# BM Naruto & Nagato take on the "Super Gauntlet of Impossibility"



## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

Naruto & Nagato know they are in a gauntlet and will conserve stamina & chakra accordingly

*Distance:* 30
*Location:* Unraikyo
*SoM:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Restrictions:* _Rinne Tensei_

*Stipulations:*
Nagato is healthy and has his paths on reserve if he needs them, he may resync with Gedo Mazo but it will leave him emaciated until further chakra absorption.  Naruto starts out in RM but may enter BM/SM at will, _Maga: Gamarinsho_ requires prep

*....The Gauntlet:*

*Round 1:*
Edo Itachi, Minato & SM Kabuto (_Edo Tensei_ Ristricted)

*Round 2:*
Gokage, Raikagenaut, Mu, Trollkage & Raikagenaut

*Round 3:*
Jinchurki 1-8 (all are now perfect Jins)

*Round 4:*
Edo Madara & Hashirama

*Round 5:*
Survive against Lv2 Datara for 5 minutes


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

So basically it can be a healthy Nagato with Pain Rikudou and Naruto who take the gauntlet?


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## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So basically it can be a healthy Nagato with Pain Rikudou and Naruto who take the gauntlet?



pretty much


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## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

They take it at the same time?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Naruto & Nagato know they are in a gauntlet and will conserve stamina & chakra accordingly
> 
> *Distance:* 30
> *Location:* Unraikyo
> ...



They make it past 4 rounds. They survive round 5, but will die eventually given ST can't block forever and Naruto can only run for so long. 

Naruto has the potential to power up Pain Rikudou and Nagato with the Kyuubi shroud. 
And with the chameleon summon along with the Pain/clone spam, it will never be an issue when it comes to using the Maga: Gamarinsho.

The only thing that stops CT from taking round 1 is Kabuto with his Edo Tensei. However with super speed on Naruto's team (remember Nagato was able to outpace ST as a cripple) they should be able to take Kabuto out shortly and end with CT. 

With round 2, the Jinton users prevent a CT solo as well. However the enhancements should be enough for Naruto and Nagato to take them.

Round 3 onwards means no CT at all. 
However with round three it'll be hard but with extreme difficulty Naruto and Nagato can win if they manage to split up the Jinchuriki with a strong ST then send Nagato/Pain/Naruto clones to take out the Jinchuriki whilst they're separated.

Round 4 more or less forces CQC from both sides. 
Nagato and the Preta Path Pain eliminate Ninjutsu and Naruto's shroud alongside ST eliminate other long/mid range attacks.
However Madara can do the same with the Preta Path and ST (plus his fan) whilst Hashirama's Mokuton can also nullify long and mid range jutsu.

Though if they can keep this stalemate going, Naruto can win with his Genjutsu. Especially if he alongside Nagato and Pain while a SM clone with the toads sets up the Genjutsu. 
With current feats and factoring in the Naruto enhancements, Naruto and Nagato can take this with extreme difficulty. 

Datara, they survive till Datara goes nuts and spams its ultra Bijuu Damas


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## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> They take it at the same time?



Yeah they are fighting as a team


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## Kai (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy, I've never disagreed more with your assessment. It's way off the mark.

Madara and Hashirama are flat out more powerful than Naruto and Nagato yet you expect the two to beat them after utterly exhausting themselves from previous rounds?

I'm pretty confident Naruto and Nagato will succumb to 8 bijuus (_perfect_ jins for this thread) after fighting Itachi, Minato, SM Kabuto, and *nine kages* without any form of rest.

They should lose to Round 3. By the time they face Madara and Hashirama and if that, Naruto shouldn't be able to access Bijuu Mode whatsoever.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Kai said:


> Munboy, I've never disagreed more with your assessment. It's way off the mark.
> 
> Madara and Hashirama are flat out more powerful than Naruto and Nagato yet you expect the two to beat them after utterly exhausting themselves from previous rounds?
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't Naruto be able to access BM? He's at peace with Kurama now, so as Gyuuki said, Kurama shouldn't take so much chakra. On top of that, powering seven foes who can defend themselves quite well wouldn't be as chakra draining as defending an entire alliance. 
There's always the idea of Naruto using the SM fusion if he needs to, or having a clone do so whilst he keeps BM. 

I'm sure a lot of jutsu will be send towards Naruto and Nagato/Pain which would essentially rejuvenate the latter if the former doesn't provide him with a chakra boost. 

Of course a lot of my post assumed Naruto would power up Nagato and Pain with his Kyuubi shroud. Plus a side SM clone who can actually fuse is another story altogether. The OP suggested the Genjutsu is optional, suggesting that ITT Naruto would be more prone to summoning Ma and Pa; they're usually up for the fusion idea.

Then there's the fact Pain would be so close to Nagato; Nagato suggested that the jutsu output would be greater the closer Pain was. As suggested by the fact that God Realm couldn't use a powerful CT without coming closer, further his Shinra Tensei seemed more powerful compared to most of the ones he used in Konoha.


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## Kai (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why wouldn't Naruto be able to access BM? He's at peace with Kurama now, so as Gyuuki said, Kurama shouldn't take so much chakra.


Naruto and Kurama still have a time limit for their Bijuu Mode.


This unavoidable condition will continue to exist throughout the gauntlet.



> There's always the idea of Naruto using the SM fusion if he needs to, or having a clone do so whilst he keeps BM.


SM Fusion isn't an in character procedure for Naruto under any circumstance.



> I'm sure a lot of jutsu will be send towards Naruto and Nagato/Pain which would essentially rejuvenate the latter if the former doesn't provide him with a chakra boost.


Nagato begins healthy as the stipulations have outlined, so rejuvenation is a rather redundant aspect of the fight until Nagato syncs with Gedo Mazo. Rejuvenating through Preta Path will bring him back to the "prime" state we're all familiar with and how he starts off in the gauntlet.



> Of course a lot of my post assumed Naruto would power up Nagato and Pain with his Kyuubi shroud.


Nagato uses Preta Path even once while immersed in the shroud and it disappears.  



> Then there's the fact Pain would be so close to Nagato; Nagato suggested that the jutsu output would be greater the closer Pain was. As suggested by the fact that God Realm couldn't use a powerful CT without coming closer, further his Shinra Tensei seemed more powerful compared to most of the ones he used in Konoha.


Yeah, but Nagato has never in the history of his life fought together with his Paths. They are an _alternative_ form of combat because of his physical atrophy, not an _additive_ one to his power.


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## Jizznificent (Apr 30, 2013)

I don't think they can make it any further than madara and hashirama, Since madara and hashirama are pretty much the two strongest individual in the manga as of now (bar rikudou). Hashi and madz also have a lot of history together so I think they'll understand each other pretty well and their team work will be just fine.


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## ImSerious (Apr 30, 2013)

whats lv2 datara?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto and Kurama still have a time limit for their Bijuu Mode.
> 
> 
> This unavoidable condition will continue to exist throughout the gauntlet.



When I said BM, I meant the lesser BM version i.e. the V2. 



> SM Fusion isn't an in character procedure for Naruto under any circumstance.



We don't know that. We just know there's no circumstance where he's willing to use it.
With limited back up, it is likely such a circumstance would be forced given the competitors in the super gauntlet. 



> Nagato begins healthy as the stipulations have outlined, so rejuvenation is a rather redundant aspect of the fight until Nagato syncs with Gedo Mazo. Rejuvenating through Preta Path will bring him back to the "prime" state we're all familiar with and how he starts off in the gauntlet.



Wrong word in my case, I meant rejuvenate as in his chakra reserves would be restored. 



> Nagato uses Preta Path even once while immersed in the shroud and it disappears.



This is true.  Though Naruto and Nagato would know this already. If they were going to make use of the shrouded Nagato, then I imagine that he'll remain close to Naruto in case he's forced to use the Preta Path. 



> Yeah, but Nagato has never in the history of his life fought together with his Paths. They are an _alternative_ form of combat because of his physical atrophy, not an _additive_ one to his power.



According to the OP, they can be used alongside himself.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The only thing that stops CT from taking round 1 is Kabuto with his Edo Tensei. However with super speed on Naruto's team (remember Nagato was able to outpace ST as a cripple) they should be able to take Kabuto out shortly and end with CT.



V1 Nagato's Chibaku Tensei is going to be too powerful. Naruto will die in the crossfire.


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## Jizznificent (Apr 30, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> whats lv2 datara?


The juubi goes by many names. One of them is datara.

So datara lv2 is the juubi's second form.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> V1 Nagato's Chibaku Tensei is going to be too powerful. Naruto will die in the crossfire.



Nagato can kind of chose what gets sucked into Chibaku Tensei and what doesn't....


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Nagato can kind of chose what gets sucked into Chibaku Tensei and what doesn't....



Since when.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since when.



since he used the attack while standing less than 10 meters away from naruto, edo itachi and bee....


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## ZE (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since when.



manga
...


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> since he launched the orb less than 10 meters away from Naruto, Edo Itachi and Bee....



Then Itachi's idea of relying on Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull to draw in their attacks was a real shitty strategy I guess.




			
				ZE said:
			
		

> manga
> ...



Wrong.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Then Itachi's idea of relying on Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull to draw in their attacks was a real shitty strategy I guess.



Or Nagato's control isn't good enough or doesn't extend to object that are far away from himself...


And itachi relying on the pull or not, how do you explain nagato being less than 10 meters away, yet not affected by the technique?


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## ZE (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Wrong.



I know you're wrong. No need to remind me.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Or Nagato can't actually control what it sucks up.


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## ZE (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> And itachi relying on the pull or not, how do you explain nagato being less than 10 meters away, yet not affected by the technique?



He doesn't, won't, and can't explain it. And that's that. 



Rocky said:


> Or Nagato can't actually control what it sucks up.



Or he can as it was shown in the manga. 
Now, unless you prove the manga wrong here, there's nothing you can do.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Or Nagato can't actually control what it sucks up.



then it comes down to what you personally think is more plausible:

that nagato can't actually control what is affected by the gravity of the technique, yet somehow doesn't get affected by the gravity himself

or that nagato has limited control over what is affected by the gravity of the technique.

We already know that he is actively linked to chibaku tensei and has some control over it as he is able to increase the size of the mini moon even after it's complete.  IMO it seems the second assumption is the more plausible one.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

It was never implied at all that Nagato can manually control the gravitational pull of that technique. The very opposite was inferred when Itachi pointed out the flaw and used against Nagato. 

Nagato remains unaffected for the same reason Mei remains unaffected by her acidic mist while it's melting Susano'o. Or for the reason Danzou was unaffected by Baku's suction, or why the Mizukage wasn't put in his own mirage. See a pattern yet.


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## Kai (Apr 30, 2013)

Using Nagato himself to determine his ability of selective gravity manipulation for CT is fool's logic given the common "user immunity" most shinobi in the manga possess over their own techniques.

Use a better example- it proves nothing.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It was never implied at all that Nagato can manually control the gravitational pull of that technique. The very opposite was inferred when Itachi pointed out the flaw and used against Nagato.


cmon rocky, I've already addressed these points earlier in the thread.  if you have beef with my arguments, you know that you have to address them.



Rocky said:


> Nagato remains unaffected for the same reason Mei remains unaffected by her acidic mist while it's melting Susano'o. Or for the reason Danzou was unaffected by Baku's suction, or why the Mizukage wasn't put in his own mirage. See a pattern yet.



but if there are explanations that we can come up with that are supported by nagato's ability to control the gravity of his techniques, then is that not an advancement in knowledge?  

The mizukage uses the mist as a catalyst for his own genjutsu which is why the clam alone can't produce the genjutsu, it needs the yin master in order to do it.  Thus he wouldn't be affected by his own genjutsu because the mist is only a catalyst, not the full cause.

And evidence would suggest Mei has some kind of limited localized control over her acidic mist as zetsu is barely shows any signs of acid damage by it *until she directly hits him with a shot to the face.*

And wouldn't that same 'unexplainable' logic about jutsu not affecting the user apply to the user's team?  We've seen frog call not affect SM Naruto, or bunta's durability being applied to base naruto when he took a fuuton bullet, frog song not affecting SM jiraiya.  Why wouldn't the same team immunity logic apply here?



Kai said:


> Using Nagato himself to determine his ability of selective gravity manipulation for CT is fool's logic given the common "user immunity" most shinobi in the manga possess over their own techniques.
> 
> Use a better example- it proves nothing.


yet Kai, if we can find feats or logic to explain why a certain user would have immunity over his own technique, I think that its a better explanation than to just chuck it up as a basic assumption because we do see that user immunity does not apply to all shinobi.  And then if you want to argue user immunity, then for the sake of what we are arguing in the thread, I could argue user-team immunity which we find examples of in the manga as well.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Your arguments is basically Nagato has control but not enough to avoid drawing in the attacks... 

What is that? So how are you so sure that Nagato has enough control to keep Naruto grounded?


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Your arguments is basically Nagato has control but not enough to avoid drawing in the attacks...
> 
> What is that? So how are you so sure that Nagato has enough control to keep Naruto grounded?



As I said earlier, his control of what gets affected and what does not would be a function of the distance the object is away from himself, which would make sense since he's able to keep himself and apparently the ground beneath himself from being sucked up into the technique else he'd be up there with naruto, bee and itachi regardless if he and only he was not affected by the pull or not.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

So the only reason Itachi's strategy succeeded was because the distance between them and Nagato was too great for Nagato's apparent range in which he can control what is effected. 


How convenient of Kishimoto to leave that explanation out of the Manga entirely.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 30, 2013)

Ah, so they don't get rest after each fight? Lol, they're making it to round 4, *at best.* If I had to choose, I say they lose at round 3.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So the only reason Itachi's strategy succeeded was because the distance between them and Nagato was too great for Nagato's apparent range in which he can control what is effected.
> 
> 
> How convenient of Kishimoto to leave that explanation out of the Manga entirely.



In other words, Itachi was out of Nagato's range.

That's it.  And kishimoto doesn't have to go and explain how every single technique works or abilities of every character in order for us to make logical inferences about how they work, their limits etc. 

Kishi doesn't tell us that nagato doesn't have to be the epicenter of banshou tennin, but we can see via feats that nagato has the ability to use it like that.

Kishi doesn't tell us how Nagato got behind bee after blasting him with shinra tensei, thus we have to come up with ways of explaining that and see which one caters to the least assumptions.

The list goes on and on.  You could pretty much reject any claim that kishi hasn't flat out stated and with "how convenient of kishi to leave that explanation out of the manga entirely", and thus it would be nigh impossible to get anywhere when discussing two characters in a manga with limited feats and showings. 

And rocky, all you are doing is going on the offensive and trying to discredit my explanation while not attempting to support your own or see how explanatory deficient your own is.

We are both faced with explanations that can't be proven to be true by the manga, thus like I've said earlier on this page, you have to decide which explanation would be more supported by the manga.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

User immunity *is* worth noting because if Nagato's CT is that powerful and he can't control it, the ground he'd standing on would be taken too. Last I checked Nagato would fall under "user immunity", not the ground he stands on.



Rocky said:


> V1 Nagato's Chibaku Tensei is going to be too powerful. Naruto will die in the crossfire.



Prove it. All we know he, he throws CT and it draws in his target and some surrounding earth. Quite certainly not the earth that surrounds him. In other words, if Naruto is by Nagato, he'll be fine.


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## Samehadaman (Apr 30, 2013)

I see them struggling past round 1, let alone be fresh enough to defeat a team of eight Kages working as a team!


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's it.  And kishimoto doesn't have to go and explain how every single technique works or abilities of every character in order for us to make logical inferences about how they work, their limits etc.




Yes of course.

Itachi didn't really figure out the mechanics behind Chibaku Tensei. His theory that their attacks would be drawn it wouldn't have actually worked had he been closer to Nagato. Itachi got lucky, his analysis of the Jutsu was completely off. He had no way of knowing if he was "out of Nagato's range." Actually, Itachi never knew Nagato had a range. Had the trio been closer to Nagato, he would have been able to stop their attacks and cause Itachi's plan to fail miserably. It was luck. It was pure luck that they had gained the necessary distance before Itachi came up with a solution to the pull. Yes of course. Of course. Boy it's a bad day to be an Uchiha fan. No more using Itachi's achievements against Chibaku Tensei as intelligence feats.


So, enlighten me. What if, say, the only thing Nagato can handle is keeping himself and the ground below him safe from the pull? What if the extra body he tries to keep grounded proves too much and he looses control, sending both of them to their death?


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes of course.
> 
> Itachi didn't really figure out the mechanics behind Chibaku Tensei. His theory that their attacks would be drawn it wouldn't have actually worked had he been closer to Nagato. Itachi got lucky, his analysis of the Jutsu was completely off. He had no way of knowing if he was "out of Nagato's range." Actually, Itachi never knew Nagato had a range. Had the trio been closer to Nagato, he would have been able to stop their attacks and cause Itachi's plan to fail miserably. It was luck. It was pure luck that they had gained the necessary distance before Itachi came up with a solution to the pull. Yes of course. Of course. Boy it's a bad day to be an Uchiha fan. No more using Itachi's achievements against Chibaku Tensei as intelligence feats.


um....  how would itachi not knowing about the FULL abilities of Nagato mean that his theory was completely off? 

Itachi formulated a theory about Chibaku Tensei's mechanics based on the information that he currently had just like Kakashi formulated the theory about banshou tennin and shinra tensei based on the information he had (a theory that was later proven false).  Using that information, Itachi developed the best possible strategy in order to get them out of the situation they were in.  And since nagato has only shown the ability to localize gravity control of CT, his theory was correct for the situation they were in.  

And pretty much any theory in any battle will consist of a person filling the gaps in the theory with assumptions that may or may not be true, however the theory which caters to the least amount of assumptions in order to explain the situation at hand would be the best possible explanation, and that's exactly what Itachi created.
Even if Nagato could cancel CT's pull at Itachi, Bee and Naruto's location, itachi's plan would still have been the best one there, and thus in no way is it a blow to itachi's intelligence feat as he either could have already made assumptions about nagato's ability to control gravity on small objects far away from himself or didn't have any compelling information at hand in order to make that kind of judgement.  Either way, that knowledge would have had zero affect on the strategy he devised.



Rocky said:


> So, enlighten me. What if, say, the only thing Nagato can handle is keeping himself and the ground below him safe from the pull? What if the extra body he must keep grounded proves too much and he looses control, sending both of them to their death?


well, you'd have to back that assertion up with some kind of manga evidence of something that would imply that all nagato could do is struggle to keep himself grounded.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well, you'd have to back that assertion up with some kind of manga evidence of something that would imply that all nagato could do is struggle to keep himself grounded.




I'm playing devils advocate against this theory that was invented by you.

___________​

He's perfectly fine when it's just himself. But add Naruto, and what's to say he wont struggle, slip up, loose control, and kill them both?

Since he's never actually kept more than 1 person grounded before, It's on you to prove he can go beyond that.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

It is actually up to you to prove that CT is so unstable that Nagato can't determine what gets pulled in when obviously only the pieces of earth in front of him tends to get used.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Or Nagato's control isn't good enough or doesn't extend to object that are far away from himself...
> 
> 
> And itachi relying on the pull or not, how do you explain nagato being less than 10 meters away, yet not affected by the technique?



Or maybe people aren't effected by their own ninjutsu is general, like how Sasuke doesn't electrocute himself with nagashi, and Mei doesn't melt herself with her acid even though it can friendly fire other people and she can't control its spread.  

Or when she wipes lava off of her mouth without it searing her flesh off.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Or maybe people aren't effected by their own ninjutsu is general, like how Sasuke doesn't electrocute himself with nagashi, and Mei doesn't melt herself with her acid even though it can friendly fire other people and she can't control its spread.
> 
> Or when she wipes lava off of her mouth without it searing her flesh off.



Or it could be because they've got really good control over their Ninjutsu. For example remember part 1 Sasuke whose Katon hurt him *when he didn't have control over his jutsu*. Or Naruto when he didn't perfect FRS.

We're throwing a lot of "maybes" around here. All because of a baseless assertion that Nagato cannot use CT with comrades around. The ground behind Nagato was safe. Also with Pain, we can see clearly a selected piece of earth is taken in. 

If anything there is no evidence at all that implies that CT would be detrimental to any comrade of Nagato's, or any Rinnegan user using CT for that matter.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Why don't you prove it.



			
				PoW said:
			
		

> Mei doesn't melt herself with her acid even though it can friendly fire other people and she can't control its spread.



 ^ He pointed out a perfect example.

Mei is Nagato. Chibaku Tensei is the Acidic Mist. Mei uses it at full power, and she remains fine while Susano'o Sasuke starts to melt. Sauce breaks a hole in the wall, letting the mist into a room full of her _*comrades*_, yet according to the Mizukage herself, they're still in danger until Mei turns the intensity of the Jutsu down. If Onoki was chilling in that room with Mei and Sauce, are you implying he would be perfectly fine just because Mei was?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why don't you prove it.



Already showed twice where CT only takes pieces of earth from a selected area. Further that the vicinity around the user is safe i.e. Naruto doesn't need to worry so long he's alongside Nagato.

However your stance still seems baseless because you've not done anything to support it. All you've done is literally just say that CT would pull Naruto in.

Furthermore a false analogy doesn't help your point.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Did you just call a claim that CT effects everyone but Nagato.....baseless..?


And the analogy wasn't false. Your entire argument is based upon the premises that Naruto will remain unaffected by Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull because Nagato wasn't. The analogy proves that Jutsu can be detrimental to comrades while the caster remains safe. 

Claiming the "land under Nagato wasn't effected either!" is nitpicking bullshit akin to saying something like "Mei's clothes weren't burned off by the acidic mist so her team could fight in it just fine!".


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Did you just call a claim that CT effects everyone but Nagato.....baseless..?



No, I am saying that your assertion that Nagato's ally ITT would be affected is baseless.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Nagato's ally is not Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nagato's ally is not Nagato.



As I said before, your assertion is baseless and entirely a product of your speculation. Especially when we've got scans of selected pieces of earth being drawn in i.e. nothing should happen to Nagato's ally if he's standing with Nagato on the pieces of unaffected earth.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As I said before, your assertion is baseless and entirely a product of your speculation. Especially when we've got scans of selected pieces of earth being drawn in i.e. nothing should happen to Nagato's ally if he's standing with Nagato on the pieces of unaffected earth.




I suppose nothing should happen to Onoki when he fights in the acidic mist either, considering it didn't burn Mei or her clothes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I suppose nothing should happen to Onoki when he fights in the acidic mist either, considering it didn't burn Mei or her clothes.



Once again, using false analogies doesn't help your point. Mei *explicitly* said her mist could harm her allies. No such thing was so much as implicated with CT, in fact we clearly see only selected pieces of earth being warped. So the allies could just stand by Nagato, in the unselected pieces of earth.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

It was never implied that Nagato's allies were safe from Chibaku Tensei either.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It was never implied that Nagato's allies were safe from Chibaku Tensei either.



True, because the topic was never touched upon. However we've got Nagato's location and the parts behind it all safe. That suggests Nagato's allies could be safe. 

However the only way your assertion holds water is if his allies choose to stand on the pieces of earth that get taken.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

If Naruto is completely out of the Jutsu'a circular area of effect, sure he'll be safe. 

You know Itachi has knowledge of the Jutsu and will most likley inform his teammates. Minato will have tags spread, so he'll just take everyone out of the Jutsu's area of effect, where Naruto is apparently standing.


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## Trojan (Apr 30, 2013)

> Round 1:
> Edo Itachi, Minato & SM Kabuto (Edo Tensei Ristricted)



Is this Edo Minato, or no? 
If Minato is also an edo then Naruto & Nagato will lose this round, they just can't win here. 

and if not they still may lose, because 
1- Minato's speed is a problem Naruto won't be able to hit him! 
2- Itachi is an Edo and they don't have sealing jutsu other than GM, which if Nagato did it he'll lose a lot! 
3- SF, regardless, this jutsu can't be seen so neither Nagato nor Naruto will know about it which mean 

* Nagato will be sealed
or
* Naruto/ Kurama's chakra will be sealed. 

in both cases they will lose a lot as if the first one happened 
Naruto will lose because he has nothing to seal Itachi with, so the fight can go forever. 

if the second thing happen, then Nagato can win by CT or GM. 
but that will cast him a lot of his chakra. 


> Round 2:
> Gokage, Raikagenaut, Mu, Trollkage & Raikagenaut



Whatever happen in the first round, they will not be able to win this.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If Naruto is completely out of the Jutsu'a circular area of effect, sure he'll be safe.







> You know Itachi has knowledge of the Jutsu and will most likley inform his teammates. Minato will have tags spread, so he'll just take everyone out of the Jutsu's area of effect, where Naruto is apparently standing.



Tags are meaningless when the pieces of earth will be taken up, on top of that the kunai will be drawn towards the core. However as I said, Kabuto prevents insta CT wins with his Muu ET. 

CT is but one way Naruto and Nagato+Pain could take it. 

Sure if Minato can tag that far assuming he's not got to focus on his two foes. Which is unlikely as the Seven Paths of Pain alongside their summons will command his attention as well as Naruto who can increase his numbers; one BM Naruto is bad enough.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tags are meaningless when the pieces of earth will be taken up, on top of that the kunai will be drawn towards the core.



Not if Minato has tags outside of the Jutsu's area of effect, where Nagato & Naruto are.



> CT is but one way Naruto and Nagato+Pain could take it.



Naruto can solo the 1st match. I never refuted that. Well, none of them can hurt him, except for a Minato with his Death seal.

Minato can counter CT by going behind Nagato apparently, where the unaffected land and Naruto are. Does that stop Naruto from massacring them when they get there, no. Did they counter Chibaku Tensei, yes.



> Sure if Minato can tag that far assuming he's not got to focus on his two foes. Which is unlikely as the Seven Paths of Pain alongside their summons will command his attention as well as Naruto who can increase his numbers; one BM Naruto is bad enough.



Minato's tags will be everywhere. They will be with his Kunai, they could be on anything he touches, he could give Kunai to his allies, etc. There's a large chance Minato will have some sort of Kunai or tag outside of CT's range if the safe zone is behind Nagato.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not if Minato has tags outside of the Jutsu's area of effect, where Nagato & Naruto are.



If he tags it well done. Though I wouldn't hinge on that given how unlikely. I would've used the non-tagged version of FTG to support the idea of him getting himself and his team mates out of that jam.



> Naruto can solo the 1st match. I never refuted that. Well, none of them can hurt him, except for a Minato with his Death seal.
> 
> Minato can counter CT by going behind Nagato apparently, where the unaffected land and Naruto are. Does that stop Naruto from massacring them when they get there, no. Did they counter Chibaku Tensei, yes.



Well if you want to play it like that sure. Assuming those parts of the earth don't get drawn in; Nagato mentioned he could enlarge it i.e. bring more pieces of earth. Of course Minato has the non tag variant Tobirama uses.



> Minato's tags will be everywhere. They will be with his Kunai, they could be on anything he touches, he could give Kunai to his allies, etc. There's a large chance Minato will have some sort of Kunai or tag outside of CT's range if the safe zone is behind Nagato.



Oh, they *will* be everywhere?! Doubtful, they'll only be where Minato can throw his kunai or where he places his palm. Now unless he decides to touch every little place and drop his kunai in every little location... Then his kunai _won't_ be everywhere. 

A large chance? Of course not. A chance, possible. However you're hinging on just a small chance. Again if you're going to use FTG as a counter, at least use the most effective variation - the one that doesn't use tags.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

You admitted that the space behind Nagato was a safe zone. Are you suggesting Nagato will find a position in which there are no tags behind him to use Chibaku Tensei?

And Minato can teleport without his seals now?


----------



## Sans (Apr 30, 2013)

Nagato lovers prove their continued descent into insanity.

It's not possible that users of Chibaku Tensei aren't affected by their own technique, like everyone else in Naruto; or every shounen ever.

No. Don't be ridiculous! We need some wanking thrown in there!

Obviously what was stated to be a weakness and used against it in the manga is false. Nagato has no weaknesses. Itachi was just lucky that when he discerned the technique, he happened to not be standing too close to Nagato. Boy gee whiz, I can definitely see where you take that from the scene. Especially since Itachi could see Nagato just standing there not being affected, and it didn't impact his assessment whatsoever. 

REGARDLESS.

Naturally, because Nagato has no weaknesses, there was actually this small area of minor flaws that the Great Lord Nagato could not control. Itachi happened to be standing right in that one, so that when he made an analysis that was totally wrong and relayed it to Naruto and Kirabi, they all happened to get lucky. Because as we all know, no one can actually defeat Nagato legitimately, only through the most heinous of plot no jutsu can his overmighty stature be overcome.

I'm so glad we all applied our incredible detective skills to the case. If we hadn't been totally reasonable lazy, we might have mistakenly thought that the Great Lord Nagato actually had one weakness in his otherwise perfect arsenal.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You admitted that the space behind Nagato was a safe zone. Are you suggesting Nagato will find a position in which there are no tags behind him to use Chibaku Tensei?
> 
> And Minato can teleport without his seals now?



Indeed, but you're taking a leap of faith assuming Minato will label every little thing he'll touch. 

Yeah, but it seems limited to certain distances (seemingly going by Tobirama) and it is also how he took Hiruzen to the Hokage monument. Also how he got on top of Kurama before he summoned Gamabunta.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

The beauty of this is Nagato isn't going to know the location of all of Minato's seals. 

But I'm not going to argue this if you're going to let me say that Minato can utilize Hiraishin without his seals. If that's the case, then he get's behind Nagato and avoids Chibaku Tensei by doing that.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The beauty of this is Nagato isn't going to know the location of all of Minato's seals.
> 
> But I'm not going to argue this if you're going to let me say that Minato can utilize Hiraishin without his seals. If that's the case, then he get's behind Nagato and avoids Chibaku Tensei by doing that.



Granted. However ITT alongside his own sensing and shared vision, he'll have Naruto's emotion and chakra detection to back up. In other words this team won't lose Minato. 

I won't argue against that. Especially since I made that point.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Granted. However ITT alongside his own sensing and shared vision, he'll have Naruto's emotion and chakra detection to back up. In other words this team won't lose Minato.
> 
> I won't argue against that. Especially since I made that point.



Sensing ability wont help if he used FTG. 
1- Because he'll disappear. 
2- he can strike them directly when he appears.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Sensing ability wont help if he used FTG.
> 1- Because he'll disappear.
> 2- he can strike them directly when he appears.



He doesn't disappear long enough to make them let their guard down like Obito does with Kamui. The moment he disappears, he'll reappear and be detected once more. Even Obito was detected the moment he reappeared.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Yay we've finally settled this one.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

They theoretically could make it to round 4 assuming they played it perfect with no hitch but i'd say they'd stop at round 3 (granted they'd take a *good chunk* of the jins down with them)


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## Trojan (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He doesn't disappear long enough to make them let their guard down like Obito does with Kamui. The moment he disappears, he'll reappear and be detected once more. Even Obito was detected the moment he reappeared.



- but do they have time? because he can attack directly as I said. 
2
2

if he used that with SF, he will kill one of them for sure because when it hit them
there is no Jutsu will be activated. So that can be really deadly.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - but do they have time? because he can attack directly as I said.
> 2
> 2
> 
> ...



The question is would an IC Minato sacrifice his life, knowing the disadvantage Itachi & Kabuto would be at against either Naruto or Nagato, as both have the ability to one shot via Bijudama, _Maga: Gamarinsho_, CT or CST

If Minato sacrifices himself Kabuto & Itachi are dying via systematic nuking by either Nagato/Naruto (his S/T is the only thing that _prevents_ it), they are not going to be reserved about bringing out there uber guns if it becomes a 2 vs. 1 match


----------



## Trojan (Apr 30, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> The question is would an IC Minato sacrifice his life, knowing the disadvantage Itachi & Kabuto would be at against either Naruto or Nagato?
> 
> Which would mean instant death for his teammates..... Itachi & SM Kabuto are getting fodderized by BM Naruto, while them beating a healthy Nagato with Gedo Mazo is highly skeptical as either CT/CST (or both) end the match



Well Ic Minato wont hurt his son. 
but, yes, if he need to that he will do it. 

- instant death? Itachi is an edo here so he won't die. 
and IC Naruto won't use his speed none stop, he hardly use it actually. 

and for your conclusion, if Minato used SF, he'll kill Naruto since he's the stronger one there. 
and then KAbuto & Itachi can give Nagato a really bad battle, that even if he won, he will not be
able to fight the second round. 

Now, if Minato took Nagato with him, Naruto can't win because he has no sealing jutsu
and that's mean Itachi will stay forever. Thus this teem will win. 

conclusion, the outcome of this battle is one of the two will die because of Minato. Regardless
 who is he, they will lose in round 2 with no hope to win.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Well Ic Minato wont hurt his son.
> but, yes, if he need to that he will do it.
> 
> - instant death? Itachi is an edo here so he won't die.
> and IC Naruto won't use his speed none stop, he hardly use it actually.



He will be obliterated, and simply have his soul taken while he reforms.... so it's a two step process instead of one 

Um Naruto uses whenever it is nessacry, not that he really has to... when he can transform into Kurama



TorJaN said:


> and for your conclusion, if Minato used SF, he'll kill Naruto since he's the stronger one there.



Thats _IF_ he gets a chance to use it... seeing he has to form handseals, and Kurama has knowledge on it, you honestly think Naruto & Nagato wouldn't just erase him off the planet right at that moment



TorJaN said:


> and then KAbuto & Itachi can give Nagato a really bad battle, that even if he won, he will not be
> able to fight the second round.



Except Minato isn't pulling of Shikki Fujin with BM/RM clones running around the the field, he has ZERO safe spot to perform the hand seals necessary 



TorJaN said:


> Now, if Minato took Nagato with him, Naruto can't win because he has no sealing jutsu
> and that's mean Itachi will stay forever. Thus this teem will win.



Thats great..... what is the legitement likely hood, of Minato landing _Shikki Fuujin_ on Naruto, when Kurama will simply tell him to _Flash Shunshin_ out of Minato's LoS, the second he sees him form the seals



TorJaN said:


> conclusion, the outcome of this battle is one of the two will die because of Minato. Regardless
> who is he, they will lose in round 2 with no hope to win.



Conclusion is Minato will be killed first while, shortly followed by his comrads



Or they simply gun to kill Minato first....... seeing Naruto & Nagato have full intel on what the formers father is capable off thanks to Kurama


----------



## Magician (Apr 30, 2013)

They get up to Hashi and Madara and get shit raped.


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## Octavian (May 1, 2013)

round 4 is definitely impossible as the uzumaki duo will be too exhausted at this stage that they will get steamrolled by hashirama. though i don't think they can beat hashirama even if they started fresh. madara will likely provide commentary


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## ueharakk (May 1, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm playing devils advocate against this theory that was invented by you.
> 
> ___________​
> 
> ...


I don't have a burden of proof to_ prove_ anything and neither do you since when evaluating a subjective manga with limited feats and information, there are going to be almost nothing we can actually _prove_ to be true.

And thus most of our arguments are based off of the most supported explanation.

So if you ask the question: "can he keep more than 1 person grounded" the burden of proof is on me to simply show that there is more evidence for that notion that he can versus that he can't. 

And the evidence I would bring to the table would be that in order for nagato to not get sucked into his own technique, he'd have to be able to control both the gravity affecting him, and the gravity affecting the ground on which he stands on which would show that he can in fact control a lot than just himself when his technique is launched and thus would be positive evidence for the notion that exempting another human-sized character from chibaku tensei's gravity would not be significant for him.


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## Trojan (May 1, 2013)

> =Joakim3;47089561]He will be obliterated, and simply have his soul taken while he reforms.... so it's a two step process instead of one
> 
> Um Naruto uses whenever it is nessacry, not that he really has to... when he can transform into Kurama



- How so? ~~ 
- So all his fight against Obito and Madara he didn'y see that necessary? 
and if he transform to Kurama that will be easier to seal! 


> Thats _IF_ he gets a chance to use it... seeing he has to form handseals, and Kurama has knowledge on it, you honestly think Naruto & Nagato wouldn't just erase him off the planet right at that moment



and who will stop him? Naruto is not able to hit Obito who's slower than Minato
how he suppose to hit his father? 

Yeah, I do think so + Minato can always set up a berries if he want some time!  


> Except Minato isn't pulling of Shikki Fujin with BM/RM clones running around the the field, he has ZERO safe spot to perform the hand seals necessary



he can make a barrier as I said above
handseals

and making a lot of clones will make him weaker + the OP said they will try to not
waste their chakra. 


> Thats great..... what is the legitement likely hood, of Minato landing _Shikki Fuujin_ on Naruto, when Kurama will simply tell him to _Flash Shunshin_ out of Minato's LoS, the second he sees him form the seals



Zero? 
1- Minato is faster than Naruto
2- he can set up a barrier to NOT let anyone go out
3- he can use it against Nagato not necessarily Naruto. 

Also, Kabuto is there he can give the ground life and made it move to Minato's side
so he can get them! 


> Conclusion is Minato will be killed first while, shortly followed by his comrads


Lolololololol 

that's if there is anything to hit him, had it been so, Naruto would have killed Obito long time
ago. Even the Huge attacks like TBB it can be redirect by S/T barrier. 

These S/T jutsus are broken, I'm amazed some people don't see that yet. 


> Or they simply gun to kill Minato first....... seeing Naruto & Nagato have full intel on what the formers father is capable off thanks to Kurama



Oh please give it a rest, you are talking as if they will wait for them and they will remain in their
places! All the 3 (Minato, Itachi & Kabuto) are MUCH more intelligent than Naruto & Nagato.  

Raw power is not everything! if there is team who will start with strategy they are not Naruto
and Nagato, that for sure.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 1, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> *Round 1:*
> Edo Itachi, Minato & SM Kabuto (_Edo Tensei_ Ristricted)



BM Naruto and Nagato win casually.

Minato may get away with warping one or several Bijudama away to distant locations. But once BM Naruto recognizes this pattern, a continuous barrage of said attack will leave the entire opposing team regenerating, or dead (in the case of SM Kabuto). At which point, Nagato can hop over and voluntarily suck their souls as Itachi finishes regenerating.



> *Round 2:*
> Gokage, Raikagenaut, Mu, Trollkage & Raikagenaut



These are not Edo Tensei, correct? Why the hell are there *two* Raikagenaut?

The only weapon that is likely to pose a threat to BM Naruto in this case is Onoki/Mu's combined Super Jinton, and even still, I doubt said attacks will efficiently land given the former's acute sensing and incredible speed. 

We've also seen that Naruto typically unleashes a roar to disperse a large group of enemies, and performing likewise here will stun the entire enemy for more than a few seconds - as the roar itself was calc'ed to be 2.2 Megatons, far higher than any of the Kage have been shown to survive - even the Third Raikage. If the roar doesn't kill them from the get-go, the incoming Bijudama/CST certainly will.



> *Round 3:*
> Jinchurki 1-8 (all are now perfect Jins)



Wow. This is a hard one. 

We did get the implication that the Kyuubi equalled all the other Bijuu combined in sheer chakra/raw power, when Kisame noted how essential it was for all eight Bijuu to be eaten first by the Mazo, before finally submitting the Kyuubi. It's not as if the claim is entirely unsupported; matching the combined blasts of five of said Beasts when the latter had far more time to charge their Bijudama (hence, indicating it was casual), lends credence to it.

It's hard to say, really. I think Nagato using the Gedo Mazo will come into play here; the thing is quite dangerous on its own with its Nine Dragons. Who knows what effect they'll have on the Bijuu, but it isn't likely to be harmless.

I'm giving this to BM Naruto + Nagato, high-extreme difficulty.



> *Round 4:*
> Edo Madara & Hashirama



They lose. You even chose Edo Madara of all people.

Now we have Perfect Susano'o with 113+megaton slashes with Wooden Buddha wielding the exact same firepower with *each damn hand*, pounding away at the poor suckers who were already exhausted battling the Jinchuriki prior. Not to mention two Wooden Dragons, two Flower Worlds - the pollen of which is deadly, and regenerating abilities.

They stop here. Period.



> *Round 5:*
> Survive against Lv2 Datara for 5 minutes



For hypersonic characters, 5 minutes is an awfully long time.


----------



## Trojan (May 1, 2013)

^

So Naruto will defeat the first 3 in round one then he will defeat 10 Kage in round 2 in 8m? 
LOL, seriously how do people think here?

Even Madara who is stronger than Naruto would have been dead long time ago
had he not been an edo, against the 5 Kage alone. Not even 10 lol.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 1, 2013)

Yo Munboy.  You stealin' mah set?

Without even credit?  I'm glad everyone loves it, and you made a fun edit, but I haven't even gotten to wear it myself yet. -_-


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## Shattering (May 1, 2013)

I can see them beating round 2  and round 3 without problems, r5 is a mistery since we don't know how would the JUUBI react but Nagato's rinnegan should be able to handle his JUUBI Damas and Naruto's "Bird Mode" was able to cut the JUUBI's body so they should be able to beat him too if nothing goes really wrong.

But then we have r1 and r4...

*ROUND 1: *Itachi can one-shot them if Totsuka makes contact, probably even amaterasu could do it with  time since it would burn their chakra cloack but of course both Nagato and Naruto can do the same and one-shot them if their most powerful attacks make contact.

I will give Itachi/Minato/Kabuto the edge here because with Itachi's skills throwing kunais and Minato teleporting the team to them like he did with Hiruzen a couple of chapters ago they should be able to avoid all the attacks, if an attack is super big and they can't get far enought I'm pretty sure Kabuto has some SM techniques to protect them and of course stage 4 Susano'o and his Yata Mirror.

At the end everything could be decided by a single teleport+totsuka combo or Kabuto could throw his "paralyze" jutsu and then Minato+Itachi appear in front of them and one-panel them.

*ROUND 4:* I think there's nothing to discuss here, Madara has seen BM Naruto, Bird Mode Naruto, chakra cloacks for a whole army and stuff, yet he didn't give a darn, not a single glimpse of excitement.

Then Hashirama appears and well he got an orgasm thinking about their upcoming battle...

EDO Madara would handle them alone, 100% sure, if you add Hashirama this is overstomp, 3-4 wood monsters and I think Naruto+Nagato are pretty much defeated


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - but do they have time? because he can attack directly as I said.
> Path
> Path
> 
> ...



You used a non sensor when I mentioned sensors. Furthermore Naruto's enhances reflexes will give him the ability to react to that; Nagato can just spawn ST/Demon Path extensions at will the moment Minato appears- but this sensing can be complimented by shared vision.


----------



## Joakim3 (May 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - How so? ~~
> - So all his fight against Obito and Madara he didn'y see that necessary?
> and if he transform to Kurama that will be easier to seal!



He used it to intercept 5 Bijudama, he offensively used it to attack Edo Madara, and again used it to save Kakashi from Madara via BM clone. Thats 3 times

Naruto doesn't even need to use BM mode this match, thats what we have Nagato's nukes for, both of which are one shots 



TorJaN said:


> and who will stop him? Naruto is not able to hit Obito who's slower than Minato
> how he suppose to hit his father?
> 
> Yeah, I do think so + Minato can always set up a berries if he want some time!



Please explain what barrier is going to do against  or  or this? 

and please don't say S/T redirection as the former can't be reacted to while the he doesn't have the chakra capacity to wrap the laters  



TorJaN said:


> he can make a barrier as I said above
> this
> 
> and making a lot of clones will make him weaker + the OP said they will try to not
> waste their chakra.



Which do nothing when both Nagato & Naruto can individually sterilize everything within a 10km radius

Nagato & Naruto have so much chakra they can afford to spam clones & nukes, and nuking is actually more chakra conservative since they *aren't* dragging out a fight with 3 hax kage levels



TorJaN said:


> Zero?
> 1- Minato is faster than Naruto
> 2- he can set up a barrier to NOT let anyone go out
> 3- he can use it against Nagato not necessarily Naruto.



1) Minato is faster only when he has tags...... which will be destroyed, he is not out shunshining BM/RM Naruto or hell even Nagato 
2) Because his barrier has to feats to survive any of the ridiculous offensive attacks Nagato & Naruto can dish out..... repeated times
3) Because Nagato wont have knowledge either and would be camping in an invisible Chameleon while his _Pein Rikudo_ are wrecking



TorJaN said:


> Also, Kabuto is there he can give the ground life and made it move to Minato's side
> so he can get them!
> 
> Lolololololol



Which means nothing when Nagato can fly both himself and Naruto via a bird summons, and simply nuke from outside of range 



TorJaN said:


> that's if there is anything to hit him, had it been so, Naruto would have killed Obito long time
> ago. Even the Huge attacks like TBB it can be redirect by S/T barrier.
> 
> These S/T jutsus are broken, I'm amazed some people don't see that yet.



Naruto couldn't kill Obito becuase his S/T is *superior* when it comes to defensive capabilities then Minato's. Minato can't turn intangible when a 20km _Bijudama_ is exploding, he has to wrap to a new tag (all of which would be obliterated in the explosion)

Which is why Nagato just nukes him with _Shinra Tensei_ instead.... which Minato can't S/T, and _Renzuki Bijudama_ circumnavigates S/T so even thats false

If you haven't noticed, Kishi's kinda piledrived the idea, that without being able to nuke a country... your not a top tier  



TorJaN said:


> Oh please give it a rest, you are talking as if they will wait for them and they will remain in their
> places! All the 3 (Minato, Itachi & Kabuto) are MUCH more intelligent than Naruto & Nagato.



Seeing your the only who actually believes the current war soloing Naruto, and the city soloing Nagato are actually going to loose, you should be the last one talking about "give it a rest" 

Which does nothing when your opposing team beats you in every category save for intelligence.... and even thats not accurate as both Naruto & Nagato are both intellectual enough to use the powers to virtually max efficiency, on top of Kurama who's had centuries of battle experience  



TorJaN said:


> Raw power is not everything! if there is team who will start with strategy they are not Naruto
> and Nagato, that for sure.



 I'm not going to feed oil to the fire


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 1, 2013)

How amusing. 

Naruto does not need BM until Edo Madara and Hashirama.

KCM Naruto can handle the 6 Bijuu especially with Nagato of all people around.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> ^So Naruto will defeat the first 3 in round one then he will defeat 10 Kage in round 2 in 8m?



Um, yes. No one in both rounds can begin to deal with a single Bijudama bar Minato, much less a continuous version of it. Even less can deal with a 2.2 Megaton shockwave that Naruto can casually roar with near-zero repercussions to his chakra amount. Perhaps Itachi can block the roar with Yata Mirror, but refer to point one: he can't do jack against Bijudama.

Nagato isn't even needed in both rounds.



> LOL, seriously how do people think here?



Logically. Sorry we can't see eye to eye, but the difference between us is that you tend to replace reasoning and proper rebuttal with incredulity and disbelief as if it makes your uninformed notions any less nonsensical.



> Even Madara who is stronger than Naruto would have been dead long time ago
> had he not been an edo, against the 5 Kage alone. Not even 10 lol.



Did it ever occur to you that the 5 Kage might have lasted so long against Madara because the latter never bothered to take the fight seriously, until he pulled out Perfect Susano'o - which is the only reason anybody would even consider placing him above the likes of BM Naruto?

No, I suspect it didn't. Hardly surprised, though.



Shattering said:


> I can see them beating round 2  and round 3 without problems, r5 is a mistery since we don't know how would the JUUBI react but Nagato's rinnegan should be able to handle his JUUBI Damas and Naruto's "Bird Mode" was able to cut the JUUBI's body so they should be able to beat him too if nothing goes really wrong.



Nope, Nagato's never handled anything on the sheer scale of Juubi's Bijudama - that's a no-limits fallacy. BM Naruto's enhanced Rasenshuriken should be plenty useful against the thing.

Unfortunately, I wonder what's faster: BM Naruto charging directly in the face of Juubi or the latter charging and firing a blast that pulverizes both in an instant.



> *ROUND 1: *Itachi can one-shot them if Totsuka makes contact, probably even amaterasu could do it with  time since it would burn their chakra cloack but of course both Nagato and Naruto can do the same and one-shot them if their most powerful attacks make contact.



Totsuka has never pierced anything remotely as durable as BM Naruto. Spiritual weapon it may be, that does not denote capability to pierce everything and anything; we have to use its best feats. In which case, would be piercing Nagato/slicing the Hydra heads off.

Both feats of which are infinitesimal when we're talking about a character who tanked V1 Juubi's laser.



> I will give Itachi/Minato/Kabuto the edge here because with Itachi's skills throwing kunais and Minato teleporting the team to them like he did with Hiruzen a couple of chapters ago they should be able to avoid all the attacks, if an attack is super big and they can't get far enought I'm pretty sure Kabuto has some SM techniques to protect them and of course stage 4 Susano'o and his Yata Mirror.



Avoid all attacks? How exactly can they avoid a shockwave, especially if we give Hirashin the benefit of the doubt of being instantaneous? They'd just wound up teleporting directly into the shockwave's aftermath (killing Minato no doubt, given his trash durability). 

This is also disregarding Continuous Bijudama, something none of the Round 1 opposition can comprehend contending with.



> At the end everything could be decided by a single teleport+totsuka combo or Kabuto could throw his "paralyze" jutsu and then Minato+Itachi appear in front of them and one-panel them



This makes no sense.



Jak N Blak said:


> KCM Naruto can handle the 6 Bijuu especially with Nagato of all people around.



Mind explaining what KCM Naruto can do to take down a Bijuu, let alone six?


----------



## ueharakk (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Mind explaining what KCM Naruto can do to take down a Bijuu, let alone six?



Kurama by far the strongest of the bijuu was canonically incapacitated by just one FRS, KCM Naruto spams clones that spam guided FRS....


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Mind explaining what KCM Naruto can do to take down a Bijuu, let alone six?



Isn't he falling from gravity with his sword stretched out

+

Isn't he falling from gravity with his sword stretched out


----------



## KyuubiFan (May 2, 2013)

They stop at R4. Hashirama or the current Madara alone stomps both of them, let alone together.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kurama by far the strongest of the bijuu was canonically incapacitated by just one FRS, KCM Naruto spams clones that spam guided FRS....



Incapacitated? Sure, the technique was painful, but after it dissipated we see no visible damage whatsoever on the Kyuubi. Heck, it seemed like it just singed its fur. He was weakened somewhat, but to a significant extent? Not likely.

Not to mention 'hurting Kyuubi' doesn't denote defeating entities capable of surviving Bijuu Bombs, which, if I'd remind you, are literally thousands of times stronger than FRS. Not seeing how even its potent manner of inflicting damage can overcome such a gap.


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## ueharakk (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Incapacitated? Sure, the technique was painful, but after it dissipated we see no visible damage whatsoever on the Kyuubi. Heck, it seemed like it just singed its fur. He was weakened somewhat, but to a significant extent? Not likely.



Kurama was weakened so much by the technique that he couldn't even stand, and he continued to lay down on his hairy arse for an entire chapter until Kushina's chains came out.  Also, I think kishi showing kurama's singed fur is his indicator of damage albeit not necessarily serious damage.

and incapacitation doesn't necessarily mean heavy damage.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Not to mention 'hurting Kyuubi' doesn't denote defeating entities capable of surviving Bijuu Bombs, which, if I'd remind you, are literally thousands of times stronger than FRS. Not seeing how even its potent manner of inflicting damage can overcome such a gap.


Hachibi, the second strongest was heavily damaged by a substandard bijuudama.  None of the lower bijuu are going to survive multiple bijuudamas.  

And it's not really about FRS heavily damaging them when it hits them, it's about its incapacitating affect.  If the bijuus come out of a hit like Kurama did, they won't even be able to stand for a good amount of time all the while KCM Naruto's clones are free to just send more FRS into those helpless bijuu.

And FRS isn't that far off from the power of a bijuudama.  Sure the AoE of the wind sphere is way smaller than the blast radius of a bijuudama, however the wind sphere's power is far more concentrated than the majority of the bijuudama's huge radius.  If you want to compare raw explosions, the one time we see FRS not explode into a wind sphere, but simply blow up  The explosion envelopes multiple mountains.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kurama was weakened so much by the technique that he couldn't even stand, and he continued to lay down on his hairy arse for an entire chapter until Kushina's chains came out.  Also, I think kishi showing kurama's singed fur is his indicator of damage albeit not necessarily serious damage.



We have no idea how much time passed while Naruto was conversing with Kushina; they were on different planes/dimensions, unless you'd argue Kyuubi was just sitting there calmly watching Naruto until Kushina's chains emerged. 



> and incapacitation doesn't necessarily mean heavy damage.



Incapacitation means unable to fight. Kyuubi was weakened for a brief moment. Don't kid yourself thinking he was actually taken out.



> Hachibi, the second strongest was heavily damaged by a substandard bijuudama.  None of the lower bijuu are going to survive multiple bijuudamas.



There is no such ranking of Bijuu. Hachibi flat-out refuted it as such. All Bijuu are equal bar Kurama. And that's not my point. Standard Bijuu can survive at least one.

That, in my opinion, gives a single Bijuu capability to survive multiple FRS.


> And it's not really about FRS heavily damaging them when it hits them, it's about its incapacitating affect.  If the bijuus come out of a hit like Kurama did, they won't even be able to stand for a good amount of time all the while KCM Naruto's clones are free to just send more FRS into those helpless bijuu.



To lead to what? We saw minimal damage from FRS to Kurama. It stunned the beast at best. How exactly can you translate that less-than-impressive effect to actually killing a Bijuu? The magnitudes of attack between the FRS and a Bijudama are tremendous, I assure you.



> And FRS isn't that far off from the power of a bijuudama.  Sure the AoE of the wind sphere is way smaller than the blast radius of a bijuudama, however the wind sphere's power is far more concentrated than the majority of the bijuudama's huge radius.  If you want to compare raw explosions, the one time we see FRS not explode into a wind sphere, but simply blow up  The explosion envelopes multiple mountains.



We have calcs for that you know. 665 kiloton FRS to 4 gigaton Bijudama, the latter is stronger by a factor of 6000.


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## Scarlet Ammo (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> We have calcs for that you know. 665 kiloton FRS to 4 gigaton Bijudama, the latter is stronger by a factor of 6000.




Where exactly did you get those numbers?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2013)

Rainbow Cake said:


> Where exactly did you get those numbers?



Check the OBD, it's where all calcs come from.


----------



## Ezekial (May 2, 2013)

*Round 1:*
Edo Itachi, Minato & SM Kabuto (Edo Tensei Ristricted)

This seems more difficult then round 2, but they win this high diff, having 3 geniuses on one time could be two much but one chibaku tensei could also be enough to beat Itachi and Kabuto (Kabuto has no attack to destroy the core) then they team up and beat Minato fairly easy.

*Round 2:*
Gokage, Raikagenaut, Mu, Trollkage & Raikagenaut

9 Kage vs 2 may seem ridiculous but none of the Kage (above) can deal with Naruto's speed bar Raikage's but he has enough power to deal with them two together, Nagato is basically a weakened Madara, so again he beats them, it depends on who can survive a bm blitzed and full power CST

*Round 3:*
Jinchurki 1-8 (all are now perfect Jins)

Again round one seems harder, the Jin are actually easier then all, if Naruto Kakashi, Bee and Gai can fight 6 You can bet Naruto and Nagato can win... mid diff

*Round 4:*
Edo Madara & Hashirama

Team Uzumaki lose, Hashirama can suppress Naruto, Madara can destroy CT, his PS can probably resist ST but Nagato can supress Mokuton and Naruto is faster then both, I can't  see them wining with PS and Buudha against them, Madz and Hashi are Megazord fighters, Madara n Hashi win easily

*Round 5:*
Survive against Lv2 Datara for 5 minutes

Madara stomps


----------



## ueharakk (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> We have no idea how much time passed while Naruto was conversing with Kushina; they were on different planes/dimensions, *unless you'd argue Kyuubi was just sitting there calmly watching Naruto until Kushina's chains emerged.*


that's kind of what I am implying since we know he couldn't stand up and I think that is what was implied.  




ATastyMuffin said:


> Incapacitation means unable to fight. Kyuubi was weakened for a brief moment. Don't kid yourself thinking he was actually taken out.


I said he was incapacitated for a while.... which he was.  He was unable to even stand up... and for a while.  




ATastyMuffin said:


> There is no such ranking of Bijuu. Hachibi flat-out refuted it as such. All Bijuu are equal bar Kurama. And that's not my point. Standard Bijuu can survive at least one.



Hachibi refuted it with words but Kurama established it with actions.  And yes if you read my post, I said they can't survive multiple bijuudamas.  i'm willing to give all of the bijuus even ichibi hachibi's durability feat against the bijuudama, what I can't do is give them more.



ATastyMuffin said:


> That, in my opinion, gives a single Bijuu capability to survive multiple FRS.


Survive multiple sure, but the difference is that after just one, they will be on the ground incapable of fighting for a while unless they have durability greater than Kurama.  From there, they just get weaker and weaker as they get hammered by FRS after FRS.



ATastyMuffin said:


> To lead to what? We saw minimal damage from FRS to Kurama. It stunned the beast at best. How exactly can you translate that less-than-impressive effect to actually killing a Bijuu? *The magnitudes of attack between the FRS and a Bijudama are tremendous, I assure you.*


that was Kurama though who is far stronger than any of the other bijuu in every department.  While the hachibi's tails get cut by Kunais stabs and chidori eiso, Kurama's can grab SM COR with zero damage.

And FRS didn't stun kurama, it incapacitated him for some time, he was unable to even stand or fight after he was hit with it.  Stunning would be what SM COR did to Kurama.




ATastyMuffin said:


> We have calcs for that you know. 665 kiloton FRS to 4 gigaton Bijudama, the latter is stronger by a factor of 6000.


And those same OBD calcs give this attack a whopping 20 kilotons energy yield.

the wind sphere of FRS is much smaller than that, thus if FRS's smaller wind sphere is calced at 665 KT while oonoki and muu's jinton is calced at 20 KT, then FRS is much much more damaging than jinton as it has a far greater energy yield confined to a much smaller AoE.  

thus the bijuus would have to be able to shrug off jinton like nothing in order to sustain Kurama level damage from FRS.


So yeah OBD calcs are not good for in-verse measurements as they ignore 2 things: damage density and attack mechanics.  By OBD calcs, KN4's chakra roar is 14 times stronger than a base FRS yet obviously KN4 isn't going to solo sandaime raikage with a chakra roar.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's kind of what I am implying since we know he couldn't stand up and I think that is what was implied.



Even then, that doesn't hold up. Kyuubi could still very clearly focus its chakra/hatred when Naruto was attempting to pull out its chakra, so why couldn't it just focus a Bijudama or roar to incapacitate him for good? 

Even if your case was true, both planes could very well function on different speeds of time. 



> I said he was incapacitated for a while.... which he was.  He was unable to even stand up... and for a while.



Read above.



> Hachibi refuted it with words *but Kurama established it with actions*.  And yes if you read my post, I said they can't survive multiple bijuudamas.  i'm willing to give all of the bijuus even ichibi hachibi's durability feat against the bijuudama, what I can't do is give them more.



I just stated that. Doesn't say anything else about the rest of the Bijuu. Kurama was marked as the strongest by far eons ago in the manga. I never said they could survive 'multiple' Bijuudamas, so what on earth was the point of bringing that up?

Good, now that you've conceded that, we can move on.



> Survive multiple sure, but the difference is that after just one, they will be on the ground incapable of fighting for a while unless they have durability greater than Kurama.  From there, they just get weaker and weaker as they get hammered by FRS after FRS.



With minimal damage done? I'm not exactly sure how many FRS Naruto can pull out. Remember, there are six Bijuu. RM Naruto has demonstrated to split his chakra into thirteen parts, at best, with clone having the chakra capacity to wield one FRS. 13 or a bit more FRS is going to take out six Bijuu? Really? They can be 'incapacitated' multiple times, but unless said FRS is going to inflict notable damage, it's not going to do shit.

Not to mention those Bijuu will be on the offensive as well.



> that was Kurama though who is far stronger than any of the other bijuu in every department.  While the hachibi's tails get cut by Kunais stabs and chidori eiso, Kurama's can grab SM COR with zero damage.



No, the 4-gigaton Bijudama was calculated using a standard version from a regular Bijuu; the ones that were detonated in every direction when BM Naruto knocked them away dozens of kilometres.

Hachibi's tails are much less durable than the actual body, you know.



> And those same OBD calcs give this attack a whopping 20 kilotons energy yield.



And? Have anything to refute that? Given Jinton's method of atomization, which requires HUGE yields, I'm not at all surprised the final attack resulted in something as powerful as that.



> thus the bijuus would have to be able to shrug off jinton like nothing in order to sustain Kurama level damage from FRS.



Um, yes. This refutes anything how?



> So yeah OBD calcs are not good for in-verse measurements as they ignore 2 things: damage density and attack mechanics.  By OBD calcs, KN4's chakra roar is 14 times stronger than a base FRS yet obviously KN4 isn't going to solo sandaime raikage with a chakra roar.



We know FRS's actual damage output is beyond 665 kilotons; that's just the DC. We have to account for its method of damage, which is beyond just a regular explosion.

But enough to outweigh an attack literally thousands of times more powerful? That is just ridiculously stretching it. Your KN4's chakra roar example is absolutely terrible because a base FRS wouldn't be soloing the Sandaime Raikage to begin with. Oh, and please don't tell me that KCM Naruto's FRS is only as powerful as the one in base, it's likely enhanced with Kyuubi chakra.

Not to mention Sandaime Raikage would by default have at least 15 KT of durability given that Choza managed to tank KK6's tail swipe (15 KT), and Sandaime is far more durable than he is.


----------



## ueharakk (May 2, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Even then, that doesn't hold up. Kyuubi could still very clearly focus its chakra/hatred when Naruto was attempting to pull out its chakra, so why couldn't it just focus a Bijudama or roar to incapacitate him for good?



because his head was on the opposite side of Naruto so he might have not been able to fire one accurately with those relative positions?  



ATastyMuffin said:


> Even if your case was true, both planes could very well function on different speeds of time.


True, however we see that they are functioning at pretty much the same time as Yamato and Bee are giving commentary on Naruto being taken over by kurama and then the transformation stopping.




ATastyMuffin said:


> I just stated that. Doesn't say anything else about the rest of the Bijuu. Kurama was marked as the strongest by far eons ago in the manga.* I never said they could survive 'multiple' Bijuudamas, so what on earth was the point of bringing that up?*



If Hachibi says tails don't matter, but Kurama is far stronger than the other bijuu, then that falsifies the Hachibi's statement that number of tails don't matter....  thus number of tails do in fact matter in determining a bijuu's strength.  This is apparent even by feats as the Hachibi was fighting two of his brethren at the same time and winning.

I think we see eye to eye on the bolded.




ATastyMuffin said:


> With minimal damage done? I'm not exactly sure how many FRS Naruto can pull out. Remember, there are six Bijuu. RM Naruto has demonstrated to split his chakra into thirteen parts, at best, with clone having the chakra capacity to wield one FRS. 13 or a bit more FRS is going to take out six Bijuu? Really? They can be 'incapacitated' multiple times, but unless said FRS is going to inflict notable damage, it's not going to do shit.




1) it wouldn't be minimal damage unless the bijuu's name is Kurama.  Bee has been shown to be far less durable than Kurama, and thus a FRS would do decent damage to each.

2) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



KCM Naruto naruto after spamming his chakra cloak for 12 hours straight split his chakra into 13.  After that, he spammed KCM for a couple of hours or so getting drained at 13 times the normal rate.  Then when he arrived at the battlefield, one of his clones used a rasengan planet, FRS and most importantly had enough chakra to create a bijuurasengan.  The bijuurasengan has incomparably more chakra than a FRS as not only is it packed with so much chakra, Naruto can barely hold it up in KCM, but its hyped as being on another level than a FRS yet it doesn't have the elemental nature manipulation of FRS, so its power has to come from sheer chakra quantity.  So taking all those things into account, any one of his clones can spam FRS without worrying about losing the chakra cloak especially since Naruto is coming into the battle fresh.






ATastyMuffin said:


> Not to mention those Bijuu will be on the offensive as well.


which will be extremely difficult for them to tag a clone with V1 Ei speed while fighting more than one clone at a time....




ATastyMuffin said:


> No, the 4-gigaton Bijudama was calculated using a standard version from a regular Bijuu; the ones that were detonated in every direction when BM Naruto knocked them away dozens of kilometres.



I wasn't talking about bijuudama strength, I was talking about durability of the bijuus or their strength speed reactions agility etc.  Kurama is on another level than all the other bijuus in this area which is why when the other bijuu get hit by FRS they take significant damage from it.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Hachibi's tails are much less durable than the actual body, you know.


and that logic would apply to all bijuus even the juubi as well, which is why I brought up kurama's tails to make that comparison. 




ATastyMuffin said:


> And? Have anything to refute that? Given Jinton's method of atomization, which requires HUGE yields, I'm not at all surprised the final attack resulted in something as powerful as that
> 
> Um, yes. This refutes anything how?



So you are seriously saying that if oonoki and muu both fired jinton lasers at any one of the bijuus, that bijuu would take almost no damage from the attack?




ATastyMuffin said:


> We know FRS's actual damage output is beyond 665 kilotons; that's just the DC. We have to account for its method of damage, which is beyond just a regular explosion.
> 
> But enough to outweigh an attack literally thousands of times more powerful? That is just ridiculously stretching it.



It all depends.  If FRS focuses all of its power into a much smaller AoE, then it could be more damage dense than mosst of the bijuudama's blast radius, and thus it could very well close the gap a lot.  That's the whole reason why the shinobi alliance can survive madara and obito's katons.  If madara or obito could focus the power of their entire katon onto a single shinobi, there's no way in hell the KN1 cloak is going to protect them from that.  However unfortunately for them the power of their katons are spread out across their AoE and thus shinobi are able to survive it.

Now I'm not saying that FRS is more powerful than a bijuudama, but like dust release its an extremely concentrated attack and thus can compete or close the gap on attacks that have way more power.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Your KN4's chakra roar example is absolutely terrible because a base FRS wouldn't be soloing the Sandaime Raikage to begin with. Oh, and please don't tell me that KCM Naruto's FRS is only as powerful as the one in base, it's likely enhanced with Kyuubi chakra.


Tasty Muffin, cmon now.  Did I say that ONE base FRS will be soloing Sandaime raikage?  In my post that you quoted, how many base FRS did I say a KN4 chakra roar is equal to?  The answer is 14.  You think Sandaime raikage is going to survive 14 base FRS?  

And to answer the last part, yes KCM FRS is definitely enhanced by kyuubi chakra.  In fact, Naruto can only use the completed form of FRS with either KCM or SM, and we know that all of his attacks in KCM are massively enhanced by the mode which is why muu took so long to recover.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Not to mention Sandaime Raikage would by default have at least 15 KT of durability given that Choza managed to tank KK6's tail swipe (15 KT), and Sandaime is far more durable than he is.


That's even worse since by OBD calcs, a base FRS is what? 1.4 KTs?  that means Chouza can tank 10 base FRS with less difficulty than a KN6 tailswipe?  cmon now.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> because his head was on the opposite side of Naruto so he might have not been able to fire one accurately with those relative positions?



I don't think Kurama would care so much about that. After all, he's often fine with fire Bijudama point-blank; he practically did so at the beginning of the fight. 



> If Hachibi says tails don't matter, but Kurama is far stronger than the other bijuu, then that falsifies the Hachibi's statement that number of tails don't matter....  thus number of tails do in fact matter in determining a bijuu's strength.  This is apparent even by feats as the Hachibi was fighting two of his brethren at the same time and winning.



That's exclusive to Kurama. We've seen from the beginning, feat-wise and hype-wise, that the fox vastly outweighed his brethren considerably. The other Bijuu relative to one another? Not so much, because a) Each had similar speed (charging towards Kakashi/Gai) b) Each had similar strength (Kokuo/Son Goku) and c) Each had a Bijudama radius that equalled one another in power.

Basically Kurama's feats are on entirely another level, while everything we've seen from the other Bijuu don't differentiate much, if at all from one another. Even your Hachibi example doesn't hold up because he was getting his shit kicked in by Five-Tails and Four-Tails (more the latter than the former).

Only reason he ever got the upper hand on Sanbi was because the turtle was focusing on Kurama. 



> 1) it wouldn't be minimal damage unless the bijuu's name is Kurama.  Bee has been shown to be far less durable than Kurama, and thus a FRS would do decent damage to each.



Yes. Enough to kill them, even from multiple iterations, given Bee's own tanking of a BD? Not seeing that happen, unfortunately.




> KCM Naruto naruto after spamming his chakra cloak for 12 hours straight split his chakra into 13.  After that, he spammed KCM for a couple of hours or so getting drained at 13 times the normal rate.  Then when he arrived at the battlefield, one of his clones used a rasengan planet, FRS and most importantly had enough chakra to create a bijuurasengan.  The bijuurasengan has incomparably more chakra than a FRS as not only is it packed with so much chakra, Naruto can barely hold it up in KCM, but its hyped as being on another level than a FRS yet it doesn't have the elemental nature manipulation of FRS, so its power has to come from sheer chakra quantity.  So taking all those things into account, any one of his clones can spam FRS without worrying about losing the chakra cloak especially since Naruto is coming into the battle fresh.



Who knows how much more chakra a half-finished Biju-Rasengan takes in comparison to FRS? We're getting into extremely murky territory here.



> which will be extremely difficult for them to tag a clone with V1 Ei speed while fighting more than one clone at a time....



That doesn't matter. The blast radius of a single BD can wipe out all of them, and as seen from the demonstration against Kakashi/Gai, the Bijuu have no qualms or durability issues about being caught in its AOE.



> I wasn't talking about bijuudama strength, I was talking about durability of the bijuus or their strength speed reactions agility etc.  Kurama is on another level than all the other bijuus in this area which is why when the other bijuu get hit by FRS they take significant damage from it.



I know. Just saying that using Hachibi's tails as a method of comparison isn't exactly the smartest move.

I know the Bijuu will take damage from it. That's a given. Significant? That's another story.



> and that logic would apply to all bijuus even the juubi as well, which is why I brought up kurama's tails to make that comparison.



So... you were just trying to emphasize Kurama >> other Bijuu? Dude, I *know* that.



> So you are seriously saying that if oonoki and muu both fired jinton lasers at any one of the bijuus, that bijuu would take almost no damage from the attack?



Small-scale ones? Why not? 



> It all depends.  If FRS focuses all of its power into a much smaller AoE, then it could be more damage dense than mosst of the bijuudama's blast radius, and thus it could very well close the gap a lot.  That's the whole reason why the shinobi alliance can survive madara and obito's katons.



It's all about how an object takes energy. If something takes a Bijudama head-on before it detonates; it's receiving about 50% of that energy. Hachibi took his own directly; we're granting him 2-gigaton durability on that basis.

FRS is focused to begin with; it's a focused energy-cutting sphere. The problem is, I'm just not seeing compelling evidence in having it kill entities that can survive something so much stronger.



> Now I'm not saying that FRS is more powerful than a bijuudama, but like dust release its an extremely concentrated attack and thus can compete or close the gap on attacks that have way more power.



Unfortunately, you'll have to prove that. 

I think we're reaching an impasse here. You believe multiple FRS can close the gap that Bijudama leaves behind with sheer destructive capability, while I don't. Agree to disagree?



> Tasty Muffin, cmon now.  Did I say that ONE base FRS will be soloing Sandaime raikage?  In my post that you quoted, how many base FRS did I say a KN4 chakra roar is equal to?  The answer is 14.  You think Sandaime raikage is going to survive 14 base FRS?



1) You're asking this incredulously, as if there's some logic that negates such a notion.
2) You're forgetting that an FRS has, by your own admission, concentrated cutting power to begin with.



> That's even worse since by OBD calcs, a base FRS is what? 1.4 KTs?  that means Chouza can tank 10 base FRS with less difficulty than a KN6 tailswipe?  cmon now.



Read above.


----------



## ueharakk (May 3, 2013)

Before I even respond to the majority of your arguments, we have to at least get this out of the way because the OBD energy yields are your basis for giving the bijuu durability feats, but I think that they are falsified by the manga.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Small-scale ones? Why not?


no, it's not small scaled ones, its the one that they used *here.  *In order to be consistent with OBD calcs, you would logically have to say that that particular blast would do almost no damage to a bijuu since a SM FRS is 30 times stronger and has a much smaller AoE, yet wouldn't even do decent damage to a bijuu and multiple shots wouldn't put them down.




ATastyMuffin said:


> It's all about how an object takes energy. If something takes a Bijudama head-on before it detonates; it's receiving about 50% of that energy. Hachibi took his own directly; we're granting him 2-gigaton durability on that basis.
> 
> FRS is focused to begin with; it's a focused energy-cutting sphere. The problem is, I'm just not seeing compelling evidence in having it kill entities that can survive something so much stronger.


I agree that 50% of the bijuudamas energy hits gets absorbed by the target if it hits them directly.  

And I'm not saying that the bijuu can't survive FRS, I'm saying that they can't survive successive hits based on the damage it did to Kurama.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Unfortunately, you'll have to prove that.



no i don't I don't have a burden to prove anything and neither do you since we can't prove almost anything that we use to formulate our arguments if we are talking about a subjective manga with limited feats and information.  I have a burden of proof to simply try and show that my argument is the stronger of the two, and that it caters to less assumptions than yours does or is more supported than yours.



ATastyMuffin said:


> I think we're reaching an impasse here. You believe multiple FRS can close the gap that Bijudama leaves behind with sheer destructive capability, while I don't. Agree to disagree?


I'll agree to disagree on this point for now because I think that our argument about dust release is the same thing so we'll debate it out there.




ATastyMuffin said:


> 1) You're asking this incredulously, as if there's some logic that negates such a notion.
> *2) You're forgetting that an FRS has, by your own admission, concentrated cutting power to begin with.*


You're going to have to explain to me what you mean for your first point.  My diction isn't all that great.

2) I said that FRS's power is spread across its AoE.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Read above.


The Chouza stopped the tail swipe, that means his side took a force equivalent to 14 KT = 10 base FRS on whatever part of his body the tail made contact.  Do you think chouza can take 10 FRS or even one base FRS to that part of his body and live?

In addition to that, there's things like naruto's oodama rasengan being 10x stronger than his base FRS:

Naruto Oodama Rasengan: 11.89 Kt
Base Naruto FRS: 764.81 Tn - 1.37 Kt

do you think that that's canon?  that naruto would have to shove 10 base FRS into a target in order to do the same damage that 1 oodama rasengan does?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Before I even respond to the majority of your arguments, we have to at least get this out of the way because the OBD energy yields are your basis for giving the bijuu durability feats, but I think that they are falsified by the manga.



Alright.




> no, it's not small scaled ones, its the one that they used *here.  *In order to be consistent with OBD calcs, you would logically have to say that that particular blast would do almost no damage to a bijuu since a SM FRS is 30 times stronger and has a much smaller AoE, yet wouldn't even do decent damage to a bijuu and multiple shots wouldn't put them down.



AOE almost never has to do with anything. It's all about how much energy a certain attack expends. Naruto's Base FRS has less AOE than Temari's freakin' Fuuton: Kazekiri, yet it's exponentially more powerful.

And even then, you're forgetting a SM FRS isn't calc'ed off its usual 50-or-so metre radius, it's measured using the infamous panel wherein It detonated inside the Chibaku Tensei crater. That was much bigger than any of Onoki's Jinton thus far, no?



> I agree that 50% of the bijuudamas energy hits gets absorbed by the target if it hits them directly.
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