# Competitive Battling How-to Guide



## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

For those who don't know, competitive battling is where people spend grueling amounts of hours trying to breed and get perfect Pokemon so they can battle against other people who also spend grueling hours trying to get perfect Pokemon. But a lot of people aren't that dedicated, so Shoddy Battle is the superior option in such a case. But having everything trained for you doesn't mean you're ready to jump in and start beating people. Competitive battling is more than just having good Pokemon, it's about having strategy, intelligence and good prediction abilities. Sure, hax is prevalent as well, but without the three things mentioned before, it's very hard to pull of success in battles. As I go on explaining, I'll be editing in more and more things that will help newcomers become good competitive battlers.

Also, if there are any questions, simply ask me in this thread, and I'll definitely be able to answer.

Here's two links to help you get started: 





Here is an extensive EV guide. All the credit goes to Aeres116699 on the GameFAQs HeartGold Board for actually putting the guide together, as well as the credits at the end of the guide. *Do not credit me for any of it.* I cannot actually post it here because it's so long (almost 30,000 characters) so I have to link to it.


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## Sen (Feb 15, 2010)

Oh awesome thread, once I pick a Shoddy Team I will probably ask you many questions lol   Because yeah, obviously you need more than good pokemon ;<

Out of curiosity, do you always follow the Smogen recommendations for making your pokemon, like the EVs, etc?


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

I sometimes change moves if I see a desperate need, and I usually stick to smogen evs unless I use my own custom sets. Some serebii sets are good though.


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Sen said:


> Out of curiosity, do you always follow the Smogen recommendations for making your pokemon, like the EVs, etc?



The Smogon recommendations are good, but it's always best to alter the EV spread according to what kind of team you want to have and exactly what threats your Pokemon is going to go up against. The EV spread should also be altered to accommodate the Pokemon's actual use in battle and it's role on your team. But usually, the Smogon sets are pretty spot-on. So only alter if you feel the need to.


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Whats a good 'lead' pokemon? I always have troubles choosing who should I sent out first.


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## Golbez (Feb 15, 2010)

Most of the lake guardian legendaries are good leads, as they have many moves that can be used to your advantage.

Personally I like Electrode, but that's only because of its great speed. It's not all that good competitively.


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> Whats a good 'lead' pokemon? I always have troubles choosing who should I sent out first.



Usually something bulky or very fast that can set up Stealth Rock/Taunt and other entry hazards with ease. Things like Aerodactly with Taunt + Stealth Rock, Bronzong, Azelf, Hippowdon, etc.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

Bronzong, uxie, metagross, infernape, roserade 

Depends on what you want to do first off. If you want to lay down rocks, spikes, t spikes, or stop the other opponents lead and annoy their team.


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Something fast with hazards- cool thanks.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

Fast with hazards would be infernape, azelf, and roserade


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## Kairi (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm getting Shoddy now but I don't understand it tbh /slow


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

You just make your team and whatnot. Hang on, I'll edit some links into the OP to make things easier.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

What about the competitive in-game battlers Jason? What about me?


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

You do not count, because anything works in-game.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

That's why I like it. No stupid restrictions that make you go "THEN WHY IS IT IN THE GAME!11!!!!! "


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Don't complain to me, boy.


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## Kairi (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm not
..
I din't understand Shoddy very much 
though i think i got a bulbasaur !


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Well, are you on the Team Builder page now?


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## Kairi (Feb 15, 2010)




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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> Don't complain to me, boy.



It's ok. You can guide the Shoddy battlers, and I'll continue guiding in-game battlers under the table 

I'd play Shoddy/Nettbattle if they worked on my computer. The used to


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> It's ok. You can guide the Shoddy battlers, and I'll continue guiding in-game battlers under the table
> 
> I'd play Shoddy/Nettbattle if they worked on my computer. The used to



I'm still a weakling at Shoddy but I sorta consider myself a pro at in-game battles. You can guide me- haha


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Oh, don't edit the IVs. Just alter EVs and stuff and choose what Pokemon/moves you want.  Use those links that are in the first post to help you.



Jυstin said:


> It's ok. You can guide the Shoddy battlers, and I'll continue guiding in-game battlers under the table
> 
> I'd play Shoddy/Nettbattle if they worked on my computer. The used to



You do your job, and I'll do mine.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> I'm still a weakling at Shoddy but I sorta consider myself a pro at in-game battles. You can guide me- haha



You like in-game too? I knew there were others that existed 

First off, which you most likely already know, is to take Smogon's ideas with a grain of salt. I personally don't like a lot of their recommendations, but mostly because they're too predictable 



Death-kun said:


> You do your job, and I'll do mine.



Split the profits 50/50?


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> You like in-game too? I knew there were others that existed
> 
> First off, which you most likely already know, is to take Smogon's ideas with a grain of salt. I personally don't like a lot of their recommendations, but mostly because they're too predictable



Of course I like in-game better. I may have just learned about Shoddy today but I've seen other battle programs. Just isn't as fun I guess. And I think in-game is a little more fair per say.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> Of course I like in-game better. I may have just learned about Shoddy today but I've seen other battle programs. Just isn't as fun I guess. And I think in-game is a little more fair per say.



Yeah. In-game you can use any Pokemon you want, and any moves you want (Double Team is banned otherwise ). Plus, no matter what, it's still hard to get a perfect Pokemon the way you want it, so it's more challenging. I _did_ hatch a Calm Magnet Pull Magnemite with all 31 IVs, but I was hoping for Hidden Power Fire, Water, Grass, or Ice, so even that wasn't as planned 

I should be fair to Smogon though. I used their Machamp idea:

No-Guard
Adamant
@ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
~Dynamicpunch
~Ice Punch
~Rest
~Sleep Talk

And it's awesome in competitive battles. It's easier to determine a good moveset if you know what your Pokemon's IVs are and what it's max stats would be. For in-game Pokemon, you can use  to check the IVs. It's easier to get a lot of Rare Candies so there aren't any EVs involved.

Then you can use Shoddy or Netbattle's Team Builder workshop to plot the EVs for your Pokemon, to find out what stats you want for them. It's tedious, but extremely helpful if you battle in-game competitively


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## Golbez (Feb 15, 2010)

Damn, I still remember No-Guard Machamp taking out my Bouncing Gyarados, causing me to lose a match of great importance.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

I didn't know no guard hit through bounce


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

No Guard hits through anything.  That's why it can be so annoying. Good thing nothing misses Machamp because of No Guard though.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

It hit a Hitmontop through Dig too. It's fucking hilarious


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Yeah. In-game you can use any Pokemon you want, and any moves you want (Double Team is banned otherwise ). Plus, no matter what, it's still hard to get a perfect Pokemon the way you want it, so it's more challenging. I _did_ hatch a Calm Magnet Pull Magnemite with all 31 IVs, but I was hoping for Hidden Power Fire, Water, Grass, or Ice, so even that wasn't as planned



That's the difference between competitive battling and in-game battling. In-game Pokemon aren't perfect which I think make it more fun. Plus the Pokemon used in battle are pretty much based off what you can do and the resources you have. Sure Shoddy is fun cause you can get anything you pretty much want but what's fun about the in-game is the prep. 

For in-game battling amongst friends, I'm usually the top guy and the guy to beat. I would love to battle wifi but I've got a WPA key so I can't get my DS on it.


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## Shiron (Feb 15, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> No Guard hits through anything.  That's why it can be so annoying. Good thing nothing misses Machamp because of No Guard though.


It doesn't hit through Shadow Force though, for some reason/in an exception to this. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't.


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## Dreikoo (Feb 15, 2010)

With enough time, you can get the important stats to near perfect ingame too, that's what matters. I don't really care for those computer applications, they're ok for testing ideas but the real deal is after having done the training yourself seeing all the results. That way when you do get something with a perfect IV on an important stat (like my adamant rhyperior with max attack IVs) it's all the more special.





> It doesn't hit through Shadow Force though, for some reason/in an exception to this. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't.


Fighting moves don't affect ghost types. Was he using a fighting move when it missed perhaps?


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Shiron said:


> It doesn't hit through Shadow Force though, for some reason/in an exception to this. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't.



Hm... I'm not sure either. Someone would have to test it, or at least look it up.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> That's the difference between competitive battling and in-game battling. In-game Pokemon aren't perfect which I think make it more fun. Plus the Pokemon used in battle are pretty much based off what you can do and the resources you have. Sure Shoddy is fun cause you can get anything you pretty much want but what's fun about the in-game is the prep.
> 
> For in-game battling amongst friends, I'm usually the top guy and the guy to beat. I would love to battle wifi but I've got a WPA key so I can't get my DS on it.



Well, I did kinda cheat for all the TMs  But that's because I think that only 1 Flash Cannon per game is total BS 

As far as in-game goes, I will use AR for TMs and encounter codes, but that's pretty much it. Even after using the encounter codes, I don't use the Pokemon I catch, I breed them for better IVs. They're not perfect, but at least I get 31 in 3 stats by the time I'm done  Some of them dangerously close to perfect. A Dragon Dance Tyranitar with 31 IVs in all stats - but Sp.Atk - is perfect, unless it uses any special attacks, lol.

I need an adapter to link battle with others across the world. Right now it's just friends and family. That's where Shoddy/Netbattle has its advantages I guess.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Shiron said:


> It doesn't hit through Shadow Force though, for some reason/in an exception to this. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't.



Only Giratina uses it, right? Could have been trying to use Dynamicpunch or something (though it wouldn't make sense to).

I have to test this


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Well, I did kinda cheat for all the TMs  But that's because I think that only 1 Flash Cannon per game is total BS
> 
> As far as in-game goes, I will use AR for TMs and encounter codes, but that's pretty much it. Even after using the encounter codes, I don't use the Pokemon I catch, I breed them for better IVs. They're not perfect, but at least I get 31 in 3 stats by the time I'm done  Some of them dangerously close to perfect. A Dragon Dance Tyranitar with 31 IVs in all stats - but Sp.Atk - is perfect, unless it uses any special attacks, lol.



Don't worry- you're not alone. Hehe What I used to do was use TMs on Pokemon on my Ruby and migrate them onto by D/P/Plt.


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## Shiron (Feb 15, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Fighting moves don't affect ghost types. Was he using a fighting move when it missed perhaps?


Nope. Doesn't matter what type the attack is. It won't hurt Giratina when it's using Shadow Force, and will just miss:


As mentioned, it will hit through stuff like Fly, but Shadow Force isn't listed, because it doesn't apply to it.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> Don't worry- you're not alone. Hehe What I used to do was use TMs on Pokemon on my Ruby and migrate them onto by D/P/Plt.



That's what I've been doing too  I'm actually migrating these guys over in a day or so:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Magnemite - Magnet Pull
Calm
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 31
SpD: 31
Spe: 31

Roselia (to breed for Budew)
HP: 31
Atk: 15
Def: 22
SpA: 31
SpD: 30
Spe: 31

Bellsprout (to breed with Roselia for Budew with Sleep Powder)
HP: 27
Atk: 10
Def: 21
SpA: 31
SpD: 31
Spe: 31

Marill (to breed for Azurill with Aqua Jet)
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 20
SpD: 31
Spe: 28

Gastly
Timid
HP: 27
Atk: 31
Def: 22
SpA: 31
SpD: 3
Spe: 31

Larvitar
Adamant
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 16
SpD: 31
Spe: 31
~Dragon Dance

Torchic
Jolly
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 28
SpD: 31
Spe: 31
~Endure
~Reversal

Torchic (to breed for another Torchic in Diamond)
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 27
SpA: 31
SpD: 29
Spe: 31

Growlithe (to breed Agility and Reversal onto Torchic)
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 31
SpD: 31
Spe: 31

Growlith
Jolly
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 1
SpD: 7
Spe: 31

Scyther
Jolly
HP: 31
Atk: 31
Def: 31
SpA: 31
SpD: 18
Spe: 31
~Endure
~Reversal




I seriously had no idea how helpful breeding was for IVs


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> That's what I've been doing too  I'm actually migrating these guys over in a day or so:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I've got an army of mini Larvitars waiting to be migrated, at least a box full. I got carried away with breeding Tyranitars.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> I've got an army of mini Larvitars waiting to be migrated, at least a box full. I got carried away with breeding Tyranitars.



I can see why. Tyranitar is awesome. Thanks to Sandstream and the fact that Sandstorm boosts Rock Pokemon's Sp.Def by 50%, Mewtwo can seldom OHKO with a 4x effective Aura Sphere 

Smogon says for Dragon Dance Tyranitar, to give it 4 HP, 252 Atk, and 252 Spe EVs. I don't think that's efficient enough. This is the one I'm gonna train.

Adamant
@ Leftovers / Chople Berry
112 HP / 148 Def / 248 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Crunch
~Stone Edge
~Fire Punch

When a Pokemon has a stat boosting move, if it's already high, I tend not to invest in it as much, so I can invest more in other areas that need it. It gets almost 300 Def while still having 334 Atk. The more defensive, the easier to set up DD.


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## Peter (Feb 15, 2010)

is anyone else having the problem of not being able to load your team on shoddy?


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## delirium (Feb 15, 2010)

> First off, which you most likely already know, is to take Smogon's ideas with a grain of salt. I personally don't like a lot of their recommendations, but mostly because they're too predictable



They're only predictable because everyone uses them. Not the other way around. Which is what turns me off to competitive battling these days. They're definitely good sets, but 90% of battlers have no originality/understanding of the game mechanics/team building and thus run the same Suicide lead/Scizor/Flygon/Latias/Rotom/Heatran (any one can be replaced with Mence or Ttar) etc. teams. So they just copy pasta and go into battle. 

Generally it's the one at the top. They're sets below are actually good for the copy pasta'ing. Like Agility Zapdos. Easily a top 5 sweeper in all of the game and yet no one uses it. A damn shame.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

delirium said:


> They're only predictable because everyone uses them. Not the other way around. Which is what turns me off to competitive battling these days. They're definitely good sets, but 90% of battlers have no originality/understanding of the game mechanics/team building and thus run the same Suicide lead/Scizor/Flygon/Latias/Rotom/Heatran (any one can be replaced with Mence or Ttar) etc. teams. So they just copy pasta and go into battle.
> 
> Generally it's the one at the top. They're sets below are actually good for the copy pasta'ing. Like Agility Zapdos. Easily a top 5 sweeper in all of the game and yet no one uses it. A damn shame.



Yeah true. I also mean EV spreads and such. Their Adamant Dragon Dance Tyranitar is 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe. In my opinion it really doesn't need all that Atk power if it's running Dragon Dance. I prefer to run 112 HP / 148 Def / 248 Spe. It still reaches 501 Atk after Dragon Dance, and thanks to its defenses, it has an easier time setting up.

Or like Smogon's Deoxys-S. Their standard is:

Jolly
@ Leftovers
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Stealth Rock
~Spikes
~Taunt
~Superpower

This Deoxys-S is pretty frail, and there's a 50/50 chance you're using Taunt on a Pokemon that's already attacking you. Taunting a Pokemon using X-Scissor is a big waste of a move. Superpower is powerful, but after one use, especially for Deoxys-S, it becomes relatively useless. It could set up Stealth Rock and maybe a layer or two of Spikes, but other than that it gets sacrificed.

This Doexys-S, however:

Jolly
@ Brightpowder
44 HP / 156 Atk / 80 Def / 100 SpD / 128 Spe
~Recover
~Zen Headbutt
~Double Team
~Psycho Shift

This one is much more capable of taking hits. One of the only ways to safely get rid of this thing before it takes out your team (or a nice hunk of it) is to OHKO it. If you can't OHKO it, it'll just Recover off the damage. To 2HKO it, you have to do at least 75% with each hit to KO it thanks to Recover, assuming you can hit it twice in a row, and giving it any status effect, save for Sleep, is risky thanks to Psycho Shift. It's designed to be able to dodge hits, take them, Recover them, and heal any status problems. Its only real bane are Dark types and moves that can OHKO it.

I tested it out on trainers with Pokemon all about 20 levels ahead of it. It solo'd


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 15, 2010)

Smogon 

No


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## Soda (Feb 15, 2010)

This isn't much of an original how-to guide. You just linked to Smogon. lol

Not like you need one though, just tell them to read some stuff on Smogon (maybe, not even needed) and then practice. Practice makes perfect!  Or something, idr what it's like being a total beginner!


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## Death-kun (Feb 15, 2010)

Soda said:


> This isn't much of an original how-to guide. You just linked to Smogon. lol
> 
> Not like you need one though, just tell them to read some stuff on Smogon (maybe, not even needed) and then practice. Practice makes perfect!  Or something, idr what it's like being a total beginner!



I'll be editing in some more stuff like how to predict effectively, as well as strategies and such. Like I said I would in the first post. I just didn't do it today.  I'll end up doing it tomorrow or sometime during the week.


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## Soda (Feb 15, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> I'll be editing in some more stuff like how to predict effectively, as well as strategies and such. Like I said I would in the first post. I just didn't do it today.  I'll end up doing it tomorrow or sometime during the week.



Oh well good luck with that. ;o

To predict effectively, you must go with your gut!


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Soda said:


> This isn't much of an original how-to guide. You just linked to Smogon. lol
> 
> Not like you need one though, just tell them to read some stuff on Smogon (maybe, not even needed) and then practice. Practice makes perfect!  Or something, idr what it's like being a total beginner!



I'm a total beginner- I started this morning. I got like ten battles in five minutes on Smogon Univeristy.

Oh hey Soda.


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## delirium (Feb 15, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Yeah true. I also mean EV spreads and such. Their Adamant Dragon Dance Tyranitar is 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe. In my opinion it really doesn't need all that Atk power if it's running Dragon Dance. I prefer to run 112 HP / 148 Def / 248 Spe. It still reaches 501 Atk after Dragon Dance, and thanks to its defenses, it has an easier time setting up.
> 
> Or like Smogon's Deoxys-S. Their standard is:
> 
> ...



I haven't touched ubers (although I have gone into uber battles with OU and UU pokes ) so I haven't looked at their sets, but lol at that standard. I'm hoping that's a typo, because it looks like a lead and thus should have Focus Sash instead of Lefties. That guarantees Rocks and a layer of Spikes and we all know how broken that combo can be.

The second one would definitely be hard to deal with, but that's because of Brightpowder + Double Team which is frowned upon in competitive play anyway (one of the few bans I actually agree with. Stone Edge and like moves missing at crucial points in the match are bad enough).


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## Soda (Feb 15, 2010)

Tools said:


> I'm a total beginner- I started this morning. I got like ten battles in five minutes on Smogon Univeristy.
> 
> Oh hey Soda.



Being a total beginner is okay!! I haven't shoddy'd in 'forever' just cause I'm lazy and have no incentives. The cute pikachu icon just sits down there, untouched.  I guess it's kind of like riding a bike though, cause I'm the same as always.

And yeah, it's not hard at all to get an OU battle on Smogon server any time of the day. It's the most popular. 

Oh hey Tools!!!


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

delirium said:


> I haven't touched ubers (although I have gone into uber battles with OU and UU pokes ) so I haven't looked at their sets, but lol at that standard. I'm hoping that's a typo, because it looks like a lead and thus should have Focus Sash instead of Lefties. That guarantees Rocks and a layer of Spikes and we all know how broken that combo can be.


A lum berry would work just as well against Darkrai leads


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

delirium said:


> I haven't touched ubers (although I have gone into uber battles with OU and UU pokes ) so I haven't looked at their sets, but lol at that standard. I'm hoping that's a typo, because it looks like a lead and thus should have Focus Sash instead of Lefties. That guarantees Rocks and a layer of Spikes and we all know how broken that combo can be.
> 
> The second one would definitely be hard to deal with, but that's because of Brightpowder + Double Team which is frowned upon in competitive play anyway (one of the few bans I actually agree with. Stone Edge and like moves missing at crucial points in the match are bad enough).



It might be. I'm not sure. I was actually going to go with that Deoxys-S until I realized I didn't have Stealth Rock anymore  I'm glad I didn't. I actually wouldn't mind using Spikes and/or Stealth Rock, and Deoxys-S is definitely fast enough to do it (why they suggest Spikes on a slug like Deoxys-D is beyond me), but I guess I like coming up with sets myself, also cause Ubers themselves seldom have sets with impressive strategy like other OU and UU Pokemon. I did think of a Latias set that I haven't tested yet, and I haven't seen any similar sets so far to get a review.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Latias
Bold
EVs: 16 HP / 228 Def / 44 SpA / 16 SpD / 204 Spe
@ Soul Dew
---
HP: 305
Atk: 176
Def: 300
SpA: 400-401 w/Soul Dew
SpD: 450 w/Soul Dew
Spe: 307
----
~Psychic / Dragon Pulse
~Rest
~Psycho Shift
~Sleep Talk




Yeah, that's why I like in-game. I battle anything goes. One team of mine can consist of NU, UU, OU, and Ubers together. As long as the stats or moveset isn't illegal (like Blastoise with Aqua Jet and Mirror Coat), I'll play with/against it  It doesn't make sense though. I know Double Team is annoying, but Spore, while I love the move, is even more hax. I'm just glad Wi-fi/PBR has no restrictions lol.

Also, a Smeargle I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned is this one:

Own Tempo
Jolly / Timid
@ Focus Sash
252 HP / 4 Def or SpD / 252 Spe
~Spore
~Mean Look / Block / Spider Web
~Lock-On / Mind Reader
~Sheer Cold / Guillotine / Fissure / Horn Drill

I've seen Spore, Substitute, Lock-On, and Sheer Cold, but opponents know to switch out of it. With Mean Look, it becomes more useful. I haven't really tried it out yet, so I don't know if it works.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

ohko moves are mostly claused


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Soda said:


> Being a total beginner is okay!! I haven't shoddy'd in 'forever' just cause I'm lazy and have no incentives. The cute pikachu icon just sits down there, untouched.  I guess it's kind of like riding a bike though, cause I'm the same as always.
> 
> And yeah, it's not hard at all to get an OU battle on Smogon server any time of the day. It's the most popular.
> 
> Oh hey Tools!!!



Thanks for the moral boost Soda. I'll build the a very good strong team sooner or later.

How you doing? Don't go Mantra on me again.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

I hate playing against people who use lots of clauses. I'll do item clause, but I like playing with no strings attached. I mean, what challenge, or what show of skill and strategy, is it to play against someone who uses certain, legally obtained, movesets and strategies, if you're just gonna clause them so they can't use their full potential? That's even cheaper than Darkrai to me.

Well, since I battle in-game, I won't have to worry about that as much lol.


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

I have yet to have any problems with clauses. And the only in-game clauses are the one the opponent and I agree on before the battle starts.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Yeah it's annoying when people sneak clauses in on you. Saw it happen to another player on youtube >.<

I don't dislike the clauses because they hamper my strategies. Most of the time, they don't, but I don't like to use them anyway. That Smeargle is the only OHKO using Pokemon I'd ever use, but even without I'd still play without the OHKO clause, or the evasion clause. I just don't like security blankets I guess D:

Though I'd be ok with clauses if my opponent and I came to a mutual agreement.


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## Tools (Feb 15, 2010)

Just rereading over the Shoddy clauses and the only clause I would ever really put on is the No-Uber one and maybe the OHKO Clause. But OHKO can easily be avoided cause most pokemon that can use them are pretty slow anyways, if I remember correctly.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

Without sleep clause someone can put your whole team to sleep with spore


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

Only Smeargle could really pull it off without needing insane luck anyway 

I've seen a better way to use Smeargle anyway, but it's only for double battles, and last time I checked out Shoddy, it didn't have double battles :/


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

I think only 3 or so Pokemon can learn Spore. Parasect, Smeargle, and Breloom. It would be pretty sad if a team lacked any way to get rid of Parasect and Smeargle, one with a 4x weakness to a common type and  the other with absolute shit defenses.

Breloom is a bit trickier. It's durable enough to make use of Substitute + Spore. Still, there's always a way around it, be it Magic Coat, Magic Guard, Taunt, Insomnia, Lum Berry, Sleep Talk, Safeguard, etc..


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## Shiron (Feb 15, 2010)

Choice Scarf Breloom. Outspeeds anything that's not a Jolly Aerodactyl or faster, or has 70 speed or greater and is holding its own Choice Scarf. Stuff like that is why there's a Sleep Clause.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2010)

But then it's stuck with Spore, so it kinda defeats itself, lol.

Of course you could switch after that, but that right there is two free sleep turns for your opponent. Sometimes sleep only lasts one turn, so you could be giving the opponent a free hit when you switch ;o;


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## Soda (Feb 15, 2010)

I myself agree with having most of the basic clauses. ;o

Breloom is a complete bitch sometimes if you don't have the right counter for it. Not just spore makes it so potent, but poison heal is just like...x_x

Also Justin, Shoddy Battle 2 will have double battles and tons of other new features...if it ever comes out.


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2010)

I remember way back when when shoddy 2 was supposed to be out by september of 09


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## Jυstin (Feb 16, 2010)

Soda said:


> I myself agree with having most of the basic clauses. ;o
> 
> Breloom is a complete bitch sometimes if you don't have the right counter for it. Not just spore makes it so potent, but poison heal is just like...x_x
> 
> Also Justin, Shoddy Battle 2 will have double battles and tons of other new features...if it ever comes out.



I'm trying to breed one with Poison Heal. Though I don't like most of Smogon's suggestions, they have his two most perfect sets listed 

Oh good. I wanna see how the old strategy works in the 4th gen then. It only works with double battles D:


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## Duy Nguyen (Feb 16, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> I hate playing against people who use lots of clauses. I'll do item clause, but I like playing with no strings attached. I mean, what challenge, or what show of skill and strategy, is it to play against someone who uses certain, legally obtained, movesets and strategies, if you're just gonna clause them so they can't use their full potential? That's even cheaper than Darkrai to me.
> 
> Well, since I battle in-game, I won't have to worry about that as much lol.



The main reason of the Sleep Clause is to not reduce the game to a game of complete Randomness. Sleep has no effected factors in which the Pokemon will wake up, unless they used Rest. You can just make a halfassed prediction and pretty much cripple a whole team.

Sleep, Species, and Double Team Clause should always be a standard in my opinion.


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## Pringer Lagann (Feb 16, 2010)

Why is it that when I try to get away with 0 Speed IV's for Jirachi, shoddy won't let me do it?


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## Shiron (Feb 16, 2010)

Pringer Lagann said:


> Why is it that when I try to get away with 0 Speed IV's for Jirachi, shoddy won't let me do it?


Jirachi's a Legendary, Event Pokemon. As a result, not all IV and Nature combinations are possible on it, as you can't breed it or anything--only get it through various events, which limits the number of ways the game can generate IVs for it. Just keep changing unimportant IVs until it lets you. If you're using Hidden Power on it, then just drop those same IVs by increments of 4 to keep that Hidden Power until something works.


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## Pringer Lagann (Feb 16, 2010)

Shiron said:


> Jirachi's a Legendary, Event Pokemon. As a result, not all IV and Nature combinations are possible on it, as you can't breed it or anything--only get it through various events, which limits the number of ways the game can generate IVs for it. Just keep changing unimportant IVs until it lets you. If you're using Hidden Power on it, then just drop those same IVs by increments of 4 to keep that Hidden Power until something works.



Oh, so that's the case. Now I'll have better wish support for my trick room team


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## Jυstin (Feb 16, 2010)

Duy Nguyen said:


> The main reason of the Sleep Clause is to not reduce the game to a game of complete Randomness. Sleep has no effected factors in which the Pokemon will wake up, unless they used Rest. You can just make a halfassed prediction and pretty much cripple a whole team.
> 
> Sleep, Species, and Double Team Clause should always be a standard in my opinion.



In my opinion, Thunder Wave is more broken. Unlike Spore, more Pokemon can learn it. Sleep has a 1 in 4 chance of lasting an extra turn, being a 1-4 turn move, while paralysis has a 1 in 4 chance that the opponent won't be able to attack, essentially making it as useless as if it were asleep. Thing is paralysis doesn't cure itself. Also, it divides Speed by 4. I'd rather have a Pokemon put to sleep than paralyzed 

Doesn't species clause prevent two of the same Pokemon on one team? I'd agree to that one. Though if someone wants to fight me with 6 Kyogre or something, I'd give it a shot


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## Duy Nguyen (Feb 17, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> In my opinion, Thunder Wave is more broken. Unlike Spore, more Pokemon can learn it. Sleep has a 1 in 4 chance of lasting an extra turn, being a 1-4 turn move, while paralysis has a 1 in 4 chance that the opponent won't be able to attack, essentially making it as useless as if it were asleep. Thing is paralysis doesn't cure itself. Also, it divides Speed by 4. I'd rather have a Pokemon put to sleep than paralyzed
> 
> Doesn't species clause prevent two of the same Pokemon on one team? I'd agree to that one. Though if someone wants to fight me with 6 Kyogre or something, I'd give it a shot



Paralysis doesn't make you lose complete control over your Pokemon. Also...who the heck uses TWave anymore?


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## delirium (Feb 17, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> In my opinion, Thunder Wave is more broken. Unlike Spore, more Pokemon can learn it. Sleep has a 1 in 4 chance of lasting an extra turn, being a 1-4 turn move, while paralysis has a 1 in 4 chance that the opponent won't be able to attack, essentially making it as useless as if it were asleep. Thing is paralysis doesn't cure itself. Also, it divides Speed by 4. I'd rather have a Pokemon put to sleep than paralyzed



Sleep clause just means you can't put more than one pokemon on your opponent's team to sleep. That's a pretty damn good clause. Can you imagine a Breloom behind a sub and all six of your pokemon are asleep? You have to sit there and take Focus Punches to the face. That's dumb.

That doesn't make Paralysis any more stupid though when there's a chance for parahax. I've lost a good number of battles because I lost a turn to full paralysis.



> Paralysis doesn't make you lose complete control over your Pokemon. Also...who the heck uses TWave anymore?



Jirachi/serene grace abusers lol another broken aspect to the game that requires no skill


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## Soda (Feb 17, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> In my opinion, Thunder Wave is more broken. Unlike Spore, more Pokemon can learn it. Sleep has a 1 in 4 chance of lasting an extra turn, being a 1-4 turn move, while paralysis has a 1 in 4 chance that the opponent won't be able to attack, essentially making it as useless as if it were asleep. Thing is paralysis doesn't cure itself. Also, it divides Speed by 4. I'd rather have a Pokemon put to sleep than paralyzed
> 
> Doesn't species clause prevent two of the same Pokemon on one team? I'd agree to that one. Though if someone wants to fight me with 6 Kyogre or something, I'd give it a shot



Do you want a Gyarados/Salamence getting one or two free d-dances when you are asleep while you could finish them if you were paralyzed and didn't go fully par?

But honestly I hate paralyzation just as much in the current game since it can be more prevalent and I always get fully par'd like 5 times in a row even though there's only a 25% chance. -_- But I'd choose it over sleep.

Also I don't know what you mean by the sleep thing, it's pre-determined how many turns you will be asleep when you fall asleep. (1, 2, 3, or 4)

Thunder Wave is bate for Jolteon (<3) and ground types anyways though.


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## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Duy Nguyen said:


> Paralysis doesn't make you lose complete control over your Pokemon. Also...who the heck uses TWave anymore?



Who doesn't use Thunder Wave? 100% accuracy paralysis. That's fucking deadly.

Sleep causes you to lose complete control for 1-4 turns. 2 on average. Paralysis doesn't take away complete control, but you lose about 75% functionality which doesn't go away.



delirium said:


> Sleep clause just means you can't put more than one pokemon on your opponent's team to sleep. That's a pretty damn good clause. Can you imagine a Breloom behind a sub and all six of your pokemon are asleep? You have to sit there and take Focus Punches to the face. That's dumb.
> 
> That doesn't make Paralysis any more stupid though when there's a chance for parahax. I've lost a good number of battles because I lost a turn to full paralysis.



That's why I always have at least one or two Pokemon capable of handling sleep  Like:

Torterra
Careful
@ Leftovers
88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 SpD
~Curse
~Earthquake
~Wood Hammer
~Sleep Talk

I don't have Torterra yet, but it's one I'm training in the future. I have a Machamp with Sleep Talk and a few Pokemon with Taunt to stop Spore. I guess I mean to say I come prepared to handle it, because it can be annoying to deal with 

That's why paralysis is so annoying -__- Though even if sleep is worse, Parafusion in my opinion is even worse. You have 25% Speed, a 25% chance to miss your turn, and another 50% chance to miss your turn and hurt yourself. I saw a Giratina pwned by a Dunesparce and Spiritomb with this combo. None of them fainted. The trainer switched after Dunesparce TWaved it.



Soda said:


> Do you want a Gyarados/Salamence getting one or two free d-dances when you are asleep while you could finish them if you were paralyzed and didn't go fully par?
> 
> But honestly I hate paralyzation just as much in the current game since it can be more prevalent and I always get fully par'd like 5 times in a row even though there's only a 25% chance. -_- But I'd choose it over sleep.
> 
> ...



Seeing as neither of those two can learn any Sleep inducing moves, the trainer would have to switch and waste a sleep turn sending out Gyarados or Salamence. If my Pokemon wakes up on the switch turn, then they just gave me a free hit. If my Pokemon wakes up on the turn they use Dragon Dance, then it would be as if they started out with Salamece or Gyarados in the first place. If my Pokemon is asleep for 3 or 4 turns, then they'd be getting 1 or 2 free Dragon Dances. If they do, lucky them. I have Focus Sash Pokemon that can OHKO Gyarados and Salamence, so they wouldn't be getting far anyway if they pulled it off and KO'd my sleeping Pokemon 

What I meant was, there's a 1/4 chance sleep will last 4, 3, 2, or 1 turn. So it's pretty much like Paralysis. It's more crippling than paralysis, but what annoys me more is that paralysis stays on your Pokemon -___-

Though I've noticed Lum Berry becoming more popular as Sleep and Paralysis are


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## Duy Nguyen (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay here is the big reason as to why Sleep Clause is important. It is pretty much the same reason why Double Team is not allowed. If there are no Sleep Clause you are definitely going to need some kind of Sleep counter like say a Pokemon that has Sleep Talk or pretty much all of your sweepers having to have that one Berry that breaks Sleep for you.

Double Team is a banned move is that it reduces the game to chance. It WILL force you to have some kind of Hazer or Phazer to deal with the Double Team.

In the case of Paralysis, it is not needed. The threat of Paralysis is not as big as Sleep. You don't need a definite counter to Paralysis like Sleep does. The only Pokemon that pops in my head that takes full advantage of Paralysis are Togekiss and Jirachi. The big thing about Paralysis is that it cuts your SPD. There are plenty of Pokemon out there that can care less about their SPD dropping. A CBed TTar or Scizor can care less about losing their speed. 

Also like stated above, if you get Slept, you are extremely vulnerable to getting set up on. Paralysis still allows you to fight and ruin the setup. 

You only need one example to say Sleep is broken...

Breloom uses Spore.
You fall asleep.
Breloom uses Sub.

It is braindead from then on. Unless you have some kind of Sleep Talker that can atleast 2HKO Breloom, you're screwed. If you have a Pokemon that has that Berry that wakes you up, you're gonna have to sacrifice the already slept Pokemon to bring him in safely.


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## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

Yeah, that's true, i've both soloed with and been soloed by brelooms.


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## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Either that, or just play it out till your Pokemon wakes up. Putting a Pokemon to sleep by no means equals an instant victory. You can play with Sleep Clauses on or not. As for me, I don't use them, even if I'm not using any Pokemon that can induce sleep. There are ways to counter sleep without having to train a Pokemon, specifically for the role of countering sleep.

A lot of Sleep threats are easy to eliminate anyway. Smeargle, Jumpluff, Parasect, Breloom... none of them are by any means invincible, and are easy to OHKO. Pokemon capable of inducing sleep usually don't have stellar defenses. The most threatening sleeper in my opinion is Jumpluff, simply because of its speed. A slow sleep user is usually easy to stop if you don't let it set up.

I've never found Double Team that useful unless the Pokemon using it is speedy and can use an instant recovery move. In most cases, Double Team is just a wasted move. If your Pokemon is slower, gets hit and loses half its health, then uses Double Team, chances are it's going to be KO'd on the next turn without being able to do anything.

That's what makes Double Team a double edged sword. It usually requires one or two other moves to support it. Deoxys-S needs Recover and Psycho Shift to make Double Team effective.

If a Pokemon becomes paralyzed though, it pretty much loses all usefulness. Not all Pokemon mind their speed being divided by 4, but they do mind it if they move last AND lose their chance to attack on any given turn. That often means the difference between winning and losing. Sleep is just as deadly in this instance. The difference is that sleep is temporary, and some Pokemon can even get around it. With paralysis, there is no way around it.

A lot of people also use Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Endure + Salac + Reversal Scizor. They don't like paralysis one bit, though they don't like sleep either. Both conditions make them virtually fodder.

Sleep's sole purpose basically _is_ for setting up, though not many Pokemon that induce sleep are capable of setting anything spectacular up.

Some use it for free hits, and others use it to set up. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. If the Pokemon is only asleep for one turn, then it's completely redundant. Sleep is most effective if the Pokemon is asleep for at least 3 turns. Not many Pokemon that can induce sleep can pull out anything capable of defeating a whole team in just two turns. And if you plan on switching out another Pokemon to set up while the opponent is asleep, that also takes a turn. Doing that requires the opponent stay asleep an extra turn to make up for it, and if the opponent wakes up after just one turn, you just gave them a free hit. If you manage to set up while a Pokemon is asleep, say with Dragon Dance Salamence, it can still be mauled by a decently common Focus Sasher with Ice Beam, Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor, Thunder Wave, Sleep Powder, or a number of moves.

Then paralysis, while it doesn't provide an absolute threat of stopping a Pokemon cold, it can make it almost impossibly hard for the opponent to set up or counter your set up. Also, Pokemon that are capable of using Thunder Wave are generally more powerful and dangerous than Pokemon that can induce sleep, like Mewtwo, Dragonite, Magnezone, Tyranitar, Azelf, Dialga, Porygon-Z, Rayquaza, ELectivire, Miltank, and so on. You do not want to be facing them with paralysis on your shoulders. Breloom is an exception, and Smeargle if you use it right, though the two are still incredibly frail, mediocre in speed, and easy to OHKO.

Breloom is deadly with Substitute and Spore, but here's the thing. The set up is deadly and rewarding, but that's because it's so hard to set up in the first place. Breloom is slow and is easily OHKO'd by a lot of Pokemon. The set up is a complete gamble, and even then, there are ways to stop it without OHKOing it.

Taunt is one of them. After using it, all it can do is Focus Punch. Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp is another. Paralysis and Burn make it borderline useless, and they both prevent its Toxic Orb from activating and triggering Poison Heal. Ghosts completely shut it down since it only carries Focus Punch. And fast sleep inducers like Gengar and Jumpluff can hit it with its own sleep medicine before Breloom can even open its Nytol.


The main point is that neither paralysis, nor sleep, is a godly be all to and all condition that has no way of being countered. I really don't see why people make such a big deal or make it sound unbeatable. You just gotta think outside the box


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## Zoidberg (Feb 17, 2010)

Has anybody tried a gravity-oriented team? I managed to score a win or two by spamming one hit kill moves while gravity was up.


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## Duy Nguyen (Feb 17, 2010)

By all means, you don't send out Breloom on a whim and randomly set up. All you need to do is scout a little and let him come out safely. He just needs 1 opening to set up on you. This can be achieved through scouting and either safely switching or better yet revenge killing.

You run Spore to set something to sleep.
Now you set up Subs.
Now use Focus Punch. Regardless something is going to get hurt even on switch.
New Pokemon comes in.
New Pokemon outruns Breloom and breaks Subs.
Oh wells...Breloom put you to sleep with Spore.

Now rinse repeat until win. The only way you get out of this is if like stated before, you have an absolute counter or you just sit on your ass hoping your fast Pokemon wakes up, survive a  Focus Punch, and breaks Breloom's Subs. Then hopefully OHKOing Breloom or else he's gonna set up on you again.

This causes the game to go into a game of complete chance.

Same as Double Team...
Zapdos has great resistance to many types and boasts some good defensive stats. 

Zapdos comes in and DT.
Say you switch due to the threat of Zapdos on current Pokemon.
Zapdos DTs again.

From there, Zapdos can just DT his ass off and shrug off hell of a lot of moves. Then he can just set up Subs, and Baton Pass everything to something beastly like a Swords Dancing Scizor. Good luck breaking Scizor's Subs with DT up while he sets up SD and Bullet Punches your whole team to death.

Again DT, reduces the game to a game of complete chance like Sleep. If you didn't catch Zapdos in the first 2 DTs you're more than likely screwed. I use to have a Garchomp with Bright Powder and Subs. I just set up Sandstorm and Subbed until I get a lucky dodge. From there I just SDed and swept. It was a weaker form of DT but it showed how random the game can get.

I don't understand why anyone would use the said set of Scizor you listed above. There is only 2 true sets for Scizor now and it's the more popular CB set or the SD set.


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## South of Hell (Feb 17, 2010)

My notes on this in bold.


Duy Nguyen said:


> By all means, you don't send out Breloom on a whim and randomly set up. All you need to do is scout a little and let him come out safely. He just needs 1 opening to set up on you. This can be achieved through scouting and either safely switching or better yet revenge killing.
> 
> You run Spore to set something to sleep.
> Now you set up Subs.
> ...



All these strategies fall to common Taunt Aerodaytyl.

Also might mention now that standard metagame has Evasion Clause which means that Evasion / Accuracy moves and items are illegal.

Hmm, where is Snorlax rated lately? OU or UU? That thing with Curse, Rest, Return, and Crunch rapes half the OU scene.


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## Zoidberg (Feb 17, 2010)

South of Hell said:


> My notes on this in bold.
> 
> 
> All these strategies fall to common Taunt Aerodaytyl.
> ...



Which is why people field Azelf with thunderbolt as their starter 

OU, but the glorious Togekiss and his flinch hax/aura sphere combo beats down poor snorlax


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## Pringer Lagann (Feb 17, 2010)

So I see my favorite 4th gen starter is OU now


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## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Duy Nguyen said:


> By all means, you don't send out Breloom on a whim and randomly set up. All you need to do is scout a little and let him come out safely. He just needs 1 opening to set up on you. This can be achieved through scouting and either safely switching or better yet revenge killing.
> 
> You run Spore to set something to sleep.
> Now you set up Subs.
> ...



Scouting for an opening by no means requires no skill. One wrong move and you just sacrificed your Breloom. I've used this Breloom before, and I've been able to set it up and start Focus Punching, but it's still perfectly beatable.

Ghosts, for one thing, don't fear Breloom in the slightest, and plenty of Pokemon are capable of taking hits from Focus Punch while asleep. For Breloom to safely set up, it's almost required that you scout out your opponent's entire team, so by the time Breloom comes out, you're likely to have KO'd 2 or three of your opponent's Pokemon in the process. It's not like this Breloom would be sweeping whole teams. It's possible, but I wouldn't count on it. Its threats need to be eliminated first.

Any Ghost type, any Flying type, almost any Pokemon with Flamethrower, almost any Pokemon with Ice Beam, almost any Pokemon with Sludge Bomb, almost any Pokemon with Psychic, any Pokemon with Thunder Wave, any Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, any Pokemon with Taunt, any Pokemon with Sleep Talk, any Pokemon with Sleep Powder and a few others I can't think of are all threats to Breloom, and most of them are common. It's possible for every Pokemon on the opponent's team to be a threat to Breloom. If Breloom were faster, those threats wouldn't be such a problem, but his Speed makes him easy to counter.

Like I said, I have used this Breloom before. I know how powerful it is, but also how vulnerable it is. It's risky and requires skill to pull off, but it's worth it if you can. I just wouldn't put my whole team's success on it. It can go down just like that D:



> Same as Double Team...
> Zapdos has great resistance to many types and boasts some good defensive stats.
> 
> Zapdos comes in and DT.
> ...



If someone's crazy enough to put Double Team on Zapdos, and lucky enough to make it work, I have no problem with that. It's always risky. My opponent's already missed me after just one Double Team, but then hit me twice in a row after the 5th and 6th Double Team. You just can't be sure that strategy will work unless you use something else to back it up, like your Garchomp.

That's actually a pretty good strategy, and I'd have no problem facing a Garchomp like that. It still faces its share of problems, since having its Substitute broken twice or even once can make it hard to set up, seeing how each Substitute drops 1/4 of your HP. The setup really shines against slower opponents. Faster Pokemon can make it borderline impossible to set up. They _have_ to miss, preferably more than once, or Garchomp is pretty much screwed. Sandstorm support seems mandatory for it. Aura Sphere completely nullifies all of this though, and it _is_ a pretty common move.

I tried the exact same set with Ninjask, and it only worked 20% of the time. I did the same thing as you. Substitute until the opponent missed me, then used Double Team. Most of the time, the opponent ALWAYS hit Ninjask and broke the Substitute. Then after 4 turns, when Ninjask couldn't Sub anymore, it got KO'd. The same thing would happen even after getting in one free Double Team. You're just rolling the dice with sets like that. I don't use that Ninjask anymore.

It's a lot less up to chance with Deoxys-S. It's less frail than Ninjask and faster than both Ninjask and Garchomp, plus it's capable of healing with Recover and removing status with Psycho Shift. I would only recommend Double Team on Pokemon capable of something like that, otherwise it's just as likely to succeed as it is to fail. Though, even that Deoxys-S has a downside. It can't do shit to Dark types ;__;

I myself have no problem with things going up to luck. That's just part of the battling experience, that's been there since the original GB Pokemon generations. That's what makes Stadium 2 and the battle style of G/S/C my favorite to date. Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, Fire Red, Leaf Green, Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum Pokemon matches are dangerously close to being exactly like Yugioh duels.

Plus, it's not like not playing without the clauses makes it unfair to one side. That means no restrictions for _both_ sides. In almost all cases, Double Team is an equal gamble for both players. I really have no problem with that. Pokemon Stadium 2 had no clauses. They weren't needed then, and so far I haven't needed them since. Takes the fun out of a raw all out battle :/



> I don't understand why anyone would use the said set of Scizor you listed above. There is only 2 true sets for Scizor now and it's the more popular CB set or the SD set.



That's the Scizor I'm gonna be using. It's set to have 300/350 Atk, 296/246 Def, and 251 Speed, and uses Swords Dance, X-Scissor, Endure, and Reversal, with a Salac Berry. That takes more skill to pull off than just strapping a CB on something and having it plow through opponents. There's a level of cheapness to that as well. That's one reason sleep exists, to counter such powerhouses.

Don't get me wrong. CB Scizor is a beast, but it's way too overdone and requires no skill or imagination to use. After Swords Dance, a Scizor that has 300/350 Atk passes any CB Scizor's Atk, then using Endure + Salac Berry increases its Speed to 376, outspeeding a majority of Pokemon, while its two attacks have a power of 180 and 200. There's not much that can stop that thing short of a priority user or a Pokemon with a base 125 Speed with its Nature and 252 EVs invested in it.

Of course, that threat can be eliminated if Scizor has Bullet Punch and Technician instead of X-Scissor and Swarm. My Scizor has the latter since it can't learn Bullet Punch on Diamond


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## delirium (Feb 17, 2010)

You actually proved his point, Double Team is all about rolling dice, whether it's in your favor or not. But because it's about rolling dice, it's about chance, which doesn't require skill but luck. The point of the clauses in competitive battling is to remove chance and over centralization.

But lol at theorymoning. It's so easy name off a bunch of counters to said strategies, but once in battle all that shit gets thrown out the window because there are so many ways to pull off said strategies that 6 pokemon just won't be able to account for all of them. Breloom is NOT the only one that can sleep a pokemon. He's just an example, albeit a very good example, of the broken that is a match without sleep clause. Genger behind a sub can pretty much do the exact same thing using Hypnosis and is free to pound you with its high SAtk all while having a larger movepool to score super effective on pokemon (not even to mention being faster).



Zoidberg said:


> Has anybody tried a gravity-oriented team? I managed to score a win or two by spamming one hit kill moves while gravity was up.



I have a gravity team. It still needs tweaking, but for a gimmick team it wins half the time which isn't so bad, again for a gimmick team.


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## Duy Nguyen (Feb 17, 2010)

You guys should read the important part of my post where I talk about CHANCE. Both Sleeping the whole team and setting up Double Team reduces the game to CHANCE. This is the main reason as to why the Clauses exist.

*Regarding South of Hell's Post:*
You're just throwing random obvious counters. But these counters are rendered useless if there is no Sleep Clause and Breloom already has a Sub up. If Breloom comes in on something that can't outrun, OHKO it, or make it through the Sleep. All counters are meaningless unless you are LUCKY and play the game on a game of CHANCE.

If you send in a Ghost type. Whatever, you lived a Focus Punch. He still has Seed Bomb to hit you with, and WILL sleep you if Sleep Clause is not on. You still have to waste a turn breaking that subs of his while he just set you to sleep and re-sub.

2HKOing Zapdos is pretty much a fail to stop him from setting up. If he comes in on something he threatens and can shrug off he will get 1 DT up. Switching allows him to get 2. SE already has bad accuracy as it does, you're playing a big gamble here. Zapdos can just keep using Subs until you miss to get another DT up. I don't know why you list Blissey cause once it comes in Zapdos can pretty much DT to max. 

Again, you bring up another random counter and disregarding the post about the full set up. Scizor got BPed DTs on him with a Subs up. You'd have to be super lucky to break the subs, and that would've even matter cause Scizor will OHKO you now with Brick Break/Superpower. 

Yes, I know Garchomp has been moved up to Ubers, I'm talking about the early days of DP. Lastly, I was talking about the Evasion Clause and how it is important, you pretty much disregarded that too.

Well it's futile to go on, cause you guys already proved my point on Double Team and Sleeping reduces the game to chance.


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## Death-kun (Feb 17, 2010)

Pringer Lagann said:


> So I see my favorite 4th gen starter is OU now



I'm assuming you mean Empoleon. In that case, he's been OU for quite a while actually.


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## Velocity (Feb 17, 2010)

Hmm... I'm not big on competitive battling, but I certainly wouldn't mind branching out to it. Would Absol be a viable addition to a team? I know Smogon says Life Orbing Swords Dance Absol is good but they also have Absol pinned as underused, which would lead me to believe even a Life Orbing Swords Dance Absol won't be useful against pure teams of OU Pokémon (but I may be wrong) - I was thinking of Swords Dance, Stone Edge, Sucker Punch and Superpower as Absol's moves.

Even so, I'd like to build a team around Absol and Arcanine... Hmm... Any suggestions?


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## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

delirium said:


> You actually proved his point, Double Team is all about rolling dice, whether it's in your favor or not. But because it's about rolling dice, it's about chance, which doesn't require skill but luck. The point of the clauses in competitive battling is to remove chance and over centralization.
> 
> But lol at theorymoning. It's so easy name off a bunch of counters to said strategies, but once in battle all that shit gets thrown out the window because there are so many ways to pull off said strategies that 6 pokemon just won't be able to account for all of them. Breloom is NOT the only one that can sleep a pokemon. He's just an example, albeit a very good example, of the broken that is a match without sleep clause. Genger behind a sub can pretty much do the exact same thing using Hypnosis and is free to pound you with its high SAtk all while having a larger movepool to score super effective on pokemon (not even to mention being faster).



I guess this is why "anything goes" is so much fun to me  Also, I don't like using clauses because if I win, it doesn't feel legit to me. It feels like i had handicaps 

The part that balances it out is that both sides would be free to use these moves, so still it's anyone's game. I like the adversity that comes without clauses 

I also like that Gengar strategy. Only part that sets me off is Hypnosis' 60/70% acc


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm seeing a lot of stall teams that are just bulky pokemon slapped together without any real interaction, that don't even manage to set down hazards or have really weak finishing power -u-


----------



## delirium (Feb 17, 2010)

Wintrale said:


> Hmm... I'm not big on competitive battling, but I certainly wouldn't mind branching out to it. Would Absol be a viable addition to a team? I know Smogon says Life Orbing Swords Dance Absol is good but they also have Absol pinned as underused, which would lead me to believe even a Life Orbing Swords Dance Absol won't be useful against pure teams of OU Pokémon (but I may be wrong) - I was thinking of Swords Dance, Stone Edge, Sucker Punch and Superpower as Absol's moves.
> 
> Even so, I'd like to build a team around Absol and Arcanine... Hmm... Any suggestions?



The two things that really hinder Absol are his speed and defenses. He's very frail and just a little too slow to sweep. Sucker Punch usually helps in the speed department letting him always hit first, assuming your opponent attacks. But there are other priority moves that are just as prevalent like Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave which are used by faster pokemon (Infernape & Lucario). Speaking of Lucario who is resistant to Dark there is Scizor, the number one used pokemon in competitive play in today's metagame by far. While he has his own priority move he's slower, but again he resists dark and can easily OHKO Absol not even needing any boosts.

Enter Substitute. With a Sub up you're guaranteed to get a hit in on any of those pokemon while living for later in the battle. So a good set would be:

Absol@Leftovers
Jolly/Adamant (depending on what you want more, I'd go with Jolly, personally)
4HP/252Atk/252Spe
~sub
~swords dance
~sucker punch
~superpower

The Sub will protect you from priority moves and status, especially will-o-wisp which is a very popular status move used against Absol. Being behind a sub also forces your opponent to attack since they want to break your sub which makes sucker punch even more useful. superpower is for anything dark can't touch give you perfect coverage (nothing in the game resists both dark and fighting at the same time).

Arcanine... mmmmm. I love this pokemon so much. EXTREMELY versatile. He can be a sweeper, a tank, a supporter. He has so many uses. Just to get an idea, you can actually use Arcanine as a counter to Gyarados, Ttar and any other physical attacker by using a Bulky Bold Arcanine with Intimidate. You're barely 2HKO'd by these guys but can Will-o-Wisp dropping their attacks to 3HKO. And with Sunny Day support and Morning Sun you can shrug off those physical attacks and recover all your health back.

Like I said, though, you can make him a support character and surprise people with double status and use Toxic on unsuspecting water counters. You can make him an Anti-Lead. He can be a devastating sweeper with Sunny Day up which makes Flare Blitz that much stronger and again, Morning Sun heals off that damage.

Arcanine is actually a good pair with Absol now that I think about it as his abilities are also very, very good. With Indimidate you can switch in to all three of the pokemon I mentioned (Infernape, Lucario, Scizor). Close Combat from Infernape after the Intimidate is a 3HKO, Lucario score a 2HKO but runs from a fire move and Scizor is Arcanine's bitch. You can give him Flash Fire instead to absorb Will-o-Wisp and power up Flare Blitz even more letting you 2HKO even water types if the Sun is up.

So yeah... Arcanine is really a beast that can do whatever you need it to do. Just depends on your 5 other pokemon and what your team needs.



Jυstin said:


> I guess this is why "anything goes" is so much fun to me  Also, I don't like using clauses because if I win, it doesn't feel legit to me. It feels like i had handicaps
> 
> The part that balances it out is that both sides would be free to use these moves, so still it's anyone's game. I like the adversity that comes without clauses
> 
> I also like that Gengar strategy. Only part that sets me off is Hypnosis' 60/70% acc



Most clauses I don't care for. I'll even battle ubers. There's just some that are understandable because without them the game is too easily abused or it severely limits what pokemon you have to use in order to compete.

Yeah, Hypnosis's accuracy does suck. I was said when they re-nerf'd it. Hypnosis on Milotic was beastily  A Yawning Jolteon accomplishes the same task though and might even work better in some ways causing switches and racking up damage from SR and Spikes. Jolteon is also faster letting it set up sub easier. Espeon can do the same, a little slower than Jolteon but the same SpA as Gengar (same speed, too).


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

delirium said:


> Most clauses I don't care for. I'll even battle ubers. There's just some that are understandable because without them the game is too easily abused or it severely limits what pokemon you have to use in order to compete.
> 
> Yeah, Hypnosis's accuracy does suck. I was said when they re-nerf'd it. Hypnosis on Milotic was beastily  A Yawning Jolteon accomplishes the same task though and might even work better in some ways causing switches and racking up damage from SR and Spikes. Jolteon is also faster letting it set up sub easier. Espeon can do the same, a little slower than Jolteon but the same SpA as Gengar (same speed, too).



It's normally not a problem for me either, since I don't use Evasion or Sleep heavy teams anyway. Deoxys-S is the only Pokemon I have using DT and Victreebel is my only sleeper so far  Roserade can do the job better and then set up Rain Dance + Weather Ball.

Jolteon can learn Yawn? And Espeon too? Holy shit that's awesome! I didn't look into them much in 4th generation yet  I could see Yawn working well to set up a Substitute too. Espeon could probably do it better thanks to Morning Sun, assuming their abysmal Def and HP doesn't get them OHKO'd 

Thanks for letting me know. I'm gonna look into YawnSub sets now


----------



## Velocity (Feb 17, 2010)

delirium said:


> Arcanine... mmmmm. I love this pokemon so much. EXTREMELY versatile. He can be a sweeper, a tank, a supporter. He has so many uses. Just to get an idea, you can actually use Arcanine as a counter to Gyarados, Ttar and any other physical attacker by using a Bulky Bold Arcanine with Intimidate. You're barely 2HKO'd by these guys but can Will-o-Wisp dropping their attacks to 3HKO. And with Sunny Day support and Morning Sun you can shrug off those physical attacks and recover all your health back.
> 
> Like I said, though, you can make him a support character and surprise people with double status and use Toxic on unsuspecting water counters. You can make him an Anti-Lead. He can be a devastating sweeper with Sunny Day up which makes Flare Blitz that much stronger and again, Morning Sun heals off that damage.
> 
> ...



Right... Using the Smogon site... Here's my UU team. I get the feeling, though, that someone mislabelled Rhyperior. 

Morning Glory Arcanine (Flare Blitz, ExtremeSpeed, Morning Sun, Will 'O Wisp)
Utility Blastoise (Surf, Rapid Spin, Yawn, Protect)
Baton Pass Leafeon (Leaf Blade, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Roar)
Standard Rhyperior (Earthquake, Megahorn, Stone Edge, Stealth Rock)
Swords Dance Absol (Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Superpower, Psycho Cut)
Mixed Attacker Blaziken (Fire Blast, Superpower, Hidden Power Electric, Vacuum Wave)


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Feb 17, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> I'm assuming you mean Empoleon. In that case, he's been OU for quite a while actually.



Really? last I paid attention was 2 or 3 years ago


----------



## Death-kun (Feb 17, 2010)

Pringer Lagann said:


> Really? last I paid attention was 2 or 3 years ago



Yup, for quite a while. I love that penguin.  Agility + Petaya Berry = awesome.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

End then some Empoleon carry Aqua Jet, another reason it's OU. Can't feel safe around it if your HP is low


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> End then some Empoleon carry Aqua Jet, another reason it's OU. Can't feel safe around it if your HP is low



Heh, my empoleon has been carrying aqua jet for 2+ years lol. I guess my gym tricks were bound to be discovered eventually lol. (the main thing people don't expect is his Pdef, i love these apes who thing they'll 1hko me with just one close combat)


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Heh, my empoleon has been carrying aqua jet for 2+ years lol. I guess my gym tricks were bound to be discovered eventually lol. (the main thing people don't expect is his Pdef, i love these apes who thing they'll 1hko me with just one close combat)



Same with mine. It's a specially based attacker, but it has Aqua Jet to catch opponents off guard. I didn't EV train it though. I used it to get through the game  Sounds like you like to do more defensively too. I wanna train a Curse Torterra with max SpD and 353 HP.

Or something like a Timid/Bold Mewtwo with max Speed and Def EVs, CM, TWave, Psychic, and Recover.


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

I do everything really, i'll go from slow and annoying to max attack to slow defensive toxic wins all in the same fight. Crobat + confuse ray + toxic + fly > Ttar, when you see it coming in the rematch, i'll just use Charizard and focus blast .


(oh and my emp is special sweeper too, max SPatt and DEF EVs, i give him quick claw for extra stress on the foe)


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 17, 2010)

Here is my advice to you people

Stone Edge is the worst move in the game


----------



## Shiron (Feb 17, 2010)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Here is my advice to you people
> 
> Stone Edge is the worst move in the game


No. Rock Slide is. Significantly weaker than Stone Edge, but yet will still probably miss when it counts.  Rock really needs something more equivalent to Ice Beam (but physical, of course).


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 17, 2010)

But Stone Edge always misses

Except when you're on the receiving end. Where it will always hit. And crit


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

I still firmly believe they made a mistake with turning ancientpower to a special move.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> I do everything, i'll go from slow and annoying to max attack to slow defensive toxic wins all in the same fight. Crobat + confuse ray + toxic + fly > Ttar, when you see it coming in the rematch, i'll just use Charizard and focus blast .



Yeah same here. My current team has an Expert Belt coverage special sweeper, a physically based mixed sweeper / Focus Sash Mirror Coater, a specially based mixed sweeper / Focus Sash Counterer, a Toxic + Protect + Recover + Leftovers + Pressure stall wall / annoyer, a Brightpowder + Double Team + Recover + Psycho Shift staller / annoyer, and a Calm Mind sweeper / Recover + Psycho Shift staller. I hate having a team of Pokemon that are too similar 

Tyranitar is awesome in almost any case. The 50% Sp.Def boost the Sandstorm gives it makes it practically Uber  Sometimes even Mewtwo can't OHKO it with Aura Sphere cause of it lol.


*Spoiler*: _A famous set of Tyranitar's that Smogon lists is_ 



Adamant
@ Leftovers
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Crunch
~Stone Edge
~Fire Punch / Earthquake




I figured it didn't need all that Atk thanks to Dragon Dance, so I altered it a bit to make it more durable.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Adamant
@ Leftovers / Chople Berry
112 HP / 148 Def / 248 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Crunch
~Stone Edge
~Fire Punch / Earthquake




Then you can also take Tyranitar in the complete opposite direction 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Adamant
@ Leftovers / Chople Berry
252 HP / 60 Atk / 56 Def / 140 SpD
~Curse
~Payback
~Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rest
~Earthquake / Fire Punch / Sleep Talk






> (oh and my emp is special sweeper too, max SPatt and DEF EVs, i give him quick claw for extra stress on the foe)



Your Empoleon can probably beat mine. I have no idea what EVs it has. Yours can easily take people by surprise. Perfect for competitive battles.


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

My ttar is a CB-ttar, crunch quake avalance rockslide, Max att and def EVs, he can take enough punishment from almost everything since due to sandstorm both of his defs are nearly tank levels, sometimes i'll even give it life orb if i'm using another CBer in the team and he doesn't do all that worse with it.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

When I saw Avalanche, I figured you were maxing Def EVs  I think that's the first Avalanche Ttar I've ever seen 

Life Orb has its advantages as well. I wanna try a Bulk Up/Swords Dance + Drain Punch combo with Life Orb.


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 17, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> When I saw Avalanche, I figured you were maxing Def EVs  I think that's the first Avalanche Ttar I've ever seen
> 
> Life Orb has its advantages as well. I wanna try a Bulk Up/Swords Dance + Drain Punch combo with Life Orb.



Yep, like i said, i'm quite original, it's more fun that way. 


I adore Swords dance, my max att Rypherior has it, if i manage to set it up well in my trick room team i don't need any more power. I just give him brightpowder lol.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Yep, like i said, i'm quite original, it's more fun that way.
> 
> 
> I adore Swords dance, my max att Rypherior has it, if i manage to set it up well in my trick room team i don't need any more power. I just give him brightpowder lol.



Surprise surprise for Dragon types going for an Earthquake KO only to get covered with mounds of snow  Best part about unique sets is they rarely have counters, especially with people who stick to standard sets 

Yeah, Swords Dance is on my top 10 favorite moves list for sure. My Lucario does well with it in the Fight Area, even though I didn't EV train it. I guess that's because of ExtremeSpeed lol. This is my Fight Area team.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Alakazam Lv100 - Synchronize
@ Choice Band
----
HP: 244
Atk: 152
Def: 135
SpA: 342
SpD: 204
Spe: 279
----
~Calm Mind
~Shadow Ball
~Psychic
~Trick

Wobbuffet Lv100 - Shadow Tag
@ Leftovers
----
HP: 510
Atk: 81
Def: 193
SpA: 90
SpD: 232
Spe: 94
----
~Mirror Coat
~Safeguard
~Encore
~Counter

Lucario Lv100 - Steadfast
@ Lax Incense
----
HP: 276
Atk: 299
Def: 179
SpA: 282
SpD: 142
Spe: 204
----
~Swords Dance
~Dark Pulse
~Close Combat
~ExtremeSpeed

If the opponent opens up with Reflect, Light Screen, any weather move, any stat boosting move, or something like that, Alakazam punishes them hard. If they use Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, or some other status move, Alakazam's Synchronize punishes them, then I switch to Wobbuffet and use Safeguard, then switch to Lucario and have it Swords Dance before the Safeguard dies. If the opponent uses any Rock, Bug, or other move that's not very affective to Lucario, I switch to him. If the opponent uses Sand-Attack, I keep switching till they start to struggle. If the opponent uses Cotton Spore or Scary Face, I switch to Lucario, since he doesn't care about Speed drops thanks to ExtremeSpeed


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 18, 2010)

I am partial to the special sweeper lucario. I bred vacuum wave into it which is my main wevile counter .


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

I still have yet to see Vacuum Wave in the game D:

Let me try to guess... Vacuum Wave, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, and Aura Sphere/Psychic?


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 18, 2010)

I got it from hitmonchan. 


Not quite, Vwave, psychic, flash cannon, dark pulse.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

Damn, I was one off. I didn't even know it could Flash Cannon. STABulicious 

Hitmonchan eh? Haven't trained on in D/P yet. I gotta look into that.


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Feb 18, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> Yup, for quite a while. I love that penguin.  Agility + Petaya Berry = awesome.



Thought it'd be almost as nice as a special wall TBH


----------



## South of Hell (Feb 18, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> I got it from hitmonchan.
> 
> 
> Not quite, Vwave, psychic, flash cannon, dark pulse.



Not a fan of Flash Cannon; only SE against Rock which Aura Sphere can take out along with other types for even more base damage. And I would put Flash Cannon over Dark Pulse because Ghosts/Psychics are so frail that they will still get OHKO'd by it.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 18, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Surprise surprise for Dragon types going for an Earthquake KO only to get covered with mounds of snow  Best part about unique sets is they rarely have counters, especially with people who stick to standard sets
> 
> Yeah, Swords Dance is on my top 10 favorite moves list for sure. My Lucario does well with it in the Fight Area, even though I didn't EV train it. I guess that's because of ExtremeSpeed lol. This is my Fight Area team.
> 
> ...



Choice Band Alakazam?

What the _fuck_?


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 18, 2010)

South of Hell said:


> Not a fan of Flash Cannon; only SE against Rock which Aura Sphere can take out along with other types for even more base damage. And I would put Flash Cannon over Dark Pulse because Ghosts/Psychics are so frail that they will still get OHKO'd by it.



It's also SE against Ice. I mainly put it in so i'll have a STAB move that's not fighting, true, if i didn't have vacuum wave i'd use aura sphere over it but since i do having 2 fighting moves seemed unwise.


----------



## South of Hell (Feb 18, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> It's also SE against Ice. I mainly put it in so i'll have a STAB move that's not fighting, true, if i didn't have vacuum wave i'd use aura sphere over it but since i do having 2 fighting moves seemed unwise.



Fighting covers Ice aswell and still does 2x to Water Ice which Cannon would only neutral... =P

But yeah, Dark only SE's Ghost and Psychic which are too frail to survive STAB'd Flash Cannon anyways...


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2010)

Why does everyone run scarf tyranitar now, and spam pursuit. God damn.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Choice Band Alakazam?
> 
> What the _fuck_?



It uses a Scarf now. I didn't have one at the time 

Still beat the Tower Tycoon with it


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 18, 2010)

You do realize that Choice Band increases physical attacks by 50%, not special attacks. Unless you got confused with Specs


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

Yeah I know. The Choice Item wasn't for Alakazam to use anyway. That's why I went with Choice Scarf, so I could Trick it onto the opponent without boosting anything dangerous.

Back then, Choice Band was all I had to make due with


----------



## Innocence (Feb 18, 2010)

im open for suggestions for my electric team, i feel like i have a filler pokemon somewhere in the mix that doesnt work well.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Zapdos@Leftovers
Timid/Pressure
~agility
~batonpass
~substitute
~batonpass

Electivire@Lifeorb
Adamant/Motordrive
~crosschop
~EQ
~icepunch
~thunderpunch

Rotom-W@Damprock
Modest/Levitate
~thunder
~hydropump
~raindance
~shadowball

Raikou@Choicespecs
Hasty/Pressure
~thunder 
~thunderbolt
~shadowball
~extrasensory

Electrode@Focussash
Jolly/Static
~explosion
~mirrorcoat
~protect
~torment

Jolteon@Damprock
Modest/Voltabsorb
~protect
~raindance
~thunder
~wish





for some reason electivire doesnt pack a mean punch as i thought he would, so i might replace him


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

Did you see my reply to that post in the convo thread, Innocence?


----------



## Innocence (Feb 18, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Did you see my reply to that post in the convo thread, Innocence?


yes i did


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2010)

Innocence said:


> yes i did



Ok. Just making sure


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Feb 18, 2010)

Same as Innocence, except for my Grass Team, will take all suggestions


*Spoiler*: __ 



Roserade/Timid/????????
Focus Sash
Weather Ball
Sunny Day
Energy Ball
Sleep Powder

Shiftry@ Modest/ Chlorophyll
@Choice Specs
Dark Pulse
Extrasensory
Hp Ice
Energy Ball

Torterra@ Impish
Yache Berry
Earthquake
Wood Hammer
Synthesis
Outrage/Stone Edge

Tangrowth/Chlorophyll Impish
Leftovers
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Power Whip
Shock Wave (for lulz and moar coverage)

Venusaur Life Orb/Heat Rock
Calm
Sunny Day
Synthesis/Solarbeam
Sludge Bomb
Outrage/Earthquake

Exeggutor Chlorophyll Modest Heat rock/????
Sunny Day
Grass Knot
Sleep Powder
HP Fire/Psychic


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2010)

Pringer Lagann said:


> Same as Innocence, except for my Grass Team, will take all suggestions
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Venesaur/Exeggutor can be replaced with a celebi or brellom. Both are pretty solid grass types


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 18, 2010)

Innocence said:


> im open for suggestions for my electric team, i feel like i have a filler pokemon somewhere in the mix that doesnt work well.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


How about a bulky Lanturn? I see too much sweeping, also, i assume the second battonpass on Zapdos was meant to be protect?


----------



## delirium (Feb 18, 2010)

Innocence said:


> im open for suggestions for my electric team, i feel like i have a filler pokemon somewhere in the mix that doesnt work well.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Your teams is full of holes. I could write a huge page picking on all the little things I see but I'll keep it down to short things that can have immediate results.

First, Choice items are generally a bad idea on mono teams. They force your pokemon to be a hit and run type and in a mono type team, you're usually not going to have very many switches to super effective hits (since they all have the same typing).

Second, Electivire is the only true physical attacker that Electric types have and is therefor a must on every Electric team. If you didn't then Blissey and Tyranitar makes you their bitch. (I have a work around to that though )

Third, not enough HP Grass/Ice. You HAVE to be weary of ground counters. Sure you have rain going with Thunder at 100% accuracy, but it's power is wasted if you can't use it.



Pringer Lagann said:


> Same as Innocence, except for my Grass Team, will take all suggestions
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'd have to use the team to really see what it needs (if anything), but on paper the only thing I'd change is making Torterra into a Rock Polish sweeper since it's holding Yache. A suicide sweeper is pretty nice on mono teams, actually. Since most of your pokemon have the same weaknesses, you can potentially eliminate all your opponent's pokemon who hold these moves at just the cost of one pokemon giving you a one, two, maybe even three pokemon lead. That's not a bad trade off. You can go from there and set up Sunny Day and sweep with Exeggutor.


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Feb 18, 2010)

delirium said:


> I'd have to use the team to really see what it needs (if anything), but on paper the only thing I'd change is making Torterra into a Rock Polish sweeper since it's holding Yache. A suicide sweeper is pretty nice on mono teams, actually. Since most of your pokemon have the same weaknesses, you can potentially eliminate all your opponent's pokemon who hold these moves at just the cost of one pokemon giving you a one, two, maybe even three pokemon lead. That's not a bad trade off. You can go from there and set up Sunny Day and sweep with Exeggutor.



lol Rock polish was the first thing that came into mind, good to see that my trend of having the former idea be the better one hasn't ended. 

Not one for An Heroics when it comes to poke but it's something I can't ignore, I'll tweak the team around some more


----------



## Sen (Feb 20, 2010)

So I have a question, is it redundant when making a team if I included both Tyranitar and Hippowdon on the same team?  Would it be better to place some kind of opposite pokemon instead?


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 20, 2010)

Tyranitar is better than Hippowdon in most cases, since it gets a 50% Sp.Def boost from the Sandstorm, unless there's something needed that Tyranitar can't provide  And if you fear Fighting moves might be a problem 

It doesn't hurt to have both if they each serve a different role. If one gets KO'd and the weather changes, surprise surprise for the opponent


----------



## Sen (Feb 20, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Tyranitar is better than Hippowdon in most cases, since it gets a 50% Sp.Def boost from the Sandstorm, unless there's something needed that Tyranitar can't provide  And if you fear Fighting moves might be a problem
> 
> It doesn't hurt to have both if they each serve a different role. If one gets KO'd and the weather changes, surprise surprise for the opponent



You mean Tyranitar is weak to fighting moves but not Hippowdon?  I was thinking of Hippowdon because I saw this battle where it was able to use Roar and then kill most of the opponents that way 

And yeah   That would be nice, but I'm afraid they'd have something that would be strong against that type in general.


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 20, 2010)

Sen said:


> You mean Tyranitar is weak to fighting moves but not Hippowdon?  I was thinking of Hippowdon because I saw this battle where it was able to use Roar and then kill most of the opponents that way
> 
> And yeah   That would be nice, but I'm afraid they'd have something that would be strong against that type in general.



Ttar has quadruple weakness, Hippo is just normal.


----------



## Sen (Feb 20, 2010)

Hmm, so if I can prevent it from being attacked by something it's weak against then it's okay.

lol the reason I'm thinking of switching is because I had a battle against a flying-fighting type (I think, or fighting-fire) and it pretty much got killed from one move


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 20, 2010)

If it was starraptor, it's flying normal but it can do fighting moves too. You need to be aware what attacks your foes can do, not only what type they are.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 20, 2010)

Sometimes I give Tyranitar Chople Berry instead of Leftovers.

It works wonders for setting up DD


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 20, 2010)

I give my gros sitrus berries, he's so tough and strong so the life really matters. I've had people disconnect on me when they see the berry, after finally eating away half his life lol.


----------



## Sen (Feb 20, 2010)

I've never thought to use berries really 

And it was actually Blaziken and I think it used Sky Attack or something, or Close Combat.  And I know, I'm bad at predicting opponents moves ;__;


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 20, 2010)

Blaziken is so damn slow though that you should have quaked it before it did anything after one DD.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm guessing Sitrus Berry works best on Lv50 Pokemon. At Lv100, it's not a big difference lol.

Blaziken is kinda hard to work with. I'm training one in my Diamond in about a week and the set I came up with was this. (IVs are all 31 but SpA. Lucky me )

Jolly
@ Salac Berry
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Swords Dance
~Endure
~Reversal
~Blaze Kick / Flare Blitz

After Swords Dance and Endure + Salac Berry, and after Blaze Kicks in, the stats and power for Blaziken's moves become:

Atk: 678
Spe: 426
Blaze Kick = 190 including STAB
Flare Blitz = 270 including STAB
Reversal = 300 including STAB

It's advisable not to go with Flare Blitz since you'll KO Blaziken since it would only have I HP left. Blaze Kick and Reversal pack more than enough punch with 678 Atk backing it


----------



## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Blaziken is so damn slow though that you should have quaked it before it did anything after one DD.



lol it was fast enough to kill mine after my attack failed to kill it  



Jυstin said:


> I'm guessing Sitrus Berry works best on Lv50 Pokemon. At Lv100, it's not a big difference lol.
> 
> Blaziken is kinda hard to work with. I'm training one in my Diamond in about a week and the set I came up with was this. (IVs are all 31 but SpA. Lucky me )
> 
> ...



Actually that was my enemy's pokemon that destroyed mine, I've never used it myself.  Also so confusing with all the stats   I wonder how so many people seem to understand these things.  

Reversal definitely seems like the best move though, does that have a lash back though like with flare blitz?


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 21, 2010)

Reversal does more damage the less life you have, useless at full, epic at 1 HP. 


These stats are quite simple really, there's a simple equation that solves how much damage attacks do in this game.


----------



## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

I've seen that joke (?) equation thing before, not sure if it was serious though   But yeah, crazy how people can calculate it all so well to me.  I guess I'm used to playing more by simply on level and need to learn how to use things better.  

Also seems like Reversal would only be good if you used endure like Justin pointed out then.  Is it really good though since then you use it on the assumption it would need to almost die first?


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 21, 2010)

I suppose my being a computer science major has me not quite impressed by it or something lol.


You make it sure you won't die but only have low Hp by using moves like endure or giving it items like focus sash.


----------



## Castiel (Feb 21, 2010)

interesting read 

never really put any thought into strategy or natures before


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## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> I suppose my being a computer science major has me not quite impressed by it or something lol.
> 
> You make it sure you won't die but only have low Hp by using moves like endure or giving it items like focus sash.



 I suppose, that would be easier too I guess then.

But I mean after it attacks, wouldn't it be stuck with only 1 HP anyway?  Can you use that attack while it is still at 1 HP more than once then?



Kilowog said:


> interesting read
> 
> never really put any thought into strategy or natures before



Either did I, that's why I'm so bad at competitive battling since I never thought to ev train or think about these things before D:  Do you battle for fun like this then?


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 21, 2010)

> But I mean after it attacks, wouldn't it be stuck with only 1 HP anyway? Can you use that attack while it is still at 1 HP more than once then?


Yep, has no recoil or anything, the only thing you fear is quick attack moves.


----------



## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

So you could theoretically take out several pokemon at 1 HP as long as there was no fast attacking one?   Quite awesome, will need to consider those kinds of moves more.


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## Dreikoo (Feb 21, 2010)

It's the same for pokemon with dragon dance/swords dance and focus sash really. Back in the day whole teams go down to a garchomp with swords dance like nothing.


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## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

Back in the day?  Doesn't that still happen?  

Also that is one thing that has always confused me, if you use a focus anything, you're only allowed to use one attack and the same one your entire thing?


----------



## Death-kun (Feb 21, 2010)

Sen said:


> Back in the day?  Doesn't that still happen?
> 
> Also that is one thing that has always confused me, if you use a focus anything, you're only allowed to use one attack and the same one your entire thing?



Well I'm assuming by back in the day he means when Garchomp was still in the OU tier. It was an absolute monster back then. This is what teams sometimes looked like, and I'm not even joking:

Garchomp
Garchomp counter
Garchomp counter counter
Garchomp counter counter counter
etc.

Like, entire teams would revolve around Garchomp and counters to Garchomp and counters to Garcomp's counters and counters to those counters.  Garchomp was eventually banned from OU and banished to the Uber tier.

Oh, and that's for Choice items. Those restrict you to one move until you switch. Focus Sash leaves you at 1 HP if you're hit with an attack at 100% HP that would've otherwise OHKO'd you. It's like a free Endure, considering you're at full health when it happens. Which is why many leads use it, as there's no chance for entry hazards like Stealth Rock to ruin it since it's the first one out in battle.


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Feb 21, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> It's the same for pokemon with dragon dance/swords dance and focus sash really. Back in the day whole teams go down to a garchomp with swords dance like nothing.



Don't make my hair go the Ragna route


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 21, 2010)

Sen said:


> lActually that was my enemy's pokemon that destroyed mine, I've never used it myself.  Also so confusing with all the stats   I wonder how so many people seem to understand these things.
> 
> Reversal definitely seems like the best move though, does that have a lash back though like with flare blitz?



Yeah I found out after I posted it  If you're using a Dragon Dancing Tyranitar, and are worried about it getting OHKO'd by a Fighting attack while it's trying to set up, give it a Chople Berry to cut the damage in half. For the EVs, you want Tyranitar's Speed at least 220 or higher so that Dragon Dance can boost it by at least 110 each time. The rest of the EVs should go into Def and HP. It really doesn't need any Attack investment, with its already monstrous base Atk and Dragon Dance, though you could invest it up to 350. It reaches 334 if it's Adamant and no Atk EVs. Its Sp.Def also needs no EVs since Sandstorm boosts it by 50%, making it much higher than its Def. With Chople Berry and HP and Def EV investment, it'll never really have to worry about getting OHKO'd while setting up Dragon Dance. Once you get in that one Dragon Dance, The opponent is pretty much screwed, especially if they're weak to any offensive moves your Tyranitar has. 334 Atk becomes 503, and 350 Atk becomes 575 after one Dragon Dance 

And Reversal has no recoil damage like Flare Blitz does. It's just recommended that its HP be 10% or lower, otherwise its power is exceptionally low D:


----------



## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> Well I'm assuming by back in the day he means when Garchomp was still in the OU tier. It was an absolute monster back then. This is what teams sometimes looked like, and I'm not even joking:
> 
> Garchomp
> Garchomp counter
> ...



Wow   I heard that it was moved to the Uber tier, I guess that makes sense when it overwhelmed the OU level.  

Until you switch pokemon?  So then you can only use the one attack and you must switch?  Doesn't that ruin most strategies with it though?  



Jυstin said:


> Yeah I found out after I posted it  If you're using a Dragon Dancing Tyranitar, and are worried about it getting OHKO'd by a Fighting attack while it's trying to set up, give it a Chople Berry to cut the damage in half. For the EVs, you want Tyranitar's Speed at least 220 or higher so that Dragon Dance can boost it by at least 110 each time. The rest of the EVs should go into Def and HP. It really doesn't need any Attack investment, with its already monstrous base Atk and Dragon Dance, though you could invest it up to 350. It reaches 334 if it's Adamant and no Atk EVs. Its Sp.Def also needs no EVs since Sandstorm boosts it by 50%, making it much higher than its Def. With Chople Berry and HP and Def EV investment, it'll never really have to worry about getting OHKO'd while setting up Dragon Dance. Once you get in that one Dragon Dance, The opponent is pretty much screwed, especially if they're weak to any offensive moves your Tyranitar has. 334 Atk becomes 503, and 350 Atk becomes 575 after one Dragon Dance
> 
> And Reversal has no recoil damage like Flare Blitz does. It's just recommended that its HP be 10% or lower, otherwise its power is exceptionally low D:



Surprising, I usually would put Evs into attack since that is the main stat I'd want to boost, but would make more sense to try some other things.  All of my pokemon were super slow   Since I hadn't really done much with speed, didn't realize how useful it could be.  

That's not too bad to have then since it's like an emergency move if you will die.  If you use endure in the beginning of the battle, then it would save you at any point right?


----------



## Death-kun (Feb 21, 2010)

Sen said:


> Wow   I heard that it was moved to the Uber tier, I guess that makes sense when it overwhelmed the OU level.
> 
> Until you switch pokemon?  So then you can only use the one attack and you must switch?  Doesn't that ruin most strategies with it though?



Pretty much. Garchomp was claimed and proven to be much too overpowered, so it was kicked to Ubers. I heard it's actually good in there as well, and isn't overwhelmed by the legendaries. It even outruns Rayquaza. I swear, they made Garchomp have base 102 Speed just to mock Rayquaza's base 100 speed. 

Well, you can't select any other moves. Once you use that move, you either have to keep using it or switch. Then when you switch back in, you can choose a different move to use. The use of Choice items is either to hit ridiculously hard or outrun things that a Pokemon wouldn't normally be able to outrun but could definitely beat if it could.


----------



## Sen (Feb 21, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> Pretty much. Garchomp was claimed and proven to be much too overpowered, so it was kicked to Ubers. I heard it's actually good in there as well, and isn't overwhelmed by the legendaries. It even outruns Rayquaza. I swear, they made Garchomp have base 102 Speed just to mock Rayquaza's base 100 speed.
> 
> Well, you can't select any other moves. Once you use that move, you either have to keep using it or switch. Then when you switch back in, you can choose a different move to use. The use of Choice items is either to hit ridiculously hard or outrun things that a Pokemon wouldn't normally be able to outrun but could definitely beat if it could.



Wow, that's pretty good then   As long as it's still useful there, probably better being slightly normal there instead of too powerful in another tier when everyone would be using it.  

So when you switch back in, then you get one move still for that time until you switch out again?  Not sure if I should use one


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 21, 2010)

Death-kun said:


> Pretty much. Garchomp was claimed and proven to be much too overpowered, so it was kicked to Ubers. I heard it's actually good in there as well, and isn't overwhelmed by the legendaries. It even outruns Rayquaza. I swear, they made Garchomp have base 102 Speed just to mock Rayquaza's base 100 speed.
> 
> Well, you can't select any other moves. Once you use that move, you either have to keep using it or switch. Then when you switch back in, you can choose a different move to use. The use of Choice items is either to hit ridiculously hard or outrun things that a Pokemon wouldn't normally be able to outrun but could definitely beat if it could.



Of course that was before the quintessential red Steel/Bug was given his Christmas present with Platinum. Garchomp is still insanely strong but is less of a threat where Scizor doesn't care about his insane speed


----------



## Dreikoo (Feb 22, 2010)

Pringer Lagann said:


> Don't make my hair go the Ragna route



You do realize there should be a themesong for whenever chomp uses swords dance, right? chomp chompchompchomp chooomp damashii tatakau koto ni natteru yoouni!





Sen said:


> Wow, that's pretty good then   As long as it's still useful there, probably better being slightly normal there instead of too powerful in another tier when everyone would be using it.
> 
> So when you switch back in, then you get one move still for that time until you switch out again?  Not sure if I should use one



Look, if you have something that will die in one hit if it doesn't kill in one hit, you want choice items on it. Simple as that.


Now, depending on the type of attacks it has or on it's speed, you'll be using a different item. My porygon-z for example has max sp att and the good ability, with it i can kill anything that doesn't resist normal moves, i am safe in that knowledge, when i see a gyarados pop up i don't think "damn...this thing again"...i think "woot, time for porygon-z". Now, this would be risky since his speed is mediocre at best...but with a choice scarf it'll always go first and since his ability buffs only same type moves it's gonna be the most efficient choice to just use the same move over and over regardless of other factors. With the ability, every attack which hits for normal does as much as a SE hit would do basically.


So, for strategies simmilar to this choice items rock. Try to develop some of them and you'll see the benefits soon enough.


----------



## Sen (Feb 22, 2010)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Of course that was before the quintessential red Steel/Bug was given his Christmas present with Platinum. Garchomp is still insanely strong but is less of a threat where Scizor doesn't care about his insane speed



I see, so Scizor was a good counter then?  



Dreikoo said:


> Look, if you have something that will die in one hit if it doesn't kill in one hit, you want choice items on it. Simple as that.
> 
> 
> Now, depending on the type of attacks it has or on it's speed, you'll be using a different item. My porygon-z for example has max sp att and the good ability, with it i can kill anything that doesn't resist normal moves, i am safe in that knowledge, when i see a gyarados pop up i don't think "damn...this thing again"...i think "woot, time for porygon-z". Now, this would be risky since his speed is mediocre at best...but with a choice scarf it'll always go first and since his ability buffs only same type moves it's gonna be the most efficient choice to just use the same move over and over regardless of other factors. With the ability, every attack which hits for normal does as much as a SE hit would do basically.
> ...



I see, sounds pretty powerful if I can get a pokemon like that.  

And yeah, I will try it then   I don't know, just seems scary too if you are stuck with one move.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 22, 2010)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Of course that was before the quintessential red Steel/Bug was given his Christmas present with Platinum. Garchomp is still insanely strong but is less of a threat where Scizor doesn't care about his insane speed



Scizor is not even near Garchomp. There are so many things that laugh at anything scizor throws at it that there's really no excuse to not have one on your team. Being swept by scizor is pretty bad. 

Rotom, Gyrados, Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicune, Zapdos 

They're not too hard to fit on your team


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 22, 2010)

~M~ said:


> Scizor is not even near Garchomp. There are so many things that laugh at anything scizor throws at it that there's really no excuse to not have one on your team. Being swept by scizor is pretty bad.
> 
> Rotom, Gyrados, Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicune, Zapdos
> 
> They're not too hard to fit on your team



lol wut

Look at the Shoddy usages for Pokemon. Scizor is the only thing that even has a chance of approaching Garchomp Prime's usage

also lol

Garchomp before was basically a SD then sweep the whole team. Not with Scizor there who can take up to 50% hp off the original Yachechomp with a single Bullet Punch. The most commonly used Chomp now is the ScarfChomp which is mainly used as a revenger


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 22, 2010)

It's just as used but their power levels aren't nearly the same. Considering all you have to do is carry rotom to stop any scizor in it's tracks they're different.



> Garchomp before was basically a SD then sweep the whole team. Not with Scizor there who can take up to 50% hp off the original Yachechomp with a single Bullet Punch. The most commonly used Chomp now is the ScarfChomp which is mainly used as a revenger


Garchomp could ohko back with any fire move, 50% isn't a crushing blow of defeat


----------



## Chemistry (Feb 22, 2010)

Sen said:


> I don't know, just seems scary too if you are stuck with one move.



That's what'cha gotta live with for such a big benefit. Switching out cancels the move lock though.


----------



## delirium (Feb 22, 2010)

lol garchomp. weakest "uber".


----------



## Sen (Feb 22, 2010)

Garchomp is the weakest there?



Chemistry said:


> That's what'cha gotta live with for such a big benefit. Switching out cancels the move lock though.



True, guess no risk, no reward   Well I plan to try it with at least one of them, just need to pick which one it would be the best with.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 22, 2010)

~M~ said:


> It's just as used but their power levels aren't nearly the same. Considering all you have to do is carry rotom to stop any scizor in it's tracks they're different.
> 
> Garchomp could ohko back with any fire move, 50% isn't a crushing blow of defeat



Point missed

I'm really not going to bother with you if you completely missed the point of my point


----------



## Shiron (Feb 22, 2010)

Sen said:


> Garchomp is the weakest there?


Nah. Deoxys-D probably is, which is why I'm eager to hopefully see it getting tested sometime soon. It really is Uxie+a few more support options.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 27, 2010)

^ And 66 more defensive points


----------



## Shiron (Feb 27, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> ^ And 66 more defensive points


60 more (but only 30 on either side). However, Uxie has much more HP (Deoxys has base 50; Uxie has base 75). Because of that, Deoxys-D works out to be only like a few more (like, somewhere around 1-3% or something) percent bulky than Uxie is. Uxie's also faster than it (Deoxys is base 90; Uxie is base 95). All Deoxys has on Uxie is Recover+a few more support options, really. As a result, especially with it's "slow" speed for a lead in OU (well, when compared to things like Azelf, anyway), I wouldn't be surprised if it wouldn't wind up being broken there.


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 27, 2010)

I don't mean more base points. I mean actual defensive points. Deoxys-D's max defensive points are 66 higher than Uxie's each (and my God do they make a difference ). The lower HP helps Uxie to catch up a bit, but the individual defensive stats themselves prevent more HP% loss (increasing Def by 50 points against an Earthquake attack will result in less damage % taken then increasing HP by 50 points), while the HP is important because increasing Def helps a lot against physical attacks, while nothing against special attacks, while increasing HP helps moderately against both physical and special.

Move-wise, I don't think Uxie has access to Agility either, which makes a lot of Deoxys-D sets an instant threat with Taunt and Recover. Plus, Uxie's only 11 points higher in speed. Faster than Deoxys-D yes, but compared to other competition, that 11 point difference doesn't mean much since there is a very small amount of Pokemon whose speed lie between those lines.


----------



## Shiron (Feb 27, 2010)

My current feelings on Deoxys-D pretty much come from the discussion about it on Smogon.  really sums up my feelings on it. The only thing that really does concern me about it is it's movepool, but I think it will turn out alright:


			
				eric the espeon said:
			
		

> Exact numbers for comparing the defensiveness of the bulky Psychics:
> 
> Deoxys-D
> Max/Max+ special defensiveness: 139840
> ...


----------



## Jυstin (Feb 27, 2010)

This stood out for me:



> Deoxys-D
> Optimal spread physical defensiveness: 120384
> Optimal spread special defensiveness: 127072
> 
> ...



I'm curious as to how they concluded that both spread better with Sp.Def than Def, since each of their respective defensive stats are identical, allowing them to be spread the same way. In fact, Calm Mind allows them both to invest more into Def since their Sp.Def would get a significant boost.

They are right though. Deoxys-D would be easy to set up on if it used Psychic. Mine runs Taunt, Toxic, Protect, and Recover, along with Leftovers to make a good Pressure stallwall / team breaker. Protect aids Pressure PP usage and gives an extra turn for Leftovers recovery and Toxic damage. It's not a godly unstoppable set, but it works great against opponents trying to set up. It only has a problem with faster Taunters and immune Pokemon, but that's why I said it's not godly.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Mar 1, 2010)

Anyone have a clue how to get Quilfish self-destruct. Trying to start on a rain dance team and having difficulties on how to get that move on him...


----------



## Jυstin (Mar 1, 2010)

Utopia Realm said:


> Anyone have a clue how to get Quilfish self-destruct. Trying to start on a rain dance team and having difficulties on how to get that move on him...



Explosion is a TM. What's complicated is how to get it, unless you have an AR 

Trying to find out how Mewtwo learns Selfdestruct is even more confusing


----------



## Utopia Realm (Mar 1, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Explosion is a TM. What's complicated is how to get it, unless you have an AR
> 
> Trying to find out how Mewtwo learns Selfdestruct is even more confusing



What I'm thinking is how SNorlax learns Self-destruct too?

I guess get Mewtwo, Snorlax, Quilfish, etc. from FireRed/LeafGreen and teach that move from the move tutor in that game then crosss over into DPPt and breed the pokemon with its opposite gender to re-learn the move with a decent nature.

I'm guessing that's how you do it...


----------



## Jυstin (Mar 1, 2010)

Utopia Realm said:


> What I'm thinking is how SNorlax learns Self-destruct too?
> 
> I guess get Mewtwo, Snorlax, Quilfish, etc. from FireRed/LeafGreen and teach that move from the move tutor in that game then crosss over into DPPt and breed the pokemon with its opposite gender to re-learn the move with a decent nature.
> 
> I'm guessing that's how you do it...



Mewtwo and Snorlax... yeah I think that's right. See I can hack Pokemon with Pokesav, but I don't wanna hack a Mewtwo with a legitimate Selfdestruct without making sure it's from the right region. As for Snorlax, I was gonna just give it Giga Impact instead, though the fact that Selfdestruct halves the opponent's Def while it hits makes it WAY better.

As for Qwilfish, teaching it Explosion is easier. Explosion is TM64, and you get it from the Veilstone Casino. I hear you can just cash it for coins, but I also hear you have to play a special game for it. All I know 100% is that it's there


----------



## Shiron (Mar 1, 2010)

Jυstin said:


> Explosion is a TM. What's complicated is how to get it, unless you have an AR
> 
> Trying to find out how Mewtwo learns Selfdestruct is even more confusing


Mewtwo (and most likely some of these other Pokemon--don't really have time to check right now) gets Selfdestruct from the Move Tutor for it in Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness. So, to get it, you have to transfer the one from FR or LG over to XD, teach it the move, and then send it back.


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Mar 1, 2010)

What are the ideal things to consider in a team when adding Mismagius as a perish trapper


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## -ThanatosX- (Mar 11, 2010)

So guys, I've never tried competitive battling thus my knowledge of it is pretty shitty. When I have a team of OU's and BL's is a Nidoking, which is UU, clearly out of place? Or can it still cope pretty well with his foes that are OU or BL?


----------



## Tools (Mar 13, 2010)

I need help with building a Rain Dance team. I've never built one before and here's what I got in a quickie:
-Lead Damp Rock Bronzong
-Sword Dance Kabutops
-Sword Dance Quilfish
-Substitute/Baton Pass Zapdos
-Rain Dance Ludicolo
-Rain Dance Kingdra


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## AlphabetSoup (Mar 17, 2010)

> So guys, I've never tried competitive battling thus my knowledge of it is pretty shitty. When I have a team of OU's and BL's is a Nidoking, which is UU, clearly out of place? Or can it still cope pretty well with his foes that are OU or BL?



Nidoking doesn't really work well in OU because ground type attacks are too common (looking at you earthquale). Nidoking also doesn't have the greatest of movepools. STAB EQ is good but poison attacks are almost worthless ( the only two decent poison moves that I can think of is toxic spikes and maybe toxic). It also has average stats overall so it cant handle pseudolegendaries like Salamence that well either.


----------



## Death-kun (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay, I'm totally going to update this now with stuff about IVs and EVs. I'm gonna add an IV and EV guide to the first post. It's definitely not mine though, so I take no credit for it.


----------



## -ThanatosX- (Apr 27, 2010)

Should a pokemon be evolved as quickly as possible or does it ultimately not matter when looking at the stats?

The most important IVs for a pokemon are the ones you're gonna EV train it in, right?


----------



## Shiron (Apr 27, 2010)

It doesn't matter when you evolve a Pokemon--that won't affect the stats at all in the end.

And yes, though it's of course a good idea to try to get the others (except perhaps the attacking stat you're not using), especially Speed, high too if possible.


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## -ThanatosX- (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Shiron


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## Dreikoo (Apr 27, 2010)

Tools said:


> I need help with building a Rain Dance team. I've never built one before and here's what I got in a quickie:
> -Lead Damp Rock Bronzong
> -Sword Dance Kabutops
> -Sword Dance Quilfish
> ...



Replace quilfish with something like a sucker punch croagunk and kingdra should be a DD/outrage/waterfall one.


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## -ThanatosX- (Apr 27, 2010)

These are the best Machokes I've caught after releasing 20 others or so, but I have trouble choosing which one to use. I'm training it to be a Rest-Talker Machamp with the following EV-spread: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe, if that's any help.

Could anyone help me out here? 

Machoke - #67 (Adamant)
HP: 20 - 22
Att: 30
Def: 9 - 11
SpA: 29 - 30
SpD: 27 - 28
Speed: 15 ? 16

Machoke - #67 (Adamant)
HP: 29 - 31
Att: 5 - 6
Def: 31
SpA: 9 - 11
SpD: 25 - 26
Speed: 26 ? 27

Machoke - #67 (Adamant)
HP: 7 - 8
Att: 27 - 28
Def: 31
SpA: 29 - 31
SpD: 20 - 22
Speed: 24 ? 25

Machoke - #67 (Adamant)
HP: 12 - 13
Att: 27 - 28
Def: 26 - 27
SpA: 31
SpD: 28 - 29
Speed: 15 - 16


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## Dreikoo (Apr 27, 2010)

I'd use the fourth. 


You should breed them though, otherwise you can't give him bullet punch.


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## Death-kun (May 19, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Replace quilfish with something like a sucker punch croagunk and kingdra should be a DD/outrage/waterfall one.



Someone doesn't know how many times I've sweeped with an SD Qwilfish in the rain.


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## Dani (May 29, 2010)

how many times youve swept* i think you mean


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## Nois (Jun 12, 2010)

he did, so what?


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## Dani (Jun 21, 2010)

hi you are an immature disgusting turd. i hope i never meet a piece of shit like you in real life because it will take everything i have not to kill them. you need to grow the fuck up and stop visiting a forum for a stupid cartoon anime bitch shit. maybe then you can amount to something better than one of the piece of shits who works at wal mart, has no friends and spends all of their free time posting on a forum full of idiots like yourself. you all are ugly friendless idiots i mean why do you have 5k posts thats absolutely ridiculous. what a fucking retard. have fun jacking off to hentai until youre 40 when youll fuck some ugly fat ass man ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
ps you all suck at pokemon im one of smogons best fuck you all ^_^ ps for your rain dance team i would definitely change zapdos set to a rain supporter with thunder/roost/rain dance/hp grass or something along those lines. your team also seems to lack rain supporters and 3 sweepers is definitely enough-- i would probably drop qwilfish or kabutops in favor of something like lead azelf which can get you off to a better start than bronzong as well as freeing up a moveset on bronzong (sr) where you can put something more useful such as light screen or hypnosis (assuming you are running sr/reflect/explosion/rain dance). hope i helped and good luck!!


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## Velocity (Jun 21, 2010)

Are you bipolar or something? You go from this...



Dani said:


> hi you are an immature disgusting turd. i hope i never meet a piece of shit like you in real life because it will take everything i have not to kill them. you need to grow the fuck up and stop visiting a forum for a stupid cartoon anime bitch shit. maybe then you can amount to something better than one of the piece of shits who works at wal mart, has no friends and spends all of their free time posting on a forum full of idiots like yourself. you all are ugly friendless idiots i mean why do you have 5k posts thats absolutely ridiculous. what a fucking retard. have fun jacking off to hentai until youre 40 when youll fuck some ugly fat ass man ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
> ps you all suck at pokemon im one of smogons best fuck you all



To this...



> ^_^ ps for your rain dance team i would definitely change zapdos set to a rain supporter with thunder/roost/rain dance/hp grass or something along those lines. your team also seems to lack rain supporters and 3 sweepers is definitely enough-- i would probably drop qwilfish or kabutops in favor of something like lead azelf which can get you off to a better start than bronzong as well as freeing up a moveset on bronzong (sr) where you can put something more useful such as light screen or hypnosis (assuming you are running sr/reflect/explosion/rain dance). hope i helped and good luck!!


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## Fran (Jul 25, 2010)

Smogon just announced that Salamence was promoted to Uber


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## Captain America (Jul 30, 2010)

Why is Salamence banned on Smogon now?

It's been a while since I played Pokemon and now Salamence is uber?


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## Shiron (Jul 31, 2010)

^


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## Champagne Supernova (Jul 31, 2010)

smogon are a bunch of retards

lol@anyone who uses their tier rules


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## Captain America (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm surprised Smogon hasn't banned Scizor yet...


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## Death-kun (Aug 17, 2010)

Because Scizor is really easy to counter if you know what you're doing.


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## Captain America (Aug 24, 2010)

For now, yes since people use Magnezone, Heatran, etc.

Still, banning Salamence was a little harsh.

It was the MixMence set (EQ, Fire Blast, Outrage, Draco Meteor) why Smogon banned Salamence...


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## Death-kun (Mar 15, 2011)

Hm, I think I might update the OP soon to correspond with Gen 5.


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## TeenRyu (May 4, 2011)

what do you guys think of my Fifth Gen Team? (For the Haxorus, im going to be breeding another Salamence and Garchomp) 


Working on my build I realize I really don't have much synergy, and Little Type Coverage. I'd like to keep my build similar, though I will try switching out Haxorus with another dragon, or if I can eevee trained: well here is the team: 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Blaze

Blaziken 
Level: 71 [Male] 
Bold Nature 
Held Item: Leftovers/None
*Move Set:* 
Focus Blast 
Sky Uppercut 
Blaze Kick 
Acrobatics 

--Stats-- 
HP: 210
Attack: 193
Defense: 147
Sp. Atk: 177
Sp. Def: 118
Speed: 149 
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Keen Eye

Braviary 
Level: 70 [Male] 
Serious Nature 
Held Item: Sharp Beak/various items 
*Move Set*
Fly 
Shadow Claw
Crush Claw
Sky Drop 

--Stats--
HP: 237
Attack: 210
Defense: 151 
Sp. Atk: 95
Sp. Def: 126
Speed: 135 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Rivalry 

Haxorus
Level 71 [Male] 
Sassy Nature 
Held Item: Dragon Fang/various others 
*Move Set*
Swords Dance
Outrage
Dragon Claw
Surf 

--Stats--
HP: 219
Attack: 261
Defense: 171
Sp. Atk: 113
Sp. Def: 133
Speed: 143 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Clear Body

Metagross
Level 73 
Naughty Nature 
Held Item: Adamant Orb/Steel plate 
*Move Set*
Psychic [Thinking of what to change for it] 
Meteor Mash
Psyshock 
Bullet Punch 

--Stats-- 
HP: 223
Attack: 273
Defense: 221
Sp. Atk: 173
Sp. Def: 133
Speed: 159 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Own Tempo 

Lilligant 
Level 65--currently training-- [Female] 
Lonely Nature
Held Item: Miracle Seed/various others 
*Move Set*
Toxic
Synthesis 
Petal Dance
Quiver Dance 

--Stats-- 
HP: 200
Attack: 121
Defense: 108
Sp. Atk: 177
Sp. Def: 133
Speed: 137 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability: Illusion 

Zoroark
Level 74 [Male] 
Bold Nature
Held Item: Bright Powder
*Move Set*
Nasty Plot
Flamethrower 
Focus Blast
Night Daze 

--Stats--
HP: 186
Attack: 181
Defense: 126
Sp. Atk: 202
Sp. Def: 103
Speed: 185

-----------------------------------------------------------------

So what should I do to get type Coverage, and work out the kinks of the party?


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## conorgenov (Aug 27, 2011)

I agree with justin in game battle all the way. luck and chance are two way streets, and taking it out seems to me like being a Stop Having Fun Guy. were never going to agree on this so let's agree to disagree. my strategy is using more dakka, if that fails I'm not using enough dakka. this strategy works in game (for gen 1-3 I haven't played D/P/PT) up until gen 5 near the end. the end game of gen 5 seems to actually need strategy for once. right now I'm training a pokemon that can swith abilities so I can what regigigas can do without slow start.


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## Eonflare (Oct 1, 2011)

TeenRyu said:


> what do you guys think of my Fifth Gen Team? (For the Haxorus, im going to be breeding another Salamence and Garchomp)
> 
> 
> Working on my build I realize I really don't have much synergy, and Little Type Coverage. I'd like to keep my build similar, though I will try switching out Haxorus with another dragon, or if I can eevee trained: well here is the team:
> ...



I thought that in Competitive battling, a general tip is that a Pokemon should never have more than one attacking move of the same type. That helps with type coverage.

With Metagross, why the adamant orb? doesn't that only work with dialga? I had a Metagross once, and I think I had a pretty good movepool with it (this was in Gen IV):

Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Thunderpunch
Agility

Meteor Mash is for a STAB attack which works well with Metagross' high 135 ATK stat and a total power of 150, the extra chance to raise atack helpful as well and a good enough accuracy

Earthquake is for general type coverage

Thunderpunch is for the bulky water types that might try to wall Meteor Mash, Meteor Mash with STAB still has the same power as a super effective hit from this attack though.

Metagross' only below average stat is it's speed, so Agility takes care of that

I found this movepool to be quite effective, I was fighting a friend and it managed to take out 2 of his pokemon and doing considerable damage to the third before falling.

Does your Haxorus have surf for a reason? Haxorus is supposed to use physical attacks based on it's outstanding ATK and lame SPATK


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## bbq sauce (Oct 10, 2011)

TeenRyu said:


> snip


Off the bat - Blaziken is banned to Ubers (technically speed boost Blazkien is banned, not sure about Blaziken with Blaze ability, though, I can't think of why you'd want to use that?)

Other than that - bold nature plus lefties looks like a defensive set, Blaziken doesn't have the defenses for that.. But then you have an attackers moveset. Plus you have 3 physical attacking moves on negative Atk nature.

Remove it and replace it with Infernape if you want a mixed attacker with the same typing.
--------------------------------
No idea why you're using Braviary at all tbph. And you have fly on it. Using fly is an automatic switch to a steel type - and it just so happens a steel type would resist its entire moveset. 

Don't use Braviary, it sucks.
--------------------------------
Haxorus is good, but, you're running a horrible set. First - you have negative Speed nature, and its awkward speed is already its biggest downfall. Second, you're running the lesser ability. 3rd, you're running surf, when it has a terrible special attack stat. Fourth, dragon dance is a much superior boosting move if that's what you want it to do. Doubling its attack is scary, but, it has frail defenses and most hard hitters outspeed it.

Use an adamant nature with Mold Breaker
Change swords dance to Dragon Dance
Leave Outrage
Give it Earthquake
and for the last spot, run Brick Break for the Pokemon that carry air balloons.
---------------------------------
You actually have a good nature for mixed Metagross, but, the problem is mixed metagross is a shitty set. And you have pretty terrible coverage.
1. never put psyshock on a mixed attacker, there's no point. Psyshock is a special attack that attacks physical defense. If your opponent has high sp.def and low def, just hit it with one of Metagross' physical attacks.
2. Adamant orb will do nothing for it. Steel plate is blah, just give it life orb if you wanna up its damage output.
3. run it as a pure physical attacker, choice band is best, but, life orb can work if you want a power drop for the sake of not locking into a move.

Either way, I suggest Adamant nature with a moveset as follows
Meteor Mash
Bullet Punch
Hammer Arm
On mine, I run pursuit here, but, ice punch is good for predicting and incoming Gliscor.
---------------------------------
I'm rather unfamiliar with what liligant does, but, it looks like this would be your support role? Well, there a few notable problems.
Its only means of attacking is a speciall attack, but it has a +Atk nature that reduces its defense. A supporter is going to be switching to several attacks in the course of a match, having reduced defenses does not benefit you. Petal dance is a decent move, but locking into a grass type move for 3 turns is not a good idea. Flying dragons like Salamence or Dragonite come in and get at least 1 free turn of set up.. In the case Mence, that's all it needs.
Overall, a grass type supporter role is filled way better by something like Celebi, who gets a better recovery move in recover (more PP, and no sand nerf), has better attack coverage and offers more status.
I'd definitely change this.
----------------------------------
Zoroark, you have the proper moveset, but, your nature is bad. You want a timid nature preferably, or if not, then you want modest.. timid is best though, since you're going to be boosting your sp. atk.

Overall though, Zoroark is a gimmick pokemon, who CAN cause an upset with the right partner, for example, something that draws resisted attacks that let it set up a nasty plot.. or coming in disguised as a pokemon that draws a physical wall and severly weakening it or killing it, or just forcing out after it plots up, and getting a free turn of firing off +2 speciall attack at whatever switches in.

The problem here, Zoroark, doesn't benefit too greatly from disguising it self as anything on your team.
------------------------------------

Overall you don't really have great synergy, you don't have very good coverage. In fact, you lack a single ice attack. If you were to face off against, something like jolly Landorus with swords dance - nothing could outrun it, nothing could take many of its hits, and nothing has an ice attack to fire back at it, IF it survived one of Landos hits.

Another problem is you lack a ghost/fighting resistance. Terrakion or Lucario after a swords dance will 6-0 your team with 6 consecutive Close Combats. And neither of them really feat much on your team.. Actually, with a Jolly nature and a choice band, Terrakion could probably 6-0 you with Close Combat, no set up needed.

Bulk Up Conkledurr easily ruins you as well. Bulking up on of your physical attackers who can't harm him much, drain punching to regain his health and mach punching any faster with the potential to do any damage.

You have no answer to a fast, hard hitting special attacker.

No steel type means dragons get free reign over your whole team. Bulky Dragon Dance Dragonite fears almost nothing you offer. Can DD and roost pretty freely.. then sweep you entirely. DD Mence with one boost will pick you apart easily.

Actually, you lack a revenge killer as well, meaning anything that learns Dragon Dance and has decent coverage can throw down on a boost and start wrecking you. DD Scarfty could get a pretty clean sweep, with out much effort here. I suggest either, something with decent speed and high attack with a Choice Scarf, or something with hard hitting priority.

I would go completely back to the drawing board and devise a new team.


Also, a sidenote -

You listed levels, but, not EV spreads. If this is your competitive battle team, you don't need to level them up. Wifi battles auto-set all pokemon used to level 100. All you need to do to prep for competitive battles is get the right nature, put together the proper moveset, distribute the EVs, and fully evolve the pokemon. After that, even if it is only level 25 you can wifi battle with it.


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## bbq sauce (Oct 10, 2011)

Oh, I remembered why I originally came to this thread.

As a heads up - Excadrill and Thundurus are likely to be making their way to Ubers very soon. If you use either in standards, make the most of it while you can.


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## Eonflare (Oct 10, 2011)

Do you do competitive battling bbq? You certainly know a lot about it


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## bbq sauce (Oct 11, 2011)

I play casually competitive? if that makes sense?

Like, I don't enter any of the smogon cups or any of that, but, I played a lot on shoddy ladder in Gen 4.. and a decent amount on Pokemon online ladder for gen 5.

But, I've been playing more lately, with actual in game mons now that Smogon added the battle finder, it's a lot easier to get matches than 20 people spamming the battle thread with "OU ANYBODY?"


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## Eonflare (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't even know how to play competitively, though I'd like to. Poor me.


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## bbq sauce (Oct 12, 2011)

It's one of those things that's pretty easy on the surface, but, has a lot of depth. All it really requires is knowledge of the game, and not all 600+ mons, obviously nobody has that.. Just know the main pokemon used in the tier you play in.

After that, the big thing is team building - I like to build a team around a particular goal. Usually, setting up a sweep with a certain pokemon.. so what I do, is I surround it with a few things that counter my main pokemon's counters, and give support to help get to the goal, while also being able to check other threats at the same time.

^ That stuff usually isn't too hard.

The difficulty/depth comes from the fact that no team can fully counter everything in its tier outright, and every team will come across problems that it doesn't have a clear cut counter to.. so in that case, you have to 'counter' the other player, opposed to his pokemon.. Which is what makes the game fun.

There's random shit though, that can be gimmicky, but, can work because it goes against what people expect, or just general gimmicks that an score a win on an unprepared team like baton passing stat boosts.. Though, baton passing isn't common, and kinda gets shut out due to team preview letting you lead something that counters baton pass teams from the start.

The only real way to learn, and get better is playing.

Read up smogon, then download pokemon online, and just test things out.


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## Wizard (Apr 6, 2012)

How common are electric type attacks in ou and uber? Are they mostly physical/special? my team doesn't resist it (all are neutral to it), wanted to know if it is crucial to get the electric resist.


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## Death-kun (May 15, 2012)

It really depends, but Thunderbolt and Thunder are quite common. The toss-up between Thunderbolt and Discharge is usually over power vs paralysis chance. Thunderbolt for more power, Discharge for the higher chance of paralysis. Almost every Electric-type Pokemon in OU/Uber will have at least one powerful STAB Electric attack. As will Pokemon who are trying to make use of Kyogre's Drizzle in Ubers, including Kyogre itself which often has Thunder (100% accuracy in the rain, which it automatically makes upon switch-in). Rain Dance teams in OU will usually try to abuse Thunder as well if they can.

So I'd have to Electric-type moves are pretty common. But it's not incredibly important to have resists against it.


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## Death-kun (May 28, 2012)

I hope people get more active in competitive battling once Black/White 2 come out.


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## bbq sauce (Jun 25, 2012)

OU has Drizzle Politoed, so perma rain does exist in OU.. but the main thunder abuser (Thundurus) has been banned to uber. Not to say that the threat of stab thunder is gone with him.

Also, one of the most used pokemon in OU for a long time was Rotom-w (not sure about now).. and while it doesn't pack thunder often, it does have Volt Switch/thunderbolt. And if you're playing a volt-turn team (if people still use this?) you'll be constantly taking damage and losing momentum from this move.

Also, tbolt is one of the more common coverage moves for special attackers, so I'd say it's actually pretty important to have a elec resist/immunity.


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## NarutoPredictions (Sep 26, 2012)

i very gud at pokemon i beat all and smogon!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mist Puppet (Sep 26, 2012)

who are the biggest threats in OU to sand teams?


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## Dorzium (Sep 27, 2012)

Mist Puppet said:


> who are the biggest threats in OU to sand teams?



Probably Obamasnow for sure, but I'm not sure about others though.


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## bbq sauce (Nov 16, 2012)

Dorzium said:


> Probably Obamasnow for sure, but I'm not sure about others though.



Has something changed dramatically??? Last I played competitive, hail was considered the weakest of the 4 weathers/hardly seen in OU.

Biggest threats to sand teams are generally rain teams. The usual suspects of OU sand teams generally fall to the typical rain abusers.

Fighting types (which are VERY strong, this gen) tend to counter a lot of the common OU sand users, too. 

Terrakion slays basically any T-tar for free, just as long as it doesn't switch into EQ. Terrakion also beats Skarmory, which is a huge deal for a physical attacker. Bops Ferrothorn pretty easy. Though, it can have trouble with Landorus.

Conkledurr has mach punch to take down the fragile/fast attackers (Terrakion) and the bulk/endurance to fight it out with other defensive heavy hitters, since drain punch lets it attack and heal at the same time. BUT, it loses pretty badly to special attackers, especially those that can take a mach punch.

Breloom is good, because 1) its typing gives resistances to EQ/stone edge combo that a lot of sand attackers pack.. 2) carries fighting/grass STABs that deal heavy damage/SE damage to a good deal of sand users. 3) It is a threat to both sand an rain teams, which is ideal on a Sun/weatherless team. Though, it loses badly to Skarmory, and while it can beat T-tar, it can't switch into mixed Ttar (the most commonly used). 

There are more fighting types, but those are the ones that stand out to me.. there other means to beating sand, aside from rain/fighting types, though, obviously.. and having a strong fighting type/rain team doesn't assure you'll win either.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 13, 2014)

Hey, I dont know if this is the right place but, I am looking for a good moveset for my krookodile.
I am thinking about making him Adamant or Jolly and have him have:
Earthquake and Stone Edge. Have also been thinking of Thunder Fang, Crunch.

I was thinking about making him a sweeper, but I am not so sure. I will be having a feraligatr on my team aswell. I like Physical attack pokemon.


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## Aduro (Mar 14, 2015)

Suigetsu said:


> Hey, I dont know if this is the right place but, I am looking for a good moveset for my krookodile.
> I am thinking about making him Adamant or Jolly and have him have:
> Earthquake and Stone Edge. Have also been thinking of Thunder Fang, Crunch.
> 
> I was thinking about making him a sweeper, but I am not so sure. I will be having a feraligatr on my team aswell. I like Physical attack pokemon.



Adamant and Jolly are great for a krookodile,and its a pretty useful pokemon to have in-game, or even competitively, especially if it has that hax moxie boost.

 Still a supereffective thunder fang will basically still do less than an earthquake or crunch that isn't supereffective because it doesn't get stab, and its chance of paralyzing or flinching are both very low.  Taunt or dragon tail might be more helpful, especially if you're playing competitively. Knock off is also a potentially useful move now its base power has moved up to 65, its really helpful in competitive battles.


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