# Sage Mode Jiraiya vs Sage Mode Kabuto - My response



## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Stipulations: Gama Trio is with Jiraiya
Restrictions: Manda 2 and Edo Tensei

Location: Open Field

Knowledge: Full for both

Distance: 60 Meters


*Spoiler*: _Response _ 



Muki Tensei - Can be counter if Jiraiya uses Toad Bind to trap Kabuto inside Jiraiya’s own territory where this jutsu is nullified. Also, intense heat can subdue Muki Tensei (Jiraiya has plenty of Katon use that’s aided by Toad Oil and Fuuton)

White Rage - This jutsu dissipated after a brief moment in ch. 580 and Kabuto figured Itachi was sensing his location during the jutsu. Which means Sage sensing should work to locate Kabuto’s approach even while being blind and with the sound blocking the hearing. Their Susanoo didn’t deactivate during this time which also means Jiraiya can use a Sage enhanced Hari Jizō to protect his body. With sensing, he can preemptively do this especially with full intel.

Mugen- Can be dispersed with use of Fuuton. As seen with Temari, and with Sage Sensing plus intel, this would easily be done as well. Not to mention Shikamaru could break out via Pain from this jutsu, so Jiraiya should be able to as well.

Toad Gourd Prison - Kabuto would have a difficult time battling Sage Jiraiya while bathing in an acid lake

Gama Rinsho - There isn’t a counter or a way for Kabuto to not be solo’d with this attack. And with summonings, clones and his own attacks, the elder toads should be able to get it off

Yomi Numa - Helps to trap and stop Kabuto’s movements for other set up attacks

Reactions: Funny 5 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## Magon (Mar 19, 2022)

Sertão aren’t u?


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Magon said:


> Sertão aren’t u?



was this ad hominem all you had?


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

J-Man dies as usual to White Rage into Chakra Scalpel decapitation.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 2


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> was this ad hominem all you had?


They can't debunk us and they know it  

@Magon

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> J-Man dies as usual to White Rage into Chakra Scalpel decapitation.


Rebuttal was already made for White Rage in OP.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Draco Bolton said:


> They can't debunk us and they know it
> 
> @Magon



I like your edits


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Rebuttal was already made for White Rage in OP.


What Sage sensing? 

He couldn't sense Shurado.


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

I wonder if the settings could be more favourable for Jiraiya.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Useful 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I wonder if the settings could be more favourable for Jiraiya.


May as well have another character fight SM Kabuto.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I wonder if the settings could be more favourable for Jiraiya.



I think the settings are quite fair. Intel for both, and of course no Edo Tensei

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> May as well have another character fight SM Kabuto.


I mean or against not Kabuto, if you restrict him so much.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> What Sage sensing?
> 
> He couldn't sense Shurado.


And neither did the elder toads. It’s likely because they had thought the battle was over and were not actively sensing. However, we know Sage sensing is real and that it works when battle ready.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I mean or against not Kabuto, if you restrict him so much.


The only restrictions here are Edo Tensei and Manda 2 (neither of which he used while in Sage Mode for battle regardless).


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> And neither did the elder toads. It’s likely because they had thought the battle was over and were not actively sensing.


Are we making excuses?


Shazam said:


> However, we know Sage sensing is real and that it works when battle ready.


It is real.

Just, not for J-Man.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Are we making excuses?


I’m making a claim. 


Danisor said:


> It is real.
> 
> Just, not for J-Man.


According to the databook, you’re wrong


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I’m making a claim.


Uh-huh.


Shazam said:


> According to the databook, you’re wrong


You can look up J-Man's Sage sensing feats.

Did you find any?

Me neither.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I think the settings are quite fair. Intel for both, and of course no Edo Tensei



 Both start in SM, which is a bigger advantage for Jiraiya. 1 is restricted from his strongest summon, the other starts with like his strongest 5 out, which is a bigger advantage for Jiraiya.

So no, not at all actually. 


Shazam said:


> The only restrictions here are Edo Tensei and Manda 2 (neither of which he used while in Sage Mode for battle regardless).


Was having the Gama trio used in any Jiraiya fight?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Both start in SM, which is a bigger advantage for Jiraiya. 1 is restricted from his strongest summon, the other starts with like his strongest 5 out, which is a bigger advantage for Jiraiya.
> 
> So no, not at all actually.
> 
> Was having the Gama trio used in any Jiraiya fight?



yeah I’m debating for Sage Jiraiya winning, so that’s why I have them both in Sage Mode. 

Are you wanting to debate the matchup or just make complaints about the thread? I’m not sure I understand


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> You can look up J-Man's Sage sensing feats.
> 
> Did you find any?
> 
> Me neither.


It’s still canon facts that he has it. And even if you want to be in denial (claiming your headcanon over the databook), we know the Sage Toads Ma & Pa have it. So your point is moot regardless.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> It’s still canon facts that he has it. And even if you want to be in denial (claiming your headcanon over the databook), we know the Sage Toads Ma & Pa have it. So your point is moot regardless.


I've asked you about his Sage sensing feats.

You didn't show me any.

Are you seriously accusing me of headcanon when the databook also state such things as Temari having universe level busting wind, or Sasori's puppets being able to take down an entire nation.

You're being quite the hypocrite.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> *Temari having universe level busting wind*, or Sasori's puppets being able to take down an entire nation.


 
This entry for Sage sensing isn’t hyperbole. I was fairly confident the entire forum knew what hyperbole was, but today I am apparently being proven wrong. 

PS: Sasori was shown to defeat a small nation in the anime. FYI I don’t think that was hyperbole.


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## Djomla (Mar 19, 2022)

It's nice to be a fan and all that. But common.


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> This entry for Sage sensing isn’t hyperbole. I was fairly confident the entire forum knew what hyperbole was, but today I am


So, do you have J-Man's Sage sensing feats yet?


Shazam said:


> PS: Sasori was shown to defeat a small nation in the anime. FYI I don’t think that was hyperbole.


That's filler.

You don't know the difference between filler and canon.

If you did, you wouldn't bring such things in the discussion.

You're done embarassing yourself yet?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

SM Kabuto wins around neg diff, but with OP's fallacious simulation he'll be pushed to low diff if he is generous.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Djomla said:


> It's nice to be a fan and all that. But common.



You could offer up where you disagree and respond with your rebuttal. Or not, it’s up to you.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> So, do you have J-Man's Sage sensing feats yet?


I have the databook. And what do you have?


Danisor said:


> That's filler.
> 
> You don't know the difference between filler and canon.


I obviously do. I literally said it was the anime. 


Danisor said:


> If you did, you wouldn't bring such things in the discussion.


You mean like you trying to discredit Sage sensing? Got it


Danisor said:


> You're done embarassing yourself yet?


Are you submitting a concession yet?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> yeah I’m debating for Sage Jiraiya winning, so that’s why I have them both in Sage Mode.
> 
> Are you wanting to debate the matchup or just make complaints about the thread? I’m not sure I understand


I thought we were first discussing the stips, that you deemed fair, because "kabuto didn't use Manda 2 as SM in his battle anyway" yet you use settings which gives Jiraiya a start with an amount of summons (his strongest 5 summons) out he never had out at the same time, like at all.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> SM Kabuto wins around neg diff, but with OP's fallacious simulation he'll be pushed to low diff if he is generous.



Maybe start with an actual argument.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I thought we were first discussing the stips, that you deemed fair, because "kabuto didn't use Manda 2 as SM in his battle anyway" yet you use settings which gives Jiraiya a start with an amount of summons (his strongest 5 summons) out he never had out at the same time, like at all.


Are you saying Kabuto needs Manda 2… or?


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 19, 2022)

Jiraya gets his shit pushed in.

Kabuto is a tier(s) above him

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I have the databook. And what do you have?


Ok, do you also have J-Man's feats?


Shazam said:


> I obviously do. I literally said it was the anime.


Did I tell you to bring me anime feats?

Did you see Sasori solo'ing a nation in the manga?

I thought so


Shazam said:


> You mean like you trying to discredit Sage sensing? Got it


I'm not.

I keep asking you for J-Man's sage sensing feats


Shazam said:


> Are you submitting a concession yet?


You should.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraya gets his shit pushed in.
> 
> Kabuto is a tier(s) above him



Nice. How about making your argument.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Ok, do you also have J-Man's feats?
> 
> Did I tell you to bring me anime feats?
> 
> ...



Sage sensing feats have been displayed in the manga. Jiraiya can do what all toad sages can because he is listed as such in the databook. You haven’t made any additional arguments so I will take your concession on this topic.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Noticing how hard people are trying to avoid an actual debate on the topic and much rather to stick to one-liners on their preconceived notions.


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Noticing how hard people are trying to avoid an actual debate on the topic and much rather to stick to one-liners on their preconceived notions.


Noticed how you bring the databook but we never see J-Man' Sage sensing in action or his ghost punches


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Maybe start with an actual argument.


Kabuto is stronger than him.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Kage 1


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## Djomla (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> You could offer up where you disagree and respond with your rebuttal. Or not, it’s up to you.



I disagree with opening a thread and depower an opponent so much just beacuse you want to see people say your favorite can beat somebody to whom he is actually inferior to because I guess that turns you on or something.

How about an idea for a next thread. Kiba vs Maito Gai. Gai is forbidden from using anything, is only allowed to stay in one place and the moment Kiba moves Gai needs to snap his own neck. Kiba, flawless victory.

Reactions: Kage 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Djomla said:


> I disagree with opening a thread and depower an opponent so much


how is Kabuto so overly depowered like you’re suggesting? He has two restrictions


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Sage sensing feats have been displayed in the manga.


Ok, are you going to show us the scan/scans?


Shazam said:


> Jiraiya can do what all toad sages can because he is listed as such in the databook.


So, by YOUR own words, J-Man CAN'T actually use/display such things because he is able to, but because of the toads like the databok mention.


Shazam said:


> I haven’t made any additional arguments


You haven't.

Keep hiding behind the databook.


Shazam said:


> You will take my concession on this topic.


With pleasure.

A word of advice: Make J-Man fight opponents his level.

Making SM Kabuto fight someone that's utter trash by his own words (SM J-Man) is disrespectful.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Noticed how you bring the databook but we never see J-Man' Sage sensing in action or his ghost punches


Well he only has one Sage Mode battle. As I’ve already said, even if you want to deny the databook is canon claim, he still has two elder Sage toads. Despite that, Itachi was able to locate Kabuto despite not having sensing during white rage. You really don’t have an argument here. You’re only asking for Jiraiya’s specific Sage sensing feats while denying the databook. That’s all you are doing

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Are you saying Kabuto needs Manda 2… or?


It would for sure help in general to get less restricted, especially against someone with 5 summons out at the start , don't you think?   

You think Jiraiya needs to start with 5 summons out to stand a chance?


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Well he only has one Sage Mode battle.


Yup.


Shazam said:


> As I’ve already said, even if you want to deny the databook is canon claim, he still has two elder Sage toads.


Having two elder Sage toads didn't make him sense anything during his fight with Pein, that's for sure.


Shazam said:


> Despite that, Itachi was able to locate Kabuto despite not having sensing during white rage.


Itachi mentioned he only moved because he knew Kabuto was going to attack Sauce.


Shazam said:


> You really don’t have an argument here.


You don't, sure.


Shazam said:


> You’re only asking for Jiraiya’s specific Sage sensing feats while denying the databook. That’s all you are doing


I'm not denying the databook.

I'll break it down for you.

We can see Shurado talking right before he punches J-Man in oblivion.

We didn't see J-Man display any Sage sensing before, during that, hell, the whole fight, and we can't see him use any ghost punches either.

You're welcome.


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## Black zetsu (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto's ways to win 

- a white rage dragon + chakra scalpel

- tayuya's genjutsu , Kabuto is a better sage than jiraya , they use the same chakra , but Kabuto perfected his sage mode , so his chakra is stronger , jiraya can't break it

Reactions: Useful 1 | Kage 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> It would for sure help in general to get less restricted, especially against someone with 5 summons out at the start , don't you think?
> 
> You think Jiraiya needs to start with 5 summons out to stand a chance?



Kabuto in this match up is as he was against the Uchiha bros. Which is how we see him at his only Sage Mode showing


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto was fast enough to dodge a Susanoo arrow, so he can likely blitz Jiraiya in all fairness.

Yomi Numa is not IC for Jiraiya to use, and it's very lackluster seeing as he struggled with Pain's summons and employed different methods to dispose of them IIRC. Yomi Numa is never landing on someone whose fighting warm-up is dodging V3 EMS Susanoo arrows. Even if he gets caught, Kabuto can cut the part that was caught in it off since he can regenerate and was canonically going to cut off his tail when he was pinned down by Sasuke. Lastly, Oral Rebirth can also launch him out. Yomi Numa is an absolute joke against Kabuto.

There is 0 evidence Fuuton can get rid off a Sage Mode amped version of a sound based Genjutsu. Toad gourd barely caught Animal Path, so it's not catching someone who dodged an arrow. Frog stomach, if used on Kabuto, will flop, as the latter can merge with it using Sakon/Ukkon KKG, destroying the toad on a molecular level.

Hari Jizo is useless against Hydrofication, or Sakon/Ukkon KKG, Jman can wrap his body with it, only to be destroyed on a molecular level afterward.

Gama rinsho working here is a clown argument, given that it takes an entire life sentence worth of time for Jman to prep it, while Kabuto can use his Genjutsu anytime he wants. By the time Gama rinsho is ready Jman would have fallen to Tayuya's Genjutsu 10 times.

Inorganic Animation is blitzing Jman seeing as not even EMS Sasuke can react, and only Amaterasu flames, the highest form of Katon was capable of pushing back the spikes.

Other narrative implications dictate that Kabuto is a superior sage where Jman is imperfect, has a superior summon, and fighting Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke is a superior feat than barely beating 3 Paths of Pain.

Kabuto destroys him in every possible way imaginable.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Kage 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Black zetsu said:


> Kabuto's ways to win
> 
> - a white rage dragon + chakra scalpel


Check my response to this in OP


Black zetsu said:


> - tayuya's genjutsu , Kabuto is a better sage than jiraya , they use the same chakra , but Kabuto perfected his sage mode , so his chakra is stronger , jiraya can't break it


Check OP for a response to this as well

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Ok, are you going to show us the scan/scans?
> 
> So, by YOUR own words, J-Man CAN'T actually use/display such things because he is able to, but because of the toads like the databok mention.
> 
> ...


I’m accepting your concession. Thanks

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Yomi Numa is not IC for Jiraiya to use, and it's very lackluster seeing as he struggled with Pain's summons and employed different methods to dispose of them IIRC. Yomi Numa is never landing on someone whose fighting warm-up is dodging V3 EMS Susanoo arrows. Even if he gets caught, Kabuto can cut the part that was caught in it off since he can regenerate and was canonically going to cut off his tail when he was pinned down by Sasuke. Lastly, Oral Rebirth can also launch him out. Yomi Numa is an absolute joke against Kabuto.


Imagine thinking Yomi Numa is useful just because it was used on Orochimaru's fodder snakes

Powered by J-Man

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Kabuto was fast enough to dodge a Susanoo arrow, so he can likely blitz Jiraiya in all fairness.


There isn’t reason to think he could blitz Jiraiya. He was actually tagged by the arrow, and we see FKS kakashi mentally react. Jiraiya’s Sage enhanced reflexes would stop any such attempt to close in on a blitz and would use frog kata 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Yomi Numa is not IC for Jiraiya to use, and it's very lackluster seeing as he struggled with Pain's summons and employed different methods to dispose of them IIRC. Yomi Numa is never landing on someone whose fighting warm-up is dodging V3 EMS Susanoo arrows. Even if he gets caught, Kabuto can cut the part that was caught in it off since he can regenerate and was canonically going to cut off his tail when he was pinned down by Sasuke. Lastly, Oral Rebirth can also launch him out. Yomi Numa is an absolute joke against Kabuto.


It is IC. He used it in base and has used it on a path while in Sage mode 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> There is 0 evidence Fuuton can get rid off a Sage Mode amped version of a sound based Genjutsu. Toad gourd barely caught Animal Path, so it's not catching someone who dodged an arrow. Frog stomach, if used on Kabuto, will flop, as the latter can merge with it using Sakon/Ukkon KKG, destroying the toad on a molecular level.


There isn’t any evidence that Sage based Fuuton wouldnt


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Hari Jizo is useless against Hydrofication, or Sakon/Ukkon KKG, Jman can wrap his body with it, only to be destroyed on a molecular level afterward.


This was only as a defensive measure for Jiraiya, not an attack. And the latter part about molecular level attack is a bit silly 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Gama rinsho working here is a clown argument, given that it takes an entire life sentence worth of time for Jman to prep it, while Kabuto can use his Genjutsu anytime he wants. By the time Gama rinsho is ready Jman would have fallen to Tayuya's Genjutsu 10 times.


Exaggerated greatly on how long Gama Rinsho takes. You should make more modest claims that you can actually prove 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Inorganic Animation is blitzing Jman seeing as not even EMS Sasuke can react, and only Amaterasu flames, the highest form of Katon was capable of pushing back the spikes.


Flames can help and toad binding that Itachi or Kisame didn’t react to would happen just as fast would flip the advantage to Jiraiya’s

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> There isn’t reason to think he could blitz Jiraiya. He was actually tagged by the arrow, and we see FKS kakashi mentally react. Jiraiya’s Sage enhanced reflexes would stop any such attempt to close in on a blitz and would use frog kata


Frog Kata is not IC, he never used it, and won't use it here either.

His reactions weren't good enough to bail him out of Animal Path's rod that perforated his elbow, so no.

Kakashi mentally reacting doesn't translate to how good one does physically against Kabuto, and that was an MS arrow, not EMS.


Shazam said:


> It is IC. He used it in base and has used it on a path while in Sage mode
> 
> There isn’t any evidence that Sage based Fuuton wouldnt


The burden of proof is on you.

If you can't prove it, you concede.


Shazam said:


> This was only as a defensive measure for Jiraiya, not an attack. And the latter part about molecular level attack is a bit silly


It's not though.

Kabuto can merge with the stomach using that KKG.


Shazam said:


> Exaggerated greatly on how long Gama Rinsho takes. You should make more modest claims that you can actually prove


Tayuya's Genjutsu can be used instantly, Gama rinsho, not.


Shazam said:


> Flames can help and toad binding that Itachi or Kisame didn’t react to would happen just as fast would flip the advantage to Jiraiya’s


No it won't.

And Terra shield combined with Inorganic Animation would counter.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Frog Kata is not IC, he never used it, and won't use it here either.
> 
> His reactions weren't good enough to bail him out of Animal Path's rod that perforated his elbow, so no.
> 
> Kakashi mentally reacting doesn't translate to how good one does physically against Kabuto, and that was an MS arrow, not EMS.


J-Man: Never used Frog Kata, Sage sensing, gets blitzed by Shurado

Juicy G: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Databook!

It says here and here J-Man can use Frog Kata and has Sage sensing because of the toads!

I know he didn't use either in his fight against Pein, but databook!

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Frog Kata is not IC, he never used it, and won't use it here either.
> 
> His reactions weren't good enough to bail him out of Animal Path's rod that perforated his elbow, so no.
> 
> ...



a lot of this is a bit dishonest, like stating things about the path that stabbed Jiraiya as he was in deep thought about who Pain was and was sitting while missing an arm. Things that aren’t applicable for discussion unless he’s back in a similar position.

As for the Fuuton, we have evidence of it working against the sound genjutsu before. So that’s evidence. You would need to prove that Fuuton would no longer work when it has in the past.

He can’t use Muki Tensei on living objects. So being in Toad Binding nullifies it

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## t0xeus (Mar 19, 2022)

What happened with you, Shazam?   You used to rate Jman at Itachi level, no less and no more. That differentiated you from most Jman wankers as your stance was still relatively within reason.

As of lately though, you've taken your bias for Jman to a new level.

Kabuto can just White Rage + Kimimaro Bones impale everyone.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Kabuto can just White Rage + Kimimaro Bones impale everyone.


Counters found in OP


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> What happened with you, Shazam?   You used to rate Jman at Itachi level, no less and no more. That differentiated you from most Jman wankers as your stance was still relatively within reason.
> 
> As of lately though, you've taken your bias for Jman to a new level.
> 
> Kabuto can just White Rage + Kimimaro Bones impale everyone.


''You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain…''

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

A lot of anger from these responses, it’s as if people are personally offended


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> a lot of this is a bit dishonest, like stating things about the path that stabbed Jiraiya as he was in deep thought about who Pain was and was sitting while missing an arm. Things that aren’t applicable for discussion unless he’s back in a similar position.


And so was Animal Path on the verge of death.

In fact, I could argue Animal Path was in an even worse situation because he died a nanosecond after he impaled him.

You are not physically reacting to someone who literally dodges Susanoo's a fastest attack if you struggled against way slower opponents.


Shazam said:


> As for the Fuuton, we have evidence of it working against the sound genjutsu before. So that’s evidence. You would need to prove that Fuuton would no longer work when it has in the past.


We have evidence of it working on generic sound Genjutsu, not Sage Mode amped Genjutsu, whose potency has been amped by at least 10x.


Shazam said:


> He can’t use Muki Tensei on living objects.


Toad bind doesn't evelop the entire surface immediately.

And again, Sakon/Ukkon KKG means Kabuto will merge with it either way.


Shazam said:


> So being in Toad Binding nullifies it


No.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> ''You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain…''


At least Jman will die a hero in this matchup.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## SSMG (Mar 19, 2022)

J man wins via SOTU... GG


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> And so was Animal Path on the verge of death.
> 
> In fact, I could argue Animal Path was in an even worse situation because he died a nanosecond after he impaled him.
> 
> ...



animal Path isn’t another shinobi, he’s a dead body being controlled by Nagato. Point is Jiraiya was not in a battle ready condition, hence why I said you’re coming off a bit dishonest. Jiraiya didn’t struggle against the paths, he struggled landing attacks in face of Preta and shared vision. He was only damaged after being ambushed and while being in deep thought with a missing arm. So again, a bit dishonest. The Toad Binding enveloped Itachi and Kisame before they knew what was even happening, not to mention he could capture Urashiki.


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> What happened with you, Shazam?   You used to rate Jman at Itachi level, no less and no more. That differentiated you from most Jman wankers as your stance was still relatively within reason.
> 
> As of lately though, you've taken your bias for Jman to a new level.
> 
> Kabuto can just White Rage + Kimimaro Bones impale everyone.


He is on a crusade to scale Jman above EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi combined because the Itachi = Jiraiya belief ain't that cheap anymore, the inflation is kicking in.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 5 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> He is on a crusade to scale Jman above EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi combined because the Itachi = Jiraiya belief ain't that cheap anymore, the inflation is kicking in.


Let's scale J-Man to Itachi even though Orochimaru, the guy J-Man was trying to get back to the village, got neg diffed everytime.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> animal Path isn’t another shinobi, he’s a dead body being controlled by Nagato.


Can't see any relevance here, as these bodies are also prone to injuries and degradation, on top of actually collapsing if they suffer sufficient amount of damage.

So not a counter.


Shazam said:


> Point is Jiraiya was not in a battle ready condition


Prove that.


Shazam said:


> Jiraiya didn’t struggle against the paths, he struggled landing attacks in face of Preta and shared vision.


Shared vision isn't making up for a gap in physicals.

If he was fast enough, he would have landed his punch on that Path regardless. The fact that it was able to block his fist means there's still some physical relativity going between Jman and the other Paths.


Shazam said:


> He was only damaged after being ambushed and while being in deep thought with a missing arm.


He wasn't ambushed by the Human Path though, he literally dragged him down the gourd.


Shazam said:


> So again, a bit dishonest. The Toad Binding enveloped Itachi and Kisame before they knew what was even happening, not to mention he could capture Urashiki.


They didn't even have knowledge on it and the binding was negged by an Amaterasu shot either way.

If Kabuto sees walls turning into organic material he'll immediately use Muki Tensei on the not yet affected surface, or will merge with the stomach.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> The Toad Binding enveloped Itachi and Kisame before they knew what was even happening, not to mention he could capture Urashiki.


You're using Boruto feats now?

This is hilarious

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto fought against 2 people who are, even WITH WANK ON JIRAIYAS SIDE, his SM equals on their worst fucking days.

And he gave them an insane run for their money

The sheer fucking stonewalling and piss poor dishonesty you need to employ to land on Jiraiya being superior to Kabuto based on the above fact alone is legit unfathomable.

Pure fucking cope

Now lets take the cope 1 by 1 and then watch good ol ShazzyG just deflect and stonewall as usual and refuse to actually answer


Shazam said:


> Muki Tensei - Can be counter


No it cant as its faster than anything Jiraiyas ever been in the same room with


Shazam said:


> if Jiraiya uses Toad Bind to trap Kabuto inside Jiraiya’s own territory where this jutsu is nullified.


Jiraiya has a hard time doing this when hes fucking blitzed and impaled

We are literally at your first fucking point and you’re already doing the stupid thing where we just oretend stats dont exist and/or Jiraiyas opponents arent allowed to move or attack before he is.

But ignoring that dishonest representation…

The Jutsu also takes time to activate

And also wouldnt fucking counter jack shit as MT would just rip through the toad guts as the very ground they are laid upon is what Kabuto uses to attack with

What kind of argument did you think this was beyond a terrible one?


Shazam said:


> Also, intense heat can subdue Muki Tensei


And you can prove Jiraiya can produce EMS Enton tier flames right?

Oh thats right no you cant…As even basic MS Amaterasu is tiers beyond any Katon in heat by default.

So this isnt an argument either




Shazam said:


> White Rage - This jutsu dissipated after a brief moment in ch. 580


Which is irrelevant as thats more than enough of a window to kill Jiraiya

Also, can you prove it dissipated and Kabuto didnt just cancel it after realizing Itachi apparently immune to its effect?

Making assumptions makes an ass…Yeah


Shazam said:


> Which means Sage sensing should work


Nope

It means something tier beyond Jiraiyas shitty application of Sage sensing is hypothesized by Kabuto to perhaps work

Nagatos sensory feats >>>>>> Jiraiyas

Yet more dishonest representation


Shazam said:


> Their Susanoo didn’t deactivate during this time


Yes

Yes it did

In Sasukes case as he, like Jiraiya, isnt an immortal regen monster


Shazam said:


> Mugen- Can be dispersed with use of Fuuton


Prove it

Temaris application isnt Kabutos


Shazam said:


> Toad Gourd Prison - Kabuto would have a difficult time battling Sage Jiraiya while bathing in an acid lake


Jiraiya has a hard time tagging Kabuto with something he got fucking impaled tagging Animal path with


Shazam said:


> Gama Rinsho - There isn’t a counter or a way for Kabuto to not be solo’d with this attack.





Shazam said:


> (Sound genjutsu) Can be dispersed with use of Fuuton




Yay hypocrisy on top of everything else

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Prove that.


The proof is on panel, the context is on panel. He’s sitting down, deep thought, missing an arm. Im not sure how you’re saying otherwise. 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Shared vision isn't making up for a gap in physicals.


Shared vision did so even against KCM Naruto. It was called out as the main culprit to their issues against the Jin’s


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> If he was fast enough, he would have landed his punch on that Path regardless. The fact that it was able to block his fist means there's still some physical relativity going between Jman and the other Paths.
> 
> He wasn't ambushed by the Human Path though, he literally dragged him down the gourd.
> 
> ...



Sorry but none of this refutes my arguments in OP. You’re side tracking into details that really don’t matterZ 

explain how Sage Kabuto would beat Jiraiya and how he’s going to defend himself against Jiraiya’s attacks


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## MHA massive fan (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto simply shits 
Feat wise he does 
EMS sasuke + itachi > Pain


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kabuto fought against 2 people who are, even WITH WANK ON JIRAIYAS SIDE, his SM equals on their worst fucking days.
> 
> And he gave them an insane run for their money
> 
> ...



a post filled with 90% ad hominem and 10% substance. I’ll counter the substance you do have. Itachi’s Susanoo didn’t deactivate (you’ll have post the scan that Sasuke lost his), it’s not called out that being Edo is the reason Itachi didn’t drop Susanoo during white rage. The proof with Temari shows Fuuton counters the sound. And Temari isn’t a Sage , just as the sounds are the same level Temari faced.

could you manage to post, like even once, without a wall or ad hominem? Is that possible?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> The proof is on panel, the context is on panel. He’s sitting down, deep thought, missing an arm. Im not sure how you’re saying otherwise.


There is no evidence he was in deep thought just before he got impaled.

He literally dragged someone down into his own territory and you are telling me the prey caught the predator off-guard, on top of you lacking any tangible proof to back up your claim.

This is also discounting the fact that the same perfect sages on his shoulders would have sensed the attack or were they too ambushed?

Madara was off-guard and intercepted Tobirama's ambush.

Either you are lying or Jiraiya's sensories along with those 2 "perfect sages" are non-existent.


Shazam said:


> Shared vision did so even against KCM Naruto. It was called out as the main culprit to their issues against the Jin’s


It was them being vastly superior Paths their Sharingan too, don't lie.


Shazam said:


> Sorry but none of this refutes my arguments in OP. You’re side tracking into details that really don’t matterZ


They do tho.

Show me a panel of toad binding covering the entirety of a surface the moment its activated.


Shazam said:


> explain how Sage Kabuto would beat Jiraiya and how he’s going to defend himself against Jiraiya’s attacks


Already did that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Symmetry (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Muki Tensei - Can be counter if Jiraiya uses Toad Bind to trap Kabuto inside Jiraiya’s own territory where this jutsu is nullified. Also, intense heat can subdue Muki Tensei (Jiraiya has plenty of Katon use that’s aided by Toad Oil and Fuuton)


This requires Jman to get this off before Kabuto uses muki tensei and is something that won’t happen as hell be trying to feint a SM user with superior feinting skills to his own (even his base form is comparable in this area)

Infinitely more likely Kabuto mawls Jman whilst not allowing him to escape to surprise toad gourd prison 

If you mean toad mouth bind then this is countered by a Manda 2 summoning and then we get back to normal environment 

Or SM Kabuto just chakra scalpel negs Jman in cqc 



Shazam said:


> This jutsu dissipated after a brief moment in ch. 580 and Kabuto figured Itachi was sensing his location during the jutsu. Which means Sage sensing should work to locate Kabuto’s approach even while being blind and with the sound blocking the hearing. Their Susanoo didn’t deactivate during this time which also means Jiraiya can use a Sage enhanced Hari Jizō to protect his body. With sensing, he can preemptively do this especially with full intel.


This jutsu also stuns…so it doesn’t matter if he can sense Kabuto. Also don’t know if he’s fast enough to get Hari jizo off before the jutsu activated and it also made Sasuke drop his susanoo so it doesn’t matter

Jman doesn’t have a counter here 



Shazam said:


> Mugen- Can be dispersed with use of Fuuton. As seen with Temari, and with Sage Sensing plus intel, this would easily be done as well. Not to mention Shikamaru could break out via Pain from this jutsu, so Jiraiya should be able to as well.


Agreed

Just make sure to remember this for frog song as well in other matchups 



Shazam said:


> Toad Gourd Prison - Kabuto would have a difficult time battling Sage Jiraiya while bathing in an acid lake


He’d never land it, and Jman would be negged in cqc here anyways 



Shazam said:


> Yomi Numa - Helps to trap and stop Kabuto’s movements for other set up attacks


Sensed and therefore dodged 

Also oral rebirth out 




Shazam said:


> There isn’t a counter or a way for Kabuto to not be solo’d with this attack. And with summonings, clones and his own attacks, the elder toads should be able to get it off


No they shouldn’t be able to get it off it takes too long and nerfs Jman. Kabuto would slam dunk on Jman before this is even an issue


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 19, 2022)

People still using the databook to debate with? Jesus lolz

 half the shit in the databook has been retconed to hell and back


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> a Manda 2 summoning


Is restricted


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 19, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Now lets take the cope 1 by 1 and then watch good ol ShazzyG just deflect and stonewall as usual and refuse to actually answer


Like clockwork




Shazam said:


> a post filled with 90% ad hominem


Blatantly untrue actually 

An accusation of hypocrisy when you are being flagrantly hypocritical hardly constitutes an ad hominem 

But like I said, I knew going into this youd never have the guts to have a straight up conversation with me and would resort to deflecting immediately 


Shazam said:


> I’ll counter the substance you do have


No you wont

You will regurgitate your premise 

Watch


Shazam said:


> Itachi’s Susanoo didn’t deactivate


See? 


Shazam said:


> Susanoo didn’t deactivate


And I point out to you that it does

Yet heres the vomit anyway


Shazam said:


> it’s not called out that being Edo is the reason


It doesnt need to be to debunk your assertion that WR doesn’t deactivate Susanoo 

When it’s directly shown and stated that it does


Shazam said:


> The proof with Temari shows Fuuton counters the sound.


No it proves Temaris wind countered Tayuyas application 

Not that Jiraiyas can counter Kabutos application 

This is like me saying that Part 1 Sasukes chidori can counter SM Jiraiyas Rasengan because FKS Sasuke countered Narutos 

And your brain would hemorrhage if I suggested that


Shazam said:


> And Temari isn’t a Sage ,


Nice strawman 

Now I shall wait for you to deflect and stonewall even more and address nothing you ducked so far, then continue to duck until the thread is entirely derailed or locked (which is should have been from the onset anyway) 

Lets see


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## Symmetry (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Is restricted


Ahhh

Then white rage still fucks him in the enclosed space


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

Complete_Ownage said:


> People still using the databook to debate with? Jesus lolz
> 
> Over half the shit in the databook has been retconed to hell and back


He is going to use Kashin Koji as a way to scale J-Man.

If Koji can do this, J-Man can do that.


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## Ludi (Mar 19, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Ahhh
> 
> Then white rage still fucks him in the enclosed space


Which enclosed space?


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## Symmetry (Mar 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Which enclosed space?


The toad mouth bind


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## Monarch (Mar 19, 2022)

@Shazam

Since you have SM Jiraiya > SM Kabuto, and Sick Itachi = SM Jiraiya, do you also think Sick Itachi => Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke combined?

Reactions: Useful 1 | Kage 1


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## deltaniner (Mar 19, 2022)



Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Danisor (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> @Shazam
> 
> Since you have SM Jiraiya > SM Kabuto, and Sick Itachi = SM Jiraiya, do you also think Sick Itachi => Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke combined?


How can they withstand the Fodder Guard Prison or Fodder Rinsho


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## Sparks (Mar 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> @Shazam
> 
> Since you have SM Jiraiya > SM Kabuto, and Sick Itachi = SM Jiraiya, do you also think Sick Itachi => Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke combined?


Quick maths.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Stipulations: Gama Trio is with Jiraiya
> Restrictions: Manda 2 and Edo Tensei
> 
> Location: Open Field
> ...



jiraiya does have some counters, but overall i ihave kabuto blitzing tbh, his base stats are just too high compared to jiraiya

muki tensei - muki tensei is faster than jiraiya using toad bind to trap him so that doesn't work as a counter. and jiraiya can't immediately toad bind trap someone as fast as muki tensei cuts them apart

white rage - jiraiya has no sensing feats, but he could probably block it with hair yes

mugen - yeah, this is feasible with futon, and he has partners so i can see him countering it

kabuto's other jutsu can also be countered by a lot of jiraiya's techs but he'd be hard pressured

jiraiya still loses though


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## YonkoDrippy (Mar 19, 2022)

Hmm who wins?

Someone who could put up a fight against EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi at the same time, or someone who lost 3 paths Pain?

Hmm hard decision.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Joker55 (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto blitzes him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jesusus (Mar 19, 2022)

When will SM Sectarians learn? 

You even forgot the Asura Principle. To have SM Jman begin a fight without auto-losing 0.00000000000000000001 attoseconds before the match begins, you must restrict Asura GPS.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Mar 19, 2022)

Even with Sage Mode and 3 Boss Summonings, and Kabuto Restricted, Its Still Not Enough.

Kabuto was able fight Both EMS Sasuke & Edo Itachi, which are Wayyy Above Jiraiya in this battle.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Troyse22 (Mar 19, 2022)

Kabuto could molest 100 Jiraiyas

Reactions: Agree 2 | Creative 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 19, 2022)

You probably need three Jiraiya level ninja to fight Kabuto

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Mithos (Mar 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> So, do you have J-Man's Sage sensing feats yet?


We don’t need to provide “feats” when the author outright tells us he has via the Databooks. We also know the Elder Toads have sage sensing, as @Shazam stated. A lack of displaying it on panel is not a rebuttal to a canon source material telling us Jiraiya / Ma & Pa can use it. Sensors can still be caught off guard.

With that said, I don’t think Jiraiya would beat Kabuto by himself.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## deltaniner (Mar 20, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We don’t need to provide “feats” when the author outright tells us he has via the Databooks. We also know the Elder Toads have sage sensing, as @Shazam stated. A lack of displaying it on panel is not a rebuttal to a canon source material telling us Jiraiya / Ma & Pa can use it. Sensors can still be caught off guard.
> 
> With that said, I don’t think Jiraiya would beat Kabuto by himself.


Dog shit sensing feats means he's a dog shit sensor, barely better than not being one at all.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Danisor (Mar 20, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We don’t need to provide “feats” when the author outright tells us he has via the Databooks. We also know the Elder Toads have sage sensing, as @Shazam stated. A lack of displaying it on panel is not a rebuttal to a canon source material telling us Jiraiya / Ma & Pa can use it. Sensors can still be caught off guard.


If he is going to bring up Sage sensing feats or Frog Kata, he may as well prove it he can use it.

Saying a character has this ability/abilities and never displaying them is the equivalent of giving special treatment.

Do we ever see J-Man use Frog Kata? Nope.

Do we ever see J-Man's sage sensing feats? Nope.

That's not to mention such fight is ridiculous in the first place. Kabuto fighting pseudo EMS Itachi and EMS Sauce at the same time is better than everything J-Man ever did in his life.

J-Man needed to fight strategically against the 3 paths, and that was a jobbing Pein because of the fight taking place Amegakure.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Monarch (Mar 20, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We don’t need to provide “feats” when the author outright tells us he has via the Databooks. We also know the Elder Toads have sage sensing, as @Shazam stated. A lack of displaying it on panel is not a rebuttal to a canon source material telling us Jiraiya / Ma & Pa can use it. Sensors can still be caught off guard.
> 
> With that said, I don’t think Jiraiya would beat Kabuto by himself.



But you and @Shazam are the same hypocrites who argue Kakashi will never, or not use Kamui in time because ''it's not IC'' for him while arguing for Jman's nonexistent sensing and frog kata feats.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Danisor (Mar 20, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> But you and @Shazam are the same hypocrites who argue Kakashi will never, or not use Kamui in time because ''it's not IC'' for him while arguing for Jman's nonexistent sensing and frog kata feats.


Juicy G: BOOOOOO!

Kakashi is never seen using Kamui offensively. Such fanboyism, you should know it's not IC!

Also Juicy G: Haha! J-Man's imaginary Frog Kata and Sage sensing go brrr!

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Monarch (Mar 20, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Juicy G: BOOOOOO!
> 
> Kakashi is never seen using Kamui offensively. Such fanboyism, you should know it's not IC!
> 
> Also Juicy G: Haha! J-Man's imaginary Frog Kata and Sage sensing go brrr!


He probably thinks ghosts are more real than humans.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Danisor (Mar 20, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> He probably thinks ghosts are more real than humans.


The sheer scale of Naruto characters stronger than J-Man live rent free in his head

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2022)

Naruto is stated by the forum to be a stronger Sage due to having less Animal Features; while Kabuto is not weaker then Jiriaya despite having more Animal Features. It’s a clear double standard


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## deltaniner (Mar 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Naruto is stated by the forum to be a stronger Sage due to having less Animal Features; while Kabuto is not weaker then Jiriaya despite having more Animal Features. It’s a clear double standard


1. Different Sage Mode.

2. Kabuto uses Sage Transformation alongside Sage Mode.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Mithos (Mar 20, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Dog shit sensing feats means he's a dog shit sensor, barely better than not being one at all.


He doesn’t have “dog shit” sensing feats. Again, sensors can get ambushed, too. Or do you think the two elder toad sages who have completely mastered sage mode are “dog shit” at sensing, too?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> 1. Different Sage Mode.
> 
> 2. Kabuto uses Sage Transformation alongside Sage Mode.


Different Sage Mode doesn’t mean the mechanics of Senjutsu Change. We have seen many other Sage Modes and none of them alter the mechanics of Senjutsu; nor is there any evidence of that for Snake Sage Mode. 

Sage Transformation has always been the shitty version of Sage Mode. That’s literally why Curse Seal and Juugo’s Forms are not as good as Sage Mode. So Kabuto needing to use Sage Transformation to enter the worst Sage Mode in the manga; shows he is thee worst Sage; nothing more


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## Ludi (Mar 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Naruto is stated by the forum to be a stronger Sage due to having less Animal Features; while Kabuto is not weaker then Jiriaya despite having more Animal Features. It’s a clear double standard


I think Kabuto has less frog features than Jiraiya by a lot. I think that's what people refer to anyway

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Symmetry (Mar 20, 2022)

Is Mitsuki not treated as a complete sage? Because he has more animal features than everyone 

Could be a snake sage mode thing 



Hell Kabuto even without SM has animal features so it’s a weird comparison. Kabuto saying he is a “perfect” or “true” sage (depends on translation) clearly implies he’s at the peak of snake SM.

Dude is never said to be using a lesser SM, that is only said about Jman.

SM Kabuto also just has better feats so there’s that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Mar 20, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Pein because of the fight taking place Amegakure.


What?

those 3 paths had an advantage being on home turf, the fuck do you mean Jobbing?




Danisor said:


> Saying a character has this ability/abilities and never displaying them is the equivalent of giving special treatment.


Not when they are literally stated to have them 

That’s like saying Obito didn’t have rinnegan powers just because he didn’t do it despite being stated that he could 



Danisor said:


> J-Man needed to fight strategically against the 3 paths


As opposed to what, not fighting strategically? When did fighting smart start being seen as an anti feat for the strategist character??



He also didn’t even take a single lick of damage from any of the 3 paths in a 3 on 1, legit a flawless victory at that


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## Kaioh (Mar 20, 2022)

SM Kabuto fodderizes even with these ridiculous rules

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jesusus (Mar 20, 2022)

The Sannin State Church warned you many times about Promoting SM Sectarianism and now look what's happened. Getting fodderized by SM Kabuto.  Should've went with the Base'th Father instead of this clown imitation that injects old frogs in his shoulder just to recieve auto-Death by Asura Path GPS and blitzed by a Dead Animal Path that moves at a cruising speed of zero miles per second.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Danisor (Mar 20, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> What?
> 
> those 3 paths had an advantage being on home turf, the fuck do you mean Jobbing?


Do you think Pein would go all out in his own village?


Symmetry said:


> Not when they are literally stated to have them
> 
> That’s like saying Obito didn’t have rinnegan powers just because he didn’t do it despite being stated that he could


IC to you apparently is J-Man using abilities he never displayed.

Nice.


Symmetry said:


> As opposed to what, not fighting strategically? When did fighting smart start being seen as an anti feat for the strategist character??


J-Man: Admits he would die in a straight out fight per his own admission.

You: hurr durrr J-Man this, J-Man that.


Symmetry said:


> He also didn’t even take a single lick of damage from any of the 3 paths in a 3 on 1, legit a flawless victory at that


The lengths J-Man fans would go to in order to defend their bodied idol

 

J-Man lost to someone that held so he wouldn't nuke his village.

SM Naruto got beaten despite being stronger than J-Man + prep.


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## Symmetry (Mar 20, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Do you think Pein would go all out in his own village?


Those 3?

yes

That excuse only applies to Deva not using CST and ST

THAT is a valid point 

Not the initial 3 tho, which is shown when they legit use their strongest shit including Cebrus, giant rhino’s etc etc



Danisor said:


> IC to you apparently is J-Man using abilities he never displayed.


Never needed goat punches as he never missed, only ever hit his punches or had them blocked 



Like I said, he’s stated to have them



Danisor said:


> Man: Admits he would die in a straight out fight per his own admission.
> 
> You: hurr durrr J-Man this, J-Man that.


Didn’t counter what I said 

Imagine using a character fighting with strategy as an anti feat



Jman also stated he thought that each of the three paths could use each of their three abilities when he said he’d lose in a straight out fight

Aren’t you all the ones who preach context in statements? At least try to be consistent

Jman thought all 3 could summon and all 3 could absorb jutsu

He was wrong, and therefore an u reliable narrator

Stay mad




Danisor said:


> SM Naruto got beaten despite being stronger than J-Man + prep.


I…never denied this? Wtf?

Pain > SM Naruto > Jman

Legit never said otherwise 

Try reading??




Danisor said:


> J-Man lost to someone that held so he wouldn't nuke his village.


Those three paths would eat any mid kage alive 



Animal ALONE is a solid mid kage, backed by Preta and Human they are shitting on even some low high kage’s



So yea, Jman needed strategy to flawless victory a high kage team

On nooooo


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## Danisor (Mar 20, 2022)

@Symmetry This is the first time I see someone describing J-Man's victory against Pein's 3 paths as "flawless"



J-Man himself admitted inferiority against Pein's weaker paths.

Frog Song was his win con.

Does that sound like a flawless victory to you?

Frog Kata was never used, we saw Shurado announcing his presence right before he hit J-Man, there goes his Sage sensing too.

Your obsession with Foddermaru/J-Man has driven you to insanity.

Wasted enough time with someone that is making excuses as for why J-Man didn't display either abilities during the fight.

See ya.


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## Rin (Mar 20, 2022)

The logic used to demerit Jiraiya here is unfair and illogical, to be fair.

People are screwing Jiraiya's Sage Sensing merely because he was flogged by Asura Path in a surreptitious attack, but none wants to consider the same thing to Naruto who as similarly surprised by Preta Path with the same methodology.

The counterpoint used to what I've said is "Asura warned him", but that makes no sense. To talk before an attack is a manga property and won't simply help the enemy to react, unless you think Obito (JJ) is slow because Tobirama recited a phrase when attacking him — guess what? Despite the "warning", Obito could not simply react to Tobirama's attack.

For the Frog Kata, it's also highly unfair to deny what's been said by the databook. Even ignoring this, Jiraiya was considered a full-fledged Sage (passed on all steps) by Fukasaku, saying he doesn't dominate the Frog Kata — technique literally treated to be intrinsic to the SM's amps by both the databook and Fukasaku — which is learned on the initial steps of the Sage training is irrational.

Finally, after I've explained why it makes sense for Jiraiya to irrefutably have it, I'll explain the causality of why he did not use it even when he needed.

In my opinion, it's a matter of timeline. After Naruto had mastered the Sage Mode, Kishimoto wanted to make ways for him to deal with Pain. The 'invisible slap' was the method Kishimoto invented for Naruto to instantly knock Preta Path down.

Kishimoto had not planned the Frog Kata when he was proceeding Jiraiya vs. Pain, or either he had, but conscientiously decided to present that jutsu on Naruto, not on Jiraiya.

That's why Jiraiya, Fukasaku and Shima *never* attempted to use LoS Blockers or Frog Call on the Pain Trio, despite the astonishing effectiveness of those jutsus on the strife.

According to the same logic being applied here, Fukasaku and Shima couldn't use LoS Blockers and Frog Call when they were with Jiraiya, does that make sense? No.

Another occasion, outside of the Pain Arc in where that's conspicuous is on Frog Strike. Come on, don't you think Frog Strike was the onipotent counter for the Third Raikage?

Why Naruto never attempted to use it against the Sandaime? Simple, because the author hadn't invented it yet, duh.

That being said, Kabuto demolishes SM Jiraiya.​

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I think Kabuto has less frog features than Jiraiya by a lot. I think that's what people refer to anyway


How? Jiriaya only Frog Feature is his Toad Nose. Kabuto entire body is that of a snake and has horns; and a cobra hood marking on his back


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## Ludi (Mar 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> How? Jiriaya only Frog Feature is his Toad Nose. Kabuto entire body is that of a snake and has horns; and a cobra hood marking on his back


So Kabuto has less *frog* features (more features, snake however). I mean, you can see this reasoning in this very thread.


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> So Kabuto has less *frog* features (more features, snake however). I mean, you can see this reasoning in this very thread.


Ah I see


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2022)

Nogger said:


> Jiraiya has more frog features.
> 
> Snake SM ignores this patern.  Kabuto has even more snake features than oro himself and still perfected the art where his master did not.  On top of that, he says he's a perfect sage.  He is >> Jman in Sm mastery and beats him in Base anyway.


Kabuto does not have more snake features then Oro; Oro true form is a giant snake. And it’s almost like Kabuto was full of shit when he said he was perfect just like every other time he said it


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## Sparks (Mar 20, 2022)

Jiraiya has no frog/toad features in base whereas Kabuto and Orochimaru both have snake features due to their genetically modified bodies.

Kabuto is a better sage than Jiraiya. It's that simple.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Mar 20, 2022)

Rin said:


> People are screwing Jiraiya's Sage Sensing merely because he was flogged by Asura Path in a surreptitious attack, but none wants to consider the same thing to Naruto who as similarly surprised by Preta Path with the same methodology.


Naruto Only got caught by Preta Path because he was first caught by Tendo's Bansho Tennin.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 20, 2022)

Rin said:


> The logic used to demerit Jiraiya here is unfair and illogical, to be fair.
> 
> People are screwing Jiraiya's Sage Sensing merely because he was flogged by Asura Path in a surreptitious attack, but none wants to consider the same thing to Naruto who as similarly surprised by Preta Path with the same methodology​



Unlike Asura with Jiraiya, Preta didn't give Naruto a warning before he arrived and neither did he blindsides or land a hit on Naruto, so bad comparison. 



Rin said:


> The counterpoint used to what I've said is "Asura warned him", but that makes no sense.​



It makes complete sense, hence you don't have an actual argument against it.



Rin said:


> To talk before an attack is a manga property​



Which doesn't remotely change or even address the fact having a warning helps you dodge a surprise attack.



Rin said:


> and won't simply help the enemy to react, unless you think Obito (JJ) is slow because Tobirama recited a phrase when attacking him — guess what? Despite the "warning", Obito could not simply react to Tobirama's attack​



What scene are you referring to? 

Also, that's a feat for Tobirama.



Rin said:


> For the Frog Kata, it's also highly unfair to deny what's been said by the databook​



Manga > Databook statements.



Rin said:


> Even ignoring this, Jiraiya was considered a full-fledged Sage (passed on all steps) by Fukasaku​



Proof? 



Rin said:


> saying he doesn't dominate the Frog Kata — technique literally treated to be intrinsic to the SM's amps by both the databook and Fukasaku — which is learned on the initial steps of the Sage training is irrational​



Proof Jiraiya "dominated" the Frog Kata? 

Learning Frog Kata =/ using ghost punches specifically, btw.



Rin said:


> Finally, after I've explained why it makes sense for Jiraiya to irrefutably have it, I'll explain the causality of why he did not use it even when he needed.
> 
> In my opinion, it's a matter of timeline. After Naruto had mastered the Sage Mode, Kishimoto wanted to make ways for him to deal with Pain. The 'invisible slap' was the method Kishimoto invented for Naruto to instantly knock Preta Path down​



Bad argument. 

Pain literally did not even know ghost punches existed until Naruto used them.

If Kishimoto wanted to establish Jiraiya had them too (even after the fact), he would have Pain or someone else talk about Jiraiya using them. Yet he never does, and only the Databooks - which are a secondary source and often leave out information or get it wrong - do. 



Rin said:


> Kishimoto had not planned the Frog Kata when he was proceeding Jiraiya vs. Pain, or either he had, but conscientiously decided to present that jutsu on Naruto, not on Jiraiya





Rin said:


> That's why Jiraiya, Fukasaku and Shima *never* attempted to use LoS Blockers or Frog Call on the Pain Trio, despite the astonishing effectiveness of those jutsus on the strife.
> 
> According to the same logic being applied here, Fukasaku and Shima couldn't use LoS Blockers and Frog Call when they were with Jiraiya, does that make sense? No.​



Headcanon, and still not proof Jiraiya had ghost punches.



Rin said:


> Another occasion, outside of the Pain Arc in where that's conspicuous is on Frog Strike. Come on, don't you think Frog Strike was the onipotent counter for the Third Raikage?
> 
> 
> Why Naruto never attempted to use it against the Sandaime? Simple, because the author hadn't invented it yet, duh.
> ...



Or maybe Naruto thought a Rasengan would produce more of the force necessary to deflect Nukite than Frog Strike  

Quite frankly, you just happen to be in denial like the other Jiraiya chads. Your argument is literally "Kishimoto didn't think of it" and unsupported by any actual logic or evidence other than a flawed secondary source that doesn't even explicitly SAY Jiraiya can use ghost punches.


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## IzanagiSageKunai (Mar 20, 2022)

Rin said:


> Even ignoring this, Jiraiya was considered a full-fledged Sage (passed on all steps) by Fukasaku,


Hes a Sage, but not a Perfect Sage.

He needs some time to gather energy for the form + he needs Ma & Pa to make it last longer.


Naruto used Clones to gather energy to activate the form in less time and can maintain it longer (without the use of Sage frogs to help).


Minato is a perfect Sage.
Minato's Main Character Trait is he's Humble.
In the WA, he's like "I'm not that good at sage mode", then closes his eyes for like a Second and he's in Sage Mode Lol. Dude was just trying to be humble and not trying brag about it lol.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Quipchaque (Mar 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I mean or against not Kabuto, if you restrict him so much.



If it wasn't Jiraiya this thread was about he'd probably not even consider these conditions. Then he'd just focus on yomi yomi yomi Yomi gg and toad stomachs soloing everything. Heck he is already doing this kinda. It's mildly funny tho I admit that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We don’t need to provide “feats” when the author outright tells us he has via the Databooks. We also know the Elder Toads have sage sensing, as @Shazam stated. A lack of displaying it on panel is not a rebuttal to a canon source material telling us Jiraiya / Ma & Pa can use it. Sensors can still be caught off guard.
> 
> With that said, I don’t think Jiraiya would beat Kabuto by himself.


Jiraiya can have sensing all he wants

You still need to prove the extent to which hw can use it and how it helps him bud

Part 1 Sasuke has Sharingan and kinetic vision as stated numerous times but that doesnt mean that its an autowin against any form of attack any more than sensing is

Establishing Jiraiyas arsenal isn’t enough 

Yall need to establish what his arsenal can provably do to make an argument…Not just scale wherever you want in any ability hes implied to have but never showed in any meaningful capacity 

Why do exactly 0 sannin fans understand that?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2022)

Also…

Are the usual trolls doing the stupid damage control of Jiraiya scaling to or above Kabuto in shit on the basia of “hurr durr both have animal features so both are same level durr”???

Despite the fact it’s directly stated Kabutos a perfect sage and Jiraiya isnt?

That logic is beyond stupid anyway as its not like all Perfect Sages have the same level pf ability or stats…There are entire toers of difference between Hashirama, Minato, Kabuto and PA Naruto…Why people think Imperfect Sages are peers when perfect sages arent is beyond me. Just stupid as I said.

Kabutos animal features are explained by the fact the dude has a fucking tail and scales in base anyway and is using Sage Transformation which is shown and stated to mutate then users on a physical level as a general rule.

If people wanna argue Kabutos an imperfect sage when he directly states the opposite than onus is on them to prove beyond ANY DOUBT that the horns come from NE imbalance and not a product of Jugos power.

Until they can do that? They can eat shit on this topic as all theyve got going for their side is ignorance of Kabutos own statement and confirmation bias

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kaioh (Mar 20, 2022)

Since some people believe in SM Jiraiya's sensing powers, I'd like to ask: where are you getting that idea from?

Jiraiya couldn't sense Pein's chameleon in the fight, needed Ma's creature detection jutsu to reveal its location and was going to rely on detection barriers otherwise: 

Jiraiya was getting ambushed by Ningendo Pein and needed to be bailed out by both frog elders: 

Jiraiya shows uncertainty at the properties of sensor ninja. Kinda weird if he's supposed to be one himself?



Finally, there's the obvious blitz by Shurado:


People are quoting some mythical scans from the databook proving Jiraiya has sensory and whatnot. I have no idea whatsoever what is this supposed to reference, as I couldn't find any claim of that sort there, but even supposing it's true, Manga > Databooks in terms of fidelity. Databooks are essentially canon B material, meaning canon unless contradicting the manga itself. Manga seems pretty adamant about showing how Jiraiya lacks sensory, precog and all the trademark abilities of senjutsu mode aside from the minor things like increased size of attacks and such.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## jesusus (Mar 20, 2022)

A Bored Base Prop Skeleton Segway rider would blitz SM Jman

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Mithos (Mar 21, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jiraiya can have sensing all he wants
> 
> You still need to prove the extent to which hw can use it and how it helps him bud
> 
> ...


Three sage sensors means he probably doesn’t get blinded and stunned and then blitz-killed by White Rage. But he still doesn’t win the fight. That’s all I’m saying.


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## Sufex (Mar 21, 2022)

White rage shit diffs

Reactions: Winner 1


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