# Girl, 12, forced to wear diaper in public after F on report card



## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

*Girl, 12, forced to wear diaper in public after F on report card
*

​


> A Minnesota couple has been accused of shaving their 12-year-old daughter's head and forcing her to run down the street wearing a diaper after she got an F on her report card.
> 
> A neighbor called the police after a crowd of about 50 people, including men and teen boys, came out to watch the girl run up and down the street wearing only a tank top and an adult diaper, according to the criminal complaint.
> 
> ...


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## lucky (May 10, 2012)

wtf--- this is crazy.  They should've put her in a shopping mall. 



*Spoiler*: __ 




all joking aside, they've the right mindset for discipline.  better than all the "you've tried your best, it's ok" parents. 

though the method...


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## Level7N00b (May 10, 2012)

Reminds me of the time that kid who got bad grades was forced to hold a humiliating sign on a freeway by his mother.


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## Mintaka (May 10, 2012)

lucky said:


> wtf--- this is crazy.  They should've put her in a shopping mall.
> 
> 
> all joking aside, they've the right mindset for discipline.  better than all the "you've tried your best, it's ok" parents.
> ...


No they do not.

Humiliating a child isn't going to make them preform better, it's either going to damage them or make them despise you.


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## lucky (May 10, 2012)

i meant the idea (mindset) that they must discipline the child to make them strive academically.  Not the humiliating (aforementioned method).


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

lucky said:


> i meant the idea (mindset) that they must discipline the child to make them strive academically.  Not the humiliating (aforementioned method).



Still wrong. The simplistic reward/punishment system works for simple, manual labor, but not for school or academic pursuits.


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> Still wrong. The simplistic reward/punishment system works for simple, manual labor, but not for school or academic pursuits.



Than what does work?


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Than what does work?



Does it matter? Lack of alternative is no reason to employ a system that we know doesn't work and may in fact do harm.

Off the top of my head I'd say helping the child find intrinsic motivation. Forcing extrinsic motivation helps if you want a person to do something straightforward, with clear, pre-defined rules, but that's not what school is.


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## FallenCloud (May 10, 2012)

Wow, that was harsh. They were trying, but they took the wrong approach. Maybe tone it down?


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 10, 2012)




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## Roman (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Than what does work?



Encouragement. Being by your child's side and guide them to find better ways to improve themselves and teach them what is best for them. Humiliating the child to everyone in the public isn't going to help her get better. If that sort of thing is done to a child, it will traumatize her, cause her to hate her parents. It won't encourage her to do her homework or study for tests. The child needs healthy environment without abuse. That's where she'd be able to nurture her talents and explore her interests. 

You can't expect to give her harsh treatment thinking that she needs to learn from very early on that life is harsh and you're on your own, because that's the impression I got from these parents. Leaving her out on the street half-naked left a clear message that these parents were teaching her that "if you fail, no one will be there to help you, not even us." That's not the sort of parental love and guidance that will help a child to grow. That's the mistake the parents did from the very beginning. Had they been there for her from the beginning, I'm 99.99% certain she'd have gotten a much better grade on the test.


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> Does it matter? Lack of alternative is no reason to employ a system that we know doesn't work and may in fact do harm.
> 
> Off the top of my head I'd say helping the child find intrinsic motivation. Forcing extrinsic motivation helps if you want a person to do something straightforward, with clear, pre-defined rules, but that's not what school is.





Freedan said:


> Ok, I'm just going to say this one thing. Should I worry that you said that?
> 
> Encouragement. Being by your child's side and guide them to find better ways to improve themselves and teach them what is best for them. Humiliating the child to everyone in the public isn't going to help her get better. If that sort of thing is done to a child, it will traumatize her, cause her to hate her parents. It won't encourage her to do her homework or study for tests. The child needs healthy environment without abuse. That's where she'd be able to nurture her talents and explore her interests.
> 
> You can't expect to give her harsh treatment thinking that she needs to learn from very early on that life is harsh and you're on your own, because that's the impression I got from these parents. Leaving her out on the street half-naked left a clear message that these parents were teaching her that "if you fail, no one will be there to help you, not even us." That's not the sort of parental love and guidance that will help a child to grow. That's the mistake the parents did from the very beginning. Had they been there for her from the beginning, I'm 99.99% certain she'd have gotten a much better grade on the test.


You two should be the parents' advisers then. In any case, as said by many on the news, right mind-set, wrong method.

I just hope the child is ok afterwards and gets better grades.


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## Draffut (May 10, 2012)

Freedan said:


> Encouragement. Being by your child's side and guide them to find better ways to improve themselves and teach them what is best for them.



As someone who almost flunked out of Highschool by never doing any of the school work despite knowing the material, I can guarentee you that that does not work.  My parents tried it with me and it didn't matter in the least.


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## Roman (May 10, 2012)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> As someone who almost flunked out of Highschool by never doing any of the school work despite knowing the material, I can guarentee you that that does not work.  My parents tried it with me and it didn't matter in the least.



Who is to blame for that then? Your parents? 

I almost flunked high school too and my parents were doing what I explained. It was my shortcoming for not listening to their guidence and being lazy about studying. So ultimately, it was my mistake and no one else's.

Harsher treatment wouldn't give better results because the failure in the test is already a clear message that if she doesn't do any better, she'll have to face the consequences. The abuse she received from her parents didn't help her do that tho, and parents are supposed to be there to guide her to a better future. Humiliating and punishing her isn't gonna do that for anyone.


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## Skywalker (May 10, 2012)

Parents of the year.


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> You two should be the parents' advisers then. In any case, as said by many on the news, right mind-set, wrong method.
> 
> I just hope the child is ok afterwards and gets better grades.



Please don't do that. Don't enter a debate and then ignore everyone just to repeat your already debunked point. 

Reward and punishment decrease creativity and problem-solving capabilities to increase concentration on the task at hand using known patterns. When the pattern is not known (e.g. when you write a test which is not 100% based on repetition of known material or when confronted with new material in class), your performance will be worse than that of someone who does not have a reward or punishment waiting for him.

This is not some controversial, new research, this is one of the most established theories in cognitive science.


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> Please don't do that. Don't enter a debate and then ignore everyone just to repeat your already debunked point.
> 
> Reward and punishment decrease creativity and problem-solving capabilities to increase concentration on the task at hand using known patterns. When the pattern is not known (e.g. when you write a test which is not 100% based on repetition of known material or when confronted with new material in class), your performance will be worse than that of someone who does not have a reward or punishment waiting for him.
> 
> This is not some controversial, new research, this is one of the most established theories in cognitive science.



Sauf, no one is entering a debate so shut with your assumptions. I simply asked what's an alternative.

You're against the parents' mind-set and method, I'm just against the method.


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## Gino (May 10, 2012)

Reminds me of a old girlfriend who had to wear a cardboardbox saying I'm a failure for getting a D on her report card that and I thought that was fucked up......


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## dummy plug (May 10, 2012)

wow, shave her head? that was too much


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Sauf, no one is entering a debate so shut with your assumptions. I simply asked what's an alternative.
> 
> You're against the parents' mind-set and method, I'm just against the method.



It's the caf?, you enter a debate by posting here. But I'll leave it at that, since you evidently don't care for the facts.


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

?Gino? said:


> Reminds me of a old girlfriend who had to wear a cardboardbox saying I'm a failure for getting a D on her report card that and I thought that was fucked up......



Wow.... she didn't do better in her classes afterwards?


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## Petes12 (May 10, 2012)

rofl

this should probably bother me or something huh? 

why didn't she just take the diaper off, i'm a bit confused there


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> It's the caf?, you enter a debate by posting here. But I'll leave it at that, since you evidently don't care for the facts.



Really now? I thought the *Debate Corner* was where you debated as soon as you posted. I had no idea, thank you king sauf for your superior knowledge. Evidently I don't care for facts, that must be why I started off with a question for alternatives and left it as that huh? No, surely it wasn't just to see your point of view on the topic at hand, you're so clever and full of depth.


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## Roman (May 10, 2012)

Petes12 said:


> rofl
> 
> this should probably bother me or something huh?
> 
> why didn't she just take the diaper off, i'm a bit confused there



Cuz she was outside....and I don't think she'd want 50 people to see her private areas....

I'm not sure if she was wearing her underwear underneath but I doubt it.


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## Petes12 (May 10, 2012)

oh! i thought they put the diaper on her head


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## lucky (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> Still wrong. The simplistic reward/punishment system works for simple, manual labor, but not for school or academic pursuits.



wuuttt--- am i reading? 

lol it works.  i know.  may not be the best method, but i know it works.


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## Gino (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Wow.... she didn't do better in her classes afterwards?



I would guess she did because she never wore it again after that.I imagine the experience alone was extremely humiliating.


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## Redshadow49 (May 10, 2012)

What happened to the old methods? You know: "No hanging out with your friends", "No TV, Video Games, allowance, etc", and if your older "No car", "Get a job", "straight home from school"

And if those don't work, just beat the kid in the privacy of your own home (jk...maybe)


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## zenieth (May 10, 2012)

implying there's a golden method to get children to perform to the best of their ability.


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## -Dargor- (May 10, 2012)

Thread is full of advice from people who don't (and probably never will) have kids 

Oh the nerds of the cafe, you never disapoint


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## Mist Puppet (May 10, 2012)

> The girl said it was the third time she had been placed on "diaper duty," according to the criminal complaint. The F on her latest report card triggered the latest round.



Interesting that this is the third time it's happened. You would think after the first or even second time this happened with no improvement, they'd try something else.


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## Redshadow49 (May 10, 2012)

> Thread is full of advice from people who don't (and probably never will) have kids
> 
> Oh the nerds of the cafe, you never disapoint



yeah but everyone had parents or some sort of guardian.  I personally brought up the methods my parents use to use on me.


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## Velocity (May 10, 2012)

Poor kid. I hope her parents are shaved and forced to wear Huggies while they're in prison.


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## Lovely (May 10, 2012)

On top of that, they shaved her head. Poor girl.


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

So basically itt:

It's better to be traumatized/mentally fucked/public humiliation than to get bad grades.


Cafe keep on staying classy.


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## Oturan (May 10, 2012)

I didn't realize punishing your child was against the law -__-

....although they should've been more reasonable in their punishment

she's lucky she doesn't have the kind of parents that beat their kids for doing poorly in school



Freedan said:


> Cuz she was outside....and I don't think she'd want 50 people to see her private areas....
> 
> I'm not sure if she was wearing her underwear underneath but I doubt it.



she was wearing the diaper the same way babies wear it


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Really now? I thought the *Debate Corner* was where you debated as soon as you posted. I had no idea, thank you king sauf for your superior knowledge. Evidently I don't care for facts, that must be why I started off with a question for alternatives and left it as that huh? No, surely it wasn't just to see your point of view on the topic at hand, you're so clever and full of depth.



It's simply annoying when you ask my opinion and then refuse to acknowledge or reflect on anything I say. Disagreeing is one thing but completely ignoring someone else after specifically asking them about something is rather aggravating.



-Dargor- said:


> Thread is full of advice from people who don't (and probably never will) have kids
> 
> Oh the nerds of the cafe, you never disapoint



So you're saying one has to have children to learn about cognitive science? I guess you also have to put a fork in the toaster before being allowed to study electrodynamics. And how about those ridiculous nerds who read about history? They've never even been to the 19th century, it's ludicrous!


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## zenieth (May 10, 2012)

I've been beaten for doing stupid shit all the way to age 13, I find this significantly more fucked up bro and or sis.


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## Vermin (May 10, 2012)

Did they really need to shave her hair?


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

Oturan said:


> I didn't realize punishing your child was against the law -__-



....

Depending on how it's done, yeah it is illegal.


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## Oturan (May 10, 2012)

what kind of stupid law is that?


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## zenieth (May 10, 2012)

I feel this discussion is getting stupider by the second.


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

......

*Depending on how it's done*, then yeah they should be jailed.


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## Slayer (May 10, 2012)

I like how the mom just look like she holds so much contempt in that picture. And how the boy friend kind of looks sad or something.



Mist Puppet said:


> Interesting that this is the third time it's happened. You would think after the first or even second time this happened with no improvement, they'd try something else.



This. After two times with no improvement, why continue using the same old method?


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## CrazyMoronX (May 10, 2012)

Was hoping for pics.


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

Oturan said:


> what kind of stupid law is that?



Do you NOT know what child abuse is?


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> It's simply annoying when you ask my opinion and then refuse to acknowledge or reflect on anything I say. Disagreeing is one thing but completely ignoring someone else after specifically asking them about something is rather aggravating.



That's your problem 

But in all seriousness, the punishment/reward style still works, just not nearly as good as other styles. In the end we all use some form of punishment/reward: at your job; in your relationship with your lover; kids; etc- just to a smaller degree.


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## Roman (May 10, 2012)

Oturan said:


> I didn't realize punishing your child was against the law -__-



Shaving a child's head and kicking them out half-naked with a daiper isn't what any sensible person would consider punishment. That's downright abuse. Imagine also if the girl wasn't living in the best neighbourhood. Something A LOT worse could've happened to her. If the parents haven't been charged with child endangerment, they should have.


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## Kenju (May 10, 2012)

LOL Dad looks ultra depressed


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## Gunners (May 10, 2012)

lucky said:


> wtf--- this is crazy.  They should've put her in a shopping mall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No they don't have the right mindset and it is foolish to say they have the right mindset whilst scoffing at parents letting their children know that it is okay if they have tried their best. If the child has tried their best then it is actually important for the parents to support them. 

In the event that they are under performing then communication is vital.


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

^ The guy just vmmed me and thinks "it's hilarious" that a 12 year old girl got humiliated like that.

That's enough said about him.


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## Gunners (May 10, 2012)

Flow said:


> ^ The guy just vmmed me and thinks "it's hilarious" that a 12 year old girl got humiliated like that.
> 
> That's enough said about him.



Put the username of the poster as I vmed you no such thing.


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## Huntress (May 10, 2012)

one the parents must have a diaper fetish


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## Slayer (May 10, 2012)

Kenju Tohno said:


> LOL Dad looks ultra depressed



He's the moms boyfriend, not the father.


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## EJ (May 10, 2012)

Gunners said:


> Put the username of the poster as I vmed you no such thing.



No, lucky did. I didn't say you did lol


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## Oturan (May 10, 2012)

-Dargor- said:


> Thread is full of advice from people who don't (and probably never will) have kids
> 
> Oh the nerds of the cafe, you never disapoint



don't really need to have kids to know how to take care of one..


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## CrazyMoronX (May 10, 2012)

That guy looks exactly like a melding of Scott Woods and Forrest Whitaker.


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Oturan said:


> what kind of stupid law is that?



Do you think parents should be allowed to break their children's bones as punishment? That should answer your question.



Bishop said:


> That's your problem
> 
> But in all seriousness, the punishment/reward style still works, just not nearly as good as other styles. In the end we all use some form of punishment/reward: at your job; in your relationship with your lover; kids; etc- just to a smaller degree.



And science tells us that that's wrong. We've styled our society around a system that we know doesn't work. How many people have jobs that require simple tasks with no requirement for problem-solving capabilities or creative thinking? Very few in the developed world, so we know for a fact that stupid shit like bonuses just don't have the effect you instinctively think they will. 

Cognitive science has known this for decades, yet society refuses to acknowledge it just like you're doing right now. It's just easier to think that carrot and stick are still as effective as they've been 100 years ago.


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## Eternity (May 10, 2012)

Bad parenting is bad.


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## Oturan (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> *Do you think parents should be allowed to break their children's bones as punishment? That should answer your question*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I see your point there


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## CrazyMoronX (May 10, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 




+

=


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## The Great Oneddd (May 10, 2012)

Parents have the right to punish a child but there are limits to everything.  That was way over the line. Shaving a 12 yr old girls head goes too far and the rest is just as bad.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 10, 2012)

Right idea, wrong execution.


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## Bishop (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> And science tells us that that's wrong. We've styled our society around a system that we know doesn't work. How many people have jobs that require simple tasks with no requirement for problem-solving capabilities or creative thinking? Very few in the developed world, so we know for a fact that stupid shit like bonuses just don't have the effect you instinctively think they will.
> 
> Cognitive science has known this for decades, yet society refuses to acknowledge it just like you're doing right now. It's just easier to think that carrot and stick are still as effective as they've been 100 years ago.



Sauf, we're not debating how effective it is, just that it is still used and effective, even in small ways.

Example (That everyone should know): If you treat your girl right, you have a good chance of getting some lovin. If you treat her bad on that day, your chances of lovin drop substantially; that's punishment/ reward.

Example: When your kid does well in school, you get them the toys they want (reward), when they do bad, you use your method of encouragement. If they get to the point where they say, "Daddy Sauf, I just don't give a darn", you use punishment- may be a talking to, a timeout, a German kiss, etc- but it's punishment. 

Example: You run a light, cop gives you a ticket; Punishment. You kiss his ass and tell him you love him, or show him your breasts, he gives you a warning- reward.

It's simple cause in effect wrapped around reward/punishment. We all do it Sauf.


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

Bishop said:


> Sauf, we're not debating how effective it is, just that it is still used and effective, even in small ways.
> 
> Example (That everyone should know): If you treat your girl right, you have a good chance of getting some lovin. If you treat her bad on that day, your chances of lovin drop substantially; that's punishment/ reward.
> 
> ...



The rewards for gettin some lovin are purely intrinsic and so is the motivation. We're talking about things that someone does not want to do. If a child wants to succeed in school and enjoys what he or she learns there, then there won't be a problem. They'll use their full potential. Same for gettin some lovin. If you don't enjoy being nice to your girl and only treat her well because you expect some reward, then chances are she'll say "we need to talk" any day now.

Speeding tickets are again about rules and not creativity or problem-solving. You have a set of rules and you follow those rules. You will very rarely encounter problems that are not covered by those rules and if you do encounter them, you won't get fined for whatever you do. A driving test relies on memory and repetition. You learn all the rules and prepare to repeat them when asked to. That's not what happens in school, at least not past first or second grade.

When I was a child, I started playing the violin. My mother would constantly nag about me not practizing enough and made me play for way longer than I was comfortable. Eventually I started skipping my lessons, my performance got worse and I stopped playing altogether.

Now I'm living on my own and I decided that I really want to play the violin again. I bought my own instrument, I signed up for lessons, I practize regularly and after just a few weeks I was better than after 3 years of playing back in elementary school. There is no reward, no punishment for getting better or worse.

Had I not been forced to do more than I wanted to back when I was young, maybe I would never have stopped playing. Not only did the reward/punishment thing not work, it actually decreased my overall motivation. That is what we observe in every experiment that deals with overjustification in problems requiring creative thinking.

If you add extrinsiv motivation, you can actually decrease intrinsic motivation, this is especially the case with predictable rewards/punishments. If you know that "every time you do x, you get y", then your intrinsic motivation to do x will diminish over time.


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## Eternity (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> The rewards for gettin some lovin are purely intrinsic and so is the motivation. We're talking about things that someone does not want to do. If a child wants to succeed in school and enjoys what he or she learns there, then there won't be a problem. They'll use their full potential. Same for gettin some lovin. If you don't enjoy being nice to your girl and only treat her well because you expect some reward, then chances are she'll say "we need to talk" any day now.
> 
> Speeding tickets are again about rules and not creativity or problem-solving. You have a set of rules and you follow those rules. You will very rarely encounter problems that are not covered by those rules and if you do encounter them, you won't get fined for whatever you do. A driving test relies on memory and repetition. You learn all the rules and prepare to repeat them when asked to. That's not what happens in school, at least not past first or second grade.
> 
> ...



If I could rep you again, I would.


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## AmigoOne (May 10, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> stuff



The majority of the asian race would like to disagree with you


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## Saufsoldat (May 10, 2012)

AmigoOne said:


> The majority of the asian race would like to disagree with you



I'm not a racist, so I disagree with your disagreeing.


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## The Weeknd (May 10, 2012)

Sad dad is sad.


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## T7 Bateman (May 10, 2012)

Sad that they would even think this would get her to have better grades. All it does is make her fear them and stress out more which will effect your school work even more and you can tell they are dumb cuz they lol at the cops arrest for this like they didn't know it is a form of child abuse which is a crime.


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## MasterSitsu (May 10, 2012)

No YouTube video.

Son I'm disappoint


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## Stan Lee (May 11, 2012)

Mintaka said:


> No they do not.
> 
> Humiliating a child isn't going to make them preform better, it's either going to damage them or make them despise you.



I know this first hand.


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## AmigoOne (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm not a racist, so I disagree with your disagreeing.



Majority of asians are racist. So I disagree with your disagree to my disagree.


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## Kira Yamato (May 11, 2012)

Some people just weren't met to be parents.


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## blackbird (May 11, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUv5Q9we_l4[/YOUTUBE]

Who am I to tell people how to raise their kids.


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## Spock (May 11, 2012)

Sad, I hope they get sent to a rehabilitation center .


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## baconbits (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> And science tells us that that's wrong. We've styled our society around a system that we know doesn't work. How many people have jobs that require simple tasks with no requirement for problem-solving capabilities or creative thinking? Very few in the developed world, so we know for a fact that stupid shit like bonuses just don't have the effect you instinctively think they will.
> 
> Cognitive science has known this for decades, yet society refuses to acknowledge it just like you're doing right now. It's just easier to think that carrot and stick are still as effective as they've been 100 years ago.



This is actually false.  Studies done by economists show that CEO compensation is based on the performance of the company's stocks.  In short - people are paying for performance and bonuses are the most efficient way of getting performance.


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## Saufsoldat (May 11, 2012)

baconbits said:


> This is actually false.  Studies done by economists show that CEO compensation is based on the performance of the company's stocks.  In short - people are paying for performance and bonuses are the most efficient way of getting performance.



Nope, studies and meta-analyses have consistently shown that predictable rewards/punishments for non-trivial tasks lower the intrinsic motivation and over time decrease performance unless the initial intrinsic motivation was already very low.

So unless you're telling me that all CEOs hate their jobs and are completely unmotivated to do anything unless paid for, you're wrong. Successful companies may pay more to their CEOs, but the inversion of the argument is completely false.


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## Hand Banana (May 11, 2012)

Can either of you provide actual statistics?


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## Saufsoldat (May 11, 2012)

, unfortunately they're not free to read so you'll have to make due with the abstract.


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## Bishop (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> The rewards for gettin some lovin are purely intrinsic and so is the motivation. We're talking about things that someone does not want to do. If a child wants to succeed in school and enjoys what he or she learns there, then there won't be a problem. They'll use their full potential. Same for gettin some lovin. If you don't enjoy being nice to your girl and only treat her well because you expect some reward, then chances are she'll say "we need to talk" any day now.
> 
> Speeding tickets are again about rules and not creativity or problem-solving. You have a set of rules and you follow those rules. You will very rarely encounter problems that are not covered by those rules and if you do encounter them, you won't get fined for whatever you do. A driving test relies on memory and repetition. You learn all the rules and prepare to repeat them when asked to. That's not what happens in school, at least not past first or second grade.
> 
> ...



I hope you are kidding? How do you not see that you get a reward from playing the violin. You feel something when you play it and you want to play to get that feeling (reward).

Speeding ticket is a rule that reinforces the punishment from doing wrong. Surely you see this.

You mentioned you now practiced the violin and are better: you being better is the REWARD you get from practicing.

I believe you think I'm talking about people who hate doing something but are forced with the punishment reward system, I'm not. You can like it, but carrot and stick is still around. I know you aren't arguing that the reward/punishment system doesn't work completely. It isn't the best system, but it works.


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## Saufsoldat (May 11, 2012)

Bishop said:


> I hope you are kidding? How do you not see that you get a reward from playing the violin. You feel something when you play it and you want to play to get that feeling (reward).



It's an intangible reward, from me for me. I'm talking about physical, tangible rewards. Money, candy, a trip to Disneyland, etc.

Intangible rewards like (honest) praise are actually good for intrinsic motivation.



> Speeding ticket is a rule that reinforces the punishment from doing wrong. Surely you see this.



Again, driving is not difficult. You have rules that you either follow or don't follow, period.

Even so, stricter punishments do not increase your intrinsic motivation to drive more safely, just your intrinsic motivation not to get caught.



> You mentioned you now practiced the violin and are better: you being better is the REWARD you get from practicing.



Not the kind of reward we were talking about this entire time.



> I believe you think I'm talking about people who hate doing something but are forced with the punishment reward system, I'm not. You can like it, but carrot and stick is still around. I know you aren't arguing that the reward/punishment system doesn't work completely. It isn't the best system, but it works.



It works (or at least does no harm) under specific conditions, which are becoming increasingly rare in modern society.


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## Bishop (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> It's an intangible reward, from me for me. I'm talking about physical, tangible rewards. Money, candy, a trip to Disneyland, etc.


You never distinguished one or the other; I am talking about it in it's totality, it works.





> Again, driving is not difficult. You have rules that you either follow or don't follow, period.



Why do you bring difficult into this? You have rules you follow and if you do you receive rewards, if you don't you receive punishment. Every cop, judge, and psychologist will tell you it's punishment, period.



> Even so, stricter punishments do not increase your intrinsic motivation to drive more safely, just your intrinsic motivation not to get caught


.
No one is talking about stricter punishments, we are talking about the system as a whole, which works.




> Not the kind of reward we were talking about this entire time.


What do you mean "kind" of reward: we are talking about reward period, the kind doesn't matter.




> It works (or at least does no harm) under specific conditions, which are becoming increasingly rare in modern society.


That's the point Sauf, it works, but is not the best system.

Here is a study and article discussion the findings of the system, it clearly finds that the reward-extended system is better, but that the reward/punishment system can't be shown to have terrible results in behavior long-term:


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## Saufsoldat (May 11, 2012)

Bishop said:


> You never distinguished one or the other; I am talking about it in it's totality, it works.



No, it doesn't. If only a small subset of X actually works, you can't claim that X in its totality works. That's like saying racial profiling works if at least one criminal got caught that way.



> Why do you bring difficult into this? You have rules you follow and if you do you receive rewards, if you don't you receive punishment. Every cop, judge, and psychologist will tell you it's punishment, period.
> 
> No one is talking about stricter punishments, we are talking about the system as a whole, which works.



I bring difficult into it because I've never argued anything else. Performance in menial tasks is increased with rewards. I haven't argued against that at any point of time. My point was that we still use carrot and stick in evironments like education or white collar work, where it's extremely detrimental to intrinsic motivation.

Again, you cannot look at just traffic apply what you think to see there to all of society. It doesn't work.



> What do you mean "kind" of reward: we are talking about reward period, the kind doesn't matter.



It matters, stop oversimplifying things.



> That's the point Sauf, it works, but is not the best system.



Under. Certain. Circumstances.

What part of that is hard to understand? I half-assed high school and still did very well. That means half-assing works even if it's not the best system, right?



> Here is a study and article discussion the findings of the system, it clearly finds that the reward-extended system is better, but that the reward/punishment system can't be shown to have terrible results in behavior long-term:



Once more completely irrelevant to anything I've said. The task given to those people was a trivial, low-interest task based on reaction time, not creative thinking or problem-solving like most relevant tasks in modern day society.


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## Bishop (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> No, it doesn't. If only a small subset of X actually works, you can't claim that X in its totality works. That's like saying racial profiling works if at least one criminal got caught that way.


That's a crap analogy seeing as it isn't so minute as to be singled out; people proved to you that it is used and works in work-place and houses. You're just trying to win some argument rather than be logical.





> I bring difficult into it because I've never argued anything else. Performance in menial tasks is increased with rewards. I haven't argued against that at any point of time. My point was that we still use carrot and stick in evironments like education or white collar work, where it's extremely detrimental to intrinsic motivation.


Yes you did, this is how we got started, I said right mind-set, you said it isn't because it is a bad style- later on you introduced difficulty.

I extremely agree with you on the school part, it's the punishment that makes normal kids become labelled retarded and put into classes they don't need and lowers their confidence in life.



> Again, you cannot look at just traffic apply what you think to see there to all of society. It doesn't work.


Traffic is one example, I can use it with ANYTHING, give me the field and I'll show you how it is used.

It matters, stop oversimplifying things.





> Under. Certain. Circumstances.
> 
> What part of that is hard to understand? I half-assed high school and still did very well. That means half-assing works even if it's not the best system, right?


Yes sauf, half-assing does work in many situations, you will find this out when you get a job 

You changed from *never* working to in *certain situations*. No reason to continue since that's what I was saying from the get-go.



> Once more completely irrelevant to anything I've said. The task given to those people was a trivial, low-interest task based on reaction time, not creative thinking or problem-solving like most relevant tasks in modern day society.


I don't know where you came from with this creative thinking; we were discussing the system and if it works, then you started adding limits and restrictions. 

One way or another, we both agree that it works, just not the best style. Is there anymore reason to debate?


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## pikachuwei (May 11, 2012)

AmigoOne said:


> The majority of the asian race would like to disagree with you



^QFT

People always wonder why there are so many Asian brainiacs around

It's because they study intensely hard

why? Because our parents will whoop our asses if we get bad grades.

My parents regularly threaten to ground me, take away my money or not send me to uni if I fail so I'm like "okay" and go study, when I was younger I'd get my butt owned for bad grades or not practicing piano/violin enough

One of my friends still gets regularly beaten for anything less than an A in any tests and hes one of the top students in the country. 

Just about all the smart asians I know are under some sort of "punishment" system. In fact I am envied by most of them because I actually get "rewards" for doing well (new computer/game, etc) coz my parents are nicer.

And this is the asian community in a western country. You know why so many Asians migrate to Western countries? It's because they believe their child will have a more stress-free environment to study in. Which is true. Many white kids listen to our stories with horror, but we count ourselves lucky because our contemporaries back in Asia are suffering a much worse hell. In Taiwan for example (where I migrated from) from primary kids go to school at 6:30 or 7 in the morning, finish at 4 or 5 and then go to cram schools till 10 or 11 at night. The vast majority of the student population go through that because the competition is just so intense. Compared with that, a 7 hour school day in college and 2~3 hours of study a night is nothing. And coz our parents went through hell in their school days, they don't cut us any slack when we derp and get bad grades

And that intense regimen of study is why Asian countries rank so high in the world student academic ranking study thingy that was in the news a while back. China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, all far above their western contemporaries. 
The only support I see for an "encouraging" education system instead of the "we whoop ur ass" system would be because of the success of one of the Nordic countries (iirc it was Finland?) which ranked almost as high as South Korea in the tests
But that is because their education system is dramatically different from the norm. Teachers there all have masters degrees and teaching is a highly respected profession. Every student has a course tailor-designed for them and are allowed to get on at their own pace. Compare that with the rest of the world with all the standardized tests, teachers teaching large classes at one fixed pace, the teaching profession regularly being shit on by parents and other people etc etc.

I do agree that potentially the "encouragement" system is superior to the current system prevalent in many countries of punishment, but unless the rest of the education systems get revamped the reward/punishment is just going to be more effective for the vast majority of students. Of all the people I know who don't go through harsh "asian style" parenting at my school, only one or two have comparable grades with us while the rest are notably less academically accomplished.


On the article, I agree that the parents went far over the top with the diapers+shaving (the diaper is alright but the shaving is definitely too harsh, especially for a girl), but the basic concept of reward/punishment is sound.


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## Tsukiyomi (May 11, 2012)

I've never understood parents who pull that kind of shit on their kids.  When you're old and weak you're going to be at the mercy of your kids.


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## Bishop (May 11, 2012)

pikachuwei said:


> when I was younger I'd get my butt owned for bad grades or not practicing piano/violin enough



Personally I'm against sodomy, but I can see it helped in getting higher grades.


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## Palpatine (May 11, 2012)

It's messed up that I originally pictured the parents being Asian...


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## AtomCy (May 11, 2012)

Saufsoldat said:


> I bring difficult into it because I've never argued anything else. Performance in menial tasks is increased with rewards. I haven't argued against that at any point of time. My point was that we still use carrot and stick in evironments like education or white collar work, where it's extremely detrimental to intrinsic motivation.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc [/YOUTUBE]

I think this is what you're trying to say. 


Anyhow, retarded people with no sign of empathy will always be bad parents.


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## Lucciola (May 11, 2012)

If my father hadn't whooped my ass the second time I skipped class to watch my favorite TV show, I'd have dropped out ages ago. I didn't like school, I still don't, but I'm doing incredibly well for someone who hates school so much and I must thank my dad for that. 

I wouldn't beat or humiliate my kids but if my 12 year old kid got lower than a B in a 6th grade class after the second time I warned her, something other than warnings would happen. F is unforgivable. I don't accept C's until the kid gets to college (no, not college, my kids have to go to universities. And they can only have lower than B+ in non-science courses). But it's still not acceptable


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## Morgan (May 11, 2012)

Well it's not like she wasn't warned. You have to try really hard to get an F. It's almost like it's spite. This girl is underestimating the value of education with so many children from poor countries wanting to be in her shoes.

If she was my child and she kept hugging Fs, I'd keep her until she turned twenty, then kick her out and watch what she's gonna get into just to feed herself. I would not help.


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## TSC (May 11, 2012)

WHY ME SAD?


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 11, 2012)

TSC said:


> WHY ME SAD?


THE HEART the parents didn't have it.


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## Shingy (May 11, 2012)

Pics?


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## Fruits Basket Fan (May 11, 2012)

^ Come on, now....The girl is ONLY 12 years old.


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