# SM Jiraiya runs a gauntlet



## Richard Lionheart (May 12, 2014)

Location: Amegakure
Distance: 50 m
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC. 
Restrictions: - 
Jiraiya's chakra will be replenished after each round.

1. Kakashi without Kamui
2. Mei
3. Gaara
4. Ay
5. Tsunade
6. Onoki
7. Muu
8. SM Kabuto


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## Cognitios (May 12, 2014)

Does he start with Ma and Pa out?
Probably ends at Kabuto IMO.


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## Richard Lionheart (May 12, 2014)

Yes,indeed.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 12, 2014)

He rapes the first three rounds, iffy on him vs A seeing as A(packing cutting blows that can knock off the hachibi's horns) is most likely above asura path in strength who can rip jiraiya apart with ease. Plus if A just leaps out with V2 from the start like he did with minato it is looking grim for j-man. If shima can set up things like dust clouds+ultra big ball rasengan(large enough to cover gamabunta and A is not a sensor) or their paralyzing croaks+ultra big ball rasengan i can see him pulling the win. Not sure goemon could catch the raikage unless he jumped into a pit or something dumb so i will leave that out. 

But if he makes it past A no one can stop him except kabuto himself.


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## ARGUS (May 12, 2014)

Stops at Ay 
And loses the last 2 as well


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## tkpirate (May 12, 2014)

Onoki,Muu,and Kabuto defeats him.Kakashi,Mei,Gaara,and Tsunade gets defeated.the fight with Ay can go either way.


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## Turrin (May 12, 2014)

He would get to Kabuto, than stop. All the other enemies are ether inferior to him or if there is any room for debate the conditions being vastly in Jiraiya's favor give him the win regardless.


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## Mercurial (May 12, 2014)

Stops at MS less Kakashi, otherwise it would be a 50/50 with Ei and he would lose to SM Kabuto.

Kakashi is at least as fast (I'd say faster with his War Arc feats) and has Sharingan precognition. He is smarter and can avoid most of Jiraiya's attacks with trickery and speed. I don't really see SM Jiraiya managing to use Frog Song against a smart opponent like Kakashi, Jiraiya stunned by a RKB and then killed with Raikiri or bisected with Raiden is a lot more most likely to happen.

Against Ei it depends. V1 Ei is defeated while V2 Ei could probably win.

SM Kabuto solos with Mugen Onsa, better speed and reflexes, Hakugeki no jutsu etc


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## Complete_Ownage (May 12, 2014)

I think he stops at Mu and even if he does manage to win he's going to get fodderized by kabuto


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## Cognitios (May 12, 2014)

Stops at Kabuto IMO.
Kabuto > any individual sannin.
Muu isn't beating SM Jiraiya, J-mans his perfect counter.
Onoki isn't beating him either. Flight advantage is taken away by boss summons. Also boss summons can be used as meat tanks.
Tsunade's Slug is = Gamabunta, add in another toad and Katsuya doesn't make an advantage. Tsunade isn't hitting J-Man with his sensing.
Ay's dad was defeated by SM Naruto in one hit, I'll give it to Jiraiya.
Gaara won't win unless he's in the desert. even that is iffy
Mei < Sannin
Kakashi without MS < Sannin


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## Trojan (May 12, 2014)

He is superior to all of those imo. I think his jutsus are far more powerful than Kabuto's as well, but he might
lose against him. So, worst case scenario he loses against Kabuto.

Note: if Kabuto is allowed to use his ET, then he stomps obviously.


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## Bonly (May 12, 2014)

Depending on how they use Jinton throughout their fight Jiraiya might lose to Onoki and/or Muu but he loses to Kabuto for sure, everyone else can put up a decent fight at the most but they all lose more times then not.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 12, 2014)

Stops at Sage Kabuto...

I feel like Jiraiya is stronger than everyone else, bar Muu; he's just a bad match-up for him. 
Barriers, ranged techniques, sensing and speed are good counters to Muu.

Although, I believe Muu and Sage Jiraiya are pretty equal when it comes to tiers.

Sage Kabuto, however, is tiers above Sage Jiraiya...even with Ni Dai Sennin.


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## ShadowReaper (May 12, 2014)

Stops at SM Kabuto. Muu and Oonoki will be the strongest opponents, but he will still take them down. He is far too fast and can dodge any Jinton attacks, also has enhanced chakra sensing with SM and would be able to detect Muu and is more versatile. Also the 3 toads summon will help a lot.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Doesn't get past 4th round. Raikage dismembers him with a 300km/h lariat.

Loses  to Onoki & Kabuto too, most likely. Not saying he doesn't have a shot @ winning but I'd give these 2 better odds than Jman.


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## ARGUS (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't get past 4th round. Raikage dismembers him with a 300km/h lariat.
> 
> Loses  to Onoki & Kabuto too, most likely. Not saying he doesn't have a shot @ winning but I'd give these 2 better odds than Jman.



I agree 
I don't see how jiraiya beats A..


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## Richard Lionheart (May 13, 2014)

Jiraiya could easily defeat Ay with his genjutsu.Addionally I don't see how Ay is countering Gamayu Endan.


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## Cognitios (May 13, 2014)

> Jiraiya could easily defeat Ay with his genjutsu.


That's assuming ma and pa can even prep it. Ay will be rushing him constantly so Ma and Pa will need to help defend, they can't just be prepping frog song idly. I do 


> Addionally I don't see how Ay is countering Gamayu Endan.


Ay tanks it easily.


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## Richard Lionheart (May 13, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> That's assuming ma and pa can even prep it. Ay will be rushing him constantly so Ma and Pa will need to help defend, they can't just be prepping frog song idly. I do
> 
> Ay tanks it easily.



How is he going to tank a Juubi sized flame?The Jutsu won't kill him(probably), but it should at least cause significant  burns and internal injuries.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2014)

Legendary Pervert said:


> Jiraiya could easily defeat Ay with his genjutsu.


Yeah sure, it will be too damn easy to prep frog song against one of the fastest guys in the manga.
How is Jiraiya going to keep the distance between him @ A ? 


> Addionally I don't see how Ay is countering Gamayu Endan.



I see him countering it by forcefully making his way through Gamabunta's rectum and coming out from the top of his head, ripping Jiraiya half in the process.


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## Richard Lionheart (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can you explain what that is supposed to tell me ?
> .


Of course. 
I just wanted to show you how Jiraiya would be able to keep Ay at distance.The majority of this jutsus don't even require the assistance of the sage toads.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A dodged Amaterasu. He will dodge everything Jiraiya throws @ him with no problems.


The problem is that Amaterasu is nowhere near as extensive as Senpo Goemon.


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## Mithos (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A dodged Amaterasu. He will dodge everything Jiraiya throws @ him with no problems.



Speed doesn't mean he can dodge everything. If Jiraiya can force him to jump to avoid one of his AoE attacks - and jumping is a common evasion tactic - then Jiraiya can hit him while he's airborne and can't dodge. In fact, A jumped and was smacked down by the Mokuton Buddha - he can be hit by attacks. 

This forum needs to realize that having superior speed, even massively superior speed, doesn't mean they can't get touched.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

50m starting distance. Jiriaya starts in Sennin Modo. Jiriaya has manga knowledge, which means he knows of Ei's speed. Sennin Modo Jiriaya has 5min prep. People are really arguing that Ei wins, really!. 

Hell even if the match started at 5m, Sennin Modo J-man would almost certainly win, as Ei would start out in R1, go to hit him misjudging his speed in Sennin Modo, and get hit with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Even if Ei did start out by amping his shroud Fukasaku and Shima would use Senpo-Frog-Call stunning him and than J-man hits him with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Thee end.

Ei stands zero chances against Sennin Modo J-man. His only chance against Jiriaya is if Jiriaya starts in Base and Ei starts to the match max-speed, before Jiriaya gets a chance to do anything, which is almost inconceivable because even when up against the Yellow-Flash he allowed Minato time to throw Kunai around, before using his max-speed.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hell even if the match started at 5m, Sennin Modo J-man would almost certainly win, as Ei would start out in R1, go to hit him misjudging his speed in Sennin Modo, and get hit with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan.



What makes you think Jiraiya can form that in response to a lightning shrouded flicker?



> Even if Ei did start out by amping his shroud Fukasaku and Shima would use Senpo-Frog-Call stunning him and than J-man hits him with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Thee end.



He can avoid Frog Call easier than he did Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

If Jiraiya + his summons were fully healed, and not just his chakra, I'd say he makes it up to kabuto where kabuto wins with extreme diff.  

If it's just his chakra being replenished, then he might stop at one of the jinton users.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What makes you think Jiraiya can form that in response to a lightning shrouded flicker?


R1 Speed? Pretty much everything in the manga makes me think that. Three-Tome Sasuke was holistically faster than R1 Ei, the same Three-Tome Sasuke who characters like Yamato and Sai were not blitz'd by. R1 Ei's speed is not something that can blitz highly skilled ninja. This supported by both Suigetsu and Juugo reacting to R1 Ei. And before you bring up R1 Ei blitzing Juugo, he only did so after putting a hole through Juugo and taking advantage of Juugo's LOS being blocked by the lazers, so it was less of a blitz and more of a blind-side on a weakened adversary.

Sennin Modo J-man feat of blitzing Human-Realm, is much better than anything R1-Ei has to his name, after all, all the Pain paths demonstrated incredibly high speed keeping up with Sennin Modo Naruto, whose clone was holistically faster than Sandaime-Raikage. Same thing with Fukasaku who also kept up with Sennin Modo Naruto. 

Not that a single or even a few blows from Ei's would put down Sennin Modo Jiriaya anyway, considering this is the guy who survived Tsunade's blows and KN4 in base.



> He can avoid Frog Call easier than he did Amaterasu.


How is he doing that, it's sound.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> R1 Speed? Pretty much everything in the manga makes me think that. Three-Tome Sasuke was holistically faster than R1 Ei, the same Three-Tome Sasuke who characters like Yamato and Sai were not blitz'd by. R1 Ei's speed is not something that can blitz highly skilled ninja. This supported by both Suigetsu and Juugo reacting to R1 Ei. And before you bring up R1 Ei blitzing Juugo, he only did so after putting a hole through Juugo and taking advantage of Juugo's LOS being blocked by the lazers, so it was less of a blitz and more of a blind-side on a weakened adversary.



I don't think I ever claimed that Raikage would straight up blitz Jiraiya without charging to maximum power first. I asked you how he would form a massive Rasengan in response to it.

Sasuke wasn't faster than Ē. Sauce dodged his Erubō, not his Raiton: Shunshin, which is where the impressive speed comes from. Had Ē used the lightning body flicker there, Sasuke would've been forced to guard, like _Naruto_ or _Madara._



> Sennin Modo J-man feat of blitzing Human-Realm, is much better than anything R1-Ei has to his name, after all, all the Pain paths demonstrated incredibly high speed keeping up with Sennin Modo Naruto, whose clone was holistically faster than Sandaime-Raikage. Same thing with Fukasaku who also kept up with Sennin Modo Naruto.



I wouldn't classify a counter-kick as a solid blitz. Human Path hasn't kept up with Sage Naruto up close anyway.

I also don't know where you get this "holistically faster" stuff from. Naruto dodging the Sandaime Raikage's Nukite doesn't make him faster. Money Mayweather can probably avoid and counter-punch Bolt before Bolt even know what hits him, but Floyd isn't beating Usain in a race. 



> Not that a single or even a few blows from Ei's would put down Sennin Modo Jiriaya anyway, considering this is the guy who survived Tsunade's blows and KN4 in base.



I do believe Jiraiya can mount a guard against the Raikage, but if Ē decides to use his Susano'o cracking Raigyaku Suihei instead of his fist, Jiraiya's a dead man regardless of any block. Ditto if Ē just grabs Jiraiya and Liger bombs him.



> How is he doing that, it's sound.



Avoid the spiral sound waves that the Elder Sages emit.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Speed doesn't mean he can dodge everything. If Jiraiya can force him to jump to avoid one of his AoE attacks - and jumping is a common evasion tactic - then Jiraiya can hit him while he's airborne and can't dodge.



Sort of like how Sasuke _forced_ Itachi into the air with Gōkakyū, and followed up with Chidori.

....yet Itachi avoided that. 

Sasuke _avoided_ B in midair as well. I'm sure a shinobi as agile as cloaked Raikage can replicate something that hald-dead & blind Itachi did.



> In fact, A jumped and was smacked down by the Mokuton Buddha - he can be hit by attacks.



He cut one of its hands off in Base before that happened. And that thing was kind of big....


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sort of like how Sasuke _forced_ Itachi into the air with Gōkakyū, and followed up with Chidori.
> 
> ....yet Itachi avoided that.
> 
> Sasuke _avoided_ B in midair as well. I'm sure a shinobi as agile as cloaked Raikage can replicate something that hald-dead & blind Itachi did.


itachi actually has jutsu that he can use in order to maneuver in the air.  If Ei is gunna avoid a hit, he's going to have to pull a sasuke vs Bee or counterattack, which is impossible if Jiraiya tries SM OR/COR.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> itachi actually has jutsu that he can use in order to maneuver in the air.



Excuse me?  



> If Ei is gunna avoid a hit, he's going to have to pull a sasuke vs Bee or counterattack, which is impossible if Jiraiya tries SM OR/COR.



Not if he just jumps over the Rasengan, or even flickers away.


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Excuse me?


kagebunshin




Rocky said:


> Not if he just jumps over the Rasengan, or even flickers away.


Unless Ei can double jump or opens the 8th gate, he can't jump while airborne.  I don't remember the manga ever implying one could flicker while in midair.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> kagebunshin



And where did you see a Kage Busnhin assist Itachi in evading Chidori?



> Unless Ei can double jump or opens the 8th gate, he can't jump while airborne.



He'll jump over Jiraiya just like Sasuke jumped over B.



> And I don't remember the manga ever implying one could flicker while in midair.



I don't think the starting point matters. Many shinobi are capable of maneuvering freely in the air, most of which are less agile than Raikage. Itachi, Sasuke, Kid Lee, etc.


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> And where did you see a Kage Busnhin assist Itachi in evading Chidori?


We didn't see how itachi evaded chidori, but does that mean Itachi didn't use a kage bunshin to evade chidori?  No.  




Rocky said:


> He'll jump over Jiraiya just like Sasuke jumped over B.


*look at the scan again, *Sasuke catapulted himself over bee by pushing off bee's shoulder.  how can Ei do that if the only thing he has to push off of is the giant rasengan?




Rocky said:


> I don't think the starting point matters. Many shinobi are capable of maneuvering freely in the air, most of which are less agile than Raikage. Itachi, Sasuke, Kid Lee, etc.


I don't remember any of those guys doing A to B movements in the air that defied their initial trajectory.  Considering all the times that people have had to do things like make a kagebunshin, summon something, or use an body extension-like jutsu in order to course correct mid-air even if it's just a little plus the fact that shushin seems to factor in a shinobi's physicality, I highly doubt one's able to use shunshin while airborne.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't think I ever claimed that Raikage would straight up blitz Jiraiya without charging to maximum power first. I asked you how he would form a massive Rasengan in response to it.


In response to what? Ei's Max-Speed or Ei's R1 Speed? Because I only said he'd form Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan against R1 Ei's speed, not Max-Speed. 



> Sasuke wasn't faster than Ē. Sauce dodged his Erubō,


Sasuke was faster than R1 Ei because he dodged R1 Ei's Erubo and landed his own attack. 



> not his Raiton: Shunshin, which is where the impressive speed comes from.


Now your referring to something different. That's not R1 Ei's speed. That's R1 Ei's Shunshin speed.  Two completely different things.



> Had Ē used the lightning body flicker there, Sasuke would've been forced to guard, like Naruto or Madara.


Of course if someone is using Shunshin speed, while the other person isn't they are going to have more trouble reacting. But again that has zero relevance to what I was speaking towards.



> wouldn't classify a counter-kick as a solid blitz.


If this isn't a blitz nothing is:
*look at the scan again, *

He also blitz's Animal Path before he can summon here:
*look at the scan again, *



> uman Path hasn't kept up with Sage Naruto up close anyway.


Multiple paths have been shown to keep up with Sennin Modo Naruto. HG-Realm outright dodges Sennin Modo Naruto's attacks and Sennin Modo Naruto needed Frog Katas to catch him off guard. Deva-Path reacted to him numerous times. Whether it's Human path or not, they are all going to have the same reactions as Nagato is the one controlling all of them and they all have access to Rinnegan's abilities. 



> I also don't know where you get this "holistically faster" stuff from. Naruto dodging the Sandaime Raikage's Nukite doesn't make him faster. Money Mayweather can probably avoid and counter-punch Bolt before Bolt even know what hits him, but Floyd isn't beating Usain in a race.


Holistically faster means with all things considered. Sandaime-Raikage may be faster in a foot race, but Sennin Modo Dat-Clone was faster overall. Why because Sennin Modo dat-clone could evade Sandaime-Raikage's attack [at the last second] and land his own before Sandaime can react. It's the same reason why Madara cites Sasuke's special tome offering Sasuke greater predict as the reason he's so fast. It's the same reason Naruto considers himself faster in Sennin Modo than in KCM. etc...



> I do believe Jiraiya can mount a guard against the Raikage, but if Ē decides to use his Susano'o cracking Raigyaku Suihei instead of his fist, Jiraiya's a dead man regardless of any block. Ditto if Ē just grabs Jiraiya and Liger bombs him.


This is nonsense. Base-Jiraiya tanked KN4's attack, which is leagues above's the force of Ei's attacks. Like wise Base-Jiraiya also consistently tanked blows from Tsunade and she didn't hold back considering she brought him close to death in one instance, which is again leagues above Ei.

Jiriaya is not some chump in physical strength or durability, even in Base he has a 4.5 in Str, and we've seen a mere poke of his finger send Part I-Naruto flying through the air. And his will is crazy literally willing himself back from the dead after being stabbed by 7 chakra rods, throat torn out, and arm torn off. Base Jiraiya should be able to take a fair amount of hits from Ei and keep going.

I have doubts whether Ei could even do any substantial damage at all to Sennin Modo Jiriaya, considering his feats of durability/strength in Base and the absolutely massive increase Senjutsu gives someone in these areas as well as it's added regeneration. Hell even Sennin Modo Fukasaku was clashing in CQC with Sennin Modo Naruto, whose physical strength is also leagues above Ei's.



> Avoid the spiral sound waves that the Elder Sages emit.


The spiral sound waves are just there to show that it's a sound is emanating from them and is the source of their attack . The same way we see waves of sound with Tayuya's Genjutsu and Frog Song. But it's not like you can simply evade these waves, as their is sound coming from the waves and as long as your in auditory range your fucked.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> We didn't see how itachi evaded chidori, but does that mean Itachi didn't use a kage bunshin to evade chidori?  No.



Please stop making things up. 

Unless you want to point out the scan where the Kage Bunshin was created, appeared, destroyed, or even _mentioned_, then we're done here. 



> *look at the scan again, *Sasuke catapulted himself over bee by pushing off bee's shoulder.  how can Ei do that if the only thing he has to push off of is the giant rasengan?



1.) So you're saying that Sasuke avoided B's fist, which was extended in front of him, by pushing off of B's back? Um..

2.) Ē could probably push off the Rasengan anyway. You know as well as anyone that Rasengan and its variants do not explode right away, but grind first. Ē's durability and shroud will protect him from whatever grinding damage the Rasengan does to his hand while pushing off.



> I don't remember any of those guys doing A to B movements in the air that defied their initial trajectory.



Itachi moving back to evade chidori, Sasuke positioning himself to evade B, and Lee juggling Gaara in midair.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

@Rocky

It's so incredibly obvious that Itachi used a Jutsu to evade Sasuke's chidori, that I can't even. I mean there was a fricking explosion, Chidori doesn't cause that.


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Please stop making things up.
> 
> Unless you want to point out the scan where the Kage Bunshin was created, appeared, destroyed, or even _mentioned_, then we're done here.


 It's a deductive argument, if Itachi didn't dodge it like Sasuke did to bee and if shunshin isn't usable in the air, then he had to have used one of his techniques to dodge it.





Rocky said:


> 1.) So you're saying that Sasuke avoided B's fist, which was extended in front of him, by pushing off of B's back? Um..


yes, that's what the manga shows us, we see that little tick on Bee's shoulder and sasuke spinning away from it, plus it's a lariat, not a punch so the fist isn't what sasuke would be avoiding or what bee was trying to connect.  Bee even said Sasuke DEFLECTED his attack. 



Rocky said:


> 2.) Ē could probably push off the Rasengan anyway. You know as well as anyone that Rasengan and its variants do not explode right away, but grind first. Ē's durability and shroud will protect him from whatever grinding damage the Rasengan does to his hand while pushing off.


Rasengans explode when the user wants them to, that's why while Jiraiya's rasengan can burrow into a tree and not dispate at the same time naruto's can blow a wall open.  Ei is not going to be able to push off the rasengan, his limbs are going to get shredded the moment they make contact with the ball.  SM Naruto's rasengan was already cracking Sandaime raikage's arm the *instant it made contact.*

What would actually happen is Jiraiya shoving the rasengan into Ei and letting it carry him for some distance like it did to Juubito and Deva and then exploding, Ei trying to push off and achieving no momentum since his limbs get shredded since he shoved them into the rasengan, or Jiraiya just detonates the rasengan when it hits Ei like what happened when the rasengan hit obito's or Sandaime's arm.




Rocky said:


> Itachi moving back to evade chidori,


can't you see that by the logic in which you evaluated my claim about itachi using kagebunshin above, you'd can't claim him evading chidori as positive evidence since we don't see how he evaded the technique.



Rocky said:


> Sasuke positioning himself to evade B, and Lee juggling Gaara in midair.


Sasuke was shown and explained, lee was probably rebounding off of walls.

Ask yourself, if someone as inexperienced with ninjutsu as chuunin lee can use shunshin so effectively as to use it in rapid succession and air juggle gaara, why is it that naruto has to make a kage bunshin to dodge, Sasuke has to push off of Bee's shoulder, Gai has to summon a turtle, SM Naruto and datclone need to push off of something in order to go higher, cloaked lee needs to push off of Gai in order to kick madara, Sasuke needs to extend snake arms in order to get into the trees, Obito needs to use his gunbai to dodge naruto's charka arm, etc?


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

And the thing with B, was that B's attack was coming from bellow Sasuke, and Sasuke tucked his legs to his chest, so that B's attack would slip bellow him and than he pushed off of B with his legs, so that he could nail the landing.

If someone could magically jump around in the sky, you wouldn't see Naruto and Gai, having to create jumping points with KB or summons. You wouldn't see KB having to be used to pull people out of the way of attacks when they are air born. There would be no point to Onoki's flight technique Etc...


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## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In response to what? Ei's Max-Speed or Ei's R1 Speed? Because I only said he'd form Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan against R1 Ei's speed, not Max-Speed.



His Raiton flicker in either v1 or v2. If you're talking about Jiraiya using Rasengan to Raikage's Erubo, then I agree with that.



> Sasuke was faster than R1 Ei because he dodged R1 Ei's Erubo and landed his own attack.



That doesn't make Sasuke faster. Slower people are very capable of counter punching faster people. 



> Now your referring to something different. That's not R1 Ei's speed. That's R1 Ei's Shunshin speed.  Two completely different things.



When I debate Raikage, that's what I'm usually talking about. His v1 flicker speed pressured people like KCM Naruto, Madara, and Obito.



> Of course if someone is using Shunshin speed, while the other person isn't they are going to have more trouble reacting. But again that has zero relevance to what I was speaking towards.



I originally said Jiraiya wouldn't be able to counter Ē's _*flicker*_ with Chō Ōdama Rasengan.  



> If this isn't a blitz nothing is:
> *instant it made contact.*
> 
> He also blitz's Animal Path before he can summon here:
> *instant it made contact.*



The counter kick on Human isn't a blitz. I'm pretty sure it was made clear that J-man couldn't blitz Human when the path casually reacted to him later on in that fight.

Animal path feat looks legit though. 



> Multiple paths have been shown to keep up with Sennin Modo Naruto. HG-Realm outright dodges Sennin Modo Naruto's attacks and Sennin Modo Naruto needed Frog Katas to catch him off guard. Deva-Path reacted to him numerous times. Whether it's Human path or not, they are all going to have the same reactions as Nagato is the one controlling all of them and they all have access to Rinnegan's abilities.



Actually they don't all have the same speed and reflexes. Animal path failed to dodge Rasenshuriken while Tendo was capable of avoiding it from inches away.



> Holistically faster means with all things considered. Sandaime-Raikage may be faster in a foot race, but Sennin Modo Dat-Clone was faster overall. Why because Sennin Modo dat-clone could evade Sandaime-Raikage's attack [at the last second] and land his own before Sandaime can react. It's the same reason why Madara cites Sasuke's special tome offering Sasuke greater predict as the reason he's so fast. It's the same reason Naruto considers himself faster in Sennin Modo than in KCM. etc...



Counter punching a faster opponent doesn't make you faster overall. We've been through this.

And when did KCM Naruto say that Sage Naruto was faster?



> This is nonsense. Base-Jiraiya tanked KN4's attack, which is leagues above's the force of Ei's attacks. Like wise Base-Jiraiya also consistently tanked blows from Tsunade and she didn't hold back considering she brought him close to death in one instance, which is again leagues above Ei.



Don't make me bring back heston. Not even KCM Naruto is physically stronger than Raikage, let alone KN4.  Not that there's any proof that Jiraiya actually tanked KN4's punch.

I also don't remember Jiraiya tanking anything from Tsunade, only him saying she nearly killed him.



> Jiriaya is not some chump in physical strength or durability, even in Base he has a 4.5 in Str, and we've seen a mere poke of his finger send Part I-Naruto flying through the air. And his will is crazy literally willing himself back from the dead after being stabbed by 7 chakra rods, throat torn out, and arm torn off. Base Jiraiya should be able to take a fair amount of hits from Ei and keep going.



That reminds me? Shurado freaking tore his "sage enhanced" arm off, and then later on crushed his throat.

Raikage would fucking murder Jiraiya in close.



> I have doubts whether Ei could even do any substantial damage at all to Sennin Modo Jiriaya, considering his feats of durability/strength in Base and the absolutely massive increase Senjutsu gives someone in these areas as well as it's added regeneration. Hell even Sennin Modo Fukasaku was clashing in CQC with Sennin Modo Naruto, whose physical strength is also leagues above Ei's.



Sage Naruto isn't leagues above Raikage, and if Shurado could do it with his bare hands, you bet your ass Raikage could. 



> But it's not like you can simply evade these waves, as their is sound coming from the waves and as long as your in auditory range your fucked.



Then why weren't Naruto or the other paths fucked?


----------



## Rocky (May 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Ask yourself, if someone as inexperienced with ninjutsu as chuunin lee can use shunshin so effectively as to air juggle gaara, why is it that naruto has to make a kage bunshin to dodge, Sasuke has to deflect Ei's arm, Gai has to summon a turtle, SM Naruto and datclone need to push off of something in order to go higher, cloaked lee needs to push off of Gai in order to kick madara, Sasuke needs to extend snake arms in order to get into the trees, Obito needs to use his gunbai to dodge naruto's charka arm, etc?



 Maybe those air evasions are just inconsistencies. I didn't realize there were so many examples that go against my point. 

That said, I'll still debate this point:



> Rasengans explode when the user wants them to, that's why while Jiraiya's rasengan can burrow into a tree and not dispate at the same time naruto's can blow a wall open.  Ei is not going to be able to push off the rasengan, his limbs are going to get shredded the moment they make contact with the ball.  SM Naruto's rasengan was already cracking Sandaime raikage's arm the *instant it made contact.*



Huh? Then why didn't Naruto blow his Rasengan on Kurama or Ribcage Madara up right away?

Pain was able to contact Jiraiya's Rasengan before he activated the absorption technique. Raikage's shrouded durability will easily protect him while he flips over the Rasengan, or even kicks off it to flicker back to the ground.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> kagebunshin



Interesting... I think evading that chidori with a kagebunshin makes it even more impressive. Considering the small window of opportunity Itachi had there and the backlash of Tsukiyomi + the wound on his leg. 

Although I always wondered how Itachi broke through solid concrete with his back 




> Unless Ei can double jump or opens the 8th gate, he can't jump while airborne.  I don't remember the manga ever implying one could flicker while in midair.



What if he ironclaws the COR and rips it off ?


----------



## ARGUS (May 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 50m starting distance. Jiriaya starts in Sennin Modo. Jiriaya has manga knowledge, which means he knows of Ei's speed. Sennin Modo Jiriaya has 5min prep. People are really arguing that Ei wins, really!.


Knowing and countering are 2 very different things my friend,,,


> Hell even if the match started at 5m, Sennin Modo J-man would almost certainly win, as Ei would start out in R1, go to hit him misjudging his speed in Sennin Modo, and get hit with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Even if Ei did start out by amping his shroud Fukasaku and Shima would use Senpo-Frog-Call stunning him and than J-man hits him with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Thee end.


-Jiraiya is not reacting to A's speed at all even in SM,, since he failed to react to Asura path who is leagues below A in speed,,,
*this*

-The mere fact that u think SM Jiraiya is outspeeding A and even landing a rasengan on him is absurd,,,
-Frog Call requires prep time,,, not to mention A would demolish Jiraiya completely in SM,, as well as tank most of his taijutsu hits if jiraiya even manages to land one oft them,,,,,Jiraiya also doesnt have frog katas,,, which hurts him here,,,


> Ei stands zero chances against Sennin Modo J-man. His only chance against Jiriaya is if Jiriaya starts in Base and Ei starts to the match max-speed, before Jiriaya gets a chance to do anything, which is almost inconceivable because even when up against the Yellow-Flash he allowed Minato time to throw Kunai around, before using his max-speed.


Lets see,,, 
-A is much faster than jiraya,,,
-Was said to have reflexes on par with the 4th hokage,,, 
-Is more durable then Jiraiya seeing that he tanked a chidori blade with little to no damage,,,

-Has offense that will annihilate jiraiyas defenses seeing how he lost his arm against asura who is much weaker than A in terms of physical strength,,,,
-His YN is countered through A's raiton,,,, 
-A's V2 speed which even the sharingan failed to perceive is in no way sensed by jiraiya,, as the latter is getting his head chopped offf,,, also that fact that KCM naruto barely managed to evade him,,,gives me another reason why jiraiya is not reacting to him at all,,,,

-His summons are all getting annihilated by A's offense,,, which has the power to bust through V1/V2 Susanoo,,,
-Yeah A can beat Jiraiya mid diff.,,,,


----------



## Mithos (May 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sort of like how Sasuke _forced_ Itachi into the air with Gōkakyū, and followed up with Chidori.
> 
> ....yet Itachi avoided that.
> 
> Sasuke _avoided_ B in midair as well. I'm sure a shinobi as agile as cloaked Raikage can replicate something that hald-dead & blind Itachi did.



Is it absolutely impossible? No. But is he going to evade everything? Is he going to evade a sea of burning oil while he's in the air? Is he going to evade Frog Call? A Choudama Rasengan, which has a much bigger reach than Bee's attack on Sasuke or Sasuke's chidori? Can he avoid Ma's tongue wrapping around his leg and swinging him down (Remember Orochimaru's tongue was able to grab onto Jiraiya in mid-air)? 

Jiraiya has a variety of ninjutsu, many of which have large AoE. Dodging that in mid-air is not going to be feasible. 



> He cut one of its hands off in Base before that happened. And that thing was kind of big....



That's irrelevant. The point still is, as fast as Ei is he can be hit in mid-air. And the Buddha isn't as agile as Sage Mode Jiraiya.


----------



## Turrin (May 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> His Raiton flicker in either v1 or v2. If you're talking about Jiraiya using Rasengan to Raikage's Erubo, then I agree with that.


I'm talking about Ei's R1 or Base; non-Shunshin speed, I.E. the speed he typically starts battles with.



> That doesn't make Sasuke faster. Slower people are very capable of counter punching faster people.


Than why does the manga consistently say that prediction capabilities whether through sensing or sharingan make someone faster. 



> When I debate Raikage, that's what I'm usually talking about.


Than why did you quote a part of my post that had nothing to do with R1-Shunshin?



> The counter kick on Human isn't a blitz.


So basically your saying any speed demonstrated when the enemy is moving, doesn't count. Okay than all your examples of Ei's speed don't count.



> I'm pretty sure it was made clear that J-man couldn't blitz Human when the path casually reacted to him later on in that fight.


Human path reacted the second time because Jiriaya wasn't attempting to blitz Human-Realm, he was trying to blind-side him with his vision obscured; so Jiriaya likely did not apply any speed enhancements such as chakra to limbs or shunshin. Every time Jiriaya went for a blitz he was successful.



> Actually they don't all have the same speed and reflexes. Animal path failed to dodge Rasenshuriken while Tendo was capable of avoiding it from inches away.


Animal was crouched down on the ground and was the main target of the attack. That's why Animal-Path had more difficulty than the other paths reacting to FRS.



> And when did KCM Naruto say that Sage Naruto was faster?



Viz, Naruto, "This Sage Mode Frog Pair...has a wider danger sensing rang and it's faster"

Frog Pair = Frog Katas



> Not even KCM Naruto is physically stronger than Raikage, let alone KN4


KCM-Naruto has never come even remotely close to demonstrating KN4's strength. 



> Not that there's any proof that Jiraiya actually tanked KN4's punch.


It doesn't have to be a punch. If it's a claw slash or whatever, it's still leagues above Ei.



> I also don't remember Jiraiya tanking anything from Tsunade, only him saying she nearly killed him.


Jiriaya said Tsunade beat him half to death. What do you honestly think she did it with lol.

Though we do see Tsunade sending Jiriaya flying with a uppercut here:
main target 



> That reminds me? Shurado freaking tore his "sage enhanced" arm off, and then later on crushed his throat.
> 
> Raikage would fucking murder Jiraiya in close.


We don't know what Asura did to get Jiriaya's arm, since it was off panel. If he literally ripped it off with physical strength, while at the same time sending Sennin Modo Jiriaya flying through that wall, i'm inclined to think he is physical stronger than Ei. Though he may very well have used other means to do that such as missiles, lazers, serrated blades, etc... 

In the second instance the throat is one of the most tender areas of the body. I have no doubt that if Ei went to rip Base-Jiriaya's throat out he'd do some significant damage as well. However Ei has never once utilized a move like that. So if you banking on Ei doing that specific move and doing it before Jiriaya reaches Sennin Modo, that is pretty wishful thinking argument.



> Sage Naruto isn't leagues above Raikage


You can get back to me when Ei has thrown Boss Sized summons into the stratosphere



> Then why weren't Naruto or the other paths fucked?


Obviously because the Toads can dictate who the Call hurts and who it doesn't, They aren't going to hurt their own teammates. Just like Tayuya, Kabuto, Fuksaku, Shima, Jiriaya, etc... don't get caught in their own Mugen Onsa or Fog Song. We even see Naruto running within the sound waves, and being totally fine. 

As for the pains are concerned we never saw how they reacted to Frog Call as they were off panel and were quite a great distance away.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2014)

On a phone. 

1.) Ei usually begins battles with shunshin of some kind. Against Juugo, Obito, Madara, and Naruto, he used v1 shunshin. Against Minato, he used v2 shunshin.

2.) Sage Mode Jiraiya can most likely take a standard shot from Ei, but I doubt he can take Susano'o cracking chops or Liger Bombs. Even Erubo should do massive damage when looking at what it did to Juugo. 

3.) I think Sage Naruto was calling himself faster than his  Base form. It isn't like he left Kcm to enter Sage Mode. He couldn't even use KCM at that time. Also, KN4's shock wave feat is better than almost anyone, including Tsunade. It's an outlier if you will. 

4.) Ei hasn't lifted anything as impressive as the rhino as Naruto, but Naruto hasn't damaged anything as impressive as Susano'o with his fists. Hell, Jiraiya couldn't even crack Pain's bones. How are you determining that Sages are outright stronger? 

5.) How do the elder sages determine who is affected by frog call. It isn't genjutsu, it's just strong sound. How would they control who here's such sound?


----------



## genii96 (May 14, 2014)

Legendary Pervert said:


> Location: Amegakure
> Distance: 50 m
> Knowledge: Manga
> Mindset: IC.
> ...



beats kakashi and tsunade low diff. Mei looses mid diff. He has a slight advantage over muu,but that can go either way,Ay dosent start in v2,and if juugo and suigetsu could react to v1 ay,sm jiraiya can too,however swamp is useless as ay has raiton armour which nullifies doton,and can dodge or tank several of his attacks,but has only one arm,so he beats ay high diff.
Gaara can fly to avoid his attacks and is a long ranged fighter,he has massive aoe attacks that i doubt j-man can avoud,but i am not sure if amegukere has sandck
onoki wins,his doton techs will prove problematic as his rock golems,jinton ends it.

Kabuto shits with edo tensei and wins comfortably without it


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## Turrin (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) Ei usually begins battles with shunshin of some kind. Against Juugo, Obito, Madara, and Naruto, he used v1 shunshin. Against Minato, he used v2 shunshin.


There is no against Juugo. He started the battle with Taka by doing nothing

Madara, Obito, and KCM-Naruto it's unclear if he just jumped or use Shunshin



> Sage Mode Jiraiya can most likely take a standard shot from Ei, but I doubt he can take Susano'o cracking chops or Liger Bombs. Even Erubo should do massive damage when looking at what it did to Juugo


Once again ignoring that Base-Jiriaya took more powerful hits



> think Sage Naruto was calling himself faster than his Base form. It isn't like he left Kcm to enter Sage Mode. He couldn't even use KCM at that time.


He was clearly referring to KCM, your reaching.



> Also, KN4's shock wave feat is better than almost anyone, including Tsunade. It's an outlier if you will.


How is it an outlier. We saw KN1 Naruto hit Orochimaru and send him flying throw the forest. KN4 having that strength is to be expected.

And no it's not better than Tsunade, she also creates massive shock waves with her blows, or look at Sakura, she may have greater striking power than Tsunade, but it's not leagues apon leagues above her and she created an even more massive shock wave than KN4 with her blow.



> Ei hasn't lifted anything as impressive as the rhino as Naruto, but Naruto hasn't damaged anything as impressive as Susano'o with his fists. Hell, Jiraiya couldn't even crack Pain's bones. How are you determining that Sages are outright stronger?


This is absolutely silly. Your demanding a direct comparison of against the same defense, instead of looking at who has the massively superior strength feat.



> How do the elder sages determine who is affected by frog call. It isn't genjutsu, it's just strong sound. How would they control who here's such sound?


Considering they clearly did, as we saw Naruto not get effected by the waves, I don't think I need to even get into how a magical ability is magical. Though we have seen Dosu control who is effected by his sound waves as well with chakra, so there you go.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Huh? Then why didn't Naruto blow his Rasengan on Kurama or Ribcage Madara up right away?


probably because he didn't think he needed to blow it up until it was too late.  Even after seeing the ribcage naruto wouldn't know right away to detonate it considering it was shredding away at the ribcage and he doesn't know madara is going to immediately level it up further.  



Rocky said:


> Pain was able to contact Jiraiya's Rasengan before he activated the absorption technique. Raikage's shrouded durability will easily protect him while he flips over the Rasengan, or even kicks off it to flicker back to the ground.


Considering Pain hugs the rasengan yet his face, hands and even clothes are completely unscathed by it despite things like *this*, and the fact that nagato can take bee's V2 lariat to the chest without his clothes even getting singed, pain only was able to do that because he was activating preta path.

Plus, unlike Preta, Ei is going to be shoving a hand into the rasengan with enough force to propel him away or out of it, and that's on top of whatever velocity Jiraiya is coming at him with.  He's not going to merely be contacting the surface for an instant.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Interesting... I think evading that chidori with a kagebunshin makes it even more impressive. Considering the small window of opportunity Itachi had there and the backlash of Tsukiyomi + the wound on his leg.
> 
> Although I always wondered how Itachi broke through solid concrete with his back


maybe it is more impressive, maybe it isn't, it's not a shot at itachi, it's just using itachi in that instance as an example.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> What if he ironclaws the COR and rips it off ?


He can try, but he'd end up losing his arm and his life.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is no against Juugo. He started the battle with Taka by doing nothing
> 
> Madara, Obito, and KCM-Naruto it's unclear if he just jumped or use Shunshin



Are you saying the Raikage did not fight Jūgo? 

...and if the Raikage's jumping speed is fast enough to force guards from Edo Madara & KCM Naruto, then his flicker speed it outright ripping J-man in half.



> Once again ignoring that Base-Jiriaya took more powerful hits.



KN4 < KCM. KCM has more chakra enhancing Naruto. It's the more powerful form, and Tsunade most likely wasn't hitting her dear friend as hard as she could.

Tsunade and Naruto apparently nearly killed J-man, so I don't know how you're saying he took shots from them. He could've been left incapacitated. 



> He was clearly referring to KCM, your reaching.



Until you prove it, I'm not reaching for shit. If it's "clear" you shouldn't have any problems.



> How is it an outlier. We saw KN1 Naruto hit Orochimaru and send him flying throw the forest. KN4 having that strength is to be expected.



That's also an outlier, considering that v1 B, Sage Naruto, Jūbito, Jūbidara, and other people that laugh at KN1's strength only sent their foes back a few meters. 



> And no it's not better than Tsunade, she also creates massive shock waves with her blows.



Show me where Tsunade hit the air and created a shockwave. 



> This is absolutely silly. Your demanding a direct comparison of against the same defense, instead of looking at who has the massively superior strength feat.



How is lifting Rhino > Breaking Susano'o? If anything, it's the other way around.



> Considering they clearly did, as we saw Naruto not get effected by the waves, I don't think I need to even get into how a magical ability is magical. Though we have seen Dosu control who is effected by his sound waves as well with chakra, so there you go.



It's magic.  Of course.

Post that Dosu scan, if you would.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> probably because he didn't think he needed to blow it up until it was too late.  Even after seeing the ribcage naruto wouldn't know right away to detonate it considering it was shredding away at the ribcage and he doesn't know madara is going to immediately level it up further.



So there must be some benefit to not detonating it right away. That clearly leaves a window of opportunity for Raikage to push off.   



> Plus, unlike Preta, Ei is going to be shoving a hand into the rasengan with enough force to propel him away or out of it, and that's on top of whatever velocity Jiraiya is coming at him with.  He's not going to merely be contacting the surface for an instant.



That's not going to hurt the guy that survived Mabui's shredder in base with mere scrapes to show for it. RnY Raikage should be able to kick off it without issue.


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## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So there must be some benefit to not detonating it right away. That clearly leaves a window of opportunity for Raikage to push off.


Assuming he can push off, and assuming that jiraiya decides to not detonate it sure.




Rocky said:


> That's not going to hurt the guy that survived Mabui's shredder in base with mere scrapes to show for it. RnY Raikage should be able to kick off it without issue.


Sure it will.  If Naruto's SM rasengan can *crack RnY sandaime's arm* by merely contacting it for an instant, Ei's arm or whatever he uses is going to get shredded when he's shoving a limb into it.

I showed how the preta path example isn't a representation of what would happen to anyone else.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> He can try, but he'd end up losing his arm and his life.




COR killing A


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## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> COR killing A



Lets walk this through.

Chidori can do minor damage to Ei.

Raikiri >/= to chidori

a normal senpou rasengan > raikiri considering rasengan oneshots asura while raikiri can't

A SM COR is thousands of times larger than a normal senpou rasengan.

How would anyone not arrive at the conclusion that COR kills Ei when a rasengan thousands of times smaller would deal a decent amount of damage to him?

If the only way you can support your argument is by posting a reaction gif in response to the opposing claim, then it shows just how terrible your own arguments are.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sure it will.  If Naruto's SM rasengan can *crack RnY sandaime's arm* by merely contacting it for an instant, Ei's arm or whatever he uses is going to get shredded when he's shoving a limb into it.



That's a result of his Edo Body. Tell me, did Temari seriously injure the Sandaime Raikage? 'Cause he was sliced and cracked all over.

The answer is no, by her own admission.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's a result of his Edo Body. Tell me, did Temari seriously injure the Sandaime Raikage? 'Cause he was sliced and cracked all over.
> 
> The answer is no, by her own admission.


Wait, i didn't say that cracking = serious injury, I only said that cracking caused by an attack = damage/injury.  

Temari also did injure him, I'm not sure if serious, but he did have to regenerate.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Lets walk this through.
> 
> Chidori can do minor damage to Ei.
> 
> ...



Raikiri went through Asura like butter. It didn't oneshot him because Asura can function with a hole in its chest, not because Raikiri couldn't pierce its durability.
First get your facts straight.

Also thousand times larger doesn't mean thousand times stronger. We've gone through this many times. COR will damage a bigger area, but the damage it will inflict on the surface it comes in contact with will not be 1000 times greater than a regular rasengan. Thats not how you scale it. 

Also using the Chidori example isn't exactly the best way to asess how much damage a rasengan would inflict on Raikage because they are different types of attacks Chidori has greater piercing power while rasengan has bigger AOE.

And that reaction gif is awesome


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikiri went through Asura like butter. It didn't oneshot him because Asura can function with a hole in its chest, not because Raikiri couldn't pierce its durability.
> First get your facts straight.


*you get your facts straight,* raikiri didn't even hit his chest, and it didn't go through asura like butter, if it did deva would have been dead.  Also if Asura can function with holes in his chest, then that would have also applied to him taking a rasengan, and thus since  the rasengan killed him in spite of that, asura is more powerful.

We don't even have to use asura as an example, we can use the fact that base naruto's rasengan = sasuke's chidori, which would lead you to conclude that a senpou rasengan >> chidori by virtue of senjutsu massively increasing the power of ninjutsu or the *sheer power of a senpou rasengan.* or how much more powerful *a senpou chidori is* compared to chidori.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also thousand times larger doesn't mean thousand times stronger. We've gone through this many times. COR will damage a bigger area, but the damage it will inflict on the surface it comes in contact with will not be 1000 times greater than a regular rasengan. Thats not how you scale it.


Except when it explodes, its damage will be 1000s of times stronger.  Plus, even if it didn't explode, Ei getting hit by COR would be the equivalent of getting grinded by a rasengan on every part of Ei's body which would kill him considering the damage that chidori did to him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also using the Chidori example isn't exactly the best way to asess how much damage a rasengan would inflict on Raikage because they are different types of attacks Chidori has greater piercing power while rasengan has bigger AOE.


irrelevant if they might differ in the way they damage the opponent, chidori collides with a rasengan and both techniques cancel each other out, thus ei is going to sustain the same amount of damage from a base rasengan than he takes from chidori, it will just be in a different way.  

then there's the fact that senpou rasengan damaged Ei's father through his cloak.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Temari also did injure him, I'm not sure if serious, but he did have to regenerate.



Then he would've been sealed. 

Listen, human arms don't "crack" like Sandaime's arm did. I'm not attributing that to Rasengan, but more the fact that his body is composed of dust. Just flip the page, and you'll see Sandaime's face in pieces. Is that because of Nukite, which hit him in the chest? 

When Obito was hit in the arm with Rasengan, he didn't "crack." It was _bruised._ Edo Tensei bodies tend to crack when they're struck, even if the attack didn't do damage. Most of them have cracks naturally throughout their bodies. It isn't because of damage..


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## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Then he would've been sealed.


Why?  Simply injuring an edo doesn't make them sealable, even inflicting fatal damage on them doesn't necessarily mean they are sealable.



Rocky said:


> Listen, human arms don't "crack" like Sandaime's arm did. I'm not attributing that to Rasengan, but more the fact that his body is composed of dust. Just flip the page, and you'll see Sandaime's face in pieces. Is that because of Nukite, which hit him in the chest?
> 
> When Obito was hit in the arm with Rasengan, he didn't "crack." It was _bruised._ Edo Tensei bodies tend to crack when they're struck, even if the attack didn't do damage. Most of them have cracks naturally throughout their bodies. It isn't because of damage..


Sure living humans don't crack, but it doesn't mean that an attack that cracks an edo doesn't damage a human, cracks are still the way in which edos show they are damaged, that's why there are cracks on sandaime's arm that originate from the rasengan's point of contact and no where else.  Edos get sliced in half, yet don't bleed, and they emit papers when damaged, yet does that mean since humans don't emit papers and do bleed that the human version wouldn't have sustained damage in those situations?  Obviously not. 

cracks from attacks are the edo tensei version of a bruise or scuffs, not serious damage, but damage that has to be represented in some way.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *you get your facts straight,* raikiri didn't even hit his chest, and it didn't go through asura like butter, if it did deva would have been dead.  Also if Asura can function with holes in his chest, then that would have also applied to him taking a rasengan, and thus since  the rasengan killed him in spite of that, asura is more powerful.


Kakashi's hand is inside Asura : *you get your facts straight,*

Rasengan didn't blew a hole in his chest, it obliterated his upper body. 
Asura is a robot. You have to destroy him to cease his functioning.

If Onoki hit him with a jinton of Raikiri's size, it would create a hole of the same size but Asura would still continue functioning. That doesn't mean Jinton isn't more damaging than Rasengan. 
Bigger AOE =/= more damage. We debated this over and over again, you should have learned by now.




> We don't even have to use asura as an example, we can use the fact that base naruto's rasengan = sasuke's chidori, which would lead you to conclude that a senpou rasengan >> chidori by virtue of senjutsu massively increasing the power of ninjutsu or the *sheer power of a senpou rasengan.* or how much more powerful *a senpou chidori is* compared to chidori.


Their power output can be the same, that is the reason why each technique cancel each other out. But they are completely different in nature.

I am not arguing whether SM COR is stronger than Chidori or not. It obviously is. I am simply against the bullshit notion that it is 1000 times more powerful. 



> Except when it explodes, its damage will be 1000s of times stronger.


Like I said, in terms of the area it effects, that might be correct. The amount of damage it'll inflict on A ? No it won't because there is no chance the whole explosion can hit A.



> Plus, even if it didn't explode, Ei getting hit by COR would be the equivalent of getting grinded by a rasengan on every part of Ei's body which would kill him considering the damage that chidori did to him.


Again, Chidori concentrates its damage on a much smaller point, so it deals more damage to the surface area it comes in contact with. That is the whole logic behind Sandaime's 1 finger Nikute being more piercing than his 3 finger version. They are the exact same thing, the only difference is one has a smaller point of focus.

Naruto's KCM rasengan did superficial damage on Obito's arm. Kakashi punched a hole through his chest with Raikiri.




> irrelevant if they might differ in the way they damage the opponent, chidori collides with a rasengan and both techniques cancel each other out, thus ei is going to sustain the same amount of damage from a base rasengan than he takes from chidori, it will just be in a different way.


I adressed this above.



> Then there's the fact that senpou rasengan damaged Ei's father through his cloak.


It peeled off his skin you mean.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Why?  Simply injuring an edo doesn't make them sealable, even inflicting fatal damage on them doesn't necessarily mean they are sealable.



Then what makes them seal-able?



> Cracks from attacks are the edo tensei version of a bruise or scuffs, not serious damage, but damage that has to be represented in some way.



I can work with this.

Naruto bruised or scuffed up Sandaime's arm, okay. Obito was bruised by Rasengan too, but he isn't as durable as the Raikage is. So if we assume that Sandaime took less damage than Obito, then he wasn't really injured, was he?

Now, Ē is less durable than his father, but more durable than Obito, so the damage done to him would be less than that of what happened to Obito. Do you really think that momentarily touching Jiraiya's Rasengan would wound Ē to the point where it would effect him in battle?


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Then what makes them seal-able?


they take enough damage that they can't do anything while reforming.




Rocky said:


> I can work with this.
> 
> Naruto bruised or scuffed up Sandaime's arm, okay. Obito was bruised by Rasengan too, but he isn't as durable as the Raikage is. So if we assume that Sandaime took less damage than Obito, then he wasn't really injured, was he?


*but then this...*  Which means unless Juubito is way less durable than rinnegan obito, obito's arm took internal damage *which is why it took so long for obito to regenerate from it.* 




Rocky said:


> Now, Ē is less durable than his father, but more durable than Obito, so the damage done to him would be less than that of what happened to Obito. Do you really think that momentarily touching Jiraiya's Rasengan would wound Ē to the point where it would effect him in battle?


Again, it's not momentarily touching.  Momentarily touching would be preta path.  What Ei will be doing is shoving one of his limbs into the rasengan with enough speed/force to propel Ei's body away from it.   

When chidori clashes with rasengan, both the rasengan and the chidori are canceled out, it's the same thing here except the raiton around Ei's limb gets canceled while the rasengan doesn't.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> they take enough damage that they can't do anything while reforming.


 
So are you saying it's based off resiliency? 



> *but then this...*



We called that an outlier in a previous debate. Animal Path ate two of those. Based on the damage it did to Obito there (as well as the ground), Animal Path should've been propelled out the front of Gamabunta's mouth in fragments. 



> Again, it's not momentarily touching.  Momentarily touching would be preta path.  What Ei will be doing is shoving one of his limbs into the rasengan with enough speed/force to propel Ei's body away from it.



He can use it for footing. While it shreds at the bottom of his feet, he can flicker off of it. As long as it doesn't explode in his face, he should be fine.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi's hand is inside Asura : *but then this...*


Sure, but that's not what you asserted, you asserted that raikiri went through asura like butter.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rasengan didn't blew a hole in his chest, it obliterated his upper body.
> Asura is a robot. You have to destroy him to cease his functioning.


Naruto didn't destroy asura, his upper and lower body still exists, by your logic asura should still be able to function.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *If Onoki hit him with a jinton of Raikiri's size, it would create a hole of the same size but Asura would still continue functioning. *That doesn't mean Jinton isn't more damaging than Rasengan.
> Bigger AOE =/= more damage. We debated this over and over again, you should have learned by now.


What do you base the bolded on?  Where is this hole that raikiri supposedly put in asura?  Finally, sure it doesn't mean jinton is more damaging than rasengan, but jinton was never the thing that's compared to rasengan.  Chidori is the rasengan's equal, and raikiri failed to kill asura when a senpou rasengan succeeded.  Thus since those attacks are directly comparable the senpou rasengan > raikiri.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Their power output can be the same, that is the reason why each technique cancel each other out. But they are completely different in nature.


Completely different in nature doesn't mean they don't inflict the same damage on a target, all it means is that they'd inflict their damage in a different way.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not arguing whether SM COR is stronger than Chidori or not. It obviously is. I am simply against the bullshit notion that it is 1000 times more powerful.


 we're not even talking about senpou COR right now, we are comparing a normal senpou rasengan to chidori, and only from there do we go to senpou COR.  How in the world isn't SM COR thousands of times more powerful than chidori if it's thousands of times larger than a senpou rasengan?  The power of the technique is completely blind to the mechanics of the technique or how it goes about doing its damage.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, in terms of the area it effects, that might be correct. The amount of damage it'll inflict on A ? No it won't because there is no chance the whole explosion can hit A.


The whole explosion doesn't have to hit Ei in order for it to take Ei out....  unlike the grinding argument which is blind to the volume of the SM COR, the explosion argument isn't since volume is what determines the size and potency of the explosion while only the surface area matters in the grinding argument.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, Chidori concentrates its damage on a much smaller point, so it deals more damage to the surface area it comes in contact with. That is the whole logic behind Sandaime's 1 finger Nikute being more piercing than his 3 finger version. They are the exact same thing, the only difference is one has a smaller point of focus.


Sure, thus Ei is going to take the same damage as he does from chidori just spread out over the AoE of the base rasengan's point of contact.  Now swap that base rasengan with a much more powerful senpou rasengan, and Ei takes much more damage than he would take from chidori, and now fill Ei's entire front portion of his body with senpou rasengans and he dies.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto's KCM rasengan did superficial damage on Obito's arm. Kakashi punched a hole through his chest with Raikiri.


Kakashi needed to channel Raikiri through the tip of his kunai in order to accomplish that, and naruto's senpou rasengan blew a hole in a much more durable obito.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It peeled off his skin you mean.


isn't that a form of damaging?


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So are you saying it's based off resiliency?


probably a little of that and how badly it mutilates the body.




Rocky said:


> We called that an outlier in a previous debate. Animal Path ate two of those. Based on the damage it did to Obito there (as well as the ground), Animal Path should've been propelled out the front of Gamabunta's mouth in fragments.


We called it a visual outlier in a previous debate since rasengan deals internal damage, the power of that rasengan wasn't an outlier.  Kishi's not going to show a rasengan turning a human into chunks of meat and organs that's why only edos/asura and people like juubito who can take them and regenerate from them are going to show external mutilation.  *Just look at what little external damage the rasengan did to deva path* and he was killed by the rasengan.  Kabuto, animal and naraka path, Obito, they all are humans and show hardly any signs of external damage from the point of contact, yet they are either killed or heavily damaged despite having massive regen and durability.



Rocky said:


> He can use it for footing. While it shreds at the bottom of his feet, he can flicker off of it. As long as it doesn't explode in his face, he should be fine.


When has anyone been implied to be capable of standing on something like a rasengan and flickering off of it?  How can he even effectively concentrate chakra to his feet for the flicker while the rasengan shreds the bottom of his feet?  The rasengan isn't even a solid sphere, it's a sphere of rapidly moving chakra, how can anyone flicker off of such an unstable surface?  And like i said before, the flicker is physical movement which is why it partly depends on the physicality of the ninja and why we see explosions when particularly powerful ones are used.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sure, but that's not what you asserted, you asserted that raikiri went through asura like butter.



He shoved his hand through its chest, what else does he have to do ? 



> Naruto didn't destroy asura, his upper and lower body still exists, by your logic asura should still be able to function.


He pretty much did. 1
His arms are flying around, his whole back is open and rasengan is being pushed into all the machinery. Rasengan has greater AOE, so it caused more destruction through out its body. Which stopped it from functioning.



> What do you base the bolded on?


Because it is a robot and it doesn't have vital organs ? 



> Where is this hole that raikiri supposedly put in asura?


Occupied by Kakashi's hand.



> Finally, sure it doesn't mean jinton is more damaging than rasengan, but jinton was never the thing that's compared to rasengan.  Chidori is the rasengan's equal, and raikiri failed to kill asura when a senpou rasengan succeeded.  Thus since those attacks are directly comparable the senpou rasengan > raikiri.



I already explained it, Asura isn't a regular human. A raikiri through the heart would kill a man under normal circumstances but Asura doesn't have vital organs, It is machinery.

I guess you haven't seen Terminator ? Or any zombie movies ? 




> Completely different in nature doesn't mean they don't inflict the same damage on a target, all it means is that they'd inflict their damage in a different way.


They surely don't.
Let me explain it for the last time.

Sandaime Raikage's armor was pierced by the single finger Nikute. The same Nikute which has comparable AOE damage to Raikiri. The same AOE damage that wasn't enough to kill Asura realm.
Asura realm was destroyed by a rasengan. Sandaime Raikage tanked FRS with no visible injuries.




> we're not eve talking about senpou COR right now, we are comparing a normal senpou rasengan to chidori, and only from there do we go to senpou COR.  How in the world isn't SM COR thousands of times more powerful than chidori if it's thousands of times larger than a senpou rasengan?  The power of the technique is completely blind to the mechanics of the technique or how it goes about doing its damage.


I thought I already adressed the size argument. Bigger AOE =/= Bigger damage. Bigger AOE = Bigger AOE damage.

Just refer to Sasuke's sword vs Naruto's YRS. YRS's size is 1000x bigger than Sasuke's sword. The destruction it causes is 100000000000000000000x times bigger. Yet Sasuke's sword did a better job @ slicing Madara in half.



> The whole explosion doesn't have to hit Ei in order for it to take Ei out....  unlike the grinding argument which is blind to the volume of the SM COR, the explosion argument isn't since volume is what determines the size and potency of the explosion while only the surface area matters in the grinding argument.



As far as I know Rasengan's real damage comes from the initial contact. Its explosive damage doesn't have much feats. Its mostly enviromental damage and doesn't reflect much on the target.

Can you show me some scans that we can go by ? 



> Sure, thus Ei is going to take the same damage as he does from chidori just spread out over the AoE of the base rasengan's point of contact.  Now swap that base rasengan with a much more powerful senpou rasengan, and Ei takes much more damage than he would take from chidori, and now fill Ei's entire front portion of his body with senpou rasengans and he dies.



And like I already said it doesn't work like that.

If you spread out chidori's damage over to a bigger area, the penetration it will cause on A's skin will be less than an inch. Might not even damage him, considering the big difference that was mentioned between the different versions of Nukite.

So the surface damage rasengan causes will be much much less than Chidori. 



> Kakashi needed to channel Raikiri through the tip of his kunai in order to accomplish that, and naruto's senpou rasengan blew a hole in a much more durable obito.



If simply running raiton through a kunai made it more penetrative than Raikiri, then Raikiri would be the most pointless technique in the world.

Actually I'll say it differently.
Kakashi blew a hole in Obito's chest with something weaker than Raikiri.



> isn't that a form of damaging?


,
I guess


----------



## Turrin (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Are you saying the Raikage did not fight Jūgo?


No I'm saying he fought Taka. Though even if we count Juugo as an independent fight he didn't use Shunshin first.



> .and if the Raikage's jumping speed is fast enough to force guards from Edo Madara & KCM Naruto, then his flicker speed it outright ripping J-man in half.


They were airborn, what do you expect them to do other than guard.



> KN4 < KCM. KCM has more chakra enhancing Naruto. It's the more powerful form,


KCM could probably recreate KN4/KN1's feats if it utilized large enough - strong enough chakra claws, but that's irrelevant to what were discussing here. KN1/KN4 has far superior strength than KCM does with it's standard strength.



> and Tsunade most likely wasn't hitting her dear friend as hard as she could.


The fact that she brought him close to death, begs to differ.



> Tsunade and Naruto apparently nearly killed J-man, so I don't know how you're saying he took shots from them. He could've been left incapacitated.


Nearly means he took the shot and survived. Considering Ei doesn't come even remotely close to Tsunade and KN4, clearly Base-Jiriaya can survive Ei's hits much more gracefully.



> Until you prove it, I'm not reaching for shit. If it's "clear" you shouldn't have any problems.


You really think Kishi is wasting time telling use Sennin Modo is faster than Base lol.



> hat's also an outlier, considering that v1 B, Sage Naruto, Jūbito, Jūbidara, and other people that laugh at KN1's strength only sent their foes back a few meters.


So basically every single example that contradicts your stand point is an outlier. k-gotcha.



> Show me where Tsunade hit the air and created a shockwave.


We don't even know if KN4 hit the air, as it was off paneled.



> How is lifting Rhino > Breaking Susano'o? If anything, it's the other way around.


How is it not?



> It's magic.  Of course.


Considering were talking about Magical Ninjas, yes Of course.



> Post that Dosu scan, if you would.[


1


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No I'm saying he fought Taka. Though even if we count Juugo as an independent fight he didn't use Shunshin first.



Then what did he use first?



> They were airborn, what do you expect them to do other than guard.



Duck, counter punch, etc. Naruto and Itachi did much more than block when they engaged in the air.



> KCM could probably recreate KN4/KN1's feats if it utilized large enough - strong enough chakra claws, but that's irrelevant to what were discussing here. KN1/KN4 has far superior strength than KCM does with it's standard strength.



Now I must ask, exactly which of KN4's feats are you basing that on.



> The fact that she brought him close to death, begs to differ.



You can't even prove she used her chakra enhanced strength. 



> Nearly means he took the shot and survived. Considering Ei doesn't come even remotely close to Tsunade and KN4, clearly Base-Jiriaya can survive Ei's hits much more gracefully.



Orochimaru temporarily incapacitated base Jiraiya with his neck strength. 



> You really think Kishi is wasting time telling use Sennin Modo is faster than Base lol.



Yes.



> So basically every single example that contradicts your stand point is an outlier. k-gotcha.



Tell me then, do you think KN1 is stronger than B, Jubidara, Raikage, etc.?



> We don't even know if KN4 hit the air, as it was off paneled.



Was it? I didn't think it was. What are you referring to?



> How is it not?



Look at the striking feats of the sages. If Jiraiya was strong enough to crack Susano'o, would Human Path really be able to tank a kick to the face, or _catch his punch?_



> 1



I'm pretty sure that has something to do with his special arm...


----------



## Turrin (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Then what did he use first?


Regular speed which Juugo blocked



> Duck, counter punch, etc. Naruto and Itachi did much more than block when they engaged in the air.


Madara and Naruto simply didn't know how strong Ei was, so they thought guarding was enough. Beyond that we can play the why didn't they use X-Technique game with every battle in the manga and it's not going to prove anything. I mean why didn't Naruto do more against Han, is Han as fast as Ei:
2

Kishimoto makes stylistic choices week by week.



> Now I must ask, exactly which of KN4's feats are you basing that on.


The shock-waves with chakra claw slash. The sending chakra arms through the ground like butter. KN1 sending Orochimaru flying through the forest. Etc...



> You can't even prove she used her chakra enhanced strength.


Tsunade was using chakra enhanced strength against Genin-Naruto. She brought Jiriaya close to death, so she wasn't pulling punches. And without chakra enhanced strength she probably isn't bringing Jiriaya close to death as he has a 4.5 in strength in Base, and should be perfectly capable of handling himself against her none-chakra enhanced strength. 



> Orochimaru temporarily incapacitated base Jiraiya with his neck strength.


This never happened. And Jiriaya was insanely weakened by poison during that battle, so using anything from that battle is pretty weak



> Yes.


So your being proactively dishonest.



> Tell me then, do you think KN1 is stronger than B, Jubidara, Raikage, etc.?


I think B and Juubidara don't use chakra claw attacks; or at least we haven't seen them do so. Is he stronger than Ei, yes he is, his feats blow Ei's away. 



> Was it? I didn't think it was. What are you referring to?


It was off panel. Go back and re-read it. He slashes his claw, than we don't see where it ends up just a shock-wave.



> Look at the striking feats of the sages. If Jiraiya was strong enough to crack Susano'o, would Human Path really be able to tank a kick to the face, or catch his punch?


Yes considering that the Pain Path's durability is nonsensical. Deva Path tanked a KN6 Bijuu Bomb and tanked being smashed into a sheer cliff by ST, which created a massive shock-wave far beyond anything we've seen from Ei. In-fact Jiriaya's hit sent human path flying and smashing through a rock-wall, compare this to Juugo and Suigetsu being able to intercept Ei's attacks. Or even Madara who has no especially great strength feats to speak of. B outright out muscled Ei and Sasuke/Itachi were not getting over powered by his strikes. We actually see Base-Yugito force B back. So on and so forth.



> I'm pretty sure that has something to do with his special arm...


His special arm simply produces the sound. It's right there in black and white that Dosu uses his chakra to control the sound. Like-wise it's fact that they were able to make it so Naruto was un-effected by it.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Regular speed which Juugo blocked



That was shunshin. It is consistent with his other flickers.



> I mean why didn't Naruto do more against Han, is Han as fast as Ei:
> 2



He was blinded and relying on sensing.



> The shock-waves with chakra claw slash. The sending chakra arms through the ground like butter. KN1 sending Orochimaru flying through the forest. Etc...



None of that is better than breaking Susano'o.



> Tsunade was using chakra enhanced strength against Genin-Naruto. She brought Jiriaya close to death, so she wasn't pulling punches. And without chakra enhanced strength she probably isn't bringing Jiriaya close to death as he has a 4.5 in strength in Base, and should be perfectly capable of handling himself against her none-chakra enhanced strength.



She never hit Naruto with her chakra enhanced strength, because he'd be dead.

Furthermore, bringing Jiraiya close to death does not prove that she hit him with chakra enhanced strength. If she had...he'd be dead.



> This never happened. And Jiriaya was insanely weakened by poison during that battle, so using anything from that battle is pretty weak.




_
Yes it did_, and drugs wouldn't effect Jiraiya's durability. 



> So your being proactively dishonest.



No.



> I think B and Juubidara don't use chakra claw attacks; or at least we haven't seen them do so.



Neither does Raikage.



> Yes considering that the Pain Path's durability is nonsensical. Deva Path tanked a KN6 Bijuu Bomb and tanked being smashed into a sheer cliff by ST, which created a massive shock-wave far beyond anything we've seen from Ei. In-fact Jiriaya's hit sent human path flying and smashing through a rock-wall, compare this to Juugo and Suigetsu being able to intercept Ei's attacks. Or even Madara who has no especially great strength feats to speak of. B outright out muscled Ei and Sasuke/Itachi were not getting over powered by his strikes. We actually see Base-Yugito force B back. So on and so forth.



We've seen Raikage crack Susano'o, so unless you want to seriously claim that Human Path > Susano'o, then concede the point. 

Also, Ē punched a hole through Jugo and ripped Suigetsu's arms off.



> His special arm simply produces the sound. It's right there in black and white that Dosu uses his chakra to control the sound. Like-wise it's fact that they were able to make it so Naruto was un-effected by it.



So if they're using chakra to guide the sound, Ē will dodge that.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He shoved his hand through its chest, what else does he have to do ?


um.... go out the other side and hit deva path considering that was kakashi's blatantly stated goal.  Raikiri and chidori does that to pretty much everyone else it hits, yet It failed to do that as deva path was completely unscathed after the fact, thus your initial assertion that it went through asura like butter is false.  Not only that, but we see kakashi's hand thrust into asura for three panels and it still hasn't come out the otherside.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He pretty much did.
> _
> Yes it did_
> His arms are flying around, his whole back is open and rasengan is being pushed into all the machinery. Rasengan has greater AOE, so it caused more destruction through out its body. Which stopped it from functioning.


Arms flying around and back open does not mean it destroyed him, destroying him would leave nothing there, or it would leave asura in small pieces, there's still a main body present post rasengan.  Rasengan was able to cause more destruction throughout the body because it's the stronger jutsu, if it was the same power as raikiri, it would have caused the same amount of destruction as raikiri spread over a larger AoE, not more destruction.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because it is a robot and it doesn't have vital organs ?


By that logic, it would have continued functioning after being hit by rasengan.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Occupied by Kakashi's hand.


Which means that it didn't even go through asura, and its full force was exerted on asura's body, yet it didn't defeat it, thus it's weaker than the senpou rasengan.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already explained it, Asura isn't a regular human. A raikiri through the heart would kill a man under normal circumstances but Asura doesn't have vital organs, It is machinery.
> 
> I guess you haven't seen Terminator ? Or any zombie movies ?


By what evidence do you assert that it's because of asura's physiology that it can live after taking a raikiri, yet not after taking a rasengan?  If the only evidence you have to support that assertion is asura taking raikiri and dieing to a rasengan, then that's just circular reasoning.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> They surely don't.
> Let me explain it for the last time.
> 
> Sandaime Raikage's armor was pierced by the single finger Nikute. The same Nikute which has comparable AOE damage to Raikiri. The same AOE damage that wasn't enough to kill Asura realm.
> Asura realm was destroyed by a rasengan. Sandaime Raikage tanked FRS with no visible injuries.


  unless you argue that raikiri is as powerful as the 1 finger nukite, or would pierce Sandaime raikage as well then your post is worthless.  BTW raikiri doesn't have the same AoE as the 1 finger, it has less AoE than even the 4 finger nukite, but even assuming it did, so what?  It only pierces Sandaime if it's as powerful as the 1 finger nukite.  If it doesn't pierce him then bringing up sandaime taking a FRS with just minor cuts means nothing.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I thought I already adressed the size argument. Bigger AOE =/= Bigger damage. Bigger AOE = Bigger AOE damage.


first you were talking about POWER of the techniques, now you are talking about damage.  Bigger AoE doesn't necessarily mean bigger damage sure, but bigger technique with all things equal = more power.  

Power is irrelevant to the target.  raikiri could probably damage V1 alliance member more than tenpen chii, but it doesn't mean raikiri is more powerful.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Just refer to Sasuke's sword vs Naruto's YRS. YRS's size is 1000x bigger than Sasuke's sword. The destruction it causes is 100000000000000000000x times bigger. Yet Sasuke's sword did a better job @ slicing Madara in half.


if sasuke's sword slices madara in half while naruto's YRS doesn't, then it means sasuke's sword inflicts pound for pound more damage on madara than YRS did across the AoE of both techs.  Does that mean the same is true for raikiri/chidori and rasengan?  Obviously not, and we know this since the manga blatantly portrays them as techniques of equal power and when they clash they are equals.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> As far as I know Rasengan's real damage comes from the initial contact. Its explosive damage doesn't have much feats. Its mostly enviromental damage and doesn't reflect much on the target.
> 
> Can you show me some scans that we can go by ?


it's what blew up obito's arm when he fought naruto and blew off obito's arm when he fought minato.  

It's what sent both naruto and sasuke flying when they clashed their techniques, the force that blew open the back of the water container, the force that blew up the ground when juubito hit it, the force that blew sandaime's arm back into him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And like I already said it doesn't work like that.
> 
> If you spread out chidori's damage over to a bigger area, the penetration it will cause on A's skin will be less than an inch. Might not even damage him, considering the big difference that was mentioned between the different versions of Nukite.


I don't see a problem here if it penetrates his skin less than an inch.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So the surface damage rasengan causes will be much much less than Chidori.


It won't cause much much less damage if the surface area isn't much much less.  If chidori did much more damage on a smaller AoE, then why doesn't chidori penetrate through a rasengan when both clash? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If simply running raiton through a kunai made it more penetrative than Raikiri, then Raikiri would be the most pointless technique in the world.


um, it's not simply running raw raiton through a kunai, it's running raikiri through the kunai...  It's like saying raikiri is simply running raiton around a person's hand.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually I'll say it differently.
> Kakashi blew a hole in Obito's chest with something weaker than Raikiri.


Why in the world would kakashi use something weaker than raikiri?  *We're explicitly shown that kakashi uses raikiri and not simple chakra flow on his kunai.*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I guess


yeah, so if a senpou rasengan is strong enough to peel off sandaime raikage's skin, then it's going to to much more to the far less durable Ei.  

Even with all of what you've stated, a senpou chou oodama rasengan absolutely kills Ei.  Senpou rasengan >> rasengan = chidori which would more than make up for the lesser penetrating power (if that even is the case).  The thing that really kills ei is the size of the rasengan.  The big rasengan is going to last much longer than a normal-sized rasengan, since unlike a normal rasengan, only a small portion of its AoE is being used up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Even with all of what you've stated, a senpou chou oodama rasengan absolutely kills Ei.  Senpou rasengan >> rasengan = chidori which would more than make up for the lesser penetrating power (if that even is the case).  The thing that really kills ei is the size of the rasengan.  The big rasengan is going to last much longer than a normal-sized rasengan, since unlike a normal rasengan, only a small portion of its AoE is being used up.



If thats the conclusion you've arrived after all this talk, then debating this any further is meaningless.
I'd have hoped you'd at least consider the possibility that COR wasn't 1000 more powerful than a rasengan and rasengan isn't as damaging as chidori relative to the area that they come in contact with.

Last but not least, Sasuke's sword pierced Madara.
YRS wasn't able to penetrate him to that extend.

YRS is 100x stronger than FRS.
FRS is 50x stronger than COR

The same sword that went through Madara like butter bounced off A's neck when it was induced with raiton.


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## Turrin (May 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That was shunshin. It is consistent with his other flickers.


Than his Shunshin is not very impressive as Juugo reacted to and blocked it.



> He was blinded and relying on sensing.


Characters using sensing can still dodge or counter attack. We've seen it many times. 



> None of that is better than breaking Susano'o.


I don't really find breaking the lowest level of Susano'o that impressive. And I should also remind you that Ei only accomplished that with his max-speed strikes, nothing less. 



> She never hit Naruto with her chakra enhanced strength, because he'd be dead.


She did hit him, but just used one finger, as per the conditions of their fight.



> Furthermore, bringing Jiraiya close to death does not prove that she hit him with chakra enhanced strength. If she had...he'd be dead.


Her normal physical strength wouldn't be enough to do anything to Jiriaya. Kabuto tanked it when she used Rajinsho on him and he is no where close to as physically strong as Jiriaya.



> Yes it did,


That wasn't his neck, it was a tongue enhanced with a jutsu and it smashed Jiriaya from a great height into the ground. If anything that's testament of Jiriaya's durability. Especially considering he was weakened heavily by poison.



> and drugs wouldn't effect Jiraiya's durability.


Yes it did:
*even worse situation.*



> Neither does Raikage.


They have the capability to do so. Raikage doesn't. 



> We've seen Raikage crack Susano'o, so unless you want to seriously claim that Human Path > Susano'o, then concede the point.


Unless you seriously want to claim that Ei's blows are tougher than KN6 Bijuu-Bomb, then concede the point.



> Also, Ē punched a hole through Jugo and ripped Suigetsu's arms off.


So what, they blocked and survived. People blocked and survived B's strikes who is stronger than Ei. People have blocked and survived KCM-Naruto's strikes whose been shown as comparable to Ei. People like Madara who have no amazing strength feats have blocked Ei's strikes just fine. 

Ei's strikes only have that dangerous Mini-Susano'o breaking power when Ei is at Max-Speed and that's due to Ei hitting someone with greater speed; not becuase his physical strength is suddenly even remotely close to the same dimension of characters like SM users. Though even at Max-Speed he hasn't shown anything that necessarily puts him about SM users in striking force. Using Pains to downgrade the strike force of SM users bellow Ei is disingenuous and you know it , considering Kishi selectively allowed Pain Paths to magically tank shit, like a Bijuu Bomb, when they couldn't tank Rasengan at other times.



> So if they're using chakra to guide the sound, Ē will dodge that


How the hell does he see the chakra. He's not a sensor, he doesn't have a Dojutsu.


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## J★J♥ (May 16, 2014)

Loses to Onoki and Muu. Stomps rest except Kabuto which he can win against if ET is restricted.


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## Rocky (May 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Than his Shunshin is not very impressive as Juugo reacted to and blocked it.



There's nothing wrong with Curse Seal Jūgo being able to block it (barley). That's a good speed feat for Curse Seal Jūgo. 



> Characters using sensing can still dodge or counter attack. We've seen it many times.



Which characters could avoid and counter-attack relying solely on malice sensing?



> And I should also remind you that Ei only accomplished that with his max-speed strikes, nothing less.



He was actually standing still when he broke it. _Both_ times.



> She did hit him, but just used one finger, as per the conditions of their fight.



All it did was knock his headband off. How can you prove she enhanced that with chakra? 



> Her normal physical strength wouldn't be enough to do anything to Jiriaya. Kabuto tanked it when she used Rajinsho on him and he is no where close to as physically strong as Jiriaya.



He had cut her muscles and _negated_ her strength.



> That wasn't his neck, it was a tongue enhanced with a jutsu and it smashed Jiriaya from a great height into the ground. If anything that's testament of Jiriaya's durability. Especially considering he was weakened heavily by poison.



Orochimaru grabbed J-man with his tongue and smashed his ass into the ground, temporarily taking him out of the fight. 

Raikage's ground-smashes crack Susano'o.



> Yes it did:
> _calls them forward_



Where does it say Jiraiya's _durability_ is affected? 

You could also get a scan closer to the fight, instead of using one right after he was drugged. 



> They have the capability to do so. Raikage doesn't.



B has the capability to use chakra arms eh? 



> Unless you seriously want to claim that Ei's blows are tougher than KN6 Bijuu-Bomb, then concede the point.



When did Human Path tank Bijūdama?

Not even Tendo could do that. He was only in the area of effect, not hit directly. 



> So what, they blocked and survived. People blocked and survived B's strikes who is stronger than Ei. People have blocked and survived KCM-Naruto's strikes whose been shown as comparable to Ei. People like Madara who have no amazing strength feats have blocked Ei's strikes just fine.



Suigetsu is a logia, Jūgo didn't care about the hole in him, KCM Naruto has protective cloak, and Madara is an immortal zombie. 



> Ei's strikes only have that dangerous Mini-Susano'o breaking power when Ei is at Max-Speed and that's due to Ei hitting someone with greater speed; not becuase his physical strength is suddenly even remotely close to the same dimension of characters like SM users. Though even at Max-Speed he hasn't shown anything that necessarily puts him about SM users in striking force.



That's outright false, and his striking feats trump those of any SM user. He even matched v1 B for their double Lariat on Kisame.



> Using Pains to downgrade the strike force of SM users bellow Ei is disingenuous and you know it , considering Kishi selectively allowed Pain Paths to magically tank shit, like a Bijuu Bomb, when they couldn't tank Rasengan at other times.



Could care less.



> How the hell does he see the chakra. He's not a sensor, he doesn't have a Dojutsu.



Same way he "saw" Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (May 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If thats the conclusion you've arrived after all this talk, then debating this any further is meaningless.
> I'd have hoped you'd at least consider the possibility that COR wasn't 1000 more powerful than a rasengan and rasengan isn't as damaging as chidori relative to the area that they come in contact with.


If COR is a 1000 times larger than a normal rasengan, why wouldn't it be 1,000 times more powerful?  Like I've stated earlier, power =/= damage done to a singular target and I would have thought you'd agree with me on that. I gave tenpenchii and raikiri as an example.  What determines how much of that power can be inflicted on a human-sized target is the mechanics of the technique and how it goes about inflicting its damage on that said target.  So even if COR was 1,000 times more powerful than a rasengan, it wouldn't necessarily be the equivalent of getting hit by a rasengan 1,000 times or multiplying the damage of a rasengan by 1,000x to a human-sized target.

Second, if you read my post, I agreed with you that the rasengan isn't as damaging as chidori is relative to the area they come in contact with.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Last but not least, Sasuke's sword pierced Madara.
> YRS wasn't able to penetrate him to that extend.
> 
> 
> ...


Which obviously is an impossible conclusion considering FRS didn't bounce off of Sandaime raikage, at least inflicted minor damage on him, and the senpou rasengan 'peeled off his skin'.  Which is more than sasuke's raiton flow sword did to Ei.  Thus it would lead you to the conclusion that Ei is magnitudes more durable than his father despite the manga both stating and heavily implying that Ei is far below his father in terms of durability.  You'd also have to logically conclude that Ei could survive 8th gated Gai's attacks like evening elephant and night moth due to an inferior madara not being beaten by both of those attacks.

From what I see there are only 2 plausible conclusions that one can reach that explains the evidence while not forcing you to conclude ridiculous things:
1) Sasuke used his rinnegan tech to transport the sword into madara
2) Sasuke's physical strength has increased due to his recent powerups


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## Turrin (May 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There's nothing wrong with Curse Seal Jūgo being able to block it (barley). That's a good speed feat for Curse Seal Jūgo.


I think there is something wrong with it, if your trying to say SM-Jiriaya would have any difficulty whatsoever.



> Which characters could avoid and counter-attack relying solely on malice sensing?


Which characters could perfectly block relying completely on Malice sensing? Ether KCM-Naruto's malice sensing does allow him to position attacks and guards, or Naruto had enough visibility in that scenario where he could still see Han 



> He was actually standing still when he broke it. Both times.


He came out of a max speed Shunshin. Or are you telling me Madara is more durable than Susano'o?



> All it did was knock his headband off. How can you prove she enhanced that with chakra?


Because it was a mere finger flick. If you really think Tsunade is capable of that with chakra enhanced strength, than her strength is beyond Ei's even w/o chakra enhancement anyway.



> He had cut her muscles and negated her strength.


He cut her chest muscle, not her arm muscle. But again if you really think Tsunade is that strong without chakra enhancements than she is above Ei etherway.



> Orochimaru grabbed J-man with his tongue and smashed his ass into the ground, temporarily taking him out of the fight.
> 
> Raikage's ground-smashes crack Susano'o.


And I believe that if Jiriaya was poisoned and in base Liager bomb would probably fuck his day up.



> Where does it say Jiraiya's durability is affected?
> 
> You could also get a scan closer to the fight, instead of using one right after he was drugged


Really the guy says his entire body is in pain and is extremely weakened, and were doubting it effected his durability. Yeah way to once again be proactively dishonest. 



> B has the capability to use chakra arms eh?


Possibly, he has Shrouds. If not than he doesn't.



> When did Human Path tank Bijūdama?
> 
> Not even Tendo could do that. He was only in the area of effect, not hit directly.


All of this is missing the point. The poin being that Kishi clearly gave the Pain Paths selective durability. Unless you really think Rasengan > Bijuu Bomb or even a partial hit from Bijuu Bomb. 



> Suigetsu is a logia, Jūgo didn't care about the hole in him, KCM Naruto has protective cloak, and Madara is an immortal zombie.


What does Madara being an immortal zombie have to do with anything. Being an Edo didn't suddenly raise Madara's physical strength and it's not like Ei did massive damage to him and he regened.



> That's outright false, and his striking feats trump those of any SM user. .


Oh please Naruto thought Frog Fu would work against Juubibito, meanwhile Base-Madara is blocking Ei's strikes with no visible injuries.



> He even matched v1 B for their double Lariat on Kisame


More like B was match him, since Base-B overpowered him.



> Could care less.


Once again arguing from a point of dishonestly 



> Same way he "saw" Amaterasu.


Amaterasu is invisible like chakra  now?


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## Rocky (May 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think there is something wrong with it, if your trying to say SM-Jiriaya would have any difficulty whatsoever.



Funny, I don't recall saying J-man would have difficulty reacting to his v1 flickers.



> Which characters could perfectly block relying completely on Malice sensing? Ether KCM-Naruto's malice sensing does allow him to position attacks and guards, or Naruto had enough visibility in that scenario where he could still see Han



What?

Naruto sensed Han coming and threw up his arms. That's _much_ easier than dodging and counter-punching.



> He came out of a max speed Shunshin. Or are you telling me Madara is more durable than Susano'o?



Raikage skidded to a stop before he hit Sasuke.

Raikage's Liger Bomb and Lightning Chop were the attacks capable of busting Susano'o. His standard punches are most likely not (without being enhanced by shunshin), but I said Sage Jiraiya could take a few of Raikage's normal punches.



> Really the guy says his entire body is in pain and is extremely weakened, and were doubting it effected his durability. Yeah way to once again be proactively dishonest.



Having aches and pains does not make you less durable...



> Possibly, he has Shrouds. If not than he doesn't.



Who is stronger, v1 B or KN1?



> All of this is missing the point. The poin being that Kishi clearly gave the Pain Paths selective durability. Unless you really think Rasengan > Bijuu Bomb or even a partial hit from Bijuu Bomb.



I don't agree, but regardless, why are we operating under the belief that all Pain paths are treated the same way?

If you want to cop out of the debate by saying "lol kishi," then bring me some inconsistencies regarding the Human Path.



> What does Madara being an immortal zombie have to do with anything. Being an Edo didn't suddenly raise Madara's physical strength and it's not like Ei did massive damage to him and he regened.



We actually don't know what damage Raikage did to Madara's arms. We know they weren't ripped off, but they could have been damaged or bruised. IIRC those Edo paper specs came off Madara when he was hit.



> Oh please Naruto thought Frog Fu would work against Juubibito, meanwhile Base-Madara is blocking Ei's strikes with no visible injuries.



Thinking it will work ≠ working.



> More like B was match him, since Base-B overpowered him.



Base B only surpassed his brother after their confrontation in the war. Go read it; B's Lariat actually failed in that fight multiple times and Raikage went on to ragdoll B.

During the double Lariat, v1 Raikage was equal to v1 B.



> Once again arguing from a point of dishonestly



How are you going to tell me what I believe.



> Amaterasu is invisible like chakra  now?



Let me put it this way; did Raikage _see_ Amaterasu before he avoided it?


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