# Fantastic Four vs. Goku



## strongarm85 (Feb 29, 2008)

Everyone gets 2 days to prepare and Goku is allowed to collect the Dragon Balls.


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## DeusExMachina (Feb 29, 2008)

The moment you give Reed prep, it's all over.


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## Ax_ (Feb 29, 2008)

DeusExMachina said:


> The moment you give Reed prep, it's all over.



Pretty much all that can be said, really...
However, had it been without prep, Goku would have won so this really isn't a good match either way...


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## The Fireball Kid (Feb 29, 2008)

> Goku is allowed to collect the Dragon Balls



Goku wishes for immortality and stomps.


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## Banhammer (Feb 29, 2008)

Make it no prep.
Sue turns her whole family and pops a buble on goku.


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## DeusExMachina (Feb 29, 2008)

Cell said:


> Goku wishes for immortality and stomps.



Reeds take out the Ultimate Nullifier, which would nullify that completely.


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## Slips (Feb 29, 2008)

couldnt sue just say fuck you and stick a force field over his head


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## The Fireball Kid (Feb 29, 2008)

DeusExMachina said:


> Reeds take out the Ultimate Nullifier, which would nullify that completely.



Goku wishes them all into the Room of Spirit and Time, uses Shunkan Ido to go outside, destroys the door and traps them in an alternate dimension forever.


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## Banhammer (Feb 29, 2008)

Cell said:


> Goku wishes them all into the Room of Spirit and Time, uses Shunkan Ido to go outside, destroys the door and traps them in an alternate dimension forever.



sue pops a brain aneurisma in his brain of the battle.
goku wondeers what's that soft embrace that has paralized him and is siphoning the life out of his body
the end.


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## Slips (Feb 29, 2008)

Cell said:


> Goku wishes them all into the Room of Spirit and Time, uses Shunkan Ido to go outside, destroys the door and traps them in an alternate dimension forever.



It would take Reed about 30 seconds to figure a way out


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## Aokiji (Feb 29, 2008)

Hisoka said:


> It would take Reed about 30 seconds to figure a way out



Lol, WHAT!?!

I know Reed is a genius, but you can't get out of a dimension without tools and tech. He doesn't have his tech there, or does he always cary a dimension cracker with him?


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## Ax_ (Feb 29, 2008)

Hisoka said:


> It would take Reed about 30 seconds to figure a way out



Sure, he could think of a way out, but can he put said plan into action without anything on him to use?


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## Nice Gai (Feb 29, 2008)

I am sure he could come up with an Saiyan Repellent suits.


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## Dave (Feb 29, 2008)

Cell said:


> Goku wishes them all into the Room of Spirit and Time, uses Shunkan Ido to go outside, destroys the door and traps them in an alternate dimension forever.



I see we are saying things that would never happen.


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## HumanWine (Feb 29, 2008)

WTF happened to Goku's blitzfuck?


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## Jackal (Feb 29, 2008)

goku just wishes they all die


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## Darklyre (Feb 29, 2008)

Two days of prep means Reed grabs the bloody Power Gem and the Ultimate Nullifier. He's now completely invulnerable and can kill damn near anything short of the LT.


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## Xelloss (Mar 1, 2008)

Its funny that people are taking for granted that goku its making smart wishes. Without preparation and blitz speed goku 80% win rate, with preparation... >< poor goku.


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## Evangeline (Mar 1, 2008)

Yeah, Reeds with prep = Dead Goku.


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## Slips (Mar 1, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Sure, he could think of a way out, but can he put said plan into action without anything on him to use?



Its reed he always carry's a swiss army dimension escaping knife


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## SSJKrillin (Mar 1, 2008)

if goku is bloodlusted and knows about the f4 he'll make a wish like "make richard helan keller (sp?)".if reed knows what to prepare for than he wins. otherwise goku rapes their children... up the pooper.


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## mystictrunks (Mar 1, 2008)

"I wish Reed wasn't smart"

MMHMM.


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## Banhammer (Mar 1, 2008)

He should have wished himsef imune to bubles in his brains.


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## Ryuk (Mar 1, 2008)

Goku takes this.  Spirit Nuke their ass.


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## Prowler (Mar 1, 2008)

*Goku wins this in a easy way. *


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## Protect_The_Butter (Mar 1, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> "I wish Reed wasn't smart"
> 
> MMHMM.



MEGA LULZ.


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## Dark Evangel (Mar 1, 2008)

Couldn't Goku wish to the Dragonball to make himself infinitely times smarter than Reed?


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## mystictrunks (Mar 1, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> He should have wished himsef imune to bubles in his brains.



Wish 2:
I wish they were in character.


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## Grandmaster Kane (Mar 1, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> Lol, WHAT!?!
> 
> I know Reed is a genius, but you can't get out of a dimension without tools and tech. He doesn't have his tech there, or does he always cary a dimension cracker with him?



didnt u see the scan of luthur trapping superman in a time vortex with some tungsten cans, a flash light, and some lemon juice?


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## Red (Mar 1, 2008)

Xanxus said:


> didnt u see the scan of luthur trapping superman in a time vortex with some tungsten cans, a flash light, and some lemon juice?


Yeah I saw. The power of SCIENCE!


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## -18 (Mar 1, 2008)

Goku stomps


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Well Galactus>Goku, And they Beat Galactus.
And frankly, Modern Reed is insanely smart. With two Days I have NO doubt he could design something to utterly butcher Goku, or just use one of his previous Gadgets to lock goku in an Alternate Dimension.

Its REED for gods sake. 

That said, with no Prep Time and Bloodlusted, Goku just Annihilates the Planet.

prep time=GAME OVER.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

SSJKrillin said:


> if goku is bloodlusted and knows about the f4 he'll make a wish like "make richard helan keller (sp?)".if reed knows what to prepare for than he wins. otherwise goku rapes their children... up the pooper.



LMAO, Franklin Richards will turn Goku,Gohan,Goten,Vegeta,Every Buu,Vegito, and just because he is a heterosexual male Chi Chi and Bulma's ass inside out. Franklin would solo the DBverse.

FF wins with prep, but for without I'm not as convinced as everyone they lose.Sue's shield has taken blasts from Mjonnir,and hits from it. It's also survived Gamma explosions, and it took down a god damn Celestial. If Sue can take down a Celestial I think she should be able to handle Goku. Albeit her shield might be the same energy as the Celestial, she still cracked its armor which is a hell of a feat.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> LMAO, Franklin Richards will turn Goku,Gohan,Goten,Vegeta,Every Buu,Vegito, and just because he is a heterosexual male Chi Chi and Bulma's ass inside out. Franklin would solo the DBverse.
> 
> FF wins with prep, but for without I'm not as convinced as everyone they lose.Sue's shield has taken blasts from Mjonnir,and hits from it. It's also survived Gamma explosions, and it took down a god damn Celestial. If Sue can take down a Celestial I think she should be able to handle Goku.



Goku is about a thousand times stronger than A god. As we see from his own Universe, where he's demonstrably stronger than them all. He beat Buu, who was easily eating the greatest of them.

Aside from that, Sue couldn't stop a blast From Galactus with her Forcefield, and Galactus can't blow up a planet with his power, he can absorb the energy in it, but its not the same.


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## Power16 (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Goku is about a thousand times stronger than A god. As we see from his own Universe, where he's demonstrably stronger than them all. He beat Buu, who was easily eating the greatest of them.
> 
> Aside from that, Sue couldn't stop a blast From Galactus with her Forcefield, and *Galactus can't blow up a planet with his power*, he can absorn the energy in it, but its not the same.



 I hope you were talking about that blast he use on Sue wasn't planet busting material and not saying that Galactus that has busted a solar system while in a weaken state can't destroy a planet!


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## Juubi (Mar 1, 2008)

Lol. Reed's preptime>>>DBverse


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Goku is about a thousand times stronger than A god. As we see from his own Universe, where he's demonstrably stronger than them all. He beat Buu, who was easily eating the greatest of them.
> 
> Aside from that, Sue couldn't stop a blast From Galactus with her Forcefield, and Galactus can't blow up a planet with his power, he can absorn the energy in it, but its not the same.




Your gods die their weak.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Tomoye said:


> Your gods die their weak.


Your argument dies, its also weak. So is your grammar.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Goku is about a thousand times stronger than A god. As we see from his own Universe, where he's demonstrably stronger than them all. He beat Buu, who was easily eating the greatest of them.
> 
> Aside from that, Sue couldn't stop a blast From Galactus with her Forcefield, and Galactus can't blow up a planet with his power, he can absorn the energy in it, but its not the same.



The Gods of Marvel would make Goku shit his pants, the majority of them would rape him. Just because the gods in the DBverse are weak as hell doesn't mean its a feat for Goku it just makes him better by comparison. And Goku beat the second or third weakest form of Buu depending on where you rank Evil Buu.

She beat Exitar a Celestial, I don't even know where you got Galactus from but Galactus is a Galaxy buster. She also held off blasts from Doom when he had the power of a Watcher.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> The Gods of Marvel would make Goku shit his pants, the majority of them would rape him. Just because the gods in the DBverse are weak as hell doesn't mean its a feat for Goku it just makes him better by comparison. And Goku beat the second or third weakest form of Buu depending on where you rank Evil Buu.
> 
> She beat Exitar a Celestial, I don't even know where you got Galactus from but Galactus is a Galaxy buster. She also held off blasts from Doom when he had the power of a Watcher.



Uhh. Goku beat the final buu, who was the strongest without a doubt, sue has a strong forcefield, but she wasnt able to contain the Hulk, who certainly can't destroy a planet. Half the time when a strong being hits her, she collapses and says the feedback was too great, and many times its penetrated by beings lower on the powerscale than a celestial.

Frankly, Goku Is a Galaxy buster too. at SS1 he had the power to blow up a planet, SS2 doubled that, SS3 More than doubled that, SS4... we're talking a lot of power at any rate.

I don't think that the gods of the Gokuverse are THAT weak, they are certainly pretty strong, not sure if they're on the level of Marvel gods, but goku Rapestomps them either way so its not a huge issue.

I've already said the FF win with the prep time either way.


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Uhh. Goku beat the final buu, who was the strongest without a doubt, sue has a strong forcefield, but she wasnt able to contain the Hulk, who certainly can't destroy a planet. Half the time when a strong being hits her, she collapses and says the feedback was too great, and many times its penetrated by beings lower on the powerscale than a celestial.
> 
> Frankly, Goku Is a Galaxy buster too. at SS1 he had the power to blow up a planet, SS2 doubled that, SS3 More than doubled that, SS4... we're talking a lot of power at any rate.
> 
> ...



If their are gods that  die their weak.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Tomoye said:


> If their are gods that  die their weak.



Nearly as weak as this clear attempts to farm postcount.


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Your argument dies, its also weak. So is your grammar.



No,  you at like their your gods you think that the gods in dbz are like all the other ones in other series.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Tomoye said:


> No,  you at like their your gods you think that the gods in dbz are like all the other ones in other series.



I assume this is English but I really have no idea.
Im guessing you're saying that the gods in DBZ arent the same as the Marvel gods? We've already covered this, read the other arguments at least before you critique. Its just sensible.


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## Power16 (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Uhh. Goku beat the final buu, who was the strongest without a doubt, sue has a strong forcefield, but she wasnt able to contain the Hulk, who certainly can't destroy a planet. Half the time when a strong being hits her, she collapses and says the feedback was too great, and many times its penetrated by beings lower on the powerscale than a celestial.
> 
> *Frankly, Goku Is a Galaxy buster too. at SS1 he had the power to blow up a planet, SS2 doubled that, SS3 More than doubled that, SS4... we're talking a lot of power at any rate.*
> 
> ...



Hulk destroy asteroid twice the size of earth, fyi.

All that doubling won't even bring him to Star busting but your saying Galaxy buster so casually. Lol!

Goku rapestomps who, didn't quite get that last part.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Uhh. Goku beat the final buu, who was the strongest without a doubt, sue has a strong forcefield, but she wasnt able to contain the Hulk, who certainly can't destroy a planet. Half the time when a strong being hits her, she collapses and says the feedback was too great, and many times its penetrated by beings lower on the powerscale than a celestial.



You haven't read the manga have you or hung around forums in general have you? If you did then you would know that when we debate on this forum we use the Manga because its canon in most instances. Anyway lets start off with the fact that Kid Buu is one of the weaker Buu's. All 4 Super Buu's are stronger, Fat Buu is debatably stronger as well, as is Evil Buu, but for the sake of argument he is number 5 at best.

Yet Sue has done things like have her shields hold out for a while against Watcher level beings, Galactus, Gladiator, and the Hulk. By the way the Hulk braced a mountain that was 150 billion tons, has moved Islands, has thunder clapped cosmos destroying energy blasts back to their originator, and he has smashed through an asteroid twice the size of Earth. The Hulk at his best would crush a planet.



Absence said:


> Frankly, Goku Is a Galaxy buster too. at SS1 he had the power to blow up a planet, SS2 doubled that, SS3 More than doubled that, SS4... we're talking a lot of power at any rate.



And it requires so much more power to bust a galaxy than a planet, the number is so big its in scientifc notation. No one in DBZ has the power to do it with one blast, NOONE. And SSJ4 isn't even canon.



Absence said:


> I don't think that the gods of the Gokuverse are THAT weak, they are certainly pretty strong, not sure if they're on the level of Marvel gods, but goku Rapestomps them either way so its not a huge issue.
> 
> I've already said the FF win with the prep time either way.




No the gods from his verse are weak as hell and are pathetic compared to those of other verses.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Power16 said:


> Hulk destroy asteroid twice the size of earth, fyi.
> 
> All that doubling won't even bring him to Star busting but your saying Galaxy buster so casually. Lol!
> 
> Goku rapestomps who, didn't quite get that last part.



lets say, that each SSJ powerup Doubled Goku's power.
SS1 he has the power to blow up a planet, with one Kamehameha, As Frieza did with one death ball. And he can do it a lot mor ethan once.
SS2 Double the size of the planets, I guess,
SS3, he's at 4 times the strength needed to annihilate the planet with One blow.
SS4 He's at the kind of power that would allow him to blow up a Star at the VERY least.

Goku has instant transmission, He can just pull a Buu here, IT to all the planets, One blast, blow it up, IT to the next, and so on, and he was a match for Buu at SS3.
Keeping the idea of the doubling factor...
Ouch. Buu was a Galaxy Buster, it was clearly stated that he was going to clear the entire Galaxy of Life.

The argument was Goku Versus The FF, Not "Manga Only Goku versus the FF"
Since when is the Final boss weaker than all the previous forms? Last I checked Final buu was a LOT stronger, because the weakening effect of the Grand Kai's kindess being absorbed into him was Finally Purged, and he was back to his absolute strongest.


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> lets say, that each SSJ powerup Doubled Goku's power.
> SS1 he has the power to blow up a planet, with one Kamehameha, As Frieza did with one death ball. And he can do it a lot mor ethan once.
> SS2 Double the size of the planets, I guess,
> SS3, he's at 4 times the strength needed to annihilate the planet with One blow.
> ...



A Galaxy Buster? No he was going to destory each planet one by one. What you didn't get? Because Goku beat the gods in his world he can beat anybody thats not how it works.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Tomoye said:


> A Galaxy Buster? No he was going to destory each planet one by one.



So, tell me, if someone blows up all the Planets in the galaxy, he's not a galaxy buster? Interesting argument, don't doublepost either, just edit previous ones.


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## Power16 (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> lets say, that each SSJ powerup Doubled Goku's power.
> SS1 he has the power to blow up a planet, with one Kamehameha, As Frieza did with one death ball. And he can do it a lot mor ethan once.
> SS2 Double the size of the planets, I guess,
> SS3, he's at 4 times the strength needed to annihilate the planet with One blow.
> ...



Check this out, Our sun can fit 1,000,000 Earth's in it so really what is all that doubling of power going to do? He still won't reach the level to destroy the sun and that's what he would need to cause a nova blast a star system that is still millions of miles away from Galaxy busting.

What your mentionning is still planet busting and not galaxy busting. Do you know how Buu did and how long it took him?

Final was the most evil not the most powerful, that's a fact.

edit: Absence no it's not. When you call some one a solar system buster or galaxy buster is when they can do it in one shot.


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## PATRON (Mar 1, 2008)

the god awful worst beat down in animation, goku wins 5 mins tops


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## Power16 (Mar 1, 2008)

This is a prep battle buddy pay attention!


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> So, tell me, if someone blows up all the Planets in the galaxy, he's not a galaxy buster? Interesting argument, don't doublepost either, just edit previous ones.




Wow you really are indeed arrogant beyond belief if you blow all the planets in  the galaxy and  galaxy is still there you didn't bust it use your brain. Plus the galaxy has more then planets you know the sun and many more stars and comets flying around.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> lets say, that each SSJ powerup Doubled Goku's power.
> SS1 he has the power to blow up a planet, with one Kamehameha, As Frieza did with one death ball. And he can do it a lot mor ethan once.
> SS2 Double the size of the planets, I guess,
> SS3, he's at 4 times the strength needed to annihilate the planet with One blow.
> ...



Do you even know what a Galaxy is, it includes stars. By the time Goku got through a quarter of the stars,planets, not to mention moons, the star dust would reform into planets. I'd even wager if his energy was infinite he still wouldn't be able to do it before everything reformed. He doesn't have the power to do it. You're being ridiculous if you think Goku has the power to bust a Galaxy, the guy can't even do a solar system. 

Buu was going to bust planet to planet, thats not galaxy busting, moons and stars still need to be busted. 

Its manga only because the anime isn't canon, its not the primary source material the manga is. Buu was made weaker so Goku could be the hero of the story, let me pose this to you so you can get it. Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu, whom Gohan destroyed, but he agreed with Vegeta that he would annihilate Kid Buu. Then their is also the basic arguement that if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu, and Goku beat him then why did he fuse with Vegeta to beat Super Buu 3 who should be weaker than Kid Buu using your logic.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Power16 said:


> Check this out, Our sun can fit 1,000,000 Earth's in it so really what is all that doubling of power going to do? He still won't reach the level to destroy the sun and that's what he would need to cause a nova blast a star system that is still millions of miles away from Galaxy busting.
> 
> What your mentionning is still planet busting and not galaxy busting. Do you know how Buu did and how long it took him?
> 
> ...



Ok, fine, so Goku Can "Only" blow up the Galaxy given a few days.
(They said that Buu had destroyed MANY Galaxies) And Goku kicked his ass.


You are correct, I checked my facts and Kid Buu isnt the strongest, he's apparently the second, right After Mystic Buu, but he's the most Dangerous because he's... well... Completely off his rocker mad and quite willing to slaughter ever living being in the universe.

Right: So, Goku is "only" A planet buster, but he's a planet buster of the order of "One weak blast per planet"

Sue wasnt able to block a shot from Galactus that was CLEARLY not of Planet busting Proportions.

Goku>Sue.
Reed>Goku with 2 days prep time.
And this is just direct power.
Gokue can Instantaneously Teleport.
Anywhere.
I mean, thats a bit dangerous rigt there. So what if she puts him in a forcefield? Boom, he's behind her with a kamehameha.


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## Tomoye (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Ok, fine, so Goku Can "Only" blow up the Galaxy given a few days.
> (They said that Buu had destroyed MANY Galaxies) And Goku kicked his ass.
> 
> 
> ...



Buu kicked his ass he needed the energy of others to make the spirit bomb and Vegeta kept buu busy to make it so Buu was stronger.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Ok, fine, so Goku Can "Only" blow up the Galaxy given a few days.
> (They said that Buu had destroyed MANY Galaxies) And Goku kicked his ass.
> 
> 
> ...





If Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu then Goku wouldn't be able to "annihilate" him at full power.

Sue blocks blasts from Watcher level beings, basically she blocks attacks that should help her block Goku's blasts.

Sue doesn't have to put him in a forcefield she can simply make one in him and kill him.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> If Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu then Goku wouldn't be able to "annihilate" him at full power.
> 
> Sue blocks blasts from Watcher level beings, basically she blocks attacks that should help her block Goku's blasts.
> 
> Sue doesn't have to put him in a forcefield she can simply make one in him and kill him.



Now you're just trying to argue for the sake of Argument.
How does blocking a watcher help her block Goku? or are you saying she can block both? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Goku, at SS3 Was a match For kid buu right?
Goku, at ss4, Would stomp him. Think about it.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Now you're just trying to argue for the sake of Argument.
> How does blocking a watcher help her block Goku? or are you saying she can block both?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Goku, at SS3 Was a match For kid buu right?
> Goku, at ss4, Would stomp him. Think about it.



No I'm arguing because pretty much every point you've made has been wrong, and if you spend a prolonged amount of time on this forum I don't want you to look like a fool because you don't know any better.

She blocked a Watcher level blast, a Watcher would take Goku to task thus she held up for a while against a being stronger than Goku. This means that should could block Goku's blast for a while, especially when you consider her shields take blows from world breaking Mjonnir and strong as hell Gladiator. Sue has the ability to win this fight for her team if she has the FF backing her because they can survive long enough for her to give Goku an aneurism.

Goku at full power SSJ 3 was said to be able to annihilate Kid Buu, but his living body couldn't handle the energy thus he fought at a level of power equal to Kid Buu. Goku's energy is finite though so he wasn't able to keep up his pace throughout the whole fight.And ignoring the fact that SSJ 4 isn't canon and comes from glorified fan fiction its a non factor since Goku can't go SSJ 4. The point is that Goku was afraid of Super Buu but not of Kid Buu which means that Kid Buu is weaker.


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## Banhammer (Mar 1, 2008)

why does an invisible sue needs to block anything?
Battle starts, goku looks for enemy, his brain happens to explode
the end.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> No I'm arguing because pretty much every point you've made has been wrong, and if you spend a prolonged amount of time on this forum I don't want you to look like a fool because you don't know any better.
> 
> She blocked a Watcher level blast, a Watcher would take Goku to task thus she held up for a while against a being stronger than Goku. This means that should could block Goku's blast for a while, especially when you consider her shields take blows from world breaking Mjonnir and strong as hell Gladiator. Sue has the ability to win this fight for her team if she has the FF backing her because they can survive long enough for her to give Goku an aneurism.
> 
> Goku at full power SSJ 3 was said to be able to annihilate Kid Buu, but his living body couldn't handle the energy thus he fought at a level of power equal to Kid Buu. Goku's energy is finite though so he wasn't able to keep up his pace throughout the whole fight.And ignoring the fact that SSJ 4 isn't canon and comes from glorified fan fiction its a non factor since Goku can't go SSJ 4. The point is that Goku was afraid of Super Buu but not of Kid Buu which means that Kid Buu is weaker.



1: Its Wrong in YOUR opinon, and you call me a fool? And they call me arrogant.
2: Whats this fallacy that a watcher has equal or even similar powers to goku? Maybe watchers are stronger, maybe they arent, maybe they have similar effects on intangible forcefields, maybe they don't. 
Fact remains, that if sue could stop a blast from goku: A: She should be able to shield the whole planet EASILY from any threats, at all times, considering that Goku's blast can EASILY annihilate said planet.

3: Goku can TELEPORT. TELEPORTATION+ PLANET BUSTING CAPABILITIES ARE AN ISSUE.

All he needs to do is teleport somewhere on the planet that sue ISNT. Blow the planet up and bang. Dead ff. Thats even if she can block his blasts.

How do you know Saiyans react the same way as we do to Anyeurisms? It may not even be an issue. For all we know a saiyan may be able to survive with half their brain dead.

What would the Human Torch, the Thing, and Mr Fantastic with no Gagets do versus a planetblasing laser beam? I mean aside from die.


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## ~Urahara Kisuke~ (Mar 1, 2008)

those planet busting lasers all waysw in except when there used on goku


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## Red (Mar 1, 2008)

Human torch goes Nova Good Game Goku.


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## atom (Mar 1, 2008)

"I wish no one had prep"

Goku stomps.



> Human torch goes Nova Good Game Goku.


Instant Transmission away, then come back after its over and kill Torch easily.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Sonic said:


> "I wish no one had prep"
> 
> Goku stomps.
> 
> ...



For sure, being able to teleport anywhere in the universe instantly is a massive advantage.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> 1: Its Wrong in YOUR opinon, and you call me a fool? And they call me arrogant.






Absence said:


> 2: Whats this fallacy that a watcher has equal or even similar powers to goku? Maybe watchers are stronger, maybe they arent, maybe they have similar effects on intangible forcefields, maybe they don't.
> Fact remains, that if sue could stop a blast from goku: A: She should be able to shield the whole planet EASILY from any threats, at all times, considering that Goku's blast can EASILY annihilate said planet.



A Watcher would fucking destroy Goku,its a fact any person with half a brain can see that. Uatu has created fucking stars, and the "Rogue Watcher" has rearranged planets and stars to his liking. She held up a shield against a being with that kind of power.And Goku would be aiming at Sue so she doesn't have to shield the whole planet, do you even know how ki works in the series your arguing for? They condense their ki and aim it at a target, which is what Vegeta did when he used Final Flash on Cell. And why should she be able to shield the whole planet, she is making shields the size of the energy wave or around herself and blocking blasts with that not saving the whole planet from ruin.



Absence said:


> 3: Goku can TELEPORT. TELEPORTATION+ PLANET BUSTING CAPABILITIES ARE AN ISSUE.
> 
> All he needs to do is teleport somewhere on the planet that sue ISNT. Blow the planet up and bang. Dead ff. Thats even if she can block his blasts.
> 
> ...



GG for Goku then because he'll die if he just destroys the planet, and you do realize he needs a ki signature to teleport he can't just do it like Supreme Kai. 

Saiyans eat,shit, and breath they're humanoids who just have amazing powers, their is more evidence to support them dying of an aneurism than not. The burden on proof would be on you to prove they could survive such a thing.

Well Human Torch can shoot Goku with 2 million degrees of heat to distract him while Sue gives him an aneurism. Goku isn't going to be able to instantly kill all of them in one go, Sue shields Goku's blast and Johnny hits him from another angle potentially killing him or giving Sue enough of a window to make a shield in Goku's head.


----------



## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> A Watcher would fucking destroy Goku,its a fact any person with half a brain can see that. Uatu has created fucking stars, and the "Rogue Watcher" has rearranged planets and stars to his liking. She held up a shield against a being with that kind of power.And Goku would be aiming at Sue so she doesn't have to shield the whole planet, do you even know how ki works in the series your arguing for? They condense their ki and aim it at a target, which is what Vegeta did when he used Final Flash on Cell. And why should she be able to shield the whole planet, she is making shields the size of the energy wave or around herself and blocking blasts with that not saving the whole planet from ruin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Q: WHY would he die? Considering there's no reason why he can't fire then teleport?
Or fire froma bit further outide the atmosphere?

Jonny could hurt him? He takes blasts that LEVEL CITIES and doesnt even feel them. Jhonny is only that strong when he goes nova, and Again, Goku can teleport ANYWHERE. If she can Shield enough Energy to destroy the planet, she can Shield the planet.
Buu copied Goku's teleport ability and teleported to planets around the Galaxy and annihilated them. Goku can teleport. 
Goku never evenneeds to come into sight of the FF. Fight starts, Teleport outside Atmosphere, Annihilate planet, go off and do something else.

He has unlimited Movement.
You say he needs a Ki signature to teleport to? Fine, he can teleport to a Skruul Planet, or to the other side of the earth next to a person.


----------



## atom (Mar 1, 2008)

Soultaker, shields aren't going to do anything since Goku could just teleport inside of them then proceed to rape Sue.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Q: WHY would he die? Considering there's no reason why he can't fire then teleport?
> Or fire froma bit further outide the atmosphere?



Because Goku wouldn't have enough time to focus on a place to teleport to after destroying the planet, and he can't survive outside the atmosphere. Remember the whole thing about him not being able to survive in space?



Absence said:


> Jonny could hurt him? He takes blasts that LEVEL CITIES and doesnt even feel them. Jhonny is only that strong when he goes nova, and Again, Goku can teleport ANYWHERE. If she can Shield enough Energy to destroy the planet, she can Shield the planet.
> Buu copied Goku's teleport ability and teleported to planets around the Galaxy and annihilated them. Goku can teleport.
> Goku never evenneeds to come into sight of the FF. Fight starts, Teleport outside Atmosphere, Annihilate planet, go off and do something else.



Johnny was talking casually about showering Dr.Doom with 2 million degree heat,Johnny going nova is him shooting the blast and if Goku is shooting a blast. Your point about the shield is nonsensical why should she be able to make a planet sized shield if she takes blasts from people who can bust planets especially if the blasts are right at her. That has nothing to do with her being able to shield a planet because its her being attacked not the planet. Goku can't breath outside an atmosphere, thats the part of his problem after he busts the planet, surviving the planet being destroyed and then dying out in space. Buu still needed to focus in on a location, he couldn't find Goku and Vegeta till they raised their energy.



Absence said:


> He has unlimited Movement.
> You say he needs a Ki signature to teleport to? Fine, he can teleport to a Skruul Planet, or to the other side of the earth next to a person.



If he unleashes a planet buster how is he going to go next to a person on Earth, they'd be dead. Goku also has a difficult time locking in on small ki signatures which everyone in the MU has. Goku wouldn't have enough time to focus.


----------



## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Soultaker, shields aren't going to do anything since Goku could just teleport inside of them then proceed to rape Sue.



I know I would. Sue is freaking Hot.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Soultaker, shields aren't going to do anything since Goku could just teleport inside of them then proceed to rape Sue.



If Goku was blasting the shield how would he get in at the same time as blasting it, Sue hasn't had a problem shielding herself from close range fighters like the Hulk or from Thor who both hit a hell of a lot harder than Goku.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> If Goku was blasting the shield how would he get in at the same time as blasting it, Sue hasn't had a problem shielding herself from close range fighters like the Hulk or from Thor who both hit a hell of a lot harder than Goku.



Neither of those can Teleport instantly right behind or in front of her. Or at all for that matter.
All he needs to do is fire a blast, then teleport, he doesnt have to stand behind it and maintain it.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Neither of those can Teleport instantly right behind or in front of her. Or at all for that matter.
> All he needs to do is fire a blast, then teleport, he doesnt have to stand behind it and maintain it.



If Goku doesn't maintain it then there is no chance in hell he is breaking her shields which go up with a thought. Goku can't just use IT like that, if he could he would have used it a hell of a lot more in battle, it requires time to focus. Sue's shield is also all around her when she uses it. Again this is 4 on 1 so when Goku takes aim at anyone and Sue shields it Goku is getting blasted by 2 million degrees of heat while he tries to break the shield. Sue is so broken it's not even fucking funny.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> If Goku doesn't maintain it then there is no chance in hell he is breaking her shields which go up with a thought. Goku can't just use IT like that, if he could he would have used it a hell of a lot more in battle, it requires time to focus. Sue's shield is also all around her when she uses it. Again this is 4 on 1 so when Goku takes aim at anyone and Sue shields it Goku is getting blasted by 2 million degrees of heat while he tries to break the shield. Sue is so broken it's not even fucking funny.



The torches normal heat isnt 2 million Degrees. And he can Fire the blast, let her focus on it, teleport inside her shield and rape her.
or, as said before, just teleport somewhere else and fry the planet.
Even if her shield can block it, which I disagree on, Goku can literally just make a quick hand Gesture to fire a blast, he doesnt need a powerup, and she will HAVE to use her shield to block it, because without her shield, she's a normal human, and Goku's weak blasts would destroy her utterly.

Goku can also fly incredibly fast, and fire blasts from several locations.
He can fly a LOT faster than the Torch, and faster than the thing can move. And faster than Reed can Stretch. 
he can fly at superman speed, IE: Encirclethe planet in a minute. The torch never demonstrates that kind of speed.

And again, Instant teleportation is a MASSIVE advantage.
He can use it like that btw, have you seen the movie versus Cooler?

They had an IT battle.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> The torches normal heat isnt 2 million Degrees. And he can Fire the blast, let her focus on it, teleport inside her shield and rape her.





He casually says he is going to hit Doom with 2 million degrees of heat, If they were Zombie F4 then they would be having roasted Goku for dinner. How is the blast going to be maintained to distract Sue then, and again if Thor and Hulk can't hit Sue close quarters then Goku isn't. Furthermore the rest of the F4 isn't going to allow Sue to just get raped by Goku.



Absence said:


> or, as said before, just teleport somewhere else and fry the planet.
> Even if her shield can block it, which I disagree on, Goku can literally just make a quick hand Gesture to fire a blast, he doesnt need a powerup, and she will HAVE to use her shield to block it, because without her shield, she's a normal human, and Goku's weak blasts would destroy her utterly.



Where the hell is Goku going to go, he can't go out of the atmosphere he'll die, and he won't have enough time to focus on a place to go to escape the planet exploding which again goes back to the fact he can't survive in space. And her shield goes completely around her so even if Goku launched a blast and snuck up behind her he still isn't getting through. Her shield blocks blasts that are stronger than Goku's and she has the F4 backing her up.



Absence said:


> Goku can also fly incredibly fast, and fire blasts from several locations.
> He can fly a LOT faster than the Torch, and faster than the thing can move. And faster than Reed can Stretch.
> he can fly at superman speed, IE: Encirclethe planet in a minute. The torch never demonstrates that kind of speed.
> 
> And again, Instant teleportation is a MASSIVE advantage.



Goku can't encircle the planet in a second,he is not FTL and even if Goku went around just launching blast after blast Sue shields the team and takes it all. And Goku is by no means a lot faster than Johnny, Johnny has been known to keep up with Silver Surfer.


----------



## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> He casually says he is going to hit Doom with 2 million degrees of heat, If they were Zombie F4 then they would be having roasted Goku for dinner. How is the blast going to be maintained to distract Sue then, and again if Thor and Hulk can't hit Sue close quarters then Goku isn't. Furthermore the rest of the F4 isn't going to allow Sue to just get raped by Goku.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats what he SAID. Did he DO It? Did he burn doom to death with 2 million degree heat? Goku, and Thor are different cookies. For one, Goku can TELEPORT. That means you have someone as strong as thor, able to fire planet destroying blasts from anywhere, and able to TELEPORT. 

Thor can't hit sue, but thor, can't teleport.

And why would he die? Goku has been outside the atmosphere many times in the DBZ verse and not died. And even then, a fit person can hold their breath for over two minutes, and his energy would produce its own heat. He could EASILY teleport outside the atmosphere, and blow up the planet, and go somewhere else in two minutes, its  a LONG time in a fight. Seriously.

Jhonny gets shot out of the sky by normal Villians all the time. He's clearly not flying at mach 7 or more.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Thats what he SAID. Did he DO It? Did he burn doom to death with 2 million degree heat? Goku, and Thor are different cookies. For one, Goku can TELEPORT. That means you have someone as strong as thor, able to fire planet destroying blasts from anywhere, and able to TELEPORT.



Johnny was going to do it, thats why Doom ran away. The fact that Johnny can take out a hemisphere of the planet is enough to support the fact that he can hit Goku with 2 million degrees of heat. Goku isn't in Thor's league, Thor would bend Goku over and spank him, and Goku needs to focus to teleport. Thats why Goku doesn't just pull it out of his ass in every battle, he's used it twice in a fight. And Goku is just going to tire himself out trying to hit Sue's shield,actually she can keep up he shield and give him the aneurism at the same time.



Absence said:


> Thor can't hit sue, but thor, can't teleport.



Thos can't hit Sue in a close range situation, the same applies to Goku.



Absence said:


> And why would he die? Goku has been outside the atmosphere many times in the DBZ verse and not died. And even then, a fit person can hold their breath for over two minutes, and his energy would produce its own heat. He could EASILY teleport outside the atmosphere, and blow up the planet, and go somewhere else in two minutes, its  a LONG time in a fight. Seriously.



Goku has not been outside the atmosphere in DBZ,and remember the whole thing with Freiza how Goku would die in space. And holding your breath has nothing to do with surviving in space, its a vacuum it will makes your head pop like a zit. Thats the reason astronauts wear full body suits and not just the helmets the pressure would destroy them. Goku will die outside the atmosphere.



Absence said:


> Jhonny gets shot out of the sky by normal Villians all the time. He's clearly not flying at mach 7 or more.



He keeps up with Silver Surfer who is way more than mach 7, and Johnny has been stated as being way faster than the speed of sound. And when Johnny is flying his fastest and gets hit by "normal" villains thats PIS even though the F4 villains are mostly very very strong.


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## Ork (Mar 1, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Thos can't hit Sue in a close range situation, the same applies to Goku.
> 
> 
> its a vacuum it will makes your head pop like a zit.
> ...



Firstly: Goku can withstand a much greater pressure difference as he's a LOT denser than a normal human, 
Secondly: The popping thing is a myth. YOu get sick, but you wouldn't explode. 
Thirdly Buu has been outside the atmosphere too, and his head didn't explode.
Fourthly: All teleporters need to focus, otherwise they'd have no idea where they teleport to. Goku needs less than a second to decide where to go, he IT's in battle somtimes, though its underused in the Anime, probably due to being overpowered.

And lastly... what do you not get about teleportation, meaning that melee is essentially meaningless, if goku teleported behind sue from another continent, she wouldn't be expecting it would she? She'd go pop.
The torch can destroy a hemisphere when he goes nova... but he'd kill the rest of the FF doing it, and goku can just teleport.

Either way. the FF get stomped.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 1, 2008)

Goku wishes for immortality. 
Goku wishes for Time Stop ability like Guido.
When the fight starts Goku speed blitzs FF4 before Reed or any of the fodder four can do anything.


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## Dave (Mar 1, 2008)

Redux-shika boo said:


> Goku wishes for immortality.
> Goku wishes for Time Stop ability like Guido.
> When the fight starts Goku speed blitzs FF4 before Reed or any of the fodder four can do anything.



Reed has the power gem, he gets the time gem from Namor, the reality gem from Tony, the soul gem from Dr. Strange, and the ultimate nullifier.  

Reed proceeds to erase the DBZ universe and Goku along with it.

That's of course if you want to say things that would never happen.


----------



## Red (Mar 1, 2008)

Sonic said:


> "I wish no one had prep"
> 
> Goku stomps.
> 
> ...


How would he kill something he can't see would invisible woman make herself and all others around her invisible?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 1, 2008)

Dave said:


> Reed has the power gem, he gets the time gem from Namor, the reality gem from Tony, the soul gem from Dr. Strange, and the ultimate nullifier.
> 
> Reed proceeds to erase the DBZ universe and Goku along with it.
> 
> That's of course if you want to say things that would never happen.



What exactly do you suppose an in character Goku would wish for ? I assume Cis Goku would wish for what he believes the most useful in battle. Both of those seem applicable.

As for Reed, there is 0% chance he would gather any of the other gems, or even bring the ultimate nullifer to a random fight. CIS. meh. 
 show me scans of reed bring the prepped items you claim to fights on a regular basis--- or cite a bunch.....


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## Banhammer (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Secondly: The popping thing is a myth. YOu get sick, but you wouldn't explode.



Right here.

You can tell where you exposed yourself as .... something

I moove thatyou  test the mith and inject yourself with an empty seringe


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## HumanWine (Mar 1, 2008)

Mr.Despair said:


> How would he kill something he can't see would invisible woman make herself and all others around her invisible?


cant goku sense power levels? 
Or he could just blow up the world


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## Darklyre (Mar 1, 2008)

Prep means Reed brings along anything from dimensional portals to planet disintegrators to the Ultimate Nullifier. This is the same guy that takes his family time traveling just for vacations.


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## The Sentry (Mar 1, 2008)

Goku has fought in total darkness without sensing ki, its the same as Invisible Woman and crew being invisible. Goku could just spam generic ki beams in all directions, the FF die a terrible death.

Reeds prep is overrated, REALLY overrated


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## atom (Mar 2, 2008)

Hmmm. Goku wishes for emulation. 
Goku rapes.


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## Ork (Mar 2, 2008)

Goku just Rapes this. Hard.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Absence said:


> Firstly: Goku can withstand a much greater pressure difference as he's a LOT denser than a normal human,



Freiza flat out says Goku would die in space, there is nothing more to this he can't go outside the atmosphere. Hell he has never done it.



Absence said:


> Secondly: The popping thing is a myth. YOu get sick, but you wouldn't explode.



First off the temperature is cold enough to stop molecules from moving around therefore its absolute zero. Secondly the pressure would kill Goku's ears meaning his sense of balance and is gone. Thirdly his body would be deprived of oxygen in a couple of seconds because even if he holds his breath their is no oxygen in space. Fourthly he'd start going Stigmata with blood flowing from his eyes from the pressure. And last but not least Freiza said he would die out in space,as did King Kai, and he pretty much gave credence to this when he used a ship to escape the planet.



Absence said:


> Thirdly Buu has been outside the atmosphere too, and his head didn't explode.



Buu can rip off parts of his body and use them to bludgeon people, can Goku do that? Buu also can regenerate from being blown to pieces, can Goku do that? The rules are obviously very different for Buu.



Absence said:


> Fourthly: All teleporters need to focus, otherwise they'd have no idea where they teleport to. Goku needs less than a second to decide where to go, he IT's in battle somtimes, though its underused in the Anime, probably due to being overpowered.



Normal teleporters like Supreme Kai or Nightcrawler need a few seconds because they just have to think of the place, Goku needs not only the location but the ki signature as well to teleport. It's underused because as far as battle application goes its not that great unless he has time to prep it, or if he is about to get hit by something and has to dodge.



Absence said:


> And lastly... what do you not get about teleportation, meaning that melee is essentially meaningless, if goku teleported behind sue from another continent, she wouldn't be expecting it would she? She'd go pop.
> The torch can destroy a hemisphere when he goes nova... but he'd kill the rest of the FF doing it, and goku can just teleport.
> 
> Either way. the FF get stomped.



Because Goku would really go to another continent and try to blast the F4. Anyway when Sue sees a colored beam of light coming at her shield will cover he, not to mention that she has the other members of the F4 there to help her. And Sue's shield would protect the team from Johnny.

The F4 will take Goku just deal with it.He could take them all down one on one but together he can't do it.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Redux-shika boo said:


> What exactly do you suppose an in character Goku would wish for ? I assume Cis Goku would wish for what he believes the most useful in battle. Both of those seem applicable.
> 
> As for Reed, there is 0% chance he would gather any of the other gems, or even bring the ultimate nullifer to a random fight. CIS. meh.
> show me scans of reed bring the prepped items you claim to fights on a regular basis--- or cite a bunch.....



CIS Goku isn't wishing for immortality I can tell you that much.

I agree with you on gathering the other gems but Reed won't have any qualms about bringing out the power gem or UN for a fight he has prep for. 



Pyrodogg said:


> cant goku sense power levels?
> Or he could just blow up the world



Goku has difficulty reading really low powerlevels which the F4 has.He'd die if he blew up the planet.



Fire Fist Ace said:


> Goku has fought in total darkness without sensing ki, its the same as Invisible Woman and crew being invisible. Goku could just spam generic ki beams in all directions, the FF die a terrible death.
> 
> Reeds prep is overrated, REALLY overrated



Goku could fight Yakon in total darkness because Yakon was a big huge monster whose attacks caused clear changes in the air currents. Invisible Women being invisible is a little different because they're not going to have to take swings at Goku, Torch hits him once with a 2 million degree blast and he's done.Sue's shield would protect the F4 from Goku's blasts.


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## Bullet (Mar 2, 2008)

Cell said:


> Goku wishes for immortality and stomps.




Pretty much.


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## Power16 (Mar 2, 2008)

If Reed is sporting UN it's not going to matter.


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## The Sentry (Mar 2, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> CIS Goku isn't wishing for immortality I can tell you that much.
> 
> I agree with you on gathering the other gems but Reed won't have any qualms about bringing out the power gem or UN for a fight he has prep for.
> 
> ...



How? Sue cant even stop an eye beam from Cyclops for long, the extreme stress Goku will cause to her will kill her


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## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> How? Sue cant even stop an eye beam from Cyclops for long, the extreme stress Goku will cause to her will kill her



She held off a blast from Dr.Doom who had the power of a Watcher, Dr.Doom in this form would dwarf anything Goku could come up with. There is also her blocking eye beams from Galactus for a while. Her shield holding Gladiator for a while, and holding up to Mjonnir for a while, and taking hits from the Hulk from a while. Her shields will tank Goku's blasts for a while, long enough for Johnny to incinerate him.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 2, 2008)

Johnnys heat beams wont Goku's ki forcefield


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Johnnys heat beams wont Goku's ki forcefield



2 million degrees of heat, I really don't think Goku is going to survive that.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 2, 2008)

Jonnhy wont hit him, Jonny gets burned dby his own Nova blast. Goku kills all of them in a city bustin weak kamehameha. Game over


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Jonnhy wont hit him, Jonny gets burned dby his own Nova blast. Goku kills all of them in a city bustin weak kamehameha. Game over



Johnny doesn't get burned by his own fire. Sue's shields would hold Goku's kamehameha and he'd be wide open for Johnny to bake him. Sue could also just hold it there and make a shield in Goku's head giving him a aneurism. If this was one on one Goku could take it but its 4 on one,he won't do it.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 2, 2008)

Re-Read all the times he goes Nova. He burns himself because he cant stand the heat. 
Sue is Goku's only real challenge.


----------



## atom (Mar 2, 2008)

Goku wishes that no one had any powers. Goku is still well above all  of them. Goku stomps.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Re-Read all the times he goes Nova. He burns himself because he cant stand the heat.
> Sue is Goku's only real challenge.



I can't recall Johnny ever burning himself with his flame, the databook even though its flawed even says Johnny's flames don't burn him. Its common knowledge the only thing that can burn him is a flame hotter than his own. Johnny stay nova for a long time because of the energy it takes on him, but the flames don't burn him.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 2, 2008)

Your right, but any flame above his Nova Flame cant burn him, Goku solar flares human torches eyes. A Kamahameha wave can put out fire.


----------



## Power16 (Mar 2, 2008)

When he goes Nova he just burns his power out.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 2, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Your right, but any flame above his Nova Flame can burn him, Goku solar flares human torches eyes. A Kamahameha wave can put out fire.



Its not as if Goku uses solar flare often, and the minute the FF was blinded Sue would have a shield up. Hell I don't even remember him using it outside of DBGT, but thats off the top of my head. And the kamehameha probably could put out fire, or hurt Johnny but Goku would still have to deal with Sue while his attention was on Johnny.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Mar 2, 2008)

Goku wishes the FF4 into mindless babies. Goku kills the babies.


----------



## Darklyre (Mar 2, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Goku wishes that no one had any powers. Goku is still well above all  of them. Goku stomps.



No powers still means Reed is ridiculously smart and still has the bloody Power Gem and Ultimate Nullifier in his grasp.


----------



## Ork (Mar 2, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> No powers still means Reed is ridiculously smart and still has the bloody Power Gem and Ultimate Nullifier in his grasp.



There is some argument that Reeds intellect was massively increased by the Cosmic Rays, as a sort of Secondary Mutation.


----------



## atom (Mar 2, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> No powers still means Reed is ridiculously smart and still has the bloody Power Gem and Ultimate Nullifier in his grasp.


It also means that Goku is much faster then he is and simply takes those things and proceeds to anally rape every member of the FF.


----------



## HumanWine (Mar 2, 2008)

apparently, ppl believe that speed/rape/planetfucking/OMG/PWN/wtf? power < brains


----------



## Darklyre (Mar 2, 2008)

Sonic said:


> It also means that Goku is much faster then he is and simply takes those things and proceeds to anally rape every member of the FF.



How, exactly, is Goku going to take the Power Gem away from Reed? The Power Gem lets Reed duplicate ANY physical superpowers, including superspeed, and confers complete physical invulnerability. Reed could simply swallow the damn thing and Goku's fucked.


----------



## atom (Mar 2, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> How, exactly, is Goku going to take the Power Gem away from Reed? The Power Gem lets Reed duplicate ANY physical superpowers, including superspeed, and confers complete physical invulnerability. Reed could simply swallow the damn thing and Goku's fucked.


Ok, he tries to swallow it then chokes and dies. Then Goku kills the rest of em'.

Or perhaps Goku wishes that no items are allowed. Then kills all of them.


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## superbatman86 (Mar 2, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> How, exactly, is Goku going to take the Power Gem away from Reed? The Power Gem lets Reed duplicate ANY physical superpowers, including superspeed, and confers complete physical invulnerability. Reed could simply swallow the damn thing and Goku's fucked.


No it doesn't seeing as Thanos has dropped both Drax and the Champion when they had it.Besides the point that Reed has no way of ever getting ANY gem and Galactus ain't giving Reed the UN.Prep doesn't mean that he can get any object just things that he has on hand or is capable of getting.Besides Goku would wish for any number of things to win in an already one sided fight.


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## konflikti (Mar 3, 2008)

Power Gem is currently in the posession of Reed Richards. Obviously he doesn't drag it around but he does have it.


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## azngamer87 (Mar 3, 2008)

Goku takes this. 1. Goku can wish for immortality and them stomp them. 2. Goku can wish that they had no powers at all them fight them in h2h, which he will stomp them very badly. 3. Goku can wish all of his enemy be turned into food then he can finish them by eating them.


----------



## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Absence said:


> There is some argument that Reeds intellect was massively increased by the Cosmic Rays, as a sort of Secondary Mutation.



Reed was a child prodigy, even without the cosmic rays he is the smartest person on the planet.He had 2 PHDs and was a military scientist by age 22, and he designed the ship that got them into the cosmic storm by himself.



superbatman86 said:


> No it doesn't seeing as Thanos has dropped both Drax and the Champion when they had it.Besides the point that Reed has no way of ever getting ANY gem and Galactus ain't giving Reed the UN.Prep doesn't mean that he can get any object just things that he has on hand or is capable of getting.Besides Goku would wish for any number of things to win in an already one sided fight.



Thanos, the guy who went toe-to-toe with Odin and is generally regarded as having the most sophisticated tech and greatest mind of pretty much anyone. Getting beat down by Thanos is kind of hard to avoid,especially if he has prep.Reed has the power gem in his possession and also the UN. It has even been stolen and retrieved.He is capable of getting both, and its not out of character, but for Goku to do something like wish for immortality is. Not to mention it wouldn't matter since the UN would counter that.



azngamer87 said:


> Goku takes this. 1. Goku can wish for immortality and them stomp them. 2. Goku can wish that they had no powers at all them fight them in h2h, which he will stomp them very badly. 3. Goku can wish all of his enemy be turned into food then he can finish them by eating them.



UN nullifies the immortality, Reed still has prep and its debatable the dragon could even do that, and the dragon has never shown the ability of transmutation of that degree. The dragon has limits, he couldn't affect the androids for a reason.


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

Just wondering here, but couldn't Goku wish for Sue to ally with him or something like that?
Or wish that the FF aren't allowed to use item?
Then, he could just go and ask Bulma for some help with his prep, and her huge corporation and there you go...

Or, he uses the Earth-dragonballs to wish for no items allowed and then have Bulma use one of her ships to take him to Namek and use those dragonballs.

Those give 3 wishes, right?
Then its simple.
Wish for Reed to become stupid.
Wish for Sue to be unable to use her power as soon as the battle starts.
Wish for the human torch to be unable to use his power as soon as the battle starts.

There we go.
Problem solved.
Now, he gets back to his own world and prepares for the fight by getting some senzu beans or whatever with him to go through the fight if need be.
When the fight start, he will simply fly up and spam ki blasts and eat some senzu beans when needed.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Just wondering here, but couldn't Goku wish for Sue to ally with him or something like that?
> Or wish that the FF aren't allowed to use item?
> Then, he could just go and ask Bulma for some help with his prep, and her huge corporation and there you go...
> 
> ...



Because Goku really preps for a fight in this way,or would think to wish for those things which the Dragon has never been shown to do like have an effect on people like that.Goku wouldn't be able to use the Namekian dragon anyway, he doesn't speak Namek. If he is allowed to have a Namek do his bidding then Reed goes and gets Blackbolt to whisper at Goku. Reed is far beyond Bulma anyway. By the way if the Dragon was able to take away powers then why haven't the Z-senshi asked it to do that before, would save them a lot of trouble don't you think?


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

If he is allowed to prep as he should be doing at the start of each huge fight instead of just training, the manga would basically consists of the protagonists being immortal and unable to be hurt by either physical or ki attacks 

The reason that doesn't happen is the same as why the villains don't kill the heroes when they have the ability to (well, Azula is an obvious exception, I guess).
PIS.

If Goku really wanted to use prep in a smart way, that is what he should do.

But he never does because if he did, there would be no fight to speak of, since the enemy could never hurt him, ever.

Akira was smart enough to avoid that.

Because if this was a honest fight, I can promise you that Goku would have thought of it, since he really isn't stupid when it comes to fighting.

Also, couldn't Goku use shunkan ido and get to Namek at once?
That way, Reed would already be stupid as soon as the prep time is starting, so he really wouldn't think of that.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> If he is allowed to prep as he should be doing at the start of each huge fight instead of just training, the manga would basically consists of the protagonists being immortal and unable to be hurt by either physical or ki attacks
> 
> The reason that doesn't happen is the same as why the villains don't kill the heroes when they have the ability to (well, Azula is an obvious exception, I guess).
> PIS.
> ...



Its not PIS, its just his nature. Goku would never do anything like that it would be against his nature to do the things people are suggesting. 

Its more of a case by case thing considering that their are villains like Hisoka who could kill the heroes but chooses not to because they would provide fun later on.

Goku wouldn't use prep that way though so I don't get why people keep saying it.

Its not because AT was smart enough it was because he decided to make his character fit into the Shounen archetype of honorable hero. And I doubt Goku has the ability to wish for such a thing.

Again if Goku used the Namek dragonballs he'd have to use outside help from the Namek because he doesn't speak Namekian. It's debatable that the dragon can even bestow someone with the ability to not die or make someone stupid, Frieza was after eternal life so he could not die of old age. For all we know the dragon couldn't make Pilaf ruler or the world either. The dragon's power itself is relatively weak which is why he couldn't turn 17 and 18 into humans.


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Its not PIS, its just his nature. Goku would never do anything like that it would be against his nature to do the things people are suggesting.
> 
> Its more of a case by case thing considering that their are villains like Hisoka who could kill the heroes but chooses not to because they would provide fun later on.
> 
> ...



In this fight, unless otherwise stated in the first post, Goku is bloodlusted.
So he will do everything he can to win.
Which means he WON'T seek to have a fun fight or anything like that.

That is still a fault with his character, which will most likely lead to him dying, sooner or later (if the mangaka wasn't so very slow). 

He would if he wanted to win by any means necessary, which he will in this fight.

That is still a smart move from AT as a storyteller, since that will keep his characters from becoming invincible.
And why would he lack such an ability when he is bloodlusted?

And if Reed tries some of the crazier prep ideas here, he would also get outside help.
After all, I believe it was you who came with the example of getting help from another hero.
So you shouldn't come here and talk about outside help, when you brought up such an idea.
Not to mention that prep includes everything he could possible gain in such an amount of time, so why wouldn't he use the namekian dragonballs?
The namekians owe him one, after all, and they won't directly take part in the battle so don't try and say that they are interfering, since what I'm talking about is just prep.


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## Darklyre (Mar 3, 2008)

You know, Reed could just jump in one of his time/dimensional travel machines and jump back to when Goku was a baby and snuff him out that way. I mean, if you're going to make Goku bloodlusted, why not Reed?


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

And the dragonballs wouldn't affect them then?
I mean, if they can affect beings in the land of the dead, which should count as another dimension entirely, why not a dimension that Reed decides to go into?

And for the time travel one, are people allowed to kill others during prep when there isn't even a match in the first place?

Isn't prep just the preparation for a battle, where the sides can't hurt each other before the very battle starts?


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> In this fight, unless otherwise stated in the first post, Goku is bloodlusted.
> So he will do everything he can to win.
> Which means he WON'T seek to have a fun fight or anything like that.
> 
> ...



Thats an understandable point but again you can't prove the dragon can do the things you want. The dragon couldn't make the androids human so why should he be able to make the FF normal. And if it could Reed still has the gem and UN which would be enough to take out Goku.

Its not as pronounced a problem though, its not as much PIS as you initially made it out to be.

And again even if he could can you prove the dragon can do it?

Not really, plenty of manga have succeeded without following the shounen archetype. Look at Bastard!!! And do you think Goku has the intelligence to wish for any of the things people are asking about, he isn't going to just wish that the FF lose their power or become imbeciles. Again its debatable the dragon could do it.

No you were the first to think about outside help without even realizing it. My idea for Blackbolt to come into this stemmed from your use of the Namekian dragonballs which Goku would need a Namekian to use since he doesn't speak the language.And by helping him its interfering, if my friend gives me the answer to the test thats interfering and cheating.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> And the dragonballs wouldn't affect them then?
> I mean, if they can affect beings in the land of the dead, which should count as another dimension entirely, why not a dimension that Reed decides to go into?
> 
> And for the time travel one, are people allowed to kill others during prep when there isn't even a match in the first place?
> ...



Because that dimension is still tangent to DBverse, thats not the case with a dimension Reed goes into.

Yes,or he could just go back at the start of the fight.


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## Hamaru (Mar 3, 2008)

Force feild in Goku's brain = F4 win.


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Thats an understandable point but again you can't prove the dragon can do the things you want. The dragon couldn't make the androids human so why should he be able to make the FF normal. And if it could Reed still has the gem and UN which would be enough to take out Goku.
> 
> Its not as pronounced a problem though, its not as much PIS as you initially made it out to be.
> 
> ...



Fine, lets make it a change that lasts only a short while then.
Say, for this fight?
Because changing the androids to humans (which was wished to the Earth Dragonballs, which was said to be unable to affect things like the namekian one) would be permanent, which isn't what would happen here.

Again, why should prep be allowed to kill the enemy before the fight has even started?
The dragonballs would just make the FF weaker when compared to Goku, not kill them or something like that.

Letting people live that just to fight them when they are stronger and thus might actually kill you isn't a fault?

If the dragonballs could bring back the god of earth, or millions of humans at once, what is stopping them from taking away the power of the FF temporarily or removing the items of FF?

When you get prep, then you should get everything available to you that you can reasonably get.
So, Bulma should be able to help them.
So you go ahead and get a guy that won't be allowed to hurt Goku until the fight starts, at which point it will be an interference.
I will just get the DB genius to tell Goku about this plan, since she is smarter than me and I thought this up.
In fact, I'm reasonably sure she can think of a better plan with everything she can get for Goku in that time, since her tech seems to allow her to create ships that move FTL and even travel through time when need be, thanks to that time room where she could stay and work.

When I said interfering, I was talking about fighting for their side.
But you can of course use the characters that FF4 would know, when they have been put under the effect of the wishes and all that, if you really have to, as long as they can be expected to get the help they need (so no Galactus using the Power Cosmic to get them whatever they want or Death giving up Thanos so he can help them with prep or things like that )



SoulTaker540 said:


> Because that dimension is still tangent to DBverse, thats not the case with a dimension Reed goes into.
> 
> Yes,or he could just go back at the start of the fight.



Wrong.
F4 takes place in the Marvel Omniverse, which is said to include every work of fiction.
That means that said universe Goku is in is, in some way or another, connected to any universe Reed might go to, by the canon of Marvel.

Then, mind telling me what use that would be?


On another, completely unrelated note, I really like multi-quote.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Fine, lets make it a change that lasts only a short while then.
> Say, for this fight?
> Because changing the androids to humans (which was wished to the Earth Dragonballs, which was said to be unable to affect things like the namekian one) would be permanent, which isn't what would happen here.
> 
> ...



This is when the Earth dragonballs were put on some form of level footing with the Namekian dragonballs.It was beyond the dragon's power to change the androids so why isn't it the same with the FF, and the dragon couldn't destroy the saiyans either. So again the dragon had never been shown to negatively affect anyone.

But as soon as the fight starts he can just go jump into his nifty time machine and kill him it doesn't really matter. Goku would be taking away their powers which is just as cheap as them going back in time but thats the kind of fight it apparently is.

I don't see how sparing someone is a character fault, if anything it makes the character much more interesting.Its why Hisoka is an interesting character, its what made Toguro interesting as well.

The fact that it couldn't stop the saiyans or change the androids show that can't really negatively affect people. It hasn't exactly done much beside positive things for people.

Bulma wouldn't survive in the spirit and time room, Goku as a kid couldn't stay in there for the whole time. Bulma is not as smart as Reed,who can do everything she can and more.

If thats the case then they ask Franklin to wish Goku out of existence.They also ask Franklin to give them back their powers and kill the dragon on top of that.

That only applies to the Marvel Omniverse, there is no relation between the MU and DBU at all. The MU has never been stated to include all works of fiction either.

If Reed goes back at the start of the fight he can kill baby Goku when he landed on Earth.

Multi-quote is actually really helpful, as is now being able to see who repped you. There was a guy from the old Superman v. Goku thread who negged me and put down Phenomenal's name instead of their own.


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

Alright then.
Then how aobut Goku wishes for complete immunity to the following, since it can grant immortality.
Immunity to anything affecting him inside of his body.
Immunity to heat.
Immunity to blunt force.

Then, with the earth dragonballs, he simply wishes the items Reed could use away?


I personally blame the OP for this.
As soon as he allowed prep, and gave Goku access to the dragonballs, this fight was doomed, really.


It is a character fault, though, since it will most likely lead to his death since he intends to fight Gon and Killua later on, when they are strong enough.
That might very well kill him.
That is what I define as a character fault.
Something that might cause the character to die.
But I agree it makes them more interesting, though no less at fault for doing such a thing.

And I changed my idea to give the positive effects to Goku, now.

True enough, but he will have to do it without his equipment.
Not going to be of much use then, to be honest, when compared to the vast resources Bulma can put to use here.

Wishing Goku out of existance would end the fight before it even begun, though, which shouldn't be allowed to happen during prep.
Also, I have, as noted, changed the wishes Goku uses.

Here is an interesting site that I read about the Marvel Omniverse, which is said to include every work of fiction.
♥
I could also post a thread in the Meta Battledome and ask the real experts about that, if you don't want to take the words of the people in this thread for it?

And, that wouldn't kill Goku before he would be in his official battle between them?


Oh, another point.
If the dragonballs can remove the degeneration of the cells and give someone immortality, doesn't that mean that they can also do the opposite?
And everything less than that?
Shouldn't that mean they can quicken the aging of the enemy, if needed, as in affecting the enemy on a cellular level?
And do everything that is on a smaller scale as well?

I mean, the reason they didn't think of doing that to the Saiyans was because the dragonballs were of the weaker version then, which isn't the ones Goku will be using.
And as for the androids, they couldn't do that since it wouldn't be of any use, mostly because androids aren't usually made by materials that owuld work the same as biological matter...


Also, nice to see the effort by the one who is dealing with this forum is being appreciated by others as well


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## Power16 (Mar 3, 2008)

This thread is all out of whack. Isn't prep the preparation before the battle, are you even allowed to affect the opponent until the 2 days are up. 

I'm assuming both sides know what their up against as in Goku knows Reed uses techs and the other FF4 powers and Reed knows about the Dragonball since this seem to be general way of thinking i see. Then if Reed does get his hand on the UN and uses the Gem, Goku will have nothing to assure victory as the Dragon can't affect something more powerful then itself and the gem and UN are certainly above him.

In the Marvel Omniverse issue, they basically have their own because we know when there are threat or events that affects the whole Omniverse all other verses except Marvel are not effected. In a way Marvel isn't using the true meaning of the word but its Marvel(Omnipotent level and all).


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

Redux-shika boo said:


> What exactly do you suppose an in character Goku would wish for ? I assume Cis Goku would wish for what he believes the most useful in battle. Both of those seem applicable.
> 
> As for Reed, there is 0% chance he would gather any of the other gems, or even bring the ultimate nullifer to a random fight. CIS. meh.
> show me scans of reed bring the prepped items you claim to fights on a regular basis--- or cite a bunch.....



I'm not trying to insult you, but have you been reading Marvel comics lately?


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## Ax_ (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> I'm not trying to insult you, but have you been reading Marvel comics lately?



...Seriously?
Reed is doing that now?


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> ...Seriously?
> Reed is doing that now?



Reed could easily get any gem he wants besides the space gem, and I believe Uatu has the ultimate nullifier.  So yes, he could do what I said.


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## The Sentry (Mar 3, 2008)

You guys act like reed is the smartest shit ever. If he was on the skrull planet he would be average.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Alright then.
> Then how aobut Goku wishes for complete immunity to the following, since it can grant immortality.
> Immunity to anything affecting him inside of his body.
> Immunity to heat.
> ...



Why would he wish for those things if he doesn't know the F4, and if he becomes immortal the UN still kills him.

Those items are of so much greater power than the dragon its not funny. The UN itself would annihilate the dragon.

I can kind of agree with this, he didn't exactly lay down the ground rules well.

I can see your point to an extent, but I feel like fault is too strong of a word because it implies that the character is wrong for doing such a thing. Maybe quirk is a better word. I just started reading HxH I got through like 8 volumes in one day, I can't put it down.

And again I challenge wether the Dragon can do it or not, and why would Goku wish for those things if he doesn't know the FF.

If Reed has prep then why doesn't he have access to his equipment? Especially if Goku can go to someone with equipment.

He wouldn't wish Goku out of existence he'd kill him when he was too weak to defend himself.

If all works of fiction are covered in the MU omniverse do you realize how convoluted fiction becomes, and that it nullifies all "omnipotents" from other verses. Kami  Tenchi is not really omnipotent, and it wouldn't work if he was TOAA, why would TOAA lock himself into a boy? We get situations like that that makes it so convoluted beyond belief.

Its time travel thus its messy, but if he uses the machine after the fight starts then its legal. Then again technically he is killing Goku before the fight if he kills him as a baby, or is he because the fight still started. It's messy.

I can't dispute that they were weaker, but even then they probably still couldn't do that to the Saiyans. The Androids were not completely mechanical, atleast no 17 and 18 they were human at one point and the dragon couldn't restore that humanity. They'd have to be close to humans in some way considering 18 had a baby.

They need to let us be able to host our own images though.On free forum zone you can host your own images through your control panel and its really useful.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> You guys act like reed is the smartest shit ever. If he was on the skrull planet he would be average.



Reed is the smartest person on Earth, and on the Skrull planet Reed would be one of if not the top 10 smartest people for them. Reed builds things that allow him to traverse time and space, the guy is a fucking genius.


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## The Sentry (Mar 3, 2008)

Reeds Dad, High Evolutionary, Prof X, Beast, Forge, Dr Doom, Peter Parker, Tony Stark, all of these are smarter or as smart as Reed.
Reed cant even make his own serum to give superpowers, he couldnt even cure Spidey from having six arms.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Reeds Dad, High Evolutionary, Prof X, Beast, Forge, Dr Doom, Peter Parker, Tony Stark, all of these are smarter or as smart as Reed.
> Reed cant even make his own serum to give superpowers, he couldnt even cure Spidey from having six arms.



Forge is not smart, his power is what allows him to invent things, not intelligence. Peter had the potential to be on Reed's level but he is not. Tony Stark is no where near Reed's intelligence, but he is no slouch obviously just that if Reed is an A Tony is a B. High Evolutionary is better than Reed in one field and thats genetics, as far as Beast he asks Reed for help. There are times when Beast is shown to be smarter in genetics, but he views Reed as an equal who he can defer to. Reed's overall knowledge is better than anyone you listed, in certain fields they may be able outclass him but not all.Dr.Doom has admitted Reed is smarter, the only thing he knows more about is magic and thats because Reed can't understand it. And Reed has surpassed Nathaniel. No one on Earth is smarter than Reed. 

Reed makes time machines and traverses across dimension. He is considered the smartest person on the planet.


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> You guys act like reed is the smartest shit ever. If he was on the skrull planet he would be average.



ok


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

Reed has basically said Doom and him were even, and Doom has the advantage of magic.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> Reed has basically said Doom and him were even, and Doom has the advantage of magic.



Doom has outright said Reed was smarter, he said it grudgingly. And I'm pretty sure Reed has agreed as well.


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Doom has outright said Reed was smarter, he said it grudgingly. And I'm pretty sure Reed has agreed as well.



Well that's nice, too bad they are pretty even.



Btw, that is Reed.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

He's not exactly saying Victor is his equal just that Victor is brilliant in his own right and his armor tech is amazing. He has outsmarted Doom many times such as the game of chess.





There is also the time where he modified the time machine to traverse alternate futures when Victor could on get it to go backwards and fowards.


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> He's not exactly saying Victor is his equal just that Victor is brilliant in his own right and his armor tech is amazing. He has outsmarted Doom many times such as the game of chess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really want to compare feats?  Reed won in chess one time, Doom has outsmarted the f4 and more in actual real world strategy.  

Doom has stolen SS power, Beyonder, and Galactus...

Really I could argue Doom is smarter, but it is easier to say they are even.


And in the scan he is saying he always thought he was smarter than Doom, but now he realizes he isn't.


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## HumanWine (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> You really want to compare feats?  Reed won in chess one time, Doom has outsmarted the f4 and more in actual real world strategy.
> 
> Doom has stolen SS power, Beyonder, and Galactus...
> 
> ...


Doom has more practical brains


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

Pyrodogg said:


> Doom has more practical brains



Granted, but that still does not mean Reed is smarter.


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## HumanWine (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> Granted, but that still does not mean Reed is smarter.


I think Reed is a douche


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## Ork (Mar 3, 2008)

Pyrodogg said:


> I think Reed is a douche



Reed is a Douche.

And goku stomps this.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> You really want to compare feats?  Reed won in chess one time, Doom has outsmarted the f4 and more in actual real world strategy.
> 
> Doom has stolen SS power, Beyonder, and Galactus...
> 
> ...



The fact is that makes him cunning it doesn't make him the smartest. Reed Richards is the smartest person on Earth. If he applied himself to being more practical then he'd surpass what Victor has done, thing is the guy is a visionary.

Reed makes time machines, goes to alternate realities, disrupts the energy of a cosmic cube,discovered and built a prison in the negative zone, and the list goes on.

I can argue Reed is smarter and he is.

In the scan he is saying Doom is brilliant and its going to be a challenge to figure out how to bypass the armors defenses, not that Doom is smarter. Doom may be on his level but he is not as smart.


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## Frogs557 (Mar 3, 2008)

hell, reed with two whole days of prep can pwn ANYBODY


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## The Sentry (Mar 3, 2008)

^^^No he cant GTFO


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> ^^^No he cant GTFO



He could pwn Vulcan


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## The Sentry (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> He could pwn Vulcan



blasphemy!!!!! 

Reed with 3yrs prep takes over...wait for it...LATVERIA!!!! 
Vulcan with NO prep takes over the SHIAR GALACTIC EMPIRE


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## Frogs557 (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> ^^^No he cant GTFO



youre right, not really ANYONE.  someone like doom with a matching intellect would be more difficult.  But considering goku is no brain and pure brawn, not even dragon balls can help him out of this.


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## The Sentry (Mar 3, 2008)

Goku is a fighting genius. Goku's combat genius surpasses Reeds intellect 10 times over


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> blasphemy!!!!!
> 
> Reed with 3yrs prep takes over...wait for it...LATVERIA!!!!
> Vulcan with NO prep takes over the SHIAR GALACTIC EMPIRE



He would need 3 years because of how powerful Latveria is, and considering their ruler is also a genius and most likely one of the seven smartest people on the planet. 

Vulcan had like a month of prep, and he married Deathbird which is the only reason his rule is accepted.Otherwise Gladiator would destroy him.


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## Frogs557 (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> He would need 3 years because of how powerful Latveria is, and considering their ruler is also a genius and most likely one of the seven smartest people on the planet.
> 
> Vulcan had like a month of prep, and he married Deathbird which is the only reason his rule is accepted.Otherwise Gladiator would destroy him.



amen to that.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> Goku is a fighting genius. Goku's combat genius surpasses Reeds intellect 10 times over



Not really, I mean I can see why people call him a fighting genius because he picks up techniques fast and comes up with some innovative stuff, but he has never encountered anyone as smart as Reed. Reed with a month of prep could take Dr.Gero and Bulma with a year of prep, he is just that damn good.


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> The fact is that makes him cunning it doesn't make him the smartest. Reed Richards is the smartest person on Earth. If he applied himself to being more practical then he'd surpass what Victor has done, thing is the guy is a visionary.
> 
> Reed makes time machines, goes to alternate realities, disrupts the energy of a cosmic cube,discovered and built a prison in the negative zone, and the list goes on.
> 
> ...



Ok then, prove Reed is smarter, because so far your proof is flimsy at best.  Doom had a time machine before Reed even made one.  Doom's device stole the power cosmic.  

But you go right ahead, prove Reed is smarter.  I'll wait.


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> Ok then, prove Reed is smarter, because so far your proof is flimsy at best.  Doom had a time machine before Reed even made one.  Doom's device stole the power cosmic.
> 
> But you go right ahead, prove Reed is smarter.  I'll wait.



Reed made the time machine work far more efficiently than Doom did, being able to go to alternate futures. And Reed builds machines that disrupt cosmic cubes.I'd say he is a bit more impressive.


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## Dave (Mar 3, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Reed made the time machine work far more efficiently than Doom did, being able to go to alternate futures. And Reed builds machines that disrupt cosmic cubes.I'd say he is a bit more impressive.



Doom stole pre retcon Beyonder's power, SS power cosmic, Galactus power cosmic.  He built a time machine before Reed had one, he also has a time traveling device built into his armor.  He has mind control devices, device that can give people power, doombots, etc.  Then there's his armor itself.  Doom even learned magic by watching other people.  Going by feats Doom > Reed


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## SoulTaker (Mar 3, 2008)

Dave said:


> Doom stole pre retcon Beyonder's power, SS power cosmic, Galactus power cosmic.  He built a time machine before Reed had one, he also has a time traveling device built into his armor.  He has mind control devices, device that can give people power, doombots, etc.  Then there's his armor itself.  Doom even learned magic by watching other people.  Going by feats Doom > Reed



Because Reed would do any of the aforementioned things considering his temperament? Given what Reed did to his time machine its pretty safe to assume Reed would have been a bit more efficient when it came to stealing energy. Not to mention that Reed came up with the device that siphoned Doom's power cosmic. Reed discovered the Negative Zone, build a full scale prison on it, traversed dimensions, entered subspace, and many more things. There is also the fact that he is referred to the smartest person in the world by many of the greatest minds in the world. Reed>Victor


----------



## Radical Dreamer (Mar 3, 2008)

Goku instant transmissions to the other side of the planet before nuking it and instant transmissioning himself somewhere else...


----------



## Superrazien (Mar 3, 2008)

Goku wishes for the FF to all have down syndrome. Goku wins.


----------



## Dave (Mar 4, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Because Reed would do any of the aforementioned things considering his temperament? Given what Reed did to his time machine its pretty safe to assume Reed would have been a bit more efficient when it came to stealing energy. Not to mention that Reed came up with the device that siphoned Doom's power cosmic. Reed discovered the Negative Zone, build a full scale prison on it, traversed dimensions, entered subspace, and many more things. There is also the fact that he is referred to the smartest person in the world by many of the greatest minds in the world. Reed>Victor



You realize it is easier to improve pre-existing technology than it is to create it from nothing, right?

Reed discovered the negative zone on accident.  And actually Reed made the prison along with Pym and Tony...  

So what if Reed came up with tech to steal Doom's power cosmic, Doom already made the technology...

Doom has entered subspace and the Negative Zone as well.

Doom was made to mirror Reed, face it, they are pretty much even.  Also many times has it been said Doom could beat the F4 one on one, but they beat him because they are a team.

And let's not forgot that Reed can not understand magic, which takes skill and intellect to comprehend, yet Doom picks it up rapidly. 

I have yet to see you show any scans where it says Reed is the smartest person in the World.  However, I did show a scan where Reed said he thought he was smarter than Doom, but realizes it isn't so.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 4, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> He would need 3 years because of how powerful Latveria is, and considering their ruler is also a genius and most likely one of the seven smartest people on the planet.
> 
> Vulcan had like a month of prep, and he married Deathbird which is the only reason his rule is accepted.Otherwise Gladiator would destroy him.



So your saying Latveria>>>>Shiar Galactic Empire?


----------



## Lina Inverse (Mar 4, 2008)

Let's set things straight first.

The OP said both would have preptime. Now, with that in mind, DURING the preptime...does goku immediately wish for whatever he can wish?

Cause doesn't he technically have to WAIT for the preptime to end before wishing anything?

If that's the case though...how fast can goku make a wish anyway? Isn't it like: dragons come out->goku makes a wish->dragon grants->goku makes second wish->dragon grants->goku makes final wish->dragon grants?

Since Reed also has preptime, won't he immediately prevent goku from having time to wish? Sure Goku is faster than the FF4...but has he been shown of talking faster than the FF4(so he can make a wish BEFORE he can get interrupted by the FF4)?

Also, won't Reed come up with something that would be able to make sure that goku won't be able to make even a single wish, and at the same time immobilize him during his prep time?

Just a few things to consider.


----------



## mystictrunks (Mar 4, 2008)

Wait a second, shouldn't Goku be able to get 5 wishes,2 from the Earth dragon and 3 from the Namekian one?


----------



## Lina Inverse (Mar 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Wait a second, shouldn't Goku be able to get 5 wishes,2 from the Earth dragon and 3 from the Namekian one?


Yeah sure, but the fact still remains...shouldn't he still have to wait for the preptime to be over before he can even make a single wish?


----------



## mystictrunks (Mar 5, 2008)

He could make wishes that don't effect them or don't take place until the prep is over.

"I wish I was immortal"
"I wish I moved at multiples of C"
"I wish I spit could spit into the sky and extinguish the sun"
"I wish every thing Reed has ever made explodes in two days"

And so on.


----------



## Darklyre (Mar 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> He could make wishes that don't effect them or don't take place until the prep is over.
> 
> "I wish I was immortal"
> "I wish I moved at multiples of C"
> ...



Goku's not even smart enough to wish for faster growing senzu beans. What in hell makes you think he'd wish for any of the above?


----------



## mystictrunks (Mar 5, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> Goku's not even smart enough to wish for faster growing senzu beans. What in hell makes you think he'd wish for any of the above?



Bloodlust and lack of CIS/PIS.

Otherwise why would Reed try and get and use the U.N. like people have suggested?


----------



## konflikti (Mar 5, 2008)

Taking character induced stupidity away doesn't suddenly make character smart or intelligent. That just means Goku won't wish for big plate of food. I personally think this whole bloodlust + no CIS is total bullshit when a completely different character enters the fray.


----------



## Darklyre (Mar 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Bloodlust and lack of CIS/PIS.
> 
> Otherwise why would Reed try and get and use the U.N. like people have suggested?



Reed's laboratory has moon-busting disintegrator sentry guns. His idea of a vacation is casual time-traveling. He collects Infinity Gems because "well, someone else could and I might as well be first." He's pulled out the UN on both Galactus and Tyrant. The friend makes a robot clone of Thor for no other reason than to beat on his own friends.

Reed is by no means a nice guy with a sense of fair play. Give him prep-time and he WILL time travel, use that Power Gem, and generally fuck people over.


----------



## strongarm85 (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, 9 pages. Who would have thought?

Continue!


----------



## mystictrunks (Mar 5, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> Reed's laboratory has moon-busting disintegrator sentry guns. His idea of a vacation is casual time-traveling. He collects Infinity Gems because "well, someone else could and I might as well be first." He's pulled out the UN on both Galactus and Tyrant. The friend makes a robot clone of Thor for no other reason than to beat on his own friends.
> 
> Reed is by no means a nice guy with a sense of fair play. Give him prep-time and he WILL time travel, use that Power Gem, and generally fuck people over.



And all of this has what to do with getting the U.N.?


----------



## Dave (Mar 5, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> And all of this has what to do with getting the U.N.?



I don't think you read carefully enough, I brought up Reed using UN because of the fact people were trying to say Goku would wish for things ooc for him.


----------



## VVN Admin (Mar 9, 2008)

Goku speedblits victory.


----------



## Kamehameha Beats The OodamaR (Apr 20, 2008)

Like I said, I will quote my same words in any "Goku vs. <Whoever>" thread:

Goku is smart when it comes to fighting.

Goku has a battle power at the end of DBZ of 46 Billion, his Super Genki Dama has a power level of 22 TRILLION.

He Beats anyone, any place, any time.

He doesnt need to collect the dragonballs, but since you gave him that right, and didnt specify WHICH dragonballs... he summons Black Star Shenron and has him "cure" the fantastic four.


----------



## The World (Apr 20, 2008)

Kamehameha Beats The OodamaR said:


> Like I said, I will quote my same words in any "Goku vs. <Whoever>" thread:
> 
> Goku is smart when it comes to fighting.
> 
> ...



Go away you troll.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Do you even know what a Galaxy is, it includes stars. By the time Goku got through a quarter of the stars,planets, not to mention moons, the star dust would reform into planets. I'd even wager if his energy was infinite he still wouldn't be able to do it before everything reformed. He doesn't have the power to do it. You're being ridiculous if you think Goku has the power to bust a Galaxy, the guy can't even do a solar system.
> 
> Buu was going to bust planet to planet, thats not galaxy busting, moons and stars still need to be busted.
> 
> Its manga only because the anime isn't canon, its not the primary source material the manga is. Buu was made weaker so Goku could be the hero of the story, let me pose this to you so you can get it. Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu, whom Gohan destroyed, but he agreed with Vegeta that he would annihilate Kid Buu. Then their is also the basic arguement that if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu, and Goku beat him then why did he fuse with Vegeta to beat Super Buu 3 who should be weaker than Kid Buu using your logic.



I don't know shit about Fantastic Four so I'll just address this whole galaxy buster issue.

1. Super Perfect Cell stated that he could destroy a Solar System.
2. Base Goku in GT comes along and stomps on Super Perfect Cell.
3. Base Goku then gets godmodded beyond belief and becomes 4 transformations stronger. The first SSJ transformation is AT LEAST 50x judging by the fight against Frieza and Kaioken multipliers. The other transformations are likely lower than 50x but still huge. For example: 

Base Goku: 1
SSJ1: 50
SSJ2: 500
SSJ3: 1,500
SSJ4: 3,000

^Rather conservative multipliers. Most DBZ fans tend to put them higher than those.
4. After turning SSJ4, Goku then becoms even further god-modded and has his limits surpassed. We can assume it's AT LEAST 2x.

So in conclusion, Goku in his prime is at least 6,000 times stronger than a solar system buster.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Nov 29, 2008)

If Goku is a galaxy buster, I'm Mary Queen of Scots.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

LOL@ taking Cell's word seriously (when he's a known liar and the blast only created a small crater), plus assuming power levels are logical and assuming they have the same multiplier for all transformations, and at assuming GT is canon.

No one in canon DBZ has ever destroyed more than a planet, and there's NO evidence they can.


----------



## C-Moon (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one's used power levels since Trunks was said to have a power level of 5. GT isn't considered canon, btw.


----------



## C. Hook (Nov 29, 2008)

Kamehameha Beats The OodamaR said:


> Like I said, I will quote my same words in any "Goku vs. <Whoever>" thread:
> 
> Goku is smart when it comes to fighting.
> 
> ...



...

Galactus
Toppa Tengen Gurren Lagann
The Dalek Empire
Dark Shneider
Enrico Pucci
The Martians
Santa Claus
Superman (LOLOLOL)
The Anti-Monitor
Mephisto
Onslaught
The Anti Spiral
God
Silver Surfer

Want some candy with that RAPE?


----------



## C-Moon (Nov 29, 2008)

Unicron(Energon version vaporized planets)
Starscream(after stealing the Planet Keys)
Primus(Beat the above Decepticon casually)
Satan(ate planets in Bastard!!)
Uriel(regular and fallen)
Superman()


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Please don't respond to the trolls from months ago


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> I don't know shit about Fantastic Four so I'll just address this whole galaxy buster issue.
> 
> So in conclusion, Goku in his prime is at least 6,000 times stronger than a solar system buster.


6,000 Solar Systems, is still a fraction of a galaxy. I'd take the time to address more of the argument, if it needed more than what other people have already addressed.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> LOL@ taking Cell's word seriously (when he's a known liar and the blast only created a small crater), plus assuming power levels are logical and assuming they have the same multiplier for all transformations, and at assuming GT is canon.
> 
> No one in canon DBZ has ever destroyed more than a planet, and there's NO evidence they can.



If we ignore stated facts than what else do we have to go on? You might as well say that low-tier DB characters can solo the Saint Seiya verse since Gemini Knight can't even create a small crater with his so-called "Galaxian Buster".

Master Roshi can destroy the Moon with a power level of 139. The last power level given in the Daizenshuu was 150,000,000 for SSJ Goku. You can argue that the Daizenshuu is non-canon and not completely reliable but it's still relatively logical if you look at the evidence. 

As for strength feats in DB/Z/GT, they are completely inconsistent. Toriyama was rather forgetfull. 

And as for canon/non-canon, this is the place where ANIME characters can fight am I right? DBGT is an anime.

@Vynjira: I never said he could destroy a Galaxy. I'm just saying he's quite a bit stronger than a solar system buster.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> Master Roshi can destroy the Moon with a power level of 139. The last power level given in the Daizenshuu was 150,000,000 for SSJ Goku. You can argue that the Daizenshuu is non-canon and not completely reliable but it's still relatively logical if you look at the evidence.


15 million not 150*. Which even by linear standards(_even tho energy requirements are non-linear bordering exponential)_ would be 180,000(_rounded up_) Earth sized planets destroyed. Which is still under "Star" busting status.





> @Vynjira: I never said he could destroy a Galaxy. I'm just saying he's quite a bit stronger than a solar system buster.


If we take Cell for his word and literally. As even if he wasn't lying he may not mean with one blast.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> 15 million not 150*. Which even by linear standards(_even tho energy requirements are non-linear bordering exponential)_ would be 180,000(_rounded up_) Earth sized planets destroyed. Which is still under "Star" busting status.If we take Cell for his word and literally. As even if he wasn't lying he may not mean with one blast.



No. It was 150,000,000 in the original japanese Daizenshuu. The 15,000,000 was a mistranslation.

I don't understand why Cell being a Solar System buster is so inconceivable. DBZ characters are fucking tank and if a weak old man in DB can bust a Moon than why can't someone who's at least a million times stronger bust a solar system?


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> No. It was 150,000,000 in the original japanese Daizenshuu. The 15,000,000 was a mistranslation.
> 
> I don't understand why Cell being a Solar System buster is so inconceivable. DBZ characters are fucking tank and if a weak old man in DB can bust a Moon than why can't someone who's at least a million times stronger bust a solar system?


Because even if your claim was true, the Sun is over 7 million times bigger than the Moon. Its also not made of the same materials by comparison its a "ball of energy". Further the energy requirements are non-linear. Its not, object is 10 times moon's size thus you need 10 times the power level.

Even Brolly took a minimum of 36 million years to destroy the Southern Galaxy.. if we take what we saw literally.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> If we ignore stated facts than what else do we have to go on? You might as well say that low-tier DB characters can solo the Saint Seiya verse since Gemini Knight can't even create a small crater with his so-called "Galaxian Buster".



Actual facts, as opposed to fallible character dialogue from a known liar.

BTW, Id has a scan of Saga's Galaxian Explosion destroying multiple planets.



> Master Roshi can destroy the Moon with a power level of 139. The last power level given in the Daizenshuu was 150,000,000 for SSJ Goku. You can argue that the Daizenshuu is non-canon and not completely reliable but it's still relatively logical if you look at the evidence.



No, because power levels are meaningless for anything other than determining which DBZ character is stronger than which other DBZ character - they are not a linear or logical scale. Else the farmer with a PL of 5 would have more power than a nuclear arsenal.



> As for strength feats in DB/Z/GT, they are completely inconsistent. Toriyama was rather forgetfull.



Actually, if you take into account lifting strength as being separate from strength augmented by flight momentum, the manga strength levels are somewhat logical.

I'm not making any excuses for GT, it sucked and was full of plot holes (and is non - canon)



> And as for canon/non-canon, this is the place where ANIME characters can fight am I right? DBGT is an anime.



Yet it is non - canon to the character, so unless it was specified in the OP, it's not used - the canon is used above all else.



> @Vynjira: I never said he could destroy a Galaxy. I'm just saying he's quite a bit stronger than a solar system buster.



No one in DBZ has ever destroyed a star, a solar system, or anything more than a planet.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> No. It was 150,000,000 in the original japanese Daizenshuu. The 15,000,000 was a mistranslation.
> 
> I don't understand why Cell being a Solar System buster is so inconceivable. DBZ characters are fucking tank and if a weak old man in DB can bust a Moon than why can't someone who's at least a million times stronger bust a solar system?



You don't understand because you are scientifically illiterate.

Consider this: The moon's GBE (Gravitational Binding Energy - energy required to destroy it) is around 1e29 joules, the earth's is around 2000 times that, the sun's is almost a billion times that of the earth, and due to the inverse - square law, the power required to destroy the entire solar system would be trillions of trillions of trillions of times that.

The fact remains that NO ONE in DBZ has EVER demonstrated that much power.

All we have is a boast from a known liar who tends to overrate himself (he even claimed it was impossible for him to die *as he was dying*)

We don't allow hyperboles as valid evidence here. Sorry, that's just the way it works.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Even Brolly took a minimum of 36 million years to destroy the Southern Galaxy.. if we take what we saw literally.



lolwut? Broly is not 36 million years old...


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

If we took the argument as 100% truth its still not enough to meet the claim. Once we start looking into the legitimacy of the argument itself, the argument falls apart.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> You don't understand because you are scientifically illiterate.
> 
> Consider this: The moon's GBE (Gravitational Binding Energy - energy required to destroy it) is around 1e29 joules, the earth's is around 2000 times that, the sun's is almost a billion times that of the earth, and due to the inverse - square law, the power required to destroy the entire solar system would be trillions of trillions of trillions of times that.
> 
> ...



Buu and Gotenks both ripped open a dimension. Discuss.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Brolly should not even be mentioned, because he is not canon....

If we used hyperboles here, we would have to accept that Amaterasu burns through anything (despite the fact that it is shown not to), that Susanoo would block any attack...

we need more solid evidence.

Trust me, this Cell solar system thing has been gone over here dozens of times in the past, and it's all but unanimous that he was full of shit.

Nothing short of a brand new manga special drawn by Toriyama confirming he was telling the truth is going to change that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> Buu and Gotenks both ripped open a dimension. Discuss.



Unquantifiable. The characters from Sliders do that with a remote control device.

Hell, Bleach characters go between dimensions all the time.

Opening a portal between dimensions is useless as a power feat - it's a transport feat.


----------



## Vault (Nov 29, 2008)

lol why bother with a necro


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> lolwut? Broly is not 36 million years old...


Yet, the Southern Galaxy somehow managed to rotate over roughly 60 degrees, from when he started destroying it to when he finished.. a process which takes upwards of 36million years to a full rotation consisting of 225 million years. We know that is not true but we also know a Galaxy would not visibly rotate in 7 seconds.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Unquantifiable. The characters from Sliders do that with a remote control device.
> 
> Hell, Bleach characters go between dimensions all the time.
> 
> Opening a portal between dimensions is useless as a power feat - it's a transport feat.



He opened it with sheer power alone. Not magic or some sort of mechanical device. Just by screaming at the air.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Vynjira said:


> Yet, the Southern Galaxy somehow managed to rotate over roughly 60 degrees, from when he started destroying it to when he finished.. a process which takes upwards of 36million years to a full rotation consisting of 225 million years. We know that is not true but we also know a Galaxy would not visibly rotate in 7 seconds.



Oh god. *facepalm*

I don't know what to say except that Toei doesn't really consider physics or universal laws when making a movie based on an anime.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> He opened it with sheer power alone. Not magic or some sort of mechanical device. Just by screaming at the air.



That's not sheer power, since screaming at the air won't do shit other than make noise and damage things (if it has a lot of power).

It was some kind of vibrational effect - weird and unquantifiable. It opened a portal (where there had already been a portal for who - knows - how - long). Completely unquantifiable and useless as a measurement of power.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> Oh god. *facepalm*
> 
> I don't know what to say except that Toei doesn't really consider physics or universal laws when making a movie based on an anime.



Exactly. The Brolly movie had so many plot holes and ridiculous inconsistencies it's kind of pointless to try and debate it. It's a fun movie, but useful mostly for entertainment.

Not to mention it's completely irrelevant to this thread, anyway.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> He opened it with sheer power alone. Not magic or some sort of mechanical device. Just by screaming at the air.


Yea, in a pocket dimension. Which has no value as screaming could indicate a frequency punch thru the dimension which is unstable and connected to theirs. We have no idea if the inherent environment played a part as well. Thus unquantifiable.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

This is like Night of the Living Debunked Arguments. Honestly, I've gone over this shit so many times in the past, it's like I don't even have to think to rebut this crap. I bet I could actually predict this guy's next arguments as well as my rebuttals to them.

Geez.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> That's not sheer power, since screaming at the air won't do shit other than make noise and damage things (if it has a lot of power).
> 
> It was some kind of vibrational effect - weird and unquantifiable. It opened a portal (where there had already been a portal for who - knows - how - long). Completely unquantifiable and useless as a measurement of power.



I don't believe I brought up Broly so don't taze me bro.

Screaming in DBZ is capable of producing power. We see characters being pushed back from a Kiai. EVERYTHING in DBZ is based on power.

SSJ3 Gotenks was able to rip open the dimension but SSJ Gotenks was not. Therefore it is a feat that is determined by power, not by vibrations or something like that. Stop overcomplicating DBZ. It's a simple anime. If Gotenks can open a portal in a dimension than he's fucking strong.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> I don't believe I brought up Broly so don't taze me bro.
> 
> Screaming in DBZ is capable of producing power. We see characters being pushed back from a Kiai. EVERYTHING in DBZ is based on power.



Which is why they don't have any weird techniques with strange effects, right? (Multi - form, Taiyoken, Genki Dama, Mafuba, etc.)

DBZ characters have a lot of weird powers that do many different things.



> SSJ3 Gotenks was able to rip open the dimension but SSJ Gotenks was not. Therefore it is a feat that is determined by power, not by vibrations or something like that. Stop overcomplicating DBZ. It's a simple anime. If Gotenks can open a portal in a dimension than he's fucking strong.



How strong? You can't say. It's unquantifiable. Jacobus Rakan from Negima destroyed an infinite dimension just by exerting a bit of magic pressure, but on average Negima is way weaker than DBZ and he has no feats greater than destroying a mountain.

Honestly, it's meaningless.

The fact that he had to powerup to use it simply means the technique can only be performed at that level. If they just wanted to blast out using "pure power", why didn't they try using ki blasts or punching? After all, those are the primary means they use to try to damage things via power.


----------



## Tyrant (Nov 29, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Which is why they don't have any weird techniques with strange effects, right? (Multi - form, Taiyoken, Genki Dama, Mafuba, etc.)
> 
> DBZ characters have a lot of weird powers that do many different things.
> 
> ...



All of the techniques you mentioned (except for Solar Flare) are useless if you don't have the power to back it up. In DBZ the greater power level wins. Everytime.

And you mentioned Negima using magic pressure. Again, Gotenks didn't use magic. Just sheer power. I'm not saying it's quantifiable because we don't know how exactly how strong someone has to be to rip open a dimension but we can assume you have to be pretty fucking strong to do that. Unless of course you're suggesting that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than bleach characters...


----------



## Utopia Realm (Nov 29, 2008)

Couldn't Goku wish for all the omnipotents in Marvel/DC to fight for him instead. Then Goku could win, couldn't he?


----------



## Power16 (Nov 29, 2008)

Sure because the Dragon is so Omnipotent that he can make other omnipotent do stuff for Goku.


----------



## Jinibea (Nov 29, 2008)

The dragon can not do things against people who are stronger then him. Marvel/DC omniptents will not do shit for goku.


----------



## Banhammer (Nov 29, 2008)

Jhonny goes all the way flamewise and burns up all the air in the atmosphere while sue is giving goku an aneurisma (he was going to die from a heart condition)
Fantastic Rape.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> I'm not saying it's quantifiable because we don't know how exactly how strong someone has to be to rip open a dimension


Then you submit that it doesn't tell us what they can and can't destroy, so stating the feat has no value.


----------



## Banhammer (Nov 29, 2008)

it has value. If Buu was to be trapped in a dimension and was left stranded somewhere where a rift between dimension was allready weak and predisposed to open, he would be able to do it by means of screaming.


----------



## Vynjira (Nov 29, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> it has value. If Buu was to be trapped in a dimension and was left stranded somewhere where a rift between dimension was allready weak and predisposed to open, he would be able to do it by means of screaming.


..and you know this how? He never screamed and opened a rift to the after-life. As far as we know it was only possible in the Room of Spirit and Time.

It has no value unless someone says Buu is stuck in RoSaT and you counter by saying he can break out.


----------



## Id (Nov 30, 2008)

Yeah, so both have prep time. 

Let me see, Goku can go off and collect the Dragon Balls. While Reed holds one Infinity Gem, knows where to track down the last remaining gems (since he gave them away to specific characters), and has accesses to numerous pis broken technology and a young boy with godly powers that make the entire DBZ verse look like spastic dogs. 

Let me spell it out. Don’t give Reed fucking prep time.


----------



## Herekic (Nov 30, 2008)

goku wishes for reed to be stupid.

he blitzes them all to hell. he wins.


----------



## Darklyre (Nov 30, 2008)

Herekic said:


> goku wishes for reed to be stupid.
> 
> he blitzes them all to hell. he wins.



Preparations don't activate until after prep-time is finished, at which time Reed will already have had the Infinity Gauntlet, making him immune to the power of the Dragonballs.

Try again.


----------



## Herekic (Nov 30, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> Preparations don't activate until after prep-time is finished, at which time Reed will already have had the Infinity Gauntlet, making him immune to the power of the Dragonballs.
> 
> Try again.




k.


goku instant transmissions to reed, pulls the gauntlet off, then proceeds to just use a giant burst of energy to vaporize the FF and the country they're in.


and before you say goku can't do that, remember back to thanos, and how it is perfectly possible to remove the gauntlet from somebody if you can do so before they can react in time to stop you. goku can do exactly this to reed. and also remember reed is not thanos, and does not have his physical abilites and reaction times(he can keep up with the likes of heralds normally, reed, not so much)


instant transmission+gigantic reaction and mvoement speed gaps+ki blast=dead FF.



this is of course assuming reed uses the gauntlet, and not some other plan.


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## Federer (Nov 30, 2008)

The day that FF and Goku know they are going to fight each other. Goku has two days to gather the Dragonballs and Reed has prep-time.

Goku gathers the Dragonballs within a couple of hours thanx to his Dragonradar and summons the dragon.

The dragon pops out, Goku's wish:

_"Oh mighty eternal dragon, I want to request my wish"

"Sure, make your wish".

"I want the Fantastic Four dead, give them an heartattack". 

"Your wish is granted"._

Since Reed can't use his brains, while he's dead, he and his team loses.


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## Banhammer (Nov 30, 2008)

to neg or not to neg.


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## Federer (Nov 30, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> to neg or not to neg.



Goku summons the Eternal dragon, making his wish:

_Oh mighty Shenron, make the people on NF believe that I can win against Reeds' superbrains. _ 

If Reed has the infinity gauntlet or something else on that level, he and his team going to win. But using such thing isn't in-character for Reed, and making a wish isn't Goku's thing either.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 30, 2008)

Tyrant said:


> All of the techniques you mentioned (except for Solar Flare) are useless if you don't have the power to back it up. In DBZ the greater power level wins. Everytime.



*cough*superbuuvsvegeto*cough*trunksvsperfectcell*cough*

Even putting aside the fact that you are wrong, this whole thing is a red herring since the point is that they have a bunch of techniques that do weird things not based on power at all. Take Guldo's timestop for example. He was a weakling and the only reason he got onto the Ginyu force was because of that special power.

Opening a portal to another dimension clearly falls under this category.



> And you mentioned Negima using magic pressure. Again, Gotenks didn't use magic. Just sheer power.



In Negima, magic *is* sheer power. They even have a power level - like system, but based on how much magic power you have.



> I'm not saying it's quantifiable because we don't know how exactly how strong someone has to be to rip open a dimension but we can assume you have to be pretty fucking strong to do that.



So therefore, you have no argument



> Unless of course you're suggesting that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than bleach characters...



Of course not - but I believe he's stronger than them based on his quantifiable feats, and based on powerscaling with other characters who have quantifiable feats.

I merely mentioned Bleach characters as an example of characters that can cross dimensions without being that strong.



Banhammer said:


> Jhonny goes all the way flamewise and burns up all the air in the atmosphere while sue is giving goku an aneurisma (he was going to die from a heart condition)
> Fantastic Rape.



Honestly, without prep I only see the FF taking it a few times out of 10, if Sue can get in a lucky shot before they get speedblitzed.



Banhammer said:


> it has value. If Buu was to be trapped in a dimension and was left stranded somewhere where a rift between dimension was allready weak and predisposed to open, he would be able to do it by means of screaming.



Sure, but the point is it's not a quantifiable feat of power, like, say, destroying a planet is.



Herekic said:


> kgoku instant transmissions to reed, pulls the gauntlet off, then proceeds to just use a giant burst of energy to vaporize the FF and the country they're in.
> 
> 
> and before you say goku can't do that, remember back to thanos, and how it is perfectly possible to remove the gauntlet from somebody if you can do so before they can react in time to stop you. goku can do exactly this to reed. and also remember reed is not thanos, and does not have his physical abilites and reaction times(he can keep up with the likes of heralds normally, reed, not so much)



Fail. The only reason Thanos was susceptible to that (even though it didn't work) was because he had removed his enhanced sensory powers and most of the abilities of the Infinity Gems in order to impress Mistress Death. Afterwards he even said he had been a fool to do that and "willed himself back to full power" to fight the cosmic beings.


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2008)

So does it go without saying that Son Gokuh can with if there is no prep?


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## Banhammer (Nov 30, 2008)

not really.
Goku dosen't attack of the bat with ftl planet busting mooves.
Sue has redirected an atomic bomb and tanked attacks from Thor or even Galactus, and she has the reflexes to shield herself and or her team from any first strike goku sends.
From then on, it's invisible Aneurisma, or Atmosphere burnout FTW.


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2008)

That's great, except city and mountain busting attacks were nothing since the 23rd Budokai.


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## Banhammer (Nov 30, 2008)

hmm.. I will remove myself from debate untill I do further research. Don't remember much DBZ as I wich I did.


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2008)

That was in Part I, and the manga is just called Dragon Ball. The 23rd Budokai was five years before Part II when Raditz and the Saiyan Arc kicks off.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 30, 2008)

Really, in a no - prep bloodlusted fight, Goku would win most of the time, but occasionally would fall victim to a lucky shot


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2008)

How would he fall victim to a lucky shot if he's going full out at the start exactly, if you don't mind my asking?


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## Endless Mike (Nov 30, 2008)

Sue getting a shield up in time to block his first attack and getting a forcefield inside of his body


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2008)

And how fast is Sue is exactly then?


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## Endless Mike (Nov 30, 2008)

Fast, but not fast enough to reliably tag Goku.

Hence the term "lucky shot"


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## Reznor (Nov 30, 2008)

How can the force field stop one attack from Goku, let alone against effectively instantaneous follow-up?

I didn't think it was nearly that strong.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 30, 2008)

High showings say it can

But it probably won't


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## Herekic (Dec 1, 2008)

> Fail. The only reason Thanos was susceptible to that (even though it didn't work) was because he had removed his enhanced sensory powers and most of the abilities of the Infinity Gems in order to impress Mistress Death. Afterwards he even said he had been a fool to do that and "willed himself back to full power" to fight the cosmic beings.







it's been too long since I read that series I suppose.


but I forget, didin't thanos somehow lose the gauntlet to somebody after they like tricked him? was this while he still had his omnicience off?







> How can the force field stop one attack from Goku, let alone against effectively instantaneous follow-up?
> 
> I didn't think it was nearly that strong.




the biggest feat I remember is her containing torch's nova blast thing, though she collapsed right afterwards(also I love how in that comic, it took like 3 mins for jhonny's air to run out in the little bubble, despite all that incredibly intense flame)



how is goku going into this fight? if he's unconcerned with the palnet's well being, he could just as well blow the whole continiental shelf off the map. he of course can't use planet bustng power, as if he blow up the planet it's a draw, not a win, but I'd imagine continent busting force would be enough to shatter sue's field in 99/100 showings of it


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## Darklyre (Dec 1, 2008)

With no prep, Goku really should win 99% of the time, with that last 1% being a lucky shot from Sue, as she's the only one with the ability to instakill, which they need against someone like him.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Dec 1, 2008)

Prep? Prime Mover with time fields equipped says hi.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 3, 2008)

Adam Warlock managed to enter the Soul Gem and get the Gauntlet from Thanos, but only because he was bonded to the Soul Gem (and because Thanos subconsciously considered himself unworthy of the power, so he let himself lose)


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## Dexion (Dec 3, 2008)

I'd say Goku SS3 with CIS off should be able to take overpower Sue's shield, then go kill Reed, Sue, Johnny, than Thing. In that order. The thing being the least threat since he could never land a punch on Goku.

Johnny is fast but isn't able to IT or make after-images so that = lose. Goku was able to survive the lava when he turned into a SS after Freiza thought he killed him so I don't think he'd have a problem with some heat, even though 2m degrees will definitely pose a threat. If Johnny Nova's than he can IT somewhere until its over.

Sue hast to be the first target since for a woman she can't multitask too well and once she's got her hands full Goku can quickly kill Reed.

He definitely can't screw up in a fight like this because #1 he can't sustain that power level for too long and #2 there's 4 opponents.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 3, 2008)

Reed has 2 days prep. Goku loses hard.


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