# Official Crow Discussion (the one in Naruto's mouth)



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

The crow has reappeared after almost 150 chapters, now with an odd-looking eye.  Does anyone have an ideas as to what the crow's power is, why his eye looks as it does, or what role it has in the fight?


----------



## ouroborus (Jul 27, 2011)

*Crow's Mangekyou Sharingan?*

Why does it look like it has Mangekyou Sharingan?  

Interestingly, it has four points.  All the others have three points, each point being one of the normal three tomoe of the Sharingan transformed to the MS shape.  

So if this was a real MS eye, would it have four tomoe?

Why would Itachi put something like that in Naruto?


----------



## Aiku (Jul 27, 2011)

It's being rumored that the crow's Mangekyou Sharingan is going to be Sasuke's EMS design.


----------



## Distance (Jul 27, 2011)

I keep thinking that it may just be a design Kishimoto put on the crow, but we shall see next chapter.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 27, 2011)

Aiku said:


> It's being rumored that the crow's Mangekyou Sharingan is going to be Sasuke's EMS design.



Kishi wouldn't reveal it this early and in such an anti-climactic manner.


----------



## Aiku (Jul 27, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Kishi wouldn't reveal it this early and in such an anti-climactic manner.



That's true, but it's what being rumored right now.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2011)

It's Itachi Tsukuyomi-eye, but it might he powered-up from Fox-chakra.


----------



## vjpowell (Jul 27, 2011)

It may be Itachi's lost powers before he went to fight Sasuke.


----------



## tnorbo (Jul 27, 2011)

its most likely an ability to completely seal the mangekyo.


----------



## dream (Jul 27, 2011)

tnorbo said:


> its most likely an ability to completely seal the mangekyo.



That will be far too broken.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

I think it might be a Tsukuyomi defense.  Itachi's left Mangekyou formed right before the crow popped out. 

Otherwise, I don't know what's up with the crow's tomoe seal.  I definitely think it'd be too anticlimactic to be an EMS.  The idea that it has been powered up by Kyuubi chakra mode is interesting, but I'm not sure how that works and why it would modify the eye in that particular manner.


----------



## ouroborus (Jul 27, 2011)

Kishi probably wouldn't reveal Sasuke's EMS design in this way.  

Kind of strange it looks like a shuriken when that is Naruto's favorite weapon.  

Could there be a connection between it and whatever reason why Uzumaki Nagato has Rinnegan?

Perhaps Itachi gave him a sharingan power and this is what it evolved into due to Naruto being a Uzumaki.  

Although why it would show up on the crow and not Naruto's own eyes.  

Very strange.


----------



## Sorin (Jul 27, 2011)

If it's a MS sealer than Kabuto just screwed Itachi over since, imo, it was implanted into Naruto to stop Sasuke's MS. We'll see next chapter i guess. 

Edit: Btw isn't Itachi using the Amaterasu eye and not the Tuskyomi eye?


----------



## Gabe (Jul 27, 2011)

i think it is a MS defense maybe a counter for ameratsu.


----------



## Shadow_fox (Jul 27, 2011)

Is it just me, or does that crow look like it grew? I mean when it was first see, it's whole body fit in Naruto's mouth, now only his head is as big as Naruto's mouth.

 Also they eye might be an effect of Kyuubi's chakra.


----------



## reggiefarnogg (Jul 27, 2011)

100% confirmed to be tsukuyomi defense right when itachi activates his left eye the crow appears to shield naruto


----------



## Gabe (Jul 27, 2011)

what if the kyuubi chakra turned the crow into the ems. both powers come from the juubi they should power each other



reggiefarnogg said:


> 100% confirmed to be tsukuyomi defense right when itachi activates his left eye the crow appears to shield naruto



isnt the eye itachi was going to use the one for ameratsu?


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

Sorin said:


> Edit: Btw isn't Itachi using the Amaterasu eye and not the Tuskyomi eye?


He activates his left-Mangekyou--his Tsukuyomi eye--in the middle of the last page where he says "let's say what would happen . . ." .  He had just his Amaterasu eye activated before that, however.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jul 27, 2011)

now people can shut up with the "naruto wont beat sasuke, the crow will". that shit was getting annoying.


----------



## Kage (Jul 27, 2011)

whatever it is i hope it's clarified soon.

i wouldn't even mind if it's "wasted" here. too many expect this to be what turns the sasuke/naruto battle around.

EDIT:


cbark42 said:


> now people can shut up with the "naruto wont beat sasuke, the crow will". that shit was getting annoying.



lmao this is exactly what i mean.


----------



## NarutoIzDaMan (Jul 27, 2011)

It's about damn time we FINALLY learn something about the crow, it feels like freakin ages. Anyway, does anyone else here think that the crow will end up being unintentionally "wasted" on Itachi (seal/counter his MS) instead of Sasuke? 

I mentioned this in the other thread but Itachi apparently never expected Naruto to become as strong as he is right now so he gave Naruto some of his power (the crow) so that he could stand a chance against a MS Sasuke when the time came. Now, however, it looks like Naruto won't even need the crow to assist him in fighting Sasuke.


----------



## ppain (Jul 27, 2011)

For me, it will be logical to assume that this was to counter sasuke's mangekyou if ever Naruto would have to fight Sasuke.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

Its similar to what Itachi did to Sasuke,he used a sealing jutsu "Tesha Fuuin Amaterasu" and sealed a power that can only be used by Sasuke so perhaps the crow was a sealing jutsu with a power that could be used by both Naruto and Itachi. 
I think that crows have something to do with the Uchiha clans Inton abilities even Susanoo looks partialy like a bird/tengu when its fully transformed .
Maybe this is actualy a crow summon and Naruto has now a crow summoning contract along with his frog contract


----------



## slickcat (Jul 27, 2011)

I dont feel like kishi had planned to make edo tenseis return 4 d war, including itachi, my guess is that since itachi encountered naruto , it had to be dispersed, its not needed in the fight with sasuke


----------



## Sorin (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> He activates his left-Mangekyou--his Tsukuyomi eye--in the middle of the last page where he says "let's say what would happen . . ." .  He had just his Amaterasu eye activated before that, however.



Yeah got it now.For a moment here a thought only his right MS eye was activated.Thanks.


----------



## Shadow_fox (Jul 27, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Its similar to what Itachi did to Sasuke,he used a sealing jutsu "Tesha Fuuin Amaterasu" and sealed a power that can only be used by Sasuke so perhaps the crow was a sealing jutsu with a power that could be used by both Naruto and Itachi.
> I think that crows have something to do with the Uchiha clans Inton abilities even Susanoo looks partialy like a bird/tengu when its fully transformed .
> Maybe this is actualy a crow summon and Naruto has now a crow summoning contract along with his frog contract



 It would be interesting. But I have trouble seeing it happen. 

 Naruto with a crow summon would be nice. Bring some changes from this.


 But doesn't it look like that crow grew 3 times bigger?


----------



## Penance (Jul 27, 2011)

Strategos said:


> It's Itachi Tsukuyomi-eye, but it might he powered-up from Fox-chakra.



Nah...that was in the panel before...


----------



## Summers (Jul 27, 2011)

Strategos said:


> It's Itachi Tsukuyomi-eye, but it might he powered-up from Fox-chakra.



That what I am thinking, or something like it. 

When Itachi gave him the crow, the crow only had a regular Sharingan.

The crow eye now has MS with and extra tomoe, probably powered up by Kyuubi chakra.

Looks like Naruto`s fuuton shuriken.

Thats what we got so far.

Need more clues.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

This crow thing is probably a permanent power up but i bett it is something only Uchiha and Uzumaki can use. It can be many things, Izanagi powered by Kyuubi's chakra, a seal that was building up Yin chakra over time,a transformation similar to Susanoo powered by Kyuubi's chakra, the power to control Amaterasu's flames....etc


----------



## Prototype (Jul 27, 2011)

I think the design of the crow's tomoe is meant to represent a shuriken; Itachi likes disguising the use of shuriken with crows, via genjutsu, so maybe this is a nod to that.


----------



## Saren (Jul 27, 2011)

It's good to see the crow, it has been way too long..and here i thought it was forgotten by the author himself. 
I'm guessing the crow may possibly rebound the Tsukuyomi onto the caster? or cancel out the MS completely, but that would be pretty hax.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

Shadow_fox said:


> But doesn't it look like that crow grew 3 times bigger?


The crow is huge.  I suspect it's just the art, though.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

summers said:


> That what I am thinking, or something like it.
> 
> When Itachi gave him the crow, the crow only had a regular Sharingan.
> 
> ...



Yeah the shuriken shaped MS is kinda strange but on the flip side every MS has different design, even Kakashi's . Perhaps each chakra is individual and awakens different powers in the sharingan.
As for the crow thing i feel like it is a crow/tengu summon contract .
Think about it, Naruto carries lot of atributes from the people that believe in him.
He has the frog summon contract from Jiraiya
Minatos Rasenagan
Kushina's special chakra that allows him to be a perfect Jinchuuriki for the Kyuubi
Itachi also believed in him so maybe he entrusted the power of the Tengu with Naruto with the hope Naruto will learn the secrets of the sharingan and EMS from them .


----------



## Saru (Jul 27, 2011)

It's not as if the crow will vanish after one use... Is it?


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> It's about damn time we FINALLY learn something about the crow, it feels like freakin ages. Anyway, does anyone else here think that the crow will end up being unintentionally "wasted" on Itachi (seal/counter his MS) instead of Sasuke?


From Itachi's line "let's see, what will happen . . .", I think he's testing the power.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

Is it just me or Itachi is using some form of Onmyoton release by combining his left and right MS eye ?  It makes sense since the crow is a living creature. 
Would be funny if the crow was a power up that has something to do with Kage Bushin and not Rasengan  Maybe it is indeed a form of Izanagi or maybe Izanami.


----------



## ace_skoot (Jul 27, 2011)

its pretty much confirmed genjutsu defence


----------



## lizardo221 (Jul 27, 2011)

Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.

Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world. "But wait lizardo, he needs some good ol tree blood in him to pull that one" and all I have to do is point at the crow who has been rotting in a pool of some of the densest energy on the planet, filled with god only knows how much konoha spirit and whatnot.

So which is it? The question to ask now is, do we need Itachi back for this story to function? If all is well in the world naruto gets a new power, seals the goobers, and moves on to the next level. Wait..."starts to count enemies"...Madara and 6 powerful beings who each once controled large monsters are hunting after Naruto...he might need a little back up. Lets see, well they all are fighting over there...he could....no hes fighting 3 kages....but there is...no, she's busy playing with her slugs. I'm left thinking Itachi pulling a fast one and taking out a few villains might be the trump card we need here for this to even be called a fight. 

If you have read this far I think you know where I'm going with this. I believe the crow ought to be a means for Itachi to cheat death and help turn this ugly ship around. I'm not making promises since Kishi could go with the little power up for Naruto but come on...you all know you want to see Sasuke go bug eye at the sight of his revived brother.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> From Itachi's line "let's see, what will happen . . .", I think he's testing the power.



I doubt a crow will come out of Naruto's mouth every time he encounters sharingans, that would look totaly retarded. Its more likely that the crow was meant to transfer a power to Naruto that can be used only by him.
Maybe we will also learn how those damn crows are connected to the Sharingan.


----------



## Summers (Jul 27, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Yeah the shuriken shaped MS is kinda strange but on the flip side every MS has different design, even Kakashi's . Perhaps each chakra is individual and awakens different powers in the sharingan.
> As for the crow thing i feel like it is a crow/tengu summon contract .
> Think about it, Naruto carries lot of atributes from the people that believe in him.
> He has the frog summon contract from Jiraiya
> ...



Good point. Can ya find something for Nagato.

Naruto doesn't seem like a crow guy though, Maybe if it was a different color, and what would crows do, he wouldn't use them like Itachi. Unless it really is a sealing Jutsu and he would use crows a method of delivery.
 I am  sure if Naruto gets something from this it has to be sealing since Naruto needs a way to permanently stop Itachi and Nagato or he will eventually lose.
If this thing was meant to activate when he fought sasuke, then would he have the time to have the secrets explained to him.


----------



## pixelnick (Jul 27, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.
> 
> Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world. "But wait lizardo, he needs some good ol tree blood in him to pull that one" and all I have to do is point at the crow who has been rotting in a pool of some of the densest energy on the planet, filled with god only knows how much konoha spirit and whatnot.
> 
> ...



Glad i wasn't the only one who thought the crow was some sort of edo tensei reversal.


----------



## Penance (Jul 27, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.
> 
> Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where *Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world.*



...Okay, now...


----------



## Uzumakinaru (Jul 27, 2011)

The question is, why would Itachi take the crow off now?

Itachi is not coming back to life, he already told to Naruto that he will have to deal with Sasuke by himself


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 27, 2011)

It seems Itachi willingly activated MS.  Seems he might be trying to get an attack in on himself.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

I kind of like the idea that it's Itachi's MS, modified on account of Naruto being of the Senju-side of the family tree.  The Kyuubi doing it makes sense, as definitely we know the Juubi is capable of powering up Sharingan.  The tomoe seal doesn't look like anything on that line, though.  

It just looks like a different MS (and a lot like an FRS, though that could just be on account that it's a shuriken).


----------



## Yuna (Jul 27, 2011)

Occam's Razor: Kishi is a hack.

The crow is supposed to have Itachi's EMS, but Kishi screwed up.


----------



## lizardo221 (Jul 27, 2011)

Two little notes to my theory. First, Itachi has no idea what this move will do, adding further to the idea he is coming back for one more fight. Think about, how many folks have moves where they use them to bring themselves back from the dead...and do it often. He clearly viewed this as a "oh hell lets give it a try" moment.

Other point I want to make is that Itachi won't fight Sasuke simply because its already been done. No repeat value, I got the T-Shirt with Zetsu when we watched, time to move on. He can show up for a good ol fashion mind f$%k (like every freaking week of bleach lately) but Naruto will do the dirty work. Itachi will take on either madara or some minions to buy the good guys some time. Hell, HE HAS A FREAKING SEALING SWORD, if that isn't a plot device begging to be used, what is????


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

summers said:


> Good point. Can ya find something for Nagato.
> 
> Naruto doesn't seem like a crow guy though, Maybe if it was a different color, and what would crows do, he wouldn't use them like Itachi. Unless it really is a sealing Jutsu and he would use crows a method of delivery.
> I am  sure if Naruto gets something from this it has to be sealing since Naruto needs a way to permanently stop Itachi and Nagato or he will eventually lose.
> If this thing was meant to activate when he fought sasuke, then would he have the time to have the secrets explained to him.



It can be many things, but what is most interesting is that :

1) The crow's basic sharingan evolved into a strange shuriken looking MS indicating the crow might have absorbed some of Naruto's own chakra.

2) Itachi is using both MS eyes in the end meaning he is using an Onmyoton type of move like Susanoo or Izanagi. 

3) The crow was shoved in Naruto's mouth while Itachi poked Sasuke on the forhead when he sealed Amaterasu which could mean that the crow is a power up that is activated by the body and not the eyes . 

 Itachi might expain how the sharingan was created from the original dojutsu of Rikudou's elder brother. Maybe a sealing jutsu was used to seal some of the Bijuu's chakra in the eyes,then that chakra was carried over from generation to generation and it was passed in the eyes of the holders .

So there is the possibility that the crow is a sealing jutsu that seals some of the Kyuubi's chakra in his eyes and transforms them into a shuriken shaped MS . That would be only possible if the Uzumaki have some connection with the Uchiha .


----------



## Kingnaruto (Jul 27, 2011)

*Crow!!!!! theory*

People are wondering why is the crow coming out, 

We know itachi is not purposely doing it because he cannot control his body.

Now its been going around in the forums that naruto will have this genjutsu or Mangekyou sharingan block when the user casts his eyes and attacks naruto.

Now taking into consideration Itachi is not controlling his body

And naruto say's "be carefull bee, if you get hit by amaterasu tsukuyomi its over!! 
Itachi then goes to activate and then say's "lets see... what will happen...
Crow pops up on activation.

I truly believe this fight will end next chapter, with naruto able to negating what Itachi throws.


----------



## dream (Jul 27, 2011)

Two chapter fight?  I expect more chapters for a fight between these characters.


----------



## Maiokhan (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> From Itachi's line "let's see, what will happen . . .", I think he's testing the power.



I agree, that's exactly what's happening. I'm unsure about whether Naruto or the Kyuubi are affecting the crow somehow, though it is an interesting idea. One thing's certain now, we will find out the purpose of the crow next week!


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 27, 2011)

What about Naruto getting that MS-shaped eyes that will evolve to Rasengan , the Doujutsu of the Elder Son of Rikodou ? We know it's a Spiral , the symbol of the Uzumaki Clan and this MS is shaped in a Shuriken 


What would the combination of both do ? Rasen ( Spiral ) Shuriken


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

Didnt Kishi say in an interview we will find out how Kakashi got MS ? There could be another training arc where Kakashi explains to Naruto how he awakend Kamui. The DB says that by training ones chakra it is possible to invoke Kamui from the MS.
So Naruto could master the crow power up with Kakashi's help.


----------



## Summers (Jul 27, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Didnt Kishi say in an interview we will find out how Kakashi got MS ? There could be another training arc where Kakashi explains to Naruto how he awakend Kamui. The DB says that by training ones chakra it is possible to invoke Kamui from the MS.
> So Naruto could master the crow power up with Kakashi's help.



When will they find the time to have another training arc. Unless this war goes really badly for Madara and he retreats back into hiding, Or there is a whole new arc focusing on Kabuto after Madara is done off.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jul 27, 2011)

Amagadz!!!! 

Nardo has teh sharingunz!!!!!!!!!!!!111111!11111


----------



## vered (Jul 27, 2011)

itachi wanted to test the crow powers perhaps with his MS.
this is probably a defensive power.


----------



## Syntaxis (Jul 27, 2011)

Most likely, it's going to be sacrificial.

Tsukiyomi: Crow absorbs the effect, disappears.
Ameterasu: Crow absorbs the effect, disappears.

Assume it's an automated jutsu that lasts as long as Naruto has chakra, it'll boil down to "who can last longer with the chakra reserves he has left?"

So when he's fighting Itachi, Madara or Sasuke, the crows will keep coming out until the Uchiha can no longer use that jutsu.. or Naruto runs out of chakra.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jul 27, 2011)

It's just what I have been saying it is: a get-out-of-Tsukiyomi-free card. That's all it is.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 27, 2011)

It appears the crows power was programmed to lay dormant until the first time it encountered MS/EMS. Now it has activated and will assume it's intended purpose. Since Itachi talked about a test we can determine that it's not a one time deal. Although I certainly hope the regurgitation thingy is.

Now as for what the crow is supposed to do there are three possibilities that come to my mind immediately. Either it's a genjutsu defense designed to protect Naruto against Tsukiyomi or it's a way to completely negate/suppress the powers of the Mangekyou Sharingan or it's to make Naruto the 4th Rikudou. 

A mere Tsukiyomi defense would be a bit of a waste in my opinion. Sure the jutsu is dangerous, but it's easily defended against by simply avoiding eye contact. Naruto should have learned that much by now.

Complete protection against the MS or even just against Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi is far too haxxed. It would ruin any potential fight between Naruto and Sasuke. Besides as I've said above Naruto knows how to prevent from getting caught in Tsukiyomi and he's faster that A so he should be able to evade Amaterasu. As for Susanoo, well he'll just have to deal with it. Afterall he can't have a perfect counter for everything beforehand.

Finally, my current favorite Itachi intends to make Naruto a Rikudou by granting him his spiritual powers. Naruto wouldn't get a doujutsu, but just the spiritual strength of the Uchiha chakra. That would make him a mirror from Tobi who was born with the spiritual strength and acquired the physical energy. This spiritual strength would give Naruto the strength to break out of Tsukiyomi with sheer force of will and he might become able to counter Izanagi. 

Whatever it is I hope the crow leaves some lasting mark on Naruto's KCM, which would if the last possibility comes true become Rikudou Mode in truth and not just in NF lingo. That strange shuriken like eye could be artfully placed on Naruto's back or on his legs or some other place to give the mode a bit more contrast.  



FallenAngelII said:


> Occam's Razor: Kishi is a hack.
> 
> The crow is supposed to have Itachi's EMS, but Kishi screwed up.



I'm getting a bit tired of people who spout some nonsense about how Kishi screwed up for absolutely no reason other than that something new isn't immediately explained in the chapter of it's first appearance.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jul 27, 2011)

Syntaxis said:


> Most likely, it's going to be sacrificial.
> 
> Tsukiyomi: Crow absorbs the effect, disappears.
> Ameterasu: Crow absorbs the effect, disappears.
> ...



Considering Naruto has boat loads more Chakra than anyone else... that'd mean he'd auto win every fight.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

So... Here is my theory...

Itachi used tensha fuin (don't worry camorra, I have been theorizing this for a while), but naruto is holding someone's EMS. Itachi gave it to naruto and it would activate within him with the sight of his right eye.

Since sasuke would have itachi's stigma, it would activate should they fight.

naru's getting doujutsu yall!


----------



## Shadow_fox (Jul 27, 2011)

_Itachi used Tsukuyomi against Kakashi_ 

 Interesting, did anyone notice that Itachi activated both eyes? In the top panel you see his right eyes already activated, and in the middle panel, middle row, you see his left eye activating. 

 So Itachi is either trying both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi on Naruto or he's activating Susanno.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 27, 2011)

Shadow_fox said:


> _Itachi used Tsukuyomi against Kakashi_
> 
> Interesting, did anyone notice that Itachi activated both eyes? In the top panel you see his right eyes already activated, and in the middle panel, middle row, you see his left eye activating.
> 
> So Itachi is either trying both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi on Naruto or he's activating Susanno.



Or he isn't using either jutsu yet, but the crow he put inside Naruto is programmed to activate when it faces two MS eyes. It would make only sense that the crow activates before he gets hit by a jutsu and not afterwards.


----------



## settings (Jul 27, 2011)

I find it interesting that Itachi activated the crow AFTER jumping in front of Nagato.

In other words, in case the crow provides some kind of offensive jutsu, it will be used simultaneously vs both Nagato and Itachi. For that reason, I believe that the crow will be used in order to seal or weaken Nagato and Itachi.

On the other hand, Itachi is probably the Akatsuki with the best knowledge of Orochimaru's techniques (he had to prepare himself before his fight vs Sasuke) and chances are that the crow will be used as some kind of Edo Tensei counter technique. As a result, Kabuto might suffer some damage, and he might lose control over Nagato and Itachi.

Whatever the case, the crow is obviously activated in order to provide a temporary power-up for Naruto.


----------



## T7 Bateman (Jul 27, 2011)

Well don't" know what it does but it can't stop MS then that really would be broken. Wonder if it can  be used once.


----------



## Nuuskis (Jul 27, 2011)

Hahaha that crow looked like it had trollface. 

But on serious note, I think that crow is there to defend Naruto against Mangekyo Sharingan's powers, including Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo.


----------



## Summers (Jul 27, 2011)

Where is the crow going to go I wonder? I mean it coming *Out* of Naruto? Itachi doesnt even seem to know what will happen, and he did not think that Naruto would get Nine tails mode. Will the crow fly back to Itachi?


----------



## Legend (Jul 27, 2011)

its making me excited for the next chapter


----------



## Juggernaut1985 (Jul 27, 2011)

Just confirms that Naruto spits and swallows.

In all seriousness, I think Itachi is getting the power he gave Naruto back.


----------



## Blaze (Jul 27, 2011)

It could be a way for Kishi to show the fans the EMS design for Itachi if he had taken Sasuke's eyes and gained the EMS.
/design talk

As for the what it actually does I always thought it was a Tsukuyomi that would release once Sasuke fights Naruto(and activate near the end of the fight) and it would show Sasuke the whole truth about the Uchiha massacre/Madara. Thus both Naruto and Sasuke teaming up to fight the final enemy.

But I guess it's pretty much dead.


I don't have a clue what it could be now.


----------



## Pastelduck (Jul 27, 2011)

Crows = Anti-Uchiha hax.


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 27, 2011)

Naruto is getting a new Doujutsu 

But seriously or Naruto gets a new Summon type , Fuuinjutsus or he'll get a Doujutsu . My money is on the Crow Summons


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Okay, so I think itachi actually coaxed the crow out deliberately through it being originally his. It is probably set to activate in combat with sasuke, since it didn't until itachi actually used his eye to bring it out.

It's not that it automatically came out, but he "called" it out.


----------



## truemitzu (Jul 27, 2011)

*The Crow's Eye*

Am I the only one who see's a pretty clear mix of sharingan and sage eye?  I have no real idea what this should mean, my best guess is some kind of modification from naruto's chakra/sage energy/9 tails chakra.  Thoughts?


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 27, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Naruto is getting a new Doujutsu
> 
> But seriously or Naruto gets a new Summon type , Fuuinjutsus or he'll get a Doujutsu . My money is on the Crow Summons



What good would a crow summons be? At the level Naruto's at a summon would be nothing but a toy. I say let Itachi make Naruto a Rikudou instead.


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 27, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> What good would a crow summons be? At the level Naruto's at a summon would be nothing but a toy. I say let Itachi make Naruto a Rikudou instead.



A Crow Summon that has MS Sharingan in the eyes isn't usefull ? Imagine having a Crow Summon that can use Ama and Tsuky


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 27, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> A Crow Summon that has MS Sharingan in the eyes isn't usefull ? Imagine having a Crow Summon that can use Ama and Tsuky



Well, that might be useful indeed, but do you honestly think such a jutsu would suit Naruto? The guy who fights with KB, raw chakra and Rasengan is supposed to get a remote controlled MS-lite?


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 27, 2011)

The first time Naruto swalowed the crow it was inside the illusion so it was most likely pure Yin/spiritual but after it absorbed Naruto's chakra it became both Yin-Yang,thats why Itachi needed both eyes to activate it. What would the purpose of the crow be ?
.
I still stand to my theory that the crow is just a plot device that will help Naruto to deal with MS techniques in the future. 
Itachi will say something like he hoped the crow poped out against Sasuke but Naruto will learn the mechanics of the crow jutsu and create a similar jutsu.
About the mechanics of the crow jutsu,i think its going to end up as a sealing jutsu that activates when Naruto sees a particular MS, what Naruto will end up doing is to create a sealing formula that works against all sorts of MS, he will train with Kakashi ones again.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Speach prediction for next chapter.

Naruto: Bleach! This is the second time my mouth tasted of crow.
*crow begins to circle around naruto*

Itachi: Well naruto, this would have come  as a surprise had I not been brought back, but now I can explain... What I have given you is a gift. By now, sasuke has reached a new plateau of power by taking my eyes, but I entrusted his fate with you. He has obtained eyes awakened by murder, the eyes I obtained from shisui, but there was another set. The mangekyou can be awakened without the stain of blood. I gave sasuke my eyes of penance, but I gave you the eyes of my salvation.

Naruto, you are the light, and by bestowing you with my pure eyes, My innocent eyes, they become your eyes that will never see darkness. Please use them to shine your light on sasuke.

NOW LOOK! OPEN YOUR EYES!
*Crow disappears, and naruto awakens a mature sharingan, and then his eien mangekyou*

I will give you the tools you need to survive sasuke and madara. Keep those eyes open, and counter everything I do, not in my color, but yours.




... Pants creamed.


----------



## pwny express (Jul 27, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.
> 
> Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world. "But wait lizardo, he needs some good ol tree blood in him to pull that one" and all I have to do is point at the crow who has been rotting in a pool of some of the densest energy on the planet, filled with god only knows how much konoha spirit and whatnot.
> 
> ...



an interesting idea, but i do have some difficulty in seeing itachi being able to forecast his own resurrection as an edo tensei.  this chapter in particular outlines how he wasn't able to predict that madara would be able to defend against amaterasu and eventually tell sasuke about his "secret mission."  such information leads me to believe the crow was given for protective purposes (from MS)and not as a method to come back to life after being resurrected as an edo tensei.  although i think your idea would make for a very interesting plot twist!


----------



## pwny express (Jul 27, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> It appears the crows power was programmed to lay dormant until the first time it encountered MS/EMS. Now it has activated and will assume it's intended purpose. Since Itachi talked about a test we can determine that it's not a one time deal. Although I certainly hope the regurgitation thingy is.
> 
> Now as for what the crow is supposed to do there are three possibilities that come to my mind immediately. Either it's a genjutsu defense designed to protect Naruto against Tsukiyomi or it's a way to completely negate/suppress the powers of the Mangekyou Sharingan or it's to make Naruto the 4th Rikudou.
> 
> ...



your rikudo theory is interesting, but i think you may be devaluing the power of tsukiyomi a bit.  of all techniques, naruto is most vulnerable to genjutsu and while it might seem easy to fight without looking into sasuke's eyes, i actually still don't see naruto being able to pull that off.

i foresee that using the crow as a defense against sasuke's tsukiyomi in the middle of a fight with naruto would lead toward extra emotional meaning in the battle, especially once naruto tells sasuke that itachi gave him that defense and for that reason i prefer MS defense as the crow's power.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

pwny express said:


> your rikudo theory is interesting, but i think you may be devaluing the power of tsukiyomi a bit.  of all techniques, naruto is most vulnerable to genjutsu and while it might seem easy to fight without looking into sasuke's eyes, i actually still don't see naruto being able to pull that off.
> 
> i foresee that using the crow as a defense against sasuke's tsukiyomi in the middle of a fight with naruto would lead toward extra emotional meaning in the battle, especially once naruto tells sasuke that itachi gave him that defense and for that reason i prefer MS defense as the crow's power.



If it IS genjutsu defense (even though itachi activated the amaterasu eye), then naruto's just got used up.

No better genjutsu defense than a sharingan .
It's more likely a mangekyou grown inside naruto.
My guess is mangekyou activated by murder are the ones that grow blind, but a properly awakened mangekyou, awakened through constant chakra pressure does not go blind permanently, but recovers.

IDK, my theories are flowing out like water right now...


----------



## CMCanavessi (Jul 27, 2011)

What if the crow is Itachi himself? That would be crazy.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

CMCanavessi said:


> What if the crow is Itachi himself? That would be crazy.



I am a genjutsu 

Rokudou mokuro turning I?


----------



## Artful Lurker (Jul 27, 2011)

*Itachi's Gift(Spoiler)*

So Itachi's gift is about to be revealed, so what do you think it is? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Seeing as the crow had mangekyou sharingan I think it's a MS the genjutsu sword and one of the SOSP's weapons


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

CMCanavessi said:


> What if the crow is Itachi himself? That would be crazy.


It would be funny if it was indeed a genjutsu message to Sasuke like Minato-in-Naruto-style, which Itachi would now get. Itachi would be talking to Sasuke who is himself.

But, I like the idea of it being a lot of spiritual energy or something.  I feel like it's probably going to be somewhat more mundane, but then again that MS seal is pretty unique.  And it doesn't make sense for Itachi to have an MS++.


----------



## Face (Jul 27, 2011)

Well we now know that it is not a message. 
I just hope Naruto learns how to activate the jutsu in a different way.  Cuz that looks really disgusting.


----------



## aiyanah (Jul 27, 2011)

i wager its a tsukiyomi counter


----------



## Raging Bird (Jul 27, 2011)

Naruto has his own customized Sharingan.


FUCK YEAH UCHIHA BIRDS.


----------



## JPuglisi (Jul 27, 2011)

Personally, I'd completely forgotten about the crow by now.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

It's Naruto's fully grown, personal mangekyou.

With all of these new things, I think that the mangekyou can naturally manifest, and do so without seeing blindness.  I think a natural EMS manifests by Keeping the sharingan open, active and fed with chakra.

Remind you of someone 

Yep, But I think the mangekyou must have enough chakra to sustain it's sight perpetually.

Either that, or it heals naturally with chakra, thus naruto with sage mode AND a Yoton chakra bijuu could possibly run it all day without harm.


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

My question is this.

When Naruto first swallowed the crow, he was in Itachis genjutsu. In other words its not like Itachi actually sent a REAL crow for Naruto to swallow, it was a more "spiritual" sort of thing right? Except now the crow is suddenly coming out in the middle of the fight in what looks like reality(Nagato&summons were still there).

The way I see it there are two obvious possibilities here.

The first is that Naruto is a freaking idiot that looked into Itachis MS eyes right after giving his warning to Bee not to do that, and as such he is already trapped in genjutsu and the crow is as illusionary as it always was. Though I guess there is some chance that Naruto is not caught in Tsukuyomi but rather a more ordinary illusion, though the fact that Itachi activated his MS just prior speaks against this. In either case, this would likely mean that the crow is just basic genjutsu defense that Itachi gave Naruto since he knew that Naruto sucks at it.

The second posssibility is that Naruto is not trapped in genjutsu and the crow has somehow become real. Madara did claim in only Madara's soldiers are heading towards HQ, not he himself that the original Rikudo who had both Uchiha and Senju powers was able to create real life, since Yin creates illusions, and then Yang can make that illusion into real life. So maybe thats whats happened here, the crow was merely a spiritual thing(Yin/Uchiha), but the whole super life-force(Uzumaki/Yang)  thing Naruto has going on has turned it into a real animal.

Maybe that was why Itachi was curious about what would happen. I wonder if the crow is going to stick around as a pet for Naruto from now on? Bee has got Samehada afterall . The continuing adventures of Naruto and the Super!MS!crow!

Regardless, it seems unlikely to me that Naruto would actually get the sharingan himself from this. That would just make Naruto way too hax. He already has RM(or chakra or whatever) hax to counter the EMS hax. If he had both RM and MS he would pretty much be able to defeat Sasuke&Madara easily. That would be boring.

Still, I do hope that whatever it is, its something more exciting than just basic genjutsu protection or a recorded message. That would be kind of disappointing.


----------



## HawkMan (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> It's Naruto's fully grown, personal mangekyou.


^I can safely say it's no "personal Mangekyou". 

Given the premise for its origin(Sasuke with the EMS) and the context with which it was used, the only viable option is a form of Mangekyou defense-a specific jutsu or seal.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2011)

Personally I can't shake the feeling that this crow is just Tsukuyomi, I.E. its not the crow Itachi gave him at all, rather Itachi is fucking with him in Tsukuyomi. I mean right before the crow comes out Naruto warns B about Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu and instantly before we see the Tsukuyomi mangekyo eye activate. Than Itachi says let's see what happens, but if it was his crow wouldn't he know what was going to happen? The let's see what happens comment would make more sense if Itachi wanted to see if Naruto could counter Tsukuyomi or not, rather than a auto programmed Jutsu, which Itachi already knew the effects of.

Than we have the fact that the crows eye has this weird Mangekyo formation, which seems to scream reality warp, to me.

Now i'm not saying i'm 100% sold on that idea, but it seems like it could be a distinct possibility.


----------



## DanE (Jul 27, 2011)

So every time Sasuke will use tsukyomi that crow will come out of Naruto's throat


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 27, 2011)

pwny express said:


> your rikudo theory is interesting, but i think you may be devaluing the power of tsukiyomi a bit.  of all techniques, naruto is most vulnerable to genjutsu and while it might seem easy to fight without looking into sasuke's eyes, i actually still don't see naruto being able to pull that off.
> 
> i foresee that using the crow as a defense against sasuke's tsukiyomi in the middle of a fight with naruto would lead toward extra emotional meaning in the battle, especially once naruto tells sasuke that itachi gave him that defense and for that reason i prefer MS defense as the crow's power.



I don't think I am disparaging Tsukiyomi's power, but its use in battle against an equal and forewarned opponent. All you need to do to avoid Tsukiyomi is to avoid eye contact. That's all. It's really nothing complicated.

Besides Itachi's Tsukiyomi is far more dangerous than Sasuke's is. Like Danzou said Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is only a pale shadow of Itachi's. Sasuke just isn't someone who specializes in genjutsu. Sure he uses them, but he relies mostly on ninjutsu.




dark messiah verdandi said:


> It's Naruto's fully grown, personal mangekyou.
> 
> With all of these new things, I think that the mangekyou can naturally manifest, and do so without seeing blindness.  I think a natural EMS manifests by Keeping the sharingan open, active and fed with chakra.
> 
> ...



Naruto with Sharingan would ruin his character. There isn't anything worse Kishi could do to Naruto.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Personally I can't shake the feeling that this crow is just Tsukuyomi, I.E. its not the crow Itachi gave him at all, rather Itachi is fucking with him in Tsukuyomi. I mean right before the crow comes out Naruto warns B about Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu and instantly before we see the Tsukuyomi mangekyo eye activate. Than Itachi says let's see what happens, but if it was his crow wouldn't he know what was going to happen? The let's see what happens comment would make more sense if Itachi wanted to see if Naruto could counter Tsukuyomi or not, rather than a auto programmed Jutsu, which Itachi already knew the effects of.
> 
> Than we have the fact that the crows eye has this weird Mangekyo formation, which seems to scream reality warp, to me.
> 
> Now i'm not saying i'm 100% sold on that idea, but it seems like it could be a distinct possibility.



It could be that Naruto has already been pulled into Tsukiyomi, but the crow is definitely coming out of him, though it may be doing so in the nonphysical world of Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Personally I can't shake the feeling that this crow is just Tsukuyomi, I.E. its not the crow Itachi gave him at all, rather Itachi is fucking with him in Tsukuyomi. I mean right before the crow comes out Naruto warns B about Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu and instantly before we see the Tsukuyomi mangekyo eye activate. Than Itachi says let's see what happens, but if it was his crow wouldn't he know what was going to happen? The let's see what happens comment would make more sense if Itachi wanted to see if Naruto could counter Tsukuyomi or not, rather than a auto programmed Jutsu, which Itachi already knew the effects of.
> 
> Than we have the fact that the crows eye has this weird Mangekyo formation, which seems to scream reality warp, to me.
> 
> Now i'm not saying i'm 100% sold on that idea, but it seems like it could be a distinct possibility.



But Itachi still has his mind at this point right? Both Itachi and Nagato were doing the usual edo thing where they try to help their opponents by warning what they are doing. Itachi even warned Bee to be carefull when he used ordinary genjutsu. Itachi KNOWS that Naruto sucks at fighting genjutsu, and there is no reason at all to assume RM would have made him immune. If Itachi knew he was going to use Tsukuyomi/activate his MS, would he not have screamed out a warning to Naruto to close his eyes or something? Instead he just acts neutrally curious with his "lets see what happens". Given that Itachi has basically but his trust in Naruto to stop Sasuke, does that behaviour really make sense? Would Itachi really act that way while doing a move that he knows could kill Naruto?

Then there is the fact that after this scene and the "could it be", having it turn out not to be related to the actual crow incident at all would be a major disappointment and a "screw you" to the fans. I just cannot see it happening.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Personally I can't shake the feeling that this crow is just Tsukuyomi, I.E. its not the crow Itachi gave him at all, rather Itachi is fucking with him in Tsukuyomi. I mean right before the crow comes out Naruto warns B about Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu and instantly before we see the Tsukuyomi mangekyo eye activate. Than Itachi says let's see what happens, but if it was his crow wouldn't he know what was going to happen? The let's see what happens comment would make more sense if Itachi wanted to see if Naruto could counter Tsukuyomi or not, rather than a auto programmed Jutsu, which Itachi already knew the effects of.
> 
> Than we have the fact that the crows eye has this weird Mangekyo formation, which seems to scream reality warp, to me.
> 
> Now i'm not saying i'm 100% sold on that idea, but it seems like it could be a distinct possibility.



Itachi's comment makes sense if he designed the crow to activate in order to protect Naruto against doujutsu or genjutsu. Kabuto is the one controlling Itachi, and Itachi's comment is simply stating that he's curious to see if his power works out like he planned.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2011)

You guys could be right and its the actual crow, like I said i'm not totally sold on the idea that its a Genjutsu, but I can't shake the feeling that Kishi would troll by just making it a Genjutsu. I mean this scene reminds me a-lot of when Itachi came out during the Danzo fight and everyone thought it was some trap designed to defeat Danzo and it was just a Genjutsu. But ether way i'm interested in seeing what happens.


----------



## Eth (Jul 27, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> Finally, my current favorite Itachi intends to make Naruto a Rikudou by granting him his spiritual powers. Naruto wouldn't get a doujutsu, but just the spiritual strength of the Uchiha chakra. That would make him a mirror from Tobi who was born with the spiritual strength and acquired the physical energy. This spiritual strength would give Naruto the strength to break out of Tsukiyomi with sheer force of will and he might become able to counter Izanagi.



ROFL
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bearzerger again."
...and I don't even recognize your nick, now that's a compliment. ^_^

I love what you're saying about being a mirror to Tobi.  That would be a great turn if Madara is the final villain.  Part of me feels, though, that it's to awesome to be true because I like it too much. 



bearzerger said:


> I'm getting a bit tired of people who spout some nonsense about how Kishi screwed up for absolutely no reason ...


Here here.  Whenever I sit down to read these forums, it's inevitable that I come across at least one post which leaves me wondering 'why does s/he still read the manga' as I leave.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Datakim said:


> My question is this.
> 
> When Naruto first swallowed the crow, he was in Itachis genjutsu. In other words its not like Itachi actually sent a REAL crow for Naruto to swallow, it was a more "spiritual" sort of thing right? Except now the crow is suddenly coming out in the middle of the fight in what looks like reality(Nagato&summons were still there).



It was a real crow in a genjutsu that had fake crows.
The genjutsu was used to disorient naruto, while the crow actually raped his mouth.
Itachi is very good for that... making things look like crows, like shuriken, or moar crowz!




> The way I see it there are two obvious possibilities here.
> 
> The first is that Naruto is a freaking idiot that looked into Itachis MS eyes right after giving his warning to Bee not to do that, and as such he is already trapped in genjutsu and the crow is as illusionary as it always was. Though I guess there is some chance that Naruto is not caught in Tsukuyomi but rather a more ordinary illusion, though the fact that Itachi activated his MS just prior speaks against this. In either case, this would likely mean that the crow is just basic genjutsu defense that Itachi gave Naruto since he knew that Naruto sucks at it.


So it's a genjutsu crow that beats... An eye that sees through genjutsu?
If it was a permanent version of utsusemi, then it would simply have been implanted directly into the eye. 

If it is a genjutsu in NARUTO'S mind, then it couldn't very well affect anyone else, could it?






> The second posssibility is that Naruto is not trapped in genjutsu and the crow has somehow become real. Madara did claim in 5 that the original Rikudo who had both Uchiha and Senju powers was able to create real life, since Yin creates illusions, and then Yang can make that illusion into real life. So maybe thats whats happened here, the crow was merely a spiritual thing(Yin/Uchiha), but the whole super life-force(Uzumaki/Yang)  thing Naruto has going on has turned it into a real animal.
> 
> Maybe that was why Itachi was curious about what would happen. I wonder if the crow is going to stick around as a pet for Naruto from now on? Bee has got Samehada afterall . The continuing adventures of Naruto and the Super!MS!crow!


Or perhaps he was interested in how the mangekyou would be shaped, or if it had even begun to manifest within naruto???
The crow is real, that is for sure.



> Regardless, it seems unlikely to me that Naruto would actually get the sharingan himself from this. That would just make Naruto way too hax. He already has RM(or chakra or whatever) hax to counter the EMS hax. If he had both RM and MS he would pretty much be able to defeat Sasuke&Madara easily. That would be boring.
> 
> Still, I do hope that whatever it is, its something more exciting than just basic genjutsu protection or a recorded message. That would be kind of disappointing.



1. How would it protect against genjutsu? And then it also happens that genjutsu isn't even the most dangerous ability the MS has. We haven't even seen if things like Izanagi work against it.

2. If it was a recorded message, then Itachi just wasted it, didn't he. Especially if it was meant for sasuke.
The gift was just in case sasuke had become evil, now that sasuke is confirmed as evil, Itachi forcibly brought it out. If it is just for canceling genjutsu independently, then Susano'o is going to rape it something fierce.





HawkMan said:


> ^I can safely say it's no "personal Mangekyou".
> 
> Given the premise for its origin(Sasuke with the EMS) and the context with which it was used, the only viable option is a form of Mangekyou defense-a specific jutsu or seal.


Well, you can seal doujutsu within people, and whole kekkei genkai.
Yamato has mokuton. Everyone has sharingan.
Why exactly is it just a magic crow, and not naruto's own harvested sharingan? It IS a unique mangekyou, with an unseen stigma.







Turrin said:


> Personally I can't shake the feeling that this crow is just Tsukuyomi, I.E. its not the crow Itachi gave him at all, rather Itachi is fucking with him in Tsukuyomi. I mean right before the crow comes out Naruto warns B about Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu and instantly before we see the Tsukuyomi mangekyo eye activate. Than Itachi says let's see what happens, but if it was his crow wouldn't he know what was going to happen? The let's see what happens comment would make more sense if Itachi wanted to see if Naruto could counter Tsukuyomi or not, rather than a auto programmed Jutsu, which Itachi already knew the effects of.
> 
> Than we have the fact that the crows eye has this weird Mangekyo formation, which seems to scream reality warp, to me.
> 
> Now i'm not saying i'm 100% sold on that idea, but it seems like it could be a distinct possibility.


Let's see what happens... with tsukuyomi?




DanE said:


> So every time Sasuke will use tsukyomi that crow will come out of Naruto's throat


That is why it being a permanently seperate being is just... undesirable.
It hurts enough having the crow rip itself from his throat.




bearzerger said:


> I don't think I am disparaging Tsukiyomi's power, but its use in battle against an equal and forewarned opponent. All you need to do to avoid Tsukiyomi is to avoid eye contact. That's all. It's really nothing complicated.
> 
> Besides Itachi's Tsukiyomi is far more dangerous than Sasuke's is. Like Danzou said Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is only a pale shadow of Itachi's. Sasuke just isn't someone who specializes in genjutsu. Sure he uses them, but he relies mostly on ninjutsu.


Sasuke doesn't have a tsukuyomi.
He has sharingan genjutsu, and that is what Danzo compared to tsukuyomi.
He said Itachi's tsukuyomi, since it was itachi's signature douryouku, and no-one else had it. Madara wasn't even known to him, and no one else had mangekyou.

He said "your genjutsu was nothing compared to itachi's tsukuyomi"
Not "Your tsukuyomi doesn't compare".

Tsukuyomi is noted by it's short duration with it's LONG effect. Sasuke's genjutsu actually lasted for a pretty long time. For example, his genjutsu with Itachi in it lasted long enough for him to kill danzou without him knowing it. Tsukuyomi would have been done as soon as it started.

And his minor genjutsu lasted for a whole minute.
that is NOT tsukuyomi.



> Naruto with Sharingan would ruin his character. There isn't anything worse Kishi could do to Naruto.


Powers don't really ruin characters. Bad writing does.
What if he made naruto fall in love with chouji? Turned the manga into a husky boy's love genre manga?

Far worse than gaining the kamehameha of doujutsu.
Can you realize how many characters had that?
Kame-sennin
Kuririn
Goku
Gohan
Yamcha
Goten
Goku junior
Pan
Gotenks
Gogeta
vegeto
Cell
Ubb
Boo


C'MON!
Some series have powers that everyone eventually has.
If you had read Samurai deeper kyo, you wouldn't have a thing to say.
That is worse than


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> It was a real crow in a genjutsu that had fake crows.
> The genjutsu was used to disorient naruto, while the crow actually raped his mouth.
> Itachi is very good for that... making things look like crows, like shuriken, or moar crowz!



I find the idea that the crow was always real unlikely, considering how it was made clear that the whole conversation between Itachi and Naruto where the crow went into Naruto was a genjutsu. I suppose its possible in theory since we did see the seal-toad enter into Narutos mouth (poor guy, forced to swallow all sorts of animals. Tonton should be carefull.) like the crow did, but I find the idea that the crow was more "spiritual" to match the whole genjutsu/Uchiha/Yin-thing to be more probable.

I suppose we will find out next week if the crow is real. I will say that the reactions from Nagato and Bee would likely be amusing when Naruto suddenly and without warning throws up a real living crow in mid-battle. Lots of !!?!? there I think.



> So it's a genjutsu crow that beats... An eye that sees through genjutsu?
> If it was a permanent version of utsusemi, then it would simply have been implanted directly into the eye.
> 
> 
> If it is a genjutsu in NARUTO'S mind, then it couldn't very well affect anyone else, could it?



Umm, not sure I understand? It could simply be somekind of anti-genjutsu seal in the form of a crow from one of the foremost masters of genjutsu in the series. And whenever Naruto gets trapped in Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi, the crow breaks it. Given all the stuff that has been shown to be possible (such as sealing huge monsters into little babies), the idea of a genjutsu breaking crow is not a big deal. Not my favourite theory but completely possible.



> Or perhaps he was interested in how the mangekyou would be shaped, or if it had even begun to manifest within naruto???
> The crow is real, that is for sure.



no way to know yet.



> 1. How would it protect against genjutsu? And then it also happens that genjutsu isn't even the most dangerous ability the MS has. We haven't even seen if things like Izanagi work against it.



We don't know that. First of all, for Naruto, genjutsu is the most lethal attack. He can potentially avoid Amaterasu (especially with RM) and break through Susanoo with brute force, but he has never been good at genjutsu. Both times Naruto met Itachi, he easily defeated Naruto by trapping him into a genjutsu, it would make logical sense from Itachis POV to protect Naruto from the one thing Sasuke uses that Naruto cannot fight, genjutsu.

Second, I don't deny the possibility that the crow could not have anti-MS powers beyond just genjutsu. Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto and it and its powers can affect the outside world. It is not beyond reason that the crow could not help against Susanoo/Amaterasu while still not being "physical". However that does not mean that Naruto himself gets the eyes.

Oh, and Sasuke does not have Izanagi, only Madara has that.



> 2. If it was a recorded message, then Itachi just wasted it, didn't he. Especially if it was meant for sasuke.
> The gift was just in case sasuke had become evil, now that sasuke is confirmed as evil, Itachi forcibly brought it out. If it is just for canceling genjutsu independently, then Susano'o is going to rape it something fierce.



This is only true if its a one time thing. It could be something that is not depleted after a single use, so even if the message plays out now, it can still play again for Sasuke. I admit this is quite unlikely though (since it would totally ruin the Sasuke vs Naruto encounter if we learned the message now). Another possibility is that it really was wasted, though I doubt that too since I would have expected Itachi to react in a more upset manner if so. Message is not my favourite theory either. 



> Well, you can seal doujutsu within people, and whole kekkei genkai.
> Yamato has mokuton. Everyone has sharingan.
> Why exactly is it just a magic crow, and not naruto's own harvested sharingan? It IS a unique mangekyou, with an unseen stigma.



Umm, where?

Yamato did not have Mokuton sealed inside him, he was the product of a complex genetic engineering. Itachi did seal Amaterasu in Sasuke, but that was a specific jutsu in an Uchiha who already had the sharingan, and it only lasted for a brief moment. There is a big jump from that to turning Narutos eyes into sharingan.



> Powers don't really ruin characters. Bad writing does.
> What if he made naruto fall in love with chouji? Turned the manga into a husky boy's love genre manga?



The way the writing has been going has so far been leading towards the idea of a repeat of the "good" younger brother vs "evil" older bother conflict with younger having the physical powers (Naruto) while the older has the eyes (Sasuke). Naruto suddenly getting the Sharingan would work against that idea in my view. It is not impossible I guess (especially if Madara really is the final villain since he could be said to have both), but even so it would be way too early for it at this point. We have barely seen what RM can do, so the idea that Naruto would get the most powerfull eyes of the Uchiha just like that is very improbable.

If Naruto has both the MS eyes that Sasuke has, and in addition an incredibly deadly RM mode, how could Sasuke be any challenge to Naruto? The whole Sasuke vs Naruto is clearly building up to RM vs EMS thing in my view, and Naruto getting a doujutsu would break that.


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (Jul 27, 2011)

I hope we get flashbacks damnit according to the past.

Sasuke can shit bricks when sees that crow.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I think it might be a Tsukuyomi defense.  Itachi's left Mangekyou formed right before the crow popped out.



I guess it's this after all. At first I always thought the crow would be an auto message for Sasuke, but it'd be silly for Itachi to have a message for himself!


----------



## jacamo (Jul 27, 2011)

normally i would comment 

but im still picking up the pieces of my brain after my mind exploded

 i want the next chapter ASAP

EDIT: Dat Crow 

oh and thank god its not just a god damn message


----------



## Reddan (Jul 27, 2011)

At this moment I hope it is an MS seal, which will stop Itachi from using the MS, but that seems likely. At the moment think it may still be a message about the exact events and ramifications of the Uchiha massacre, which he wants Naruto to know, since he knows the partial truth.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 27, 2011)

FFS, did Naruto actually swallow a _*real*_ crow and had it in him all this time?


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> FFS, did Naruto actually swallow a _*real*_ crow and had it in him all this time?



Meh, the toad was a lot bigger. 5

Itachi is a cool and all, but when it comes to the size of stuff that has gone down Narutos throat, he has nothing on Fukasaku.


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jul 27, 2011)

it's defiantly a defense against MS


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jul 27, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> FFS, did Naruto actually swallow a _*real*_ crow and had it in him all this time?



Animal abuse.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Datakim said:


> I find the idea that the crow was always real unlikely, considering how it was made clear that the whole conversation between Itachi and Naruto where the crow went into Naruto was a genjutsu. I suppose its possible in theory since we did see the seal-toad enter into Narutos mouth (poor guy, forced to swallow all sorts of animals. Tonton should be carefull.) like the crow did, but I find the idea that the crow was more "spiritual" to match the whole genjutsu/Uchiha/Yin-thing to be more probable.


Well, spirit is a real thing in this manga.
A tangible substance. For it to be filled in naruto is simply chakra filling the crow up.



> I suppose we will find out next week if the crow is real. I will say that the reactions from Nagato and Bee would likely be amusing when Naruto suddenly and without warning throws up a real living crow in mid-battle. Lots of !!?!? there I think.


Can't wait for the rap.

"Woah, little bro, you've been caught eatin crow, Didn't get it out fast, but up-chucked in slow-mo."





> Umm, not sure I understand? It could simply be somekind of anti-genjutsu seal in the form of a crow from one of the foremost masters of genjutsu in the series. And whenever Naruto gets trapped in Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi, the crow breaks it. Given all the stuff that has been shown to be possible (such as sealing huge monsters into little babies), the idea of a genjutsu breaking crow is not a big deal. Not my favourite theory but completely possible.



Naruto: Sasuke! Are you going to use genjutsu in this fight? Wait... let me get my crow ready "burp...BARF!"
Lets go karasu-kun!
*SQUAWK!*

Sasuke:... gross.




> no way to know yet.


Hmm...




> We don't know that. First of all, for Naruto, genjutsu is the most lethal attack. He can potentially avoid Amaterasu (especially with RM) and break through Susanoo with brute force, but he has never been good at genjutsu. Both times Naruto met Itachi, he easily defeated Naruto by trapping him into a genjutsu, it would make logical sense from Itachis POV to protect Naruto from the one thing Sasuke uses that Naruto cannot fight, genjutsu.


That is a conclusion that you came Upon by knowledge of all of naruto's abilities. And a SERIOUS underrating of sasuke's abilities and fighting style.
What about that sword? Or Kirin?

It makes sense for a fan to rationalize it only being genjutsu defense, because it is the only glaring hole he has. But they won't go for the most obvious and likely way because... because they don't like it.

We have seen doujutsu transfered, but we have NOT seen a genjutsu kawarimi. that is what you are asking for, a genjutsu kawarimi.
But you have to be hit with a genjutsu kawarimi.



> Second, I don't deny the possibility that the crow could not have anti-MS powers beyond just genjutsu. Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto and it and its powers can affect the outside world. It is not beyond reason that the crow could not help against Susanoo/Amaterasu while still not being "physical". However that does not mean that Naruto himself gets the eyes.
> 
> Oh, and Sasuke does not have Izanagi, only Madara has that.


So... why WON'T he get the eyes? Its far more simple to give him the eyes, right? why not?

Also, naruto IS going to be facing madara.



> This is only true if its a one time thing. It could be something that is not depleted after a single use, so even if the message plays out now, it can still play again for Sasuke. I admit this is quite unlikely though (since it would totally ruin the Sasuke vs Naruto encounter if we learned the message now). Another possibility is that it really was wasted, though I doubt that too since I would have expected Itachi to react in a more upset manner if so. Message is not my favourite theory either.



Nothing says it is a message.
And what good would a message do?
If it was prerecorded, then sasuke would have really listened?





> Umm, where?
> 
> Yamato did not have Mokuton sealed inside him, he was the product of a complex genetic engineering. Itachi did seal Amaterasu in Sasuke, but that was a specific jutsu in an Uchiha who already had the sharingan, and it only lasted for a brief moment. There is a big jump from that to turning Narutos eyes into sharingan.



It was for a moment, but there is a difference.
Itachi's Tensha Fuin Amaterasu was cast right before he died of chakra exhaustion, and this crow fused with naruto into the depths of his body.
Sasuke's was a jutsu seal, where it seems like naruto's is a completely different eye.





> The way the writing has been going has so far been leading towards the idea of a repeat of the "good" younger brother vs "evil" older bother conflict with younger having the physical powers (Naruto) while the older has the eyes (Sasuke). Naruto suddenly getting the Sharingan would work against that idea in my view. It is not impossible I guess (especially if Madara really is the final villain since he could be said to have both), but even so it would be way too early for it at this point. We have barely seen what RM can do, so the idea that Naruto would get the most powerfull eyes of the Uchiha just like that is very improbable.


That is if you assume that the physical powers can even win.
You are thinking in the wrong way. That naruto is equal to sasuke. Foolishness. He isn't. Having a lot of chakra is great in some fights, but sasuke... sasuke isn't that kind of fighter at all.

Itachi was planning towards an EMS sasuke, not just MS, being evil.
It's beyond what we have seen. Remember that the EMS imparts a second doujutsu that is equal to everything that has come before.






> If Naruto has both the MS eyes that Sasuke has, and in addition an incredibly deadly RM mode, how could Sasuke be any challenge to Naruto? The whole Sasuke vs Naruto is clearly building up to RM vs EMS thing in my view, and Naruto getting a doujutsu would break that.


Oh, it won't.
Unlike sasuke, naruto has not undergone the eye transplant. Sasuke is sitting on power that naruto can't reach.


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Well, spirit is a real thing in this manga.
> A tangible substance. For it to be filled in naruto is simply chakra filling the crow up.



You know what I mean, spirit may be tangible in the manga in some fashion but its hardly the same as solid objects.



> Naruto: Sasuke! Are you going to use genjutsu in this fight? Wait... let me get my crow ready "burp...BARF!"
> Lets go karasu-kun!
> *SQUAWK!*
> 
> Sasuke:... gross.



Hehehe 

I will say this though, while seeing Naruto throw up a crow and seeing Sasukes reaction would be funny, I doubt Sasuke would actually find it gross. He did spend 3 years with Orochimaru afterall. That guy was the master at this stuff afterall. And its not like Sasuke would  bother trying to use Tsukuyomi multiple times after seeing that it would be useless, so Naruto would only throw up a single crow.



> That is a conclusion that you came Upon by knowledge of all of naruto's abilities. And a SERIOUS underrating of sasuke's abilities and fighting style.
> What about that sword? Or Kirin?



Are you seriously claiming that Sasuke could beat the current RM Naruto with a sword? No question that Sasuke is skilled, but with RM Naruto moves so incredibly fast and with his chakra arms that Sasuke would not have a chance in close combat. Same with Kirin considering the buildup required. Sasuke needs EMS to match RM, anything else is just silly. Sasukes true power is in his eyes, not in physical combat.



> It makes sense for a fan to rationalize it only being genjutsu defense, because it is the only glaring hole he has. But they won't go for the most obvious and likely way because... because they don't like it.



It would make sense from Itachis perspective. In all his encountes with Naruto, he won through genjutsu.



> We have seen doujutsu transfered, but we have NOT seen a genjutsu kawarimi. that is what you are asking for, a genjutsu kawarimi.
> But you have to be hit with a genjutsu kawarimi.



Umm, what?

A seal in the form of a crow (which Itachi always uses) that disrupts a specific jutsu that he himself has mastered to a degree that Sasuke has not is hardly impossible.



> So... why WON'T he get the eyes? Its far more simple to give him the eyes, right? why not?



Simply because I don't think it would fit Naruto. There is nothing to even suggest it. Just suddenly plunking Naruto with MS with no warning would be just bizarre.

And because having Sharingan would give Naruto a far too big of a powerboost. With RM speed and MS predictive abilities and powers I simply cannot see how anything could stop Naruto.



> Also, naruto IS going to be facing madara.



True, but if he were to get the eyes to match Madara, it would cetainly be after his fight with Sasuke, not now. And even then possibly after Madara gets Juubi.



> Nothing says it is a message.
> And what good would a message do?
> If it was prerecorded, then sasuke would have really listened?



A crow suddenly coming from Narutos mouth and taking the form of Itachi who would plead Sasuke to return to Konoha would certainly be a shock to Sasuke. Given how unstable Sasuke is currently, I am not sure if he would listen but given that he claims his war is all for Itachi, having a message from Itachi asking him to do the opposite would certainly have some impact. Though again, I don't really like the message idea since its so boring.



> It was for a moment, but there is a difference.
> Itachi's Tensha Fuin Amaterasu was cast right before he died of chakra exhaustion, and this crow fused with naruto into the depths of his body.
> Sasuke's was a jutsu seal, where it seems like naruto's is a completely different eye.



But giving someone who has no Uchiha blood at all a permanent MS is just wild and a big jump from sealing a single jutsu. Maybe it could happen but it just seems unlikely.



> That is if you assume that the physical powers can even win.
> You are thinking in the wrong way. That naruto is equal to sasuke. Foolishness. He isn't. Having a lot of chakra is great in some fights, but sasuke... sasuke isn't that kind of fighter at all.



Umm, they can. If EMS could not be defeated, the Uchiha led by Madara would have easily dominated the Senju all those years ago. Naruto has speed far beyond what Sasuke can manage that would allow him to avoid Amaterasu. And if Danzos wind attack could penetrate Susanoo, then RM and its extremely powerfull chakra should be able to aswell. I cannot predict whatever specific powers EMS might bring, so that only leaves Tsukuyomi.



> Itachi was planning towards an EMS sasuke, not just MS, being evil.
> It's beyond what we have seen. Remember that the EMS imparts a second doujutsu that is equal to everything that has come before.



Sure, but Naruto has the RM which is showing to be pretty good too. Don't forget that Zetsu for instance thought that SM Naruto was equal or even stronger to MS Sasuke. Sasuke has gotten an upgrade yes, but so has Naruto.



> Oh, it won't.
> Unlike sasuke, naruto has not undergone the eye transplant. Sasuke is sitting on power that naruto can't reach.



I doubt EMS is going to be that awe-inspiring because of Madara. He was ultimately defeated despite having it afterall. Sasuke will no doubt be very strong with his new eyes, but not undeatable and I doubt he will even be at the same level as Madara (who is likely the final villain afterall).


In truth, neither of us really knows whats going to happen and we are just guessing. I think its best just to wait for the next chapter. Who knows, maybe you are right and Naruto will get his new eyes and I will be forced to eat crow.


----------



## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 27, 2011)

Shadow_fox said:


> Is it just me, or does that crow look like it grew? I mean when it was first see, it's whole body fit in Naruto's mouth, now only his head is as big as Naruto's mouth.
> 
> Also they eye might be an effect of Kyuubi's chakra.



I also noticed that... I think it's probably because it absorbed either Naruto's or the nine-tails' chakra.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 27, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> FFS, did Naruto actually swallow a _*real*_ crow and had it in him all this time?


Honestly, I'm surprised the crow didn't run into the frog.


----------



## UuRai (Jul 27, 2011)

It may be a defensive crow against sharingan. But I think it's a messenger crow for Sasuke, Sasuke will talk or read the eye of the crow like a barcode reader does and something will happen. It's like Talk no jutsu. And I am sure it will be Naruto's last resort against Sasuke.


----------



## Jinchuriki-san (Jul 27, 2011)

I wonder if the Mangekyo design belongs to Naruto. Like if Naruto had a sharingan and awakens MS, that would be the pattern we see in his eye. Curious thought...


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised the crow didn't run into the frog.


----------



## Seraphiel (Jul 27, 2011)

Isn't the shape the crows eye has a just a normal sharingan turning into Itachi's  MS?


Also since Itachi is testing it out, maybe it won't be used up this fight and stays to save Naruto from Sasuke and make him immune to MS shenanigans


----------



## KazeYama (Jul 27, 2011)

This makes no sense. Serious wtf moment. I was thinking Naruto was actually improving and that we would see what hidden thing Itachi implanted in naruto. Then it turns out the crow...was just a crow. Naruto had a crow living in him for weeks or months jut chilling out. Also if the crow is somehow beneficial then how is Itachi activating it at all. He can talk freely but isn't Edo Tensei supposed to restrict him from only using aggressive and offensive jutsu? It wasn't ever really explained how edo tensei pick what jutsu they use at what time since they aren't supposed to have any control. Kabutomaru definitely didn't know about the crow. The whole thing is just another stupid ass plot no jutsu from Kishi.


----------



## Summers (Jul 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> You guys could be right and its the actual crow, like I said i'm not totally sold on the idea that its a Genjutsu, but I can't shake the feeling that Kishi would troll by just making it a Genjutsu. I mean this scene reminds me a-lot of when Itachi came out during the Danzo fight and everyone thought it was some trap designed to defeat Danzo and it was just a Genjutsu. But ether way i'm interested in seeing what happens.



I dont see how that would be a troll by kishi.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Also since Itachi is testing it out, maybe it won't be used up this fight and stays to save Naruto from Sasuke and make him immune to MS shenanigans



Maybe, though it would be lame for Naruto to rely on something powerful enough to handle an Edo Tensei Itachi.

I think with Itachi observing how strong Naruto has become that he'll decide Naruto doesn't need the crow for Sasuke and use it to defeat/free himself instead.


----------



## Haloman (Jul 27, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised the crow didn't run into the frog.



Technically, the frog would have been running into the crow since it was in there first.

Either way, it's clearly some magical-but-real being. Because entering through the mouth should result in living in the stomach, which should result in becoming waste material. I'll afford the crow the same ability.

As for what the crow's going to do... it's going to turn out to be a portion of Itachi's self! Set aside to help combat Sasuke! And then he'll eventually vanish when he runs out of chakra. Like Tidus from FFX. Or the Green Power Ranger. Or Captain Planet.


----------



## Shadow050 (Jul 27, 2011)

KazeYama said:


> This makes no sense. Serious wtf moment. I was thinking Naruto was actually improving and that we would see what hidden thing Itachi implanted in naruto. Then it turns out the crow...was just a crow. Naruto had a crow living in him for weeks or months jut chilling out. Also if the crow is somehow beneficial then how is Itachi activating it at all. He can talk freely but isn't Edo Tensei supposed to restrict him from only using aggressive and offensive jutsu? It wasn't ever really explained how edo tensei pick what jutsu they use at what time since they aren't supposed to have any control. Kabutomaru definitely didn't know about the crow. The whole thing is just another stupid ass plot no jutsu from Kishi.



well... it's not juust a normal crow lol. it's a chakra crow. it's itachi's power in the form  of a crow.

this coul lead to some BS in itachi's favor... if HIS power when alive returns to him, kishi might pull something.

either way, i'm think the power itachi gave naruto, reacted to the MS.

remember, when naruto saw sasuke, his eyes were already burned out, and sharingan, much less the mangekyou, was off.

madara's eyes have always been on normal shaingan mode when we see them.... that too would explain why it has reacted.

kakashi's MS hasn't been on around naruto either, and the power would most likely only activate when an MS technique is directed AT naruto anyway.


----------



## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 27, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.
> 
> Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world. "But wait lizardo, he needs some good ol tree blood in him to pull that one" and all I have to do is point at the crow who has been rotting in a pool of some of the densest energy on the planet, filled with god only knows how much konoha spirit and whatnot.
> 
> ...



I also thought the crow might be for freeing Itachi in some manner.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Datakim said:


> You know what I mean, spirit may be tangible in the manga in some fashion but its hardly the same as solid objects.


Yes, but the crow was real...
The genjutsu ended Before the crow was completely swallowed.
Made a thread about it.



> Hehehe
> 
> I will say this though, while seeing Naruto throw up a crow and seeing Sasukes reaction would be funny, I doubt Sasuke would actually find it gross. He did spend 3 years with Orochimaru afterall. That guy was the master at this stuff afterall. And its not like Sasuke would  bother trying to use Tsukuyomi multiple times after seeing that it would be useless, so Naruto would only throw up a single crow.


I guess you are right.
He did think oro was gross though...



> Are you seriously claiming that Sasuke could beat the current RM Naruto with a sword? No question that Sasuke is skilled, but with RM Naruto moves so incredibly fast and with his chakra arms that Sasuke would not have a chance in close combat. Same with Kirin considering the buildup required. Sasuke needs EMS to match RM, anything else is just silly. Sasukes true power is in his eyes, not in physical combat.


Well, he has fought raikage, and I would say that he could move at a similar rate if he really tried. Sasuke ain't no slouch when it comes to speed, and he also has the ability to control the battlefield.

And then there was movement prediction.
Sasuke can make his sword deadly sharp too.
I don't need a giganto-explodithon to be satisfied with a fight.



> It would make sense from Itachis perspective. In all his encountes with Naruto, he won through genjutsu.


Right, and the best genjutsu defense is a sharingan isn't it.
It is...inefficient to make some kind of crow that appears every time.



> Umm, what?
> 
> A seal in the form of a crow (which Itachi always uses) that disrupts a specific jutsu that he himself has mastered to a degree that Sasuke has not is hardly impossible.


So does he hang out all the time? This Mangekyou Crow?
Is he going to be a familiar, or does he fly in and out of naruto's innards? Every time...




> Simply because I don't think it would fit Naruto. There is nothing to even suggest it. Just suddenly plunking Naruto with MS with no warning would be just bizarre.


That is the way it goes.
Just two weeks ago, madara implanted sharingan and rin'negan into six jinchuuriki corpses.

Sage mode didn't fit naruto either. Naruto and Meditation is almost an oxymoron, or it WAS.
Hell, frogs aren't really naruto's "style" if you will, but the thing is he is the paragon of the will of fire. The lives of those who have faith in him manifest in their tutalage.

And it wasn't just plunked on... It has been apart of the plan since chapter 299 or so. It just seems plunked on to you. Kishi has this shit written out.




> And because having Sharingan would give Naruto a far too big of a powerboost. With RM speed and MS predictive abilities and powers I simply cannot see how anything could stop Naruto.


Well, that depends on how often he uses it. If he is conservative with it's use, he's good.




> True, but if he were to get the eyes to match Madara, it would cetainly be after his fight with Sasuke, not now. And even then possibly after Madara gets Juubi.


From where?
He has to defeat Itachi and Nagato here and now, and If you haven't noticed... their jutsu aren't working. Physical jutsu are going to take naruto NOWHERE. And it's not going to be easier.



> A crow suddenly coming from Narutos mouth and taking the form of Itachi who would plead Sasuke to return to Konoha would certainly be a shock to Sasuke. Given how unstable Sasuke is currently, I am not sure if he would listen but given that he claims his war is all for Itachi, having a message from Itachi asking him to do the opposite would certainly have some impact. Though again, I don't really like the message idea since its so boring.



What would he really say?
Stop?




> But giving someone who has no Uchiha blood at all a permanent MS is just wild and a big jump from sealing a single jutsu. Maybe it could happen but it just seems unlikely.


It FEELS unlikely.
But that feeling happens a lot when things like this happen.
I remember the day when RS was said to be a senju and an Uchiha.
People exploded. I cheered.




> Umm, they can. If EMS could not be defeated, the Uchiha led by Madara would have easily dominated the Senju all those years ago. Naruto has speed far beyond what Sasuke can manage that would allow him to avoid Amaterasu. And if Danzos wind attack could penetrate Susanoo, then RM and its extremely powerfull chakra should be able to aswell. I cannot predict whatever specific powers EMS might bring, so that only leaves Tsukuyomi.


See, the thing you aren't accounting for is MS's ability to create douryouku.
Itachi's jutsu were the ones he was taught. However, as we have seen, they can create new douryouku instantly.
All those things like 



> Sure, but Naruto has the RM which is showing to be pretty good too. Don't forget that Zetsu for instance thought that SM Naruto was equal or even stronger to MS Sasuke. Sasuke has gotten an upgrade yes, but so has Naruto.


Oh, his showings have been great!
Kicked far more tail than I thought he would, but fans thinking he is ready, and kishi KNOWING if he is are two different things.
Kishi says he needs a power of itachi's, and if itachi were to give sasuke EMS, the only gift that even comes close that he has access to just happened to manifest itself. A brand new MS.


For years we have wandered what that gift was, and it happened to be MS, now it's like naruto fans don't want him stronger. you all like strength don't you?




> I doubt EMS is going to be that awe-inspiring because of Madara. He was ultimately defeated despite having it afterall. Sasuke will no doubt be very strong with his new eyes, but not undeatable and I doubt he will even be at the same level as Madara (who is likely the final villain afterall).


It is said he was defeated, but he is alive.
We don't know what MS jutsu he had. That early in it's existence means he could have had none. They don't come with instruction manuals.

Sasuke's first encounter with it's true power was when he gained enton. He wanted to change something, looked at it, focused, and changed it. THAT is the power of MS. not tsukuyomi,susano'o,or amaterasu. Those are abilities that it can create.
But the power itself is of Ocular psychokinetics.
The power to control time,space,matter and energy with the eyes.



> In truth, neither of us really knows whats going to happen and we are just guessing. I think its best just to wait for the next chapter. Who knows, maybe you are right and Naruto will get his new eyes and I will be forced to eat crow.


----------



## qwijibo (Jul 27, 2011)

I don't think Kishi would arbitrarily draw a completely new MS design for something as trivial as a genjutsu counter.

I am hopeful that this is a sharingan ability we have not seen before. As we have already seen Izanagi (Sharingan + Senju), this may be Izanami (MS + Uzumaki). My guess is that it is a sealing jutsu meant to capture but not kill Sasuke. Instead Itachi will indirectly use it on himself.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 27, 2011)

What if it's a forbidden jutsu that resurrects people and it's been feeding off of the 9 tails chackra this whole time to power it? can you imagine how much of a twist that would be if itachi got back into action? or what if it was something to break the hold kabuto has on him?  or what if he copied orochimaru's immortality jutsu some kind of way?

In my opinion that would be great and it will also show itachis potential to it's fullest.


----------



## americaoffline (Jul 27, 2011)

it's 80% of itachi's power that he put into the crow before he went to fight sauce.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

qwijibo said:


> I don't think Kishi would arbitrarily draw a completely new MS design for something as trivial as a genjutsu counter.
> 
> I am hopeful that this is a sharingan ability we have not seen before. As we have already seen Izanagi (Sharingan + Senju), this may be Izanami (MS + Uzumaki). My guess is that it is a sealing jutsu meant to capture but not kill Sasuke. Instead Itachi will indirectly use it on himself.



Itachi: NARUTO! YOU WERE MY OTHER, OTHER SPARE!


If it were a sealing jutsu, hypothetically, as you said, there would be no need for a new mangekyou stigma.
In fact, unless a new eye is going to be had, there is no reason for new mangekyou stigma.

You can't just change your own like that.
I say, that crow's sharingan has been on the whole time, and it has been feeding on naruto's chakra. Because of that, it was naruto's chakra that opened it's eyes to mangekyou state.

Now, either Itachi is going to absorb the eyes himself (no reason why), It is some kind of super crow that is going to be naruto's new buddy, throat raping him anytime his chakra is unbalanced (boo), Or those are naruto's new eyes ()


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Jul 27, 2011)

qwijibo said:


> I am hopeful that this is a sharingan ability we have not seen before. As we have already seen Izanagi (Sharingan + Senju), this may be Izanami (MS + Uzumaki).



That's what I'm hoping for.  And considering that Izanami was a goddess of both creation and death, I can't help wondering what kind of jutsu that would be.  

The other possibility I think is likely is that it's an Izanagi, generated by Itachi's Uchiha power marinating in Naruto's Senju chakra.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Or those are naruto's new eyes ()



I know its unlikely but how badass would it be if by the crowjob as technically it satisfies Madaras condition to become a RS [Senju plus Uchiha] Naruto became by about 5 minute RS and sealed Itachi and Nagato


----------



## qwijibo (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Itachi: NARUTO! YOU WERE MY OTHER, OTHER SPARE!
> 
> 
> If it were a sealing jutsu, hypothetically, as you said, there would be no need for a new mangekyou stigma.
> ...



Izanagi has special properties because of the Uchiha + Senju (Yin/Yang) combo. 

This new MS is likely the result of Uchiha + Uzukami/Kyuubi (Yin/Yang)

It uses MS instead of standard sharingan and Uzumaki + kyuubi instead of Senju, so it may be even stronger than Izanagi.

Whatever it is, it will be powerful. I suspect a hax sealing ability because it would fit well in both scenarios. Sealing is what Naruto needs against edo tensei, and I think Itachi would prefer to seal Sasuke instead of kill him.


----------



## MS81 (Jul 27, 2011)

I bet that crow have 40-50% of Itachi's chakra which why it manifest into a new MS design.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 27, 2011)

Or maybe giving Naruto 5 minutes or so of RShood to defeat Sasuke without killing him since the power gap would allow for Naruto to meassure his attacks and still hold Sasuke at bay.

Though I suspect the crow will have either a great toll like leaving Naruto completely exhausted after using it to the point of faint or will have extrmelly hard requirements for use.

If so the "lets see" would make sense, he wants to see if by comnbining Naruto a Senju with his Uchiha powers can produce the results to defeat the Itachi Nagato combo.


----------



## Datakim (Jul 27, 2011)

(510)THIZZ said:


> What if it's a forbidden jutsu that resurrects people and it's been feeding off of the 9 tails chackra this whole time to power it? can you imagine how much of a twist that would be if itachi got back into action? or what if it was something to break the hold kabuto has on him?  or what if he copied orochimaru's immortality jutsu some kind of way?
> 
> In my opinion that would be great and it will also show itachis potential to it's fullest.



Would not make sense since it would strech disbelief to the breaking point to assume that Itachi was able to anticipate not just that he would be raised from the dead as an edo, but also that he would meet Naruto after that. I doubt Itachi will come back, but if he does, I think it will be because of some strange accident with the crow rather than design. The crow was meant to help with Sasuke afterall.


----------



## MS81 (Jul 27, 2011)

I bet it has to do with the love/hatred thing!!!


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I know its unlikely but how badass would it be if by the crowjob as technically it satisfies Madaras condition to become a RS [Senju plus Uchiha] Naruto became by about 5 minute RS and sealed Itachi and Nagato


Probably going to happen 





qwijibo said:


> Izanagi has special properties because of the Uchiha + Senju (Yin/Yang) combo.
> 
> This new MS is likely the result of Uchiha + Uzukami/Kyuubi (Yin/Yang)
> 
> ...



I wouldn't mind him being able to etch sealing jutsu in the air as a personal douryouku. Actually, that would be kind of badass. Ranged fuinjutsu seals. Sadly, naruto would actually have to educate himself in sealwork first.

But that would be easy with a new sharingan...
Oh, it's just so good. Best thing about it is training sessions will be so much cooler now.
Now we might be able to peer into what jutsu REALLY look like.


----------



## falsepod (Jul 27, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Been a while since I posted but first off, BOTH eyes are active (top panel has the right, the one bellow is the left because the eyebrow is slanted in such a way). So if he is using both eyes he most likely is not using Amaterasu or tsukuyomi. That leaves us with susanoo and izanagi...or some new found plot device/power. Assuming Kishi isn't bored and wants to think of a way to top the ability to make ANYTHING come true (izanagi folks), then I am left with two options.
> 
> Main stream thought says a sealing or counter spell to Uchiha powers, giving naruto the means to stop Sasuke and Madara, similar to what the 3rd did to Oro (and for avatar fans, its like what the avatar did to the fire lord). Now, the more fun theory is that the crow is pulling a horcrux (harry potter reference folks) type move where Itachi has a chance to slip back into the realm of the living and make things right in the world. "But wait lizardo, he needs some good ol tree blood in him to pull that one" and all I have to do is point at the crow who has been rotting in a pool of some of the densest energy on the planet, filled with god only knows how much konoha spirit and whatnot.
> 
> ...



I'm in for this. Itachi back in the story as an active member instead of a puppet would be awesome. I know however that a vast majority of readers would be bitching about an asspull if Kishi does it though. Tbh, its probably not going to happen.

My two cents, this is some sort of jutsu to seal/ maybe even absorb Susanoo. Itachi's just unleashed both mangekyou so you know that's where he's going.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

falsepod said:


> I'm in for this. Itachi back in the story as an active member instead of a puppet would be awesome. I know however that a vast majority of readers would be bitching about an asspull if Kishi does it though. Tbh, its probably not going to happen.
> 
> My two cents, this is some sort of jutsu to seal/ maybe even absorb Susanoo. Itachi's just unleashed both mangekyou so you know that's where he's going.



There is a problem... how does he assume that sasuke doesn't have more powers than that. Douryouku aren't inherent, they are created. And with EMS, sasuke has supreme creative freedom.
How can naruto defeat freedom? Really?

With his own dose of good ol' doujutsu democracy, that's how.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

Oh. I figured it out. The crow awakened its own Mangekyou Sharingan when Naruto learned the truth about pain from Pain. Being exposed to the Kyuubi chakra can only have helped. Because Naruto awakened it, the Mangekyou Sharingan takes a different shape than Itachi's.

Maybe the crow will return to Itachi and grant him a pseudo-Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, freeing him from Kabuto in the process.


----------



## falsepod (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> There is a problem... how does he assume that sasuke doesn't have more powers than that. Douryouku aren't inherent, they are created. And with EMS, sasuke has supreme creative freedom.
> How can naruto defeat freedom? Really?
> 
> With his own dose of good ol' doujutsu democracy, that's how.



In what way? EMS doesn't make him Rikkudo. Not only that we have no idea whether EMS would allow him to use Izanagi without losing the light. My guess would be that he can't. EMS or no Izanagi requires a sharingan as payment. It will allow him to spam top tier jutsu without tiring his eyes however.


----------



## 4ghost (Jul 27, 2011)

It may have been said already, but I don't think that crow has really made it's appearance at all.  I think Itachi caught Naruto in Tsukuyomi and is maybe going to follow that with an Amaterasu attack on one of his limbs.  Therefore giving us a glimps of Naruto being able to handle those two jutsu.

Naruto will be able to recognize/escape this genjutsu because of the Chakra modes ill intent sensing ability.  Itachi's genjutsu will work upon all of the senses that he is aware of from sight, sound, sent, touch and taste.  The ability to sense ill intent will be something that Itachi can't comprehend, therefore his genjutsu will be incomplete.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

4ghost said:


> It may have been said already, but I don't think that crow has really made it's appearance at all.  I think Itachi caught Naruto in Tsukuyomi and is maybe going to follow that with an Amaterasu attack on one of his limbs.  Therefore giving us a glimps of Naruto being able to handle those two jutsu.
> 
> Naruto will be able to recognize/escape this genjutsu because of the Chakra modes ill intent sensing ability.  Itachi's genjutsu will work upon all of the senses that he is aware of from sight, sound, sent, touch and taste.  The ability to sense ill intent will be something that Itachi can't comprehend, therefore his genjutsu will be incomplete.



Then what is the point of the crow? That's not a sign of being trapped in genjutsu, it's something that was actually placed in Naruto which we've been waiting to see for three years(!) now.

Also, Naruto knows better than to keep looking at Itachi's eyes once he activated the Mangekyou Sharingan. He warned Bee as much. He probably looked away as soon as the Amaterasu eye turned on, before the Tsukiyomi eye could activate and trap him. But it was too late to stop the crow from being activated.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Oh. I figured it out. The crow awakened its own Mangekyou Sharingan when Naruto learned the truth about pain from Pain. Being exposed to the Kyuubi chakra can only have helped. Because Naruto awakened it, the Mangekyou Sharingan takes a different shape than Itachi's.
> 
> Maybe the crow will return to Itachi and grant him a pseudo-Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, freeing him from Kabuto in the process.



If it ISN'T a innocent awakening, then seeing hinata almost die could do the trick. It was naruto's own powerlessness that caused that scene. He could have blamed himself, raged, opened up that MS, and Turned into kyuubi.

But yeah, I think it's innocent.

As far as it going back to itachi, that would SUCK for naruto.
SUCK.



falsepod said:


> In what way? EMS doesn't make him Rikkudo. Not only that we have no idea whether EMS would allow him to use Izanagi without losing the light. My guess would be that he can't. EMS or no Izanagi requires a sharingan as payment. It will allow him to spam top tier jutsu without tiring his eyes however.



In what way?
Well, lets see... There is sure proof that douryouku are created since
1. Kakashi INVENTED kamui
2.Sasuke INVENTED enton.
3. Sasuke RECREATED itachi's Douryouku
4. Sasuke INVENTED his own susano'o weapons.

It is a power of invention, not inheritance. 
And sasuke was only able to use it in battle, while kakashi theorized kamui.
All of them work that way. You have an idea, and work out the chakra manipulations you need to do in your head, Turn on the MS, point and click.

It's a very theoretic power, which allows one to affect things optically.


Now, why do you think Izanagi has an absolute toll?
MS had one of those at first too, and now there was a loophole.
If you have an item that protects against poison, and a power that poisons everyone on the field, does that Item not protect you from poison while having all others suffer the effects?

Now if there is an eye that protects against "blind", and a douryouku that allows you to warp reality, with blind as side-effect with the cost of chakra, then it seems like that eye that never looses light would give all the benefits, with none of the cost.

The EMS just never looses light. It's not that MS jutsu don't have an adverse effect anymore, but that it gains resistance to blindness. It cancels it out. No reason why not being able to go blind wouldn't cancel out... going blind.


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 27, 2011)

The unintended effects of the crow....

I'm guessing that the original purpose of the crow was for Naruto to have it for limited use.  A remnant of Itachi's chakra, like how Minato left parts of his and Kushina's chakra behind, to be activated in the proper moment.  I'm guessing that it was originally designed to activate at the presence of the MS, to activate as an independent chakra being to disrupt genjutsus and control amaterasu's movements the way Itachi use to do it.

Note the previous scenes before the revelation of the crow.  Bee was caught in a genjutsu, and the eight tails snapped him out of it.  Also note how Itachi was surprised at how Naruto is now able to control the 9-tails chakra, but little does he know that he does not fully control the kyuubi, but only subdue it and take its chakra (not friendly with it like Bee is with his).  All perhaps Kishi's way to remind us of the limitations Naruto still has if he is to go up against the MS/EMS.

Having said that, now look back at the image of Rikudo and KM Naruto.  It is obvious that there is a similarity, especially the hair/horn features plus the tomoe like features on the chest area.  However, Naruto looks like a naked Rikudo and Rikudo himself has a cloak.......

As it was mentioned by Yamato, the RM Naruto chakra is so full of life energy/yang.  Genjutsu is yin, and we are reminded of this chakra concept last chapter by one of the edo kages.  Kishi tends to dwell on concepts when he is in a certain thought pattern writing arcs, such as the training arc of Naruto when learning rasen-shuriken.  Kishi was very into nature manipulation/nature even went as far as making one of the akatsuki adept in all five and giving sasuke the ability to manipulate lightning.  He is obviously into yin/yang chakra as of late.

The unintended effect of the crow....

Given the enormous yang power of RM Naruto chakra, and how it brings forth life, I believe that the reason the crow has grown is for this very reason.  The Itachi chakra that was designed to be of limited capacity, has been given life in the purest form (a purer version of Madara's cloning of Shodaime).

Now here is the funny part.  Think of it like Ichigo's fullbring cloak when it first came out(bleach reference) or Allen Walker's crowned clown innocence (d-gray man reference).  This new living chakra will probably fuse into this RM mode form and act like a living cloak, looking like the cloak/garment of the original Rikudo, making Naruto look like him.  It will probably have independent defensive movements like Gaara's sand, thereby acting like a second entity if Naruto is under a genjutsu (since he is not friendly with the kyuubi), and act as an ultimate defense (an alternate version of Susanoo via kyuubi chakra and uchiha chakra).

So basically, Naruto will become the symbol of the true spirit of the Uchiha (which is Itachi's power and sacrifice ), and the symbol of true peace, between the bloodlines of the two sons of Rikudo.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 27, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> If it ISN'T a innocent awakening, then seeing hinata almost die could do the trick. It was naruto's own powerlessness that caused that scene. He could have blamed himself, raged, opened up that MS, and Turned into kyuubi.
> 
> But yeah, I think it's innocent.
> 
> ...



Why? It's not like Naruto needs it. Well, it might come in handy against Sasuke and Madara, but wouldn't it be better to see Naruto beat them with his own power? Also, I doubt that Naruto's eyes are capable of using Sharingan chakra directly, let alone Mangekyou Sharingan chakra.


----------



## qwijibo (Jul 27, 2011)

jgalt7 said:


> The unintended effects of the crow....
> 
> I'm guessing that the original purpose of the crow was for Naruto to have it for limited use.  A remnant of Itachi's chakra, like how Minato left parts of his and Kushina's chakra behind, to be activated in the proper moment.  I'm guessing that it was originally designed to activate at the presence of the MS, to activate as an independent chakra being to disrupt genjutsus and control amaterasu's movements the way Itachi use to do it.
> 
> ...


The crow becoming Naruto's cloak would be epic win.


----------



## wibisana (Jul 27, 2011)

I just read and I conclude it is anti Mangekyo sharingan
and triggered by Itachi's jutsu
it's self defense for naruto.
but I wonder is it reusable?
well... Itachi said it is for Sasuke, but kishi made it come out now.


----------



## Missing_Nin (Jul 27, 2011)

naruto will get rinnegan.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 27, 2011)

jgalt7 said:


> The unintended effects of the crow....
> 
> I'm guessing that the original purpose of the crow was for Naruto to have it for limited use.  A remnant of Itachi's chakra, like how Minato left parts of his and Kushina's chakra behind, to be activated in the proper moment.  I'm guessing that it was originally designed to activate at the presence of the MS, to activate as an independent chakra being to disrupt genjutsus and control amaterasu's movements the way Itachi use to do it.


Then it would have itachi's Mangekyou.
Itachi gave sasuke amaterasu, and even with a sharingan of his own, AND his own MS, It used ITACHI'S mangekyou.

This guy has a unique mangekyou.




> Note the previous scenes before the revelation of the crow.  Bee was caught in a genjutsu, and the eight tails snapped him out of it.  Also note how Itachi was surprised at how Naruto is now able to control the 9-tails chakra, but little does he know that he does not fully control the kyuubi, but only subdue it and take its chakra (not friendly with it like Bee is with his).  All perhaps Kishi's way to remind us of the limitations Naruto still has if he is to go up against the MS/EMS.


Okay...



> Having said that, now look back at the image of Rikudo and KM Naruto.  It is obvious that there is a similarity, especially the hair/horn features plus the tomoe like features on the chest area.  However, Naruto looks like a naked Rikudo and Rikudo himself has a cloak.......
> 
> As it was mentioned by Yamato, the RM Naruto chakra is so full of life energy/yang.  Genjutsu is yin, and we are reminded of this chakra concept last chapter by one of the edo kages.  Kishi tends to dwell on concepts when he is in a certain thought pattern writing arcs, such as the training arc of Naruto when learning rasen-shuriken.  Kishi was very into nature manipulation/nature even went as far as making one of the akatsuki adept in all five and giving sasuke the ability to manipulate lightning.  He is obviously into yin/yang chakra as of late.
> 
> ...


Hmm.

1. RS didn't wear a cloak.
He wore a fundoshi and pants (fundoshi is a type of sleaved short kimono shirt. Sasuke wore one when he was apart of otogakure)

2. I thought it was naruto's intention to tame kyuubi.
Crow,fox,frog... Some type of freaky yokai? Gonna be ugly.
Perhaps the fox provides the cloak, and the mangekyou provides the... Mangekyou?



> So basically, Naruto will become the symbol of the true spirit of the Uchiha (which is Itachi's power and sacrifice ), and the symbol of true peace, between the bloodlines of the two sons of Rikudo.


True spirit of rikudou would make sense. It's all about harmony.
Senju were about love and reverence, while uchiha were about power and domination. Too much love without power to keep it safe is silly, and too much domination without reverence creates dissent.

Harmony... Harmony is perfect.



Marsala said:


> Why? It's not like Naruto needs it. Well, it might come in handy against Sasuke and Madara, but wouldn't it be better to see Naruto beat them with his own power? Also, I doubt that Naruto's eyes are capable of using Sharingan chakra directly, let alone Mangekyou Sharingan chakra.


Did he really need Bijuu chakra mode?
Not really... with the key he could have simply used KN0 till the day he died and never lost control. It is 25 times stronger than his base mode. That and sage mode would have been fine.

Did he really need FRS? No... It's overkill. Oodama rasengan kills pretty good.

Naruto doesn't need plenty. Imagine what a really skillful ninja could have done with his stamina alone. 


And "beat with his own power?"
This is NARUTO. That is a fallacy. 
Killer Bee is using a Bijuu, Samehada, and kumogakure wrasslin moves.
Nagato is using borrowed eyes, and summons.
Naruto has been mainlining bijuu chakra since he left Bee's house.
Sure it's his power, but at the same time it is a seperate consciousness.

Also, naruto's will of fire???
That is what he does. He gains power from those who have faith in him.
They entrust the future they couldn't develop in his hands.

Also, Itachi gave it to him to develop. It IS his power.


----------



## ♣Doflamingo♣ (Jul 27, 2011)

The crow is almost for sure some sort of genjutsu defense, but I don't think that's it. 

My hunch is that it contains a genjutsu in and of itself that will show Naruto the truth behind the Uchiha massacre and Itachi's role in it.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Did he really need Bijuu chakra mode?
> Not really... with the key he could have simply used KN0 till the day he died and never lost control. It is 25 times stronger than his base mode. That and sage mode would have been fine.
> 
> Did he really need FRS? No... It's overkill. Oodama rasengan kills pretty good.
> ...



Itachi gave the crow to Naruto to do something to Sasuke, almost certainly by leaving Naruto's body as it is doing now. It was always a loan. And Naruto should never gain the Sharingan, let alone the Mangekyou Sharingan; it would clash with his style too much. (It is quite possible that some Uchiha power could have been left over and help Naruto awaken Rinnegan, though.) 

Besides, it's a moot point. The crow is already leaving Naruto's body. It's no longer part of him.


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (Jul 28, 2011)

"Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha."

 sounds sorta right if Itachi is taking safety measures on Naruto.


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Then it would have itachi's Mangekyou.
> Itachi gave sasuke amaterasu, and even with a sharingan of his own, AND his own MS, It used ITACHI'S mangekyou.
> 
> This guy has a unique mangekyou.
> ...



like i said, unintended.....the little guy having its own type of MS is again, unintended consequence of yang chakra (might be a prelude to how kakashi's kamui methods in terms of chakra....since kishi is still hung up on the yin/yang chakra thing)

as far as the cloak reference, i know rikudo didn't have a cloak, but some sort of robe or garment, but is merely an analogy of the naked look of RM naruto......i see a cloak more in the style of yondaime's or jiraiya, not completely covering the yellow aspect.

naruto's power is in essence a culmination of the power of all the people he knows.......if you really think about it.......so in essence he will be fighting with his own power, via a torch bearer of the fire of everyone he met.......


----------



## wibisana (Jul 28, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Itachi gave the crow to Naruto to do something to Sasuke, almost certainly by leaving Naruto's body as it is doing now. It was always a loan. And Naruto should never gain the Sharingan, let alone the Mangekyou Sharingan; it would clash with his style too much. (It is quite possible that some Uchiha power could have been left over and help Naruto awaken Rinnegan, though.)
> 
> Besides, it's a moot point.* The crow is already leaving Naruto's body. It's no longer part of him*.



thats my question and i believe no one answer it yet
Is it reusable...
I mean, it was purposed for Sasuke and will be lame if used now, and not reusable


----------



## Marsala (Jul 28, 2011)

wibisana said:


> thats my question and i believe no one answer it yet
> Is it reusable...
> I mean, it was purposed for Sasuke and will be lame if used now, and not reusable



The point of Itachi being impressed by Naruto's growth at the start of the chapter is that Itachi now realizes that Naruto won't need his power to deal with Sasuke, so it might as well be used here to solve the current crisis.

As for the crow being reusable, well, anything's possible at this point. The crow might deep throat itself back into Naruto once its work is done here. Itachi could give Naruto another one. Hell, it could have built a nest and so there could be still more crows down there. 

But at the moment, the crow is leaving Naruto's body so it is already not his power anymore.


----------



## sweep (Jul 28, 2011)

was that sharingan trap/defense in sasuke's eyes against madara an one off?

crows seem to be mostly weapons in disguise. did itachi use the yata mirror in his battle against sasuke?


----------



## wibisana (Jul 28, 2011)

Marsala said:


> The point of Itachi being impressed by Naruto's growth at the start of the chapter is that Itachi now realizes that Naruto won't need his power to deal with Sasuke, so it might as well be used here to solve the current crisis.
> 
> As for the crow being reusable, well, anything's possible at this point. The crow might deep throat itself back into Naruto once its work is done here. Itachi could give Naruto another one. Hell, it could have built a nest and so there could be still more crows down there.
> 
> But at the moment, the crow is leaving Naruto's body so it is already not his power anymore.



yea I am so interested on that crow, and forget other facts on that chapter...
my bad 
well even it is not reusable, I think Itachi know that naruto doesn't need his help.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Itachi gave the crow to Naruto to do something to Sasuke, almost certainly by leaving Naruto's body as it is doing now. It was always a loan. And Naruto should never gain the Sharingan, let alone the Mangekyou Sharingan; it would clash with his style too much. (It is quite possible that some Uchiha power could have been left over and help Naruto awaken Rinnegan, though.)
> 
> Besides, it's a moot point. The crow is already leaving Naruto's body. It's no longer part of him.


Itachi gave him the crow, as insurance.
And because he planned to die, it wasn't a loan. It was a gift. Loans are repaid. Itachi died the very day he gave it to naruto, because he was planning on dying.

And Sharingan doesn't cramp his style.
Not even close. It enhances his style. You just don't like sharingan (on naruto at least).
I think it is fine. Kishi has used the red-eye parallel between naruto and sasuke often. Now they have matching eyes. One is primarily black, the other red.

What jutsu can naruto NOT perform because he has sharingan?
Not a single one. He still has those kage bunshin, and henge, and kuchiyose, and rasengan. If anything, he just gained something AWESOME.

Can you imagine naruto's pranks with a sharingan? Whole nother level.
Whole nother level.

Also, it is his style to be given jutsu and the like.
Is kyuubi his style? No. It is a giant hatred fox. Naruto is all about love.

Is sage mode his style? No. It's jiraya's. Naruto can't even finish a bowl of worms. He also isn't very daoist-y.

Naruto's style is taking shit from other people's style and putting... stank on it if you will .
His own flavor. I can see some EXCELLENT genjutsu coming from konoha's 1# showstopping comedy ninja.


And the crow might just fly into naruto's eyes, or explode and his blood turn into a fuin-jutsu that change naruto's eyes.
I like explodey-crow better.


jgalt7 said:


> like i said, unintended.....the little guy having its own type of MS is again, unintended consequence of yang chakra (might be a prelude to how kakashi's kamui methods in terms of chakra....since kishi is still hung up on the yin/yang chakra thing)
> 
> as far as the cloak reference, i know rikudo didn't have a cloak, but some sort of robe or garment, but is merely an analogy of the naked look of RM naruto......i see a cloak more in the style of yondaime's or jiraiya, not completely covering the yellow aspect.
> 
> naruto's power is in essence a culmination of the power of all the people he knows.......if you really think about it.......so in essence he will be fighting with his own power, via a torch bearer of the fire of everyone he met.......


I will never understand why cloaks are such a big... fashion accessory in manga. They look derpy.
I like robes on two things. Jedi, and women who take their clothes off as soon as they put them on.

But I understand the whole luminous thing.
I kind of wish he could turn the radiance down... just a tad.
Maybe have a slight unearthly glow? Maybe sage mode could... pull it in some.
Like the perfected super-saiyan mode... That one was the best


----------



## Tempest (Jul 28, 2011)

All I gotta say is, this chapter and the reappearance of the crow resparked my interest in Naruto as if it was the second coming of Jesus.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Tempest said:


> All I gotta say is, this chapter and the reappearance of the crow resparked my interest in Naruto as if it was the second coming of Jesus.



It is...

I don't think people understand HOW powerful naruto will be with his sharingan.
He could speed-read legend of a gutsy ninja... AND MEMORIZE IT PERFECTLY FOREVER.

Nothing beats an evangelist who knows what he is talking about.

NARUTO: Let us turn to the 18th chapter of the good book, where Naruto says
"You should give up on me giving up!" Am I gonna have to testify UP IN HYUUH?!


----------



## Yami_no_Princess (Jul 28, 2011)

I was so right, wow, I don't know what to think. I just figured since he obtained the crow in a genjutsu, if he was ever put under a genjutsu he would barf it up and it would either cancel or counter or reverse the genjutsu. I was right about the barfing up the crow part, let's see what happens.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Yami_no_Princess said:


> I was so right, wow, I don't know what to think. I just figured since he obtained the crow in a genjutsu, if he was ever put under a genjutsu he would barf it up and it would either cancel or counter or reverse the genjutsu. I was right about the barfing up the crow part, let's see what happens.



I made a thread about this...

The crow was real. The whole Murder of crows was real.
The thing is, One crow activated his sharingan, used it on naruto asked him some preliminary questions, and dove into his mouth.

Going inside broke it's genjutsu, because it wasn't focusing on it anymore, but on tunneling down naruto's innards.

Read "Brothers" and "Tears" Again.
Itachi did two things. Release about 6 crows, and disperse himself, revealing that he was infact about 20 more crows.

The crows were real because he was the crows. He interacted with naruto, which shows he was a karasu bunshin.
The confusion comes from itachi using a genjutsu of his karasu bunshin technique during his fight with sasuke.

Each of the karasu bunshin BEFORE the fight was made of real crows.
When he fought sasuke the SECOND time, they were genjutsu.


----------



## Ibb (Jul 28, 2011)

I've always believed that Naruto would get the Sakigari Long Sword and the Yata Mirror.


----------



## narutored23 (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Speach prediction for next chapter.
> 
> Naruto: Bleach! This is the second time my mouth tasted of crow.
> *crow begins to circle around naruto*
> ...


An overexaggerating fanboydum how typical


----------



## Hexa (Jul 28, 2011)

Ibb said:


> I've always believed that Naruto would get the Sakigari Long Sword and the Yata Mirror.


Itachi "transferred" the power to Naruto, so I think it has to be a power he didn't use during the Uchiha fight.  I feel like if Naruto was to get a "sacred equipment", it would be the Yasakani magatama.  Since Totsuka is a Kusanagi sword, Itachi had two of the three "sacred treasures" on his Susano'o, and that makes one think "what about the third?"


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Hexa said:


> Itachi "transferred" the power to Naruto, so I think it has to be a power he didn't use during the Uchiha fight.  I feel like if Naruto was to get a "sacred equipment", it would be the Yasakani magatama.  Since Totsuka is a Kusanagi sword, Itachi had two of the three "sacred treasures" on his Susano'o, and that makes one think "what about the third?"



It's kind of a new mangekyou though...
Douryouku are... tricks you can perform with the Mangekyou.
The true power is actually the power to do them. Optical PK is the closest approximation to what it's power is.

Changing your imagination into a physical effect. It's not like... easy breezy because you still have to conceptualize, calculate, and test an actual douryouku before you use it (just like creating jutsu).
The difference is no hands.

Now, if such an Item DOES exist, and naruto infact gains the doujutsu, Itachi can communicate to naruto within a multi-layered tsukuyomi and show him how to re-create such an item.
Or just show him how to face to face.



narutored23 said:


> An overexaggerating fanboydum how typical


Come see me next Wednesday.


----------



## sweep (Jul 28, 2011)

Ibb said:


> I've always believed that Naruto would get the Sakigari Long Sword and the Yata Mirror.


I think this would fit with the theme of passing down legacies to the next generation as found in Naruto.

Itachi dedicated his life to protect Konoha and Sasuke. Naruto is following the same path. 

Itachi has chosen Naruto as his successor. In inheriting the legendary weapons it can be seen as something meaningful, ie symbolic more than just another a power up.




Hexa said:


> Itachi "transferred" the power to Naruto, so I think it has to be a power he didn't use during the Uchiha fight.  I feel like if Naruto was to get a "sacred equipment", it would be the Yasakani magatama.  Since Totsuka is a Kusanagi sword, Itachi had two of the three "sacred treasures" on his Susano'o, and that makes one think "what about the third?"


If the weapons are physical, they were kept in another dimension? Possibly why Orochimaru couldn't locate the sword because it was in another dimension?


----------



## Tempest (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> multi-layered tsukuyomi



I`d become the biggest Itachi fan if this actually happens. That`s so badass.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Tempest said:


> I`d become the biggest Itachi fan if this actually happens. That`s so badass.



He's done it before, remember?

He was like 
"let me show you your clan's past, my child" And then the genjutsu "ended", and then he was like " You are my spare sasuke! your light will be mine!" and then he was like " so did you see my monster? Now I am going to take your eyes for real and it was all a genjutsu."

All that happened in a second, but he switched from normal genjutsu to tsukuyomi right at the beginning of "my light".


That was like a quadruple fake out.
He showed him a movie.
Killing intent.
Him ripping out his eye.
And him going to rip his eye out again.

Not to mention, sasuke went back with his eidetic memory and realized that there was a fifth layer where he was talking about how much of a cock madara was.

Itachi... he is good at what he does.
He intended for sasuke to break out eventually, thus set up a tsukuyomi made of useless taunts and braggadocio.

It was NOT Kakashi's tsukuyomi.
Not close.


----------



## Tempest (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> He's done it before, remember?
> 
> He was like
> "let me show you your clan's past, my child" And then the genjutsu "ended", and then he was like " You are my spare sasuke! your light will be mine!" and then he was like " so did you see my monster? Now I am going to take your eyes for real and it was all a genjutsu."
> ...



Wait a minute what? Those weren`t layered Tsukuyomi though were they? That bastard got me too then if so.


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 28, 2011)

I thought it was a way to nullify Madara's space-time shit.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 28, 2011)

Tempest said:


> Wait a minute what? Those weren`t layered Tsukuyomi though were they? That bastard got me too then if so.



When I say layered, I don't mean itachi cast tsukuyomi more than once.
To layer tsukuyomi, you only need to cast it once.

The thing is, it casts so fast that either your mind and the victims is taken into another dimension outside of time (likely), or it is a genjutsu purely based on algorithms.
By that, I mean one action elicits one reaction, another does another, so forth.

While The minds being taken to an alternate spirit dimension actually makes a LOT of sense to me now, It does have at least some algorithmic function. You can "set it and forget it".

Now, creating layers would consist of

1. Creating different illusionary locations.
2. Having one activate once a certain algorithm is met.


For example. A bedroom, a lava pit, a field of mouse traps and a whorehouse.


One casting of tsukuyomi could last four hours at max

Level one is a bedroom. A Giant bedroom. to exit it, one must either kill themselves, or fight a giant housecat. Either way, after an hour you either replay the level or progress.

Level two is a lava pit, You either sit in the lava pit for an hour, or drink the lava. After an hour you progress or restart at level one.

Level three would be a mouse trap field, and you are a mouse.
Either you walk across the field for an hour, or eat some rodent bait and suffer for the hour without moving. After the hour is up you progress or move to level one.

 Level four is a whorehouse. But you have to sleep with the worst person that comes to mind for an hour. Either that or disfigure your genetalia for an hour. After the hour, you either progress or start at level one.


And it keeps looping until you finish.
That would be an example of an algorithm in tsukuyomi. 
Now, It can be multi-layered since your consciousness can exist on different bodies in tsukuyomi.


One body could be doing one thing, while another does whatever.
The subconscious body could be gaining information, while the conscious one is in a phantasmagoria.

Without a sharingan, one wouldn't be able to see through the subconsciously hidden message, but someone with a sharingan could, since it give eidetic memory.


----------



## takL (Jul 28, 2011)

the crow may have 3 legs...

and the power may well give naruto
'Izana*mi*'. 
it has to come out eventually as its significant other has been there for a while already.


----------



## Faustus (Jul 28, 2011)

Theory.
Crow is Itachi's chakra.
And chakra in Naruto usually takes form of its previous wielder like Minato or Kushina.
So, basically I think this crow is the same. It's a clone of Itachi.
What's more interesting and why Itachi said "Let's see what happens" is that this clone is not under ET control. He is not under direct Itachi's control either. So maybe, just maybe, he'll be able to do something about braking Kabuto's control with MS like Madara broke his control over 6 jins.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 28, 2011)

It probably is Tsukiyomi defense. And Itachi probably used Tsukiyomi on Naruto and the crow will cancel it out. Then Naruto will have to use his own power to break Sasuke's Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Sollet (Jul 28, 2011)

I don't think anyone has brought this up but after seeing the eye design of the crow that came out of Naruto's mouth, I am convinced it must be a Mangekyo sharingan or related..

Anyways my point with this is that we know that MS = 100% Kyuubi Control... Maybe this is what Naruto needs in order to fully control the kyuubi and it's chakra.

I don't think the Kyuubi and Naruto will ever best of pals like Bee and Hachibi... The Kyuubi is a personafication of malice/evil/hatred anyways.


----------



## takL (Jul 28, 2011)




----------



## auem (Jul 28, 2011)

takL said:


> the crow may have 3 legs...
> 
> and the power may well give naruto
> 'Izana*mi*'.
> it has to come out eventually as its significant other has been there for a while already.


hey takL,elaborate the 3 leg thing please...


----------



## Fuujin (Jul 28, 2011)

It looks to be an Amaterasu defense since Itachi's left eye activated after the right and only then did the crow come out.


----------



## takL (Jul 28, 2011)

auem said:


> hey takL,elaborate the 3 leg thing please...



im lazy that i again borrow this from japan football assosiation.

"JFA Symbols

*The three-legged crow holding a ball is called "Yatagarasu" and represents the god of day, namely, the sun, cited from a classical book of old China.*


*It is believed that the Yatagarasu provided Emperor Jimmu and his army with directions on his expedition to the East and so there is a familiarity with the bird in Japan.*
The yellow and blue colors of the flag represent fair play and youth, respectively, thereby suggesting Japan Football Association's spirit of fairness backed by the vigorous power of youth."

it's also a symbol of japan's militally intelligence.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 28, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Why? It's not like Naruto needs it. Well, it might come in handy against Sasuke and Madara, but wouldn't it be better to see Naruto beat them with his own power? Also, I doubt that Naruto's eyes are capable of using Sharingan chakra directly, let alone Mangekyou Sharingan chakra.



If it is a permanent power up it is Naruto's own power regardless if it was given by Itachi or not. Before this chapter I thought it would be a 1 time use only to be used against either Sasuke or Madara and then vanish, however seeing that Itachi was very clear that the crow was to be used at the final battles and he is still using it now even saying like "lets see what happens" like saying "so I have a chance to test if it does what it should do" it appear to be a permanent power up.

My guess is that as according to Madara Senju plus Uchiha power = RS. Naruto already has Senju power he needs Uchiha and Itachi said he gave him a part of his power. So maybe when the crow activates when Naruto is in RM he will transform temporarily into a RS.


----------



## 4ghost (Jul 28, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Then what is the point of the crow? That's not a sign of being trapped in genjutsu, it's something that was actually placed in Naruto which we've been waiting to see for three years(!) now.
> 
> Also, Naruto knows better than to keep looking at Itachi's eyes once he activated the Mangekyou Sharingan. He warned Bee as much. He probably looked away as soon as the Amaterasu eye turned on, before the Tsukiyomi eye could activate and trap him. But it was too late to stop the crow from being activated.



Perhaps that really is the crow that Itachi placed into Naruto.  I just have a feeling that even with Itachi here the truth behind that crow and the power he left behind for Naruto won't be revealed until it is used for the intended target Sasuke.

Why couldn't the crow be as sign of being trapped in a genjutsu? Itachi's genjutsu has the ability to make whatever illusion into that person's reallity. Some of the more effective genjutsu are when the opponent doesn't even realize they are in one.


----------



## Yami_no_Princess (Jul 28, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I made a thread about this...
> 
> The crow was real. The whole Murder of crows was real.
> The thing is, One crow activated his sharingan, used it on naruto asked him some preliminary questions, and dove into his mouth.
> ...



Oh, ok, been a really long time since I read that, I could have sworn he was still in the genjutsu when Itachi shoved the crow down his throat. In the anime it seemed he was still in the genjutsu.


----------



## Twixta (Jul 28, 2011)

The Crow is the new final villain  !


----------



## Marsala (Jul 28, 2011)

Yami_no_Princess said:


> Oh, ok, been a really long time since I read that, I could have sworn he was still in the genjutsu when Itachi shoved the crow down his throat. In the anime it seemed he was still in the genjutsu.



Naruto was still in the genjutsu, but that doesn't mean that the crow wasn't a real crow that was present in the genjutsu and in reality.


----------



## jdbzkh (Jul 28, 2011)

It's been tossed around but could be results of Naruto's new form. Itachi did not expect Naruto to grow this strong and it could be a side effect to his chakra.


----------



## Addy (Jul 28, 2011)

it's sunglasses against tsukyomui and sun lotion against ameterasu


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

Twixta said:


> The Crow is the new final villain  !



That would be lol, I know your joking but go me thinking.

If the crow that was given to Naruto a gen-jutsu crow not a real one then its inton in the shape and form of a crow with a Sharingan that already a spiritual based doujutsu, combined with Kyuubi yang chakra it the crow should become real. I could so see it fly off somewhere find some poor sap possess him(lol). And after this war is over and Madara is defeated and stuff, we see the crow kaw like the hawk did during sasuke cry scene lol.

only take the underlines seriously.


----------



## Yachiru (Jul 29, 2011)

Okay, here are my two cents on this. 

1) The crow changed drastically. Even though it was a real crow, it's still Inton-based. So how did it grow? It fed on Kyuubi's Youton-based chakra, making the crow an Onmyouton-based crow. 
2) Last time we saw the crow, it clearly had a three-tomoe Sharingan. But looking at it now, it has a MS with a fourfold symmetry. 

Seems that Marsala's EMS theory is really on something ._.


----------



## takL (Jul 29, 2011)

arent all sharingans based on 3 tomoes?
in 陰陽/yin-yang theory odd numbers are supposed to be yang(陽myo)


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 29, 2011)

Yachiru said:


> Okay, here are my two cents on this.
> 
> 1) The crow changed drastically. Even though it was a real crow, it's still Inton-based. So how did it grow? It fed on Kyuubi's Youton-based chakra, making the crow an Onmyouton-based crow.
> 2) Last time we saw the crow, it clearly had a three-tomoe Sharingan. But looking at it now, it has a MS with a fourfold symmetry.
> ...



Marsala's EMS theory is completely silly. The crow can't be used for any function that doesn't make sense when it's original purpose is examined. The crow there for can't free Itachi from Kabuto's will, revive him, give him ems, ext.

1) For all we know the crow was always supposed to change or grow with Naruto in some form. We can't tell if anything regarding the crow's development has done anything, but gone according to plan outside of activating against Itachi instead of Sasuke.

2) The crow suddenly having a Mangekyou Sharingan may simply be caused by the fact that for the first time we've seen the jutsu activate. Mangekyou Sharingan itself may of developed in some form while the crow was sealed within Naruto.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 29, 2011)

jgalt7 said:


> Having said that, now look back at the image of Rikudo and KM Naruto.  It is obvious that there is a similarity, especially the hair/horn features plus the tomoe like features on the chest area.  However, Naruto looks like a naked Rikudo and Rikudo himself has a cloak.......
> 
> As it was mentioned by Yamato, the RM Naruto chakra is so full of life energy/yang.  Genjutsu is yin, and we are reminded of this chakra concept last chapter by one of the edo kages.  Kishi tends to dwell on concepts when he is in a certain thought pattern writing arcs, such as the training arc of Naruto when learning rasen-shuriken.  Kishi was very into nature manipulation/nature even went as far as making one of the akatsuki adept in all five and giving sasuke the ability to manipulate lightning.  He is obviously into yin/yang chakra as of late.
> 
> ...



Naruto getting a crow feather cloak would be awesome. It would be a short-armed, open cloak with the same cut as Naruto's SM cloak. It's far better than my idea of Naruto getting that strange four-sided sharingan motive on his chakra body.



Marsala said:


> The point of Itachi being impressed by Naruto's growth at the start of the chapter is that Itachi now realizes that Naruto won't need his power to deal with Sasuke, so it might as well be used here to solve the current crisis.
> 
> As for the crow being reusable, well, anything's possible at this point. The crow might deep throat itself back into Naruto once its work is done here. Itachi could give Naruto another one. Hell, it could have built a nest and so there could be still more crows down there.
> 
> But at the moment, the crow is leaving Naruto's body so it is already not his power anymore.



I think it would be more accurate to say that the crow is not his power yet. Until now it may have stored itself within Naruto, but it sure wasn't part of his power.
It's like with Gerotora, for Naruto to actually get the key the frog had to be outside. He's just stored inside, for Naruto to access his power he needs to come out. It could be the same with the crow.  I'm not saying the crow has some sort of seal inscribed, but that the actual transfer of whatever power Itachi intended for Naruto requires it to be outside. 



KazeYama said:


> This makes no sense. Serious wtf moment. I was thinking Naruto was actually improving and that we would see what hidden thing Itachi implanted in naruto. Then it turns out the crow...was just a crow. Naruto had a crow living in him for weeks or months jut chilling out. Also if the crow is somehow beneficial then how is Itachi activating it at all. He can talk freely but isn't Edo Tensei supposed to restrict him from only using aggressive and offensive jutsu? It wasn't ever really explained how edo tensei pick what jutsu they use at what time since they aren't supposed to have any control. Kabutomaru definitely didn't know about the crow. The whole thing is just another stupid ass plot no jutsu from Kishi.



It does make sense. The crow is just like Gerotora. It doesn't actually live within Naruto, it's within some sort of pocket dimension Naruto carries around with him. 

As for how Itachi is activating it I would assume that when Itachi put it inside Naruto he programmed orders in it to come out when he faced two MS eyes or when either Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu was about to be used on him.

Edo Tensei is very similar in a way. Kabuto doesn't control each move of his zombies, he has written a program which the zombies have to follow. Aside from the program the zombies are free to act as they wish, which is why many of the zombies have been telling the alliance how to fight them. Kabuto's program doesn't prohibit them from talking. It's the same with Itachi in this case. Itachi obviously knows about the power he put within Naruto and the program Kabuto put on him doesn't prevent him from using his MS, in fact it may actually demand it from him. So Itachi is just using that fact to unlock the crow within Naruto.


----------



## Yachiru (Jul 29, 2011)

Jikayaki said:


> Marsala's EMS theory is completely silly. The crow can't be used for any function that doesn't make sense when it's original purpose is examined. The crow there for can't free Itachi from Kabuto's will, revive him, give him ems, ext.
> 
> 1) For all we know the crow was always supposed to change or grow with Naruto in some form. We can't tell if anything regarding the crow's development has done anything, but gone according to plan outside of activating against Itachi instead of Sasuke.
> 
> 2) The crow suddenly having a Mangekyou Sharingan may simply be caused by the fact that for the first time we've seen the jutsu activate. Mangekyou Sharingan itself may of developed in some form while the crow was sealed within Naruto.



1) We have no indication whatsoever that the crow was meant to grow inside Naruto. Itachi merely shoved it down Naruto's throat at that point.
Also the metaphysics have been changed, so it's not what it originally was.

2) Wrong. If the MS was suddenly caused by Itachi activating it, the symmetry would've been exactly like Itachi's, see the Amaterasu failsafe.
The crow is a part of Naruto, so logically it developped MS by experiencing Naruto's pain and loss. Itachi obviously didn't anticipate this.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 29, 2011)

Yachiru said:


> 1) We have no indication whatsoever that the crow was meant to grow inside Naruto. Itachi merely shoved it down Naruto's throat at that point.
> Also the metaphysics have been changed, so it's not what it originally was.
> 
> 2) Wrong. If the MS was suddenly caused by Itachi activating it, the symmetry would've been exactly like Itachi's, see the Amaterasu failsafe.
> The crow is a part of Naruto, so logically it developped MS by experiencing Naruto's pain and loss. Itachi obviously didn't anticipate this.



1) There isn't any indication that how the crow developed while sealed within Naruto is against Itachi's original design either. All we have is speculation at this point, but it simply makes since that the crow was effected by Naruto in some way otherwise the crow's ms logically should look like Itachi's. In my opinion this was apart of the jutsu's design from the beginning.

2) I was merely stating a possibility regarding the crow's MS merely coming about as it activated in response to Itachi's MS. I'd agree logically without some sort of interaction between Naruto and the crow the MS should look like Itachi's. I'm of the opinion that the crow's MS developed in some form within Naruto as a result. One of the large differences of my own speculation regarding your own is that everything regarding the crow in my opinion has gone according to plan outside activating against Itachi instead of Sasuke.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

So what the generals view on the crows Nature when it was implanted? Was it a spiritual/Inton or was it a real crow?

If it was real then the explanation for the growth of the crow and change in the eyes could be the yang chakra Juicing up it form or body combined with the Pain Naruto felt because of his masters J-mans death and all the pain Naruto went through after that.

If its Inton/spiritual crow then that combined with the yang chakra created a yin-yang effect making the crow real. Reason for the MS is the same as above.

I am sure its one of those, I cant think of another reason that it could grow or have the MS, it looks like Itachi's but there are a couple differences. Cant be EMS since Naruto hasn't traded MS in any way.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 29, 2011)

As far as I see it, there really are only a few possibilities for the different MS design:
Because of Naruto's chakra
Because of the Kyuubi's chakra
Because the technique will involve shuriken in some manner
The last one seems kind of unlikely, and the other two definitely lend to the idea that the crow's power is something pretty special.


----------



## Addy (Jul 29, 2011)

maybe it's the fourth power? ameterasu, tsukyumi and susano'o are all uchiha only powers.

i don't mean izanagi since it needs senju and uchiha? i mean another uchiha only power that itachi may use.


----------



## Saru (Jul 29, 2011)

I think the crow will work more like a  (a device used to observe memories) rather than the somewhat popular horcrux theory. In fact, I think that the crow will actually allow Itachi to reappear in the Material world, as if he were acting beyond the grave. The crow was set to activate if and when when Naruto was attacked by someone of Itachi's own blood. Naruto was Itachi's intended backup plan for saving Sasuke, after all; I think he anticipated this outcome to some extent. Not exactly sure Itachi would do with this "second chance", so to speak.






The real issue with this theory is that Itachi is already standing before Naruto... So... What _would_ happen? It would make sense for Itachi to question it in this scenario.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 29, 2011)

Naruto must not gain sharingan...
Its so...not him. Minato would not be proud!


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> So what the generals view on the crows Nature when it was implanted? Was it a spiritual/Inton or was it a real crow?
> 
> If it was real then the explanation for the growth of the crow and change in the eyes could be the yang chakra Juicing up it form or body combined with the Pain Naruto felt because of his masters J-mans death and all the pain Naruto went through after that.
> 
> ...



wow, you just elaborated on something.  as madara explained, izanagi was based on a jutsu performed by rikudo to create life.

a perfect balance to an izanagi opponent.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 29, 2011)

If Naruto gets MS next chapters...

I'll die slowly.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto must not gain sharingan...
> Its so...not him. Minato would not be proud!





jaknblak said:


> If Naruto gets MS next chapters...
> 
> I'll die slowly.



Yes a lot of folks feel like you do about Naruto getting the Sharingan, I can see why. Not just because it doesn't feel like him,  It would be saying that If you want to become top uber tier ya need to become more like the Uchiha or that only Uchiha are capable of defeating Uchiha.

No worries though, it wont happen, Naruto is an Uzumaki, if he were to get the Sharingan and juice it up with Kyuubi's yang chakra, and yang chakra breaths life into form, it could mutate the eyes into something different. A new Doujutsu that's heavily yang based instead of yin based like the Uchiha.

Also the crow is leaving his body, making it less likely that he will get anything permanent like that from this.Though we have been waiting to see this crow for so long and Kishi knows how hyped we are for this it would be strange if he didn't get some power from this.

It would all depend on how Kishi plays this.​


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> Yes a lot of folks feel like you do about Naruto getting the Sharingan, I can see why. Not just because it doesn't feel like him,  It would be saying that If you want to become top uber tier ya need to become more like the Uchiha or that only Uchiha are capable of defeating Uchiha.
> 
> No worries though, it wont happen, Naruto is an Uzumaki, if he were to get the Sharingan and juice it up with Kyuubi's yang chakra, and yang chakra breaths life into form, it could mutate the eyes into something different. A new Doujutsu that's heavily yang based instead of yin based like the Uchiha.
> 
> ...



Naruto will get Rasengan , the Doujutsu of the elder Son of Rikodou


----------



## Perseverance (Jul 29, 2011)

Crows probably there to just protect him from Genjutsu or other MS attacks. 

He won't get MS.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> Crows probably there to just protect him from Genjutsu or other MS attacks.
> 
> He won't get MS.



Naruto has to get something though, the Crow is or was one of the most talked about stuff on the forum, at least 5 duplicate and repeat threads about it every week. Since kishi used it as a cliffhanger he also knows how anticipated this is. If all it does is stop MS this once  and then fly away and disperse after all this time it will be incredibly disappointing.​


----------



## son_michael (Jul 29, 2011)

judging by Itachi's words...the crow is something permanent. It will probably be automatic genjutsu defense for Naruto or defense from doujutsu altogether. Ha ha wouldn't that be fun? Sasuke gets hax eyes and they are completley useless against Naruto which forces him to fight Naruto with ninjutsu like back in the good old days of vote.


I wouldn't mind it. But yea...I think its just permanent genjutsu defense. Naruto still has to learn THAT jutsu before he takes on Sasuke anyway..so he don't need a crazy power up from the crow


plus...Itachi originally said" ive given you * some* of my power" So we shouldn't expect anything too big...unless that small amount was greatly inhanced by kyuubi's chakra.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

son_michael said:


> judging by Itachi's words...the crow is something permanent. It will probably be automatic genjutsu defense for Naruto or defense from doujutsu altogether. Ha ha wouldn't that be fun? Sasuke gets hax eyes and they are completley useless against Naruto which forces him to fight Naruto with ninjutsu like back in the good old days of vote.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind it. But yea...I think its just permanent genjutsu defense. Naruto still has to learn THAT jutsu before he takes on Sasuke anyway..so he don't need a crazy power up from the crow
> ...



What would a Gen-jutsu defense power look like though? will a crow come out of his mouth every time?


----------



## Marsala (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> What would a Gen-jutsu defense power look like though? will a crow come out of his mouth every time?



Yeah. If it were a genjutsu defense, one would expect that the crow would stay inside Naruto and turn his eyes to Sharingan. Leaving Naruto's body is an inefficient way to counter genjutsu.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Yeah. If it were a genjutsu defense, one would expect that the crow would stay inside Naruto and turn his eyes to Sharingan. Leaving Naruto's body is an inefficient way to counter genjutsu.



Just to clear it up, are on board with the Idea that its a gen-jutsu defense or are you saying that because crow is leaving the body its not. That where I am at, since its leaving the body.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 29, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> If Naruto gets MS next chapters...
> 
> I'll die slowly.



He could get the Rinnegan, which is technically not the sharingan as you see Sneju plus Uchiha equals Rikudou is not impossible. Though if he does of course it wont be a permanent Rinnegan, more like an extrmelly dangerous power up which will last for like 5 minutes and will leave Naruto to the point of fainting immediatly after using it and he may be forced to wait for 1 week or so before using it, or satisfy ridiculous requirements every time he use it.

Seeing as Nagato, an Uzumaki and Rinnegan user is conveniently there it is not so impossible. Though dont worry, if Naruto gets the Rinnegan he will only use it to enhance his clones and Rasengans, he wont be using Shinra Tenseis. Most likely if it is the Rinnegan it will be so ridiculously tolling, hard to activate and gimped (expect some "Everytime Naruto make a clone or use a major power the Rinnegan 5 minutes will decrease") or some shit that he most likely wont use it again until the Sasuke fight as a desperation tactic, and he wont be able to use it without any limitation until the Juubi fight, basically if this happen I expect Naruto to need to befriend the Kyuubi and combine SM with RM to be able to remove the limitations of the power up and wield it properly.


----------



## Jeefus (Jul 29, 2011)

I think it'll do like last time and disappear until Naruto fights Sasuke.

On a side note, I can see a lot of funny editting done with that panel.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

Jeefus said:


> I think it'll do like last time and disappear until Naruto fights Sasuke.
> 
> On a side note, I can see a lot of funny editting done with that panel.



Feartear has thread on that open right now.



Orochibuto said:


> He could get the Rinnegan, which is technically not the sharingan as you see Sneju plus Uchiha equals Rikudou is not impossible. Though if he does of course it wont be a permanent Rinnegan, more like an extrmelly dangerous power up which will last for like 5 minutes and will leave Naruto to the point of fainting immediatly after using it and he may be forced to wait for 1 week or so before using it, or satisfy ridiculous requirements every time he use it.
> 
> Seeing as Nagato, an Uzumaki and Rinnegan user is conveniently there it is not so impossible. Though dont worry, if Naruto gets the Rinnegan he will only use it to enhance his clones and Rasengans, he wont be using Shinra Tenseis. Most likely if it is the Rinnegan it will be so ridiculously tolling, hard to activate and gimped (expect some "Everytime Naruto make a clone or use a major power the Rinnegan 5 minutes will decrease") or some shit that he most likely wont use it again until the Sasuke fight as a desperation tactic, and he wont be able to use it without any limitation until the Juubi fight, basically if this happen I expect Naruto to need to befriend the Kyuubi and combine SM with RM to be able to remove the limitations of the power up and wield it properly.



I would dislike it Naruto ended up with Sharingan or Rinnengan. I just dont see him as a copy movements use all elements kind of guy. If it happens like you said then it doesn't even seem worth it. If Naruto does end up with a Doujutsu I want it to be a Mutated version that can be called truly different from the rest and a different color.


----------



## falsepod (Jul 29, 2011)

^ It would be cool to see different elemental versions of the Rasengan though


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

falsepod said:


> ^ It would be cool to see different elemental versions of the Rasengan though



That would be haxx, and yes fun to see. But considering that Naruto has no other wind jutsu that isn't a rasengan variation it would not happen.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> Feartear has thread on that open right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I would dislike it Naruto ended up with Sharingan or Rinnengan. I just dont see him as a copy movements use all elements kind of guy. If it happens like you said then it doesn't even seem worth it. If Naruto does end up with a Doujutsu I want it to be a Mutated version that can be called truly different from the rest and a different color.



You are thinking it too far. In the same post you quoted me I basically said that if Naruto gets Rinnegan he wont be using Shinra Tensei, copy ninjustu or anything. The Rinnegan will most likely simply amp his current set of abilities to RS level, basically it will just be an excuse to let Naruto's rasengans harm the Kyuubi and a reason why Naruto wasnt killed upon receiving a moon busting beam.

If he gets the Rinnegan, it may not even manifes in the eyes, he may get the Senju equivalent of Rinnegan in the body or the equivalent. Even if it does I expect him only to be seen 3 times so its really irrelevant and not something it should bother you:

1) As a foreshadowing, in which Naruto temporarily goes RS seals Itachi and Nagato and then faints, he is immediatly taken to  nursery leaving Bee alone and ready for being captured. Naruto then vows to never resort to this power again.

2) Against Sasuke as a desesperation tactic because either he cant beat him or because he can but cant find a way to do it without killing him so he activates the technique in hopes that the massive power gap allow him to defeat Sasuke without putting too much power in the attacks and just faint him. He wins but again because of chakra draining he faints and Madara gets him to complete the Juubi.

3) At the end of the battle, when he combines SM and RM, the massive chakra allows him to use the technique for extended periods of time and without turning him into a chakra cripple.

After that most likely we wont see it again.


----------



## Raging Bird (Jul 29, 2011)

The crow will probably be a counter to the EMS kyuubi controlling powers, that's playing it safe.

It's tricky to think about something the crow would do that would benefit Naruto, specially since Itachi did not expect Naruto to master the kyuubi.


As for a Doujutsu on naruto? I want the Elder brothers swirly eyes.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> Naruto has to get something though, the Crow is or was one of the most talked about stuff on the forum, at least 5 duplicate and repeat threads about it every week. Since kishi used it as a cliffhanger he also knows how anticipated this is. If all it does is stop MS this once  and then fly away and disperse after all this time it will be incredibly disappointing.​




*Spoiler*: __ 



Right, and would be completely anti-climatic.
If it only works once, then itachi, whom now has a regenerating mangekyou... CAN USE MORE. As much as he wants, until naruto either exorcises his soul, or seals him.

And since sasuke being evil is what keeps him grounded, that would be impossible. His worries will persist, and if he kills naruto, then how does that solve his worries? Even then, kabuto could simply erase his mind and have no chance of absolution working.


If it is a contracted crow, with mangekyou, then itachi's chakra would eventually run out from that small amount given, and the crow would lose the ability to use mangekyou. After all, it's body is too small to produce enough chakra to maintain it. And then It makes you wander how one can bestow your kekkei genkai on kuchiyose familiars.

If it is a Crow homunculi (In which I mean the crows are created from the DNA of the summoner, rather than independent magical animals, like the frogs)
Then, it makes FAR more sense as to how itachi was able to use them as karasu bunshin, give them sharingan, and fuse with them, seeing as how orochimaru was able to fuse with his daija homunculi.

more on that idea

*Spoiler*: __ 



One might even wander if itachi had some spell cast on him, similar to orochimaru's shirohebi no chikara. Orochimaru was able to summon snakes, and literally make them from his flesh as well, so one could speculate that ALL Daija come from Fission techniques, and if Itachi's crows were born from the same style of Fission.
(Very cool imagining itachi being able to grow crows from a single cell being infused with chakra and rapidly growing into a homunculi. Provokes the same image as Yamato with his mokuton, growing trees from his skin.)




Nevertheless, If it IS a crow homunculi that WON'T fuse it's DNA and eyes with naruto, then it would be prone to attack.
It is EASY to target, incapable of using jutsu, but only douryouku, and does not have enough chakra to actually actively counter a human.

Sasuke could murder the thing with the quickness, and so could madara. One use of amaterasu, and the crow dies. After all, it cannot actively use enton.

And, if it doesn't fly in and out of naruto's mouth (slower than a ninja could act), then it would have to perch itself on naruto's shoulder, so that he could wake naruto from genjutsu. Once again, a very inefficient way of doing things.
Also, if this is anything like the amphibian sage technique, it might not work. It COULD and would theoretically, but it might not.



If it is a bunshin, then it will eventually disperse, and like said before, would have itachi's stigma.






So here is MY theory.
1. Itachi can use ninjutsu to create Crow Homonculi.
They are seperate creatures, but linked through itachi's chakra, born from his flesh, and have his sharingan as an inherited trait. Because they are in effect, pieces of him in the shape of crows, he can absorb them back, use them to store chakra, or fuse them into shapes of himself remotely.

They are quickly made familiars in the traditional sense.

2. Because it is a real crow but with it's own sharingan, and magical powers, it could sustain itself within naruto, even with itachi dying seperately, and it also had it's sharingan on the whole time.

3. The crow fused with naruto... Partially.
It somehow has the power to possess bodies and return back to a living cell, or moreso, a retroviral cell which changes the body of the victim into the crow.
I would say it is very similar to the ten no fuin in design. It in effect sealed itself inside naruto.

4. Since the crow was now apart of naruto's DNA, due to it's seal, It could live within him comfortably.

Unlike summons, homunculi turn back into the main body when not in use.
Orochimaru's Shirohebi go back into orochimaru, and Yamato can turn his trees back into his cells.
So, the crow was physically one with naruto.

5. It is now naruto's mangekyou AND Sharingan.

The crow was originally Itachi's homunculus, he forfeited part of his Genetic code, which is able to turn into a crow, and back into a human dna strand.
The crow invaded naruto's body, turned into a piece of viral code, and changed Naruto's DNA, in the same fashion that sasuke's was changed with the curse seal.
The base code remained the same, but chakra was eventually fed into this new part over time, so it could mature.

The crow's mangekyo won't turn off, BUT, the crow only represents the latent uchiha DNA within naruto. It was held inside of naruto without ever naturally manifesting because of the program itachi set on it.
Keeping what will become part of naruto's DNA after it dissolves apart from the main body would allow it to consume chakra FAR more rapidly than if it were naturally inserted into the body.

My guess is it was set to naturally activate if a mangekyou jutsu attacks naruto's main body.

Anyhow, the crow will eventually dissolve into pure genetic code, rather than retaining it's crow form, giving naruto access to his own incubated mangekyou.




son_michael said:


> judging by Itachi's words...the crow is something permanent. It will probably be automatic genjutsu defense for Naruto or defense from doujutsu altogether. Ha ha wouldn't that be fun? Sasuke gets hax eyes and they are completley useless against Naruto which forces him to fight Naruto with ninjutsu like back in the good old days of vote.


If it were so easy to nullify mangekyou douryouku, Itachi could have killed madara himself.

The only automatic doujutsu defense, as shown has been mangekyou sharingan. That is why... the crow has a mangekyou sharingan. The sharingan IS the defense against it.

It's not suddenly going to turn into some GREATER anti-uchiha benefit, because if they were so easy to make, there would be no opposition.
Itachi gave naruto a sharingan to incubate.
In a word, impregnation.

It went inside naruto with a regular sharingan for a few, and came out with a mangekyou, by incubating inside of such a high energy container as naruto.




> I wouldn't mind it. But yea...I think its just permanent genjutsu defense. Naruto still has to learn THAT jutsu before he takes on Sasuke anyway..so he don't need a crazy power up from the crow


In what other way is there a permanent genjutsu defense?
A seal? Sharingan see through it.
By perching itself on naruto's shoulder? It is slow, sasuke is fast.

I find making some other power to somehow "keep naruto's integrity", while being completely irrational, contradictory to logic, and downright strange as being the crazy powerup.

"I could have given you the power... But instead, how about a nice pet crow!"
Redic.



> plus...Itachi originally said" ive given you * some* of my power" So we shouldn't expect anything too big...unless that small amount was greatly inhanced by kyuubi's chakra.


Or naruto's own.
Kakashi opened his mangekyou by himself, with shitty chakra, and with it being foreign.

Naruto had the power sealed inside of him, has 4 times the chakra as normal, can make his own chakra MANY times more potent with sage mode, and then there happens to be kyuubi.

He had enough before kyuubi.


----------



## Summers (Jul 29, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. You said some very interesting stuff in there, and I haven't finished reading it yet since g2g. So for now, just to be sure what does Daija mean? And maybe Itachi was inspired by Oro to create his crow tech, reverse engineering using Sharingan analysis like what Sasuke does.


----------



## ITACHISHOULDHAVEWON (Jul 29, 2011)

Meh. You guys have crazy complex theories. I posted a simpler more plausible one a while back here  . 

The gist of it is a simple analysis of Naruto vs. Sasuke. They both have epic ninjutsu abilities (crazy rasengans and chidoris, fire style, wind style etc.) and good taijutsu (Sasuke is backed up by Sharingan/general skill, Naruto by SM). But Sasuke completely outclasses Naruto in genjutsu. Naruto has no genjusu or genjutsu defense. His only hope if genjutsued (or worse, tsukuyomied) is the Fox deciding to be nice and help him out the way the 8 tails helps Bee (if he even realizes he is genjutsued). IE. Naruto is fucked at the first use of genjutsu...but that makes for a rather anticlimactic shitty fight. So the plot solution is the Crow power Itachi gave Naruto. It will block/prevent Sasuke's genjutsu, forcing them to have an epic fight without illusion bullshit.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 29, 2011)

summers said:


> Just to clear it up, are on board with the Idea that its a gen-jutsu defense or are you saying that because crow is leaving the body its not. That where I am at, since its leaving the body.



It could have been intended as a genjutsu defense against Sasuke, but by leaving Naruto's body now it is clearly doing something else entirely. Inside the body is the ideal place to help defend against genjutsu; the strongest genjutsu defenses, the tamed Hachibi and the Sharingan, are both located inside the user's body.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 29, 2011)

I love the theories in this thread though, I must admit.

Screw the fight, crowjob is the hot topic.


----------



## IceMateria (Jul 30, 2011)

Ok. I read through like all 12 pages of posts. Here are the theories I like and do not like and why.

*Don't Like*

Crow is one time use. Here's why:
That would just be a waste. Itachi would want Naruto to rely on his own strength, but try and give him an upper hand in bringing his poor little brother home. Wasting the main gift he gave to Naruto would be... stupid.

Crow will continue to crow job Naruto everytime a Magenkyou Sharingan baits him into genjutsu. Here's why:
The sheer stupidity of how that would look turns me away from that idea. Every single time is a tad too much. This, I think, kind of supports the genjutsu counter theory, but I really do not think that is the case here.

*Neutral*

Itachi will bring himself to life using Crow Izangi. Here's why:
Generally when someone is brought to life, it's a bad thing. Kishi really does not like bringing back dead people to benefit others. Minato and Kushina were technically imprints and not actually back to life. The main reason why I am neutral is because the plausibility of this happening is low in my opinion.

*Like*

Crow is genjutsu defense. Here's why:
It is Naruto's weakest point. By a lot. We see that he is terrible at genjutsu, and that foxxy don't wanna play. And every Uchiha/Sharingan fight has Genjutsu. It never fails. (I actually had a list of the times it happened on a thread.) So this would perfectly balance him against Sasuke. I just don't want to see a crow pop out of his mouth every time it hapens. Eww.

Naruto gets Mangekyou Sharingan. Here's why:
This is my favorite theory. Madara is a literal Rikodu short of a bijuu inside him. In order to balance this final fight against him, Naruto should be Rikodu too. Too much whining about how powerful Naruto would be with it. I mean, the kid is launching mini rasen-shurikens with his finger, so he can't get that much more broken. With the MS, Naruto would be complete as a sage like Nagato before him. Remember everyone, Nagato is an Uzumaki. So it's not too much of a stretch to hand Naruto similar tools.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 30, 2011)

IceMateria said:


> Itachi will bring himself to life using Crow Izangi. Here's why:
> Generally when someone is brought to life, it's a bad thing. Kishi really does not like bringing back dead people to benefit others. Minato and Kushina were technically imprints and not actually back to life. The main reason why I am neutral is because the plausibility of this happening is low in my opinion.


But it's actually been a good thing every time someone's been resurrected. There was Gaara and then everyone whom Nagato brought back.

Edo Tensei is different because it's a kind of cursed unlife. If Itachi revived fully, it would be karmic payback against Kabuto for violating the laws of nature so badly.



> Crow is genjutsu defense. Here's why:
> It is Naruto's weakest point. By a lot. We see that he is terrible at genjutsu, and that foxxy don't wanna play. And every Uchiha/Sharingan fight has Genjutsu. It never fails. (I actually had a list of the times it happened on a thread.) So this would perfectly balance him against Sasuke. I just don't want to see a crow pop out of his mouth every time it hapens. Eww.


The Kyuubi's heart is already swaying. It's bound to be helping Naruto by the time that he faces Sasuke, and Naruto doesn't need another genjutsu defense.




> Naruto gets Mangekyou Sharingan. Here's why:
> This is my favorite theory. Madara is a literal Rikodu short of a bijuu inside him. In order to balance this final fight against him, Naruto should be Rikodu too. Too much whining about how powerful Naruto would be with it. I mean, the kid is launching mini rasen-shurikens with his finger, so he can't get that much more broken. With the MS, Naruto would be complete as a sage like Nagato before him. Remember everyone, Nagato is an Uzumaki. So it's not too much of a stretch to hand Naruto similar tools.



Naruto would get Rinnegan, not MS. And it could still happen if some of Itachi's power is left over inside him (such as in the other Kage Bunshin).


----------



## Summers (Jul 30, 2011)

Problem with Naruto getting a gen-jutsu defensive from this is that it would say that the only way Naruto could beat the Uchiha is with the Uchiha gift of power. If Naruto gets something from this it has to be "his own". Meaning that in someway Naruto's own power effected, warped,mutated, altered it in someway. Besides Kyuubi will come around eventually. Its been foreshadowed.


----------



## IceMateria (Jul 30, 2011)

Marsala said:


> But it's actually been a good thing every time someone's been resurrected. There was Gaara and then everyone whom Nagato brought back.



Forgot about Garaa (Nagato's was more like a big reset button). So maybe it's a tad more plausible... Itchi does hold enough weight in the story to have significant impact if he was in control of himself.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 30, 2011)

summers said:


> Wow. You said some very interesting stuff in there, and I haven't finished reading it yet since g2g. So for now, just to be sure what does Daija mean? And maybe Itachi was inspired by Oro to create his crow tech, reverse engineering using Sharingan analysis like what Sasuke does.



Sorry, I took so long, summers.

Daija means "great/grandiose serpent".
Those are what the big constrictor/venomous hybrid snakes orochimaru and kabuto use, are called.

Much like kawazu and gama are two different ways to say frog.
Orochi and Daija are two different ways to say 'big snake'.
It is used so that orochimaru isn't using orochi summons (redundant as hell ).

As far as itachi being inspired, I wouldn't for a second say he wasn't. 
They met, and orochimaru's shirohebi no chikara (power of whitesnake) is pretty inspiring. He definitely could have.


So, only five days until we get a good answer to our questions.





I definitely think it would help naruto tremendously.
He has had a problem with learning for a while now. A sharingan would clear that right up.

Also, Kitsune based mangekyou techniques would KICK ASS.

Left eye:
*Inari* (shinto god of foxes. Name means "shitload of rice" )

Could be a technique that creates fox fire, A spiritual fire that does not burn, but instead eats stamina.


Right eye:
*Kuzunoha* (Mother of Abe no Seimei, the most famous onmyouji. she was a kitsune. Name means kudzu leaf)

Allows the eye to see the thoughts/feelings/intent of others by reading their spiritual energy.
(kuzunoha gave abe no seimei the ability to read minds)


*Tamamao-no-mae* (Kitsune seductress of japanese folklore, a trickster who seduced the emperor of japan. Seemingly perfect woman)

Genjutsu.
Creates an imaginary harem world in the mind of another. A world of infinite pleasure and ecstasy. It injects a chakra that mimics the effects of all euphoric hormones being released at once, and slowly turns up the hormones for depression when actions are taken to escape or resist the douryouku.

Within the world, the victims will creates the ideal mate for them unconsciously.  


(oiroke TO THE MAX )





And they say the mangekyou doesn't suit naruto.
Even with itachi's abilities, Imagine this

Susano'o: Sennin kitsune (thousand year kitsune)
Instead of being one of the regular susano'o, naruto makes a miniature kyuubi.
When in Chakra mode, it becomes a fully spiritual manifestation.



Mangekyou ROCKS for naruto.


----------



## Summers (Jul 30, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> If it is a contracted crow, with mangekyou, then itachi's chakra would eventually run out from that small amount given, and the crow would lose the ability to use mangekyou. After all, it's body is too small to produce enough chakra to maintain it. And then It makes you wander how one can bestow your kekkei genkai on kuchiyose familiars.


I think it could do what Kyuubi does and feed of Naruto's chakra or the kyuubi's.I also wonder where they are getting these contracts? What do the animals get out of this abuse.


dark messiah verdandi said:


> If it is a Crow homunculi (In which I mean the crows are created from the DNA of the summoner, rather than independent magical animals, like the frogs)
> Then, it makes FAR more sense as to how itachi was able to use them as karasu bunshin, give them sharingan, and fuse with them, seeing as how orochimaru was able to fuse with his daija homunculi.


Its pretty interesting that so far the only Characters who use animals that way is Itachi and Orochimiru, can you think of any others? I think this would be a very advanced youton Jutsu that I hope is explored more.


dark messiah verdandi said:


> more on that idea
> One might even wander if itachi had some spell cast on him, similar to orochimaru's shirohebi no chikara. Orochimaru was able to summon snakes, and literally make them from his flesh as well, so one could speculate that ALL Daija come from Fission techniques, and if Itachi's crows were born from the same style of Fission.
> (Very cool imagining itachi being able to grow crows from a single cell being infused with chakra and rapidly growing into a homunculi. Provokes the same image as Yamato with his mokuton, growing trees from his skin.)


There is definatly precedent for this, I cant imagine it being explained like this in the manga, maybe Databook, so we would see it instead. After Itachi looses his cloak we may get to see the crow coming as confirmation. Also Pain put a Jutsu on his summon, giving it his eyes and The ability to multiply when a condition is met. I dont think Itachi is secretly I giant crow though, that would be weird.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Nevertheless, If it IS a crow homunculi that WON'T fuse it's DNA and eyes with naruto, then it would be prone to attack.
> It is EASY to target, incapable of using jutsu, but only douryouku, and does not have enough chakra to actually actively counter a human.
> 
> Sasuke could murder the thing with the quickness, and so could madara. One use of amaterasu, and the crow dies. After all, it cannot actively use enton.
> ...


It would be very in character for Naruto to just stop it from flying out next chapter and swallow it and yell at Itachi about what it is.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> So here is MY theory.
> 1. Itachi can use ninjutsu to create Crow Homonculi.
> They are seperate creatures, but linked through itachi's chakra, born from his flesh, and have his sharingan as an inherited trait. Because they are in effect, pieces of him in the shape of crows, he can absorb them back, use them to store chakra, or fuse them into shapes of himself remotely.
> 
> ...


Is this all part one theory or 5 different ones.
I am going to try respond to all the other stuff later after that is cleared up. We have a week. Plus that horrible upcoming break to talk about this stuff. I generally agree with everything your theory, I saw generally because I still haven't finished taking it in.


----------



## Addy (Jul 30, 2011)

it's the sealing sword to seal itachi and nagato


----------



## Summers (Jul 31, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I definitely think it would help naruto tremendously.
> He has had a problem with learning for a while now. A sharingan would clear that right up.
> 
> Also, Kitsune based mangekyou techniques would KICK ASS.
> ...



I like the way you think. 

One thing I have been warming up to is eye base sealing Jutsu. for example imagine a contract seal appearing on somebody just by looking at them. While its true Naruto has problems learning(lol) and Sharingan would help, what some have reservation for is how it fits his personality. Seeing Naruto dodging stuff while seeing an outline of their next moves feels weird to some, If it was using his sensory abilities then it would be OK but knowing that its because of Uchiha power would upset some. Same with every other Sharingan ability. Some of those would be redundant because of his own sensory skills that if developed and trained should be able to do some of what Sharingan does, maybe even better.​
Again I will comment on the rest later.


----------



## chakra-burned (Jul 31, 2011)

Addy said:


> it's the sealing sword to seal itachi and nagato



I know you're trolling but I think you're right


----------



## Adagio (Jul 31, 2011)

The idea that it might be some sort of mechanism devised by Itachi to evoke a Rinnegan in Naruto is indeed appealing.. but that would mean that Itachi knew about Madara's secret, how he obtained immortality through gaining Hashirama's DNA. 

Madara had said that he still managed to keep a few secrets from Itachi, so that doesn't really make much sense to me. 

The fact that Itachi says "Lets see what happens" makes me think that even he is not fully aware of what might happen. He might have planted the crow with the sole intent of feeding Naruto some raw power in the form of a crow as to pose some kind of defense against Sasuke. I am still going strong on that theory, especially after what we saw with Minato's and Kushina's chakra forms within Naruto's seal. 

However, now that Itachi witnessed what Naruto managed to achieve via his Kyuubi training, it could mean that he is on some kind of hunch and simply wants to see what happened to the crow that he planted in Naruto so long ago.

If it does end up evoking some kind of Rinnegan reaction within Naruto, I think it will be a one-time thing. True Rinnegan/Rikkudou Sennin ancestry is achieved through blood/physical DNA as shown by Madara harvesting Hashirama's DNA, and a genjutsu crow is not going to to do the same thing. Perhaps what Itachi did will ultimately result in a temporary Rinnegan-esque power of sorts, which will run out once Itachi's chakra crow runs out, the same way that Minato and Kushina's "essences" faded away within Naruto's seal.


----------



## cloudsymph (Jul 31, 2011)

defense against mangekyou.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 31, 2011)

IceMateria said:


> Naruto gets Mangekyou Sharingan. Here's why:
> This is my favorite theory. Madara is a literal Rikodu short of a bijuu inside him. In order to balance this final fight against him, Naruto should be Rikodu too. Too much whining about how powerful Naruto would be with it. I mean, the kid is launching mini rasen-shurikens with his finger, so he can't get that much more broken. With the MS, Naruto would be complete as a sage like Nagato before him. Remember everyone, Nagato is an Uzumaki. So it's not too much of a stretch to hand Naruto similar tools.



Naruto would get Rinnegan, not MS. Though as people have already pointed out it could still happen even if it is not the intended effect of the crow as Itachi may not know that Uchiha and Senju makes Rikudou. At the end of the manga the crow may turn Naruto into RS as a side effect even if the intention of the crow is something completely different.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 31, 2011)

Naruto will not get a Dojutsu. It will go to show that the younger son has surpassed his father in both mind and body


----------



## Addy (Jul 31, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> I know you're trolling but I think you're right



trolling? what gives you that idea?


----------



## Yachiru (Jul 31, 2011)

Giving Naruto the MS/Rinnegan would ruin *everything* and damage the plot immensely. For all we know, Naruto represents the *younger son*. Rinnegan/MS is the *elder's* weapon.
Plus, it's not Naruto's style to fight with a doujutsu. Big no-no.

Being a defense against the MS was the most likely original purpose of the crow. But since it was most likely a one-time defense like Amaterasu, it would be nulled now since that was meant for Sasuke. So that's not the case either.

Shikigami are spiritual beings. "Spirit" in Japanese mythology is a synonym for the Yin element (Inton). Crows in Japanese mythology also represent the Yin element and have various Yin abilities: Karasu Tengu read peoples' minds, Yatagarasu warned Emperor Jimmu through a dream.. Crows are said to be the sun guardians also (Naruto's two suns, his mum and dad and Sasuke, Itachi's sun). 

If anything, the crow will aid Itachi due to its MS.


----------



## takL (Jul 31, 2011)

Shadow_fox said:


> Is it just me, or does that crow look like it grew? I mean when it was first see, it's whole body fit in Naruto's mouth, now only his head is as big as Naruto's mouth.
> 
> Also they eye might be an effect of Kyuubi's chakra.



its a raven than a crow.


----------



## MS81 (Jul 31, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Naruto would get Rinnegan, not MS. Though as people have already pointed out it could still happen even if it is not the intended effect of the crow as Itachi may not know that Uchiha and Senju makes Rikudou. At the end of the manga the crow may turn Naruto into RS as a side effect even if the intention of the crow is something completely different.



I'm leaning more towards swirligan, not as strong as Rennigan but stronger than MS.


----------



## takL (Jul 31, 2011)

i think he may have eyes like those of rikudo sage
then that will be the real rs mode.
but in that case shouldnt sasuke get his rinnegan as well? as he has to be the rival/counterpart of naruto.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 31, 2011)

takL said:


> i think he may have eyes like those of rikudo sage
> then that will be the real rs mode.
> but in that case shouldnt sasuke get his rinnegan as well? as he has to the rival/counterpart of naruto.



No, if he gets the other half some bullshit will happen that will prevent Naruto from using it against Sasuke in their battle, his complete RS form will be used properly either at the Juubi Madara fight or as a desperation tactic in the last minutes of Sasuke fight, so it wont affect Sasuke fight. Sasuke fight will be brother vs brother the ridiculous feud. Madara vs Naruto will be the ultimate good vs the ultimate evil.


----------



## Tomasoares (Jul 31, 2011)

You guys forgot the most simple but still plausible theory:

It's just a Itachi's genjutsu.


----------



## MS81 (Jul 31, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> No, if he gets the other half some bullshit will happen that will prevent Naruto from using it against Sasuke in their battle, his complete RS form will be used properly either at the Juubi Madara fight or as a desperation tactic in the last minutes of Sasuke fight, so it wont affect Sasuke fight. Sasuke fight will be brother vs brother the ridiculous feud. Madara vs Naruto will be the ultimate good vs the ultimate evil.



yessss...... reps!!!


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 31, 2011)

Yachiru said:


> Giving Naruto the MS/Rinnegan would ruin *everything* and damage the plot immensely. For all we know, Naruto represents the *younger son*. Rinnegan/MS is the *elder's* weapon.
> Plus, it's not Naruto's style to fight with a doujutsu. Big no-no.



Then how do you expect Naruto to beat Juubi Madara which will be as strong as RS?.

I think people here are so against the idea of a doujutsu because they imagine Naruto shitting Shinra Tenseis out of his ass and pulling jutsus that would totally contrast with his style. If we have learned anything is that Naruto with every power he gets use it to expand his current set of jutsus that have proven to work for him not go for new jutsus that may or may not be as reliable.

If he gets the Rinnegan dont expect his eyes to be changed permanently, more than a doujutsu it will most likely be a technique that means if his eyes changes to Rinnegan it will be a 30 minutes at most transformation which will be extremelly tolling on chakra, leave Naruto fainted after it runs off and having ridiculous activation requirements like having to wait again until Naruto builds enough chakra to make the crow open the eyes once more which might take days if not weeks.

If he does then the mode will just make his attacks massively more powerful, for example his Bijuu Bomb rather than being Kyuubi level would be Juubi level, his Rasengans and speed would allow him to fight even with RS if still lived, basically rather than an actual power the doujutsu power up will most likely just be an excuse to why he wasnt made dust by a moon busting Bijuu bomb of Madara, why his attacks are hurting at all a RS level adversary and why he can tank attacks that would defeat anyone else.

Hell the "doujutsu" may even manifest in a different way than the eyes amping him to RS level yet making Naruto be still only the body, as many have pointed out simply amp his younger brother level to RS level while still being younger brother. For example rather than his eyes changing the Uzumaki swirls in the seal may turn into concentric circles with tomoes.

Basically what I am just saying is, even if the crow or whatever power up allow Naruto to get RS level wont alter his fighting style at all. The only difference will be that relative fodders like Kakashi and Gai to unamed fodder level, and relative adversaries to him like Raikage and even Minato will go to relative fodder level. The only thing that will happen is that the gap between top tiers and everyone else will be more ridiculous.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 31, 2011)

I have the following theories on the crow...........

1) Perhaps its a form of Onmiyoton release powered by Uzumaki/Senju chakra like Izanagi or Rikudou's power of creation . 


2) The crow is a genjutsu deffence, i am basing this on the legend of the Yatagarasu crow that has led the japanese emperor Jimu(one of Amaterasu's descendants) on his journey to another country. The journey can be interpreted as crossing over from the illusion to reality .

3) The crow is a space/time bending power that can be used by someone who has Senju/Uzumaki + Uchiha powers .


----------

