# Current Luffy vs Marineford Akainu



## Ushiromiya Battler (Jan 17, 2022)

Current Luffy fights Marineford Akainu instead of old sick Whitebeard. Can he defeat Akainu?


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## Chronophage (Jan 17, 2022)

No.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Velocity (Jan 17, 2022)

Luffy is eating multiple Conquerer’s Haki-infused blows per second. I don’t know how or why but his ability to soak damage is basically the same as Kaidou’s now. Maybe the Will of D. has something to do with it or he’s a Saiyan, I don’t know, but Luffy’s offensive and defensive abilities are out of this world now. Akainu doesn’t stand a chance. His Logia body won’t protect him from the shit Luffy will throw at him.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## God Movement (Jan 17, 2022)

Akainu > Kaido > Luffy

It's my opinion that all villains are static with the exception of the Blackbeard's. As such, Akainu is as strong as he ever will be already. Luffy loses and he will lose 10/10 times UNTIL the time of their battle comes, where he will surpass Akainu.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 9 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Kamisori (Jan 17, 2022)

Replace Luffy with Akainu and he beats the shit out of weakened Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 9 | Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 17, 2022)

I don't understand why people keep making these threads. Luffy has powered-up significantly, but Kaido still has an edge on him despite the fact that he's been weakened by fighting multiple opponents and lifting Onigashima.

What's worse is that Kaido is primarily a physical fighter. Most of his offense consists of the type of attacks that Luffy actually excels against (blunt melee attacks). Akainu is logia made of _magma. _If Luffy takes a hit to the face (just as he did in the latest chapter), he'll _die_. If Luffy stands on the ground (assuming Akainu awakens his DF), his feet will be incinerated. 

Even if you assume that Kaido is stronger than Akainu, Akainu's abilities are not the type that Luffy has went up against post-TS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chronophage (Jan 17, 2022)

The ONLY reason Luffy is currently fighting on par with Kaido is because Kaido has been through an endless gauntlet. Scabbards, the Rooftop 5, Yamato, Luffy. If Akainu went thorugh all of this then Luffy would most likely beat him, but definitely not a fresh Akainu lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The crazy hacker (Jan 17, 2022)

Akainu very high diff.


God Movement said:


> Akainu > Kaido > Luffy
> 
> It's my opinion that all villains are static with the exception of the Blackbeard's. As such, Akainu is as strong as he ever will be already. Luffy loses and he will lose 10/10 times UNTIL the time of their battle comes, where he will surpass Akainu.


Honestly it seems like Kaido has better feats than Akainu in Marineford. But by EoS Akainu would be stronger, considering he got 2 shot by WB in MF.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Akainu very high diff.
> 
> Honestly it seems like Kaido has better feats than Akainu in Marineford. But by EoS Akainu would be stronger, considering he got 2 shot by WB in MF.


Well obviously, it's not like Akainu went all out on MF. 
Oda should show us the PH fight. 
I don't like bringing Akainu or admirals feats against Yonkos because the latter are currently and constantly getting new feats. 
Specially since Oda introduced a lot of things since MF.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The crazy hacker (Jan 17, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Well obviously, it's not like Akainu went all out on MF.
> Oda should show us the PH fight.
> I don't like bringing Akainu or admirals feats against Yonkos because the latter are currently and constantly getting new feats.
> Specially since Oda introduced a lot of things since MF.


Why not i dont see why Akainu would hold back against WB.

I see Akainu currently being on Kaidos level but he loses extreme diff. By EoS Akainu should be stronger.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Why not i dont see why Akainu would hold back against WB.
> 
> I see Akainu currently being on Kaidos level but he loses extreme diff. By EoS Akainu should be stronger.


He did. 
The simple fact of not using awakening is one. 
The other is that he didn't want WB to destroy the island. 
He was protecting it. 

Admirals were nerfed, WB also was, no doubt in that.


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## Velocity (Jan 17, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Well obviously, it's not like Akainu went all out on MF.
> Oda should show us the PH fight.
> I don't like bringing Akainu or admirals feats against Yonkos because the latter are currently and constantly getting new feats.
> Specially since Oda introduced a lot of things since MF.


Right, there's been a considerable power inflation since the timeskip that pre-skip Akainu obviously doesn't get the benefit of. Since this thread specifies that Akainu, we can safely say current Luffy wins.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 17, 2022)

LuffY demolishes him. With barrier haki, future sight and advanced CotC, Akainu will have trouble landing a hit while taking considerable damage. God help him once a Kong Gatling or something comes out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Inferno Jewls (Jan 17, 2022)

MF Akainu high diffs current Luffy as he was holding back, The WBP would need to stall Akainu so Luffy can get his cheapshot in and hopes that the red dog does not comeback after that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Jan 17, 2022)

Akainu high diff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jan 17, 2022)

In the poll in Luffy vs WB is winning Luffy but in the poll of this thread Akainu wins.


Here apparently they do not argue with the truth only bias trolls.

Anyway no way the current Luffy loses this vs 
Luffy's speed and AP now with CoC coating would overwhelm Akainu. A G3 gatling or G4 Kong Organ with CoC coating would be crushing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## God Movement (Jan 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Akainu very high diff.
> 
> Honestly it seems like Kaido has better feats than Akainu in Marineford. But by EoS Akainu would be stronger, considering he got 2 shot by WB in MF.



Does he?

What feats are we talking about here? I don't like going off physical feats like destroying stuff etc... because Oda isn't consistent with it, and top tiers should really be busting islands by now, but Kaido can barely destroy buildings at times. But Akainu did fight well against Oldbeard despite losing in their encounter. I mean, he lost the battle but won the war. Still, there's no proof Kaido wouldn't suffer the same L


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## The crazy hacker (Jan 17, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Does he?
> 
> What feats are we talking about here? I don't like going off physical feats like destroying stuff etc... because Oda isn't consistent with it, and top tiers should really be busting islands by now, but Kaido can barely destroy buildings at times. But Akainu did fight well against Oldbeard despite losing in their encounter. I mean, he lost the battle but won the war. Still, there's no proof Kaido wouldn't suffer the same L


Well Whitebeard was significantly weakened and ill and he still beat Akainu. Although i see old WB being stronger than Kaido, i dont see WB as he was when he beat Akainu being able to beat Kaido.


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## The crazy hacker (Jan 17, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> He did.
> The simple fact of not using awakening is one.
> The other is that he didn't want WB to destroy the island.
> He was protecting it.
> ...


In their exchange it was obvious that weakened and ill WB>=Akainu. Kaido should be stronger than that. 

These guys can control thier attack potency. We see Luffy and Kaido not destroying that much in their fights but we know that they are island level.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> In their exchange it was obvious that weakened and ill WB>=Akainu. Kaido should be stronger than that.
> 
> These guys can control thier attack potency. We see Luffy and Kaido not destroying that much in their fights but we know that they are island level.


The nature of power that WB and Akainu have is completely different than Kaidou and Luffy. 

Look at PH for example.


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## Mihawk (Jan 17, 2022)

God Movement said:


> Akainu > Kaido > Luffy
> 
> It's my opinion that all villains are static with the exception of the Blackbeard's. As such, Akainu is as strong as he ever will be already. Luffy loses and he will lose 10/10 times UNTIL the time of their battle comes, where he will surpass Akainu.





Kamisori said:


> Replace Luffy with Akainu and he beats the shit out of weakened Kaido.





YellowCosmos said:


> I don't understand why people keep making these threads. Luffy has powered-up significantly, but Kaido still has an edge on him despite the fact that he's been weakened by fighting multiple opponents and lifting Onigashima.
> 
> What's worse is that Kaido is primarily a physical fighter. Most of his offense consists of the type of attacks that Luffy actually excels against (blunt melee attacks). Akainu is logia made of _magma. _If Luffy takes a hit to the face (just as he did in the latest chapter), he'll _die_. If Luffy stands on the ground (assuming Akainu awakens his DF), his feet will be incinerated.
> 
> Even if you assume that Kaido is stronger than Akainu, Akainu's abilities are not the type that Luffy has went up against post-TS.





Chronophage said:


> The ONLY reason Luffy is currently fighting on par with Kaido is because Kaido has been through an endless gauntlet. Scabbards, the Rooftop 5, Yamato, Luffy. If Akainu went thorugh all of this then Luffy would most likely beat him, but definitely not a fresh Akainu lol.





Gokou08 said:


> Well obviously, it's not like Akainu went all out on MF.
> Oda should show us the PH fight.
> I don't like bringing Akainu or admirals feats against Yonkos because the latter are currently and constantly getting new feats.
> Specially since Oda introduced a lot of things since MF.





Velocity said:


> Right, there's been a considerable power inflation since the timeskip that pre-skip Akainu obviously doesn't get the benefit of. Since this thread specifies that Akainu, we can safely say current Luffy wins.



I like how reasonable all these posts are

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 17, 2022)

Akainu was the superior one in the Akainu vs WB clash

walked off 2 rage quakes (one a sneak attack to the back - reminder that a club to the back put down Oden), gave WB a mortal wound despite the sneak attack

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2022)

The idea of Akainu powering up that much from MF is unlikely as he still had an extremely close match with Aokiji for FA, which implies at best if they were equals going into that fight Akainu got marginally stronger to win. Outside of that there is no evidence of growth yet and I’m not of the camp that gives characters huge growth. So if current Akainu is =~ MF Akainu then MF Akainu is beating Luffy as there is no way a future major antagonist for Luffy is weaker then a current one


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## Kaidi1234 (Jan 17, 2022)

U guy's must be seriously joking if u think marinford akainu wins against  current luffy. 
Sakazuki loses extreme diff all day come on people


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## arv993 (Jan 17, 2022)

MF akainu is weaker than current akainu and thus he loses, he would lose high diff to kaido and extreme diff to current luffy. 

Akainu can’t rely on betrayals or heart attacks here so he’d likely go down.


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## arv993 (Jan 17, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Akainu was the superior one in the Akainu vs WB clash
> 
> walked off 2 rage quakes (one a sneak attack to the back - reminder that a club to the back put down Oden), gave WB a mortal wound despite the sneak attack


Lol what about the heart attack freebie, the 8000 marine fodder hits and the squardo freebie, I would rather take a hit to the side of my head then take magma fist to my chest.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Jan 17, 2022)

Lol the admiral brigade mental gymnasts love to talk about the gauntlet kaido went through which luffy also did to some extent to be completely fair.

Luffy took high damage from various sources like kaido, big mom, apoo and ulti just for people’s reference.

But they won’t acknowledge the gauntlet old wb went through and the freebie hits he was giving out like candy.

Bunch of disingenuous dudes honestly.

MF akainu stalemated/lost to a much more nerfed wb than to luffy’s “nerfed” kaido??

Who here genuinely believes that anything kaido took so far is remotely close to a magma fist to the chest, kizaru beam to the chest and the countless fodder hits?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## JustSumGuy (Jan 17, 2022)

Doubt there’s that big a difference between MF Akainu and current Akainu so I’d go with Akainu.

Besides, we didn’t even see that version of Akainu fully let loose judging from Punk Hazard.

People hold that Marineford moment with WB too strongly against Akainu. The first attack was a cheap shot, and the second attack is the strongest showing of offensive force we’ve seen by an individual even now. Yes, Kaido is stronger than a dying WB but he hasn’t shown an attack that was as powerful as that island splitter and that didn’t even defeat Akainu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Furinji Saiga (Jan 17, 2022)

Luffy joins his brother in Pirate Hell. 

Akainu high difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Baroxio (Jan 17, 2022)

If Akainu could take out non-weakened Yonkou, then I doubt Yonkou would have survived for long. The marines made specific preparations to take on Whitebeard, and even then it came down to Whitebeard's sickness doing the job more than any of them. But just to deal with 1 emperor, the marines thought that they needed all 3 Admirals backed by all 7 Shichibukai (including the World's Strongest Swordsman, Mihawk), a fleet of Pacifistas, walls that negate Oldbeard's Quake attacks AND a man on the inside willing to betray Oldbeard and stab him in the heart. 

This forum exists in some weird Limbo where Akainu alone is strong enough to take out a Whitebeard who is far stronger than any of the Yonkou, but doesn't go after any of the "weaker" Yonkou, even when one canonically plopped itself on his doorstep (Shanks). I don't understand the logic, being honest. 

As for this matchup, Luffy wins. Yonkou are stronger than Admirals. They have to be, or they wouldn't exist. Also, I don't consider post-Heart Attack Questionable Haki Oldbeard as significantly beyond all of the other Yonkou, so if he was able to beat Akainu, then I'm pretty certain that the other (fresh) Yonkou could as well. Luffy, as of now, has proven that he has what it takes to tank through Yonkou-level blows and respond in kind. Luffy, in my eyes at least, is already a verifiable Emperor, and more than capable of fighting any singular Admiral. 

Granted, Jinbei mentioned in Fishman Island that the Marines have something new up their sleeve that's made them aggressively confident, so I expect Akainu to still give us a good fight in the future regardless.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Tier Specialist 6


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## Conxc (Jan 17, 2022)

Luffy gets sent to the Rumbar Pirates auditions.

It shouldn’t even be an option to not make a public poll. We need these people to know that this is *not *a safe space for them

Reactions: Funny 2 | Neutral 1


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## Corax (Jan 17, 2022)

Akainu's feats are very outdated. Anyway he should win by narrative/portrayal, since if Luffy is already strong enough to beat FA next arcs would be meaningless.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Akainu's feats are very outdated. Anyway he should win by narrative/portrayal, since if Luffy is already strong enough to beat FA next arcs would be meaningless.


A.) This battle is Marineford Admiral Akainu, not current Fleet Admiral Akainu who will certainly be much stronger. Do note that Marines have some "new power" on their side right now, which is why they're making moves to erase the Shichibukai system. I'm not sure what it is, but it's clear that it'll be something for Luffy to watch out for. 

Besides, I think Luffy, if he fights the Admirals, might face all 3 at once. This will be a callback to the scene in Marineford when he faces all 3 of them with the mast. Only this time, he fares much better as a solo act, and the Admirals lament their ability to kill him. Granted, this won't include Akainu, who is a fleet admiral now and can thus still be saved for a solo 1v1.


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> A.) This battle is Marineford Admiral Akainu, not current Fleet Admiral Akainu who will certainly be much stronger. Do note that Marines have some "new power" on their side right now, which is why they're making moves to erase the Shichibukai system. I'm not sure what it is, but it's clear that it'll be something for Luffy to watch out for.
> 
> Besides, I think Luffy, if he fights the Admirals, might face all 3 at once. This will be a callback to the scene in Marineford when he faces all 3 of them with the mast. Only this time, he fares much better as a solo act, and the Admirals lament their ability to kill him. Granted, this won't include Akainu, who is a fleet admiral now and can thus still be saved for a solo 1v1.


I doubt MF Akainu was so much weaker. Of course EOS Akainu will benefit from aCoC,awakening and may be even advanced voice of all things creep. But very likely MF Akainu had all this, just general power lvl. of this manga skyrocketed post Wano.


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## Mihawk (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Akainu's feats are very outdated. Anyway he should win by narrative/portrayal, since if Luffy is already strong enough to beat FA next arcs would be meaningless.


I don't think his feats are necessarily outdated. I just think that MF was structured in a very different way than most other arcs in the series, in the sense that it's not your standard battle shonen formula. Thus, it's difficult when posters apply that battledore logic to it and use it for comparison for other arcs like WCI, Wano, Dressrosa, etc.

This can be due to a number of reasons such as: the arc being over 10 years ago (which does mean some concepts are outdated), Haki not even being fleshed out back then to a basic extent, sneak attacks everywhere in the middle of an actual War which muddles what can be quantifiable as actual "feats", and showings of top tiers not going all out or constantly being held back becomes problematic in this case.

Not that I really mind since I think MF was fine the way that it was. Most of the frustration by people is due to said reasons and it deviating from the standard structure. I don't think we were meant to look at the arc that way. A lot of it was actual storytelling and not just 1v1 fights. Furthermore, Oda himself admitted that he had omitted _a lot_ of what he had originally intented to show/include in the War; and that if he did, Marineford would've been hundreds of chapters long. So it's best to take MF feats with a grain of salt yes; but also to understand that the portrayal of the characters there speaks more. 

In Akainu's case, it's the fact that he could clash equally with a WB who had yet to suffer heart attacks, gain an upper hand on him when he did, but get beat/taken down once the latter was completely bloodlusted and had the same opening. Of course, he also took off his head and returned to the battlefield to mow through plenty of pirates, but it just shows that the WSM was superior to everyone.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jan 18, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> I don't think his feats are necessarily outdated. I just think that MF was structured in a very different way than most other arcs in the series, in the sense that it's not your standard battle shonen formula. Thus, it's difficult when posters apply that battledore logic to it and use it for comparison for other arcs like WCI, Wano, Dressrosa, etc.
> 
> This can be due to a number of reasons such as: the arc being over 10 years ago (which does mean some concepts are outdated), Haki not even being fleshed out back then to a basic extent, sneak attacks everywhere in the middle of an actual War which muddles what can be quantifiable as actual "feats", and showings of top tiers not going all out or constantly being held back becomes problematic in this case.
> 
> ...


To be fair, Whitebeard only got those hits on a distracted Akainu, and even then he managed to mortally wound Whitebeard and he didn’t stay down for long after receiving those attacks.


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## Mihawk (Jan 18, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> To be fair, Whitebeard only got those hits on a distracted Akainu, and even then he managed to mortally wound Whitebeard and he didn’t stay down for long after receiving those attacks.


Yes, that's what I meant by the "same opening".


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> I don't think his feats are necessarily outdated.


They are clearly. No aCoC (even Yamato has it), no awakening (even Law and Kidd have it) etc. Without awakening and/or aCoC even high tiers struggle in Wano. Obviously 10 years ago such things weren't even a concept.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> They are clearly. No aCoC (even Yamato has it), no awakening (even Law and Kidd have it) etc. Without awakening and/or aCoC even high tiers struggle in Wano. Obviously 10 years ago such things weren't even a concept.


Akainu doesn't have ACoC. Also I would argue that Shanks used it to block his fist, knocking Coby out who received a blast because he was in such close range.


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Akainu doesn't have ACoC. Also I would argue that Shanks used it to block his fist, knocking Coby out who received a blast because he was in such close range.


Shanks didn't use it. His sword and Akainu's fist made a contact. aCoC wasn't even a concept 10 years ago. Obviously all top tiers should have aCoC if even Yamato and Zoro have it.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Shanks didn't use it. His sword and Akainu's fist made a contact. aCoC wasn't even a concept 10 years ago. Obviously all top tiers should have aCoC if even Yamato and Zoro have it.


Can't say for sure based on the angle. 

There is no 'obviously'. Admirals don't get the benefit of the doubt as they are noticeably weaker than Yonko. 

Yamato is clearly special and Zoro is the future WSS.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Can't say for sure based on the angle.
> 
> There is no 'obviously'. Admirals don't get the benefit of the doubt as they are noticeably weaker than Yonko.
> 
> Yamato is clearly special and Zoro is the future WSS.


How Yamato is more special than Teach/Akainu/Shanks?All they have aCoC obviously if even she has.


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## Mihawk (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Obviously 10 years ago such things weren't even a concept.


Yup and that was the point I was trying to make

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> How Yamato is more special than Teach/Akainu/Shanks?All they have aCoC obviously if even she has.


She is Kaido's successor. I also never said she is more special than Teach or Shanks. Akainu is just another WG dog. Nothing special. Nobody said an admiral should have every haki in any case.


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> She is Kaido's successor. I also never said she is more special than Teach or Shanks. Akainu is just another WG dog. Nothing special. Nobody said an admiral should have every haki in any case.


How Kaido's daughter is more special than Fleet Admiral?By same logic Bobbins is more special too.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> How Kaido's daughter is more special than Fleet Admiral?By same logic Bobbins is more special too.


He's just another admiral 

Katakuri has future sight, is he more special than Kaido who doesn't? 

Sorry, I know you're praying but he doesn't have ACoC, no matter how much you hope


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> He's just another admiral
> 
> Katakuri has future sight, is he more special than Kaido who doesn't?
> 
> Sorry, I know you're praying but he doesn't have ACoC, no matter how much you hope


Katakuri has CoC, just now awakened version. I easily can see EOS aCoC Dofla and Kata, let alone aCoC Akainu. This is just how power creep works.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Katakuri has CoC, just now awakened version. I easily can see EOS aCoC Dofla and Kata, let alone aCoC Akainu. This is just how power creep works.


No admiral has ACoC 

Akainu can’t beat current Luffy. Probably loses to post Udon Luffy tbh.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Shanks didn't use it. His sword and Akainu's fist made a contact. aCoC wasn't even a concept 10 years ago. Obviously all top tiers should have aCoC if even Yamato and Zoro have it.


Not all top tiers. Akainu might have it since he has leadership qualities. Oda won’t give it to kizaru and others, it would ruin the power up.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Gokou08 (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Not all top tiers. Akainu might have it since he has leadership qualities. Oda won’t give it to kizaru and others, *it would ruin the power up.*


Not exactly.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I don't understand why people keep making these threads. Luffy has powered-up significantly, but Kaido still has an edge on him despite the fact that he's been weakened by fighting multiple opponents and lifting Onigashima.
> 
> What's worse is that Kaido is primarily a physical fighter. Most of his offense consists of the type of attacks that Luffy actually excels against (blunt melee attacks). Akainu is logia made of _magma. _If Luffy takes a hit to the face (just as he did in the latest chapter), he'll _die_. If Luffy stands on the ground (assuming Akainu awakens his DF), his feet will be incinerated.
> 
> Even if you assume that Kaido is stronger than Akainu, Akainu's abilities are not the type that Luffy has went up against post-TS.


Akainu still ultimately lost his engagement in MF despite WB's own more severe handicaps. No reason to treat Luffy's feat of competing with Kaido as if it's any less than Akainu's feat of surviving a sick WB that had also gone through several opponents himself. Very hypocritical take. 

Moreover, you're forgetting the influence of haki. It's been serving as a shield that defends characters from attacks that should otherwise maim them for as long as it's been a concept. Don't see why you suddenly believe that Akainu's magma is somehow impossible to defend against even with haki. 

We've seen Akainu stopped in his tracks too many times for there to still be the illusion that he can just incinerate anything in his path. From Shanks stopping him with his sword, to even Jinbe palming his magma fist.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Not all top tiers. Akainu might have it since he has leadership qualities. Oda won’t give it to kizaru and others, it would ruin the power up.


Yamato and Zoro awakened aCoC  10 chapters after. Kidd might awaken it too soon. Power up is already obsolete.


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## Freechoice (Jan 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I don't understand why people keep making these threads.


I don't think anyone believes Luffy wins

This thread is to determine what diff he gives Akainu.

Idk


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## Beast (Jan 18, 2022)

My mind, body and soul were ready and it’s a big fucking No fucking chance from me.

Luffy ends up like Ace… dead.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

Freechoice said:


> I don't think anyone believes Luffy wins
> 
> This thread is to determine what diff he gives Akainu.
> 
> Idk


Traitor


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Not exactly.


So coc went from one in a million and advanced coc is rare even among them the coc users to it being given to every top tier ever?


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## Dark Knight (Jan 18, 2022)

All this Sakazuki overrating,only for him to be Sabo's opponent in the final war.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> Yamato and Zoro awakened aCoC  10 chapters after. Kidd might awaken it too soon. Power up is already obsolete.


If that’s the case and I hope it’s not, why not get Sanji on board too. It would be lame to have every top tier have the power up but that is my opinion. So far, it’s been used by leaders and people of great lineages.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> So coc went from one in a million and advanced coc is rare even among them the coc users to it being given to every top tier ever?


They're Top Tiers for a reason, and second the greatest military power in the Navy having CoC would ruin the power up? 
Doesn't make sense.


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> They're Top Tiers for a reason, and second the greatest military power in the Navy having CoC would ruin the power up?
> Doesn't make sense.


They are government workers, most of them
aren’t conquerors. Sengoku is the only one so far from the navy that has it. If I had to bet, I would say most of them outside of sakazuki won’t have it. Especially the advanced version isn’t for everyone. If every top tier had it, they wouldn’t make a big deal out of it at MF when they saw luffy use it.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Gokou08 (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> They are government workers, most of them
> aren’t conquerors. Sengoku is the only one so far from the navy that has it. If I had to bet, I would say most of them outside of sakazuki won’t have it. Especially the advanced version isn’t for everyone. If every top tier had it, they wouldn’t make a big deal of it at MF when they saw luffy use it.


Tell me how is Yamato and Zoro a conqueror? 
Or even Rayleigh for that matter. 
Even Hancock is not a conqueror. 
CoC isn't that rare anymore. 
Sure Fujitora may not have it, but it's not because he isn't a conqueror or a leader.


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## Eustathios (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> They are clearly. No aCoC (even Yamato has it), no awakening (even Law and Kidd have it) etc. Without awakening and/or aCoC even high tiers struggle in Wano. Obviously 10 years ago such things weren't even a concept.


Basic haki wasn't shown so don't expect AdCoC in MF. For all we know people there were using it and we simply couldn't see it.


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> Tell me how is Yamato and Zoro a conqueror?
> Or even Rayleigh for that matter.
> Even Hancock is not a conqueror.
> CoC isn't that rare anymore.
> Sure Fujitora may not have it, but it's not because he isn't a conqueror or a leader.


Zoro is special , he is sword god reincarnated. His ambition is to be WSS. 

Yamato is an offspring of kaido so special lineage.

Rayleigh is a king of sorts “dark king” Rayleigh and is a Zoro predecessor.

Also, the whole Mf hype cycle when luffy used it wouldn’t make any sense if every admiral had conquerors, I hope it’s somewhat rare. And kaido said advanced coc is even more rare which would be a doubly bad if every top tier had it.


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## Gokou08 (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Zoro is special , he is sword god reincarnated. His ambition is to be WSS.
> 
> Yamato is an offspring of kaido so special lineage.
> 
> ...


But that's the thing, Admirals are also special. 
You can't tell me Zoro and Ray have importance in the story without mentioning admirals. 
Fuji might have CoC to simply fight Zoro. 
Same as Akainu against Luffy.


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> But that's the thing, Admirals are also special.
> You can't tell me Zoro and Ray have importance in the story without mentioning admirals.
> Fuji might have CoC to simply fight Zoro.
> Same as Akainu against Luffy.


I can see akainu having it, sengoku had it. But I don’t think every admiral has it.

Fuji has an OP fruit with probably an OP awakening he may not need adv coc.

Why would they go ballistic at the thought of luffy showing coc if every mofo had adv conquerors.


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 18, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu still ultimately lost his engagement in MF despite WB's own more severe handicaps. No reason to treat Luffy's feat of competing with Kaido as if it's any less than Akainu's feat of surviving a sick WB that had also gone through several opponents himself. Very hypocritical take.
> 
> Moreover, you're forgetting the influence of haki. It's been serving as a shield that defends characters from attacks that should otherwise maim them for as long as it's been a concept. Don't see why you suddenly believe that Akainu's magma is somehow impossible to defend against even with haki.
> 
> We've seen Akainu stopped in his tracks too many times for there to still be the illusion that he can just incinerate anything in his path. From Shanks stopping him with his sword, to even Jinbe palming his magma fist.



I didn't forget the influence of haki nor did I say that Akainu is somehow unblockable. I was only saying that _if_ Akainu manages to capitalize on openings in the same way Kaido is doing in this fight, Luffy will take very serious injuries or die (if it is a hit to the head). Awakening can also take people by surprise (we saw it happening in the Luffy vs Kata fight). The effects of Akainu's attacks on his opponents have been consistent against all kinds of opponents, including top tiers.

Not sure why you think anyone can forget Jimbei or Shanks blocked Akainu...

And my position isn't hypocritical. It seems hypocritical to you because you think I share relevant beliefs or assumptions with you.
I don't think Akainu would have "lost" to Whitebeard if Whitebeard hadn't both blindsided Akainu and thrown all regard for his own safety out of the window. I also don't believe MF Whitebeard could beat Akainu 1 vs 1 in a fair fight (nor do I believe he could beat Kaido or BIg Mom or Shanks and so on in a fair fight). So the fact that Akainu lost the engagement is neither here nor there from my point of view...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Zoro is special , he is sword god reincarnated. His ambition is to be WSS.
> 
> Yamato is an offspring of kaido so special lineage.
> 
> ...


I don't think CoC is lineage related. Out of million BM's kids only Kata had it. Any type of haki is willpower/ambition related. People with strong ambition are conquerors this is all.


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## Eustathios (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> I don't think CoC is lineage related. Out of million BM's kids only Kata had it. Any type of haki is willpower/ambition related. People with strong ambition are conquerors this is all.


You're born with it. Those who have it are simply more prone to become ambitious and charismatic figures, not the other way around.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> I don't think CoC is lineage related. Out of million BM's kids only Kata had it. Any type of haki is willpower/ambition related. People with strong ambition are conquerors this is all.


The marines said it made sense Luffy had CoC because he's the son of Dragon, heavily implying he got it from him.


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> The marines said it made sense Luffy had CoC because he's the son of Dragon, heavily implying he got it from him.


Really? 

I only remember Akainu mentioning dragon once he saw luffy.

Everybody was just surprised because him having COC meant another possible  problematic pirate they couldn't stop.




Corax said:


> I don't think CoC is lineage related. Out of million BM's kids only Kata had it. Any type of haki is willpower/ambition related. People with strong ambition are conquerors this is all.


Look at even Doflamingo,


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

Corax said:


> I don't think CoC is lineage related. Out of million BM's kids only Kata had it. Any type of haki is willpower/ambition related. People with strong ambition are conquerors this is all.


Look at even Doflamingo,


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Really?
> 
> I only remember Akainu mentioning dragon once he saw luffy.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

Thing is though, what would he say about Doflamingo ,  or Boa hancock or Sengoku?

I'm not sure he was talking from a hereditary standpoint,  Dragon is quite a problem and Luffy is becoming a great threat.

You'd generally expect great things from the son of an infamous person.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Thing is though, what would he say about Doflamingo ,  or Boa hancock or Sengoku?
> 
> I'm not sure he was talking from a hereditary standpoint,  Dragon is quite a problem and Luffy is becoming a great threat.
> 
> You'd generally expect great things from the son of an infamous person.


I don't get your first question, why would he say anything  about them? Dragon being a huge nuisance doesnt really explain why Luffy would have CoC unless he has it too. Dragon having CoC would also explain why Ivankov instantly recognized it, just like the pirates would from Whitebeard and the marines from Sengoku. Children of very an infamous person do perform great feats yes unless your mom is Big Mom


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> I don't get your first question, why would he say anything  about them? Dragon being a huge nuisance doesnt really explain why Luffy would have CoC unless he has it too. Dragon having CoC would also explain why Ivankov instantly recognized it, just like the pirates would from Whitebeard and the marines from Sengoku. Children of very an infamous person do perform great feats yes unless your mom is Big Mom


Luffy is also ambitious, unlike 99% of the lazy BM kids.


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> I don't get your first question, why would he say anything  about them? Dragon being a huge nuisance doesnt really explain why Luffy would have CoC unless he has it too. Dragon having CoC would also explain why Ivankov instantly recognized it, just like the pirates would from Whitebeard and the marines from Sengoku. Children of very an infamous person do perform great feats yes unless your mom is Big Mom


It's the hereditary reasoning that I question.  Basically he isn't going to look on flamingo and say it makes sense like flamingo has COC haki because his father has it.  Flamingo's father wasn't even a fighter and flamingo developed the COC haki.


Luffy on the other hand took down 2 shichibukai and was somewhat responsible for the destruction of enies lobby, him burning the Government flag was basically declaring war on them.....essentially the same exact thing Dragon is doing.

They know luffy's  current infamous record, Dragon is infamous and has COC, Luffy has an infamous record of his and his dragon's son.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Luffy is also ambitious, unlike 99% of the lazy BM kids.


true



Canute87 said:


> It's the hereditary reasoning that I question.  Basically he isn't going to look on flamingo and say it makes sense like flamingo has COC haki because his father has it.  Flamingo's father wasn't even a fighter and flamingo developed the COC haki.
> 
> 
> Luffy on the other hand took down 2 shichibukai and was somewhat responsible for the destruction of enies lobby, him burning the Government flag was basically declaring war on them.....essentially the same exact thing Dragon is doing.
> ...


Doffy is probably the only one in his family with CoC, same with Boa, and probably Sengoku. (Or perhaps Doffy got it from his mother?)  
We have never heard of WB's, Kaido's, Boa's and Sengoku's parents so they most likely were not that infamous people. It's probably also rare to inherit it even if your parent was a big shot, just look at Big Mom, only 1 out of 50 kids inherited it.


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> true
> 
> 
> Doffy is probably the only one in his family with CoC, same with Boa, and probably Sengoku. (Or perhaps Doffy got it from his mother?)
> We have never heard of WB's, Kaido's, Boa's and Sengoku's parents so they most likely were not that infamous people. It's probably also rare to inherit it even if your parent was a big shot, just look at Big Mom, only 1 out of 50 kids inherited it.



Do you remember Ace having any grand ambitions prior to his COC haki blast as a Kid?


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Do you remember Ace having any grand ambitions prior to his COC haki blast as a Kid?


You're thinking is too narrow. all conqeurors are born with it thats a fact, coc is not taught. But not all conquerors will showcase it if they are weak or didnt come across hardships.

So big mom kids are mostly not good enough, although they might have latent potential. Also a bit of PIS, we can't have 50 conquerors in one crew.


Ace was special and a D and was really strong as a kid and encountered tough circumstances where he needed to use the skill. Sometimes there are abberations like WB, oden and even big mom who are born monsters that have a conquerors’ will but they are all born with it still but without any special background/lineage.

Luffy is a D and trained like a mad man as a kid and teenager; he unlocked it and had a good bloodline as doberman and Garp alluded to.


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## Canute87 (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> You're thinking is too narrow. all conqeurors are born with it thats a fact, coc is not taught. But not all conquerors will showcase it if they are weak or didnt come across hardships.
> 
> So big mom kids are mostly not good enough, although they might have latent potential. Also a bit of PIS, we can't have 50 conquerors in one crew.
> 
> ...


I understand the fact that you are born with.

What is confusing to me is what exactly causes this to trigger.  There's wide range of personalities and ambitions that have managed to attract this level of power. From the likes of Roger to Chinjao /Flamingo.

What is it about luffy and Zoro.

If both were COC users why did Luffy's COC haki unlock so much earlier than Zoro's?  Why didn't Zoro's COC haki unlock after the thriller bark incident.  But Ace's own unlocked when he was a Kid saving some thugs.


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I didn't forget the influence of haki nor did I say that Akainu is somehow unblockable. I was only saying that _if_ Akainu manages to capitalize on openings in the same way Kaido is doing in this fight, Luffy will take very serious injuries or die (if it is a hit to the head). Awakening can also take people by surprise (we saw it happening in the Luffy vs Kata fight). The effects of Akainu's attacks on his opponents have been consistent against all kinds of opponents, including top tiers.
> 
> Not sure why you think anyone can forget Jimbei or Shanks blocked Akainu...
> 
> ...


The argument assumes that haki wouldn't be sufficient to defend in the same way it could defend against blunt force, is the point. That was, like, the whole premise of your argument. Haki can still defend blows to the head regardless of whether or not the individual is in a position to physically block, and we've also witnessed that plenty of times, which is why it's strange to see you argue that something like that would be fatal for Luffy in this scenario. The same haki that allowed Luffy to take blows that he couldn't withstand before would naturally allow him to take magma attacks as well, since the nature of haki doesn't care whether or not the attack is magma.

Which we see from the examples with Jinbe or Shanks. Your stance that Luffy would somehow be more susceptible to magma attacks since they're not blunt force is clearly contradicted by haki allowing people to defend with swords, or even flesh. Hence my saying it's like you forgot about that...

No, it's hypocritical because you treat Luffy's performance as if it's insufficient to place him on this level because of Kaido's exhaustion despite the fact that WB was even more handicapped during the war. That remains true regardless of whether or not you think Akainu would've ultimately won if the exchange continued. The fact that you don't think MF WB could've defeated any of these people is even more damning considering how Luffy is actually performing better against Kaido than Akainu did against WB before his heart attacks. Especially since Akainu was still directly overpowered even though he was initially blindsided.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Do you remember Ace having any grand ambitions prior to his COC haki blast as a Kid?


nope, not other than killing every filthy human who hated Roger or Roger's hypothetical offspring
The whole ambition thing is kinda odd, does Yamato have any kingly ambition?


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 18, 2022)

9


Chip Skylark said:


> The argument assumes that haki wouldn't be sufficient to defend in the same way it could defend against blunt force, is the point. That was, like, the whole premise of your argument. Haki can still defend blows to the head regardless of whether or not the individual is in a position to physically block, and we've also witnessed that plenty of times, which is why it's strange to see you argue that something like that would be fatal for Luffy in this scenario. The same haki that allowed Luffy to take blows that he couldn't withstand before would naturally allow him to take magma attacks as well, since the nature of haki doesn't care whether or not the attack is magma.
> 
> Which we see from the examples with Jinbe or Shanks. Your stance that Luffy would somehow be more susceptible to magma attacks since they're not blunt force is clearly contradicted by haki allowing people to defend with swords, or even flesh. Hence my saying it's like you forgot about that...
> 
> No, it's hypocritical because you treat Luffy's performance as if it's insufficient to place him on this level because of Kaido's exhaustion despite the fact that WB was even more handicapped during the war. That remains true regardless of whether or not you think Akainu would've ultimately won if the exchange continued. The fact that you don't think MF WB could've defeated any of these people is even more damning considering how Luffy is actually performing better against Kaido than Akainu did against WB before his heart attacks. Especially since Akainu was still directly overpowered even though he was initially blindsided.



I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you think I think Akainu is at that level because of his performance against Whitebeard? If I were saying that (and only that), then I'd agree that my case was hypocritical. But that's not the reason I think Akainu is at that level...

Or are you saying that I should rate Luffy higher because he performed better (not sure what the basis of that claim is) against a stronger opponent than Akainu did vs WB?

As for the haki stuff, again, notice I used words like surprise, opening etc. I am not denying haki on the face can potentially block a hit from a magma attack either; I'm saying that if it fails either to resist or is not applied in time then Luffy will take serious damage, the kind of damage that's consistent with the portrayal of magma. Akainu took half of Whitebeard's face off, punched a hole in a number of people and burned off one of Aokiji's legs. 

Since the feats are outdated or off-screened, we can't say which type and how much haki came into play against them, but I don't see any reason to think current Luffy (who may still fail to beat Kaido without more help) won't suffer such a hit during the course of his fight due to a mistake, a failed block or whatever, regardless of his current haki feats. (I'm not mistaken, there's _some _evidence that the type of attack that haki tries to block matters... not sure if you want to get into that).

As for the rubber thing, I'm not sure why you're arguing about this. We know Luffy is rubbery, we know haki can enforce his rubberiness and we know that if both elements are strong enough he can mitigate damage from even sharp attacks by being rubbery. That combination is less effective against magma because only haki comes into play against it in Luffy's case. Being hard or bouncy won't matter.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> If both were COC users why did Luffy's COC haki unlock so much earlier than Zoro's? Why didn't Zoro's COC haki unlock after the thriller bark incident. But Ace's own unlocked when he was a Kid saving some thugs.


Luffy unlocked his by fighting a fodder bison, apparantly that's what triggered it  . And his CoC was so weak that it affected literally nobody else, not even Duval who was riding the bison, yet Kidflamingo managed to knock out a whole crowd of people. If Shanks scaring away a sea king is CoC, then Zoro scaring away bounty hunters is probably also CoC.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> Luffy unlocked his by fighting a fodder bison, apparantly that's what triggered it  . And his CoC was so weak that it affected literally nobody else, not even Duval who was riding the bison, yet Kidflamingo managed to knock out a whole crowd of people. If Shanks scaring away a sea king is CoC, then Zoro scaring away bounty hunters is probably also CoC.


"Kidflamigo".


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 18, 2022)

Code said:


> "Kidflamigo".


Suprised I havent heard that before in the OP community lol


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> I understand the fact that you are born with.
> 
> What is confusing to me is what exactly causes this to trigger.  There's wide range of personalities and ambitions that have managed to attract this level of power. From the likes of Roger to Chinjao /Flamingo.
> 
> ...


Luffy needed it to save his bro and ace had a similar reason. 

Oda just wrote the story like that, basically harsh situations bring the best out of people etc.


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## Captain Quincy (Jan 18, 2022)

arv993 said:


> If every top tier had it, they wouldn’t make a big deal out of it at MF when they saw luffy use it.


Everyone relevant will probably have it

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Captain Quincy (Jan 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> If both were COC users why did Luffy's COC haki unlock so much earlier than Zoro's?  Why didn't Zoro's COC haki unlock after the thriller bark incident.  But Ace's own unlocked when he was a Kid saving some thugs.


Just plot. Don't think we'll ever get a detailed answer to this.


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> 9
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you think I think Akainu is at that level because of his performance against Whitebeard? If I were saying that (and only that), then I'd agree that my case was hypocritical. But that's not the reason I think Akainu is at that level...
> ...


Honestly not sure what else you’d use to gauge Akainu’s ability. It’s his only on panel fight against another top tier, and objectively he didn’t perform any better than Luffy has against someone we both agree is stronger.

I base this on the fact that the only time Akainu ever managed to land a hit was when WB suffered a heart attack mid battle, and when, as you said yourself, he had no regard for his defense.

Akainu only took off Aokiji’s leg at the end of a ten day battle. He burned a hole in people tiers below him that didn’t have the appropriate level of haki to defend. He burned off half of Oldbeard’s face when he couldn’t consistently use haki, and again, as you said, had little regard for his own safety. Never mind the switch in your argument here from your original stance that Luffy wouldn’t be able to defend against the “type of attack” Akainu uses as effectively, I really don’t see how any of those examples would suggest that a healthy character with more than enough feats to compete on this level would suffer injuries like that throughout the course of a heated battle in spite of his haki feats. In fact, Aokiji’s show of fighting evenly against him for 10 days should serve to prove otherwise.

If you have evidence that the type of attack matters then I’m not gonna hold you back from posting it to support your argument. Otherwise your argument doesn’t really make sense, and seems to lack consistency if I’m being honest.

I never said anything about Luffy’s rubber? I could only guess that you’re referencing his durability in G4, but I’ve only been referring to what we’ve seen of his recent performance in base. Only thing you could attribute to that is his haki. Not his rubber body. Hence the examples I gave of people/things that don’t have any rubber property defending against Akainu’s magma. Not sure why you would think that Luffy’s rubber body is a prominent factor of his durability against opponents with haki that can get around his rubberness.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## gunchar (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> The nature of power that WB and Akainu have is completely different than Kaidou and Luffy.
> 
> *Look at PH for example.*



Are we really pretending now that changing the landscape + weather on merely half an island, after a 10 days all out fight between two Element Manipulators would be some insanely impressive feat after Kaido lifted a whole island practically as a side activity?

With that being said, can we please just stop with these threads? Akainu is obviously not loosing to Current Luffy.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Jan 18, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Everyone relevant will probably have it


I Hope sanji joins the gang too, then lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## gunchar (Jan 18, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> The whole ambition thing is kinda odd, does Yamato have any kingly ambition?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Gokou08 (Jan 18, 2022)

gunchar said:


> Are we really pretending now that changing the landscape + weather on merely half an island, after a 10 days all out fight between two Element Manipulators would be some insanely impressive feat after Kaido lifted a whole island practically as a side activity?
> 
> With that being said, can we please just stop with these threads? Akainu is obviously not loosing to Current Luffy.


My man, who said the island were not a side activity and a collateral effect of the fight? 

You guys really want to downplay a feat that big? 
Changing an entire climate of an island permanently is a huge feat.


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## gunchar (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> My man, who said the island were not a side activity and a collateral effect of the fight?



That would be almost irrelevant, cause Kaido's feat would be still significantly better due to the context.



Gokou08 said:


> You guys really want to downplay a feat that big?
> Changing an entire climate of an island permanently is a huge feat.



For OP Top Tiers several years ago sure, for OP Top Tiers now nah.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Velocity (Jan 18, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> You guys really want to downplay a feat that big?
> Changing an entire climate of an island permanently is a huge feat.


Is it? I mean, that _sounded_ impressive before we found out that Devil Fruits can be awakened. Now it just seems as though Akainu and Aokiji used their awakened Devil Fruits to transmute the land into their element. That's nowhere near as impressive as changing the climate through sheer power alone.

I'm sure even Doflamingo could turn half of Punk Hazard into string if you gave him ten days to do it.


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 18, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Never mind the switch in your argument here from your original stance that Luffy wouldn’t be able to defend against the “type of attack” Akainu uses as effectively,



What original stance are you talking about? My first post consisted of a bunch of unqualified assertions - you've been consistently filling the blanks with guesses about my exact meaning and the reasoning and implications of my claims, while I try to clarify.



Chip Skylark said:


> Honestly not sure what else you’d use to gauge Akainu’s ability.



Akainu has plenty of hype elsewhere.



Chip Skylark said:


> I base this on the fact that the only time Akainu ever managed to land a hit was when WB suffered a heart attack mid battle, and when, as you said yourself, he had no regard for his defense.



The battles in Marineford weren't detailed fights. We saw snapshots of some fights, but we also know the battle between Whitebeard and Akainu going on when we couldn't see it. I don't see any reason to assume that they did no other damage to each other or that, at least, if the fight were given a proper treatment, the fight wouldn't have more interesting moments (where one or the other was in danger).

Also, note that you can flip that argument on its head. Akainu didn't take any damage or hits (that we could see) from Whitebeard until Whitebeard blindsided him. What does that imply for his fight vs Luffy? 

But I simply don't buy that because we only saw a couple of hits that there were just a couple of hits.



Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu only took off Aokiji’s leg at the end of a ten day battle.



You don't know that.



Chip Skylark said:


> I really don’t see how any of those examples would suggest that a healthy character with more than enough feats to compete on this level would suffer injuries like that throughout the course of a heated battle in spite of his haki feats. In fact, Aokiji’s show of fighting evenly against him for 10 days should serve to prove otherwise.



I was pointing out the effect of getting a clean hit, given a haki defense failing or not being applied in time. The idea that Luffy can always apply his defence in time against Akainu or that it can't be overcome by Akainu at any point in time is completely baseless.

As for Aokiji, I remind you that there's _some _evidence that Aokiji's haki (and Akainu's for that matter) is more impressive than Luffy's judging by the size of the barrier they deployed around the scaffold (_assuming _1) that was a haki feat and 2) that size correlates to strength where such barriers are concerned).



Chip Skylark said:


> If you have evidence that the type of attack matters then I’m not gonna hold you back from posting it to support your argument.



Chapter 641, Luffy, bitten by Hody,: "CoA holds up well against blows and impacts... but my haki is still not strong enough for this kind of attack". (Assuming the translation is correct, this implies blunt attacks are easier for haki to deal with than cutting attacks).
Chapter 1034, Sanji, either his exoskeleton enabled his previous level of haki to tolerate higher temperatures, or his exoskeleton and further improvements to his haki allowed him to tolerate higher temperatures. At the very least, there's an indication that you need more powerful haki to tolerate higher temperatures.

Then you have a lot of minor things which may or may not be significant. Kaido and Big Mom were unShamblesable by Law (he couldn't teleport them around), yet his other techniques could affect them. (That might because Shambles is not as _powerful _as these techniques, but it may also be an issue related to _type). _Big Mom seemed unwilling to block Franky's Radical Beam with her haki, picking up a homie as a shield, although her haki is ridiculously strog. (Lasers have always been hyped as being very powerful). You have things like Luffy's haki being unable to protect him from Katakuri's stickiness in spite of the fact that it could block blades etc.

I don't have an exhaustive list of examples - these are the things that occured to me as I'm writing - but I think these are enough to show that whether haki _cares _about the type of attack is an open question.


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## gunchar (Jan 18, 2022)

@Daisuke Jigen
Do you have some really strong butthurt, or what do you want from me XD?

Edit: Oh interessting, are you actually the alt of @TheWiggian? That would definitely explain the butthurt XD.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> What original stance are you talking about? My first post consisted of a bunch of unqualified assertions - you've been consistently filling the blanks with guesses about my exact meaning and the reasoning and implications of my claims, while I try to clarify.


“Akainu is logia made of _magma. _If Luffy takes a hit to the face (just as he did in the latest chapter), he'll _die_. If Luffy stands on the ground (assuming Akainu awakens his DF), his feet will be incinerated.”

Statements you made like this really aren’t that ambiguous in meaning. You were clearly saying that Luffy isn’t as equipped to deal with magma attacks as he is with blunt force. You could always elaborate, but its really not like I’ve been guessing at your meaning. 


YellowCosmos said:


> Akainu has plenty of hype elsewhere.


Like…?


YellowCosmos said:


> The battles in Marineford weren't detailed fights. We saw snapshots of some fights, but we also know the battle between Whitebeard and Akainu going on when we couldn't see it. I don't see any reason to assume that they did no other damage to each other or that, at least, if the fight were given a proper treatment, the fight wouldn't have more interesting moments (where one or the other was in danger).


Even if we couldn’t see the entire fight we could clearly see that, outside of his wound from Squard, WB was completely untouched at the moment of his heart attack.

You could assume whatever you’d like about the fight, but without an actual basis it doesn’t make for an argument any better than my saying something like “if this Wano battle wasn’t written for the sake of tension I see no reason to assume that Luffy wouldn’t have easily beaten Kaido a while ago”.


YellowCosmos said:


> Also, note that you can flip that argument on its head. Akainu didn't take any damage or hits (that we could see) from Whitebeard until Whitebeard blindsided him. What does that imply for his fight vs Luffy?


Are you asking what would that imply for MF WB’s fight with Luffy? 

If so, you’re using that argument on the wrong person lol. I’ll be the first one to vocalize how weakened WB was during the war.


YellowCosmos said:


> You don't know that.


It’s common sense. Or should be. The fight naturally wouldn’t have lasted for that long, let alone have been an even exchange if Akainu were maiming Aokiji with attacks in the middle of it. 


YellowCosmos said:


> I was pointing out the effect of getting a clean hit, given a haki defense failing or not being applied in time. The idea that Luffy can always apply his defence in time against Akainu or that it can't be overcome by Akainu at any point in time is completely baseless.


It’s based on his performance against a top tier more powerful than Akainu. You’ve yet to post anything to support your argument for Akainu’s strength despite saying you have this evidence.


YellowCosmos said:


> As for Aokiji, I remind you that there's _some _evidence that Aokiji's haki (and Akainu's for that matter) is more impressive than Luffy's judging by the size of the barrier they deployed around the scaffold (_assuming _1) that was a haki feat and 2) that size correlates to strength where such barriers are concerned).


Guess I gotta ask. What evidence is there that size correlates to strength where barriers are concerned? Luffy’s barrier that stopped Kaido’s attack was tiny, but obviously incredibly powerful. Clearly more so than the larger barriers that we’ve seen a character like Sentoumaru erect.


YellowCosmos said:


> Chapter 641, Luffy, bitten by Hody,: "CoA holds up well against blows and impacts... but my haki is still not strong enough for this kind of attack". (Assuming the translation is correct, this implies blunt attacks are easier for haki to deal with than cutting attacks).
> Chapter 1034, Sanji, either his exoskeleton enabled his previous level of haki to tolerate higher temperatures, or his exoskeleton and further improvements to his haki allowed him to tolerate higher temperatures. At the very least, there's an indication that you need more powerful haki to tolerate higher temperatures.
> 
> Then you have a lot of minor things which may or may not be significant. Kaido and Big Mom were unShamblesable by Law (he couldn't teleport them around), yet his other techniques could affect them. (That might because Shambles is not as _powerful _as these techniques, but it may also be an issue related to _type). _Big Mom seemed unwilling to block Franky's Radical Beam with her haki, picking up a homie as a shield, although her haki is ridiculously strog. (Lasers have always been hyped as being very powerful). You have things like Luffy's haki being unable to protect him from Katakuri's stickiness in spite of the fact that it could block blades etc.
> ...


Stronger attacks/energy typically require stronger haki to deal with. That’s basically the only thing your first examples articulated. Which is less about the type of attack, and more about the strength of the attack. 

Also shambles isn’t a physical attack.  Haki can counter DF abilities, but they don’t stop the ability from working completely like BB’s yami yami. Which is why Luffy can still be hurt without haki stopping him from being rubber. Which is why Luffy can’t stop mochi from being sticky. Also why Law’s metaphysical attacks can be stopped, but haki clearly can’t stop countershock from producing electricity, for example.


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## Mihawk (Jan 18, 2022)

Tbh CoC just seems like a benchmark at this point where the “strongest” or strong people from this point onward, just have it.

It was unique and rare back in MF and the beginning of the timeskip. Now it just seems like it’s being set up to be a mandatory requirement for guys to compete at this level.

But I don’t know...it’d be pretty refreshing to have people without advanced CoC competing at the same level with guys who have it. Doesn’t seem like the route that Oda is going tho. Seems more like everyone who’s worth their salt or what not is going to have it.


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 18, 2022)

When there are people like Law and King I don't think we should just assume every high or top tier is going to possess it. The admirals feared it back at MF for a reason.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 18, 2022)

gunchar said:


> With that being said, can we please just stop with these threads? Akainu is obviously not loosing to Current Luffy.


Luffy is currently going toe to toe with the person viewed as the strongest alive. What makes you think Akainu is on Luffy's level?

Haki? Luffy by a mile
Speed? Luffy
Strength?Luffy
Power?Luffy

What exactly makes Akainu even worth Luffy's time at this point? 

Luffy fighting on par with Kaido is a feat far surpassing anything Akainu has done. 


gunchar said:


> @Daisuke Jigen
> Do you have some really strong butthurt, or what do you want from me XD?
> 
> Edit: Oh interessting, are you actually the alt of @TheWiggian? That would definitely explain the butthurt XD.


Jigen is a ratings bot, programmed to give you a tier specialist if you say anything remotely bad about admirals.

Wiggian is a chatbot designed to wank admirals. Also every 5 or 6 posts the chatbot will likely include "Mere Yonko  " or "Sakazuki is the WSM"

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Captain Quincy (Jan 19, 2022)

MF Akainu doesn't really have the strength or speed showings to match current Luffy. And this'll just get worse as the Kaido fight goes on.

People point out Akainu melting WB's face but I mean obviously lava melts flesh lol. There's no reason to think Luffy would still get liquified by every hit if he just blocks with armament haki.

MF Akainu also has no indication of having CoC which puts him at a disadvantage.


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> “Akainu is logia made of _magma. _If Luffy takes a hit to the face (just as he did in the latest chapter), he'll _die_. If Luffy stands on the ground (assuming Akainu awakens his DF), his feet will be incinerated.”
> 
> Statements you made like this really aren’t that ambiguous in meaning. *You were clearly saying that Luffy isn’t as equipped to deal with magma attacks as he is with blunt force. *You could always elaborate, but its really not like I’ve been guessing at your meaning.



I was clearly saying the bolded, yes, which in effect means that given Luffy's current arsenal and feats Akainu's attacks are more dangerous to him than Kaido's. But the stuff about me saying Luffy's haki can't block magma under any circumstances or that he can't defend his feet and face with advanced haki came from you, not me. I only _meant_ that Luffy will be punished more for his mistakes.



Chip Skylark said:


> Like…?



I'm not going into the rabbit hole of an Admirals vs Yonkou debate here. My point was simply that I wasn't dependent on Whitebeard vs Akainu to scale Akainu; in other words, my position was not as you characterized it.



Chip Skylark said:


> Even if we couldn’t see the entire fight we could clearly see that, outside of his wound from Squard, WB was completely untouched at the moment of his heart attack.



And you can clearly see that Whitebeard's wounds in the battle don't match the list of injuries he received according to the final tally: "267 sword wounds, 152 bullets and 46 cannon blasts". Most of those wounds were not portrayed as significant and were never depicted after the fact at any point during the war.

The fact he was untouched at the moment of his heart attack is neither here not there. Not sure what all this is about. Whitebeard and Akainu began fighting in Chapter 567 and he had a heart attack in chapter 568; neither of them had any visible injuries from each other at that point. Either you assume that Oda didn't bother depicting insignificant injuries (that what we saw skipped some things) or that neither of them injured the other at that point (that Oda didn't skip anything). In the former case, your point is moot. In the latter case, you have an encounter which is so short as to be unrepresentative (we've seen how long top tiers can fight in multiple cases), which makes your point just as moot. Whitebeard having a heart attack can also be a credit to Akainu. That heart attack was either a massive coincidence or caused by the strain of fighting Akainu. In the former case, all it does is make Whitebeard unlucky. In the latter case, it's an opening created in part by Akainu's strength.



Chip Skylark said:


> Are you asking what would that imply for MF WB’s fight with Luffy?



No, I'm asking what it implies for Luffy's fight with Akainu.



Chip Skylark said:


> It’s common sense. Or should be. The fight naturally wouldn’t have lasted for that long, let alone have been an even exchange if Akainu were maiming Aokiji with attacks in the middle of it.



It's common sense that ignores the uncommon abilities of top tiers. I'm not saying he got the injury in the beginning, but there's plenty of room between the middle and end (like the eighth or ninth day) in which Akainu could have inflicted that injury, swinging the fight in his favour. Aokiji can obviously make a prosthesis and he'll still remain a logia, so I don't see why we should say he had to receive the injury at the end.



Chip Skylark said:


> It’s based on his performance against a top tier more powerful than Akainu. You’ve yet to post anything to support your argument for Akainu’s strength despite saying you have this evidence.



I'm not interested in discussing that evidence. There have been twenty billion Admirals vs Yonkou debates on this forum. Go through to them if you want and assume I agree with the good arguments for Admirals = Yonkou in them. I get that evidence doesn't convince you, but it convinces me. Agree to disagree.



Chip Skylark said:


> Guess I gotta ask. What evidence is there that size correlates to strength where barriers are concerned? Luffy’s barrier that stopped Kaido’s attack was tiny, but obviously incredibly powerful. Clearly more so than the larger barriers that we’ve seen a character like Sentoumaru erect.



Actually, it's not clearly more powerful. It would be clearly more powerful if Sentoumaru's larger barrier failed to do what Luffy's barrier did. At this point, you don't know what's more powerful because you just don't have have the relevant information.

There isn't any evidence that size correlates to strength (beyond the fact that size and scale of attacks is typically used to hype the difference between weaker and stronger attacks in One Piece and many other shounen), which is why I pointed out an assumption was required. But there _also_ isn't any evidence that it doesn't correlate to strength; the opposing view also requires an assumption (one that's less plausible in my view, but whatever). Without any clear reason to prefer one of these assumptions, we're not in a position to say Aokiji's haki isn't stronger than Luffy's, which means we're not in a position to say that Akainu's attacks don't have a chance of breaking through Luffy's haki.

So why should anyone think that the fact that Akainu (allegedly) failed to seriously injure Aokiji until the end of their fight is significant for this fight?



Chip Skylark said:


> Stronger attacks/energy typically require stronger haki to deal with. That’s basically the only thing your first examples articulated. Which is less about the type of attack, and more about the strength of the attack.



That's _one _interpretation.
There are two possibilities interpretations here. Suppose that a haki of level 1 is exactly enough to block attacks of level 1. On one interpretation, a haki of level 1 is exactly enough to block _all _attacks of level 1, because it's just strong enough to do it. On the other interpretation, a haki of level 1 would block blunt attacks of level 1 but would need to be some level higher to block cutting attacks of level 1 (because somehow the way cutting attacks deal damage is better). I don't see any reason to prefer either one of these interpretations; both are possible given the evidence I pointed out.

But this is a side issue. My point was that simply that If Luffy takes hits (in a sense which means he failed to block, made a mistake, etc) then he'll simply suffer more problematic damage. One example of this: think back to Katakuri's fight with Luffy. Luffy took many hits in the face from Katakuri, but none of them put him down. But you can see how if Kata used his spear on Luffy's head successfully then he would have been put down?


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## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2022)

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jan 19, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I was clearly saying the bolded, yes, which in effect means that given Luffy's current arsenal and feats Akainu's attacks are more dangerous to him than Kaido's. But the stuff about me saying Luffy's haki can't block magma under any circumstances or that he can't defend his feet and face with advanced haki came from you, not me. I only _meant_ that Luffy will be punished more for his mistakes.


That Luffy would either die or have his feet incinerated are pretty clear extremes that don't suggest that he'd simply be punished more for mistakes. Especially when the example you provided was one where Luffy actually defended with haki. I get that your point wasn't that extreme now, I guess. But to put that misunderstanding on me when you said that Luffy would either die or be maimed if he came into contact with magma? Eh...



YellowCosmos said:


> And you can clearly see that Whitebeard's wounds in the battle don't match the list of injuries he received according to the final tally: "267 sword wounds, 152 bullets and 46 cannon blasts". Most of those wounds were not portrayed as significant and were never depicted after the fact at any point during the war.


In this case WB's body was just so bloody and damaged that you could hardly make out any detailed wounds. There's a big difference between that, and WB having clean body at the moment of his heart attack.


YellowCosmos said:


> The fact he was untouched at the moment of his heart attack is neither here not there. Not sure what all this is about. Whitebeard and Akainu began fighting in Chapter 567 and he had a heart attack in chapter 568; neither of them had any visible injuries from each other at that point. Either you assume that Oda didn't bother depicting insignificant injuries (that what we saw skipped some things) or that neither of them injured the other at that point (that Oda didn't skip anything). In the former case, your point is moot. In the latter case, you have an encounter which is so short as to be unrepresentative (we've seen how long top tiers can fight in multiple cases), which makes your point just as moot. Whitebeard having a heart attack can also be a credit to Akainu. That heart attack was either a massive coincidence or caused by the strain of fighting Akainu. In the former case, all it does is make Whitebeard unlucky. In the latter case, it's an opening created in part by Akainu's strength.


Surely you can see how it's a huge reach to try and attribute a literal heart attack to Akainu's prowess as if the handicap wouldn't still be a product of WB's illness even if it came about through the strain of his fight. Know you only said "in part", but it's still pretty egregious to treat it like a positive feat for Akainu. The bar is incredibly low if pushing an already sick WB in such a relatively short exchange to have a heart attack is meant to be hype.

My point is clearly the latter, and even though the exchange was pretty short I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's "unrepresentative"  because the stamina top tiers have doesn't really mean they can't touch each other in short fights. I mean, we saw Luffy hit Kaido moments after engaging him. Even now Luffy & Kaido are hitting each other more or less evenly. Which is why I've been saying that Akainu not making any progress in the fight without the heart attack doesn't speak well for him relative to the person he's matched against. We've actually seen Luffy compete more closely against Kaido than Akainu did against WB, and this was meant to be an example of that.


YellowCosmos said:


> No, I'm asking what it implies for Luffy's fight with Akainu.


As myself and others have already articulated in earlier points, WB was already weakened even without the heart attacks. Which is why I've been saying it doesn't speak well for Akainu that he wasn't able to injure WB before the heart attacks in spite of that.

Also as you've already acknowledged, WB suffered his first heart attack shortly after engaging with Akainu. Flipping the argument really shouldn't help you in this case.


YellowCosmos said:


> It's common sense that ignores the uncommon abilities of top tiers. I'm not saying he got the injury in the beginning, but there's plenty of room between the middle and end (like the eighth or ninth day) in which Akainu could have inflicted that injury, swinging the fight in his favour. Aokiji can obviously make a prosthesis and he'll still remain a logia, so I don't see why we should say he had to receive the injury at the end.


Losing a literal body part is a pretty severe disadvantage even as a logia. Akainu wouldn't necessarily just allow Aokiji to make a prosthetic right away, and as we've seen with Ace, being a logia doesn't allow you to rejuvenate from injuries like that. The argument assumes Akainu couldn't capitalize on such an extreme injury enough to decide the fight against an opponent he was otherwise evenly matched it. Does that really make sense to you?


YellowCosmos said:


> I'm not interested in discussing that evidence. There have been twenty billion Admirals vs Yonkou debates on this forum. Go through to them if you want and assume I agree with the good arguments for Admirals = Yonkou in them. I get that evidence doesn't convince you, but it convinces me. Agree to disagree.


You're weird for this one. I started posting here like a month ago. Pretty ridiculous to insist that evidence won't convince me when you refuse to either actually provide your own, or hear anything that conflicts with what you already believe. What an arrogant stance.


YellowCosmos said:


> Actually, it's not clearly more powerful. It would be clearly more powerful if Sentoumaru's larger barrier failed to do what Luffy's barrier did. At this point, you don't know what's more powerful because you just don't have have the relevant information.


... You're not seriously arguing that Sentomaru could potentially block one of Hybrid Kaido's drunken Gundari Meteor Shower attacks? This is Sentoumaru we're referring to. The guy with the axe.


YellowCosmos said:


> There isn't any evidence that size correlates to strength (beyond the fact that size and scale of attacks is typically used to hype the difference between weaker and stronger attacks in One Piece and many other shounen), which is why I pointed out an assumption was required. But there _also_ isn't any evidence that it doesn't correlate to strength; the opposing view also requires an assumption (one that's less plausible in my view, but whatever). Without any clear reason to prefer one of these assumptions, we're not in a position to say Aokiji's haki isn't stronger than Luffy's, which means we're not in a position to say that Akainu's attacks don't have a chance of breaking through Luffy's haki.


There being a presumed lack of evidence for either side doesn't mean you can arbitrarily push for a character you favor to be as strong as you want them to be based on some preconceived notion. Especially when there's plenty evidence of the contrary in One Piece, and many other shounen.

I can't just assume that Coby can presently compete with Luffy simply because he has no positive or negative feats that'd either definitively prove or disprove the argument because you actually need to provide support for your power scaling, and things you believe in general. This reasoning of yours doesn't slide unless you intend to just pass off your argument as some fanciful speculation.

Though honestly this argument should've just ended the moment you decided you didn't want to actually provide any evidence for your belief on Akainu's standing.


YellowCosmos said:


> That's _one _interpretation.
> There are two possibilities interpretations here. Suppose that a haki of level 1 is exactly enough to block attacks of level 1. On one interpretation, a haki of level 1 is exactly enough to block _all _attacks of level 1, because it's just strong enough to do it. On the other interpretation, a haki of level 1 would block blunt attacks of level 1 but would need to be some level higher to block cutting attacks of level 1 (because somehow the way cutting attacks deal damage is better). I don't see any reason to prefer either one of these interpretations; both are possible given the evidence I pointed out.
> 
> But this is a side issue. My point was that simply that If Luffy takes hits (in a sense which means he failed to block, made a mistake, etc) then he'll simply suffer more problematic damage. One example of this: think back to Katakuri's fight with Luffy. Luffy took many hits in the face from Katakuri, but none of them put him down. But you can see how if Kata used his spear on Luffy's head successfully then he would have been put down?


Problem with this example is that Luffy's haki wasn't strong enough to stop Katakuri's attacks in general. Best he could do is mitigate the blunt damage, and even then it didn't work well for him, so naturally a piercing attack would be more lethal even if it didn't have a type advantage.

We have, however, seen Luffy completely block cutting/piercing attacks that were imbued with haki stronger than his own when he fought Cracker and Doflamingo.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> *Spoiler*: __


This looks like something a teenager on their 4th try of Microsoft Paint would come up with. Yikes. Big miss.


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## YellowCosmos (Jan 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> That Luffy would either die or have his feet incinerated are pretty clear extremes that don't suggest that he'd simply be punished more for mistakes. Especially when the example you provided was one where Luffy actually defended with haki. I get that your point wasn't that extreme now, I guess. But to put that misunderstanding on me when you said that Luffy would either die or be maimed if he came into contact with magma? Eh...



You've consistently put arguments I don't endorse into my mouth, so it's mostly on you, yes. Granted, my post was low-effort, but you could have asked for clarification instead of making assumptions about arguments I didn't make explicit.



Chip Skylark said:


> In this case WB's body was just so bloody and damaged that you could hardly make out any detailed wounds. There's a big difference between that, and WB having clean body at the moment of his heart attack.



If you'd look at all the places where he actually received wounds, you'd know that isn't entirely true. The same applies to a multitude of other encounters in the manga.



Chip Skylark said:


> Know you only said "in part", but it's still pretty egregious to treat it like a positive feat for Akainu.



Your post lacked reasons that explain why it isn't a positive feat or why it is a huge reach. It is a positive feat for Akainu, just as Rayleigh wheezing against Kizaru is a positive feat for Kizaru. They might not be _significant _feats when you're looking at the whole repertoire of feats - with that I agree - but they're still positive ones.



Chip Skylark said:


> lipping the argument really shouldn't help you in this case.



I don't endorse the flipped argument.



Chip Skylark said:


> WB was already weakened even without the heart attacks. Which is why I've been saying it doesn't speak well for Akainu that he wasn't able to injure WB before the heart attacks in spite of that.



For your point to matter, you'd have to establish that there was a _significant _difference between Whitebeard's offensive and defensive capabilities and other top tiers _before_ he had his heart attack. Weakened or not, Whitebeard was still a top tier.

And I'd like to point out that you don't actually have any evidence that anyone else would have damaged him given the same amount of time after Squardo's stab. Why do you think current Luffy or Kaido or someone else could have done it or done better in circumstances in which they didn't want to destroy their base/allies? (The last bit is rather important, since Akainu was complaining about the damage Whitebeard was doing to Marineford and Whitebeard was telling him to defend it).



Chip Skylark said:


> Losing a literal body part is a pretty severe disadvantage even as a logia. Akainu wouldn't necessarily just allow Aokiji to make a prosthetic right away, and as we've seen with Ace, being a logia doesn't allow you to rejuvenate from injuries like that. The argument assumes Akainu couldn't capitalize on such an extreme injury enough to decide the fight against an opponent he was otherwise evenly matched it. Does that really make sense to you?



Yes, it makes sense. I see no reason to think a statement like "Akainu would have capitalised on such an extreme injury if he inflicted it" is true. For all you know, they damaged each other at the same time (Akainu has significant scars from the battle as well) and in the time it took Akainu to recover, Aokiji also recovered as best as he could.



Chip Skylark said:


> You're weird for this one. I started posting here like a month ago. Pretty ridiculous to insist that evidence won't convince me when you refuse to either actually provide your own, or hear anything that conflicts with what you already believe. What an arrogant stance.



It's neither weird nor arrogant. I've seen enough posts from you to guess that you're not likely to agree with me (I can link you to some if you'd like). Admirals vs Yonkou debates are extremely predictable and long-winded, so I don't expect anything new that I haven't argued against before. I'm just not in the mood for it, sorry. If you think you have arguments that are _new, _go ahead and utilise them but don't expect me to engage with them unless they're actually new.



Chip Skylark said:


> ... You're not seriously arguing that Sentomaru could potentially block one of Hybrid Kaido's drunken Gundari Meteor Shower attacks? This is Sentoumaru we're referring to. The guy with the axe.



No, I was clearly and seriously arguing that you don't have the relevant information to judge one way or another. When did Sentoumaru try his barrier haki against a top tier? I don't think he's taken an attack from a post-TS level character. You don't know how strong his haki really is, because it's only been tested against pre-TS characters. All you know is that he has an advanced form of CoA (and you can't even be sure of that since Oda may retcon that).

There's no evidence he can block any one of Kaido's attacks. _That's obvious_. But there's no evidence to think he can't (since he hasn't failed) and _some _evidence that should make you doubt random claims about the level of his barriers. (He bragged that he has the world's best defence; why?). Is his barrier haki as strong as Hyogoro's? Is as it as strong as Zoro's? Is it as strong as Luffy's? How is it possible for you to tell?



Chip Skylark said:


> I can't just assume that Coby can presently compete with Luffy simply because he has no positive or negative feats that'd either definitively prove or disprove the argument because you actually need to provide support for your power scaling, and things you believe in general. This reasoning of yours doesn't slide unless you intend to just pass off your argument as some fanciful speculation.



The cases aren't analogous and you're not characterising my argument properly.

I'm pointing out that you're not in a position to say that Luffy's haki is as strong as Akainu's or Aokiji's, _because you don't know whether the size of a barrier is correlated its strength._ Remember, you're the one who said that Akainu's performance against Aokiji "", that is, that a character such as Luffy would not take injuries like that. But Aokiji _did _and unless you can show his haki isn't stronger than Luffy's, then Aokiji vs Akainu doesn't prove otherwise.

My original point barely had anything to do with haki.



Chip Skylark said:


> Problem with this example is that Luffy's haki wasn't strong enough to stop Katakuri's attacks in general. Best he could do is mitigate the blunt damage, and even then it didn't work well for him, *so naturally a piercing attack would be more lethal even if it didn't have a type advantage.*



Which is very similar to my original point about Akainu's attacks...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> This looks like something a teenager on their 4th try of Microsoft Paint would come up with. Yikes. Big miss.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 19, 2022)

Take a week off. You’re clearly burnt out posting this weak shit.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Take a week off. You’re clearly burnt out posting this weak shit.



*Yawn* give me something to work with. Iam getting bored of recycling your standart garbage, i need more content to elevate your hype

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> *Yawn* give me something to work with. Iam getting bored of recycling your standart garbage, i need more content to elevate your hype


More cringe


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

MF Akainu


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## Inferno Jewls (Mar 6, 2022)

So far Mf akainu low diffs


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 6, 2022)

A myriad of strong internal destruction CoA and CoC-coating punches at super speed destroy Akainu.

Akainu's nightmare is speed and Luffy is too fast in that transformation and now he is too strong with those haki. 

Current Luffy mid/low diff and I don't even include the over kong gun.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gokou08 (Mar 6, 2022)

Yonko RedHair Shanks said:


> Current Luffy mid/low diff and I don't even include the over kong gun.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 6, 2022)

The entire island will smell like burnt rubber for 3 years.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> So far Mf akainu low diffs


No, its atleast high diff


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Yonko RedHair Shanks said:


> A myriad of strong internal destruction CoA and CoC-coating punches at super speed destroy Akainu.
> 
> Akainu's nightmare is speed and Luffy is too fast in that transformation and now he is too strong with those haki.
> 
> Current Luffy mid/low diff and I don't even include the over kong gun.


lol


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Luffy is currently going toe to toe with the person viewed as the strongest alive. What makes you think Akainu is on Luffy's level?
> 
> Haki? Luffy by a mile
> Speed? Luffy
> ...


Kaido is severely weakened right now so it isnt a great feat ,remember kaido has been fighting non stop sinse the raid started.

haki:luffy only edges him out because of aCOC.
speed:luffy
strength:akainu
power:akainu of course ,his devil fruit has been stated to be the strongest offensive DF in the verse.

Akainu wins high to extreme diff


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 6, 2022)

Akainu mid/high-diffs current fresh Luffy


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Akainu mid/high-diffs current fresh Luffy


What makes you think its a mid diff for akainu? Explain


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> What makes you think its a mid diff for akainu? Explain


aCoC alone isnt enough, and Luffy has no awakening yet
he also runs out of G4 quickly

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> aCoC alone isnt enough, and Luffy has no awakening yet
> he also runs out of G4 quickly


His aCoC is strong enough to match kaido's ,in G4 it would be even more stronger so Akainu wont mid diff luffy ,its atleast high diff and remember this is MF akainu not fleet admiral, but i agree luffy not having enough stamina.


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> aCoC alone isnt enough, and Luffy has no awakening yet
> he also runs out of G4 quickly


He doesn’t need G4 to beat Mf akainu.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

arv993 said:


> He doesn’t need G4 to beat Mf akainu


lol he cant even beat akainu with G4


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> lol he cant even beat akainu with G4


MF akainu was taken out by two hits. Luffy with conquerors haki and FS will bulldoze him well enough to a weakened state. G4 will be used as an optional finisher.

Luffy is faster, has better Coo, better adcoc. He has the definite edge in this fight.


Kaido is better than MF akainu. Luffy is giving kaido the fight of his life.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (Mar 6, 2022)

Luffy to me. Akainu skipped 2 chapters after 2 multiple city block level punches.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Mar 6, 2022)

My god.Send. The. Fucking. Rapture.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Luffy to me. Akainu skipped 2 chapters after 2 multiple city block level punches.


Bro prime oden got one shoted against young kaido when he was distracted,while akainu was taken offgaurd by whitebeard which gave him an edge in that encounter and then got hit by whitebeards strongest attack and still got up after 2 chapters and went after luffy and fought WB commanders.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

arv993 said:


> MF akainu was taken out by two hits. Luffy with conquerors haki and FS will bulldoze him well enough to a weakened state. G4 will be used as an optional finisher.
> 
> Luffy is faster, has better Coo, better adcoc. He has the definite edge in this fight.
> 
> ...


Oden was taken out by 1 hit from young non-hybrid kaido, so this means oden is fodder


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bro prime oden got one shoted against young kaido when he was distracted,while akainu was taken offgaurd by whitebeard which gave him an edge in that encounter and then got hit by whitebeards strongest attack and still got up after 2 chapters and went after luffy and fought WB commanders.


Oden isn’t luffy, he has lower durability and akainu isn’t kaido he would be put to sleep easier given his Mf feats. He lost that encounter in a fight where someone won’t let you see another day he would have been beheaded.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bro prime oden got one shoted against young kaido when he was distracted,while akainu was taken offgaurd by whitebeard which gave him an edge in that encounter and then got hit by whitebeards strongest attack and still got up after 2 chapters and went after luffy and fought WB commanders.


kaido has always been a beast physically, moreso than almost dead WB. 
WB's strongest attack destroyed the plaza, which was a mere part of a small island. That's the dc necessary to have Akainu bloody even in his ass. Current Luffy SKKG is miles ahead of those town level punches. Now a healthy oldbeard would've been something else when it comes to AP.


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Oden was taken out by 1 hit from young non-hybrid kaido, so this means oden is fodder


No one said akainu is a fodder but mf akainu is not kaido or big mom he can’t take that kind of punishment and get up instantly. In a pure 1 v 1 fight he would lose.


It’s like you fail to see people have different attributes. Akainu and oden have really high AP. Akainu has good durability but not at BM or kaido’s level.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> kaido has always been a beast physically, moreso than almost dead WB.
> WB's strongest attack destroyed the plaza, which was a mere part of a small island. That's the dc necessary to have Akainu bloody even in his ass. Current Luffy SKKG is miles ahead of those town level punches. Now a healthy oldbeard would've been something else when it comes to AP.


When WB fought akainu he was at his best in the war because he was so enraged that he ignored his pain and sickness and got a clean cheap shot on akainu , even then akainu got his shit together and took half of WB face. This is luffy level durability . 
People forget that luffy is fighting kaido for the 3 or 4 time and every time he heals and rests before going into battle once again ,while kaido gets weaker every time as he is fighting constantly and lifting onigashima.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> When WB fought akainu *he was at his best* in the war because he was so enraged that he ignored his pain and sickness and got a clean cheap shot on akainu , even then akainu got his shit together and took half of WB face. *This is luffy level durability* .
> People forget that luffy is fighting kaido for the 3 or 4 time and every time he heals and rests before going into battle once again ,while kaido gets weaker every time as he is fighting constantly and lifting onigashima.


Bold is false, first of all, he couldn't be at his best, due to his initial form, like in the first place.
Also, the cheapshot from WB was a slap back from the cheap shot coming from Akainu earlier. Akainu was also truly enraged and he still lost the exchange, hence his frustration after and him literally jumping at every demifodder he could find.

As for him having Luffy level durability, that's the true definition of being wrong. The guy screamed like a maniac and lost a ton of blood from 2 attacks that were really not much when it comes to AP. I know that might sadden you or others, but those attacks were city block level.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2022)

Akainu was just a better fighter, even at that time. 

His magma fists and Ryuusei Kazan will be more than enough to match Luffy's punches or attacks in G4. 

He's also a bigger tank, has better stamina, is arguably just as physically strong if not stronger, has more combat training, superior mastery over his devil fruit, and is at least just as fast if he scales to his colleagues in that regard. 

Oda admitted he didn't use anywhere near close to everything he had planned for Marineford. That arc was 10 years old, before the Basics of Haki were even elaborated on. 

Still, Akainu just has better physical stats. 

MF Akainu wins, high difficulty.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Bold is false, first of all, he couldn't be at his best, due to his initial form, like in the first place.
> Also, the cheapshot from WB was a slap back from the cheap shot coming from Akainu earlier. Akainu was also truly enraged and he still lost the exchange, hence his frustration after and him literally jumping at every demifodder he could find.
> 
> As for him having Luffy level durability, that's the true definition of being wrong. The guy screamed like a maniac and lost a ton of blood from 2 attacks that were really not much when it comes to AP. I know that might sadden you or others, but those attacks were city block level.


Scale of the attack had nothing to do with its power that time because it was mostly internal damage.As i have already told you that whitebeard's cheap shot gave him big advantage because even top tiers after getting cheap shotted gets knocked out . what i mean by old WB being at his best at that time is that he was even unable to protect his ship while getting destroyed by akainu and was getting constant heart attacks but when ace was killed he got so enraged that he taped into his prime (meaning he ignored his sickness and went after akainu whith everything he had)


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## Duhul10 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Scale of the attack had nothing to do with its power that time because it was mostly internal damage.As i have already told you that whitebeard's cheap shot gave him big advantage because even top tiers after getting cheap shotted gets knocked out . what i mean by old WB being at his best at that time is that he was even unable to protect his ship while getting destroyed by akainu and was getting constant heart attacks but when ace was killed he got so enraged that he taped into his prime (meaning he ignored his sickness and went after akainu whith everything he had)


BM didn't get KO'd after being cheapshotted by a low toptier.

When it comes to the damage, your guess is as good as mine when it comes to that "massive internal damage", which in BB's case could only make him scream. What's funnier is that you mention internal damage, although there was great emphasis on those destroyed buildings, funny, huh?


LoL, stopped at "taped into his prime"...I'm clearly debating a big Akainu fanboy, with all due respect...


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> BM didn't get KO'd after being cheapshotted by a low toptier.
> 
> When it comes to the damage, your guess is as good as mine when it comes to that "massive internal damage", which in BB's case could only make him scream. What's funnier is that you mention internal damage, although there was great emphasis on those destroyed buildings, funny, huh?
> 
> ...


Bro i fucking hate akainu.
what WB used on BB was no way near what he used on akainu.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bro i fucking hate akainu


I seriously doubt it, there's a difference between being a fanboy of a character as personality/background/characteristics, strength, or both, you saying Akainu faced primebeard, would put you into the 2nd category


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I seriously doubt it, there's a difference between being a fanboy of a character as personality/background/characteristics, strength, or both, you saying Akainu faced primebeard, would put you into the 2nd category


What i meant by his prime was when he was healthy but still old.,not when he was younger

Reactions: Informative 1


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

I think luffy right now is equal to kizaru ,who is a little bit weaker than akainu.but match ups do matter so now i can see it going either way.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

This is not a durability match , so i still side with akainu since he has much more stamina than luffy right now.and akainu has the strongest offensive df in the verse right now.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 6, 2022)

Lol you'd think Sakazuki was Kaido the way his fan boys wank him despite being forced to kid crawl his way through MF after Newgate gave him a what for. Oda shows when a character tanks a very strong attack very well. He's done so repeatedly with the Yonko this arc who pop back up asking for more near instantly. Sakazuki fell into a hole and didn't pop out for several chapters.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Lol you'd think Sakazuki was Kaido the way his fan boys wank him despite being forced to kid crawl his way through MF after Newgate gave him a what for. Oda shows when a character tanks a very strong attack very well. He's done so repeatedly with the Yonko this arc who pop back up asking for more near instantly. Sakazuki fell into a hole and didn't pop out for several chapters.


As i said durability isnt the only deciding factor here. Akainu's main power is in his DF.we already saw what laws and kidds df awekenings did to big mom so i doubt luffy will tank all of akainu's attack . Plz dont ignore luffy coming back the 3rd time after resting and eating to fight kaido.if akainu fought kaido with that much help and second chances kaido would have lost by now.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> As i said durability isnt the only deciding factor here. Akainu's main power is in his DF.we already saw what laws and kidds df awekenings did to big mom so i doubt luffy will tank all of akainu's attack . Plz dont ignore luffy coming back the 3rd time after resting and eating to fight kaido.if akainu fought kaido with that much help and second chances kaido would have lost by now.


Luffy doesn’t need as much AP to put down akainu. The first few times luffy went down he didn’t even have adcoc.

Luffy incurred so much unnecessary damage before he leveled up. Him fresh now is completely different than early rooftop luffy.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Luffy doesn’t need as much AP to put down akainu. The first few times luffy went down he didn’t even have adcoc.


If luffy can use G4+aCoC then i can see him winning , which he likely could so now i am siding with luffy.


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## God sl4yer (Mar 6, 2022)

Lets not forget kaido wasnt using his future sight this entire time,meaning he was holding back a llittle and could have dodged luffy's attacks , so its safe to assume akainu had future sight as well and he would dodge majority of his advCoC punches until luffy goes into G4.


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## arv993 (Mar 6, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Lets not forget kaido wasnt using his future sight this entire time,meaning he was holding back a llittle and could have dodged luffy's attacks , so its safe to assume akainu had future sight as well and he would dodge majority of his advCoC punches until luffy goes into G4.


That’s a stretch. Not every top tier can use it like katakuri. In this matchup we use feats not hypothetical powers they may/may not have.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## God sl4yer (Mar 7, 2022)

arv993 said:


> That’s a stretch. Not every top tier can use it like katakuri. In this matchup we use feats not hypothetical powers they may/may not have.


_even then 
its a high to extreme diff for luffy ,no less.
i changed my mind, i give the vote to luffy now.he is overpowering kaido with G4 and can now even change his G4 forms during the fight, this solves his stamina issues._


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