# Goku (DragonBall) Vs Iron Man 616 (Marvel)



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

As it says in the title. 

Tony Stark get's his current armor. Both characters are bloodlusted, Tony has a ki signature. Battle field is the ROSAT/Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Discuss.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jun 1, 2010)

What's a ROSAT?

Isn't Tony's current armor kinda weak? Goku blows him up with a planet-buster.  Realistically, PIS off, Goku teleports away from any attack Tony can muster. He could jab at him all day and just chip away.


----------



## Watchman (Jun 1, 2010)

Room Of Space And Time (aka Hyperbolic Time-Space Chamber)


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 1, 2010)

CrazyMoronX said:


> What's a ROSAT?
> 
> Isn't Tony's current armor kinda weak? Goku blows him up with a planet-buster.  Realistically, PIS off, Goku teleports away from any attack Tony can muster. He could jab at him all day and just chip away.



Room of Space and Time from Dragonball

Tony's current armor is an upgraded version of the Extremis armor though...


----------



## Aokiji (Jun 1, 2010)

This was done before, Goku won, via speedblitz. Even DB debunkers agreed with it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

No, his current armor is his strongest yet (well, excluding Thorbuster). Its power source was compared to a star.



It pretty much can do everything Extremis can do and more.

As for speedblitz, Tony could be the one speeblitzing. He has some insane feats, such as reaching the sun and traveling around it in a few minutes (and that was with one of his old armors), also outrunning a black hole on earth.


----------



## God (Jun 1, 2010)

Goku FTL speedblitz with universe buster.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

EM, are those consistant feats for Iron Man? 

Goku's has IT, so if he could survive Tony's opening attack couldn't he land a Kamehameha.


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

Did it actually behave like a singularity or is it like the Vong stuff?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> EM, are those consistant feats for Iron Man?



Considering Extremis gave him a huge boost in speed and reaction time and his new armor is even better, I would say yes. His brain runs faster than a supercomputer, he was able to track signals working on an attosecond timescale (an attosecond is 1/1000000000000000000th of a second)



> Goku's has IT, so if he could survive Tony's opening attack couldn't he land a Kamehameha.



Tony has tech that can track teleportation, as well as teleportation tech himself. Not to mention his own time machine which has been shown incorporated into his armor. Kamehameha takes too long to charge. His armor also has defenses that activate automatically regardless of his will.



TWF said:


> Did it actually behave like a singularity or is it like the Vong stuff?



It was a real singularity.

Here are the scans:



Here's a description of the weapon







Here he is outrunning it (he did survive but was pretty messed up, although that was in one of his older, weaker armors)


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

The Kamehameha doesn't take that long to charge. He was able to do one extremely fast to block Nappa's attack.

Link removed

Plus at levels beyond SSJ he's a casual planet buster. It would only take time if Goku had to put all or large quantities of his ki into the attack.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Tony's durability is nothing to scoff at either, especially with the forcefields being fed by his new reactor.

Really this is a close match.


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Jun 1, 2010)

goku hits tony with a planet busting attack


> Considering Extremis gave him a huge boost in speed and reaction time and his new armor is even better, I would say yes. His brain runs faster than a supercomputer,* he was able to track signals working on an attosecond timescale (an attosecond is 1/1000000000000000000th of a second)*


EM could you provide the scans of this


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

Goku can use destructo disk as well, that's a pretty good move for bypassing durability.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Blackfeather Dragon said:


> goku hits tony with a planet busting attack



Because it's not like Tony has never hung with planet busters before, right?



> EM could you provide the scans of this



Turns out I was wrong, it was actually picoseconds, but that's still fast:



He also has a feat where he was being shot at by people who were no more than a few meters away, and he managed to summon his armor from orbit fast enough to intercept the bullets before they hit him.



Cooler said:


> Goku can use destructo disk as well, that's a pretty good move for bypassing durability.



Not really as Tony's suit can absorb and convert energy.

I'm not saying Goku will lose, in fact I think he has an even chance here.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Not really as Tony's suit can absorb and convert energy.
> 
> I'm not saying Goku will lose, in fact I think he has an even chance here.



Are you saying ki attacks are useless?


----------



## Aokiji (Jun 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, his current armor is his strongest yet (well, excluding Thorbuster). Its power source was compared to a star.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You yourself admitted that Tony would lose.


----------



## Devil Kings (Jun 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Goku can use destructo disk as well, that's a pretty good move for bypassing durability.



Why do people believe that the destructo disk is an auto win.

Hell in the lounge this guy believes the dd would slice Superman in half.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

I never said it was an auto win, however its effectiveness is far greater than standard ki attacks. That much is proven. 

Second Form Freeza tanked a big ki attack from Vegeta, yet Krillin someone a tenth of Vegeta's PL would have cut Freeza in half with the destructo disk.

A disk from SSJ3 Goku is going to be extremely difficult to tank...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Are you saying ki attacks are useless?



Of course not, but they're not one - shot kills either. (Well a strong enough one would be but he would have to charge up for that)



> You yourself admitted that Tony would lose.



That was before he got his newest armor.


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Jun 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> I never said it was an auto win, however its effectiveness is far greater than standard ki attacks. That much is proven.
> 
> Second Form Freeza tanked a big ki attack from Vegeta, yet Krillin someone a tenth of Vegeta's PL would have cut Freeza in half with the destructo disk.
> 
> A disk from SSJ3 Goku is going to be extremely difficult to tank...



Goku never used kienzan, and we can't assume he can use it either, is like saying he can also use the sokidan and kikoho.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 1, 2010)

Yes when in the manga has Goku used it? Solar Flare, KK, Kamehameha, IT, rock/papper/scissors(DB), flight, Genki Dama and his forms is all I remember.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

He used it against Super Buu


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 1, 2010)

Fair enough been a while.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Of course not, but they're not one - shot kills either. (Well a strong enough one would be but he would have to charge up for that)



Well what's Iron Man's durability like, any good feats you could post?



veget0010 said:


> Goku never used kienzan, and we can't assume he can use it either, is like saying he can also use the sokidan and kikoho.



Link removed


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

Goku's version of Kienzan is incredibly inferior to both Kurrin's and Freeza's.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

How do you know this?


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

Because it's shit, that's why. He's only used it once, had to guide it on a stationary Super Buu, and that's that. It also isn't anywhere in size or speed to Freeza's or Kurrin's.

That simple.

edit: More simply, prove its as good as those two's real ones.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jun 1, 2010)

> He has some insane feats, such as reaching the sun and traveling around it in a few minutes (and that was with one of his old armors), also outrunning a black hole on earth.



The black hole feat is a travel speed not combat speed if I'm not mistaken? If Tony is still a idoit after shuting his brain off then Goku would win. If his recent armor is much more powerful then was before then the match might go either way.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Well what's Iron Man's durability like, any good feats you could post?



He's taken hits from Thor, Hulk, Sentry, Surfer, all of the top tiers. He survived the aforementioned black hole bomb, and a blast from Mandarin that was said to "tear through the fabric of creation", whatever that means.

Also I notice we are treating Tony purely on the defensive in this thread, when he has many options for offense as well, that would give Goku trouble.

For example:

- Nanomachines that could destroy him from inside (if a virus could kill him...)
- Antimatter weapons
- Black holes
- Brain hacking - he has programs that can erase the memories of his targets. He has also used this to deactivate the powers of other beings.
- Time travel
- Fields that can tear matter apart on an atomic level
- Phasing tech
- Pym shrinking tech

His computers can also analyze an opponent in the middle of a battle to determine weaknesses and predict their moves, giving him a sort of precog.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> The black hole feat is a travel speed not combat speed if I'm not mistaken?



He was inside of a building when it started and had to navigate his way out.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> His computers can also analyze an opponent in the middle of a battle to determine weaknesses and predict their moves, giving him a sort of precog.



Speaking of precog, didn't he replicate Spider sense?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Speaking of precog, didn't he replicate Spider sense?



Yes, by using the data collected from the Iron Spider suit when Peter was wearing it. Tony's a dick like that.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 1, 2010)

I'm not actually seeing anything goku has being able to do lasting damage to his shields before tony blows his brains out...

mind you..his previous shields included some Shi'ar technology./...their shield tech has allowed garbage freighters to withstand supernovas...with minimal depletion

while tony's own shielding may not be that potent or maybe in his newest incarnation I'm not sure there././they should be sufficient enough to withstand a beating from goku long enough for him to do something


----------



## Cooler (Jun 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> Because it's shit, that's why. He's only used it once, had to guide it on a stationary Super Buu, and that's that. It also isn't anywhere in size or speed to Freeza's or Kurrin's.
> 
> That simple.
> 
> edit: More simply, prove its as good as those two's real ones.



I never said it was as good, I just questioned the evidence proving it was 'incredibly inferior'. 

He had to guide it? All Destructo disks are throw towards their target are they not? 

As for the speed, I'm not sure how you deduce that from the panels? Size wise, well I'm not sure but I'm not sure how Goku's being a little bit smaller makes the whole technique massively inferior.

I assume the strength and speed of the destructo disk is relative to the PL of the fighter who uses it. SSJ3 Goku's destructo disk would be >>>> any that came before it.


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

In other words you have no proof its anywhere near the same level of effectiveness in ability or power  as those who actually specialize in using it.

Good to know.


----------



## God (Jun 1, 2010)

Tony's suit can let him survive in space right?


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> Because it's shit, that's why. He's only used it once, he had to guide it


 thats what she said.
Anyway, i'd give Goku a slight advantage here. Slight.


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

lol

is that supposed to be witty?


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> lol
> 
> is that supposed to be witty?


No, thats what she said jokes are like the street fighter movie
retarded but funny
Don't know why you bother responding to my ramblings though?


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

to be entertained


----------



## Darklyre (Jun 1, 2010)

I don't see why we're discussing the Destructo Disk like it's different from a regular ki attack. Any projectile attack will first hit Tony's shields, and the penetration of the attack is inapplicable against energy shielding. Instead, it's the AMOUNT of energy in the attack that's relevant.

Plus, Tony can absorb energy. There's no difference in energy types between a ki blast, Kamehameha, or Destructo Disk. If Tony can absorb one, he can absorb them all, up to the maximum limit he's shown.


----------



## Fang (Jun 1, 2010)

Darklyre said:


> I don't see why we're discussing the Destructo Disk like it's different from a regular ki attack.



Because * it is different* from any other Ki technique sans the Genki Dama.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 1, 2010)

> In other words you have no proof its anywhere near the same level of effectiveness in ability or power as those who actually specialize in using it.



The burden of proof is on you, TWF. Why would Goku's ki-enzan be any different? He used it to mortally wound an opponent far superior to himself, similarly to Vegeta vs Oozaroo or Kuririn vs. Freeza.



> - Nanomachines that could destroy him from inside (if a virus could kill him...)
> - Antimatter weapons
> - Black holes
> - Brain hacking - he has programs that can erase the memories of his targets. He has also used this to deactivate the powers of other beings.
> ...



-If he manages to sneak the nanotechs onto Goku, they could do the trick, or at least cause irritating long-term damage ot his insides. Saiyajins are still susceptible to diseases.
-What is the extent of his anti-matter manipulation? Are his black-holes used in regular combat?
-Brain hacking would be pointles, lol. Goku's a rock.
-The matter manipulation and phasing could also give him an edge in CQC. This is a close matchup.


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> The burden of proof is on you, TWF. Why would Goku's ki-enzan be any different? He used it to mortally wound an opponent far superior to himself, similarly to Vegeta vs Oozaroo or Kuririn vs. Freeza.



There is no burden of proof on me. Secondly, the technique used by Freeza and Kurrin have actual value in-universe, as we've seen with K man against Nappa and Freeza's end game technique against Super Saiyan Goku on Namek.

Its a poor man's simulacrum, and nothing more. Same goes for Vegeta's and 18's version of it as well.

And slicing Buu in half with it isn't impressive, the same guy was pierced by the bullets of normal hand guns.


----------



## Darklyre (Jun 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> Because * it is different* from any other Ki technique sans the Genki Dama.



As best I can tell, it's simply a ki projectile made in a shape that allows for greater physical penetration and less area damage. That's like going from round shot to shaped bullets. All you're doing is increasing the penetration value of the projectile, but not really doing much to its innate structure, and against energy shields the penetration value of a projectile is irrelevant.

The Genki Dama runs off of ki gathered from the environment and from other people. That, Gotenks' ghost attacks, Buu's candy beam, and Dabura's stone spit are pretty much the only projectile attacks I can remember from DBZ that aren't made of your own ki.


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Genki Dama, as the name suggests uses a different type of energy source than regular Chi/Ki, its mechanics are still the same. Genki = life force, Ki = spirit energy. 

Kienzan may be a Ki technique but it works completely different, since even though Kurrin was completely weaker than Nappa, the technique would've killed him. Same again with Freeza's Kienzans against a superior Goku who was a Super Saiyan.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 2, 2010)

> Its a poor man's simulacrum, and nothing more. Same goes for Vegeta's and 18's version of it as well.



Vegeta had never been to Earth before and was immediately able to tell that Nappa would be seriously injured if he didn't dodge. He then uses the same technique within the same story arc to remove the tail of an opponent many times stronger than him.

As for 18, she learned it from Kuririn himself. I want you to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that their versions are inferior, even if it's from the daizenshu.



> And slicing Buu in half with it isn't impressive, the same guy was pierced by the bullets of normal hand guns.



Inconsistent with the fact Grey Boo had bullets bouncing off of his skin only 10 pages earlier, not to mention Vegeta and Goku being able to create craters in his skin from their punches.


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Vegeta had never been to Earth before and was immediately able to tell that Nappa would be seriously injured if he didn't dodge. He then uses the same technique within the same story arc to remove the tail of an opponent many times stronger than him.



The technique would've killed Nappa, no. Gohan transformed was not "many" times stronger than him. He was badly wounded, took a Genki Dama, being blasted into the stratosphere by Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamahama Ha and getting fucked up by Kaioken x3 in hand to hand combat.

So no. And Yajirobe cut off Vegeta's tail with his sword.

Your exaggerating, is putting it lightly.



> As for 18, she learned it from Kuririn himself. I want you to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that their versions are inferior, even if it's from the daizenshu.



Like I care.



> Inconsistent with the fact Grey Boo had bullets bouncing off of his skin only 10 pages earlier, not to mention Vegeta and Goku being able to create craters in his skin from their punches.



Its not an inconsistency, have you actually read the manga?


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> The technique would've killed Nappa, no. Gohan transformed was not "many" times stronger than him. He was badly wounded, took a Genki Dama, being blasted into the stratosphere by Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamahama Ha and getting fucked up by Kaioken x3 in hand to hand combat.



Gohan's power transformed 10-fold as an oozaroo.

Still waiting for you to _prove_ it's different.



> Its not an inconsistency, have you actually read the manga?



When it comes to Boo's durability, scenes like him being hurt by machine-guns should be dismissed when SS3 Goku can wail on him and his body doesn't crumble like paper.


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Gohan's power transformed 10-fold as an oozaroo.



Fandom bullshit.



> Still waiting for you to _prove_ it's different.



Burden isn't on me, you'll have a long time waiting.



> When it comes to Boo's durability, scenes like him being hurt by machine-guns should be dismissed when SS3 Goku can wail on him and his body doesn't crumble like paper.



This absolutely hilarious reasoning.

So when a far weaker Majin Vegeta was punching his face in (literally), that doesn't count either for you? Okay, so bullets = Super Saiyan 2 strength and striking force then.

Fantastic.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> -snip-



In other words, you can't prove it. Good to hear.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 2, 2010)

I think talking about destructo disk is rather silly. If Tony's shield can absorb it, then it will absorb it regardless of how sharp it is. Also Destructo Disk has never came off as a fast attack, Tony would recognize how dangerous it is (I mean Vegeta could) so he would likely chose to evade it in some fashion.

Also wanted to say that Oorazu Gohan is not nearly as strong as Base Vegeta. Gohan's base powerlevel was a bit under a 1000, Oorazu only raises PL by 10x. Vegeta's is stated to be 18,000.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

To be fair While Buu has planet+ durability the nature of his body is what causes such occurences.  A weaker opponent cutting through Buu should'n really be as hard as say Cell or Frieza.The DD is not helping in the long run with Tony's H4X.

Phasing tech means DD goes through him
Black holes could probably be used to counter it
Fields that can tear matter apart on an atomic level could stop it
Time travel is kind of a given
His speed seems insane enough to dodge DD easily
His own version of spider sense to warn him of danger
Pico second reaction/thinking speed
Could also be absorbed

Actually from reading through it seems Tony has a counter for everything Goku can throw.



> Tony has tech that can track teleportation, as well as teleportation tech himself. Not to mention his own time machine which has been shown incorporated into his armor. Kamehameha takes too long to charge. His armor also has defenses that activate automatically regardless of his will



Like I said.


----------



## Stermor (Jun 2, 2010)

what would stop goku from teleporting to the other side of the galaxy and powering up a massive kamehameha then teleporting back into ironmans face?? maybe iron man can react to it but he won't be able to dogde...


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 2, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, his current armor is his strongest yet (well, excluding Thorbuster). Its power source was compared to a star.



Did he just say to Reed "Did you know that?"


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 2, 2010)

geez. I REALLY don't know right now.
I hadn't read iron man since volume 2 of the invincible iron man. Just now, I had researched on his new "bleeding edge iron man" suit, and I must say. GOD DAMN!
I couldn't imagine any armor possibly outdoing the extremis armor, but this just outdoes it.
Now, extremis didn't require an old school chest piece, but that thing is worth it.

I don't know if goku is going to be able to handle it. Tony equated the repulsor engine to the power of a star, and that is REDICULOUS. that would effectively give him limitless energy to work with (limitless in the time frame), and his repulsors are just going to be obscenely strong. Now the whole suit seems to be made from nano-tech, and has a code that rebuilds the suit in the perfect way, every time.

that means even if it DOESN'T absorb energy, it will re-form itself if damaged. tony doesn't need to eat, sleep, or breath with this new armor, and he doesn't even use his brain anymore. he basically replaced his organs with the suit. ALL of them.

I don't know if goku, who gets tired, can compete with that. Remember the android saga? it's like that, but with powered armor, and an engine that has star power 

BE is the dopest suit I have seen yet... next time, he's going for a symbiote suit.


----------



## Axl Low (Jun 2, 2010)

Actually I think this one is more of a toss up than most might think.
Well if this is  Tony's "old" armor I am more inclined to say Goku wins
However if this Tony's new upped Extremis armor I am pretty sure he can edge this one out.


----------



## FanB0y (Jun 2, 2010)

Stermor said:


> what would stop goku from teleporting to the other side of the galaxy and powering up a massive kamehameha then teleporting back into ironmans face?? maybe iron man can react to it but he won't be able to dogde...



Has Goku ever used IT in the middle of charging a Kamehameha?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

He did against Cell. But if Ironman can process thoughts at such absurd speed then It's not as easy, besides it was already mentioned Ironman can track teleportation.


----------



## Stermor (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He did against Cell. But if Ironman can process thoughts at such absurd speed then It's not as easy, besides it was already mentioned Ironman can track teleportation.



well the idea was he iron man can't cross the galaxy in time to stop the kamahameha wave? and while he might know where goku is but he can't stop him. and for the same thing even if ironman knows goku will appear at that moment in his face with a ready kamehameha what can he do to stop it teleportation is instant. ironman will not have the ability dogde a fully formed kamahameha??


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> In other words you have no proof its anywhere near the same level of effectiveness in ability or power  as those who actually specialize in using it.
> 
> Good to know.



Like I said before, I was just questioning your evidence proving that Goku's version was dramatically inferior. Less control etc...doesn't necessarily mean its going to cut worse than Krillins or Freeza's.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> geez. I REALLY don't know right now.
> I hadn't read iron man since volume 2 of the invincible iron man. Just now, I had researched on his new "bleeding edge iron man" suit, and I must say. GOD DAMN!
> I couldn't imagine any armor possibly outdoing the extremis armor, but this just outdoes it.
> Now, extremis didn't require an old school chest piece, but that thing is worth it.
> ...



I think the 'power of a star' comment is being overestimated. The luminonsity of our sun is roughly 4 x 10^26 W's per second, which is orders of magnitude less than planet busting. Goku himself puts out star levels of energy...

The energy required to bust a star is far far far more than what a standard main sequence star outputs per second.

Has an upper limit for Iron Man's energy absorption been demonstrated?

FanB0y, he did against Cell.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

When has Goku teleported across the Galaxy or even attacked from such range? What can he do? He has the power to think and react at computer like speeds and comes with a variety of H4X that has only been mentioned across these 4 pages. Did you read through?


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

Well Goku has teleported unspecified distances and across dimensions. Although I agree that him being able to IT kamehameha from across a galaxy is rather farfetched...

Goku's reactions aren't anything to laugh at either. If he can react to massively hypersonic fighters at hand to hand distances he's going to be pretty fast in the thinking department. Are there any calcs?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

There are no calcs for Goku's thinking speed, you can't calc that it has to be stated. We have the end of series characters/top-tiers at mach 800-1000+ or so in movement speed. Regardless



> He has some insane feats, such as reaching the sun and traveling around it in a few minutes (and that was with one of his old armors), also outrunning a black hole on earth



And thinking speed in picoseconds


> picoseconds



Plus:


> Time travel
> - Fields that can tear matter apart on an atomic level
> - Phasing tech





> His computers can also analyze an opponent in the middle of a battle to determine weaknesses and predict their moves, giving him a sort of precog





> Yes, by using the data collected from the Iron Spider suit when Peter was wearing it. Tony's a dick like that



So he possibly also has Spider sense.

And for IT


> Tony has tech that can track teleportation, as well as teleportation tech himself. Not to mention his own time machine which has been shown incorporated into his armor. Kamehameha takes too long to charge. His armor also has defenses that activate automatically regardless of his will



Really it seems the current version of Ironman is just H4X and Goku's moveset does'nt really have anything he can't handle. If you want a more fair fight you'll have to chose some other version.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

his old suit tank this 



look what tony says here




he's current armor can tank a kamahameha with know problem at all


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> his old suit tank this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That blast is nothing compared to what the top tiers in DBZ can dish out.

Goku is a casual planet buster.


----------



## kakashi amateratsu (Jun 2, 2010)

the forcefield just absorbs the kamehameha and if goku does it again im sure IM got some way to attack him


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

Has Iron Man absorbed the energy from planet busters before? And even if he has, Goku's planet busters are way beyond the minimum requirements to destroy a planet.


----------



## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 2, 2010)

Wow, I figured this would be an even fight (and i guess it still kinda is), but Tony's new armor leads to me giving it to him.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 2, 2010)

Stermor said:


> what would stop goku from teleporting to the other side of the galaxy and powering up a massive kamehameha then teleporting back into ironmans face?? maybe iron man can react to it but he won't be able to dogde...


The fact that they're in the Room of Space and Time?


----------



## Whimsy (Jun 2, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Has Iron Man absorbed the energy from planet busters before? And even if he has, Goku's planet busters are way beyond the minimum requirements to destroy a planet.



Like goku's actually going to fire a planet buster. All Ironman has to do is dodge it and he autowins I think.

Edit: unless it's in the room of spirit and time of course


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

Whimsy said:


> Like goku's actually going to fire a planet buster. All Ironman has to do is dodge it and he autowins I think.



Goku is bloodlusted...he can spam them.

It is in the ROSAT yes.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> his old suit tank this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He took a blast from the Void? Anyway for people who don't know you should please explain what's happening and how powerful the character is. This was from Siege 4 right?

As for the Void:
...........
...........

Assuming that blast in your pic was from the void then it would be worth something not sure if tanking it means he can tank a Kamehameha though but I'm no expert.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 2, 2010)

Yeah, that's from Siege.


----------



## the box (Jun 2, 2010)

goku speedblitz and punches him to peices


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

Cooler said:


> That blast is nothing compared to what the top tiers in DBZ can dish out.
> 
> Goku is a casual planet buster.



Even without his force-field up, Tony?s armor easily withstands a nuclear blast at extremely close range









survives an explosion resulting from Mandarin?s rings, which had enough power to tear through the fabric of creation











this is what the old armor has tanked his new armor is way powerful enough to tank a core buster kamahameha


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

the box said:


> goku speedblitz and punches him to peices



if his armor can take 100 ton force hits from thor and the hulk. his armor is going to take them low level hits from goku


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He took a blast from the Void? Anyway for people who don't know you should please explain what's happening and how powerful the character is. This was from Siege 4 right?
> 
> As for the Void:
> ...........
> ...



That's not a Void blast, that's the HAMMER Helicarrier going nuclear. Iron Man didn't take that, the only one who was at the epicenter of that explosion was Bob. With "not bad for old armor" he's talking about his being able to seize control of the entire Helicarrier that way, with the oldie armor he had then.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 2, 2010)

So perhaps IM takes this 55/45?


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

I'd still like to see more explanation/fluff on that black hole.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

Charcan said:


> That's not a Void blast, that's the HAMMER Helicarrier going nuclear. Iron Man didn't take that, the only one who was at the epicenter of that explosion was Bob. With "not bad for old armor" he's talking about his being able to seize control of the entire Helicarrier that way, with the oldie armor he had then.





thor and iron man waren't that far from the blast it self.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> Even without his force-field up, Tony?s armor easily withstands a nuclear blast at extremely close range
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Surviving a nuke is nothing...I want to see him tanking planet busters. 

The 'tear the fabric of creation' feat is unquantifiable. Judging from the size of the explosion Goku can dish out more.

Do you really want to start powerscaling?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 2, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Has Iron Man absorbed the energy from planet busters before? And even if he has, Goku's planet busters are way beyond the minimum requirements to destroy a planet.



yes it can....

no goku is being massively over estimated by you the guys not gonna be spamming unlimited planet busters...certainly not before tony fucks with his synapses...or does what he did when he suicide blasted the hulk...something that would rip goku in half literally


----------



## Cooler (Jun 2, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes it can....
> 
> no goku is being massively over estimated by you the guys not gonna be spamming unlimited planet busters...certainly not before tony fucks with his synapses...or does what he did when he suicide blasted the hulk...something that would rip goku in half literally



Describe this suicide blast and  please state why it would rip Goku in half, what did it do to the hulk?

I'd happily accept what you're saying if someone would post a scan of Iron Man tanking a planet buster.

Goku's ki attacks are being underestimated. Freeza was a planet buster...Goku is leagues beyond Freeza at this point. He's a casual planet buster, which means he can bust planets without effort. Maybe he won't throw hundreds of the things but tossing a few Tony's way isn't going to be a big deal for him. 

How easily does Tony 'fuck with peoples synapses'?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

> Goku is leagues beyond Freeza at this point. He's a casual planet buster, which means he can bust planets without effort. Maybe he won't throw hundreds of the things but tossing a few Tony's way isn't going to be a big deal for him



No stop, he can't blow up planets with no effort. Powerscaling is being abused here because:

-We don't have power levels post Frieza
-We don't know the correlation between increase in power and power level

Let's say 200 is power level for planet busting Earth.A 500 times increase in power level won't mean you can blow up Earth 500 times. Kid Buu and above as casual planet busters? Sure not Goku. 

Vegeta only becomes a planet+ threat when he did Final Flash and 
Goku only became that to Cell when he did Kamehameha. Both Vegeta and Goku at those points were>Frieza quite easily. And Ironman seems lightspeed based on the feats EM posted. Add his absurd thinking speed, time travel, teleport, tech for tracking teleporting and Spider sense and Goku would not be able to do anything. I'm sorry but this Ironman incarnation seems overpowered for Goku.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 2, 2010)

Proton Blast FTW

Not to mention infinity gem


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Vegeta only becomes a planet+ threat when he did Final Flash and
> Goku only became that to Cell when he did Kamehameha.



Just to play devil's advocate here, not that I really care anymore for this match up. But Vegeta told 18 that he had to be careful with the energy he used, even casually, with his Big Bang Attack, or he would bust the Earth.

Anyway, proceed.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 2, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He's taken hits from Thor, Hulk, Sentry, Surfer, all of the top tiers. He survived the aforementioned black hole bomb, and a blast from Mandarin that was said to "tear through the fabric of creation", whatever that means.


Black Hole bomb is kinda of a doozie here :S


> His computers can also analyze an opponent in the middle of a battle to determine weaknesses and predict their moves, giving him a sort of precog.



Not to mention Spider-Sense, although I'm not sure if BND fixed that


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 2, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Describe this suicide blast and  please state why it would rip Goku in half, what did it do to the hulk?



he channeled all his energy all his power reserves even his own life  support into one massive repulsor attack on hulk the force of which knocked him completely the fuck out and almost killed him

killed hulk a being who can ram himself through asteroids larger then earth sized planets..survive a matter anti matter reaction in his own body and cause enough trauma..to a pocket dimension so as to cause a chain reaction that collapses it

putting a being with such durability/healing factor in mortal peril is to me well enough to utterly fucking murder goku


Cooler said:


> I'd happily accept what you're saying if someone would post a scan of Iron Man tanking a planet buster.



moot since goku wont be spamming such things...



Cooler said:


> Goku's ki attacks are being underestimated. Freeza was a planet buster...Goku is leagues beyond Freeza at this point. He's a casual planet buster, which means he can bust planets without effort. Maybe he won't throw hundreds of the things but tossing a few Tony's way isn't going to be a big deal for him.



this is called powerscaling and using abc logic

this is an incredibly inaccurate and bad way to debate


Cooler said:


> How easily does Tony 'fuck with peoples synapses'?



all he needs is to get nanites on gokus skin....they can then do what ever tony wants "fry brain" is the usual command causing synpatic disturbances sort of like a poor mans magneto

but he can say under blood lusty go "ebola virus mode" then play keep away with goku long enough..for his intestines..to liquefy..and bleed out gokus..orifices...


----------



## Stermor (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> When has Goku teleported across the Galaxy or even attacked from such range? What can he do? He has the power to think and react at computer like speeds and comes with a variety of H4X that has only been mentioned across these 4 pages. Did you read through?



i did read through them... look we know goku can teleport with a kamehameha.. as shown with cell. the idea is goku teleports far enough away(don't realy care if it is a galaxy away or a few planets as long as iron can't get there in time to stop him) that he can powrrup (go ss3 and charge a powerful kamehameha) will take a couple minuts. then it back with kamahameha ready and blast it into ironmans face.. 

it is goku strongest possible attack and i doubt ironman can dogde a fully formed kamehameha to the face.. there for the only question is can ironman take the maximum powerup kamehameha wave goku can deliver... 

whether he can or cannot is another debate.. personaly i believe he can but i don't know enough about ironman to be sure.


----------



## God (Jun 2, 2010)

Iron Man can track teleporters.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2010)

> it is goku strongest possible attack and i doubt ironman can dogde a fully formed kamehameha to the face.. there for the only question is can ironman take the maximum powerup kamehameha wave goku can deliver...



Goku has never shown the range you're saying, the default setting is ROSAT and Goku needs to sense Ki to teleport somewhere. The question is'nt whether Tony can survive Goku's Kamehameha but whether Goku can avoid being blitzed and hit with nasty H4X at FTL speeds with someone thinking at super computer speeds.


----------



## Stermor (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Goku has never shown the range you're saying, the default setting is ROSAT and Goku needs to sense Ki to teleport somewhere. The question is'nt whether Tony can survive Goku's Kamehameha but whether Goku can avoid being blitzed and hit with nasty H4X at FTL speeds with someone thinking at super computer speeds.



i was under teh impression goku could teleport he has shown large range with it since he could it to king kai planet so range shouldn't be a problem.. it was why i said goku should teleport far enough away since i know staying close to ironman will be a problem for goku. if goku can't use it to get a few seconds to powerup ironman gonne slaughter him

also while ironman can track teleports he can't teleport himself atleast not instant ?? 

also is tony a ftl fighter ?? i thought he could think at that llvl but not move that fast. atleast not fast enough for the little ammount of time goke needs to shove a kamahameha in the face.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 2, 2010)

He can teleport into his line of sight without a signature as well, but that doesnt help here


----------



## Stermor (Jun 2, 2010)

guess then goku's fucked i sorta just assumed goku would be able to teleport a couple planets over or something..


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 2, 2010)

He could, if he had a ki signal.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 2, 2010)

all he needs to do is run away from goku long enough for his nanites to melt gokus insides...


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 2, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> all he needs to do is run away from goku long enough for his nanites to melt gokus insides...



Which he should be able to do considering the sun-circling feat. If Goku tags him with a kick or chi-blasts, it's mayday mayday.



> he channeled all his energy all his power reserves even his own life support into one massive repulsor attack on hulk the force of which knocked him completely the fuck out and almost killed him



1-That obviously takes time to charge, and it was used on someone far slower than Goku.
2-He'd need to get close.
3-It's a last-resort. Just like Goku's not gonna use a spirit bomb off the bat. We both know they can kill each other. It's an even match.



> moot since goku wont be spamming such things...



In the ROSAT where he doesn't have to worry about the environment or innocents?

In his SSJ3 form?

He most certainly could "spam" planet-wrecking attacks.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Surviving a nuke is nothing...I want to see him tanking planet busters.
> 
> The 'tear the fabric of creation' feat is unquantifiable. Judging from the size of the explosion Goku can dish out more.
> 
> Do you really want to start powerscaling?




i don't use that powerscaling crap it never comes out the right way. goku couldn't survive a nuke blast. goku hasn't even tank a planet buster ever in his life. iron man has taken blast from sliver surfer and lived. it's not the size you have to worry about it's the effects from the explosion.


oh and that fabric explosion looks like the same size as this


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No stop, he can't blow up planets with no effort. Powerscaling is being abused here because:
> 
> -We don't have power levels post Frieza
> -We don't know the correlation between increase in power and power level
> ...





here's frieza's power level chart 



Uploaded with


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Yeah, that doesn't change anything. It's the last official marker of battle-power in the manga, everything after that doesn't exist.


----------



## Itachi1994 (Jun 2, 2010)

Seriously. Goku vs ironman. There is a big diffence in strength in american comics and current japanese manga. Goku at full strenght would pull him apart.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> Yeah, that doesn't change anything. It's the last official marker of battle-power in the manga, everything after that doesn't exist.



you're right about that one


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 2, 2010)

Itachi1994 said:


> Seriously. Goku vs ironman. There is a big diffence in strength in american comics and current japanese manga. Goku at full strenght would pull him apart.





goku had trouble hold up 40 tons on each arm had to go ssj. iron man picks up 2 tanks and smash them together. who's going to rip who apart again?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 2, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> goku had trouble hold up 40 tons on each arm had to go ssj.



that's generally regarded as a low-end outlier


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> In the ROSAT where he doesn't have to worry about the environment or innocents?
> 
> In his SSJ3 form?
> 
> He most certainly could "spam" planet-wrecking attacks.


He didn't say that Goku couldn't spam them, just that he won't since it'd be wasting a lot of energy and he'd leave himself horribly fucked if he missed with them.


----------



## Fang (Jun 2, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> goku had trouble hold up 40 tons on each arm had to go ssj. iron man picks up 2 tanks and smash them together. who's going to rip who apart again?



That was a gag scene and completely inconsistent with all his other strength feats.

And it was 40 tons at the end of his limbs, not 40 total.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Which he should be able to do considering the sun-circling feat. If Goku tags him with a kick or chi-blasts, it's mayday mayday.[



not really again Shi'ar reverse engineered tech and..his own stark shielding..not to mention he's had access to reed and doom type shield tech

he can handle gokus blows just fine...for at the very least a few minutes...which is all he needs to do the ebola trick or at least for the ebola trick to considerably slow monkey man down...and start to effect him

but your right getting into a sustained energy beat down with goku is a bad idea

for both of them neither one can tank sustained fire from the other 




Cygnus45 said:


> 1-That obviously takes time to charge, and it was used on someone far slower than Goku.



it took the time it took hulk to walk a few paces actually



Cygnus45 said:


> 2-He'd need to get close.



not really AOE if he so chose...in fact an overload like that would probably be a natural AOE...stark seemed to have to put considerable effort into directing it as a forward attack



Cygnus45 said:


> 3-It's a last-resort. Just like Goku's not gonna use a spirit bomb off the bat. We both know they can kill each other. It's an even match.



he has other means of attacking him...and causing serious damage beyond that though that was just merely...me bringing up if all else fails he can still fucking annihilate goku 

[





Cygnus45 said:


> In the ROSAT where he doesn't have to worry about the environment or innocents?



nothing I have seen from goku outside of powerscaling and abc logic suggests to me he can just pop off planet leveling attacks with no strain on him or charge time


Cygnus45 said:


> In his SSJ3 form?
> 
> He most certainly could "spam" planet-wrecking attacks.



I have seen no scans nor proof he could....outside of as I said powerscaling..which can go screw itself as far as it;s validity for evidence 

not to mention the strain ss3 apparently puts on him in so far as his endurance goes 



Itachi1994 said:


> Seriously. Goku vs ironman. There is a big diffence in strength in american comics and current japanese manga. Goku at full strenght would pull him apart.



lol thats so completely misninformed and wrong


----------



## God (Jun 2, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Which he should be able to do considering the sun-circling feat. *If Goku tags him with a kick or chi-blasts, it's mayday mayday.*



lol



> In the ROSAT where he doesn't have to worry about the environment or innocents?



This has nothing to do with it.



> In his SSJ3 form?
> 
> He most certainly could "spam" planet-wrecking attacks.



lol 30 second transformation, k.



Itachi1994 said:


> Seriously. Goku vs ironman. There is a big diffence in strength in american comics and current japanese manga. Goku at full strenght would pull him apart.



There's a big difference between American comics from any era and Japanese manga of any era. Want to know what it is?


*Spoiler*: _Hint_ 



Comics would massacre manga.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 2, 2010)

Cubey said:


> There's a big difference in American comics from any era and Japanese manga of any era. Want to know what it is?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Hint_
> ...



CUBEY NOOOOO never mention 
*Spoiler*: __ 



nanking


 to an otaku for it sends them into a japanese wankfest rage and an anti american tirade..where they deny..the event ever happened!!  this thread will be consumed with a large rant


besides the Atomic Bombings of Hirshima and nagasaki are a better description of what western comics do to 85% of manga  

the rest looks more like what Sherman did to the south


----------



## God (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up


----------



## Raigen (Jun 2, 2010)

Mokona takes 85% of American comics and sucks them into his mouth Kirby style, where they never appear again, and then goes; "Pu Pu!" 

But never mind that. What's Tony's actual current speed? Not a random guess at what his armor does. Give us an actual estimate. And we already know Piccolo casually moonbusted in DBZ pre Saiyan arrival. We know Kaioken multiplies everything about the user; speed, power, strength, senses, etc. Goku by Freeza Saga had mastered up to 20xKK (which means 20x his Power Level). Going by the numbers, SSJ is a 50x increase with FPSSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 being much, much higher on the power spectrum.

Now, I don't care much for the transformations and I don't care what kind of power core Tony has because that doesn't say jack about the actual force of his own attacks. And Tony's pschometry isn't very helpful here given Goku doesn't have nor use tech. He doesn't even have a drivers license.


----------



## God (Jun 2, 2010)

That isn't psychometry


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Cubey said:


> lol 30 second transformation, k.



the original LT calculation.

the original LT calculation.

Instanteous SSJ3 transformation. The anime makes everything look longer.



Heavenly King said:


> i don't use that powerscaling crap it never comes out the right way. goku couldn't survive a nuke blast. goku hasn't even tank a planet buster ever in his life. iron man has taken blast from sliver surfer and lived. it's not the size you have to worry about it's the effects from the explosion.
> 
> 
> oh and that fabric explosion looks like the same size as this



But you were use power scaling yourself, which was the point I was making.

You were saying if Iron Mans old armor can tank this then his new one can tank 'X,Y and Z' because it's much stronger.

SSJ3 Goku is roughly equal to Kid Buu who is a casual planet buster. Hence Goku is a casual planet buster himself.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

TWF said:


> That was a gag scene and completely inconsistent with all his other strength feats.
> 
> And it was 40 tons at the end of his limbs, not 40 total.



i know this but still he shouldn't have problems at all with 40 tons on each limbs if he' has 100 ton strength. shows that he really doesn't have 100 ton strength like so many though


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

^Oh, you have no problem using a low end feat that contradicts all his previous feats? Now if this was a comic book character you'd disregard it as a low end showing.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

Cooler said:


> the original LT calculation.
> 
> the original LT calculation.
> 
> ...




that's what you would call power scaling? i though power scaling was something else oh well my bad. 

even if he is iron man can absorb the attack


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> ^Oh, you have no problem using a low end feat that contradicts all his previous feats? Now if this was a comic book character you'd disregard it as a low end showing.



i was just pointing out something about goku that's all. becuz of what someone said about goku easily ripping iron man apart.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, his current armor is his strongest yet (well, excluding Thorbuster). Its power source was compared to a star.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The fight ended here, Goku has no feat coming close to this and it's already established Tony has the H4X and thinking speed. Kamehameha can be dodged. SSJ3 takes a toll on his body as well.


----------



## Fang (Jun 3, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> i know this but still he shouldn't have problems at all with 40 tons on each limbs if he' has 100 ton strength. shows that he really doesn't have 100 ton strength like so many though



Think about what you just said.

Also isometric weight lifting isn't like normal weight lifting, someone can bench press or military press half a ton and struggle hard jogging with 5lb weights on their legs.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> that's what you would call power scaling? i though power scaling was something else oh well my bad.
> 
> even if he is iron man can absorb the attack



I have yet to see evidence he can absorb a planet buster from Goku. 

Also is Iron Man being FTL a consistant showing?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

Ironman's showing should vary based on what armor he's using so it could just be exclusive to certain armor like this. Regardless he can still dodge, thinks faster and has various nasty H4X. The only point in seeing if Tony can absorb a planet buster is just that. It will however not matter if he can or cannot for this battle.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Well if he's not consistantly faster than Goku then he won't be dodging anything...

Thinking faster won't help him if he can't move his body fast enough to stop Goku's attacks. Tony does have some nasty things he can use on Goku but none of them seem anymore effective than Goku firing a planet buster in Iron Mans face.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

Did you pay attention to what I said?



> Ironman's showing should vary based on what armor he's using so it could just be exclusive to certain armor like this



His showings are based on what armor he has. If this armor grants such speed then he has such speed. In which case he'll not only dodge, he'll blitz. Oh and thinking at such absurb speeds means he'll be able to process a strategy before Goku could even think of doing anything.



> *Thinking faster won't help him if he can't move his body fast enough to stop Goku's attacks*. Tony does have some nasty things he can use on Goku but none of them seem anymore effective than Goku firing a planet buster in Iron Mans face



So his mind can operate at super computer like speeds and apparantly the rest of him as a result can't react faster due to such heightened performance? Alright even if we go by what you say when has Goku tagged someone with such speed again? He can teleport too.  Tony has nasty H4X which is more than just offensive like being able to track teleporation, precog, enhanced reactions/thinking, teleporting, time travel etc. 

The whole point of EM posting this info is to show Tony is faster and more versatile. I'm not downplaying Goku but from what I've seen here it seems this armor of Ironman would win.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Did you pay attention to what I said?



I did.



> His showings are based on what armor he has. If this armor grants such speed then he has such speed. In which case he'll not only dodge, he'll blitz. Oh and thinking at such absurb speeds means he'll be able to process a strategy before Goku could even think of doing anything.



Yes but the question is whether FTL speeds are consistant with that particular armor or not? 



> So his mind can operate at super computer like speeds and apparantly the rest of him as a result can't react faster due to such heightened performance? Alright even if we go by what you say when has Goku tagged someone with such speed again? He can teleport too.  Tony has nasty H4X which is more than just offensive like being able to track teleporation, precog, enhanced reactions/thinking, teleporting, time travel etc.



Having an enhanced brain capable of thinking at insane speeds doesn't mean his body can move at those speeds...

Goku's never fought a FTL opponent, but is Iron Man FTL or is the sun trip an outlier? It's a simple question and a reasonable one. If Iron Man is consistantly FTL then Goku get's blitzed and there's nothing he can do however EM thinks this match is tight. Therefore I'm asking what a consistant speed for Iron Man is...



> The whole point of EM posting this info is to show Tony is faster and more versatile.



Yet EM said it was a tight match so I assume it's not as black and white as you think. Which is why I'm asking questions. I just want to get a decent grasp of what Iron Man can do...


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

TWF said:


> Think about what you just said.
> 
> Also isometric weight lifting isn't like normal weight lifting, someone can bench press or military press half a ton and struggle hard jogging with 5lb weights on their legs.



do you read marvel comics at all?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 3, 2010)

what in the hell does that have to do anything with his argument


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 3, 2010)

> it took the time it took hulk to walk a few paces actually



Doesn't mean much. Hulk's speed is nothing to brag about.

I agree it could wreck Goku, but he'd need to trick the monkey into lowering his guard and or building it up and then forcing a close-mid-range scenario. And we both already covered the fact it's a last resort move so by then Goku would be too tired to dodge anyway.



> nothing I have seen from goku outside of powerscaling and abc logic suggests to me he can just pop off planet leveling attacks with no strain on him or charge time



This is the most casual planet-buster in the series, coming from an opponent Goku was dead even with, and it took said opponent no visible effort with one hand:

the original LT calculation.
the original LT calculation.
the original LT calculation.

The problem will be his strain from SSJ3, so he can only fire a couple. 



> This has nothing to do with it.



I've seen your handiwork in other threads Cubey. :toliet



> besides the Atomic Bombings of Hirshima and nagasaki are a better description of what western comics do to 85% of manga



As amusing as those examples are to sick, twisted minds like ours, it might earn you a neg or two from disgruntled Asians...



> The fight ended here, Goku has no feat coming close to this and it's already established Tony has the H4X and thinking speed. Kamehameha can be dodged. SSJ3 takes a toll on his body as well.



Not necessarily. He mentioned that it was an older model that encircled the sun. You can't powerscale unless it's actually stated that the current armor is faster.

Either way, we've been factoring that since page 1. It's a travel-speed feet and won't automatically give him an insurmountable advantage.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> This is the most casual planet-buster in the series, coming from an opponent Goku was dead even with, and it took said opponent no visible effort with one hand:
> 
> the original LT calculation.
> the original LT calculation.
> ...



It's also debatable whether Kid Buu was even powered up when he went to casually planet bust the Earth. Vegeta later comments after witnessing Kid Buu's fight with SSJ3 Goku that Buu is stronger than he imagined. 

Kid Buu's being able to casually planet bust didn't seem to be anything all that impressive to the Saiyans, it was only the fact he did it right off the bat that shocked them.

The strain from SSJ3 is massive but he can maintain it long enough to fire off some big ki attacks.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> what in the hell does that have to do anything with his argument





i am asking this because if he doesn't know the strength levels in marvel and ask for his argument. that doesn't make any sense to me at all


----------



## Fang (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't know the strength levels in Marvel how


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 3, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> i am asking this because if he doesn't know the strength levels in marvel and ask for his argument. that doesn't make any sense to me at all


he said he doesn't give a shit about this thread and only pointed out that the 40 ton feat is a low-end outlier 

what's so hard to grasp about that


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

TWF said:


> I don't know the strength levels in Marvel how



i ask asking you i am not saying you don't


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> he said he doesn't give a shit about this thread and only pointed out that the 40 ton feat is a low-end outlier
> 
> what's so hard to grasp about that




 that was just a waste of time to even post then wtf.. i just pointed out something someone was saying that's all


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

What does that have to do with Goku's 40 ton feat being a low end showing? Yes Goku is'nt punching Iron man's head off but what you said is equally wrong.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 3, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> i am asking this because if he doesn't know the strength levels in marvel and ask for his argument. that doesn't make any sense to me at all



He [TWF] knows how the class system works.

Goku's 40-ton feat should be dismissed for a number of reasons. It's simple.

-He has already demonstrated strength feats far exceeding what he's shown in the scenario where he struggles with 40 tons.
-He lifts/causes more damage than that on a consistent basis.
-It was a gag.
-Therefore, it should be dismissed.

Let me give an example just to make sure there's no holes:

-Sam is a superhuman
-He can run faster than a car and catches bullets to save old ladies.
-Suddenly, a regular human throws a rock at him. He is fully aware, but somehow cannot dodge and is knocked out. This is what we'd call an outlier feat and should be ignored since it's inconsistent with everything else.

Goku has demonstrated enough strength in his legs to topple small mountains in his base form. Even we're talking static (lifting) strength, the 40-ton thing should be ignored since he tossed Giant Piccolo.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 3, 2010)

Let's not forget Tao's feat which was early DB.


----------



## God (Jun 3, 2010)

Question, what can Iron Man do to actually hurt Goku? I know EM posted feats before, but I'm not searching through 140 posts.


----------



## Heavenly King (Jun 3, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> What does that have to do with Goku's 40 ton feat being a low end showing? Yes Goku is'nt punching Iron man's head off but what you said is equally wrong.




ok let me asking you something do you think goku blitz iron man is going to do something to him.



Cygnus45 said:


> He [TWF] knows how the class system works.
> 
> Goku's 40-ton feat should be dismissed for a number of reasons. It's simple.
> 
> ...




iight.. let me ask you how strong you think goku is overall


----------



## Cooler (Jun 3, 2010)

Goku also jumped a dozen kilometers into the air at the 21st Budokai.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 3, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Doesn't mean much. Hulk's speed is nothing to brag about.



well while I'm not one of the proponents of hulk = lightspeed/ftl argument he is massively hypersonic when severely enraged and is supersonic when in base (he can keep pace with Ben a guy who can thunder clap out ICBM's and blow away with his breathe rpgs and bazookas and what not their speed not being an issue to him)

mind you hulk was casually walking towards him and not running iirc but it couldn;t have been more then two or three seconds

which yeah is a long time for guys as fast as tony and goku but gokus strongest techs should take just as long



Cygnus45 said:


> ]I agree it could wreck Goku, but he'd need to trick the monkey into lowering his guard and or building it up and then forcing a close-mid-range scenario. And we both already covered the fact it's a last resort move so by then Goku would be too tired to dodge anyway.



assuming Gokus not suffering a nanite imitation of the ebola virus by then..and is too slow/afflicted to dodge

he still will be wounded and rather seriously by tony's main repulsers/attacks

like I said neither one can afford to get too close to the other..for prolonged periods of times...but tony likely can take it longer




Cygnus45 said:


> This is the most casual planet-buster in the series, coming from an opponent Goku was dead even with, and it took said opponent no visible effort with one hand:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



the issue with kid buu was that he had..virtually limitless stamina..and seemed never to tire

so him doing that with that ease...and goku replicating it when he clearly did not possess that advantage and was close to loosing as a result...is a bit iffy




Cygnus45 said:


> As amusing as those examples are to sick, twisted minds like ours, it might earn you a neg or two from disgruntled Asians...



no offense meant to actual Japanese but much offense meant to the raging weeboos

also I'm not sure how many Asians would be pissed..Japan seems to get no love in its region politically



Cygnus45 said:


> Not necessarily. He mentioned that it was an older model that encircled the sun. You can't powerscale unless it's actually stated that the current armor is faster.



his suits are usually faster/stronger then the previous ones and if this suit is noted to be outright better then his last..its a fair assumption

oh and cooler again his shields are based off Shi'ar technology planet busters do not necessarily pose an issue to their shields at all

that being said  his shields aren't that powerful but can and will absorb gokus energy to a degree

and goku wont be hurling out planet killing attacks as easy as you claim


----------



## Itachi1994 (Jun 3, 2010)

No they wouldnt


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 3, 2010)

Itachi1994 said:


> No they wouldnt



what are you talking about?


----------



## Raigen (Jun 3, 2010)

Actually he would be shootin planet-busters quite often, just usually the things he hits are tough enough to absorb the impact and not destroy the planet in the process. Or he could just used focused beams to rip Tony to pieces. Quite doubt Tony can withstand hundreds of thousands of beams lighting him up in rapid succession. And you really need to get off the bit about charge time. You're still pulling that from the anime. It took Piccolo an instant to whip up a moon-buster so really there's no cause to say it'll take someone thousands of times more powerful than that to lob out attacks on a much higher scale than that like candy from a float in a parade.


----------



## Es (Jun 4, 2010)

Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> LOLRaigen.


I was going to say that


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 4, 2010)

> iight.. let me ask you how strong you think goku is overall



Plenty strong enough to tangle with Tony. Not enough to wreck his suit with 2 punches, but enough to cause serious damage with lots of combos. It'll be dangerous for him to get close, however, due to the nanite technology and black-hole manipulation.



> well while I'm not one of the proponents of hulk = lightspeed/ftl argument he is massively hypersonic when severely enraged and is supersonic when in base (he can keep pace with Ben a guy who can thunder clap out ICBM's and blow away with his breathe rpgs and bazookas and what not their speed not being an issue to him)



No time frame is given, but I'll take your word for it that it only takes a few seconds.

I wonder what would happen in a showdown, when both fighters are fatigued. Full power warp-kamehameha vs All-out kamikaze repulsor blast? 



> the issue with kid buu was that he had..virtually limitless stamina..and seemed never to tire
> 
> so him doing that with that ease...and goku replicating it when he clearly did not possess that advantage and was close to loosing as a result...is a bit iffy



Kid Boo's stamina was nearly limitless, his chi was not. When two people are stated to be dead-even, they have roughly the same amount of chi, as well as the same potency for oblivion.

Let me repeat: Goku would not last 2 minutes if they were that far apart. Yet they were dead even trading blow-for-blow. If Kid Boo had the advantage you're claiming he did, he would have simply nuked Goku to death.

Goku CAN fire casual planet-wreckers, but not for a long time due to the SSJ3 strain.



> his suits are usually faster/stronger then the previous ones and if this suit is noted to be outright better then his last..its a fair assumption



Then he dodges at least 80% of the chi attacks if it's long-range. Mid-to-close range will be iffy.

It would seem long range would be a stalemate with Goku eventually getting tired trying to tag him with an attack, while at close quarters, it's 60-40 in Iron Man's favor. If Tony plays it smart, he can make Goku uses his stamina and strength against him and pull a win.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 4, 2010)

How about we give Goku a dead body? So the strain from SSJ3 is negated. 

Does that change peoples opinions at all?


----------



## Fang (Jun 4, 2010)

If you give him a dead body then he's dead.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 4, 2010)

...you know what I mean.

The body he had in the afterlife when training etc...


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 4, 2010)

The problem is still in the fact that Tony is much faster, more versatile and durable enough to take some hits from Goku. How will Goku connect when his opponent is lightspeed and can teleport? Goku in afterlife is stronger due to lacking strain but not going to matter.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Tony's suit can let him survive in space right?



Yes



Cygnus45 said:


> -What is the extent of his anti-matter manipulation?



Basically an antimatter beam weapon



> Are his black-holes used in regular combat?



Not often



> -Brain hacking would be pointles, lol. Goku's a rock.



He still has synapses and intelligence.



Darklyre said:


> The Genki Dama runs off of ki gathered from the environment and from other people. That, Gotenks' ghost attacks, Buu's candy beam, and Dabura's stone spit are pretty much the only projectile attacks I can remember from DBZ that aren't made of your own ki.



You forgot 16's rocket fists 



Cygnus45 said:


> As for 18, she learned it from Kuririn himself.



This is completely irrelevant to the debate but I would like to know your source for this information. 



> Inconsistent with the fact Grey Boo had bullets bouncing off of his skin only 10 pages earlier, not to mention Vegeta and Goku being able to create craters in his skin from their punches.



It really makes more sense to say that Buu's body composition can be altered in texture and hardness at will.



Stermor said:


> what would stop goku from teleporting to the other side of the galaxy and powering up a massive kamehameha then teleporting back into ironmans face?? maybe iron man can react to it but he won't be able to dogde...



The fact that the fight takes place in an empty dimension? There are no other planets or ki signatures for him to lock on to. Also due to his tracking powers he would be able to react to it since he would be able to move a split - second before Goku arrived.



FanB0y said:


> Has Goku ever used IT in the middle of charging a Kamehameha?



Yes



Cooler said:


> I think the 'power of a star' comment is being overestimated. The luminonsity of our sun is roughly 4 x 10^26 W's per second, which is orders of magnitude less than planet busting. Goku himself puts out star levels of energy...



"watts per second?"

Watts is already joules per second.



> Has an upper limit for Iron Man's energy absorption been demonstrated?



He was able to absorb attacks from a pissed off Thor, but he went down when Thor really turned up the juice. Of course that was in his Extremis armor which is weaker than his current armor.



Cooler said:


> Has Iron Man absorbed the energy from planet busters before?



Yes he has. Thor, Surfer, Gladiator, etc.



> And even if he has, Goku's planet busters are way beyond the minimum requirements to destroy a planet.



So are all of those guys I just mentioned.



hadomaru said:


> So perhaps IM takes this 55/45?



Really I would say it is pretty even.



TWF said:


> I'd still like to see more explanation/fluff on that black hole.



The scans I posted were pretty much all there was to it. It was a one-shot weapon used by SHIELD.



Cygnus45 said:


> Which he should be able to do considering the sun-circling feat. If Goku tags him with a kick or chi-blasts, it's mayday mayday.



But even if he kills him Goku would still die if the nanites had begun their infection.



Itachi1994 said:


> Seriously. Goku vs ironman. There is a big diffence in strength in american comics and current japanese manga. Goku at full strenght would pull him apart.



LOL



Raigen said:


> Mokona takes 85% of American comics and sucks them into his mouth Kirby style, where they never appear again, and then goes; "Pu Pu!"



Then TOAA takes 100% of anime/manga and rapes it up the ass with his pencil.



> But never mind that. What's Tony's actual current speed? Not a random guess at what his armor does. Give us an actual estimate.



At the very least, hundreds of km per second. Calcing the feat where his armor intercepted the bullets from orbit before they hit him, we get something crazy like mach 29000. Some feats are questionably FTL. Anyway I think the best answer is "at least as fast as Goku".



> And we already know Piccolo casually moonbusted in DBZ pre Saiyan arrival. We know Kaioken multiplies everything about the user; speed, power, strength, senses, etc. Goku by Freeza Saga had mastered up to 20xKK (which means 20x his Power Level). Going by the numbers, SSJ is a 50x increase with FPSSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 being much, much higher on the power spectrum.



Power levels are useless for cross-universe comparisons, this has been established so many times before that you're just trolling by bringing it up. Use actual feats or I'll pull some bullshit powerscaling myself like Iron Man KO'd Hulk in one punch who was able to break Onslaught's armor that was unbreakable even to reality warpers.



> Now, I don't care much for the transformations and I don't care what kind of power core Tony has because that doesn't say jack about the actual force of his own attacks. And Tony's pschometry isn't very helpful here given Goku doesn't have nor use tech. He doesn't even have a drivers license.



Like I said, he can hack organic systems.



Cooler said:


> I have yet to see evidence he can absorb a planet buster from Goku.



He's taken attacks from people who have actual planet busting feats, unlike Goku. 



> Also is Iron Man being FTL a consistant showing?



I doubt it. In fact I don't think he actually can go FTL except under rare circumstances, or when he has specialized tech he doesn't normally use.



Cygnus45 said:


> Doesn't mean much. Hulk's speed is nothing to brag about.



Do I need to post all of my Hulk speed feats again?



Cygnus45 said:


> Goku has demonstrated enough strength in his legs to topple small mountains in his base form. Even we're talking static (lifting) strength, the 40-ton thing should be ignored since he tossed Giant Piccolo.



Even though I basically agree about the 40 tons, it should be pointed out that giant form Piccolo would not necessarily weigh much more than that, and furthermore he used leverage to do that.



Raigen said:


> Actually he would be shootin planet-busters quite often, just usually the things he hits are tough enough to absorb the impact and not destroy the planet in the process.



So random rocks on DBZ earth = planet level durability. Wow, another gem from Raigen, almost up there with "nuke level telepathy".



> Or he could just used focused beams to rip Tony to pieces. Quite doubt Tony can withstand hundreds of thousands of beams lighting him up in rapid succession.



ROFLMAO

When has Goku, or anyone else in the series, ever done anything like this ever? No one has even demonstrated the ability to fire more than a few dozen ki blasts in a rapid timeframe.



> And you really need to get off the bit about charge time. You're still pulling that from the anime. It took Piccolo an instant to whip up a moon-buster so really there's no cause to say it'll take someone thousands of times more powerful than that to lob out attacks on a much higher scale than that like candy from a float in a parade.



Which is why Vegeta had to spend a lot of time powering up his Final Flash until Trunks said it was a planetbuster? Or why the same thing happened with Goku and Cell's Kamehamehas? Yes, I know that SSJ3 is stronger and, going by Kid Buu's example, can probably string at least a few together before needing to charge, but SSJ3 can only last for a few minutes, and if he wastes most of his attack power immediately on attacks that Tony can dodge, he'll be in a bad way.

Really, the way I see it is this:

Physical Strength: This goes to Tony. I can prove it if you want.
Speed: Toss-up
Durability: Probably overall durability is Goku's, but Tony has a bunch of defenses that can equal or surpass Goku's durability
Firepower: Goku
Intelligence: Tony, by far
Versatility/Brokeness: Tony

I still say it could go either way.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 4, 2010)

EM why would you say speed is a toss up?:
destroyed a building sized area



> He has some insane feats, such as reaching the sun and traveling around it in a few minutes (and that was with one of his old armors), also outrunning a black hole on earth



I would assume Tony would have the egde?


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 4, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Physical Strength: This goes to Tony. I can prove it if you want.



Really? 

Not saying that he doesn't, but can you bring the scans it would be cool to see them.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 4, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> Plenty strong enough to tangle with Tony. Not enough to wreck his suit with 2 punches, but enough to cause serious damage with lots of combos. It'll be dangerous for him to get close, however, due to the nanite technology and black-hole manipulation.[



Goku's not surviving prolonged repulser attacks also..so both guys need to stay out of range

IM only needs a second to infect him with nanites though 

[Q





Cygnus45 said:


> No time frame is given, but I'll take your word for it that it only takes a few seconds.



it didn't seem like he had very much time to do anything it was all "he's coming at me..can;t get away I'M AH FIREN MAH LAZUR" 



Cygnus45 said:


> I wonder what would happen in a showdown, when both fighters are fatigued. Full power warp-kamehameha vs All-out kamikaze repulsor blast?



just based on what it did to hulk I'd give it the edge

keep in mind this an old feet with a more primitive suit iirc



Cygnus45 said:


> Kid Boo's stamina was nearly limitless, his chi was not. When two people are stated to be dead-even, they have roughly the same amount of chi, as well as the same potency for oblivion.



why wouldn't his chi be the same? he certainly;y never tired once..while goku did 


Cygnus45 said:


> Let me repeat: Goku would not last 2 minutes if they were that far apart. Yet they were dead even trading blow-for-blow. If Kid Boo had the advantage you're claiming he did, he would have simply nuked Goku to death


.

yet what your describing came close to reality..when he eventually just wore goku right the fuck out



Cygnus45 said:


> Goku CAN fire casual planet-wreckers, but not for a long time due to the SSJ3 strain.



I wanna see some feats man



Cygnus45 said:


> Then he dodges at least 80% of the chi attacks if it's long-range. Mid-to-close range will be iffy.



close range has defenses...he should be able to hold out slightly longer then goku with 




Cygnus45 said:


> It would seem long range would be a stalemate with Goku eventually getting tired trying to tag him with an attack, while at close quarters, it's 60-40 in Iron Man's favor. If Tony plays it smart, he can make Goku uses his stamina and strength against him and pull a win.



honeslty all he has to do is fly into gokus range touch him..then run the fuck away and plasy keep away for as long as it takes him to either shut down gokus brain...or melt his guts

@ Cooler most of the guys EM mentioned are also capable of soloing the z-senshi..but IM while able to take attacks from them...would not last very long in a prolonged fight I'm sure

so yeah he can take it..but not for ever not at **their level** not sure about z guys though maybe longer...maybe the same time


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 4, 2010)

> why wouldn't his chi be the same? he certainly;y never tired once..while goku did



Then the androids have almost infinite ki due to not being limited by the Z fighters level of stamina. Piccolo for example was about even with android 17 but would have lost due to stamina issues eventually.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 4, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Then the androids have almost infinite ki due to not being limited by the Z fighters level of stamina. Piccolo for example was about even with android 17 but would have lost due to stamina issues eventually.



they could bring about the same amount of energy...regardless of how long the fight was lasting

seems to me like they kinda did have limitless endurance/power

it's not like I think they could punch out of their weight class or anything...or fire off obscene level attacks because they don;t have a limit more as..them and buu seemed to be able to keep going and sustaining that level of fire..when goku couldn't


----------



## Fang (Jun 4, 2010)

Goku had to swap out at least twice with Vegeta and Mr. Buu during his fight with Kid Buu because of the drain and pain the Super Saiyan 3 form puts on his body.

He is inferior to Kid Buu.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> EM why would you say speed is a toss up?:
> destroyed a building sized area
> 
> 
> ...



Thing is, quantifiable feats that put him in that range are not quite common enough.

Although it should be mentioned that he does have weapons which fire at lightspeed and can be computer targeted.



tobiah arronax said:


> Really?
> 
> Not saying that he doesn't, but can you bring the scans it would be cool to see them.



Well first of all, the ability to go HtH with class 100 (in the real definition of the word) fighters, he even KO'd Hulk once (although all of the circuits in his armor fused afterward - this was an old armor BTW). Then we have him and Thing destroying a mountain by the side effect of their physical clash. He, Thor, and Vision once lifted a rock created by Terrax the Tamer that was stated to weigh millions of tons.


----------



## God (Jun 4, 2010)

And since his computer works at .00001 or something, of a second, that would mean they would target Goku faster than Goku can react and blast him as well.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 4, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Thing is, quantifiable feats that put him in that range are not quite common enough.
> 
> Although it should be mentioned that he does have weapons which fire at lightspeed and can be computer targeted.



What sort of weapons? 



> Well first of all, the ability to go HtH with class 100 (in the real definition of the word) fighters, he even KO'd Hulk once (although all of the circuits in his armor fused afterward - this was an old armor BTW). Then we have him and Thing destroying a mountain by the side effect of their physical clash. He, Thor, and Vision once lifted a rock created by Terrax the Tamer that was stated to weigh millions of tons.



Goku couldn't go hand to hand with class 100's? Obviously the top tiers would destroy him in a purely physical fight but I think Goku's striking force is being underated.

Were they sharing the millions of tons equally? Isn't Tao's feat in the hundreds of thousands of tons range and that's olnly Dragon Ball.

I wouldn't think Goku is outmatched in the strength department.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 4, 2010)

Class 100 here is planetary strength. Mind you Thor and Hercules in a test of strength threatened to tilt the axis of the Earth and Hulk destroyed something 2xEarth.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

Cooler said:


> What sort of weapons?



Focused lasers, various energy beams 



> Goku couldn't go hand to hand with class 100's? Obviously the top tiers would destroy him in a purely physical fight but I think Goku's striking force is being underated.



Not with guys like Thor, Hulk, Juggernaut and Surfer



> Were they sharing the millions of tons equally? Isn't Tao's feat in the hundreds of thousands of tons range and that's olnly Dragon Ball.



Nope, it was thousands of pounds. Not tons.



> I wouldn't think Goku is outmatched in the strength department.



Trust me, he is. Another feat is stopping a huge meteor from hitting a city with just pure strength (and keep in mind the velocity that meteors travel at)

Also I've never seen a strength feat from Goku to match this:


----------



## Fang (Jun 4, 2010)

EM, not that it really matters but I remember Estrecca doing a calc for Base Goku's kicking Freeza through the islands in triple digit megatons.

I tried finding the thread but couldn't since it was way back in late 07. How does that stack up?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

TWF said:


> EM, not that it really matters but I remember Estrecca doing a calc for Base Goku's kicking Freeza through the islands in triple digit megatons.



That must have been a fucked up calc since it's nowhere near that. I would probably say it's not even a kiloton.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 4, 2010)

TWF said:


> EM, not that it really matters but I remember Estrecca doing a calc for Base Goku's kicking Freeza through the islands in triple digit megatons.



not really, he said it was like 400 tons, though Estrecca said he went really conservative


----------



## Fang (Jun 4, 2010)

Never mind then.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 4, 2010)

No it isn't. Class 100 just means you're capable of lifting/benching 100 tons. Usually just add the + on the end of that as a note that the person in question exceeds that. Marvel stopped ranking strength after class 100. Usually it just means we stop ranking it as most of the class 100 people far exceed the given value. Hulk lifted a mountain, which is hundreds of millions or billions of tons. Guess what class that makes him?

Also, the DB people are well into the class 100 range. They're just not adept with lifting strength as opposed to striking power. Goku and Krillin pre-Roshi training had to push a 20ton boulder just so he'd teach them. You can be most assured that they got much stronger since that event. 23rd Budokai Goku lifting and tossing a giant sized Piccolo for one. Then of course is the multiplication factor of KK and the SSJ transformations. Even if, say, Goku was class 50 when fighting Vegeta. 4xKK would make him class 200. 

Nothing in comparison to the Hulk, but then he gets more than 10x stronger by the time he faces the Ginyu Force with a base level of 90k, which skyrockets to 3mil when he fights Freeza. I would have to say he' well over class 100 by then. These guys do connect punches which shatter mountains and small islands and sends tidal waves ripping across places. Then comes the multiplier for SSJ which is 50x. I would have to say their striking force is well into the class 100+ range. DBZ just sucks at any lifting feats.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 4, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Focused lasers, various energy beams



What sort of damage do they do? Goku will have planet+ durability versus energy attacks/ki attacks.



> Nope, it was thousands of pounds. Not tons.



I'm pretty sure it was tons? 



> Trust me, he is. Another feat is stopping a huge meteor from hitting a city with just pure strength (and keep in mind the velocity that meteors travel at)
> 
> Also I've never seen a strength feat from Goku to match this:



Pure lifting feats have never  been apart of DBZ, striking power wise Goku has a lot of force.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

Raigen said:


> No it isn't. Class 100 just means you're capable of lifting/benching 100 tons.



Not the way Marvel uses it.



> Usually just add the + on the end of that as a note that the person in question exceeds that. Marvel stopped ranking strength after class 100. Usually it just means we stop ranking it as most of the class 100 people far exceed the given value. Hulk lifted a mountain, which is hundreds of millions or billions of tons. Guess what class that makes him?



Yet class 80 characters routinely have feats in the thousands or millions of tons.



> Also, the DB people are well into the class 100 range.



Going by the literal definition, yes. Going by the applied definition, no.



> They're just not adept with lifting strength as opposed to striking power. Goku and Krillin pre-Roshi training had to push a 20ton boulder just so he'd teach them. You can be most assured that they got much stronger since that event.



Which is a lot easier than actually picking it up. I can move my 500 pound big screen TV across the floor easily but there's no way I could ever lift it.



> 23rd Budokai Goku lifting and tossing a giant sized Piccolo for one.



He used leverage (a judo throw), and he wouldn't have weighed more than a few dozen tons anyway.



> Then of course is the multiplication factor of KK and the SSJ transformations. Even if, say, Goku was class 50 when fighting Vegeta. 4xKK would make him class 200.



Physical strength and other stats don't scale directly like that. I've debunked this bullshit before. 



> Nothing in comparison to the Hulk, but then he gets more than 10x stronger by the time he faces the Ginyu Force with a base level of 90k, which skyrockets to 3mil when he fights Freeza. I would have to say he' well over class 100 by then. These guys do connect punches which shatter mountains and small islands and sends tidal waves ripping across places.



No they don't.



> Then comes the multiplier for SSJ which is 50x. I would have to say their striking force is well into the class 100+ range. DBZ just sucks at any lifting feats.



Power levels do not scale linearly with physical stats. Get it through your thick head.



> What sort of damage do they do? Goku will have planet+ durability versus energy attacks/ki attacks.



They can target atoms at nanometer scale and do a bunch of other funk things that durability really won't matter against.



> I'm pretty sure it was tons?



Nope. Go look it up.



> Pure lifting feats have never been apart of DBZ, striking power wise Goku has a lot of force.



Not as much as someone who can KO the Hulk or trade blows with Thor.


----------



## Fang (Jun 4, 2010)

Actually they do have some higher end feats of physical strength, EM, and according to Genyosai, the speed in which their fists travel with their actual regular strength would be ridiculous.

But anyways, I don't want to argue the same side of this with Raigen.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2010)

Not feats that are comparable to true class 100s


----------



## God (Jun 4, 2010)

TWF said:


> Actually they do have some higher end feats of physical strength, EM, and according to Genyosai, the speed in which their fists travel with their actual regular strength would be ridiculous.
> 
> *But anyways, I don't want to argue the same side of this with Raigen.*



This is what most threads boil down to as I've noticed, lol.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 4, 2010)

That's cause everyone knows that agreeing with me brings the world one step closer to imploding in on itself and collapsing the universe into a giant singularity. :ho


----------



## God (Jun 4, 2010)

...........


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 4, 2010)

Raigen said:


> That's cause everyone knows that agreeing with me brings the world one step closer to imploding in on itself and collapsing the universe into a giant singularity. :ho



Don't flatter yourself.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Jun 4, 2010)

Can his current armor get his other previous armors?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 4, 2010)

I give this match to Iron Man 



You don't fuck with that suit. Energy equivalent to the power of a star? Has Goku ever in his life ever got hit with such power?


----------



## Raigen (Jun 4, 2010)

Uh, you do know that's only the power core that supplies his suit. If Tony were capable of releasing that all at once, he'd fry himself and he'd make himself powerless after one burst. Besides, Goku finds Tony so uninformed about Saiyans he takes the time to explain it all. During which, Tony's armor starts goin haywire just trying to keep measuring the increase in Goku's power each time....as well as trying to keep from either laughing or crying while seeing Goku's hair change. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMK6YXyT6Fc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 4, 2010)

> This is completely irrelevant to the debate but I would like to know your source for this information



Speculation on my part. She did not know the technique before marrying Kuririn and knew it afterwards. Not everyone can do it, and the bald midget is adept at it.



> Even though I basically agree about the 40 tons, it should be pointed out that giant form Piccolo would not necessarily weigh much more than that, and furthermore he used leverage to do that.



that's what I was getting at.



basch71 said:


> I give this match to Iron Man
> 
> 
> 
> You don't fuck with that suit. Energy equivalent to the power of a star? Has Goku ever in his life ever got hit with such power?



Gooku haz taken enrgy quiva1ent to a solar-system before 11!

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Tony this time around. Let it be known this was the strongest version of his suit, however.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 5, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Uh, you do know that's only the power core that supplies his suit. If Tony were capable of releasing that all at once, he'd fry himself and he'd make himself powerless after one burst. "
> 
> His lasers are juiced by his power source which guess what it is? If we allow filler, both Cooler and Baby were destroyed after getting blasted into the sun. Yeah, no DBZ character can beat star power. Just ask Mario.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 5, 2010)

If we take the power of a star comment litterally then Goku has he totally stomped in power output.

Our star outputs some 4 x 10^26 Joules per second, that's nothing compared to what Goku can put out considering he can casually bust the Earth (which requires 10^32 Joules).

DBZ Movies aren't filler, they're non canon. There is a difference.



> Not as much as someone who can KO the Hulk or trade blows with Thor.



Goku at SSJ3 could rip Cell in half and Cell has planet level durability.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 5, 2010)

Cooler said:


> If we take the power of a star comment litterally then Goku has he totally stomped in power output.
> 
> Our star outputs some 4 x 10^26 Joules per second, that's nothing compared to what Goku can put out considering he can casually bust the Earth (which requires 10^32 Joules).
> 
> DBZ Movies aren't filler, they're non canon. There is a difference.



Technicality

Same difference, different name. Fillers aren't canon, period.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jun 5, 2010)

Cooler said:


> If we take the power of a star comment litterally then Goku has he totally stomped in power output.
> 
> Our star outputs some 4 x 10^26 Joules per second, that's nothing compared to what Goku can put out considering he can casually bust the Earth (which requires 10^32 Joules).
> 
> ...



Not really considering filler isn't canon either


----------



## Cooler (Jun 5, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Technicality
> 
> Same difference, different name. Fillers aren't canon, period.





Emperor Joker said:


> Not really considering filler isn't canon either



Filler is non canon as well obviously...but the Movies aren't filler. The Movies are a seperate continuity, they're not extra bits added to Manga story.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 5, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Not really considering filler isn't canon either



Me personally, I call the movies fillers anyway. Unless we're talking about Hajime no Ippo.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 5, 2010)

By powerscaling, Cell and SS2 Gohan would've been starbusters at best. And yes, I'm ignoring the hyperbole crap of Cell's claim of system-busting. I'm going by the Daizenshuu numbers and then estimated increases given via magazines and other sources which puts the upper-tier DBZ cast by end of Cell Saga in the billions. It was my estimation a DBZ'er would need roughly around a 34bil PL in order to destroy an object the size of our sun. After that into Buu saga it's just more powerscaling.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 5, 2010)

So Raigen you refuse to let this thread die and to top of it off you abuse powerscaling and pull/make up numbers to make characters starbusters. For the last time, we don't know power levels after Frieza and SSJ Goku, nevermind you can't tell the correlation between increase in power and power level. Let this thread end, Tony wins.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 5, 2010)

It's things you just refuse to accept, which always seems to be the case when DBZ comes up. Seriously, these guys have gotten to the point their base levels are the equivalent of 50% Freeza (that's 60mil). It's a fairly accurate assessment. They're not made up numbers. I've given a source which derived their numbers from various other sources. I didn't make up numbers for Star busting. It was my estimating based off Piccolo's moon-busting level, comparing the size of the moon to Earth then Earth to Sun and estimated a PL requirement for destroying an object of equivalent size to the Sun.

No one really cares that you hate DBZ. We don't. But you get worked up over nothing any time I or anyone for that matter comes up with an idea or argument that points towards DBZ'ers being even reasonably powerful. And I even discounted the system-busting garbage.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 5, 2010)

Where did you get that their base levels were equal to 50% Frieza? That's still debated amongst the fandom along with other issues. There are no power levels after Goku's SSJ form and Frieza's final form, except  suppressed Trunks being 5. The rest is just powerscaling while not knowing the correlation.

Do you know how much the power levels increase post Frieza?
Do you know how much the destructive power increases for such increases in PL?
Do you even know the power levels post Frieza?

You talk about Starbusting yet Vegeta in USSJ form with Final Flash and Goku in his SSJ form with Kamehameha are still planet busters in Cell saga. After that we know nothing except Cell and SSJ2 Gohan are well above those two. That just makes them more powerful planet busters. Kid Buu did'nt do anything Star busting either.



> No one really cares that you hate DBZ. We don't. But you get worked up over nothing any time I or anyone for that matter comes up with an idea or argument that points towards DBZ'ers being even reasonably powerful. And I even discounted the system-busting garbage



No one really cares if you think I hate DBZ despite the fact I'm a major DBZ supporter. Just because I don't wank my fav fictions/characters like those from Bastard!!, Tenchi Muyo, DBZ etc like you do does'nt mean I hate those verses. This is just as funny as the time you called EM a Tenchi hater. Look, give me proof of starbusting and not basless assumptions and abuse of powerscaling.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 5, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Goku at SSJ3 could rip Cell in half and Cell *has planet level durability.*



bullshit..no..fucking way show me feats of cell displaying planetary durability leave powerscaling the fuck out of it..and give me proof


----------



## Fang (Jun 5, 2010)

Aside from the fact that yeah, Cooler is over-rating Super Saiyan 3 Goku's physical strength. Perfect Cell did purposely let Vegeta damage him with his Final Flash, seeing as how a planet-busting Ki attack couldn't one shot him, he's pretty close.

But yeah whatever, I have no inclination to even want to anything for Goku aside from certain people either wanking it or downplaying it.


----------



## God (Jun 6, 2010)

Had to revive it right?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> If we take the power of a star comment litterally then Goku has he totally stomped in power output.
> 
> Our star outputs some 4 x 10^26 Joules per second, that's nothing compared to what Goku can put out considering he can casually bust the Earth (which requires 10^32 Joules).
> 
> ...


----------



## God (Jun 6, 2010)

He does, he survived a Final Flash as TWF pointed out and a Kamehameha that would have destroyed Earth (unless it was only in the anime)


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cubey said:


> He does, he survived a Final Flash as TWF pointed out and a Kamehameha that would have destroyed Earth (unless it was only in the anime)



He barely tanked them. If Goku's aim was lower, Cell would've been dust.


----------



## God (Jun 6, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He barely tanked them. If Goku's aim was lower, Cell would've been dust.



He survived his own self-destruction which did blow up a planet.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cubey said:


> He survived his own self-destruction which did blow up a planet.



A very small one. Which you can circumnavigate on foot for like a few minutes if you ran.


----------



## God (Jun 6, 2010)

He had to be teleported away because it would blow up Earth as well.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cubey said:


> He had to be teleported away because it would blow up Earth as well.



True. Goku should've done the deed with that Kamehameha if his aim was lower. Nothing will be left after that.


----------



## God (Jun 6, 2010)

Not all planetbusting attacks are capable of vaporizing foes.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Not all planetbusting attacks are capable of vaporizing foes.



Tell that to Cell's entire upper body.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

TWF said:


> Aside from the fact that yeah, Cooler is over-rating Super Saiyan 3 Goku's physical strength. Perfect Cell did purposely let Vegeta damage him with his Final Flash, seeing as how a planet-busting Ki attack couldn't one shot him, he's pretty close.
> 
> But yeah whatever, I have no inclination to even want to anything for Goku aside from certain people either wanking it or downplaying it.



well I'm with you for the class 100 strength..thing maybe not on thor/supes/gladz level but he sure should be low to mid end there

but the cell thing he got blown clear in half..he tanked it because of a broken healing factor..and one that I'm not sure vageta knew about seeing as he thought a headless cell was a dead cell

while it is still impressive I wouldn't necessarily call it planetary level durability or close to it his healing factor is crazy though



Cubey said:


> He does, he survived a Final Flash as TWF pointed out and a Kamehameha that would have destroyed Earth (unless it was only in the anime)



he survived because one of his cells remained the rest of him seemed to have been made gone



Cubey said:


> He survived his own self-destruction which did blow up a planet.



it blew up king kais world but aside from that yeah though cell like buu seemed to rely on healing factor for that rather then outright durability


----------



## Fang (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> well I'm with you for the class 100 strength..thing maybe not on thor/supes/gladz level but he sure should be low to mid end there
> 
> but the cell thing he got blown clear in half..he tanked it because of a broken healing factor..and one that I'm not sure vageta knew about seeing as he thought a headless cell was a dead cell



What are you talking about, even Vegeta admitted the blast was head on and accurately hit him in the chest and only took out a part of his chest and shoulder.

That has nothing to do with his regen for his actual durability.



basch71 said:


> Tell that to Cell's entire upper body.



Yeah except that Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Games is significantly much more powerful than Vegeta who fought him. And that blast was focused upwards, directly at his upper body, from literally point-blank.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

TWF said:


> What are you talking about, even Vegeta admitted the blast was head on and accurately hit him in the chest and only took out a part of his chest and shoulder.



ah right I confused gokus attacks with Vagetas and the resulting injuries whoops


TWF said:


> That has nothing to do with his regen for his actual durability.



shouldn't it count more towards egen though since cell didn;t so much as tank it as he did get a sizable pieced of him torn off? then shrugged that ofv


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> bullshit..no..fucking way show me feats of cell displaying planetary durability leave powerscaling the fuck out of it..and give me proof




Link removed

Link removed

That was Cell's full power Kamehameha + SSJ2 Gohan's Kamehameha that struck him. Both of those attacks are >> any planet buster which came before them and while injured he did have a lot of his body intact.

Based on that I'd say Cell has planet level durability.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Link removed
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



He can tank that Kamehameha. Gohan was fucking with Cell at that point instead of going for the kill. The Father-Son Kamehameha was the real killer. Cell couldn't tank that even with regen. He got vaporized.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He can tank that Kamehameha. Gohan was fucking with Cell at that point instead of going for the kill. The Father-Son Kamehameha was the real killer Cell couldn't tank that even with regen. He got vaporized.



We blatantly see Cell after surviving his own explosion that killed Goku is stronger now than his previous perfect form, fans call this form Super Perfect Cell. He gained the Saiyan's ability to come back stronger after surviving a near death blow from Goku and Vegeta's cells. He has SSJ2 like lightning around him.

There was no Father-Son Kamehameha. It was all Gohan using his latent power since it's stated he was holding back unknowingly. Not changing a thing since it killed him but that was not some low level Earth busting attack. Cooler was refering to Super Perfect Cell obviously since SSJ3 Goku>Any SSJ2 even Gohan. 

Just saying, not commenting on anything else.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 6, 2010)

> There was no Father-Son Kamehameha. It was all Gohan using his latent power since it's stated he was holding back unknowingly.



I know that. I'm just using name people are familiar with when it came to that attack. Gohan did the attack while Goku was his confidence booster.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He can tank that Kamehameha. Gohan was fucking with Cell at that point instead of going for the kill. The Father-Son Kamehameha was the real killer. Cell couldn't tank that even with regen. He got vaporized.



Yes and that Kamehameha he tanked was a planet buster...which shows he has planet level durability...


----------



## ChINaMaN1472 (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Yes and that Kamehameha he tanked was a planet buster...which shows he has planet level durability...



It only matters for certain attacks.  Iron Man still has other ways to deal with him since using his repulsar blasts and trading physical blows aren't his only means of offense.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Yes and that Kamehameha he tanked was a planet buster...which shows he has planet level durability...



what basis do you have to make that claim?


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> what basis do you have to make that claim?



Yeah...you could just read the pages before the ones I posted. The Z fighters shit themselves because Cell is going to blow up the Earth, it's also fairly obvious that Full Power Perfect Cell's most powerful attack is going to be a planet buster considering weaker fighters had already shot planet busters.

Link removed

Cell is hit by his own Kamehameha + Gohans, both of which are > FPSSJ Goku's planet busting Kamehameha > Vegeta's planet busting Final Flash. 

Therefore he was hit by planet busting levels of ki far beyond the minimum requirement to destroy the Earth.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Yeah...you could just read the pages before the ones I posted. The Z fighters shit themselves because Cell is going to blow up the Earth, it's also fairly obvious that Full Power Perfect Cell's most powerful attack is going to be a planet buster considering weaker fighters had already shot planet busters.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...




you think I care about character statements and powerscaling? show me some actual proof man


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you think I care about character statements and powerscaling? show me some actual proof man



It is proof. His attack is stated to be a planet buster, it's also far more powerful than other attacks previously stated to be planet busters. Therefore it is a planet buster. 

Character statements can't just be ignored without reason, how about you prove why those character statements can't be trusted?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> It is proof. His attack is stated to be a planet buster, it's also far more powerful than other attacks previously stated to be planet busters. Therefore it is a planet buster. ]



yes or no..do you have feats to suggest its planet busting?



Cooler said:


> Character statements can't just be ignored without reason, how about you prove why those character statements can't be trusted?



they can be ignored perfectly fine when their not backed up by feats


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes or no..do you have feats to suggest its planet busting?



There's only Freeza destroying Namek but that was a chain reaction and it was only implied he could have done it in one shot.



> they can be ignored perfectly fine when their not backed up by feats



So in other words you have no reason to ignore or discredit their statements. Thanks.

So by you're reckoning the only planet busters in DB are people stronger than Kid Buu? And the supposed planet busters of the Cell Saga's weren't really planet busters at all?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2010)

While I've already acknowledged Ironman wins.



> they can be ignored perfectly fine when their not backed up by feats



Powerscaling is applicable in the OBD and Cell was scared enough of the Kamehameha we have no reason to doubt. Yes in OBD all characters stronger than Frieza are planet busters by powerscaling. Character statements can be accepted as long as they are not hyperbole like Cell's solar system busting statement, Trunks someone stronger than Frieza stated Vegeta would blow up the Earth and we see Vegeta deflect some of it into space(Unless that was anime only). 

Imperfect Cell was going to blow up the planet by self destructing. You're basically saying no one in DBZ is a planet buster except Frieza and Kid Buu?Yeah I'm not arguing they have planet busting abilities with their physical attacks but their strongest energy attacks post Frieza most certainly can. 

EDIT Nevermind, I can sense another 5-7 pages shitstorm coming. Take my argument under consideration.


----------



## Fang (Jun 6, 2010)

Cell also survived a stronger Kamahama Ha from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, who overpowered his own, sans losing a couple limbs.

Basically his own powered up attack (which we have statements being a planet-buster) was absorbed and powered back in his face by Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's own.

Also why is this going on still?

Its more or less 50-50 for either Tony or Goku.

Losing to Tony or Goku beating him is respectable for either of them.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> There's only Freeza destroying Namek but that was a chain reaction and it was only implied he could have done it in one shot.



buu too


Cooler said:


> So in other words you have no reason to ignore or discredit their statements. Thanks.



feats trump everything else..if a statements not backed up by feats it should not be taken seriously


Cooler said:


> So by you're reckoning the only planet busters in DB are people stronger than Kid Buu? And the supposed planet busters of the Cell Saga's weren't really planet busters at all?



I'm saying..your trying to claim..cell is durable enough to withstand an attack from say thor..or gladiator (a hammer toss can planet bust and G man does it with his fists)

in so far as claiming planetary level durability and I have seen nothing that suggests that...beyond powerscaling which in this case seems extremely faulty..and is generally not the most reliable thing



TWF said:


> .
> 
> Also why is this going on still?
> 
> ...



fights a good fight

meh hammering out the finer details least they ressurect themselves in other threads mayhapse?


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> buu too



Buu's destruction of Earth wasn't a chain reaction.



> feats trump everything else..if a statements not backed up by feats it should not be taken seriously



There's no reason for the statements to be considered fallible though. Not when the same thing is said by a half dozen different people.



> I'm saying..your trying to claim..cell is durable enough to withstand an attack from say thor..or gladiator (a hammer toss can planet bust and G man does it with his fists)



Well if Iron Man can withstand those attacks so can Cell 



> in so far as claiming planetary level durability and I have seen nothing that suggests that...beyond powerscaling which in this case seems extremely faulty..and is generally not the most reliable thing



It's not faulty, it's logical reasoning based on a saga's worth of statements etc...

I can see where your coming from and I do in part agree, for example I consider Cell's solar busting claim hyperbole same as Vegeta's planet bust threat in the Saiyan Saga. However to say that only SSJ3 tiers can bust planets completely contradicts the Manga.


----------



## Takuza (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Buu's destruction of Earth wasn't a chain reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Picollo and Master Roshii blew up the moon, which is about 1/4 the size of the earth. So it's safe to say, WITH feats backing it up, that they could planet bust likely around the namek saga.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 6, 2010)

Takuza said:


> Picollo and Master Roshii blew up the moon, which is about 1/4 the size of the earth. So it's safe to say, WITH feats backing it up, that they could planet bust likely around the namek saga.


IIRC it takes like 64 times the amount of energy to blow up the moon to blow up the earth. Or maybe it was more. Its def. more than 4 times.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Uh, you do know that's only the power core that supplies his suit. If Tony were capable of releasing that all at once, he'd fry himself and he'd make himself powerless after one burst. Besides, Goku finds Tony so uninformed about Saiyans he takes the time to explain it all. During which, Tony's armor starts goin haywire just trying to keep measuring the increase in Goku's power each time....as well as trying to keep from either laughing or crying while seeing Goku's hair change.



Because it's not like his sensors have measured cosmic beings like Galactus, right?



Cygnus45 said:


> Speculation on my part. She did not know the technique before marrying Kuririn and knew it afterwards. Not everyone can do it, and the bald midget is adept at it.



Well to be fair we don't know for a fact that she didn't know it beforehand, she just never used it then.



Cooler said:


> If we take the power of a star comment litterally then Goku has he totally stomped in power output.
> 
> Our star outputs some 4 x 10^26 Joules per second, that's nothing compared to what Goku can put out considering he can casually bust the Earth (which requires 10^32 Joules).



I already gave Goku the advantage in firepower. That's not the deciding factor though.



> Goku at SSJ3 could rip Cell in half and Cell has planet level durability



No, he *blasted* him in half. Durability against physical attacks is different from durability against ki.



Raigen said:


> By powerscaling, Cell and SS2 Gohan would've been starbusters at best.







> And yes, I'm ignoring the hyperbole crap of Cell's claim of system-busting. I'm going by the Daizenshuu numbers and then estimated increases given via magazines and other sources which puts the upper-tier DBZ cast by end of Cell Saga in the billions.



Fanon shit made up by rabid idiots?

The only canon power levels stated after the Frieza saga are as follows:

5 for Trunks suppressing his power

Several hundred thousand each for Goten and Trunks in base form in the recent TV special (not sure if that's canon or not but it was written by Toriyama).

Anything else is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

If you really want to try to extrapolate using canon information, we can take Goku's PL at SSJ1 in the Frieza saga as given in the Daizenshuu (150,000,000), and combine it with the info from the "Super Exciting Guide", which claims that SSJ2 is twice SSJ1, and SSJ3 is 4 times SSJ2. That would give SSJ3 Goku a PL of around 1.2 billion. Of course this is all speculation.



> It was my estimation a DBZ'er would need roughly around a 34bil PL in order to destroy an object the size of our sun.



Where did you get this number from (other than your ass)? Show your work and the math you used to arrive at this conclusion. Furthermore, PLs are not even consistent as they do not scale logically with physical stats or destructive ability, recall the farmer example again.



Raigen said:


> It's things you just refuse to accept, which always seems to be the case when DBZ comes up.



Yes, shame on us for "refusing to accept" such irrefutable evidence as "I think this number is right because I say so" 



> Seriously, these guys have gotten to the point their base levels are the equivalent of 50% Freeza (that's 60mil).



Not according to the "Yo! Son Goku and his friends Return" TV special. Of course you never let a little thing like evidence get in your way, did you Raigen?



> It's a fairly accurate assessment. They're not made up numbers. I've given a source which derived their numbers from various other sources.



Aka fanon shit



> I didn't make up numbers for Star busting. It was my estimating based off Piccolo's moon-busting level, comparing the size of the moon to Earth then Earth to Sun and estimated a PL requirement for destroying an object of equivalent size to the Sun.


 
You do realize that simply using size is completely incorrect, you have to use the gravitational binding energy formula. It takes over a billion times the amount of energy to destroy the sun as it would to destroy the earth.



> No one really cares that you hate DBZ. We don't. But you get worked up over nothing any time I or anyone for that matter comes up with an idea or argument that points towards DBZ'ers being even reasonably powerful. And I even discounted the system-busting garbage.



LOL@Appeal to Motive fallacy. And "reasonably powerful"? Are you serious? You're saying that you think the capability to destroy a planet is not even "reasonably powerful"? Even weak DBZ characters can easily solo the likes of the HST and most other fictional universes that take place on only one planet. It's just wankers like you who want to inflate them to way beyond their actual capabilities.



TWF said:


> Aside from the fact that yeah, Cooler is over-rating Super Saiyan 3 Goku's physical strength. Perfect Cell did purposely let Vegeta damage him with his Final Flash, seeing as how a planet-busting Ki attack couldn't one shot him, he's pretty close.



Um, what? Cell was going to take the attack but he didn't expect how strong it was going to be, hence the "Oh shit!" (LOL German dub) before it hit him. He only survived it due to his regeneration.



Cubey said:


> He does, he survived a Final Flash as TWF pointed out and a Kamehameha that would have destroyed Earth (unless it was only in the anime)



Due to regeneration.



Cubey said:


> He survived his own self-destruction which did blow up a planet.



Due to regeneration.



Cooler said:


> Well if Iron Man can withstand those attacks so can Cell



Only because of his regeneration.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 6, 2010)

The Moon can fit in the Earth 48 times. Vegeta is roughly 56x stronger than Piccolo's moonbusting level. At the time (right after fighting Raditz), Piccolo's Pl was around 320 w/weights on. It's the same as when he blew up the moon (he had his weights on) and he didn't even need to charge the beam.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> IIRC it takes like 64 times the amount of energy to blow up the moon to blow up the earth. Or maybe it was more. Its def. more than 4 times.



Closer to 1800 times.

People need to get this shit down, this equation is easy to learn:



U = GBE
G = Gravitational Constant
M = Mass
r = radius


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Raigen said:


> The Moon can fit in the Earth 48 times. Vegeta is roughly 56x stronger than Piccolo's moonbusting level. At the time (right after fighting Raditz), Piccolo's Pl was around 320 w/weights on. It's the same as when he blew up the moon (he had his weights on) and he didn't even need to charge the beam.





It's not a mere function of size, mass, or volume. It increases exponentially as bodies get more massive.


----------



## Raigen (Jun 6, 2010)

Why are you bothering to apply physics to a series that ignores them on a regular basis?


----------



## Fang (Jun 6, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, what? Cell was going to take the attack but he didn't expect how strong it was going to be, hence the "Oh shit!" (LOL German dub) before it hit him. He only survived it due to his regeneration.



Which from the RAW in the manga, he goes "Just kidding!" afterwards, he knew already Vegeta didn't have enough power, but whatever I'm not getting into this with you.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2010)

Raigen stop rehashing old arguments. We don't know the powerscaling correlation, being 500x moon busting power level does not mean you blow up 500 moons. No even if Vegeta was 98x stronger than Piccolo he's not a planet buster.

EDIT In Saiyan saga atleast.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 6, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Closer to 1800 times.
> 
> People need to get this shit down, this equation is easy to learn:
> 
> ...


 I knew it was a lot more. 
Going by that. Estimating that the Blast Pic. blew up the moon with was 400 pl
multiply that by 2000... we get a pl of 8,000,000 to blow up the earth. That would be.... Third form Freeza i think
Not that this is concrete evidence by any means mind you.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Buu's destruction of Earth wasn't a chain reaction.[



it was a clean destruction. I added him because I thought you where saying no one in dbz has ever done it...besides Freiza and i was like "buu too"




Cooler said:


> There's no reason for the statements to be considered fallible though. Not when the same thing is said by a half dozen different people.



well beyond the lack of feats theres also the characters themselves...some of which are riddled with CIS or..very much not trust worthy


Cooler said:


> Well if Iron Man can withstand those attacks so can Cell



blood lusted attacks from those guys? he barely survives them...usually with his shields totally ruined and most of his armor torn off (and automatic repair systems scrambling like crazy..to fix it and life support..in danger etc etc)

cell may by virtue of regen survive a punch by gladiator..or a hammer toss

but he'd of been popped like a balloon and in tiny tiny pieces  scrambling to Regen before he got...eye beams hooter then stars vaping his but..or his cells got converted into anti matter by mjolinor or stormbreaker *shrugs*

if he can survive it its because of his healing factor and not innate durability...which is something I don;t have an issue with..and meshes up far more with the actual scenes in question

mind you thats assuming Gohan being able to hurt cell beyond his ability to regen..wasn't anime filler..because it seemed at certain levels physical attacks negated his regen by a fair degree



Cooler said:


> It's not faulty, it's logical reasoning based on a saga's worth of statements etc..


.

it would mean we put our faith in characters like vageta..and cell..whom I have no inclination to trust as far as they can thrown

or krillens expert knowledge..on..attacks that I'm not sure he ever witnessed before (his comments on the final flash)

I'm just saying I would like a bit more proof



Cooler said:


> I can see where your coming from and I do in part agree, for example I consider Cell's solar busting claim hyperbole same as Vegeta's planet bust threat in the Saiyan Saga. However to say that only SSJ3 tiers can bust planets completely contradicts the Manga.



i'm not saying they can;t wreck planets

I'm saying them having the durability to eat..a planet buster to the face is disputable based on their own durability feats.,..and the consistency therein

ah to add to the destructo disk..debate Krillen being the only z-senshi aside from maybe piccolo..and occasional vageta..with a brain..designed a move made to kill focusing all its power into cutting and slicing...allowing it to punch out of his weight class

his destructo disk..never failed to accomplish its goals in the manga..every one elses iirc did...sans the Freiza one

so I'd say his is the perfect version and any one else would be wielding merely a cheap imitation


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Why are you bothering to apply physics to a series that ignores them on a regular basis?



Raigen logic:

"Calculations are all fine and good when I make them, but when someone actually does them *correctly*, they don't count".


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it was a clean destruction. I added him because I thought you where saying no one in dbz has ever done it...besides Freiza and i was like "buu too"



Oh sorry. I misunderstood.



> well beyond the lack of feats theres also the characters themselves...some of which are riddled with CIS or..very much not trust worthy



Most of the occasions where it was stated to be a planet buster it was observers with no reason to lie who made the claim.



> blood lusted attacks from those guys? he barely survives them...usually with his shields totally ruined and most of his armor torn off (and automatic repair systems scrambling like crazy..to fix it and life support..in danger etc etc)
> 
> cell may by virtue of regen survive a punch by gladiator..or a hammer toss
> 
> ...



That wasn't a wholly serious comment on my part. In any case SSJ3 Goku is far more durable than Cell is.



> it would mean we put our faith in characters like vageta..and cell..whom I have no inclination to trust as far as they can thrown



There's no reason to assume every statement they make is a lie. Besides plenty of other characters made such statements anyway



> or krillens expert knowledge..on..attacks that I'm not sure he ever witnessed before (his comments on the final flash)



It was Trunks I believe making the comment about the Final Flash? 



> I'm just saying I would like a bit more proof



Sadly you won't be getting any considering the series is over, I think it's clear as day that the fighters of the Cell Games were planet busters. Infact I think it's a fact of the Manga that they are, if the multiple character statements aren't enough there's nothing more I can say.



> i'm not saying they can;t wreck planets



So they can't withstand their own attacks?



> I'm saying them having the durability to eat..a planet buster to the face is disputable based on their own durability feats.,..and the consistency therein







Endless Mike said:


> No, he *blasted* him in half. Durability against physical attacks is different from durability against ki.



Ki delivers physical damage, there's no reason why resistance to ki would be greater than against a punch in the face. If durability against ki was THAT much greater you'd need massive PL advantages to ignore physical blows compared to those you need to ignore ki based attacks. This clearly isn't shown in the Manga. 



> Only because of his regeneration.



That wasn't a totally serious remark by myself. However I do personally think DBZ striking power and durability against it are underestimated.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Ki delivers physical damage, there's no reason why resistance to ki would be greater than against a punch in the face. If durability against ki was THAT much greater you'd need massive PL advantages to ignore physical blows compared to those you need to ignore ki based attacks. This clearly isn't shown in the Manga.



No, their durability against ki is far greater as they can survive ki attacks that do far more damage than any physical attack in the series has been shown to do. Besides, it's all relevant. If one guy is twice as strong as another guy, it will be just as difficult to hurt him with ki attacks as it is to hurt him with physical attacks. The ki attacks and defenses against them are just overall more powerful. 



> That wasn't a totally serious remark by myself. However I do personally think DBZ striking power and durability against it are underestimated.



Good for you. However, feats say otherwise.


----------



## Cooler (Jun 6, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No, their durability against ki is far greater as they can survive ki attacks that do far more damage than any physical attack in the series has been shown to do. Besides, it's all relevant. If one guy is twice as strong as another guy, it will be just as difficult to hurt him with ki attacks as it is to hurt him with physical attacks. The ki attacks and defenses against them are just overall more powerful.



Ki attacks deliver physical damage, what's the difference between surviving an explosion and surviving the equivalent punch? 

How strong do you think DBZ'ers striking force is exactly?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Most of the occasions where it was stated to be a planet buster it was observers with no reason to lie who made the claim.



those observers aren't feats and not all of them where believable characters




Cooler said:


> That wasn't a wholly serious comment on my part. In any case SSJ3 Goku is far more durable than Cell is.



I'm still not seeing anything that suggests he'll eat a planet buster to the face and be totally fine



Cooler said:


> There's no reason to assume every statement they make is a lie. Besides plenty of other characters made such statements anyway



there is absolutely every reason not to take statements seriously when no feats back them up




Cooler said:


> It was Trunks I believe making the comment about the Final Flash?



I think it may have both of them but either way Krillen had no way of knowing..and Trunks was consistently proven wrong when he mouthed off


Cooler said:


> Sadly you won't be getting any considering the series is over, I think it's clear as day that the fighters of the Cell Games were planet busters. Infact I think it's a fact of the Manga that they are, if the multiple character statements aren't enough there's nothing more I can say.



in the manga itself are their any feats that back up those claims


Cooler said:


> So they can't withstand their own attacks?




considering those attacks are often finishers..and to date only three characters ever in the history of dbz survived planet busters

two doing it..with hax regen and one..at the cost of being absolutely maimed to the point where he needed extensive prosthetic  ...and likely had shielding from debris to protect him from the bulk of it..

no.. hell no and aside from powerscaling which is faulty..and often times done with very little accuracy or tainted by biased...ad a few statements that are contradicted by the fact that at the end of said character was maimed..and escaped by regen

no..I'm not seeing anything that would allow you to claim such a thing at least for a majority of z-guys





Cooler said:


> Ki delivers physical damage, there's no reason why resistance to ki would be greater than against a punch in the face. If durability against ki was THAT much greater you'd need massive PL advantages to ignore physical blows compared to those you need to ignore ki based attacks. This clearly isn't shown in the Manga.



they are energy manipulators...meaning it stands to reason their resistance to energy based attacks would be greater then physical damage

this is also backed up by various scenes of them..being hurt by physical truama far weaker then chi attacks



Cooler said:


> That wasn't a totally serious remark by myself. However I do personally think DBZ striking power and durability against it are underestimated.



how is it underestimated in the two scenes in question he lost in exhibit A part of the right side of his torso

and in B his entire upper half 

Buu a guy supposed to be many times stronger was blasted to pieces by his own planet busters

at the end of the day one must go by whats shown..and use whats spoken..or what seems to make sense via abc logic..only when it fits into whats happening on panel..if not you end up with a complete catastrophe as opposed to a good debate no?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2010)

Frieza vs Trunks's sword says hi. You don't want to argue his sword can cut a planet do you? Don't say futuristic materials either as an excuse.


----------



## ChINaMaN1472 (Jun 6, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Frieza vs Trunks's sword says hi. You don't want to argue his sword can cut a planet do you? Don't say futuristic materials either as an excuse.



Beyond that, did anyone with "planet busting" ki attacks ever come close to planet busting using physical attacks?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Ki attacks deliver physical damage, what's the difference between surviving an explosion and surviving the equivalent punch?



Ki can be dampened. For example, they can catch a ki attack in their hands and somehow deflect it without it detonating. 



> How strong do you think DBZ'ers striking force is exactly?



Millions of tons wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 6, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Millions of tons wouldn't surprise me.



That's quite a bit more than I would've thought

Shouldn't be too surprising though, considering their speed and the feats displayed during the SSJ3 Gotenks vs Buu fight


----------



## Fang (Jun 6, 2010)

Raigen


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

ChINaMaN1472 said:


> Beyond that, did anyone with "planet busting" ki attacks ever come close to planet busting using physical attacks?



no character in dbz has ever come close to doing it with raw physical  power



Crimson Dragoon said:


> That's quite a bit more than I would've thought
> 
> Shouldn't be too surprising though, considering their speed and the feats displayed during the SSJ3 Gotenks vs Buu fight



when goku and kid buu started slugging it out least ways as far as I remember they started warping the ground and causing massive tremors..and I think impact craters that could be seen from space (could be confusing anime/manga though i'm going off memory)

coupled with him much earlier kicking Freiza through some small islands...yeah..seems 'bout right

though their durability seems lower then their strength at least to physical blows


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no character in dbz has ever come close to doing it with raw physical  power
> 
> 
> 
> when goku and kid buu started slugging it out least ways as far as I remember they started warping the ground and causing massive tremors..and I think impact craters that could be seen from space (could be confusing anime/manga though i'm going off memory)



That was filler.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 6, 2010)

Cooler said:


> As it says in the title.
> 
> Tony Stark get's his current armor. Both characters are bloodlusted, Tony has a ki signature. Battle field is the ROSAT/Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
> 
> Discuss.



Ironman probably only has 1 or 2 versions of his armor that could survive a Kamehameha. Even with regards to the ones that can, unless Tony has some kind of speed boost to prevent Goku from just piling on energy blast after energy blast, it's probably not going to be an interesting fight. I don't know, but Extremis Ironman with Hulk buster armor or something might win. Actually, I don't honestly remember what attacks IM has that would kill Goku. I stopped reading IM after Civil war. I kind lost interest in all marvel titles save my realible Punisher and Daredevil dudes after that. Though even then, I only read the other shit on occasion. Spider-man is pretty boring most of the time in my opinion.

Question: I recall some writing with Sentry were Stark was able to not get blitz into oblivion and blown up into a bloody stain in one punch. Is that jobbing on Sentry's part and simply holding back, or Ironman having really good armor? You can never tell with comics if you're not some kinda hardcore fan of the character.........


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Ironman probably only has 1 or 2 versions of his armor that could survive a Kamehameha. Even with regards to the ones that can, unless Tony has some kind of speed boost to prevent Goku from just piling on energy blast after energy blast, it's probably not going to be an interesting fight. I don't know, but Extremis Ironman with Hulk buster armor or something might win. Actually, I don't honestly remember what attacks IM has that would kill Goku. I stopped reading IM after Civil war. I kind lost interest in all marvel titles save my realible Punisher and Daredevil dudes after that. Though even then, I only read the other shit on occasion. Spider-man is pretty boring most of the time in my opinion.
> 
> Question: I recall some writing with Sentry were Stark was able to not get blitz into oblivion and blown up into a bloody stain in one punch. Is that jobbing on Sentry's part and simply holding back, or Ironman having really good armor? You can never tell with comics if you're not some kinda hardcore fan of the character.........



Read the rest of the thread please. This is the Bleeding Edge armor, which is even better than the Extremis armor.


----------



## Fang (Jun 6, 2010)

Extremis > Hulk Buster?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jun 6, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Question: I recall some writing with Sentry were Stark was able to not get blitz into oblivion and blown up into a bloody stain in one punch. Is that jobbing on Sentry's part and simply holding back, or Ironman having really good armor? You can never tell with comics if you're not some kinda hardcore fan of the character.........



Sentry commented on how fast Iron Man was, but then he blitzed him anyway before Stark got halfways as far as he intended.

Sentry holds back as a way of life. He was doing it even against Genis-Vell. It's what happens when a psychotic man fears the boogeyman will balance every good action he performs.

That was Extremis Iron Man I think.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Jun 6, 2010)

For the Cell durability discussion, isn't the general consensus that they were multi-planet level in the Cell/Boo arcs? Wouldn't the final flash have contained more energy than needed to destroy the earth and thus melt through Cell's hide?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 6, 2010)

Cygnus45 said:


> For the Cell durability discussion, isn't the general consensus that they were multi-planet level in the Cell/Boo arcs? Wouldn't the final flash have contained more energy than needed to destroy the earth and thus melt through Cell's hide?



in terms of destructive power not durability

or maybe its because you guys don't use damage soak to differentiate between tanking and surviving

to me having multi planetary durability would of been eating the final flash point blank with zero damage what so ever or the attack by goku with zero damage

as opposed having his shoulder ripped off or his torso blown in half

to me thats more a soak/regen feat then say durability


----------



## Lina Inverse (Jun 6, 2010)

TWF said:


> Extremis > Hulk Buster?


Versatility wise yeah

Hulk Buster was basically a huge metallic brick. The MKII more so

Then again...is Extremis > Thor Buster?


----------

