# The Limits of Itachi's Genjutsu



## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

My argument, for your consideration:

*Illusion Power Value* 



Nagato wondered why Kabuto was keeping them in reserve. Yet of all the combined powers of their eyes, _he specifically questions how Kabuto could pass up Itachi's illusion power._



We have the same point made again. Despite all the power between Itachi's Mangekyō and Nagato's Rinnegan, _Itachi's illusion power is specifically mentioned_ as the key ability for Kabuto.

*The Scale of his Illusion Power*



Shikaku considered Itachi capable of the impact of the White Zetsu ambush. Ao disagrees and says "not even Itachi" could achieve the combination of those factors, but even _one tenth_ of that is good.

*External Partners Are Useless* 



Itachi's genjutsu control is _undetectable to sensor teams_, let alone non-sensors. The external partner strategy is useless if Itachi employs his stealthiest control because they won't know.

*Chakra Control is Useless*



Itachi's Karasu Bunshin defeated Post-Wind Naruto.



Post-Wind Naruto had superior chakra-control to Kakashi and Minato.



Using ninjutsu with chakra manipulation beyond their level.



Chakra molding beyond his Sharingan's ability to comprehend, even.



And his level was high enough for Obito to warn Pain.

*Strategy is Useless*



Crow genjutsu was used because Naruto avoided eyes/fingers.



*Battledome Application* (post-argument)

The opponents Itachi has faced in the manga have either been defeated by his genjutsu, or have special genjutsu defenses such as mastered dojutsu, internal partners, or sage mode. 

The below ninja _do not_ have special genjutsu defenses. Can they:
A. Use chakra control capable of a _50% Rasenshuriken_?
B. Get external partners better than a _team of sensors_?
_If not, then Itachi's genjutsu will control them._


Minato
Tobirama
Kisame
3rd Raikage
Ōnoki
Mū
Orochimaru
A
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Gengetsu
Gai
Gaara
Mei
Kakuzu
​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

sorry I laughed at post wind Naruto has superior chakra control to minato and kakashi
mind proving that

gengetsu genjutsu has shown larger scale, external partners don't work and the clam must be defeated. 

btw minato couldn't achieve FRS due to chakra quantity not control. same for kakashi which seems obvious so I think u trying to  here


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry I laughed at post wind Naruto has superior chakra control to minato and kakashi
> mind proving that


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He used a jutsu requiring chakra control beyond that what Minato and Kakashi were capable, as linked above. Both Minato and Kakashi tried for elemental Rasengan and weren't capable.​



due to not enough chakra. which If you weren't trying too hard you would have noticed kakashi mentions this 

you know same way he said Naruto base chakra level is 4 times above his. and with kyuubi over 100 times

but yh lets ignore that and claim Naruto pulling off FRS is solely due to better chakra control


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Too much context distortion. Itachi's Genjutsu appears to be useless against those aware of his Genjutsu methods. Things like the finger Genjutsu work on Chunin levels.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> due to not enough chakra. which If you weren't trying too hard you would have noticed kakashi mentions this



Please link me where Kakashi says they're limited by chakra amount and not chakra manipulation. That'd be good.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Too much context distortion. Itachi's Genjutsu appears to be useless against those aware of his Genjutsu methods.



Funny. I showed the exact opposite.



"Distortion."​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

I wouldn't say that 
but kabuto has shown avoiding eye contact is possible, something orochimaru can do 

sensors have shown they know when their chakra is being tampered with. like Karin showed 

those same sensors like minato and tobirama have clones. 

jiriaya got his sensing barrier which means he can fight eyes closed. Bee got his partner 

tbh, if high kage level tier play their cards right itachi is entirely incapable of taking any of them out with genjutsu. 

orochimaru, kabuto, minato, tobirama, jiriaya, killer bee, hashirama, gengetsu, Muu, etc

all these guys can fight itachi without the risk of getting defeated by genjutsu 

all are capable of fighting itachi the way kabuto did.


@strat to manipulate chakra you need to have chakra for the jutsu right. kakashi said only you can do it. you have in base 4 times my chakra level. go figure. 
context distortion 

Naruto has better chakra control than someone who could seal his chakra in Naruto with a mere twist and show up as some chakra person 16 years later yh sure. 

read the wind arc nauto chakra quantity Is what is being emphasized here. not chakra control


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> read the wind arc nauto chakra quantity Is what is being emphasized here. not chakra control



Right. So where's that link?​


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Bee isn't Chuunin Fodder MunBoy Dracule.


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## Puppetry (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> *Illusion Power Value*
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato was wondering why Kabuto was keeping himself and Itachi in reserves. Yet of all the combined powers of their eyes, _he specifically questions how Kabuto could pass up using Itachi's illusion power in the war._



It makes sense that Itachi's illusory powers were the main reason for Kabuto to resurrect him. The rest of Itachi's arsenal is powerful but not exceptional in size or scale; plenty of shinobi have a damage output equal to or greater than Itachi's and intangibles such as cleverness matter a lot less with an undying body and an override option in place.

But in comparison, how many Edo Tensei exhibited advanced genjutsu prowess? Gengetsu? Madara? That's three shinobi out of the dozens that Kabuto dug up, and Itachi's integration of genjutsu into his fighting style far outstrips the other two.



> *The Scale of his Illusion Power*
> 
> 
> 
> Shikaku considered Itachi capable of the impact of the White Zetsu ambush. That is, controlling _thousands_ of individuals _across hundreds of miles_. Ao says "not even Itachi" could achieve the combination of those factors, but even _one tenth_ of that...



Shikaku considered the possibility; Ao dismissed it. It's a nice bit of hype for Itachi that Shikaku thought of him, but the suggestion was discounted both in speculation and in practice.



> *External Partners Are Useless*
> 
> 
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu control is _undetectable to sensor teams_, let alone Jiraiya's dumb-ass toad summons or clones. The external clone strategy is useless if Itachi employs his stealthiest control because they won't know until it's too late.



Potentially undetectable by viewing the chakra network. It's still possible for the captive to notice an unusual element suddenly being introduced to the battle (Killer Bee/Hachibi). It's also possible for the captive's partners to notice strange behavior and respond accordingly (Sakura and Chiyo helping Naruto). 



> *Chakra Control is Useless*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



[FONT="candara]Naruto doesn't have superior chakra control; he has a reach-around that provides similar results (Kage Bunshin). Same destination, different journey.

It's similar to Naruto's training with Kage Bunshin. The quality of the work isn't inherently better, he's just capable of doing more of it simultaneously than the average shinobi. [/FONT]


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're going full Munboy on me.​



lol 
but no seriously why mention Naruto chakra quantity if it had nothing to do with it

tell me where it specifically says Naruto was able to achieve FRS due to better chakra control and then you win

I doubt you can though


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

I'm curious as to what feats Minato has in terms of chakra control.

 So far, Strategoob's argument in regards to Post-Wind Arc Naruto having superior chakra control is convincing.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

lets see minato chakra control 
sealing his chakra self in Naruto 
being able to use rasengan with 1 hand something Naruto at that time could not. 

go back to part 1 to find out why Naruto always used a clone. go on ill wait


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lets see minato chakra control
> sealing his chakra self in Naruto
> being able to use rasengan with 1 hand something Naruto at that time could not.
> 
> go back to part 1 to find out why Naruto always used a clone. go on ill wait



 I'm not sure how the first scenario applies to this, but the 2nd one is admittedly a good one considering he can't release the chakra and apply shape manipulation and then maintain that simultaneously though that wouldn't be enough to consider the likes of Jiraiya to have superior chakra control compared to Naruto.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Naruto doesn't have superior chakra control; he has a reach-around that provides similar results (Kage Bunshin). Same destination, different journey.



Kakashi's Sharingan could not comprehend the complexity of the jutsu. Even with dojutsu, he literally could not comprehend the level of chakra control that Naruto had used. So it's unlikely that his own chakra control was higher at that point.
​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm not sure how the first scenario applies to this, but the 2nd one is admittedly a good one considering he can't release the chakra and apply shape manipulation and then maintain that simultaneously though that wouldn't be enough to consider the likes of Jiraiya to have superior chakra control compared to Naruto.



here

actually it clearly implies Naruto chakra control was not as good. as minato could do both things with 1 hand while Naruto needed a clone to handle the shape manipulation 

that's more than enough proof


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> **Kakashi's statements after Kakuzu's defeat in saying Naruto had become strong, had possibly surpassed him, and that Kakashi's Sharingan could not comprehend the complexity/amazingness of the jutsu leaves little doubt in Naruto's chakra control being _extremely_ exceptional.
> ​



ah that amazing straw grasp. having an exceptional jutsu doesn't suddenly mean your chakra control is exceptional 

notice in this panel kakashi mentions only Naruto has the chakra!!! to perform FRS
the chakra!!! again 

here

awesome straw grasp though. not bad.


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## Puppetry (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> **Kakashi's statements after Kakuzu's defeat in saying Naruto had become strong, had possibly surpassed him, and that Kakashi's Sharingan could not comprehend the complexity/amazingness of the jutsu leaves little doubt in Naruto's chakra control being superior.
> ​



Of course it's too complex for Kakashi; it took three people to accomplish the same task that one couldn't, and even _they_ had a hard time pulling it off. Kakashi isn't even intimately familiar with the idea of dividing work between Kage Bunshin this way, let alone such an advanced application of that method.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> summon Gamabunta and incinerate him
> 
> actually it clearly implies Naruto chakra control was not as good. as minato could do both things with 1 hand while Naruto needed a clone to handle the shape manipulation
> 
> that's more than enough proof



summon Gamabunta and incinerate him

 Kakashi claims even with the 4th's capabilities, he wouldn't be able to utilize natural manipulation to his Rasengan which makes Naruto superior in that regard. Chapter 330 just confirmed Strategoob's argument.


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## Six (May 23, 2015)

I find it funny how someone like Kabuto who was already pretty good at genjutsu, after getting all his fighting styles massively enhanced by sage mode still blinded himself in his fight against Itachi. That alone hypes him that sage mode can't stop his particular genjutsu ability.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Someone who admittedly has no talent with Genjutsu (Naruto) has always been able to avoid Itachi's Genjutsu when he's known what methods Itachi used. Each time Itachi had to use a brand new method of Genjutsu to catch Naruto. 

Ergo anyone around Fuuton Naruto's level or above render Itachi's illusions useless when they know about his methods... Itachi's Genjutsu skills are well known.



NarutoX28 said:


> Bee isn't Chuunin Fodder MunBoy Dracule.



Bee was never hit with the finger Genjutsu... a Naruto who was a Chunin level was easily taken out by the finger Genjutsu. He didn't bother targeting a high level like Kakashi with it for a reason.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Naruto was not "Chunin level" against finger genjutsu. Gamabunta, KN0-KN3, and Odama Rasengan were all in his arsenal, and had the skill in base to outplay Kakashi's clone in the Bell Test.

Wind Naruto isn't really all that much stronger, but his chakra control ability went through the roof after tens of thousands of hours of intense chakra control training through the clone method.​


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## Six (May 23, 2015)

​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Someone who admittedly has no talent with Genjutsu (Naruto) has always been able to avoid Itachi's Genjutsu when he's known what methods Itachi used. Each time Itachi had to use a brand new method of Genjutsu to catch Naruto.
> 
> Ergo anyone around Fuuton Naruto's level or above render Itachi's illusions useless when they know about his methods... Itachi's Genjutsu skills are well known.
> 
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto was not "Chunin level" at that point. He could summon Gamabunta, use multiple tails like KN3, use Rasengan, and had the skill in base to outplay Kakashi's clone in the Bell Test.​



Summoning Gamabunta means shit, any kid with adequate chakra reserves and the right contract can summon that toad.

Naruto could never use any tails, in case you "forgot" he could never control then. 

Rasengan again, still a Chunin level as far as his overall skills went. 

Kakashi's clone in a bell test... oh wow. I guess that means he surpassed Kakashi well before the wind arc.  I bet that means he was pretty capable of taking Sasuke at that time too. /s

Naruto was at best a Chunin till after the wind arc.



> Wind Naruto isn't really all that much stronger, but his chakra control ability went through the roof after tens of thousands of hours of intense chakra control training through the clone method.



More strange assumptions from any argument relating to Itachi; to accept Itachi's "insane, unrivaled" Genjutsu skill, now I have to assume:

Wind Naruto was only slightly stronger than pre-wind Naruto. Despite the fact the latter didn't know how to use clones properly, lacked the adequate chakra control skills and didn't surpass Kakashi. I'm meant to assume that'a s slight difference.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Summoning Gamabunta means shit, any kid with adequate chakra reserves and the right contract can summon that toad.



Summoning Gamabuta is something Chunin cannot do, it's something that many Jonin can't handle, and it's something that allowed Naruto to take on a tailed beast.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto could never use any tails, in case you "forgot" he could never control then.



It was stated he could control up to the third tail, and that's what his training with Jiraiya entailed. He easily knocked Kabuto (a jonin) out with a shockwave and removed Orochimaru's arm.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rasengan again



An A-rank (Kage) jutsu.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi's clone in a bell test... oh wow.



What Chunin level can outplay a 50% p2 Kakashi, Munboy? Naruto wasn't even close to going all out and managed that much, so yeah, tell what Chunin level can do that too.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Summoning Gamabuta is something Chunin cannot do, it's something that many Jonin can't handle, and it's something that allowed Naruto to take on a tailed beast.​



Being able to summon a creature Naruto has the chakra reserves to summon and having the right contract to summon is meaningless. Taking on a held back Bijuu doesn't mean anything. 



> It was stated he could control up to the third tail, and that's what his training with Jiraiya over the timeskip entailed. He easily knocked Kabuto (a jonin) out with a shockwave and removed Orochimaru's arm.​



Which is why he got incredibly angry and was forbidden from using the Kyuubi's chakra... and chose not to use a single tail when it was brought to his attention and couldn't remember a thing he did when he was using the tails. Doesn't sound like a power he could use, till he essentially accessed KN9 via the Bijuu training. 

Naruto could never use Kurama's power in a meaningful way till the war.



> An A-rank (Kage) jutsu.​



So Konohamaru is a Kage level because he has Rasengan jutsu. Rank just tells you how hard a jutsu is to obtain, nothing about Kage level.



> What Chunin level can outplay a 50% p2 Kakashi, Munboy?​



Because a Kakashi who is just avoiding his bells from being touch is the same as a Kakashi going all out; is this what you're saying Gooby?

If there was only a slight difference between the two Naruto, there would've been no note that Naruto didn't know how to use the KB properly nor would there have been a note that he surpassed Kakashi. Generally that means prior the wind training, Naruto couldn't use the KB properly and wasn't above Kakashi's level.

I'm not going to disregard clearly established manga facts just to force the exaggerated arguments about the potency of Itachi's normal Genjutsu. Itachi isn't Sasuke or Madara, his normal Genjutsu is meaningless to top tiers.


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## Empathy (May 23, 2015)

I'm just going to say what each character could do when confronted by the prospect of Itachi's genjutsu, as I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the thread wrong. If each character starts already within Itachi's genjutsu, then there's very few who could break themselves out without aid. I'd hardly call the Nidaisengama or a clone of Jiraiya dumbasses, when compared to teams of fodder who can sense. It's feasible that Itachi's illusions would be subtle enough to slip under the radar of fodder sensors. Tricking someone into seeing a Zetsu as the face of an ally is pretty low-level Aizen shenanigans in terms of jutsu complexity. 

I think the war hype, while vague, is more a testament to genjutsu efficiency than it is genjutsu potency (Itachi's influence is subtle enough to slip under the nose of sensors, rather than the fortitude of his genjutsu is so strong that not even sensors could not notice it)—similar to Itachi getting the most out of his rudimentary ninja tools. He's the most efficient shinobi in the world, after all. Even Sasuke was able to pull one over on Danzo without the latter noticing, despite Danzo's maximum genjutsu fortitude exceeding that of both Itachi and Sasuke. Moving on to the participants' chances at combating Itachi's sharingan genjutsu:

*Kabuto*
In base, Kabuto showed he could use snakes to sense the vibrations for movement detection, so that looking at Itachi wasn't necessary. In _Sennin Modo_, he could blind himself and fight even more effectively relying on sensory alone. The odds of Itachi ensnaring Kabuto in genjutsu are extremely low, disregarding _Izanami_ if it counts (even then, the process was pretty convoluted and I don't think he could've succeeded as well without Sasuke and his own immortality). In the nigh impossible event that Kabuto were caught, I don't think he has the chakra control necessary to free himself (even as a medic) and I don't think his snakes possess the coherence to act as viable partners. As a sage and a medic, perhaps he could break it (there really isn't a good reference point for its potency against sages and medics), but I think I've made it clear that I don't think ocular genjutsu is much of a factor in Itachi versus Kabuto. 


*Minato*
Even as a Hokage, I don't think Minato has the capability to free himself from Itachi's genjutsu if he found himself caught in it. The threshold for prerequisite to break Itachi's genjutsu should be higher than simply Kage-level, even if the person in question is well into it (especially when he's shown very little in terms of genjutsu aptitude). Minato also doesn't seem to be the type to rely on summons as partners, so he probably has lost the fight once Itachi has him under genjutsu. _Kage Bunshins_, _Kuchiyose_, and _Sennin Modo_ sensory seem secondary and supplemental in his fighting style to me. However, Minato is so fast that the probability of genjutsu successfully being cast on him seems unlikely. I can explain using Sasuke versus A as a good example. A was moving too fast in version two for Sasuke to cast _Amaterasu_ on, and it took all his concentration to even perceive his movements and follow his position. 

That made being able to successfully cast and land genjutsu through direct eye-contact an impossibility. Even in version one, where Sasuke could still react physically, he couldn't divert his focus to looking into A's eyes and casting genjutsu or he'd get pulverized for taking his attention away from A's attacks. A had to be distracted by Tsunade and then held down by _Susanoo_ for Madara to land genjutsu on him. Minato's _Hirashin_ is even faster than A's version two (and if A can dodge _Amaterasu_, genjutsu attempts through eye-contact are sure to miss). Minato and Obito charged face-first toward each other, where eye-contact for ocular genjutsu easily was established, but Obito couldn't divert attention to it, or he would've gotten a kunai in the forehead because he wasn't betting on _Kamui_ instead. 

Still, a pivotal difference between A and Minato is that the latter is constantly moving at top tier speeds in any direction he wants; instead Minato is teleporting between preset markers. Minato's base speed without _Hirashin_, while impressive, isn't fast enough where Itachi's genjutsu isn't a viable option. Itachi and Sasuke couldn't attempt genjutsu during Bee's _Akurobatto_, because that momentary separation of focus would've gotten them butchered, but they both could connect genjutsu when Bee was successfully distracted or his attacks became linear in nature. That's also similar to A against Madara, where Itachi needs to set up a successful diversion in a multi-step process in order for genjutsu to be successful. As he proved against Bee, misdirection is Itachi's specialty and I don't consider it's a Sisyphean task given _Hirashin's_ mechanics. It will be a taller order, however, as Minato's faster than A and Bee. It's one factor that I think makes Itachi versus Minato so competitive and close.

I'll probably do the rest later or at least edit in the ones I'm most interested in. I think I have good opinions to express for all participants, it's just hard to maintain motivation to type out my entire thoughts (if only Strat could read my mind). For now I've run out of free-time to devote toward procrastination, but I will say that base Itachi integrates his repertoire into his non-base arsenal probably better than any of his base contemporaries (Naruto, Sasuke, Jiraiya, Kakashi etc.) For example, while Sasuke or Kakashi would have to resort to Mangekyou against any worthy Kage-level, and stick with it until the battle is won (the same is the case with the senjutsu-users), Itachi can include his non-Mangekyou abilities in tandem with his Mangekyou ones to the extent where falling back on eyesight deterioration isn't necessary to threaten any Kage.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Summoning Gamabunta required KN0 chakra along with Naruto's massive Stamina. Not any usual Chuunin would be able to summon Gamabunta by any normal means.


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

I think the main point here is that summoning Gama isn't indicative of Naruto's skill so much as it is the charkra stores the Kyuubi provides. Most any ninja in a similar situation with the necessary contract should be able to do the same thing.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I think the main point here is that summoning Gama isn't indicative of Naruto's skill so much as it is the charkra stores the Kyuubi provides. Most any ninja in a similar situation with the necessary contract should be able to do the same thing.



Naruto had Kage level jutsu (Boss summons, big Rasengan, KN3) and likewise demonstrated Jonin level skill (not Chuunin skill) in countering low Kage levels like Chiyo and Kakashi:


​


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Naruto after being trained by a Sannin for nearly 3 years is only Chuunin level?



 CE Sasuke was confirmed to be Chuunin level and considering Genin Sasuke outclassed Chuunin fodder and also managed to perform well against Haku, a rather highly skilled ninja with a unique Kekkai Genkai implies that CE Sasuke was overall a High Chuunin Ninja.

 Unless you truly believe Naruto's stupid enough to chase down Sasuke when he's not overall superior to VoTE Sasuke who trumps CE Sasuke, you have no case here. Naruto's feats against Kakuzu suggest he's at least Mid-High Jounin Level.


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto had Kage level jutsu (Boss summons, big Rasengan, KN3) and likewise demonstrated Jonin level skill (not Chuunin skill) in countering low Kage levels like Chiyo and Kakashi:
> 
> 
> ​


Simply pointing out that Naruto's ability to summon Gama hardly amounts to anything; I wasn't arguing one way or another whether Naruto was Chunin level or not. I'll let you and Munboy do that.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Simply pointing out that Naruto's ability to summon Gama hardly amounts to anything



It amounts to a _lot_ in terms of "level" of power, as _most Jonin_ cannot defeat Gamabuta.​


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

I believe the discussion was centered around "skill", not "power", which my comment was clearly based off of.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I believe the discussion was centered around "skill", not "power", which my comment was clearly based off of.



The discussion was originally centered around "Chunin level," which refers to fighting power. When Naruto's arsenal conclusively put him above Chunin in power, he redirected. When shown scans of Naruto skillfully countering to low Kage levels, he left.​


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Post-Wind Naruto had superior chakra-control to Kakashi and Minato.


Lol, nice try Strategoob. Maybe next time don't use something so easily debunked. 

Tsunade, "He's compressing the chakra into his hand through the use of a Kage-Bushin"
Chiyo

Kakashi, "To begin with the Rasengan" "Was made possible by the combo of one shouldering the duty of releasing chakra, while the other shouldered the duty of "shape alteration"."
Kakashi, "This idea was born from that"
Naruto, "Yup!" "The third me shoulders the duty of producing the wind "nature alteration"" "It turned out good dattebayo!"
Naruto, "....alone" "It's impossible to look left and right simultaneously"
Naruto, "but one guy can look left, while another guy looks right through using Bushin" "Basically it comes down to sharing duties dattebayo!"
Kakashi, "......" "Some time ago" "My Kagebushin hint to split up was right"
Kakashi, ".....nevertheless" "Naruto having such huge chakra and mastery of Kagebushin is the sole reason this methodology worked"
Kakashi, "Me aside" "Even for a great man like the Fourth Hokage it's impossible..."

Chiyo
Link removed

Naruto can do it because he splits the task into thirds. Not because he has better chakra control than Minato or Kakashi.

------

On-topic:

There is a reason why Three-Tome and even Basic MS Genjutsu were no factors in battles like Ei vs Sasuke, Obito vs Minato, Madara clones had to hold Ei down, etc... High-Speed makes it extremely difficult to land Three-Tome Genjutsu. Tobirama, Gai, Ei, Minato, Sandaime-Raikage, and SM-Jiraiya, are all going to be tough to land Genjutsu on for this reason. Especially Tobirama, Minato, SM-Jiraiya who have Sensing, Bushin, and Summons on top of it, and Gai who has a fighting style specifically tailored to defeating it. Mu also has sensing and body splitting, probably Iwabushin as well.

The rest are a little more exposed, but they have ways around it depending on their knowledge. If this is manga knowledge. Onoki, Mei, Gaara, Orochimaru, and Base-Jiraiya have a great deal of knowledge and experience dealing with Sharingan, and they can avoid it through Bushin, Blocking LOS, keeping their distance, etc.... Long enough to pull out more extensive defenses or potential finisher Jutsu. 

Kakuzu may be immune due to his weird body, but if he gets hit, worse comes the worse he looses a heart. Gengetsu could get hit, but worse comes the worse Itachi's successive attack just goes through his water body. And Tsunade could get hit, but she regens with Byakugo.

So to answer your question, none of them are likely to loose to Itachi's Three-Tome Genjutsu or lower. They all already have ether automatic counters for it or have good counters with knowledge, and most of them have the necessary knowledge. Those that don't can take Itachi's successive attack, whether that's hand chop or shuriken w/o much issue.

There's a reason no character that powerful has ever lost to Three-Tome Genjtusu. And before you bring up Orochimaru, ether he did not loose or he was much weaker back then, as chopping his hand off does shit to him in the actual current time-line.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> There's a reason no character that powerful has ever lost to Three-Tome Genjtusu. And before you bring up Orochimaru, ether he did not loose or he was much weaker back then, as chopping his hand off does shit to him in the actual current time-line.



Well, two S-rank shinobi, and Wind Naruto (who killed an S-rank.) All capable of A-rank ninjutsu, or S-rank in Naruto's case, and probably in Orochimaru's case as well.​


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Well, two S-rank shinobi, and Wind Naruto (who killed an S-rank.) All capable of A-rank ninjutsu, or S-rank in Naruto's case, and probably in Orochimaru's case as well.​


Naruto didn't loose to shit. He got hit by a Genjutsu and than Itachi talked to him instead of following through with his next attack. But all of his normal attacks. Kunai slashes or shuriken, would have been survived by Naruto due to KN0 which can regenerate him even from a Chidori to the chest. So he would not have lost to Itachi's Genjutsu there ether, it would have just pushed him further.

Orochimaru's case makes no sense, unless again you can explain to me why cutting his hand off is any kind of issue for him at all. Again i'm still waiting....


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## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The discussion was originally centered around "Chunin level," which refers to fighting power. When Naruto's arsenal conclusively put him above Chunin in power, he redirected. When shown scans of Naruto skillfully countering to low Kage levels, he left.​



Eh, fair enough. Disregard my comment then.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naruto didn't loose to shit.



Naruto was on his knees after being force-deep-throated a live bird.

Maybe that's not a loss in your book.



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru's case makes no sense, unless again you can explain to me why cutting his hand off is any kind of issue for him at all. Again i'm still waiting....



Orochimaru was trapped in genjutsu without a hand to try and kai out.

And without control of his chakra system, he can't get a new one.


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

It's funny because that "hand chopping" feat was enough for Orochi with reanimation to completely submit to the fact that Itachi was/is stronger than him? I believe he said capturing Itachi now is a dream or something along those lines.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto was on his knees after being forcefully deep-throated a crow.
> 
> Maybe that's not a loss in your book, but in mine it is.
> 
> ...



Hebi-Sasuke low diff'd Itachi then.



  



> Are there scans of Orochimaru regenerating while trapped in genjutsu?
> 
> I'm waiting


.
Orochimaru wasn't still trapped in a Genjutsu, he was released when Itachi cut his hand off hence him being able to move freely again. And no I won't bother showing you the myriad of scans where characters can still use their techniques in Genjutsu. You've read the manga and thus should know better.

So yeah, i'll keep waiting for you to provide a non bullshit explanation.



Law Trafalgar said:


> It's funny because that "hand chopping" feat was enough for Orochi with reanimation to completely submit to the fact that Itachi was/is stronger than him? I believe he said capturing Itachi now is a dream or something along those lines.


What you and others fail to grasp was the Orochimaru and Itachi flashback was suppose to by symbolic of Itachi being stronger than Orochimaru. Not to show what an all out fight between the two would look like or imply Orochimaru looses from his hand being chopped off. It's the same thing with Minato vs Ei, it's symbolic of Minato being better than Ei, not that Ei would loose to a simple Kunai slash despite his durability and RCM.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke low diff'd Itachi then.



Hello, Munboy.​


Turrin said:


> he was released when Itachi cut his hand off hence him being able to move freely again



Nothing indicates he could move freely or that he was out of the genjutsu. We saw him from Itachi's perspective grabbing his cut-off hand after already pushing them together to form a kai.

Itachi likewise made a point to tell him that all of his jutsu were ineffective in front of his [base Sharingan] eyes.​


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naruto didn't loose to shit. He got hit by a Genjutsu and than Itachi talked to him instead of following through with his next attack. But all of his normal attacks. Kunai slashes or shuriken, would have been survived by Naruto due to KN0 which can regenerate him even from a Chidori to the chest. So he would not have lost to Itachi's Genjutsu there ether, it would have just pushed him further.
> 
> Orochimaru's case makes no sense, unless again you can explain to me why cutting his hand off is any kind of issue for him at all. Again i'm still waiting....


So you're telling me that Itachi after getting someone under a genjutsu where they have no sense of the world outside their mind can't kill a simple standing target?

If Itachi wanted to kill Naruto, he would not have broken a single sweat, puts him under the crow genjutsu, Naruto is talking to the illusion then gets his head cut off and it's as simple as that, I don't know why you're saying itachi would only throw kana  

Too bad he was consciously aware of his surroundings when he healed from the chidori, why didn't the same thing happen immediately after Kabuto used his scalpel on his heart then?

Itchy could cut off all of Narutos limbs and Naruto wouldn't know until Itachi released the genjutsu. Hell he could put him to sleep just like he was about to do when he was saved by the combined efforts of Sakura and CHiyo funneling chakra into him just to break a finger genjutsu.


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke low diff'd Itachi then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It dooes not matter at all, the man flat out said he can't beat Itachi what more do you want? Do you want Kishi to personally tell you Orochi is no match? Link removed

Like seriously, here the man is flat out admitting inferiority to a small scale or even a large scale battle, he said Itachi was stronger. There is absolutely nothing left to argue.

He waited until he was fucked up to pop out and kill him with his most powerful technique or at least one of his most powerful techniques and was sealed in seconds.

I understand people don't like Itachi but to completely disregard these types of things just to spite him baffles me 

A regular three tomoe sharing can take out damn near anybody if used in the hands of a master in the most intelligent way. Not everyone needs a super powerup to fight powerful enemies. All Itachi needs is a 1 second opening


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## StarWanderer (May 24, 2015)

Itachi has never, ever, took a proficient MS/EMS Uchiha user in a genjutsu.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hello, Munboy.​]


Concession accepted



> Nothing indicates he could move freely or that he was out of the genjutsu. We saw him from Itachi's perspective grabbing his cut-off hand after already pushing them together to form a kai.
> [/indent​



So your argument is Orochimaru couldn't use Jutsu, is proven by the fact that he was about to use a Jutsu before Itachi cut his hand off Lol.

And there was a huge difference between his hands moving slowly to form a Kai seal and how he immediately was able to clutch his hand after the Genjutsu was broken by pain, which by the by was shown to break illusions.



> tachi likewise made a point to tell him that all of his jutsu were ineffective in front of his [base Sharingan] eyes.


​


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi has never, ever, took a proficient MS/EMS Uchiha user in a genjutsu.



How many has he fought? He held back against Sasuke, marked Karachi once and the next time Karachi said he wouldn't be able to fight him alone.


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## UchihaX28 (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naruto didn't loose to shit. He got hit by a Genjutsu and than Itachi talked to him instead of following through with his next attack. But all of his normal attacks. Kunai slashes or shuriken, would have been survived by Naruto due to KN0 which can regenerate him even from a Chidori to the chest. So he would not have lost to Itachi's Genjutsu there ether, it would have just pushed him further.



 Not necessarily. Itachi's genjutsu managed to paralyze Bee and Bee himself couldn't do anything without the Hachibi's aid. It's also important to note that Bee didn't demand any of Hachibi's chakra, it was the Hachibi that made the decision of breaking Bee out of the genjutsu.

 Naruto didn't have that kind of relationship with Kurama, so the likelihood of being able to survive with KN0 in a genjutsu is fairly slim.

 And KN0 Naruto can't regenerate from a Kunai to the head.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Man I just came re-reading those panels 

I'll elaborate later.


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## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Man I just came re-reading those panels



Don't you see a...er..._problem_ with that, Grim?

Honest question.


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## StarWanderer (May 24, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> How many has he fought? He held back against Sasuke, marked Karachi once and the next time Karachi said he wouldn't be able to fight him alone.



Kakashi is not an Uchiha. Obito, on the other hand, is an Uchiha, for example. And a very proficient Genjutsu user too, seeing how he could control Kurama with only 1 MS.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Don't you see a...er..._problem_ with that, Grim?
> 
> Honest question.



Problem ? Who'd have problem with excessive Itachi wank ?


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

with all the context distortion do note that Naruto was never implied to have better chakra control 
but more chakra and had undergone training for 1000's of hours something minato could not achieve because he did not have the chakra capacity to train through that method

very simple argument that none can refute if Naruto has better chakra control why does he require 2 hands to perform a simple rasengan that minato can perform mid run with 1 hand while throwing a kunai?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It amounts to a _lot_ in terms of "level" of power, as _most Jonin_ cannot defeat Gamabuta.​



Except you're reaching hardcore about what defines the level. A Genin level Naruto who can summon Gamabunta is still a Naruto with Genin level skill. 

He was only considered to be around Jonin level once he surpassed Kakashi, who was quite powerful for a Jonin.

The agenda is obvious: if you can somehow distort what defines a shinobi's strength i.e. you want to try to make it sensibly seem like a Naruto who can summon Gamabunta (pre wind Naruto) is around Kakashi's level. Which could mean you can justify the exaggerated claims you have on Itachi's Genjutsu.

Except there's no sensible way to so when the manga clearly proves you wrong. Your stance collapsed the moment you claimed that wind Naruto is only slightly stronger than pre wind Naruto. More so when you're trying to use one panel (a classic method you use to distort context) to try and imply that Naruto's KB skill pre wind is the same as his after the wind training.

If your argument requires an excessive amount of context distortion and omission of manga facts just to make sense... it means the premise of your entire stance is faulty at best.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except you're reaching hardcore about what defines the level. A Genin level Naruto who can summon Gamabunta is still a Naruto with Genin level skill.
> 
> He was only considered to be around Jonin level once he surpassed Kakashi, who was quite powerful for a Jonin.
> 
> ...



if I could pitch in. while Naruto skill level even in part  1 was shit. it doesn't change the fact that his ability to summon bunta automatically put him above chunin level or even jounin level 

this however doesn't change the fact that Naruto did not have proper control of his chakra and couldn't summon bunta at will. 

it is horrible reaching as you say to assume based on false context that Naruto has better chakra control when the reason behind is FRS is his chakra quantity which allowed him to undergo a training no one can 

also note this did not improve his chakra control since boy still needs 2 hand to perform a rasengan. the need to multi task rasengan shows his chakra control is well beneath minato 

btw sensors have always been said to have better chakra control anyway so I don't get this thread at all


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> if I could pitch in. while Naruto skill level even in part  1 was shit. it doesn't change the fact that his ability to summon bunta automatically put him above chunin level or even jounin level
> 
> this however doesn't change the fact that Naruto did not have proper control of his chakra and couldn't summon bunta at will.



A character's skill level determines your level, not their jutsu. Well certain jutsu can, the summoning jutsu isn't among those special cases.



> it is horrible reaching as you say to assume based on false context that Naruto has better chakra control when the reason behind is FRS is his chakra quantity which allowed him to undergo a training no one can
> 
> also note this did not improve his chakra control since boy still needs 2 hand to perform a rasengan. the need to multi task rasengan shows his chakra control is well beneath minato



Are you agreeing that Naruto, after his training to obtain FRS, is only _slightly_ stronger than the Naruto who trained with Kakashi during part 2's bell test? That is literally Strategoob's argument to re-write what Jonin level is. 

False context leads you to that conclusion. For instance _one_ panel that has Kakashi call Naruto clever for how he used the Kage Bunshin doesn't overpower the pages of evidence we had (during the wind training) that showed that Naruto really had no idea how to properly use the jutsu. 

It also doesn't undo the fact that Kakashi explicitly said wind Naruto surpassed him/reached his level (twice). False context tells you that Naruto prior the wind training and Naruto after the wind training are on/above Kakashi's level.

How is this relevant? That's because of the claim that Itachi's finger Genjutsu has only every worked on pre wind Naruto, who was around Chunin level, and never used on anyone above that.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A character's skill level determines your level, not their jutsu. Well certain jutsu can, the summoning jutsu isn't among those special cases.



why not ? when said summon bunta can 1 panel a lot of jounin?



> Are you agreeing that Naruto, after his training to obtain FRS, is only _slightly_ stronger than the Naruto who trained with Kakashi during part 2's bell test? That is literally Strategoob's argument to re-write what Jonin level is.



no I am not slightly agreeing with that at all. however I do agree that kakashi without mastery of his kamui was not above post wind arc Naruto level. 



> False context leads you to that conclusion. For instance _one_ panel that has Kakashi call Naruto clever for how he used the Kage Bunshin doesn't overpower the pages of evidence we had (during the wind training) that showed that Naruto really had no idea how to properly use the jutsu.



I agree. though I don't know why u are saying this. I never said post skip Naruto was on kakashi level. however post wind arc yes. I believe so


> It also doesn't undo the fact that Kakashi explicitly said wind Naruto surpassed him/reached his level (twice). False context tells you that Naruto prior the wind training and Naruto after the wind training are on/above Kakashi's level


.

he only said so post wind arc though. when else did he say it. scan please

war arc kakashi>post wind arc Naruto>wind arc kakashi




> How is this relevant? That's because of the claim that Itachi's finger Genjutsu has only every worked on pre wind Naruto, who was around Chunin level, and never used on anyone above that.



I am of the opinion that all the people mentioned in this thread can break out of it. 

finger genjutsu will work on asuma who isn't chunin level.

I get strat here, anyone without the skill set to counter his genjutsu gets laughably caught regardless of what level they are in


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> So you're telling me that Itachi after getting someone under a genjutsu where they have no sense of the world outside their mind can't kill a simple standing target?
> 
> If Itachi wanted to kill Naruto, he would not have broken a single sweat, puts him under the crow genjutsu, Naruto is talking to the illusion then gets his head cut off and it's as simple as that, I don't know why you're saying itachi would only throw kana :


Itachi could kill Naruto, if he acted that way, but you do not control Itachi's actions. So we have to look at how Itachi has acted in the past. In the past Itachi has followed his Genjutsu up with Shuriken attacks and cutting someone's hand off, so those are the most likely successive attacks for Itachi to make on Naruto in-character. Nether of which would kill him.

And I think it's also unfair that nether you nor stragoob account for the fact that at that moment Naruto's chakra was split among 1,000 Bushin running all around the area. Meaning that Naruto's 1 to 1,000 strategy was less effective as Naruto only had two clones with him. However if he had his max Itachi would need to eliminate many other Bushin before he could get a chance to even land Genjutsu on the real one. Eliminating all those Bushin would give Naruto more time to use other techniques and most likely force Itachi to use one of his stronger than three-tome Genjutsu techs to win the fight.



> Too bad he was consciously aware of his surroundings when he healed from the chidori, why didn't the same thing happen immediately after Kabuto used his scalpel on his heart then?


Because he was completely unconscious and thus couldn't activate KN0. He's not going to be unconscious after having his hand sliced off or being hit by some shuriken.



> Itchy could cut off all of Narutos limbs and Naruto wouldn't know until Itachi released the genjutsu.


No the moment Itachi damages him the pain breaks his illusion. We saw that with Orochimaru.



> Hell he could put him to sleep just like he was about to do when he was saved by the combined efforts of Sakura and CHiyo funneling chakra into him just to break a finger genjutsu.


Naruto's Kai alone prevented Itachi from putting him to sleep, so your just plain wrong there.



> It dooes not matter at all, the man flat out said he can't beat Itachi what more do you want? Do you want Kishi to personally tell you Orochi is no match?


Dude I don't doubt that Orochimaru couldn't beat Itachi. What I doubt is that cutting off Orochimaru's hand defeats Orochimaru, when Orochimaru has canonically tanked stronger attacks.



> He waited until he was fucked up to pop out and kill him with his most powerful technique or at least one of his most powerful techniques and was sealed in seconds.


So Handicaped Orochimaru used his strongest technique against Handicapped Itachi who used his strongest technique to prevail, at a heavy cost to his person. 



> A regular three tomoe sharing can take out damn near anybody if used in the hands of a master in the most intelligent way. Not everyone needs a super powerup to fight powerful enemies. All Itachi needs is a 1 second opening


Yet it hasn't "taken out" anyone worth note.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Not necessarily. Itachi's genjutsu managed to paralyze Bee and Bee himself couldn't do anything without the Hachibi's aid. It's also important to note that Bee didn't demand any of Hachibi's chakra, it was the Hachibi that made the decision of breaking Bee out of the genjutsu.
> 
> Naruto didn't have that kind of relationship with Kurama, so the likelihood of being able to survive with KN0 in a genjutsu is fairly slim.
> 
> And KN0 Naruto can't regenerate from a Kunai to the head.


You mis understand, I'm not saying Naruto stops the attack, i'm saying he would survive it afterwards with Kyuubi Chakra regeneration. And sure if the Kunai hit him in the head he'd have problems, but he's just as likely to be hit in other areas, which will be less damaging than Chidori to the chest, in which case Naruto survives. 

So can Naruto loose in a situation where he's simultaneously having hundreds of other KB searching for Sasuke. Sure, but it's not a foregone conclusion.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

@strat can you tell me where it says jiriaya cannot close his eyes and fight with the sensing barrier. where is the scan 

As for this thread itachi can genjutsu GG anyone he can catch. that's pretty much fact. 

-partner method
-closing eyes
- bunshin 
- dojutsu

are the only ways to not be trolled by itachi genjutsu

otherwise he trolls


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Itachi could kill Naruto, if he acted that way, but you do not control Itachi's actions. So we have to look at how Itachi has acted in the past. In the past Itachi has followed his Genjutsu up with Shuriken attacks and cutting someone's hand off, so those are the most likely successive attacks for Itachi to make on Naruto in-character. Nether of which would kill him.
> 
> And I think it's also unfair that nether you nor stragoob account for the fact that at that moment Naruto's chakra was split among 1,000 Bushin running all around the area. Meaning that Naruto's 1 to 1,000 strategy was less effective as Naruto only had two clones with him. However if he had his max Itachi would need to eliminate many other Bushin before he could get a chance to even land Genjutsu on the real one. Eliminating all those Bushin would give Naruto more time to use other techniques and most likely force Itachi to use one of his stronger than three-tome Genjutsu techs to win the fight.
> 
> ...



I think its best our argument be left here, because of your great dislike for Itachi. Kishimoto could personally tell you Itachi is the strongest ninja to ever live and you'd find a way for Konohamaru to beat him.
1.
You're right, I don't control his actions,however these battledome discussions are taken without the hindrance of the main storyline. In these situation we look at what he/she has done in the past and also extrapolate what they are capable of based on their particular skill set and intelligence. Otherwise these battledome situations are pointless.
Do you honestly believe in a situation where Naruto doesn't have main character and a bloodlusted Itachi, that after getting caught in genjutsu where he could have Naruto act under the pretense of the illusion that he'd resort to only shrunken throwing? Itchy who has been shown to be the most intelligent and crafty character in the series? You are VASTLY underestimating him to a level that makes him weak on your account. Yes, Itachi, the smartest character after placing someone under a genjutsu can only think of 1 way of taking out an unaware enemy, seems perfectly logical. Yeah, I'm sure Naruto could tank 5 shuriken or kunai to the head. I guess in character he's only capable of chopping off hands too, how does Naruto survive that? Kara isn't gonna give him a new arm.

2 And no, this hardly looks like 1000 Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.    nice job trying to nerf Naruto to make Itachi look weak like always . Besides I highly doubt making 1000 clones mattered because I'm positive though not 100% that this was the moment he was placed under genjutsu Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone. so those thousand clones would probably all be in his head. Thats another thing, people like to underestimate/forget Itachi is the most dangerous genjutsu user. They make little scenarios where people can avoid genjutsu when in reality all it takes is one simple half second glance for the match to be over.  Plus a Naruto with half his maximum chakra probably has more than sickly Itachi. As if Itachi would ever be forced to use his MS against base Naruto. 
Let me throw your own scenario back at you, when has Naruto ever done anything insures with his mass clones other than throw a couple of rasengans  and get whooped in taijutsu?

3. If his hand is sliced off then thats it, he has never been shown to be proficient at hand signs , maybe if he had I would give the bond of 1 handed hand signs but even Kakashi had never seen that before so no. The moment he loses a hand it's over and he's left to Itachi's mercy just like Oro.


4. I'll concede that, sorry I was thinking of Aizen and how he could mess you up completely and you wouldn't even know unless he allowed you to. It does seem that external physical pain can disrupt a genjutsu.

5. Try harder, that weak kai didn't do anything, Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone. Link removed   Link removed
It even seems here that he was making Naruto choke himself, so hey thats another way Itachi beats him  It too not one but two skilled genjutsu users to break him from a simple finger genjutsu Link removed

6. Don't try to oversimplify it, Oro has fought on par with KN4 and killed 2 kages, yet completely submitted to Itachi's power, plain and simple. Doesn't matter if he can tank a nuclear bomb, if he says Itachi is stronger, then Itachi is stronger until proven otherwise.

7. If anything I doubt Oro was as near handicapped as Itachi, guy was LITERALLY 5 minutes away from death while Oro was alive and kicking inside Sasuke waiting for the perfect time to pounce.

8. Beating Kurenai like fodder. Making two high level jonin keep their eyes closed. Assume who i might add has a 32.5 in the datebook so he is far from fodder. Orochimaru, deidara. Sound like all high level ninja, maybe if he were taking out genuine you'd have a point, but no.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @strat can you tell me where it says jiriaya cannot close his eyes and fight with the sensing barrier. where is the scan



He says when fighting Pain that, even if they were all sensors, they should not be able to react to attacks so well. The "close your eyes and fight perfectly" schtick is limited to perfect sage sensing.

If Jiraiya tried that with a detection barrier, his evasion abilities would be deeply impaired, and Itachi's speed and weapon skills would thrash him within moments. From my perspective.​


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Muu isn't a perfect sage sensor yet onoki attributed Muu avoiding Naruto initial attack due to the fact that he was a sensor 


jiriaya perhaps didn't know what he was talking about. its obviously better if he can fight with his eyes open. but he wont suddenly become helpless if he relies solely on the barrier


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Mu sensed Naruto approaching and was able to evade being blindsided. That's not the same thing as trying to full-out fight Naruto with his eyes closed.

And I didn't say Jiraiya would be _helpess._ I said he'd be _impaired._ But given that Itachi's physical and jutsu speed towers over base Jiraiya, it's not an impairment he can afford.​


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Mu sensed Naruto approaching and was able to evade being blindsided. That's not the same thing as trying to full-out fight Naruto with his eyes closed.
> 
> And I didn't say Jiraiya would be _helpess._ I said he'd be _impaired._ But given that Itachi's physical and jutsu speed towers over base Jiraiya, it's not an impairment he can afford.​



its an impairment he can easily afford when he got bunta as a partner to help him out

lol itachi speed towers over jiriaya's  

you mean the way hebi sasuke's towered over deidara's? cuz deidara avoided him more than once in that fight and even trapped him 

but hey lets forget all that happened right

I guess itachi would genjutsu troll bunta then blitz and kill jiriaya before jiriaya can form 1 seal? is it something along those lines?


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## Six (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its an impairment he can easily afford when he got bunta as a partner to help him out
> 
> lol itachi speed towers over jiriaya's
> 
> ...



Yep


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its an impairment he can easily afford when he got bunta as a partner to help him out



Until Bunta is immediately taken control of and covers himself and Jiraiya in oil or otherwise works for Itachi. Or are you saying that blind Jiraiya would magically sense it and nip it in the bud?

When entire sentry sensing teams were said to be unable to notice when Itachi was using genjutsu control on people.​


Icegaze said:


> you mean the way hebi sasuke's towered over deidara's?



Are you arguing that Hebi Sasuke's (slower than Itachi) speed didn't tower over Deidara's (faster than Jiraiya) speed? Because you would be very wrong and forgetting Obito's role in limiting Sasuke.

And let's not forget that in this situation, a slower Deidara has his eyes closed against a faster Hebi Sasuke and is relying on a detection barrier to react to every weapon, jutsu, etc.​


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Until Bunta is immediately taken control of and covers himself and Jiraiya in oil or otherwise works for Itachi. Or are you saying that blind Jiraiya would magically sense it and nip it in the bud?
> 
> When entire sentry sensing teams were said to be unable to notice when Itachi was using genjutsu control on people.​
> 
> ...



so itachi can make eye contact so easily with bunta and genjutsu him while keeping track of jiriaya who could either be forming clones or using other jutsu. great fan fic right there

oh we using statements. said itachi claimed he cant defeat jiriaya. see how that works ? 

yh u mean obito who distracted deidara and allowed sasuke to get behind deidara. yh sure. 

deidara main difficulty was sasuke speed. 

again he doesn't need to use sensing barrier for everything. He opens with it, so genjutsu is out of the picture against jiriya in that instance, follows up with attacks and preps sage mode

I don't see why retreat tactics don't work. when kabuto was able to easily do the same against itachi and EMs sasuke. 

jiriaiya guerrilla tactic abilities are second to none the guy is a flee expert


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so itachi can make eye contact so easily with bunta and genjutsu him while keeping track of jiriaya who could either be forming clones or using other jutsu. great fan fic right there



Oh, so Bunta's going to magically be summoned knowing not to look at the guy in front of him, and Jiraiya will simultaneously be setting up elaborate clone feints all before Itachi uses genjutsu.

Yeah, okay, my scenario is the fanfiction.​


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Oh, so Bunta's going to magically be summoned knowing not to look at the guy in front of him, and Jiraiya will simultaneously be setting up elaborate clone feints all before Itachi uses genjutsu.
> 
> Yeah, okay, my scenario is the fanfiction.​



bunta is 100m tall. so off the bat they cant be making eye contact. hope you get that. 

or bunta can be FCD on itachi. so what itacih would be looking at is bunta ass. he cant genjutsu bunta through his ass

elaborate clone feints? nothing elaborate about it. 

kabuto off the bat knew to use snakes and hide his face. implying jiriaya cant do that is just silly 

yup your scenario makes me believe you should write your itachi manga 


FCD off the bat. use that as a smoke screen for a simple single seal barrier jutsu. 

btw obito while controlling kyuubi was limited to how long and didn't seem to attempt genjutsu on minato. just saying


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> bunta is 100m tall. so off the bat they cant be making eye contact. hope you get that.



That's how it worked against Kurama and Obito. 

Or with airborn Deidara and Sasuke.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That's how it worked against Kurama and Obito.
> 
> Or with airborn Deidara and Sasuke.



kurama looked at obito once he was released. considering they had been making eye contact while kurama was inside kushina. 

nice try though. 

also genjutsu isn't working on bunta if itachi is only looking at his ass. when bunta is about to land on him. just saying 

 

deidara was looking specifically at sasuke eyes because he knew sasuke would attempt genjutsu and he was ready to broke it and did. 

then tricked sasuke 

selective reading again


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why not ? when said summon bunta can 1 panel a lot of jounin?



Of course Bunta can one-panel a lot of foes at that level; can part 1 Naruto do it? 
That speaks volumes about the level of the summon which is summoned, not of the user. It just shows that the user has the right requirements (chakra and contract) to summon the beast.



> no I am not slightly agreeing with that at all. however I do agree that kakashi without mastery of his kamui was not above post wind arc Naruto level.



That requires some series proof as Naruto and Sakura together weren't really doing much to Kakashi during the bell test. Kakashi wasn't using the MS.



> I agree. though I don't know why u are saying this. I never said post skip Naruto was on kakashi level. however post wind arc yes. I believe so
> .
> 
> he only said so post wind arc though. when else did he say it. scan please
> ...



If by war arc Kakashi you refer to the one who has the double MS, then I will doubtlessly agree with you. 

I agree with you more or less. The comment about Kakashi citing his being surpassed twice was referencing wind arc Kakashi.



> I am of the opinion that all the people mentioned in this thread can break out of it.
> 
> finger genjutsu will work on asuma who isn't chunin level.
> 
> I get strat here, anyone without the skill set to counter his genjutsu gets laughably caught regardless of what level they are in



I'm extremely sceptical about that because the one person Itachi chose to use the Genjutsu on was the one with the least talent in Genjutsu. From then on, we never saw it on Sasuke... we never saw it used on Kurenai or Asuma, actually. In fact we never saw it against Bee, let alone Kakashi.

The people he didn't use it on were above Chunin level... the one he did use it on was a Chunin level. Suggests that's a low level Genjutsu for low level foes. Not a legit high tier move which can work on high tiers.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course Bunta can one-panel a lot of foes at that level; can part 1 Naruto do it?
> That speaks volumes about the level of the summon which is summoned, not of the user. It just shows that the user has the right requirements (chakra and contract) to summon the beast.



but the summon is simply the user jutsu. 



> That requires some series proof as Naruto and Sakura together weren't really doing much to Kakashi during the bell test. Kakashi wasn't using the MS.



I already said pre wind arc Naruto was weaker. I don't see why that needs proof


> If by war arc Kakashi you refer to the one who has the double MS, then I will doubtlessly agree with you.



 I mean the one with 1 MS who could spam kamui. hence war arc kakashi



> I agree with you more or less. The comment about Kakashi citing his being surpassed twice was referencing wind arc Kakashi.



I knw. glad you agree



> I'm extremely sceptical about that because the one person Itachi chose to use the Genjutsu on was the one with the least talent in Genjutsu. From then on, we never saw it on Sasuke... we never saw it used on Kurenai or Asuma, actually. In fact we never saw it against Bee, let alone Kakashi.



that was the one person who knew not to look into his eyes. and also the one person he chose to use genjutsu on. for his obvious reasons of Naruto being the target. not the others. 



> The people he didn't use it on were above Chunin level... the one he did use it on was a Chunin level. Suggests that's a low level Genjutsu for low level foes. Not a legit high tier move which can work on high tiers.



 it suggests they weren't the target of his attack.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but the summon is simply the user jutsu.



But they're also characters in their own right, which allow the user to take on foes that the summoner's own skill level wouldn't allow them to take. 



> I mean the one with 1 MS who could spam kamui. hence war arc kakashi



That depends on where you think the Kamui spam capabilities came in. We never really saw Kakashi use the MS after Deidara till the war.



> that was the one person who knew not to look into his eyes. and also the one person he chose to use genjutsu on. for his obvious reasons of Naruto being the target. not the others.



Naruto was the only one, after the encounter, to know of the finger Genjutsu. Everyone else didn't know, like Naruto the first time. Yet Itachi didn't think it'd work on high level foes hence the lack of use.



> it suggests they weren't the target of his attack.



Care to explain why he chose to use the Sharingan's illusion on Kakashi and not the finger Genjutsu? If the finger Genjutsu is a high level Genjutsu, there should've been no difference, right?


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But they're also characters in their own right, which allow the user to take on foes that the summoner's own skill level wouldn't allow them to take.



doesn't stop them from being the summoner jutsu. since bunta wont be on any battle field unless his summoner summons him there. 




> That depends on where you think the Kamui spam capabilities came in. We never really saw Kakashi use the MS after Deidara till the war.



war arc. like I said. 




> Naruto was the only one, after the encounter, to know of the finger Genjutsu. Everyone else didn't know, like Naruto the first time. Yet Itachi didn't think it'd work on high level foes hence the lack of use.



Naruto was the target of the genjutsu. the rest is ur fan fic 



> Care to explain why he chose to use the Sharingan's illusion on Kakashi and not the finger Genjutsu? If the finger Genjutsu is a high level Genjutsu, there should've been no difference, right?



because sharingan resists genjutsu naturally. quite obvious finger genjutsu is weaker. not using it against kakashi doesn't automatically mean chiyo cant be trolled with it


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> doesn't stop them from being the summoner jutsu. since bunta wont be on any battle field unless his summoner summons him there.



A summoning jutsu, sure. But then should I say that Part 1 Naruto can take out Hidan because of that? 

Summons =/= the user's skill. It just means the user is skilled enough to summon a creature. Not skilled enough to take foes of a certain level.



> war arc. like I said.



How do you know that's when the Kakashi could spam Kamui?



> Naruto was the target of the genjutsu. the rest is ur fan fic



You say fanfic, but you can not provide a decent explanation for why it was only demonstrated on a Chunin level Naruto and no-one above him. 



> because sharingan resists genjutsu naturally. quite obvious finger genjutsu is weaker. not using it against kakashi doesn't automatically mean chiyo cant be trolled with it



If Itachi could, he would've. Instead he chose to use the Genjutsu on the only guy there not talented enough to get out of Genjutsu. Nothing suggests it is anything beyond a jutsu which can trap Chunin levels.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A summoning jutsu, sure. But then should I say that Part 1 Naruto can take out Hidan because of that?
> 
> Summons =/= the user's skill. It just means the user is skilled enough to summon a creature. Not skilled enough to take foes of a certain level.
> 
> ...




because that's when kakashi started spamming it


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