# Hokage Naruto(base) vs Hashirama (base)



## tkpirate (Oct 25, 2015)

Location:-Momoshiki's planet

Distance:-20m

Mindset:-intent to kill

Restrictions:-both fighters will be in base

Who wins?


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Hashirama lowest low diff , Naruto FRS aren't doing anything to Mokuton monsters , Hashirama will overpower him with his much lager chakra quantity and Mokuton Jutsu , it will certainly be a one Shot , Naruto must use Kurama and Senjutsu chakra if he wants to beat him .


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2015)

Base Naruto countered Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku. 

Ten-ish later his Chōōdama Rasengan sent a high tier Ōtsutsuki into orbit.


Hashirama isn't winning unless he resorts to sleep powder or his Bringer-of-Darkness genjutsu.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Base Naruto countered Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku.
> 
> Ten-ish later his Chōōdama Rasengan sent a high tier Ōtsutsuki into orbit.
> 
> ...


This.

Base Naruto and Base Sasuke with Rikudo powers are low-end god tiers.

Base Hashirama is nowhere near that level.

Naruto blows away his Mokuton constructs with 50+ FRS and sends Hashirama into orbit with Rasengan.


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## Trojan (Oct 25, 2015)

Naruto fodderstomps neg difficult. 

It might be low-difficult if he decided to toy with Hashirama before he murder him...


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Base Naruto countered Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku.


Never happened.

btw blasting someone into orbit isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds.


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2015)

> Never happened.



[YOUTUBE]zDSjM-c2inM[/YOUTUBE]

3:32



> btw blasting someone into orbit isn't nearly as impressive as it sounds.



Means a lot when the recipient of aforementioned attack is leagues ahead of Hashirama in all combat-related stats.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

Are you blind? or intentionally overlooking naruto concentrating his shroud onto his arm to block that?

Question is, did said rasengan kill him, or did the vaccum of space do the job?
and how badly was he injured beforehand

because the energy needed to blast someone to space is, at max city-block level
which is something post-skip naruto can also do.


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2015)

> Are you blind? or intentionally overlooking naruto concentrating his shroud onto his arm to block that?



He's in base.

All he did was exit KSCM and focus that chakra into his fist to protect his arm from Toneri's Golden Wheel Explosion. He doesn't need to enter a mode to channel a comparable quantity of chakra into his arm. 

Or are we counting partial transformations and chakra augmented limbs as modes now?




> and how badly was he injured beforehand


He got rejuvenated by some choad's weapon, was hit by Boruto's mini rasengan, yet still went strong. 



> Question is, did said rasengan kill him, or did the vaccum of space do the job?
> 
> because the energy needed to blast someone to space is, at max city-block level
> which is something post-skip naruto can also do.



The fuck are you on about? 

_If_ the COR that ended Momo hits Hashi, he's going bye-bye. End of story.


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## Zuhaitz (Oct 25, 2015)

That can't be considered base. He moved the normal shroud and concentrated all that chakra on his arms.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Yeah Naruto was in base but since we don't know what kind of chakra was he is concentrating in his arm logically it's Senjutsu+Kurama at a really high compression level to counter a moon cutting attack level .


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## Trojan (Oct 25, 2015)

Then Hashirama attacks can't be considered in base either because he always uses SM chakra.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Euh , no Hashirama fought Kurama just using his base chakra .


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## Trojan (Oct 25, 2015)

Nah, even in base he has SM chakra, so it's not base. 
there is no SM marks on Hashirama
1

but when Madara absorbed his chakra
1

So (tho I think it's an asspull) Hashirama is using the natural energy regardless...


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## tkpirate (Oct 25, 2015)

Do people think Hashi can survive the attack that overpowered Momoshiki's(a god tier)attack?


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Why was he suddenly becoming so strong when he was fitghing Madara in the valley of the end . At most , he was using very low Senjutsu quantity against Kurama , it's nearly not changing anything of his base power , it's just like the difference between BM Naruto and BSM Naruto , Naruto's Senjutsu is nothing compared to Kurama's huge power because he can't gather large quantity just using his base chakra .


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## Zuhaitz (Oct 25, 2015)

It would actually make sense that base Hashirama has unbalanced natural energy in him all the time.

He is basically a tree man, and trees are the perfect definition of Sage based on the explanation Naruto heard. Something that doesn't move and absorbs the energy from the sun, the earth, the water and the air.... Trees are sages...


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## Blu-ray (Oct 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Then Hashirama attacks can't be considered in base either because he always uses SM chakra.


Base is whatever a person's passive state is.



Kyu said:


> Base Naruto countered Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku.
> 
> Ten-ish later his Chōōdama Rasengan sent a high tier Ōtsutsuki into orbit.
> 
> ...





Kyu said:


> He's in base.
> 
> All he did was exit KSCM and focus that chakra into his fist to protect his arm from Toneri's Golden Wheel Explosion. He doesn't need to enter a mode to channel a comparable quantity of chakra into his arm.
> 
> Or are we counting partial transformations and chakra augmented limbs as modes now?


Don't see why it's not base. He didn't exit the mode, he focused it entirely to one part of his body. Why should Kurama mode count as a mode, but not this?

Eh, either way it doesn't matter. Naruto just spams FRS and ends him. The only way Naruto loses is if he gets bunshin feinted.


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2015)

What's with the stomp threads these days? Naruto eats Hashirama alive.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

It's base Naruto no Kurama chakra and no Senjutsu .


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's base Naruto no Kurama chakra and no Senjutsu .



Being adult base Naruto, still fast enough to blitz Hashirama or to destroy him with guided Rasenshuriken spam.

If it was Shippuden or War Arc base Naruto, then yeah, he would be negged by Hashirama. But after Rikudo power  ups and years or training, Naruto and Sasuke's base levels increased marvellously.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Base adult Naruto isn't that strong , his Sage War Arc version shits on him so hardly ... Plus , base Naruto will never be faster than the likes of Darui , base Gai , V2 Raikage shits on him if he is close ... Hashirama is easily at least at his level of speed , must of people are exagerating his level ,

Base naruto hasn't Rikudou chakra naturally , otherwise , yes he stomps Hashirama hardly .


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Base adult Naruto isn't that strong , his Sage War Arc version shits on him so hardly ... Plus , base Naruto will never be faster than the likes of Darui , base Gai , V2 Raikage shits on him if he is close ... Hashirama is easily at least at his level of speed , must of people are exagerating his level ,
> 
> Base naruto hasn't Rikudou chakra naturally , otherwise , yes he stomps Hashirama hardly .



But base Naruto has Rikudo chakra enpowering him passively, even if he is not using a mode or there aren't external signs of that. Just as Sasuke and Kakashi were enpowered by Rikudo chakra, but there was no external sign of that.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Well , I don't know if Naruto still have Rikudo chakra enhancing him since we don't know if it's related to Rikudou's hand mark or not , so we have two possible scenarios :
Naruto has Rikudo Chakra : he wins .
He hasn't : he will severly loses .


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## Mercurial (Oct 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , I don't know if Naruto still have Rikudo chakra enhancing him since we don't know if it's related to Rikudou's hand mark or not , so we have two possible scenarios :
> Naruto has Rikudo Chakra : he wins .
> He hasn't : he will severly loses .



I agree. The fact is that he most probably retaines that.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 25, 2015)

people are biased as ever i see. 


narutos_ "space rasengan"_ destroyed the shinju stump, which is dwarfed by hashiramas mokujin in size and durability. 
hashirama can either end the match with the flower world, or he can make the mokujin step on naruto.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2015)

What some rather dull people fail to realize is that the Rasengan's greatest feat is not that fact it blew up the Shinju stump or sent someone into orbit but the fact that it killed a god tier.

Hashirama in base is no where near a god tier, he gets hit by that, it vaporizes him and whatever construct he has out.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 25, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> What some rather dull people fail to realize is that the Rasengan's greatest feat is not that fact it blew up the Shinju stump or sent someone into orbit *but the fact that it killed a god tier.*
> 
> Hashirama in base is no where near a god tier, he gets hit by that, it vaporizes him and whatever construct he has out.




The only thing that is dull here are your ingenious comparisons. It's funny. You have the feats to try and make a case, yet you decide to point focus towards something that makes your entire post sound foolish.

Killing a god tier isn't a power feat for the jutsu unless said god tier is extremely durable, and Momoshiki's durability feats that'd allow you to make that claim are nonexistent. If I used your logic, I'd be saying that a guy who vaporized Sasuke's body with a regular Bijuu Dama vaporizes Madara's Susanoo with a Bijuu Dama because "lol god tier".


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

you guys are comedy gold
how the flying fuck can using kurama and sage chakra be considered base.
Naruto has no speed and durability feats worth mentioning in base.
Hashi's wood easily packs enough punch to put him down and hashi has vastly superior AoE and more abilities than nardo.

Base nardo was manhandled by base toneri
is base toneri god-tier now?

People need to stop letting the power inflation go up to their heads.


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## tkpirate (Oct 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The only thing that is dull here are your ingenious comparisons. It's funny. You have the feats to try and make a case, yet you decide to point focus towards something that makes your entire post sound foolish.
> 
> Killing a god tier isn't a power feat for the jutsu unless said god tier is extremely durable, and Momoshiki's durability feats that'd allow you to make that claim are nonexistent. If I used your logic, I'd be saying that a guy who vaporized Sasuke's body with a regular Bijuu Dama vaporizes Madara's Susanoo with a Bijuu Dama because "lol god tier".



well,it's actually a good point.
the durability feats Momoshiki would have though tanking punches from same Naruto who one shoted Toneri and his sword with a punch.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> well,it's actually a good point.
> the durability feats Momoshiki would have though tanking punches from same Naruto who one shoted Toneri and his sword with a punch.



Naruto focused all his power into a single fist to counter Toneri. Naruto did nothing of the sort against Momoshiki so I have no idea how you are correlating the two instances.


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## tkpirate (Oct 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Naruto focused all his power into a single fist to counter Toneri. Naruto did nothing of the sort against Momoshiki so I have no idea how you are correlating the two instances.



well,though it's assumption,but would it seem like a reasonable assumption to you if I say the punches Momoshiki tanked had 1% power of the punch that destroyed Toneri's sword?


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2015)

Naruto taxes the hell out of Hashi. Things like this should be obvious by now.?


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> well,though it's assumption,but would it seem like a reasonable assumption to you if I say the punches Momoshiki tanked had 1% power of the punch that destroyed Toneri's sword?



Sure it'd be reasonable, doesn't make it a good feat. He doesn't need to come close to matching Toneri's sword considering Toneri's blade isn't focused enough in one specific area to prevent Naruto from running through it.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 25, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> people are biased as ever i see.
> 
> 
> narutos_ "space rasengan"_ destroyed the shinju stump, which is dwarfed by hashiramas mokujin in size and durability.
> hashirama can either end the match with the flower world, or he can make the mokujin step on naruto.



This. Can't see how Naruto is getting around any of this without zero powerups, don't get me wrong Naruto in base isn't exactly fodder but Hashirama's base> his and it's not even close. This is base, you can forget about everything other than that, just base. Think about it for about five minutes and you realize Naruto gets shitted on.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

It's base, I debated this long and hard in the thread with him against Madara & Nagato.

Plain and simply 
>No ocular mutation
>No Bodily Cloak
> = Base Naruto 

Base Naruto blocked that moon-severing attack.

Killer Bee has also channeled his bijuu power to block attacks in base [1] [2], so even if Naruto was channeling his bijuu power- it's irrelevant. It's Base Naruto channeling it. 

That being said Base Hashirama has nothing close to the destructive power of Toneri's attack, he can't harm Base Naruto and his punches obliterate his Mokuton constructs not to mention Hashirama himself. Doesn't need his God Killing Rasengan IMO. He already defeated a chakra cloaked God with his punch, obliterating a great deal of moon rock surrounding them upon the pressured strike landing on Toneri- not the rock itself.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's base, I debated this long and hard in the thread with him against Madara & Nagato.
> 
> Plain and simply
> >No ocular mutation
> ...


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

Excellent counter Deer Lord.

Hashirama better hope Naruto's palm doesn't touch his face.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Excellent counter Deer Lord.


I suggest you'll go watch that scene again.
If you still come to the same conclusion by then, you'll might want to consider paying a visit to your local ophthalmologist. color blindness can happen to anyone.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

I've watched it, he has ocean blue human eyes, no pigmentation around them, and no cloak on his body.

He is not in a transformation. Thus, hes in base.

That is not KCM, KCSM, BM, BSM, SM, RSM, RSBM. That is Base Naruto.

If Base Naruto showed he could make a full fledged Bijuudama, it wouldn't change the fact that it is Base Naruto.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

Yes, naruto always has glowing orange hands when he punches people, it's not at all related to kurama, you're right.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've had the displeasure to debate over the internet.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

Being related to Kurama is irrelevant.

Jinchuriki can use the power of their bijuu in base. Base Killer Bee on multiple occasions is shown mutating his arm into Gyuki's to block attacks or increase his lifting strength to throw allies. He need not enter a transformation (V1, V2, Bijuu Mode) to do this. 

This is no different than Naurto channeling the chakra of Kurama into his palm.

OP didn't restrict Base Naruto from using Kurama's power.

I have no clue where you picked up the notion that Base = anything related to Bijuu is restricted for Jinchuriki.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

Redefining "base" to suit your argument huh?

Irrelevant.
This isn't what naruto did here.
He wasn't in base, he was in BSM when toneri fired that sword at him.
Naruto packed all of his BSM power into his hand to block that blast, all you need to see that is a set of eyes.
Otherwise I don't see how depowering could possibly give him an edge in this situation.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm not redefining anything. Base means the transformations of the shinobi are restricted. 

Naruto wasn't in a transformation when he blocked that attack.

I've been here far longer than you, whenever a "Base" Jinchuriki is being debated it has never been the consensus that their bijuu powers while in base were restricted.

OP has always had to deliberately state "kurama is restricted, Gyuki is restricted" as it pertains to Base Naruto or Killer Bee if they didn't want Killer Bee using tentacles, arm mutations or ink release, if they didn't want them to use partner method to combat Genjutsu, or if they wanted to considerably weaken their physical stamina/base reserves/life force/durability as a result of no longer having a bijuu integrated into their chakra pathway system and bodies.

A base Jinchuriki has a bijuu inside of them at all times, when they're shitting, fucking, eating, drinking, sleeping, fighting, and they benefit from that. In Naruto's case, that benefit now means he can channel Kurama's power through his palm while in Base.

A base Jinchuriki without a bijuu inside of them, not benefiting from their power, isn't a fucking base Jinchuriki. It's not a Jinchuriki at all. It's a regular base shinobi.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 25, 2015)

Hmmm, but does using partial Susanoo-like just Susanoo arm- does count for an Uchiha being in base then? Or does it count as full use of MS?

Or Ei not using his Raiton shroud to the max but only partially?

Or Kimimaro, Sasuke or any other CS user doing a partial transformation- like when Sasuke used to block Juugo's attack with his wing- is counting as an actual CS use or still base due to it not being a complete transformation?

How much power can one manifest to remain in base? If it does not affect the whole body then the user stays in base or when the user only channels just a bit of said power like Naruto did before he got tailed states?

I still recall how many considered Naruto when he returned from the dead with his eyes looking SM-like but without the pigment and considered Naruto to be at his base then. Does said consensus still stand?


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## David (Oct 25, 2015)

Pretty much what Arles said.

If you can't see Naruto putting his BSM chakra into his right arm, you're most likely being blinded by wank. 

In addition, why else would Naruto go to Base mode COUNTER AN ATTACK?

Do you think he'd make himself significantly weaker before clashing head-on with an enemy attack?  

That makes zero sense - the only logical conclusion is that BSM Naruto transferred his chakra into his arm, which explains everything about the scale of Naruto's attack anyways.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 25, 2015)

Basically what david said.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

> Hmmm, but does using partial Susanoo-like just Susanoo arm- does count for an Uchiha being in base then? Or does it count as full use of MS?


Nope, in order to use Susano you need Manke Sharingan for anyone other than Sage Mode Madara, and if Susano is manifested even in partial form the Manke Sharingan will appear mutating the eyes. 



> Or Ei not using his Raiton shroud to the max but only partially?


Not sure what you mean by this. Ei has never partially entered Lightning Chakra Modo. 



> Or Kimimaro, Sasuke or any other CS user doing a partial transformation like when Sasuke used to block Juugo's attack with his wing is counting as an actual CS use or still base due to it not being a complete transformation?


Nope, partial transformations with CS are known as CS1, which is when the transformation is activated and the seal pattern is released over the body. 

No curse seal user in the entire manga can use partial transformations without entering CS1. 



> How much power can one manifest to remain in base? If it does not affect the whole body then the user stays in base or when the user only channels just a bit of said power like Naruto did before he got tailed states?


Naruto's transformations are as followed:

SM
KCM
KCSM
BM
BSM
RSM
RSBM

In each of these transformations the eyes are mutated.


> I still recall how many considered Naruto when he returned from the dead with his eyes looking SM-like but without the pigment and considered Naruto to be at his base then. Does said consensus still stand?


That's Six Path Sage Mode. It's confirmed in the databook.

Naruto combined it with Kurama Chakra Mode to get the version we saw against Shinju-absorbed Judara, which equip him with Truth Seeking Balls and further increased stats.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei has never partially entered Lightning Chakra Modo.



You sure? [1]


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

That's not lightning chakra mode, that's lightning filtered into the hand of Ei, which is exactly what he did with Mei's Water Dragon.

I guess Kakashi could use partial lightning chakra mode while he was 13. Fufufu


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## Arles Celes (Oct 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nope, in order to use Susano you need Manke Sharingan for anyone other than Sage Mode Madara, and if Susano is manifest even in partial form the Manke Sharingan will appear mutating the eyes.
> 
> Nope, Ei can't even filter Raiton into his hand if he's in base.
> 
> ...



But then how Bee's partial transformations can count as "base" if he is using bijuu power to use said partial transformation? If using CS or MS does not count for partial transformations since it requires them to happen at all and its therfore not "base" then how can Bee count since he needs his bijuu for his own partial transformation too?

Also, I did not pay THAT much attention in the Last but if Naruto actually uses Kurama's power to make his arm coated in his chakra, can it count as base given how he needs bijuu power to activate it?

Can Naruto make a chakra shrouded arm had he not had Kurama?

And does Madara using Susanoo without eyes not count as using MS if he lacks eyes despite said power being an MS ability? If when he absorbed Amaterasu was him using Preta was that "base" too even though it was clearly a Rinnegan power?

Or was Itachi using Susanoo in "base" once his eyes did go blind and lost its MS design but he kept it activated nevertheless?


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 25, 2015)

> But then how Bee's partial transformations can count as "base" if he is using bijuu power to use said partial transformation? If using CS or MS does not count for partial transformations since it requires them to happen at all and its therfore not "base" then how can Bee count since he needs his bijuu for his own partial transformation too?


Tentacle release isn't a transformation or mode, it's a bijuu technique known as bijuu chakra arms which Killer Bee learned to use in Base. 

Just as Gaara learned to use Shukaku's sand techniques, including desert funeral, in base. 

What specifically are you referring to? Ink Release? Tentacles? Arm mutations? 



> Also, I did not pay THAT much attention in the Last but if Naruto actually uses Kurama's power to make his arm coated in his chakra, can it count as base given how he needs bijuu power to activate it?


Yes, that's specifically what I'm talking about. 



> Can Naruto make a chakra shrouded arm had he not had Kurama?


No. 



> And does actually Madara using Susanoo without eyes does not count as using MS if he lacks eyes despite said power being an MS ability? If when he absorbed Amaterasu was him using Preta was that "base" too even though it was clearly a Rinnegan power?


By and large Madara is an outlier. No one, certainly including you, has any logical explanation to how he was able to erect Susano without his eyes.


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## Kyu (Oct 25, 2015)

> Don't see why it's not base. He didn't exit the mode, he focused it entirely to one part of his body. Why should Kurama mode count as a mode, but not this?




[YOUTUBE]zDSjM-c2inM[/YOUTUBE]

3:46

After the chakra coating Naruto's left arm dispersed, he gathered an immense amount of chakra on his right and knocked Toneri out of Tenseigan Mode - in base. 

It clearly isn't a skill reliant on entering a mode first. It is a partial transformation.  

Naruto & Bee have demonstrated these abilities without fully entering a heightened state where _all_ of their abilities & physical attributes skyrocket, e.g., Biju Mode, V2, or KCM.



> Also, I did not pay THAT much attention in the Last but if Naruto actually uses Kurama's power to make his arm coated in his chakra, can it count as base given how he needs bijuu power to activate it?



Technically, Kurama was outside of his body at the time.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The only thing that is dull here are your ingenious comparisons. It's funny. You have the feats to try and make a case, yet you decide to point focus towards something that makes your entire post sound foolish.
> 
> Killing a god tier isn't a power feat for the jutsu unless said god tier is extremely durable, and Momoshiki's durability feats that'd allow you to make that claim are nonexistent. If I used your logic, I'd be saying that a guy who vaporized Sasuke's body with a regular Bijuu Dama vaporizes Madara's Susanoo with a Bijuu Dama because "lol god tier".


Not really at all my friend.

Momoshiki was absorbing punches from RSM Naruto and Rikudo Sauce and doing just fine. The same Naruto whom in a weaker state ripped the strongest character in the manga's arm off. If you watched the movie he was also in the Lava Golem when it got cut down by the PS-Ashura avatar. So he is plenty durable.

Certainly more durable then Hashirama here who gets one-shot more then likely.


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## tkpirate (Oct 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Sure it'd be reasonable, doesn't make it a good feat. He doesn't need to come close to matching Toneri's sword considering Toneri's blade isn't focused enough in one specific area to prevent Naruto from running through it.



just think about it again.
Toneri splits the moon is a single swing with his sword.
then tries to pierce Naruto with it,but Naruto overpowers the entire sword with his chakra conconcentrated on his hand.so we can say Naruto's hand power >Toneri's sword.it's because he overpowered the entire sword and completely destroyed it with his hand.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 25, 2015)

Naruto wins. Hashirama has became so overestimated its not even funny. Hashirama can be in Sage Mode and it'd still not make up for the speed, firepower, strength, and durability disadvantage he has on Naruto. Naruto's base form shits on Hashirama as shown in The Last and he's even stronger as Hokage.


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## LightningForce (Oct 26, 2015)

I have one question to ask NBD: Does this mean base Naruto's taijutsu and speed < base Sasuke's taijutsu and speed? Since Sasuke's base speed was on par with RSM/BSM Naruto. I always took Naruto = Sasuke at their full respective powers.

If base Naruto is restricted from using Kurama's chakra at all, then Hashirama should win. Naruto cannot get past that kind of pure firepower, not even with his homing Rasenshuriken, especially when Wood Dragon (which absorbs chakra) and Flower Tree World comes up.


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## Kyu (Oct 26, 2015)

> I have one question to ask NBD: Does this mean base Naruto's taijutsu and speed < base Sasuke's taijutsu and speed? Since Sasuke's base speed was on par with RSM/BSM Naruto. I always took Naruto = Sasuke at their full respective powers







*Spoiler*: _....and this after?_ 








Same probably applies to their adult incarnations. 

Looking back at all of their latest battles; RSM Nardo is faster on a more consistent basis. 

Sasuke is naturally faster than base Nardo. That'll likely never change. Fast enough to blitz him on foot? Wouldn't bet on it. Due to his Uzumaki lineage, Naruto has him beat in other physical aspects, so they balance each other out, as does their skill in h2h.

Rinnegan/Eternal Mangekyo are used to combat Jinchuuriki/Sage powers and vice versa.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto wins. *Hashirama has became so overestimated its not even funny.* Hashirama can be in Sage Mode and it'd still not make up for the speed, firepower, strength, and durability disadvantage he has on Naruto. Naruto's base form shits on Hashirama as shown in The Last and he's even stronger as Hokage.



he has always been, that never changed in years. 



LightningForce said:


> I have one question to ask NBD: Does this mean base Naruto's taijutsu and speed < base Sasuke's taijutsu and speed? Since Sasuke's base speed was on par with RSM/BSM Naruto. I always took Naruto = Sasuke at their full respective powers.
> 
> If base Naruto is restricted from using Kurama's chakra at all, then Hashirama should win. Naruto cannot get past that kind of pure firepower, not even with his homing Rasenshuriken, especially when Wood Dragon (which absorbs chakra) and Flower Tree World comes up.



Must be why the Wooden Dragons absorbed the FRS that Naruto used against Madara, right? 

Nothing is saving Hashirama's ass here, not even his highly overrated Buddha. The next time he sees himself will be in the space. lol


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## Deer Lord (Oct 26, 2015)

Then I guess Base Toneri is >>> TCM Toneri

much sense.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 26, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> just think about it again.
> Toneri splits the moon is a single swing with his sword.
> then tries to pierce Naruto with it,but Naruto overpowers the entire sword with his chakra conconcentrated on his hand.so we can say Naruto's hand power >Toneri's sword.it's because he overpowered the entire sword and completely destroyed it with his hand.



No, we can say that the part of Toneri's blade that Naruto's fist and fist alone had contact with is inferior to Naruto's fist. I really hope you aren't going to start arguing that a fist that didn't kill or seriously cripple Toneri is MOon Level.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 26, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Not really at all my friend.
> 
> *Momoshiki was absorbing punches from RSM Naruto and Rikudo Sauce and doing just fine.* The same Naruto whom in a weaker state ripped the strongest character in the manga's arm off. If you watched the movie he was also in the Lava Golem when it got cut down by the PS-Ashura avatar. So he is plenty durable.
> 
> Certainly more durable then Hashirama here who gets one-shot more then likely.



Punches from RSM Naruto and Rikudo Sasuke aren't shit when compared to moves like Bijuu Dama let alone the moves the people right under god tier can tank with their defenses. Same goes for him ripping Kaguya's arm off. Stop wanking every single move they make just because they are "god tier" when they are using their full powers.

And he was in it, doesn't mean he was hit directly, because he wasn't. Not to mention he was defeated after that.

Which is irrelevant to the point. More durable than Hashirama? Obviously. More durable than any of his constructs because he was taking punches from god tiers.  *FUCK *no.


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## tkpirate (Oct 26, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, we can say that the part of Toneri's blade that Naruto's fist and fist alone had contact with is inferior to Naruto's fist. I really hope you aren't going to start arguing that a fist that didn't kill or seriously cripple Toneri is MOon Level.



Naruto overpowered and destroyed the entire sword not a part of it.Naruto overpowering that technique means his power>Toneri's swordsword.you can't Overpower something completely if you're not stronger than it.this is a simple thing,don't make it complicated.
really you're using backward logic.if the punch didn't kill Toneri that doesn't mean Punch is weak.it means Toneri survived whatever power the punch had.though it did knock him out and defeated him.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Punches from RSM Naruto and Rikudo Sasuke aren't shit when compared to moves like Bijuu Dama let alone the moves the people right under god tier can tank with their defenses. Same goes for him ripping Kaguya's arm off. Stop wanking every single move they make just because they are "god tier" when they are using their full powers.


Huh? They were tearing up the landscape with just taijutsu alone. No one else but Eighth Gate Gai does that. 

And Kaguya's durability if you reread the fight is actually damned impressive. Certainly it's well above anything Hashirama could ever hope to show. But please keep trying to argue that Hashirama's Buddha is more durable then the strongest being in the manga, please.



> And he was in it, doesn't mean he was hit directly, because he wasn't. Not to mention he was defeated after that.


Isn't that a durability feat? He was still hit by the blast.



> Which is irrelevant to the point. More durable than Hashirama? Obviously. More durable than any of his constructs because he was taking punches from god tiers.  *FUCK *no.


It's been shown time and time again how tough it actually is to kill a god tier level opponent in the manga with some having near immortality (Kaguya, Juubi Jins). Momoshiki has solid durability feats against god tiers and god tier status. That alone puts him above anything Hashirama could ever hope to do.

I think we're derailing the thread at this point. Doesn't matter much anyway since it's been made pretty clear SM Hashirama isn't much of a threat to the protagonists even in their base forms. That's power inflation for you


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2015)

Pretty much, but let me fix this little thing for you



> I think we're derailing the thread at this point. Doesn't matter much anyway since it's been made pretty clear SM Hashirama isn't much of a threat to the protagonists even in their base forms. That's power inflation for you



much better.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2015)

Sasuke arguably stomps SM Hashirama more easily then Naruto looking strictly at base form though.

Hashirama has never ever shown the ability to contend with Juubito in speed (as evident by his admission and subsequent blitzing) so he certainly can't react to someone miles faster in RSM Naruto/Sasuke. He gets blind sided and this Chidori planted in his head. *[1]*

And then for the very stupid fans who think he can tank a meteor-busting Chidori to the head, there is the almighty kunai to finish the job.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2015)

It's not about that tho. 
I know that either one will fodderstomps the living shit out of Hashirama in no time, but there is still only 1 protagonist that is Narudo. 



> And then for the very stupid fans who think he can tank a meteor-busting Chidori to the head, there is the almighty kunai to finish the job.



It's Hashirama, don't be surprised on whatever his fans say.


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 26, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Huh? They were tearing up the landscape with just taijutsu alone. No one else but Eighth Gate Gai does that.



 :

Are you really going to compare them smashing portions of large rocks with their physical attacks to Gai creating craters this deep? Really now?



> And Kaguya's durability if you reread the fight is actually damned impressive. Certainly it's well above anything Hashirama could ever hope to show. But please keep trying to argue that Hashirama's Buddha is more durable then the strongest being in the manga, please.



Kaguya getting cut by Naruto's chakra arm, which is nowhere near Sasuke's Chidori, Enton Chidori, or Naruto's Yin Kurama enhanced Rasengan that they used at VoTE, which is also inferior to any Bijuu Dama. The same Bijuu Dama that Madara's PS tanks with zero damage.

Keep on trying to argue that Naruto's chakra claw cuts through PS and SS like butter. Please. 



> Isn't that a durability feat? He was still hit by the blast.


What blast? It was a blade that cut his golem and didn't even touch him.



> It's been shown time and time again how tough it actually is to kill a god tier level opponent in the manga with some having near immortality (Kaguya, Juubi Jins). Momoshiki has solid durability feats against god tiers and god tier status. That alone puts him above anything Hashirama could ever hope to do.



No, it hasn't. What has been shown is that it's impossible to kill Kaguya as she is immortal. What has been shown is that Madara falls in the same category. What has been shown is that all JJs have ridiculous regen, thus it is nigh impossible to kill them via conventional means when that is combined with their power. Nowhere in this Manga has it been shown that god tiers are tankier than things like EMS Madara's PS. Just more fanfiction from your side of the argument.



> [I think we're derailing the thread at this point. Doesn't matter much anyway since it's been made *pretty clear SM Hashirama isn't much of a threat to the protagonists even in their base forms.* That's power inflation for you







tkpirate said:


> Naruto overpowered and destroyed the entire sword not a part of it.Naruto overpowering that technique means his power>Toneri's swordsword.you can't Overpower something completely if you're not stronger than it.this is a simple thing,don't make it complicated.



No, stop trying to simplify the argument because you can't comprehend it. The Manga isn't going to dumb itself down for you. He didn't overpower Toneri's entire sword. Whatever part of his blade that Naruto's fist was touching is what was overpowered. Period. No amount of denial is going to change that.




> really you're using backward logic.if the punch didn't kill Toneri that doesn't mean Punch is weak.it means Toneri survived whatever power the punch had.though it did knock him out and defeated him.



Stop. Toneri was getting scuff marks on his body from a regular Rasengan from BSM Naruto, yet you think he can survive a MOON LEVEL ATTACK with no lasting injuries? Am I really reading this nonsense? Toneri was evading and blocking FRS with his Gudo Dama, and blocking all of Naruto's stronger attacks with his Gudo Dama yet somehow he takes a Moon Level attack with no lasting damagE? Boy oh boy.

It knocked him against the wall and deactivated his mode. He wasn't even knocked out cold.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 26, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> What some rather dull people fail to realize is that the Rasengan's greatest feat is not that fact it blew up the Shinju stump or sent someone into orbit but the fact that it killed a god tier.
> 
> Hashirama in base is no where near a god tier, he gets hit by that, it vaporizes him and whatever construct he has out.


>claims that a character that was knocked back by borutos grape rasengan is leagues more durable than the mokujin.
>questions my intelligence.


momoshikis durability doesnt even compare to ribcage susano.



also, to quell any nonsense on a blitz argument that consists of nonexistent speed feats:

shins reactions>sasukes ability to blitz.


sasukes speed=kinshiki

*Spoiler*: __ 



_Sasuke?s sprint was so fast that the average shinobi couldn?t possible hope to keep up.
*But, the two ogres kept up with him.*_




*Spoiler*: __ 



_Sasuke kept running.
Running was his duty as a ninja.
?You can?t run away!?* The giant roared, shortening the distance betwen them.*_




chojuro & kurotsuchis reactions>kinshikis and sasukes ability to blitz.

*Spoiler*: __ 



_?Haah!?
Choujuurou and Kurotsuchi launched an attack.
?You impudent ones!?
Kinshiki expanded his giant axe, and counter-attacked. *Kurotsuchi and Choujuurou nimbly evaded him.*_



sasukes speed is on the same level or greater than base naruto.

inb4 shin, chojuro & kurotsuchi>>>>>>>>hashirama in movements and reactions even in sage mode. 

the only conclusion that any sane person would come to is that the mokujin crushes naruto under its finger.


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