# Orochimaru vs Itachi and EMS Sasuke



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 31, 2013)

Location: Konoha

Distance: 25 meters

State of mind: IC

Knowledge: Manga

Orochimaru has the four Hokages for Edo Tensei


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2013)

Itachi clone feints past the Edo Hokage, grabs Orochimaru, and uses Genjutsu to force him to end the Edo Tensei.

Then he kicks the piss out of Oro and calls it a day. Sasuke...I don't know...watches.

Nothing has changed.


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## Pirao (Jan 31, 2013)

If Orochimaru can control them like Kabuto did, he rapes.


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## Alita (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi clone feints past the Edo Hokage, grabs Orochimaru, and uses Genjutsu to force him to end the Edo Tensei.
> 
> Then he kicks the piss out of Oro and calls it a day. Sasuke...I don't know...watches.
> 
> Nothing has changed.


Yeah cause obviously the some of strongest kages(And characters.) in the series are going to fall for a simple feint from itachi. And are just going to stand around while itachi undoes edo tensei without trying to stop him and orochimaru ain't gonna do anything to stop him. 

You gotta lay off the itachi wank niku. There are plentty of other FAR more quality characters in the series you can glorify over him.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> Yeah cause obviously the some of strongest kages(And characters.) in the series are going to fall for a simple feint from itachi. And are just going to stand around while itachi undoes edo tensei without trying to stop him and orochimaru ain't gonna do anything to stop him.
> 
> You gotta lay off the itachi wank niku. There are plentty of other FAR more quality characters in the series you can glorify over him.



?

It's not even wank.

Hiruzen by himself was able to pull off Shiki Fujin against two of these Edo Tensei AND Orochimaru himself simultaneously...with his vision blacked-out.

Itachi's much faster, and it wouldn't take more than a well-timed swap with a clone to distract the zombies long enough to get to Orochimaru and end the Jutsu.

Or, knowing how well Orochimaru controls them anyway, Itachi could probably just take them on directly, seal them all, and still wipe the floor with Oro.


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## ImSerious (Jan 31, 2013)

Explain to me how Edo Minato doesnt solo this.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Explain to me how Edo Minato doesnt solo this.



Because it's Minato with Orochimaru's intelligence, reaction time, and skill.

Or, perhaps more accurately, Orochimaru with Minato's Jutsu in another body he's not accustomed to using.


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## ImSerious (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Because it's Minato with Orochimaru's intelligence, reaction time, and skill.
> 
> Or, perhaps more accurately, Orochimaru with Minato's Jutsu in another body he's not accustomed to using.



Not if Oro lets Minato fight freely.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Not if Oro lets Minato fight freely.



I don't think Orochimaru would want to let him do that, considering who he'd be more likely to turn on.


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## ImSerious (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't think Orochimaru would want to let him do that, considering who he'd be more likely to turn on.



Cant he let Minato keep his personality while forcing him to fight them? Like Kabuto did to Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Jan 31, 2013)

Edo Forms are not significantly more powerful than their living selves when left free to fight. We have yet to see an Edo Tensei come back and be 10X better, they all fight IC and non of them have over abused their stamina. Edo Minato is just Minato with Regen, and in the case of a long fight:unlimited chakra(which is the only time that factor even matters, as once again we have yet to see an Edo spam their trumps, or abuse their chakra.)

This match all depends on if the Hokages are sealed or not, if not EMS Sasuke hits them all with Ama Shurikens, Itachi blitzes with Totsuka on the Kages /Oro, and or just goes for Oro with Tsukuyomi.

If the Kages are allowed to roam free Team Uchiha puts up a decent fight,(and actually has a slight chance at winning pending on if Sasuke can allow room for Itachi to reach Oro, but that is slight) until Itachi runs out of juice, and then they die.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Cant he let Minato keep his personality while forcing him to fight them? Like Kabuto did to Itachi.



If Orochimaru actually has that type of seal, then Minato can still shout out warnings of his attacks before he uses them the way the other zombies were doing. He also doesn't necessarily have to attack unless Orochimaru compells him to with a hand-sign; otherwise, he's free to stand around and chat or let attacks hit him like Nagato did.

So no matter what, he's not gonna be able to fight with his full power unless he willfully decides to help Orochimaru out. But since the state of mind is in-character...that's not gonna happen.


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## richard lewis (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Orochimaru actually has that type of seal, then Minato can still shout out warnings of his attacks before he uses them the way the other zombies were doing. He also doesn't necessarily have to attack unless Orochimaru compells him to with a hand-sign; otherwise, he's free to stand around and chat or let attacks hit him like Nagato did.
> 
> So no matter what, he's not gonna be able to fight with his full power unless he willfully decides to help Orochimaru out. But since the state of mind is in-character...that's not gonna happen.



This is true, but still all 4 kages I think would be too much for them to handle and still take Oro out. by hype hashi could potentially solo them, throw in the other 3 and sasuke isn't going to be able to do much. Itachi will have to babysit sauce like he did with kabuto except this time he dealing with 5 opponents instead of 1 and atleast 2 of the kages "minato and hashi" if not all 4 are stronger than kabuto was. I still think we need to get more feats from both the kages themselves and from how well oro can utilize edo tensai b4 we can say for sure who wins.


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## xigloox (Jan 31, 2013)

rapestomp orochimaru wins.

Leech all creation out of sight, hide behind a few buildings. Edo hokage spank the Uchiha. Do I need to go into detail how the 4 hokage are superior to Sasuke and Itachi in every way?


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## Orochimaru800 (Jan 31, 2013)

stupid thread. With all 4 kages(including minato) present and without restrictions, orochimaru doesn't need to fight. He just has to sit back and watch.

i normally dont agree with XIGLOOX, but he/she is right.


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## Shinryu (Jan 31, 2013)

Edo Minato blitzes the unholy fuck out of them or just teleports rasengans in their heads


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## Rocky (Jan 31, 2013)

xigloox said:


> Do I need to go into detail how the 4 hokage are superior to Sasuke and Itachi in every way?



Normally, yes they would be.

However, this is not Hashirama the landscape devastator, or Minato the Kyuubi slayer. These are the midless zombies an old, decaying Hiruzen was able to take down without his vision, along with Orochimaru's arms.


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## Doge (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ?
> 
> It's not even wank.



You're right, it's not.  It's just horrible reasoning.



Nikushimi said:


> Hiruzen by himself was able to pull off Shiki Fujin against two of these Edo Tensei AND Orochimaru himself simultaneously...with his vision blacked-out.



Against Part 1 Edo kages that literally showed next to no feats.  Madara has pretty much made it clear out of hype and copying Hashirama's own jutsus that Orochimaru is at a huge advantage now.  You really think that Hashi is just not going to be able to use those techs?  The Flower would end the battle right there.




Nikushimi said:


> Itachi's much faster, and it wouldn't take more than a well-timed swap with a clone to distract the zombies long enough to get to Orochimaru and end the Jutsu.



Minato scatters his kunais and tags the battlefield.  Itachi attempts a clone feint and Minato reacts.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict your counterpoint that Itachi outsped RM Naruto, thus leading to the idea that Itachi could outmaneuver Minato.  

Even if he does get past Minato, if he doesn't deal with Hashirama, they lose via the Flower.



Nikushimi said:


> Or, knowing how well Orochimaru controls them anyway, Itachi could probably just take them on directly, seal them all, and still wipe the floor with Oro.



Because clearly, Orochimaru will only stick with Part 1 feats.  




_Only click the spoiler if you dare:_

*Spoiler*: __ 



No going back now:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Orochimaru is the new king, he has overcome Shiki Fujin, The Sword of Totsuka, and his own Body Transfer jutsu to survive and carry out his plans.  Itachi failed, he could only stop the pawn and aid of Orochimaru while the master roams free.  

Instead of ending him during one of his multiple encounters, he allowed the beast to live on and partake in his infamous and exhilarating slaughter.  The king has been dethroned, the crown passed on to one of the two true possessors of pure dominance, *Orochimaru.*


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## Doge (Jan 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Orochimaru actually has that type of seal, then Minato can still shout out warnings of his attacks before he uses them the way the other zombies were doing. He also doesn't necessarily have to attack unless Orochimaru compells him to with a hand-sign; otherwise, he's free to stand around and chat or let attacks hit him like Nagato did.
> 
> So no matter what, he's not gonna be able to fight with his full power unless he willfully decides to help Orochimaru out. But since the state of mind is in-character...that's not gonna happen.



This guy failed to recall that Orochimaru gained Kabuto's knowledge when he absorbed his DNA from him.  You think he doesn't know Kabuto's new intel on Edo Tensei?

Please.


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## crisler (Jan 31, 2013)

If oro controls the kages, they'll be very weak. it's just the way ET zombies are.

if oro lets them be, then i'm sure the kages will provide sufficient info on the uchiha brothers to counter their techniques.

Itachi and Sasuke can't defeat the 4 kages, but if their main focus is sniping oro then it might work, given that the 4 kages should provide good info.

It's like, you can't beat 4 rogby players but you still can score.


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## Rocky (Jan 31, 2013)

kresh said:


> Against Part 1 Edo kages that literally showed next to no feats.  Madara has pretty much made it clear out of hype and copying Hashirama's own jutsus that Orochimaru is at a huge advantage now.  You really think that Hashi is just not going to be able to use those techs?  The Flower would end the battle right there.



It made pretty clear that's Orochimaru's Edo's aren't on the level of the actual Shinobi they're impersonating. Old Hiruzen blowing the Senju brothers _legs off_ could tell you that. Or Hiruzen sealing Hashi in the dark.




> Minato scatters his kunais and tags the battlefield.  Itachi attempts a clone feint and Minato reacts.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict your counterpoint that Itachi outsped RM Naruto, thus leading to the idea that Itachi could outmaneuver Minato.
> 
> Even if he does get past Minato, if he doesn't deal with Hashirama, they lose via the Flower.



Even if Orochimaru could use Edo Minato's abilities the way Minato can use them, that leaves Eternal Mangekyou Sasuke to take on Oro, who would be too distracted controlling Minato to defend himself with the other Edo's properly.




> Because clearly, Orochimaru will only stick with Part 1 feats.



What other feats does Orochimaru have with Edo Tensei?


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## Pein (Feb 1, 2013)

Hashirama by Madara feats could solo. Adding the other four is just over kill.


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## Akitō (Feb 1, 2013)

Okay, this Edo Tensei thing has to stop. They are _not_ suddenly extremely susceptible to Totsuka's Sword because they're Edo Tensei: they're just invulnerable to everything else. Sasuke can't kill the Hokage, and Itachi only has one way (which Orochimaru has info on). This isn't fair in the slightest. 

People have been downplaying Orochimaru's Edo Tensei for years now because of their performance against Hiruzen, but I'm pretty sure we all know that Kishimoto had no intention of Hashirama being so strong and had the intention of Hiruzen being the strongest kage. Thus, you can chalk the entire situation up to an inconsistency. Being an Edo Tensei is a massive advantage, and I feel like so many disregard that; you needn't worry about chakra levels, you needn't worry about injuries, and you're always fighting with the intent to kill. Sorry, but Itachi and Sasuke don't deserve this kind of massacre.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Akitō said:


> People have been downplaying Orochimaru's Edo Tensei for years now because of their performance against Hiruzen, but I'm pretty sure we all know that Kishimoto had no intention of Hashirama being so strong and had the intention of Hiruzen being the strongest kage. Thus, you can chalk the entire situation up to an inconsistency. Being an Edo Tensei is a massive advantage, and I feel like so many disregard that; you needn't worry about chakra levels, you needn't worry about injuries, and you're always fighting with the intent to kill. Sorry, but Itachi and Sasuke don't deserve this kind of massacre.



Reread the Hiruzen Oro battle, and just observe the way Orochimaru fights. He basically kept it to plain Kenjutsu. We didn't see many snake jutsu, if any at all.

Edo Tensei is most effective the way Kabuto utilized it, sitting in an isolated cave. He didn't join the front lines for a reason. Controlling the Edo's divides your attention. Orochimaru will be hard pressed to defend himself from two seasoned Mangekyou users if he was caught by a past-prime Hiruzen.


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## shyakugaun (Feb 1, 2013)

Believe it or not i favor the uchiha brothers to win this, Tsukiyomi on Orochimaru good game, Totsuka on Zombie Kages, GG, Enton/Amaterasu lands, GG, Susano can keep them safe for a while from a Minato Blitz, Izanami if all else fails


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## Akitō (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> Reread the Hiruzen Oro battle, and just observe the way Orochimaru fights. He basically kept it to plain Kenjutsu. We didn't see many snake jutsu, if any at all.
> 
> Edo Tensei is most effective the way Kabuto utilized it, sitting in an isolated cave. He didn't join the front lines for a reason. Controlling the Edo's divides your attention. Orochimaru will be hard pressed to defend himself from two seasoned Mangekyou users if he was caught by a past-prime Hiruzen.



Orochimaru wasn't trying his hardest when he fought Hiruzen; that was his flaw. He wanted to torture Hiruzen. We later see that Orochimaru usually opts for large-scale techniques and summons. 

And Orochimaru doesn't need to manually control the Edo Tensei bodies. They have an autopilot function, and it's implied that they retain their reactions and skills - the only thing missing is their strategical minds, but that won't really matter considering the overwhelming difference in power between the two sides. 

Orochimaru isn't a slouch either. He isn't going to get hit by Totsuka's Sword as soon as Itachi gets past the Hokage (which he won't). He's nearly as strong as Itachi, and it's foolish to think that with the help of four of the strongest characters in the series on his side, he'll be losing this.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 1, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> gtfo already



Orochimaru even stated himself that he was having the hokages toy with Hiruzen.

Hashirama can solo easily. He has offensive jutsu and can use mokuton as a defense(although not canon it reflected a bijuu bomb), bringer of darkness, flower world.

Tobirama has high level suitons that can be used well as support

Hiruzen is pretty good, good taijutsu, very smart, powerfull ninjutsu.

Minato is a god.

And I do consider Orochimaru stronger than Itachi. Orochimaru has shown to resit the shiki fujin, tried to tank totsuka, got around the totsuka seal due to his immense knowledge, and mastered edo tensei to a degree that he summon 4 hokages, 2 of which are top tier. Kabuto clearly showed that he could fight multiple uchiha's at once. Granted in a 1 on 1 fight it would be a tough fight and would put them around the same level since Orochimaru has a lot of weapons and techs to kill Itachi while Itachi's only hope is the sword of Totsuka.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 1, 2013)

if you where trying to spite the uchiha bros, you should of just put oro in a cave or give him kabuto lense caps, and also give him kabuto edo tensei feats, that way they wouldnt have a effective way to end the technique.

 ems sasuke can hold of the hokages with his susano and enton defense while itachi engages oro and hits him with a tsukiyomi and forces him to end the techniqe.


that or itachi could outright seal all the kages bar minato, sadly oro edo tensei has terrible feats and if old hiruzen was able to hit the first and second, im pretty much in agreement that totsuka can also.



shodai by hype should be way superior but oro edo's are so gimped i dont see them doing much.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 1, 2013)

If the Hashirama could solo based off feats, Mokuton should nullify Susanoo, then Minato throws Tag and blitzes Sasuke and Itachi, really Orochimaru here is overkill, genjutsu won't work really this match is clearly a stomp .


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 1, 2013)

As summons, I don't see the Hokage sympathizing for Sasuke. Oro can shut Hiruzen up with a tag and lie to the other Hokage on who Itachi is. They proceed to murder stomp the brothers. With hype, Oro w/Hokage STOMP. With feats, Oro w/Hokage win High-Extreme difficulty.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 1, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> If the Hashirama could solo based off feats, Mokuton should nullify Susanoo, then Minato throws Tag and blitzes Sasuke and Itachi, really Orochimaru here is overkill, genjutsu won't work really this match is clearly a stomp .



problem is this is oro's harishama, and he couldnt solo hiruzen based off feats.


how wont genjutsu work when the op didnt give oro kabuto's lense cap?


minato is met with a ribcage covered enton susano and a regular ribcage susano.



oro here is actually what makes the match easier, they have a chance to dispell the technique.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> Normally, yes they would be.
> 
> However, this is not Hashirama the landscape devastator, or Minato the Kyuubi slayer. These are the midless zombies an old, decaying Hiruzen was able to take down without his vision, along with Orochimaru's arms.



You are gonna eat these words. Quoted for future reference


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## Almondsand (Feb 1, 2013)

I like for these Edo Tensei to be billed as Sasuke power and not Orochimaru because Sasuke the one that made this possible. Also Itachi with Koto can just make one of the Kages his slave.. (Hashirama) so then it be Itachi with his slave and Sasuke vs Oro and the weaker Kages... We already know who wins.


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## Almondsand (Feb 1, 2013)

The fact that all 4 Kage are binded to the Edo tensei.. shows Itachi is superior and also would had been the best Kage.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 1, 2013)

I agree with Akito. 

Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the living Kage and Orochimaru was stated to be toying with him. We were supposed to see that fight as Orochimaru toying with someone stronger than Onoki or Ei. 

Hashirama and Tobirama still had access to every Jutsu that didn't require prep, Orochimaru just chose not to use them. He now has two more extremely powerful edo's in his collection.


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## Legend777 (Feb 1, 2013)

If the summoned Hokages live up to their hype then the Uchiha brothers get stomped .

If Orochimaru controls them like a noob then he is fucked .


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> You are gonna eat these words. Quoted for future reference



I'll gladly concede the argument if the Edo Hokage aquire new feats.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Orochimaru wasn't trying his hardest when he fought Hiruzen; that was his flaw. He wanted to torture Hiruzen. We later see that Orochimaru usually opts for large-scale techniques and summons.
> 
> And Orochimaru doesn't need to manually control the Edo Tensei bodies. They have an autopilot function, and it's implied that they retain their reactions and skills - the only thing missing is their strategical minds, but that won't really matter considering the overwhelming difference in power between the two sides.
> 
> Orochimaru isn't a slouch either. He isn't going to get hit by Totsuka's Sword as soon as Itachi gets past the Hokage (which he won't). He's nearly as strong as Itachi, and it's foolish to think that with the help of four of the strongest characters in the series on his side, he'll be losing this.



Orochimaru declared himself that he was no match for Itachi, and this was while he had the Edo Kage in his possession. Now you claim Orochimaru without his Edo's is approaching Itachi's level? 

Since you're going about this based on Hype alone, there's nothing set in stone regarding Sasuke vs mindless Minato and Hiruzen, and we already know how Oro feels about him and the Senjj brothers against Itachi.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 1, 2013)

Orochimaru's usage of Edo Tensei is indeed different.
Kabuto uses a more liberal kind of mind control he himself implemented that we've yet to see Orochimaru use. And it isn't something orochimaru can just replicate on the spot either, Kabuto uses a different type of talisman to do this.




Orochimaru's edo tensei are rigid and are slow. They act like walkers. They possess great fire power. More than the Uchiha even by Hashirama alone.

But they _can_ and _will_ get blitzed by attacks such as Susanoo and Amaterasu if and when the Uchiha decide to use those. If Orochimaru does not make them more fluid how Kabuto did, using Kabuto's different talisman, Susanoo and Amaterasu will _definitely_ defeat them all. They are not going to dodge those level of attacks with the way Orochimaru controlled them in the past. 

Mind you, it is incredibly likely Itachi will head right for Orochimaru instead of trying to defeat all the edo tensei. This again doesn't matter if Orochimaru makes them act down right mechanical and unable to dodge simple attacks, let alone Mangekyou jutsu.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi clone feints past the Edo Hokage, grabs Orochimaru, and uses Genjutsu to force him to end the Edo Tensei.
> 
> Then he kicks the piss out of Oro and calls it a day. Sasuke...I don't know...watches.
> 
> Nothing has changed.



Except that Orochimaru's snake sensing eliminates any genjutsu. 

Even without the snake sensing, Orochimaru resisted Itachi's genjutsu and was about to break it. If it were possible for Itachi to succeed, he'd need time to struggle with Orochimaru, time that he doesn't have with the Kages raping him.



Akitō said:


> Orochimaru wasn't trying his hardest when he  fought Hiruzen; that was his flaw. He wanted to torture Hiruzen. We  later see that Orochimaru usually opts for large-scale techniques and  summons.
> 
> And Orochimaru doesn't need to manually control the Edo Tensei bodies.  They have an autopilot function, and it's implied that they retain their  reactions and skills - the only thing missing is their strategical  minds, but that won't really matter considering the overwhelming  difference in power between the two sides.
> 
> Orochimaru isn't a slouch either. He isn't going to get hit by Totsuka's  Sword as soon as Itachi gets past the Hokage (which he won't). He's  nearly as strong as Itachi, and it's foolish to think that with the help  of four of the strongest characters in the series on his side, he'll be  losing this.



Fully agreed. 

Also let's not forget that Orochimaru is a threat to someone as powerful as EMS Sasuke by himself. 



Bkprince33 said:


> problem is this is oro's harishama, and he couldnt solo hiruzen based off feats.
> 
> 
> how wont genjutsu work when the op didnt give oro kabuto's lense cap?
> ...



Orochimaru was having Hiruzen toy with Hiruzen. Also don't consider Hiruzen weak, he was the strongest amongst Ei, Onoki, Yagura, and Gaara Sr. 

Kabuto  got his snake abilities from Orochimaru, he has them by default.  Orochimaru doesn't even need "lense caps," he has his eye-lids. Snake  sensing allows him to "see" using infra red and smell. 



Rocky915 said:


> Orochimaru declared himself that he was no  match for Itachi, and this was while he had the Edo Kage in his  possession. Now you claim Orochimaru without his Edo's is approaching  Itachi's level?
> 
> Since you're going about this based on Hype alone, there's nothing set  in stone regarding Sasuke vs mindless Minato and Hiruzen, and we already  know how Oro feels about him and the Senjj brothers against  Itachi.



That never happened. Orochimaru said he couldn't take Itachi's body, not that he couldn't beat him.


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## Kai (Feb 1, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> The fact that all 4 Kage are binded to the Edo tensei.. shows Itachi is superior and also would had been the best Kage.


Itachi gave Koto to Naruto to use against Sasuke. He didn't plan or foresee himself getting released whatsoever. 

Not really to Itachi's credit if it wasn't of his volition to do so.


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## αce (Feb 1, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Cant he let Minato keep his personality while forcing him to fight them? Like Kabuto did to Itachi.




He could but then Minato would just tell them how to counter his moves.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

♠Ace♠ said:


> He could but then Minato would just tell them how to counter his moves.



Itachi would figure that out after seeing it once anyway.


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## ImSerious (Feb 1, 2013)

Just cuz Minato will give them warnings doesnt mean they can suddenly run past him and get to Oro lol.


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## Doge (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It made pretty clear that's Orochimaru's Edo's aren't on the level of the actual Shinobi they're impersonating. Old Hiruzen blowing the Senju brothers _legs off_ could tell you that. Or Hiruzen sealing Hashi in the dark.



What makes you think Hashirama will suddenly be restricted to hell and irrelevant to the story as he will only be able to be a block-buster at best?

Orochimaru had pathetic Edo Tensei zombies for one clear reason, the plot line couldn't handle it.  Madara has been hyping Hashirama to no end, and yet Part 1 Edo Hashi was defeated by Hiruzen.  Why?  Because Hashirama could very well solo the Part 1 Konoha/world.  




Rocky said:


> Even if Orochimaru could use Edo Minato's abilities the way Minato can use them, that leaves Eternal Mangekyou Sasuke to take on Oro, who would be too distracted controlling Minato to defend himself with the other Edo's properly.



Kabuto was using all of his Edo Tensei zombies simultaneously, I'm thinking Orochimaru isn't going to go down that easily.



Rocky said:


> What other feats does Orochimaru have with Edo Tensei?



About as many as snake feats he had in part 1.  We're going to see soon enough what the Edo Hokages can do.  Unless of course, they're so weak that they are only used for knowledge and nothing else.




> Reread the Hiruzen Oro battle, and just observe the way Orochimaru fights. He basically kept it to plain Kenjutsu. We didn't see many snake jutsu, if any at all.



A Sea of Snakes would've ended Hiruzen immediately or the use of Manda.  Kishi clearly had to keep the plot alive.  



> Edo Tensei is most effective the way Kabuto utilized it, sitting in an isolated cave. He didn't join the front lines for a reason. Controlling the Edo's divides your attention. Orochimaru will be hard pressed to defend himself from two seasoned Mangekyou users if he was caught by a past-prime Hiruzen.



Either the Uchihas stop the flower before Orochimaru hides his head under the ground and refuses to come up, or they die quickly by a Hokage blitz.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

kresh said:


> What makes you think Hashirama will suddenly be restricted to hell and irrelevant to the story as he will only be able to be a block-buster at best?
> 
> Orochimaru had pathetic Edo Tensei zombies for one clear reason, the plot line couldn't handle it.  Madara has been hyping Hashirama to no end, and yet Part 1 Edo Hashi was defeated by Hiruzen.  Why?  Because Hashirama could very well solo the Part 1 Konoha/world.



Or maybe Orochimaru just wasn't good at controlling them? Instead of blaming things on plot, think a little.



> Kabuto was using all of his Edo Tensei zombies simultaneously, I'm thinking Orochimaru isn't going to go down that easily.



Kabuto isn't Orochimaru. And Kabuto got to sit in a cave and control them. Kabuto set his Edos to autopilot when he dueled the Uchiha Brothers.



> About as many as snake feats he had in part 1.  We're going to see soon enough what the Edo Hokages can do.  Unless of course, they're so weak that they are only used for knowledge and nothing else.



There really isn't any guarantee they will fight. Orochimaru's primary reason for reviving them seemed to be knowledge.




> A Sea of Snakes would've ended Hiruzen immediately or the use of Manda.  Kishi clearly had to keep the plot alive.



Be more creative instead of blaming the author.


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2013)

Depends. Do the Edo Hokage have access to their full strength or are they pale shadows of themselves as they were in Part I? If it's the latter than EMS Sasuke & Itachi have a chance, depending on the effects of Zetsu's Senju DNA on Orochimaru's skills. If it's the latter Itachi & Sasuke wouldn't get raped because Orochimaru will likely toy around at first, but they have next to zero chance of winning.


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## Empathy (Feb 2, 2013)

Hashirama and Tobirama weren't pathetic shells of their formers selves in Part I and were never indicated to be. Orochimaru was just toying around with them like you said in your latter scenario, Turrin.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Feb 2, 2013)

With the 4 Hokages Orochimaru stomps. Without them the Uchiha's stomp. It's as simple as that.


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Hashirama and Tobirama weren't pathetic shells of their formers selves in Part I and were never indicated to be. Orochimaru was just toying around with them like you said in your latter scenario, Turrin.


I find toying around as a pretty poor excuses. The difference in strength was too drastic for me to accept it was all because of toying around. Ether there was something holding the Hokages back or they were retecon'd. I tend to lean towards the latter.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 2, 2013)

Retcon guys. SM Hashi Cells Oro solos. Edo Hokage aren't needed.


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## Doge (Feb 2, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Or maybe Orochimaru just wasn't good at controlling them? Instead of blaming things on plot, think a little.



Think a little?  Do you have anything to back up your claim with?  Here's Orochimaru's resume:

1.) He attained relative immortality through his mind/body transfer jutsu.  Only a handful of people have a technique even like this one.

2.) He knew exactly where the Uzamaki ruins were, which mask to use, and how to release all of the souls from the stomach.  

3.) He found the DNA of Hashirama and Tobirama in the first place.

4.) Manipulated leagues of ninjas, got Sasuke to turn away from the Leaf, and figured out Sasori's mind control technique used on Kabuto.

5.) Has knowledge on Sennin chakra/mode, knows about the Rinnegan/Mokuton.


Furthermore, there is no proof that an Orochimaru could not get Hashirama to use an extremely powerful Mokuton simply due to lack of control.  He was clearly controlling both of them at the same time, but now he had an arbitrary extent of ability never once mentioned in the manga?

My theory is that he was either nerfed by Kishi or toyed around too much.  But now with the Juubi loose, Madara alive, and BM Naruto present, I'm expecting many good things to come.



Rocky said:


> Kabuto isn't Orochimaru. And Kabuto got to sit in a cave and control them. Kabuto set his Edos to autopilot when he dueled the Uchiha Brothers.



Orochimaru absorbed not only his cells, but Kabuto's knowledge, remember?  He'll now exactly how to use the "autopilot" ability.



Rocky said:


> There really isn't any guarantee they will fight. Orochimaru's primary reason for reviving them seemed to be knowledge.



They must really know a lot if Orochimaru were willing to summon 4 of the most powerful ninjas in existence and trust his own abilities along with Taka's to be enough to do whatever it is he's doing.

I'm pretty sure Orochimaru is going to make use of their skills, but the knowledge will be the biggest component.  It seems silly to leave hyped up Hashi, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato all to collect dust after their knowledge is revealed.




Rocky said:


> Be more creative instead of blaming the author.



The only new revelation I'll admit is that Orochimaru was an idiot and toyed around.  But until I see any proof that Orochimaru somehow was not able to make Hashirama use a powerful Mokuton, I'm not buying it.  Hashi was clearly 100% under Orochimaru's control, and it was never stated he had any trouble with control.


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## Veo (Feb 2, 2013)

Woot?

Orochimaru & cia stomp so horribly bad that I need to have a snap because I'm feeling dizzy.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 2, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Orochimaru was having Hiruzen toy with Hiruzen. Also don't consider Hiruzen weak, he was the strongest amongst Ei, Onoki, Yagura, and Gaara Sr.


Oro toying with hiruzen doesn't have any bearing on the two Kages speed, the fact is old hiruzen was able to keep up and land hits on shodai and tobirama, why are we to believe itachi totsuka couldn't land a hit and effectively seal them, when hiruzen was able to hit them in the dark?.


I never considerd hiruzen weak, fact is I consider oro Edo's gimp, because there's no way old hiruzen could take on prime shodai and tobirama at the same time in the dark and not get stomped, note I'm saying "old" hiruzen.

Hiruzen being considerd the strongest based off kabuto's analysis isn't much to go off anyway, it was just a mere hype statement nothing more.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Kabuto  got his snake abilities from Orochimaru, he has them by default.  Orochimaru doesn't even need "lense caps," he has his eye-lids. Snake  sensing allows him to "see" using infra red and smell.



Orochimaru doesn't have the sensing to the degree Kabuto had them, keep in mind Kabuto had sage mode which enhanced everything and even with the enhanced speed and reflex and enhancements to his body he still felt the need to cap his eyes, oro having a inferior body, reflexes and sensing will at the very least need the same cap Kabuto had.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> That never happened. Orochimaru said he couldn't take Itachi's body, not that he couldn't beat him.



Gaara Sr


Oro clearly states he can't beat the heir to the sharingon , then he also follows up and says why bother with naruto who hasn't got something like that.


Oro clearly feels he needs a sharingon to take itachi on.


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## iJutsu (Feb 3, 2013)

Hashi used bringer of darkness. Oro forces Minato to use Shiki Fujin. Uchiha bros dead in two turns.


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## Hazuki (Feb 3, 2013)

If it's a fight with *intention to kill*

shodaime alone is enough to take them out 
the 3 other kage take a tea with orochimaru watching this

Actually i don't even think that someone as clever as itachi would be enough idiot to challenge the guy who has beaten uchiha madara in the past


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## IchLiebe (Feb 3, 2013)

iJutsu said:


> Hashi used bringer of darkness. Oro forces Minato to use Shiki Fujin. Uchiha bros dead in two turns.



Bringer of Darkness is a game ender either way you look at it.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 3, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Bringer of Darkness is a game ender either way you look at it.



Like it was for hiruzen right 

I guess it makes sense




I don't see how intent to kill suddenly makes oro's arrogance a non factor, oro also intended to kill hiruzen.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 3, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Like it was for hiruzen right
> 
> I guess it makes sense
> 
> ...



Hiruzen has sensing abilities other than deciphering light to see. BOD takes all light away, they can't see anything cause their eyes have no light to decipher to make an image of anything. Last I checked Sasuke may be able to as he said that his EMS could see well in the dark but even then with the total absolution of light his sight  would be rendered useless. Hiruzen is old and knowledgeable in all shinobi aspects its plausible that he had a sensing jutsu, maybe the shiki fujin had something to do with it. All we know is Hiruzen did Sasuke and Itachi can't.

Makes perfect sense, if u only guessing u ain't thinking.

No, Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen

_Kurama Avatar_ "do you intend to let the former hokages kill bit by bit as they *TOY WITH YOU*


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## Riley F. (Feb 3, 2013)

The Hokage do not need to be at full potential in order for Orochimaru to snatch victory. Controlling them at a moderate level and having them release overly hax Jutsu one after the other is enough.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 3, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Hiruzen has sensing abilities other than deciphering light to see. BOD takes all light away, they can't see anything cause their eyes have no light to decipher to make an image of anything. Last I checked Sasuke may be able to as he said that his EMS could see well in the dark but even then with the total absolution of light his sight  would be rendered useless. Hiruzen is old and knowledgeable in all shinobi aspects its plausible that he had a sensing jutsu, maybe the shiki fujin had something to do with it. All we know is Hiruzen did Sasuke and Itachi can't.
> 
> Makes perfect sense, if u only guessing u ain't thinking.
> 
> ...




The only person guessing is you, it was never stated hiruzen was a sensor or had any such abilities, unless you can provide scans or evidence your assumption is baseless.


What's more so itachi could seal the two kages before hashi even uses the technique.



Orochimaru still had the intent to kill hiruzen, being arrogant or toying around does not take away killing intent, oro has been shown to be arrogant in every single fight he has been in , so explain to me why would this magically change now?


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 4, 2013)

itachi koto's oro 

and the four kages plus Oro becomes itachi power

Or itachi koto's hashi how solo's the rest.


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## Freddy Mercury (Feb 4, 2013)

Orochimaru still gets blitzed by Itachi's susanoo?

Orochimaru still gets blitzed by Itachi's susanoo.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 4, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> The only person guessing is you, it was never stated hiruzen was a sensor or had any such abilities, unless you can provide scans or evidence your assumption is baseless.


 No, I am using a base that is logical. It never stated that Hiruzen wasn't and he is known as the professor for a reason. I can put scans of where his sensei Tobirama placed 1 finger on the ground to sense and Minato did the same thing. Hiruzen was in total darkness, also the kage nor Orochimaru moved, and was able to find all 3 opponents rather easily.





> What's more so itachi could seal the two kages before hashi even uses the technique.


 Itachi couldn't even bring up Susanoo before Hashirama using BOD a 1 handseal jutsu. And it takes time to seal someone after STABBING THEM. It doesn't automatically seal them, it takes time. 





> Orochimaru still had the intent to kill hiruzen, being arrogant or toying around does not take away killing intent, oro has been shown to be arrogant in every single fight he has been in , so explain to me why would this magically change now?



No he didn't I showed u specific evidence.


"Watch u die bit by bit as the former kage(whom are under the total control of Orochimaru) toy with you".

Just because Orochimaru wanted Hiruzen dead doesn't mean that he was bloodlusted and wanted to kill Hiruzen as fast as possible. Orochimaru wanted to drag it out so Hiruzen would suffer more thus giving Oro some enjoyment. 2 vs Itachi where he was caught in genjutsu and tried to tank totsuka, he won't fall for them so easily next time.
I don't know about magically changing, I don't deal with magic, I deal with facts, and logical explanations. Not that Itachi stabs 5 opponents and seals them all before they can attack. Or that they can see without light.


I would say you are guessing but even people who guess are right in some sense, but not u.


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## Vergil642 (Feb 4, 2013)

Oro makes sure the Hokages aren't playing with the Uchiha. They proceed to beat them while he goes and hides with Leech All Creation as he's the weak link the Uchiha are going to be trying to strike.


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## LostSelf (Feb 4, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Orochimaru actually has that type of seal, then Minato can still shout out warnings of his attacks before he uses them the way the other zombies were doing. He also doesn't necessarily have to attack unless Orochimaru compells him to with a hand-sign; otherwise, he's free to stand around and chat or let attacks hit him like Nagato did.
> 
> So no matter what, he's not gonna be able to fight with his full power unless he willfully decides to help Orochimaru out. But since the state of mind is in-character...that's not gonna happen.



I bet the OP meant the thread to be with the tenseis obeying, though. If that's the case, Hashirama by himself can bind both Susano'os if he did that to PS (it's likely, i doubt that Madara said "I'm losing this fight even with kyuubi, i am not using PS" like a lot of people are saying) and force them to fight without it and using it only to their protection.

Anyway, if that's OP's intention, there's no need to go into details, though.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 4, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No, I am using a base that is logical. It never stated that Hiruzen wasn't and he is known as the professor for a reason. I can put scans of where his sensei Tobirama placed 1 finger on the ground to sense and Minato did the same thing. Hiruzen was in total darkness, also the kage nor Orochimaru moved, and was able to find all 3 opponents rather easily. Itachi couldn't even bring up Susanoo before Hashirama using BOD a 1 handseal jutsu. And it takes time to seal someone after STABBING THEM. It doesn't automatically seal them, it takes time.


Your guessing,no matter how you try to rephrase it, it's nothing more then a guess,the manga or anime never showed hiruzen to use a sensing jutsu, your just making things up to benefit your argument.


Bod wasn't hashi's first choice of jutsu, and Itachi already showed he's quick to the gun when facing highlevel opponents via nagato.


IchLiebe said:


> No he didn't I showed u specific evidence.
> 
> 
> "Watch u die bit by bit as the former kage(whom are under the total control of Orochimaru) toy with you".
> ...


He isn't blood lusted in this scenario,he has the intent to kill.


Just because you toy around with someone doesn't mean you don't have a killing intent, him saying watch you *die* is clear proof of his killing intent.


What your doing is attempting to ignore Oro's characteristics which simply isn't plausible,if you deal with facts and logic then maybe I can spell it out for you with numbers.

Oro vs Itachi = oro being arrogant, oro vs Hiruzen =oro being arrogant, oro vs jiraiya = oro being arrogant, oro vs sasuke = oro being arrogant, Itachi vs oro part 2 = oro being arrogant. So out of all the fights he's been in oro has been shown to be a arrogant guy that's a 100% fact, now all of a sudden where suppose to believe he will not show a ounce of arrogance? 


Oro's arrogance and inferior edo's will lead to his downfall.





IchLiebe said:


> I would say you are guessing but even people who guess are right in some sense, but not u.



Of course you can't say I'm guessing, because unlike you my statements are backed up by the manga and not a I hate the uchiha whim


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## eyeknockout (Feb 4, 2013)

if it is oro who is controlling them, itachi solos with totsuka swipe including oro himself

if the hokages control their own actions then itachi and sasuke have no chance


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## IchLiebe (Feb 4, 2013)

So let me get this right


Orochimaru wins because he knows not to fuck around with Itachi as he has 2xs already, and has 4 kages under his control.

Itachi and Sasuke win because Orochimaru is arrogant



Even Virgil admitted that the Uchihas would lose if someone like him believes they will lose then he is basing it off a logical and feasible basis of events that would occur in the fight. Whereas u simply see the small picture and don't know what your talking about, imo. 

This is how it goes

Start of Fight, parties starting at appropriate distance and mindsets.

Oro and Hashi falls back, Minato and Tobi advance and they engage the Uchihas in a brief skirmish. Itachi and Sasuke use a katon, Tobi block both with suiton, Minato FTG Lvl 2 whichever one he engaged in CQC, I hope Itachi so thats the one Im going to say. Sasuke goes Final Susanoo and shoots an arro and Minato he flashes away, Hashirama starts binding Sasuke, Sasuke uses Amaterasu on the mokuton, Hiruzen makes an earth wall. Hashi use BOD and then proceed with flowerworld when Sauce loses consciousness then he dies due to blitzs when Susanoo fails.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 5, 2013)

Or Itachi uses dat koto.


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## Vergil642 (Feb 5, 2013)

Elaboration: If Oro starts with the Hokages out he wins though might end up in Totsuka's bottle. If he doesn't he might get killed before using the Hokages.

So OP, which is it? Does Oro start with or without the Hokages on the field?


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'll gladly concede the argument if the Edo Hokage aquire new feats.


Concession accepted 

Hashirama catching a Bijuudama fighting toe to toe vs EMS Madara, Full Kyuubi and Perfect Susano'o.

Itachi gets stomped.


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## Jinemba (Feb 14, 2013)

...Oh gawd what a stomp. This is just, can't even put it into words I actually want to see this play out so I can witness the stomping. Orochimaru + arguably the 4 strongest kages, one of which alone is called a god and could solo.

Anyone who thinks Itachi + Sasuke beats

Orochimaru
Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen
Minato

Just look at that line-up. Orochimaru + Kages gang stomp the uchiha bros like literally just step on them.

No, if Itachi and Sasuke are smart, they flee on sight.


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## Kai (Feb 14, 2013)

Doesn't matter if Oro is controlling them or not.

Hashirama breaks free of Edo Tensei and proceeds to solo.


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## UchihaSasukeSama (Feb 14, 2013)

marco55656 said:


> edo minato solo's



Even that stupid Sasuke can stomp Minato, unless Minato tagged Sasuke before he gets up the Susano'o and pop up inside of the Susano'o but I don't think he can pop up inside.

Itachi can end the Edo Tensei. Then, EMS SASUKE and Itachi vs. Orochimaru>>>Itachi solos, Sasuke solos.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 14, 2013)

Wait... Didn't Orochimaru absorb everything Kabuto had? Including his abilities?

If that's the case then Orochimaru could solo on his own given that Kabuto would've acomplished this if not for Izanami and unfortunately for Itachi and Sasuke, Izanami wouldn't work on a person like Orochimaru who acknowledges himself like who he is.

With Edo Tensei and having the Hokages with their own personalities intact... Hashirama would solo alone, he beat PS EMS Madara + Kyuubi for fucks sake.

This is a complete rape no matter how you look at it. Even if Orochimaru didn't absorb Kabuto's abilities(like Sage Mode and all that stuff) he would still win with the massive firepower he has in the Edo Tenseis.

Only way the Uchiha duo can win this is if Orochimaru doesn't have knowledge in which could give the Uchiha duo a chance to Genjutsu Orochimaru, stop the Edo Tensei and of course, defeat him. But the odds IMO would still favour Orochimaru.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 14, 2013)

Orochimaru wins pretty easily. Adding the Hokage to Orochimaru's arsenal makes this unfair for the Uchiha brothers.


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## Jinemba (Feb 14, 2013)

Whoever made this thread must be high, this isn't even a fight Orochimaru + Kages stomp the Uchiha's with no difficulty at all not even a drop of difficulty.


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## Empathy (Feb 14, 2013)

Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez said:


> Wait... Didn't Orochimaru absorb everything Kabuto had? Including his abilities?



He only took his own.


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## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

Double edged sword here. Does Orochimaru have Senju chakra? If he doesn't then summoning Tobirama is essentially suicide. He's going to kill him. As for Hashirama he'll probably destroy anyone who attempts to come at him in a menacing manner but I really doubt he's going to follow Orochimaru's orders.

Minato and Hiruzen should be enough assuming Hiruzen doesn't get genjutsu'd out of the fight immediately. But yeah, Orochimaru is going to die if he summons Tobirama.


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## Stermor (Feb 15, 2013)

actually more fun to battle can the 4 hokages using killing intent cause the uchiha brothers a heart attack??

also minato's time space barrier kinda prevent the uchiha's from going to oro directly.. since neither itachi or sasuke is capable of attack faster then minato can react to.. 

so i'm still under the impression killing intent will kill sasuke by virtue of heart attack.. and itachi is going to run away


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## Bonly (Feb 15, 2013)

With the edo hokages then Orochimaru wins quite easily assuming Hashi does what Orochi wants more times then not. Without them Orochi would lose to the Uchiha bros more times then not. Either way its clear who the winner would be.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

Itachi has the luxury of not having to fight the summons (as well as a way to seal them) and only having to make Orochimaru end the Jutsu with Genjutsu. Orochimaru also doesn't have the luxury of letting the summons fight freely, since it'll hinder their success.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And letting Hashi be summed at full power will mean him breaking free of his control.




Itachi also has the luxury of having Sasuke on his side, making Itachi's task easier. There is a reason Orochimaru, despite knowing Edo Tensei, admitted his inferiority to Itachi. Even Hiruzen was able to deal with two of his summons in the dark.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 15, 2013)

Hashi rebels, Tobirama has to be immobilized(which makes him a non factor), Minato may find a way to free himself, Hiruzen will be under full control I guess.

Oro is still vulnerable to genjutsu and against 2 Uchihas...well.


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## Baroxio (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't know why Hashirama is here when it is canon that Orocimaru can't control him even now.

...Unless it's the crap Part 1 Hashi. Which is basically a non-factor.

Tobirama is in a similar vein, in that his resistance may just make him do nothing.

Against Minato and Hiruzen, Itachi and Sasuke calmly walk past them with Susano activated and Tsukyomi Oro to oblivion.

Hashi is the only one who makes a difference here (Tobirama is still featless either way) and it is unclear whose side he's on. If anything, he'll join up with Itachi (the better ninja brah :ho) and proceed to solo.


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## Almondsand (Feb 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi gave Koto to Naruto to use against Sasuke. He didn't plan or foresee himself getting released whatsoever.
> 
> Not really to Itachi's credit if it wasn't of his volition to do so.



Fact is he still broke out. His feat with Koto is the greatest shown in the manga while the other guy we saw use it Danzo blantantly failed. Itachi configured it to his eyes so it was of his own volition./


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