# Tsunade vs Gaara vs Mei vs Ei vs Oonoki



## Luftwaffles (May 23, 2013)

Who would come out on top?

Location: VotE
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Oonoki's Turtle Island-busting Jinton

Who wins?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

If Onoki's 'Super Jinton' that was over a kilometer in diameter and atomized Madara's 25 Susano'o, is restricted, I honestly see A coming out on top here. At his fastest, he's far too fast to be hit by any of their techniques and arguably too fast to be even seen by the majority of them (in particular, Mei, Gaara, and Tsunade). 

However, given that Onoki was able to perfectly time his Ultra-Added-Weight technique in conjunction with Ei despite moving at speeds far faster than his V2 Lightning Shroud, the former isn't getting blitzed anytime soon. Ei can take out Mei and Tsunade fairly quickly though, with his Lightning Oppressive Horizontal Chop; Gaara will take some more time with the sand defenses in play, but Ei's speed should allow him to work around it.

Eventually, it'll come down to Onoki firing constant Jinton at a super-fast Ei, who effortlessly dodges all of them and eventually closes in to deliver a finishing blow.


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## FlamingRain (May 23, 2013)

Onoki would be the most dangerous in a free-for-all like this, with his huge AoE Jinton and all. . .which is why manga knowledge means everyone's going to want Onoki gone- Jinton while everyone's occupied is too much of a threat. He'll probably end up dying first. Chances are Ay will end up being he one to do it since he can get to Onoki faster than the other Kage, he can likely beat Jinton's charge time as well.

From there. . .. . .with them being by a water source and all, Mei probably makes Gaara's sand useless and sets him up to be killed before he can build up enough sand to really do much of anything. There isn't as much dirt to grind at the VoTE as Gaara would like to really reach his true potential.

That leaves Mei, Tsunade, and Raikage. I don't believe Mei would be able to deal with either one of them, next to a water source or not. Either would run through/past her offense and kick her head off.


*FINALE*

Then it's onto the Hokage vs. Raikage- the Taijutsu masters of the Kage. Since this is the last fight imo, it will be the only one with a detailed explanation.

I actually think Tsunade's style matches up well against Ay's. He's a helluva lot faster than she is, but that's not at all how she wins. Ay's taijutsu relies on getting up in your face surprisingly fast and knocking your block off: if you guard, so what? He'll break through it with his incredible strength enhanced by RnY. Counter with your own strike? No biggie, good luck dishing out anything that can hurt him with RnY.

Tsunade on the other hand relies on standing her ground and sacrificing her body to trade hits with opponents too fast for her to land a hit on normally. Unlike Jugo or Suigetsu, she wouldn't bother trying to block- she'd just throw a punch timed with Raikage's predictable blitz. Part of Tsunade's fighting style is her ability to _anticipate_ things in advance, and while Raikage is _fast_, he is not not _unpredictable_; Ay's attacks are wound up, linear, and he pauses right after he strikes.

Tsunade- being able to withstand CST and Madara's Magatama and being skewered by Susano'o swords, able to attack quickly enough to get her kick under Madara's block after being transported to the field, and possessing far more power than the Raikage himself- should be able to trade shots with Raikage just fine. So she wrecks him right as he wrecks her. . .but then gets a full recovery when he doesn't thanks to Byakugo.

If Katsuyu has been summoned and she decides to help Tsunade by dividing and taking up space around the area, that helps too, I guess.

*RESULT*
Tsunade wins the Kage free-for-all.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade on the other hand relies on standing her ground and sacrificing her body to trade hits with opponents too fast for her to land a hit on normally. Unlike Jugo or Suigetsu, she wouldn't bother trying to block- she'd just throw a punch timed with Raikage's predictable blitz. Part of Tsunade's fighting style is her ability to _anticipate_ things in advance, and while Raikage is _fast_, he is not not _unpredictable_; Ay's attacks are wound up, linear, and he pauses right after he strikes.



I only recall Raikage pausing before he struck against Sasuke, whose Enton-engulfed Susano'o ribcage defense made Raikage hesitate for a moment to debate whether or not he should risk his arm just to strike him. That doesn't say much about his actual fighting style; we could clearly see that he was initially moving at V2 speeds with his attack wound up, before Sasuke's defense made him pause.

So no, he's not doing that against any of the Kages.



> Tsunade- being able to withstand CST



Didn't she have a portion of Katsuyu with her? Otherwise, her being able to 'withstand' CST would be a pretty damn big outlier feat for her, consider CST has greater power than Perfect Susano'o slash. 



> and Madara's Magatama and being skewered by Susano'o swords, able to attack quickly enough to get her kick under Madara's block after being transported to the field, and possessing far more power than the Raikage himself- should be able to trade shots with Raikage just fine. So she wrecks him right as he wrecks her. . .but then gets a full recovery when he doesn't thanks to Byakugo.



As cool as those feats are, what's going to prevent Raikage simply beheading her with a Lightning Horizontal Chop at V2 speeds, thereby destroying her opportunity to retaliate?

And wouldn't Raikage's infinitely greater reactions/speed grant him the ability to dodge her counter-attack, even if she could?


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## FlamingRain (May 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I only recall Raikage pausing before he struck against Sasuke, whose Enton-engulfed Susano'o ribcage defense made Raikage hesitate for a moment to debate whether or not he should risk his arm just to strike him. That doesn't say much about his actual fighting style; we could clearly see that he was initially moving at V2 speeds with his attack wound up, before Sasuke's defense made him pause.
> 
> So no, he's not doing that against any of the Kages.



That would be an instance of him pausing _before_ he actually strikes. . .which I didn't say he would do.

It'd clearly be a big help if he did , but I agree that he wouldn't.



> Didn't she have a portion of Katsuyu with her? Otherwise, her being able to 'withstand' CST would be a pretty damn big outlier feat for her, consider CST has greater power than Perfect Susano'o slash.



The portion she had with her could fit in her hand. . .

Seems like the human sized divisions were all busy covering the rest of the villagers. Which would make sense since they were already in contact with them because they were trying to heal them, which they weren't trying to do with Tsunade.

I'm pretty sure PS's slash would cleave the Leaf in two effortlessly.

People should be more resistant to blunt-force than slicing attacks, though. (Heck Danzo took one of Susano's punches right into a wall and got back up, but was sliced  clean through by Sasuke's katana when even Kusanagi couldn't do so to Tsunade.) So PS slash should be more dangerous to her anyway.



> As cool as those feats are, what's going to prevent Raikage simply beheading her with a Lightning Horizontal Chop at V2 speeds, thereby destroying her opportunity to retaliate?
> 
> And wouldn't Raikage's infinitely greater reactions/speed grant him the ability to dodge her counter-attack, even if she could?



Her retaliation would be occuring alongside his strike- a simultaneous strike like the Kage level version of Sakura vs. Ino.

Though I guess I can't really prove it, I'm not of the opinion that a headshot would kill her as hyped as her regeneration is. Heck, Ay apparently _does not think she can die_ with Byakugo on going by his warning to her during the fight with the Susano'o clones. He seems to think she needs to be exhausted until the technique wears off to be killed, but playing keep away when he himself is a close-quarters fighter won't do him any good because Byakugo doesn't waste energy healing her if she's not being damaged.

To do that he would have to hit her and dodge at the same time. I don't see how anybody could do that sans Naruto and his super extending chakra arms.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> That would be an instance of him pausing _before_ he actually strikes. . .which I didn't say he would do.
> 
> It'd clearly be a big help if he did , but I agree that he wouldn't.



Whoops, misread 'after' as 'before. It would be a great help to her, though. 



> The portion she had with her could fit in her hand. . .



Every other snail fit comfortably on another person's shoulder within Konoha; this was made apparent with the cases of Ino, Shizune, etc. Human-sized snails were used for villagers who were already injured.

Nevertheless, if Tsunade did indeed still have Katsuyu with her, her feats of 'tanking' CST are no better than any other fodder who lived through it. Katsuyu cushioned the blast for all of them.



> I'm pretty sure PS's slash would cleave the Leaf in two effortlessly.



Chou Shinra Tensei: 200 megatons.

Perfect Susano'o slash: 132 megatons.

Your pick. 



> People should be more resistant to blunt-force than slicing attacks, though. (Heck Danzo took one of Susano's punches right into a wall and got back up, but was sliced  clean through by Sasuke's katana when even Kusanagi couldn't do so to Tsunade.) So PS slash should be more dangerous to her anyway.



Perfect Susano'o's sword is mindblowingly immense enough that a slash from said katana of the construct shouldn't even be considered as a slicing attack if it struck Tsunade. It'd still be blunt force.



> Her retaliation would be occuring alongside his strike- a simultaneous strike like the Kage level version of Sakura vs. Ino.



You, previously, stated that Tsunade would find Ei's approach predictable and thus throw a punch, somehow, in the exact correct direction where she would foresee his movements.

Not only is such an argument flimsy as all hell, but besides the fact that this 'simultaneous strike' would be infinitely slower than his own blows and thus Ei would find it remarkably easy to dodge even if Tsunade managed to predict the trajectory of his movements, but we've seen that Ei does not always attack linearly as you imply. It varies; he attacked Muu from the forefront, and later, assaulted Madara at 6:00.

He initially charged directly towards Sasuke, yet with V2 speeds, came at him from behind. Tsunade isn't going to know where to look and her counter-attacks are far too slow to matter. And by the time she 'figures out' his pattern of style, her head will have already been flying.



> Though I guess I can't really prove it, I'm not of the opinion that a headshot would kill her as hyped as her regeneration is. Heck, Ay apparently _does not think she can die_ with Byakugo on going by his warning to her during the fight with the Susano'o clones. He seems to think she needs to be exhausted until the technique wears off to be killed, but playing keep away when he himself is a close-quarters fighter won't do him any good because Byakugo doesn't waste energy healing her if she's not being damaged.



He said that to her because even bifurcating her, as done with Susano'o's assaults, seemed to fail to impede her fighting ability in the slightest. That does not imply, 'You can tank every manner of attack possible', because that is simply a no-limits fallacy.

She hasn't shown the ability to regenerate from decapitation, as far as I see it.



> To do that he would have to hit her and dodge at the same time. I don't see how anybody could do that sans Naruto and his super extending chakra arms.



This assuming that Tsunade somehow correctly times her attack to be at the precise moment when Raikage strikes, which simply is a ridiculous, nonsensical notion. You realize Raikage can run circles around her all day until he picks a random second to move in? Why should Tsunade be able to foretell that occasion just because, by your admission, 'Raikage fights predictably' - a notion that was already disproved above?


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## Kai (May 24, 2013)

I have trouble seeing A's one dimensional fighting style winning a free for all such as this with such a variety of techniques in play.


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## Bonly (May 24, 2013)

Too many factors that would could come into play so i'll just go with the strongest Kage Onoki.


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## FlamingRain (May 24, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Every other snail fit comfortably on another person's shoulder within Konoha; this was made apparent with the cases of Ino, Shizune, etc. Human-sized snails were used for villagers who were already injured.
> 
> Nevertheless, if Tsunade did indeed still have Katsuyu with her, her feats of 'tanking' CST are no better than any other fodder who lived through it. Katsuyu cushioned the blast for all of them.



White Rage

None of those slugs were only shoulder-sized. Where did you get that from?

Something that can fit in Tsunade's hand is not going to do any notable cushioning in the face of CST. What, was Katsuyu trying to protect her fingernails or something?



> Chou Shinra Tensei: 200 megatons.
> 
> Perfect Susano'o slash: 132 megatons.
> 
> ...





Huh. . .well idk then.



> You, previously, stated that Tsunade would find Ei's approach predictable and thus throw a punch, somehow, in the exact correct direction where she would foresee his movements.
> 
> Not only is such an argument flimsy as all hell, but besides the fact that this 'simultaneous strike' would be infinitely slower than his own blows and thus Ei would find it remarkably easy to dodge even if Tsunade managed to predict the trajectory of his movements, but we've seen that Ei does not always attack linearly as you imply. It varies; he attacked Muu from the forefront, and later, assaulted Madara at 6:00.
> 
> He initially charged directly towards Sasuke, yet with V2 speeds, came at him from behind. Tsunade isn't going to know where to look and her counter-attacks are far too slow to matter. And by the time she 'figures out' his pattern of style, her head will have already been flying.



Infinitely slower would be pushing it. As was mentioned before, Tsunade struck Madara and got her kick under his guard. She got warped to the field at lightspeed, Madara's image, position, etc would have come out of nowhere nigh instantly in her eyes and yet she still managed to do such.

Apparently she is the Kenpachi of Naruto. 

Ay will not appear in front of Tsunade lightspeed fast. If Jugo and Suigetsu can block him despite their arms also moving "infinitely slower" than Raikage's, Tsunade can punch him, as she can just regenerate any damage she takes.

(I'm sorry, but I was never really good with 6:00 and all that, what does that mean? Directly from his side?)

While it's true Ay came at Madara from his side, Ay was _already standing_ somewhat off to Madara's left when Mei attacked. He was farther to that side than any of the others standing there, enough that Mei's lava covered the view of where he was at while the other Kage remained in plain sight.

If you're saying that Ay has a tendency to slide off to the side mid-charge and attack from there, it would be a tendency Tsunade should be aware of anyway.



> He said that to her because even bifurcating her, as done with Susano'o's assaults, seemed to fail to impede her fighting ability in the slightest. That does not imply, 'You can tank every manner of attack possible', because that is simply a no-limits fallacy.
> 
> She hasn't shown the ability to regenerate from decapitation, as far as I see it.



Saying she could tank Jinton because of his statement would be a no-limits fallacy (and I don't say she can).

Looking at it from the Raikage's perspective, what type of damage can the Raikage deal that Susano'o couldn't? He uses blunt force and piercing offenses, the same offenses Susano'o was trying to use while failing to get anywhere.


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## Mithos (May 24, 2013)

I see either Oonoki or Tsunade winning this. 

If the other Kage team up against Oonoki - as they are likely to given how dangerous his jinton is - that leaves A vs Tsunade vs Gaara vs Mei. Tsunade should be able to come out on top through a battle of attrition. None of them are going to be able to put her down easily with Byakugou's regeneration
and Katsuyu protecting her. She will land her attacks eventually, and the other Kage will surely hit each other and wear themselves down with wounds - which would given Tsunade a huge advantage in finishing off a wounded opponent. 

If the Kage don't team up and take out Oonoki though, he flies out of their reach and kills them with jinton.

In a complex situation like this though, any of them has a reasonable chance of winning if they play their cards right. Tsunade and Oonoki have the biggest chances though, in my opinion.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> White Rage
> 
> None of those slugs were only shoulder-sized. Where did you get that from?



White Rage

Right before Pain struck with his Chou Shinra Tensei. 




> Infinitely slower would be pushing it. As was mentioned before, Tsunade struck Madara and got her kick under his guard. She got warped to the field at lightspeed, Madara's image, position, etc would have come out of nowhere nigh instantly in her eyes and yet she still managed to do such



We have no idea how big the distance was between the charging Madara/Muu and Raikage/Tsunade; the former could have been ten or twenty meters away (quite a large length)  and Tsunade managed to react and get a kick under his guard due to Madara being surprised at their arrival (as opposed to the former).

So yeah, it's not as impressive a feat as you think.



> Ay will not appear in front of Tsunade lightspeed fast. If Jugo and Suigetsu can block him despite their arms also moving "infinitely slower" than Raikage's, Tsunade can punch him, as she can just regenerate any damage she takes.



That is V1 Raikage, a character whose speed isn't great enough to the extent that Taka couldn't react to them. Not to mention you're only referring to attack speed; Raikage's running/Shunshin, which is what defines his speed as impressive, wasn't in play in that scenario.

V2 Raikage, on the other hand, is most definitely blitzing the shit out of Tsunade so any sort of counter that Tsunade can erect similar to the manner of Jugo/Suigetsu isn't going to be happening, I'm afraid.



> While it's true Ay came at Madara from his side, Ay was _already standing_ somewhat off to Madara's left when Mei attacked. He was farther to that side than any of the others standing there, enough that Mei's lava covered the view of where he was at while the other Kage remained in plain sight.



That's not what I'm talking about. When Onoki boosted Raikage's stats, he first charged directly at Madara/Muu in plain view, Shunshin'ed directly behind him and struck the back of Susano'o.  



> If you're saying that Ay has a tendency to slide off to the side mid-charge and attack from there, it would be a tendency Tsunade should be aware of anyway.



You still haven't addressed the issue of your premise of Tsunade being able to predict the exact moment of when Raikage will strike (which is the only way her victory being even a shred likely). I asked you, how on earth is Tsunade supposed to do that? She can't react to the guy, can't see him, yet because she's witnessed several assaults from him, means not only can she predict the trajectory of his attacks, which can come from multiple directions: behind (Madara), the left (Madara, again), or front (Jugo/Muu), but also the instant when he moves in to behead her?

Is that not even a bit far-fetched, if not absolutely ludicrous?




> Looking at it from the Raikage's perspective, what type of damage can the Raikage deal that Susano'o couldn't? He uses blunt force and piercing offenses, the same offenses Susano'o was trying to use while failing to get anywhere.



Rereading Raikage's quote, 'You're gonna die if you keep that up!' has ambiguous meanings. It does not necessarily mean he's talking about her chakra source in relation to Byakugou, but also a) Madara might find a way to permanently incapacitate her or b) Her injuries might become too severe to heal, i.e., through decapitation.

Multiple interpretations, none of them more likely than the other. False dichotomy on your part, I'm afraid.

And you asked, 'what type of damage can the Raikage deal that Susano'o couldn't?' How about aiming for the head, for starters? Don't believe Susano'o was shown to actually inflict that wound.


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## Synn (May 24, 2013)

So this is a Kage free-for-all?


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2013)

Its a tough one.

What I will say, though, is that Gaara is at a huge geographical disadvantage. The only sand he can use is that in which in his gourd, and it could easily be soaked by either the water field they're fighting on, or by Mei Terumi's suitons. Onoki has the potential to vaporize his defenses/turn them to stone, Ei can dodge them effortlessly, and Tsunade just punches her way through them. Gaara is pretty useless in this match-up.

I actually think that Mei stands a great chance at trumping this match. She has full knowledge on all of her peers, so she may be tactical enough to set up a huge mist and acidic mist combination for the very get-go of the match-up. This could be particularly damaging to Tsunade, who has never actually seen acidic mist before. She may attempt to get close to Mei and ultimately have to resort to pulling out Creation Rebirth after she begins being burned. At any rate, her acidic mist and huge suitons stops taijutsu fighters from getting close, while her hidden mist means she can move about above/beneath the water's surface without being detected. Let's not forget her lava attacks were quick enough to roughly move in co-ordinance with a V1 Ei, so they're pretty fast. Also, most obviously, Mei is in her element here, she's fighting on a _water_-field. She can produce huge suitons from the very ground her opponents are standing on.

Onoki is at a slight geographical disadvantage as well, since he can only rely on the side of the water-banks and cliff-faces to use doton attacks. Ultimately, if he summons any huge golems, they'll simply be submerged beneath the water. Onoki has to rely on his dust-cubes I believe, and with Ei and Tsunade having sufficient speed to dodge, and Mei being able to hide from his line of sight, I think the only Kage susceptible is _Gaara_. Onoki at least has the ability to fly above the battlefield and escape any chance of being blitzed by Ei or melted by Mei. 

Normally I would say Tsunade is one of the stronger Kage's, but not in this case. She can't summon Katsuyu here because, if she does, the slug will just fall beneath the surface of the presumably deep lake. Tsunade has to rely on taijutsu and regeneration here, and while certainly sufficient enough to take out Gaara, I don't think it can take out any of the other Kage. 1v1 she has a shot at taking out Ei in close quarters, but such a match would be very long and exhaustive, they won't get the chance to just fight each other whenever there are 3 other Kage on the field. Onoki can fly as high as he wants and set up rock bunshins in the event that any of the other Kage get too close. Finally, Mei will be cloaked inside a mist _(which could mess up Tsunade's ability to target any of the other Kage too)_. Tsunade can continually regenerate when she's hit by attacks but that's really all she can do, I don't think she can do damage.

Ei can take Gaara for reasons already mentioned, and if he's quick enough he may be able to kill Onoki as well. He'll have a tough time killing Tsunade, and an even harder time killing Mei. Ei will be much the same as Tsunade in my opinion, because when inside of a hidden mist taijutsu _alone_ becomes pretty tough to inflict damage with. Mei's acidic mist will be moving over the battle-field gradually, and unlike Tsunade he has no way to heal himself whenever it begins to effect him. He may kill Gaara, or Onoki at a push, but that will be his limit.

Mei wins this, in my opinion.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 24, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> White Rage
> 
> Right before Pain struck with his Chou Shinra Tensei.



Quite honestly I think we can reasonably assume that larger Katsuyus jumped to cover them again. We didn't see them when the rhino attacked either until _after_ they had been attacked.

With literally every other person we see following CST, Katsuyu is still attached to them (like it was still attached to Shizune, Ino, and Ibiki when we first saw them after the rhino assault).
White Rage
White Rage
White Rage

When we see Tsunade again we see her flipping a slab of rubble off of her with no Katsuyu anywhere in the vicinity.

I guess it is worth noting that we don't actually see Ino's group again after CST. . .



> We have no idea how big the distance was between the charging Madara/Muu and Raikage/Tsunade; the former could have been ten or twenty meters away (quite a large length)  and Tsunade managed to react and get a kick under his guard due to Madara being surprised at their arrival (as opposed to the former).
> 
> So yeah, it's not as impressive a feat as you think.



I hope this doesn't sound snarky, but we really just need to use some common sense to know that the distance was less than 10 meters, to be quite honest. (Or maybe it's just because I'm used to seeing what people look like a certain number of meters away because I'm on the track team.) Naruto and Gaara's group members are too big for the distance to be 10 meters or more, and given that Tsunade/Ay appeared _between_ Madara/Muu and Naruto/Gaara, it would be a little less still.

We also still see the light surrounding Tsunade and Ay's bodies, so they appear to have struck right as they materialized, which would be right as they could actually see anything.



> That is V1 Raikage, a character whose speed isn't great enough to the extent that Taka couldn't react to them. Not to mention you're only referring to attack speed; Raikage's running/Shunshin, which is what defines his speed as impressive, wasn't in play in that scenario.
> 
> V2 Raikage, on the other hand, is most definitely blitzing the shit out of Tsunade so any sort of counter that Tsunade can erect similar to the manner of Jugo/Suigetsu isn't going to be happening, I'm afraid.



If his running/Shunshin isn't in play when he attacked then it won't be in play here. He still has to attack after all, he can't just run around and expect Tsunade to be hurt. Ay's movement speed is great and all but what it's great _for_ is that it gets him into attack range for overwhelming opponents with close-quarters skills. In close quarters his attacking speed will be what matters, his movement speed will be rendered meaningless after he has closed the gap. And he'll be in close quarters anyway here because he's figihting another taijutsu master.

Actually, re-reading his fight with Sasuke, Raikage actually _did_ pause before _and_ after _each and every one_ of his strikes, including the one you mentioned about Enton _before Enton emerged_.

Raigyaku Suihei also hit Sasuke in his neck and didn't take his head off. Given how quickly and easily the chop got through Susano'o I don't think the defense helped anything- that would be like holding a hot stick of butter in your hand and expecting a sharp knife not to cut you after swinging it.

It also took a split sec for Sasuke to actually be sent flying, so even if Ay did go for Tsunade's head would he actually take it off and mess up her chance to counter? I doubt it.

Surely there's a reason heads only roll when Ay is using a combo with Bee. . .



> That's not what I'm talking about. When Onoki boosted Raikage's stats, he first charged directly at Madara/Muu in plain view, Shunshin'ed directly behind him and struck the back of Susano'o.



Since the point of their maneuver was to build up Raikage's momentum before making him heavier, couldn't that have just been because he needed to re-build said momentum after he stopped to strike Muu?



> You still haven't addressed the issue of your premise of Tsunade being able to predict the exact moment of when Raikage will strike (which is the only way her victory being even a shred likely). I asked you, how on earth is Tsunade supposed to do that? She can't react to the guy, can't see him, yet because she's witnessed several assaults from him, means not only can she predict the trajectory of his attacks, which can come from multiple directions: behind (Madara), the left (Madara, again), or front (Jugo/Muu), but also the instant when he moves in to behead her?
> 
> Is that not even a bit far-fetched, if not absolutely ludicrous?



She can see and react to him like how everyone else sees and reacts to him, he doesn't strike as fast as he moves. Everyone _sees_ him before he hits them, he's dangerous because in _most_ scenarios, even if his foe does react while he's winding up his wide strike they won't be able to do anything of actual use. Unfortunately for him, Tsunade can.

And no I don't believe it's far-fetched or absolutely ludicrous for Tsunade to trade shots with Ay since Sasori, who holds a significant speed advantage over Sakura, also uses attacks that can come from multiple directions and yet his attacks were predicted after she'd witnessed his assaults.

Ay >> Sasori while Tsunade >>>>> Sakura.

And again, Katsuyu helps if she's there.



> Rereading Raikage's quote, 'You're gonna die if you keep that up!' has ambiguous meanings. It does not necessarily mean he's talking about her chakra source in relation to Byakugou, but also a) Madara might find a way to permanently incapacitate her or b) Her injuries might become too severe to heal, i.e., through decapitation.
> 
> Multiple interpretations, none of them more likely than the other. False dichotomy on your part, I'm afraid.
> 
> And you asked, 'what type of damage can the Raikage deal that Susano'o couldn't?' How about aiming for the head, for starters? Don't believe Susano'o was shown to actually inflict that wound.



. . .I must have read a different translation. The one I was remembering said "death aside, you'll eventually exhaust yourself" or something along those lines.

Actually, I found what I'm guessing I read White Rage

And there's a similar one here White Rage

If being bifurcated while in base didn't kill her I'm honestly going to keep doubting that removing her head would with Byakugo on. If Ay can even remove her head.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Normally I would say Tsunade is one of the stronger Kage's, but not in this case. She can't summon Katsuyu here because, if she does, the slug will just fall beneath the surface of the presumably deep lake.



Katsuyu has the ability to mold chakra in order to stand on water just like any of the toads or her summoner. Just because she doesn't have a literal "foot", doesn't make her more susceptible to sinking.

Actually, Mei's acidic mist doesn't seem to obscure sight as heavily as a normal Kirigakure no Jutsu. Either Tsunade or Ay would be able to get through to her before they take any truly inhibiting injuries.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu has the ability to mold chakra in order to stand on water just like any of the toads or her summoner. Just because she doesn't have a literal "foot", doesn't make her more susceptible to sinking.



I dunno, the idea of a limbless animal walking on water does seem a little weird. But your argument holds merit so, I can't really contest that. 



> Actually, Mei's acidic mist doesn't seem to obscure sight as heavily as a normal Kirigakure no Jutsu. Either Tsunade or Ay would be able to get through to her before they take any truly inhibiting injuries.



Which is why it would be to her advantage to use Kirigakure no jutsu as well. Mei has taken several strikes from giant Susano'o punches so, I don't imagine her dying or falling out of consciousness even in the event that Ei did land a strike. Granted Tsunade would kill her upon impact, but Tsunade isn't as fast, and from 40 meters Mei could certainly blast her backwards with a giant water dragon or water barrier. The fact that they're fighting on a water field only adds further merit to my argument - where Mei can probably produce even greater attacks.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 24, 2013)

True Mei did survive Susano'o's punches, but Ay's strikes are more focused (since his hand is laughably small in comparison to Madara's Susano'o) while he possesses strength at the very least comparable to, if not superior to Susano'o.


And Katsuyu is bigger than Gamabunta, who is 100m. Tsunade could just summon her _on top of_ Mei.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2013)

That's true. Still, even with less concentrated blows Susano'o strikes were capable of knocking Mei a pretty good distance after she was hit [1] Its clear that they packed a lot of power behind them. Ei's _regular blows_ shouldn't actually inflict any more damage. If he landed a power bomb on her, however . . well that would be a different story.

Haha, I think that was just an inconsistency with his size. If Gamabunta and Katsuyu were summoned beside each other they would be the same size. In fact, I've worked out that about 35-40 humans (_the ones standing with Tsunade_ are about as tall as her, which is 1.6 meters) standing on top of each other, would equate the same height of Katsuyu, putting at a height between 55-65 meters tall. That would, or _should_, make Gamabunta a similar height.

I don't contest the notion that she could summon Katsuyu on top of Mei but I'm not sure if she could actually crush her, the VotE seems pretty deep.​​


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## I Blue I (May 24, 2013)

Mei was only able to take those Susano'o strikes so well because she was able to melt them a little bit with what was presumably her corrosive mist.


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## Doge (May 24, 2013)

It depends on who the kages double or triple team first as they have manga knowledge.

Onoki will be singled out first because he has a guaranteed one shot ability that would take out Tsunade, Mei, and Gaara.   He gets blitzed like mad, and then the next target would either be Raikage or Tsunade.  Raikage would probably get targeted first, but not after hurting Tsunade.  Raikage dies and Gaara/Mei both attack Tsunade.  She gets overwhelmed and then Gaara finishes Mei.

It really depends on who's perceived as the greatest threat to the others.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

kresh said:


> It depends on who the kages double or triple team first as they have manga knowledge.
> 
> Onoki will be singled out first because he has a guaranteed one shot ability that would take out Tsunade, Mei, and Gaara.   He gets blitzed like mad, and then the next target would either be Raikage or Tsunade.  Raikage would probably get targeted first, but not after hurting Tsunade.  Raikage dies and Gaara/Mei both attack Tsunade.  She gets overwhelmed and then Gaara finishes Mei.
> 
> It really depends on who's perceived as the greatest threat to the others.



Gaara's completely out of his element. He only has the sand in his gourd to fight which is less than what you'd find in your average sand band. Meanwhile, the Mizukage is fighting with a water fall and can just wet the sand and blast it apart with her advantage (if water can break apart solid rock, I have no doubt it can break powdered rock). Mei should win this, if due to the location, but I suppose one could build an argument for Tsunade winning it too if she uses Katsuyu cleverly, or Onoki on the off chance the kage don't immediately try to eliminate him.


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## FlamingRain (May 24, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's true. Still, even with less concentrated blows Susano'o strikes were capable of knocking Mei a pretty good distance after she was hit [1] Its clear that they packed a lot of power behind them. Ei's _regular blows_ shouldn't actually inflict any more damage. If he landed a power bomb on her, however . . well that would be a different story.
> 
> Haha, I think that was just an inconsistency with his size. If Gamabunta and Katsuyu were summoned beside each other they would be the same size. In fact, I've worked out that about 35-40 humans (_the ones standing with Tsunade_ are about as tall as her, which is 1.6 meters) standing on top of each other, would equate the same height of Katsuyu, putting at a height between 55-65 meters tall. That would, or _should_, make Gamabunta a similar height.
> 
> I don't contest the notion that she could summon Katsuyu on top of Mei but I'm not sure if she could actually crush her, the VotE seems pretty deep.​​



I'm pretty sure Raikage hits more than paper bomb hard. . .Sakura tanked a paper bomb, but nobody thought Sasuke would survive when Raikage proved to be strong enough to make 50 foot deep holes in the ground in his fight with Sasuke.

Tall or long?  Katsuyu is longer than she is tall. And looking at how small Tsunade is compared to her, and then looking at how small my friends look at the start of the 100m dash when I'm standing at the finish line- 100 meters in length seems pretty accurate.

Katsuyu might also be able to absorb Mei when she lands in an attempt to suffocate her if the concussive force of her landing is lessened too much by the water to kill or knock her out.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm pretty sure Raikage hits more than paper bomb hard. . .Sakura tanked a paper bomb, but nobody thought Sasuke would survive when Raikage proved to be strong enough to make 50 foot deep holes in the ground in his fight with Sasuke.



Yeh, but the Raikage was using his entire body to perform that feat. A regular punch doesn't pack nearly as much power as one of his power bombs does. Also, Sasuke's smaller and less powerful Susano'o was punching through walls and creating craters in the ground, Madara's larger and more muscular one should definitely have more physical power. To say it was only as strong as a paper bomb is underestimating his Susano'o's physical strength (they were used for taijutsu purposes, after all).



> Tall or long?  Katsuyu is longer than she is tall. And looking at how small Tsunade is compared to her, and then looking at how small my friends look at the start of the 100m dash when I'm standing at the finish line- 100 meters in length seems pretty accurate.



Tall, which is what ultimately matters since she'll be relying on height rather than length. If she's 55-65 meters in height, then being almost double that in length seems a little hard to believe, since that would mean she's pretty skinny, like a snake. She might be 70 or 80 meters long at a push, but I can't see her being any more than that.



> Katsuyu might also be able to absorb Mei when she lands in an attempt to suffocate her if the concussive force of her landing is lessened too much by the water to kill or knock her out.



Well, yes but, the tactic you're giving is OOC for Tsunade to use. Tsunade has never tried to summon Katsuyu on anyone before, and its also unknown if she would even summon Katsuyu at the beginning of the match anyway. Mei will probably have set up a Kirigakure no Jutsu by the time Tsunade runs out of attacking options and resorts to trying to summon Katsuyu on people. She may also be preoccupied with other Kage to even focus her attention on Mei at all. There are a lot of factors to be considered in such a huge battle like this.​​


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## FlamingRain (May 24, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tall, which is what ultimately matters since she'll be relying on height rather than length. If she's 55-65 meters in height, then being almost double that in length seems a little hard to believe, since that would mean she's pretty skinny, like a snake. She might be 70 or 80 meters long at a push, but I can't see her being any more than that.



If she's trying to crush someone she'll be trying to cover as much of the surface as possible.

Considering that Katsuyu doesn't seem to raise more than half of her body if that off of the ground when she's looking around _the ones standing with Tsunade_ _the ones standing with Tsunade_, her being twice as long as she is tall seems logical.

If a person lays flat on their stomach and raises up their chest to look around, they won't be even half as tall as the actual length of their body.

But I'm lost on how that would make her skinny? 



> Well, yes but, the tactic you're giving is OOC for Tsunade to use. Tsunade has never tried to summon Katsuyu on anyone before, and its also unknown if she would even summon Katsuyu at the beginning of the match anyway. Mei will probably have set up a Kirigakure no Jutsu by the time Tsunade runs out of attacking options and resorts to trying to summon Katsuyu on people. She may also be preoccupied with other Kage to even focus her attention on Mei at all. There are a lot of factors to be considered in such a huge battle like this.[/indent][/justify]



It may be OOC for Tsunade, but Katsuyu herself not so much. And the slug will act without Tsunade's active command to help her master.

If it did happen, it would be in response to being unable to find Mei in her mist.

But it's true there could be a lot of other factors in a fight such as this.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Considering that Katsuyu doesn't seem to raise more than half of her body if that off of the ground when she's looking around _the ones standing with Tsunade_ _the ones standing with Tsunade_, her being twice as long as she is tall seems logical.



I disagree. About a third of her body; if even that, is being elevated off the ground in those scans. Most of her body is lying flat. In the scan I gave, however, _most_ of her body is in the air, and about a third of her body (again . . if even that) is flat on the ground. It seems more 70/30 than it does 50/50.



> If a person lays flat on their stomach and raises up their chest to look around, they won't be even half as tall as the actual length of their body.



Indeed, but Katsuyu was lying pretty flat on the instance you gave, whereas on the other two instances she's been summoned in the manga she's been standing upright and not lying flat.



> But I'm lost on how that would make her skinny?



If she was lying down and elevating a third of her body into the air then it wouldn't. But if she was standing upright and was at a height of 55-65 meters, then it would not be logical to assume she was almost double that in length, since . . well, she only has a third of her body not accounted for, so she should only increase in measurement by about 20 meters.



> It may be OOC for Tsunade, but Katsuyu herself not so much. And the slug will act without Tsunade's active command to help her master.



But Katsuyu won't be able to jump on or absorb anyone unless Tsunade summons her, which she may not even do at the beginning of the match. Furthermore, its OOC for Tsunade to use the slug to crush people. Katsuyu could try and body slam Mei but she could probably blast her away with a big enough suiton.



> If it did happen, it would be in response to being unable to find Mei in her mist.



But she can't target Mei if she can't find her.​​


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## kaneflame (May 24, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> *Gaara's completely out of his element. He only has the sand in his gourd to fight which is less than what you'd find in your average sand band.* Meanwhile, the Mizukage is fighting with a water fall and can just wet the sand and blast it apart with her advantage (if water can break apart solid rock, I have no doubt it can break powdered rock). Mei should win this, if due to the location, but I suppose one could build an argument for Tsunade winning it too if she uses Katsuyu cleverly, or Onoki on the off chance the kage don't immediately try to eliminate him.



There is earth everywhere... it's takes no effort/time for him to break down minerals and create additional sand.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

kaneflame said:


> There is earth everywhere... it's takes no effort/time for him to break down minerals and create additional sand.



I am aware that the valley of the end is made up of rock, but I am also aware that time-wise, it'd take a little while. We've only seen him grind up materials against Kimimaro, and Gaara doesn't have the time in this circumstance for that, with A's lightning quick attacks, Onoki's ability to simply disintegrate the sand, Tsunade being able to punch through it and Mei being able to make that sand mostly useless with her water attacks. Gaara's more out of his element than a gay man at hooters, enough said.


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## joshhookway (May 24, 2013)

Onouki flies up and uses Jinton laser to kill everyone


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## kaneflame (May 24, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> I am aware that the valley of the end is made up of rock, but I am also aware that time-wise, it'd take a little while. We've only seen him grind up materials against Kimimaro, and Gaara doesn't have the time in this circumstance for that, with A's lightning quick attacks, Onoki's ability to simply disintegrate the sand, Tsunade being able to punch through it and Mei being able to make that sand mostly useless with her water attacks. Gaara's more out of his element than a gay man at hooters, enough said.



Gaara can attack, fly, defend, use clones and create sand simultaneously. The sphere of sand made from his gourd is enough to accomplish these tasks. Don't forget he also intercepted and blocked A's V2 leg drop and Sasuke's Enton and further Enton's later with just gourd sand don't underestimate it. The time it takes for him to create sand isn't anywhere as long or difficult as people make it seem it is. He only uses an amount that is necessary. *Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he hasn't made it* as proven with the kimimaro fight. The new sand he creates is even stronger than his regular chakra infused sand. Water by itself is not his weakness, oily-water that the 2nd Mizukage used is along with piercing lightning attacks.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

kaneflame said:


> Gaara can attack, fly, defend, use clones and create sand simultaneously. The sphere of sand made from his gourd is enough to accomplish this. Don't forget he also intercepted and blocked A's V2 leg drop and Sasuke's Enton and further Enton's later with just gourd sand don't underestimate it. The time it takes for him to make sand isn't anywhere as long or difficult as people make it seem it is. He only uses an amount that is necessary. *Just because he hasn't used it doesn't mean he hasn't made it* as proven with the kimimaro fight. And water by itself is not his weakness, oily-water that the 2nd Mizukage used is along with piercing lightning attacks.



Gaara's attacks can be avoided or blasted away by any of the Kage. Flight with Onoki is dangerous and Mei can still attack from the air, and Katsuyu's acidic blasts might be able to reach him. He's only safe from the Raikage in the air. 

A's V2 Leg Drop was from the air, meaning that it wasn't A's speed at all, it was gravity and all objects all at the same rate. Sasuke's Enton's movement speed =/= the jutsu's activation speed. his gourd sand, by itself, isn't necessarily bad, but against 4 other Kage leveled ninja, it's like getting 2, 4, 6, 10 and 5 of all different suits against royal flushes. He's simply outclassed and he's definitely not going out before Tsunade and her regeneration and Onoki in general. 

And he did have sand he used against Kimimaro but he can't make sand instantly. He said he was grinding up sand from the start and that amount didn't dent Kimimaro in the slightest. And, water can blast away solid rock at high pressures, a less solid form of rock isn't going to be perofrming too hot against it. Not to mention, wet sand isn't as fluid and flexible in application as regular sand is. So, there's that too.


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## kaneflame (May 24, 2013)

Butterfly said:


> Gaara's attacks can be avoided or blasted away by any of the Kage. Flight with Onoki is dangerous and Mei can still attack from the air, and Katsuyu's acidic blasts might be able to reach him. He's only safe from the Raikage in the air.
> 
> *1) A's V2 Leg Drop was from the air, meaning that it wasn't A's speed at all, it was gravity and all objects all at the same rate. Sasuke's Enton's movement speed =/= the jutsu's activation speed.* his gourd sand, by itself, isn't necessarily bad, but against 4 other Kage leveled ninja, it's like getting 2, 4, 6, 10 and 5 of all different suits against royal flushes. He's simply outclassed and he's definitely not going out before Tsunade and her regeneration and Onoki in general.
> 
> *2) And he did have sand he used against Kimimaro but he can't make sand instantly. He said he was grinding up sand from the start and that amount didn't dent Kimimaro in the slightest. 3) And, water can blast away solid rock at high pressures, a less solid form of rock isn't going to be perofrming too hot against it. Not to mention, wet sand isn't as fluid and flexible in application as regular sand is. So, there's that too.*



1) I was referencing the sands defense. 





kaneflame said:


> blocked A's V2 leg drop and Sasuke's Enton and further Enton's later


2) But that's the point I am making,
- He's creating sand while defending and attacking against kimimaro.
- Kimimaro makes remark
- Gaara uses the amount of sand he thinks will kill Kimimaro with Sabaku Kyu.
- Kimimaro survives, makes another comment
- Gaara uses more of the sand that he created prior with Ryusa Bakuryu.
The fight continues that way until he runs out of chakra. Just because he didn't use quick Ryusa Bakuryu when he caught kimimaro's feet instead of Sabaku Kyu doesn't mean he couldn't. He used what he thought was necessary but when that failed he used a bigger jutsu that required more sand but *he had already quickly made it.*

3) Sand is not solid rock it can be reapplied with more sand when it's blasted away or just soaked with water. Sand that gets dispersed can always be reformed instantly. Only the 2nd Mizukage was able to prevent that which is why it took much more sand than necessary.

If all four kages attack him at once he won't be able to do anything and this debate doesn't matters. But if it's just 2 not involving Onoki he can preform well.


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## Doge (May 24, 2013)

Well, whichever character is deemed the strongest by their fans in this thread dies first.  If Tsunade's really superior, she gets triple teamed.


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## Marik Swift (May 24, 2013)

Damn, haven't posted in NBD in like a year, but I'll keep this short. To start, as aforementioned, Ei's one dimentional fighting style doesn't permits him much of a advantage in a fight with kage's who all have a variety of different fighting styles, each filled with techniques with varying advantages of speed, range, complexity, etc. That said, he is certainly unfavorable to win this match.

Gaara has a good chance in this match, but not much. While he may have the best range in this match, his lack of flexibility when fighting opponents who can avoid most of his attacks with varying techniques will make him suffer in this match. He'll generally be going all over on the battlefield, while he'll never actually take anyone down since his battles typical require him to focus on one person in order to win since his attacks are slow, slightly predictable, and can be avoided with different varies of techniques.

Onoki. His flight easily permits him the ability to stay out of the range of this match for a large portion of time and just cause havoc on the battlefield from above. Of course though, such long range attacks will work against most of the kages, especially one's like Ei and Tsunade who have good speed feats, and Tsunade has the advantage of resilience. That said, either the kages will find a way to get to him (Gaara through his own flight method, Mei through some long range techniques or even Ei and Tsunade since they should have amazing jumping capabilities giving their strength).

Mei has a good chance here giving her advantage in terms of flexibility, since her abilities grants her the power needed to take down any of the kages. Although, I'm not much in favor of her odds here giving her lacks of feats. Her speed feats thus far aren't impressive as to suggest she can keep up with the likes of Ei, or even Tsunade, or use enough intellect to see through some of the kage's more complex techniques.

Tsunade, while she has probably the best feature in this type of match where resilience is needed, she too lacks a bit of versatility. Her typicals 'run and smash' fighting style isn't favorable here since there is someone like Ei who can outmatch if she was to try such a typical fighting style.

Overall, I'll say Onoki maybe has the best chance here - if he was not to use his techniques sparingly, which he likely will since this is IC. Tsuande though has a high chance here giving her mentioned ability to last through the entire havoc. Although, I won't take my word as gold yet since I've yet to see some of the earlier post - especially the typical great posts by the legendary Tsunade .​


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## Butterfly (May 25, 2013)

kaneflame said:


> 1) I was referencing the sands defense.


Well, we're dealing with force here. Not burns, of which Mei would most likely use water ninjutsu to blast it away. A didn't have any force because Force = Mass x Acceleration, and Acceleration because of gravity (9.8) is far below what A can manage with his direct punches (as he accelerates astronomically quickly). 



> 2) But that's the point I am making,
> - He's creating sand while defending and attacking against kimimaro.
> - Kimimaro makes remark
> - Gaara uses the amount of sand he thinks will kill Kimimaro with Sabaku Kyu.
> ...


That still doesn't indicate he has the speed to instantly grind sand like you're implying, nor would it be enough to take out any of the kage with the speed you're implying. 




> 3) Sand is not solid rock it can be reapplied with more sand when it's blasted away or just soaked with water. Sand that gets dispersed can always be reformed instantly. Only the 2nd Mizukage was able to prevent that which is why it took much more sand than necessary.
> 
> If all four kages attack him at once he won't be able to do anything and this debate doesn't matters. But if it's just 2 not involving Onoki he can preform well.


Mixing sand and wet sand just makes wetter which, again, isn't fluid nor is it battle ready. It won't be able to be reformed instantly if it's ultimately destroyed - see Onoki's jinton, and, if Raikage/or Tsunade makes it through the sand, Gaara's not going to be standing from the impact. Tsunade's punch with torn muscles knocked Kabuto to the ground, and I doubt the Raikage's raw physical strength is anything for Gaara's body to adequately tank. 

I disagree with the latter though. Mizukage can outright fuq him up in this match  - doubly so if it's with Tsunade or the Raikage. The Raikage and Tsunade would also be a horrible combination for him too, as one can breach his sand and the second one can follow up with an attack that's necessary. Not to mention, they both can attack in tandem with seemingly no communication, as we've seen with both of them getting out of the Heavenly Transfer technique. The location literally makes Gaara the weakest link. This battle's going to be quick paced and his sand is going to get destroyed and tossed about or dissipated again and again and he's not going to be able to keep up with that with multiple people and fights going around. He's not making it beyond Onoki, Tsunade or Mei and one could debate A if they so wanted to, but I'm liable to give it to Gaara if that's the case.


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## Kazekage94 (May 25, 2013)

Either Gaara or Mei wins. Kresh has the right idea. They will triple and double team through greatest threat first. Gaara is not weak at all but he will not be targeted first.


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## Doge (May 25, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> Either Gaara or Mei wins. Kresh has the right idea. They will triple and double team through greatest threat first. Gaara is not weak at all but he will not be targeted first.



Exactly, he's not much of a threat until he grinds his sand.  Onoki is the clear threat, with Tsunade and Raikage coming up next.


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## Veo (May 25, 2013)

Outcome of the battle would be a fight between Gaara and Oonoki.

Flying gives a HUGE advantage. And don't tell me that they would not go airborne IC, because this is about surviving.


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

I don't see Onoki getting too high up before Ay can get to him to be honest.

Mei's suitons make Gaara fall back down once his sand gets soaked and becomes heavier.


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## Mithos (May 25, 2013)

kresh said:


> Well, whichever character is deemed the strongest by their fans in this thread dies first.  If Tsunade's really superior, she gets triple teamed.



Why would they triple team her? 

She's not the biggest, or even second biggest, offensive threat. 

Her high chances of winning come from her regeneration , Katsuyu being able to protect her, and her immense stamina, allowing her to potentially survive and outlast her opponents.


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Why would they triple team her?
> 
> She's not the biggest, or even second biggest, offensive threat.
> 
> Her high chances of winning come from her regeneration , Katsuyu being able to protect her, and her immense stamina, allowing her to potentially survive and outlast her opponents.



Targeting Tsunade after Onoki is not outside the realm of possibility.

The shockwave of her strikes alone will create water walls as big as Mei's, and unlike hers, it would be omnidirectional. Ay doesn't hit as hard as she does, Gaara's amount of available sand is insufficient to be a real threat, etc.

She's more likely to be targetted than Mei, certainly, and about as likely as Ay.

Though I think after Onoki is gone they'll go ahead and pick off Gaara because it will be so quick and easy in this location.


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## Doge (May 25, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Why would they triple team her?
> 
> She's not the biggest, or even second biggest, offensive threat.
> 
> Her high chances of winning come from her regeneration , Katsuyu being able to protect her, and her immense stamina, allowing her to potentially survive and outlast her opponents.



Then the kages can easily determine this and go after her to prevent her from outlasting them.

What good would killing Raikage be if Tsunade would beat both Gaara and Mei through regenerating?  The kages all have full knowledge on her, so they'd naturally know they'd have more chance of winning if Tsunade dies since it would be clear she's the most survivable.  

Offense isn't the only thing here.  If the biggest offensive threats are dead, yet Tsunade can survive everything, then the biggest threats therefore weren't elimated.  So clearly, Onoki dies first followed by the Raikage/Tsunade.  Raikage will attack Tsunade next while Gaara and Mei will try to kill them both.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 25, 2013)

I'm inclined to give the fight to Ōnoki, but Mei holds a profuse advantage within the terrain; there are many factors to consider, however.


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## Doge (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> I'm inclined to give the fight to Ōnoki, but Mei holds a profuse advantage within the terrain; there are many factors to consider, however.



It's pretty accepted that Onoki is first on the hit list for the rest of the kage.


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## Mithos (May 26, 2013)

kresh said:


> Then the kages can easily determine this and go after her to prevent her from outlasting them.
> 
> What good would killing Raikage be if Tsunade would beat both Gaara and Mei through regenerating?  The kages all have full knowledge on her, so they'd naturally know they'd have more chance of winning if Tsunade dies since it would be clear she's the most survivable.
> 
> Offense isn't the only thing here.  If the biggest offensive threats are dead, yet Tsunade can survive everything, then the biggest threats therefore weren't elimated.  So clearly, Onoki dies first followed by the Raikage/Tsunade.  Raikage will attack Tsunade next while Gaara and Mei will try to kill them both.



You have to take into account that it is still a free-for-all. Even with teamwork, they are still going to be attacking each other. Complete trust and focusing only on one opponent is going to result in someone they had a "truce" with stabbing them in the back. 

So yes it is possible that they could triple team her. But why would A do that if it's just going to result in him falling to Mei and Gaara immediately after? Mei and Gaara aren't the only ones who can make truces. 

I see this match as a huge cluster fuck. There will be some coordinated attacks, but there is also going to be a lot of everyone attacking everyone.

By your logic, the other Kage may think that Gaara and Mei have the best chances of winning because of their defensive abilities and target them early as well.


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## Jad (May 26, 2013)

I want to say either Ei or Onoki. People have this mind-set that Onoki can just spam Jinton, I think I made a list before, but he can probably only throw out 3 Jintons in battle. Because on panel, his only done like one Jinton per fight. I mean Muu couldn't do Jinton when he was split-in-half, so to me that suggest the technique does take some juice. With Gai, I am always forced to stick within guidelines; Gai can only do so and so technique in gates, we have no idea how many more he can do so and so). So I don't see why other characters get a pass.

1. One against Sasuke
2. One against Muu (but he did use Kagebunshin Doton's, a Doton punch and a light-weight technique on Muu and the Meteor in the Edo Kage fight)
3. One Jinton against Madara with Tsunade's help (but he did use light-weight technique on panel against 5 Sasunos)

This is why I think Ei might be able to dodge all Jinton's and force Onoki to useless doton technique. I don't think his going to have a hard time hitting Tsunade or Mei. Gaara can be kept up by Onoki's own flying, and Jinton just eats anything thrown at him. Hence by conclusion. Perhaps prime Onoki would do a much better job.


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## FlamingRain (May 26, 2013)

I've thought about that, too.

Muu's being unable to Jinton while split makes me wonder if Jinton is like Kakashi's Raikiri in part 1 where it has a set limit whether you use other jutsu or not.


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## FlamingRain (May 28, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> By that logic, the ANBU



From another thread.
"Because if that's not why, what happened to the other Anbu??? Unless something happened like Tsunade got knocked into this particular one and her boobs- I mean own body cushioned the impact in place of a Katsuyu clone, thus letting him survive. Then when he pushed the slab away, he noticed that Tsunade's seal was gone. (Which could actually be the case- this Anbu had the most spiky hair, and the other Anbu that we see beside Tsunade before CST are ironically he ones we never see again. If we couldn't see this one, chances are he was behind her.)"



> Never mind the fact that even if we do, it'd be an *outlier*.



Well. . .we don't have anything that contradicts it, do we? Tsunade's only ever been injured by piercing attacks like Kusanagi and like Susano'o's blades.

We haven't seen any other blunt force trauma do better against Tsunade than CST. Ironically, she and Ay were the only two Kage not crapping their pants after seeing PS's slash. expand

Now before this turns into "then she can't ever hurt Ay", the blunt force behind Tsunade's punches is all concentrated into her fist, which takes up a laughably small area in comparison to CST or a PS slash. She packs enough force behind that strike that it even translates over into piercing power (as seen when she flew straight through the hole she punched in Madara instead of just sending him flying). There's also her inferior part 1 self stabbing a fissure in the ground with the force of her finger, but just from the Madara punch she displayed more "piercing potential" than Sasuke's Chidori. . .which hurt Ay.

Yes concentration matters as has been shown with Ay's daddy.

And we've also seen the damage dealt by Raigyaku Suihei to Madara's Susano'o and the damage dealt by Tsunade's punch. If Raigyaku Suihei is enough to hurt Ay- so is Tsunade's punch.

Though considering how huge CST is in comparison- Ay would survive.



> Perhaps, but I'm still not seeing at all how this grants Tsunade capability to react to a V2 Raikage



. . . .Ay was never casually blitzing a Mangekyo Sharingan user. Sasuke _reacted_ to his sudden appearance with Enton both before Raigyaku Suihei and before Guillotine Drop.

Heck, Onoki had to _react_ to a _lightened_ V2 Raikage's movements in order to time Chokajugan no Jutsu correctly, and has not shown to be more reflexive than Tsunade has- she actually reacted to Madara's Katons before he did.

Let's pay attention to Ay's words. . .he said Naruto was the second to _dodge_ V2, not the first person to _react_.

To attack Madara pretty much the instant she materialized and get her kick under his guard (considering that he would have become visible at lightspeed in her eyes) impresses _me_ enough to think she could _react_ to Ay. Not _dodge_, _react_.



> timing and swinging



Except that's not what he was going to do against Sasuke at all in V2. Check that page again, Raikage appears in the first panel with his arm reared back, rears it back even more in the next panel, and _only then_ does Sasuke use Enton to prompt Raikage to pause again.

"Timing and swinging the chop just as he passes a target's vitals" would mean Sasuke's defense would have already crumbled in the very first panel Ay ever appeared in again.

So either that's not how Ay fights or he sucks balls at his timing and swinging.

Ay's statement there doesn't necessitate that he attacks _while_ running/using Shunshin. It's called inertia. If he's running in V1 and suddenly stops his punch is still going to carry more force than him doing the same in base. Same with V2, cuz that's faster than V1, sudden stop followed by strike = strike is still stronger.



> *1.)* After Shi blinded Sasuke.



We saw through C's illusion what Ay would have done had he gone it alone. There was absolutely no need for Darui, who we've seen act of his own accord without Ay's command (seen in the Suiton he used to protect him despite it being obvious Ay would have tanked that blade).

For all we know he could have started moving before Ay did and they just got there at the same time because Ay is faster.

There is no lack of resistance. Ay will also have to attempt to overpower his physical superior in Tsunade, and her Anti-ST chakra to the feet strategy.



> *2.)* Against Jugo.



Inertia, bruh.

Otherwise, why would Jugo be the single example of Ay rocketing into a wall with somebody?

Ay didn't do that with Madara, and he couldn't have just decided to stop after hitting him because he was in mid-air.



> *3.)* Sasuke vs V1 Raikage.



Had he not stalled he'd have kept going and messed up Sasuke's thrust with Chidori, as he would have been too close for Sasuke to fully perform the arm thrust like he did. . .and that didn't happen.



> *4.) *Enton



expand
No. Look at the page. Ay appears in one panel,rears back more next, and _then_ Enton. He paused _before Enton ever came into the picture_.

And how do you know he didn't pause after? Because by the time Sasuke flew and hit the ground, in other words some measure of time had passed, he jumped?



> cannot help but be sent flying instead of having Raikage trying to overpower her, ala Suigetsu and Jugo.



Well against Tsunade he'll likely be trying to overpower her Anti-ST chakra to the feet strategy + superior strength.

She won't fly.



> then Sasuke's neck > Susano'o's ribcage



Clearly. 

Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o is trash. Danzo's futon got through it's elevated forms when they couldn't even get through fodder in the woods.

Had the chop lost all of its momentum it would slow down to an almost halt- which would have allowed Sasuke to duck or something.

It has taken more than one *AXE SWING* to remove a person's head before in real life, so I don't have a problem with Raigyaku Suihei failing to remove someone's head when a supposed diamond cutting sword can't get far past her shoulder.

I'm almost certain Raikage was in base when he cut his arm off. And. . .considering that chakra scalpels can cut people open (not surprising) and apparently still not take off their heads when brought across someone's throat like Kabuto did Orochimaru. . .



> talking about?



Absorbing most of the impact would have stalled Raikage's hit, and allowed Sasuke to move. . .but that's not what happened, so I doubt it absorbed most of that hit.



> to rebuild momentum



To rebuild _enough_ momentum.

Having a greater distance to rebuild momentum over would result in more force behind Ay's strike. That's why it was a good idea to take the long route rather than go straight at Madara and possibly achieve nothing.



> In *V2*



Who the heck have we even seen V2 Ay even blitz? Nobody, not a single dang person of note. Ay tested Naruto by seeing if he could _dodge_ V2, he said nothing about simply _reacting_ to it. Which leads me to believe that people actually reacting to V2 is no surprise for Ay, so I don't see why Tsunade couldn't _react_.

Actually. . .why would he even go V2 against Tsunade to start if he doesn't go V2 against freaking Madara Uchiha or 5 Madara clones.



> Say the same about V2 Ay.



Needles? Hiruko's needles? Which apparently weren't slow as fuck since Sakura at that point still needed Chiyo?

Or the enormous spires of Satetsu (that temporarily blocked Chiyo's LoS with Sakura so controlling her is out) that Sasori rained down on the cave at random thanks to them contantly rejecting each other because of opposing magnetic forces? Which logically would have caused several to come at Sakura from behind? Yet she still managed to predict enough of it to avoid major injury? 

The same about V2 Ay. 



> translations?
> 
> And *beheading* her won't work?



Eh, I wouldn't know.  I would have liked to have seen what the official Viz translations said, but that volume was no longer in stock last time I was out. 

But. . .here we have four translations. Two point towards a headshot not killing her anyway, the other two could have ambiguous meanings which aren't more likely to mean one thing than another, as you've said. But we don't have another two translations that suggest a headshot killing her.

2- 2- 0. The evidence leans more towards her surviving than not it seems. 

We've no other indications that such an injury would down her either. We do on the other hand have Tsunade's claim that she would never die because she can reconstruct _any_ damaged parts of her body, backed up by the databook when speaking of an imperfected jutsu.

Sans obliteration (where there would be no body to reconstruct herself from), the jutsu's manga-given limit is running out of chakra. There's a reason Kishimoto has consistently caused Tsunade's "immortality mode" to run out before she was ever in danger of being killed.

I can't get on board with Kishi hyping up a character to be a pseudo immortal only for the regeneration that makes them such to be overcome by a split second of thought and aiming a little higher than normal.

This is the woman who can heal damaged souls for crying out loud, and that before anyone knew about her ultimate medical ninjutsu.

I can truthfully say that I would not be in the absolute least bit surprised if we saw Tsunade's head get destroyed only for a new one to grow back, or severed only for muscles to reach out and reattach it like Orochimaru's snakes. I'm willing to bet Madara left that log there in case that _did_ happen were Tsunade able to activate Byakugo again.



> her chakra network will cease



Except that you shut down chakra by severing the connections to their heart, not their head- as was shown by Kabuto when he cut off Naruto's ties to his chakra by doing just that. SInce Naruto's seal was in that area- his connection to the Kyuubi was cut off as well.

Now Tsunade has a chakra reserve separate from her standard one, like Naruto does. But in her case, the seal extends across her _entire_ body as opposed to just a circle on her stomach next to where the normal chakra center is anyway- so her chakra network should be repaired as long as she is not nuked off of the map.


----------



## Alita (May 28, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Chou Shinra Tensei: 200 megatons.
> 
> Perfect Susano'o slash: 132 megatons.
> 
> Your pick.



Madara's slashes in perfect susano are concentrated enough to cut through hashi's wood which no sold a bijuu bomb. So madara's slashes should be at least as strong as the bijuu bomb which is sitting at 4 gigatons and far above CST.

Although tsunade was only able to survive CST due to katsuyu. It's more of a durability/survivability feat for the slug over tsunade herself.


----------



## Empathy (May 28, 2013)

Onoki only having three shots with jinton is low-balling him a bit.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> From another thread.
> "Because if that's not why, what happened to the other Anbu??? Unless something happened like Tsunade got knocked into this particular one and her boobs- I mean own body cushioned the impact in place of a Katsuyu clone, thus letting him survive. Then when he pushed the slab away, he noticed that Tsunade's seal was gone. (Which could actually be the case- this Anbu had the most spiky hair, and the other Anbu that we see beside Tsunade before CST are ironically he ones we never see again. If we couldn't see this one, chances are he was behind her.)"



Except Tsunade isn't like Katsuyu, a boneless invertebrae who would thereby be unaffected by force and thus can cushion enormous impacts. Tsunade has bones and durable body, and even if she was directly on top of him, getting hit by a 200 MT force means the ANBU still should have been pulverized just by CST crushing Tsunade into him hard enough to dig a crater over 200 metres deep across Konoha. 

And it wouldn't be my prerogative to disprove every single convoluted scenario you come up with; you were the one claiming 'Tsunade withstood CST', therefore, it's up to you to find reasons other than circumstances that aren't just as likely, if not less, than Katsuyu simply protecting that ANBU soldier and Tsunade.



> Well. . .we don't have anything that contradicts it, do we? Tsunade's only ever been injured by piercing attacks like Kusanagi and like Susano'o's blades.



Haven't seen Tsunade injured by blunt attacks =/= makes her tanking CST any less improbable, given that CST is far above any other blunt force attack she's ever faced.



> Now before this turns into "then she can't ever hurt Ay"



When the fuck did I ever even remotely mention this? 

You love attacking strawmen, don't you?



> . . . .Ay was never casually blitzing a Mangekyo Sharingan user. Sasuke _reacted_ to his sudden appearance with Enton both before Raigyaku Suihei and before Guillotine Drop.



Erm yes, Karin flat-out admitted confirming it as such totally supports your notion.

Yes, Sasuke staring at the completely _wrong_ direction of Raikage's trajectory despite not having any sort of sensing abilities whatsover does also, but hey, if you somehow think Sasuke can see behind him and thus activates Enton as such, more power to you.

Guillotine Drop was *free-fall*. No usage at all of Raikage's real speed.



> Heck, Onoki had to _react_ to a _lightened_ V2 Raikage's movements in order to time Chokajugan no Jutsu correctly, and has not shown to be more reflexive than Tsunade has- she actually reacted to Madara's Katons before he did.



Ever consider the possibility that Onoki, not to mention Raikage - whose reflexes in base have been mentioned to be on par with freakin Minato Namikaze - were simply too tired to deflect a hit from Madara? Not to mention both of them could have been affected by damage moreso than Tsunade (on account Byakugou) and thus their true level of reactions weren't in play?

I mean, fuck, what you're proposing means Mei has faster reactions than Raikage/Onoki, and by extension, fucking Minato. 



> Let's pay attention to Ay's words. . .he said Naruto was the second to _dodge_ V2, not the first person to _react_.



And? So what? 



> To attack Madara pretty much the instant she materialized and get her kick under his guard (considering that he would have become visible at lightspeed in her eyes) impresses _me_ enough to think she could _react_ to Ay. Not _dodge_, _react_.



Yeah, you said this already. This overhyped feat hinges on two things: the distance between Madara/Muu and Raikage/Tsunade and how fast the former were moving towards Naruto and Co.

Since we can't definitely prove that in any quantifiable fashion, I'm not finding this feat concretely impressive. Not to mention that's one heck of a non-sequitur you got going there: she can react to Muu/Madara from a short distance, therefore she can react to a V2 Ei?

What?



> Except that's not what he was going to do against Sasuke at all in V2. Check that page again, Raikage appears in the first panel with his arm reared back, rears it back even more in the next panel, and _only then_ does Sasuke use Enton to *prompt Raikage to pause again.*



How _at all_ does this disprove what I said, which was: Raikage utilizes his V2 speed alongside his physical strike, which is slower than his movement speed, so he would have to time it. This is essentially what he was doing against Sasuke. 

And for the bolded: pause again? At what point did he pause to begin with? Prove Raikage paused *before* the Enton appeared on Sasuke's Susano'o, because I'm not following you at all. We do see him pausing AFTER Enton appears, as made apparent by the middle panel to the right.



> "Timing and swinging the chop just as he passes a target's vitals" would mean Sasuke's defense would have already crumbled in the very first panel Ay ever appeared in again.



What the hell are you talking about? 

You're not making sense.



> Ay's statement there doesn't necessitate that he attacks _while_ running/using Shunshin. It's called inertia. If he's running in V1 and *suddenly stops* his punch is still going to carry more force than him doing the same in base. Same with V2, cuz that's faster than V1, sudden stop followed by strike = strike is still stronger.



Yeah, this brilliant theory would make sense.

If you could at any point in time find Raikage 'suddenly stopping' before he strikes. I doubt you will, because I handily dismantled such a loaded notion in the last post.



> We saw through C's illusion what Ay would have done *had he gone it alone.*



_Exactly._ Given he does as such, and there's a clear lack of partners in this scenario, how does the Shi-blinding-Sasuke-prior-to-Raikage-striking support your 'Raikage pauses before/after each and every one of his strikes' argument?

It doesn't. The fact that Darui was there in the first place means it's possible that Raikage could have been collaborating with the former to deliver, again, a two-ended blow. And the fact that it is possible, is enough to discredit your 'Raikage usually pauses before/after each and every one of his strikes' argument. Because on his lonesome (which is relevant here), he does not do that, by your own admission.

Next.



> There was absolutely no need for Darui, who we've seen act of his own accord without Ay's command (seen in the Suiton he used to protect him despite it being obvious Ay would have tanked that blade).



For all we know, Darui could be the default defense player of the team, so there's no evidence in the slightest that Darui was at all 'acting of his own accord'.



> There is no lack of resistance. Ay will also have to attempt to overpower his physical superior in Tsunade, and her *Anti-ST chakra to the feet strategy*.



So Tsunade is just going to stay rooted to the spot while waiting for a blitzing V2 Raikage to attack her, possibly and likely (unbeknownst to her) fatally, from any direction?

Sounds a bit of a stupid strategy. And what's to say the mere adhesion from her chakra sticking to the ground is enough to withstand the force from a full-fledged blow from someone like Raikage? That just sounds ridiculous. 



> Inertia, bruh.
> 
> Otherwise, why would Jugo be the single example of Ay rocketing into a wall with somebody?
> 
> Ay didn't do that with Madara, and he couldn't have just decided to stop after hitting him because he was in mid-air.



So what I'm trying to get from you:

V1 Raikage shunshins over to Jugo... then suddenly stops (according to your 'inertia' theory), yet somehow continues flying into the wall with Jugo? What? How is it not more likely Jugo simply grasped Raikage's arm as it struck him, meaning Raikage's Shunshin would send them both careening into said wall? Or Raikage's blow was strong enough to penetrate Jugo's shield and was stuck, thereby Jugo was carried over?

Considering Madara blocked, it's a different scenario.



> Had he not stalled he'd have kept going and messed up Sasuke's thrust with Chidori, as he would have been too close for Sasuke to fully perform the arm thrust like he did. . .and that didn't happen.



Or Raikage could have decided to simply stop because he saw an opportunity to use Liger Bomb to prevent the slippery Uchiha from evading away. As such, he didn't 'pause' because it's part of his fighting style (as you implied). 

It's an anomaly.



> Link removed
> No. Look at the page. Ay appears in one panel,*rears back more next*, and _then_ Enton. He paused _before Enton ever came into the picture_.



What the hell are you talking about? 'rears back more next'? To what are you referring to? 

We see Raikage behind Sasuke, his elbow half-raised for the Horizontal Chop. Next panel, his elbow is even higher, evidently preparing for the eventual impact. Then we see Enton materialize on Susano'o, THEN Raikage stops, the left middle panel confirms it.

Where the fuck are you seeing him pause before? We don't see his feet doing so.



> And how do you know he didn't pause after? Because by the time Sasuke flew and hit the ground, in other words some measure of time had passed, he jumped?



*YOU'RE* the one positively claiming that Raikage, by your own admission, paused before 'each and every one of his strikes', so don't stick the burden of proof on me for your nonsensical assertions.

It's up to you to present evidence for support, not accuse me of not disproving a premise you claimed.



> Well against Tsunade he'll likely be trying to overpower her Anti-ST chakra to the feet strategy + superior strength.
> 
> She won't fly.



Or, you know... considering this is a manga-knowledge scenario, Raikage won't bother with the usual petty strikes, and knowing of Tsunade's physical strength, simply beheads her.

As I've been advocating for a pretty damn long time now.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2013)

> Had the chop lost all of its momentum it would slow down to an almost halt- which would have allowed Sasuke to duck or something.



Or Sasuke was simply surprised as fuck that Raikage not only completely broke through Susano'o ribcage, but was also ballsy enough to risk his left arm; the former was pretty much expecting his defense to prevent such an unlikely circumstance.

So no, it's not reasonable to expect Sasuke to have done anything in that situation.



> I'm almost certain Raikage was in base when he cut his arm off. And. . .considering that chakra scalpels can cut people open (not surprising) and apparently still not take off their heads when brought across someone's throat like Kabuto did Orochimaru. .


.

How about looking it up, you passive-aggressive genius? 

I'm almost certain this and this happened' is about the laziest rebuttal I've heard in a while. And even then, Mabui implied that Raikage in Base was pretty much >= Tsunade in durability on account of the Lightning Transfer jutsu, Raikage sustaining no injuries compared to her makes this sub-argument a complete waste of time.

Next.




> Absorbing most of the impact would have stalled Raikage's hit, and *allowed Sasuke to move.* . .but that's not what happened, so I doubt it absorbed most of that hit.



Dealt with the bolded. And what exactly absolutely prevents you from refusing to believe the notion that the ribcage could have slowed down Raikage's strike to make the remaining force negligible? 

It's far more likely than 'ooh, sasuke's more durable than tsunade and raikage! haha horizontal chop is sooo weak'



> To rebuild _enough_ momentum.
> 
> Having a greater distance to rebuild momentum over would result in more force behind Ay's strike. That's why it was a good idea to take the long route rather than go straight at Madara and possibly achieve nothing.



That's certainly possible. 



> Who the heck have we even seen V2 Ay even blitz?



MS Sasuke.

I keep repeating this to you over and over, and so does Karin.



> Actually. . .why would he even go V2 against Tsunade to start if he doesn't go V2 against freaking Madara Uchiha or 5 Madara clones.



Because of manga knowledge? Raikage will be pretty damn sure Tsunade can react to his V1 speed when he knows shit like Suigetsu can accomplish the same as well.

He didn't go V2 against Madara? According to what? Spiked hair? His hair wasn't spiked in this panel, yet we canonically are aware that he indeed was going V2 against KCM Naruto.



> Needles? Hiruko's needles? Which apparently weren't slow as fuck since Sakura at that point still needed Chiyo?
> 
> Or the enormous spires of Satetsu (that temporarily blocked Chiyo's LoS with Sakura so controlling her is out) that Sasori rained down on the cave at random thanks to them contantly rejecting each other because of opposing magnetic forces? Which logically would have caused several to come at Sakura from behind? Yet she still managed to predict enough of it to avoid major injury?
> 
> The same about V2 Ay.



Allow me to rephrase your essential argument:

Sasori's needles are are faster than Sakura.

V2 Ay is faster than Tsunade.

Sakura can predict and react to them. 

Therefore Tsunade can predict react to V2 Ay.

Aside from the fact that Sakura can still clearly react to the Satetsu and the needles. And even while controlled by Chiyo, it shows she can still physically evade them, even without the expertise in evasion needed.

The above does not apply to Tsunade. At all. In any shape, form, or method.



> But. . .here we have four translations. Two point towards a headshot not killing her anyway, the other two could have ambiguous meanings which aren't more likely to mean one thing than another, as you've said. But we don't have another two translations that suggest a headshot killing her.
> 
> 2- 2- 0. The evidence leans more towards her surviving than not it seems.



Yeah, that's not how it works.

Ambiguous would literally mean whatever interpretation you have of the statement is utterly and entirely worthless. Doesn't matter what you think of it, the fact that it's ambiguous means it's a pointless statement.

2-0-2.



> blah blah blah meaningless hype blah blah



I really couldn't give less of a shit about your pointless attempt at argument of disbelief or how 'hyped' up she is, the fact that exists, is that Tsunade hasn't been shown to withstand *physical *injuries that sever her head, thus, any arguments trying to to suggest such a notion is committing a *no-limits fallacy.*

We stay with what she's been demonstrated to be able to do.



> Except that you shut down chakra by severing the connections to their* heart, not their head*- as was shown by Kabuto when he cut off Naruto's ties to his chakra by doing just that. SInce Naruto's seal was in that area- his connection to the Kyuubi was cut off as well.



Where is it stated that it can only be done by the head?

And does it not logically follow that if Tsunade's brain isn't connected to the rest of her chakra network, ongoing, techniques such as Byakugou actively used AND maintained by Tsunade will cease to properly function? The usage of chakra is controlled by Tsunade, thus is dependent on her brain.


This entire debate boils down to this ultimately: Raikage vs. Tsunade

You think Tsunade has the ability to predict Raikage's movements and 'throw attacks simultaneously' according to when she thinks he'll strike. At that point, the blow will kill Raikage and thus earn her the victory.

I say that's bullshit; she not only can't 'predict' a V2 Raikage's movements due to his attacking from multiple trajectories, but you think Tsunade is so damn good at this 'predicting' game that she can guess not just his direction of attack but also the second in which he does?

What the fuck? When has she demonstrated to guess the attack-time of something she blatantly CANNOT SEE?

No. Then Raikage beheads her. The end.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 28, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Except Tsunade isn't like Katsuyu, a boneless invertebrae who would thereby be unaffected by force and thus can cushion enormous impacts. Tsunade has bones and durable body



She also has enormous tits that could have enveloped the Anbu. 



> it's up to you to find reasons other than circumstances that aren't just as likely, if not less, than Katsuyu simply protecting that ANBU soldier and Tsunade.



Why. . .would these two be the only individuals we don't see Katsuyu releasing, nor anywhere nearby, unless Katsuyu wasn't there to begin with?



> Haven't seen Tsunade injured by blunt attacks =/= makes her tanking CST any less improbable.



. . .Okay. . .?



> if you somehow think Sasuke can see behind him.



He can hear. 

Karin says "even if he can't" not "even though he can't". No confirmation.

Enton isn't automatic. . .how would it have emerged had Sasuke not consciously done so as Ay was about to attack?



> Ever consider they were too tired to deflect a hit from Madara?



No. Because Byakugo doesn't stop Tsunade from getting tired, and thus won't prevent her own slowing down.

I don't believe she was any less tired than they were given that she _passed out_ after intercepting those Katons.

And Raikage hadn't been hurt. The Susano'o clones weren't able to get a good shot to stab at him and when they swung at him he simply caught the blade before it could hurt him.

Though if you think Tsunade can outlast someone with Hachibi level chakra, then I'm cool with that. 

Also this
this
this

I don't see a translation that says his reflexes are on par with Minato's. I know Naruto wiki says that, but idk.



> And?



You can _react_ to something even if you aren't able to move your body out of the way. That's the problem most people would face because most people would get a hole punched in them like Jugo did, or their arms broken off like Suigetsu would have.

Ay apparently doesn't think anything of people _reacting_ to his attacks, (which apparently happens often otherwise it would be something to note, hence it not being unbelievable for Tsunade to react) he thinks that of _dodging_ (Which is not what I'm saying Tsunade could do).



> she can react to Muu/Madara from a short distance, therefore she can react to a V2 Ei?



Said distance apparently couldn't have been more than the length of her leg, seeing as she made contact with him without it being extended quite all the way. She was being shot at lightspeed. Meaning that Madara became visible stupidly fast and yet she still hit him the instant she got there.



> How _at all_ does this disprove what I said, which was: Raikage utilizes his V2 speed alongside his physical strike, which is slower than his movement speed, so he would have to time it.



Because V2 Raikage can't be seen on panel while he's running. We only ever see him while he's striking, which would mean that he doesn't strike as he's moving otherwise Raikage would not be visible to us until _after_ he has struck, not just before.

If he was timing it, it sucked.



> What the hell are you talking about?



If that was what Raikage did we'd see him having struck his opponent the very panel he reappears and not his fist closing in one panel before like always.



> _Exactly._ Given he does as such, and there's a clear lack of partners in this scenario, how does the Shi-blinding-Sasuke-prior-to-Raikage-striking support your 'Raikage pauses before/after each and every one of his strikes' argument?



The Raikage again suddenly becoming visible before he actually throws his strike, despite arriving there at speeds to quick to be seen.



> For all we know, Darui could be the default defense player of the team, so there's no evidence in the slightest that Darui was at all 'acting of his own accord'.



Trying to hack someone with a sword is not defense. . .



> So Tsunade is just going to stay rooted to the spot while waiting for a blitzing V2 Raikage to attack her, possibly and likely (unbeknownst to her) fatally, from any direction?



Yep.

Why wouldn't it be? I mean I'd think it pretty freakin strong if someone of her strength came up with the idea in response to learning about the enemy being able to send people flying.



> V1 Raikage shunshins over to Jugo... then suddenly stops (according to your 'inertia' theory), yet somehow continues flying into the wall with Jugo?



Basically. Have you seen someone throw a hard punch? They often keep going despite not having any sort of running start beforehand. Running beforehand would just make the jerk resulting from a punch that's being leaned into even more powerful- thus Ay kept going for a bit.

But I'm used to seeing that at dojos a lot. So maybe I'd just be more likely to attribute it towards that than another.



> Or Raikage could have decided to simply stop because he saw an opportunity to use Liger Bomb to prevent the slippery Uchiha from evading away.







> Next panel, his elbow is even higher, evidently preparing for the eventual impact. Then we see Enton materialize on Susano'o, THEN Raikage stops, the left middle panel confirms it.



That's exactly what I'm talking about. His attack wasn't ready when he reappeared, and he could only reappear if he had no longer been moving at his V2 speed (as said speed isn't visible to us readers).



> Or, you know... considering this is a manga-knowledge scenario, Raikage won't bother with the usual petty strikes, and knowing of Tsunade's physical strength, simply beheads her.



And thus would need to overwhelm her insane neck strength 

If in a manga knowledge scenario, Ay uses V1 against an EMS user despite having used V2 against an MS user, I'm still not sure he'd try that. At least first.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Or Sasuke was simply surprised as fuck that Raikage not only completely broke through Susano'o ribcage, but was also ballsy enough to risk his left arm; the former was pretty much expecting his defense to prevent such an unlikely circumstance.
> 
> So no, it's not reasonable to expect Sasuke to have done anything in that situation.







> How about looking it up, you *passive-aggressive genius*?





He was indeed in base. this



> Because of manga knowledge? Raikage will be pretty damn sure Tsunade can react to his V1 speed when he knows shit like Suigetsu can accomplish the same as well.



Makes you wonder why he didn't figure that when he initially attacked Madara then, surely he won't have thought Madara less reflexive than Suigetsu, or Tsunade herself.



> According to what? Spiked hair? His hair wasn't spiked in this panel, yet we canonically are aware that he indeed was going V2 against KCM Naruto.



His hair is way more spiked there than it is here His hair wasn't spiked in this panel.



> Aside from the fact that Sakura can still clearly react to the Satetsu and the needles. And even while controlled by Chiyo, it shows she can still physically evade them, even without the expertise in evasion needed.



. . . .Yeup.

Sakura was able to compensate for a notable speed gap thanks to her prediction ability. Tsunade is far superior to her in using said ability, and so could still manage to pull off something similar against Ay because unlike Sakura she possesses the expertise in evasion that she needs.



> 2-0-2



Wait, if two are meaningless due to ambiguity, then they don't count towards anything. So it would be 2-0-0 would it not?



> We stay with what she's been demonstrated to be able to do.[/COLOR]



That could be reworded to say "physical injuries that sever her head have not shown to be something is unable to withstand", so severing her head doesn't have the feat of killing her right? 

In all seriousness, I don't see why hype would be meaningless.

If this is a rule of the battledome I'm unaware of then my apologies.



> Where is it stated that it can only be done by the head?
> 
> And does it not logically follow that if Tsunade's brain isn't connected to the rest of her chakra network, ongoing, techniques such as Byakugou actively used AND maintained by Tsunade will cease to properly function? The usage of chakra is controlled by Tsunade, thus is dependent on her brain.



Byakugo is automatic restoration. Tsunade has to actively turn it, or at least the Yin seal, on and off, but not actively maintain it. That's the point of the technique and the point of not requiring handseals, to not make active input necessary and thus allow Tsunade to just focus on fighting and ignore any wounds she takes because they'll heal anyway.



> What the fuck? When has she demonstrated to guess the attack-time of something she blatantly CANNOT SEE?



His hair wasn't spiked in this panel She wasn't looking at the ground.



> This entire debate boils down to this ultimately: Raikage vs. Tsunade
> 
> You think Tsunade has the ability to predict Raikage's movements and 'throw attacks simultaneously' according to when she thinks he'll strike. At that point, the blow will kill Raikage and thus earn her the victory.
> 
> I say that's bullshit; she not only can't 'predict' a V2 Raikage's movements due to his attacking from multiple trajectories, but you think Tsunade is so damn good at this 'predicting' game that she can guess not just his direction of attack but also the second in which he does?



Pretty much.

My apologies, call me stubborn, but I disagree with your stance as you disagree with mine. 

I still found it fun though, strangely.


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