# War Arc Kakashi vs Kakuzu



## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 31, 2014)

This is Kakashi when he still had his Kamui eye, however, he can only use it defensively. Kakuzu has just killed Chouji and Kakashi is on a rampage like he was againts the swordsmen.

Distance: 40 meters
Location: War terrain
Knowledge: Kakuzu knows about Kakashi's Raikiri and Sharingan. Kakashi knows Kakuzu has tendrils and is tough.
Restrictions: Offensive Kamui
Mindset: Bloodlusted


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2014)

Kakuzu had Kakashi w/ Prep & Backup defeated, with Kakashi's only possible chance being an offensive Kamui (which is restricted here). So Kakashi looses here exactly the same way he did in cannon; masked beasts overwhelm him and he gets his heart ripped out.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 31, 2014)

That may be true.

However, Kakashi's chakra/stamina seems to have increased a great deal. On top of that, Kakashi wouldn't have to have waste two Raikiri on saving Shikamaru and Chouji, and he also wouldn't have to have wasted a Raikiri on Hidan, so his chakra reserves would be a lot higher than it was on the actual battle. Therefore, Kakashi's Kakashi could take other measures as what he used againts Pain and in the war, making Raiton bunshin to help him out. 

Not only that, but I made this Kakashi a lot more bloodlusted.

I'm not saying Kakashi wins this or not, I'm just saying its probably a lot closer than last time.


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## Sorin (Jul 31, 2014)

How can someone say that it plays exactly like in the manga when Kakashi has improved by leaps and bounds in stamina, has fought edo jins, has a few more jutsus up his sleeve and one who actually cut the bijuu cloaks like butter. 

Never mind the superior reaction and speed feats from the war.

You either have to hate Kakashi really bad, don't read the manga or trolling to say that.


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## Cognitios (Jul 31, 2014)

The only issue that Kakashi had last time was his lack of stamina, which has improved beyond all imagination since then.
He wins this mid-high diff.


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## Ghost (Jul 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakuzu had Kakashi w/ Prep & Backup defeated, with Kakashi's only possible chance being an offensive Kamui (which is restricted here). So Kakashi looses here exactly the same way he did in cannon; masked beasts overwhelm him and he gets his heart ripped out.



Except Kakashi has improved physically and has new Raikiri variants + Kamui mastery.


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## egressmadara (Jul 31, 2014)

Kakashi could avoid the tendril masks by going underground and get to kakuzu himself. And given the significant improvement in physical ability and additions in his Raiton arsenal, Kakuzu would not be able to hold his own alone. 

Otherwise, kakashi would get blasted with three to four of the masks coming at him. He does have Lightning Transmission in case he wants to severe all four of the monsters at once, but it's extremely unlikely he'll pull that off given how each of these monsters can shoot something that is beyond his ability to outrun.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2014)

Stamina literally had nothing to do with Kakuzu gaining the upper hand. Kakuzu gained the upper hand once and than thanks to Shikka's strat with Hidan, Kakashi had time to escape. Than Kakuzu gained the upper hand again. That's twice Kakashi on his own would have lost, and both times he had a considerable amount of stamina left in the tank, considering it's heavily implied that he had enough to still use Kamui and we even see him using 2 Rarikiri casually after that. 

Stamina was not issue. The issue was that Kakashi could not keep up with the number of attacks Kakuzu was utilizing against him. He could not deal with 3 (or even 2) masked beast while at the same time dealing with Kakuzu's main body (or the speed of Kakuzu's tendrils). This resulted in Kakuzu catching him with his tendrils twice.


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## Kai (Jul 31, 2014)

Kakashi and 6th Gate Gai took on three V2 jinchuuriki and performed well. 

Kakuzu blocked a physical blow from a fully transformed Nibi.

Kakashi's performance is supposed to mean what in comparison or regards to Kakuzu, exactly? I like the feat in of itself as much as the next guy, but what does it mean against Kakuzu?


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 31, 2014)

Kakuzu wins this high difficulty


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 31, 2014)

Kakuzu wins, he has more firepower & stamina.

his tactical advantages haven't diminished in the short time kakashi ain't seen him


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 31, 2014)

Without any weaklings to protect and increased stamina, Kakashi is definitely capable of defeating Kakuzu...even with no Kamui.

He'll just have to play a tactical game, but that's where the guy excels.


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## Sorin (Aug 1, 2014)

Kai said:


> Kakashi and 6th Gate Gai took on three V2 jinchuuriki and performed well.
> 
> Kakuzu blocked a physical blow from a fully transformed Nibi.
> 
> Kakashi's performance is supposed to mean what in comparison or regards to Kakuzu, exactly? I like the feat in of itself as much as the next guy, but what does it mean against Kakuzu?



I can ask you the same thing. What does Kakuzu blocking Nibi's strike mean when Kakashi actually bypassed Doton Domu with raikiri, a feat which apparently was too much for "fully transformed Nibi"?

And fully transformed Nibi? That's like saying Naruto beat a fully transformed Shukaku, when he took on a much weaker version of Shukaku with Gaara as a medium. That's far from full Nibi. Full Nibi would end Hidan and Kakuzu with one single bijuudama and call it a day.

The performance against the jinchirukis means that he has reactions and speed much improved. Those feats help him not get caught by Kakuzu's tendrils this time. That coupled with few other jutsus he didn't have in his arsenal like raikiri chain with clone, raibunshin and raikiri wolf for long range, not to mention infusing a simple kunai with raiton blasted trough a bunch of boulders like butter, means that Kakuzu is not beating Kakashi just like before.

More feats for chakra and stamina means that creating a few clones would not be an afterthought in Kakashi's mind. He would be more willing to create these clones.


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2014)

Sorin summed pretty much everything. Kamui-restricted War Arc Sharingan Kakashi would defeat Kakuzu mid diff.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2014)

Defensive Kamui pretty much guarantees he isn't hit for an extended period by anything he can't otherwise defend against by digging, bunshins, his Ninjutsu or his speed. 

Kakashi severes Kakuzu's legs pretty quickly with a bunshin feint, a couple thrown raiton kunai and a blindside dig and leg swipe with Raikiri - which would be leagues more effective than Naruto's 3 clone trick IMO.

Kakuzu has no knowledge Kakashi can use bunshins, dig or that he has defensive Kamui, he will definitely be killed here either via the above scenario or by Kakashi warping behind him to avoid an attack, and killing him with double Raikiri swipes before he realizes he's there.


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## Kai (Aug 1, 2014)

Sorin said:


> I can ask you the same thing. What does Kakuzu blocking Nibi's strike mean when Kakashi actually bypassed Doton Domu with raikiri, a feat which apparently was too much for "fully transformed Nibi"?
> 
> And fully transformed Nibi? That's like saying Naruto beat a fully transformed Shukaku, when he took on a much weaker version of Shukaku with Gaara as a medium. That's far from full Nibi. Full Nibi would end Hidan and Kakuzu with one single bijuudama and call it a day.
> 
> ...


Fair enough  +reps

But one thing. If that wasn't a fully transformed Nibi, then what else was it?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 1, 2014)

You can argue that Yugito was able to transform into a mindless raging Biju. Which is inferior to a proper controlled Biju Mode(like B). But it was still full Biju Form which Kakuzu+Hidan were able to off-panel without any stated/shown troubles. 

As for this match - War Arc Kakashi for some reason got solid boosts to speed and stamina. Showed Doryuheki, Raiton Hound, Raiton KB, Raiden, Raikiri Kunai and superior genjutsu. Ability to quickly use Kamui for both warping incoming attacks and warping himself away greatly helps with with defense(even though Kakashi can handle Kakuzu's offense without it, at least for a limited time). Assuming he would end in the same position as in their canon encounter(Kakuzu ready to rip his heart out) - Kamui warp into Kamuiland allows him to escape it without any damage, have some time to think and recover and then grants a free sneak attack. So yeah - Kakashi should take this handily due to powerful Raitons to counter Domu, defensive ninjutsu and speed to avoid Elemental Blasts and increased stamina that allow  liberal usage of bunshins and MS. Kakuzu gives him a high diff fight and Sharingan deterioration but eventually loses imo.

Oh


KyuubiYondaime said:


> Kakuzu has just killed Chouji and Kakashi is on a rampage like he was againts the swordsmen.


Missed that. Kakuzu is fucked.


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## Sorin (Aug 1, 2014)

Kai said:


> Fair enough  +reps
> 
> But one thing. If that wasn't a fully transformed Nibi, then what else was it?



Thanks.

First of all, i think only Madara, Hashirama, third mizukage and Bee were praised by Danzou of being able to perfectly control their beasts(until Naruto). Meaning that Yugito wasn't able to bring out the full power of Nibi. 

Secondly, i think that Yugito used Nibi much like Gaara used Shukaku before forcing himself to sleep. 

Another aspect is how would Hidan survive against Nibi and get blood to top it off with Yugito capable of bringing the full power of Nibi? Knowing both their powers that doesn't make sense to me. Hidan shouldn't be able to beat full Nibi imo. He shouldn't be able to scratch the beast.

Though that's just an opinion. Feel free to disagree.

EDIT: Wouldn't transforming into the bijuu kill Yugito? IIRC Naruto was on the verge of dying for releasing Kurama during the encounter with Pain/Nagato.

And as we know, a dead jinchiurki is just a useless corpse for the Akatsuki. On every occasion of Akatsuki hunting bijuu there is at least a panel stating that they need the host alive.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 1, 2014)

Each case is different apparently. Gaara was going full Shukaku several times - once when he was little kid and without Sleep Jutsu. Yet previous Hachibi Jin died when Guyuki broke free. It's Kishi.

As for Nibi vs Kakuzu and Hidan. Kakuzu's jutsu are strong enough to draw blood imo. And Hidan is durable enough to survive some biju-lvl smacking for a while.


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2014)

Excuse me, but:

1) Where is it indicated that Kakashi's speed increased. Orochimaru was keeping up with many attacks from V2-Naruto, and he has the same exact speed stat as Kakashi, less Sharingan's predictive bonuses. Base-Jiriaya also was obviously not Blitz stomped by V2-Naruto ether, and again he has the same speed stat as Kakashi, less the Sharingan's prediction capabilities (though he has Barrier Detection Method, but still not as good as Sharingan). Kakashi also kept up with Itachi who has a 5 in speed and Sharingan. Kakashi was always very quick, so what the heck did he do that was so drastically above his Wind-Arc incarnation Speed/Reaction-Time wise...

2) Where is it indicated that the Jutsu Kakashi showed after the Wind-Arc were ones he just mastered. They could have, and most likely were, one of the 1K Jutsu he already had mastered before the Wind-Arc. Especially since we saw no indication Kakashi was training to master new Jutsu or that he had copied new Jutsu. So seriously what is the justification for asserting these are new Jutsu?

3) People pretending that Kakashi Kamui warping to Box-Land and back, is something he can do casually is absolutely absurd. Sure maybe with War-Arc Kamui he could escape Kakuzu's tendrils by warping to Box-Dimension and back, but that's 2 Kamui uses, and if he uses that in tandem with say a Rarikiri. That's already a large amount of chakra and strain on even War-Arc Kakashi; and at best it would take down 1 of Kakuzu's hearts. He'd literally have to pull off 10 Kamui and 10 Rarikiri to use that type of assault to down Kakuzu. Something War-Arc Kakashi can't do, stamina-wise, and that's assuming he's successful every time. 

The amount of fanfiction justification for Kakashi winning here is absurd.


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## JuicyG (Aug 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Excuse me, but:
> 
> 1) Where is it indicated that Kakashi's speed increased. Orochimaru was keeping up with many attacks from V2-Naruto, and he has the same exact speed stat as Kakashi, less Sharingan's predictive bonuses. Base-Jiriaya also was obviously not Blitz stomped by V2-Naruto ether, and again he has the same speed stat as Kakashi, less the Sharingan's prediction capabilities (though he has Barrier Detection Method, but still not as good as Sharingan). Kakashi also kept up with Itachi who has a 5 in speed and Sharingan. Kakashi was always very quick, so what the heck did he do that was so drastically above his Wind-Arc incarnation Speed/Reaction-Time wise...
> 
> ...





I completely agree with you here sir.

Although I would still give Kakuzu the win, it would be Extreme-Diff


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I completely agree with you here sir.
> 
> Although I would still give Kakuzu the win, it would be Extreme-Diff


I'm fine with the interpretation that it would be more difficult, but the other stuff is ridiculous. With that said I personally think it would be the same degree of difficulty. While Kakashi has improved he also doesn't have Team 10 or Prep here. It should not be under-reported that both times Kakuzu lost a heart before Naruto arrived was due to Team 10's efforts and Kakashi's. First time was due to the staged ambush giving Kakashi a clear shot for Rarikiri and the second time was due to Shikkamaru using his Hidan strategy with the blood Kakashi provided. Without Team 10 and prep i'm not sure Kakashi would have been able to take down any hearts before resorting to Offensive Kamui, back then; at most thought it would have been one. So a now improved Kakashi I'd grant him taking out 2-Hearts on his own, before being overwhelmed.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 2, 2014)

Turrin, he doesn't need to kill the hearts, beheading or mutilating Kakuzu's body with Raikiri would disallow reanimation.


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## Santoryu (Aug 2, 2014)

> :
> 
> 1) Where is it indicated that Kakashi's speed increased. Orochimaru was keeping up with many attacks from V2-Naruto, and he has the same exact speed stat as Kakashi, less Sharingan's predictive bonuses.




The form Oro fought was only using 4 of it's tails. Meaning that it was, at most, using less than half of it's power and chakra. While by comparison, the other Jinchurriki were using all of their tails (just like Bee's V2 Cloak), and you bringing up Orochimaru's lack of Sharingan is mitigated by the fact that the V2 Jins were equipped with a Sharingan and Rinnegan each-their movements were efficient enough to outmaneuver Bee and Naruto. Since they were using all of their tails, that means the chakra that envelopes them should be more potent than Kyubi's chakra at only 4 Tails. Not only that, but they had total control over their abilities and were not mindless raging beasts. 



> Base-Jiriaya also was obviously not Blitz stomped by V2-Naruto ether, and again he has the same speed stat as Kakashi, less the Sharingan's prediction capabilities (though he has Barrier Detection Method, but still not as good as Sharingan).


Same thing applies. 



> Kakashi also kept up with Itachi who has a 5 in speed and Sharingan.


He kept up with him briefly, it was a taijustu orientated clash, an area that Kakashi is skilled in.



> Kakashi was always very quick, so what the heck did he do that was so drastically above his Wind-Arc incarnation Speed/Reaction-Time wise...


It was noted in part 1 he was extremely "out of shape"; this is a Shounen series and Kakashi is one of the main characters. Since part 1 Kakashi's speed has been praised by the likes of Obito, Pain etc 

What did he do you ask? I could take feats literally and say he paralleled 6th gated Gai's speed but nah I don't think he's that fast, that did prove however he's fast enough to land hits on the Jinjuriki. 



> 2) Where is it indicated that the Jutsu Kakashi showed after the Wind-Arc were ones he just mastered. They could have, and most likely were, one of the 1K Jutsu he already had mastered before the Wind-Arc. Especially since we saw no indication Kakashi was training to master new Jutsu or that he had copied new Jutsu. So seriously what is the justification for asserting these are new Jutsu?



Kakashi noted he was working on "new jutsu". And whether or not he had access to them back then is irrelevant, he didn't showcase them back then-fact is that Kakashi's chakra, either that or his ability to use jutsu with enough precision to not was as much chakra has increased substantially. Thought the main thing is that he's able to utilize the Sharingan's abilities for days on top of chakra taxing jutsu. 

You know as well as I do Kakashi started worrying mid way through that battle against Kakuzu after 4 Raikiri's merely because of the drain it had on him, Kakashi is no longer hindered by this. And need I remind you that he also had to contend with  Hidan in the first part of the fight and simultaneously evaded their attacks?



> 3) People pretending that Kakashi Kamui warping to Box-Land and back, is something he can do casually is absolutely absurd. Sure maybe with War-Arc Kamui he could escape Kakuzu's tendrils by warping to Box-Dimension and back, but that's 2 Kamui uses, and if he uses that in tandem with say a Rarikiri. That's already a large amount of chakra and strain on even War-Arc Kakashi; and at best it would take down 1 of Kakuzu's hearts. He'd literally have to pull off 10 Kamui and 10 Rarikiri to use that type of assault to down Kakuzu. Something War-Arc Kakashi can't do, stamina-wise, and that's assuming he's successful every time.



That's a presumptuous thing to say, Kakashi's Kamui usage is pretty much insane now. And these  DB stats shouldn't be taken literally, not to mention their outdated; are you telling me that Asuma is as fast as Sasuke and Kakashi?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## FlamingRain (Aug 2, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> The form Oro fought was only using 4 of it's tails. Meaning that it was, at most, using less than half of it's power and chakra. While by comparison, the other Jinchurriki were using all of their tails (just like Bee's V2 Cloak), and you bringing up Orochimaru's lack of Sharingan is mitigated by the fact that the V2 Jins were equipped with a Sharingan and Rinnegan each-their movements were efficient enough to outmaneuver Bee and Naruto. Since they were using all of their tails, that means the chakra that envelopes them should be more potent than Kyubi's chakra at only 4 Tails. Not only that, but they had total control over their abilities and were not mindless raging beasts.



Way to misrepresent the event.

Bee and Naruto fought more Jinchūriki simultaneously than Kakashi and Gai did; it was 6 to 2 for them instead of 3 to 2 like it was for the sensei duo. Edo Yugito and Yagura only managed to strike Naruto when he was pre-occupied with blocking Fū from another direction, while Bee (who was already a hulking Eight Tails instead of his much more nimble human self) caught Utakata in his hand and Han transformed into a full Tailed Beast after Roshi spewed out a wave of lava (aka their movement had virtually nothing to do with their achievements).

And your comparison to the Kn4 that Orochimaru fought neglects the fact that the Kyūbi is so massively far beyond each of the other Tailed Beasts _collectively_ that 4 tails of its Chakra would still place it well beyond any of the Edo Jinchūriki seen in the Fourth Great Ninja War, and feat-wise it's more dangerous too.


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## Mercurial (Aug 2, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Way to misrepresent the event.
> 
> Bee and Naruto fought more Jinchūriki simultaneously than Kakashi and Gai did; it was 6 to 2 for them instead of 3 to 2 like it was for the sensei duo. Edo Yugito and Yagura only managed to strike Naruto when he was pre-occupied with blocking Fū from another direction, while Bee (who was already a hulking Eight Tails instead of his much more nimble human self) caught Utakata in his hand and Han transformed into a full Tailed Beast after Roshi spewed out a wave of lava (aka their movement had virtually nothing to do with their achievements).
> 
> And your comparison to the Kn4 that Orochimaru fought neglects the fact that the Kyūbi is so massively far beyond each of the other Tailed Beasts _collectively_ that 4 tails of its Chakra would still place it well beyond any of the Edo Jinchūriki seen in the Fourth Great Ninja War, and feat-wise it's more dangerous too.



But you are conveniently forgetting that Kakashi and Gai fought full transformed Six Tails and V2 Two Tails, Three Tails, Five Tails and Seven Tails for an extended time holding their own perfectly without resorting to Mangekyo Sharingan or 7th Gate.


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## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Kakuzu  gets mid diffed

Kakashi can Kamui any attack that poses a threat  and is fast enough tp  cut up the  dollies with lightning chain


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> The form Oro fought was only using 4 of it's tails. Meaning that it was, at most, using less than half of it's power and chakra. While by comparison, the other Jinchurriki were using all of their tails,


4-Tails of Kyuubi is still well above them. The raw-power of 50% Kurama was taking on the Schibi, Rokubi, Gobi, Sanbi, and Nibi at once. Given that 1/4 it's power would still be above the V2 incarnations of these Bijuu, some of which it would potentially be above them even when they are full transformed. This also coincides with feats, where KN4's feats are vastly superior to those of the V2 Jinchuuriki that Obito was utilizing. Let's also bare in mind that nothing says Jiriaya and Orochimaru couldn't react to attacks from higher-level V2 Jinchuuriki. And than there is also all the people reacting to V2 (KN6) Gin/Kin to consider.

Additionally as previously stressed Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi, who in turn kept up with KCM-Naurto. KCM-Naruto kept up with then V2-Jinchuuriki, so long as he wasn't completely doubled teamed. Kakashi also given their history, obviously was able to keep up with Gai enough that he was not blitz'd ether, with Gai being a CQC monster and having roof-tier physical stats. 

Kakashi has always been this fast. His recent displays may push the boundaries of that, but it does not exceed them. Someone who can keep up with CQC monsters like Gai and keep pace with Itachi, can believably not be fodderized by berserk formless V2-Jinchuuriki instantly. 




> and you bringing up Orochimaru's lack of Sharingan is mitigated by the fact that the V2 Jins were equipped with a Sharingan and Rinnegan each-their movements were efficient enough to outmaneuver Bee and Naruto.


There is absolutely no sign that they were using Sharingan and Rinnegan when in V2 Form. And your own argument discounts that they were. 

After-all you just said that even in 1-Tail they were able to outmanuever Bee and Naruto, with Rinnegan and Sharingan. Yet when they advanced to V2, Naruto is keeping up with them fine. If they had really retained those powers than the V2 Jin would have been completely untouchable and trolled all over Kakashi, Base-Gai, and KCM-Naruto. 

And let's also bare in mind that Kakashi specifically says they aren't using any Pain abilities, because the drain on Obito would be too great for something they have already developed counters for. Shared Vision is definitely a Pain ability. 



> He kept up with him briefly, it was a taijustu orientated clash, an area that Kakashi is skilled in.


And Kakashi also kept up with the V2 Jins briefly. Not that I think how brief it was matters, as Kakashi clearly showed the ability to react to Itachi's speed in both of their encounters (that includes P1)



> It was noted in part 1 he was extremely "out of shape"; this is a Shounen series and Kakashi is one of the main characters. Since part 1 Kakashi's speed has been praised by the likes of Obito, Pain etc


It was noted in the Wave-Arc that he was out of shape. Than we saw him training during the Chuunin exams arc and we saw his stats rise in DBII. Than we never heard of the out-of-shape stuff again. Instead after the time-skip he said he improved as a Shinobi, not got back to his former abilities. So nowhere does it indicate that even post DBIII (where his speed stat is the same as DBII) that he is still trying to get back into shape. 

Again nothing indicates he was training his speed. In-fact Zabuza was still keeping up with Kakashi in the war-arc to the same extent he did in the wave-arc, that alone should tell you Kakashi's speed never dramatically increased.



> Kakashi noted he was working on "new jutsu". And whether or not he had access to them back then is irrelevant, he didn't showcase them back then-fact is that Kakashi's chakra, either that or his ability to use jutsu with enough precision to not was as much chakra has increased substantially. Thought the main thing is that he's able to utilize the Sharingan's abilities for days on top of chakra taxing jutsu.


I guess he also just learned Raiton Flow because he never showed it back then. Kakashi always shows new techniques every battle, that is part of his character being someone who mastered 1,000 Jutsu. His stamina did increase, but that has nothing to do with the issue I was pointing out.



> You know as well as I do Kakashi started worrying mid way through that battle against Kakuzu after 4 Raikiri's merely because of the drain it had on him, Kakashi is no longer hindered by this. And need I remind you that he also had to contend with Hidan in the first part of the fight and simultaneously evaded their attacks?


Kakashi in the war arc inexplicably worried because he used 1 KB, even though he then went on to do tons of other stuff. I wouldn't take Kakashi worrying seriously.



> That's a presumptuous thing to say, Kakashi's Kamui usage is pretty much insane now. And these DB stats shouldn't be taken literally, not to mention their outdated; are you telling me that Asuma is as fast as Sasuke and Kakashi?


It's not so insane that using 2 Kamui back to back wouldn't weaken Kakashi. And Kakashi has never used Kamui 10-Times period. This is not based on DBIII, it's based on his actual performance in the war. Kakashi collapsed on the ground and need time to recover after his 4th Kamui. So basically he uses the teleport to box world and teleport out to ambush someone attack twice and he's leaves himself wide open to be finished off. So that's 2 Hearts he could take out that way, leaving Kakuzu to kill him after that.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 2, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> But you are conveniently forgetting that Kakashi and Gai fought full transformed Six Tails and V2 Two Tails, Three Tails, Five Tails and Seven Tails for an extended time holding their own perfectly without resorting to Mangekyo Sharingan or 7th Gate.



They only fought 3 of the V2 Jinchūriki, and the period of time was hardly extensive. After a few brief exchanges they got tail-whipped back and Utakata transformed, which sent them flying because it destroyed the ground.

Saiken's gas is a lot less dangerous than Kn4's Chakra projectiles, too.


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## Mercurial (Aug 2, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> They only fought 3 of the V2 Jinchūriki, and the period of time was hardly extensive. After a few brief exchanges they got tail-whipped back and Utakata transformed, which sent them flying because it destroyed the ground.
> 
> Saiken's gas is a lot less dangerous than Kn4's Chakra projectiles, too.



Actually after Kakashi sliced through the chakra arms of the V2 and Gai repelled Six Tails' corrosive gas, they started fighting them off panel, but without using their best (Mangekyo Sharingan for Kakashi and 7th Gate for Gai), you are referring to the first fast exchange when Kakashi and Gai counterblitzed them landing hits with Raikiri and Gated taijutsu, but after where pushed back and the fight stopped.


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## Amol (Aug 2, 2014)

Kakashi wins. Kakashi improved quite a lot since both of them met last time .


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## Zexion~ (Aug 2, 2014)

With Kamui Kakuzu needs intel 

Without it Kakuzu stomps every time its canon :|


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Turrin, he doesn't need to kill the hearts, beheading or mutilating Kakuzu's body with Raikiri would disallow reanimation.






Shikkamaru, Ino, and Kakashi all agree that the five hearts need to be destroyed to defeat him. Kakashi had Rarikiri back then.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm fine with the interpretation that it would be more difficult, but the other stuff is ridiculous. With that said I personally think it would be the same degree of difficulty. While Kakashi has improved he also doesn't have Team 10 or Prep here. It should not be under-reported that both times Kakuzu lost a heart before Naruto arrived was due to Team 10's efforts and Kakashi's. First time was due to the staged ambush giving Kakashi a clear shot for Rarikiri and the second time was due to Shikkamaru using his Hidan strategy with the blood Kakashi provided. Without Team 10 and prep i'm not sure Kakashi would have been able to take down any hearts before resorting to Offensive Kamui, back then; at most thought it would have been one. So a now improved Kakashi I'd grant him taking out 2-Hearts on his own, before being overwhelmed.



Turrin, saying you believe Kakuzu would still win it is fine, but saying Kakashi didn't improve is just wrong.

For what ever the reason Kishimoto suddenly decided to make Kakashi stronger in the war, the same way he made Deidara and Sasori weaklings in the war, he can do that.

He doesn't have to say it, cause some random comment without any logical explication wouldn't be logical. I mean, it's not logical, but it what makes the most sense.

Kakashi, like others have stated, kept up with V2 Jinchuriki and a 6 gated Gai. Keeping up with 6 Gated Gai is a huge feat considering 7 gates Gai was around EMS Madara level, and 8 Gates Gai is Juubidara level, that is why people are saying Kakashi could stand a chance.

The Kakashi that had a small skirmish with Sasuke would stumble from just one Kamui use, while the Kakashi in the war had to use 3 Kamuis in a row to even feel any trouble, *after* having fought the swordsmen and using a clone and Raikiri and Raikiri chain, and who knows how many jutsus he used before againts the swordsmen.

Obviously, I restricted offensive Kamui because we know he could beat Kakuzu with it considering Obito and Madara both had to save the Gedo Mazou from it, and even Madara admitted "they have someone with a good eye on their team too", complements he would never give to Kakuzu, as Madara spent chapters talking crap of people like Raikage, Onoki, Gaara saying they were weaklings, while he praised Kakashi there.

Hell, even Minato in this war has trusted Kakashi enough to let him handle things here, and trusts in his abilities. And Zetsu admitted Kakashi and Minato were very powerful. At the same time, so did Naruto praise Kakashi, and even.

Kakuzu is someone who died 300 chapters ago, againts a Base Naruto who is much weaker than the current Base Naruto, and whose only purpose was showcase Naruto's growth back then, and now Naruto since then got Sage Mode, KCM, BM, BSM and now Hagoromo's powerup, so forgive me and the others who believe Kakashi stands a decent chance at defeating someone like Kakuzu at this point of the manga, even if Kishi hasn't said it, but practically shown it.

I mean, do you honestly believe, even without offensive Kamui, that Kakuzu could even hold a candle in this war? I mean Kakashi has being fighting up there with Minato, Gaara, Gai. And notice I don't hold Kakashi without offensive Kamui at the highest of levels, but Kakuzu isn't that high either. I saw you saying how he has chances of beating current Gaara or even drawing with SM Jiraiya, and those to me are crazy thoughts. Kakuzu got trashed in the war pretty bad or not, excuses or not. If he's supposed to be anywhere near SM Jiraiya or Gaara level he would have put up a better fight.

I mean Gaara would rape Darui and the two fodders that were with him, which were what, chuunin level?

I mean, when you think about it. Those two fodder that were with Darui were pretty weak before, to the point Kakuzu raped them without his masks,  yet the second time, with Darui's help, they were pushing Kakuzu out, without the masks, and Darui was tired as hell from fighting the Kingin bros, so don't give me that. So they obviously got stronger.

Heck, Kankuro, whose plot importance is literally 0 got stronger since the beginning of Part 2 to the War where he fought Sasori.

Sure, like those fodders he probably can't beat Sasori by himself. But with the help of some weaklings like Sai and Omoi like you said, Sasori got beat, and its pretty obvious in that fight that Kankuro got stronger, even Sasori commented it.

So how come Kakashi, someone we saw since chapter 3 of the manga, can't get stronger since he fought Kakuzu and now?

I mean, the whole "Hatake Kakashi is gonna go on a rampage" situation in the war seemed to me, like Kishi's way of getting Kakashi stronger without having to explain why. And then we have Kakashi and Gai wanting to keep up with guys like KCM Naruto in the war, and I'd say they'd do pretty good, especially Kakashi by doing his best.

IMO, Kakashi also made many errors in that fight with Kakuzu, errrors he doesn't necesarily will make 10 times out of 10.

So to me, Kakashi doing a lot better againts Kakuzu is actually a fact.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2014)

@KyuubiYondaime

Your entire post is a troll considering I never said he didn't improve. Try trolling elsewhere. Oh  BTW about Zetsu


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @KyuubiYondaime
> 
> Your entire post is a troll considering I never said he didn't improve. Try trolling elsewhere. Oh  BTW about Zetsu



I don't even remember what the bet was. If you refresh my memory and you truly won, I'll do my part of the bet.

You were saying bthat at best the best you see Kakashi doing is taking 2 hearts out. That means to you Kakuzu would still win it with less than mid difficulty since its not even half way through Kakuzu's hearts.

While its true that Kakashi got the jump in on Kakuzu with the first heart, after that, Kakuzu pretty much had help and circumstances on his side. Kakashi wasted a Raikiri on Hidan and Kakuzu managed to get the heads up on Kakashi with a kick, which is fine, but he still lost a Raikiri to Hidan, and if he wasn't attacking Hidan, he probably would have had his guard up for anything Kakuzu could have done.

Then, Kakuzu blatanly uses Hidan as a way to get to Kakashi, like a coward, taking full advantage of Hidan's inmortality as was stated in the manga. Then, Kakuzu attacks the kids, and Kakashi, instead of being an ass like someone like Sasuke would do, he went and protected those Chuunin level Shinobi that were with him, that againts Kakuzu didn't do anything to help, and went on to waste 2 more Raikiri, instead of going and taking out a heart of Kakuzu.

By this point, Kakashi's chakra was already probably at 50%, something that in the war would have only tickled him, so he didn't necessarily use the same tactics he did in the war, like using clones.

Using clones and whatnot would have given the fight a complete other scenario, which could have ended either worst or better for Kakashi, but if we go by the war feats, probably a lot better.

Kakashi could use the Raikiri chain with his clone to take out more than one mask at a time, actually. 

In conclusion, using battledome logic to say since he lost the first time he'd lose this time around almost certainly is just a bad logic to use since the battle could have gone a completely different scenario.

And you mentioned how Shikamaru saved him from Kakuzu using Hidan, but Kakashi could have used Kamui there to blow Kakuzu's head away, and I don't honestly believe Kakuzu can fight with his head in Kamui land. If he could, he wouldn't be able to see, so he'd be shooting attacks randomly and missing. *So hell, if Shikamaru hadn't assisted him, it might have being worst for Kakuzu.* Thats not necesarily true, but its a possibility you can't ignore.

You mentioned how early Part 2 Kakashi kept up with Itachi, saying since he did that, his speed didn't necesarily increase in the war. And this is just blatantly wrong. That was a shouten clone, it wasn't even Itachi's all body at all. That guy didn't have the Uchiha strong body, so how can he be as fast as Itachi? And he only had 30% of chakra, we know that chakra/power boosts people up tremendously. Hell, you were speaking great things of a chump like Sakura because she got a chakra boost.

You also mentioned how Jiraiya wasn't blitzed by KN4 Naruto, does Kishi send you offpanel fights? Cause I saw Jiraiya laying on the ground with his chest opened and bleeding, Jiraiya admitting it was one of the times in his life where he has being near death, the other being when Tsunade punched him. I don't think Jiraiya really "kept up" in speed department with KN4, thats just insane. *Maybe in Sage Mode, but Base Jiraiya has not suggested anything to be able to not be blitz by KN4 Naruto.* And he was in Base when he was shown, and wouldn't have had the time to enter Sage Mode anyway.

Orochimaru "keeping up" with KN4 is another proof of how Oro is probably above Base Jiraiya, but even if thats false, it holds absolutely no candle to how Jiraiya fared.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> You were saying bthat at best the best you see Kakashi doing is taking 2 hearts out. That means to you Kakuzu would still win it with less than mid difficulty since its not even half way through Kakuzu's hearts.


Depends how you define difficulty. I define losing two 2 quality hearts as about Mid difficulty, not less.



> While its true that Kakashi got the jump in on Kakuzu with the first heart, after that, Kakuzu pretty much had help and circumstances on his side. Kakashi wasted a Raikiri on Hidan and Kakuzu managed to get the heads up on Kakashi with a kick, which is fine, but he still lost a Raikiri to Hidan, and if he wasn't attacking Hidan, he probably would have had his guard up for anything Kakuzu could have done.


The kick didn't do anything to Kakashi in the long run and loosing a Rarikiri didn't matter ether as Kakashi still had chakra in the tank when Kakuzu had him defeated twice later on. And the times Kakuzu had Kakashi defeated was after Hidan had already been removed from the fight by Shikkamaru.



> By this point, Kakashi's chakra was already probably at 50%, something that in the war would have only tickled him, so he didn't necessarily use the same tactics he did in the war, like using clones.


Do you have anything to assert Kakashi was at 50%, anything at all



> Using clones and whatnot would have given the fight a complete other scenario, which could have ended either worst or better for Kakashi, but if we go by the war feats, probably a lot better.


Even in the war Kakashi does not like to use clones frequently. We saw him use 2 clones total and both were for short bursts of Raiden. A forward running attack like Raiden isn't doing anything to Kakuzu whose Fuuton Atsugi Jutsu would simply hard counter.



> And you mentioned how Shikamaru saved him from Kakuzu using Hidan, but Kakashi could have used Kamui there to blow Kakuzu's head away, and I don't honestly believe Kakuzu can fight with his head in Kamui land. If he could, he wouldn't be able to see, so he'd be shooting attacks randomly and missing. So hell, if Shikamaru hadn't assisted him, it might have being worst for Kakuzu. Thats not necesarily true, but its a possibility you can't ignore.


It is a possibility I can ignore in this thread, because Kakashi's offensive Kamui is restricted



> You mentioned how early Part 2 Kakashi kept up with Itachi, saying since he did that, his speed didn't necesarily increase in the war. And this is just blatantly wrong. That was a shouten clone, it wasn't even Itachi's all body at all. That guy didn't have the Uchiha strong body, so how can he be as fast as Itachi? And he only had 30% of chakra, we know that chakra/power boosts people up tremendously. Hell, you were speaking great things of a chump like Sakura because she got a chakra boost.



"Of course, the techniques used by the copy are the same as those of the original person. Even the pride of the "Uchiha clan," the "Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique"**, can be flawlessly reproduced!!"

Kakashi also kept up with Itachi in Part I



> You also mentioned how Jiraiya wasn't blitzed by KN4 Naruto, does Kishi send you offpanel fights?


Nah I just have common sense. If KN4 was just blitzing all over Jiriyaa he would not have won. And Jiriaya has the same speed stat as Orochimaru who was reacting to KN4 attacks.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 3, 2014)

Itachi was owning Kakashi in part 1 without any difficulty. Kakashi was not keeping up.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi was owning Kakashi in part 1 without any difficulty. Kakashi was not keeping up.


Kakashi was keeping up until Tsukuyomi


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi was keeping up until Tsukuyomi



No he wasn't. He was struggling to stay alive againts a Itachi that was not bloodlusted Itachi. Itachi was barely trying. Thats why when Itachi *was* trying he kept up with KCM Naruto, and avoided a blindside attack from Killer Bee.

Unless you believe Part 1 Kakashi is as fast as Killer Bee, KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto. This is when Itachi showed how good he really was, and was just toying around with Kakashi.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 3, 2014)

There is no way he will be a le to take out 5 Hearts. His Jutsu have a very limited range, Raikiri won't be enough to get him the win here.


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## Ashi (Aug 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> No he wasn't. He was struggling to stay alive againts a Itachi that was not bloodlusted Itachi. Itachi was barely trying. Thats why when Itachi *was* trying he kept up with KCM Naruto, and avoided a blindside attack from Killer Bee.
> 
> Unless you believe Part 1 Kakashi is as fast as Killer Bee, KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto. This is when Itachi showed how good he really was, and was just toying around with Kakashi.



So he resorted to using a MS Technique he knew would drain him so he could toy with him


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> No he wasn't. He was struggling to stay alive againts a Itachi that was not bloodlusted Itachi. Itachi was barely trying. Thats why when Itachi *was* trying he kept up with KCM Naruto, and avoided a blindside attack from Killer Bee.
> 
> Unless you believe Part 1 Kakashi is as fast as Killer Bee, KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto. This is when Itachi showed how good he really was, and was just toying around with Kakashi.



Sage Kabuto's speed comes from his danger sensing like Sage-Naruto, I.E. Sennin Modo-Sensing. His actual foot speed is not augmented drastically by Sennin Modo. That's what Itachi kept up with, I.E. a straight forward charge. When Kabuot was dodging around using sensing it took Itachi and Sasuke in tandem using Susano'o just to hit him.

And yes I think Kakashi could keep up with KCM-Naruto (not using Shunshin and having his chakra split 13 ways) and Base-B (though ultimately being forced back). The guy is only a half a point away from roof tier in Tai and Speed; than he has Sharingan and countless years of exp. Even an injured Sasuke was able to keep up somewhat and he's not nearly as good as Kakashi in Taijutsu or as experienced and did I mention he was injured.


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## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Way to misrepresent the event.



Not really.




> Bee and Naruto fought more Jinchūriki simultaneously than Kakashi and Gai did; it was 6 to 2 for them instead of 3 to 2 like it was for the sensei duo. Edo Yugito and Yagura only managed to strike Naruto when he was pre-occupied with blocking Fū from another direction, while Bee (who was already a hulking Eight Tails instead of his much more nimble human self) caught Utakata in his hand and Han transformed into a full Tailed Beast after Roshi spewed out a wave of lava (aka their movement had virtually nothing to do with their achievements).


Except Kakashi and Gai were contending with their V2 forms right off the bat; Bee and Naruto were getting overwhelmed* before
* they even transformed. And even then, Kakashi and Gai did end up *fighting all of them*, hence the beasts eventually fully transforming and surrounding the masters; sure some of it was off-panel, but the fact they lasted as long as they did despite being exhausted is due to prior battles is impressive.

There's also a panel of both Kakashi and Gai holding off the beasts and successfully ripping through the corrosive cloak that surrounded them; a feat not even  Orochimaru with the sword of kusanagi could achieve. We don't need an explicit statement saying Kakashi and Gai fought all of them, because the panels provided in the manga are evident enough. 



> And your comparison to the Kn4 that Orochimaru fought neglects the fact that the Kyūbi is so massively far beyond each of the other Tailed Beasts _collectively_ that 4 tails of its Chakra would still place it well beyond any of the Edo Jinchūriki seen in the Fourth Great Ninja War, and feat-wise it's more dangerous too



Now obviously Kyuubi is by far the strongest Junjiriki, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest the version that Orochimaru contended with is superior to the Jinjuriki that Kakashi and Gai dealt with. Conversely, their treatment of Bee/Naruto suggests they are better combatants than the version Oro did battle against.

Turrin-chan I'll reply to you later.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 5, 2014)

Kakashi can bring up the mist if need be and that and Lightning running beast would be a great attack.


Also a raiton clone(something Kakashi didn't show against Kakuzu) would prove very valuable in taking Kakuzu out by stunning him.

I would say Kakashi 6/10 extreme difficulty. Because Kakashi would be able to battle on his own and not have to babysit a bunch of genins that were getting their shit stomped in.


I don't know that it would be a tough fight. Kakuzu isn't a weak opponent by no means and I hold him in high regard based on his ninjutsu prowess.


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