# Once-And-For-All: Why did the Fourth Raikage "lie"?



## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Tags: Once-And-For-All, Raikage, Naruto, Gai, Minato, Raiton Chakra Mode, Madara, KCM, Eight Gates, Mad Scientist

​
*Once-And-For-All:*
_Why did the Fourth Raikage lie?_

_People often think the Raikage's statement means he was 100% correct and that we should believe he was the fastest at the time even though he "lied" (i.e. obviously I'm not saying he lied, but he was incorrect.) In this thread, we will try to determine, through discussion, why the Raikage had "lied"._​
*Objectives:*

Determine, explain and discuss the nature of this "inconsistency".
*Notes*:

*RCM* = Raiton Chakra Mode ()
*V1/V2* = To differentiate between RCM's standard use (V1, e.g. this) and max power (V2, e.g. *Link Removed* and this).


*Art Credits*:​
*The Raikage's Lie*
In Chapter 541, page 9, the Fourth Raikage, A (also known as Ei/Ay), states the following:


"There is no shinobi faster than me. Ever since the Fourth Hokage died!"​


Let's just make sure that _is_ what he's actually saying...



Yep,  translation seems to have the same thing.


"I am the fastest shinobi alive, now that the Fourth Hokage has passed away."​


Now, obviously he's referring to his whole self i.e. Raiton Chakra Mode 2 (which is a part of his ability) is his top speed and he's factoring that in his comparison of speeds (evidently, Minato surpassed his younger self's top *Link Removed*.)



Anyway, A is lying (_obviously_ I'm not claiming or suggesting that he's _lying_, but rather that he's _misinformed_), because at least _two_ people, at the time he made the statements, are identifiable as having been faster than him at the time.



*The First - KCM Naruto*
The first guy is KCM Naruto. He was obviously faster than A at the time A made his "lie". He *Link Removed* him *Link Removed* after, with no changes in form (e.g. no Biju Mode, Sage Mode enhancement), meaning Naruto was faster than him (and of course we are considering his top speed since that's what A uses and that's when he and B said Naruto outperformed him).



*The Second - Might Gai*
Let's consider Might Gai's top speed too. Might Gai's top speeds are crazy and he bended space in Night *Link Removed*. It's beyond obvious that Might Gai was much faster than A at the time he made the statements.



*The Question I Pose To You*
Why did the Fourth Raikage "lie"? In other words, why do people (consider if one of those people might be you) take his words so literally when he was _clearly_ incorrect?



Please explain this inconsistency.


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## Onda Vital (Nov 14, 2019)

You forgot Chojuro, who blitzed Juudara's blitzer.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

@Isaiah13000, explain yourself.





Onda Vital said:


> You forgot Chojuro, who blitzed Juudara's blitzer.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 14, 2019)

It's really not difficult to comprehend what the intent behind that statement was at all. A really was the fastest since Minato died up until NTCM Naruto surpassed him with his newfound speed. Guy's 8th Gate is obviously not factored into the equation because it's not usually factored into his portrayal to begin with.There's nothing wrong with the statement, all you need to do is use some common sense.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It's really not difficult to comprehend what the intent behind that statement was at all. A really was the fastest since Minato died up until NTCM Naruto surpassed him with his newfound speed. Guy's 8th Gate is obviously not factored into the equation because it's not usually factored into his portrayal to begin with.There's nothing wrong with the statement, all you need to do is use some common sense.


Then you should tick the "Other" box. His statement is objectively false, intent or not. He wasn't the fastest at that point.

*Answer this question.* Who was faster when A made that statement: KCM Naruto or A?


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## trocollo (Nov 14, 2019)

I guess reputation takes a role in this, even when Minato was known enough to have the flee on sigth order Ay still tried to confront him
Now Gai lives in a different country, and Naruto just got the KCM, if fact he will later evade his blow and Ay will acknowledge his speed
I'd say that we can be sure that he is the fastest man in the hidden cloud and maybe in some nation allied with it, but it's not like everything that is said must be god's truth

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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 14, 2019)

A probably doesn't have the slightest clue who Gai is. Gai wasn't a famous shinobi, we're shown this through Kisame not having the slightest idea who he was. 

A was world famous for his speed, Gai wasn't known at all. Makes sense why he'd think he's the fastest.

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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 14, 2019)

Because he _is_ the fastest at that point. 
8th Gate Guy doesn't exist yet and KCM Naruto hadn't gotten used to his form he just got a couple hours ago enough to pass him yet or even really had any idea he would ever need to push him self that hard.

A4 isn't a time traveler, the reader is.

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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Because he has way more hype and his speed is consistent as fuck, he was first one to actually dodge "undodgeable" amaterasu, completely escape ms vision of speed, tsunade was suprised that naruto was managing to keep up with his speed, and at that point narutos shunshin was already too fast for Bee to see. Was well know for his speed by Minato, Said to be fast by madara. His forte is speed, so i see No reason why would gai be faster


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> A probably doesn't have the slightest clue who Gai is. Gai wasn't a famous shinobi, we're shown this through Kisame not having the slightest idea who he was.
> 
> A was world famous for his speed, Gai wasn't known at all. Makes sense why he'd think he's the fastest.


I agree. It's funny how people try to use that flawed statement as a moniker that somehow proves A is faster than 7G Gai.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Because he _is_ the fastest at that point.


No he's not. Gai and Naruto were faster than him.




Hi no Ishi said:


> 8th Gate Guy doesn't exist yet


What? Gai can go 8G. *That's part of his ability*. That's when he can peak at his top speed. Gai is objectively faster than A. 



Hi no Ishi said:


> and KCM Naruto hadn't gotten used to his form he just got a couple hours ago enough to pass him yet or even really had any idea he would ever need to push him self that hard.


KCM Naruto didn't use Shunshin against A before he outperformed him. It's not about getting used to the form or not; he had more than one try against A and already had _enough_ training practice with KCM. Did he get used to using Shunshin in the fight or something? No. KCM Naruto's Shunshin is a part of _his_ ability. That makes him objectively faster than A during that entire scene.



Hi no Ishi said:


> A4 isn't a time traveler, the reader is.


A4 also isn't the reader. He doesn't know who's the fastest. And if your argument is that he had intel on Gai, then you'd be contradicting yourself because 8G >>> A4.



Siskebabas said:


> Because he has way more hype and his speed is consistent as fuck, he was first one to actually dodge "undodgeable" amaterasu, completely escape ms vision of speed, tsunade was suprised that naruto was managing to keep up with his speed, and at that point narutos shunshin was already too fast for Bee to see. Was well know for his speed by Minato, Said to be fast by madara. His forte is speed, *so i see No reason why would gai be faster*


It's not about seeing _why_ someone would be faster, because in this case it's about objectively measuring _what_ A said. He's only speaking from his own experience and knowledge. How would _he_ know that Gai and Naruto were actually faster than him at the time?


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 14, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Because he _is_ the fastest at that point.
> 8th Gate Guy doesn't exist yet and KCM Naruto hadn't gotten used to his form he just got a couple hours ago enough to pass him yet or even really had any idea he would ever need to push him self that hard.
> 
> A4 isn't a time traveler, the reader is.



8th Gate Gai did exist, though. 8th Gate wasn't exclusive to him, his father used it, Madara apparently knew of someone who used it as he was aware of the red vapor. Lee knew what what sekizo was, so there was written descriptions of the technique and it's abilities.

He just had no clue who or what a Might Gai was.

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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I agree. It's funny how people try to use that flawed statement as a moniker that somehow proves A is faster than 7G Gai.
> 
> 
> No he's not. Gai and Naruto were faster than him.
> ...


Youre basing your entire opinion on fail premise, naruto at that point was not the fastest. Thats exatcly what happened i the fight, he got used to his own speed, The whole fight was shunshin fight as naruto tried to pass over a4 but he couldnt as he got countered everytime, and everytime he had to up his speed til he eventually outmatched him.


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> 8th Gate Gai did exist, though. 8th Gate wasn't exclusive to him, his father used it, Madara apparently knew of someone who used it as he was aware of the red vapor. Lee knew what what sekizo was, so there was written descriptions of the technique and it's abilities.
> 
> He just had no clue who or what a Might Gai was.


Im sure he meant at that point of story 8 gate didnt existed, as kishi came with ideas as he went along


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Im sure he meant at that point of story 8 gate didnt existed, as kishi came with ideas as he went along



We're told during Lee's fight with Gaara that the 8th Gate gave power that exceeded that of the kage, so there was some idea. Albeit exact speed wouldn't be known, but we're given the base line that whoever opens it is absurdly powerful.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Youre basing your entire opinion on fail premise, naruto at that point was not the fastest. Thats exatcly what happened i the fight, he got used to his own speed, The whole fight was shunshin fight as naruto tried to pass over a4 but he couldnt as he got countered everytime, and everytime he had to up his speed til he eventually outmatched him.


So Naruto "_getting used to his own speed_" despite getting pressured by V1 A more than once somehow elevated him to out-speeding _*V2 A???!*_ Damn.



Siskebabas said:


> Im sure he meant at that point of story 8 gate didnt existed, as kishi came with ideas as he went along


8G already existed. It was established in P1.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 14, 2019)

He didn’t


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> We're told during Lee's fight with Gaara that the 8th Gate gave power that exceeded that of the kage, so there was some idea. Albeit exact speed wouldn't be known, but we're given the base line that whoever opens it is absurdly powerful.


Yeah, but 8 gate power varies from user to user, fodder using would still be almost fodder, there astronomical diffrence between gai and dai


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> So Naruto "_getting used to his own speed_" despite getting pressured by V1 A more than once somehow elevated him to out-speeding _*V2 A???!*_ Damn.
> 
> 
> 8G already existed. It was established in P1.


Yep, thats what happened, you can even read naruto own statements, he was suprised that raikage was keeping up, each time tried up his to No avail, his own statements. He needed training as just moments ago he sprained ankle because he couldnt control his speed. 
Part 1 8 gate was said to be kage level, and it was retconned to be above gokage in end of p2


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Part 1 8 gate was said to be kage level, and it was retconned to be above gokage in end of p2


Sigh...
1. Where?
2. You know there are seriously strong kage-levels right?


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sigh...
> 1. Where?
> 2. You know there are seriously strong kage-levels right?


Read gaara vs Lee fight, i think it was mentioned there. 
Cmon, now youre being silly, in part 1 Gates were never implied to be that strong, furthermore all kages you have seen in part 2 had not existed in kishis mind. Even his father who was fodder was still mostly fodder with 8 gate, its only gai who somehow gained power above gokage with 8 gate, it was retcon plain and simple


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## trocollo (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Read gaara vs Lee fight, i think it was mentioned there.


Actually it say that it grants powers that surpasses the hokage's

Also, was like, stated that 7th gate guy is slower than V2 Ay?
I mean if it's obvius then I ask forgiveness for the stupid question, but in the CE Lee seemed already pretty fast with only 4 gates, then in the war he saves guy from a TSB Idk

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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

trocollo said:


> Actually it say that it grants powers that surpasses the hokage's
> 
> Also, was like, stated that 7th gate guy is slower than V2 Ay?
> I mean if it's obvius then I ask forgiveness for the stupid question, but in the CE Lee seemed already pretty fast with only 4 gates, then in the war he saves guy from a TSB Idk


What happened in war arc stays in war, neither can i explain because everything was all over the place.
What i meant that part 1 kage is completely diffrent power structure than we got in part 2, imagine it was suprising that tobirama casted suiton without water source and we have Kisame part 2


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Read gaara vs Lee fight, i think it was mentioned there.
> Cmon, now youre being silly, in part 1 Gates were never implied to be that strong, furthermore all kages you have seen in part 2 had not existed in kishis mind. Even his father who was fodder was still mostly fodder with 8 gate, its only gai who somehow gained power above gokage with 8 gate, it was retcon plain and simple


A lot of what you're saying is lazy headcanon and/or inaccurate.

No one said "8 gate was said to be kage level." Kakashi stated it grants strength that surpasses even the Hokage's.
All the Hokages did exist in Kishi's mind (lol).
I will re-emphasise a point that went over your head. How would Naruto's "getting used to KCM" be enough to surpass V2 A (who is considerably faster than V1), when KCM Naruto couldn't once outperform V1 A? Where is your proof that Naruto was "getting used to KCM" in that fight?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 14, 2019)

Often times characters state something that it's a fact, to them and their perspective. 

It doesn't necessarily mean it's an actual fact of the Narutoverse and it's not Kishi speaking factual statements through the characters. 

Remember people hyping Hebi Sasuke as being Zabuza's killer? 

Members naturally try to twist statements to fit and support their argument and only consider the points mentioned above when convenient.


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> A lot of what you're saying is lazy headcanon and/or inaccurate.
> 
> No one said "8 gate was said to be kage level." Kakashi stated it grants strength that surpasses even the Hokage's.
> All the Hokages did exist in Kishi's mind (lol).
> I will re-emphasise a point that went over your head. How would Naruto's "getting used to KCM" be enough to surpass V2 A (who is considerably faster than V1), when KCM Naruto couldn't once outperform V1 A? Where is your proof that Naruto was "getting used to KCM" in that fight?


This getting quite redundant, call it above hokage if thats suits you, thats it still way bellow gokage level, and gokage level is way way below juubi jinchuriki level. Yes they existed but they were nowhere that strong as they were in in part 2. Part 2 Hashiramas Powers were literally called fairy tales. V2 is not considerably faster than v1 atleast we cannot prove it, as he was matchings narutos shunshin in v1, you might as well say v2 is those last 10% thats get him overboard


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Often times characters state something that it's a fact, to them and their perspective.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily mean it's an actual fact of the Narutoverse and it's not Kishi speaking factual statements through the characters.
> 
> ...


Yeah no, he was stated by multiple characters to be fast, nothing is twisted by The members


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Then you should tick the "Other" box. His statement is objectively false, intent or not. He wasn't the fastest at that point.
> 
> *Answer this question.* Who was faster when A made that statement: KCM Naruto or A?


A was, because Naruto hadn't got used to his speed yet. Once Naruto adjusted to his mode and mastered his speed when A pushed him to use it then he officially surpassed A.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 14, 2019)

The readers themselves didn’t really know what eight gates was capable of, nor did we automatically know KCM Naruto would surpass Raikages shunsin chapters later. It’s a story, and these are progression within the story that thereader will gradually get to know as the chapters release

But from a literal standpoint A4 was incorrect


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Might Guy was faster.

He punches at atmospheric descending speeds and moves faster.

Ei wasn’t even aware he existed as a shinobi. Guy had no reputation outside of his village, in it it was still close to nothing, thought incapable of even competing alongside SM Naruto by one of the villages most knowledgeable Jounin.

Even if he were aware it wouldn’t make a difference, his teenage subordinate alone has done things that put him on the feature level of top speed Ei so his statement was proven an arrogance farce/character ignorance by the author’s pencil.

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## Skaddix (Nov 14, 2019)

I am not sure 8th Gate would be factored in at all. Its not repeatable or testable. Its a sucide powerup ability so its not like Gai ever used it before Madara to show he had it. It was theoretical at that point for all practical purposes. Not to mention Ei would go right back to being the fastest after Gai uses it lol. 

KCM Naruto obviously didnt fucking exist at this point.

Like I get it people don't like Raikage for reasons but lets not get stupid. This statement isn't a lie...there are plenty of hypberbolic and outright lies in this manga.


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Might Guy was faster.
> 
> He punches at atmospheric descending speeds and moves faster.
> 
> ...


Youre talking about genin Lee breaking floor with speed?


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Might Guy was faster.
> 
> He punches at atmospheric descending speeds and moves faster.
> 
> ...


Did you just insinuate that Lee is on par with V2 A?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> Youre talking about genin Lee breaking floor with speed?


No, picking up and carrying a dead weight man away from a speeding truthseeker 2m away, kicking Edo Madara in half without a reaction, and perceiving, physically reacting and intercepting a speeding truthseeker with a kunai throw while standing still.

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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Did you just insinuate that Lee is on par with V2 A?


No, I said he’s done things that put him on the same feature level.

WA Lee is probably above his level, as he succeeded in blitzing Madara in one go, something Ei repeatedly failed to accomplish with the supporting pressure and distraction of 4 additional Kage.


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## MShadows (Nov 14, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Because he _is_ the fastest at that point.
> 8th Gate Guy doesn't exist yet and KCM Naruto hadn't gotten used to his form he just got a couple hours ago enough to pass him yet or even really had any idea he would ever need to push him self that hard.
> 
> A4 isn't a time traveler, the reader is.


Summed it up perfectly

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## Skaddix (Nov 14, 2019)

Well gee @DaVizWiz by that logic surely you must support @SakuraLover16 position that Sakura is a top tier speed demon correct? I mean you are consistent and not a biased hypocritical fanboy/hater because well gee Sakura dodged attacks from Kaguya that Naruto said was fast.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> This getting quite redundant, call it above hokage if thats suits you, thats it still way bellow gokage level, and gokage level is way way below juubi jinchuriki level. Yes they existed but they were nowhere that strong as they were in in part 2. Part 2 Hashiramas Powers were literally called fairy tales.


"call it above hokage if thats suits you, thats it still way bellow gokage level"......

Do you have _any_ clue how much you've downplayed the Hokages right now...?

First and Second Hokages

(*Link Removed*)

 describes the ninjutsu of Hokages (especially with the First and Second as examples)
There are multiple categories of ninjutsu, such as Water Release and Earth Release but essentially, whether those techniques may or may not be activated is influenced by the terrain, and *using Water Release someplace where there is no water is nearly impossible*. *Only shinobi with Hokage-class levels of mastery may free themselves from this law of Nature*.

*A Hokage’s ninjutsu stand on a whole other level*. *This hijutsu [Wood Release] is a legend among legends*. *There’s no one in Konoha who doesn’t know about it*.

_Think_ about that for a minute.

First Hokage

He's a *Kage*.
"A shinobi with excelling power" ().

"He is even now told of for the high ability of his jutsu, such as the use of his characteristic Wood Release jutsu" ().

(*Link Removed*)​Second Hokage

"He was a superior ninjutsu user, being able to use Water Release without being near the waterside, among many other feats" ().
"He is prideful of his superior combat ability, and with the Water Release jutsu which he was especially skilful at he was unexpectedly revived in the present to defeat the Third , which put fear in the people of Konoha" ().

(*Link Removed*)​
...we had statements like these when they weren't even at full power (*Link Removed*)......

...And then we had the 8G Gai actually being stronger than them, which completely matches Kakashi's .



Siskebabas said:


> V2 is not considerably faster than v1 atleast we cannot prove it, as he was matchings narutos shunshin in v1, you might as well say v2 is those last 10% thats get him overboard


No. V2 is _considerably_ faster.

We get a mention of his top speed twice and see it more than that.
KCM Naruto can track V1 A, but _EMS_ Sasuke can barely even track V2 A.
When A goes max power, Bee thought he was going to actually _kill_ Naruto.
*That's the difference*.

When A was in V1, he matched and outperformed KCM Naruto just fine. Why didn't Naruto "get used to him" *at that point* and dodge him the *second time* they clashed? Clearly since Naruto didn't "get used to him", his rate of "getting used to him" shouldn't have been fast enough to surpass V2, unless he _wasn't_ using Shunshin or at least not using it to the best of his ability - which is it? Also, when A went top speed, from quite a distance away, he was _right in Naruto's face in an instant *despite* Naruto already moving_.

*That's the difference*.

Do you have a statement suggesting Naruto was getting used to him?



Isaiah13000 said:


> A was, because Naruto hadn't got used to his speed yet. Once Naruto adjusted to his mode and mastered his speed when A pushed him to use it then he officially surpassed A.


It's not about getting used to his speed. Naruto was already fast with Shunshin and _already had an opportunity to get used to A's speed_ _the first time they clashed_, yet failed to outperform him the second. How does him "getting used to" V1 A, which is trivial at best when considering him getting outperformed more than once by V1 A, warrant him suddenly surpassing a considerably faster A in V2? Naruto already had what it takes and _was_ faster than A insofar as his ability allowed him to be, he just didn't _show it_ until he needed to. That doesn't mean he was slower at the time though, since A's evaluative criteria are top speeds.

And _even if Naruto wasn't faster than him_, that _still_ doesn't outlaw Gai. Gai was obviously faster than A at the time he made the statement, so obviously it shouldn't be taken at face-value that A was the fastest man at the time.



Cherry said:


> The readers themselves didn’t really know what eight gates was capable of, nor did we automatically know KCM Naruto would surpass Raikages shunsin chapters later. It’s a story, and these are progression within the story that thereader will gradually get to know as the chapters release
> 
> But from a literal standpoint A4 was incorrect


Given the information at the time, we could approximate though.

We already know how ridiculously fast 6G Gai is when he blitzed Kisame.
V1 A is V1 B's peer in speed (that's how I see it). Kisamehada > V2 B (in water, but it doesn't really matter that it's in water even if 7G Gai can't swim fast in there, because we know that _V2 B_ *and* 7G Gai are obviously fast on ground). V2 B is KCM Naruto's peer in speed, if not faster. 7G is obviously much stronger and faster than 6G, which is much faster than Kisame already, so 7G >> Kisamehada, KCM Naruto and V2 A (KCM Naruto and V2 B's peer).
8G is obviously even faster than that.
Even if you don't subscribe to that logic... Kakashi stated 8G gives the user strength that "surpasses Hokage", or "the Hokage's", depending on which translation you use. We know above how strong the Hokage are. Regardless of whether it's a story or not, that still doesn't get around the point that Gai is objectively faster than A (since their evaluative criteria is top speed and 8G Gai would obviously be faster than V2 A), even if you somehow try to convince me that KCM Naruto was still getting used to A like other posters have trivially suggested. But I do note that you do believe his statement was incorrect.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I am not sure 8th Gate would be factored in at all. Its not repeatable or testable. Its a sucide powerup ability so its not like Gai ever used it before Madara to show he had it. It was theoretical at that point for all practical purposes. Not to mention Ei would go right back to being the fastest after Gai uses it lol.
> 
> KCM Naruto obviously didnt fucking exist at this point.
> 
> Like I get it people don't like Raikage for reasons but lets not get stupid. This statement isn't a lie...there are plenty of hypberbolic and outright lies in this manga.


I'm not honestly sure which side of the debate you're on. 

It doesn't matter if it's repeatable or testable. Kinjutsu isn't typically repeatable or testable, but we don't take _that_ away from the character's ability e.g. Deidara. Doesn't matter if it was theoretical - we already knew how fast 6G was, 7G is faster than that, and 8G is even faster than that. Either way, 7G (who was _definitely _not "just theoretical" at the time) and 8G Gai are objectively faster than A. 

KCM Naruto did exist when he was fighting A - you must be confused which statement I'm referring to.

I like the Raikage and I made it very clear that I didn't actually mean his statement was a lie.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Well gee @DaVizWiz by that logic surely you must support @SakuraLover16 position that Sakura is a top tier speed demon correct? I mean you are consistent and not a biased hypocritical fanboy/hater because well gee Sakura dodged attacks from Kaguya that Naruto said was fast.


Nope, the author  Sakura was slower than Kakashi who saved her life twice with his superior speed.

Feel free to post material implying Lee’s speed was an outlier, as all he did throughout the war was outspeed everything around him and all the gates have ever done is outspeed everything around them.


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## blk (Nov 14, 2019)

A4 couldn't know of KCM Naruto's speed or 8G Gai (not even Gai himself could know exactly how strong he would be with the 8G).

So it's a matter of being misinformed but also partially true. 

For one, KCM Naruto wasn't really proficient in using that kind of fast Shunshin. He had inconsistent showings.

Gai can become faster _if _he uses the 8 Gate.
As long as he doesn't, A4's statement remains true.


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## Marvel (Nov 14, 2019)

The answer is obvious. Why is this thread even a thing?  
1. He didn't now how fast KCM Naruto was.
2. He didn't know how fast 8 Gate Gai was and probably didn't even know Gai or the Gates exisited. and Considering 7G Gai would be known for his speed and not just a taijutsu specialist if he was faster than AY in 7G proves my point.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

blk said:


> A4 couldn't know of KCM Naruto's speed or 8G Gai (not even Gai himself could know exactly how strong he would be with the 8G).


I agree.



blk said:


> So it's a matter of being misinformed but also partially true.


I think it's only partially true insofar as the intent behind it in portraying Minato (and A, to an extent) as extremely fast.



blk said:


> For one, KCM Naruto wasn't really proficient in using that kind of fast Shunshin. He had inconsistent showings.


I mean, he got his foot stuck in a wall, but that wasn't an issue due to speed, but rather a lack in technique when using Shunshin during KCM. Which showings do you mean?



blk said:


> Gai can become faster _if _he uses the 8 Gate.
> As long as he doesn't, A4's statement remains true.


Isn't that like saying "A is only faster than everyone _if_ he uses RCM" and "KCM Naruto post-chapter-544 is only faster _if_ he uses Shunshin"? I don't really understand the relevance of this point.

I get the impression he's using top speeds as the measure so we should take into account people's top speeds, even if they haven't been witnessed. My point is that objectively his statement is incorrect even if Naruto is out of the equation as an example.



Marvel said:


> The answer is obvious. Why is this thread even a thing?
> 1. He didn't now how fast KCM Naruto was.
> 2. He didn't know how fast 8 Gate Gai was and probably didn't even know Gai or the Gates exisited. and Considering 7G Gai would be known for his speed and not just a taijutsu specialist if he was faster than AY in 7G proves my point.


1. So?
2. Did A know of 7G Gai's speed? An absence of knowledge here doesn't _prove_ your point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nope, the author  Sakura was slower than Kakashi who saved her life twice with his superior speed.
> 
> Feel free to post material implying Lee’s speed was an outlier, as all he did throughout the war was outspeed everything around him and all the gates have ever done is outspeed everything around them.


Actually he didn’t the panel in question clearly shows her avoiding arms two god tiers called fast and still showing high reactions when she saved Obito from a point blank puddle of acid coming from opening a portal. Sakura’s feat is similar considering she reacted fast enough to save Obito. Also it’s obvious characters don’t go at top speeds all the time plus do we even know how far/close Kakashi was to Sakura when she made the decision to run. Finally even Kakashi didn’t dare move when Kaguya was moving in that scene. Not to mention Lee has never been portrayed to be able to outspeed everything.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 14, 2019)

A4 was correct when he said what he said.

Naruto had *not yet surpassed him*, but would in short time. 8th gated Gai is not an option because there's no such thing as 8th gated Gai yet, which should be self evident since 8th gate kills the user and as a result 8th gated speed was still an unknown quantity. (consequently an 8th gates user would be dead and A4's statement would still be true)

So was he correct? Yes. Can there be exceptions? Also yes as no statement should be interpreted as a no limits fallacy. A4 was the fastest standard operating ninja in the world after Minato died. Barring aliens from other dimensions and powerups that leave you a dead pile of ash, both of which nobody could be aware of or could factor in.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Actually he didn’t the panel in question clearly shows her avoiding arms two god tiers called fast and still showing high reactions when she saved Obito from a point blank puddle of acid coming from opening a portal. Sakura’s feat is similar considering she reacted fast enough to save Obito. Also it’s obvious characters don’t go at top speeds all the time plus do we even know how far/close Kakashi was to Sakura when she made the decision to run. Finally even Kakashi didn’t dare move when Kaguya was moving in that scene. Not to mention Lee has never been portrayed to be able to outspeed everything.


Sakura not moving at top speed to save her BFF and love of her life being grappled and pulled into a chakra vortex sounds less logical than her going at top speed.

Sakura and Obito would’ve died if Kakashi did nothing, he did 4 things to Sakura’s 0.

Sakura is slower than Sharinganless Kakashi, who is no speed demon.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sakura not moving at top speed to save her BFF and love of her life being grappled and pulled into a chakra vortex sounds less logical than her going at top speed.


We don’t know how close Kakashi actually was to her when he intercepted her. Also not even Sasuke could travel at full speed when Sakura and Obito opened the dimension he was forced to teleport.


DaVizWiz said:


> Sakura and Obito would’ve died if Kakashi did nothing, he did 4 things to Sakura’s 0.


This is more of a plus to his experience/quick thinking remember when Sakura did something similar in the forest of death. Also him saving her and Obito doesn’t change the fact that she saved Obito and with Obito’s help they saved Sasuke.


DaVizWiz said:


> Sakura is slower than Kakashi, who is no speed demon.


Her feat of avoiding the chakra arm goes against this. Again two speed demons called it fast therefore it is. That isn’t up for debate.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Naruto had *not yet surpassed him*,


A4's statement was concerning absolute speed, not who surpassed who. KCM Naruto had to use his top speed (which _he already possessed_ but _didn't show until later_) to surpass A but that means he already _was_ faster. _Nothing_ changed when Naruto "surpassed" A, other than the fact that A now is aware Naruto could be (and therefore _is_, according to his measuring) faster than him. Right before Naruto surpassed A, he was faster than him, despite not having proved it yet.



ShinAkuma said:


> but would in short time. 8th gated Gai is not an option because there's no such thing as 8th gated Gai yet,


I see no reason to believe that WA Gai was incapable of using the Eight Gates Released Formation.



ShinAkuma said:


> which should be self evident since 8th gate kills the user and as a result 8th gated speed was still an unknown quantity. (consequently an 8th gates user would be dead and A4's statement would still be true)


A's premise is based on who _is_ the fastest. 8G and 7G is part of Gai just as much as KCM+Shunshin is part of Naruto and RCM2 is part of A. Gai and Naruto are objectively faster than him when he said that.



ShinAkuma said:


> So was he correct? Yes. Can there be exceptions? Also yes as no statement should be interpreted as a no limits fallacy. A4 was the fastest standard operating ninja in the world after Minato died. Barring aliens from other dimensions and powerups that leave you a dead pile of ash, both of which nobody could be aware of or could factor in.


If there can be exceptions to his statement, then his statement was obviously incorrect; whether that's by a little or a lot doesn't change that fact. And we should judge his statement with critique because people don't usually say "oh well there may be exceptions" to when a character of authority makes such a bold, absolute claim. And it shouldn't be treated like lightly - his statement is suggesting an absolute. 7G Gai (or 8G in theory) was the fastest, standard operating ninja since A's statement. Kinjutsu is a part of a character's power.


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## Soul (Nov 14, 2019)

It's really simple. He merely believes he is the faster shinobi alive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> A4's statement was concerning absolute speed, not who surpassed who. KCM Naruto had to use his top speed (which _he already possessed_ but _didn't show until later_) to surpass A but that means he already _was_ faster. _Nothing_ changed when Naruto "surpassed" A, other than the fact that A now is aware Naruto could be (and therefore _is_, according to his measuring) faster than him. Right before Naruto surpassed A, he was faster than him, despite not having proved it yet.



Naruto was not yet faster until *he surpassed A4 in that scene*. Yes he always had the potential, but he was not faster until he kicked it up.

Standard shonen troupe of passing your benchmark.



> I see no reason to believe that WA Gai was incapable of using the Eight Gates Released Formation.



Who said he couldn't?

Gai has *not yet used the 8th gate* therefore his speed cannot be considered as it does not *yet exist*.



> A's premise is based on who _is_ the fastest. 8G and 7G is part of Gai just as much as KCM+Shunshin is part of Naruto and RCM2 is part of A. Gai and Naruto are objectively faster than him when he said that.



Well the assumption then is that Gai is not faster in 7th gate and as I have shown 8th gate isn't an option as far as A4's comparison.

If hypothetical's are your angle may as well involve the aliens as faster.



> If there can be exceptions to his statement, then his statement was obviously incorrect; whether that's by a little or a lot doesn't change that fact.



It was *always incorrect* because we the reader are aware of aliens.

But he *is correct in regards to standard ninjas running around Naruto*.

8th gate is not standard.



> 7G Gai (or 8G in theory) was the fastest, standard operating ninja since A's statement. Kinjutsu is a part of a character's power.



Your premise fails if it based on the idea 7th gate is faster as 7th gate was a known quantity at the time.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Naruto was not yet faster until *he surpassed A4 in that scene*. Yes he always had the potential, but he was not faster until he kicked it up.
> 
> Standard shonen troupe of passing your benchmark.



That's like saying 6G Gai isn't faster than 6G Lee because even though he had the potential, he wasn't faster _"until"_ he kicked it up. We _know_ he's faster. In A's case, we know (in hindsight) that Naruto actually _was_ faster even before _proving_ it.
Think about it like this.... _if_ he _wasn't_ faster, then he _wouldn't_ have had the potential to be faster.



ShinAkuma said:


> Who said he couldn't?
> 
> Gai has *not yet used the 8th gate* therefore his speed cannot be considered as it does not *yet exist*.


Well of course it can be considered. 6G is Kisame-blitzing speed. 7G is faster than that. 8G has to be faster than that. The simple fact is A did not ever consider Gai being faster than him. Do you have evidence or proof A considered whether or not Gai was faster than him?



ShinAkuma said:


> Well the assumption then is that Gai is not faster in 7th gate and as I have shown 8th gate isn't an option as far as A4's comparison.
> 
> If hypothetical's are your angle may as well involve the aliens as faster.


That's like saying A would consider Naruto surpassing him invalid because he doesn't count Shunshin. JJ Madara would be faster than A - we don't need a panel of him surpassing him to know that. 7G Gai is faster than A too. I'm not being hypothetical, all I'm saying is that A merely thought he was the fastest.



ShinAkuma said:


> It was *always incorrect* because we the reader are aware of aliens.
> 
> But he *is correct in regards to standard ninjas running around Naruto*.
> 
> 8th gate is not standard.


No. If he _actually_ _was_ the fastest at the time, in other words, _no one would be able to surpass him in speed at the time_, then at the time he would have been factually correct.

He's not isolating anyone. He's outright stating he was the fastest. Why are you restricting it to just standard ninja - that changes what he said.

8G is not standard, like kinjutsu.
ET is not standard, yet is considered a part of P1 Oro's arsenal.
C0 is not standard, yet it is considered a part of Deidara's arsenal.



ShinAkuma said:


> Your premise fails if it based on the idea 7th gate is faster as 7th gate was a known quantity at the time.


Not sure what you mean. Naruto and Gai were faster than him when he said that. There's no compelling evidence to suggest he took into account Might Gai, who the author tells us gets underestimated.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's like saying 6G Gai isn't faster than 6G Lee because even though he had the potential, he wasn't faster _"until"_ he kicked it up. We _know_ he's faster. In A's case, we know (in hindsight) that Naruto actually _was_ faster even before _proving_ it.


Naruto wasn't faster until he proved it.

That's how proof works.



> Think about it like this.... _if_ he _wasn't_ faster, then he _wouldn't_ have had the potential to be faster.


That's what is known as *nonsense*.

Perhaps you should look up the word "potential"?



> Well of course it can be considered.



No.

A4's words are specifically about what has been shown up to that point. Since Gai hasn't yet used 8th gate his speed is still not known and wouldn't be quantified.



> 6G is Kisame-blitzing speed. 7G is faster than that. 8G has to be faster than that. The simple fact is A did not ever consider Gai being faster than him. Do you have evidence or proof A considered whether or not Gai was faster than him?



The narrative intends for A4 to be the fastest. We are told that he is post Minato. Gai exists post Minato and so does his 7th gate.




> That's like saying A would consider Naruto surpassing him invalid because he doesn't count Shunshin.



No it's not.

8th gate Gai does not yet exist when A4 said he was the fastest. A4 cannot consider things that do not yet exist in the shinobi world. For the same reason he isn't considering Kaguya he cannot consider 8th gate.



> No. If he _actually_ _was_ the fastest at the time, in other words, _no one would be able to surpass him in speed at the time_, then at the time he would have been factually correct.



Nobody did surpass him in speed *at the time he said his words*.

Naruto only surpassed him *after*.



> He's not isolating anyone. He's outright stating he was the fastest.



He is the fastest tho.

You are the one with the problem with that fact.



> Why are you restricting it to just standard ninja - that changes what he said.



I'm not restricting it, the narrative is. I'm simply pointing it out.

Narratively aliens don't exists as such not part of the equation. Narratively 8th gate Gai  doesn't exist as such not part of the equation. Naruto becoming the new yellow flash does not yet exist.

His words are true until proven to be false, which Naruto proves shortly after, which Gai proves later in the story with 8th gate, which aliens prove much later with their reveal.



> Not sure what you mean. Naruto and Gai were faster than him when he said that.



Except they weren't, like literally as Naruto didn't get faster than A4 until *after he said he was the fastest*.

Then Gai 70 chapters later or whatever.

Then aliens and Boruto and whoever.

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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> "call it above hokage if thats suits you, thats it still way bellow gokage level"......
> 
> Do you have _any_ clue how much you've downplayed the Hokages right now...?
> 
> ...


You're overcomplicating these matters to the INSANE degree when truth is much simplier, part 1 does NOT equal part 2. I as told to other poster its was impressive that tobirama casted suiton without source when in part 2 Kisame spits puts literal lakes. You just refuse to take any other argument regardless whats being Said, most poster here in this thread say same shit, yet you keep arguing just for sake of arguing. If you think that kishi in his mind writing part 1 though his dude gai with his 8 gate is going combat such thing as juubi jinchuriki, then what ever suits you


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## Skaddix (Nov 14, 2019)

Shit Gaara wasn't even a Jin and Shukaku wasnt a Bijuu either so obviously Kishi didnt have all this shit planned in Part I


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

@Mad Scientist Raikage had no idea how fast KCM Naruto was, which was why it was a big deal when KCM naruto outsped him because it meant Naruto outdoes the faster person currently alive.

Gai was known as the leafs green beats because he built his reputation on the seventh gate, no one knew what he was like with all gates open because he had never done it before, so they were going off seventh gate

All gates opened Gai speed >>>>>>>>>>>>KCM Naruto speed > Raikage speed > seventh gate Gai speed


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> @Mad Scientist Raikage had no idea how fast KCM Naruto was, which was why it was a big deal when KCM naruto outsped him because it meant Naruto outdoes the faster person currently alive.
> 
> Gai was known as the leafs green beats because he built his reputation on the seventh gate, no one knew what he was like with all gates open because he had never done it before, so they were going off seventh gate
> 
> All gates opened Gai speed >>>>>>>>>>>>KCM Naruto speed > Raikage speed > seventh gate Gai speed


Actually he’s faster than Ei the 6th Gate.

Proof in the fact he lit air on fire by moving.

No one knew Guy’s actual abilities, you had Shikaku claiming he couldn’t compete alongside SM Naruto, that speaks volumes about the lack of respect he garnered within his own village.

Ei didn’t know Guy. No one outside his village knew him, no one even spoke his name outside of the Konoha elite.


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Actually he’s faster than Ei the 6th Gate.
> 
> Proof in the fact he lit air on fire by moving.
> 
> ...



maybe in combat speed Gai is better but in a foot race Raikage wins. Besides there has to be some extra chakra going into that to make it special like a jutsu of sorts because Gai doesn’t punch a morning peacock punch everytime he attacks.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> maybe in combat speed Gai is better but in a foot race Raikage wins. Besides there has to be some extra chakra going into that to make it special like a jutsu of sorts because Gai doesn’t punch a morning peacock punch everytime he attacks.


No he doesn’t. Guy already burned air with his leg. He’d ghost Ei in a leg race.

The only thing Ei could possibly compete with Guy in is short range speed bursts, like the Amaterasu dodge. 

There’s no special chakra, he’s lightning air on fire with physics. It’s more taxing on his body but there’s no special chakra involved, there’s no chakra in Afternoon Tiger either.


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No he doesn’t. Guy already burned air with his leg. He’d ghost Ei in a leg race.
> 
> There’s no special chakra, he’s lightning air on fire with physics. There’s no chakra in Afternoon Tiger either.



like I said, combat speed he wins, not travel speed. Kick and a punch are Combat speed. Bruce Lee can’t our run the fastest man in the world because Bruce Lee can kick faster. Different types of speed.


There has to be something going on because as I said Nkt ever attack Gai throws is hirudora or morning peacock, and there has to be a reason for it.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> like I said, combat speed he wins, not travel speed. Kick and a punch are Combat speed. Bruce Lee can’t our run the fastest man in the world because Bruce Lee can kick faster. Different types of speed.
> 
> 
> There has to be something going on because as I said Nkt ever attack Gai throws is hirudora or morning peacock, and there has to be a reason for it.


Running is kicking, and there’s nothing that implies a man who moves his limbs fast enough to burn air and avoid truthseekers while carrying another man would be slower than a short range shunshin specialist in a legitimate foot race.

There’s no way in hell Ei is running away from Guy. 

The reason was explained to you, gates remove the limits on the human body and further enhance it in higher numbers, everything about Guy’s style is contingent upon physics and altering the matter around him with his speed. Lightning air on fire, long range air bombs and shockwaves, kicks that cut through the space time with pure speed.


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Running is kicking, and there’s nothing that implies a man who moves his limbs fast enough to burn air and avoid truthseekers while carrying another man would be slower than a short range shunshin specialist in a legitimate foot race.
> 
> There’s no way in hell Ei is running away from Guy.
> 
> The reason was explained to you, gates remove the limits on the human body and further enhance it in higher numbers, everything about Guy’s style is contingent upon physics and altering the matter around him with his speed. Lightning air on fire, long range air bombs and shockwaves, kicks that cut through the space time with pure speed.




Kicking speed doesn’t equal running speed. Combat speed doesn’t equal running speed. Karate sensei can kick faster then a sprinter but the sprinter will beat them in a race. Different types of speed. 


Nothing you said at the end explains why Gai’s fists don’t light up everytime he ever punches within the sixth gate, meaning that isn’t a normal thing hat happens and he needs to do something else to gain that ability. Sasuke doesn’t normally breath fire so he does something to make himself able to. 


Not every punch Gai throws is as fast as a morning peacock fist.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Kicking speed doesn’t equal running speed. Combat speed doesn’t equal running speed. Karate sensei can kick faster then a sprinter but the sprinter will beat them in a race. Different types of speed.
> 
> 
> Nothing you said at the end explains why Gai’s fists don’t light up everytime he ever punches within the sixth gate, meaning that isn’t a normal thing hat happens and he needs to do something else to gain that ability. Sasuke doesn’t normally breath fire so he does something to make himself able to.
> ...


No one said it did, it has an affect on your speed though. If you can light air on fire with your kicks you’re fast as shit running, I don’t care what conclusion you come to, it’s not going to circumvent that logic.

Of course it’s not, and yet he did it 1,000 times in one panel against Kisame.

He can access that superior speed whenever he wants for whatever reason he wants. It’s not a chakra based jutsu, its not been listed as a nature transformation, it’s a taijutsu, it’s him using the upper level of his speed to light air on fire and punch it toward an opponent.

If he can access that speed for an attack he can access that speed for anything. It’s not a teleportation or some special high speed katon, it’s literally a bare bones speed burst that creates a natural reaction.


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No one said it did, it has an affect on your speed though. If you can light air on fire with your kicks you’re fast as shit running, I don’t care what conclusion you come to, it’s not going to circumvent that logic.
> 
> Of course it’s not, and yet he did it 1,000 times in one panel against Kisame.
> 
> ...




So your saying Gai in the sixth gate can constantly punch and kick fire for as long as he’s in the sixth gate? That’s funny

never said Gai wasn’t fast as shit running, just not faster then the current fastest ninja, which would factor in Gai since he is a legendary shinobi, the blue beats of the leaf, blue being the aura the seventh gate gives off.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> So your saying Gai in the sixth gate can constantly punch and kick fire for as long as he’s in the sixth gate? That’s funny
> 
> never said Gai wasn’t fast as shit running, just not faster then the current fastest ninja, which would factor in Gai since he is a legendary shinobi, the blue beats of the leaf, blue being the aura the seventh gate gives off.


I didn’t say that... what the hell are you taking about?

Based on what? You’re using a character statement from a man who didn’t even know Guy as your premise.

Lol dude Kisame never even heard his name before and he was in a Great War against Konoha. Guy literally fought the 7 swordsmen and he still didn’t know him.

This blue beast reputation nonsense you’re spreading around is what’s funny.


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## Jad (Nov 14, 2019)

No different to when Sasuke in Part 1 stated "No human can stop my kick" when Lee blocked his kick.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 14, 2019)

@Mad Scientist

Um everything you said still doesn’t ignore the fact that it’s a story, and as the story progresses we learn more as we go on. You can obviously say A4 was wrong at the time because you finished and read the manga, but had the manga still been going on we’d still have to wait for the story to progress.

6 gated guy pressuring Kisame with his speed doesn’t magically let us know how fast the 8 gate is, we also didn’t see into the future that KCM Naruto would surpass A4’s shunsin


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> I didn’t say that... what the hell are you taking about?
> 
> Based on what? You’re using a character statement from a man who didn’t even know Guy as your premise.
> 
> ...




At the bare minimum you’d think tsunade would make some sort of comparison to the raikage and Gai at some point if the raikage was wrong, but regardless of that I don’t think Gai knew who Kisame was and Kisame was touted as the tailed tailed beast, so both of them are dense as hell. Gai’s moniker is the blue beast, but that changed when he opened the final Gate.


Besides, Kishi wouldn’t make the raikage say this for it to be incorrect, the statement served a purpose to show naruto became the fastest person after he outdoes the raikage, that’s why this statement is here, to set up naruto if Gai was faster, he would be used to set up Naruto. 

plus tsunade knew Gai’s speed and never corrects the raikage or kicks him off his high horse, and fuck it truthfully iff Gai was so great as you seem to believe, he’d be hokage, not Tsunade.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> At the bare minimum you’d think tsunade would make some sort of comparison to the raikage and Gai at some point if the raikage was wrong, but regardless of that I don’t think Gai knew who Kisame was and Kisame was touted as the tailed tailed beast, so both of them are dense as hell. Gai’s moniker is the blue beast, but that changed when he opened the final Gate.
> 
> 
> Besides, Kishi wouldn’t make the raikage say this for it to be incorrect, the statement served a purpose to show naruto became the fastest person after he outdoes the raikage, that’s why this statement is here, to set up naruto if Gai was faster, he would be used to set up Naruto.
> ...


You can believe a statement over features, that’s fine. Know that you’re in the laughing stock of most fiction fandoms for doing so.

Tsunade was chosen second by the elders who likely knew nothing about Guy, and Guy isn’t necessarily stronger than her overall

Let’s take a look at the other kage choices:


Madara was going to be kage over Hashirama, but it didn’t go through
Ei was selected over Killer Bee
Darui was selected over Killer Bee
Danzo was selected over Sage Naruto and Might Guy
Kakashi was supported as the selection by the Jounin representative Shikaku over Sage Naruto, Danzo and Might Guy
Sharinganless (nicknamed Sharingan Kakashi) Kakashi was selected over Rikudo Naruto, Rikudo Sasuke, and Byakugo Sakura Haruno


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> You can believe a statement over features, that’s fine. Know that you’re in the laughing stock of most fiction fandoms for doing so.
> 
> Tsunade was chosen by the elders who likely knew nothing about Guy, and Guy isn’t necessarily stronger than her overall
> 
> ...



A4 got in cuz bloodline, Madara dipped, I doubt bee wanted the job,  naruto was sixteen both as a sage and as rikudo, and gaara was 16 and got in only because the only other person in all of sins who even mattered was Chiyo who was retired and they needed somebody.

Gai wasn’t hyped at any point in the series as being this super mega high kage without the 8th gate,  nor was he ever once hyped to be the fastest shinobi alive without the final gate. 

Gai was Kakashi’s rival through and through without the 8th gate, and lmao at Kakashi being near A4 in any manner of power.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> A4 got in cuz bloodline, Madara dipped, I doubt bee wanted the job,  naruto was sixteen both as a sage and as rikudo, and gaara was 16 and got in only because the only other person in all of sins who even mattered was Chiyo who was retired and they needed somebody.
> 
> Gai wasn’t hyped at any point in the series as being this super mega high kage without the 8th gate,  nor was he ever once hyped to be the fastest shinobi alive without the final gate.
> 
> Gai was Kakashi’s rival through and through without the 8th gate, and lmao at Kakashi being near A4 in any manner of power.


Excuse
Excuse
Excuse
Excuse

You know what I hate? When someone I’m debating with can’t even concede on a single point and claims EVERY SINGLE CANON HAPPENING that is contrary to their point is excusable with NONSENSE.

Not wanting the job is a clear cut example of it not being contingent upon power you daft bot.

Being too young is a clear cut example of it not being contingent upon power you daft bot.

How the hell did you type that out thinking it was pro your argument?

Tsunade didn’t get the job because of her power alone you daft bot. You cannot use that as a slight on Guy’s power directly.

You know this, and yet you typed out those excuses that disprove your own point anyway...


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Excuse
> Excuse
> Excuse
> Excuse
> ...




Raikage was a dumbass and still was qualified, so lack of mental fortitude alone doesn’t cut it. Not to mention who knows if Gai did or did not want the job, he wasn’t even mentioned in the first place. 

what I really hate is when the author uses common literary devices at precise moments with clear cut purposes to serve a narrative in the story only for someone to claim it’s all bullshit because they want some other character to be better. The semantics of “he didn’t know Gai” or “but Gai has the 8th gate” is completely pointless because this was not used for dramatic irony where we know the raikage isn’t the fastest, it is presented as fact so that the fact can be taken down by naruto to then make naruto look good, at no point was Gai involved in this. This is a crucial statement that held narrative purposes for the story, yet its supposed to be incorrect because Gai is a chad. 

raikage was the speed hurdle for Naruto to overcome, not Gai, his lack of relevance during the point in the manga where naruto was supposed to become the fastest person alive speaks volumes.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Raikage was a dumbass and still was qualified, so lack of mental fortitude alone doesn’t cut it. Not to mention who knows if Gai did or did not want the job, he wasn’t even mentioned in the first place.
> 
> what I really hate is when the author uses common literary devices at precise moments with clear cut purposes to serve a narrative in the story only for someone to claim it’s all bullshit because they want some other character to be better. The semantics of “he didn’t know Gai” or “but Gai has the 8th gate” is completely pointless because this was not used for dramatic irony where we know the raikage isn’t the fastest, it is presented as fact so that the fact can be taken down by naruto to then make naruto look good, at no point was Gai involved in this. This is a crucial statement that held narrative purposes for the story, yet its supposed to be incorrect because Gai is a chad.
> 
> raikage was the speed hurdle for Naruto to overcome, not Gai, his lack of relevance during the point in the manga where naruto was supposed to become the fastest person alive speaks volumes.


Your conclusion is I WANT guy to be better than Ei4?

Lol.

I don’t _*want*_ anything concerning fiction.

Guy punches and kicks fast enough to light air on fire. That’s all-verse leg speed, it’s in double digit machs, which translates to running speed in some form.

The sooner you understand that Ei knew nothing about Guy, not even his name, you’ll understand the concept behind using logic.

A character statement isn’t a conclusion. It’s a supporting detail of an argument, it’s not a premise.

You’re using it as a premise, and you cannot even prove that he knew the character that, by feature, is faster then him.

So your “premise” is incomplete to begin with. 

Learn how to debate formally.


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> it’s in double digit machs, which translates to running speed in some form.



Don’t use IRL speed calcs, forest do death sasuke was faster then sound. He’d be the speed of sound which would make Gai’s fire stuff not that great.



DaVizWiz said:


> The sooner you understand that Ei knew nothing about Guy



It’s not about in universe who knows what it’s about what purpose the statement held narratively and what it was supposed to communicate to the reader to set up a climax. It’s about why the statement exists and why it’s placed here and what purpose it serves because it actually serves a purpose and it’s for Naruto to out speed the fastest person alive. Naruto needed to become the fastest person alive so he could have his Minato parallel, and to be the fastest he needed to outspeed the current fastest person, which spoiler warning wasn’t Gai. The raikage being the fastest person alive serves a purpose in the story and is a core narrative piece in the story, Gai doesn’t fit into that, he doesn’t serve the speed hurdle to overcome, nor does he serve as dramatic irony by being faster. Raikage being fastest has a narrative purpose, it doesn’t get dethroned by speculation about Gai.

bottom line, Naruto had to be the fastest, so he outsped the raikage, not Gai.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 15, 2019)

He was talking about his gated form. He never used gates because he forgot.


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## LostSelf (Nov 15, 2019)

Soul said:


> It's really simple. He merely believes he is the faster shinobi alive.



Shortest response being the one that nailed it the best.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Artistwannabe (Nov 15, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, I said he’s done things that put him on the same feature level.
> 
> WA Lee is probably above his level, as he succeeded in blitzing Madara in one go, something Ei repeatedly failed to accomplish with the supporting pressure and distraction of 4 additional Kage.


Keep in mind when Lee did that he was amped by Naruto's cloak, it was so potent that Kakashi implied he could do this:


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## J★J♥ (Nov 15, 2019)

He did not lie. He is fastest Ninja because Guy is classified as a Blue Beast


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## Cognitios (Nov 15, 2019)

Anyone else just appreciate how despite how Konoha has the most hax bloodlines and is home of the most powerful characters, despite the Senju and Uchiha gods. The jinjurikis, the Kekkei Genkais and stolen eyes, the passed on teachings from Hashirama all the way down to naruto, despite all of that the most powerful character to come out of Konoha had none of that.

 For a story about hard work and overcoming loneliness and making friends the true protagonist isn’t naruto, who is in the teacher lineage going back to Hashirama. He’s a descendant if the Sage of Six Paths through his mother and the son of the hokage. The host of the most powerful biju by no merit of his own. The reincarnation of a gods son. The true protagonist is Gai. 

Gai whose teammates were fodder, whose teacher isn’t even named. Whose father died to give his son a chance at life. Who was always optimistic, literally willing to put his life on the line so his student would take a surgery to become a shinobi again. Might Gai whose is the strongest non god character in the entire series, multiple tiers above the next character who got there due to hard work and not bloodlines or biju (third raikage I believe is next). You want a story of perseverance, of overcoming, personal growth, and strength. Well there’s only one in this manga and he doesn’t like ramen. It’s Might fucking Gai.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 15, 2019)

Quality post above, except Raikage comes from some fucked up lineage and they are born with skin tougher than steel and blood as dence as iron.


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## Zembie (Nov 15, 2019)

No, he didn't lie, he just had no idea who Gai was.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

I don’t see why this is being argued so hard at the point when that statement was made the Raikage was the fastest ninja that is until Naruto came along. Gai is only faster in the 8th gate. Other than that Ay is faster. Combat speed and travel speed are not the same.


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## Skaddix (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I don’t see why this is being argued so hard at the point when that statement was made the Raikage was the fastest ninja that is until Naruto came along. Gai is only faster in the 8th gate. Other than that Ay is faster. Combat speed and travel speed are not the same.



Really seems obvious to me...just a hater trying to couch his hatred of a character by obfuscating with some BS. You are a Sakura fan thought you be use to seeing it.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> No he's not. Gai and Naruto were faster than him


Nope. Not yet.


Mad Scientist said:


> What? Gai can go 8G. *That's part of his ability*. That's when he can peak at his top speed. Gai is objectively faster than A.


But he had not done so yet, and thus had at no point been faster than A4. That's how time works. 

You dont point at a baby and say, "she is faster than Usain Bolt" because she might be someday.


Even if you knew she _would_ be saying that she _is_ faster _is_ incorrect.


Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto didn't use Shunshin against A before he outperformed him. It's not about getting used to the form or not; he had more than one try against A and already had _enough_ training practice with KCM. Did he get used to using Shunshin in the fight or something? No. KCM Naruto's Shunshin is a part of _his_ ability. That makes him objectively faster than A during that entire scene.


He had not used Shunshin of that level yet and thus was not that fast yet. 

Same example as above, you want them to have titles for things that havent happened yet, it seems.

If you weren't going for such a clickbait title you could have asked "Was A4 correct about the current speed hierarchy?" Right?
Because he isnt close to lying. His statement was true at the current time.


Mad Scientist said:


> A4 also isn't the reader. He doesn't know who's the fastest. And if your argument is that he had intel on Gai, then you'd be contradicting yourself because 8G >>> A4.


He is the leader of the alliance and has access to Intel on every Shinobi. Guy simply had not surpassed him yet because 8th Gate Guy was at best a possibility that might or might not have ever been used. 

He literally had never existed at that point.


~Kakashi~ said:


> 8th Gate Gai did exist, though. 8th Gate wasn't exclusive to him, his father used it, Madara apparently knew of someone who used it as he was aware of the red vapor. Lee knew what what sekizo was, so there was written descriptions of the technique and it's abilities.
> 
> He just had no clue who or what a Might Gai was.


Having the _possibility_ of being faster because others had grown stronger does not mean that someone is _currently_ faster. 
And until he opened that Gate it was just possibility.

We have no idea how strong Dai or anyone else was at that point. None of them made any mention of speed being a thing they were thinking of with the 8th gate either. 

So it's a pretty big assumption to say that people should know he would be _faster_ than A4 rather than more powerful or anything. 

That and Dai couldn't even kill all of the swordsmen while in 8th Gate either so it not like we should assume he got a godlike statboost like Gai did.


Yall are acting like he should have said "Since Minato's death, there are no Shinobi faster than me! But a few are possibly able to including you with some more effort!" And _then_ returned to his conversation.


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## dergeist (Nov 15, 2019)

Raikage was foactoringnin FTG when he made that statement and that is the context. The fastest ninja alive is actually Obito, but he doesn't know of his existence. I'm assuming he knew Itachi was dead since he was faster than KCM Naruto, and he was excluding KB.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Really seems obvious to me...just a hater trying to couch his hatred of a character by obfuscating with some BS. You are a Sakura fan thought you be use to seeing it.


You never truly get used to it...


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 15, 2019)

I'm not doing this again, lol. You're being excessively nitpicky and looking at things in retrospect.

A4 was a measuring stick for KCM Naruto. He was essentially there just to show that Naruto had caught up to his father, this is a common narrative technique throughout the entire manga (replicating something your mentor/parent did to show that you've caught up or surpassed them). His claim being false would serve no purpose in the overarching story and for Naruto's own development.

Naruto had to _become _faster than A4, he didn't start out that way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Naruto wasn't faster until he proved it.
> 
> That's how proof works.


Naruto was only _established_ as faster _until_ he proved it - that _does not_ mean he didn't have the exact same ability just beforehand. Take this scene for instance...
*Link Removed*
We know that this _exact_ KCM Naruto (who hadn't yet proved he could outspeed A) was a faster character than the Raikage here, _because_ he literally just proved that he was faster (and A affirmed it) a moment later. Naruto's abilities didn't just suddenly change.

_If_ he was slower, then he _wouldn't_ have been able to dodge it. But we can be 100% sure that he _would_ dodge it (i.e. high probability, not just a possibility), because we have hindsight (i.e. _he did_ dodge it.) Naruto didn't just gain some new ability. He already _had_ the ability. It was a part of him. Him only _showing_ it after doesn't mean he was slower _before_ showing it, unless you can prove he _didn't_ have the ability to outspeed him (which would be preposterous).



ShinAkuma said:


> That's what is known as *nonsense*.
> 
> Perhaps you should look up the word "potential"?


Do you actually have an argument here? Explain why I'm incorrect about the assertion.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> A4's words are specifically about what has been shown up to that point.


Do you have any modicum of proof that his words were specifically about what has been shown up to that point in the manga?

He clearly stated this: "*There is no shinobi faster than me.* *Ever since the Fourth Hokage died!*"

The statement itself directly establishes that he believed at the time that he was the fastest shinobi currently living. He was wrong. Naruto, Gai and Obito were all currently living shinobi at the time who were capable of outspeeding him and therefore would be faster than him, which would serve to contradict his point.
You would be contradicting yourself because we hadn't even yet seen Minato outspeed him when he made the statement.



ShinAkuma said:


> Since Gai hasn't yet used 8th gate his speed is still not known and wouldn't be quantified.


Doesn't matter. We can use hindsight or even approximation to clearly establish that Gai was much faster than him at the time i.e. he was wrong about being the fastest living shinobi. As I explained above, KCM Naruto just before surpassing him didn't show he was faster, but we know he was very well capable of outspeeding him i.e. KCM Naruto was faster than A, he just didn't show it until he actually did. Similarly, 8G is part of Gai's power.



ShinAkuma said:


> The narrative intends for A4 to be the fastest. We are told that he is post Minato. Gai exists post Minato and so does his 7th gate.


You have no proof that the narrative intended A4 to be established as the fastest - it's simply an unsubtantiated claim. I would agree that it intended to _portray_ him as super fast. Either way, intent or not, the statement was itself objectively incorrect. He wasn't the fastest at the time.



ShinAkuma said:


> No it's not.
> 
> 8th gate Gai does not yet exist when A4 said he was the fastest.


8G did exist though. It was made clear WA Gai could use the 8G. 8G has been referred to in other areas. Just because Naruto didn't show Shunshin before outspeeding A doesn't mean it didn't exist for him.



ShinAkuma said:


> A4 cannot consider things that do not yet exist in the shinobi world.


Saying 8G "didn't exist", when it clearly did, just sounds silly.



ShinAkuma said:


> For the same reason he isn't considering Kaguya he cannot consider 8th gate.


Kaguya _wasn't even_ around! Naruto and Gai _were_. 8G is a part of Gai's power - it's not like it didn't exist - otherwise there would be no such thing as "Eight Inner Gates Formation".

_If_ 8G did not exist, it would never have been mentioned anywhere in Naruto. Of course 8G existed.



ShinAkuma said:


> Nobody did surpass him in speed *at the time he said his words*.
> 
> Naruto only surpassed him *after*.


That doesn't address my point. I know full well that nobody (bar arguably Obito) surpassed him in speed at the time he said his words - my point is that regardless of Naruto surpassing him after or not, he was _still_ faster simply because he had the ability to outspeed him. Just because Naruto didn't _show_ it before surpassing him doesn't mean he _wasn't _faster. We know in hindsight that Naruto was faster; he still had the exact same abilities before surpassing him.



ShinAkuma said:


> He is the fastest tho.
> 
> You are the one with the problem with that fact.
> 
> ...


Yes you are. You're constraining what he said to fit just "standard ninja". He literally thought he was the fastest living shinobi at the time. He didn't say he was the fastest standard shinobi at the time. Already explained why your 8G point is moot. I know Naruto becoming the new yellow flash didn't yet exist - not sure why you bring that up.



ShinAkuma said:


> His words are true until proven to be false, which Naruto proves shortly after, which Gai proves later in the story with 8th gate, which aliens prove much later with their reveal.


No they're not. Anyone can make a claim. They're not necessarily true. He literally stated he was the fastest shinobi since the Fourth's death. Shinobi with alien-tier powers being outside of his expectations when he made the statement is _his_ fault, not the shinobi's. Gai is a shinobi, not an alien; him having god-tier speed is because of his strenuous efforts. All a part of his ability.



ShinAkuma said:


> Except they weren't, like literally as Naruto didn't get faster than A4 until *after he said he was the fastest*.
> 
> Then Gai 70 chapters later or whatever.
> 
> Then aliens and Boruto and whoever.


Addressed.



Siskebabas said:


> You're overcomplicating these matters to the INSANE degree when truth is much simplier, part 1 does NOT equal part 2.


Nope, you are.



Siskebabas said:


> I as told to other poster its was impressive that tobirama casted suiton without source when in part 2 Kisame spits puts literal lakes.


So? Both impressive.



Siskebabas said:


> You just refuse to take any other argument regardless whats being Said, most poster here in this thread say same shit, yet you keep arguing just for sake of arguing.


If you don't like actual debate, leave.



Siskebabas said:


> If you think that kishi in his mind writing part 1 though his dude gai with his 8 gate is going combat such thing as juubi jinchuriki, then what ever suits you


*Keyword*: if



Skaddix said:


> Shit Gaara wasn't even a Jin and Shukaku wasnt a Bijuu either so obviously Kishi didnt have all this shit planned in Part I


Why point out the blatantly obvious?



Orochimaru op said:


> @Mad Scientist Raikage had no idea how fast KCM Naruto was, which was why it was a big deal when KCM naruto outsped him because it meant Naruto outdoes the faster person currently alive.


Yeah, I get that. V1 A had at least a rough idea of KCM Naruto's speed during the fight. After Naruto surpassed him, he stated that he gave Naruto a "test", which could indicate that he believed KCM Naruto may have been able to surpass him. Either way, regardless of portrayal, it doesn't change A's statement being objectively wrong.



Orochimaru op said:


> Gai was known as the leafs green beats because he built his reputation on the seventh gate, no one knew what he was like with all gates open because he had never done it before, so they were going off seventh gate


Are you saying A knew about 7G Gai's speed?



Orochimaru op said:


> All gates opened Gai speed >>>>>>>>>>>>KCM Naruto speed > Raikage speed > seventh gate Gai speed


You think 7G Gai is << than KCM Naruto's speed? You have got to be kidding me.

Raikage A and KCM Naruto wouldn't even be able to _dream_ of achieving the feat below. A _much, much_ weaker Madara (while distracted) than below reacted to RCM A. KCM Naruto got trashed by Obito yet base Gai pressures that same Obito. RSM Naruto is compared to 6G Lee. 6G Gai saves Kakashi from a TSB. 6G Gai blitzed Kisame. SM Minato + Support + FTG to get within attacking distance in an instant got sliced and kicked by the same Madara below. I think some people don't understand at all just how ridiculously fast 7G Gai is.





Cherry said:


> @Mad Scientist
> 
> Um everything you said still doesn’t ignore the fact that it’s a story, and as the story progresses we learn more as we go on. You can obviously say A4 was wrong at the time because you finished and read the manga, but had the manga still been going on we’d still have to wait for the story to progress.
> 
> 6 gated guy pressuring Kisame with his speed doesn’t magically let us know how fast the 8 gate is, we also didn’t see into the future that KCM Naruto would surpass A4’s shunsin


Well, you have to consider that it's just a statement from a somewhat arrogant/rash-appearing individual. People take what he said too literally. They think he actually _was_ the fastest at the time *just because he said so*, even though he wasn't. Naruto, Gai and Obito were all faster than him at the time.



Zembie said:


> No, he didn't lie, he just had no idea who Gai was.


Gai was neither a kage nor did he hold any "special"  in the WA. I wouldn't be surprised if Gai could have just been some random shinobi to the Raikage or maybe the Raikage had never even heard of him. Even if the meeting guys _did_ hear of him, to think that they would discuss the Eight Gates is a bit far-fetched. As far as they knew, he was probably only a skilled fighter to them, which is why he was assigned to the Third Division.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I don’t see why this is being argued so hard at the point when that statement was made the Raikage was the fastest ninja that is until Naruto came along. Gai is only faster in the 8th gate. Other than that Ay is faster. Combat speed and travel speed are not the same.


Gai is faster with even just the 7th Gate (read above). Regardless, Eight Gates are part of _his_ ability. Just because he would need to use them to demonstrate a higher speed than the Raikage doesn't mean that he's slower. It means that he's faster because he's fully capable of outspeeding him. Same thing with Naruto. Just before Naruto actually established that he can surpass A's speed, he was faster before, he just didn't show it _yet_. But Naruto still had the exact same abilities just before and right after he surpassed A.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Nope. Not yet.


Yes they were faster than him. Just because they'd need to use a very high level of power doesn't mean that they're slower. _Because_ they were perfectly capable of being able to outspeed him, that means they were in fact faster. Gates are part of Gai's abilities just as much as RCM is part of A's and Shunshin is part of Naruto's. 




Hi no Ishi said:


> But he had not done so yet, and thus had at no point been faster than A4. That's how time works.
> 
> You dont point at a baby and say, "she is faster than Usain Bolt" because she might be someday.
> 
> Even if you knew she _would_ be saying that she _is_ faster _is_ incorrect.


Completely flawed logic on your end. A toddler wouldn't at the time have speed faster even if she would eventually outspeed Bolt. It's different for Naruto and Gai. The moment before Naruto had outsped A, he had the _exact_ same abilities as the moment right _after_ he had outsped him. Naruto's abilities didn't change. He _was_ faster than him, he just hadn't shown it yet. Him not showing it doesn't mean he wasn't faster. 

Same with Gai. 8G Gai at the time would have been _much_ faster than V2 A. 8G is a part of Gai. V2 is a part of A. Gai is much faster than A.




Hi no Ishi said:


> He had not used Shunshin of that level yet and thus was not that fast yet.
> 
> Same example as above, you want them to have titles for things that havent happened yet, it seems.
> 
> ...


Again, him not using it doesn't mean he didn't have it. No titles. Gai and Naruto are faster than A. People can read the thread. I made it explicitly clear I did not mean he was actually lying, but rather that he was misinformed. His statement is merely objectively false because while he had declared himself to be the fastest, little did he know that there were others who were faster than him.



Hi no Ishi said:


> He is the leader of the alliance and has access to Intel on every Shinobi. Guy simply had not surpassed him yet because 8th Gate Guy was at best a possibility that might or might not have ever been used.
> 
> He literally had never existed at that point.


So you think he spent his time looking at Guy, who didn't even occupy any special positions, who the author indicates is an overlooked character? Much less discussing Gai's 7th Gate in particular? 

It was made beyond clear that WA Gai was capable of using the Gates. What?? Of course he existed. 




Hi no Ishi said:


> Having the _possibility_ of being faster because others had grown stronger does not mean that someone is _currently_ faster.
> And until he opened that Gate it was just possibility.
> 
> We have no idea how strong Dai or anyone else was at that point. None of them made any mention of speed being a thing they were thinking of with the 8th gate either.
> ...


Not just possibility. Probability. 8G, which is part of Gai's power, would be 100% likely to outspeed A, meaning Gai was faster.

That just adds to the idea that they only discussed Gai insofar as him being a strong fighter.

No. I'm not saying that at all. How on Earth would A know about 7G Gai's speed?

We don't know how that battle went exactly to make such implications like you did. Pretty sure Gai is > Dai too.

It was clear that A was not considering exceptions of others being faster than him when he said that. He outright declared he was the fastest shinobi. Him saying that his attack was simply a test does, however, indicate that he considered at least the possibility of Naruto being faster than him. But A) stretching that to Gai is just far-fetched and B) changing his statement is changing what he meant: You think he was considering the possibility of a few being able to outspeed him but where exactly is the evidence for that being the context? As far as I'm aware, he comes across as quite a rash/implusive/arrogant individual.



dergeist said:


> Raikage was foactoringnin FTG when he made that statement and that is the context. The fastest ninja alive is actually Obito, but he doesn't know of his existence. I'm assuming he knew Itachi was dead since he was faster than KCM Naruto, and he was excluding KB.


He did know of his existence, insofar as knowing him as "the masked man" or "Madara"... _And _he got outsped by him too.
*Link Removed*



BlackHeartedImp said:


> I'm not doing this again, lol. You're being excessively nitpicky and looking at things in retrospect.
> 
> A4 was a measuring stick for KCM Naruto. He was essentially there just to show that Naruto had caught up to his father, this is a common narrative technique throughout the entire manga (replicating something your mentor/parent did to show that you've caught up or surpassed them). His claim being false would serve no purpose in the overarching story and for Naruto's own development.
> 
> Naruto had to _become _faster than A4, he didn't start out that way.


Sigh... I know full well what the purpose of that scene was. Only reason I'm bringing it up as an issue is because _NBD posters_ take it way too liberally, when it's literally and objectively false. And if you're "not doing this again. lol," then feel free to leave.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto was only _established_ as faster _until_ he proved it - that _does not_ mean he didn't have the exact same ability just beforehand. Take this scene for instance...
> *Link Removed*
> We know that this _exact_ KCM Naruto (who hadn't yet proved he could outspeed A) was a faster character than the Raikage here, _because_ he literally just proved that he was faster (and A affirmed it) a moment later. Naruto's abilities didn't just suddenly change.
> 
> ...


I'll leave when my lunch is finished cooking. This is my entertainment until then


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> I'll leave when my lunch is finished cooking. This is my entertainment until then


Hey I could use the same thing you always tell me. Don't take it too seriously. When you're in my threads, as long as you're civil, you can kick back, relax, and debate as long as you like.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Hey I could use the same thing you always tell me. Don't take it too seriously. When you're in my threads, as long as you're civil, you can kick back, relax, and debate as long as you like.


I never take your threads seriously. I lurk most of the time anyway, just searching for funny posts. I know if I get sucked in, I'll have to use my full power to not be driven insane by your madness, and now's not the time to unveil that power


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Gai is faster with even just the 7th Gate (read above). Regardless, Eight Gates are part of _his_ ability. Just because he would need to use them to demonstrate a higher speed than the Raikage doesn't mean that he's slower. It means that he's faster because he's fully capable of outspeeding him. Same thing with Naruto. Just before Naruto actually established that he can surpass A's speed, he was faster before, he just didn't show it _yet_. But Naruto still had the exact same abilities just before and right after he surpassed A.


I dont believe he is faster he strikes faster but he doesn't travel that fast. Eight gates equals death so thats why I and others dont count it towards Gai's regular kit. He is considered a seperate character. The thing is Ay's statement was right until it was proven wrong thise feats did not exist at the time.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I dont believe he is faster he strikes faster but he doesn't travel that fast.


Gai even in 7G is definitely is faster than A, but we can agree to disagree here.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Eight gates equals death so thats why I and others dont count it towards Gai's regular kit. He is considered a seperate character.


I can see what you mean. But we can consider 7G Gai and KCM Naruto though.



SakuraLover16 said:


> The thing is Ay's statement was right until it was proven wrong thise feats did not exist at the time.


Imagine there are three people: Person X, Person Y, and Person Z.

Person X is extremely fast among the shinobi world.
Person Y is also extremely fast among the shinobi world.
Y outperforms X.
X thinks Y's the fastest. Y dies. X now thinks he's the fastest.
X declares to Z that X is the fastest.
What X didn't know was that Z is actually faster than X.

That's essentially what my argument is. How and why would one expect X to know every single shinobi's ability. X doesn't just sit there thinking about who's the fastest? He's only blurting out what he thinks he knows to be true to him, and doesn't think through everything. People don't just sit and evaluate every little thing when they say something. That explains A) his rash behaviour at times and B) why he made the statement even though someone else (Obito) already outsped him, that is, if you consider that someone else to have been outsped by Person Y (Minato).


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Gai even in 7G is definitely is faster than A, but we can agree to disagree here.


Yes we will


Mad Scientist said:


> I can see what you mean. But we can consider 7G Gai and KCM Naruto though.


KCM yes 7G no...


Mad Scientist said:


> That's essentially what my argument is. How and why would one expect X to know every single shinobi's ability. X doesn't just sit there thinking about who's the fastest? He's only blurting out what he thinks he knows to be true to him, and doesn't think through everything. People don't just sit and evaluate every little thing when they say something. That explains A) his rash behaviour at times and B) why he made the statement even though someone else (Obito) already outsped him, that is, if you consider that someone else to have been outsped by Person Y (Minato).


Tsunade didn’t counter his claim and he was the fastest until we see Naruto surpass him. Where did Obito outspeed Ay? Combat speed and Travel speed are being confused. That’s how I see it anyway.


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## Symmetry (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You think 7G Gai is << than KCM Naruto's speed? You have got to be kidding me.



If I was to be specific I suppose it would be 

KCM Naruto => raikage => 7G Gai, but I wasn’t splitting hairs 




Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto got trashed by Obito yet base Gai pressures that same Obito.




This with context only proves Gai is a much smarter cqc fighter then Naruto. I’m willing to say 7G Gai’s combat speed is above the raikage’s and maybe Naruto’s, and his cqc intellect is better then either of them, but in terms of speed like travel or running I’d say he is third. 

this feat against Obito was contingent on a factor that Obito could not counter attack if Gai at any point touched him, so it was a perfect situation for Gai to show of his cqc skill because it was a very good situation that played to his strengths. 




Mad Scientist said:


> SM Minato + Support + FTG to get within attacking distance in an instant got sliced and kicked by the same Madara below. I think some people don't understand at all just how ridiculously fast 7G Gai is.



The madara thing doesn’t show much because Madara wasn’t particularly trying. Sasuke tagged Orochimaru with fire style, but Orochimaru wasn’t  really trying to stop it. Same thing here. 

as I have said before, the point of the raikage’s statement narratively is to establish he is the fastest so that when Naruto out speeds him he can gain the title of fastest ninja so he can have his little Minato parallel, so for the story to set up that father son parallel Naruto needed to be the fastest, so he outsped the current fastest. Gai doesn’t play a role in this. The raikage is the hurdle Naruto needs to jump over to be the fastest for the narrative and plot, not Gai.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> *The madara thing doesn’t show much because Madara wasn’t particularly trying*. Sasuke tagged Orochimaru with fire style, but Orochimaru wasn’t  really trying to stop it. Same thing here.


1. Does this look like the face of a man who is not serious?

2. Why did he try to kill Gai with the staff?
3. Why did he try to kill Gai with the TSB?
4. Why was he "!" a total of three times?
5. Why wasn't Gai owned like Minato with support was despite both senjutsu and taijutsu being able to potentially hurt him?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yes we will
> 
> KCM yes 7G no...
> 
> Tsunade didn’t counter his claim and he was the fastest until we see Naruto surpass him. Where did Obito outspeed Ay? Combat speed and Travel speed are being confused. That’s how I see it anyway.


Obito at FKS. We can leave him out even though that seems illogical. Why would Tsunade know how fast 7G Gai is, and more importantly, why would she want to contradict A about such trivial matters compared to the safety of Naruto who she actively tried to protect?


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Obito at FKS. We can leave him out even though that seems illogical. Why would Tsunade know how fast 7G Gai is, and more importantly, why would she want to contradict A about such trivial matters compared to the safety of Naruto who she actively tried to protect?


Tsunade’s job is to know about her Shinobi’s abilities in order to give them missions. The point was Gai was not mentioned even after the confrontation. The scene was meant to confirm that Naruto had surpassed Ay in speed.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade’s job is to know about her Shinobi’s abilities in order to give them missions. The point was Gai was not mentioned even after the confrontation. The scene was meant to confirm that Naruto had surpassed Ay in speed.


That doesn't mean she knows about all their abilities and exact parameters. Like I would agree she might be likely to know that Gai is able to go 7G, but knowing about the speed of him in it or how fast or hard he punches etc... That's going a little too far. Again, contradicting A after the event when they have much more important things to do just seems trivial. I agree the scene was meant to confirm Naruto surpassed A and that A and Minato are meant to be seen as some of the fastest in the current shinobi world. The speed establishment for Naruto at least was necessary, and as a parallel to Minato served both an important backstory plus it was cool.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That doesn't mean she knows about all their abilities and exact parameters. Like I would agree she might be likely to know that Gai is able to go 7G, but knowing about the speed of him in it or how fast or hard he punches etc... That's going a little too far. Again, contradicting A after the event when they have much more important things to do just seems trivial.


Well we are already given an idea about how fast he punches, he doesn’t hit harder than her, and he is not fast in travel speed like the Raikage. Those things are literally told to us and we have seen so.


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## Symmetry (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. Does this look like the face of a man who is not serious?
> 
> 2. Why did he try to kill Gai with the staff?
> 3. Why did he try to kill Gai with the TSB?
> ...




This is the equivalent to


*Link Removed* 

Orochimaru was also surprised and caught off guard and was actually hit by Sauske next pannel. Does this subsection mean Sasuke is kage tier because he can “pressure” Orochimaru?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Well we are already given an idea about how fast he punches, he doesn’t hit harder than her, and he is not fast in travel speed like the Raikage. Those things are literally told to us and we have seen so.


How doesn't he hit harder than her? His Hirudora, which people sometimes refer to as his strongest punch, caused a shockwave that dwarfed the turtle island and it is described as if it leaves no remnants behind, except the blue perspiration or something. Clearly much stronger than _anything_ Tsunade has shown in her life. And why not? This man trained his entire life, his heart, soul and body to achieve mastery over the gates. The penultimate gate, why wouldn't that be much stronger than Tsunade's punch of all? You know this guy pressured a Juubi Jin with speed that surpassed his expectation even when SM Minato with help got zero diffed? Raikage isn't too far from Tsunade in power, as Edo Madara doesn't suggest as much, but he says she's slower. 7G Gai is much faster than A considering a MUCH weaker Madara reacted to him whilst distracted.

No one ever said he's not fast in travel speed. Right in P2 he blitzed Kisame with the 6th Gate, and 7G is even faster than that so his speed is now going off the charts. And 8G... I have no words for that.

But I should re-emphasise that these shinobi don't know everyone else's abilities. Even the Chief Commander, Gaara, was shocked at 7G Gai's inhumane speed, and this guy moderately intercepted V2 A vs EMS Sasuke.



Orochimaru op said:


> This is the equivalent to
> 
> 
> *Link Removed*
> ...


LOL no Oro was playing with him, we know for a fact Oro is tiers ahead of that Sasuke lol.

Different situation for JJ Madara. This guy is not joking around anymore. Doesn't change the facts above, read please. Mads took any and all chances he could get to really kill him. Not like oro situation bro.


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## Symmetry (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Mads took any and all chances he could get to really kill him. Not like oro situation bro.



Orochimaru launched more attacks on kid Sauske then JJ madara did on Gai. 




Mad Scientist said:


> LOL no Oro was playing with him, we know for a fact Oro is tiers ahead of that Sasuke lol.




And we know for a fact JJ Madara is tiers ahead of 7G Gai. 


Your premise for Gai being at such a level is based on Madara actually trying, but if we apply this logic to the Orochimaru right which is the same thing, Sauske then becomes kage tier. Doesn’t work there and doesn’t work here.  Madara was insulted Gai didn’t go 8th gate.


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## jesusus (Nov 15, 2019)

A4 is like CW Flash. Supposedly the fastest but jobs and demonstrates genin lvl IQ.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Orochimaru launched more attacks on kid Sauske then JJ madara did on Gai.






Orochimaru op said:


> And we know for a fact JJ Madara is tiers ahead of 7G Gai.
> 
> 
> Your premise for Gai being at such a level is based on Madara actually trying, but if we apply this logic to the Orochimaru right which is the same thing, Sauske then becomes kage tier. Doesn’t work there and doesn’t work here.  Madara was insulted Gai didn’t go 8th gate.


As if Madara wasn't serious. We'll just end the debate here since obviously Kishimoto's exclamation marks and facial features and hype buildup don't mean jack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> How doesn't he hit harder than her? His Hirudora, which people sometimes refer to as his strongest punch, caused a shockwave that dwarfed the turtle island and it is described as if it leaves no remnants behind, except the blue perspiration or something. Clearly much stronger than _anything_ Tsunade has shown in her life. And why not? This man trained his entire life, his heart, soul and body to achieve mastery over the gates. The penultimate gate, why wouldn't that be much stronger than Tsunade's punch of all? You know this guy pressured a Juubi Jin with speed that surpassed his expectation even when SM Minato with help got zero diffed? Raikage isn't too far from Tsunade in power, as Edo Madara doesn't suggest as much, but he says she's slower. 7G Gai is much faster than A considering a MUCH weaker Madara reacted to him whilst distracted.


Except it did leave something behind in the form of Kisame. He can’t use Hirudora back to back like Tsunade can punch and her punch was compared to Base Sakura’s saying Sakura’s may be be stronger and we know how huge that one is and how often it can be used. Tsunade’s greatest technique boosts her power and healing and can be said to be her greatest technique. Why should her techniques be rated less than Gai’s when she put her all into creating it and mastering her craft. Orochi OP brings up a good point Orochimaru being surprised by Kid Sasuke doesn’t mean all of a sudden that he was a match for him the same applies to Gai. Using remotely any of his real strength Madara would have less than negged Gai. Gai’s taijutsu surpassed his expectations not speed. Madara says Tsunade is slower but stronger not just that she is slow. Also as I have said before Gai has superior striking speed so and Raikage has travel speed the two are not even remotely the same thing. Also Madara reacted by just throwing up his Susanoo which takes nothing but a thought.


Mad Scientist said:


> No one ever said he's not fast in travel speed. Right in P2 he blitzed Kisame with the 6th Gate, and 7G is even faster than that so his speed is now going off the charts. And 8G... I have no words for that.
> 
> But I should re-emphasise that these shinobi don't know everyone else's abilities. Even the Chief Commander, Gaara, was shocked at 7G Gai's inhumane speed, and this guy moderately intercepted V2 A vs EMS Sasuke.


Kisame isn’t stated to be any type of speedster. Gaara was shocked at his striking speed that is why he said those movements are inhuman which is why there is an illustration of Gai striking. Also the Raikage had knocked Sasuke over and was doing a leg drop that is nowhere near as fast as a strike considering he was falling and used gravity to do so.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except it did leave something behind in the form of Kisame. He can’t use Hirudora back to back like Tsunade can punch and her punch was compared to Base Sakura’s saying Sakura’s may be be stronger and we know how huge that one is and how often it can be used. Tsunade’s greatest technique boosts her power and healing and can be said to be her greatest technique. Why should her techniques be rated less than Gai’s when she put her all into creating it and mastering her craft. Orochi OP brings up a good point Orochimaru being surprised by Kid Sasuke doesn’t mean all of a sudden that he was a match for him the same applies to Gai. Using remotely any of his real strength Madara would have less than negged Gai. Gai’s taijutsu surpassed his expectations not speed. Madara says Tsunade is slower but stronger not just that she is slow. Also as I have said before Gai has superior striking speed so and Raikage has travel speed the two are not even remotely the same thing. Also Madara reacted by just throwing up his Susanoo which takes nothing but a thought.
> 
> Kisame isn’t stated to be any type of speedster. Gaara was shocked at his striking speed that is why he said those movements are inhuman which is why there is an illustration of Gai striking. Also the Raikage had knocked Sasuke over and was doing a leg drop that is nowhere near as fast as a strike considering he was falling and used gravity to do so.


1. Doesn't matter about using it repeatedly. Hirudora punches way harder than anything Tsunade can dish out.
2. Oro OP's example is terrible. Oro was playing with Sasuke and was tiers ahead of him, whereas we got a direct comparison between 7G Gai's attempt vs JJ Madara and SM Minato's with support, where the latter failed miserably and the former actually superseded Mads' expectations; we had the build up hype; we had Gaara and Minato's statements; we had JJ Mads try to truly kill him twice unlike Oro vs kid Sasuke (lel).
3. Madara already tried to use his strength lol (as noted above). 7G cannot punch Madara strongly, but he sure as hell is pretty fast. For a brief exchange, he left Madara with almost no gaps, until Hirudora, and even then Mads failed. Whereas we have RCM A being reacted to by a *much* weaker Madara.
4. Yes Madara says that but think about it like this... JJ Mads >>>>>>>>> Edo Mads in speed if not more. A > Edo mads in speed. Tsunade is compared to A. But Gai performs _much_ better than Edo Mads i.e. JJ Mads >> 7G Gai >>>>> A/Edo Mads/Tsunade.
5. We literally saw Raikage's travel speed and 7G Gai's travel speed against the same guy (obviously with Gai facing the astronomically superior one) 7G is >>>>> A.
6. Kisame is Itachi's peer if that means anything, dude can tussle with V2 Bee who is V2 A's and KCM Naruto's peer so of course he can be a speedster in a sense. Dude can react well and overpower base Gai who Obito was pressured by.
7. No the guillotine drop was obviously fast. Sasuke used Enton Amaterasu as well. Obviously very fast things happening there. Gaara intercepted it and EMS sasuke praised Gaara shortly after for blocking his Amaterasu later.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. Doesn't matter about using it repeatedly. Hirudora punches way harder than anything Tsunade can dish out.


We cannot confuse flash with substance. He pushed Madara’s Susanoo away with a Hirudora the same thing Tsunade did to a larger version with a punch


Mad Scientist said:


> 2. Oro OP's example is terrible. Oro was playing with Sasuke and was tiers ahead of him, whereas we got a direct comparison between 7G Gai's attempt vs JJ Madara and SM Minato's with support, where the latter failed miserably and the former actually superseded Mads' expectations; we had the build up hype; we had Gaara and Minato's statements; we had JJ Mads try to truly kill him twice unlike Oro vs kid Sasuke (lel).


Mads was still playing with 7G Gai. He basically showed as much easily negging everything Gai threw at him in the 7th gate he was surprised by Gai’s striking speed. Gaara claims as much when we are shown that statement with Gai doing multiple attacks in different positions. Oro OP statement was that a exclamation point can also be used with inferior opponents as well. Orochicakes was never in any danger. Just like there are multiple tiers between him and Sasuke is the same for Gai and Mads.


Mad Scientist said:


> 3. Madara already tried to use his strength lol (as noted above). 7G cannot punch Madara strongly, but he sure as hell is pretty fast. For a brief exchange, he left Madara with almost no gaps, until Hirudora, and even then Mads failed. Whereas we have RCM A being reacted to by a *much* weaker Madara.


Again that was striking speed the way Ay and Gai fight are also different. Madara blocked that Hirudora as well.


Mad Scientist said:


> 4. Yes Madara says that but think about it like this... JJ Mads >>>>>>>>> Edo Mads in speed if not more. A > Edo mads in speed. Tsunade is compared to A. But Gai performs _much_ better than Edo Mads i.e. JJ Mads >> 7G Gai >>>>> A/Edo Mads/Tsunade.


You also need to understand that Madara didn’t really try to get rid of Gai until the eighth gate with the TSB. 


Mad Scientist said:


> 5. We literally saw Raikage's travel speed and 7G Gai's travel speed against the same guy. 7G is >>>>> A.


 No it wasn’t travel speed...


Mad Scientist said:


> 6. Kisame is Itachi's peer if that means anything, dude can tussle with V2 Bee who is V2 A's and KCM Naruto's peer so of course he can be a speedster in a sense. Dude can react well and overpower base Gai who Obito was pressured by.


Bee is not faster than Ay....


Mad Scientist said:


> 7. No the guillotine drop was obviously fast. Sasuke used Enton Amaterasu as well. Obviously very fast things happening there. Gaara intercepted it and EMS sasuke praised Gaara shortly after for blocking his Amaterasu later.


Enton is not faster than him spawning it which is why Gaara blocked it. Also the guillotine drop is a drop.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> You also need to understand that Madara didn’t really try to get rid of Gai until the eighth gate with the TSB.


Yes he did.
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*
Madara trying to kill 7G Gai/Gai b48G is *not* debatable.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yes he did.
> *Link Removed*
> *Link Removed*
> Madara trying to kill 7G Gai/Gai b48G is *not* debatable.


I guess I was wrong still its not like going for the kill is something only unique to Gai


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## Symmetry (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> As if Madara wasn't serious. We'll just end the debate here since obviously Kishimoto's exclamation marks and facial features and hype buildup don't mean jack.




Exclamation points? Orochimaru has them too so that’s a moot point.


Also it’s a literal fact Orochimaru launched  more attacks against genin sasuke then JJ madara did against 7G Gai. 

you talk about hype but ignore A4’s direct statement of being the fastest beside KCM?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I guess I was wrong still its not like going for the kill is something only unique to Gai






Orochimaru op said:


> Exclamation points? Orochimaru has them too so that’s a moot point.
> 
> 
> Also it’s a literal fact Orochimaru launched  more attacks against genin sasuke then JJ madara did against 7G Gai.
> ...


I won't be able to convince either of you at this rate, but it's been fun, thanks for playing.


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## Symmetry (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I won't be able to convince either of you at this rate, but it's been fun, thanks for playing.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 15, 2019)




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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I won't be able to convince either of you at this rate, but it's been fun, thanks for playing.


Lol I was just about to say we would be old people by the time we stopped debating lol GG


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto was only _established_ as faster _until_ he proved it - that _does not_ mean he didn't have the exact same ability just beforehand. Take this scene for instance...


Man, I honestly really cant tell if you're just trolling us all sometimes.
Like this doesn't even make sense as a sentence, but here we are.

Once you go faster, then you are faster. Not before. 

Before a thing happens it's a possibility. After that it's an actuality. 

Do you really not understand the difference? 
Or how time works?


Mad Scientist said:


> We know that this _exact_ KCM Naruto (who hadn't yet proved he could outspeed A) was a faster character than the Raikage here, _because_ he literally just proved that he was faster (and A affirmed it) a moment later. Naruto's abilities didn't just suddenly change.
> 
> _If_ he was slower, then he _wouldn't_ have been able to dodge it. But we can be 100% sure that he _would_ dodge it (i.e. high probability, not just a possibility), because we have hindsight (i.e. _he did_ dodge it.) Naruto didn't just gain some new ability. He already _had_ the ability. It was a part of him. Him only _showing_ it after doesn't mean he was slower _before_ showing it, unless you can prove he _didn't_ have the ability to outspeed him (which would be preposterous).


This is wrong as a irl concept and as a manga concept. 

Your whole premise is based on people not being able to get better in battle even though it happens in almost every fight the Fate bros have in the entire freaking manga.
Its pure nonsense.

Naruto had a limit of 2 Rasenshruiken during training that and it only worked 50% of the time according g to Yamato . Later that day he did 3 vs Kazuku. 

Where is the "Obvious Bullshit: why was Yamato lying!?!" Thread? 

Could it be that like basically ever other reader you understood that Naruto got better during battle?

And the preposterous thing is you asking for proof that Naruto couldn't outspeed the Raikage when he repeatedly failed to do so on panel already.
 As you know already, of course, but choose to ignore.

Unless you see Naruto breaking his ankle by shoving his foot into a wall every time he uses Shunshin then he *OBVIOUSLY * got better as he went along.

Progression is a thing. Outspeeding V2 A4>> Getting outsped repeatedly by V1 A4 >>>>>>>>>>>> Breaking your frickin ankle in a wall when you Shunshin.



Mad Scientist said:


> Yes they were faster than him. Just because they'd need to use a very high level of power doesn't mean that they're slower.





Mad Scientist said:


> _Because_ they were perfectly capable of being able to outspeed him, that means they were in fact faster. Gates are part of Gai's abilities just as much as RCM is part of A's and Shunshin is part of Naruto's.




Again time traveling arguments are nonsense. They are just illogic.

Let's break it down. 

Guy is a character. He was born, he grows, he ages, the whole 9. 

(A) When he is in the academy he is not faster than A4 just because he will one day open a gate he has never opened and become faster than A4 due to it.

(B) When he is a teenager he is not faster than A4 just because he will one day open a gate he has never opened and become faster than A4 due to it.

(C) In Part 1, he is not faster than A4 just because he will one day open a gate he has never opened and become faster than A4 due to it.

(D) in the beginning of Part 2, he is not faster than A4 just because he will one day open a gate he has never opened and become faster than A4 due to it.

(E) In the WA when he is using 7th Gate, which he has had for some time, he is not faster than A4 just because he will one day open a gate he has never opened and become faster than A4 due to it.

(F) Finally, in the war arc he opens the 8th gate and becomes faster than A4 for the first time.


Point in time F is not now suddenly true of all previous points. That's not now continuity works.

The second he became faster he was faster. Not before. 

Saying "He has the potential to do be thing but has not" is not the equivalent of "He is currently doing that thing"

Not every person with an axe is an axe-murderer because they own an axe and could potentially hit people with it at any point. 

Disclaimer: Please dont murder anyone or git them with an axe.


Mad Scientist said:


> Completely flawed logic on your end. A toddler wouldn't at the time have speed faster even if she would eventually outspeed Bolt. It's different for Naruto and Gai. The moment before Naruto had outsped A, he had the _exact_ same abilities as the moment right _after_ he had outsped him. Naruto's abilities didn't change. He _was_ faster than him, he just hadn't shown it yet. Him not showing it doesn't mean he wasn't faster.


This is obviously not true. 

A4 was embarrassing Naruto. 

Naruto  the ground with Shunshin, leaving a streak, and still got  walled and  by A4. 

 he  him again. Still not even using his full power. Even though Naruto directly tells us that he is trying to go "faster this time" , and even though he was already determined the first time and shocked it didnt work.

Then  leaps tries again and gets punked again. 

 he tries in a combination with B and still gets slapped onto his ass with his Shunshin by A  B at .

We get shown over and over again that Naruto was not fast enough at first and even after trying to amp up his speed at first. He needed to get better with his speed.

This isnt hard, bro.



Mad Scientist said:


> Same with Gai. 8G Gai at the time would have been _much_ faster than V2 A. 8G is a part of Gai. V2 is a part of A. Gai is much faster than A.


And again, neither "breaks his ankle every step" Naruto, nor 
"has repeatedly been outsped on panel by not full power A4" both of which exist within the same like 8 hours or so as him _finally_ surpassing A4 is actually faster than A4. 

When he finally manages to muster up enough speed to get past A4 we see it and it's an event.

That doesn't retroactively delete all the times he had worse control with an ability he just got hours ago like KCM.




Mad Scientist said:


> Again, him not using it doesn't mean he didn't have it. No titles. Gai and Naruto are faster than A.


No they are not. Still. Until they were there weren't. 
That's literally how continuity works.


Mad Scientist said:


> People can read the thread. I made it explicitly clear I did not mean he was actually lying, but rather that he was misinformed. His statement is merely objectively false because while he had declared himself to be the fastest, little did he know that there were others who were faster than him.


So you agree that once again the title is misleading clickbait, then? 

It's just that this time the OP walks it back? 

 why though?


His statement is true at the time. 

Since Minato died no one has been faster than him. 
A speed no one has yet achieved by that point does not change the timeline of events, somehow.


Mad Scientist said:


> So you think he spent his time looking at Guy, who didn't even occupy any special positions, who the author indicates is an overlooked character? Much less discussing Gai's 7th Gate in particular?
> 
> It was made beyond clear that WA Gai was capable of using the Gates. What?? Of course he existed.


No I'm saying trying to definitely state one way or the other what he did or did not know about Guy when he has access to Intel on every strong  Shinobi in the alliance is silly.

Especially when Tsunade is right there and doesn't disagree with his assessment and she definitely knows her troops as Hokage.


Mad Scientist said:


> Not just possibility. Probability. 8G, which is part of Gai's power, would be 100% likely to outspeed A, meaning Gai was faster.
> 
> That just adds to the idea that they only discussed Gai insofar as him being a strong fighter.


Nope. Possibility.  As in he might have never used it his whole life.

Being theoretically faster if a certain possibility is met is not the same as being faster. As in the baby example.

You dont even actually know when Guy got the ability to open The final Gate.
And no, guessing is not knowing.


Mad Scientist said:


> No. I'm not saying that at all.


Of course not this part wasn't even quoted at you rofl.


Mad Scientist said:


> We don't know how that battle went exactly to make such implications like you did. Pretty sure Gai is > Dai too.


What implications did I make? 

Dai failed to kill them all. True or false?

And of course Guy  is stronger than his father who would believe otherwise?
 Which is even more of a reason not to say anyone should have judgeef what Guy's  speed would be like based off of his father or anyone else and should count it as a definite.
 That's just another assumption.


Mad Scientist said:


> It was clear that A was not considering exceptions of others being faster than him when he said that. He outright declared he was the fastest shinobi. Him saying that his attack was simply a test does, however, indicate that he considered at least the possibility of Naruto being faster than him. But A) stretching that to Gai is just far-fetched and B) changing his statement is changing what he meant: You think he was considering the possibility of a few being able to outspeed him but where exactly is the evidence for that being the context? As far as I'm aware, he comes across as quite a rash/implusive/arrogant individual.


You wondering what he was considering when he stated a current fact and Tsunade didnt disagree is not relevant. 

He clearly outsped Naruto before Naruto finally surpassed him and Guy using the 8th Gate wasn't a thing that happened yet.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 15, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto was only _established_ as faster _until_ he proved it - that _does not_ mean he didn't have the exact same ability just beforehand. Take this scene for instance...



Dude....you don't get the world record until.......wait for it.....you beat the previous world record.

I know that to you and your Gai induced wankery this may sound insane...to the rest of the world standard operating procedure.



> Do you actually have an argument here? Explain why I'm incorrect about the assertion.



Your lack of understanding what the word potential means disproves your faulty premise.


> _Think about it like this.... if he wasn't faster, then he wouldn't have had the potential to be faster_


When you use words without understanding what they mean then you are just *wrong*.



> Do you have any modicum of proof that his words were specifically about what has been shown up to that point in the manga?



More proof than you have *because the manga is telling us A4 is the fastest*.

Versus your zero proof other than you really wish it was Gai who was the fastest.



> He clearly stated this: "*There is no shinobi faster than me.* *Ever since the Fourth Hokage died!*"



And he is correct.



> The statement itself directly establishes that he believed at the time that he was the fastest shinobi currently living. He was wrong. Naruto, Gai and Obito were all currently living shinobi at the time who were capable of outspeeding him and therefore would be faster than him, which would serve to contradict his point.



None of those guys were faster at the time A4 made his statement.

Only after the fact did Naruto and 8th gate Gai prove to be faster.



> You would be contradicting yourself because we hadn't even yet seen Minato outspeed him when he made the statement.



Do you even know what contradict means?

For real.

I accept A4's statement and his *own statement establish's A4 as inferior to Minato*.

"Contradiction" rofl



> Doesn't matter. We can use hindsight



No.

A4 was the fastest at the time of his statement. Understanding that guys would *become faster after the statement* doesn't change the truth of his statement originally.



> or even approximation to clearly establish that Gai was much faster than him at the time i.e. he was wrong about being the fastest living shinobi.



Gai is not faster.

8th Gate Gai doesn't yet exist.



> As I explained above,



You haven't explained jack shit.

Wanking progressively harder doesn't explain anything.



> KCM Naruto just before surpassing him didn't show he was faster, but we know he was very well capable of outspeeding him i.e. KCM Naruto was faster than A, he just didn't show it until he actually did. Similarly, 8G is part of Gai's power.



Covered with the potential argument.

Look up that word.



> You have no proof that the narrative intended A4 to be established as the fastest -



Yeah "no proof" other than the narrative *telling us he is the fastest*.

That's like the opposite of no proof lol



> it's simply an unsubtantiated claim.



Your entire premise is an unsubstantiated claim. Let's not pretend you actually care about such things.



> I would agree that it intended to _portray_ him as super fast. Either way, intent or not, the statement was itself objectively incorrect. He wasn't the fastest at the time.



Except he was the fastest at the time of his statement.

You don't get to take future feats and retroactively apply them to pre statement A4.



> 8G did exist though.



Yes 8th gate exists, *8th gate Gai however does not*.

You know how we know that? Because Gai wasn't *fucking dead*. Which amazingly enough still wouldn't disprove A4's statement on being the fastest shinobi *alive* because Gai would be dead.



> Saying 8G "didn't exist", when it clearly did, just sounds silly.



Is Gai dead from 8th gate usage at the time? No?

Well I guess he didn't exist yet.



> Kaguya _wasn't even_ around!



Neither was 8th gate Gai.

Your lack of consistency is mind boggling.

_



			If
		
Click to expand...

_


> 8G did not exist, it would never have been mentioned anywhere in Naruto. Of course 8G existed.



The 8th gate is not Gai. That's like saying rasengen is Naruto.

The 8th gate exists before Gai ever used it just as rasengen exists before Naruto ever used it.

Don't conflate the technique with the character.



> That doesn't address my point. I know full well that nobody (bar arguably Obito) surpassed him in speed at the time he said his words - my point is that regardless of Naruto surpassing him after or not, he was _still_ faster simply because he had the ability to outspeed him. Just because Naruto didn't _show_ it before surpassing him doesn't mean he _wasn't _faster. We know in hindsight that Naruto was faster; he still had the exact same abilities before surpassing him.



You aren't the world record holder until you break the world record.

That simply is the reality of surpassing benchmarks.



> Yes you are.



No, that's the narrative. I'm just the messenger.



> You're constraining what he said to fit just "standard ninja". He literally thought he was the fastest living shinobi at the time. He didn't say he was the fastest standard shinobi at the time.



He is the fastest living shinobi at that time. I'm simply pointing out that stuff that cannot be known wouldn't be included in that.....obviously.



> Already explained why your 8G point is moot.



And you were wrong.



> I know Naruto becoming the new yellow flash didn't yet exist - not sure why you bring that up.



Hey man, you're the dude attempting to retroactively apply feats to the past version of character in a desperate attempt to discredit A4 for some wanktastic tire pumping of Gai.....or something?



> No they're not. Anyone can make a claim.



Yes I know. You are living proof of relentless false claims.

That doesn't mean A4's was false tho.



> Addressed.



Debunked.



> Nope, you are.



Baby shaked.




> Sigh... I know full well what the purpose of that scene was. Only reason I'm bringing it up as an issue is because _NBD posters_ take it way too liberally, when it's literally and objectively false. And if you're "not doing this again. lol," then feel free to leave.



What

The

Fuck?

Aren't you the dude that thinks Gai has steel hard skin because of the *databook*???



Mad Scientist said:


> Gai's body is described as like steel and his durability is not to be snuffed at.



IT IS YOU!

Talk about taking words "too literal"! This is so wack *it has to be a troll*.

*golf clap* I give you your props I appreciates me a good troll.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 16, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I know that to you and your Gai induced wankery this may sound insane...
> 
> Your lack of understanding what the word potential means disproves your faulty premise.
> 
> ...


ShinAkuma, your post is riddled with personal attacks, sexual rhetoric, ad hominem, and you try to give the impression that you're refuting my points when in reality your attempts to counter my arguments shine light on your poor understanding of the material and your mediocre stamina in debate. Not to mention you presuming my opinions despite being incorrect. You try to shift the goalpost by patronisingly asking me to review fricking _word definitions_ when you are fully aware that I know my English and that we know what the hell we're talking about (at least I know, not sure about you). Among more sins.

My debate with you ends as of now because you are terrible at debating.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Man, I honestly really cant tell if you're just trolling us all sometimes.
> Like this doesn't even make sense as a sentence, but here we are.
> 
> Once you go faster, then you are faster. Not before.
> ...


Will respond in a couple days thanks. By the way, I don't troll. Never have, not my thing.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 16, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> ShinAkuma, your post is riddled with personal attacks,



Technically I'm attacking your wank and not you as a person.

For all I know you could be a Russian bot here to destabilize the logic and common sense of the everyday NBD poster.







> sexual rhetoric,



Hey WHOA slow down there little buddy. Nothing I posted was remotely sexual. Maybe talking about Gai this *intensely* make your jimmies tighter. (borrowing your jimmies material @Turrin )

But I have seen you talk about Gai before without this misconception.....

*does some quick research*

Aha!



I see what's going on. I eviscerated your post so harshly that the fear took over and now you're in survival mode.

A fair response sir. I don't blame you for being scared, I'm just happy I got to the bottom of this mystery.

NOW WE SEE WHO THE TRUE SCIENTIST IS BETWEEN US!



> ad hominem,





.........

Alright.....YOU GOT ME THERE!



> and you try to give the impression that you're refuting my points when in reality your attempts to counter my arguments shine light on your poor understanding of the material and your mediocre stamina in debate.



Do you just type words hoping they mean something? I'm honestly confused because what I just quoted is the literal *opposite of reality*.

And for the record my stamina is off the charts.





> Not to mention you presuming my opinions despite being incorrect.



I'm literally responding to the opinions that you have put to text. That's like the opposite of presumption.

Is it opposite day or something?



> You try to shift the goalpost by patronisingly asking me to review fricking _word definitions_ when you are fully aware that I know my English and that we know what the hell we're talking about (at least I know, not sure about you). Among more sins.



This is like......waaaaaay to easy.

What I said - "_Naruto was not yet faster until *he surpassed A4 in that scene*. Yes he always had the potential, but he was not faster until he kicked it up.

Standard shonen troupe of passing your benchmark._"

Then you said - "_Think about it like this.... if he wasn't faster, then he wouldn't have had the potential to be faster._"

So here is what potential means.

po·ten·tial
/pəˈten(t)SHəl/

_adjective_

having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

You can't be fucking serious with this.

I will assist.

*having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.*




> My debate with you ends as of now because you are terrible at debating.



stam·i·na
/ˈstamənə/

_noun_

the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort.

fear
/ˈfir/

_noun_

an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.


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## Devil_Jin (Nov 16, 2019)

Naruto only surpassed him at the end of their fight after he was getting tagged numerous times by V1.

8th gate is not a specified power up as dai wasn't able to kill all the 7 swordsmen and as guy was pushing juudara. Not only it's mere speculation it's also a one-time burst of power resulting in death.

It's not exactly the same but it's like calling everone that called tsunade the best medic a lier just cause chiyo can literally bring dead people back to life

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santoryu (Nov 22, 2019)

this thread's title is hilarious


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> In Chapter 541, page 9, the Fourth Raikage, A (also known as Ei/Ay), states the following:
> 
> ​


Yes

And considering he adds in "since Minatos death" of his own accord, he is 100% correct


Mad Scientist said:


> People often think the Raikage's statement means he was 100% correct and that we should believe he was the fastest at the time


Because he was

Factually 

He was leaps and bounds faster than anyone else who existed at the time, he is surpassed in speed GOING FORWARD by characters who DIDNT EXIST at the time he made his statement or other characters who grow past him, that doesnt make his statement untrue at the time 


Mad Scientist said:


> even though he "lied" (i.e. obviously I'm not saying he lied, but he was incorrect.)


He really wasnt


Mad Scientist said:


> Anyway, A is lying


Nope


Mad Scientist said:


> at least _two_ people, at the time he made the statements, are identifiable as having been faster than him at the time.


They werent tho

Thats the funny thing


Mad Scientist said:


> *The First - KCM Naruto*


KCM Naruto is visibly SLOWER than the Raikages V! state during the start of their fight

This is shown and stated, even wiuth Bees help Naruto couldnt outpace V1 A at first

Let alone V2

Naruto GROWS to BECOME faster than A during their fight as he masters his KCM state better

He wasnt already faster and just fucking around wasting time having a laugh with A while they raced around...

I really dont think you know how "lies" or being "incorrect" works if you think Naruto BECOMING faster than A disproves that A was hilariously faster than him at the start of the fight and prior to the fight starting 


Mad Scientist said:


> *The Second - Might Gai*


HA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Good one


Mad Scientist said:


> Might Gai's top speeds are crazy and he bended space in Night *Link Removed*.


8th Gate Gai didnt EXIST when A made that statement 

So this is also bullshit

This is like saying that Lee "lied" about being faster than Sasuke here, because oh look at that *Link Removed* who cares about progression he was obviously that fast the whole time 

Thats basically your entire post

What is with you and semantics dude?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes
> 
> And considering he adds in "since Minatos death" of his own accord, he is 100% correct
> 
> ...


You neg rep me for "misrepresentation" when you take my statement out of context? You quoted me saying "Anyway, A is lying" and omitted *literally the following clarification*: "Anyway, A is lying (_obviously_ I'm not claiming or suggesting that he's _lying_, but rather that he's _misinformed_)"



WorldsStrongest said:


> 8th Gate Gai didnt EXIST when A made that statement
> 
> So this is also bullshit
> 
> This is like saying that Lee "lied" about being faster than Sasuke here, because oh look at that *Link Removed* who cares about progression he was obviously that fast the whole time


8G is a part of Gai's ability and the War Arc showed he was perfectly capable of opening it. Same as 7G. Sasuke in your asinine example didn't _even have_ _and wasn't even capable of using _JJ tier speed ("lel").

I'll illustrate with an example...

*How The Manga Denotes Speed*: This manga shows us that (at least for Part 2), when it comes to crowning someone as "the fastest", travelling speeds, reaction/reflex speeds _and_ jutsu speeds all matter. Minato w/o FTG cannot move as fast as Ay, obviously, despite being a very fast character (travelling speed), _but_ he has reflexes (reaction speed) faster than or equal to him. This allows him, in conjunction with FTG (jutsu speed), to move extremely fast _overall_ (when he's performing at maximum capacity, this makes up his overall top speed).

*Comparison*: So let's take into account Gai's top speed, his reaction speed, and his jutsu speed.

*Top Travelling Speed*: The Eighth Gate allows Gai to move _much_ faster than KCM Minato w/Shunshin can... Base Minato's Shunshin isn't fast enough to dodge young Ay's top speed (that's why it wasn't used.) KCM Naruto's top Shunshin, however, was, and that was against a faster version of the Raikage. However, KCM Naruto has been compared to the Yellow Flash (despite not having used his top Shunshin yet). Granting Minato KCM would obviously allow him to move even faster than KCM Naruto's top speed. But this is not on the level of 8G Gai. Consider that _Sage Mode_ Minato _with FTG_ + support (in the form of distraction) was _easily_ stomped by JJ 1R Madara, whereas _7G Gai_ (not even 8G yet) was so fast that he topped Madara's expectation to the extent that Madara could only find an opening when Hirudora was prepared - and even then he failed to kill Gai. 8G is _much_ faster than 7G. At the apex, 8G Gai moved so fast that JJ Madara was shocked he was *bending* *space itself*.
*Top Reaction Speed*: 7G has Juubi Jinchuuriki-pressuring speeds (so fast that he didn't get tagged by TSBs even once) and he was so fast he reacted to a *finger twitch* in an *instant*. Whereas, base Minato only narrowly reacted to young Ay and KCM Minato reacted slower than base Tobirama.
*Top Jutsu Speed*: As I said, Night Guy had bended space itself and had JJ Madara be shocked. If you put 8G Gai in front of KCM Minato, say 20-50 metres, Minato's head would _actually_ be taken off, and at best he could probably manage a finger twitch or a hand movement - nothing that would enable him to escape. KCM/base Minato's prerequisite to using his fastest jutsu (FTG) requires his reflex/mental reflex speeds to be on par or better than his foes travelling / jutsu or technique speed. His reflexes are not faster than 8G, we've already established that. There's also him in Sage Mode getting stomped by JJ 1R Madara and not FTG'ing back despite having the "opportunity". And without prep, FTG is useless (that's a given and should be obvious). Now, 8G does have a prerequisite too - opening it. Yet, when the likes of 7G and 8G are opened, and they can be opened pretty goddamn fast, characters that are in character stand in awe - they're focused on keeping their footing and protecting their vision.
*In conclusion*: Overall, Gai is _much, much_ faster than KCM Minato.

*In this same way*: Gai is _much_, _much_ faster than Ay.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You neg rep me for "misrepresentation"


Because thats what your entire premise is

You are attributing the speed Naruto and Gai LATER ATTAIN to their CURRENT SELVES and stating that somehow disproves A's statement

That is fucking asinine logic 


Mad Scientist said:


> you take my statement out of context?


I didnt tho

I addressed this...


Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not claiming or suggesting that he's _lying_, but rather that he's _misinformed_


Right here


WorldsStrongest said:


> He really wasnt


Read my post again carefully this time 


Mad Scientist said:


> 8G is a part of Gai's ability


8G Gai did not exist at that point in the manga

Period

The fact you are using that one time only suicidal and hypothetical version of Gai (at that time) to pimp gais SPEED IN GENERAL above A IN GENERAL is asinine logic

You are doing the exact same thing by ignoring the fact KCM Naruto was SLOWER than at first and pretending he had mastered KCM the entire time when thats visibly untrue 

You are being super fucking dishonest

Yet again


Mad Scientist said:


> Sasuke in your asinine example didn't _even have_ _and wasn't even capable of using _JJ tier speed


Likewise in YOUR examples KCM Naruto wasnt capable of using speed surpassing V2 A but you pretend he was anyway

Hence why my example shits down your throat

As it used identical logic

Youre ignoring teh fact Narutos speed INCREASED as he IMPROVED OVER TIME and applying his FINAL SPEED to earlier versions of him.

I did the exact same thing with the Sasuke example, if you dont like that, then you have an issue with your own stupid logic.

Which really tells you how bad it is considering when using slightly different wording you cant stand it...

Look in the mirror dude


Mad Scientist said:


> Same as 7G.


7G Gai in any universe being compared to even V1 A is a laugh out loud joke

A is hilariously faster


Mad Scientist said:


> *How The Manga Denotes Speed*


This oughta be good considering you havent properly interpreted the manga even once yet in this thread (or the last few gems you made in fact)


Mad Scientist said:


> This manga shows us that (at least for Part 2), when it comes to crowning someone as "the fastest", travelling speeds, reaction/reflex speeds _and_ jutsu speeds all matter. Minato w/o FTG cannot move as fast as Ay, obviously, despite being a very fast character (travelling speed), _but_ he has reflexes (reaction speed) faster than or equal to him. This allows him, in conjunction with FTG (jutsu speed), to move extremely fast _overall_ (when he's performing at maximum capacity, this makes up his overall top speed).


I actually agree with 110% of all of this shockingly enough

Your problem comes with taking context into account going forward considering you bend over backwords to either ignore context entirely or willfully ignore it because of semantics


Mad Scientist said:


> *Top Travelling Speed*: The Eighth Gate


Ive already went over why treating 8th Gate as if its just a speed Gai can just whip out willy nilly and should be treated as a constant variable in his fights is fucking asinine 

It is beyond silly to believe that

May as well say Minato can oneshot literally everyone in the series weaker than Kurama no diff because of RDS and attribbute that to his GENERAL Jutsu strength....

See why thats fucking stupid yet?


Mad Scientist said:


> *Top Reaction Speed*: 7G has Juubi Jinchuuriki-pressuring speeds


He doesnt tho

He didnt even touch Madara and his attacks are stated to have been "worthless" BY GAI and Kakashi


Mad Scientist said:


> so fast that he didn't get tagged by TSBs even once


Madara didnt even attempt to attack him 

He let Gai blow himself up with his trash Hirudora 

How is that a reaction feat for Gai are you fucking joking 


Mad Scientist said:


> Whereas, base Minato only narrowly reacted to young Ay




Minato has a feat where he reacted to 8G Gais fastest Sekizo bud 

Pimping 7G Gai above Minato is a useless gesture 


Mad Scientist said:


> *Top Jutsu Speed*: As I said, Night Guy


As I said, giving 8G feats to Gai in a general sense is faulty logic for about a dozen reasons 


Mad Scientist said:


> *In conclusion*: Overall, Gai is _much, much_ faster than KCM Minato.


With 8th Gate ALONE 

In no fucking world is that "overall" 

Like dude...The dishonesty here is nauseating


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Because thats what your entire premise is
> 
> You are attributing the speed Naruto and Gai LATER ATTAIN to their CURRENT SELVES and stating that somehow disproves A's statement
> 
> ...


Very simple read. You could have shortened it down to 4-6 short sentences.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 7G Gai in any universe being compared to even V1 A is a laugh out loud joke


Edo Dual-Rinnegan Madara blocked V1 Ay and JJ Uni-Rinnegan Madara (astronomically more faster) was surprised by 7G Gai's speed and could only get an opening to attack him during the burst attack once Hirudora was prepared - and still failed.

Any way you look at it, 7G Gai is _much_ faster than Ay.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Very simple read.


Must be why you replied to exactly none of it then 

You giving up or admitting youre wrong? Or you just stonewalling things you dont like with this response?


Mad Scientist said:


> You could have shortened it down to 4-6 short sentences.


Yeah but honestly the flavor text is just so much fun to type out

Accentuates my points n all that


Mad Scientist said:


> Edo Dual-Rinnegan Madara blocked V1 Ay


Same Madara no diff reacted to Hirudora bud

7G gais FASTEST attack


Mad Scientist said:


> JJ Uni-Rinnegan Madara (astronomically more faster) was surprised by 7G Gai's speed


Surprise doesnt mean jack dick

Sasuke surprised Kakashi during the bell test it doesnt make Sasuke a Jonin level speedster at the time

Wake up kid 


Mad Scientist said:


> could only get an opening to attack him during the burst attack once Hirudora was prepared - and still failed.


Are you kidding?

That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI without an opening but you think he had issues targeting 7th GATE?


Dude the masters wank and sheer amount of misconstrued theories that come out of your mouth on the regular is frankly astonishing

You actively contradict your own opinions and you cant even notice

Its something to watch honestly





Mad Scientist said:


> Any way you look at it, 7G Gai is _much_ faster than Ay.


No actually he isnt

7th gate Gai was reacted to by fucking KISAME

Same Kisame who could barely react to V2 Bee

Same V2 Bee who is slower than V1 A

Gai, outside of red mist, is a JOKE in terms of speed compared to the Raikages

Gaisw fight with Madara was literally him flailing in Madaras general direction, hitting NOTHING BUT AIR, and then getting slapped back by his own goddamn attack.

madara LET HIM have his fun then promptely would have killed him if not for outside interference...

Madara goes on to throw down with fucking 8th Gate Gai...Which is how you KNOW he didnt give anywhere near a legitimate effort against 7th...

The fact you REPEATEDLY ignore this is ridiculous


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Same Madara no diff reacted to Hirudora bud


False


WorldsStrongest said:


> Surprise doesnt mean jack dick


False.


WorldsStrongest said:


> That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI


False.


WorldsStrongest said:


> 7th gate Gai was reacted to by fucking KISAME


False.

With such incredulously shallow understanding of context and combat, it's no wonder you can't understand simple panels.


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## Edogawa (Nov 23, 2019)

Kishimoto wanted to convey a message to the readers that A4 was the fastest man, that's all there is to it. Nothing is rocket science about it. The entire trait of A4's capabilities is his overwhelming speed; he's hyped up several times and has several feats to back it up. He was a plot device for Naruto's power development.

-KCM Naruto didn't *instantly *outspeed A4 from the *getgo*. He was getting blitzed for a full chapter. He outspeed him after he got the hang of his movements. Even when we get into the War Arc later on, A4's combat speed still outshines KCM Naruto's as shown against Madara and Mu.

-This shit about 7 Gates Gai vs JJ Madara is so old and has been debunked more times than a baby can count. 8 Gates Gai only becomes faster than A4, because he's committing suicide. Gai has never been a relevant nor has he ever received the hypes A4 had outside the 8 Gates.

-Obito and Minato are only faster than A4 via space time manipulation. A4's foot-speed still outshines them.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> False


*Link Removed*...Even reacting in time to breakdown the futility of Gai attacking him with what he (wrongly) assumed was Ninjutsu no less...Commenting on the clash on a step by step basis no less...

So youre wrong

Nice nonexistent counter evidence tho


Mad Scientist said:


> False.


> Kisame did it
> Edo Madara cant

Yeah no

So youre wrong

Nice nonexistent counter evidence tho


Mad Scientist said:


> False.


*Link Removed*..*Link Removed*

So youre wrong

Nice nonexistent counter evidence tho


Mad Scientist said:


> False.


Hey look its Madara doing exactly what I said he did...Even while being bombarded no less...

8th Gate Gai would have DIED HERE if he didnt get bailed out by outside support...Yet you think 7th Gate Gai had JJ Madara TOTALLY HELPLESS and unable to strike back until Gai was affected by teh adverse strain of his own attack?

Yikes youre bad at this

So youre wrong

Nice nonexistent counter evidence tho

None of the above is an actual argument to anything you disagreed with

You become worse at attempting to debate (Ive yet to see you properly do it even once) every day it seems


Mad Scientist said:


> With such incredulously shallow understanding of context and combat, it's no wonder you can't understand simple panels.


Says the one who cant understand things the manga spoonfeeds to him and instead prefers his own headcanon postulations 

Notice how the majority always disagree with your threads no less 

Despite your incessant need to appeal to popularity, you cant even do that right


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2019)

This whole thread: View media item 86579
Mad Scientist: View media item 86573


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> This whole thread: View media item 86579
> Mad Scientist: View media item 86573


Accurate


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2019)

Don’t be upset, it’s all in good fun love.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> *Link Removed*.


They did it at the same time. Gai did not launch it first - he didn't want to kill him. Even if you are right, consider two things: A) Edo Dual-Rinnegan Madara in V3 Susano'o could not do a thing against an exhausted Gai's Hirudora, and B) Gai was underwater which evidently drastically decreases movement speed (unless the user is capable in it such as V2 Bee).



WorldsStrongest said:


> > Edo Madara cant


He didn't though. You're saying he can - but he didn't. He was literally just engaged in fighting Naruto and for whatever reason, according to your asinine logic, he goes "ah, I might as well just get my ass kicked and fly away..."



WorldsStrongest said:


> *Link Removed*..*Link Removed*
> 
> So youre wrong
> 
> Nice nonexistent counter evidence tho


And again you fail miserably on context.
> JJ Madara reacts like  and  yet HuRr DurR surprise does not mean anything




WorldsStrongest said:


> Hey look its Madara doing exactly what I said he did...Even while being bombarded no less...
> 
> 8th Gate Gai would have DIED HERE if he didnt get bailed out by outside support...Yet you think 7th Gate Gai had JJ Madara TOTALLY HELPLESS and unable to strike back until Gai was affected by teh adverse strain of his own attack?
> 
> ...


As if you don't even understand your own arguments...

You said "That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI." Really?

*Link Removed*

You are absolutely terrible at debating - mainly it's because of your trash attitude and thinking you're always right.



Mar55 said:


> Don’t be upset, it’s all in good fun love.


Likewise.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> B) Gai was underwater which evidently drastically decreases movement speed (unless the user is capable in it such as V2 Bee).



Gai is not underwater. His aura was pushing back the water.

HERES LITERALLY PAGE 2 WHICH IS WHAT IM REFERENCING

As well Gai is drawn with normal shading signifying he isn't underwater, while Kisame is not.

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 4


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## Trojan (Nov 23, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I don’t see why this is being argued so hard at the point


it's all to downplay Minato and wank Gai.

fun fact, even if the Raikage was wrong, Minato outspeed 8th Gates Gai in his 5th step. 
So, the OP's hardwork is to no avail...


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Gai is not underwater. His aura was pushing back the water.
> 
> Hey look its Madara doing exactly what I said he did...Even while being bombarded no less...
> 
> ...


Well _holy_ sh*t. You are correct about that. I still stand by my argument.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's all to downplay Minato and wank Gai.
> 
> fun fact, even if the Raikage was wrong, Minato outspeed 8th Gates Gai in his 5th step.
> So, the OP's hardwork is to no avail...


Your view that Minato "outsped" 8G Gai is inconsistent with the manga and entirely flawed:

Sage Mode Edo Minato with FTG and support via distraction [] got his arm cleaved off and his body kicked back immediately by a Madara who seemed unfazed []. Same Madara reacts like  to 7G Gai. Isn't able to tag him for the brief moments Gai strikes []. When Madara _does_ get an , he fails to cut Gai in half or do any damage to him [].
Minato is surprised Gai mastered the Gates (and Gai wasn't even in the 8th Gate yet). This, alongside Gaara's statement that his movements are inhuman, suggest Minato is in awe as well [].
Gai is so fast and powerful he's making the wind howl like crazy. Minato is lost for words [*Link Removed*].
Now you claim "Minato outsped 8th Gates Gai," yet:
Minato wasn't facing off against Gai (it's not as if Minato did a wrist-flick against Gai). Minato _outsped_ the TSBs with mental reaction - the physical prerequisite of having the kunai in place was actually done by 6G Lee, so it isn't even as if Minato performed his feat on his own. The TSBs were his target though, not Gai.

It's clear his feat was largely due to 6th Gated Lee's timing [7], as he goes out of his way to note it.
When Minato teleported, the TSBs had _already_ struck his back or was extremely close [8], due to 6G Lee's timing, and there was barely any time between panel 1 and 2 because the actual teleporting phase with FTG simply requires a mental reaction [9] which SM Edo Minato was fast enough to do.
In short, Minato didn't "outspeed" 8G Gai. He didn't even do a single physical reaction against Gai. He used FTG which is basically mental processing after the initial setup (and 6G Lee did the initial setup of throwing the kunai). Minato also doesn't start in Sage Mode against the Raikage - so consider that too.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Well _holy_ sh*t. You are correct about that.



99.9% of the time I'm right everytime.





> I still stand by my argument.



As V once said - "Ideas are bulletproof". And in this same way *wank is factproof*.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Your view that Minato "outsped" 8G Gai is inconsistent with the manga and entirely flawed:


it's not inconsistent with the manga because the manga is what showed that... 



Mad Scientist said:


> Sage Mode Edo Minato with FTG and support via distraction [] got his arm cleaved off and his body kicked back immediately by a Madara who seemed unfazed []. Same Madara reacts like  to 7G Gai. Isn't able to tag him for the brief moments Gai strikes []. When Madara _does_ get an , he fails to cut Gai in half or do any damage to him [].
> 
> Minato is surprised Gai mastered the Gates (and Gai wasn't even in the 8th Gate yet). This, alongside Gaara's statement that his movements are inhuman, suggest Minato is in awe as well [].
> 
> ...



all of that doesn't change the fact that Minato teleported in and out, while Gai barely moved an inch... 

funny how you are crying for "feats" to disregard A's statement, and you are now trying to dismiss Minato's feat with 8th Gates Gai


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's not inconsistent with the manga because the manga is what showed that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. Posters bring that feat up in an egregious way so as to either elevate Minato's standing or unknowingly (or otherwise) and incorrectly presume 8G Gai's not that fast seeing as how "Minato was able to teleport in and out - and I will wilfully omit the fact he could never have done such a thing without 6G Lee, even if he had his arms."

Now you probably think I'm trying to downplay Minato. Not true at all. I like Minato's character better than the Raikage. I state things like Raikage was owning KCM Naruto for the first part, yet I like Naruto better than the Raikage and think overall he'd be more useful in a battle. This idea that people who are exploring the manga are somehow going out of their way to downplay characters they genuinely like is contemptible.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Kishimoto wanted to convey a message to the readers that A4 was the fastest man, that's all there is to it. Nothing is rocket science about it. The entire trait of A4's capabilities is his overwhelming speed; he's hyped up several times and has several feats to back it up. He was a plot device for Naruto's power development.


Sure.



Edogawa said:


> -KCM Naruto didn't *instantly *outspeed A4 from the *getgo*. He was getting blitzed for a full chapter. He outspeed him after he got the hang of his movements. Even when we get into the War Arc later on, A4's combat speed still outshines KCM Naruto's as shown against Madara and Mu.


He wasn't getting _blitzed_, but he was getting outperformed. 

How do you know that A4's *combat speed* outshines KCM Naruto's?



Edogawa said:


> -This shit about 7 Gates Gai vs JJ Madara is so old and has been debunked more times than a baby can count. 8 Gates Gai only becomes faster than A4, because he's committing suicide. Gai has never been a relevant nor has he ever received the hypes A4 had outside the 8 Gates.


I know. 7G Gai did indeed surprise Madara, who was basically paralleled with SM Minato, who got busted. 7G Gai > V2 Ay.

So what if he didn't receive the hype beforehand? That doesn't mean he wasn't faster in either of those gates. 



Edogawa said:


> -Obito and Minato are only faster than A4 via space time manipulation. A4's foot-speed still outshines them.


Agreed.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> They did it at the same time.


They didnt tho

Thats kinda why Gai is drawn doing it first and then Kisame is

Simultaneous actions occur in the same panel, not separate ones


Mad Scientist said:


> Gai did not launch it first


Gai did launch first

And even if he didnt this is 110% irrelvant to what happened

Even assuming Gai launched second the panel shits in your mouth just fine

Because as I said, and you (as fuucking always when it comes to things you cant refute) ignored, Kisame BREAKS DOWN the entire clash AS IT HAPPENS, he makes multiple observations and directly comments on stages of the clash

THOSE ARE ALL REACTIONS

And your seriously fucking sitting there and claiming a dude whos fastest tech can be broken down and reacted to by KISAME is a fucking issue to a JJ...

That is legit the most pants on head retarded argument ive ever seen someone make about Gai


Mad Scientist said:


> Even if you are right


I am

I am right

I always am when it comes to debating with you bud cuz you do this thing where you routinely argue against what is stated and shown dozens of times over in favor of postulation and semantics


Mad Scientist said:


> consider two things: A) Edo Dual-Rinnegan Madara in V3 Susano'o could not do a thing against an exhausted Gai's Hirudora,


He blocked it with Susanoo

He didnt NEED to do anything further as he had Susanoo up and tanked it

The notion that you think something Kisame reacted to is something Edo Madara cannot is asinine

And heres why...


*Link Removed* (he only manages a mental reaction)
V2 Bee is slower than V1 A (Bee couldnt mentally blitz Kisame, KCM Naruto could, A outspeeds that KCM Naruto in V1)
V1 A is slower than V2 A (Duh)
*Link Removed*
Edo Madara CASUALLY shit on BM/KCM2 (whatever term you wanna use) Narutos speeds
So...Yeah...The idea that Madara COULDNT react to what Kisame COULD is just a flat out stupid thing to imply, let alone state

TLDR, didnt =/= couldnt, especially in this case

And its ridiculous logic to say otherwise


Mad Scientist said:


> B) Gai was underwater which evidently drastically decreases movement speed


Gais aura passively cucks the ocean actually, as you conceeded with @ShinAkuma earlier


Mad Scientist said:


> He didn't though


He did tho

Not only that but hes reacted to hilariously faster shit than Gais Hirudora


Mad Scientist said:


> He was literally just engaged in fighting Naruto and for whatever reason, according to your asinine logic, he goes "ah, I might as well just get my ass kicked and fly away..."




"Get my ass kicked"???

Are you blind?

Teh dude tanked it with Susanoo

You wanna know how many times Madara has stood there and allowed strong people to wail on his Susanoo???

Try EVERY TIME HES EVER USED IT

Madara trusting in its defenses is hardly him doing what youre proposing here 


Mad Scientist said:


> And again you fail miserably on context.


Thats actually so fucking adorable coming from you as you have failed to account for context even once since Ive ever debated with you


Mad Scientist said:


> > JJ Madara reacts like  and  yet HuRr DurR surprise does not mean anything


Surprise doesnt mean anything

Madara is fighting a dude Kisame can react to and the dude is also not even touching Madara

Madara simply goes on guard when he sees Gai make a hand seal at the last second

This in no way means anything

You wanna know how many instances in this manga there are of a VASTLY superior fighter engaged with a hilariously weaker one where "!!" are drawn in for literally no fucking reason?

Here
*Link Removed*
Here
Here
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*
Thats half a dozen examples within A SINGLE FIGHT where a superior opponent is "surprised" and it means NOTHING regarding scaling

Now, are you seriously going to fucking sit there and try and say that SM Naruto or Tobirama are individually ANYWHERE FUCKING NEAR Juubito in speed or power or overall ability?

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*

Cuz thats the same fucking nonsense youre getting on with for 7G Gai "surprising" Madara

And its nauseating

Wake the fuck up and start forming arguments that make a HAIR of sense please


Mad Scientist said:


> As if you don't even understand your own arguments...
> 
> You said "That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI." Really?


Cuz he fucking didnt

In the middle of being attacked in those panels youre referencing he ATTACKS BACK

TURN THE FUCKING PAGE AND ACTUALLY ACCOUNT FOR THE REST OF THE EXCHANGE BUD

*Link Removed*, HERES LITERALLY PAGE 2 WHICH IS WHAT IM REFERENCING

DO YOUR OPINIONS A WORLD OF GOOD IF YOU DIDNT IGNORE 99% OF THE MANGA


Mad Scientist said:


> You are absolutely terrible at debating - mainly it's because of your trash attitude and thinking you're always right.


I only know Im always right when Im addressing you

This is an attitude I adopt uniquely when debating people who troll like you do

As your opinions are always so goddamn backwards anyone who even vaguely glances at the manga can school you on them


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats kinda why Gai is drawn doing it first and then Kisame is
> 
> Simultaneous actions occur in the same panel, not separate ones


Sometimes Kishi shows two actions occurring simultaneously via indication with the gap-lines.

*Spoiler*: _example_ 











WorldsStrongest said:


> He blocked it with Susanoo


Nope. He _took_ the attack without even being shown reacting to it - and since Tsunade cracked his Susano'o, yeah, his V3 Susano'o got busted.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The notion that you think something Kisame reacted to is something Edo Madara cannot is asinine


I don't hold that notion because I don't think Kisame _reacted_ to Gai. Seemed more to me that Gai was reacting to him. Regardless, Edo Madara _didn't_ produce any meaningful reaction, that's why the _only_ thing we saw was him flying away and a massive explosion that left him out of the fight for a while.



WorldsStrongest said:


> *Link Removed* (he only manages a mental reaction)
> 
> V2 Bee is slower than V1 A (Bee couldnt mentally blitz Kisame, KCM Naruto could, A outspeeds that KCM Naruto in V1)


Look at both again. Both KCM Naruto and V2 Bee's attacks were instant. And KCM Naruto's attack wasn't a _mental_ attack - he actively used Shunshin, which he hadn't fully gotten the hang of yet in KCM. The first time Ay punched KCM Naruto, KCM Naruto didn't move as fast as he did against Kisame. I don't even think he used Shunshin, as you see he goes faster next time and Shunshin-like SFX are there.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You wanna know how many instances in this manga there are of a VASTLY superior fighter engaged with a hilariously weaker one where "!!" are drawn in for literally no fucking reason?
> 
> Here
> *Link Removed*
> ...


Wow, you are seriously naive. Literally _all _of those "!" mean something. It's like you can't understand context.

JJ Madara did not expect Gai to be that fast. He thought he was being underestimated. Then he reacted how he did because 7G Gai exceeded his expectation. If that does not mean something, then you can continue being deluded. Plus I had the other argument, that JJ Madara couldn't find a reliable opportunity to strike 7G Gai until Hirudora was prepped - and even then he failed.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Now, are you seriously going to fucking sit there and try and say that SM Naruto or Tobirama are individually ANYWHERE FUCKING NEAR Juubito in speed or power or overall ability?
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...


This is you attacking a straw man. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz he fucking didnt
> 
> In the middle of being attacked in those panels youre referencing he ATTACKS BACK
> 
> ...


Ah, good old WS can't concede to anything. 
You said: "That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI."
Not only did I refute this blatantly... but you had to go ahead and contradict yourself with: "*In the middle of being attacked in those panels *youre referencing he ATTACKS BACK"





WorldsStrongest said:


> I only know Im always right when Im addressing you
> 
> This is an attitude I adopt uniquely when debating people who troll like you do
> 
> As your opinions are always so goddamn backwards anyone who even vaguely glances at the manga can school you on them


Nope, it's someone stuck in their own belief who tries to aggressively push his own opinions even on those who only mildly disagree with him. You've got some fundamentals wrong, such as Hebi Sasuke's speed being comparable to 7G Gai's.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sometimes Kishi shows two actions occurring simultaneously via indication with the gap-lines.
> *Spoiler*: _example_


They dont happen at the same time either


Mad Scientist said:


> Nope


Yes


Mad Scientist said:


> his V3 Susano'o got busted.


No actually it didnt


Mad Scientist said:


> I don't hold that notion because I don't think Kisame _reacted_ to Gai.


Then youre wrong

By like a lot

As Kisame visibly reacts to Gai like 6 times in that panel

Theres no point in even talking with you on this shit anymore if youre getting on with blatant denial like this


Mad Scientist said:


> Both KCM Naruto and V2 Bee's attacks were instant


No they werent

They used Shunshin which isnt instant at all

Narutos is just hilariously faster


Mad Scientist said:


> Wow, you are seriously naive. Literally _all _of those "!" mean something


They dont mean anything to scaling

I made that addendum in my post bud





WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats half a dozen examples within A SINGLE FIGHT where a superior opponent is "surprised" and it means NOTHING regarding scaling


EVERYTHING that happens in literature means SOMETHING

But thi sis your ass getting hung up on a bullshit semantics argument again

When I say "That doesnt mean anything" on a goddamn Vs forum I obviously mean that doesnt mean anything regarding the Vs aspect of things

And they dont

At all


Mad Scientist said:


> This is you attacking a straw man


No actually it isnt and this isnt a counter argument so I accept your concession 


Mad Scientist said:


> Ah, good old WS can't concede to anything.
> You said: "That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI."
> Not only did I refute this blatantly... but you had to go ahead and contradict yourself with: "*In the middle of being attacked in those panels *youre referencing he ATTACKS BACK"


Are you actually serious with this shit?

You didnt refute DICK there bud

You literally ignored the fact that Madara doesnt give a darn about the page you reference ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE AND ATTACKS BACK ANYWAY

YOU ARGUMENTS ARE COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRASH

Im not going to concede on anything because theres nothing to concede to...You just tried to throw a dogshit tier argument that relies on you completely ignoring THE NEXT PART OF THE FIGHT YOURE REFERENCING

That is UNGODLY slimy 


Mad Scientist said:


> Nope, it's someone stuck in their own belief who tries to aggressively push his own opinions even on those who only mildly disagree with him. You've got some fundamentals wrong, such as Hebi Sasuke's speed being comparable to 7G Gai's.


Im doing this thing called backing every individual aspect of each argument I make with manga canon

My arguments are founded on fucking bedrock as a result 

Yours are built on sand

Kinda why yours crumble at the very first sign of any scrutiny or contention 

And yes, Hebi does have comparable speed showings to 7G Gai

Gai is reacted to by Kisame, Sasuke in a base weakened state outspeeds V1 Killer Bee, Kisame had troubles with V2 Bee

This makes the chain

V2 Bee >= Kisames reactions > Sasuke > V1 Bee

Gai fits in literally anywhere below Kisames reactions in that chain by default

They have comparble fucking speed

get over your masters boner and be objective for once in your damn tenure here and youd see this

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You are absolutely terrible at debating - mainly it's because of your trash attitude and thinking you're always right.





Mad Scientist said:


> You are correct about that. I still stand by my argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> They dont happen at the same time either


Here's another example.

*Spoiler*: __ 











WorldsStrongest said:


> Then youre wrong
> 
> By like a lot
> 
> ...


6G Gai went up water and blitzed Kisame who couldn't hit him despite trying first, yet somehow you think _Kisame_ reacts to 7G _Gai_? And clearly we were referring to Hirudora and Daikodan, which were launched at the same time.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No they werent
> 
> They used Shunshin which isnt instant at all
> 
> Narutos is just hilariously faster


No he's not. V1 Ay was outperforming KCM Naruto like 2-3 times. Naruto isn't hilariously faster.
I see V1 Bee = V1 Ay = (normal) KCM Naruto , and V2 Bee = V2 Ay = (top-speed) KCM Naruto.



WorldsStrongest said:


> They dont mean anything to scaling
> 
> I made that addendum in my post bud


Yes they do. SM Minato with FTG plus support got embarrassed. 7G Gai exceeded Madara's expectations. These two events were paralleled. Can't get clearer than that.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No actually it isnt and this isnt a counter argument so I accept your concession


I didn't concede. Don't get your hopes up.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You literally ignored the fact that Madara doesnt give a darn about the page you reference ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE AND ATTACKS BACK ANYWAY


You said: "That same Madara had no issues attacking 8TH GATE GAI."

Yes he did. He was clearly bleeding. And got stomped by Night Guy. He had issues against him.

Seriously. What part of "In the middle of being attacked in those panels youre referencing he ATTACKS BACK" means Madara had "no issues attacking" 8G Gai?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Gai is reacted to by Kisame, Sasuke in a base weakened state outspeeds V1 Killer Bee, Kisame had troubles with V2 Bee
> 
> V2 Bee >= Kisames reactions > Sasuke > V1 Bee
> 
> Gai fits in literally anywhere below Kisames reactions in that chain by default


Let's say Kisame did "react" to 7G Gai's Hirudora, despite that being blatantly wrong. It still doesn't work as evidence because they were a huge distance apart; Kisame would have had enough time to launch it considering they prepared their techniques at the same time (Gai could have actually launched Hirudora off the bat, but he didn't - why?). Meaning... you don't have a valid example for 7G Gai to put him in that chain.

And what exactly are you trying to prove in that chain? Reaction speeds?

7G Gai _instantly_ reacted to a _finger-twitch_ and _instantly_ punched Kisame's gut. He was moving so fast against JJ Madara that he A) exceeded his expectations and B) Mads couldn't exploit any opportunities to attack him until Hirudora - and even then he failed - and C) Gai vastly outperformed SM Minato w/FTG & help.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi
What are you trying to point out lol?

It's clear you didn't understand my argument.

Shin was right about one premise (or should I say supplementary point), but I still stood by my overall argument (because I agree with the rest of what I said).

Why not point out someone who consistently says shit like this?



WorldsStrongest said:


> get over your masters boner and be objective for once in your damn tenure here and youd see this





WorldsStrongest said:


> You didnt refute DICK there bud





WorldsStrongest said:


> You literally ignored the fact that Madara doesnt give a darn about the page you reference ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE AND ATTACKS BACK ANYWAY





WorldsStrongest said:


> YOU ARGUMENTS ARE COMPLETE AND TOTAL TRASH





WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not going to concede on anything because theres nothing to concede to...You just tried to throw a dogshit tier argument that relies on you completely ignoring THE NEXT PART OF THE FIGHT YOURE REFERENCING





WorldsStrongest said:


> That is UNGODLY slimy


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Hi no Ishi
> What are you trying to point out lol?
> 
> It's clear you didn't understand my argument.
> ...


Difference is Im just using coarse language, and even then im attacking your ARGUMENTS with said language not you directly. As in when I say "This is a shit ARGUMENT" im not saying "You are a shit person" 

Youre just putting your own foot directly in your mouth and being ungodly hypocritical 

The 2 arent really comparable bud


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2019)

Fuck popcorn, you need an entire corn mill for this thread.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Marvel (Nov 23, 2019)

You need to suspend your disbelief of how stupid people can be or your gonna have an aneurysm @Mar55


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2019)

Marvel said:


> You need to suspend your disbelief of how stupid people can be or your gonna have an aneurysm @Mar55


Trust me, I’ve stopped putting limits on stupidity a long time ago.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

Marvel said:


> You need to suspend your disbelief of how stupid people can be or your gonna have an aneurysm @Mar55


Like those that think 7th Gated Gai has comparable speeds to Hebi Sasuke?

It's stubbornness. I always concede whenever I'm wrong. WorldsStrongest _almost never_ does - instead, he gives his insults a makeover.


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Like those that think 7th Gated Gai has comparable speeds to Hebi Sasuke?


View media item 86732WUT!?


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 23, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Difference is Im just using coarse language, and even then im attacking your ARGUMENTS with said language not you directly. As in when I say "This is a shit ARGUMENT" im not saying "You are a shit person"
> 
> Youre just putting your own foot directly in your mouth and being ungodly hypocritical
> 
> The 2 arent really comparable bud



This is every single @Mad Scientist argument personified.


Lots of flash and undeniable effort but nothing he's says makes any fucking sense!

Yeah they are real words with correct spelling but when you put them together it's "what the fuck did I just read?!"


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> View media item 86732


Yep - Gai




Taka Sasuke - Narrowly dodges V1 Bee due to the Sharingan. 
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

CS2 Hebi Sasuke moves this fast
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*​"Oh yeah guys, Hebi Sasuke moves as fast as a 7G taijutsu master who's trained his entire life, blitzed Kisame in 6th Gate, and exceeded TEN TAILS JINCHUURIKI Madara's expectations in the 7th Gate."




ShinAkuma said:


> This is every single @Mad Scientist argument personified.
> 
> 
> Lots of flash and undeniable effort but nothing he's says makes any fucking sense!
> ...


Says the guy who's been getting destroyed on NF left, right and centre.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Says the guy who's been getting destroyed on NF left, right and centre.



????

Didn't I annihilate your argument in this very thread? And then you ran like you were a gold medalist in 100m dash.

[HASHTAG]#fakenews[/HASHTAG]

You're in the wrong place homie. Fanfiction.net is thataway


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> ????
> 
> Didn't I annihilate your argument in this very thread? And then you ran like you were a gold medalist in 100m dash.
> 
> ...


> Corrected me on a supplementary point/premise.
> "Annihilated your argument"
> "Ran away"


Don't flatter yourself. I'm guessing you didn't read what I said to Hi no Ishi, but I stuck by my argument due to the other points I made which I agree with.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 23, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> > Corrected me on a supplementary point/premise.
> > "Annihilated your argument"
> > "Ran away"
> 
> ...



Dude....how clueless are you?



You ran from that by crying about nonexistent nonsense. You know, your goto move when you realize you got absolutely nothing?

The Mad Scientist playbook -

1 - Make a long winded opening post with some wacky interpretation promoting a master / downplaying somebody you want to compare a master to.

2 - Proceed to get eviscerated by literally anybody who can read and point out the lack of any logic employed by your argument.

3 - Run away as fast as you can because "big meanie" posters.

4 - Repeat ad nauseam.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Dude....how clueless are you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


> Repeats a bunch of BS
> Hurls a bunch of insults
> "I won!"


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 24, 2019)

I sure do appreciate the opportunity to repost your absolute destruction. Thanks.



Mad Scientist said:


> > Repeats a bunch of BS
> > Hurls a bunch of insults
> > "I won!"




You mean this?



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto was only _established_ as faster _until_ he proved it - that _does not_ mean he didn't have the exact same ability just beforehand. Take this scene for instance...



Dude....you don't get the world record until.......wait for it.....you beat the previous world record.

I know that to you and your Gai induced wankery this may sound insane...to the rest of the world standard operating procedure.



> Do you actually have an argument here? Explain why I'm incorrect about the assertion.



Your lack of understanding what the word potential means disproves your faulty premise.


> _Think about it like this.... if he wasn't faster, then he wouldn't have had the potential to be faster_


When you use words without understanding what they mean then you are just *wrong*.



> Do you have any modicum of proof that his words were specifically about what has been shown up to that point in the manga?



More proof than you have *because the manga is telling us A4 is the fastest*.

Versus your zero proof other than you really wish it was Gai who was the fastest.



> He clearly stated this: "*There is no shinobi faster than me.* *Ever since the Fourth Hokage died!*"



And he is correct.



> The statement itself directly establishes that he believed at the time that he was the fastest shinobi currently living. He was wrong. Naruto, Gai and Obito were all currently living shinobi at the time who were capable of outspeeding him and therefore would be faster than him, which would serve to contradict his point.



None of those guys were faster at the time A4 made his statement.

Only after the fact did Naruto and 8th gate Gai prove to be faster.



> You would be contradicting yourself because we hadn't even yet seen Minato outspeed him when he made the statement.



Do you even know what contradict means?

For real.

I accept A4's statement and his *own statement establish's A4 as inferior to Minato*.

"Contradiction" rofl



> Doesn't matter. We can use hindsight



No.

A4 was the fastest at the time of his statement. Understanding that guys would *become faster after the statement* doesn't change the truth of his statement originally.



> or even approximation to clearly establish that Gai was much faster than him at the time i.e. he was wrong about being the fastest living shinobi.



Gai is not faster.

8th Gate Gai doesn't yet exist.



> As I explained above,



You haven't explained jack shit.

Wanking progressively harder doesn't explain anything.



> KCM Naruto just before surpassing him didn't show he was faster, but we know he was very well capable of outspeeding him i.e. KCM Naruto was faster than A, he just didn't show it until he actually did. Similarly, 8G is part of Gai's power.



Covered with the potential argument.

Look up that word.



> You have no proof that the narrative intended A4 to be established as the fastest -



Yeah "no proof" other than the narrative *telling us he is the fastest*.

That's like the opposite of no proof lol



> it's simply an unsubtantiated claim.



Your entire premise is an unsubstantiated claim. Let's not pretend you actually care about such things.



> I would agree that it intended to _portray_ him as super fast. Either way, intent or not, the statement was itself objectively incorrect. He wasn't the fastest at the time.



Except he was the fastest at the time of his statement.

You don't get to take future feats and retroactively apply them to pre statement A4.



> 8G did exist though.



Yes 8th gate exists, *8th gate Gai however does not*.

You know how we know that? Because Gai wasn't *fucking dead*. Which amazingly enough still wouldn't disprove A4's statement on being the fastest shinobi *alive* because Gai would be dead.



> Saying 8G "didn't exist", when it clearly did, just sounds silly.



Is Gai dead from 8th gate usage at the time? No?

Well I guess he didn't exist yet.



> Kaguya _wasn't even_ around!



Neither was 8th gate Gai.

Your lack of consistency is mind boggling.

_



			If
		
Click to expand...

_


> 8G did not exist, it would never have been mentioned anywhere in Naruto. Of course 8G existed.



The 8th gate is not Gai. That's like saying rasengen is Naruto.

The 8th gate exists before Gai ever used it just as rasengen exists before Naruto ever used it.

Don't conflate the technique with the character.



> That doesn't address my point. I know full well that nobody (bar arguably Obito) surpassed him in speed at the time he said his words - my point is that regardless of Naruto surpassing him after or not, he was _still_ faster simply because he had the ability to outspeed him. Just because Naruto didn't _show_ it before surpassing him doesn't mean he _wasn't _faster. We know in hindsight that Naruto was faster; he still had the exact same abilities before surpassing him.



You aren't the world record holder until you break the world record.

That simply is the reality of surpassing benchmarks.



> Yes you are.



No, that's the narrative. I'm just the messenger.



> You're constraining what he said to fit just "standard ninja". He literally thought he was the fastest living shinobi at the time. He didn't say he was the fastest standard shinobi at the time.



He is the fastest living shinobi at that time. I'm simply pointing out that stuff that cannot be known wouldn't be included in that.....obviously.



> Already explained why your 8G point is moot.



And you were wrong.



> I know Naruto becoming the new yellow flash didn't yet exist - not sure why you bring that up.



Hey man, you're the dude attempting to retroactively apply feats to the past version of character in a desperate attempt to discredit A4 for some wanktastic tire pumping of Gai.....or something?



> No they're not. Anyone can make a claim.



Yes I know. You are living proof of relentless false claims.

That doesn't mean A4's was false tho.



> Addressed.



Debunked.



> Nope, you are.



Baby shaked.




> Sigh... I know full well what the purpose of that scene was. Only reason I'm bringing it up as an issue is because _NBD posters_ take it way too liberally, when it's literally and objectively false. And if you're "not doing this again. lol," then feel free to leave.



What

The

Fuck?

Aren't you the dude that thinks Gai has steel hard skin because of the *databook*???



Mad Scientist said:


> Gai's body is described as like steel and his durability is not to be snuffed at.



IT IS YOU!

Talk about taking words "too literal"! This is so wack *it has to be a troll*.

*golf clap* I give you your props I appreciates me a good troll.

That was just me destroying your sad weak flaccid arguments.

*The next is me destroying your sad weak flaccid troll attempt.*



Mad Scientist said:


> ShinAkuma, your post is riddled with personal attacks,



Technically I'm attacking your wank and not you as a person.

For all I know you could be a Russian bot here to destabilize the logic and common sense of the everyday NBD poster.







> sexual rhetoric,



Hey WHOA slow down there little buddy. Nothing I posted was remotely sexual. Maybe talking about Gai this *intensely* make your jimmies tighter. (borrowing your jimmies material @Turrin )

But I have seen you talk about Gai before without this misconception.....

*does some quick research*

Aha!



I see what's going on. I eviscerated your post so harshly that the fear took over and now you're in survival mode.

A fair response sir. I don't blame you for being scared, I'm just happy I got to the bottom of this mystery.

NOW WE SEE WHO THE TRUE SCIENTIST IS BETWEEN US!



> ad hominem,





.........

Alright.....YOU GOT ME THERE!



> and you try to give the impression that you're refuting my points when in reality your attempts to counter my arguments shine light on your poor understanding of the material and your mediocre stamina in debate.



Do you just type words hoping they mean something? I'm honestly confused because what I just quoted is the literal *opposite of reality*.

And for the record my stamina is off the charts.





> Not to mention you presuming my opinions despite being incorrect.



I'm literally responding to the opinions that you have put to text. That's like the opposite of presumption.

Is it opposite day or something?



> You try to shift the goalpost by patronisingly asking me to review fricking _word definitions_ when you are fully aware that I know my English and that we know what the hell we're talking about (at least I know, not sure about you). Among more sins.



This is like......waaaaaay to easy.

What I said - "_Naruto was not yet faster until *he surpassed A4 in that scene*. Yes he always had the potential, but he was not faster until he kicked it up.

Standard shonen troupe of passing your benchmark._"

Then you said - "_Think about it like this.... if he wasn't faster, then he wouldn't have had the potential to be faster._"

So here is what potential means.

po·ten·tial
/pəˈten(t)SHəl/

_adjective_

having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

You can't be fucking serious with this.

I will assist.

*having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.*




> My debate with you ends as of now because you are terrible at debating.



stam·i·na
/ˈstamənə/

_noun_

the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort.

fear
/ˈfir/

_noun_

an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I sure do appreciate the opportunity to repost your absolute destruction. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@ShinAkuma
Keep day dreaming, sweetheart. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




Don't worry, since you seem to want to be destroyed so badly again, I'll respond to your post in due time.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @ShinAkuma
> Keep day dreaming, sweetheart.
> 
> 
> ...




I'll believe when I see it.

There's no escape for you now.....


----------



## A Optimistic (Nov 24, 2019)

I'm surprised at the amount of serious replies in an obvious troll thread.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> What are you trying to point out lol?


A blind spot.


Mad Scientist said:


> It's clear you didn't understand my argument.


It's clear you often act like any disagreement _must be_ based on a lack of understanding on _someone else's_ part when there is actually another person in every argument you have that could also be wrong.

Quite a difference.




Mad Scientist said:


> Shin was right about one premise (or should I say supplementary point), but I still stood by my overall argument (because I agree with the rest of what I said).


Because it doesnt seem to matter how many legs on your table get shown to be broken you still expect it to stand. And even hold weight.

You say things like ...


Mad Scientist said:


> Him only _showing_ it after doesn't mean he was slower _before_ showing it, unless you can prove he _didn't_ have the ability to outspeed him (which would be preposterous).


About things that were shown repeatedly in the manga and just move on with the same overall arguments when they are posted for all to see.

That's hubris. 


You might admit wrong about things but I dont think I've ever seen you actually admit wrong about an over all argument.


Mad Scientist said:


> Why not point out someone who consistently says shit like this?



1) I'll call anyone out on their shit at any time and I've been called on my bullshit by him and others, and done the same to him. It's what keeps us all honest on some level. It doesn't mean we don't like each other because sometimes we have to call out each others bad arguments. That's what debate is about. That's respect.

2) him calling your argument bad is not a personal insult. No matter how colorful he gets with words. I have no reason to call him out here yet. Not that he would somehow be forced to change just because I said something to him about how he talks to people online about Naruto stuff. 
At best it would be a _hope_ should that happen, but I'm not his parent and he is grown ass person. 

3) You have to address his argument not just your feelings about how he expresses it. One is debate the other is a just a complaint.

4) it doesn't matter if someone uses polite speech when they won't address your argument directly and uses doubletalk. They are being more, if not as, rude as if @WorldsStrongest said one of my arguments sucked big floppy donkey  dick but explained why with manga panels. 

You're an nice dude/dudette/nonconforming dyude, great at building threads, and generally polite but you have got to stop taking attacks on your arguments as attacks on yourself.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> No. Posters bring that feat up in an egregious way so as to either elevate Minato's standing or unknowingly (or otherwise) and incorrectly presume 8G Gai's not that fast seeing as how "Minato was able to teleport in and out - and I will wilfully omit the fact he could never have done such a thing without 6G Lee, even if he had his arms."
> 
> Now you probably think I'm trying to downplay Minato. Not true at all. I like Minato's character better than the Raikage. I state things like Raikage was owning KCM Naruto for the first part, yet I like Naruto better than the Raikage and think overall he'd be more useful in a battle. This idea that people who are exploring the manga are somehow going out of their way to downplay characters they genuinely like is contemptible.



- Do you mean like what you do with 7th Gates Gai?  
- his arms and Lee are irrelevant to FTG. You are quite delusional.  

- It's true as everyone knows that tho.. 
- the only one who is downplaying characters in this thread is you as everyone has been telling you so since the first page...


----------



## Edogawa (Nov 24, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sure.



Sounds like a concession.



Mad Scientist said:


> He wasn't getting _blitzed_, but he was getting outperformed.



You manipulating the wording won't change what hapened.



Mad Scientist said:


> How do you know that A4's *combat speed* outshines KCM Naruto's?



Because it's shown in the manga.

-. 

- 

With these feats, it becomes obvious Naruto dodging A4 is a fluke and outlier feat, as he doesn't display consistent speed likeA4 and is outperformed in these scenarios.



Mad Scientist said:


> I know. 7G Gai did indeed surprise Madara, who was basically paralleled with SM Minato, who got busted. 7G Gai > V2 Ay.



Buddy, everyone in this thread and other forums trashed this wankery of 7 Gates Gai. Everyone here trashed your thread. But I'll make my last point:

-Madara, a character who enjoys playing around and doesn't take his opponents seriously. Hence why Gai looked impressive, on top of being an outlier.

-7 Gates Gai's fastest punch was reacted by Kisame. That same Kisame unable to react to V2 Bee, who is slower than A4.

-7 Gates Gai isn't on A4's portrayal of speed, and is merely a Jonin.



Mad Scientist said:


> So what if he didn't receive the hype beforehand? That doesn't mean he wasn't faster in either of those gates.



The fact he didn't receive the hypes that A4 have is an indication. And A4's statement >>> your opinion. End of discussion.


----------



## Stonaem (Nov 24, 2019)

Ei(4) didn't  know about KCM Naruboy, Deidara, Gai and such so he was just misinformed. Arguing from an unknown point is a fallacy so we could say he lied.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 29, 2019)

@ShinAkuma I said I would address your post and I will. It's a shame that your post was consistently filled with repeated points. But whatever...


ShinAkuma said:


> Dude....you don't get the world record until.......wait for it.....you beat the previous world record.


I never said Gai or KCM Naruto had the world record. That's like saying Usain Bolt isn't faster than all the other racers because he hasn't raced them. Hindsight informs us that he _is_ faster. We as an audience don't know that at the time, but we do when we see what he's capable of.

You have conflated potential with capability. You're taking away someone's capability by saying they can't use their powers, as in "they don't exist". That's irrelevant.



ShinAkuma said:


> More proof than you have *because the manga is telling us A4 is the fastest*.


Ay tells us. Not the manga. At least get basic facts right. Statements =/= omnipotent knowledge.



ShinAkuma said:


> None of those guys were faster at the time A4 made his statement.
> 
> Only after the fact did Naruto and 8th gate Gai prove to be faster.


8G is a part of Gai's ability and the War Arc showed he was perfectly capable of opening it.

*How The Manga Denotes Speed*: This manga shows us that (at least for Part 2), when it comes to crowning someone as "the fastest", travelling speeds, reaction/reflex speeds _and_ jutsu speeds all matter. Minato w/o FTG cannot move as fast as Ay, obviously, despite being a very fast character (travelling speed), _but_ he has reflexes (reaction speed) faster than or equal to him. This allows him, in conjunction with FTG (jutsu speed), to move extremely fast _overall_ (when he's performing at maximum capacity, this makes up his overall top speed).

*Comparison*: So let's take into account Gai's top speed, his reaction speed, and his jutsu speed.

*Top Travelling Speed*: The Eighth Gate allows Gai to move _much_ faster than KCM Minato w/Shunshin can... Base Minato's Shunshin isn't fast enough to dodge young Ay's top speed (that's why it wasn't used.) KCM Naruto's top Shunshin, however, was, and that was against a faster version of the Raikage. However, KCM Naruto has been compared to the Yellow Flash (despite not having used his top Shunshin yet). Granting Minato KCM would obviously allow him to move even faster than KCM Naruto's top speed. But this is not on the level of 8G Gai. Consider that _Sage Mode_ Minato _with FTG_ + support (in the form of distraction) was _easily_ stomped by JJ 1R Madara, whereas _7G Gai_ (not even 8G yet) was so fast that he topped Madara's expectation to the extent that Madara could only find an opening when Hirudora was prepared - and even then he failed to kill Gai. 8G is _much_ faster than 7G. At the apex, 8G Gai moved so fast that JJ Madara was shocked he was *bending* *space itself*.
*Top Reaction Speed*: 7G has Juubi Jinchuuriki-pressuring speeds (so fast that he didn't get tagged by TSBs even once) and he was so fast he reacted to a *finger twitch* in an *instant*. Whereas, base Minato only narrowly reacted to young Ay and KCM Minato reacted slower than base Tobirama.
*Top Jutsu Speed*: As I said, Night Guy had bended space itself and had JJ Madara be shocked. If you put 8G Gai in front of KCM Minato, say 20-50 metres, Minato's head would _actually_ be taken off, and at best he could probably manage a finger twitch or a hand movement - nothing that would enable him to escape. KCM/base Minato's prerequisite to using his fastest jutsu (FTG) requires his reflex/mental reflex speeds to be on par or better than his foes travelling / jutsu or technique speed. His reflexes are not faster than 8G, we've already established that. There's also him in Sage Mode getting stomped by JJ 1R Madara and not FTG'ing back despite having the "opportunity". And without prep, FTG is useless (that's a given and should be obvious). Now, 8G does have a prerequisite too - opening it. Yet, when the likes of 7G and 8G are opened, and they can be opened pretty goddamn fast, characters that are in character stand in awe - they're focused on keeping their footing and protecting their vision.
*In conclusion*: Overall, Gai is _much, much_ faster than KCM Minato.

*In this same way*: Gai is _much_, _much_ faster than Ay.



ShinAkuma said:


> Gai is not faster.
> 
> 8th Gate Gai doesn't yet exist.


He hadn't used it _then_, sure, but that doesn't mean Gai is slower. 8G is part of his ability just as much as Ay's top-speed RCM is part of his ability, just as much as C0 is part of Deidara's ability. In hindsight, we know that if Ay had raced Gai back then, Gai would win.



ShinAkuma said:


> You don't get to take future feats and retroactively apply them to pre statement A4.


That's false equivalency. I'm not _applying_ 8G Gai's speed/feat to anyone's statement. I'm simply saying Ay's statement isn't factually correct. You yourself implicitly admitted this at one time, as you said statements can have outliers.

What Ay is doing is stating an absolute, which is factually and objectively incorrect. _He_ thinks he's the fastest. That doesn't mean he _is_.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes 8th gate exists, *8th gate Gai however does not*.
> 
> You know how we know that? Because Gai wasn't *fucking dead*. Which amazingly enough still wouldn't disprove A4's statement on being the fastest shinobi *alive* because Gai would be dead.


Addressed.



ShinAkuma said:


> What
> 
> The
> 
> ...


Nope. Get your facts right. Re-read that last sentence. The funny thing is even if I did believe (base) Gai has steel hard skin, your point is still redundant since it does not address the meaning of what I originally wrote.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @ShinAkuma I said I would address your post and I will. It's a shame that your post was consistently filled with repeated points. But whatever...



This words salad is such painful nonsense.

You continually prove yourself to be be incapable of understanding basic logic.

It's unbelievable.



> I never said Gai or KCM Naruto had the world record.



Irrelevant and *shock* you don't understand analogy.



> That's like saying Usain Bolt isn't faster than all the other racers because he hasn't raced them.



What the fuck?

It's not like this at all? How did you ever come to such pants on head conclusion? (@WorldsStrongest  I'm borrowing that)

My example is literally saying that Usain Bolt wasn't the fastest man in the world until *HE PROVED HIMSELF TO BE THE FASTEST MAN IN THE WORLD*.

This is basic elementary stuff, but you're all SQUARE PEG ROUND HOLE!!!



> Hindsight informs us that he _is_ faster.



He's only faster when he has proven such, not prior.

Leave it to you to argue against the most logical and reasonable conclusion possible.



> You have conflated potential with capability.



No.

You have conflated the two. Don't project your lack of understanding on others.



> You're taking away someone's capability by saying they can't use their powers, as in "they don't exist". That's irrelevant.



They don't exist until we are shown they exist. It's temporal continuity.



> Ay tells us. Not the manga.



The manga tells us *via the characters*. This is how information is conveyed. There is no editor/writer box like in comic in manga. All information is given to us via characters.



> At least get basic facts right. Statements =/= omnipotent knowledge.



I made this point in my first reply.

It's your wacky fallacy that wants to pretend that A4 was making a no limits statement in order to cast doubt on it. However we the reader do know that he was the fastest at the time he said it as faster beings and powers had not yet been introduced. As a result he was correct.



> 8G is a part of Gai's ability and the War Arc showed he was perfectly capable of opening it.



Nobody said he couldn't.

The 8th gate power doesn't exist until Gai opens it. Since Gai wasn't dead he obviously did not open it. If he didn't open 8th gate, he's not faster.

Spoon feed.

*



			How The Manga Denotes Speed
		
Click to expand...

*


> :



You have no idea how the manga denotes speed. If you did this wouldn't even be a question.



> He hadn't used it _then_, sure, but that doesn't mean Gai is slower.



It actually literally means Gai is slower.

Gai is slower until *he proves to be faster*.

Usain Bolt wasn't the fastest man in the world until he proved to be the fastest.

This is how it works.



> 8G is part of his ability just as much as Ay's top-speed RCM is part of his ability, just as much as C0 is part of Deidara's ability. In hindsight, we know that if Ay had raced Gai back then, Gai would win.



Why do you keep talking about 8th gate? A4 already makes a provision that there are dead dudes who were faster than him via Minato. Gai could be faster with the 8th gates, but then he would get filed beside Minato  because *Gai would be dead*. A4 would still be THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE.

8th gate Gai can't even debunk A4's statement for more than 5 minutes cause he WOULD BE DEAD.



> That's false equivalency.



You don't even know what a false equivalence is do you? You literally make zero sense invoking that.

I could throw my keyboard down a flight of stairs and the gibberish that it's types would make a better argument than this.



> I'm not _applying_ 8G Gai's speed/feat to anyone's statement.



You are saying "Gai will be faster someday therefore he's faster now". That's just nonsense.



> I'm simply saying Ay's statement isn't factually correct.



It's factually correct at the time he said it.

You keep trying to ignore the context of temporal continuity in order to make your fallacious argument.

No deal.



> You yourself implicitly admitted this at one time, as you said statements can have outliers.



I literally pointed out that you should not interpret his statement with a no limit fallacy attached. However that doesn't mean he was wrong in terms of what we have seen up to that POINT.

Stop ignoring the progression of events.



> What Ay is doing is stating an absolute,



No.

You are.

In a desperate attempt to promote some nonsense about Gai.

It a problem *for you*, but any reasonable person just reads that and accepts that he is the fastest guy we know of at that point in the manga.



> which is factually and objectively incorrect. _He_ thinks he's the fastest. That doesn't mean he _is_.



He's faster than Gai at that point.



> Addressed.



Baby shaked.



> Nope. Get your facts right. Re-read that last sentence.



I literally posted *your quote*. Doesn't get more factual that the words right out of your mouth.



> The funny thing is even if I did believe (base) Gai has steel hard skin,



Which you do.



> your point is still redundant since it does not address the meaning of what I originally wrote.



It's amazing that you can type something that is wrong in 4 different ways simultaneously.

It's a talent at this point.

For one - do you even know what redundant means?

Secondly, the point is valid because  you  decided to chastise those who take the words in the manga *too literal* while  simultaneously believing Gai has steel hard skin via taking words too literal.

Not even words from the manga but words from that DATABOOK!!!

You are in no position to complain about anybody taking anything too literal Mr. "Steel Hard Skin".


----------



## Mad Scientist (Nov 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> believing Gai has steel hard skin via taking


I don't believe that base Gai has steel hard skin. Stop putting words in my mouth and pushing your presumptuous agenda. 

What you've done continually throughout your response is presume things I do not believe nor did I state. 

You are pushing your own views without actually tackling my points, such as repeating "Oh he's not the fastest until proven bla bla bla," which had already been addressed.

You have not addressed how hindsight informs us, acting as if it's a nonexistent concept. 
You imply Ay speaks for everyone yet there could potentially exist someone faster than him, perhaps in another dimension or plane, that nobody even knows about. 
You claim that people need to prove they're the fastest before they can be seen as faster than Ay. Not only have you presumed Ay's the fastest just merely based on his statement, but you simply do not understand that one does not need to prove they're faster than a specific _someone_. For example, we know that Usain Bolt is faster than a given toddler. He doesn't need to prove he's faster than it, as we already know he is fully capable of doing so. How? Knowledge. We know what kind of speed Gai possesses. Gai with 7G or 8G would obviously be faster than V2 Ay, and he had full access to those powers, at the time. 
Even if we discount all the chapters past 544 and don't use hindsight to suit your agenda, A4's statement would still be objectively questionable, due to us at the time not knowing how fast Gai's top speed is. Using scaling and predictions, one could reasonably assume that 8G at least would make Gai faster than Ay.
At this point, you will continue to spout nonsense and just continuously repeat your points, as if convincing yourself into delusion. As expected, you're not a strong debater. Instead, you're someone who heavily relies on insults and semantics based on false presumptions to make it seem as if you have countered the opposition.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I don't believe that base Gai has steel hard skin. Stop putting words in my mouth and pushing your presumptuous agenda.



It's your quote.

You typed it.

You said it.

Anybody can look at it.

That is the opposite of presumption.

Stop saying things that make no sense.



> What you've done continually throughout your response is presume things I do not believe nor did I state.



No dude I respond directly to things you say. They just so happen to be pants on head silly that now you want to backtrack.

That's the way she goes.



> You are pushing your own views without actually tackling my points, such as repeating "Oh he's not the fastest until proven bla bla bla," which had already been addressed.



You haven't addressed that *because you can't*. It's a fact. Do you know what facts are? You should probably look into those.

Just because you post some cyber vomit full of non sequitur and 46 other logical fallacies doesn't mean you "addressed" anything.



> You have not addressed how hindsight informs us, acting as if it's a nonexistent concept.


It's not addressed because it's not relevant.

Here let me address it for you.

Asafa Powell the 100m world record holder in 2008 is still the fastest man in the 100m at that time *even though Usain Bolt would beat his record in 2009*.

He didn't magically stop being the fastest guy in 2008 because of "hindsight" or whatever garbage tier nonsense your pushing.



> You imply Ay speaks for everyone yet there could potentially exist someone faster than him, perhaps in another dimension or plane, that nobody even knows about.



No.

I already told you not to interpret statements as having no limits.

Again this train of thought is *your problem not mine*. 



> You claim that people need to prove they're the fastest before they can be seen as faster than Ay.



Yes.

It's the standard set throughout the history of everything.



Again this is a you problem. The rest of the world proceeds with logic on this.



> Not only have you presumed Ay's the fastest just merely based on his statement, but you simply do not understand that one does not need to prove they're faster than a specific _someone_. For example, we know that Usain Bolt is faster than a given toddler. He doesn't need to prove he's faster than it, as we already know he is fully capable of doing so. How? Knowledge.



LOOOOOOOOOL

What the fuck?

The toddler doesn't have the world record.

You are awful at logical reasoning. This is train  wreck level fallacies.



> We know what kind of speed Gai possesses. Gai with 7G or 8G would obviously be faster than V2 Ay, and he had full access to those powers, at the time.



7G is not faster and 8th gate has yet to exist.

Doesn't matter how desperate you are to promote Gai.



> Even if we discount all the chapters past 544 and don't use hindsight to suit your agenda, A4's statement would still be objectively questionable, due to us at the time not knowing how fast Gai's top speed is.



Gai's top speed doesn't exist yet. Just like Usain Bolt's top speed didn't exist until he obtained the world record.



> Using scaling and predictions, one could reasonably assume that 8G at least would make Gai faster than Ay.



8th Gate would make him faster, but 8th gate doesn't exist for Gai at the time of the statement. As a result A4 is still correct.



> At this point, you will continue to spout nonsense and just continuously repeat your points, as if convincing yourself into delusion.



I just deal with facts and logic.  The points are repeated because you cannot provide any logical argument to the contrary.

That's not my problem.



> As expected, you're not a strong debater. Instead, you're someone who heavily relies on insults and semantics based on false presumptions to make it seem as if you have countered the opposition.



There's that "false presumptions" thing again? You said *on multiple occasions* that Gai has steel hard skin.

At least now you know that was wack as fuck.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 4) it doesn't matter if someone uses polite speech when they won't address your argument directly and uses doubletalk. They are being more, if not as, rude as if @WorldsStrongest said one of my arguments sucked big floppy donkey  dick but explained why with manga panels.



For me personally subversive or covert rudeness is far more egregious than somebody who is outright rude. At least telling you something straight up has an honesty to it. Doublespeak and avoidance is far worse to interact with.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You are pushing your own views without actually tackling my points, such as repeating "Oh he's not the fastest until proven bla bla bla," which had already been addressed.
> 
> 
> ShinAkuma said:
> ...


I did address it, Mr Dictionary Pro.



Mad Scientist said:


> You claim that people need to prove they're the fastest before they can be seen as faster than Ay. Not only have you presumed Ay's the fastest just merely based on his statement, but you simply do not understand that one does not need to prove they're faster than a specific _someone_. For example, we know that Usain Bolt is faster than a given toddler. He doesn't need to prove he's faster than it, as we already know he is fully capable of doing so. How? Knowledge. We know what kind of speed Gai possesses. Gai with 7G or 8G would obviously be faster than V2 Ay, and he had full access to those powers, at the time.



Keep those lies up, alright.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I did address it, Mr Dictionary Pro.



Denial doesn't constitute addressing anything.




> Keep those lies up, alright.





Hey look at that. Bolt wasn't the world record holder in 2008. I wonder why?

Oh that's right HE WASN'T THE FASTEST GUY YET.

You aren't faster until you show it. No amount of staring at Gai's chiseled body or wearing pants on your head will change this FACT.

You are wrong. Continually. Relentlessly. No amount of being upset at peeps pointing out your painful wrongness will ever make you any less wrong.

Adopt some logic and critical thinking. Drop the Gai related agenda.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Denial doesn't constitute addressing anything.


I addressed the point, with my own explanation. That's not simply a denial, smart guy.



Oh loOk I'm so sMart because I uNdersTand simple vErbs and can lecTure other poSters on what they mEaN dDspIte already knoWIng they Understand...!


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## Santoryu (Nov 30, 2019)




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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I addressed the point, with my own explanation. That's not simply a denial, smart guy.



ROFL

You can't "explain" away facts and reality. Offering your justification for your denial only makes clear why you're delusional it does not refute actual facts.

Being butthurt about being wrong doesn't * stop you from being wrong*.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> ROFL
> 
> You can't "explain" away facts and reality. Offering your justification for your denial only makes clear why you're delusional it does not refute actual facts.
> 
> Being butthurt about being wrong doesn't * stop you from being wrong*.



All of this just proves you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you can't concede to something so goddamn obvious, clown elsewhere, because you'll _never_ concede even if you were wrong with blatant scans in your face, just like that time you wouldn't accept Madara's personality despite _scans_ being shown in your face.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 30, 2019)

I literally posted this.... 



Homeslice responds with:



Mad Scientist said:


> All of this just proves you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you can't concede to something so goddamn obvious, clown elsewhere, because you'll _never_ concede even if you were wrong with blatant scans in your face, just like that time you wouldn't accept Madara's personality despite _scans_ being shown in your face.



This is the height of unironic irony.


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## t0xeus (Nov 30, 2019)




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