# Lady Tokimi vs. Mad Jim Jaspers (616)



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

How would this battle go? I wanted to do something new since I wanted to use a different Tenchi Muyo character for once.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Mad Jim Jaspers rapes


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Lady Tokimi is the third choushin Goddess and sister of Tsunami and Washu, she might have a decent chance but Mad Jim is one hell of a Reality warper since he can ability to warp reality to his will, at the cost of his own sanity.

It can go either way, but for now I am going to abstain until there's more discussion on this fight.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

MJJ is an Omniversal reality warper. His weaker version from the 238 universe I think was able to basically become Eternity.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> MJJ is an Omniversal reality warper. His weaker version from the 238 universe *I think was able to basically become Eternity.*



No not really. Being 1 with the universe does not equal becoming Eternity.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

Considering he embodied the universe, and Eternity's avatar embodies the universe, yeah it pretty much does. 

Granted, he was not on the level of the Multiversal Eternity, but meh.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 23, 2009)

Jim's a universal threat and a universal reality warper, isn't he?

Not familiar with Tenchi Muyo!, though, and since it's one of the strongest anime verses, not sure.


----------



## Power16 (Jul 23, 2009)

Eternity in a Universal sense but True Eternity is the Multiverse containing the 616 verse. 238 MJJ was everything in his universe and his warping was starting to reach beyond his universe which is why he was killed by the CN.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

These kind of battles are unquantifiable.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

Lucaniel said:


> Jim's a universal threat and a universal reality warper, isn't he?
> 
> Not familiar with Tenchi Muyo!, though, and since it's one of the strongest anime verses, not sure.



Omniversal, actually.

Had he not been stopped, his warp would have devastated the entire Omniverse.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jul 23, 2009)

Lucaniel said:


> Jim's a universal threat and a universal reality warper, isn't he?



No, not this one. He was an omniversal threat.

Edit:
Lol Jaxx


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> Omniversal, actually.
> 
> Had he not been stopped, his warp would have devastated the entire Omniverse.



What sense of Omniversal? he can't effect what happens in say, The Jurassic Park verse.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> Considering he embodied the universe, and Eternity's avatar embodies the universe, yeah it pretty much does.
> 
> Granted, he was not on the level of the Multiversal Eternity, but meh.



So according to you when Jean Grey made Mastermind one with the universe he was Eternity? How can two eternity's exist at the same time.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jul 23, 2009)

hadomaru said:


> What sense of Omniversal? he can't effect what happens in say, The Jurassic Park verse.



All of Marvel, literally all of it. Even stuff we may not have even seen yet.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

hadomaru said:


> What sense of Omniversal? he can't effect what happens in say, The Jurassic Park verse.



The marvel omniverse =/= the omniverse.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Their was one sceen in the comics (I forgot which issue) where he play Earth 616 as a Chess Board. Each movement they make affects the course of actions each being will take. He would most likely win this one IMHO.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

If that's the case, then Tokimi is omniversal, as in, she can control the Tenchi Muyo omniverse....
edit: Just to be clear, i am not taking sides on this one.


----------



## Power16 (Jul 23, 2009)

Eternity is basically everything within that Universe, aka he embodies it and that's what 238 MJJ was described as. What Dark should of said was that 238 MJJ was described as what a Universal Eternity is described as then again that's what i understood of his comment because i've read the story..

edit,

hadomaru, everything within a verse doesn't constitute Omniverse unless its stated, marvel has Multiverses, Megaverses and the term Omniverse was used to described everything.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

wouldn't that make Beyonder an eternity?


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

In Marvel, the Omniverse is comprised by an infinite amount of Multiverses, which is comprised of an infinite amount of infinite universes.

Make what you will of that.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> In Marvel, the Omniverse is comprised by an infinite amount of Multiverses, which is comprised of an infinite amount of infinite universes.
> 
> Make what you will of that.



Basically Marvel's verse's go on for infinity, where as other multi-verse like DC for example have a limit...52 in DC's case.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2009)

Jaspers was the British Prime Minister. Beat that Tokimi.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 23, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> Omniversal, actually.
> 
> Had he not been stopped, his warp would have devastated the entire Omniverse.



Well, you'd require Kami-Tenchi to stop that....so she loses, I'd say.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Basically Marvel's verse's go on for infinity, where as other multi-verse like DC for example have a limit...52 in DC's case.



DC has an infinite multiverse as well.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Image Comics appears to have an infinite multiverse also.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Havoc said:


> DC has an infinite multiverse as well.



DC is limited to 52 earths/universes. It's not infinite anymore.


> After the publication of Infinite Crisis and 52, the Multiverse is again being used in print by DC Comics and consists of fifty-two alternate universes which are referred to by their Roman numeric designations of the alternate Earths within them ("New Earth", "Earth-1", "Earth-2", "Earth-3", etc.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 23, 2009)

Each universe has infinite dimensions.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Havoc said:


> Each universe has infinite dimensions.



Dimensions =/= Universes.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Then Tenchi Muyo has no multiversals in the Chousin by this logic.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Dimensions =/= Universes.



Infinite dimensions = infinite multiverse

which is what i said


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

I recall that Lord Choas mention that he can't be destory if the entire Universe that he resided in was by Nullifying it and his powers where beyond one Universe, into various other Universes.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

Was MJJ truly omniversal?  That's only a step below omnipotence, and there's still The Fury one step above him at the end.  And then you've got people saying he was only abstract in _one_ universe...


Anyways, the Choushin only have multiversal feats, mainly because the Tenchi series only has a multiverse.  If MJJ has omniversal feats then he takes it going by feats alone.  Otherwise it's a stalemate.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 24, 2009)

I believe some where it is stated that tenchi has an infitinete amount of Universes/ multiverses. But don't ask for proof.


----------



## Power16 (Jul 24, 2009)

Then don't bring it up...


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 24, 2009)

just thought you should think about it. Besides, this fight is unquantifiable.


----------



## ∅ (Jul 24, 2009)

I always liked this page.



Also, some canon Marvel cosmology.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 24, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> MJJ is an Omniversal reality warper. His weaker version from the 238 universe I think was able to basically become Eternity.



Their both very powerful since his 238 counterpart was able to warp his entire universe beyond recognition to such a degree that it became necessary to destroy the Earth-238 timeline completely just to stop the Jaspers' Warp. In Earth-616 his powers keep on growing at an omniversal scale that was unlimited. It was already stated that his 616 version is much stronger though.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 24, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> Was MJJ truly omniversal?  That's only a step below omnipotence, and there's still The Fury one step above him at the end.  And then you've got people saying he was only abstract in _one_ universe...



The Fury wasn't stronger than him and I don't even know what the second part of your post is supposed to mean.

He had multiversal level power and he was becoming a omniversal threat.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 24, 2009)

Havoc said:


> The Fury wasn't stronger than him



But wasn't he defeated by The Fury?



> and I don't even know what the second part of your post is supposed to mean.
> 
> He had multiversal level power and he was becoming a omniversal threat.



Hellspawn28 cleared that up.  He became abstract level in the Earth-238 universe, but the 616 version is multiversal with omniversal threats.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 24, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> But wasn't he defeated by The Fury?



Consider the circumstance around his defeat.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 24, 2009)

Unless Tokimi has a handy space where a universe used to exist I doubt she can kill Sir Jaspers in the same manner that Fury did.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Unless Tokimi has a handy space where a universe used to exist I doubt she can kill Sir Jaspers in the same manner that Fury did.



So he could warp/mold reality, but not create more of it or erase it ?

Two of the Choushin were about to create such a space (i.e. destroy the fabric of reality in a universe) by merely clashing too hard.  I think Tokimi would be able to erase the universe they're fighting in, thus putting MJJ into the situation that proved his downfall.

Unless he has any universe _destroying_ or _creating_ feats?  Because if all he's shown is the power to _change_ things/universes that already exist, then he'd be below the Choushin.


Again, I haven't read any of the comics, but if putting him in an area that a universe was erased in is enough to render him powerless, then that's the conclusion I come to.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> So he could warp/mold reality, but not create more of it or erase it ?
> 
> Two of the Choushin were about to create such a space (i.e. destroy the fabric of reality in a universe) by merely clashing too hard.  I think Tokimi would be able to erase the universe they're fighting in, thus putting MJJ into the situation that proved his downfall.
> 
> ...


Yes he can create more reality, and yes he can erase it, but he can not do anything in a complete void.  As long as there is something for him to manipulate he can do anything.

How would they know putting him in a void would make him powerless?


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Havoc said:


> Yes he can create more reality, and yes he can erase it, but he can not do anything in a complete void.  As long as there is something for him to manipulate he can do anything.



Are you sure he has universe creation/destruction feats?  Otherwise it sounds a bit plothole-ish . 



> How would they know putting him in a void would make him powerless?



Infinite calculations in a finite amount of time .  She could run every possible scenario and find the one that defeats him.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

He was becoming a omniversal threat and he had multiversal level reality manipulation.  You really think he can't destroy or create a universe with these powers?


How is it a plothole?


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Considering his warp was stated as being capable of destroying the Omniverse...


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Havoc said:


> He was becoming a omniversal threat and he had multiversal level reality manipulation.  You really think he can't destroy or create a universe with these powers?
> 
> 
> How is it a plothole?



But he couldn't do anything more against The Fury because he was in a space that used to have a universe in it ?

It seems as though he could _change_ reality, but not create or destroy it.  Otherwise, why not just make more reality or create a universe to warp in that empty space?  If he has any universe/reality creation or destruction feats though, then that theory is dead .


And was it destroying the omniverse, or just warping it beyond repair?


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)




----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Your scan itself posed MJJ as a "Sculpture of Reality" who had "run out of clay", and you're the one who stated that MJJ couldn't do anything in a complete void .

Throw Tokimi in a complete void (e.g. The nothingness that was there before the Choushin created the Tenchi-verse) and she can still use her powers.  

That alone seems to put the Choushin on a higher level than MJJ.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Yet MJJ was stated as capable of outright destroying the Omniverse...


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> Your scan itself posed MJJ as a "Sculpture of Reality" who had "run out of clay", and you're the one who stated that MJJ couldn't do anything in a complete void .
> 
> Throw Tokimi in a complete void (e.g. The nothingness that was there before the Choushin created the Tenchi-verse) and she can still use her powers.
> 
> That alone seems to put the Choushin on a higher level than MJJ.



Are you new to debating, or reading, for that matter?

I never posted a scan.  Yes, I did say he couldn't do anything in a void, how that leads you to believe that means he can't create a universe from pre-existing reality, or destroy a universe, I don't know...

The Chousin being able to use their powers in a void does not put them on a higher level, it only means they are able to use there powers differently.  This has nothing to do with the current discussion anyway.

Save the facepalm for your own ignorance of comics and lack of ability to comprehend what is being explained to you.

Thanks.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

I have never seen Havoc angry before. :amazed


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

I blame KMC.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

KMC is a rather frustrating place.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> Yet MJJ was stated as capable of outright destroying the Omniverse...



The Choushin could destroy the Tenchi multiverse, which would be the Tenchi omniverse since that's all there is.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the term omniverse.  All it is is every universe in that verse's existence.  Claiming that MJJ would have affected the Tenchi-verse, DC-verse, D&D-verse is infringement on the powers that be in those universes.

Some verses have only one universe with an omnipotent being, but would you consider that omnipotent weaker than MJJ because there's only one universe to affect?  Likewise the Choushin share the same level of power as MJJ (being able to affect all that is), except that they've also shown the ability to use their powers in a situation MJJ couldn't.





Havoc said:


> Are you new to debating, or reading, for that matter?



No, simply unfamiliar with Marvel and DC comics .



> I never posted a scan.  Yes, I did say he couldn't do anything in a void, how that leads you to believe that means he can't create a universe from pre-existing reality, or destroy a universe, I don't know...



Sorry about that, it was actually Onomatopoeia's scan.  But the ramifications of that scan still stand.



> The Chousin being able to use their powers in a void does not put them on a higher level, it only means they are able to use there powers differently.  This has nothing to do with the current discussion anyway.



It kinda does.

1.  Tokimi places MJJ in the nothingness that was.

2.  MJJ can't to do anything in said "un-space" while Tokimi still has her powers.

3.  Tokimi wins this bout.



> Save the facepalm for your own ignorance of comics and lack of ability to comprehend what is being explained to you.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

You realize we were no longer discussing who would win, but instead working on trying to get you up to speed on what MJJ was capable of, right?

Anyway...

If she can figure out to take MJJ to a place where there is no reality before he can win, then sure.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

Havoc said:


> You realize we were no longer discussing who would win, but instead working on trying to get you up to speed on what MJJ was capable of, right?
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> If she can figure out to take MJJ to a place where there is no reality before he can win, then sure.



I was just trying to get a good comparison of the two .

But on that note, who would be more powerful than MJJ in Marvel?  Just give me his place in that verse (like between x and y) and I think I'll be pretty much up to date .


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Not many are above MJJ in Marvel.

Living Tribunal, HOM Scarlet Witch(I think), Scathan, those are all I can think of at the moment.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

LT, that's about it.

Scarlet Witch _might_ be at the height or her powers.

Yea, Scathan too, but we'll probably never see him again.

Idk if Tiamut is either, stopped reading about the Horde and all that.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2009)

So basically:

1.  TOAA
2.  Living Tribunal
3 & 4.  HoM Scarlet Witch and Scathan
5.  Mad Jim Jaspers


That is pretty damn high.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Scathan is more powerful than the Living Tribunal...Sadly.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 25, 2009)

Don't forget PR Beyonder also, who is pretty much the strongest Marvel character right next to TOAA. It sucks that the writer left back in 86 (Maybe 87) and made him lost his powers.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually, Jim Shooter, the Editor in Chief, creator and writer of Beyonder and the Secret Wars I and II, was fired, and the new Editor in Chief retconned both Molecule Man and Beyonder.

That is why I did not include them, they were retconned.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 25, 2009)

Wasn't Franklin Richards >= MJJ?


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Not to my knowledge.

Franklin Richards is a Celestial at best, a single Celestial is not on par with MJJ.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 25, 2009)

Hrm, but I thought that he was an omega level mutant with reality warping powers, while MJJ was only alpha.

Normally you can say that MJJ is simply more adept at using his powers and thus more powerful, but IIRC Richards at one point warped himself into competency. Of course, I'm no expert.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

MJJ's level is not stated I do not believe, but him being anything other than Omega is...Well it's stupid.


----------



## Pintsize (Jul 25, 2009)

Oh, thought he was a stated Alpha.

Silly me.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2009)

Actually the DC continuity has more universes than just the 52, for example Mxy's 5th dimension is described as being "outside the multiverse", then there are the various Vertigo realms which are multiverses in themselves.



Dark-Jaxx said:


> Yet MJJ was stated as capable of outright destroying the Omniverse...



Actually it was more of a chain reaction with the warping effect spreading throughout the universes. Like a lit match can eventually burn down a forest.

Anyway MJJ might have more raw power, but Tokimi has more intelligence and wisdom, she could probably outsmart him and find his weakness.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

Is Wildstorm part of the 52?


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually it was more of a chain reaction with the warping effect spreading throughout the universes. Like a lit match can eventually burn down a forest.
> 
> Anyway MJJ might have more raw power, but Tokimi has more intelligence and wisdom, she could probably outsmart him and find his weakness.



IIRC, it was described as an expanding wave, and him destroying it was likened to a domino effect, universes would continue to fall at an increasing rate until nothing was left.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2009)

Havoc said:


> Is Wildstorm part of the 52?



It's one of them, but the multiverse(s) in Wildstorm are separate, I think



Dark-Jaxx said:


> IIRC, it was described as an expanding wave, and him destroying it was likened to a domino effect, universes would continue to fall at an increasing rate until nothing was left.



So basically what I said, a chain reaction


----------



## noobthemusical (Jul 25, 2009)

Havoc said:


> LT, that's about it.
> 
> Scarlet Witch _might_ be at the height or her powers.
> 
> ...



And Franklin Richards at full potential would babyshakel, since he should be MMJ and can make something out of nothing or so I have heard

Hell he might be able to match him at his current (read before "losing" his powers (or putting up a mental block to seal them)) power level


Also is vertigo still part of the 52? I heard its now in a different multiverse.
Which makes my saying of the reason God doesn't help the DC heroes is cause she doesn't like it when you call her a man
false


----------



## Power16 (Jul 25, 2009)

MJJ powers were also suppose to grow at an exponential rate. Franklin potential and powerset would eventually led him to be greater than MJJ.

As far as where MJJ rank without bringing cosmic items, other one shot character like Alien Entity are higher, Jamie Braddock at one point was on MJJ level and the people who gives Cosmic Cube their powers might be higher too.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually the DC continuity has more universes than just the 52, for example Mxy's 5th dimension is described as being "outside the multiverse", then there are the various Vertigo realms which are multiverses in themselves.



There's also the 4th (now 5th, but ignored World). According to Rip Hunter in Booster Gold, the multiverse would eventually develop into something he called "the megaverse".

As for VERTIGO, DiDio was asked back in an interview at a con whether they are a part of the DC multiverse, and he answered "no", still sticking to the "no DC/VERTIGO policy". He added though that there are "worlds" in the multiverses where its tone _resembles_ that of the VERTIGO line.

Though, some VERTIGO stories, Sandman most prominently, remain in canon.



Havoc said:


> Is Wildstorm part of the 52?



Yes, it is. The Bleed is what separates the DC universes from each other in the new multiverse now.

Wildstorm WAS its own multiverse, even with versions of the DC continuum. IIRC, the info is detailed in Planetary (which is AWESOME) -- the Wildstorm multiverse is liken to that of a snowflake and there's a computer that "calculates" new universes for the development of the best possible future course of the "main" universe.

Then Infinite Crisis hit DC and Void recreated the Wildstorm universe. Both events put them now in the same multiverse.

Though, what became of the rest of the snowflake Wildstorm multiverse compared to the main one. . . , well, I don't follow that in-depth.

Hopefully, Planetary #27 will give some reference to this.

As for reality warpers and cosmics. . . that's a whole 'nother can of worms there.


----------



## Havoc (Jul 25, 2009)

noobthemusical said:


> And Franklin Richards at full potential would babyshakel, since he should be MMJ and can make something out of nothing or so I have heard
> 
> Hell he might be able to match him at his current (read before "losing" his powers (or putting up a mental block to seal them)) power level



FR was never as strong as MJJ or close to it.

As for potential, if we go with Omega than he could surpass MJJ, but if we go with him being as strong as a Celestial than probably not...we wont know until it happens if he will ever be as strong or stronger than MJJ, and it will probably not happen.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> So basically what I said, a chain reaction



No, an expanding warp that destroys universes at an increasing rate, at least that is how I remember it. That's not a chain reaction.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 27, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> So basically:
> 
> 1. TOAA
> 2. Living Tribunal
> ...


You shouldn't put too much faith in that though since he's an eXcallibur character and doesn't really effect the rest of 616verse.Same as Wanda whose feat was amped in that series.


----------

