# Gandalf goes down to Fairy Tail



## Brightsteel (Jun 2, 2014)

Takes on the verse, in a gauntlet. Goes from the weakest and climbs from there. Dragons, CSK, and Zeref are barred from the gauntlet. 

Scenario 1: Gandalf the Grey

Scenario 2: Reborn Gandalf; Gandalf the White

Scenario 3: Full power unrestricted Gandalf, god tiers aren't barred from the gauntlet. 

Location: Room of Spirit and Time

How far does he go?


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## Zhen Chan (Jun 2, 2014)

1. Shit tier
2. Slightly above shit tier
3. Solos the setting


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## Red Angel (Jun 2, 2014)

What's FT's highest DC and durability w/o the Dragons removed?

I was under the impression that the Dragons and shit were their biggest assets


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## Genki Rocket (Jun 3, 2014)

Natsu has a one use 4 megaton attack with LFD Roar, doesn't he? I remember seeing a lot of megaton level calcs in the blogs, but people seemed skeptical, and I don't know if any were accepted.

That being said, wasn't even base Gandalf mountain level?


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## Red Angel (Jun 3, 2014)

I believe he was, yes


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## Tom Servo (Jun 3, 2014)

Stats for Gandalf?

Never read the books and OBD still in the infirmary.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 3, 2014)

He should be Mountain level in DC and gets scaled to this for speed for Grey


White should be above that and as a Maiar Ol?rin should be significantly above that (I think scaled to Sauron's best or so)


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## Neruc (Jun 3, 2014)

He has the DC to deal with the people in the verse.

What durability does he have?

Speed seems similar enough that this might end up being a quick draw scenario.

Regardless, there is that demon chick....whose name I forgot that can use macros to give you orders which you have to obey.
Mindfuck basically.
Does Gandalf have resistances to such things?

Evergreen can turn you into stone by looking you in the eyes, but she first has to take her glasses of to do so.

I'll bring up other characters that might pose a threat later if needed.


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## Red Angel (Jun 3, 2014)

Durability is about the same as his DC

Gandalf did resist mindfuck from characters like Sauron and Saruman. One mindfucked an island and the other can mentally control armies and shit

Petrification might work though


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## Neruc (Jun 3, 2014)

Then he has nothing to worry from the demon 

Durability being mountain level would pretty much result in everyone who doesn't have a hax ability being rendered completely powerless.

As for the petrification thing, Gandalf should be able to take it most of the time now that I think about it 






Evergreen was looking at him while he didn't have his glasses on, yet he still didn't have enough time to imagine a pair, so Gandalf, being faster, should be able to fire of a blast and kill her before her magic can take effect, especially since she first has to take her glasses on and then maintain eye contact with him.

The only other people who could pose a threat that pop up in my mind at the moment is Cana who could trap her entire guild into playing cards with the swipe of a hand, but she never did it with someone as strong as Gandalf, so you can call NLF here.
As for the law of retrogression, it had never had to deal with someone as old as Gandalf.
The Sensory link has never been used to kill/transfer death to someone as strong, so its a NLF too.


Uh, so yeah, unless someone else has other people he would like to bring up, I'd say Gandalf clears.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jun 3, 2014)

Gandalf one shots in all scenarios.


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> Gandalf one shots in all scenarios.


Yea Gandalf the grey the dude who wasn't able to take care of Smaug is gonna shits on one hundred Dragons and FTverse right.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 3, 2014)

Acnologia casual energy beam is still 80 mt


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## Neruc (Jun 3, 2014)

Brightsteel said:


> *Dragons,* CSK, and Zeref are barred from the *gauntlet. *?






Extravlad said:


> Yea Gandalf the grey the dude who wasn't able to take care of Smaug is gonna shits on one hundred Dragons and FTverse right.





iwandesu said:


> Acnologia casual energy beam is still 80 mt



Read the OP next time.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Yea Gandalf the grey the dude who wasn't able to take care of Smaug is gonna shits on one hundred Dragons and FTverse right.



Who said he couldn't take Smaug? He was escorting the dwarves part way to take care of other busness, he also killed Durin's Bane who is >> Smaug


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

Gandalf goes down to Fairy Tail 
and has himself a time
nakama punches everywhere
humble folks with some temptations


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## Matta Clatta (Jun 3, 2014)

Well Gandalf at most stops at Mard in all 3 scenarios(seems like OP missed that character)


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

Matta Clatta said:


> Well Gandalf at most stops at Mard in all 3 scenarios(seems like OP missed that character)



Actually
Unrestricted Gandalf is goddamn ancient and i think a worldshaper?
it's been awhile but yeah
FT is not contending with full maiar gandalf anytime soon


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## Matta Clatta (Jun 3, 2014)

Do we scale all Maiar from Sauron now all of a sudden?
 Otherwise yeah I don't see anything outside of city level for unrestricted Gandalf


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Who said he couldn't take Smaug? He was escorting the dwarves part way to take care of other busness, he also killed Durin's Bane who is >> Smaug



Nothing suggest that Durin's Bane was greater than Smaug infact the information we have suggest the opposite. Smaug had a realistic chance of destroying Rivendell accodring to Gandalf. The Balrog would have easily been stopped by a  combination of Elrond and Glorfindel.

LOTR is by far the greatest fantasy story and one of the greatest stories ever told in my opnion, but they are not that strong. Gandalf the White for all his power would be taken down by a lot of characters in Fairy Tail let alone all the dragons.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Go back to the library, Arednad.


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Go back to the library, Arednad.



Get a clue about what you are talking about instead of needlessly wanking a great story. It actually laughable to claim that Balrogs are hypersonic. 

Sauron with the one ring was a lot more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and Elendil/Gil-galad was enough to take him. Anyone suggesting that Gandalf the Grey could stand against the Fairy Tail universe in a straight out fight is clueless. Absolutely clueless.


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## Red Angel (Jun 3, 2014)

Well calcs are there that suggest it. Don't like it? Don't care

Go back to the library, or migrate to CBR. Or something

Also

>implies losing to Elendil and Gil Galad is some kind of low end showing


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Well calcs are there that suggest it. Don't like it? Don't care
> 
> Go back to the library, or migrate to CBR. Or something
> 
> ...



Losing to Elendil and Gil-galad is a standard showing for Sauron and Maiar of his level which have become bound to a physical body. Olorin is a different matter, because he is not bound to a physical form.

The calcs are just clearly nonesense made by some desperate to wank Tolkien. Glorfindel killed a Balrog and he is around in LOTR. He is obviously not hypersonic or even supersonic. It';s foolish to suggest otherwise. Trying to take poetic statements literally to try and wank characters is embarrassing.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Go back to the library, Arednad.


Or spergbattles, either way, get out.


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> **



No arguments to give I see? The LOTR works, because it is a brilliantly written story with few if any plot holes. 

It's plain foolish to think that Glorfindel can move at hypersonic speeds, but chose to let Frodo die. Though I guess that would explain things in the films like how Elrond could travel to Rohan so quickly. 

Unless we are dealing with the heavy hitters, Tolkien's heroes are just outclassed by the standard anime/comic character. They are not supposed to be on that level.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

What the bloody fuck are you even talking about. 
Are you seeing things that are not there? Please, show me any mention of balrogs or hypersonic shits on my posts in this thread.
Perhaps you _do have_ some sort of brain problem.


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> What the bloody fuck are you even talking about.
> Are you seeing things that are not there? Please, show me any mention of balrogs or hypersonic shits on my posts.
> Perhaps you _do have_ some sort of brain problems.



I am talking about the link where someone tries to calculate the Balrogs as hypersonic.

Gandalf the Grey's highest showing was when he fought and lost to Balrog. We do know that he was weak during that fight, because of the spell he cast beforehand.

Gandalf is no doubt powerful and could fight all day, but a Balrog is probably just below his limits. He is fast, but obviously not supersonic and just has not got the speed or the power to deal with the attacks that comic/anime characters throw out. 

Any attack powerful enough to destroy a city block is going to kill him. Any weapon with enough 'magic' about it will kill him. 

It is what it is. I have never understood the need to wank popular characters on here. 

Elves and Numenoreans are closer to Captain America with near telepathic immunity than the Thor's and Hulk's people here make out.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

oh....he's _whining_ over Wombat's calc. Meh.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 3, 2014)

Reddan said:


> I am talking about the link where someone tries to calculate the Balrogs as hypersonic.
> 
> Gandalf the Grey's highest showing was when he fought and lost to Balrog. We do know that he was weak during that fight, because of the spell he cast beforehand.
> 
> ...



not really a "Try" when the calculation was successful. If you have an issue with it, it'd be best to actually point out the flaw in the calculation rather than try and disprove it with "that's not how it should work.".

The OBD works on calcs rather than assumptions, and while it's not a perfect system due to the general issue with inconsistency all fiction has, it's a lot better than just assuming off of what people think, and more importantly, it's the system that has been adopted here.

I personally think some fictions here are over-hyped and that certain outliers aren't treated as such - but I don't argue for that when it's clearly not the accepted method here, and a lot of why I think such is frankly subjective information, which does hold less ground than going with said calcs.

TL;DR if you don't like calcs this is probably not the place for you.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 3, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> not really a "Try" when the calculation was successful. If you have an issue with it, it'd be best to actually point out the flaw in the calculation rather than try and disprove it with "that's not how it should work.".
> 
> The OBD works on calcs rather than assumptions, and while it's not a perfect system due to the general issue with inconsistency all fiction has, it's a lot better than just assuming off of what people think, and more importantly, it's the system that has been adopted here.
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. if a calculated feat output a certain energy it output this certain energy, there is just no way to argue against the use of calcs there. 
what do you mean by Outliers?  OBD is really strict when it comes to it. (Like roshi moon busting and the first of madara's meteors)


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## AgentAAA (Jun 3, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Pretty much this. if a calculated feat output a certain energy it output this certain energy, there is just no way to argue against the use of calcs there.
> what do you mean by Outliers?  OBD is really strict when it comes to it. (Like roshi moon busting and the first of madara's meteors)



This really isn't the thread to talk about that - but there are a few fictions that I think have similar circumstances to Roshi's moon busting that have their calcs go through. Though now I think about it it tends to be who gets scaled to it I have serious issues with.

If I'm going to just outright throw a statement out on this, it'd probably be that spaceship piloting falls under the same lelfiction to me that Faster than the eye can see or PL's do, due to tending to see those calcs as inconsistent with the rest of that verse.
But again, not this thread's point and I'm not going to derail it. If I feel like arguing those points, I'll bring it to the meta-dome rather than pull this thread into an unrelated argument.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Losing to Elendil and Gil-galad is a standard showing for Sauron and Maiar of his level which have become bound to a physical body. Olorin is a different matter, because he is not bound to a physical form.
> 
> The calcs are just clearly nonesense made by some desperate to wank Tolkien. Glorfindel killed a Balrog and he is around in LOTR. He is obviously not hypersonic or even supersonic. It';s foolish to suggest otherwise. Trying to take poetic statements literally to try and wank characters is embarrassing.



Gil Galad is one of the most powerful Elf Lords (far weaker one have destroyed fortresses casually) and Elendil is on par with him. Sauron drawing them is hardly a low showing

Aww, he doesn't like calcs, how adowable

If you don't like calcs, what the fuck else kind of unit will you use to compare stats? Squiggles? zig zags? colors? Calcs exist to find a precise power level. Don't like it. Deal with it faget

No, Glorfindel obviously is hypersonic. Powerscaling is quite the asset

But nah, I guess Frieza is weak because he was beaten by SSJ Goku who's never busted a planet personally according to you rite?

Also, go away Aredneck


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## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

Balrogs aren't hypersonic. Low supersonic is where it is. That's also where everyone and their mother is stuck at.
Whoever I was arguing with about this earlier this year or the previous year still hasn't come up with any tiny bit of argument why we should support the high end in that case instead of the low end, like we always do. There is also a mid-value, which is probably fine.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

> 577,200/300 = 1924 m/s or Mach 5.65



Derp

10char


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## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

Ye, because this is not a thing, right? 

10 Minutes (Low-End)

577,200 [metres]/600 [seconds] = 962 m/s or Mach 2.83


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

lol, nobody uses low ends for anything

When there's in betweens anyways


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## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

Nobody except almost everybody?


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Who is this "almost everybody"


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## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm not in mood to humour you, get lost.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> I am talking about the link where someone tries to calculate the Balrogs as hypersonic.
> 
> Gandalf the Grey's highest showing was when he fought and lost to Balrog. We do know that he was weak during that fight, because of the spell he cast beforehand.
> 
> ...



Even putting aside your issues with people's interpretations of Gandalf's power...
I seem to remember Gandalf the Grey killing that Balrog. Yes, Gandalf was defeated as well, but that doesn't discount the fact that he fought on par with it so that the mountaintop was thought to be have a storm on it, threw it down, breaking the side of the mountain and, well, killed it.

Also, you're going to have to argue better why Gandalf can't be supersonic beyond being "obviously not supersonic" if you expect it to fly here.

Bringing up the chapter where he was at the top of the burning trees in the Hobbit would be a start for instance, if not for the fact that even disregarding calcs and whatnot, Gandalf being worried is ludicrously inconsistent with his other showings.

I've never seen people claim that Numenorians are on the level of Thor or the Hulk either. Although saying that high level elves at the level of Captain America isn't really doing them justice either.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 4, 2014)

By the way, Skarbrand, if you wanted to argue for the higher end you could claim that the 5 minute assumed timeframe is more believable than 10 minutes, given how Ungoliant was in the middle of strangling Morgoth.

As it is you're not doing a very good job of defending the usage of the high-end against the low. And yes, in general low-ends are used over high-ends.

Although calcs being imprecise tools in general, part of the reason why high and low ends exist is to allow for leeway in debates. So sticking religiously to one number at all in a calculation as if only one number can be the absolute truth isn't really good practice either.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> By the way, Skarbrand, if you wanted to argue for the higher end you could claim that the 5 minute assumed timeframe is more believable than 10 minutes, given how Ungoliant was in the middle of strangling Morgoth.



Well I was going to being up how the whole 10 minute thing being in the same boat as that assumed timeframe for Frieza's blast that destroyed Namek taking several minutes in the sense that it was stupid for Ungoliant to take that much time to strangle him or whatever or such a massive amount of time being needed for something implying super speed and such and such



> As it is you're not doing a very good job of defending the usage of the high-end against the low. And yes, in general low-ends are used over high-ends.



I'll have you know I was using the mid end number. I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise (I'm well aware of how using calcs in debates works)



> Although calcs being imprecise tools in general, part of the reason why high and low ends exist is to allow for leeway in debates. So sticking religiously to one number at all in a calculation as if only one number can be the absolute truth isn't really good practice either.



Not really doing that but, mkay

Just percieved using the low end above anything else as lowballing when there were several different results


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## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

The problem is - most of the time "high ends" are used is for DC/Durability calcs (eg. - using pulverization instead of violent fragmentation or vaporization instead of melting and so on). Speed calcs having usually the highest margin of error and overall being less reliable get the short end of the stick, especially assumed timeframes. But it's reasonable enough to use higher ends when there is an actual good argument for it. There is none here. The 5 minutes is actually fine though, I have no real qualms with that.
I thought hypersonic starts from mach-10 as of rather recent though (and MHS from m-100), hence the confusion. If it's still mach 5, then yeah.

Edit: checked the wiki, hypersonic is still mach 5, but MHS is indeed 100+ now.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 4, 2014)

Ramius said:


> The problem is - most of the time "high ends" are used is for DC/Durability calcs (eg. - using pulverization instead of violent fragmentation or vaporization instead of melting and so on). Speed calcs having usually the highest margin of error and overall being less reliable get the short end of the stick, especially assumed timeframes. But it's reasonable enough to use higher ends when there is an actual good argument for it. There is none here. The 5 minutes is actually fine though, I have no real qualms with that.
> I thought hypersonic starts from mach-10 as of rather recent though (and MHS from m-100), hence the confusion. If it's still mach 5, then yeah.



isn't the "official" term hypersonic everything past Mach 5? Don't know why we'd change that around if that's the case.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Gil Galad is one of the most powerful Elf Lords (far weaker one have destroyed fortresses casually) and Elendil is on par with him. Sauron drawing them is hardly a low showing
> 
> Aww, he doesn't like calcs, how adowable
> 
> ...


Gil-galad is not one of the most powerful Elf-Lords. 

Please tell me the far weaker ones that have destroyed fortresses? Only two elves have done so: Galadriel and Luthien. Luthien is more powerful than most Maiar and Galadriel is one of the most powerful elves.

Sauron drawing with them is not a low showing it's his standard showing.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Aredneck said:


> Gil-galad is not one of the most powerful Elf-Lords.



Yes he is 



> Please tell me the far weaker ones that have destroyed fortresses? Only two elves have done so: Galadriel and Luthien. Luthien is more powerful than most Maiar and Galadriel is one of the most powerful elves.



I was referring to those people exactly. Meh, on par if nothing else I suppose



> Sauron drawing with them is not a low showing it's his standard showing.



Uh, yeah, that's what I was saying from the start you genetic defect


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Even putting aside your issues with people's interpretations of Gandalf's power...
> I seem to remember Gandalf the Grey killing that Balrog. Yes, Gandalf was defeated as well, but that doesn't discount the fact that he fought on par with it so that the mountaintop was thought to be have a storm on it, threw it down, breaking the side of the mountain and, well, killed it.
> 
> Also, you're going to have to argue better why Gandalf can't be supersonic beyond being "obviously not supersonic" if you expect it to fly here.
> ...



The calculation is rubbish, because it makes a random jump in logic about how long Morgoth was struggling with Ungoliant. These are two of the most powerful beings fighting against each other. Earendil fought Anchalagon for an entire night, Gandalf fought the Balrog for an entire day if I remember straight. 

Gandalf cannot be supersonic, because we see him in urgent need to get things done and he never travels that fast. The LOTR unlike most comics/anime is well written and you are not left wondering why a character did not travel faster.

There are some major players in LOTR. Sauron for all his power was not especially skilled in raw combat power. The likes of Osse and Eonwe, or Arien would wreck Sauron in a physical fight. His power lies in other things. He helped create rings that could stop the world evolving and freeze nature. He was literally mind controlling hundreds and thousands of orcs and other men. 


Gandalf being worried in the Hobbit comes from Bilbo's account and is not necessarily true, but even then 2000 orcs is nothing to laugh at. 

We know that not just elves, but the Noldor were generally on par with the Numenoreans in all matters. This is the average Nuemnorean and the average Noldor, not the kings.

The likes of Luthien, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel etc are more powerful than the average elf.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Yes he is


No he is not. He is not as powerful as the likes of Luthien, Galadriel, Feanor, Thingol or Glorfindel. If we are including Half-elven we can throw in Elrond and Earendil too. He was a great warrior, but not on the level of those with the blood of Melian or the ones who had seen the trees.  


> I was referring to those people exactly. Meh, on par if nothing else I suppose


You are showing your ignorance, because Luthien especially is significantly more powerful than Gil-galad. The gap is tremendous between the two. Galadriel herself is more powerful too.


> Uh, yeah, that's what I was saying from the start you genetic defect


Yes standard with him losing to Huan or narrowly escaping from being killed by the Numenoreans. Sauron was prepared to fight, but it was not his specialty like say Eonwe. Gil-galad and Elendil are not going to stand a chance against characters that spam city block destroying attacks.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> No he is not. He is not as powerful as the likes of Luthien, Galadriel, Feanor, Thingol or Glorfindel. If we are including Half-elven we can throw in Elrond and Earendil too. He was a great warrior, but not on the level of those with the blood of Melian or the ones who had seen the trees.



Gil-Galad was the grandson of Fingon, who is the son of Fingolfin, guy who was able to fight for an extended period against Melkor. So he counts as a high elf

Are you an idiot?



> You are showing your ignorance, because Luthien especially is significantly more powerful than Gil-galad. The gap is tremendous between the two. Galadriel herself is more powerful too.



>Aredneck
>ignorance accusations

jontronohmygod.gif

Meh, he's still scalable off Galadriel in any case



> Yes standard with him losing to Huan or narrowly escaping from being killed by the Numenoreans. Sauron was prepared to fight, but it was not his specialty like say Eonwe. Gil-galad and Elendil are not going to stand a chance against characters that spam city block destroying attacks.



His battle with Huan caused earthquakes across many kilometers that were damming up rivers and shit

He purposely surrendered to Numenor, never recall a "nearly killed" thing

Don't know how you tend to operate, though between you and me, destroying fortresses that make Hogwarts look like a small condo is well above "city block busting"


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Gil-Galad was the grandson of Fingon, who is the son of Fingolfin, guy who was able to fight for an extended period against Melkor. So he counts as a high elf
> 
> Are you an idiot?


I don't need to throw insults, because your ignorance shows. First of all in the mistake that Christopher Tolkien made was having Gil-galad as Fingon's son not grandson. If you actually knew about Tolkien you would realise he corrected this mistake and Gil-galad was the great grandson of Finarfin, Fingolfin's brother. Galadriel was his great aunt. 

Elrond and his descendants were the only offspring of Fingolfin left. Elrond being Fingolfin's great, great grandson. Not that having a great ancestor necessarily makes you strong.


> >Aredneck
> >ignorance accusations
> 
> jontronohmygod.gif
> ...


No, because Galadriel is more powerful than him. Nor is all magic linked. Galadriel and her brother Finrod were more inclined to magic than others. Fingolfin's descendants were very, very tall men and more inclined to martial skills. 

Luthien's descendants all the way down to Aragorn still had healing and foresight abilities from her. 


> His battle with Huan caused earthquakes across many kilometers that were damming up rivers and shit


No it didn't. Stop confusing poetic language for actual earthquakes. 


> He purposely surrendered to Numenor, never recall a "nearly killed" thing
> 
> Don't know how you tend to operate, though between you and me, destroying fortresses that make Hogwarts look like a small condo is well above "city block busting"


The second time he purposely surrendered, because he knew he could not win in might alone. The first time the Numenoreans came after him they were not half as corrupted and he narrowly escaped with his life.

Being able with prep to bring down a fortress is not the same as being able to do it in the middle of a battle nor does it mean you can take a city block attack. Any elf hit with anything close to a city block attack is going to die.

Luthien with time and being allowed to sing was able to put all of Angband to sleep. No elf comes close to a feat of such active power. That's what she can do if you allow her to set up. With all her power, her reflexes and body movements are still standard for an elf. Unlike even Beren she does not have the skills to dodge an arrow.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> No it didn't. Stop confusing poetic language for actual earthquakes.





> Being able with *prep* to bring down a fortress is not the same as being able to do it in the middle of a battle


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

So now we're resorting to the "herp derp poetic language" copout for things we don't like?

Did you seriously say Galadriel needed prep to level Dol Guldur?

Dat ODC, folks


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Magic in Tolkien is not something you just whip out easily. If the Silmarillion was the only point of reference then I can understand certain interpretations, but Tolkien goes to great pains to explain everything very carefully. 

I have seen people go as far as to say that the Balrog destroyed a mountain when he fell. Completely ridiculous when even the most basic reading of Tolkien would show you the Mountain was still standing.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

I honestly not even sure why he bothers coming here. After years of being rekt by IWD he didn't' learned how things works.
Is quite tragic.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Seriously, why hasn't he killed himself for being such a dong yet?


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Magic in Tolkien is not something you just whip out easily.


Aye, that's why Gandalf's fights were seen from miles away.

Gandalf, Durin's Bane and The Nine were just screaming very loud and charging their _magick_ tricks over several hours straight. 
The constants beams of flash lights were either poetic language or hallucinations caused by high consumptions of hobbit's weed.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> I honestly not even sure why he bothers coming here. After years of being rekt by IWD he didn't' learned how things works.
> Is quite tragic.


Because I don't care about being called names by random people on a forum. Especially when they are clueless. It's hilarious literally hilarious to hear people claiming that Huan and Sauron's fights were causing earthquakes. People make up lies and cannot back it up with quotes. 

We see Glorfindel wondering about in LOTR. He was as powerful as any elf in the First Age except for Luthien. 

Give quotes or just stop with the pointless wanking.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Don't suppose section banning Aredneck is possible?


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Give quotes or just stop with the pointless wanking.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

As I said give quotes or stop making up things. I am tired of seeing Tolkien distorted by fanboys, without a clue. Claiming that Gil-galad was the grandson of Fingon is enough to show the ignorance of this board. 

Back up what you are saying with actual quotes or else retract them.


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## Red Angel (Jun 4, 2014)

Shut up Aredneck

Go kill yourself. Nobody likes you


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

> As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.
> ‘What is the light?’ he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.
> ‘I do not know,’ Strider answered. ‘It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.’





> ‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon S?l. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.





> ‘It was made, and it had not been destroyed,’ said Gandalf. ‘From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin’s Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
> 
> ‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.



Magical Gandalf strikes again. Why? Because _fuck you_ that's why.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Come Arednad
And show to us how dumb you are and claim "poetic language".


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Or crawl back to the library and stay with your theories about Sauce.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Magical Gandalf strikes again. Why? Because _fuck you_ that's why.



Yep that's Gandalf fighting. What line there implies he is even close to supersonic? What line there implies he can tank city block level attacks? 

We know Gandalf the White can shoot beams out of his hands like when he knocked back the Nazgul chasing Faramir. Nothing at all there remotely hints that he is going to take a supersonic fairy tail character that destroys several city blocks with one blast.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

You know what
I going back to die play Etrian Odyssey. Ain't got no time for dumbcunts.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

The point >>>>>>>> large magellanic cloud >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your head.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> ? What line there implies he can tank city block level attacks?


_But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said_

CITY BLOCK IS THE NEW HEAT. FEAR MUH CITY BLOCK, FEAR THEM.
How the bloody hell an individual can be this fucking blind is beyond me.

I foresight the use of "poetic language".


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reminds me that Oss? raised (with some help) a fucking country from the sea and have the legit habit of creating sea storms and monsters to screw with people.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> _But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said_
> 
> CITY BLOCK IS THE NEW HEAT. FEAR MUH CITY BLOCK, FEAR THEM.
> How the bloody hell an individual can be this fucking blind is beyond me.



Yes flashing lightning and loud noises. I ask once more what attack exactly does Gandalf do that implies he could take someone moving at supersonic speeds or take a city block attack. 

Nothing at all in LOTR can compare when someone like Jellal brings down a meteorite. To claim otherwise is laughable. 


That's the kind of things manga/anime characters throw it. It's leagues above what is described in LOTR.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Reminds me that Oss? raised (with some help) a fucking country from the sea.



i mentioned Osse and he is a monster. If people were using him then that is a different matter. I addressed how Sauron's and Gandalf's power was not in might. They are other Maiar with real destructive power. 

If you were using the likes of Eonwe, Osse or Arien then they would absolutely wreck most anime universes. Sauron's power is not destructive. The War of Wrath destroyed a continent, but nobody is using the heavy hitters, they are using the likes of Gandalf the Grey. 

I repeat he creates rings that corrupt the flow of time and stop evolution. He creates a ring that allows him to mind control entire nations and continents. That's power, but it's useless in a fight and it's why Sauron loses so much.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Yes flashing lightning and loud noises. I ask once more what attack exactly does Gandalf do that implies he could take someone moving at supersonic speeds or take a city block attack.


Is almost like you don't understand that to a create a storm of certain proportions you need fucking _energy_.



> He creates a ring that allows him to mind control entire nations and continents. That's power, but it's useless in a fight.


I gonna sig this.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> i mentioned Osse and he is a monster. If people were using him then that is a different matter. I addressed how Sauron's and Gandalf's power was not in might. They are other Maiar with real destructive power.
> 
> If you were using the likes of Eonwe, Osse or Arien then they *would absolutely wreck most anime universes.* Sauron's power is not destructive. The War of Wrath destroyed a continent, but nobody is using the heavy hitters, they are using the likes of Gandalf the Grey.
> 
> I repeat he creates rings that corrupt the flow of time and stop evolution. He creates a ring that allows him to mind control entire nations and continents. That's power, but it's useless in a fight and it's why Sauron loses so much.


Nope. even if your guy was a star buster he still wouldn't beat most of anime verses. and even if he did,there would still be tons of way stronger verses.
if he can mind control entire nations he can mind control a single fucker on a fight. 
I know nothing about the rest, though.
Regarding the thread, FT characters are still low 2 digits and hax is a thing. (Other than that they are just getting killed)
Off topic jellal feat is still a blatant outlier that surpass anything showed by spirit king and god tiers.(despite he being only a high-top tier)


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy Law.
/Thread.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Not commenting on the thread, but Reddan, I have honestly never seen you post here outside a lord of the rings thread.


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

I like how LOTR fanboys are so delusional and can't accept to see Gandalf getting fucked up by a shitty verse like FT.

The only way to stop Fairy Law is to kill the user before he uses it, or to deny it with another magic (like grimoire Law)

In that case there is at least 3 people in the FTverse able to use Fairy Law to just oneshot Gandalf.

Gandalf is not gonna kill Mavis + Laxus + Makarov in less than 3 second with the whole FTverse protecting them.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Oh lord, there are two of them, now. 
Laughing at the idea of anyone in FT even touching unrestricted Gandalf.
Having no physical body is fun like that.


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

> Laughing at the idea of anyone in FT even touching unrestricted Gandalf.


They don't need to touch him in order to beats him, as I said Fairy law is hax, and it's impossible to dodge, Gandalf isn't gonna escape.



> Having no physical body is fun like that.


Do you even read FT? Having no physical body won't saves him at all, Fairy Law isn't destroying your body or something.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 4, 2014)

I already have doubts about them touching Grey or White. Olorin rapes them


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy Law vs the Living Tribunal


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy Law vs Galactus


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

You know things are bad when you have to go into NLF territory. *patiently waiting for the scan where Fairy Law affect spiritual creatures*


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> I like how LOTR fanboys are so delusional and can't accept to see Gandalf getting fucked up by a shitty verse like FT.
> 
> The only way to stop Fairy Law is to kill the user before he uses it, or to deny it with another magic (like grimoire Law)
> 
> ...


He's only taking one guy at a time. Read the OP:


Brightsteel said:


> Takes on the verse,* in a gauntlet. Goes from the weakest and climbs from there. *Dragons, CSK, and Zeref are barred from the gauntlet.
> 
> Scenario 1: Gandalf the Grey
> 
> ...


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

@Louis Cyphire It has to be the worst troll I've ever read in my life.
Gandalf compared to Galactus or the Living Tribunal.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Quoting myself because dumbcunt cannot read, apparently.



Louis Cyphre said:


> You know things are bad when you have to go into NLF territory. **patiently waiting for the scan where Fairy Law affect spiritual creatures**



*Emphasis.*


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy Law vs SN Lucifer


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## Iwandesu (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy law is not really hax. (It is pretty much portrayed as a top tier light magic just like fairy glitter) using it against Acnologia wasn't even an option to begin with.
Things like that get just their best showing. (Which is small city+ due to being enough to take hades)


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Fairy Law vs SN Lucifer



Fairy Law vs _Michael_


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

> using it against Acnologia wasn't even an option to begin with.


That wasn't an option because Mashima is a piece of shit and you know it.
Laxus could have used it MANY TIMES, he didn't knew about Hades's Grimoire Law (so he should have tried), he could have used it as well against this guy from Tartaros.

Mashima is just a terrible writer who's nerfing his own characters for no reason.

Laxus doesn't even have the fake-dragonforce anymore post timeskip


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## Iwandesu (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> That wasn't an option because Mashima is a piece of shit and you know it.
> Laxus could have used it MANY TIMES, he didn't knew about Hades's Grimoire Law (so he should have tried), he could have used it as well against this guy from Tartaros.
> 
> Mashima is just a terrible writer who's nerfing his own characters for no reason.
> ...


Mashima is so bad that i conceive. 
It is still NLF, and unless showed otherwise, we can't assume FL beats anyone no matter how strong it is (we actually have counters against it, like fairy glitter being tanked by gravity guy despite being one of the 3 legendary magics.)


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## TehChron (Jun 4, 2014)

Fairy Law vs STD Azazel


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Not commenting on the thread, but Reddan, I have honestly never seen you post here outside a lord of the rings thread.



It's because I love LOTR and I am happy to talk about it no matter the context. I just don't see the need to exaggerate or outright lie about the strength of characters. Some people here cannot seem to get their heads aroun just, because a story is brilliant and the characters fantastic that they would lose to a poorly written fan service manga like Fairy Tail. It's without doubt my favourite book. Though I will also comment on Mythology and ASOIAF.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

TehChron said:


> Fairy Law vs STD Azazel


Fairy Law vs Arednad and Extrafag.
The question is: can this shit magic destroy their ODC behavior or will just make it stronger?


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## AgentAAA (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> i mentioned Osse and he is a monster. If people were using him then that is a different matter. I addressed how Sauron's and Gandalf's power was not in might. They are other Maiar with real destructive power.
> 
> If you were using the likes of Eonwe, Osse or Arien then they would absolutely wreck most anime universes. Sauron's power is not destructive. The War of Wrath destroyed a continent, but nobody is using the heavy hitters, they are using the likes of Gandalf the Grey.
> 
> I repeat he creates rings that corrupt the flow of time and stop evolution. He creates a ring that allows him to mind control entire nations and continents. That's power, but it's useless in a fight and it's why Sauron loses so much.



By that logic, balrog should be >>> Sauron, but He's specifically stated to be hitting the level of power to "surpass" his old master, though it's generally considered here(And I agree) that it's probably talking about Morgoth after he's lost a lot of power.

He also has the energy to hold up his tower with sheer might alone, which is a lot of energy that he should be quite capable of using in other ways.

Sauron in particular becomes much scarier when you realize that he was able to take on several high-level opponents such as nunemorean kings, and elf lords, at the same time. As a matter of fact, with the ring amping him I recall it being pretty much stated that nothing in the third age would be capable of stopping him, and that even without that he was far beyond the power of any.
Even in his guise as the necromancer, he was stated to be a problem all the dwarves in the world, were they gathered together again, couldn't stop if they wanted to.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> By that logic, balrog should be >>> Sauron, but He's specifically stated to be hitting the level of power to "surpass" his old master, though it's generally considered here(And I agree) that it's probably talking about Morgoth after he's lost a lot of power.
> 
> He also has the energy to hold up his tower with sheer might alone, which is a lot of energy that he should be quite capable of using in other ways.
> 
> ...



Balrogs lack the raw power of someone like Eonwe. Sauron was a maia of Aule and his skill like Saruman lay in creating things. Gandalf was a Maia or Manwe and his power lay in his wisdom. Since he was generally greater than a Balrog even in his weakened state he could take a Balrog in his own domain of combat.

Sauron is not even close to surpassing Morgoth. The gap in power is simply unreachable for him. Morgoth is a power operating on the level of at least the planet and probably the solar system. He poured his power into every atom on the planet. Sorcery or black magic in Tolkien is literally drawing out Morgoth's power in certain materials or places. The whole Earth/Solar System is Morgoth's ring. Once Morgoth spent his power corrupting and bending the Earth to his will, his personal power was greatly reduced.

What Sauron did do is close the gap in personal power. So after Morgoth had spent most of his power corrupting the world, his personal power was close to the level of Sauron. Even then Sauron relied on the power Morgoth had placed in the world to accomplish a lot of magic.

By the time of the War of Ring, Sauron's personal power is not a huge problem. If say Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel had run into Sauron then they could have easily finished him off. The problem is that by the War of the Ring, Gondor has declined and most of the elves have left. The West simply don't have the power to defeat Sauron's armies. His armies are simply too big for him to lose. He is individually the strongest person, but not so strong that a combined assault from the White Council would not kill him. Worse had Gandalf or Saruman claimed the ring they would become individually more powerful than Sauron.

EDIT

The mind control of the one ring is not instant unless it dealing with the very weak willed and it can be resisted (unless you have a great ring yourself). It's more gradual and works over time. Sauron's not going to be able convert a bloodlusted Numenorean intent on killing him in an instant, but with the ring he would be able to do it for most in time.

This is precisely what weaker people like Galadriel, Elrond and Aragorn would do. They would use the powers of the ring to convert huge armies to their side. The men fighting for Sauron would soon deflect to the new wielder. Just like in the Last Alliance, Sauron would be defeated by might.


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## TehChron (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Fairy Law vs Arednad and Extrafag.
> The question is: can this shit magic destroy their ODC behavior or will just make it stronger?



Fairy Law clearly targets enemies of crap, given its effects

Chances are itd only make it stronger


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## AgentAAA (Jun 5, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Balrogs lack the raw power of someone like Eonwe. Sauron was a maia of Aule and his skill like Saruman lay in creating things. Gandalf was a Maia or Manwe and his power lay in his wisdom. Since he was generally greater than a Balrog even in his weakened state he could take a Balrog in his own domain of combat.
> 
> Sauron is not even close to surpassing Morgoth. The gap in power is simply unreachable for him. Morgoth is a power operating on the level of at least the planet and probably the solar system. He poured his power into every atom on the planet. Sorcery or black magic in Tolkien is literally drawing out Morgoth's power in certain materials or places. The whole Earth/Solar System is Morgoth's ring. Once Morgoth spent his power corrupting and bending the Earth to his will, his personal power was greatly reduced.
> 
> ...



Yet even in his fight against fingolfin, where his physical might had greatly declined, he was capable of hitting hard enough to cause magma to erupt from his strikes, if I recall correctly. Morgoth's power, even in person, was very small.

Galadriel is an elf lord of the same order as Feanor, who was a threat even to melkor, though she couldn't quite claim that power. 

Nonetheless, however author statement has outright said Sauron approached his master in power, and neither galadriel nor Elrond could claim to be a threat to him even together - Saying they'd be able to defeat him easily is a bit presumptuous, to say the least. 

Even they're capable of taking on several hundred orcs and coming out the victor rather easily, however, if I recall the end of return of the king correctly.

Sauron's personal feats include the physical might that held the tower of Barad-dur together, being able to mindrape over time with or without the ring and compelling an entire army of servants to his whim. 

Just because one's skill lies in creating things doesn't mean that can't also be applied to battle - otherwise I doubt many of the maia would have joined the vala in order to fight, or that many of the vala themselves would be skilled enough to battle morgoth - if we apply that to the Valar, for instance, some of them should be useless because their skill doesn't lie in a physical element that could be easily exploited, yet I doubt any of the valar were useless in combat.

To also point out, Gandalf, who's power didn't really lie in destruction, managed to best a balrog who's powers certainly would lie in destruction specifically - they were morgoth's elite soldiers and capable of besting most opponents one-on-one and taking out some high/top-tiers in numbers. they're clearly capable of applying their power in numerous ways.

I will agree that Sauron had a good chance of losing in-story to the white council if they combined their power by the time of the war of the ring - he was very diminished from his old strength, and while I do believe Galadriel, at least, was beginning to diminish at that point as well, 2 Istari, a noldo from the first age, and Elrond would be more than enough to have a fighting chance.


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## Akabara Strauss (Jun 5, 2014)

Unrestricted Olorin should be able to take this.

As for Sauron he has always been presented as one of the strongest, if not outright strongest, of the maiar.  And maia has some great feats like Osse raising Numenor, or Melian fencing Doriath with an enchantment that only Morgoth could have broken. Powerscaling should put him at those levels at least,

Balrogs are Melkors elite bodyguards, they were powerful enough to wound Ungoliant and drive her away, Them dying to the likes of Glorgindel and Etchellion has more to do with the abilities of the elves, and of living in the blessed realms under the holy trees.


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## Reddan (Jun 5, 2014)

Akabara Strauss said:


> Unrestricted Olorin should be able to take this.
> 
> As for Sauron he has always been presented as one of the strongest, if not outright strongest, of the maiar.  And maia has some great feats like Osse raising Numenor, or Melian fencing Doriath with an enchantment that only Morgoth could have broken. Powerscaling should put him at those levels at least,
> 
> Balrogs are Melkors elite bodyguards, they were powerful enough to wound Ungoliant and drive her away, Them dying to the likes of Glorgindel and Etchellion has more to do with the abilities of the elves, and of living in the blessed realms under the holy trees.



Sauron was strong for a Maiar, but he is never portrayed as close to the outright strongest. Osse, Arien and Eonwe are far beyond his power and more suited to combat. Melian seemed to be his equal, whilst Luthien was greater than him.

With Maiar you cannot use one Maiar for powerscaling, because as I said they have different powers. Sauron was not a fighter, but obviously when he decided to fight he was incredibly powerful, but fighting was not where his skills lay. 

The battledome is focused on combat skills and that was not Sauron's strong point not Gandalf's. This does not mean that they are weak combat wise. Sauron cannot raise an island up anymore than Osse can create the one ring.


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## Reddan (Jun 5, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Yet even in his fight against fingolfin, where his physical might had greatly declined, he was capable of hitting hard enough to cause magma to erupt from his strikes, if I recall correctly. Morgoth's power, even in person, was very small.
> 
> Galadriel is an elf lord of the same order as Feanor, who was a threat even to melkor, though she couldn't quite claim that power.


Feanor was never a threat to Melkor. Melkor had greater power than all the Valar. Even when he spent the vast majority of his power he still was greater than any elf. In pure combat terms, Fingolfin was superior to both Galadriel and Feanor.


> Nonetheless, however author statement has outright said Sauron approached his master in power, and neither galadriel nor Elrond could claim to be a threat to him even together - Saying they'd be able to defeat him easily is a bit presumptuous, to say the least.


No he never said that. The quote you are remembering is this one.

*Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth ? hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings*

Sauron could make use of Morgoth's power to perform sorcery without diminishing himself. This is obviously not something Morgoth had the luxury of doing. Elrond and Galadriel would be a huge threat to him in person, since even both are more powerful than either Gil-galad or Elendil. If those two took down Sauron when he had the ring then it would be much worse for him against these two without it.


> Even they're capable of taking on several hundred orcs and coming out the victor rather easily, however, if I recall the end of return of the king correctly.


Do you mean Galadriel and Elrond?


> Sauron's personal feats include the physical might that held the tower of Barad-dur together, being able to mindrape over time with or without the ring and compelling an entire army of servants to his whim.


Sadly these don't help him in a fight against a strong mentally capable opponent. This is the sort of power, which does not lend itself to the battledome. Things like stopping the flow of time, making men effectively immortal, summoning spirits, placing spirits into stone objects, creating werewovles etc are brilliant as a show of power, but don't help when faced with say Hurin Thalion one on one.


> Just because one's skill lies in creating things doesn't mean that can't also be applied to battle - otherwise I doubt many of the maia would have joined the vala in order to fight, or that many of the vala themselves would be skilled enough to battle morgoth - if we apply that to the Valar, for instance, some of them should be useless because their skill doesn't lie in a physical element that could be easily exploited, yet I doubt any of the valar were useless in combat.


I never said they would be useless, but it would be significantly to their primary skill. An example of this is that Tulkas was never one of the more powerful of the Valar. Yet he was the greatest warrior out of the bunch. All the other Valar together could not beat Morgoth, but Tulkas did. In a fight Tulkas would beat any of the Valar, but his power is inferior to most of the others and notably weaker than Morgoth's. 


> To also point out, Gandalf, who's power didn't really lie in destruction, managed to best a balrog who's powers certainly would lie in destruction specifically - they were morgoth's elite soldiers and capable of besting most opponents one-on-one and taking out some high/top-tiers in numbers. they're clearly capable of applying their power in numerous ways.


Yes, their power specialising in something else does not make them useless at combat. Gandalf's combat ability is inferior to his wisdom. Sauron's combat skills are inferior to his main skill set and the same for Saruman. Again this does not mean they cannot fight, but their primary skills have to be taken into consideration.

Eonwe is not only appears to be the outright most powerful o the Maiar he is also the main warrior. It's said that nobody could match him in skill of arms. 


> I will agree that Sauron had a good chance of losing in-story to the white council if they combined their power by the time of the war of the ring - he was very diminished from his old strength, and while I do believe Galadriel, at least, was beginning to diminish at that point as well, 2 Istari, a noldo from the first age, and Elrond would be more than enough to have a fighting chance.


The White Council had more than that. As said the problem in the 3rd Age is Sauron's army. It's not like he will come out and fight. To get to him they would have to face the Nazgul other wights, sorcerers and hundreds of thousands of orcs.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 5, 2014)

The ODC saga continues.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 5, 2014)

> Fingolfin
> Superior to Fe?nor

what


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## AgentAAA (Jun 5, 2014)

holding up Barad-dur, specifically, does apply to his combat strength, because that's a feat one can apply physics to and come up with a high energy value. especially when one realizes that's not him at full-power applying that.
He also sang in order to bewitch Finrod if I recall correctly, though it's been some time since last I read the Silmarillion. That's something that had a direct application and worked on an elf-lord of all things.

Feanor I'd disagree with - while he wasn't quite as skilled as fingolfin, more likely than not, he was nonetheless a very powerful fighter and if I recall the book correctly it took several balrogs working in concert to actually slay him. He was consistently stated as the greatest elf to ever exist, and managed to terrify even Melkor on occasion. whether or not he's as good as fingolfin is up for debate, but I'd argue they're at least on a comparable level.

I'm confused by your argument at this point, however - If Gandalf's strength is inferior in combat to his wisdom, that doesn't negate the showing of actually BEATING the Balrog, meaning the hypersonic scaling would apply. It would just mean that Gandalf's a very powerful maiar to beat one of the high-tiers of his verse when combat wasn't his specialty AND he was heavily restricted in power at the time. Meaning the hypersonic balrog scaling still applies.

Sauron, on the other hand, I already stated merely approached his master's lowest point in power.
That low point was still the version of morgoth that fought fingolfin and hit the earth so hard Lava flowed out from it when he did so. If Sauron's close to that, while Galadriel and Elrond together would be something to fear with the ring, by themselves he should win in either engagement.

Without the ring, it's a different matter entirely - at the same time, his personal power was definitely beyond anything someone not from the white council could approach even as a shadow of his former self.

The reason he was scary at that point, however, did have more to do with the power of his armies, and the fact that all things considered, Sauron had quite the tactical mind. Nonetheless, he was gradually gaining back much of his old strength, even without the ring in his grasp yet, and that was one of the growing concerns on people's mind in the Third Age.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 5, 2014)

Reddan said:


> In a fight Tulkas would beat any of the Valar, but his power is inferior to most of the others and notably weaker than Morgoth's.



Only in ODC land this would make sense.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 5, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Sauron, on the other hand, I already stated merely approached his master's lowest point in power.
> That low point was still the version of morgoth that fought fingolfin and hit the earth so hard Lava flowed out from it when he did so. If Sauron's close to that, while Galadriel and Elrond together would be something to fear with the ring, by themselves he should win in either engagement..



If you take _The Lost Road_ as canon, or at least, partially canon showing of Sauron power, he conjured a tsunami to troll the Numenorean fleet.
This is well within his might, considering he used a volcanic eruption as something akin to a flag IIRC.

But according to our dear ODC Arednad, this is power and power is not useful in combat situations.


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## KaiserWombat (Jun 5, 2014)

Now now, Louis

No need to target Arednad/Reddan himself in the posts with the ODC reference: that'll just lead to eventual problems outside of a fictional debate discussion for all parties involved 

Though I have to say, I don't see what discussing Feanor, Fingolfin and Melkor has to do with discussing a far weaker entity in Gandalf, whether as Grey or as White.


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## Red Angel (Jun 5, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> If you take _The Lost Road_ as canon, or at least, partially canon showing of Sauron power, he conjured a tsunami to troll the Numenorean fleet.
> This is well within his might, considering he used a volcanic eruption as something akin to a flag IIRC.
> 
> But according to our dear ODC Arednad, *this is power and power is not useful in combat situations*.



No, it poetic language. Duh


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 5, 2014)

I'll restrain myself, I promise. 



KaiserWombat said:


> Though I have to say, I don't see what discussing Feanor, Fingolfin and Melkor has to do with discussing a far weaker entity in Gandalf, whether as Grey or as White.


Probably because unrestricted Gandalf is in one scenario. 

Trying to quantify him however, is pretty iffy. He can, obviously, do better than his White counterpart and he's a spirit who doesn't need a body to interact with the material world, but we know nothing besides this.

Although, we could probably make a case of Ol?rin being stronger than weakened Sauron, but he did _fear_ coming to Middle-Earth because he was afraid of Sauron's power.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 5, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> I'll restrain myself, I promise.
> 
> 
> Probably because unrestricted Gandalf is in one scenario.
> ...



If I recall correctly, it started over a discussion of whether gandalf was really hypersonic.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

KaiserWombat said:


> Now now, Louis
> 
> No need to target Arednad/Reddan himself in the posts with the ODC reference: that'll just lead to eventual problems outside of a fictional debate discussion for all parties involved
> 
> Though I have to say, I don't see what discussing Feanor, Fingolfin and Melkor has to do with discussing a far weaker entity in Gandalf, whether as Grey or as White.



Well it stemmed from your calculation about Balrogs somehow being hypersonic. 

Not being rude, but it's an awful proposition based on wishful thinking. To have any idea of speed we need distance and the time they covered the distance. Out of no where you pluck a time frame of 1 or 10 minutes. You have no evidence for this except randomly choosing the number.

When beings like Morgoth and Ungoliant clash the fight can last days. The Balrogs could have easily taken several hours to get there. Not to mention the calculation is just not supported by anything else in the test.

The Lost Road is not canon, because it is something Tolkien gave up on. It comes from the time when Tolkien was writing a story about time travel back to Numenor. The legend completely changed as did a number of things.

The Balrogs became far fewer, down to 3 or so and much, much more powerful. Gothmog was no longer the son of Morgoth and Morgoth no longer used mechanical dragons.

As a last point Feanor and Fingolfin and not vastly superior to Gandalf the White. In fact the text implies they are weaker than him. Glorfindel, Galadriel and Elrond were a match for any of the First Age Elves, but Gandalf the White was still more powerful than them. He had his powers raised by Eru himself to complete his mission.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Well it stemmed from your calculation about Balrogs somehow being hypersonic.
> 
> Not being rude, but it's an awful proposition based on wishful thinking. To have any idea of speed we need distance and the time they covered the distance. Out of no where you pluck a time frame of 1 or 10 minutes. You have no evidence for this except randomly choosing the number.
> 
> ...



Going to let the other people talk about the calcs - though I disagree regarding the speed, and the silmarillion officially chronicles that part, so it should be canon - but back on-topic...

Wasn't it that Gandalf's power was less reduced, rather than raised, as an istari? If Gandalf was more powerful than Fingolfin and Feanor... that's getting into first-age power levels that'd likely put him far ahead of what seems to be accomplishable for any middle-earth being. Fingolfin was capable of fighting Morgoth evenly, a Vala that should be much stronger even in his weakest form than any Maia, and only lost due to exhaustion of his mortal body and the simple fact that morgoth could not be slain(though effectively, he removed him from ever fighting directly again from a mix of injuries and fear, so in a way, I suppose he did defeat him).
Feanor was stated to be more or less the strongest elf repeatedly in the texts, with a fire unequaled, taking no less than four balrogs to finally be slain, and even then after a hard fight and using a strike to his back. (again, if I'm remembering incorrectly, correct me.)
At that level of power he'd likely be above Sauron WITH the ring, and the west would not have a problem.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Going to let the other people talk about the calcs - though I disagree regarding the speed, and the silmarillion officially chronicles that part, so it should be canon - but back on-topic...
> 
> Wasn't it that Gandalf's power was less reduced, rather than raised, as an istari? If Gandalf was more powerful than Fingolfin and Feanor... that's getting into first-age power levels that'd likely put him far ahead of what seems to be accomplishable for any middle-earth being. Fingolfin was capable of fighting Morgoth evenly, a Vala that should be much stronger even in his weakest form than any Maia, and only lost due to exhaustion of his mortal body and the simple fact that morgoth could not be slain(though effectively, he removed him from ever fighting directly again from a mix of injuries and fear, so in a way, I suppose he did defeat him).
> Feanor was stated to be more or less the strongest elf repeatedly in the texts, with a fire unequaled, taking no less than four balrogs to finally be slain, and even then after a hard fight and using a strike to his back. (again, if I'm remembering incorrectly, correct me.)
> At that level of power he'd likely be above Sauron WITH the ring, and the west would not have a problem.


No it seemed that he was actually enhanced as well, because the Valar's plan had failed. I don't understand the obsession some have with the first age elves. They are not completely wiped out.

Galadriel was always a rival and of similar power to Feanor. She spent large parts of her life thwarting him. By the 3rd Age with the use of the ring she has grown stronger.

Glorfindel for instance was already one of the most powerful elves in the first age having slain a balrog, but in the 3rd age his powers have greatly been enhanced. 

Galadriel, Glorfindel and Elrond are already in the same ballpark as Feanor and Fingolfin. Feanor was not in the same power range as Sauron with the One Ring. I repeat Galadriel and Feanor were rivals and enemies. 

As for the most powerful elf this is without doubt Luthien, who does things that even the most powerful of Maiar can only dream about. She put the whole of Angband to sleep.

Fingolfin fought Morgoth, but he was not Melkor at that point. He had spent a lot of his power. By the end of the First Age in a a personal fight, there was little difference between Sauron and Morgoth. 

People have this idolised view on the First Age. Yes there were more powerful beings about and there were a lot more powerful people in general. However, they underestimate the elves that still stuck around. 

The elves have declined, because there are simply not enough powerful ones left.  It's the Numenoreans, who have really declined. Aragorn the greatest and best Numenorean since Elendur, Isildur's son. Yet in terms of physical abilities he is like a foot shorter than his ancestors and weaker in will. and magic.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> The Lost Road is not canon, because it is something Tolkien gave up on. It comes from the time when Tolkien was writing a story about time travel back to Numenor. The legend completely changed as did a number of things.


No shit, Sherlock.

Sauron's power did not change much. 

But according to your 10/10 logic, power is not useful in battle.
Who cares if if he has enough elemental control to cause volcanic eruptions, trigger tidal waves of hilarious proportions or control storms, or if he have the ability to cloud entire cities with an aura of terror. 
All of this is irrelevant, what matters is what He can do with a fookin' sword. 

Missing the point several times _is_ a common thing to you, it seems.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> No shit, Sherlock.
> 
> Sauron's power did not change much.
> 
> ...



Provide canonical statements to prove your point and then I might take him seriously. It would make Sauron a complete idiot if he was capable of doing all the things you claim and never used them on Gondor.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

> The smoky blur of the mountains in the East was lost in a deeper blackness that was already reaching out westwards with long arms. There was a distant mutter of thunder borne on the rising breeze. Frodo sniffed the air and looked up doubtfully at the sky.





> The hurrying darkness, now gathering great speed, rushed up from the East and swallowed the sky. There was a dry splitting crack of thunder right overhead. Searing lightning smote down into the hills. Then came a blast of savage wind, and with it, mingling with its roar, there came a high shrill shriek. The hobbits had heard just such a cry far away in the Marish as they fled from Hobbiton, and even there in the woods of the Shire it had frozen their blood. Out here in the waste its terror was far greater: it pierced them with cold blades of horror and despair, stopping heart and breath. Sam fell flat on his face. Involuntarily Frodo loosed his hold and put his hands over his head and ears. He swayed, slipped, and slithered downwards with a wailing cry.





> 'And I'm thinking that I won't spend a moment longer than I need stuck up on this edge with the eyes of the Dark Country looking over the marshes,' said Frodo.
> 
> With that he stood up and went down to the bottom of the gully again. He looked out. Clear sky was growing in the East once more. The skirts of the storm were lifting, ragged and wet, and the main battle had passed to spread its great wings over the Emyn Muil; upon which the dark thought of Sauron brooded for a while. Thence it turned, smiting the Vale of Anduin with hail and lightning, and casting its shadow upon Minas Tirith with threat of war. Then, lowering in the mountains, and gathering its great spires, it rolled on slowly over Gondor and the skirts of Rohan, until far away the Riders on the plain saw its black towers moving behind the sun, as they rode into the West. But here, over the desert and the reeking marshes the deep blue sky of evening opened once more, and a few pallid stars appeared, like small white holes in the canopy above the crescent moon.





> For nigh on two years after the Dagor Bragollach the Noldor still
> defended the western pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of
> Ulmo was in that water, and Minas Tirith withstood the Orcs. But at length,
> after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants
> ...



Trying to find the quote of the Volcano tho.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

Still waiting for him creating tidal waves or forcing volcanoes to erupt like you said. You will be trying a long time. 

He did cloud Minas Tirith in darkness, but this took time and preparation. Things like this are not done at the drop of a hat. 

We have seen Sauron defeated in physical combat several times. Huan, Numenor/Elves, Last Alliace and then the White Council. We know what his limits are.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Still waiting for him creating tidal waves or forcing volcanoes to erupt like you said. You will be trying a long time.


The Tidal Wave was from Lost Road, which is well within his power.  Elrond and Gandalf did something similar once.
Pretty sure he made Mount Doom erupt before he attacked Gondor in the Second Age (That's how it gained the name "Mount Doom" in first place). I can't remember if it was mentioned in the history or one of the appendices.
I will concede the Volcano thing until I remember where the quote is.



> He did cloud Minas Tirith in darkness, but this took time and preparation. Things like this are not done at the drop of a hat.


I pretty sure this event is not the one you are thinking of.

......I....I, are you really this dumb? I just posted a quote of him controlling a massive storm with no problem whatsoever.



> We have seen Sauron defeated in physical combat several times. Huan, Numenor/Elves, Last Alliace and then the White Council. We know what his limits are.


More like you are a downplayer.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Still waiting for him creating tidal waves or forcing volcanoes to erupt like you said. You will be trying a long time.
> 
> He did cloud Minas Tirith in darkness, but this took time and preparation. Things like this are not done at the drop of a hat.
> 
> We have seen Sauron defeated in physical combat several times. Huan, Numenor/Elves, Last Alliace and then the White Council. We know what his limits are.



Huan was a hound of the Valar and losing to him isn't exactly a problem. Nunemorians are comparable to elves, and elves are capable of doing things like landing blows on morgoth, and have in the past been able to reach levels comparable to Maia. There's a reason the first-born's power is considered terrifying.
Gil-galad was an elf-lord and Elendil a king of the nunemoreans. Again, losing to them doesn't bring him down any tiers. Nor is losing to a conglomeration of the white council, which is basically the last group of the first-agers that all are far past the limits of what was normally seen in the third age - which even then had somewhat superhuman combatants.

Though, I'll point out Fingolfin beating Morgoth still puts him as the only one capable of soloing sauron amongst the elves in the verse. Sauron only approached morgoth's power when he had the ring.

Also to point out, it's possible Earendil had came close to the Valar's power, given he slew Ancalagon the black, and he along with the other dragons were powerful enough to drive them back. Ancalagon by himself is a great showing of Morgoth's power given his actual size.

In any case, getting back to the discussion - Galadriel did thwart Feanor at times, but if I remember the older books correctly... Feanor was an idiot and in some ways I wonder if Anakin's character in star wars wasn't inspired by him. He was a being with great power that allowed his baser emotions to guide him and refused to ever show humility or apologize for his actions, considering himself as always and constantly right. This also made him easy to manipulate and while he had skill and intellect, he never really had the focus or wisdom to exercise them well. 

Though if you can find a passage that notes them as equal, be my guest, but even with her ring of power, I'll admit I doubt Galadriel ever matched the maker of the silmarils themselves. Though her and Elrond beating back an orc raiding party numbering in the hundreds certainly puts her far up [not to mention breaking Dol Guldur with physical strength], and she's likely to be able to beat Sauron personally if he doesn't have the one ring empowering him.(How Sauron lost to Isildur after defeating Elendil and Gil-galad I'll never understand...)

In any case, I  don't think Gandalf's powers were enhanced so much as he was given the istari leader's mantle, which I do believe gave that member of the order more access to the full maia powers they had, but I have no problem with the idea of that being the case and if you can bring up a passage that states this is now the case I would actually be glad to see Gandalf get some powerscaling boosts.

I'm also wondering why Glorfindel would be significantly stronger in the third age - not that he needs to be, mind, beating a balrog without dying puts him ahead of Gandalf in his grey visage at least, and possibly equal to him in his white, though I'd say Gandalf's knowledge, wisdom and skill would put him ahead in a confrontation.

regarding the third age - yes, you're correct, the people from the first age in that era are very strong. The reason the first age is put ahead is because back then there were many stronger, several balrogs at least, and things like the winged dragons. This isn't even counting the fact that Morgoth had massive wingless dragons like Glaurung the golden who were an army to themselves.
Albeit, in the third age, some people really don't give Aragorn and co. enough credit. They're nothing compared to the first age, but they are mildly superhuman, with things like Aragorn cutting through iron armor and their endurance feat running across the plains.

The reason Feanor is considered strongest is more or less the hype that Tolkien gave him - he was consistently stated to be the strongest noldo in mind and body, but his emotions really took their toll on his actual power.

As for Luthien... putting her somewhere near Fingolfin, above or below, does make sense with her sleep feat. I'm not sure if she totally counts as an elf given she's half-maia though(and a maia as powerful as Melian at that)


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

This entire debate is derailed to the point I'm not even sure what are we arguing anymore.
I summon thee, Wombat.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> The Tidal Wave was from Lost Road, which is well within his power.  Elrond and Gandalf did something similar once.
> Pretty sure he made Mount Doom erupt before he attacked Gondor in the Second Age (That's how it gained the name "Mount Doom" in first place). I can't remember if it was mentioned in the history or one of the appendices.
> I will concede the Volcano thing until I remember where the quote is.


No it's not well within his power or else he would have done so. Elrond solely caused the Bruinen to flood, Gandalf caused it to take the shape of horses and added some boulders. Now this was some heavy duty magic from Elrond and Gandalf. Elrond being one of the most powerful elves(though he is not) to ever live. 


> I pretty sure this event is not the one you are thinking of.
> 
> ......I....I, are you really this dumb? I just posted a quote of him controlling a massive storm with no problem whatsoever.


Yes it is. Prior to the attack on Minas Tirith, Sauron shrouds Eastern Gondor in darkness. It's only at the crowing of the cockerel that dawn is seen for some time. It's one of the greatest moments in the book and an act from the Valar. The dark clouds are blown away and finally they get day light. The same wind also happened to blow Aragorn to the battle as quickly as possible. 


> More like you are a downplayer.


Why would I want to downplay something I love? I don't want to see things misrepresented, because that's not what Tolkien intended. If Sauron could do half the things you claim then he would have taken Minas Tirith thousands of years ago.

Also it must be noted that certain places and even certain materials are more corrupted with Morgoth's power than others. Mount Doom for instance was a place full of Morgoth's power. Gold was a material especially effected. Water of all sorts though had the least taint. 

So at certain places evil creatures would be stronger. At the same time at certain places the good will be stronger, because their is less of Morgoth's presence and more of Ulmo.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> No it's not well within his power or else he would have done so. Elrond solely caused the Bruinen to flood, Gandalf caused it to take the shape of horses and added some boulders. Now this was some heavy duty magic from Elrond and Gandalf. Elrond being one of the most powerful elves(though he is not) to ever live.


Are you implying Elrond is more proficient in magic than Sauron? 



> Yes it is. Prior to the attack on Minas Tirith, Sauron shrouds Eastern Gondor in darkness. It's only at the crowing of the cockerel that dawn is seen for some time. It's one of the greatest moments in the book and an act from the Valar. The dark clouds are blown away and finally they get day light. The same wind also happened to blow Aragorn to the battle as quickly as possible.



What the bloody fuck are you talking about. The "cloud of fear" is from the Silmarillion. 
Unless you are talking about the storm he is controlling, but whatever you are trying to argue here, it wouldn't matter whatsoever.
Quotes supporting your argument are also requested.


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## Reddan (Jun 6, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Huan was a hound of the Valar and losing to him isn't exactly a problem. Nunemorians are comparable to elves, and elves are capable of doing things like landing blows on morgoth, and have in the past been able to reach levels comparable to Maia. There's a reason the first-born's power is considered terrifying.
> Gil-galad was an elf-lord and Elendil a king of the nunemoreans. Again, losing to them doesn't bring him down any tiers. Nor is losing to a conglomeration of the white council, which is basically the last group of the first-agers that all are far past the limits of what was normally seen in the third age - which even then had somewhat superhuman combatants.


I never said it brought him down a tier, but he had a consistent level. 


> Though, I'll point out Fingolfin beating Morgoth still puts him as the only one capable of soloing sauron amongst the elves in the verse. Sauron only approached morgoth's power when he had the ring.


Fingolfin did not beat Morgoth, though he lost. If any elf was capable of taking down Sauron it would be him and if any Half-Elven it would be Earendil. Hurin would be the choice for men.


> Also to point out, it's possible Earendil had came close to the Valar's power, given he slew Ancalagon the black, and he along with the other dragons were powerful enough to drive them back. Ancalagon by himself is a great showing of Morgoth's power given his actual size.


No elf will ever get close to the power of the Valar. They are just inherently much, much more powerful than elves. Earendil was a unique character, though, the child of prophecy. He was named the most powerful of the Half-Elven and killing Ancalagon is an example of how strong he was. In certain accounts he was the one that would kill Ungoliant too and countless other monsters of Morgoth.

Ancalagon is just an example of what Morgoth could do. His power was greater than any character in LOTR. However, creating beings like Ancalagon weakened him to the point that his individual power was on a similar level to Sauron's.


> In any case, getting back to the discussion - Galadriel did thwart Feanor at times, but if I remember the older books correctly... Feanor was an idiot and in some ways I wonder if Anakin's character in star wars wasn't inspired by him. He was a being with great power that allowed his baser emotions to guide him and refused to ever show humility or apologize for his actions, considering himself as always and constantly right. This also made him easy to manipulate and while he had skill and intellect, he never really had the focus or wisdom to exercise them well.


 Feanor was not always wise, but he was no idiot. He was a genius and I am not sure anyone ever managed to really manipulate him except his wife. He acted on his emotions and was overly prideful. However, he is the only known elf to have a stepmother. 


> Though if you can find a passage that notes them as equal, be my guest, but even with her ring of power, I'll admit I doubt Galadriel ever matched the maker of the silmarils themselves. Though her and Elrond beating back an orc raiding party numbering in the hundreds certainly puts her far up [not to mention breaking Dol Guldur with physical strength], and she's likely to be able to beat Sauron personally if he doesn't have the one ring empowering him.(How Sauron lost to Isildur after defeating Elendil and Gil-galad I'll never understand...)


Galadriel even with the ring probably would not be able to defeat Sauron in a conest of magic, since the ring would want to help Sauron. Without the ring she could not do it. 

Sauron never actually lost to Isildur. He lost to Gil-galad and Elendil. It seems they had some kind of final duel. Gil-galad had his face burnt by Sauron and Elendil died breaking Narsil. However, Sauron's body was killed at this point. Isildur then took the shards of Narsil and cut the ring from the floored Sauron.

In any case, I  don't think Gandalf's powers were enhanced so much as he was given the istari leader's mantle, which I do believe gave that member of the order more access to the full maia powers they had, but I have no problem with the idea of that being the case and if you can bring up a passage that states this is now the case I would actually be glad to see Gandalf get some powerscaling boosts.


> I'm also wondering why Glorfindel would be significantly stronger in the third age - not that he needs to be, mind, beating a balrog without dying puts him ahead of Gandalf in his grey visage at least, and possibly equal to him in his white, though I'd say Gandalf's knowledge, wisdom and skill would put him ahead in a confrontation.


Gandalf seems quite confident that in his White Form he is more powerful than anyone in Middle Earth except for Sauron. Glorfindel gets rewarded for his special sacrifice. He saved Earendil, who was key to defeating Morgoth and only rebelled due to kinship with Turgon. As a result he was raised up in power so he was close to the same level as Olorin.


> regarding the third age - yes, you're correct, the people from the first age in that era are very strong. The reason the first age is put ahead is because back then there were many stronger, several balrogs at least, and things like the winged dragons. This isn't even counting the fact that Morgoth had massive wingless dragons like Glaurung the golden who were an army to themselves.
> Albeit, in the third age, some people really don't give Aragorn and co. enough credit. They're nothing compared to the first age, but they are mildly superhuman, with things like Aragorn cutting through iron armor and their endurance feat running across the plains.


Yes, that's precisely why the First Age was so strong. Just look at the Noldor royal family in the 3rd Age. Elrond, Galadriel, Arwen and the Sons of Elrond. Now compare that in the First Age when Feanor, 7 sons, Fingolfin, Turgon, Fingon, Orodreth, Aredhel, Galadriel, Idril, Celebrimbor, etc were all about. There were just a lot more powerful people about.

Though in the case of the Balrogs, their power was greatly increased, but their numbers reduced to around 3-7, with Tolkien noting that there was no need for there to be more than 3. The dragons obviously were a great threat. It cannot be underestimated that they were able to drive the Host of Valinor back including the likes of Eonwe. 


> The reason Feanor is considered strongest is more or less the hype that Tolkien gave him - he was consistently stated to be the strongest noldo in mind and body, but his emotions really took their toll on his actual power.
> 
> As for Luthien... putting her somewhere near Fingolfin, above or below, does make sense with her sleep feat. I'm not sure if she totally counts as an elf given she's half-maia though(and a maia as powerful as Melian at that)



Tolkien counts her as an elf and when he speaks on greatness, which is not necessarily power, he ranks her first with Feanor and Galadriel rounding up the top three.

EDIT

I don't know much about comics, but I think Sauron would be similar to a Dr Doom or Mr Fantastic. They are formidable in a fight, but their true power lies in their brains and what they can create.  

Osse is more like a Namor and Eonwe a Thor to Sauron's Dr Doom.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 6, 2014)

Reddan said:


> I never said it brought him down a tier, but he had a consistent level.
> 
> Fingolfin did not beat Morgoth, though he lost. If any elf was capable of taking down Sauron it would be him and if any Half-Elven it would be Earendil. Hurin would be the choice for men.


Which was only due to exhaustion, and the fact Morgoth could not die at that time. That's the only actual reason. If I recall, no living being, Valar included, could - hence why they threw him to the void. He wasn't allowed to die till the prophesied time. He was nonetheless faster than morgoth, strong enough to inflict seven severe wounds, and overall dominate the whole match until his stamina fell. this against an ancient being who's physical attacks caused gouts in the earth that went far down enough Lava spewed out.
Sauron, to my knowledge, doesn't have the same protection his master would, and would likely fall to seven good strikes.
Earendil probably would take Sauron High-diff. Hurin is iffy but an argument could probably be made either way.




Reddan said:


> No elf will ever get close to the power of the Valar. They are just inherently much, much more powerful than elves. Earendil was a unique character, though, the child of prophecy. He was named the most powerful of the Half-Elven and killing Ancalagon is an example of how strong he was. In certain accounts he was the one that would kill Ungoliant too and countless other monsters of Morgoth.


And Ungoliant was powerful enough to harm Morgoth himself. Many elves at least hit high-maiar tier, and he is amongst them. And beating a being capable of pushing back the valar is pretty high as far as achievements go - the thing was capable of standing on mountains, for goodness sake.



Reddan said:


> Ancalagon is just an example of what Morgoth could do. His power was greater than any character in LOTR. However, creating beings like Ancalagon weakened him to the point that his individual power was on a similar level to Sauron's.


On a level of Sauron's WITH the ring, which is a very high-tier and a level of strength no one ever beat single-handedly.



Reddan said:


> Feanor was not always wise, but he was no idiot. He was a genius and I am not sure anyone ever managed to really manipulate him except his wife. He acted on his emotions and was overly prideful. However, he is the only known elf to have a stepmother.


If I recall, Morgoth played on his pride and encouraged him to forge blades. It has been a while, but I do recall something of that sort. My point of him being an idiot was more pointing to the fact his impulsiveness made him do rash and morally questionable decisions that caused grave consequence.


> Galadriel even with the ring probably would not be able to defeat Sauron in a conest of magic, since the ring would want to help Sauron. Without the ring she could not do it.


nothing here to inherently disagree with, though even using Vanya she probably couldn't beat sauron with the one ring even if it worked for her.



Reddan said:


> Sauron never actually lost to Isildur. He lost to Gil-galad and Elendil. It seems they had some kind of final duel. Gil-galad had his face burnt by Sauron and Elendil died breaking Narsil. However, Sauron's body was killed at this point. Isildur then took the shards of Narsil and cut the ring from the floored Sauron.


 Bah, movies appear to have made me forget that point. Apologies.





Reddan said:


> Gandalf seems quite confident that in his White Form he is more powerful than anyone in Middle Earth except for Sauron. Glorfindel gets rewarded for his special sacrifice. He saved Earendil, who was key to defeating Morgoth and only rebelled due to kinship with Turgon. As a result he was raised up in power so he was close to the same level as Olorin.


Mind stating anything for quotes regarding that? I might have just forgotten the passage.
If that's the case, he'd get scaled to Galadriel's feat of breaking Dol Guldur with physical strength, however, amongst other things.
Doesn't necessarily put him above his Maia self, though, since Olorin was considered pretty awesome and one of the favorite maia for the elves to seek counsel with back in the day.

[qupte]
Yes, that's precisely why the First Age was so strong. Just look at the Noldor royal family in the 3rd Age. Elrond, Galadriel, Arwen and the Sons of Elrond. Now compare that in the First Age when Feanor, 7 sons, Fingolfin, Turgon, Fingon, Orodreth, Aredhel, Galadriel, Idril, Celebrimbor, etc were all about. There were just a lot more powerful people about.
[/quote]



> Though in the case of the Balrogs, their power was greatly increased, but their numbers reduced to around 3-7, with Tolkien noting that there was no need for there to be more than 3. The dragons obviously were a great threat. It cannot be underestimated that they were able to drive the Host of Valinor back including the likes of Eonwe.


Which is precisely why Earendil was such a champ for defeating Ancalagon(though even just by size Ancalagon makes Earendil have one of the highest DC feats in the verse)



> Tolkien counts her as an elf and when he speaks on greatness, which is not necessarily power, he ranks her first with Feanor and Galadriel rounding up the top three.


Yes, but she doesn't really show what elven blood by itself is able to achieve, was my point.
Other than that, I agree.



Reddan said:


> EDIT
> 
> I don't know much about comics, but I think Sauron would be similar to a Dr Doom or Mr Fantastic. They are formidable in a fight, but their true power lies in their brains and what they can create.
> 
> Osse is more like a Namor and Eonwe a Thor to Sauron's Dr Doom.



both Dr. Doom and Mr. Fantastic are very formidable in a fight. to the point they can take on people like thor or namor and keep the fight fairly even as well, at least in Dr. Doom's case.
Sauron's true strength lies in his brains, tactical ability, and what he can create. but what he did create - the ring of power - brings up his raw power quite a bit, to the point that it was feared above all else at the time.
Heck, with the ring he should honestly be scaled to the mind-break the ring is capable of as well.


----------



## Reddan (Jun 11, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Are you implying Elrond is more proficient in magic than Sauron?


Overall no, but Elrond was at the peak of Elvish magical ability.  Certain elves surpassed high level Maiar at certain aspects. 


> What the bloody fuck are you talking about. The "cloud of fear" is from the Silmarillion.
> Unless you are talking about the storm he is controlling, but whatever you are trying to argue here, it wouldn't matter whatsoever.
> Quotes supporting your argument are also requested.


If you want a quote for anything I have said just be a bit more precise and I will provide it.


----------



## Reddan (Jun 11, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Which was only due to exhaustion, and the fact Morgoth could not die at that time. That's the only actual reason. If I recall, no living being, Valar included, could - hence why they threw him to the void. He wasn't allowed to die till the prophesied time. He was nonetheless faster than morgoth, strong enough to inflict seven severe wounds, and overall dominate the whole match until his stamina fell. this against an ancient being who's physical attacks caused gouts in the earth that went far down enough Lava spewed out.


He plain lost, whatever the reason. He was outclassed and beaten.

In Tolkien's world like with Catholic belief, the soul is immortal. This means that no-one can kill another soul except for Eru. However, incarnate beings like Humans, elves etc can have their body destroyed and become powerless spirits. Now usually the Valar/Maiar are not tied to the physical body, but if they want to control the physical world they become bound to physical bodies. Morgoth gave up his ability to turn into a spirit to control the world. By the time he fought Fingolfin he could be 'killed' in the sense that his body would die and he would become a weak spirit much like what happened with Sauron and Saruman.

The difference between Morgoth and Sauron is that Morgoth would eventualy be able to use the earth to regain his power, but Fingolfin could have killed him in a real sense and that is why he was afraid.

There was no prophecy about Morgoth's death. He could have been killed at any point and I repeat that is why he was afraid and a coward.


> Sauron, to my knowledge, doesn't have the same protection his master would, and would likely fall to seven good strikes.
> Earendil probably would take Sauron High-diff. Hurin is iffy but an argument could probably be made either way.


Earendil has greater feats than Fingolfin and Sauron was in the exact same boat as Morgoth during his battle with Fingolfin. The only difference is that Sauron was weaker.


> And Ungoliant was powerful enough to harm Morgoth himself. Many elves at least hit high-maiar tier, and he is amongst them. And beating a being capable of pushing back the valar is pretty high as far as achievements go - the thing was capable of standing on mountains, for goodness sake.


No apart from Luthien and possibly Earendil I don't think any elves reached the level of the higher Maiar. Other elves outclassed the Maiar in certain aspects, but not overall. Melian, Sauron, Eonwe, Arien and Osse were above any of the elves. 


> On a level of Sauron's WITH the ring, which is a very high-tier and a level of strength no one ever beat single-handedly.


Well that's because he never fought anyone strong enough to beat him. As said I don't fancy his chances against Earendil.


> If I recall, Morgoth played on his pride and encouraged him to forge blades. It has been a while, but I do recall something of that sort. My point of him being an idiot was more pointing to the fact his impulsiveness made him do rash and morally questionable decisions that caused grave consequence.


Fair enough he did many morally questionable and down right evil things. 


> nothing here to inherently disagree with, though even using Vanya she probably couldn't beat sauron with the one ring even if it worked for her.


 Agreed


> Bah, movies appear to have made me forget that point. Apologies.


Best to forget them completely, because they have little to do with the books. 


> Mind stating anything for quotes regarding that? I might have just forgotten the passage.
> If that's the case, he'd get scaled to Galadriel's feat of breaking Dol Guldur with physical strength, however, amongst other things.
> Doesn't necessarily put him above his Maia self, though, since Olorin was considered pretty awesome and one of the favorite maia for the elves to seek counsel with back in the day.


Which quote do you want? 
Just in case I will provide all three.

The quote that Gandalf is more powerful than Galadriel.
*
'And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the dark lord.'*

As for Glorfindel here is the quote.

*'For long years he remained in Valinor , in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had greatly been enhanced by his sacrifice.*

You cannot power scale characters like that, because they have different skills. Just, because Feanor and Galadriel were close to the same power, does not mean they have equal skills. You cannot powerscale Feanor's craftsmanship to Galadriel or give Feanor Galadriel's abilities to read minds. They all have different skills. 


> Which is precisely why Earendil was such a champ for defeating Ancalagon(though even just by size Ancalagon makes Earendil have one of the highest DC feats in the verse)


Yes Earendil was a bit of an exception, being the foretold saviour of Middle Earth


> Yes, but she doesn't really show what elven blood by itself is able to achieve, was my point.
> Other than that, I agree.


I agree again, because several times her ancient divine heritage is brought up when she does something particularly incredibly. 


> both Dr. Doom and Mr. Fantastic are very formidable in a fight. to the point they can take on people like thor or namor and keep the fight fairly even as well, at least in Dr. Doom's case.
> Sauron's true strength lies in his brains, tactical ability, and what he can create. but what he did create - the ring of power - brings up his raw power quite a bit, to the point that it was feared above all else at the time.
> Heck, with the ring he should honestly be scaled to the mind-break the ring is capable of as well.


If Dr Doom and Mr Fantastic can take Namor on in a fight, then my analogy fails. Sauron is not capable of taking Eonwe or Osse in a physical fight, but as a craftsman he can create things like the One Ring, which greatly enhance his power.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jun 11, 2014)

Reddan said:


> He plain lost, whatever the reason. He was outclassed and beaten.
> 
> In Tolkien's world like with Catholic belief, the soul is immortal. This means that no-one can kill another soul except for Eru. However, incarnate beings like Humans, elves etc can have their body destroyed and become powerless spirits. Now usually the Valar/Maiar are not tied to the physical body, but if they want to control the physical world they become bound to physical bodies. Morgoth gave up his ability to turn into a spirit to control the world. By the time he fought Fingolfin he could be 'killed' in the sense that his body would die and he would become a weak spirit much like what happened with Sauron and Saruman.


Last I checked, it was stated that those wounds would have been fatal if Morgoth still wasn't, well, Morgoth, and Fingolfin quickly and repeatedly slipped under Morgoth's guard to strike him not once but seven times, without taking a single hit during that period.
"outclassed" indeed.
These wounds also more or less ruined morgoth for any future engagement, as well, so... in terms of stopping Morgoth from ever taking the field again, the battle would be a success for him.



> The difference between Morgoth and Sauron is that Morgoth would eventualy be able to use the earth to regain his power, but Fingolfin could have killed him in a real sense and that is why he was afraid.
> 
> There was no prophecy about Morgoth's death. He could have been killed at any point and I repeat that is why he was afraid and a coward.


Except that he's prophesied to come back at the time the world ends, if I recall correctly, to start the whole chain of events leading to Tolkien's ragnarok



> Earendil has greater feats than Fingolfin and Sauron was in the exact same boat as Morgoth during his battle with Fingolfin. The only difference is that Sauron was weaker.


Sauron also doesn't have the fact he's a vala to take seven heavy wounds easily.
To point out while we're on the subject, Fingolfin was on the warfront the entire battle preceding his duel while to my knowledge Morgoth was not, so he was fighting with exhaustion right at the start of it, really.



> No apart from Luthien and possibly Earendil I don't think any elves reached the level of the higher Maiar. Other elves outclassed the Maiar in certain aspects, but not overall. Melian, Sauron, Eonwe, Arien and Osse were above any of the elves.


Sauron probably can't be compared to Feanor, since, again, he was repeatedly stated to be the strongest elf in mind and body, and he has decent enough feats to back that hype. It'd be highly difficult either way, however.




> Well that's because he never fought anyone strong enough to beat him. As said I don't fancy his chances against Earendil.


Agreed. One doesn't mess with the elf that took down Ancalagon the Black. which, speaking of superhuman feats, just by Ancalagon's size that's pretty dang superhuman for Earendil.
Sauron was smart enough in general to avoid fights with people he couldn't beat and Earendil is on that list.



> Best to forget them completely, because they have little to do with the books.


Agreed.
12 hours and no Bombadil!



> Which quote do you want?
> Just in case I will provide all three.
> 
> The quote that Gandalf is more powerful than Galadriel.
> ...


Feels like a bit of a throwaway line to powerscale from, but I can't deny that has a bit of weight.




> As for Glorfindel here is the quote.
> 
> *'For long years he remained in Valinor , in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had greatly been enhanced by his sacrifice.*


Fair point, then. I like Glorfindel, so that's more than fine with me.




> You cannot power scale characters like that, because they have different skills. Just, because Feanor and Galadriel were close to the same power, does not mean they have equal skills. You cannot powerscale Feanor's craftsmanship to Galadriel or give Feanor Galadriel's abilities to read minds. They all have different skills.


Physical strength isn't a skill, it's a direct extension of power, and to my knowledge Galadriel's skills generally didn't lie in physically demolishing structures, and was more of a way for her to vent her rage.

Feanor's craftmanship can't be powerscaled to Galadriel because he's got feats making him the best craftsman of middle-earth. Galadriel's ability to read minds can't be powerscaled to Feanor because we have no evidence he bothered learning the skill, but something simply like this physical stat definitely powerscales to stronger beings - unless Galadriel could simply disarm Feanor or Gandalf with one swing just due to the difference in physical strength. Especially given that Feanor was stated to have the strongest body of any elf, if I recall correctly(whether his skill allowed him to actually be far above any other high-tier elf is another debate.)

The comparison here doesn't really work, as strength is a stat, like speed, or durability, while mind-reading and craftmanship are skills, like Energy absorbing, or basket weaving.




> Yes Earendil was a bit of an exception, being the foretold saviour of Middle Earth



Agreed. In all Honesty I doubt even Vala would willingly fight Earendil at this point - Kills Ancalagon the black, possibly beat Ungoliant, the spider that murked melkor at one of his more powerful points in time.... They'd almost certainly win, but if any elf could make it difficult for them, probably him.




> I agree again, because several times her ancient divine heritage is brought up when she does something particularly incredibly.


Alright, we're agreed on that then.



> If Dr Doom and Mr Fantastic can take Namor on in a fight, then my analogy fails. Sauron is not capable of taking Eonwe or Osse in a physical fight, but as a craftsman he can create things like the One Ring, which greatly enhance his power.



with the one ring he should be above basically any Maia save possibly Osse, in all honesty. Even the highest maia should not have been capable of matching Morgoth at his lowest, and Sauron sits around that level of power.
Eonwe in accepted lore probably shouldn't be able to, despite being the most skilled, he wasn't the most powerful - but if we take into account he was meant to slay morgoth in some versions of the tale... Then it's a different ball-game and Sauron will not be running towards but away from Eonwe.


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## Reddan (Jun 12, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Last I checked, it was stated that those wounds would have been fatal if Morgoth still wasn't, well, Morgoth, and Fingolfin quickly and repeatedly slipped under Morgoth's guard to strike him not once but seven times, without taking a single hit during that period.
> "outclassed" indeed.
> These wounds also more or less ruined morgoth for any future engagement, as well, so... in terms of stopping Morgoth from ever taking the field again, the battle would be a success for him.


No those wounds would not have been enough to kill other creatures. Morgoth at that point was severely diminished from what he once was. I am struggling to see how he was not outclassed when he was crushed, had his shield destroyed and his neck broken. 


> Except that he's prophesied to come back at the time the world ends, if I recall correctly, to start the whole chain of events leading to Tolkien's ragnarok


What's the prophecy about his return got anything to do with him dying before that? Not to mention that Tolkien seems to have abandoned this idea. 


> Sauron also doesn't have the fact he's a vala to take seven heavy wounds easily.
> To point out while we're on the subject, Fingolfin was on the warfront the entire battle preceding his duel while to my knowledge Morgoth was not, so he was fighting with exhaustion right at the start of it, really.


Morgoth was no longer personally on the level of a Valar. Exhaustion was not the main reason why Fingolfin lost. Even a depleted Morgoth was still personally to strong for him.


> Sauron probably can't be compared to Feanor, since, again, he was repeatedly stated to be the strongest elf in mind and body, and he has decent enough feats to back that hype. It'd be highly difficult either way, however.


A lot of Feanor's hype was right at the start of Tolkien's writing and later statements override them. Fingolfin was later called physically the strongest elf and Galadriel was pretty much his equal. However, we can see that Galadriel even with Nenya was too weak to face Sauron.


> Agreed. One doesn't mess with the elf that took down Ancalagon the Black. which, speaking of superhuman feats, just by Ancalagon's size that's pretty dang superhuman for Earendil.
> Sauron was smart enough in general to avoid fights with people he couldn't beat and Earendil is on that list.


True, but Sauron was never a coward and unlike Morgoth was prepared to take the field. 


> Agreed.
> 12 hours and no Bombadil!


LOL


> Feels like a bit of a throwaway line to powerscale from, but I can't deny that has a bit of weight.


That's not the only line. There is also Tolkien's letter where he talks about the chances of someone personally defeating Sauron with the One Ring.

*Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him — being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the ‘Mirror of Galadriel’, 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. *


> Fair point, then. I like Glorfindel, so that's more than fine with me.


Yes Glorfindel always came off very well.


> Physical strength isn't a skill, it's a direct extension of power, and to my knowledge Galadriel's skills generally didn't lie in physically demolishing structures, and was more of a way for her to vent her rage.


Actually Galadriel was quite the warrior and one of the better athletes for the Noldor, but she just did not fight much. However, this is not physical skill. Galadriel did not physicall throw down Dol Guldor anymore than Luthien did. She used her magic to make the structure collapse. A structure itself that was built by magic.


> Feanor's craftmanship can't be powerscaled to Galadriel because he's got feats making him the best craftsman of middle-earth. Galadriel's ability to read minds can't be powerscaled to Feanor because we have no evidence he bothered learning the skill, but something simply like this physical stat definitely powerscales to stronger beings - unless Galadriel could simply disarm Feanor or Gandalf with one swing just due to the difference in physical strength. Especially given that Feanor was stated to have the strongest body of any elf, if I recall correctly(whether his skill allowed him to actually be far above any other high-tier elf is another debate.)


Again casting down Dol Guldor was not something she did physically she used magic. The same way Elrond did not physically throw a river at the Nazgul. Luthien herself did something similar. 


> The comparison here doesn't really work, as strength is a stat, like speed, or durability, while mind-reading and craftmanship are skills, like Energy absorbing, or basket weaving.


Not completely for Tolkien. All magic are skills as well as internal stats. Elvish magic is something that they can learn by lore, but is also innate to them. It's something they have naturally and cannot be compared.


> Agreed. In all Honesty I doubt even Vala would willingly fight Earendil at this point - Kills Ancalagon the black, possibly beat Ungoliant, the spider that murked melkor at one of his more powerful points in time.... They'd almost certainly win, but if any elf could make it difficult for them, probably him.


No the Valar are just much more powerful than any elf. When the Valar fight the world gets destroyed. Mountains are flattened etc. No elf or Maiar is ever going to come close to the power of the Valar.

Alright, we're agreed on that then.


> with the one ring he should be above basically any Maia save possibly Osse, in all honesty. Even the highest maia should not have been capable of matching Morgoth at his lowest, and Sauron sits around that level of power.
> Eonwe in accepted lore probably shouldn't be able to, despite being the most skilled, he wasn't the most powerful - but if we take into account he was meant to slay morgoth in some versions of the tale... Then it's a different ball-game and Sauron will not be running towards but away from Eonwe.


Morgoth at his lowest was no where near the other Valar. He had completely spent his power. It took Morgoth corrupting the entire world for him to fall to Maiar level.  Everything single atom in the world at some level works for Morgoth. Sauron poured his power into a little gold, Morgoth poured his power into the Solar System. 

Lots of Maiar like Osse, Eonwe and Arien for instance were still above Sauron in power even when he had the one ring. When Morgoth is captured in the War of Wrath it is most likely Eonwe who personally captured him.

The final prophecy was scrapped, though there is evidence of it remaining. Though in most versions it is Turin son of Hurin who deals out the death blow.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jun 12, 2014)

Reddan said:


> No those wounds would not have been enough to kill other creatures. Morgoth at that point was severely diminished from what he once was. I am struggling to see how he was not outclassed when he was crushed, had his shield destroyed
> and his neck broken.


Because all that happened AFTER he'd been exhausted, and before that he managed to slip through morgoth's guard and cut him seven different times. He was consistently faster than morgoth and managed to block several hits with his shield before Morgoth defeated him.
This is the same Morgoth that caused flame gouts with Grond. He was plain losing every single trade with Morgoth.




> What's the prophecy about his return got anything to do with him dying before that? Not to mention that Tolkien seems to have abandoned this idea.
> 
> Morgoth was no longer personally on the level of a Valar. Exhaustion was not the main reason why Fingolfin lost. Even a depleted Morgoth was still personally to strong for him.


See above. Until he's exhausted the fight is very one-sided in his favor.



> A lot of Feanor's hype was right at the start of Tolkien's writing and later statements override them. Fingolfin was later called physically the strongest elf and Galadriel was pretty much his equal. However, we can see that Galadriel even with Nenya was too weak to face Sauron.


Last I checked Fingolfin was only called the strongest post Feanor's death, at which point it would be true.



> True, but Sauron was never a coward and unlike Morgoth was prepared to take the field.



Agreed, but he was also unlikely to get into any fight he had a chance of losing without some advantage. It wasn't a matter of cowardice as much as cunning in Sauron's case - he knew fear, but wasn't ruled by it like Morgoth, and more than anything wanted to win - which, if it called for taking the field, he was more than willing to do.


> That's not the only line. There is also Tolkien's letter where he talks about the chances of someone personally defeating Sauron with the One Ring.
> 
> 
> *Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him — being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the ‘Mirror of Galadriel’, 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. *


Only gandalf might be expected to master him"
Galadriel was only conceiving herself as supplanting Sauron WITH the ring, so I'm not seeing that as making her comparable to sauron, just close enough that the Ring'd boost her above him in his current state.



> Actually Galadriel was quite the warrior and one of the better athletes for the Noldor, but she just did not fight much. However, this is not physical skill. Galadriel did not physicall throw down Dol Guldor anymore than Luthien did. She used her magic to make the structure collapse. A structure itself that was built by magic.
> 
> Again casting down Dol Guldor was not something she did physically she used magic. The same way Elrond did not physically throw a river at the Nazgul. Luthien herself did something similar.


I remember that the passage, upon being looked at, was seen as being a physical feat, but I don't have the book with me right now so I'll defer for a few days and see if either anyone else can post the evidence or I can't head down to the library and drudge it up.
It is listed as a physical feat in the OBD and has been for years, though, so I'm going to think of it as a physical feat until I see proof otherwise, though.



> Not completely for Tolkien. All magic are skills as well as internal stats. Elvish magic is something that they can learn by lore, but is also innate to them. It's something they have naturally and cannot be compared.



We don't use special standards unless there's something explicitly stating we should. And the issue here isn't "magic" it's "total potential energy". Whether or not Galadriel, Gandalf, Sauron, etc. have different spells to put their power into, they all have a maximum amount of energy they can put into them, and that can be found by looking at the powers' effect.
Saying Gandalf is superior to Galadriel but doesn't have the same DC.... really doesn't make sense in any context.
Nor does saying Sauron can hold his tower up with nothing but force of will but can't apply that to combat power.
Either way, Galadriel was quite the warrior, but didn't seem to make that her focus in terms of abilities, was my only point.




> No the Valar are just much more powerful than any elf. When the Valar fight the world gets destroyed. Mountains are flattened etc. No elf or Maiar is ever going to come close to the power of the Valar.


Except for those thousand winged dragons that managed to drive them and their host back, the biggest of which had hands that could use mountains as steps.
Ungoliant also should be pretty high up there, and it should be remembered that the Valar were not necessarily a static group themselves - other spirits just up and decided to join their ranks later, like Tulkas, so clearly other beings can match the Valar's might. They just happen to be the most powerful of the "spirit" race.
Of course, if you define Valar as the evolution of the Ainur, Tulkas isn't really a true Valar at all.




> Morgoth at his lowest was no where near the other Valar. He had completely spent his power. It took Morgoth corrupting the entire world for him to fall to Maiar level.  Everything single atom in the world at some level works for Morgoth. Sauron poured his power into a little gold, Morgoth poured his power into the Solar System.


Agreed, but he was still above pretty much any Maiar at the time, or at the least above Melian, and maintained enough power to command the balrogs, who are powerful Maiar themselves.



> Lots of Maiar like Osse, Eonwe and Arien for instance were still above Sauron in power even when he had the one ring. When Morgoth is captured in the War of Wrath it is most likely Eonwe who personally captured him.


I'd like quotes for evidence of this.






> The final prophecy was scrapped, though there is evidence of it remaining. Though in most versions it is Turin son of Hurin who deals out the death blow.



I tend to go with the Hurin version, I'm just pointing out that Eonwe was hyped at one point to that level of power - which, given that Morgoth was meant to get back all of his old strength in the Dagor Dagorath would make him ridiculously strong - though "in force of arms" he is considered the most powerful in Tolkien-verse, which seems to mean he's the most skilled with a sword and shield, giving him some credence to beating Sauron in single-combat, as long as he can deal with Sauron's casual sorcery and the like in single combat as well.
If we ACTUALLY used that version of the tale, Eonwe solos most valar in a gauntlet.


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## Reddan (Jun 12, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Because all that happened AFTER he'd been exhausted, and before that he managed to slip through morgoth's guard and cut him seven different times. He was consistently faster than morgoth and managed to block several hits with his shield before Morgoth defeated him.
> This is the same Morgoth that caused flame gouts with Grond. He was plain losing every single trade with Morgoth.
> See above. Until he's exhausted the fight is very one-sided in his favor.


He was exhausted, because he was using more energy to avoid being killed. In the end he was killed. 


> Last I checked Fingolfin was only called the strongest post Feanor's death, at which point it would be true.


No Fingolfin was called the strongest whilst all three brothers were alive.

*Fanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart
*


> Agreed, but he was also unlikely to get into any fight he had a chance of losing without some advantage. It wasn't a matter of cowardice as much as cunning in Sauron's case - he knew fear, but wasn't ruled by it like Morgoth, and more than anything wanted to win - which, if it called for taking the field, he was more than willing to do.


Agreed


> Only gandalf might be expected to master him"
> Galadriel was only conceiving herself as supplanting Sauron WITH the ring, so I'm not seeing that as making her comparable to sauron, just close enough that the Ring'd boost her above him in his current state.


I never said she was comparable to Sauron or even implied she was. I said she was comparable to Feanor, but even WITH the one ring she was still weaker than Sauron. This should put Feanor's power in respect to the Maiar in perspective.

Galadriel close to his equal, was still some way off Gandalf, Saruman and of course Sauron.
*
Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he and her wisdom increased with the long years.*


> I remember that the passage, upon being looked at, was seen as being a physical feat, but I don't have the book with me right now so I'll defer for a few days and see if either anyone else can post the evidence or I can't head down to the library and drudge it up.
> It is listed as a physical feat in the OBD and has been for years, though, so I'm going to think of it as a physical feat until I see proof otherwise, though.


I would not trust the OBD when it comes to the LOTR either. To many people here wish for the best story to be the most powerful and therefore are desperate to distort or plain lie about all the feats. 

Galadriel's feat is similar to Luthien's.

Here is the quote about Luthien.

*Then Luthien stood upon the bridge, and declare her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moon light, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron.*

This is what is said about Galadriel.
*
'They took Dol Guldor, and Galadriel threw down its walls laid bare it's pits, and the forest was cleansed.'*

Interestingly enough someone must have done the same with Barad Dur after the Last Alliance.


> We don't use special standards unless there's something explicitly stating we should. And the issue here isn't "magic" it's "total potential energy". Whether or not Galadriel, Gandalf, Sauron, etc. have different spells to put their power into, they all have a maximum amount of energy they can put into them, and that can be found by looking at the powers' effect.
> Saying Gandalf is superior to Galadriel but doesn't have the same DC.... really doesn't make sense in any context.
> Nor does saying Sauron can hold his tower up with nothing but force of will but can't apply that to combat power.
> Either way, Galadriel was quite the warrior, but didn't seem to make that her focus in terms of abilities, was my only point.


Because not all spells are the same to cast. It's like comparing Xavier with Cyclops. Xavier is more powerful, but Cyclops can do more physical damage.


> Except for those thousand winged dragons that managed to drive them and their host back, the biggest of which had hands that could use mountains as steps.
> Ungoliant also should be pretty high up there, and it should be remembered that the Valar were not necessarily a static group themselves - other spirits just up and decided to join their ranks later, like Tulkas, so clearly other beings can match the Valar's might. They just happen to be the most powerful of the "spirit" race.
> Of course, if you define Valar as the evolution of the Ainur, Tulkas isn't really a true Valar at all.



The Valar did not fight in the War of Wrath: it was an army made up of men, elves and Maiar. The dragons driving back the host of Valinor was impressive, but it was not the Valar.

Tulkas came from outside the void to become one of the Valar. 

Ungoliant was high up, because she was boosted by eating the Two Trees at that time. Normally she was deathly afraid of the Valar.

*But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him; and she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him.
*

 Morgoth had already squandered a lot of his power. Prior to this when the Valar fought it was on this scale.

*Long and grievous was the siege of Utumno, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Elves. In that time the shape of Middle-earth was changed, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep; and it broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward. Many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxe far in the north, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion, and the mountains about Hithlum. The lands of the far north were all made desolate in those days; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.*


> Agreed, but he was still above pretty much any Maiar at the time, or at the least above Melian, and maintained enough power to command the balrogs, who are powerful Maiar themselves.


He had a higher chain of command under Morgoth, but once Morgoth went he had  no authority to command the Balrogs.

He was not above any Maiar, because Melian was at the least his equal.

Eonwe was more powerful.

*Eonwe, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwe, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.*

*And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds. *

Even at this early point Morgoth had already become personally weaker than many of the top Maiar. As time progressed and he went on to fight Fingolfin he would become weaker still. From being able to face all of the Valar together, he was no longer even able to face a Maiar like Arien.


> I tend to go with the Hurin version, I'm just pointing out that Eonwe was hyped at one point to that level of power - which, given that Morgoth was meant to get back all of his old strength in the Dagor Dagorath would make him ridiculously strong - though "in force of arms" he is considered the most powerful in Tolkien-verse, which seems to mean he's the most skilled with a sword and shield, giving him some credence to beating Sauron in single-combat, as long as he can deal with Sauron's casual sorcery and the like in single combat as well.
> If we ACTUALLY used that version of the tale, Eonwe solos most valar in a gauntlet.


Except in that version Eonwe never won the fight alone. 

*In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.*

At that point the Valar were still able to have children and Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Varda, not just a Maiar. So as he was downgraded to a Maiar his power took a hit too. Though as I quoted before Eonwe was the greatest in skills of arms.

Though in nearly all versions it is Earendil that chases Morgoth from the skies. 
*
Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.*


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