# [Spoiler 46]: Koji Vs itachi



## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

location: Jiraiya & Tsunade Vs Oro & Kabuto
knowledge: Manga
Distance: 15m
restrictions: None
Mindset: IC, to kill

if you haven't read the chapter: 


who wins?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

@Draco Bolton 

your Yomi Numa is here... 
Do you think it will defeat this fodder called itachi?


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Obviously Jiraiya (aka k
Koji with the toad oil bombs), wins neg diff.

The time is here.

Its over

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Literally states 'he was created'.

So it's not 'Jiraiya' from Naruto. Hussain you've just ended the dreams of the Sannin band


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> The time is here.
> 
> Its over


you underestimate itachi's fanboys denial power. Just saying... 



Santoryu said:


> Literally states 'he was created'.
> 
> So it's not 'Jiraiya' from Naruto. Hussain you've just ended the dreams or the Sannin band


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

@Turrin

You were the one who was 100% sure it was Jiraiya from Naruto.

Your theory has been debunked.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Honestly all we saw this chapter is that Yomi Numa would definitely slow Itachi down even with Susanoo out as he isn’t muscling out of it; and that Itachi would need MS to defend Koji’s/Jiriaya Jutsu; which are two things I’ve always believed.

Beyond that we have the summoning of the Flames, which idk how that would work if Itachi is using Susanoo, but it would certainly be a major problem for him if he wasn’t.

So imo Koji can win against Itachi; and Itachi can still win against Koji. Unless we take Koji keeping up with Karma Jigen in CQC seriously then Koji smacks but the author keeps telling us Jigen is weakened for a reason


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> @Turrin
> 
> You were the one who was 100% sure it was Jiraiya from Naruto.
> 
> Your theory has been debunked.


He was created from Jiriaya was always my theory bruv

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Beyond that we have the summoning of the Flames, which idk how that would work if Itachi is using Susanoo, but it would certainly be a major problem for him if he wasn’t.


Well, since Susanoo is open from underneath, wouldn't the flame get him regardless? 
since they will be summoned from underneath it as well.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Cyborg Jiraiya (Kashin Koji) is the equivalent to Edo Itachi (Resurrection with Edo Tensei jutsu) in the sense that its still the same character 



All the same jutsu and techniques

Its over.


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He was created from Jiriaya was always my theory bruv



No 

You said he Was Jiraiya also


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> No
> 
> You said he Was Jiraiya also


Yes in the sense that he was create from Jiraiya corpse; and that Jiriaya will likely come back at some point; Anakin / Darth Vader style


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Well, since Susanoo is open from underneath, wouldn't the flame get him regardless?
> since they will be summoned from underneath it as well.


This is true


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

Well YN one shots even before Boruto Manga came out.

NBD Jiraiya gets blitzed lol diff tho.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes in the sense that he was create from Jiraiya corpse; and that Jiriaya will likely come back at some point; Anakin / Darth Vader style



Well you should have clarified that back then 




Turrin said:


> Jiraiya surpassed him with Sage Mode; until Boruto at which point Jiraiya will surpass him against as Kashin Koji



Based on this post it'd imply otherwise

You're using Kashin Koji to elevate Jiraiya over Orochimaru 

If it was a robot derived from Jiraiya you would not be making the argument


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

I want to add that Koji was confident of defeat Delta who is>>>>>>>>Itachi. So Koji blitzes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

I don’t see how Itachi breaks out of the Yomi Numa black flames from the mountain jutsu 

Naruto’s thoughts and this exact jutsu makes it seem obvious it’s Jiriaya or someone using his chakra signature 

but the line 

“ninja are meant to be used as tools “ doesn’t jive with his characterization and makes me believe more it could possibly be Hiruzen’s son who was in fact used as a tool in the ANBU this guy has a gripe with Shinobi


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

I'm a die hard Itachi fan but honestly, it could go either way simply for the fact KK seems to be very very very smart, great in tactics and to have great composure, areas where Itachi usually outplays any ninja he confronts.
Sharingan might be the X factor in Itachi's favour but nothing is sure.

anyway, KK is my favourite character of Boruto so far.
People say he reminds us Jiraiya but personally I find him more similarities with Itachi.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Well you should have clarified that back then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean like the thread I made about the subject lol:


And Yeah that’s because for all intents and purposes Koji is Jiriaya; and if not at the start he will eventually regain Jiriaya personality and spirit in the end; like Darth Vader and Anakin.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I don’t see how Itachi breaks out of the Yomi Numa black flames from the mountain jutsu
> 
> Naruto’s thoughts and this exact jutsu makes it seem obvious it’s Jiriaya or someone using his chakra signature
> 
> ...


Hiruzen son who just so happens to have every same Jutsu as Jiriaya; can we get over this now and just say he is Jiriaya or some Mecha Jiriaya. Like I said before Amado messed with Jiriaya mind


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You mean like the thread I made about the subject lol:
> 
> 
> And Yeah that’s because for all intents and purposes Koji is Jiriaya; and if not at the start he will eventually regain Jiriaya personality and spirit in the end; like Darth Vader and Anakin.



This clarification was in 2020.

The post I linked of yours is from august 2019

Admit it. Back then you genuinely thought Jiraiya could literally be Kashin Koji 

Sure you may have amended your theory now but I'm not disputing that


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

@Shazam


I also seen your recent threads where you say 'Jiraiya is Kashin Koji'

It seems you were wrong 
These must be trying times bro


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Honestly all we saw this chapter is that Yomi Numa would definitely slow Itachi down even with Susanoo out as he isn’t muscling out of it; and that Itachi would need MS to defend Koji’s/Jiriaya Jutsu; which are two things I’ve always believed.


How so? Jigen literally muscles out of it.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How so? Jigen literally muscles out of it.


No he doesn’t he shrinks to escape. He specifically can’t muscle out of it and need to use his Shrinking


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen son who just so happens to have every same Jutsu as Jiriaya; can we get over this now and just say he is Jiriaya or some Mecha Jiriaya. Like I said before Amado messed with Jiriaya mind



Hiruzen also has Katon’s uses clones as misdirection and Jiriaya to my knowledge couldn’t summon flames from the mountains like I said I am learning towards Jiriaya chakra in cyborg but I just don’t buy mind controlling a guy to hate ninja , he seems to be more accomplice than puppet I’m sorry you just don’t give a major player like this plausible deniability it’s just shit writing , now if it’s someone else using Jiriaya jutsu who is a random like Jigen I’m down for that mind controlled Jiriaya horrific writing


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen son who just so happens to have every same Jutsu as Jiriaya; can we get over this now and just say he is Jiriaya or some Mecha Jiriaya. Like I said before Amado messed with Jiriaya mind



Hiruzen also has Katon’s uses clones as misdirection and Jiriaya to my knowledge couldn’t summon flames from the mountains like I said I am learning towards Jiriaya chakra in cyborg but I just don’t buy mind controlling a guy to hate ninja , he seems to be more accomplice than puppet I’m sorry you just don’t give a major player like this plausible deniability it’s just shit writing , now if it’s someone else using Jiriaya jutsu who is a random like Jigen I’m down for that mind controlled Jiriaya horrific writing


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen son who just so happens to have every same Jutsu as Jiriaya; can we get over this now and just say he is Jiriaya or some Mecha Jiriaya. Like I said before Amado messed with Jiriaya mind



Hiruzen also has Katon’s uses clones as misdirection and Jiriaya to my knowledge couldn’t summon flames from the mountains like I said I am learning towards Jiriaya chakra in cyborg but I just don’t buy mind controlling a guy to hate ninja , he seems to be more accomplice than puppet I’m sorry you just don’t give a major player like this plausible deniability it’s just shit writing , now if it’s someone else using Jiriaya jutsu who is a random like Jigen I’m down for that mind controlled Jiriaya horrific writing


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> This clarification was in 2020.
> 
> The post I linked of yours is from august 2019
> 
> ...


And back in 2012 you used to be a good poster and now.... 

Things change, what’s your point


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How so? Jigen literally muscles out of it.



Yeah the same Jigen that kicked Sasuke out of his Susanoo like a drunk perv in a strip club


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> @Shazam
> 
> 
> I also seen your recent threads where you say 'Jiraiya is Kashin Koji'
> ...



He is the same in the same sense that a corpse with a tag using ET jutsu is Itachi


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hiruzen also has Katon’s uses clones as misdirection and Jiriaya to my knowledge couldn’t summon flames from the mountains like I said I am learning towards Jiriaya chakra in cyborg but I just don’t buy mind controlling a guy to hate ninja , he seems to be more accomplice than puppet I’m sorry you just don’t give a major player like this plausible deniability it’s just shit writing , now if it’s someone else using Jiriaya jutsu who is a random like Jigen I’m down for that mind controlled Jiriaya horrific writing


It’s not just Katon jutsu now it’s also Dark Swamp


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah the same Jigen that kicked Sasuke out of his Susanoo like a drunk perv in a strip club


No, that was fresh Jigen.

This was <10% Jigen.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How so? Jigen literally muscles out of it.



Jigen >>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And back in 2012 you used to be a good poster and now....
> 
> Things change, what’s your point



My point is your original theory was wrong.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No he doesn’t he shrinks to escape. He specifically can’t muscle out of it and need to use his Shrinking


I see, didn't notice that at first.

I guess by shrinking himself, he makes space between his body and the swamp and flies above before the swamp fills that space up. Neat strategy.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jigen >>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi


Nothing indicates death bed Jigen is that strong.


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> He is the same in the same sense that a corpse with a tag using ET jutsu is Itachi



It's a different entity my dude

Just because Orochimaru has Hashirama cells doesn't mean he is Hashirama


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, that was fresh Jigen.
> 
> This was <10% Jigen.



Jigen still has karma activated and with that is by far the physically strongest entity we have seen thus far pretty much even at 10% he’s still far stronger than anyone else


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, that was fresh Jigen.
> 
> This was <10% Jigen.



Jigen still has karma activated and with that is by far the physically strongest entity we have seen thus far pretty much even at 10% he’s still far stronger than anyone else


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I see, didn't notice that at first.
> 
> I guess by shrinking himself, he makes space between his body and the swamp and flies above before the swamp fills that space up. Neat strategy.


Yup; Shrinking is a really good ability


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> My point is your original theory was wrong.


Cool story bro; who cares lol


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s not just Katon jutsu now it’s also Dark Swamp



Doesn’t Konohamaru literally use every jutsu that Naruto does , like I said jiraiya is in that guy somewhere but his portrayal just makes it seem not to be Jiriaya and could he be duped by Amando in that he’s going
 Along with something without all of the knowledge yes , is he just a mind controlled robot no because that has not happened in the manga every single villain has a gripe with the world and are willingly being manipulated .


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s not just Katon jutsu now it’s also Dark Swamp



Doesn’t Konohamaru literally use every jutsu that Naruto does , like I said jiraiya is in that guy somewhere but his portrayal just makes it seem not to be Jiriaya and could he be duped by Amando in that he’s going
 Along with something without all of the knowledge yes , is he just a mind controlled robot no because that has not happened in the manga every single villain has a gripe with the world and are willingly being manipulated .


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Jigen still has karma activated and with that is by far the physically strongest entity we have seen thus far pretty much even at 10% he’s still far stronger than anyone else


No, even Boruto and Kawaki have Karma that they can activate yet they're not stronger than everyone who doesn't have Karma. Nonsense logic.



Turrin said:


> Yup; Shrinking is a really good ability


I didn't think of this counter before.

I am imagining you could replicate this by increasing in size and then returning back to original size.

For an example base Choji gets caught in Yomi Numa -> Goes Butterfly Mode -> Goes to base and jumps out before swamp fills the space up again

Susanoo user could do this as well by going higher versions and then returning to base


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> It's a different entity my dude
> 
> Just because Orochimaru has Hashirama cells doesn't mean he is Hashirama


This isn’t cells dude its likely mostly Jiriaya simply augmented and revived with the same tech in all the Kara members; and with Amado mind tampering. As I said WoF TNJ will bring him back if he already isn’t secretly in control and playing Amado as well


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

This Konohamaru's father debate is so bizarre 
@Eliyua23 's posts always come out as....bizarre to me... 


Konohamaru's parents are both ANBUs, what could possibly make you come with those strange thoughts, I will understand..


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, even Boruto and Kawaki have Karma that they can activate yet they're not stronger than everyone who doesn't have Karma. Nonsense logic.
> 
> 
> I am imagining you could replicate this by increasing in size and then returning back to original size.
> ...


BM Chouji is mad underrated here


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Doesn’t Konohamaru literally use every jutsu that Naruto does , like I said jiraiya is in that guy somewhere but his portrayal just makes it seem not to be Jiriaya and could he be duped by Amando in that he’s going
> Along with something without all of the knowledge yes , is he just a mind controlled robot no because that has not happened in the manga every single villain has a gripe with the world and are willingly being manipulated .


When has Naruto had this fighting style; with Dark Swamp


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## AfroUchiha (May 20, 2020)

*"Amaterasu* is a  , and the highest level of ."

*Cyborg Jiraiya*: Hold my Beer


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## Artistwannabe (May 20, 2020)

Koji mops the floor with Itachi.


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

Why is anyone answering to Turrin in a "Itachi vs ... " thread?
He's been a well known Itachi hater/troller for more than a decade (cf his threads about konan being stronger than Itachi or about how Edo Itachi would get trolled by both Naruto and Killer bee before their fight)


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## Siskebabas (May 20, 2020)

AfroUchiha said:


> *"Amaterasu* is a  , and the highest level of ."
> 
> *Cyborg Jiraiya*: Hold my Beer


I think ameterasu is indeed stronger and more intensive, though those flames are just normalus Flame which he cant absorb thats entire point


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, even Boruto and Kawaki have Karma that they can activate yet they're not stronger than everyone who doesn't have Karma. Nonsense logic.
> 
> 
> I didn't think of this counter before.
> ...



They don’t even know how to use their Karma properly yet and in Kawaki’s case he’s hasn’t become a vessel yet so no


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, even Boruto and Kawaki have Karma that they can activate yet they're not stronger than everyone who doesn't have Karma. Nonsense logic.
> 
> 
> I didn't think of this counter before.
> ...



They don’t even know how to use their Karma properly yet and in Kawaki’s case he’s hasn’t become a vessel yet so no


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## ShinAkuma (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> This clarification was in 2020.
> 
> The post I linked of yours is from august 2019
> 
> ...





Kashin will be revealed as Jiraiya. He will have Jiraiya's memories and the story will end up exploring that.

Of course he will be Jiraiya resurrected with ninja tech. (I predicted this last year) But as a character he will be Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> He's been a well known Itachi hater/troller for more than a decade


IIRC, he think this alleged "healthy" itachi will defeat Jiraiya.
So, he is in the itachi's fanboys by default. 

itachi Vs Jman outcome is the deciding factor...


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When has Naruto had this fighting style; with Dark Swamp



No , I said don’t Konomaharu and Naruto have a similar fighting style ?


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When has Naruto had this fighting style; with Dark Swamp



No , I said don’t Konomaharu and Naruto have a similar fighting style ?


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> IIRC, he think this alleged "healthy" itachi will defeat Jiraiya.
> So, he is in the itachi's fanboys by default.
> 
> itachi Vs Jman outcome is the deciding factor...


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## WorldsStrongest (May 20, 2020)

Regardless of whether its Jiraiya or not, its not JIRAIYA.

Dude literally states "I was created"

So this is either an android programmed with Jiraiyas moves, or the remains of Jiraiyas body restored and recreated with cyborg Ninja tech, and on top of that post like 20 years of training.

Its not Jiraiya 

Theres also nothing that impressive in this chapter

Its kinda like yall forgot that its stated Jigen is so weak right now that fodders have a genuine chance to kill him...Its literally the crux of their entire plan to take advantage of Jigens weakened state.

Thinking this scales KK anywhere is silly.

Itachi bodies him as KK is still largely an unknown quantity.

Also no Genjutsu defense

Reactions: Like 4


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Regardless of whether its Jiraiya or not, its not JIRAIYA.
> 
> Dude literally states "I was created"
> 
> ...



i think you're underestimating KK, especially his intelligence and analytical skills which seem much higher than Jiraiya's and as we know, that's good skills to have against someone as smart as Itachi.
And because of that, I trust him more to defend himself against genjutsu than jiraiya.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> No , I said don’t Konomaharu and Naruto have a similar fighting style ?


No really. They have Rasengan. But nether have Dark Swamp only Koji and Jiriaya


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

if we say Jiguen >= Naruto & Sasuke

Jigen's 10% will equal Sasuke's 20% or so...

I would say that it is still impressive...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Why is anyone answering to Turrin in a "Itachi vs ... " thread?
> He's been a well known Itachi hater/troller for more than a decade (cf his threads about konan being stronger than Itachi or about Edo Itachi would get trolled by both Naruto and Killer bee before their fight)


Lol complains about literally the only one who said Itachi can win is an Itachi hater lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No really. They have Rasengan. But nether have Dark Swamp only Koji and Jiriaya



Koji has Rasengan, toads, toad oil Jutsu, Katon Endan, Yomi Numa. Jiraiya's Jutsus indeed.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> i think you're underestimating KK


He hasnt done anything with which we can scale him 

Period

Jigen in the narrative is stated to be weakened beyond belief at this point and his state is the only reason KK and Amado even thought they had a snowballs chance, and newsflash, it isnt gonna work. Jigen obviously isnt gonna die or lose at this point, so KK is either gonna run like a bitch, or his days are numbered.

Point is, we dont know how being this low on chakra affects Jigens physical stats or anything of the sort, but we do know he was literally falling apart when he left Naruto and Sasuke. So id imagine the answer to that is "not good at all"


Itachi36 said:


> especially his intelligence and analytical skills which seem much higher than Jiraiya


Based on what?

Attacking a weakened enemy and exploiting the weakness every chakra absorption ability has?

Shit morons can figure out?

Yeah ok

Like Intellect is a stat that matters in this verse anyway


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> if we say Jiguen >= Naruto & Sasuke
> 
> Jigen's 10% will equal Sasuke's 20% or so...
> 
> I would say that it is still impressive...



You are right


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dude literally states "I was created"


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## Itachi san88 (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Cyborg Jiraiya (Kashin Koji) is the equivalent to Edo Itachi (Resurrection with Edo Tensei jutsu) in the sense that its still the same character
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Edo Itachi is just healthy Itachi with no sickness, no MS pain back-lash and chakra limits. KK can summon real flames from a different location and the toads are mechanical. KK probably is not even human. He's not the equivalent to Edo Itachi or Edo Tensei in general


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

Can we agree Kakashi is not relevant anymore?


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## Santoryu (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Can we agree Kakashi is not relevant anymore?



Apparently relevant enough to be mentioned in a thread that has nothing to do with him


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He hasnt done anything with which we can scale him
> 
> Period
> 
> ...



Simply based on how both were portrayed : while jiraiya has often been portrayed as the Sannin version of Naruto (see how dumb he looked in the ring bell test of Sarutobi), KK has always looked more of the smart, calculated shinobi a la Itachi/Kakashi.
It's not very hard to see that.


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## Illusory (May 20, 2020)

Thanks for sharing, @Hussain

I didn't like the artwork or villain-design much, but the overall planning/concept of the battle was very enjoyable and I feel like it was a good chapter for people like me that don't follow Boruto as the whole karma thing was explained succinctly.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Simply based on how both were portrayed : while jiraiya has often been portrayed as the Sannin version of Naruto (see how dumb he looked in the ring bell test of Sarutobi), KK has always looked more of the smart, calculated shinobi a la Itachi/Kakashi.
> It's not very hard to see that.


This post literally has nothing in it


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## Arles Celes (May 20, 2020)

Base Jigen at 10% should still be at least SM Hashirama level.

When using Karma likely above that.

So not bad for Koji.

I can see Koji as a low-mid god tier.

Stronger than Delta and maybe equal or close enough in terms of power to Naruto or Sasuke

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No really. They have Rasengan. But nether have Dark Swamp only Koji and Jiriaya



Konomaharu literally uses every single jutsu that Naruto does when you see him fight , Rasengan clones , Frog summoning ect .


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Konomaharu literally uses every single jutsu that Naruto does when you see him fight , Rasengan clones , Frog summoning ect .


Yes Rasengan, Clones, and Toads, but not Dark Swamp and Toad Oil Bullets.


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes Rasengan, Clones, and Toads, but not Dark Swamp and Toad Oil Bullets.



Im inferring that 

Kashin could be to Jiriaya what Konomaharu is to Naruto that’s what I’m saying .


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## ShinAkuma (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Can we agree Kakashi is not relevant anymore?



Who?


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

A friendly reminder this thread is Koji Vs itachi

not what his real identity might be...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Im inferring that
> 
> Kashin could be to Jiriaya what Konomaharu is to Naruto that’s what I’m saying .


Sure; but again, the is not narrative reason for a mask if it’s a new pupil character we haven’t seen before. Also the fact that Amado says he created Koji, implies heavily that he is not a new character but created from an old one.


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## Serene Grace (May 20, 2020)

I don’t think we can apply kojis feats to Jiraiya 

As for the thread topic, Koji destroys. It’s actually scary how bad this section as at scaling naruto characters to boruto characters


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Nothing indicates death bed Jigen is that strong.



Funny how suddenly being deat bed matters but when speaking of Sasuke vs Orochimaru it never did... 

Also deathbed God Tier >>>> High Kage


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> It's a different entity my dude
> 
> Just because Orochimaru has Hashirama cells doesn't mean he is Hashirama



Its literally Jiraiya but resurrected by some matter. Thats no different than coming back through ET and being controlled by Kabuto. 

Splitting hairs to say any different


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @t0xeus
> 
> Another thing to consider is that Ei4 being this pierce through shit with his attacks type didn’t really pay off well in the Manga; as Madara is able to block Ei4 punch with almost no damage, and I really doubt Madara body is suppose to be like Beyond Metal level in durability to not be pierced. Mu also even takes a weighted version of Ei4 Beyond Max speed Chop and it doesn’t go through his body just sends him flying. So I really don’t think he’s piercing through Metal level Spikes and Hair. It just doesn’t seem consistent with what we were showed from him.



human's characters are not treated the same as other objects/jutsu.

Just like how Mei's boiling jutsu melted Sasuke's Susanoo, but not his skin. 
Some people were complaining why his clothes did not get burned as well, but obviously Kishi wouldn't make him go around naked. 

Of course, this goes with other jutsu as well. That's just an example...

A's attack might be able to destroy metals, but won't be showing to have the same effects on humans.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Itachi san88 said:


> Edo Itachi is just healthy Itachi with no sickness, no MS pain back-lash and chakra limits. KK can summon real flames from a different location and the toads are mechanical. KK probably is not even human. He's not the equivalent to Edo Itachi or Edo Tensei in general



No lol

Edo Itachi is itachis DNA brought back via corpse and ET jutsu granting edo regen and stamina. 

Its not going to work. This is cyborg Jiraiya.


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> A friendly reminder this thread is Koji Vs itachi
> 
> not what his real identity might be...



KK squashes what more is there to debate he’s either not going to escape the dark swamp and if he does he’ll get burnt to a crisp with the black flame from the mountain shit .


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

They so desperately want to keep Jiraiya out of the loop with Kashin Koji despite it literally being Jiraiya 

Lmao 

I hurt for you guys


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## Reviewing Logic (May 20, 2020)

Honestly KK is the better double agent in every sense of the way then Itachi ever was.

And he barely has the same amount of screentime.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> KK squashes what more is there to debate he’s either not going to escape the dark swamp and if he does he’ll get burnt to a crisp with the black flame from the mountain shit .


please vote...


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## Isaiah13000 (May 20, 2020)

We haven't seen enough of Koji yet to make good argument about it yet imo, we need to wait until we see more from him. So until then I'll just say it can go either way.


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Piccolo said:


> Honestly KK is the better double agent in every sense of the way then Itachi ever was.
> 
> And he barely has the same amount of screentime.



This dude is awesome




Turrin said:


> Sure; but again, the is not narrative reason for a mask if it’s a new pupil character we haven’t seen before. Also the fact that Amado says he created Koji, implies heavily that he is not a new character but created from an old one.



We need to see what his face looks like first , I could also say if it’s Jiriaya then why go the mystery route ?

Yeah if he’s created then he’s a completely different guy


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Piccolo said:


> Honestly KK is the better double agent in every sense of the way then Itachi ever was.
> 
> And he barely has the same amount of screentime.



This dude is awesome




Turrin said:


> Sure; but again, the is not narrative reason for a mask if it’s a new pupil character we haven’t seen before. Also the fact that Amado says he created Koji, implies heavily that he is not a new character but created from an old one.



We need to see what his face looks like first , I could also say if it’s Jiriaya then why go the mystery route ?

Yeah if he’s created then he’s a completely different guy


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> We haven't seen enough of Koji yet to make good argument about it yet imo, we need to wait until we see more from him. So until then I'll just say it can go either way.


SM next chapter

Reactions: Like 3


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## Isaiah13000 (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> SM next chapter


That would be interesting to see.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> This dude is awesome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why go the mystery route with Tobi/Obito

And he’s a different guy until Jiriaya personality comes back


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## ShinAkuma (May 20, 2020)

Piccolo said:


> Honestly KK is the better double agent in every sense of the way then Itachi ever was.
> 
> And he barely has the same amount of screentime.


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why go the mystery route with Tobi/Obito
> 
> And he’s a different guy until Jiriaya personality comes back



because Obito was a character we hadn’t seen since he was a kid 

he’d be the first villain in the manga that doesn’t have a dark side to him


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why go the mystery route with Tobi/Obito
> 
> And he’s a different guy until Jiriaya personality comes back



because Obito was a character we hadn’t seen since he was a kid 

he’d be the first villain in the manga that doesn’t have a dark side to him


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> because Obito was a character we hadn’t seen since he was a kid
> 
> he’d be the first villain in the manga that doesn’t have a dark side to him


Nah it was just to have the mystery to draw in views 

Who would be?


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## xingi (May 20, 2020)

If itachi gets caught in that yomi numa - katon combo he's getting fried susano or not

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Why is anyone answering to Turrin in a "Itachi vs ... " thread?
> He's been a well known Itachi hater/troller for more than a decade (cf his threads about konan being stronger than Itachi or about how Edo Itachi would get trolled by both Naruto and Killer bee before their fight)


Yep we know


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## Sapherosth (May 20, 2020)

Genjutsu GG
Tosuka GG
Amateratsu GG


Nothing changes.


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nah it was just to have the mystery to draw in views
> 
> Who would be?



Kashin Koji would the first villain in thee entire manga to not have a personal motivation to do what he does .


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## blk (May 20, 2020)

Voted could go either way.

Because we still don't know if KK can deal with ocular Genjutsu or not, if he can't then he very very likely loses to that.

Otherwise, if he can, i would say that massive Yomi Numa + Flames summoning is likely to win the fight.

Not seeing Itachi getting out of it if Jigen with V2 Karma strength couldn't (he had to use shrinking + flight).


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Kashin Koji would the first villain in thee entire manga to not have a personal motivation to do what he does .


We don’t know he doesn’t have a motivation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Funny how suddenly being deat bed matters but when speaking of Sasuke vs Orochimaru it never did...


Indeed, it's almost as if NBD is composed of more than just one person.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Indeed, it's almost as if NBD is composed of more than just one person.



Or just hypocrisy


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Or just hypocrisy


I never said Orochimaru being on death-bed doesn't matter, so not my hypocrisy.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I never said Orochimaru being on death-bed doesn't matter, so not my hypocrisy.



I didn't say you did I?


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

even a weakened Jigen should be massively powerful. When a full strength one can low diff adult fate bros


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

I'm at least glad the jutsus are getting more panel time to showcase what they can do


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I didn't say you did I?


Probably not

But neither did I ever say you did, did I?


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Probably not
> 
> But neither did I ever say you did, did I?



What was your point in qouting me again?


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> What was your point in qouting me again?


You made it sound like I am being hypocritical for thinking Jigen being weak matters 

I didn't think you are quoting me to ramble about what other people who are not me said


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You made it sound like I am being hypocritical for thinking Jigen being weak matters
> 
> I didn't think you are quoting me to ramble about what other people who are not me said



Generalized


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## SakuraLover16 (May 20, 2020)

Where are the god tier arguments?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Where are the god tier arguments?



Its hard to tell how powerful weakened Jigen is tbh


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## The_Conqueror (May 20, 2020)

1% or even less than that of Narutos power would make Hashirama. So jigen being at 10℅ doesnot matter. He would scale above guys like hashirama eirherway who is way above Itachi.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SakuraLover16 (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Its hard to tell how powerful weakened Jigen is tbh


He was willing to kill Delta who was fighting Naruto. The fate bro’s were effortlessly solod by Jigen. NBD logic would mean he is god tier and this logic is flawless totally nothing wrong with it XD.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

The_Conqueror said:


> 1% or even less than that of Narutos power would make Hashirama. So jigen being at 10℅ doesnot matter. He would scale above guys like *hashirama eirherway who is way above Itachi.*



according to Hashirama himself btw....oups


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

blk said:


> Voted could go either way.
> 
> Because we still don't know if KK can deal with ocular Genjutsu or not, if he can't then he very very likely loses to that.
> 
> ...



Lol Koji blitzes.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> according to Hashirama himself btw....oups



Of course you'd believe Itachi is above Hashirama but ignore Juubito saying koji beat him


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## Draco Bolton (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> @Draco Bolton
> 
> your Yomi Numa is here...
> Do you think it will defeat this fodder called itachi?


I don't have an opinion, I don't read Filleruto (tbh the drawings are disgusting). All these characters are losers. And no one here is able to tame Base Yomi Numa. Only Base Yomi Numa can solo Itachi (and the verse) among the Yomis Numas.

All I know about Filleruto is this masked character that the NBD Jirayafans want him to be Jiraya just for the fight and not for the character himself. And everything I read here "it's over, this guy is Jiraya", it reminds me of shippers in total insecurity.


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Of course you'd believe Itachi is above Hashirama but ignore Juubito saying koji beat him



i didn't say that Itachi was above Hashirama either, i would just find curious that kishimoto would make Hashirama say that someone was a better shinobi than him if that same shinobi was way behind Hashirama's level (to quote the poster I was answering to)....and you?

not to mention that Oro in part 1 said that with Itachi in his team, there wouldn't have been any problem to invad konoha and defeat Sarutobi at all, all of that after having used edo tensei versions of Hashirama and tobirama (weaker versions than the original ones ok but with unlimited chakra and as invincible on physical attacks as last arc war edos)


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## Artistwannabe (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> i didn't say that Itachi was above Hashirama either, i would just find curious that kishimoto would make Hashirama say that someone was a better shinobi than him if that same shinobi was way behind Hashirama's level....and you?


Him being a better shinobi was in his ideals, not his combat abilities since Hashirama never even witnessed Itachi. Lay off the weed bro.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

At the moment, it's unclear. Not sure why people are scaling Koji to Jigen when he's literally stated to be weakened.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> i didn't say that Itachi was above Hashirama either, i would just find curious that kishimoto would make Hashirama say that someone was a better shinobi than him if that same shinobi was way behind Hashirama's level (to quote the poster I was answering to)....and you?
> 
> not to mention that Oro in part 1 said that with Itachi in his team, there wouldn't have been any problem to invad konoha and defeat Sarutobi at all, all of that after having used edo tensei versions of Hashirama and tobirama (weaker versions than the original ones ok but with unlimited chakra and as invincible as last arc war edos)



Plenty of hyperbole exists in the manga. Light speed Haku for example being one of them


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## Artistwannabe (May 20, 2020)

Mawt said:


> At the moment, it's unclear. Not sure why people are scaling Koji to Jigen when he's literally stated to be weakened.


It's kinda obvious KK is god-tier or close to it, since he was ready to take on Delta before she was put to sleep. Jigen also went into his v2 state so if he keeps up with THAT then it's pretty clear that his physicals are above high-kage even if Jigen is weakened.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Jigen scales to Kaguya easily at FP. 

While weakened I would presume still above Founder tier


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> It's kinda obvious KK is god-tier or close to it, since he was ready to take on Delta before she was put to sleep.


So was Boro, but that chump got clowned by Boruto's team.



Artistwannabe said:


> Jigen also went into his v2 state so if he keeps up with THAT then it's pretty clear that his physicals are above high-kage even if Jigen is weakened.


But he's weakened, so you cannot possibly scale him until we actually get to see what he can do while weakened. The best you can argue as of now is that Koji scales to Delta, but that method of scaling is sort of wonky based off of the Boro example. I'd say we should wait until next chapter before we decidedly scale Koji tbh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Him being a better shinobi was in his ideals, not his combat abilities since Hashirama never even witnessed Itachi. Lay off the weed bro.



you think i'm stupid?
Of course that it was mostly about what it takes to be a shinobi mentally.
But your point about never witnessing Itachi is a tad bullshite, you can evaluate some characters level just by hearing feats and just before making that statement, Hashirama already heard about Itachi that:
-as a young teen, he destroyed the famous Uchiha clan by himself (Sasuke and Sarutobi didn't précise that Tobi helped him which might have impressed him even more), a clan feared all around the world and who both tobirama and Hashirama know only too well the strength and dangerosity
-when he was only 7, he was thinking like a hokage.

obviously not enough of a reason for him to say he was weaker than Itachi in term of level but at least, don't say there weren't anything for him to fall for Itachi's hype


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Plenty of hyperbole exists in the manga. Light speed Haku for example being one of them



the problem with Itachi is that Kishi hyperboles him almost everytime he mentions him so he is a bit different level to the others in that aspect (like would say Kabuto)


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## MajinBuu (May 20, 2020)

KK has shown interesting things. We already knew that KK was on the same level as Delta which competes with Naruto and in addition it uses spells of jiraiya and fights intelligently. Genjustsu surely does not work on robots. His Yomi numa + Kuchiyose pierces the susano'o. If he is as fast as Delta he can dodge Amaterasu.

Itachi can survive with izanagi. But he won't be able to destroy KK.


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## Kagutsutchi (May 20, 2020)

Even if jigen were at 1% of his power(he's 10%) when koji fought him, that's still way above Itachi. 

Unless people think that SPSM Naruto is less than 10x stronger than base Naruto and base Naruto can be beaten by Itachi


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## Marvel (May 20, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> Unless people think that SPSM Naruto is less than 10x stronger than base Naruto


This is most likely true. Remember,amps in Naruto aren't multiplicative. They're additive. The S4 said CS2 gave them a 10x boost. Saskue's CS was even stronger but does it seem like he's over 10x faster and stronger when he uses it in his Hebi days?

I mean come on. The guy was able to nearly blitz Deidara someone who has remarkable speed feats at the start of Shippuden. Give him a 10x amp and hes blitzing him without even a mental reaction. But that's not the case.

Naruto can throw hands with Momosiki in base. When he activates RSM he now can fight on even ground. If RSM was a 10x boost he'd paste Momoshiki in CQC.

The weaker you are the bigger the amp. Additive amps.


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## Kassididdy956 (May 20, 2020)

Marvel said:


> This is most likely true. Remember,amps in Naruto aren't multiplicative. They're additive. The S4 said CS2 gave them a 10x boost. Saskue's CS was even stronger but does it seem like he's over 10x faster and stronger when he uses it in his Hebi days?
> 
> I mean come on. The guy was able to nearly blitz Deidara someone who has remarkable speed feats at the start of Shippuden. Give him a 10x amp and hes blitzing him without even a mental reaction. But that's not the case.
> 
> ...


Yea no


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## Marvel (May 20, 2020)

Kassididdy956 said:


> Yea no


Nice rebutall.

Amps aren't multiplicative. That's proven true by the manga. You have nothing you can bring up that'd prove what you believe.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Nothing indicates death bed Jigen is that strong.



He's literally not death bed and a fraction of the strength that rivals Kaguya is still much stronger than the likes of Itachi


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## Kagutsutchi (May 20, 2020)

Marvel said:


> Nice rebutall.
> 
> Amps aren't multiplicative. That's proven true by the manga. You have nothing you can bring up that'd prove what you believe.


Some amps are additive while others are multiplicative. Amps like Byakugo are clearly additive since it's just your own chakra that has been stored for years and years.

 Amps like sage mode can't be additive since to enter sage mode in the first place you need a high amount of chakra in the first place to enter it. Sage mode also involves balancing physical and spiritual energy with Natural energy in equal components. So it has to be multiplicative.

SPSM is super sage mode so it's clearly multiplicative.

This is my interpretation though based on what I believe, so you have no need to believe me.


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## Quipchaque (May 20, 2020)

Tsukuyomi gg, totsuka blade good game, koto good game. Easy peasy hoessain.


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## Jad (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Its literally Jiraiya but resurrected by some matter. Thats no different than coming back through ET and being controlled by Kabuto.
> 
> Splitting hairs to say any different


You don't know how to use the word "literally"...


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Jad said:


> You don't know how to use the word "literally"...



And you don't know where to insert a comma.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

If we just had Jiraiya in the WA we wouldn't have had to deal with years of underrating him because he didn't get that OP scaling boost where the WA doesn't make any sense at all and scaling went out the window


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> He's literally not death bed and a fraction of the strength that rivals Kaguya is still much stronger than the likes of Itachi


Except the fact that fraction of Kaguya is also much stronger than the likes of Jigen.

Base Kaguya already defeated Prime Isshiki, Jigen is fraction of Prime Isshiki.

As of now it's:
Prime Kaguya >> Base Kaguya >> Prime Isshiki >>>> Jigen >>>>> Jigen at 10%

Nothing indicates he's even demi god now.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Except the fact that fraction of Kaguya is also much stronger than the likes of Jigen.
> 
> Base Kaguya already defeated Prime Isshiki, Jigen is fraction of Prime Isshiki.
> 
> ...



No jigen is OP and is low diffing a 2v1 against 2 other upper God Tiers. 

10% of high GT is still at least Founder Tier


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 20, 2020)

Piccolo said:


> Honestly KK is the better double agent in every sense of the way then Itachi ever was.
> 
> And he barely has the same amount of screentime.


I’m picturing Itachi attacking Obito or Pain like that, only for Itachi to be shown to be day dreaming, and going on ahead, taking Obito’s orders to go catch a Jinchuriki and following them closely, ultimately dying without ever making a move as ballsy as KK just took.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> No jigen is OP and is low diffing a 2v1 against 2 other upper God Tiers.
> 
> 10% of high GT is still at least Founder Tier


Nothing indicates <10% Jigen is not just Kage Tier.


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## Hardcore (May 20, 2020)

don't read boruto

but i see someone jumping from yomi numa

then calling it a joke


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Nothing indicates <10% Jigen is not just Kage Tier.



.... 10% Jigen × 10 = Full Power Jigen 

Is 10 Itachi's beating Full Power Jigen (who low diffs Adult Sasuke + Adult Naruto)? 

Answer that.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> don't read boruto
> 
> but i see someone jumping from yomi numa
> 
> then calling it a joke



Naruto is over. Move on its Boruto now. Its Kashin Koji now

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> .... 10% Jigen × 10 = Full Power Jigen
> 
> Is 10 Itachi's beating Full Power Jigen (who low diffs Adult Sasuke + Adult Naruto)?
> 
> Answer that.


No. You're trying to simplify a concept because the unsimplified and correct version doesn't agree with your argument.

For one, current Jigen is at LESS than 10% of his power. So it could be anywhere from 9% or lower.

Also just like Juubi is stronger than the collective of bijuus it's made out of and can negdiff them with one attack, even in this case 10+ of these nerfed Jigens wouldn't be able to beat the full power Jigen that fought Naruto&Sasuke.

They would just get blitzed, as they can't keep up with a god tier.

So it's very likely that Itachi will keep up and seal the nerfed fodder with Totsuka.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No. You're trying to simplify a concept because the unsimplified and correct version doesn't agree with your argument.
> 
> For one, current Jigen is at LESS than 10% of his power. So it could be anywhere from 9% or lower.
> 
> ...



@Hussain Youre right. This fandom will try to rationalize a way for Itachi to win no matter if its a God Tier character or not 

OT: It has to be near 10% or there's not point of saying 10% when they could have easily just said 5% for example. 

And being less than 10% doesn't have to mean his physical attributes, it could mean his chakra like the shoten clones of Kisame and Itachi.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> @Hussain Youre right. This fandom will try to rationalize a way for Itachi to win no matter if its a God Tier character or not
> 
> OT: It has to be near 10% or there's not point of saying 10% when they could have easily just said 5% for example.
> 
> And being less than 10% doesn't have to mean his physical attributes, it could mean his chakra like the shoten clones of Kisame and Itachi.


Yeah, it could be anything, just not 10% or more. 9%, 8% or so is probably closest to the truth.

We literally know the cause of his nerf - he went too overboard in his last fight and his body fucked him over. So if anything, his physicals will be the most affected by it.
Adult Naruto&Sasuke could probably blitz through hundreds of these Jigens.

I'd say mid or low kage is the best estimation of power we have for him for now.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yeah, it could be anything, just not 10% or more. 9%, 8% or so is probably closest to the truth.
> 
> We literally know the cause of his nerf - he went too overboard in his last fight and his body fucked him over. So if anything, his physicals will be the most affected by it.
> Adult Naruto&Sasuke could probably blitz through hundreds of these Jigens.
> ...



That's your estimation because it keeps Koji as low as you keep Jiraiya which fits your script. Too bad there is more evidence that 10% of a high God Tier is far above low or mid kage shinobi like say Mei for example.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> That's your estimation because it keeps Koji as low as you keep Jiraiya which fits your script. Too bad there is more evidence that 10% of a high God Tier is far above low or mid kage shinobi like say Mei for example.


I don't have any agenda, KK is not even actual Jiraiya so there's no connection there in your theory.

There is _no_ evidence for 10% of a God Tier being above mid kage Shinobis. We've seen how much does concentrating power in one individual matter:

9 bijuus together make a Juubi, who in turn is able to practically neg diff those bijuus even with just Juubi Dama

Same thing happens here. Reduce a God Tier to just 10% of his overall power, and he is getting blitzed by any God Tier since he's now 90% slower.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 20, 2020)

Kaguya>Isshiki is what I got from this. She beat his ass to near death and he's just now resurfacing

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> @Hussain Youre right.


as per always


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> as per always



He has 10% Jigen being low kage


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Kaguya>Isshiki is what I got from this. She beat his ass to near death and he's just now resurfacing


Pretty much.

As of now, we know that:
1) Base Kaguya low diffed Prime Isshiki
2) Severely weakened Isshiki then enters Jigen's body
3) The monk Jigen body suppresses a lot of Isshiki's power, but he still manages to beat Adult Fatebros mainly due to hax and them being PIS/CIS nerfed
4) Then even more weakened Jigen fights KK

As of now the scaling goes:
Prime Kaguya >>> Base pre-Shinju Kaguya >>> Prime Isshiki >>> Weakened death-bed Isshiki >> Jigen >>>> less than 10% Jigen

He is low / mid kage as of now. I'd say the Jigen that fought Adult Fatebros was low god tier based on this.


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Personally, I'd say that Isshiki in his prime is Demi-God Tier. He should be equal to Base Kaguya, and she's probably around Demi-God Tier via scaling to Kinshiki and Momoshiki, who while strong, were also weak enough to have trouble with Boruto era Gokage. So if Isshiki is Demi-God Tier, he should be around Low Kage level at 10%. 

In which case, Kashin Koji should be Low Kage level. Kashin Koji is also modified to be stronger than Jiraiya, meaning that Jiraiya should be scaled down to Elite Jonin level. In other words, equal to P1 Kakashi.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Personally, I'd say that Isshiki in his prime is Demi-God Tier. He should be equal to Base Kaguya, and she's probably around Demi-God Tier via scaling to Kinshiki and Momoshiki, who while strong, were also weak enough to have trouble with Boruto era Gokage. So if Isshiki is Demi-God Tier, he should be around Low Kage level at 10%.
> 
> In which case, Kashin Koji should be Low Kage level. Kashin Koji is also modified to be stronger than Jiraiya, meaning that Jiraiya should be scaled down to Elite Jonin level. In other words, equal to P1 Kakashi.



Only head canon included* 

Otherwise good post


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Only head canon included*
> 
> Otherwise good post


I personally think it fits with the portrayal tho. 

Remember that Jiraiya is weaker than base Urashiki. Base Urashiki < Transformed Urashiki who lost to KN1 and Boruto. Remember that Jiraiya also lost to KN4, and Kakashi and Guy (Jonin levels) were able to fight against 6 V2 Jinchuriki. Jiraiya also couldn't even subdue one of Orochimaru's snakes which was defeated by KN0.

I seriously don't see why people think Jiraiya's so strong. He's never struck me as anything beyond Low Kage. Mid Kage at most.


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> There is _no_ evidence for 10% of a God Tier being above mid kage Shinobis


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Honestly Imma move Jiraiya down to the top of Low Kage on my tier list. I think it fits him better. I'll put Kashin Koji towards mid Mid Kage. I think that fits well with what we have so far.


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

Koji is>Delta as well, he blitzes and one shots here no contest.


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## Sufex (May 20, 2020)

We need to see more of KK to make a decision

And no his feats arent transferable to the naruto jman since he's been dead for like what 10 years?


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


>


Don't see what's wrong with that.

You wanna debate me on 10x of any bijuu vs Juubi?

I mean one bijuu is 1/10 of his power give or take.


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Don't see what's wrong with that.
> 
> You wanna debate me on 10x of any bijuu vs Juubi?
> 
> I mean one bijuu is 1/10 of his power give or take.



10% Jigen one shots Itachi 

And Delta one shots Itachi 

Koji=10%Jigen>Delta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi

Reactions: Like 2


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> 10% Jigen one shots Itachi
> 
> And Delta one shots Itachi
> 
> Koji=10%Jigen>Delta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi


It's baseless to assume any of those names are even demi god.

Delta got trashed by jobbing Naruto and reacted to by base Kawaki.

Prime Isshiki got trashed by Pre-Shinju Kaguya, this version of Isshiki is legit just 1% of Prime Isshiki's power.


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's baseless to assume any of those names are even demi god.
> 
> Delta got trashed by jobbing Naruto and reacted to by base Kawaki.
> 
> Prime Isshiki got trashed by Pre-Shinju Kaguya, this version of Isshiki is legit just 1% of Prime Isshiki's power.



Jobbing Naruto>Delta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi


Isshiki>Naruto and Sasuke>>>inifnite gap>>Itachi

Koji is god tier, Itachi is mid Kage. Not so difficult to understand who wins here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Oh yeah, Kara as a whole is pretty fodder as well. Delta only fought a sandbagging Naruto and her lasers were reacted to by Kawaki. Boro, who's Delta's superior, got wrecked by Boruto's team which means he's once again only like Elite Jonin level at best. If Kashin Koji scales to the rest of the Kara members, then he's only Low Kage at most. And Jiraiya, who's a weaker version of Koji, is Elite Jonin. 

This is literally the reality of it. Portrayal backs up every word of it. I used to think Jiraiya was at the top of Mid Kage, but it simply can't be it anymore. He's a lot weaker than I thought.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Jobbing Naruto>Delta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi
> 
> 
> Isshiki>Naruto and Sasuke>>>inifnite gap>>Itachi
> ...


No reason why jobbing Naruto that moves at speeds even civilian Himawari can follow is anywhere higher than kage.


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## Zero890 (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No reason why jobbing Naruto that moves at speeds even civilian Himawari can follow is anywhere higher than kage.





Imagine a high Kage giving a fight to adult Naruto

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Imagine a high Kage giving a fight to adult Naruto


She didn't give him a fight.

He neg-diffed her as soon as he got serious.

Then Delta's superior Boro got pushed into high diff by a bunch of chunins before Momoshiki took over Boruto.

Delta is at best a top jonin.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Prime Kaguya >>> Base pre-Shinju Kaguya >>> Prime Isshiki >>> Weakened death-bed Isshiki >> Jigen >>>> less than 10% Jigen


Kaguya had the Rinne-sharingan when he trashed him, apparently...


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Kaguya had the Rinne-sharingan when he trashed him, apparently...


Seems to be a plot hole. Amado proposed that maybe Kaguya wanted the fruit to herself, meaning that the fruit hadn't been eaten yet.

Either that, or Rinne-Sharingan isn't granted by the Chakra Fruit.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Seems to be a plot hole. Amado proposed that maybe Kaguya wanted the fruit to herself, meaning that the fruit hadn't been eaten yet.


he didn't make the statement as a fact tho. He only said it's a possibility... 

the Kaguya that was drawn next to Issihiki had the Rinne-Sharingan, so she had already eaten the fruit. If that's anything to go by...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> he didn't make the statement as a fact tho. He only said it's a possibility...


He didn't, but the point is that the Chakra Fruit hadn't been harvested yet, or else he wouldn't even suggest it as a possibility to begin with.


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Kaguya had the Rinne-sharingan when he trashed him, apparently...


It's possible they conquered other planets, so she might have awakened Rinne Sharingan there.

Anyways it should be Kaguya pre-Earth Shinju at the very least.

Btw what do you think of the scaling? Are Adult Naruto/Sasuke nerfed from their Teen selves? Considering they didn't win against Jigen who seems to be severely nerfed than the version trashed by Kaguya


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Btw what do you think of the scaling? Are Adult Naruto/Sasuke nerfed from their Teen selves? Considering they didn't win against Jigen who seems to be severely nerfed than the version trashed by Kaguya


I always felt they were nerfed, since the moment Naruto fought Delta. 
the removal of Naruto's sensing ability was awful as well, especially against Jigen when it would have come in handy... 

But then again, T7 & Obito had a shit ton of asspulls, PIS, PIC, and plot shield in their favor against Kaguya in order for them to
win as well... 

especially the "Kamui can be used after death" garbage

Reactions: Like 2


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> I always felt they were nerfed, since the moment Naruto fought Delta.
> the removal of Naruto's sensing ability was awful as well, especially against Jigen when it would have come in handy...
> 
> But then again, T7 & Obito had a shit ton of asspulls, PIS, PIC, and plot shield in their favor against Kaguya in order for them to
> ...


Agree. It is hard to gauge how strong Kishi thinks they are

Kaguya fight came down to PIS and that is our only point of reference really


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Agree. It is hard to gauge how strong Kishi thinks they are
> 
> Kaguya fight came down to PIS and that is our only point of reference really


People seem to forget Jigen drew chakra from his own Juubi before facing Naruto and Sasuke. And that Kaguya even in the Naruto Manga did not have the same amount of chakra she had when she ate the chakra fruit originally as it had been split up between Hagaromo and Hamura, even before she lost the Bijuu


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> People seem to forget Jigen drew chakra from his own Juubi before facing Naruto and Sasuke. And that Kaguya even in the Naruto Manga did not have the same amount of chakra she had when she ate the chakra fruit originally as it had been split up between Hagaromo and Hamura, even before she lost the Bijuu


Yeah, manga Kaguya isnt Prime either.

I did forget about Jigen taking some of Juubis chakra before the fight tho, good point. 

Tho again, we arent told how much.. everything is so vague and up to interpretation

I wish they just gave us something concrete to give readers higher confidence in the understanding of the current powerscale


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## Perfect Susano (May 20, 2020)

With the arsenal that Kashin Koji has shown, he isn't stronger than Itachi. He's some sort of modified version of Jiraiya. I wouldn't even necessarily say he's stronger than the actual Jiraiya with what he's shown because he hasn't shown Sage Mode. He just seems like an improved Base Jiraiya.

He's shown some sealing jutsu that was undone by Konohamaru and the True Fire of Samadhi, which is inferior to Amaterasu. Susano'o also counters it, since his usual usage seems to use exploding frogs or some other projectile as a medium to start the fire. In terms of hand to hand, Kashin Koji also wasn't really above Konohamaru and they matched Rasengans. So I don't know where "God Tier" is even coming from in this discussion. Less than 10% Jigen isn't that strong.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yeah, manga Kaguya isnt Prime either.
> 
> I did forget about Jigen taking some of Juubis chakra before the fight tho, good point.
> 
> ...


My point is that’s

Kaguya probably beat, possibly cheap shotted, Ishiki who didn’t have any Juubi Chakra at the time. So that really doesn’t tell us much about Ishiki 1000 Years later with Juubi Chakra.

Like wise saying Kaguya who we saw at the end of the manga wasn’t as strong as Prime Kaguya ether


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> With the arsenal that Kashin Koji has shown, he isn't stronger than Itachi. He's some sort of modified version of Jiraiya. I wouldn't even necessarily say he's stronger than the actual Jiraiya with what he's shown because he hasn't shown Sage Mode. He just seems like an improved Base Jiraiya.
> 
> He's shown some sealing jutsu that was undone by Konohamaru and the True Fire of Samadhi, which is inferior to Amaterasu. Susano'o also counters it, since his usual usage seems to use exploding frogs or some other projectile as a medium to start the fire. In terms of hand to hand, Kashin Koji also wasn't really above Konohamaru and they matched Rasengans. So I don't know where "God Tier" is even coming from in this discussion. Less than 10% Jigen isn't that strong.


I’m sorry but True Fire way >> Amaterasu; it’s got better delivery methods and flexibility


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## Perfect Susano (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I’m sorry but True Fire way >> Amaterasu; it’s got better delivery methods and flexibility


It has more ways to be applied than Amaterasu, but it's a weaker jutsu. I wouldn't even say it's easier to apply than Amaterasu.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> She didn't give him a fight.
> 
> He neg-diffed her as soon as he got serious.
> 
> ...



Dude Naruto literally says he has to get serious. Why are you purposely ignoring shit bro


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> It has more ways to be applied than Amaterasu, but it's a weaker jutsu. I wouldn't even say it's easier to apply than Amaterasu.


weaker in what way? 

It actually has feats of burning someone to death...


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## t0xeus (May 20, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Dude Naruto literally says he has to get serious. Why are you purposely ignoring shit bro


But we know that Naruto using COR is not even fraction of his full power..

If the man went BM avatar and used TBB FRS on her, then sure, she's a God Tier threat.

But the fact that he ends her with COR, which is a technique he could easily use even pre-God tier power up, tells us she isn't even approaching his full power.

And that notion is later driven home when we see Boro, someone portrayed above her, struggle against team of chunins/jonins depending on where you have Team Konohamaru


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## Perfect Susano (May 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> weaker in what way?
> 
> It actually has feats of burning someone to death...


Amaterasu is stated to be the strongest Fire release jutsu and nothing in the story really implies that Samadhi is stronger. Amaterasu incinerated Danzo near instantly.


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## Alita (May 20, 2020)

Koji is likely stronger than delta so he stomps here. 

The fact that he is contending with 10% jigen also further makes me believe he would stomp since even at 10% jigen should still be way stronger than itachi.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> It has more ways to be applied than Amaterasu, but it's a weaker jutsu. I wouldn't even say it's easier to apply than Amaterasu.


How is it weaker exactly; Amaterasu got fodderized by Karma and True Fire is working


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## MShadows (May 20, 2020)

Jiraiya memes aside, KK being able to to take on 10% Jigen and even force him into Karma means that he’s beyond Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is it weaker exactly; Amaterasu got fodderized by Karma and True Fire is working


That's not Samadhi, those are flames that Koji summoned from some mountain. It simply comes down to matchup. Amaterasu is made of chakra, while those flames are not. And nothing implies that those flames are stronger than Amaterasu anyway.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Amaterasu is stated to be the strongest Fire release jutsu and nothing in the story really implies that Samadhi is stronger. Amaterasu incinerated Danzo near instantly.


that was before the fire of samihada (I think that was its name?lol) existed. 
Which, also got the same type of hype that no heavy rain or gust can turn it off. And it also burns through regeneration. 

Danzo's made his hit an illusion, that's why he disappeared from the Amaterasu, the same way he did from Susanoo's arrow.
Not that it burned him. 


it's just how Izanagi works...


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> That's not Samadhi, those are flames that Koji summoned from some mountain. It simply comes down to matchup. Amaterasu is made of chakra, while those flames are not. And nothing implies that those flames are stronger than Amaterasu anyway.


Yes they are; it’s just a translation issue I guarantee you. It’s the same Flame Summoning Jutsu. The Flames are better as they have more delivery methods and can’t be absorbed. 

Now why is Amaterasu better you tell me


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But we know that Naruto using COR is not even fraction of his full power..
> 
> If the man went BM avatar and used TBB FRS on her, then sure, she's a God Tier threat.
> 
> ...



So Naruto lies for no reason? See this is your problem you ignore the narrative the author is pushing out.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes they are; it’s just a translation issue I guarantee you. It’s the same Flame Summoning Jutsu. The Flames are better as they have more delivery methods and can’t be absorbed.
> 
> Now why is Amaterasu better you tell me


they are not the same, and it's not a translation issue either. @OrganicDinosaur stated that the Kanji is different



Which makes sense as well, since Boruto was able to absorb that fire jutsu beforehand when Koji used it on Konohamaru.
Heck, even Jigen absorbed it in this chapter when Koji used the frogs for it...


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## Perfect Susano (May 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes they are; it’s just a translation issue I guarantee you. It’s the same Flame Summoning Jutsu. The Flames are better as they have more delivery methods and can’t be absorbed.
> 
> Now why is Amaterasu better you tell me


The flames used against Jigen were summoned via kuchiyose.

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed*




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed* 




They are not Samadhi

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed*




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed*




Which was absorbed by Karma

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed*






Hussain said:


> that was before the fire of samihada (I think that was its name?lol) existed.
> Which, also got the same type of hype that no heavy rain or gust can turn it off. And it also burns through regeneration.
> Danzo's made his hit an illusion, that's why he disappeared from the Amaterasu, the same way he did from Susanoo's arrow.
> Not that it burned him.
> it's just how Izanagi works...


He was incinerated

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed*



Danzo doesn't respawn until the lower left panel.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> The flames used against Jigen were summoned via kuchiyose.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Fair enough seems like you guys are right then. With that said it seems like Koji just has the ability to summon flames through markings; and I still see Summoning Hell Flames as better then Amaterasu as they can’t be absorbed and have a more useful delivery method


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## MShadows (May 20, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Why is anyone answering to Turrin in a "Itachi vs ... " thread?
> He's been a well known Itachi hater/troller *for more than a decade* (cf his threads about konan being stronger than Itachi or about how Edo Itachi would get trolled by both Naruto and Killer bee before their fight)


How do you know that? You joined last year.


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## Marvel (May 20, 2020)

MShadows said:


> How do you know that? You joined last year.


People sell themselves out all the time.


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## Shazam (May 20, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> The flames used against Jigen were summoned via kuchiyose.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I dont see how that makes Amaterasu better though. If karma was there the same happens. We see armor platted samurai be saved by sand against Amaterasu


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## Itachi36 (May 20, 2020)

MShadows said:


> How do you know that? You joined last year.



Work on your imagination, you'll find the answer.


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## MShadows (May 21, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Work on your imagination, you'll find the answer.


Who are you really underneath that pictureless avatar?


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## Altiora Night (May 21, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But we know that Naruto using COR is not even fraction of his full power..
> 
> If the man went BM avatar and used TBB FRS on her, then sure, she's a God Tier threat.
> 
> ...


He didn’t use COR, he used CCOR, Chōchōōdama Rasengan, his biggest Rasengan as of yet.

Also, when Naruto got angry and serious, this happened:


*Spoiler*: __ 












The pictures are pretty self-explanatory if you ask me.

Naruto resorted to take advantage of her absorption limit, and this affected Delta’s vision and her shared vision with her drone. Taking advantage of that, Naruto then launched the *CCOR* at him to defeat her.

I suppose there’s nothing left for me to add.


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## MHA massive fan (May 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is it weaker exactly; Amaterasu got fodderized by Karma and True Fire is working


As did true fire 
It had no effect and was fodderized by karma 
You subjective reading ?


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## Gulash (May 21, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I dont see how that makes Amaterasu better though. If karma was there the same happens. We see armor platted samurai be saved by sand against Amaterasu


It always seemed to me that while amaterasu was said it can burn anything,that it does not burn that fast.That is unless the caster keeps focusing.Then it burns very fast but i quess that just keep puting strain on the eye and maybe also keeps depleting users chakra more.
It had been shown to work on that principle if you look at all examples.


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## t0xeus (May 21, 2020)

Shazam said:


> So Naruto lies for no reason? See this is your problem you ignore the narrative the author is pushing out.


It's not a lie.

Getting serious however does not mean using full power, or anywhere near it, like you're trying to paint it as.

You're basically saying that if Madara says he is serious, then kills someone using Katon, that his opponent is Founder-tier since he got Madara "serious".


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## t0xeus (May 21, 2020)

Goku said:


> He didn’t use COR, he used CCOR, Chōchōōdama Rasengan, his biggest Rasengan as of yet.
> 
> Also, when Naruto got angry and serious, this happened:
> 
> ...


Cool. CCOR then.

CQC scenes aren't impressive, he was moving at speeds where even Boruto, Himawari and Kawaki were able to keep up.

We even have Kawaki verbally confirming that Naruto is levels ahead of Delta and is fighting in a way to get her to do what he wants.


So that just paints Delta in even worse picture.

Naruto not moving at full speed using just regular taijutsu can still clown her like that.


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## blk (May 21, 2020)

Naruto is stronger than Delta, sure. 

But the difference between them is nowhere near what some of you seem to think it is. 

If Naruto was so much stronger than her that he could just lol-blitz stomp her, the fight would have never happened in the first place.
He would have just blitz'd and hit her unconscious.

But it's clear that, despite Naruto's superiority, it's not like there was an insane stats difference or anything like that.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2020)

blk said:


> Naruto is stronger than Delta, sure.
> 
> But the difference between them is nowhere near what some of you seem to think it is.
> 
> ...


There is virtually no physical speed stat difference between most Naruto characters, so this doesn’t tell us much beyond Delta being able to deal RSM Physical strength, meaning she is quite durable. When it comes to the rest Delta countered Ninjutsu, up to the point where it starts being dangerous for the village, so that made it tough. Delta is a tier or more away from Naruto though if he’s going all out with TBB and such


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## blk (May 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There is virtually no physical speed stat difference between most Naruto characters, so this doesn’t tell us much beyond Delta being able to deal RSM Physical strength, meaning she is quite durable. When it comes to the rest Delta countered Ninjutsu, up to the point where it starts being dangerous for the village, so that made it tough. Delta is a tier or more away from Naruto though if he’s going all out with TBB and such



Yeah i agree with that.

I wrote the post referring to those who say that somehow in a real fight Naruto can blitz her no diff or something similar.

Or those that use the fact that Naruto wasn't going all out as an excuse to claim that any strong character could, again, simply blitz/overpower Delta very easily in cqc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 21, 2020)

blk said:


> Yeah i agree with that.
> 
> I wrote the post referring to those who say that somehow in a real fight Naruto can blitz her no diff or something similar.
> 
> Or those that use the fact that Naruto wasn't going all out as an excuse to claim that any strong character could, again, simply blitz/overpower Delta very easily in cqc.


Agree with you there then


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## Yumi Zoro (May 21, 2020)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Kaguya>Isshiki is what I got from this. She beat his ass to near death and he's just now resurfacing



Isshiki gonna catch her on day


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## Yumi Zoro (May 21, 2020)

Me: 

Isshiki sama Everyone IS moking the L you took from Kaguya and they Say you are too weak.

Isshiki:

Give me at best ten years to Come back, they are Gonna regret those words.

Me: 

Yes, My Lord and Savior.


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## ShadowBlade77 (Jun 3, 2020)

As of now, I would say the outcome of this fight hinges on wheter Koji (as a cyborg) is susceptible to genjutsu. 

If yes, then Itachi should win via Tsukuyomi. 
If no, then Koji should win. His summoned flames bypass Susanoo, and trading blows with weakened Jigen is still better than trading blows with half assed, weakened KCM Naruto.


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