# Fourth Raikage vs SM Jiraya (read OP).



## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

I know some people who think that SM Jiraya can react to Ei's V2 Shunshin and dodge/counterattack his V2. I disagree with that, due to Jiraya's worse SM than Naruto's and his performance against Paths of Pain, especially Asura Path.

But i am interesting - what do you think? Can SM Jiraya do to the Fourth what SM Naruto did to the Third Raikage, for example?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

Depends on the distance and knowledge.

That's my opinion, at least.

You'll have those who believe the speed between Ei & his father is negligible or they're outright equal, and vice versa- the speed between SM Jiraiya & SM Naruto is negligible or they're outright equal. It varies on person, because quite frankly Ei's dad and SM Jiraiya simply did not get much feats. 

Most don't believe the equal stuff. 

Personally, I think Ei is slightly faster than his father (possibly equal reflex speed due to increased neuron speed, Ei has slightly faster shunshin speed because I think he can really pump his chakra into shunshin better which is really the reason his super punch blitz and elusive speed are so fast), 

and SM Naruto is slightly faster than SM Jiraiya (reflex-wise I mean, I'd argue they have equal shunshin speed).

So in a 40m shunshin dash race Ei would beat his father's time. 
Reading an attack and slightly deviating body positioning or limb movement to avoid/counter it, I think they are both at the same level with that- it's just Ei would run out of the way faster if he needed to (shunshin)- but they would both know to start shunshining (if they had to) at generally the same time and they would both stationary dodge/block/counter strike at the same speed (non shunshin). 

SM Jiraiya and SM Naruto would both shunshin around the same 40 meter dash time IMO. 
SM Naruto, however, would react to faster opponents by moving his upper body or the positioning of his limbs, and arguably begin shunshining before Jiraiya because he'd see, register, and know to begin avoiding the attack faster than Jiraiya.


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## Kyu (Sep 6, 2015)

Sage Nardo(back then) couldn't physically respond to v2 RCM Ei at the distance Datclone and 3rd Raikage rushed each other. Jiraiya is an inferior Sage in all aspects barring versatility.

Ei caves Jiraiya's face in.


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## Pirao (Sep 6, 2015)

4th Raikage's speed>3rd Raikage's, SM Naruto's reactions>SM Jiraiya's IMO, since Naruto perfected SM and Jiraiya didn't. Depends on the magnitude of those differences though. I don't think Jiraiya would get lol blitzed but he would have a hard time dodging any of A's attacks.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

Jiraiya wont be able to dodge but block sure he would 
A punch didn't do shit to madara arm. Nothing suggests madara has inhuman durability . J man tanks said punch 
Gains distance and wins through the several means available to him


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## Duhul10 (Sep 6, 2015)

Jiraiya was bltizing and blindsiding the paths all day long. He has a really solid shunshin ( Managing to do it on Great distances without the enemy noticing).
Sm Jiraiya's speed is the Most underrated stat of him While The second should be His sage mode jutsus
If there is someone who does not understand the Ashura path part it is because they do not want to. jiraiya finished His job, was already happy and then Asura Path came right at His back and launched some projectiles ( mostly ). jiraiya Reacted, but The space where they clashed was too small for Dodging some bombs. Yet, Jiraiya was still able to make it out with medium injuries.
With only taijutsu and rasengan, he managed to put up a fight against all The paths at The same time. So The Issue of him not reacting to Asura ( which he did to a certain extent ) is already not one anymore
About The match-up. if A does not go V2 right of The bat he gets beaten to death. if he does, imo Jiraiya can Block His attacks and always respond with a jutsu. Or A looses simply to frog Call followed by chou Oodama rasengan.

If A is starting in V2 and te distance is 5 or maybe even 10 meters, Jiraiya would need to tank The hit, which is quite likely.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya was bltizing and blindsiding the paths all day long. He has a really solid shunshin ( Managing to do it on Great distances without the enemy noticing).
> Sm Jiraiya's speed is the Most underrated stat of him While The second should be His sage mode jutsus
> If there is someone who does not understand the Ashura path part it is because they do not want to. jiraiya finished His job, was already happy and then Asura Path came right at His back and launched some projectiles ( mostly ). jiraiya Reacted, but The space where they clashed was too small for Dodging some bombs. Yet, Jiraiya was still able to make it out with medium injuries.
> With only taijutsu and rasengan, he managed to put up a fight against all The paths at The same time. So The Issue of him not reacting to Asura ( which he did to a certain extent ) is already not one anymore
> ...



Jiraya was in his SM. Before attacking Jiraya, Asura Path told few words to him. And he survived due to his increased durability in Sage Mode.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 8, 2015)

You don't really know why he survived StarWanderer, no one does. We saw Asura speak a few words, the outside of the building explode and Jiraiya fly out with a missing arm.

The most logical explanation is he managed to partially react, but that the distance was too close for him to not be hit (and he lost an arm in the process).


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## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You don't really know why he survived StarWanderer, no one does. We saw Asura speak a few words, the outside of the building explode and Jiraiya fly out with a missing arm.
> 
> The most logical explanation is he managed to partially react, but that the distance was too close for him to not be hit (and he lost an arm in the process).



Well... Maybe.


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2015)

Ei beats the shit out of Jiraiya.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Ei beats the shit out of Jiraiya.



Jiraiya beats the shit out of A.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Jiraya was in his SM. Before attacking Jiraya, Asura Path told few words to him. And he survived due to his increased durability in Sage Mode.



He did not React from when he started talking because he was amazed and did not know who that MAN was. He Reacted only when Ashura started moving. It is actually shown in The manga. Still, it was not on panel and there is a possibility that not only Ashura attacked him there .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

Jiraiya should be able to deal with A's V1, and by "deal with" I mean react and get out of the way or defend himself. But I also don't think that is something he can do on a consistent basis and he'd lose eventually if he tried to duke it out with A in CQC. A is faster, more durable and has more striking power.

We've seen how A crushed someone like Juugo in full CS2 state, which grants him fuckloads more durability than SM grants the user. So if A lands a hit, it is going to be fatal.

V2 is a completely different scenario. A simply runs through Jiraiya, leaving behind a pile a of goo of shit and blood.


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya beats the shit out of A.



He doesn't have the feats to do so.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> He doesn't have the feats to do so.



He does


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya should be able to deal with A's V1, and by "deal with" I mean react and get out of the way or defend himself. But I also don't think that is something he can do on a consistent basis and he'd lose eventually if he tried to duke it out with A in CQC. A is faster, more durable and has more striking power.
> 
> We've seen how A crushed someone like Juugo in full CS2 state, which grants him fuckloads more durability than SM grants the user. So if A lands a hit, it is going to be fatal.
> 
> V2 is a completely different scenario. A simply runs through Jiraiya, leaving behind a pile a of goo of shit and blood.



His punch ain't doing shit to SM Jiraiya. The man tanked with 0 damage a full power blow of a boss summon.  WHAT? CS2 gives more durability tha sm ? Since when ? Jiraiya takes a tea and lets A hit him for a while. Then he gives A the butt kick of his life.

KCM naruto blocked the punch. B blocked the punch while in base and tanked an elbow with minor injuries and we already know bee's base lariat is better than V1 ( or V2 ) A's.


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## Bonly (Sep 8, 2015)

Depending on the distance Jiraiya might be able to react and put up a guard or something


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> His punch ain't doing shit to SM Jiraiya.


By shit if you mean turn him into paste, then I agree.



> The man tanked with 0 damage a full power blow of a boss summon


Irrelevant.

. 





> WHAT? CS2 gives more durability tha sm ? Since when ?


Since CS2 users had better durability feats than anything a SM user has shown.



> Jiraiya takes a tea and lets A hit him for a while. Then he gives A the butt kick of his life.


Delusion at its finest.
Jiraiya can't take hits from his V1, let alone his V2. 
A punched a hole through multiple layers of CS2 armor in V1. The same armor Juugo used to casually deflect Zabuza's sword. Jiraiya dies in one hit.



> KCM naruto blocked the punch.


Naruto blocked a momentumless punch and was still swung back. And oh, A wasn't trying to kill him.
And KCM Naruto can stop swords with his shroud, his durability is on a completely different ballpark compared to Jiraiya's.



> B blocked the punch while in base and tanked an elbow with minor injuries and we already know bee's base lariat is better than V1 ( or V2 ) A's.


What are you implying ? B's feats transfer to Jiraiya ? How ? Why ?


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

B is not superior to a sage in durability. You are just a hater as you always were, so I am not taking you seriously.
It is not irrelevant because the summon made more damage to the environment than 100 of A's punch would ever do. CS2 is inferior to sage mode. Way inferior through feats and portrayal. Still kcm naruto blocked a serious punch. from v1 A with 0 injuries. B tanked a V1 welbow with really minor injuries. You could stop responding to my posts because you don't have my interest.You have lost another debate


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

He has better feats, so yes, he actually is.

A's punch's surface area is alot smaller, so its envriomental damage would be smaller than the summon, logically. That summon is featless and so far failed to hurt anybody other than a wall. 

CS2 modifies the exterior of the body and turns it into something else, it is a different power up. It might be overall weaker, that doesn't mean it is weaker in every aspect. Show me a sage mode user tanking a sword casually.

A was simply trying to stop Naruto from passing through, not kill him. Also you've ignored the fact that KCM Naruto is much more durable than SM Jiraiya. 

Repeating this fanfiction over and over again won't make it any more valid. Just saying.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 8, 2015)

MS Sasuke actually was able to make a Amaterasu barrier before V2 Ei managed to land a hit on him. And said Sasuke was not yet perfect with his eyes.

SM Jiraiya got much more experience with his powerup than Sasuke and sage perception powers allowed guys like Naruto and Kabuto to avoid very fast attacks.

Even if Jiraiya cannot dodge said shunshin he still would be able to block said hit. And with SM durability would emerge relatively unharmed IMO.

So I do not see V2 Ei as instant blitzin winner unless he faces KCM Naruto or Minato.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He has better feats, so yes, he actually is.
> 
> A's punch's surface area is alot smaller, so its envriomental damage would be smaller than the summon, logically. That summon is featless and so far failed to hurt anybody other than a wall.
> 
> ...



You are repeating fanfiction ). Give me durability feats of base bee that can compare to that of being literally smashed by big summon and laughing at it afterwards. Jiraiya tanks the hit with 0 injury.


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## Matty (Sep 8, 2015)

Jiraiya is way more versatile. He takes it mid-high dif


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## Hachibi (Sep 8, 2015)

Depends on the distance.


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Jiraiya is way more versatile. He takes it mid-high dif



Being more versatile doesn't help when you get your head punched off.


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## Matty (Sep 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Being more versatile doesn't help when you get your head punched off.



True, I just don't see him getting his head punched off. He is going to tank it if he can't dodge and after the initial attack he gets separation and goes to work.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Being more versatile doesn't help when you get your head punched off.



Like A ever did this to anybody )


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## Ekkologix (Sep 8, 2015)

Jiraya underestimated af.

He should be able to rasengan his way through.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 8, 2015)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Jiraya underestimated af.
> 
> He should be able to rasengan his way through.



He is underestimated in every thread. Especially when he starts in sm.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2015)

If Madara can block V2 Ā's punch without much injury, if any at all, Sage Jiraiya could take a knock or two. No one's getting their head punched off, lol.


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## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2015)

manga made it clear that naruto needed KCM in order to dodge Ei's fastest punch.  Naruto in SM wouldn't have been able to do it, therefore someone who's suppose to be inferior to Naruto's SM shouldn't be able to do it either.  

However, if this is just a matchup between SM jiraiya and Ei where jiraiya starts off with SM, Jiraiya should handily win this considering he has a bunch of ways of countering Ei's speed.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> manga made it clear that naruto needed KCM in order to dodge Ei's fastest punch.  Naruto in SM wouldn't have been able to do it, therefore someone who's suppose to be inferior to Naruto's SM shouldn't be able to do it either.
> 
> However, if this is just a matchup between SM jiraiya and Ei where jiraiya starts off with SM, Jiraiya should handily win this considering he has a bunch of ways of countering Ei's speed.



SM Naruto dodged in the last moment the best and at full speed attack in 3rd raikage's arsenal.
That SM Naruto is not way superior to Jiraiya in sm. He did not get any training since pain arc. So he should have the same phisical capabilities as then. Jiraiya is 2 tiers faster than that base Naruto. There is no indication that with his SM, Naruto surpasses both the handicap in base and Jiraiya's boost.
Still, the distance is important for dodging or not. But even if Jiraiya cannot dodge, he can simply tank it.


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## Ghost (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If Madara can block V2 Ā's punch without much injury, if any at all, Sage Jiraiya could take a knock or two. No one's getting their head punched off, lol.



Inconsistencies, what are they? Or Madara is just more durable than Jiraiya.

Ei drilled right through Juugo. A hit above waist kill Jiraiya.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

If he blocks with both arms it's not killing him, ghostcrawler. 

You know the strength and durability enhancement that Sage Mode provides, Madara blocked it without injury- why are you so against the possibility of Sage Mode Jiraiya being capable of it?

It's not like Ei has Tsunade's power. KCM Naruto and Base Killer Bee guarded against his punch, albeit it wasn't his fastest one- they weren't hurt by it.

Assuming his fastest one is somewhat more powerful (due to speed increasing the power), it's not enough to kill Jiraiya, because his slightly slower ones didn't even hurt Naruto or Bee, breaking his arms or dislocating his shoulders is all I'm willing to accept.

Broken arms or dislocated shoulders for a Sage isn't that big of a deal, as long as he can still make seals Jiraiya will still be dangerous. Not to mention the fact he got stabbed in his remaining arm (other one was already taken off) and still molded chakra through it (to put marks on Pa). Even if he loses one of his arms, he's still dangerous- because he managed to still battle all the paths and get Animal Path into his barrier- killing it.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

While in base, he tanked a punch from Tsunade which sent him 100 meters away and it did not bring him to the merge of death. In base he tanked a hit from kn4 Naruto which ripped Orochimaru apart. He has a 5 in stamina.  These are things that should tell how much he can tank in base. Not even mentioning SM. Not even mentioning that he can use hari jizo to troll everything raikage throws at him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

Raikage gives him a haircut.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage gives him a haircut.



And Jiraiya won't even pay for the haircut. He will just give the raikage the ass-wooping of his life because of the said ugly haircut.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> And Jiraiya won't even pay for the haircut. He will just give the raikage the ass-wooping of his life because of the said ugly haircut.



It will be like an electric hair clipper going through a pomeranian at lightning speed. 
It will be fast and merciless.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It will be like an electric hair clipper going through a pomeranian at lightning speed.
> It will be fast and merciless.



 This is funny actually. 0 arguments, but funny.


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> In base he tanked a hit from kn4 Naruto which ripped Orochimaru apart.



Lolno. He got a scar from it. That's not tanking at all.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Lolno. He got a scar from it. That's not tanking at all.



It is, after seeing what it did to Orochimaru. Why didn't Jiraiya's body got ripped in two parts ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> It is, after seeing what it did to Orochimaru. Why didn't Jiraiya's body got ripped in two parts ?



How do you know he got hit the exact same way ?
It was completely off panel.


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> It is, after seeing what it did to Orochimaru. Why didn't Jiraiya's body got ripped in two parts ?



Do you know what tanking is?

Plus, we don't even know what happenned


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## ~M~ (Sep 9, 2015)

Tanking means you withstand the hit it doesn't mean you're unscathed


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Agreed, tanking can mean you can sustain some damage as long as you come out still readily able to fight.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Tanking means you withstand the hit it doesn't mean you're unscathed



exactly.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> In most cases it means you survive the attack.



well, he practically said the same thing.
You need to survive the hit. Not necesarily unschated


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## ~M~ (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> In most cases it means you survive the attack and continue fighting.
> 
> Tanks don't withstand damage when bullets are fired at it, it leaves bullet holes.



That's what I said, withstand means to keep going, unscathed would mean the tank deflects the bullet without so much as scratching the paint which is stupid and impossible


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How do you know he got hit the exact same way ?
> It was completely off panel.


How else could he get hit ? THe rage was the same, because the beast was uncontrolable. It hit him with a claw. The scar shows the same thing.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

em senpai said:


> That's what I said, withstand means to keep going, unscathed would mean the tank deflects the bullet without so much as scratching the paint which is stupid and impossible


I know, I read it wrong initially. 

I edited it seconds later, sorry em senpai


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ANd as I said. It is not only that. He was able to tank a hit from rage Tsunade which sent him 100 meters away.


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> ANd as I said. It is not only that. He was able to tank a hit from rage Tsunade which sent him 100 meters away.



>Implying Tsunade would seriously want to kill him.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Implying Tsunade would seriously want to kill him.



>implying 100m means she wanted to just tickle him


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> >implying 100m means she wanted to just tickle him



>Implying 100m mean shit.


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## ARGUS (Sep 9, 2015)

The match up aside

V2 ay definitely blitzes jiriaya 
There is no way jiriaya could react to his speed just how MS sasuke had no chance in doing so 

Jiriaya is slower than even SM nAruto who struggled against blind madaras inferior shunshin 
Ay blitzes and due to that Jiriaya is not blocking his hits if he can't even mentally react let alone physically


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Implying 100m mean shit.



Implying Tsunade Has ever thrown somebody for 100 meters and that person left the place with minor -medium injuries. ( other than Jiraiya )


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> The match up aside
> 
> V2 ay definitely blitzes jiriaya
> There is no way jiriaya could react to his speed just how MS sasuke had no chance in doing so
> ...



Jiraiya is slower than sm naruto. Since when ? His reactions are probably slower, but not by far .
MS Sasuke is inferior to SM Jiraiya in speed.


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Implying Tsunade Has ever thrown somebody for 100 meters and that person left the place with minor -medium injuries. ( other than Jiraiya )



And you said that like she was going to kill him when that isn't close to the truth.

Plus I don't remember the 100 meters thing.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> And you said that like she was going to kill him when that isn't close to the truth.
> 
> Plus I don't remember the 100 meters thing.



To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor



Oh.
Maybe that was that time he almost died as well


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Oh.
> Maybe that was that time he almost died as well



nope. He said he took a beating back then. A punch does not mean a beating. HE mentioned that he went to the verge of death two times in his life. with KN4 and when he got beat up by tsunade. A single punch could not break six ribs,2 arms, rupture some organs.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Inconsistencies, what are they? Or Madara is just more durable than Jiraiya.
> 
> Ei drilled right through Juugo. A hit above waist kill Jiraiya.



Do you know what inconsistencies are? What gives you reason to label Madara shrugging off a V2 Ā hit as inconsistent? Do you have panels that contradict his ability to do so?

Assuming Jūgo is more durable that Sage Jiraiya - what? The latter took a boss summon charge that plowed a trench many times the size of Liger Bomb. Jūgo has nothing that even remotely approaches that.

The way I see it, V1 Ā is on the same level as Jiraiya physically; they can duke it out with each other without either getting any headway. If Ā lands a Lightning Horizontal Chop, Jiraiya's losing limbs, and is on his way towards losing. But if Jiraiya plays it smart (which he usually does, especially with two Sages to help out), he can block line-of-vision and use a ton of options to corner and defeat Ā.

It really depends how seriously Ā takes the fight. A V2 punch would stun Jiraiya a fair amount, but the Sages can cover for any momentary lapses. If Ā opts for a V2 Horizontal Chop, Jiraiya's done for. But anything below that, Jiraiya is going to go all out to avoid Ā's speed and the latter is way too stubborn and headstrong to figure it out before he gets blindsided by a Fūton ninjutsu whilst trying to navigate out of a senjutsu-enhanced Dust Cloud.


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> A single punch could not break six ribs,2 arms, rupture some organs.



A punch from Tsunade can do that if it's landed in the right spot tho.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 9, 2015)

SM Jiraiya is fast enough to avoid being blitzed, even if he can't compete with the Raikage in taijutsu. He has boss toads to divert the Raikage's attention, and Shimahas a Dust Cloud potent enough to completely blind the Raikage. Jiraiya should be able to stall him long enough to at least trap him in a Yomi Numa or for Fukasaku and Shima to paralyse him with Senpō: Kawazu Naki, or perhaps even both at once. 

Once Ei is trapped, he gets melted with a Goemon. Ma and Pa may even have prepped a Frog Song by then, so Ei could die by genjutsu too.

Either way, Jiraiya wins.​​


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## Zef (Sep 9, 2015)

Raikage is vastly faster, but Jiraiya's variety & arsenal  stomps on A's.

I think I'll actually go with Jiraiya here assuming Raikage doesn't automatically go into V1 or V2.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> SM Jiraiya is fast enough to avoid being blitzed​​



Is he?

Forgive me if I missed a feat somewhere along the line, but I don't recall Jiraiya possessing any defenses quick enough to get him out of a situation like this:



...or this:


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is he?
> 
> Forgive me if I missed a feat somewhere along the line, but I don't recall Jiraiya possessing any defenses quick enough to get him out of a situation like this:
> 
> ...



For the most part, yeah. Admittedly, he is probably going to get hit by one or two attacks, but with sufficient durability to take the damage and live, that will hardly matter. What I meant, and should have specified, is that Jiraiya isn't going to be horribly out-matched in speed to the point that he's getting hit every single time Ei engages him.

He's constantly sensing in Sage Mode, giving him better anticipatory skills than Base Minato did in that situation. He had enough speed to blitz Human Path, who was a fast opponent too. And if SM Naruto's speed against Pein was anything to go by, Jiraiya can't be far behind him in speed (especially considering Jiraiya was already faster than Naruto outside of Sage Mode)​​


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2015)

Anticipation isn't the issue here. A told KCM Naruto that he was about to blitz in, and Naruto didn't fare any better than Minato. A's v2 flicker is rather telegraphed by the amplification of his shroud anyway.

Sage Mode's enhanced perception is the only potential problem I see A facing, but I don't think Jiraiya's body can do anything in response to v2 even if he does perceive it in slow-mo. Sasuke has super perception too, but Raikage dropped a deuce on it and Sasuke was forced to rely on Kagutsuchi & Susano'o.

Jiraiya's durability is the least of A's concerns. If v2 fist doesn't clean J-man's clock outright, he's probably going to catch a lightning chop or leg drop soon thereafter and that'll be that. Jiraiya has no Susano'o (or comparable defense) to protect him from A's follow up.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

If the first hit doesn't take out Jiraiya (it won't if Ā vs Madara and Yak vs. Jiraiya is anything to go by), Ā's fighting a losing battle, tactically. Jiraiya is going to extra wary of Ā and use his versatility to avoid being blitzed as much as possible. Ma's Dust Cloud enhanced with Pa's Fūton is going to leave Ā a complete  _sitting duck_, especially against sensing Sages.

Ā never starts out with Lightning Horizontal Chop (which is the only way to kill Jiraiya in one hit), so it's almost guaranteed Jiraiya is going to be anticipating his speed at some point. From there, he can find ways around it.

I give this 60/40 in favour of Jiraiya. Mainly because Ā doesn't really use his Lightning Horizontal, let alone start out with it, very often.

These two fighters, portrayal-wise, are on the same level. Mid-level Kage nearing the very lowest of high-Kage tier, but not quite there yet.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Anticipation isn't the issue here. A told KCM Naruto that he was about to blitz in, and Naruto didn't fare any better than Minato. A's v2 flicker is rather telegraphed by the amplification of his shroud anyway.
> 
> Sage Mode's enhanced perception is the only potential problem I see A facing, but I don't think Jiraiya's body can do anything in response to v2 even if he does perceive it in slow-mo. Sasuke has super perception too, but Raikage dropped a deuce on it and Sasuke was forced to rely on Kagutsuchi & Susano'o.
> 
> Jiraiya's durability is the least of A's concerns. If v2 fist doesn't clean J-man's clock outright, he's probably going to catch a lightning chop or leg drop soon thereafter and that'll be that. Jiraiya has no Susano'o (or comparable defense) to protect him from A's follow up.



First of all , with Minato, A was in his 30s or so, so phisically, he was better back then. I do not know if the Minato-kcm naruto are good feats for A. Those panels actually show that Minato and Naruto are really, really fast in reacting, not that A is close to unavoidable. MS Sasuke has no feats of being phisically reactive  but still was able to form a defense against A.

At least, we can agree that V1 is not an issue.
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor

V2:
Well, Sasuke managed to use kagutsuchi before V2 A finished his movement.
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor
And Gaara managed to interfere with the sand too.
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

It's not like Ā is a fucking geezer like Hiruzen; I don't think he got weaker. Similarly, I don't think Jiraiya got weaker from when he battled in the 3rd Great Shinobi World War. Otherwise, Hanzo would've performed better against Pain.

Secondly, will people not realize that Sasuke _enacted that Susanoo/Amaterasu defense against Ā out of pure luck?_ He didn't react to Ā and apply Enton, he threw it on as soon as he realized he couldn't follow his movements and did a last-resort option for defense.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> It's not like Ā is a fucking geezer like Hiruzen; I don't think he got weaker. Similarly, I don't think Jiraiya got weaker from when he battled in the 3rd Great Shinobi World War. Otherwise, Hanzo would've performed better against Pain.
> 
> Secondly, will people not realize that Sasuke _enacted that Susanoo/Amaterasu defense against Ā out of pure luck?_ He didn't react to Ā and apply Enton, he threw it on as soon as he realized he couldn't follow his movements and did a last-resort option for defense.



There were other reasons Hanzo did not perform well against Pain. I sincerely do not believe that 20s speed is equal to 50s speed. 
The thing is two jutsus were used before A could finish his move in V2 ( albeit one is not really a jutsu).


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> There were other reasons Hanzo did not perform well against Pain. I sincerely do not believe that 20s speed is equal to 50s speed.



That's cool.

Not really relevant in Ā's case considering he looks even bigger at 50 than 30. As a wise person once said, black don't crack.



> The thing is two jutsus were used before A could finish his move in V2 ( albeit one is not really a jutsu).



Two? Susanoo was already active.

I'm not really sure what your point is. Sasuke couldn't follow Ā's speed with his eyes, that's all that matters when it comes to Ā's speed. That was the very definition of a blitz.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

when he tried to use a legdrop on him. Sasuke managed to use kagutsuchi and after that Gaara used his sand. Both before A finished his move


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Those panels actually show that Minato and Naruto are really, really fast in reacting, not that A is close to unavoidable.



The reason that those panels show that Naruto & Minato are "really, really fast at reacting" is _because_ A is close to unavoidable.  



Duhul10 said:


> MS Sasuke has no feats of being phisically reactive  but still was able to form a defense against A.



That defense wasn't physical.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> when he tried to use a legdrop on him. Sasuke managed to use kagutsuchi and after that Gaara used his sand. Both before A finished his move



That's not 'V2', however. 'V2' refers to when Ā builds enough chakra for an ultra _Shunshin_. Jumping and falling is not Shunshin, it's plain ol' speed of gravity hence why Gaara and Sasuke could react to it.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> That's not 'V2', however. 'V2' refers to when Ā builds enough chakra for an ultra _Shunshin_. Jumping and falling is not Shunshin, it's plain ol' speed of gravity hence why Gaara and Sasuke could react to it.



He was in V2. His hair is spiked. I was talking about the speed of his hit and that is really possible to react.
He went V2 Right here, before the legdrop 
To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He was in V2. His hair is spiked. I was talking about the speed of his hit and that is really possible to react.
> He went V2 Right here, before the legdrop
> To be able to touch me even when I'm clad in Raiton armor



Whether or not his hair is spiked is _irrelevant_, dude. The whole function of Guillotine Drop is Ā falling and using an axe kick. Ask yourself, how would a V2 Shunshin come in play when doing that? If Ā used V2 Shunshin as the jump for Guillotine Drop he would've went straight through the ceiling.

He obviously isn't going his max speed when he hops five feet in the air for an axe kick. 

The fact that this is even being argued, Christ...

Ā is literally as fast as any scrub who jumps in the air to replicate what he did. It's all gravity. So what if Sasuke reacted to it? Iruka could have.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Whether or not his hair is spiked is _irrelevant_, dude. The whole function of Guillotine Drop is Ā falling and using an axe kick. Ask yourself, how would a V2 Shunshin come in play when doing that? If Ā used V2 Shunshin as the jump for Guillotine Drop he would've went straight through the ceiling.
> 
> He obviously isn't going his max speed when he hops five feet in the air for an axe kick.
> 
> ...



Ok so you agree that one of his major attacks is slow even in V2. At least we reached a point.
Still, when he gave Sasuke a karate chop, Sasuke was able to react with kagutsuchi before he finished the hit.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Ok so you agree that one of his major attacks is slow even in V2. At least we reached a point.



Sure? You're not helping your argument with that 'point'. To be honest, Guillotine Drop is a shit move; it relies only on Ā's leg power, and completely contradicts his style of speed enhancing power. And a wittle bit of Gaara's sand blocked it like nothing.

By comparison, his dad literally muscled his way out of Gaara's Sand Mom prisons.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Sure? You're not helping your argument with that 'point'. To be honest, Guillotine Drop is a shit move; it relies only on Ā's leg power, and completely contradicts his style of speed enhancing power. And a wittle bit of Gaara's sand blocked it like nothing.
> 
> By comparison, his dad literally muscled his way out of Gaara's Sand Mom prisons.



No it is not helping. What is helping is the fact that MS Sasuke managed to react to V2 A.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> No it is not helping. What is helping is the fact that MS Sasuke managed to react to V2 A.



He reacted to _Ā jumping in the air_.

You're being intentionally misleading if you're equating the two. Sasuke can't react to V2 Ā. No one refers to V2 Ā as doing Guillotine Drop, it refers to his Shunshin. 

Furthermore, how is Sasuke 'reacting' to V2 Ā helping your argument again?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> How else could he get hit ? THe rage was the same, because the beast was uncontrolable. It hit him with a claw. The scar shows the same thing.



It could be a grazing hit or anything. You are pretty much writing fanfiction here. 

Anything that can rip Orochimaru in half will do the same thing to Jiraiya, probably worse, considering Orochimaru is more durable than him.



Duhul10 said:


> first scan



Its a figure of speech


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It could be a grazing hit or anything. You are pretty much writing fanfiction here.
> 
> Anything that can rip Orochimaru in half will do the same thing to Jiraiya, probably worse, considering Orochimaru is more durable than him.



I hope you mean just Base Jiraiya here, lol.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 10, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He reacted to _Ā jumping in the air_.
> 
> You're being intentionally misleading if you're equating the two. Sasuke can't react to V2 Ā. No one refers to V2 Ā as doing Guillotine Drop, it refers to his Shunshin.
> 
> Furthermore, how is Sasuke 'reacting' to V2 Ā helping your argument again?



The moment raikage hit him through Kagutsuchi. Sasuke Reacted before A finished His karate chop
So reacting to A is anything but imposibile.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 10, 2015)

Grimmjow, all we know is that Jiraiya got hit by kn4 and tanked The hit ( w/ serious injuries though ) , while Orochimaru's body got ripped in two parts after Being hit. Jiraiya is a freaking tank in base. Having a 5 means something, adding sage mode to that . No, Raikage's hit will not give him more than minimum injuries.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Grimmjow, all we know is that Jiraiya got hit by kn4 and tanked The hit ( w/ serious injuries though ) , while Orochimaru's body got ripped in two parts after Being hit. Jiraiya is a freaking tank in base. Having a 5 means something, adding sage mode to that . No, Raikage's hit will not give him more than minimum injuries.



Sustaining serious injuries isn't tanking.

Also like I said, it was offpanel. There is no way to know if he was hit the same way Orochimaru was. 
Looking @the wound, it was just a grazing hit though.



ATastyMuffin said:


> I hope you mean just Base Jiraiya here, lol.



Jiraiya has yet to take Tsunade's punch to his face and get up without any serious injuries right after. In base or SM.


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## ARGUS (Sep 10, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> *Jiraiya is slower than sm naruto. Since when ? *


 -- Since SM naruto blitzed Asura Path, 
 -- Since SM naruto was able to evade the raikages nukite point blank and coordinate his rasengan to force that same nukite on the raikages chest, 



> *
> His reactions are probably slower, but not by far* .


Uhh that literally makes no sense, 
if naruto can move faster than jiraiya, then he also reacts faster than him 
his SM is superior, his reactions and superior and his speed is superior 



> MS Sasuke is inferior to SM Jiraiya in speed.


and what proof do you have of this? 

not that it matters since we are talking about V2 Ay who blitzed someone with MS precog with no reaction whatsoever

and this is the same guy whose shunshin is above Blind Madaras, was able to evade amaterasu point blank, and his speed was fast enough to pressure minato, forcing him to use FTG on the very last millisecond 

so NO, jiraiya gets blitzed if hes at a certain distance, 

*P.S - your puny negs dont mean jack shit, 
you have negged me atleast 4 times now, all of them in threads where i think jiraiya loses, 
lol whatta fanboy *


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## Duhul10 (Sep 10, 2015)

Jiraiya was blitzing the paths of pain all the way. SM Naruto blitzing a non-attentive Ashura, who already dashed at Tsunade, from the above is not a great feat. 
Naruto avoided the raikage beccause of sensing. Which Jiraiya has 
I was saying that Jiraiya's reactions should be a little slower, not the other way around. Though your other point, is fanfic. It was never mentioned or implied in some way that Naruto's SM gave him better phisical capacity that it did to Jiraiya. Especially when base  Jiraiya shits on Base Naruto ( at that point of course ) when it comes to everything.
Jiraiya was blitzing and blindsiding fast opponents like the paths of pain. Who did Sasuke blitz ?
I agree that he gets blitzed at a certaind distance. I did not doubted that. Still, he would surely tank that hit.
I neg you when I see you talking bullshit, so you should not be angry.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Anticipation isn't the issue here. A told KCM Naruto that he was about to blitz in, and Naruto didn't fare any better than Minato. A's v2 flicker is rather telegraphed by the amplification of his shroud anyway.
> 
> Sage Mode's enhanced perception is the only potential problem I see A facing, but I don't think Jiraiya's body can do anything in response to v2 even if he does perceive it in slow-mo. Sasuke has super perception too, but Raikage dropped a deuce on it and Sasuke was forced to rely on Kagutsuchi & Susano'o.
> 
> Jiraiya's durability is the least of A's concerns. If v2 fist doesn't clean J-man's clock outright, he's probably going to catch a lightning chop or leg drop soon thereafter and that'll be that. Jiraiya has no Susano'o (or comparable defense) to protect him from A's follow up.



SM Jiraiya got hit by Pein's giant Rhino and came out without a scratch to show for it [1] His resilience is pretty high too - he was still able to fight without an arm. I'd say he's able to take one or two of Ei's attacks without being totally crippled, especially considering not all of Ei's attacks are strong enough to make giant craters in the ground. 

I think SM Jiraiya has better movement speed that Minato does (outside of Shunshin), so if he can see Ei's attack coming, he might be able to at least block. 

Also, V2 isn't something Ei seems to go into off the bat - presumably because of how much chakra it uses up. He didn't do it against Sasuke, or Naruto, or even against Madara. He only went into that mode once he learned that his opponents were capable of defending themselves.

But as soon as Jiraiya sees how fast Ei is, he might just cloud his vision with a Dust Cloud, or divert his attention with a couple of boss summons. At which point, Jiraiya has the upper-hand.​​


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> SM Jiraiya got hit by Pein's giant Rhino and came out without a scratch to show for it [1] His resilience is pretty high too - he was still able to fight without an arm. I'd say he's able to take one or two of Ei's attacks without being totally crippled, especially considering not all of Ei's attacks are strong enough to make giant craters in the ground.



I never really said that Jiraiya was definitely dying to a single punch. The problem is getting hit while he's down. [1][2]



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think SM Jiraiya has better movement speed that Minato does (outside of Shunshin), so if he can see Ei's attack coming, he might be able to at least block.



I don't really know if Sage Jiraiya moves _faster_ than Minato. He just perceives things better. Sage Mode is another form of super perception. I tend to picture that as "time slowing down," giving someone more time to react to something:



You still need the actual body speed to dodge or block what you're perceiving though, and SM's raw, physical body speed boost isn't _that _impressive. The Sharingan does basically the same thing as Sage Mode, and Sasuke was helpless against v2 A. I'm not saying that it's impossible for Jiraiya to get his arms up, but I really don't see a reason that he's going to do better than Sasuke (who could barley turn his head).



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Also, V2 isn't something Ei seems to go into off the bat...
> 
> But as soon as Jiraiya sees how fast Ei is, he might just...



I'm only really debating you on how Jiraiya would fair against a v2 blitz. Who wins the fight depends on the conditions, as is the case with most Raikage fights.


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## Yoko (Sep 10, 2015)

Main issue is that even if we grant SM Jiraiya the ability to barely react to a V2 Raikage (which in of itself I'm reluctant to do because of the latter's performance against MS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and Minato), you've still got the problem of the power / Raiton behind the Raikage's attack.  

His chops are pseudo Chidoris in their own right - he cut through the Hachibi's horn with a chop.  Heck, he cut through his _own arm_ with a chop too . . . I don't think blocking will minimize the damage from an attack like that.  At _best_, I see Jiraiya surviving the first attack, losing an arm (or both), and dying to the follow up attack.


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2015)

The punches themselves are normal, despite them being thrown by a a guy wearing lightning. The chops are the strikes more akin to Raikiri, or any "cutting" attack. Jiraiya won't be blocking those.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 11, 2015)

If Base B could survive an elbow or kcm's arms were not broken by his punch, it will not be an issue for Jiraiya to tank some hits. I agree though that at a certain number of punches he will get phisically tired and injured, but at the same time anything in Jiraiya's arsenal in sm can end raikage. IMO even frog kata is an issue for Raikage even though he is faster. Or was he in V1 then ?


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 11, 2015)

If you give Jiraiya, the databook sage sensing then yeah, Jiraiya basically shits all over the Raikage. The only thing holding Jiraiya back against Raikage was the inability to react but with his senjutsu-increased strength and reaction times, Jiraiya wouldn't have to worry about not having enough power.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I never really said that Jiraiya was definitely dying to a single punch. The problem is getting hit while he's down. [1][2]



SM Jiraiya was hit by that Rhino and didn't even seem to lose his footing, though. The same thing happened when Asura Path blew his arm off [1]. Unless Ei grabs him and uses a Liger Bomb, I doubt Jiraiya will be physically defenceless. Also, if Ei falls down on him with a drop-kick or a chop, he falls at the rate of gravity, and therefore more slowly than he would if he just used the Shunshin. 



> I don't really know if Sage Jiraiya moves _faster_ than Minato. He just perceives things better. Sage Mode is another form of super perception. I tend to picture that as "time slowing down," giving someone more time to react to something:



I might be wrong, but I don't remember Minato's base movement speed being any more than SM Jiraiya's. 



> You still need the actual body speed to dodge or block what you're perceiving though, and SM's raw, physical body speed boost isn't _that _impressive. The Sharingan does basically the same thing as Sage Mode, and Sasuke was helpless against v2 A. I'm not saying that it's impossible for Jiraiya to get his arms up, but I really don't see a reason that he's going to do better than Sasuke (who could barley turn his head).



Sage Mode gives a very significant speed advantage. I think its more likely he'll get his arms up because he's faster than Sasuke was (outside of Shunshin, at least).​​


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> SM Jiraiya was hit by that Rhino and didn't even seem to lose his footing, though. The same thing happened when Asura Path blew his arm off [1]. Unless Ei grabs him and uses a Liger Bomb, I doubt Jiraiya will be physically defenceless.



I don't know how you're reaching these conclusions. If Jiraiya gets hit, he's going to go flying into the ground just like SM Naruto did when he was hit by Madara. He's "defenseless" from there because he can't block a lightning chop, and he probably can't block the leg drop either if it was truly a serious threat to Sasuke.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I might be wrong, but I don't remember Minato's base movement speed being any more than SM Jiraiya's.



There's not much to compare the two, but Minato wins hype. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sage Mode gives a very significant speed advantage. I think its more likely he'll get his arms up because he's faster than Sasuke was



Links to back up your points? Sages don't move significantly faster in my eyes. It just looks that way because their perception goes through the roof (think 3-Tome Sasuke vs. KN0).

I have Sasuke & Sage Naruto on the same level of body speed since their best feats (dodging Elbow & dodging Nukite) are basically the same thing. Sage Jiraiya's body speed is probably comparable to theirs.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is he?
> 
> Forgive me if I missed a feat somewhere along the line, but I don't recall Jiraiya possessing any defenses quick enough to get him out of a situation like this:
> 
> ...



If you give him the sage sensing, which is in the databooks, he should be able to given that without senjutsu, he's in the same speed tier as MS Sasuke (4.5). You give him senjutsu on top of that, he'll be able to dodge the raikage.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Summit Sasuke is not a 4.5. His speed is unknown.

I don't really think there's much of a difference between SM Jiraiya & Sasuke when it comes to movement speed, and imo Sasuke has better feats. They both have enhanced perception.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Summit Sasuke is not a 4.5. His speed is unknown.
> 
> I don't really think there's much of a difference between SM Jiraiya & Sasuke when it comes to movement speed, and imo Sasuke has better feats. They both have enhanced perception.



SM Jiraiya's Sage-Sensing should give him enough of a boost to dodge on his own. Any of the other things like counter-attacking, keeping pace and etc, anyone else can figure that out. Just think about the massive gap it closed for Base Naruto when he entered SM, he collectively jumped a full tier in speed (3.5 > 4.5) minimum.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> SM Jiraiya's Sage-Sensing should give him enough of a boost to dodge on his own.



Sage Sensing does not boost speed. 

Their enhanced perceptual ability (which is what I think you are actually talking about here) gives them more time to react (like the Sharingan), but that doesn't actually boost body speed either (like the Sharingan).



Ryuzaki said:


> ]Just think about the massive gap it closed for Base Naruto when he entered SM, he collectively jumped a full tier in speed (3.5 > 4.5) minimum.



Naruto's speed during the Pain & War arcs is unknown too. I think the Databook stats are from around the Itachi fight.

By their actual _showings_, SM Naruto, SM Jiraiya, and MS Sasuke aren't noticeably different in movement speed.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sage Sensing does not boost speed.
> 
> Their enhanced perceptual ability (which is what I think you are actually talking about here) gives them more time to react (like the Sharingan), but that doesn't actually boost body speed either (like the Sharingan).


The difference is sensing increases reaction times but using senjutsu itself increases all aspects of the physical body. In Jiraiya/Naruto's case they can't use one without the other, so their total body speed and reaction times get enhanced.

Whereas using the sharingan only enhances reaction time for Sasuke, Naruto gets a double boost.



Rocky said:


> Naruto's speed during the Pain & War arcs is unknown too. I think the Databook stats are from around the Itachi fight.
> 
> By their actual _showings_, SM Naruto, SM Jiraiya, and MS Sasuke aren't noticeably different in movement speed.



SM Jiraiya ≥ 5.0
SM Naruto ≥ 4.5
MS Sasuke ≥ 4.5

That's essentially how I saw the tiers evolve Sasuke was probably faster in his tier but he wasn't roof tier since a Base Bee basically beat the shit out of him, even with the sharingan.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2015)

Gotta' remember Sasuke was stated to be still injured from his fight with Itachi against Bee, and had also lost the power-up of the White Snake enhancements and the Curse Seal boosts as well.

People don't generally acknowledge it, but early MS Sasuke was _significantly_ slower than Hebi Sasuke, which mixed poorly with his destabilized brain and sudden lack of caution or foresight.

IMO Hebi Sasuke would have done much, much better against Killer Bee, not only because his arsenal was vastly superior, but more importantly, because he _fought smart_ against Deidara and Itachi.

And against A, I've debated it. We've seen CS2 Sasuke survive tremendous explosions and -making punches before, and IMO he could break A's hold with something like this.

I also think it's plausible that the CS2 (senjutsu) would boost Sasuke's reflexes and durability closer to Edo Madara's level, and allow him to react and block A's punch and limit the devastation. 

All things considered, I consider Hebi Sasuke superior to early MS Sasuke, both in arsenal and especially in tactical usage. He quickly became overly dependent on the point-click Amaterasu.​


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## Duhul10 (Sep 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Gotta' remember Sasuke was stated to be still injured from his fight with Itachi against Bee, and had also lost the power-up of the White Snake enhancements and the Curse Seal boosts as well.
> 
> People don't generally acknowledge it, but early MS Sasuke was _significantly_ slower than Hebi Sasuke, which mixed poorly with his destabilized brain and sudden lack of caution or foresight.
> 
> ...



Yes, Hebi Sasuke is clearly superior to MS Sasuke, because, ya know, if it would not be like that, Itachi would not be the KING we all live for  and he would pale in front of the Little mexican Sauce


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2015)

I think it's common sense.

*Against Itachi*

_[CS2, White Snake enhancements, Tactical Genius, Orochimaru]_

CS2/Senjutsu increases his speed, strength, durability, genjutsu, ninjutsu, stamina, and gives him flight.

*Against Bee* 

_[Nothing but stated injuries from the Itachi fight.]_

For the first 99% of the fight. If he had/used Amaterasu at the start, Bee would be dead.

*Against A*

_[v1 Susano'o, Amaterasu]_

There's a case for MS Sasuke against A being stronger, but not a clear-cut one.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Whereas using the sharingan only enhances reaction time for Sasuke, Naruto gets a double boost.



Indeed, which is why Naruto could perform just as well against a Raikage as Sasuke despite always being the slower of the rivals.  



Ryuzaki said:


> SM Jiraiya ≥ 5.0
> SM Naruto ≥ 4.5
> MS Sasuke ≥ 4.5



There's nothing putting Jiraiya above Naruto & Sasuke though.

The later versions of Naruto & Sasuke have no Databook scores. Kishimoto decided not to bring them back.



Ryuzaki said:


> but he wasn't roof tier since a Base Bee basically beat the shit out of him, even with the sharingan.



B didn't do that with raw speed. B did that with attack frequency. He was using seven swords at once. There were blades coming from all kinds of different angles, and Sasuke simply couldn't read and react to them all, despite the super perception. 

We saw later that Sasuke was capable of dodging even v1 B, who is obviously quicker than base B.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think it's common sense to say:
> 
> _[Senjutsu, White Snake enhancements, Tactical Genius]_
> 
> ...



I agree with this though.


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Strat, Hebi Sasuke has nothing for A except for Kirin. Maybe CS2 Chidori, but that might prompt v2 anyway.

Sasuke would get worn down.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Strat, Hebi Sasuke has nothing for A except for Kirin. Maybe CS2 Chidori, but that might prompt v2 anyway. Sasuke would get worn down.



CS2 Chidori probably would've actually injured/debilitated A before he went v2 if we assume they fought just like they did. The normal Chidori pierced his chest a good few inches.

I also think with CS2, Sasuke would be able to react and block A like Edo Madara did. He'd still get sent flying, but at that point he could summon Manda, use flight, etc. to limit A's advantage.

Another thing this forum gets wrong based off a non-viz translation is that Oral Rebirth was taxing for Sasuke. The viz makes it clear it was the _half-dozen giant Dragon Katons_. He can rebirth plenty.

In any case, I'm not saying Hebi Sasuke could certainly beat A or Bee, but I think it'd be a respectable fight and he wouldn't be punked like he was when he was a rash, destabilized MS Sasuke.​


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## Rocky (Sep 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> CS2 Chidori probably would've actually injured/debilitated A before he went v2 if we assume they fought just like they did. The normal Chidori pierced his chest a good few inches.



If they fought "just like they did," then Sasuke would still be in base.

If we assume that Sasuke takes a different approach to the fight than he did in the manga, then it's only fair to also assume that A's own actions may differ too.



Strategoob said:


> I also think with CS2, Sasuke would be able to react and block A like Edo Madara did. He'd still get sent flying, but at that point he could summon Manda, use flight, etc. to limit A's advantage.



Even if he could block, he's still at a pretty significant disadvantage physically. Madara did block, but when he sat up, A was already on top of him trying to split him in two. Sasuke wouldn't have any time to escape.

Manda & flight wouldn't really help Sasuke win this thing anyway.



Strategoob said:


> Another thing this forum gets wrong based off a non-viz translation is that Oral Rebirth was taxing for Sasuke. The viz makes it clear it was the _half-dozen giant Dragon Katons_. He can rebirth plenty.



Regardless, stamina is not in Sasuke's favor. A's the tailed beast in a man's body. Sasuke couldn't outlast dying Itachi. 



Strategoob said:


> but I think it'd be a respectable fight



So do I, but not one where I see Sasuke as the favorite. MS Sasuke has such a better match up against both of them. Amaterasu auto-won against B, and the Kagutsuchi~Susano'o combo is one of the best defenses in the manga against A, who is hand to hand only.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 11, 2015)

CS2 Sasuke can't block V2 A.

MS Sasuke couldn't even perceive him, he flanked him in plain sight.

Sasuke gets 2 or 3 rebirths at most, but that doesn't really matter considering the super speed punch takes his head off, Ei always aims for the head with his top speed punch.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know how you're reaching these conclusions. If Jiraiya gets hit, he's going to go flying into the ground just like SM Naruto did when he was hit by Madara.



I just gave a couple of examples of Jiraiya getting hit by attacks of similar power, and not losing his footing - that's how I reached this conclusion. Just because Naruto got knocked over by Madara, it doesn't mean Jiraiya will be floored also. 



> He's "defenseless" from there because he can't block a lightning chop, and he probably can't block the leg drop either if it was truly a serious threat to Sasuke.



He might still take damage from a Chop or Axe Kick, but if he blocks then he isn't taking a direct hit. He's swift enough to get his arms up, especially if Ei is in V1. That said, V2 Ei's Axe Kick was being used on a very exhausted Sasuke. At that point in the match he wasn't capable of evading attacks. Ei fell at the rate of gravity, so I imagine SM Jiraiya would fare a lot better in the same situation. 



> There's not much to compare the two, but Minato wins hype.



Minato is hyped as the fastest because of his reaction speed, Shunshin and Hiraishin, not because he is fast at moving on his feet (otherwise, he wouldn't rely on Shunshin and teleportation so often). SM Jiraiya has better feats. 



> Links to back up your points? Sages don't move significantly faster in my eyes. It just looks that way because their perception goes through the roof (think 3-Tome Sasuke vs. KN0).



Base Kabuto was _blitzed by KN3_, yet SM Kabuto blitzed Itachi.

Base Naruto was _blitzed by Kakuzu's wires_, yet SM Naruto _crossed a massive distance and blitzed Asura Path_ in sheer moments.

And thats just a couple of examples.



> I have Sasuke & Sage Naruto on the same level of body speed since their best feats (dodging Elbow & dodging Nukite) are basically the same thing. Sage Jiraiya's body speed is probably comparable to theirs.



Sasuke has as good reactions as SM Jiraiya might have with SM sensing, but his movement speed is inferior imo. His sharingan is ultimately what allowed him to evade Ei - if it came to a race, or a who could raise their arms over their face first contest, Jiraiya wins it.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There's nothing putting Jiraiya above Naruto & Sasuke though.
> 
> The later versions of Naruto & Sasuke have no Databook scores. Kishimoto decided not to bring them back.


Jiraiya blitzed the crap out of Pain, while he was fresh. I don't know the only one who remotely came close to that feat was Naruto in taking on Ashura. Also, Jiraiya at the time had an indefinite SM, whereas Naruto was limited.



Rocky said:


> B didn't do that with raw speed. B did that with attack frequency. He was using seven swords at once. There were blades coming from all kinds of different angles, and Sasuke simply couldn't read and react to them all, despite the super perception.
> 
> We saw later that Sasuke was capable of dodging even v1 B, who is obviously quicker than base B.



Bee was also pressing Itachi (who is roof tier) so I'm more than inclined to give Base Bee roof tier, same as the Raikage.


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