# Itachi vs Jiraiya



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

*Location:* Minato vs Obito

*Distance:* 15 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Jiraiya knows that Itachi is an Uchiha prodigy, Itachi knows that Jiraiya is a Sannin.

*Restrictions:* Koto, Izanami and Susano'o.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 25, 2014)

_MS Itach beats Base Jiraiya.

Although one can argue that YM can end this and that Hair Senpo could neglect Amaterasu. But it is more likely that genjutsu would end this match at this distance and with this vauge intel given to Jiraya. Jiraiya needs SM to beat Itachi even without Susano available.​_


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> _MS Itach beats Base Jiraiya.
> 
> Although one can argue that YM can end this and that Hair Senpo could neglect Amaterasu. But it is more likely that genjutsu would end this match at this distance and with this vauge intel given to Jiraya. Jiraiya needs SM to beat Itachi even without Susano available.​_



Jiraiya has the ability to use Sage Mode, I just don't think he's good enough to be pressured by Itachi and still be able to enter Sage Mode. Especially in this location.

Hair Senpo leaves a gap so Jiraiya can see, with Itachi's Ninja tool prowess he could easily throw shuriken or kunai into that gap, based on what we've seen from his shuriken clash with Sasuke and his kunai trick against Nagato's summons.

I don't think that the intel is vague, Itachi knows that Jiraiya is a powerful Shinobi and Jiraiya knows the same of Itachi, except Jiraiya has more of a hint of Itachi's abilities; Katons, Genjutsu, etc.


----------



## Rain (Nov 25, 2014)

katon gg


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Rain said:


> katon gg



Jiraiya's Katons are way better than Itachi's Katons..

Provide something constructive next time you post.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 25, 2014)

_By 'vague intel', I mean that Jiraiya doesn't know specifically about the dangers of Amaterasu at this range and just how lethal Tsukuyomi actually is. Its not IC for Jiraiya start the battle with any of his game enders and Itachi has been shown plenty to use his genjutsu right from the start. I would also argue that the same thing that happened to Oro happens to Jiraiya here at this distance. Itachi would just instantly genjutsu Jiraiya here and cut his hands off thus stopping him from using kai to break it.​ _


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> _By 'vague intel', I mean that Jiraiya doesn't know specifically about the dangers of Amaterasu at this range and just how lethal Tsukuyomi actually is. Its not IC for Jiraiya start the battle with any of his game enders and Itachi has been shown plenty to use his genjutsu right from the start. I would also argue that the same thing that happened to Oro happens to Jiraiya here at this distance. Itachi would just instantly genjutsu Jiraiya here and cut his hands off thus stopping him from using kai to break it.​ _



Ah, that's true. Even if Itachi had better intel on Jiraiya it wouldn't change much, since like you said, Jiraiya isn't one to bring out the big guns so fast. Itachi tricks his opponent from the get-go.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 25, 2014)

I feel like it would make a better match if you restricted Amaterasu instead of Susanoo.

Jiraiya obviously loses. He can't react or avoid Amaterasu in base. Nor he can enter HM during the fight.
If he starts in HM the whole match up depends if Jiraiya has the sensing and speed to avoid Amaterasu in time.

With Amaterasu restricted Jiraiya could probably counter Susanoo with Yomi Numa.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Flappy said:


> I feel like it would make a better match if you restricted Amaterasu instead of Susanoo.
> 
> Jiraiya obviously loses. He can't react or avoid Amaterasu in base. Nor he can enter HM during the fight.
> If he starts in HM the whole match up depends if Jiraiya has the sensing and speed to avoid Amaterasu in time.
> ...



I honestly don't think that IC Itachi's going to use Amaterasu on Jiraiya unless he feels pressured. He knows that he's a Sannin, but Genjutsu is a quicker and easier to pull off without having much strain on his eye sight. Not that using Amaterasu on a target such as Jiraiya would hinder him anyway, though. If I would restrict anything besides Susano'o, it would be Genjutsu instead.

With Sage Mode Sensing I'd say that Jiraiya would definitely be able to avoid Amaterasu, it's pretty good. Although Jiraiya's shown no evidence for having it, the Databook has said that he has it, I think.

Yes, Yomi Numa is a very good counter to Susano'o.


----------



## Akitō (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachi wins here. I don't think genjutsu is working against Jiraiya because of his knowledge and experience, but Amaterasu can't be avoided unless Jiraiya blocks Itachi's line of sight. And I doubt that'd happen early on considering Jiraiya has no real reason to.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I honestly don't think that IC Itachi's going to use Amaterasu on Jiraiya unless he feels pressured. He knows that he's a Sannin, but Genjutsu is a quicker and easier to pull off without having much strain on his eye sight. Not that using Amaterasu on a target such as Jiraiya would hinder him anyway, though. If I would restrict anything besides Susano'o, it would be Genjutsu instead.
> 
> With Sage Mode Sensing I'd say that Jiraiya would definitely be able to avoid Amaterasu, it's pretty good. Although Jiraiya's shown no evidence for having it, the Databook has said that he has it, I think.
> 
> Yes, Yomi Numa is a very good counter to Susano'o.




If he gets pressured by Jiraiya, one Amaterasu is all Itachi needs. Visual Genjutsu can be countered via clones or by not looking directly at Itachi's eyes while fighting.
 But I guess Itachi can use Dusk Crow or Ephemeral to distract him long enough for a finishing blow. 

If Jiraiya summons the Elder Frogs to aid him he still can't find the time to enter HM. With the Elder Toads helping him Jiraiya would force Itachi to use Amaterasu. 
Ma and Pa can sense the build-up  and warn him but Jiraiya definitely can't avoid Amaterasu in base.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Itachi wins here. I don't think genjutsu is working against Jiraiya because of his knowledge and experience, but Amaterasu can't be avoided unless Jiraiya blocks Itachi's line of sight. And I doubt that'd happen early on considering Jiraiya has no real reason to.



How does Jiraiya counter Genjutsu, exactly?



Flappy said:


> If he gets pressured by Jiraiya, one Amaterasu is all Itachi needs. Visual Genjutsu can be countered via clones or by not looking directly at Itachi's eyes while fighting.
> But I guess Itachi can use Dusk Crow or Ephemeral to distract him long enough for a finishing blow.
> 
> If Jiraiya summons the Elder Frogs to aid him he still can't find the time to enter HM. With the Elder Toads helping him Jiraiya would force Itachi to use Amaterasu.
> Ma and Pa can sense the build-up  and warn him but Jiraiya definitely can't avoid Amaterasu in base.



With the knowledge Jiraiya has, that's not going to cut it. Jiraiya's only created a clone once, if I remember, and that was to feint Pein. He's not going to create a lot of clones to counter Genjutsu, that's OOC for Jiraiya. Jiraiya wouldn't not look into Itachi's eyes, Kakashi and the Jonin didn't refrain from looking into Itachi's eyes from their encounter in Part 1, despite knowing that he's a very powerful Uchiha. Jiraiya's not going to avoid eye contact, all Uchiha naturally have some Genjutsu skill but most Uchiha don't use Genjutsu in their primary offence.

Itachi could use Genjutsu on the summons.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachі said:


> With the knowledge Jiraiya has, that's not going to cut it. Jiraiya's only created a clone once, if I remember, and that was to feint Pein. He's not going to create a lot of clones to counter Genjutsu, that's OOC for Jiraiya. Jiraiya wouldn't not look into Itachi's eyes, Kakashi and the Jonin didn't refrain from looking into Itachi's eyes from their encounter in Part 1, despite knowing that he's a very powerful Uchiha. Jiraiya's not going to avoid eye contact, all Uchiha naturally have some Genjutsu skill but most Uchiha don't use Genjutsu in their primary offence.
> 
> Itachi could use Genjutsu on the summons.




Kakashi didn't look into his eyes because he didn't have knowledge on Tsukuyomi and he was certain his Sharingan would counter it. 
He developed a counter later i.e shadow clone. 

I was talking about Elder Toads not Boss Toads. They can use Sage sensing  to fight without the need of looking into 
Itachi's eyes _similar_ to how Kabuto fought  and use the partner method to dispel genjutsu on Jiraiya.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Kakashi didn't look into his eyes because he didn't have knowledge on Tsukuyomi and he was certain his Sharingan would counter it. He developed a counter later i.e shadow clone.
> 
> I was talking about Elder Toads not Boss Toads. They can use Sage sensing  to fight without the need of looking into Itachi's eyes
> _similar_ to how Kabuto did avoiding eye contact and use the partner method to dispel genjutsu on Jiraiya.



But neither Asuma or Kurenai refrained from looking into Itachi's eyes. 

Again, why would they not look into Itachi's eyes? The only reason they wouldn't is if Jiraiya already summoned one of the Toad Trio and Itachi used Genjutsu, then if Jiraiya advises Fukasaku and Shima to not look into his eyes. However, that may well happen since I can't see Jiraiya taking out Fukasaku and Shima too quickly, he'll probably use Gamabunta.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachі said:


> But neither Asuma or Kurenai refrained from looking into Itachi's eyes.




Jiraiya is neither of them and he advised Naruto on how to avoid and break genjutsu []. 
Plus he knows Itachi is an Uchiha and he has knowledge on how to counter genjutsu and not to look on his eyes.



> Again, why would they not look into Itachi's eyes? The only reason they wouldn't is if Jiraiya already summoned one of the Toad Trio and Itachi used Genjutsu, then if Jiraiya advises Fukasaku and Shima to not look into his eyes. However, that may well happen since I can't see Jiraiya taking out Fukasaku and Shima too quickly, he'll probably use Gamabunta.




Because they won't be looking directly on Itachi's eyes the second they are summoned. 
They stand on his shoulders and gather information. Ma asked [x] Jiraiya before scouting the area where is the guy with Rikudo eyes 
meaning they gathered information in accordance with the summoner's consent about their opponent's  _abilities_ before engaging in combat with him.  

Besides  sensors can tell if they themselves or their partners are effected by genjutsu [x] 
Ma and Pa disrupt their own chakra thus breaking it [] and then they use the partner method on Jiraiya to dispel it. [x]

The same thing happens.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

Base Jiraiya Vs MS itachi can go either with Jiraiya winning more times than being draw way as proven in the manga. (itachi can't win either way, it's either he loses, or both die) 
SM Jiraiya defeats itachi low-mid difficult however.


----------



## Akitō (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachі said:


> How does Jiraiya counter Genjutsu, exactly?



Clones and the partner method. 

I actually forgot about clones when thinking of counters that Jiraiya had to Amaterasu. He doesn't have explicit info on Amatearsu here, but he will likely use them to fend off any genjutsu attempts. I'll have to think about this match a bit more.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Jiraiya is neither of them and he advised Naruto on how to avoid and break genjutsu [].
> Plus he knows Itachi is an Uchiha and he has knowledge on how to counter genjutsu and not to look on his eyes.



But he has no reason to suspect Itachi of being a master of Genjutsu or anything like that. Kakashi's smarter than Jiraiya and he stared into Itachi's eyes until he started becoming wary of Mangekyou Sharingan. This isn't to do with Jiraiya's abilities with Genjutsu (Which are poor anyway since Fukasaku/Shima said) it's about Jiraiya not having enough knowledge on Itachi to not look into his eyes. Minato knew Obito was an Uchiha and he looked into his eyes too. Jiraiya has no reason to try and force himself to avoid eye contact with Itachi.



> Because they won't be looking directly on Itachi's eyes the second they are summoned.
> They stand on his shoulders and gather information. Ma asked [x] Jiraiya before scouting the area where is the guy with Rikudo eyes
> meaning they gathered information in accordance with the summoner's consent about their opponent's  _abilities_ before engaging in combat with him.



Again, they have no reason not to look into his eyes. Jiraiya wouldn't avoid eye contact with Itachi, and he wouldn't advise Fukasaku and Shima to refrain from eye contact with Itachi either.



> Besides  sensors can tell if they themselves or their partners are effected by genjutsu [x]
> Ma and Pa disrupt their own chakra thus breaking it [] and then they use the partner method on Jiraiya to dispel it. [x]
> 
> The same thing happens.



Agreed, but Ma and Pa are most likely going to be caught in Itachi's Genjutsu anyway.



Hussain said:


> SM Jiraiya defeats itachi low-mid difficult however.



Jiraiya's not getting into Sage Mode here. He's not good enough to fight Itachi while clasping his hands together.



Akitō said:


> Clones and the partner method.
> 
> I actually forgot about clones when thinking of counters that Jiraiya had to Amaterasu. He doesn't have explicit info on Amatearsu here, but he will likely use them to fend off any genjutsu attempts. I'll have to think about this match a bit more.



Clones are very viable, though Jiraiya's not an avid clone user he did use a Kage Bunshin against Pein. The partner method is deemed obsolete by Itachi using Genjutsu on Jiraiya's summons.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 25, 2014)

If Jiraiya starts in base with reputation knowledge, Itachi is arguably one of his worst match-ups. Personally, I think illusions are definitely a factor when Jiraiya canonically stated that he's weak in the area, which might hold some truth with his databook stat; that includes both offense/defense, I presume. Basically, he's slightly above the norm, but Itachi has completely mastered the field. A few seconds can alter the outcome...

Either way, both combatants have access to Bunshin, so the capture of either character with Genjutsu/Yomi Numa seems very unlikely in the beginning. However, I should note that the distance favors illusions over a swamp that's within proximity of Jiraiya's own feet, and Itachi can weave seals faster than Kakashi's Sharingan is able to track. The difference is, Jiraiya doesn't have access to such an ability and might be at a disadvantage with their knowledge.

Itachi holds a noticeable advantage up close, and Jiriaya would need distance to gain leverage. 
With this kind of knowledge, I really don't think Jiraiya will be able to keep up with Itachi in CQC. 

Amaterasu doesn't even seem like it would cross his path. Even if did come into play, Jiraiya is clearly vulnerable while trying to suppress any flames. He can also turn Jiraiya's summons against him via illusions. 

The knowledge just seems to be more advantageous for Itachi at this distance. 
The Sannin epithet holds more weight than "Uchiha prodigy" in my eyes. The latter can be construed in different ways, while the legendary three are known to be quite powerful around Konoha and outside countries.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Jiraiya's not getting into Sage Mode here. He's not good enough to fight Itachi while clasping his hands together.



He did that against a superior Ninja to itachi without a problem.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He did that against a superior Ninja to itachi without a problem.



Are you fucking serious? Come on man, you do this all the time. I can't have a decent discussion with you if you ignore things like stipulations and relativity to other characters, the situation is clearly different here. A>B>C logic is cancer.



King Itachi said:


> If Jiraiya starts in base with reputation knowledge, Itachi is arguably one of his worst match-ups. Personally, I think illusions are definitely a factor when Jiraiya canonically stated that he's weak in the area, which might hold some truth with his databook stat; that includes both offense/defense, I presume. Basically, he's slightly above the norm, but Itachi has completely mastered the field. A few seconds can alter the outcome...
> 
> Either way, both combatants have access to Bunshin, so the capture of either character with Genjutsu/Yomi Numa seems very unlikely in the beginning. However, I should note that the distance favors illusions over a swamp that's within proximity of Jiraiya's own feet, and Itachi can weave seals faster than Kakashi's Sharingan is able to track. The difference is, Jiraiya doesn't have access to such an ability and might be at a disadvantage with their knowledge.
> 
> ...



Agree with everything you said, but don't take the Databook stats to heart.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

The situation with pain is obviously harder than how it could be with itachi (assuming he needs SM to begin with).
Nagato is his student, and he knows almost all of Jiraiyas jutsus AND HOW TO COUNTER THEM. Like when he summoned the Banda for defence rather than trying to dodge it.

Itachi DOES NOT know that about Jiraiya as Nagato does. So obviously he will have the harder time here. Also, unlike Nagato who has a massive amount of chakra and an absolute good defence and offence abilities, it's not here for itachi either.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The situation with pain is obviously harder than how it could be with itachi (assuming he needs SM to begin with).
> Nagato is his student, and he knows almost all of Jiraiyas jutsus AND HOW TO COUNTER THEM. Like when he summoned the Banda for defence rather than trying to dodge it.
> 
> Itachi DOES NOT know that about Jiraiya as Nagato does. So obviously he will have the harder time here. Also, unlike Nagato who has a massive amount of chakra and an absolute good defence and offence abilities, it's not here for itachi either.



The only reason Jiraiya was able to get into SM was that the terrain and surrounding area allowed for it and Jiraiya utilised summons well. Here the area is limited and it's completely open, Jiraiya can't run here. Also, Itachi puts out the summons with Genjutsu. So no, Jiraiya had it easier against Pein.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

Well, Jiraiya can enter another space if he wants (the one with the acid when he defeated the Animal path for a second time). Also, a clone can do the trick as well. As for this location, wouldn't that also make it easier for Jiraiya to make a huge ass swamp and solos itachi immediately? Or how do you think itachi is going to deal with that?

Using a genjutsu againt the frogs is useless because with the other guy being there (whether it's jman or other frogs) they would be able to snip themselves out of it by the different methods. Or also using clones which won't be effected by the Genjutsu.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, Jiraiya can enter another space if he wants (the one with the acid when he defeated the Animal path for a second time). Also, a clone can do the trick as well. As for this location, wouldn't that also make it easier for Jiraiya to make a huge ass swamp and solos itachi immediately? Or how do you think itachi is going to deal with that?



The Chunin Exams Arena is inside, escaping to somewhere else would be out of bounds and the escapee would be disqualified, I think.

Itachi can follow Jiraiya's handseal speed easily, with his Sharingan especially. Itachi could jump onto the large finger in the Chunin Exams Arena, leaving Jiraiya to drown in his own swamp.



> Using a genjutsu againt the frogs is useless because with the other guy being there (whether it's jman or other frogs) they would be able to snip themselves out of it by the different methods. Or also using clones which won't be effected by the Genjutsu.



I also countered the other poster's points about that, not going through it again. Clones are a valid method however, even if Jiraiya doesn't use them often.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 25, 2014)

jiraiya losses here, 15 meters he is completley vulnerable to genjutsu and doesn't start in sm so ma in pa can't even break him out.
genjutsu variants along with amatarasu and tsukiyomi pretty much ends the match.




jiraiya summons are also vulnerable to genjutsu and amatarasu.




itachi is one of the most difficult people to fight without knowledge at least give jiraiya knowledge on his genjutsu potency to make it a better match


----------



## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

> [=Itachі;52325303]The Chunin Exams Arena is inside, escaping to somewhere else would be out of bounds and the escapee would be disqualified, I think.


In theory it's the same. For example, Madara's Limbo clones exist in a different space, but they really are at the battlefield. The same with obito when his body is in the Kamui land, but he really is at the same place! (lol that's a bit confusing )



> Itachi can follow Jiraiya's handseal speed easily, with his Sharingan especially. Itachi could jump onto the large finger in the Chunin Exams Arena, leaving Jiraiya to drown in his own swamp.


1- His is reading his handseals allow him to know what's coming? Yes, he might know its an earth element based attack, but he does not know the "exact" thing, does he?

2- I'm honestly confused with this whole Chunin Exam thing
because what I can read in the OP is


> Location: Minato vs Obito



They did not fight in the Chunin Exam Arena, did they? 


> I also countered the other poster's points about that, not going through it again. Clones are a valid method however, even if Jiraiya doesn't use them often.



I haven't read anything but our debates, but I guess that's ok.
Jiraiya used the clones in his fight against Pain though. Most of his other fights he either finished them really fast or he had some problems like with Tsunade's drugs.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> In theory it's the same. For example, Madara's Limbo clones exist in a different space, but they really are at the battlefield. The same with obito when his body is in the Kamui land, but he really is at the same place! (lol that's a bit confusing )



That's existing in a different place, not completely moving there though. 



> 1- His is reading his handseals allow him to know what's coming? Yes, he might know its an earth element based attack, but he does not know the "exact" thing, does he?
> 
> 2- I'm honestly confused with this whole Chunin Exam thing
> because what I can read in the OP is
> ...



Shit, sorry man, I made the location Chunin Exam Arena for a different thread and I got mixed up. 

That's true, but Doton techniques are usually ground based, so he'll jump up. Itachi was fast enough to dodge Sasuke's Chidori while in the air, I have no doubts that he'll be able to dodge this. How would Jiraiya be able to avoid his own swamp though? I honestly don't see Jiraiya not getting caught in Genjutsu right from the beginning.



> I haven't read anything but our debates, but I guess that's ok.
> Jiraiya used the clones in his fight against Pain though. Most of his other fights he either finished them really fast or he had some problems like with Tsunade's drugs.



Ah, alright.

I agree, he used a Kage Bunshin against Pein. Although, it would have been useful for him to create more Kage Bunshin and try and feint more, given the nature of the terrain and the number of enemies.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 25, 2014)

Animal Path < Itachi.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2014)

Well. Jiraiya is getting mindfucked and having his arms cut off.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 25, 2014)

*At this distance Yomi Numa isn't happening. But to whoever is saying that Itachi avoids a Yomi Numa without having intel is just blowing smoke out their ass, frankly. Especially if Jiraiya was in Sage Mode. Go back and look at the scans of Jiraiya using Yomi Numa so you can get a grasp of just how fast a swamp is formed.*


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *At this distance Yomi Numa isn't happening. But to whoever is saying that Itachi avoids a Yomi Numa without having intel is just blowing smoke out their ass, frankly. Especially if Jiraiya was in Sage Mode. Go back and look at the scans of Jiraiya using Yomi Numa so you can get a grasp of just how fast a swamp is formed.*



I think that Itachi can avoid it due to his Sharingan precognition, if Jiraiya is actually able to form Yomi Numa with Itachi still being on the ground he gets caught in it, yes.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> But he has no reason to suspect Itachi of being a master of Genjutsu or anything like that. Kakashi's smarter than Jiraiya and he stared into Itachi's eyes until he started becoming wary of Mangekyou Sharingan. This isn't to do with Jiraiya's abilities with Genjutsu (Which are poor anyway since Fukasaku/Shima said) it's about Jiraiya not having enough knowledge on Itachi to not look into his eyes. Minato knew Obito was an Uchiha and he looked into his eyes too. Jiraiya has no reason to try and force himself to avoid eye contact with Itachi.




No reason to believe Jiraiya is going to get one shotted the instant the match starts via regular genjutsu. Being poor at _casting_ genjutsu doesn't mean he can't avoid it.
Not when he's going around giving tips on how to counter genjutsu and an beginning of Shippuden Naruto used one of his methods when caught in Itachi's genjutsu. 
Not when he can make a clone and force Itachi go through the clone and then trick Jiraiya into looking on his eyes.

Kakashi looked into Itachi's eyes because his Sharingan sees through any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi. 
He didn't have intel on Tsukuyomi until Itachi told him [] only someone with Uchiha blood can break his MS technique. 
Chiyo came up with a counter for genjutsu by knowing Itachi is an Uchiha. Jiraiya knows he's an Uchiha who are innately good at Yin-genjutsu and doesn't look. Simple. 

Itachi will have to force or trick him into visual genjutsu like this. [x]


There was never  established Minato had _direct_ eye contact with Obito long enough for Obito to put him in a genjutsu. 
Obito caught Minato with his hand and used warped him [x] 
Kamui and genjutsu can't be used at the same time with the same eye. 

Minato goes directly through Obito. Obito phased [x] Minato overlapped through him which means Obito's head was inside the dimension. [x] 
That's how Kamui works.[x]Minato teleported to Obito when Obito was tangible and avoided eye contact. [x]



> Again, they have no reason not to look into his eyes. Jiraiya wouldn't avoid eye contact with Itachi, and he wouldn't advise Fukasaku and Shima to refrain from eye contact with Itachi either.



Read above.



> Agreed, but Ma and Pa are most likely going to be caught in Itachi's Genjutsu anyway.



No when they have the means to avoid it. Itachi can win via genjutsu but he has to force or them into it.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 26, 2014)

It's tough but I'd still lean towards Itachi unless this is his blind, death-bed self. Jiraiya doesn't start in Sage Mode and will struggle to handle Itachi's Mangekyo with just his base arsenal. As far as base formes go as well, Itachi's stats are generally quite a bit better across the board (taijutsu/reflexes/speed/genjutsu) except for stamina/strength so he's got that going for him too.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 26, 2014)

This thread has been done dozens of times. Jiraiya wins more times then not if he gets into SM it's over even if Itachi has Susanoo.....

Also I don't understand people saying ohh but poor jiraiya will never make it to SM.....the guy dodges and evades giant boss summons from nagato for like 20 minutes including a bomb pooping bird lol give me a break...


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> This thread has been done dozens of times. Jiraiya wins more times then not if he gets into SM it's over even if Itachi has Susanoo.....



Except it's in a different situation with certain restrictions.



> Also I don't understand people saying ohh but poor jiraiya will never make it to SM.....the guy dodges and evades giant boss summons from nagato for like 20 minutes including a bomb pooping bird lol give me a break...



Jiraiya pulled out boss summons against Nagato to combat Nagato's summons, his summons lose to Genjutsu.

Also, the situations aren't comparable, this is in an open area whereas his battle with Nagato had him running away from Pein in a location that was riddled with nooks and crannies, perfect for Jiraiya. Jiraiya had used his location very well, he was smart and utilised his arsenal, trapping 3 Paths with Gama Rinsho was particularly impressive. Here he doesn't have that advantage.

You simply can't keep comparing the situations like this.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Not ignoring any point when I'm giving you and explanation backed up by the manga that they aren't going to get one shotted by regular genjutsu the instant the match starts.
> 
> Deidara was bratty kid without intel.
> Orochimaru was impatient about taking over his body.
> ...



I'll try and say what I mean in short points.

- Jiraiya only knows that Itachi is a powerful Uchiha

- Smart people like Kakashi have looked into the eyes of an Uchiha

The only time Kakashi wanted to avoid eye contact with Itachi was after he gained knowledge of Tsukuyomi, he didn't care before that.



> That was Tsukuyomi not regular Sharingan genjutsu. Sharingan inherently sees through regular visual genjutsu.
> 
> -Counter to genjutsu besides partner method and disrupting chakra is dojutsu.
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





Except that Sasuke didn't, Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi anyway.









> Neither of them has established visible direct eye contact visible on the scans. He could have looked at his chin, torso arms etc.



That's unlikely since people look into each other's eyes nearly all the time, even in this illogical Manga. Look at Kakashi vs Pein, look at Naruto vs Sasuke.



> This is the same page I posted. Minato clearly doesn't look on Obito's eye *directly * but is on his right side avoiding eye contact. The back of Minato's head band lacing on Obito's mouth in the middle bottom panel. Also here. []



In the scan you can see Minato looking up. Of course, I have no way to prove that Minato was definitely looking into Obito's eyes, but what else would he be looking at?..



> Then again they get summoned and ask him. Why did you summon us.
> They never started a fight without asking why they got summoned.
> Or Jiraiya shouts at them the instant they are summoned to not look directly at their opponent's eye like Kakashi did to Kurenai and Asuma. Why would he summon them facing Itachi anyway when they stand on top of his shoulders and ask why they got summoned.



I agree that Jiraiya has to give them intel, but again, Jiraiya doesn't have the knowledge to immediately resort to avoiding eye contact with Itachi.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I'll try and say what I mean in short points.
> 
> - Jiraiya only knows that Itachi is a powerful Uchiha
> 
> ...




Kakashi avoided eye contact when he gained intel about Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi can't be broken if you don't have Uchiha blood. 
 Kakashi doesn't have Uchiha blood, he only has a sharingan. Itachi specifically says only a sharingan user with _Uchiha blood_ can beat his Tsukuyomi.





I already posted scans.

-Sasuke sees through visual genjutsu.
-Itachi states genjutsu doesnt work on the sharingan 


Also Kakashi sees through Obito's genjutsu [x]





> Except that Sasuke didn't, Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi anyway.




Except that he did [].
So Sasuke broke a stronger genjutsu with his Sharingan but he can't see through a weaker one?

This doesn't make sense.



> That's unlikely since people look into each other's eyes nearly all the time, even in this illogical Manga. Look at Kakashi vs Pein, look at Naruto vs Sasuke.



Naruto is a Perfect jin so genjutsu is irrelevant anyway. Except for Mugen Tsukuyomi.




> In the scan you can see Minato looking up. Of course, I have no way to prove that Minato was definitely looking into Obito's eyes, but what else would he be looking at?..



His torso, his clothes, his movements. He doesn't have to look at his eye to know what he is doing.
Why would Obito risk getting killed and fighting the hard way when he could one shot Minato with genjutsu and accomplish his plans? 
He could destroy Konoha and get  Kurama, there is no reason for him to drag the fight and risk getting killed.




> I agree that Jiraiya has to give them intel, but again, Jiraiya doesn't have the knowledge to immediately resort to avoiding eye contact with Itachi.



Except that he does. Kurama was controlled and Konoha echelons blamed Uchiha because they have the sharingan and can use genjutsu to control it. They didn't blame anyone specifically. If you think Jiraiya gets one shotted from the get-go what's the point of the match up if Itachi doesn't spar with him but one shots Jiraiya ending the match without even starting.


----------



## ARGUS (Nov 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Base Jiraiya Vs MS itachi can go either with Jiraiya winning more times than being draw way as proven in the manga. (itachi can't win either way, it's either he loses, or both die)
> SM Jiraiya defeats itachi low-mid difficult however.



Lmao, more like Itachi buttrapes Base Jiraiya, and beats SM Jiraiya mid/high diff, 
you need to use feats instead of mere manga statements that are not backed up by an logic nor have any credibility at all, 

because by that logic, i could say that Itachi > Kaguya, Hagoromo and everyone else, 
since BZ (who has seen his  mothers and hagoromos full power) stated that itachi is invincible, and no one else,


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 26, 2014)

I'm tired of saying this but, genjutsu GG. Make it sharingan, finger or crow genjutsu. Jiraiya falls for it and then gets oneshot.

Itachi low difficulty.

Let Jiraiya start in SM, and he might give Itachi a challange, till Itachi activates MS.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Kakashi avoided eye contact when he gained intel about Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi can't be broken if you don't have Uchiha blood.
> Kakashi doesn't have Uchiha blood, he only has a sharingan. Itachi specifically says only a sharingan user with _Uchiha blood_ can beat his Tsukuyomi.



You're not even countering my point, in fact, you're supporting my argument. Jiraiya doesn't have intel on Tsukuyomi either, so he's going to engage in eye contact with Itachi.



> I already posted scans.
> 
> -Sasuke sees through visual genjutsu.
> -Itachi states genjutsu doesnt work on the sharingan
> ...



When did Itachi say that Genjutsu doesn't work on the Sharingan?



> Except that he did [].
> So Sasuke broke a stronger genjutsu with his Sharingan but he can't see through a weaker one?
> 
> This doesn't make sense.



That doesn't counter my point, Sasuke was still tricked by Itachi and didn't know that it was a Genjutsu until Itachi made it clear that it was.

The difference is, Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu that the victim knows they are in, 3 Tomoe Genjutsu can be used to manipulate people into thinking that it's real, as Itachi did against Sasuke.



> Naruto is a Perfect jin so genjutsu is irrelevant anyway. Except for Mugen Tsukuyomi.



That's wrong. Even the partner method takes some time, it's not like he'll be able to snap him out of it in a second. If Naruto get hits by Tsukuyomi, his body is rendered useless. Only Tsunade could heal the effects of Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and Kakashi, if Naruto get hits by Tsukuyomi, Kurama can't do anything except give him Chakra.



> His torso, his clothes, his movements. He doesn't have to look at his eye to know what he is doing.
> Why would Obito risk getting killed and fighting the hard way when he could one shot Minato with genjutsu and accomplish his plans?
> He could destroy Konoha and get  Kurama, there is no reason for him to drag the fight and risk getting killed.



But why would he _not_ look into his eyes? It's natural for anyone to look their opponent in their eyes unless they have intel that advises them not to do so.

Alright, why would Madara or Sasuke refrain from doing so? Genjutsu isn't really their forte. Why would Obito not simply phase into every village and stealth Kamui the Jinchuriki? Why did Obito refrain from capturing Naruto while he was a weak defenceless baby and while Minato was dead and Jiraiya was away?



> Except that he does. Kurama was controlled and Konoha echelons blamed Uchiha because they have the sharingan and can use genjutsu to control it. They didn't blame anyone specifically. If you think Jiraiya gets one shotted from the get-go what's the point of the match up if Itachi doesn't spar with him but one shots Jiraiya ending the match without even starting.



Again, many others have faced Uchiha opponents and have looked them in the eyes. I've been through this many times, prime example, Kakashi vs Itachi in Part 1. 

I don't think he gets defeated immediately, Jiraiya still has summons that can assist him. Even if they are rendered useless afterwards by Itachi's Genjutsu, they are still useful in the beginning.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> You're not even countering my point, in fact, you're supporting my argument. Jiraiya doesn't have intel on Tsukuyomi either, so he's going to engage in eye contact with Itachi.



Pretty sure I'm countering every one of your points. 
Kakashi was certain genjutsu doesn't affect him until _Itachi told  him that he had awakened a new ability than only people with Uchiha blood can break. _

Tsukuyomi is not regular genjutsu.

Jiraiya has no sharingan and he isn't risking looking at his eyes because he doesn't have immunity to neither normal genjutsu or Tsukuyomi. I was talking about regular genjutsu.




> When did Itachi say that Genjutsu doesn't work on the Sharingan?



When he explained Izanami mechanics and how genjutsu doesn't work on clansmen who have the same eyes. []

Anyway I posted the DB page that ocular jutsu/dojutsu users can see through visual genjutsu and provided arguments how every one of them saw through genjutsu.



> That doesn't counter my point, Sasuke was still tricked by Itachi and didn't know that it was a Genjutsu until Itachi made it clear that it was.



Itachi never told him this is my Tsukuyomi. Sasuke broke it by himself with no intel he was inside it.



> The difference is, Tsukuyomi is a Genjutsu that the victim knows they are in, 3 Tomoe Genjutsu can be used to manipulate people into thinking that it's real, as Itachi did against Sasuke.



They don't know until the caster tells them. Tsukuyomi can be manipulated as well.

- Itachi used on Kakashi with the introverted red and black scheme 

- Itachi used it on Sasuke and made him think he stole his eyeball without the introverted red and black scheme making him think they're inside the room

He had no intel he was inside it. He saw through it.




> That's wrong. Even the partner method takes some time, it's not like he'll be able to snap him out of it in a second. If Naruto get hits by Tsukuyomi, his body is rendered useless. Only Tsunade could heal the effects of Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and Kakashi, if Naruto get hits by Tsukuyomi, Kurama can't do anything except give him Chakra.



Yes if it lands it will affect Naruto because he doesn't have Uchiha blood. Sasuke has no Tsukuyomi.
How is this relevant to regular sharingan genjutsu again?





> But why would he _not_ look into his eyes? It's natural for anyone to look their opponent in their eyes unless they have intel that advises them not to do so.



Because he doesn't need to and he figured out he is an Uchiha. Chiyo states : "It's been long since I fought a Sharingan and that she knows many tactics to counter sharingan genjutsu. [x]

An outsider knows not to look at the eyes of an Uchiha because they use genjutsu and the Hokage doesn't? Okay. lol



> Alright, why would Madara or Sasuke refrain from doing so? Genjutsu isn't really their forte. Why would Obito not simply phase into every village and stealth Kamui the Jinchuriki? *Why did Obito refrain from capturing Naruto while he was a weak defenceless baby and while Minato was dead and Jiraiya was away?*



1. Because people can counter it.
2. Madara used genjutsu on Ay by forcing him to look at his eyes with Susanoo []
3. Sasuke used on Bee and Cee

Because Obito outright stated he doesn't individually have the power to do so. [x] He could only attack Kushina because they were in an isolated place from the village and he seal weakened during birth.

He gets inside the village and everyone attacks him. I don't see how the plot is relevant to this again.






> Again, many others have faced Uchiha opponents and have looked them in the eyes. I've been through this many times, prime example, Kakashi vs Itachi in Part 1.



I explained it several times. Sharingan is immune to visual genjutsu. 

-Sasuke sees through Cee visual blinding genjutsu

-Kakashi sees through Obito's genjutsu

- Sasuke sees through Itachi's 3 tomoe genjutsu by himself. Don't know where you got Itachi informed him []



> I don't think he gets defeated immediately, Jiraiya still has summons that can assist him. Even if they are rendered useless afterwards by Itachi's Genjutsu, they are still useful in the beginning.



If he gets one shotted with genjutsu immediately he can't summon anyone. 
 Not to mention even if he summons them Itachi genjutsus everyone all together and it's a one shot. Not to mention Itachi *always* starts with genjutsu. 

How is this match up debatable again if you think genjutsu directly one shots him?


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Again, I think that you're missing the point man.

Zabuza never refrained from looking into Kakashi's eyes.

Pein never tried to avoid eye contact with Kakashi.

Minato was never _shown_ to avoid eye contact with Obito.

Danzo never refrained from looking into Sasuke's eyes.

Naruto never avoided eye contact with Obito. 

There's no reason that Jiraiya would avoid eye contact, given his limited intel.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 26, 2014)

He avoids eye contact and gets caught by finger genjutsu. He avoids the finger and gets by crow genjutsu. He avoids that and he gets caught by Izanami.

Itachi never failed to use genjutsu on anyone. There is no basis to "x avoids Itachi's genjutsu arguments."

For someone who is facing Itachi, being able to do something about genjutsu is a must, whether you are Kabuto and make yourself immune to visual genjutsu or you'r B and immune to genjutsu because of your bijuu or you have a dojutsu and you can see through it. Otherwise you'r fucked. Deal with it


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

I am going to reply to this last one for the sake of the argument. You can leave it at that if you still can't come to an agreement.




			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> Again, I think that you're missing the point man.




*Spoiler*: __ 





> Zabuza never refrained from looking into Kakashi's eyes.



He used the Hidden Mist Jutsu to block Kakashi's sharingan LOS.



> Pein never tried to avoid eye contact with Kakashi.



Pain had the means to counter it. He blows him away the instant Kakashi tries to place him inside genjutsu. If he gets caught other paths come and do the partner method on the Path that has been placed under his Sharingan genjutsu.

Then again I'm not sure how regular visual genjutsu would affect a Path that is being constantly infused with chakra changing its frequency by Nagato. 
Sound genjutsu physically restrained and paralysed the Paths nerves so it's a more advanced and lethal genjutsu than regular genjutsu.




> Minato was never _shown_ to avoid eye contact with Obito.



It wasn't stated but he physically bend to Obito's right when he pierced him without looking at his eyes. [] 



> Danzo never refrained from looking into Sasuke's eyes.



Because he could break it? And he did. [x]

On the second genjutsu he got cocky and underestimated him because his genjutsu wasn't on par with Tsukuyomi. He got tricked during the fight anyway.



> Naruto never avoided eye contact with Obito.



KCM Naruto was never alone against Obito and he would have been released out of it by his partners. 
Not to mention Naruto is too fast for genjutsu to land and Obito was forced to phase through his attacks. Genjutsu and Kamui can't be used at the same time.

BM Naruto can break genjutsu since he has Kurama's consent to use his chakra.



> There's no reason that Jiraiya would avoid eye contact, given his limited intel.



But there is, that's why I've already provided multiple examples why he will.
He isn't getting one shotted by a regular genjutsu without  sparring with Itachi. Itachi will have to trick or force him inside his regular genjutsu.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

I'm going to say this about the last scan since we've being going over the same points over and over again.

I said this above. He was always partnered with friends when he encountered Obito. 
Irrelevant stuff such as 3 tomoe genjutsu were not going to affect him. Not when Hachibi or Bee breaks him out of it. 

Then again Naruto moves too fast for Obito to focus his eye and land his genjutsu on him. He has to force him like Madara did to Ay by grabbing him with Susanoo.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> I'm going to say this about the last scan since we've being going over the same points over and over again.
> 
> I said this above. He was always partnered with friends when he encountered Obito.
> Irrelevant stuff such as 3 tomoe genjutsu were not going to affect him. Not when Hachibi or Bee breaks him out of it.
> ...



Except that even a Genjutsu that lasted a split second would have been enough to warp Naruto.

That's why that situation was perfect for Obito to land Genjutsu on Naruto.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Except that even a Genjutsu that lasted a split second would have been enough to warp Naruto.
> 
> That's why that situation was perfect for Obito to land Genjutsu on Naruto.



Not with Hachibi at all times near him that forces Obito to phase through his attacks.

As I said Naruto is faster than Ay. Madara had to physically restrain Ay with his Susanoo hand and cast his genjutsu on him. 
He can't land the genjutsu. Not with his speed when someone slightly slower than him had to be physically restrained for genjutsu to work.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Not with Hachibi at all times near him that forces Obito to phase through his attacks.
> 
> As I said Naruto is faster than Ay. Madara had to physically restrain Ay with his Susanoo hand and cast his genjutsu on him.
> He can't land the genjutsu. Not with his speed when someone slightly slower than him had to be physically restrained for genjutsu to work.



Obito can warp people very fast, Kid Obito nearly warped Minato, Minato just about got away with Hiraishin.

What does that matter when Naruto's not moving? If Naruto was moving, I doubt that Obito would be able to land Genjutsu on him either.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Obito can warp people very fast, Kid Obito nearly warped Minato, Minato just about got away with Hiraishin.
> 
> What does that matter when Naruto's not moving? If Naruto was moving, I doubt that Obito would be able to land Genjutsu on him either.



Bee interrupts him and forces him to move back or phase.

Naruto immediately retracted back. He is to fast for genjutsu to land. Ocular jutsus need focus to land on the opponent just like Amaterasu. 
Sasuke focuses on one point and Amaterasu appears. Raikage is too fast for Sasuke to focus his eye until Amaterasu spawns. Naruto is even more faster.
Thus Obito doesn't get the time to inflict genjutsu on him without physically restraining him like Madara did to Ay,


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Bee interrupts him and forces him to move back or phase.
> 
> Naruto immediately retracted back. He is to fast for genjutsu to land. Ocular jutsus need focus to land on the opponent just like Amaterasu.
> Sasuke focuses on one point and Amaterasu appears. Raikage is too fast for Sasuke to focus his eye until Amaterasu spawns. Naruto is even more faster.
> Thus Obito doesn't get the time to inflict genjutsu on him without physically restraining him like Madara did to Ay,



Bee's not fast enough, he didn't interrupt at that moment or the moment leading up to it.

I honestly don't think so, we don't know how much time Genjutsu needs to land, I think that only a split second of eye contact is needed.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 26, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Lmao, more like Itachi buttrapes Base Jiraiya, and beats SM Jiraiya mid/high diff,
> you need to use feats instead of mere manga statements that are not backed up by an logic nor have any credibility at all,
> 
> because by that logic, i could say that Itachi > Kaguya, Hagoromo and everyone else,
> since BZ (who has seen his  mothers and hagoromos full power) stated that itachi is invincible, and no one else,



I see, delusional as always, eh, Argus?  

- Yeah, itachi has no credibility about his own power, but you do? :rofl 

- Good for you. let the Susanoo protect him forever inside of one of the volcanos. 
or inside the moon. lol


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

SM Jiraiya vs MS Itachi with full intel and a fair starting distance at 30-50 Meters is pretty much a 50/50 match, assuming this is also healthy Itachi & we give Jiraiya databook statements which include sage sensing and frog kata. Senjutsu sized Yomi Numa, frog song, Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi are game enders. It would be a wonderful match to watch especially if we could debate this in KC with OOC​


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Jiraiya's one of the most entertaining fighters, his battle with Pein was excellent, I wish we saw more. Itachi's fights were good too, but it was just him feinting his opponents with Bunshin and Genjutsu, Genjutsu is too hax imo. I also think that MS Kakashi vs MS Itachi would be a great match. Without Genjutsu, Itachi would be really fucked.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Bee's not fast enough, he didn't interrupt at that moment or the moment leading up to it.
> 
> I honestly don't think so, we don't know how much time Genjutsu needs to land, I think that only a split second of eye contact is needed.




Bee anticipated Minato's Hiraishin which is instant and interrupted it with his octopus leg.
He can interrupt Kamui warping which is slower when he's keeping a close watch on Naruto. 

They're a tag team.




Either way genjutsu casting is fast but people on Ay's speed tier are quick enough to avoid it.
Naruto is faster than v2 Ay so it goes the same. Madara proved it when he had to restrain Ay from moving.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Bee anticipated Minato's Hiraishin which is instant and interrupted it with his octopus leg.
> He can interrupt Kamui warping which is slower when he's keeping a close watch on Naruto.
> 
> They're a tag team.
> ...



That's a damn good feat but B was close to Ei, he isn't so close here. Grabbing Naruto with a tentacle isn't fast enough. Kamui is faster than most physical attacks.

Agreed, but there's no way for Naruto to expect Genjutsu, it doesn't have a form like Amaterasu does.


----------



## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> That's a damn good feat but B was close to Ei, he isn't so close here. Grabbing Naruto with a tentacle isn't fast enough. Kamui is faster than most physical attacks.



He doesn't have to grab Naruto. He just slaps Obito from the sides and forces him to phase. Bee was close.
 Bottom left panel shows the distance between Obito and Bee after Naruto and Obito clashed. So they were much closer when they clashed.





> Agreed, but there's no way for Naruto to expect Genjutsu, it doesn't have a form like Amaterasu does.



He doesn't have to expect it when his fighting style revolves around moving fast so it doesn't land on him. Like Ay does.


----------



## ARGUS (Nov 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I see, delusional as always, eh, Argus?


Lol, says the guy that  thinks Base jiiraiya is superior itachi and kisame, with no basis or any logical explanation at all 



> - Yeah, itachi has no credibility about his own power, but you do? :rofl


same way minato says that he is no match for kushina? 
yet you dont seem to say that he is weaker than her, 
double standards at its absolute finest 



> - Good for you. let the Susanoo protect him forever inside of one of the volcanos.
> or inside the moon. lol


not an argument nor is iit any relevant to this fight at alll


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm tired of saying this but, genjutsu GG. Make it sharingan, finger or crow genjutsu. Jiraiya falls for it and then gets oneshot.
> 
> Itachi low difficulty.
> 
> Let Jiraiya start in SM, and he might give Itachi a challange, till Itachi activates MS.



If thats how you all the Itachi supporters feel then why even make this thread? "I know you didn't make it Itachi did"

No matter what Jiraiya supporters say Itachi fans just say genjutsu gg lol wtf? It was canon that Jiraiya was totally confident in taking out Itachi and Kisame at the same time. Does it sound ridiculous later in the manga? Yes. But its still canon.

Bottom line Why make a thread to just use one move gg answers? That sounds like just being a troll.

At the end of the day Living Itachi is not stronger then Jiraiya. And you can't use healthy itachi or edo itachi because those don't count.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 27, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Lol,* says the guy that  thinks Base jiiraiya is superior itachi and kisame, with no basis or any logical explanation at all *
> 
> 
> same way minato says that he is no match for kushina?
> ...



In his/her defense Jiraiya practically one shotted Itachi and Kisame with the frog stomach. Itachi had to use his second best move to get them out and after he was to tired to fight. Soo if thats not the logic you want then go take a hike lol


----------



## Itachі (Nov 27, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> It was canon that Jiraiya was totally confident in taking out Itachi and Kisame at the same time. Does it sound ridiculous later in the manga? Yes. But its still canon.



Are you serious right now? You think that it's ridiculous but think that it's true?


----------

