# What form is Naruto at his strongest?



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2015)

This has been a point of contention for a long time. Many are convinced it's at the *second Valley of the End* fight, others believe it's *the Last*, and the few who have actually watched *Boruto: The Movie* say Naruto is at his peak there.

So which is it?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 21, 2015)

Power wise, after VotE as Naruto got 100% Kurama. 100% Kurama automatically means Six Paths Sage Mode gets more powerful too.

However it kind of gets fuzzy when you talk about skill. Logically when Naruto gained 100% Kurama, after VotE, that should be his strongest. Since his skills were probably at their sharpest and he got a power boost.

The Last, it depends if you think his skills degraded over the 2 years since VotE2. There is no doubt that the Gaiden Naruto/Boruto movie Naruto is probably the weakest one in terms of skill.


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## The Undying (Aug 21, 2015)

Not sure about raw power, but in terms of overall combat ability:

As someone who watched both The Last and the leaked action footage from Boruto, I'm still of the belief that his peak was VOTE 2. RSM >> 100% BSM >>>> 50% BSM. I'm not arguing that he's incapable of accessing RSM after VOTE 2, just going off of his demonstrated performance.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 21, 2015)

After his match up with Sasuke, but before the last era and also before everyone's appearances changes. As now, he has 100% Kurama 6 Paths chakra and his skills and capabilities should be at their zenith, since he hasn't fallen off yet.


However, this will eventually change as more content is released, as then he would probably access his RSM and we'd be able to see the improvement made since his fight with Sasuke.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2015)

I honestly think Naruto is at his best in the Last, his feats of tanking a moon-level attack _and_ overpowering it exceed anything he did prior, including his final battle with Sasuke. That was accomplished with just Bijū Sage Mode, too. Assuming he still had Rikūdo Sage Mode at the time of the Last's occurrence, he would've been miles stronger still.

But if Momoshiki is reputedly more powerful than Kaguya, Naruto defeating him (I assume he does) in Boruto: The Movie, would indeed place his peak in said movie - scaling-wise, anyways.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 21, 2015)

It's not VOTE2, Sasuke said he only had a little bit of the bijuu's chakra left, and he only had 50% of Kurama, even though his feats in that battle were insane.

The movies are written for the basis of plot and entertainment, there's no possible way I'd actually suggest 30 year old Naruto (Boruto Movie) with 100% Kurama is less powerful than any other incarnation.

In my opinion he lost nothing but the ability to Jesus heal/use CT (Yang Seal), and had a decade to gain experience and further develop his techniques, as much as Gaiden would make you believe his skills dulled (what a joke )

Those who believe he lost Rikudo's chakra after VOTE2 (either via losing his arm- which is ridiculous considering the seal was gone prior to them battling, or via undoing Infinite Tsukuyomi) should look closer at the movie feats. Pre-Rikudo Naruto couldn't throw FRS in base nor could he guide it, and he certainly did not have the physical speed or physical strength in base to land powerful attacks on god-levels. These are clearly things he would not be capable of doing without still having the special chakra that transcended him.


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## ARGUS (Aug 21, 2015)

Naruto in either thhe last or boruto movie is at his peak 
its: 
Last Naruto w/RSM >= Boruto Movie naruto > VOTE2 Naruto >> Last BSM Naruto >>>> BSM Naruto > rest

unlike sasuke, VOTE2 is not his peak since he gained the full kyuubi which doubles his firepower and durability at the very least, given how much stronger is full kyuubi in comparison to half kyuubi, and when we add the same equivalent RSM boost then we get the obvious that adult naruto/last naruto  are superior, 

then theres the fact that narutos chakra isnt fully developed during his young age, so with more time and experience his chakra gets stronger, thus resulting in stronger attacks and avatar, 

reason why i have last naruto  above boruto movie naruto is on the sheer fact that he has a better battle sense, and his power is more or less the same since they both have the same arsenal and the same bijuu


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## Ersa (Aug 21, 2015)

There is literally no way you can place The Last Naruto under VOTE2, unless you assume he lost Rikudo mode which I doubt since Sasuke kept his Rinnegan. He literally didn't need it against Toneri because his weaker BM is just that strong.

While this is hypothetical I'd say:

_The Last Naruto Rikudo Mode_ > Boruto Movie Naruto > VOTE 2 Naruto > 100% The Last Naruto BSM (Toneri fight)

I cite the Last as the peaks for both Sasuke and Naruto because they had yet to lose any battle sense, showed vastly superior base/BSM feats and had trained for 2 years straight.


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## Kyu (Aug 22, 2015)

BSM _The Last_ Naruto showed feats superior to his younger VotE2 Rikudou incarnation; _Boruto: The Movie_ Naruto is basically the same with twelve-ish years of additional experience under his belt.

Naruto (_Boruto: The Movie_) = Naruto (_The Last_) >>  Naruto (Valley of the End II)


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2015)

VOTE-Naruto is the strongest, because he lost RSM and the ability to gather all the natural energy in the world after that.

One has to remember that VOTE-Naruto was taking on someone who was nearing the power of Juubidara, Hagoromo, and Kaguya, in the form of Sasuke's 9-Bijuu-Susano'o, on equal footing all by himself. Every other time he faced someone or something of this magnitude he need the help of others.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> VOTE-Naruto is the strongest, because he lost RSM and the ability to gather all the natural energy in the world after that.
> 
> One has to remember that VOTE-Naruto was taking on someone who was nearing the power of Juubidara, Hagoromo, and Kaguya, in the form of Sasuke's 9-Bijuu-Susano'o, on equal footing all by himself. Every other time he faced someone or something of this magnitude he need the help of others.


I don't believe he has lost RSM, or any of the abilities the Sage has granted him. I'm sure it was meant to last him forever, as one doesn't get half of the legendary Sage's prowess, then lose it after a battle. I'm pretty sure something as significant as that would have been mentioned, likewise to how Kakashi mentioned the loss of his DMS prowess. 

It's also worth noting that Hagoromo, stated that Naruto will always have chakra from all the Bjuu in him as a means of having a meeting place for all of them.


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## Bonly (Aug 23, 2015)

I'd guess that Naruto during the Boruto movie would be the strongest form power wise. He has god knows how many years to have further enhance his skills and jutsu before becoming Hokage and his power shouldn't be to hindered by being rusty(if he still is) and his SoSP mode would be stupid strong as well


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I honestly think Naruto is at his best in the Last, his feats of tanking a moon-level attack _and_ overpowering it exceed anything he did prior, including his final battle with Sasuke. That was accomplished with just Bijū Sage Mode, too. Assuming he still had Rikūdo Sage Mode at the time of the Last's occurrence, he would've been miles stronger still.
> 
> But if Momoshiki is reputedly more powerful than Kaguya, Naruto defeating him (I assume he does) in Boruto: The Movie, would indeed place his peak in said movie - scaling-wise, anyways.



Naruto doesn't defeat Momoshiki. Boruto does with Naruto and Sasuke's help.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 23, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I honestly think Naruto is at his best in the Last, his feats of tanking a moon-level attack _and_ overpowering it exceed anything he did prior, including his final battle with Sasuke. That was accomplished with just Bijū Sage Mode, too.


I have watched the movie yesterday, and let me tell you this, toneri's golden sword is overrated as all hell.

The movie spends 60% of it's time *inside *the moon.
it goes a long way to tell you that narutoverse moon is in fact hollow and has a life supporting enviornment inside it.

So toneri cutting the moon in half isn't actually a moon-level attack. 
it's probably around continent-level, which is something that god-tiers in the manga can do too (even the weaker ones).


I'll wait on the boruto movie, but upto the gaiden naruto's strongest is still VOTE2.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2015)

Doesn't really matter if it's hollow, the blade extended the full length of the moon, meaning the guy's attack range is 1/4 the length of the earth. 

Continents range considerably in size, Asia is immensely larger than Australia. 

Countries also range considerably in size, Russia is far larger than Cuba, and it is actually larger than Australia (a continent) 

Australia is not 1/4th the length of earth, Toneri's attack range far eclipses Australia (continent level) if we assume their earth & moon are comparable to ours. 

Looking at manga panels, the moon looks to be larger in their verse than in ours, unless it is much closer to the earth than ours. 

But in that regard, we can't really apply "country" and "continent" busting level as a size comparison if that verses' moon is different in size than ours. Why wouldn't their countries and continents, if not their earth, be a different size?

Also, I'm no geologist/astronomer/physicist, but I assume a moon with a hallow cavity isn't capable of sustaining itself (the moon has a core, like earth. Assuming it doesn't, why does the outer crust remain attached to itself without any inner-mass pulling it together [Gravity]?). 

Assuming we take the author's words as canon, the moon was created with Chibaku Tensei, a technique that sucked earth's outer crust into a small core/target (Gedo Mazo/Kaguya) and created a single solidified rock- without an inner cavity or core, meaning Toneri cut through a shit ton of rock. 

This is logical considering the moon did not do anything upon Toneri's technique separating it, if it did have a core (iron, molten iron), I'd imagine there would've been some after affect.


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## The Runner (Aug 23, 2015)

The Last Naruto had BSM with 100% Kurama

The Naruto who fought Kaguya had all the Nine Biju, Sage of Six Paths Senjutsu, and CAN use Nature Chakra as well.

Hokage Naruto is just a rusty version of The Last Naruto

Guess who is logically stronger...


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## Deer Lord (Aug 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Doesn't really matter if it's hollow, the blade extended the full length of the moon, meaning the guy's attack range is 1/4 the length of the earth.
> 
> Continents range considerably in size, Asia is immensely larger than Australia.
> 
> ...


Why does range even matter in terms of destriuctive capacity?
Toneri was not cutting through the entire diameter of a solid moon, it is considerably easier to cut through a hollow object and would thus require an energy output far lesser than cutting a solid object.

The extension range could be used for the speed of the attack ,I guess. 
But it has no bearing on destructive capacity.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Why does range even matter in terms of destriuctive capacity?
> Toneri was not cutting through the entire diameter of a solid moon, it is considerably easier to cut through a hollow object and would thus require an energy output far lesser than cutting a solid object.
> 
> The extension range could be used for the speed of the attack ,I guess.
> But it has no bearing on destructive capacity.


Cutting the moon in half with an extremely long edged chakra blade doesn't mean he can erase Australia dude.

I never said he could. I don't know how anyone could. 

I said his attack range was beyond that of continents. 

If he extended that blade up at the southern-most tip of Australia, then brought it straight down facing north, it would probably reach beyond it's northern coast deep to cut it's northern islands, it might even cut part of South East Asia- but it wouldn't bust them- it would only cut through a small area of them, and go deep into the earth.  

Tailed Beast Balls erase mountains, Madara's PS Blade only cuts them apart. There's a difference between 
>Attack range
>Penetrating Power
>Destructive Capacity

I'm not sure how you, or anyone came to the conclusion that a penetration chakra blade with extremely long range can bust a continent. All it does is cut.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 23, 2015)

I...know that.

I don't get why you were bringing up range when I strictly talked about destructive capacity


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2015)

You said "moon level attack" 

Madara cutting a mountain in half with PS means it's a mountain-level attack. The man can cut mountains. 

Sasuke cutting meteorites in half with PS means it's a meteorite-level attack. The man can cut meteors. 

It was a moon level attack, chopping it in half means it's a moon-level attack. The man can cut moons. 

None of them "destroyed" their targets, they cut them. 

Cutting the moon in half remains the greatest penetrating (cutting power) feat to ever be associated with the series to date. There should be nothing/no one in the series that that technique cannot cut through.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You said "moon level attack"
> 
> It was a moon level attack, chopping it in half means it's a moon-level attack.
> 
> Madara cutting a mountain in half with PS means it's a mountain-level attack.


That is how people are refering to it.

and it's wrong.
Its moon level in scale, it is not moon level in potency.

That attack didn't cut an actual fully solid moon in half but people are assuming that since naruto overpowered it then naruto must also be able to bust moons.

which is straight out wrong.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2015)

He can't bust moons, because Toneri can't bust moons, he can only cut them.

A blade does not bust, it cuts.

Again, anyone who suggests that technique can "bust" (obliterate/utterly destroy) anything doesn't understand basic physics.

Granted "split" is considered in the definition of bust, but I'm fairly certain what most NF posters mean when they say bust, which is to completely annihilate/obliterate.


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## The Undying (Aug 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can't bust moons, because Toneri can't bust moons, he can only cut them.
> 
> A blade does not bust, it cuts.
> 
> ...



Deer Lord's original point was in response to a post arguing that Naruto tanking this "moon-level" attack exceeds anything he did prior, though.

The point was that if the only impressive thing about _Kinrin Tensei Baku_ was its range, then Naruto combating it isn't necessarily suggestive of a feat that's quantitatively any greater than what VOTE 2 Naruto could have replicated.

Personally, I refuse to believe that a version of Naruto capable of combating Sasuke's Bijuu Susanoo itself was actually _weaker_ than the one who could fight against Toneri, as there's no real reason to believe that Toneri was anywhere close to being on par with Hagoromo.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can't bust moons, because Toneri can't bust moons, he can only cut them.
> 
> A blade does not bust, it cuts.
> 
> ...


The power which Toneri used to cut the moon was in excess of 50 exatons, more than enough for full moon busting. Naruto blocked that attack without effort, so yes, he can bust moons when he needs to.

And Naruto's strongest form? The one he used against Momoshiki, his full, 100% Kurama Six Path Sage Mode.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 24, 2015)

^
pretty sure that was calculated with the mass of the real moon in mind.
narutoverse moon, as the movie clearly shows is hollow and would require less energy to cut through.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 24, 2015)

Either when he had all of the world's nature energy in VotE or in Boruto the Movie assuming he retained his Six Path chakra and maybe trained a bit showing he learned from his mistakes after the Shin fiasco. 100% Kurama with Six path chakra is a rather nice power boost.


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## Raiken (Aug 24, 2015)

Naruto @Kaguya >> Naruto @The Last = Naruto @Boruto >> Naruto @JJ Obito

The two chevrons in-between Naruto @Boruto and Naruto@JJ Obito are simply the result of gaining 100% Kurama and training, skill/ability increases.


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## The Undying (Aug 24, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> pretty sure that was calculated with the mass of the real moon in mind.
> narutoverse moon, as the movie clearly shows is hollow and would require less energy to cut through.




Most discussions I've read on the subject were in agreement that it wasn't 50 exatons anyway. A more detailed calc pegged the feat at approximately 600 petatons (multi-continent level) and that one was already assuming that the moon was the exact same size as ours and didn't contain any hollow areas, so I'd wager that the real measurement would likely be even less. I don't personally put much stock into calcs, but it's worth mentioning I think.

Now compare that to a Juubi Jin's hype of having the ability to "lay waste" to the entire planet with a strike from something like Nunoboko, and it's doubtful that Toneri was much if at all stronger than Juubito.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The power which Toneri used to cut the moon was in excess of 50 exatons, more than enough for full moon busting. Naruto blocked that attack without effort, so yes, he can bust moons when he needs to.
> 
> And Naruto's strongest form? The one he used against Momoshiki, his full, 100% Kurama Six Path Sage Mode.


I'm not understanding... the technique he used was an extension blade- how can it completely destroy a moon.. when he didn't even come close to doing it in the movie after using the technique on it twice?

That argument bends logic to it's absolute limits.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'm not understanding... the technique he used was an extension blade- how can it completely destroy a moon.. when he didn't even come close to doing it in the movie after using the technique on it twice?
> 
> That argument bends logic to it's absolute limits.


Its because the two halves of the moon were forced, began to drift apart (creating a Coriolis effect), and began spinning independently from the force of the blade Toneri used. If focused, that's enough power to destroy the moon itself.



Deer Lord said:


> ^
> pretty sure that was calculated with the mass of the real moon in mind.
> narutoverse moon, as the movie clearly shows is hollow and would require less energy to cut through.


Only two areas, the size of cities are 'hollowed out', the rest of the moon was the same size, density, and mass as our moon. It wasn't completely hollowed out, only one specific area was. Remember, only ONE clan lived there in ONE shinobi village.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its because the two halves of the moon were forced, began to drift apart (creating a Coriolis effect), and began spinning independently from the force of the blade Toneri used. If focused, that's enough power to destroy the moon itself.
> 
> 
> Only two areas, the size of cities are 'hollowed out', the rest of the moon was the same size, density, and mass as our moon. It wasn't completely hollowed out, only one specific area was. Remember, only ONE clan lived there in ONE shinobi village.


Errr... no.

1. Naruto and the guys were flying around on those birds for nearly a week inside the moon
covering what seemed to be a country sized area at the very least.


2. when toneri rofl stomps naruto and extracts his chakra, naruto's chakra blows a hole to the moon's surface. You can see the actual width of the moon's crust in that scene.
eyeballing it, it doesn't seem to be more than a few hundred meters, maaaaaybe more than a kilometer.
Plus later in the movie kurama has no trouble punching through the moons crust from a different angle when fighting that rock megazord thingy.

The battlefield where the main and the side branches of the otsutsuki clan fough is also another location inside the moon you don't see in the movie. suggesting there's more to it.

Nowhere in the movie is it suggested narutovers' moon is the same as ours.
that is your conclusion and is contradicted by what is shown in the movie.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Errr... no.
> 
> 1. Naruto and the guys were flying around on those birds for nearly a week inside the moon
> covering what seemed to be a country sized area at the very least.


Where was a timeframe given? There was none. The entirety of the moon isn't hollow at all. And a 'country sized area' is still small compared to the full size of the moon.



> 2. when toneri rofl stomps naruto and extracts his chakra, naruto's chakra blows a hole to the moon's surface. You can see the actual width of the moon's crust in that scene.
> eyeballing it, it doesn't seem to be more than a few hundred meters, maaaaaybe more than a kilometer.
> Plus later in the movie kurama has no trouble punching through the moons crust from a different angle when fighting that rock megazord thingy.


Kurama was amped by Naruto's Sage Chakra + being 100% deer lord.


> The battlefield where the main and the side branches of the otsutsuki clan fough is also another location inside the moon you don't see in the movie. suggesting there's more to it.
> 
> Nowhere in the movie is it suggested narutovers' moon is the same as ours.
> that is your conclusion and is contradicted by what is shown in the movie.


Except the entirety of the moon wasn't shown to be hollow, only one place. Even if its as big as a country, that's still small in comparison to the entirety of the moon.

And the calcs still support that 50 exaton outcome, and it hasn't been changed or contradicted.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 24, 2015)

1. There is no evidence Naruto lost RSM.

2. How do we know Naruto's skills didn't decline after VotE2?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 24, 2015)

Boruto the movie naruto is the strongest. Didn't lose any of his former power while gaining more(100% kurama) while getting more experience and arguably skill in his older age,

The rusty crap isn't present in the movie as he fought on par with a non rusty sasuke in the movie. In the gaiden he was looking worse than sasuke and getting heat on it from everyone(no one shat on his performance in the movie).


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## Ersa (Aug 25, 2015)

Naruto's skills didn't decline because his base form  in the Last showed vast improvement compared to VOTE2. 

It's simple.

Gaiden Naruto perhaps not, I'll wait for the movie to judge.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Where was a timeframe given? There was none. The entirety of the moon isn't hollow at all. And a 'country sized area' is still small compared to the full size of the moon.
> 
> 
> Kurama was amped by Naruto's Sage Chakra + being 100% deer lord.
> ...



Shikamaru's doomsday clock was counting down the days untill zero hour.
If I'm not mistaken they still had at least 5 days left when they entered the moon.
though they only tarveled during two of these days.

And you haven't addressed my other points at all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Boruto the movie naruto is the strongest. Didn't lose any of his former power while gaining more(100% kurama) while getting more experience and arguably skill in his older age,
> 
> The rusty crap isn't present in the movie as he fought on par with a non rusty sasuke in the movie. In the gaiden he was looking worse than sasuke and getting heat on it from everyone(no one shat on his performance in the movie).



If you just look at chapters 700+9 and 700+10, you wouldn't think Naruto's rusty. Same with the movie. However Kurama, literally the character closest to Naruto, said that Naruto is rusty. So he's rusty. 

So I suppose the implication is adult Sasuke is equal to a rusty Naruto.



Ersatz said:


> Naruto's skills didn't decline because his base form  in the Last showed vast improvement compared to VOTE2.
> 
> It's simple.
> 
> Gaiden Naruto perhaps not, I'll wait for the movie to judge.



Why do you assume a lot of time passed between the Gaiden and the movie? Moreover why do you assume Naruto regained the skills he lost during the time gap between the film and movie?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 25, 2015)

Time between the Gaiden and the movie looks to be a year or so, with six months being the minimum between Chunin Exams. More than enough time for Naruto to shake his battle sense rustiness.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 25, 2015)

If he was looking bad compared to sasuke in the gaiden yet fighting equal with him in the movie that tells you he shook off his rustiness. I kinda already explained this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More than enough time for Naruto to shake his battle sense rustiness.



He was still doing Hokage business... no training.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 25, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was still doing Hokage business... no training.


How do you know he didn't train in the intern? He can accumulate experience with Kage Bushins you recall, and after being called out on being rusty in battle sense by Kurama, you honestly expect him to STAY that even though there's a threat on the horizon?


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How do you know he didn't train in the intern? He can accumulate experience with Kage Bushins you recall, and after being called out on being rusty in battle sense by Kurama, you honestly expect him to STAY that even though there's a threat on the horizon?


Most Hokages are jammed packed with paper work and evidently, Naruto prioritizes his Kage work. What's more, Naruto barely even spends time with his family, so it's highly doubtful that training was completed during that period. 

Although, I could be wrong…
We'll likely see Naruto's capabilities at its zenith within new released content. Then, we can judge from there. However to me, he just doesn't seem zenithal, at least not yet. I'm sure he can do so much more after these past years if he trained like he use to.


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## Ersa (Aug 26, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why do you assume a lot of time passed between the Gaiden and the movie? Moreover why do you assume Naruto regained the skills he lost during the time gap between the film and movie?


Judging from some of his feats, he looks more impressive then Gaiden.

I was mainly disputing your point VOTE2 was his peak when The Last Naruto should be stronger unless he lost RSM. Because TL base Naruto is miles ahead of VOTE2 base Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How do you know he didn't train in the intern? He can accumulate experience with Kage Bushins you recall, and after being called out on being rusty in battle sense by Kurama, you honestly expect him to STAY that even though there's a threat on the horizon?



Why would he train when he has to do Hokage duties? He lacks the time to train unlike before he was Hokage. 

He can accumulate experience with KBs, but chooses not to. He uses KBs to speed up his work in the Hokage office. It seems that's mentally draining so he doesn't use them to train. Hence his skills declining in the Gaiden. 

Yes, even after Kurama called him out on the loss of his battle sense he would still stay like that. Being a bit more on guard, he does better as seen with the second encounter with Shin and onwards. However that doesn't reclaim skill he's lost.



Ersatz said:


> Judging from some of his feats, he looks more impressive then Gaiden.
> 
> I was mainly disputing your point VOTE2 was his peak when The Last Naruto should be stronger unless he lost RSM. Because TL base Naruto is miles ahead of VOTE2 base Naruto.



Indeed, but his second time fighting Shin was also more impressive than the first time. Doesn't mean he regained skill he lost. Hokage duties seemingly didn't get easier so it is unlikely he trained to reclaim his skills.

VotE2 Naruto and TL Naruto are hard to rank. It depends if we think Naruto kept training. If he did, then his TL form defo is the superior form. Otherwise, probably not.


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## Ersa (Aug 26, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Indeed, but his second time fighting Shin was also more impressive than the first time. Doesn't mean he regained skill he lost. Hokage duties seemingly didn't get easier so it is unlikely he trained to reclaim his skills.
> 
> VotE2 Naruto and TL Naruto are hard to rank. It depends if we think Naruto kept training. If he did, then his TL form defo is the superior form. Otherwise, probably not.


I think speculation is all we do at this point, I'm fine with having Gaiden Naruto weaker then VOTE2 but I want to see the movie to be certain.

I disagree honestly, if you watch the movie in his base form he improved in every single metric. His BSM is capable of matching a Juubi-Jin level opponent compared to previously where he needed Sasuke and his dad. There's no reason for him not to train because he hasn't become Hokage yet.

The only way he's weaker if he lost RSM which is ridiculous because Sasuke kept his Tomoe-Rinnegan. TL BSM Naruto > VOTE 2 BSM Naruto, TL Base Naruto > VOTE2 base Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 27, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would he train when he has to do Hokage duties? He lacks the time to train unlike before he was Hokage.


Why would he train even though he has Hokage duties? I don't know...having Sasuke's sword slam into him when he could easily dodge it in the War probably has something to do with it. Not only that, again...threat upon the horizon. How can he protect anyone if he doesn't whip himself back to shape?


> He can accumulate experience with KBs, but chooses not to. He uses KBs to speed up his work in the Hokage office. It seems that's mentally draining so he doesn't use them to train. Hence his skills declining in the Gaiden.


He can just have two or three Kage Bushins train. His performance in the movie far exceeds that of the Gaiden, dude. Its obvious he forced himself to train after since if he didn't, he would lose and the village would be put in danger.


> Yes, even after Kurama called him out on the loss of his battle sense he would still stay like that. Being a bit more on guard, he does better as seen with the second encounter with Shin and onwards. However that doesn't reclaim skill he's lost.


From what he's done in the movie, its obvious he forced himself to regain the battle sense he lost. Otherwise, Momoshiki and Kinishiki would have killed him (given they're tiers above Shin and stronger than Juubi Jin Madara).


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

> Its because the two halves of the moon were forced, began to drift apart (creating a Coriolis effect), and began spinning independently from the force of the blade Toneri used. If focused, that's enough power to destroy the moon itself.


What do you mean "if focused"?

The technique is the technique, there is no other form of it.

It's a blade, period.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What do you mean "if focused"?
> 
> The technique is the technique, there is no other form of it.
> 
> It's a blade, period.


Focused as in a blast or beam. Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku, if used in the same manner as a Bijudama, would have had more than enough energy to destroy the moon _entirely_ due to the fact its blade form had enough force to change the rotation of the moon, force both halves apart, and made one half of the moon spin independently of the other. That requires at least 50 exatons from the calcs.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why would he train even though he has Hokage duties? I don't know...having Sasuke's sword slam into him when he could easily dodge it in the War probably has something to do with it. Not only that, again...threat upon the horizon. How can he protect anyone if he doesn't whip himself back to shape?



He protected people just fine when they encountered Shin a second time. He barely has enough time for his family, and you expect me to believe he'll find time to train? 



> He can just have two or three Kage Bushins train. His performance in the movie far exceeds that of the Gaiden, dude. Its obvious he forced himself to train after since if he didn't, he would lose and the village would be put in danger.



If it was that simple, he would've done that. His performance when he met Shin a second time far exceeds the first. In the movie he just used bigger tools i.e. Bijuu Mode. That's it. The burden of proof is on you to show that he forced himself to train. Naruto still has sheer power to protect the village and the skills to back it up. However the facts we have clearly state that his skills are not what they used to be.



> From what he's done in the movie, its obvious he forced himself to regain the battle sense he lost. Otherwise, Momoshiki and Kinishiki would have killed him (given they're tiers above Shin and stronger than Juubi Jin Madara).



All he did in the movie was use more tools (BM) than he did in the Gaiden.
Naruto probably would have been able to perform better against Momoshiki and Kinshiki if he had his VotE2/TL level skills.



Ersatz said:


> I think speculation is all we do at this point, I'm fine with having Gaiden Naruto weaker then VOTE2 but I want to see the movie to be certain.
> 
> I disagree honestly, if you watch the movie in his base form he improved in every single metric. His BSM is capable of matching a Juubi-Jin level opponent compared to previously where he needed Sasuke and his dad. There's no reason for him not to train because he hasn't become Hokage yet.
> 
> The only way he's weaker if he lost RSM which is ridiculous because Sasuke kept his Tomoe-Rinnegan. TL BSM Naruto > VOTE 2 BSM Naruto, TL Base Naruto > VOTE2 base Naruto.



The movie is doesn't, however suggest he lost his battle sense. In the manga, perhaps even in TL, Naruto was able to work through sneak attacks. In the Gaiden, Shin managed to get him. He also couldn't work through the same level of pain, unlike his previous incarnations. In this new film, he just faced someone who didn't sneak attack him like Shin, hence the better performance. 

I can understand arguments for TL Naruto. I personally don't think he lost BSM. The only way for us to say TL Naruto is superior in every way to VotE2 Naruto is to also admit that Toneri would have been able to push VotE2 Naruto a bit more (well the KCM version of VotE Naruto). Which is an acceptable conclusion seeing as TL Naruto had everything VotE2 Naruto had plus the other half of Kurama.


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## Ersa (Aug 27, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The movie is doesn't, however suggest he lost his battle sense. In the manga, perhaps even in TL, Naruto was able to work through sneak attacks. In the Gaiden, Shin managed to get him. He also couldn't work through the same level of pain, unlike his previous incarnations. In this new film, he just faced someone who didn't sneak attack him like Shin, hence the better performance.


TL Naruto reacted fine to sneak attacks.

But yes I can see your reasoning for the other part.


> I can understand arguments for TL Naruto. I personally don't think he lost BSM. The only way for us to say TL Naruto is superior in every way to VotE2 Naruto is to also admit that Toneri would have been able to push VotE2 Naruto a bit more (well the KCM version of VotE Naruto). Which is an acceptable conclusion seeing as TL Naruto had everything VotE2 Naruto had plus the other half of Kurama.


Yep, I think he kept RSM but chose not to use it.

I think Toneri would've forced VOTE2 Naruto into RSM. Yeah and as you said TL Naruto is basically VOTE 2 Naruto + 2 years of training + 100% Kurama. Unlike Gaiden he wasn't noted to be rusty so logically speaking he shouldn't be weaker unless adding more Kurama and training made him go backwards.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 27, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He protected people just fine when they encountered Shin a second time. He barely has enough time for his family, and you expect me to believe he'll find time to train?


The moment he was stabbed through the gut was the moment Naruto realized he needed to train again. Otherwise, he leaves people who he protects vulnerable. All Naruto needs to do is have one or two clones train while he does all his work and he becomes in tip top shape again.




> If it was that simple, he would've done that. His performance when he met Shin a second time far exceeds the first. In the movie he just used bigger tools i.e. Bijuu Mode. That's it. The burden of proof is on you to show that he forced himself to train. Naruto still has sheer power to protect the village and the skills to back it up. However the facts we have clearly state that his skills are not what they used to be.


The movie he showed far better reactions and skills than against Shin in the Gaiden. And we're talking about a guy who can create 1000 clones at once bare minimum, creating two or three just for training isn't too hard for him. 

By the time of the movie, its clear his skills weren't rusty anymore. Otherwise Momoshiki and Kinishiki would have killed him.




> All he did in the movie was use more tools (BM) than he did in the Gaiden.
> Naruto probably would have been able to perform better against Momoshiki and Kinshiki if he had his VotE2/TL level skills.


Naruto in the VOTE2 would have gotten killed against Momoshiki and Kinishiki. The two would have kicked his ass. Hokage Naruto is leagues above his teenage self in terms of power, speed, skills, and experience. 

Naruto showed better reactions than he did in the Gaiden. There was no damn way Boruto Movie Naruto would have gotten stabbed like Gaiden Naruto.


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## Zef (Aug 27, 2015)

The form with Rinnegan pattern & nine tomoe on his back, that Madara likened to himself.


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## Mercurial (Aug 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The moment he was stabbed through the gut was the moment Naruto realized he needed to train again. Otherwise, he leaves people who he protects vulnerable. All Naruto needs to do is have one or two clones train while he does all his work and he becomes in tip top shape again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you are mostly going with personal assumptions. Are there any proofs?


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## Sans (Aug 28, 2015)

Part I Naruto is the least annoying.

That is what we're discussing, right?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> TL Naruto reacted fine to sneak attacks.
> 
> But yes I can see your reasoning for the other part.



I didn't say TL Naruto couldn't react to sneak attacks well.



> Yep, I think he kept RSM but chose not to use it.
> 
> I think Toneri would've forced VOTE2 Naruto into RSM. Yeah and as you said TL Naruto is basically VOTE 2 Naruto + 2 years of training + 100% Kurama. Unlike Gaiden he wasn't noted to be rusty so logically speaking he shouldn't be weaker unless adding more Kurama and training made him go backwards.



That I can agree with.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The moment he was stabbed through the gut was the moment Naruto realized he needed to train again. Otherwise, he leaves people who he protects vulnerable. All Naruto needs to do is have one or two clones train while he does all his work and he becomes in tip top shape again.



Naruto never said he realised that he needed to train again. You realise a the comment message from the last chapter, the Gaiden and the Boruto movie was that all of Naruto's time pretty much goes into his Hokage duties i.e. no time to "[become] in tip top shape again".

Being stabbed once obviously didn't make Naruto stop all his Hokage duties to train.



> The movie he showed far better reactions and skills than against Shin in the Gaiden. And we're talking about a guy who can create 1000 clones at once bare minimum, creating two or three just for training isn't too hard for him.
> 
> By the time of the movie, its clear his skills weren't rusty anymore. Otherwise Momoshiki and Kinishiki would have killed him.



No-one in the movie used a sneak attack like Shin did. Naruto, even in the Gaiden, did well when he wasn't hit with sneak attacks like Shin's. 

If the clone point was valid, he'd have already done that to train. There's a reason it didn't cross his mind. 



> Naruto in the VOTE2 would have gotten killed against Momoshiki and Kinishiki. The two would have kicked his ass. Hokage Naruto is leagues above his teenage self in terms of power, speed, skills, and experience.
> 
> Naruto showed better reactions than he did in the Gaiden. There was no damn way Boruto Movie Naruto would have gotten stabbed like Gaiden Naruto.



Naruto in VOTE2 would've not gotten killed. Kinshiki wouldn't be trouble for him and Momoshiki would probably trouble him because he wouldn't know about the drawback of Momoshiki's weak point. But there isn't a huge difference, obviously. 
The only real difference is 100% Kurama, and even then TL Naruto would've faired better than Hokage Naruto.


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## tkpirate (Sep 10, 2015)

Six paths Sage mode is Naruto's strongest form.
Adult Naruto with 100% Kyuubi BSM is almost as strong as Six paths Sage mode Naruto.


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