# Hiraishin-less Living Minato vs. War Arc Kakashi (not DMS)



## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

*Distance: *35 meters
*Location: *Itachi vs. Kakashi
*Mindset: *IC
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Restrictions: *Shiki Fuujin, Hiraishin, Senjutsu, Kamui

Who wins?


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm thinking War Arc Kakashi honestly.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 15, 2017)

-Manga knowledge means minato knows about kamui.
-Minato can use his clones, even base shunshin to pressure kamui charge.
-Minato can summon gamatrio or use a FCD
-Kakashis chance would be to use a kamui wrap on real minato
-With gamatrio , clones  at disposal and most importantly knowledge on kamui I see minato winning more times then not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rai (Jan 15, 2017)

Gama Trio paste Kakashi


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

ℜai said:


> Gama Trio paste Kakashi



He casually evades it and if he happens to be within Minato's vicinity, then the Trio have to refrain from attacking.

 Besides, Raiden skewers them.


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## Rai (Jan 15, 2017)

They can easily jump to evades it and destroy Kakashi's clone.

Kakashi stands no chance against Gama Trio + Two Great Sage + Minato.

His only salvation might be Genjutsu...use the summons against Minato.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 15, 2017)

Minato wins, Kakashi has Sharingan but Minato has insane reflexes and moves speed. Kakashi has Raikiri but Minato has big Rasengan, Kakashi is smart, yet Minato is smarter, he has more chakra, can make more clones and has powerful summons. So yeah Minato wins high diff.

Also I think Hiraishinless Minato is supposed to be stronger than sannin without their ultimate form themselves slightly stroner than Kamuiless War Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2017)

Kakashi should win 
Mid diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 15, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato wins, Kakashi has Sharingan but Minato has insane reflexes and moves speed. Kakashi has Raikiri but Minato has big Rasengan, Kakashi is smart, yet Minato is smarter, he has more chakra, can make more clones and has powerful summons. So yeah Minato wins high diff.
> 
> Also I think *Hiraishinless Minato is supposed to be stronger than sannin without their ultimate form themselves slightly stroner than Kamuiless War Kakashi*.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 15, 2017)

How is Minato smarter than Kakashi, again? Not saying Minato doesn't win, but what intelligence feats put him over Kakashi?


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2017)

Why would Minato summon Gama trio vs Kakashi? He was outnumbered in quality per fighter vs Ei and Bee yet didn't and chose to use FTG. He isn't gonna opt to use summons as a counter Kamui cause that's just a meatshield and he has FTG which he used to counter FTG before so it's much more likely he tries that IMO.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 15, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> How is Minato smarter than Kakashi, again? Not saying Minato doesn't win, but what intelligence feats put him over Kakashi?


Kamui + GudoDama + strategy against JJ Madara are three direct situations where Minato showed superiority toward Kakashi in terms of insight and tactics.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> How is Minato smarter than Kakashi, again? Not saying Minato doesn't win, but what intelligence feats put him over Kakashi?



With prior knowledge, it took kakashi, gai, naruto, and bee multiple chapters to decipher obitos phasing and took teamwork to effectively counter.

Minato took 2 attacks to figure it out and countered the technique by his lonesome with no prior knowledge while worrying about the safety of an entire village and his wife who just gave birth, got kidnapped, and had a biju ripped out of her, and his son who was exposed to all of this shit within minutes of being born.

Then you have all the ridiculous hype you have from multiple high level characters, friends and foes alike, who put minatos genius on an unsurpassed pedestal. 

And its safe to say minato is smarter than kakashi, or at least the same level.

OT

Kakashi should lose...

Minato is smarter or just as smart for sure

Minato still has boss summons that can shit diff kakashi as he has no effective counter to em.

Minato w/o FTG would still be a solid tier faster than kakashi, and still has multiple tiers better reactions, from 35m, kakashi is in danger from the get go honestly, minatos base speed impresses sharingan users.

Minato has odama level rasengans that would demolish raikiri, giving him another edge over kakashi.

Minato has sensing that can distinguish between KBs, eliminating a big part of kakashis playbook.

Minato has better reserves


As far as i can tell, kakashis only advantage is his range, but even that is eliminated when minato calls out bunta and has him spam near biju sized water bullets to murder kakashi.

Reactions: Like 4


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2017)

Minato takes this. His close quarter limb speed and reflexes are beyond Kakashi's capability, not to mention the speed and volume of his kunai throws which happen to still be lethal weapons and not just FTG markers.

Without Kamui Kakashi relies on clones and Raikiri.

Minato has faster clones and a large Rasengan.

Adding in the Boss Frogs & Ma/Pa is overkill.


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## Ayala (Jan 15, 2017)

Minato figured out Obito materializes before pulling something in in combat, something Kakashi had already figured before fighting him with Gai, as showed when he had gated Gai attack him the moment he was lying his hands on Naruto, so let's not undervaluate his intelligence and overwank Minato.

 Like what, Minato figured out in two seconds what took Kakashi, Gai and people chapters to figure out... That's too much, lets not invent bullshit 

What Kakashi didn't know was that his Kamui dimension was related to his own left eye, which he had no way to know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2017)

Let's also not forget it was a vastly less experienced form of Obito also functioning as a retard and forgetting about FTG mechanics.

As far as limb speed and kunai throwing speed, Obito could physically react to Minato's hand/body speed and casually kamui'd his kunai throw from < 5m.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Like what, Minato figured out in two seconds what took Kakashi, Gai and people chapters to figure out... That's too much, lets not invent bullshit


You're not being fair here, in nearly all instances of Kakashi vs. Obito/Tobi, took place in the same battlefield, Minato had the luxury of seeing him in more places than once. The intangibility was something they had known for a while. Minato didn't just make a guess out of nowhere, he had more facts to draw from than Kakashi.


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## Ayala (Jan 15, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> You're not being fair here, in nearly all instances of Kakashi vs. Obito/Tobi, took place in the same battlefield, Minato had the luxury of seeing him in more places than once. The intangibility was something they had known for a while. Minato didn't just make a guess out of nowhere, he had more facts to draw from than Kakashi.



I don't know what you're talking about Ryuzaki. What i said was that Kakashi just as Minato had already figured out Obito materializes before pulling stuff in his dimension, without fighting him. 

So saying Minato figured out in two moves what took Kakashi, Gai and people to figure out for several chapters is straight up nonsense, it didn't happen.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> So saying Minato figured out in two moves what took Kakashi, Gai and people to figure out for several chapters is straight up nonsense, it didn't happen.


He had more knowledge than Kakashi and co to figure it is what I'm saying. 

If Kakashi had FTG and he escaped to another location and Obito followed him. He'd know that the jutsu is a space/time jutsu and etc. None of them had that knowledge though, each instance he fought them he just went intangible which is what they already knew.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Minato figured out Obito materializes before pulling something in in combat, something Kakashi had already figured before fighting him with Gai, as showed when he had gated Gai attack him the moment he was lying his hands on Naruto


Kakashi also had that knowledge while going into that fight...a luxury minato didnt have



oetsuthebest said:


> Like what, Minato figured out in two seconds what took Kakashi, Gai and people chapters to figure out... That's too much, lets not invent bullshit


Its not BS when thats exactly what happened tho...

Minato, after encountering kamui for the first time in his life and seeing kamui in action twice, knew exactly how to counter it.

Whereas kakashi had knowledge going into that fight, Kakashi saw kamui phasing in action multiple times during the uchiha bros arc, its teleportation aspect in the FKS arc, and god knows how many during the war with gai and the jins, and it still took em forever to counter it.



oetsuthebest said:


> What Kakashi didn't know was that his Kamui dimension was related to his own left eye, which he had no way to know.


He knew damn near everything else about it going in tho...



Ryuzaki said:


> If Kakashi had FTG and he escaped to another location and Obito followed him. He'd know that the jutsu is a space/time jutsu and etc. None of them had that knowledge though


He knew before the war arc that it was a S/T ninjutsu tho, as he watched obito teleport with it at least 3 times prior to the war.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2017)

Hiraishin is the only think that keeps Minato out of trash tier.

Kakashi schools this kid.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hiraishin is the only think that keeps Minato out of trash tier.
> 
> Kakashi schools this kid.


Without FTG minato is still...

>kakashi in speed
>kakashi in reactions
>kakashi in DC
>kakashi in reserves
>=kakashi in intellect

Then tack on sensing, summons, and clones to match kakashis pound for pound


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Without FTG minato is still...
> 
> >kakashi in speed
> >kakashi in reactions
> ...



 That is highly debatable.

 Kakashi still has superior ninjutsu execution and a more duplicitous application of it as well while Minato's tactical prowess stems from his ability to judiciously apply FTG presumably. Kakashi has the advantage due to the Sharingan if Minato were to attempt ninjutsu as well and Minato's physical speed alone isn't renowned for its ability to blitz Sharingan users in the same fashion that Raikage's is.

 Kakashi isn't outclassed in the least when Minato lacks FTG.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> That is highly debatable.
> 
> Kakashi still has superior ninjutsu execution and a more duplicitous application of it as well while Minato's tactical prowess stems from his ability to judiciously apply FTG presumably. Kakashi has the advantage due to the Sharingan if Minato were to attempt ninjutsu as well and Minato's physical speed alone isn't renowned for its ability to blitz Sharingan users in the same fashion that Raikage's is.
> 
> Kakashi isn't outclassed in the least when Minato lacks FTG.



This.

Implying that Minato has a huge advantage in the speed/reactions department is erroneous as Kakashi has had no issues keeping up with v2 jins which could easily be above v1 A speed and we know that Minato is not as fast as v2 A for sure.

Furthermore evidenced by the fact that Bee was able to put up a counter when Minato teleported to his back and this is the same Bee that was not having an easy time against v1 jins.

People have this misconception about movement speed being the same as combat speed which has never been the case in the manga. Shunshin speed almost never comes into play in combat.

Case on point being KCM Naruto barely outrunning V2 A and getting rekked against the Jins.

Taijutsu skills, and reactions come more into play. Just because you can run faster than someone doesn't mean you can punch faster/have better cqc than them.

Actually if this is the part 1 location then it favors Kakashi even more as he has quite an arrange of Water techs that will keep Minato under pressure, as suiton suiryudan, suiton daibakufu, water clones and water wall for defense.

Taking that into account, I would favor Kakashi more in this battle.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Minato's physical speed alone isn't renowned for its ability to blitz Sharingan users in the same fashion that Raikage's is.





Crimson Flam3s said:


> Implying that Minato has a huge advantage in the speed/reactions department is erroneous



Nowhere did i claim otherwise, all i said was minato was faster and had an edge due to that, you are the ones who took that as "minato is gonna lolblitz" which isnt what i said in the least.

Chill.



UchihaX28 said:


> Kakashi isn't outclassed in the least when Minato lacks FTG.


He is inferior in nearly every stat, perhaps not by a great deal, but he is still inferior.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 15, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nowhere did i claim otherwise, all i said was minato was faster and had an edge due to that, you are the ones who took that as "minato is gonna lolblitz" which isnt what i said in the least.
> 
> Chill.



I think this were your exact words



> Minato w/o FTG would still be a solid tier faster than kakashi, and still has multiple tiers better reactions,



Being a solid tier above someone is a big deal and multiple tiers means you can blitz them before they know what happened.

Minato is extremely fast and has amazing reactions no doubt. But you are underestimating the advantage that you have to have above someone else to make it count, and how many times faster/better reactions you have to be above someone else to blitz them.

What gave Minato the advantage in most occasions was that The opponent was not completely sure of how Hiraishin worked and were caught off guard with it(Not to diminish his feats though) 



> He is inferior in nearly every stat, perhaps not by a great deal, but he is still inferior.



I would say they are certainly close in the cqc department, and give a slight advantage to Minato in reactions and overall speed while ninjutsu wise Kakashi has it in the bag.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nowhere did i claim otherwise, all i said was minato was faster and had an edge due to that, you are the ones who took that as "minato is gonna lolblitz" which isnt what i said in the least.
> 
> Chill.



Being faster doesn't automatically give you the advantage against a Sharingan User. Have you learned nothing from KN0 Naruto vs. 3T Sasuke?



> He is inferior in nearly every stat, perhaps not by a great deal, but he is still inferior.



Kakashi is conspicuously superior in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Duplicity (w/ Ninjutsu), and his Sharingan enables him studiously outline a strategy because he can foresee all of Minato's moves which enables him to execute an appropriate counter. Apparently those that are willingly to allow Minato to triumph with speed alone are unreceptive to doing so with Itachi even though Itachi's feats enable him to blitz Sharingan users, Rinnegan users, and Perfect Sages. But of course, it's perfectly acceptable to display such contemptuous thinking towards other characters because well, it's Minato!

You haven't presented a viable reason such as, "He's faster!" even though most are cognizant of that realization and this is largely mitigated by the Sharingan unless you're Raikage (or Gai for obvious reasons).


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2017)

Minato wins. The problem is Kakashi doesn't have a good answer to boss-summons. Sure Kakashi can evade a few of their physical attacks like Deva-Realm, but while he's busy doing that, it will give Minato openings to set up Jutsu or attack himself. Also Boss-Summons aren't only about their weapons attacks. Bunta's Drilling Water Bullets, FCD, and Oil are attacks with massive AOE that Kakashi is unlikely to be able to simply physically evade and he doesn't have the greatest defense against these techniques ether. I just don't think Kakashi has what it takes to deal with Boss Summons and Minato simultaneously.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Being a solid tier above someone is a big deal and multiple tiers means you can blitz them before they know what happened.


Multiple tiers in reaction time, your reaction speed isnt what allows one to blitz another, thats physical speed, where i put minato at least a tier above kakashi in base speed.

His striking speed allowed him to corner the juubi, merit praise from tobirama, and pressure JJs, kakashi, sharingan or no, is gonna have his work cut out for him dealing with stuff on that level.

Not too mention minatos movement speed is so far above kakashis it isnt even funny.

Point is, *minatos speed>kakashis in every sense of the word*, your dreaming if you think thats not a decent advantage.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> ninjutsu wise Kakashi has it in the bag.


1. This is wrong, minatos summoning is a massive ace in the hole kakashi has 0 counters for.
2. Minato tends to avoid jutsu that use hand seals in order to maximize his edge in speed and make the window for his opponents to attack or defend themselves much smaller, kakashi relying heavily on ninjutsu is a big weakness.
3. Kakashis go to, raikiri, is far weaker than minatos go to, the rasengan.
4. Kakashis inferior stamina makes it difficult for him to utilize ninjutsu in a prolonged battle, which is exactly what this fight is gonna be
5. Kakashis bread and butter ninjutsu would be clone feints, which are extremely taxing for him, and they are nigh worthless against minato due to sensing, meaning if he goes for one he will guranteed botch it and accomplish nothing but burning himself out



Crimson Flam3s said:


> I would say they are certainly close in the cqc department, and give a slight advantage to Minato in reactions and overall speed


Minato has the better speed, and the better ninjutsu for cqc in rasengan, he cleans house in close quarters against kakashi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Being faster doesn't automatically give you the advantage against a Sharingan User. Have you learned nothing from KN0 Naruto vs. 3T Sasuke?


Narutos reactions also paled in comparison to sasukes...that is far from the case here as minato has the clear edge in reactions

Minatos edge isnt solely being able to strike/move much quicker than kakashi, he also has far superior reactions.


UchihaX28 said:


> Kakashi is conspicuously superior in Ninjutsu


Gama trio, rasengan>raikiri


UchihaX28 said:


> Taijutsu


Based on nothing, minatos massive edge in reactions and edge in speed also help him big time here


UchihaX28 said:


> Duplicity (w/ Ninjutsu)


If you are referencing clones here, minatos sensing makes em useless, minatos clones are still effective on the otherhand tho

Sensing also renders headhunter useless

Kakashi aint pulling a feint here, its arguably more likely minato does honestly



UchihaX28 said:


> and his Sharingan enables him studiously outline a strategy because he can foresee all of Minato's moves which enables him to execute an appropriate counter.


Minatos reactions>kakashis

Kakashi being able to "study" minato doesnt matter when minato can do the same damn thing with his superior reactions



UchihaX28 said:


> Apparently those that are willingly to allow Minato to triumph with speed alone are unreceptive to doing so with Itachi even though Itachi's feats enable him to blitz Sharingan users, Rinnegan users, and Perfect Sages.


Minatos speed feats put him above itachi in speed

This is also woefully off topic



UchihaX28 said:


> But of course, it's perfectly acceptable to display such contemptuous thinking towards other characters because well, it's Minato!


Again dude, you need to chill



UchihaX28 said:


> You haven't presented a viable reason such as, "He's faster!" even though most are cognizant of that realization and this is largely *mitigated* by the Sharingan unless you're Raikage (or Gai for obvious reasons).


Exactly, Sharingan allows one to mitigate their opponents edge in speed, *not ignore it...*

Minato has the edge over kakashi in speed in every way imaginable even with sharingan in play, that gives him an edge kakashi will have difficulty compensating for

Ive also never once claimed minato was blitzing here...

All im saying is every exchange they have, minato has an innate edge due to a very noticeable speed advantage.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Multiple tiers in reaction time, your reaction speed isnt what allows one to blitz another, thats physical speed, where i put minato at least a tier above kakashi in base speed.
> 
> His striking speed allowed him to corner the juubi, merit praise from tobirama, and pressure JJs, kakashi, sharingan or no, is gonna have his work cut out for him dealing with stuff on that level.
> 
> ...



Kcm Naruto outran the V2 speed that can "blitz" most ninja and where was that speed when fighting against the jins?

Even during the Konoha Assault, 14 year old Tobi had no issue against his base speed. Only when hiraishin comes into play is that things get dicey.

Better reactions? 



> 1. This is wrong, minatos summoning is a massive ace in the hole kakashi has 0 counters for.
> 2. Minato tends to avoid jutsu that use hand seals in order to maximize his edge in speed and make the window for his opponents to attack or defend themselves much smaller, kakashi relying heavily on ninjutsu is a big weakness.
> 3. Kakashis go to, raikiri, is far weaker than minatos go to, the rasengan.
> 4. Kakashis inferior stamina makes it difficult for him to utilize ninjutsu in a prolonged battle, which is exactly what this fight is gonna be
> 5. Kakashis bread and butter ninjutsu would be clone feints, which are extremely taxing for him, and they are nigh worthless against minato due to sensing, meaning if he goes for one he will guranteed botch it and accomplish nothing but burning himself out



1-Yes, it's a great advantage, however we don't know if he will go for it right away. Also Raiden can cut the summonings like butter. Considering Kakashi had no issues going up against the tailed beasts with gai or raiden chain the Gedo
2-Raikiri can be done without hand seals and plenty of other jutsu.
3-Baseless. I doubt a symbolic naruto/sasuke clash that Kishi likes to do would happen either way.
4-Not having Kamui here means he can just spend it on other jutsu. Water source nearby means less chakra wasted on suiton jutsu.
5-You mean the same sensing that kakashi had no trouble doing? Implying that he has no absolute chance of feinting Minato when he has done the same to the likes of Itachi and Pain is very far fetched.

Considering that each clone returns him his chakra(except raiton), he has water clones and all the water techs Minato has no answer for(Like the one that murked zabuza), I would say he has a clear ninjutsu advantage.



> Minato has speed and summon advantage


 Agreed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Narutos reactions also paled in comparison to sasukes...that is far from the case here as minato has the clear edge in reactions
> 
> Minatos edge isnt solely being able to strike/move much quicker than kakashi, he also has far superior reactions.



 That's trivial, what's crucial here is if Kakashi can react to Minato and Minato can react to Kakashi. Both can do so, but Kakashi has a significant advantage with the Sharingan, so he can react to his attacks more meticulously and with greater precision as was the case here:

 You mean the same sensing that kakashi had no trouble doing?

 Even though Orochimaru wasn't entirely serious, this is just to illustrate how the Sharingan is instrumental against those more reflexive than the wielder. Even Taka Sasuke outmaneuvered V1 Raikage who was proclaimed to be the more reactive fighter:

 You mean the same sensing that kakashi had no trouble doing?

 But hey, why am I substantiating my claim when you have failed to provide a grounded argument that shows Minato's reflexes exceeds Kakashi's by a considerable degree.



> Gama trio, rasengan>raikiri



 The Gama Trio are burdensome if Minato engages Kakashi in CQC. If he disengages, Kakashi simply skewers the Toads with Raiden.



> Based on nothing, minatos massive edge in reactions and edge in speed also help him big time here



 Minato has something to suggest he's more dexterous than Kakashi is. On the contrary, there's nothing indicating that Minato is experienced in Taijutsu while Kakashi has garnered a 4.5 in Part 1 and has trained consistently with a Taijustu Master such as Gai. We're not referencing speed and reactions (which you consistently surmise), rather their adroitness and experience in Taijutsu in general.

 Minato has superior reactions to Base Gai, but he's not defeating Base Gai in Taijutsu.



> If you are referencing clones here, minatos sensing makes em useless, minatos clones are still effective on the otherhand tho
> 
> Sensing also renders headhunter useless
> 
> Kakashi aint pulling a feint here, its arguably more likely minato does honestly



 Some sensors, even the elites such as C, are incapable of maintaining their sensory prowess while focused on combat and quite frankly, there's nothing indicating that Minato's particularly skilled in it. Nonetheless, sensing alone doesn't allow you to discern clones.

 Sharingan is explicitly stated to be intrinsic and instrumental in deciphering clones, so they're largely irrelevant for Kakashi.



> Minatos reactions>kakashis
> 
> Kakashi being able to "study" minato doesnt matter when minato can do the same damn thing with his superior reactions



 You're right. So Minato can scrutinize even the most minuscule of movements well before the opponent can move? This is the advantage Kakashi possesses and Kakashi can actively use this advantage for every single muscle tension made by Minato. He has the advantage in analysis.



> Minatos speed feats put him above itachi in speed
> 
> This is also woefully off topic



 Shut up, let me know when Minato has blitzed a Sharingan User without FTG.

 No it's not because the same argument you've used can be applied to other characters such as Itachi who have demonstrated superior speed feats yet you treat them contemptuously. This is a massive double standard.



> Again dude, you need to chill



 I'm very chill. 



> Exactly, Sharingan allows one to mitigate their opponents edge in speed, *not ignore it...*
> 
> Minato has the edge over kakashi in speed in every way imaginable even with sharingan in play, that gives him an edge kakashi will have difficulty compensating for
> 
> ...



 Arguing semantics because I already highlighted the situations where the Sharingan would blunder.

 All of these are imprudent claims that you have failed to substantiate, so I won't address this until you've actually provided substance for such claims.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He knew before the war arc that it was a S/T ninjutsu tho, as he watched obito teleport with it at least 3 times prior to the war.


Not necessarily, he just knows that he disappears not that he goes into another dimension.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Without FTG minato is still...
> 
> >kakashi in speed
> >kakashi in reactions
> ...



The first two ones in orange are unsubstantiated, as Kakashi's movement speed is faster if not on par and his intellect is greater than Minato's, in sheer quantity and quality.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Apparently those that are willingly to allow Minato to triumph with speed alone are unreceptive to doing so with Itachi even though Itachi's feats enable him to blitz Sharingan users, Rinnegan users, and Perfect Sages. But of course, it's perfectly acceptable to display such contemptuous thinking towards other characters because well, it's Minato!




I'm tempted to sig this, it's just so accurate and was satisfying to read lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The first two ones in orange are unsubstantiated


I assume thats a joke...



Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi's movement speed is *faster if not on par*


Kay its a joke



Ryuzaki said:


> his intellect is greater than Minato's, in sheer quantity and quality.





WorldsStrongest said:


> *Minato, after encountering kamui for the first time in his life and seeing kamui in action twice, knew exactly how to counter it.*
> 
> *Whereas kakashi had knowledge going into that fight*, Kakashi saw kamui phasing in action multiple times during the uchiha bros arc, its teleportation aspect in the FKS arc, and god knows how many during the war with gai and the jins, *and it still took em forever to counter it.*


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Not necessarily, he just knows that he disappears not that he goes into another dimension.


Nope, he knew it was S/T ninjutsu as he directly compared it to FTG in the uchiha bros arc.

Even sakura knew it was S/T jutsu or teleportation.


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## Ayala (Jan 16, 2017)

You're talking about counters not brain WorldsStrongest. 

It was a who strikes first type of thing, with an extremely rushed Obito, who does stupid moves and can't take his time. Hiraishin allowed Minato to strike faster, nothing speaks about his brain being superior to Kakashi's. 

What Minato knew and figured, Kakashi knew and figured. Perhaps he doesn't have the flying thunder god, the closest thing he had was gated Gai.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Better reactions?


Oh boy...

Im not getting into that BS with you again

Minato wasnt moving at full speed there cuz if he was kakashi wouldnt have had time to form a conscious thought as KCM>>>>>anything kakashi has ever demonstrated, and its hardly impressive to halt your movement abruptly like that when you have barely taken a single step forward.

Context ladies and gentlemen...context.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> 1-Yes, it's a great advantage, however we don't know if he will go for it right away. Also Raiden can cut the summonings like butter. Considering Kakashi had no issues going up against the tailed beasts with gai or raiden chain the Gedo


Dont know if youre aware of this...but minatos summons are toads...they can jump raiden easily and then shower kakashi with water bullets. Kakashi then gets pasted.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 2-Raikiri can be done without hand seals and plenty of other jutsu.


None that make a massive difference



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 3-Baseless. I doubt a symbolic naruto/sasuke clash that Kishi likes to do would happen either way.


Baseless? Really?

You really gonna sit there and try to substantiate the fact that raikiri=odama level rasengan? Really?

Kay fam...



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 4-Not having Kamui here means he can just spend it on other jutsu. Water source nearby means less chakra wasted on suiton jutsu.


I think you have a weird misconception on kakashis abilities...

The man doesnt have the stamina to spew out ninjutsu left right and center like you claim he can, and if he tried hes gonna defeat himself

Ive also already stated his ninjutsu advantage is helpful at ranged combat and its for sure an advantage, but its a double edged sword as he cant keep it up for long, itd also be difficult to hit a target as fast as minato with most techs.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 5-You mean the same sensing that kakashi had no trouble doing? Implying that he has no absolute chance of feinting Minato when he has done the same to the likes of Itachi and Pain is very far fetched.


That was also before the bad guy pulled out any clones fam, minato detected and diffirentiated between the clones, kakashi detected a lone opponent. Kakashi has never demonstrated sensory abilities iirc, and it isnt hinted that he sensed his opponent there, knowing kakashi, he likely smelled his opponent, as it was pointed out he had that ability in gaiden. 

I didnt say he has no chance at feinting, i said itd be difficult, and that feints go both ways

Its just minato has crazy sensory abilities that allow him to better defend against clone feints

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> You're talking about counters not brain WorldsStrongest


No im talking about analytical ability...

Minato deciphered kamui after two exchanges, it took kakashi more than that to get the same information, multiple separate encounters actually.


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## Ayala (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No im talking about analytical ability...
> 
> Minato deciphered kamui after two exchanges, it took kakashi more than that to get the same information, multiple separate encounters actually.



Space time jutsu = realized like Minato did after seeing it. 

Phases through = Easy to realize 

Materializes before pulling in = Minato realized it by direct contact with Obito, when he grabbed his hand and tried to pull him in combat. Kakashi figured that out too, without experiencing it in first place. 

The fact he saw Obito more times than Minato means nothing. The circumstances were different, Obito just kept phasing and didn't show anything or let any trace in both encounters with Kakashi's team, he didn't engage them. He just kept phasing around. 

This will be my last answer


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 16, 2017)

Minato still too fast for him. 
Minato have better knowledge
Summons are too much and too big for Kakashi.. They're gonna force his kamui or raiton beast.. And these are gonna drain him. 

He still has rasengan, great shunshin, clone feints, kage level cqc, giant summons, seals, barriers (due to toads), he is a great sensor too.

And Hirashin is pretty valuable jutsu in narutoverse. Its not meant to be the cure for chars like Kakashi ... Its gonna be needed guys like Pain, Bee, Mid-High Kages, Itachi, Obito, Jiraiya etc. 

So he dont need his FTG for Kakashi. 3T Kakashi speedblitzed by Kakuzu's tendrills. So Minato's clone shunshin would be blitz MS Kakashi. 
______________________________________________


Baroxio said:


> How is Minato smarter than Kakashi, again


Which feat of Kakashi's make him smarter than Minato (maybe a little but not much for the talk about it) 

Off course Kakashi has more showcase he is one of the main characters. But due to portrayal and few but golden feats, Minato is damn smart too. They're in the same tier in terms of intelligence ı think.  ( ımo Minato slightly smarter and mentally more balanced too)
_______________________________________________

Due to portrayal and feats ; Minato > Bee > Taka >>> MS Kakashi..
taking FTG from him is not gonna turn to MS Kakashi >> Minato ?!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's trivial, what's crucial here is if Kakashi can react to Minato and Minato can react to Kakashi. Both can do so, but Kakashi has a significant advantage with the Sharingan, so he can react to his attacks more meticulously and with greater precision


Both can do so, but considering minato has teh edge inboth movement speed and reaction speed, kakashi has difficulty compensating for that edge, even with sharingan as even with that eye his reaction speed is still lower than minatos, and he is at a speed disadvantage to begin with.




UchihaX28 said:


> But hey, why am I substantiating my claim when you have failed to provide a grounded argument that shows Minato's reflexes exceeds Kakashi's by a considerable degree.


Pardon me if i assumed you had read the manga...

Minato managed a physical reaction against V2 A, which is more than MS sasuke could do with sharingan precog

V2 A is far faster than anything kakashi has ever reacted to, minato reacted to that speed, nuff said.

Minato>kakashi in reactions



UchihaX28 said:


> The Gama Trio are burdensome if Minato engages Kakashi in CQC. If he disengages, Kakashi simply skewers the Toads with Raiden


The toads jump...cuz they are toads...and murder kakashi with suiton bullets the size of a bijus head

Raiden is also a taxing technique, as kakashi states himself, if he is at all winded he worries about using it at all, considering its 2 raikiris + a KB its easy to see why kakashi isnt cool with it.

As soon as those summons come out, regardless of how the fight was going beforehand, kakashi is done, end of story. They are minatos trump card here that kakashi cant deal with.


UchihaX28 said:


> Minato has something to suggest he's more dexterous than Kakashi is. On the contrary, there's nothing indicating that Minato is experienced in Taijutsu while Kakashi has garnered a 4.5 in Part 1


I dont put much stock in DB stats...they are widely inconsistent and unreliable, might as well say "kakashi is over 9000 in taijutsu" and call it a day, has the same affect on an argument.


UchihaX28 said:


> We're not referencing speed and reactions (which you consistently surmise)


Im not saying that due to minatos speed advantage, he will decimate in h2h, which *you* consistently surmise, its not as if im repeatedly stating kakashi is gonna get lol blitzed in taijutsu, im merely stating that a speed edge for minato helps in cqc.


UchihaX28 said:


> Minato has superior reactions to Base Gai, but he's not defeating Base Gai in Taijutsu.


Same is true of kakashi honestly


UchihaX28 said:


> sensing alone doesn't allow you to discern clones.


Minatos can...as shown in the scan i posted...


UchihaX28 said:


> Sharingan is explicitly stated to be intrinsic and instrumental in deciphering clones, so they're largely irrelevant for Kakashi.


Sasuke is referencing the fact he had LoS on bee the whole time, meaning he would have seen him weave the signs or otherwise prep a feint using sharingan as bees main body didnt escape his FoV, he didnt realize at the time bee could sub himself with a body part that wasnt in sauskes FoV, thats why the feint was successful.

If minato breaks LoS, he is just as capable of hoodwinking kakashi as bee hoodwinked sasuke, the same isnt true for kakasshi tho, as when/if he escapes LoS, minato could simply sense him out, and pick up a clones and the originals chakra, making feinting very difficult.


UchihaX28 said:


> So Minato can scrutinize even the most minuscule of movements well before the opponent can move? This is the advantage Kakashi possesses and Kakashi can actively use this advantage for every single muscle tension made by Minato. He has the advantage in analysis.


This is true, minato cant do that, but being able to discern individual muscle tension and movements doesnt really help one win a fight or plan a grand strategy, its also never even hinted at to be a major part of the sharingans abilities, and is certainly not the game changer you seem to be making it out to be.

Especially not when his opponent is just as strategically and analytically sound if not more so.


UchihaX28 said:


> Shut up, let me know when Minato has blitzed a Sharingan User without FTG.


Doesnt make it any less off topic fam

Let me know when itachi has shunshined across an entire village in an instant



UchihaX28 said:


> No it's not because the same argument you've used can be applied to other characters such as Itachi who have demonstrated superior speed feats yet you treat them contemptuously. This is a massive double standard.


The only argument ive put forth regarding minatos speed is that it gives him an innate advantage over kakashi in aspects of combat, *thats it*. Bringing up itachi and how he blitzed so and so or their freaking grandmother is the definition of irrelevant as i havent made the claim kakashi will get blitzed, merely that he as at a speed disadvantage.

Theres no double standard, anyone better than kakashi in speed and reactions has the same advantages over him in combat that im proposing, and i havent claimed otherwise, i merely claimed that minato is within that demographic and is afforded such advantages.

Wheres the double standard?


UchihaX28 said:


> I'm very chill.


You really dont seem like it, but moving on


UchihaX28 said:


> Arguing semantics because I already highlighted the situations where the Sharingan would blunder.


Its not semantics...sharingan doesnt allow one to blatantly ignore their opponents edge in speed and reactions, it merely closes the gap, thats all



UchihaX28 said:


> All of these are imprudent claims that you have failed to substantiate, so I won't address this until you've actually provided substance for such claims.


Nothing unsubstantiated about minato being...

>kakashi in speed
>kakashi in reactions

Especially not if you read the manga

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 16, 2017)

Kakashi put the Sannin on a pedestal and Jiraiya himself admits complete inferiority to Minato. Yondaime Hokage has too much hype, with or without Hiraishin

Minato would likely be put on the defensive by Kakashi's mastery of the elements, but he's a pretty intuitive guy. I think he'd eventually formulate a decent plan to somehow get in close and either Rasengan him or carve him up with a kunai


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Space time jutsu = realized like Minato did after seeing it.


Sure



oetsuthebest said:


> Phases through = Easy to realize


Not according to kakashi and yamato, by the FKS arc* after already seeing obito phase several times* he and yamato still didnt know for certain what exactly he was doing

Minato figured it out after a single attack.



oetsuthebest said:


> Materializes before pulling in = Minato realized it by direct contact with Obito, when he grabbed his hand and tried to pull him in combat. Kakashi figured that out too, without experiencing it in first place.


Sure, they both figured that out



oetsuthebest said:


> The fact he saw Obito more times than Minato means nothing.


Wow...



oetsuthebest said:


> Obito just kept phasing


Which gave kakashi more instances to observe the technique in action and thus cull more information...

Whats hard to understand about that?



oetsuthebest said:


> This will be my last answer


Cool


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

Minato , the black dude , is giving Kakashi the lube , cuz this is a rape tonight 

Struggle arguments are always pretty fun to read , mainly because they are just , well , struggle arguments . Ain't that so @UchihaX28 ??? 
I mean c'mon , do the people that are vouching for Kakashi in this thread read the manga and make sure it agrees with what they say ? cuz it seems like the people arguing for Kakashi , are just arguing to argue .

OT : Minato clowns him and sends him back to the academy .
CQC , Kakashi is getting one shotted no questions asked , Minato is superior to him in all terms of speed , be it a body flicker , reaction speed , striking speed , or w/e . Minato's body flicker is enuff to outspeed full Kurama's palm strike from a point blank distance and jump away before the beast could finish off his blow . Not even Obito's Sharingan could follow .
This the same beast that at full power was too fast for war arc SM Naruto .
Kakashi can't touch Minato , that's his biggest problem , nor does he have the AoE to catch him with any of his attack .
Minato's Rasengan is superior to Kakashi's Raikiri , his clones are superior , his chakra reserves are superior , and he has sensing under his belt .

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

I didn't even talk about Summons ck

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh boy...
> 
> Im not getting into that BS with you again
> 
> Minato wasnt moving at full speed there cuz if he was kakashi wouldnt have had time to form a conscious thought as KCM>>>>>anything kakashi has ever demonstrated, and its hardly impressive to halt your movement abruptly like that when you have barely taken a single step forward.



You don't need to move a single meter to show that you are superior to someone in reactions and combat speed.

In this instance Minato got lol blitzed by Madara without moving a single step.

What that scene shows is him being equal to his combat and reactions with KCM.

Saying that Minato>>>>kakashi in reactions is laughable and doesn't make it any more real when manga shows otherwise.

If that was the case, Minato would have done the same that Madara did to him to Zetsu before Kakashi realized what was going on.

Without mentioning Bee having no issue reacting to him either.

Minato's greates advantage is the element of surprise when he teleports behind opponents and they aren't expecting so or have no knowledge on his jutsu. That Mininal delay of confusion is what gives him the edge.



> Dont know if youre aware of this...but minatos summons are toads...they can jump raiden easily and then shower kakashi with water bullets. Kakashi then gets pasted.



Kakashi can't jump now? Summons speed is hardly a problem considering pain was dancing around them and Kakashi was going up against the gedo.



> None that make a massive difference


Neither is it for Minato so why bring it up?



> Baseless? Really?
> 
> You really gonna sit there and try to substantiate the fact that raikiri=odama level rasengan? Really?
> 
> Kay fam...



You never said Odama. 

Minato also never showed Odama rasengan.

So still baseless.



> I think you have a weird misconception on kakashis abilities...
> 
> The man doesnt have the stamina to spew out ninjutsu left right and center like you claim he can, and if he tried hes gonna defeat himself



If he had the stamina to do 6+ raikiri and 3 Kamui including a Gedo head sized one before needing a recharge, I'm sure he has enough for a couple dozen jutsu all which are much less taxing than Raikiri and Kamui without mentioning the water tech bonus.



> Ive also already stated his ninjutsu advantage is helpful at ranged combat and its for sure an advantage, but its a double edged sword as he cant keep it up for long, itd also be difficult to hit a target as fast as minato with most techs.



Keeping it up for long in the water won't be a problem as addressed above. Minato is going to be pressured all the time and anything he tries up close Kakashi has techniques to deal with such as water wall, water dragon bullet, the tech that murked zabuza a mile into the woods etc.



> That was also before the bad guy pulled out any clones fam, minato detected and diffirentiated between the clones, kakashi detected a lone opponent. Kakashi has never demonstrated sensory abilities iirc, and it isnt hinted that he sensed his opponent there, knowing kakashi, he likely smelled his opponent, as it was pointed out he had that ability in gaiden.
> 
> I didnt say he has no chance at feinting, i said itd be difficult, and that feints go both ways
> 
> Its just minato has crazy sensory abilities that allow him to better defend against clone feints



Lol Minato can't differenciate between shadow clones and the real one. Stated multiple times in the manga and not even sharingan can.

Minato and Kakashi both initially detected one opponent and then he made the clones. It's pretty obvious if they had a single enemy on their range and suddenly 10 more popped out the same spot, it would be clones.Nothing suggest that Kakashi didn't detect the others.

Not only that but Minato has never been shown to use Clones on the same level as Kakashi(not that he is not smart enough to do so) but is just not how he normally battles so I'm pretty sure Kakashi has the edge in that department.

Look I agree that Minato has a slight speed advantage and summonings(which knowing him and manga portrayal of every summoning that has ever been used) probably won't come into play right away, but Kakashi easily takes it in the Ninjutsu department and they seem about tied in cqc.

This is my criteria for saying it would be close and could go either way like I said in my first post. Stating that either one would have a massive advantage over the other taking everything into account would be far fetched.

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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Both can do so, but considering minato has teh edge inboth movement speed and reaction speed, kakashi has difficulty compensating for that edge, even with sharingan as even with that eye his reaction speed is still lower than minatos, and he is at a speed disadvantage to begin with.



That's largely irrelevant. Why should I care if Minato's mental perception exceeds Kakashi's when both can react to each-other perfectly fine? You haven't addressed this nor have you acknowledged that the Sharingan's meticulous perception sill provide Kakashi with an instrumental advantage in this match-up.

Refer back to Sasuke vs. Raikage where V1 Raikage was outmaneuvered despite possessing greater reaction speed than Minato.



> Pardon me if i assumed you had read the manga...
> 
> Minato managed a physical reaction against V2 A, which is more than MS sasuke could do with sharingan precog
> 
> ...



This only proves that Minato's physical reaction speed is higher which we all agree with nor does it account that MS Sasuke was forced to react to V2 Raikage's speed in a centripetal motion which is something the Sharingan isn't tailored for.

Nonetheless, we agree that Minato's physical reaction speed is higher, but can you prove how his reaction speed alone is enough to circumvent the Sharingan? You can't and this is the crux of your argument here.



> The toads jump...cuz they are toads...and murder kakashi with suiton bullets the size of a bijus head
> 
> Raiden is also a taxing technique, as kakashi states himself, if he is at all winded he worries about using it at all, considering its 2 raikiris + a KB its easy to see why kakashi isnt cool with it.
> 
> As soon as those summons come out, regardless of how the fight was going beforehand, kakashi is done, end of story. They are minatos trump card here that kakashi cant deal with.



Sorta like how they pulled it off against Pain? Kakashi would easily close the distance between him and the Toads as Pain did effortlessly and skewer their legs off.

I agree that Raiden is taxing, but analyze the premise of the situation. Kakashi's not only forced to battle Bijuu / V2 Jins, but eventually Obito and the Mazo as well. Then, he has to exhaust himself even further with Kamui. Under these circumstances, Raiden would certainly be a strenuous task if he wants to preserve chakra, bit that's not the case here. He's utilized Raiden continuously against the V2 Jin and the Gedo Mazo, so there's honestly no reason why using Raiden would be problematic here, especially when he only has to battle Minato.



> I dont put much stock in DB stats...they are widely inconsistent and unreliable, might as well say "kakashi is over 9000 in taijutsu" and call it a day, has the same affect on an argument.



You should because they're Kishimoto's interpretation of a shinobi's abilities, but keep ignoring how Kakashi's consistently dueled with a Taijutsu Master. Everything points towards Kakashi being well deserving of a 4.5.



> Im not saying that due to minatos speed advantage, he will decimate in h2h, which *you* consistently surmise, its not as if im repeatedly stating kakashi is gonna get lol blitzed in taijutsu, im merely stating that a speed edge for minato helps in cqc.



The issue is you act as if it circumvents the Sharingan and with absolutely no demonstration of dexterity in CQC, I'm presuming that you believe Minato would blitz Kakashi or has enough of a speed advantage to mitigate the Sharingan. The only way this would actually happen is if the user was Raikage or someone as unpredictable and proficient in Taijutsu as Gai is.

Speed certainly helps, but it's not the only thing that helps against a Sharingan User and we witnessed that numerous times including V1 Raikage vs. Sasuke.



> Same is true of kakashi honestly



That's an illustration of how Taijutsu can mitigate speed disparity, so you clearly missed the point.



> Minatos can...as shown in the scan i posted...



You presented no scan, nor have you managed to provide examples of Minato being a proficient sensor.



> Sasuke is referencing the fact he had LoS on bee the whole time, meaning he would have seen him weave the signs or otherwise prep a feint using sharingan as bees main body didnt escape his FoV, he didnt realize at the time bee could sub himself with a body part that wasnt in sauskes FoV, thats why the feint was successful.
> 
> If minato breaks LoS, he is just as capable of hoodwinking kakashi as bee hoodwinked sasuke, the same isnt true for kakasshi tho, as when/if he escapes LoS, minato could simply sense him out, and pick up a clones and the originals chakra, making feinting very difficult.



Great, this is just a verbose response that circles around to the fact that the Sharingan is intrinsically good against bunshins in general.

This is egregiously vague. How does Minato "break" his LoS?



> This is true, minato cant do that, but* being able to discern individual muscle tension and movements doesnt really help one win a fight or plan a grand strategy*, its also never even hinted at to be a major part of the sharingans abilities, and is certainly not the game changer you seem to be making it out to be.
> 
> Especially not when his opponent is just as strategically and analytically sound if not more so.



*Not a game changer.

Yet this was illustrated in Sasuke vs. Orochimaru, Sasuke vs. KN0 Naruto, Sasuke vs. Deidara, Kakashi vs. Kakuzu, Itachi vs. Nagato, and Itachi vs. Kabuto.

Yes, it's been shown to be instrumentally superb in combat and I'm not sure how you're arguing against the notion that perspicaciously analyzing every attack * before it even happens * is not advantageous for someone as decisive as Kakashi.

"Never even hinted to be a major part of the Sharingan's abilities"

Yet Kishimoto gave us such a bold illustration of it and enabled Sasuke to turn the tides in his battle against KN0 Naruto.



> Doesnt make it any less off topic fam
> 
> Let me know when itachi has shunshined across an entire village in an instant



His Shunshin hasn't blitzed a Sharingan User nor is that a demonstration of Reaction Speed which is more instrumental for CQC than Shunshin is.

So again, show me a scan of Minato blitzing a Sharingan User, Rinnegan User, and Perfect Sage. If not, then we all know you're biased as hell towards Minato.



> The only argument ive put forth regarding minatos speed is that it gives him an innate advantage over kakashi in aspects of combat, *thats it*. Bringing up itachi and how he blitzed so and so or their freaking grandmother is the definition of irrelevant as i havent made the claim kakashi will get blitzed, merely that he as at a speed disadvantage.
> 
> Theres no double standard, anyone better than kakashi in speed and reactions has the same advantages over him in combat that im proposing, and i havent claimed otherwise, i merely claimed that minato is within that demographic and is afforded such advantages.
> 
> ...



Superfluous, so I will explain this briefly.

* You have not proven how Minato's speed would overcome the Sharingan. * Speed is obviously intrinsic to CQC, but is Minato speed enough for it to be * instrumental * in CQC? This is something you have failed to substantiate and you haven't provided any examples of how this would be the case. Unless Minato's as sharp as Gai is in CQC, his speed alone won't suffice.



> Nothing unsubstantiated about minato being...
> 
> >kakashi in speed
> >kakashi in reactions
> ...



No shit, he is physically faster, but how is that going to suffice in circumventing the Sharingan? This is something you haven't explained and derisively referring me back to the manga isn't going to discredit that.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Minato , the black dude , is giving Kakashi the lube , cuz this is a rape tonight
> 
> Struggle arguments are always pretty fun to read , mainly because they are just , well , struggle arguments . Ain't that so @UchihaX28 ???
> I mean c'mon , do the people that are vouching for Kakashi in this thread read the manga and make sure it agrees with what they say ? cuz it seems like the people arguing for Kakashi , are just arguing to argue.


 
 Arguing to argue? No.

 This dude literally believes Minato is above Kakashi in every aspect of combat which is entirely false.

 Actually, I'm baffled as to why I didn't mention that Minato had no counter to Sharingan Genjutsu.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Saying that Minato>>>>kakashi in reactions is laughable




Show me kakashi reacting to a point blank kamui warp with no knowledge, TSBs, fifth step of sekizo, or V2 A's top speed and then ill let you say its laughable.

Until then, minato wipes his ass with kakashis reaction time.

Id rather go with the canon we are repeatedly shown than cling to an outlier interception feat, but to each their own i suppose.

And the canon we are repeatedly shown puts minatos reactions on a crazy level, only surpassed by people who are out of his tier in every other way. Kakashi hasnt shown comparable reaction times ever.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kakashi can't jump now?


Think about this one fam....*really think about it...*

Kakahsi is gonna jump high enough to catch a toad boss summon who can leap entire battlefields in a single bound?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> You never said Odama.
> 
> Minato also never showed Odama rasengan.
> 
> So still baseless.


Really? You ever look at minatos base rasengan? You ever notice how its massive compared to every other base rasengan?

His base rasengan is damn near odama level and far above the normal rasengan which has stalemated raikiri/chidori too many times to count.

Its bbasic math at that point to deduce whats stronger between minatos rasengan and a raikiri

Minatos rasengan>Narutos rasengan>=Chidori/raikiri


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lol Minato can't differenciate between shadow clones and the real one. Stated multiple times in the manga and not even sharingan can


The fact that the sharingan can or cannot is irrelevant when minato has been shown on panel sensing the difference between 20 people out of sight, and 1 dude with 19 clones out of sight.

It happened, ive shown the scan, saying minato cant do something he was explicitly shown doing isnt worth addressing.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Minato and Kakashi both initially detected one opponent and then he made the clones.


And minato detected the clones, he specifically said they were clones despite never clapping eyes on their opponent because he sensed them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> This dude literally believes Minato is above Kakashi in every aspect of combat which is entirely false.


If by "this dude" you are referencing me its good to know you havent been reading anything i posted, cuz i never claimed this.

I claimed minato was above kakashi in speed, reactions, DC, reserves, and intellect, and the latter only by a little.

I also said that his speed/reaction edge helps him in several other categories such as h2h...which should be blatantly obvious...

You just keep twisting my words and making it sound like im saying minato destroys him or something, which i havent done.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> This dude literally believes Minato is above Kakashi in every aspect of combat which is entirely false.


But he is , at least , Minato is superior to Kakashi where in matters the most , sure Kakashi has more versatility , but that's irrelevant because he is lacking in both :
- AoE .
- Speed .


UchihaX28 said:


> Actually, I'm baffled as to why I didn't mention that Minato had no counter to Sharingan Genjutsu.


Probably because it's featless , or rather , it's best feat is defeating mere fodders .
Not to mention , Minato can use clones , genjutsu doesn't work on them .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Refer back to Sasuke vs. Raikage where V1 Raikage was outmaneuvered despite possessing greater reaction speed than Minato.


The raikage doesnt have better reactions than minato...thats completely incorrect and contradicts canon material...



UchihaX28 said:


> This only proves that Minato's physical reaction speed is higher which we all agree with nor does it account that MS Sasuke was forced to react to V2 Raikage's speed in a centripetal motion which is something the Sharingan isn't tailored for.


Yes...his physical reaction speed is higher than kakashis...which gives him an edge over kakashi as even with teh sharingan minato can still process information and counter it better than kakashi can...

Ive stated this many, many times

What are you not getting?



UchihaX28 said:


> Nonetheless, we agree that Minato's physical reaction speed is higher, but can you prove how his reaction speed alone is enough to circumvent the Sharingan?


It outperforms the sharingan in everything bar attention to detail...And thus allows minato to more than compete with it in battle



UchihaX28 said:


> Sorta like how they pulled it off against Pain?


Pain used an omni directional gravitational shockwave...kakashi is running at the toads with a jump rope...theres a difference



UchihaX28 said:


> You should because they're Kishimoto's interpretation of a shinobi's abilities, but keep ignoring how Kakashi's consistently dueled with a Taijutsu Master. Everything points towards Kakashi being well deserving of a 4.5.


I shouldnt because they are Bullshit and stupidly inconsistent...

Unless you believe that old hiruzen would murder kakashi in a taijutsu fight or freaking part 1 neji would manage a draw with him of course...

Just to name a few BS aspects.

They are also not written by kishi, but supervised by him iirc, meaning he just drops by the office every other day to check on the people writing this nonsense and say "hey decent job guys" and then peace it.

DB stats are gross and should be taken with literal boat loads of salt.


UchihaX28 said:


> The issue is you act as if it circumvents the Sharingan and with absolutely no demonstration of dexterity in CQC


Addressed


UchihaX28 said:


> You presented no scan,


Well maybe i didnt use the scan in a direct response towards you...but there are 3 others in this thread who are on team kakashi and keep addressing me, its hard to keep track of what i sent to who, either way, here ya go


WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato has sensing that can distinguish between KBs, eliminating a big part of kakashis playbook.






UchihaX28 said:


> Great, this is just a verbose response that circles around to the fact that the Sharingan is intrinsically good against bunshins in general.


Only if yiu completely ignore context...but okay...



UchihaX28 said:


> This is egregiously vague. How does Minato "break" his LoS?


Literally however the hell he wants? Behind a tree, under water, a rock, get behind him, smoke bomb, its naruto fam, people do this shit all the damn time.



UchihaX28 said:


> So again, show me a scan of Minato blitzing a Sharingan User, Rinnegan User, and Perfect Sage. *If not, then we all know you're biased as hell towards Minato*.


No one here is biased, me being biased would be me claiming minato, and only minato can blitz kakashis sharingan cuz its minato...which is blatantly not what i said if you even read my post at all


WorldsStrongest said:


> The only argument ive put forth regarding minatos speed is that it gives him an innate advantage over kakashi in aspects of combat, *thats it*. Bringing up itachi and how he blitzed so and so or their freaking grandmother is the definition of irrelevant as i havent made the claim kakashi will get blitzed, merely that he as at a speed disadvantage.
> 
> Theres no double standard, *anyone better than kakashi in speed and reactions has the same advantages over him in combat that im proposing, and i havent claimed otherwise, i merely claimed that minato is within that demographic and is afforded such advantages.*






UchihaX28 said:


> You have not proven how Minato's speed would overcome the Sharingan.


Its not gonna overcome it, but it more than allows him to compete, thats my point.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Show me kakashi reacting to a point blank kamui warp with no knowledge, TSBs, fifth step of sekizo, or V2 A's top speed and then ill let you say its laughable.
> 
> Until then, minato wipes his ass with kakashis reaction time.



He had no issue warping away Madara's shield before Gai got to him.

Neither did he have issues fighting a stronger version of the V2 jins that were giving Bee trouble, the same Bee that Made Minato's blitz attempt look like a novice.



> Id rather go with the canon we are repeatedly shown than cling to an outlier interception feat, but to each their own i suppose.
> 
> And the canon we are repeatedly shown puts minatos reactions on a crazy level, only surpassed by people who are out of his tier in every other way. Kakashi hasnt shown comparable reaction times ever.



Canon showed us them being in the same tier reaction wise. That's all there is to it.

lol at outlier interception feat.



> Think about this one fam....*really think about it...*
> 
> Kakahsi is gonna jump high enough to catch a toad boss summon who can leap entire battlefields in a single bound?



Boss summons jump around and fly away while never coming back down?



> Really? You ever look at minatos base rasengan? You ever notice how its massive compared to every other base rasengan?
> 
> His base rasengan is damn near odama level and far above the normal rasengan which has stalemated raikiri/chidori too many times to count.
> 
> ...



Looks slightly bigger than part 1 Naruto's. Very impressive indeed.

Also pointless to this discussion as if either the rasengan or raikiri hits, both are done for. There won't be any clashing around.



> The fact that the sharingan can or cannot is irrelevant when minato has been shown on panel sensing the difference between 20 people out of sight, and 1 dude with 19 clones out of sight.
> 
> It happened, ive shown the scan, saying minato cant do something he was explicitly shown doing isnt worth addressing.
> 
> And minato detected the clones, he specifically said they were clones despite never clapping eyes on their opponent because he sensed them.



Nothing special about this feat when Kakashi did the exact same thing in the exact same panel you just posted. He said they were most likely clones, not once did he pinpoint who the clone was so no he can't tell them apart.


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

Ah i see , so you got dislikes and no counter ??
Such a dick-ish move, Uchiha .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> the same Bee that Made Minato's blitz attempt look like a novice.


Cool, except this outright aint what happened, but apparently where minatos feats are concerned whats blatantly shown to the audience doesnt count for some reason, to the point basic manga facts need to be revisited to prove minatos feats have weight.

Minato blitzed A, and then he blitzed Bee, Bee never reacted until after minato had verbally announced his arrival.

Nice try tho.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Canon showed us them being in the same tier reaction wise. That's all there is to it.


Not even close. V2 A would rip kakashi in half before he could even blink, let alone form a thought and attempt a physical movement.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> lol at outlier interception feat.


It is hilarious how its considered to hold any water isnt it?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Boss summons jump around and fly away while never coming back down?


Did you miss the other half of this argument? Where the toad jumps and murders kakashi witha suiton bullet? Cuz i posted it already...2 or 3 times...


WorldsStrongest said:


> As far as i can tell, kakashis only advantage is his range, but even that is eliminated when minato calls out bunta and has him spam near biju sized water bullets to murder kakashi.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know if youre aware of this...but minatos summons are toads...they can jump raiden easily and then shower kakashi with water bullets. Kakashi then gets pasted.





WorldsStrongest said:


> The toads jump...cuz they are toads...and murder kakashi with suiton bullets the size of a bijus head



Starting to think you havent read my posts very thoroughly...


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Looks slightly bigger than part 1 Naruto's. Very impressive indeed.


Its the size of a human head, narutos base rasengan is the size of a childs rubber ball...

"slightly bigger"

Here is a size comparison...

Part 1 narutos base rasengan

Part 2 Narutos Odama rasengan

Minatos base rasengan



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Nothing special about this feat when Kakashi did the exact same thing in the exact same panel you just posted.


Except no he didnt...which i have addressed earlier...and you bring it up again for the lolz i guess...





WorldsStrongest said:


> That was also before the bad guy pulled out any clones fam, minato detected and diffirentiated between the clones, kakashi detected a lone opponent. Kakashi has never demonstrated sensory abilities iirc, and it isnt hinted that he sensed his opponent there, knowing kakashi, he likely smelled his opponent, as it was pointed out he had that ability in gaiden.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Ah i see , so you got dislikes and no counter ??
> Such a dick-ish move, Uchiha .



 I'm disliking because his claims are unsubstantiated. He resorts to such inane responses without telling me how he arove to that conclusion and then deliberately dismissed the evidence I presented that conveyed that Minato had inferior reaction speed.

 It's well deserving of a dislike.


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm disliking because his claims are unsubstantiated. He resorts to such inane responses without telling me how he arove to that conclusion and then deliberately dismissed the evidence I presented that conveyed that Minato had inferior reaction speed.
> 
> It's well deserving of a dislike.


He ? 
Brother you disliked MY post .


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> He ?
> Brother you disliked MY post .



 Because you're arguing just to argue and scorned me for disliking his post. It's completely pointless.


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## Android (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Because you're arguing just to argue and scorned me for disliking his post. It's completely pointless.


Dafuq ? 
I asked why _you_ disliked _my_ post , i never talked about him .
Either way , you ignored what i said , so i'll just take that you have nothing to say back to refute my points .


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm disliking because his claims are unsubstantiated.


Pot. Kettle.


UchihaX28 said:


> He resorts to such inane responses without telling me how he arove to that conclusion


Except no... Ive posted the same scans about half a dozen times on this page...thats far from unsubstantiated

Thats just people being intellectually dishonest and/or outright ignoring canon


UchihaX28 said:


> then deliberately dismissed the evidence I presented that conveyed that Minato had inferior reaction speed.


1. Ive addressed everything you have backed up
2. Minato doesnt have inferior reaction speed to kakashi and *you conceded that not that many posts ago*


UchihaX28 said:


> It's well deserving of a dislike.


Whatever floats your boat man


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The raikage doesnt have better reactions than minato...thats completely incorrect and contradicts canon material...



Minato was praised as the fastest which *includes Hiraishin*. All that's required is that he's physically quick enough to instigate Hiraishin which does not require him to be as reflexive as Raikage. That said, we're given an explicit statement that concludes that Raikage is unequivocally more reflexive than Minato:

Roshi using this jutsu



> Yes...his physical reaction speed is higher than kakashis...which gives him an edge over kakashi as even with teh sharingan minato can still process information and counter it better than kakashi can...
> 
> Ive stated this many, many times
> 
> What are you not getting?



Because you're arbitrarily throwing around the same vacuous claims without explaining how this is relevant.

Sasuke with an undeveloped Sharingan had very little issues reacting to the faster and more reflexive Haku, Sasuke with a 2T Sharingan had very little issue subduing the more reflexive Orochimaru due to the perspicacity of the Sharingan, and Sasuke had very little issue reacting to the more reflexive Raikage.

The shrewd and clairvoyant nature of the Sharingan had been illustrated to be an immense advantage even against more reflexive fighters, so there's literally no reason why it wouldn't be of any benefit in this battle.



> It outperforms the sharingan in everything bar attention to detail...And thus allows minato to more than compete with it in battle



That's not even proof.



> Pain used an omni directional gravitational shockwave...kakashi is running at the toads with a jump rope...theres a difference



And Pain was given the opportunity because he danced around the toads gracefully, no reason why Kakashi would be incapable of doing so. Kakashi also benefits from Sharingan Genjutsu.



> I shouldnt because they are Bullshit and stupidly inconsistent...
> 
> Unless you believe that old hiruzen would murder kakashi in a taijutsu fight or freaking part 1 neji would manage a draw with him of course...
> 
> ...



None of what you claimed is inconsistent and I have no idea what you're rambling about in regards to P1 Neji.

No, they were literally written by him and there certainly isn't a lack of cohesion given that much of the information including Character Biographies and Jutsu Profiles are largely consistent with what's presented in the manga.



> Addressed



You don't know what dexterity is then and no, you haven't given adequate proof on his reaction speed overcoming the Sharingan. Simply being faster isn't an appropriate answer.



> Well maybe i didnt use the scan in a direct response towards you...but there are 3 others in this thread who are on team kakashi and keep addressing me, its hard to keep track of what i sent to who, either way, here ya go



So he detected all of the clones, but this doesn't prove that he has clarity in situations where Kakashi duplicitously employs a bunshin feint.



> Only if yiu completely ignore context...but okay...



Context doesn't even discredit the notion.



> Literally however the hell he wants? Behind a tree, under water, a rock, get behind him, smoke bomb, its naruto fam, people do this shit all the damn time.



Smoke bombs are ineffective given that the Sharingan would simply detect Minato via chakra.

And what's Kakashi doing while all of this shit happens? 



> No one here is biased, me being biased would be me claiming minato, and only minato can blitz kakashis sharingan cuz its minato...which is blatantly not what i said if you even read my post at all



No, you're pretty much biased because you're giving Minato the benefit of the doubt that he can circumvent Kakashi's Sharingan without providing a coherent explanation as to why. This is biased and even if it is Minato, you need to be able to enunciate how he's going to do so rather than giving disjointed and repetitious responses.

Your quoted post is an explicit illustration of what I'm arguing about. How is Minato within that spectrum of speed? What examples can you provide that suggests he can blitz Kakashi's Sharingan? Why isn't the ability to scrutinize even the slightest movements suddenly not an advantage against Minato even though this has been instrumental in numerous different battles?



> Its not gonna overcome it, but it more than allows him to compete, thats my point.



Which is baseless.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I assume thats a joke...
> 
> 
> Kay its a joke


What feats does Base Minato have? I'll wait.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Nope, he knew it was S/T ninjutsu as he directly compared it to FTG in the uchiha bros arc.
> 
> Even sakura knew it was S/T jutsu or teleportation.


Intellect =/= How Minato performed in a situation.

Kakashi is older than MInato, therefore he is much more knowledgeable and has demonstrated multiple feats of strategy, tactics and analysis throughout the manga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Jan 16, 2017)

I'd favor Minato more times then not. Minato's Rasengan is pretty big on it's own and one hit from that is either gonna take out Kakashi or leave him in a bad enough state that Minato is gonna breeze right through to the end. With his base speed to dodge most(if not all) of Kakashi's ranged jutsu, clones of his own to help create openings, Gamabunta who in himself is a big problem for Kakashi if he starts using ninjutsu not to mention FCD would likely be the death of him as well as Bunta being able to cause some good distractions for Minato to go in for a good blow, then Minato has his sealing jutsu which could be used to potentially take out Kakashi, etc. Minato is still pretty fast and has better reactions then Kakashi so would the aid of his clones,summon(s), and sensing Minato should eventually land enough hits in one Kakashi before Kakashi can do him in.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 16, 2017)

Minato can't create an Odama Rasengan? Since when? The Rasengan he used against Obito was the same size as Naruto's Odama version. 

And then the Rasengan he casually created in the war arc was a decent bit larger than an Odama sized one
mandara no 

And don't give me some bullshit about living Minato not having enough chakra to do so when the dude was spamming Justu like crazy the night of the Kyuubi attack


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato can't create an Odama Rasengan? Since when? The Rasengan he used against Obito was the same size as Naruto's Odama version.
> 
> And then the Rasengan he casually created in the war arc was a decent bit larger than an Odama sized one
> mandara no
> ...



 It's obvious that he can. Even Base Naruto used one during the War Arc.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Minato was praised as the fastest which *includes Hiraishin*. All that's required is that he's physically quick enough to instigate Hiraishin which does not require him to be as reflexive as Raikage.


No...but the fact he can avoid the raikages top speed twice does...


UchihaX28 said:


> That said, we're given an explicit statement that concludes that Raikage is unequivocally more reflexive than Minato:


"Explicit statement"

"On par"

Try harder...

Also feats>statements

And minato has superior feats in the reaction department over the raikage



UchihaX28 said:


> The shrewd and clairvoyant nature of the Sharingan had been illustrated to be an immense advantage even against more reflexive fighters, so there's literally no reason why it wouldn't be of any benefit in this battle.


The sharingan allows its user to perceive and react to events they normally wouldnt be able to handle with their base reaction time via precog which is only helpful if ones body is fast enough to physically react to the information, thats is literally its only serious benefit bar genjutsu and mimicry.

Its an added boost to ones reaction speed essentially, and as ive said thrice to the power of thrice now...even with sharingan going for him, kakashi is still inferior by a decent margin in reactions.

Kakashi is also inferior in physical speed, so minato has a double whammy advantage in the category of speed due to a reaction and movement edge.

That is what allows him to compete with sharingan, he doesnt need to blitz it, he can simply deal with the fact kakahsi has it and still win...

That has been my point...since we went down this rabbit hole, i dont know how i can make it any clearer to you.

Minato dosnt need to blitz, but the sharingan doesnt give kakashi any edge over minato, it simply allows kakashi to not get annihilated and blitzed, im far from ignoring it. 

As without the sharingan i have no doubt kakashi would in fact get lolblitzed.



UchihaX28 said:


> That's not even proof.


What are you on about? Ive proved about half a dozen times minato has better reaction speed than sharingan users...



UchihaX28 said:


> And Pain was given the opportunity because he danced around the toads gracefully, no reason why Kakashi would be incapable of doing so.


Id hardly call what pain did dancing around, all he did was jump in the air to avoid their attacks and use ST.

Its also a different situation than im proposing, i proposed that the toas jump in the air and suiton bullet kaqkahsi into an early grave, wanna tell me how he deals with that?



UchihaX28 said:


> Kakashi also benefits from Sharingan Genjutsu.


Which hasnt shown to be worth a damn to anyone who isnt a fodder anbu...



UchihaX28 said:


> None of what you claimed is inconsistent and I have no idea what you're rambling about in regards to P1 Neji.


P1 nejis taijutsu score is 4.5...meaning hes equal with kakashi in taijutsu...which is a complete joke

Old hiruzen has a 5 in taijutsu...higher than even part 2 kakashis stat of 4.5...meaning hed win in h2h which is also hilarious

Kakashi has a 5 in hand seals, same score as itachi, and itachi was so fast with his seals kakashi couldnt follow a damn thing, yet they are in the same tier???

Kakashi has a 4 in genjutsu in part 1 with his best feat being knocking academy sakura on her ass...

Hence some of the many reasons why i view DBs as no more than fanfic, interesting to read, and a cool idea, but otherwise worthless when it comes to discussing canon due to a boat load of inconsistencies.





UchihaX28 said:


> You don't know what dexterity is then and no, you haven't given adequate proof on his reaction speed overcoming the Sharingan. Simply being faster isn't an appropriate answer.


Im not even touching this...if you seriously want me to freaking sit here and spoon feed you the same shit for the umpteenth time and expect it to stick, im just gonna politely decline.

First all my claims are "unsubstantiated" which is a blatant lie if you even glance at my posts, as you can see i rarely get through one without scans.

Now the problem is i dont have "adequate proof" implying ive proven my claims just not to your satisfaction, so which is it?

"Unsubstantiated" or inadequate proof?



UchihaX28 said:


> So he detected all of the clones, but this doesn't prove that he has clarity in situations where Kakashi duplicitously employs a bunshin feint.


The second kakahsi makes a KB minato could simply sense it and find the real kakashis hiding spot, and whereever the clone is as well, doesnt matter how duplicitous kakashi is about it, minato can detect him and his clones with a mere finger. 




UchihaX28 said:


> Context doesn't even discredit the notion.


Sure



UchihaX28 said:


> Smoke bombs are ineffective given that the Sharingan would simply detect Minato via chakra.
> 
> And what's Kakashi doing while all of this shit happens?


Congrats, you foiled one of the many plans i put forth off the top of my head.

The entire point of that was that there are oodles of methods of breaking LoS, made even easier with minatos speed advantage as he could get distance laughably easily.



UchihaX28 said:


> No, you're pretty much biased because you're giving Minato the benefit of the doubt that he can circumvent Kakashi's Sharingan without providing a coherent explanation as to why.


I never said circumvent dude, stop putting words in my mouth.

I said COMPETE

And i said it about half a dozen times now

Minato has better reactions than the sharingan, thats why he can compete.

Short, sweet, and to the point.



UchihaX28 said:


> How is Minato within that spectrum of speed? What examples can you provide that suggests he can blitz Kakashi's Sharingan?


For the love of...

Dude...

Read this next sentence very carefully

*For the thousandth time...i have never...ever...claimed that minato could blitz with his base speed, all i have said is minatos speed and reactions are above kakashsi and as such he has advantages in aspects of combat.
*
But hey, if ya want instances of minatos base speed being impressive to a sharingan user, here ya go.

And again, only here is even more impressive as he outpaced 100% kuramas point blank attack with another human being in his arms, and his speed still merited praise from a sharingan user.



UchihaX28 said:


> Which is baseless.




Not even gonna bother with this roundabout nonsense anymore

Lets just agree to disagree and stop


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> What feats does Base Minato have? I'll wait.


You really want me to spoon feed you the panels that put minato above kakashi in base speed and reactions? 

Or can ya work that one out on your own?

Just in case ya cant....

Impressed a sharingan user.

Avoided a point blank attack from 100% kurama with another person in his arms, when 50% kurama was fast enough to give SM naruto a run for his money.

Cleared an entire village in an instant with shunshin.

Beat the other 3 hokage to the battlefield by a landslide, despite one of em being freaking tobirama.

Reacted to V2 A's top speed on panel twice.

Reacted to point blank kamui with no knowledge.

Reacted to Point Blank TSBs and gais 5th step of sekizo.



Ryuzaki said:


> Intellect =/= How Minato performed in a situation.
> 
> Kakashi is older than MInato, therefore he is much more knowledgeable and has demonstrated multiple feats of strategy, tactics and analysis throughout the manga.


What even is this logic? Kakashi is older therefore smarter? 

The fact is, minato deciphered all of kamuis mechanics from 2 exchanges and had a counter ready to go...

Kakashi needed at least 4 separate encounters and even after the first 3 he still didnt know how kamui worked. 

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Because its one of minatos feats? Im sure if kakashi swung at obito twice and had kamui totally figured out everyone would be all

"Oh look at those analytical skills, as expected of kakashi sensei"

And we wouldnt even be having this conversation

But when its minato...nah man...anyone could do that...neg diff easy mode

The yellow flash gets no love

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## hbcaptain (Jan 17, 2017)

@WorldsStrongest , don't lose your time just take a look on my signature and you will know that there is no point debating with UchihaX28 about Minato.
Someone who claims Minato (w FTG) would lose to 3T Kakashi...not even Raikiri dares to say such a nonsens.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 17, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The fact that the sharingan can or cannot is irrelevant when minato has been shown on panel sensing the difference between 20 people out of sight, and 1 dude with 19 clones out of sight.
> 
> It happened, ive shown the scan, saying minato cant do something he was explicitly shown doing isnt worth addressing.


I'll do it for ya 




__________________________________________

And about intelligence..

Gai performed his lifetime shows succesfully thanks to Minato's plan and Kakashi was also there too.
Kakashi maybe have more IQ than Minato (like Shikamaru have more than anyone but he is not usefull like Kakashi or Minato ? Or not good at improvization like Jiraiya, Bee or Tobirama, etc etc.

Minato has the tinniest trigger process on this series (in terms of normal ninjas/shinobies).. He act fast, think fast and solve fast.. And generally do these things with or w/o support..

Kakashi shows his magic when he had support. (Dont get me wrong ı think he is top 3 or at least top 5 material at intelligence department)

Choza & Choji and other ninjas against Pain
Team 8 and Shikamaru grand asistance against Kakuzu
Naruto and Gai asistance against Obito (thanks to he had the same eye with obito)
etc, etc, etc. He is good at make solutions from long observations.

But ı think Minato is more succesfull at improvization and big solutions in small amount of time.

His wife is dying, he has a new born son and his hometown tearing apart by strongest bijuu.. But he is still calm and able to solve who is (or work for) Tobi, what his ability and how he can find the fastest way to take him down.

After than that w/o a thought he split Kyuubi . And use shiki fujin to save his son and wife.
Creatin giant barrier, summon gerotora to give seal's key to Jiraiya.. He think everything.. And it was a gamble not well filtered tactic (like Kakashi's) but it goes well and give shape to naruto series. And his predictions come out right.

And when he ressurected with Edo Tensei.

We saw same tactics and mental abilities from him again.

In small amount of time. He understand how fast is lee, how fast is gai, how fast lee throw his kunai and how much goes long Madara's godo damas.. He is calculated all in small amount of time (The time that 8th Gai at middle of an attack).

And he save the day when he doesnt have any of his arms ?!

Do you remember how Kakashi was mentally down when he lost his sharingans ?! How he felt himself "a fifth/third wheel" ?

It didnt happened to Minato when he lost his both arms.. And when his son didnt wake up from his death ?! With those moralities and injures he was still able to being resourcefull. And still keep his mind very sharp.

Dont get me wrong.. in raw intelligence maybe Kakashi have more potential than Minato.. But with Mental Durability and far small trigger process... I think Minato is far more resourcefull man in terms of intelligence or tactics.

I didnt see nothing like that from kakashi. Minato good at plans both in terms of long time and small time. And he is also keep his mind clear no matter what happens.

So saying; "Kakashi is older" or "have more feats" is kinda pale in comprasion.

Reactions: Like 3


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> @WorldsStrongest , don't lose your time just take a look on my signature and you will know that there is no point debating with UchihaX28 about Minato.
> Someone who claims Minato (w FTG) would lose to 3T Kakashi...not even Raikiri dares to say such a nonsens.



 A lot of my opinions have changed, but if you keep sticking to such petulant pretense, then I will report you, so stop with the petty claims.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 17, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> @WorldsStrongest , don't lose your time just take a look on my signature and you will know that there is no point debating with UchihaX28 about Minato.
> Someone who claims Minato (w FTG) would lose to 3T Kakashi...not even Raikiri dares to say such a nonsens.


Id like to give @UchihaX28 the benefit of the doubt and say that quote was taken out of context, and he didnt mean that 3t kakashi could straight up beat minato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 17, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You really want me to spoon feed you the panels that put minato above kakashi in base speed and reactions?
> 
> Or can ya work that one out on your own?
> 
> ...


You are free to believe what you want, I'm not here to convince you otherwise, just pointing out where you are wrong or miscalculating.

The reasoning behind his intellect being greater than Minato is that Kakashi had more experience, more missions to establish his depth and has been around much longer than Minato. It's the same reason why I would rate Jiraiya above Itachi in terms of intellect despite Itachi being the more skillful shinobi. You're making an overarching generalization about a character based on a 1 vs. 1, i.e. Minato vs. Obito and you're only slab of evidence is that 'he figured it out quicker than Kakashi and co.' which is misleading given the circumstances. Anyone would be able to establish that he's a space/time user after seeing him in (two different locations) and having him follow you. 

Kakashi 'needing 4 different encounters' is also rather misleading because the usage of Kamui in front Kakashi was entirely different than what he was known to using. Minato's 'feat' isn't anything special because 2 Anbu were able  to counter it and actually snag Obito, if Kakashi had fought him on his own he would have made that realization as well. But to be fair, in nearly all instances before the war Obito never once took Kakashi seriously or never engaged him. Minato experienced the technique first hand, so that counts for something more than Kakashi who just saw some guy fade into the distance.


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## Blaze Release (Jan 17, 2017)

Skim reading through some of the posts it looks like a lot of people have Minato's use of summons has his main ways to victory; either through summoning a toad army or FCD.

I'm not convinced by either.

The first reason is that in most cases characters resort to summons to counter an opponent's summonings or aid them overcome some kind of huge obstacle. Otherwise they is no need to summon and with the mindset being IC. I do not see Minato summoning at all.

Secondly this myth about jiraya/minato summoning a toad army.
For a start this is Shima's feat, but more importantly we know that the bigger the size of the summoning the greater the chakra needed. If either jiraiya/minato was to summon a toad army it will considerable hamper their reserves to the point that i do not believe jiraiya would be able to invoke sm or minato to fight for a prolonged period of time (May also explain why he resorted to just one to fight the constant onslaught of pein's summoning spam). This is assuming they have the reserves for it in the first place.

Thirdly it always surprises me when people rely heavily on summonings as a means for victory for the character they back.
From what we have seen from the manga, the most useful and powerful summonings (excluding bijuu's) are the smaller one's. Shima, fukasaku, enma are far more powerful, stronger,  faster and superior in intellect than the likes of gamabunta, manda, etc, to the point where i do not believe any kage level opponent will have trouble evading any attack from these large summon's. If i remember correctly Deva path, who has no real noticeable feats/hype for reaction time or overall speed was easily dancing circles around the giant toad trio.

As for FCD. I do not believe any kage level opponent who usually have above average reaction time is going to get splattered by a falling toad from the sky. Any ninja worthy of being a kage level opponent should have the reaction to avoid this.

As for who wins this, it can go either way.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 17, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> Skim reading through some of the posts it looks like a lot of people have Minato's use of summons has his main ways to victory; either through summoning a toad army or FCD.
> 
> I'm not convinced by either.
> 
> ...


Reading through your post here, makes me wonder if you've ever come across Tsunade fans in the NBD.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 17, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> much longer


6 years is considered as much longer ?!

Experience is a fact but not entirely good enough to make you smarter.. Or acheiving at more mission ?.

Wİth this logic Danzo and Hiruzen must be the Einsteins of this series ?! . But Danzo fight like a stupid.

Jiraiya both better experience, better world around knowledge than Kakashi and he is has the most mission numbers to acheivied.. Can  you consider him more intellect than Kakashi ?! I dont think so.. So how WorldsStrongest were wrong and now you'rent ?

And funny thing is Kakashi only beat Minato (with a big gap that count as some superior experience ) at B Rank Mission ? Kakashi only have 3 more S Rank than Minato  And Minato beat Kakashi with some gap at A-Rank mission..

The gap between D and C level Missions are really narrow.

Before 4th Great War Arc

Kakashi saw and experienced 1 great ninja war.. And Minato is also too.

Since Minato become a Hokage when he was pretty young.. So after being Hokage, he didnt go to missions..

So Minato nearly at Kakashi's mission numbers in 20 years (10 years less than Kakashi). And both of them experienced one great ninja war ?!


So how Kakashi is "much" experienced than Minato ? And even if so, how this is directly make him more intellect than him ?!
________________
@Ablaze

We also didnt see any fight that Kakashi start out with a Kamui attack or finished with a Kamui attack  But all poster can easily try to assume this.

Jiraiya had 2 fights in series.. Once he was poisoned and at the other one location was not good for Gama Trio (actually Shima was there).

SM Jiraiya has reserves to do it. And Minato can summon Gamabunta and Gamabunta can summon another ?! .. These all logical, capable things to do by them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 19, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> 6 years is considered as much longer ?!
> 
> Experience is a fact but not entirely good enough to make you smarter.. Or acheiving at more mission ?.
> 
> ...


Minato died at 24
Kakashi at the start of War Arc was 31-32ish
7-8 years is a significant amount of time since Kakashi was a jounin at 10, so that's not 'C or D' missions, that's A or higher.
Hiruzen is already the Einstein of the manga, he knew every teachable technique in Konoha at some point.
Danzo isn't far behind as he controlled a whole organization.
WS and I are talking about knowledge-base not overall intellect.
But I don't need any more proof than Rikodo Sennin complimenting Kakashi.


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2017)

I kinda fuck with @WorldsStrongest in this thread. 

OT: Kakashi doesn't really have the means to win this. I honestly thought it was Kakashi with Kamui vs Minato without FTG. But seeing that they are both restricted??? I don't really see Kakashi having better reactions to War Arc Sage Naruto and we saw what Madara could do to him lmao. Minato would pressure the fuck outta Kakashi with sheer speed alone, and when you add in summonings he clearly has the edge. Elder Sages cling to his shoulder and they work Kakashi as a unit.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 20, 2017)

Minato is better than kakashi in nearly every way. Kakashi is getting beat at close combat and overwhelmed with clones. Kakashi can manage 2 shadow clones max, minato can use way more than that. Minato is a close combat fighter this battle will be purely taijutsu/kenjutsu based with some short ranged ninjutsu, this is where minato dominates. Minato has better reflexes, better striking speed, better movement speed, agility, and stamina. Kakashi is going to be pressured from the start and if he tries raikiri, minato is countering that with rasengan and kakashi is getting his arm blown off. Kakashi's versatility goes out the window due to minato's speed no different than when mifune stopped hanzos jutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 20, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi was a jounin at 10


This is even worst... Kakashi starts way earlier than Minato to assigned with A & S ranks missions.. And He has 20 year of jonin career... Still cant beat Minato in A RAnk missions and only have 3 more S Rank missions ?! 

Quality > Quantity




Ryuzaki said:


> was 31-32ish


 

32 ? He is at 30 ( as overall value)


Ryuzaki said:


> WS and I are talking about knowledge-base not overall intellect.






Ryuzaki said:


> The reasoning behind his *intellect* being greater than Minato is that Kakashi had more experience





Ryuzaki said:


> But I don't need any more proof than Rikodo Sennin complimenting Kakashi.


Stickin with happy ending PIS moment ha  Good job. He compliment to him in terms of being a guide (not some ıntellect monster)... And ıt was a so PIS moment cuz we all know Team 7 members powerfull cuz thanks to other people.. Nothin related to Kakashi  

It was Kakashi's moments gettin 2 MS, open a PS, fight with kaguya and compliment from RS .. Its a context.. Fan Service for the end of the series. 

IF you care about compliments that much  I'll remember this to you lately for other debates Sir


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im sorry?


 Like I agree with what you are saying.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Like I agree with what you are saying.


Fair enough haha


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

kakashi takes this. Minato fans really do overate minatos speed and underrate the sharingan
> the sharingan enabled taka sasuke to dodge v1 bee (minato is'nt faster than v1 bee)
> the sharingan enabled kid sasuke to fight and track and land attacks on naruto (who was faster than sasuke)
> the sharingan helped sasuke in tagging the raikage with chidori and many other examples of how the sharingan makes one fight characters waay faster than they are, and the difference between munato and kakashi is not even large enough, kakashi would definately have the upper hand in cqc
- kakashi is better at ninjutsu also
- kakashi is better at genjutsu and is likely oneshotting with genjutsu 
- kakashi has better clone usage feats (lightning clone/suiton clone)
- War arc kakashi fought for an extended period of time with his sharingan (no kamui means chakra taxing technique cuz thats what drained him basically in the war arc not sharingan)
- he can genjustu minatos summons or use raiden and usually summons are summoned for fighting larger targets

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 21, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> > the sharingan enabled taka sasuke to dodge v1 bee (minato is'nt faster than v1 bee)
> > the sharingan enabled kid sasuke to fight and track and land attacks on naruto (who was faster than sasuke)
> > the sharingan helped sasuke in tagging the raikage with chidori and many other examples of how the sharingan makes one fight characters waay faster than they are, and the difference between munato and kakashi is not even large enough, kakashi would definately have the upper hand in cqc


Sasuke's feats for Kakashi ?! Even kakashi's himself admitted how he pale in comprasion against a real uchiha in terms of sharingan usage.

And Sasuke not just some uchiha he is the ultimate one. 



uchihakil said:


> kakashi is better at genjutsu and is likely oneshotting with genjutsu


Senses, Clones, Summons, Sage Mode he has answers and Kakashi is not Itachi, Sasuke, Obito or Madara.

Plus if Minato decide to summon ma & pa.. Genjutsu majority goes to Minato.




uchihakil said:


> - kakashi has better clone usage feats (lightning clone/suiton clone)


Lightning clone drain so much chakra and Mizubunshin is not usefull as kagebunshin.. Plus kakashi has more appearance in manga.. Of course have more feats.. But also Shikamaru have more or even feats contrary to Minato.



uchihakil said:


> War arc kakashi fought for an extended period of time with his sharingan


One time replenished by Kyuubi one time by Naruto and one other by Obito .. And we're kinda talking about a arc even Hiashi was able to push juubi's paw and Hinata able to perform 64 palms.. So of course Kakashi cant just passed out due to sharingan like he did before ..



uchihakil said:


> kakashi is better at ninjutsu also


Odama Rasengan size rasengan or senpo rasengan >> Raikiri / Chidori
Better Summons
Better Sealing Jutsus
Barriers and Genjutsu due to Summons
FTG > Kamui

So basic doton, suiton and fire make Kakashi far better ?! 

Only thing that Kakashi is better in terms of ninjutsu is utilizing one element. Kakashi has some good element mastery over Minato thats right (with Raiton) but other wise he is not that high from him like you think.. And 3rd and 4th Databooks kinda gives 4 element to Minato (ım dont care non-manga elements but ı still want to notify it)




uchihakil said:


> he can genjustu minatos summons


  Why he never try against bijuus ?! Featless and baseless assumption..




uchihakil said:


> raiden


If he gonna charge on giant toad with them I dont think he is gonna do much to them plus Minato can use this chance to execute him with a rasengan. 




uchihakil said:


> Minato fans really do overate minatos speed and underrate the sharingan



Yeah when you're talk you're logical and right.. but when they're talked they're just overratin' fans  

You're the one using Sasuke's sharingan feats for Kakashi.. And claim that Kakashi should take out Bijuu tier summons with genjutsu. But somehow Minato overrated and sharingan underrated and you're the only legimit, truthfull & logical poster here  

Saying "Kakashi take this" just some experiment on "bending manga for Kakashi's behalf" .. Cuz portrayals, feats and general parameters just scream for Minato's victory over kakashi even w/o FTG.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 21, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> This is even worst... Kakashi starts way earlier than Minato to assigned with A & S ranks missions.. And He has 20 year of jonin career... Still cant beat Minato in A RAnk missions and only have 3 more S Rank missions ?!
> 
> Quality > Quantity


Kakashi went on more missions, quality/quantity means nothing since we don't have any information on the kinds of missions they went outside of the difficulty. Kakashi being a jounin at 10 means he had 20+ years to go on A-ranked or higher missions. Whereas Minato didn't have that luxury.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> 32 ? He is at 30 ( as overall value)


We're talking about War Arc Kakashi, he's 31.




JiraiyaFlash said:


> Stickin with happy ending PIS moment ha  Good job. He compliment to him in terms of being a guide (not some ıntellect monster)... And ıt was a so PIS moment cuz we all know Team 7 members powerfull cuz thanks to other people.. Nothin related to Kakashi
> 
> It was Kakashi's moments gettin 2 MS, open a PS, fight with kaguya and compliment from RS .. Its a context.. Fan Service for the end of the series.
> 
> IF you care about compliments that much  I'll remember this to you lately for other debates Sir


So it's PIS when I use an argument but you've been doing these last few pages isn't? Piss off.


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## Ayala (Jan 21, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Sasuke's feats for Kakashi ?! Even kakashi's himself admitted how he pale in comprasion against a real uchiha in terms of sharingan usage.
> 
> And Sasuke not just some uchiha he is the ultimate one.
> 
> ...



precog is precog dude, its obito's eye so he gets obito's sharingan precog, the rest is kakashi reflex, so dont gimme that he aint an uchiha crap, his sharingan does'nt give him less precog than obito's cuz its the same damn eye.

- well sorry for what kishi did in the war arc of kakashi fighting for an extended period of time with the sharingan, just cuz you dont like it does'nt mean its a feat he does'nt have, he has it, so deal with it

- and kakashi not being an uchiha also does'nt mean he sucks at genjutsu, he had a genjutsu battle with obito already, even if his genjutsu usage is not on par with the rest its still enough to beat minato or his summons (though i do agree is kinda out of character for him likewise minato summoning boss summons wighout fighting a large target)


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> > the sharingan enabled taka sasuke to dodge v1 bee (minato is'nt faster than v1 bee)



 To be fair, Minato would do the same. Minato is on par with MS users in terms of reactions overall and Sasuke easily evaded V1 Raikage whose speed trounces Bee's by his own affirmation. Minato would easily accomplish the same feat.

 I do agree that Minato's reactions are egregiously overestimated, but he's easily above V1 Bee. Even Sasuke whose strength faded after being tormented by Bee still somersaulted over Bee continuously before Bee could even move an inch. [1]


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> To be fair, Minato would do the same. Minato is on par with MS users in terms of reactions overall and Sasuke easily evaded V1 Raikage whose speed trounces Bee's by his own affirmation. Minato would easily accomplish the same feat.
> 
> I do agree that Minato's reactions are egregiously overestimated, but he's easily above V1 Bee. Even Sasuke whose strength faded after being tormented by Bee still somersaulted over Bee continuously before Bee could even move an inch. [1]



i'm not saying minato can't react to bee, what i'm saying is SHARINGAN aided sasuke in dodging v1 bee (v1 bee is faster than minato speedwise) if sharingan aided in tracking opponents faster than minato (v1 raikage/v1 bee) i dont see how minato who is slower is going to do jack to kakashi


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> i'm not saying minato can't react to bee, what i'm saying is SHARINGAN aided sasuke in dodging v1 bee (v1 bee is faster than minato speedwise) if sharingan aided in tracking opponents faster than minato (v1 raikage/v1 bee) i dont see how minato who is slower is going to do jack to kakashi



 That's the crux of the matter, V1 Bee isn't faster than Minato or even remotely close to Minato in speed.


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's the crux of the matter, V1 Bee isn't faster than Minato or even remotely close to Minato in speed.



lmao or really? really? when the slower bee countered minato after an ftg attack while in base, bee without any enhancements was already fast, and with enhancement is definately faster than minato w/o ftg ofcourse


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

or just throw a scan of a feat if you still disagree on why base minato is faster than v1 bee


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> lmao or really? really? when the slower bee countered minato after an ftg attack while in base, bee without any enhancements was already fast, and with enhancement is definately faster than minato w/o ftg ofcourse



 Bee was the only one who was scrupulously attentive to Minato's usage of FTG, so it's more probable that Bee anticipated it rather than intercepted Minato because of his speed. Bee is the same person who cannot overwhelm Kisame in speed and was overwhelmed by Base Sasuke's reactions.

 You keep proposing that Sasuke's Sharingan was the main reason he evaded V1 Bee yet ignore that his body easily maneuvered faster than V1 Bee's did. Am I supposed to believe the Sharingan is a necessity instrumental for Kakashi's victory when Sasuke's superior speed illustrates that they do not need the Sharingan to compete with Minato's speed in the first place? That seems rather contradictory if you're willing to agree with that.

 How fast do you think V1 Bee is relative to Raikage?


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## uchihakil (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Bee was the only one who was scrupulously attentive to Minato's usage of FTG, so it's more probable that Bee anticipated it rather than intercepted Minato because of his speed. Bee is the same person who cannot overwhelm Kisame in speed and was overwhelmed by Base Sasuke's reactions.
> 
> You keep proposing that Sasuke's Sharingan was the main reason he evaded V1 Bee yet ignore that his body easily maneuvered faster than V1 Bee's did. Am I supposed to believe the Sharingan is a necessity instrumental for Kakashi's victory when Sasuke's superior speed illustrates that they do not need the Sharingan to compete with Minato's speed in the first place? That seems rather contradictory if you're willing to agree with that.
> 
> How fast do you think V1 Bee is relative to Raikage?



actually when sasuke dodged v1 bee, sasuke's sharingan was zoomed in meaning the sharingan aided him in dodging that, and i'm gonna need proof of sasuke overwhelming bee in speed, as far as i'm concerned the opposite happened and dont even think for a second sasuke was faster than v1 bee he he dodged the attack, there was just no other way for him to dodge the attack without moving more than bee did, its a manga, it cant be 100% accurate, besides that fight clearly had bee dominating in speed why would he be slower in a faster mode????


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## Divell (Jan 21, 2017)

Kakashi wins with this many restrictions. Without them, he gets blitz.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 22, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cool, except this outright aint what happened, but apparently where minatos feats are concerned whats blatantly shown to the audience doesnt count for some reason, to the point basic manga facts need to be revisited to prove minatos feats have weight.



False. If you look at the panel Bee's hand is behind his back the moment Minato appeared.

He didn't even have a blade in hand before Minato teleported to him.

As if Minato was gonna let him pull out a blade out of his back right in front of his eyes that could have potentially killed him right?

Nice try though.



> Minato blitzed A, and then he blitzed Bee, Bee never reacted until after minato had verbally announced his arrival.
> 
> Nice try tho.



He didn't blitz shit, it was the opposite in fact, and the only way he had a chance at escaping was through FTG. Does Minato have that here?



> Not even close. V2 A would rip kakashi in half before he could even blink, let alone form a thought and attempt a physical movement.



Baseless and irrelevant considering Kakashi has shown comparable reactions on the same panel as Minato and without FTG Minato get's his head caved in as shown on panel.

So what's your point?



> Did you miss the other half of this argument? Where the toad jumps and murders kakashi witha suiton bullet? Cuz i posted it already...2 or 3 times...



So what is a water bullet that has no speed and destruction feats going to do to someone as fast as Kakashi that can just dodge them?



> Starting to think you havent read my posts very thoroughly...
> 
> Its the size of a human head, narutos base rasengan is the size of a childs rubber ball...
> 
> ...



If you look at your very own size comparison, you will see that Odama rasengan is about the size of several human heads, Minato's isn't.

Furthermore Naruto had to be in Kyuubi mode to use it, something Minato isn't able to.

(I could only find a spanish page, but if you translate the very last sentence, it states only Naruto can do it due to Kurama's chakra. 



> Except no he didnt...which i have addressed earlier...and you bring it up again for the lolz i guess...



Minato never differentiated between the original and clones. Something you cannot argue against as it has been stated multiple times that's not possible with shadow clones.

Minato and Kakashi both detected a Lone opponent and if 20 more suddenly popped out of thin air, it's very obvious it would be clones. What tells you Kakashi couldn't detect the other ones the same way he did the first one?

In fact, Kakashi was more impressive in that scene considering he detected him before Minato was able to. Minato has to stop and touch the ground to do so. Not something that could be convenient during a battle with Kakashi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> actually when sasuke dodged v1 bee, sasuke's sharingan was zoomed in meaning the sharingan aided him in dodging that, and i'm gonna need proof of sasuke overwhelming bee in speed, as far as i'm concerned the opposite happened and dont even think for a second sasuke was faster than v1 bee he he dodged the attack, there was just no other way for him to dodge the attack without moving more than bee did, its a manga, it cant be 100% accurate, besides that fight clearly had bee dominating in speed why would he be slower in a faster mode????



 First off, just for the sake of clarity, so I don't misconstrue your words, do you think Kakashi/Sasuke can handle Minato's speed without the Sharingan.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> its obito's eye so he gets obito's sharingan precog


Its not that simple..Kakashi said this before and Sasuke and Itachi also mentioned.. "If you're not an uchiha then you cant use %100 sharingan".. So Sasuke's feats for Sasuke kinda comedy..

Then ı can say ; Senjutsu is senjutsu dude.. And use SM Hashirama's feats for Jiraiya ?! Sounds fun ?!




uchihakil said:


> still enough to beat minato or his summons


This claim need more and serious feats imo dude.




uchihakil said:


> just cuz you dont like it does'nt mean its a feat he does'nt have, he has it, so deal with it


Its not about me you're talking like Kakashi somehow became a god like  But that thing happens to almost everybody and Kakashi replenished x3... And still portrayed below than other Hokages.. So.. kinda you have to deal miy friend.



uchihakil said:


> (v1 bee is faster than minato speedwise)


due to which feat or portrayal ?



UchihaX28 said:


> That's the crux of the matter, V1 Bee isn't faster than Minato or even remotely close to Minato in speed.


Actually real crux of the matter is Kakashi is not good at precog as Taka Sasuke and not fast as Taka Sasuke..

And since Bee aint fast as Minato.. So we have Minato >> Bee >> Taka Sasuke >> Kakashi.



Ryuzaki said:


> So it's PIS when I use an argument but you've been doing these last few pages isn't?


Dude you're the guy pnly using high moments for Kakashi Sensei.. And using RS's compliment for a battle as a feat or attiribute or something  Thats why ı said its a PIS..

He complimented to his master/teacher/guide skills which is kinda not great/good as contrary to Asuma, Gai, Jiraiya, Hiruzen even Bee.. And we all know Kakashi just has a smaller piece of their success. So this was the 2nd reason why this is PIS and irrelevant to current topic Sir.

I've never said something like "hey Minato has compliments from anybody who see him in action.. Then he can beat Kakashi"

Do yo read something like this from me ?! So .... Good days.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you look at the panel Bee's hand is behind his back the moment Minato appeared.
> 
> He didn't even have a blade in hand before Minato teleported to him.


Bees hand is also behind him here, before A even moved while he was still talking to minato, so whats your point?

Its likely he already had his sword drawn before he was even in danger, ergo, not a reaction

Minato spoke, then several others spoke, then bee had pointed said sword on minato...

Its blatantly shown to us

Wont address this again

Been going in circles with you and a few others for days now and every time its the same ol song n dance

I show manga canon and tell you whats blatantly happening

You proceed to put your own spin on it to better suit your needs

Its going nowhere so im just gonna agree to disagree at this point and wash my hands of this weirdness



Crimson Flam3s said:


> As if Minato was gonna let him pull out a blade out of his back right in front of his eyes that could have potentially killed him


Wouldnt have touched minato if he didnt want it to, apparently you and several others forgot minato has several other dozen FTG kunai littering the area. He could have escaped Bees sword at any time he wanted to. Which i have also pointed out already and you seem to have outright ignored it.

Unless i pointed that out to someone else, hard to keep track as theres no end to you people and you all keep making me repeat myself.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> He didn't blitz shit


He most certainly did...but i can see you wont budge on anything here so im not addressing this again

Minato also didnt have KI

Or else he would have slammed a rasengan into bees mouth instead of holding him at knife point and giving a speech afterwords.

Or stabbed bee in the heart obito style.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> the only way he had a chance at escaping was through FTG. Does Minato have that here?


Implying kakashi could last a second against the A/B combo..

Implying minato needs FTG against kakashi...and 3T kakashi at that...

roflmao




Crimson Flam3s said:


> Baseless and irrelevant considering Kakashi has shown comparable reactions on the same panel as Minato




Still clinging to that BS, outlier interception feat i see

I said it before and ill say it again...actually ill just quote it and save myself the time of typing yet another unaddressed point for the millionth time...


WorldsStrongest said:


> *Show me kakashi reacting to a point blank kamui warp with no knowledge, TSBs, fifth step of sekizo, or V2 A's top speed and then ill let you say its laughable.*
> 
> *Until then, minato wipes his ass with kakashis reaction time.*
> 
> ...







Crimson Flam3s said:


> So what is a water bullet that has no speed and destruction feats going to do to someone as fast as Kakashi


"someone as fast as kakashi"

Implying the man has any notable speed to speak of...

Your boy couldnt physically move in anticipation of a single tiny susanoo arrow by his own words, but hes dodging half a dozen water bullets the size of buntas head???

righttttttt




Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you look at your very own size comparison, you will see that Odama rasengan is about the size of several human heads, Minato's isn't.


If you think narutos Odama is the size of "several human heads" you need to read the manga again fam...

Its about the size of narutos *individual* head, maybe a head and a half, not *several* heads

And heres minatos again...about the size of his head...so the same damn size as narutos odama...

But heres the kicker...minatos rasengan doesnt need to be the exact size of an odama to shit on a raikiri...because the base rasengan does that just fine and *minatos rasengan dwarfs a base version in size*, theres no argument there.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Furthermore Naruto had to be in Kyuubi mode to use it, something Minato isn't able to.





Crimson Flam3s said:


> (I could only find a spanish page, but if you translate the very last sentence, it states only Naruto can do it due to Kurama's chakra.


All that means is Minato, the techniques creator, and a genius in basically every shinobi way, is more adept at using rasengan and controlling his chakra than BoS naruto...shocker...

Naruto needing the kyuubi at that point means jack shit when if you look at the manga at all you can see minato replicating the feat just fine.




Crimson Flam3s said:


> Minato never differentiated between the original and clones. Something you cannot argue against as it has been stated multiple times that's not possible with shadow clones.


Spoiler alert...minato did it...on panel...so i can in fact argue that its possible



Crimson Flam3s said:


> What tells you Kakashi couldn't detect the other ones the same way he did the first one?


Because he made no mention nor indication that he did or was even able to?

Youre reaching



Crimson Flam3s said:


> In fact, Kakashi was more impressive


Of course you would think that

Anyway... as i said at this point im just gonna agree to disagree and stop responding, ive said my piece and given my reasoning, *time and time again *because you keep asking the same questions different ways, basically we are getting nowhere.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Dislike 4


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## uchihakil (Jan 22, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> First off, just for the sake of clarity, so I don't misconstrue your words, do you think Kakashi/Sasuke can handle Minato's speed without the Sharingan.



its gonna bee like bee vs sasuke, minato will edge out due to being faster but he still wont outright blitz them, though he will tag them more times, but with the sharingan, that aint happening

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 22, 2017)

And i need a feat of minato being above v1 bee


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> And i need a feat of minato being above v1 bee




He is not know well Tobirama or Obito so ı dont say anything for them but He is prretty know 3rd Raikage, Killer Bee and Minato in terms of speed... And he said "After Minato ım the fastest" .. This one can ring some bells on your mind ?!
Do you have any feats about V1 Bee > Minato in terms of speed/reaction.

Only shinobi have reputation like "ıf you see him then run from him right away" is Minato... I want to remind this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 22, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> He is not know well Tobirama or Obito so ı dont say anything for them but He is prretty know 3rd Raikage, Killer Bee and Minato in terms of speed... And he said "After Minato ım the fastest" .. This one can ring some bells on your mind ?!
> Do you have any feats about V1 Bee > Minato in terms of speed/reaction.
> 
> Only shinobi have reputation like "ıf you see him then run from him right away" is Minato... I want to remind this.



really?? really?? so you think base minato WITHOUT FTG is faster than raikage?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 22, 2017)

^^ Everyone here knows minato is only faster thanks to ftg, so that scan is irrelevant, cuz this minato thats being debated is the one with out ftg, and if you think minato w/o ftg is faster than Ay you are on your own and have a good day

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> ^^ Everyone here knows minato is only faster thanks to ftg, so that scan is irrelevant, cuz this minato thats being debated is the one with out ftg, and if you think minato w/o ftg is faster than Ay you are on your own and have a good day



Minato without FTG is still faster than V1 Ay, when feats are considered.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Minato without FTG is still faster than V1 Ay, when feats are considered.



i want to see that feat

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Minato without FTG is still faster than V1 Ay, when feats are considered.


There is nothing in the manga to establish this statement

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 22, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Bees hand is also behind him here, before A even moved while he was still talking to minato, so whats your point?
> 
> Its likely he already had his sword drawn before he was even in danger, ergo, not a reaction
> 
> ...



Again, insinuating what happened does not help your case.

You still haven't answered why Minato would let bee pull out a sword in front of his face and let him threaten him with it.



Sorry but I won't budge on bias fueled speculation proven wrong by context and manga panels.



> Implying kakashi could last a second against the A/B combo..
> 
> Implying minato needs FTG against kakashi...and 3T kakashi at that...
> 
> roflmao



A very sad attempt at diverting the conversation.

My question was, can Minato do anything at all against V2 A besides FTG which he doesn't have here?

The answer is no. So why bring it up?




> Still clinging to that BS, outlier interception feat i see
> 
> I said it before and ill say it again...actually ill just quote it and save myself the time of typing yet another unaddressed point for the millionth time...



He had no issues reacting to TSB's, warping madara's shield before Gai moved a single meter or outspeeding the TSB's with a Kunai of his own, so what's your point again?



> "someone as fast as kakashi"
> 
> Implying the man has any notable speed to speak of...
> 
> ...



He has never had an issue keeping up with anyone if except Madara who also made Minato his bitch if I remember.

The same V2 jins that were pressuring Bee and the same Bee that clowned Minato's little sneak attack.

See where this is going? Again, an indication of the speed of those water bullets, would be great.



> If you think narutos Odama is the size of "several human heads" you need to read the manga again fam...
> 
> Its about the size of narutos *individual* head, maybe a head and a half, not *several* heads
> 
> ...



If you look at your very own link, at the bottom when Odama's rasengan has reached it's full size, it's the size of several heads.




> All that means is Minato, the techniques creator, and a genius in basically every shinobi way, is more adept at using rasengan and controlling his chakra than BoS naruto...shocker...
> 
> Naruto needing the kyuubi at that point means jack shit when if you look at the manga at all you can see minato replicating the feat just fine.



So what does him being the creator have to do with anything, when Naruto is more adept at Rasengan than Minato ever was.

But have fun arguing against the manga fact proved by panels, and databook that Kyuubi chakra or SM is needed to make a significantly stronger rasengan which's strenght lies not only in size but chakra quality and density as well.




> Spoiler alert...minato did it...on panel...so i can in fact argue that its possible
> 
> 
> Because he made no mention nor indication that he did or was even able to?Youre reaching
> ...



So you don't like the fact Kakashi can detect anyone enemy's by merely walking around while Minato has to stop and take his time sensing on the ground, something he can't afford to do when being pressured by an enemy in battle?

So Kakashi was able to detect that single enemy before Minato but now suddenly he magically can't detect the 20 clones that popped out of thin air? rofl.

Hell Minato couldn't even detect that clone was coming to attack Obito until the last second.

Still waiting for a panel stating Minato can differentiate between original and clones.

The fact is that unless Minato goes for Gamabunta right away, which is not IC for him or anyone in the manga to do against someone without a boss summon, he will quickly get outclassed by Kakashi's wide diversity of Doton and Suiton Jutsu while Minato pretty much only has Rasengan lol.



> Anyway... as i said at this point im just gonna agree to disagree and stop responding, ive said my piece and given my reasoning, *time and time again *because you keep asking the same questions different ways, basically we are getting nowhere.



If I had an argument as fallacious as you, I would quit too.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> i want to see that feat



By actual feats? Yeah I'll walk y'all through it right now.

So would you guys agree that V1 AAA and V1 AAAA are about the same speed? I do, so that's why I'm making this point. Even if you don't, the point honestly still stands. 

Sage Naruto vs V1 AAA:
because the base rasengan does that just fine

Sage Naruto vs Blind Base Madara( don't get it confused with Sage Mode): because the base rasengan does that just fine

So as you can, if the Sandaime Raikage was as fast as Blind Madara, then Naruto would have gotten his shit split. Or wouldn't have been able to rush in after AAA had initiated his flciker so casually. Both feats and portrayal would indicate that Minato is even faster than Blind Madara, especially considering Tobirama admitted inferiority to Minato in flciker speed( depending on how you interpret that panel) and we know he's faster than his brother....so faster than Blind Madara.

Let me also just go out on a whim and squash any excuses y'all could formulate about that panel.

1. But clearly Naruto wasn't really paying attention right? Wrong, homie was looking the final villain right in his eyeballs and was watching his everymove. He should have been more on guard then ever.

2.Naruto was simply caught off guard right? Nope. Not with his eyeballs on Madara and Sage Sensing allowing users to react to blindside attacks on multiple occasions.. some of which aren't even in battle:
because the base rasengan does that just fine
because the base rasengan does that just fine

3. But didn't Madara " charge" his flciker? I really don't even know that means but I've heard it. He didn't charge anything though, the seal he used before the flciker was to restrict Hashirama's movements.

So yeah... when it's comes down to pure feats, that's kinda just how it is. Portrayal is a different story though.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

Reactions: Minato ~ Base Raikage
Shunshin: V2 Raikage >> Minato >> V1 Raikage


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2017)

Just cant let sleeping dogs lie can you?




Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again, insinuating what happened does not help your case.
> 
> You still haven't answered why Minato would let bee pull out a sword in front of his face and let him threaten him with it.
> 
> ...


Says im biased and speculating

Shows the man panels and says EXACTLY what is shown to us

Goes on to claim false context...

This is painful to read honestly



Crimson Flam3s said:


> A very sad attempt at diverting the conversation.
> 
> My question was, can Minato do anything at all against V2 A besides FTG which he doesn't have here?
> 
> The answer is no. So why bring it up?


Dude...You are the one who brought it up...

How does Minatos shunshin speed when stacked up against A mean anything whatsoever for this matchup? Kakahsi has no tech anywhere near as fast as V2 A, making minatos hypothetical performance against an A without the use of FTG irrelevant.

Kakashi aint as fast as V2 A, so how does minato being unable to outspeed V2 help kakashi at all?

All that matters to this matchup is the fact minato is far faster than kakashi in every sense of the word, theres really no other way to spin it.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> He had no issues reacting to TSB's


Minato reacting to TSBs that are supposed to disintegrate on contact, allowed them to touch him, then took them with him and escaped from them all before they could even damage his clothing





Crimson Flam3s said:


> so what's your point again?


My point is minato has better reaction feats...

Again, show me a scan of kakashi managing a physical reaction against anything on the level of V2 A, until then, we have nothing to talk about in terms of whos reaction speed is better.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> He has never had an issue keeping up with anyone if except Madara


Guess you missed the part where he outright says *he cant react physically to a susanoo arrow from a half blind, dead tired sasuke*...but again, not surprising yet another of my points has gone uncontested.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> The same V2 jins that were pressuring Bee and the same Bee that clowned Minato's little sneak attack.


Again, you just reiterate something untrue and expect it to stick this time...

Bee didnt clown a damn thing, minato basically allowed the man to pull a sword on him by verbally announcing his arrival, call it PIS, or minato jobbing, the point is, Bee didnt truly react to a FTG blitz, cuz if he did, that would suggest that 1 young base bee, has comparable reactions to JJ madara...which is horseshit.

Kakashi was also backed up by a gated Gai against said V2 jins iirc, and the two only lasted a few seconds at best before they got bitch smacked back, context.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> See where this is going? Again, an indication of the speed of those water bullets, would be great.


Their size, coupled with their number, coupled with kakashis total lack of impressive movement speed feats all indicate that man is gonna get pasted.

As for their speed, they travel a distance at least twice the size of a biju pretty damn fast...

Also the fact they can stalemate a Bijus wind bullets that are capable of messing up bunta with a single hit mean if kakashi even gets licked by one of those water bullets he is pink mist.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you look at your very own link, at the bottom when Odama's rasengan has reached it's full size, it's the size of several heads.


If you even bothered to ever read my post in its entirety so i could stop reposting what ive shown you half a dozen times now, thatd be great.



WorldsStrongest said:


> But heres the kicker...minatos rasengan doesnt need to be the exact size of an odama to shit on a raikiri...because the base rasengan does that just fine and *minatos rasengan dwarfs a base version in size*, theres no argument there.



The bottom panel is also clearly the damn thing beginning to explode, not "reaching its full size" because rasengan has ever once functioned this way...

Look at the ground as it starts to crater...rasengan wouldnt do that unless it began to explode




Crimson Flam3s said:


> So what does him being the creator have to do with anything, when Naruto is more adept at Rasengan than Minato ever was.


Nice try, but naruto didnt surpass minatos application of rasengan until FRS, your boy kakashi tells us as much, as do feats considering narutos best usage of rasengan pre FRS is odama, which minato can replicate with a single hand and without the aid of a biju.

Him being the creator and having far better chakra control than naruto tells us minatoi could replicate things naruto does with rasengan using less chakra...hence why we are blatantly shown minato using an odama level rasengan without being assited by the kyuubi, which is what you claim is a prerequisite for odama, which is clearly bullshit as we see minato do it while not a jin.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> But have fun arguing against the manga fact proved by panels


The irony here is freaking hilarious



Crimson Flam3s said:


> So you don't like the fact Kakashi can detect anyone enemy's by merely walking around while Minato has to stop and take his time sensing on the ground, something he can't afford to do when being pressured by an enemy in battle?


This has been addressed in one of my earlier posts...and i dont feel like combing back through a few pages of responses and digging it up

Also shouldnt have to...

Cuz you have already read it and just ignored it...again...



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Still waiting for a panel stating Minato can differentiate between original and clones.


Then you have been waiting for no reason as i have posted the scan about 10 times now...

You just kinda say "Nah bro, but kakashi tho..." and claim i havent posted any scans...

Its quite tiresome arguing like this honestly



Crimson Flam3s said:


> The fact is that unless Minato goes for Gamabunta right away, which is not IC for him or anyone in the manga to do against someone without a boss summon, he will quickly get outclassed by Kakashi's wide diversity of Doton and Suiton Jutsu


Fodder doton and suiton...are gonna *Outclass* the yellow flash? Do you hear yourself right now?

This is just blatant downplay bro

Love to know how this fanfic version of kakashi you have crafted for yourself spins one single edge over minato into a victory when minato has the edge in literally every other stat...

Minato has the edge in speed, reactions, stamina, DC by a country mile, CQC, and very likely intellect..at the very least the two are on the same level on the latter.

The only thing, i repeat, the ONLY thing kakashi has going for him here is the ranged benefit of his ninjutsu, which minato can no sell with his reactions and base speed, and you are dreaming if you think minato wouldnt be able to close any distance kakashi creates...minato crossed an entire village in an instant with his base speed, he takes kakashis ranged edge out by staying up close with the man where minato has the edge.

Or minato simply summons bunta and kakashi is up a damn creek as the toad just tanks everything kakashi has and murks him with water bullets from a superior distance, eliminating kakashis ranged advantage as well.

And again, due to kakashis stamina, he cant even maintain his ninjutsu edge, as hed get winded very quickly, a lot faster than minato for damn sure.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> If I had an argument as fallacious as you, I would quit too.



Says the man who thinks kakashi has a chance in hell against gamabunta, claims kakashi is even in the same tier of reactions as minato ignoring the fact the man is useless against susanoo arrows by his own damn words, can pressure minato with fodder suitons, can spam ninjutsu till the cows come home with apparently no issues, can react to V2 A, thinks raikiri is comparable to an odama level rasengan despite every clash it had with the base rasengan ending in a stalemate

I could go on...

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> its gonna bee like bee vs sasuke, minato will edge out due to being faster but he still wont outright blitz them, though he will tag them more times, but with the sharingan, that aint happening



 Okay. I had an argument, but it feels too convoluted, so I'll ask a simple question:

 What feats/portrayal would place V1 Bee above Minato? Are we referring to reaction speed specifically, Shunshin, or their aggregate speed?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Reactions: Minato ~ Base Raikage


If this were true, minato wouldnt have been able to manage both mental and physical reactions against V2 A's top speed



UchihaX28 said:


> Shunshin: V2 Raikage >> Minato >> V1 Raikage


Id agree with this more or less


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> If this were true, minato wouldnt have been able to manage both mental and physical reactions against V2 A's top speed



 It was a minuscule physical reaction and every shinobi can mentally process far quicker than their actual speed. This is intrinsic to every shinobi since you have to mentally process something well before you can actually physically react to it.

 From what you're arguing is the equivalent of arguing that Deidara's reactions = Sasuke's because he reacted to Sasuke even though that's false.



> Id agree with this more or less



 Good.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 23, 2017)

Minato has zero feats that puts him above v1 bee or v1 raikage, his speed without is overrated, these characters (bee and ay) are fast even without their respective modes, and with modes they become much faster, base bee was shuunshining from moutains to mountains in an instant and drew his sword against the so called yellow flash the same time it took minato to take the stance he did against him, that feat debunks all minato is faster than bee, so we who claim minato aint as fast as v1 bee actually have a CANON feat to prove our claim unlike you guys who keep saying minato is faster than v1 bee and v1 raikage (a baseless assumption), and you guys like veracity saying minato is faster than blind madara lmfao (such bullshit) i'm not even gonna address this, cuz its the thread would be derailed again on madara or minato who the faster character is with no ftg

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> really?? really?? so you think base minato WITHOUT FTG is faster than raikage?


This not the topic dude.. You asked "why minato > bee in terms of speed" and ı show you.. Thats all.. This is nothing about my or your opinion this is solid reputation and portrayal of minato.. And You asked me about Killer Bee not Raikage.. son dont change the subject and deal with the fact that how wrong your comments are..

And about Shunshin speeds Minato hasnt any low moments like Raikage.. At their top maybe both of them are equal or some one is better than the other.. Its to close to decide.. But if we're gonna look at not just "top performance" but lookin' to regular feats.. I think Minato is better even without FTG..

Minato take out Kumogakure Jonins .. Which Jonins are assigned to capture a jinc from strongest village.. As a academy student he take them out (its kinda PIS moment ı can accept that) V1 Raikage 's point blank attack countered by Suigetsu (who is at least comes from dozen of meters away) and his V2 point blank attack is countered by Gaara..

And at War Tsunade outpaced him in terms of trigger process and reactions.. But all of this are off topic..

You said ; V1 Bee > Minato (and not saying anything about FTG), and want to see a proof and ı showed.

And you're talking about Killer Bee And Raikage.. both (specially Bee due to his more unpredictable style) kinda blitz Taka Sasuke (who is faster than Kakashi and who is a original uchiha with two MS) ...

And you kinda try to say Kakashi > Minato in terms of speed with using Sasuke's MS feats for Kakashi.. But you missing something... Minato blitzed the guys whom are blitzed Taka Sasuke.. And Taka Sasuke faster and has better precog than Kakashi 

So do you finally understand how wrong your way to defend him ?!



uchihakil said:


> Minato has zero feats that puts him above v1 bee or v1 raikage



V1 Raikage ?! Who is even cant pass Taka Members ?! Minato even slower than V1 not V2 ha  Wow finally we have a bias here..

Dude Raikage's himself admitted he is the 2nd after Minato.. You dont need any feats.. But ıf you want so badly.. You can check early posts of this topic.



Ryuzaki said:


> There is nothing in the manga to establish this statement


V1 ay countered by Jugo twice, Suigetsu from once..
V2 Ay's point blank attack stopped by Gaara
V2 Ay's outpaced by Tsunade in War Arc.

On the other hand.. Tobirama admitted Minato's superiority who is able to react a Juubi Jinc.

And Ay's bodygurad Cee says "He is nearly (or faster) fast as 4th Hokage now" when he release his V2.. Not V1 ... So we all know Minato >>> V1 Raikage.. So stop diggin'..

And this is not helpful for Kakashi too..
___________________________________

and for general posters (who try to defend Kakashi's case)

Everyone just somehow stopped defend kakashi or make cases for kakashi just try to lowball Minato for Kakashi's behalf.. And this is kinda terrible example of debating.



uchihakil said:


> if you think minato w/o ftg is faster than Ay you are on your own and have a good day


The opponent of Minato is not ay  It is Kakashi who is far slower than Raikage. So what are you trying to acheive with scratchin Raikage's capabilities ?!

And ın raw speed maybe no normal shinobi faster than Raikage.. But actin on something its just different.. you have to react something, and you have to think fast and then also strike fast too.. Raikage only good at the third step of actin / offensive movement..

If ım must consider as all.. I think Minato even more resourcefull than Raikage in terms of speed usage and acceleration

Base Bee just mock with Taka Member.. Suigetsu even touched him, sasuke cant track him even in base thanks to his unpredictable style and better usage of acceleration.

But Taka member easily able to react Morals OFF V1 Raikage's attacks.. So thats mean Base Bee far faster than V1 Raikage ?!

I dont think so.. In terms of raw speed Raikage should be still faster than his bro... But Raikage is so predictable, so linear and terrible user of speed.. And dont use acceleration for confusin' opponent's mind or breakin opponent's guard..

So in terms of raw speed.. V2 Raikage might be (probably) faster than Non  FTG Minato..

But who has bigger impact with his speed ? I think Minato even w/o FTG.. I dont see any feat from Ay like Minato's konoha jump, or saving baby naruto from stabbing. Or Saving Kushina.. Or outpacin 3 Hokage with some big gap..

So, dont scratch anymore.. This is about Kakashi not Ay, Sasuke or Bee...

Kakashi is slower, physically weaker, less durable than these 3.. And Minato gonna win this rather easily.


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## uchihakil (Jan 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> This not the topic dude.. You asked "why minato > bee in terms of speed" and ı show you.. Thats all.. This is nothing about my or your opinion this is solid reputation and portrayal of minato.. And You asked me about Killer Bee not Raikage.. son dont change the subject and deal with the fact that how wrong your comments are..
> 
> And about Shunshin speeds Minato hasnt any low moments like Raikage.. At their top maybe both of them are equal or some one is better than the other.. Its to close to decide.. But if we're gonna look at not just "top performance" but lookin' to regular feats.. I think Minato is better even without FTG..
> 
> ...



Quote the post were i said kakashi > minato or stop claiming shit so you look better, and i said gimme a feat of minato being faster and you gave me a feat of minato with FTG which has zero relevance here, and giving me kid minatos feats is also irrelevant cuz none of them are faster than kakashi, you going as far as saying kakashi is physically weaker and less durable goes to show how much of a wanker you are, cuz minato has ZERO tanking feats and ZERO strength feats, (while kakashi has feats of getting kicked around by kakuzu and smashed around by v2 jins) honestly i aint debating with a wanker like you no more, have a good day


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> none of them are faster than kakashi


I'd never said the opposite ?! :. Chill..




uchihakil said:


> which has zero relevance


Can you give me feats about Bee > Minato ?! .. 

Minato outpaced all hokages with his shunshin by far.. So V1 Bee now faster than Tobirama or Hashirama too?! 

Minato 'S Konoha Jump (all town coast to coast) > V2 Bee's mountain Jump 

So how V1 Bee can faster than Minato even his V2 not good enough ?




uchihakil said:


> you going as far as saying kakashi is physically weaker and less durable goes to show how much of a wanker


Dude did you really think he is not weaker or less durable then Bee, Taka Sasuke and 4th Raikage ?!? 




uchihakil said:


> cuz minato has ZERO tanking feats and ZERO strength feats,


I wasnt talked about Minato ?! 

And Minato's durability feats > kakashi. Teleport big objects like %100 Kyuubi (Kakashi needed to Kyuubi's chakra for doing the same for Hachibi  ) and %100 Kyuubi's TBB. Making Giant Barriers even %100 Kyuubi aint able to pass. 

And he still has any complaints about his chakra... And he sealed %50 kyuubi inside of him .. And he nearly paralyzed but even after then this He was still able to react Kyuubi's Paw attack (Which is same attack found "So Fast" by Sage Naruto) . 

And About Strength Kushina and merely dead Minato are able to stop Kyuubi's raw strength ?! And He still able to seal Kyuubi inside of Naruto ?! 

Smashing by Kakuzu and V2 Jincs ?! We're talking about Kyuubi here   Good luck with  those.. 




uchihakil said:


> i aint debating with a wanker like you no more, have a good day


Try to use taka sasuke and bee's feats for kakashi  And ım the wanker  Good call man.. have a nice day for yourself


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## uchihakil (Jan 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I'd never said the opposite ?! :. Chill..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



> says minato stopped kyuubi's RAW STRENGTH *smh*
> says minato is more durable yet give gives example of who had superior chakra *smh*

You are high on some cheap shit, i'm not ever gonna take you seriously lmfao @minato stopping kyuubis raw strength


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> says minato stopped kyuubi's RAW STRENGTH *smh*


I'd never said or meant this.. Are you some educated troll or what ?!  


uchihakil said:


> says minato is more durable yet give gives example of who had superior chakra


I also gave durability feats and in narutoverse chakra directly effect on durability & Stamina .. These are basic parameters for the series man.




uchihakil said:


> i'm not ever gonna take you seriously





uchihakil said:


> i aint debating with a wanker like you


You say things that actually not stick with  keep your promises dude  


uchihakil said:


> stopping kyuubis raw strength


Dude; We have %50 kyuubi try to kill something with his claws.. And that attempt stopped by Minato and Kushina ?! Im not adding something onto this.. This is whats happened.. You call this as PIS or non-sense  But this is not about me.. This is the feat's itself .. Deal with it


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## uchihakil (Jan 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I'd never said or meant this.. Are you some educated troll or what ?!
> 
> I also gave durability feats and in narutoverse chakra directly effect on durability & Stamina .. These are basic parameters for the series man.
> 
> ...



50% kurama's roar pushed back bijuus yet he thinks kushina  and minato could actually stop full kurama, well i guess hiruzen is stronger than kurama cuz he pushed him out of the village too, well i guess the kages could have just flogged kurama out of the village


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> he thinks kushina and minato could actually stop full kurama


Im not "think" this or imagine.. This is happened ?! Dont you understand..Did you suggest Kurama didnt use his full force or strength then say that.. But aint said things like "did you think/claim" cuz looks childish.  And Yes Enma's adamantine form is powerfull enough to push Mindless Kyuubi per canon feat. .. But He was brainwashed.. So Kyuubi can push back enma with his own will ı guess. So Konohamaru beat a pain body but this is not automaticly means that he is stronger than path.. So your consideration logic full of flaws.

And looks like even 57 y/o Hiruzen shows better strength feat than Kakashi with Enma  How about that  

And how about you're claim which about not-talking with me anymore ?  How is it goin so far ?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jan 23, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just cant let sleeping dogs lie can you?



Wow, you actually replied. Guess I really hit a nerve with that one.




> Says im biased and speculating
> 
> Shows the man panels and says EXACTLY what is shown to us
> 
> ...



What's painful to read is your own misguided interpretation of that scene ignoring the context of it, panels and Minato's own words.

Minato praised Killer Bee for his quick reactions and instincts that put him on a tight spot and staying true to his name.

Again why would he let him do that in front of his face and them compliment him for it?

Probably the most hilarious misinterpretation I have seen in a while.



> Dude...You are the one who brought it up...
> 
> How does Minatos shunshin speed when stacked up against A mean anything whatsoever for this matchup? Kakahsi has no tech anywhere near as fast as V2 A, making minatos hypothetical performance against an A without the use of FTG irrelevant.
> 
> ...



No, you brought it up implying it made any difference here, when he does not posses ftg here.





> Minato reacting to TSBs that are supposed to disintegrate on contact, allowed them to touch him, then took them with him and escaped from them all before they could even damage his clothing



Very impressive.




> My point is minato has better reaction feats...
> 
> Again, show me a scan of kakashi managing a physical reaction against anything on the level of V2 A, until then, we have nothing to talk about in terms of whos reaction speed is better.



He was not in that scene so I can't show you a panel like that.

*But I have a panel of both of them reacting to the same threat with similar reactions while Minato is in an enhanced KCM mode and that's more relevant than what you are asking will ever be.*



> Guess you missed the part where he outright says *he cant react physically to a susanoo arrow from a half blind, dead tired sasuke*...but again, not surprising yet another of my points has gone uncontested.



So his arrows speed is actually decreased when tired? That's news to me.

Also War arc Kakashi>>>Kage summit Kakashi.

Are you not wondering why Sasuke never seemed to get any physical enhancements yet he was always able to keep up with Naruto and his speed? He is not the only one who can do so.



> Again, you just reiterate something untrue and expect it to stick this time...
> 
> *Bee didnt clown a damn thing, minato basically allowed the man to pull a sword on him by verbally announcing his arrival*, call it PIS, or minato jobbing, the point is, Bee didnt truly react to a FTG blitz, cuz if he did, *that would suggest that 1 young base bee, has comparable reactions to JJ madara...which is horseshit.*



Nothing more than speculation.

Go complain to Kishi about inaccuracies, not me.



> Kakashi was also backed up by a gated Gai against said V2 jins iirc, and the two only lasted a few seconds at best before they got bitch smacked back, context.



They backed each other up and fought an equal number of opponents.

Bee and Naruto specially were getting highly pressured by the weaker non V2 versions. Kakashi and Gai performed much better against multiple stronger versions.

The same KCM naruto that barely outran V2 A(which had no killer intent btw) and the same Bee that had no issues reacting to Minato.

*I will reiterate again, movement speed does not equal having better combat speed to someone else.*

To give you an idea base bee and v2 Bee made Taka Sasuke his bitch. Kishi didn't title the chapter of their arrival "Masters" for nothing. It was to show that older, more skilled and more experienced can compete with stronger but inexperienced.



> Their size, coupled with their number, coupled with kakashis total lack of impressive movement speed feats all indicate that man is gonna get pasted.
> 
> As for their speed, they travel a distance at least twice the size of a biju pretty damn fast...
> 
> Also the fact they can stalemate a Bijus wind bullets that are capable of messing up bunta with a single hit mean if kakashi even gets licked by one of those water bullets he is pink mist.



You have nothing to indicate their speed and ignore the fact that Kakashi has 1000 ways to avoid them, including suiton jutsu, going under water, under ground etc. I agree that they have good firepower.



> If you even bothered to ever read my post in its entirety so i could stop reposting what ive shown you half a dozen times now, thatd be great.
> 
> The bottom panel is also clearly the damn thing beginning to explode, not "reaching its full size" because rasengan has ever once functioned this way...
> 
> Look at the ground as it starts to crater...rasengan wouldnt do that unless it began to explode



Oh really? Show me panels of every single rasQuoteengan greatly expanding when it explodes? Because it has never even been that way.

Lol at comparing Kid sasuke's chidori to kid Naruto's rasengan and implying that they are equal.

Also lol at ignoring the fact that what makes an Odama rasengan(as stated by databook) is stronger chakra like Kyuubi, or sage mode.



> Nice try, but naruto didnt surpass minatos application of rasengan until FRS, your boy kakashi tells us as much, as do feats considering narutos best usage of rasengan pre FRS is odama, which minato can replicate with a single hand and without the aid of a biju.
> 
> Him being the creator and having far better chakra control than naruto tells us minatoi could replicate things naruto does with rasengan using less chakra...hence why we are blatantly shown minato using an odama level rasengan without being assited by the kyuubi, which is what you claim is a prerequisite for odama, which is clearly bullshit as we see minato do it while not a jin.



Wrong, what makes an Odama rasengan is the chakra type and density, per the databoot. Not just size. Size is meaningless without more chakra to back it up

The final nail in the coffin is when you compare the crater that creates and creates.

GG



> The irony here is freaking hilarious
> 
> 
> This has been addressed in one of my earlier posts...and i dont feel like combing back through a few pages of responses and digging it up
> ...



Minato said "I believe them to be clones" not, "The original just created 20 more clones and I know his exact location, Kakashi go hit him at xyz coordinates instead of wasting time killing all the other clones"

Pretty funny how you spin that situation tbh.



> Fodder doton and suiton...are gonna *Outclass* the yellow flash? Do you hear yourself right now?
> 
> This is just blatant downplay bro
> 
> ...



Minato's foot speed is not going to help against someone who has better Short range, long range, defense and offense ninjutsu, better CQC, equal intellect, sharingan precog, better strength and can use the first gate.

Literally the only thing he has going for him here is a speed difference that's not enough to overwhelm Kakashi, Rasengan which get's matched by Raikiri and unlikely to result in a clash, and Gamabunta which is not guaranteed to be even used right away or against a lone opponent as that has never been IC.



> The only thing, i repeat, the ONLY thing kakashi has going for him here is the ranged benefit of his ninjutsu, which minato can no sell with his reactions and base speed, and you are dreaming if you think minato wouldnt be able to close any distance kakashi creates...minato crossed an entire village in an instant with his base speed, he takes kakashis ranged edge out by staying up close with the man where minato has the edge.



All Kakashi has to do is make the suiton that sent Zabuza miles into the woods, to disorient Minato and plant a trap from there.

Or fight him in the water with a raiton bunshin he can easily created out of LOS with doton underground or doton wall, and have the raiton bunshin electrocute Minato in the water.



> Or minato simply summons bunta and kakashi is up a damn creek as the toad just tanks everything kakashi has and murks him with water bullets from a superior distance, eliminating kakashis ranged advantage as well.
> 
> And again, due to kakashis stamina, he cant even maintain his ninjutsu edge, as hed get winded very quickly, a lot faster than minato for damn sure.



I agree that Minato's chances of winning increase when if Bunta comes into play but there is no guarantee that he will be summoned right away or in time, and that he can't be taken care of. All Kakashi has to do is wait for a single jump that he makes and raiden him in half as he is coming back down.

Let me ask you something, how many times Minato wins this match out of 10?



> Says the man who thinks kakashi has a chance in hell against gamabunta, claims kakashi is even in the same tier of reactions as minato ignoring the fact the man is useless against susanoo arrows by his own damn words, can pressure minato with fodder suitons, can spam ninjutsu till the cows come home with apparently no issues, can react to V2 A, thinks raikiri is comparable to an odama level rasengan despite every clash it had with the base rasengan ending in a stalemate
> 
> *I could go on...*



Go on then.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> V1 ay countered by Jugo twice, Suigetsu from once..
> V2 Ay's point blank attack stopped by Gaara
> V2 Ay's outpaced by Tsunade in War Arc.



You'll have to post specific manga pages for me to take this at credible value. I do not recall any moment where Gaara outperformed V2 Ay ever or Tsunade outperforming him.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> On the other hand.. Tobirama admitted Minato's superiority who is able to react a Juubi Jinc.
> 
> And Ay's bodygurad Cee says "He is nearly (or faster) fast as 4th Hokage now" when he release his V2.. Not V1 ... So we all know Minato >>> V1 Raikage.. So stop diggin'..
> 
> And this is not helpful for Kakashi too..


Kakashi is essentially on the same level as MS Sasuke in terms of speed, anything Sasuke was able to do Kakashi should be able to replicate. Therefore, I see Kakashi performing at the same level or higher as MS Sasuke. He'll still lose sight of him when Raikage goes V2, but that's to be expected. V2 Ay is faster than Minato without Hiraishin, Kakashi and Sasuke. They all get rag-dolled by V2, if they fail to put him down. Minato isn't reacting to V2 without Hiraishin, his body speed too slow.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Minato isn't reacting to V2 without Hiraishin, his body speed too slow


Konoha Jump
Saving Naruto from Kyuubi claw when he was nearly paralyzed (with Kushina of course but he get there before)
Throw his kunai perfectly when Raikage has smaller distance than 1-2cm to Minato 

So you can say "Not Good Enough" but sayin "too slow" is kinda outrageous.. 

MS Sasuke has two MS ans has less taxing problems.. So in 2-3 minute of some fight maybe (just maybe) kakashi can show same reaction  feats with Taka Sasuke.. But after from that.. Sadly he is gonna loose his grip on sharingan in time.

Taka Sasuke track Bee, Raikage and wrestled with Kage and bodyguards.. On the other hand Kakashi hardly avoid (due to his own explanation) Sasuke's susano arrow (when sasuke about to lost his ms sight) .. So ı kinda cant buy that ;" Kakashi can do what Taka Sasuke able to do in terms of speed."

Cuz Taka Sasuke kinda rival for SM Naruto.. And SM Naruto's reaction >> MS Kakashi.


Ryuzaki said:


> I do not recall any moment where Gaara outperformed V2 Ay ever or Tsunade outperforming him.


Reacting for Gaara not outperforming -> You can read Kage Summit War
And temporarily outpaced by Tsunade in terms of first reaction /trigger process.. -> You can read Gokage Vs Edo Madara (before madara releasin his susanos)


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

Kakashi wins with a good mid to high diff. Minato is not cloaked RCM speed physically, let's let the shit die and rot in pieces. Kakashi is way more diverse equally if not more intelligent, and intimately knows Minato. Not seeing how Minato wins. He steps into a Raiton feint, gets genjutsu'd, or beat by Kakashi's diversity across fields.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 23, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> He steps into a Raiton feint





JiraiyaFlash said:


>






Dr. White said:


> gets genjutsu'd


Summons, Sensory, Clone Feints, Superior Speed, SM.. He has lots of answers.



Dr. White said:


> with a good mid to high diff


So he even has chance to mid diff Minato  



_____________________________

And ım also not seeing Kakashi wins.. ( ıf we're gonna compile lots of ability than ı wanna do that too  )

Taka Sasuke aint able to track Base Bee which is slower than Minato in every aspect even w/o FTG. 
Kakashi even needs his most taxing jutsus like Raiden, Raiton Beast and Kamui for Summons .. So how he gonna save or control his stamina against Minato.
Even with small amount he still has SM. He is already faster and more durable than Kakashi so ıf we're gonna add SM into this (even for 4-5 minutes with intervals)
Kakashi all (besides raiton) elemental attempts gonna nullified with giant Suiton Bombs or Oil Releases.
Kakashi already has chakra control ıssues.. So 5 Element Seal or 4 Element Seals is pretty rough stunt options.


Kakashi aint V2 Raikage + Killer Bee or aint Teen Obito + %100 Juubi..
When Kakashi starts to tire and loos his grip on Sharingan then Odama Rasengan size Rasengan with Konoha Jump feat speed is gonna Kakashi's end IMO. 

He is not at that caliber.. So FTG is a specialty which is required for this kinda situations not For Kakashi.

And remember ım not even talked about Ma & Pa or Shiki Fujin or Portrayal/Reputation


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

To begin, Minato's sensing is not passive. He has to become immobile and focus on sensing. Even if he senses a clone he won't know which one is the feint, and Kakashi got a clone feint in on Deva path and kept up the secrecy for most of their 1v2 skirmish. Minato's sensing is not a counter to that.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Summons, Sensory, Clone Feints, Superior Speed, SM.. He has lots of answers.


- Summons are the only viable options and it is not something Minato leans on. At best he summons one, which Kakashi can counter with Raiton projectiles, clones, and genjutsu.
- He has 0 feint feats and only made a clone (outside of the barrier stuff) for his ultimate jutsu. Kakashi's game is better in feats and arsenal/
- Barely neglible speed gap and sharingan pre cog is better.
- SM is a non factor by Minato's own admission.





> Taka Sasuke aint able to track Base Bee which is slower than Minato in every aspect even w/o FTG.


Except he isn't. Minato does not have any combat feats comparable to Killer Bee's dexterity with seven sword style, or lariating a V2 Ei midway and beating out his acceleration. Bee intercepted Minato's attack on Ei right out of FTG as well and was meters away.


> Kakashi even needs his most taxing jutsus like Raiden, Raiton Beast and Kamui for Summons .. So how he gonna save or control his stamina against Minato.


Uhm Kakashi's war feat speak for themselves and with MS to waste a shit ton of chakra he can go even longer. Minato is not a stamina beast lmao. There is nothing to indicate he is, and before you point to SM realize Kabuto was not a chakra beast and was able to have perfect SM unlike Jiraiya or Minato.


> Even with small amount he still has SM. He is already faster and more durable than Kakashi so ıf we're gonna add SM into this (even for 4-5 minutes with intervals)


SM is irrelevant by Minato's own admission. He literally used it once vs a God Tier because SM was specifically the only thing that would work and with SM + FTG still got rapestomped compared to 7th gate Gai who physically could keep pace with Madara. There are very few instances SM would be relevant and this match is not one of them.


> Kakashi all (besides raiton) elemental attempts gonna nullified with giant Suiton Bombs or Oil Releases.
> Kakashi already has chakra control ıssues.. So 5 Element Seal or 4 Element Seals is pretty rough stunt options.


Gamabunta is not on the same casting speed level as Kakashi lmao he isn't nuetralizing shit from Kakashi. Kakashi does not have chakra control problems. He had stamina problems because the sharingan was taxing on him because he wasn't uchiha. He worked on his stamina problem and had the chakra control to develop and master Kamui/multiple uses during war arc. So no not buying this portion of argument.

Seals take time and Kakashi has to be stationary. If Minato goes for this odds are he eats a clone feint.




> Kakashi aint V2 Raikage + Killer Bee or aint Teen Obito + %100 Juubi..


- Minato did not beat Ei and Killer Bee. He beat Ei but never injured or maimed them in his fights, and Bee intercepted him once and anticipated his FTG usage once little knowledge to Minato's own praise. Minato doesn't have hirahsin here either which is the only reason his beautiful face wasn't punched in the first milliseconds of the fight.

Minato did not fight Kyuubi and Obito at once lmao. He had Hiruzen and dozens of chunin/jonin fighting kyuubi, and he also once again did not actually kill Obito. Once again needing Hirashin to survive the first attack in the fight and keep pace in general. Base Minato gets auto negged by Obito.



> When Kakashi starts to tire and loos his grip on Sharingan then Odama Rasengan size Rasengan with Konoha Jump feat speed is gonna Kakashi's end IMO.


Kakashi fought day and night in the war over multiple battles using his base arsenal, 3 tomoe, and MS/Kamui and he did not tire until like his 4th kamui. This fight is going to end before days lmao.



> He is not at that caliber.. So FTG is a specialty which is required for this kinda situations not For Kakashi.


Nope, Kakashi is the only one who could survive Kakuzu/Hidan combo at once, He got hype from Pein and was able to clone feint Deva/Mecha, and was vital in KCM/Gai/Kakashi vs Obito and the Bjuu. It's nonsense to claim base Minato is of some crazy magnitude above kakashi.



> And remember ım not even talked about Ma & Pa or Shiki Fujin or Portrayal/Reputation


Because Minato is not Jiraiya and does not rely or use the toads often. Certainly not proactively and instead reactively.

Shiki Fujin obviously nets him a draw but this assumes Minato will know when he is about to die and opt for suicide pact in that moment and not mid combat before he decides such and executes the jutsu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> And ım also not seeing Kakashi wins.. ( ıf we're gonna compile lots of ability than ı wanna do that too  )
> 
> Taka Sasuke aint able to track Base Bee which is slower than Minato in every aspect even w/o FTG.



I think this is a poor assessment of Sasuke's strength. Context denotes that Sasuke wasn't skewered because of Base Bee's speed, but because of his unorthodox kenjutsu; Suigetsu's elicited responses illustrates this. [1] [2] Not only can Bee slam his rapid, incessant blades that the Sharingan would struggle to discern, but Bee can also maneuver around gracefully which makes it more difficult for the tormented to even position themselves appropriately and mount a counter-attack (since he's consistently in motion). The unorthodox aspect of the Kenjutsu specifically is something the Sharingan struggles to deal with, so it had less to do with speed and more to do with Bee's dexterity and unpredictability overall.

That said, we're given two scenarios that illustrates Taka Sasuke's ability to maneuver far faster than Base Bee; against V1 Bee and V1 Raikage. I won't provide references for them because this is common knowledge, so it immediately debunks the notion that Base Bee can "blitz" Sasuke.

Base Bee isn't even that incredibly fast. His speed was traced by Suigetsu and he resorted to an elusive tactic by encumbering Kisame with multiple weapons in order to subdue him. Even blind-side attacks could not tag Kisame who was less reactive than Taka Sasuke (or any P2 Sharingan user for that matter). It seems invidious that you would even make such a comparison in the first place. Base Bee was not in a league of his own against Sharingan users, this belonged to Raikage specifically.



> Kakashi even needs his most taxing jutsus like Raiden, Raiton Beast and Kamui for Summons .. So how he gonna save or control his stamina against Minato.
> Even with small amount he still has SM. He is already faster and more durable than Kakashi so ıf we're gonna add SM into this (even for 4-5 minutes with intervals)
> Kakashi all (besides raiton) elemental attempts gonna nullified with giant Suiton Bombs or Oil Releases.
> Kakashi already has chakra control ıssues.. So 5 Element Seal or 4 Element Seals is pretty rough stunt options



I don't think Kakashi would need taxing jutsu such as Raiton Bunshin to defeat Minato, but he is a nimble fighter with superior * physical * (not aggregate) reaction speed, so he's still going to have to put in some work utilizing his profound background in ninjutsu to gain the decisive upperhand. It is important to note that if Minato charges in recklessly, Kakashi has superior dexterity (as in, greater proficiency in Taijutsu) because he's battled consistently against a Taijutsu Master such as Gai and even Gai had to resort to anomalous tactics to avoid the Sharingan. Sharingan is a hindrance for Minato in CQC (Genjutsu) similar to Kakashi's experience in Taijutsu, so bumrushing him without FTG is pure suicide without any sort of strategy.



> *Kakashi aint V2 Raikage + Killer Bee or aint Teen Obito + %100 Juubi*..
> When Kakashi starts to tire and loos his grip on Sharingan then Odama Rasengan size Rasengan with Konoha Jump feat speed is gonna Kakashi's end IMO.



Thing is, he doesn't need to be.



> He is not at that caliber.. So FTG is a specialty which is required for this kinda situations not For Kakashi.
> 
> And remember ım not even talked about Ma & Pa or Shiki Fujin or Portrayal/Reputation



Any experienced Sharingan user would give Minato without FTG a good fight if not, actually defeat him.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Veracity (Jan 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Minato has zero feats that puts him above v1 bee or v1 raikage, his speed without is overrated, these characters (bee and ay) are fast even without their respective modes, and with modes they become much faster, base bee was shuunshining from moutains to mountains in an instant and drew his sword against the so called yellow flash the same time it took minato to take the stance he did against him, that feat debunks all minato is faster than bee, so we who claim minato aint as fast as v1 bee actually have a CANON feat to prove our claim unlike you guys who keep saying minato is faster than v1 bee and v1 raikage (a baseless assumption), and you guys like veracity saying minato is faster than blind madara lmfao (such bullshit) i'm not even gonna address this, cuz its the thread would be derailed again on madara or minato who the faster character is with no ftg


Lmao you can't address it. Why would Blind Madara be faster than Minato? Answer that

Reactions: Useful 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 23, 2017)

Minato's Shunshin should be higher than Madara's, but Madara's reaction speed is significantly greater IMO.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 24, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Konoha Jump
> Saving Naruto from Kyuubi claw when he was nearly paralyzed (with Kushina of course but he get there before)
> Throw his kunai perfectly when Raikage has smaller distance than 1-2cm to Minato
> 
> ...


Minato is not going to be able to keep pace with V2 Ay, Ay is faster and given the scenario he loses his head before he can react. His body speed is too slow.



> Taka Sasuke track Bee, Raikage and wrestled with Kage and bodyguards.. On the other hand Kakashi hardly avoid (due to his own explanation) Sasuke's susano arrow (when sasuke about to lost his ms sight) .. So ı kinda cant buy that ;" Kakashi can do what Taka Sasuke able to do in terms of speed."
> 
> Cuz Taka Sasuke kinda rival for SM Naruto.. And SM Naruto's reaction >> MS Kakashi.
> 
> ...


You are the one saying that Gaara reacted to V2 Ay, where and how is what I am asking. You also said that Tsunade kept pace with V2 Ay I am asking where and when that happened.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 24, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> but because of his unorthodox kenjutsu


You need serious speed  for that unorthodox kenjutsu style.. Cuz its base on agilitiy and able to control multiple blades on target.. So you cant just say.. Base bee aint fast or faster than MS Precog.. His kenjutsu style is just too complicated..Nah ım not buying it Sir. You right of course his style has effect on that fight and feats.. But style also requires great agility with speed.



UchihaX28 said:


> (since he's consistently in motion)


Yes cuz he is use his acceleration abilities very fast and very fluent.. Which is also requires great reactions to mastered it.

Keep Zabuza to constant motion with his base speed .. But he is never gonna stop always try to attack ... It can be effective against a MS Genius ?! I dont think he would even scartch Hebi Sasuke.




UchihaX28 said:


> far faster than Base Bee; against V1 Bee and V1 Raikage


Im agree with V1 Raikage part cuz he is just too predictable. But agaisnt V1 Bee Sasuke only avoid some aerial attack (which that means Killer Bee wasnt run on his feet. And due to basic Physic you're kinda lose your acceleration in the air during time)



UchihaX28 said:


> Base Bee was not in a league of his own against Sharingan users,


Then how Taka Vs Bee happened ?! Taka have a kenjutsu master, a mindless imperfect SM User,a healer/sensor and a Sharingan Genius..

But that stomp still happened. ?! the only reason was  kenjutsu style ?  I dont think so.. Yes Base Bee not "incredibly" fast but he is so good utilizin his speed on his cqc style and his acceleration usage also good and ı think this more important than raw speed.




UchihaX28 said:


> as in, greater proficiency in Taijutsu


Minato didnt show much taijutsu feat. But ı dont recall any hokage that has less taijutsu proficiency than Kakashi.
And due to chain of Hashirama & Tobirama -> Hiruzen -> Jiraiya -> Minato -> Kakashi -> Naruto

I dont think Minato is bad at taijutsu.. Speed, FTG, Rasengan are quite cqc skills in fact. So ı wouldnt say "greater proficiency" . Might be better but not greater.




UchihaX28 said:


> he is a nimble fighter with superior * physical * (not aggregate) reaction speed


Im not gonna into this like you said Sir  But ı wouldnt say superior too.


UchihaX28 said:


> because he's battled consistently against a Taijutsu Master such as Gai and even Gai had to resort to anomalous tactics to avoid the Sharingan


Friendly showdowns in their youth (we never a match-up between these two char and Kakashi was 26 at BoS. So ı dont think Young Gai cant be considered at the same threat level with Hokage Minato in cqc. )




UchihaX28 said:


> Sharingan is a hindrance for Minato in CQC (Genjutsu) similar to Kakashi's experience in Taijutsu, so bumrushing him without FTG is pure suicide without any sort of strategy.


I assume we already pass Sharingan precog effects right ? It gonna effect that much this fight... Due to what Raikage and Bee due to superior sharingan user. And Minato's portrayal.

About genjutsu, kakashi never genjutsu on that level as an execution asset in cqc..

Didnt use agaisnt Zabuza, didnt use against Sasori & Deidara (at first encounter), didnt use against Hidan in cqc, didnt use on Kakuzu, didnt try on Pain for reasonable reasons. And didnt try on Tobi too..

So its kinda out of character, out of concept and ı dont think he is aint that confident about his genjutsu for using in this kinda of situations.. And still minato full of answers to his inferior genjutsu (contrary to other Sharingan users) .




UchihaX28 said:


> I don't think Kakashi would need taxing jutsu such as Raiton Bunshin to defeat Minato


So simply you were try to say/explain;

With out Raiton Beast, Raiden, Chidori, Kamui...Only basic sharingan genjutsu, sharingan precog and taijutsu good enough for takin down a Hokage in cqc ?  Kinda optimistic dont you think Sir.
Genjutsu aint have any feats on similar occasions before
Sharingan precog aint enough for Minato
And Taijutsu is questionable when gap is that close.




UchihaX28 said:


> Thing is, he doesn't need to be.


If he is gonna fight against Hokage Minato with full of his assets (FTG) yeah he is ..




UchihaX28 said:


> Any experienced Sharingan user would give Minato without FTG a good fight if not, actually defeat him.


There isnt many of them and Kakashi is the weakest in them. And his sharingan taxing faster and more tense than the others .. So its kinda wrong claim to finish.



Ryuzaki said:


> You are the one saying that Gaara reacted to V2 Ay, where and how is what I am asking. You also said that Tsunade kept pace with V2 Ay I am asking where and when that happened.


And ı told you.. But ı think with that kind of attidute.. you're gonna bump those feats  I'm already adressed those feats.. You can find it. 


Ryuzaki said:


> His body speed is *too* slow.


Nice show of subjectiveness


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 24, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> And ı told you.. But ı think with that kind of attidute.. you're gonna bump those feats  I'm already adressed those feats.. You can find it.


Please post scans of what you are talking about, I'm not going to rummage through hundreds of chapters because you said so.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Nice show of subjectiveness


 

Tell me more about how Minato's body speed >> V2 Ay

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 24, 2017)

Minato has used SM in multiple fights prior to the war arc 
Link removed

Not that it matters here since Senjutsu is restricted like the rest of Minato's arsenal


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato has used SM in multiple fights prior to the war arc
> Link removed
> 
> Not that it matters here since Senjutsu is restricted like the rest of Minato's arsenal


TBH I hate when people say Minato's SM is impractical , or his that his SM sucks. He's clearly proficient in it as he's a perfect sage, and doesn't need to summon ma or pa for help. It just seems like another reason for them to downplay him.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tell me more about how Minato's body speed >> V2 Ay


I dont need to.. Cuz ı didnt anything about that match-up in my last messages.. Im just sayin usin the word of "too slow" as statement is kinda double standart and baseless. 

And I aldready told my times before.. In Raw Speed yes V2 Ay might be superior.. (still not far away) but Minato still has better reaction and long distance shunshin feats. 

And you selection of scan is kinda bad  Cuz Minato reacted him very succesfuly and throw is kunai very fast and accurate. Sadly ı cant see any "too" in here. Since his timing still better.. 

And again this topic about Kakashi. 


Ryuzaki said:


> hundreds of chapters


You dont need to you can check from wikia for numbers of chapters  

Gaara stopped point blank Quottine drop of Raikage (When he was already at V2)
And Tsunade reacted to Madara's movements and attempts better than raikage in few occasions.. But , you can just try to remember.. How Raikage wouldnt able to block or even react/predict Madara's Katon Attack from air when Tsunade blocks them right at the time.


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## Dr. White (Jan 24, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato has used SM in multiple fights prior to the war arc
> Link removed
> 
> Not that it matters here since Senjutsu is restricted like the rest of Minato's arsenal


Wait what? Je literally says he hasn't used it much in combat because of his inefficiency...We saw him fight 3 high tiers and he never chose to use SM until fighting a god tier with a specific weakness to senjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 24, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Wait what? Je literally says he hasn't used it much in combat because of his inefficiency...We saw him fight 3 high tiers and he never chose to use SM until fighting a god tier with a specific weakness to senjutsu.


You said it's a nonfactor. It's obviously not if he's used it in fights before. He didn't use it against B, A, or Obito in those exact instances, but he used it in other fights while he was still alive. So what's your point exactly?


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## Santoryu (Jan 24, 2017)

Let's not be silly

The quantity and quality of Kakashi's in battle tactical feats are arguably the best in the manga. With an IQ that's been noted to be higher than Albert Einstein's (only matched by two Nara's), elucudating Minato's tactical superiority isn't difficult. It's impossible.


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## Dr. White (Jan 24, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> You said it's a nonfactor. It's obviously not if he's used it in fights before. He didn't use it against B, A, or Obito in those exact instances, but he used it in other fights while he was still alive. So what's your point exactly?


He said he "barely" used it in combat before. This was exrpessely because of his ineptitude and the reason for Kakashi's doubting remark about his aptitude. He obviously tried it out and it wasn't that useful in the heat of battle. Makes sense why it wasn't ever used vs Obito or Ei/Bee.  Bringing it out vs a god tier with a whole squad is completely different. It's essentially a non factor and unless something spurs Minato to need it for 1 second like he did vs Madara. It's impractical to spend time kneading for such a short lived boost.

You're taking a self admitted and vouched for (by kakashi) admittance of negative portrayal and spinning it into something positive. It's kinda similar to Izanami now that I think about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 25, 2017)

Minato needs time to enter SM, which he'll never have in a one vs one especially with the likes of kakashi, he could only prepp SM against madara cuz he was busy talking and it only lasted for a minute, even HE the user said he sucks at it, yet people think he can pull that in a heated fight like this


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 25, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I dont need to.. Cuz ı didnt anything about that match-up in my last messages.. Im just sayin usin the word of "too slow" as statement is kinda double standart and baseless.
> 
> And I aldready told my times before.. In Raw Speed yes V2 Ay might be superior.. (still not far away) but Minato still has better reaction and long distance shunshin feats.
> 
> ...


No it isn't, especially when it is accurate.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Gaara stopped point blank Quottine drop of Raikage (When he was already at V2)
> And Tsunade reacted to Madara's movements and attempts better than raikage in few occasions.. But , you can just try to remember.. How Raikage wouldnt able to block or even react/predict Madara's Katon Attack from air when Tsunade blocks them right at the time.
> 
> You dont need to you can check from wikia for numbers of chapters


Raikage was not moving at V2 speed in that attack, it was a flat out drop attack with the use of gravity. If it were as you said Sasuke wouldn't be able to defend himself.

You'll have to post pages of where she blocked Madara's attack, I'm not going to arbitrarily respond to this shit posting. You are making the argument, the onus of proof is on you my friend not me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 25, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> No it isn't, especially when it is accurate.
> 
> 
> Raikage was not moving at V2 speed in that attack, it was a flat out drop attack with the use of gravity. If it were as you said Sasuke wouldn't be able to defend himself.
> ...



seriously the dude said minato and kushina stopped kuramas raw strength lmao, dudes clearly wanking


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 25, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> If it were as you said Sasuke wouldn't be able to defend himself.


Why he was able to defend himself from first attack ? And you can clearly see Raikage's raiton armour pretty thick.. So When raiton armor released it should boost you physical abilities ... So this is only your claim.

Raiton Armour is so thick and background of the scene is full with motion effect.. So thinking bloodlustin Raikage make his killing/execution move with gravitational force only kinda funny.




Ryuzaki said:


> shit posting


But you always did 


Ryuzaki said:


> You'll have to


Im not gonna post cuz you're kinda proove your mindset on this topic.. Even claimin raikage just fall on Raikage in base form.. So ı cant imagine what you're gonna say about that feat..So basically ım not gonna post cuz of the topic's behalf . Cuz you're not objective right now Sir. Good days.



uchihakil said:


> said minato and kushina stopped kuramas raw strength lmao, dudes clearly wanking


make another explanation about that scene ?! But most of the feat goes to Kushina due to her grap on claw and her foot motion.


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## uchihakil (Jan 25, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Why he was able to defend himself from first attack ? And you can clearly see Raikage's raiton armour pretty thick.. So When raiton armor released it should boost you physical abilities ... So this is only your claim.
> 
> Raiton Armour is so thick and background of the scene is full with motion effect.. So thinking bloodlustin Raikage make his killing/execution move with gravitational force only kinda funny.
> 
> ...



you wanking minato thats my explanation, just cuz there exists a scene were ohnoki actually survived a meteor landing on him does'nt mean it should be considered in matchups cuz they are obvious PIS feats, kurama is faaar stronger than any human in naruto without SM or Rikudou chakra, the shovkwave he releases is faar above minato's strength capabilities talkless of his actual/direct physical attacks


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 25, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> PIS feats


Then say like this. Again PIS feats are not about my wank  I just adressed feat. And remember ı adressed cuz you said he has any strength feat near to Kakashi's and ı showed it.. And ı also never said ım certify this feat  Im just show it.. thats all 



uchihakil said:


> actually survived a meteor landing on him does'nt mean it should be considered in matchups


He survived not cuz of his pure strength cuz of his unique ability and that feat can be used as adressin that ability..


uchihakil said:


> you wanking minato thats my explanation


 Your personal opinion is not a fact about my personality. Or mine for you.. So keep sayin this just keep you to the ground in terms of morals even more.


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## uchihakil (Jan 25, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then say like this. Again PIS feats are not about my wank  I just adressed feat. And remember ı adressed cuz you said he has any strength feat near to Kakashi's and ı showed it.. And ı also never said ım certify this feat  Im just show it.. thats all
> 
> 
> He survived not cuz of his pure strength cuz of his unique ability and that feat can be used as adressin that ability..
> ...



Yea ohnoki's head is made of titaniun, sheesh, suit yourself dude


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 25, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yea ohnoki's head is made of titaniun, sheesh, suit yourself dude





JiraiyaFlash said:


> He survived not cuz of his pure strength cuz of his unique ability



Can you able to understand what did you read ? (or did you ever read) 
Or Are able to tune int the pattern of an argument ?! 

Im not adressed some strength or durability feat.. I just adressed his lightning (not as element as weight manipılation) ability.. And you're still find some similarity to titanium from my words ..


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## uchihakil (Jan 25, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Can you able to understand what did you read ? (or did you ever read)
> Or Are able to tune int the pattern of an argument ?!
> 
> Im not adressed some strength or durability feat.. I just adressed his lightning (not as element as weight manipılation) ability.. And you're still find some similarity to titanium from my words ..


*-snip-* ohnoki did'nt fucking lighten the second meteor which crash landed on the meteor that ohnoki + gaara barely stopped, the weight of the second meteor was as it is meaning it would break each  and every bone in ohnokis body upon crashing on the first meteor due to the shock , and then ohnoki will further be pasted by it, but somehow he survives, so dont gimme that lightened boulder crap, i dont know why the fuck i keep responding to you. This is the last, and i'm out


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 25, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> This is the last, and i'm out


I hope so too  

Dude you didnt elaborate as "2nd meteor" at your first message.. So ım directly guess 1st meteor feat naturally. 
And 2nd aint killed it him cuz 1st Meteor (which is already stopped) and Gaara's sand branches on 1st meteor.. Its create a airbag for ônoki.. So thats why ı dont even think that feat as durability.. And thats why ı responded that way. 

Kyuubi's Claw Feat aint same thing with 2nd Meteor feat.. One of them stopped with pure physicality (PIS or not ım not arguin that) but meteor tank feat is more rely on ninjutsu abilities than Physicality.. 

So your way to elaboration of your opion was kinda wrong or more like confusing .

And stop insulting me, just try to be a civilazed human being .


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 25, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> He said he "barely" used it in combat before. This was exrpessely because of his ineptitude and the reason for Kakashi's doubting remark about his aptitude. He obviously tried it out and it wasn't that useful in the heat of battle. Makes sense why it wasn't ever used vs Obito or Ei/Bee.  Bringing it out vs a god tier with a whole squad is completely different. It's essentially a non factor and unless something spurs Minato to need it for 1 second like he did vs Madara. It's impractical to spend time kneading for such a short lived boost.
> 
> You're taking a self admitted and vouched for (by kakashi) admittance of negative portrayal and spinning it into something positive. It's kinda similar to Izanami now that I think about it.


Baseless assumptions dude. He said he hadn't used it much, not that he used it once and it wasn't useful. What Minato's statement implies is he used it in battle at least a couple different times, likely for specific purposes. He didn't use it vs Obito or A and B because he didn't need to. Also, nothing says he didn't use it vs A in their other encounters

Kakashi said it wasn't Minato's forte. Forte= something you excel at. Him not excelling at it doesn't mean he's shit at it, frankly you're reaching. 

Minato saying it takes too long to use means little to nothing compared to other high-tier Shinobi. The Yondaime Hokage's entire fighting style revolves around being insanely fast. What's "slow" to Minato, is far from being slow to other ninja in his tier; he's called the Yellow Flash not the Yellow Turtle. 

His short time limit is the only real problem, but he still has ways to use SM effectively. Yondaime can just do what Nardo did for example; create a Rasengan in base then enter SM to supercharge it into a Senpo Cho Odama Rasengan


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Baseless assumptions dude. He said he hadn't used it much, not that he used it once and it wasn't useful. What Minato's statement implies is he used it in battle at least a couple different times, likely for specific purposes. He didn't use it vs Obito or A and B because he didn't need to. Also, nothing says he didn't use it vs A in their other encounters


It's not baseless Kishi literally expcitly denotes this in the scene and the subtext is literally right in your face. The reason he did not use SM very often in combat, and the reason Kakashi said he was trash is because it is not effective to use in combat. Once again you are trying to diminish the negative portrayal from both Minato and Kakashi regarding his aptitude and usage of SM.



> Kakashi said it wasn't Minato's forte. Forte= something you excel at. Him not excelling at it doesn't mean he's shit at it, frankly you're reaching.


Kakashi satirically brought it up..Kishi even drew the ...'s after implying Kakahsi was being respectfully modest to his sensei. I am not reaching for anything when Minato literally fucking explains the deficiencies with his SM gathering and why he hasn't used it across multiple battles.

You are the one reaching trying to spin Minato's words into something positive. In some translations Minato even says "I haven't actualy used it in an actual fight". The whole point of the scene is to denote it's not an effective option for him in a majority of battles.


> Minato saying it takes too long to use means little to nothing compared to other high-tier Shinobi. The Yondaime Hokage's entire fighting style revolves around being insanely fast. What's "slow" to Minato, is far from being slow to other ninja in his tier; he's called the Yellow Flash not the Yellow Turtle.


No you are creating some arbitrary standard for Minato that you just made up. Minato is the one admitting that it takes to long in the heat of combat. His reactions mean jackshit when he has to stand still and knead mid combat to gather nature energy and then balance it in his body. Once again him doing it in a team function to try and stop someone specifically weak to SM is not a good representative example for him using it in other battles, once again given the explicit text and subtext of the scene.



> His short time limit is the only real problem, but he still has ways to use SM effectively. Yondaime can just do what Nardo did for example; create a Rasengan in base then enter SM to supercharge it into a Senpo Cho Odama Rasengan


False. Naruto is a perfect sage, idk why you are equalizing him to Minato. Minato straight up said he suck at kneading the nature chakra and balancing it. Minato has to be completely still in order to enter SM as well. There is lioterally no point in Minato sp[ending time still trying to knead nature chakra when the boost SM gives to Rasengan is marginal at best. He isn't killing someone who can tank his regular rasengan with a baby amount of SM, and anyone he can already kill with FTG/Rasengan obviously doesn't need the SM boost added. It is literally a waste of time except in very specific situations.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Serene Grace (Jan 25, 2017)

Minato's a perfect sage too though....


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## Parallaxis (Jan 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Minato's a perfect sage too though....


Technically he is since he doesn't have the animal transformation, but by his own admission...

He hasn't used it for combat once
He's trash at it
It take a long time for him to knead the chakra for it
He can't maintain it for a long time
Wouldn't even be on par with Jiraiya's SM


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 25, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Why he was able to defend himself from first attack ? And you can clearly see Raikage's raiton armour pretty thick.. So When raiton armor released it should boost you physical abilities ... So this is only your claim.
> 
> Raiton Armour is so thick and background of the scene is full with motion effect.. So thinking bloodlustin Raikage make his killing/execution move with gravitational force only kinda funny.


His fall was a 'free-fall' not powered by his raiton armor or movement speed.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> But you always did
> 
> Im not gonna post cuz you're kinda proove your mindset on this topic.. Even claimin raikage just fall on Raikage in base form.. So ı cant imagine what you're gonna say about that feat..So basically ım not gonna post cuz of the topic's behalf . Cuz you're not objective right now Sir. Good days.


I'll take that as you conceding the argument then.



uchihakil said:


> seriously the dude said minato and kushina *stopped kuramas raw strength* lmao, dudes clearly wanking


Yeah, he's not making much sense anymore anyway, he's definitely shifted from his point and changed his argument a few times now. I'm really not taking him seriously now, but yeah...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 25, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> It's not baseless Kishi literally expcitly denotes this in the scene and the subtext is literally right in your face. The reason he did not use SM very often in combat, and the reason Kakashi said he was trash is because it is not effective to use in combat. Once again you are trying to diminish the negative portrayal from both Minato and Kakashi regarding his aptitude and usage of SM.
> 
> 
> Kakashi satirically brought it up..Kishi even drew the ...'s after implying Kakahsi was being respectfully modest to his sensei. I am not reaching for anything when Minato literally fucking explains the deficiencies with his SM gathering and why he hasn't used it across multiple battles.
> ...


I've seen multiple people call you out on trying to twist things to fit your agenda. No surprise you're doing the same here:

- Not excelling= horrible somehow
- Bringing fan translations that contradict the official viz ones, just because they fit your argument better
- Falsely assuming Senjutsu barely affects Rasengans when a databook hypes Senpo Cho Odama Rasengans to be mountain busters while regular ones have no such hype
- Saying Nardo is a perfect sage like it means something when Minato is also a perfect sage 

Never called Minato good with Senjutsu or anything of the like. I already said he likely only used SM for specific scenarios. Larger Rasengans for more dc would fit that description

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 26, 2017)

Same minato fans who claim itachi can't maintain susano for long (who managed to maintain susano for 8min 50secs) are here arguing that minato who on his own admission said he sucks ballz at it and only maintained it for like 3seconds while being in a group and his opponent (madara) talking are claiming minato can use SM, *smh*

Reactions: Funny 2


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## theRonin (Jan 26, 2017)

Kakashi solos no DKS required.

Edit: DMS*

Reactions: Like 1


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