# Sharingan Itachi vs. Hiraishin-less Minato



## Ryuzaki (Dec 21, 2016)

Distance: 35m
Location: Konoha Outskirts where Pain was before he jumped into Konoha
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Mangekyou Sharingan, Izanami, Izanagi, Hiraishin, Kurama and Senjutsu


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Your restrictions extremely hurts Itachi more than what it does for Minato , as Minato is still much faster on foot , with better reaction speed , better striking speed .
Itachi is gonna lose his two most important one shot techniques , and he's gonna lose the only thing that can protect him from Minato's assault (Susanoo) , in addition to the MS precog abilities .

Minato gang bangs him with clones , and one shots him with a basketball sized Rasengan .

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## theRonin (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Your restrictions extremely hurts Itachi more than what it does for Minato , as Minato is still much faster on foot , with better reaction speed , better striking speed .
> Itachi is gonna lose his two most important one shot techniques , and he's gonna lose the only thing that can protect him from Minato's assault (Susanoo) , in addition to the MS precog abilities .
> 
> Minato gang bangs him with clones , and one shots him with a basketball sized Rasengan .


This.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 21, 2016)

Inb4 fanfictions

Minato wins low difficulty
Boss summons would be too much for itachi to handle
Any way minatos base speed is shown to be on other level where he could snatch naruto in front of a Ms obito (1) (2)

Also shunshin to a near by tree from a kurama attack that we're deemed faster by sm naruto (3) (4)
While his reactions and striking speed are inhuman
Itachi gets destroyed .

Reactions: Like 4


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

I forgot about Gamabaunta ck
Food cart destroyer one shots ck


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## Icegaze (Dec 21, 2016)

Boss summon is hard trolled with genjutsu though 
So I don't see why that's a problem for itachi

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

Withput intel itachi definitely oneshots with genjutsu, with intel, itachi still be jeshots any summon with genjutsu and proceeds to beat minato med diff, itachi while edo (not prime) held his own against bee and kcm naruto, and somehow yall think minato has anything speed related that itachi can't handle?  Lemme put it this way,  minato needed ftg to evade raikages punch while itachi was fighting kcm naruto who outsped minato, minato is nothing special amongst top tier characters in naruto, be honest yall he aint blitzing no top tier without ftg and most definitely not itachi

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Withput intel itachi definitely oneshots with genjutsu, with intel, itachi still be jeshots any summon with genjutsu and proceeds to beat minato med diff, itachi while edo (not prime) held his own against bee and kcm naruto, and somehow yall think minato has anything speed related that itachi can't handle?  Lemme put it this way,  minato needed ftg to evade raikages punch while itachi was fighting kcm naruto who outsped minato, minato is nothing special amongst top tier characters in naruto, be honest yall he aint blitzing no top tier without ftg and most definitely not itachi


I could write paragraphs on how zero sense everything you typed out just made and how every single word you just said is flat out wrong .


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## hbcaptain (Dec 21, 2016)

Minato wins High/extreme diff.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 21, 2016)

Lmao, people actually believe that Minato without FTG can blitz anyone remotely relevant. 

Unlike Minato, Itachi in base got behind Adult Bee and managed to deal some dmg, while Minato used FTG to get behind Bee and managed to deal zero damage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I could write paragraphs on how zero sense everything you typed out just made and how every single word you just said is flat out wrong .



I made some some  mistakes typing but you can make out what I said nevertheless lemme put it in lay mans term
- raikage > minato w/o ftg
- itachi fought on par with kcm naruto > raikage
You get the gist now?


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

SapheI'm sayingth said:


> Lmao, people actually believe that Minato without FTG can blitz anyone remotely relevant.
> 
> Unlike Minato, Itachi in base got behind Adult Bee and managed to deal some dmg, while Minato used FTG to get behind Bee and managed to deal zero damage.


Exactly what I'm saying,  dude almost got blitzed by raikage if not for ftg, base minato aint fast enough to blitz any relevant character


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> I made some some  mistakes typing but you can make out what I said nevertheless lemme put it in lay mans term
> - raikage > minato w/o ftg
> - itachi fought on par with kcm naruto > raikage
> You get the gist now?


So the logical conclusion that you are trying to make is Itachi = KCM Naruto > Raikage in speed , right ? 
Lol no , here's the right interpretation of the manga that you should be using :
- Naruto is holding back against Itachi , using nothing but average speed level .
- KCM Naruto is only faster than the Raikage when he's using his top speed shunshin , other than that he's below V1 Raikage in speed proved by their skimish .
- Raikage is faster than Itachi , so him being faster than Minato w/o FTG is irrelevant .
- Just because KCM Naruto dodged A using his fastest shunshin doesn't mean that every single damn move he makes post that is also faster than V2 raikage .
- Minato by feats , would clown Itachi in all terms of speed , period .

Use Manga , and objective interpretation , do not use bad logic


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Withput intel itachi definitely oneshots with genjutsu, with intel, itachi still be jeshots any summon with genjutsu and proceeds to beat minato med diff,* itachi while edo (not prime) held his own against bee and kcm naruto*, and somehow yall think minato has anything speed related that itachi can't handle?  Lemme put it this way,  minato needed ftg to evade raikages punch while itachi was fighting kcm naruto who outsped minato, minato is nothing special amongst top tier characters in naruto, be honest yall he aint blitzing no top tier without ftg and most definitely not itachi


not really. They were having a conversation. Neither Naruto, Bee, Itachi, nor Nagato were in any actual danger before Itachi Kotoamatsukami'd himself and Kabuto jacked Nagato's consciousness


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So the logical conclusion that you are trying to make is Itachi = KCM Naruto > Raikage in speed , right ?
> Lol no , here's the right interpretation of the manga that you should be using :
> - Naruto is holding back against Itachi , using nothing but average speed level .
> - KCM Naruto is only faster than the Raikage when he's using his top speed shunshin , other than that he's below V1 Raikage in speed proved by their skimish .
> ...


Dude not only is edo itachi not at full power but also he was keeping up with a sage mode user,minato without ftg ain't fast enough to blitz itachi its common sense


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Dude not only is edo itachi not at full power


Not at full power you say eh ?
Can you prove it ? cuz last i checked , living Itachi can't spam MS techniques , and when living Itachi uses the Sharingan too much , his physical abilities drops , and his moves becomes sloppy .


uchihakil said:


> also he was keeping up with a sage mode user,minato without ftg ain't fast enough to blitz itachi its common sense


Yes , with the MS precog , which he doesn't have here .
Never said Mianto would blitz him w/o FTG , but he's much faster on foot with better reaction speed than even the MS .
Which means , in a direct clash , Itachi's one who gets hit first , not the other way around


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> not really. They were having a conversation. Neither Naruto, Bee, Itachi, nor Nagato were in any actual danger before Itachi Kotoamatsukami'd himself and Kabuto jacked Nagato's consciousness


Lets do this again. Raikage would've blitzed minato if it was'nt for ftg and ms sasuke who was inferior to itachi could track raikage


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not at full power you say eh ?
> Can you prove it ? cuz last i checked , living Itachi can't spam MS techniques , and when living Itachi uses the Sharingan too much , his physical abilities drops , and his moves becomes sloppy .
> 
> Yes , with the MS precog , which he doesn't have here .
> ...


Dude has a fucking sharingan to trace his speed, go rewatch kid naruto vs sasuke and see what the sharingan does, and bout reflexes, itachi reacted to lightening while half blind and sick or him casually reacting to bee, while kid bee reacted to ftg


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Lets do this again. Raikage would've blitzed minato if it was'nt for ftg and ms sasuke who was inferior to itachi could track raikage




Sasuke didn't track shit , nor did he reacted to the Raikage physically , he reacted by forming an enton shield , which is a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
Minato also reacted the Raikage with FTG activation , that's also a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
So how is Sasuke better again ? 


uchihakil said:


> Dude has a fucking sharingan to trace his speed, go rewatch kid naruto vs sasuke and see what the sharingan does


Yes , he has the Sharingan , which helps him read speed , what's next ? 
He is still slower on foot .


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Sasuke didn't track shit , nor did he reacted to the Raikage physically , he reacted by forming an enton shield , which is a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
> Minato also reacted the Raikage with FTG activation , that's also a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
> So how is Sasuke better again ?
> 
> ...


Minato has no feat that puts him above itachi in footspeed all he has is his title, or can you name a feat that does ? Itachi casually fought bee while yourman was getting tagged by a way younger inexperienced bee


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Minato has no feat that puts him above itachi in footspeed all he has is his title, or can you name a feat that does ? Itachi casually fought bee while yourman was getting tagged by a way younger inexperienced bee


Ask and you shall receive my man  
- Got to the battlefield of the war before any Sasuke and the rest of the Hokages and Sasuke , teleported the Juubi's TBB which is the size of the perfect Susanoo to the already marked sea , and then he spread his Kunais around the Juubi which is the size of Island Turtle before anyone could understand WTF just happened .
- He shunshin'ed across Konoha in seconds before Kurama could finish off his TBB .
- He shunshin'ed across a long distance in and out to save Kushina from a point blank Kyuubi strike who at half power was too fast for SM Naruto who has a better reaction speed than KCM Naruto .
And all of his other feats against Tobi .

Now let me see you posting some of Itachi's feats , if you could find some that is 


uchihakil said:


> Itachi casually fought bee while yourman was getting tagged by a way younger inexperienced bee


My man tagged Killer bee with an FTG seal before him and his brother could understand WTF is going on , while your man was trying his hardest not to engage with Bee's sword dance


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Ask and you shall receive my man
> - Got to the battlefield of the war before any Sasuke and the rest of the Hokages and Sasuke , teleported the Juubi's TBB which is the size of the perfect Susanoo to the already marked sea , and then he spread his Kunais around the Juubi which is the size of Island Turtle before anyone could understand WTF just happened .
> - He shunshin'ed across Konoha in seconds before Kurama could finish off his TBB .
> - He shunshin'ed across a long distance in and out to save Kushina from a point blank Kyuubi strike who at half power was too fast for SM Naruto who has a better reaction speed than KCM Naruto .
> ...


First off i Don't fucking believe EMS sasuke and juugo have the same speed nor do i believe hiruzen is as fast as tobirama. So that  point is moot IMO


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> First off i Don't fucking believe EMS sasuke and juugo have the same speed nor do i believe hiruzen is as fast as tobirama. So that  point is moot IMO


Yeah , so ? the whole scene was to hype up his speed compared to the rest of the clowns .
And what's more important is what happened after that .
Why didn't you post Itachi's feats ? 
Why didn't you adress the rest of my points ? 
And why did you ignored half of my post ?


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah , so ? the whole scene was to hype up his speed compared to the rest of the clowns .
> And what's more important is what happened after that .
> Why didn't you post Itachi's feats ?
> Why didn't you adress the rest of my points ?
> And why did you ignored half of my post ?


I already stated his feats
- him fighting on par with kcm naruto and bee whom are all top tiers in the speed department
- the fastest seal maker that even the sharingan can't follow
- reacted to kirin while half blind and gravely ill
even without sharingan itachi would perfectlybreact to minato, in order for speed to be a major factor in a matchup, the opponent has to be waaay faster than his/her opponent, in this case that does'nt exist cuz itachi already fought with opponents that are top tier in speed and fought evenly with them, sO i dont really see the point in the speed arguement


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

Lmao at Itachi being hurt more. Minato still can't afford to look in Itachi's eyes for the whole fight lest he end up like Orochimaru or Killer Bee through a casual exchange. He also has no knowledge on Karasu bushin genjutsu nor Ephemeral. Chances are, he is getting genjutsu'd in this fight. The proported Minato defense to genjutsu usually pertains to him zipping around in FTG through blindspots, or ending the fight before it's a factor. Won't be doing that here without his FTG. Minato is faster in movement speed, sealweaving goes to Itachi, striking speed is a toss up. Minato moved enough to toss his kunai up vs V2 Ei and via element of surprise was able to shove a rasengan into Obito despite Kamui. But Itachi was easily keeping up with Hebi Sasuke speed despite being termially ill, exhancged blows with KCM Nardo/Bee in very close quarters, and blocked the latters 7 sword dance with a kunai. Reaction speed is also very close. Minato mentally reacted to V2 Ei and could even move a bit, but Itachi reacted to Kirin, and no knowledge mukai tensei with susanoo defenses. Minato has sensing in various forms but he has to concentrate to sense in depth, or a random presence of chakra appearing like vs Obito. Itachi obviously has the benefit of sharingan prediction and seal copying/deciphering here along with better weaving speed in general.

Knowledge obviously hurts Minato here. Itachi doesn't know about KB but that's a common jutsu amongst Konoha. He may or may not know about rasengan, but Minato has to get close in the first place which is about as deadly as him with a kunai. Without FTG his ability to tag Itachi will be hindered as getting past pre cog is a bitch. Meanwhile Minato has no idea about Itachi's Kage/Crow bushin nor their derived jutsu in Kage bushin explosion and Crow genjutsu respectively. He has no idea Itachi can use suiton (I'll give him Katon since he knows Itachi is an Uchiha).

Minato's whole fighting style is compromised by the restrictions in this fight. FTG is a staple of his OP'ness and while still overtly Kage level without it, it diminishes his elite stats in versatility, defense, and offense. Shushin is great, but by feats he is >= Base Killer Bee in speed. Killer Bee cannot blitz sharingan users in pure speed, he can overload their ability to perceive with his complex swordplay (although he failed to tag Itachi before the latter darted from him by dozens of meters.), but even in V1 Sasuke physically dodged him while compromised mid air, and Kisame could perceive V2's blitz attmept, he just couldn't absorb enough of the blow to save himself. Similarly sasuke also outmanuevered V1 Ei in CqC. I have no reason to believe he is unscalable to Itachi, nor do I have reason to believe that Base Minato is faster than V1 Ei is his both naturally fast and increasing the potency of his CNS/PNS via raiton. So he is not voerhwelming Itachi with speed. He has a killer with rasengan, but so do various forms of Nardo and Jiraiya; Kakashi and Sauce also had a similar finisher in raikiri. You still have top land it and without FTG those chances fall against Itachi. All sealing here is useless because he can't form a seal on Itachi without the latter reacting, Itachi has no big summons so that seal is useless, and RDS is a tie as a last resort for Minato (Which means he has to survive that long).

Meanwhile Itachi's method of operation simply loses a moderate amount of potency. He doesn't have Tsukuyomi, but he has 3 tomoe and other genjutsu, he doesn't have Ama, but he has Sameheda burning Katons, and suiton, he doesn't have Susanoo, but Susanoo is always a last resort or proactive defense against a severe threat, Itachi's most consistent and efficient means of avoiding bodily damage is via distractions, bushin feints, and genjutsu. Itachi feinted KCM Nardo and Bee, and KCM Nardo reacted via intent sensing which is > Minato's sensing. Itachi feinted Hebi Sasuke mid shuriken battle so much so that Sasuke had zero clue, Itachi has feinted SM Kabuto despite hsi sage sensing, and snakes perusing the cave and feeding him info. Susanoo's offensive potency is top notch but Itachi still has deadly elementals, an explosion clone, elite weapon play, and genjutsu to null resistance to attacks. All these mechanisms are available to Itachi here, and since he isn't using MS that means he will have much more chakra to use. The only taxing jutsu is Kage bushin and the subsequent explosion bushin, but they can safely be used about once or twice and Itachi can feint with crow bushins at lower cost.

In summation, Minato is hurt more by the restrictions here. Minato is not a sage mode user, and that adds the extra restriction of him not being able to follow Itachi's eyes during the fight. Itachi still has good versatility across all fields here, and his style of fighting is not as compromised as Minato's is. Minato will eventually get genjutsu'd, if he doesn't focus explciitly on Itachi's upper body he will miss an opputrunities to catch a peak at his hands, and will eventually run into an attack, a trap (like bushin explosion) or a feint/counter attack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - him fighting on par with kcm naruto and bee whom are all top tiers in the speed department


He never engaed with Bee in cqc , and he never faced KCM Naruto's shunshin .


uchihakil said:


> - the fastest seal maker that even the sharingan can't follow


He is fast at making ahnd seals , but he's not the fastest .


uchihakil said:


> - reacted to kirin while half blind and gravely ill


Yes , with Susanoo , which is a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
-----------------
Now , let's get back to what's important , i asked for foot speed , as in traveling from point A to point B speed which is where Minato is above Itachi by a huge margin by feats .


uchihakil said:


> even without sharingan itachi would perfectlybreact to minato,


Ok , i'm not sure if i should take this seriously now .


uchihakil said:


> in order for speed to be a major factor in a matchup, the opponent has to be waaay faster than his/her opponent, in this case tha


No , no , and no .
Itachi , like all Uchiha needs his Sharingan to fight , saying otherwise is trolling , 
Madara has comparable speed to Hashirama yet he needs his EMS to fight him .
Sasuke tried to attack Naruto w/o his Sharingan in their VotE2 battle = couldn't see Naruto's counter attack = Sasuke gets punched into a cliff .
Itachi needs his Sharingan , otherwise , he'd be dead w/o zero effort .


Dr. White said:


> Lmao at Itachi being hurt more


Lmfao if you think 3TS Itachi is beating Minato here .


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Lmfao if you think 3TS Itachi is beating Minato here .


Okay


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> load of crap


fixed


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> fixed


I like Minato too but he doesn't have a good shot here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I like Minato too but he doesn't have a good shot here


If you say so


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He never engaed with Bee in cqc , and he never faced KCM Naruto's shunshin .
> 
> He is fast at making ahnd seals , but he's not the fastest .
> 
> ...


Itachi is fast with shuunshin, he used sheer speed to shuunshin behind bee not sharingan precog (you seem to think he aint fast without the need of sharingan but he is) sharingan even makes him more dangerous cuz it enablew him fight faster and more reflexive xters like kcm naruto and sm kabuto. As i said, speed is no factor in this matchup an itachi who can shuunshin behind bee and had to warn him is more than fast enough to fight minato sharingan just gives him the edge


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Lets do this again. Raikage would've blitzed minato if it was'nt for ftg and ms sasuke who was inferior to itachi could track raikage


You can "do this" as many times as you like. But it wont change anything...

MS Sasuke =/= Itachi. And Ay never touched Minato. Thanks to hiraishin or whatever. The fact is, Ay never blitzed him. Shoulda, coulda, woulda means nothing. You're basing all of this on pure speculation.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 21, 2016)

We didn't really see Minato's blinding footspeed at work against a young and inexperienced Obito did we.....hmmmm.

Nor was it useful in saving Kakashi against fodder - he relied on FTG. I wonder why....

Even against fodders Minato used FTG. Hmmmm.....Footspeed....hmmmm


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> You can "do this" as many times as you like. But it wont change anything...
> 
> MS Sasuke =/= Itachi. And Ay never touched Minato. Thanks to hiraishin or whatever. The fact is, Ay never blitzed him. Shoulda, coulda, woulda means nothing. You're basing all of this on pure speculation.


No, stop trying to cop out from basic evidence. Minato would have had a hole punched in his face without FTG. That is a fact. The best Minato could have mustered would be a pat on the shoulder as Ei's mist pulverizesd his nose and shot shards of bone into his brain. Sasuke can mentally react to V2 Ei, the whole reason Ei went into v2 is because he couldn't hit Sasuke in an exhange of blows (he had to grapple after trapping Sasuke) with V1. So while it wasn'
t an A to B shushin like it was vs Minato he still moved faster than MS Sasuke could focus on him like a camera lense, which is why it ended up spawning on the samurai. So it's safe to say he was using some fo V2 finest speeds, and Sasuke mentally reacted. Without FTG combined with his natural shushin/striking speed, he isn't as potent in pure time to travel around the field, and his ability to position himself in advantageous spaces (like vs Ei). The reason Ei never hit Minato was because of FTG. The fight literally displayed the dynamic between the two's movesets. Ei is faster, Minato's reactions and FTG allow him to avoid/counter attack with enough efficiency. People also love to avoid the fact that Ei literally thought of a counter after one incidence of facing it and he is not the brightest crayon in the box. Couple this with the fact that Minato never killed Ei, despite Minato's no nonsense attitude and them facing eachother many times. Whcih means Ei was competent enough in durability and speed to keep up with Minato. Base Bee is capable of dealing with both V2 attacks like lariat and capable of predicting Hirashin jumps. Minato is not on either of those levels.

And Itachi easily scales to MS Sasuke in reactions. He literally blocked Bee's seven sword dance with a kunai while sasuke had a sword. He dodged Bee's swing from inches behind his back as well. Itachi is heavily portrayed to be the faster of the two physically and until post Kabuto fight, he had better reactions as well.


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> You can "do this" as many times as you like. But it wont change anything...
> 
> MS Sasuke =/= Itachi. And Ay never touched Minato. Thanks to hiraishin or whatever. The fact is, Ay never blitzed him. Shoulda, coulda, woulda means nothing. You're basing all of this on pure speculation.


I'm using ms sasuke cuz anyone with half a brain knows ms itachi is faster than ms sasuke, so someone inferior to itachi accomplishing a feat means itachi can do better, you have a brain yea? Use it


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi is fast with shuunshin, he used sheer speed to shuunshin behind bee not sharingan precog (you seem to think he aint fast without the need of sharingan but he is) sharingan even makes him more dangerous cuz it enablew him fight faster and more reflexive xters like kcm naruto and sm kabuto. As i said, speed is no factor in this matchup an itachi who can shuunshin behind bee and had to warn him is more than fast enough to fight minato sharingan just gives him the edge


Let give some help so you can draw the right picture .
Minato is faster than Itachi on foot , fact . He has better reaction speed than the MS , or SM Naruto who also has a comparable reaction speed to the sharingan , fact . Minato has faster hands , fact .
These are all facts , that you still unable to disprove or debunk using evidence from the manga .
SM Naruto stated that he has a better reaction than KCM .
SM Naruto dodged the Raikage who he deemed pretty fast , at the last second .
SM Naruto is caught up by 50 % Kyuubi speed .
Minato outsped a point blank 100 % Kyuubi strike from a long ass distance .
So , he outperformed a stronger , faster Kyuubi than the one who SM Naruto couldn't handle his speed , the SM Naruto who deemed his reaction speed to be greater than KCM .
In a clash between the two , the one who has a better speed , faster hands , and faster reaction speed (aka Minato) is he one who's gonna hit his opponent firts .
Rasengan then ends his life .
Honestly , you're fighting a losing a battle here , just concede and save your time


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No, stop trying to cop out from basic evidence. Minato would have had a hole punched in his face without FTG. That is a fact. The best Minato could have mustered would be a pat on the shoulder as Ei's mist pulverizesd his nose and shot shards of bone into his brain. Sasuke can mentally react to V2 Ei, the whole reason Ei went into v2 is because he couldn't hit Sasuke in an exhange of blows (he had to grapple after trapping Sasuke) with V1. So while it wasn'
> t an A to B shushin like it was vs Minato he still moved faster than MS Sasuke could focus on him like a camera lense, which is why it ended up spawning on the samurai. So it's safe to say he was using some fo V2 finest speeds, and Sasuke mentally reacted. Without FTG combined with his natural shushin/striking speed, he isn't as potent in pure time to travel around the field, and his ability to position himself in advantageous spaces (like vs Ei). The reason Ei never hit Minato was because of FTG. The fight literally displayed the dynamic between the two's movesets. Ei is faster, Minato's reactions and FTG allow him to avoid/counter attack with enough efficiency. People also love to avoid the fact that Ei literally thought of a counter after one incidence of facing it and he is not the brightest crayon in the box. Couple this with the fact that Minato never killed Ei, despite Minato's no nonsense attitude and them facing eachother many times. Whcih means Ei wasn't competent enough in durability and speed to keep up with Minato. Base Bee is capable of dealing with both V2 attacks like lariat and capable of predicting Hirashin jumps. Minato is not on either of those levels.
> 
> And Itachi easily scales to MS Sasuke in reactions. He literally blocked Bee's seven sword dance with a kunai while sasuke had a sword. He dodged Bee's swing from inches behind his back as well. Itachi is heavily portrayed to be the faster of the two physically and until post Kabuto fight, he had better reactions as well.


True, itachi was faster than any version of sasuke pre juubito fight


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Let give some help so you can draw the right picture .
> Minato is faster than Itachi on foot , fact . He has better reaction speed than the MS , or SM Naruto who also has a comparable reaction speed to the sharingan , fact . Minato has faster hands , fact .
> These are all facts , that you still unable to disprove or debunk using evidence from the manga .
> SM Naruto stated that he has a better reaction than KCM .
> ...


WTF am i reading, since when are hands fast? And since when are your claims facts, and since when is minato faster than ms precog? Dont get me started on that, its as clear as daylight minato needed ftg to evade kamui, or is there a scan showing obito not been able to track minatos footspeed? And if you mean the instance when minato grabbed baby naruto that just goes to show minato has superior speedfeats cOmpared to teen obito who is also slower than itachi which prooves nothing


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Not sure why people are giving Itachi MS feats when this thread is about 3TS Itachi


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2016)

If Sage Naruto could barely react to Madara's flicker then Minato is going to pressure Itachi with his flicker heavily. Itachi is definitely the slower of the two here and he clearly loses when one considers Boss Summonings and stamina levels.


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not sure why people are giving Itachi MS feats when this thread is about 3TS Itachi


Except he dodged V1 Bee and V1 Raikage with 3 tomoe


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> WTF am i reading, since when are hands fast? And since when are your claims facts, and since when is minato faster than ms precog? Dont get me started on that, its as clear as daylight minato needed ftg to evade kamui, or is there a scan showing obito not been able to track minatos footspeed? And if you mean the instance when minato grabbed baby naruto that just goes to show minato has superior speedfeats cOmpared to teen obito who is also slower than itachi which prooves nothing


And you've yet to give a proper argument  , Minato needs FTG to escpe Kamui , too bad for you that's a feat for Kamui , which is irrelevant since Kamui is faster than anything Itachi has in this fight , i know it , you know it 
I repeat , this thread is about 3TS Itachi , not MS Itachi , i repeat 3TS only .
So don't blame me if i'm not giving Itachi feats he doesn't have  , Minato has better reaction speed than SM Naruto , who has a better reaction speed than KCM Naruto , try for once to finish off reading my reply before you jump to making your own posts  
I'll post Minato's feats again , do both of us a favor and try to not ignore them this time 


cctr9 said:


> , teleported the Juubi's TBB which is the size of the perfect Susanoo to the already marked sea , and then he spread his Kunais around the Juubi which is the size of Island Turtle before anyone could understand WTF just happened .
> - He shunshin'ed across Konoha in seconds before Kurama could finish off his TBB .
> - He shunshin'ed across a long distance in and out to save Kushina from a point blank Kyuubi strike who at half power was too fast for SM Naruto who has a better reaction speed than KCM Naruto .
> And all of his other feats against Tobi .




I'm gonna explain again , why Minato has the better reaction feats , do us a favor and don't tap dance around the argument 


cctr9 said:


> SM Naruto stated that he has a better reaction than KCM .
> SM Naruto dodged the Raikage who he deemed pretty fast , at the last second .
> SM Naruto is caught up by 50 % Kyuubi speed .
> Minato outsped a point blank 100 % Kyuubi strike from a long ass distance .
> So , he outperformed a stronger , faster Kyuubi than the one who SM Naruto couldn't handle his speed , the SM Naruto who deemed his reaction speed to be greater than KCM .


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Except he dodged V1 Bee and V1 Raikage with 3 tomoe


He's talking about SM Kabuto and V2 A


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

Veracity said:


> If Sage Naruto could barely react to Madara's flicker then Minato is going to pressure Itachi with his flicker heavily. Itachi is definitely the slower of the two here and he clearly loses when one considers Boss Summonings and stamina levels.




< Comparing Sage Madara who fought Bjuu's to Base Minato shushin
< Forgetting Nardo was hit Ask Mist prior
< MS Itachi Itachi who feinted SM Kabuto and Feinted him, and weaves faster than 3 tomoe being severly pressured without FTG. 
< Boss Summons without chakra rods get turned against their host. Oro needed to give Manda 200 sacrifices a day for Manda to serve him, Sasuke, a brat by Manda's standards, made Manda kill himself while protecting Sasuke. The fact that Shikaku hyoes Itachi being able to genjutsu dozens of people across ranges doesn't help one bit if you argue Minato summons more.

so..Nah.


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

Minato's significant, speed feats can't be considered to be foot speed feats, like all his feats when fighting the Kyuubi


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He's talking about SM Kabuto and V2 A


Sasuke and Itachi reacting to things with Susanoo scales to their mental reactions. Sasuke didn't follow Ei via precog so MS cogntion would do absolutely nothing there, and Itachi also reacted to Kirin with Susanoo conjure, and in that scenario as well sharingan pre cog could not help (unless you wanna say Itachi is sub relativistic and can see the different lightning steps during cloud to ground lightning ). So MS Sasuke "reaction" feats are not so much because of the MS but basic sharingan pre cog, and in other cases (such as the ones I just outlined ) the users mental reactions in general.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> < Comparing Sage Madara who fought Bjuu's to Base Minato shushin


You mean blind base Madara


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> < Comparing Sage Madara who fought Bjuu's to Base Minato shushin
> < Forgetting Nardo was hit Ask Mist prior
> < MS Itachi Itachi who feinted SM Kabuto and Feinted him, and weaves faster than 3 tomoe being severly pressured without FTG.
> < Boss Summons without chakra rods get turned against their host. Oro needed to give Manda 200 sacrifices a day for Manda to serve him, Sasuke, a brat by Manda's standards, made Manda kill himself while protecting Sasuke. The fact that Shikaku hyoes Itachi being able to genjutsu dozens of people across ranges doesn't help one bit if you argue Minato summons more.
> ...



1. It was Blind Base Madara. Do you think he's faster on his toes to Minato?
2. I don't know what you are referring to in the second part.
3. I don't think Itachi's reactions are that much superior to War Arc Sage Naruto's, so basically Minato will be right in his face like Madara was in Naruto's.
4. Im assuming Minato just has Bunta fire off elemental attacks from a distance. If Bunta gets caught Minato desummons him. I think Itachi would end up losing more chakra than Minato attempting to control a massive boss summoning.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Sasuke and Itachi reacting to things with Susanoo scales to their mental reactions. Sasuke didn't follow Ei via precog so MS cogntion would do absolutely nothing there, and Itachi also reacted to Kirin with Susanoo conjure, and in that scenario as well sharingan pre cog could not help (unless you wanna say Itachi is sub relativistic and can see the different lightning steps during cloud to ground lightning ). So MS Sasuke "reaction" feats are not so much because of the MS but basic sharingan pre cog, and in other cases (such as the ones I just outlined ) the users mental reactions in general.


That's great and all , but without the ability to erect a defense at a thought (e.g Susanoo , enton shield) , that mental reaction is as good as useless


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You mean blind base Madara


Damn that is true. Not sure how people are acting like that one scene transfers as a feat for Minato he can use against any high tier though. Nardo blocked it That's a weak argument given Madara's top tier status, and the obvious bs'ness of that scene. Base Madara flicker of V1 AAA blitz? If Minato could blitz people with shushin on sage mode reactions levels he wouldn't even need FTG. 

Also we would have to accept Sai being on their general level as he blocked to


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

@cctr9, 3 tomoe itachi was casually i repeat casually fighting bee, outspeeding and evading his strikes, minato on the otherhand could'nt do the same to a younger kid bee, make sense out of that,bee is a xter they both fought, and itachi has shown better fighting speed and reflex out of the two and minato fought a younger less experienced bee, there is no better example than this


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Minato also reacted the Raikage with FTG activation , that's also a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .


Actually minato did a physical one as well, he threw a kunai before A could touch him 

OT

Minato wins, hes still too fast for itachi, and itachi gets shit diffed by an odama lvl rasengan as he has no defensive techs anymore. Also Gama trio gg/ FCD gg. 



Minatos Base sunshin is also ridiculous but next to no one acknowledges that, least of all itachis fans, his base speed is insanely underrated. He blitzed MS obito and saved Naruots life. He shunshined across the entire leaf village before kurama could finish an already partially formed TBB and murked kurama at the same time. He arrived at the juubi battlefield ahead of tobirama, and hashirama and hiruzen, wayyy ahead of em, as he had time to stop the juubis attack, spread kunai all around the massive beast, and have a casual chat with his son before any of them arrived.

Minato mid diffs at best, same as if they were unrestricted honestly.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> minato on the otherhand could'nt do the same to a younger kid bee, make sense out of that,


Minato literally made a career out of wiping his ass with AAAA and his brother throughout his life...they never once beat the man...thats way more impressive than trading blows for a few seconds...


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> @cctr9, 3 tomoe itachi was casually i repeat casually fighting bee, outspeeding and evading his strikes, minato on the otherhand could'nt do the same to a younger kid bee, make sense out of that,bee is a xter they both fought, and itachi has shown better fighting speed and reflex out of the two and minato fought a younger less experienced bee, there is no better example than this




Minato fucking tagged Bee with an FTG seal w/o him or his brother knowing in a two on one fight , he teleported at Bee's back , and didnet even attck .
Itachi didn't outspeed shit , he got behind killer bee , Bee reacted to him , after he turned around , when Bee pulled off his 8 swords , Itachi had no other option but running away .

Read the manga , objectively , i beg of you


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

Veracity said:


> 1. It was Blind Base Madara. Do you think he's faster on his toes to Minato?


That is true, but I still feel you are abusing scaling with an invalid feat. Madara charged up a major shushin, it wasn't some passing casual shushin. He then used it to knock Nardo and Sai back in succession to reach Hashi. both people blocked so it wasn't like their defences were passed, and if you believe that means Madara and everyone on or > his level of speed can blitz all high tiers, idk what to tell you. We'll have to agree to disagree. 



> 2. I don't know what you are referring to in the second part.


Didn't madara use Katon Mist jutsu before blitzing them?



> 3. I don't think Itachi's reactions are that much superior to War Arc Sage Naruto's, so basically Minato will be right in his face like Madara was in Naruto's.


I doubt this. Danger sensing allows pinpoint sensing of chakra masses/living things in the environment and gives a psuedo sight via in depth sensing. Itachi's pre cogs gives him different benefits in being able to see the mapped out path of trajectories. Itachi though literally has casting speed > 3 tomoe pre cog, Feint speeds that legitmately beat a Sage sensor in Kabuto (Who also had snakes), and movement speed akin to Pre Sage Sasuke and Killer Bee. Minato is not pressuring these types of people with speed alone.



> 4. Im assuming Minato just has Bunta fire off elemental attacks from a distance. If Bunta gets caught Minato desummons him. I think Itachi would end up losing more chakra than Minato attempting to control a massive boss summoning.


-Assuming that Minato for some reason decides to use summoning against a lone ninja and do so outisde of eye range for Itachi. When have we seena  summoner create range in order to summon? When have we ever seenany of the frog users summon a large summon when in intimate fight with a human who has no summons? Only instances are S/T summoning from Jiraiya because it isn't meant to be a typical ally summoning jutsu, it's meant to BFR.
- Itachi can genjutsu from range via his Crow genjutsu/ ephemeral (mechanism) and Shikaku hype (precedence for him doing so in verse).



cctr9 said:


> That's great and all , but without the ability to erect a defense at a thought (e.g Susanoo , enton shield) , that mental reaction is as good as useless


True, but it should scale to genjutsu casting speed. Itachi's feint speed is also right behind his reactions speeds given sharingan tracking can't follow it, nor can SM/snake sensing combined.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Actually minato did a physical one as well, he threw a kunai before A could touch him


Not sure how i forgot that


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Actually minato did a physical one as well, he threw a kunai before A could touch him
> 
> OT
> 
> ...



There's nothing that proves that speed feat was shunshin and not FTG, with the Kyuubi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> There's nothing that proves that speed feat was shunshin and not FTG, with the Kyuubi.


Minato didnt have a FTG mark on the kyuubi...ergo...base speed...


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not sure how i forgot that


Got ur back fam

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> True, but it should scale to genjutsu casting speed. Itachi's feint speed is also right behind his reactions speeds given sharingan tracking can't follow it, nor can SM/snake sensing combined.


SM sensing only allows you to sense more than just one chakra signature in the place , it doesn't tell whether or not the guy in front of you is a clone or real  .
Minato can use clones as well , and his put FTG seals around the Island turtle sized Juubi pretty fast .


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Got ur back fam


Let's tear this thread apart


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Minato fucking tagged Bee with an FTG seal w/o him or his brother knowing in a two on one fight , he teleported at Bee's back , and didnet even attck .
> Itachi didn't outspeed shit , he got behind killer bee , Bee reacted to him , after he turned around , when Bee pulled off his 8 swords , Itachi had no other option but running away .
> 
> Read the manga , objectively , i beg of you



Did'nt attack him cuz bee had a sword on minato too, and itachi had to warn bee before bee reacted, and being better at kenjutsu =/= to beingbfaster, dude was wielding 7 swords while itachi only had a kunai, and even then he parred the swords a couple of times


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> and have a casual chat with his son before any of them arrived



Yeah... conversations in this manga have been shown to be extremely inconsistent. Such as a jinchuuriki and their Bijuu chatting it up in the time it takes for them to hop across to another tree.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Did'nt attack him cuz bee had a sword on minato too


Um no , Minato didn't attack because he had no killing intent .
What did i say about reading the manga *objectively* ? 


uchihakil said:


> and itachi had to warn bee before bee reacted


Bee said that he was already on it , meaning Itachi's warning wasn't necessary for him to react .


uchihakil said:


> and being better at kenjutsu =/= to beingbfaster, dude was wielding 7 swords while itachi only had a kunai, and even then he parred the swords a couple of times


So how the hell did come up with the conclusion that Itachi kept up with Bee if he didn't keep up in the 1st place ??


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> That is true, but I still feel you are abusing scaling with an invalid feat. Madara charged up a major shushin, it wasn't some passing casual shushin. He then used it to knock Nardo and Sai back in succession to reach Hashi. both people blocked so it wasn't like their defences were passed, and if you believe that means Madara and everyone on or > his level of speed can blitz all high tiers, idk what to tell you. We'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> Didn't madara use Katon Mist jutsu before blitzing them?
> ...




We know that Minato is faster than Madara though. It's not a " everyone on his general tier thing", it's more of a Minato is confirmed to be faster and is hyped for speed even without FTG thing. I can see why you would think the feat is inconsistent, but the same can be said about a lot of things. What makes you think that his flicker was major or anything? And I wouldn't overhype the feat if Naruto, someone physically on another level to Madara, wasn't thrown off his feet onto his ass. That's a pretty good indication that he was caught off guard via speed. 

That was after he was fucking with Sasuke. After he got Sage Mode. 

I think Itachi has better reactions to Naruto( not by much considering the maneuver Naruto put on AAA) but not by a large margin. The gap is probably just as wide as the gap between Madara and Minato in footspeed, therefore I see Itachi in the same position as Naruto was.

We really don't know what Minato would specifically do considering we only saw a snippet of his battle with Raikage and we know a boss summoning isn't effective against Kamui. At the same time, we shouldn't expect to see Minato think the exact same when we've never seen him battle without FTG. I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't use a boss summoning. It doesn't hurt him here.

If Bunta gets any knowledge on Itachi, I don't see him getting instantly caught in genjustu, especially considering Itachi can't  really hurt him outside of genjustu and if he really wants to, he's going to expel a great deal of chakra. We know who wins the battle of attrition here.


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato didnt have a FTG mark on the kyuubi...ergo...base speed...



Why does he need to have markers on the Kyuubi when he has markers in Konoha?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> Why does he need to have markers on the Kyuubi when he has markers in Konoha?


He shunshined the whole way, there was no kunai seen, or a marking of any kind that was emphasized, like every other time minato has ever teleported using FTG, it was clearly his base speed as no such markings were even remotely hinted at.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah... conversations in this manga have been shown to be extremely inconsistent. Such as a jinchuuriki and their Bijuu chatting it up in the time it takes for them to hop across to another tree.


Pretty sure biju convos have been stated to exist outside the natural flow of time but i cant recall.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Thre's no sign or sfx that might indicate Minato teleported to the Kyuubi's location with FTG


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

Minato can troll what Itachi dishes out with raw Shunshin speed, tho it'd be more difficult than using FTG. Meanwhile he has to avoid eye contact, but I think he can do that. Yatai Kuzushi can set up an opening for a blindside attack. Minato, high extreme diff.


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He shunshined the whole way, there was no kunai seen, or a marking of any kind that was emphasized, like every other time minato has ever teleported using FTG, it was clearly his base speed as no such markings were even remotely hinted at.


The Marker that is teleported to isn't shown every time he uses a FTG related technique. Like here


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Um no , Minato didn't attack because he had no killing intent .
> What did i say about reading the manga *objectively* ?
> 
> Bee said that he was already on it , meaning Itachi's warning wasn't necessary for him to react .
> ...



Cuz itachi evaded bees blows casually, even when bee was in itachis blindspot and came with a sneak attack, killing intent has nothing to do with bee having a blade on him, they would've stalemated if minato decided to attack, itachi with sharingan is gonna see minato like a baloon falling.


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## Veracity (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You can't just take base logic (person A got tagged, so person B is faster) and apply it without contextual (in verse situational factors) and meta analysis (alaysis done with our knowledge as readers of a created series).
> 
> First we must consider that Madara charged his shushin which people rarely do, especially mid fight as sensors can sense build up and dojutsu users can see chakra in the body, but he didn't blitz anyone. They weren't pressed like Minato was vs V2 Ei, or how Diedara was vs Hebi Sasuke at close range. IF Diedara had stayed in range, or if Minato didn't have FTG both would have lost to pure speed and gotten killed. Do you honestly think Blind alive Madara is fast enough to constantly pressure War Arc SM Nardo? That makes zero sense.
> 
> ...



> Actually I Can because I know Minato> Blind Madara in terms of footspeed. I guess I also missed the indication that Madara charged his flicker??

Naruto doesn't need to be that pressured. I never said he was blizted, but it was cleared he was pressured MUCH more than against AAA. So Minato is faster than him. I guess Madara is fast enough to pressure Sage Naruto. Also consider the fact that Naruto stated that he needed to attack at the last second and could maneuver so well around that the Sandimae Raikage that he could push his own arm into his body lmao. That's brazy. Consider the distance KCM Naruto dodged Ay from, consider the the fact that once Naruto activated his flicker he basically one stepped out of the area and consider the fact that KCM Naruto has the most inconsistent feats in the entire manga.

How much knowledge did Minato have on Obito when he made that first swing? I thought it was clear he was heavily surprised by his ability. The second time he was also getting accostumed to his abilities, but we saw him one panel Obito like seconds after.

I agree on him surviving against AY with FTG.


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm sleepy af so, peace out


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> The Marker that is teleported to isn't shown every time he uses a FTG related technique. Like here


We clearly see the area he sent it to tho, and we clearly see him using an FTG kunai to send the TBB away, heavily implying he used FTG related mechanics to use the barrier, but none of theses factors are present when he blitzes kurama. Meaning it was his base speed.

Also the spectators commented on the Barrier, saying they knew it was his space/time tech, but none of the spectators, one of whom was the third hokage, said anything about an S/T tech when he murked kurama. Only when he flew away with kurama did anyone say a S/T tech was used.

Ergo, base speed was used to get to kurama.


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## Dr. White (Dec 21, 2016)

Will respond to other stuff later, gotta peace.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Cuz itachi evaded bees blows casually, even when bee was in itachis blindspot and came with a sneak attack, killing intent has nothing to do with bee having a blade on him, they would've stalemated if minato decided to attack, itachi with sharingan is gonna see minato like a baloon falling.


No , no , and no .
If Minato decided to kill Bee , he would have done that with utter ease , as his striking speed is faster than Bee , by feats , he threw a Kunai behind A before he could reach him at all .
Minato already tagged Killer Bee with a seal while dealing with both him and A , he coud've easily killed him if he wanted , but no killing intent .
Thats the logical conclusion based on what the manga shows , not your biased , Uchiha loving interpretation .
The rest of the post is irrelevant , as you already acknowledged , Itachi never engaed with Bee's 8 sword dance .


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## uchihakil (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , no , and no .
> If Minato decided to kill Bee , he would have done that with utter ease , as his striking speed is faster than Bee , by feats , he threw a Kunai behind A before he could reach him at all .
> Minato already tagged Killer Bee with a seal while dealing with both him and A , he coud've easily killed him if he wanted , but no killing intent .
> Thats the logical conclusion based on what the manga shows , not your biased , Uchiha loving interpretation .
> The rest of the post is irrelevant , as you already acknowledged , Itachi never engaed with Bee's 8 sword dance .


Minato did'nt engage bee in acrobat either, i will like to see how minato w/o ftg stops bees acrobat with a kunai, he fucking can't, and you thinking its irrelevant means you dont wanna accept the feats, itachi evaded bees slash while ighting kcm naruto, and bee was hella serious, and itachi dodged that while bee was behind him, and i'm gonna sleep now so later


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> We clearly see the area he sent it to tho, and we clearly see him using an FTG kunai to send the TBB away, heavily implying he used FTG related mechanics to use the barrier, but none of theses factors are present when he blitzes kurama. Meaning it was his base speed.
> 
> Also the spectators commented on the Barrier, saying they knew it was his space/time tech, but none of the spectators, one of whom was the third hokage, said anything about an S/T tech when he murked kurama. Only when he flew away with kurama did anyone say a S/T tech was used.
> 
> Ergo, base speed was used to get to kurama.





But he sent it somewhere and FTG sends things to other markers. Just because they didn't say "Minato used FTG" doesn't mean he didn't.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Minato did'nt engage bee in acrobat either, i will like to see how minato w/o ftg stops bees acrobat with a kunai, he fucking can't, and you thinking its irrelevant means you dont wanna accept the feats, itachi evaded bees slash while ighting kcm naruto, and bee was hella serious, and itachi dodged that while bee was behind him, and i'm gonna sleep now so later


Minato can't beat Bee in a sword fight , yes , it has something to do with kenjutsu skills , not speed , not reaction speed .
I have a scan of Minato engaging with both Killer bee and A , and managing to put a tag on Bee w/o them knowing .
While you got nothing .
I have a scan of Cee saying that Minato is comparable to A in reaction speed , so that puts him on the level of MS in terms of reaction speed , which is above what the 3TS can provide , i have scans of Minato showing better reaction speed than SM Naruto and KCM Naruto .
While you have nothing .
And you keep tap dancing around the arguments and changing the subject , because of you had any sort of argumentation here , you'd have delivered what i asked from you 10 posts ago .
Did you prove that Itachi is faster than Minato on foot ? no you couldn't .
Did you prove that Itachi has a better reaction speed than Minato ? No you couldn't .
You have no argument to back up what you are saying , no evidence at all , and you keep ignoring 90 % of my points .
And then you disagree when i say Minato spanks Itachi ? 
The hell type of argumentation is this ?


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> But he sent it somewhere and FTG sends things to other markers. Just because they didn't say "Minato used FTG" doesn't mean he didn't.


You keep bringing up this point over and over , but you have nothing to support what you are saying .
If there's no evidence that he used FTG in there , then the only conclusion that makes sense is that he got there on foot .
What is you evidence that he used FTG and not foot speed other than " i can't believe he got there using foot speed , so he must've used FTG " ?


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You keep bringing up this point over and over , but you have nothing to support what you are saying .
> If there's no evidence that he used FTG in there , then the only conclusion that makes sense is that he got there on foot .
> What is you evidence that he used FTG and not foot speed other than " i can't believe he got there using foot speed , so he must've used FTG " ?



I don't need evidence that he used FTG, you guys are making the assertion that he used foot speed.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> But he sent it somewhere and FTG sends things to other markers. Just because they didn't say "Minato used FTG" doesn't mean he didn't.


My point was, each time he uses FTG, its clearly emphasized that he did, and its clearly emphasized what marker he used, like in the multiple scans i posted earlier, but no such emphasis was made, so it was his base speed.

He had no opportunity to mark the kyuubi, ever, and he needs a mark to utilize FTG, no mark, means no FTG, means base speed.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> I don't need evidence that he used FTG


Yes you do...because *minato himself does* in order to use it...


Trolling said:


> you guys are making the assertion that he used foot speed.


Because he has legs...and he didnt have a FTG mark placed...ergo...


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> I don't need evidence that he used FTG, you guys are making the assertion that he used foot speed.


Oh yes you do , there's no evidence he used FTG in there . no Kunais were in that erea , no tags on Kurama .


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Oh yes you do , there's no evidence he used FTG in there . no Kunais were in that erea , no tags on Kurama .



Just because it didn't show a marker where he teleported to, doesn't mean he didn't use a FTG technique, as I already shown here: Only when he flew away with kurama did anyone say a S/T tech was used.


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## Android (Dec 21, 2016)

Trolling said:


> Just because it didn't show a marker where he teleported to, doesn't mean he didn't use a FTG technique, as I already shown here: Only when he flew away with kurama did anyone say a S/T tech was used.


That's an S/T barrier , if the TBB is teleported with an FTG in the 1st place , then it's gonna pop up in a place where theres an FTG marking as well , there's no need to show an FTG marking there , just a simple understanding of how S/T barrier works


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## Bookworm (Dec 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> That's an S/T barrier , if the TBB is teleported with an FTG in the 1st place , then it's gonna pop up in a place where theres an FTG marking as well , there's no need to show an FTG marking there , just a simple understanding of how S/T barrier works



So your saying that you knew how it worked when it first came out?


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## Jad (Dec 21, 2016)

If Minato could Shunshin so fast by moving the distance of Konoha, then why did he need Kakashi to throw the FTG Kunai in order to save Gai from TSB? Why didn't he just blitz it there?


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## Jad (Dec 21, 2016)

I sometimes feel like Minato gets way too bloated. Here it shows Minato and Kakashi reacting and reaching out to Black Zetsu at the same time.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No, stop trying to cop out from basic evidence. Minato would have had a hole punched in his face without FTG. That is a fact. The best Minato could have mustered would be a pat on the shoulder as Ei's mist pulverizesd his nose and shot shards of bone into his brain. Sasuke can mentally react to V2 Ei, the whole reason Ei went into v2 is because he couldn't hit Sasuke in an exhange of blows (he had to grapple after trapping Sasuke) with V1. So while it wasn'
> t an A to B shushin like it was vs Minato he still moved faster than MS Sasuke could focus on him like a camera lense, which is why it ended up spawning on the samurai. So it's safe to say he was using some fo V2 finest speeds, and Sasuke mentally reacted. Without FTG combined with his natural shushin/striking speed, he isn't as potent in pure time to travel around the field, and his ability to position himself in advantageous spaces (like vs Ei). The reason Ei never hit Minato was because of FTG. The fight literally displayed the dynamic between the two's movesets. Ei is faster, Minato's reactions and FTG allow him to avoid/counter attack with enough efficiency. People also love to avoid the fact that Ei literally thought of a counter after one incidence of facing it and he is not the brightest crayon in the box. Couple this with the fact that Minato never killed Ei, despite Minato's no nonsense attitude and them facing eachother many times. Whcih means Ei was competent enough in durability and speed to keep up with Minato. Base Bee is capable of dealing with both V2 attacks like lariat and capable of predicting Hirashin jumps. Minato is not on either of those levels.
> 
> And Itachi easily scales to MS Sasuke in reactions. He literally blocked Bee's seven sword dance with a kunai while sasuke had a sword. He dodged Bee's swing from inches behind his back as well. Itachi is heavily portrayed to be the faster of the two physically and until post Kabuto fight, he had better reactions as well.


lmao. Yes. Ay thought of a counter.  And I'm proud of him for that. But that counter failed. You say Ay is faster, but Ay himself says he isn't


Now if you'd like to provide a scan that states Ay meant to add a disclaimer that his statement only applies to hiraishin, and that he would blitz him without it, I'll be happy to concede

Neither Itachi nor Sasuke fought Minato. So there are no feats for either against him. Ay never touched him. And the damage Ay suffered vs Sasuke was self-inflicted, by attacking his Kagutsuchi Amaterasu Susanoo. Something Itachi can't do

So no. None of that implies Itachi having the upper hand against Minato


uchihakil said:


> I'm using ms sasuke cuz anyone with half a brain knows ms itachi is faster than ms sasuke, so someone inferior to itachi accomplishing a feat means itachi can do better, you have a brain yea? Use it


And as I stated, Sasuke needed Kagutsuchi to damage Ay. Itachi doesn't have that.  Itachi, Sasuke, whoever, isn't keeping up with Minato. 

Show me ANY proof of Itachi being able to hit Minato. Or just talk shit instead and prove how garbage your argument is


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Minato can't beat Bee in a sword fight , yes , it has something to do with kenjutsu skills , not speed , not reaction speed .
> I have a scan of Minato engaging with both Killer bee and A , and managing to put a tag on Bee w/o them knowing .
> While you got nothing .
> I have a scan of Cee saying that Minato is comparable to A in reaction speed , so that puts him on the level of MS in terms of reaction speed , which is above what the 3TS can provide , i have scans of Minato showing better reaction speed than SM Naruto and KCM Naruto .
> ...



Ignoring your points you say, i debunked your claim on minato being faster than ms (w/o ftg that is)
- now you seem to agree that minato wont beat bee in a sword fight (so whats the point of you saying itachi could'nt stop acrobat in the first place if you know it has nothing to do with speed bur sword skill? ) 
- debunked your claim on the hokages reaching the battlefield.
- and your fan fic minato was'nt bloodlusted else he would've beaten bee when clearly it was implied they stalemated, no statement indicated that minato would've moved faster. (I addressed alot of your points)
- and lmfao if you honestly believe that minato has better reaction speed to naruto cuz last time i checked kcm was being compared to minato with ftg, its not really hard to grasp (kcm naruto > raikage >>> minato w/o ftg) so how how the fuuck does minato skips ay and suddenly have faster reflexes than kcm naruto who was shown to surpass both, minato needed ftg to do what kcm naruto did with sheer speed, i dont wanna call you a wanker cuz i hate it when people others that, but you are clearly denying the manga and kishi) yet you claim i dont address your points *smh*
And i'm gonna debunk your claim again, you said we keep bringing itachi's ms feats, so why you keep bringing minatos ftg feats huh? Cuz minato aint got shit on ay in the speed department he needs ftg to surpass ay, so in this debate minato is NOT above ay so stop saying that, the only version above ay is the one with ftg


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

SUDDENLY ITACHI HAS V2 AY SPEED

SUDDENLY MINATO HAS MARKINGS EVERY WHERE .

WAITING FOR SOME ONE TO SAY MINATO TOOK AWAY NARUTO AWAY FROM OBITO BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY MARKED   AIR


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

professor83 said:


> SUDDENLY ITACHI HAS V2 AY SPEED
> 
> SUDDENLY MINATO HAS MARKINGS EVERY WHERE .
> 
> WAITING FOR SOME ONE TO SAY MINATO TOOK AWAY NARUTO AWAY FROM OBITO BECAUSE HE HAD ALREADY MARKED   AIR



Do you know what sharingan does? Lemme tell you what it does, one of its abilities is predicting moves which enable users to combat characters faster than them, nobody said itachi is as fast as ay, but sharingan precog enables slower xters to combat much faster opponents (read the manga). And what does minato grabbing baby naruto prove? It proves one thing which is irrelavant, that minato has faster shuunshin than teen obito (itachi is also faster than teen obito so as i said, whats the point?


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Do you know what sharingan does? Lemme tell you what it does, one of its abilities is predicting moves which enable users to combat characters faster than them, nobody said itachi is as fast as ay, but sharingan precog enables slower xters to combat much faster opponents (read the manga). And what does minato grabbing baby naruto prove? It proves one thing which is irrelavant, that minato has faster shuunshin than teen obito (itachi is also faster than teen obito so as i said, whats the point?


that's all well and good. But they say the Sharingan can't keep up with Ay



and Minato is faster than Ay. There's nothing to indicate the Sharingan could track Minato. Even if we were to assume he could follow Minato's speed, seeing an attack doesn't equate to blocking/dodging it


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Do you know what sharingan does? Lemme tell you what it does, one of its abilities is predicting moves which enable users to combat characters faster than them


If you can react that is


uchihakil said:


> And what does minato grabbing baby naruto prove? It proves one thing which is irrelavant


Does not sharingan allow you see the guys faster than you?   obito could not remotely pick  up than that


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

Veracity said:


> > Actually I Can because I know Minato> Blind Madara in terms of footspeed. I guess I also missed the indication that Madara charged his flicker??


Yes but what you're doing with the feat is not representative of an actual combat situation. We know blind base MAdara under AAA in raiton cloak, yet Naruto in direct combat dodged his nukite. We know V1 Ei is faster in pure speed than blind base Madara, yet in direct bomat Sasuke dodged his physical strike. Naruto was not ind riect combat with MAdara, and the latter charged his shushin and caught them off guard but both Sai and Nardo blocked...If Madara had shuhsin fast enough to pressure Nardo, then Sai wouldn't have reacted...as he wouldn't perceive what Nardo saw, so two shushin is more than enough for Madara to behead him, yet Sai blocked as well...


> Naruto doesn't need to be that pressured. I never said he was blizted, but it was cleared he was pressured MUCH more than against AAA. So Minato is faster than him. I guess Madara is fast enough to pressure Sage Naruto.


That is nonsense. AAA dodged KCM NArdo's throwing FRS at him, from behind, with no sensing and casually. Madara almost got caught up in FRS while having rinnengan/EMS when Nardo threw it at him with help from Gaara. AAA literally dodged it the first time, and then again when Nardo redirected it with his chakra arm. In a direct 1v1 base madara is not blitzing Sage Nardo..



> Also consider the fact that Naruto stated that he needed to attack at the last second and could maneuver so well around that the Sandimae Raikage that he could push his own arm into his body lmao. That's brazy. Consider the distance KCM Naruto dodged Ay from, consider the the fact that once Naruto activated his flicker he basically one stepped out of the area and consider the fact that KCM Naruto has the most inconsistent feats in the entire manga.


I explained this. KCM does not alert him to "danger" or give as keen environmental sensing. That is why it is better via reactions. Nardo via sensing and sage speed boost was able to micromanga a precise counter. KCM Nardo is more about more speed (or distance/time) in both reactions and speed, but moderately less in the former category because it only alerts Nardo to ill intent.



> How much knowledge did Minato have on Obito when he made that first swing? I thought it was clear he was heavily surprised by his ability. The second time he was also getting accostumed to his abilities, but we saw him one panel Obito like seconds after.


It doesn't matter. You're saying Minato's speed is godly. We are talking about teenage Obito, someone equivalent in MS to an Itachi who had just joined akatsuki at 13. Obito had no idea Minato would react...yet inches away he casually kamui'd his strike, and then phased back in to perfectly grasp his hand. By the point Obito grabbed him with chains, Minato had already deduced he used an ST jutsu and some of it's mechanics.

Minato beating him with Hirashin V2 does not invalidate the former feats Obito had...Minato does not have full knowledge on everyone nor does that make Obito reacting invalid. Obito was stupid for not remembering Minato's kunai jump and he overestimated the speed of his fastest warp. But once again that was with FTG.. literally the moment Obito activated his warp, Minato instantly jumped to inches away from him. As Obito's brain processed him missing, Minato was already forming and goign to drill Obito. He has no such leisures without FTG.

Minato's base speed is greivously pverhyped. KCM Nardo is passively faster than Minato, and his shushin accomplished something Minato needed FTG for. Yet experienced 30 year old Obito was fighting him, Gai and Kakashi all at once and needed to be countered by S/T jutsu... Even Gai who had vast experience, could at best keep himself from being warped with his nunchucks.



> I agree on him surviving against AY with FTG.


Ok there is no reason to believe Minato is faster than V1 AAA or AAAA. Even if you believe so that difference should be objectively marginal at best. And sharingan users casually react to that. Meanwhile, Itachi actually feinted an SM user in direct bomat, and actively weaved jutsu faster than 3 tomoe on two occassions, and riectly fought off 7 sword dance with a kunai before being able to dodge and escape by dozens of meters while on autopilot. It's outrageous that people think Base Minato is some high kage level fighter with his shushin and rasengan. SM Jiraiya would wreck Minato without FTG...

Also as a general note, stop using the Minato saving his baby feat as a "blitz". A blitz is when someone bypasses another's reactions and either attacks them, or has the blatant oppurtuinity to do so and chooses not to whethe rout of care, respect, arrogance, etc. Obito was fucking goading Minato with Kushina and Nardo, and blatanly drew his attention to the Nardo as he threw him in the air. This is why Obito was casuallylol'ing because he already set up the tags. I will be the first to admit the tag feat is impressive as fuck as a complex series of movements and reactions. But not as directly impressive as fending off a 7 sword dance...What he did to save his son was not a blitz, but a showing of an impressive shushin. Bee's shushin was a million times more impressive than Minato's.

The only solid shushin feat he has is saving Kushina from the Kyuubi. We explicitly see he is using movement speed and can attribute it to shushin given the location. But the FCD feat is not explcitly a shushin as Minato could have had tags anywhere in Konoha that he used to instantly jump and shushin from. It's an argument from ignroance to claim he shushined as fact, and you should take his best actual on panel physical feats. If Minato jumped to Konoha via FTG it would have been instant wasting less than a second for him to think of a spot. From there it would be another second at most to shushin into the air given Jiraiya did the same thing vs Oro snakes as did Tsunade to stab Manda and neither are speedsters.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> mao. Yes. Ay thought of a counter.  And I'm proud of him for that. But that counter failed. You say Ay is faster, but Ay himself says he isn't


Ei is physically faster than Minato. That is a fact. That is the whole point behind Minato needing FTG to dodge v2 Ei. V2 Ei amps his muscluar/central nervous system and makes him mentally and lhysically more capable upon his naturally strong physical dispoistion. Minato needs FTG to dodge his V2 because it's instant teleprotation based on his mental reaction alone.



> Now if you'd like to provide a scan that states Ay meant to add a disclaimer that his statement only applies to hiraishin, and that he would blitz him without it, I'll be happy to concede


I don't need a scan because I have basic reading comprehension and I'm not being bias and trying to make Minato some speed demon. You are BLATANTLY ignroing pivotal manga plot points, jutsu mechanic, and character dynamic as I will expound
- Minato was faster because of his reactions and FTG. Point blank. Kishi legit showed you what happened when V2 met hirashin. Minato's reactions won by a sliver, and Minato was always able to survive Ei's attmepts because his jutsu is instant. That is why Ei could never beat Minato. It has nothing to do with Minato's physical speed/shushin.
- Proof of this, is the fact that Naruto achieved what his father did via FTG, with his KCM shushin. KCM Naruto is obviously physically faster than his dad. The difference? FTG is legitimately instant. So Minato's better intelligence and experience (Allowed with Obito being younger) allows him to utilize FTG to max utility and land counter attacks.
- You are also ignoring that Minato never killed Ei...People love to claim once you are tagged that Minato can just rinse and repeat FTG rasengan, yet Killer Bee countered and Minato never killed Ei in battle 



> Neither Itachi nor Sasuke fought Minato. So there are no feats for either against him. Ay never touched him. And the damage Ay suffered vs Sasuke was self-inflicted, by attacking his Kagutsuchi Amaterasu Susanoo. Something Itachi can't do


Sasuke dodged his V1 elbow blow, and then landed Chidori on his chest. Minato is not physically faster than V1 Ei.



> So no. None of that implies Itachi having the upper hand against Minato


Nice argument I love when you backed up your points with evidence.



> And as I stated, Sasuke needed Kagutsuchi to damage Ay. Itachi doesn't have that.  Itachi, Sasuke, whoever, isn't keeping up with Minato.


Yeah guess MS is the reason he shoved a chidori in his chest. Ei tanked the blow which has to do with durability not speed. Minato is not on Ei's durability level and is not faster than V1 amped Ei.


> Show me ANY proof of Itachi being able to hit Minato. Or just talk shit instead and prove how garbage your argument is


You;re the one who is shit debating. You didn't directly quote anything or directly respond to my arugments. You posted an out of context scan to try and seem like your arugment holds weight but it makes you look extremely bias or on the other end illiterate.

I literally gave you a whole post and a slew of others as to how Itachi can nail Minato despite his advatnage in movement speed. How about you learn to read, then come debate once you gain some reading comprehension.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> We didn't really see Minato's blinding footspeed at work against a young and inexperienced Obito did we.....hmmmm.
> 
> Nor was it useful in saving Kakashi against fodder - he relied on FTG. I wonder why....
> 
> Even against fodders Minato used FTG. Hmmmm.....Footspeed....hmmmm



I guess by that logic base Ay is slow since he always uses his cloak in a fight to blitz someone 

Base gai must also be really slow since he always fights actual opponents in gates and hasn't blitz anyone in base 

Hmmmmm they must be slow


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I guess by that logic base Ay is slow since he always uses his cloak in a fight to blitz someone
> 
> Base gai must also be really slow since he always fights actual opponents in gates and hasn't blitz anyone in base
> 
> Hmmmmm they must be slow




Have base Raikage or base Gai defeated anyone using purely speed? 



Base Gai was supposedly tiers faster than Kisame, so why didn't he blitz Kisame in base?


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## Icegaze (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Have base Raikage or base Gai defeated anyone using purely speed?
> 
> 
> 
> Base Gai was supposedly tiers faster than Kisame, so why didn't he blitz Kisame in base?



I never said Minato would win with pure speed 
It's the implication that Minato is not clearly faster than itachi in base or is somehow slow that I take issue with 

Itachi chance of winning is limited solely to a genjutsu feint 

Anything short of that and his other base jutsu are laughable


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Ei is physically faster than Minato. That is a fact. That is the whole point behind Minato needing FTG to dodge v2 Ei. V2 Ei amps his muscluar/central nervous system and makes him mentally and lhysically more capable upon his naturally strong physical dispoistion. Minato needs FTG to dodge his V2 because it's instant teleprotation based on his mental reaction alone.


lol, so Ay is faster than Minato but says Minato is faster than him? He didn't strike me as that humble of a guy. Minato USED hiraishin. Nothing says Minato NEEDED hiraishin.


> I don't need a scan because I have basic reading comprehension and I'm not being bias and trying to make Minato some speed demon. You are BLATANTLY ignroing pivotal manga plot points, jutsu mechanic, and character dynamic as I will expound
> - Minato was faster because of his reactions and FTG. Point blank. Kishi legit showed you what happened when V2 met hirashin. Minato's reactions won by a sliver, and Minato was always able to survive Ei's attmepts because his jutsu is instant. That is why Ei could never beat Minato. It has nothing to do with Minato's physical speed/shushin.
> - Proof of this, is the fact that Naruto achieved what his father did via FTG, with his KCM shushin. KCM Naruto is obviously physically faster than his dad. The difference? FTG is legitimately instant. So Minato's better intelligence and experience (Allowed with Obito being younger) allows him to utilize FTG to max utility and land counter attacks.
> - You are also ignoring that Minato never killed Ei...People love to claim once you are tagged that Minato can just rinse and repeat FTG rasengan, yet Killer Bee countered and Minato never killed Ei in battle


Minato said himself that he liked them. His disposition in that clash didn't seem as if he was going for the kill. When he hiraishined behind Bee, he could have just as easily continued his attack. But he didn't. Ay said he wasn't going to let Minato escape. Minato never made similar threats. And Minato escaped despite Ay's effort. After dropping knowledge on Ay regarding Bee


> Sasuke dodged his V1 elbow blow, and then landed Chidori on his chest. *Minato is not physically faster than V1 Ei.*


says you

and how much damage did that Chidori do?


> Nice argument I love when you backed up your points with evidence.


...says the guy refusing to provide any proof for his argument. Irony overload


> Yeah guess MS is the reason he shoved a chidori in his chest. Ei tanked the blow which has to do with durability not speed. Minato is not on Ei's durability level and is not faster than V1 amped Ei.


yeah, he barely survived that Chidori. He obviously needed to dodge if he was at all capable


> You;re the one who is shit debating. You didn't directly quote anything or directly respond to my arugments. You posted an out of context scan to try and seem like your arugment holds weight but it makes you look extremely bias or on the other end illiterate.
> 
> I literally gave you a whole post and a slew of others as to how Itachi can nail Minato despite his advatnage in movement speed. How about you learn to read, then come debate once you gain some reading comprehension.


I know you are but what am I?

arguing like a 5 year old sure is effective. Keep posting your opinion with no proof as if it's fact. It's worked so well thus far


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> lol, so Ay is faster than Minato but says Minato is faster than him? He didn't strike me as that humble of a guy. Minato USED hiraishin. Nothing says Minato NEEDED hiraishin.
> 
> Minato said himself that he liked them. His disposition in that clash didn't seem as if he was going for the kill. When he hiraishined behind Bee, he could have just as easily continued his attack. But he didn't. Ay said he wasn't going to let Minato escape. Minato never made similar threats. And Minato escaped despite Ay's effort. After dropping knowledge on Ay regarding Bee
> 
> ...


*smh* *smh* *shaking my moth#$f$#king head* MINATO IS ONLY FASTER THAN AY WITH FT MOTH**FU€KING G, its as clear as daylight, thats why minato needed ftg to evade ays punch not speed, kcm naruto accomplished such a feat making him the second xter to ever dodge the punch, how hard is this to understand really????


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

And if you still think minato could dodge ays punch without ftg, i'll act like a blind fanboy and also say ridiculous shit like itachi could've outran kirin, but decided to use susano


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I never said Minato would win with pure speed
> It's the implication that Minato is not clearly faster than itachi in base or is somehow slow that I take issue with
> 
> Itachi chance of winning is limited solely to a genjutsu feint
> ...


Minato aint slow, but his base speed is nothing special againt the likes of itachi, dude already fought xters minato fought (his inferior bro fought a xter minato needed ftg to evade) itachi fought kcm naruto and bee, so how is minato without ftg holding any speed advantage over a xter who fought all these top dogs in speed again?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 22, 2016)

With this conditions ı think Minato win this with low diff. 

MS Free Itachi = low-mid level katon, low level suiton, fine cqc, good speed/reaction, shuriken jutsu, intelligence, crow feints, clone explotion..

None of these assets could be enough against Minato's overall speed and handiness. 

Giant Summons, Bunshins, Rasengans, Great Speed/Reaction, shuriken jutsu, intelligence, probably basic fuuton (due to last databoook and his surname) and same fundamentals with Itachi (ıf its nots better than him.) 

So 3T genjutsu only thing that Itachi bring on the table but summons and speed kinda deal with this. Barriers / Seals are works for Minato too.. So this kinda end with trap + hesitation + rasengan combo ... 

_________________________
Off the topic:

By the way , again ı have to tell this.. If someone gonna claim a thing that never happened in manga ? Then that person must be more creative and detailed on his/her argument..

It is like ; "Summons gonna gg by genjutsu" 

We have any genjutsulaized (yeah ı made up now) summon feat.. The closest feats to this are

Madara -> Kyuubi (Kyuubi a wild free creature doesnt have any bounds to anyone and EMS Madara far superior char than 3T Teenage Itachi)

Obito -> Same with madara and thanks to hashi cell juice

RS Sasuke -> All Bijuus --> Same with madara and obito but even more p-upped.

We got same elements; non-bounded wild/free creature and superior dojutsu masters.

So ı found that claim (not just for this topic , every topic that bring this up) lazzy and lacky.

Genjutsu to Summon -> Minato saves
Genjutsu to USer -> Summon saves ...... So even without feats or any other things ı say... This argument still useless to presume.. Of course this is all about IMO


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> *smh* *smh* *shaking my moth#$f$#king head* MINATO IS ONLY FASTER THAN AY WITH FT MOTH**FU€KING G, its as clear as daylight, thats why minato needed ftg to evade ays punch not speed, kcm naruto accomplished such a feat making him the second xter to ever dodge the punch, how hard is this to understand really????


*piss & moan* *make a scene* *make a motherfucking scene* PROVE that Minato NEEDED Hiraishin. Just because he chose to use it doesn't mean he NEEDED to use it. Can't prove it? Good talk


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I never said Minato would win with pure speed
> It's the implication that Minato is not clearly faster than itachi in base or is somehow slow that I take issue with
> 
> Itachi chance of winning is limited solely to a genjutsu feint
> ...




Then what's your problem? I was answering to the people who think Minato can blitz anyone remotely relevant in this manga with base speed alone.


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> *piss & moan* *make a scene* *make a motherfucking scene* PROVE that Minato NEEDED Hiraishin. Just because he chose to use it doesn't mean he NEEDED to use it. Can't prove it? Good talk


lmfao okay if thats how you wanna go bout it, itachi could outrun kirin, but decided to use susano, and kirin has a large aoe, so a sick itachi outrunning kirin is more impressive than minato dodging raikage, as itachi evades the attack with high aoe meaning larger distance been covered tie and itachi soloes


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Ignoring your points you say, i debunked your claim on minato being faster than ms (w/o ftg that is)


You didn't .
Minato has better feats in terms of foot speed , and better feats in terms of reaction speed , you couldn't provide a counter argument . So i accept your concession .


uchihakil said:


> - now you seem to agree that minato wont beat bee in a sword fight (so whats the point of you saying itachi could'nt stop acrobat in the first place if you know it has nothing to do with speed bur sword skill? )


Because you were saying Itachi kept up with Bee when he actually didn't .


uchihakil said:


> - debunked your claim on the hokages reaching the battlefield.


And then you ignored the part about Minato teleporting the Juubi's TBB and putting off his markings around the Juubi w/o anyone noticing .Because you can't counter it 


uchihakil said:


> - and your fan fic minato was'nt bloodlusted else he would've beaten bee when clearly it was implied they stalemated, no statement indicated that minato would've moved faster. (I addressed alot of your points)


And that's based on your biased interpretation , it's not that he wasn't bloodlusted , he just had no killing intent .
Here's the scan , Minato tagged Bee , before w/o him and his brother knowing , something your boy Itachi FAILED to do 
Genjutsu: Rinnegan
And then he teleported at him , and didn't even attack 


uchihakil said:


> - and lmfao if you honestly believe that minato has better reaction speed to naruto cuz last time i checked kcm was being compared to minato with ftg, its not really hard to grasp (kcm naruto > raikage >>> minato w/o ftg) so how how the fuuck does minato skips ay and suddenly have faster reflexes than kcm naruto who was shown to surpass both, minato needed ftg to do what kcm naruto did with sheer speed, i dont wanna call you a wanker cuz i hate it when people others that, but you are clearly denying the manga and kishi) yet you claim i dont address your points *smh*


Lmfao , if you had any sort of understanding on the subject , you'd know that i compared the two in reaction speed .
*REACTION SPEED NOT TRAVELING SPEED 
REACTION SPEED not TRAVELING SPEED 
Such as teleporting to Kushina, taking her with his hands and shunshinning at a 100 meters distance before Kurama can strike her. And that was when Kurama's hand was at point blank range.


Half Kurama was too fast for SM Naruto , SM Naruto stated that he has a better reaction timing than KCM


 The same SM Naruto who could easily dodged a point blank hell stab from the 3rd Raikage at the last fucking second .
Jesus ! what's so hard to understand ????


uchihakil said:



			And i'm gonna debunk your claim again, you said we keep bringing itachi's ms feats, so why you keep bringing minatos ftg feats huh? Cuz minato aint got shit on ay in the speed department he needs ftg to surpass ay, so in this debate minato is NOT above ay so stop saying that, the only version above ay is the one with ftg
		
Click to expand...

Stop spewing nonsense for once in this thread and start reading my posts for a change , jesus christ almighty !!!!!*


cctr9 said:


> eleported the Juubi's TBB which is the size of the perfect Susanoo to the already marked sea , and then he spread his Kunais around the Juubi which is the size of Island Turtle before anyone could understand WTF just happened .
> - He shunshin'ed across Konoha in seconds before Kurama could finish off his TBB .
> - He shunshin'ed across a long distance in and out to save Kushina from a point blank Kyuubi strike who at half power was too fast for SM Naruto who has a better reaction speed than KCM Naruto .
> And all of his other feats against Tobi .


These are his feats that i posted in this thread , where the FUCK did i talked about his feats against A ??

Reactions: Winner 2


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You didn't .
> Minato has better feats in terms of foot speed , and better feats in terms of reaction speed , you couldn't provide a counter argument . So i accept your concession .
> 
> Because you were saying Itachi kept up with Bee when he actually didn't .
> ...


I hope you are aware minato has a mark on kushina yea? dude teleported to kushina and took her to safety, another ftg feat, thats not shuunshin but ftg and you want scans? Here ya go
Genjutsu: Rinnegan

when a mark like this '!!?' Appears, its indicating surprised and naruto not having it means he was aware of itachi but bee was'nt, same bee who did this to minato in a YOUNGER less experienced version

Genjutsu: Rinnegan

Itachi whilst fighting kcm naruto who was superior to ay, that same ay who would've blitzed minato without ftg casually evaded an attack from bee from behind

Genjutsu: Rinnegan

Here is itachi perceiving an sm user and reacting to him while blinded and getting praised by an sm user

Genjutsu: Rinnegan

Here is itachi again using a crow clone feint and blitzed an sm user with more sensing than minato

Genjutsu: Rinnegan

Itachi having better reaction speed than early ems sasuke and sasukes weaker version already fighting fast xters like bee and ay and is even noted by his speed himself

And these feats are all of an edo itachi which is not at 100%


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> I hope you are aware minato has a mark on kushina yea? dude teleported to kushina and took her to safety, another ftg feat, thats not shuunshin but ftg and you want scans? Here ya go


Yes , and for him to do that , he has to react first , which happened before the Kyuubi could hit her , and no , Minato's FTG only allowed him to get to Kushina , he still had to carry her in his arms , and then shunshin away on foot before the Kyuubi could finish off his attack .


uchihakil said:


> explode
> 
> when a mark like this '!!?' Appears, its indicating surprised and naruto not having it means he was aware of itachi but bee was'nt, same bee who did this to minato in a YOUNGER less experienced version


Yes , it indicates surprise , so what ? was he too fast for any of the two to react ? no he wasn't , so your scan didn't really add much .


uchihakil said:


> explode
> 
> Itachi whilst fighting kcm naruto who was superior to ay, that same ay who would've blitzed minato without ftg casually evaded an attack from bee from behind



KCM Naruto is slower than V1 A unless he's using his top speed , which he didn't use against anyone other than the Raikage himself .
Unless you think Itachi is = KCM Naruto's top speed > V2 A speed .
Tell me something boy , is Itachi now faster than A ? 
He's not ? alrighty then .


uchihakil said:


> Here is itachi perceiving an sm user and reacting to him while blinded and getting praised by an sm user


Yes , MS Itachi , not 3TS Itachi , a fact you love to keep ignoring despite me pointing this to you 10000000 times already 


uchihakil said:


> Here is itachi again using a crow clone feint and blitzed an sm user with more sensing than minato


Yes , MS Itachi , not 3TS Itachi .


uchihakil said:


> Itachi having better reaction speed than early ems sasuke and sasukes weaker version already fighting fast xters like bee and ay and is even noted by his speed himself


Sure thing , all this was done thanks to the MS , while this thread is about 3TS Itachi .
Not lemmy see his 3TS feats please ? 


uchihakil said:


> And these feats are all of an edo itachi which is not at 100%


Didn't know that EDO MS Itachi is weaker than 3TS living Itachi  
-------------------------

Reactions: Funny 1


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yes , and for him to do that , he has to react first , which happened before the Kyuubi could hit her , and no , Minato's FTG only allowed him to get to Kushina , he still had to carry her in his arms , and then shunshin away on foot before the Kyuubi could finish off his attack .
> 
> Yes , it indicates surprise , so what ? was he too fast for any of the two to react ? no he wasn't , so your scan didn't really add much .
> 
> ...


Ms has nothing to do with creating a crow clone nor using it as a diversion nor does ms make itachi faster, it only makes him react faster not increases his shuunshin thats why i used that exactly, and the other scan has nothing to do with ms when the dudes eyes were closed, kabuto used white rage, so how does ms work with white rage again??
- i gave you a clean cut shuunshin and feint feat that was used on an sm user (which has nothing to do with ms)
- and a reaction feat which has nothing to do with ms as itachi's eyes were closed

And again for the millionth time, sharingan enables one to keep up with xters FASTER than the sharingan user thanks to precog, so if itachi fights on par with kcm naruto that does'nt mean he is as fast, because his sharingan aided him in the fight to predict moves, so stop with the itachi is faster than ay cuz i NEVER said that


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> so if itachi fights on par with kcm naruto that does'nt mean he is as fast, because his sharingan aided him in the fight to predict moves


It means naruto did not fight seriously.  He never used his top speed or chakra arms for that matter
Sharingan precog did not help sasuke do jackass shit against v2 AY as we all know.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Ms has nothing to do with creating a crow clone nor using it as a diversion nor does ms make itachi faster, it only makes him react faster not increases his shuunshin thats why i used that exactly, and the other scan has nothing to do with ms when the dudes eyes were closed, kabuto used white rage, so how does ms work with white rage again??


MS enables you to move better , when you can react better , you can move better , stated by Madara himself when he said the reason Sasuke's moves where so good was because of his EMS sharingan .

Unless you think Sasuke with just a normal Sharingan can do the same 



uchihakil said:


> And again for the millionth time, sharingan enables one to keep up with xters FASTER than the sharingan user thanks to precog, so if itachi fights on par with kcm naruto that does'nt mean he is as fast, because his sharingan aided him in the fight to predict moves, so stop with the itachi is faster than ay cuz i NEVER said that


Accept Madara who has a comparable speed to Hashirama still needs the Sharingan to fight him .
Sasuke as well , he still needs the Sheringan to fight Naruto even in base .
This is what happens when Sasuke try to attack Naruto without his Sharingan 
explode
explode
Couldn't see the counter attack = got punched in the face and planted onto a cliff .
You keep using bad logic and say , " Boo hoo Itachi kept up with KCM Naruto who is faster than A who almost blitzd Minato " ignoring the fact that :
- KCM Naruto was even fighting Itachi seriously .
- KCM Naruto was using an average speed , not Shunshin speed .
- A is >>>>>>>>> Itachi in terms of speed , yet Minato could still throw a Kunai behind V2 A before he can hit him >>>> Any reaction feat Itachi could ever hope to have in his life .

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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> lmfao okay if thats how you wanna go bout it, itachi could outrun kirin, but decided to use susano, and kirin has a large aoe, so a sick itachi outrunning kirin is more impressive than minato dodging raikage, as itachi evades the attack with high aoe meaning larger distance been covered tie and itachi soloes


lol, keep reachin bud. Sasuke said Kirin couldn't be dodged. Never was it stated that Minato couldn't dodge Ay without Hiraishin. You can throw as many fits as you like. But none of it validates your baseless argument


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> lol, keep reachin bud. Sasuke said Kirin couldn't be dodged. Never was it stated that Minato couldn't dodge Ay without Hiraishin. You can throw as many fits as you like. But none of it validates your baseless argument


Tbh i can keep debating with the minato fans above you but not you, blatantly and outright ignoring mangafacts, goodluck with that, what i said bout itachi dodging kirin was sarcasm BTW, just wanted to play your lil fanboy game


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> MS enables you to move better , when you can react better , you can move better , stated by Madara himself when he said the reason Sasuke's moves where so good was because of his EMS sharingan .
> 
> Unless you think Sasuke with just a normal Sharingan can do the same
> 
> ...



His feat against bee and kcm naruto was with sharingan, the other feat is itachi with his eyes closed, and his feint feat + shuunshin can surely be done with sharingan, using a clone doesnt require the use of sharingan nor is using shuunshin, the example you gave is with sasuke using chidori which was said in the manga to require sharingan to work effectively, and against kabuto in the instance i was talking bout itachi was'nt hopping around it was a feint (which fooled an sm user) and a shuunshin blitz) ms aint required as kabuto was'nt darting away and itachi was'nt persuing him (completely two different scenarios) and 
- bee was going all out and was evaded casually
- itachi has a better shuriken jutsu feat of hitting targets he can't see and blinding nagatos summon
- weaves seals so fast neither kakashi nor hebi sasuke saw when he did (against kakashi he used 2 jutstus plus a threw shuriken all at the same time) and against sasue while gravely sick was firing kunais and made a seal which sasuke did'nt notice


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> His feat against bee and kcm naruto was with sharingan,


Which are still inferior to Minato's feats .
And for the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times read this :


cctr9 said:


> - KCM Naruto was even fighting Itachi seriously .
> - KCM Naruto was using an average speed , not Shunshin speed .


_______________________


uchihakil said:


> the other feat is itachi with his eyes closed


His eyes were'nt close completely .
Kabuto was attacking Sasuke not Itachi .
Itachi reacted with Susanoo that's a mental reaction , not a physical reaction .
3TS Itachi doesn't have a Jutsu that can be activated with just a thought , so he's fucked .


uchihakil said:


> sharingan nor is using shuunshin, the example you gave is with sasuke using chidori which was said in the manga to require sharingan to work effectively, and against kabuto in the instance i was talking bout itachi was'nt hopping around it was a feint (which fooled an sm user) and a shuunshin blitz) ms aint required as kabuto was'nt darting away and itachi was'nt persuing him (completely


Yes , Chidori can only be used with the Sharingan , if the garbage logic you're using is true , then that means Sasuke shoud be able to use it against base Naruto because Sasuke is faster than base Naruto , yet he still needs the Sharingan .
If the garbage logic you're using is true then that means Madara can fight Hashirama w/o his Sharingan when abviously he can't .
Itachi clone feinted Kabuto , yes , SM only allows you to sense more than just one chakra signatures , it doesn't allow you to tell which one is the real one and which one is the real clone .
The other problem is that Minato himself is a clones user , so Itachi has as much chance as Minato to get feinted , and with the manga stating that Minato has the same reaction speed as A , Itachi's gonna get tagged first  


uchihakil said:


> - bee was going all out and was evaded casually


Itachi couldn't land a finger on Bee in their encounter while Minato tagged him with shit ease 


uchihakil said:


> - itachi has a better shuriken jutsu feat of hitting targets he can't see and blinding nagatos summon


Let me know when he can do something like this 



uchihakil said:


> - weaves seals so fast neither kakashi nor hebi sasuke saw when he did (against kakashi he used 2 jutstus plus a threw shuriken all at the same time) and against sasue while gravely sick was firing kunais and made a seal which sasuke did'nt notice


Which means what exactly ? oh wait , it means nothing , as Minato can react better than Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke by feats , and he's faster than the 3 of them on foot .And he has faster hands (tagged killer bee before A or Bee could know , throw a Kunai faster than A can move)

I'm getting sick of you ignoring all the evidence , repeating the same recycled shit over and over and over , and i'm sick of reading nothing but terrible arguments , post a proper argument the next time , or don't post at all .


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Which are still inferior to Minato's feats .
> And for the 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times read this :
> 
> _______________________
> ...



- i did'nt pull the chidori requires sharingan for proper usage from my ass, its right there in the manga, sobyes sasuke could'nt tag naruto cuz of that it aint ma fault blame kishi if you dont like it
- itachi has more feats of using bunshin feints and tricking xters more than minato does, minato has no feat of tricking anyone
- hand to hand combat =/= shuunshin speed and yes itachi fought on par with kcm naruto in HAND TO HAND COMBAT whether you like it or not all the while evading bee


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

And i aint addressing your bm minato feat, last time i checked this was BASE F*CKING MINATO, you keep going on and on how i keep using MS feats when you are no better, and what makes you even think he did'nt use 3 clones to spread the kunai? Anyway it dont matter cuz its a bm feat


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - i did'nt pull the chidori requires sharingan for proper usage from my ass, its right there in the manga, sobyes sasuke could'nt tag naruto cuz of that it aint ma fault blame kishi if you dont like it


 
Yes , he needs the Sharingan to use the Chidori , no shit sherlock , but if the logic you're trying is true , then Sasuke shouldn't need the Sharingan unless Naruto is waaaaaay faster than him which he isn't .
You know what , scratch the Sasuke example , because it sees that you can't understand .
Why does Madara needs his Sharingan to fight Hashirama even tho the two of them has comparable speed ? 


uchihakil said:


> - itachi has more feats of using bunshin feints and tricking xters more than minato does, minato has no feat of tricking anyone


Because we never saw Minato fights with clones until the war arc , and Minato is >>> Itachi in speed , so his clones won't really do shit , combined with the fact that w/o the MS he can't hit Minato even with clone diversion .


uchihakil said:


> - hand to hand combat =/= shuunshin speed and yes itachi fought on par with kcm naruto in HAND TO HAND COMBAT whether you like it or not all the while evading bee


And whether you like or not means what exactly ? 
It means that you want to deny the manga even tho it disagree with what you say .
KCM Naruto never wanted to fight Itachi seriously , he wanted to talk to him about Sasuke , and i he wanted to really fight him , he would've used shunhsin speed , chakra arms , Rasengan variants .....etc etc 
But i guess that is to be expected from the Uchiha fanbase 


uchihakil said:


> And i aint addressing your bm minato feat, last time i checked this was BASE F*CKING MINATO, you keep going on and on how i keep using MS feats when you are no better, and what makes you even think he did'nt use 3 clones to spread the kunai? Anyway it dont matter cuz its a bm feat


If you could read the manga correctly without adding your biased , interpretation to the fold , you'd know that Minato activated the cloak AFTER he already spread the Kunai

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## Rai (Dec 22, 2016)

We already know that Itachi solos.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but what you're doing with the feat is not representative of an actual combat situation. We know blind base MAdara under AAA in raiton cloak, yet Naruto in direct combat dodged his nukite. We know V1 Ei is faster in pure speed than blind base Madara, yet in direct bomat Sasuke dodged his physical strike. Naruto was not ind riect combat with MAdara, and the latter charged his shushin and caught them off guard but both Sai and Nardo blocked...If Madara had shuhsin fast enough to pressure Nardo, then Sai wouldn't have reacted...as he wouldn't perceive what Nardo saw, so two shushin is more than enough for Madara to behead him, yet Sai blocked as well...
> 
> That is nonsense. AAA dodged KCM NArdo's throwing FRS at him, from behind, with no sensing and casually. Madara almost got caught up in FRS while having rinnengan/EMS when Nardo threw it at him with help from Gaara. AAA literally dodged it the first time, and then again when Nardo redirected it with his chakra arm. In a direct 1v1 base madara is not blitzing Sage Nardo..
> 
> ...


 I got finals and then work, but I'll definitely get to this soon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yes , he needs the Sharingan to use the Chidori , no shit sherlock , but if the logic you're trying is true , then Sasuke shouldn't need the Sharingan unless Naruto is waaaaaay faster than him which he isn't .
> You know what , scratch the Sasuke example , because it sees that you can't understand .
> Why does Madara needs his Sharingan to fight Hashirama even tho the two of them has comparable speed ?
> 
> ...



- Oh ma bad, i thought he spread the kunais whilst in bm, nevertheless it does'nt change the fact that that he might've used clones to spread the kunais (which is the wiser move). And i get your your logic, but it does'nt work that way, sharingan is needed to land chidori/raikiri on all targets not neccesarily xters the chidori user is faster than
- and 'whether you like it or not' in my context means, whether you like what kishi did or not as if naruto uses chakra arms itachi would use susano arms etc, it was a taijutsu only battle, not taijutsu + ninjutsu (in the lil duel that is)


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

ℜai said:


> We already know that Itachi solos.


Truuuuueeee dat


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - Oh ma bad, i thought he spread the kunais whilst in bm, nevertheless it does'nt change the fact that that he might've used clones to spread the kunais (which is the wiser move).


Minato has* NEVER* once been shown using clones to spread Kunai .
Ever .
Nor was there any hint at him using clones to do that in that scene .


uchihakil said:


> And i get your your logic, but it does'nt work that way, sharingan is needed to land chidori/raikiri on all targets not neccesarily xters the chidori user is faster than


The Sharingan is needed to see the counter attack from the target , it can be used w/o the Sharingan (See Kakashi Gaiden) , but if would not be complete .
Either way , that's just one example , the other example being Madara needing the Sharingan to fight Hashirama who still has a comparable foot speed to him .
not something he can use multiple times a day
Not only does Minato have a much better foor speed than any form of Itachi , but he alos has a better reaction speed .


uchihakil said:


> - and 'whether you like it or not' in my context means, whether you like what kishi did or not as if naruto uses chakra arms itachi would use susano arms etc, it was a taijutsu only battle, not taijutsu + ninjutsu (in the lil duel that is)


A taijutsu battle in which you think Naruto was moving at or above V2 Raikage in speed ? 
Didn't think so .
As , shown , KCM Naruto's normal speed , can't even dodge V1 Raikage .
not something he can use multiple times a day
Let alone when he's fighting and holding back .
Let alone when he's low on chakra .


uchihakil said:


> Truuuuueeee dat


Typical Uchiha fans

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Then what's your problem? I was answering to the people who think Minato can blitz anyone remotely relevant in this manga with base speed alone.



Asuma is relevant he can be blitz


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Minato has* NEVER* once been shown using clones to spread Kunai .
> Ever .
> Nor was there any hint at him using clones to do that in that scene .
> 
> ...




Well that was the only instance he was dealing with a large scale marking ground, and using clones is more effective as they were working against time.

- you don't seem to know the difference between combat speed and foot speed, go learn the difference in battlewiki or som'em.

- i've grown tired of the matchup, so lets just agree to disagree


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## uchihakil (Dec 22, 2016)

some one can take over, or should we proceed to how they fight each other (though i know speed will kick in somehow)


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Well that was the only instance he was dealing with a large scale marking ground, and using clones is more effective as they were working against time.


Concession accepted on the fact that he didnt use clones .


uchihakil said:


> - you don't seem to know the difference between combat speed and foot speed, go learn the difference in battlewiki or som'em.


CQC speed is based on reaction speed , and striking speed , both of which go to Minato by feats .


uchihakil said:


> - i've grown tired of the matchup, so lets just agree to disagree


Alright then .


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## Android (Dec 22, 2016)

Jad said:


> I sometimes feel like Minato gets way too bloated. Here it shows Minato and Kakashi reacting and reaching out to Black Zetsu at the same time.


Lmao what ? 
Minato teleported 5 of Madara's TSB after letting them touch his back , teleported in and out to Konoha before the TSB could do any damage to his body .
While Kakashi and Obito had to combine their Kamui to BARELY escape a TSB shooted from 30-50 meters 
Minato takes a crap on Kakashi in terms of reaction speed .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Tbh i can keep debating with the minato fans above you but not you, blatantly and outright ignoring mangafacts, goodluck with that, what i said bout itachi dodging kirin was sarcasm BTW, just wanted to play your lil fanboy game


lol. Back to the "I know you are but what am I?" defense. You have no facts to quote so you quit. 

For the record. Itachi is actually my favorite character (for now at least). I just don't blindly dickride any Uchiha like you do. Have fun trying to convince the others that your opinion is fact. I accept your forfeit. Take care

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

There's an abundance of evidence showing characters fighting on par with someone faster. The only time this isn't the case is when the gap between strength was too big.

Minato's base speed isn't doing crap. Unless base Minato is vastly superior to V1 Raikage then it's not going to be a problem.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> lol, so Ay is faster than Minato but says Minato is faster than him? He didn't strike me as that humble of a guy. Minato USED hiraishin. Nothing says Minato NEEDED hiraishin.


Yes because Minato had Hirashin. We gonna keep repeating this? We saw the fight and their jutsu dynamic. Minato escape with inches and still got physically touched by Ei's fist in order to get the kunai up for his counterattack. FTG is the reason he could never win, Minato is fast in base, this is true, but he is no where near his competency with teleportation.



> Minato said himself that he liked them. His disposition in that clash didn't seem as if he was going for the kill. When he hiraishined behind Bee, he could have just as easily continued his attack. But he didn't. Ay said he wasn't going to let Minato escape. Minato never made similar threats. And Minato escaped despite Ay's effort. After dropping knowledge on Ay regarding Bee


Minato is a nice guy I never claimed opposite but Minato also does not fuck around. V2 Ei threatened him and Minato went for a killshot. He was impressed with Bee and saw promise in his mental and combat prowess. But he still threatened both Ei and Bee. Minato underestimated Bee's tact and Bee was aniticpating him so he was already going to strike at Bee the moment he saw Minato disappear. there is no reason to believe that all of those times that Minato didn't use lethal force against the two. Minato was mostly being countered as well and unable to land a finishing blow passed their durabilities. 



> says you
> 
> and how much damage did that Chidori do?


Or Kishi's portrayal of fighters? Base Bee and raikage are speedsters in base alone like Minato (see Bee dodge Juugo attack from smoke and use shushin across a mountain plateau). It's absurd to think them being boosted by such forms as V1 RCM and V1 chakra boost wouldn't make them physically faster than Minato, because of his hype with FTG. Sharingan users can comfrotably react to that speed, Sasuke dodged mid air and landed a genjutsu against V1 as well. You think Minato can do this blind? 

Why are you bringing up damage when we were talking about Sasuke outspeeding Ei in CqC physically? Ei being minamally injured (a feat he praised himself) does nothing to the speed feat lmao.



> ...says the guy refusing to provide any proof for his argument. Irony overload


Except anyone with competent reading comprehension can clearly see my previous post and this post itself contain far more substance than your one line claims of fact. 


> yeah, he barely survived that Chidori. He obviously needed to dodge if he was at all capable


Ei literally thrives off outspeeding his opponent, and why would anyone let another fighter hit them? You are blatantly ignoring that Sasuke dodged his physical strike in V1, and then landed a counter attack from close. Clearly being quite capable of reacting and landing hits past Ei's V1. This is just blatantly obvious.



> I know you are but what am I?
> 
> arguing like a 5 year old sure is effective. Keep posting your opinion with no proof as if it's fact. It's worked so well thus far


I'm calling it as it is because you are honestly bad at this.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

professor83 said:


> It means naruto did not fight seriously.  He never used his top speed or chakra arms for that matter
> Sharingan precog did not help sasuke do jackass shit against v2 AY as we all know.


Naruto was fighting seriously because he knew the edo's couldn't control themselves. Just because one is not going all out doesn't mean they are holding back. The whole mantra of the war was killing the edo's despite personal attachments...see Kakashi vs Zabuza, Mifune vs Hanzo, Asuma vs his team, etc. KCM Nardo was casually dusting Bee in physical speed on their way to the battlefield and Nardo was so fast he couldn't keep up with his speed. So no don't try and downplay his feats of interplay with KCM Nardo physical speed which is > Minato's lone physical speed without FTG ambush. 

He didn't use shushin and Itachi can't react to a top shuhshin KCM flicker, but neither could Minato  KCM Nardo dodged experienced V2 Ei flicker by meters with his shushin, Minato got a kunai inches in the air, and used FTG to port and got nudged on his nose. KCM Nardo would punch his face in at top speed at a similar distance. Your second part is irrelevant chakra arms do increase his range, and surprise attack speed, but not using them doesn't mean  in hand to hand. Bee literally tried to blindside him (we know how fast Bee is in base) while Itachi was looking at KCM Naruto and dodging him, and Itachi casually whooped around them like a flying sillhuoette, you can clearly see ITachi move several meters  is quite impressive while MS Sauce was getting caught up trying to block 7 swords dance with his sword, he eventually got stunlocked and stabbed. Itachi blocked it with a kunai, and then quickly disengaged while Bee was still mid dance gaining several meters on him. These are direct combat feats against physical speedsters who cannot rely on teleportation. Minato has no such combat feats to suggest he is more capable.

Tl;dr Itachi getting blitzed my ass.

Lets talk about how Minato doesn't get genjutsu'd and cucked by Itachi's weapons game, or Katons?


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2016)

@Jad after reading cctr9's nonsense

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## Suoh (Dec 22, 2016)

In a fight where neither shinobi has their big guns it would come down to who can better utilize what they do have. We have seen the multitude of ways that Itachi can implement his arsenal. Feints, genjutsu, ninjutsu, taijutsu, speed. Itachi has all of these at his disposal. Minato's two biggest assests, summons and speed, can be mitigated heavily by Itachi imo. Tier 5 base speed + 3T should protect Itachi from being severely threatened by Minato's speed while clone usage and genjutsu allows him to deal with summons. The location also benefits Itachi's more trickery based aresenal more than Minato and no MS decreases the likelihood of Minato winning via attrition. Ultimately I think Itachi has more options with which he can use to setup a victory. Itachi high diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Monty Burns (Dec 22, 2016)

Minato takes this low-mid diff, without his MS techs he doesn't stand a chance. Genjutsu, although it has a chance of working, can be evaded by clones or it can be countered, as Minato is a sensory type. Ninjutsu isn't a problem as it can casually be evaded by Minato's speed. Rather he can just summon a giant toad on his head.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2016)

cctr9 after becoming self conscious

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Rai (Dec 22, 2016)

Itachi will have trouble against Minato's base speed


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## Baroxio (Dec 22, 2016)

I generally place Itachi, Killer Bee, and Minato in the same general speed tier. Neither have a substantial enough edge over the other for the battle to come down to speed.


*Spoiler*: _My Reasoning_ 




Minato's Long range Shunshin feats:


*Spoiler*: _Saving Kushina_ 










Are roughly equivalent to Killer Bee's long range Shunshin feats:


*Spoiler*: _Mountain Jump_ 








The distance is roughly the same, which is fairly easy to see because the angle and perspective are almost the same as well.

Furthermore, Minato's Short range Shunshin feat:

*Spoiler*: _Saving Baby Naruto_ 








Is roughly equivalent to Itachi's short range Shunshin feat:



Looking how far Itachi moved while Bee and Naruto are still in the same position from their earlier strike makes this a pretty impressive feat for me, IMHO.




That said, I believe Itachi wins this battle, mainly because Itachi in "base" simply has more options than Minato does.

Without Hirashin (and presumably it's many derivatives), Minato only has Rasengan (a short range technique) and summoning ninjutsu. On the other hand, Itachi has a variety of offensive and defensive ninjutsu, with effectiveness in multiple ranges. I'm particularly a fan of explosive bunshin, which can serve as a punishing counter to CQC specialists like Minato.

That's not to say that Minato has no options in this battle, though. By far, his most effective option is likely his summoning ability, which he can use to summon powerful boss summons. Itachi, lacking Magenkyou Sharingan, cannot really contend with their massive ninjutsu abilities. However, if we extrapolate Itachi's speed to Killer Bee's speed (particularly the mountain jump), then it shouldn't be out of the question for Itachi to dodge them in a similar fashion.

Furthermore, we've seen from the Deva Realm vs Sage Naruto fight, that Giant Summons have trouble keeping up with fairly quick ninja, so their effectiveness in this match can be called into question. Lastly, the Sasuke vs Deidara fight shows us how easily summons can be placed under genjutsu, which can turn a powerful advantage into a grave detriment.

So when it comes down to it, in character, with no real knowledge about who they are fighting, I see Minato attempting to close the distance and use CQC with Itachi, who should be fast enough to contend with him. As such, Minato either falls to genjutsu, or accidentally hits an explosive bunshin that Itachi subbed with in the blink of an eye.

Out-of-character though, were this set up more like the KC, then I guess there's nothing stopping Minato from just summoning Gamabunta, telling him to keep his eyes closed, and carpet bombing the area with massive water bombs. Minato's minor sensing abilities can really shine in such a scenario.

Of course, Itachi could likely attempt to counter our blind assess with shuriken jutsu to the face, but it's still a good option at taking the dude out. Just won't look too pretty afterwards.


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but what you're doing with the feat is not representative of an actual combat situation. We know blind base MAdara under AAA in raiton cloak, yet Naruto in direct combat dodged his nukite. We know V1 Ei is faster in pure speed than blind base Madara, yet in direct bomat Sasuke dodged his physical strike. Naruto was not ind riect combat with MAdara, and the latter charged his shushin and caught them off guard but both Sai and Nardo blocked...If Madara had shuhsin fast enough to pressure Nardo, then Sai wouldn't have reacted...as he wouldn't perceive what Nardo saw, so two shushin is more than enough for Madara to behead him, yet Sai blocked as well...
> 
> That is nonsense. AAA dodged KCM NArdo's throwing FRS at him, from behind, with no sensing and casually. Madara almost got caught up in FRS while having rinnengan/EMS when Nardo threw it at him with help from Gaara. AAA literally dodged it the first time, and then again when Nardo redirected it with his chakra arm. In a direct 1v1 base madara is not blitzing Sage Nardo..
> 
> ...



We don't know that at all though. That's the point. The statement of AAA or V1 AAAA being faster than *Alive* Madara is something you simply fabricated. Based on actual feats, Madara is faster than them both. Please provide information as to how Madara "charged his shunshin." Sai blocked as well because he was hit after Naruto was. Assuming Sai is still so much slower than every character that Madara would be able to hit Naruto and then hit Sai without a reaction is just something you made up also. 

Madara was focused on the alliance, and was physically pulled from his Sussano( unless you believe he was going to force his way out of the sand) in order for Kishi to make it blatantly clear that Madara was able to use Preta Path. Then there's the fact Edo Madara is slower than Alive Madara.

Your explanation of KCM Narutos reactions in comparison to Sage Naruto does nothing to supplement your argument. Did I miss something? Because I didn't disagree with any of that.

I'm saying Minato's flicker is fast. I don't ever recall me even bringing up his CQC or handspeed. I also dont necessarily believe that Obito's reactions increased until after he received the Rinnegan. Older MS Obito doesn't have superior reactions to his younger incarnation. Oh well Kishi.

I don't understand why you're flooding your response with feats from Obito like it matters? Minato's flicker is ineffective against any version of Obito because he has instant defense. If Itachi has Sussano, then Minato's foot speed would not matter. He doesn't here though.

I also don't quite understand why you brought up the baby Naruto feat. I didn't mention said feat once honestly. 

Minato has more than 1 great shunshin feat. His Naruto feat is impressive( given the statement), his Kyuubi Feat is impressive, arriving to the battlefield and spreading Kunai around the Juubi before it or Madara or Obito could realize is impressive, and through power scaling, Madara putting Naruto on his ass makes Minato look great. Then again, how many times has Minato even used flciker in the manga?


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Minato takes this low-mid diff, without his MS techs he doesn't stand a chance. Genjutsu, although it has a chance of working, can be evaded by clones or it can be countered, as Minato is a sensory type. Ninjutsu isn't a problem as it can casually be evaded by Minato's speed. Rather he can just summon a giant toad on his head.


Ignoring that Minato doesn't have FTG.

Minato has no solid counter to genjutsu outside of keeping his eyes closed. He literally cannot approach Itachi with them open and thus will be heavily deterred here. Finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, and regular occular sharingan genjutsu are all potent enough to severely throw Minato off and fuck his perception.

Minato does not make clones IC. He doesn't know Itachi is a genjutsu genius. Even when he fought a strong uchiha who could summon the Kyuubi, he didn't make a clone to fight genjutsu and literally approached him staring him in the face. Minato only used clones to fight while channeling the barrier and to use his combo FTG attack. Why would Minato summon a clone here before he looks at , makes , or ?

Sensing is not sufficient without the eyes unless you are a sage user and can use nigh omnipresent nature energy "to see" like Naruto and Kabuto, especially one of . Regular sensors see masses of chakra in their mind and it's general location. Minato needed to focus intently to sense in during the 4th war, and in the 3rd war relied on ground sensing. He is not going to be able to fight without eyes based on sensing alone especially given Itachi has feinted an SM users and then physically cut him, same guy who dodged a Susanoo arrow from close.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

Veracity said:


> We don't know that at all though. That's the point. The statement of AAA or V1 AAAA being faster than *Alive* Madara is something you simply fabricated. Based on actual feats, Madara is faster than them both.


No once again you are ingoring feat context. Without sage chakra base alive madara is not faster than AAA. He has no such hype, he didn't dodge point blank FRS from KCM Naruto. It's quite clear AAA in cloak form is > Madara alive in base in pure speed. You're basing all this one one panel of Naruto blockign a charged shushin from Madara which can easily be called into question as PIS.



> Please provide information as to how Madara "charged his shunshin." Sai blocked as well because he was hit after Naruto was. Assuming Sai is still so much slower than every character that Madara would be able to hit Naruto and then hit Sai without a reaction is just something you made up also.


So Naruto can react to V1 Ei running straight at Ei, but blind base madara pressured him more, and then Sai was able to block a shushin of this magntiude from Madara as well? That makes zero sense. None of this makes sense e could pressure alive Madara with his sword. So EMS Sasuke is now fast enough to pressure SM Naruto? So EMS Sasuke is Minato base speed level? so MS ITachi is Minato speed level? That's the chain of logic. 

The truth is Minato, Itachi, Sasuke and Madara are all on similar levels of physical speed. But using a "blitz" from Madara and trying to scale it to Minato to say he could do the same in combat physically when he has never done such a thing is nonsense.



Madara was focused on the alliance, and was physically pulled from his Sussano( unless you believe he was going to force his way out of the sand) in order for Kishi to make it blatantly clear that Madara was able to use Preta Path. Then there's the fact Edo Madara is slower than Alive Madara.



> Your explanation of KCM Narutos reactions in comparison to Sage Naruto does nothing to supplement your argument. Did I miss something? Because I didn't disagree with any of that.


Yes it does as you would be implying that Base Madara is faster than KCM Naruto's best reactions...



> I'm saying Minato's flicker is fast. I don't ever recall me even bringing up his CQC or handspeed. I also dont necessarily believe that Obito's reactions increased until after he received the Rinnegan. Older MS Obito doesn't have superior reactions to his younger incarnation. Oh well Kishi.


He is faster than Madara, but so is AAA, and so is AAAA in V1, so using that scene does nothing to boost Minato to treating characters like Itachi akin to how Sasuke treated Diedara or how Lee treated Gaara. That's ridiculous. 



> I don't understand why you're flooding your response with feats from Obito like it matters? Minato's flicker is ineffective against any version of Obito because he has instant defense. If Itachi has Sussano, then Minato's foot speed would not matter. He doesn't here though.


No he doesn't. Obito has to react to use Kamui...So if you think he can pressure people better than teen Obito, than OBito as well shouldn't be capable of trapping Minato, catching his hits, etc.



> Minato has more than 1 great shunshin feat. His Naruto feat is impressive( given the statement), his Kyuubi Feat is impressive, arriving to the battlefield and spreading Kunai around the Juubi before it or Madara or Obito could realize is impressive, and through power scaling, Madara putting Naruto on his ass makes Minato look great. Then again, how many times has Minato even used flciker in the manga?


Yeah and that is a travelling feat, if indeed it even is a shushin feat. It is not a direct combat feat. The thing about speed is that it is distance/time. Minato is doing what most speedsters can do over large distances ala Base Killer Bee. That is different than combat speeds with characters who can react to said speedsters, lightning, FRS, etc. Itachi was actually putting pressure on Killer Bee multiple times with his jutsu execution and did fine against Killer Bee's complex swordplay which can nail other speedsters who can dodge his V1 Lariat.

Minato used it twice for interception feats, which don't count in saying whose faster lest base Naruto be better faster than Sasuke . Don't get me wrong the feat itself is still impressive, but dodging a fast attack or character directly in combat or as Itachi did dodge an attack and gain several meters while Bee and Nardo were still in posiiton is much more qualitative to combat speed analysis.


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## Monty Burns (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Ignoring that Minato doesn't have MS.
> 
> Minato has no solid counter to genjutsu outside of keeping his eyes closed. He literally cannot approach Itachi with them open and thus will be heavily deterred here. Finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, and regular occular sharingan genjutsu are all potent enough to severely throw Minato off and fuck his perception.
> 
> ...



Minato's sensing can help him break out of genjutsu's. He'll be able to sense his irregular chakra flow and then break out of it. Especially a sensory type of Minato's calibre who could sense Naruto and Kurama fighting together in the 4th world war (in which they were miles away). A little genjutsu isn't going to be the end of Minato considering he has decades worth more battle experience than Itachi.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Minato's sensing can help him break out of genjutsu's. He'll be able to sense his irregular chakra flow and then break out of it. Especially a sensory type of Minato's calibre who could sense Naruto and Kurama fighting together in the 4th world war (in which they were miles away). A little genjutsu isn't going to be the end of Minato considering he has decades worth more battle experience than Itachi.




You do realise that "decades" means 20+ years, right? Minato is 40? 

Furthermore, Minato cannot possibly break out of 3T genjutsu faster than Killer Bee with his instant partner method can (which was barely fast enough). 

Killer Bee's partner method > Minato (lol sensing) method. Not to mention he had to specifically turn his chakra into sensing mode.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Minato ended a war and beat an MS user and 9 tails, so yes he does have decades WORTH more experience than Itachi. With your ridiculous logic Itachi can finish off Hashirama by putting him under a genjutsu because he has no known defence against it. Orochimaru nearly broke out of Itachi's sharingan genjutsu and you think a top tier shinobi like Minato can't? Itachi fans like you think if you make eye contact with Itachi for a second, you'll end up trapped in a genjutsu. It's priceless.
> 
> Minato simply uses Food Cart Destroyer or trolls him with his speed until he gets a Rasengan in his face.




1. Minato didn't really end the war solo. Others still participated.
2. He beat a teenage Obito who was vastly inexperienced and had to rush. 
3. Minato didn't beat the 9 tails. It costed him his life.
4. Itachi also had experience massacring the strongest clan in Konoha, being with Akatsuki (must've seen some shady stuff an Hokage inside an office wouldn't), defeated Legendary Sannin, Hokage wisdom at 7.

5. Hashirama has the benefit of the doubt because of he's a demi god-tier and has faced Uchiha Madara all his life. No reason to think a simple 3T can do anything to him. Tsukuyomi, on the other hand, is a different story.

6. Minato isn't on Hashirama's level by a mile. Orochimaru and Minato were both considered Hokage candidate rivals, and Orochimaru was neg-diffed by a 3T genjutsu from Itachi. No reason to think Minato can do any better than Orochimaru can.


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## Monty Burns (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. Minato didn't really end the war solo. Others still participated.
> 2. He beat a teenage Obito who was vastly inexperienced and had to rush.
> 3. Minato didn't beat the 9 tails. It costed him his life.
> 4. Itachi also had experience massacring the strongest clan in Konoha, being with Akatsuki (must've seen some shady stuff an Hokage inside an office wouldn't), defeated Legendary Sannin, Hokage wisdom at 7.
> ...



He was the main reason they won the war.

He beat a teenage Obito and *9 tails**.

Minato *chose** to sacrifice his life.

Minato was said to be a once in a life time genius, an unparalled shinobi etc...

Minato and Orochimaru aren't on the same level. Just because Danzo wanted Orochimaru to be the Hokage doesn't mean they're equal.


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No once again you are ingoring feat context. Without sage chakra base alive madara is not faster than AAA. He has no such hype, he didn't dodge point blank FRS from KCM Naruto. It's quite clear AAA in cloak form is > Madara alive in base in pure speed. You're basing all this one one panel of Naruto blockign a charged shushin from Madara which can easily be called into question as PIS.
> 
> 
> So Naruto can react to V1 Ei running straight at Ei, but blind base madara pressured him more, and then Sai was able to block a shushin of this magntiude from Madara as well? That makes zero sense. None of this makes sense e could pressure alive Madara with his sword. So EMS Sasuke is now fast enough to pressure SM Naruto? So EMS Sasuke is Minato base speed level? so MS ITachi is Minato speed level? That's the chain of logic.
> ...



I'm not ignoring context at all. You just assume character A is faster than character B because character A is clad in RnY that isn't how this manga works. You need FEATS to be faster than characters especially considering we are arguing for the feats and Minato is already hyped to be fast on his toes and have proven so. V1 Ay and AAA don't have any feats to assume they are faster than Minato at all. Jumping over FRS which Deva Pain could do isn't evidence. Stop. Madara outplayed Sage Naruto MUCH better than Sanadaime Raikage did, therefore he is faster. We don't need Madara to engage in an entire battle with Naruto to know that. Please explain why his flciker was charged. I've asked for that multiple times. Also plot indiced stupidity has nothing to do with Naruto's inability to react properly. Madara was just that fast.

Sai blocking the second flicker from Madara after being a witness to Naruto being punted into the air doesn't make sense why? How large do you think the reaction gap between Naruto and Sai is? It's large but not to he extent Sai blocking far after Naruto should be that surprising.

That's an awful chain of logic that I didn't use. Madara was Jobbing against Sasuke,evidenced by the fact that he was able to avoid all of his attacks for multiple panels and then stopped avoiding to catch the sword in his arm with zero reaction of surprise. He then took such opportunity to attempt to persuade Sasuke to joining his side. Clear as day that he was jobbing, also evidenced by the fact that Madara had multiple techinques at his disposal yet chose to avoid all of Sasuke's attacks for multiple panels and talk to him.

Minato and Madara are far faster than Itachi in terms of footspeed.
Handspeed and CQC are different.

KCM Naruto doesn't have to react to attacks like Sage Mode Naruto does because he's exceptionally fast at at going from Point A to Point B, but isn't skilled or quick enough to much in CQC.  If Madara had blizted Sage Naruto then you would be right to assume that I thought Madara was faster than V2 Ay. But that isn't the case.

I don't understand how that doesn't make sense. Minato isn't capable of blitzing Obito because his reactions are probabaly on par with Sage Naruto and unlike Naruto he doesn't have to physically react to anything. Sooo? Him trapping Minato was a factor of surprise and Kamui. Not because he could physically react to Minato's flicker.

Minato doesn't have many flciker combat feats because he relies on FTG. But we've already seen what he could do and it's impressive. Such has been blatantly fed to the reader multiple times by the author.

Interception feats aren invalid unless it does directly against the characters portrayal and feats. Unlike the feat you brought up with Naruto,Obito outright stated that what Minato did was impressive. That's telling the audience something. Sasuke was pretty beat up at that point any way IIRC

You seem to be under the impression that I think Minato can blitz Itachi or something . No. but he can heavily  pressure him meaning he can close the gap and put him in a Naruto/Madara position frequently. At that point it's up to Itachi's CQC skill and handspeed.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Minato ended a war and beat an MS user and 9 tails, so yes he does have decades WORTH more experience than Itachi.


Which is a complete non sequitur and as such doesn't prove how Minato deals with genjutsu.

Not only this but your logic is directly countered by Orochimaru having even more experience than Itachi and Minato, and he failed to 3 tomoe, as did Bee who had experience vs minato himself, and MS sasuke by the time he fought Itachi.

So try again.



> With your ridiculous logic Itachi can finish off Hashirama by putting him under a genjutsu because he has no known defence against it.


If Itachi landed it, it would work on him. Hashirama is just too much given his skillset, landing it before he dies is the problem not Hashirama having some resistance or passive counter.



> Orochimaru nearly broke out of Itachi's sharingan genjutsu and you think a top tier shinobi like Minato can't? Itachi fans like you think if you make eye contact with Itachi for a second, you'll end up trapped in a genjutsu. It's priceless.


A.) He was struggling to brake a binding genjutsu and couldn't do shit to the follow up attack. You think Itachi's gonna twittle his thumb while Minato is reacting to the genjutsu and subsequently trying to break out?
B.) That is literally all you need to get someone in genjutus. Naruto saw Itachi's crow for a moment and was caught, Naruto saw his finger for a moment and was caught, Bee saw Itachi's eyes for under a second from after Itachi casted his katon to before Bee put his hand up  and he got caught and didn't even know it until others informed him.

So yeah sounds like you're blatantly ignoring the manga.



> Minato simply uses Food Cart Destroyer or trolls him with his speed until he gets a Rasengan in his face.


that's not IC and has never been effective unless someone is ambushing their target. Not actively fighting them 1v1.

You have to be in the sky or above the targets head to use FCD. The only time it was used on a non summon target was vs tree zetsu and Naruto ambushed him when he arrived.

Nice cop out argument though.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 22, 2016)

Don't see how this hurts Itachi more than Minato. Itachi fought comfortably using three tomoe in the first place while Minato's arsenal revolves almost entirely around his usage of FTG.

Outside of that he has Rasengans, clones which Itachi uses much liberally, and summons which can simply be controlled. As for speed, Minato without FTG is in the same ballpark as Itachi, and whatever advantage he would have is nulled thanks to Sharingan. 

See Itachi taking it more times than not due to clone feints and genjutsu.


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## Monty Burns (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> A.) He was struggling to brake a binding genjutsu and couldn't do shit to the follow up attack. You think Itachi's gonna twittle his thumb while Minato is reacting to the genjutsu and subsequently trying to break out?
> B.) That is literally all you need to get someone in genjutus. Naruto saw Itachi's crow for a moment and was caught, Naruto saw his finger for a moment and was caught, Bee saw Itachi's eyes for under a second from after Itachi casted his katon to before Bee put his hand up and he got caught and didn't even know it until others informed him.



Comparing early Shippuden Naruto to Minato? In Bee's case, he was stood there and he looked into Itachi's eyes for a good couple of seconds, not under a second. Minato isn't going to do that here.



Dr. White said:


> that's not IC and has never been effective unless someone is ambushing their target. Not actively fighting them 1v1.
> 
> You have to be in the sky or above the targets head to use FCD. The only time it was used on a non summon target was vs tree zetsu and Naruto ambushed him when he arrived.



Minato was up against Kurama 1v1 and he used Food Cart Destroyer. Naruto was up against Zetsu and he used Food Cart Destroyer. Minato used a clone against Obito in the 4th war without an FTG combo. So stop acting as if Minato can't or won't use it. Minato's speed and reflexes will seal this victory and I forgot about Sage Mode, and before you say "he admitted he isn't good with it" or "that's not in character", he used it against Madara and gathered the natural fairly quickly, although he'll never have to use it.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yes because Minato had Hirashin. We gonna keep repeating this? We saw the fight and their jutsu dynamic. Minato escape with inches and still got physically touched by Ei's fist in order to get the kunai up for his counterattack. FTG is the reason he could never win, Minato is fast in base, this is true, but he is no where near his competency with teleportation.


that's the biggest issue with your argument though. I'm sure nobody will argue that Minato is faster with hiraishin than shunshin. But we don't have any actual comparison between the 2. Minato was still able to use his shunshin to save Naruto from Obito. And to save the ASF from the Juubidama. Even Tobirama was blown away with his speed

by the way, his Shunshin is also considered teleportation. I know you meant Hiraishin (at least I'm 99% sure)


> Minato is a nice guy I never claimed opposite but Minato also does not fuck around. V2 Ei threatened him and Minato went for a killshot. He was impressed with Bee and saw promise in his mental and combat prowess. But he still threatened both Ei and Bee. Minato underestimated Bee's tact and Bee was aniticpating him so he was already going to strike at Bee the moment he saw Minato disappear. there is no reason to believe that all of those times that Minato didn't use lethal force against the two. Minato was mostly being countered as well and unable to land a finishing blow passed their durabilities.


Minato could have just as easily plunged that kunai into Bee's brain stem as Bee held his sword there. The reverse is also true of course, Bee coulda gotten Minato in the gut as he was just holding the kunai there. Though Minato's attack would have instantly killed Bee and Bee's attack would have taken enough time to kill Minato, that he may have still been able to to plunge that kunai into him. The way I saw Minato's movement is different from you. You saw it as Minato trying to kill Bee after Ay threatened him. I saw it as Minato basically just threatening him back. I saw the meaning as "I could kill you this easily if I wanted"

Or Kishi's portrayal of fighters? Base Bee and raikage are speedsters in base alone like Minato (see Bee dodge Juugo attack from smoke and use shushin across a mountain plateau). It's absurd to think them being boosted by such forms as V1 RCM and V1 chakra boost wouldn't make them physically faster than Minato, because of his hype with FTG. Sharingan users can comfrotably react to that speed, Sasuke dodged mid air and landed a genjutsu against V1 as well. You think Minato can do this blind? 
[/QUOTE]
huh? Is Minato fighting blind? I also don't view Bee as a speedster. He has an obscene amount of chakra with Gyuki, so it's not unreasonable for him to be faster than most due to this. But no, I don't see them being faster than Minato in your comparison. Ay's statement didn't have any conditions. It was a blunt "nobody could surpass him". There were no ifs, ands, or buts. 


> Why are you bringing up damage when we were talking about Sasuke outspeeding Ei in CqC physically? Ei being minamally injured (a feat he praised himself) does nothing to the speed feat lmao.


what I meant was Ay took it because he had no need to avoid it. Like how Madara took Onoki's attack when he could have avoided/absorbed it. At least that's how I saw it. Obviously, this is only my interpretation, he doesn't state it like how Madara did. But when he can move fast enough to leave an afterimage, it's not unreasonable to think he could have avoided that fairly simply


> Except anyone with competent reading comprehension can clearly see my previous post and this post itself contain far more substance than your one line claims of fact.
> 
> Ei literally thrives off outspeeding his opponent, and why would anyone let another fighter hit them? You are blatantly ignoring that Sasuke dodged his physical strike in V1, and then landed a counter attack from close. Clearly being quite capable of reacting and landing hits past Ei's V1. This is just blatantly obvious.
> 
> ...


truth be told, I respect this reply. I like being able to debate without childish bullshit. Most of the time I'm more concerned with learning something than I am being right. I'm sure cctr can attest to that. That bastard probably has a damn log of it.


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## Dr. White (Dec 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> that's the biggest issue with your argument though. I'm sure nobody will argue that Minato is faster with hiraishin than shunshin. But we don't have any actual comparison between the 2. Minato was still able to use his shunshin to save Naruto from Obito. And to save the ASF from the Juubidama. Even Tobirama was blown away with his speed


Yes we do. The comparison is Ei and Bee. Minato was forced to use teleportation to combat V2, he would have died without it. There is no reason to believe Minato is faster than someone like Bee by any non marginal amount. Kyuubi V1 took someone like base nardo in pt. 1 to  pretty decent threat and was much faster. Even the first time he used it vs Haku he went from slower than 1 tomoe sasuke to nigh blitzing Haku.



> by the way, his Shunshin is also considered teleportation. I know you meant Hiraishin (at least I'm 99% sure)
> Minato could have just as easily plunged that kunai into Bee's brain stem as Bee held his sword there. The reverse is also true of course, Bee coulda gotten Minato in the gut as he was just holding the kunai there. Though Minato's attack would have instantly killed Bee and Bee's attack would have taken enough time to kill Minato, that he may have still been able to to plunge that kunai into him. The way I saw Minato's movement is different from you. You saw it as Minato trying to kill Bee after Ay threatened him. I saw it as Minato basically just threatening him back. I saw the meaning as "I could kill you this easily if I wanted"


I don't see how you get that interpretation though. Minato had just used FTG to almost land a hit on Ei and Bee countered that. Minato didn't think Bee would understand the dynamics of hirashin and the seals function, and as a measure to calm Ei went to threaten Bee. That's why Minato never looked down until after he noticed the presence of a sword at his gut.Bee was most likely ready to thrust with his dying motion which would have caught Minato had he been serious (Even though yes I agree he wasn't in killing motion there). Minato then praising Bee's ingenuity in countering Hirashin twice (once to save Ei, and the other to threaten Minato) solidifies the exhancge of people on par, not that "Minato schooled both Ei and Bee at once" like people like to claim. Bee outdid Ei and Minato was obvious top player but Ei's talent was undeniable and an obvious threat to Minato, he just lacked the proper battle mindset.




> huh? Is Minato fighting blind? I also don't view Bee as a speedster. He has an obscene amount of chakra with Gyuki, so it's not unreasonable for him to be faster than most due to this. But no, I don't see them being faster than Minato in your comparison. Ay's statement didn't have any conditions. It was a blunt "nobody could surpass him". There were no ifs, ands, or buts.


Minato will know Itachi is an uchiha. So he can't look at Itachi's upper body. Problem is that Itachi can force eye contact in CqC and stuff like launching crimson nails while in the air (so Minato has to look up to block and thus at his face), has finger genjutsu, and can do so with karasu bushins. The latter of which Minato has no knowledge of. If Itachi can weave faster than 3 tomoe can see, karasu bushin and land a hit on sage Kabuto, and encounter Bee in CqC and pressure him in all exchanges until his swords came out, then Itachi has great chances at playing the gnejutsu game until Minato is caught. 

Base Bee and Minato are similar. V1 Bee is the one who is faster, his shushin literally leaves a jet trail and transfered enough KE to bust the plateau. 



> what I meant was Ay took it because he had no need to avoid it. Like how Madara took Onoki's attack when he could have avoided/absorbed it. At least that's how I saw it. Obviously, this is only my interpretation, he doesn't state it like how Madara did. But when he can move fast enough to leave an afterimage, it's not unreasonable to think he could have avoided that fairly simply


But that isn't comparable. Onooki's attack was an AOE attack and Madara stated he wanted to show off Hashirama's power on him which is debatable as a pride cover up but even nonwithstanding, Ei went to smash his skull in with a V1 charge. Sasuke ducked it and countered from close quarters with chidori to the chest. If mayweather throws a fist at me, and I duck it and slug him, then I was faster in that exhange. 

Ei could only afterimage Sasuke when he went into v2 which is the same speed he used vs Minato which forced him into hirashin. the problem is that Ei can't just power up to that form and shushin in CqC before Sasuke gets to him. It requires concentration just like Minato's sensing for example. Even Madara's shushin to hit Nardo was charged with a ram sign. 



> truth be told, I respect this reply. I like being able to debate without childish bullshit. Most of the time I'm more concerned with learning something than I am being right. I'm sure cctr can attest to that. That bastard probably has a damn log of it.


I can respect it, I thought you were trying to troll me and I may have had a 6 pack of IPA 


Monty Burns said:


> Comparing early Shippuden Naruto to Minato? In Bee's case, he was stood there and he looked into Itachi's eyes for a good couple of seconds, not under a second. Minato isn't going to do that here.


You seem to be under the impression that Minato has some sort of ability that disables genjutsu from affecting him like everyone else...Genjutsu is a hax, it's mind manipulation. It is literally canon that it only takes a glance. That is why even KAge level chiyo will tell you if it's 1v1 you better run, and that's vs generic competent 3 tomoe users. Itachi beat 3 of them at age 13...Minato will get caught if he looks at ITaci's finger during casting, same with his eyes, this is a fact. Bee did not "look in his eyes a good couple of seconds". Itachi casted his crimson nails from a higher ground which forced bee to look up to block the projectiles, literally Kishi gives us two panels in their eyes *and that was when Itachi caught Bee*, everything after Bee scorns his hand burning is an illusion from Bee's perspective...

How is Minato going to fight Itachi without looking at his eyes and not letting Itachi force it? How will he couinter no knowledge infger genjutsu or crow genjutsu?



> Minato was up against Kurama 1v1 and he used Food Cart Destroyer. Naruto was up against Zetsu and he used Food Cart Destroyer.


Yes and Kurama is a large beast not a single humanoid fighter. He literally used it to stop Kyuubi from charging a bjuudama...Vs Zetsu like I said, KCM Nardo and Zetsu didn't start 25m apart with knowledge of a fight taking place. KCM NArdo entered the battlefield, shushined to the air, and then casted FCD. Not to mention Zetsu was in tree monster form so he wasn't a normal humaniod.

FCD is not practical because Minato is not shushing above Itachi and casually summoning the toad on top of him. That's stupid as hell and has never happened in the manga for a reason.


> Minato used a clone against Obito in the 4th war without an FTG combo. So stop acting as if Minato can't or won't use it.


If you read my points and quoted them to respond you'd see i conceded he used it once for his special move which throughout the whole manga he only decided to use vs the Juubi Jin...Not vs a man he thought was Madara, or a regular Jin + a kage level fighter. That should tell you something buddy. The other time he already had the clone on the battlefield from a previous encounter in which he used it for utility, so that doesn't count as using it in an more discreet encounter.


> Minato's speed and reflexes will seal this victory and I forgot about Sage Mode, and before you say "he admitted he isn't good with it" or "that's not in character", he used it against Madara and gathered the natural fairly quickly, although he'll never have to use it.


once again he admitted it wasn't practical and used it because he was back as a zombie at the end of the world fighting for its survival...At best he can use like he did vs Madara for a quick burst, but the major problem is him standing still to knead nature chakra (which he sucks at) while not getting murked. Not to mention he still has to bypass feints (Itachi feinted a much better SM user) and genjutsu..


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## Baroxio (Dec 22, 2016)

It always amazes me that people still think Minato won't look Itachi in the eyes despite the above image. Especially when Minato literally thought that he might have been fighting Uchiha Madara, the greatest Uchiha with the greatest ocular powers.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yes we do. The comparison is Ei and Bee. Minato was forced to use teleportation to combat V2, he would have died without it. There is no reason to believe Minato is faster than someone like Bee by any non marginal amount. Kyuubi V1 took someone like base nardo in pt. 1 to  pretty decent threat and was much faster. Even the first time he used it vs Haku he went from slower than 1 tomoe sasuke to nigh blitzing Haku.


that's purely speculation though. Nothing says he would have died without using Hiraishin. He didn't have any sort of concerned look on his face or anything to imply that. He obviously wouldn't have been able to wait until Ay was like 0.1" away from his face, but there's nothing that says he needed to use Hiraishin. Even if he did need to use Hiraishin in that scenario, it doesn't give any contrast to his Shunshin speed whatsoever. All it showed was that he used his fastest technique to escape Ay's punch as Ay was a hair away from landing it

as for the Kyuubi cloak at that time, it was pretty much just Naruto's trump card in any situation. Made him fast enough to beat Haku, gave him a whole new chakra flow to beat Neji, ate Taco Bell to beat Kiba. Eventually Kishi took Trump Card abilities away from the cloak and gave it to his Nag no Jutsu instead


> I don't see how you get that interpretation though. Minato had just used FTG to almost land a hit on Ei and Bee countered that. Minato didn't think Bee would understand the dynamics of hirashin and the seals function, and as a measure to calm Ei went to threaten Bee. That's why Minato never looked down until after he noticed the presence of a sword at his gut.Bee was most likely ready to thrust with his dying motion which would have caught Minato had he been serious (Even though yes I agree he wasn't in killing motion there). Minato then praising Bee's ingenuity in countering Hirashin twice (once to save Ei, and the other to threaten Minato) solidifies the exhancge of people on par, not that "Minato schooled both Ei and Bee at once" like people like to claim. Bee outdid Ei and Minato was obvious top player but Ei's talent was undeniable and an obvious threat to Minato, he just lacked the proper battle mindset.


interpretation that Shunshin = Teleportation? If that's your question, it's due to the translations. For example, when Minato took the Juubidama to sea, Tobirama said his "Shunshin" was better than his own in Japanese. In English, it was translated to "Teleportation". Similarly, Shisui's "Teleportation" was also referred to as "Shunshin" in Japanese. 

But the rest of your statement seems to be pretty much the same way I saw it (I think). I simply didn't see it as Minato REQUIRING Hiraishin, but rather choosing his fastest technique, as well as threatening Bee, in an attempt to calm Ay down as you said. It seems the part we really disagree on is Hiraishin being needed or not. I understood it as him using his fastest technique to show Ay the biggest difference in their speeds. Where it seems you believe he used it because he didn't have any other choice. In reality, there's nothing to prove one theory superior to the other. 


> Minato will know Itachi is an uchiha. So he can't look at Itachi's upper body. Problem is that Itachi can force eye contact in CqC and stuff like launching crimson nails while in the air (so Minato has to look up to block and thus at his face), has finger genjutsu, and can do so with karasu bushins. The latter of which Minato has no knowledge of. If Itachi can weave faster than 3 tomoe can see, karasu bushin and land a hit on sage Kabuto, and encounter Bee in CqC and pressure him in all exchanges until his swords came out, then Itachi has great chances at playing the gnejutsu game until Minato is caught.


I would imagine Minato, being touted as a "once in generations genius", would have a method for fighting a dojutsu user that's a bit more refined than Guy, who was touted as having the intelligence of a "subhuman beast" (lol. I can't help but to laugh at remembering how Kisame was ripping on him at that point). But having never seen Minato fight a dojutsu user, thus being unable to prove how he'd respond, it's all speculation. 


> Base Bee and Minato are similar. V1 Bee is the one who is faster, his shushin literally leaves a jet trail and transfered enough KE to bust the plateau.


but at the same time, Naruto outran Ay without any jet trail or breaking the ground. And at the time, that was the absolute fastest speed shown in the story. So a trail and a violent landing aren't necessary observations for a top speed movement


> But that isn't comparable. Onooki's attack was an AOE attack and Madara stated he wanted to show off Hashirama's power on him which is debatable as a pride cover up but even nonwithstanding, Ei went to smash his skull in with a V1 charge. Sasuke ducked it and countered from close quarters with chidori to the chest. If mayweather throws a fist at me, and I duck it and slug him, then I was faster in that exhange.


sure. In that single exchange. But let's be honest, would you consider that an example of your superior speed? Or a fluke? I boxed for years and I'd say I have better odds of getting struck by lightning while cashing the winning powerball ticket than ducking Mayweather's punch and landing a counter. But what I was saying and why I thought Ay let the Chidori land, was to basically say "yeah bitch. I can take your attack right at my vitals and take zero damage". That's why I likened it to Madara's choice to let the attack land as well. Except he said "bitch I got yo' granddaddy"


> Ei could only afterimage Sasuke when he went into v2 which is the same speed he used vs Minato which forced him into hirashin. the problem is that Ei can't just power up to that form and shushin in CqC before Sasuke gets to him. It requires concentration just like Minato's sensing for example. Even Madara's shushin to hit Nardo was charged with a ram sign.


Did it? It didn't look like Ay did very much when he activated it to me. But alright. That may be the case. But it doesn't have a direct impact on this matchup


> I can respect it, I thought you were trying to troll me and I may have had a 6 pack of IPA


lol, fair enough


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> It always amazes me that people still think Minato won't look Itachi in the eyes despite the above image. Especially when Minato literally thought that he might have been fighting Uchiha Madara, the greatest Uchiha with the greatest ocular powers.


hm. That's a good point. I didn't even think about that fight because it was pretty much centered around Hiraishin. But that part of it is definitely relevant


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 23, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> hm. That's a good point. I didn't even think about that fight because it was pretty much centered around Hiraishin. But that part of it is definitely relevant


No its not he can use his eye cuz of kunai so.. looking into eyes doesnt change the fact... Plus, someone can make another argument from that moment (not me); " He is probably have a solid counter to genjutsu cuz he dont have any fear against even Madara's himself"

SO ? So thats why that scenes are unnecessary.
____________________________________________

First of all ı want to remind something to you... We have a real Itachi Vs Minato poll in NBD.. And with some gap Minato is the winner due to votes.

In that fight, Minato had everything he got (except kcm) and Itachi had everything he got and he considered as healthy..

But still most post and votes goes to Minato....

And ıf we're look up to the manga.. We can clearly see portrayal wise Minato > Itachi..

So lets look at it whats change for that topic;

Minato has no FTG, ITachi has no tsukuyomi, amaterasu, susano (yata mirror, yasaka magatama, totsuga blade), MS precog, ızanami, izanagi

Hmmm ?!

FTG gives what to Minato ?

Speed, Unpredictabilty, various combat Angles, Escape Artician, Attack Reflection, Instant Teleport. Its fine and this jutsu its the main reason why he is considered as high-kage level person.

Without it which one of those still can be replaced (somewhat)

He is still fast, still has seals and even might be barriers (due to Jiraiya and Toads), Summon, Sensory + Clones still gives him a many angles from battle field.

So attack reflection, tagging, instant teleport and constant teleport are the kinda most important things that he gave up.

But again ı want to say these are makes him a very special high-kage level char... Is he needs those against 3T Itachi ?

With these he already saw as superior than Healthy MS ITachi for most of the NBD posters and Naruto readers.

So why now he needs those luxuries for 3T Itachi ?

3T Itachi can survive from Kirin ? Can race on genjutsu with Hebi Sasuke ? Even can beat him ?

I have serious doubts.

So you're basically keep tellin;

FTG is the only thing that makes Minato stronger than Hebi Sasuke .. but somehow he is better than ITachi and at same level with Obito ( ıf he is not better than him) when he has FTG


This is kinda irrational !?

One jutsu makes you leap up dozens of characters ?!? Due to this logic Tobirama without ftg must be a fodder for 3T ıtachi  or any other chars..

So we have to admit, even without enough feats , only portrayal and relations between power scales makes FTG Free Minato better than MS Free Itachi.




_________________________________________

@cctr9 already gave all feats that needed so ı want to focused on logical/portrayal siide of this match-up.

But ıf ı have to put somethings on physicall side of this battle ;


Without MS;

Itachi has any of execution jutsu, his precog quality gonna down, his genjutsu quality gonna down, he hasnt susano, he is open to any attack. He cant deal with Summon or giant creatures properly he hasnt totsuga or amaterasu...

Orochimaru and Senjutsu Juiced 3T Sasuke able to cornered Itachi and stalemate with Deidara ..

So how 3T Itachi (who is hasnt any assets that Hebi Sasuke has) gonna win against Minato ?

Genjutsu -> He is to fast and he has summon
Katon -> With that size ?
Suiton -> Lacks of feat and again with that size ?
cqc -> rasengan gonna be problem
shurikenjutsu -> He has his own special kunai- so bring it on.

Only chance he has is genjutsu.. But with small summons or large summons this can done. And ı dont want to use (cuz featless, you have to know at least 2 release type for being a jonin so its not irrational at all) but due to last databook Minato have fire release ...

So Katon: Gamayu Endan is another option Minato have..

(by the way using MS precog feats for this fight is kinda wrong. You have to decrease that feat due to MS > 3T  )


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> No its not he can use his eye cuz of kunai so.. looking into eyes doesnt change the fact... Plus, someone can make another argument from that moment (not me); " He is probably have a solid counter to genjutsu cuz he dont have any fear against even Madara's himself"
> 
> SO ? So thats why that scenes are unnecessary.
> ____________________________________________
> ...


can Obito not use Genjutsu while intangible? The only example that I could really think of where he did was the nonsense from a movie that doesn't count. Plus, he tried using kamui at that same scene with the Kunai. If he could have put him under Genjutsu instead, it would have been the safer choice, as it wouldn't have allowed Minato to counter him like he did


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 23, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> It always amazes me that people still think Minato won't look Itachi in the eyes despite the above image. Especially when Minato literally thought that he might have been fighting Uchiha Madara, the greatest Uchiha with the greatest ocular powers.


He could have been looking in forehead neck for all we know?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2016)

professor83 said:


> He could have been looking in forehead neck for all we know?


Exactly. I hate when people use that lame ass panel. He was looking in his general direction, but that doesn't mean he was mesmerized by Obito's eyes. Considering Minato is hyped to be a genius many times, im pretty sure he wasn't looking into " Madara Uchiha's" eyes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Dec 23, 2016)

VHS said:


> As for speed, Minato without FTG is in the same ballpark as Itachi


No.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blu-ray (Dec 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No.


Not enough of a difference to cause a significant advantage then.

Just about every battle had his speed attributed to Hiraishin and his reflexes. Judging from how Itachi fared against the likes of Bee, KCM Naruto and Kabuto, it's not like Minato can dance circles around him.


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## Android (Dec 23, 2016)

VHS said:


> Not enough of a difference to cause a significant advantage then.
> 
> Just about every battle had his speed attributed to Hiraishin and his reflexes. Judging from how Itachi fared against the likes of Bee, KCM Naruto and Kabuto, it's not like Minato can dance circles around him.


Judging from the feats , Minato would leave the Uchiha in the dust in terms of traveling from point A to point B speed 
The gap in speed isn't enuff for the blondy to blitz the Uchiha , but it's enuff to make a difference in this fight .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

VHS said:


> Not enough of a difference to cause a significant advantage then.
> 
> Just about every battle had his speed attributed to Hiraishin and his reflexes. Judging from how Itachi fared against the likes of Bee, KCM Naruto and Kabuto, it's not like Minato can dance circles around him.


those aren't exactly the best examples of fights though. Naruto was having a conversation with Itachi while Itachi was being controlled and forced to fight, while Bee was confused as to what the hell was going on. As for the Kabuto fight, it was 2v1 and a clusterf**k to explain. Itachi/Sasuke were trying to not kill Kabuto, and Kabuto was trying to take Sasuke alive and just rewrite Itachi (I don't think I'll ever understand why he didn't just undo Itachi's reanimation and re-summon him right after he lost control over him... seems like a pretty significant oversight)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 23, 2016)

>Hiraishin banned
>Apparenty Itachi is harmed more by the restrictions.

ck


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## Rai (Dec 23, 2016)

14 year old Obito was able to keep up with Minato, but Itachi can't


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 23, 2016)

ℜai said:


> 14 year old Obito was able to keep with Minato, but Itachi can't


14 year obito had s/t jutsu to keep up with minato itachi doesnot . He was destroyed none the less.


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## Rai (Dec 23, 2016)

14 year old Obito was keeping up with Minato in foot speed.

Nothing to do with S/T.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 23, 2016)

@professor83 

Kai is the most funniest and the cunniest troll and warming member ı ever seen.. And ı think he is trolling again.. Dont get serious  

Plus Hashi cells, extreme regen, great knowledge on minato, kamui and special education from madara over years are far better assets than anything 3T Itachi have

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Dec 23, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> @professor83
> 
> Kai is the most funniest and the cunniest troll and warming member ı ever seen.. And ı think he is trolling again.. Dont get serious
> 
> Plus Hashi cells, extreme regen, great knowledge on minato, kamui and special education from madara over years are far better assets than anything 3T Itachi have



Im of the impression that Kai goes from joking to serious in a moment. Like for example i think he's serious with his last two posts (but maybe that's just me )

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Rai (Dec 23, 2016)

My username is Rai not Kai

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ayala (Dec 23, 2016)

Rai is a tv station in Italy also

Reactions: Informative 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

ℜai said:


> My username is Rai not Kai


lmao. Well played

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> @professor83
> 
> Kai is the most funniest and the cunniest troll and warming member ı ever seen.. And ı think he is trolling again.. Dont get serious
> 
> Plus Hashi cells, extreme regen, great knowledge on minato, kamui and special education from madara over years are far better assets than anything 3T Itachi have


not to mention Minato suffered an ankle injury almost immediately in that fight. He also knew nothing about Obito at the time, and needed to separate Kyubi from him. He was trying to separate Kurama and figure him as a person, as well as his techniques, out. About as quickly as he took Kurama from him and figured out how he could hit him, Obito fled


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## Sapherosth (Dec 23, 2016)

People are wondering why Obito never tried to use genjutsu during his fight with Minato. 

1. Obito isn't a primary genjutsu user. 
2. He was occupied with controlling Kurama (Minato even stated that Obito must be rushing to end the battle, which was favourable for Minato since he'll take more risks with solidifying himself).


As for the part about Minato looking at Obito's forehead/neck to avoid genjutsu.

Why the hell did Gai of all people only look at Itachi's feet and Kabuto closes his eyes completely if just looking at the forehead or neck was a feasible method? 

Use some common sense.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Except he dodged V1 Bee and V1 Raikage with 3 tomoe


I feel like anyone can dodge V1 Raikage/V1 Bee (except perhaps 2T+ V1) as he was kinda surprised when Sasuke dodged him w/3TS.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 23, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> can Obito not use Genjutsu while intangible? The only example that I could really think of where he did was the nonsense from a movie that doesn't count. Plus, he tried using kamui at that same scene with the Kunai. If he could have put him under Genjutsu instead, it would have been the safer choice, as it wouldn't have allowed Minato to counter him like he did


How did Obito subjugate the Paths?

But he should be able to, he was able to use a genjutsu on Kurama and it maintained until Minato interrupted his contract seal.


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> that's purely speculation though. Nothing says he would have died without using Hiraishin. He didn't have any sort of concerned look on his face or anything to imply that. He obviously wouldn't have been able to wait until Ay was like 0.1" away from his face, but there's nothing that says he needed to use Hiraishin. Even if he did need to use Hiraishin in that scenario, it doesn't give any contrast to his Shunshin speed whatsoever. All it showed was that he used his fastest technique to escape Ay's punch as Ay was a hair away from landing it


It's not speculation at all, it's literally the whole point of the scene and the defining fight showing us their battle dynamic. Everything is to say he needed Hirashin, Ei moved a whole 10m of space and the best Minato could do was muster a kunai up. Go ahead and pretend you are throwing a kunai up from your waist. Now in that time, Ei moved about 30ft through the air. The fact that Minato still got marked on his nose is Kishi literal showing Minato dodged (and to be fair set up the kunai but that timeframe is marginal) "by the skin on his nose". It gives us a direct comparison between Minato and by extension his speed/shushin. A person needs to be as fast as their body in order to compensate things like control, balance, etc. We saw this when KCM NArdo couldn't handle his speed and crashed into a wall. Physical speed is pretty much never over a person's reaction time as the brain as to understand and send messages to the body as the origion of the command. Minato's reaction time was pushed to the limit and he impressively got a physical movement in, which is why Minato's mental reactions are > Young V2 Ei shushin. But Minato is obviously no where on that level physically as once again, Ei moved meters before Minato could process and could only muster moving inches and thinking. It's pretty clear cut dude.



> as for the Kyuubi cloak at that time, it was pretty much just Naruto's trump card in any situation. Made him fast enough to beat Haku, gave him a whole new chakra flow to beat Neji, ate Taco Bell to beat Kiba. Eventually Kishi took Trump Card abilities away from the cloak and gave it to his Nag no Jutsu instead


Bjuu cloaks amp all physical abilities of the person while also giving them the cloak as an extension of themselves for attack/defense. But the point is someone like Bee with that type of chakra boost should be faster than Minato physically given Bee is comparable in speed in his base form.



> interpretation that Shunshin = Teleportation? If that's your question, it's due to the translations. For example, when Minato took the Juubidama to sea, Tobirama said his "Shunshin" was better than his own in Japanese. In English, it was translated to "Teleportation". Similarly, Shisui's "Teleportation" was also referred to as "Shunshin" in Japanese.


Yeah I know about this, and this is also why I believe that Tobirama was talking about his FTG when hyping Minato as better than himself. I still believe Minato is quicker than Tobirama, but like Minato's hype, Tobirama's hype comes more from his FTG usage, nothing indicating his shushin was the best in the world. Minato and Tobirama both have ridiculous reactions and amazing base speed (like Bee, Ei, Gai, Itachi, etc) but nothing in this manga indicates those people are > V1 forms of people like Bee, Ei, etc.  sanbi Naruto? Maybe because base Nardo was not a speedster. Ei and his dad amp their speed wwith raiton to the nervous system and Bee gets generic Bjuu ampage.



> But the rest of your statement seems to be pretty much the same way I saw it (I think). I simply didn't see it as Minato REQUIRING Hiraishin, but rather choosing his fastest technique, as well as threatening Bee, in an attempt to calm Ay down as you said. It seems the part we really disagree on is Hiraishin being needed or not. I understood it as him using his fastest technique to show Ay the biggest difference in their speeds. Where it seems you believe he used it because he didn't have any other choice. In reality, there's nothing to prove one theory superior to the other.


There are multiple indicators that Minato needed FTG. Ei was the one hyped for his speed. We know how he does it, and even Minato himself knew of Ei's ability. Ei immediately charged and got that close to Minato. Minato would not let somoene get that close to him if he was casually reacting to Ei. Minato literally could only move that kunai inches away from his hand and teleport immediately fia FTG. He got marked on his nose, and Ei obviously knew he had him pressed as he thought he could blitz him to the next kunai if he knew which one Minato would jump too. Minato chose the best counter which was to threaten Bee since he was able to tag him when Bee intercepted his FTG strike. But he didn't know unlike Ei, Bee had anticipated his usage, and aimed his sword behind his back as a premptory defense. Hence the subsequent hype he gave Bee.



> I would imagine Minato, being touted as a "once in generations genius", would have a method for fighting a dojutsu user that's a bit more refined than Guy, who was touted as having the intelligence of a "subhuman beast" (lol. I can't help but to laugh at remembering how Kisame was ripping on him at that point). But having never seen Minato fight a dojutsu user, thus being unable to prove how he'd respond, it's all speculation.


But this is actual speculation. Gai is simple minded and goofy but he isn't dumb. Gai literally fought Kakashi day in and day out so that is direct experience with someone who is super intelligent and had 3 tomoe like most competent adult uchiha ninja. Looking at the feet is needed because you literally cannot match gazes with a sharingan users, and as we saw with kakashi clone vs shouten clone, eye contact can be forced. So looking at the mid section or "lol forehead" is not a good enough counter. Hence why a whole village of peoples banned fighting Uchiha 1v1.



> but at the same time, Naruto outran Ay without any jet trail or breaking the ground. And at the time, that was the absolute fastest speed shown in the story. So a trail and a violent landing aren't necessary observations for a top speed movement


Nardo does leave a light trail when he travels this can be several times in the story including his way to the battlefield, some of his attack in KCM vs the edo's, and I believe also in his raikage fight.

The reason I pointed out Bee's shushin is because it was a long distance shushin. Most of NArdo's feats are short range but fast, while Bee's were comparable distances to to Minato's shushin feats. Base Bee jumped in base and didn't leave a trail or vibrate the rock as Karin had to sense him out, but then in V1 he left a trail, was obviously faster, and broke the plateau with KE. My bet is 100% on V1 Bee beating Minato in physical travel speed.



> sure. In that single exchange. But let's be honest, would you consider that an example of your superior speed? Or a fluke? I boxed for years and I'd say I have better odds of getting struck by lightning while cashing the winning powerball ticket than ducking Mayweather's punch and landing a counter. But what I was saying and why I thought Ay let the Chidori land, was to basically say "yeah bitch. I can take your attack right at my vitals and take zero damage". That's why I likened it to Madara's choice to let the attack land as well. Except he said "bitch I got yo' granddaddy"


Nah dude that is too much assuming.
A.) Ei was literally fuming at Sasuke. Not only was this dude breaking into a Kage meeting as an S class criminal, but Ei was under the asusumption he did major damage and possibly killed Bee. He went into V1 to obviously gain some speed, as that is what V1 does. In no scenario does Sasuke "luckily" dodge his elbow, and casually land a blow on Ei because the latter let him due to pride. Nothing indicates Ei could have went into V2, planted his feet and shushind away after comprehending that Sasuke ducked his elbow. Sasuke was fast enough to land the blow after the counter. In no way does that read as Sasuke not outmaneuvering Ei to the upmost of possibility. His only obstacle was the Ei is durable as fuck, and chidori only went about an inch and a half in.

You can't compare a long range AOE attack and Madara "choosing" to stand still, to two people running at eachother with attacks and one dodging and landing a strike in CqC, especially when Ei's Neurons and muscles are being amped by Raiton.



> Did it? It didn't look like Ay did very much when he activated it to me. But alright. That may be the case. But it doesn't have a direct impact on this matchup


Yeah in V2 his hair stands up and it is maximum raiton amping his neurons and muscles. It's what he opened with vs Minato. He brought it out in response to MS/Susanoo protecting Sasuke from his Powerbomb.



professor83 said:


> He could have been looking in forehead neck for all we know?


I'm sorry but this is ultimate denial of jutsu portrayal and feats to suit a character bias.

A.) Minato is looking directly into his occular area. You can clearly track my mans line of eyesight and it is not "looking at his forehead".
B.) Minato saw his sharingan and deduced he was controlling the Kyuubi with it, hence why he thought Madara before dismissing it because of the timeline.
C.) Looking at the forehead is still in eye gaze distance. You have two modes of vision and one accounts for detail and the other motion. It's the reason I can see my fans in front of me while typing this sentence. The forehead is literally inches away from the eyes so it's not even using major periphery vision, and we saw Bee get caught through multiple shuriken on fire which he was trying to block, and Itachi was a fair distance away so Bee was clearly not focused directly on Itachi's iris.

Itachi got Naruto from meters away with a glancing wave, and I highly doubt Naruto stared down of detail of his cuticle. people are really trying to downplay the potency of genjutsu here. Sharingan genjutsu is specifically powerful. The same people to ignore sharingan Sand village hype are probably the first to sue Minato's "Flee on sight" hype, yet both were accomplished vs no named ninja (bar Chiyo who we know was frightened). The difference being the genjutsu hype applies to generic 3 tomoe wielding users, and not one of the ebst genjutsu users in the manga in Itachi.

But I digress

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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I feel like anyone can dodge V1 Raikage/V1 Bee (except perhaps 2T+ V1) as he was kinda surprised when Sasuke dodged him w/3TS.


Bee said no one had ever dodged his V1 lariat besides his brothers. Base Bee has some of the best shushin feats in the manga in base, V1 canonically makes him faster.

You can react to something many times faster than yourself by moving a shorter distance in the same timeframe. It's the reason why lightning is sub relativistic, but not every lightning timing feat is that level of speed. Moving 1 meter out of the strike AOE will allow you to dodge if your hypersonic for instance. 

That's why "Minato being faster than v2 top speed" is a misnomer. He is fast enough to move some distance before Ei can complete the distance to him (swining his arm a foot or two into the air). But start Minato 5 feat away from Ei before his shushin and we have a different story...

For example Sasuke was completely compromised vs Bee mid air and dodged V1 with impressive acrobatics and reactions. But he was still far away. When Sasuke thought he genjutsu'd bee he turned his back (another compromised position) and then Bee blitzed the ever loving fuck out of him and broke his chest into pieces. In that scenario Sasuke was like a couple of meters at most away from Bee.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> People are wondering why Obito never tried to use genjutsu during his fight with Minato.
> 
> 1. Obito isn't a primary genjutsu user.
> 2. He was occupied with controlling Kurama (Minato even stated that Obito must be rushing to end the battle, which was favourable for Minato since he'll take more risks with solidifying himself).
> ...


at the time of that scan, Minato had already separated the Kyubi from Obito though. And he's used Genjutsu on Fu and Torune, who were supposed to be highly trained ANBU. Not to mention he used it on Kurama, leading Minato to think he was actually Madara without him even lying about it


Ryuzaki said:


> How did Obito subjugate the Paths?
> 
> But he should be able to, he was able to use a genjutsu on Kurama and it maintained until Minato interrupted his contract seal.


I don't think he needed to use Genjutsu for Pain. It seemed to me he convinced Nagato after Yahiko's death. But yeah, I had always assumed he could use it while intangible. But it's possible he lost control of Kurama while intangible, his objective was simply the destruction of Konoha, and Kurama was doing that even after Minato separated them. I'm not really sure. But he was able to suck in Fu (I think. It may have been Torune) and place him under Genjutsu while intangible to pass through the archway of that bridge. But I guess it's not stated that he put him under Genjutsu at that time. It just makes the best sense that he would


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## Rai (Dec 23, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> *at the time of that scan, Minato had already separated the Kyubi from Obito though.* And he's used Genjutsu on Fu and Torune, who were supposed to be highly trained ANBU. Not to mention he used it on Kurama, leading Minato to think he was actually Madara without him even lying about it
> 
> I don't think he needed to use Genjutsu for Pain. It seemed to me he convinced Nagato after Yahiko's death. But yeah, I had always assumed he could use it while intangible. But it's possible he lost control of Kurama while intangible, his objective was simply the destruction of Konoha, and Kurama was doing that even after Minato separated them. I'm not really sure. But he was able to suck in Fu (I think. It may have been Torune) and place him under Genjutsu while intangible to pass through the archway of that bridge. But I guess it's not stated that he put him under Genjutsu at that time. It just makes the best sense that he would



He was still controlling Kurama.

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## Serene Grace (Dec 23, 2016)

Minato wins.

Itachi likely gets overpowered by boss summonings. No MS means no Susanoo, so Itachi's defense is ridiculously limited I doubt he could survive one slash from one of the boss summonings, never the less multiple slashes.

Even outside of that, Itachi with 3TS hasn't really done anything, that would make me put him as Minato's equal in terms of speed.

And if he uses genjutsu on summonings....  Using genjutsu to control an entity as a big as Gambunta is very chakra taxy, chakra we all know Itachi doesn't have. Though suggesting he could put all boss summonings in a genjutsu is completely absurd and an even funnier notion

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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Minato wins.
> 
> Itachi likely gets overpowered by boss summonings. No MS means no Susanoo, so Itachi's defense is ridiculously limited I doubt he could survive one slash from one of the boss summonings, never the less multiple slashes.
> 
> ...


Not IC and they get hit with genjutsu easy. You have zero proof that genjutsu on a summon would take extensive chakra. Obito was casually controlloing Kyuubi while fighting Minato, and Sasuke used genjutsu towards the end of his fight vs Diedara on the particularly unruly Manda. When he complained about not having enough chakra to even use sharingan. Sick Itachi outlasted Hebi Sauce in chakra and was using MS techniques which even shouten Itachi couldn't use (that's how costly they are). That is a lame cop out excuse to Itachi perfectly countering large summons.

Itachi's defense is not as limited as you are making it out to be. Itachi danced around Killer Bee and KCM Nardo and blocked 7 sword kenjutsu, he clone feinted sharingan and weaves faster than it can detect, and feinted SM Kabuto with a karasu bushin. His defense is not getting hit. Minato is similar except he uses FTG. What is his defense here 

Show me combat feats of Minato being >> Itachi in speed because nothing suggest that as I have outlined in previous post.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 23, 2016)

I find it hilarious that 99% of the arguments people use to say Itachi lose is "he gets outlasted". As if outlasting has ever happened in the manga when 2 people aren't far apart.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> they get hit with genjutsu easy.


All three of them? Gambunta is comparable to bijju in size, an entity as big as him would likely be enough for Itachi, but suggesting that Itachi puts all three of them in one is outright hilarious.



Dr. White said:


> You have zero proof that genjutsu on a summon would take extensive chakra.


Why would I? Gambunta clearly has a great amount of chakra, and is comparable to shuaku(a bijjui) in size, it's clearly gonna take huge amounts of chakra for Itachi to control him, never the less all of them who are basically equal to him in size.


This is Obito, who has far more stamina/chakra then Itachi does. Not sure why you're using him as an example.



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke used genjutsu towards the end of his fight vs Diedara on the particularly unruly Manda. When he complained about not having enough chakra to even use sharingan. Sick Itachi outlasted Hebi Sauce in chakra and was using MS techniques which even shouten Itachi couldn't use (that's how costly they are).


I never said you need a lot of chakra, I said it's chakra taxy which are two completely different things. This all equates to Itachi catching one of them in genjutsu(which I could agree with) no way in hell is he doing it for all of them.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi's defense is not as limited as you are making it out to be. Itachi danced around Killer Bee and KCM Nardo and blocked 7 sword kenjutsu, he clone feinted sharingan and weaves faster than it can detect, and feinted SM Kabuto with a karasu bushin. His defense is not getting hit. Minato is similar except he uses FTG. What is his defense here
> 
> Show me combat feats of Minato being >> Itachi in speed because nothing suggests that as I have outlined in previous post.


Did you read my post? I never said anything about Minato being over Itachi in combat, I said that Itachi's defense is limited hence he can't do anything to protect himself from the summoning attacking him head on. Itachi "keeping up" Kcm Naruto and Bee is not a viable defensive feat to suggest he survives anything the boss summonings dish out.  Ha, what does Minato need defense for, what will Itachi throw at him, a kunai?


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## Parallaxis (Dec 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I find it hilarious that 99% of the arguments people use to say Itachi lose is "he gets outlasted". As if outlasting has ever happened in the manga when 2 people aren't far apart.




And Itachi wasn't even serious.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 23, 2016)

The gama trio soloing Itachi.

Wow....


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> All three of them? Gambunta is comparable to bijju in size, an entity as big as him would likely be enough for Itachi, but suggesting that Itachi puts all three of them in one is outright hilarious.


Yes all 3 of them. Itachi was hyped capable of using genjutsu on multiple people passed detection of sensors. The only reason he was ruled out for the Zetsu copy killing was because they were happening over way to huge a radius. Finger wag, or crow genjutsu is enough to reach them. 

Once again you aren't proving anything. Sasuke with next to no chakra was able to genjutsu Manda and make him kill himself. Sasuke wouldn't have been able to genjutsu Manda if it took an excessive amount of chakra because the activation energy would be huge. IF the activation energy is low then I see no reason why it's chakra usage rate would increase. Therefore we know it does not cost excessive amounts of chakra to genjutsu a summon, and gnejutsu in of itself uses minimum chakra and requires precise chakra control. So not buying it.




> Why would I? Gambunta clearly has a great amount of chakra, and is comparable to shuaku(a bijjui) in size, it's clearly gonna take huge amounts of chakra for Itachi to control him, never the less all of them who are basically equal to him in size.


Why would you need to provide evidence for the burden of proof? Because this is an argument? Genjutsu has never been shown to be chakra heavy in maintenance or usage bar MS and what not. Mizukage was casually controlling  a battlefield AOE of genjutsu, is he a chakra god? This is not the same as summoning something which you seem to be confused with, and Sasuke did that right before genjutsui'ing Manda 




> This is Obito, who has far more stamina/chakra then Itachi does. Not sure why you're using him as an example.


I'm comparing his conrol over Kyuubi casually while fighting Minato. It obviously was not something he had to spend loads of chakra doing. Compared to say, sreading out his chakra over rods to control the Bjuu that way.




> I never said you need a lot of chakra, I said it's chakra taxy which are two completely different things. This all equates to Itachi catching one of them in genjutsu(which I could agree with) no way in hell is he doing it for all of them.


A.) Minato is not summoning all 3 of those toads without the need ala other large summons are present, he needs a meat shield, he's heavily outnumbered, etc. He didn't do so vs Ei, and Bee. He didn't do so vs Obito. He literally summoned against the Kyuubi to stop it's Bjuudama. 
B.) Why would getting all 3 of them be hard? They are huge and Itachi is leagues quicker than them.  Itachi leaped form Killer Bee mid 7 swords dance, and got dozens of meters on him by jumping onto Nagato's summon. The summons are not reacting to Itachi's speed, and he also has precise weapon timing. The fact that his crows can also genjutsu seals le deal. 



> Did you read my post? I never said anything about Minato being over Itachi in combat, I said that Itachi's defense is limited hence he can't do anything to protect himself from the summoning attacking him head on. Itachi "keeping up" Kcm Naruto and Bee is not a viable defensive feat to suggest he survives anything the boss summonings dish out.  Ha, what does Minato need defense for, what will Itachi throw at him, a kunai?


Yeah I read your post and was obviously responding to the portion where you said Itachi has never done anything to match Minato's speed, so I gave you relative speed feats. Minato can easily get clone cucked like Kabuto did in SM, except Itachi would cut Minato's actual head, he can use crow genjutsu if he attacks  the clone, and Minato isd ebilitated by having to not look at Itachi's eyes, so goodluck at peeping ninjutsu being cast, and clone feints that even sharingan/SM sensing can't peep. Itachi is more versatile and his expertise in his base areas (weapons, genjutsu, elemental/clone ninjutsu, well rounded kenjutsu/taijutsu) exceeds Minato without the utility of FTG.


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> And Itachi wasn't even serious.


Lmao terminally ill Itachi who just used a shit ton of chakra via his base arsenal and MS had enough chakra to use transcription seal with Amaterasu after abusing Susanoo. But Itachi is gonna be taxed using basic genjutsu ck


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## Baroxio (Dec 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao terminally ill Itachi who just used a shit ton of chakra via his base arsenal and MS had enough chakra to use transcription seal with Amaterasu after abusing Susanoo. But Itachi is gonna be taxed using basic genjutsu ck



It's worse than that. That's a terminally ill Itachi who basically just outlasted Hebi Sasuke with Curse Seal, after battling Orochimaru and his strongest technique, then kept on using Susano against a Sasuke with nothing left, saying that he "wanted to savor this."


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## Rai (Dec 23, 2016)

King Itachi wins 

Close this thread


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## Android (Dec 23, 2016)

Jesus Christ almighty ! Minato vs Itachi should be banned from NBD  

Also Minato rapes the poor Uchiha  

Lol @  Itachi using Genjutsu on toad dropping on his ass from above , he gets crushed like a bug


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 23, 2016)

Minato seals itachi in a near by dog ant or whatever

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Dec 23, 2016)

Itachi's name actually means " Weasel " , so it'd be fitting for Minato to seal him into a one


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## Sapherosth (Dec 23, 2016)

Namikaze sounds similar to Kamikaze which means suicide, so it's a fitting name for Minato to commit suicide.

Genjutsu control to suicide perhaps? 

Or perhaps he takes it himself so he can avoid the pain that Itachi will bring him inside genjutsu land.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 23, 2016)



Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It's not speculation at all, it's literally the whole point of the scene and the defining fight showing us their battle dynamic. Everything is to say he needed Hirashin, Ei moved a whole 10m of space and the best Minato could do was muster a kunai up. Go ahead and pretend you are throwing a kunai up from your waist. Now in that time, Ei moved about 30ft through the air. The fact that Minato still got marked on his nose is Kishi literal showing Minato dodged (and to be fair set up the kunai but that timeframe is marginal) "by the skin on his nose". It gives us a direct comparison between Minato and by extension his speed/shushin. A person needs to be as fast as their body in order to compensate things like control, balance, etc. We saw this when KCM NArdo couldn't handle his speed and crashed into a wall. Physical speed is pretty much never over a person's reaction time as the brain as to understand and send messages to the body as the origion of the command. Minato's reaction time was pushed to the limit and he impressively got a physical movement in, which is why Minato's mental reactions are > Young V2 Ei shushin. But Minato is obviously no where on that level physically as once again, Ei moved meters before Minato could process and could only muster moving inches and thinking. It's pretty clear cut dude.


It's entirely speculation man. Whether it's yours or mine. I saw it as Minato not feeling pressure or need to rush (due to his expression) and just casually flipping his kunai into position where he could kill Ay. That's kinda his move, he did similar vs Obito, but threw it because Obito would phase through it. If Hiraishin was the only reason he was considered the fastest shinobi they would have needed to mention Tobirama as well as Genma, Tony Montana, and Larry (I dunno the last 2s names, so went with Scarface and 3 Stooges references) since they could use it as well. As far as your KCM Narddog example. He crashed into the wall at that time, but later outran V2 Ay without denting the ground. And Minato was known as the Yellow Flash for his speed. He's had a bit longer than Naruto's few hours to learn to control his speed


> Bjuu cloaks amp all physical abilities of the person while also giving them the cloak as an extension of themselves for attack/defense. But the point is someone like Bee with that type of chakra boost should be faster than Minato physically given Bee is comparable in speed in his base form.


and yet Minato, and only Minato, was the one the Raikage considered faster than him. not to mention the entire shinobi world viewed him as the fastest


> Yeah I know about this, and this is also why I believe that Tobirama was talking about his FTG when hyping Minato as better than himself. I still believe Minato is quicker than Tobirama, but like Minato's hype, Tobirama's hype comes more from his FTG usage, nothing indicating his shushin was the best in the world. Minato and Tobirama both have ridiculous reactions and amazing base speed (like Bee, Ei, Gai, Itachi, etc) but nothing in this manga indicates those people are > V1 forms of people like Bee, Ei, etc.  sanbi Naruto? Maybe because base Nardo was not a speedster. Ei and his dad amp their speed wwith raiton to the nervous system and Bee gets generic Bjuu ampage.


base Nard WASN'T a speedster. But after the fact, he had no problem using his Shunshin in base as an adult to grab Boruto on the Great Stone Faces in an instant. And while there's nothing indicating his Shunshin was the best in the world, the opposite is true as well. There's nothing saying his Shunshin wasn't the best in the world. And there was no clarification that it was his Hiraishin was the best either. All that was said was that he was the fastest. Period. 


> There are multiple indicators that Minato needed FTG. Ei was the one hyped for his speed. We know how he does it, and even Minato himself knew of Ei's ability. Ei immediately charged and got that close to Minato. *Minato would not let somoene get that close to him if he was casually reacting to Ei*. Minato literally could only move that kunai inches away from his hand and teleport immediately fia FTG. He got marked on his nose, and Ei obviously knew he had him pressed as he thought he could blitz him to the next kunai if he knew which one Minato would jump too. Minato chose the best counter which was to threaten Bee since he was able to tag him when Bee intercepted his FTG strike. But he didn't know unlike Ei, Bee had anticipated his usage, and aimed his sword behind his back as a premptory defense. Hence the subsequent hype he gave Bee.


that's still opinion man. Naruto waited until Ay was an inch away before he flashed like 50 feet away. And saying Minato could only move his kunai inches, but it just so happened to be in Ay's blindspot where Minato could have killed him was just some lucky coincidence? I don't think so. Even when Bee saved him, Minato was fast enough to mark Bee without anyone even noticing (except probably Bee himself)


> But this is actual speculation. Gai is simple minded and goofy but he isn't dumb. Gai literally fought Kakashi day in and day out so that is direct experience with someone who is super intelligent and had 3 tomoe like most competent adult uchiha ninja. Looking at the feet is needed because you literally cannot match gazes with a sharingan users, and as we saw with kakashi clone vs shouten clone, eye contact can be forced. So looking at the mid section or "lol forehead" is not a good enough counter. Hence why a whole village of peoples banned fighting Uchiha 1v1.


Of course it's speculation. I did say "I imagine". And sure The Sand had that saying, but on the other hand, The Senju clan had no objections with fighting them. Tobirama killed the 2nd strongest Uchiha 1 vs 1. Hashirama killed the strongest Uchiha 1 vs 1. So it's clearly not impossible to beat an Uchiha of similar ability 1 on 1.


> Nardo does leave a light trail when he travels this can be several times in the story including his way to the battlefield, some of his attack in KCM vs the edo's, and I believe also in his raikage fight.


from his cloak. He snatched Boruto off his face without any trail, after image, or anything


> The reason I pointed out Bee's shushin is because it was a long distance shushin. Most of NArdo's feats are short range but fast, while Bee's were comparable distances to to Minato's shushin feats. Base Bee jumped in base and didn't leave a trail or vibrate the rock as Karin had to sense him out, but then in V1 he left a trail, was obviously faster, and broke the plateau with KE. My bet is 100% on V1 Bee beating Minato in physical travel speed.


I again think of the Boruto Shunshin. Hokage Residence to his face wasn't any short distance

and that may be your bet, based on your impression, but it's still opinion. Whereas my opinion is that Minato isn't considered the flat out fastest shinobi solely based on one teleportation technique that others can perform as well


> Nah dude that is too much assuming.
> A.) Ei was literally fuming at Sasuke. Not only was this dude breaking into a Kage meeting as an S class criminal, but Ei was under the asusumption he did major damage and possibly killed Bee. He went into V1 to obviously gain some speed, as that is what V1 does. In no scenario does Sasuke "luckily" dodge his elbow, and casually land a blow on Ei because the latter let him due to pride. Nothing indicates Ei could have went into V2, planted his feet and shushind away after comprehending that Sasuke ducked his elbow. Sasuke was fast enough to land the blow after the counter. In no way does that read as Sasuke not outmaneuvering Ei to the upmost of possibility. His only obstacle was the Ei is durable as fuck, and chidori only went about an inch and a half in.
> 
> 
> You can't compare a long range AOE attack and Madara "choosing" to stand still, to two people running at eachother with attacks and one dodging and landing a strike in CqC, especially when Ei's Neurons and muscles are being amped by Raiton.


that Raiton amplification was why I thought he could have dodged if he was in real danger. It wouldn't be the first time 2 shinobi were charging at each other and one was able to dodge. I mean, Sasuke was able to dodge in this very exchange, when Ay was the fastest shinobi


> Yeah in V2 his hair stands up and it is maximum raiton amping his neurons and muscles. It's what he opened with vs Minato. He brought it out in response to MS/Susanoo protecting Sasuke from his Powerbomb.


Nah, I know that. It was that he needed time to activate it. Maybe it's because of the way it looks, I kinda connected it to like Super Saiyajin in DBZ, where they had no issue activating it while in top speed sprint


In reality though man, I just don't see us agreeing on this topic. There's just no scans that exist that prove Itachi is able to keep up with the man known throughout the shinobi world as the the fastest shinobi ever. If it wasn't for Minato's portrayal as being a once in generations genius as well, I would have thought Itachi could probably come up with a game plan to overcome it, but considering Minato's intelligence as well, I think Itachi has the disadvantage without his Magekyo. You obviously feel the opposite. The reality is there aren't enough manga facts to concretely prove one or the other. And it doesn't seem either of us is having much success swaying the other with our interpretation of what the story has shown


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Namikaze sounds similar to Kamikaze which means suicide, so it's a fitting name for Minato to commit suicide.
> 
> Genjutsu control to suicide perhaps?
> 
> Or perhaps he takes it himself so he can avoid the pain that Itachi will bring him inside genjutsu land.


lol, you got it all wrong man. Minato is a Konoha shinobi. And if he were alive, he'd be Hokage. If Itachi fought him, he'd be the one to kill himself. Literally. For the sake of the village. His Genjutsu for Minato would be like the Happy Gilmore "Happy Place"


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 23, 2016)

ℜai said:


> He was still controlling Kurama.


was he? I'll have to go back and re-read it. I could have sworn Minato already hit him with the contract seal by then


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## Serene Grace (Dec 24, 2016)

That moment where you think Itachi has a lot of stamina/chakra then you forget only one tsukuyomi and Amaterasu had him needing bed rest.

That moment where even the databook disagrees with you by giving him a 2.5 in stamina, yet you say that's fanfic. Though when the databook says yata mirror can block everything, you then decide to agree. Such hypocrisy

That moment where Itachi was planning on dying in that fight, so he was using more chakra than he ever would have used in a battle. And for using Susanoo....dafuq you guys don't know what a fucking aderaline rush is? 

Itachi a lot of stamina? Fuck outta here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> That moment where you think Itachi has a lot of stamina/chakra then you forget only one tsukuyomi and Amaterasu had him needing bed rest.
> 
> That moment where even the databook disagrees with you by giving him a 2.5 in stamina, yet you say that's fanfic. Though when the databook says yata mirror can block everything, you then decide to agree. Such hypocrisy
> 
> ...




Then why did Sasuke run out of chakra before Itachi despite having more?  When Sasuke was completely drained, Itachi still had enough to use Susano for several minutes and used a sealing jutsu. 



So much for "outlasting" Itachi.ck


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## Serene Grace (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Then why did Sasuke run out of chakra before Itachi despite having more?  When Sasuke was completely drained, Itachi still had enough to use Susano for several minutes and used a sealing jutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> So much for "outlasting" Itachi.ck


Not sure what your point is, at this time sasuke was never a huge stamina freak so him "outlasting" sasuke isn't anything special. Sasuke has 3 in stamina while itachi has a 2.5. Minato has a fuckin 5, so going off that, Itachi would get completely outlasted. Nice try though


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Not sure what your point is, at this time sasuke was never a huge stamina freak so him "outlasting" sasuke isn't anything special. Sasuke has 3 in stamina while itachi has a 2.5. Minato has a fuckin 5, so going off that, Itachi would get completely outlasted. Nice try though




That's funny, didn't realise Sasuke got a chakra boost after his fight with Itachi.

Killer Bee probably had more chakra than Minato, but even HE couldn't outlast a noob and injured Sasuke. 

Raikage couldn't outlast either.

Kisame couldn't outlast Gai either despite having more chakra.

The list goes on...


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Then why did Sasuke run out of chakra before Itachi despite having more?  When Sasuke was completely drained, Itachi still had enough to use Susano for several minutes and used a sealing jutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> So much for "outlasting" Itachi.ck


wasn't this fight right after Sasuke barely survived his fight with Deidara? I'd hardly consider him as being 100%


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> wasn't this fight right after Sasuke barely survived his fight with Deidara? I'd hardly consider him as being 100%




I guess Sasuke's fight with Danzo isn't valid either, since he just went through battling the several kage's consecutively before fighting Danzo. 

His battle with Deidara he probably didn't suffer severe damages, so Karin could have healed and restored him up nicely, not to mention Juugo.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I guess Sasuke's fight with Danzo isn't valid either, since he just went through battling the several kage's consecutively before fighting Danzo.
> 
> His battle with Deidara he probably didn't suffer severe damages, so Karin could have healed and restored him up nicely, not to mention Juugo.


I'm not sure what you mean by the Danzo fight? But of course Sasuke wasn't 100% in that fight after fighting the Kage. Hell, Mei, and the Onoki would have killed him if not for Zetsu and Tobi. In that order.

But I'm not sure how you can say he didn't suffer severe damage by Deidara. 

he was definitely in rough shape. He said himself that running Chidori through his body shredded his insides. Not to mention, his stamina was very drained


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## Sapherosth (Dec 24, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by the Danzo fight? But of course Sasuke wasn't 100% in that fight after fighting the Kage. Hell, Mei, and the Onoki would have killed him if not for Zetsu and Tobi. In that order.
> 
> But I'm not sure how you can say he didn't suffer severe damage by Deidara.
> 
> he was definitely in rough shape. He said himself that running Chidori through his body shredded his insides. Not to mention, his stamina was very drained




You think those injuries are far too severe for Karin/Juugo to heal?


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You think those injuries are far too severe for Karin/Juugo to heal?


of course not. They're not injuries severe enough that bed rest alone wouldn't fix. But the story even showed that they were trying to take care of him in a rented room and were rushed out of there due to Naruto's team closing in on them. they wanted to take longer for his recovery but were unable. So I don't believe he was in his peak condition going into his fight with Itachi


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 25, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Bee said no one had ever dodged his V1 lariat besides his brothers. Base Bee has some of the best shushin feats in the manga in base, V1 canonically makes him faster.
> 
> You can react to something many times faster than yourself by moving a shorter distance in the same timeframe. It's the reason why lightning is sub relativistic, but not every lightning timing feat is that level of speed. Moving 1 meter out of the strike AOE will allow you to dodge if your hypersonic for instance.
> 
> ...


V1 Raikage was stopped by Suigetsu, just saying if you want it to be fair, it all has to be listed. As for Killer Bee Sasuke dodged a 3-Tailed Version of Killer Bee, Itachi should be able to replicate his brothers feat with his regular sharingan. Minato's body speed is actually much slower without his enhancements.



The All Unknowing said:


> at the time of that scan, Minato had already separated the Kyubi from Obito though. And he's used Genjutsu on Fu and Torune, who were supposed to be highly trained ANBU. Not to mention he used it on Kurama, leading Minato to think he was actually Madara without him even lying about it
> 
> I don't think he needed to use Genjutsu for Pain. It seemed to me he convinced Nagato after Yahiko's death. But yeah, I had always assumed he could use it while intangible. But it's possible he lost control of Kurama while intangible, his objective was simply the destruction of Konoha, and Kurama was doing that even after Minato separated them. I'm not really sure. But he was able to suck in Fu (I think. It may have been Torune) and place him under Genjutsu while intangible to pass through the archway of that bridge. But I guess it's not stated that he put him under Genjutsu at that time. It just makes the best sense that he would


Yeah, I definitely think he can still use genjutsu while intangible too. He turned intangible several times against the fight with Minato but the genjutsu only lifted off Kurama when Minato broke his seal. I was always wondering, perhaps Obito needs to cast the genjutsu while his eyes are only tangible, it makes sense that way.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 25, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> V1 Raikage was stopped by Suigetsu, just saying if you want it to be fair, it all has to be listed. As for Killer Bee Sasuke dodged a 3-Tailed Version of Killer Bee, Itachi should be able to replicate his brothers feat with his regular sharingan. Minato's body speed is actually much slower without his enhancements.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I definitely think he can still use genjutsu while intangible too. He turned intangible several times against the fight with Minato but the genjutsu only lifted off Kurama when Minato broke his seal. I was always wondering, perhaps Obito needs to cast the genjutsu while his eyes are only tangible, it makes sense that way.


yeah, that would make sense. Kishi has been fairly inconsistent with that kinda thing though. So I have no clue what he would actually explain it as


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## Sapherosth (Dec 25, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> of course not. They're not injuries severe enough that bed rest alone wouldn't fix. But the story even showed that they were trying to take care of him in a rented room and were rushed out of there due to Naruto's team closing in on them. they wanted to take longer for his recovery but were unable. So I don't believe he was in his peak condition going into his fight with Itachi





And you think Itachi was in his peak condition as well? 

In comparison, who was in a worse situation, Itachi or Sasuke?


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