# Kakuzu vs Hebi Sasuke



## Luftwaffles (Sep 23, 2013)

Location: Great Naruto Bridge
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Generic; Akatsuki vs Sharingan
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Kirin and Manda; Oro

Kakuzu starts with his masks released.


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## vagnard (Sep 23, 2013)

Hebi Sasuke is a bad match up for Kakuzu because his chidori lance and chidori needles nullify Kakuzu's doton defense. Hebi Sasuke has plently of long range attacks capable to deal with Kakuzu's masks. Sasuke's minor snakes can keep the masks distracted. 

Hebi Sasuke was a lot faster than FRS Naruto at that point and Naruto managed to evade the tentacles and hit Kakuzu.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 23, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Hebi Sasuke is a bad match up for Kakuzu because his chidori lance and chidori needles nullify Kakuzu's doton defense. Hebi Sasuke has plently of long range attacks capable to deal with Kakuzu's masks. Sasuke's minor snakes can keep the masks distracted.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke was a lot faster than FRS Naruto at that point and Naruto managed to evade the tentacles and hit him.


FRS Naruto never evaded the tentacles I think, he just bunshin feinted.
Sasuke has no knowledge of Raiton:Gian or the Fuuton/Katon combo which has huge AoE.


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## vagnard (Sep 23, 2013)

Waffle said:


> FRS Naruto never evaded the tentacles I think, he just bunshin feinted.
> Sasuke has no knowledge of Raiton:Gian or the Fuuton/Katon combo which has huge AoE.



Naruto managed to hit him with FRS before he could react. 

Even with no knowledge of those attacks Sasuke instantly could use snakes to protect himself from Deidara's bombs and CS2 to survive C2 attacks that have arguably more range and power than the Fuuton Katon combo.


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 23, 2013)

Kakuzu wins.

Hebi sauce has many defense options but his offense doesn't really gain at all.
He wont be able to use tactics or stall or hide in this open terrain.
Sasuke wont outlast kakuzu nor lolblitz him dead.

all of kaks' element jutsu are stronger than sasukes...


imo Kakuzu overpowers sasuke in a firefight; CQC isn't happening


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 23, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Naruto managed to hit him with FRS before he could react.
> 
> Even with no knowledge of those attacks Sasuke instantly could use snakes to protect himself from Deidara's bombs and CS2 to survive C2 attacks that have arguably more range and power than the Fuuton Katon combo.


I don't want to use PnJ the way you're using it in the Ei vs Bee debate with Rocky 
Most of Deidara's are negated with Raiton:Gian or are pushed back with Fuuton:Atsugai.
Kakuzu can continuously nuke  at Sasuke in all directions.


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## Chad (Sep 24, 2013)

I have already posted my argument here before that Kakuzu beats EMS Sasuke (before recent chapter) with extreme difficulty. Hebi Sasuke isn't much of a problem.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2013)

Bogard said:


> I have already posted my argument here before that Kakuzu beats EMS Sasuke (before recent chapter) with extreme difficulty. Hebi Sasuke isn't much of a problem.


...uh what? How the hell does Kakuzu beat pre-chapter 647 EMS Sasuke? He has nothing to get past Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o, much less Complete and Final versions. His Doton Domu is fodder for Sasuke's raiton, his hearts are easily blitzed by Sasuke or Aoba, and Sasuke has multiple speed and ninjutsu advantages over him.

Hebi Sasuke is too much for Kakuzu too. CS2, regeneration, Manda, and the same elemental and speed advantages. Kakuzu is a Mid-Mid Tier Akatsuki, while Hebi Sasuke was able to beat a Mid-High Tier Akatsuki like Deidara.


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## Stermor (Sep 24, 2013)

i alwasy thought it was stupid to consider kakuza's doton domo to be fodder against sasuke.. 

remember kakuza has both futon and raiton aswell.. and he his raiton required kakashi to use 2 raikiri(something sasuke can't do).. pretty much if sasuke is going to try a straight up raiton duel sasuke is losing.. 

and sasuke isn't good enough to sneak up on kakuza like kakashi did... hell i wouldn't say kakashi could do it in a solo matchup..  

just because sasuke has raiton and a means to get through doton domo doesn't mean he is actually capable of getting the proper hit it.... 

the problem is also sasuke is going to have to keep running.. since kakuza's aoe blast are going to be constantly attacking him.. eventually sasuke is going to get hit.. 

also snake summons are roasted pretty quickly.. 

and then we have kakuza fighting the shodaime.. meaning kakuza also has much better reactions(by virtue of beein capable of fighting hashirama)...


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## EnergySage (Sep 24, 2013)

While I think Kakuzu is often underated due to PIS, I also dislike the notion that fighting Hashirama means something. Young Onoki survived Madara.....


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2013)

You might want to Restrict Sasuke's raiton arsenal. Otherwise this is pretty one sided. Sasuke takes this by a long shot.


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## Chad (Sep 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...uh what? How the hell does Kakuzu beat pre-chapter 647 EMS Sasuke? He has nothing to get past Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o, much less Complete and Final versions. His Doton Domu is fodder for Sasuke's raiton, his hearts are easily blitzed by Sasuke or Aoba, and Sasuke has multiple speed and ninjutsu advantages over him.



Susanoo without legs isn't hard to deal with for Kakuzu. As proven that Gaara can pull the user out of the Susanoo, Kakuzu can do the same thing.



Or he can just strike Futon into the vertebrae area of the Susanoo like Danzo did to split the body.

While in Susanoo, Sasuke can't use his Raiton to his advantage as the Susanoo highly slows his movement speed. He can't use his shunshin feats while inside Susanoo. From Deidara's fight, I don't remember the number on top of my head, but the limit as how far chidori shinso can extend is not long enough to counter Kakuzu's long range mode.

And did you seriously just say Aoda speed blitzes Kakuzu?



> Hebi Sasuke is too much for Kakuzu too. CS2, regeneration, Manda, and the same elemental and speed advantages.



The only type of elemental advantage Hebi Sasuke has on Kakuzu is Kirin. But Sasuke cannot create the climate by himself as it required all of his chakra plus with the help of Itachi's Amaterasu burning the area to create the climate for Kirin. 

Without Kirin, Gian > Chidori. Zukoku > Fireballs. Atsugai > his Raiton.

Genjutsu is broken out by any of alive heart.

Speed difference is not too much, Sasuke is only 0.5 faster in the databook from Kakuzu.



> Kakuzu is a Mid-Mid Tier Akatsuki, while Hebi Sasuke was able to beat a Mid-High Tier Akatsuki like Deidara.



What is a *mid-mid* tier?

Are you trying to say that Deidara > Kakuzu? Because that is definitely not true.


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## Enki (Sep 24, 2013)

Kakuzu should take this with mid difficulty. His Domo is useless in this fight due to the Raiton, but his Gian and his Atsugai will do the job againts the Chidori variants. Kakuzu was keeping up in CQC with Kakashi (4.5 in speed like Hebi Sasuke), so Sauce isn't speedblitzing with his "godlike" suushin here. He could *possibly* take this with full intel and no restrictions, but i don't see him pulling a win at all in this matchup.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...uh what? How the hell does Kakuzu beat pre-chapter 647 EMS Sasuke? He has nothing to get past Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o, much less Complete and Final versions. His Doton Domu is fodder for Sasuke's raiton, his hearts are easily blitzed by Sasuke or Aoba, and Sasuke has multiple speed and ninjutsu advantages over him.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is too much for Kakuzu too. CS2, regeneration, Manda, and the same elemental and speed advantages. Kakuzu is a Mid-Mid Tier Akatsuki, while Hebi Sasuke was able to beat a Mid-High Tier Akatsuki like Deidara.


You should leave your tier interpretations out of this.

EMS Sasuke is superior to Kakuzu(duh) but Kakuzu is above Hebi Sasuke.
You may consider Hebi Sasuke Kakuzu's superior, but it took Kakashi with Ino-Shika-Cho and having most of his hearts destroyed for a FRS Naruto to take him out.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You might want to Restrict Sasuke's raiton arsenal. Otherwise this is pretty one sided. Sasuke takes this by a long shot.


Fuuton:Atsugai negates Sasuke's Raiton arsenal, coupled with the fact that Kakuzu can basically nuke the guy with Fuuton/Katon continuously.


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## Stermor (Sep 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You might want to Restrict Sasuke's raiton arsenal. Otherwise this is pretty one sided. Sasuke takes this by a long shot.



why?? for what reason would you think kakuza doesn't fight sasuke raiton with his superior raiton or his futon??? 

sasuke having raiton means he has a shot.. not that he is garanteed to win.... while sasuke has very little ways of stopping kakuza's blasts...


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Fuuton:Atsugai negates Sasuke's Raiton arsenal, coupled with the fact that Kakuzu can basically nuke the guy with Fuuton/Katon continuously.



 Leaving himself very vulnerable to a Raiton?

 CS2 Sasuke is in every way superior to Kakashi. He should be able to dodge that.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Leaving himself very vulnerable to a Raiton?
> 
> CS2 Sasuke is in every way superior to Kakashi. He should be able to dodge that.



It doesn't matter if he is, Sasuke has no way of dealing with multiple AoE attacks - he can dodge but he can't tank the attack; Kakashi only dealt with _one_ Katon/Fuuton combo before he got his ass saved by Nardo and Yamato. Unless you can show me he has a way of killing Kakuzu five times...hell show me how he can get in CQC against Kakuzu 

There's a reason why Kakuzu had 2 hearts taken early out by plot(well Kakashi's brilliance), a Jounin of Kakashi's pedigree, Ino-Shika-Cho to _defend_ against Kakuzu when he went all out, and having _ALL_ but one of his hearts killed so that Naruto could land that FRS. And plot shield of course.


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

CS2 Sasuke runs through the Katon/Fuuton combo and chops Kakuzu into tiny pieces with his CS enhanced Chidori Eisou.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 24, 2013)

Hashirama and Tobirama

 You mean this kind of AoE which Sasuke has practically dodged against Deidara?


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> CS2 Sasuke runs through the Katon/Fuuton combo and chops Kakuzu into tiny pieces with his CS enhanced Chidori Eisou.


You have nothing to back up that statement. C2 is an explosive not an enhanced Katon technique. Hell, Kakuzu can push him back with Fuuton and then slice him with Gian.



NarutoX28 said:


> Hashirama and Tobirama
> 
> You mean this kind of AoE which Sasuke has practically dodged against Deidara?


If I recall correctly he tanked one. And that was it. You can't compare to different styles; one uses explosives with AoE while the other uses continuous ninjutsu with AoE .


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> You have nothing to back up that statement. C2 is an explosive not an enhanced Katon technique. Hell, Kakuzu can push him back with Fuuton and then slice him with Gian.



The power behind Deidara's C2 is far more concentrated than in Kakuzu's Giant Katon. Tanking it is a lot more impressive. We didn't even see that huge Katon destroying anything significant.

Sasuke easily dodges Gian and Fuuton with his base speed alone.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 24, 2013)

^ No, he dodged a few from Deidara which were bigger explosions. 

 As for Kakuzu, well actually, Kakashi dodged his AoE until Kakuzu grabbed him. Hebi Sasuke has more versatility with his defenses and can even do what Kakuzu just did and grab him with a few snakes.

 Not directed at you Saikyou

 You just ninja'd me


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## Krippy (Sep 24, 2013)

Even with the restrictions Sasuke wins with mid diff at worst.


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## Ennoia (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> CS2 Sasuke runs through the Katon/Fuuton combo and chops Kakuzu into tiny pieces with his CS enhanced Chidori Eisou.



Sasuke's wing was burned when he took a direct Fireball from Itachi which is C rank, if he runs into a combo of a B rank Katon and Fuuton which Kakashi said Suiton was useless against he will be incinerated.

My thoughts however is Kakuzu stomps.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ No, he dodged a few from Deidara which were bigger explosions.
> 
> As for Kakuzu, well actually, Kakashi dodged his AoE until Kakuzu grabbed him. Hebi Sasuke has more versatility with his defenses and can even do what Kakuzu just did and grab him with a few snakes.
> 
> ...


Read the manga, he only tanked one C2 and got his wing clipped off x, Kakuzu split his forces up 
C3 and C4 were tanked by snakes, which are non-factor here.

He was fighting Kakashi and the Konoha Trio, Kakashi by himself would NOT be able to dodge if all those attacks were focused solely on him.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

> The power behind Deidara's C2 is far more concentrated than in Kakuzu's Giant Katon. Tanking it is a lot more impressive. We didn't even see that huge Katon destroying anything significant.
> 
> Sasuke easily dodges Gian and Fuuton with his base speed alone.





Ennoia said:


> Sasuke's wing was burned when he took a direct Fireball from Itachi which is C rank, if he runs into a combo of a B rank Katon and Fuuton which Kakashi said Suiton was useless against he will be incinerated.
> 
> My thoughts however is Kakuzu stomps.


Fucking this. 
Thanks Ennoia, I had forgotten about that.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

I'll let the poll speak for itself. I have no need to defend my case when various users support my stance. I've already proven my points.


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## Stermor (Sep 24, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Leaving himself very vulnerable to a Raiton?
> 
> CS2 Sasuke is in every way superior to Kakashi. He should be able to dodge that.



hahaha noooo..  kakashi is superior in reactions/speed.. skill.. jutsu's power, arsenal.. and backup... 

kakashi is pretty much superior to sasuke in everything...


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

I find it funny people think that Akatsuki members can blitz each other when it's never been implied in the manga and never will be.


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## Krippy (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> EMS Sasuke is superior to Kakuzu(duh) but Kakuzu is above Hebi Sasuke.
> You may consider Hebi Sasuke Kakuzu's superior, but it took Kakashi with Ino-Shika-Cho and having most of his hearts destroyed for a FRS Naruto to take him out.



>completely ignores the fact that Kakazu had the support of Hidan who Kakashi was unable to outright kill due to having to protect Team 10 while avoiding Kakazu's masks

Hebi Sasuke is comfortably above Kakazu and is a bit stronger than Kakashi as well

the fact that you restricted the a large chunk of Sasuke's offense while leaving Kakazu unrestricted should tell you something


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Sasuke's wing was burned when he took a direct Fireball from Itachi which is C rank, if he runs into a combo of a B rank Katon and Fuuton which Kakashi said Suiton was useless against he will be incinerated.


"Little burns like this won't stop me." Just because Kakuzu's Katon is bigger than Itachi's it does not mean it is more effective on Sasuke. Its not like Sasuke is taking the whole katon, is it? 

Even though the technique is C-rank doesn't mean the power is the same on every user. Minato's, Jiraiya's and Naruto's Rasengans are all A-rank though Minato's Rasengan is stronger than Jiraiya's or Naruto's.

The flames in Itachi's Katon could very well be more intense than in Kakuzu's. After all his flames managed to cause pain to Bee using Hachibi's flesh. With Itachi being far more skilled shinobi than Kakuzu this is very well possible.




> My thoughts however is Kakuzu stomps.



Kakuzu is not stomping a superior shinobi.


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> the fact that you restricted the a large chunk of Sasuke's *offense* while leaving Kakazu unrestricted should tell you something



what? Yamata Orochi-Shin Kusanagi_Orochimaru & Manda  are a large part of Hebi sasukes arsenal?

Kirin is something more concrete, rather than a situational plot device & a hyped-up display of ''skill power level'' ??

Seems more like plot relevance/armor has been restricted, rather than his ''strenght''  imo...


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> >completely ignores the fact that Kakazu had the support of Hidan who Kakashi was unable to outright kill due to having to protect Team 10 while avoiding Kakazu's masks.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is comfortably above Kakazu and is a bit stronger than Kakashi as well
> 
> the fact that you restricted the a large chunk of Sasuke's offense while leaving Kakazu unrestricted should tell you something


I'm in my right to make a match as balanced as possible. Manda by himself isn't an everyday part of Sasuke's arsenal and Kirin is an instant-kill move. I try to make my threads balanced.

Hebi Sasuke is a bit stronger than Zombie Duo Arc Kakashi, yes. I never said he wasn't.

>Completely ignores the fact that Hidan kills one of his hearts mistakenly.
>Completely ignores the fact that Kakashi used Silent Killing and a surprise attack to kill Kakuzu's Suiton heart, something that Sasuke won't have the luxury of pulling off due to not having Kakashi's skillset.
>Completely ignores the fact that Kakuzu started using his biggest attacks once Hidan left.
>Completely ignores the fact that Kakuzu will be focusing his entire arsenal on Sasuke, not splitting them up like he did vs the Konoha team. Granted Kakashi had to protect the kids, but Kakuzu was also gimped and you can't deny this. He had his heart taken out by 2 sneak attacks and he had to split up his masks.



> "Little burns like this won't stop me." Just because Kakuzu's Katon is bigger than Itachi's it does not mean it is more effective on Sasuke. Its not like Sasuke is taking the whole katon, is it?
> 
> Even though the technique is C-rank doesn't mean the power is the same on every user. Minato's, Jiraiya's and Naruto's Rasengans are all A-rank though Minato's Rasengan is stronger than Jiraiya's or Naruto's.
> 
> The flames in Itachi's Katon could very well be more intense than in Kakuzu's. After all his flames managed to cause pain to Bee using Hachibi's flesh. With Itachi being far more skilled shinobi than Kakuzu this is very well possible.


Read your post again and see how you contradict yourself many times over


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

No high tiers coming to mind who would lose to Manda.

Kakuzu told the bounty guy that the reason why Hidan is his partner is because no matter what he could not kill him. Thus Hidan's absence should not be required to use the big AoEs.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> No high tiers coming to mind who would lose to Manda.
> 
> Kakuzu told the bounty guy that the reason why Hidan is his partner is because no matter what he could not kill him. Thus Hidan's absence should not be required to use the big AoEs.


I'll rephrase it a bit, Manda is not in this match. 

It's canon that Kakuzu used Katon/Fuuton when Hidan left. It's also canon Kakuzu had to split up his masks when faced with multiple opponents, in this match Sasuke won't have that luxury.

Don't bother to keep on debating. We can agree to disagree.


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## Krippy (Sep 24, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> what? Yamata Orochi-Shin Kusanagi_Orochimaru & Manda  are a large part of Hebi sasukes arsenal?



Offensively, yes.



> Kirin is something more concrete, rather than a situational plot device & a hyped-up display of ''skill power level'' ??
> 
> Seems more like plot relevance/armor has been restricted, rather than his ''strenght''  imo...



Nah, it's his strength. Even with restrictions, Kakuzu still loses here.



Waffle said:


> I'm in my right to make a match as balanced as possible. Manda by himself isn't an everyday part of Sasuke's arsenal and Kirin is an instant-kill move. I try to make my threads balanced.



Never said anything different. In the post I quoted you said (or at least implied) Hebi Sasuke is weaker than Kakazu, which is incorrect.



> Hebi Sasuke is a bit stronger than Zombie Duo Arc Kakashi, yes. I never said he wasn't.



Kakashi is above Kakazu though, and Team 10 held him back quite a bit.



> >Completely ignores the fact that Hidan kills one of his hearts mistakenly.



If you are implying that Hidan was more of a liability than an asset, then you're wrong.



> >Completely ignores the fact that Kakashi used Silent Killing and a surprise attack to kill Kakuzu's Suiton heart, something that Sasuke won't have the luxury of pulling off due to not having Kakashi's skillset.



Shunshin and Chidori? Sasuke has that for days. His Raiton with bypass his Domu defense. Masks will get taken out with Chidori eiso



> >Completely ignores the fact that Kakuzu started using his biggest attacks once Hidan left.



Don't see how this is relevant but okay.



> >Completely ignores the fact that Kakuzu will be focusing his entire arsenal on Sasuke, not splitting them up like he did vs the Konoha team. Granted Kakashi had to protect the kids, but Kakuzu was also gimped and you can't deny this. He had his heart taken out by 2 sneak attacks and he had to split up his masks.



Sasuke can dodge anything he can throw at him with his base speed, let alone the boost from his Juin. Throw in Genjutsu and summons and this is a wrap.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Offensively, yes.
> 
> Nah, it's his strength. Even with restrictions, Kakuzu still loses here.
> 
> ...


Nope, Sasuke had to genjutsu Manda and Oro came out because he had attached a seal to Sasuke. If anything, Sasuke is Oro's strength.

Hebi Sasuke unrestricted with Karin, yes.

Never was, I'm just showing you the facts.

That incarnation of Kakashi isn't superior to Kakuzu. Kakuzu had Kakashi in his death bed, Hidan killed one of his hearts which is why Kakuzu fell down to the ground.

Lel. Kakuzu also uses Shunshin. And Hebi Sasuke will never be able to engage in CQC with Kakuzu with continuos AoE spam.

If I recall correctly, Deidara managed to react to Sasuke just fine. Both are members of the Akatsuki and are top-tier, your assumption of "My Hebi Sauce blitzes Kakuzu with Chidori Eiso" is comical.

Kakuzu can counter anything Sasuke throws at him; summons and Genjutsu are non-factor when the man your facing is nuking the hell out of you


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Fuuton:Atsugai negates Sasuke's Raiton arsenal, coupled with the fact that Kakuzu can basically nuke the guy with Fuuton/Katon continuously.



No it doesn't.

Hebi Sasuke is faster than all the people Kakuzu fought, he casually dodges it, or tanks it with CS2 wings.


Stermor said:


> why?? for what reason would you think kakuza doesn't fight sasuke raiton with his superior raiton or his futon???
> 
> sasuke having raiton means he has a shot.. not that he is garanteed to win.... while sasuke has very little ways of stopping kakuza's blasts...


Sasuke's raiton arsenal makes Kakuzu's greatest defense, Domu, null. As well as his tentacles(which kakashi chopped off with raikiri).

Blossoming Chidori lance has a chance to 1shot Kakuzu if Kakuzu binds with his masks.


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## Ninja Art (Sep 24, 2013)

Stermor said:


> hahaha noooo..  kakashi is superior in reactions/speed.. skill.. jutsu's power, arsenal.. and backup...
> 
> *kakashi is pretty much superior to sasuke in everything*...



Kakashi is superior to Sasuke in everything in your wet dreams


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is faster than all the people Kakuzu fought, he casually dodges it, or tanks it with CS2 wings.


Umm...yes it does.

Burden of proof falls on you. Lel, Kakuzu can use his Katon/Fuuton combo more than once. Something Sasuke won't have moves to keep on continously dodging, if Deidara could tag him and clip his wing with a C2, there is no doubt in my mind Kakuzu can't do the same.


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## Ninja Art (Sep 24, 2013)

Stermor said:


> hahaha noooo..  kakashi is superior in reactions/speed.. skill.. jutsu's power, arsenal.. and backup...
> 
> kakashi is pretty much superior to sasuke in everything...





Waffle said:


> Umm...yes it does.
> 
> Burden of proof falls on you. Lel, Kakuzu can use his Katon/Fuuton combo more than once. Something Sasuke won't have moves to keep on continously dodging, if Deidara could tag him and clip his wing with a C2, there is no doubt in my mind Kakuzu can't do the same.



Sasuke has already shown to tank a massive Katon with his C2 wings...there is no need to dodge all of Kakuzu's attacks..

"Little burns like this won't stop me."


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

If you call that massive, I think you haven't seen Kakuzu's Katon/Fuuton.


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> It's canon that Kakuzu used Katon/Fuuton when Hidan left. It's also canon Kakuzu had to split up his masks when faced with multiple opponents, in this match Sasuke won't have that luxury.



Sasuke doesn't need that luxury. The masks are not hitting him and that Katon/Fuuton combo is far from killing Sasuke.  

And why would Kakuzu immediately start spamming his Elemental nukes?


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Sasuke doesn't need that luxury. The masks are not hitting him and that Katon/Fuuton combo is far from killing Sasuke.
> 
> And why would Kakuzu immediately start spamming his Elemental nukes?


The masks AoE is hitting him and yes multiple Katon/Fuuton combos will kill him. Atsugai will push him back, and Gian can pierce him. Kakuzu is above Hebi Sasuke anyway you paint it.

Because he can?


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

Waffle said:


> The masks AoE is hitting him and yes multiple Katon/Fuuton combos will kill him. Atsugai will push him back, and Gian can pierce him. Kakuzu is above Hebi Sasuke anyway you paint it.


Kakuzu might be able to pull off a single Katon/Fuuton but that's it. You know it takes Sasuke only a few seconds to close that distance in between them? And nothing suggests that Kakuzu would fire his most powerful Ninjutsu immediately. Also you wanna give me some panels that say that the masks are faster than Sasuke?



> Because he can?



Why didn't Killer Bee immediately started to spam Bijuudamas at Minato? Pretty sure he could've. Why didn't Jiraiya enter Sage Mode before fighting Pain? Pretty sure he could've. The list keeps on going. Kakuzu lacks the knowledge to go all out on Sasuke at the beginning. Sasuke is above Kakuzu anyway you paint it.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Kakuzu might be able to pull off a single Katon/Fuuton but that's it. You know it takes Sasuke only a few seconds to close that distance in between them? And nothing suggests that Kakuzu would fire his most powerful Ninjutsu immediately. Also you wanna give me some panels that say that the masks are faster than Sasuke?
> 
> 
> 
> Why didn't Killer Bee immediately started to spam Bijuudamas at Minato? Pretty sure he could've. Why didn't Jiraiya enter Sage Mode before fighting Pain? Pretty sure he could've. The list keeps on going. Kakuzu lacks the knowledge to go all out on Sasuke at the beginning. Sasuke is above Kakuzu anyway you paint it.


I never said his masks his faster, learn how to read and not take words out of context. Kakuzu can also close the gap and nuke Sasuke as well, and nothing suggests kakuzu won't shoort his most powerful Ninjutsu if his masks aren't split.

Apples and oranges.
1) You don't know  if Killer Bee had mastered Hachibi to the same extent he had in the Sasuke v Killer Bee
2) He didn't have knowledge and he was only there to gather intel on them.

You can't make an logical argument so you fall back on loose assumptions. I'm done here.


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## Ghost (Sep 24, 2013)

How does one nuke someone next to him without hurting himself? Pretty sure the masks need to have greater attacking/movement speed than Sasuke in order to hit him. If you've read this manga, you should know that characters tend to save their most powerful attacks last. So yeah, everything suggests that.

Not really.
1) Killer Bee was capable of partial transformation so he could transform to Hachibi.
2) You think Jiraiya went to gather intel on the leader of Akatsuki without thinking he most likely won't get out there without a fight? Not important anyways since there are tons of other examples but I'm not gonna start reading the manga for you.


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## Chad (Sep 24, 2013)

Do people seriously underestimate Kakuzu to the point where he's only on the level of Hebi Sasuke? lol


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2013)

Bogard said:


> Do people seriously underestimate Kakuzu to the point where he's only on the level of Hebi Sasuke? lol


From his feats, he's below that. He's no where near at the level of MS Sasuke, much less EMS Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke was able to defeat a stronger member of Akatsuki after all, has superior speed and ninjutsu over Kakuzu, and can predict each movement that Kakuzu makes. And this isn't even going over the genjutsu factor or boss summons like Manda which are available to Sasuke.


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## Ennoia (Sep 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> "Little burns like this won't stop me."


You can quite obviously see that his wing is burnt and he is bleeding regardless of his statement of him acting tough, if you are actually using that statement to support yourself you are reaching.


> Just because Kakuzu's Katon is bigger than Itachi's it does not mean it is more effective on Sasuke. Its not like Sasuke is taking the whole katon, is it?


Itachi's Katon was overpowered by Sasuke's and Sasuke has not once been shown as so good with Katon that he is far beyond the likes of anyone else and by extension Itachi at that point was not either. We have only seen jutsu become stronger with the input of chakra and Itachi does not have the stamina to significantly increase the heat/size of his Katon as heat/damage and size are relative as shown with every other jutsu in the manga. In essence you have no proof that Itachi's C rank Katon was stronger than Kakuzu's B rank to assert that Itachi's might be stronger in any sense. The rule of thumb says that higher ranked jutsu are more dangerous as they generally require more chakra and more skill to execute so until we see Itachi pulling off Katons like Madara I dont think you have a point here.

And yes, you said Sasuke runs right into the combo so he would be taking the whole Katon, and the manga says he would be incinerated.



> Even though the technique is C-rank doesn't mean the power is the same on every user. Minato's, Jiraiya's and Naruto's Rasengans are all A-rank though Minato's Rasengan is stronger than Jiraiya's or Naruto's.


No proof what so ever that Minato's is stronger. Naruto with an incomplete Rasengan nearly killed Kabuto after throwing him back many meters. Rasengan is not a jutsu that can be made stronger unless more chakra is put into it which makes it larger, a standard Rasengan is the same as any other Rasengan the same way a standard fireball is the same as any other fireball.



> The flames in Itachi's Katon could very well be more intense than in Kakuzu's. After all his flames managed to cause pain to Bee using Hachibi's flesh. With Itachi being far more skilled shinobi than Kakuzu this is very well possible.


We have only seen B take one Katon so saying Itachi hurt him with a Katon is irrelevant. There is nothing to suggest that Itachi's C rank Katon is stronger than Kakuzu's B rank especially after it was overpowered by Sasuke's Katon.



> Kakuzu is not stomping a superior shinobi.


Your entire argument hinges on the fact that Sasuke is superior to Kakashi which is in and of itself flawed not only because they have different skill sets but also because I find that observation to be flat out wrong. Then you state that Sasuke is rushing through a Katon that Suiton could not put out without dying. But notice I only addressed the part that could be outright proven in the manga (Sasuke running through the Katon), because I dont intend on trying to change your opinion with a drawn out debate.

Point is, you have no evidence that Sasuke is running through the Katon/Fuuton when he was burned by Itachi's C rank Katon.


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## Chad (Sep 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> From his feats, he's below that. He's no where near at the level of MS Sasuke, much less EMS Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke was able to defeat a stronger member of Akatsuki after all, has superior speed and ninjutsu over Kakuzu, and can predict each movement that Kakuzu makes. And this isn't even going over the genjutsu factor or boss summons like Manda which are available to Sasuke.



So your argument is ABC logic? If anything, your ABC logic is false. Kakuzu lost to a team consisting of Naruto, Yamato, Kakashi, Ino, Chouji and Shikamaru. With your logic, you must also think that Hebi Sasuke can also overwhelm this team. Also, you have to remember that Kakuzu losing was full of PIS/CIS.

Since when is Deidara stronger than Kakuzu? Kakuzu's wide aoe raiton negates all possibilities of clay. He defeats Deidara easier than Sasuke did. I may be a new member here, but I've heard you have rusty opinions in Narutoverses power levels. It's also kinda odd that in this thread, you argue with feats. But when it comes to Jiraiya and Itachi... you argue with portrayals. So if you want to argue by portrayals, then Kakuzu is portrayed far superior than Hebi Sasuke.

Superior speed? Sure, by a 0.5 margin. Does that mean Sasuke is massively faster than Kakuzu? No. Sasuke isn't blitzing every single heart. If Kakuzu's main body dies from a chidori blitz, then it would leave Sasuke open for a majority of attacks while 1 heart revives Kakuzu.

Superior ninjutsu? No. Kakuzu's area of effect is much larger than Sasuke's in both Katon and Raiton. Zukoku alone is far superior than any one of Sasuke's katon, and that is without the futon combination. Sasuke's casual raiton, if anything is inferior to Kakuzu's Gian. See . Kirin is his trump card, but cannot be used in a solo battle as he does not have enough fire power to create the Kirin climate. Sasuke needed the help of Itachi's Amaterasu in order to form Kirin.

Let's see, how Kakuzu counters MS Sasuke. I've already provided scans on how Kakuzu can pull Sasuke out of the Susanoo body. Danzo's inferior Futon was able to split Susanoo's spine. Domu can tank arrow variations, it's as tough or  than the Kongonyoi. Or it will simply bypass his intangible thread body leaving Kakuzu unharmed. The first layer of Kakuzu's threads can be shedded off to take away Amaterasu flames. Genjutsu can be broken out of by . Sasuke doesn't even have feats of putting multiple targets under 1 genjutsu. So as long as there is a heart still alive, it can break Kakuzu's main body out of genjutsu. Not to mention that Kakuzu has a major range and flight advantage over MS Sasuke.

Bring me legitimate evidence to counter my argument, no power scaling. Just because Kakuzu lost to a PIS/CIS Base Naruto does not  mean Hebi Sasuke can do the same..


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> . Hebi Sasuke was able to defeat a stronger member of Akatsuki after all,


 No, no, Deidara is in the exact same class as kakuzu & so is Sasuke(hebi)



> has superior speed and ninjutsu over Kakuzu


 no, Sasuke has a greater variety & kkg but it approximates evenly to kakuzus kinjutsu & raw power.



> and can predict each movement that Kakuzu makes.


yes, sharingan can see the future when the plot demands it, other times the eye waits until danger has already enveloped its wielder before lol _Houdini   





> And this isn't even going over the genjutsu factor or boss summons like Manda which are available to Sasuke.


Both jiongo & the battledome hypothetical onus negates the genjutsu factor & plot theatrics each respectively.

Manda is the only boss; the other snakes are jutsu-option fodder...& mandas indifference makes him the same as the latter.


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## Enki (Sep 25, 2013)

Bogard said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pretty much agreed Boggy, the Kakuzu underrating here is astounding. /thread


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## Stermor (Sep 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is faster than all the people Kakuzu fought, he casually dodges it, or tanks it with CS2 wings.
> 
> ...



wow... first of all kakashi is faster by feats by a decent margin... 

seconds of all kakashi is much more skilled by feats. 

and sasuke doesn't tank raiton gain.. remember it took 2 raikiri's to defend against it.. a rasengan went through cs2 wing.. a raikiri is superior to that.. then there is the fact kakashi needed 2 of them.. sasuke can't handle that.. 

now lets not even talk about the katon futon combi.. 

and are you seriously suggesting kakuza is incapable of just attacking back?? chidori lance does jack when it meets a atsugai.. 

seriously.. it seems like people in this thread are considering kakuza a statue or something.. just thinking he will stand there while sasuke is attacks him or somthing.. idiotic.....


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## Alita (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...uh what? How the hell does Kakuzu beat pre-chapter 647 EMS Sasuke? He has nothing to get past Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o, much less Complete and Final versions. His Doton Domu is fodder for Sasuke's raiton, his hearts are easily blitzed by Sasuke or Aoba, and Sasuke has multiple speed and ninjutsu advantages over him.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is too much for Kakuzu too. CS2, regeneration, Manda, and the same elemental and speed advantages. Kakuzu is a Mid-Mid Tier Akatsuki, while Hebi Sasuke was able to beat a Mid-High Tier Akatsuki like Deidara.


Kakuzu being a mid mid tier akatsuki member is your opinion not fact. Amongist the original akatsuki members I only consider him weaker than obito, nagato, itachi, and kisame. He can beat anyone else one on one. Also I still don't think sasuke's susano can tank a full power wind + fire elemental combo attack from kakuzu either.

Agianst hebi sasuke kakuzu should win with mid difficulty at most. Genjutsu won't work on kakuzu thanks to his hearts which can snap him out of it and his attacks have more than enough range and firepower to easily wipe sasuke out.


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## Alita (Sep 25, 2013)

EnergySage said:


> While I think Kakuzu is often underated due to PIS, I also dislike the notion that fighting Hashirama means something. Young Onoki survived Madara.....


Considering hashirama going by OBD calcs is a massively hypersonic+ island+ buster with his wood and budda having similar durability it DOES mean something. Seeing how hebi sasuke is shit in comparison to that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Umm...yes it does.
> 
> Burden of proof falls on you. Lel, Kakuzu can use his Katon/Fuuton combo more than once. Something Sasuke won't have moves to keep on continously dodging, if Deidara could tag him and clip his wing with a C2, there is no doubt in my mind Kakuzu can't do the same.



What proof ? 

Deidara's missiles are guided bombs and they are very fast and have a much bigger blast radious. Deidara in general is a faster dude than Kakuzu as well.

Kakuzu's elementals were casually reacted by Shikamaru & Co, and Kakashi dodged not just Kakuzu but a combination from Kakuzu and Hidan. And Kakashi is slower than CS Sasuke.

So no, the Fuuton doesn't pose any real threat to Sasuke given his speed and durability.
Although Sasuke Raiton variations are all very lethal against Kakuzu.



Stermor said:


> wow... first of all kakashi is faster by feats by a decent margin...



No he isn't. Stopped reading here.


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## trance (Sep 26, 2013)

Been done. Kakuzu wins high difficulty.


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## Cord (Sep 26, 2013)

I’m inclined to think that Sasuke will end up as the victor in this match despite the restrictions placed on Kirin and Manda. He's not going to need the latter here anyway given that he still has an access to several snake summons. He would still be able to utilize them as meat shields and are expected to suffice, given that none of Kakuzu’s attacks is comparable to the power and magnitude of Deidara’s C0 to require the great snake’s protection to begin with.

I also don’t believe that Kakuzu’s AoE and constant elemental spam is enough to justify him beating Sasuke here, simply because they counter each other.


Katon: Zukokku and Fūton: Atsugai=/< Sasuke’s wide array of powerful Katons. He's got the elemental advantage.
Raiton: Gian and Jiongu =/< Sasuke’s own Raiton variants. Especially Chidori Nagashi which is designed to negate attacks like Jiongu

But while Sasuke could attack and maintain his defenses, with the ability to oral rebirth through any damage acquired from his opponent’s attacks or just simply use his _juin_ wings as sacrificial appendages to circumvent those damages (like he did from C2 and Amaterasu)— Kakuzu couldn’t.

Number advantage doesn’t mean anything if your opponent trumps over your arsenal anytime of the day and can even mount any form of defense if need be. Kakuzu can only rely on pure offense which unfortunately for him, his opponent’s got a variety of answers to. His problem starts once Sasuke already begins capitalizing and focusing on his counteroffensive maneuvers, eliminating his masks one by one.

Having formidable reflexes, speed and firepower that are further enhanced with the Sharingan and amplified by the _Ten no Juin_, respectively— should allow him to achieve that feat.


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## Ersa (Sep 26, 2013)

CS2 Sasuke is a good deal faster than Immortals Arc Kakashi, I view base Sasuke as his equal in that regard although going off feats Sasuke has superior Shunshin. As for the match-up the fact you had to restrict Sasuke's boss summon and his strongest technique goes to show the difference between the two contestants. Even so Sasuke still has the tools to win, albeit it's more difficult.

Snake meat-shields, CS2 and Sharingan pre-cognition will allow him to dodge and even weather a few of Kakuzu's large-scale elemental attacks. He can counter the Futon techniques with his Katon, he can cancel out Raiton with his won Raiton. If Kakuzu does manage to land his fair share of attacks on Sasuke then Oral Rebirth is an option. From there, it's just a matter of Sasuke using his superior speed to blindside and eliminate each and every other of the hearts.

Hebi Sasuke high difficulty.

With Manda as a distraction and Kirin he could take this low-mid difficulty.


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## Seiji (Sep 27, 2013)

Sauce activates CS, tanks everything Kakuzu gives him 'n runs a chidori eiso through dem masks. Sauce wins with mid to high difficulty.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 30, 2013)

*Poll is locked.

Kakuzu wins.*


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## The World (Oct 1, 2013)

Based Kakuzu mauls him

Continuous barrage of fused double or triple masks destroy the Sauce

He's probably resistant to Sasuke's inferior genjutsu as well


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## The World (Oct 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What proof ?
> 
> Deidara's missiles are guided bombs and they are very fast and have a much bigger blast radious. Deidara in general is a faster dude than Kakuzu as well.
> 
> ...



Deidara was caught off guard by Sai 

And he was almost blitzed by Sauce if not for Tobi

Kakuzu blitzed Kakashi + Chouji + Ino 

He's only fast when riding his creations, otherwise his destructive capacity heavily outweighs his other stats



Krippy said:


> >completely ignores the fact that Kakazu had the support of Hidan who Kakashi was unable to outright kill due to having to protect Team 10 while avoiding Kakazu's masks
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is comfortably above Kakazu and is a bit stronger than Kakashi as well
> 
> the fact that you restricted the a large chunk of Sasuke's offense while leaving Kakazu unrestricted should tell you something



Krippy why u so turrible?


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## johnsuwey (Oct 1, 2013)

The World said:


> Deidara was caught off guard by Sai
> 
> And he was almost blitzed by Sauce if not for Tobi
> 
> ...




I agree with this.
Kakuzu is highly underestimated, and kage tier.

Extremely powerful ninjutsu of ever element
Taijutsu stronger than Kakashi w/ sharingan.
Mid-long range attacks
5 hearts - So you have to kill him 5 times, or hit him with something insanely powerful like FRS.
Massive amounts of experience


Kakuzu wins
GG!


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