# Tobirama vs Minato



## Cognitios (Mar 26, 2014)

Mindset: IC
Location: Juubijin battlefield
Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: BM/KCM, Edo Tensei, RDS

Minato has 10 Kunai

Scenario 2

Tobirama is an Edo Tensei at full power and Minato has sealing tags

Scenario 3

No Restrictions, Tobirama has either Hashirama or Madara, your choice. Madara cannot summon Kurama and is does not have Mokuton, but does have Rinnegan. Hashirama and Madara are at the same level as when they were at VOTE.
*Minato has BM/KCM*


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 26, 2014)

Scenario 1 goes to minato. Better speed and more versatile FTG usage is all that really matters here for him to take him out.

Scenario 2...well minato does not have a way to seal him without RDS lol. So tobirama should outlast.

Scenario 3 goes to tobirama with hashirama or madara on his side(i'm assuming either one has their edo feats).


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Mindset: IC
> Location: Juubijin battlefield
> Distance: 50 Meters
> Restrictions: BM/KCM, Edo Tensei, RDS
> ...



Scenario 3 is just childish.

Anyway , Tobirama wins. He has a shunshin superior to KCM Minato's arm speed, superior chakra, superior intelligence, and is no just as versatile with FTG as Minato. He also possesses a little FTG\Kage Bunshin trick that allows him to tag speedsters like Juubito.

He also(by scale) has Suiton comparable to Madara's initial Katon , Suiton streams , and arm speed fast enough to place an arm on Juubito before he could even realize.

This isn't even including tagged auto regenerating Edo clones that allows him to slowly close the gap on KCM Minato.


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## Trojan (Mar 26, 2014)

Minato wins. He is superior to Tobirama in literally everything. 


Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [1][2]. However, some people may argue 2 things. The first is that FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself [1]. The other thing is that Tobirama said "shunshin" not "FTG". However, FTG was called as a shunshin like 12 times, that cannot be a coincidence, or can it? 
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]

Not only that, but Tobirama even praised Minato for being fast at striking as well [1]. While Tobirama showed the usage of 1 Kunai against madara, Minato uses a lot of them during the battle, examples of that would be his fight against A & B or his fight in the 3rd War [1][2]. Based on that Minato is as proved by Tobirama himself is indeed better, especially that Minato was praised to be the fastest ever, while Tobirama was praised to be the the fastest during his area. Thus, Minato's teleporting jutsus that he shared with Tobirama give him the edge because of his mastery over them like FTG, and Goshun Mawashi. I may argue that Minato's slashes with the Kunais are also better than that of Tobirama, since when Minato attacks there is no window to dodge as with tobirama, examples of that are [1][2][3]. Unlike Tobirama, [1][2]. In addition to that, Minato's Kunais are heavier [1] and  also has a great deal of power [1].

As for defenses cases, Minato's greatest defensive moves is his S/T barrier which can deal with moves as strong and the TBB [1][2]. On the other hand, Tobirama's move is his Water wall, which has the feat of protecting him from Hiruzen's fire Dragon [1].

That's in term of their teleportation jutsus (other than the Water Wall) which they rely on heavily. Both of them are sensor type ninje, they can sense the chakra by their fingers or not. Both have clones, and can use the 4 suns barrier, so they are more or less even in this regard. However, those feats a long side the previous ones are more than half of Tobirama's arsenal. 

As for offensive moves, Tobirama also has his Water Severing Wave which was able to cut throw some of the Tree's branches. However, we saw a lot of things can cut throw them, and that's include some stuff like a normal swords like that of the Samurais, so it does not really prove how powerful this jutsu is. Minato on the other hand has his Rasengan that was able to damage obito's heavily despite he has Hashirama's cells, but he lost his arm and the earth service underneath him was completely destroyed. So, by feats, the Rasengan has a greater offensive power than Tobirama's jutsu. 

Another jutsu that Tobirama has is his Water Dragon [1]. But even than fells short against Minato's Food Cart Destroyer jutsu that was able to put even Kurama down for a while. 

One of Tobirama's most powerful jutses is Edo Tensei. However, he does not really have feats with it, and we have no idea what kind of people that he can summon. However, we know that by Kabuto's statement even Oro's part 1 ET was greater than that of Tobirama's, so I would assume that Tobirama's ET was not meant for the power of the summoned people, but rather for his strongest offensive move which is Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags. 

Now, Minato also has a summoning jutsu, but instead of summoning the dead, he summons the frogs. Unlike the Tobirama's case we actually know the frogs and we know their jutsus.

As Tobirama's feats and jutsus stop as far as this. Minato has shown a great mastery over the sealing jutsus that he can do some even with on hand.

Minato also has
Chakra Transfer Technique 
Contract Seal 
Dead Demon Consuming Seal 
Four Symbols Seal
Eight Trigrams Sealing Style 
Sage Mode

besides his unrevealed jutsu the Spiralling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Participate Formula. That's without going to the other things like their hype and battles ...etc

that's why I believe that base Minato >> Tobirama



> Scenario 2
> 
> Tobirama is an Edo Tensei



this would be even easier, since his Edo self is supposedly weaker, 


> Scenario 3
> 
> No Restrictions, Tobirama has either Hashirama or Madara, your choice. Madara cannot summon Kurama and is does not have Mokuton, but does have Rinnegan.



They still lose. Tobirama's ET is weaker than Oro's in part 1, so you can imagine how weak Hashi/madara
is going to be. Tobirama's ET is mainly for his explosion tags, and that's all.


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## Cognitios (Mar 26, 2014)

I have edited the OP to clear up some confusion, sorry English is not my first language.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Anyway , Tobirama wins. He has a shunshin superior to KCM Minato's arm speed


Because you know how far or close tobirama was when he did that interception feat right. You are basically ignoring tobirama's prior statements and making up how impressive that feat was. 





> superior chakra


By hype and generous lineage scaling sure but not feats. Means little in this match anyway. 





> superior intelligence


Between a fight on how skilled with FTG you are? Yipeeyahyay.


> and is no just as versatile with FTG as Minato


When one has prepped kunai tht he can lauch 25+ at a time, faster than kakashi can finish a human body kamui warp, plus throw four around the juubi in seconds and can make space time barriers. What's tobirama best shit.


> He also possesses a little FTG\Kage Bunshin trick that allows him to tag speedsters like Juubito.


The one where he gets torn in half and can only make use of said trick because he is immortal right?



> He also(by scale) has Suiton comparable to Madara's initial Katon


This is some shitty scaling bro just being honest.


> Suiton streams


Minato reacted to full speed A on a daily basis so lol at those shit techs. STB is not eve needed. 





> and arm speed fast enough to place an arm on Juubito before he could even realize.


On a unfocused opponent while getting his shit ripped. When tobirama goes against a focused opponent with general knowledge he won't pull that shit off. Check out his match against the weaker(compared to juubito) madara. Minato reaction allows him to warp out the way of a speeding 8th gate guy anyway.



> This isn't even including tagged auto regenerating Edo clones that allows him to slowly close the gap on KCM Minato.


KCM ain't even here but this is kinda false too.


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## Sabco (Mar 27, 2014)

scenario 1 tobirama

scenario 2 tobirama

scenario 3 tobirama


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> By hype and generous lineage scaling sure but not feats. Means little in this match anyway.
> .



I have to disagree with this. Tobirama does not have hype for his chakra at all, and no being a Senji is not enough. Even the Sage's direct son, Asura did not open his eyes and has a huge chakra right away. On the other hand Indra who's supposedly inherited the huge chakra right away, even in the Uchiha clan being an uchiha does not give you a huge chakra automatically either, like in itachi's case. 

in Minato's case, we know that he has a huge chakta because he was able to use SM perfectly, which required a huge chakra. His chakra is perhaps even greater than Jirayia's chakra.

Conclusion, Minato has more chakta than Tobirama. Someone would think that Tobirama would
be able to learn SM if he had all that much chakra.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Anyway , Tobirama wins. He has a shunshin superior to KCM Minato's arm speed




His Shunshin is worse than Base Minato's by Tobirama's own admission. 

That interception feat is on par with Base B's tentacle interception outpacing lighting cloaked A.  




> superior chakra, superior intelligence




Presumably superior Chakra because of the Senju linage? Sure. Superior intelligence? Maybe in terms of general knowledge or academic intelligence. In terms of battle tactics, I have noticed little difference.  



> And is no just as versatile with FTG as Minato. He also possesses a little FTG\Kage Bunshin trick that allows him to tag speedsters like Juubito.




Tobirama is not even on Minato's tier when it comes to versatility with Hiraishin going by what they've displayed. The multiple tagged Kunai that Minato has readily available combined with the Space Time Barrier (that Tobirama hasn't even displayed) make for some fantastic combinations. 



> He also(by scale) has Suiton comparable to Madara's initial Katon.




Which Suiton did _you _see? 



> and arm speed fast enough to place an arm on Juubito before he could even realize




While being torn in half. ck



> This isn't even including tagged auto regenerating Edo clones that allows him to slowly close the gap on KCM Minato.




No it doesn't. I'm not sure what kind of unnamed, featless Edo Tensei Tobirama can summon, but I don't value them higher than Minato's toad contract. Kyubi Minato stomps all over Tobirama by virtue of being better at everything, except perhaps test taking.


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

In term of intelligence, I think Minato is being underestimated some how here. @.@

What Tobirama did in this war is he noticed that "If you get hit by the black stuff, you'll die" and that's about his
so called great analyzes. Minato on the other hand, talked about the speed of the attack and defense, the distance the madara can use them, and how to counter the jutsu. 

Sure, that Minato did not notice about the SM stuff, but that was because he was emotionally effected because he fights his student, unlike Tobirama who does not care about obito. So, that's not a really fair
 situation for Minato. Here however, Minato is not fighting his student, and he actually already know about Tobirama's jutsu, and he even better than him with them.  So, that's department is not all that important here.


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## Kyu (Mar 27, 2014)

Due to his special made kunai, Minato's version of FTG is better suited for combat. Tobirama on the other hand has to manually tag shit. 

Tobirama appears to be more intelligent, however Minato is no slouch in this department seeing as he's shown to come up with brilliant strategies in a  
relatively short amount of time.

Suitons aren't doing anything other than being evaded or warped.

Stamina isn't likely to become an issue unless Tobirama intentionally drags the fight out. Although contrary to his nickname Minato never seemed to have any problems with his stamina.

Shunshin....well coming right out of the horse's mouth:


Minato wins after a hard fought battle. Swifter mobility w/ FTG, SM & Toads swings this battle in the Yondaime Hokage's favor.

Don't care enough to comment on the last two scenarios in greater detail  ,tbh.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Because you know how far or close tobirama was when he did that interception feat right. You are basically ignoring tobirama's prior statements and making up how impressive that feat was.
> By hype and generous lineage scaling sure but not feats. Means little in this match anyway.
> Between a fight on how skilled with FTG you are? Yipeeyahyay.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter does it as he was farther then Minato lol. Tobirama commented on FTG Btw not shunshin.

By hype and feats yes. And if matters in ways obviously as this is going to be a prolonged battle considering they are FTG users with roof top reactions.

Versatility wise I agree if Minato has prepped Kunai.  The feats I could care less about.

Exactly why it's a Kage Bunshin trick lol. Comprehend my posts.

If you scale 5% Hashirama's wood forest to the novice Madara's then you have your scale. 

Juubito has reacted to FTG and Amaterasu effortlessly at times. He had no accuse to be tagged and hit by Tobirama ESPECIALLY considering that was a slower Kage Bunshin. It's also to mention that Minato is less reflexive then Juubito. Lee was able to throw a Kunai between Gai Sensei and Kakashi was able to Kamui and Gaara was able to lift his sand before Gai could strike. All down after he moved btw.

That's cool.


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

> Minato wins after a hard fought battle. Swifter mobility w/ FTG, SM & Toads swings this battle in the Yondaime Hokage's favor.




I honestly doubt that Minato will have all that hard time against Tobirama. Especially that he defeated obito
in almost no time despite having superior power to that of Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> His Shunshin is worse than Base Minato's by Tobirama's own admission.
> 
> That interception feat is on par with Base B's tentacle interception outpacing lighting cloaked A.
> 
> ...



He was talking about FTG. 

Already covered  this on another thread.


I've noticed a big difference in the manga. Minato has only now shown his battle tactics since he was revived. Tobirama has tactically been doing impressive shit all day.

I agree about the tagged Kunai. It's implied Tobirama has FTG by him saying he could warp only one Juubi blast.

Scaled to his battle with Hirzuen. I'll explain more when I have time to comment back longer.

Exactly why it's a KAGE BUNSHIN technique.

I don't agree. Toad contact is less effective against Tobirama as Edo is against Minato. Gama trio are all slow and will get fodderized. Edo however have regeneration and infinite chakra.


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## The Undying (Mar 27, 2014)

Scenario 1: I see them as roughly equal; whereas Minato has a far better Shunshin and Hiraishin, Tobirama appears to have more overall versatility. They're both tactical enough to drag the fight on for a good while, but in the end, Minato edges out and pulls off an extreme diff win.

Scenario 2 is pointless.

Scenario 3: Tobirama takes it comfortably.


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Scenario 1: I see them as roughly equal; whereas Minato has a far better Shunshin and Hiraishin, Tobirama appears to have more overall versatility. They're both tactical enough to drag the fight on for a good while, but in the end, Minato edges out and pulls off an extreme diff win.
> 
> Scenario 2 is pointless.
> 
> Scenario 3: Tobirama takes it comfortably.



the speed fights won't take much time. We saw this against obito and A. they are basically using their speed and the one who has superior speed will pretty much finish the fight in the instance. I don't think this kind of fight will be any different in this case either.

3- Tobirama actually will be the first to die from the fight of BM Minato and the guy (Hashi or madara)
He's basically a non-factor in this scenario.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Can you work on response formatting pretty please. 



Likes boss said:


> He was talking about FTG.




Oh yes, of course he was.

Tobirama's instantaneous teleportation is slower than Minato's instantaneous teleportation.  



> I've noticed a big difference in the manga. Minato has only now shown his battle tactics since he was revived. Tobirama has tactically been doing impressive shit all day.




Minato just displayed a decent analytical feat in figuring out the mechanics to Madara's Onmyouton. Tobirama......did he display any tactical feats? At all? Even the one who figured out the Senjutsu thing was Naruto.



> It's implied Tobirama has FTG by him saying he could warp only one Juubi blast.




I assume you mean S/T Barrier, and no. He could've warped it away using the same method Minato warped the first Jubi bomb away. That wasn't the S/T Barrier.



> Exactly why it's a KAGE BUNSHIN technique.




It's an Edo Tensei technique, as the Kage Bunshin would pop. The Edo Tensei are not as fast as Tobirama, however. 



> don't agree. Toad contact is less effective against Tobirama as Edo is against Minato. Gama trio are all slow and will get fodderized. Edo however have regeneration and infinite chakra.




Tobirama's Edo zombies could be on the level of the rock ninja that Minato slaughtered by the dozen in blinks. At least the Gama Trio are verified Kage level summons, and the Toad Sages are even stronger.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Can you work on response formatting pretty please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. Not on my iphone.

Tobirama said "better." I've also explained this ,

He has. I'll bring them up tomorrow morning .

Due explain how else he would have warped them? It's still warping shit away, just like ST btw.

Kage Bunshin do not pop immediately on impact . It's also to note how fast Tobiramas hand speed was to do that feat . Juubito blitzed through Hashirama and Tobirama before they and anyone else could take notice. Tobirama would have to be blitzed through, notice he got blitzed, then physically touch Juubito before he started traveling to Hashirama. All of that happened nigh instantly. It happened so fast that the paper tags didn't even start falling and no one on the battlefield could react to it. Tobirama can tag Minato before he disperses his clone. 

I suppose so. However they still can be used as diversion via FTG tagging them. They also are a pain in the ass via numbers and regeneration. The Gama trio ain't got shit on Tobirama. And I'm still doubtful if Minato can summon the sage toads. Though him unconventionally entering sage mode Probaably means he can.


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## Cognitios (Mar 27, 2014)

Minato can only summon Gamabunta.


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## Super Chief (Mar 27, 2014)

Scenario 1 - Minato
Scenario 2 - Minato
Scenario 3 - Tobirama


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama said "better." I've also explained this.




Better how. 



> He has. I'll bring them up tomorrow morning .




Sure, feel free.



> Due explain how else he would have warped them? It's still warping shit away, just like ST btw




He probably would've touched the bomb and warped with it, like he did Jubito's smaller bomb. He did say he would carry it, didn't he?



> Kage Bunshin do not pop immediately on impact . It's also to note how fast Tobiramas hand speed was to do that feat . Juubito blitzed through Hashirama and Tobirama before they and anyone else could take notice. Tobirama would have to be blitzed through, notice he got blitzed, then physically touch Juubito before he started traveling to Hashirama. All of that happened nigh instantly. It happened so fast that the paper tags didn't even start falling and no one on the battlefield could react to it. Tobirama can tag Minato before he disperses his clone.




I don't think you understand the technique. It's an Edo Tensei technique, and the immortal body is used as a medium to create the tags. Normally, Tobirama has to use Edo Tensei (when is what he designed it for), but he used his own body in that instance because _he was an Edo Tensei._


Have you ever wondered why Hashirama holds Jubito down while Tobirama punches through his own chest and then throws multiple special slips at him?

If you mean the normal paper bomb tags, then sure......if Minato blitzes Tobirama in the same way Jubito did. It's just that Minato typically attempts to tag you, back up, then Hiriashin on top of you with Rasengan, or slit your throat, etc. There's no reason for him to use a linear flicker directly at the Second, especially with knowledge of his tagging speed.




> I suppose so. However they still can be used as diversion via FTG tagging them. They also are a pain in the ass via numbers and regeneration. The Gama trio ain't got shit on Tobirama. And I'm still doubtful if Minato can summon the sage toads. Though him unconventionally entering sage mode Probaably means he can.




How many zombies can Tobirama even summon? The Gama Trio have feats, Tobirama's zombies do not, bottom line. His zombies won't be troubling for Minato. 

Old Hiruzen defeated Orochimaru's legendary zombies because he couldn't bring them back at full power. Tobirama may have that same problem.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Better how.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tobirama didn't have FTG lvl 2 at the time, so Minato's FTG was indeed better then his.

I don't feel like it ehh. I'll just call then equal.

The Juubi bomb and TBB are much different techniques. I doubt it's logically to warp with a TBB. Just doesn't even sound safe tbh. And if he could then that means he can practically jump with everything right ? 

And he said he could take one away with FTG and that Minato could take two away... ;  multiple special slips

That's the thing , I know exactly how the technique is used. I never ever mentioned that he could utilize infinite explosion in my previous posts.

If you notice closely, you can see that when Juubito finishes his shunshin, he already has been tagged twice with Edo tags:  multiple special slips
Meaning that Tobirama would have had to   Have tagged Juubito twice during his shunshin, and before he touched Hashirama. So unless you believe the tags just fell off perfectly into Juubito then that means that Tobirama has hand speed probably superior to KCM Minato because nobody period could trace it. And because placing tags takes the same amount of time as touching someone(FTG) then that means that Tobirama has the speed to place a seal on Minato while his clone is being dispersed .

It's also to note that even while he placed the explosion tags he managed to also place an FTG seal during the same amount of time. Meaning he touched Juubito 3 times before anyone could see ;  multiple special slips
Which means Minato is fucked 

He atleast has 2 , so giving him 2 is reasonable. It's fine if they are fodder level considering they can regenarate and can be used as diversions and combinations. Likeee, Tobirama placing seals on them, waiting for Minato to strike through them , teleport to them and slaughter Minato. That's why they are important.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 27, 2014)

I will just say I still think its goes like:

Tobirama => Minato
Edo Minato > Tobirama
Edo Minato > Edo tobirama

The only thing that makes Minato superior to Tobirama in my opinion is access to BM.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2014)

Why is this still going on? Tobirama is superior to Minato as a living shinobi, only being a jinchiruki tips the outcome in Minato's favor. 

Also, people need to stop with this whole hiraishin level 2 BS!! It does not exist. That was a bad translation. Level 2 does not exist. To the extent that it exists, i.e. that level 2 is teleporting to a moving kunai, then Tobirama has that too since he teleported to a moving kunai against Madara.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Tobirama is either inferior or equal to Living Minato in nearly every regard, except for academic intelligence. 

Bottom line: Minato is better with Hiraishin, which is a pretty significant part of both their arsenals.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama is either inferior or equal to Living Minato in nearly every regard, except for academic intelligence.
> 
> Bottom line: Minato is better with Hiraishin, which is a pretty significant part of both their arsenals.



I disagree. Tobirama possesses a superior shunshin, handspeed, and chakra for kage Bunshin.

The only thing Minato has on Tobirama is prepped Kunai and summonings.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I disagree. Tobirama possesses a superior shunshin, handspeed, and chakra for kage Bunshin.
> 
> The only thing Minato has on Tobirama is prepped Kunai and summonings.



Minato has the superior Shushin and hand seal speed is a laughable joke at this point

Minato only has his S/T barrier and prepped kunai over Tobirama. Tobirama however uses clones(which is slower obviously) to prep his Hiraishin marks

Pretty much everything else goes into Tobiramas favor with Reactions being the only arguarable point. Which in my opinion, Tobirama is on par if not superior(thanks to superior sensing) in this department


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Minato has the superior Shushin and hand seal speed is a laughable joke at this point
> 
> Minato only has his S/T barrier and prepped kunai over Tobirama. Tobirama however uses clones(which is slower obviously) to prep his Hiraishin marks
> 
> Pretty much everything else goes into Tobiramas favor with Reactions being the only arguarable point. Which in my opinion, Tobirama is on par if not superior(thanks to superior sensing) in this department



Base Minato has an inferior shunshin. Or do you want to provide some feats to prove me wrong ?


How is handspeed a joke?

Tobirama is also implied to have ST barrier.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama possesses a superior shunshin.




If Tobirama's comment meant "the body flicker," then no. If it meant "Hiraishin," then still no, because his feats haven't been superior. Please don't bring up that bomb interception feat AGAIN. It's the same deal as Gaara's sand intercepting v2 Raikage or Base Naruto outpacing Sasuke's Kunai to Sakura's face. It's an *off-panel* interception feat.




> Handspeed




Well, yes, getting specific sure. Minato posses greater strength than Tobirama by feats though.. I mean, I'm talking about major categories. 



> and chakra for kage Bunshin.




That's debatable, and it isn't like Minato doesn't have enough Chakra for Kage Bunshin....


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## Bonly (Mar 27, 2014)

I say that the winner more times depends on who can outlast who or who can land the first touch. Most of Minato's arsenal is the same as Tobi's with small difference such as one summons toads while the other summons dead people, one uses Rasengan while the other uses Suiton ect. and the differences isn't big enough to where one holds an clear advantage so it comes down who can outlast who. The person who lands the first touch will have a good advantage as they can mark the other which would make winning quite a bit easier. So yeah either who can outlast who or who lands the first touch imo.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It doesn't matter does it as he was farther then Minato lol.


 Ignoring the possibilities of distance when hyping a so called speed feat...makes sense. But then again according to your logic suigetsu=V1 A in speed, haku=pt 2 kakashi in speed etc. Dem shoddy interception feats .



> Tobirama commented on FTG Btw not shunshin.


Mind explaining how the fuck hiruzen and hashirama could keep pace with the fastest men of their times(where both hiruzen and hashirama existed) while using FTG? Or we can go with the logically route and realize tobirama meant minato outsped them with shunshin(running).



> By hype and* feats* yes.


Mind backing up the bold with panels? 



> And if matters in ways obviously as this is going to be a prolonged battle considering they are FTG users with roof top reactions.


All the more reason why it will most likely end quickly. A and minato who have roof tier reactions had a battle that nearly ended in 4 panels. It's about who can strike/capitalize the fastest(hint: the faster one is the guy with the yellow hair).



> Versatility wise I agree if Minato has prepped Kunai.  The feats I could care less about.


Minato always has prepped kunai. Nice little concession it clearly show you lack feats to back your stance.



> Exactly why it's a Kage Bunshin trick lol. Comprehend my posts.


I comprehended it and it was heavily trash tbh)not even trying to be mean man). A shadow clone trick that he did with his own body? Shadow clones are noted to be slower and he barely pulled it off with his real body...let that sink in for a sec. You are giving the 2nd to much credit.



> If you scale 5% Hashirama's wood forest to the novice Madara's then you have your scale.


Fanfiction does not belong here. I refuse to just throw around crap scaling and give people techs.



> Juubito has reacted to FTG and Amaterasu effortlessly at times. He had no accuse to be tagged and hit by Tobirama ESPECIALLY considering that was a slower Kage Bunshin.


The form of juubito tobirama barely tagged was not the one who reacted to amaterasu and ftg so moot point. That was the real tobirama by the way.



> It's also to mention that Minato is less reflexive then Juubito.


And minato is more reflexive than tobirama by feats...what was the point of your statement?



> Lee was able to throw a Kunai between Gai Sensei and Kakashi was able to Kamui and Gaara was able to lift his sand before Gai could strike. All down after he moved btw.


This has nothing to do with minato and tobirama's feats. Why did you write this?


----------



## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

Tobirama being superior to Minato is a bad joke.  
Minato is not only superior to him by feats, but also by  hype, and portrayal. lol

Minato is superior to Tobirama in EVERYTHING. 

better S/T jutsus, as Tobirama admitted and also by feat where he is known like the Yellow flash. 
Better shunshin (saving Naruto from obio, Kushina from Kurama, crossing konoha...etc) while Tobitama does not even have feats with that. lol
Better handseal and being able to use it with one hand. 

Better chakra control and more chakra than Tobirama (being able to learn SM). he's a sealing jutsu master as well...etc

in term of their battles
Minato was playing with A & B, on the other hand Tobirama got his ass handled to him by a weaker team which is kin & gin.

Minato defeating thousands on the 3rd war, on the other hand Tobirama can't even handle 20 with his 6 students.  

not to mention his battle with obito & Kurama, and he''s still fighting against madara and fought against obito.
Unlike Tobirama who's done for.

in term of statements.
Hagoromo, kakashi, Jman, Kurama, obito, Hiruzen, A, B...etc

while Tobirama has got nothing but Danzo's statements.  

it does not really need good reading comprehension to know that.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I say that the winner more times depends on who can outlast who or who can land the first touch. Most of Minato's arsenal is the same as Tobi's with small difference such as one summons toads while the other summons dead people, one uses Rasengan while the other uses Suiton ect. and the differences isn't big enough to where one holds an clear advantage so it comes down who can outlast who. The person who lands the first touch will have a good advantage as they can mark the other which would make winning quite a bit easier. So yeah either who can outlast who or who lands the first touch imo.





blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Ignoring the possibilities of distance when hyping a so called speed feat...makes sense. But then again according to your logic suigetsu=V1 A in speed, haku=pt 2 kakashi in speed etc. Dem shoddy interception feats .
> 
> 
> Mind explaining how the fuck hiruzen and hashirama could keep pace with the fastest men of their times(where both hiruzen and hashirama existed) while using FTG? Or we can go with the logically route and realize tobirama meant minato outsped them with shunshin(running).
> ...



What the hell? Of course distance matters but Tobirama was farther then Minato which negates ur entire argument.  

Haku replicated that feat in part 1 already. He is fast between ice mirrors.

V1 Ay has what feats exactly? And the Tobirama feat is much different. Minato's fingers were closing on the orb and Tobirama wasn't even in the panel. Meaning he would have had to shunshin in with Minato barley moving in the time. Are you under the impression that every wink he interception feat is now bullshittt because it weakens your argument ?


Because Tobirama was using casual jumping speed? Then Minato went ahead of the pack and started using FTG Lvl 2. Or we also could go the logical route and undertand that shunshin is sometimes interpreted as FTG, and the viz translation uses teleportation.

By being a damn Senju and cracking part of a building apart by touching the wall and breaking out of Edo Tensei by himself.

No. The Ay example doesn't work here because Ay has inferior reactions to Tobirama and doesn't have FTG. If Tobirama was in the scenario as Ay, he simply would have teleported away. That's basically what's going to be happening here. A bunch of last moment FTG'ing away.

The feats you used don't even help your argument considering Tobirama has feats of reacting and landing attacks on Juubito.


You being serious ? Tobirama with his Edo body( slower then alive Tobirama) was able to tag Juubito FOUR TIMES( 3 explosive tags and an FTG tag) before Juubito could make his transaction to Hashirama mid shunshin. Mind you, Juubitos shunshin was so fast nobody in the entire alliance could comprehend it. Tobirama has some of the fastest hand speed in the manga with that feat. It's also to note that Kage Bunshin don't even disperse instantly , and even if they did, Tobiramas hand speed is fast enough to tag Minato like 15 times before it disperses. 

Does it look I care about your opinion ? I really don't. Tobirama hasn't showed a Suiton yet and he's known for being legendary in that regard. Mei has Suiton the size I'm implying and she has less Suiton hype then Tobirama. It's also to note I have a clear way of scaling his Justu which you call "fanfiction, so that's cool .

That form of Juubito also blitzed EMS Sasuke, Hirzuen, and KCM Naruto nigh casually, and Tobirama was able to tag him 4 times INBETWEEN a shunshin. His hand speed is untraceable. If base Minato was in the same scenario he would have simply been charged through . Nothing more. Do you think Minato could react better to his hand speed then Juubito ?

Tobiramas Kage Bunshin was also able to place a hand on Juubitos shoulder before the later could even react and that was the Juubito that causally reacts to FTG and Amaterasu.

Base Minato is not. KCM Minato is.

Because you used Minato reacting to red aura Gai as a feat.  Though you didn't take into consideration that Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi all reacted casually.


----------



## Dominus (Mar 27, 2014)

New Folder said:


> in term of their battles
> Minato was playing with A & B, on the other hand Tobirama got his ass handled to him by a weaker team which is kin & gin.



We've seen Minato fight a young A and Killer Bee, the latter only used his partial transformation from what we've seen and not to mention that Minato didn't kill them and like A said they fought in many occasions. 

Tobirama fought the Kinkaku Force. When they "fought" (we don't even know if there was a fight) during that peace treaty between Konoha and Kumo, Tobirama was ambushed so how does that prove that they are stronger than him?



> Minato defeating thousands on the 3rd war, on the other hand Tobirama can't even handle 20 with his 6 students.



Where was it stated that Minato defeated thousands, I only remember that it was stated in the manga that he fought 50 shinobi and those shinobi Tobirama fought are clearly portrayed as stronger than the ones Minato fought and not to mention that we have no idea how strong they were so why did you mention them in the first place?



> not to mention his battle with obito & Kurama, and he''s still fighting against madara and fought against obito.
> Unlike Tobirama who's done for.



Madara cut off Minato's arm, kicked it and Minato, he didn't even try to kill him or do what he did to Tobirama.



> in term of statements.
> Hagoromo, kakashi, Jman, Kurama, obito, Hiruzen, A, B...etc
> 
> while Tobirama has got nothing but Danzo's statements.



Minato is way closer to the present than Tobirama so it's only natural that more people know about his strength and all of the people you mentioned are relevant to the story, the only people who have seen Tobirama fight are Homura and Koharu and they are irrelevant to the story and have no reason to talk about Tobirama while Minato is always mentioned because he is the father of the main character.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't think there is a big difference between the two.

Minato
Superior hiraishin
Best attack: Rasengan
Gamabunta


Tobirama
Sensing
Best attack: infinite explosions
Senju Kekkai Genkai(more chakra)


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2014)

New Folder said:


> better S/T jutsus, as Tobirama admitted



You know this is a lie but you keep repeating it. How could Tobirama comment on Minato's hiraishin if Minato did not use hiraishin to get to the battlefield?



New Folder said:


> Better chakra control and more chakra than Tobirama (being able to learn SM). he's a sealing jutsu master as well...etc



Let's review facts. Minato uses hiraishin to teleport kyuubi and he needs time to do so and is tired after the fact. Tobirama teleports two kyuubis and does not break sweat. Who has more chakra?



New Folder said:


> in term of their battles
> Minato was playing with A & B, on the other hand Tobirama got his ass handled to him by a weaker team which is kin & gin.



1. Funny how Minato was forced by B to retreat because they could have killed each other. This is young Kirabi
2. Kin-Gin are stronger than Young A and Kirabi
3. Tobirama fought 20 people, hardly comparable to two people. Logic is not something you seem to be familiar with



New Folder said:


> Minato defeating thousands on the 3rd war, on the other hand Tobirama can't even handle 20 with his 6 students.



Name ONE of those people he defeated? Also, show me a scan of him defeating thousands. He defeated a small platoon of fodders. Even Sasuke could defeat a thousand fodder. If you don't believe they were fodder, give me ONE of their names and we can discuss that person's power


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What the hell? Of course distance matters but Tobirama was farther then Minato which negates ur entire argument.


Tobirama shunshin in from an unknown distance and grab a ball before a shocked minato can get his hand on it. This is one of your "all star" feats . 



> Haku replicated that feat in part 1 already. He is fast between ice mirrors.


So fast base lee could kick him mid flight lol stop that noise .



> V1 Ay has what feats exactly?


Keeping pace with KCM non-shunshin speed, getting praise from madara in speed, dodging jugo lasers at point blank etc. Suigetsu speed feats are all shit besides the constantly inconsistent "interception feats" get over it.



> And the Tobirama feat is much different. Minato's fingers were closing on the orb and Tobirama wasn't even in the panel. Meaning he would have had to shunshin in with Minato barley moving in the time. Are you under the impression that every wink he interception feat is now bullshittt because it weakens your argument ?


Is english your first language? Anyway minato unknowingly bringing the orb back with him, noticing by surprise means tobirama could have been watching and started making moves before minato even knew it was their. You don't know. I call out shitty interception feats cause they are prove me wrong. But hey minato already was able to dodge eighth gate guy who could pressure juubi jin madara. Lol at tobirama touching him when he got beat by pre juubi jin madara . So much for weakening my argument .




> Because Tobirama was using casual jumping speed?


Proof of this or will you admit it's just a figment of your imagination. LOL at tobirama casually running when he is headed to the fucking war that decide the fate of the world.



> Then Minato went ahead of the pack


Due to superior shunshin yes.


> and started using FTG Lvl 2.


Statements, proof, logical conclusions backing this? I notice you like to fan-fic quite abit. You expect me to believe other kages could not keep up with minato throwing kunai's large distances to keep warping forward? Way to hype his kunai speed kid.  Or the alternative he was throwing them short distances in front of himself and warping in short burst(and still beat the other kages there). None of that shit makes any sense.



> Or we also could go the logical route and undertand that shunshin is sometimes interpreted as FTG, and the viz translation uses teleportation.


Don't....use the word logic dude especially like that. Instead of whoring translations why don't you actually defend your case. How instant teleportion is so different . How tobirama just learned ftg lv 2 when he fought madara ...despite dying in/or past his prime as a veteran hokage . Do you really believe that stuff?



> By being a damn Senju


John senju is tobirama's equal because he's a damn senju....just no that is not a legit feat.



> and cracking part of a building apart by touching the wall and breaking out of Edo Tensei by himself.


Cracking a wall with chakra? Jirobo got feats like that and he's shit tier. How you gonna bring some wall level shit to the round table and expect it to hold. Tobirama got made a bitch when orochimaru used those senju cells while his bro was like "cute". Can't even compare em. Minato did not even try to escape and canonically has huge reserves so .



> No. The Ay example doesn't work here because Ay has inferior reactions to Tobirama and doesn't have FTG. If Tobirama was in the scenario as Ay, he simply would have teleported away. That's basically what's going to be happening here. A bunch of last moment FTG'ing away.


With minato getting the upperhand because as is showed...he is faster. 



> The feats you used don't even help your argument considering Tobirama has feats of reacting and landing attacks on Juubito.


Mindless obito while getting rekt you forgot that part. That desperate tagging feat is not that great as your overrating it to be.




> You being serious ? Tobirama with his Edo body( slower then alive Tobirama) was able to tag Juubito FOUR TIMES( 3 explosive tags and an FTG tag) before Juubito could make his transaction to Hashirama mid shunshin. Mind you, Juubitos shunshin was so fast nobody in the entire alliance could comprehend it. Tobirama has some of the fastest hand speed in the manga with that feat. It's also to note that Kage Bunshin don't even disperse instantly , and even if they did, Tobiramas hand speed is fast enough to tag Minato like 15 times before it disperses.


Overrating that kamikaze mission again aren't you. Yeah yeah lets play that...tobirama tags minato with your lulzy hand speed and get his face cut in half during the process. Oh wait it was a shadow clone minato. KB's go away instantly if hit hard enough. Tag minato 15 times...i know you trollin with that shit. None of tobirama's feats come near that stop it. 



> Does it look I care about your opinion ? I really don't.


Yet you respond to me...you don't have to child .



> Tobirama hasn't showed a Suiton yet and he's known for being legendary in that regard.


He has shown some...and they are good for giving a dog a bath at best. He was legendary for creating them without a water source but even mooks like kurotsuchi can do it in part 2.



> Mei has Suiton the size I'm implying and she has less Suiton hype then Tobirama.


Those are mei's feats and stop fapping to your false hype please.



> It's also to note I have a clear way of scaling his Justu which you call "fanfiction, so that's cool .


No you don't...unless giving a character some else jutsu count. It's the very definition of fanfiction lol. I can only shudder at what you think tobirama's edo tensei feats are like.



> That form of Juubito also blitzed EMS Sasuke, Hirzuen, and KCM Naruto nigh casually, and Tobirama was able to tag him 4 times INBETWEEN a shunshin. His hand speed is untraceable. If base Minato was in the same scenario he would have simply been charged through . Nothing more. Do you think Minato could react better to his hand speed then Juubito ?


Still wanking the feat that require living tobirama dies i see. Untraceable hand speed yet got 1 second off screened by pre juubi jin madara. Minato can react to 8 gated characters casually baby accept it.



> Tobiramas Kage Bunshin was also able to place a hand on Juubitos shoulder before the later could even react and that was the Juubito that causally reacts to FTG and Amaterasu.


That was the real tobirama and he waited until juubito was distracted stop being dishonest. Yeah i wonder if juubito could react to those techs while distracted. 



> Base Minato is not. KCM Minato is.


Okay?



> Because you used Minato reacting to red aura Gai as a feat.  Though you didn't take into consideration that Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi all reacted casually.


You didn't take into account alot of obvious stuff too but hey. Minato's 8 gate reaction feat is legit going by your logic i mean it seems every feat is acceptable now .


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

> =Authoritah;50212771]We've seen Minato fight a young A and Killer Bee, the latter only used his partial transformation from what we've seen and not to mention that Minato didn't kill them and like A said they fought in many occasions.



1- It's true that B used only a tail in that battle, but we don't know what he used on the other battles, and since he's a perfect host and always use his Bijuu, I don't see why wouldn't he.

2- Just because Minato did not kill them (because he did not want to) that does not proof that he was not superior to them (even though they admitted that), just like how Hashi did not kill Kakuzu who did not have his masks jutsu, or how madara did not kill young onoki and Mu, or the Gokage. 


> Tobirama fought the Kinkaku Force. When they "fought" (we don't even know if there was a fight) during that peace treaty between Konoha and Kumo, Tobirama was ambushed so how does that prove that they are stronger than him?


They fought at least 2 times. The first one is what you mentioned when the Raikage was with him as well, and he was not alone. The second time was in the War, and he was with his students. Also, as a matter of fact they wanted to ambush them.

I will see later about the first time because I don't remember that Kin & Gin ambushed them. 


> Where was it stated that Minato defeated thousands, I only remember that it was stated in the manga that he fought 50 shinobi and those shinobi Tobirama fought are clearly portrayed as stronger than the ones Minato fought and not to mention that we have no idea how strong they were so why did you mention them in the first place?



OK, I will go over it all at once

1- analyzing
Minato here mentioned about the front line and that there is a thousand ninja. He also mentioned that he will go there as he stated here [1].
 The Anime
even explained that if you do care about what they show


2- Minato then also defeated Mahiru, who's  Jōnin
1
1


3- He defeated the 50 who were also jonin
1


and I don't see how are those against Tobirama were portrayed to be stronger, when those almost drove konoha to lose, had it not been for Minato!

4- He defeated those who attacked kakashi
 1
1
1

and as Zetsu told obito when they were heading to where kakashi and Rin was, Minato was already in a mission as well. So, it's not like if Minato only dealt with those 50.  


as for your last claim, the ones fought Tobirama has not portrayed, he only said they are skilled. and since the Jonin class is the highest after the kage-level, I don't see why do we have to assume those who fought Tobitama are stronger, is it just because they killed him? 


> Madara cut off Minato's arm, kicked it and Minato, he didn't even try to kill him or do what he did to Tobirama.


That's cool and all, except when he attacked Minato he was the Juubi's host, and that's a HUGE power up. 



> Minato is way closer to the present than Tobirama so it's only natural that more people know about his strength and all of the people you mentioned are relevant to the story, the only people who have seen Tobirama fight are Homura and Koharu and they are irrelevant to the story and have no reason to talk about Tobirama while Minato is always mentioned because he is the father of the main character.



Not really, A knows about Tobirama, and Jman lived during Tobirama's area as well, and so was Hiruzen...etc. Also, you don't need to live during someone's area to know about him. Samui knows about Kin & gin and their tools from history books and stuff. 

- Good, so as I said even by portrayed Minato is the superior one.


----------



## Ƶero (Mar 27, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Minato wins. He is superior to Tobirama in literally everything.
> 
> 
> Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [1][2]. However, some people may argue 2 things. The first is that FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself [1]. The other thing is that Tobirama said "shunshin" not "FTG". However, FTG was called as a shunshin like 12 times, that cannot be a coincidence, or can it?
> ...



/thread

Tobirama admits Minato is better, feat and hype all support this. It's pretty conclusive now. Canonically Minato is confirmed to better in pretty much every area.







Minato should take all 3 scenarios. Orochimaru improved Tobirama's edo tensei yet Hiruzen managed to take on Hashirama and Tobirama because the edo's were weaker. Tobirama's edo's should be even weaker so Minato should win there too.

Tobirama got defeated by Kinkaku and Ginkaku and a bunch of cloud Jounins whereas Minato was the turning point of a war and likely took on thousands. He also stopped the cloud's attempt at stealing Kushina who was the kyuubi jinchuuriki. The cloud likely sent their top jounins yet academy Minato tracked and solo'd them.





Don't make me bust out the Minato hype wall.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Trojan (Mar 27, 2014)

> =Senjuclan;50212981]You know this is a lie but you keep repeating it. How could Tobirama comment on Minato's hiraishin if Minato did not use hiraishin to get to the battlefield?


lol, no. I know that Tobirama referring to FTG every damn time, and I know it's irrational to single that one time out. Also, I already proved ti you that FTG is called shunshin around 12 times. Not to mention Hashirama told Tobirama to use his damn FTG, and I would like to take his statement over yours. In addition to that, even if I agreed with you that he did not meant FTG in that one for the sake of the argument, he still admitted inferiority to Minato again.  




> Let's review facts. Minato uses hiraishin to teleport kyuubi and he needs time to do so and is tired after the fact. Tobirama teleports two kyuubis and does not break sweat. Who has more chakra?



lol, let's review facts
1- Minato was dealing with Kushina's sealing jutsu, for God knows how long.
2- He dealt with Kurama's TBB and then dealt with obito, and then summoned a boos summon.

After ALL of that he then teleported FULL Kurama.

On the other hand, Tobirama IS EDO, so he does not have to worry about his chakra, AND his chakra will regenerate right away just as Sasuke told that to Hashirama.

so obviously Tobirama won't sweet.

On the other hand, we know that Minato also learned SM which needs a HUGE chakra

based on this, his chakra is even greater than Jman since he has a perfect SM. 


> 1. Funny how Minato was forced by B to retreat because they could have killed each other. This is young Kirabi
> 2. Kin-Gin are stronger than Young A and Kirabi
> 3. Tobirama fought 20 people, hardly comparable to two people. Logic is not something you seem to be familiar with



1- Lol, funny how Minato did not even want to kill B, and B was trembling from hearing his name.

Not to mention Minato could have used SM to make his body stronger than the sword would be useless. 

2- Because you said so? lol
because the manga clearly said otherwise.
1

3- lol, Minato ended the entire war for God's sake. 


> Name ONE of those people he defeated? Also, show me a scan of him defeating thousands. He defeated a small platoon of fodders. Even Sasuke could defeat a thousand fodder. If you don't believe they were fodder, give me ONE of their names and we can discuss that person's power



Fodders like those who defeated Tobirama? Even Darui dealt with Kin and Gin and cut them several times had they not been ET. lol 

- Yeah, except Minato dealt with Jonin, and also, even if Sasuke could, Tobirama couldn't simple as that. 

Ok, there is one

here is two

and this is as a gift


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2014)

New Folder said:


> lol, no. I know that Tobirama referring to FTG every damn time, and I know it's irrational to single that one time out. Also, I already proved ti you that FTG is called shunshin around 12 times. Not to mention Hashirama told Tobirama to use his damn FTG, and I would like to take his statement over yours. In addition to that, even if I agreed with you that he did not meant FTG in that one for the sake of the argument, he still admitted inferiority to Minato again.



So, you admit the first comment was not about hiraishin. The second comment about moving people simultaneously is about chakra not about ability to use hiraishin. Minato can use a higher number of people because he has kyuubi chakra. However, when he did not have kyuubi chakra, he got tired after teleporting the kyuubi just once.  



New Folder said:


> lol, let's review facts
> 1- Minato was dealing with Kushina's sealing jutsu, for God knows how long.
> 2- He dealt with Kurama's TBB and then dealt with obito, and then summoned a boos summon.
> 
> ...



Sasuke was not speaking about chakra and edo tensei do not recover chakra right away. How do you explain that Muu was too weakened when he was split




New Folder said:


> On the other hand, we know that Minato also learned SM which needs a HUGE chakra
> 
> based on this, his chakra is even greater than Jman since he has a perfect SM.



1. Typical. You get perfect senjutsu by balancing natural energy not by having more chakra
2. Minato cannot even maintain senjutsu for more than a couple of seconds, which means (1) either his chakra capacity is not large or (2) his chakra control sucks. However, we know it is not his chakra control since he can balance natural energy perfectly. So, his chakra sucks



New Folder said:


> 1- Lol, funny how Minato did not even want to kill B, and B was trembling from hearing his
> Not to mention Minato could have used SM to make his body stronger than the sword would be useless.



1. And Kirabi did not want to kill Minato either. If he did, they would both die. So, Kirabi alone could have left Minato on the verge of death that day 
2. It takes less time to drive a knife into someone's belly than for Minato to collect natural energy



New Folder said:


> 2- Because you said so? lol
> because the manga clearly said otherwise.



So, this means that A and B are stronger than RS and his brother? Poor logic



New Folder said:


> 3- lol, Minato ended the entire war for God's sake.



Show me a scan that says Minato ended the war



New Folder said:


> Fodders like those who defeated Tobirama? Even Darui dealt with Kin and Gin and cut them several times had they not been ET. lol



So, in other words you can't name a single person he defeated nor can you substantiate the claim that he killed thousands




New Folder said:


> - Yeah, except Minato dealt with Jonin, and also, even if Sasuke could, Tobirama couldn't simple as that.
> 
> Ok, there is one
> 
> ...



So, in other words you are showing me pictures of three people who were not on the platoon of 50 fodders Minato killed. All those people are weaker than Uchiha Izuna who Tobirama killed. So, there. 

The real point is that you claimed (1) Minato killed thousands. Show me the panel where this happened and (2) I asked you to give me the names of one of the thousands he killed at once not the names of some of the people he has killed


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Tobirama shunshin in from an unknown distance and grab a ball before a shocked minato can get his hand on it. This is one of your "all star" feats .
> 
> 
> So fast base lee could kick him mid flight lol stop that noise .
> ...



Lol that's still moving faster then Minato just incase you didn't know. Tobirama could have been standing beside Minato and caught the ball first. It doesn't matter, it still shows that his hand speed is superior to Minato's. Yes it was an "unknown " distance, but it's was still outside of the panel. The panel it asked stretched more then 5m away, so Tobirama from more then 5m away shunshin'd in and caught the ball before Minato who was inches away could move his arm to catch it. That's the end of the disscussion. Lol tell me how someone literally 1/3 of a foot away could be outpaced by someone more then 15 feet away, yet you magically still claim he has has faster reactions and or speed. Might I add that this was KCM MINATO. Who is massively superior to base Minato. It's the difference between Naruto being Kakuzus speed and Naruto being faster then Ay. KCM Minato is at very least double the speed of base Minato and has massively superior reactions. So that means there is no possible way Tobirama who outspeed KCM Minato could possibly be slower then base Minato. Tobirama also coordinated attacks with KCM Minato and caught Juubito off guard at times which KCM Minato couldn't even do.

Let me get a scan for this Lee feat.

KCM Naruto with no shunshin isn't really that fast tbh. He hasn't done much Exocet get stalemated in taijustu by Itachi. His speed feats aren't grand. He was using V2 against Madara btw.  And Jugo lasers have what speed feats ?

It's also to note that besides that feat being an interception feat, Darui perfectly kept pace with V1 AY meaning Darui can match Ay's speed. Suigetsu was matching Daruis speed perfectly fine, and Darui as a person has never been mentioned to be speedy.

Yes it's my first language. It's hard typing on an iphone inbetween honors classes. 

That's scene happened in mere moments. Tobirama was not casually sipping tea and observing the battle. There is actually no evidence to assume he was even in the area. It's also to note that Minato would have noticed the orb first regardless, and at an even closer distance by the way. Minato noticed the orb right after he teleported to his FTG Marker. It's also to note that Tobirama could have not have seen Juubito place the orb on Minato( before the warp) considering he did it so fast not even KCM Minato noticed before he warped.

Lol you serious about the Gai feat ? In order for you to take that serious then you have to agree that 6th gate Lee, Gaara and exhausted Kakashi are more reflexive and faster then Tobirama. Using common sense even you know that exhausted Kakashi and freaking Gaara are less reflexive and slower then Tobirama. 6 gated Lee is slower then 6th gated Gai , and 6th gated Gai is slower then Tobirama/ or at least less reflexive.

The proof is all the Kage Arriving at the same time albeit Tobirama being proclaimed as the fastest Shinobi of their time. Him having faster feats by far then Hirzuen. It's the same shit as Lee , Tenten , and Neji casually jumping through the forest keeping pace with eachother regardless of the tremendous speed difference between Lee and Tenten. The other proof is Tobirama Meaning FTG and not shunshin. FTG has been called shunshin around 10 times in the manga btw. The the proof is Tobirama keeping up with KCM Minato casually , catching Juubito off guard, and out speeding Minato directly.

No due to having throwable instant teleportation unlike all the other Kage. Base Hashirama has speed equal to Madara who could casually blitz SM Naruto. Minato does not have the speed to casually blitz SM Naruto with merely his shunshin . That's not even counting Tobirama who is faster then his brother. If almost might also be clear to you that Tobirama Hashirama and Hirzuen would not arrive at the same time if Tobirama is already proclaimed as the fastest. It's also to mention that we know DAMN well that Hashirama, Tobirama , and Hirzuen do not posses a perfectly equal shunshin.

What the hell ? No. They were all causally moving equal speed until they came into view of the giant freaking Juubi. Then Minato started throwing his Kunai ahead and warping away. You know that Minato can throw his Kunai large distances right ? Is that so hard to comprehend ?

I'll use the word logic however the hell I want to use it. I used it in a logical way lol.  

?Minato's  instant teleportation was different because Tobirama had never used version 2 before( even though it's really basic)
? he learned it against Madara because it's simply placing a damn FTG tag on a Kunai. We know he didn't have it prior because Minato was stated to be the only person that did. Tobirama never used FTG lvl 2 or was even implied to have it. Tobirama also never used it in the entire war until he fought Madara. Tobirama has never once had prepped Kunai. Those are the reasons. And that's something I believe.

Are you serious bro ? Being a Senju assures you have massive chakra levels. That's the reason he has more chakra then Minato lol. Ur examples are pretty bad. 

Don't remember that . Panel ? 

Tobirama has less chakra then Hashirama. You should know this. Hasirama was directly compared to the Kyuubi with his chakra. Tobirama is below that and Minato is even lower. That's exactly why Kishi gave Hashirama and Tobirama the feats of overpowering Edo and cracking walls by releasing chakra. To show that they have massive amounts of chakra. Why the hell else would Kishi add that ?

Minato didn't escape the Edo grip because he couldn't. He doesn't have the chakra for that lol. That's exactly why Kishi specifically gave the feat to Hashi and Tobirama. You think Kishi did that because it's funny? No he did it to make a statement. lol by your logic you could assume Hiruzen has Tobirama chakra levels lmao.

List some base Minato feats because I'm getting tired of you claiming he's faster by your misinterpreted claim and only that. You literally only have that to back your statement up and nothing else.

The same mindless Obito that blitzed Hashirama, KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , and Hirzuen casually. That Obito has the same raw movement speed and reactions as the controlled version it's just can't use Justu and think for itself . It's a good feat for Tobirama nonetheless. The tagging feat is actually better then you claim. Tagging Juubito 4 times mid shunshin is the fastest hand feat bar Juubi Madara.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

Part 2: 

no lol. Tobirama tags Minato and his Kage Bunshin gets dispersed.
• you said Tobirama tags Minato first then gets hit, then claimed that it doesn't work because KB's disperse after a heavy hit. How the hell does that help your case ? Lol and Tobirama can tag Minato faster then KB's disperse. 
• 15 was an exaggeration, but more then 4 considering Tobirama could tag Juubito 4 times and base Minato and even KCM Minato are both less reflexive then Juubito.

Cause I know DAMN well I'm not being out "debated " by you lol.


I'll just go ahead and explain the scaling I was going to use before.

Tobirama Suiton is already several times bigger then his body size by probaably around the size of an average Suiton; Link removed
Now we know Hashirama and Tobirama were both revived weakened about 5% of their true power. This is the size of Hashirama's wood forest while weakened; Link removed
Compared to Madara Uchiha's( less skilled at Moukton then base Hashirama's) ; Link removed 
Which was atleast 15 times bigger then the one in part 1 and because Tobirama and Hashirama scale the same exact way , that should make Tobirama Suiton atleast 15 times stronger making it about this size ; Link removed

No. The feat requires that a Kage Bunshin be killed . That's the difference. That's why I specifically said it was a FTG/ Kage Bunshin trick.

That's a feat for Madara lol, and the mechanics behind his FTG slash are different from just moving his hands at insane speeds. & so can Lee , Gaara , and exhausted Kakashi who are all slower and less reflexive then Tobirama.

All things aside it's pretty funny that you have to rely on insults, name calling, and laughing faces the entire. It makes your argument look pretty bad actually.


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## Trojan (Mar 28, 2014)

An updated version of my first post. lol 
I tried to include everything I remember. @>@

Minato & Tobirama. 

Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [1][2]. However, some people may argue 2 things. The first is that FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself [1]. The other thing is that Tobirama said "shunshin" not "FTG". However, FTG was called as a shunshin like 12 times, that cannot be a coincidence, or can it? 
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]

Not only that, but Tobirama even praised Minato for being fast at striking as well [1]. While Tobirama showed the usage of 1 Kunai against madara, Minato uses a lot of them during the battle, examples of that would be his fight against A & B or his fight in the 3rd War [1][2]. Based on that Minato is as proved by Tobirama himself is indeed better, especially that Minato was praised to be the fastest ever [1], while Tobirama was praised to be the the fastest during his area [1]. Thus, Minato's teleporting jutsus that he shared with Tobirama give him the edge because of his mastery over them like FTG, and Goshun Mawashi. I may argue that Minato's slashes with the Kunais are also better than that of Tobirama, since when Minato attacks there is no window to dodge as with tobirama, examples of that are [1][2][3]. Unlike Tobirama, [1][2]. In addition to that, Minato's Kunais are heavier [1] and  also has a great deal of power [1].

As for defenses cases, Minato's greatest defensive moves is his S/T barrier which can deal with moves as strong and the TBB [1][2]. On the other hand, Tobirama's move is his Water wall, which has the feat of protecting him from Hiruzen's fire Dragon [1].

About shunshin. Minato still has some of the best feats in the manga; [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Crossing Konoha in no time, stopping kakashi before he could even move his hand, and separating the Kunais before the Hokages even arrive. On the other hand, Tobirama has none, except taking the black orb off panel, which cannot be taken seriously. 

That's in term of their teleportation jutsus (other than the Water Wall) which they rely on heavily. Both of them are sensor type ninje, they can sense the chakra by their fingers or not. Minato can sense with even one finger [1][2], unlike Tobirama who uses two fingers for that [1]. Both have clones, and can use the 4 suns barrier, so they are more or less even in this regard. However, Minato can easily break this when he use his SM to improve all of his base states and make his sensing, chakra, and other things more powerful. In addition to that those feats a long side the previous ones are more than half of Tobirama's arsenal. 

As for offensive moves, Tobirama also has his Water Severing Wave which was able to cut throw some of the Tree's branches [1]. However, we saw a lot of things can cut throw them as well [1][2][3][4][5], so it does not really prove how powerful this jutsu is. Minato on the other hand has his Rasengan that was able to damage obito's heavily despite he has Hashirama's cells, but he lost his arm and the earth service underneath him was completely destroyed [1]. So, by feats, the Rasengan has a greater offensive power than Tobirama's jutsu. 

Another jutsu that Tobirama has is his Water Dragon [1]. But even that fells short against Minato's Food Cart Destroyer jutsu that was able to put even Kurama down for a while [1][2]. 

One of Tobirama's most powerful jutses is Edo Tensei. However, he does not really have feats with it, and we have no idea what kind of people that he can summon. However, we know that by Kabuto's statement even Oro's part 1 ET was greater than that of Tobirama's [1][2], so I would assume that Tobirama's ET was not meant for the power of the summoned people, but rather for his strongest offensive move which is Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags. In addition to that, we know that the ETs have a contract from Madara's statement [1]. And we know that Minato can break the contract by his contract seal [1]. So, really it won't be much of use for Tobirama either. 

Now, Minato also has a summoning jutsu, but instead of summoning the dead, he summons the frogs. Unlike the Tobirama's case we actually know the frogs and we know their jutsus.

As Tobirama's feats and jutsus stop as far as this. Minato has shown a great mastery over the sealing jutsus that he can do some even with on hand.

Minato also has
Chakra Transfer Technique 
Dead Demon Consuming Seal 
Four Symbols Seal
Eight Trigrams Sealing Style 
Sage Mode

besides his unrevealed jutsu the Spiralling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Participate Formula. That's without going to the other things like their hype and battles ...etc


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## Trojan (Mar 28, 2014)

part 2.


*
In term of battles. *

we either have some scan of their battles, or not even a complete fights. Therefore, I will rely on, both the scans we have about the fight, and the statements that were made for the given fights. 

First of all, one of the fights we know about Tobirama is the fact that he fought Kin & Gin. One of the fights he fought with them was a surprised attack against him and the 2nd Raikage with him, as a result of this fight Tobirama got almost killed by them [1][2]. On the other fights against Kinkaku Unite which has 20 shonibi, it's we they finally were able to kill him. What we know about that from the scans we have is the fact that Tobirama and his 6 students thought that fighting against Kinkaku and his teams it just too much for them [1]. He ended up getting defeated by them [1][2].

While also we know that Kin & Gin have Kurama's chakra within them, but we know that Kinkaku does not use it unless someone has taken Ginkaku out according to Kakuzu [1]

On the other  hand, Minato fought against A & B several times, a team which was stated to be superior and the strongest team in Kumo [1]. ِAlthough we only have some scans of their fight and the rest is remains unseen, but we know that Minato is superior to them from their own mouths [1][2]. Current B, was trembling just because Naruto's mentioned his father's name, he won't tremble if Minato was inferior or equal to him. Not to mention he was not fighting Minato alone, but with A along side him, so that's enough to be sure that he's alone can't deal with Minato, otherwise he would destroy Minato with A! Anyway, A also admitted inferiority to Minato [1]. So, A believes that there is no man who can surpass Minato, which is a straight forward statement that Minato is the superior one, not only superior to both A & B, but anyone else according to A (who by the way know about Kin, Gin, Tobirama, his father...etc)

Other battle is almost one scan, which is Tobirama's battle against Izuna [1].
Izuna in that scan was not even using his MS, so I think it's save to assume that Tobirama had the edge because
Izuna's chakra became low that he couldn't keep his sharingan activated anymore. In top of that we do not even know
how powerful Izuna was to begin with. It also worth to mention that the translation that some of Tobirama's fans use to
prove Izuna's power is actually wrong, itachi (whom his knowledge in that regard was proven to be wrong) did not say that Izuna was as powerful as madara, but rather they were traning together, and that's all. Izuna in the flashback was even shocked that there is someone who's stronger than his brother! 

Minato on the other hand fought against Obito who was trained by madara as well. Not only that but he also has Hashi's cells and he was controlling Kurama, whi was attacking the village. In top of that he attacked Minato off gourd, yet he still got his ass handled to him. Even though he has a superior jutsu to both Minato and Tobirama's s/t jutsus. 

So, once again Minato fought superior foes to that of Tobirama. 

We also know that ET Tobirama with his brother and Oro fought against old Hiruzen. Which he also ended up losing the fight
it is true that he was not at his full power, but so was Hiruzen, and even if we ignored that, it's still one of his battles.

On the other hand Minato was fighting on the 3rd war and pretty much changing the entire result from Konoha losing the war to konoha winning the war, and it was even stated that he ended his battled in a blink of an eye. As we know that in the front line, there were 1000 shinobi as Minato stated [1] and he was send there as well defeating them, and through out the War he also was defeating those ninja from Iwa [1][2][3][4][5] Ending the War [1].

---Space---
*
In term of intelligent. *

Both of the Hokages are considered to be intelligent. First, Minato is said to be a genius that appears once in a while [1]. He was praised to be intelligent as well by Tsunade and Jiraiya[1], and Naruto [1].  According to the sannin as well, he is not the guy who will do something without a reason [1][2]. In addition to that, he also stated that he could have handled the Uchiha coup detat better/earlier [1]. 

In term of analyzing the foe's jutsus, Minato has shown some of the best feats as well. First of all, he analyzed Kakashi's chidori from the first time he saw it [1] He figured out how the jutsu work and what its strong point and its weakness as well. He was also able to analyze Obito's Kamui from the first time and counter it in no time [1][2][3].  Which took Naruto, kakashi, guy, and B a lot more time to find out about, and a lot of team work to overwhelm Kamui so to speak. Minato's feats continue that in the War when obito trapped them, and Tobirama tried to come with a solution, Minato gave a better solution than that of Tobirama [1][2]. His Idea of teleporting the Entire Tree, which Tobirama couldn't think of. He also analyzed the Black Orbs [1][2][3]. He talked about the speed, distance, and the control, then he came up with a plane to deal with it, even though he only met Lee and Gaara for a minute or so! That's beside his plan for Naruto and the village by sealing only half of Kurama inside Naruto, so Konoho does not lose its Bijuu, and sealing his chakra and Kushina's chakra inside Naruto to help him.

In term of jutsus, he created the Rasengan, Rasen-Flash Super-Circle Dance Howl Stage Three, S/T barrier, and improved the FTG to a higher degree than Tobirama. Also, according to the DT3 he was creating the jutsu after the other [1]. 


Tobirama's feats, is he thought of building a lot of constructors for Konoha [1]. Besides creating some of the strongest jutsus like ET, FTG, clones, and the explosion tags jutsu. He also was/is a good politics and that's he was thinking about konoha when he decided to sell the Biuus rather than given them for the villages by free. That's beside he noticed the Juubi's host weakness after the frog attack, and the fact that even the ET cannot regenerate if they got hit by the black stuff, after obitos statement about the yin, and yang.
*
In term of hype. *

Tobirama has some hype going for him.
1- From the ANBU [1].
2- Danzo [1]
3- Madara [1]

So, Tobirama was the fastest during his area, and was the strongest in the village when he was the Hokage. 

Minato has a lot of hype as well.

From Tobirama [1][2][3][4] . 
From B [1][2].
From A [1][2]
From Naruto [1][2][3][4][5]

From Jiraiya [1][2][3][4][5][6]
From Tsunade [1][2]
Hiruzen [1]

Fodders (villages) [1][2][3]

kakashi [1]
obito [1]
itachi [1]

Minato [1][2]
Kushina [1]
Kurama [1]
Zetsu [1]
Hagoromo [1]

In Conclusion, Minato is superior by feats, hype, and portrayed.


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## Legend777 (Mar 28, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama is superior to Minato as a living shinobi,



Because?



Senjuclan said:


> Let's review facts. Minato uses hiraishin to teleport kyuubi and he needs time to do so and is tired after the fact. Tobirama teleports two kyuubis and does not break sweat. Who has more chakra?



Edo's suffer from chakra exhaustion.
Edo's have the same chakra pool as when they are alive .
Edo Minato doesn't show signs of exhaustion when he ported away the Jubii TBB.
Tobirama teleported two Kyuubi halves .

So yeah Minato has superior feats .



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Funny how Minato was forced by B to retreat because they could have killed each other. This is young Kirabi
> 2. Kin-Gin are stronger than Young A and Kirabi



Funny how despite all that Raikage claimed that Minato was the strongest ninja he came across.


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If Tobirama's comment meant "the body flicker," then no. If it meant "Hiraishin," then still no, because his feats haven't been superior. Please don't bring up that bomb interception feat AGAIN. It's the same deal as Gaara's sand intercepting v2 Raikage or Base Naruto outpacing Sasuke's Kunai to Sakura's face. It's an *off-panel* interception feat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We've been over this already. I've proven my point lol. You haven't had anything to say regarding it lol. So why do you keep bringing it up ?

And you honestly think base Minato has better feats then Edo Tobirama seriously ? Lol that's funny.

Yes he has better hand speed. And I find it very hard to believe that Minato is physically stronger then a pure Senju. Tobirama lacks the same feats as Minato however. He has never even been in a circumstance as such if you read over all his feats. So PURELY based on feats Minato as the upper hand by slaughtering bees tentacle.

Chakra is not debatable. Tobirama has more.  Minato has enough chakra for KB but Tobirama can create more and if they get dispersed then it's less of a chakra factor for Tobirama.


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## joshhookway (Mar 28, 2014)

Tobirama destroys Minato all three scenario.

Minato only has rasengan as an offensive, but Tobirama is way too way to be caught. Tobirama is more intelligent and has way more tools.


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## Super Chief (Mar 29, 2014)

Tobirama fanboys are as sensible as always. Minato is superior. He just is. Deal with it.


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## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

I'd say portrayal sides with Minato being stronger in all scenario's, even if in some cases the difference between Minato and Tobirama is not too large of a gap.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 29, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Tobirama fanboys are as sensible as always. Minato is superior. He just is. Deal with it.



Great logic there buddy. I was blown away by your reasoning


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## Trojan (Mar 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'd say portrayal sides with Minato being stronger in all scenario's, even if in some cases the difference between Minato and Tobirama is not too large of a gap.



Even his feats are greater than that of Tobirama. That's actually pretty obvious (unless you're tobirama's fanboy of course)


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## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Even his feats are greater than that of Tobirama. That's actually pretty obvious (unless you're tobirama's fanboy of course)



I really don't think feats matter at all; we probably haven't even seen half of Tobirama's Jutsu or Minato's. For example most Jonin master 2 elements; your going to tell me Tobirama only has 1 and Minato only has 0, yeah right, both should have at least 2 and would not be surprise if they had 3-4. Same deal with Minato's Fuuinjutsu; he learned Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu from Kushina, yet your going to tell me all he learned was Hakke Seal, Contract Seal, and Shiki Fuujin; yeah right, clearly the fact that he has a Fuuinjutsu as specific as contract-seal indicates that he probably has a specialized seal for many different situations. The Data-book states Minato invented many different Jutsu, so far we've only seen one Jutsu he invented Rasengan; we haven't even seen Spiral/Flash/Dance. 

So yeah judging them off of feats is pointless.


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## Trojan (Mar 29, 2014)

Actually what you stated is precisely why I think Minato is on different level than Tobitama. 
He just has strong base for him.

1- Uzumaki sealing jutsus.
2- Elemental jutsus that kakashi stated that he has them.
2-His training with Jiraiya (I don't think he only learned summoning and SM, and nothing else!)
4- The jutsus he created them according to the Databook.
5- Perhaps his clan's ability if there is such thing.
6- "That jutsu" if it does exist

....etc
The problem here is the fact that kishi cut Minato's arm and stopped it from regenerating (The only Edo to ever happen to him), and he made it even worst by cutting off his other arm! Unlike the Senju bros who were
just fine and can use their jutsus as they want. 

Also, I think the strongest jutsus that the character has are the most important to give us an idea about how
powerful they are, the other jutsus either are weak, or not big of a deal. For example, we know kakashi's level
I doubt that if he uses any jutsu from the 1000 jutsus that he copied that his level would change! Because they are more likely weaker than the jutsus he usually use. 

but anyway, I agree with you that judging by feats only is not enough. The characters do not have the same
panel of times, and they use what they need against the characters that they are facing, so they won't show something to counter other jutsus a different character, if you know what I mean. @.@


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## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Actually what you stated is precisely why I think Minato is on different level than Tobitama.
> He just has strong base for him.


I agree that Manga places Minato above Tobirama, so far. 



> Also, I think the strongest jutsus that the character has are the most important to give us an idea about how
> powerful they are, the other jutsus either are weak, or not big of a deal. For example, we know kakashi's level
> I doubt that if he uses any jutsu from the 1000 jutsus that he copied that his level would change! Because they are more likely weaker than the jutsus he usually use.


I have to disagree here. How much hype a certain Jutsu receives can indeed add to a characters overall portrayal, but I do not think it's necessarily more important than statements such as someone having 1,000 Jutsu. Kishi stating a character has 1,000 Jutsu [or more], is basically Kishi's way of telling us, "I can pull out whatever the fuck I want for this character, and you can't bitch about it". Ultimately this means that character will have a wide array of counters for many situations, which is just as important, if not more so than their strongest Jutsu. With that said each case should be evaluated independently. For example Kakashi's 1,000 Jutsu have not been portrayed as quite the boon that Hiruzen's 1,000+ Jutsu have; so I'd consider Hiruzen's Jutsu pool more useful than Kakashi's despite both having a massive array of Jutsu.



> but anyway, I agree with you that judging by feats only is not enough. The characters do not have the same
> panel of times, and they use what they need against the characters that they are facing, so they won't show something to counter other jutsus a different character, if you know what I mean.


Yup, that's exactly one of the problems with feat-centric arguments. Often times people demand feats of how a character would counter Genjutsu, Speed-Demons, etc... despite a character never going up against Shinobi who command these abilities in the manga cannon. However bare in mind this is just one of the problems with feat-centric arguments; many more problems have been exposed by the recent arc.


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## Elite Uchiha (Mar 30, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama destroys Minato all three scenario.
> 
> Minato only has rasengan as an offensive, but Tobirama is way too way to be caught. Tobirama is more intelligent and has way more tools.





Kishimoto has made it clear that Minato is above Tobirama.


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## TMD (Mar 30, 2014)

tobirama > minato


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## Sabco (Mar 30, 2014)

Tobirama sama


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## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Minato probably wins all those scenarios except for Scenario 3, depending on how much knowledge he has. Tobirama + Hashirama / Madara helping out can beat Minato regardless of form in my opinion. Minato wouldn't be accustomed to the power, even if it does enhance his abilities Hashirama will stomp it and Madara can too.  

Explanation for a straight up more logical and normal scenario from their prime:

Minato has a wildcard or two going into this. What he's learnt is what Tobirama already pretty much knows but he's more than likely exceeded Tobirama in those abilities specifically. From what I've seen, Tobirama isn't strong enough to cancel those features out not to mention I don't think anything from his arsenal on top of that can beat Minato. Then again, it won't be easy for Minato to get any tags because of Tobirama's knowledge. It's honestly too hard to tell without seeing Tobirama in proper action and seeing him use his actual high end features as opposed to him just talking about them.

I think Tobirama wouldn't succeed in a one on one stipulation against Minato, you give them two equal Jonin [Same Stats / 2 Releases] each and make it a team battle, Tobirama's intelligence and strategies and his team work probably stomps them. It seems he's a more strategic team oriented person from what we've seen this war. Despite how he died.


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## joshhookway (Mar 30, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Kishimoto has made it clear that Minato is above Tobirama.



That's why Kishi calls edo tensei the most powerful jutsu of all time, right?

That's why Tobirama was the brains in the fight against Obito and Minato was support.


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> That's why Kishi calls edo tensei the most powerful jutsu of all time, right?
> 
> That's why Tobirama was the brains in the fight against Obito and Minato was support.



- Except Tobirama's ET is weak, not to mention having a strong jutsu does not make you stronger than others. the Jinton is stronger than the wood, yet Onoki is weaker than Hashi.

- Actually Tobirama is the support, all he did is either teleporting Naruto, or Minato. That's it.
they were the once who were attacking.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 30, 2014)

New Folder said:


> - Except Tobirama's ET is weak, not to mention having a strong jutsu does not make you stronger than others. the Jinton is stronger than the wood, yet Onoki is weaker than Hashi.
> 
> - Actually Tobirama is the support, all he did is either teleporting Naruto, or Minato. That's it.
> they were the once who were attacking.



1. Show me where the manga says that Tobirama's ET is weak?
2. The difference is that Tobirama already has Minato's strongest jutsu, so ET is on top of hiraishin
3. Do you know what a brain does? Cause I am not sure you understood his point


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Show me where the manga says that Tobirama's ET is weak?
> 2. The difference is that Tobirama already has Minato's strongest jutsu, so ET is on top of hiraishin
> 3. Do you know what a brain does? Cause I am not sure you understood his point



1- Or perhaps you can use some common sense? Tobirama's ET is weaker than Oro's in part 1
and I know that you know how weak Tobirama & Hashirama were compare to their true power, so if legendary ninja were brought back to that degree, what will happen to those who are summoned by Tobirama's inferior ET? 

2- lol, Minato has sealing jutsus, the toad's jutsus, elemental jutsus, better S/T jutsus than Tobirama. It's no wonder Minato can fight stronger foes and win, unlike Tobirama  

3- lol, brain, What was Tobirama's so called intelligent strategies? He figured out about obito's weakness? Naruto did that before him. AND Naruto is the one who has SM as well.

Tobirama's role was for support as I said, he only teleport the others, and that's it. Even that was given to him by kishi to make him useful, and that's why he made Minato's seal vanish without any reason.


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## Cognitios (Mar 30, 2014)

> 1- Or perhaps you can use some common sense? Tobirama's ET is weaker than Oro's in part 1
> and I know that you know how weak Tobirama & Hashirama were compare to their true power, so if legendary ninja were brought back to that degree, what will happen to those who are summoned by Tobirama's inferior ET?


Tobirama's ET is at the level of Kabuto's in this matchup, read the scenario


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Tobirama's ET is at the level of Kabuto's in this matchup, read the scenario




I was speaking about the his ET in the manga, not in this thread. ^_^


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## Senjuclan (Mar 30, 2014)

New Folder said:


> 1- Or perhaps you can use some common sense? Tobirama's ET is weaker than Oro's in part 1
> and I know that you know how weak Tobirama & Hashirama were compare to their true power, so if legendary ninja were brought back to that degree, what will happen to those who are summoned by Tobirama's inferior ET?



Again you repeat something without substantiating it, show me a panel that says that says Tobirama's ET was WEAKER THAN Orochimaru's



New Folder said:


> 2- lol, Minato has sealing jutsus, the toad's jutsus, elemental jutsus, better S/T jutsus than Tobirama. It's no wonder Minato can fight stronger foes and win, unlike Tobirama



1. None of those Justus have been said to be stronger than ET
2. Which foe did Minato fight that was stronger?



New Folder said:


> 3- lol, brain, What was Tobirama's so called intelligent strategies? He figured out about obito's weakness? Naruto did that before him. AND Naruto is the one who has SM as well.
> 
> Tobirama's role was for support as I said, he only teleport the others, and that's it. Even that was given to him by kishi to make him useful, and that's why he made Minato's seal vanish without any reason.



So, in other words he figured out something Minato could not. He devised a way to damage Jyuubito, which Minato could not. He devised a plan to land Naruto/Sasuke's attacks on Jyuubito, which Minato did not


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## Elite Uchiha (Mar 30, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> That's why Kishi calls edo tensei the most powerful jutsu of all time, right?



Oh the same jutsu Old Sarutobi massacred 



> That's why Tobirama was the brains in the fight against Obito and Minato was support.



Thats why Minato is the brains in the current fight against the RS Juubi Madara and Tobirama is the sup.......I mean laying motionless on the ground


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

> =Senjuclan;50237879]Again you repeat something without substantiating it, show me a panel that says that says Tobirama's ET was WEAKER THAN Orochimaru's



oh well, as obvious as it is

Oro perfected the jutsu
Kabuto surpassed both



> 1. None of those Justus have been said to be stronger than ET
> 2. Which foe did Minato fight that was stronger?


1- except it was stated that the sealing jutsu is the way to defeat the ET. 
Ever read this page?


2- A & B, Obito & Kurama. 
even current madara if you will is stronger than the madara who defeated Tobirama. 


> So, in other words he figured out something Minato could not. He devised a way to damage Jyuubito, which Minato could not. He devised a plan to land Naruto/Sasuke's attacks on Jyuubito, which Minato did not



No, he figured out something Minato who was in emotinal situation and in a conversation with his student did not. As for the second plan, it's not like if Minato was not with him. 

did I mention Minato came up with the plan with teleporting the Entire Tree with the 4 TBB
which Tobirama did not and wanted to teleport them one by one?  
and he is the one who made the plan and leading the way against current madara as well?


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## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Perfected meaning that Orochimaru learnt it to it's full capacity and could do it, also Orochimaru doesn't have near the knowledge that Tobirama has on Edo Tensei. Orochimaru's  ET was actually pretty bad in comparison to Kabuto's and maybe even Tobirama's. You can even look at the Konoha Invasion fight. 

The only reason why Orochimaru's ET on Edo Hokage was remotely good was because of Kabuto's knowledge and his new body.


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## Trojan (Mar 30, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Perfected meaning that Orochimaru learnt it to it's full capacity and could do it, also Orochimaru doesn't have near the knowledge that Tobirama has on Edo Tensei. Orochimaru's  ET was actually pretty bad in comparison to Kabuto's and maybe even Tobirama's. You can even look at the Konoha Invasion fight.
> 
> The only reason why Orochimaru's ET on Edo Hokage was remotely good was because of Kabuto's knowledge and his new body.



No, Tobirama's ET was the worst. It was so bad when it comes to bringing the dead with their power and that's why he was using them as bombs, and that's what was implied by madara. 



- True, but still his part one ET is still better than Tobirama's, otherwise it wouldn't make sense
for Kabuto to state that Oro perfected the jutsu if he actually made it worst!

Kabuto's ET > Oro's ET in part 2 > Oro's ET in part 1 > Tobirama's.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> oh well, as obvious as it is
> 
> Oro perfected the jutsu
> Kabuto surpassed both
> ...



1. It says he perfected ET not that Tobirama's ET is weak. Rasengan perfected by Naruto, does that mean Minato's rasengan is weak?
2. You can't read, can you? ET being defeated by sealing jutsus does not make said jutsu stronger. 
3. A and B we're weak, definitely weaker than a MS wielded and Minato could not defeat them. He stalemated against them. Tobirama could do the exact same against Obito
4. Jiraiya was in an emotional situation against two of his students and yet he figured out their abilities. Minato could not because he is not very sharp
5. Tell me how that plan of carrying the tree work out?
6. What Minato is doing right now is irrelevant since Tobirama is not around. We can only compare their smarts when they are faced with the same situation


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