# Orochimaru vs Nagato



## Matty (Aug 2, 2015)

Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters

Scenario 1: ET, CT restricted
Scenario 2: No Restrictions

Who takes it?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

1: Nagato stomps.
2: Nagato slaughters before Orochimaru can use ET.


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## Matty (Aug 2, 2015)

I kind of thought Nagato stomps in both scenarios as well. I am confused though... I have been seeing a lot lately about people saying Oro is God tier. So I don't see what the deal is. I'm probably just missing something


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 2, 2015)

That's probably because he can summon the God of Shinobi, 2 FTG Users (one High Kage, another low God tier), and another low-kage- and they're all immortal. 

No knowledge means Nagato wins, but it's only because his soul rip is perfect against Orochimaru's regeneration, and Orochimaru is naturally arrogant. 

If Orochimaru had knowledge, he'd immediately burrow/leech into the ground, pop out elsewhere then he'd summon Edo Minato, Tobirama & Hiruzen- who together with Orochimaru (and his 6+ Boss Snake Army) would stomp the shit out of Nagato.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's probably because he can summon the God of Shinobi, 2 FTG Users (one High Kage, another low God tier), and another low-kage- and they're all immortal.
> 
> No knowledge means Nagato wins, but it's only because his soul rip is perfect against Orochimaru's regeneration, and Orochimaru is naturally arrogant.
> 
> If Orochimaru had knowledge, he'd immediately burrow/leech into the ground, pop out elsewhere then he'd summon Edo Minato, Tobirama & Hiruzen- who together with Orochimaru (and his 6+ Boss Snake Army) would stomp the shit out of Nagato.



Dont you think that Orochimaru wont have reactions good enough to burrow/leech into the ground before Nagato can use Deva Path's power?


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## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2015)

Nagato takes both 
Fairly obvious really


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Dont you think that Orochimaru wont have reactions good enough to burrow/leech into the ground before Nagato can use Deva Path's power?


With knowledge I just said he would do that. 

Without knowledge he'll get soul ripped because he doesn't know Nagato can do that in-close, and Orochimaru has no reason to avoid close encounters as he's built for that type of fight.


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## LeBoyka (Aug 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Nagato takes both
> Fairly obvious really



Not really. 

Scenario 2 would go to Oro due to his ability to simply use Edo Tensei to summon all four hokage, along with his own snake summons. That overwhelming fire-power would stomp Nagato.


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## Mercurial (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Dont you think that Orochimaru wont have reactions good enough to burrow/leech into the ground before Nagato can use Deva Path's power?



Well he didn't show anything even close. Nagato stomps both scenarios.


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## Bonly (Aug 2, 2015)

Asura path and Deva path can handle all the snakes Orochi brings to the party and Preta path to deal with whatever elemental ninjutsu Orochi might use. Then's it's just be a long match of Nagato kicking Orochi's ass until Nagato goes for a soul rip eventually and end things for good.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well he didn't show anything even close. Nagato stomps both scenarios.



I agree. Orochimaru gets wrecked.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 2, 2015)

Nagato mops the floor with him.


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## T-Bag (Aug 4, 2015)

Nagato _probably_ wins, but he's not "stomping" the strongest of the sannin. Orochimaru is very calculating and crafty in battle/he's a genius

In fact we tend to underestimate orochimaru because through out most the manga he couldn't use his arms. this guy was toying with a kyuubi-naruto in a dying body, goes to show how difficult he can be to kill


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 4, 2015)

Scenario 1: Nagato takes it, with moderate difficulty.
Scenario 2: Orochimaru solos with ease due to ET Hokages.


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## Thunder (Aug 4, 2015)

The first scenario is clear cut. Orochimaru doesn't stand a chance against an evolved Sharingan without his strongest weapon.

The second scenario can go either way. I say that because no knowledge is a problem for the underdog here. Yeah, Orochimaru can win the second scenario with ease by summoning the Edo Hokage, but he's not going to unveil his ultimate right away against an opponent he knows nothing about. So it's very possible Nagato kills Orochimaru with Banshō Ten'in + Soul Rip before Orochimaru realizes he's in over his head. Depends how Nagato fights when he's not being controlled.


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## Rocky (Aug 4, 2015)

I doubt that the BT + Soul Rip combo (or any other combination involving Banshō Ten'in) would suffice to actually end things when Orochimaru can throw up a tidal wave of dagger-wielding snakes or transform into a giant hydra. Nagato is capable of systematically beating the shit out of Orochimaru, but the "White Snake" is one of the more slippery characters. I'd be surprised if he got demolished in one move.

There are characters that can theoretically beat Orochimaru before he can summon any zombies, but I don't see Nagato being one of them. Imo, Nagato's much a more of a "cover all of my bases and wear you down" type of fighter. 

That's not to say that Nagato doesn't have the muscle to level Orochimaru in a panel. CST or CT would probably suffice, or there's a the theoretical super-powered BT that pulls Orochimaru into a chainsaw before he can do anything. That said, with no knowledge, I don't think those big techniques would happen fast enough.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2015)

Roshomon Gates too.

It's plausible Orochimaru would bring out his big guns fast against the Rinnegan like Jiraiya did. I can't really see him losing the second scenario, or winning the first scenario.​


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

LeBoyka said:


> Not really.
> 
> Scenario 2 would go to Oro due to his ability to simply use Edo Tensei to summon all four hokage, along with his own snake summons. That overwhelming fire-power would stomp Nagato.



Lol that assumes he does that before Bt +soul rip

Also only hashirama is a threat to Nagato . The others can be black roded and even used against orochimaru


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 5, 2015)

Nagato absolutely wrecks in the first scenario his offense is too pitiful to put a six path user in trouble and his defense means nothing before human path or strongest deva path techniques in the long run. 

In scenario 2 oro would just watch nagato get ragdolled after he summons the edo kage. Oro has a few ways to gain a bit of time if he do feel pressured.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

Minato +tobirama +hiruzen are incapable of ragdoglling hashirama 
Minato is the only slight threat the rest are insignificant


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato +tobirama +hiruzen are incapable of ragdoglling hashirama
> Minato is the only slight threat the rest are insignificant



So with no knowledge nagato's opening move will be to just try and control the strongest kage he knows nothing about. Nah sounds to meta. It's like me saying oro uses LAC and boss snake burying to go many yards away and set up edo with no knowledge on nagato as a opening move.

Also i am pretty sure since hashirama is working for oro here he would just laugh off nagato's control like he did oro's wood style empowered control. Also help that oro can use said control to help override nagato's with ease(nagato's control was defied by Pain arc BSM naruto at close range where it is the strongest).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 5, 2015)

Yeah Oro is hard to put down, but he is completely outgunned here. Nagato's STJ is too much for Oro.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 5, 2015)

> Also only hashirama is a threat to Nagato



BM Minato is a threat too. 

Anyway, Orochimaru is not fast enough to use ET before getting stomped. Nagato wrecks him.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> So with no knowledge nagato's opening move will be to just try and control the strongest kage he knows nothing about. Nah sounds to meta. It's like me saying oro uses LAC and boss snake burying to go many yards away and set up edo with no knowledge on nagato as a opening move.
> 
> Also i am pretty sure since hashirama is working for oro here he would just laugh off nagato's control like he did oro's wood style empowered control. Also help that oro can use said control to help override nagato's with ease(nagato's control was defied by Pain arc BSM naruto at close range where it is the strongest).



Ur right his opening move would be to neg diff oro before any summoning happens . Oro can't buy time at all

There is nothing he can do . LAC which isn't even a DB tech ? Easy counter CT


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Ur right his opening move would be to neg diff oro before any summoning happens


Mindset-IC, Knowledge none. But nagato is coming out guns blazing with his strongest techs to kill oro before oro do a single seal summon. Okay. Even basho tenin can be stalled a bit by no seal needing giant snakes anchoring him down(the ones he showed against the god tree). 



> Oro can't buy time at all


With snake tsunami, ground melding and boss summon shelters/meat shields sure he can last a bit against nagato's more casual offense. 



> There is nothing he can do . LAC which isn't even a DB tech ? Easy counter CT


CT at the beginning of the match again eh. Even if we assumed he did that it is hardly instant or godly fast going off how long it took to catch naruto, itachi and bee. So oro claps his hands and let the hokage handle the orb from there(tailed beast ball+elemental storm+infinite explosions or warping the orb when it comes in contact with a ftg users chakra).


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't see Orochimaru wasting time in the 2nd Scenario either, he gets defeated in the 1st scenario but the moment the Edo Kages make it onto the dance floor, it becomes a colossal stomp in Orochimaru's favor.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't see why he'd attempt to bring out the Edo Kage against a random opponent without knowledge. I definitely think Nagato rips his soul before Orochimaru gets serious, because Orochimaru doesn't know he can rip his soul in close. For a regenerating immortal armed with Kusanagi I don't see why Orochimaru would shy away from getting close to Nagato. 

Orochimaru is arrogant, has everyone forgotten that?
~1 Paneled by Itachi twice
~3-toma Genjutsu solo'd by Sasuke

And these were ninja he had some knowledge on. 

Dude was playing around with KN4 Naruto- this after KN3 Naruto ripped his arm off.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

@black
Read davizwiz post 
That's my reply to you 
You assume oro will summon before Nagato kills him why 
Neither have knowldedge correct 

do explain how the EDo kages get rid of the orb though and not risk oro dying am
Curious


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## Bonly (Aug 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @black
> Read davizwiz post
> That's my reply to you
> You assume oro will summon before Nagato kills him why
> ...



Orochi only lacks knowledge on Nagato as in who he is and what not, Orochi doesn't lose his other knowledge and as we know Orochi did do some research on the Rinnegan so seeing Nagato's eyes might have Orochi opt out for Edo Tensei sooner rather then later.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I don't see why he'd attempt to bring out the Edo Kage against a random opponent without knowledge. I definitely think Nagato rips his soul before Orochimaru gets serious.
> 
> Orochimaru is arrogant, has everyone forgotten that?
> 
> Dude was playing around with KN3 Naruto- this after KN1 Naruto ripped his arm off.


Yeah, but I don't think Orochimaru would attempt to take on a Rin'negan user without using his full force either. He maybe lax in battle but he also used ET against Hiruzen and that was for laughs too. So I don't know, Orochimaru is just a mystery... 

Likewise, Nagato wouldn't attempt to use BT/Soul Rip right off the bat either, I can see him using summons first (which he did against Jiraiya, again with Naruto and then again with Naruto/Bee). He used the BT/SR under Kabuto's control, I don't see it necessarily playing out like that here.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @black
> You assume oro will summon before Nagato kills him why
> Neither have knowldedge correct


Yeah but one uses edo tensei as a opener everytime he could(against hiruzen for shits and giggles and as soon as he restored his arms back to full power). Pain never flies out in battle using CST, CT etc. More like animals and lower tier deva path powers.

Point is edo tensei has shown to be a preferred and casual method for oro to do battle. 



> do explain how the EDo kages get rid of the orb though and not risk oro dying am
> Curious


Already said warping the ball away was a possibility. Also oro won't really be in danger. KCM naruto don't have the dura to survive a cumulative bijuudama, YM and FRS assault but he was fine. Projectiles launched at the ball directly will probably gravitate towards it quicker anyway leaving oro out the radius.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Orochi only lacks knowledge on Nagato as in who he is and what not, Orochi doesn't lose his other knowledge and as we know Orochi did do some research on the Rinnegan so seeing Nagato's eyes might have Orochi opt out for Edo Tensei sooner rather then later.


No knowledge means no knowledge man, that includes even reputation knowledge on the technique (Rinnegan is powerful, eyes of Six Path Sage, mutation? etc). 

For all his research on the Rinnegan, the guy didn't even know the regular Sharingan could cast Genjutsu. 

He likely knew less than Jiraiya (who trained a Rinnegan user), and even he opted to remain in base for a period against it (Animal Path).

Hypothetical Scenario:
No knowledge
Itachi vs. Orochimaru
Orochimaru is going to avoid eye contact if he sees the Sharingan because he was caught in genjutsu by it before, and he heard of Uchiha who cast Genjutsu with it?
No man, he doesn't know it can cast Genjutsu, because there's no knowledge.


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## Bonly (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No knowledge means no knowledge man.



No knowledge means no knowledge on his enemy. In part one Sasuke had no knowledge that Kakashi had the Sharingan but as soon as he saw the Sharingan he instantly knew what it was. Same thing he here, he doesn't know that Nagato has the Rinnegan but as soon as he see it he'll recognize it


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

No, no knowledge means no knowledge, period. Knowledge simply does pertain to the scenario, it's not part of the simulation at all. 

As in not even reputation knowledge (what you've heard about it from others, if you've fought it before, if you've researched it etc).

Essentially if Minato were in a scenario with his hokage cloak on, and there was no knowledge, that hokage cloak shouldn't be an indication that Minato is powerful- there is no knowledge allowed in the scenario. Same thing for an Akatsuki Cloak.

The only thing Orochimaru should take from it is "Damn, those are weird looking eyes."


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## Bonly (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, no knowledge means no knowledge, period.
> 
> As in not even reputation knowledge (what you've heard about it from others, if you've fought it before, if you've researched it etc).
> 
> Essentially If Minato were in a scenario with his hokage cloak on, and there was no knowledge, that hokage cloak shouldn't be an indication that Minato is powerful- there is no knowledge on it. Same thing for an Akatsuki Cloak.


 
Then we have different views on knowledge and no knowledge as I chose to go the way of the manga.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

You're deliberately granting Orochimaru reputation knowledge (This guy must be strong because he has a Rinnegan- I heard the Sage of the Six Paths had that Dojutsu) and part manga knowledge on the Rinnegan (Researched it, know Sasuke has it, Know [Yahiko Body] had it in Akatsuki).

No knowledge means exactly what it sounds like, nothing to do with Nagato or his techniques should be familiar to Orochimaru.

The same goes both ways, Nagato shouldn't start the battle sensing the chakra that was used to revive him (Kabuto~ Orochimaru), which is something that even Kimimaro realized (Orochimaru), then suddenly assume this ninja must be powerful (revived dead S-ranks) and blow him to nothing with CST.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

I was always under the impression that no knowledge meant specifically the user doesn't know anything about his opponent but still retains whatever knowledge he gained through his studies as a shinobi and lifetime experience.

If not, then I've been doing NBD wrong my whole life


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## Bonly (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You're deliberately granting Orochimaru reputation knowledge (This guy must be strong because he has a Rinnegan- I heard the Sage of the Six Paths had that Dojutsu) and part manga knowledge on the Rinnegan (Researched it, know Sasuke has it, Know [Yahiko Body] had it in Akatsuki).
> 
> No knowledge means exactly what it sounds like, nothing to do with Nagato or his techniques should be familiar to Orochimaru.



Couldn't careless as I go the way of the manga. As said before I believe no knowledge means he doesn't know anything about Nagato from the get go but he doesn't lose all of his other knowledge, we'll have to agree to disagree


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No knowledge means exactly what it sounds like, nothing to do with Nagato or his techniques should be familiar to Orochimaru.



That's silly. You think that if I made a "Hokage Naruto vs. War Kakashi" thread with no knowledge, Naruto wouldn't know anything about the Sharingan? Despite his rival being Sasuke?


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

@black
Davizwiz post read it


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's silly. You think that if I made a "Hokage Naruto vs. War Kakashi" thread with no knowledge, Naruto wouldn't know anything about the Sharingan? Despite his rival being Sasuke?


I don't understand what is so hard to comprehend about "no knowledge" as it pertains to a match up between two opposing ninja

If one of the ninja possesses the Dojutsu Sharingan, the other ninja with "no knowledge", why would he know about it?

That's either reputation or manga knowledge being granted, in which case the knowledge stipulation should be "reputation" or "manga" or "he doesn't know who blank shinobi is, but he knows about Sharingan"

Let me ask you this: If Naruto fights Itachi without knowledge, should he expect Amaterasu to shoot or Susano to open or should he avoid eye contact altogether once Itachi shows MS oculars, because he knows Sasuke and Madara and Obito and has seen/been told that they used Susano & Amaterasu & Genjutsu on Kurama with a similar looking eyes/advanced designed Sharingans (MS/EMS)?


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## Thunder (Aug 5, 2015)

I agree with DaVizWiz. No knowledge means exactly that: _no knowledge_.

So the way I see it is, Orochimaru doesn't know anything about Nagato here. Whatever knowledge Orochimaru should have on Nagato and all of his abilities due to the plot (including the Rinnegan itself which is a _jutsu_) coming into the fight just got erased in his mind. The match starts and Orochimaru sees some guy with weird eyes. That's it. Any other knowledge will have to be gained mid battle for both combatants.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 5, 2015)

May as well say Orochimaru wouldn't know what a Suiton is while you're at it.


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## Thunder (Aug 5, 2015)

We restrict a character's knowledge for the same reason we restrict their jutsu: in order to create balanced match-ups. That's hard to do if we assume characters only _start_ with no knowledge, and they instantly pick up on certain information the moment they lay eyes on the other character thanks to prior knowledge they've gained throughout the manga, if that's what you're  saying.

Basic shinobi knowledge (i.e. knowing what a Suton or a kunai is) obviously isn't messed with. That sort of information doesn't make a match-up unbalanced. If we're assuming Orochimaru knows all about the Rinnegan because he researched it in the manga, why stop there? He also saw everything Nagato did via Kabuto. So just grant Orochimaru full knowledge here while leaving Nagato's at none to clear up the confusion. 

Or just specify that Nagato has reputation knowledge.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah but one uses edo tensei as a opener everytime he could(against hiruzen for shits and giggles and as soon as he restored his arms back to full power). Pain never flies out in battle using CST, CT etc. More like animals and lower tier deva path powers.
> 
> Point is edo tensei has shown to be a preferred and casual method for oro to do battle.
> 
> ...



Naruto was fine due to V4 susanoo something oro doesn't have 
Wrap t away to where ?
With what mark

Do explain


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol that assumes he does that before Bt +soul rip



He could do it during his travel from point A to point B. Even spitting out a new body would get him out of BT. Or summon Manda. He has a huge number of options to buy him time.

BT + Soul Rip is honestly the biggest circlejerk in the Battledome. It's tactically unwise to use because it sets Nagato's best defense on cooldown while simultaneously bringing an alarmed enemy to him.

I mean, let's say Orochimaru responds to the pull of BT with Mandara no Jin. What's Nagato going to do then? Hobble his crippled ass out of the way? Absorb snakes? No. He's going to get fucked.​


Icegaze said:


> Also only hashirama is a threat to Nagato. The others can be black roded and even used against orochimaru



I don't think Hashirama or BM Minato are "threats" to Nagato. I think they both neg diff him without so much as a scratch or sore muscle. They're so much stronger that it's not a discussion for me.

Tobirama is also someone I would consider capable of defeating Nagato, although not overall more powerful. Hiruzen could potentially win with Shiki Fujin as well given that he's supported.​


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## FlamingRain (Aug 5, 2015)

Thunder said:


> We restrict a character's knowledge for the same reason we restrict their jutsu: in order to create balanced match-ups.



This match is imbalanced either way (and it's not alone in that regard) so I don't know why that even matters. Level of knowledge is a factor in the "mind" stat of the databook, too, so I would still consider it.

No knowledge is having no specific intel on a particular person. They might know of a Jutsu, but not know the opponent can bust it out. Ex., Tsunade had no knowledge of either Naruto or Kabuto, but could still recognize both the Rasengan and the Chakra Scalpels.

When somebody has reputation knowledge that would be the reputation of that particular person, not every trait of that person. Otherwise anytime you pitted a character against another with Suitons they would have all knowledge of Suiton erased from their minds.

You can't tell which Jutsu a specific member of Akatsuki has access to just by looking at them, but you can see the Akatsuki cloak itself and realize that messing around probably wouldn't be a good idea even without knowing who that member of Akatsuki is. Chiyo is a fine example of what it looks like when somebody is unaware of their adversary's identity/reputation and yet still able to recognize a certain feature of theirs, because she had no idea who the heck Itachi was at first and yet knew to watch it around the Sharingan.

Recognizing the Rinnegan itself isn't the same thing as coming to expect Shinra Tensei, Zōfuku Kuchiyose, Preta, Naraka, et al anyway, as Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima demonstrated for us.

The problem is someone like Orochimaru wouldn't need to see that much in order to realize he needs to summon the Edo Tensei'd Hokages anyway.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> This match is imbalanced either way (and it's not alone in that regard) so I don't know why that even matters. Level of knowledge is a factor in the "mind" stat of the databook, too, so I would still consider it.
> 
> *No knowledge is having no specific intel on a particular person. They might know of a Jutsu, but not know the opponent can bust it out. Ex., Tsunade had no knowledge of either Naruto or Kabuto, but could still recognize both the Rasengan and the Chakra Scalpels.*
> 
> ...


The part in bold is how I've perceived no knowledge since I entered the NBD all those years ago. It depends on the match up but it respects the all around knowledge the fighter has (as that isn't limited). Someone like Orochimaru, who has spent his time researching all of the Rin'negan/Sharingan would have more knowledge than most but that's only unique to his character, like having the jutsu ET over another person.

Thunder/DaVizWiz also bring up a solid point in that, if you want to create a balanced match up, there should be a stipulation on the amount of general knowledge that is also presented. 

We should probably break it up into categories of knowledge, one being general (about the opponent) and the other being specific (about jutsu, dojutsu and etc.).


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

> No knowledge is having no specific intel on a particular person. They might know of a Jutsu, but not know the opponent can bust it out. Ex., Tsunade had no knowledge of either Naruto or Kabuto, but could still recognize both the Rasengan and the Chakra Scalpels.


No, I've been debating here for 4 years, I can honestly say it's always been no knowledge means no knowledge as far as I've read and played it. 

Knowing everything about a jutsu an opponent eventually uses means they have knowledge, that's not a "no knowledge" scenario, that's basically just not knowing the identity of your opponent. 

In a no knowledge situation Killer Bee should not know to use Bijuudama on CT because he did it in the manga and knows that's how you counter it. He should be dumbfounded about what's happening around him, helpless, just like he was in the manga without knowledge (until Naruto relayed his knowledge).


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

Has this debate ever come up before?

I have been here longer (on and off) but most of the time, generally, I've seen posters assume it the way FlamingRain, myself and Rocky have it done.

Perhaps, we should talk more about this then.

It'd be interesting to see how many people really side w/one over the other.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

I guess it's just another disagreement among the members.

Like allowing Kabuto/Orochimaru to have Edo Tensei (prepped) in these simulations. Some people said you need DNA/Sacrifice and they can't just use it, other people said they already had the rituals done and could technically summon the zombies at anytime. 

Eventually the dome just agreed that on the basis of having the "most powerful versions" of characters fight each other, we'd allow them to have their zombies ready for summoning.

I was one of the guys that caved in, because there were only like 3 dudes (including me) still saying they needed DNA/Sacrifices during the battle, after you hear "You didn't restrict ET, Kabuto shit stomps" 100 times you give up eventually. 

This is similar to that, just a difference in reasoning on how these simulations should work. 

My argument is simple, if you're saying "no knowledge", you outright mean no knowledge- I.E. no manga, reputation, or any other form of familiarity with the opponent or his/her fighting styles (all their techniques). The way you guys think is something similar to manga knowledge with the addition of ignoring the fact that the two opponents may have met/fought/heard of each other before in the manga = No knowledge. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean you don't have knowledge on them, the moment you recognize their technique you, by default, have knowledge, expunging the "no knowledge" possibility.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 5, 2015)

I understand where you are coming from and see how the argument arose, we should probably set some of these basics in stone before starting new threads, otherwise the confusion will always lead to a debate over definitions.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2015)

It's dependent upon how the OP words it, every new guy that comes on here and sees "Knowledge: None" or "Knowledge: Manga" is going to interpret it one way or the other, hell even the OP might interpret it differently then the people debating it

We could word it better, simply say "They don't know each other, but they have all the knowledge they acquired throughout the manga"

I've actually seen people do the above, they pretty much say "Knowledge: Manga, but assume they've never met or heard about each other"


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## Thunder (Aug 5, 2015)

*@FlamingRain*

To me no knowledge means no knowledge (it isn't that simple but I already elaborated). That makes match-ups more interesting for me and settles the issue of certain characters possessing an inherent knowledge advantage over others. A character's knowledge _combined_ with all the other stipulations will determine if a match-up is unbalanced or not. 

This match-up isn't really unbalanced in my eyes because we have some good discussion brewing here. You've got a decent ratio of people arguing for Orochimaru and people arguing for Nagato. 

If you want them to always have their manga knowledge then just specify that in the OP by saying they have manga knowledge. Because that's what knowledge of the Rinnegan or Akatsuki cloak is in my eyes - manga knowledge. 

And that isn't changing for me unless this is actually a section rule issue. If you have a different interpretation on how to view knowledge it doesn't effect me at all bro; we'll just have to try and reach some middle ground when we debate or just debate with other people. Not a big deal since I tend to agree with you anyway.

And I disagree that Orochimaru wouldn't have to see much before summoning. Few abilities have ever caused Orochimaru real concern. Two of them being some of most powerful fūinjutsu in the manga and a Bijūdama (while he was in a weakened state to be fair). With the knowledge I grant him, Orochimaru has no reason to assume Nagato is packing either. Unless Nagato goes crazy from the start Orochimaru isn't casting his best jutsu early. A Soul Rip that he escapes from would prompt Orochimaru to get serious though. With the knowledge you grant him, Orochimaru would summon sooner than later. That's fine.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2015)

I think "no knowledge" can mean two things. 
It either means literally zero knowledge, or it can mean that no knowledge on that said person, but the character retains their general knowledge on the universe.

For example if X is facing a a sharingan user, no knowledge can either mean X has no knowledge on sharingan, or he has knowledge on sharingan(requires manga evidence) but has no idea what that individual can do with it.

By default I assume it is the former, that no knowledge transfers to literally no knowledge. 
Although that specific circumstance may be too convenient for one party and make the match unbalanced(in the case of a sharingan user). 
So I think it is fair to go with the latter, and grant general knowledge to both parties but remove all exclusive knowledge.
If someone sees sharingan, they may know what it does generally, but don't know what their opponent can do with it exclusively.


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2015)

Nagato stomps the first scenario. Orochimaru stomps the second, depending on what people sees as no knowledge.


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2015)

Nagato wins S1.

S2: It depends in many factors.

1- Oro should be focus all the time on controlling the ET, so Hashirama can't escape him. Or, he can put the tag in his heads (and/or the others). So, he gets control over him completely with no chance to escape. Thus, he does not have to worry about him. However, killing his mind and making him a complete puppet may make him weaker than he really is. 

2- The 2nd & 4th can't use their FTG when they are bind by the ET. So, if Oro is going to force them to fight, they will lose their most powerful jutsu, or at least the best they showed. Therefore, they won't be that good with fighting probably. The same if he putted the tags and took their brains away.

3- It depends on Kurama as well in Minato's case. If he is not willing to help Oro, chances are Minato will not be able to use his chakra either (best case scenario is KCM at most). In addition, we don't know if Oro can control Minato with Kurama's chakra, and since Kurama is not under Oro's control either way, he can challenge his control over Minato (poor man lol). So, that is going to be a huge factor as well.

4- Hiruzen, well...


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2015)

Do the Hokages have a reason to resist working with Orochimaru in this thread?


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He could do it during his travel from point A to point B. Even spitting out a new body would get him out of BT. Or summon Manda. He has a huge number of options to buy him time.
> 
> BT + Soul Rip is honestly the biggest circlejerk in the Battledome. It's tactically unwise to use because it sets Nagato's best defense on cooldown while simultaneously bringing an alarmed enemy to him.
> 
> ...



Agreed 
And I conceed 
BT +soul rip is actually unwise 

Sometimes Nagato comes off hax other times he doesn't 

Oro can certainly escape it 

However tobirama stands no chance of ever defeating Nagato 
He is comically out matched


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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Do the Hokages have a reason to resist working with Orochimaru in this thread?



Hiruzen will ask him "Are you going to use us against Konoha now!?" and then Hashirama will kick his ass without Nagato having to move a finger .


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