debate about wether Edo-Madara and Hashirama tanked the Quad-Juubidama's is a waste of my time. If you dodn't believe me that they got vaporized together with their jutsu's then feel free to make another thread discussing wether they tanked it with PS/Moukujin or got vaporized and i guarantee you that most if not all with tell you that they got vaporized and post the same scans i did.



Well you haven't done your job either way, because you where completely wrong about him being able to do it. A threat concerning this matter would be a waste of my time.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Here, we go. @>@


> =Hachibi94;51349814]-Juudara didn't nuke anything tho so my point still stand and beside I don't think BSM Naruto alone can defeat V1 JJ Obito so using that as a point isn't very accurate


JJ Madara got fodderized right away, but he still did a massive distraction with CT. As for BSM Naruto
he surely has a great chance against V1 Obito who couldn't even control his full power, and even his Gedu-damas were only 2 rather than 10. 





> -So that mean Itachi is invincible?
> -Even if BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama, he still lose to him because match-up just like 2 MS Obito vs Nagato, Obito win thank to kamui/hax rather than raw power



Don't know why do people always bring itachi to me. lol
but anyway, itachi's weakness were shown, and thus he is not because sound fodderizes him.

- No, he does not as his FRS/ TBB and his speed can deal with Hashirama's woods. You can't 
say Yamato is stronger than Naruto because of his wood, or Hashirama is stronger than current Naruto because he suppresses the Bijuu's power, can you? 


> -http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/676/5 while it show in the image KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, she think she could do a thing to Juudara which is > Current Naruto and Current Sasuke individually


you said it yourself, it's shown KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, so I don't see why are you still going on about it. Also, In Minato's case he saw Obito's power and speed, and stated that he would defeat him, and when Obito got stronger he changed that to create an opining which means he does realise the power thing. 


> -Well,Minato didn't do shit to Juubito after the God Tree was and after he took Juudara's ball (that what she said) or even to stop Madara to capture the Bijuu again


How did Minato do shit after than when he was the one who gave Naruto his chakra to enter his BM again, and he was the one who used the chakra arm and make everyone involve?  


> Still,he immobilize the Juubi, that's a feat and beside, Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama stallmated
> 
> -I'm saying that you shouldn't give all the feat to Naruto



- A feat which is useless here though, as for Madara and Hashirama, no Madara was the victorious. 
- I did not.  
what I am saying is he did the biggest job. 


> -I was just saying that since you think taht hashi's death was off-paneled and thus, he wasn't very important, that since Naruto's conception was off-paneled, he wasn't important
> 
> -Too bad only Current Naruto is God Tier and BM Naruto/Minato are Top Tier
> no problem [



- lol, yeah, it's not important to us to see Minato and Kushina having sex. 
- And that's still enough to beat those jokers. 


> [=ARGUS;51350140]
> No it wasn't,​



Yes it was, you can see for yourself in the previous page.  


> --Lol,  the S/T barrier is not doing shit to a juubi sized statue,
> it only works on thrown projectiles which SS clearly isn't, annd not to mention that even if minato tries to come close, then he is getting ragdolled by Chojo Kobetsu


lol, yes it will. 
here
the TBB was as big as the Juubi there
here
in the second panel from the bottom it was bigger than the Juubi
and Shikamaru stated it's getting bigger and bigger. Minato dealt with that in BASE without a sweat.

- Projectiles argument is a made up fan-fiction created by Hashirama's fans. lol
What Minato does is create a barrier anything thing touches the barrier will get teleported. 
Even Kamui, all it does is creating a barrier as well. 

the side note: "He's able to specify the *barrier's* location and size as well" 

In addition, if Minato creates the barrier, and Hashirama attacked with his paunches, you think the punches will bypass the barrier as if it isn't there? 

It will at least be something like this


not as you think that it won't even exist. lol 


> --SS doesnt need the speed either since its attacks have more than enough AOE to bypass minatos limits of FTG, meaning that he wouldnt be able to teleport the attack, meaning that hhe would have to tank, it, resulting in him either getting overwhelmed or getting restrained,



lol, Minato's limit of FTG? There is no limit to FTG, and Minato in his base shunshin speed was able
to put the Kunais at much larger area than any of Hashirama's attacks, let alone with his KCM/BM speed. 


> Again, speed is not doing much due to the sheer AOE of their attacks,
> not to mention that hashiramas mokuton constructs are able to catch the TBB and throw it right back at Minato or Naruto


Sorry, but that nonsense, the area around the Juubi was too grate. Hashirama and Madara were fighting in it the whole time, did that effect anyone at all from the SA who were around? No, it did not.

It does not matter if he threw it back, because since their attack have their chakra Minato can teleport it behind him and he wouldn't even realise it. In addition, why do you even assume they will attack him from the front? How do you know they won't teleport behind them and fire their jutsus?

you know like when Tobirama teleported them from Obito's back? Or when Minato teleported in top
of Obito and rassenganed him? It's your problem that you think that attacks will be straight in front of them and not taking the teleportation factor in consideration. 


> its useless since his mokuton constructs would be able to not only tannk the attack but can then redirect it back along with thhe mokuton based attacks as well
> what chakra link are you on about??????


ONLY the SS was able to tank a TBB, ALL his other jutsus were destroyed by a small size TBB. 

- Minato can teleport anything has his chakra (like he did to the SA) and his attacks have his chakra, so he can teleport the attacks to any tagged place. 


> He dealt  with him with the back of BM Minato, EMS Sasuke, and Tobirama,,
> and afterwards the whole alliance,,
> by your logic, i could say that Hashirama > Naruto, since Madara was concerned about Hashirama joining them to fight Juubito which was why he intervened,


Hashirama was not alone either, yet he still stated so.

- lol, no you can't. Because what Madara was aiming at is to steal Hashirama's SM because he wanted to weakened obito, but for his surprise Naruto and the others defeated obito which he stated that he was thankful for. 


> Yeah becuase BSM Naruto was given the title  of God of Shinobi,
> and was stated to be the only one capable of beating Madara,
> and was sttated by Kabuto to be superior to any living shinobii,,
> oh wait,  he wasnt,


How does that title help him exactly?
Hashirama was not give the titles of the child of prophecy, of the Saviour of the world either. Both of which hold MUCH more importance and kishi emphasised on those titles MUCH more than only god of shinobi which holds no significance in the story whatsoever.

Yeah, it was stated before Naruto gets his BSM and before Minato achieve his BM either, what's your point? 

- Yes, he wasn't and again, Kabuto's statement does not include BSM Naruto nor does it include BM Minato either...​


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## Panther (Jul 30, 2014)

This is my last post in this thread. I already proved my point so there is no need to waste my time anymore.



Destiny Monarch said:


> The tails are part of the Jubi, saying its Jubi sized means that its the same size as the Jubi and its tails.


 The Juubidama is Juubi-sized, using it's tails to show that it isn't Juubi-sized because it edges slighty in size is just nitpicking. 



> Are you not embarrassed to say this statement? Because I assure you you are making yourself look pretty ridiculous.* I have shown you proof, you are conceding*.


 Bolded: Aren't you a hypocrite for making this statement? Let me refresh your memory 



Destiny Monarch said:


> *Jubi is only the size of PS, and PS would only go up to Shinsuusenju's knees*,





> lol no, *I will proof you some other time, maybe tomorrow.*


 Still hasn't shown any proof aside from spouting nonsense and fanwank... Concession accepted.



> YES, this is common sense. Unless he can somehow throw his Kunai right through the barrier


 No it isn't, you dodn't see people restricting Minato's tags outside the battlefield so that he can warp things, unless explicity stated so by the OP. which he did but thats besides the point.



> its the complete opposite. *Unless the OP explicitly states that he has prep to place tags outside of the barrier, HE CAN'T*. He can't wrap things outside of the barrier without having a Tag outside of the barrier which he cannot have without prep.


 O Rly? it's quit the opposite actually as the OP restricted Minato from warping things outside the battlefield in the 3rd page of this thread.



> In no way did that show Mokujin getting vaporized. *And he emerged from Mokujin*. It would have been impossible for him to survive a attack that vaporized Mokujin considering the fact that he was on its head when the explosion happened.


 Again wrong. That jutsu he used to emerge out of the ground is . Mokujin, Moukuton Ryu and Jukai koutan all got vaporized by Kurama's TBB



> *Ah, the fanfic excuse, an excuse only made by someone who is in denial*. Anyway, please read carefully, this picture was to show the cracks on Madara's face before the Juubito firing the Jubidamas.


 So this statement of yours isn't fanfic and extreme fanwank? 





Destiny Monarch said:


> Madara's PS tanked 4 Jubidamas for Madara (though PS itself was mainly destroyed)


  Still no proof to back it up. concession accepted.

and those ''cracks'' are regular edo-Tensei lines that all normal edo's have when not damaged.



> Its the exact same cracks as the one above, the EXACT same. The only difference between the two faces is that the one after getting hit by the Jubidama has bruises on his face.





> The statement is referring to the image above.





> Not at all. Please look at the images closely


 Dude those ''cracks'' are regular edo-tensei lines... 



> The more consistent Kishi is with his cracks, the more it serves my point.





> *Well you haven't done your job either way, because you where completely wrong about him being able to do it*.


 Concession accepted 

Your excuses as to why Minato couldn't warp Shinshuusenju away.



Destiny Monarch said:


> and base Minato can still use Kurama's chakra.


 if you are implying that he used some of Yin Kurama's chakra in Base to warp away that Juubi-sized bijuudama then you will have to give proof that base Minato didn't do it with his own chakra reserves.

You still haven't backed up your statement with proof.



> Ok, he made a Rasengan and after that *he did not even have enough chakra to use FTG to save Naruto. The Shinju did not get its hands on Minato nor Tobirama*.


 Countered 



> Both his chakra supply and the fact that we have yet to see a barrier as big as Shinsuusenju created stops him from using it.


 Again countered 

Minato doesn't need to make a barrier to warp Shinshuusenju away! 

He only needs to touch it with his chakra and he can warp it out of the battlefield 





And seeing as Minato can spread his chakra arms for miles away, touching Shinsuusenju won't be much of a problem. 





> That's all you needed to prove me wrong on this point


 you conceded remember?

I did my job very well, i proved my point and that's all i need :ignoramus 



> A threat concerning this matter would be a waste of my time


 waste of your time because you know that you're wrong and there doesn't need be a thread to pointing out the obvious? agree.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Madara and Hashirama tanked the 4 TBBs, just as much as Hiruzen did.


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## Panther (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Madara and Hashirama tanked the 4 TBBs, just as much as Hiruzen did.


 I rest my case


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## Hachibi (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Here, we go. @>@
> 
> JJ Madara got fodderized right away, but he still did a massive distraction with CT. As for BSM Naruto
> he surely has a great chance against V1 Obito who couldn't even control his full power, and even his Gedu-damas were only 2 rather than 10.
> ...



JJ Madara didn't get radgolled until Gai got in 8th Gate, he didn't need the other alive so he can't nuke them
-V1 JJ Obito blize BSM Naruto like Naruto did to Kaguya

That's because you said the tool had great hype, then I took Itachi because he's invincible with them
and please show me a panel where Itachi get fodderized by a non-Senjutsu Powered Sound Technique please 
-the gap is so small that between them that Naruto get all of his projectile bar FRS/COFRS back in his face

-Knowing Power=/=Knowing Moveset and beside,didn't Minato said he's gonna give a opening to Naruto/Sasuke? 

-He didn't participate in the battle directly tho 

-Madara did have a lot of problem defeating Hashi tho, and it's not like Edo Madara Wood Dragon'ed BM Naruto 

-Sasuke did alot of the job too, since it was the sword that gave the opening to extract the Bijuus

-Then there's still a chance Minato isn't the real father then 
-Anyways, I won't keep this debate (lack of time) so let's agree to disagree


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

> -Anyways, I won't keep this debate (lack of time) so let's agree to disagree



no problem. I have exam tomorrow as well and I don't really have much time myself. @>@


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 30, 2014)

Panther said:


> This is my last post in this thread. I already proved my point so there is no need to waste my time anymore.



Not very well. 



> The Juubidama is Juubi-sized, using it's tails to show that it isn't Juubi-sized because it edges slighty in size is just nitpicking.



You forgot to say IMO, as that's not a common opinion. 



> Bolded: Aren't you a hypocrite for making this statement? Let me refresh your memory
> 
> Still hasn't shown any proof aside from spouting nonsense and fanwank... Concession accepted.



I have already shown you the proof, there is no hypocrisy here. Since you have not countered it, concession accepted. 



> No it isn't, you dodn't see people restricting Minato's tags outside the battlefield so that he can warp things, unless explicity stated so by the OP. which he did but thats besides the point.



Yes because its common sense.* Unless its specifically stated in the OP that Minato starts off with tags outside the location, he does NOT start off with tags outside the location. *



> O Rly? it's quit the opposite actually as the OP restricted Minato from warping things outside the battlefield in the 3rd page of this thread.



Yes, because he had to make it clear to someone like you that there are no Prep tags outside of the barrier. I wouldn't state it in the OP either because I would have thought its common sense up until this argument. 



> Again wrong. That jutsu he used to emerge out of the ground is . Mokujin, Moukuton Ryu and Jukai koutan all got vaporized by Kurama's TBB



Any proof of this? Does it say in the Manga or Databook? That's a fan made name by Wiki no less. You have failed to provide a reason to how Hashirama would survive the attack if Mokujan was destroyed, other then using fan made names to try and prove that they are different techniques. Concession accepted. 

Edit: Madara says "you are trying to counter my tailed beast with Mokuton Houdi...." he is not nessesarily referring to a Bijudama, rather, Kurama. Also, I forgot to mention that Mokujin squared off against PS >>> Mokujin that tanked the single Bijudama. 



> So this statement of yours isn't fanfic and extreme fanwank?   Still no proof to back it up. concession accepted.



No offence, but your either extremely ignorant or can't read. In what way have I not shown you proof? You are desperately in denial.  



> and those ''cracks'' are regular edo-Tensei lines that all normal edo's have when not damaged.



Yes but they change when he has too reform a body or part of a body. Yet they did not change after the 4 Jubidamas which means he did not regenerate. 





> Dude those ''cracks'' are regular edo-tensei lines...



^



> Concession accepted
> 
> Your excuses as to why Minato couldn't warp Shinshuusenju away.



How can you accept my concession when your the one that has been proven wrong? How does that work? 

 if you are implying that he used some of Yin Kurama's chakra in Base to warp away that Juubi-sized bijuudama then you will have to give proof that base Minato didn't do it with his own chakra reserves.



> You still haven't backed up your statement with proof.
> 
> Countered
> 
> ...



Why did you just regurgitate things that where already cleared up? 



> waste of your time because you know that you're wrong and there doesn't need be a thread to pointing out the obvious? agree.



I know that I am right, and I don't like wasting my time on pointless threads to which I already know the answer too.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

It's beyond me why you two are arguing about that scan with the Juubi and its TBB, when in the very next page
it was stated that it's getting bigger and bigger. 

Not to mention Minato can control the barrier's size, who said that was his limit? 
not to mention that barrier he created was in base, he can make it MUCH bigger if he wants to.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Madara and Hashirama tanked the 4 TBBs, just as much as Hiruzen did.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

lol, wut. 
do you agree, or do you not agree. lol
that gif is kinda confusing... lol


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2014)

I agree. The gif represents me laughing at Destiny Monarch after he reads the post


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