# Weakest ninja that beats Itachi's Perfect Susano'o?



## Sadgoob (Oct 5, 2015)

So I saw this.

Let's assume it still has .


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2015)

> Itachi's Perfect Susano'o, naturally, is way cooler looking than any other Uchiha.


Seriously? It's the fugliest out of them all! 

anyway, itachi can't use PS outside of the games. If we assume for the sake of this thread that he can
he will probably automatically die right away. 

So, I guess given him additional chakra and advantages will be needed.

That's without even going to the whole thing about being feat-less and we know nothing about its abilities anyway.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 5, 2015)

Eh, what's to know? It's his Susano'o but bigger. And _healthy_ Itachi no doubt had the stamina to use it for several days at a time. ​


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## Ersa (Oct 5, 2015)

A Perfect Susanoo with the Imperial Treasures is the strongest Perfect Susanoo not including Rikudo variants like Sasuke and Kakashi's.


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## Kai (Oct 5, 2015)

Possibly Shisui, although Itachi would be favored more because of the treasures.

If not, possibly Hashirama.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Doesn't change much actually. Perfect Susano doesn't really help against Minato and Tobirama. Helps against Nagato's CST but CT is still debatable. Don't think Hashirama/VotE Madara are going to lose either. Unless lucky Totsuka but I don't think it's reliable - Madara's PS Sword would have OHKO Hashirama all the same but it failed to connect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> So I saw this.
> 
> Let's assume it still has .



Probably Hashirama with SM Buddha.



Alex Payne said:


> Doesn't change much actually. Perfect Susano doesn't really help against Minato and Tobirama. Helps against Nagato's CST but CT is still debatable. Don't think Hashirama/VotE Madara are going to lose either. Unless lucky Totsuka but I don't think it's reliable - Madara's PS Sword would have OHKO Hashirama all the same but it failed to connect.



So you think Minato orTobirama can defeat Vote Hashirama or Madara?


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 5, 2015)

-BM or BSM Naruto kills him.
-EMS Madara w/ or w/o Kurama kills him.
-Hashirama w/ or w/o Buddha kills him.

Everyone below that loses.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you think Minato orTobirama can defeat Vote Hashirama or Madara?


And where did I say that?


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Jiraiya



Sound jutsu.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 5, 2015)

The weakest at can beat him is PS Shisui


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You just mad. "Straight from the pen of Kishimoto."



The game developers wanted to have a full set of perfect susanoo users in their game, so they personally asked kishimoto to design perfect susanoos for shisui and itachi. This isnt the first time they have asked kishi to design something for them.

They asked him to design outfits for hidan, sasori, deidara and kakuzu from before they were in alatsuki.

You obviously havent heard of mecha naruto either. Dont get too excited.


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## Mercurial (Oct 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You just mad. "Straight from the pen of Kishimoto."



Like Mecha Naruto, drawn by Kishimoto for another videogame, which isn't canon obviously.

Like 17yrs old Naruto as Hokage, drawn by Kishimoto for another videogame, which isn't canon obviously.

Like Itachi's PS and Shisui's Susanoo and PS, drawn by Kishimoto for videogames to make more money, aren't canon. They don't exist in the real manga so I won't even bother in discussing that, as it isn't much more than fanfiction.

Anyway Obito or War Arc Kakashi can teleport right behind Itachi in the PS and Kamui GG him (Kakashi) or phase through their counter and touch and warp him (Obito).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And where did I say that?



You said perfect Susano'o wouldn't make a difference against them.



Raikiri19 said:


> Like Mecha Naruto, drawn by Kishimoto for another videogame, which isn't canon obviously.
> 
> Like 17yrs old Naruto as Hokage, drawn by Kishimoto for another videogame, which isn't canon obviously.
> 
> ...



But still PS for Itachi and Shisui make more sense than PS for Kakashi, canon or not 

and no they can't tp inside Susano'o.
Also you are suggesting they can TP warp Hashirama and Madara too, with the same strategy.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said perfect Susano'o wouldn't make a difference against them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not at all. Kakashi had rikudo chakra and obitos soul within him. So yes ps is perfectly plausible .

But itachi and shisui without rikudo chakra or ems, awakening ps is not even funny plausible. Someone who barely has the stamina to maintain v4 suanoo cant awaken ps.


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## Mercurial (Oct 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said perfect Susano'o wouldn't make a difference against them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does not (Kakashi had Rikudo chakra plus all Obito's chakra which was also boosted by Hashirama DNA; Itachi could barely mantain his V4 Susanoo for a brief time), and anyway sadly one is canon where the others aren't, like it or not but that is.

Madara and Hashirama have reactions far above the ones of Itachi and Shisui.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said perfect Susano'o wouldn't make a difference against them.


In Itachi's case - yes. He lacks stamina so he can't freely use it and make mistakes like Madara(his reactions are also inferior). His normal Susano is already enough to defend from Minato's/Tobirama's offensive moves and to OHKO them with landed hit. Perfect Susano doesn't give Itachi anything new to successfully use against Hiraishin-users. Why waste chakra when you are already at a disadvantage in stamina department?


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 5, 2015)

Assuming he's granted the stamina to maintain it, itachi's PS is the strongest non-Rikudo variant. His spiritual weaponry when utilized through PS would be drastic, a long ass sword that seals when it pierces and a huge ass shield that blocks attacks, he'd be nearly unstoppable. With that being said people like Hashirama with Buddha can take him. Madara however cannot, Kurama would be a huge target waiting to get sealed by totsuka. And naturally with the spirit weapons Itachi's PS is more powerful than Madara's.


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## Kai (Oct 5, 2015)

If you look closely at Itachi's eyes and clothes, it appears he was 'designed' to use Complete Susanoo as an Edo Tensei.

Stamina and backlash shouldn't be issues here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> It does not (Kakashi had Rikudo chakra plus all Obito's chakra which was also boosted by Hashirama DNA; Itachi could barely mantain his V4 Susanoo for a brief time), and anyway sadly one is canon where the others aren't, like it or not but that is.


Come on man, Obito came from heaven and gave Kakashi chakra and Kakashi, without ems, was able to use PS without even having to go through the lower stages(like Sasuke did).
The whole instance was fanfiction level. I literally wouldn't believe it unless I saw it on the actual manga.

Also Itachi could barely maintain V4 Susano'o when he was dying from a terminal disease and was almost out of chakra. Using his worst state to evaluate his max potential is kind of ill intended. 

Kakashi couldn't walk straight after using Kamui on a Susano'o arrow, in a completely fresh state. 
He is the last person that comes to mind to use PS.



> [
> Madara and Hashirama have reactions far above the ones of Itachi and Shisui.



Overstatement. 

Itachi has shown better reactions than EMS Sasuke during their fight against Kabuto, who was able to tag SM(albeit blind) Madara. I see SM and EMS precog to be interchangalbe so, no. I wouldn't give Madara any decisive reaction advantage over Itachi.



Alex Payne said:


> In Itachi's case - yes. He lacks stamina so he can't freely use it and make mistakes like Madara(his reactions are also inferior). His normal Susano is already enough to defend from Minato's/Tobirama's offensive moves and to OHKO them with landed hit. Perfect Susano doesn't give Itachi anything new to successfully use against Hiraishin-users. Why waste chakra when you are already at a disadvantage in stamina department?



I don't see any difference.


Outside  his PS Madara doesn't have anything on Itachi(he doesn't have Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, his inferior stages of Susano'o don't have totsuka or Yata). Its obvioust that it is PS which puts Madara on a completely different ball park than high tier shinobi(Minato, Tobirama, Itachi etc). 

So if Minato can defeat Itachi despite PS, then he can defeat Madara despite PS.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't see any difference.
> 
> 
> Outside  his PS Madara doesn't have anything on Itachi(he doesn't have Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, his inferior stages of Susano'o don't have totsuka or Yata). Its obvioust that it is PS which puts Madara on a completely different ball park than high tier shinobi(Minato, Tobirama, Itachi etc).
> ...


It is quite simple actually. You are underrating Madara.


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## Kai (Oct 5, 2015)

Madara has both greater chakra reserves and potency compared to Itachi, as shown by the fact he can dish out the largest Katon produced by a lone shinobi.

It's not just the Complete Susanoo.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

I also chuckled at "Madara doesn't have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi". How did he unlock Susano without both eyes having special moves?


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I never realized people liked Itachi on NF



were you blind this whole time? 


@Alex Payne

that thing was reteconned long time ago...


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Alex Payne
> 
> that thing was reteconned long time ago...


How exactly?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

He can definitely use it rather comfortably as Edo Tensei, but his living incarnation is another story. 
I never believed you needed massive reserves to use Perfect Susano'o. The potency and strength of its attacks, however, depend on chakra quality and sheer amount. 

Itachi's PS would likely be much smaller than Madara's, for example.
He'd still have an amplified defense alongside his legendary weapons, though. 


And it's definitely canon, seeing it was drawn by Kishimoto himself. People call these fucking movies canonical sources, so I see no reason why Kishi's own designs from a recent game after the manga are different.


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> How exactly?



in the 3rd Databook it was indeed stated that you need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to unlock Susanoo. However, Sasuke does not have the Tsukuyomi (he has Enton instead), and Obito's eyes both have Kamui, and Madara has not shown anything at all, and yet all of them can use Susanoo.

If you want to take Kishi's stuff with Shisui as well (who has Koto) can use the Susanoo.

Therefore, the thing about "Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi" is not true anymore, and we really have
nothing to suggest that you need to have 2 other jutsu to use the Susanoo either.

Especially madara who got TONS of chapter to show his power, if he has something, he would
have shown it in 1 of the tens of chapter he got.


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## Kai (Oct 5, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> And it's definitely canon, seeing it was drawn by Kishimoto himself. People call these fucking movies canonical sources, so I see no reason why Kishi's own designs from a recent game after the manga are different.


In this case it seems more like what Itachi and Shisui's Complete Susanoo would have looked like, *had they* been able to manifest it. Any reader knows neither of them were actually able to accomplish that. It's like the DBZ games which included fusions that were never performed in the canon - showing what they _would have_ looked like had they fused.

I mean, Kishimoto also designed Mecha Naruto in UNSR.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> in the 3rd Databook it was indeed stated that you need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to unlock Susanoo. However, Sasuke does not have the Tsukuyomi (he has Enton instead), and Obito's eyes both have Kamui, and Madara has not shown anything at all, and yet all of them can use Susanoo.
> 
> If you want to take Kishi's stuff with Shisui as well (who has Koto) can use the Susanoo.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about Amaterasu+Tsukuyomi. I am talking about both MS eyes having unique powers in them. Itachi had Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu, Sasuke had Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, Kakashi had different Kamui. Shisui's Susano is game-canon just like these new Perfect Susano. But even he had unique Koto. Madara not having anything except Susano doesn't make sense. Especially considering him being strongest Uchiha before Rikudo-powered Sasuke/Jubito. Sasuke also stated that you need to awaken MS moves in each eyes before unlocking Susano. When he was fighting Gaara iirc.


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## Icegaze (Oct 5, 2015)

@alex same reason Sasuke doesn't have tskuyomi but can use susanoo


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> in the 3rd Databook it was indeed stated that you need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to unlock Susanoo. However, Sasuke does not have the Tsukuyomi (he has Enton instead), and Obito's eyes both have Kamui, and Madara has not shown anything at all, and yet all of them can use Susanoo.
> 
> If you want to take Kishi's stuff with Shisui as well (who has Koto) can use the Susanoo.
> 
> ...



I think it goes more along the lines of unlocking two techniques of Mangekyou Sharingan prior to finally unlocking Susano'o. 


Obito has the offensive/defensive versions of Kamui. Somehow, the eyes are connected in the way progression occurs, seeing they unlocked MS simultaneously in different locations. Obito started using his technique right as it unlocked; Kakashi apparently didn't begin using it until P2.

Itachi has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke has Enton and Amaterasu.

Madara - at the very least - has Tsukuyomi, considering Mugen Tsukuyomi is just an evolution of the regular one. I'd also assume he's got Amaterasu due to being the predecessor of Sasuke and resembling him in many ways.

With Shisui, we know there's Kotoamatsukami in each one of the eyes. Whether that refers to disparity between the variants in unknown...


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## Alex Payne (Oct 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @alex same reason Sasuke doesn't have tskuyomi but can use susanoo


Left eye - Amaterasu. Right eye - Kagutsuchi.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Because they asked him as with Mecha Naruto. Stop being delusional just because it's itachi.
> It's a fucking game.



Dissimilar comparison. Mecha Naruto is something that doesn't even relate to the series. 
Giving Itachi PS doesn't change anything when it has ambiguous and unclear prerequisites to begin with... 




> stupid example. The movie is stated by Kishi to be canon and part of the story.
> The games are not. You might as well believe every other thing in the game as well
> 
> and how Ino can defeat Kaguya for example in the game.



Did I ever say Kishimoto wrote the entire game or supervised every single moment?

Of course Itachi having PS is more believable than a fodder defeating Kaguya. We actually know that Kishi went out of his way to draw it.


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## Marsala (Oct 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I am not talking about Amaterasu+Tsukuyomi. I am talking about both MS eyes having unique powers in them. Itachi had Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu, Sasuke had Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, Kakashi had different Kamui. Shisui's Susano is game-canon just like these new Perfect Susano. But even he had unique Koto. Madara not having anything except Susano doesn't make sense. Especially considering him being strongest Uchiha before Rikudo-powered Sasuke/Jubito. Sasuke also stated that you need to awaken MS moves in each eyes before unlocking Susano. When he was fighting Gaara iirc.



Madara having only Susano'o indeed makes very little sense, but he had tons of opportunity to demonstrate something else and yet never did. He could have some crappy powers like Shin, or the meteor summoning (never covered in the databook!) could have been one of them.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

The meteor power was more akin to Rinnegan-based techniques like BT, in my opinion.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> No it's not.  Mecha Naruto was also drawn by Kishi. I guess it's canon as well. The amount of desperation from Itachi fans is hilarious.



Mecha Naruto doesn't even exist in the manga.

Kakashi manifested Perfect Susano'o through Obito's remaining chakra alongside Mangekyou Sharingan. He never unlocked Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, and the fact that he had been Juubi Jin previously doesn't add to the requirement of manifesting it. If that were the case, Madara would have never unlocked it in the first place. It could just be that using PS deteriorates one's eyes faster than usual due to sheer exertion from using the technique, which is why the eternal light of EMS is required to use such an ability. In fact, Susano'o is what basically destroyed MS Sasuke's eyesight.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Doesn't really matter. According to you guys anything drawn by Kishi equates to canon. Mecha Naruto was drawn by Kishi therefore I guess he's canon.
> 
> Desperate Itachi fans are desperate. It's honestly pathetic. Trying so hard to convince people a game is canon just to try and make Itachi relevant again in terms of power.



Try to refute everything I just said... Manga evidence tells us that Perfect Susano'o can be manifested without EMS. Obito never gained EMS naturally, and Madara's Rinnegan was completely separate.

There was no change in design with the chakra transfer to Kakashi.

I'm not saying Itachi can use Perfect Susano'o on Madara's level. Rather, I am saying that it'd be similar in design to his own V4 with the new visuals and better defensive ability.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 5, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> I don't need to refute anything. It's not canon.



Everything in the manga I told you is canon. It's not so difficult to put two and two together.

Likewise, it's not a stretch if that's applied to another Uchiha with Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It is quite simple actually. You are underrating Madara.



Which of the things I said isn't correct ? 

Other than Stamina, I don't see how he is superior to Itachi in anyway.



Alex Payne said:


> I also chuckled at "Madara doesn't have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi". How did he unlock Susano without both eyes having special moves?



The same way Obito, Shisui and Sasuke unlocked their Susano'O.


Neither of them had Tsukiyomi, only Sasuke had Amaterasu.

Madara should have unique MS abilities in both eyes, but so far we haven't seen what they were.



Kai said:


> Madara has both greater chakra reserves and potency compared to Itachi, as shown by the fact he can dish out the largest Katon produced by a lone shinobi.
> 
> It's not just the Complete Susanoo.



Alex says PS won't help against Madara or Tobirama. How does bigger katons help in that case ?


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## Bloo (Oct 5, 2015)

I don't understand why people are arguing over Itachi's Perfect Susano'o being cannon or not... I have to agree with the opponents to Itachi on that case because it isn't cannon, it's no different from Mecha Naruto from Revolution or Lars from Storm 2. However, I do believe Itachi's Perfect Susano'o would be the most powerful non-Rikudou rendition, if it still had the sacred weapons.

However, the release of these awakenings in the storm games should not impact Itachi and Shisui's placing in power tiers. It's not relevant to discussion of their manga power. It's perfectly fine to maybe argue with the _idea_ of these Perfect Susano'os by Itachi and Shisui being cannon, but it's important to note that they're not actually cannon.

Just my thoughts.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the only 2 who used are madara and sasuke with EMS.
> 
> Kakashi is exception because of Hago's chakra (and it being an asspull)
> 
> ...



Itachi never had to use it. 

Think about it, against Sasuke V4 was enough. 
Against Nagato, V4 was enough. 
Against Kabuto, he didn't even use V4. 

Itachi had PS all along mate, deal with it 

edit : 

TBH If kishimoto said this, it wouldn't be a bigger asspull than Minato's SM or Kakashi's PS.


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## ARGUS (Oct 5, 2015)

BM Naruto and EMS Madara are the weakest that beat him 

Sasuke gets high diffd 
Anyone below gets stomped


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## RBL (Oct 5, 2015)

Lol at people saying that itachi wouldn't be able to defeat hashirama or madara

Edo Itachi is already stronger than prime hashirama.



now imagine itachi with a perfect susanoo, he would be able to solo kaguya and his entire family at the same time.


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## LostSelf (Oct 5, 2015)

Madara.

I'm not of the ones that thinks Itachi is not the best Uchiha only because he didn't have EMS. Madara's the superior Uchiha overall (barring Godsuke).


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 5, 2015)

Truthfully, in the realm of Susano'os it really doesn't change anything because by comparison Sasuke, Kakashi and Madara would still have a better Susano'o than Itachi and that's only due to the rikoudo-based chakra. What this Perfect Susano'o does for Itachi, is that it makes other characters that would require hard or extreme difficulty fall to him without much difficulty.

*He can: *

1. Easily solo the Gokage
2. Outclasses any of the Edo Kage (if he hadn't done so before already)
3. Fight toe-to-toe with SM Kabuto (w/o ET), Minato, ET Madara, Hashirama. 
4. I'd rank him in the tier closest to the top with the four mentioned in #3.

Debates previously where it was highly debated or a truly 50/50 scenario easily end up being Itachi's favor. PS provides essentially an impregnable defense, something that Oonoki's Jinton couldn't properly disassemble. I don't see anyone short of individuals on Hashirama's tier being able to make a difference or fight evenly with him.

However, he still loses to anyone with Rikoudo Chakra, that includes: Sasuke, Naruto, Kakashi, Obito, Madara, Kaguya and whatever movie characters apply.


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## Matty (Oct 5, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He's really not a phenomenally written character. He has too many inconsistencies, gets too much character shilling, and was written as a trademark God Mode Sue played straight. He's constantly called a saint with the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7, and no one can say anyone negative about him even people who would be negative about him (like Naruto. Naruto should have gone: Its because of you Sasuke betrayed Konoha and jumped off the deep end! instad of what we go).




IDK I think his character is great. He is personally my favorite character along with Sasori. But I really wish he never became good. He could have been one of the greatest villains of all time if Kishi had some balls and just made him as badass as he should have been. He is THE ultimate badass

EDIT: should say "became good" I mean I wish he was never good. I wish he was just a heartless monster and a fucking badass lmao


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Truthfully, in the realm of Susano'os it really doesn't change anything because by comparison Sasuke, Kakashi and Madara would still have a better Susano'o than Itachi and that's only due to the rikoudo-based chakra. What this Perfect Susano'o does for Itachi, is that it makes other characters that would require hard or extreme difficulty fall to him without much difficulty.
> 
> *He can: *
> 
> ...



you're making the assumption that itachi will be able to hold the Susanoo for enough time to fight.
Which is not happening to begin with. 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> He said strongest range attack.
> PS doesn't count as a range attack.
> 
> 
> ...



- PS does count as a range attack obviously. And rated as such in the databook.
- So? How does saying it's the same as Jiraiya means he can't use it? It's just Jiraiya being before
him, so he will refer to him as such. Just like when Naruto complemented Tobirama for the FTG and
using his dad's jutsu, to which Tobirama corrected him...

- Because he is not that good with SM, and Narudo is better than him at it. That was made clear. 

- Except no such thing was mentioned before. If Kabuto fits that, then Minato fits even more
since the frogs's SM is the first to be introduced, and it was hinted since Pain Arc anyway.

but that's irrelevant and off-topic. 



Ryuzaki said:


> That's highly debatable because as well written as Itachi is Jiraiya is just as good if not better.



there is no comparison to be honest. itachi is one of the worst written characters actually, and the retecons after the others damages his character
severely.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 6, 2015)

Whether or not Itachi's perfect susanoo is canon?which it isn't?is immaterial to the context of this thread. The stipulation set was a purely hypothetical battle involving Itachi's purely hypothetical jutsu; him not having displayed it in the manga shouldn't have been involved in the discussion at all. Certainly not for over a hundred posts.

On that note, I'll also be locking the thread. It got derailed way too much and, having just spent the past ten minutes deleting posts, I'm not particularly optimistic about it either.


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