# Is Jiraya mid Kage or high Kage level?



## Gianfi (Jun 11, 2017)

Title says all. Jiraya has access to SM obviously.


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## White Wolf (Jun 11, 2017)

Submarine level

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

High Kage are people like Minato, Tobirama, Pain, Prime Hanzo, etc. So Jiraya is a high-Mid Kage not High Kage.

Overall, Kage level tiers looks like this in my opinion :
High Kage : Minato, Tobirama, Prime Hiruzen, Itachi, Pain, Prime Hanzo, etc
Mid Kage : people like Sannin, Edo Kage (bar Rasa), A4, Onoki, SM Naruto/MS Sasuke, etc with Sasori and Sandaime Kazekage being the weakest ones.
Low Kage : Akatsuki members such as Kakuzu, Kisame, Deidara and many other fighters like Hebi Sasuke, Mei, Start of P2 Gaara, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2017)

I'd rank Jiraiya as High Kage lvl though I got him at the bottom of tier

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jun 11, 2017)

He is either the highest mid kage or lowest high kage.
As shown by interactions with the other chars (embarrassing s class shinobi, pushing a Rinnegan user, praised by his enemies,) Nobody really wants to fight this dude for a good reason.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He is either the highest mid kage or lowest high kage.
> As shown by interactions with the other chars (embarrassing s class shinobi, pushing a Rinnegan user, praised by his enemies,) Nobody really wants to fight this dude for a good reason.


I would say since there is a notable difference in strengh between Pain Arc SM Naruto (who surpassed Jiraya) and KCM Naruto, then Jiraya is most likely a High-Mid Kage level fighter.


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## Duhul10 (Jun 11, 2017)

He is bottom high kage level alongside guys like Itachi, Muu, War arc SM Naruto and the likes. Not to mention that his hype and portrayal already put him there.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> I would said since there is a notable difference in strengh between Pain Arc SM Naruto (who surpassed Jiraya) and KCM Naruto, then Jiraya is most likely a High-Mid Kage level fighter.


KCM Naruto is pretty comfortably High kage, but then again I think Mu is on the lower end of high Kage.
I've never really tried to place Pain arc SM Naruto but I think he is >=Jiraiya so I don't disagree.


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## LostSelf (Jun 11, 2017)

I consider the Sannin as top - mid kage considering i have Itachi/Minato as high Kage, with Nagato being the upper tier and door to crazy tier in BM Naruto-Hashirama, etc.


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## Android (Jun 11, 2017)

With Sage Mode and the 2 sennin toads he's a solid high Kage level regardless of whether or not people are willing to believe that he is.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 11, 2017)

Bottom Section of High Kage / Top Section of Mid Kage.
His rank/spot is more likely looks like belong that mixed section.
And even w/o SM he is still a High-Mid Kage

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Bottom Section of High Kage / Top Section of Mid Kage.
> His rank/spot is more likely looks like belong that mixed section.
> And even w/o SM he is still a High-Mid Kage


This is impossible SM means you're gaining at least one tier of overall power.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> This is impossible SM means you're gaining at least one tier of overall power.


Some tier are so full with characters. . So moving in the tier is fine enough.. And again.. ı already said "bottom section of high kage and top section of mid kage" So he is already a bridge between thanks to SM ..

But even w/o.. He is still High-Mid Kage imo. 3 Giant Boss Summons, 2 main and 2 featless elements + oils, hairs (fine enough to crush a giant boss summon with thick shelter), Turning Frog, Gamadaira, Gamaguchishibari, Tourd Guard Prison, Fire Seal, Chakra Suprassing Seal, Great Strentgh, Decent Speed and Physicality. Marvelous stamina and chakra control.

Experience.. The Most amount of complete official mission .. And best at S and A mission with huge gaps !

3 time Hokage Candidate. Intimidate Akatsuki level shinobies w/o sm with one jutsu ? Dealing with Kn4 w/o any offensive act that could harm him ?!

Best score in DB in base

So "impossible" ? This is about opinion there aint a thing that can be call as "possible" or "impossible" dont be that dramatic.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Some tier are so full with characters. . So moving in the tier is fine enough.. And again.. ı already said "bottom section of high kage and top section of mid kage" So he is already a bridge between thanks to SM ..
> 
> But even w/o.. He is still High-Mid Kage imo. 3 Giant Boss Summons, 2 main and 2 featless elements + oils, hairs (fine enough to crush a giant boss summon with thick shelter), Turning Frog, Gamadaira, Gamaguchishibari, Tourd Guard Prison, Fire Seal, Chakra Suprassing Seal, Great Strentgh, Decent Speed and Physicality. Marvelous stamina and chakra control.
> 
> ...


By one tier I mean an entire tier, if he was low-Mid Kage then he become low-Hgh Kage, something like that, and one tier is the bare minimum for such an insane booster.
Furthermore, we now according to DB that SM Jiraya is dramatically superior to his base version. His jutsu such as Katon Endan become more than ten times stronger, same goes for Rasengan. Wich means, SM Jiraya can obivously beat many ninjas as strong as his base self. This alone make his base self at most a low-mid Kage level while being insanly generous.
Then if we add his inferiority towards MS Sasuke and Pain Arc Naruto, who are not even low Kage level (KCM Naruto isobviously in the tier above and he is not above High Kage level, same goes for Kabuto-fight EMS Sasuke), then it's obvious Base Jiraya's level was retconned since P1.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Then if we add his inferiority towards MS Sasuke and Pain Arc Naruto, who are not even low Kage level


No, Jiraiya is not inferior to either of these guys

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

I think there might be more than three tiers  across the Kage level spectrum.

But if we define high, mid and low Kage as each being 1/3rd of the known Kage with each tier, I think Jiraiya would be high Kage.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Friendly 1 | Useful 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No, Jiraiya is not inferior to either of these guys


It was implied in Pain Arc, Naruto already surpassed him which means MS Sasuke (Danzo-fight) also surpassed him since he is Naruto's equal at that point of the manga.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 11, 2017)

Something like this will be an ongoing debate as each person kind of has there own ranking break down and sub levels..

Example:
Some people use rankings such as God level, high kage etc
Some people use ranking such as God level, demi-god, high kage etc
and so on

God level:
The Ōtsutsuki
Naruto
Sasuke
Juubi jins
etc

Next level:
Madara
Hashirama
Kabuto
Nagato


High Kage:
Itachi
Minato
Tobirama
Obito(depending on which version he could go to the tier above)
etc
etc

IMO there should be a tier rank between the god levels and High Kage  as including Madara/Hashirama in the High Kage class creates an enormous power gap in a single tier. If anything I consider Jiraiya at the bottom of the High Kage class

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Karyu Endan (Jun 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No, Jiraiya is not inferior to either of these guys



Jiraiya managed to beat three Pain paths before getting taken down.

Naruto got to five.

_Without_ Kurama.

Jiraiya is _absolutely_ inferior to Pain arc Naruto.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> It was implied in Pain Arc, Naruto already surpassed him which means MS Sasuke (Danzo-fight) also surpassed him since he is Naruto's equal at that point of the manga.


Wrong. It was implied that Naruto surpassed him in terms of SM. SM only boosts stats you already have, and given the fact that Base Jiraiya>>>>>>>>>>Base Naruto, SM Jiraiya would still be stronger, it also doesn't hurt that Jiraiya's SM was retconned as the Db4 said he had ghost punches and sensing, coupled with the fact that his SM is indefinite.




Karyu Endan said:


> Jiraiya managed to beat three Pain paths before getting taken down.
> 
> Naruto got to five.
> 
> ...


Horrible analogy.

Are you really gonna be that dishonest to say that the scenarios Naruto and Jiraiya were interchangeable in anyway? Come on now.

Also he was only on the losing side because of something he wasn't even aware of, Pein even stated that had Jiraiya had knowledge on him he would have won.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 11, 2017)

Jiraiya also went into the fight blind with no intel on the abilities of each individual path. Something naruto had the pleasure of gathering from katsuyu. Plus Deva path was on cooldown for the majority of the fight

Granted you could argue Pain did not go all out against Jiraiya for various reasons.


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## Charmed (Jun 11, 2017)

He's Mid Kage to me with his SM n.n/
The strongest Sannin.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wrong. It was implied that Naruto surpassed him in terms of SM, SM only boosts stats you already have, and given the fact that Base Jiraiya>>>>>>>>>>Base Naruto, SM Jiraiya would still be stronger, it also doesn't hurt that Jiraiya's SM was retconned coupled as the Db4 said he had ghost punches and sensing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The main reason behind his training is so that he could surpass Jiraya "as a whole" as stated by Tsunade. Moreoever, it would be ridiculous, if he (and Fukasaku, Shima, etc) think he has a chance against the ennemy who killed his master *in Sage Mode (*without even figuring out all of his abilities) if he was inferior to Jiraya.
And no since Base Jiraya's level was rectonned in P2, he is not dramatically superior to Base Naruto. Remember his Immortal Arc version was already superior (or at least equal) to Kakashi, he beat Kakuzu (both of them diminished), which means the superiority of his SM is more than enough to replace the little difference between him and Base Jiraya.


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## Charmed (Jun 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Are you really gonna be that dishonest to say that the scenarios Naruto and Jiraiya were interchangeable in anyway?


I agree n.n



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Also he was only on the losing side because of something he wasn't even aware of, Pein even stated that had Jiraiya had knowledge on him he would have won.


I don't agree here though :'v

But I'm very sure that Jiraiya > SM Naruto.
I mean, Naruto lost to Pain too before Kyubi came out :'v
And Naruto had so many advantages, he had mini Katsuyu telling him each path's weakness.
Naruto was fighting the Paths 1 by 1, not to mention the paths were weakened a lot after Deva used that Super Shinrai Tensei.
Also, iirc it was Shima that summoned all the toad army, not Naruto, I've only seen Jiraiya and Naruto only capable of summoning 1 toad at a time.
And him, being the Main character, gets to have Plot Armor, while Jiraiya doesn't.

Jiraiya did fight against 3 Paths at the same time, and this paths were not handicaped, he didn't have knowledge on any of the paths, he had to figure this out by himself, something I highly doubt Naruto would be capable of, couse he doesn't have Jiraiya's battle experience.

The only thing that Naruto has better than Jiraiya is his SM, but that doesn0t make him any better than Jiraiya, like, at all.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> The main reason behind his training is so that he could surpass Jiraya "as a whole" as stated by Tsunade.


No if you actually look at the connected context, you'd see that Kishi was referring specifically to SM. It was later stated by Ma that Naruto had surpassed those before him, including Minato know we know that isn't true as Minato was clearly potrayed to be the superior shinobi in almost all aspects except...Sage Mode. Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya in SM only, that's the context if you think Kishi was potraying Naruto to surpass Jiraiya as whole then he surpasses Minato as a whole as well - which we all know isn't true, stop nitpicking.

And yes Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in terms of Senjutsu, but Jiraiya's SM is still strong as well as its not only indefinite with Ma, Pa and Jiraiya working as a trinity, but it was later retconned to be stronger as it was stated he was able to sense and utilize ghost punches closing the gap between Naruto's SM and Jiraiya's even furthur.



hbcaptain said:


> oreoever, it would be ridiculous, if he stand a chance against the ennemy who killed his master *in Sage Mode (*without even figuring out all of his abilities) if he was inferior to Jiraya.


The funny thing that people miss, is that Pein himself stated that Jiraiya would beat him had he had knowledge, while Naruto only managed to snag 5 against a Pein that not only had _zero_ killing intent, and had sufficent enough knowledge on him



hbcaptain said:


> Remember his Immortal Arc version was already superior (or at least equal) to Kakashi,


Alright and by Kakashi's own admission , the Sannin and *Jiraiya* are on completely different level than him, while Kakashi said Naruto just surpassed him so I'm not seeing your point.



hbcaptain said:


> which means the superiority of his SM is more than enough to replace the little difference between him and Base Jiraya.


There is no little difference between Base Naruto and Base Jiraiya lol, the Databook has him superior in almost *every* feasible aspect.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No if you actually look at the connected context, you'd see that Kishi was referring specifically to SM. It was later stated by Ma that Naruto had surpassed those before him, including Minato know we know that isn't true as Minato was clearly potrayed to be the superior shinobi in almost all aspects except...Sage Mode. Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya in SM only, that's the context if you think Kishi was potraying Naruto to surpass Jiraiya as whole then he surpasses Minato as a whole as well - which we all know isn't true, stop nitpicking.


In Minato's case, the author turned away this passage comparing him respectively to both  KCM Naruto and BM Naruto meanwhile Jiraya was only compared to Pain Arc Naruto which means Naruto already surpassed hmim at this point of the manga.



> The funny thing that people miss, is that Pein himself stated that Jiraiya would beat him had he had knowledge, while Naruto only managed to snag 5 against a Pein that not only had _zero_ killing intent, and had sufficent enough knowledge on him


There is some great confusion about this passage, the thing isn't only about Full knowledge but Pain's secret as a whole and Pain's secret is "Nagato is controling the avatars behind shadows", which means even Naruto foutgh Pain ithout knowing his secret until the end of the battle.
Second, Pain stated "maybe" Jiraya can beat him with his secret known.
And Pain secret being known means, he simply take a chakra rod, he locates him and then he kills him before other avatars can save their masters.

Third, Fukasaku, SHima, Tsnade, etc are specialists, they know how strong is Jiraya and I highly doubt their jugement is ridiculous. Especially Pa&Ma wh fought with Jiraya the whole time.



> Alright and by Kakashi's own admission , the Sannin are on completely different level than him, while Kakashi said Naruto just surpassed him so I'm not seeing your point.


And Senjutsu is part of Jiraya's power.
If you mean Base Jiraya >>> Kakashi, then SM Jiraya can easily take against 5/6 Kakashi which is ridicuolous. Jiraya is nowhere near low Gokage level.



> There is no little difference between Base Naruto and Base Jiraiya lol, the Databook has him superior in almost *every* feasible aspect.


Databook stats doesn't mean shit, Kabuto has 33.5 and other Akatsuki members has 32.5/32 and we all know they stomps him hard.


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2017)

Karyu Endan said:


> Jiraiya managed to beat three Pain paths before getting taken down.
> 
> Naruto got to five.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya took down three paths then he went up against all six and managed to beat animal path again so if we're going by total, Jiraiya with little knowledge managed to take down four paths. Naruto had knowledge on multiple paths abilities(unlike Jiraiya), had fought the paths after they spent time fighting a village(Jiraiya fought them fresh), fought them when they were recovering more slowly(again Jiraiya fought them fresh), Naruto started off in Sage Mode(unlike Jiraiya who had to work to get it), started off with having three boss summonings out already along with having Ma+Pa out(Jiraiya had to work to summon them), and Naruto had prep by having two clones stay behind to gather Natural energy(Jiraiya didn't have prep). In no way can you look at both their fights and see who's the stronger of the two when Naruto had multiple advantages as opposed to Jiraiya and even then Naruto only took out one extra path.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## hbcaptain (Jun 11, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Jiraiya took down three paths then he went up against all six and managed to beat animal path again so if we're going by total, Jiraiya with little knowledge managed to take down four paths. Naruto had knowledge on multiple paths abilities(unlike Jiraiya), had fought the paths after they spent time fighting a village(Jiraiya fought them fresh), fought them when they were recovering more slowly(again Jiraiya fought them fresh), Naruto started off in Sage Mode(unlike Jiraiya who had to work to get it), started off with having three boss summonings out already along with having Ma+Pa out(Jiraiya had to work to summon them), and Naruto had prep by having two clones stay behind to gather Natural energy(Jiraiya didn't have prep). In no way can you look at both their fights and see who's the stronger of the two when Naruto had multiple advantages as opposed to Jiraiya and even then Naruto only took out one extra path.


-Naruto defeated Gikdou two times which make a total of 6.
-He defeated two avatars, Shurado and Ningendo without knowledge, something impossible for SM Jiraya which means he can perform notably better in a limited amount of time (his eak point). 
-He could've defeated even Deva if he didn't recover his power, _Pain wasn't forced to use Deva path's power against Jiraya_, which makes a total of 7.


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> -Naruto defeated Gikdou two times which make a total of 6.



K.



> -He defeated two avatars, Shurado and Ningendo without knowledge, something impossible for SM Jiraya which means he can perform notably better in a limited amount of time (his eak point).



It's not impossible for Sage Mode Jiraiya to beat those two paths so you don't have any ground to stand on



> -He could've defeated even Deva if he didn't recover his power, _Pain wasn't forced to use Deva path's power against Jiraya_, which makes a total of 7.



It doesn't matter if Naruto could've taken him out, he didn't thus that's only six but hey If we wanna be "that guy" and talk about what "could've happened", Jiraiya could've defeated Pain in that fight if he had knowledge. Naruto could only do so good against a weaken Pain when he had multiple advantages. So I guess that would be a total of 10 paths that Jiraiya would beat compared to Naruto's seven. Where is it stated that Deva didn't use any of his powers against Jiraiya?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 11, 2017)

Jman is a top level Mid Kage, anyone id place in high kage would take Jman in a majority imo

*High Kages*


Pain-...Feel like i aint got to explain why Pain is above Jman in basically every respect...
Minato-Acknowledged by Jman himself to be on another level and placed him on some unassailable pedestal many times
Tobirama- Effectively a minato clone with inferior FTG and shunshin
MS sasuke-Acknowledged to be literally dead even (emphasis on dead) with SM naruto who is superior to SM Jman according to the dude who taught both Naruto and Jman
Muu/Ohnoki- This is mainly just me i guess, id see either of these 2 taking a solid majority over the likes of Jman 
SM Naruto-Who is acknowledged to be Jmans superior 
Itachi- Effectively an MS sasuke clone with an inferior gas tank
*Mid Kages*
Jman
1 MS Kakashi
AAA
AAAA
Kisame


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> And Senjutsu is part of Jiraya's power.
> If you mean Base Jiraya >>> Kakashi, then SM Jiraya can easily take against 5/6 Kakashi which is ridicuolous.


You keep repeating this dumb point, and I keep refuting it. Whether Kakashi knows Jiraiya has SM or not doesn't mean jack shit, if he's never seen it utilized in a battle situation or hell if he's seen him utilize  it all...OK?  Is that better?



hbcaptain said:


> Jiraya


Here you go making yourself and your claim looks ridiculous again, while also contradicting yourself as well,  you do understand that Tsunade is member of the Gokage rightand wasn't it you who said that the Sannin are equal but now Jiraiya apparently isn't even low Gokage level?



hbcaptain said:


> In Minato's case, the author turned away this passage comparing him respectively to both KCM Naruto and BM Naruto meanwhile Jiraya was only compared to Pain Arc Naruto which means Naruto already surpassed hmim at this point of the manga.


The author was comparing Naruto's speed to Minato's




hbcaptain said:


> There is some great confusion about this passage, the thing isn't only about Full knowledge but Pain's secret as a whole and Pain's secret is "Nagato is controling the avatars behind shadows", which means even Naruto foutgh Pain ithout knowing his secret until the end of the battle.


Pein specifically says to Jiraiya that "we" would have lost which makes it appear as though he is alluding to the Paths specifically. Besides this is totally in view of your own elucidation of what Nagato implied and how Jiraiya would have put the Knowledge of Pain's mystery to utilize.

Besides regardless of the possibility that that was the situation, Jiraiya would at present need to invest his energy exploring the passages of AME while being chased around the 6 Paths attempting to frantically discover Nagato; And then he would need to get past the 6 Paths and Konan and in addition Nagato's own particular forces to have the capacity to defeat Nagato along these lines; If anything that sounds more troublesome at that point crushing the 6 Paths.

it truly doesn't make a difference how he would overcome Nagato; The main premise is he would have won with the same intel Naruto had against a full power Pain, while Naruto lost against a debilitated Pain.



hbcaptain said:


> Third, Fukasaku, SHima, Tsnade, etc are specialists, they know how strong is Jiraya and I highly doubt their jugement is ridiculous. Especially Pa&Ma wh fought with Jiraya the whole time.


What are you even talking about? Lol, I already told you the context was referring to Senjutsu specifically, the only reason they put more weight on Jiraiya in this sense is because SM is pretty much his strongest technique, so surpassing his in that regard holds more weight as opposed to Minato who himself even stated that his SM was terrible. Same can be said about Naruto surpassing minato in speed, it holds weight because Minato's strongest technqiue is speed and the main comparisons being drawn out was through SPEED.





hbcaptain said:


> In Minato's case, the author turned away this passage comparing him respectively to both KCM Naruto and BM Naruto meanwhile Jiraya was only compared to Pain Arc Naruto which means Naruto already surpassed hmim at this point of the manga.



There have been multiple times in the manga where x character was stated to surpass y when we sure as a hell know it isn't true, or is simply misinterpreted by a fan of the series. It also doesn't hurt that Ma's statement was exteremly vague.

Though if we look at the hard cold facts

- Jiraiya has more experience
- Jiraya's far more versatile in almost very single aspect l
- Jiraiya's SM may be inferior, but its indefinite allowing him to stay in it longer



If you wanna say that the ma and Tsunade statement has Naruto surpassing Jiraiya then be it, but when we have a direct comparison of there performances against Pein and Jiraiya was clearly shown to be the superior fighter of the two with less advantages, you gotta use common sense and see the blatant potrayal Kishimoto is putting out for us.


Also you say Base Naruto isn't that inferior to base Jiraiya, I'd love to see what base Naruto would have done against pein starting base without any knowledge like Jiraiya, hell he probably wouldn't make it past animal path as he can't even locate Chameleon in the first place, while having no way to put the dogs downplease be honest Base Jiraiya is superior to base Naruto by a sufficent ass distance, point and case


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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2017)

All of the Sannin are High Kage.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hi no Ishi (Jun 11, 2017)

How could a dude who one shotted two Akatsuki and had a solid mid kage in Kakashi singing his praises in disbelief, be fricking low kage?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 11, 2017)

Karyu Endan said:


> Naruto got to five.


With knowledge
With days of prep (3 clone thing and scrolls) He figured out how he is gonna fight
Katsuyu also helped
3 Boss Summon
Deva Path used too much chakra.. And he was at resting when Naruto charges on'em.
And homefield advantage ? 

He get Asura when he dive on Tsunade.. Which is that cant be count.. Cuz Jiriaya hasnt any partner or companion ?! 

.... And until Naruto saved the Konoha, he aint has any portrayal over the world ?! So Nagato a bit underestimated him.. Which isnt likely suits with Jiraiya's case !!



So end of the day ;

Naruto with prep, with homefield advantage, with distraction source for enemy like Tsunade or Hinata, with 3 boss summon, deva depowered, Asura handled when he was distracted, katsuyu constantly warn him.. Thanks to Katsuyu she helped when he even forgot what Fukasaku told about Pain to him. and Preta revived again. And then he can only able to beat him with his luck cuz Preta grab him in stable position. ?!

And again Naruto had kawazu kumite. Which is his each hit was a near kill attempt ?.. And Thanks to Frogs they didnt able to use their shared vision properly !

So even all with those advantages ... He can able to only 3 of'em with his own plans & attempts and other 2 is happened cuz of the moment let him to do.

On the other hand

Dude fighting against his beloved former pupils. And people always willing to forget but Jiriaya not just fight against Pain.. He also beated Konan in a sec !.. Who is a mid-level akatsuki member ?

And she is far more better than any path except Deva. 

Jiraiya had a emotional struggle and also try to solve a case. 

So he had 3 type of battle

Emotionally 
Mentally
Physicaliy

And he had the disadvantage cuz he had any knowledge.. No one on the world didnt have any knowledge about rinnegan.. All villages has common knowledge and cautions about Byakugan and Sharingan.. But none for Rinnegan ? So try to imagine Jiraiya's position.

This is like Naruto go to fight against Kaguya w/o any support from Team 7 just him.. and he never took the information about her from Rikudo Sennin. He just go to check control somethings and he running to Kaguya ?!? 

And bonus for that example.. Lets try to think, once Kaguya was  Naruto's beloved adoptive mother and now his enemy. ? 

So did you dudes now can understand how hard his position. 

He still take out konan beat 4 path.. And he beat one of em when he aint able to ninjutsu rip him off from each 6 path in a close battle ? He even stood his position against them a little while w/o arm..

He send bodies to village, send key of the seal, and dying message.. He both fight and also cover his village. 

So nope ? Pain Arc Naruto not superior than Jiraiya and ıf he is beating 5 path is not the reason kiddo.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Jad (Jun 11, 2017)

Jiraiya vs. Pains of Path with one arm, probably did a ton of hiding, and little fighting. Probably every time he propped his head up he got nailed for it.

He literally had to escape and setup traps in SM to take down the three weaker paths. To say he did better with one arm and no SM in a full confrontation is weird. It was off panel, so how they were engaging is nobodies idea. But possibly the scenario played out like Jiraiya hid most of the time with an injury and Pa summon verse 6 paths, one not using summons and Deva just talking, having finally managed to lure one of them in a trap.

Anyways, Jiraiya with SM is mid-kage.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

Jad said:


> Jiraiya vs. Pains of Path with one arm, probably did a ton of hiding, and little fighting. Probably every time he propped his head up he got nailed for it.
> 
> He literally had to escape and setup traps in SM to take down the three weaker paths. To say he did better with one arm and no SM in a full confrontation is weird. It was off panel, so how they were engaging is nobodies idea.



Jiraiya stated that he attempted to _drag_ each of the Pains into Gama Hyoro. Sure, Jman  merely managed to grab one of them, but it strongly implies that there wasn't much running away and hiding involved.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2017)

Jad said:


> Jiraiya vs. Pains of Path with one arm, probably did a ton of hiding, and little fighting. Probably every time he propped his head up he got nailed for it.
> 
> He literally had to escape and setup traps in SM to take down the three weaker paths. To say he did better with one arm and no SM in a full confrontation is weird. It was off panel, so how they were engaging is nobodies idea. But possibly the scenario played out like Jiraiya hid most of the time with an injury and Pa summon verse 6 paths, one not using summons and Deva just talking, having finally managed to lure one of them in a trap.
> 
> Anyways, Jiraiya with SM is mid-kage.



I agree with this. Never agreed with the notion that one arm Sage Jirayia is some god that can truly stall Pain. Homie was walled by 3 paths( one of which is the weakest) and needed to formulate a plan and exercise guerrilla warefare to overwhelm them. Logically the six paths would have stomped the man and clearly Pain was taking it easy as Deva's abilities were never deciphered.  I would argue that Deva and Preta alone would have moly whopped Jirayia at that point let alone all 6. Pretty sure Jirayia ran and baited one or two and Pain didn't really care cause Jirayia was fucked. Now this doesn't mean that Jirayia isn't the shit. Homie is the juice, he just isn't Pain level by any means.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

Naraka is the weakest Pain.

Human Pain is the most dangerous Taijutsu Pain, Preta is the best or second best defensive Pain, and Animal Pain could cover whatever attacks Preta wasn't able to absorb.

Nagato used the Pains best suited to combating what he knew of Jiraiya's fighting style. Fighting with a plan is still fighting, too.


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Naraka is the weakest Pain.
> 
> Human Pain is the most dangerous Taijutsu Pain, Preta is the best or second best defensive Pain, and Animal Pain could cover whatever attacks Preta wasn't able to absorb.
> 
> Nagato used the Pains best suited to combating what he knew of Jiraiya's fighting style. Fighting with a plan is still fighting, too.



What exactly has Human path actually done in cqc that makes it deadly? It has the ability to pull souls but it usually needs an opening to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Konohamaru get the jump of said Path in cqc? 

Uhhh Asura, Preta and Deva would be demolished Jirayia. I do not think the paths used were the most effective. Human path contributed literally nothing in that battle.

It is fighting but One Arm Sage Jirayia did not have the strength or the locational advantage to pull off guerilla tactics as effectively when all 6 paths had him. If Pain was serious a BT combo from the start would be 100% viable.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> What exactly has Human path actually done in cqc that makes it deadly? It has the ability to pull souls but it usually needs an opening to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Konohamaru get the jump of said Path in cqc?



In most cases that Pain doesn't need an opening more than any of the other Pains need an opening to stab another ninja with a Chakra Rod (or saw which is an option with Asura, and it wasn't the only Pain on the field when Jman was fighting. The point is being caught by Human Pain is more dangerous than being caught by any of the other Pains, which makes it the best Taijutsu Pain.

Konohamaru got the jump on _Naraka_.



> Uhhh Asura, Preta and Deva would be demolished Jirayia. I do not think the paths used were the most effective. Human path contributed literally nothing in that battle.



Asura tears apart easier than the other Pains because it is made of multiple pieces. Compare what happened to the other Pains that were hit with Rasengan to what happened to Asura. Asura was torn up. If Jiraiya counter-blitzed it instead of Human it might have done worse to Asura. The projectiles can be outrun by a Sage Mode Jiraiya.

Asura and Deva also can't block continuous fire like Animal can by summoning. Deva, for example, would be able to deflect the front of Kebari Senbon but not the whole barrage because the Shinra Tensei wave only lasts for an instant.

It contributed nothing because Jiraiya was better in close quarters, which applies to any of the Pains.



> It is fighting but One Arm Sage Jirayia did not have the strength or the locational advantage to pull off guerilla tactics as effectively when all 6 paths had him.



Yeah, so he wouldn't have actually beaten all six. It doesn't mean that Jiraiya would have been finished off immediately.

As for the Bansho Ten'in combo, Jiraiya unlike Naruto has fast and handsign-less Jutsu that could be shot between himself and Deva before Jiraiya ever got hit, interrupting the Jutsu if not hitting whichever Pains were involved with that combo.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 11, 2017)

Guys think about this...where is Jiraiya gonna run to with one arm, and ? The only place he can go is underwater, but he wouldn't have got stabbed in the chest by a chakra rod, nor would he be able to catch a path nonetheless all the paths which was his original intentions now would heck

Now let's compare Jiraiya's clothes to before he "fought the paths"

To after

His clothes and face are/is clearly dirty and he looked completely and utterly exhausted indicating that he was actually engaging with something, his clothes wouldn't get dirty from just running that's fricken ridiculous.

We then have Kakashi (Kishi) imply that Jiraiya fought all 6 of the paths at once, and since we know he didn't do that on panel,  he likely did it during that off panel fight, I find it weird that Kishi would just put the statement in his manga for no reason it likely did happen.

Anyways just because you don't like the feat doesn't make it bad, sorry it's the same as Pein saying Jiraiya would have beat him if he had his secret, Pein's opinion after fighting jiraiya(which is also the authors opinion as well)>>>>>yours I'm sorry that's just the way it is.

But anyways if you guys wanna say Jiraiya just ran, he must have one of the fastest shunshins in the verse , so if he did "run" he must be pretty fucking fast to do something like that against 6 paths jumping right at him attacking from multiple corners while having only one arm and no where to run




Jad said:


> Jiraiya vs. Pains of Path with one arm, probably did a ton of hiding, and little fighting. Probably every time he propped his head up he got nailed for it.
> 
> He literally had to escape and setup traps in SM to take down the three weaker paths. To say he did better with one arm and *no SM* in a full confrontation is weird. It was off panel, so how they were engaging is nobodies idea. But possibly the scenario played out like Jiraiya hid most of the time with an injury and Pa summon verse 6 paths, one not using summons and Deva just talking, having finally managed to lure one of them in a trap.
> 
> Anyways, Jiraiya with SM is mid-kage.


He still had SM on at that point, his SM left here


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 11, 2017)

My opinions on what I consider to be mid Kage and high Kage level have changed. So whilst I may have considered him mid kage before, I now consider him to be high Kage level. High Kage level are characters like prime Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, the Sannin, Itachi, SM Kabuto, Danzo, and Onoki in my book.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> In most cases that Pain doesn't need an opening more than any of the other Pains need an opening to stab another ninja with a Chakra Rod (or saw which is an option with Asura, and it wasn't the only Pain on the field when Jman was fighting. The point is being caught by Human Pain is more dangerous than being caught by any of the other Pains, which makes it the best Taijutsu Pain.
> 
> Konohamaru got the jump on _Naraka_.
> 
> ...



What exactly has Human Path displayed in cqc that supports the notion that he doesn't need a greater opening to pull of attacks. Human path, in theory, is pretty dope in CQC but it lacks the skill or feats to make it great in CQC. Looking at the way Jirayia battled the Paths, Human contributed a lot less than Deva or Asura would have by a landslide.

Okay lol I wasn't sure it was human or Naraka as combat wise they both aren't that impressive.

That's assuming you replace Human path with Asura and not Deva for instance. That's also assuming the long-range fighter like Asura is going to attempt CQC with a Sage User instead using um long range attacks.

The projectiles _themselves_ can be outrun by Sage Jirayia but that's assuming that's the only technique being used. Jirayia with zero knowledge in that situation would have definitely tasted the bad-side of a Shinra Tensei or could have been pulled into offensive attacks by BT. I doubt Asura on its lonesome is being used to attack here, they aren't trying to capture Jirayia like Naruto.

Why can't Asura block Jirayia's projectiles with his own? And why would Jirayia as a single target using a projectile stop Deva and Asura from using attacks simultaneously? Asura blocks Jirayia's attacks and Deva pulls Jirayia in? Or the man gets smart and pulls a toad right off Jirayia's shoulder and ends all this nonsense from the start? 

No, Jirayia would have been beaten easily though.


That's assuming only Deva is attacking Jirayia. With knowlege of Jirayia's abilities I don't see why Asura or Animal Path couldn't have been used to deflect attacks from Jirayia while Deva pulls him towards his fate.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 11, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi- Effectively an MS sasuke clone with an inferior gas tank





Still spouting BS as per usual.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> What exactly has Human Path displayed in cqc that supports the notion that he doesn't need a greater opening to pull of attacks. Human path, in theory, is pretty dope in CQC but it lacks the skill or feats to make it great in CQC. Looking at the way Jirayia battled the Paths, Human contributed a lot less than Deva or Asura would have by a landslide.



Don't try to hide behind "it lacks the skill or feats". Every single Pain is piloted by the same person, so their skill level would be the same.



> That's assuming you replace Human path with Asura and not Deva for instance.



?

If Deva were in the middle of attacking while not privy to Jman's speed increase he may not activate Shinra Tensei before being kicked away.



> That's also assuming the long-range fighter like Asura is going to attempt CQC with a Sage User instead using um long range attacks.



Like it did against Kakashi and Tsunade, am I right?



> The projectiles _themselves_ can be outrun by Sage Jirayia but that's assuming that's the only technique being used. Jirayia with zero knowledge in that situation would have definitely tasted the bad-side of a Shinra Tensei or could have been pulled into offensive attacks by BT.



Shinra Tensei in Amegakure with each of the other Pains on the field would be tanked with Sage Mode durability. Bansho Ten'in is more likely to damage one of the Pains than it is Jiraiya, for reasons mentioned between these posts.



> Why can't Asura block Jirayia's projectiles with his own?



It would get in the way of Bansho Ten'in if it did, which would cancel Bansho Ten'in out, so who cares if it does?



> And why would Jirayia as a single target using a projectile stop Deva and Asura from using attacks simultaneously?



If Deva uses Bansho Ten'in and Jiraiya shoots something at it, Deva will have to abandon the Jutsu or get hit (Kebari Senbon might hit it anyway given the range). If Asura were to jump in the way then it would get in the way of the pull, which would release Jman.



> Or the man gets smart and pulls a toad right off Jirayia's shoulder and ends all this nonsense from the start?



The toads merge into Jiraiya's body with Ryosei no Jutsu. Deva couldn't select a toad to pull off any more than it could rip off particular limbs.



> No, Jirayia would have been beaten easily though.



Apparently not if it took a good while, according to Zetsu.

.........What do you define as easy?



> That's assuming only Deva is attacking Jirayia. With knowlege of Jirayia's abilities I don't see why Asura or Animal Path couldn't have been used to deflect attacks from Jirayia while Deva pulls him towards his fate.



Answered earlier in the post.


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Don't try to hide behind "it lacks the skill or feats". Every single Pain is piloted by the same person, so their skill level would be the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay so instead I'll say it doesn't have the speed or feats to assume it's a better choice to go with in comparison to Deva or Asura. Human Path was straight useless against Sage Jirayia, not because he's just that great but because Human path isn't all that helpful in a battle to begin with; unless the opponent's movement is restricted.

Assuming Asura runs in instead of Deva to bet this eyes kicked in by Jirayia.

But Deva would know how fast Jirayia is assuming he isn't the one that rushes in first and gets kicked. And even if he does all he gets is blinded. Which doesn't impede his abilities much.

I'm pretty sure Asura was intercepting an attack against Kakashi and against Tsunade it was clear her ability was squashed after shielding the village.

Yes but it would not only surprise Jirayia but rargdoll him leaving him open for attacks from any other path. Not to mention either of the Elder Sages falling off of Jirayia's shoulder. 

I don't see a single reason why BT would be threatening to the other paths when multiple of them ways of protecting themselves as well as Deva Path. And this is assuming an Elder Sage isn't simply pulled off of Jirayia's shoulder and killed.

Asura and summoning Path both have techniques that can be used to intercept projectiles from Jirayia in mid-air. And Deva Path himself can take the attack if it means Jirayia gets nuked to hell and back by the supporting path watching his helpless body get pulled in. The Pull has also shown to be relatively quick( at times) catching Naruto 100% off guard.

That's interesting. I never realized that the roads were connected to Jirayia. I don't think it changes much though.


Considering Jirayia never witnessed Deva's abilities I'd say the paths weren't giving it there all.


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## Monty Burns (Jun 11, 2017)

High Kage level easily. There should be no comparisons between Pain arc Naruto and Jiraiya, Jiraiya was clearly superior in pretty much everything. Even his imperfect Sage Mode is just as dangerous as a perfect Sage Mode since he's capable of turning his limbs into that of a toads to increase his dexterity marginally. He's a myriad of large scale ninjutsu, dangerous long range jutsu, barriers and so on. Hell even in base he can give most shinobi a run for their money.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Okay so instead I'll say it doesn't have the speed or feats to assume it's a better choice to go with in comparison to Deva or Asura. Human Path was straight useless against Sage Jirayia, not because he's just that great but because Human path isn't all that helpful in a battle to begin with; unless the opponent's movement is restricted.



Deva's feats are being cornered by Kakashi, held off by base Naruto and getting kicked around by Sage Naruto without ever touching the guy. What about that makes Deva a stronger Taijutsu path than Human feat wise?

Asura is more breakable than Human Pain against someone who can send boss sized summons sailing through the air and its ability ignores resiliency (which Jiraiya showed a lot of even in base).

Human Pain would be preferable to both, I think.



> Assuming Asura runs in instead of Deva to bet this eyes kicked in by Jirayia.
> 
> But Deva would know how fast Jirayia is assuming he isn't the one that rushes in first and gets kicked. And even if he does all he gets is blinded. Which doesn't impede his abilities much.



So one of them is going to get the Human Pain treatment either way.



> I'm pretty sure Asura was intercepting an attack against Kakashi and against Tsunade it was clear her ability was squashed after shielding the village.



Asura appeared after Deva dispersed Raiju Hashiri no Jutsu. Either way, Nagato chose to have it cross a rather significant distance instead of simply launching a projectile attack and keeping the Pains close together. He did the same with Preta.



> Yes but it would not only surprise Jirayia but rargdoll him leaving him open for attacks from any other path. Not to mention either of the Elder Sages falling off of Jirayia's shoulder.
> 
> I don't see a single reason why BT would be threatening to the other paths when multiple of them ways of protecting themselves as well as Deva Path.



Perhaps, perhaps not depending on how soon Jiraiya can recover from it.

What moves would defend both Deva and the other Pains _without_ blocking Jiraiya off from Bansho Ten'in in the process?



> Asura and summoning Path both have techniques that can be used to intercept projectiles from Jirayia in mid-air. And Deva Path himself can take the attack if it means Jirayia gets nuked to hell and back by the supporting path watching his helpless body get pulled in. The Pull has also shown to be relatively quick( at times) catching Naruto 100% off guard.



I've been trying to say that in intercepting said projectiles they would get in the way of Bansho Ten'in.

Naruto being caught off guard doesn't mean Jiraiya wouldn't be able to react, though. If Naruto reacted what exactly would he have done?



> That's interesting. I never realized that the roads were connected to Jirayia. I don't think it changes much though.



It would call into question how exactly Deva pulls either toad off of Jiraiya.



> Considering Jirayia never witnessed Deva's abilities I'd say the paths weren't giving it there all.



Jiraiya not witnessing the abilities of Deva Pain is based on Konoha not knowing about it, but then Konoha apparently didn't know about Preta either, so...we don't know if Jiraiya saw those abilities or not.


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## Gohara (Jun 12, 2017)

Jiraiya's character is around high Kage level in my opinion as his character is around the same level as the Paths version of Nagato's character.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Pain didn't really care cause Jirayia was fucked


 
Before one arm Jiraiya vs 6 Path start

What kind of "not caring" is this ?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 12, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Still spouting BS as per usual.


Whatever man


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## Serene Grace (Jun 12, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Before one arm Jiraiya vs 6 Path start
> 
> What kind of "not caring" is this ?


Wow I never realized this, the battle field was completely destroyed compared to the one hole that was left before the off pa new fight ,this basicall confires tgat Pein was not only trying to kill him but that Jiraiya did actually engage with him

You basically just ended the debate


Nice job flash I'll rep you when I can

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wow I never realized this, the battle field was completely destroyed compared to the one hole that was left before the off pa new fight ,this basicall confires tgat Pein was not only trying to kill him but that Jiraiya did actually engage with him
> 
> You basically just ended the debate
> 
> ...




Those looks like Asura's missiles. 

Pain's appearance is clean. Pointing that, even if Jiraiya engaged them, didn't do much to them. And considering Pain's shown appearing and Jiraiya looking back, looks like this was hide-and-seek instead of a direct confrontation.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Those looks like Asura's missiles.
> 
> Pain's appearance is clean. Pointing that, even if Jiraiya engaged them, didn't do much to them. And considering Pain's shown appearing and Jiraiya looking back, looks like this was hide-and-seek instead of a direct confrontation.


And yet he clearly engaged with them it's obvious that he did nothing much to argue against. Saying that he ran way is ridiculous since his clothes were clearly dirty coupled with the fact that there isn't any where for him to run in the first place

The point is that he was holding his own against the paths with 1 arm, whether he did anything to them is irrelevant

Before the off panel the paths were coming right at Jiraiya, where would he hide? Underwater? We know he didn't go underwater or stay there forever as his clothes and his face wouldn't be dirty, nor would he be able to catch all the paths in the barrier

Also how do you know that's not the same place?


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And yet he clearly engaged with them it's obvious that he did nothing much to argue against. Saying that he ran way is ridiculous since his clothes were clearly dirty coupled with the fact that there isn't any where for him to run in the first place
> 
> The point is that he was holding his own against the paths with 1 arm, whether he did anything to them is irrelevant
> 
> ...



Or Jiraiya was being hit trying to run, or he was overwhelmed trying to engage them. What is for certain is that Jiraiya did nothing to them, engaging them or not, the one that was all the time injured as shown in the image is Jiraiya. And considering with both arms and not injured he was having a difficult time against 3 in an area that allowed hiding, this version of Jiraiya sucessfully engaging the 6 paths being serious in a place without hiding is ilogical.

He can hide underwater, he has hidden underwater before and when he tried to get Asura path (?) he was hidden underwater. 

Running away can mean dodging, being forced to keep back without having the chance to strike back. Either way hwo this panels looks, it doesn't mean actually much.

The place looks a bit different in some parts but i erased that part because the location is actually irrelevant. Even though the images shows Pain landing and Jiraiya looking back. That's a clear indication of being pursued.

All i see in those panels was a Jiraiya trying to defend himself but being hit over and over again. He was trying to get the Paths one by one, but trying to do so, he was hit, countered and back to square one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2017)

People must keep forgetting that the initial three Pains never landed a finger on Jiraiya.

According to Jiraiya himself he went on the offensive at at least one point, so this "he was just running away" needs to go on somewhere.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> People must keep forgetting that the initial three Pains never landed a finger on Jiraiya.




Doesn't disregard the fact he had to go all-out against them and by his own admission, would have died if he kept going. 

It's ridiculous to say he was able to do better against six of them. It's actually already a stretch whether or not he can defeat the same three paths again with 1 arm, considering the fact that this time they've got knowledge. 


The surroundings being destroyed can easily be the consequence of a few missiles that Pain used and missed.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Doesn't disregard the fact he had to go all-out against them and by his own admission, would have died if he kept going.



He said that based on the pace at which the battle had already been going, which involved new abilities being revealed one after the other. Remember? He thought Nagato could perform way more Jutsu.

Once he made the gamble that they each only used one Jutsu he could hardly be said to have gone all out- he had them beat with a clone, two generic Katons and a small Doton.



> It's ridiculous to say he was able to do better against six of them.



Nobody said that, or else they would have simply said none of the Pains could touch Jiraiya.



> The surroundings being destroyed can easily be the consequence of a few missiles that Pain used and missed.



So we know Pain charges Jiraiya, that Pain used ranged attacks against Jiraiya, and that at some point or another Jiraiya himself went on the offensive while getting roughed up between those stages.

That's fighting, not running away and hiding.


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## Gianfi (Jun 12, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Still spouting BS as per usual.


Why? What's wrong with what he said?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2017)

Total warrior said:


> Why? What's wrong with what he said?




MS Sasuke and Itachi are not carbon copies of each other. 

Their abilities/tools, fighting styles and experience with MS is vastly different.


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## Hazuki (Jun 12, 2017)

Seriously , jiraiya is EASELY Hight kage level
also he never felt inferior to minato , he praised him as his master prainsing his dear studiant who sacrifice his life for the sake of konoha
same for minato he praised his master in front of him in the flashback
orochimaru never praised minato , he even wandering why the 3th choosed him instead of himself

even without aknowledge , pain never hurt jiraiya until the sannin though the fight was over then he ambushed him and cut his arm
*even with one fucking arm* he put nice fight against the 6 pain and kill one ( kakashim himself was amazed knowing this information )
pain admit his inferiority as his master had aknoledge
the guy who is the leader of akatsuki , who put him as a real god during all his fight , admit his inferiority after jiraiya died

the sannin without sennin mod  was abble to stop kyubi 4

even kakashi part 1 was elite jounin level
just base jiraiya is easely mid kage level , with just one jutsu , he almost killed 2  among the strongest akatsuki in the same time if it wasn't for MS

how jiraiya sennin mod can be only mid level if a WEAK kakashi part 1 is elite top jounin level ??
base jiraiya who was trouble against itachi /kisame and konan is easely Mid level kage 

and sennin mod is easely High level kage

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> People must keep forgetting that the initial three Pains never landed a finger on Jiraiya.
> 
> According to Jiraiya himself he went on the offensive at at least one point, so this "he was just running away" needs to go on somewhere.



If this was for me, i already said he tried to be on the offensive not once, but several times.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> If this was for me, i already said he tried to be on the offensive not once, but several times.



Yeah but you also said it was more like hide and seek.

It was directed at anyone, though there was one particular poster in mind.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah but you also said it was more like hide and seek.
> 
> It was directed at anyone, though there was one particular poster in mind.



Indeed. Even if the paths didn't touch Jiraiya, he had to resort to guerrilla tactics to fight three.

I don't think Jiraiya engaged the six paths the entire time face to face. Especially if he wanted to take the paths one by one, he had to hide and run. It's very hard to see one-arm injured Jiraiya fighting 6 at the same time.

Especially when we saw Deva + Preta Combo destroying Sage Mode Naruto in like two seconds.

The panels where the paths are landing behind him shows Jiraiya was also running or had to catch a breath and they found him. No other reason to give them your back.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2017)

They were looking for Jiraiya after he grabbed Animal Pain. He tried to grab each of them, though, so he wasn't hiding from them.


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## AdamWiz (Jun 12, 2017)

Some of you are underrating Jiraya's abilties. Mid-kage? I think not.
Till this day, I still believe he would've been able to defeat Pain if he knew about their abilities. If itachi, someone who is inferior to Jiraya, beat Nagato then Jiraya can do the same.

Jiraya is undoubtedly High-Kage level. He's stronger than most characters.
But he's dead anyway so

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> They were looking for Jiraiya after he grabbed Animal Pain. He tried to grab each of them, though, so he wasn't hiding from them.



But he grabbed Animal Path taking him alone and tried to kill Asura Path by surprise attack.

If he wanted to take them one by one, how can he do so without sneak attacks? Even if going against the 6, taking one hostage to kill it it's hidding from the others. As i don't think he wanted to fight the 6 head on and kill them one by one with the others there.

That looks too... unreachable even being healthy.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 12, 2017)

He's bottom of mid kage, top of low kage level.

He's nothing without Fukasaku and Shima carrying him, and even then he's not even Pein level who's at the bottom of high kage.

God tier:
People like the Otsutsuki's, Naruto, Sasuke, Gai, DMS Kakashi, JJ's

Top tier: 

People like Hashirama, Kabuto (ET army), Orochimaru (ET Hokages) and EMS Madara

High Kage:

People like Kisame, Nagato, Obito, Itachi, Minato, Pein, Prime Hanzo, Yagura, Bee etc

Mid Kage: Onoki, Orochimaru with P1 Edos, Muu, Gaara, War Kakashi etc

Low Kage: Jiraiya, Old Hiruzen, Wind Arc Naruto, Hebi Sasuke etc.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> But he grabbed Animal Path taking him alone and tried to kill Asura Path by surprise attack.
> 
> If he wanted to take them one by one, how can he do so without sneak attacks? Even if going against the 6, taking one hostage to kill it it's hidding from the others. As i don't think he wanted to fight the 6 head on and kill them one by one with the others there.
> 
> That looks too... unreachable even being healthy.



He probably didn't try to take them one by one based on how he worded it.

It's not fleeing from them because he intended to do the same to each of them, not one by one.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> He probably didn't try to take them one by one based on how he worded it.



Then he was crazy.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jun 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Then he was crazy.


Jiraiya being crazy has never been in dispute!


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 12, 2017)

Mid kage seeing as he was defeated by a collective high kage tier unit not using the power that makes it high kage tier.

Just common sense really.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 15, 2017)

My Kage level tiers would be something like...

Low Kage: Gaara, Rasa, Kisame, Darui, and Mei are some representatives in no order

Mid Kage: Sasori, 3rd Raikahe, 4th Raikage, Orochimaru (IC without Edos) are good representatives of this tier

High Kage: Itachi, Killer Bee, Muu, Onoki post Stone Will represent this well

Hokage: Prime Hiruzen, Tobirama with Edo Tensei, Minato, Nagato, and Prime Hanzo are good fits

God: Hashirama, Madara, Naruto, Sasuke

These are subjective tiers and rankings obviously.

I would place a generic Jiraiya who starts in base in the lower end of High Kage. If Jiraiya makes it to SM or starts in SM he is solidly High Kage as one of its stronger members. Jiraiya in a hypothetical situation where he is stuck in base is solidly Mid Kage. Poisoned Jiraya is Low Kage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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