# Naruto and Sasuke Progression Tier-List



## Turrin (Oct 28, 2016)

So when I was recently voting in the Great Debate Tier List, thread it got me thinking about Rankings again, and how to refine/revise my own to be more accurate. Eventually I came up with the idea to do a Tier-Ranking based on the progression of Naruto and Sasuke's characters throughout the manga.

I'm going to start at the Immortals arc, and here's the reason why: To establish Tiers I think we need to first qualify the major roles. In the Immortals arc the roles are clear.

Naruto is the MC
Kakashi is the main benchmark
Kakuzu is the main antagonist

Simply put the strongest guy/gal around on the side of the MC in the Immortals arc is Kakashi. He is the main benchmark. We know Naruto starts out the immortals arc weaker than Kakashi, because only after significant training does he end up around Kakashi's "level" by the end of the immortals arc. Now comparing Kakashi to Kakuzu, Kakashi may have been able to beat Kakuzu with Kamui at the end of the arc, or he may not have, but he could only even get that far due to advantageous circumstance being on his side, he had the help of Team 10, Ambush, Prep/Strategy, etc... Same thing with Naruto, he was able to beat Kakuzu after achieving a similar level as Kakashi, but he could only do so with a significant amount of advantages; Kakuzu was down 2 hearts already and he had help from Yamato & Kakashi. This to me suggest Kakuzu is a Tier above Kakashi. So this sets out scale as it were:


Tier
Kakuzu

Tier
Kakashi [Wind-Arc]
Naruto [End of Wind Arc]

Tier
Naruto [Start of Wind Arc]

We'll come back to this, but first were going to work on our next scale. In the Uchiha Brothers Arc, we have new roles

Sasuke is the MC
Orochimaru is the main benchmark
Itachi is the main antagonist

Sasuke starts the arc weaker than Orochimaru, we know this because even after Sasuke absorbs Orochimaru, Karin doubts that Sasuke had the strength to defeat Orochimaru after seeing him face Deidara; later in the manga it's outright confirmed by Suigetsu that Sasuke only defeated Orochimaru because he was weakened. We also know via various different sources that Itachi is superior to Orochimaru. It is debatable whether Sasuke reaches Orochimaru's level by the end of the Arc, but there are certainly arguments that can be brought forward to assert that this model conforms to the one above. Sasuke believing he could defeat Itachi, seems pretty ridiculous if he wasn't at least around Orochimaru's level at the time. Sasuke beating Deidara, albeit barely, who Akatsuki seemed to believe at least had a shot against Orochimaru. Sasuke inheriting a great many of Orochimaru's powers through absorption, and so on. And Sasuske does "beat" Itachi with the right sizable advantages, Itachi is weakened, outside help, and has no killer inten So this sets our scale as:

Tier
Itachi

Tier
Orochimaru
Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS]

Tier
Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc]


Moving on to the next arc. We have the roles as

Naruto is MC
Jiraiya is the main benchmark
Pain is the main antagonist

Naruto is clearly inferior to Jiraiya at the start of the arc, we know this from the fact that the entire point of the Senjutsu training is to get closer to Jiraiya's level. Jiraiya is also clearly inferior to Pain considering his defeat at Pain's hands. Albeit we are told Jiraiya can beat Pain with the right amount of advantages, knowledge and possibly battlefield advantages. Naruto also manages to defeat Pain with significant advantages after completing his Senjutsu training. So this sets up:

Tier
Pain

Tier
Jiraiya
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]

Tier
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc]

Moving on to the next arc. We have the roles as

Sasuke is the MC
Itachi is the main benchmark
Danzo is the main antagonist

Sasuke is clearly inferior to Itachi starting out the arc, as he just starting to learn Mangekyo, in-fact arguably Sasuke's progression for his new power start in the beginning of the Pain-Arc where he was even more inferior. Itachi being inferior to Danzo is more debatable, but given the hype that Itachi places on Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami later in the manga, as well as the fact that Koto-Crow One-Shot Edo-Itachi, the case can certainly be made. Sasuke reaching Itachi's general level by the end of the arc is also debatable, but he does learn Susano'o up to Stage 4 and while he's still inferior in Genjutsu, he becomes superior in Ninjutsu & Amaterasu with Enton. So the scale is

Tier
Danzo

Tier
Itachi
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]

Tier
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc]

Next we have the Start of the War-Arc. At the beginning of the war the roles are

Sasuke & Naruto are the MC
Minato is the main benchmark
Obito is the main antagonist

Obito is a main antagonist for both Naruto and Sasuke, causing the death of both of their parents. He also is ultimately the main enemy they face with BM/KCM and EMS respectively. And Minato the main hero who took Obito on, in-fact Minato actually beat MS-Obito and later still was essentially the driving force for saving the Alliance against Rinnegan-Obito, and merking him again. Granted there were circumstances there, but I do think it can be argued Minato maintained his lead over Obito, even after Obito gained Rinnegan, at the very least by gaining KCM/BM powers. Though eventually Obito did become outright superior to Minato by becoming the Juubi-Jinchuuriki. Naruto and Sasuke reaching Minato's level is debatable, but I do think by the time they learned to combine their Senjutsu skills with their major powers (EMS and SM) they at least were around Minato's level, and they were able to beat Juubito under heavily advantaged circumstances I.E. help from each other and outside help. So the scale is:

Tier
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier
Naruto [Start of War]
Sasuke [Start of War]

Then we have the War Climax. And the roles are:

Sasuke and Naruto are the MC
Main benchmark is Ashura and Indra
Main antagonist is Kaguya

Kaguya is the main antagonist that Sasuke and Naruto face after gaining Hagoromo's power ups. She's also arguably the main and final antagonist of the entire Madara. Ashura and Indra are probably suppose to be the main benchmarks here as the original incarnations of Naruto and Sasuke that represent the two halves that can come together to defeat Kaguya with the Coffin Seal. We know Naruto and Sasuke are inferior to those 2 going into this, as they are defeated by Madara, but are likely roughly around the two of them by the end of this considering the comparisons drawn and powers granted by Hagoromo. I also assume Ashura and Indra could have also defeated Kaguya under the right circumstances w/ numerous advantages the same way Naruto and Sasuke did. But ultimately this is the most rushed junction of the series, so it's hard to say for sore.  The biggest question i'll probably get here though is why not Hashirama and Madara, and the answer to this for me personally is that Hashirama probably fits too, but Madara doesn't as he went beyond the traditional Indra avatar by taking Ashura/Hashirama power and Juubi, which doesn't fit Sasuke. Anyway the scale here is:

Tier
Kaguya

Tier
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]

Tier
Naruto [Pre-Hagoromo Power]
Sasuke [Pre-Hagoromo Power]

---------------------

So now comes the task of reasonably combining these scales.

Let's start in reverse order and work our way back. Simply because that's how we ended the above portion.

So connecting the final scale, to the second to last scale is easy. Why because Naruto and Sasuke prior to Hagoromo-Power up are the same exact character as Naruto and Sasuke at the end of the Obito fight as nether gained any significant strength after that before the Hagoromo power up. So the only other question that remains is, is Obito [Juubi] on the same general level as Naruto [End of the Manga] and Sasuke [End of the Manga], to which I'd say that's a little tougher to determine, but given Sasuke and Naruto's performance against Madara, who was stronger than Juubito, chances are they are at least around the same level as Juubito. So we end up with:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Tier 1
Kaguya

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier 3
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Naruto [Start of War]
Sasuke [Start of War]





So let's move down to the next scale:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier
Danzo

Tier
Itachi
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]

Tier
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc]




Sasuke at the start of the War-Arc before he transplants Itachi's Sharingan and starts learning it's powers is again the same as Sasuke at the end of Kages Arc, so we can combine those 2. The question is, is Danzo on par with Minato, Sasuke [End of Obito Fight], and Naruto [End of Obito Fight]. To which I say unless Kishi really wants Koto to be seen as the most broken thing on earth i'm just not seeing it. So unlike above I don't think we can combine those Tiers. So we end up with


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier 1
Kaguya

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier 3
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Danzo

Tier 5
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
Itachi

Tier 6
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc]




Onto the next scale:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier
Pain

Tier
Jiraiya
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]

Tier
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc]




Naruto [End of Pain Arc] was stated to be stronger than Sasuke [Start of Kages Arc], additionally Naruto [End of Kages Arc] was stated to be roughly equal to Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]. Naruto shouldn't have increased in strength much from the End of Pain Arc to End of Kages Arc, as he didn't really have any real time to improve, nor were any improvements really highlighted. So I think we can say that Naruto [End of Pain-Arc] is around the level of Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]. Now Pain being at least around the level of Danzo is something I don't think I even need to defend. However one might take more issue with Naruto at the Start of the Pain-Arc being around Sasuke Start of the Pain-Arc level, but remember Sasuke had lost CS/Oro's powers and had no experience with Mangekyo, so he probably was close to Naruto at that point again. So we end up with:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier 1
Kaguya

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier 3
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Pain
Danzo

Tier 5
Itachi
Jiraiya
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]

Tier 6
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc]
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc]




Moving onto the next scale:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier
Itachi

Tier
Orochimaru
Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS]

Tier
Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc]




Now we already have Itachi in Tier 5, so that pushes Orochimaru and Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS] a Tier down. And Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc] is probably the same as Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc], as Sasuke start of Pain-Arc also lost Orochimaru's powers, albeit he also lost CS, but he has some minor Mangekyo perks and greater exp to make up for it enough that they are probably close enough. So we end up with


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier 1
Kaguya

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier 3
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Pain
Danzo

Tier 5
Itachi
Jiraiya
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]

Tier 6
Orochimaru
Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS]

Tier 7
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc]
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc]
Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc]




Moving onto the next scale:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Tier
Kakuzu

Tier
Kakashi [Wind-Arc]
Naruto [End of Wind Arc]

Tier
Naruto [Start of Wind Arc]




Naruto End of the Wind-Arc is basically the same thing as Naruto at the start of the Pain-Arc, as Naruto didn't have any time to really improve all that much after that, maybe an ever so slight improvement due to exp gained, but they are the same tier. The question is, is Kakuzu on Orochimaru's level. This is a-lot more debatable and I expect to get some shit for this one, but on the model i'm playing with here, I just don't see enough space for an entire tier to fit between Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS] and Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc] for an entire tier to fit between them. Maybe on a very narrow tier list one could do so, but I think were going for more broad tiers here, so more than an entire tier being between then maybe we could say Kakuzu is towards the bottom while Orochimaru is towards the top. So anyway we end up with:


Tier 1
Kaguya

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito [Juubi-Jin]

Tier 3
Minato [KCM/BM]
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Pain
Danzo

Tier 5
Itachi
Jiraiya
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]

Tier 6
Orochimaru
Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS]
Kakuzu

Tier 7
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc] / Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc]
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc] / Naruto [End of Wind Arc]
Kakashi [Wind-Arc]

Tier 8
Naruto [Start of Wind Arc]

-----

Okay so now that we got the general frame-work for this Tier list model, lets try and fit other characters into it. Bare in mind Tier 8 is just going to be a place holder for those bellow Tier 7, not actually all characters being the same level in that tier, I'm not going to go into heavy detail on each choice, but I base the placements on how they compare to each Naruto and Sasuke incarnation as well as the Benchmarks or Villains (also bare in mind these aren't in any particular order:

Tier 1
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Madara

Tier 2
Ashura
Indra
Hashirama
Naruto [End of Manga]
Sasuke [End of Manga]
Obito

Tier 3
Minato
Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
Naruto [End of Obito Fight]

Tier 4
Pain
Hanzo
Danzo
Kabuto
Tobirama

Tier 5
Jiraiya
Itachi
Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
Naruto [End of Pain Arc]
Killer-B
Gengetsu
Mu

Tier 6
Orochimaru
Hiruzen [Old]
Onoki
Tsunade
Sasori
Sandaime-Raikage
Sasuke [End of Uchiha Brothers Arc, but before loss of Oro/CS]
Gaara
Yagura
Kakuzu
Deidara
Ei
Sandaime-Kazekage

Tier 7
Rasa
Mei
Sasuke [Start of Pain Arc] / Sasuke [Start of Uchiha Brothers Arc]
Naruto [Start of Pain Arc] / Naruto [End of Wind Arc]
Kakashi [Wind-Arc]
Kisame
Darui
Mifune
Kitsuchi


There are some characters I left out because I feel they are difficult to rank, such as War-Arc Kakashi and Gai, due to their triumphs. Konan, Shisui, White-Fang, Hamura, Zetsu, etc... due to lack of panel time.[/SPOILER]

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Creative 1


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2016)

I don't think this is a bad list and I like how you broke everything down, but I have some major questions.

The most glaring issue is that you have the 3rd Kazekage on the same tier as Sasori. Yet there's stuff like J-dog a tier above Oro & Tobirama a tier above Bee. Sasori literally owns a puppet of that Kazekage. How is Sasori w/ Puppet Sandaime generally comparable to Sandaime Kazekage when Sasori killed Sandaime Kazekage _without_ that puppet?

What I would do is take Orochimaru & Tsunade (assuming CE & War Arc respectively) and move them into tier five. Sasori too. I'd also move both Raikages there, but we'll probably never agree on that so it's w/e. Then, I'd take Itachi & Bee and move them into tier 4. Also, maybe make two Ōnokis? Stone Will is in tier 5, back problems stays where you have him.

*Edit:* I noticed that the gaps between tiers 2 & 3 and tiers 3 & 4 are kinda big. I'd add two more tiers, or even bridge tiers. In between 2 & 3 goes 8th Gate Gai & DMS Kakashi. In between 3 & 4 goes Rejuvenated Edo Nagato. BTW Hashirama is not on the same tier as Jūbito & Jesusruto. Both of those characters have been explicitly stated as superior to him, so he needs to move down.


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## TRN (Oct 28, 2016)

Adult Naruto/Sasuke would rekt Hashirama dude..wtf am I'm reading


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2016)

TRN said:


> Adult Naruto/Sasuke would rekt Hashirama dude..wtf am I'm reading


Adult Naruto and Sasuke aren't ranked...So I don't know what your reading


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Adult Naruto and Sasuke aren't ranked...So I don't know what your reading





Turrin said:


> Tier 2
> Ashura
> Indra
> Hashirama
> ...


Sasuke & Naruto are adults at the end of the manga (chapter 700).


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't think this is a bad list and I like how you broke everything down, but I have some major questions.
> 
> The most glaring issue is that you have the 3rd Kazekage on the same tier as Sasori. Yet there's stuff like J-dog a tier above Oro & Tobirama a tier above Bee. Sasori literally owns a puppet of that Kazekage. How is Sasori w/ Puppet Sandaime generally comparable to Sandaime Kazekage when Sasori killed Sandaime Kazekage _without_ that puppet?


The Data-books make it seem like Sasori had an extraordinarily difficult time defeating Sandaime, so I believe the two were very close in strength, perhaps close enough where under other circumstances things could have ended differently with Sandaime's victory. Granted Sasori is stronger now that he has Sandaime-Puppet, but I don't think it's like having Sandaime-Puppet is suppose to be equal to having all of Sandaime's power at his command, considering Sandaime-Kazekage Puppet while certainly deadly, especially with the poison Sasori added, in no way demonstrated strength far greater than the other Kazekages, so I think Sandaime > Sandaime Puppet. Additionally Sasori did not show the ability to use say 100 puppets at the same time as commanding Sandaime's Satetsu, so it's not like his powers stack, and 100 Puppets was still called his strongest Jutsu; so I while adding Sandaime made Sasori more versatile and a bit stronger, I don't think it made him way stronger. So to me it's more like Sandaime is at the bottom of Tier 6 and Sasori is close to the top.

I do believe the gap between Jiraiya and Orochimaru is greater. Tobirama on the other hand is more debatable.



> What I would do is take Orochimaru & Tsunade (assuming CE & War Arc respectively) and move them into tier five. Sasori too. I'd also move both Raikages there, but we'll probably never agree on that so it's w/e. Then, I'd take Itachi & Bee and move them into tier 4. Also, maybe make two Ōnokis? Stone Will is in tier 5, back problems stays where you have him.


There's really no way I can reconcile any of those characters being in Tier 5 with the model i established here. Orochimaru is set in Tier 6 and Itachi Tier 5 via the model itself, as I explained in the intro. Onoki is suppose to be inferior to Orochimaru, even if I say he improved by getting his will back there is no way it was enough to put him a tier ahead of Orochimaru, and he lost to Mu mid diff, who also didn't have his will at the time. Also there is no way in my mind that ether Raikage is on the same tier as Tier 5 incarnations of Naruto and Sasuke. At best Ei would have beaten a much weaker Sasuke w/ extreme diff, at worse he could have lost extreme diff, so him being anywhere near a much stronger Sasuke is ridiculous to me. Like wise Sandaime was defeated by a mere SM-Naruto clone, the clone had some advantages and Sandaime probably wasn't at his best as an Edo, but still it was a fucking clone, there's no way that guy is suppose to be on par with the real Naruto post-Senjutsu training.



> I noticed that the gaps between tiers 2 & 3 and tiers 3 & 4 are kinda big. I'd add two more tiers, or even bridge tiers. In between 2 & 3 goes 8th Gate Gai & DMS Kakashi. In between 3 & 4 goes Rejuvenated Edo Nagato. BTW Hashirama is not on the same tier as Jūbito & Jesusruto. Both of those characters have been explicitly stated as superior to him, so he needs to move down.


Being superior doesn't mean a different Tier imo. A different tier exists when there is a large gap. Juubito was superior to Edo-Hashirama, but Madara feared Edo-Hashirama ability to take Juubito on enough to personally distract him, and Edo-Hashirama was much less impressive than Living Hashirama. Best thing we saw from Edo-Hashirama was Mokujin, which is nothing compared to living Hashirama's Senpo Shin Suusenju.


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## Rocky (Oct 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Being superior doesn't mean a different Tier imo. A different tier exists when there is a large gap.




It's asinine to think that the gap between Orochimaru & Jiraiya is larger than the gap between Hashirama & Jūbito or SPSM Naruto. Orochimaru wouldn't constantly brag about being better than Jiraiya if there was a large gap, and don't bring up that "villain boasting" excuse either; Orochimaru was Itachi's enemy as well, and the Sannin knew he was inferior. 


Turrin said:


> Granted Sasori is stronger now that he has Sandaime-Puppet, but I don't think it's like having Sandaime-Puppet is suppose to be equal to having all of Sandaime's power at his command


Satestu was Suna's (and therefore Sandaime Kazekage's) greatest weapon. Sasori may have struggled with Sandaime Kazekage but he still won. Yet you're telling me that if you give Sasori the Kazekage's best shit, add extremely lethal poison to it, and then add a bunch of weapons & traps to the puppet's body that Sandaime didn't have, Sasori still wouldn't be a tier above him. Yet Jiraiya is a tier above the other Sannin...


Turrin said:


> Madara feared Edo-Hashirama ability to take Juubito on enough to personally distract him, and Edo-Hashirama was much less impressive than Living Hashirama. Best thing we saw from Edo-Hashirama was Mokujin, which is nothing compared to living Hashirama's Senpo Shin Suusenju.


I think you just made that up. Madara wanted to fight Hashirama because he was obsessed with fighting Hashirama, not because he was scared of Hashirama beating Jūbito. Why the fuck would Madara care if Hashirama took down Jūbito? Madara & Obito weren't on the same team at that point. Moreover, Hashirama's Shinsūsenju is _nothing _compared to the Bijūdama we saw from the second form Jūbi, and that was nothing compared to the Bijūdama that Venasaur Jūbi could use. Jūbito could use four of those at the same time...


Turrin said:


> At best Ei would have beaten a much weaker Sasuke w/ extreme diff, at worse he could have lost extreme diff, so him being anywhere near a much stronger Sasuke is ridiculous to me.


The only difference between Danzō-fight Sasuke and Ay-fight Sasuke is two stages of Susanoo. "Much stronger" is overexaggerating. Also, match-up & circumstances. Kagutsuchi Susanoo hard-counters Ay, and Ay was overly emotional at that time because of Bee's "death," which is probably why he swung right into Kagutsuchi with no regard for his own well-being (Darui & Cee were _surprised_ for a reason). Match-up & circumstances matter. Sasori lost to Chiyo & Sakura, Obito got no-diffed by Minato, Kisame beat Killer Bee who you have two tiers higher, the Ambush Squad trolled Deidara, etc. 


Turrin said:


> Like wise Sandaime was defeated by a mere SM-Naruto clone


What a disingenuous point. Sandaime ate up Datclone's Rasenshuriken and outlasted KCM. Raikage would have won if Dodai hadn't pulled Naruto out of the way of Raikage's punch. Oh, and Kabuto was controlling Ay at that time, and he didn't know about the Raikage's weakness to the Ippon Nukite.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ARGUS (Oct 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tier 1
> Kaguya
> Hagoromo
> Madara


Kaguya is a tier above both
Jin hagoromo would be a tier above Madara 




> Tier 2
> Ashura
> Indra
> Hashirama
> ...


Juubito was a level above hashirama. Fact 
So are the others, 
He should move down 

Naruto and sasuke can move up 


> Tier 3
> Minato
> Sasuke [End of Obito Fight]
> Naruto [End of Obito Fight]


Good 
Though BSM naruto and BM minato are a tier above sasuke here 




> Tier 4
> Pain
> Hanzo
> Danzo
> ...


Hanzo and Danzo should move down 


> Tier 5
> Jiraiya
> Itachi
> Sasuke [End of Kages Arc]
> ...


Good 
Though third raikage should definitely be added here


> Tier 6
> Orochimaru
> Hiruzen [Old]
> Onoki
> ...


Third raikage and yagura should move up 
Kisame needs to be here not the tier below


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

@Turrin 

As I read thru it I finally thought we would agree on the tiers but as I look thru it there are some glaring problems 

1. Hashirama being on the same tier as Juubito , Naruto, Sasuke with Rikudo power ups 

Hashirama flat out admits Juubito is out of his league and matter of fact Juubito is supposed to be seen as a culmination of the powers that Hashirama/Madara have combined then we see a Madara with Rinnegan overpowering or least having an advantage over Hashirama 

Remember by the end of VOTE 2 Naruto could channel all of the world 's energy and Sasuke was able to manipulate the 9 Jin chakra to the point of being compared to Rikudo himself their abilities were directly given to them by the Sage to take on Kaguya the strongest character in the history of the verse 

Those 2 should be on the tier below Juubito , Naruto , Sasuke yet above Minato , Sasuke ,Naruto end of war 


2. Muu, Killer Bee, Troll are being overrated they have shown nothing that puts them above the level of Orochimaru  , Tsunade the low
Budget trans Itachi/Jiraiya should be on a tier on their own with Naruto/Sasuke Sage powers MS/SM are better than what Muu, Troll, Bee have in their aresenal 

3. Deidara shouldn't be on a higher tier than Sasuke at all considering he could've wiped him out with Kirin he was depicted as being the stronger shinobi 

4. Deidara potrayal in the war was embarrassing to the point he shouldn't be above Kages like Mei , Rasa who are weaker than other Kages but still treated with more respect than Deidara I feel the same way about Kakuzu but you can say less so at best they are all on the same level 

5. Wind Arc Naruto and Sasuke in Uchiha arc are at the same level 

Kirin=FRS

Hebi=Kurama they both had minimal control and once they lose control it is no longer their power and can be taken over both showed they were stronger than Deidara , both took on their respective mid atakuski and Itachi could wipe the floor with both of them if he wanted , now Hebi had better performance reisisting Gen but let's be real Sasuke had come prepared and had trained 2.5 yrs specifically to defeat Itachi


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

My list 

Kaguya

Hagoromo
Madara 
Hamura 
Momo 

Naruto (VOTE 2)
Sasuke (VOTE 2)
Juubito 
Indra
Ashura 

Hashirama
Madara 

Minato
Obito(Rinnegan)
Sasuke(PS/CS)
Naruto (BM/SM)

Nagato 
Kabuto 
Tobirama
Danzo
Hanzo 
Naruto(KCM/SM)
Sasuke (EMS)

Itachi
Jiraiya
Naruto(SM)
Sasuke(MS)

Hiruzen
Orochimaru
Bee
Troll
Mu 
Onoki 
Tsunade
Sasori
3rd Kazekage

Gaara 
Ei
AAA
Rasa
Mei
Kisame
Sasuke(Kirin/Hebi)
Naruto( FRS/3KN)
Kakashi(Pre War)
Kakuzu

Gai did nothing to get stronger and had 8 gates from CE and was never mentioned as a legit Kage contender or a Character on the high Kage tier like Sannin , Itachi , Minato this is where portrayal Nd story structure outweighs feats now at his peak taking on Juubidara is phenomenal but I take that like DMS Kakashi if that's the only way you can fight on that level consistently then you aren't meant to be on a high tier from a story telling perspective to me Gai is someone who should be on the Kage tier with Ei , Gaara , Rasa 

Kakashi is more tricky because he does have the Obito connection going for him he played more critical role has better hype , more intrical to the story and hasn't been as stationary and himself always improves before the war he was close to Kage but not quite after improving Kamui  I Would be willing to put him at the bottom of the tier with Tsunade , Orochimaru 

Konan can't be weaker than Deidara , Kisame , Kakuzu she held to much clout in atakuski but she can't be much stronger because she was one shot by Jiraiya her terrain is like Kissme chakra absorption situational to me she is to Kisame what Kakuzu is to Deidara 

White Fang close to his son 

Shisui eye is dangerous but w/o the senju cell is dehyped to only once every 10 yrs usage w/o it he didn't show much but he was a prolific MS user who held clout in Uchiha clan but the pipeline seemed to be with Fukagu and his sons so he probably is slightly below them at their best with MS

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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's asinine to think that the gap between Orochimaru & Jiraiya is larger than the gap between Hashirama & Jūbito or SPSM Naruto. Orochimaru wouldn't constantly brag about being better than Jiraiya if there was a large gap, and don't bring up that "villain boasting" excuse either; Orochimaru was Itachi's enemy as well, and the Sannin knew he was inferior.


Dude if you look at what was largely responsible for Juubito's defeat it was Kyuubi/Susano'o mecha, and Hashirama faced a more powerful version [It has 100% Kurama verus the Sasu/Naru only had 50%] of that mecha and defeated it. And as I said before only Edo-Hashirama stated Juubito was stronger than him and Edo-Hashiram was vastly less impressive than his living form; though even then Madara personally checked Edo-Hashirama because he feared Edo-Hashirama could defeat Juubito. So I'm not sure where your getting the idea from that there is a massive gap between VOTE-Hashirama and Juubito.

And sorry, but Orochimaru villainous boasts don't mean shit. Sasuke, the Orochimaru parallel, was saying the same shit to Naruto on the roof-top, and Naruto using only base out performed him and would have tore that ass up with KN0. Orochimaru not only has the same personality as Sasuke, but he is the king of overestimating himself, see how he acted against Hiruzen and twice against Itachi.



> Satestu was Suna's (and therefore Sandaime Kazekage's) greatest weapon. Sasori may have struggled with Sandaime Kazekage but he still won. Yet you're telling me that if you give Sasori the Kazekage's best shit, add extremely lethal poison to it, and then add a bunch of weapons & traps to the puppet's body that Sandaime didn't have, Sasori still wouldn't be a tier above him. Yet Jiraiya is a tier above the other Sannin..


No i'm saying, can you prove that Sasori could use Satetsu as well as Sandaime? Can you prove that Sasori can use his other puppet techniques, at the same time as using Satetsu on the level of Sandaime? 

There is a large gap between the Sannin, because Jiraiya can use the God-Mode that is the ultimate pinnacle of each of the Sannin's combat styles, while the other two can't. And has vastly better portrayal in the story. Jiraiya could take Pain w/ the right conditions; Tsunade even w/ even better conditions concede to rely on Naruto to take Pain; because Naruto was training to gain that very same God-Mode that she lacked. Jiraiya could take Itachi; the same Itachi who humiliated Orochimaru twice and Orochimaru admitted was much stronger then him. Jiraiya is also story-wise Naruto's Benchmark when achieving a power equivalent to the power Sasuke achieves when Itachi is the acting benchmark.

Now putting all of this aside what reason do we have to believe that Orochimaru is around Jiriaya's level? His own boast? That's pretty weak. 



> I think you just made that up. Madara wanted to fight Hashirama because he was obsessed with fighting Hashirama, not because he was scared of Hashirama beating Jūbito. Why the fuck would Madara care if Hashirama took down Jūbito? Madara & Obito weren't on the same team at that point. Moreover, Hashirama's Shinsūsenju is _nothing _compared to the Bijūdama we saw from the second form Jūbi, and that was nothing compared to the Bijūdama that Venasaur Jūbi could use. Jūbito could use four of those at the same time...


Madara stops Hashirama, because he wants to absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu, which he believes will enable him to defeat Juubito and take his place casting Mugen Tsukuyomi himself:
Bijūdama that Venasaur Jūbi could use

So essentially Madara believes Hashirama powers can defeat Juubito, and this is a weakened Edo-Hashiramas powers. He check Edo-Hashirama, because he didn't want Edo-Hashirama to stop Juubito, he wanted to use Edo-Hashirama's powers to stop Juubito himself.

Also as far as the Bijuudama thing goes, Hashirama clearly believed he could counter those, as he asked Madara to allow him to go do just that in ch 643, when Juubito was about to release those bombs:
Bijūdama that Venasaur Jūbi could use



> The only difference between Danzō-fight Sasuke and Ay-fight Sasuke is two stages of Susanoo.


Sasuke by the end of the Kages arc had evolved Susano'o to Stage 4 and added an Enton flame to it's arsenal:


That is a massive difference.



> Also, match-up & circumstances. Kagutsuchi Susanoo hard-counters Ay, and Ay was overly emotional at that time because of Bee's "death," which is probably why he swung right into Kagutsuchi with no regard for his own well-being (Darui & Cee were _surprised_ for a reason).


All Kagatsuchi + Susano'o did was offer Sasuke a good defense against Ei's physical blows. To assert that anyone who can mount a good defense against Ei's blows is a bad match up for him is ridiculous.

And if you think Ei being bloodlust to do whatever he felt was necessary to kill Sasuke is such a disadvantage in a battle where the objective is to kill Sasuke that it makes up for the massive increase in strength Sasuke got after fighting Ei; this conversation is over.



> Match-up & circumstances matter. Sasori lost to Chiyo, Obito got no-diffed by Minato, Kisame beat Killer Bee who you have two tiers higher, the Ambush Squad trolled Deidara, etc.


Obito didn't get no-diff'd by Minato; so i'm not going to even bother with that one.

Comparing Sasori vs Chiyo + Sakura, Deidara vs Ambush Squad, and KB vs Kisame, to Sasuke vs Ei, is the most ridiculous shit i've heard in a long time.

Chiyo had a massive knowledge/experiential advantage when facing Sasori. She had outside help from Sakura one of 2 known people who could brew an antidote to Sasori's poison; and had the prior prep to do so. Then Sasori ultimately allowed himself to die, rather than actually being defeated.

Kisame is the self proclaimed perfect foil to dealing with Jin/Bijuu; due to the massive type advantage of Samehada. KB also had to fight while protecting Sabo and Ponta, without being able to use his full power. 

Deidara was effected by general Edo underperformance, but also was defeated due to the Ambush Squad having knowledge and the ability to exploit a crippling weakness of his (Raiton). 

----

Beyond that, you are citing these characters worse performances. While Ei performance against Sasuke was his best performance. Every performance since then has been even less impressive. In his next fight he was completely trolled by Minato and outperformed by Base-B. Then in his fight against Naruto and B, he was once again outperformed by Base-B and trolled by Naruto. Then he fought against Madara, a battle in which he was only more effectual than the weakest of the Gokage Mei, while being out-performed by Tsunade and Onoki, and debatably Gaara, certainly Gaara if we factor in Gaara, prior performance in the war against Rasa and Gengetsu, and later performances in the War Climax.



> What a disingenuous point. Sandaime ate up Datclone's Rasenshuriken and outlasted KCM. Raikage would have won if Dodai hadn't pulled Naruto out of the way of Raikage's punch. Oh, and Kabuto was controlling Ay at that time, and he didn't know about the Raikage's weakness to the Ippon Nukite.


When you only quote half a sentence w/o the rest of it's context of course it's going to come of disingenuous. As I said circumstance wasn't on Sandaime's Side, I agree, but then I also acknowledge the fact that this was a FUCKING CLONE that trolled his ass. 

If a fucking clone can aim dodge Sandaime's best strike and counter attack him at the last second, blasting his own attack back into him. How much rape is it going to be when he faces a full tilt SM-Naruto? Do you really think the author's intent there was well a clone trolled his ass, but if circumstance was on his side, he could stand toe to toe with Full power SM-Naruto? I just don't think that is the take away like at all there.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> As I read thru it I finally thought we would agree on the tiers but as I look thru it there are some glaring problems
> 
> 1. Hashirama being on the same tier as Juubito , Naruto, Sasuke with Rikudo power ups
> 
> ...


To be perfectly honest I'm not really sure why people consider these characters so far apart.

First if we look at Juubito. Yes Edo-Hashirama stated Juubito was stronger than him, but then Edo-Hashirama's was much weaker than VOTE-Hashirama. Additionally even in that weakened form Kishimoto made a point of sidelining Edo-Hashirama with the Madara battle, most likely because Edo-Hashirama would have stolen the spot-light from Minato & Naruto; and later Sasuke & Naruto, against Juubito. We even have hints of that with Edo-Hashirama believing asking Madara to let him face Juubtio at different junctures and to allow him to stop Juubito's TBBs and such. Also we have Madara stating that he believed with Edo-Hashirama's Senjutsu power he could defeat Juubito and take his place. Then when Juubito is actually defeated, it's primarily due to the power of the Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha, which is a inferior mecha than the one Madara used at VOTE w/ 100% Kurama, and Hashirama defeated. So i'm not sure how we can have these things in the manga yet say Juubito was WAY stronger than VOTE-Hashirama.

Moving onto Naruto and Sauske. Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke, Indra and Ashura's powers. Hashirama and Madara also were Indra and Ashura incarnations and had achieved their primes at the VOTE. In-fact when Madara exceeded his level at the VOTE by taking some of Hashirama's powers, it was stated that he was exceeding his station as Indra transmigrant and then coming closer to Kaguya's powers instead. Also if we look at this form a powers perspective. 

Madara at VOTE, had P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama Fusion. Sasuke at VOTEII's greatest power was fusing his P-Susano'o with 50% Kurama + 8 Other Bijuu Chakra. So for Sasuke to be much stronger than VOTE-Madara, the claim would need to ether the other 8 Bijuu > 50% Kurama chakra, which we know isn't true as Itachi stated that the other 8 Bijuu balance with Kurama's 50% Chakra back when he was explaining the Bijuu sealing order to Kisame; and quite frankly feats wise 50% Kurama Avatar was taking on many of the Bijuu at once and winning. Or Sasuke's P-Susano'o > Madara's, which I don't think is really a defensible position ether, given Madara's P-Susano'o's demonstrated power. And at the end of the day Sasuke's greatest attack was Indra's arrow, so an Indra incarnation move. Same thing with Naruto he had 50% Kurama + some minor chakra from the other Bijuu, and then he absorbed the "World's Natural Energy", but the latter is probably a hyperbola and even if it's not we know the way Senjutsu works the quantity of natural energy had to be around equal to 50%-Kurama + A little extra from other Bijuu, as otherwise Naruto would have turned to stone; so there Naruto had chakra levels about equal to 100% Kuraam + Sage-Mode, which is basically equivalent to the level Hashirama was at, at VOTE, w/ his Base capabilities being enough to take on Kurama and P-Susano'o, while his SM capabilities were enough to take on the fusion of both, and win.

Granted those 2 had the potential to become even stronger, since Naruto only had half Kurama and Sasuke still had a-lot to learn with his Sharrinngan, but they didn't achieve that potential during VOTE II. As mention Sasuke was still a novice with Sharinngan and was just starting to learn how to use the 6 Paths techniques. Naruto didn't get 50% Kurama back until after the battle with Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes Edo-Hashirama stated [Mindless] Juubito was stronger than him, but then Edo-Hashirama was much weaker than VOTE-Hashirama


 


Turrin said:


> Additionally even in that weakened form Kishimoto made a point of sidelining Edo-Hashirama with the Madara battle, most likely because Edo-Hashirama would have stolen the spot-light from Minato & Naruto


Or he needed somebody to preoccupy Madara. 


Turrin said:


> We even have hints of that with Edo-Hashirama believing asking Madara to let him face Juubtio at different junctures and to allow him to stop Juubito's TBBs and such


You talking about this? Yeah, he wanted to change the sphere's trajectory. His clone had the same fucking idea on the next page. But then this happened. Then Hashirama was like:



Yeah.




Turrin said:


> Also we have Madara stating that he believed with Edo-Hashirama's Senjutsu power he could defeat Juubito and take his place.


What we have is Madara stating that he could beat Obito with Rinnegan + EMS + Mokuton + Sage Mode. Hashirama only has two of those powers. Oh and by the way, I thought villain boasting didn't mean shit?


Turrin said:


> Then when Juubito is actually defeated, it's primarily due to the power of the Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha


Actually, there were nine other ninja on kyūbi steroids all guiding massive senjutsu-kyūbi-powered Rasengans into one tiny spot in Obito's shield, creating a small opening for the Senjutsu Kyūsanoo to clash blades with Obito's soul sword...and what do you know, Obito ends up being filled with doubt during the clash. Funny thing is, he hadn't lost. The entire Shinobi Alliance was needed to pull the tailed beasts out of Obito. 


Turrin said:


> So i'm not sure how we can have these things in the manga yet say Juubito was WAY stronger than VOTE-Hashirama.


That was the most disingenuous post I've ever seen.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> To be perfectly honest I'm not really sure why people consider these characters so far apart.
> 
> First if we look at Juubito. Yes Edo-Hashirama stated Juubito was stronger than him, but then Edo-Hashirama's was much weaker than VOTE-Hashirama. Additionally even in that weakened form Kishimoto made a point of sidelining Edo-Hashirama with the Madara battle, most likely because Edo-Hashirama would have stolen the spot-light from Minato & Naruto; and later Sasuke & Naruto, against Juubito. We even have hints of that with Edo-Hashirama believing asking Madara to let him face Juubtio at different junctures and to allow him to stop Juubito's TBBs and such. Also we have Madara stating that he believed with Edo-Hashirama's Senjutsu power he could defeat Juubito and take his place. Then when Juubito is actually defeated, it's primarily due to the power of the Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha, which is a inferior mecha than the one Madara used at VOTE w/ 100% Kurama, and Hashirama defeated. So i'm not sure how we can have these things in the manga yet say Juubito was WAY stronger than VOTE-Hashirama.
> 
> ...



Who said they have to be far apart to be on a different tier , just like Orochimaru/Jiraiya in different tiers just  Hashi/Madara are in that weird place where they don't quite have the culmination of powers they don't have Rinnegan , Black orbs so they are a notch below 

Hashirama said his man is "even" stronger than me , even is important because it is used to hype Junior beyond his GOS status he like all shinobi always imply the reasoning for being inferior he wasn't talking about Edo , he knows Juubito has his and Madara combined power

Yes Madara/Hashirama are stronger than Sasuke/Naruto , Minato va Juubito but as we see Madara/ Hashirama would need to combine forces to defeat him plus they would need help from the alliance , so that in itself says VOTE is weaker than Juubito because they need to combine their power to defeat him and Madara meant stacking Hashirana power with his 

Sasuke has everything Madara had but has a Rinnegan on top of it could use teleportation hax on top of Susanoo and CT Madara at VOTE couldn't use Rinnegan techs he had to get his shit fucked up and sacrifice his life just to achieve what Rikudo gave Sasuke 

Naruto had Rikudo's very own Sage Mode which was above Hashirama as we see by having the black orbs , being able to fly and he also had access to every tailed beast power something Hashirama didn't have in life 

Yeah Hashirama/Madara were trans but he saw how they failed and unlike Naruto/Sasuke they weren't given his power dirrectly by the same himself , Hashirama killed Madara , and Madara sacrificed his life to get Rikudo's power


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Or Sasuke's P-Susano'o > Madara's, which I don't think is really a defensible position ether, given Madara's P-Susano'o's demonstrated power


You shitting me?


Turrin said:


> Naruto had chakra levels about equal to 100% Kuraam + Sage-Mode, which is basically equivalent to the level Hashirama was at, at VOTE, w/ his Base capabilities being enough to take on Kurama and P-Susano'o, while his SM capabilities were enough to take on the fusion of both, and win.


Except Naruto had Six Paths Sage Mode, which uses Hagoromo's senjutsu and is the same power as that of a jūbi jin. SPSM Naruto outperformed Hashirama without any Kyūbi help at all the moment he severed the God Tree.

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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

This is how I see Naruto/Sasuke progression 

FRS/Hebi got them in Kakashi tier 

Sage Mode/MS surpassed him 

Sage Mode/MS got them in Itachi/Jiraiya tier 

KCM/EMS surpassed them 

KCM/EMS got them in Nagato/Kabuto tier 

BM/PS surpassed them 

BM/PS got them into Minato tier

PS/CS, SM/BM surpassed him 

BM/SM, PS/CS got them into Hashirama/Madara tier 

Rikudo Powers surpassed them 

Rikudo Powers got them into Ashura/Indra tier 

Adulthood surpassed them maybe where at best they have reached Rikudo level is uncertain 

Surpassing Kaguya might be left for Boruto or Sarada


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

@Rocky

Tobirama said they were close to their original power, but that gap was never quantified, and it was never quantified to be the same for all the Hokages. Hashirama missing a bit of his power could be a big thing, because well Hashirama's power is massive. All we know is Edo-Hashirama never demonstrated power anywhere close to what he showed at VOTE. Even still Madara considered his Senjutsu powers great enough to defeat Juubito.



> Or he needed somebody to preoccupy Madara.


That's not how it's presented in the manga. Hashirama goes to help the alliance and Kishimoto has Madara stop him, not the other way around. Then later has Madara stated Hashirama's Senjutsu can defeat Juubito.



> You talking about this? Yeah, he wanted to change the sphere's trajectory. His clone had the same fucking idea on the next page. But then this happened. Then Hashirama was like:


We don't know what the real Hashirama was going to do because he was checked by Madara. The clone suggested changing the trajectory because he was only a clone.



> What we have is Madara stating that he could beat Obito with Rinnegan + EMS + Mokuton + Sage Mode. Hashirama only has two of those powers.


Madara couldn't use the full power of Mokuton or Rinnegan; that's why his ultimate power was still portrayed as P-Susano'o. So Madara with P-Susano'o and Hashirama's Senjutsu, is probably about equivalent to SM-Hashirama with Shin Suusenju. 



> Oh and by the way, I thought villain boasting didn't mean shit?


That wasn't Madara boasting about his superiority or his opponents inferiority. It's Madara talking about a tactic he wishes to employee to beat an otherwise more powerful enemy, I.E. absorb Hashirama's Senjutsu to take on Juubito.



> Actually, there were nine other ninja on kyūbi steroids all guiding massive senjutsu-kyūbi-powered Rasengans into one tiny spot in Obito's shield, creating a small opening for the Senjutsu Kyūsanoo to clash blades with Obito's soul sword...and what do you know, Obito ends up being filled with doubt during the clash. Funny thing is, he hadn't lost. The entire Shinobi Alliance was needed to pull the tailed beasts out of Obito


So you think those rookies are and some doubt for Obito is > 50% Kurama? Because Hashirama beat that Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha w/ 100% Kurama.



Eliyua23 said:


> Who said they have to be far apart to be on a different tier


Me, when I designed the tier list to have broader tiers



> ,  they don't quite have the culmination of powers


Juubito also doesn't have the culmination of those powers. That would be Kaguya.



> Hashirama said his man is "even" stronger than me , even is important because it is used to hype Junior beyond his GOS status he like all shinobi always imply the reasoning for being inferior he wasn't talking about Edo , he knows Juubito has his and Madara combined power


Hashirama used the present tense, so he was talking about his present strength. And even if he wasn't he didn't say Juubito is Much stronger then him, he said he was stronger, I don't doubt that Juubito could be > VOTE-Hashirama, I doubt that he is far > VOTE-Hashirama.



> Yes Madara/Hashirama are stronger than Sasuke/Naruto , Minato va Juubito but as we see Madara/ Hashirama would need to combine forces to defeat him plus they would need help from the alliance , so that in itself says VOTE is weaker than Juubito because they need to combine their power to defeat him and Madara meant stacking Hashirana power with his


Where do we see that Hashirama and Madara would need to combine forces. Juubito is defeated by a Kyuubi-Susano'o mecha that is inferior to the one Madara used against Hashirama in VOTE. Yes Naruto and Sasuke had some outside help as well, but does that outside help account for more than the extra 50% of Kurama Madara had at VOTE, doubtful.



> Sasuke has everything Madara had but has a Rinnegan on top of it could use teleportation hax on top of Susanoo and CT Madara at VOTE couldn't use Rinnegan techs he had to get his shit fucked up and sacrifice his life just to achieve what Rikudo gave Sasuke


He has Rinnegan which he could not control well. I mean let me ask you just how much of a difference did those Rinnegan powers make at VOTE. How much impact did teleporting really have on that battle?

And no Madara sacrificed his life to achieve Hashirama's powers and rinnegan. Sasuke can't use Mokuton and Sasuke can't use Rinnegan half as well as Madara can; and only has 1 Rinnegan.



> Naruto had Rikudo's very own Sage Mode which was above Hashirama as we see by having the black orbs , being able to fly and he also had access to every tailed beast power something Hashirama didn't have in life


Naruto's SM was better, but then his Raw-Power to start with was inferior. Hashirama in Base took on 100% Kurama + P-Susano'o-Madara at the same time. Naruto only had 50% Kurama and his own Powers. So Naruto needed a better SM to balance things out.



> Yeah Hashirama/Madara were trans but he saw how they failed and unlike Naruto/Sasuke they weren't given his power dirrectly by the same himself , Hashirama killed Madara , and Madara sacrificed his life to get Rikudo's power


Yes and Hagoromo giving them that power is what allowed them to quickly reach Hashirama and Madara's level at VOTE, perhaps excel it by a bit, but not far excel it. At least not at the time of VOTE, where both of them were Sasuke was still a novice with Rinnegan and Naruto was still lacking half of Kurama.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> BM/SM, PS/CS got them into Hashirama/Madara tier


Let's break this down:

Hashirama w/o SM was taking on Madara's P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama.

So BM-Naruto, who only has 50% Kurama, w/o SM, would need to be able to take on Madara's P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama.

That doesn't make any sense. 100%-Kurama alone should be > BM-Naruto.

Like wise let's break down Sasuke.

Assuming Sasuke's P-Susano'o is equal to Madara's which is being extremely generous, than Juugo's Curse-Seal would need to be equal to 100% Kurama, for Sasuke's P-Susano'o + CS Fusion to be equal to Madara P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama Fusion.

Which also makes no sense.

These aren't small gaps ether, these are massive ones.

---------

On the flip side of this, when Naruto and Sasuke got Hagoromo Power ups their VOTE selves match VOTE Madara and Hashirama much better.

Sasuke's 8 Bijuu + 50% Kurama is probably about equivalent to 100% Kurama, considering the other 8 Bijuu were said to balance with 50% Kurama by Itachi.

Sasuke's P-Susano'o fused with 8 Bijuu + 50% Kurama is therefore probably around the level of Madara P-Susano'o + 100% Kyuubi Fusion

Sasuke has some little bit of extra Rinnegan juice beyond it, but his lack of experience with it causes it to create maybe a small gap, not a big one, and as such it has little impact on his battle with Naruto in comparison to the above.

Like wise Naruto gets 50%-Kurama + little more Bijuu Juice and SO6P-SM. S06P-SM allows him to balance "world's natural energy" w/ 50% Kurama, meaning he has 100% Kurama chakra levels at that point + he combines it with Senjutsu enhancements, which should put him close to Hashirama, also the fact that his Avatar is equal to Sasuke asserts that as well. 

Like wise the fact that his Avatar is basically the same as Ashura's and Sasuke's ultimate attack is Indra's attack also asserts this.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Hashirama missing a bit of his power could be a big thing, because well Hashirama's power is massive.


How does that make sense to you?


Turrin said:


> We don't know what the real Hashirama was going to do because he was checked by Madara. The clone suggested changing the trajectory because he was only a clone.



Prove it. The real Hashirama implied he could help the alliance _before Obito put up the barrier._ He didn't say shit after the barrier had gone up. If the original could have done something, the clone probably would have said something like "if only I had all of my chakra I could stop this."


Turrin said:


> Madara couldn't use the full power of Mokuton or Rinnegan; that's why his ultimate power was still portrayed as P-Susano'o. So Madara with P-Susano'o and Hashirama's Senjutsu, is probably about equivalent to SM-Hashirama with Shin Suusenju.


Madara showed everything base Hashirama did except for Mokujin (that doesn't mean that he couldn't use it), and the only things he was implied to be incapable of with the Rinnegan were Limbo & summoning the Gedo statue. Edo Madara thought that _he_ could defeat Obito if he had Sage Mode. Madara would have been using all of Sage Hashirama's shit with his own Senjutsu Susanoo & Senjutsu Rinnegan techniques. That outclasses just Sage Hashirama.


Turrin said:


> So you think those rookies are and some doubt for Obito is > 50% Kurama?


50% Sage Mode Kurama + Susanoo armor + rookies all roided up with Naruto's Kyūbi~Sage powers + the amount of power Obito's Willpower Sword lost from having no willpower >>> 100% Kurama + Susanoo armor.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> @Rocky
> 
> Tobirama said they were close to their original power, but that gap was never quantified, and it was never quantified to be the same for all the Hokages. Hashirama missing a bit of his power could be a big thing, because well Hashirama's power is massive. All we know is Edo-Hashirama never demonstrated power anywhere close to what he showed at VOTE. Even still Madara considered his Senjutsu powers great enough to defeat Juubito.
> 
> ...



So the disparity between Juubito and Hashirama isn't as big as the one between Jiraiya/Orochimaru ?


Juubito is a culmination of being a fake Rikudo he had Rinnegan , Power of the body , Tailed beast , Kaguya is a more advanced version 

He said even though why say "even" if it wasn't meant to hype Junior beyond his best self he could have easily said stronger than me in my state but he just flat out says he's stronger than me GOS 

How is it inferior when Naruto a full powered Jin in control of his Bijuu>Kurama and it was stacked with Sage Mode Sasuke's PS was stacked with Sage powers as well so that is superior to Kurama/PS and you're also adding in help from Minato , Tobirama , Sakura ect high tier shinobi 

Remember Sasuke used his Rinnegan techs after a prolonged battle against Kaguya but it did play a part in using his CT to channel all of the 9 tails chakra into his Susanoo that was the first thing he did with the Rinnegan then he used t to break the ultimate genjutsu also something Madara couldn't achieve 

No , the point to gaining access to Hashirama's powers was to achieve the Rinnegan which is why he sat in that dungeon waiting to actiavate Rinnegan after VOTE 

How was his raw power weaker by that time he also had the power of every tailed beast in exsistence , he had the black orbs , could fly , could revive people from near death , give people their eyes back had speed that would fuck up Hashirama's world , Hashirama in SM took on PS/Kurama Naruto after a pro-longed battle with Kaguya took on Sasuke + the power of the 8 tailed beast 

He gave them that power to defeat Kaguya something he and his brother who were at least a tier stronger than Hashirama/Madara remember both fought against Kaguya for the fight of their lives Naruto by Kurama admission was drained and Sasuke wore out his Rinnegan with teleportation then using CT on nine tailed beast they sealed Kaguya and ended infinite genjutsu something beyond VOTE 2 duo


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

you have to think once Naruto/Sasuke gained their powers they were kicking the shit out of Madara and the only thing that was saving him was limbo and having the power of Juubi , could you imagine what would happen if Naruto with his infinite speed or if Sasuke used his teleportation against VOTE Madara he would be dead for I'm not a speed whore but their aresenal was beyond , then once Naruto gets Rikduo power he looks at Naruto and says you have surpassed every Kage that has come before you , shit Tobirama saw he could surpass him before he knew anything about Rikudo power


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## Sapherosth (Oct 29, 2016)

Pretty sure that Itachi was still Sasuke's benchmark up until post Kabuto fight. There's a reason why one performed considerably better than the other.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure that Itachi was still Sasuke's benchmark up until post Kabuto fight. There's a reason why one performed considerably better than the other.



Yeah he outperformed a Sasuke who had just gotten EMS that had no time to strengthen it combat he virtually only showed the ability to spam his MS techs which alone would put him above a Sasuke that would eventually go blind


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## Sapherosth (Oct 29, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah he outperformed a Sasuke who had just gotten EMS that had no time to strengthen it combat he virtually only showed the ability to spam his MS techs which alone would put him above a Sasuke that would eventually go blind




That's basically the same as KCM Naruto being compared with alive Minato.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That's basically the same as KCM Naruto being compared with alive Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)




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## Sapherosth (Oct 29, 2016)

> No the difference is he had one skill speed being compared to Minato , where as Sasuke had a better version of Itachi's greatest skill his MS , now at first it doesn't seem like much of an advantage because Itachi has the luxury of Edo body while Sasuke is just a novice with EMS not really showing anything behind just spamming his MS level Susanoo but as time went on and you add in better techniques with EMS his benchmark becomes Madara even Nagano before him , while Naruto even worth BM is still replicating Minato feats like Beast Bomb Deflection , Chakra Transfer




Naruto was compared with Minato many times throughout the manga. Most of which stating that Naruto has surpassed Minato in some ways. Wind Arc, SM Arc and then Bijuu training arc.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Naruto was compared with Minato many times throughout the manga. Most of which stating that Naruto has surpassed Minato in some ways. Wind Arc, SM Arc and then Bijuu training arc.



Right he surpassed Minato at certain techs but BM at the end of Juubito when he started to use chakra transfer which was THAT jutsu and also stacking SM with BM did he surpass Minato and remember Minato's skill set is totally different than Naruto's he's using FTG and Uzumaki seals which we can't directly compare him to , Sasuke uses the same ocular jutsu he just acquired a more advanced version of what Itachi already had same techs but can use them more and eventually gained superior techs over time , once he advanced his superior ocular powers that was the same as Itachi his benchmark changed


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## Sapherosth (Oct 29, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Right he surpassed Minato at certain techs but BM at the end of Juubito when he started to use chakra transfer which was THAT jutsu and also stacking SM with BM did he surpass Minato and remember Minato's skill set is totally different than Naruto's he's using FTG and Uzumaki seals which we can't directly compare him to , Sasuke uses the same ocular jutsu he just acquired a more advanced version of what Itachi already had same techs but can use them more and eventually gained superior techs over time , once he advanced his superior ocular powers that was the same as Itachi his benchmark changed




Just like Sasuke surpassing Itachi at certain techs (Ama), while never surpassing in terms of genjutsu/Susano until the later stages of the war. 

Naruto reached Minato's speed level at KCM and was emphasised *three times *that he was just like the yellow flash. Power wise Naruto also shits on Minato. The only difference between them was skill, which Sasuke was also lacking behind Itachi. 

Naruto definitely surpassed Minato when he acquired KCM, and the next benchmarks were Madara/Hashirama respectively.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> How does that make sense to you?


How doesn't it make sense to you?

If Hashirama's power is 1,000, in comparison to most Shinobi whose power is 10. And Hashirama losses only 10% of his normal strength (or 100 points), that's only a bit of Hashirama's power, but relative to everyone else that's huge.



> Prove it. The real Hashirama implied he could help the alliance _before Obito put up the barrier._ He didn't say shit after the barrier had gone up. If the original could have done something, the clone probably would have said something like "if only I had all of my chakra I could stop this."


So your argument is because Kishimoto didn't waste panel time on a Hashirama, once again lamenting his inability to get involved, he couldn't stop the TBB; ridiculous. And no it's your point that he couldn't stop them and that somehow makes him much weaker than Juubito, so the burden of proof is on you. You don't get to make any ridiculous assertion your heart desires with absolutely nothing backing it up and then expect me to have to go out of my way to counter it.



> Madara showed everything base Hashirama did except for Mokujin (that doesn't mean that he couldn't use it), and the only things he was implied to be incapable of with the Rinnegan were Limbo & summoning the Gedo statue. Edo Madara thought that _he_ could defeat Obito if he had Sage Mode. Madara would have been using all of Sage Hashirama's shit with his own Senjutsu Susanoo & Senjutsu Rinnegan techniques. That outclasses just Sage Hashirama.


The Gokage were able to counter Madara's Mokuton + Rinnegan Skills + Some of his EMS Skills. However the Gokage were completely outclassed once P-Susano'o came out, with P-Susano'o being clearly portrayed as on another level to those skills entirely. Hashirama w/ Just his Mokuton took on that same P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama. So I have no clue how you can conclude Madara's Mokuton skills are on par with Hashirama's. Like none whatsoever.



> 50% Sage Mode Kurama + Susanoo armor + rookies all roided up with Naruto's Kyūbi~Sage powers + the amount of power Obito's Willpower Sword lost from having no willpower >>> 100% Kurama + Susanoo armor.


Madara's P-Susano'o was equivalent to Mokujin, which was in-turn equivalent to 100% Kurama. 
EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o on the other hand seems like it was suppose to be equivalent to Naruto's BM, I.E. 50% Kurama. So it's likely Madara's Susano'o was twice as powerful? Naruto's BM is 50% Kurama, while Madara commanded 100% Kurama which is twice as powerful as well.

So Madara's P-Susano'o + 100% Kyuubi is likely WAY more powerful then Sasuke's P-Susano'o w/ Naruto's BM.

Granted we also have the addition of Toad SM and the rookies helping out, but there is no way i'm believing those things are making up that staggering difference; especially when the rookies didn't add anything other than their own chakra, as their power came from Naruto sharing some of the mechs with them.  Obito's will wavering a tiny bit, isn't enough ether.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Just like Sasuke surpassing Itachi at certain techs (Ama), while never surpassing in terms of genjutsu/Susano until the later stages of the war.
> 
> Naruto reached Minato's speed level at KCM and was emphasised *three times *that he was just like the yellow flash. Power wise Naruto also shits on Minato. The only difference between them was skill, which Sasuke was also lacking behind Itachi.
> 
> Naruto definitely surpassed Minato when he acquired KCM, and the next benchmarks were Madara/Hashirama respectively.



What he had The same size Susanoo at the end of the Kages ARC AND susanoo in the fight vs Kabuto their Susanoo were exactly the same size they utilized at the same techniques and the same eye power , Minato used a finitely different skill set so initially yes he surpassed Minato in speed but Minato's abilities were more complex , he could still slice up guys he tagged yrs prior , he still had death reaper seal , could use chakra transfer whose was compared well into the war and at that time Minato was still compared to Naruto , Sasuke still with his EMS held a different benchmark in Madara Itachi was never brought up in comparison with Sasuke as deep into the war as Naruto beings compared to Minato 

As soon as Sasuke gets EMS he could do what Itachi could do but longer and better if they both spam PS in a human body Sasuke trumps him , Naruto just using his KCM didn't prove he could trump Minato and remember Naruto had much longer to train his KCM than Sasuke had with EMD duke had just taken he bandages off


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> How doesn't it make sense to you?
> 
> If Hashirama's power is 1,000, in comparison to most Shinobi whose power is 10. And Hashirama losses only 10% of his normal strength (or 100 points), that's only a bit of Hashirama's power, but relative to everyone else that's huge.
> 
> ...



You're comparing what Naruto and Sasuke did against Juubito but what about what they did with Kaguya and Jubbidara how can they counter space dimension , how could they close in on her speed , how can they stop the infinite genjutsu and counter limbo


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> So the disparity between Juubito and Hashirama isn't as big as the one between Jiraiya/Orochimaru ?


I think the disparity is relative. But when talking God-Tiers the powers-levels are enormous so the gaps appear bigger. For example:

If Hashirama's PL is 10,000 and Juubito's is 11,000, this is a gap of 1,000 points.
Now let's say Jiraiya's PL is 200, and Orochimaru's is 100.

According to this Jiriaya is twice as strong as Orochimaru, while Juubito is nowhere near twice as strong as Hashirama, but 10 Orochimaru's could fit in the gap between Juubito and Hashirama. My point being that because power-levels are so huge the gaps appear larger, but relatively speaking the difference in strength is not as large between the two.



> Juubito is a culmination of being a fake Rikudo he had Rinnegan , Power of the body , Tailed beast , Kaguya is a more advanced version


Culmination - the highest or climactic point of something,

Was Juubito at the highest point, not he wasn't, therefore he was not culmination. Kaguya was



> He said even though why say "even" if it wasn't meant to hype Junior beyond his best self he could have easily said stronger than me in my state but he just flat out says he's stronger than me GOS


Yes EDO-Hashirama says Juubito is stronger then him, not VOTE-Hashirama. You are making the assumption that he meant his living self, that isn't present in the text.



> How is it inferior when Naruto a full powered Jin in control of his Bijuu>Kurama and it was stacked with Sage Mode Sasuke's PS was stacked with Sage powers as well so that is superior to Kurama/PS and you're also adding in help from Minato , Tobirama , Sakura ect high tier shinobi


Okay Minato, Tobirama, and Sakura did not help out Sasuke and Naruto when the overpowered Juubito.

And how is it inferior. Naruto had 50% Kurama. Sasuke's P-Susano'o was suppose to be equivalent to 50% Kurama as well. Madara had 100% Kurama and his P-Susano'o was equivalent to 100% Kurama. That means Madara's Mecha was double the strength of Sasuke and Naruto's Mecha.

If you can prove to me why Toad-SM would be > then a twice as powerful Kurama and P-Susano'o, then ill concede. I think i'm being generous even comparing the two.



> Remember Sasuke used his Rinnegan techs after a prolonged battle against Kaguya but it did play a part in using his CT to channel all of the 9 tails chakra into his Susanoo that was the first thing he did with the Rinnegan then he used t to break the ultimate genjutsu also something Madara couldn't achieve


K, and the end result of that was gaining the power of the 8-Bijuu + 50% Kurama, which is roughly equivalent to the 100% Kurama Madara had under his control. Then they both fused that power with their P-Susano'o. So how do we come out of that equation saying Sasuke's is WAY stronger.



> No , the point to gaining access to Hashirama's powers was to achieve the Rinnegan which is why he sat in that dungeon waiting to actiavate Rinnegan after VOTE


No it was both, as Hashirama's power is what enabled him to manifest Rinnegan and for his body to handle Rinnegan, in the first place.



> How was his raw power weaker by that time he also had the power of every tailed beast in exsistence ,


Naruto had a tiny fraction of the chakra of each Tailed Beast and then 50% Kurama. Hashirama's Raw-Power took on P-Susano'o and 100% Kyuubi. So how is Naruto's Raw Power not inferior LOL.



> he had the black orbs , could fly , could revive people from near death , give people their eyes back had speed that would fuck up Hashirama's world , Hashirama in SM took on PS/Kurama Naruto after a pro-longed battle with Kaguya took on Sasuke + the power of the 8 tailed beast


All of this is due to SO6P SM, which is what I said allowed Naruto make up the gap between himself and Hashirama, with the end result being Naruto being equal or slightly greater in Raw Power than Hahsirama.

And I'm not going to keep repeating myself as to how that's the case, as i've already explained that you multiple times and you have refused to address that point blank math at play here.

Sasuke, had 50% Kurama + 8 Bijuu which equal out to another 50% Kurama = 100% Kurama. He combined that with his P-Susano'o to form his ultimate Mecha. Madara did the same thing with 100% Kurama and his P-Susano'o. Naruto's Ultimate BSM Aura was equal to Sasuke's, just like Hashirama's SM Shin Suu Senju was equal to Madara's. Maybe Sasuke's and Naruto's were slightly stronger due in the end, but it mathematically the difference could not be that great.



> He gave them that power to defeat Kaguya something he and his brother who were at least a tier stronger than Hashirama/Madara remember both fought against Kaguya for the fight of their lives Naruto by Kurama admission was drained and Sasuke wore out his Rinnegan with teleportation then using CT on nine tailed beast they sealed Kaguya and ended infinite genjutsu something beyond VOTE 2 duo


What is this even based on? We have no basis to claim Hagoromo and Hamura were a tier stronger than Hashirama and Madara, at the time they faced Kaguya; Hagoromo only got the Juubi and all that extra shit after that battle. And Hagoromo gave those the power that Indra and Ashura, we know this as both Naruto and Sasuke are using Indra and Ashura Techniques as their ultimate triumphs against each other at VOTE. This is the same power that Hashirama and Madara had in their Primes as Indra and Ashura transmigrants, and as I showed above it should be equivalent power up wise as well.



> you have to think once Naruto/Sasuke gained their powers they were kicking the shit out of Madara and the only thing that was saving him was limbo and having the power of Juubi , could you imagine what would happen if Naruto with his infinite speed or if Sasuke used his teleportation against VOTE Madara he would be dead for I'm not a speed whore but their aresenal was beyond , then once Naruto gets Rikduo power he looks at Naruto and says you have surpassed every Kage that has come before you , shit Tobirama saw he could surpass him before he knew anything about Rikudo power


Of course Madara needed powers beyond his VOTE form to compete with both of them at the same time, considering he was facing them 1v2.



Eliyua23 said:


> You're comparing what Naruto and Sasuke did against Juubito but what about what they did with Kaguya and Jubbidara how can they counter space dimension , how could they close in on her speed , how can they stop the infinite genjutsu and counter limbo


They did none of that alone. Not only did they have each others help, but they had the help of Obito, Sakura, and Kakashi, who were so plot empowered it was stupid; and Hagoromo giving each of them a half of the coffin seal. So saying Hashirama or Madara couldn't do that individual is pointless, as nether could Naruto and Sasuke, fuck they couldn't even the two of them alone wasn't enough they needed even further assistance.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2016)

Hey @Turrin, you know what's funny? The Jūbi was revived with seven bijū + a fraction of the Hachibi & a fraction of the Kyūbi. So according to your "math", the Jūbi was around 50% Kurama in strength. 50% Kurama = other eight bijū. Jūbi = seven bijū + small parts of eight & nine. So unless small parts of eight & nine > entire Hachibi, 50% Kurama > Jūbi.

Yet Kurama was a bug to it in its first form...

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 29, 2016)

Ashura/Indra were never benchmarks for the protagonists at all, it was always Hashirama and Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hey @Turrin, you know what's funny? The Jūbi was revived with seven bijū + a fraction of the Hachibi & a fraction of the Kyūbi. So according to your "math", the Jūbi was around 50% Kurama in strength. 50% Kurama = other eight bijū. Jūbi = seven bijū + small parts of eight & nine. So unless small parts of eight & nine > entire Hachibi, 50% Kurama > Jūbi.
> 
> Yet Kurama was a bug to it in its first form...



Pretty sure Juubi isn't just the sum of the Bijuu's strength. Its Juubidama * that's charged very quickly * literally trashes the collective strength of the Bijuudama BM Naruto and the Hachibi launched at the Mazo.


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## ARGUS (Oct 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Let's break this down:
> 
> Hashirama w/o SM was taking on Madara's P-Susano'o + 100% Kurama.
> 
> ...


You're overlooking the facts far too much 

If you wna compare naruto/Sasukes full power with vote Madara/hashiramas 

Then look at their final clashes 

As it shows from their respective explosions 

Indras Arrow plus World NE RS >>>>> Chojo kobetsu plus 12 PS-TBB 

The former was felt from the war battlefield which is countries away. The latter didn't reach anywhere near that level 

You may have a point with naruto and Sasuke not using BPS/Ashura avatar
But once they do, Hashirama/Madara get mopped off the face of the earth


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Pretty sure Juubi isn't just the sum of the Bijuu's strength.


Correct. So this:


Turrin said:


> K, and the end result of that was [Sasuke] gaining the power of the 8-Bijuu + 50% Kurama, which is roughly equivalent to the 100% Kurama Madara had under his control.


...Is wrong. Eight bijū + 50% Kurama = stronger Jūbi than the one we saw in the manga, not 100% Kurama.

The Jūbi in Chapter 610 had the empty Gedō Mazō shell as the vessel, which received bijūs 1-7 + a small fraction of 8 + a small fraction of 9.

Sasuke in Chapter 696 had his Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo as the vessel, which received bijūs 1-8 + half of 9.

Kurama with Susanoo armor <<< 610 Jūbi <<< 696 Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hey @Turrin, you know what's funny? The Jūbi was revived with seven bijū + a fraction of the Hachibi & a fraction of the Kyūbi. So according to your "math", the Jūbi was around 50% Kurama in strength. 50% Kurama = other eight bijū. Jūbi = seven bijū + small parts of eight & nine. So unless small parts of eight & nine > entire Hachibi, 50% Kurama > Jūbi.
> 
> Yet Kurama was a bug to it in its first form...


Juubi has it's own power, Kaguya's power, it's just that the Tailed Beast Chakra was simply used to revive Juubi. Simply put it's not the sum total of chakra in this case, but the revival of a stronger entity. That's the difference. In Sasuke's case he did not revive a stronger entity, he took the chakra from the Bijuu and combined it with his Susano'o. This is the same thing Madara did with using Kurama's chakra/power to empower his Susano'o. So in that case it is the sum-total of chakra, hence the math.

If Sasuke used the Bijuu chakra to awaken an ancient entity with it's own power, than I would not apply the same math ether, but that's not what he did. Rather what he did is directly meant to mirror what Madara did.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> You're overlooking the facts far too much
> 
> If you wna compare naruto/Sasukes full power with vote Madara/hashiramas
> 
> ...


Literally just one of Madara's Mecha TBB, crossed the entire ocean, landing on an opposing country, and that's after it blew through 5 Roshomon:
bug

And yes the massive clash of Shin Suusenju and Madara's Mecha is at least comparable to the clash of Indra's Arrow and Naruto's TBBs:
bug

Look at that shit dwarfing the massive mountains.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 29, 2016)

@Turrin

 Sasuke did the reverse of what Hagoromo did by combining the Bijuu into Juubi as opposed to separating the Juubi into the Bijuu like Hagoromo did.


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Turrin
> 
> Sasuke did the reverse of what Hagoromo did by combining the Bijuu into Juubi as opposed to separating the Juubi into the Bijuu like Hagoromo did.


I fail to see what your point is.

Sasuke took the Chakra of 8 Bijuu and 50% Kurama and combined it with his Susano'o. K cool, that's still taking the chakra of the 8 Bijuu and 50% Kurama, no more no less.

This is still different than using the chakra of the Bijuu to revive an ancient entity that possess far greater strength than the 9 Bijuu combined. Let's remember that Juubi's power is not just the power of the 9 Bijuu, but rather the power of the God-Tree and Kaguya, which is far greater than that.

Edit: I think the problem your running into is your assuming Juubi's power is equivalent to the 9 Bijuu, but remember Juubi's power was not just split among the 9 Bijuu, first it was split between Hagoromo and Hamura, then it was further split to amongst many other humans and their sons, before finally being split into the 9 Bijuu and Gedo-Mazo.

Sasuke doing the reverse of what the Sage did, but with only 8 Bijuu and 1/2 of Kurama is nowhere near the Juubi's power

Like I said it should be roughly equivalent to what Madara did, where Madara also took a large chunk of the Juubi's power (100% Kurama) and combined it with his Susano'o.


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## ARGUS (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Literally just one of Madara's Mecha TBB, crossed the entire ocean, landing on an opposing country, and that's after it blew through 5 Roshomon:
> bug



It was still a mountain level explosion 
It drilling through the Rashomon means jack shit 



> And yes the massive clash of Shin Suusenju and Madara's Mecha is at least comparable to the clash of Indra's Arrow and Naruto's TBBs:
> bug
> 
> Look at that shit dwarfing the massive mountains.


None of this proves anything 
Infant it's flat out wrong 

One dwarved mountains and formed a valley 
The other one was felt near the cloud country when it occurred at vote 
Hell we even see the explosion in respect to the entire valley, which couldn't cover all of it


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## Rocky (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Juubi has it's own power, Kaguya's power, it's just that the Tailed Beast Chakra was simply used to revive Juubi.


No, the tailed beasts are the result of Hagoromo splitting up the Jūbi into nine parts, ten if you include the empty shell. Sasuke just reversed that process during his fight with Naruto.



But instead of the Gedo Mazo shell, Sasuke used his Susanoo.



So Sasuke's Susanoo was basically the Jūbi revived in a better body (Perfect Susanoo > empty Gedo statue).


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> It was still a mountain level explosion
> It drilling through the Rashomon means jack shit


Firstly, It's bigger than the mountains right next to it. Secondly it's still that size after being slowed down by 5 Roshomon and crossing the dam ocean.



> None of this proves anything
> Infant it's flat out wrong
> 
> One dwarved mountains and formed a valley
> The other one was felt near the cloud country when it occurred at vote


Prove that Hashirama and Madara's clash wasn't felt that far away 



> Hell we even see the explosion in respect to the entire valley, which couldn't cover all of it


Huh?


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, the tailed beasts are the result of Hagoromo splitting up the Jūbi into nine parts, ten if you include the empty shell. Sasuke just reversed that process during his fight with Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No the Juubi isn't

The Juubi is Kaguya's Chakra combined with the God-Tree. This power was first split between Kaguya's two children; Hagoromo and Hamura. Then it was split between their children and the rest of humanity that Hagoromo shared nishuu w/. The remainder was then split into the 9 Bijuu and Gedo Mazo. 

So Juubi = 9 Bijuu + GM + Chakra Split Between Hamura/Hagoromo, Their Children, and Many Other People

Conversely Sasuke's Susano'o = 8-Bijuu + 50% Kurama + Sasuke's Susano'o Chakra

It's not even close.


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## Rocky (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So Juubi = 9 Bijuu + GM + Chakra Split Between Hamura/Hagoromo, Their Children, and Many Other People
> 
> Conversely Sasuke's Susano'o = 8-Bijuu + 50% Kurama + Sasuke's Susano'o Chakra
> 
> It's not even close.




I'm not talking about the original Jūbi. I'm talking about the one that was revived in Chapter 610. That one only had 7 bijū, a small fraction of 8 & 9, and the Gedo statue, which is < what Sasuke had. The entire bad guy plot was the Jūbi Jins & Kaguya trying to take the chakra back from everybody, so the Jūbi in 610 most definitely did not start with it.

I hope to god you realize that.


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I'm not talking about the original Jūbi. I'm talking about the one that was revived in Chapter 610. That one only had 7 bijū, a small fraction of 8 & 9, and the Gedo statue, which is < what Sasuke had. The entire bad guy plot was the Jūbi Jins & Kaguya trying to take the chakra back from everybody, so the Jūbi in 610 most definitely did not start with it.
> 
> I hope to god you realize that.


The whole point of the Juubi was that it was slowly reviving towards it's original power even without needing all of it's original chakra to be sealed within it. That's why even without all 9 Bijuu, Obito was able to revive Juubi in a state were Juubi was already more powerful than the components that made it up. Then as the battle went on Juubi continued to grow in strength and evolve. Which once again is the difference between the Juubi and Sasuke's Susano'o.

Sasuke's Susano'o had no original strength that it was slowly recovering as time went on; Sasuke created that Susano'o right then and there, and it's power is limited to the amount of chakra he had at his disposal. The Juubi on the other hand is an ancient entity that had an original strength far beyond Sasuke's Susano'o, which it was slowly recovering, even w/o needing to have all of it's original chakra.


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## Rocky (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The whole point of the Juubi was that it was slowly reviving towards it's original power even without needing all of it's original chakra to be sealed within it.


No, it was revived at below its original strength and didn't begin closing that gap until it started absorbing the chakra of other things. It wasn't just randomly returning to its original strength.


Turrin said:


> Then as the battle went on Juubi continued to grow in strength and evolve. Which once again is the difference between the Juubi and Sasuke's Susano'o.


Yeah, it started off jobbing and kept powering up. Sasuke just went to full power right away. The creature that was revived in Chapter 610, all of its forms included, is objectively inferior to the creature Sasuke created with the same exact ingredients plus the two strongest bijū and a better container. The tree wanted its chakra back for a reason.


Turrin said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o had no original strength that it was slowly recovering as time went on.


Neither did the empty gedo statue, which is the exact role Sasuke's Susanoo took.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I fail to see what your point is.
> 
> Sasuke took the Chakra of 8 Bijuu and 50% Kurama and combined it with his Susano'o. K cool, that's still taking the chakra of the 8 Bijuu and 50% Kurama, no more no less.
> 
> This is still different than using the chakra of the Bijuu to revive an ancient entity that possess far greater strength than the 9 Bijuu combined. Let's remember that Juubi's power is not just the power of the 9 Bijuu, but rather the power of the God-Tree and Kaguya, which is far greater than that.



He didn't absorb just their collective power, but combined them to reform the Juubi. If what you're saying is true, there wouldn't have been any point in combining their power when there separate powers alone add up to the Juubi.

There wasn't any point at which the Juubi contained Kaguya and the Shinju's power and I'm not even sure how that makes sense considering Madara and Obito were both watered-down versions of Kaguya let alone Hagoromo and Hamura.



> Edit: I think the problem your running into is your assuming Juubi's power is equivalent to the 9 Bijuu, but remember Juubi's power was not just split among the 9 Bijuu, first it was split between Hagoromo and Hamura, then it was further split to amongst many other humans and their sons, before finally being split into the 9 Bijuu and Gedo-Mazo.
> 
> Sasuke doing the reverse of what the Sage did, but with only 8 Bijuu and 1/2 of Kurama is nowhere near the Juubi's power
> 
> Like I said it should be roughly equivalent to what Madara did, where Madara also took a large chunk of the Juubi's power (100% Kurama) and combined it with his Susano'o.



Er, I'm certain you neglected the part when the Shinju was thriving off of retrieving what was originally hers' (chakra), so the Juubi was never revived at Full Power to begin with.


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## Sapherosth (Oct 30, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> What he had The same size Susanoo at the end of the Kages ARC AND susanoo in the fight vs Kabuto their Susanoo were exactly the same size they utilized at the same techniques and the same eye power , Minato used a finitely different skill set so initially yes he surpassed Minato in speed but Minato's abilities were more complex , he could still slice up guys he tagged yrs prior , he still had death reaper seal , could use chakra transfer whose was compared well into the war and at that time Minato was still compared to Naruto , Sasuke still with his EMS held a different benchmark in Madara Itachi was never brought up in comparison with Sasuke as deep into the war as Naruto beings compared to Minato
> 
> As soon as Sasuke gets EMS he could do what Itachi could do but longer and better if they both spam PS in a human body Sasuke trumps him , Naruto just using his KCM didn't prove he could trump Minato and remember Naruto had much longer to train his KCM than Sasuke had with EMD duke had just taken he bandages off




Pretty sure that the last time that Naruto was compared with Minato was when Kakashi was shocked at Naruto's speed deflecting the bijuubombs (before the Kabuto v Itachi/Sasuke fight). 

I think it's clear that Kishi intended for Naruto/Sasuke to surpass Itachi/Minato during the war after they've mastered their forms respectively (EMS/KCM). 

Even if Naruto and Minato were compared later in the war, it is a stronger form of Minato (BM) which is way stronger than the alive version.


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## ARGUS (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Firstly, It's bigger than the mountains right next to it.


True, but it's still around the mountain level


> Secondly it's still that size after being slowed down by 5 Roshomon and crossing the dam ocean.


agreed, but not sure what point you're making 
 the Rashomon were only used to deflect them 
Momentum won't affect the bombs power either
The chakra inside the bomb affects its power, and all of its damage stems from the explosion itself 




> Prove that Hashirama and Madara's clash wasn't felt that far away


Doesn't need to be felt 
The blast radius difference already proves it 

when he got orochimaru from a distance much larger than mei could even span
It covered all of vote here 
and spanned this large 


The red is the bare minimal blast size 

A distance far greater than vote1 spanned 
Not to mention that vote3 explosion also had lightning strikes destroying several landscapes even more


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, it was revived at below its original strength and didn't begin closing that gap until it started absorbing the chakra of other things. It wasn't just randomly returning to its original strength.


Yes it was returning to it's original strength. It was revived initially way stronger than 7+ Bijuu. It returned closer to it's original strength when it evolved to it's second form. Then later it returned even close when it grew in size and became more muscle bound. 

Sasuke on the other hand empowered Susano'o with a set amount of chakra. Like I've repeated multiple times before Sasuke's Susano'o was not an ancient demon that was slowly recovering it's former power.



UchihaX28 said:


> He didn't absorb just their collective power, but combined them to reform the Juubi.


He didn't reform the Juubi, Juubi is it's own entity with it's own power. Sasuke combined their power, to enhance his Susano'o.



> If what you're saying is true, there wouldn't have been any point in combining their power when there separate powers alone add up to the Juubi.


My whole point is that their separate power alone does not add up to the Juubi. Their power allowed the revival of the Juubi. Sasuke did not revive his Susano'o....

And the point was to collect all the Bijuu chakra within his Susano'o to enhance it.



> There wasn't any point at which the Juubi contained Kaguya and the Shinju's power and I'm not even sure how that makes sense considering Madara and Obito were both watered-down versions of Kaguya let alone Hagoromo and Hamura.


The fourth Data-book states that Juubi is the combination of Kaguya and the Shinju Tree's power.





> Er, I'm certain you neglected the part when the Shinju was thriving off of retrieving what was originally hers' (chakra), so the Juubi was never revived at Full Power to begin with.


The Juubi was not revived at full power, but it continued to recover it's power, growing in strength throughout the war, becoming more powerful. Sasuke's Susano'o did not grow in strength as the battle went on, it's original power was the exact power it was demonstrating in that moment.


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> True, but it's still around the mountain level
> 
> agreed, but not sure what point you're making
> the Rashomon were only used to deflect them
> ...


I think via Kishi logic the bomb's power is reduced from all that. After all we saw just a swing of Kurama-Susano'o sword was enough to bust like 10 mountains at once, and now your telling me the Mecha's TBB+Susano'o sword is just on the level of a single mountain, doesn't make much sense to me, unless the power was reduced.



> when he got orochimaru from a distance much larger than mei could even span
> It covered all of vote here


I'm not sure how you can assert something is larger because it covered the VOTE, when Hashirama and Madara's clash created the VOTE 



> The red is the bare minimal blast size
> 
> A distance far greater than vote1 spanned
> Not to mention that vote3 explosion also had lightning strikes destroying several landscapes even more


Huh, the blast didn't span that large the shockwave did. And there is no indication that the shockwave of Hashirama and Madara's clash wasn't felt that far as well, considering how massive the explosion of that final clash was.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think the disparity is relative. But when talking God-Tiers the powers-levels are enormous so the gaps appear bigger. For example:
> 
> If Hashirama's PL is 10,000 and Juubito's is 11,000, this is a gap of 1,000 points.
> Now let's say Jiraiya's PL is 200, and Orochimaru's is 100.
> ...



Jiraiya isn't twice as strong as Orochimaru though he's stronger but not twice as strong that would mean he could defeat Orochimaru or someone on his level by himself and that's just not true 

Juubito had what Rikudo had the power he split between the two sons which created the bloodlines Uchiha/Senju , just like Kaguya but not as strong 

He could've easily said He's stronger than me now that I'm an Edo Tensei or if I were in my real
Body I could've taken him on there were no qualifiers like with Orochimaru/Hiruzen , or like Itachi/Sasuke he just flat out said the man was stronger than him you would have to prove it's just because he's an Edo Tensei and considering the war was fan service to showcase their abilities They were performing on the level they would in life shit you had some like Minato that got stronger , Hashirama still had his Sage Mode seeing as how Madara took it from him and even then you could say he was stalemating with a Rinnegan Madara who was also handicapped and then when Masada got his living body he blitzed him and finished him off showing his superiority 

They helped the entire battle , they saved them , help them set up attacks , healed they wouldn't have gotten that far of not for the aid of Minato and Tobirama 

As we saw in the mind world Naruto was flinging around Kurama like a rag doll now add in 50 % to what Sage Mode could do and I would say Kurama+ Sage Mode Naruto>100% Kurama just like Sasuke having Sage Mode with his Susanoo > Madara PS and remember Sage Mode was important because It was the only thing that could harm him 

How is having 8 Bijuu + 50 % equivalent to Madara or are you saying Madara VOTE had the power he had as Juubidara or the level of Hagoromo because if that's the case his entire plot would be stupid because Kurama directly compared what Sasuke did to Hagoromo someone much stronger than Madara because ya know he was trying to replicate his power 


Right he needed Hashirama power to attain the Rinnegan ,  and he needed the tailed beast to power Gedo Medco to seal inside himself you don't need Hashirama cells to control Rinnegan as Sasuke doesn't have that and uses the Rinnegan , Nagato was able to use the Rinnegan ect

How is a fraction of all the tailed beast + 50 % of Kurama weaker than just  100 % to me if you add that on top of SM then that certainly is enough to give Hashirama a fight but I said Hashirama was stronger than this Naruto anyways 

Rikudo Power didn't make up the gap it exceeded it just a question how on earth is Hashirama going to deal with Madara/Kaguya speed how is he going to deal with Limbo , Sasuke needed Rinnegan to see the clones and the black orbs were saving Naruto from Kaguya's attacks if Hashirama/Masada fight Juubidara or Kaguya just of speed decificecny alone they get stomped 

Yeah but Sasuke had all that on top of the Rinnegan , And Naruto SM have him the black orbs that were disenegrsting people on touch 

Because Hagoromo split his power which resulted in the two clans he even pre Tailed beast sealing the Sharrinnegan which was a superior power to EMS Madara's and Hashirama's power was diluted from what Hagoromo gave his son Sage Mode and Rinnegan he was born with  those powers and his brother wasn't far off from his power 

Yeah because Kaguya is that powerful Hashirama/Masada are fleas to her but Naruto/Sasuke still had the power to seal her they had the speed to keep up with her and land attacks on her , and Sasuke had the Rinnegan to end the infinite genjutsu VOTE duo in MC's place and they die and fail to save the alliance even with the same support MC's had


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure that the last time that Naruto was compared with Minato was when Kakashi was shocked at Naruto's speed deflecting the bijuubombs (before the Kabuto v Itachi/Sasuke fight).
> 
> I think it's clear that Kishi intended for Naruto/Sasuke to surpass Itachi/Minato during the war after they've mastered their forms respectively (EMS/KCM).
> 
> Even if Naruto and Minato were compared later in the war, it is a stronger form of Minato (BM) which is way stronger than the alive version.



No Kurama also compared Naruto to Minato with using the chakra transfer technique 

Yeah they did Sasuke just surpassed Itachi with EMS while Naruto had KCM>BM to surpass Itachi , no Minato could use chakra transfer in life

Sasuke with PS dwarfs Itachi , he actually surpassed him once he obtained the eyes it's just he didn't get a proper chance to showcase his skills but what he did show he would win a war of attrition with Alive Itachi because he can use his powers more sparingly


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tier 2
> Ashura
> Indra
> *Hashirama*
> ...



buhahahahaha _what

_


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Jiraiya isn't twice as strong as Orochimaru though he's stronger but not twice as strong that would mean he could defeat Orochimaru or someone on his level by himself and that's just not true


I'm not sure if I'd say he's exactly twice as strong, but I do think the difference in strength between Jiraiya is significantly stronger than Orochimaru.



> uubito had what Rikudo had the power he split between the two sons which created the bloodlines Uchiha/Senju , just like Kaguya but not as strong
> 
> He could've easily said He's stronger than me now that I'm an Edo Tensei or if I were in my real
> Body I could've taken him on there were no qualifiers like with Orochimaru/Hiruzen , or like Itachi/Sasuke he just flat out said the man was stronger than him you would have to prove it's just because he's an Edo Tensei and considering the war was fan service to showcase their abilities T


He could have also easily said he's "stronger than me in my prime", so we can both play this game. And no it's you that have to prove he was talking about his Prime, because he used the present tense, which would naturally mean he is talking about his current power. 



> hey were performing on the level they would in life shit you had some like Minato that got stronger , Hashirama still had his Sage Mode seeing as how Madara took it from him and even then you could say he was stalemating with a Rinnegan Madara who was also handicapped and then when Masada got his living body he blitzed him and finished him off showing his superiority


Show me Edo-Hashirama doing anything even remotely close to the level his Senpo Shin Suusenju at VOTE and i'll concede.

Minato getting strong is a disingenuous as fuck argument, when Minato got 50% Kurama, while Hashirama got no such power up. 



> They helped the entire battle , they saved them , help them set up attacks , healed they wouldn't have gotten that far of not for the aid of Minato and Tobirama


K cool, and yet Sasuke and Naruto didn't make use of their power when they over powered Juubito, so that's pointless to bring up.



> As we saw in the mind world Naruto was flinging around Kurama like a rag doll now add in 50 % to what Sage Mode could do and I would say Kurama+ Sage Mode Naruto>100% Kurama just like Sasuke having Sage Mode with his Susanoo > Madara PS and remember Sage Mode was important because It was the only thing that could harm him


Come on bruv, SM-Naruto had a huge amount of help and circumstantial advantages, just to steal some of Kurama's chakra. 50% Kurama is above Toad-SM. But even if it's not, that doesn't put Naruto anywhere near Hashirama or Madara, that puts him on par with just 100% Kurama. Madara had 100% Kurama + P-Susano'o which was equal to 100% Kurama, and was able to combine them both to further enhance that power. That's still way above Naruto even if we say Toad-SM + 50% Kurama = 100% Kurama.



> How is having 8 Bijuu + 50 % equivalent to Madara or are you saying Madara VOTE had the power he had as Juubidara or the level of Hagoromo because if that's the case his entire plot would be stupid because Kurama directly compared what Sasuke did to Hagoromo someone much stronger than Madara because ya know he was trying to replicate his pow


Because 8-Bijuu = 50% Kurama according to Itachi.

So 8-Bijuu + 50% Kurama = 100% Kurama. 



> Right he needed Hashirama power to attain the Rinnegan , and he needed the tailed beast to power Gedo Medco to seal inside himself you don't need Hashirama cells to control Rinnegan as Sasuke doesn't have that and uses the Rinnegan , Nagato was able to use the Rinnegan ect


Sasuke does have Hashirama's cells, Kabuto gave them too him



> How is a fraction of all the tailed beast + 50 % of Kurama weaker than just 100 % to me if you add that on top of SM then that certainly is enough to give Hashirama a fight but I said Hashirama was stronger than this Naruto anyways


How the fuck is it equal to Hashirama is the better questions when Base-Hashirama's Mokujin by itself was stated to be equal to 100% Kurama, and then Hashirama also took P-Susano'o on at the same time; this was all just Base-Hashirama too.



> Rikudo Power didn't make up the gap it exceeded it just a question how on earth is Hashirama going to deal with Madara/Kaguya speed how is he going to deal with Limbo , Sasuke needed Rinnegan to see the clones and the black orbs were saving Naruto from Kaguya's attacks if Hashirama/Masada fight Juubidara or Kaguya just of speed decificecny alone they get stomped


The same way Sakura and Kakashi dealt with Madara/Kaguya's speed. 

Naruto was also able to feel Limbo clones with SM, potentially Hashirama can do the same with his SM.



> Yeah but Sasuke had all that on top of the Rinnegan , And Naruto SM have him the black orbs that were disenegrsting people on touch
> 
> Because Hagoromo split his power which resulted in the two clans he even pre Tailed beast sealing the Sharrinnegan which was a superior power to EMS Madara's and Hashirama's power was diluted from what Hagoromo gave his son Sage Mode and Rinnegan he was born with those powers and his brother wasn't far off from his power
> 
> Yeah because Kaguya is that powerful Hashirama/Masada are fleas to her but Naruto/Sasuke still had the power to seal her they had the speed to keep up with her and land attacks on her , and Sasuke had the Rinnegan to end the infinite genjutsu VOTE duo in MC's place and they die and fail to save the alliance even with the same support MC's had


All of these assertions are based on nothing, until you explain how Hashirama and Madara's power is inferior to Naruto and Sasuke's.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure if I'd say he's exactly twice as strong, but I do think the difference in strength between Jiraiya is significantly stronger than Orochimaru.
> 
> 
> He could have also easily said he's "stronger than me in my prime", so we can both play this game. And no it's you that have to prove he was talking about his Prime, because he used the present tense, which would naturally mean he is talking about his current power.
> ...



I think Jiraiya is closer to Orochimaru considering  the amount  people needed to take on Juubito would dwarf the amount of people Orochimaru would need to take on Jiraiya shit with prep he could push him and the reverence Jiraiya held him indicated he would be a worthy foe , Tsunade someone I consider close to Orochimaru was said to be able to kill him 

If he meant in his Prime Kishimoto would've said so and to my knowledge Hiruzen consigned by saying he's stronger than GOS

Hashirama had those black marks under his eyes and also most of his fight with Masada was off panel and the fact Edo Madara could still use Ps and Rinnegan he would be have to be pretty forimidable to stalemate him 

Yeah but that's just saying not every Edo performed worse than their living form , same with Itachi like I said these guys wer here to show the fans what they can do this was a showcase for their abitlies that was our only chance to see them in battle why weaken them ?

But it still indicates they needed a ton of help to get as far as they did in battle 

But you're talking about Sage Mode on top of having Kurama mastered to BM on top of Naruto's own base which was Kage level with Summons , Clones , FRS and once he could control 50 % he could control the whole thing which Minato have him the other side anyways so technically even before Hagoromo he would have had the other half anyway and Sasuke immediately had the bigger P.S 

Where does Itachi say this because of Madara had this much power why would he go thru all that trouble to get the bijuu and that relationship with Jose beasts was mirroring Rikudo which meant he could draw on more than a little bit of their power

Sasuke didn't have Hashirama cells because his hand would have grown back that was just used to heal him currently he's using Rinnegan with his own chakra 

I didn't say it was equal Naruto is weaker same tier just like you think Jubbito is stronger than Hashirama same tier same thing 

Sakura stayed back healed and was turtled up in Sasuke's Susanoo and the only time Kakashi was relevant in the fight he pulled DMS out of his ass and even Sasuke was saying they were a hinderance so no they didn't have the ability to protect themselves for most of the fight 

I'm pretty sure Naruto's Rikudo SM was superior to Hashirama but what about VOTE Madara he can't see it w/o Rinnegan and they needed that top tier speed to deal with it , Sasuke user teleporation techs something Madara doesn't have 

That battle had two goals Seal Kaguya , end Infinite Genjutsu how on earth are VOTE duo going to do that


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## Sadgoob (Oct 30, 2016)

*Danzo*

Danzo wasn't implied to be better than Itachi or Sasuke by anybody. Obito and Sasuke both talked shit on Danzo for being an Uchiha wannabe. He was incredibly disrespected and minimized in portrayal relative to his hax. At the end of the fight, Obito even said "You never stood against a true Uchiha with the MS" and ultimately lost to a genjutsu Obito called weak.

*Minato*

Saying base Minato was the benchmark for BM Naruto is pretty ludicrous. At the War Arc, the bechmarks for BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were pretty clear: Edo Hashirama and Edo Madara, with Rinnegan/Jubito being the main antagonist. Base Minato, along with Jiraiya, was pointblank said to be surpassed by Naruto after beating Pain.


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think Jiraiya is closer to Orochimaru considering  the amount  people needed to take on Juubito would dwarf the amount of people Orochimaru would need to take on Jiraiya shit with prep he could push him and the reverence Jiraiya held him indicated he would be a worthy foe , Tsunade someone I consider close to Orochimaru was said to be able to kill him
> that


I don't know what you mean by this.



> If he meant in his Prime Kishimoto would've said so and to my knowledge Hiruzen consigned by saying he's stronger than GOS


Like I said we can play this game both ways. So it's a waste of my time to continue this. 



> Hashirama had those black marks under his eyes and also most of his fight with Masada was off panel and the fact Edo Madara could still use Ps and Rinnegan he would be have to be pretty forimidable to stalemate him
> 
> Yeah but that's just saying not every Edo performed worse than their living form , same with Itachi like I said these guys wer here to show the fans what they can do this was a showcase for their abitlies that was our only chance to see them in battle why weaken them ?


Kishimoto made a point to mention twice that the Edos were weaker; both Tobirama and Madara bring it up. He also had Edo-Hashirama perform nowhere near VOTE-Hashirama. So I don't agree.



> But you're talking about Sage Mode on top of having Kurama mastered to BM on top of Naruto's own base which was Kage level with Summons , Clones , FRS and once he could control 50 % he could control the whole thing which Minato have him the other side anyways so technically even before Hagoromo he would have had the other half anyway and Sasuke immediately had the bigger P.S


What are you talking about lol. 

Naruto never had both halves of Kurama. EMS-Sasuke's P-Susano'o was never on the scale of Madara's.

Naruto had 50% Kurama and Toad-SM. 

Sasuke had a P-Susano'o which was equal to 50% Kurama and Juugo's CS

Madara had a P-Susano'o which was equal to 100% Kurama,  100% Kurama, and Super Mecha Fusion of both.

Base-Hashirama took on 100% Kurama and P-Susano'o, which was equal to 100% Kurama at the same time; and than SM-Hashirama took on the even more powerful Super Mecha of Both

I fail to see how it's hard for you to grasp the massive difference here.




> Where does Itachi say this because of Madara had this much power why would he go thru all that trouble to get the bijuu and that relationship with Jose beasts was mirroring Rikudo which meant he could draw on more than a little bit of their power


Madara went through the trouble of collecting the Bijuu to awaken Juubi so he could use Mugen Tsukuyomi.



> Sasuke didn't have Hashirama cells because his hand would have grown back that was just used to heal him currently he's using Rinnegan with his own chakra


Kabuto put Hashirama's cells in Sasuke:
impressing SM Naruto with his speed



> I didn't say it was equal Naruto is weaker same tier just like you think Jubbito is stronger than Hashirama same tier same thing


He's not the same tier, he's not even remotely close. Madara had 100% Kurama and P-Susano'o which is equal to 100% Kurama, which equals 200% Kurama. Hashirama took that on in Base. Naruto has 1/4 that power w/ 50% Kurama. So unless your claim is that Toad-SM makes up the other 150% which would be absolutely ridiculous, he's not even close to Base-Hashirama.



> Sakura stayed back healed and was turtled up in Sasuke's Susanoo and the only time Kakashi was relevant in the fight he pulled DMS out of his ass and even Sasuke was saying they were a hinderance so no they didn't have the ability to protect themselves for most of the fight


Sakura evaded Kaguya's attack, than landed an attack of her own before Kaguya could defend herself. Kakashi also evaded and countered Kaguya's attacks landing his own, yeah it was with DMS, but DMS was not even as strong as VOTE-Hashirama or Madara.



> I'm pretty sure Naruto's Rikudo SM was superior to Hashirama but what about VOTE Madara he can't see it w/o Rinnegan and they needed that top tier speed to deal with it , Sasuke user teleporation techs something Madara doesn't have
> 
> How on earth would Naruto and Sasuke have done that without the Sage giving them the specific Jutsu to do so? If the Sage gave Madara and Hashirama the same Jutsu they would be able to accomplish the same thing.


The plot gave Naruto and Sasuke the right tools they needed for each situation, allowing them to accomplish what they did together. Bare in mind that VOTE-Madara would perform worse against any Juubi-Jin then SM-Jiraiya, simply because he can't use Senjutsu to actually damage a Juubi-Jin; that doesn't mean however that SM-Jiraiya is > VOTE-Madara. The same was Naruto would have lost to Mugen-Tsukuyomi even after Hagoromo power up, simply due to the fact that only Rinnegan can defend against it; but the fact that Sasuke could defend it, but he couldn't didn't make Sasuke superior to Naruto, in-fact it was the reverse. Juubidara and Kaguya each had unique abilities that required very specific tools to overcome; the plot provided Naruto and Sasuke those tools, plus back up.

Saying Hashirama and Madara would have done worse if they faced Juubidara or Kaguya straight up, goes without saying as they wouldn't have the plot pending over backwards to give them the right tools to deal with Juubidara and Kaguya specialized abilities. However that doesn't mean Naruto and Sasuke were far stronger than VOTE Madara and Hashirama individually, due to having these tools.

For instances Naruto and Sasuke were able to defeat Kaguya because Hagoromo gave them the ability to cast the Chibaku-Tensei seal together. However that power is not helping ether of them individually in a 1v1 against Hashirama or Madara, as they can't cast the technique by themselves. Like wise Sasuke was able to shelter them from Mugen Tsukuyomi thanks to his Rinnegan natural countering it, but that's meaningless in a fight against VOTE-Madara or Hashirama, as nether of them use that technique. Naruto and Sasuke were able to deal with Kaguya's dimension transfer because they had powerful Space-Time users on their team to help them overcome it; VOTE-Hashirama and Madara don't use Space-Time Jutsu and they won't have Kakashi or Obito there to help them in a 1v1. 

With that said, I do think Naruto and Sasuke are potentially slightly superior to those 2, because they had better modes; S06P-SM and Rinnegan, problem is Sasuke had yet to master Rinnegan and Naruto was lacking 50% or Kurama, so due to these short comings the advantage of these better power ups was not enormous, relative to Hashirama and Madara's powers at VOTE.


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Saying base Minato was the benchmark for BM Naruto is pretty ludicrous. At the War Arc, the bechmarks for BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were pretty clear: Edo Hashirama and Edo Madara, with Rinnegan/Jubito being the main antagonist. Base Minato, along with Jiraiya, was pointblank said to be surpassed by Naruto after beating Pain.


Considering no one said that I don't even know what your reading.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Considering no one said that I don't even know what your reading.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 31, 2016)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Though eventually Obito did become outright superior to Minato by becoming the Juubi-Jinchuuriki.



That is *rich* given the fact that Obito at age 14 (before even having spare eyes for Izanagi) went singlehandedly into Konoha and used jutsu that resulted in the deaths of Minato, Kushina, and many other Konoha ninja while he walked out with no lasting injuries.


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2016)

Considering no one said Base-Minato, I don't even know what your reading...

Though surpassing doesn't necessarily mean becoming stronger then anyway, but considering that you openly admit that you don't actually believe anything you argue here, and are just trying to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, i'm not going to waste my time discussing that topic with yo further.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 31, 2016)

The image makes it clear that it should be:

*Adversary:* Pain
*Benchmark: *Jiriaya/Minato
*Main Character:* Naruto

It's literally the only time your system is literally drawn out and stated by the author.


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The image makes it clear that it should be:
> 
> *Adversary:* Pain
> *Benchmark: *Jiriaya/Minato
> ...


Trolololo.... Am I right


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> He didn't reform the Juubi, Juubi is it's own entity with it's own power. Sasuke combined their power, to enhance his Susano'o.



Link removed

 He literally did the reverse of what Hagoromo did by using the collective power of the Bijuu to recreate the Juubi as opposed to Hagoromo who divided up the Juubi into nine separate beings.



> My whole point is that their separate power alone does not add up to the Juubi. Their power allowed the revival of the Juubi. Sasuke did not revive his Susano'o....
> 
> And the point was to collect all the Bijuu chakra within his Susano'o to enhance it.



  His Susano'o was substituted for the Mazo and the revival process wasn't required when Sasuke could manipulate the Bijuu as Hagoromo did via Creation of All Things/ Outer Path.




> The fourth Data-book states that Juubi is the combination of Kaguya and the Shinju Tree's power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 This is something I was already aware of, but it's clear that the Juubi was nowhere near its full power, so using this as the foundation for your argument is futile. We were literally shown that the Juubi blew the collective power of the Bijuu out of the water* in it weakest form*, so there's literally no way Sasuke's BPS harnessed a power below that level of power.

 I understand what you're saying, but it was clear that the Juubi never retrieved anywhere close to Kaguya's power. Just examine Obito's strength and you'll see there's a massive disparity between the War Arc Juubi and Kaguya/Shinju.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2016)

Reading back through that list, I also have to question the thought process behind the gap between Orochimaru & Jiraiya being > the gap between Hashirama & Kaguya.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 1, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't know what you mean by this.
> 
> 
> Like I said we can play this game both ways. So it's a waste of my time to continue this.
> ...



What I mean is it's not feasible for Jiraiya to be twice as strong as Orochimaru because based on portrayal and feats no way would it take two Orochimaru's to defeat Jiraiya especially when they clashed in the past and also the fact Tsunade someone on Orochimaru's level as stated by Jiraiya himself to possess the skills nesserary to be dangerous to him

Where as with Juubito we literally see multiple High Kage's competing against him at once

He said all Edo's or was it the ones who couldn't utilize their fully potential like Sasori who didn't have his puppets or Hanzo who was brought back rusty or those who were directly under Kabuto's control , hashirama to my knowledge wasn't hindered by neither seeing as how he broke control of Orochimaru and was never specified to be weaker matter of fact he stalemated Madara who could still use his PS off Panel

No what I'm saying is that Minato had given Naruto the other 50% while the other half was ripped out so immediately it given the other half by Minato

Naruto in BM showed he could take multiple tailed beast on at once , in


Turrin said:


> I don't know what you mean by this.
> 
> 
> Like I said we can play this game both ways. So it's a waste of my time to continue this.
> ...


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 1, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> What I mean is it's not feasible for Jiraiya to be twice as strong as Orochimaru because based on portrayal and feats no way would it take two Orochimaru's to defeat Jiraiya especially when they clashed in the past and also the fact Tsunade someone on Orochimaru's level as stated by Jiraiya himself to possess the skills nesserary to be dangerous to him
> 
> Where as with Juubito we literally see multiple High Kage's competing against him at once
> 
> ...



Manga is predicated on help/circumstantial advantages , asspull abilites but it's all about the portrayal Kishi isn't thinking like well let me see here I'm going to have Sasuke counter the GOAT genjutsu but I don't know if this makes him stronger than Hashirama in a one on one fight , or this means he's stronger than Naruto one on one because Naruto did equally impressive things and did things Sasuke couldn't do like repairing Kakashi's eyes , saving Gai from certain death transferring his chakra to the entire alliance 

I look back I give Itachi high marks for Izanami because that was his hero moment what the manga is built on not one vs one fights


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Link removed
> He literally did the reverse of what Hagoromo did by using the collective power of the Bijuu to recreate the Juubi as opposed to Hagoromo who divided up the Juubi into nine separate beings.


Hagoromo split the remaining power of the Juubi into new entities the 9 Bijuu. Sasuke did the reverse and combined them into a new entity: Susano'o. The focus here being on the new entity part. Sasuke did not revive the Juubi again he created something new.



> His Susano'o was substituted for the Mazo and the revival process wasn't required when Sasuke could manipulate the Bijuu as Hagoromo did via Creation of All Things/ Outer Path.


The revival process just plain didn't happen, because Sasuke wasn't reviving anything, he was creating something new. I.E. Creation of all Things.



> This is something I was already aware of, but it's clear that the Juubi was nowhere near its full power, so using this as the foundation for your argument is futile. We were literally shown that the Juubi blew the collective power of the Bijuu out of the water* in it weakest form*, so there's literally no way Sasuke's BPS harnessed a power below that level of power.


This only reinforces my point though. The Bijuu was used to revive an entity that was stronger than the Bijuu. Juubi wasn't at full power when it was initially revived, but it continued to recover it's power over the course of the war.

This is different than creating a new entity that is limited to an existing power. 



> I understand what you're saying, but it was clear that the Juubi never retrieved anywhere close to Kaguya's power. Just examine Obito's strength and you'll see there's a massive disparity between the War Arc Juubi and Kaguya/Shinju.


Is that due to the Juubi's power being insufficient or is that due to Obito using the Juubi's power insufficiently?


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> What I mean is it's not feasible for Jiraiya to be twice as strong as Orochimaru because based on portrayal and feats no way would it take two Orochimaru's to defeat Jiraiya especially when they clashed in the past and also the fact Tsunade someone on Orochimaru's level as stated by Jiraiya himself to possess the skills nesserary to be dangerous to him


I didn't say it was necessarily double, that was just an example. I simply believe the gap was relatively bigger than the one between Juubito and Hashirama imo.

And yes I do think it fits with portrayal. Jiraiya could use a "God-Mode" [SM] that Orochimaru failed to achieve. And as we've seen SM makes some-one vastly more powerful. Fuck you have argued in this same discussion that SM makes up for 50% Kurama's power.



> Where as with Juubito we literally see multiple High Kage's competing against him at once


I already explained this too you, based on the power-levels being absurdly high. Just like Jiriaya could also take on multiple High-Jonin.



> He said all Edo's or was it the ones who couldn't utilize their fully potential like Sasori who didn't have his puppets or Hanzo who was brought back rusty or those who were directly under Kabuto's control , hashirama to my knowledge wasn't hindered by neither seeing as how he broke control of Orochimaru and was never specified to be weaker matter of fact he stalemated Madara who could still use his PS off Panel


Both Tobirama and Madara said the Hokages were not revived at full power.

And as I said Hashirama showed nothing close to his Senpo Shin Suu Senju. So him being weaker fits.




> No what I'm saying is that Minato had given Naruto the other 50% while the other half was ripped out so immediately it given the other half by Minato


Cool, but than Naruto was still missing half....



> Naruto in BM showed he could take multiple tailed beast on at once ,


Of course he could, as 50% Kurama was stated to be around the level of the other 8 Tailed Beast Combined. This however is not a feat that measures up to Base-Hashirama's feat of being able to take 2 entities who were each 100% Kurama level in strength at the same time.



> Manga is predicated on help/circumstantial advantages , asspull abilites but it's all about the portrayal Kishi isn't thinking like well let me see here I'm going to have Sasuke counter the GOAT genjutsu but I don't know if this makes him stronger than Hashirama in a one on one fight , or this means he's stronger than Naruto one on one because Naruto did equally impressive things and did things Sasuke couldn't do like repairing Kakashi's eyes , saving Gai from certain death transferring his chakra to the entire alliance


Yes and Hashirama also did equally or nearly equally impressive things in his hero moment at VOTE.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 2, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I didn't say it was necessarily double, that was just an example. I simply believe the gap was relatively bigger than the one between Juubito and Hashirama imo.
> 
> And yes I do think it fits with portrayal. Jiraiya could use a "God-Mode" [SM] that Orochimaru failed to achieve. And as we've seen SM makes some-one vastly more powerful. Fuck you have argued in this same discussion that SM makes up for 50% Kurama's power.
> 
> ...



I think at best both are equal because they fit the same criteria where they are not twice as strong , Jiraiya can't do to Orochimaru what he did Konan/Kisame it would just go against everything in their portrayal how he , Hiruzen and Orochimaru's standing in the manga Orochimaru would get his ass kicked but he would push Jiraiya most def , just the same way he would push Itachi that's always been my argument they are stronger but not to the point he's fodder to them , with Juubito vs Hashirama harder to conclude but I would think the gap would be wider with them simply because I couldn't see Hashirama taking the entire alliance with 4 Edo Hokage on top of that simply because Hashirama best shown ability is the Buddha , Alliance took on Juubi which is stronger than Buddha 

Most of Hashirama fight was off paneled but he was able to use SM and he didn't specify the gap between them was because of him being an Edo Tensei , of it was because he was weakened then why say even stronger than me when that announcement would lack impact of it is due to his weakened state especially when you're dealing with hyping Juubi Jin 

But BM also defended and was able to do damage to Juubi something stronger than Buddha

Hashirama did nothing as impressive as ending infinite genjutsu


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## Amol (Nov 2, 2016)

Hashirama being on same level(or above) as Rikudo powered Naruto and Sasuke 
Either of them can absolutely fodder stomp 10 any version of Hashirama without sweating 
So many holes in this list .


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think at best both are equal because they fit the same criteria where they are not twice as strong , Jiraiya can't do to Orochimaru what he did Konan/Kisame it would just go against everything in their portrayal how he


Jiraiya is more then twice as strong as Kisame. Konan he had knowledge of her weakness and the perfect Jutsu to exploit it.



> it would just go against everything in their portrayal how he , Hiruzen and Orochimaru's standing in the manga Orochimaru would get his ass kicked but he would push Jiraiya most def , just the same way he would push Itachi that's always been my argument they are stronger but not to the point he's fodder to them


I didn't ever suggest Orochimaru was fodder to Jiraiya.



> with Juubito vs Hashirama harder to conclude but I would think the gap would be wider with them simply because I couldn't see Hashirama taking the entire alliance with 4 Edo Hokage on top of that simply because Hashirama best shown ability is the Buddha , Alliance took on Juubi which is stronger than Buddha


The alliance members basically said they couldn't do jack shit in Edo-Hashirama vs Edo-Madara's fight, and there Edo-Hashirama was only using Mokujin, let alone the Senpo Shin Suusenju he used at VOTE. So alliance is adding nothing here. 

And Juubito never took on the 4 Edo-Hokage at the same time. The only 2 he fought at the same time were Minato and Tobirama, which I think Hashirama could easily take.



> Most of Hashirama fight was off paneled but he was able to use SM and he didn't specify the gap between them was because of him being an Edo Tensei ,


Madara later said the reason Hashirama was loosing is due to him being unable to draw out the same strength as when he was alive...



> of it was because he was weakened then why say even stronger than me when that announcement would lack impact of it is due to his weakened state especially when you're dealing with hyping Juubi Jin


It still has impact because even weakened Edo-Hashirama was still the strongest character on the side of the heroes at that time. So Juubito being stronger than Edo-Hashirama is still huge hype and a big problem for the alliance. But bottom line is I'm not going to go back and forth on this over and over again, I already said this can be argued both ways.



> But BM also defended and was able to do damage to Juubi something stronger than Buddha


When did BM do any significant damage to the Juubi? 

But also since when do we evaluate "power-level" based on ability to do damage. Hachibi did damage to Juubi too, but is nowhere near Senpo Shin Suusenju in strength, which overpowered Susano'o-kyuubi Gundam.


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