# Akainu vs Katakuri and Marco



## Vivo Diez (Sep 28, 2018)

*Location:* Marineford
*Knowledge and state:* As much as they would canonically know about each other, everyone's in full bloodlust mode
*Starting distance:* 50 meters


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 28, 2018)

Akainu

and i think Katas non hakified mochi would simply melt in Akainus presence

Reactions: Like 5


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## Extravlad (Sep 28, 2018)

Katakuri pummeled Luffy for hours and couldn't put him down.

He's not doing anything to Akainu.


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## MO (Sep 28, 2018)

akainu extreme diff.. maybe...


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## Steven (Sep 28, 2018)

Both get fisted


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## Mob (Sep 28, 2018)

Absolute justice wins

Reactions: Like 2


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## MO (Sep 28, 2018)

Actually I change my mind the duo win.


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## Garcher (Sep 28, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Akainu
> 
> and i think Katas non hakified mochi would simply melt in Akainus presence


This is a spite thread. Akainu easily wins.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Garcher (Sep 28, 2018)

Can they even hurt him?

Reactions: Like 7


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## OceanusAsteria (Sep 28, 2018)

individually they're prob mid diff material, together akainu wins high diff


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## Mob (Sep 28, 2018)

My answer was to short in my first post so I will explain why I think Akainu wins, BM can solo her whole crew and together they are above this duo, Akainu is above  BM so yeah this fight doesnt end well for first mates.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Sep 28, 2018)

Big mom is able to beat her crew because of a specific ability( soul pocus) without the fear. we don't know if she can.
Akanu being above Big mom is a baseless statement.


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## Furinji Saiga (Sep 28, 2018)

What does burnt Mochi and phoenix taste like? 


They stand no chance, Marco alongside all the WB remnants had nothing they could do against a heavily injured Akainu. 

His ability is just too much for them, eventually Marco's regneration runs out and Katakuri gets fisted. This man is a machine that can go on forever.

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## Furinji Saiga (Sep 28, 2018)

Ye Xiu said:


> Can they even hurt him?



No, and even if we give the wrongful assumption that they could, what do they have that can take him down?

This is a man that took two full powered Quakes to the face and recovered, a man who can fight for 10 days against a similiar leveled and devastating logia.

They have nothing to phase him.

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## Kylo Ren (Sep 28, 2018)

Akainu extreme diff. Only because I don't see any offense from the two FM that can really hurt Akainu like wB did but don't pretend like Katakuri's attack will have 0 dmg to Akainu your delusional if you think that and just like I always see whenever Marco is fighting eventually his regeneration runs out but for how long? too some who donwplay him think maybe only hours but for me he can go on for days. Now Akainu have devastating attack but he can not hurt Marco too or else show me a panel where admirals got an upperhand with Marco without distraction. None.

This is a long fight maybe days but in the end Akainu is too much his durability is insane and his offense > those of the FM.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 28, 2018)

Katakuri is an awful person to have behind you when you're dealing with someone who is able to canonically keep you at bay and laugh off attacks of even Akainu's caliber. The guy wastes a massive amount of Haki defending himself from two people at once and eventually dies from their onslaught. Good luck killing a phoenix and CoO master with numerical advantage in the meantime, too

Mid-diff

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## Vivo Diez (Sep 29, 2018)

I agree with everyone that's said Akainu wins. People put too much strength in numbers, when Akainu himself has showed that it's irrelevant by taking on the majority of WB's commanders + first mate, after having taken in direct hits from WB.

Marco at best managed to stall for a little bit, without being able to inflict any damage. I don't see how with the addition of Katakuri they could suddenly push him to extreme diff or win. Even if with their combined efforts they actually get past his defense and injure him, what do they have that compares with WB's quake punches?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 29, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Katakuri is an awful person to have behind you when you're dealing with someone who is able to canonically keep you at bay and laugh off attacks of even Akainu's caliber. The guy wastes a massive amount of Haki defending himself from two people at once and eventually dies from their onslaught. Good luck killing a phoenix and CoO master with numerical advantage in the meantime, too
> 
> Mid-diff



Pretty much this. 

Akainu gets his ass kicked.


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## Gledania (Sep 29, 2018)

Aka inu Extreme diff.

He got advantage on Kata mochi.


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## Vivo Diez (Sep 29, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> when you're dealing with someone who is able to canonically keep you at bay and laugh off attacks of even Akainu's caliber.
> Mid-diff


Huh? Marco + the commanders couldn't keep him at bay, what are you on about? They kept throwing themselves at him and he kept pushing through.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 29, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Huh? Marco + the commanders couldn't keep him at bay, what are you on about? They kept throwing themselves at him and he kept pushing through.



Before or after he was assisted by the marines?

When he was at full strength and before even getting struck down by Whitebeard, Jinbei managed to briefly hold him back. Marco and Vista then saved him with their combination attack, while Akainu claims that it isn't fun to fight Haki users. That goes along with what we're shown of the weaker commanders, as you clearly see Curiel and the weaker ones attacking Akainu - only to call him unstoppable - so their presence in the fight is nothing more than being temporary meatshields. When Akainu makes his pursuit toward Luffy by propelling himself, Marco effortlessly engages him and stops him in his tracks. Mind you, Marco is the reason why Whitebeard managed to land attacks on Akainu.

After he was attacked by Whitebeard?

We see that he had an off-panel confrontation with the commanders for a few minutes before he was assisted by half of the marines, which seems to be when he started gaining control. None of us can say what happened during that off-panel fight, but I can assure you that Marco and Vista won't be taking down Akainu in just a few minutes. The others are absolutely meaningless in the discussion, considering a certain level of power is needed to be relevant against Akainu.

We're literally shown back-to-back panels of that power when the top commanders are relevant and the weaker commanders are irrelevant. The rest of Marineford is just a clusterfuck after this point, but we do have an idea of strength levels from the powerful characters on some level.

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## DA hawk (Sep 29, 2018)

2 yonkou first mates > 1 admiral.

Onepiece 101


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## KBD (Sep 29, 2018)

Akainu takes it. If a yonko is supposed to be able to trash their own crew, then I don't see why the top admiral couldn't take down two first mates.

Gura blackbeard who already thought the world of himself bounced with his crew the moment he heard Akainu is on his way while saying that that's just too much.


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## Gohara (Sep 29, 2018)

That team wins that match up because Lord Katakuri can consistently strategize against Akainu's techniques and Marco can consistently utilize his abilities for defense when those strategies don't avoid lava allowing that team to spam offensive techniques against Akainu.


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## Mylesime (Sep 29, 2018)

mob said:


> My answer was to short in my first post so I will explain why I think Akainu wins, BM can solo her whole crew and together they are above this duo, Akainu is above  BM so yeah this fight doesnt end well for first mates.



  I have never understood this claim. 
Perospero perfectly explained their dilemma When BM was about to eat the cake. The citizens explained the same thing. They need her she's at the core of the whole empire.
How are you supposed to stop such a beast without hurting her  ( cf chopper and his monster point at sabaondy or ennies lobby but 100 times worse).
The mere fact that they were trying to prevent Capone from killing her contradicts the idea thay her army couldn't put her Down if they wanted to kill her.
The story doesn't make sense with such an assumption.
  For the same reason Aka inu looses here.  High diff' i'd say; no one is beating two luffys on his own at this point of the story (except Ym or whatever is his name).
Marineford doesn't make any sense if we scale the strength of the comanders; the yonko; and the admirals like that.

   And let's not act like luffy's still breathing isn't due to plot shield and nothing else; after his power up in haki and the introduction of snakeman he was still on pare with the commander. .....  the same guy who failed to put him down in his base forms for hours.  
We could say that aka inu assisted by kizaru and ao kiji failed to kill luffy at marineford pre skip without taking into account that luffy cannot die at any point in the story.


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## God Movement (Sep 29, 2018)

@Erkan12


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## GilDLax (Sep 30, 2018)

Don King said:


> some who donwplay him think maybe only hours but for me he can go on for days.


That doesn't mean his regeneration though. It's canon he had a bandage after the War and the War lasted for few hours or half a day at best.



King Itachi said:


> canonically keep you at bay


fanfically.

He literally fought Akainu with Vista and later all the WB Commanders (except obvious people who couldn't participate like Ace, Thatch and Jozu but you get that anw). 

As for Kizaru and Aokiji he kicked them. Nothing was shown about him 1vs1 them...


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 30, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> That doesn't mean his regeneration though. It's canon he had a bandage after the War and the War lasted for few hours or half a day at best.


I forgot about that. 


GilDLax said:


> As for Kizaru and Aokiji he kicked them. Nothing was shown about him 1vs1 them...


Yeah, but during their encounter Marco get the best of Kizaru.


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## Bernkastel (Sep 30, 2018)

Um the duo wins.
Luffy barely beating Katakuri earned the pseudo title of a yonkou...i know he's not a real one but still the hype for first mates is huge for 2 of them to lose to a single admiral/yonkou.
BB beating Marco also earned him the title of the yonkou.
First mates are closer to the admirals/yonkou than most seem to think.
Canonically every admiral had trouble putting down Marco in the war and even handcuffed and weakened he survived Kizaru's attacks meaning he's more than just his regen.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 30, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> How did he get the best of Kizaru?
> What does "getting the best of" mean for you here? Is it that he pushed him back? Please explain.


During those little fight he got the upperhand just Kizaru and Marco head on.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 30, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> I asked you to explain which specific things make you think he got the upperhand in that encounter and why.


they clash and Kizaru got push back.


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## GilDLax (Sep 30, 2018)

Don King said:


> Yeah, but during their encounter Marco get the best of Kizaru.


And? It doesn't mean he is able to keep him at bay. At best it means Marco is physically stronger than Kizaru, but physical combat is not the only way of combat. Kizaru could just shoot wide-range laser and move around instead of engaging Marco pointlessly, for example. I may be stronger than my friend, but give a machine gun and I don't think I can keep him at bay without killing anyone else in a room. Admirals could just attack other guys and keep an eye on Marco and dodge him or no-sell him as his kicks never damage any of them. 

And I don't even think Marco was getting the best of Kizaru. Kizaru was kicked down but Marco also lost ''energy'' for regeneration. For all we know that barrage of laser filled 1/3 of his regen limit bar. In fact that was the strongest technique Marco took in the War. When Marco is out of regen he would be turkey dish sooner or later.

Finally, your logic is like ''in the first 5 minutes this football team led by 1-0''. That doesn't mean they would definitely win nor does it show actual superiority. They might end up getting defeated 1-5 after 90 minutes for all we know...
In-verse there are a lot of examples:
-Pre-TSG2Luffy bazooka Magellan. Then get stomped.
-G2Luffy also got the best of DD with Red Hawk then got kicked in the face, tied, and slashed by Bellamy (if Bellamy wasn't there DD would just have used his thread clone)
-Caesar could get the best of anyone really, if the opponent doesn't have prior knowledge, when he uses Breathless Zone (if someone with huge lung capacity like Luffy got choked then pretty much no one had a chance unless their body make-up or DF power is even more special and lets them deal with that)
-Blueno and Chinjao were fighting Luffy equally (Chinjao even managed to last few chapters). Then Luffy brought out G2 and Thor Elephant Gun and one-shot both respectively. In hindsight we know Chinjao was small fry to Luffy because Luffy had G4 and he wasn't even that tired meaning Chinjao didn't even push G2 to extreme-diff...

My point? Merely 1 exchange doesn't say much unless it's an actual one-shot. Marco didn't one-shot Kizaru. Hell, he didn't even cause any damage (look at Kong Gun vs DD. That's what we call damage). Kizaru was poised and standing like nothing happened. I'm not sure how Marco was impressive for you people when even Usopp could damage Luffy a bit before going down convincingly in Water Seven...

And Kizaru was clearly disadvantageous because he doesn't have foothold on air whereas Marco is a flying bird with momentum charging at him. It's simple physics, really. Go to a boxing gym and see if moving/punching a hanging sandbag is easier than when it's on the ground...

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## nyugimon (Sep 30, 2018)

this won't even be a warmup for akainu. he'll just kill them and go back to  ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶u̶r̶b̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ sleep .


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## Gohara (Sep 30, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> That doesn't mean they would definitely win nor does it show actual superiority.



True however it is one of a lot of examples of high ranking yonkou commanders matching up on par with admirals thus although it is true that the idea of clashes like that aren't necessarily the same as suggesting that those characters are even Oda consistently having characters around those rank clash evenly is a point.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 30, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> And? It doesn't mean he is able to keep him at bay. At best it means Marco is physically stronger than Kizaru, but physical combat is not the only way of combat. Kizaru could just shoot wide-range laser and move around instead of engaging Marco pointlessly, for example. I may be stronger than my friend, but give a machine gun and I don't think I can keep him at bay without killing anyone else in a room. Admirals could just attack other guys and keep an eye on Marco and dodge him or no-sell him as his kicks never damage any of them.
> 
> And I don't even think Marco was getting the best of Kizaru. Kizaru was kicked down but Marco also lost ''energy'' for regeneration. For all we know that barrage of laser filled 1/3 of his regen limit bar. In fact that was the strongest technique Marco took in the War. When Marco is out of regen he would be turkey dish sooner or later.
> 
> ...


and what makes you think that Kizaru can keep Marco at bay? show me where he got Marco without help. and your assuming how Marco's power work. Laser him as much as you like but we saw how Marco just straight up no sell those laser.


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## GilDLax (Oct 1, 2018)

Don King said:


> and what makes you think that Kizaru can keep Marco at bay?


...
I never say I think that? Literally the opposite, I just proposed how Kizaru doesn't need to care much about Marco because Marco's offense is lackluster anw and employs a dodging tactic instead of engaging Marco pointlessly (better focus on Katakuri since that guy doesn't have regeneration)...

And it's not even the point being discussed.* YOU ARE* the one thinking Marco can keep Kizaru at bay just because he ''bested'' Kizaru in *one* clash and we're debating that. At least finish that first then you can ask me about other things. Don't flip the topic and shift burden of proof!

Come on, kinda old in 2018 to use this _''begging unrelated question''_ tactic




Don King said:


> and your assuming how Marco's power work.


Oda canonically stated in SBS his regeneration has limit and you just admitted you forgot Marco had a bandage after the War...




Don King said:


> Laser him as much as you like but we saw how Marco just straight up no sell those laser.


Because his regen has not run out at the time...are you trying to make me captain obvious?





Gohara said:


> True however it is one of a lot of examples of high ranking yonkou commanders matching up on par with admirals thus although it is true that the idea of clashes like that aren't necessarily the same as suggesting that those characters are even
> 
> Oda consistently having characters around those rank clash evenly is a point.


Which is a non-point given the whole first part of your post (that I separated into the first paragraph in the quote).

You just admitted from a pure logic standpoint what I say is true, that a mere clash doesn't say much.
I also gave several actual in-verse examples where the fights start out equal but end up one-sided because one fighter is not serious or doesn't bring out his better moves at the beginning or lacks knowledge.
Logic supports it, in-verse canon supports it, which means being equal (or even superior) for few seconds/minutes at the start of a fight means literally nothing when it comes to predicting the final outcome or over power level. The only thing it means is they can't one-shot each other using those techniques.

What's left to doubt? If you understand that much then you shoulnd't say it's a point unless you just want to cling to the idea they should be even for the sake of it. It's like someone who knows full well A doesn't necessarily lead to B yet still insist it must mean something.

Besides, of course Oda consistently shows they clash evenly if the Commanders are that strong. By your logic a character has to one-shot or defeat or overwhelm another character immediately otherwise they are equal/comparable. Why do you think there are even different levels of difficulty? The whole point of them is to tell you between extreme-diff and one-shot there exists low, mid, high-diff. Jozu and Marco's being able to hold out vs Admirals for quite some time only means they are not fodders or low-diff material.


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## Rasendori (Oct 1, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Katakuri pummeled Luffy for hours and *Wouldn't* put him down.
> 
> He's not doing anything to Akainu.



fixed.

I agree Akainu wins, but let's not pretend that the  first 3/4 of the Luffy Kata fight was the most bullshit plot armor induced fight of the series.


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 1, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> ...
> I never say I think that? Literally the opposite, I just proposed how Kizaru doesn't need to care much about Marco because Marco's offense is lackluster anw and employs a dodging tactic instead of engaging Marco pointlessly (better focus on Katakuri since that guy doesn't have regeneration)...
> 
> And it's not even the point being discussed.* YOU ARE* the one thinking Marco can keep Kizaru at bay just because he ''bested'' Kizaru in *one* clash and we're debating that. At least finish that first then you can ask me about other things. Don't flip the topic and shift burden of proof!
> ...


and as devastating Kizaru's attack it's also useless against Marco as we seen in MF arc. you are acting as if Marco is Apoo just after 1 blow the next thing will going to happen is Kizaru winning it all which doesn't make sense unless you think because of his title the Admiral position you come the conclusion his stronger than Marco. Where we have a panel to gauge them and Marco look more superior to him during their brief 1 on 1.

Oda said Marco's ability have limit. Okay. but you saying he used 1/3 of his regen is not true. we all know that it was you who made that up.

and finally where did we see Marco's regeneration run out on panel? None. that is why you keep holding to this sooner or later he will run out of regeneration because if it's not Marco > Kizaru as we seen in MF war. this is why I ask you without distraction when is Kizaru having the upperhnd against Marco? none.

BTW what is this focus on Katakuri thing? first of all he can't even deal with MArco alone and you think he can fight both first mate?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Oct 2, 2018)

Akainu wins. Significantly superior portrayal, superior fighting capability, far better battle tactics (given how well he decieved the WB alliance), and attack AOE.


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## Gohara (Oct 2, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> You just admitted from a pure logic standpoint what I say is true, that a mere clash doesn't say much.



However that is about a clash, in admirals vs. high ranking yonkou commanders we're discussing a lot of clashes.



GilDLax said:


> I also gave several actual in-verse examples where the fights start out equal



I don't disagree however it seems coincidental how those would always apply in admirals vs. high ranking yonkou commanders clashes thus it is coincidental or Oda wants us to think that admirals and high ranking yonkou commanders are around the same league.



GilDLax said:


> Besides, of course Oda consistently shows they clash evenly if the Commanders are that strong. By your logic a character has to one-shot or defeat or overwhelm another character immediately otherwise they are equal/comparable.



We've seen a yonkou show a decisive edge against a high ranking yonkou commander in Luffy.  We've also seen a battle worn version of Ace's character with a more impressive performance at the beginning of a clash against Aokiji than a fully healed version of Ace's character's implied performance against a sleeping version of a yonkou.  

@ cosmos

My reply to gildlax is basically a reply to your post also.


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## Gohara (Oct 2, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> Also, even if you take the apparent consistent recurrence of clashes between YCs and Admirals as saying something independent of the contents of those clashes, how do you prove or show it's not a coincidence or a natural consequence of the fact that the YCs outnumbered the Admirals and the Admirals outnumbered the Yonkou, instead of Oda trying to tell us something in a very oblique and vague way?



I can't disprove that it is a coincidence and we've seen clashes between those ranks in various situations so I don't think that outnumbering has to do with anything.


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## GilDLax (Oct 3, 2018)

Gohara said:


> However that is about a clash, in admirals vs. high ranking yonkou commanders we're discussing a lot of clashes.


Still doesn't change a thing. 

1. Unless you're protagonist or plot-propelled characters with the huge privilege of improving drastically during fight, or on the other end of the spectrum you're nerfed, of course your power doesn't shoot up or lower willy-nilly. Ergo it naturally follows that we have several similar clashes through out since both the YC and the Admirals' power level don't change during the short few hours of the War. If their power level and abilities and situation don't change, why would the result change? You're talking as if just because there are a lot of occasions it must mean something whereas it's just obvious things would end up like that

2. Those classes are all vs different Admirals. Marco had 1 clash each. You would at least have a tiny point if it was vs the same Admirals. This is like if I can sucker punch Bruce Lee then I can sucker punch a few more famous martial artists. This doesn't change the fact that if I had stayed and fought 1 of them for extended amount of time I will end up beaten to a pulp...




Gohara said:


> *it seems* coincidental how those would always apply in admirals vs. high ranking yonkou commanders clashes *thus it is* coincidental


Bold: is that translated as ''my headcanon>logic''?




Gohara said:


> or Oda wants us to think that admirals and high ranking yonkou commanders are around the same league.


Oda sure doesn't want us to think Chinjao and Blueno were on the same league as Luffy LOL 
The only difference is the War is...well, a war, not 1vs1 tournament so he couldn't just have them duke it out so it would eat up screen time. But he made sure the Admirals are portrayed better because:

1. They all had clashes vs WB who is canonically>his Commanders. By your logic they are equal to WSM LOL
2. Marco and Jozu both have bruises. As insignificant as those are, they still have it whereas Admirals don't.
3. Marco and Jozu and even WB did blindside Admirals so it's not unfair Admirals did that back to them. But the difference is Marco and Jozu are beaten fast and WB lost half a head if blindsided , whereas the Admirals either got no damage or a cut lip or probably a broken ribcage which Akainu deemed irrelevant and went on fighting the whole Commander line-up.

So LOL no, Oda didn't want us to think they are the same league




Gohara said:


> We've seen a yonkou show a decisive edge against a high ranking yonkou commander in Luffy. We've also seen a battle worn version of Ace's character with a more impressive performance at the beginning of a clash against Aokiji than a fully healed version of Ace's character's implied performance against a sleeping version of a yonkou.


We didn't. G4's Kong Gun was equal to BM's elbow block. Luffy's losing strength after that was because he canceled G4...

Evidence Ace didn't get stronger? He had the same potential level as Luffy so he improves fast. In fact despite Luffy doing a lot of crazy things, the Marines deemed it was Ace that posed the biggest threat. Chinjao also didn't give a darn about Luffy yet fully admitted Marines was right to kill Ace if they didn't want another PK. Of course Chinjao was wrong about Luffy's power but point is Ace was that amazing.

And again, you seem to conveniently forget that the Admirals also had equal clash vs WB LOL. Don't selectively picking your evidence




Don King said:


> and as devastating Kizaru's attack it's also useless against Marco as we seen in MF arc. you are acting as if Marco is Apoo just after 1 blow the next thing will going to happen is Kizaru winning it all which doesn't make sense unless you think because of his title the Admiral position you come the conclusion his stronger than Marco. Where we have a panel to gauge them and Marco look more superior to him during their brief 1 on 1.


Point it would not be useless forever...

Except I never said he was like Apoo. Don't put words into my mouth!




Don King said:


> Oda said Marco's ability have limit. Okay. but you saying he used 1/3 of his regen is not true. we all know that it was you who made that up.


...
I worded my post very carefully. It was just an example, I even said *''for all we know''*. We know canonically Marco's limit was reached after the War, and considering the attacks he took during the War, we saw that Kizaru's barrage of laser was the biggest and strongest he took by far (it even blew his head) plus 4 other single laser attacks. So it is an educated guess that Marco had to use up a lot of his DF power to heal what Kizaru caused to him and Kizaru pretty much can do that Yasakani mirror technique casually (he got another one later in the War and by that time the guy still looked as fresh as 100%)

I didn't say it was 1/3 definitively. Please read carefully and don't twist what I said just so you can attack Strawman or any other kind of distracting the conversaiton from the point you have to argue




Don King said:


> and finally where did we see Marco's regeneration run out on panel? None.



When he had a bandage and few bruises in the War LOL



Don King said:


> that is why you keep holding to this sooner or later he will run out of regeneration because if it's not Marco > Kizaru as we seen in MF war.


I like how we went back to the start without you addressing my argument and just be a broken record instead. 
Marco's limit is canon. He didn't do damage to Kizaru is canon. So your ''>" sign at best only means he is physically stronger (and that is ignoring the fact that Kizaru was disadvantageous without foothold on air which you never dared to refute) but that's why I reasoned Kizaru doesn't have to give a darn about him.




Don King said:


> BTW what is this focus on Katakuri thing? first of all he can't even deal with MArco alone and you think he can fight both first mate?



He can't deal damage to Marco. Not that he can't deal with Marco by tactically choosing who he should focus between the two. Nice being obtuse!


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## Sherlōck (Oct 3, 2018)

Think of it like this,

>> Luffy beat Katakuri.
>> He will beat Kaido with possibly some help.
>> After that he is either fighting RoX Captain or Meme or an Admiral. 
>> More so he might fight Meme or an Admiral after he fights Rox Captain.
>> Fight against Akainu will be either after this or even later.

And during this course he will keep growing stronger. Akainu will either be his final or penultimate fight. So yeah, sure First Mates are a threat against top tiers. 

Akainu destroys them.


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## GilDLax (Oct 3, 2018)

There's a reason Marine HQ + Shichibukai ~ Yonkou

If each Admiral is not significantly stronger than First Mates how the fuck can you expect what Garp and several other knowledgeable characters (like DD or Fuji) said to be true?

Hell if the Shichibukai are at their prime and with full crews they would make that a greater than sign.


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## Gohara (Oct 3, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Unless you're protagonist or plot-propelled characters with the huge privilege of improving drastically during fight, or on the other end of the spectrum you're nerfed, of course your power doesn't shoot up or lower willy-nilly.



That isn't a rule and it doesn't explain the coincidence of it happening a lot specifically in clashes between high ranking yonkou commanders and admirals.  Your argument is something that makes sense if applied occasionally however it doesn't make a lot of sense as an explanation for a lot of clashes because it isn't likely to draw the same paper out of a bowl 1,700 times consecutively.  If every characters clashing with other characters were that way then it would make some sense however there are a lot of clashes not like that.



GilDLax said:


> This is like if I can sucker punch Bruce Lee then I can sucker punch a few more famous martial artists.



Except Marco's character didn't sucker punch those characters.  Kizaru and Marco clashed and Marco sent Kizaru flying.  If a character had a fist to fist clash with Bruce Lee and sent Bruce Lee flying and then did the same thing to a lot of other famous martial artists I wouldn't think that it is a coincidence.  It suggests that it is skills based.  Especially if a mangaka is writing those clashes because that mangaka would have a lot of opportunities to showcase superiority from the admirals if he wants us to think that they're significantly superior and yet for some reason that has yet to be the case.



GilDLax said:


> is that translated as ''my headcanon>logic''?



What is it that you mean?  Those are descriptions of things that have happened in One Piece.  The idea of it being a coincidence is obviously not what I'm arguing and is actually what I'm arguing against.  There is no suggestion about it being interpretation.  



GilDLax said:


> Oda sure doesn't want us to think Chinjao and Blueno were on the same league as Luffy



Luffy starts that clash with a punch against Blueno and makes Blueno bleed which is something that the admirals haven't done at all against a high ranking yonkou commander at the beginning of a clash or at all without having advantages.  Also Luffy is a character who starts out in base form and has superior forms so clashing evenly against base Luffy isn't the same thing as clashing evenly against a fully powered Luffy.  Also it isn't a situation of something that happens consistently.  So it isn't even the same argument.



GilDLax said:


> They all had clashes vs WB who is canonically>his Commanders.



Akainu is the only admiral who has at all had any even clashes against Whitebeard and not only is it a nerfed version of Whitebeard it is only one panel.  And unlike the high ranking yonkou commanders vs. admirals confrontations it isn't something that happens consistently throughout that series.  You suggest that it is a contradicting argument.  Yet it is usually the admiral => yonkou fans who use one panel of Akainu clashing evenly with a nerfed version of Whitebeard and yet disagree with using a lot of clashes of high ranking yonkou commanders vs. admirals.



GilDLax said:


> Marco and Jozu both have bruises. As insignificant as those are, they still have it whereas Admirals don't.



Marco isn't shown being wounded against the admirals outside of when he's handcuffed from behind and can't use his abilities.  Jozu is also frozen from behind.



GilDLax said:


> Marco and Jozu and even WB did blindside Admirals so it's not unfair Admirals did that back to them. But the difference is Marco and Jozu are beaten



Again Sugar's character can one shot a lot of characters who are superior to her if she has that opportunity.  That doesn't somehow make Sugar's character higher ranking than those characters.  Caesar Clown is a character who can one shot Vergo from behind and yet Vergo can't one shot Caesar Clown from behind.  Yet Vergo is > Caesar Clown.  There are a lot of examples.



GilDLax said:


> We didn't. G4's Kong Gun was equal to BM's elbow block.



Linlin's character is easily successfully defending against gear 4th without having to revert to an inferior form whereas Luffy does because even using all that energy he's unable to clash evenly against Linlin's character shows that Linlin's character is superior.



GilDLax said:


> Evidence Ace didn't get stronger?



Even using that argument a significantly nerfed version of Whitebeard easily bests a version of Blackbeard that bests Ace's character.  Also the version of Ace's character that clashes evenly against Aokiji is a battle worn version.


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## Gohara (Oct 3, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> The outnumbering naturally creates a bias in favour of such clashes appearing. There was one Yonkou



Those clashes also are shown in other arcs.



YellowCosmos said:


> which meant either of two things: either the Admirals gang up on him (which would have been stupid for Oda to do for various reasons)



There are a variety of ways that Oda can write it including that and also having a team vs. team clash.



YellowCosmos said:


> Also, it's not that just you can't disprove it is a coincidence, but you can't challenge the claim that it is _likely_ a coincidence or, in other words, argue that it is unlikely to be a coincidence.



There are a lack of examples of two sets of ranks of characters consistently clashing evenly where those characters aren't around the same league.  Also it isn't a simulated series of clashes so how does Oda coincidentally show even clashes between two specific sets of ranks of characters consistently?


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 3, 2018)

Alright I give up, you win.


GilDLax said:


> He can't deal damage to Marco. Not that he can't deal with Marco by tactically choosing who he should focus between the two. Nice being obtuse!


but one last thing, what make you think he can choose who he fight? he can't even pass by an old Rayleigh. and what can he do to a man who can see a future and can react to the likes of Snakeman. You're thinking highly of him.


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## Gohara (Oct 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> Only one comes to my mind and it's intellectual dishonesty to include it as part of that pattern. This was Sabo (assuming Sabo is even as strong as other YCs) vs Fujitora and we know for a fact Fujitora was using Sabo to pretend his hands were tied for political reasons.



Fujitora not going all out isn't a prerequisite for using his clash against Sabo as a reason for not teaming up with the protagonists.  His reason is valid all the same regardless if they are legitimately even thus it can't rightfully be used as a reason to suggest that Fujitora wasn't going all out.  There are also kizaru vs. rayleigh and fujitora vs. a battle worn luffy who technically isn't a yonkou commander however is inferior to most high ranking yonkou commanders heading into that clash.



YellowCosmos said:


> It doesn't mean the implication you're trying to draw isn't a problematic inference



How so?



YellowCosmos said:


> nor does it mean other hypothetical scenarios wouldn't have been vulnerable to the same objection.



How so?  None of your points are really doing anything to explain why these are likely simply coincidences and the variety of reasons that you're arguing is only doing more to make it seem even more coincidental because it's like, "Oda had to make those characters clash otherwise (reason a)", and then in a different scenario "Oda had to make those characters clash otherwise (reason b)".  It's amazing that these scenarios all coincidentally lead to even clashes between those characters.  On top of that I don't see how all of that seems more likely of a coincidence than simply that Oda's intention is to showcase some sort of even play between those characters.



YellowCosmos said:


> How do you know the skirmishes between the Admirals and the Commanders in Marineford weren't examples of this?



I'm excluding those clashes because if we were to use them it would be circular reasoning.  I'm referring to outside examples.



YellowCosmos said:


> Coincidentally.



I figured that you might suggest that.  However it's like "Whoops, I keep accidentally having these rank of characters clash in different scenarios and somehow every time I write them as even clashes".  Is it that likely for a mangaka to be so oblivious to what they are creating?



YellowCosmos said:


> Is someone getting blindsided and getting a split lip an even clash?



What about the chapter or two that they clash off panel with no shown wounds when we next see that clash?



YellowCosmos said:


> Is someone getting attacked by two Yonkou Commanders and taking little or no damage an even clash?



I wouldn't necessarily suggest that's a clash at all.  I don't count that against the admirals.



YellowCosmos said:


> Is someone with a regenerative ability getting punched by an Admiral an even clash?



If that were the case from an admiral and it's fair and square then I would count that as a point for the admirals.



YellowCosmos said:


> The only even clash involving a Commander and an Admiral in Marineford is between Ace and Aokiji.



Kizaru vs. Marco also Aokiji vs. Jozu off panel.


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## Amol (Oct 5, 2018)

Anybody who says Akainu is wanking the extreme here. 
Duo wins Mid(high)  diff here.


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## GilDLax (Oct 5, 2018)

Don King said:


> Alright I give up, you win.
> 
> but one last thing, what make you think he can choose who he fight?


......
Cause I assume Marco is not an idiot (If you think he is then fair enough).
The only way for Kizaru to be unable to engage Katakuri is if Marco keeps standing in between but that's counter-productive because:
-Katakuri can't attack Kizaru directly either, except for Awakening or Grilled mochi...but Kizaru has way longer range than that. You have to admit Katakuri's Awakening is not as well-utilized as DD's.

*-*Marco is not as big as Katakuri anw so it's not like he can block all laser unless he spreads his wings and cover Katakuri fully. And here's the problem: I have discussed this in the thread ''Katakuri's Future Sight's limits'' in Library (go find it, I detailed my reasoning there), Katakuri's Future Sight so far does not work on things he can't see. So if Marco blocks his vision then Marco literally cripples the best fighting tool his partner has...

-Kizaru's laser can penetrate Marco if Marco slips up and explode behind, which is where Katakuri stands and that's not pretty when Katakuri cannot see and dodge.

-Finally, that means Marco is reduced to a shield and cannot attack Kizaru, too. 
So pretty much they tie themselves.

So if Marco is not an idiot, the duo either:
-run away which I think is not what the thread allows LOL
Or
-of course engage Kizaru and vice versa. All Kizaru has to do next is keep an eye on Marco and focus on Katakuri. I mean Akainu didn't find it too hard to ignore Marco and step on Curiel like a bug...




Don King said:


> he can't even pass by an old Rayleigh.


I have explained above why Marco should not be an idiot so Kizaru doesn't need to pass him. And your sentence makes 2 mistakes:
-You assume Old Rayleigh is equal or weaker than Marco (which is why being unable to pass him means unable to pass Marco to fight Katakuri) which is not proven. 
-You forget it's swordsman-mode Kizaru who was unable to pass Old Rayleigh. Not a Kizaru who is not hindered by plot (which I think this thread is about) and can just jump high in the air and shoot laser everywhere.




Don King said:


> and what can he do to a man who can see a future and can react to the likes of Snakeman. You're thinking highly of him.


Let see, seeing the future doesn't mean you're fast enough to escape. So maybe spam wide-range laser attack (which is one of 3 signature techniques)? Katakuri never shows the ability to travel such a long distance.
And this has to do with Katakuri's future sight's limit but Katakuri wouldn't see the future all the times and Kizaru isn't so slow to not capitalize that.

And what does being able to react to Snakeman means anything to Kizaru? The likes of Snakeman? Your wording sounds like Snakeman is amazing. It is to Katakuri, yeah, but for Kizaru who reacted to WB and dodged his attack even when blindsided as well as actually have super-fast moving mode (light speed or not), I would trust the latter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Oct 7, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> First, it can be explained as a coincidence. The explanation is satisfactory by standards of explanation.



There is basically no such thing as an impossible coincidence using technicality.  The idea that it is technically a possible coincidence isn't enough to satisfy as an explanation more than the easily more likely explanation that when a mangaka consistently has characters of specific ranks clash evenly it's because those characters are around the same league.  



YellowCosmos said:


> There is no reason to think the contents of the pattern support the first interpretation - this is what the cheetah/tortoise analogy was about.



I respectfully disagree that the analogy adequately explains the flaws of that reasoning because of reasons I used in a reply to that argument.  



YellowCosmos said:


> I'm not sure how to explain this, but you've given yourself free reign here to interpret whatever you want however you please.



A mangaka showing characters of specific ranks clash evenly a lot and interpreting from that those characters can reasonably be argued as being around same league hardly qualifies as interpreting whatever I want.  Especially when a lot of the opposing arguments use one panel of Akainu clashing with a significantly nerfed version of a yonkou as evidence for the admirals being > high ranking yonkou commanders which attempts to use the same reasoning that you're disagreeing with except it only has one example and includes a significantly nerfed version of a character.



YellowCosmos said:


> If, for example, I said that Jesus Burgess being the 1st Fleet Captain in Blackbeard's armada implies he's the strongest, even if wrong, it's obvious for everyone why I am able to make that argument, because we have similar patterns elsewhere that allow me to interpret what that hint, if it is a hint, might mean.



We know of only 2 fleets that have 1st divisions outside of the Blackbeard Pirates and while the 1st division commander is a first mate in one of them the 1st division commander in the other isn't a first mate.  High ranking yonkou commanders and characters around that league clashing evenly with admirals 17/17 is significantly more of an arguable pattern than 1 out of 2 1st division commanders being first mates.  There are also other arguments that can be used to argue that high ranking yonkou commanders are around the same league as the admirals.



YellowCosmos said:


> It's not all obvious how you are getting from the observation to its meaning and there seem to be no connections between what you observe and what you are saying, so I am assuming these just exist in your head.



You suggest that like I'm the only fan who has argued that when there are a lot of fans throughout the One Piece fan base who have also noticed high ranking yonkou commanders and characters around that league consistently clashing evenly with admirals.



YellowCosmos said:


> Vista and Marco vs Akainu doesn't imply the Admiral had a decisive edge against the two of them then this clash certainly doesn't



Except Linlin's character shows no annoyance of the gear 4th technique whereas Akainu arguably doesn't defend against Marco's and Vista's slashes and not without being annoyed.


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 8, 2018)

Anything you said is great and about the observation haki I really don't put much thought into that waiting for Oda to clarify what's Observation is about.


GilDLax said:


> You forget it's swordsman-mode Kizaru who was unable to pass Old Rayleigh. Not a Kizaru who is not hindered by plot (which I think this thread is about) and can just jump high in the air and shoot laser everywhere.


but swordsman-mode Kizaru is he's go to combat style when fighting a top tier opponents like Z and Rayleigh and the laser spam is for fodder.


GilDLax said:


> And what does being able to react to Snakeman means anything to Kizaru? The likes of Snakeman? Your wording sounds like Snakeman is amazing. It is to Katakuri, yeah, but for Kizaru who reacted to WB and dodged his attack even when blindsided as well as actually have super-fast moving mode (light speed or not), I would trust the latter.


the thing is I know Kizaru might be the fastest man but as of right now his laser can be easily dodge like Luffy call it slow when he one shot the Px back in SA while the snakeman even with Katakuri being able to see the future and can deal with fast opponents having a hard time to snakeman.

even Rayliegh can stop Kizaru from moving back in SA and force to stay I guess because of Coo haki.


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## GilDLax (Oct 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> but swordsman-mode Kizaru is he's go to combat style when fighting a top tier opponents like Z and Rayleigh and the laser spam is for fodder.


Movie is not canon.

And he used laser spam vs WB...O__o



Don King said:


> his laser can be easily dodge like Luffy call it slow when he one shot the Px back in SA


Where is it said the Pacifista is as good as the original? ThrillerBarkZolo dodged it, too. Is that Zolo super fast or is Kizaru's DF suddenly super useless or copy being copy? Marco is so slow he could not dodge what ThrillerBarkZolo dodged...




Don King said:


> even Rayliegh can stop Kizaru from moving back in SA and force to stay I guess because of Coo haki.


Again, what does ''even Rayleigh'' means?


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## Vivo Diez (Oct 8, 2018)

Surely Pacifista's laser attack is a much weaker version of Kizaru's. Even then, Kizaru seems to be able to spam them much more casually than the pacifista.


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 8, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Movie is not canon.
> 
> And he used laser spam vs WB...O__o


Still Oda is clear about Kizaru's fighting style, he chose the swords when fighting a strong opponents and when he fight WB just like Akainu did I'm sure he will use swords too his spam on WB is the right move since WB is slow anyway during the war and no Coo Haki.



GilDLax said:


> Where is it said the Pacifista is as good as the original? ThrillerBarkZolo dodged it, too. Is that Zolo super fast or is Kizaru's DF suddenly super useless or copy being copy? Marco is so slow he could not dodge what ThrillerBarkZolo dodged...


 and @Vivo Diez 
It means Zoro is fast in reacting, he can react to Kuma who can teleport instantly. and Marco didn't dodge the laser because he can tank it. 

*but I'm not saying the laser is as strong it's only as fast.*



GilDLax said:


> Again, what does ''even Rayleigh'' means?


He stop Kizaru from going to SH and for the first time we saw someone stopping Kizaru moves before he makes it. just what Rayleigh did.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> he can't even pass by an old Rayleigh.



Rayleigh was a top tier. Even now he is possibly above all current YFM. 

What did you want? Kizaru to steamroll the FM of PK?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 8, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> Rayleigh was a top tier. Even now he is possibly above all current YFM.
> 
> What did you want? Kizaru to steamroll the FM of PK?


I'm not really talking about that. I mean is Kizaru light speed can be stop by Rayleigh so it also means Katakuri can pretty do the same.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> I mean is Kizaru light speed can be stop by Rayleigh so it also means Katakuri can pretty do the same.



So you are comparing Katakuri with Rayleigh. Makes sense.


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 8, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> So you are comparing Katakuri with Rayleigh. Makes sense.


Yes, in terms of Coo. actually no Kata is much better.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> Yes, in terms of Coo. actually no Kata is much better.



The person who in his brief showcase of COO showed that he can sense every animal in a big ass island & their power level.

And also we haven't seen his full power vs who Luffy just beat & still isn't top tier.


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## GilDLax (Oct 9, 2018)

Don King said:


> Still Oda is clear about Kizaru's fighting style, he chose the swords when fighting a strong opponents


And he uses laser spam vs WB who I didn't know is clearly not a strong opponent...did you read what I said or are you still stubbornly clinging to Z fight's being canon? 

Also you're ignoring context. Rayleigh already was in arm range and he used a sword first. How do you know Kizaru wasn't forced to employ sword instead of actively choosing his combat option?




Don King said:


> and when he fight WB just like Akainu did I'm sure he will use swords too


Okay, manga > your ''I'm sure''

And let say that's the case, then it's not a matter of whether it's his main style or not. It's dependent on distance and he chooses his style accordingly, which as I have said, in vs Marco and Katakuri he doesn't have to get close...at best only Marco can close the gap cause he has the feat for it and actually only because Kizaru was mid-air without mobility.




Don King said:


> but I'm not saying the laser is as strong it's only as fast.


Exactly what I meant by ''as good''. The context of what we're talking is speed anw...
Evidence it's as fast? No, ''it's laser'' isn't evidence. This is fantasy manga, there's no guarantee the fantasy version is exactly like the real-life version besides what it actually shows it can do and hell real-life laser is a bit more complicated than that.




Don King said:


> It means Zoro is fast in reacting, he can react to Kuma who can teleport instantly. and Marco didn't dodge the laser because he can tank it.


That's why Zolo didn't blitz Ryuma who is only powered by Brook's soul...

I'm talking when Marco was shot after he was handcuffed.




Don King said:


> He stop Kizaru from going to SH and for the first time we saw someone stopping Kizaru moves before he makes it. just what Rayleigh did.


I didn't ask what Rayleigh did. I asked what ''even Rayleigh'' means...


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 9, 2018)

Not sure how these two chumps are meant to take him out given their lack of serious top tier quality firepower and Akainu's already well publicised & highlighted extreme durability. 

Akainu takes this handily, probably on the lower side of high difficulty.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 9, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> And he uses laser spam vs WB who I didn't know is clearly not a strong opponent...did you read what I said or are you still stubbornly clinging to Z fight's being canon?
> 
> Also you're ignoring context. Rayleigh already was in arm range and he used a sword first. How do you know Kizaru wasn't forced to employ sword instead of actively choosing his combat option?


HE fighting the SN in SA he didn't even bother to use the swords. 


GilDLax said:


> Okay, manga > your ''I'm sure''
> 
> And let say that's the case, then it's not a matter of whether it's his main style or not. It's dependent on distance and he chooses his style accordingly, which as I have said, in vs Marco and Katakuri he doesn't have to get close...at best only Marco can close the gap cause he has the feat for it and actually only because Kizaru was mid-air without mobility.


Again when he fight SN in SA he didn't use a swords they're very close at each other. Katakuri have awakening his pearless doughnuts can appear everywhere he wants.


GilDLax said:


> Exactly what I meant by ''as good''. The context of what we're talking is speed anw...
> Evidence it's as fast? No, ''it's laser'' isn't evidence. This is fantasy manga, there's no guarantee the fantasy version is exactly like the real-life version besides what it actually shows it can do and hell real-life laser is a bit more complicated than that.


Evidence that those two laser is not the same in terms of speed?


GilDLax said:


> That's why Zolo didn't blitz Ryuma who is only powered by Brook's soul...
> 
> *I'm talking when Marco was shot after he was handcuffed*.


That's the context of that scene, They're supposed to get hit because of distraction.


GilDLax said:


> I didn't ask what Rayleigh did. I asked what ''even Rayleigh'' means...


This is my bad forgot I even said "even"


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## trance (Oct 9, 2018)

akainu is stronger than any first mate but i'm not so sure akainu can beat someone with the most impressive defensive feats in the manga and someone else who can see the future with seemingly pinpoint accuracy a_t the same time_

now, things will almost certainly change when akainu enters the fray once again (dat power creep) but as of now? i can't see it

duo high diff


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## GilDLax (Oct 10, 2018)

Don King said:


> HE fighting the SN in SA he didn't even bother to use the swords.
> 
> Again when he fight SN in SA he didn't use a swords they're very close at each other.


...
Sure, because they are too damn weak...we're talking about fighting strong opponents...don't ignore context and just bring up random fights that are irrelevant. Grasping at whatever straw you can find, eh?

I never said Kizaru had an absolute and rigid action code that dictates he must use sword only in close combat and laser only in ranged-combat (in which case mentioning the SN fights would have refuted my point). 
I'm saying *against strong opponents (Rayleigh and WB)* Kizaru, so far, has been shown to use different combat styles (and possibly depends on distance) so your point that Kizaru's fighting style is to use sword vs strong opponents is wrong canonically (and that's not even mentioning Marco and Katakuri are not confirmed as strong as Rayleigh individually). 
In fact once when WB blindisided him, he still reacted fast enough to use his foot to stamp down WB's bisento and laser him in the chest. Not exactly sure how you can conclude the guy uses sword vs strong opponent just from one single skirmish. That's not even close to enough samples for inductive reasoning...

You still haven't explained why Kizaru used laser spam vs WB. Tell me how that should be ignored and the Rayleigh fight is suddenly the only factor for you...

You're the one claiming Kizaru has a certain fighting pattern, not me. Burden of proof is on you and reality is it's wrong already.




Don King said:


> Katakuri have awakening his pearless doughnuts can appear everywhere he wants.


Feat or it didn't happen. 

What the devil fruit can potentially do is not necessarily what the user would do. It depends on fighting style, creativeness, mastery, strengths and weaknesses. Different characters would pick different direction to develop their skill set.

All Logia and ''Logia-ish'' Paramecia (poison, wax, mucus etc.) can create elements and manipulate them however they want. That's the theory. But reality is they don't have same techniques.

Why Katakuri chooses to fight close combat a lot with his spear instead of making HardeningCoA Block mochi clones like Cracker makes biscuit clones? 
Why didn't Perosperos make a giant Candy Service Set like the one Mr.3 used to trap Zolo, Nami and Vivi?
Why Magellan didn't manipulate his poison and make a poison dome that covers Impel Down like DD made Bird Cage with his threads?
Why Trebol didn't drown Luffy in mucus like Katakuri and Peros did with mochi and candy respectively?
Why Kalifa didn't manipulate her soap bubbles to cover the whole room so Nami couldn't escape regardless of where she was in the room?
Why Akainu made a magma dog and not magma monkey?
Why Aokiji makes ice pheasant and not ice dog?
Why Smoker only utilizes the mobility his DF gives him and never turns into a giant smokeman (like Caesar turns giant gasman) or create a giant smokeman (like Magellan created that Hell Judgement), coat them in Hardening CoA and starts wrecking Vergo? We know his smoke can be solidified. 
List goes on...

So don't give Katakuri technique he doesn't show he has LOL





Don King said:


> Evidence that those two laser is not the same in terms of speed?


...
You sure you know how to debate? Or logical fallacies are your means?

Don't shift burden of proof! You give your evidence why they should be the same speed cause *you* claimed that. Don't ask me to do that for you!

Using your tactic I can just say ''people from country X are less intelligent than people from country Y'' without any proof whatsoever then when people ask me for evidence I can just tell them ''evidence what I say is not true?'' and they have to do research for me when the burden of proof is not on them?

As for why I think Kizaru should not be scaled after Pacifista or vice versa, well, 3 reasons:
-He's the original. Pacifista is just replication. Not that replication cannot equal or surpass the original but why should I suddenly give benefit of the doubt for fodders? 
Hell, only recently did Vegapunk manage to make something amazing that Fuji said Marines would not need Shichibukai anymore because of it. If he can replicate and mass produce Admirals level of fighting then they would foddderize WB crew in 2 minutes in Marine Ford War...

-Kizaru did fight Marco and WB without being blitzed and his laser were effective. Two high-top-tier fighters wayyyyy stronger than ThrillerBarkZolo and pre-TSLuffy could ever hope to match at the time. And those two dodged Pacifista's laser mid-fire.

-same reason we don't think Akainu would be blitzed by Gear2Luffy just because Akainu never demonstrated any speedy technique. Kizaru is an Admiral. So you think his DF suddenly has a technique that is useless to fodders cause they can just dodge it and he never trained that technique to befit his level?

None of those is a hard-proof but it's clear who I should give benefit of the doubt.





Don King said:


> That's the context of that scene, They're supposed to get hit because of distraction.


The guy was just shot before. He should know what is behind him already. Being handcuffed is hardly a reason to not dodge it.

Sanji literally dodged Katakuri's blindsiding jelly bean shot without seeing casually and Katakuri could see the future plus Sanji is much weaker than Katakuri. 

Here you're saying Kizaru's laser is slow enough pre-TSZolo and pre-TSLuffy could dodge it mid-fire and you also think Marco is close in strength to Kizaru and Kizaru has no CoO feat yet you think Marco couldn't do what Sanji did? 

It's like your argument changes on the fly and you just say whatever you feel can be a retort to me. And you end up contradicting yourself LOL


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## Gohara (Oct 10, 2018)

The pxs lasers are suggested as being Kizaru's lasers aren't they?  If so then it would make sense to have to prove the contrary rather than proving that they are the same as Kizaru's lasers.  That doesn't necessarily suggest that characters have to dodge Kizaru's lasers if they have ways to counter it such as phoenix's abilities.  Kizaru can also use laser spam so without ways to counter laser spam and/or having a lot of speed and/or having awesome observation haki it is still an awesome technique to use however to be fair Lord Katakuri and Marco do have those things.


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## trance (Oct 10, 2018)

itt fodder pacifista lasers are the exact same as the real deal

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 10, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> ...
> Sure, because they are too damn weak...we're talking about fighting strong opponents...don't ignore context and just bring up random fights that are irrelevant. Grasping at whatever straw you can find, eh?
> 
> I never said Kizaru had an absolute and rigid action code that dictates he must use sword only in close combat and laser only in ranged-combat (in which case mentioning the SN fights would have refuted my point).
> ...


Kizaru and Rayleigh fought for at least 30 min or maybe hour and it's really 1v1 while WB Vs Kizaru is very brief. It's not really the same that's why I said if they really fought just like Akainu Vs WB fought then maybe he pull out the Swords.


GilDLax said:


> Feat or it didn't happen.
> 
> What the devil fruit can potentially do is not necessarily what the user would do. It depends on fighting style, creativeness, mastery, strengths and weaknesses. Different characters would pick different direction to develop their skill set.
> 
> ...


by enough preparations with Awakening, he can do this. 

So, I don't know what your talking about that he didn't did.


GilDLax said:


> ...
> You sure you know how to debate? Or logical fallacies are your means?
> 
> Don't shift burden of proof! You give your evidence why they should be the same speed cause *you* claimed that. Don't ask me to do that for you!
> ...


sure, I don't have a really solid proof about this claim of mine but look so do you.

Kizaru's fire power is stronger than the PX but nothing suggest that it's much more faster. being him the original only suggest he's laser is infinite and much more effective because of the variety he can do to it.

and that Vegapunk we don't really know what he created so, for now that is irrelevant.

Marco and especially WB during MF are not the same Coo user like Katakuri. Maybe WB was before, back when he is sleeping he can react to Ace kill intent but MF WB? there is no special about him in Coo Squardo manage to stab him that Marco state that before even if it comes to allies he can react to it.


GilDLax said:


> The guy was just shot before. He should know what is behind him already. Being handcuffed is hardly a reason to not dodge it.
> 
> Sanji literally dodged Katakuri's blindsiding jelly bean shot without seeing casually and Katakuri could see the future plus Sanji is much weaker than Katakuri.
> 
> ...


I know Marco is stronger than Sanji but if we talking about Coo, I will give to Sanji 24/7 the guy has really feat on that category while Marco being able to tank shit probably didn't train his Coo.

I sure did said that about Zoro but maybe you're misinterpret what I said to Luffy I'm talking to Luffy after 2years of training.

Actually yes, I want you to change my view on this but I got to respectfully disagree really but not because you're wrong but I don't think your opinion of this > is that of mine.


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 11, 2018)

Akainu will be taking hits from Luffy that would have put Katakuri on his knees


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## Gohara (Oct 11, 2018)

Why would characters call it Kizaru's lasers if it doesn't resemble Kizaru's lasers in offense and/or speed?  Wouldn't that basically make them normal lasers?  It isn't that Kizaru's lasers are slow.  It's that characters like Luffy can use observation haki and/or a lot of speed to dodge them without a problem if it isn't laser spam.


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## Gohara (Oct 12, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> Arguing with you is rather difficult because of your tendency not to question your own assumptions.



Assumptions like?  The one that high ranking yonkou commanders wouldn't consistently be even with yonkou in chapter+ clashes?

Characters who have clashed with both admirals and yonkou:

Ace- Against an admiral while battle worn, an even clash.  Against a version of a sleeping yonkou, bested easily.

Jinbe- Successfully defends against if not at least fends off Akainu without using techniques.  Against a nerfed version of a yonkou while using techniques, is slashed and sent flying.  

Luffy- Clashes with an admiral evenly while not using gear 4th, while using gear 4th has a technique defended against easily from a yonkou.

I doubt that we agree on what those assumptions are, and the assumptions that my arguments are making are things that I have questioned.  However, if looking at an argument of "well it is technically possible that it is coincidental that Oda accidentally matched up characters around the same rank a lot" and "coincidences like that in manga/anime are rare if at all existent", it's easy to find the second argument more logical even without including other evidence of those characters being around the same rank.  The evidence of the first argument has to be awesome to make the coincidence likely and at most your argument has only said that it's technically possible.  Oda has other ways of writing the admirals in those situations and that he consistently chooses to write those clashes that way is what makes it likely that it is intentional.  Oda doesn't have to have high ranking yonkou commanders clash with admirals at all nor does he have to make the clashes even and yet he consistently does both.  Characters clashing in manga/anime evenly consistently is usually a suggestion that those characters are around the same rank.

You haven't done anything in this thread to show that your explanation is more likely expect point out that there is a special feature which begs for a special explanation, a feature which I've argued is likely a coincidence.



YellowCosmos said:


> I get that you disagree, but you're not pointing out problems here with my points



Your points are:

-The arguments that I'm making are like only including the beginning of a contest and making inferences based on that.  That argument is not true even looking at the base of it because some of the clashes between admirals and high ranking yonkou commanders are chapter+ clashes.  It doesn't also change that there is some pattern there

-That I don't have proof of clashes between high ranking yonkou commanders and admirals being more than a coincidence.  Only technically is that argument true however doesn't change that the likelihood that is created from that pattern as being more likely than the contrary because of the pattern itself and if my argument for it had more evidence it would basically be a fact that characters of those ranks are even and I'm not arguing that it's a fact.

-That we don't know that yonkou would best high ranking yonkou commanders in those same clashes.  There are however clashes where yonkou have bested high ranking yonkou commanders at the beginning of clashes and clashes where the yonkou have more easily bested characters than admirals have bested those same characters.

-That isn't a straw hat because I'm not referring specifically to your arguments.



YellowCosmos said:


> If I argued that Burgess was the 4th strongest on that basis, you'd rightly ask me, why on earth do I think that?



Which is basically nothing like the argument that I'm making.  If you argued that Burgess was the 4th highest ranking character in that crew because he's the 1st division commander, there would be no established pattern behind that idea at all.  No inductive generalizations and no evidence.  Recognizing patterns is something that we do a lot to come to conclusions which itself is already significantly more favorable than the idea that it is technically a coincidence, and yet I obviously use other patterns like that to inform the arguments that I'm making.  I use the way that high ranking yonkou commanders are portrayed against the yonkou to inform the argument that high ranking yonkou commanders wouldn't clash evenly with the yonkou in the same manner that they have the admirals.  I use the fact that Oda could write the admirals other ways than clashing evenly with high ranking yonkou commanders and yet has consistently chosen to write them clashing evenly with high ranking yonkou commanders to inform the argument that Oda is doing it intentionally.



YellowCosmos said:


> But it is _you _who is arguing here with me



I know however you said:



YellowCosmos said:


> It's not all obvious how you are getting from the observation to its meaning and there seem to be no connections between what you observe and what you are saying, so I am assuming these just exist in your head.



I'm not a fan of using argumentum ad populum and that's not what that is, however it's obviously obvious to some fans and obviously those arguments don't just exist in my head if there are some fans who have used the same evidence to create the same arguments.

and it is _you_ who is failing to give any reasons why anyone should think a meaningful pattern has been noticed and why your interpretation of it is actually a good one.



YellowCosmos said:


> nonplussed.



Akainu is at minimum annoyed if not somewhat injured from Marco's and Vista's techniques whereas Linlin's character isn't at all annoyed at gear 4th's techniques.


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## trance (Oct 13, 2018)

>almost 2019
>wasting a tl;dr on gohara



@YellowCosmos best to save ur words 

gohara is fully stuck in his own beliefs


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## trance (Oct 13, 2018)

i mean, i don't hate or even dislike him

just can't debate with him anymore cuz there's just no point


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## Gohara (Oct 13, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> No, I haven't really said anything about it's likelihood.



Right and that is what I'm asking.  You're asking for evidence of the likelihood that Oda writes those clashes intentionally and yet not providing any evidence for the likelihood that Oda writes those clashes coincidentally.



YellowCosmos said:


> that Akainu decisively beat Ace in a clash



Ace's character is battle worn going into that arc because of being seastone handcuffed.  One example of a clash between an admiral and a battle worn yonkou commander doesn't really disagree with the argument based on patterns where characters of that rank have consistently clashed evenly especially while fully healed.



YellowCosmos said:


> What on earth is making you think Akainu - the man who was clashing fist to fist with Whitebeard - couldn't have done something similar?



I'm using that example of a nerfed version of a yonkou besting Jinbe at the beginning of a clash vs. Akainu not doing the same thing to Jinbe at the beginning of a clash.  That argument isn't required to suggest if Akainu can best Jinbe at the beginning of a clash in other clashes and Akainu has only clashed against a nerfed version of a yonkou in one panel.



YellowCosmos said:


> Luffy clashing evenly with Fujitora, you're being silly.



Fujitora vs. Luffy is a clash in which neither of those characters best each other.



YellowCosmos said:


> The point isn't how long they are in terms of chapters (which are longer than a chapter?)



kizaru vs. old rayleigh, aokiji vs. jozu, fujitora vs. sabo, etc..

Those clashes also have various acts happening between the beginning of their clashes and when their clashes take a mutually break.



YellowCosmos said:


> You're still assuming the pattern is likely just because of the fact that it (according to you) exists.



I assume that you mean that I'm assuming that those characters are around the same rank because that pattern exists and not because of other evidence?



YellowCosmos said:


> but you haven't _actually shown the likelihood is higher than the coincidence explanation_. Remember, the coincidence explanation can account for the majority of your examples.





YellowCosmos said:


> It doesn't matter that Oda could have written things differently or whatever.



You argue that however haven't really shown how the evidence that I have posted isn't evidence.  There are a lot of ways that those clashes could be written and Oda has consistently specifically chosen to write those characters clash evenly.



YellowCosmos said:


> I'm just saying you're seeing something that's not there. The fact that other people see it doesn't mean much because there are plenty of people who don't see it



I'm not disagreeing that there are others who also disagree with high ranking yonkou commanders consistently clashing evenly with admirals suggesting that those characters are around the same rank.  Usually however it isn't that they don't see it, it's that they don't think that the pattern is enough evidence and yet then cite a one panel clash of a nerfed version of a yonkou vs. Akainu clashing evenly for one panel and using that as evidence for the admirals being around the same rank as the yonkou.  Your argument is different in that you're arguing that the coincidence of the pattern is as likely as Oda intentionally creating a pattern.  However there isn't a lot of variations of arguing how drawing the same paper in a hat of thousands of papers is likelier to be because those papers are all the same than that the unique paper is consistently drawn in a hat with thousands of variations of papers.



YellowCosmos said:


> Akainu still is a problem for your pattern because he shows a decisive edge against, not one, but _two_, YCs



Ace's character and who else?  Also Akainu is the admiral that stands out the most and I agree is superior to almost any yonkou commander even if only somewhat.


----------



## GilDLax (Oct 16, 2018)

Don King said:


> Kizaru and Rayleigh fought for at least 30 min or maybe hour


LOLWUT?
There's no time frame in the manga and judging by the length of events and distance that wasn't even 10 minutes. You think Kuma zipzaping around the field in 30 minutes to teleport the Strawhats? Sanji would cover that field in seconds...




Don King said:


> and it's really 1v1 while WB Vs Kizaru is very brief. It's not really the same that's why I said if they really fought just like Akainu Vs WB fought then *maybe* he pull out the Swords.


Brief or not does not matter; WB is a top-tier and Kizaru was fighting in dangerous blindsided circumstance. Plus if you wanna pull the ''it's not really the same'' card then 1vs2 YCs is not really the same situation either...

And wait, bold: maybe? MAYBE?
I remembered you said


Don King said:


> but swordsman-mode Kizaru *is* he's go to combat style when *fighting a top tier opponents* like Z and Rayleigh and the laser spam *is* for fodder.


what a change in degree of certainty...

And again, neither Katakuri or Marco is shown to be as strong as Rayleigh individually and Kizaru was not shown to pull out sword anywhere in the War fighting Marco or WB. Not a single time. You can put your hope on off-screened but feats> speculation and why did Kizaru put his sword on and off if he had to fight strong opponents in the War?




Don King said:


> So, I don't know what your talking about that he didn't did.


Don't be obtuse! My post is already very clear. That picture only shows Katakuri could  use Awakening and grow hands from the ground. Never said otherwise. The point is he never used it like DD to fight long-ranged and such nor did he even ever show he produced more than 2 arms.




Don King said:


> but look so do you.


Again, pretending to not understand what shifting burden of proof is does not help. Only makes you worse with this distracting attempt.

You claimed it then you gave evidence. If you didn't have one, as you just admitted, then your whole argument from start to finish is just mendacity backed by intellectually dishonest debate tactic. Nothing more!




Don King said:


> Kizaru's fire power is stronger than the PX but nothing suggest that it's much more faster. being him the original only suggest he's laser is infinite and much more effective because of the variety he can do to it.
> 
> and that Vegapunk we don't really know what he created so, for now that is irrelevant.
> 
> Marco and especially WB during MF are not the same Coo user like Katakuri. Maybe WB was before, back when he is sleeping he can react to Ace kill intent but MF WB? there is no special about him in Coo Squardo manage to stab him that Marco state that before even if it comes to allies he can react to it.


Those are useless points. Unlike you I never lie and pretend I have hard proof to make definitive statement like Kizaru's go-to combat mean is this or that.

I already explained who I should give benefit of the doubt and what's more likely.

Now do your part and give the fucking evidence for your stance already. Oh wait, you just said you had none. So there's no point continuing this just so I can see your effort to save your face.





Don King said:


> I know Marco is stronger than Sanji but if we talking about Coo, I will give to Sanji 24/7 the guy has really feat on that category while Marco being able to tank shit probably didn't train his Coo.


It's never about CoO. Sanji didn't even dodge DD's 5-color string...either he didn't have CoO active 24/7 (even less reason to when he was putting his attention on Pudding crying) or his CoO is never enough in the first place and he was not even looking at Katakuri.

Also you still have pre-TSZolo and Luffy to explain, don't ignore that!




Don King said:


> but maybe you're misinterpret what I said to Luffy I'm talking to Luffy after 2years of training.


Luffy already reacted to Kizaru's laser mid-fire pre-TS...




Don King said:


> Actually yes, I want you to change my view on this but I got to respectfully disagree really but not because you're wrong but I don't think your opinion of this > is that of mine.


> admit changed argument on the fly, ended up making clashing points
> yet still thinks ''my stance stands because...whatever''...

Pick one!


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 16, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Don't be obtuse! My post is already very clear. That picture only shows Katakuri could use Awakening and grow hands from the ground. Never said otherwise. The point is he never used it like DD to fight long-ranged and such nor did he even ever show he produced more than 2 arms.


As I said with enough preparation with awakening he can produce it anywhere he want with the help of his Coo and what Kizaru can do in long range if Kata can make his body logia. Katakuri can produce more than 2 arms.


GilDLax said:


> Those are useless points. Unlike you I never lie and pretend I have hard proof to make definitive statement like Kizaru's go-to combat mean is this or that.
> 
> I already explained who I should give benefit of the doubt and what's more likely.
> 
> Now do your part and give the fucking evidence for your stance already. Oh wait, you just said you had none. So there's no point continuing this just so I can see your effort to save your face.


it's not useless I just refute what you just said. I think that's just me giving my opinion I never said that as a fact or I have a hard proof and so did your argument about Kizaru's laser is much more faster than the PX one. It's not fact or else where not discussing it you're just assuming and so did I that's why we're having this conversation.

and I already explain mine. but if u can't accept that then let's move on. your evidence is only because Kizaru is the original and I answered that with being him the original only suggest he's laser is infinite and much more effective because of the variety he can do to it.


GilDLax said:


> > admit changed argument on the fly, ended up making clashing points


NO but I'm willing to change my opinion if only you have a solid argument.


GilDLax said:


> > yet still thinks ''my stance stands because...whatever''...


because your stand is not solid as you think it is. "the Original is better so it's automatically faster".


GilDLax said:


> Also you still have pre-TSZolo and Luffy to explain, don't ignore that!


what do I need to explain about Zoro and Luffy?


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## Fel1x (Oct 17, 2018)

Akainu extreme diff

and Marco can damage him. especially post-war against BB Marco.
Katakuri absolutely can

but their duo won't be enough


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## Dunno (Oct 18, 2018)

Akainu mid diffs them individually, and high diffs the duo.


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## Gohara (Oct 20, 2018)

We agree that there is a pattern, I think that you mean that you want evidence of that pattern being intentional or it being a coincidence, and of course the idea that it is intentional starts out more likely if there are a variety of other scenarios that could be drawn from the bowl in each scenario and yet they are all the same in every scenario.  There are around a handful of different things that Oda could have written in each clash to differentiate from each other, which translates to there being hundreds of different combinations combined.  Of those hundreds of different combinations it was that same scenario each time.  There isn't a lot of evidence needed and yet there are patterns from manga/anime in general that do inform how things like that usually work in manga/anime.

It's not putting a spoke in front of the wheels, it's putting a tiny rock in front of monster truck wheels.  I've explained how those examples aren't suspicious, I'm not sure what you mean about it only being indirect, and the only example that I've seen on the contrary isn't contrary to the logic of the argument that I'm making- it's still possible for there to be an admiral that is superior to a high ranking yonkou commander and Akainu being > almost any yonkou commander is something that I've always agreed with.


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## Lord Melkor (Oct 20, 2018)

Hm, interesting question, there are arguments both way. I would say that each of them can give Akainu at least medium difficulty fight individually and in this match it could go either way, though I would give the duo advantage over Fujitora or Kizaru. I see Akainu having the greatest resolve and willpower among the admirals.

Please note that Katakuri was Luffy's main fight in WCI arc and now it will be Kaidou (given Oda's track record, I doubt Luffy will not be main person responsible for taking down Kaidou). And Blackbeard cemented his Yonkou status by defeating Marco. So Yonkou FM are level below Admirals/Yonkou, but are by portrayal best next thing to them.


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## Gohara (Oct 26, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> There are examples which we have no reason to believe are even if they have the appearance of being even (this was explained before in the thread), but you're still including them as part of the pattern.



I replied to that Fujitora vs. Sabo example and that's the only example that I remember being brought up out of more than several examples.


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## Dark (Oct 27, 2018)

Akainu beats them lower end of high difficulty individually so in a two on one, Akainu wins extreme difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Nov 2, 2018)

if he is even close in power to kaido he wins in 2 hits. 
marco and katakuri are at best equal to G4. they are not stronger than current luffy


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## Extravlad (Nov 2, 2018)

Akainu oneshots Katakuri and mid-low diffs Marco.


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## Icegaze (Nov 2, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Akainu oneshots Katakuri and mid-low diffs Marco.



based on what is marco stronger than katakuri?


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## MO (Nov 2, 2018)

Akainu still isn't winning this. Katakuri and Marco are both much harder to actually land a hit on due to their abilities plus Akainu isn't like kaido who can just take a barrage of attack while sleeping.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 2, 2018)

Akainu stomps now

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Nov 3, 2018)

MO said:


> Akainu still isn't winning this. Katakuri and Marco are both much harder to actually land a hit on due to their abilities plus Akainu isn't like kaido who can just take a barrage of attack while sleeping.



Says who ?
If akainu wasn’t slightly on kaido level there won’t be marines the Yonko will rule uncontested 
That currently isn’t the case 

Thus an argument can be made that the strongest Yonko is around the same level as the strongest marine 

Hence akainu kills them in 2 hits

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Nov 3, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Says who ?
> If akainu wasn’t slightly on kaido level there won’t be marines the Yonko will rule uncontested
> That currently isn’t the case
> 
> ...


Akainu and kaido are different. Akainu is easier to take down. And Marco and katakuri aren't getting one shotted of the bat.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 3, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Says who ?
> If akainu wasn’t slightly on kaido level there won’t be marines the Yonko will rule uncontested
> That currently isn’t the case
> 
> ...



Are we reading the same manga?
He couldn't one-shot Marco when he flew straight into his fist, and his peer in Kizaru couldn't kill Marco after presumably thousands of hits with Yasaka no Magatama. Akainu couldn't one-shot Jinbei, either.

The only one-shots that we see are Curiel and Ace jumping in front of Luffy. Still don't know how it happened with Curiel when it was an off-panel fight... So he literally one-shotted no one in proper context


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## Gohara (Nov 3, 2018)

"If akainu wasn’t slightly on kaido level there won’t be marines the Yonko will rule uncontested"

Not necessarily, there are a lot more characters in the world government than the marines and the Shichibukai and the yonkou also match up against each other.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 3, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "If akainu wasn’t slightly on kaido level there won’t be marines the Yonko will rule uncontested"
> 
> Not necessarily, there are a lot more characters in the world government than the marines and the Shichibukai and the yonkou also match up against each other.


 Who do you think wins?

Akainu + Mihawk

or

Big Mom + Shanks


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## xenos5 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> Why are people acting like the Admirals not being able to "one-shot" Marco means something? *This character can't be one-shot.* All that's noteworthy there is that they (as shown by Kizaru) can deal fatal wounds to him even when he's blocking, using only one attack.



I would not say that. Oda has stated Marco has a regeneration limit. And it shouldn’t be impossible for a Yonko to exceed that regeneration limit with the power of one attack.


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## xenos5 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> There's zero evidence that they can, though.



It depends on the attack really. An attack that can knock G4 Boundman Luffy out in one blow is no joke to be certain.

But maybe a wider AOE attack that would cover Marco’s entire body all at once would be better suited for the task (Boro Breath).


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## xenos5 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> And what evidence is there that Boro Breath or Kaidou's club attack is more damaging than Kizaru's laser spam?



You’re trying to shift the burden of proof. Kaido’s Boro Breath has shown seriously huge AOE and power. What has Kizaru’s laser spam done that Boro Breath couldn’t do better?

We saw from when Marco regenerated from the laser spam that sections of his body were more damaged than others. But Boro Breath is so huge he’d have to regenerate his entire body at once, he would be equally burned all over.


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## xenos5 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> @xenos5
> 
> What burden of proof am I shifting?
> I claimed in the beginning that the Admirals have been implied to be able to deal fatal damage to FM-level characters who are defending through Marco and this has implications for their portrayal vs the Yonkou and Akainu's opponents here. Then you said that it is possible that Kaidou could do so much damage to Marco that Marco would be unable to regenerate from his attack, and this would obviously have contrary implications.
> ...



I’m talking about the distrubition of damage. Marco would be burned to a crisp all over his body due to the sheer size of Boro Breath. We saw (from the locations of the healing flames) that Kizaru’s laser spam didn’t cover Marco’s entire body.

On top of that Kaido doesn’t have to use Boro Breath like a simple energy blast. He could use it continuously like an energy beam.

It’d be like if Marco had to try to keep healing while in the middle of a volcano. His rate of regeneration would just get completely outpaced if he tried to keep regenerating in the middle of a continuous beam from a Yonko.


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## xenos5 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> I understand your point about the distribution but I don't see how it matters. Even if he could burn all of Marco's body, it doesn't follow he can one-shot him.



If I were to compare Kaido’s single shot Boro Breath to Kizaru’s laser spam I would say Boro Breath is like a nuke while the laser spam is like multiple anti-tank rounds being fired off. One has concentrated energy over one huge area while the other has concentrated energy over multiple smaller areas.

If Marco’s body is burned all over at once it could exceed Marco’s pain tolerance and KO him due to that. I do not think Marco’s *durability* is greater than G4 Boundman. Getting hit by Boro Breath would be like getting hit by an equal or greater level of force than the Club Strike that hit G4 Luffy except all over the body at once. You’d have to think Marco’s endurance and/or Durability would have to be to ridiculously far above Luffy’s for him to not get KOd by that. And we know Luffy’s endurance is itself ridiculous considering he was hit by powerful attack after powerful attack for 12+ hours and would not stay down (even after a nasty stab wound tore a chunk out of him).



YellowCosmos said:


> You also don't know if Boro Breath can be fired like a continuous energy beam (*and I doubt it can considering it seems to be breath based - Kaidou was blowing out his cheeks when shooting it*) nor do you know that Kizaru can't keep shooting his lasers for as long as it takes Marco's regeneration to run out.



Uh, all he’d have to do for it to be continuous is take a deeper/longer breath in before he breathes out. There’s nothing stopping him from doing that. Heck other dragons in fiction do continuous fire Breath all the damn time.

If Marco was hit by both Kaido’s continuous Boro Breath and Kizaru’s continues laser beam spam I would say Kaido’s attack would outpace Marco’s regeneration much faster. A continuous Boro Breath would be like being hit by the force that knocked out G4 Boundman Luffy multiple times at once. To believe Marco wouldn’t be KOd by that you would have to think G4 Luffy is an absolute joke to Marco and would never have a chance of KOing him whether he uses Kong Organ for a long time or keeps pushing with King Kong Gun, but I just don’t believe that.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 4, 2018)

YellowCosmos said:


> Why are people acting like the Admirals not being able to "one-shot" Marco means something? This character _can't_ be one-shot. All that's noteworthy there is that they (as shown by Kizaru) can deal fatal wounds to him even when he's blocking, using only one attack.



Someone indicated that Akainu is defeating Marco and Katakuri with a combined total of two hits. I'm only pointing out how ridiculous it sounds, as Marco literally can't be one-shotted by anyone. Regardless, Akainu has never one-shotted any G4 Luffy-level character that was on the offensive, so the difference in portrayal is immense. Just because Kaidou did something doesn't mean that Akainu can. As it stands, Akainu is far inferior based on feats.


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## Icegaze (Nov 5, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Someone indicated that Akainu is defeating Marco and Katakuri with a combined total of two hits. I'm only pointing out how ridiculous it sounds, as Marco literally can't be one-shotted by anyone. Regardless, Akainu has never one-shotted any G4 Luffy-level character that was on the offensive, so the difference in portrayal is immense. Just because Kaidou did something doesn't mean that Akainu can. As it stands, Akainu is far inferior based on feats.



That was me and I stand by my statement
Being able to regen doesn’t mean you can’t be 1 shot 
Unless you are saying no one can kill tsunade for example in 1 hit 

So yes Marco has shown NOTHING to imply if akainu wanted to punch through him and murder him he wouldn’t be able to in 1 hit 

If akainu can’t do that then you are implying kaido Is horrendously above all marines by a nasty gap 

If so why doesn’t he just kill all marines 

Clearly if akainu can be held up by 2 FM while kaido can 1 shot an FM level with a causal attack 

Then it’s fair to say kaido can probably beat 10 akainu

If you believe that then oda Is shit at writing stories as It makes no sense to have marines be that much weaker than Yonko

I say Yonko generally because again if the others weren’t on his general level then why Is kaido sharing with them 

Why not kill them for sport


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## Gohara (Nov 5, 2018)

Marco is okay even after being significantly nerfed from seastone and having his defensive devil fruit abilities nullified, I don't think that really constitutes proof that Kizaru can wound Marco to that degree however I'm also not convinced that there is a character in One Piece that can one shot Marco.


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## Corax (Nov 10, 2018)

Assuming that Marco still needs stamina to regenerate and can't regenerate endlessly Akainu should take it. He can fight for 10 days,so likely he has way more stamina than Marco. Katakuri isn't a factor here as he can't regenerate and a good magama hit enhanced with haki might seriously damage his mochi form or may be even kill him. And unlike Luffy Akainu has good area of effect attacks that are very hard to dodge even if they can be seen beforehand.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Nov 10, 2018)

Marco cannot even hurt Akainu with the help of Vista and every other Whitebeard commander? How is Katakuri's low offense low durability low endurance ass making up the difference?

Akainu wrecks Katakuri then grinds down Marcos healing factor.


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## Lord Stark (Nov 10, 2018)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Marco cannot even hurt Akainu with the help of Vista and every other Whitebeard commander? How is Katakuri's low offense low durability low endurance ass making up the difference?
> 
> Akainu wrecks Katakuri then grinds down Marcos healing factor.



Marco and Vista's CoO was disturbed by Ace's death. Marco showed no problems touching the real bodies of Kizaru and Aokiji. and sent them flying.  No proof Akainu's is that much further above them.


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