# Itachi vs. Kage Pairs



## Rocky (Aug 29, 2014)

*Location:* Beach
*Distance:* 10 meters
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* None
*Knowledge: *
_S1:_ Full
_S2:_ Manga

He's fighting: 
_
Gaara & Yondaime

Mei & Trollkage

Ōnoki & Mū

A & Sandaime

Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen_

This is not a gauntlet, and Itachi is alive but healthy.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 29, 2014)

S1:

He beats Gaara+Dad at this distance. With full knowledge he would know not to give them time.

Mei+Trollkage is tricky. I think that Itachi can see through Mirage but with Mei here using Hidden Mist instead(due to full knowledge) it might become ugly. Still, with this distance Itachi should be able to take out at least one of them before Mist/Mirage is up. And then deal with the other.

Two Jinton users is too much. Even though I grant Yata Mirror ability to block Jinton and also grant Sharingan ability to detect Mu - Kages still have a lot of stuff to overwhelm Itachi. Between bunshins, flanking, golems, weight-manipulation and splitting they would get him eventually. With Flying and Golem/Doton Hands they should be able to escape quickly.

Two speedsters is again too much. Without Enton Itachi can't stop them from bashing Susano around. Amaterasu would require a very good set up to be used when fighting just one of them. Genjutsu is very difficult also. 

Itachi beats Tsunade+Hiruzen imo. Unless of course Katsuyu-wankappreciation. Tsunade is mostly defenseless due to Amaterasu and Totsuka bypassing her regen. Hiruzen by himself can't get through Susano. Plus they are at a disadvantage at this range - lacking proper tools to avoid initial blitz if Itachi decides to use it.

S2 gives Gaara+4th higher chance but I am still unsure about their victory. Higher chance to Mei+Clam due Itachi possibly being cautious and not trying to quickly kill either of them. Lower chance to Iwagakure - them Kages need knowledge to properly counter possible blitz and Itachi tricks. Same chance with Raikages and Hokages imo.


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## Trojan (Aug 29, 2014)

> He's fighting:
> Gaara & Yondaime



Gaara solos mid-high difficult. He counter itachi very badly. 
with his father here they win low difficult. 



> Mei & Trollkage


itachi loses. 
Mei mist and the 2nd Mirage will shut itachi's MS down completely. Also, the 2nd has the potential to solo. 



> Ōnoki & Mū


Either can solo with the possbility of losing. However, together they trash itachi. 



> A & Sandaime


The same as above. 



> Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen


either can give itachi a high difficult fight. Together they win as well. 

Itachi was never portrayed to be able to fight 2 kages at the same time. Most of the time
he also have some one or group of people to help him out against 1 opponent as well.


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## Dr. White (Aug 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> itachi can give itachi a high difficult fight.



/thread         .


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## Trojan (Aug 29, 2014)

lol did not notice that.


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## Hachibi (Aug 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *Location:* Beach
> *Distance:* 10 meters
> *Mindset:* IC
> *Restrictions:* None
> ...


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## Ghost (Aug 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaara & Yondaime


Itachi mows through their sand and massacres one of them on the spot. Mid diff at worst. Leaning towards high end low diff.



> Mei & Trollkage


They can't do anything to Itachi except stall him for a while. Itachi mid diff.



> Ōnoki & Mū


Itachi can beat either of them comfortably, but fighting against two Jinton users will be tricky. I can see this going anywhere from Itachi taking this high diff to the duo taking this high/extreme diff.



> A & Sandaime


Too much for Itachi. Duo mid diff. 


> Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen


Itachi murders them. Mid diff at worst because of Hiruzen's Ninjutsu spam.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 29, 2014)

> Gaara & Yondaime


Knowledge: 
S1: Full - Itachi takes this with full knowledge defeating one of them before they can get situated
S2: Manga - Itachi gets defeated



> Mei & Trollkage


Knowledge: 
S1: Full - If Trollkage gets taken out before he sets up the genjutsu or joki boy he wins
S2: Manga - Only chance he has of winning is if he can see through the genjutsu. My opinion is no



> Ōnoki & Mū


Knowledge: 
S1: Full
S2: Manga

^Will lose no mater what scenario. Mu has the potential to solo



> A & Sandaime


Knowledge: 
S1: Full
S2: Manga

^ Gets defeated in any scenario. To fast, to much stamina, to much damage



> Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen


Knowledge: 
S1: Full
S2: Manga

^Only scenario where I see him winning no matter what


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## Sorin (Aug 29, 2014)

He beats Gaara and Yondaime with mid difficulty mainly because of the distance. Otherwise they give him high difficulty or outright beat him.

Against Mei and Trollkage he wins with mid difficulty. Form what i've seen neither Mei or Trollkage are very fast. Itachi can overhelm them from the get go with a few tricks and Amaterasu. I'll say this though, if Mei(trough unknown, to me, speed and reaction feats),  manages to put up the mist then it gets tough for Itachi. 

Mu and Onoki. Again, Itachi is faster than both of them, but he has to get rid of one of them very fast because he won't stand a chance otherwise. As long as Onoki and Mu can put distance between them, Itachi would be on the losing end. Long range Jinton coupled with flight, invisibility, golems and bunshins for both defensive and offensive purposes, weight manipulation is too much for even Itachi. 
So yeah, i don't see Itachi taking one of them at the start so that puts him at a disadvantage from then onward.

Against the Raikages. Well, he gets his head chopped off from the get go. This is the only fight where distance is in his disadvantage and it's HUGE disadvantage. The only chance at more than a 5 seconds fight, is if he puts up rib-cage Susano up before A lops his head off and even if he manages to put it up, he'll still get injured just like Sasuke and with Raikagenaut just behind him with a 1 finger nukite which can probably chop up every version of Susano but the one with the Yata mirror, he has no chance whatsoever. 

Tsunade and Hiruzen get mid diff'd. They are not fast enough to contend with Itachi. Amaterasu puts and end to both of them. 

None of these fights are low diff because in each and every one of them, i think he has to use at least one or two MS techs and to me that isn't low diff.


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## Ghost (Aug 29, 2014)

^ I don't see how using Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi like once means that the fight is hard for Itachi.


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## Sorin (Aug 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> ^ I don't see how using Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi like once means that the fight is hard for Itachi.



I said no fight is low diff. After that comes mid diff.

What does that have to do with hard difficulty?


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## Ghost (Aug 29, 2014)

Sorry, I meant 'harder' enough to make the low diff into a mid diff. Like if the Amaterasu immediately ends the match.


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## Sorin (Aug 29, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Sorry, I meant 'harder' enough to make the low diff into a mid diff. Like if the Amaterasu immediately ends the match.



For example, in part 1, Itachi used one MS tech on Kakashi and immediately started to feel the side effects. That to me is enough to put the fight in the mid difficulty range. Even though it ended with just a stare. 

I mean, it's like saying Gai low diff'd Kisame when he had to open 6 or 7 gates to beat him.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 29, 2014)

He isn't beat ing Gaara on a BEACH!!!!


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## StickaStick (Aug 29, 2014)

In the full-knowledge scenario Itachi losses every round. Simple at that. 

With manga knowledge he may be able to clear some of those rounds but I don't care to figure out which ones, and chances are anyway that he still losses the majority of them.


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## Dr. White (Aug 29, 2014)

at 10 M the only teams with hopes of winning are the Kumo Duo, and the Iwa Duo. With full knowledge the Iwa duo can get up an earth wall and either doton away or fly away behind cover to avoid insta Ama. Mu's invisibility may help but personally I think sharingan can see through it. Regardless flight can keep them out of genjutsu range, doton can cover their asses from being roasted, and it would come down to Jinton vs Susano'o which with full knowledge and their skillset they should be able to pull of Mid - High diff.

The Kumo duo are in a tougher situation. Ei needs to lop off Itachi's head or his dad faces a serious threat of being Amaterasu'd. Unfortunately Itachi's reactions to Kirin, Muki Tensei, and Bee/Naruto taikenjutsu combo, mean he can atleast get Susano up in time. To boot the team need to be close to do damage, and unfortunately Itachi's V4 Susano has the legendary weapons which not only can shield from any single attack they have, but instantly take out of them if hit. The susano and Itachi can attack from range, while the duo can't. Either one of them dies ruining any chance of beating Itachi, or they outlast his Susano/Amaterasu attempts.

I give it to Itachi High - Extreme diff.

The others lack the physical capabilities/skillsets to escape from Itachi with full.


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## Rocky (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm not sure that Totsuka can damage either Raikage, the 3rd especially. 

It's cutting feats aren't really better than chidori Katana,  and certainly not better than Nukite.


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## Dr. White (Aug 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm not sure that Totsuka can damage either Raikage, the 3rd especially.
> 
> It's cutting feats aren't really better than chidori Katana,  and certainly not better than Nukite.



Well IMO Susano blade's cutting through Sage mode Bones from Kimmo, and easily lopping off snakes heads is a pretty good cutting feat. At best he can cut through the shroud/pierce it, at worst he uses it as a ward and along with other jutsu uses it to slowly wear down the shrounds until totsuka can pierce.

Susano > Chidori (which penetrated V1 despite elemental offsetting) imo simply because of the size and quality of chakra. If Sasuke was the size of Susano and as strong and used chidori I would be inclined to agree.


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## Cognitios (Aug 29, 2014)

> implying totsuka is a physical item
Totsuka yes needs to pierce, however it is also a spiritual item, or you know spiritual in nature, like fluid in state. I have no doubt that a spirit weapon could pierce any solid opponent, only stopping at other susanoo (maybe), tailed beast shrouds (maybe), 10 tail jin/kaguya/so6p skin (maybe)


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## Rocky (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Well IMO Susano blade's cutting through Sage mode Bones from Kimmo, and easily lopping off snakes heads is a pretty good cutting feat. At best he can cut through the shroud/pierce it, at worst he uses it as a ward and along with other jutsu uses it to slowly wear down the shrounds until totsuka can pierce.



Against A, Itachi won't be landing many hits when  the man can dodge even Amaterasu. 

Against Sandaime, Itachi lacks the stamina to wear him down to a point that his durability lessens.. 



> Susano > Chidori (which penetrated V1 despite elemental offsetting) imo simply because of the size and quality of chakra. If Sasuke was the size of Susano and as strong and used chidori I would be inclined to agree.



That was A,  not his father. Sandaime would most likely do the close quarters wrestling with Susanoo, while A pops in and out with his flicker. 

Itachi's only chance against them is genjutsu imo.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaara & Yondaime



The outcome of this match depends entirely on Itachi's Genjutsu game, since he can't hope to outmuscle or oulast both Kazekage at the same time with his physical attacks; I don't think the difference between full and manga knowledge would be significant to that end, either, since at least Gaara should know the gist of Itachi's abilities through reputation and his personal experiences with Sasuke and Madara.

Tsukuyomi and his strategic application of clone switches give Itachi the means to win, but it's really a gamble that hinges on circumstance. The faster he takes one of them out, the better his odds of staying in shape for cleaning up the remaining enemy.



> Mei & Trollkage



Itachi throws up Susano'o and _wrecks_ these bitches; they have no way to stop it.



> Ōnoki & Mū



Amaterasu wipes out the two Tsuchikage decisively; it's possible one of them may hit Itachi with Jinton in the process, so I'll say this can go either way (but with at least one casualty guaranteed for the Tsuchikage).



> A & Sandaime



Depends entirely on Itachi's clone game and use of Ninjutsu to obstruct visual. He absolutely can't afford to get turtled-up in Susano'o, because the two Raikage will just knock that sucker around until Itachi's own Doujutsu kills him; he needs to seize any opportunity he can to slip out under their noses and attack from a blind spot.



> Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen



Itachi hits them both with Amaterasu for good measure and then blitzes them with Susano'o and seals with the Totsuka Blade. GG.


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## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Against A, Itachi won't be landing many hits when  the man can dodge even Amaterasu.


Ei isn't doing much to V4, and has to be close to Itachi to attack him. Meaning he'll have to dodge both.

But i never said Itachi has an easy time here.


> Against Sandaime, Itachi lacks the stamina to wear him down to a point that his durability lessens..


Sandaime lacks V2, and therefore isn't fast enough to completely eclipse Itachi's jutsu making him the most vulnerable here. Really Ei needs to distract while Sandaime tries to open up Susano. Once one of them dies, they are fucked.




> That was A,  not his father. Sandaime would most likely do the close quarters wrestling with Susanoo, while A pops in and out with his flicker.


That's a great way to get tagged by Ama.


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## Bonly (Aug 30, 2014)

Onoki+Muu and A+Sandaime are the ones I see might be able to win more times then not depending on how things play out. 

When it comes to Onoki+Muu it their shot would be when Itachi is focusing on attacking one, the other might be able to get a good shot in which Susanoo isn't tanking. So this depends on how things play out though I'd side with the Jinton duo. As for A and the Sandaime that one depends on if Itachi can take out A before he loses a crapload of chakra as A's speed and hitting him would be the main problem for Itachi.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

It's funny how some of the members here argue that A blitzed Minato, but someone with inferior reflexes has a chance to solo both A and the raikagenaut from 10 meters.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi has better reflexes than Minato.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

First of all, no. He doesn't have better reflexes than Minato. Nothing suggests that. Not feats, not portrayal. 

Secondly, he doesn't have an instant s/t tech that can make you vanish with a thought. For arguments sake, let's say he has the same reflexes as Minato. What he gonna do against Raikage's initial speedblitz? Because A punch was 1 mm from Minato's nose. 

He doesn't even have time to put up rib cage Susano'o, but again for arguments sake lets say he manages to do that. Then what? A punches right trough it injuring Itachi(just like Sasuke), then Sandaime comes with nukite and turns Itachi, along with Susano, into shish kebab.

At best fight gonna last 10 seconds tops.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 30, 2014)

Sorin said:


> First of all, no. He doesn't have better reflexes than Minato. Nothing suggests that. Not feats, not portrayal.



Portrayal doesn't even indicate that Minato has better reflexes than Itachi.
He's renowned for his speed and being Hokage. What's your point?

Itachi has Mangekyou Sharingan and even possesses the means to feint when need arises.
Need I remind you that Sharingan augments perception (let alone Mangekyou)?
Itachi's visual perception is steps ahead of Minato's. The latter needs to rely on his passive sensing, which is why he's lucky enough to have an instantaneous technique like Hiraishin. 

Itachi would have never been in that position, considering he's got more time to react with his visual perception.



> Secondly, he doesn't have an instant s/t tech that can make you vanish with a thought. For arguments sake, let's say he has the same reflexes as Minato. What he gonna do against Raikage's initial speedblitz? Because A punch was 1 mm from Minato's nose.



Hiraishin can't be attributed to reflexes; it's a technique like Susano'o
Like I said before, Itachi would never be in that position, assuming it's a frontal blitz like the one Minato had faced.



> He doesn't even have time to put up rib cage Susano'o, but again for arguments sake lets say he manages to do that. Then what? A punches right trough it injuring Itachi(just like Sasuke), then Sandaime comes with nukite and turns Itachi, along with Susano, into shish kebab.



If MS Sasuke was able to coat his Susano'o in Enton before Ei blitzed, I'm pretty sure Itachi can activate V1 (at the very least). Along with that, Itachi showed that he was able to activate his versions at the same rate - if not faster - than EMS Sasuke in the fight against Kabuto.



> At best fight gonna last 10 seconds tops.



Are you referring to 1v1 like the scene when Ei used Raiton: Shunshin against Minato? Hahaha
Itachi activates V1 and chokeslams him with one arm.


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## Jad (Aug 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Portrayal doesn't even indicate that Minato has better reflexes than Itachi.
> He's renowned for his speed and being Hokage. What's your point?



Just a heads up, in the Databook reflexes is mentioned as apart of the speed stat. Which, I guess means Kishi views high tier speed characters also having high tier reflexes, which makes sense.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 30, 2014)

Jad said:


> Just a heads up, in the Databook reflexes is mentioned as apart of the speed stat. Which, I guess means Kishi views high tier speed characters also having high tier reflexes, which makes sense.



I think Itachi's Sharingan matches the definition of reflexes more than just speed.
He can think one step ahead of Minato and react faster through precognition.

We even saw that it allows people to keep up with combatants who are physically faster.

Additionally, he can see the chakra buildup in Raikage (unlike Minato).

Itachi also has the highest mark in speed within DB, and I never thought he was that far away from Minato w/o Hiraishin in the first place. Without Sage-like senses or doujutsu, I don't know how anyone can say that he's got better reflexes than Itachi...especially though visual perception.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Portrayal doesn't even indicate that Minato has better reflexes than Itachi.
> He's renowned for his speed and being Hokage. What's your point?



What? Speed means reflexes too. 

Seriously?





> Itachi has Mangekyou Sharingan and even possesses the means to feint when need arises.
> Need I remind you that Sharingan augments perception (let alone Mangekyou)?
> Itachi's visual perception is steps ahead of Minato's. The latter needs to rely on his passive sensing, which is why he's lucky enough to have an instantaneous technique like Hiraishin.



So what if he doesn't have a sharingan? For example Gai doesn't have sharingan and yet he can fight with Obito face to face no problem. At one point Obito with Kamui thinks he's got the upper hand, but Gai kicks his nunchak and almost lops his head off. No augmented perceptive ability needed.

Hashirama can fight Madara with EMS, in base, w/o a sharingan. Means his reflexes and perceptiveness are on par if not better. EMS means shit in this case. It's all about the level of reflexes for each and every shinobi. Otherwise all the people with 3T sharingan, MS and EMS are a level above everyone else in speed.

Just like the Minato-Itachi comparison. 

And Minato "lucky enough" to have hiraishin? Do you even hear yourself? He worked for that technique. Or at least put effort into learning it and advance it. Not an ounce of luck. But good try.



> Itachi would have never been in that position, considering he's got more time to react with his visual perception.



Yeah, no. See above.




> Hiraishin can't be attributed to reflexes; it's a technique like Susano'o
> Like I said before, Itachi would never be in that position, assuming it's a frontal blitz like the one Minato had faced.



Where have a said that Hiraishin is attributed to reflexes? 

I merely said that Minato, has a technique that makes him vanish with a thought. That's the perks of Hiraishin. And Itachi doesn't have it. What's his best option in that case. Put Susano up which comes in stages, first being ribcage, then full skeleton, then flesh then armor etc.

I already given him the benefit of doubt and said he can put up ribcage susano to protect himself at which point he gets his face smashed in like Sasuke.




> If MS Sasuke was able to coat his Susano'o in Enton before Ei blitzed, I'm pretty sure Itachi can activate V1 (at the very least). Along with that, Itachi showed that he was able to activate his versions at the same rate - if not faster - than EMS Sasuke in the fight against Kabuto.



Sasuke was already in ribcage mode Susano'o. You seem to gloss over that little fact. 

Anyway, i already accounted for ribbcage Susano. A punches right trough it and injures Itachi, making him vulnerable to the follow up coming from Sandaime.





> Are you referring to 1v1 like the scene when Ei used Raiton: Shunshin against Minato? Hahaha
> Itachi activates V1 and chokeslams him with one arm.



 at Itachi having anywhere near the speed to catch A and much less chokeslam it. He tickles him at best.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

I will say it again.

Not every shinobi is created equal reaction wise and the Uchiha gaining 3t sharingan, MS and EMS, means they will eventually have better reflexes than all the others.

Some have top tier reflexes w/o needing a MS to augment their perception. The most obvious examples are Gai, Hashirama, Minato and Tobirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2014)

I think he loses to Mu & Onoki and might lose to A and Sandaime. He'd defeat the rest going from low dif(Hiruzen & Tsunade) to mid(Troll kage & Mei).

If you tweak the knowledge stipulations a bit and take away knowledge from his opponents, Itachi'd win all of these comfortably though.


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## Bkprince33 (Aug 30, 2014)

hadest fight will be the jinton twins, basically because if itachi one shots, one the other has the opening to one shot him.


itachi's best bet would be to clone feint one and attempt to distract them with a genjutsu, while he one shots the other, but that will be hard given both of there experience fighting the sharingon.




A and his father will posses a problem as well but not as big as the jinton brothers.

Aye didn't open up with his top speed on sasuke, so i doubt he will do so to itachi especially given the fact that he has his dad as back up, if it goes any where like it did vs sasuke, he will be trapped in a genjutsu before he knows it or he could even be one shotted by tsukiyomi.


this fight isn't as hard given he can one shot the third raikage with amatarasu and camp up in susano until the third finally dies, depends on how long it will take amatarasu to down the third and it depends on how well the third can fight while being lit on fire.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Itachi has better reflexes than Minato.



Precognition is not really advanced reflexes, though. If you're responding to the stimulus before it occurs, then it's pro(pre?)action I think.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi gets shitstomped in every match


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## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi and Minato have the same damn reflexes, just like every other top tier who lacks some manner of connection to the Juubi/Kaguya.

Like damn.



Rocky said:


> Precognition is not really advanced reflexes, though. If you're responding to the stimulus before it occurs, then it's pro(pre?)action I think.



Sharingan is not true precog--it's just reacting to the stimulus much earlier than would otherwise be possible normally. So it's got a predictive element, sure, but it extrapolates that based on a reaction.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi can't defeat any 2 Kage combination

Gaara and Yondaime would bury him between Gaara's Sand Tsunami and his dad's Gold Dust Tsunami

Mei and Troll would block LOS w/ Demonic Mist and Clam Mist. Even assuming that Itachi can see through the Clam's Genjutsu with Sharingan. He has no way to deal with the Mist blocking his vision and he'd be forced to spam Susano'o to defend against Joki Boi and Mei's massive Suitons. Spamming Susano'o his stamina is not going to hold out long enough for him to down both Gokage

Onoki and Mu Jinton rape him.

Ei and Sandaime each take too much effort individually for Itachi to take down for him to have enough stamina to defeat both

Tsunade Boost Hiruzen Elemental Jutsu to Chou Jinton levels and owns him.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

So where does it say that Itachi and Minato have the same reflexes? 

Forget that, they may have the same reflexes(don't agree with that but whatever), but how is every top tier, besides rikodou/juubi power up dudes, equal?

We have a range from BM Naruto to Onoki for fuck sake.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 30, 2014)

I agree with Turrin except for the last scenario with Tsunade.

The Kage underestimation is atrocious.
Gaara has shown that is sand can block Susanoo fairly quickly, and his interception feats are spot on. 
His father can do the same techniques Gaara can. Even from 10m which is a shitty but ok.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi is better than these individual Kage by miles; he has perfectly realistic chances of beating any of these pairs, though some would obviously be more doable than others.

Mei and Trollkage are completely fucked against Susano'o, for example; there is no way they can win.



Sorin said:


> So where does it say that Itachi and Minato have the same reflexes?



Both were evenly matched with Killer B in their brief exchanges with him, so it's transitive.



> Forget that, they may have the same reflexes(don't agree with that but whatever), but how is every top tier, besides rikodou/juubi power up dudes, equal?



Because Kishi doesn't care.



> We have a range from BM Naruto to Onoki for fuck sake.



Oonoki is not even close to top tier; he's Deidara tier, and their speed was shown to be the same.

Kakashi, Gai, Killer B, Obito, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Nagato, Itachi, Naruto, Sasuke... These are the kind of guys I'm talking about.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sharingan is not true precog--it's just reacting to the stimulus much earlier than would otherwise be possible normally. So it's got a predictive element, sure, but it extrapolates that based on a reaction.



Indeed. 

My point is that this predictive ability the Sharingan has isn't a boost in reflexes akin to something like Raiton no Yoroi. For example, the Sharingan won't really help him react to Hiraishin or anything else that pops out of thin air because there isn't any muscle movement to read. 

Itachi reacting to Muki Tensei Pua his reflexes above Sasuke's, but Sasuke's eyes can track things Itachi may not be able to. You can't react if you don't see something in time.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

I wonder if Hiraishin has a chakra signature, actually--it's a Jutsu, after all.

It may not be as convenient as the Sharingan seeing a tag "light up" before the Hiraishin user jumps there, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that there is a detail in the movement of Hiraishin that the Sharingan can track. It's just not something Kishi has bothered to explore.

I do think, however, that coming out of Hiraishin to attack would still give the Sharingan something to react to, albeit obviously not as much as running up to attack them normally.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is better than these individual Kage by miles; he has perfectly realistic chances of beating any of these pairs, though some would obviously be more doable than others.
> 
> Mei and Trollkage are completely fucked against Susano'o, for example; there is no way they can win.
> 
> ...



Even between some of those, there is some difference. 

EMS Madara is clearly above Killer Bee. He was reacting and dancing with V2 A. 

EMS Sasuke was beginning to track Juubito which was blitzing bitches left right and center prior to that. Eventually he was still overwhelmed by Juubito's speed. But that is the guy who was blitzing Hashirama and Tobirama. Well something akin to that.

Even if Kishi said screw it to power levels and shit, some differences still remain.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi even when healthy has not been portrayed to take on multiple Kage level fighters at the same time and win only guys like Hashirama, Minato(Edo), Madara have shown to be able to fight at this level , now Itachi would defeat every single one of these Kages mid=diff but he isn't winning against two.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Even between some of those, there is some difference.
> 
> EMS Madara is clearly above Killer Bee. He was reacting and dancing with V2 A.



Killer B reacted to Minato and saved A from getting blitzed out of Hiraishin.



> EMS Sasuke was beginning to track Juubito which was blitzing bitches left right and center prior to that. Eventually he was still overwhelmed by Juubito's speed. But that is the guy who was blitzing Hashirama and Tobirama. Well something akin to that.



Hashirama clone feinted Juubito's blitz while Tobirama used it to land his multiplying explosive tags. And Itachi proved faster than EMS Sasuke, reaction-wise.



> Even if Kishi said screw it to power levels and shit, some differences still remain.



I don't think Kishi has been very consistent about maintaining them.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 30, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi even when healthy has not been portrayed to take on multiple Kage level fighters at the same time and win only guys like Hashirama, Minato(Edo), Madara have shown to be able to fight at this level , now Itachi would defeat every single one of these Kages mid=diff but he isn't winning against two.



You've got to be kidding.
Mid dif?

If he resorts to Susanoo it turns into a high difficulty match
Ei outlasts
Gaara wins the figght is on a beach
Sandaime wins

Everyone else he can beat.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 30, 2014)

Itachi can clone feint the Raikage and blindside them.

Gaara is fodder for Genjutsu and just generally too slow and too weak to compete with Itachi.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Killer B reacted to Minato and saved A from getting blitzed out of Hiraishin.



Killer Bee didn't react to Minato. He anticipated the location where Minato would appear. I assume he felt that Minato placed a seal on his tentacle. And that happened because Minato didn't strike him directly. Like he did to Obito, twice. The same Obito which was reacting to 4 top tiers in speed and reflexes(KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai and KillerBee)

A knowing about KillerBee said that only 1 man was faster than him and Kishimoto treats reflexes as speed too.

As for Bee saving A, interception feats like that are widely inconsistent. We have Lee moving faster than the goudodadmas whereas it took double kamui speed to be able to outspeed them.

Same with Gai saving Kakashi from the same goudoudamas.

Base Naruto saving Sakura before Sasuke making a full swing and whatnot.





> Hashirama clone feinted Juubito's blitz while Tobirama used it to land his multiplying explosive tags. And Itachi proved faster than EMS Sasuke, reaction-wise.



That's why i said something akin to that. They were certainly below Juubito in speed and reflexes.

EMS Sasuke from the fight with Juubito is not the same as the one from the Kabuto fight. He even said that, slowly, he was managing to track Obito's speed. Meaning that it was a gradual evolution in his perception ability with EMS. Obito blitzed him when he emerged as a deranged fellow and grabbed his face before he could finish a sentence.







> I don't think Kishi has been very consistent about maintaining them.



Don't get me wrong, i see your point. Ever since introducing Juubi's jins and above the waters became very murky in terms of level below that. In one instance you had jin Obito owing bitches with the utmost ease, goudodama shield being able to tank 4 juubidamas like it was nothing and in the next instance you get rookies bypassing that with rasengans provided by Naruto. Fucking what.

Still think below Juubi jins there's a difference in speed between the dudes. Otherwise you'd have irrelevant Minato and Tobirama which are the 2 people which rely mostly on their speed. 

I don't think Kishi would let them be irrelevant.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 30, 2014)

After some thinking - yeah. Healthy Itachi ain't beating 2 Kage-lvls at the same time. I mean - while extremely sick and holding back he beat up Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru. And those two aren't even near "2 Kage-lvl fighters" obviously. Oh, wait a second...


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 30, 2014)

> Mei & Trollkage


Itachi has all the tools needed to take this one.

He can take care of one of them off the bat with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Or if he doesn't
he can see through TrollKage's Genjutsu with his Sharingan and he can easily avoid Mei's lava like Madara did, just with sheer speed.

From there he can Genjutsu Mei into killing herself

And he can use Susanoo to bust open TrollKage's clam. Itachi will probably have to use  Amaterasu to take out Jokey Boy and then he can proceed to seal TrollKage with Totsuka blade.

None of them can bust his Susanoo open or the speed to dodge Amaterasu.

Still, it's a high dif win if you ask me.



> Ōnoki & Mū


Onoki has vast experience on fighting Mangekyou users. He managed to defeat 5 of Madara's clones without getting caught in Genjutsu, and he can tell Muu how to fight againts it. Not only that, but Muu can split if he has beinghit by a lethal attack and I believe Onoki did the same thing once, high substitution jutsus are the best counter to Amaterasu.

So all that leaves Itachi with is Susanoo and they can outlast it, and one of them can get to it's back while the other fights Itachi, and they can either outlast him, or maybe even bust Susanoo if they attack from the back.




> A & Sandaime


This is fishy. Normally, Ei has the speed to avoid Itachi's techniques easily, and he also has knowledge on fighting Genjutsu, and Amaterasu. The problem is, his dad isn't as fast as he is, and if he sees his dad getting killed by Amaterasu, which is the perfect jutsu to bypass his regeneration, then Ei might start making dumb decisions like he did againts Sasuke, so in this particular situation I kinda see Itachi winning with high diff.



> Tsunade & Edo Hiruzen[/I]


Itachi owns both of them. None of them have counters to Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or even Totsuka.

Itachi can literally just own Tsunade with Tsukuyomi, and then proceed to seal Hiruzen with Totsuka.

This is the easiest fight out of all of em.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 30, 2014)

Niki said:


> Itachi can clone feint the Raikage and blindside them.
> 
> Gaara is fodder for Genjutsu and just generally too slow and too weak to compete with Itachi.



Not with Manga or Full knowledge. 
Clone feint won't do much against a V2 A or Sandaimes durability.

Itachi is actually to weak to compete with Hebi Sasuke let alone Gaara.
Sand > Susanoo attacks

Gaara never got caught in a genjutsu by the Sharingan users in the entire manga Part 2 and he faced Sasuke and Madara. That should say something. He's well suited for an MS user. Let's not forget Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I wonder if Hiraishin has a chakra signature, actually--it's a Jutsu, after all.
> 
> It may not be as convenient as the Sharingan seeing a tag "light up" before the Hiraishin user jumps there, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that there is a detail in the movement of Hiraishin that the Sharingan can track. It's just not something Kishi has bothered to explore.
> 
> I do think, however, that coming out of Hiraishin to attack would still give the Sharingan something to react to, albeit obviously not as much as running up to attack them normally.



Hmm, let me try to explain. 

Even with the godly foresight the Sharingan possesses, Obito didn't see Minato's jump coming; he could only respond with confusion. Since there was no "muscle twitch"  or whatever, Obito had to respond to Minato's FTG flank with his actual reflexes, and he failed miserably. 

If Sharingan sped up his reflexes, he probably would have been quick enough to respond to the stimulus (Minato's Hirashin jump) with Kamui and pass through Rasengan.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Indeed.
> 
> My point is that this predictive ability the Sharingan has isn't a boost in reflexes akin to something like Raiton no Yoroi. For example, the Sharingan won't really help him react to Hiraishin or anything else that pops out of thin air because there isn't any muscle movement to read.



There is chakra to read, however. Sure, 13 year old Obito or whatever didn't see it in time, or maybe saw it and didn't anticipate exactly what was about to happen, but Obito's never been Itachi.​


Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi even when healthy has not been portrayed to take on multiple Kage level fighters at the same time and win only guys like Hashirama, Minato(Edo), Madara have shown to be able to fight at this level , now Itachi would defeat every single one of these Kages mid=diff but he isn't winning against two.



"For both me and Orochimaru, killing Itachi would be impossible." Plus there's the intonation that Orochimaru wasn't willing to face Itachi even with Edo Tensei, albeit his Edo Hokage were terribly weakened.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Hmm, let me try to explain.
> 
> Even with the godly foresight the Sharingan possesses, Obito didn't see Minato's jump coming; he could only respond with confusion. Since there was no "muscle twitch"  or whatever, Obito had to respond to Minato's FTG flank with his actual reflexes, and he failed miserably.
> 
> If Sharingan sped up his reflexes, he probably would have been quick enough to respond to the stimulus (Minato's Hirashin jump) with Kamui and pass through Rasengan.



I agree that Sharingan won't help against Hirashin. Although the Hirashin user still needs to pop into existance to deliver the blow, so if he appears in the sharingan users field of vision his movements will still be anticipated.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Anticipation means didly squat if the one doing the anticipation isn't even as fast as Minato to begin with. Which is why Obito with MS enhanced by Hashirama juice couldn't react. He was completely blitzed. 

Not only did he outdo Obito in reflexes, his movement speed was also out of Obito's reach and top notch overall.

We've seen him crossing Konoha in a split second, we've seen A unable to react to a swing of his arm, he reacted and saved Kushina from Kurama's swipe, with shunshin, when it was few meters away, we've seen Minato circle the battlefield with kunais before the other Kages could reach it etc. Those speed feats are the best from non juubi/rikodou enhanced dudes.

But hey, don't let my opinion of him stand in the way of yours. 

Edit: Sorry Gai still the boss. My bad.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> There is chakra to read, however. Sure, 13 year old Obito or whatever didn't see it in time, or maybe saw it and didn't anticipate exactly what was about to happen, but Obito's never been Itachi.​



Reading Chakra does nothing. That only tells Itachi that a jutsu is going to be used. He doesn't know where Minato will end up, or if he's even using Hirashin. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Sharingan won't help against Hirashin. Although the Hirashin user still needs to pop into existance to deliver the blow, so if he appears in the sharingan users field of vision his movements will still be anticipated.



The Hiraishin user would likely flank to avoid this problem. 

Though it isn't really much of a problem at all. If Minato pops up in front of Itachi with Rasengan in his hand, the doesn't take the Sharingan to figure out that it's going to be rammed into his head.


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## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Reading Chakra does nothing. That only tells Itachi that a jutsu is going to be used. He doesn't know where Minato will end up, or if he's even using Hirashin.


I'm pretty sure Strat's referring to the tags themselves. They have the users chakra embedded in them so an Uchiha user can see the individual tags.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I'm pretty sure Strat's referring to the tags themselves. They have the users chakra embedded in them so an Uchiha user can see the individual tags.



That doesn't help if the tag isn't in their field of vision. 

I'm not sure how that would help ever, really.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Hiraishin user would likely flank to avoid this problem.
> 
> Though it isn't really much of a problem at all. If Minato pops up in front of Itachi with Rasengan in his hand, the doesn't take the Sharingan to figure out that it's going to be rammed into his head.



Sure, it just shows him the exact move Minato is going to do, so he knows from which angle it is coming from and makes it easier for him to dodge or counter accordingly.



Sorin said:


> Anticipation means didly squat if the one doing the anticipation isn't even as fast as Minato to begin with.



Read VOTE Sasuke vs Naruto.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi can clone feint the Raikage and blindside them.
> 
> Gaara is fodder for Genjutsu and just generally too slow and too weak to compete with Itachi.



Fucking please.

A would then just proceed the next Itachi. If he lariats the Clone then he isn't slowing down at all and then once notices it is a clone proceeds to go after the next target he sees while being cautious. Then Hiruzen is able to cast a jutsu or attack Itachi. If Itachi uses Susanoo then the Raikage just proceeds to dodge until Itachi tires and dies.


Gaara has a large amount of sand at his disposal, he can quickly overwhelm ANYTHING Itachi can manage to do.


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## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't help if the tag isn't in their field of vision.
> 
> I'm not sure how that would help ever, really.



Okay well If Itachi sees Minato throwing chakra tagged kunai I'm pretty sure he'd think something was up and either sub with a clone, or just straight up retreat to get a better view of things, hell even Killer Bee figured that out. 

I don't see how having a chakra coated radar of all the tags isn't helpful honestly. He can even see tags that are hidden, given Sasuke's ability to see beyond Stalagtites, his own skin, and even ground itself to view chakra.

I'm not saying it's a perfect counter but dojutsu def gives one an advantage vs Hirashin others wouldn't have.


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## Sorin (Aug 30, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure, it just shows him the exact move Minato is going to do, so he knows from which angle it is coming from and makes it easier for him to dodge or counter accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Read VOTE Sasuke vs Naruto.



Yeah Sasuke began to anticipate Naruto after achieving a 3 tomoe sharingan. Your point?

What does that have to do with Minato and Obito again? 

Once again, Obito with MS and juiced up with Hashirama cells couldn't move a finger before Minato hiraishined and stuck a kunai in his guts. Reflexes coupled with movement speed were so much above Obito's that a MS level perception ability meant nothing. Not sure why you compared that with Naruto and Sasuke at VOTE.

I'm not arguing something i think would happen, it actually happened.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Yeah Sasuke began to anticipate Naruto after achieving a 3 tomoe sharingan. Your point?
> 
> What does that have to do with Minato and Obito again?



Nothing. 

You said "Anticipation means didly squat if the one doing the anticipation isn't even as fast as Minato to begin with." 

I was only responding to that.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi can't defeat any 2 Kage combination


Because you say so?

Itachi sealed Orochimaru and could have defeated Hebi Sasuke at anytime while blind/dying and holding back not to kill Hebi Sasuke according to Tobi, and Hebi Sasuke, defeated Deidara, someone who would solo Old Hiruzen and Tsunade, and who defeated Gaara, a Kage. If Itachi makes such lightweight of one Kage level opponent, he can take two, especially since, um, he would have, according to Tobi.



> Mei and Troll would block LOS w/ Demonic Mist and Clam Mist. Even assuming that Itachi can see through the Clam's Genjutsu with Sharingan. He has no way to deal with the Mist blocking his vision and he'd be forced to spam Susano'o to defend against Joki Boi and Mei's massive Suitons. Spamming Susano'o his stamina is not going to hold out long enough for him to down both Gokage


Itachi probably takes down one of them before they can do shit, since he knows its againts two opponents, he'll likely use Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu right off the bat to even the odds. Then the other Kage is fodder to Itachi.





> Tsunade Boost Hiruzen Elemental Jutsu to Chou Jinton levels and owns him.



Tsunade only did this after like 5 chapters of fighting with Edo Madara. She wouldn't do this right off the bat, especially if they don't need it at first, since Itachi isn't likely to start off with Susanoo.

It's waaaaaaaaaaaaay more likely Itachi finishes Tsunade off with Amaterasu, a jutsu that completely bypasses her regeneration, and then seals off Edo Hiruzen with Totsuka, since this is an even weaker encarnation of someone who was weaker than Orochimaru, and Itachi dealt with Orochimaru with ease twice. Itachi is simply leaps and bounds ahead both of these, and can solo both of em together.

I know you don't like that Itachi's one of the few characters who can beat people without needing help in every fight he's in, but that's how it is bro.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 30, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Because you say so?
> 
> Itachi sealed Orochimaru and could have defeated Hebi Sasuke at anytime while blind/dying and holding back not to kill Hebi Sasuke according to Tobi, and Hebi Sasuke, defeated Deidara, someone who would solo Old Hiruzen and Tsunade, and who defeated Gaara, a Kage. If Itachi makes such lightweight of one Kage level opponent, he can take two, especially since, um, he would have, according to Tobi.
> 
> ...



Honestly the Deidara shit is getting old welcome to what 400 chapters later. Everyone has nee feats while Sick Itachi is dead so stop just stop.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Because you say so?


Because common-senses says so


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Okay well If Itachi sees Minato throwing chakra tagged kunai I'm pretty sure he'd think something was up and either sub with a clone, or just straight up retreat to get a better view of things, hell even Killer Bee figured that out.
> 
> I don't see how having a chakra coated radar of all the tags isn't helpful honestly. He can even see tags that are hidden, given Sasuke's ability to see beyond Stalagtites, his own skin, and even ground itself to view chakra.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a perfect counter but dojutsu def gives one an advantage vs Hirashin others wouldn't have.



Oh, you mean it assists in figuring out what Hiraishin does.

I mean, I was kind of imagining a scenario where he already knew that. Dōjutsu can prevent him from stepping on a hidden mark and getting lolbamflashed, but Itachi seems too Itachi to die to something like that. 

Dōjutsu does give him a slight advantage in that regard, but it won't help him react to Minato appearing out of thin air any better than he would without it. Itachi's reflexes are not better than Raikage's, so he _will_ get blitzed if he isn't super sharp with his Susano'o timing.


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## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Oh, you mean it assists in figuring out what Hiraishin does.
> 
> I mean, I was kind of imagining a scenario where he already knew that. Dōjutsu can prevent him from stepping on a hidden mark and getting lolbamflashed, but Itachi seems too Itachi to die to something like that.
> 
> Dōjutsu does give him a slight advantage in that regard, but it won't help him react to Minato appearing out of thin air any better than he would without it. Itachi's reflexes are not better than Raikage's, so he _will_ get blitzed if he isn't super sharp with his Susano'o timing.



I agree. All in all, as I have claimed since 2011 this match is too close to call. Although if Koto isn't banned imo Itachi gains a good advantage.


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## Rocky (Aug 30, 2014)

Koto Amatsukami would grant Itachi the win, though persuading someone to join your side with a subconscious illusion can work on many people, even those stronger than Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2014)

You just gave me a thread idea.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because common-senses says so



The problem is your common sense isn't the same as everyone else's. Thats why everyone was calling you crazy on the Sakura vs Itachi thread. Cause everyone else's common sense differs from yours


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 30, 2014)

The knowledge stipulated is the main determinant.

With only manga knowledge Itachi should clear all the pairs by genjutsuing one and soloing the other. Knowing only to avoid eye contact isn't enough to keep them safe from Itachi's prolific selection of tactics as it pertains to genjutsu. 

With full knowledge I think he can beat the  raikages but I'm not entirely confident in that outcome. Ei's Dad, who lacks sufficient speed or clones or any sort of trickery is going to get hit by amaterasu regardless of what he does. Ei is well suited for outlasting Itachi but if it came down to attrition I think Itachi would outsmart him before dying of exhaustion. Ei outlasting him is an understandable conclusion imo but I just think the gap in intelligence is too big for things to go that way. 

Muu and Onoki should win with Muu potentially dying. Onoki's had a pretty above-average portrayal for a kage and I can't see Itachi beating him and another solid kage simultaneously(though I think Itachi'd win 1v1).

He beats the mizukages and hokages regardless of knowledge stipulated.

The kazekages is tough to call. Gaara counters Itachi pretty hard but Itachi has had much better portrayal imo.  It could go either way this one.


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## CurlyHat (Aug 31, 2014)

Itachi get's his ass penetrated by every pair except Hiruzen and Tsunade, which he can beat in a high diff fight.

If anyone thinks Itachi can really win against any of the other three pairs, just please... Go die...

...Who am I kidding

Itachi solos via Totsuka Blitz.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> The problem is your common sense isn't the same as everyone else's. Thats why everyone was calling you crazy on the Sakura vs Itachi thread. Cause everyone else's common sense differs from yours


Too bad I only care what the author thinks. And the only characters Kishi has shown capable of defeating multiple Kages or Kage Class Shinobi would mop the floor with Itachi.


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Too bad I only care what the author thinks. And the only characters Kishi has shown capable of defeating multiple Kages or Kage Class Shinobi would mop the floor with Itachi.



But he beat Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru while sick.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Too bad I only care what the author thinks. And the only characters Kishi has shown capable of defeating multiple Kages or Kage Class Shinobi would mop the floor with Itachi.



The author portrayed Itachi way above your standart Kage. So yeah, there is nothing wrong with him defeating multiple kage level opponents.

Btw, I am talking about Itachi here, not "Turrin's Itachi."


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Too bad I only care what the author thinks. And the only characters Kishi has shown capable of defeating multiple Kages or Kage Class Shinobi would mop the floor with Itachi.



Actually, no. You don't. You choose what statements to use, and ignore others. You use the ones that are convenient to you.

For example, you like using the Itachi =< Jiraiya statement, but then discard the one that Kisame admitted that both Itachi and Jiraiya are at a higher level than he is, and state that Kisame is on the same level as Itachi.

The truth is, Itachi defeated Orochimaru in two pages, and Tobi stated he could have defeated Sasuke as well anytime in that fight, and that was a dying/almost blind Itachi that was holding back. So you saying that Itachi couldn't have done it while healthy/not blind and actually trying is just a flat out lie.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> But he beat Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru while sick.


Hebi-Sasuke is weaker than any Kage bar Start of PII-Gaara. Secondly Orochimaru didn't have his arms and lacked a host body. So he too was not at his best. And Itachi died from the strain of that battle.

However most importantly, Itachi did not fight those 2 at the same time. He fought them back to back. Which is vastly easier to accomplish. 

Basically if the thread was Itachi facing 1 of the weakest Kages, than afterwards facing a handicapped Kage you'd have a point. But here he is facing 2 Kages at once. And in all cases the weaker Kage of the duo is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, and the stronger Kage of the duo is stronger than handicapped Orochimaru.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Actually, no. You don't. You choose what statements to use, and ignore others. You use the ones that are convenient to you.
> 
> For example, you like using the Itachi =< Jiraiya statement, but then discard the one that Kisame admitted that both Itachi and Jiraiya are at a higher level than he is, and state that Kisame is on the same level as Itachi.



Actually I consider all statement. Because of Kisame's statement I consider P1-Kisame weaker than Jiriaya and Itachi. However because of Itachi's statement that P1-Kakashi would present a great deal of difficult for Kisame and the fact that Kisame absorbed massive amounts of Bijuu-Chakra, which was stated to increase his strength, as well as participated in many fights since then; I know  Kisame became more powerful by the time of his death.

If you show me the statement that says Kisame did not or could not grow in strength over 3 Years and Bijuu-Chakra did not increase his strength, than I will gladly go back to believing that Jiriaya and Itachi were still stronger than him. Otherwise Kisame's portrayal, feats, and statements all support Kisame increased in strength since PI



> The truth is, Itachi defeated Orochimaru in two pages, and Tobi stated he could have defeated Sasuke as well anytime in that fight, and that was a dying/almost blind Itachi that was holding back. So you saying that Itachi couldn't have done it while healthy/not blind and actually trying is just a flat out lie.


No the truth is a handicapped Itachi defeated a handicapped Orochimaru w/ his strongest Jutsu, that steals away his eyesight and his lifespan in exchange for his usage of said technique.

And his fight against Hebi-Sauske, and than latter handicapped Orochimaru; holds no relevance here as he did not fight those 2 at the same time. If he had done so and won, I would gladly be willing to believe he could beat 2 Kages, albeit the weakest Kages. But he did not do that; instead he fought one and than fought the other. Which is really a less impressive feat than what Gaara accomplished in the war, when he defeated Yondaime-Kazekage and than went on to defeat Nindaime-Mizukage.. (and  went on to fight Madara for awhile afterwards)  Does that mean Gaara would defeat Nindaime Mizukage and Yondaime Kazekage at the same time; hell fucking no.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke is weaker than any Kage bar Start of PII-Gaara. Secondly Orochimaru didn't have his arms and lacked a host body. So he too was not at his best. And Itachi died from the strain of that battle.
> 
> However most importantly, Itachi did not fight those 2 at the same time. He fought them back to back. Which is vastly easier to accomplish.
> 
> Basically if the thread was Itachi facing 1 of the weakest Kages, than afterwards facing a handicapped Kage you'd have a point. But here he is facing 2 Kages at once. And in all cases the weaker Kage of the duo is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, and the stronger Kage of the duo is stronger than handicapped Orochimaru.



How the hell was Orochimaru handicapped?

The guy was in his Yamata no Ori strong, which is his strongest form, and he was facing a blind/dying Itachi. Because he didn't know about Totsuka? Most people won't know about it.

Hebi Sasuke can't blitz and cut off Tsunade's head off with Chidori Eisou? Kirin isn't more powerful than her punches?

He can't blitz Mei?

This is just ridiculous. Sasuke defeated Deidara, holding back, someone who beat the Kazekage. Deidara is stronger than many Akatsukis.

And you pull out of your.... that Hebi Sasuke is not Kage level because .... you say so?


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke is weaker than any Kage bar Start of PII-Gaara.



I don't follow.

He has high speed and hand to hand skill (because of precognition), the Curse Seal to enhance his abilities with Natural Energy, genjutsu, Manda, the potential to one-shot most with Kirin, etc.

He's a fusion of Sasuke & Orochimaru, and he's stronger than many Kage.



> Secondly Orochimaru didn't have his arms and lacked a host body. So he too was not at his best. And Itachi died from the strain of that battle.



Orochimaru was in his strongest form, though.



> And in all cases the weaker Kage of the duo is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, and the stronger Kage of the duo is stronger than handicapped Orochimaru.



The 4th Kazekage, Mei, and Old Hiruzen are not stronger than Sasuke. 

You tell me what they've shown that makes them stronger. Go ahead, make a thread and poll and see what kind of responses you get.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> He has high speed and hand to hand skill (because of precognition), the Curse Seal to enhance his abilities with Natural Energy, genjutsu, Manda, the potential to one-shot most with Kirin, etc.
> 
> He's a fusion of Sasuke & Orochimaru, and he's stronger than many Kage.


Which Kage is he beating besides SPII Gaara?



> Orochimaru was in his strongest form, though.


So was Itachi, but obviously he was not at his best. Just like obviously Orochimaru who suffers from body failure w/o a host and has no arms was not at his best. 



> he 4th Kazekage, Mei, and Old Hiruzen are not stronger than Sasuke.


They would fuck Sasuke up. 

Sasuke can't survive Yondaime-Kazekage's opening Gold Dust Tsunami
Sasuke can't even approach Mei due to her Acid
Sasuke is an elemental fighter primarily so all of his shit would get shut down by Hiruzen's superior command of the elemental wheel, and he'd get owned.



> You tell me what they've shown that makes them stronger. Go ahead, make a thread and poll and see what kind of responses you get.


I really don't know what response I would get or care. All I care about is what's shown in the manga. You have one charater who Sasuke can't survive the opening move of. You have another character that Sasuke needed Susano'o to survive 3 seconds against in the manga. You have another character who was stated to be nigh equivalent to Orochimaru, who Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to, and would shut down all of his Ninjutsu with the opposing element. Hebi-Sasuke is not as strong as any of these fighters


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 31, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> How the hell was Orochimaru handicapped?
> 
> The guy was in his Yamata no Ori strong, which is his strongest form, and he was facing a blind/dying Itachi. Because he didn't know about Totsuka? Most people won't know about it.
> 
> ...



No no. Gaara was holding back as well. He could have beaten Deidara. That should be obvious. He didn't even use Shukaku. Not to mention he saved his village.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 31, 2014)

Most mid tier Akatsuki(and Hebi sasuke tier) shinobi  would floor guys like Tsunade, Hiruzen, Mei, Gaara(Deidara did in canon), Gaara's dad. 

Raikage was matched against a Novice MS user and the best he could achieve was to force out a draw.
Danzo fought a stronger version(still not fully developed though) of that and lost as a result.

Itachi is a full fledged MS user, that alone puts him above  your average kage in terms of portrayal, despite his name being Itachi and all the extra hype surrounding him.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin, come on, all you do is pass of your opinion and try to make everyone see it that way, that is not what the manga showed.

You're just using Battledome logic now and saying the author stated it that way.

Old Hiruzen gets blitzed and has absolutely no feats, Gaara's dad was portrayed as the weakest Kage, taken down by Orochimaru, someone who Itachi one-paneled twice, and Mei was the weakest of the 5 Kages fighting Madara, even weaker than Tsunade and Gaara. Mei has absolutely no speed, no taijutsu, no genjutsu, and her lava is dodgable. The only reason Sasuke didn't dodge it was because he was in a close space and was already tired.

Hebi Sasuke beats all of em, and this is Itachi, not Hebi Sasuke.

Itachi managed do dodge Killer Bee's attack that tried to blindsight him, while fighting KCM Naruto, which is much stronger than most Kages and when Itachi got serious, Naruto stated Bee was fucked.

And you're telling me Itachi can't beat two Kages because you say so? Pfft.

So basically Itachi beats 2 Kage levels in manga, but he can't do it in your eyes?

Or he one-shots one, but he can't beat two?

I'm sorry but you're opinion of the manga is just wrong.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 31, 2014)

Yet that thread was made and guess what? He failed.
Feats suggest he could beat Hiruzen, Gaaras dad, Mei and 50/50 on Deidara with no knowledge.

SP2 Gaara would thrash Hebi Sasuke in a desert. He isn't surviving the pressure that stopped C3. 
Deidara was well suited to fight Gaara in a desert due to FUCKING FLIGHT, Sasuke can't fly and especially not as fast as Deidara.


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## Hachibi (Aug 31, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Yet that thread was made and guess what? He failed.
> Feats suggest he could beat Hiruzen, Gaaras dad, Mei and 50/50 on Deidara with no knowledge.



Which was the entire point about the Hebi Sasuke topic.


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So was Itachi, but obviously he was not at his best. Just like obviously Orochimaru who suffers from body failure w/o a host and has no arms was not at his best.



So make it healthy Itachi and Healthy Orochimaru to even it out... 



> Sasuke can't survive Yondaime-Kazekage's opening Gold Dust Tsunami



lol Manda FCD GG.

If the fight is close range, Chidori Eisō GG.

Both of those are faster than the gold dust wave process. 



> Sasuke can't even approach Mei due to her Acid



If she camps, he flies up into the air to prepare for Kirin.

GG.



> Sasuke is an elemental fighter primarily so all of his shit would get shut down by Hiruzen's superior command of the elemental wheel, and he'd get owned.



Shame that Hiruzen's stamina is so poor. Hiruzen can't spam these elemental attacks; he get's outlasted without a doubt in my mind, Anything he hits Sasuke with gets tanked by a snake meat shield or the Juin like Deidara's C2 was.



> You have one charater who Sasuke can't survive the opening move of. You have another character that Sasuke needed Susano'o to survive 3 seconds against in the manga. You have another character who was stated to be nigh equivalent to Orochimaru, who Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to.



Sasuke is faster than Yondaime Kazekage and therefore oneshots him first.

Sasuke needed Susano'o against Mei because the fight was in an enclosed room, and Sasuke had just been through a brawl with a stronger Kage than Mei. You love to overlook details.

Hiruzen was not stated to be equal to Orochimaru; The Sannin _toyed_ with the old man. Furthermore, Hebi Sasuke didn't admit inferiority to Orochimaru. Hebi Sasuke is a fusion of the two, so that doesn't even make sense.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So make it healthy Itachi and Healthy Orochimaru to even it out...


Okay, but your point was about Sick-Itachi.



> lol Manda FCD GG.


How does FCD help Sasuke survive Gold Dust Tsunami



> If the fight is close range, Chidori Eisō GG.


Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust kept up with Gaara's Gourd-Sand, there is no speed blitzing here



> If she camps, he flies up into the air to prepare for Kirin.
> 
> GG.


Than gets raped by massive Suiton Water Dragon



> Shame that Hiruzen's stamina is so poor. Hiruzen can't spam these elemental attacks; he get's outlasted without a doubt in my mind, Anything he hits Sasuke with gets tanked by a snake meat shield or the Juin like Deidara's C2 was.


Hiruzen doesn't need to spam. Sasuke uses Raiton Variant he gets blown away by Fuuton and than Hiruzen creates a KB to use Katon to combo with it and burn him alive. That's two elements.

Meat shielding is not going to stop the heat from Katon/Fuuton on that scale killing him.



> Sasuke is faster than Yondaime Kazekage and therefore oneshots him first.


Sasuke is not faster than the Kazekage's Gold Dust



> Sasuke needed Susano'o against Mei because the fight was in an enclosed room, and Sasuke had just been through a brawl with a stronger Kage than Mei. You love to overlook details.


Closed room still had enough room to dodge Mei's Lava, and if he had enough chakra for Susano'o he had enough chakra to use other Jutsu, namely Shunshin. 



> Hiruzen was not stated to be equal to Orochimaru; The Sannin toyed with the old man.


Yes he was in the Fan-book. Orochimaru had the edge as he had time to prep-Edo-Tensei



> Furthermore, Hebi Sasuke didn't admit inferiority to Orochimaru.


Yes he did. Karin directly states why is someone stronger than Orochimaru having such trouble with Deidara, to which Sasuke states he only won because Orochimaru was handicapped. 



> Hebi Sasuke is a fusion of the two, so that doesn't even make sense


Hebi Sasuke gained some of Orochimaru's powers but not all of them. He could not use Edo-Tensei, he could not use Yamata no Orochi, he could not control Manda w/o Genjutsu raping him first, he could not spam Oral Rebirth as Orochimaru could, he did not have Orochimaru's insane regeneration, he did not have Orochimaru's knowledge/exp/etc...


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin sure loves normal statements. 

Itachi is stronger than start of Part 2 Sasuke and start of Part 2 Orochimaru. He is also stronger than a team of those two. But an amalgamation of those two would result in a shinobi standing a chance - given what information was available on Itachi at that time. Just that logically puts Hebi Sasuke above Start of Part 2 Orochimaru. Who was confirmed Kage-lvl. Who off-paneled 4th Kazekage and killed Old Hiruzen. Even if you include retcon about Oro's arms - Hebi Sasuke would still be solid Kage-lvl. Based on him being above Orochimaru that fought KN4 - which was a damn good performance. Oh yeah, there was also statement about Start of Part 2 Sasuke being superior to KN4. 
But hey - there is more! Naruto needed to reach/exceed early P2 Kakashi level to stand a chance against Start of P2 Sasuke. And Kakashi was deemed good enough to be Hokage around that time. 

Pre-Hebi Sasuke was at the Kage-lvl. With Oro's abilities and potential of unleashing Oro(which is closer to a tie not proper win but still) he can beat quite a lot of official Kages and S-ranked folks. 

Don't bother with responds, Turrin. We would never agree on anything. Just my imo on the subject. And sorry for no links. Lazy. Those statements are known to all either way.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Exacly. Even part 2 Kakashi was stated as Hokage level by Tsunade and Jiraiya agreed and I doubt they even knew about Kamui. And Naruto had to surpass Kakashi w.o Kamui to stand a chance againts Sasuke. Sasuke WAS Kage level back then. Stating otherwise is Turrin lying so he could downplay Itachi's feat.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Don't bother with responds, Turrin. We would never agree on anything. Just my imo on the subject. And sorry for no links. Lazy. Those statements are known to all either way.


You want to call me out, but than at the same time don't want me to address your points lol. Yeah that's because you already know how wrong your points are; so I won't even bother.

Edit: I also love how you argue something that was never my point to begin with. Never said Hebi-Sasuke wasn't Kage-level. For all I know he could WTFPWN Shodai-Kazekage or Sandaime-Mizukage. What I do know is all the Kages we've seen bar SPII-Gaara are better than him.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You want to call me out, but than at the same time don't want me to address your points lol. Yeah that's because you already know how wrong your points are; so I won't even bother.
> 
> Edit: I also love how you argue something that was never my point to begin with. Never said Hebi-Sasuke wasn't Kage-level. For all I know he could WTFPWN Shodai-Kazekage or Sandaime-Mizukage. What I do know is all the Kages we've seen bar SPII-Gaara are better than him.



Because of your opinion they are better than him?


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## OutlawJohn (Aug 31, 2014)

Naturally the Itachi fanbase still cries blitz in all scenerios. First, I'd just like to point out that barring the godlike creatures that have been battling in the Narutoverse as of late, no top-tier character is getting blitz by another equally tiered character. But that is besides the point, let's see these match ups.

*Itachi vs Gaara + Father* on a *Fucking Beach*

This is probably where he dies the hardest. His speed, which can't blitz Gaara anyway, means especially nothing when everywhere he goes, turns, or steps is literally under Gaara's control. Tsukuyomi is not effective at this range, and Gaara has dealt with Amaterasu at even closer ranges than 10 meters. Susano'o you say? Well, what stops Gaara from pulling Itachi right out from under it like he did with Madara? Both scenarios work the same. Gaara knows everything he needs to know about the Sharingan and Itachi will never get close enough in this location to be dangerous.

Itachi vs Gaara alone on not a beach is much more even match.

PS: I really hope you mean Yondaime as in the Fourth Kazekage, and not Minato ... because then this is unjust treatment of one of the series' best characters.

*Mei and Trollkage* on a *Fucking Beach*

Once again, I return to very simple fact that from 30 feet or any distance for that matter, Itachi is not blitzing Mei, who fought and survived five Susano'o Madara clones on her own, and neither is he doing that to Trollkage. The issue with this whole scenerio is that Itachi can't come in close, because Mei can literally melt a Susano'o with her acid mist and going out large range leaves him to fight against Joki Boy and Trollkage's Hydrafacation techniques alone. Again, I repeat that they are on a *fucking beach* and TrollKage's body is made of water.

Not to mention, both characters will immediately look to block his line of sight with their mist techniques.

How exactly does Itachi defeat Trollkage anyway, especially in the full knowledge scenario? He might be able to seal them in the manga knowledge scenario. But in full knowledge, what stops Trollkage from summoning Joki Boy and then turning into a giant wave of water that cannot be sealed, burned, genjutsued or Taijutsu'd.

Fairer fight = Itachi vs either of these people one on one.

*Onoki and Mu*

Ten meters ... full knowledge. They fly away, Itachi is an ant beneath a magnifying glass to these two. Again, one on one is a different story. He has the potential to defeat either of them. But knowing what they do about the Mangekyo Sharingan, he has no chance, especially against them both.

They start out of range and soon that range gets too big for him to ever get past without the new flying Gundam-Susano'o that he hasn't been issued yet. Jinton from the skies evaporates him.

*A vs Sandaime*

Once again I'll return to the fact that he is out of range, not blitzing either of these monsters or even killing them. I will admit, with manga knowledge me might seal them both from their shear arrogance and willingness to tank shit. Full knowledge, however. He has no choice but to hole up in Susan'o and wait for it to kill him of chakra exhaustion.

*Tsunade and Edo Hiruzen*

So Hiruzen, who avoided Ten-Tailed Obito from a similar distance long enough to totally deduce the strengths, weaknesses and properties of the black rods will be blitzed by Itachi here? I find it hard to believe.

Tsunade, who fought five Madara clones alone and survived, is going to be blitzed by Itachi?

Stop, its an insult to high-tier characters.

Again, the manga knowledge scenario gives him the advantage that Tsunade might try to tank his sealing sword, leaving him with just Edo Hiruzen who he should be able to defeat from manga showings.

But in the full knowledge scenario, its not happening. His initial range is too far from any Mangekyo Sharingan techniques to be effective. He is certainly faster than both of them, but might I remind you that Hiruzen+Pole is possibly the most skillful close range fighter in the manga, and that Tsunade is essentially indestructible and also incredibly skilled at close range combat.

*Conclusion*

As a general rule of thumb, in my humble opinion, there are high-Kage-level characters and characters beyond that level. A high-Kage-level character does not take on two other high Kage-level characters and win, not usually. While its certainly possible for Itachi to win any of these scenarios, it is also very implausible. I would say that any character weaker than Nagato does not take on two Kages at a time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 31, 2014)

OutlawJohn said:


> Naturally the Itachi fanbase still cries blitz in all scenerios.



Nice way to start a post. Point finger @ a fanbase and blame all of them for something they haven't done. And then follow it up by a completely subjective and unsubstantiated statement to justify it for yourself.

OutlawJohn is spewing horsehit as usual. See what I did there ?


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## OutlawJohn (Aug 31, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice way to start a post. Point finger @ a fanbase and blame all of them for something they haven't done. And then follow it up by a completely subjective and unsubstantiated statement to justify it for yourself.
> 
> OutlawJohn is spewing horsehit as usual. See what I did there ?



Oh, I missed you the most Grimmjow. You and your beautiful attacks. As an Itachi-fan, though nowhere near your level, I feel pretty comfortable starting such. You may not have cried blitz, but your young disciples certainly did.

And Dr White, you gonna reply or just neg me? Cause I could careless. I get on this site once every six months. My rep bar isn't all that important to me.


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How does FCD help Sasuke survive Gold Dust Tsunami



Kazekage doesn't start with the gold out. He has to make the handseal, put his hands on the ground, the pigment around his eyes darkens, and finally the gold is summoned.

Sasuke just has to bite his finger and slap the ground, so FCD kills fodderkage before he can even manage to bring out the dust.



> Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust kept up with Gaara's Gourd-Sand, there is no speed blitzing here



lol @ Yondaime Kazekage somehow managing to summon out the dust before Sasuke used a sealess lighting spear.



> Than gets raped by massive Suiton Water Dragon





He's flying. He simply moves to the side and avoids it. He'll see it coming a mile away; the Sharingan can read hand signs. 



> Meat shielding is not going to stop the heat from Katon/Fuuton on that scale killing him.



I don't remember any DC feats from Hiruzen's combo that put it above C2.



> Closed room still had enough room to dodge Mei's Lava, and if he had enough chakra for Susano'o he had enough chakra to use other Jutsu, namely Shunshin.



As soon as he tried to stand up, he doubled over in pain from Susano'o. Had he not fought the Raikage, that wouldn't have happened. 



> Yes he did. Karin directly states why is someone stronger than Orochimaru having such trouble with Deidara, to which Sasuke states he only won because Orochimaru was handicapped.



That only puts the Sasuke that actually _fought_ Orochimaru below him.



> Hebi Sasuke gained some of Orochimaru's powers but not all of them. He could not use Edo-Tensei, he could not use Yamata no Orochi, he could not control Manda w/o Genjutsu raping him first, he could not spam Oral Rebirth as Orochimaru could, he did not have Orochimaru's insane regeneration, he did not have Orochimaru's knowledge/exp/etc...



All Sasuke lacked was the ability to use the Hydra and Edo Tensei. He also wasn't immortal like Orochimaru.

However, Orochimaru doesn't have the Sharingan, chidori variants, Kirin, fast flicker, etc.

Orochimaru really doesn't stand a chance against Sasuke unless he has Edo Tensei prepared.


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2014)

OutlawJohn said:


> Naturally the Itachi fanbase still cries blitz in all scenerios. First, I'd just like to point out that barring the godlike creatures that have been battling in the Narutoverse as of late, no top-tier character is getting blitz by another equally tiered character. But that is besides the point, let's see these match ups.
> 
> *Itachi vs Gaara + Father* on a *Fucking Beach*
> 
> ...







Thread Is Now Over !!!! 5 star post and I completely agree with every single point made here....


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kazekage doesn't start with the gold out. He has to make the handseal, put his hands on the ground, the pigment around his eyes darkens, and finally the gold is summoned.
> 
> Sasuke just has to bite his finger and slap the ground, so FCD kills fodderkage before he can even manage to bring out the dust.


If Sasuke wants to land FCD. He needs to


bite his finger to draw blood
move accross the distance between himself and the Kazekage
Jump over the Kazekage's head or situate himself in such a way that manda will be summoned on top of the kazekage
cast Kuchiyose

All of this stuff can be done quickly; depending on starting distance, but so can the Kazekage's steps of putting his hand on the ground and forming circles on his eyes. 

It's very unlikely that Sasuke accomplishes this before Kazekage can pull out his gold-dust; in most scenario's. Not to mention it's completely OOC, as Hebi-Sasuke has never opted for his opening move to be FCD-Manda. Maybe if Sasuke had full knowledge and knew he had to kill the Kazekage before Gold-Dust Tsunami, than he might opt for this as a strategy. But at that point your giving Hebi-Sasuke the knowledge advantage and distance advantage, just to give him a chance to win; that does not speak towards Hebi-Sasuke being stronger than the Kazekage, rather it speaks to him being much weaker than the Kazekage.



> lol @ Yondaime Kazekage somehow managing to summon out the dust before Sasuke used a sealess lighting spear.


The spear only covers 5m. So anything beyond 5m and this isn't working period. Likewise if the battlefield doesn't have clear LOS, this isn't working ether. 

If the battle starts within 5m, Sasuke still needs to decided to open with the spear the moment the match begins. The only time Hebi-Sasuke has even remotely acted this way was when bloodlusted against Itachi, but even than there was more than enough time for the Kazekage to summon gold dust, if he had been in Itachi's situation. Even if Sasuke did OOC start with it faster than he did against Itachi, chances are Yondaime-Kazekage could put his hands to ground before the spear extended to it's full 5m length. So really it's only has a good shot of hitting the Kazekage, if Sasuke is at point blank range

So once again we need to give Sasuke situational advantages to stand any chance of defeating the Kazekage before Gold-Dust comes out. 



> He's flying. He simply moves to the side and avoids it. He'll see it coming a mile away; the Sharingan can read hand signs.


Dude like what the fuck.... I mean seriously. Hebi-Sasuke has only shown extremely limited flight. He hasn't shown high speed flight in the slightest. Now suddenly he's evading Mei's massive Water-Dragon that crossed the distance of Onoki's Massive Jinton Cube in a flash like instant:
this



> I don't remember any DC feats from Hiruzen's combo that put it above C2.


I don't remember C2 being a constant flame that burns someone alive, so it's a completely incomparable situation. 



> As soon as he tried to stand up, he doubled over in pain from Susano'o. Had he not fought the Raikage, that wouldn't have happened.


First off no he did not:
this

He doubled over and his fatigue from the Raikage battle was mentioned when he went to use and even higher variant of Susano'o (V2):
this

Second off is your standpoint really that Susano'o costs less chakra and is less taxing than using Shunshin or whatever you think Sasuke could have done to evade Mei's Lava?



> That only puts the Sasuke that actually fought Orochimaru below him.


No Rocky, because the context of the statement was why if Sasuke was stronger than Orochimaru did he perform so poorly against Deidara. Sasuke post Oro absorption was the one who performed so poorly against Deidara, not pre-oro absorption.



> All Sasuke lacked was the ability to use the Hydra and Edo Tensei. He also wasn't immortal like Orochimaru.


So all Sasuke lacked was Orochimaru's best abilities and Orochimaru's knowledge/exp/etc... 

That makes Orochimaru much stronger than Hebi-Sasuke

Also I'd like to know when Sasuke showed he can spam Oral Rebirth. When Sasuke showed he could use Kuchiyose Roshomon. When Sasuke showed he could use Mandara no Jin. When Sasuke showed he had Orochimaru's extending and telepathically controllable Ksunagi Sword. When he showed he could use Fuutons like Orochimaru. When he showed he could use WSM like Orochimaru or Fuushi Tensei like Orochimaru. When he showed he could control Manda w/o Genjutsu raping him like Orochimaru. When he showed he could use body modification like Orochimaru. When he showed he can use Leech All creation like Orochimaru. etc....

Sasuke had knowledge on and the ability to use some but not all of Orochimaru's techniques.



> However, Orochimaru doesn't have the Sharingan, chidori variants, Kirin, fast flicker, etc.


All of which are inferior to the shit Orochimaru does have.



> Orochimaru really doesn't stand a chance against Sasuke unless he has Edo Tensei prepared.


Orochimaru would rape Hebi-Sasuke. Hebi-Sasuke can't even damage him outside of Kirin a Jutsu Orochimaru has full knowledge of and would be able to prepare for and counter in a myriad of ways. If indeed Kirin could even kill Orochimaru in the first place.

Sasuke by all rights lost to a bed ridden and armless Orochimaru, and only survived thanks to his will-power overcoming Orochimaru's in the Fuushi Tensei dimension. If Orochimaru was going for the kill he'd have been dead the moment he was caught by White-Snake-Venom. Yes he gained some of Orochimaru's Jutsu and passive regen after that, but the gap was so wide before than that there is no way in hell those Jutsu allowed him to cross that gap or worse yet widen it.

Hell I don't think Hebi-Sasuke doesn't even have an performance as impressive as when Orochimaru fought KN4, who had both body failure issues and was missing his arms. Nor do I think Hebi-Sasuke could even beat that Orochimaru, let alone Orochimaru at his best.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

Sasuke may as well beat Gaara's dad. The Yondaime Kazekage was portrayed as one of the weakest Kages, Gaara defeating him in just a few panels.

So you were proven wrong Turrin. Itachi *can* beat two kage level opponents because according to Tobi he would have done it.

And it's not surprising at all considering if he can defeat a Kage level in just a few panels like Orochimaru, adding another one isn't that much of a problem, considering how even Killer Bee couldn't blindsight Itachi, while he was fighting KCM Naruto.


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> But at that point your giving Hebi-Sasuke the knowledge advantage and distance advantage, just to give him a chance to win; that does not speak towards Hebi-Sasuke being stronger than the Kazekage, rather it speaks to him being much weaker than the Kazekage.



I don't actually think that wave of dust would kill Sasuke, ya know. He could likely tunnel out of it with Manda if he was caught, somehow.



> The spear only covers 5m. So anything beyond 5m and this isn't working period. Likewise if the battlefield doesn't have clear LOS, this isn't working ether. So once again we need to give Sasuke situational advantages to stand any chance of defeating the Kazekage before Gold-Dust comes out.



Five meters is like a standard, tournament distance.

Meaning it's neutral. There is a reason the Chunin exams didn't start the kids 25m away from each other.

And at that distance, this range-game that Yondaime would prefer to fight won't come into play because Sasuke will have already killed him in a dozen different ways with a Raiton variant of his choice.



> Dude like what the fuck.... I mean seriously. Hebi-Sasuke has only shown extremely limited flight. He hasn't shown high speed flight in the slightest. Now suddenly he's evading Mei's massive Water-Dragon that crossed the distance of Onoki's Massive Jinton Cube in a flash like instant:
> 1



Considering he's far away and has plenty of time to react, as well as the Sharingan to read her hand seals and predict it..

He dodges it.



> I don't remember C2 being a constant flame that burns someone alive, so it's a completely incomparable situation.



This flame technique might not even burn through the snake meat shield, let alone Sasuke's flame resistant wings.

Not to mention Sasuke could just dodge it, so.....



> First off no he did not:
> 1



On the next page, he commented on how much pain he was in...

_____

I'll make a thread regarding Orochimaru vs. Sasuke as to keep these posts in check, length wise.


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't actually think that wave of dust would kill Sasuke, ya know. He could likely tunnel out of it with Manda if he was caught, somehow.


When did Manda show he can tunnel through thousands of tons of Gold?
When did Sasuke shown he can control Manda w/o Genjutsu raping him?
When did Sasuke show he can survive thousands of tons of Gold on top of him long enough for Manda to tunnel out?



> Five meters is like a standard, tournament distance.


So next time Sasuke fights Yondaime-Kazekage in the CE Prelims or Finals and full knowledge, he might have a chance to win. Otherwise he gets decimated.



> Meaning it's neutral. There is a reason the Chunin exams didn't start the kids 25m away from each other.


Were just ignoring the FOD part of the exams? Also why the hell are we assuming CE's are the guide for what a fair battle in the Ninja world is. 

Truth of the matter is most battles do not start at 5m. One or more of the fighters become aware of them before getting within 5m of each other.



> And at that distance, this range-game that Yondaime would prefer to fight won't come into play because Sasuke will have already killed him in a dozen different ways with a Raiton variant of his choice.


So basically, at that range you can actually make up an argument for Sasuke, hence why you choose it.



> Considering he's far away and has plenty of time to react, as well as the Sharingan to read her hand seals and predict it..
> 
> He dodges it.


Hebi Sasuke will need to be vastly farther away than the size of Cho Jinton. So basically Hebi-Sasuke is like 50m away against Mei and 3m away against Yondaime-Kazeage. Yeah that's real fair Rocky. 



> This flame technique might not even burn through the snake meat shield, let alone Sasuke's flame resistant wings.


Yup ShinSuusenju matching Katon when enhanced with ShinSuusenju matching Fuuton won't burn through Fodder Snake.



> Not to mention Sasuke could just dodge it, so.....


when has Sasuke shown the ability to dodge that AOE.



> On the next page, he commented on how much pain he was in..


Yeah he comments about the pain Susano'o always causes


----------



## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When did Manda show he can tunnel through thousands of tons of Gold?
> When did Sasuke shown he can control Manda w/o Genjutsu raping him?
> When did Sasuke show he can survive thousands of tons of Gold on top of him long enough for Manda to tunnel out?



"Thousands of tons"...?

What exactly has the Gold crushed that is as durable as Manda or CS2 Sasuke?



> Truth of the matter is most battles do not start at 5m. One or more of the fighters become aware of them before getting within 5m of each other.



I don't care how far apart people when most battles start, because the circumstances aren't exactly fair in most battles.

Tournament fights are constructed as to determine a victor under the most neutral of conditions, and since tournaments start at less than a 5 meter distance in the manga, I'm going to assume that is the fairest distance to start a fight at here in the Battledome.



> Hebi Sasuke will need to be vastly farther away than the size of Cho Jinton. So basically Hebi-Sasuke is like 50m away against Mei and 3m away against Yondaime-Kazeage. Yeah that's real fair Rocky.



Oh, I was giving Mei the benefit of the doubt and assuming the fight was at range.

Starting close up, Mei get's fucking speed blitzed, because I really don't see her being a tier 4.5/5 in speed, nor do her feats support that.



> Yup ShinSuusenju matching Katon when enhanced with ShinSuusenju matching Fuuton won't burn through Fodder Snake.



Possibly not, no, and you still have yet to give me feats to the contrary. 



> when has Sasuke shown the ability to dodge that AOE.



What AoE? 



> Yeah he comments about the pain Susano'o always causes



My point.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> "Thousands of tons"...?
> 
> What exactly has the Gold crushed that is as durable as Manda or CS2 Sasuke?
> .


Yondaime-Kazekage's Gold Dust Tsunami was the same size as Gaara's Sand Tsunami. Gaara's Sand Tsunami was this large:
_Sannin parallel. _



> I don't care how far apart people when most battles start, because the circumstances aren't exactly fair in most battles.


So you don't care how the fight would actually go in Naruto-World or Manga. K, gotcha.



> Tournament fights are constructed as to determine a victor under the most neutral of conditions, and since tournaments start at less than a 5 meter distance in the manga, I'm going to assume that is the fairest distance to start a fight at here in the Battledome.


Can you quote me where this was stated.



> Oh, I was giving Mei the benefit of the doubt and assuming the fight was at range.


Sure you were. Anyway there is a difference between the fight being at range and Sasuke starting vastly further away than Cho Jinton's size. Though if you want to go that route Sasuke would still loose terribly, even though he might actually survive a Suiton or two.



> Starting close up, Mei get's fucking speed blitzed, because I really don't see her being a tier 4.5/5 in speed, nor do her feats support that.


Yeah because that's totally how it went down in the manga, oh wait.



> Possibly not, no, and you still have yet to give me feats to the contrary.


Matching ShinSuusenju isn't a feat I guess 



> What AoE?


The Katon was close to half the size of Shinsuusenju. I don't even want to imagine how big the Katon/Fuuton combo would be.



> My point.


Your point was that he was too exhausted from the Raikage battle to evade. Yet somehow Susano'o magical cost less chakra than Shunshin and some how also magically the pain he always experiences when using Susano'o has to do with the exhaustion from the Raikage fight.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yondaime-Kazekage's Gold Dust Tsunami was the same size as Gaara's Sand Tsunami. Gaara's Sand Tsunami was this large:
> _Sannin parallel. _



I know. That doesn't mean thousands of tons, and Sasuke is not being smashed with the entire mass of that gold either.



> So you don't care how the fight would actually go in Naruto-World or Manga. K, gotcha.



What do you mean?

A fair fight in the Naruto manga starts at _less_ than five meters, or do you believe that Kishimoto intended for the tournaments in the Narutoverse to be unfair?



> Can you quote me where this was stated.



It's common sense. Tournaments are obviously not set up in a way to give one party the advantage. That would defeat the purpose. 



> Sure you were. Anyway there is a difference between the fight being at range and Sasuke starting vastly further away than Cho Jinton's size. Though if you want to go that route Sasuke would still loose terribly, even though he might actually survive a Suiton or two.



Sasuke doesn't need to be 50m+ away to avoid her stock Suiton. It's predictable and he has good reflexes, so he'll manage just fine. 



> Yeah because that's totally how it went down in the manga, oh wait.



Completely different circumstances. 



> Matching ShinSuusenju isn't a feat I guess



What are the feats of the statue's fire or wind streams? Matching Hiruzen?



> The Katon was close to half the size of Shinsuusenju.



:sanji

That's not even remotely close.



> Your point was that he was too exhausted from the Raikage battle to evade. Yet somehow Susano'o magical cost less chakra than Shunshin and some how also magically the pain he always experiences when using Susano'o has to do with the exhaustion from the Raikage fight.



Your original point was that Sasuke needed Susano'o to survive three seconds against Mei's acid.

That's only true if Chojiro hits him into an enclosed room, and he's in tremendous pain while Mei sets up her acid.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I know. That doesn't mean thousands of tons, and Sasuke is not being smashed with the entire mass of that gold either.


I don't think you realize how heavy Gold is. This should give you some estimates. Now compare this to the size of the Tsunami:


It's easily thousands of tons.



> Sasuke is not being smashed with the entire mass of that gold either.


If Sasuke was being smashed by all of it that would be tens of thousands of tons. Here he is just going to be buried by thousands of tons. But considering he can't  survive even 100 tons falling on him, he's done for.



> What do you mean?


I mean that if most fights in the manga don't happen where both fighters don't become aware of each other until 5m; it's unlikely that Sasuke vs Yondaime-Kazekage would ever happen that way. 



> A fair fight in the Naruto manga starts at less than five meters, or do you believe that Kishimoto intended for the tournaments in the Narutoverse to be unfair?


Okay first off I don't think Kishimoto consider whether it was fair or not, he was just writing compelling fiction. But even if we work under the assumption that he did, the Chunin exams are not how your portraying them to be.

There was the FOD portion which indeed pitted people at many ranges and w/ or w/o LOS. So if the CE, exams are suppose to be fair to all Ninja and all styles, than FOD portion would also be considered fair.

Secondly while the matches may have begun at 5m in the CE, the combatants also knew they were going into a fight long before they actually did battle and even knew who their enemy was before they bell was rung. So if CE is suppose to be fair all of this should be accounted for. Which means Yondaime-Kazekage would have tons of prep before hand to generate Gold dust that he carries with him into the ring, just like Gaara created his gourd sand and pre applied his sand armor. So going by CE standards he'd still have his gold dust out before Sauske could even start attacking him. 




> It's common sense. Tournaments are obviously not set up in a way to give one party the advantage. That would defeat the purpose.


The CE exams was not a conventional tournament. It wasn't about winning or loosing it was about showing certain qualities to the judges. So fairness in terms of who won the matches really did not matter, as that was not the purpose of the exams.

FYI; the fairest thing is to consider how they'd perform at all ranges. Yondaime-Kazekage decsively wins at Mid/Long or Short w/ LOS Blocked. Sasuke only has a chance to win at short w/ a clear line of sight. Therefore more often than not Yondaime-Kazekage is winning. 



> Sasuke doesn't need to be 50m+ away to avoid her stock Suiton. It's predictable and he has good reflexes, so he'll manage just fine.


IT COVERED THE DISTANCE OF CHO JINTON IN AN INSTANT. It's ridiculously fast, has massive AOE, and can twist and turn making it unpredictable. What more Mei was using Suitons in response to Madara's speed and Jutsu casting, whose way faster than Hebi-Sasuke. What your saying makes zero sense.



> Completely different circumstances.


How is it a different circumstance. Were talking a short range battle and that was a short range battle. And Mei was able to utilize her Youton fast enough where Sasuke was too busy being pressured to blitz Mei.



> What are the feats of the statue's fire or wind streams? Matching Hiruzen?


Being Buddha God level.



> That's not even remotely close.


Yes it is. Measure it out yourself if you want



> Your original point was that Sasuke needed Susano'o to survive three seconds against Mei's acid.
> 
> That's only true if Chojiro hits him into an enclosed room, and he's in tremendous pain while Mei sets up her acid.


He need Susano'o to survive Mei's Youton Barrage which was before Chojiro hit him.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> But considering he can't  survive even 100 tons falling on him, he's done for.



He survived at the epicenter of an explosion that _dwarfed_ Deidara's rather _large _dragon, so he's hella durable. 

I don't know where you're getting all this from.



> I mean that if most fights in the manga don't happen where both fighters don't become aware of each other until 5m; it's unlikely that Sasuke vs Yondaime-Kazekage would ever happen that way.



..and as I already said, many fights that take place in the manga aren't under fair circumstances.



> There was the FOD portion which indeed pitted people at many ranges and w/ or w/o LOS. So if the CE, exams are suppose to be fair to all Ninja and all styles, than FOD portion would also be considered fair.



The goal in the forest of death was to secure a scroll.

The goal for the preliminaries of the Chunin Exams are exactly those of the Battledome: either kill, knock out, or incapacitate your opponent. Therefore, I think we should use the structure of that tournament to determine what a "fair" fight is here.



> Which means Yondaime-Kazekage would have tons of prep before hand to generate Gold dust that he carries with him into the ring, just like Gaara created his gourd sand and pre applied his sand armor. So going by CE standards he'd still have his gold dust out before Sauske could even start attacking him.



Not really. Gaara's gourd sand is his standard equipment (like Kankuro's puppet or Temari's fan), and he didn't create his armor of sand before the fight started since he only uses it when he's in a problematic situation. 

If Yondaime Kazekage had a gourd of dust he carried around (that remained inside the gourd until the fight started), then that would be different. What you're saying is more akin to Naruto going into a fight with multiple Kage Bunshin already created, or Shino having his bugs ready to destroy the sound guy the moment the fight begins.

We didn't see any of that.



> The CE exams was not a conventional tournament. It wasn't about winning or loosing it was about showing certain qualities to the judges. So fairness in terms of who won the matches really did not matter, as that was not the purpose of the exams.



Actually, the preliminaries were just about winning or losing. I'm not talking about the entire tournament, only the section of it that can be applied to the Battledome.



> FYI; the fairest thing is to consider how they'd perform at all ranges. Yondaime-Kazekage decsively wins at Mid/Long or Short w/ LOS Blocked. Sasuke only has a chance to win at short w/ a clear line of sight. Therefore more often than not Yondaime-Kazekage is winning.



Yondaime Kazekage only has a _chance_ if the distance is increased massively for no reason other than to support him. That isn't "fair."

If he prefers to fight at range, then he should be able to get there from a neutral starting distance.



> IT COVERED THE DISTANCE OF CHO JINTON IN AN INSTANT.



Bro, Rasenshuriken traversed an entire mountain range in one second, and Fatigued Deva Path (who doesn't possess the Sharingan) noticed it when it was about 3ft away, and he _still_ evaded.

Unless you think tired Deva's Paths's speed is like _tiers_ above Sharingan Sasuke, he will dodge this dragon with no dif.



> Being Buddha God level.



What are the feats of its elemental blasts?



> He need Susano'o to survive Mei's Youton Barrage which was before Chojiro hit him.



No. He can casually _evade_ that without Susano'o.

The only reason he used Susano'o there is because he can, just like all Uchiha. Does Madara standing still and letting Tsunade punch his Susano'o mean Madara cannot evade Tsunade?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He survived at the epicenter of an explosion that _dwarfed_ Deidara's rather _large _dragon, so he's hella durable.


You like to use that feat to explain away everything. But explosive force is not the same as being crushed by thousands of tons. 



> and as I already said, many fights that take place in the manga aren't under fair circumstances.


There is no fair circumstances. Since the Naruto world Shinobi have such vary skill-sets, 9 out of 10 times one fighter will be more advantaged than the other, by location and distances. That's why all conditions should be considered not, just one set.



> The goal in the forest of death was to secure a scroll.
> 
> The goal for the preliminaries of the Chunin Exams are exactly those of the Battledome: either kill, knock out, or incapacitate your opponent. Therefore, I think we should use the structure of that tournament to determine what a "fair" fight is here.


Grabbing the scroll also required defeating (or killing your enemy). 



> Not really. Gaara's gourd sand is his standard equipment (like Kankuro's puppet or Temari's fan),


Gaara's Gourd Sand is standard equipment, but if he's allowed to bring that to the match, than nothing is stopping Yondaime-Kazekage from making himself a giant gourd of Gold-Dust and bringing that into the match. 



> and he didn't create his armor of sand before the fight started since he only uses it when he's in a problematic situation.


He had the Sand armor on before the Lee battle began



> f Yondaime Kazekage had a gourd of dust he carried around (that remained inside the gourd until the fight started), then that would be different. What you're saying is more akin to Naruto going into a fight with multiple Kage Bunshin already created, or Shino having his bugs ready to destroy the sound guy the moment the fight begins.


No it's Yondaime-Kazekage preparing for the event. If he has prep time why would he not already have some Gold Dust on hand.



> Actually, the preliminaries were just about winning or losing. I'm not talking about the entire tournament, only the section of it that can be applied to the Battledome.


Where does it say the prelims are just about winning? 

But bottom line is how can you tell me a Taijutsu specialist like Lee isn't advantage by the CE's set up, while a Long-Range fighter like Temari isn't disadvantage. Temari having to start a match with Lee at 3m clearly is not fair. 



> Yondaime Kazekage only has a chance if the distance is increased massively for no reason other than to support him. That isn't "fair."
> 
> If he prefers to fight at range, then he should be able to get there from a neutral starting distance.


The CE starting distance isn't neutral it favors CQC fighters. You know this. 

The Kazekage does not need a massive distance. He just would have a chance to loose at short w/ clear LOS. In every other scenario he wins, that's why your so desperate to name the "fair" scenario as CE's point blank range set up. 

What i'm doing which is considering all ranges and locations is vastly more "fair" and realistic to how a fight would actually go down.



> Bro, Rasenshuriken traversed an entire mountain range in one second, and Fatigued Deva Path (who doesn't possess the Sharingan) noticed it when it was about 3ft away, and he still evaded.


When did Rasenshuriken transverse a mountain range in a second? And suddenly Sasuke's flight speed matches Deva-Realm's foot speed?  On-top of that Deva evaded FRS by a hair's breath, if that had been the size of Mei's water dragon he would have been hit. Also Deva had to evade FRS by jumping into the air, if that had been Mei's water dragon he would have also been hit because it could have bent upwards and hit him mid air.



> Unless you think tired Deva's Paths's speed is like tiers above Sharingan Sasuke, he will dodge this dragon with no dif.


Deva Path's Foot speed is tiers above Hebi-Sasuke's flight speed.



> What are the feats of its elemental blasts?


Being Buddha level, and being a threat to the entire alliance who was enhanced with Kyuubi Chakra aura's, that tanked Tenpen Chi.



> No. He can casually evade that without Susano'o.


_large _
_large _

The first time was a lesser blast



> he only reason he used Susano'o there is because he can, just like all Uchiha. Does Madara standing still and letting Tsunade punch his Susano'o mean Madara cannot evade Tsunade?


Madara using Susano'o is something casual. Sasuke using Susano'o does heavy damage to his lifepsan and heavily fatigues him. There is no reason why he'd opt for Susano'o if he didn't have to.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You like to use that feat to explain away everything. But explosive force is not the same as being crushed by thousands of tons.



I'm wondering how you _know_ Sasuke that is not durable enough to survive being buried.. 



> There is no fair circumstances. Since the Naruto world Shinobi have such vary skill-sets, 9 out of 10 times one fighter will be more advantaged than the other, by location and distances. That's why all conditions should be considered not, just one set.



Can you give me an example?

Because that Temari v. Lee one didn't really work. Yes, Lee is in range to start his taijutsu shenanigans, but Temari is also close enough to use her wind blasts at nearly point blank range, making them incredibly difficult to avoid.

I think that there are conditions that could be considered "fairest," and those are an open field and conversation distance, because of how the prelims were set up.



> Grabbing the scroll also required defeating (or killing your enemy).



You could just steal it...



> Gaara's Gourd Sand is standard equipment, but if he's allowed to bring that to the match, than nothing is stopping Yondaime-Kazekage from making himself a giant gourd of Gold-Dust and bringing that into the match.



He was never shown with a gourd in the manga, while Gaara always carries his around regardless of preparation time. 

The fighters didn't have any prep time once they found out whom they were fighting.



> He had the Sand armor on before the Lee battle began



Where did it say that?



> Where does it say the prelims are just about winning?



When Hayate explained the rules, he claimed the goal was to kill, incapacitate, or force your opponent to surrender. 



> The Kazekage does not need a massive distance. He just would have a chance to loose at short w/ clear LOS. In every other scenario he wins, that's why your so desperate to name the "fair" scenario as CE's point blank range set up.



The only scenario he could possibly win is at medium range with full knowledge so that he immediately opts for a giant Tsunami, and that's only if it can crush Sasuke, which is debatable. 

At short, he get's speed blitzed, and at long, Sasuke should have _plenty_ of time to see it coming and fly above it.



> When did Rasenshuriken transverse a mountain range in a second? And suddenly Sasuke's flight speed matches Deva-Realm's foot speed?  On-top of that Deva evaded FRS by a hair's breath, if that had been the size of Mei's water dragon he would have been hit. Also Deva had to evade FRS by jumping into the air, if that had been Mei's water dragon he would have also been hit because it could have bent upwards and hit him mid air.



It passed the entire Chibaku Tensei crater and only one second of Deva's cool down had gone by (he was counting out loud).

Sasuke doesn't need to fly as fast as Tendo because Water Dragon Jutsu doesn't travel as fast as Rasenshuriken, and Sasuke has _*MUCH*_ more time to react to it that Deva Path did.



> Being Buddha level, and being a threat to the entire alliance who was enhanced with Kyuubi Chakra aura's, that tanked Tenpen Chi.



Naruto was actively surging his chakra to protect the alliance back then, which is why he was so tired. 

Naruto was basically dead at this point, so that comparison doesn't work.

_large _
_large _



> The first time was a lesser blast



...that would move at the same speed. Even Karin dodged it.



> Madara using Susano'o is something casual. Sasuke using Susano'o does heavy damage to his lifepsan and heavily fatigues him. There is no reason why he'd opt for Susano'o if he didn't have to.



Please. Sasuke used Susano'o to block Danzo's fist. He spams it unnecessarily, which is why he went blind so quickly.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm wondering how you _know_ Sasuke that is not durable enough to survive being buried..


Usually we assume a character can't tank something far beyond what they've shown to tank unless given some sort of reason to believe otherwise. What is the possible reason that Sasuke's body could withstand the weight of thousands of tons of gold. Is his body strength and durability greater than Shukaku who was weighted down and defeated by the Kazekage's Gold Dust. Does he have any feats of surviving anywhere near that level weight dropped on him? Does he have some technique that would allow him to not just tank, but move under that weight? 

This is like me saying how do you know Yondaime-Kazekage is not durable enough to survive Kirin.



> Can you give me an example?
> 
> Because that Temari v. Lee one didn't really work. Yes, Lee is in range to start his taijutsu shenanigans, but Temari is also close enough to use her wind blasts at nearly point blank range, making them incredibly difficult to avoid.


Temari is a Long-Range fighter, so saying she is advantaged by a short range starting distance makes no sense. 



> think that there are conditions that could be considered "fairest," and those are an open field and conversation distance, because of how the prelims were set up.


And once again I ask where was it stated that the prelims were set up to be fair to every style of fighter. 



> You could just steal it...


Which requires defeating the enemy or out playing the enemy at the very least. Ether way the FOD was clearly set up with the idea in mind that many teams would have to fight each other. So if they were as concerned with fairness as your making it out to be, than they would have had to consider the conditions of FOD to be fair when it comes to battle as well. 



> He was never shown with a gourd in the manga, while Gaara always carries his around regardless of preparation time.


Please shown me the manga page where Yondaime-Kazeage competed in the Chuunin Exams or took part in any kind of fight that was set up like the Chuunin exams. If you can't, than I do not know how you can possibly know how the Yondaime-Kazekage would prepare himself for an event like that.



> he fighters didn't have any prep time once they found out whom they were fighting.


Gaara vs Lee is announced here:
this

There is 5 pages in total before the fight even begins. Tons of talking and other bullshit. Gaara is even allowed to uncork his sand guard and utilize Shunshin before the match starts. Yondaime-Kazekage would have more than enough time to pull out some Gold-Dust before the fight started if he choose to do so.



> Where did it say that?


It doesn't have to say that. We never saw him apply Sand Armor during his battle with Lee and nether does anyone else as they are all shocked when the sand crumbles from Gaara's face, yet when Lee hits him he already has Sand armor.



> When Hayate explained the rules, he claimed the goal was to kill, incapacitate, or force your opponent to surrender.


That's the goal for winning the match. It doesn't say that they are judging who becomes a Chuunin based on who wins those matches; no does it say someone has to win those matches to become a Chuunin.



> The only scenario he could possibly win is at medium range with full knowledge so that he immediately opts for a giant Tsunami, and that's only if it can crush Sasuke, which is debatable.


He wouldn't win at long-range, when the Gold Dust Tsunami easily covers that distance.



> At short, he get's speed blitzed, and at long, Sasuke should have plenty of time to see it coming and fly above it.


Again where are these amazing flight speed feats, and how long is long range? If it's like 50M than maybe, however at 50m Sasuke's got nothing to hit the Kazekage and has to fight his way through the Kazekage's Gold Dust to close distance while at the same time flying above the gold dust on the ground. Considering Hebi-Sasuke's flight speed in no universe has the speed feats of Gaara's Gourd Sand, which the Kazekage's Gold Dust was keeping pace with, Hebi Sasuke gets WTFPWN'd by the Gold Dust while trying to close the distance. 

At short range, the Kazekage would still probably pull out the Gold dust fast enough to end Sasuke, unless were talking 2 to 3m w/ clear LOS, and Sasuke attacking with Chidori Spear the moment the battle begins. And even than were evaluating the amount of time it takes to summon the gold dust off of the amount of time it took the Kazekage to generate a massive Gold Dust Tsunami, likely the Kazekage can pull out enough sand to defend the Chidori spear faster than it takes him to pull out Gold Dust Tsunami levels; and he'd still end up winning.



> It passed the entire Chibaku Tensei crater and only one second of Deva's cool down had gone by (he was counting out loud).


Oh come on this is laughable dude.

Rasenshuriken was this close to Deva, by the time he started the count:
this

I.E. point blank range. Even than Deva counts down 2 seconds having passed by the time he dodges Rasenshuriken:
this

So it took 2 seconds for Rasenshuriken to cross like 10ft. Not 1 second to cross a mountain range



> Sasuke doesn't need to fly as fast as Tendo because Water Dragon Jutsu doesn't travel as fast as Rasenshuriken, .


Your right Water-Dragon is much faster than Rasenshuriken. 

Water Dragon crossed the distance of Cho Jinton in a single panel. For reference the distance of Cho Jinton was the distance between the Gokage and Madara, I.E. this ridiculous distance:
this

Where the Gokage are specs and event he Susano'o seem small from Madara's vantage point.



> and Sasuke has MUCH more time to react to it that Deva Path did


The fact of the matter is the Water Dragon has vastly superior feats of moment speed in the air than Sasuke's flight. So even if Sasuke because he's a massive distance away has enough time to predict and evade  the initial trajectory of the water dragon, Mei would just have the water dragon chases after him, and now that it's much closer to him he'd be unable to evade.



> Naruto was actively surging his chakra to protect the alliance back then, which is why he was so tired.
> 
> Naruto was basically dead at this point, so that comparison doesn't work.


Actually it works fine because i'm not saying these elemental blasts are as strong as Tenpen Chi. I'm saying that the chakra shrouds offer enhanced durability, yet the alliance still was worried about the elemental jutsu.

It doesn't matter anyway, because Hebi-Sasuke was damaged by a casual Grand-Firball from Itachi. Hiruzen's Katon even w/o Fuuton enhancing it is vastly superior to Grand-Fireball. Than with Fuuton enhancing it it's even more so. Sasuke will get very badly burned if he takes that head on.



> that would move at the same speed.


The first attack did not cover the as much area. Sasuke evaded the first attack by a hairs breath. So him not being able to evade a large variant of this attack is completely consistent with his previous evasion.

Than of course there is the issue of casting speed, where Mei can cast jutsu at different speeds.



> Even Karin dodged it.


First off as we later see in the war-arc Karin's speed and reactions are pretty good. 
Secondly Karin was not the target and therefore was near the outer edge of the blast, so all she had to cover much less distance than Sasuke to escape, and even that she barely managed by the skin of her teeth.



> Please. Sasuke used Susano'o to block Danzo's fist. He spams it unnecessarily, which is why he went blind so quickly.


The guy was bloodlust against Danzo and wanted to murder him the moment he saw him. Citing that instance is disingenuous and you know it. All other times he in the Kages arc he only used Susano'o when he needed it to defend against an attack he otherwise could not or when he was trying to attack the enemy with it. Even in the Kabuto fight where he has EMS and thus Susano'o is much less taxing he does not needlessly use it when it does not need it to defend of attack. 

It's not an attack that Sasuke would use just because. In-fact even the links you posted to Sasuke talking about the strain and toll it takes on him, run contrary to the point your trying to make. And happened right after the scene where he uses it to defend Mei's Youton. So why in the world would Kishi want readers to assume Sasuke needlessly used Susano'o, and than in the same chapter have Sasuke talk about the strain of using it.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke's body was durable enough not to be blow to pieces by an enormous explosion, so he may be too durable to be crushed by the dust wave.


He was durable enough to survive the explosion, but by the same tolkein he was damaged by a casual Grand-Fireball and felt the need to block thrown Shuriken/Kunai. That's why different types of damage matter. Yes he can withstand some explosive force with his CS2 wing, but that doesn't mean his entire body can withstand being crushed by thousands of tons of gold. Just like that didn't mean shuriken and grand-fireballs would be meaningless.

Also tanking aside, i've yet to hear anyway Sasuke would be able to even move when covered by 1,000 tons. Where is his strength feats that suggest he could.




> Can Temari not use her wind techniques close up?


Being able to and being disadvantaged are two different things. I don't think I should have to explain the difference.



> Where was it stated that the prelims weren't set up to be fair?


Rocky this is an on going issue I have with discussing things with you. Where you set up something as a fact w/o proof, and than proceed to request that I prove it false. It's not an effective way to hold a discussion. If your parading around the Chuunin Exams as the gold standard of fairness, it's not my job to prove that false, it's you job to prove that is indeed the case



> he prelims are a tournament, so unless you're taking the stance that Kishimoto didn't want this tournament to be fair, then....


I'm taking the stance that Kishimoto did not care



> Nope, because in the Battledome, the win condition isn't "secure a scroll."


In the BD the win condition can be anything. Just like in the FOD you can win by stealing the scroll or killing the enemies, and taking the scroll. So I repeat if the Chunin exams are the gold standard of fairness than the FOD conditions for battle must have also been considered fair.



> Gaara's gourd sand wasn't prepared for the Chunin Exams.
> 
> Actually, is there an example of any Shinobi preparing specifically for the Chunin Exams prelims?


Kabuto prepared Ninja cards on everyone before the exam. And ultimately there are tons of characters we don't know if they prepared something for the exam specifically or not, as we never saw them fight before or after. Putting that aside... this still has no baring on how a Kage would act went knowing he's going to fight another Kage-Class Individual; it's a totally different game than throwing a few Genin into the ring. I can certainly show examples of Jonin and Kages that prepped when they knew they were specifically going to face other Ninja



> No sand was utilized or summoned before the match began, and he used shunshin to get into the ring, not against Lee.


The Shunshin was sand based, so yes the sand was summoned. He placed sand armor on himself so that more sand that was summoned. The sand in the gourd is also sand that was summoned. 



> He doesn't use his Sand Armor unless he's in trouble, and he wasn't trouble before the match began


So please show me when he applied the Sand Armor in the match



> They weren't evaluating the kids during the prelims. You had to pass the prelims to be taken into consideration for Chunin, otherwise there would be no difference between the finals & prelims and no need for a preliminary round.


Once again show me the quote where it says that.



> Dodge.


When has Hebi-Sasuke dodged an AOE even remotely comparable to Gold Dust Tsunami



> All he would need is a simple distraction to get close. The giant 100m lobng Manda would probably work.


The moment Manda comes out Yondaime Kazekage Gold Dust Tsunami's both of them to death. Manda is like a kitten next to defeating the Shukaku (in the desert no less).



> Sasuke speed blitzes the Kazekage at short range.
> 
> He doesn't get any dust out.


Yondaime Kazekage speed blitz Sasuke at short range

He doesn't get any Raitons out

See how that works 

Your offering nothing to back up your assertions



> hen why don't you explain to me why there's a giant explosion on the other side of the mountain range-sized crater with a caption saying "4 seconds until the next jutsu."


That's just it, it was the explosion of the FRS expanding across that distance. It was not the FRS crossing that distance.

On-top of that I also feel Kishi fucked up the time-line there (no surprise he always does), as he very clearly has FRS cross less distance in 2 seconds than it does in 1 second. 



> He could fire chidori senbon or fire dragins at Mei to force defense and prevent her from controlling the Water Dragon for any amount of time.


So now Sasuke has Katons and Raitons that can cross 50m, and he can fire them accurately while at the same time evading the water dragon. That's absolutely absurd. 

Not that it matters as the water dragon would eat that shit like nothing.



> Sasuke tanked that with a wing in CS1. CS2 combined with a snake meat-shield is not the same thing.


He survived it but was visibly injured. Now let's take a Katon vastly superior to that and add Fuuton enhancing it. Hell Hiruzen could create 2 Katons and 2 Fuutons if he wanted. He's not surviving that.



> Make it fresh Sasuke and he still evades.
> 
> Kind of like how a fresh Tendo would be able to avoid Naruto's Rasengan, thrown from dozens of meters away, without having to rely on Shinra Tensei.


So were back to Sasuke didn't have enough energy to evade, but he had enough energy to use Susano'o. Sorry not buying it.

I'd also suggest you read this post by Godaime Tsunade explaining Mei's speed feats, as it might better help you understand why Sasuke can't simply evade Mei's Jutsu and blitz her:




> She got blitzed by stabbed Danzo.


Danzo was as fast as MS-Sasuke



> To illustrate that he overuses it, which I believe Obito even said happened when he went blind.


That was in the Danzo fight bud.

Can you show me any example where he needlessly uses Susano'o to defend other than when bloodlusted to murder the man he felt was responsible for his brothers death. And actually in the danzo instance it was more to crush Danzo with an attack rather than defend Danzo's punch, anyway.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes he can withstand some explosive force with his CS2 wing, but that doesn't mean his entire body can withstand being crushed by thousands of tons of gold. Just like that didn't mean shuriken and grand-fireballs would be meaningless.



He was at the epicenter, so if he can survive that explosion point blank, I don't know for certain that he'd be crushed by the Gold.



> Also tanking aside, i've yet to hear anyway Sasuke would be able to even move when covered by 1,000 tons. Where is his strength feats that suggest he could.



Depends on the strength of Manda.



> Being able to and being disadvantaged are two different things. I don't think I should have to explain the difference.



Temari is not necessarily disadvantaged because her wind attacks are harder to avoid up close, or do you disagree with that...



> If your parading around the Chuunin Exams as the gold standard of fairness, it's not my job to prove that false, it's you job to prove that is indeed the case.



Common sense dictates that tournaments are constructed to be fair fights. There would be no point to holding them otherwise. 

You are trying to claim that this tournament was _unfair_, so I want proof of that.



> I'm taking the stance that Kishimoto did not care



Baseless. 



> In the BD the win condition can be anything.



The win condition for a versus thread is not steal a scroll unless a thread specifies that as the objective...

If it did, then you'd have a point.



> I can certainly show examples of Jonin and Kages that prepped when they knew they were specifically going to face other Ninja



I'm talking about a situation where they weren't allowed to begin fighting (an opponent they found out they were facing a minute prior) until the referee guy said so.



> The Shunshin was sand based, so yes the sand was summoned. He placed sand armor on himself so that more sand that was summoned. The sand in the gourd is also sand that was summoned.



His gourd sand did not leave the gourd until he started the fight.



> So please show me when he applied the Sand Armor in the match.



Show me where it was applied outside of the match. 

See how that works.

It looks like his skin, so it could have been applied at any time. However, since he only uses it in a pinch, then there is no reason for him to have applied it before he got in a pinch.

You make no sense. 



> Once again show me the quote where it says that.



_http://www.mangapanda.com/93-70-17/naruto/chapter-65.html_

The preliminaries weren't part of the three Chunin Exam tests.



> When has Hebi-Sasuke dodged an AOE even remotely comparable to Gold Dust Tsunami



He hasn't faced AoE like that, from a far distance away.



> The moment Manda comes out Yondaime Kazekage Gold Dust Tsunami's both of them to death. Manda is like a kitten next to defeating the Shukaku (in the desert no less).



Gamabunta kept of with Shukaku, and Manda > Gamabunta.



> Your offering nothing to back up your assertions



Sasuke has flicker speed feats of blitzing Base Naruto (3.5) and nearly Deidara (4.5)

I'm assuming the 4th Kazekage is comparable to Gaara (3). Even if he was half a tier faster (which is unsubstantiated, really), he'd still be blitzed.



> On-top of that I also feel Kishi fucked up the time-line there (no surprise he always does), as he very clearly has FRS cross less distance in 2 seconds than it does in 1 second.


\

No clue what your talking about. 

Naruto threw a shadow shuriken and Tendo repelled it, an from that point there was 5 seconds until the next Shinra Tensei.

Then the real FRS came and Tendo jumped it. Then it flew all the way to the end of the mountain range and blew up, and Tendo said "4 seconds left."



> So now Sasuke has Katons and Raitons that can cross 50m, and he can fire them accurately while at the same time evading the water dragon. That's absolutely absurd.



His Fire Dragons traveled into the atmosphere, so it isn't absurd. He could also probably intercept the Dragon with a Curse Seal powered Fire Ball Jutsu.



> He survived it but was visibly injured. Now let's take a Katon vastly superior to that and add Fuuton enhancing it. Hell Hiruzen could create 2 Katons and 2 Fuutons if he wanted. He's not surviving that.



On what basis is Old Hiruzen's Katon vastly hotter than Itachi's?



> So were back to Sasuke didn't have enough energy to evade, but he had enough energy to use Susano'o. Sorry not buying it.



Don't care. It's the same situation that Pain was in, so it happens.



> Danzo was as fast as MS-Sasuke



Stabbed Danzo was not as fast as MS Sasuke, but if Sasuke can blitz Karin, that demonstrates my point all the same.



> That was in the Danzo fight bud.



His overuse of the MS was accumulating since the B fight. 



> Can you show me any example where he needlessly uses Susano'o to defend other than when bloodlusted to murder the man he felt was responsible for his brothers death.



You cannot prove that's why he used Susano'o, though.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 1, 2014)

MS Sasuke was Bloodlusted the entire kage summit arc, he just showed it at full effect against Danzo.


----------



## IchLiebe (Sep 1, 2014)

THIS IS ITACHI FOLKS.

Sasuke's not even involved.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 1, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke would rape Mei and Gaara, beat Tsunade decisively, and beat Oonoki with moderate to high difficulty depending on the old man's knowledge and ability to fight Genjutsu.

The 4th Kazekage would get curbed by any post-timeskip iteration of Sasuke.

Itachi takes all of the above to the rape closet.

Lol, Turrin.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 1, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is not beating Gaara or Onoki. They destroy with moderate difficulty at best lol


----------



## Kazekage94 (Sep 1, 2014)

Of course that's Nikus belief. 

But any other person knows Gaara is clearly above Hebi Sasuke maybe Tsunade but more by portrayal


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 1, 2014)

I think I should correct myself...Gaara or Onoki fodder stomps hebi sasuke at this point

Hebi Sasuke is so overrated it's disgusting. Itachi could have destroyed sasuke in minutes if he wanted to


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

Gaara got owned by Deidara, someone Hebi Sasuke beat, and would have lost to TrollKage if not for help from both Troll Kage, Onoki, and his dad's Gold, as well as being in a dessert. Hebi Sasuke beats Trollkage as he can see his Genjutsu and can destroy it with Kirin, as well as has the snake summons to pressure TrollKage, and Chidori Variants.

Sasuke is not stronger than Onoki though, not until the Danzou fight atleast.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 1, 2014)

Deidara was able to get an advantage on Gaara that Gaara couldn't ignore. Gaara could've stomped Deidara(who was about out of clay) but decided to protect the village as a whole and not himself.

Hebi Sasuke can't see through the genjutsu and nothing suggest he can. Not even sensors could sense in it. And can't stop joki boi.

Onoki stomps EMS Sasuke before the kages were revived. One jinton is all it takes. Oonoki is on a whole different level than these petty shinobis.

So I guess everyone agrees that Itachi gets his dick stomped in so they put Sasuke in his place?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

You're going againts manga, where Itachi did take out both Sasuke and Oro, so I guess you're opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone but yourself, Ichl

Deidara didn't use C4 on Gaara as he didn't want to kill him, thats a disadvantage. But of course you'll ignore that. Sasori even stated Deidara went with little clay. And sure, Gaara had to protect his village, but at the same time, having the village provided him with countless amount of sand he used throughout the whole fight.

Not only that, but Deidara outsmarted Gaara.

As for Sasuke and TrollKage, I bet no one expected the Sharingan to be able to see the invicible C4 bombs, but it did. I bet you didn't expect it to be able to see the landmines as chakra colors, but it did. This is a genjutsu and the sharingan sees through Genjutsu. It doesn't take much brains to figure out the rest.

Sasuke is smarter, faster than the Troll Kage, has better summons, has Genjutsu of his own, and Kirin is more destructive than Jokey boy. He also has Curse seal which provides him with greater strength than Troll kage, wings to fly and have better range, and he also can use it for defense. You're so biased againts Uchihas it's ridiculous. Why don't you say Sasuke casts his Genjutsu and rapes the Troll Kage instead? The Troll Kage doesn't even have a counter for Chidori Eisou.


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## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He was at the epicenter, so if he can survive that explosion point blank, I don't know for certain that he'd be crushed by the Gold.


Again what relevance does that type of feat hold to tanking being crushed?



> Depends on the strength of Manda.


Is Manda stronger than Shukaku?



> Temari is not necessarily disadvantaged because her wind attacks are harder to avoid up close, or do you disagree with that...


I do disagree with that. Her wind attacks emanate from her fan and than become larger. So they are actually more difficult to avoid from a distance. 



> Common sense dictates that tournaments are constructed to be fair fights. There would be no point to holding them otherwise.
> 
> You are trying to claim that this tournament was unfair, so I want proof of that.


Actually common sense dictates than when you have so many different styles of combat not all of them are going to be best suited for point blank range. Tournament being fair depends on the rules hence why I keep asking you where it says the tournament is designed to be fair to all fighters. This is especially true in a tournament that isn't designed to measure necessary who wins, but rather whether they have a skill set that qualifies them for the rank of Chunin.

And once again, I don't appreciate this style of conversation where you throw out an assertion parading it as fact and than it's my job to prove it wrong; no it's your job Rocky to provide evidence for why your saying this shit is fact in the first place.



> Baseless.


It's not baseless because never once does Kishimoto making a point of brining up how fair the Chunin Exams are. What's more Kishi does make a point of separating Shinobi into different areas of expertise. How can Kishi possibly say these ninja specialize in Long-Range, these ninja specialize in Mid-Range, and  these ninja special in Short-Range, going so far as to split them into divisions based on that in the war. Than consider it fair, that a Long-Range fighter is forced to compete with a Short-Range fighter at 3m. It does not make any sense.

Edit: For example Base-Lee could beat Deidara, if the match was held like the Chunin exams. Given that according to you Kishi considers Base-Lee > Deidara, because Base-Lee would be beating Deidara under the fairest conditions for both parties. 



> he win condition for a versus thread is not steal a scroll unless a thread specifies that as the objective...
> 
> If it did, then you'd have a point.


I could make a thread where the objective is to steal a scroll in the NBD. So just like in the FOD some characters fought over the scrolls and some attempt to steal them; there are different types of threads in the NBD. 



> I'm talking about a situation where they weren't allowed to begin fighting (an opponent they found out they were facing a minute prior) until the referee guy said so.


And i'm talking about a Ninja that could prep his weapon within that few minute period.



> His gourd sand did not leave the gourd until he started the fight.


Okay wonderful. No one is saying Yondaime-Kazekage's Gold Dust gets to attack Sasuke before the match. I'm saying that he has the oppertunity to carry the Gold Dust with him. Though actually some of Gaara's sand did leave the gourd, when it shot the cork at Lee.



> Show me where it was applied outside of the match.
> 
> See how that works.
> 
> It looks like his skin, so it could have been applied at any time. However, since he only uses it in a pinch, then there is no reason for him to have applied it before he got in a pinch.


No I don't see how that works. Because before the match we didn't see what happened, however we did see what happened in the match; and we nor anyone else in the stadium saw him apply the sand. Yet when he did apply it after Lee removed it everyone saw him do it.



> 7th Gate
> 
> The preliminaries weren't part of the three Chunin Exam tests.


That says they weren't part of the Third Test. Rather they were an add onto the Second-Test because too many people passed the FOD portion. That does not mean they weren't still being evaluated or that someone needed to make it the Third Portion to be nominated for Chunin promotion by one of the Jonin. Plus there is this:
7th Gate



> He hasn't faced AoE like that, from a far distance away.


He doesn't have feats of crossing that level of distance from a short distance ether.



> Gamabunta kept of with Shukaku, and Manda > Gamabunta.


Gamabunta = Manda. Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake. Katsuya > Manda > Bunta > Katsuya. Manda can't do anything to Katsuya because of Katsuya's spliting. Bunta's AOE can take care of Katsuya despite it's splitting, while Manda's Dotons can avoid Bunta's AOE, and he can use it to strike him down.

Anyway Bunta very clearly admitted inferiority to Shukaku and that wasn't even in the desert.



> Sasuke has flicker speed feats of blitzing Base Naruto (3.5) and nearly Deidara (4.5)
> 
> I'm assuming the 4th Kazekage is comparable to Gaara (3). Even if he was half a tier faster (which is unsubstantiated, really), he'd still be blitzed.


Kazekage's Gold Dust is faster than those characters considering it kept up with War-Arc Gaara's Gourd Sand.

Pulling out the dust would be thee only issue. But pretty much anything can happen at short. Depending on:


How Quickly Sasuke attacks
What Sasuke Opens Up With 
Whether the Kazekage can pull out smaller amounts of Gold Quicker than the Tsunami

Those three factors will determine if Sasuke can blitz the Kazekage or not. However in general I find it unlikely that Kishi would have a fairly strong Kage get blitzed by someone of Hebi-Sasuke's "level". It's one thing if Minato or even Ei does it.



> No clue what your talking about.
> 
> Naruto threw a shadow shuriken and Tendo repelled it, an from that point there was 5 seconds until the next Shinra Tensei.
> 
> Then the real FRS came and Tendo jumped it. Then it flew all the way to the end of the mountain range and blew up, and Tendo said "4 seconds left."


I literally just showed you the panels, so don't play this game with me.

The second FRS was right in-front of Pain when he started the count down. By the time it crossed that small distance and Pain jumped above it 2 seconds had passed. Now you show me a scene where it cross the entire Chibaku Tensei crater in 1 second. Obviously Kishi ether fucked the time-line or the explosion made it look like it covered more distance than it actually did.



> His Fire Dragons traveled into the atmosphere, .


Fair enough I forgot about them, but that is still 1 Katon and no Raitons.



> so it isn't absurd. He could also probably intercept the Dragon with a Curse Seal powered Fire Ball Jutsu


Okay this is where it gets absurd. Those Fireballs are Fodder to Mei's Water Dragon. A much smaller water dragon from Mei was countering Madara's Katons which are vastly superior to Sasuke's Fire-Balls. 

You can't honestly believe that those Fire balls are stopping this:
7th Gate



> On what basis is Old Hiruzen's Katon vastly hotter than Itachi's?


On the basis that it dwarfs Itachi's Katon and counterbalanced an entity with Hashirama's god chakra.



> Don't care. It's the same situation that Pain was in, so it happens.


So you don't care when the facts disagree, nice way to discuss something. 

And no it's not the same situation Pain was in. Sasuke was not on the ground panting moments before Mei's Youton attack, he was jumping around like gymnast clashing with Mifune and evading her previous Youton attack. Pain did not go on to use an extremely physical taxing Jutsu right after being on the ground panting. Sasuke was not caught off guard by the nature of Mei's attack, as Pain was, when he thought he'd be able to use ST to defend, but Naruto's clones threw him over the distance. 



> Stabbed Danzo was not as fast as MS Sasuke, .


Karin after having her chakra drained from her, probably wasn't as fast as she normally is ether. And Danzo in the same moment evades Sasuke Chidori, so I don't think his speed decreased much at all.



> but if Sasuke can blitz Karin, that demonstrates my point all the same


No it doesn't, because like I said before Karin was not the target of Mei's Youton, and thus had less area to cover to evade it, and even than barely pulled that off; in-fact Godaime Tsunade even speculates that Karin didn't pull that off and instead was blown back by the Jutsu, which also seems plausible.



> His overuse of the MS was accumulating since the B fight.


MS Tech usage in general accumulates. Again I ask for the Fourth time where Sasuke used Susano'o to defend, besides the Danzo fight (though really their he used it to attack), that was needless.



> You cannot prove that's why he used Susano'o, though.


 Here is my reasoning, Sasuke evaded the smaller Youton attack, but when Mei used a larger one he pulled out Susano'o to defend; that speaks towards necessity, not arbitrary usage. All the other times he pulled out Susano'o to defend were also out of necessity. The toll Susano'o takes on the user also makes it nonsensical to arbitrary utilize it when one could otherwise evade the attack. Mei also has other feats of extremely quick Jutsu activation that supports why Sasuke would need Susano'o to defend, as outlined in Godaime's Thread that I posted a link to. That's 4 things that point towards Susano'o being a necessity there rather than being arbitrary. You have presented no reasons for arbitrary Susano'o usage.

Can I prove 100% that Sasuke didn't arbitrarily use Susano'o; no I can not. But I should not have to prove something 100% for you to acknowledge that Susano'o being a necessity is vastly more likely given the the above 4 factors than Susano'o usage being arbitrary. Are we having an honest conversation about what is likely or is your sole goal to argue for the sake of arguing?

Otherwise I might as well say Mei Shunshin blitz's Sasuke lopping off his head with a Kunai; prove me wrong. Than you give a well informed argument as to why that's not the case, but since we haven't seen Mei's Shunshin you can't 100% prove it, and I just say fuck you, you can't prove it, so Mei wins.


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## Kazekage94 (Sep 1, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Gaara got owned by Deidara, someone Hebi Sasuke beat, and would have lost to TrollKage if not for help from both Troll Kage, Onoki, and his dad's Gold, as well as being in a dessert. Hebi Sasuke beats Trollkage as he can see his Genjutsu and can destroy it with Kirin, as well as has the snake summons to pressure TrollKage, and Chidori Variants.
> 
> Sasuke is not stronger than Onoki though, not until the Danzou fight atleast.



Dude honestly, you keep reverting back to part 2 welcome to over 400 chapters later, in which Gaara progressed, with astounding feats. Deidara aimed to the village, and Gaara had to protect it.
Gaara didn't even use his beast.

Part 2 Gaara stomps Hebi Sasuke
Current Gaara stomps as well.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

Dude, I'm just mentioning that to mention how Itachi can handle two Kage levels.

I know Gaara got stronger, so did Sasuke. And EMS Sasuke before even Rikudou powers would wtfpwn Gaara


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## JuicyG (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *Location:* Beach
> *Distance:* 10 meters
> *Mindset:* IC
> *Restrictions:* None
> ...





I don't people got the point when I said OutLaw ended this thread. I will be kind enough to post it again so that everyone can see.

"Naturally the Itachi fanbase still cries blitz in all scenerios. First, I'd just like to point out that barring the godlike creatures that have been battling in the Narutoverse as of late, no top-tier character is getting blitz by another equally tiered character. But that is besides the point, let's see these match ups.

Itachi vs Gaara + Father on a Fucking Beach

This is probably where he dies the hardest. His speed, which can't blitz Gaara anyway, means especially nothing when everywhere he goes, turns, or steps is literally under Gaara's control. Tsukuyomi is not effective at this range, and Gaara has dealt with Amaterasu at even closer ranges than 10 meters. Susano'o you say? Well, what stops Gaara from pulling Itachi right out from under it like he did with Madara? Both scenarios work the same. Gaara knows everything he needs to know about the Sharingan and Itachi will never get close enough in this location to be dangerous.

Itachi vs Gaara alone on not a beach is much more even match.

PS: I really hope you mean Yondaime as in the Fourth Kazekage, and not Minato ... because then this is unjust treatment of one of the series' best characters.

Mei and Trollkage on a Fucking Beach

Once again, I return to very simple fact that from 30 feet or any distance for that matter, Itachi is not blitzing Mei, who fought and survived five Susano'o Madara clones on her own, and neither is he doing that to Trollkage. The issue with this whole scenerio is that Itachi can't come in close, because Mei can literally melt a Susano'o with her acid mist and going out large range leaves him to fight against Joki Boy and Trollkage's Hydrafacation techniques alone. Again, I repeat that they are on a fucking beach and TrollKage's body is made of water.

Not to mention, both characters will immediately look to block his line of sight with their mist techniques.

How exactly does Itachi defeat Trollkage anyway, especially in the full knowledge scenario? He might be able to seal them in the manga knowledge scenario. But in full knowledge, what stops Trollkage from summoning Joki Boy and then turning into a giant wave of water that cannot be sealed, burned, genjutsued or Taijutsu'd.

Fairer fight = Itachi vs either of these people one on one.

Onoki and Mu

Ten meters ... full knowledge. They fly away, Itachi is an ant beneath a magnifying glass to these two. Again, one on one is a different story. He has the potential to defeat either of them. But knowing what they do about the Mangekyo Sharingan, he has no chance, especially against them both.

They start out of range and soon that range gets too big for him to ever get past without the new flying Gundam-Susano'o that he hasn't been issued yet. Jinton from the skies evaporates him.

A vs Sandaime

Once again I'll return to the fact that he is out of range, not blitzing either of these monsters or even killing them. I will admit, with manga knowledge me might seal them both from their shear arrogance and willingness to tank shit. Full knowledge, however. He has no choice but to hole up in Susan'o and wait for it to kill him of chakra exhaustion.

Tsunade and Edo Hiruzen

So Hiruzen, who avoided Ten-Tailed Obito from a similar distance long enough to totally deduce the strengths, weaknesses and properties of the black rods will be blitzed by Itachi here? I find it hard to believe.

Tsunade, who fought five Madara clones alone and survived, is going to be blitzed by Itachi?

Stop, its an insult to high-tier characters.

Again, the manga knowledge scenario gives him the advantage that Tsunade might try to tank his sealing sword, leaving him with just Edo Hiruzen who he should be able to defeat from manga showings.

But in the full knowledge scenario, its not happening. His initial range is too far from any Mangekyo Sharingan techniques to be effective. He is certainly faster than both of them, but might I remind you that Hiruzen+Pole is possibly the most skillful close range fighter in the manga, and that Tsunade is essentially indestructible and also incredibly skilled at close range combat.

*Conclusion*

As a general rule of thumb, in my humble opinion, there are high-Kage-level characters and characters beyond that level. A high-Kage-level character does not take on two other high Kage-level characters and win, not usually. While its certainly possible for Itachi to win any of these scenarios, it is also very implausible. I would say that any character weaker than Nagato does not take on two Kages at a time. "


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## Kazekage94 (Sep 1, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Dude, I'm just mentioning that to mention how Itachi can handle two Kage levels.
> 
> I know Gaara got stronger, so did Sasuke. And EMS Sasuke before even Rikudou powers would wtfpwn Gaara



Yes I know but I'm not talking about EMS Sasuke I was referring to Hebi Sasuke. Dude


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## IchLiebe (Sep 1, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> You're going againts manga, where Itachi did take out both Sasuke and Oro, so I guess you're opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone but yourself, Ichl


WTF are you talking about? I never brought up Sasuke and Orochimaru. I just asked if we moved on from Itachi vs the Kage pairs to Sasuke vs the Kage pairs because Itachi is too weak. And hebi Sasuke and a gimped Orochimaru doesn't compare to anyone of these kage.



> Deidara didn't use C4 on Gaara as he didn't want to kill him, thats a disadvantage.


Because he would fail his mission.





> But of course you'll ignore that. Sasori even stated Deidara went with little clay. And sure, Gaara had to protect his village, but at the same time, having the village provided him with countless amount of sand he used throughout the whole fight.


So he might not have been able to produce the C4. No having the "terrain" helped him, not the village teh villagers did jack shit.


> Not only that, but Deidara outsmarted Gaara.


Why of course, Deidara isn't an idiot.


> As for Sasuke and TrollKage, I bet no one expected the Sharingan to be able to see the invicible C4 bombs, but it did. I bet you didn't expect it to be able to see the landmines as chakra colors, but it did. This is a genjutsu and the sharingan sees through Genjutsu. It doesn't take much brains to figure out the rest.


You mean microscopic c4 bombs? THey weren't invisible. I don't see why it wouldn't the ground doesn't block chakra.

Yet Sharingan can be fooled by genjutsu especially one like the Clam genjutsu that keeps activating. You have to destroy the clam to stop the genjutsu. You can't stop the genjutsu until the clam is destroyed or you will keep falling into it. Danzo was tricked with "visual" genjutsu, nothing suggest that Sasuke can effectively counter a genjutsu that has the properties and mechanics of the clam.





> Sasuke is smarter


Depends on Sasuke's Mindset.


> faster than the Troll Kage,


Yes.





> has better summons


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA So fucking funny Sasuke can't even command Manda on his own will





> has Genjutsu of his own


Which isn't doing anything here





> , and Kirin is more destructive than Jokey boy.


And at any time he fighting the mirages he can just water gun him in the back of the head. And Kirin isn't effective. Can Sasuke even summon the clouds within a reasonable time frame without a forest being lit a blaze by Amaterasu? Trollkages' Jokei boi is more efficient and versatile.





> He also has Curse seal which provides him with greater strength than Troll kage, wings to fly and have better range, and he also can use it for defense. You're so biased againts Uchihas it's ridiculous. Why don't you say Sasuke casts his Genjutsu and rapes the Troll Kage instead? The Troll Kage doesn't even have a counter for Chidori Eisou.


Wings to glide? Sasuke never shown to fly like you describe or ascertain. Strength is useless against th trollkage, although it would take alot to break the clam. Ain't stopping a water gun or jokei boy.

depends on stipulations. Im going by the ones set in this matchup between Itachi and the Kages.

Yall are so far on the Uchiha's dicks they yall can't even seperate the two. This is a fucking ITACHI thread yet the past couple of pages its been Sasuke Sasuke Sasuke. When in fact he isn't much better than Itachi.

Do you really think that the trollkage will lose to a generic 3t Sharingan genjutsu? I don't think so just because of his advanced knowledge of genjutsu.

I make viable strats while yours consist of no more than a blitz of some sort.


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## StickaStick (Sep 1, 2014)

Certain individuals in each of those pairs would give Itachi a mid to high diff. fight, so asking if he can take on a second Kage along with that is asking for too much.

Also, why are people bringing up Hebi Sasuke and a restricted Oro when that situation was more akin to a gauntlet than a 2-on-1 situation, which is the scenario the OP has outlined?


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## Turrin (Sep 1, 2014)

The Format said:


> Also, why are people bringing up Hebi Sasuke and a restricted Oro when that situation was more akin to a gauntlet than a 2-on-1 situation, which is the scenario the OP has outlined?


Grasping at straws to overrate Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 1, 2014)

^Pretty much and they disregard that Orochimaru didn't evade due to his thinking that he won't be killed or effected by such a weapon.


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## Dr. White (Sep 1, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Pretty much and they disregard that Orochimaru didn't evade due to his thinking that he won't be killed or effected by such a weapon.



Doesn't mean jack. Oro didn't even see the totsuka until it burrowed through his chest which is a beast speed feat, and in battle it doesn't matter how you get put down but just as long as you do.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Pretty much and they disregard that Orochimaru didn't evade due to his thinking that he won't be killed or effected by such a weapon.



Nothing suggested Oro could have dodged it. He didn't even see it since there was "!" sign which indicates surprise and was interrupted mid-speech by it. Totsuka wasn't even shown before it hit Oro. Yet for some reason, you and other Itachi haters say it's a slow attack. Only after Totsuka hit him, Oro started to brag since he knew such an attack wouldn't kill him (doesn't mean he ever saw it coming) . I see no other way for Kishi showing it as a fast jutsu, yet you conveniently label it as slow to try and discard it lol


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## IchLiebe (Sep 1, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Nothing suggested Oro could have dodged it. He didn't even see it since there was "!" sign which indicates surprise and was interrupted mid-speech by it. Totsuka wasn't even shown before it hit Oro. Yet for some reason, you and other Itachi haters say it's a slow attack. Only after Totsuka hit him, Oro started to brag since he knew such an attack wouldn't kill him (doesn't mean he ever saw it coming) . I see no other way for Kishi showing it as a fast jutsu, yet you conveniently label it as slow to try and discard it lol



O Rly?

recharge time


Itachi's wouldn't have even been able to seal Orochimaru had he not shown himself

recharge time

recharge time

If Orochimaru had known it was Totsuka he would've never been hit. He even laughs at the injury. And there was 2 pages from the time Orochimaru was shown to when he was impaled...fast not imo.

Because Orochimaru was babbling on and pulling out his sword. Itachi didn't outright blitz him with it, and Itachi clearly knew he couldn't seal the hydra. Sorry but I see nothing fast about it. Its not slow but easily seen by any on the battlefield.

And are you suggesting that Orochimaru wasn't paying Itachi any attention?


Will you not address my other post?

Also different stipulations, Orochimaru didn't have full knowledge that the kages have.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2014)

The Format said:


> Also, why are people bringing up Hebi Sasuke and a restricted Oro when that situation was more akin to a gauntlet than a 2-on-1 situation, which is the scenario the OP has outlined?



I guess you can call it fair because Itachi was dying of a terminal illness and was trying to lose.

Besides, Sasuke already admitted that Sasuke & Orochimaru wouldn't be able to defeat Itachi, and that Sasuke dispatched Yamato & team 7 with no difficulty.



IchLiebe said:


> If Orochimaru had known it was Totsuka he would've never been hit.


.

Orochimaru's reaction came after he was hit. Not before, thus your argument is invalid.


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## StickaStick (Sep 2, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I guess you can call it fair because Itachi was dying of a terminal illness and was trying to lose.


I really don't see how this response has any relevance here considering Itachi is not fighting the pairs gauntlet style, but 2-on-1. Fair has nothing to do with it; either he wins or losses based on the stipulations.

Btw, you do realize Hebi Sasuke (low-Kage tier) pushed an exhausted Itachi into using his trump card and that was even before a restricted Oro lacking knowledge on, among other things, Totsuka came into play? And anyone is supposed to believe he can defeat two Kages _working together at the same time_?



> *Besides, Sasuke already admitted that Sasuke & Orochimaru wouldn't be able to defeat Itachi*, and that Sasuke dispatched Yamato & team 7 with no difficulty.


I doubt this is exactly what was implied within context, but either way I'd like to see a scan as I don't recall.


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## Rocky (Sep 2, 2014)

The Format said:


> Btw, you do realize Hebi Sasuke (low-Kage tier) pushed an exhausted Itachi into using his trump card and that was even before a restricted Oro lacking knowledge on, among other things, Totsuka came into play? And anyone is supposed to believe he can defeat two Kages _working together at the same time_?



I would like to see how you're evaluating this.

Blind & dying Itachi had to obtain victory against Sasuke by way of attrition, as otherwise, Orochimaru wouldn't have emerged. Then he fought Orochimaru's strongest form.

Let me say that again: _Terminally ill_ Itachi had to obtain victory by _outlasting_ Sasuke, and he couldn't even be conservative because his "I'm trying my hardest to take your eyes" ruse wouldn't have worked. Then he had to fight Orochimaru.

So, exactly how are you determining that defeating Mei & Trollkage simultaneously while healthy is _so_ much harder than taking down Sasuke via attrition, and _then_ facing Orochimaru gauntlet-style despite having a fatal disease?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2014)

The Format said:


> I really don't see how this response has any relevance here considering Itachi is not fighting the pairs gauntlet style, but 2-on-1. Fair has nothing to do with it; either he wins or losses based on the stipulations.


What I mean was that Itachi vs Sasuke & Oro is a fair example of 2v1, considering Itachi was @ the brink of death and was trying to lose. 



> Btw, you do realize Hebi Sasuke (low-Kage tier) pushed an exhausted Itachi into using his trump card and that was even before a restricted Oro lacking knowledge on, among other things, Totsuka came into play? And anyone is supposed to believe he can defeat two Kages _working together at the same time_?


Sasuke pushed Itachi into nothing. Itachi was pushing him, I suggest you re-read the fight and the aftermath.




> I doubt this is exactly what was implied within context, but either way I'd like to see a scan as I don't recall.


Straight Biju Mode can tank a Juubidama laser which is greater in power than Shinsusenju.


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## StickaStick (Sep 2, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What I mean was that Itachi vs Sasuke & Oro is a fair example of 2v1, considering Itachi was @ the brink of death and was trying to lose.


No it's not.  If the fight had been 2-on-1 at the outset with a non-restricted Oro Itachi would have lost badly. Like, murderstomp badly. 



> Sasuke pushed Itachi into nothing. Itachi was pushing him, I suggest you re-read the fight and the aftermath.


No need.



> a mini-mountain.


Come on man. I know I don't have to point out the obvious flaw with your assertion here given the context of what Sasuke said and the fact that Sasuke couldn't possibly be aware of what Oro was capable of at full-strength anyhow.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

Oro was shown to be faaaaaar inferior to Itachi many times in the manga.


@ Grimjow, don't forget he was 90% blind in that fight.


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## Turrin (Sep 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I would like to see how you're evaluating this.
> 
> Blind & dying Itachi had to obtain victory against Sasuke by way of attrition, as otherwise, Orochimaru wouldn't have emerged. Then he fought Orochimaru's strongest form.
> 
> ...


The way people evaluate it is simple

Mei > Hebi Sasuke, and Troll > handicapped Orochimaru. Yes Itachi had disadvantages, so maybe  take away those disadvantages and he can beat Mei and Troll gauntlet style at the cost of his life. However that still does not make up for the drastic increase in difficulty when it comes to facing them 1v2. 

And if we want to talk portrayal. Mei took on 5 Madara clones throughout the entire duration of the Kabuto fight. Gaara barely beat Troll with a number advantages, and Gaara as well was good enough to take on 5 Madara clones throughout the duration of the Kabuto fight. At some point these clones also starting using V3 EMS-Susano'o. That's well above anything Hebi-Sasuke ever did, and should be enough where it's obvious even Healthy-Itachi is not taking down ether Kage individually easy.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

Itachi could have killed Sasuke anytime in that fight and gained EMS.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 2, 2014)

I would disagree mostly with most of that fight Sasuke was holding his on quite well. Hell Itachi thought he would stand no chance against the MS but it wasn't until Susanoo came out. True he got him with Amaterasu but he stopped Amaterasu "after" it burnt Sasuke's torso. 


Orochimaru with his manga knowledge would out survive Itachi in a battle.


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## Rocky (Sep 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Mei > Hebi Sasuke, and Troll > handicapped Orochimaru.



Sasuke, who prepared counters for Itachi's weapon skills and has the Sharingan to auto-stop Genjutsu, is a much harder opponent for Itachi then Mei.

I don't even know how Trollkage would go about killing Orochimaru if the Hydra has regeneration, so that fight could go either way.



> Yes Itachi had disadvantages, so maybe  take away those disadvantages and he can beat Mei and Troll gauntlet style at the cost of his life.
> 
> However that still does not make up for the drastic increase in difficulty when it comes to facing them 1v2.



You're not understanding me. 

Itachi didn't face Sasuke and Orochimaru in a traditional gauntlet. He had to sit there and wait for Sasuke to run out of chakra, meaning he had to outlast, meaning he's going to be extremely tired for his next match in the "gauntlet."

Now, add the fact that _he has a fatal illness worsening his condition as the fight drags on_, and I'm certain that being forced to outlast a Kage level despite being extremely sickly and blind and _then_ having to go against another one right after is a _much_ more difficult task than taking on two other Kage (even if I were to grant that they are slightly stronger) at the same time with perfect eyesight and perfect health.

If Itachi had tried his hardest to kill Sasuke and _still_ died, then you'd have a point.



> And if we want to talk portrayal. Mei took on 5 Madara clones throughout the entire duration of the Kabuto fight. Gaara barely beat Troll with a number advantages, and Gaara as well was good enough to take on 5 Madara clones throughout the duration of the Kabuto fight. At some point these clones also starting using V3 EMS-Susano'o. That's well above anything Hebi-Sasuke ever did, and should be enough where it's obvious even Healthy-Itachi is not taking down ether Kage individually easy.



Mei and Gaara were getting their asses kicked....


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I would disagree mostly with most of that fight Sasuke was holding his on quite well. Hell Itachi thought he would stand no chance against the MS but it wasn't until Susanoo came out. True he got him with Amaterasu but he stopped Amaterasu "after" it burnt Sasuke's torso.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru with his manga knowledge would out survive Itachi in a battle.




Tsukuyomi. My belief is that Itachi made it so Sasuke could break it. My reasoning for this is simple. When Tsukuyomi was introduced, Itachi stated only an Uchiha with the same eyes as him could break it. Since then, everyone, myself included, believed that Sasuke would be the one to break it and this stand a chance at being able to fight Itachi and not have to worry about Genjutsu problems and defeat Itachi. However, this was not the case as Sasuke went to Itachi without the Mangekyou. So, how does Sasuke break it? Kakashi had a Sharingan too, and yet he was sent to the hospital for a week and was knocked out, and only came out so early because Tsunade came and healed him. So is it the Uchiha chakra? I don't think so, remember, Itachi himself needed the Uchiha that could break it, had to have the same eyes as Itachi, and Sasuke did not have the MS, something Itachi stated in the fight. Since then, some Itachi haters have stated that Sasuke broke out of it with the Curse seal, a theory, which didn't make any sense since physical power isn't eye power, and those aren't the requisites to breaking it that Itachi had stated. But this was basically proven false when Kabuto admitted he had to block his cornea in order to be able to overcome Tsukuyomi and all of Itachi's Genjutsus, despite him having the ultimate Sage Mode, and being leaps and bounds ahead of Hebi Sasuke. Later, Sasuke concluded that to break a Rinnegan Tsukuyomi from Madara, a Rinnegan would be needed, supporting Itachi's notion that you need MS to break an MS genjutsu. So I'm going with Itachi and Tobi on this one. As Tobi, when he said Itachi held back, esp showed Tsukuyomi being used.


Amaterasu. Itachi stopped Amaterasu that had engulfed Sasuke's Katon and was ready to hit Sasuke's face. We don't know exacly if Sasuke would have being able to escape that Amaterasu, but it was still chakra Itachi expended that he didn't have to expend.

Susanoo. Even if, which I heaviliy doubt, Itachi couldn't beat Sasuke with either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, he would have known it, since he knew about Oral rebirth, he knew about CS, he knew of Sasuke's sharingan and strength, and he could have used Susanoo much earlier and won.

Using Susanoo is tax consuming on his eyesight and chakra supply, but that's not an extreme high diff win, I'd be more like a mid diff win.

So yes, Itachi>>>Hebi Sasuke, even though Hebi Sasuke had specific counters and knowledge on most of Itachi's arsenal.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 2, 2014)

ITachi bout shit his pants when Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi. And Sasuke faced it multiple times before this he knew what to expect, Kakashi didn't and Kakashi's basis was proven valid in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight.

Alive Itachi can barely sustain Susanoo.

Itachi had no knowledge of Sasuke being able to circumvent the damage sustained from Amaterasu, but left the eyes in tact.

And yes Itachi>>>Hebi Sasuke they are in different leagues, but Sasuke still pushed Itachi.


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## Turrin (Sep 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke, who prepared counters for Itachi's weapon skills and has the Sharingan to auto-stop Genjutsu, is a much harder opponent for Itachi then Mei.
> .


Problem is people can't have it both ways. Ether Hebi-Sasuke's counters did work, and it wasn't just Itachi holding back; or they really didn't work, but Itachi held back make them seem as if they worked. If, you want to say they did work then, cool, that means Itachi was pushed to use his strongest-double edged sword Jutsu to defeat Hebi-Sasuke. If they didn't work than this point is irrelevant. 

And for the record I do not think Sasuke has better counters to Itachi's abilities than Mei. Mei's demonic mist and suitons are an absolute bitch for Itachi to handle.



> I don't even know how Trollkage would go about killing Orochimaru if the Hydra has regeneration, so that fight could go either way.


But this isn't about Troll vs Orochimaru. It's about Troll vs Itachi, or whether Troll is a more difficult opponent for most people to handle than a handicapped Orochimaru. Troll is both a more difficult enemy for Itachi and harder enemy for most people to handle than handicapped Orochimaru.



> IItachi didn't face Sasuke and Orochimaru in a traditional gauntlet. He had to sit there and wait for Sasuke to run out of chakra, meaning he had to outlast, meaning he's going to be extremely tired for his next match in the "gauntlet."
> 
> Now, add the fact that he has a fatal illness worsening his condition as the fight drags on, and I'm certain that being forced to outlast a Kage level despite being extremely sickly and blind and then having to go against another one right after is a much more difficult task than taking on two other Kage (even if I were to grant that they are slightly stronger) at the same time with perfect eyesight and perfect health.


Itachi defeated Hebi-Sasuke with disadvantages. Does that mean he'd beat someone stronger than Hebi-Sasuke w/o those disadvantages with greater ease than Hebi-Sasuke; no it does not, because that person is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke. It just means he'd perform better w/o those disadvantages, which is something I don't think anyone would dispute. 



> If Itachi had tried his hardest to kill Sasuke and still died, then you'd have a point.


No if Itachi tried his hardest to kill Hebi-Sasuke and died, than I'd say Mei solo's his ass. It's Itachi's performance that makes me believe he'd beat Mei more often than not.



> Mei and Gaara were getting their asses kicked....


Mei and Gaara started fighting the clones in ch 578. They fought them until ch 588. That's 10 chapters that they held their own against these clones. Than finally they get overwhelmed a bit, but it's not like they were defeated. Yes they would have probably lost eventually, but still this is a god dam impressive feat.

How much stronger than 5 Madara clones do you think Itachi is?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ITachi bout shit his pants when Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.


It's called acting.

Tobi stated Itachi acted that fight out. We don't know exacly what parts, but we do know the fight was acted, and had Itachi wanted Sasuke dead and taken his eyes, he could have done it. I already explained in detail why I believe Itachi allowed Sasuke to break it, if you don't believe it, then you are entitled to your opinion, but is just that, your opinion.



> And Sasuke faced it multiple times before this he knew what to expect, Kakashi didn't and Kakashi's basis was proven valid in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight.


Knowing about the jutsu doesn't matter shit. If for that, any Uchiha who had a sharingan would be able to break Tsukuyomi and thats not true.



> Alive Itachi can barely sustain Susanoo.



Proof it. He could barely use it after 3 MS jutsus. Itachi was already on his knees with his eyes bleeding and one eye basically blind and dying with sputum coming out his mouth with his illness. The difference between that and what he did in Part 1, where he used 3 MS jutsus and had to rest, but was not anywhere near as fucked up as he was when he fought Sasuke, suggests Itachi's condition deteriorated a lot till that point and part 1.

But unless you provide solid proof Itachi in part 1 could not sustain Susanoo well, then you're just making it up, as usual.



> Itachi had no knowledge of Sasuke being able to circumvent the damage sustained from Amaterasu, but left the eyes in tact.


You could say the same about how the fuck Itachi knew about Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi yet he knew. I don't believe Itachi would have risked killing Sasuke, when he did all this just to help Sasuke. I suggest you re-read that fight, as well as the Hell chapter where Tobi explains Itachi's motives and states that his motives were actually to free Sasuke from Orochimaru and at the same time make him stronger by allowing Sasuke to gain the MS. For the former, Itachi had to make Sasuke exhaust all his chakra supply, making it believable, which wasn't easy at all, and for the latter, he literally had to die.



> And yes Itachi>>>Hebi Sasuke they are in different leagues, but Sasuke still pushed Itachi.


I doubt it, considering Sasuke was owned by Killer Bee like 3 times, even with help, and Itachi toyed with Bee and could have ended it with the MS. Plus pushing someone that is 90% blind, dying, and wanting to lose isn't the same as pushing him if he were healthy, had good eyesight and actually wanted to win.

Fight someone wanting to lose, with your eyes semi closed, and with tuberculosis, and then tell me if it's easy.



Turrin said:


> Problem is people can't have it both ways. Ether Hebi-Sasuke's counters did work, and it wasn't just Itachi holding back; or they really didn't work, but Itachi held back make them seem as if they worked. If, you want to say they did work then, cool, that means Itachi was pushed to use his strongest-double edged sword Jutsu to defeat Hebi-Sasuke. If they didn't work than this point is irrelevant.


What if we take Tobi's word that Itachi acted out and thus conclude Itachi >>>Hebi Sasuke, which is the logical thing, since Itachi even lead Sasuke, when Sasuke had EMS, that is, Itachi's powers on top of his own, and had the decisive blow on Kabuto. I'm not saying Itachi>EMS Sasuke, but he sure as hell is stronger than Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke admitted he'd have lost to Orochimaru if Orochimaru wasn't handicapped, and we know Oro is much weaker than Itachi. Itachi also did a lot better againts Killer Bee.




> And for the record I do not think Sasuke has better counters to Itachi's abilities than Mei. Mei's demonic mist and suitons are an absolute bitch for Itachi to handle.


Itachi can get out of the range of the mist, which is something Itachi can easily do. Itachi can also reverse summon with his crows and just resummon and hit Mei from behind.

Itachi managed to hit Nagato through a dust cloud with Totsuka.

Assuming Itachi needs to form V2 Susanoo to survive the mist and land a successful Totsuka, the suitons aren't gonna be able to do anything.

But I'm more inclined to believe that Itachi takes this before Mei even uses the Mist. Why? She used the lava first againts both Madara and Sasuke.

And thats dodeable, or again, he could use Susanoo. However, even V1 ribcage managed to protect Sasuke from Mei's lava. Madara's ribcage also accomplished the same feat.

If thats the case, Itachi can just trap her in Genjutsu before she manages to use the Mist. And again, that would imply Itachi at worst using V1 Susanoo, which I doubt is half as tolling as using V4. If thats the case, Itachi might have enough chakra to deal with TrollKage as well. 



> But this isn't about Troll vs Orochimaru. It's about Troll vs Itachi, or whether Troll is a more difficult opponent for most people to handle than a handicapped Orochimaru. Troll is both a more difficult enemy for Itachi and harder enemy for most people to handle than handicapped Orochimaru.


Orochimaru was in his strongest form, while Itachi was dying/blind. In that form, why would he even need hands?

Orochimaru, with hands, got owned to Itachi when he was just a kid anyway.

TrollKage hasn't shown whats necessary to beat Orochimaru in Yamata no Orochi form.



> Mei and Gaara started fighting the clones in ch 578. They fought them until ch 588. That's 10 chapters that they held their own against these clones. Than finally they get overwhelmed a bit, but it's not like they were defeated. Yes they would have probably lost eventually, but still this is a god dam impressive feat.


Tsunade did better than Mei, does that means she's better than Itachi too?

No man, just no. Those clones didn't have Totsuka, they didn't have Amaterasu, they didn't have Tsukuyomi.

Madara was just toying around with them and divided his chakra by 25. So those Susanoo's weren't anywhere near as strong. Itachi'd Totsuka them most likely.


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## StickaStick (Sep 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> It's called acting.


I'm not sure that level of drama was needed to illustrate the point lol and it even strikes me as a bit unbelievable given Itachi's temperament that that could be anything other than genuine disbelief on his part.

Honestly, I have the same problem now with this interpretation as I did then. BZ was supposed to be the medium through which we (the readers) were told Itachi was "off". And yet during the fight BZ had no problem whatsoever excepting that Sasuke could break out of Tsukuyomi. To the contrary, he provided a very believable and sensible explanation. An explanation that I might add makes infinitely more sense in light of Sasuke's connection to Indra. (But frankly we didn't even need to know this back at the time because we had already been told Sasuke possessed eyes that would surpass Itachi's; that should have been a clear hint.) Throughout the fight BZ demonstrates his surprise at Itachi's performance, none of anything that has to do with Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi. A common counter is to point towards what Obito has to say afterwards but this doesn't hold much merit. It appears Obito was laying in on particularly thick in order to exacerbate Sasuke's emotions. When in reality Obito couldn't have possibly known to what degree the fight was a farce. This is supported by the fact that Obito outright lies in another instance, likely to achieve the same objective. We _know _Itachi had ulterior motivates and essentially tanked the fight; however to what degree is what is debated. And frankly Itachi allowing Sasuke to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi makes no sense by itself given Itachi's objectives so I really see no reason to think that's what happened, in light of everything else we know.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2014)

The Format said:


> No it's not.  If the fight had been 2-on-1 at the outset with a non-restricted Oro Itachi would have lost badly. Like, murderstomp badly.


Itachi took out non restricted Oro with 3 tomoe genjutsu and a kunai. Also a Non restricted Orochimaru already admitted inferiority to Itachi. 

I have no idea which manga you are reading.

If the fight had been 2 on 1, Itachi'd whip out Susano'o and sweep both of them with Totsuka with 0 difficulty. 




> Come on man. I know I don't have to point out the obvious flaw with your assertion here given the context of what Sasuke said and the fact that Sasuke couldn't possibly be aware of what Oro was capable of at full-strength anyhow.




Kishimoto made it clear that both Oro & Sasuke believed that they'd only stand a change against Itachi if they merged. 
I am pretty sure you know this manga better than the author, but for now lets use his work as a basis for our arguments and not your opinions shall we ?


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## Turrin (Sep 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Tobi stated Itachi acted that fight out. We don't know exacly what parts, but we do know the fight was acted, and had Itachi wanted Sasuke dead and taken his eyes, he could have done it. I already explained in detail why I believe Itachi allowed Sasuke to break it, if you don't believe it, then you are entitled to your opinion, but is just that, your opinion.
> .


This is the prime example of why I don't like responding to you about Itachi, because you go off on tangents that are completely irrelevant to what I said. Your talking about why Hebi-Sasuke is weaker than Itachi, wonderful, that's something nobody disputed.


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## Rocky (Sep 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Problem is people can't have it both ways. Ether Hebi-Sasuke's counters did work, and it wasn't just Itachi holding back; or they really didn't work, but Itachi held back make them seem as if they worked. If, you want to say they did work then, cool, that means Itachi was pushed to use his strongest-double edged sword Jutsu to defeat Hebi-Sasuke. If they didn't work than this point is irrelevant.



This makes no sense. They didn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that Sasuke's a better match up for Itachi than Mei.



> And for the record I do not think Sasuke has better counters to Itachi's abilities than Mei. Mei's demonic mist and suitons are an absolute bitch for Itachi to handle.



Itachi can read her hand signs and _preempt_ her jutsu, so Suiton isn't a problem. 

Itachi just puts up Susano'o and slaughters Mei anyway.



> But this isn't about Troll vs Orochimaru. It's about Troll vs Itachi, or whether Troll is a more difficult opponent for most people to handle than a handicapped Orochimaru. Troll is both a more difficult enemy for Itachi and harder enemy for most people to handle than handicapped Orochimaru.



Itachi would have the same difficulty with both. Susano'o GG. Actually, since Trollkage has next to no knowledge on Itachi, he'd face the same fate as Deidara or Orochimaru. 

If anything, he'd have more trouble with Orochimaru since Susano'o was really the only option against Hydra.



> Itachi defeated Hebi-Sasuke with disadvantages. Does that mean he'd beat someone stronger than Hebi-Sasuke w/o those disadvantages with greater ease than Hebi-Sasuke; no it does not, because that person is stronger than Hebi-Sasuke. It just means he'd perform better w/o those disadvantages, which is something I don't think anyone would dispute.



Even if you think Mei can defeat Sasuke due to match up, she isn't stronger than him. He can take out people she cannot, like Deidara, for example. 



> Mei and Gaara started fighting the clones in ch 578. They fought them until ch 588. That's 10 chapters that they held their own against these clones. Than finally they get overwhelmed a bit, but it's not like they were defeated. Yes they would have probably lost eventually, but still this is a god dam impressive feat.



I don't know exactly how long "10 chapters" is, and we saw of that battle was them getting the shit kicked out of them.

They were clearly outclassed.


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## StickaStick (Sep 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi took out non restricted Oro with 3 tomoe genjutsu and a kunai. Also a Non restricted Orochimaru already admitted inferiority to Itachi.


You're ignoring such factors as: 
now Oro would have more knowledge (key against Itachi).
has developed and learned new jutsus/abilities since then (e.g., ET).
was not even engaging Itachi is combat to begin with so...



> If the fight had been 2 on 1, Itachi'd whip out Susano'o and sweep both of them with Totsuka with 0 difficulty.


So now Itachi is willing to kill Sasuke even tho he still has Naruto and Koto as a back-up plan  

Btw, when has an alive Itachi ever MS blizted right off the bat? Do you have something to back up this sudden change in demeanor? 



> Kishimoto made it clear that both Oro & Sasuke believed that they'd only stand a change against Itachi if they merged.


Where is this stated or implied? 

Even funnier is according to you Itachi Totsuka blitzes low diff. so why would Kishi imply that a Sasuke + Oro fusion would make a difference? 



> I am pretty sure you know this manga better than the author, but for now lets use his work as a basis for our arguments and not your opinions shall we ?


Everything you've asserted has been an unsubstantiated opinion; whereas I can point to the fact that Sick Itachi was pushed towards using his trump card by Hebi Sasuke (low-level Kage fighter) by himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2014)

The Format said:


> You're ignoring such factors as:
> now Oro would have more knowledge (key against Itachi).


I am not ignoring this, I just think Orochimaru's limited capacity doesn't allow him to take advantage of that. Orochimaru'd still get oneshot by Tsukiyomi and Susano'O is something he can't deal with under any circumstances.



> has developed and learned new jutsus/abilities since then (e.g., ET).


Evidence he didn't have those back then ? 

He also admitted inferiority to Itachi after Konoha invasion, when he clearly had ET. 



> was not even engaging Itachi is combat to begin with so...


Whats this based on ? 



> So now Itachi is willing to kill Sasuke even tho he still has Naruto and Koto as a back-up plan


I am talking about a hypothetical battledome scenario obviously where Orochimaru & Sasuke attack him @ the same time.



> Btw, when has an alive Itachi ever MS blizted right off the bat? Do you have something to back up this sudden change in demeanor?


Alive Itachi never fought anyone with killing intent, so it is an unreasonable request. 

Itachi dispatching Nagato & his summons under 2 seconds with Amaterasu the moment he gained control of his actions is enough evidence that he'll make use of MS if its necessary.



> Where is this stated or implied?


Sasuke said so in the same page I posted.



> Even funnier is according to you Itachi Totsuka blitzes low diff. so why would Kishi imply that a Sasuke + Oro fusion would make a difference?



We are discussing a hypothetical scenario, but Sasuke had no knowledge on Susano'O, he probably thought getting a pair of sharingan and cursed seal would allow  Orochimaru or himself to fight Itachi equally. I never said his claim was right, I just pointed out that Sasuke, who knew about his own and Orochimaru's potentials thought they wouldn't stand a chance against Itachi unless they merged.




> Everything you've asserted has been an unsubstantiated opinion; *whereas I can point to the fact that Sick Itachi was pushed towards using his trump card by Hebi Sasuke* (low-level Kage fighter) by himself.


You've said this before, and I told you to re-read the manga, *as your interpretation* is flat out wrong.


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## StickaStick (Sep 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not ignoring this, I just think Orochimaru's limited capacity doesn't allow him to take advantage of that. Orochimaru'd still get oneshot by Tsukiyomi and Susano'O is something he can't deal with under any circumstances.


Oro has full knowledge and is now going to engage Itachi in a staring contest. This while Sasuke is standing around doing nothing in particular. With no game plan to speak of. K.



> Evidence he didn't have those back then ?


I'm willing to believe he may have been able to use it back then. But this is really a dbl-edged sword, for if Oro really was engaging Itachi in combat then why would he not have used it?

Regardless, at the very least we can agree he would have improved upon since then iif he did have it. 



> He also admitted inferiority to Itachi after Konoha invasion, when he clearly had ET.


This is not Oro vs. Itachi (where I know at that point Itachi was superior). This is Oro + Sasuke vs. Itachi.  



> Whats this based on ?


That fact that he attempted to sneak use Fushi Tensei on him. 



> I am talking about a hypothetical battledome scenario obviously where Orochimaru & Sasuke attack him @ the same time.


Fair enough; but I was referring to the scenario as it happened in the manga. Itachi will killer-intent I know can do better then being murderstomped.



> Alive Itachi never fought anyone with killing intent, so it is an unreasonable request.


Maybe because Kishi never wanted to Itachi to be seen as someone who fights out-of-character? Instead, you take liberties with his lack of showing killer intent and assume he's going to MS blitz with no regard to his own well being.



> Itachi dispatching Nagato & his summons under 2 seconds with Amaterasu the moment he gained control of his actions is enough evidence that he'll make use of MS if its necessary.


He was an Edo. 



> Sasuke said so in the same page I posted.


You're being openly disingenuous when you ignore the fact that Sasuke said "right now", at a point in time in which Oro was restricted. And furthermore, ignoring the fact that Sasuke likely didn't know what Oro was capable of at full-strength (how could he have). 



> We are discussing a hypothetical scenario, but Sasuke had no knowledge on Susano'O, he probably thought getting a pair of sharingan and cursed seal would allow  Orochimaru or himself to fight Itachi equally. I never said his claim was right, I just pointed out that Sasuke, who knew about his own and Orochimaru's potentials thought they wouldn't stand a chance against Itachi unless they merged.


Fair enough.



> You've said this before, and I told you to re-read the manga, *as your interpretation* is flat out wrong.


You tell me that, but you don't state how. How am I supposed to respond to a claim that is so lacking?


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## Turrin (Sep 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This makes no sense. They didn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that Sasuke's a better match up for Itachi than Mei.
> .


His counters don't work, yet he's a better match up than someone whose counters may work. How does that, make sense 



> Itachi can read her hand signs and preempt her jutsu, so Suiton isn't a problem.


So Itachi's much better than Sasuke and more importantly Edo Madara, both of which did not demonstrate the ability to do this. In-fact Mei's casting speed was faster than Madara's, as she was able to cast a Suiton technique to defend Madara's Katon at the last second before it hit Tsunade:
Link removed



> achi just puts up Susano'o and slaughters Mei anyway.


Susano'o defends Itachi, but it doesn't allow Itachi any sensory abilities to find Mei in the mist, and it's not a technique he can spam.



> Itachi would have the same difficulty with both. Susano'o GG. Actually, since Trollkage has next to no knowledge on Itachi, he'd face the same fate as Deidara or Orochimaru.


How does Itachi find Troll through the Clam's Genjutsu to Susano'o GG him. And Troll would be more difficult even if he did find him, because Troll can split into water, via Suika no Jutsu, to avoid being completely sealed right off the bat. 



> If anything, he'd have more trouble with Orochimaru since Susano'o was really the only option against Hydra.


It's his only option against Troll's too and even that may be difficult due to Suika no Jutsu.



> Even if you think Mei can defeat Sasuke due to match up, she isn't stronger than him. He can take out people she cannot, like Deidara, for example.


It not match up. There was nothing match up about Sasuke needing Susano'o to survive a few Youton blasts. There's nothing match up about Mei performing amicably against 5 Madara clones that would WTFPWN Hebi-Sasuke in moments. 

And Mei would rape Deidara. Mei held out like 5x longer against Madara clones than Deidara w/ help and Edo Buffs held out against the Ambush Squad. The difference in portrayal is astronomical. 



> I don't know exactly how long "10 chapters" is, and we saw of that battle was them getting the shit kicked out of them.


It's at least long enough for the many jutsu exchanges that took place during the Kabuto fight. 



> They were clearly outclassed.


Kaguya clearly outclasses everyone, but if someone lasted 10 chapters fighting her I'd consider that person god-tier. The same applies here. Being outclassed by 5 EMS-Susano'o wielding clones doesn't mean much for the level were discussing, and the very fact that she took them on is impressive beyond anything we've seen out Hebi-Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Sep 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> His counters don't work, yet he's a better match up than someone whose counters may work. How does that, make sense



Mei's counters wouldn't work.



> So Itachi's much better than Sasuke and more importantly Edo Madara, both of which did not demonstrate the ability to do this. In-fact Mei's casting speed was faster than Madara's, as she was able to cast a Suiton technique to defend Madara's Katon at the last second before it hit Tsunade:
> It was shown that Gai has to stab himself before opening the eighth gate



Itachi's hand sign speed is faster than both Madara's, Sasuke's, and Mei's.



> Susano'o defends Itachi, but it doesn't allow Itachi any sensory abilities to find Mei in the mist, and it's not a technique he can spam.



If Mei goes zero visibility, then she won't be able to locate Itachi either, meaning the Uchiha won't need his Susano'o.

Funnily enough, Itachi has the better feats of fighting blind, plus_ superhuman insight_ to _predict attack patterns._



> How does Itachi find Troll through the Clam's Genjutsu to Susano'o GG him. And Troll would be more difficult even if he did find him, because Troll can split into water, via Suika no Jutsu, to avoid being completely sealed right off the bat.



The Sharingan can see through illusions.

Also, you didn't address the fact that Trollkage may just lose at the match's start to Sharingan paralytic genjutsu, like Orochimaru or Deidara.`



> It's his only option against Troll's too and even that may be difficult due to Suika no Jutsu.



Tsukuyomi and genjutsu also work on him.



> It not match up. There was nothing match up about Sasuke needing Susano'o to survive a few Youton blasts. There's nothing match up about Mei performing amicably against 5 Madara clones that would WTFPWN Hebi-Sasuke in moments.



Sasuke didn't need Susano'o, he just chose to use it, and the clones would not "WTFPWN" Sasuke in moments. You're just spouting nonsense. 



> And Mei would rape Deidara. Mei held out like 5x longer against Madara clones than Deidara w/ help and Edo Buffs held out against the Ambush Squad. The difference in portrayal is astronomical.



Deidara glasses Mei with C3 or disintegrates her with C4 and calls it a day.



> Kaguya clearly outclasses everyone, but if someone lasted 10 chapters fighting her I'd consider that person god-tier.



Since Kaguya is god tier, a person that lasts 10 chapters against her is god tier, huh? So since Madara is top tier, Mei lasting 10 chapters against him makes her top tier. 

Cool story.



> The same applies here. Being outclassed by 5 EMS-Susano'o wielding clones doesn't mean much for the level were discussing, and the very fact that she took them on is impressive beyond anything we've seen out Hebi-Sasuke.



I'll say it again; all we saw was her getting her ass beat. Madara was jobbing, with his arms crossed, and he still crushed Mei like worm.

 Hebi Sasuke would perform just as well, if not better.


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## Turrin (Sep 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Mei's counters wouldn't work.


Based on.......



> Itachi's hand sign speed is faster than both Madara's, Sasuke's, and Mei's.


Seems like the same speed as Sasuke to me:
_predict attack patterns._
_predict attack patterns._

As for Madara he only needs 1 hand-seal to cast his Katon:
_predict attack patterns._

So Itachi would need to A) react to an incoming attack as quickly as Madara, and B) cast all his seals faster than it takes Madara to form one. Madara's clearly has better reaction feats than Itachi, and even if Itachi's seal speed is faster than Madara's, I very much doubt he can complete all his seals faster than the time it takes Madara to complete 1 seal.

Also don't see how Itachi can read Mei's seals when they are obscured by Demonic Mist.



> If Mei goes zero visibility, then she won't be able to locate Itachi either, meaning the Uchiha won't need his Susano'o.


Mei almost certainly knows the silent killing method. Beyond that canonically Mei was able to use Demonic Mist to cloud the Rinnegan's field of vision while still enabling the Gokage to attack Madara. So no that is not true.



> Funnily enough, Itachi has the better feats of fighting blind, plus superhuman insight to predict attack patterns.


Superhuman indeed:
_predict attack patterns._

Itachi can guess at how the enemy attacks, but he's going to get it wrong a-lot. Heck the first time he was only able to predict Kabuto's actions based on having knowledge of Kabuto/Orochimaru, and their obsession to take Sasuke's body. What intimate knowledge does he have of Mei that would allow him to predict her attacks?



> The Sharingan can see through illusions.


Sharingan can see through illusions but it takes time. For example:
_predict attack patterns._
_predict attack patterns._
_predict attack patterns._

And the problem with the Clam's illusion is it keeps being cast. So Itachi may see through one mirage eventually, but than it'll just ensnare him again creating more mirages. There's also the risk of being killed before he realizes he's in an illusion, in the first place.



> Also, you didn't address the fact that Trollkage may just lose at the match's start to Sharingan paralytic genjutsu, like Orochimaru or Deidara.`


Okay this assumes 

A) Match starts at short
B) Itachi uses paralytic gen before Troll pulls out clam

But okay let's say it goes down that way. Than Itachi's follow up is to cut off Trolls hand or throw some kunai at him, which accomplishes nothing because of Troll's Suika no jutsu. 

Itachi would have to use Binding Genjutsu and than follow up w/ Totsuka-Sword, something that's vastly OOC, and results in more difficult than he had w/ Orochimaru anyway as he'd need to land Binding Genjutsu and use his final form Susano'o, while he just needed Susano'o for Orochi.



> Tsukuyomi and genjutsu also work on him.


If Troll doesn't just avoid eye-contact. If the Clam is destroyed. If Itachi can find troll who hides while he uses Joki Boi. 

Plus, you know Itachi can also use Tsukuyomi on Orochimaru too.



> Sasuke didn't need Susano'o, he just chose to use it,


Copy - Sasuke evaded the smaller Youton attack, but when Mei used a larger one he pulled out Susano'o to defend; that speaks towards necessity, not arbitrary usage. All the other times he pulled out Susano'o to defend were also out of necessity. The toll Susano'o takes on the user also makes it nonsensical to arbitrary utilize it when one could otherwise evade the attack. Mei also has other feats of extremely quick Jutsu activation that supports why Sasuke would need Susano'o to defend, as outlined in Godaime's Thread that I posted a link to. That's 4 things that point towards Susano'o being a necessity there rather than being arbitrary. You have presented no reasons for arbitrary Susano'o usage.

Can I prove 100% that Sasuke didn't arbitrarily use Susano'o; no I can not. But I should not have to prove something 100% for you to acknowledge that Susano'o being a necessity is vastly more likely given the the above 4 factors than Susano'o usage being arbitrary. Are we having an honest conversation about what is likely or is your sole goal to argue for the sake of arguing?

Otherwise I might as well say Mei Shunshin blitz's Sasuke lopping off his head with a Kunai; prove me wrong. Than you give a well informed argument as to why that's not the case, but since we haven't seen Mei's Shunshin you can't 100% prove it, and I just say fuck you, you can't prove it, so Mei wins. - Paste



> the clones would not "WTFPWN" Sasuke in moments


They wouldn't? Based on what? Each clone was powerful enough to use V3 EMS-Susano'o. How is Sasuke standing up to clones that powerful, like at all?



> Deidara glasses Mei with C3 or disintegrates her with C4 and calls it a day.


That's wonderful, too bad Deidara wouldn't last long enough to even use those moves. He dies to Youton or Futton rather quickly, and even if he tries to escape to the sky Water-Dragon blows him away. 



> Since Kaguya is god tier, a person that lasts 10 chapters against her is god tier, huh? So since Madara is top tier, Mei lasting 10 chapters against him makes her top tier.


Kaguya is the only top-tier FYI

With that aside, this is attacking a straw-man. Because Mei did not last 10 chapters against Madara, she lasted 10 chapters against Madara's clones; nor did I say that makes someone the same strength as Kaguya, just that they'd be godly stronger.



> I'll say it again; all we saw was her getting her ass beat. Madara was jobbing, with his arms crossed, and he still crushed Mei like worm.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke would perform just as well, if not better.


So let's just ignore that she survive 10 chapters, because when we see her she is being overwhelmed by the clones who are now using EMS-Susnao'o? That is a completely unfair way to view the characters feat, and I believe you know that.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 3, 2014)

@ Turrin. Just cause Itachi aimed at cutting Oro's hand, doesn't mean he could have done the head.

Oro would be fine due to his regeneration, but what about other ppl?


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## Rocky (Sep 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Based on.......



Stuff I'll tell you below.



> Seems like the same speed as Sasuke to me:
> HE CANʻT PERFECTLY CONTROL SOMEONE WITH GENJUTSU FROM SUCH A RANGE.
> HE CANʻT PERFECTLY CONTROL SOMEONE WITH GENJUTSU FROM SUCH A RANGE.



Sasuke was in awe that Itachi had the time to form hand seals in the middle of a shuriken duel.



> So Itachi would need to A) react to an incoming attack as quickly as Madara, and B) cast all his seals faster than it takes Madara to form one. Madara's clearly has better reaction feats than Itachi, and even if Itachi's seal speed is faster than Madara's, I very much doubt he can complete all his seals faster than the time it takes Madara to complete 1 seal.



We're talking about Mei. Itachi do the same to Mei that he did to Sage Mode Kabuto.



> Mei almost certainly knows the silent killing method. Beyond that canonically Mei was able to use Demonic Mist to cloud the Rinnegan's field of vision while still enabling the Gokage to attack Madara. So no that is not true.



If Itachi's vision is only clouded and not obscured completely, he'll still absolutely obliterate Mei with Susano'o like he did to Orochimaru while blind.



> What intimate knowledge does he have of Mei that would allow him to predict her attacks?



If it's the full knowledge scenario, then there's your answer. If it's a no knowledge scenario, then why is she opting for the Mist at all?




> Sharingan can see through illusions but it takes time. For example:
> HE CANʻT PERFECTLY CONTROL SOMEONE WITH GENJUTSU FROM SUCH A RANGE.
> HE CANʻT PERFECTLY CONTROL SOMEONE WITH GENJUTSU FROM SUCH A RANGE.
> HE CANʻT PERFECTLY CONTROL SOMEONE WITH GENJUTSU FROM SUCH A RANGE.
> ...



I see no indication that Sasuke didn't see through that illusion right away. We could've been viewing it through Jugo's perspective



> Okay this assumes
> 
> A) Match starts at short
> B) Itachi uses paralytic gen before Troll pulls out clam



Like two of Itachi's other, canon fights...



> But okay let's say it goes down that way. Than Itachi's follow up is to cut off Trolls hand or throw some kunai at him, which accomplishes nothing because of Troll's Suika no jutsu.



Trollkage may not be able to mold the chakra for that jutsu like that under the effects of an illusion, which is what I believe happened with Orochimaru.



> You have presented no reasons for arbitrary Susano'o usage.



That's really the only explanation that makes sense.

Sasuke is faster than Mei and has the Sharingan to predict her moves. At a short distance, I don't see how raising his arm and using Chidori Spear is going to take more time than Mei making hand seals and blowing an entire stream of lava out of her mouth....



> They wouldn't? Based on what? Each clone was powerful enough to use V3 EMS-Susano'o. How is Sasuke standing up to clones that powerful, like at all?



He would probably get his ass kicked, just like Mei. 

He at least has the potential to do better by flying away and preparing for Kirin.



> That's wonderful, too bad Deidara wouldn't last long enough to even use those moves. He dies to Youton or Futton rather quickly, and even if he tries to escape to the sky Water-Dragon blows him away.



If the match is at short, he can use the explosion of C1 for cover to swap out with a Bomb Clone and gain distance. If the match is already at distance, Deidara takes to the skies and nukes. Water Dragon get's intercepted by C2, and everything else we've seen from Mei won't be hitting an evasive, flying opponent.



> With that aside, this is attacking a straw-man. Because Mei did not last 10 chapters against Madara, she lasted 10 chapters against Madara's clones; nor did I say that makes someone the same strength as Kaguya, just that they'd be godly stronger.



Turrin, you said that lasting ten chapters against Kaguya would make them god-tier, a.k.a. Kaguya's tier. She is the strongest in that tier, yes, but she's still tiered with Naruto, Sasuke, JJ Madara, and the like.

So using that logic, Mei lasting 10 chapters against Madara puts her on Madara's tier, right? 

ck



> So let's just ignore that she survive 10 chapters, because when we see her she is being overwhelmed by the clones who are now using EMS-Susnao'o? That is a completely unfair way to view the characters feat, and I believe you know that.



She could've been getting her ass kicked for ten chapters. I don't know why you're acting like she was fighting on par with them for an extended amount of time.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> It's called acting.
> 
> Tobi stated Itachi acted that fight out. We don't know exacly what parts, but we do know the fight was acted, and had Itachi wanted Sasuke dead and taken his eyes, he could have done it. I already explained in detail why I believe Itachi allowed Sasuke to break it, if you don't believe it, then you are entitled to your opinion, but is just that, your opinion.


Answer me this, Would any Uchiha ever accept that an Uchiha who fully awakened his MS, lost to his little brother who could only access up to the 3 tomoe especially in genjutsu when the older one is a genjutsu expert? I don't think so. 

Itachi was hyped throughout the manga. Zetsu himself admitted that he wasn't fully aware of Itachi's abilities(when he first seen Susanoo) and most the time Itachi was never pressed by any opponent he had ever fought up to that point bar maybe Jiraiya, whom he retreated from after using Tsukuyomi. Yes some parts, like if Itachi didn't want to test Sasuke's drive, maybe to further his progress like what happens to Uchihas when faced with difficult positions, Maybe awaken his MS, maybe thats why Itachi was surprised because he didn't need MS to break Tsukuyomi and didn't have to achieve it.

Then Sasuke circumvented Amaterasu without Itachi(read carefully you missed this earlier) knowing that Sasuke had a viable counter for such damage that he sustained. 

Sasuke also out shuriken spammed him, and got him a couple of times.

Itachi could've shit stomped Sasuke...I know that, we all know that. BUT he was pressed in that fight and was forced himself into difficult positions.





> Knowing about the jutsu doesn't matter shit. If for that, any Uchiha who had a sharingan would be able to break Tsukuyomi and thats not true.


False you know how to anticipate it, what the effects are and their effects on the body...useful knowledge.

When Kakashi asked Itachi how blind he was and Itachi went for Tsukuyomi again? Why? He could've much easier dodged and went on a slaughtering spree like many surmise he can. To see if Kakashi had truly unlocked MS as Itachi thinks its impossible to counter such a high level genjutsu with an inferior eye. But a master with a knife can kill a novice with a gun.



> Proof it. He could barely use it after 3 MS jutsus. Itachi was already on his knees with his eyes bleeding and one eye basically blind and dying with sputum coming out his mouth with his illness. The difference between that and what he did in Part 1, where he used 3 MS jutsus and had to rest, but was not anywhere near as fucked up as he was when he fought Sasuke, suggests Itachi's condition deteriorated a lot till that point and part 1.
> 
> But unless you provide solid proof Itachi in part 1 could not sustain Susanoo well, then you're just making it up, as usual.


Because his body was already weak, so him sustaining Susanoo which hurts the user's body intensely and to the very cells. I don't see him using it for long at all no more than maybe a minute more than he did in the Sasuke fight. I don't know what sputum is, but that was blood and is in direct relation with using Susanoo as was shown by Sasuke numerous times before he achieved the EMS. His eye was bleeding because of Amaterasu as was shown by Sasuke numerous times as well.

But in p1 in the timeframe you are suggesting he wasn't constantly fighting. He skirmished with Kakashi and Co. and used Tsukuyomi(causes headaches and head pains, as was shown by Sasuke) then retreated when Gai showed up, and headed to the outskirts(possibly outside not sure on exact location) to where Naruto was then used Tsukuyomi then "retreated"(instead of fighting with a powerhouse like Kisame standing next to them) and then used Amaterasu during the retreat.

He didn't show no more, didn't show superior feats...I don't see what your talking about. On and was on his knees praying for God...jk but that was due to the force of Kirin.

Sasuke landed solid hits against Itachi which hurts his stamina.


> You could say the same about how the fuck Itachi knew about Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi yet he knew. I don't believe Itachi would have risked killing Sasuke, when he did all this just to help Sasuke. I suggest you re-read that fight, as well as the Hell chapter where Tobi explains Itachi's motives and states that his motives were actually to free Sasuke from Orochimaru and at the same time make him stronger by allowing Sasuke to gain the MS. For the former, Itachi had to make Sasuke exhaust all his chakra supply, making it believable, which wasn't easy at all, and for the latter, he literally had to die.


Whatever just saying, I don't even think Oral Rebirth could circumvent that type of destruction.

Yes, I know, but Itachi wasn't in control all the time and was pushed.





> I doubt it, considering Sasuke was owned by Killer Bee like 3 times, even with help, and Itachi toyed with Bee and could have ended it with the MS. Plus pushing someone that is 90% blind, dying, and wanting to lose isn't the same as pushing him if he were healthy, had good eyesight and actually wanted to win.


What MS Tsukuyomi(genjutsu), or Amaterasu? Bee could've blocked it with a tentacle as he felt the pressure wave, and genjutsu is null against a perfect jin, which is in direct relation to 1 time Sasuke got owned. Itachi didn't toy with Bee, Bee had the advantage the entire time and was never pressured, unlike Itachi.

Yet 3t broke an MS Genjutsu...Itachi's Tsukuyomi...three tomoe....Imma leave it at that.


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## Dr. White (Sep 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Answer me this, Would any Uchiha ever accept that an Uchiha who fully awakened his MS, lost to his little brother who could only access up to the 3 tomoe especially in genjutsu when the older one is a genjutsu expert? I don't think so.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Itachi clearly wasn't going to accept killing Sasuke or putting him into a coma.



> Itachi was hyped throughout the manga. Zetsu himself admitted that he wasn't fully aware of Itachi's abilities(when he first seen Susanoo) and most the time Itachi was never pressed by any opponent he had ever fought up to that point bar maybe Jiraiya, whom he retreated from after using Tsukuyomi.


-He ran from Jiraiya for the sake of Konoha/innocents.



> Then Sasuke circumvented Amaterasu without Itachi(read carefully you missed this earlier) knowing that Sasuke had a viable counter for such damage that he sustained.


Itachi had plenty of ways to know Sasuke could survive. He knew a ton about Orochimaru already and
-Itachi had seen Sasuke defend one of his katons with the CS2 wing. Meaning he knew it was dispensible to Sasuke. Hence why we see Itachi clearly aiming for the wing.
-Itachi didn't send Amaterasu at Sasuke until after Sasuke already started running (remember he also had CS1 increasing his stats), which he was prompted to do after seeing Ama burn his katon.
-Itachi knew Sasuke would rely on Oro to overcome Ama, which he kinda did.



> Sasuke also out shuriken spammed him, and got him a couple of times.


He got him once with a rigged shuriken, that Zetsu outright claimed Itachi would have dodged.



> Itachi could've shit stomped Sasuke...I know that, we all know that. BUT he was pressed in that fight and was forced himself into difficult positions.False you know how to anticipate it, what the effects are and their effects on the body...useful knowledge.


You act like it is super easy to simply fend off someone as strong as Hebi Sasuke, whilst also portraying you are actually attempting to kill them.

It be like If I was a 25 year old experienced Black Belt, and so was my 20 year old younger brother. Even If I am > him, if I take it easy without intent on actually beating and let him dish out everything at me, I'd be bound to take some damage. Especially if I planned to die in that fight.




> Because his body was already weak, so him sustaining Susanoo which hurts the user's body intensely and to the very cells. I don't see him using it for long at all no more than maybe a minute more than he did in the Sasuke fight.


His body was weak from sickness. Also Itachi had his Susano out for way more than a minute, and tanking Kirin required a shit ton of concentrationa nd chakra.

cause of Amaterasu as was shown by Sasuke numerous times as well.



> But in p1 in the timeframe you are suggesting he wasn't constantly fighting. He skirmished with Kakashi and Co. and used Tsukuyomi(causes headaches and head pains, as was shown by Sasuke) then retreated when Gai showed up,


Itachi was trying to minimalize casualties hence why he spared not one shotting Kurenai and Asuma and spared Kakashi's life, which Kakashi himself admitted.

He only went after Naruto to appease Kisame/tobi and see Sasuke possibly.

Itachi literally didn't even move a muscles while right in front of Naruto, making eye contact. Had he wanted he could have genjutsu'd him when he opened the door took him, and fled way before Jiraiya showed up.



> and headed to the outskirts(possibly outside not sure on exact location) to where Naruto was then used Tsukuyomi then "retreated"(instead of fighting with a powerhouse like Kisame standing next to them) and then used Amaterasu during the retreat.


He used ama defensively when attempting to escape Jiraiya.




> Sasuke landed solid hits against Itachi which hurts his stamina.
> Whatever just saying, I don't even think Oral Rebirth could circumvent that type of destruction.


Sasuke managed to stab Itachi's leg, burn his arm, and give him some scalding from Kirin. Itachi mananged to beat him and Oro and also leave Sasuke in amazing shape despite decisively beating both (and holding back completely from 1)



> Yes, I know, but Itachi wasn't in control all the time and was pushed.What MS Tsukuyomi(genjutsu), or Amaterasu? Bee could've blocked it with a tentacle as he felt the pressure wave, and genjutsu is null against a perfect jin, which is in direct relation to 1 time Sasuke got owned. Itachi didn't toy with Bee, Bee had the advantage the entire time and was never pressured, unlike Itachi.


Tsukuyomi would beat Bee, per KCM Naruto's (aperfect Jin) mouth.

Bee can break his 3 tomoe, but it isn't instant. For instance in the time it took Bee to realize he was in a genjutsu and break it, Itachi had Bee trying to grasp at air (what he thought was Itachi), and managed to get several weapons very close before he broke it. Sub in Ama or Totsuka stab and the 3 tomoe would have done its job.



> Yet 3t broke an MS Genjutsu...Itachi's Tsukuyomi...three tomoe....Imma leave it at that.


It is manga canon Itachi can control is Tsukuyomi. Hence why Kakashi survived his, as well as pre skip sasuke. Tobi specifically tells us Ms was only used to draw out Oro and Sasuke would have been dead had Itachi wanted.

Itachi controls every aspect of Tsukuyomi and can control the severity of it. Sasuke broke a really weak Tsukuyomi. A serious Itachi ends him.


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## Turrin (Sep 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke was in awe that Itachi had the time to form hand seals in the middle of a shuriken duel.


The instance your referring to could have been due to Itachi's shuriken skill being better than Sasuke's or as simple as Sasuke being impressed, but Itachi not being actually better than he was in seal forming speed. IDK, what I do know is that this really doesn't change the fact that we are blatantly shown Sasuke keeping up with Itachi in seal speed.



> We're talking about Mei. Itachi do the same to Mei that he did to Sage Mode Kabuto.


Godaime-Tsumade, _"With suiton, Mei's attack was so fast that it could cover a greater distance than that of Madara's katon the very minute he produced one, and it is even able to extinguish it before it can reach Tsunade. [even though its already dangerously close to her] [ 1 ] Mei's Yōkai no Jutsu was quick enough to the point that it moved with around the same swiftness as a V1 Ei, who took off to attack Madara at roughly the same time [1]" _



> If Itachi's vision is only clouded and not obscured completely, he'll still absolutely obliterate Mei with Susano'o like he did to Orochimaru while blind.


Again Mei almost certainly has the Silent-Killing Method. And even if she doesn't, the moment that Itachi brings out Susano'o, Mei will simply increase the density of the mist. And even if that impairs her vision, she can still use Futton: Kōmu no Jutsu to attack Itachi. If Itachi retreats than Mei lowers the density of the mist simply to the point used against Madara and starts using long-range Suitons.



> If it's the full knowledge scenario, then there's your answer.


Even with Full knowledge he isn't going to be able to predict exactly how Mei's is going to attack. It's not like Mei is a pedo that has an obvious goal like trying to capture Sasuke's bod. And even if he can predict a few attacks, that doesn't get him far, because eventually like against Buto, he will fuck up



> If it's a no knowledge scenario, then why is she opting for the Mist at all?


I was assuming it's "manga" knowledge. Where Mei along with the rest of the alliance had Naruto's memories transferred to them including the his confrontation with Nagato and Itachi:
[1

And of course Mei almost certainly knew about Itachi enough to know his skill w/ Sharingan before than given his infamy and connection to Sasuke.



> I see no indication that Sasuke didn't see through that illusion right away. We could've been viewing it through Jugo's perspective


So Sasuke just let Ei get right next to him for no reason....come on dude. But fine how about Itachi himself getting caught by Kurunai's Genjutsu and having to use Magen Kyo Tenchi Ten to redirect it? How about the multiple times Sasuke got caught in Itachi's Genjutsu for a certain period of time, and the same is true of Itachi getting caught in Sasuke's Genjutsu. How about Itachi thinking Kotoamatsukami would work on EMS-Sasuke or the fact that it did work on Itachi himself. How about the times Kakashi got caught by a Genjutsu or Danzo being caught for a certain period of time by Sasuke's illusions. All Sharingan users.



> Like two of Itachi's other, canon fights..


Only one I remember is against Orochimaru. And like I said it could happen, but you need to also acknowledge that Itachi has started a match with other opening moves as well.

He used Ninjutsu against Kakashi in P1
He used Ninjutsu against Kakashi in PII
He used Ninjutsu against B/Naruto
He used Illusion based Genjutsu on Deidara
He used Illusion based Genjutsu on Sasuke
He used illusion based Genjutsu on Naruto

So really Itachi is more likely to start with Ninjutsu (Katon or Suiton) or Illusion Based Genjutsu, than Paralytic Genjutsu.

And it's actually less likely that the match begins at Short.



> Trollkage may not be able to mold the chakra for that jutsu like that under the effects of an illusion, which is what I believe happened with Orochimaru.


Yet we've seen characters mold chakra under Itachi's other illusions just fine, and nowhere does it state that Magen Kagsui prevents someone from molding chakra; not in the manga or it's DB entry. And in-fact Orochimaru was about to use Ninjutsu Kai to try and break the Genjutsu, prompting Itachi to cut of his hand before he could finish the seal. So i'm going to have to say no.



> That's really the only explanation that makes sense.
> 
> Sasuke is faster than Mei and has the Sharingan to predict her moves. At a short distance, I don't see how raising his arm and using Chidori Spear is going to take more time than Mei making hand seals and blowing an entire stream of lava out of her mouth...


I explained very clearly why it does not make sense. You ignoring those points and just saying it's the only thing that makes sense, comes off trollish.

The rest can simply be explained by you underestimating Mei's Jutsu activation speed. 



> He would probably get his ass kicked, just like Mei.


Except he wouldn't last 10 chapters. 



> He at least has the potential to do better by flying away and preparing for Kirin.


Madara's Katons waste him or Yata Magatama.



> If the match is at short, he can use the explosion of C1 for cover to swap out with a Bomb Clone and gain distance.


He would not have time to pull the bomb out and throw it, he'd be killed by Youton or Futton before then.



> If the match is already at distance, Deidara takes to the skies and nukes. Water Dragon get's intercepted by C2, and everything else we've seen from Mei won't be hitting an evasive, flying opponent.


What does C2 do to water, waste Deidara's chakra lol?



> Turrin, you said that lasting ten chapters against Kaguya would make them god-tier, a.k.a. Kaguya's tier. She is the strongest in that tier, yes, but she's still tiered with Naruto, Sasuke, JJ Madara, and the like


Kaguya is not tiered with those guys. Sasuke and Naruto were like half the strength of Hagoromo respectively, and Hagormo is inferior to Kaguya. There's a reason it took Kakashi, Sakura, Naruto, and Sasuke to beat Kaguya.



> So using that logic, Mei lasting 10 chapters against Madara puts her on Madara's tier, right?


She didn't last 10 chapters w/ Madara anyway, so stop attacking straw mans in-order to get out of addressing the point.



> She could've been getting her ass kicked for ten chapters. I don't know why you're acting like she was fighting on par with them for an extended amount of time.


I don't care if she was getting her ass kicked for 10 chapters, the fact that she fucking survived 10 chapters w/o any serious injury is still fucking way more impressive than anything Hebi-Sasuke's done, and you know it.


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## Rocky (Sep 3, 2014)

I don't feel like going back and fourth anymore. Though I am interested in the Mei vs. Deidara, so...


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## Turrin (Sep 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't feel like going back and fourth anymore. Though I am interested in the Mei vs. Deidara, so...



That's cool, but if you got nothing left to say, can you at least understand where i'm coming from on this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 4, 2014)

The Format said:


> Oro has full knowledge and is now going to engage Itachi in a staring contest. This while Sasuke is standing around doing nothing in particular. With no game plan to speak of. K.


Orochimaru isn't equipped to fight without LOS like Kabuto, so yes, he is always in dager of getting oneshot by Tsukiyomi, or getting tricked by regular genjutsu.

I never said anything about Sasuke, but Sasuke is pretty powerless against Susano'o, and he is strictly a CQC figher. His death is imminent as soon as he goes in.



> m willing to believe he may have been able to use it back then. But this is really a dbl-edged sword, for if Oro really was engaging Itachi in combat then why would he not have used it?


Because Itachi captured him with genjutsu and cut his hand off before he could do anything ? 
Orochimaru simply realized that Itachi was stronger(self admission), that he'd die if he kept fighting and retreated. 



> Regardless, at the very least we can agree he would have improved upon since then iif he did have it.


Then Itachi improved too, by the same merit.




> This is not Oro vs. Itachi (where I know at that point Itachi was superior). This is Oro + Sasuke vs. Itachi.


How is this any relevant to what we were discussing ? You were talking about Orochimaru.




> That fact that he attempted to sneak use Fushi Tensei on him.


He never did such thing ? 




> Fair enough; but I was referring to the scenario as it happened in the manga. Itachi will killer-intent I know can do better then being murderstomped.


I don't understand what you mean by this.




> Maybe because Kishi never wanted to Itachi to be seen as someone who fights out-of-character? Instead, you take liberties with his lack of showing killer intent and assume he's going to MS blitz with no regard to his own well being.


No, its not that. 
Itachi has either fought Konoha shinobi(which he had no intention of harming) or people he dispatched in 2 panels whom he thought were not threats to him(Deidara - he was trying to recruit him and Orochimaru).



> He was an Edo.


Irrelevant.



> You're being openly disingenuous when you ignore the fact that Sasuke said "right now", at a point in time in which Oro was restricted. And furthermore, ignoring the fact that Sasuke likely didn't know what Oro was capable of at full-strength (how could he have).


How was Orochimaru restricted ? And by "right now" he meant in their current state, in other words in seperate bodies. The whole thing was about Sasuke offering his body to Orochimaru.

Sasuke lived with Orochimaru for 2.5 years, I am pretty sure his assessment about Orochimaru is better than yours.



> You tell me that, but you don't state how. How am I supposed to respond to a claim that is so lacking?


Itachi was pushing Sasuke so that Sasuke could deplete his chakra, with the intention of losing in his mind.
So again, Sasuke never pushed Itachi. It was a staged event that Itachi planned to have Orochimaru released. 

Thats why I think you should re-read the fight and the aftermath. Because you seem confused about it.

Also Hebi Sasuke is mid Kage level, not low. No idea where you got that from.


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## StickaStick (Sep 4, 2014)

@ Grimmjow 

Honestly didn't read your post. Not dismissing it (well, sort of) but I don't feel like regurgitating things right now that I know are going to be brought up again in future debates (because they always are).


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