# Franklin Richard(full potential) vs. Living Tribunal



## Havoc (Jan 18, 2006)

Is it possible that ol' Franky can win?


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## Id (Jan 18, 2006)

Well, Dr. Strange has stood up to him. And F. R. at full potential = unlimited potential to alter reality. In theory he is around Galactus fully powered, but I doubt he is around 

Phoenix Force
Original Byonder
LT.


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## The Transporter (Jan 18, 2006)

Well, to my understanding, Living Tribunal<=God, as they enatc the "One and Only's" will, however, Franklin is kinda like a "Mini" god, since he can create pocket universes 

So, I revert to the old, one-sided explanation.

"MY House, MY Rules".

Living tribunal takes it ^_^

Now, if this was held in a Pocket universe of Franklins...

-Simon


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## Havoc (Jan 18, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well, Dr. Strange has stood up to him. And F. R. at full potential = unlimited potential to alter reality. In theory he is around Galactus fully powered, but I doubt he is around
> 
> Phoenix Force
> Original Byonder
> LT.




He is above Galactus.  He makes Galactus look like a child.


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## Gooba (Jan 18, 2006)

FR is so powerful that he can become Galactus if he wanted to, or even more.  However, LT is just above all of them.  Even IG Thanos is less than LT.


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## Id (Jan 18, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> He is above Galactus.  He makes Galactus look like a child.




Thats what I meant by Galacuts level.

Eternity, Full Power Galactus, Infinity. He is around that level.
But I doubt he is at 

Phoenix Force
Original Byonder
LT.

Who can be considerd True Cosmics or Super Cosmics whatevery you want to call them.


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## Tousenz (Jan 18, 2006)

I am just a cosmic cube. An incomplete one at that.

No not totally cosmic mind you... just a thing with consciousness.


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## Insipidipity (Jan 18, 2006)

Gooba said:
			
		

> FR is so powerful that he can become Galactus if he wanted to, or even more.  However, LT is just above all of them.  Even IG Thanos is less than LT.


But HotU could take him on no?


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## Gooba (Jan 18, 2006)

HotU>*, and this time it isn't an exagguration at all.


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## CABLE (Jan 18, 2006)

The Transporter said:
			
		

> Well, to my understanding, Living Tribunal<=God, as they enatc the "One and Only's" will, however, Franklin is kinda like a "Mini" god, since he can create pocket universes
> 
> So, I revert to the old, one-sided explanation.
> 
> ...



Basically what I was going to say.  That pretty much sums up this battle.


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## Rice Ball (Jan 18, 2006)

Living Tribunal > Thanos with infinity Gauntlet

Hes the step below 'god' and the judge of countless multiverses.

I'd say he would have a good fight against Eternity etc, i hope we don't see more of psi lord tbh, hes kinda OP, he should be able to defeat anything non godlike in a single thought.


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## unknowndanex (Jan 18, 2006)

if Franklin Richards posed a threat to LT, something would've been done a while ago.  LT makes sure there is a balance of power.  this is one battle i can route for a guy who i haven't seen fight.  FR can alter reality, but so can the IG and thats a small portion of the IGs capabilities, and LT>IG.


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## Id (Jan 18, 2006)

LT has limits to its power as well. I mean is LT>PF?


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## unknowndanex (Jan 18, 2006)

what do u mean by PF?


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## Id (Jan 18, 2006)

Phoenix Force.

If my memory serves me right PF serves just as important role as the LT does over governing the muliti-verse. I think PF has the power to destroy and re-create at a muliti-verse level.


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## unknowndanex (Jan 18, 2006)

not really, the phoenix force is just in short a big ball of massive cosmic psionic energy in the form of a phoenix.  LT is actually maintaining the cosmic balance which includes the phoenix force.  He oversees all the realities of the multi-verse.  that means he's governing 616, Earth-X, Ultimate Universe, What IF, etc etc.  There is no one other than the unknown superior he has that is more powerful.


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## pnoypridz (Jan 18, 2006)

who do u guys think will win 

franklin richards or scarlet witch


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## Havoc (Jan 18, 2006)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> who do u guys think will win
> 
> franklin richards or scarlet witch




Franklin Richards,  SW has altered reality but he can do so much more.


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## G. Hawke (Jan 18, 2006)

LT is just a couple of notches above FR i think.


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## lucky (Jan 19, 2006)

LT.  Doesn't he live outside the realm of order/chaos/time/space?  effectively, existing outside of 'reality'?  I might be wrong here...


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## Gooba (Jan 19, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> not really, the phoenix force is just in short a big ball of massive cosmic psionic energy in the form of a phoenix.  LT is actually maintaining the cosmic balance which includes the phoenix force.  He oversees all the realities of the multi-verse.  that means he's governing 616, Earth-X, Ultimate Universe, What IF, etc etc.  There is no one other than the unknown superior he has that is more powerful.


And the HotU.  Thanos with it absorbed the LT into himself.


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## Arilou (Jan 19, 2006)

The HOTU is actually the power the LT's superior used. Thanos just absorbed the P0w4h! (the owner of the HOTU had left, because there was something he wanted done and he didn't want to do it, so he gave it to Thanos instead to make him do it)


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## unknowndanex (Jan 19, 2006)

thanks arilou, i was tryin to remember something about LT's superior


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## Id (Jan 19, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> not really, the phoenix force is just in short a big ball of massive cosmic psionic energy in the form of a phoenix.  LT is actually maintaining the cosmic balance which includes the phoenix force.  He oversees all the realities of the multi-verse.  that means he's governing 616, Earth-X, Ultimate Universe, What IF, etc etc.  There is no one other than the unknown superior he has that is more powerful.




X-men forever says that the abstracts are replaced every creation cycle and that the Phoenix controls the cycle therefore it co-ordinates this process and remains a constant throughout. it brings about the end and the beginning in the natural scheme of things. 

That is why the Stranger sought the power.

Galactus' creation currently was brought about by Phoenixes actions. This example was used in the series and it said that humanity will one day evolve into the abstracts/cosmic forces like Galan did previously with Phoenix making this possible.

humanity will evolve to replace the abstracts down the line, that its something that happens every creation cycle.

It states that Phoenix is the power that controls this cycle. Stranger calls it the resurrection force. "The assurance of life after death" for reality.

So the abstracts are reflections of reality. Whilst their slots can be re-allocated and usurped the Phoenix Force is a constant throughout keeping the cycle going on forever Big bang after Big Bang

Eternity is the opposite of Death with Galactus the balancing force between them. Phoenix is not an abstract, it is a force that makes reality possible. The abstracts are reflections of the universe and the slots they occupy can be usurped and re-allocated at anytime during a creation cycle. In fact its canon that at the end of every creation cycle the abstracts are replaced by an evolved humanity just check out X-men Forever for details. Phoenix is the Force that keeps the process going on forever and ever. It is a constant, bringing Big Bang after Big Bang and crunch after crunch (wherein all that is , is absorbed into the M'kraan crystal)


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## RAGING BONER (Jan 19, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Phoenix Force.
> 
> If my memory serves me right PF serves just as important role as the LT does over governing the muliti-verse. I think PF has the power to destroy and re-create at a muliti-verse level.


the Pheonix force is the end result of an Omega level mutants power,
its' ultimate evolutionary expression if you will...its the sole reason humanity was created.


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## Spacey (Jan 20, 2006)

I think LT takes this. But FR is indeed powerfull just maybe not on LTs level.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

~BONER~ said:
			
		

> the Pheonix force is the end result of an Omega level mutants power,
> its' ultimate evolutionary expression if you will...its the sole reason humanity was created.




No Phoenix force is more like a cosmic entity that requires a host. 
Franklin Richards or Nathaniel Grey/Summers are better examples of true omega level mutants that can become or rival a cosmic entity.

Jean or Rachael are destined (some what) to wield the Phoenix Force, Since the PF is capable of choosing its host.
It seems that in order to be a host of the PF, one must be a 
high level psychic, and some other requirements that haven?t bin brought up yet.



			
				Spacey said:
			
		

> I think LT takes this. But FR is indeed powerfull just maybe not on LTs level.



What makes you say that?
PF has the its serves its purpose the way LT does, beyond the scope of power that Eternity, Infinity, Galatctus, Death, etc?.

According to X-men Forever during each creation cycle ?LT? and the abstracts get replaced by an evolved humanity. Phoenix is the force which co-ordinates and fuels this process and it keeps the creation cycle going on forever Big Bang after Big Bang. While the abstracts are reflections of the universe and their roles can be usurped and re-allocated at any time during the creation cycle Phoenix is a constant throughout. - 





			
				5807894 said:
			
		

> _Originally posted by GalacticStorm _
> *
> 
> Some people stubbornly doubt LT is caught up in the process and try to claim he isnt the being who is drawn in the series. Heres the source and background info page:
> ...


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

GalacticStorm does a good job explaining PF feats, power, and its role in th MU.



			
				5807896 said:
			
		

> _Originally posted by GalacticStorm _
> *In X-men Forever Stranger found out about this destined replacement and decided to try and access the Force via Jean in order to bring it about prematurely and on his terms. He would use the power to speed up the evolution process, collapse reality, but protect himself during the turnover allowing himself to emerge in the new reality as the supreme being.
> 
> To help him bring this about the Stranger infiltrated the systems of Prosh the Celestial Ship (Prosh served as X-factors transport in the past so Stranger knew they’d trust him) and programmed him to gather Jean and a group of mutants who represented key features of this evolutionary process. Prosh however was loyal to his mutant friends and tried to help them out by sending them through time to key points in history in an effort to warn them of the Strangers plans. Something he couldn’t do directly because of the programming:
> ...


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

The rest as GalacticStorm explains the force behind the PF


			
				5807904 said:
			
		

> _Originally posted by GalacticStorm _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Is thier anymore question about how powerfull  Franklin Richard can become. Whe he can reach that level of power. And what role the PF holds.


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## Havoc (Jan 20, 2006)

How come Phoenix couldn't defeat Onslaught if the wielder of the PF could "humble" LT?


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> How come Phoenix couldn't defeat Onslaught if the wielder of the PF could "humble" LT?



That goes under PIS/CIS. And the blame for PF losing to "O" goes to Jean not being able to fuel enough power to beat "O".


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

That series contradicts information given in numerous other places concerning the LT: He is *not* a part of this universe or it's cycle of creation/destruction but a being that exists in *every* universe. He regulates balance not just in this universe but between this universe and the others. So unlike Eternity/Infinity (who is the embodyment of the universe and hence dies and is reborn with every universe) he remains the same. The stranger claims to be the Fourth Face of the Tribunal.... But the Stranger claims a lot of things  


And as pointed out, the Phoenix Force is limited to acting through a host (much like the Spectre) which means it is somewhat limited. (Even Dark Phoenix could be destroyed if her physical body was, thus rendering the PF unable to interfere directly) Now, destroying something with that level of power is no easy task in itself 

IIRC the hosts of the Phoenix force has been:
Jean Grey
Madelyne Pryor (very briefly, and it's verry complicated) Jean's clone.
Rachel Summers (now Grey)
Emma Frost (very briefly during Phoenix: Endsong) 
So yes, a high level of psychic talent seems useful.


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## unknowndanex (Jan 20, 2006)

LT is someone who is control over every single marvel universe, meaning he is charge of maintaining the balance in 616, Ultimate, Squadron Supreme's  universe, etc etc etc.  That is not the case with the PF, PF actually falls under LT's jurisdiction in maintaining the cosmic balance of power due to the fact of needing a host and its powers actually relying on the powers of the host.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> LT is someone who is control over every single marvel universe, meaning he is charge of maintaining the balance in 616, Ultimate, Squadron Supreme's  universe, etc etc etc.  That is not the case with the PF, PF actually falls under LT's jurisdiction in maintaining the cosmic balance of power due to the fact of needing a host and its powers actually relying on the powers of the host.



I understand what you mean, you already stated that. But you haven?t posted any proof, or reliable source that claims LT>PF.

As a matter of fact when has LT ever judged the actions of PF in the 616 time line in the MU?


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> I understand what you mean, you already stated that. But you haven?t posted any proof, or reliable source that claims LT>PF.
> 
> As a matter of fact when has LT ever judged the actions of PF in the 616 time line in the MU?



My understanding is that they are the same "class" of beings (though not neccessarily of the same rank) Not quite simple universal abstracts but something more.

Hunger (from the Thanos miniseries) seems to be a weaker variant of the same class of beings (If LT is a mammoth Hunger is a rat )

EDIT: Though the fact that LT is described as the Second-Highest being in all the universes ought to be a hint.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Incidentally Endsong proves that it's rather easy to damage/befuddle the Phoenix Force (the Shi'ar could do it! Breaking it's normal lifecycle! Though killing it would of course be a different matter)


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> My understanding is that they are the same "class" of beings (though not neccessarily of the same rank) Not quite simple universal abstracts but something more.
> 
> Hunger (from the Thanos miniseries) seems to be a weaker variant of the same class of beings (If LT is a mammoth Hunger is a rat )
> 
> EDIT: Though the fact that LT is described as the Second-Highest being in all the universes ought to be a hint.




Thats the point I wanted to establish. PF=TL.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

But the Phoenix is still a much *weaker* being. It can be restrained (if only for a short time) it can be *hurt* (if not actually destroyed) We've never seen anything affect the Living Tribunal the same way.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Incidentally Endsong proves that it's rather easy to damage/befuddle the Phoenix Force (the Shi'ar could do it! Breaking it's normal lifecycle! Though killing it would of course be a different matter)



After a while, every Cosmic falls victim of rectom. I mean look at LT being challenged by Dr. Strange or Krovac.



			
				5808094 said:
			
		

> _Originally posted by GalacticStorm _
> *LT attacking Korvac with his "ultimate punishment" and then fleeing the universe and sealing it off after it flopped:
> 
> 
> ...



But PF has saved the MU in a multi - verse scale, were the M?kran crystal was about to collapse and realease its energies, causing a catastrophic explosion that places ?Everyone? (Asgardians, Byonders, Humans, Cosmics etc..)

It was PF who recharged the M?kran crystal power avoiding the destruction.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe


Superhuman Powers:
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings. In it's natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force. However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existance. The Force can wield this energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching it's destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.

While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

POWER GRID
Intelligence = 7 (Omniscient)

Strength = 7 (Incalculable: In excess of 100 tons)

Speed = 7 (Warp Speed: Transcending light speed)

Durability = 7 (Virtually indestructible)

Energy Projection = 7 (Vitually unlimited command of all forms of energy)

Fighting Skills = 1 (Poor)

REAL NAME: Inapplicable

KNOWN ALIASES: Chaos-Bringer, Starchilde, Phalkon, formerly Dark Phoenix, Black Queen, Phoenix, Jean Grey

IDENTITY: Secret

OCCUPATION: Celestial elemental; (while possessing a host) adventurer

CITIZENSHIP: Inapplicable

PLACE OF BIRTH: Big Bang

KNOWN RELATIVES: Inapplicable

GROUP AFFILIATION: None; (as Phoenix) formerly X-Men, New Your Hellfire Club (Inner Circle)

EDUCATION: Inapplicable

FIRST APPEARANCE: X-Men #101 (1976)


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

HISTORY:
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still cooling planet. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth 616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.

In time, the Force’s pain subsided and it discovered that it was unable to return to its natural state. Hundreds of years later, the Force learned that the universe would come under threat from manipulation of the M’kraan Crystal – a hypercubical nexus of realities – by the mad Shi’ar Emperor D’Ken. To prevent this, the Force sought an avatar through which it could act and so return to Earth, seeking out Feron. Instead, the Force encountered Jean Grey, a member of the heroic mutant X-Men team, whose mind the Force had touched earlier. Grey was dying from the effects of solar radiation while piloting a damaged space shuttle. The Force appeared to Grey and offered to save her. She accepted, and so the Force created an exact duplicate of her body for itself, into which it transferred a portion of her consciousness. The Force then sealed her comatose body inside a healing cocoon, and after the shuttle crashed into Jamaica Bay near New York City, the Force emerged from the waters, calling itself Phoenix. The X-Men believed it to be the real Jean Grey, having died and returned to life with vast new powers. Phoenix and the X-Men opposed D’Ken, who exposed the universe to the tremendous gravitational forces contained within the Crystal’s core. Phoenix entered the Crystal and repaired the stasis field, thus saving the cosmos. Phoenix continued to serve as a member of the X-Men, but ultimately its human form was unable to cope with the Forces immense power. At first, Grey’s strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind). Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Force’s primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix. Due to the limitations of its physical form, Dark Phoenix hungered for more energy and transported itself to the star D’Bari, absorbing all the energy from it. As a result, the star turned supernova, annihilating one of its planets. Dark Phoenix destroyed a Shi’ar starship which had attacked it in retaliation for the D’Bari’s deaths, then returned to Earth where it was opposed by the X-Men and Professor Xavier. He reinforced Grey’s personality, allowing Phoenix to reject its cosmic power.

The Shi’ar still judged it necessary to obliterate Phoenix’s powers entirely, lest it become Dark Phoenix again. The X-Men fought the ruling in a trial by combat against members of the Shi’ar’s Imperial Guard in the Blue Area of Earth’s moon, but during the battle Phoenix reverted to Dark Phoenix. Realizing that is could never fully retain control, Phoenix acted as the real Grey would have. Before the eyes of a horrified Cyclops, it committed suicide by telekinetically triggering an energy cannon, disintegrating its mortal shell. Later reflecting on its folly, the Force sought to undo the damage it had done by returning the life-force it had taken from Grey. On its return to Earth, it sensed the astral form of the time-traveling Rachel Summers, the daughter of Earth-811’s Jean Grey. After returning Grey’s missing life-force, which was instead received by Grey’s clone Madelyne Pryor, the Force followed Rachel back to the future of Earth-811. There, it revealed itself to Kate Pryde, who asked the Force to give Rachel a new lease on life. The Force agreed and took Rachel as its host, supercharging her ability to time travel and causing her to physically travel back in time to Earth-616. Rachel was unaware that she hosted the Force’s essence until she took on the codename Phoenix. The Force then bonded to her fully and ensured that Rachel could only access as much power as she could safely wield, having learned from its past mistake. Adventuring with Rachel and the British super-team Excalibur for a time, the Force ultimately encountered Necrom’s Anti-Phoenix. After a cataclysmic battle, Rachel was destroyed in the blast. The Force gathered her shattered psyche and restored her body, promising Excalibur to protect and nurture her until she fully healed. Through Rachel’s eyes, the Force was able to experience the simple beauty of existence. In space, it encountered the world-devourer Galactus, who revealed to the Force the nature of its existence. Tormented with the knowledge that its desire to explore humanity had prevented generations of life from being born, the Force fled. Rachel reentered the timestream and emerged some 2,000 years into the future of Earth-4935. There, she encountered Diamanda Nero, daughter of that era’s mutant despot Apocalypse, and, in order to defeat her, was forced to purge herself of the Force.

Free again, the Force traveled back into the past, drawn once again to Earth-616. En route, it was transported to the Ultraverse (Earth-93060) by a sentient alien starship that had crashed-landed there eons ago. Buried deep within the Earth, the ship sought to reunite itself with it’s twin trapped within Earth’s sun, and intended to use the Force’s energy to power the recombination. Impaled on a lance of energy that linked the two ships, the Force fought back and managed to free itself, though not before the ship was able to bond them empathetically. Wounded, the Force sought out a host to protect it as it healed. Inhabiting the body of the superstrong hero Prime, the Force was opposed by the X-Men and Prime’s teammates in UltraForce. Exhausting Prime’s physical form, the Force found another host in Amber Hunt, who had privously been possessed by the ships’ essence. The heroes were able to free Hunt from the Force, after which they took the fight to the ship, severing its link to the Force. Seeking revenge, the Force attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet. The heroes were able to drive the Force into another portal, and it emerged four billion years in the past. Unleashing vast energies while transmigrating itself through time and space, the Force inadvertently (and ironically) caused the damage to the ship that forced it to crash-land to begin with.

The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a Shi’ar device that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell to Earth and sought out Cyclops to use his mutant optic power to heal itself. To that end, it searched for Cyclopss love Jean and, finding her dead, resurrected her to house its power once more. Opposed by the X-Men again, the Force was lured into possessing the body of Cyclops new love Emma Frost before Jean was able to reassert control. The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find it’s other pieces.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

It should also be pointed out that the Phoenix Force actually died in an alternate universe.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

That article actually doesen't give the PF much credit (not compared to the LT's entry which says something to the effect of "There is nothing the LT is not capable of in carrying out his duties."

And of course, you know the Korvac story was a What-If, right? And that when he was challenged by Dr. Strange the good doctor broke free not by force but because the LT simply didn't bother keeping the spell renewed. (own that particular issue, which I believe is the LT's first appearance)


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> It should also be pointed out that the Phoenix Force actually died in an alternate universe.




True.

It should be pointed out  band of cosmics had no way of deffending them selfs agianst Byonder (secret wars 1 & 2) this included the so called 2nd highest being LT.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> True.
> 
> It should be pointed out  band of cosmics had no way of deffending them selfs agianst Byonder (secret wars 1 & 2) this included the so called 2nd highest being LT.



Actually I don't believe the LT was involved at all in the Secret War (at least no the first one) Galactus was, but not the LT.

EDIT: I know nothing of #2 though.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

ok, well see for your self.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Actually.... The idea that he is the strongest in that room doesen't come from any of the Cosmics themselves. (and given how the Beyonder has been shown as being relatively weak... Yes, it's a retcon, but it works, it seems the most logical explanation is that they are simply letting him have his way) 

Heck, Thanos was able to fight the Beyonder. He's not so though


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Actually.... The idea that he is the strongest in that room doesen't come from any of the Cosmics themselves. (and given how the Beyonder has been shown as being relatively weak... Yes, it's a retcon, but it works, it seems the most logical explanation is that they are simply letting him have his way)
> 
> Heck, Thanos was able to fight the Beyonder. He's not so though



Most people would agree that 

Pri-Crisis Superman> Current Superman.
Pri-Rectom Beyonder> Current Beyonder.

And the events that took place before being rectom, are held as true feats.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Id: There is a difference though.

COIE isn't a "retcon" per se: It's simply a world-altering event.

Superman is re-created with different powers, but it's not really "retroactive" in that sense. 

The Beyonder's "nerfing" is a true retcon though: The Beyonder wasn't de-powered, it was simply stated he was never as powerful as everyone thought.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Id: There is a difference though.
> 
> COIE isn't a "retcon" per se: It's simply a world-altering event.
> 
> ...



But why would the writers go to such lengths to rectom/nerfing a character?

Simple, they were made to powerful.

That?s what happened to Superman, Phoenix, Byonder etc..and the methods to do such thing is just their way of justifying their rectom/nerfing. 

Am I wrong or right?


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> But why would the writers go to such lengths to rectom/nerfing a character?
> 
> Simple, they were made to powerful.
> 
> ...



Not really.
While retcons usually results in nerfs there is a minor difference 
A nerf is genrally just a depowering (in the case of COIE they rebooted the entire universe, but it's still "in continuity", all the pre-crisis stuff still happened.... The universe was just re-made and different stuff happened there)

A ret-con (it stands for "retroactive continuity" usually brings in some new info for something *that has already happened in-continuity* Essentially saying "That wasn't what happened *this* was." The ret-con means that whatever happened *never did so in the first place*

See the difference? The Beyonder was *never* as powerful as they thought he was (I believe they actually said "That stuff about him blowing up galaxies? Yeah, that's an illusion.")


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## Tousenz (Jan 20, 2006)

Thats what I beeeeeeeeeeeen saying. No one listened =/


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Any how. The only point I am tring to make is that
PF- is the Primal Force of the Universe. Her powers extend to crushing and recreating the MU at a 
mulit-verse scale. PF has bien known to intervene when the MU is in the threat of  collapse. That?s her role in the MU.

LT - Is the Judge, Jury, and Executioner to maintain the balance of power. This includes stoping characters from becoming to powerful. But has not bien known to destroy and recreate at a mulit-verse scale such as PF. Or intervene in PF work.

That?s why I find them as equals.

If you want to prove me wrong, show me proof.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

I must add that ret-cons are usually a shitty way to write stories  But sometimes when they're well-done they can be fun.


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

I did a quick google on Living Tribunal vs. Phoenix force, the consensus seems to be that LT>PF.

(The simply fact that it's flat-out stated that the only thing stronger than the LT is the being he serves/HOTU ought to count for something though). 

But it seems amazing, but I don't think the two has ever actually met.... Mostly this is because the Phoenix Force is almost always a solely X-men thing, and the Tribunal doesen't make that many appearances.

But seriously, the PF seems to be (in general) several orders of magnitude lower. (the fact that it needs to, y'know, feed and do all sorts of stuff like that is a big downer for it) It has important stuff to do "between universes" but otherwise it seems way to vulnerable to be given status comparable to the LT (the only time in-continuity he's been even *affected* by anything was the damn HOTU!)


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Actually I take my claim one step further. I have posted sources and scans that PF>LT, in were when the PF decides to crush and re-create the all of MU (even the cosmics) are replaced. Essentially even the LT can be replaced with FR. The same PF decided that Galan would survive the Big Bang and become a cosmic entity Galactus.

What keeps the PF completely dominating the LT?
Its host can not tapped to such high level of power at will. (well it has with the  M?Kran saga) 
This is what balances out the PF=LT. 

And no the LT hasn?t stopped any of the hosts of the PF if it thought it was a threat to the balance of power. (just wanted to make note of that.)


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Yep. But that can be taken in two ways A) That he cannot B) He does not, because they are not a threat/their actiivites are a "natural" part of the balance and thus not something the LT need interfere with at all. 

And your scans doesen't prove anything at all, really, because it doesen't show the potential of the LT (which it must be stressed, again and again and again, is on a different level from Eternity and Death and their companions) The Phoenix can indeed restart the universe. Well, that's not really a big deal. The Godess was able to do destroy "all there is" using just a few Cosmic Cubes. (actually she almost did but Thanos stopped her.... )

Also, the difference seems to be mainly one of *roles* phoenix is a creator/destroyer, she deals with the *world* the LT really doesen't, he deals with other cosmic powers, and can strip them of their powers basically at will (like he did with the Infinite Gems) heck, given how easy it is to harm the phoenix he could probably just sever it from it's host, declare the M'krann crystal inert and let things get on with their lives.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

The host of the PF can be damaged and killed even under the influence of the PF. 
But the PF its self will never die. 
The PF will simply will itself back to existence and search for a new host.

LT has never shown to be able to wield the power of the PF. Or even judge it.

And feat wise.  (their best known.)
LT - has disassembled the IG. That was a threat for  balance of power in the MU. No other known force has bien able to do the same or intervene the actions of the I.G.

PF - has stopped the destruction of the MU via M?Kran crystal. Were if the crystal is unstable and would have destroyed all of the MU. No other force has bien known to stop or intervene the actions of M?Kran.

LT- Is the judge of the to maintain the balance of power among all comics as well as lesser MU characters. It would seem that PF falls under this as well but I have yet to see proof. (canon wise)

PF- Is the Primal Force, or  co-ordinates and fuels this process and it keeps the creation cycle going on forever Big Bang after Big Bang. This includes re-assigning positions that current cosmic entities hold now to other being. LT seems to fall under this as well, but direct confrontation as not bien seen as of yet. (canon wise)


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

No, LT does specifically *not* fall under this: He is *not* re-created after each Big Bang (like Eternity et. al.) That's because he's a multiversal cosmic, not just a universal one.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> No, LT does specifically *not* fall under this: He is *not* re-created after each Big Bang (like Eternity et. al.) That's because he's a multiversal cosmic, not just a universal one.




But, PF recreates at a multi- verse scale. And I have given proof that PF is a league above all other cosmics, (except for the TOAA, HOTU, LT)
(as of right know Im placing LT & PF as equals)


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## Arilou (Jan 20, 2006)

Seriously, just check out Endsong (it's the latest "phoenix story" so it's most authoriative) the Shi'ar managed to actually bring the phoenix out of it's "rebirthing process" against it's will.

Doesen't sound too impressive to me.


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## Id (Jan 20, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Seriously, just check out Endsong (it's the latest "phoenix story" so it's most authoriative) the Shi'ar managed to actually bring the phoenix out of it's "rebirthing process" against it's will.
> 
> Doesen't sound too impressive to me.



Its not impressive at all. I can compare that to the time Dr. Strange stood up to LT twice! 
Not impressive at all. But ill tell you what is impressive about the PF.

PF existed before 616 obviously . It created Eternity who would in turn trigger the Big Bang the creation of the new universe, it?s release from the cosmic egg and bonded Galactus to the cosmic egg after having protected him from the death of the old universe.


Alright here is a scan that claims that PF is 2nd only to the creator.
Uncanny X-men 137


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## Arilou (Jan 21, 2006)

> I can compare that to the time Dr. Strange stood up to LT twice!



Have you even read that issue? The LT ignored him. (Strange's actual words where "a spell forgotten is a spell wasted" or something to that effect) 



> PF existed before 616 obviously



So did LT.



> it?s release from the cosmic egg and bonded Galactus to the cosmic egg after having protected him from the death of the old universe.



Actually that is not the case. At least not according to 90% of the other information (according to this it was the Old Universe's Eternity which protected Galen of Taa and turned him into Galactus) 

That was the origin that was re-stated during the latest FF story-arc with Galactus.

To make it further more complicated:

A) There is only one Living Tribunal in all of the multiverse. 
B) There obviously is more than one Phoenix Force. Because it *died* in Havok's weird-ass alternate universe (the one with the Vampire Storm)
C) Galactus is the only thing supposed to have survived the previous universe.
D) What If? So not exactly canon but during "What if X-men Lost Inferno (what If? #6)" the LT arrives to judge the earth, only the PF purges the earth of demons first, so he doesen't have to.. The Phoenix obviously accpets the LT's judgement. Heck, the text repeatedly uses worlds like "The Tribunal will not allow..." 

It also holds the Phoenix in the palm of it's hand, I don't think there's any doubt who is the superior in that relationship


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## Rice Ball (Jan 21, 2006)

Lets not get into which Omnipotent being is > than another Omnipotent being 



> A) There is only one Living Tribunal in all of the multiverse.


True, unlike eternity and the other cosmics, theres only one LT in the Marvel Multiverse.
Very few people in the marvel prime universe move to different universe.


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## Arilou (Jan 21, 2006)

Actually it's pretty common. Excalibur (the old team), Exiles, several X-men, the Fantastic Four and the Avengers has done it numerous times.


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

Well these were a what if as well am I correct. And I guess we aren’t counting them, as actual feats.




If not their was an occasion in a “What If” comic were PF did beat Eternity,

Or the time when all of the comics were in their knees when PF, arrived.

Don’t get me wrong I understand what you are telling me. And both LT and PF have at one point bien  some what contradicting in their rank in power.

The only point I am stating, is that PF is above the rest of the cosmics the same way LT is, second only to TOAA or HOTU.

The LT has never judged the PF in a canon time line, for the same reason that it serves a purpose as high as the LT. The difference is that PF requires a host to give it its touch in reconstructing the universe. Its more or less a requirement. While the LT only judges and does not need a host or an avatar.

I don’t really care what other ppl post about the PF or the LT most of the time because, they never did look into the concept and grasp what the PF purpose really is.

But I bet you for the few members that looked at this thread with the of the sources and scans, will now have a better idea of what PF is and capable of.


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

> Franklin Richard(full potential) vs. Living Tribunal
> Is it possible that ol' Franky can win?



To awnser this thread. Currently no.

Keep in mind that if FR, was to reach maximum potential, he would achieve a new state of evolution or the highest state were he no longer would be a simple human.

So unless an event were the MU multiverse was to be reconstructed and new cosmic entities were to be appointed  jobs to maintain the balance. FR could become the new Galactus or even a new LT. (possible by PF since its her job coordinate during the destruction/reconstruction)


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## Arilou (Jan 21, 2006)

> If not their was an occasion in a ?What If? comic were PF did beat Eternity,



Despite his claims to greatness Eternity ain't all that though  Thanos clones managed to incapacitate him. Dormammu defeated Eternity at one point as well. (not to mention the Magus)

LT is as far above Eternity as Eternity is above say.... Doug Ramsey.



> Or the time when all of the comics were in their knees when PF, arrived.



I've seen that happend to Eternity/Infinite/Order/Chaos/Love/Hate and that entire gang, but never the Living Tribunal. 



> The LT has never judged the PF in a canon time line, for the same reason that it serves a purpose as high as the LT. The difference is that PF requires a host to give it its touch in reconstructing the universe. Its more or less a requirement. While the LT only judges and does not need a host or an avatar.



The LT has never judged Spider-man either, does that mean Spider-man is as powerful as the Living Tribunal? 

The Living Tribunal is the top-dog among all Marvel's creations (save his mysterious superior/HOTU) His *job* is to judge other cosmics. (in fact I believe it has been stated that he judges "all there is, has been and will be." The Phoenix is not specifically excluded, therefor LT>PF.


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## Rice Ball (Jan 21, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Actually it's pretty common. Excalibur (the old team), Exiles, several X-men, the Fantastic Four and the Avengers has done it numerous times.



Exiles and Adam warlock were the only ones on my list


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## Spacey (Jan 21, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Id: There is a difference though.
> 
> COIE isn't a "retcon" per se: It's simply a world-altering event.
> 
> ...



That retcon was crap. It was only made because the writes superiors didn't like the Beyonder so they "nerfed" him. It's the biggest piece of crap ever made. And it holds nearly no logic to it

And you seem to like to contridict yourself.

First you said that PF got killed in alterante universe. 
Saying that it was vurneable

Then you said that Kovac thing was in What if, to make it seem less valid..


:S :S


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## Arilou (Jan 21, 2006)

Spacey said:
			
		

> That retcon was crap. It was only made because the writes superiors didn't like the Beyonder so they "nerfed" him. It's the biggest piece of crap ever made. And it holds nearly no logic to it
> 
> And you seem to like to contridict yourself.
> 
> ...



There is a tiny difference between a What If? And a regular alternate-universe story...

Y'see in the "Phoenix Force dies" story the actual 616 Havok was involved (the storyline was really crappy btw.) He travelled through an alternate universe where, among other things, the Phoenix force was killed, Storm was a Vampire and the Fantastic Four used tech-gadgets rather than having superpowers.

Technically the difference isn't that huge, as each What-If is supposed to take place in an alternate universe *anyway* (They've even got all the Earths numbered somewhere)

Take Exiles for example: Everything they do is canon... For the specific reality they visit. (Btw. had Phoenix just been a regular person that could have been written of as just a "alternate version is weaker" argument, but since Id claims the PF is multiversal in nature...)


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

> Take Exiles for example: Everything they do is canon... For the specific reality they visit. (Btw. had Phoenix just been a regular person that could have been written of as just a "alternate version is weaker" argument, but since Id claims the PF is multiversal in nature...)



You make it sound like Im just making stuff up.

Tell me thou, what do you think PF is, whats its role, and what rank would you give it?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 21, 2006)

...I know little about PF. But doesn't it say in The infinity saga  that the only being stronger then LT is the one above all ? Doesn't eternity and the combined cosmic council of beings, have to report to LT ?

And, doesn't Lt not get in fights with say people like eternity, etc because thier fight would end up destroying the universe?


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

The Philospher-Rel said:
			
		

> ...I know little about PF. But doesn't it say in The infinity saga  that the only being stronger then LT is the one above all ? Doesn't eternity and the combined cosmic council of beings, have to report to LT ?
> 
> And, doesn't Lt not get in fights with say people like eternity, etc because thier fight would end up destroying the universe?




Well can you answer me one question. 

From all I have posted, what do you think the PF is? 

And how would you rank PF compared to the other Cosmics?


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

> Originally posted by Arilou  that is not the case. At least not according to 90% of the other information (according to this it was the Old Universe's Eternity which protected Galen of Taa and turned him into Galactus)
> 
> That was the origin that was re-stated during the latest FF story-arc with Galactus.



Galactus' revised handbook entry. Off Hbk Fantastic 4 2005:


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 21, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well can you answer me one question.
> 
> From all I have posted, what do you think the PF is?
> 
> And how would you rank PF compared to the other Cosmics?



Well, from the image you posted of the watcher saying outright the phenix force only better is the one above all. That would have been evidence that the two are even. 

However, Arilou said that was a what if. And, given that he also said that in endsong,(haven't read it yet) phenix apparently has weakness, it seems like no matter how you slice it, Living tribunal would be able to triumph eventually. 

-And, as far as Living tribunal not being able to wipe stuff out... can't The Lt if he so chose end the universe in the blink of an eye. In the scan with Strange, strange said that he knows Lt could end everything if he wished. 

Moreover do you honestly need someone to say it outright. Thanos with the infinity Gaunlet could end the universe if he wanted, couldn't he?

-Way I see it Pf would be like the most powerful thing that is part of all universes, however Lt is the most powerful thing outside of even the universes. And then the one above all is basically everything in all forms of existance. 

Lt vs Pf would be a long fight probably and everything... literally would be destroyed but, Lt is without weakness. I say this because Tyrant, was a creation of Galactus but was a tough fight for him. Hence the created could not existed the creator. Much like Lt cannot exceed the one above all. Nor can pheonix exceed lt. And so forth and so on. But the fight would still be long and ardous.


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## Id (Jan 21, 2006)

I just wanted to point out one thing.

The watcher stating PF is second only to the creator is from Uncanny X-men 137. And is completely canon.

But the scan of LT vs Krovac is a what if event.


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## unknowndanex (Jan 21, 2006)

look at it like this, considering LT was the only one who could stop Thanos with the IG says a lot.  In actuallity the PF could have been affected by Thanos if he wanted to because the PF can actually be affected by other realities (reality gem), which is why in other realities, the PF is killed or it can be changed.  LT is not changed with any of the realities because he is judge and balance holder over all realities, its not just the multi-verse.  He's the same rather its 616, What If, Exiles, Squadron Supreme, they all fall under that same LT.

LT vs Krovac was What If? but that was the same LT u would see in any other reality as well.  In actuallity What If? is now canon, its just not in the 616 reality, it has its own reality.  Thats why there is no What If LT something.  But there can be What If the Phoenix Force..........?.


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## Id (Jan 22, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> A) There is only one Living Tribunal in all of the multiverse.
> B) There obviously is more than one Phoenix Force. Because it *died* in Havok's weird-ass alternate universe (the one with the Vampire Storm)



There is one Primal Force, it remains constant threw out the multiverse. Their are diff avatar or host for the Primal Force. It is true that the host can be damaged and killed. But the PF itself will never die and will reborn itself with no out side assistance or choose another host/avatar.

But in the 616 Jean, seems to be more than a just a host. No I take that back Jean has merged and become one with the PF, the way Thanos merged with HOTU.


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## Spacey (Jan 22, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> There is a tiny difference between a What If? And a regular alternate-universe story...
> 
> Y'see in the "Phoenix Force dies" story the actual 616 Havok was involved (the storyline was really crappy btw.) He travelled through an alternate universe where, among other things, the Phoenix force was killed, Storm was a Vampire and the Fantastic Four used tech-gadgets rather than having superpowers.
> 
> ...




Yes but the What If issues are technically not limited to their universe either. IT is stated that their are Marvel 717 and that LT has power over them as well. So no infact you are wrong.

You are just a person that cannot simply admit when you are wrong.


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## Arilou (Jan 22, 2006)

A few things:

The LT vs. Korvac wasn't actually even a battle. the LT annihilated Sol and when that didn't kill Korvac he basically said "I have other universes to protect, this one is obviously screwed" left the universe, locked the door behind himself and let it destroy itself.

This is part of his job: If one universe gets "unbalanced" he'll destroy it rather than let it imbalance other universes. (kind of like you might have to kill some of your roses if they get parasites) 



> But in the 616 Jean, seems to be more than a just a host. No I take that back Jean has merged and become one with the PF, the way Thanos merged with HOTU.



Yeah, that seems to be the case (or not, maybe *all* Phoenix hosts become like that...) What seems clear though is that the PF is clearly not bound by *time*. 

It should be noted that the LT has *also* been described as Second only to the creator (which caused someone to comment that they might be the same thing)

Someone pointed out that it takes *a lot* take unbalance things far enough for the tribunal to take action: Thanos killing half the universe and taking over Eternity's role wasn't even enough to make the LT notice.



> Galactus' revised handbook entry. Off Hbk Fantastic 4 2005:





> From all I have posted, what do you think the PF is?



I'd say the PF is the creative/destructive agent of the universe (she jumpstarts it and then ends it) but she's not actually the dominant force once the universe is actually *going*. (this is my little pet theory, might be faulty)

Let's put it in a nice schematic:

Eternity/Infinity is the universe itself (they represent the space/time continuum) and everything within it. They are dominant because they *are* the universe. Literally, the Universe is Eternity's body. (which is why he looks like he does) That doesen't mean he's all-powerful though (can you control every microbe in your body?) Still, he's the guy who takes care of what *is*.

Death is his sister, she takes care of what *isn't* any longer. The dead, the things that have been destroyed, etc. etc. It seems unclear whether or not she'll survive the end of the universe or not (from what I've read she'll at least *be there* at the End, gather things together, and then either fade away as well or simply wait for the next universe.

Galactus is the random factor between these two. He prevents there from being an equilibrium (and thus ending the universe) He's like a huge cosmic joker.

The Phoenix Force is the "start-engine" she destroys the universe when it's time has come and births it anew (It could be described as her killing Eternity and then making a new one) In some sense she is *possibility* what *might be* (rather than what *is* and what *has been*) She obviously can survive the destruction of universes as she's got to be there starting a new one.

The LT on the other hand is the *arbiter* As long as things are running smoothly he doesen't do anything, but when something goes wrong he's there to clear it up. If someone gathers enough power to be a threat to *creation as a whole* he'll destroy it: By closing the universe and destroying it from the outside if neccessary. Since his *job* is to deal with all the other cosmics and make sure they do their job correctly and don't mess up he's among other things got the power to strip them of theirs (just like he did with the Infinity Gems)

Or, as some guy put it:


> "He could even make Jay Leno funny."


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## Id (Jan 22, 2006)

Ok see how you view the PF.

I want to apologize for not being specific on what I was trying to prove. 

What I meant to say is the Primal Force the cosmic entity that powers all other hosts/avatars is equal in power and class to the LT. What I mean is not the Phoenix Force, in the sense that one human is chosen to wield the Primal Force, and manifest its self in the form of a Legendary Fire Bird. But the cosmic entity itself that was created by a higher being. And its not something LT can simply challenge Primal Force, were although they have different authorities, their power in class seem to be equal.

The thing that bugged me was if the Primal Force has the power to shape the MU at will, and point out new abstracts or cosmic entities, does LT fall under the category were she can simply choose some one else to do the job. And I see that Primal Force don’t. The only being that can undo LT or PF is the so called “Creator” or TOAA and possibly HOTU.

I believe the only time a host/avatar can come close to challenge the LT judgment is if the Host/Avatar merge and become truly as one; as the case with Jean where she became the White Crown Phoenix. (my own personal opinion thank you vary much.!)


I have posted instances were other comics acknowledge Primal Force power.

And frankly I have no more to prove or argue.


PS (I know that when  a human is given the power to wield such high end power, a lot of times there is going to be really high points, and really low points in the events of the comic were, such things should not even happen (similar to the Green Lanterns) But that’s just how comic books are in general.)


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## Spacey (Jan 22, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> A few things:
> 
> The LT vs. Korvac wasn't actually even a battle. the LT annihilated Sol and when that didn't kill Korvac he basically said "I have other universes to protect, this one is obviously screwed" left the universe, locked the door behind himself and let it destroy itself.
> 
> ...




You're not god.


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## Arilou (Jan 22, 2006)

> What I meant to say is the Primal Force the cosmic entity that powers all other hosts/avatars is equal in power and class to the LT. What I mean is not the Phoenix Force, in the sense that one human is chosen to wield the Primal Force, and manifest its self in the form of a Legendary Fire Bird. But the cosmic entity itself that was created by a higher being. And its not something LT can simply challenge Primal Force, were although they have different authorities, their power in class seem to be equal.



Yes, but my point is: The LT's task (his "sphere of influence" if you wish) is exactly to arbiter, to regulate the powers of everything else in the universe. 

He might not be able to create a new universe (creation isn't his thing) but he can block anyone else from taking any action. If neccessary by trapping them within the universe and destroying it "from the outside". 

To use a US analogy: The LT is the Supreme Court. If the definition of power is "X can do Y" then he's not all-powerful. If it is "X can prevent Z from doing Y" then he is.


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## Id (Jan 22, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Yes, but my point is: The LT's task (his "sphere of influence" if you wish) is exactly to arbiter, to regulate the powers of everything else in the universe.
> 
> He might not be able to create a new universe (creation isn't his thing) but he can block anyone else from taking any action. If neccessary by trapping them within the universe and destroying it "from the outside".
> 
> To use a US analogy: The LT is the Supreme Court. If the definition of power is "X can do Y" then he's not all-powerful. If it is "X can prevent Z from doing Y" then he is.




Hey and it took about 5 pages to come up to our conclusion. Not bad huh?


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## Arilou (Jan 22, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Hey and it took about 5 pages to come up to our conclusion. Not bad huh?



Heh. My point has always been: The LT might not be able to *do* everything (that's not his job) He can't create the universe.

*but* He can stop anyone else from doing stuff. He couldn't create a universe, but he could strip the PF of her powers. (just like any other cosmic being) because that's part of what he does.


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## Id (Jan 22, 2006)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Heh. My point has always been: The LT might not be able to *do* everything (that's not his job) He can't create the universe.
> 
> *but* He can stop anyone else from doing stuff. He couldn't create a universe, but he could strip the PF of her powers. (just like any other cosmic being) because that's part of what he does.




OK. 
But you agreed Primal Force and the Living Tribunal are in the same class of power yet you think LT can strip PF of their its power. 

You have yet to back up your claims.


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## Arilou (Jan 22, 2006)

It's mostly a logical thing.

Think of it like this: Phoenix is an engineer while LT is a judge. The a judge can punish an engineer in lots of ways (if he breaks the law) but he can't build a house. 

It's all with how you define "power". Lt's powers are entirely prohibitive/reactive and geared towards punishment. Phoenix's are creative/destructive (in the "destruction to make way for Creation" sense)

EDIT: The explanation for all this is that in recent years the X-men books has become so divided from the rest of the MU that they are almost their own universe. (I blame Christ Claremont) that very rarely interacts with the rest of the MU. Very annoying development IMHO.


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## shibigoku (Jan 22, 2006)

Franklin Richard could think he's the LT and they clash together for eternity. The things is LT can go back in time and undo FR while FR can't. So, LT wins.


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## Nybarius (Jan 22, 2006)

1) Congrats, Luckey, you've made yet another utterly retarded thread.




			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> And the HotU.  Thanos with it absorbed the LT into himself.



Arguably he just absorbed an M-Body of the Living Tribunal, not the LT himself.  Thanos only destroyed one universe, not the multiverse (consider the fact that he was unaware of Adam Warlock chilling in his dimension).  LT, presumably, would lose interest in judging the universe once it was destroyed. Still a KO for Thanos, but not necessarily a murder-death-kill.


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## Spacey (Jan 23, 2006)

Woah two people going at it for full...


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## Id (Jan 23, 2006)

> Originally posted by Arilou  that is not the case. At least not according to 90% of the other information (according to this it was the Old Universe's Eternity which protected Galen of Taa and turned him into Galactus)
> 
> That was the origin that was re-stated during the latest FF story-arc with Galactus.


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## Nybarius (Jan 23, 2006)

There's no inconsistency.  Taa made a deal with Eternity stating that Taa would live on into the next universe, but he had to assume a cosmic role.  The mechanism to achieve this was the big bang, aka the PF.


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## Id (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanx to the Manga Cult (and Cable) I was able to find a better pic of Jean PF.


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## Nybarius (Jan 24, 2006)

Hey Id, what's that from? I'm always interested in more info about The Stranger.  For instance, I've heard he's the missing fourth face of the Living Tribunal, but I'd like to hear more.

I'm also very interested in seeing Jack Kirby's "Celestial Quest" and his (incomplete) "New Gods" for DC.

It seems like he and Jim Starlin are the kings of mainstream cosmic happening comics.


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## Id (Jan 25, 2006)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> Hey Id, what's that from? I'm always interested in more info about The Stranger.  For instance, I've heard he's the missing fourth face of the Living Tribunal, but I'd like to hear more.
> 
> I'm also very interested in seeing Jack Kirby's "Celestial Quest" and his (incomplete) "New Gods" for DC.
> 
> It seems like he and Jim Starlin are the kings of mainstream cosmic happening comics.



From the six part mini series X-Man Forever.

But I know vary lil of the Stranger.

Ahy are you going to join the Cables Senior members OB debate contest. We only need one more contastant, and I would like for you to join.


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## Rice Ball (Jan 25, 2006)

Read the Early Adam warlock comics for some info about Stranger, he was once guardian of an Infinity Gem the first time Thanos tried to Destroy the universe using them (when he didn't realise there full power but instead made a weapon out of them)

Oh warlock owned him


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## Rice Ball (Jan 25, 2006)

Nybarius said:
			
		

> I'm also very interested in seeing Jack Kirby's "Celestial Quest"
> It seems like he and Jim Starlin are the kings of mainstream cosmic happening comics.



I got #1 and #2 from ebay, i'll try scanning them and uploading them, quality will be crap unless someone wants to help me tidy


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## Nybarius (Jan 25, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> I got #1 and #2 from ebay, i'll try scanning them and uploading them, quality will be crap unless someone wants to help me tidy



I'd be willing to help you tidy them up, I really appreciate it.  You know where to upload, right?  (ANTM "scandal" -- you can also e-mail to mangacult@gmail.com). 

Thanks again!

Also thanks for the Stranger info.


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## Id (Jan 26, 2006)

Here, Is jean reshaping the MU, in the palm of her hand. New X-Men.


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## pnoypridz (Jan 26, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> I got #1 and #2 from ebay, i'll try scanning them and uploading them, quality will be crap unless someone wants to help me tidy



i got celestials in queu right now so if i can dl it imma upload it in the cult


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## Rice Ball (Jan 27, 2006)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> i got celestials in queu right now so if i can dl it imma upload it in the cult



ah cheers, you don't wanna see the mess i made


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## Arilou (Jan 27, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> From the six part mini series X-Man Forever.
> 
> But I know vary lil of the Stranger.
> 
> Ahy are you going to join the Cables Senior members OB debate contest. We only need one more contastant, and I would like for you to join.



The Stranger is one of the (deliberately) most confusing characters in the MU, I believe he has *at least* 5 different origins and possible positions in the universal hierarchy, and no one knows which one is true. Since he (kind of) seems to be an incarnation of disorder and an upsetter of balance this seems very fitting (he's also a habitual liar) 

I'd take everything about the Stranger (*especially* what he reveals himself) with a big grain o' salt.


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## Id (Jan 30, 2006)

Ok I wanted to sum up everything I said into a single post. Why? Cus I can and Im bored.

The ?Primal Force, and The ?Living Tribunal? are the only two cosmic entities that have bin known to act an in Multi-Verse Scale.

The LT, has authority to maintain a balance throughout out the multi-verse. Adding/Stripping powers at a cosmic scale. Destroying/Sealing universe and other lesser cosmic?s who he deems as a threat. He remains constant thru out all and judges as he sees best, disregarding any emotion as if a computer is following the programs command. 

The PF, on the other hand is the force of destruction/creation throughout all of the MU at a multi-verse scale, as well. And if it wishes to when, the ?PF? sees its time to end a universe, the PF. has the ability to choose who is going to be the survivors, and as well as appointing new cosmic entities.

The LT, has bin deemed superior to the PF simply because there is no simple humanoid/intelligent being as a host, the way PF is. He is simply a cosmic entity who was created by an even higher Power, and is as old as time itself. Its job is to simply job, with no emotional attachments to avoid making mistakes, and making the best out of hard decisions. Making him a form of Nature to the MU.

The Primal Force, on the other hand has the same power of class. The LT did not create the PF. The PF was created by a higher power to follow the course of Nature of the MU as well. The PF itself does not have emotions or feeling like the LT. But is in charge of Creating Not judging. And the reason behind the PF choosing a host, is so it can do a better job recreating/coordinating the new MU over the old.  (it needs the raw emotions such as compsion, love, hate and so on that can only be obtained from a host/avatar.)

Now if someone is to be wilding such high power, why do they have such high Highs, and such low Low?s? mostly due to PIS, CIS. Keep in mind it?s a comic book not a science book. (I mean it is a comic book that breaks the laws of Physics and thermodynamics on a regular basis.)

Can LT challenge the Primal Force? Apparently no.

When the PF decides to Coordinate the MU, Can it replace the LT over another abstract? Apparently no.

But Here is a better question?.. Can LT strip the powers of White Crown Phoenix, If he deems it as a cosmic threat? This is something that started to bug me.

I am not sure. 
WCP is the closet thing we have to a host completely merging to the Primal Force itself. I don?t think LT can, since the Jean is protected by the ?Primal Force? and LT can not undo or challenge the PF at will, (remember I deemed them as equal.)

And that was the point of my thread was to see if the LT has ever challenged and succeeded in undoing the will of the PF. So far I haven?t gotten my answer.


Any how here are some scans and feats to back up my claims.
The Watcher claims the PF is second only to the ?Creator?

*Spoiler*: __ 



[/QUOTE]




Other cosmic that praise her above theirs.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[/QUOTE]





Proof that PF does choses who gets to survive the big Bang/Crush and who becomes a new abstract of the MU.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[/QUOTE]




Here we see Jean (White Crown Phoenix) holding the MU at the palm of her hand, and altering reality as she sees fit. Also other hosts/avatar from other timelines and or different MU?s to prove that the Primal force does act at a mulit-verse Scale by appointing a host to weild the PF in her/his universe.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Lord Yu (Jan 30, 2006)

I do so love these comic battles I learn so much.


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## Id (Apr 25, 2006)

bumpy bump


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