# Rank these characters in terms of striking strength



## Kyu (Jul 11, 2014)

Tsunade
8th Gated Gai
Ei
Rikudo Sage Naruto
Initial Stage Juubi 
100% Kurama
Sakura
Sage Mode Jiraiya
V2 Bee
Butterfly Mode Chouji


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2014)

Gai
RSM Naruto ? ~ Juubi
Kurama 
Tsuande ~ Sakura 
Choji 
V2 Bee
SM Jirayia ~ Ay


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## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

8th Gate Gai
RS Naruto - Juubi?
Kurama
BM Choji
Tsunade - Sakura?
V2 Bee
V2 Ei
SM J- Man


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 11, 2014)

8th Gated Gai
Rikudo Sage Naruto
Initial Stage Juubi
100% Kurama
Tsunade
Sakura
Butterfly Mode Chouji
V2 Bee
Sage Mode Jiraiya
A


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## ueharakk (Jul 11, 2014)

im assuming pure force their punch can inflict, not all that point of contact or type of damage stuff.

1) RSM Naruto w/ 5 tails power
2) 8th Gated Gai EE single punch
3) Initial stage Juubi
4) BM chouji
5) 100% Kurama
6) V2 Bee (lariat)/Sakura
8) Tsunade
9) Ei max shunshin punch
10) SM Jiraiya


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 11, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Tsunade
> 8th Gated Gai
> Ei
> Rikudo Sage Naruto
> ...



1. Rikudo Sage Naruto using boiling chakra strength/8th gate guy
2. Initial stage juubi
3. 100% kurama
4. Butterfly mode choji
5. Sakura/Tsunade
6. V2 Bee
7. A
8. SM jiraiya


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## Ether (Jul 11, 2014)

1.) Rikudo Sage Naruto
2.) 8th Gated Gai
3.) Initial Stage Juubi
4.) 100% Kurama
5.) Tsunade
6.) Butterfly Mode Chouji
7.) V2 Bee
8.) Sage Mode Jiraiya
9.) Ay
10.) Sakura


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 11, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> 1.) Rikudo Sage Naruto
> 2.) 8th Gated Gai
> 3.) Initial Stage Juubi
> 4.) 100% Kurama
> ...


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## Ether (Jul 11, 2014)

Well, I do know that Sakura can punch the ground with a great amount of strength from her panel with the Juubi fodder but Jiraiya did punch the Ram through all those steel pipes dozens of meters away from him.


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## Thunder (Jul 11, 2014)

1. Naruto (Dat Kokuō).

No one else matters.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 11, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> Well, I do know that Sakura can punch the ground with a great amount of strength from her panel with the Juubi fodder but Jiraiya did punch the Ram through all those steel pipes dozens of meters away from him.



Sakura's chakra enhanced blows according to certain characters is on level or better than tsunade's. The same tsunade who can obliterate bodies with one punch(jiraiya could only damage someone's eyes) and casually crack up EMS susanoo ribcages(that was fending off naruto's ultra big ball rasengan's for a bit).

Jiraiya's boss summon tossing feats don't really compare to that nor does wrecking plain steel. Naruto's KCM clones can casually block steel swords yet he said V1 A punch felt super heavy and strong. Certain translations even have kcm naruto saying the match would be over if he took a clean hit from A(naruto took a clean hit from boiling steam powered han so...).


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## ueharakk (Jul 11, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Jiraiya's boss summon tossing feats don't really compare to that nor does wrecking plain steel.


Jiraiya didn't toss that boss summon, he most likely used a technique considering whatever he did sliced off one of the ram's horns.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Naruto's KCM clones can casually block steel swords yet he said V1 A punch felt super heavy and strong. Certain translations even have kcm naruto saying the match would be over if he took a clean hit from A(naruto took a clean hit from boiling steam powered han so...).


1 tailed Han's kick was more powerful than any of Ei's hits we've seen, bee couldn't even stop naruto's momentum after the hit, and the force ended up dragging both of them through the earth to the point they created a small trench.


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2014)

Why do people have Choji above Tsuande ?


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## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

Because he stalemated the GM for a decent time which was able to lolstop Kitsuchi's mountain sandwhich with it;s hands.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Jiraiya didn't toss that boss summon, he most likely used a technique considering whatever he did sliced off one of the ram's horns.


Noted. I did not even realize a horn got cut off but i guess that rules it out as being pure taijutsu(jiraiya has not chakra flow enhancing taijutsu to make something like that happen to my knowledge).




> 1 tailed Han's kick was more powerful than any of Ei's hits we've seen, bee couldn't even stop naruto's momentum after the hit, and the force ended up dragging both of them through the earth to the point they created a small trench.



Well i was going off naruto reactions and what he said. Going off destruction is not the only way to determine strength(A did shatter a mini cliff when he connected his V2 punch with it though). But yeah just by looking at it han looked far stronger. Seeing the hype strength gobi gives a jin also pretty much sets it at the top in whatever tier it's strength is used in(god tier naruto, high tiers han you get it).


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## ueharakk (Jul 11, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Well i was going off naruto reactions and what he said. Going off destruction is not the only way to determine strength(A did shatter a mini cliff when he connected his V2 punch with it though). But yeah just by looking at it han looked far stronger. Seeing the hype strength gobi gives a jin also pretty much would set it at whatever tier it's strength is used in(god tier naruto, high tiers han you get it).


true it's not all about destruction, it's half about the destruction and half about the destruction happening while bee (who overpowered RnY Ei) is there trying to slow naruto down.

More things that would sell it would be that it was 1 tailed Han using steam release that kicked naruto while *KCM Naruto gave base Han strength hype.*
*
Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 11, 2014)

Naruto
8th Gated Gai 
Butterfly Mode Chouji 
Tsunade
Sakura
V2 Bee 
Sage Mode Jiraiya  
Ei_


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## trance (Jul 12, 2014)

1. Red Gate Gai
2. Current Naruto

_-Large Gap-_

3. Initial Stage Juubi

_-Smaller Gap-_

4. 100% Kurama

_-Large Gap-_

5. Butterfly Mode Choji/Tsunade
6. Sakura

_-Smaller Gap-_

7. V2 Bee
8. Ei
9. SM Jiraiya


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## ARGUS (Jul 12, 2014)

Juubi
8th gate guy
RSM Naruto
Kyuubi
V2 Bee
Tsunade 
A 
Sakura
SM Jiraiya
Choji


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## Jad (Jul 12, 2014)

Red gate Gai literally craps on everyone's feats. With one thrust of his fist he made an entire underground city. However, as impressive as that is, Madara states the ACTUAL flesh-meat close fisted 'in your jaw retirement from life' punch, is deadlier than the resultant air streams......That says soooo much. I mean what else do you guys need? A bigger hole....


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 12, 2014)

1 - 8 gate Gai

gap

2 - Juubi
3 - Kurama
4 - Tsunade
5 - V2 B / Ei
6 - Sakura
7 - Jman

Naruto would probably fall somewhere around Juubi/ Kurama tier but he is featless as of now.



ueharakk said:


> true it's not all about destruction, it's half about the destruction and half about the destruction happening while bee (who overpowered RnY Ei) is there trying to slow naruto down.
> 
> More things that would sell it would be that it was 1 tailed Han using steam release that kicked naruto while *KCM Naruto gave base Han strength hype.*
> *
> Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*




Based on those scans Ei comes off significantly stronger.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 12, 2014)

As far as I'm concerned, nothing suggests that the strength Kokuo grants to Naruto/Han puts them anywhere _near_ the physical strength showcased by Maito Gai. Naruto managed to overpower Kaguya - who isn't very physically strong in the first instance, and Han kicked Naruto and sent him flying, something that many other physically strong fighters can replicate or exceed in power (Jiraiya says Tsunade _knocked him 100 meters away_, for example).

I think Kokuo's power up is being over-rated.​​


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## Dr. White (Jul 12, 2014)

Jad said:


> Red gate Gai literally craps on everyone's feats. With one thrust of his fist he made an entire underground city. However, as impressive as that is, Madara states the ACTUAL flesh-meat close fisted 'in your jaw retirement from life' punch, is deadlier than the resultant air streams......That says soooo much. I mean what else do you guys need? A bigger hole....



There is 1 in which who you forget is greater than Gai


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## Ghost (Jul 12, 2014)

Guy
Naruto
Juubi
Kurama
Sakura
Tsunade
A
Bee
Chouji
Jiraiya

edit. disgusting chouji wank


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## ueharakk (Jul 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto would probably fall somewhere around Juubi/ Kurama tier but he is featless as of now.


*lol
*




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Based on those scans Ei comes off significantly stronger.


right because making naruto skid on the ground with a hit > sending naruto and 1 tailed bee through the ground with enough force to make a trench.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> As far as I'm concerned, nothing suggests that the strength Kokuo grants to Naruto/Han puts them anywhere _near_ the physical strength showcased by Maito Gai. Naruto managed to overpower Kaguya - who isn't very physically strong in the first instance,​



Kaguya isn't very physically strong, really?  When *mindless Juubito can bust out of SM Hashirama's gates* that restrained the jubii, *can just run through EMS Sasuke's susanoo,* and when *naruto in base showcases insane striking strength?*

And it's not just overpowering kaguya, it's overpowering her and her chakra punch, chakra arms far more powerful than *the ones that tore apart the hokage's barrier *and created *a massive shockwave upon impact.*



Godaime Tsunade said:


> and Han kicked Naruto and sent him flying, something that many other physically strong fighters can replicate or exceed in power (Jiraiya says Tsunade _knocked him 100 meters away_, for example).


 Han didn't just 'kick naruto and send him flying', he kicked naruto, 1 tailed bee grabbed him and tried to stop his momentum, yet they both got sent flying* through the earth* with enough force to create a trench.  Bee is someone known for having *extreme physical strength* himself even in base, and yet that still happens to him when he wasn't even the one who got hit.  No one below Sakura or Tsunade have a shot at replicating that kind of feat.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think Kokuo's power up is being over-rated.


​Not when you are using someone like Han using only 1 tails of Kokuo's power in order to scale how someone like RSM Naruto would get powered up by the full power of the beast.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 12, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Kaguya isn't very physically strong, really?  When *mindless Juubito can bust out of SM Hashirama's gates* that restrained the jubii, *can just run through EMS Sasuke's susanoo,* and when *naruto in base showcases insane striking strength?*



I wouldn't call that ' insane ' striking strength from Base Naruto. Good striking strength yes, but let's not pretend that it's as great as the physical blows everyone else on the list can deliver. Jinchuuriki Obito didn't bust out of Hashirama's Myoujinmon using raw physical strength, he used his chakra to do  so (evident by the fact that it's flaring on his back). More than likely he used chakra arms to destroy the Myoujinmon, because he used them to destroy the barrier that the four Hokage had set-up immediately afterwards, with his back flaring up in the same fashion as before [1] 

Obito smashing through Sasuke's Susano'o is definitely an impressive strength feat though, I cannot contest that. However, even _base_ Obito possesses pretty impressive strength, able to one handedly _block Suigetsu's Kubikiribōchō_ without any difficulty or injury and man-handle and strangle an ANBU guard to death [1] Even as a young boy, before his body had adapted to Hashirama's DNA, he was capable of _shattering parts of walls_ with just his fist. It only stands to reason that a fully grown Obito could perform even greater feats than that. With the Juubi's chakra augmenting his already impressive strength, it makes sense that he could shatter Sasuke's V1 ribcage Susano'o using both of his arms, but it doesn't mean Kaguya could do the same thing.

I'm not saying Kaguya doesn't have _any_ notable physical strength - that obviously isn't the case since she was blocking Naruto's blows. However she isn't as physically strong as the people on this list, and has specifically been cited as weaker in the taijutsu department.



> And it's not just overpowering kaguya, it's overpowering her and her chakra punch, chakra arms far more powerful than *the ones that tore apart the hokage's barrier *and created *a massive shockwave upon impact.*



In your defence, I didn't read the scan of Kaguya and Naruto's taijutsu exchange properly. I didn't realise there was a chakra arm enveloping Kaguya's fist, so yeah, it would stand to reason that her strike had significantly more force behind it.

That said, I'm still not sure if her strike was as great as you're giving it credit for. For a start, there is only one arm, not several as there were when Obito smashed the Myoujinmon and tore down the Hokage's barrier. Secondly, there wasn't very much momentum behind Kaguya's blow, evident by the fact that the chakra arm erected from her fist had only just extended towards Naruto by the time he throws his counter strike (compared to _these chakra arms_, for example). _Lastly_, the chakra arm hadn't even clenched into a fist, it was an open palm suggesting that Kaguya may have been trying to _grab_ Naruto rather than strike him. We know for a fact that at that point in the battle, she wasn't trying to kill him, so this is entirely plausible.



> are you serious?  Han didn't just 'kick naruto and send him flying', he kicked naruto, 1 tailed bee grabbed him and tried to stop his momentum, yet they both got sent flying* through the earth* with enough force to create a trench.  Bee is someone known for having *extreme physical strength* himself even in base, and yet that still happens to him when he wasn't even the one who got hit.  No one below Sakura or Tsunade have a shot at replicating that kind of feat.



Bee used a small Hachibi tentacle to try and stop him, not his own physical strength which is vastly superior. The tentacle couldn't stop him and Bee got dragged along. Han landed a _direct hit_ which had _significant_ momentum behind it, and that was his result. I'd guarantee that others could do something similar. For instance, in base, and without nearly as much momentum as Han, Ei was able to smack Muu so hard that he smashes into one of Madara's mokuton branches, knocking him out, and seemingly snapping the branch in two upon contact [2] [3] Heck, a RNY Ei's Liger Bomb hits so hard that it creates a giant crater in the ground that even creates violent shock waves in the aftermath. 



> Obviously not when you are using someone like Han using only 1 tails of Kokuo's power in order to scale how someone like RSM Naruto would get powered up by the full power of the beast.



You were the one to bring Han up in this thread, I was addressing that by pointing out that he isn't worthy of a place on this specific tier list.​​


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## ueharakk (Jul 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I wouldn't call that ' insane ' striking strength from Base Naruto. Good striking strength yes, but let's not pretend that it's as great as the physical blows everyone else on the list can deliver.​



when you consider he hit madara first and then the tree, it's greater than everyone's physical blows bar Gai's as* the force of the hit that travels through the target is greatly reduced depending on how durable the target is.*  Unless of course, sakura's punches are tiers beyond tiers more powerful than tsunade's.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jinchuuriki Obito didn't bust out of Hashirama's Myoujinmon using raw physical strength, he used his chakra to do  so (evident by the fact that it's flaring on his back). More than likely he used chakra arms to destroy the Myoujinmon, because he used them to destroy the barrier that the four Hokage had set-up immediately afterwards, with his back flaring up in the same fashion as before [1]


The flares on obito's back are him about to activate the chakra arms.....



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Obito smashing through Sasuke's Susano'o is definitely an impressive strength feat though, I cannot contest that. However, even _base_ Obito possesses pretty impressive strength, able to one handedly _block Suigetsu's Kubikiribōchō_ without any difficulty or injury and man-handle and strangle an ANBU guard to death [1] Even as a young boy, before his body had adapted to Hashirama's DNA, he was capable of _shattering parts of walls_ with just his fist. It only stands to reason that a fully grown Obito could perform even greater feats than that. With the Juubi's chakra augmenting his already impressive strength, it makes sense that he could shatter Sasuke's V1 ribcage Susano'o using both of his arms, but it doesn't mean Kaguya could do the same thing.


wait, you're seriously going to argue that Kaguya who's way more powerful than madara who in turn is way more powerful than mindless juubito can't do the same thing that juubito could do?  if you want to talk about what obito was capable of before becoming the JJ, Kaguya is using madara's body as a base, and madara before becoming the JJ was knocking around SM Naruto (who's way stronger than alive obito) in base, and then Madara got sennin mode on top of that.  So even if kaguya's Juubi powers were exactly equal to juubito's, she's still be tiers above him in strength.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm not saying Kaguya doesn't have _any_ notable physical strength - that obviously isn't the case since she was blocking Naruto's blows. However she isn't as physically strong as the people on this list, and has specifically been cited as weaker in the taijutsu department.


...naruto said that taijutsu is the way to go against her because she'll just end up doing what she did to sasuke's PS and can absorb any ninjutsu.  That doesn't say anything about her taijutsu being weak.  She's far more powerful than anyone on this list bar Gai.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> That said, I'm still not sure if her strike was as great as you're giving it credit for. For a start, there is only one arm, not several as there were when Obito smashed the Myoujinmon and tore down the Hokage's barrier. Secondly, there wasn't very much momentum behind Kaguya's blow, evident by the fact that the chakra arm erected from her fist had only just extended towards Naruto by the time he throws his counter strike (compared to _these chakra arms_, for example). _Lastly_, the chakra arm hadn't even clenched into a fist, it was an open palm suggesting that Kaguya may have been trying to _grab_ Naruto rather than strike him. We know for a fact that at that point in the battle, she wasn't trying to kill him, so this is entirely plausible.


Kaguya had the full speed of her flight behind her chakra arm, and chakra arms don't require momentum as their extension is powerful in their own right, that's how juubito broke the barrier.  Sure open hand would do less damage, but it wouldn't reduce the power of the strike, naruto still has to overpower the same force as a fist in order to get through and hit her.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Bee used a small Hachibi tentacle to try and stop him, not his own physical strength which is vastly superior. The tentacle couldn't stop him and Bee got dragged along. Han landed a _direct hit_ which had _significant_ momentum behind it, and that was his result.


cmon now.  Sure bee used the tentacle to grab naruto, but bee's using his own physical strength to resist the movement as it's bee's body that's making contact with the ground and failing to stop Naruto.   He wouldn't have faired any better if he grabbed naruto with his arms.

Also, what is bee's tentacles being vastly weaker than say his arm strength based on?




Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'd guarantee that others could do something similar. For instance, in base, and without nearly as much momentum as Han, Ei was able to smack Muu so hard that he smashes into one of Madara's mokuton branches, knocking him out, and seemingly snapping the branch in two upon contact [2] [3]


how in the world does that even begin to compare to what han did to Naruto AND Bee when bee in base overpowers Max RnY Ei?  how does that even compare when RnY Ei punches KCM Naruto and naruto only skids or when he punches Edo madara and he just lands.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Heck, a RNY Ei's Liger Bomb hits so hard that it creates a giant crater in the ground that even creates violent shock waves in the aftermath.


Which is not even above SM Naruto's standards considering he can *throw boss summons into the clouds,* and boss summons *make even larger craters in the ground when they land.* *[1]*





Godaime Tsunade said:


> You were the one to bring Han up in this thread, I was addressing that by pointing out that he isn't worthy of a place on this specific tier list.


​  You haven't even given a positive argument for why that would be the case.  All you've done is try and demerit han's feat, but you've made no comparison between what he  was capable of doing vs what other people would be capable of doing.  Put SM Jiraiya or Ei in han's place and have him kick/punch KCM NAruto and then have bee grab naruto.  The same thing doesn't happen, Bee stops naruto's momentum in both cases without difficulty, in jiraiya's case naruto probably won't even travel far enough to reach bee.

And the point of Han is to show how much kokuo's ability amplifies the user's strength.  *KCM NAruto was able to block base Han's hit,* yet was overpowered when he started using steam, and then 1 tailed han delivers hits like what we've seen.  If Han's strikes get amplified so much in just his one-tailed form, RSM Naruto's strikes being amplified by Kokuo's full ability allowing naruto to produce hits on par or greater than one EE is not overating in the least.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 5 - V2 B / Ei
> 6 - Sakura



Sakura was stated to be equal if not stronger than Tsunade.

Tsunade >>> Ay in strength.

Also, this feat vastly exceeds anything demonstrated by Ay.




> Naruto would probably fall somewhere around Juubi/ Kurama tier but he is featless as of now.



How on earth is Naruto falling in between the Ten and Nine-Tails when he was explicitly shown matching Kaguya in physical strength? You know, the same Kaguya who is miles above Jinchuriki Madara, who is miles above Jinchuriki Obito, who in turn is leagues above his uncontrolled self which casually obliterated *Sage Art: Gate of the Great God* which all ten of the Ten-Tails' appendages failed to even budge?

Are you serious with this?




Godaime Tsunade said:


> With the Juubi's chakra augmenting his already impressive strength, it makes sense that he could shatter Sasuke's V1 ribcage Susano'o using both of his arms, but it doesn't mean Kaguya could do the same thing.



Oh my God.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 12, 2014)

1. 8th Gate Gai
2. Juubi
3. 100% Kyuubi
4. Giant Butterfly Choji
5. Sakura
6. Tsunade
7. V2 Killer B
8. A
9. Rikudou Sage Naruto
10. Sage Mode Jiraiya


It's difficult to rank these shinobi properly when some of them hardly have any feats.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *lol
> *


that looks pretty mediocre.



> right because making naruto skid on the ground with a hit > sending naruto and 1 tailed bee through the ground with enough force to make a trench.


I said based on those scans. 

Both A and Han hit Naruto in mid air, in one instance Naruto landed on the ground and skidded through the surface before he could come to a full stop. That means he used his legs to absorb the blow. On the other, Naruto landed on a tree branch without any skid marks.

A's punch >> Han's punch.

Han sending Naruto with a kick is different as a kick is logically stronger than a punch and Naruto didn't block it.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Sakura was stated to be equal if not stronger than Tsunade.
> 
> Tsunade >>> Ay in strength.
> 
> Also, this feat vastly exceeds anything demonstrated by Ay.



Yeah I forgot about that. My mind can't store anything Sakura related apparently


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## ueharakk (Jul 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> that looks pretty mediocre.


if it looks pretty mediocre, I guess a lot of shinobi should be able to replicate that feat then right?  So why don't you go ahead and list who you think can do that to Kaguya and explain why.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I said based on those scans.
> 
> Both A and Han hit Naruto in mid air, in one instance Naruto landed on the ground and skidded through the surface before he could come to a full stop. That means he used his legs to absorb the blow. On the other, Naruto landed on a tree branch without any skid marks.
> 
> A's punch >> Han's punch.


Bee was helping to stop naruto's momentum with his tentacle, and holding on to the tree with another, and they were sent a much further distance than Naruto did against Ei.

Ei also punched Naruto down which means gravity added to the momentum of his hit unlike han's, and this is further proven by *how little naruto slides later*.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Han sending Naruto with a kick is different as a kick is logically stronger than a punch and Naruto didn't block it.


A kick isn't necessarily stronger than a punch.  A kick CAN be stronger than a punch just like a punch can be stronger than a kick. 

What does naruto not blocking it have anything to do with how much power the hit sent him with?  Naruto was in the air when Ei hit him, it doesn't matter if he blocked or took the attack to the face, he still gets sent the same distance.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> if it looks pretty mediocre, I guess a lot of shinobi should be able to replicate that feat then right?  So why don't you go ahead and list who you think can do that to Kaguya and explain why.


Kaguya has average weight. Sending her flying with a punch should be possible for nearly all heavy hitters.
Top tiers would send her to the moon.




> Ei also punched Naruto down which means gravity added to the momentum of his hit unlike han's, and this is further proven by *how little naruto slides later*.


Not necessarily. He punched him from above but his punch wasn't vertical. Naruto was skidding on a horizontal path.
Naruto sliding less can be explained by A not hitting as hard. It doesn't discard the previous feat eitherway.



> A kick isn't necessarily stronger than a punch.  A kick CAN be stronger than a punch just like a punch can be stronger than a kick.



I think a full powered jumping kick to the face trumps anything a punch can do power-wise.

Your leg muscles are stronger than your arm muscles and your legs are heavier than your arms. Also Kicks usually use more of your bodies movement, thus it generates more momentum.



> What does naruto not blocking it have anything to do with how much power the hit sent him with?  Naruto was in the air when Ei hit him, it doesn't matter if he blocked or took the attack to the face, he still gets sent the same distance.



Because blocking the hit allows you to absorb the impact with your muscles.
Ask a friend to push you with all his strenght and do not resist. And then ask him to do the same but this time block his attempt and both times measure the distance you moved and compare them to each other.


Conclusion : A's punches sent Naruto sliding more than Han's did. His punches are more powerful than Han's. Naruto's reactions correlate with this.
Comparing Han's kick to A's punch isn't fair. At least, that alone isn't enough to prove that Han can hit harder than A.


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## Rocky (Jul 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kaguya has average weight. Sending her flying with a punch should be possible for nearly all heavy hitters.
> Top tiers would send her to the moon.



LOL@ people such as Sakura or B overpowering Kaguya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> LOL@ people such as Sakura or B overpowering Kaguya.



I don't recall any strength feats from Kaguya.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't recall any strength feats from Kaguya.



Her hair is > current Naruto's chakra hands
[1]


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## ueharakk (Jul 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kaguya has average weight. Sending her flying with a punch should be possible for nearly all heavy hitters.
> Top tiers would send her to the moon.


right because durability, physical strength, and power of the target in addition to kaguya's ability to fly has nothing to do with how far a person gets sent after an attack.

Because Naruto's punch didn't have to go through one of her chakra arms first before it could even make contact with her.

*Because 'base' naruto doesn't already have 'above mediocre' strength*





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not necessarily. He punched him from above but his punch wasn't vertical. Naruto was skidding on a horizontal path.
> Naruto sliding less can be explained by A not hitting as hard. It doesn't discard the previous feat eitherway.


*The manga blatantly shows Ei punching Naruto down.*  It might not have been a punch straight down, but wasn't anywhere nearing parallel to the ground.

If you want to argue Ei pulls his punches sometimes without any reason, then Han didn't punch his hardest when he hit Naruto either.  





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think a full powered jumping kick to the face trumps anything a punch can do power-wise.


Based on what?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your leg muscles are stronger than your arm muscles and your legs are heavier than your arms. Also Kicks usually use more of your bodies movement, thus it generates more momentum.


Irrelevant as punches don't use only arm muscles, being heavier is irrelevant to the power that the attack transfers to the target.   A kick CAN use more of the bodies other muscles, just like a puch CAN use more of the bodies muscles as well.  A kick can build up more momentum than a punch just like a punch can build up more momentum than a kick.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because blocking the hit allows you to absorb the impact with your muscles.
> Ask a friend to push you with all his strenght and do not resist. And then ask him to do the same but this time block his attempt and both times measure the distance you moved and compare them to each other.


Don't waste my time with examples you know are blatantly false.

The only reason you would move further 'while trying to resist' is because your legs touching the ground will buck the force your friend's push is applying to your body.  In every instance naruto was hit by Ei, he was airborne.  If you don't brace yourself with your legs, you're going to travel the same distance regardless if you block his push with your arms or not.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Conclusion : A's punches sent Naruto sliding more than Han's did. His punches are more powerful than Han's. Naruto's reactions correlate with this.
> Comparing Han's kick to A's punch isn't fair. At least, that alone isn't enough to prove that Han can hit harder than A.


False as you've straight up ignored:
- Naruto was sent further by Han's punch than Ei's
- *Bee was bracing Naruto with his tentacle* while NAruto was in midair against Ei's hits

Plus, Naruto's reactions to Han's strength despite going up against Ei's strength earlier would be positive evidence that Han's strength is greater.

Finally, comparing Han's kick to Ei's punch is fair unless you can show that Ei using that kind of kick would produce far less power than Ei using one of his punches.  

And what do you mean 'prove'?  If you set the bar for evidence high enough nothing can be 'proven', the guy who doesn't want something to be true will just keep on raising the standard of evidence, yet not bringing up any positive evidence for his own argument.

*IF Base bee overpowers RnY Ei*, there's no way Ei hits harder than Han when something *like this is going to happen to bee* especially when Bee isn't even the one who took the hit.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jul 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because blocking the hit allows you to absorb the impact with your muscles.
> Ask a friend to push you with all his strenght and do not resist. And then ask him to do the same but this time block his attempt and both times measure the distance you moved and compare them to each other.



Is this serious?

Blocking the hit doesn't counteract the force that's pushing your body, it prevents the impact from hurting *vulnerable areas* of your body like your chest, or perhaps your head. When Ay punched Naruto, the latter defending with his arms only ensured that he wasn't seriously hurt by the impact. The force of the punch, however, isn't slowed down any, because Naruto is in mid-air and therefore cannot slow himself down without any sort of foothold to do so.

Only when he actually landed could he mitigate the speed at which he was flying.

If someone pushes you, it doesn't matter if you're blocking or not. If you're not resisting, you'll get thrown exactly the same distance. You might lose your balance if you're just standing there with your arms flopping at your sides, but that's completely irrelevant.

*Anyone* can send even Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto in mid-air, flying, as long as they have enough strength to throw a person of average weight like him with a punch. Ay's punch wasn't impressive in that he blasted Naruto that far, but because Naruto flat-out told us he was strong. For your information, that also doesn't necessitate that Ay is stronger, let alone significantly so, than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto.

Just like the way he hyped up Han. *Base* Han, mind you.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> right because durability, physical strength, and power of the target in addition to kaguya's ability to fly has nothing to do with how far a person gets sent after an attack.
> 
> Because Naruto's punch didn't have to go through one of her chakra arms first before it could even make contact with her.
> 
> *Because 'base' naruto doesn't already have 'above mediocre' strength*



Not really. Only strength does. And Kaguya hasn't done anything noteworthy with it.

Also Madara blocked base Naruto's full powered punch with the tip of his rod while in terrible shape. Not sure how that is a good example either.



> *The manga blatantly shows Ei punching Naruto down.*  It might not have been a punch straight down, but wasn't anywhere nearing parallel to the ground.


If he was going down vertically, he would smash to the ground and stay there instead of sliding back. So despite the shitty angle, if you take their positioning and Naruto's landing into consideration it was close to a parallel landing. 



> If you want to argue Ei pulls his punches sometimes without any reason, then Han didn't punch his hardest when he hit Naruto either.


Only that han doesn't have any other examples of better punches, so no. That argument can't be applied to him.




> Based on what?


Common sense.



> Irrelevant


perfectly relevant.


> as punches don't use only arm muscles,


Of course. Just like a kick don't only use leg musles. But those muscle groups do factor in.



> being heavier is irrelevant to the power that the attack transfers to the target.


Perfectly relevant as momentum = velocity*mass



> A kick CAN use more of the bodies other muscles, just like a puch CAN use more of the bodies muscles as well.  A kick can build up more momentum than a punch just like a punch can build up more momentum than a kick.


Yes, A's punch generates more power than Konohomaru's kick. But we are comparing A's max power kick to A's max power punch here. Everybody knows the kick is more powerful.



> Don't waste my time with examples you know are blatantly false.


But its not.


> The only reason you would move further 'while trying to resist' is because your legs touching the ground will buck the force your friend's push is applying to your body.  In every instance naruto was hit by Ei, he was airborne.  If you don't brace yourself with your legs, you're going to travel the same distance regardless if you block his push with your arms or not.


Naruto was airborne initially and then he hit the ground after he was hit and was able to apply resistance.



> False as you've straight up ignored:
> - Naruto was sent further by Han's punch than Ei's


He wasn't sent further. Also he was in mid air and wasn't able to put any kind of resistance with his legs. And even then you don't see any skidmarks on the tree branch he lands. A's hits were visually and verbally more emphasized.



> - *Bee was bracing Naruto with his tentacle* while NAruto was in midair against Ei's hits


B was also in mid air and he was also being pushed back by the other Jin.



> Plus, Naruto's reactions to Han's strength despite going up against Ei's strength earlier would be positive evidence that Han's strength is greater.


Not really. If he was greater than A's which pretty much shocked Naruto, then Naruto'd feel a greater shock. Probably say something like "man he is stronger than Raikage." 
His reaction pretty much confirms that Han doesn't hit harder than A. At the very best case scenario his hits are equal to A's, but I highly doubt it, based on feats.



> Finally, comparing Han's kick to Ei's punch is fair unless you can show that Ei using that kind of kick would produce far less power than Ei using one of his punches.


Why would E's kick produce less power than his punches ? A's kick should be logically alot more powerful than his punches.



> And what do you mean 'prove'?  If you set the bar for evidence high enough nothing can be 'proven', the guy who doesn't want something to be true will just keep on raising the standard of evidence, yet not bringing up any positive evidence for his own argument.


I've compared their punches, A comes out on top.

Why would kick determine everything when A doesn't have a similar feat ? 

All I can say is, a guy who is hitting harder with his punches is bound to hit harder with his kicks as well, unless his proportions are completely off.



> *IF Base bee overpowers RnY Ei*, there's no way Ei hits harder than Han when something *like this is going to happen to bee* especially when Bee isn't even the one who took the hit.



Base B overpowering A was a plot moment. B hit A with the same lariat twice and A casually fended him off.
*like this is going to happen to bee*
B trying to block A with partial transformation tells everything you need to know about their strength difference. *like this is going to happen to bee*



ATastyMuffin said:


> Is this serious?
> 
> Blocking the hit doesn't counteract the force that's pushing your body, it prevents the impact from hurting *vulnerable areas* of your body like your chest, or perhaps your head. When Ay punched Naruto, the latter defending with his arms only ensured that he wasn't seriously hurt by the impact. The force of the punch, however, isn't slowed down any, because Naruto is in mid-air and therefore cannot slow himself down without any sort of foothold to do so.
> 
> ...



Are you serious ? 

Your stregnth is a counter force. So yes, you will resist the push if you are blocking it.
There is a reason why characters are thrown less when they block and get ragdolled when they don't.


----------



## RedChidori (Jul 14, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> 1.) Rikudo Sage Naruto
> 2.) 8th Gated Gai
> 3.) Initial Stage Juubi
> 4.) 100% Kurama
> ...



This .


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not really. Only strength does. And Kaguya hasn't done anything noteworthy with it.
> 
> Also Madara blocked base Naruto's full powered punch with the tip of his rod while in terrible shape. Not sure how that is a good example either.


Again, based on what does only strength matter?  Why does Kaguya not getting the opportunity to do something noteworthy have anything to do with how strong she is if given the opportunity?  

It's a good example because of the destruction it causes to the tree behind MAdara despite having to go through something as physically powerful and durable as JJ Madara.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If he was going down vertically, he would smash to the ground and stay there instead of sliding back. So despite the shitty angle, if you take their positioning and Naruto's landing into consideration it was close to a parallel landing.


Don't waste my time.  Naruto didn't go straight down to the ground in a straight line, but that doesn't mean he was punched parallel to the ground.  The scan clearly shows him being punched in the direction of the ground and not parallel to it, it would also be impossible or Ei to punch him parallel if Ei is above naruto when he punches him.

Their positioning absolutely favors my argument and not a parallel punch as Ei lands only about 5 meters away from where naruto made contact with the ground.  That either means Ei's hits are so weak that they can't even send Naruto flying 6 meters despite punching him from way above the ground or he punched naruto to the ground.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Only that han doesn't have any other examples of better punches, so no. That argument can't be applied to him.


Why does it even matter if han has any other examples of better punches?  If Ei for absolutely no reason pulls his punches sometimes and sometimes doesn't, then what's to say Han doesn't as well?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Common sense.


considering just stating 'common sense' without any reason isn't in any way shape or form a counterargument, you've just conceded that your assertion is based on nothing, that you have no argument for why it should be true, and therefore no reason for anyone to believe such is the case.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> perfectly relevant.
> 
> Of course. Just like a kick don't only use leg musles. But those muscle groups do factor in.


....which is why I keep on stating that a punch CAN be more powerful than a kick, while a kick CAN be more powerful than a punch.  Therefore what you've typed alone doesn't imply anything.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Perfectly relevant as momentum = velocity*mass


except if you're kicking or punching with the weight of your entire body behind the attack, then the mass of your leg or punch is irrelevant and the fact that the heavier a limb is, the less velocity it'll have if equal power is applied to it.  So like i said, just stating a leg is heavier than an arm implies nothing.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, A's punch generates more power than Konohomaru's kick. But we are comparing A's max power kick to A's max power punch here. Everybody knows the kick is more powerful.


When I made the statement you quoted, it was in the context of evaluating the same character doing both actions....



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto was airborne initially and then he hit the ground after he was hit and was able to apply resistance.


....um, no crap?  You stated that blocking, not resisting, but blocking a hit has something to do with the distance you get sent away in order to discredit Han's kick on KCM Naruto's face because Naruto didn't block the hit.  That's either false as taking a hit to the face or to the arms does nothing to the energy the hit transfers to your body and thus the momentum your body takes, or it's false via base bee grabbed KCM Naruto and applied resistance after naruto was hit, yet he and naruto were both sent exploding through the earth while nothing even close to that happens when Ei hits naruto.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wasn't sent further. Also he was in mid air and wasn't able to put any kind of resistance with his legs. And even then you don't see any skidmarks on the tree branch he lands. A's hits were visually and verbally more emphasized.


*He was sent further * vs *top right panel.*  You can also tell he was sent much further due to the fact that *they were punched out of the area that had been roasted by utakata's bubble blast.*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> B was also in mid air and he was also being pushed back by the other Jin.


no he wasn't, he was holding onto a tree with his tentacle, and the other jin had no where near the strength to push back base bee, especially when the attack she used isn't a strength enhancing one.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not really. If he was greater than A's which pretty much shocked Naruto, then Naruto'd feel a greater shock. Probably say something like "man he is stronger than Raikage."
> His reaction pretty much confirms that Han doesn't hit harder than A. At the very best case scenario his hits are equal to A's, but I highly doubt it, based on feats.


no, if he weaker than Ei, naruto wouldn't comment on his strength with surprise as it would have been something that he had dealt with already.  Unless of course you believe that naruto always makes direct comparisons between earlier foes and later ones who exceed them in physical attributes.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would E's kick produce less power than his punches ? A's kick should be logically alot more powerful than his punches.


not necessarily true as any punch isn't > any kick like any kick > any punch you have to show why the kick used is > the punch used.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've compared their punches, A comes out on top.
> 
> Why would kick determine everything when A doesn't have a similar feat ?


Because nothing you've brought to the table implies that if Ei kicked someone like Han did, that it would produce significantly more force than if Ei punched someone like Han did.  
Because Han's kick completely trumps Ei's implied hitting strength.
And because it was base han who punched naruto.

Also, you've just pulled a massive double standard here.  In response to the question whether kaguya has super strength or not, you stated she doesn't because 'she hasn't done anything noteworthy with her strength', yet here we see a complete 180 turn in your logic as you claim it's fallacious to compare Ei's hits to Han's kick because Ei didn't have the opportunity to kick like han did.  So on one hand you claim lack it's completely irrelevant whether a character had an opportunity to display their strength while on the otherhand you claim that a comparison can't be made because a character didn't get an opportunity to display their strength. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> All I can say is, a guy who is hitting harder with his punches is bound to hit harder with his kicks as well, unless his proportions are completely off.


Which is a completely dishonest generalization as all kicks aren't greater than all punches.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Base B overpowering A was a plot moment. B hit A with the same lariat twice and A casually fended him off.
> *they were punched out of the area that had been roasted by utakata's bubble blast.*
> B trying to block A with partial transformation tells everything you need to know about their strength difference. *they were punched out of the area that had been roasted by utakata's bubble blast.*


It was not plot, as that particular instance where bee overpowers Ei has far more relevance than those other instances due to how highlighted and significant it was. 

Bee using a partial transformation to block Ei is to soften the impact of Ei's fist, not to give him more strength to resist the attack as he'd go sliding the same distance regardless if his arm is partially transformed or not. 
B just didn't go all out with his earlier lariats against Ei, the first one was to slow Ei down so that Naruto could get by, the second was to set up the fist bump.  

Finally, even if we ignored all of what I just typed, bee absolutely would not get sent exploding through the earth an enormous distance as a result of simply trying to stop the momentum of one of Ei's strikes.  *Not when he can block Ei's hits without moving an inch.*


----------



## Arcana (Jul 14, 2014)

1. Red Gate Gai
2. Current Naruto
3. Initial Stage Juubi
4. 100% Kurama
5. Butterfly Mode Choji
6.Tsunade
7. Sakura
8. V2 Bee
9. Ei
10. SM Jiraiya


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Again, based on what does only strength matter?  Why does Kaguya not getting the opportunity to do something noteworthy have anything to do with how strong she is if given the opportunity?



Because blocking your opponent hit relies on your strength obviously.



> It's a good example because of the destruction it causes to the tree behind MAdara despite having to go through something as physically powerful and durable as JJ Madara.



Nah but Madara can block Naruto's hit with one arm with the tip of the black rod. I am not saying that Naruto doesn't hit hard, but lets be honest, that hit didn't pack anywhere near enough power to match Sakura's. Considering how fast he is, and the force of the hit is basically mass*velocity, then it means his physical strength is surely lower than of Sakura's.




> Don't waste my time.  Naruto didn't go straight down to the ground in a straight line, but that doesn't mean he was punched parallel to the ground.  The scan clearly shows him being punched in the direction of the ground and not parallel to it, it would also be impossible or Ei to punch him parallel if Ei is above naruto when he punches him.


I get it your time is very precious, that is why you sit here all day and type longass posts.

I am not saying that they were parallel, but the angle of the shot is misleading as when A jumped to meet Naruto, they are pretty much on the same level height-wise. So the gravity that you speak of isn't that big of an issue. Besides, unless the gravitational pull of Naruto world is much stronger than ours, then it wouldn't have much of an impact anyways, given their inhuman strength.



> Their positioning absolutely favors my argument and not a parallel punch as Ei lands only about 5 meters away from where naruto made contact with the ground.  That either means Ei's hits are so weak that they can't even send Naruto flying 6 meters despite punching him from way above the ground or he punched naruto to the ground.



Han didn't send Naruto flying a longer distance than that, even when NAruto had no ground to brace himself with.
I still don't see how this favors your argument.



> Why does it even matter if han has any other examples of better punches?  If Ei for absolutely no reason pulls his punches sometimes and sometimes doesn't, then what's to say Han doesn't as well?


Because we have liberty to say this because of the variety of A's punching feats. Han doesn't have any, how can you not say that it wasn't his strongest hit if we haven't seen any weaker or stronger ones ? 



> considering just stating 'common sense' without any reason isn't in any way shape or form a counterargument, you've just conceded that your assertion is based on nothing, that you have no argument for why it should be true, and therefore no reason for anyone to believe such is the case.


Because I was hoping that you'd have a bit of common sense and apparently you don't.
My bad, won't happen again.


> ....which is why I keep on stating that a punch CAN be more powerful than a kick, while a kick CAN be more powerful than a punch.  Therefore what you've typed alone doesn't imply anything.


Coming from the same person with all their strength being used ? No, a kick is always more powerful.




> except if you're kicking or punching with the weight of your entire body behind the attack, then the mass of your leg or punch is irrelevant and the fact that the heavier a limb is, the less velocity it'll have if equal power is applied to it.  So like i said, just stating a leg is heavier than an arm implies nothing.


which instance are you referring to ? And the mass ofthe moving limb will obviously factor in the equation.
And your leg muscles are stronger than your arm muscles so the power applied to it isn't equal.

Squats vs bench press. 



> When I made the statement you quoted, it was in the context of evaluating the same character doing both actions....


Well then you are absolutely wrong, as in that context a kick is more powerful than a punch.




> ....um, no crap?  You stated that blocking, not resisting, but blocking a hit has something to do with the distance you get sent away in order to discredit Han's kick on KCM Naruto's face because Naruto didn't block the hit.  That's either false as taking a hit to the face or to the arms does nothing to the energy the hit transfers to your body and thus the momentum your body takes, or it's false via base bee grabbed KCM Naruto and applied resistance after naruto was hit, yet he and naruto were both sent exploding through the earth while nothing even close to that happens when Ei hits naruto.



Your strength generates a counter force. If you are strong enough to block your opponents blow, obviously you won't get ragdolled.


> *He was sent further * vs *top right panel.*  You can also tell he was sent much further due to the fact that *they were punched out of the area that had been roasted by utakata's bubble blast.*


It definitely is a shorter distance than A sent him flying.




> no he wasn't, he was holding onto a tree with his tentacle, and the other jin had no where near the strength to push back base bee, especially when the attack she used isn't a strength enhancing one.


B is shown being pushed back after Yugito's attack, so it doesn't matter what you believe lol. 



> no, if he weaker than Ei, naruto wouldn't comment on his strength with surprise as it would have been something that he had dealt with already.  Unless of course you believe that naruto always makes direct comparisons between earlier foes and later ones who exceed them in physical attributes.


Being weaker than A doesn't equate to being weak. Han is still pretty strong. And Naruto took note of that. That is all. But his reaction seemed alot more extreme against A's hits. Which makes me believe Han doesn't hit as hard.




> not necessarily true as any punch isn't > any kick like any kick > any punch you have to show why the kick used is > the punch used.


We aren't discussing any kick to any punch here.
We are talking about kicks and punches coming from same strength tier.
So yes, a full powered kick > full powered punch.




> Because nothing you've brought to the table implies that if Ei kicked someone like Han did, that it would produce significantly more force than if Ei punched someone like Han did.
> Because Han's kick completely trumps Ei's implied hitting strength.
> And because it was base han who punched naruto.


A's punch depicted as being heavier than Han's pretty much implies that his kick would be stronger as well.




> Also, you've just pulled a massive double standard here.  In response to the question whether kaguya has super strength or not, you stated she doesn't because 'she hasn't done anything noteworthy with her strength', yet here we see a complete 180 turn in your logic as you claim it's fallacious to compare Ei's hits to Han's kick because Ei didn't have the opportunity to kick like han did.  So on one hand you claim lack it's completely irrelevant whether a character had an opportunity to display their strength while on the otherhand you claim that a comparison can't be made because a character didn't get an opportunity to display their strength.



Lol. No.
We know how hard A can hit with his punches. We can compare them to Han's punches because they were used on the same character. Then we can scale off his kick based on that.
I only said it isn't fair to compare A's punch that was blocked to Han's kick that wasn't blocked.

Kaguya on the other hand doesn't give us anything to work with.



> Which is a completely dishonest generalization as all kicks aren't greater than all punches.



... 



> It was not plot, as that particular instance where bee overpowers Ei has far more relevance than those other instances due to how highlighted and significant it was.


Yes, like he magically became strong enough to topple the dude who he couldn't a second ago.



> Bee using a partial transformation to block Ei is to soften the impact of Ei's fist, not to give him more strength to resist the attack as he'd go sliding the same distance regardless if his arm is partially transformed or not.


Transformed arm gives him more strength so he can block A's hits easier. This isn't rocket science. 



> B just didn't go all out with his earlier lariats against Ei, the first one was to slow Ei down so that Naruto could get by, the second was to set up the fist bump.


Conjecture.




> Finally, even if we ignored all of what I just typed, bee absolutely would not get sent exploding through the earth an enormous distance as a result of simply trying to stop the momentum of one of Ei's strikes.  *Not when he can block Ei's hits without moving an inch.*



Irrelevant, as two instances are nothing alike. 


I'll just drop this here and call it a day. It pretty much settles all the debates that are going on right now.

*Not when he can block Ei's hits without moving an inch.*

*Not when he can block Ei's hits without moving an inch.*

I am done here.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because blocking your opponent hit relies on your strength obviously.


The point flew right over your head didn't it?  I asked why kaguya not getting the opportunity to display her strength like other characters would be evidence that she isn't physically strong?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah but Madara can block Naruto's hit with one arm with the tip of the black rod. I am not saying that Naruto doesn't hit hard, but lets be honest, that hit didn't pack anywhere near enough power to match Sakura's. Considering how fast he is, and the force of the hit is basically mass*velocity, then it means his physical strength is surely lower than of Sakura's.


Wait what?  Why would someone as powerful as JJ MAdara not be able to block Sakura's hit with equal or less force getting through him and hitting the tree behind?  *Sakura's punch couldn't even budge a limbo clone.*




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I get it your time is very precious, that is why you sit here all day and type longass posts.
> 
> I am not saying that they were parallel, but the angle of the shot is misleading as when A jumped to meet Naruto, they are pretty much on the same level height-wise. So the gravity that you speak of isn't that big of an issue. Besides, unless the gravitational pull of Naruto world is much stronger than ours, then it wouldn't have much of an impact anyways, given their inhuman strength.


Since none of this contradicts the reasoning that Ei would have only punched naruto a couple of meters if he punched him parallel to the ground, and therefore had to have punched him with a lot of force down, then I'm guessing you agree with that.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because we have liberty to say this because of the variety of A's punching feats. Han doesn't have any, how can you not say that it wasn't his strongest hit if we haven't seen any weaker or stronger ones ?


How can YOU say it WAS his strongest if we haven't seen any weaker or stronger ones and if characters for no apparent reason pull there punches?  Answer: you can't.  Unless you give some kind of reason for Ei pulling his punches, there's nothing that suggests han couldn't have pulled his punches as well.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because I was hoping that you'd have a bit of common sense and apparently you don't.
> My bad, won't happen again.


again, that's a concession on your part since you've given no evidence or reason to believe what you've asserted as 'common sense'.  I could call anything I want common sense, does that mean what I call common sense is correct? There was a time in human history when the earth was flat was common sense, does that mean that even if something is 'common sense' that it is true?  Society and trends in belief do not dictate what is true or not. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Coming from the same person with all their strength being used ? No, a kick is always more powerful.


Based on what?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well then you are absolutely wrong, as in that context a kick is more powerful than a punch.


based on what?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It definitely is a shorter distance than A sent him flying.


concession accepted as i've given you explicit reasoning and manga pages that show Naruto and Bee traveling far more than Naruto did when Ei punched him, yet you've simply asserted the negative of my conclusions without providing any reasoning.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> B is shown being pushed back after Yugito's attack, so it doesn't matter what you believe lol.


No she didn't, bee voluntarily moved back in order to avoid her foot slashes, yuugito does not gain power from extending her nails.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Being weaker than A doesn't equate to being weak. Han is still pretty strong. And Naruto took note of that. That is all. But his reaction seemed alot more extreme against A's hits. Which makes me believe Han doesn't hit as hard.


His reaction would be greater against Ei because that's the first time he's getting hit with a physical punch of such strength, however what's more impressive is that after he experiences that kind of power via Ei, he's still impressed by han's power.  It's the same thing with Ei's speed, Naruto didn't show surprise against Sandaime raikage's speed despite saying it's on the same level as Ei's.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> We aren't discussing any kick to any punch here.
> We are talking about kicks and punches coming from same strength tier.
> So yes, a full powered kick > full powered punch.


Based on what?  You can repeat yourself over and over that a kick > a punch however if you can't show that every kick from the same character is > every punch from the same character, then you have to show why that particular kick would be more powerful than a particular punch.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A's punch depicted as being heavier than Han's pretty much implies that his kick would be stronger as well.


been over why Ei's punch wasn't heavier, and that was base han's attack.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol. No.
> We know how hard A can hit with his punches. We can compare them to Han's punches because they were used on the same character. Then we can scale off his kick based on that.
> I only said it isn't fair to compare A's punch that was blocked to Han's kick that wasn't blocked.
> 
> Kaguya on the other hand doesn't give us anything to work with.


Kaguya has given us plenty to work with.  We've been given multiple strength feats by juubi jinks and version of the juubi jinks before they became juubi jinks.  From there you can scale kaguya's strength.

Then there's the fact that it was base han who punched naruto while it was one-tailed han who kicked naruto.  so even if you could show that V1 Ei punches harder than base han, you wouldn't be able to show that V2 Ei kicks harder than 1 tailed han.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, like he magically became strong enough to topple the dude who he couldn't a second ago.


Or he wasn't trying to 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Transformed arm gives him more strength so he can block A's hits easier. This isn't rocket science.


this is another concession on your part as your post completely ignores the reasoning that i use to show that while he can dampen the impact of the hit, the entire force it exerts on his body remains constant and therefore he'd have to brace himself just as much as he'd have to do if he took the hit in base.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Conjecture.


another massive double standard on your part.  You claim Ei wasn't hitting his hardest sometimes when it suits your agenda, yet you call it conjecture when I give reasoning to show that bee wasn't trying to lariat his hardest when it doesn't suit your agenda.  Debate honestly.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Irrelevant, as two instances are nothing alike.


concession accepted once again, as you've ignored the reasoning I provide to show how the two instances are alike, which would then allow for comparison between force of one hit vs the other hit, while bringing up no reasoning to back up your arguments.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'll just drop this here and call it a day. It pretty much settles all the debates that are going on right now.
> 
> *Sakura's punch couldn't even budge a limbo clone.*
> 
> ...


You do understand that what you've just posted proves nothing as Bee grabbing naruto and trying to stop him would be the equivalent of the second instance where Human path braced himself and could block Jiraiya's punch right?  \


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you serious ?



Perfectly.



> Your stregnth is a counter force. So yes, you will resist the push if you are blocking it.



That only applies if either a) you're pushing back at the same time your friend is pushing you, or b) you're actively trying slow yourself down with your feet and resist being displaced.

Those two scenarios are entirely different from what you were trying to compare in the first place (getting pushed without resistance), so comparing them doesn't make any sense to begin with.

If we look at Ay punching Naruto, a) and b) *both don't apply to the latter* because a) there's no evidence of him pushing back, neither is it logical to resist a punchwith your arm strength and b) Naruto lacks a foothold for resistance.



> There is a reason why characters are thrown less when they block and get ragdolled when they don't.



Prove it.

And I take it you concede on the Naruto-Ay debate?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> You do understand that what you've just posted proves nothing as Bee grabbing naruto and trying to stop him would be the equivalent of the second instance where Human path braced himself and could block Jiraiya's punch right?  \





ATastyMuffin said:


> Perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've proved my point with the scans of Jiraiya. There isn't much left to debate here as ; 

there's no evidence of him pushing back is equal to there's no evidence of him pushing back

and 

there's no evidence of him pushing back is equal to there's no evidence of him pushing back

And by comparing these you are trying to prove that the latter hits harder.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've proved my point with the scans of Jiraiya. There isn't much left to debate here as ;
> 
> meters is equal to meters
> 
> ...



Erm, what exactly have you proven here?

Try articulating your arguments cohesively instead of throwing out links to avoid actually explaining your rationale. Though, it isn't logical anyways so I doubt you could.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Erm, what exactly have you proven here?
> 
> Try articulating your arguments cohesively instead of throwing out links to avoid actually explaining your rationale. Though, it isn't logical anyways so I doubt you could.



My explanation is pretty clear.


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## Turrin (Jul 16, 2014)

1- Juubi
2- Naruto 
3- Red Gate Gai
4- Kurama
5-  Sakura
6- Tsunade
7- Butterfly Choji
8- Sage-Jiriaya
9- V2 B
10- Ei


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

> 1- Juubi
> 2- Naruto
> 3- Red Gate Gai





> 8- Sage-Jiriaya
> 9- V2 B



For real, dawg? :sanji


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> My explanation is pretty clear.



And I'm asking you to explain it again. Otherwise you're just avoiding posting a proper rebuttal.


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## SSMG (Jul 17, 2014)

1.8 Gate guy.
2.current naruto(while using the five tail)

everyone else doesnt matter.


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