# [Essay] Shikkotsurin = the Crow's forest; How it links to the Uchiha and RS



## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

I know, a thread about the possibilities of what Shikkotsurin could be has already been made. But this here is an entirely different approach. In this thread, I will discuss the following things:

_The traits of crows / ravens
The Myth of Yatagarasu
The Relevance of the Tripedal Crow in Asia
How these link to the Shikkotsurin or Humid Bone Forest
Telltale clues in the Manga
Discussing the possibility of a Crow Mode_​
*A. The traits of crows / ravens*
1. Crows have a personality.
They are generally very peaceful birds and very intelligent. However, they also tend to be aggressive, playful and mocking. A crow is rarely forgotten once it sounds because of its harsh, powerful yet sweet tone.
2. Their Habitat.
Crows have originated in the tropical areas of the Old World, particularly Rainforests which have high _humidity._ Even today they still live primarily in forests where they eat basically anything.
3. Humidity and food.
Crows are scavengers and thus will eat _anything._ They are known for eating roadkill, rotten corpses, rotten food and they clean their food in water and humidity. They only eat flesh and leave the bones intact.

*B. The Myth of Yatagarasu*
1. Explanation of the term 'Yatagarasu'
Yatagarasu (kanji: 八咫烏) literally means "eight-span crow" or "eight-headed" crow. He is the guardian god of the sun and is generally depicted with three legs. Yatagarasu has various other appearances in other Asian countries, primarily in the "big three": China, Japan and Korea.
2. Japan.
Yatagarasu's role was small in the beginning, even though he was a deity. There are basically two steps of his legend:
- One is being a messenger / _spy_ for the other Kami; Yatagarasu's appearance was regarded as an omen for either something really good or bad.
His permanent appearance was through the _Koto Amatsukami_, namely Takagi no Kami and Amaterasu who sent Yatagarasu as a _savior_ to end Emperor Jimmu's war.
- The second step of his legend is that of a _hero_ and _savior._ There are two myths known in the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki:
In the first one it's Amaterasu who is threatened by a terrible monster with great authority. The people were crying for a savior to come and slay the beast. And so, Yatagarasu came and slew the beast. Amaterasu's life was saved by her guardian, the crow Yatagarasu.
The second one involves a war again. Kamo Taketsunimi no Mikoto, the founder of the Kamo-Agatanushi clan, saved the people by turning into a great crow and thus ending the war. The Kamo Ataganushi, which still exist today in Japan, were called the descendants of that kami.
Yatagarasu is still worshipped today in many Japanese shrines.
3. Korea
In Korea, that crow is called _Samjoko_ and is Korea's symbol of tremendous power, superior to both the _dragon_ and the _phoenix._ In the Goguryeo period, the Korean kings used that crow as a symbol of power.
4. China.
The crow has three names in China: _Sanzuwu_ (three-legged bird), _Yangwu_/_Jinwu_ (golden crow). It's the guardian of the sun and symbolizes light.

*C. The relevance of the Tripedal Crow in Asia*
1. Japan
As a Kami, Yatagarasu holds a tremendous importance in the Japanese Shinto culture. 
- Yatagarasu is the Emblem of both the Japanese Emperor and the National Football Team. Winners of the Emperor's Cup wear the Yatagarasu emblem.
- In Japan, Yatagarasu is considered a creed of courage and benevolence, seeing as Yatagarasu saved the Japanese people numerous times.
2. Korea
In Korea, the Samjoko is still considered a national emblem due to it's prestigeous power status. It symbolizes superiority, intelligence and millitary might.
3. China
The Sanzuwu was THE Emblem of the Chinese empire. It was everywhere: In the palace, on imperial garnments and there were even Twelve Medallions in the Imperial Palace; Sanzuwu is one of them.
When the Chinese empire met with the Japanese, Chinese ambassadors brought the Japanese a dead crow with three legs. It's also held that the Chinese used the Sanzuwu as a totem, similar to the Romans' SPQR.

So all in all, the Tripedal Crow is a symbol of _power._

*D. How all this links to Shikkotsurin = Crow's land*
Shikkotsurin literally means 'Humid Bone Forest'. Let's break that term apart and apply what we have learned about crows so far:
Humid
The origin of crows is the Rainforest with high _humidity._ Crows wash their prey in water before eating it.
Bone
Crows are scavengers, eating corpses and decay. Of all flesh they eat, they leave _bones_ behind.
Forest
The origin of crows is the _forest_. Even today, most crows and corvids live in forests and prey on insects and flesh.

*E. Telltale clues in the Manga*
Itachi.
- Itachi heavily links with crows, death and decay. Wherever he goes, death follows.
- He was a _messenger/spy_ for Konoha; his primary reason for joining Akatsuki.
- In the databook, Itachi is regarded as a _true hero_ for his sacrifice.
- Itachi was - and still is - an emblem of power and intelligence, similar to all the crows in the myth.
- He was guiding Naruto and now is guiding Sasuke in a way.
- Itachi was freed through a Jutsu called _Koto Amatsukami_. The same Koto Amatsukami in the myth that marked Yatagarasu's hero stage, ending many wars.
Sasuke
- Sasuke is not depicted as a hawk at all. Kishimoto depicts him as a _Karasu Tengu_, a _crow_ demon.
- He used the vision of Karasu Bunshin in the Danzo fight.
- It is said that Sasuke will adapt _Itachi's_ things once he is saved, inculding all his crow traits.
- The hawk seems to hold no general importance anymore, but the crow always had massive importance through Sasuke as well.
Susanoo
- Susanoo's current theme seems to be _bones_ only, no flesh at all. In fact, it is Susanoo's true form before mastering the next stages.

*F. Discussing the possibility of a Crow Mode*
- The crow has massive mythological importance; it's perhaps _the_ most important Kami after Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo.
- Three mythological places are said to exist in the Kojiki. In the Naruto manga they are the following: 
-> _Myobokuzan_, the Toad Mountain - Naruto's SM
-> _Ryuchido_, the Dragon's Nest - Kabuto's SM
-> _Shikkokutsurin_, the forest that is (possibly) the den of the crows - Possible Tengu/Crow mode​- The Crow mode / Tengu mode might be the counterpart to the Sage Mode which is equally powerful. It is theorised that SM belongs to the Younger Son of Rikudou; Likewise, Crow mode belongs to the Elder Son. 
- Tengu, particularly Karasu Tengu, in Japanese mythology are teachers of _Ninjutsu_, the human arts. Rikudou Sennin is regarded as the founder of Ninjutsu, marking the advent of Shinobi.
Since RS had two sons with two different natures, the means of gaining SM and the crow mode could be different:
-> SM relies on natural energy and a calm balance. You must have a suitable _body._
-> Crow mode could rely on the purity of extreme emotions, mainly rage, righteousness and the desire to protect. the Elder Son inherited the eyes, so the key of gaining Crow mode could be through the _eyes_.
The Will of Koto Amatsukami made Kamo Taketsunimi no Mikoto a savior through turning to Yatagarasu. He was regarded a savior to this very day.
Itachi wanted Sasuke to be a savior and a hero known to all.​- Both Itachi and Sasuke are depicted as crows; the former more than the latter. Sasuke is the image of Karasu Tengu while Itachi is the image of Yatagarasu.
- Crows mark the dragon's defeat. Taketsunimi's Yatagarasu turning marked his victory. Itachi could unlock that crow mode through extreme distress done by Kabuto to Sasuke, thus slaying the dragon brutally as vengeance.
Sasuke could unlock it when his hatred against Konoha peaks ultimately.

So, there you have it. My essay. 

Discuss


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## Marsala (Mar 23, 2012)

Sage Mode Itachi would unleash an unbelievable shitstorm.


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Sage Mode Itachi would unleash an unbelievable shitstorm.



It could be SM, but also an entirely different mode. Think of Crow Mode as Super Saiyan: It's unlocked through the purity of rage 
Only.. Itachi would get wings and a lot of fur. Sasuke too.


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## Marsala (Mar 23, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> It could be SM, but also an entirely different mode. Think of Crow Mode as Super Saiyan: It's unlocked through the purity of rage
> Only.. Itachi would get wings and a lot of fur. Sasuke too.



No, it will be another version of Sage Mode. The three locations are places where the secrets of Sage Mode are kept.

It would probably interact with Susano'o in surprising ways, though; maybe it would become a giant flaming black firebird?


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## DragonOfChoas (Mar 23, 2012)

NF would explode if that were to happen.


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

Marsala said:


> No, it will be another version of Sage Mode. The three locations are places where the secrets of Sage Mode are kept.
> 
> It would probably interact with Susano'o in surprising ways, though; maybe it would become a giant flaming black firebird?



Working with Susanoo could also mean unleashing the power of all three weapons individually. 

Also, consider how crows unleash their true power through rage; when you piss of a crow, you're fucked.
Sasuke's rage made his Susanoo more powerful. Now it's Itachi's turn.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 23, 2012)

That makes for an interesting fanfic, you should write it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2012)

...why do you even want Itachi to get MORE FUCKING BROKEN and show he is more of a Mary Sue than he actually is already?!

Not only that, Itachi doesn't meet the primary requirement for Sage Mode or any equivalent. He lacks the chakra and stamina reserves which are crucial for it.


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## Seraphiel (Mar 23, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *...why do you even want Itachi to get MORE FUCKING BROKEN and show he is more of a Mary Sue than he actually is already?!*
> 
> Not only that, Itachi doesn't meet the primary requirement for Sage Mode or any equivalent. He lacks the chakra and stamina reserves which are crucial for it.



Because he needs to get on Minato's mega sue level?


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> What the fuck am I reading? Are you just trolling or you just have no idea of what are you talking about?
> 
> You are aware that distress is exactly the contrary of what is requried to enter Sage Mode right?



Someone didn't read the OP. 




Yachiru said:


> Since RS had two sons with two different natures, *the means of gaining SM and the crow mode could be different*:
> -> SM relies on natural energy and a calm balance. You must have a suitable body.
> -> Crow mode could rely on the purity of extreme emotions, mainly rage, righteousness and the desire to protect. the Elder Son inherited the eyes, so the key of gaining Crow mode could be through the eyes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> Because he needs to get on Minato's mega sue level?


Minato's dead, and he hasn't came back to the stage. Any argument that Minato is a Sue is false since the story doesn't bend over backwards every time he appears. When Itachi appears, it does. It even went so far to give him a means of breaking Edo Tensei control.


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## OneHitKill (Mar 23, 2012)

Super Itachi...:sanji

This shit makes perfect sense 

Itachi was getting angry when Kabuto was targeting the Sauce now he is going to bust out Crow Mode :sanji


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> What the fuck am I reading? Are you just trolling or you just have no idea of what are you talking about?
> 
> You are aware that distress is exactly the contrary of what is requried to enter Sage Mode right?



Erm..  I never said that this crow mode would be another SM ._.
I merely suggested that this Crow/Tengu thing could be the Elder Son's mode ._.


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## T-Bag (Mar 23, 2012)

i would laugh


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## Jeαnne (Mar 23, 2012)

keep in mind, that if there is a crow sage mode, it will stand for tengu-mode , im all for it.


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> keep in mind, that if there is a crow sage mode, it will stand for tengu-mode , im all for it.



It will be a Tengu mode because all Tengus are _crows._


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## Jeαnne (Mar 23, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> It will be a Tengu mode because all Tengus are _crows._


yeah the crow image is the strongest to represent tengus.

oh god, we are so close to the truth now, its insane...

i have been waiting for the answers about the secrets written in the uchiha tablet, it must be this, must be...


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## DemonBorn4569 (Mar 23, 2012)

Shikkotsurin is most likely inhabited by slugs but yea, nice fanfic material dude.


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> yeah the crow image is the strongest to represent tengus.
> 
> oh god, we are so close to the truth now, its insane...
> 
> i have been waiting for the answers about the secrets written in the uchiha tablet, it must be this, must be...



Imagine Itachi unleashes that crow mode if Kabuto harms Sasuke greatly and he didn't even know that this same crow mode was written on the Uchiha tablet 

Interestingly, notice how it speaks about a god _turning_ into a crow to end a war.. Crow mode was in Japanese mythology all along ._.
Since Sasuke and Itachi are the only Uchiha depicted as crows (Karasu Tengu and Yatagarasu), they both will have this crow mode ._.


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## DemonBorn4569 (Mar 23, 2012)

I think it'd be better if the crow were represented by the Juubi; a cycloptic, humanoid, crow-headed, 10-tailed beast... much more badass than a forest full of bird shit. :/


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## Jeαnne (Mar 23, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Imagine Itachi unleashes that crow mode if Kabuto harms Sasuke greatly and he didn't even know that this same crow mode was written on the Uchiha tablet
> 
> Interestingly, notice how it speaks about a god _turning_ into a crow to end a war.. Crow mode was in Japanese mythology all along ._.
> Since Sasuke and Itachi are the only Uchiha depicted as crows (Karasu Tengu and Yatagarasu), they both will have this crow mode ._.




perhaps not only sasuke and itachi, perhaps somebody way before had it .



DemonBorn4569 said:


> I think it'd be better if the crow were represented by the Juubi; a cycloptic, humanoid, crow-headed, 10-tailed beast... much more badass than a forest full of bird shit. :/


what about it be the origin of rikudou's sage mode? would be badass too.


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## shyakugaun (Mar 23, 2012)

Naruto Fans/Uchiha Haters are shitting themselves


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## Yachiru (Mar 23, 2012)

DemonBorn4569 said:


> I think it'd be better if the crow were represented by the Juubi; a cycloptic, humanoid, crow-headed, 10-tailed beast... much more badass than a forest full of bird shit. :/



The very meaning of Shikkotsurin suggests that this has nothing to do with slugs at all ._. A humid bone forest sounds more like a place of death and decay than a habitat for slugs ._.

I mentioned in the OP how crows eat rotten things and leave the bones behind and how they are in humidity and forests ._.

And besides, a 'Slug Mode' would be entirely pointless since a) Tsunade will die and b) Sakura is irrelevant to the whole RS thing.

Crows is more like it because not only is the crow the strongest image of Tengu - the teachers of Ninjutsu - but it also links heavily to the Uchiha.



Jeαnne said:


> perhaps not only sasuke and itachi, perhaps somebody way before had it .



RS is likely to have had this Tengu mode because he is depicted as a Tengu


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## DemonBorn4569 (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> The very meaning of Shikkotsurin suggests that this has nothing to do with slugs at all ._. A humid bone forest sounds more like a place of death and decay than a habitat for slugs ._.
> 
> I mentioned in the OP how crows eat rotten things and leave the bones behind and how they are in humidity and forests ._.
> 
> ...




Except that the toad-snake-slug teacher/student connection is already set. 

Jiraiya's imperfect toad sage mode was perfected by his student Naruto, Orochimaru sought out Shikkotsurin to achieve snake/dragon sage mode he fell short, Kabuto his student surpassed him becoming the dragon, and while all this is coming to light Tsunade is in the midst of a fight with True Madara, perfect time to reveal a slug mode if my theory is correct.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

DemonBorn4569 said:


> Except that the toad-snake-slug teacher/student connection is already set.
> 
> Jiraiya's imperfect toad sage mode was perfect by his student Naruto, Orochimaru sought out Shikkotsurin to achieve snake/dragon sage mode he fell short, Kabuto his student surpassed him becoming the dragon, and while all this is coming to light Tsunade is in the midst of a fight with True Madara, perfect time to reveal a slug mode if my theory is correct.



The toad-snake-slug connection was primarily for the main students of the three Sannin, which are Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura. And Sakura is not getting to perfect a slug mode.

That connection was broken when Sasuke abandoned the snake and got the hawk. 

The crow has massive mythological importance and a humid bone forest doesn't suggest a slug's habitat. Shikkotsurin is the place where the crows reside and what is considered the _origins_ of RS in my theory.


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## DemonBorn4569 (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> The toad-snake-slug connection was primarily for the main students of the three Sannin, which are Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura. And Sakura is not getting to perfect a slug mode.
> 
> That connection was broken when Sasuke abandoned the snake and got the hawk.
> 
> The crow has massive mythological importance and a humid bone forest doesn't suggest a slug's habitat. Shikkotsurin is the place where the crows reside and what is considered the _origins_ of RS in my theory.



Hopefully we find out soon and this isn't dragged out or completely forgotten, even if not tied to RS I really hope Kishi decides to show us Shikktsurin and more of Ryuchi Cave I want more info other than hey Orochimaru found it, so did Kabuto... they learned Sage mode. -__-


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> RS is likely to have had this Tengu mode because he is depicted as a Tengu



exacly, i have been pointing this out and people ignore:

there is a secret tablet, in the nakano temple, there hides the secrets of rikudou sennin, what probably made him turn into a god, would it be the secrets of sage mode? 


because we cant forget: rikudou left his chakras to the elder brother, people only say eyes, and assume that who got the body got the chakra, but no, the sage chakra was left for the elder, as well as his mind power, thats why uchihas use genjutsu and all. So we could assume that something other than the eyes was left for him, and the younger brother might have something equivalent. I would not be surprised if the tengu mode is actually the origin of the sharingan, or even something more. Itachi kept saying, "grant sasuke true power", and now he shows knowledge about this?...it could be that its in their own bloodline, thats why he wanted to take the cursed seal out, it was limiting sasuke, would be insane. "When you have the same eyes as me, come and find me." Is sasuke just insane for bringing this up again? Perhaps not.

Also, Madara's words to Kabuto: "you bastard, the secrets of my _*body*_, even you who couldnt read the tablet, you unlocked them?"

How much of it was unlocked, is the true question.

Because perhaps Kabuto doesnt know of the existence of the "mount kurama"? Shikkotsurin could be related to slugs, but it doesnt change the fact that there are enough hints that point for at least one other "mode" relate to birds, kishi told us with the capes, he always does, right?  I personally think that its in their own bloodline, Itachi would have awaked it, and it could explain his disease, and now so will Sasuke, what could have been Itachi's plan all along.


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## sadino (Mar 24, 2012)

I was expecting bullcrap and wank,but you surprised me Op,that was a cool read for KL standards.

But don't you think Susano'o already represents the Tengu too much?What each character represents along with the myths seems factual but the Tengu mode was too much of a stretch,props for the imagination tough.

A little correction about the elder brother power.Chakra comes from both spiritual and physical energy so in reality we have the Senju with strong physical energy chakra and the Uchiha with strong mental energy chakra.In that regard i think Susano is enough of a representation for that actually we could think off the MS technics as smaller applications of the incomplete Izanagi.

And we have aready confirmed that beyond the sharingan is the rinnegan so...


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## Lews Therin Telamon (Mar 24, 2012)

I was expecting bullcrap and wank. What I got was bullcrap and wank.

Seriously, get a grip. "Humid bone forest" fits perfectly with slugs. They need a humid environment to survive, and the bones are probably what's left of their victims.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 24, 2012)

Not to mention Itachi doesn't even HAVE the stamina for Sage Mode or any variant, nor does Sasuke. Stop with the Uchiha wank.


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## eyeknockout (Mar 24, 2012)

seems possible and interesting. only time will tell though.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> I know, a thread about the possibilities of what Shikkotsurin could be has already been made. But this here is an entirely different approach. In this thread, I will discuss the following things:
> 
> _The traits of crows / ravens
> The Myth of Yatagarasu
> ...



Itachi cannot have SM his stamina is too low for SM
Orochimaru have 3.5 of stamina and it said his body was too weak for SM
Itachi have 2.5 of stamina and he can have SM??? Keep dreaming

This is sasuke fight to improve his EMS and itachi is at the defensive anyway he already showed us what capable he is


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## Saru (Mar 24, 2012)

JCRUYFF said:


> Itachi cannot have SM his stamina is too low for SM
> Orochimaru have 3.5 of stamina and it said his body was too weak for SM
> Itachi have 2.5 of stamina and he can have SM??? Keep dreaming
> 
> This is sasuke fight to improve his EMS and itachi is at the defensive anyway he already showed us what capable he is





There was nothing about Itachi gaining Sage Mode in what you _*quoted*_.

Second time that's been pointed out smh KL


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## vered (Mar 24, 2012)

very interesting theory and as Jeanne posted with the pic of the temple it might explain the drawing at the side of the Nakano temple which suppose  to depict RS but as a tengu.

perhaps he literally had a physical mode or the 3rd way of SM which was related to the crows or birds.i have hard time believing Tsunade had a slug mode and her not using it against an opponent like Madara where they need to go all out.


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 24, 2012)

Itachi*+* ?

You just want to watch the whole world burn.


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## RoseWhirlpool (Mar 24, 2012)

Humid Bone Forest

Slugs like humidity.  Sounds like slugs.

Crows/hawks should be in like in the high mountains or something.


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## Federer (Mar 24, 2012)

Either slugs or crows.

But considering that Kishimoto doesn't make characters who lack a penis shine that much, it's probably crows.

It would also perhaps explain Itachi's know how about SM.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru, awesome read. Good compilation. Reps for that.

Not sure If I agree though. Itachi with sage mode would be beyond broken. He'd OHKO RS with a falcon punch. And alot of people in NF would rage as a result and delete accounts.
I don't want it to happen


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## PDQ (Mar 24, 2012)

vered said:


> i have hard time believing Tsunade had a slug mode and her not using it against an opponent like Madara where they need to go all out.


Because she's used Katsuyu?
Also, have you seen how many people have "needed to go all out" fight for a long time before they use their trump card?
Read this:



Yachiru said:


> The toad-snake-slug connection was primarily for the main students of the three Sannin, which are Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura. And Sakura is not getting to perfect a slug mode.
> 
> That connection was broken when Sasuke abandoned the snake and got the hawk.


The Toad Snake Slug connection was primarily for the Sannin *themselves*, not Team 7.  In Jiraiya Gōketsu Monogatari, Jiraiya had the Toad magic, Tsunade had the Slug magic, and Orochimaru had the snake magic.  Naruto rarely summoned frogs(in fact, he's more fox-like), Sasuke never became as snake-like as Orochimaru(His Raiton was from Kakashi and his CS2 was more birdlike), and Sakura never summoned slugs, so their connection wasn't nearly as strong to the animals.
Hell, there's even the Rock paper scissors variant, Sansukumi, that exists in Japan that has Frog, Snake, Slug.
That trio of animals predated and extends *far* beyond Team 7.  Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura were the potential inheritors, but we see Kabuto can easily replace Sasuke because he's still a follower of Orochimaru who wanted to surpass him.  We also see that despite Naruto rarely using summons pre-Sage Mode training, he learned Sage Mode just fine, so Sakura has just as much potential.


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## jacamo (Mar 24, 2012)

awesome read

its plausible... but who knows, Kishi may decide to never revisit this



Yachiru said:


> And besides, a 'Slug Mode' would be entirely pointless since a) Tsunade will die and b) Sakura is irrelevant to the whole RS thing.



well played 


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U5g6qzlFzQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## HawkMan (Mar 24, 2012)

I know the whole Snake Sage gets the correlation ideas running, but I highly doubt this will occur considering Itachi's fragile characterization.

It's like Chouji having butterfly mode and then creating a bunch of threads saying; Kiba has a Super-fart, Neiji has a special Hyuuga mode, Ino has an enhanced mind-switching jutsu, the bug guy has developed new super-bugs that can use space/time jutsus-all from Chouji's butterfly mode. 

It happens, you see something and think:

_Oh, I wonder if my favorite character also has something like that, let me spend hours trying to figure something similar. _​_
_
Maybe he does, he probably doesn't.


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## spiritmight (Mar 24, 2012)

HawkMan said:


> I know the whole Snake Sage gets the correlation ideas running, but I highly doubt this will occur considering Itachi's fragile characterization.
> 
> It's like Chouji having butterfly mode and then creating a bunch of threads saying; Kiba has a Super-fart, Neiji has a special Hyuuga mode, Ino has an enhanced mind-switching jutsu, the bug guy has developed new super-bugs that can use space/time jutsus-all from Chouji's butterfly mode.
> 
> ...



Basically an excellent explanation for every hare-brained theory posted on this forum


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## Orochibuto (Mar 24, 2012)

shyakugaun said:


> Naruto Fans/Uchiha Haters are shitting themselves



How should we shit ourselves over a fanfic with ZERO foreshadowing or basis?

On that logic then I would write a fanfic and post it on the forum on how Naruto and Kabuto are going to have the power to blow up the universe with a finger and Uchihafans would shit themselves.


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## BringerOfCarnage (Mar 24, 2012)

Awesome essay; you've done a lot of research...
+reps.

As for the credibility, I'm not exactly sure.

On one hand, you put up a lot of good points, and the theory is supported by the manga and Kishi's love for symbolism.
On the other hand, it seems a bit awkward if a new mode is suddenly popped out,.so soon after DM.
 It'd steal Kabuto's Thunder!


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## Khazzar (Mar 24, 2012)

The thing is that Uchiha simply dont need such a thing,as their most powerful mode is keeping their Susano'o up,without penalty and strain. Not to mention they can use all their jutsu and doujutsu while using Susano'o.

Uchiha's are no longer dependant on speed and body durability that Sage mode grants. Just look at Madara. All he needed is to awaken the Rin'negan,already he is almost perfect Shinobi.
So when Sage powers are concerned,i belive Kishi will leave it for Naruto and Kabuto,not for either of the Uchiha's. The reason for this is simple - The crow power is unique to ITachi who already died and won't develop any more. Sasuke does not use nor does he have any connection to the crows except through his brother. He has a hawk contract.

What's next - Hawk/Eagle Sage mode?


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## tnorbo (Mar 24, 2012)

the uchiha represent the power of the eyes, why would they get the ultimate body power-up


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## Seph (Mar 24, 2012)

I think I'd post a vid of myself masturbating if this happened.


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## bearzerger (Mar 24, 2012)

No, no and three times no. Itachi and the Uchiha have nothing to do with sage mode. Sage Mode is the power of the body. The Uchiha have no need of another pendant to Sage Mode as long as they have the Mangekyou Sharingan. MS gives you the haxxed eyes and SM gives you the haxxed body. They balance each other out.

Also your attempts to link Shikkotsurin to Yatagarasu are pulled out of thin air at best. So far there is nothing concrete which links Shikkotsurin to any myth the main argument why most people think it's related to the slugs is because of how Kishi has made a point to put the three Sannin and their summons on the same level and that Kabuto mentioned Myoubokuzan, Ryuuichidou and Shikkotsurin in one breath. Snake and frog have never been linked to anything other than slug.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 24, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> No, no and three times no. Itachi and the Uchiha have nothing to do with sage mode. Sage Mode is the power of the body. The Uchiha have no need of another pendant to Sage Mode as long as they have the Mangekyou Sharingan. MS gives you the haxxed eyes and SM gives you the haxxed body. They balance each other out.
> 
> Also your attempts to link Shikkotsurin to Yatagarasu are pulled out of thin air at best. So far there is nothing concrete which links Shikkotsurin to any myth the main argument why most people think it's related to the slugs is because of how Kishi has made a point to put the three Sannin and their summons on the same level and that Kabuto mentioned Myoubokuzan, Ryuuichidou and Shikkotsurin in one breath. Snake and frog have never been linked to anything other than slug.



This should have ended the thread


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## auem (Mar 24, 2012)

lol...i stopped at habitat......:rofl


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## Mister (Mar 24, 2012)

Crow mode isn't likely to happen because Itachi's chakra capacity is too low, comparable to the likes of Hinata and Kurenai. 

I think this theory relies too heavily on mythology; Kishimoto only goes loosely by mythology.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Another Itachi wank thread. 

Not only a wank thread, but mega bullshit when it comes to Sasuke.

Does the bird Sasuke is sitting on look like a crow to you? 

Kami no Shisha

Does his summon look like a crow to you? 

I wonder how do you explain to yourself the dead crow in the cave. But no need to answer this - as sign of Itachi's victory doubtless.


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## Mister (Mar 24, 2012)

HawkMan said:


> I know the whole Snake Sage gets the correlation ideas running, but I highly doubt this will occur considering Itachi's fragile characterization.
> 
> It's like Chouji having butterfly mode and then creating a bunch of threads saying; Kiba has a Super-fart, Neiji has a special Hyuuga mode, Ino has an enhanced mind-switching jutsu, the bug guy has developed new super-bugs that can use space/time jutsus-all from Chouji's butterfly mode.
> 
> ...





bearzerger said:


> Also your attempts to link Shikkotsurin to Yatagarasu are pulled out of thin air at best. So far there is nothing concrete which links Shikkotsurin to any myth the main argument why most people think it's related to the slugs is because of how Kishi has made a point to put the three Sannin and their summons on the same level and that Kabuto mentioned Myoubokuzan, Ryuuichidou and Shikkotsurin in one breath. Snake and frog have never been linked to anything other than slug.



I agree with these.


Furthermore there is one very important detail: Itachi's chakra capacity is lower than Jiraiya- lower than even Orochimaru. He's on the same tile as Hinata and Kurenai where chakra capacity is concerned.

If he ever tried to gain Sage Mode from what we know, he'd turn into stone right away.
This is quite credible as Kabuto mentions the use of natural energy: natural energy turns people into stone if they fail, more so if they have appalling chakra capacities. Itachi, the black sheep of a clan with respectable stamina, fits the latter category.


That and it seems this Crow Mode is kind of forced in response to Itachi being more outmatched than people expected. Much like how he needed back up to take a crippled shinobi; how he ran away from an EMS user he was supposedly going to school - using crows on someone he knows has Chidori Nagashi (genius?) - and how he was meant to one panel Kabuto with no help from Sasuke. 

He'll end Edo Tensei, but he's probably going to look inferior to another max tier shinobi because he needs such massive back up.


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## Lews Therin Telamon (Mar 24, 2012)

The reason that Itachi's got only 2.5 points in stamina is because of his illness. It should be obvious to all of you.

Just wanted to point that out.


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## Mister (Mar 24, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> The reason that Itachi's got only 2.5 points in stamina is because of his illness. It should be obvious to all of you.
> 
> Just wanted to point that out.



Unlikely because Zetsu never complained about his chakra capacity. 

Kimimaro got a 4.5 points in stamina, and he was ill... what about that?


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## PoinT_BlanK (Mar 24, 2012)

I repped for the effort, but to be honest, I'm not sure about how I'd feel if said were to happen..

I don't see it happening either way.


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## ? (Mar 24, 2012)

lol, no                 .


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## Lews Therin Telamon (Mar 24, 2012)

Mister said:


> Kimimaro got a 4.5 points in stamina, and he was ill... what about that?


Touch?. I really can't argue with that, although their illnesses might have affected them differently.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

sadino said:


> I was expecting bullcrap and wank,but you surprised me Op,that was a cool read for KL standards.
> 
> But don't you think Susano'o already represents the Tengu too much?What each character represents along with the myths seems factual but the Tengu mode was too much of a stretch,props for the imagination tough.
> 
> ...



The thing is, that Tengu are the strongest demon creatures in Japanese mythology and the Karasu Tengu (the crow Tengu) is the strongest image in that theme. Also, RS seems to be depicted as a Tengu which would make sense considering the Tengu taught humans _Ninjutsu._



RoseWhirlpool said:


> Humid Bone Forest
> 
> Slugs like humidity.  Sounds like slugs.
> 
> Crows/hawks should be in like in the high mountains or something.



Crows live in forests, not mountains. They also originated from humid areas, such as the rainforest.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yachiru, awesome read. Good compilation. Reps for that.
> 
> Not sure If I agree though. Itachi with sage mode would be beyond broken. He'd OHKO RS with a falcon punch. And alot of people in NF would rage as a result and delete accounts.
> I don't want it to happen



Armageddon would look like a walk in the fuckin park compared to the shitstorm that would ensue on NF.



tnorbo said:


> the uchiha represent the power of the eyes, why would they get the ultimate body power-up



RS himself was depicted as a Tengu. Sasuke is depicted as a Karasu Tengu and Susanoo is a Tengu as well. 
This is why I said that Tengu mode relies on the _eyes_.



bearzerger said:


> No, no and three times no. Itachi and the Uchiha have nothing to do with sage mode. Sage Mode is the power of the body. The Uchiha have no need of another pendant to Sage Mode as long as they have the Mangekyou Sharingan. MS gives you the haxxed eyes and SM gives you the haxxed body. They balance each other out.
> 
> Also your attempts to link Shikkotsurin to Yatagarasu are pulled out of thin air at best. So far there is nothing concrete which links Shikkotsurin to any myth the main argument why most people think it's related to the slugs is because of how Kishi has made a point to put the three Sannin and their summons on the same level and that Kabuto mentioned Myoubokuzan, Ryuuichidou and Shikkotsurin in one breath. Snake and frog have never been linked to anything other than slug.



I already said numerous times that this Tengu mode is not SM. It is the third mode from the RS origins; and since crows are the strongest image with Tengu and the remaining Uchiha are represented predominately by crows, it is likely that this Tengu mode is linked to the Uchiha only.



Mister said:


> Crow mode isn't likely to happen because Itachi's chakra capacity is too low, comparable to the likes of Hinata and Kurenai.
> 
> I think this theory relies too heavily on mythology; Kishimoto only goes loosely by mythology.



Loosely on unpopular mythology. However, as we know, the Koto Amatsukami, Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu/Susanoo and the Yatagarasu are the most famous myths in Japanese mythology.

And the crow is the strongest animal in Japanese history.



Last Rose of Summer said:


> Another Itachi wank thread.
> 
> Not only a wank thread, but mega bullshit when it comes to Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Fail. Look at Sasuke himself, his attire and his wings. Yes, it's the depiction of a _Karasu Tengu_. Sasuke's and Itachi's Susanoo look like Karasu Tengu. Crows. The summon Sasuke sits on is irrelevant.

And the dead crow could be both brothers in trouble which is likely to happen.
It could also be a sign of peace since the Chinese empire brought the Japanese emperor a dead crow with three legs, which was a major sign of peace between both empires.


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## MSAL (Mar 24, 2012)

What I do find astounding is that regardless of the op's validity, the op has made a clear argument with some compelling evidence and she has obviously reserched the area well, yet some people who dislike Uchiha/Itachi cannot be mature enough to at least answer the op in a like for like manner.

The KL has fallen low very recently.


In regards to the op, I think it may be stretching a little bit, but you do make a lor of vlid point, and the Tengu that have appeared to teach people have been mostly in the form of Karasu Tengu. Whilst it does not mean a "crow sage mode" it does mean that the Uchiha are indefinitely linked to the Corvid famiy, and there is nothing to say that some sort of higher form related to the crow (more so than the appearence of Susano'o) cannot take shape.  I will give a longer analysis at a later time.

+reps for the effort of the op though.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

MSAL said:


> What I do find astounding is that regardless of the op's validity, the op has made a clear argument with some compelling evidence and she has obviously reserched the area well, yet some people who dislike Uchiha/Itachi cannot be mature enough to at least answer the op in a like for like manner.
> 
> The KL has fallen low very recently.
> 
> ...



It's not SM at all, but rather some sort of Tengu mode. 


Also get this:

Crows are a symbol of *power*. It's always been like that. Numerous Asian empires used the crow as their totem.

RS was depicted as a Karasu Tengu in the Uchiha tablet. Karasu Tengu teach Ninjutsu. RS did the same.

The Sharingan links to Karasu Tengu through Susanoo. Sasuke is depicted as a Karasu Tengu. Itachi is a crow as well. 

And most importantly.. what did the elder son want? Peace through means of _power_.

This is how we know that the two remaining Uchiha are linked to the corvids.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2012)

You put some time into this and what not, but I feel the idea of Itachi having a SM comes from people not wanting to accept that Jiraiya & to a lesser extent Orochimaru had a power that could rival Itachi's ocular power or MS, therefore people wish to believe that Itachi also has a SM once again justifying him being far above the Sannin even when ill. 

However if we look at SM, it does not make much sense for Itachi or Sasuke to get a SM. SM is a power that can be achieved due to ones strength of body and therefore it makes sense for it to be a power that Kabuto, Orochimaru, Naruto, & Jiraiya have, considering both Naruto and Jiraiya have very strong bodies and large Stamina capacities, while Kabuto and Orochimaru were constantly experimenting to make their bodies strong or create the perfect vessel body for themselves. Uchiha on the other hand have strength in their mind and eyes, while their bodies tend to range from average in strength to being weaker than most due to being weakened by their eyes over time. So SM would not fit them at all.

It would also not do anything for the story line to have Itachi or Sasuke have a SM, since they already have an equivalent powers due to the strength of their mind and eyes this being their Mangekyo Techs. 

Now maybe there could be a Crow Sage or Crow Tengu at Shikkotsurin, but he would no teach them a SM or a Crow mode of any kind, he'd would teach them something that has to do with their ocular power and mental power, I.E. he'd probably teach them another Dojutsu ability or technique. However I really don't think any Uchiha needs a master, because they tend to just master their eye techs in battle. And since Kishi has just been having the Uchiha master their eye techs in battle, I don't see why he would bother to waste time having Sasuke travel to Shikkotsurin to learn an eye tech, when he has no problem just allowing Sasuke to master his techs throughout battle.

It would make more sense if Shikkotsurin was the land of the Slug Sage, Kyuuga Clan Sage, or some other unknown Sage which will teach Naruto some other body related skill, such as a Sage that Hashirama trained with.


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## Reddan (Mar 24, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You put some time into this and what not, but I feel the idea of Itachi having a SM comes from people not wanting to accept that Jiraiya & to a lesser extent Orochimaru had a power that could rival Itachi's ocular power or MS, therefore people wish to believe that Itachi also has a SM once again justifying him being far above the Sannin even when ill.


Not really, because I think everyone should have realised by now that a perfect SM=MS. The reasons Jiraiya and Orochimaru are below the likes of SM Naruto, Itachi and MS Sasuke is that they never perfected the jutsu. The other three are around the same level. 

I only think Itachi is slightly stronger than Naruto and MS Sasuke, because he managed to gain the legendary weapons from some ancient site.


> However if we look at SM, it does not make much sense for Itachi or Sasuke to get a SM. SM is a power that can be achieved due to ones strength of body and therefore it makes sense for it to be a power that Kabuto, Orochimaru, Naruto, & Jiraiya have, considering both Naruto and Jiraiya have very strong bodies and large Stamina capacities, while Kabuto and Orochimaru were constantly experimenting to make their bodies strong or create the perfect vessel body for themselves. Uchiha on the other hand have strength in their mind and eyes, while their bodies tend to range from average in strength to being weaker than most due to being weakened by their eyes over time. So SM would not fit them at all.


That's the thing you ignore. Sasuke and Kimimaro were the only ones capable of handling and mastering the strongest version of CS2. Sasuke at the very least has a body capable of using SM. Whether he ever learns it is a different matter.

Orochimaru wanted to take over a body that could learn SM. Hence why Kimimaro and Sasuke were the only two worthy.


> It would also not do anything for the story line to have Itachi or Sasuke have a SM, since they already have an equivalent powers due to the strength of their mind and eyes this being their Mangekyo Techs.


It would add to the story when the truth about Sasuke and Itachi is revealed.


> Now maybe there could be a Crow Sage or Crow Tengu at Shikkotsurin, but he would no teach them a SM or a Crow mode of any kind, he'd would teach them something that has to do with their ocular power and mental power, I.E. he'd probably teach them another Dojutsu ability or technique. However I really don't think any Uchiha needs a master, because they tend to just master their eye techs in battle. And since Kishi has just been having the Uchiha master their eye techs in battle, I don't see why he would bother to waste time having Sasuke travel to Shikkotsurin to learn an eye tech, when he has no problem just allowing Sasuke to master his techs throughout battle.


Shikkotsurin is almost certainly the place for Slugs. Just think about all we have learnt. Sannin=Equal. Sannins summons=Equal. Now three equally famous places, whilst Tsunade is having her defining battle. 

However, the point remains Itachi likely got his legendary weapons from some ancient place.
[QUOTE
It would make more sense if Shikkotsurin was the land of the Slug Sage, Kyuuga Clan Sage, or some other unknown Sage which will teach Naruto some other body related skill, su]ch as a Sage that Hashirama trained with.[/QUOTE]

Shikkotosurin is very likely to be the slug place. In fact there is even a chance that the Kyuga Clan have some association with them. The Slugs living without bones, with the Kyuga the masters of bones. 

Anyway if Tsunade does show a version of SM learnt from the slugs, then I think Itachi may indeed reveal a fourth more legendary place.


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## ch1p (Mar 24, 2012)

Crow mode is not needed. Itachi is already broken as he is and Sasuke is getting there. Stacking shit on either of them doesn't make a difference whatsoever. No Crow / Hawk mode for either of them. But good post nevertheless.



PDQ said:


> Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura were the potential inheritors, but we see *Kabuto can easily replace Sasuke because he's still a follower of Orochimaru who wanted to surpass him*.



I've been warming up to the idea lately.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Mar 24, 2012)

+Rep. You know what, I'm so sure Yachiru's right, that I'll make a bet with the first person willing.

Terms:

- If Itachi and/or Sasuke reveal a crow mode before the end of their fight with Kabuto, I win
- If the above condition is not met, whomever bet against me wins
- Loser gets a 1 week ban from NF (or must wear a sig of the winner's choice for two weeks if the mods are unwilling to ban the loser)



Turrin said:


> You put some time into this and what not, but I feel the idea of Itachi having a SM comes from people not wanting to accept that Jiraiya & to a lesser extent Orochimaru had a power that could rival Itachi's ocular power or MS, therefore people wish to believe that Itachi also has a SM once again justifying him being far above the Sannin even when ill.
> 
> However if we look at SM, it does not make much sense for Itachi or Sasuke to get a SM. SM is a power that can be achieved due to ones strength of body and therefore it makes sense for it to be a power that Kabuto, Orochimaru, Naruto, & Jiraiya have, considering both Naruto and Jiraiya have very strong bodies and large Stamina capacities, while Kabuto and Orochimaru were constantly experimenting to make their bodies strong or create the perfect vessel body for themselves. Uchiha on the other hand have strength in their mind and eyes, while their bodies tend to range from average in strength to being weaker than most due to being weakened by their eyes over time. So SM would not fit them at all.
> 
> ...



What's the kyuuga clan (did you mean Hyuuga)? Also, people have clarified repeatedly (including Yachiru herself) that crow mode is not necessarily sage mode.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Turrin and ardenad mean the Kaguya clan, the clan with the Shitsumyaku kekkei genkai. 
There's one problem: The Kaguya clan is extinct, Kimimaro was the only survivor. So no Kaguya sage. Besides, nothing links the Kaguya clan to slugs.


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## Reddan (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Turrin and ardenad mean the Kaguya clan, the clan with the Shitsumyaku kekkei genkai.
> There's one problem: The Kaguya clan is extinct, Kimimaro was the only survivor. So no Kaguya sage. Besides, nothing links the Kaguya clan to slugs.



Tsunade at this present moment is fighting. Could be a similar case to Jugo, Kabuto/Orochimaru and the snakes. Tsunade learnt SM from Snails, but Kimimaro's clan know some techniques from the snails.

If Itachi knows anything similar to Sage Mode it will not be from a place with equal respect to Frog and Snake place, it will be somewhere different.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2012)

arednad said:


> Not really, because I think everyone should have realised by now that a perfect SM=MS. The reasons Jiraiya and Orochimaru are below the likes of SM Naruto, Itachi and MS Sasuke is that they never perfected the jutsu. The other three are around the same level.


Here's what I think on the issue:




> I only think Itachi is slightly stronger than Naruto and MS Sasuke, because he managed to gain the legendary weapons from some ancient site.


I don't think Itachi found those weapons, I think they simply are the weapons he gained with his Susano'o, just like Sasuke has his Amaterasu sword.



> That's the thing you ignore. Sasuke and Kimimaro were the only ones capable of handling and mastering the strongest version of CS2. Sasuke at the very least has a body capable of using SM. Whether he ever learns it is a different matter.


Sasuke mastering CS does not mean he could master SM, CS is a knock off.



> Orochimaru wanted to take over a body that could learn SM. Hence why Kimimaro and Sasuke were the only two worthy.


Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body for his eyes, he most like wanted Senju Hashirama's powers not only for his Mokuton and what not, but also to enhance the strength of his body so he could learn SM.



> It would add to the story when the truth about Sasuke and Itachi is revealed.


Have no clue what your talking about.



> Shikkotsurin is almost certainly the place for Slugs. Just think about all we have learnt. Sannin=Equal. Sannins summons=Equal. Now three equally famous places, whilst Tsunade is having her defining battle.


I agree that this is most likely unless Kishi just wishes to troll Sakura/Tsunade.



> Anyway if Tsunade does show a version of SM learnt from the slugs, then I think Itachi may indeed reveal a fourth more legendary place.


The Uchiha had a legendary place it's the secret shrine, which contains all the secrets about their Dojutsu and Rinnegan.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Fail. Look at Sasuke himself, his attire and his wings. Yes, it's the depiction of a _Karasu Tengu_. Sasuke's and Itachi's Susanoo look like Karasu Tengu. Crows. The summon Sasuke sits on is irrelevant.
> 
> And the dead crow could be both brothers in trouble which is likely to happen.
> 
> It could also be a sign of peace since the Chinese empire brought the  Japanese emperor a dead crow with three legs, which was a major sign of  peace between both empires.





Jeαnne said:


> i am searching here and looks like taimatsumaru   is said to be the spirit of this emperor sutoku, its represented by a   hawk/tengu in fire.
> 
> well the fun part here is that if we search for images, they remind us a   lot of the images that we see in the nakano temple. I never understood   those two tengus from the temple, because their head seemed   abnormal...well i am starting to guess that they are in fire.
> 
> ...







Sasuke's hawks are irrelevant because they don't suit your theory. 

Sasuke was never associated with crows. Since effing cover of effing Chapter 01 it were hawks, later snakes. Not crows.

Tengus were also said to be half-birds without specification of genus or generally associated with birds of prey:

"*Many believe that this bizarre combination of man and bird* still haunts  remote forests, its unreal wings conveying it great distances in a  heartbeat, and its fearsome eyes shining with the mischief it still  perpetrates upon unwary humans."

"*Although today they are often associated with crows, ravens, and the like* (_karasu_ can refer to any member of genus _Corvus_),* the first bird they were identified with was apparently the black-eared kite, Milvus lineatus,*  a gregarious raptor Lafcadio Hearn noted for its insolent and brash behavior around humans."

"Sometimes this is said to be the image of the _dai-tengu_ or _ō-tengu_ (great tengu), who is served by flocks of common tengu called as _ko-tengu_ or _karasu-tengu_ (little or crow tengu).

Closely associated with the _tengu_ are the _yamabushi_ or _shugenja_,  a sect of ascetic warrior-monks who sought power and enlightenment by  living in the harsh, unforgiving, and supernaturally-auspicious  environment of the mountains. Sharing the _tengu_'s remote home and bad reputation, the *yamabushi inevitably became associated with the bird-goblins*, and often hold their image sacred. So universal was this correlation that _tengu_ are almost always depicted wearing the mountain-ascetic's small black cap and pom-pommed sash."

Konjou Kumiai's site

Karasu Tengu isn't the only tengu. Crow association wasn't always there  for these demons and don't forget the meaning of tengu: "celestial dog"  or even...

[FONT=&quot]But there is still more that we can learn from the simple [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]words of the Nihongi, At the side of the characters ^ <b, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]** *Celestial Dog,**' we find kana, reading ** Ama tsu kitsune " [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]or *'       *Celestial Fox.*** Now, the latter is also a well-known [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Chinese demon. Professor de Groot (Religious System of [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]China, v. p. 587 J quotes the Huen chung ki,^ which states: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]**And when a fox is a thousand years old, it penetrates to [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]heaven and becomes a celestial fox." The Japanese authors [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]cite also the work Wuh tsah tsu,^ where we read: **When a [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]fox is a thousand years old, it ascends to heaven and does not [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]haunt (the people) any longer." 
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot;]http://archive.org/stream/transactionsasi22japagoog/transactionsasi22japagoog_djvu.txt[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Second thing... LOL at crow as sacrificial lamb for peace. Every interpretation is welcome, but not the obvious one. Sigh.[/FONT]


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

arednad said:


> Tsunade at this present moment is fighting. Could be a similar case to Jugo, Kabuto/Orochimaru and the snakes. Tsunade learnt SM from Snails, but Kimimaro's clan know some techniques from the snails.
> 
> If Itachi knows anything similar to Sage Mode it will not be from a place with equal respect to Frog and Snake place, it will be somewhere different.



Context suggests Tsunade is running on her last leg. She already revealed her upmost secret: Byakugou. The third most important rule of a medical allowed to fight.

When Jiraiya was running on his last leg, he revealed SM. Naruto perfected it.
Orochimaru's SM ambitions were made reality by Kabuto, through his dragon SM.
Tsunade revealed Byakugou, her last stance against Madara, much like Jiraiya against Pain. Sakura is going to inherit Byakugou. No traces of a slug SM whatsoever.

And also I already pointed out that the Crow/Tengu mode =/= SM. It's going to be the power of the elder son since RS is a Karasu Tengu as well.
The power theme has been echoed all over with crows.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Context suggests Tsunade is running on her last leg. She already revealed her upmost secret: Byakugou. The third most important rule of a medical allowed to fight.
> 
> When Jiraiya was running on his last leg, he revealed SM. Naruto perfected it.
> Orochimaru's SM ambitions were made reality by Kabuto, through his dragon SM.
> ...


I don't see why Tsunade couldn't reveal SM, I mean something has to save the Kages from the clones long enough for Sasuke & Itachi to end Edo Tensei and the only option there is really Slug SM.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not because they don't suit my theory, but rather because the Karasu have mythological importance while the Taka have not.

Sasuke was depicted as a Karasu tengu on the cover you showed me in your post before. Black wings and purple attire were the key.

Karasu Tengu is not the only Tengu, that is true. There are other Tengu species such as Konoha Tengu for example.
But Karasu Tengu (the corvids) were the strongest image of Tengu because they were known to all. They simply were more common.

Because they were so common, the Karasu Tengu were teachers of the Ninjutsu arts to these warrior monks like the Yamabushi.

The hawk is a symbol of freedom in *western* mythology, not eastern, hence the hawk holds no importance in that mythology with Tengu and corvids in general.



Turrin said:


> I don't see why Tsunade couldn't reveal SM, I mean something has to save the Kages from the clones long enough for Sasuke & Itachi to end Edo Tensei and the only option there is really Slug SM.



Jiraiya revealed his SM upon seeing the Rinnegan. 
Kabuto revealed his SM upon seeing the two Uchiha brothers.

Tsunade is the only one who hasn't revealed a SM because she simply doesn't have one. If she had one, she would've revealed it when Pain invaded Konoha.

Also there's so much emphasis on Tsunade's Byakugou being her final technique that a SM is really outta the picture here.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 24, 2012)

Itachi seems strong enough. And an asspull of a mode that just has to do with strong emotion but is on par with SM does not make sense. And the whole eyes and body symbolism can't be ignored. Basically the whole argument is the same as the slugs. They live in humid places, eat things until only bones are left, and live in forests. Slugs live in forests, humid places, and the acid from the slugs could leave only a forest of bones. Big difference is that we know Snakes and frogs have a mountain. Only other animals that associate with snakes and a frogs are slugs. Not only that but the whole symbolism with Tsunade not having amazing eyes and having a strong body (also being granddaughter of Hashirama who represented the body as opposed to the eyes) seem to fit as opposed to Itachi who does not have the body just the eyes.

And from a story perspective, Itachi is strong enough and is dead. No need to show off new powers just for him since he is already dead and does not need them. This just comes off as a desperate attempt to make Uchiha Itachi stronger than he already is giving him some random crow mode that he so conveniently does not need the requirements of normal SM (large chakra/strong body) but instead just needs strong emotion lol. It is almost like an admission of fear that Itachi will lose if he does not show something different but I digress.....


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> It's not because they don't suit my theory, but rather because the* Karasu have mythological importance while the Taka have not.*
> *
> Sasuke was depicted as a Karasu tengu on the cover you showed me in your post before. Black wings and purple attire were the key.*
> 
> ...



Man, you see crows everywhere. Your Itachi fanboyism clouds your mind. There's no facepalm extreme enough to post here.

For the bolded parts quote evidence.


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## Uzumakinaru (Mar 24, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Sage Mode Itachi would unleash an unbelievable shitstorm.



Itachi was born on crow Sage Mode, he is tripedal.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 24, 2012)

It's where Naruto and Bee trained. We have never been given its name.



That sure as hell looks like a bone forest to me.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 24, 2012)

^^Then Gai has SM!!


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Jiraiya revealed his SM upon seeing the Rinnegan.
> Kabuto revealed his SM upon seeing the two Uchiha brothers.


Tsunade just started actually fighting a major battle, I don't think we can say we've seen all she's got just yet.



> she would've revealed it when Pain invaded Konoha.


No she wouldn't have, since she was using all of her focus on healing the Konoha villagers



> Also there's so much emphasis on Tsunade's Byakugou being her final technique that a SM is really outta the picture here.


Nothing says Byakugou is her final technique. Byakuguo is hyped as one of her strongest techniques, but Jiraiya has several powerful techs and SM. Plus Byakugou may be Tsunade's best tech, since it is what allows her body to be strong enough to handle SM.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Man, you see crows everywhere. Your Itachi fanboyism clouds your mind. There's no facepalm extreme enough to post here.
> 
> For the bolded parts quote evidence.



I've read the Kojiki and the Nihongi. Hawks are not mentioned in Japanese folklore explicitly. 

The only thing that comes closest to the Karasu Tengu is the Buddhist deity _Garuda / Karura_, a mythological man-hawk deity. It's the equivalent of ?the Tengu deities in Japan. 
- Personifies the blazing rays of _sun_, the wind, and the esoteric teachings of the Vedas (Indian texts of sacred knowledge). 
- Fierce bird of prey, variously described as an eagle, _hawk_, or kite. Can spew fire from mouth; flapping of wings sounds like clap of _thunder_. 
- Mortal Enemy of the naga, a Hindu group including _serpents_ & _dragons_. Karura feeds on the naga.


These are all Sasuke's qualities. He's not the Karura, but rather a Karasu Tengu as shown here:



It fits perfectly. Sasuke's wings are blackish like the Tengu's on the right.
He wears a magical gemstone that all Tengus are said to wear.
His attire fits the attire of the Tengu to a T.

Since the Uchiha through RS are very likely to have a strong link to the corvids (Karasu can refer to corvids in general), it's not a strech why he is depicted as a Karasu Tengu.
The same Karasu Tengu features are shown in Sasuke's and Itachi's Susanoo as well.

His abilities (sun, thunder) and his enemity to snakes and dragons are natures of the Garuda, the man-hawk "Tengu". But his lineage, the elder son of RS, links his clan to the corvids.

That's what I'm trying to say.

And to the Karasu Tengu being the strongest image: They are the most common species of Tengu, being under servitute of the Daitengu of Mount Kurama. Not all tengu are equal; knowledgeable men become _daitengu_ (大天狗, great tengu), but ignorant ones become _kotengu_ (小天狗, small tengu)
Kotengu are either the Karasu Tengu or the Konoha Tengu. The Karasu Tengu were associated wth the Yin, spiritual element and taught the humans Ninjutsu. They are the most common image of Tengu.

An interesting aspect is also that you can only become a Tengu in *death*. It's basically a state of limbo according to Buddhism. You did very bad things (such as murder), yet your intentions were noble. You can't go to hell, but not to heaven either. So you come back to life as a Tengu to serve the humans and teach them.

Daitengu lived on either Mount Kurama or Mount Akiba, whereas Kotengu lived in a place called _Shikoku_. Sounds familiar, eh


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 24, 2012)

Obviously the Slug,Snake and Frogs are the only summons in the narutoverse which are paired together for a reason. They are Sage summons, the Tengu dont fit in that.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Obviously the Slug,Snake and Frogs are the only summons in the narutoverse which are paired together for a reason. They are Sage summons, the Tengu dont fit in that.



Erm.. according to the Tenguron (scripture on Tengu), Tengu are considered to be Sage as well. They are usually over 1000 years old and have a great knowledge on the Ninjutsu.


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2012)

No offense, but anyone revealing another Sage Mode would be a huge ass-pull, including Itachi, Sasuke and Tsunade. Unless their name is Juugo.

Also Lee, pretty sure he learned Turtle Sage mode.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Erm.. according to the Tenguron (scripture on Tengu), Tengu are considered to be Sage as well. They are usually over 1000 years old and have a great knowledge on the Ninjutsu.



Except Kishi has his own rulles and according to manga cannon there are 3 type of summons which are paired together and 2 of them have sage characteristics. Come on now, Kishi is rubbing it in our faces, the Frogs, Snakes and Slugs all share the same trait, adding Crows/Tengu would be random as hell.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Except Kishi has his own rulles and according to manga cannon there are 3 type of summons which are paired together and 2 of them have sage characteristics. Come on now, Kishi is rubbing it in our faces, the Frogs, Snakes and Slugs all share the same trait, adding Crows/Tengu would be random as hell.



Not really random because RS himself is depicted as a Tengu on many occasions


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

sutol posted this in the sasuke fc 



it could go either way really, i just know that _something_ is up.


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2012)

Mmmm, now looking at all these theories, how boring would it be if it did end up being a place for random snails and slugs to hang out.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Except Kishi has his own rulles and according to manga cannon there are 3 type of summons which are paired together and 2 of them have sage characteristics. Come on now, Kishi is rubbing it in our faces, the Frogs, Snakes and Slugs all share the same trait, adding Crows/Tengu would be random as hell.



come on, random?

the banana fan, shakujo staff, tengu being the origin of the ninjas in the mythology, two tengus in the walls of the secret nakano temple room that has the tablet with the secrets of rikudou.

kishi has been rubbing this in our faces way longer than anything related to slugs . Not really saying that the one that Kabuto mentioned is the one meant to be rikudou's, even because i doubt that kabuto would know. But really, its a matter of time now until we discover what is up and now that it was proven that this stuff is not only about frogs, the story changed completly.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> sutol posted this in the sasuke fc
> 
> 
> 
> it could go either way really, i just know that _something_ is up.



Yep. 

According to Buddhist mythology, a Tengu is a Tengu because he can't go to the afterlife due to the bad deeds he commited.
A Tengu is stuck in the *Impure World* for 1000 years typically. Hmm.. Impure World Resurrection - Edo Tensei. Could it be..?


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Lets suppose that shikkotsurin is for slugs.

we are just bound to discover later that there is a secret one for birds/crows that gave origin to tengu mode , because we get hints of this since the very first cover of the manga.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> Lets suppose that shikkotsurin is for slugs.
> 
> we are just bound to discover later that there is a secret one for birds/crows that gave origin to tengu mode , because we get hints of this since the very first cover of the manga.



Still, why would slugs dwell in a place that is a humid _bone_ forest ._.
Bones are associated with death and crows need humidity to wash their food.

They prey on snails and slugs btw ._.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

@ Yachiru

Nothing associates the WHOLE Uchiha clan with crows. Nothing associates Elder Son of Sage with corvids also. It's only _Itachi's personal trademark_. That what you wrote sounds more like Itachi's fate than Sasuke's. You made far too easly the transition crow <--> Karasu Tengu. The fact that Japanese mythology imagined Tengu as half-man/half-bird (half-crow, half-bird of pray) doesn't equal with those demons having the same meaning as crows. Its like not seeing the difference between shark and mermaid.

Sasuke wears magical gemstone? I thougt it was monk's cap:





But if it is magical gemstone, what does it do? I'm intruiged. 

We can play the game his feathers color comes from kite, huh?

The word Kurama sounds familiar, but it is _misleading._ Our Japanese friends on the NF destroyed Kurama's (Kulama) link to Mt. Kurama:





Evil said:


> 九喇嘛 - Kyubi's name
> 
> 鞍馬山 - Mountain your are referring too.
> 
> The Kanji in the Kyubi's name is a reference to a Lama, as in the Dalai Lama.



Same goes for Shikoku and Akiba. I don't know what links should I make out of them to the topic.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Still, why would slugs dwell in a place that is a humid _bone_ forest ._.
> Bones are associated with death and crows need humidity to wash their food.
> 
> They prey on snails and slugs btw ._.


perhaps its a crow and slug place.

crows eat slugs just like madara is trying to eat tsunade now, you know .


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> @ Yachiru
> 
> Nothing associates the WHOLE Uchiha clan with crows. Nothing associates Elder Son of Sage with corvids also. It's only _Itachi's personal trademark_. That what you wrote sounds more like Itachi's fate than Sasuke's. You made far too easly the transition crow <--> Karasu Tengu. The fact that Japanese mythology imagined Tengu as half-man/half-bird (half-crow, half-bird of pray) doesn't equal with those demons having the same meaning as crows. Its like not seeing the difference between shark and mermaid.
> 
> ...



The Uchiha are associated with Tengu through Susanoo.. Those Uchiha that have achieved MS are linked to Tengu through their Susanoo. On the Uchiha shrine there is a Tengu ._. That's what I actually meant.

Crows, particularly the Yatagarasu, are symbols of power and influence in human affairs. The elder son of Sage wanted peace through means of power.
And since Karasu Tengu were teachers of the arts and RS did the same, maybe RS is modelled on the Tengu. 

And yes.. most of the myths with Yatagarasu seem to point at Itachi, but the fact that Tengu are stuck in the _impure_ world seems interesting ._.

Magical gemstones were sacred artifacts of benevolence. These Tengu gemstones are on Susanoo as well.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> @ Yachiru
> 
> Nothing associates the WHOLE Uchiha clan with crows. Nothing associates Elder Son of Sage with corvids also. It's only _Itachi's personal trademark_. That what you wrote sounds more like Itachi's fate than Sasuke's. You made far too easly the transition crow <--> Karasu Tengu. The fact that Japanese mythology imagined Tengu as half-man/half-bird (half-crow, half-bird of pray) doesn't equal with those demons having the same meaning as crows. Its like not seeing the difference between shark and mermaid.
> 
> ...



the fact that there is a karasu tengu in the walls of the nakano temple close to the tablet doesnt count?

btw, its more about ko-tengu than anything, they can have form of a crow as well as the form of a hawk or kite. Its not only crows.



> Tengu are generally described or envisioned as a *bird-like entity*, *taking on one form of several varieties*. *First there is the Karasu Tengu, a winged bird-man who can harness the powers of nature. These types of tengu usually have a beak and seem more bird-like than man-like, and they wear a cap on their head, and carry a sword or jo staff*. The mask to the left is an example of this sort of Tengu.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> the fact that there is a karasu tengu in the walls of the nakano temple close to the tablet doesnt count?
> 
> btw, its more about ko-tengu than anything, they can have form of a crow as well as the form of a hawk or kite. Its not only crows.



_Tengu are generally described or envisioned as a bird-like entity, taking on one form of several varieties. First there is *the Karasu Tengu, a winged bird-man who can harness the powers of nature.* These types of tengu usually have a beak and seem more bird-like than man-like, and they wear a cap on their head, and carry *a sword* or jo staff. The mask to the left is an example of this sort of Tengu._ 

Okay.. so you're telling me that the *crow Tengu* can use *natural energy?* 
Do you know what that would mean 

A sword.. Totsuka perhaps? ._.

And Karasu Tengu exist in the Manga


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

@ Yachiru

I am not against link between Uchiha and Tengu. I am against linking Sasuke to crows' imaginary while downplaying and shrugging off Sasuke's _hawk_ connections. Like it or not he was linked to them from the beginning of the manga.

You are extrapolating Itachi's _crow connections_ (Yatagarasu) to the whole clan, which is wrong. Crow (Yatagarasu) and Elder Son? Please, there is NOTHING in the manga to suggest that. We don't even know, if he had Susanoo and the rest of the Uchiha jazz.

What Susanoo has on its head is not explained, but on Sasuke's image there is monk's cap, not diamond.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> _Tengu are generally described or envisioned as a bird-like entity, taking on one form of several varieties. First there is *the Karasu Tengu, a winged bird-man who can harness the powers of nature.* These types of tengu usually have a beak and seem more bird-like than man-like, and they wear a cap on their head, and carry *a sword* or jo staff. The mask to the left is an example of this sort of Tengu._
> 
> Okay.. so you're telling me that the *crow Tengu* can use *natural energy?*
> Do you know what that would mean
> ...


exacly .

Yachiru lets make a thread with all tengu evidences of the manga, what do you think?



Last Rose of Summer said:


> @ Yachiru
> 
> I am not against link between Uchiha and Tengu. I am against linking Sasuke to crows' imaginary while downplaying and shrugging off Sasuke's _hawk_ connections. Like it or not he was linked to them from the beginning of the manga.
> 
> ...



They are all tengus, may it be linked to hawk or crows. Sasuke as a hawk would still be linked to tengus xD;


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> exacly .
> 
> Yachiru lets make a thread with all tengu evidences of the manga, what do you think?



I'm all for it nod

I know *exactly* what it means when not just any Tengu, but the *crow* Tengu can harness natural energy .____.

sage mode...


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## ch1p (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Still, why would slugs dwell in a place that is a humid _bone_ forest ._.
> Bones are associated with death and crows need humidity to wash their food.



A frog is more commonly associated with ponds and glens. Similarly, snakes are more commonly associated with being out in the open than skulking in caves. Sure you can trace both to trees and caves, but it's not what springs to mind immediately.

Neither of the locations is specific of either animal's habitat. If this is no requirement for the others, then the same can be said for slugs.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> the fact that there is a karasu tengu in the walls of the nakano temple close to the tablet doesnt count?
> 
> *btw, its more about ko-tengu than anything, they can have form of a crow as* *well as the form of a hawk or kite. Its not only crows.*



This is what I am talking about the whole time! Tengu imaginary isn't excusively based on the crow. Plus: Tengu =/= crow.

And OP sent Sasuke's hawk theme to hell. As he wrote:

"Sasuke
- Sasuke is not depicted as a hawk at all. Kishimoto depicts him as a _Karasu Tengu_, a _crow_ demon.
- He used the vision of Karasu Bunshin in the Danzo fight.
- It is said that Sasuke will adapt _Itachi's_ things once he is saved, inculding all his crow traits.
- The hawk seems to hold no general importance anymore, but the crow always had massive importance through Sasuke as well."


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> I'm all for it nod
> 
> I know *exactly* what it means when not just any Tengu, but the *crow* Tengu can harness natural energy .____.
> 
> sage mode...


i guess that there are many kinds of tengus, but the ones that uchihas are linked to are the karasu.

the yamabushi like sojobo was most likely linked to sojobo himself, since its a hermit sage.

it would divide the tengu links in two/three stages, and the uchihas would be related to the nature force control, interesting no? now we also know why rinnegan and rain was so linked. Maybe even why Itachi seemed to be able to feel something throught rain when they thought that Sasuke had died.



Last Rose of Summer said:


> This is what I am talking about the whole time! Tengu imaginary isn't excusively based on the crow. Plus: Tengu =/= crow.
> 
> And OP sent Sasuke's hawk theme to hell. As he wrote:
> 
> ...



yes, i agree xD

the karasu name is misleading.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> i guess that there are many kinds of tengus, but the ones that uchihas are linked to are the karasu.
> 
> the yamabushi like sojobo was most likely linked to sojobo himself, since its a hermit sage.
> 
> it would divide the tengu links in two/three stages, and the uchihas would be related to the nature force control, interesting no? now we also know why rinnegan and rain was so linked.



A hermit sage? By any chance, is Sojobo a toad sage? ._.

Yeah.. these links could suggest how not only the younger son, but the elder son too were able to use Senjutsu ._.

And also, if the Karasu Tengu can harness natural energy and the Uchiha are linked to the Karasu.. then technically they should be able to use SM.
Also since they have enormous chakra pools.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> *A hermit sage? By any chance, is Sojobo a toad sage? ._.*
> 
> Yeah.. these links could suggest how not only the younger son, but the elder son too were able to use Senjutsu ._.
> 
> ...



No, hermit is a monk, someone who leads eremitic life. Generally nothing to do with toads.

Uchiha have *enormous chakra pools*? Are we reading the same manga?

I wonder what meaning has Juugo's flesh then, if Uchihas are genetically  susceptible to nature energy (as suggested in your post).


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## Bloo (Mar 24, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...why do you even want Itachi to get MORE FUCKING BROKEN and show he is more of a Mary Sue than he actually is already?!
> 
> Not only that, Itachi doesn't meet the primary requirement for Sage Mode or any equivalent. He lacks the chakra and stamina reserves which are crucial for it.


Sage Mode requires body, Crow Mode?based on this essay?requires eyes. And don't act like the undetermined has to meet with the prerequisites of the determined.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

I believe that if uchihas will be able to use a certain mode, it will be thanks to their special chakra, it wont be about AMOUNT, but QUALITY.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> I believe that if uchihas will be able to use a certain mode, it will be thanks to their special chakra, it wont be about AMOUNT, but QUALITY.



The subtle difference.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> I believe that if uchihas will be able to use a certain mode, it will be thanks to their special chakra, it wont be about AMOUNT, but QUALITY.



Yeah. Also interestingly, Tengu generally are linked to *Susanoo*.

Tengus are great tricksters, but they are not evil.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Yeah. Also interestingly, Tengu generally are linked to *Susanoo*.
> 
> Tengus are great tricksters, but they are not evil.


i will start to gather all threads/info about tengus now , im planning that thread, help me if you feel like it xD, i will be also getting throught the manga covers/images, it will be some work but totally worthy it. xD


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> i will start to gather all threads/info about tengus now , im planning that thread, help me if you feel like it xD, i will be also getting throught the manga covers/images, it will be some work but totally worthy it. xD



I know 

Imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if Itachi was indeed capable of a SM that relies on quality rather than quantity


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> I know
> 
> Imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if Itachi was indeed capable of a SM that relies on quality rather than quantity


i would like to see people's face if a mode is revealed specially for uchihas .

They are always like uchihas = eyes and nothing else, ignoring evidences, lets see.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Tengu typically have a _hauchiwa_, a fan made of feathers. What is the Uchiha clan's symbol? A fan


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Tengu typically have a _hauchiwa_, a fan made of feathers. What is the Uchiha clan's symbol? A fan


What about the banana fan too 

any semelhance is definitely mere coincidence.


*Spoiler*: __ 









"The best part about this chapter is that there is a weapon called the “Banana Fan”. Also it is powerful as hell, *being able to create any of the five elements out of thin air*;"


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> What about the banana fan too



Oh my 

It has been there forever and we only noticed this just now


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Oh my
> 
> It has been there forever and we only noticed this just now


i have taken it as evidence since the day it appeared .

btw i added some stuff in my post.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> What about the banana fan too
> 
> any semelhance is definitely mere coincidence.
> 
> ...



The more we learn about Tengu, the more they seem to spell SAGE MODE 

I mean, look what we got:

- Tengu = Sage.
- They harness natural energy.
- They create the 5 elements out of thin air.
- They have a strong link to Susanoo, one of the _Koto Amatsukami_.
- They are tricksters and deceivers, but never truly evil.
- They marked the beginning of the Ninja arts (Ninjutsu)

Also Uchiha have enormous Chakra because they inherited the sage's chakra and eyes


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## Jeαnne (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> The more we learn about Tengu, the more they seem to spell SAGE MODE
> 
> I mean, look what we got:
> 
> ...


I dont consider that Uchihas have enormous chakra, but special chakra.

After all, if there is a mode, chakra pool would be irrelevant, they would use nature chakra throught their special chakra.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> I dont consider that Uchihas have enormous chakra, but special chakra.
> 
> After all, if there is a mode, chakra pool would be irrelevant, they would use nature chakra throught their special chakra.



Yes. Remember how Itachi said that he and Sasuke are unique brothers 

These two are likely to be eligible for that kind of SM. And Itachi seems to know much more than he told us before ._.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 24, 2012)

Problem is that Kishi doesent use only japanese mythology. He took the Sage theme from the original chinese one. The Sages in the chinese mythology are accossiated with Frogs and Dragons for the most part. Uchihas were never meant to have powers associated with the body to begin with.
Kishi showed that very clear when he removed the CS from Sasuke. The CS isnt even true SM, Itachi knew that the CS was somehow hindering Sasuke to reach his dojutsu potential. Even more clear sign that SM is not compatible with Uchihas.
Kishi also keeps things balanced having Sasuke attaining new eye powers while his rival gets supplementary enhancements to his body.
So yeah, the possibility of Sasuke attaining SM is as high as Naruto attaining Rinnegan or Juubi's eye.


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## NamiKazeKage (Mar 24, 2012)

Taking in all the info from the OP and the replies I have come to a far better conclusion.
That Itachi Or Sasuke will unlock a Bodysuit version of SusanoO. It will increase his durability, speed, and power, all the while granting himself ranged weapons.


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## Raiden (Mar 24, 2012)

OP did an excellent job explaining the mythical significance of the crows or w/e.

I feel as if some of the parallelisms established to the manga are not as strong. Honestly, I'm not sold on the idea of a crow being animal symbolism for Sasuke. Both the databook and the mangaka strongly establish him as a "snake transforming into a hawk." The idea of a "crow sage mode" makes the mangaka's methodology a bit messy.


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

President Goobang said:


> OP did an excellent job explaining the mythical significance of the crows or w/e.
> 
> I feel as if some of the parallelisms established to the manga are not as strong. Honestly, I'm not sold on the idea of a crow being animal symbolism for Sasuke. Both the databook and the mangaka strongly establish him as a "snake transforming into a hawk." The idea of a "crow sage mode" makes the mangaka's methodology a bit messy.



The Sasuke = Crow thing was a misconception on my behalf >.<
Tengu are not limited to crows only; Sasuke is the hawk Tengu, the Garuda. 

It's not just a crow SM, but rather a Tengu mode strictly limited to members of the Uchiha clan.


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## Crona (Mar 24, 2012)

These myth connections are always so interesting. 

Very well thought out, although I do think of crows mostly attribute with Itachi. So most likely in my opinion this will be Itachi's technique (something he couldn't do when he was living). Maybe its association might also be with Madara and Tobi.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Mar 24, 2012)

NamiKazeKage said:


> Taking in all the info from the OP and the replies I have come to a far better conclusion.
> That Itachi Or Sasuke will unlock a Bodysuit version of SusanoO. It will increase his durability, speed, and power, all the while granting himself ranged weapons.





I actually thought EMS would be like that, before the reveal.


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## Mister (Mar 24, 2012)

> Loosely on unpopular mythology. However, as we know, the Koto Amatsukami, Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu/Susanoo and the Yatagarasu are the most famous myths in Japanese mythology.



We know those are names of jutsu. However Yatagarasu isn't likely to make in, maybe as a side jutsu or a Kuchiyose no Jutsu.
One thing is certain, no crow mode will be in as Itachi lacks the chakra requirement.

Orochimaru didn't even have Sage Mode, he couldn't find a capable body, and he had more chakra than Itachi and expressed interest in people with more chakra than Itachi. 
See the trend?




Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Touch?. I really can't argue with that, although their illnesses might have affected them differently.





An illness affects one body nevertheless, and chakra capacity is partially dependent on the body.


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## Raiden (Mar 24, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> The Sasuke = Crow thing was a misconception on my behalf >.<
> Tengu are not limited to crows only; Sasuke is the hawk Tengu, the Garuda.
> 
> It's not just a crow SM, but rather a Tengu mode strictly limited to members of the Uchiha clan.



Oh ok. I was a bit confused by some of the discussion on the first page I guess.

Very good thread overall. Really enjoyed myself reading. Can't remember last time I've read one of the longer threads.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Mar 24, 2012)

Mister said:


> We know those are names of jutsu. However Yatagarasu isn't likely to make in, maybe as a side jutsu or a Kuchiyose no Jutsu.
> One thing is certain, no crow mode will be in as Itachi lacks the chakra requirement.
> 
> Orochimaru didn't even have Sage Mode, he couldn't find a capable body, and he had more chakra than Itachi and expressed interest in people with more chakra than Itachi.
> ...



If you're absolutely sure about Yachiru being wrong, you wouldn't mind taking on my bet (below), would you? 



HighLevelPlayer said:


> Terms:
> 
> - If Itachi and/or Sasuke reveal a crow mode before the end of their fight with Kabuto, I win
> - If the above condition is not met, whomever bet against me wins
> - Loser gets a 1 week ban from NF (or must wear a sig of the winner's choice for two weeks if the mods are unwilling to ban the loser)


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## Yachiru (Mar 24, 2012)

Mister said:


> We know those are names of jutsu. However Yatagarasu isn't likely to make in, maybe as a side jutsu or a Kuchiyose no Jutsu.
> One thing is certain, no crow mode will be in as Itachi lacks the chakra requirement.
> 
> Orochimaru didn't even have Sage Mode, he couldn't find a capable body, and he had more chakra than Itachi and expressed interest in people with more chakra than Itachi.
> ...



Itachi doesn't lack the chakra requirement for a SM of the *elder* son. Karasu Tengu (the image of crows) have the ability to harness the power of the 5 elements as well as natural energy. 

Also, Itachi's Tengu image is that of the Yamabushi Tengu, the great hermit sage. 

A SM of the elder son would rely on the quality of your eyes and the quality of your chakra. All Uchiha have that Chakra quality. People often ignore the fact that the elder son of Sage also had great Chakra quality.

There's tons of Manga evidence that the Uchiha are modelled on the Tengu. So much that it would shock you 

And also.. A Tengu is a monster-spirit that can't go to the afterlife and is stuck in the *Impure World* 

No matter where you look - everything associated with crows, hawks, Tengu and the Uchiha spells Sage Mode.


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## Topher (Mar 24, 2012)

NamiKazeKage said:


> Taking in all the info from the OP and the replies I have come to a far better conclusion.
> That Itachi Or Sasuke will unlock a Bodysuit version of SusanoO. It will increase his durability, speed, and power, all the while granting himself ranged weapons.



this makes more sense than crow mode. There's been more association between the tengu and susano rather than their bodies. Furthermore, the fact that OP has to dismiss sasuke's hawk theme in order for the theory to make sense, kills it from the get go.


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## Hiei312 (Mar 24, 2012)

well, regardless of what shikkotsurin ends up being that myth about amaterasu being threatened by a terrible monster and then saved by her guardian crow makes it fairly obvious what will happen in this fight


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## Burning_Neoxor (Mar 24, 2012)

I going have respectfully disagree with your theory, Op. You would have had a case if the sage of the white snake had taught Kabuto something totally different from SM but that's not the case. White snake taught him SM that was very similar to the SM Naruto learned. It had the same requirements and uses natural energy the same way. It makes no sense that Shikkotsurin would use natural energy in a radically different way and for a specific clan with a specific kekkei genkai. The other two places weren't KG specific and was willing to teach anyone who had strong body.The most logical conclusion one can draw from what Kabuto said is the that third place teaches SM and have same requirements body requirements as the other two. 

You may have done your research and connected the crow/bird to the Tengu as well as to the Uchiha but I believe your Crow -> "SM for the eyes" is a weak Popsicle bridge strung together with cooked spaghetti.    

Here's my alternate theory. Madara hasn't use any of his EMS powers yet because hasn't been pushed to. Hell, he hasn't shown all the abilities of Rinnegan and only use 2 MS tech of the know 4. My bet is that Kabuto will push Sasuke to use the EMS and the powers will be related to abilities of the Tengu without using any natural energy. Uchiha fan's will be filled with hype and glee as they forget all about wanting SM for Uchiha.


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## Divinstrosity (Mar 24, 2012)

Nah. 

Leave the transformations to everyone else. 

I can hardly stomach the supremely-cheesy Susano'o.


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## Reddan (Mar 24, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Here's what I think on the issue:


Fair enough. I disagree, but we will wait and see if future arguments support my viewpoint. 


> I don't think Itachi found those weapons, I think they simply are the weapons he gained with his Susano'o, just like Sasuke has his Amaterasu sword.


Itachi's weapons are the only ones that have been named. Itachi has the highly significant Imperial Regalia. Itachi's weapons are the only ones claimed to be legendary.


> Sasuke mastering CS does not mean he could master SM, CS is a knock off.


Yes CS is a SM knock off, but it is a good litmus test. Surviving SM and mastering was only ever done by 2 people:Sasuke and Kimimaro. Oddly enough these are the only two people he considered to be worthy to hold him. Orochimaru wanted a body strong enough to fully master SM.


> Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body for his eyes, he most like wanted Senju Hashirama's powers not only for his Mokuton and what not, but also to enhance the strength of his body so he could learn SM.


He wanted Mokuten for many reasons, but at the end of the day he came to view Sasuke as the fulfilment of all his goals. Right now Tobi has 7 Jinchuriki, Hashirama's cells, the Rinnegan and yet he still considers Sasuke as key.


> Have no clue what your talking about.


Sasuke and Itachi are more special than other Uchiha's/


> The Uchiha had a legendary place it's the secret shrine, which contains all the secrets about their Dojutsu and Rinnegan.


Yes, but I never said it was an Uchiha shrine. It is probably something older and required a test of character to earn.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 25, 2012)

btw, am i the only one that thinks that we finally have a chance of understanding Itachi's words to Sasuke right after the massacre?

I never got why he was like "it was to test my container" "to test your container"

i mean, you can all come here and say that he was lying because he wanted to make Sasuke hate him, but his words seemed to be pretty well chosen, they didnt fit the context, its like he had something in mind.

And now that Sasuke actually kept bringing up the "when you have the same eyes as me, come and find me", its bound to mean something important, even if it was fate.




Yachiru said:


> The Sasuke = Crow thing was a misconception on my behalf >.<
> Tengu are not limited to crows only; Sasuke is the hawk Tengu, the Garuda.
> 
> It's not just a crow SM, but rather a Tengu mode strictly limited to members of the Uchiha clan.



Garuda is not a tengu, Garuda is from Hindu.

But yeah, there is a small link. Just like there is a link to Karura.



> The Karura (迦楼羅) is an enormous, fire-breathing creature from Japanese Hindu-Buddhist mythology. It has the body of a human and the face or beak of an eagle. It is based on the original Hindu mythical divinity Garuda;[1] and brought to Japan via Buddhism. Karura is a Japanese transliteration of the Sanskrit Garuḍa गरुड or the Pāli Garuḷa.
> 
> The Karura is said to be the enemy of snakes and dragons, just as Garuda is the enemy of the Nāgas. Only a dragon who possesses a Buddhist talisman, or one who has converted to the Buddhist teaching, can escape from the Karura.



In the end, both Itachi and Sasuke are about tengus, the difference is that Itachi is the crow and Sasuke is the Hawk.


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## Yachiru (Mar 25, 2012)

Here is a good and authentic post that debunks the notion that Itachi can't handle SM:


*Spoiler*: __ 





dark messiah verdandi said:


> Itachi Could if it presented itself.
> Why?
> 
> Look at what fukusaku said
> ...






It seems that people have no idea how SM works. Going by this, Itachi would not only able to meet the requirements for SM, but he would also be able to perfect it.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 25, 2012)

You mean that is post full of bullshit numbers that he completely made up. I will use one with numbers as well. Only people with 5 tier stamina have shown to utilize SM. Itachi has 2.5. Orochimaru had 3.5 and could not. There is really nothing to back up your theory. But E for Effort though!


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## αce (Mar 25, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato's dead, and he hasn't came back to the stage. Any argument that Minato is a Sue is false since the story doesn't bend over backwards every time he appears. When Itachi appears, it does. It even went so far to give him a means of breaking Edo Tensei control.




Itachi has flaws. Minato doesn't.
Obvious Mary Sue is *obvious*.


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## Yachiru (Mar 25, 2012)

Rosencrantz said:


> You mean that is post full of bullshit numbers that he completely made up. I will use one with numbers as well. Only people with 5 tier stamina have shown to utilize SM. Itachi has 2.5. Orochimaru had 3.5 and could not. There is really nothing to back up your theory. But E for Effort though!



Did you even read the post? 

Stamina =/= Chakra. 

Yet _Chakra_ is the key to SM. And the _potency_ of the Chakra determines how well the user will be able to handle the SM.

Naruto's potency in Inton is almost nonexistent, while he has a high potency in Youton chakra. 
Uchiha on the level of Itachi, Sasuke and Madara have a high potency in Inton, spiritual chakra, yet their potency in Youton is not very high.

Through the Elder Son of Sage, the Uchiha clan has enormous chakra and it is really potent through its Inton affinity. Enormous and potent Chakra is the key to enter to SM and THEN you add natural energy.

It only makes sense that the Uchiha would be able to use SM. Interestingly, the Tengu, on which the Uchiha are based on, did exactly that. They practiced Shugendo, which involves harnessing natural energy and the 5 elements out of thin air.

The reason why Orochimaru couldn't handle SM is because he likely didn't have a potency in either Inton or Youton.
Jiraiya could partially handle it because his chakra was similar to Naruto's.

This is why Orochimaru favoured the body of an Uchiha because not only did they have the Sharingan, but their chakra was really potent as well.
But Orochimaru himself, who - by Chakra standards - is weak, can't handle SM.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 25, 2012)

People need to understand, we link chakra amount to body because we take naruto as the biggest example, but he is a representation of the body power, chakra is not stamina.

Chakra is Spiritual energy + physical energy, each brother got half of rikudou's chakra power. Naruto is about the physical energy, Sasuke is about the Spiritual energy.


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## Yachiru (Mar 25, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> People need to understand, we link chakra amount to body because we take naruto as the biggest example, but he is a representation of the body power, chakra is not stamina.
> 
> Chakra is Spiritual energy + physical energy, each brother got half of rikudou's chakra power. Naruto is about the physical energy, Sasuke is about the Spiritual energy.



In fact, Stamina is influenced by different factors. Itachi's illness was obviously very taxing as was his frequent use of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

But people need to stop confusing Stamina with Chakra; and the primary requirement for SM is a large chakra pool.


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## jacamo (Mar 25, 2012)

whilst i certainly dont see everything playing out as the OP has laid out, i definitely see the validity in the Tengu mythology and how it all ties to the Uchiha, RS and the tablet, the manga references everywhere... Sasuke and Itachi's armoured Susano are already heavily modeled after the Tengu as it is, and both of them have bird summons

if there is space in the story for a "Tengu Mode" it certainly wont be related to Sage Mode at all, as OP pointed out numerous times... it might be an artistic equivalent, but it would have to be related to Susano, an off-shot, a variation, an alternative attacking style

and as others have pointed out, the physiology of the Uchiha dictate that they are incapable of SM because their bodies are on the RS Elder Son's side of the spectrum... SM is based on high proficiency for Yang chakra, whereas the Uchiha have a high proficiency for Yin chakra




it wont be related to that "Humid Bone Forrest" either, as this place has been implied to have its own talking Sage animals who teach Senjutsu under contract


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## Csdabest (Mar 25, 2012)

Agree and disagree with what you have to say. But I will say. Sasuke is a Hawk. And Itachi is a crow. Uchiha Clan is views as Birds of Prey. I belive Your looking too far into the Bone forest. Birds in General place their nest in forest and trees. So overall I think it will be birds. Toads there are different species of frogs and toads. Just like ther is with Snakes. As well as Birds


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## Csdabest (Mar 25, 2012)

jacamo said:


> whilst i certainly dont see everything playing out as the OP has laid out, i definitely see the validity in the Tengu mythology and how it all ties to the Uchiha, RS and the tablet, the manga references everywhere... Sasuke and Itachi's armoured Susano are already heavily modeled after the Tengu as it is, and both of them have bird summons
> 
> if there is space in the story for a "Tengu Mode" it certainly wont be related to Sage Mode at all, as OP pointed out numerous times... it might be an artistic equivalent, but it would have to be related to Susano, an off-shot, a variation, an alternative attacking style
> 
> ...



Very true. But supposedly Sasuke is special since he was in the small percentage to survive the Curse Seal and even fewer to master it.

Kishi is setting up for a multitudes of power ups for Sasuke in order for him to surpass Madara in power as the strongest Uchiha.

With Karin Doing something to Sasuke to possibly Unlock Rinnegan for him.

Juugo giving Sasuke his flesh cuz he was compaitible with Curse seal. Which we now know that its all related to to Natural Energy. Sasuke will practically get his own Sage mode.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 25, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> People need to understand, we link chakra amount to body because we take naruto as the biggest example, but he is a representation of the body power, chakra is not stamina.
> 
> Chakra is Spiritual energy + physical energy, each brother got half of rikudou's chakra power. Naruto is about the physical energy, Sasuke is about the Spiritual energy.



You are dead wrong, chakra is formed from stamina. 
Stamina = spiritual and physical energy
Chakra = spiritual + physical energy, in other words the amount of spiritual energy a ninja can combine with his physical energy depending on his chakra control.
Uchihas dont have large chakras and they dont have the bodies that can handle nature energy so they canot become Sages.


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## Csdabest (Mar 25, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> You are dead wrong, chakra is formed from stamina.
> Stamina = spiritual and physical energy
> Chakra = spiritual + physical energy, in other words the amount of spiritual energy a ninja can combine with his physical energy depending on his chakra control.
> Uchihas dont have large chakras and they dont have the bodies that can handle nature energy so they canot become Sages.



Sasuke prove this wrong by mastering Curse Seal and living through it. Maybe not all uchiaha can do it. But Sasuke sure can.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 25, 2012)

Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense. If you think about it, crows do have a lot more to do with a place called 'Humid Bone Forest' than slugs do, as they do typically live in humid forests and leave bones around. The fact that Itachi even seems to recognize Senjutsu *explicitly* may also be proof.

I think Itachi, like Orochimaru and Jiraiya, may demonstrate an imperfect version of the 'crow' Sennin Modo, only for Sasuke to later learn and perfect in the future in order to give him the power to fight and defeat Naruto. After all, my intuition tells me that EMS won't be enough.

I think Naruto and Sasuke's final fight would involve them using Rikudou Mode and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan respectively, but not as the main power-up modes. Those two modes could be combined with Toad Senjutsu and Crow Senjutsu respectively, making it an amazing fight to behold.


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## Riordian (Mar 25, 2012)

> only for Sasuke to later learn and perfect in the future in order to give him the power to fight and defeat Naruto



Defeat Naruto ? he's considered a villain now ? lol


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## sasutachi (Mar 25, 2012)

fukasaku said large chakra pool needed to draw on natural energy,but kabuto said jyugo clan have a special body to draw on natural energy,and oro created cursed seal,cs is like a trick to draw on natural energy for everyone but it destroy their bodies(that's why oro wanted perfect body), natural energy makes jutsus more powerful,remember black chidori ,cs2 kimamaro and sound four's jutsus,perfectly makes sense.
maybe there are another tricks to drawn on natural energy and itachi has one of them.it can explain itachi's ilness and how itachi knew sasuke's alive after deidara fight.


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## jacamo (Mar 25, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Very true. But supposedly Sasuke is special since he was in the small percentage to survive the Curse Seal and even fewer to master it.
> 
> Kishi is setting up for a multitudes of power ups for Sasuke in order for him to surpass Madara in power as the strongest Uchiha.
> 
> ...



i just want to see some new Mangekyou douryuku at this point... or whatever the EMS offers in terms of eye techs, not Susano add-ons

but you're right about Sasuke potentially being capable of manipulating nature energy... although im not totally convinced it will happen 

Sasuke's Curse Seal had the same design as Anko, which is supposed to reflect perfect compatibility... theoretically, if Oro took over Sasuke's body he would have the body to acquire a perfect Sage Mode


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## Jeαnne (Mar 25, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> You are dead wrong, chakra is formed from stamina.
> Stamina = spiritual and physical energy
> Chakra = spiritual + physical energy, in other words the amount of spiritual energy a ninja can combine with his physical energy depending on his chakra control.
> Uchihas dont have large chakras and they dont have the bodies that can handle nature energy so they canot become Sages.


the elder brother inherited rikudou's spiritual energy, its specified that he inherited the chakra, and you come to tell me that stamina = spiritual energy+physical energy.

So tell me, how you guys only consider that only the younger brother had something special related to his chakra, when its stated that the elder inherited something too?

It may not be sage mode, but what i am saying is, it will come into play sooner or later, i would say that it will be a good explanation for the sharingan/MS/EMS in the first place.


You guys are focusing too much in "you need large chakra to use sage mode", when we are actually considering something that is not the sage mode that we know.


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## jacamo (Mar 25, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> So tell me, how you guys only consider that only the younger brother had something special related to his chakra, when its stated that the elder inherited something too?
> 
> You guys are focusing too much in "you need large chakra to use sage mode", when we are actually considering something that is not the sage mode that we know.



its plausible the Uchiha can draw nature energy too, but maybe not as much?

unlike Sage Mode, maybe this Tengu Mode only requires a small amount of nature energy? then Sasuke/Itachi could balance it with the pre-existing Susano chakra to create a new form... i dont know, thinking out loud

it might be cool if, after mixing Susano+nature energy, the Susano construct was absorbed into Sasuke/Itachi, giving them a chakra armour of sorts... smaller and more versatile, must also have chakra wings


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## Nikushimi (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Shikkotsurin is the slugs' territory; it wouldn't make sense for it to be mentioned in the same vein as the toads and the snakes otherwise, and it wouldn't make sense for the slugs- the third party of the sansukumi -to be left out in favor of more obscure summons like crows.

However, I do like the parallells between Itachi and Yatagarasu; I really think there is something to that. Yatagarasu was a spy early on, and later became a savior who put an end to war... That definitely makes me think of Itachi. Then again, most things do.


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## Goud (Mar 25, 2012)

Very good, but an essay does not have subheadings


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 26, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Did you even read the post?
> 
> Stamina =/= Chakra.
> 
> ...



Duh. I also noticed the made up numbers. I know chakra is derived from stamina. Stamina and chakra are directly related. Low stamina=low chakra. High stamina=high chakra. It is not a coincidence that Naruto has been said to have beastly chakra and has consistently ranked high on stamina (4 then 5) as has Jiraiya (5). Shikamaru and Kakashi being stated to not be chakra beasts is not coincidence when they have 2-3 stamina. 

Potent chakra=/=all Uchiha having huge chakra pools. But anyway, I will let you wallow in your own ignorance until next week when we discover amazingly that Itachi does not have Sage Mode. But keep dreaming.


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## MS81 (Mar 26, 2012)

this sucks, didn't Kabuto say these 3 places were the only secret places of summons?


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## Yachiru (Mar 27, 2012)

MAJOR UPDATE CONCERNING CROWS

_“People once believed that when someone dies, a crow carries their soul to the land of the dead. But sometimes something so bad happens that a terrible sadness is carried with it and the soul can’t rest. Then sometimes, just sometimes, *the crow can bring that soul back to put the wrong things right*"_

That describes Itachi - died in terrible sadness, now back due to ET to set things straight.

Also:

_Ravens are perhaps the most common bird symbol in the mythologies and religions of ancient cultures. They assume a variety of roles, *ranging from messengers of deities and sages* to oracles and tricksters_

A crow is also a SAGE.

_Popular folk superstitions myths are based on the belief that when someone dies, his/her soul goes to the land of the dead, in Celtic known as “Otherworld” or in some parts of Africa as “Underworld”. If someone died earlier then he/she was supposed to, *they would come back after death to complete their interrupted fate*, the murdered would return for revenge, and those who were not buried in holy grounds would return to have their coffins moved to a more peaceful place. *Dead people would return as animals*. E.A. Poe’s The Raven may serve as an illustration of this folkloristic tradition_

Read more:


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 27, 2012)

The theory is very interesting...but why?

Itachi is already powerful enough as it is with the Mangekyo Sharingan and the abilities it offers; why do you want to add a Sage Mode to the mix?  If he had one, he would not have been as worried about Kabuto having the Dragon Sage Mode as he was, because he would have been able to counter it with his own.

Whatever Shikkotsu Forest is home to, I think that it will not be a Crow Sage, and it sure as well will not be a Slug Sage.  The requirements to even practice Sage Mode successfully is to have "extreme chakra levels...specifically Jiraiya and Naruto ".  To emphasize that point, Naruto naturally has four times the amount of chakra Kakashi, a famous and powerful Jounin, has at his disposal.

In other words, not just anyone can master Sage Mode.  If anyone normal tried, they'd turn to stone in an instant.  Still, whoever is linked to Shikkotsu Forest must be someone or some group that we already know about, that much I can agree on.


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## Rikudou (Mar 27, 2012)

This is laughable. It's obviously a sanctuary for slugs. This belongs in the fanfic department.


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## Haloman (Mar 27, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> In other words, not just anyone can master Sage Mode.  *If anyone normal tried, they'd turn to stone in an instant.*  Still, whoever is linked to Shikkotsu Forest must be someone or some group that we already know about, that much I can agree on.



I think it's fairly clear that everything we "know" about Sage Mode is merely from the Frog's POV. Think about it. If people fail the Sage Mode training at Ryuchidou, do they turn into stone frogs there as well? However, we clearly know that the natural energy that Naruto absorbs needs to be balanced, and if it's not, it will turn people into stone frogs.

*I believe there must be different kinds of natural energy.* Juugo's clan absorbs natural energy regularly. This is why Juugo goes berserk. He's unable to control natural energy, and it mutates him and drives him insane. Orochimaru recognized this and sought out the reason.

Have you noticed that there are several different kinds of cursed seals? Heaven, Earth, etc.? I believe this is due to them absorbing natural energy from different sources. One from air, perhaps. Another from earth. Maybe another from water or wood.

I think it's simply a matter of frogs absorbing the natural energy that comes easiest for them (water?), and snakes absorbing the natural energy that comes easiest for them. Each will have their own differing effects, though. I think this should be obvious since Myobokuzan SM deforms people into frogs, and Ryuchidou SM deforms people towards snakes. If natural energy were entirely the same for all parties, Kabuto should look like a frog as well.

And I think it's fairly clear that the Sannin have represented Frog, Snake, and Slug throughout nearly the whole manga. Every time there are three things, that seems to be what they are. Now that we have Myobokuzan, Ryuchidou, and Shikkotsurin, you assume that it's Frog, Snake, and CROW? I mean, seriously. It's the Slug Forest. Deal with it.


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## Yachiru (Mar 27, 2012)

Rikudou said:


> This is laughable. It's obviously a sanctuary for slugs. This belongs in the fanfic department.



A humid bone forest is a place of death and decay, so slugs wouldn't find their best habitat there. Also, birds prey on slugs and snails, particularly the crow.

Shikkotsurin = Sanctuary for birds of prey (particularly crows and hawks).


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## Yachiru (Mar 27, 2012)

Haloman said:


> I think it's fairly clear that everything we "know" about Sage Mode is merely from the Frog's POV. Think about it. If people fail the Sage Mode training at Ryuchidou, do they turn into stone frogs there as well? However, we clearly know that the natural energy that Naruto absorbs needs to be balanced, and if it's not, it will turn people into stone frogs.
> 
> *I believe there must be different kinds of natural energy.* Juugo's clan absorbs natural energy regularly. This is why Juugo goes berserk. He's unable to control natural energy, and it mutates him and drives him insane. Orochimaru recognized this and sought out the reason.
> 
> ...



The slug theme was kinda obligatory to get Tsunade to fit in into this whole Sannin theme. They were themes for the Sannin themselves. And Kishi won't give Sakura any development.. she was the only one without a major power-up. The only thing she's gonna get is Byakugou.

and think that the crow is the supreme avatar of all Asian empires. The myriad of crow myths suggests the crow as a hero and *sage*, more so than any other animal. 

There is no coherent argument other than that the slug was the obligatory leftover from the Toad-Snake mythology.


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 27, 2012)

What is with the fixation on the Snake-Frog-Slug trio now that two other sanctuaries where Senjutsu can be learnt has been revealed?  People already voiced that about Team 7, but that went out the window the moment Sasuke became a 'hawk'.    

I do agree with what Yachiru stated; if the mythology is solid, then it is very likely to be a Crow Sage there.  However, what I do disagree with is Itachi having a Crow Sage Mode, or whatever it could be called.  Considering Kabuto called himself a Dragon, it's possible that a Sage who learns how to use Senjutsu from the Crow Sage would be different from a Crow as well.

While it does fit Itachi's motif, maybe he could settle with the symbol of "hero", and let the "sage" part of the Crow motif go to someone else.


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## Yachiru (Mar 27, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> What is with the fixation on the Snake-Frog-Slug trio now that two other sanctuaries where Senjutsu can be learnt has been revealed?  People already voiced that about Team 7, but that went out the window the moment Sasuke became a 'hawk'.
> 
> I do agree with what Yachiru stated; if the mythology is solid, then it is very likely to be a Crow Sage there.  However, what I do disagree with is Itachi having a Crow Sage Mode, or whatever it could be called.  Considering Kabuto called himself a Dragon, it's possible that a Sage who learns how to use Senjutsu from the Crow Sage would be different from a Crow as well.



From what we've learned, Shikkotsurin might be for birds of prey since they all leave death and bones behind. Hawks and crows prey on slugs, snails and other animals, so the poor slugs wouldn't stand a chance.

The moment Sasuke became a hawk, the old Toad-Snake-Slug theme was broken. Kishimoto didn't give Sakura or Tsunade any significant development apart from Byakugou and big talk against Madara. Especially Sakura, who always was without a major power-up, suggests that a Slug SM is utter nonsense.


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## Haloman (Mar 27, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> From what we've learned, Shikkotsurin might be for birds of prey since they all leave death and bones behind. Hawks and crows prey on slugs, snails and other animals, so the poor slugs wouldn't stand a chance.
> 
> *The moment Sasuke became a hawk, the old Toad-Snake-Slug theme was broken.* Kishimoto didn't give Sakura or Tsunade any significant development apart from Byakugou and big talk against Madara. Especially Sakura, who always was without a major power-up, suggests that a Slug SM is utter nonsense.



No, it wasn't. Just because Sasuke doesn't fit into one of the Snake-Toad-Slug camps anymore doesn't mean anything. The Snake-Toad-Slug correlation still exists. Sasuke's just outside the loop now.

Shikkotsurin is for slugs. There's absolutely no precedent to believe it's for crows. Why not cats? Why not dogs? Why not elephants?

You're totally right in your assertion that crows are huge in asian mythos, but that's why Itachi's already a part of the story. Notice all the crows he brings to the table? Shikkotsurin is gonna be for slugs. It's so obvious, it's smacking you in the face.

And it might not power up either Sakura OR Tsunade. We might simply not see a slug sage. Sage Mode is difficult to master, after all. So far, there are only three people who have been confirmed to use it in the series: Jiraiya (who didn't master it), Naruto, and Kabuto. Orochimaru gets honorable mention for apparently learning it to an extent that was far from being perfect.


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## Yachiru (Mar 27, 2012)

Haloman said:


> No, it wasn't. Just because Sasuke doesn't fit into one of the Snake-Toad-Slug camps anymore doesn't mean anything. The Snake-Toad-Slug correlation still exists. Sasuke's just outside the loop now.
> 
> Shikkotsurin is for slugs. *There's absolutely no precedent to believe it's for crows.* Why not cats? Why not dogs? Why not elephants?
> 
> ...



How can Shikkotsurin be a place for slugs without a slug sage? Crows originated from humid forests, they leave death and bones behind and so do hawks and other birds of prey. 

There is no point in a slug sage if it doesn't serve to increase the importance of certain characters. Sakura is obviously not important since she was always the odd one out, always without a major power-up. Tsunade was called the slug princess because of her slugs' great healing ability.
Considering that Jiraiya and Orochimaru were the ones with a major power-up and Tsunade was famous for her healing abilities rather than combat, it doesn't make sense for Shikkotsurin to be for slugs, since SM is combat-oriented and not necessarily healing-oriented.

A Crow/Hawk SM would make much more sense since birds of prey live in forests, they prey on animals and they leave death and bones behind. It is widely agreed upon in Asian mythos that the crow is a *sage*. It is the supreme avatar of Asia; The Uchiha and RS were associated with birds of prey - Karasu Tengu.


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 27, 2012)

The name itself is enough for a precedence.  Yachiru has already provided a boatload of evidence for the symbolism behind the Crows, including a statement of the crow being considered to be a *SAGE.*  A Sage is what one becomes when they are able to use Sage Chakra.

What is *your precedence* for the Shikkotsu Forest Sage being a...no, what makes you believe that it *has to be* a Slug Sage?  All you have is the Snake-Frog-Slug symbolism that was used for the Sannin, but Yachiru has provided a ton of information to suggest that it is a Crow Sage.  It's not as obvious as you are claiming that it is.


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## Haloman (Mar 27, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> How can Shikkotsurin be a place for slugs without a slug sage? Crows originated from humid forests, they leave death and bones behind and so do hawks and other birds of prey.
> 
> There is no point in a slug sage if it doesn't serve to increase the importance of certain characters. Sakura is obviously not important since she was always the odd one out, always without a major power-up. Tsunade was called the slug princess because of her slugs' great healing ability.
> Considering that Jiraiya and Orochimaru were the ones with a major power-up and Tsunade was famous for her healing abilities rather than combat, it doesn't make sense for Shikkotsurin to be for slugs, since SM is combat-oriented and not necessarily healing-oriented.
> ...



Look, the Toad-Snake-Slug trio has been pushed in this manga for a very long time. Why do you assume it's going to break now? Because crows leave bones behind? So do most predators. Lions. Hyenas. Bears. Dogs. Saying that it's a Crow Forest for this reason makes no logical sense other than it being driven by your deep desire for it.

Everything you keep citing about the crow being a sage as well... all of that is true. Crows are regarded very highly. ... Now tell me, what does that matter all of a sudden? Japan itself has its own belief in the Toad-Slug-Snake trio. Kishi then tells us repeatedly about the importance of the Toad-Slug-Snake trio. We're then told about three sacred places, one of which is for Toads, one of which is for Snakes, and you assume the third is for CROWS?

Lastly, have you considered that the literal translation of "humid bone forest" could be taken more euphemistically? I don't speak Japanese, but I do understand that they often have words for things that aren't meant to be literally translated. For instance, Kikoutei, which could translate to "sun emperor" is typically just a poetic way to refer to the sun. So what about "humid bones"? Could this mean watery, soft bones? Bones that aren't really bones? Almost like its describing the material used to make up a *slug's exoskeleton*.

Honestly, if it's a forest for crows, I'll come back and rep you and admit I was wrong, but there's only like a 1% chance that's going to happen.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2012)

i personally think that kishi's objective was exacly this, confuse us.


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## Marsala (Mar 27, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> i personally think that kishi's objective was exacly this, confuse us.



Yeah. The logical assumption on hearing about a third Sennin location is that it is the slugs' place, but then that's exactly what Kishimoto wants us to think. Meanwhile Tsunade is suspiciously un-Sage Mode in a situation where she ought to be using it, Itachi is suspiciously knowledgeable about natural energy, and by the rules of shonen battle manga the Uchiha brothers will have to pull out some fantastic new ability beyond Susano'o in this battle to counter Kabuto...


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## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Yeah. The logical assumption on hearing about a third Sennin location is that it is the slugs' place, but then that's exactly what Kishimoto wants us to think. Meanwhile Tsunade is suspiciously un-Sage Mode in a situation where she ought to be using it, Itachi is suspiciously knowledgeable about natural energy, and by the rules of shonen battle manga the Uchiha brothers will have to pull out some fantastic new ability beyond Susano'o in this battle to counter Kabuto...


without forget the foreshadowing in pages relating to a possible hawk/bird sage mode.

i mean, when the autor takes his time actually drawing something for cover, he doesnt take it out of nowhere and throw there randomly, he means something.


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## Guiness (Mar 27, 2012)

lol.

This is quite a solid theory and IMO really throws the notion of some Tengu-power related theme.

That being said, however, I do not believe its some Crow Sage Mode, but rather something related to the power of the Uchiha eyes. Some type of summon or power-up for Susano'o? Who knows but the idea of some Crow Sage mode isn't that appealing. Furthermore, what if the Humid Bone Forest is where Itachi gained his Sword of Totsuka? Orochimaru looked for it all his life but could not find it. What if he visited the Humid Bone Forest but could not 'see' it because he didn't the exact requirements? It wouldn't be the first time as we learned in the last chapter.

Because of this theory, I'm leaning towards it being Tengu related. Tengus have a prominent roles in Japanese mythos. Seeing how Susano'o seems to be a big thing, especially Sasuke's EMS version, why not make a big mark of importance on it during the fight? I believe the fight will reveal some crucial details to the Uchiha origin and ability, as well as some more legend.

The manga may end soon, but Kishi is still leaving some solid material as food for thought. We may not like his manga all the time, but he is a solid writer and knows how to work his manga. 

Props Yachiru. I would +rep but the rep system ain't working.


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## Guiness (Mar 27, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> without forget the foreshadowing in pages relating to a possible hawk/bird sage mode.
> 
> i mean, when the autor takes his time actually drawing something for cover, he doesnt take it out of nowhere and throw there randomly, he means something.



Exactly. Some months before, he drew a cover of Sasuke in some tengu related appearance.

I always thought that Sasuke would become a more formidable oppenent if he somehow gained a Susano'o cloak like how Naruto has his BCM cloak. It would allow for more quicker, fluid movement and tighter defense and he would be less of a target.

And with wings lol. Naruto has his extreme speed while Sasuke has his flight. Not a suitable comparison but it does make one think I suppose.


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 27, 2012)

For all we know, it could not actually be Tengu or Uchiha related, at least not directly.  We know that the Sage of Six Paths is called...Well, a Sage, but what does that mean?  Is it only a title given to him after he saved the world from the Juubi while in possession of the Rinnegan, or is the meaning deeper?  Was the Sage of Six Paths an actual Sage in the past?

We do not know exactly how old the White Snake Sage and Great Toad Sage are, but it makes me wonder if Shikkotsu Forest is where the Sage of Six Paths himself became a Sage.  If there is any kind of connection to the Uchiha Clan, and the if it turns out the Sword of Totsuka was actually there, it is probable that only those with Doujutsu can find and enter Shikkotsu Forest.

That could potentially open up multiple paths for the nature of Shikkotsu Forest, even a connection to the Hyuga Clan, whose Byakugan has the greatest insight of all Doujutsu.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 27, 2012)

foreign said:


> lol.
> 
> This is quite a solid theory and IMO really throws the notion of some Tengu-power related theme.
> 
> ...



YES, thats what i have been talking about, it would not really be a sage mode separated but something about the powers inherited by the elder brother! Would be literally like a sage mode completly based in the eyes/spiritual energy inherited by the elder brother.

The susanoo would pretty much be still the "incomplete" power compared to what they are supposed to archieve when they finally get there, you know?

we have yet to know the true origin of the uchiha powers and this is a really good opportunity, im my mind the uchihas would ascend to the point where they finally get to what the elder brother had, so if rikudou really had something related to sage mode and something from this was inherited by the elder brother, the ultimate goal of the uchiha bloodline would be reach it.

a "tengu" sage mode, which involves the eye powers in special too, sharingan, MS, EMS would be stages of the diluted tengu sage mode, they are steps.

It would totally explain what the susanoo really is, imo, the enton, the genjutsu abilities. Lol it would even explain tobi's abilities! Dont people see that the uchiha powers need a source? That the MS jutsus are not normal stuff? 

Uchiha powers are pretty much kitsune/tengu powers.


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## Guiness (Mar 27, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> For all we know, it could not actually be Tengu or Uchiha related, at least not directly.  We know that the Sage of Six Paths is called...Well, a Sage, but what does that mean?  Is it only a title given to him after he saved the world from the Juubi while in possession of the Rinnegan, or is the meaning deeper?  Was the Sage of Six Paths an actual Sage in the past?
> 
> We do not know exactly how old the White Snake Sage and Great Toad Sage are, but it makes me wonder if Shikkotsu Forest is where the Sage of Six Paths himself became a Sage.  *If there is any kind of connection to the Uchiha Clan, and the if it turns out the Sword of Totsuka was actually there, it is probable that only those with Doujutsu can find and enter Shikkotsu Forest.
> 
> That could potentially open up multiple paths for the nature of Shikkotsu Forest, even a connection to the Hyuga Clan, whose Byakugan has the greatest insight of all Doujutsu.*



@Underlined: A bit far-fetched and unnecessary IMO but its possible. 

@bold: That is a pretty good thought and it could possibly even be a way to make the BYakugan relevant to the story without it being out of blue.



Jeαnne said:


> YES, thats what i have been talking about, it would not really be a sage mode separated but something about the powers inherited by the elder brother! Would be literally like a sage mode completly based in the eyes/spiritual energy inherited by the elder brother.
> 
> The susanoo would pretty much be still the "incomplete" power compared to what they are supposed to archieve when they finally get there, you know?
> 
> ...



I would rep you but NF is playing around. That is some good thinking and is along the lines of what I was thinking about as well.


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## jacamo (Mar 28, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> For all we know, it could not actually be Tengu or Uchiha related, at least not directly.  We know that the Sage of Six Paths is called...Well, a Sage, but what does that mean?  Is it only a title given to him after he saved the world from the Juubi while in possession of the Rinnegan, or is the meaning deeper?  Was the Sage of Six Paths an actual Sage in the past?
> 
> We do not know exactly how old the White Snake Sage and Great Toad Sage are, but it makes me wonder if Shikkotsu Forest is where the Sage of Six Paths himself became a Sage.  If there is any kind of connection to the Uchiha Clan, and the if it turns out the Sword of Totsuka was actually there, it is probable that only those with Doujutsu can find and enter Shikkotsu Forest.
> 
> That could potentially open up multiple paths for the nature of Shikkotsu Forest, even a connection to the Hyuga Clan, whose Byakugan has the greatest insight of all Doujutsu.





Jeαnne said:


> YES, thats what i have been talking about, it would not really be a sage mode separated but something about the powers inherited by the elder brother! Would be literally like a sage mode completly based in the eyes/spiritual energy inherited by the elder brother.
> 
> The susanoo would pretty much be still the "incomplete" power compared to what they are supposed to archieve when they finally get there, you know?
> 
> ...



good posts


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## Yachiru (Mar 28, 2012)

Haloman said:


> Look, the Toad-Snake-Slug trio has been pushed in this manga for a very long time. Why do you assume it's going to break now? *Because crows leave bones behind?* So do most predators. Lions. Hyenas. Bears. Dogs. Saying that it's a Crow Forest for this reason makes no logical sense other than it being driven by your deep desire for it.
> 
> Everything you keep citing about the crow being a sage as well... all of that is true. Crows are regarded very highly. ... Now tell me, what does that matter all of a sudden? Japan itself has its own belief in the Toad-Slug-Snake trio. Kishi then tells us repeatedly about the importance of the Toad-Slug-Snake trio. We're then told about three sacred places, one of which is for Toads, one of which is for Snakes, and you assume the third is for CROWS?
> 
> ...



No, because crows in particular are associated with humidity and death. The crow is the only bird of prey that originated from the rainforest of the Old World.

The crow in mythology is regarded as the *creator of heavens and earth*, a supreme sage that taught humans the arts. The crow was known as the savior of the Japanese people. The Crow branch of Karasu Tengu were teachers of Ninjutsu. Clearly the crow is heavily associated with Rikudou Sennin here. That's why it matters so much.

Also, "Shikkotsurin" is made out of three words. The one is "shimeru" (湿る), which means wet, "hone" (骨) which means bone or skeleton (literally) and "rin" (林), the forest.

Shikkotsu-rin translates into "A bone forest which is wet". It's not the bones themselves that are wet, but the entire forest. Wet forests are typically *rainforests* and the wood of these forests is as solid as bones. 
Crows originated from rainforests. 

This is why the crow matters so much now. Not because of the Toad-Snake-Slug theme, but because of the relationship of crows and dragons/snakes in particular.
The dragon is the crow's mortal enemy. All flesh-eating birds (hawks, crows, other avians) prey on snakes and the snakes prey on them. 

Shikkotsurin is the place for the birds of prey.


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## jacamo (Mar 28, 2012)

i hope youre right Yachiru

would prefer the Tengu symbolism and mythology to the Slug shit anyday


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (Apr 1, 2012)

Firstly don't we all think Itachi is strong enough, Why give him even more power. 

Secondly, If Kishi does pull this NF is gonna go into Nuke mode. Also it would be very very pullled out of the ass. I would find it rather odd. 

Thirdly, it being Slug village makes more sense. After all the Slug-Snake-Frog-Slug is suppose to work this way, SO it does make sense.


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## Rosencrantz (Apr 1, 2012)

If only Itachi had a strong body for it... oh well.


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## Mister (Apr 1, 2012)

It either links to the slugs, thematically. Or it links to Kimimaro (only mentioned him due to the name 'bone forest' and the fact his face markings match the elder brother).

However it is doubtless that it doesn't link to Itachi at all.


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## DremolitoX (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't know if somebody pointed it out or not, but...



The guy definitely looks crowish. Probably a bird mode user.


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## Mister (Apr 1, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> I don't know if somebody pointed it out or not, but...
> 
> 
> 
> The guy definitely looks crowish. Probably a bird mode user.



Nothing there at all looks like a crow mode.


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## 青月光 (Apr 3, 2012)

I just love this thread. 

You?ve got very good arguments and very logical thinking, a shame some people in this forum can?t understand this kind of thinking, moreover give logical arguments to refute this untouchable theory.

Very good job OP.

If i could i would give this thread 10 stars and not only 5


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## Battoumaru (Apr 4, 2012)

Mister said:


> Nothing there at all looks like a crow mode.



Sennin Mode seems to always have some sort of darkening effect with the eyes. If you look, he has similar dark markings as Naruto and Kabuto do when they use their respective Sennin Modes.


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## BlinkST (Apr 4, 2012)

Kabuto's whole eye actually darkens like that of a curse user. The side painting like Orichimaru is likely insignificant and not part of Sage mode. Though I do agree on speculation that elder bro could have been a sage mode user.


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