# Nagato vs. Valley of the End Madara?!



## Shinobi1jutsu (Feb 6, 2019)

.

Nagato Uzumaki vs. Madara Uchiha

Who would win a fight between a rejuvenated healthy Nagato vs. Madara when he fought (and lost) against Hashirama in the Valley of the end? 

Both have knowledge of each other, and their various abilities. 

Location: Valley of the End


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara can just play defense and Nagato kills himself using the Rinnegan to its limit.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara Summons Kurama and they ghtetostomp Nagato


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara beats Nagato once he uses PS or he can set Kurama to deal with Nagato and kill him.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 6, 2019)

Kai said:


> Madara can just play defense and Nagato kills himself using the Rinnegan to its limit.



What are these fabricated limits outside the side effect of synchronising with the Gedo Mazo?


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What are these fabricated limits outside the side effect of synchronising with the Gedo Mazo?


You saw Nagato placing himself at death's door when pulling his big guns using Pain.

Naruto stated Nagato was stronger and faster than Pain. Obviously Nagato will suffer more physical blow back than when using Pain as well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 6, 2019)

Kai said:


> You saw Nagato placing himself at death's door when pulling his big guns using Pain.
> 
> Naruto stated Nagato was stronger and faster than Pain. Thus, obviously Nagato will suffer more physical blow back than Pain as well.



You have confused chakra exhaustion for "Rinnegan effects".


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You have confused chakra exhaustion for "Rinnegan effects".


Chakra exhaustion doesn't cause Nagato's symptoms in internal bleeding and shortening lifespan. Nagato was pushing a borrowed Rinnegan to its absolute limit and the repercussions are like what MS users experience but on a higher extremity.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 6, 2019)

Kai said:


> Chakra exhaustion doesn't cause Nagato's symptoms in internal bleeding and shortening lifespan. Nagato was pushing a borrowed Rinnegan to its absolute limit and the repercussions are like what MS users experience but on a higher extremity.



Those are the exact symptoms he would get if he was using very chakra taxing jutsu in a chakra deprived state. Nagato used a lot of chakra to synchronise with the Gedo Mazo, hence he was reduced to his emaciated state. So using costly jutsu such as controlling Pain, using strong jutsu with Deva would obviously effect him. In fact, using Rinne Tensei caused him to have his white hair. Reabsorbing the chakra restored his body back to the pre-synchronisation stage. *It was all chakra exhaustion.* 

The borrowed Rinnegan factor didn't seem to apply with Nagato seeing as he had 2 Rinnegan _for years _and never suffered with the issues Obito described he was having with just one. 

Had all this occurred when Nagato wasn't in his chakra deprived/emaciated state, you'd be spot on.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Nagato shit diffs with Bansho Tein to soul rip in seconds


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Those are the exact symptoms he would get if he was using very chakra taxing jutsu in a chakra deprived state. Nagato used a lot of chakra to synchronise with the Gedo Mazo, hence he was reduced to his emaciated state. So using costly jutsu such as controlling Pain, using strong jutsu with Deva would obviously effect him. In fact, using Rinne Tensei caused him to have his white hair. Reabsorbing the chakra restored his body back to the pre-synchronisation stage. *It was all chakra exhaustion.*
> 
> The borrowed Rinnegan factor didn't seem to apply with Nagato seeing as he had 2 Rinnegan _for years _and never suffered with the issues Obito described he was having with just one.


His chakra deprived state and immobility is the reason for Pain in the first place. Having puppet corpse mediums to transfer his chakra *did not stop him* from facing the Rinnegan's repercussions. Chakra exhaustion is out. If Nagato is even stronger and faster than Pain, you can bet he will also be subject to more intense drawbacks.

Furthermore, Nagato stated after Eight Tails Naruto emerged from his Planetary Devastation that he would have to make a bigger one. Does this reveal chakra exhaustion?



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> Had all this occurred when Nagato wasn't in his chakra deprived/emaciated state, you'd be spot on.


It's more like if all this hadn't occurred while Nagato was using Pain, you'd be spot on.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato shit diffs with Bansho Tein to soul rip in seconds


Madara can use Susanoo to counter.

You are also assuming Nagato gets the first move.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Madara can use Susanoo to counter.


How is that gonna counter Bansho Tein?


Esano said:


> You are also assuming Nagato gets the first move.


That's because nothing Madara can do is as quick as Bansho Tein plus anything Madara does is hardcountered by Preta or Deva Path anyway


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 6, 2019)

Kai said:


> His chakra deprived state and immobility is the reason for Pain in the first place. Having puppet corpse mediums to transfer his chakra *did not stop him* from facing the Rinnegan's repercussions. Chakra exhaustion is out. If Nagato is even stronger and faster than Pain, you can bet he will also be subject to more intense drawbacks.
> 
> Furthermore, Nagato stated after Eight Tails Naruto emerged from his Planetary Devastation that he would have to make a bigger one. Does this reveal chakra exhaustion?



The chakra deprived state did not factor into why he chose to use Pain seeing as chakra absorption could remedy that as we saw with him and Kisame. It was the immobility. 
These "repercussions" you cite simply do not exist and they are just the effects of chakra exhaustion hence Kishi made Nagato chakra deprived when using Pain and shortly showed us how a rejuvenated Nagato looks in the War Arc. 

If you actually look at the facts we have, Nagato would actually have _less _drawbacks using the jutsu himself compared to using them through Pain. His jutsu would be faster and stronger as you outline and he wouldn't be expending a lot of chakra controlling Pain and giving the puppet access to Rinnegan jutsu.

The fact Nagato was restored to his pre-Mazo state post-Bee absorption automatically tells you any time he was emaciated, he simply was chakra deprived. Regarding his comment following 8-tailed Naruto breaking through CT, Nagato was a Senju-Uzumaki descendant so that speaks more to his chakra capacity. Even while chakra deprived he could control many bodies and use a lot of chakra... though he could not maintain CT.

Emaciated Nagato = chakra deprived Nagato.



> It's more like if all this hadn't occurred while Nagato was using Pain, you'd be spot on.



Obito confirmed that using Pain requires a considerable amount of chakra, like that ANBU implied. So it still goes to the chakra concept. Your argument can only make sense in a scenario where a healthy Nagato faced the exact same effects that a chakra deprived one did. Why? That eliminates the chakra angle.

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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> How is that gonna counter Bansho Tein?



By digging into the ground, or by being a giant flying death machine flying right into Nagato's face? Nagato is one shot by Susanoo, not even PS. Or whatever Naruto did to counter it.



> That's because nothing Madara can do is as quick as Bansho Tein plus anything Madara does is hardcountered by Preta or Deva Path anyway



Susanoo is pretty damn quick. So is Genjutsu.

Deva can be overpowered. Preta might be useful, but it would have Nagato playing defense not offense. I'm also not sure Preta can absorb Susanoo that easily. Especially PS.

Preta isn't some end all be all, it didnt auto win any of Nagato's fights. It didn't auto win any of Madara's and it didn't auto win any of Sasuke's.


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara fodderstomps, Kurama isnt needed, neither is Perfect Susanoo.

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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Madara fodderstomps, Kurama isnt needed, neither is Perfect Susanoo.


How does EMS Madara defeat Nagato without Perfect Susanoo or Kurama? Or are you just trolling?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> By digging into the ground, or by being a giant flying death machine flying right into Nagato's face? Nagato is one shot by Susanoo, not even PS. Or whatever Naruto did to counter it.



He won't even know he's being hit by BT until he's hit. If you look at all the times a strong BT was used, jutsu which require focus couldn't be used. Susanoo is chakra and Nagato has Preta... think about that.



> Susanoo is pretty damn quick. So is Genjutsu, which pain is susceptible to.



So is absorption and Nagato's reflexes. The Rinnegan should logically provide some resistance for obvious reasons. Itachi chose not to use Genjutsu for a reason.



> Deva can be overpowered. Preta might be useful, but it would have Nagato playing defense not offense. I'm also not sure Preta can absorb Susanoo, but maybe that was shown somewhere.



Deva can't be overpowered, you're citing a Deva Path power which wasn't even at max capacity. Irrelevant when you're trying to apply it to Nagato himself. With Preta alone, Madara was able to pressure Hashirama into stopping Madara from using Preta and then forced him to use a non-chakra jutsu... it is more than useful. Susanoo _is _chakra, so Preta will be able to absorb it. Madara absorbed Jinton and Susanoo at the same time when Oonoki tried to sneak attack him after Tsunade was hit with Yasaka Magatama.



> Preta isn't some end all be all, it Didnt auto win any of Nagato's fights. It didn't auto win any of Madara's and it didn't auto win any of Sasuke's.



Every time Preta is fought, Ninjutsu is not an option. The Gokage went through hell because of that one power, Hashirama had to take alternative measures because of it. 

Madara outright states that with Preta, Ninjutsu isn't an option. He, and Shikaku, both state CQC is best to tackle Madara for that reason. But the manga and databook tell us Demon Realm (and ofc, Deva Path) make CQC impossible. Even getting stabbed by an Outer Path stake is fatal for Madara.

You seem to underestimate a power that Madara himself was willing to die to obtain.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Yeah @MaruUchiha, It is certainly "Extreme founder wank" to think the same thing as everyone in the damn thread has said, and something that pretty much everyone believes.

Apparently believing that PS beats Nagato is wank, ( even though he was cut by Itachi's)  but believing that Madara gets stomped by one Bansho Tenin isn't. Yeah, ok.

I'm not going to debate you if you just constantly dislike and neg everything. It's really not needed. Notice how me and Koko have been debating just fine without the animosity, and how I haven't been negging or disliking your posts even though I disagree with you.


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> How does EMS Madara defeat Nagato without Perfect Susanoo or Kurama? Or are you just trolling?



You're trolling, Madara's V4 Susanoo destroys this clown, Nagato's wanker.

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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> By digging into the ground


Once again proving ydk how Nagato's abilities even work you just don't wanna believe he can beat the founders.. Madara would be pulled out of the the Susanoo, you know, the way Bansho Tein works?


Esano said:


> or by being a giant flying death machine flying right into Nagato's face?


Not how Bansho Tein OR Susanoo works.. Once again Madara would be pulled out of the Susanoo.. Plus it gets Preta Pathed anyway


Esano said:


> Nagato is one shot by Susanoo, not even PS



One shot? Oh my God more bias.. Nagato ate up a blow from v2 B and negged it with Preta Path.. Same thing happens to Susanoo



Esano said:


> Or whatever Naruto did to counter it


You mean Kyuubi chakra arms that EMS Madara doesn't have?


Esano said:


> Susanoo is pretty damn quick.


Which I just got done explaining to you is negged by Bansho Tein



Esano said:


> So is Genjutsu


Huh?? 3 tomoe Sharingan negs genjutsu and you think it's working against Rinnegan?? Rinnegan negs Infinite Tsukuyomi dude, the Nagato downplay is real!


Esano said:


> Deva can be overpowered


By the fucking 9 Tails not base Madara


Esano said:


> Preta might be useful


Might be?? Look dude I'm not about to do this again if you're gonna continue to be extremely bias towards the founders and extremely downplay Nagato


Esano said:


> I'm also not sure Preta can absorb Susanoo that easily. Especially PS.


Why wouldn't it when it absorbed Bijuu chakra extremely fast? Just because it's one of the founders?


Esano said:


> Preta isn't some end all be all, it didnt auto win any of Nagato's fights. It didn't auto win any of Madara's and it didn't auto win any of Sasuke's.


But it sure as did help don't you think? How does one downplay Nagato this bad just for the founders? It's sad


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> You're trolling, Madara's V4 Susanoo destroys this clown, Nagato's wanker.


v4 Susanoo is absorbed by Preta Path, wanna try again?


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Once again proving ydk how Nagato's abilities even work you just don't wanna believe he can beat the founders.. Madara would be pulled out of the the Susanoo, you know, the way Bansho Tein works?
> 
> Not how Bansho Tein OR Susanoo works.. Once again Madara would be pulled out of the Susanoo.. Plus it gets Preta Pathed anyway



I would ask why he would be pulled out, but you would prolly just call me an idiot who doesn't know how Pain works, so I don't know why I am even bothering, your just going to keep personally attacking me.

How was Naruto able to counter BT then? Can you explain that?



> One shot? Oh my God more bias.. Nagato ate up a blow from v2 B and negged it with Preta Path.. Same thing happens to Susanoo



Itachi cut straight through his arm with a weaker Susanoo.


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> v4 Susanoo is absorbed by Preta Path, wanna try again?



Nagato's Preta Path is not capable of absorbing a Bijuu Level Susano, try again.

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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He won't even know he's being hit by BT until he's hit. If you look at all the times a strong BT was used, jutsu which require focus couldn't be used. .



How did Naruto counter it then?




> So is absorption and Nagato's reflexes. The Rinnegan should logically provide some resistance for obvious reasons. Itachi chose not to use Genjutsu for a reason.



I actually almost didn't mention Genjutsu, you have a pretty good point here. I'll concede that. Though people have failed to use Genjutsu in an opportunity where they should have, and Nagato hasn't actually shown resistance as far as I remember. His paths certainly didn't.



> Deva can't be overpowered, you're citing a Deva Path power which wasn't even at max capacity.



What is his max capacity then? We never really see him go all out. The Deva path has been shown to be counterable the times we have seen it. Naruto was able to counter BT and ST, 50% Kn08 was able to counter CT, and Bee+Itachi+KCM were able to counter CT as well. Now yes, those were not "full power" Nagato, but we didn't really get to see "full power" Nagato for much time.

Why would the Deva path not be able to be overpowered? It is literally force.



> Susanoo is chakra and Nagato has Preta... think about that
> 
> Irrelevant when you're trying to apply it to Nagato himself. With Preta alone, Madara was able to pressure Hashirama into stopping Madara from using Preta and then forced him to use a non-chakra jutsu... it is more than useful. Susanoo _is _chakra, so Preta will be able to absorb it. Madara absorbed Jinton and Susanoo at the same time when Oonoki tried to sneak attack him after Tsunade was hit with Yasaka Magatama.
> 
> ...



Alright, I will admit I may have downplayed Preta a bit, I will try to come back to this a bit later, I do have some points to make but don't want to type up an entire post right now.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Yeah @MaruUchiha, It is certainly "Extreme founder wank" to think the same thing as everyone in the damn thread has said, and something that pretty much everyone believes.
> 
> Apparently believing that PS beats Nagato is wank, ( even though he was cut by Itachi's)  but believing that Madara gets stomped by one Bansho Tenin isn't. Yeah, ok.
> 
> I'm not going to debate you if you just constantly dislike and neg everything. It's really not needed. Notice how me and Koko have been debating just fine without the animosity, and how I haven't been negging or disliking your posts even though I disagree with you.


Stop saying shit like "Madara one shots with Susanoo" or "Preta Path won't help" and I won't be so hostile.. Your extreme founders bias and Nagato downplay is what's pissing me off


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Nagato's Preta Path is not capable of absorbing a Bijuu Level Susano, try again.


Nagato already absorbed Bijuu level chakra, try again


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Stop saying shit like "Madara one shots with Susanoo" or "Preta Path won't help" and I won't be so hostile.. Your extreme founders bias and Nagato downplay is what's pissing me off



I mean, he kinda does one shot with Susanoo though, PS certainly. That really isn't that ridiculous.

I didn't say Preta wouldn't help ( did I? ) I said it wouldn't be enough to win.

Honestly, saying that Nagato negs with 1 basic jutsu is a lot more ridiculous. Or that Nagato could just easily absorb Perfect Susanoo.

It also just makes sense to a lot of people that Madara would be stronger, he is basically the final boss, he is hyped above the Akatsuki. Even Obito is more scared of Madara than he is of Nagato, and Kabuto says that Madara is more powerful (Though, yes that was an improved Madara, but do you think Nagato beats Edo Madara as well?)

Even if you think I'm wanking, you don't have to get that mad, It's just a debate. Don't you think that I also think you are wanking?

You get mad at me for saying Madara one shots, yet you are saying Nagato one shots. Isn't that a taaaaaaaaaaad hypocritical?


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato already absorbed Bijuu level chakra, try again





I hope you are trolling, I will stop debating here, clearly fanaticism is blinding you, in which world to absorb the chakra of Naruto's clone and V2 Bee is = to absorb Bijuu level chakra? 

Read the manga, kid.

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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 6, 2019)

Nagato trolls madara. Preta path absorbs susanoo and all it's constructs. Heck, it absorbs all of madara's ninjutsu, so nagato wins that battle.

then there's taijutsu, where nagato can use the asura path to triple rape madara to death. His durability is also too high for madara(tanking V2 bee lariat, asura path taking a chidori), so he wins there as well.

As for genjutsu, well. I'm pretty sure nagato can break out of it, seeing as he mastered everything jiraiya taught him, which would include genjutsu breaking.


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The chakra deprived state did not factor into why he chose to use Pain seeing as chakra absorption could remedy that as we saw with him and Kisame. It was the immobility.
> These "repercussions" you cite simply do not exist and they are just the effects of chakra exhaustion hence Kishi made Nagato chakra deprived when using Pain and shortly showed us how a rejuvenated Nagato looks in the War Arc.


That was Nagato becoming emaciated by using the Gedo Mazo. This is Nagato getting life taxed by using the strongest Six Path techniques, which has absolutely nothing to do with chakra exhaustion.



Konan: *"That jutsu will shorten your life."


*
Konan: "Stop! Don't go that far! *Your body can't take anymore!"
*
Konan states Nagato's body can't take anymore, which doesn't at all point to being low on chakra. As implied, *Nagato's body has been taking it *when using the Rinnegan to its absolute limit.


As Eight Tails Naruto emerges, Nagato notes he would have to make a bigger PD. Final nail in the coffin *does not imply chakra exhaustion.*



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> If you actually look at the facts we have, Nagato would actually have _less _drawbacks using the jutsu himself compared to using them through Pain. His jutsu would be faster and stronger as you outline and he wouldn't be expending a lot of chakra controlling Pain and giving the puppet access to Rinnegan jutsu.


You say "if we look at the facts we have" and then proceed to spill your bias all over the rest of the response 

Iff Nagato's techniques are faster and stronger than Pain, it makes no sense he is spending less chakra for the same stronger and faster techniques. You're legit trying to convince us he's expelling more chakra to Pain yet producing weaker jutsu?



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> The fact Nagato was restored to his pre-Mazo state post-Bee absorption automatically tells you any time he was emaciated, he simply was chakra deprived.


Doesn't matter how you slice the cake. How did Nagato end up in that state? If you want to say whether it was chakra exhaustion or he was simply emaciated, it was the Rinnegan which put him in that state. And it was pushing the Rinnegan to its limits which caused his internal bleeding and shortening his lifespan.

Also, Nagato benefited the most from being an Edo Tensei because he didn't have to face any of the Rinnegan's detrimental effects, which is supported by the fact Itachi could use his Mangekyo Sharingan without any detrimental effects.



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> Regarding his comment following 8-tailed Naruto breaking through CT, Nagato was a Senju-Uzumaki descendant so that speaks more to his chakra capacity. Even while chakra deprived he could control many bodies and use a lot of chakra... though he could not maintain CT.


Nagato stated he would have to make a bigger one, thus chakra exhaustion is not implied. He was wasting his life away by employing these map rearranging techniques. His body couldn't hold out on the physical punishment.



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> Obito confirmed that using Pain requires a considerable amount of chakra, like that ANBU implied. So it still goes to the chakra concept. Your argument can only make sense in a scenario where a healthy Nagato faced the exact same effects that a chakra deprived one did. Why? That eliminates the chakra angle.


Using Pain was noted to require a considerable amount of chakra when the pain paths were Five Bijus. I'd like you to prove otherwise.

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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> I hope you are trolling, I will stop debating here, clearly fanaticism is blinding you, in which world to absorb the chakra of Naruto's clone and V2 Bee is = to absorb Bijuu level chakra?
> 
> Read the manga, kid.


Well Bee is a Bjuu, so technically he did. 

You might want to be more specific about the level of power you are talking about.

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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Well Bee is a Bjuu, so technically he did.
> 
> You might want to be more specific about the level of power you are talking about.



Madara's Perfect Susanoo ~ Kurama >>> 1-8 Bijuu >>> V2 Jinchuriki 

Madara 'Susanoo is Bijuu level, V2 Bee isnt.

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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> I mean, he kinda does one shot with Susanoo though





Esano said:


> saying that Nagato negs with 1 basic jutsu is a lot more ridiculous.





Esano said:


> It also just makes sense to a lot of people that Madara would be stronger, he is basically the final boss, he is hyped above the Akatsuki


And this ABC logic is why the general consensus is usually wrong.. EMS Madara spent the rest of his life trying to obtain the Rinnegan Nagato has


Esano said:


> You get mad at me for saying Madara one shots, yet you are saying Nagato one shots. Isn't that a taaaaaaaaaaad hypocritical?


That's because Nagato has several moves that can one shot EMS Madara. EMS Madara doesn't have any moves that can successfully one shot Nagato


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> EMS Madara has several moves that can one shot Nagato. Nagato doesn't have any moves that can successfully one shot EMS Madara



Fixed.

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## MaruUchiha (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Fixed.


If you truly believe that it's proof of how bias and delusional you are


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> That's because Nagato has several moves that can one shot EMS Madara. EMS Madara doesn't have any moves that can successfully one shot Nagato



If you truly believe that it's proof of how bias and delusional you are

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## hbcaptain (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara stomps, Nagato was defeated by Edo Itachi, Bee and KCM Naruto whose clones were scattered all over the other battlefields although with difficulty whilst the Gokage look like little tiny ants compared to the fossil.
PS can one shot countless Nagatos one after another.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


>






>






> And this ABC logic is why the general consensus is usually wrong.. EMS Madara spent the rest of his life trying to obtain the Rinnegan Nagato has



Sure, but that doesn't mean that Nagato is actually stronger than Madara.

There are also specific lore reasons for Madara doing so (Thanks Zetsu..)

Just because Nagato has the Rinnegan doesn't automatically put him above people that don't, and the Rinnegan can be countered, this is even mentioned by several people in verse.



> That's because Nagato has several moves that can one shot EMS Madara. EMS Madara doesn't have any moves that can successfully one shot Nagato



What makes you think Nagato can tank Susanoo attacks from Madara? Especially Perfect Susanoo?

Nagato also needs things like Preta and BT to pull of those one-shots, and I have made some points about Madara being able to counter those.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Madara's Perfect Susanoo ~ Kurama >>> 1-8 Bijuu >>> V2 Jinchuriki
> 
> Madara 'Susanoo is Bijuu level, V2 Bee isnt.



People apparently disagree that Madara's PS is above Kurama. 

Maybe you could elaborate on the reasoning for him being above Kurama. I've touched on a bunch of points myself but maybe you can come up with some others.

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## Soldierofficial (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> People apparently disagree that Madara's PS is above Kurama.
> 
> Maybe you could elaborate on the reasoning for him being above Kurama. I've touched on a bunch of points myself but maybe you can come up with some others.



I have never said that Madara's PS is stronger than Kurama, but he is portrayed similar to Kurama, which means that he is several times stronger than any other Bijuu, surely Madara's V4 Susanoo is as strong as a Bijuu, V2 Bee is fodder in comparison to them.

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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> I have never said that Madara's PS is stronger than Kurama, but he is portrayed similar to Kurama, which means that he is several times stronger than any other Bijuu, surely Madara's V4 Susanoo is as strong as a Bijuu, V2 Bee is fodder in comparison to them.


Oh I read the ~ as a >, my bad.

But yeah I agree that it is portrayed on par with Kurama, and was even used to protect Kurama, but people do argue that PS didn't show enough to match Kurama, and that Kurama is far above Madara and Hashi, and that they only beat it through Genjutsu and Suppression.

I disagree though, portrayal wise, I think PS is shown to be on par with Kurama. Madara stated that even the Bjuu could not stand up to his PS. Hashirama was also able to pick up and physically mess with the Kyuubi. PS was also able to tank the explosion of a Bjuudama and was able to combo attack with Kurama, and was used to protect Kurama.

Then you also have the feats that Madara and Hashi showed in the war, as well as even more portrayal. One example would be Obito being more scared of Madara then the entire Akatsuki, or Hashirama only admitting inferiority to Juubito, and being compared to Naruto in power and chakra. You also have Hashirama being able to hold down the Juubi and be the potentially largest portion in making a barrier which held the Juubi and a Juubidama. They should both also scale to Obito who was able to stop Gyuuki. Even with just Madara's Susanoo aura he was able to completely neg the rods which were able to hold down Bjuu as well as threaten both Bee and Naruto. Hashirama being able to tame all the Bjuu is also impressive, but some of that comes down to his specific jutsu.

But there is a shortage of more "direct" feats. This mostly comes down to the fights they were in. Madara and Hashirama mostly just fought each other, using the Kyuubi like a tool in their war of ideals.

Then when they are brought back to life they still mostly fight each other, though Hashi does have some other feats and Madara does fight some people as well, though he never really takes the fighting seriously.

This is further amplified by the gazilion different forms Madara uses.

A lot of this can also be said of Nagato though, he never really got to show his true power + experience. A lot of characters are like that, which is why it's hard for me to call people wankers so easily.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Madara Summons Kurama and they ghtetostomp Nagato


Shoulda said “Gedostomp” 

For irony’s sake 


Esano said:


> Yeah @MaruUchiha, It is certainly "Extreme founder wank" to think the same thing as everyone in the damn thread has said, and something that pretty much everyone believes.
> 
> Apparently believing that PS beats Nagato is wank, ( even though he was cut by Itachi's)  but believing that Madara gets stomped by one Bansho Tenin isn't. Yeah, ok.
> 
> I'm not going to debate you if you just constantly dislike and neg everything. It's really not needed. Notice how me and Koko have been debating just fine without the animosity, and how I haven't been negging or disliking your posts even though I disagree with you.


Wouldn’t bother with Maru

Hes like koko...But if koko was eternally salty and permanently triggered.

Koko is much more reasonable tbh


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Shoulda said “Gedostomp”
> 
> For irony’s sake
> 
> ...


I don't mind debating people I think are wrong, they must think I am wrong too.

 I just don't understand the constant attitude.

Makes me wanna cry


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> I don't mind debating people I think are wrong, they must think I am wrong too.
> 
> I just don't understand the constant attitude.
> 
> Makes me wanna cry


Meh

Give him 10 seconds and he’ll probably blame me knowing him


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Meh
> 
> Give him 10 seconds and he’ll probably blame me knowing him


Well you are apparently the world's strongest...

But then again he is an Uchiha, and we all know Uchiha are Gods....So...




This is getting off topic though.

On topic: Jiraiya wins, he has too many jutsu for Obito to handle, and so when Orochimaru tries to blitz, Hashirama is going to put him down with is Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu, the Amber Sealing Pot.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Well you are apparently the world's strongest...


That I am

Or “The big dog” ar koko likes to call me 


Esano said:


> But then again he is an Uchiha, and we all know Uchiha are Gods


Gods are nothing to non believers 




Esano said:


> On topic: Jiraiya wins, he has too many jutsu for Obito to handle, and so when Orochimaru tries to blitz, Hashirama is going to put him down with is Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu, Expansion no Jutsu.


Excuse?


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> That I am
> 
> Or “The big dog” ar koko likes to call me



You sure you aren't a Shih Tzu?




> Gods are nothing to non believers



Their eyes are soooo dreamy though.

Oh Itachi take me in your loving embrace.


> Excuse?


Kakashi solos


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> You sure you aren't a Shih Tzu?


Aint my nickname  


Esano said:


> Their eyes are soooo dreamy though.
> 
> Oh Itachi take me in your loving embrace.


I defer to you on this


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Aint my nickname
> 
> I defer to you on this




*Spoiler*: _BRUUUhhhhh_


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> *Spoiler*: _BRUUUhhhhh_


I get lost in this instead

More my speed


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I get lost in this instead
> 
> More my speed


Ino is defo top tier.

Kushina is more my speed though, gotta love the Redheads.



Mind Transfer Jutsu could definitely have some interesting...... applications though.

if there isn't a "Hottest Men and Women in Naruto" thread in the other section, there should be.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara _stomps._


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Madara _stomps._


reasons? How does he bypass Preta path?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Onda Vital (Feb 6, 2019)

If Kurama is restricted Nagato might stand a chance.

I am not sure if Nagato can absorb Susano but he might be able to pull Madara out of like Gaara and attack him. If that fails he can try to use massive Shrina Tensei like in Konoha to demolish PS, it manager to put crater in Konoha so destroying PS isn't far fetched.

Outside PS Nagato should absorb anything Madara throws at him.

As for Genjutsu maybe Nagato can resist it with Rinnengan since it is visual.

Nagato has right tools to win it just comes to it if he has enough chakra to pull it off. I am not saying that Nagato sure wins but saying that he is fodder to Madara is wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> reasons? How does he bypass Preta path?


Well my reasoning is mostly scaling.
During Pain Arc Nagato is forced to resort to CT after Deva is overpowered by KN6 Naruto[1][2][3].

Even Nagato's CT is not enough to suppress KN8 Naruto though[1][2].

This is only 1/2 Kyuubi KN8 Naruto though, as Minato sealed the other 50% of Kyuubi with himself[1].

So basically to sum things up so far Nagato's CT is inferior to a 50% Kyuubi Jinchuuriki's KN8 incarnation. Nagato claims he can make CT large enough for KN8 since that last one wasn't though.

Being generous lets go one step beyond that and say Nagato's best CT can contain fully transformed 50% Kyuubi.

That's still only half the energy of 100% Kyuubi though.

Put another way more neatly Kyusano'o > Madara's PS => 100%  Kyuubi > Full 50% Kyuubi/BM Naruto's power > 50% KN8 Naruto's power > The power of (emaciated) Nagato's CT > KN6 Naruto's power.
You can dismiss this part, but Madara's PS was big enough to fully encase 100% Kyuubi within. I believe they are around equal in power output.

Even If you make Nagato fully healthy I'm not sure that's even enough to make him as strong as BM Naruto who overpowered 5-6 other bijuu by himself. And even if Nagato were that strong, that's still only half as strong/big as full kyuubi and still way below Madara's Kyusano'o. I don't personally believe Nagato even prime can use a CT that contains 100% Kyuubi.
---
A legitimate argument can be made that Madara uses kuchiyose: Kyuubi at the beginning and it alone solos Nagato without Madara interfering or involving himself.

If the surrounding area gets bijuu bombed repeatedly, Madara will shrug it off in PS while Nagato is ragdolled by the explosive power. 

And then because of the power discrepancy (Nagato round him = 50% Kyuubi would be 1/4thish VOTE Madara's power) it may not be as simple as Preta negating everything. Would it negate jutsu and chakra constructs no matter how much bigger or more powerful they are than the user or would that be no limits fallacy and can the constructs attack during the process if the user is so small compared to their overall size? 

I'd have to assume a good deal to say Nagato wins.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Well my reasoning is mostly scaling.
> During Pain Arc Nagato is forced to resort to CT after Deva is overpowered by KN6 Naruto[1][2][3].
> 
> Even Nagato's CT is not enough to suppress KN8 Naruto though[1][2].
> ...



Fair enough. I agree

However,
Ignoring summons, apparently, a few people think that Madara PS is not stronger or equal to Kurama. In fact a few people are saying it is much weaker.


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Madara demolishes with Kurama. Debate me @Nagatotards.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Just clarifying this is a joke, Maru.


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

I'll start off by saying this was a nice post.



Onda Vital said:


> I am not sure if Nagato can absorb Susano but he might be able to pull Madara out of like Gaara and attack him.


I would say probably not. It was established that Gaara had to actually target underneath the Susano'o. And since Susano'o is a physical object, it seems quite unlikely that Nagato can pull Madara out of it. And even if he accomplishes that, Susano'o can still grab Madara while he's in the air. 



Onda Vital said:


> If that fails he can try to use massive Shrina Tensei like in Konoha to demolish PS, it manager to put crater in Konoha so destroying PS isn't far fetched.


Well, it did do that to Konoha, but PS is extremely durable shown by how it tanked a Bijuu Dama from Kurama unscathed. And that was an even weaker Armored Susano'o! There's also the fact that people were able to survive that attack with the help of Katsuyu, so I think Madara can survive since Susano'o should at least be comparable to Katsuyu in durability, and that's lowballing tbh. 



Onda Vital said:


> Outside PS Nagato should absorb anything Madara throws at him.


Agreed!



Onda Vital said:


> As for Genjutsu maybe Nagato can resist it with Rinnengan since it is visual.


Perhaps. 

I normally never use Genjutsu in arguments against the Rinnegan, so I normally give it the benefit of the doubt here even though I doubt it has immunity to Genjutsu to be honest.



Onda Vital said:


> Nagato has right tools to win it just comes to it if he has enough chakra to pull it off. I am not saying that Nagato sure wins but saying that he is fodder to Madara is wrong.


I think Nagato can easily compete and defeat Madara without Perfect Susano'o. But I think Madara is an entirely different league with Perfect Susano'o.


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> People apparently disagree that Madara's PS is above Kurama.
> 
> Maybe you could elaborate on the reasoning for him being above Kurama. I've touched on a bunch of points myself but maybe you can come up with some others.


Tbh I really don't see how PS ISN'T on par with Kurama. They're literally implied to be equals with Perfect Susano'o implied to be a more defense associated construct and Kurama implied to be more attack based. They have feats of a similar scale, PS is on par with Mokujin which is stated to be Kurama's equal in the databooks, etc. I don't understand why people think PS is weaker than Kurama. Sometimes I've seen the argument that Kurama is weaker than PS (which i also disagree with), although PS being weaker is way more heard of imo.

Mokujin is also on par with both of them imo. Obviously Susano'o is a granted since they literally fought in canon. But Kurama too because... I mean, it's stated to be on par with Kurama in the databooks. And fighting on par with PS would automatically mean that it's on par with Kurama. .-.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

X III said:


> Tbh I really don't see how PS ISN'T on par with Kurama. They're literally implied to be equals with Perfect Susano'o implied to be a more defense associated construct and Kurama implied to be more attack based. They have feats of a similar scale, PS is on par with Mokujin which is stated to be Kurama's equal in the databooks, etc. I don't understand why people think PS is weaker than Kurama. Sometimes I've seen the argument that Kurama is weaker than PS (which i also disagree with), although PS being weaker is way more heard of imo.
> 
> Mokujin is also on par with both of them imo. Obviously Susano'o is a granted since they literally fought in canon. But Kurama too because... I mean, it's stated to be on par with Kurama in the databooks. And fighting on par with PS would automatically mean that it's on par with Kurama. .-.



Implied is kinda the key word here.

Basically, people think they are weaker because Hashirama didn't 100% tank all the Kyuubi attacks, and didn't straight up smack it into submission.

Do you have that Databook scan? Honestly that would be a pretty good piece of evidence.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Implied is kinda the key word here.
> 
> Basically, people think they are weaker because Hashirama didn't 100% tank all the Kyuubi attacks, and didn't straight up smack it into submission.
> 
> Do you have that Databook scan? Honestly that would be a pretty good piece of evidence.



I know you didn’t ask me but


I found this

Reactions: Like 1


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Implied is kinda the key word here.
> 
> Basically, people think they are weaker because Hashirama didn't 100% tank all the Kyuubi attacks, and didn't straight up smack it into submission.
> 
> Do you have that Databook scan? Honestly that would be a pretty good piece of evidence.


I don't have a scan, but I do have a translation:

"page 299
Mokujin no jutsu (literally wood human) 
Ninjutsu,kekke-genkai,no range,defensive,offensive. 
Users:Hashirama Senju/Zetsu. 
*Descending God,that makes everyone get crushed by their karma(repent for their sins)! *

God of shinobi Hashirama Senju was very good at ninjutsu. By given chakra to make wood (wood release) grow faster,to take shape into very big/gigantic mokujin. The giant excels in defense and offense,and has strong physical attacks.*During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails*. Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness. 
Picture: Hashirama used this jutsu to catch and return back bijudama with just one hand. Jutsu only achieved because of Hashirama s naturally (literally chakra reserves in gene cells) large chakra. "


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> I know you didn’t ask me but
> 
> 
> I found this


Oh you already got me covered lmao.


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## Ishmael (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> By digging into the



Kakashi tried something similar, didn't work, nothing is stopping a gravitational pull, nothing.



Esano said:


> by being a giant flying death machine flying right into Nagato's face?



Requires concentration to maintain susanoo I believe, not only that but nagato can use multiple arms to channel his path abilities. Chakra absorption stops the incoming attack from susanoo if you still think Madara could hold it up while being pulled.

I don't disagree with Madara winning as he has nagato outclassed in many categories but nagato has fire power that makes up for that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 6, 2019)

Also I don't think he'll  manhandle and absorb susanoo like so many here seem to think. At best he absorbs a hit or part that's attacking him to counter attack or get away.  But absorbing as a whole? Hell no.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Kakashi tried something similar, didn't work,



Kakashi didn't have a giant Susanoo.



> nothing is stopping a gravitational pull, nothing.



Yes. Nothing. Except for Naruto. Three times.



> Requires concentration to maintain susanoo I believe, not only that but nagato can use multiple arms to channel his path abilities. Chakra absorption stops the incoming attack from susanoo if you still think Madara could hold it up while being pulled.



Madara was able to do it mid seal multiple times so he should be able to do it here. Preta might help though, but I am not sure he can absorb the entire thing.

What do you mean with the arms tho?



> I don't disagree with Madara winning as he has nagato outclassed in many categories but nagato has fire power that makes up for that.



So where does Madara outclass Nagato then? If anything fire-power would be one of the main things Madara has over him.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

X III said:


> I don't have a scan, but I do have a translation:
> 
> "page 299
> Mokujin no jutsu (literally wood human)
> ...


Coolio thanks. That's one more thing supporting the portrayal, though I guess people would bring up the fact that it was destroyed to argue against it.


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Coolio thanks. That's one more thing supporting the portrayal, though I guess people would bring up the fact that it was destroyed to argue against it.


It actually wasn't destroyed tho. Its head was still there, and Hashirama used it to protect himself.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> I know you didn’t ask me but
> 
> 
> I found this


Cool thanks


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Coolio thanks. That's one more thing supporting the portrayal, though I guess people would bring up the fact that it was destroyed to argue against it.


It wasnt destroyed tho

Its straight up stated in the DB excerpt that it morphed itself around Hashirama and tanked the attack for him


			
				Mokujin Db entry said:
			
		

> *During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails.* Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

X III said:


> It actually wasn't destroyed tho. Its head was still there, and Hashirama used it to protect himself.


Is that what happened? Honestly, those pannels are a bit confusing.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It wasnt destroyed tho
> 
> Its straight up stated in the DB excerpt that it morphed itself around Hashirama and tanked the attack for him


Oh, thanks for the clarification I always thought those pannels were a bit confusing. Everyone I was debating against kept saying Kurama easily destroyed his wood.

That makes Hashirama look a lot better tbh.


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## X III (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Is that what happened? Honestly, those pannels are a bit confusing.


Seems to be the case. The databook explains its head can be used as protective shelter, and we see Hashirama in a head (although the head looks a lot different from the Mokujin's) the next page. It's possible that head is the inside of the Mokujin?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Is that what happened? Honestly, those pannels are a bit confusing.




So id say yes


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## Ishmael (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> Kakashi didn't have a giant Susanoo.



Doesn't matter, never was it hyped or stated that susanoo can counter a gravitational pull. Also as said before it requires concentration to hold a chakra construct, or chakra period for the matter. Deals with chakra control I think, at best Madara manage a  ribcage susanoo. 



Esano said:


> Yes. Nothing. Except for Naruto. Three times.



Drop a scan please or chapter this isn't something I remember, I'll admit I'm more familiar with war arc chapters rather than previous ones at the moment.



Esano said:


> So where does Madara outclass Nagato then? If anything fire-power would be one of the main things Madara has over him.



Taijutsu, gunbai(kenjutsu), stamina, strength is possibly even though I'd edge it to nagato (asura), ninjutsu, he's smarter and more experienced as well. 

But as I said firepower helps nagato(rinnegan abilities). Preta trolls ninjutsu, killing half of Madara arsenal, Asura pushes him to the defensive, BT manipulates gravitational forces and moved things on will. Something Madara really doesn't have an answer too, ST can possibly break not just a bone but many as seen with shikamaru and boss summons. Soul rip is there too but it isn't IC imo, summons (mainly Cerberus gives distraction and is very dangerous itself as well.) Keep in mind I'm not accounting for kurama but their base arsenal( things that actually belong to them and nagatos rinnegan trumps Madaras fire power imo.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Doesn't matter, never was it hyped or stated that susanoo can counter a gravitational pull. Also as said before it requires concentration to hold a chakra construct, or chakra period for the matter. Deals with chakra control I think, at best Madara manage a  ribcage susanoo.



A gravitational pull is just that, a gravitational pull.

If something is strong enough, you could aruge it would be able to resist, as long as it can do something to anchor itself I guess.

Madara has been able to bust out Susanoo while being sealed. 




> Drop a scan please or chapter this isn't something I remember, I'll admit I'm more familiar with war arc chapters rather than previous ones at the moment.



I'm pretty shot right now. I can get them tomorrow if you want. I am talking about 

1- Naruto resists Bansho Tenin when he transforms into the partial nintails
2- Naruto resists I think it was Shinra Tensei, again as the nine tails
3- Naruto resists the pull of Chibaku Tensei, when being transformed into the ninetails


And don't worry I am pretty rusty too.



> Taijutsu



I'm not sure, skill wise, I would say he is, but that doesn't really matter that much in this fight.

Nagato was able to physically throw down with Naruto, Bee, and his Asura path is quite powerful.

Though, Madara was able to toss around the Bjuu, but that was a stronger form, I don't think this Madara is that strong.



> gunbai(kenjutsu),


True, but Nagato actually has an entire arsenal through Asura path.



> stamina


Nagato is an Uzimaki and has a lot of base Chakra, but Madara has shown the ability to throw out more techs. Nagato does seem to be weakened by the Rinnegan Techniques and cannot keep them up eternally. 



> , strength is possibly even though I'd edge it to nagato (asura), ninjutsu, he's smarter and more experienced as well.



Back to what I said in the Taijutsu section. I shoulda read your whole post before responding lol. But yeah agreed.



> But as I said firepower helps nagato(rinnegan abilities). Preta trolls ninjutsu, killing half of Madara arsenal, Asura pushes him to the defensive, BT manipulates gravitational forces and moved things on will. Something Madara really doesn't have an answer too, ST can possibly break not just a bone but many as seen with shikamaru and boss summons. Soul rip is there too but it isn't IC imo, summons (mainly Cerberus gives distraction and is very dangerous itself as well.) Keep in mind I'm not accounting for kurama but their base arsenal( things that actually belong to them and nagatos rinnegan trumps Madaras fire power imo.



That was actually my point, Nagato actually has a very very good range of different things. That's what I was trying to say.

I have already touched on why I don't think BT is as much of a thing as you guys are saying. Preta is certainly really good, and it along with a few other things do give Nagato a much better shot than he would have without it.

ST can be defended from with Susanoo, and Madara is pretty durable anyway. Well, it is actually a bit inconsistant, but he has done things like tank a massive FRS from Nartuto. He has also stoped a Rod attack that threatens Bjuu by just flaring the aura of his Susanno

Soul rip would be pretty hard to land Imo.

Honestly clones could help Madara out a good amount here if he wants to go that route.

Summons definitely work here better than they do against Hashirama. Honestly, I don't think EMS Madara really "stomps" Nagato or anything, but I am pretty confident he can win. He should be able to take out the summons, but actually keeping them down is another issue. I guess he could maybe Genjutsu them? Lol. I wonder how Nagato would break that. I guess he does have a direct link.

Yeah I wasn't including Kurama per se but it is in his arsenal. He even tries to summon in when he is brought back to life. Madara alone has some pretty damn good firepower too though. Like, if Madara starts with PS and slashes he is going to do some damage. I'm not sure Nagato could just preta away an entire Perfect Susanoo.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> ,
> 
> DB also confirms Mokujin tanks the attack when it wraps itself around Hashirama


Oh, Good.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So id say yes


Oh yeah I know I just wasn't sure exactly which Jutsu was what and exactly what happened there.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 6, 2019)

Dont let them fool you @Esano 


Soldierofficial said:


> I have never said that Madara's PS is stronger than Kurama, but he is portrayed similar to Kurama, which means that he is several times stronger than any other Bijuu, surely Madara's V4 Susanoo is as strong as a Bijuu, V2 Bee is fodder in comparison to them.


His portrayal is so far below Kurama it is just ridiculous. What is this portrayal that PS has that equals Kyuubi.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It wasnt destroyed tho
> 
> Its straight up stated in the DB excerpt that it morphed itself around Hashirama and tanked the attack for him


It was absolutely destroyed. The head only becomes the shield. The rest of the Mokujin is destroyed.

As for Mokujin being "on par" with Kyuubi, Yeah it can fight him, PURELY due to sealing/suppression Jutsu. Otherwise it is ripped apart by the kyuubi. It can't survive Bijuudama blasts, it can't hurt kyuubi in anyway, it literally can't do a damn thing to kyuubi but hit him with his own attacks and then die in the process while the kyuubi lives on with zero damage whatsoever.

It is not logical to say Mokujin is = to Kyuubis power, because he uses a jutsu not based on power to fight him.


As for the thread. 
Nagato wins a crazy fight. Mazo and Kyuubi tussle as Madara gets dealt with by Nagato.
in terms of stats.
Nagato has better:
Reaction time
Strength
DC
Durability
Hax
Versatility


Madara has better:
Speed
Defense
Experience


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Dont let them fool you @Esano
> His portrayal is so far below Kurama it is just ridiculous. What is this portrayal that PS has that equals Kyuubi.
> 
> 
> ...


They seem to be making a good point my man. 
It also makes sense with portrayal and the rest of what we see. 
The body could have been condensed down into the head.
The Databook seems to straight up say that it wasn't completely destroyed, and also implies it is on par with Kurama. I see the implication that it is due to suppression at all.

Hashirama does hurt the Kyuubi though, and he also hurts the Susanoo Madara protects the Kyuubi with, the same one that tanks a Bjuudama. You say he didn't scratch the Kyuubi, but Madara covered the Kyuubi in Susanoo to protect it.

The argument that saying they aren't equal because he uses a power to beat him makes no sense. You can beat someone and still have an ability to suppress them. They compliment each other. If he couldn't stand up to the Kyuubi, it doesn't even make sense that he would be able to suppress him. It isn't like Yamato could suppress the full Kyuubi. Because his power isn't on that level.


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## Esano (Feb 6, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Dont let them fool you @Esano
> His portrayal is so far below Kurama it is just ridiculous. What is this portrayal that PS has that equals Kyuubi.
> 
> 
> ...



Strength is iffy. Hashi should be stronger than Nagato. Madara is much more iffy.

DC is debatable, with PS and SS.

Durability is kinda inconsistent, but Madara has tanked FRS and Hashirama with his regen and sage mode would be very durable and hard to put down.
I also don't know if separating defense and durability is particularly needed, Madara's Susanoo and Hashirama's constructs are very usefull

Hax and Versatility, yeah prolly, but those are the same thing.

Reaction is pretty iffy tbh.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 6, 2019)

Esano said:


> They seem to be making a good point my man.






Esano said:


> It also makes sense with portrayal and the rest of what we see.
> The body could have been condensed down into the head.
> The Databook seems to straight up say that it wasn't completely destroyed


The Databook specifically says the head of the mokujin morphs
They are saying the whole mokujin. That is straight up, Grade A, Class 1, greasy, slimy, *lie*.
A very common tactic of the Founders Are Really Tubular alliance. Lying bunch of sweaty nerds.
Us from the Nagato-tard Neckbeard Nation see through these lies like anakin saw though the lies of the jedi. We combat them from our basement dwellings with hope...for the future...


Esano said:


> and also implies it is on par with Kurama. I see the implication that it is due to suppression at all.


My answer is in this statement.



Esano said:


> Hashirama does hurt the Kyuubi though, and he also hurts the Susanoo Madara protects the Kyuubi with, the same one that tanks a Bjuudama. You say he didn't scratch the Kyuubi, but Madara covered the Kyuubi in Susanoo to protect it.


No he doesnt lol. literally, ever. He never scratches Kyuubi.

He covered the Kyuubi in Susano to protect it...from being sealed. Which is exactly what Hashirama did after punching off susano.



Esano said:


> The argument that saying they aren't equal because he uses a power to beat him makes no sense. You can beat someone and still have an ability to suppress them. They compliment each other. If he couldn't stand up to the Kyuubi, it doesn't even make sense that he would be able to suppress him. It isn't like Yamato could suppress the full Kyuubi. Because his power isn't on that level.


I see what you are trying to say but the problem is, A boxer can punch at like 1500 pounds, a Wrestler can subdue a boxer, the wrestler cannot then go around saying he hits as hard as the boxer. that is nonsensical. Kyuubi is FAR stronger than them, BUT, they can beat him. That doesnt mean they gain his ability to destroy xyz.


Esano said:


> Strength is iffy. Hashi should be stronger than Nagato. Madara is much more iffy.


Asura threw a body of pain 20 kilometers.......What do they have that is near that?


Esano said:


> DC is debatable, with PS and SS.


Check my calc, man. Nagato shits on them in DC.



Esano said:


> Durability is kinda inconsistent, but Madara has tanked FRS and Hashirama with his regen and sage mode would be very durable and hard to put down.


 Hashirama is beatable with chakra rods. no regen for him.
Madara didnt tank FRS, he was kicked in half by lee for fucks sake.



Esano said:


> I also don't know if separating defense and durability is particularly needed, Madara's Susanoo and Hashirama's constructs are very usefull


Madaras defense of susano is actie at all times while Nagatos ST defense isnt, thats why i seperated them.



Esano said:


> Hax and Versatility, yeah prolly, but those are the same thing.


Nah, hax is like soul rip, versatility ST being used for defense and offense as well as somehow some kind of flight.



Esano said:


> Reaction is pretty iffy tbh.


 Multiple sets of eyes give Nagato a massive reaction speed advantage.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> Madara has been able to bust out Susanoo while being sealed.



You speaking on the sand thing? Involving gaara? How does that match up to what is being discussed?  That's him being held down and restricted by sand not being pulled towards something. He wasn't in any struggle or need of concentration in that scenario anyways. They thought he was sealed, he sat there and whipped out susanoo.



Esano said:


> Naruto resists Bansho Tenin when he transforms into the partial nintails
> 2- Naruto resists I think it was Shinra Tensei, again as the nine tails
> 3- Naruto resists the pull of Chibaku Tensei, when being transformed into the ninetails



I'll go back and re-read the fight, I'm not saying you're wrong but I'll respond to this more once I myself go and read the chapters.



Esano said:


> I'm not sure, skill wise, I would say he is, but that doesn't really matter that much in this fight.



How so? If you're more skilled than someone what does that generally lead to... you coming out on top.



Esano said:


> Nagato was able to physically throw down with Naruto, Bee, and his Asura path is quite powerful.



Yeah he was strong enough to keep bee restrained with asuras arm and was ripping Naruto soul out but I don't see any taijutsu feats. Though a hit from asuras arm could hurt Madara pretty bad or at least enough for him to retreat out of taijutsu or avoid it. But sharingan precog more than likely shuts that down. 




Esano said:


> True, but Nagato actually has an entire arsenal through Asura path.



Which prompts susanoo.



Esano said:


> Nagato is an Uzimaki and has a lot of base Chakra, but Madara has shown the ability to throw out more techs.



Which usually leads you to believe what? Madara has better stamina, this is backed by hype of him fighting hashi for a day or something. 



Esano said:


> Nagato does seem to be weakened by the Rinnegan Techniques and cannot keep them up eternally.



That was a gimped nagato hooked on gedo, I'm sure he'd perform pretty good without something eating on his life force.



Esano said:


> Honestly clones could help Madara out a good amount here if he wants to go that route.



Agreed. It would also help if nagato tries absorb one of his large katons.



Esano said:


> He should be able to take out the summons



How? They multiply when hit by direct impact, only thing we've seen effective in stopping them was killing the summoner and amaterasu.



Esano said:


> I guess he could maybe Genjutsu them? Lol. I wonder how Nagato would break that. I guess he does have a direct link.



Possibly but then we get into the whole rinnegan vs sharingan thing and that's an argument for another thread.



Esano said:


> Like, if Madara starts with PS and slashes he is going to do some damage. I'm not sure Nagato could just preta away an entire Perfect Susanoo



He'd possibly be fucked, ps shockwaves leveled the battlefield before we saw the actual affect of the slash itself. 

All in all Nagato losses but the rinnegan does help in a way with his chances. A lot of this depends on how Madara approaches the fight.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Also @Esano I'm a hardcore pein/nagato fan, but I know when my fav is fighting a losing battle and this is one.


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Nagato still destroys madara. Madara isn't an idiot and doesn't just pull out PS at the start of a fight. He'll use the lower stages and once he sees the construct getting absorbed he'll realise what's going on and try to not use ninjutsu. From there nagato stomps even harder.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato shit diffs with Bansho Tein to soul rip in seconds





MaruUchiha said:


> How is that gonna counter Bansho Tein?
> 
> That's because nothing Madara can do is as quick as Bansho Tein plus anything Madara does is hardcountered by Preta or Deva Path anyway





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He won't even know he's being hit by BT until he's hit. If you look at all the times a strong BT was used, jutsu which require focus couldn't be used.


Since when has Bansho Tenin been this nigh uncounterable technique? Kakashi's clone had enough time to whip out a chain and anchor itself despite never seeing the technique before. Madara is going to have time to act, and would have no issue using Susano'o to anchor himself.


MaruUchiha said:


> Once again proving ydk how Nagato's abilities even work you just don't wanna believe he can beat the founders..


Except he's right. KN6 countered Shinra Tensei simply by digging it's tails into the ground.



MaruUchiha said:


> Madara would be pulled out of the the Susanoo, you know, the way Bansho Tein works?


According to what? It's common sense that if Madara is pulled and then whips out Susano'o, that it'll be pulled with him.



> Deva can't be overpowered,


Except KN6 did just that. Even base Naruto could brace himself against it. Nagato is stronger than Deva path true, but the gap between them is smaller than the gap between Naruto and KN6, and PS and the Kyuubi



> Susanoo is chakra and Nagato has Preta... think about that. With Preta alone, Madara was able to pressure Hashirama into stopping Madara from using Preta and then forced him to use a non-chakra jutsu... it is more than useful. Susanoo _is _chakra, so Preta will be able to absorb it. Madara absorbed Jinton and Susanoo at the same time when Oonoki tried to sneak attack him after Tsunade was hit with Yasaka Magatama.
> 
> Every time Preta is fought, Ninjutsu is not an option. The Gokage went through hell because of that one power, Hashirama had to take alternative measures because of it.
> 
> ...


Kurama's physical attacks and the shockwaves from PS' sword swings cannot be absorbed as they are not chakra.



Kamalu said:


> Nagato still destroys madara. Madara isn't an idiot and doesn't just pull out PS at the start of a fight. He'll use the lower stages and once he sees the construct getting absorbed he'll realise what's going on and try to not use ninjutsu. From there nagato stomps even harder.


Not being an idiot is exactly why he's _not_ going to try and square up to a Rinnegan user with his bare hands. If his lower stages are being absorbed, then his next move is to bring out PS and attack with shockwaves Nagato cannot absorb, not stop using Susano'o and ninjutsu entirely.


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## Zexion~ (Feb 7, 2019)

Nagato loses mid difficulty lol PS is too much.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 7, 2019)

Nagato wins.
Naturally, the rinnegan is  > the sharingan and Uzumaki/senju > uchiha..
Even if nine tails is madara's summon, he still controls it with genjutsu which nagato can distort by stabbing kyuubi with black rods and distorting its chakra.
Susanoo and katon jutsu get absorbed Or overwhelmed with summons and ST, and cqc is negged by asura path.. Nagato is just stronger IMO.


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> You speaking on the sand thing? Involving gaara? How does that match up to what is being discussed?  That's him being held down and restricted by sand not being pulled towards something. He wasn't in any struggle or need of concentration in that scenario anyways. They thought he was sealed, he sat there and whipped out susanoo.



Yeah exactly, being completely held down is worse than being pulled. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use Susanoo.




> I'll go back and re-read the fight, I'm not saying you're wrong but I'll respond to this more once I myself go and read the chapters.



KK



> How so? If you're more skilled than someone what does that generally lead to... you coming out on top.



Sure, I just mean that I don't think it will devolve into a Taijutsu fight, but with Preta, who knows.



> Yeah he was strong enough to keep bee restrained with asuras arm and was ripping Naruto soul out but I don't see any taijutsu feats. Though a hit from asuras arm could hurt Madara pretty bad or at least enough for him to retreat out of taijutsu or avoid it. But sharingan precog more than likely shuts that down.



Strength more than Taijutsu I guess





> Which prompts susanoo.



True.



> Which usually leads you to believe what? Madara has better stamina, this is backed by hype of him fighting hashi for a day or something.



I actually forgot how long the Hashi fight was. Was it a whole day? I think it actually was. Yeah, he prolly has more Stamina, especially with how taxing the rinnegan stuff is for Nagato to use




> That was a gimped nagato hooked on gedo, I'm sure he'd perform pretty good without something eating on his life force.


It's hard to say



> Agreed. It would also help if nagato tries absorb one of his large katons.


Ya



> How? They multiply when hit by direct impact, only thing we've seen effective in stopping them was killing the summoner and amaterasu.



Yeah, I mean more so that they aren't a big threat, he can just keep one shotting them. They might be a bit of a pain though.



> Possibly but then we get into the whole rinnegan vs sharingan thing and that's an argument for another thread.





> He'd possibly be fucked, ps shockwaves leveled the battlefield before we saw the actual affect of the slash itself.



Yeah, just pulling the sword out fucked up mountains



> All in all Nagato losses but the rinnegan does help in a way with his chances. A lot of this depends on how Madara approaches the fight.




Yeah agreed.


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> The Databook specifically says the head of the mokujin morphs
> They are saying the whole mokujin. That is straight up, Grade A, Class 1, greasy, slimy, *lie*.



If it morphs into a bigger head then the whole thing survives.



> A very common tactic of the Founders Are Really Tubular alliance. Lying bunch of sweaty nerds.
> Us from the Nagato-tard Neckbeard Nation see through these lies like anakin saw though the lies of the jedi. We combat them from our basement dwellings with hope...for the future...
> My answer is in this statement.



You were meant to bring reason to the debate! Not increase the salt!



> No he doesnt lol. literally, ever. He never scratches Kyuubi.


Idk man this looks like it hurts:




> He covered the Kyuubi in Susano to protect it...from being sealed. Which is exactly what Hashirama did after punching off susano.


What? He did it in direct response to the Bjuudama.



> I see what you are trying to say but the problem is, A boxer can punch at like 1500 pounds, a Wrestler can subdue a boxer, the wrestler cannot then go around saying he hits as hard as the boxer. that is nonsensical. Kyuubi is FAR stronger than them, BUT, they can beat him. That doesnt mean they gain his ability to destroy xyz.



Sure, but at these levels it doesn't really make a difference. These are beyond superhuman feats here.

Not saying they can destroy Xyz, just hurt people who can tank things that destroy Xyz.



> Asura threw a body of pain 20 kilometers.......What do they have that is near that?



Brah, thats not even block level lol. Tsunade's part 1 feat is better. Madara was kicking around Bjuu.



> Check my calc, man. Nagato shits on them in DC.


Yeah I will get to it when I have a chance to respond to the big post. I am a bit busy, just replying to small posts on breaks.

Maybe I'll take a peak now because I don't see how you could possible get above Island level from what he did.



> Hashirama is beatable with chakra rods. no regen for him.


Sure, not exactly hard to hit.



> Madara didnt tank FRS, he was kicked in half by lee for fucks sake.



Honestly I've always thought that feat was dumb, seems odd. Or maybe Lee + Kurama Aura is just that strong. It is two multipliers stacked on top of each other. Hashirama states that the FRS did no damage.



> Madaras defense of susano is actie at all times while Nagatos ST defense isnt, thats why i seperated them.



That's the thing though, if he can keep it active, it's basically durability, just because Nagato can't doesn't mean you get to just discount it.



> Nah, hax is like soul rip, versatility ST being used for defense and offense as well as somehow some kind of flight.


Eh, I guess, I would combine them under something like "techs"



> Multiple sets of eyes give Nagato a massive reaction speed advantage.


What Multiple sets?


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 7, 2019)

LOL even the mods can't fathom Nagato > EMS Madara


Blu-ray said:


> Since when has Bansho Tenin been this nigh uncounterable technique?


It's not, but EMS Madara can't counter it. Can you accept that?


Blu-ray said:


> Kakashi's clone had enough time to whip out a chain and anchor itself despite never seeing the technique before. Madara is going to have time to act, and would have no issue using Susano'o to anchor himself.


Not how Bansho Tein works sir


Blu-ray said:


> Except he's right. KN6 countered Shinra Tensei simply by digging it's tails into the ground


EMS Madara has tails?


Blu-ray said:


> According to what? It's common sense that if Madara is pulled and then whips out Susano'o, that it'll be pulled with him.


Once again not how Bansho Tein works


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 7, 2019)

According to @WorldsStrongest having a "good opinion" is being completely bias towards the founders and downplaying the Rinnegan


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 7, 2019)

According to @MaruUchiha having a "good opinion" is being completely bias towards the Rinnegan and downplaying the founders

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> According to @MaruUchiha having a "good opinion" is being completely bias towards the Rinnegan and downplaying the founders


Bruuuh  ur just mad that Bansho Tein fucking murders ur fav.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 7, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> According to @MaruUchiha having a "good opinion" is being completely bias towards the Rinnegan and downplaying the founders


I have no reason to be bias towards the Rinnegan or downplay the founders and that's why you guys are getting so triggered.. You want me to overhype the founders like you


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Not being an idiot is exactly why he's _not_ going to try and square up to a Rinnegan user with his bare hands.


As far as this version of madara is concerned, the rinnegan makes you a ninjutsu God, not a taijutsu master. So best case he stalemates by running away.



> If his lower stages are being absorbed, then his next move is to bring out PS and attack with shockwaves Nagato cannot absorb, not stop using Susano'o and ninjutsu entirely.


And what exactly stops nagato from attacking him while PS is being formed? What stops nagato from hopping on PS and just absorbing the chakra on and on, forcing madara to stop using the thing anyway? He still counters susanoo bruh


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> I have no reason to be bias towards the Rinnegan or downplay the founders and that's why you guys are getting so triggered.. You want me to overhype the founders like you


I have no reason to be biased toward the founders or downplay Nagato. Why are you getting so triggered. You want me to overhype Nagato like you?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> Bruuuh ur just mad that Bansho Tein fucking murders ur fav.



I hate Madara, it's Nagato who is one of my favorite characters  



MaruUchiha said:


> I have no reason to be bias towards the Rinnegan or downplay the founders and that's why you guys are getting so triggered.. You want me to overhype the founders like you



Read the manga, kid

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> I hate Madara, it's Nagato who is one of my favorite characters



Funny. I'm not some massive Nagato fan myself but I have no hate for the man. I think he is pretty fucking cool. Would prolly make it in a top character list somewhere.

What you should be excited about is that Kakashi is immune to paralysis, which is pretty fucking neat.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> Yeah exactly, being completely held down is worse than being pulled



Eh.



Esano said:


> . I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use Susanoo.



One because as stated before he is being pulled, there is no time for him to pull susanoo out. Being pulled and held down aren't the same, he has time to get susanoo up being held down. Being pulled he doesnt get thst same luxury, also they thought they had him sealed. Why? Because they couldn't see him nor did they know he had susanoo. Being pulled nagato can actively see and keep check on Madara.



Esano said:


> It's hard to say



So you think a prime nagato meaning one who's mobile and isn't having to constantly be hooked up to gedo. Which keeps him alive but drains life force is the same as the one we got to see?


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Eh.



Isn't it? I would say it is. Sealing is more than just being held down as well.



> One because as stated before he is being pulled, there is no time for him to pull susanoo out. Being pulled and held down aren't the same, he has time to get susanoo up being held down. Being pulled he doesnt get thst same luxury, also they thought they had him sealed. Why? Because they couldn't see him nor did they know he had susanoo. Being pulled nagato can actively see and keep check on Madara.



Kakashi was able to throw a chain around a building. Naruto was able dig himself into the ground twice.
I think Madara will be ok.




> So you think a prime nagato meaning one who's mobile and isn't having to constantly be hooked up to gedo. Which keeps him alive but drains life force is the same as the one we got to see?



Think a prime Nagato would what?


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## Skimandla (Feb 7, 2019)

Preta path can absorb PS


Who have more chakra *MADARA *or *PS
*


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Also bansho pulls whatever the user is focusing on. It'll pull Madara. Look at how bansho was used against kakashi, he pulled him since he was focusing on him. A little rubble came along from the ground but nothing that was around kakashi pulled with him. 

Nagato would pull Madara out of bansho imo and we've seen how that looks, susanoo left behind and the user being pulled by whatever has him.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

The best I see madara putting up whole being pulled out the blue is a ribcage, it requires concentration and i don't see many holding that. Especially when being jerked toward by something out of nowhere.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Skimandla said:


> Preta path can absorb PS



Negative. PS kills nagato no diff.


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Also bansho pulls whatever the user is focusing on. It'll pull Madara. Look at how bansho was used against kakashi, he pulled him since he was focusing on him. A little rubble came along from the ground but nothing that was around kakashi pulled with him.
> 
> Nagato would pull Madara out of bansho imo and we've seen how that looks, susanoo left behind and the user being pulled by whatever has him.


Susanoo travels with the User, it doesn't matter if Nagato physically pulls it or not.


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> The best I see madara putting up whole being pulled out the blue is a ribcage, it requires concentration and i don't see many holding that. Especially when being jerked toward by something out of nowhere.


Again, Kakashi could analyze and act during it, so could Naruto. Madara has brought out Susanoo under much worse conditions.


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Negative. PS kills nagato no diff.


How? As soon as the blades touch him, he begins to absorb the chakra and he has withstood a bijuudama on panel


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> Isn't it? I would say it is. Sealing is more than just being held down as well.



Yes but in that case they had him surrounded with it and and it led them to believe they had him beat (sealed).



Esano said:


> Kakashi was able to throw a chain around a building.



What happened after that?



Esano said:


> Naruto was able dig himself into the ground twice.



I'll look into that but I firmly remember BT being what led to him with chakra rods in his hand and receiving a pep talk.


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> How? As soon as the blades touch him, he begins to absorb the chakra and he has withstood a bijuudama on panel



The shockwave will due


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Yes but in that case they had him surrounded with it and and it led them to believe they had him beat (sealed).



That isn't really the point. It also happened twice




> What happened after that?



Kakashi escaped the situation through a clone. Lol.

But it doesn't matter because Kakashi doesn't have a Susanoo to use.



> I'll look into that but I firmly remember BT being what led to him with chakra rods in his hand and receiving a pep talk.



I am talking about cloaked Naruto not SM Naruto.


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> Susanoo travels with the User, it doesn't matter if Nagato physically pulls it or not



So why didn't it travel with Madara once gaaras sand got him or when itachi walked right out of it to confront sasuke?


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## Esano (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> So why didn't it travel with Madara once gaaras sand got him or when itachi walked right out of it to confront sasuke?


Acutally, that's a good point. That doesn't really make sense. I'll have to go check that scene out. We do know Susanoo moves with you though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> How? As soon as the blades touch him, he begins to absorb the chakra and he has withstood a bijuudama on panel



Shockwaves send him flying and he gets injured along the way, there's no need for a direct slash. PS also has more than one hand this means strikes from different angles. Nagato dies. Something that was slicing mountains isn't causally being absorbed.


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> The shockwave will due


Bijuudama>shockwave


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Shockwaves send him flying


He tanks that. He already ate his own shinra tensei and took a bijuudama on panel. Bijuudama + Shinra tensei>Shockwave.



> and he gets injured along the way, there's no need for a direct slash.


He didn't get injured by the bijuudama, nor did he get injured by his own shinra tensei, but sure, the weaker shockwave is *somehow *gonna suddenly harm him. Because madara i guess



> PS also has more than one hand this means strikes from different angles.


Cool. PS will be hitting itself while nagato just jumps from arm to arm absorbing chakra along the way and releasing mountain level shinra tensei's to blow off the swords as well.



> Nagato dies *of old age after killing madara*.


FTFY



> Something that was slicing mountains isn't causally being absorbed.


Not when the absorber can also output mountain level attacks and absorb on the same scale.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> He tanks that. He already ate his own shinra tensei and took a bijuudama on panel. Bijuudama + Shinra tensei>Shockwave.
> 
> 
> He didn't get injured by the bijuudama, nor did he get injured by his own shinra tensei, but sure, the weaker shockwave is *somehow *gonna suddenly harm him. Because madara i guess
> ...



What does FTFY mean?


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 7, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> What does FTFY mean?


Fixed that for you.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> LOL even the mods can't fathom Nagato > EMS Madara


Because he's not.


> It's not, but EMS Madara can't counter it. Can you accept that?


He can and I stated why, so why would I accept it? All you've said is that he can't while saying "_that's no how Bansho Tenin works"_ with no elaboration whatsoever.



> EMS Madara has tails?


No. But I don't buy that you're so dense that you think it was simply having tails and not the act of using those tails to anchor itself to the ground that let KN6 counter Shinra Tensei. That was the same tactic Tsunade intended to employ by putting chakra to her feet, and that's something Madara can do with his Susano'o.


> Once again not how Bansho Tein works


Then explain since you seem to know so much.



Kamalu said:


> As far as this version of madara is concerned, the rinnegan makes you a ninjutsu God, not a taijutsu master. So best case he stalemates by running away.


If he can run away, then he can run away, use PS, and swing it in Nagato's general direction. Not that running from someone who has Bansho Tenin is ever gonna work.



> And what exactly stops nagato from attacking him while PS is being formed?


Nothing. But it's not like that achieves anything. PS still forms and whatever Nagato attacked him with would have been tanked by the still forming PS.



> What stops nagato from hopping on PS and just absorbing the chakra on and on, forcing madara to stop using the thing anyway? He still counters susanoo bruh


How exactly is a cripple hopping on a structure practically the size of a mountain? If Madara already has PS out, why wouldn't he simply swing the blade in Nagato's general direction instead of waiting for him to get close?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 7, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> According to @WorldsStrongest having a "good opinion" is being completely bias towards the founders and downplaying the Rinnegan


No

According to me, not completely and totally disregarding manga feats and portrayal makes for a good opinion.

And according to both manga feats AND portrayal, Nagato gets ass reamed by the Founders or ANYONE ON THEIR LEVEL. So please do tell how Im biased toward JUST THE FOUNDERS when I tell you that BM Naruto, BM Minato, EMS Sasuke, and Rinnegan Obito can EACH put a goddamn spite baby in Nagato?

What makes for a bad opinion, is doing literally nothing but talking out of your ass and throwing out the word "bias" every 5 seconds...Which is what you seem to do.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 7, 2019)

Esano said:


> If it morphs into a bigger head then the whole thing survives.


But...it doesnt...It says the head morphs, not the whole thing. Pretty straight forward



Esano said:


> You were meant to bring reason to the debate! Not increase the salt!


If you are not with pain,....then you must be shown pain...



Esano said:


> Idk man this looks like it hurts:


That hurts about as much as a guy picking up his chihuahua. 



Esano said:


> What? He did it in direct response to the Bjuudama.


Yeah, and to prevent Hashi from sealing the kyuubi, hence why the second he knocks the armor away, he seals the kyuubi.



Esano said:


> Sure, but at these levels it doesn't really make a difference. These are beyond superhuman feats here.
> 
> Not saying they can destroy Xyz, just hurt people who can tank things that destroy Xyz.


By saying he is "on par with kyuubi" you are saying what? that he has the same dc, durability, stamina? no? then what? only that he can seal him? Thats the worst way to explain on par ever. 



Esano said:


> Brah, thats not even block level lol. Tsunade's part 1 feat is better. Madara was kicking around Bjuu.


Striking and throwing are different.


Esano said:


> Yeah I will get to it when I have a chance to respond to the big post. I am a bit busy, just replying to small posts on breaks.
> 
> Maybe I'll take a peak now because I don't see how you could possible get above Island level from what he did.


Its like 70 times bigger than the original calc.



Esano said:


> Honestly I've always thought that feat was dumb, seems odd. Or maybe Lee + Kurama Aura is just that strong. It is two multipliers stacked on top of each other. Hashirama states that the FRS did no damage.


It fits though, Tsunade one shot Madara with a punch. Madara feels the need to block raikage. V2 Bee shits on A4 in power.



Esano said:


> What Multiple sets?


 Asura path faces. And any summon he uses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## X III (Feb 7, 2019)

Alrighty, I'm engaging in a text war with you now. I'm bored of Maru. 



kokodeshide said:


> But...it doesnt...It says the head morphs, not the whole thing. Pretty straight forward


Why would the head be more durable than the rest though?? And can you provide proof the rest of it was destroyed?



kokodeshide said:


> That hurts about as much as a guy picking up his chihuahua.


Then why did it roar, my man? Sounded like agony to me. 



kokodeshide said:


> By saying he is "on par with kyuubi" you are saying what? that he has the same dc, durability, stamina? no? then what? only that he can seal him? Thats the worst way to explain on par ever.


What else could the statement mean though? A Wood Golem is not "on par" with the Kyuubi if it seals it. That means it's *stronger*, in this context at least. It must be referring to pure strength. The translation doesn't even make reference of Mokujin's sealing.. In fact it says right before that that the giant excels in offense and defense, and possesses strong physical attacks. So the context is made apparent, my man.



kokodeshide said:


> It fits though, Tsunade one shot Madara with a punch. Madara feels the need to block raikage. V2 Bee shits on A4 in power.


I know we were debating durability in the last post, although I hardly feel that is now an issue. There are different types of damage resistances. If I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said that Nagato really did tank Lariat and Amaterasu, it doesn't matter because he is prone to piercing, proven by Itachi's Susano'o stabbing him twice.




kokodeshide said:


> No he doesnt lol. literally, ever. He never scratches Kyuubi.
> 
> He covered the Kyuubi in Susano to protect it...from being sealed. Which is exactly what Hashirama did after punching off susano.


This is really down to your interpretation of the scene... For all we know, Kurama could have actually been hurt by his own TBB, which is why Madara protected him. Unless you got durability feats proving otherwise.. 



kokodeshide said:


> His portrayal is so far below Kurama it is just ridiculous. What is this portrayal that PS has that equals Kyuubi.


= Mokujin which is = Kurama.

Only Tailed Beast which Perfect Susano'o has been shown next to (and be worn like armor) is Kurama. 

Perfect Susano'o has feats on a similar level, no-selling Kurama's strongest attacks and has shockwaves capable of splitting mountain tops no diff. Smoke clouds behind said mountains were mountain sized, even destroyed his Tengai Shinsei meteor which was slightly smaller than a mountain, my man. Some good feats. Don't see how any other TB can compete, especially because most their defense feats are lacking. I feel like all the Tailed Beasts bar Kurama are weak on the defense compartment. Most of them are only strong in one category (TBB).



kokodeshide said:


> Nagato wins a crazy fight. Mazo and Kyuubi tussle as Madara gets dealt with by Nagato.


Proof Mazo is Kyuubi level, or Nagato can control it??



kokodeshide said:


> I see what you are trying to say but the problem is, A boxer can punch at like 1500 pounds, a Wrestler can subdue a boxer, the wrestler cannot then go around saying he hits as hard as the boxer. that is nonsensical. Kyuubi is FAR stronger than them, BUT, they can beat him. That doesnt mean they gain his ability to destroy xyz.


That's because boxers and wrestlers are different professions. This is a Kaiju Manga (at least the end of it), so I don't see the comparison tbh my man. And there's the fact Mokujin could swap hands with PS (Houbi even blocked Madara's sword swings).



kokodeshide said:


> Strength


I don't see how an emaciated cripple is > Madara physically. If you're including Asura? Yes. But in that case, isn't it only fair to include Susano'o as well? And surely Susano'o is physically superior.



kokodeshide said:


> Asura threw a body of pain 20 kilometers.......What do they have that is near that?


Based on what?



kokodeshide said:


> Us from the Nagato-tard Neckbeard Nation see through these lies like anakin saw though the lies of the jedi.


And just like Anakin, you'll die redeeming yourself for becoming a Sith.


----------



## X III (Feb 7, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Nagato wins.
> Naturally, the rinnegan is  > the sharingan and Uzumaki/senju > uchiha..
> Even if nine tails is madara's summon, he still controls it with genjutsu which nagato can distort by stabbing kyuubi with black rods and distorting its chakra.
> Susanoo and katon jutsu get absorbed Or overwhelmed with summons and ST, and cqc is negged by asura path.. Nagato is just stronger IMO.


I never understood this logic. Just because somebody's got greater Dojutsu doesn't make them stronger. You gotta take into account if they're the original wielder (which Nagato isn't..) and if they have as much skill as the inferior Dojutsu user. As BZ explained, a master with a rock can beat a novice with a shuriken, my man. 

Mu and Ohnoki have a Kekkei Touta? Does it mean they're stronger than Hashirama..? A kekkei Genkai user? 

Hinata and Neji both had the Byakugan in the Chunin Exams, and yet Neji was stronger?

So yeah, I don't think it's a valid argument. Kakashi has MS. Doesn't mean he's MS Obito level. Just like Kakashi, Nagato is does not have an Uchiha vessel to hold the visual prowess. His longevity as an Uzumaki allows him to tussle on through the pain of the Rinnegan (like CT weakening him to the point of bleeding, or CST shortening his life..), but not an Uchiha body which is renowned for handling visual prowess.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 7, 2019)

X III said:


> Alrighty, I'm engaging in a text war with you now. I'm bored of Maru.






X III said:


> Why would the head be more durable than the rest though?? And can you provide proof the rest of it was destroyed?


The head BECAME a different jutsu. And the body wasn't transformed, so where did it go then?


X III said:


> Then why did it roar, my man? Sounded like agony to me.



He...uh...he always roars...in response to nearly every situation. This is a silly argument.


X III said:


> What else could the statement mean though? A Wood Golem is not "on par" with the Kyuubi if it seals it. That means it's *stronger*, in this context at least. It must be referring to pure strength. The translation doesn't even make reference of Mokujin's sealing.. In fact it says right before that that the giant excels in offense and defense, and possesses strong physical attacks. So the context is made apparent, my man.


No. If you exclude a Kyuubi chakra roar and the TBB, I have no doubt that Kurama fights equally with the mokujin.



X III said:


> I know we were debating durability in the last post, although I hardly feel that is now an issue. There are different types of damage resistances. If I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said that Nagato really did tank Lariat and Amaterasu, it doesn't matter because he is prone to piercing, proven by Itachi's Susano'o stabbing him twice.


He isn't "prone" to piercing. Totsuka cut through sage enhance Kimimaro bone. It is a sharp ass blade. And the other scene was Nagatos outstretched arm being fuckin karate chopped by a susano hand by itachi moving really fast. 



X III said:


> This is really down to your interpretation of the scene... For all we know, Kurama could have actually been hurt by his own TBB, which is why Madara protected him. Unless you got durability feats proving otherwise..


Yes, Juubis focused laser didnt kill a 50 percent version of kurama.



X III said:


> = Mokujin which is = Kurama.


In specific areas.


X III said:


> Only Tailed Beast which Perfect Susano'o has been shown next to (and be worn like armor) is Kurama.


Ok?



X III said:


> Perfect Susano'o has feats on a similar level, no-selling Kurama's strongest attacks and has shockwaves capable of splitting mountain tops no diff. Smoke clouds behind said mountains were mountain sized, even destroyed his Tengai Shinsei meteor which was slightly smaller than a mountain, my man. Some good feats. Don't see how any other TB can compete, especially because most their defense feats are lacking.


This is dishonest. PS no sold the WEAKEST version of kuramas strongest attack. And shockwaves splitting mountais is literally 20 times weaker than a lesser TBB.

The other bijuu are strong, Saiken might even melt susano, we know mei was melting his susano. And how many TBB can the susano take? can it take a TBB barrage?



X III said:


> I feel like all the Tailed Beasts bar Kurama are weak on the defense compartment. Most of them are only strong in one category (TBB).


 Gyuuki tanked his TBB on 2.5 occasions.



X III said:


> Proof Mazo is Kyuubi level, or Nagato can control it??


It took gyuuki, KCM naruto, 6th gate gai, Kakashi all working in unison to knock it over. Kyuubi was pushed out of konoha by hiruzen and a handful of scrubs.

Nagato controlled it to attack hanzos crew. he also controls it everytime the bijuu are sealed.



X III said:


> That's because boxers and wrestlers are different professions. This is a Kaiju Manga (at least the end of it), so I don't see the comparison tbh my man. And there's the fact Mokujin could swap hands with PS (Houbi even blocked Madara's sword swings).


You dont see the different between combat styles? And the outright dishonestly to say PS or Mojukin have Kyuubi level output?



X III said:


> I don't see how an emaciated cripple is > Madara physically. If you're including Asura? Yes. But in that case, isn't it only fair to include Susano'o as well? And surely Susano'o is physically superior.


I disagree, but I see your point. Susano and a body morphing technique not the same thing.



X III said:


> Based on what?


Based on the village being over 40 km in diameter and asura throwing a body into the center of the village.


X III said:


> And just like Anakin, you'll die redeeming yourself for becoming a Sith.


----------



## X III (Feb 8, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> The head BECAME a different jutsu. And the body wasn't transformed, so where did it go then?


It's the same Jutsu. I don't see the databook classifying it as "Wood Golem Head Jutsu."

Burden of proof is on you to show me the Mokujin is destroyed. I could easily assume one of the wood pieces in that giant panel is the Wood Golem. We could also assume Hashirama withdrew it to not cause more damage to the land.



kokodeshide said:


> He...uh...he always roars...in response to nearly every situation. This is a silly argument.


This sounds like an excuse to me.



kokodeshide said:


> No. If you exclude a Kyuubi chakra roar and the TBB, I have no doubt that Kurama fights equally with the mokujin.


I also have no doubt that Mokujin can destroy Kurama if all he needs to do is touch him to win. I also have no doubt that the databook is referring to pure power.



kokodeshide said:


> He isn't "prone" to piercing. Totsuka cut through sage enhance Kimimaro bone. It is a sharp ass blade.


And Perfect Susano'o could cut mountain tops with shockwaves. It's also stated it can cut through steel with no issue.



kokodeshide said:


> And the other scene was Nagatos outstretched arm being fuckin karate chopped by a susano hand by itachi moving really fast.


And?



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, Juubis focused laser didnt kill a 50 percent version of kurama.


Which refers to the endurance of BM Naruto Kurama Avatar. Has nothing to do with full Kurama's durability.



kokodeshide said:


> In specific areas.


Sounded like "overall" to me.



kokodeshide said:


> Ok?


Because being next to Kurama isn't portrayal?



kokodeshide said:


> This is dishonest. PS no sold the WEAKEST version of kuramas strongest attack.


And how is that dishonest? The fact that it didn't scratch Susano'o and the fact that was a weaker V4 Susano'o are things I also kept secret.



kokodeshide said:


> And shockwaves splitting mountais is literally 20 times weaker than a lesser TBB.


Yes, shockwaves cutting mountains. Look at the blade's power itself.



kokodeshide said:


> we know mei was melting his susano.


Dishonesty.



kokodeshide said:


> And how many TBB can the susano take? can it take a TBB barrage?


If it could tank Kurama's TBB with no issues, it can probably tank a TBB from another Bijuu. A better question would be can a TB tank a Perfect Susano'o slash?



kokodeshide said:


> Gyuuki tanked his TBB on 2.5 occasions.


And all the other Bijuu lost to weaker attacks. Seems like Gyuki is an outlier.



kokodeshide said:


> It took gyuuki, KCM naruto, 6th gate gai, Kakashi all working in unison to knock it over.


It was Gyuki alone. Naruto wasn't even in KCM, and Guy wasn't in 6th Gate.



kokodeshide said:


> Nagato controlled it to attack hanzos crew. he also controls it everytime the bijuu are sealed.


With rods in his back, which is the point.

How is he gonna fight Madara while immobilized?



kokodeshide said:


> You dont see the different between combat styles? And the outright dishonestly to say PS or Mojukin have Kyuubi level output?


Except I never stated PS has Kyuubi level output. I stated Kurama is more offense based and PS is more defense based, yet they're still equals.

Somehow it's dishonest to claim Mokujin = PS = Kyuubi despite the DB supporting said statement. Interpreting the databook stating "A big giant which excels in offense and defense. It has powerful physical attacks. During the battle with Madara, it was on par with the Nine Tails" as "Mokujin is only on par because of sealing" is completely honest?



kokodeshide said:


> I disagree, but I see your point. Susano and a body morphing technique not the same thing.


They are both Jutsu, which aren't genetically part of Madara or Nagato.



kokodeshide said:


> Based on the village being over 40 km in diameter and asura throwing a body into the center of the village.


Just saying right now that the FoD in the scan you will bring up isn't the FoD.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 8, 2019)

X III said:


> It's the same Jutsu. I don't see the databook classifying it as "Wood Golem Head Jutsu."
> 
> Burden of proof is on you to show me the Mokujin is destroyed. I could easily assume one of the wood pieces in that giant panel is the Wood Golem. We could also assume Hashirama withdrew it to not cause more damage to the land


"By given chakra to make wood (wood release) grow faster,to take shape into very big/gigantic mokujin. The giant excels in defense and offense,and has strong physical attacks.During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails. *Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness.* "

What are you talking about?


X III said:


> This sounds like an excuse to me.


You trolling here? Grabbing kyuubi hurts him??????is he less durable than a small dog?


X III said:


> I also have no doubt that Mokujin can destroy Kurama if all he needs to do is touch him to win. I also have no doubt that the databook is referring to pure power.


pure PHYSICAL power sure.



X III said:


> And Perfect Susano'o could cut mountain tops with shockwaves. It's also stated it can cut through steel with no issue.


Which is absolutely pathetic in comparison to nagatos and any bijuus capabilities. It is a 200 megaton feat. Lesser bijuu TBB are 3.8 gigatons.


X III said:


> And?


That means it isn't a piercing move.


X III said:


> Which refers to the endurance of BM Naruto Kurama Avatar. Has nothing to do with full Kurama's durability.


Are you implying the full kyuubi has less defense than half of himself?



X III said:


> Sounded like "overall" to me.


That is pure bias then because it obviously isnt, not does it even matter as the kyuubi is a mindless beast who cant control his power anyway.


X III said:


> Because being next to Kurama isn't portrayal?


What are you even talking about. Being next to him is portrayal of what? location?


X III said:


> And how is that dishonest? The fact that it didn't scratch Susano'o and the fact that was a weaker V4 Susano'o are things I also kept secret.


cool, v4 susano<PS
uncharged TBB<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Charged TBB.



X III said:


> Yes, SHOCKWAVES cutting mountains. Look at the blade's power itself.


It's equal to a FRS, which hit Kyuubi who shrugged it off like a boss, while at 50 percent.



X III said:


> This isn't dishonest?


Simple mistake, changes nothing, It was lava that melted part of Madaras susano. So son goku instead of Saiken. But her acid still melted Sasukes and Durability has no meaning to acid.


X III said:


> If it could tank Kurama's TBB with no issues, it can probably tank a TBB from another Bijuu. A better question would be can a TB tank a Perfect Susano'o slash?


a single blast is not the same as a focused barrage. And could a TB take a slash, surely, 50 percent of kyuubi could, Gyuuki took his own blast up close. and even a more focused shot on his head when he pushed a TBB down juubies throat.



X III said:


> And all the other Bijuu lost to weaker attacks. Seems like Gyuki is an outlier.


None of the bijuu lost to anything. They were all still standing, Naruto took the stakes out of them.



X III said:


> It was Gyuki alone. Naruto wasn't even in KCM, and Guy wasn't in 6th Gate.



Gai is in the page before doing his pinky toe attack.
What are you talking about? This is like the 3rd time i have had to say this, i mean no disrespect but, are you trolling right now?



X III said:


> With rods in his back, which is the point.


Haha, The mazo had no Bijuus in it, how could it move? It needed a source of life. Once it had Bijuu it could move.


X III said:


> How is he gonna fight Madara while immobilized?


 He wouldnt be. Not like it would be a huge problem anyway.



X III said:


> Except I never stated PS has Kyuubi level output. I stated Kurama is more offense based and PS is more defense based, yet they're still equals.


Cool, but by saying they are equal and NOT making the distiction clear everytime it is just dishonest.



X III said:


> Somehow it's dishonest to claim Mokujin = PS = Kyuubi despite the DB supporting said statement. Interpreting the databook stating "A big giant which excels in offense and defense. It has powerful physical attacks. During the battle with Madara, it was on par with the Nine Tails" as "Mokujin is only on par because of sealing" is completely honest?


 Because thats what the manga shows. Mokujin failed to even survive the TBB. so no matter what, mokujin loses to kurama without sealing.



X III said:


> They are both Jutsu, which aren't genetically part of Madara or Nagato.



So a taijutsu fight with kakashi should exclude sharingan because it isn't genetically his....?

Seriously, a body modification jutsu like the Akimichis or Gates or Kimimaros or Orochimarus or CS2 or the hozuki clan, etc, are NOT the same thing as a chakra construct that exists separately from you.


X III said:


> Just saying right now that the FoD in the scan you will bring up isn't the FoD.


Cool beans, i'd say the slight issue of missing a single river is a oversight but even still. That is not how the calc was done anyway. This is the accepted size of konoha.


----------



## Esano (Feb 8, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> But...it doesnt...It says the head morphs, not the whole thing. Pretty straight forward



Kinda hard too say, it is a bit vague. The body could have morphed into the head though, that seems to make the most sense. Why would the head just change shape?

Either way it shows Hashirama can block Bjuudama and the Databook states that even Base Hashi is on par with the Kyuubi.



> If you are not with pain,....then you must be shown pain...


My pain is greater than yours!
Madara was born into the OP! Nagato merely ADOPTED IT!



> That hurts about as much as a guy picking up his chihuahua.



I disagree. Kyuubi doesn't look unharmed to me.

Even if you want to make a comparison to a scared dog, that just further proves Hashirama's portrayal as being above it.



> Yeah, and to prevent Hashi from sealing the kyuubi, hence why the second he knocks the armor away, he seals the kyuubi.


First and foremost to block the Bjuudama though. Yes Hashirama uses his tech, but Madara does other things to stop that as well.



> By saying he is "on par with kyuubi" you are saying what? that he has the same dc, durability, stamina? no? then what? only that he can seal him? Thats the worst way to explain on par ever.



Comparable power in general. Not quite is destructive and durable, but not insignificant in comparison at all.

Uh, yeah thats my point. If it was just sealing he wouldn't be on par. You don't see Yamato being said to be on par with the Kyuubi, heck, you don't see him sealing the full Kyuubi either.



> Striking and throwing are different.



Not enough to matter in this fight. Throwing is pretty comparable to a strike too.



> Its like 70 times bigger than the original calc.


I'll look, but even if Konoha was huge and we overestimated the depth and width of the crater, I don't see how it is country level. Calc's also arent everything in verse. I think the portrayal is pretty well on the side of PS and Wood Jutsu. I just don't want to get into the calc until I reply to the post, but maybe I will have too.



> It fits though, Tsunade one shot Madara with a punch. Madara feels the need to block raikage. V2 Bee shits on A4 in power.



Tsunade is Bjuu level and is stronger than the Raikage. It also makes sense for Madara to be very durable considering his status. It makes sense that Madara would be extremely durable. If you think Lee is that weak it doesn't make sense that he would do what he did.

Madara and Hashirama also went H2H with each other, and are both quite strong themselves. Madara was able to literally punch away the Bjuu.

Madara was also kinda fucking with the Kage, trying to make them think they had a chance when he could have ended it at pretty much any moment.

Nagato also used Preta on Bee so it is debatable if he tanked the Lariat straight up. He was also being harmed by Amaterasu and Itachi's Susanoo.

I don't think this is really the most important point though, it was just something to bring up.



> Asura path faces. And any summon he uses.


Faces?

Summons are negged by Wood Jutsu.


Edit: I haven't read all of the posts you guys have made after this one. However, I say that you said that Hashirama can fight on par with Kyuubi bar TBB at least, even if I disagree, that means you are saying that Hashirama should be able to overcome the power of CT, though that was a weaker CT, it was also a much weaker Kyuubi. And that is only _base _Hashirama.


----------



## Esano (Feb 8, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> He can and I stated why, so why would I accept it? All you've said is that he can't while saying "_that's no how Bansho Tenin works"_ with no elaboration whatsoever.



At the risk of coming off a bit rude like he has been,

I think it's pretty fucked up that he tells us "That isn't how BT works" and that we are "dishonest" for saying Madara counters, when he is the one saying "BT Paralyzes you" even though Kakashi could pull out a freaking chain and throw it, and Naruto was also able to counter Deva multiple times.

Madara should be able to counter especially considering he used Susanoo while literally being sealed. More than once.



> No. But I don't buy that you're so dense that you think it was simply having tails and not the act of using those tails to anchor itself to the ground that let KN6 counter Shinra Tensei. That was the same tactic Tsunade intended to employ by putting chakra to her feet, and that's something Madara can do with his Susano'o.



Even if it was the tails, which I do remember him doing at least once, that STILL wouldn't mean Madara and Hashirama cannot counter. They don't have _tails _but they do have constructs. 

For example, Madara could dig his sword into the ground, or could dig his arms or legs into the ground. Hashirama should be able to do something similar. Literally rooting himself.

Madara and Hashirama also have the ability to take Nagato out in return, in much simpler ways.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 8, 2019)

Esano said:


> Kinda hard too say, it is a bit vague. The body could have morphed into the head though, that seems to make the most sense. Why would the head just change shape?
> 
> Either way it shows Hashirama can block Bjuudama and the Databook states that even Base Hashi is on par with the Kyuubi.


lol now you are just being difficult. It says straight up that its head is what morphs. We know that for sure, especially since Hashirama is super low to the ground afterwards. In order for that to happen in your theory is the wood would have to condense down, when has that ever happened?
Regardless, lesser attacks broke the sage wood so it doesn't mater anyway.



Esano said:


> My pain is greater than yours!
> Madara was born into the OP! Nagato merely ADOPTED IT!


One does not simply adopt the OP. 
Search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true!



Esano said:


> I disagree. Kyuubi doesn't look unharmed to me.
> 
> Even if you want to make a comparison to a scared dog, that just further proves Hashirama's portrayal as being above it.


come on man, Kyuubi was hit by Rasenshuiken and was just fine, getting grabbed is damaging? how? 




Esano said:


> Comparable power in general. Not quite is destructive and durable, but not insignificant in comparison at all.


Vastly different power scale. Hashirama is so low compared to what Kyuubi is capable of.


Esano said:


> Uh, yeah thats my point. If it was just sealing he wouldn't be on par. You don't see Yamato being said to be on par with the Kyuubi, heck, you don't see him sealing the full Kyuubi either.


You kinda sealed your fate here on this one. Yamato is a great example. Yamato is not compared to Kyuubi, But the standards in this situation are the same. Both are only able to BEAT the kyuubi/KN4 via sealing. But that doesn't mean they are comparable. Yamato is also probably faster than the essentially immobile KN4. Yamatos Mokuton is stronger than KN4. Just like Mokujin is stronger than Kuramas base power. It is fast enough to catch KN4 so Yamato is on par with KN4? that is the logic you are using.



Esano said:


> Not enough to matter in this fight. Throwing is pretty comparable to a strike too.


The strength difference is tremendous. Madara is weaker than A4, Bee is stronger than A4. Nagata is casually stronger than Bee. 
Nagato>>>Bee>A4>Madara.



Esano said:


> I'll look, but even if Konoha was huge and we overestimated the depth and width of the crater, I don't see how it is country level. Calc's also arent everything in verse. I think the portrayal is pretty well on the side of PS and Wood Jutsu. I just don't want to get into the calc until I reply to the post, but maybe I will have too.


It isnt country level, it is large island level. Still beyond the lesser TBB and above Kyuubis uncharged TBB. and the crater isnt an over estimation, Ninj on the rim couldnt even see Naruto and needed a hyuga to relay events.


Esano said:


> Tsunade is Bjuu level and is stronger than the Raikage. It also makes sense for Madara to be very durable considering his status. It makes sense that Madara would be extremely durable. If you think Lee is that weak it doesn't make sense that he would do what he did.


I didnt say lee was weak, just weaker than a v2 Bee.



Esano said:


> Madara and Hashirama also went H2H with each other, and are both quite strong themselves. Madara was able to literally punch away the Bjuu.


Still nothing to Asura which rips the arms off of Sage mode users.



Esano said:


> Madara was also kinda fucking with the Kage, trying to make them think they had a chance when he could have ended it at pretty much any moment.


kind of, but he was legitimately at risk a bunch of times.


Esano said:


> Nagato also used Preta on Bee so it is debatable if he tanked the Lariat straight up. He was also being harmed by Amaterasu and Itachi's Susanoo.


He only used Preta AFTER he was hit, so he toock the force of the attack first.
He was barely harmbed by susano that was on him for a long ass time. 



Esano said:


> Faces?


Full asura mode gives you 3 faces.
mangaplus


Esano said:


> Summons are negged by Wood Jutsu.


 Yes, but they still have eyes.



Esano said:


> Edit: I haven't read all of the posts you guys have made after this one. However, I say that you said that Hashirama can fight on par with Kyuubi bar TBB at least, even if I disagree, that means you are saying that Hashirama should be able to overcome the power of CT, though that was a weaker CT, it was also a much weaker Kyuubi. And that is only _base _Hashirama.


Mountain chunks crashing on CT core>>>>>>>>>SS punches. He You are literally saying the CT cannot handle a weaker version of what it itself does.


----------



## Esano (Feb 8, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> lol now you are just being difficult. It says straight up that its head is what morphs. We know that for sure, especially since Hashirama is super low to the ground afterwards. In order for that to happen in your theory is the wood would have to condense down, when has that ever happened?
> Regardless, lesser attacks broke the sage wood so it doesn't mater anyway.



Well, you think it was destroyed, but that wasn't necessarily shown either. The Manga says that it morphed, and becomes a more defensive Jutsu. So why does it not make sense that he morphed body to a more condensed version? Why wouldn't that be possible? It makes sense.

I don't really have to be difficult, the Databook is pretty clear in saying it is on par with the Kyuubi, and it blocked the attack, Head or not.



> One does not simply adopt the OP.
> Search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true!



" You will realize that stolen eyes don't compare to the power of the founders"
*waves hand*



> come on man, Kyuubi was hit by Rasenshuiken and was just fine, getting grabbed is damaging? how?



Eh, he was hurt somewhat by sage Naruto. And Hashirama is > Naruto FRS.




> Vastly different power scale. Hashirama is so low compared to what Kyuubi is capable of.



The databook and feats disagree.



> You kinda sealed your fate here on this one. Yamato is a great example. Yamato is not compared to Kyuubi, But the standards in this situation are the same. Both are only able to BEAT the kyuubi/KN4 via sealing. But that doesn't mean they are comparable. Yamato is also probably faster than the essentially immobile KN4. Yamatos Mokuton is stronger than KN4. Just like Mokujin is stronger than Kuramas base power. It is fast enough to catch KN4 so Yamato is on par with KN4? that is the logic you are using.



No, the logic I am using is no matter how much Yamato wants to, he isn't going to seal the full Kyuubi. Hashirama has the power to back up his sealings. He is much more powerful than Yamato. If Hashirama couldn't hurt the Kyuubi, then he wouldn't be able to seal the Kyuubi, and every single other Bjuu as well. It isn't the same. Yamato didn't use his Jutsu to physically toss around and tank attacks from Naruto.



> The strength difference is tremendous. Madara is weaker than A4, Bee is stronger than A4. Nagata is casually stronger than Bee.
> Nagato>>>Bee>A4>Madara.



Eh, Durability=/=Strength, and I'm not sure he tanked the Lariat 100% to begin with. Best Nagato showed was grabbing an untransformed Bee with his physically strongest attack. Which, while impressive, doesn't mean he is stronger than Sage Mode Hashirama, considering how strong Senju are said to be on top of the power of Sage Mode. Especially when you have Madara showing he can do stuff like Physically fuck with the Bjuu.




> It isnt country level, it is large island level. Still beyond the lesser TBB and above Kyuubis uncharged TBB. and the crater isnt an over estimation, Ninj on the rim couldnt even see Naruto and needed a hyuga to relay events.
> I didnt say lee was weak, just weaker than a v2 Bee.




Ah, I though you were claiming it was country level somewhere. I'm not sure what a Kyuubi uncharged Bjuudama was, I'm pretty sure the one he used in the fight was Large Island level as well, and there are other feats, such as the Aura tanking Bjuu threatening attacks, The Meteor, The Storm, Holding down the Juubi, the Hokage barrier, scaling from Deidara, scaling from Obito, etc to show that Madara and Hashi are also in that range.

Not to mention hype such as Hashirama only admiting he is beat once Juubito shows up, and Madara stating that not even the Bjuu can step up to his Perfect Susanoo. Or Obito being more scared of Madara than the entire Akatsuki.

In fact it is pretty well accepted that they are in the country range. You are arguing against a lot more than just me here.

The crater isn't small, of course, it was a large ass part of the village. I just didn't think it was country level. Considering the amount of rock which was fragmented/pulverized, CST being Island does make some sense.



> Still nothing to Asura which rips the arms off of Sage mode users.



Why isn't it comparable? Also did it to a weakened Sage and a sage much weaker than Hashirama.

Asura was also held down by Chouji and his Dad 

Plus Jiraya would have won if he knew the truth as per canon 



> kind of, but he was legitimately at risk a bunch of times.
> He only used Preta AFTER he was hit, so he toock the force of the attack first.
> He was barely harmbed by susano that was on him for a long ass time.


I might have to go to the panel for that one.
What do you mean by saying he was barely harmed by Susanoo which was on him a long time?
I really don't think he can tank attacks from Madara or Hashirama regardless.



> Full asura mode gives you 3 faces.
> mangaplus
> Yes, but they still have eyes.



Yeah I totally forgot we were talking about the eye thing here. Not the most useful eyes if they are all immobile though. Kinda defeats the purpose tbh.



> Mountain chunks crashing on CT core>>>>>>>>>SS punches. He You are literally saying the CT cannot handle a weaker version of what it itself does.



I don't see how mountains being pulled into the core is above Perfect Susanoo or Hashirama full on attacks. Even SM Naruto and Jiraya have mountain level attacks. I'm pretty sure most would consider Hashi and Mads attacks as stronger than the attack that destroyed the Core in the war.


----------



## Kagutsutchi (Feb 8, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> If he can run away, then he can run away, use PS, and swing it in Nagato's general direction. Not that running from someone who has Bansho Tenin is ever gonna work.


If he does that, nagato absorbs the chakra sword. And don't come with that shockwave nonsense, nagato already withstood shinra tensei + bijuudama consecutively on panel.




> Nothing. But it's not like that achieves anything. PS still forms and whatever Nagato attacked him with would have been tanked by the still forming PS.


Then nagato absorbs the PS as it forms.




> How exactly is a cripple hopping on a structure practically the size of a mountain?


This cripple is fully healed in the OP, can fly with asura or deva path, use the bird or invisible chameleon to get to Ps and what not. And from there, preta path absorbs all the chakra of susanoo.



> If Madara already has PS out, why wouldn't he simply swing the blade in Nagato's general direction instead of waiting for him to get close?


I said nagato could jump on it as it forms. Nevertheless, nagato still has preta path to absorb whatever madara throws at him, and can return that chakra in the form of a shinra tensei. Madara is the only one who loses here boi.


----------



## Blu-ray (Feb 8, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> If he does that, nagato absorbs the chakra sword.


How is he gonna absorb something he doesn't have direct contact with?



> And don't come with that shockwave nonsense, nagato already withstood shinra tensei + bijuudama consecutively on panel.


Do you mean Deva Path, because that thing got put down by a base Rasengan. It wasn't directly hit by KN6's Bijuudama and its Shinra Tensei isn't even remotely close to a PS swing.



> Then nagato absorbs the PS as it forms.


Again, how? It literally cannot absorb it unless Nagato is literally touching it.



> This cripple is fully healed in the OP,


He was rejuvenated against Itachi, Bee and Naruto, and still had poor mobility.



> can fly with asura or deva path, use the bird or invisible chameleon to get to Ps and what not. And from there, preta path absorbs all the chakra of susanoo.


Unless the chameleon can hide it's chakra, Madara would see it with the Sharingan, and any other approach would just have Madara swing the sword in his general direction before he even reaches him.



> I said nagato could jump on it as it forms.


It's still a massive as fuck structure even while forming. I just can't picture the dude casually jumping on top of that, let alone before it simply swats him away with a casual swing.



> Nevertheless, nagato still has preta path to absorb whatever madara throws at him, and can return that chakra in the form of a shinra tensei.


He cannot absorb PS shockwaves or the Kyuubi's attacks, and that's gonna be the majority of what Madara uses here.



> Madara is the only one who loses here boi.


It's made pretty damn clear that anyone short of Hashirama can't do it, and the guy who's paths lost to Naruto and who himself lost to KCM Naruto, Itachi and Bee doesn't strike me as being on the level.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 8, 2019)

Esano said:


> Well, you think it was destroyed, but that wasn't necessarily shown either. The Manga says that it morphed, and becomes a more defensive Jutsu. So why does it not make sense that he morphed body to a more condensed version? Why wouldn't that be possible? It makes sense.
> 
> I don't really have to be difficult, the Databook is pretty clear in saying it is on par with the Kyuubi, and it blocked the attack, Head or not.


It doesnt make sense because it literally says HEAD. not BODY or ENTIRE THING.



Esano said:


> " You will realize that stolen eyes don't compare to the power of the founders"
> *waves hand*


....Jedi mind tricks do not work on me, im a Nagatodarian!



Esano said:


> Eh, he was hurt somewhat by sage Naruto. And Hashirama is > Naruto FRS.


Hashirama is, yes, a grab? no.


Esano said:


> The databook and feats disagree.


 WHAT? Where? what jutsu does hashirama have that compares to even a fraction of a charged Bijuudama?



Esano said:


> No, the logic I am using is no matter how much Yamato wants to, he isn't going to seal the full Kyuubi. Hashirama has the power to back up his sealings. He is much more powerful than Yamato. If Hashirama couldn't hurt the Kyuubi, then he wouldn't be able to seal the Kyuubi, and every single other Bjuu as well. It isn't the same. Yamato didn't use his Jutsu to physically toss around and tank attacks from Naruto.


Im talking about yamato in comparison to Kn4, not full kyuubi.

also, who ever said you need to hurt someone to be able to seal them? That is never said or implied ever. ever.



Esano said:


> Eh, Durability=/=Strength, and I'm not sure he tanked the Lariat 100% to begin with. Best Nagato showed was grabbing an untransformed Bee with his physically strongest attack. Which, while impressive, doesn't mean he is stronger than Sage Mode Hashirama, considering how strong Senju are said to be on top of the power of Sage Mode. Especially when you have Madara showing he can do stuff like Physically fuck with the Bjuu.


If Madara is = Sage Hashirama, then yes, nagato is stronger and more durable. He survived hits from stronger people. Bee is far stronger and faster than A4 who madara had to use susano to properly defend against



Esano said:


> Ah, I though you were claiming it was country level somewhere. I'm not sure what a Kyuubi uncharged Bjuudama was, I'm pretty sure the one he used in the fight was Large Island level as well, and there are other feats, such as the Aura tanking Bjuu threatening attacks, The Meteor, The Storm, Holding down the Juubi, the Hokage barrier, scaling from Deidara, scaling from Obito, etc to show that Madara and Hashi are also in that range.


Calcs
Madara slash 200 MT
Sage FRS 216 MT
lesser TBB 3.8 GT
Kyuubi TBB like 9 GT
CST 143 GT
IIRC there is a 6 TT juubidama calc, not sure.
CT 55 TT

Madara are absolutely nowhere the same level. Not even close.  
There is a crazy stupid high end Kyuubi TBB calc that is in the tera ton range, but like i said before that assumes the mountains are literally 200+ km high. That would put the top half of them into space! that makes abso lutely no sense at all and would just boost other calcs that use mountains anyway. 
The Chibaku Tensei calc uses the tree hill paired with scaling from konans tree. with the mountain only being 4km, not a high end at all.



Esano said:


> Not to mention hype such as Hashirama only admiting he is beat once Juubito shows up, and Madara stating that not even the Bjuu can step up to his Perfect Susanoo. Or Obito being more scared of Madara than the entire Akatsuki.


Hashirama doesnt know what anyone on that entire battlefield is capable of except  for the 2 seconds he watched them fight. He doesnt know that Gai in 8th gate would literally eat him alive and rape him so hard Hashi cells turn into Gai cells and every chacter who has hashi cells suddenly grows a bowl cut and thick ass eyebrows. We know that Gai is stronger than Hashirama so why are you saying that Hashiramas statement holds any merit whatsoever? He is proven wrong with that example alone. He doesn't know who Nagato is, he doesnt know what Hiruzen is capable of, he has never met A3 or Itachi or blah blah blah. He has absolutely no idea what the world has done since he was Kage. how is he a valid source? 



Esano said:


> In fact it is pretty well accepted that they are in the country range. You are arguing against a lot more than just me here.


It is inaccurately argued that, Kyuubis TBB is not country level. His charged one is. not his basic one. so scaling PS taking a different kind of attack than SS and saying they scale to each other is NOT how it works. 


Esano said:


> The crater isn't small, of course, it was a large ass part of the village. I just didn't think it was country level. Considering the amount of rock which was fragmented/pulverized, CST being Island does make some sense.


Yes, but look at SS in comparison, EVEN if you assume PS and Kyuubi blocked 999 of the SS 1000 punches and only 1 punch hit the ground, The VotE crater is literally a penny to the CST's $1000. even if you assume the SS hits with enough force to make the VotE in 1 punch and multiply it by 1000, it STILL is no where near CST. Not even close.


Esano said:


> Why isn't it comparable? Also did it to a weakened Sage and a sage much weaker than Hashirama.


he did it to a weakER sage, not a weakENED  sage. Jiraiya still has the force of a sage. He still blasted the summon back, Even when naruto just began his sage training he lifted giant stone statues with no diff. And hashirama has no strength feats whatso ever, he scales to Madara who isnt as strong as SM Naruto.


Esano said:


> Asura was also held down by Chouji and his Dad


No, Asura was punched by a giant choza arm and wasnt even able to defend. Choza is also top tier in power.



Esano said:


> Plus Jiraya would have won if he knew the truth as per canon


Nope, he would have won if he got off frog song on all 6 pain. Then he would have died to Nagato himself. Jiraiya was surpassed by sage naruto and Sage naruto got an unholy ass whooping from a weakened pain


Esano said:


> I might have to go to the panel for that one.
> What do you mean by saying he was barely harmed by Susanoo which was on him a long time?
> I really don't think he can tank attacks from Madara or Hashirama regardless.


Sorry, i meant amaterasu
He could tank their punches, not their jutsu, but he wouldnt need to tank their jutsu.


Esano said:


> Yeah I totally forgot we were talking about the eye thing here. Not the most useful eyes if they are all immobile though. Kinda defeats the purpose tbh.


 They are not immobile, also an extra 120 degrees of view is amazingly beneficial 



Esano said:


> I don't see how mountains being pulled into the core is above Perfect Susanoo or Hashirama full on attacks. Even SM Naruto and Jiraya have mountain level attacks. I'm pretty sure most would consider Hashi and Mads attacks as stronger than the attack that destroyed the Core in the war.


Mountains falling at free fall speed is FAR above their attacks. Madaras meteor is 190 meters. These mountain chunks are fuckin Kilometers tall. and there is countless amounts of them. Imagine if madara used like 3000 meteors at 1 time, yeah, THAT is what a full CT is. and im pretty sure i super low balled that too.

*just looked.*
Assuming the Madara meteor is 190 meters tall AND wide. its volume is 3.59×10^6 cubic meters
Chibaku tenseis is .........1.24×10^14 cubic meters.........thats what, like over a million times the material? It is not comparable, man. In calculation or portrayal. Nagato was the only character to be nerfed between him and the founders. They needed a BUFF to reach his nerfed level. If he was never hit by the most evil jutsu ever and still had his legs and proper speed, he would be nearly invincible. The databook and Manga literally describe Pain as invincible several times. That is incredible portrayal. Obito considerd him the 3rd SOSP, that is a group that includes Madara, so how is he not on the founders level?

You want to use the hashirama said no one was stronger until juubito. Well Naruto never said Anything was bigger than Nagatos CT till Juubi madaras Madaras CT. I cant say that makes nagato stronger than all that came before Madara because it is a direct comparison between 2 people, not the whole world.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 9, 2019)

Esano said:


> How did Naruto counter it then?



He used a jutsu which hardly required focus: chakra arms. 



> I actually almost didn't mention Genjutsu, you have a pretty good point here. I'll concede that. Though people have failed to use Genjutsu in an opportunity where they should have, and Nagato hasn't actually shown resistance as far as I remember. His paths certainly didn't.



Itachi uses Genjutsu whenever he can, yet in this instance chose not to. That's telling.



> What is his max capacity then? We never really see him go all out. The Deva path has been shown to be counterable the times we have seen it. Naruto was able to counter BT and ST, 50% Kn08 was able to counter CT, and Bee+Itachi+KCM were able to counter CT as well. Now yes, those were not "full power" Nagato, but we didn't really get to see "full power" Nagato for much time.
> 
> Why would the Deva path not be able to be overpowered? It is literally force.



On panel, Deva's max capacity would be CST. Up next would be Deva when he's closer to Nagato, being closer to Nagato means more power hence why he was able to use CT after getting closer. 

Naruto didn't counter BT until the war arc for the reasons I mentioned. ST, again Nagato was weakening so that reflected on Pain (why else would a corpse be getting exhausted; like how a corpse, Animal Path, suddenly dropped). KN8 stopped a form of CT, it didn't overcome it; Nagato was too drained to maintain it. As you mentioned, those aren't full power Nagato... but ITT we have to speculate on a full power Nagato.



Kai said:


> That was Nagato becoming emaciated by using the Gedo Mazo. This is Nagato getting life taxed by using the strongest Six Path techniques, which has absolutely nothing to do with chakra exhaustion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Everything you cited has to do with chakra exhaustion-- by his standards, Nagato didn't have much chakra. He was so deprived that he was emaciated. 

Mega Shinra Tensei... Chibaku Tensei... Enlarging Chibaki Tensei... WHILE feeding chakra to control Pain... that's a lot of chakra. And we've known for a while using too much chakra can risk the user's life. That's what we saw here. If Nagato wasn't emaciated due to lacking enough chakra in your panels, this would be a different story. 

Basically, this argument would have held if Nagato never restored his chakra reserves to their peak when he absorbed Bee's chakra. 




> You say "if we look at the facts we have" and then proceed to spill your bias all over the rest of the response
> 
> Iff Nagato's techniques are faster and stronger than Pain, it makes no sense he is spending less chakra for the same stronger and faster techniques. You're legit trying to convince us he's expelling more chakra to Pain yet producing weaker jutsu?



You can't really be talking about spilling bias when you're choosing to ignore the key fact (Nagato's appearance after absorbing Bee's chakra and what it means) to keep running with your misinformed stance. 

Are you trying to suggest feeding chakra to Pain isn't incredibly taxing? Let's put it for you another way, the whole exchange with Obito+Pain and the Masters-Jinchuriki revealed to us that controlling Pain is draining enough while suggesting granting each body Rinnegan powers is even more draining. So yes, reduced quality is the price Nagato paid for using Pain. Your biggest clue should have been how Deva's output improved the closer it got to Nagato.

Doesn't matter how you slice the cake. How did Nagato end up in that state? If you want to say whether it was chakra exhaustion or he was simply emaciated, it was the Rinnegan which put him in that state. And it was pushing the Rinnegan to its limits which caused his internal bleeding and shortening his lifespan.



> Also, Nagato benefited the most from being an Edo Tensei because he didn't have to face any of the Rinnegan's detrimental effects, which is supported by the fact Itachi could use his Mangekyo Sharingan without any detrimental effects.



Irrelevant because the detrimental effects of the Rinnegan you cited do not exist. Itachi's effects, apart from Susanoo sucking the user's life force (which seemed to hardly matter in battle for a healthy Uchiha)... was chakra related. That's an issue with Itachi's own chakra capacity, not the MS. If you're referencing blindness, then through Sasuke you know how long that takes i.e. it isn't relevant.



> Nagato stated he would have to make a bigger one, thus chakra exhaustion is not implied. He was wasting his life away by employing these map rearranging techniques. His body couldn't hold out on the physical punishment.



Compare Nagato's physical state in the Pain arc to when he absorbed a lot of chakra from Bee. That tells you everything; I'd recommend looking at DB3 to see how Preta works too.



> Using Pain was noted to require a considerable amount of chakra when the pain paths were Five Bijus. I'd like you to prove otherwise.



Read the whole exchange, then get back to me.



Blu-ray said:


> Since when has Bansho Tenin been this nigh uncounterable technique? Kakashi's clone had enough time to whip out a chain and anchor itself despite never seeing the technique before. Madara is going to have time to act, and would have no issue using Susano'o to anchor himself.



A lot of people use Kakashi as an example of how BT can be countered, that isn't representative for a number of reasons:

1. He quickly couldn't do anything when Deva upped the power; no shinobi could since e.g. Sage Mode Naruto.

2. That was a Deva Path who was far from Nagato. Through CT we know the closer a Path is to Nagato, the more potent their power.

3. Nagato didn't exactly have his full reserves if you compare his physical state to when he absorbed Bee's chakra.

4. The one time Naruto did counter Nagato's BT, it was when he used a jutsu which hardly required any focus. 

#3 is relevant considering ITT Nagato would have his full reserves. 

Susanoo isn't really worth mentioning here as the Uchiha bros vs Kabuto showed it requires focus. Unlike with White Rage, Madara will be pulled, and as Gaara showed, Madara can be pulled out of Susanoo. The best part of about BT, like Shinra Tensei, the target won't see it coming. Especially when the Rinnegan user isn't limited to a single power.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Feb 9, 2019)

Its PS or bust ffor Madara Uchiha ITT


----------



## X III (Feb 10, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> "By given chakra to make wood (wood release) grow faster,to take shape into very big/gigantic mokujin. The giant excels in defense and offense,and has strong physical attacks.During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails. *Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness.* "
> 
> What are you talking about?


I'll admit I was wrong here, but you haven't proven Mokujin was broken.



kokodeshide said:


> You trolling here?


You can't talk about trolling while claiming mobile Nagato is slightly below Juubi Jin level.



kokodeshide said:


> Grabbing kyuubi hurts him??????is he less durable than a small dog?


If you grab and squeeze a mouse, it will hurt it.



kokodeshide said:


> pure PHYSICAL power sure.


Pure power. 



kokodeshide said:


> Which is absolutely pathetic in comparison to nagatos and any bijuus capabilities. It is a 200 megaton feat. Lesser bijuu TBB are 3.8 gigatons.


Read what I'm quoting, please. This is in response to Itachi's Susano'o being impressive.



kokodeshide said:


> That means it isn't a piercing move.


It evidently is. It's a sharp pointing finger.



kokodeshide said:


> Are you implying the full kyuubi has less defense than half of himself?


No, I'm implying that BM Chakra Avatar was injured and only recovered because he was a Chakra Avatar, hence endurance.



kokodeshide said:


> That is pure bias then because it obviously isnt, not does it even matter as the kyuubi is a mindless beast who cant control his power anyway.


It's not biased. It's blatantly what's written in the databook. 

Mindless or not, the Kyuubi's overall power is still the same, and that's what Mokujin is equal to.



kokodeshide said:


> What are you even talking about. Being next to him is portrayal of what? location?


Perfect Susano'o being used alongside Kurama of all Bijuu, on three separate occasions, is portrayal. 



kokodeshide said:


> cool, v4 susano<PS
> uncharged TBB<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Charged TBB.


Based on nothing.



kokodeshide said:


> It's equal to a FRS, which hit Kyuubi who shrugged it off like a boss, while at 50 percent.


Equal to FRS on what account? 

Also, the FRS did do damage to Kurama.



kokodeshide said:


> Simple mistake, changes nothing, It was lava that melted part of Madaras susano. So son goku instead of Saiken. But her acid still melted Sasukes and Durability has no meaning to acid.


That's not what's dishonest. What's dishonest is the fact you're comparing Perfect Susano'o to a Ribcage.

I don't even know why acid is being mentioned here. If durability means nothing, then it doesn't matter. You could simply argue even Kurama would get overcome by acid.



kokodeshide said:


> a single blast is not the same as a focused barrage.


Just as how a shockwave isn't the same as a real swing.



kokodeshide said:


> And could a TB take a slash, surely, 50 percent of kyuubi could


50% Kurama isn't a normal Bijuu in terms of power, and 50% Kurama has never taken a slash.



kokodeshide said:


> Gyuuki took his own blast up close.


Other Tailed Beasts have lost to weaker attacks, so Gyuki is separate from the rest.



kokodeshide said:


> None of the bijuu lost to anything. They were all still standing, Naruto took the stakes out of them.


I'm not referring to that fight. 

1. Shukaku was having trouble with Gamabunta.
2. Matatabi was having trouble with Kakuzu and Hidan.
3. Isobu lost to a single explosion.



kokodeshide said:


> *Spoiler*:
> Gai is in the page before doing his pinky toe attack.
> What are you talking about? This is like the 3rd time i have had to say this, i mean no disrespect but, are you trolling right now?


I will admit that I was wrong there, but it doesn't change anything. Getting knocked back by the Bee and KCM Naruto only proves Kurama would make short work of him.



kokodeshide said:


> Haha, The mazo had no Bijuus in it, how could it move? It needed a source of life. Once it had Bijuu it could move.


If that were the case, Nagato would have removed the rods from himself after he got a Bijuu for the Mazo.

The Mazo was also able to move before it pierced Nagato.



kokodeshide said:


> He wouldnt be. Not like it would be a huge problem anyway.


Nagato isn't fighting Madara while he has rods in his back, unless you aim to tell me Nagato is stronger than EMS Madara and thereby stronger than Pain as well, in which case he would have no need to use Pain in battle. That's blatantly nonsensical.



kokodeshide said:


> Cool, but by saying they are equal and NOT making the distiction clear everytime it is just dishonest.


It's not dishonest, because I made it apparent that's what I thought of them and being equal to somebody doesn't mean you have the same output.



kokodeshide said:


> Because thats what the manga shows. Mokujin failed to even survive the TBB.


Which you still haven't proven.

Do you think Mokujin and Shinsuusenju both died after suppressing Kurama?



kokodeshide said:


> so no matter what, mokujin loses to kurama without sealing.


Mokujin is stronger than Kurama with sealing, then the only thing the statement can mean is that Mokujin is equal to Kurama without sealing.



kokodeshide said:


> So a taijutsu fight with kakashi should exclude sharingan because it isn't genetically his....?


Semantics game + manipulating what I said.



kokodeshide said:


> Seriously, a body modification jutsu like the Akimichis or Gates or Kimimaros or Orochimarus or CS2 or the hozuki clan, etc, are NOT the same thing as a chakra construct that exists separately from you.


They're both enhancements which can be used for strength. 



kokodeshide said:


> Cool beans, i'd say the slight issue of missing a single river is a oversight but even still. That is not how the calc was done anyway. This is the accepted size of konoha.


Missing the river and gates, apparently.

Mind showing me the calc with a link?


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 10, 2019)

Nagato can deal with anything Madara throws at him and pressure him with superior firepower until Madara uses Perfect Susanoo or Kyuubi.

Once he does this, especially summoning Kyuubi because it looks like the first thing he does, especially against the Rinnegan, Nagato is not handling all that.


----------



## MajinBuu (Feb 10, 2019)

Madara's Perfect Susano'o can't be used a lot of time. Nagato will kill him, he has too many tricks to counter Madara's Arsenal (Like Geddo mazzo (Kurama will be sealed) Shinra Tensei, Summons, Bancho tennin, Asura patch, Chibaku Tensei and more)


----------



## Kagutsutchi (Feb 10, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> How is he gonna absorb something he doesn't have direct contact with?


By making direct contact with it.




> Do you mean Deva Path, because that thing got put down by a base Rasengan.


After losing a helluva lot of chakra. Moot point. At least it ain't like madara, who was stabbed by black zetsu in his strongest form.



> It wasn't directly hit by KN6's Bijuudama and its Shinra Tensei isn't even remotely close to a PS swing.


It wasn't directly hit by KN6's bijuudama, it just happened to be in the blast crater, yeah right. Same PS swing can also be dodged. I never really got any good speed feats from that thing anyway.




> Again, how? It literally cannot absorb it unless Nagato is literally touching it.


Which he will have no problem with, seeing as he could absorb senpo odama rasengan on contact and negate the force behind it.




> He was rejuvenated against Itachi, Bee and Naruto, and still had poor mobility.


I concede, he still has his summons.




> Unless the chameleon can hide it's chakra, Madara would see it with the Sharingan, and any other approach would just have Madara swing the sword in his general direction before he even reaches him.


And nagato can still absorb the sword, even as it touches him.




> It's still a massive as fuck structure even while forming. I just can't picture the dude casually jumping on top of that, let alone before it simply swats him away with a casual swing.


Why can't he just jump on the legs and start absorbing from there?




> He cannot absorb PS shockwaves or the Kyuubi's attacks, and that's gonna be the majority of what Madara uses here.


Because madara uses shockwaves for most of his arsenal. Yeah, apart from the opening move with PS, I don't recall madara using shockwaves as a go to move. On top of this, Nagato already absorbed a mountain busting rasengan from jiraiya easily, without experiencing a shockwave. So he absorbs PS attacks until madara summons kyuubi, afterwhich he frees the bijuu with chakra rods.




> It's made pretty damn clear that anyone short of Hashirama can't do it,


Same hashirama died in fist shinobi world war, an exponentially more powerful madara was defeated by black zetsu, the war kage killed him if not for his edo status. So, it's pretty damn clear that anyone who isn't hashirama and is powerful enough can do it.



> and the guy who's paths lost to Naruto


Because:

He Leveled a whole village and losing his most powerful path for minutes
His opponent had intel plus backup
He had senjutsu
He went berserk when pain had already won and turned KN6 while pain was weakened
Remove the first and last part and pain destroys naruto.



> and who himself lost to KCM Naruto, Itachi and Bee doesn't strike me as being on the level.


Yeah, the guy who lost to Black zetsu while he was godlike doesn't really strike me as strong.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Feb 10, 2019)

Kabuto literally stated Madara was his strongest Edo Tensei , he could barely walk and had to rely on the Paths of Pain , he got taken out by the combo of Naruto’s clone and Itachi’s Totsuka now you expect him to stand a chance against Perfect Susanoo lol , there is literally nothing he can do to Madara once Ps comes out .


----------



## Cad Bane (Feb 10, 2019)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> .
> 
> Nagato Uzumaki vs. Madara Uchiha
> 
> ...


Nagato is too haxxed. Most of Madara's jutsu are absorbed, Susanoo could potentially be absorbed, plus Chibaku Tensei, and other Deva Path powers. Rinnegan > EMS.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 10, 2019)

X III said:


> I'll admit I was wrong here, but you haven't proven Mokujin was broken.


First off, the mokujin is absolutly gone. You would have to prove it is still there.
We know Mokujin is about as tall as Kyuubi, why then is hashirama on the ground after the blast?



X III said:


> You can't talk about trolling while claiming mobile Nagato is slightly below Juubi Jin level.


Show me where I said that please.



X III said:


> If you grab and squeeze a mouse, it will hurt it.


A mouse that can tank TBB and some of the SS gets damages by being grabbed? Kuramas durability is >Gyuukis. so kurama has at least the durability of Gyuuki, meaning a simple grab isn't hurting him at all. Him roaring is not proof of pain at all.



X III said:


> Pure power.


No, cause it was destroyed by his weakest TBB.


X III said:


> Read what I'm quoting, please. This is in response to Itachi's Susano'o being impressive.


"And Perfect Susano'o could cut mountain tops with shockwaves. It's also stated it can cut through steel with no issue." the first part of that clearly references madara, correct? Telling me to read what you said lol



X III said:


> It evidently is. It's a sharp pointing finger.


 Sharp? What? a hand is sharp? is your hand sharp? No? so how is a giant one sharp??????? It didnt cleanly cut the ground OR his arm so it wasn't sharp at all.



X III said:


> No, I'm implying that BM Chakra Avatar was injured and only recovered because he was a Chakra Avatar, hence endurance.


Recovery is NOT durability, you have to be durable enough to SURVIVE the attack to recover from it.


X III said:


> It's not biased. It's blatantly what's written in the databook.
> 
> Mindless or not, the Kyuubi's overall power is still the same, and that's what Mokujin is equal to.


Your definition of power is fucked up then. Because power is not absolute in manga. the sannin are depicted as equals, at least in part one, barring the edo. There are people orochimaru can beat thats tsunade cant and vice versa.



X III said:


> Perfect Susano'o being used alongside Kurama of all Bijuu, on three separate occasions, is portrayal.


Portrayal of what?
the rest of the rookie 9 were with team 7, is that portrayal that they are equal? they did a combo attack with team 7, does that make them equal?


X III said:


> Based on nothing.


Are you fuckin serious? A charged TBB is equal to a uncharged TBB? Are you seriously debating that.


X III said:


> Equal to FRS on what account?
> 
> Also, the FRS did do damage to Kurama.


First off, they are calced as equal, second, FRS cut through miles and miles of mountain chunks with no problem.

FRS did jack shit to kyuubi. He was hit AND had his chakra stolen and STILL didnt have a scratch on him and used a TBB right after.



X III said:


> That's not what's dishonest. What's dishonest is the fact you're comparing Perfect Susano'o to a Ribcage.
> 
> I don't even know why acid is being mentioned here. If durability means nothing, then it doesn't matter. You could simply argue even Kurama would get overcome by acid.


Thicker does not mean it is somehow harder. it just means more of the same shit. not like it would change anything.

If he was covered in acid, why would that not hurt him? Is he immune to chemical attacks somehow? the issue is getting that far


X III said:


> Just as how a shockwave isn't the same as a real swing.


Ok, and Nagato tries to absorb a shockwave that he clearly sees isnt chakra, why? You also dodged the point.



X III said:


> 50% Kurama isn't a normal Bijuu in terms of power, and 50% Kurama has never taken a slash.


Gyuuki has taken slashes. And A# would have no reason to be using Nukite if he wasnt actually using it to strike Hachibi. And the fact that Hachibi is bleeding kinda shows that.

And Kurama has taken a FRS. which cuts before it explodes.


X III said:


> Other Tailed Beasts have lost to weaker attacks, so Gyuki is separate from the rest.


Not really, no, i'll explain.


X III said:


> I'm not referring to that fight.
> 
> 1. Shukaku was having trouble with Gamabunta.
> 2. Matatabi was having trouble with Kakuzu and Hidan.
> 3. Isobu lost to a single explosion.


Shukaku was literally 1 AIR BULLET away from killing Gamabunta. He literally didnt giv a fuck that his arm was just cut off, and didnt even offer a sand defense to it.

Matatabi was having trouble with Hidan because hidan is fuckin strong. Strong evough to be in akatsuki. Strong enough to be ordered to invade the leaf. And strong enough to beat yugito.

A single explosion in water which dramatically amplifies its effects is what beat isobu. a high speed explosive under a tank up water allows the water to slice through solid steel upon explosion. That and it was a big bomb blowing up right in his face. we saw what his other bomb did to the GIANT island turtle. it allowed Manda to tilt it over.




X III said:


> I will admit that I was wrong there, but it doesn't change anything. Getting knocked back by the Bee and KCM Naruto only proves Kurama would make short work of him.


No it doesnt, case Sage Naruto made short work of Kyuubi, he whipped him overhead and through the air into the ground no problem. KCM, Gyuuki, Kakashi and Gai FINALLY knocked over the gedo mazo With a combo attack. Hiruzen and fodder ninja pushed full kyuubi from the village.

You tell me which is more impressive.



X III said:


> If that were the case, Nagato would have removed the rods from himself after he got a Bijuu for the Mazo.
> 
> The Mazo was also able to move before it pierced Nagato.


It barely moved, how could it do jutsu without a replenishing source? Why did it not require chakra every other time? Why was it able to use jutsu without using anyone else as a sacrifice?



X III said:


> Nagato isn't fighting Madara while he has rods in his back, unless you aim to tell me Nagato is stronger than EMS Madara and thereby stronger than Pain as well, in which case he would have no need to use Pain in battle. That's blatantly nonsensical.


He HAD the chakra rods in his back. He was ALSO severely damaged by hanzos bombs. Naruto clearly says pain is weaker than Nagato. And kabuto clearly states Nagatos weakness. Nagato would have to be carried everywhere to be as effective as pain. But if the fight is brought to hhim, he wins WAY harder than Pain can. What he SHOULD have done was get one body and use that as the medium for all 6 paths.  


X III said:


> It's not dishonest, because I made it apparent that's what I thought of them and being equal to somebody doesn't mean you have the same output.


 Except you keep repeating "same power" and "Should be able to hit as hard/tank as much"
Those are not statements of one who isnt trying to misrepresent the facts.



X III said:


> Which you still haven't proven.
> 
> Do you think Mokujin and Shinsuusenju both died after suppressing Kurama?


I addressed this already.

As for SS, he has no reason to use it against Madara as Madara was using a large construct either. It must be extraordinarily difficult to fight a small man as a giant beast.


X III said:


> Mokujin is stronger than Kurama with sealing, then the only thing the statement can mean is that Mokujin is equal to Kurama without sealing.


No, Mokujin BEAT kurama with sealing.
Just like Ino and Darui BEAT V2 Kinkaku with sealing even though neither were stronger.
This is the issue with misrepresenting the words here it causes immense confusion.



X III said:


> Semantics game + manipulating what I said.


Bullshit. You said "They are both Jutsu, which aren't genetically part of Madara or Nagato."
That means in a straight taijutsu fight you allow those kind of jutsu or dont. So a taijutsu fight with kakahshi, Neji crushes kakashi because Kakashi cant use sharingan as it isnt genetically apart of him, the fuck else did you mean.


X III said:


> They're both enhancements which can be used for strength.


Susano is not used for PERSONAL strength. It doesn't augment your body like the others do. This is not a debatable fact. you are straight up wrong on this.


X III said:


> Missing the river and gates, apparently.
> 
> Mind showing me the calc with a link?






Eliyua23 said:


> Kabuto literally stated Madara was his strongest Edo Tensei , he could barely walk and had to rely on the Paths of Pain , he got taken out by the combo of Naruto’s clone and Itachi’s Totsuka now you expect him to stand a chance against Perfect Susanoo lol , there is literally nothing he can do to Madara once Ps comes out .


No he doesn't. People keep bring up that lie, he never says strongest, ever. He says trump card, cause he was. He was Kabutos trump card against Obito.

And that was the REAL naruto, not a clone.


----------



## Blu-ray (Feb 10, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> By making direct contact with it.


Okay, and how does he make direct contact? Because I don't see him running up to Madara and not getting roared/slapped away but the Kyuubi or not wiped out by PS itself.



> After losing a helluva lot of chakra. Moot point. At least it ain't like madara, who was stabbed by black zetsu in his strongest form.


Madara lost because he had his back turned to something he thought was literally a part of himself. Nagato doesn't have any such excuses. His abilities were straight up insufficient.



> It wasn't directly hit by KN6's bijuudama, it just happened to be in the blast crater, yeah right.


If he was hit, he would have been dead. Or do you think that Bijuudama is somehow weaker than Naruto's base Rasengan?



> Same PS swing can also be dodged.


 and see why that makes absolutely no sense. That was a casual swing and it completely shattered his meteors and went on to slice mountains. Nagato could be as mobile as his paths. He's not evading that.


> I never really got any good speed feats from that thing anyway.


It's a shockwave. They cannot form unless the sound barrier is broken by definition, and that applies to the absolute _weakest_ of them.



> Which he will have no problem with, seeing as he could absorb senpo odama rasengan on contact and negate the force behind it.


What force? It's straight up a ball of spiraling chakra. It isn't comparable to PS shockwave.



> I concede, he still has his summons.


Which 



> And nagato can still absorb the sword, even as it touches him.


But it _won't_ touch him. It literally never makes contact with the things it cuts.



> Why can't he just jump on the legs and start absorbing from there?


He could certainly try. But between a rampaging Kyuubi and the fact that PS could just swat Nagato away, it does him no good.



> Because madara uses shockwaves for most of his arsenal. Yeah, apart from the opening move with PS, I don't recall madara using shockwaves as a go to move.


I didn't say it was the majority of his arsenal, I said it was the majority of what he's going to be using here. If he sees that chakra based attacks are useless, then it's common sense to rely on something that isn't chakra based.



> On top of this, Nagato already absorbed a mountain busting rasengan from jiraiya easily,,


What about PS shockwaves not being chakra are you not getting? The COR can be absorbed. The shockwaves cannot be.



> without experiencing a shockwave.


Rasegans don't cause shockwaves to begin with.



> So he absorbs PS attacks until madara summons kyuubi,


Madara always opts the Kyuubi before PS, not before.



> afterwhich he frees the bijuu with chakra rods.


Not only do the rods have no such ability, but they could not pierce the Kyuubi's skin, and even if they could, Madara would be protecting it with Iso: Susano'o, preventing that anyway. So this fails on three different levels.



> Same hashirama died in fist shinobi world war, an exponentially more powerful madara was defeated by black zetsu, the war kage killed him if not for his edo status. So, it's pretty damn clear that anyone who isn't hashirama and is powerful enough can do it.


We don't know the circumstances behind Hashirama's death, and the Gokage would not have beaten Madara, Edo Tensei or not. They only managed as much as they did because he was toying with them. 



> Because:
> 
> He Leveled a whole village and losing his most powerful path for minutes
> His opponent had intel plus backup
> ...


If your arguement is that he needs to be at 100% to beat Naruto, then you aren't doing your case any favours, because that same Naruto is one Madara wouldn't need to even try against.



> Yeah, the guy who lost to Black zetsu while he was godlike doesn't really strike me as strong.


He didn't fight black Zetsu to begin with, and KCM Minato and Kakashi couldn't even beat him when they did.


----------



## Kagutsutchi (Feb 11, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Okay, and how does he make direct contact? Because I don't see him running up to Madara and not getting roared/slapped away but the Kyuubi or not wiped out by PS itself.


Wait, when did the kyuubi come into this? From madara's shockwaves are enough to kyuubi will roar at him, stick to one thing.




> Madara lost because he had his back turned to something he thought was literally a part of himself.


And he couldn't danger sense with sage sensing to avoid that hand or at least react to it.



> Nagato doesn't have any such excuses. His abilities were straight up insufficient.


Because he was dying and he wasn't trying to even kill naruto despite being nerfed when the latter showed up. If he was, naruto would be dead.




> If he was hit, he would have been dead.


And we see he was hit and he's not dead. Are you trying to argue against the manga now?



> Or do you think that Bijuudama is somehow weaker than Naruto's base Rasengan?


No. This is just another quirk of kishimoto's. We know Ohnoki can die to a rasengan, but madara's shockwave doesn't even knock him unconscious. Does that now mean rasengan>shockwave?




> and see why that makes absolutely no sense. That was a casual swing and it completely shattered his meteors and went on to slice mountains. Nagato could be as mobile as his paths. He's not evading that.


When the old and exhausted ohnoki can tank this same shockwave, nagato doesn't need to.



> It's a shockwave. They cannot form unless the sound barrier is broken by definition, and that applies to the absolute _weakest_ of them.


Strength doesn't equal speed, and nagato is faster than sound. Nagato can still shinra tensei the thing or just dodge it and tank it like the five kage by hiding in his summons mouth and letting it take the damage.




> What force? It's straight up a ball of spiraling chakra. It isn't comparable to PS shockwave.


The spiralling chakra that deals damage by imparting massive amounts of force onto it's target vs a sword that can create a shockwave. It's no surprise that madara only uses the shockwave ability once. In fact, what stops nagato from repelling the shockwave with a far stronger shinra tensei?




> Which


He can use as meat shields, as transport, etc.




> But it _won't_ touch him. It literally never makes contact with the things it cuts.


The very fucking link you showed me shows his blade made contact with the ground as it cut it. In fact, why don't you show me a link to *something *that confirms his swords don't make contact with what they cut?




> He could certainly try. But between a rampaging Kyuubi and the fact that PS could just swat Nagato away, it does him no good.


Rampaging kyuubi can be released from genjutsu by nagato transmitting chakra through the rods, The damn things also have a paralysis effect. And again, madara would just be damaging his own susanoo.




> I didn't say it was the majority of his arsenal, I said it was the majority of what he's going to be using here.


Asspull even in NBD.



> If he sees that chakra based attacks are useless, then it's common sense to rely on something that isn't chakra based.


And taijutsu won't come to his mind, shockwaves will. Asspulldara strikes again. Okay, he tries the shockwave only for nagato to shinra tensei the thing away, what next for madara?




> What about PS shockwaves not being chakra are you not getting?


What about madara not even using the thing *intentionally* don't _you_ get? Madara never once thought about using his shockwave to destroy that meteor and damage the mountains, he did that by accident and he didn't even kill ohnoki.



> The COR can be absorbed.


The force it generates can't.



> The shockwaves cannot be.


Again, madara never intentionally used that shockwave. Him doing that was by accident. You have to show him using the attack regularly to say he can even do it. and this ignores shinra tensei, which is powerful enough to stop and overcome the shockwave.



> Rasegans don't cause shockwaves to begin with.


They transmit force on contact though and a weaker path negated that. Plus deva path.




> Madara always opts the Kyuubi before PS, not before.


Because of that one fight with hashirama? Okay, Kyuubi fights like an idiot, and nagato can release it from madara's control with the rods.




> Not only do the rods have no such ability,


Sure, the rods don't have the ability to transmit chakra over distances(how the pains are controlled) and therefore disrupt the kyuubi's chakra since that is one of the ways to break genjutsu.



> but they could not pierce the Kyuubi's skin,


Because we see some piercing feats from the kyuubi that suggest this, or the fight between the jinchuuriki and naruto was retconned and we totally didn't see rods sticking outta them. Heck, if pain summons the mazo, what stops him from using the dragon to kill madara?



> and even if they could,


Not even sure of your own claims.



> Madara would be protecting it with Iso: Susano'o, preventing that anyway.


But you said:


> Madara always opts the Kyuubi before PS, not before.


So i can just say that madara always opts using the kyuubi unarmored before armoring it.



> So this fails on three four different levels.


I completely agree. Your lack of knowledge on what the chakra rods can do was alarming.



> We don't know the circumstances behind Hashirama's death,


We know he died in the war, so he died in a battle.



> and the Gokage would not have beaten Madara, Edo Tensei or not.


Lies. If not for his rinnegan, or hashirama cells as well as his edo tensei status, he would have died long ago.



> They only managed as much as they did because he was toying with them.


And he was only toying with them because he was an edo tensei and was stacked beyond belief.




> If your arguement is that he needs to be at 100% to beat Naruto, then you aren't doing your case any favours, because that same Naruto is one Madara wouldn't need to even try against.


Thank goodness that's not my argument.




> He didn't fight black Zetsu to begin with,


And nagato didn't try to kill naruto to begin with.



> and KCM Minato and Kakashi couldn't even beat him when they did.


Because he had obito, and the fucking juubi assisting him.


----------



## X III (Feb 12, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> First off, the mokujin is absolutly gone. You would have to prove it is still there.
> We know Mokujin is about as tall as Kyuubi, why then is hashirama on the ground after the blast?


I know the Mokujin is gone. Can you prove it was destroyed? Or else there's reason to believe he withdrew it, like he did later on.



kokodeshide said:


> Show me where I said that please.


You stated in the recent "Is Nagato Juubi Jin Tier?" thread that Nagato is greater than anything that isn't Juubi Jin, and have admitted he can deal with some of their techniques. You also said in a thread a while ago that mobile Nagato can contend with Juubito, possibly defeat him. 



kokodeshide said:


> A mouse that can tank TBB and some of the SS gets damages by being grabbed? Kuramas durability is >Gyuukis. so kurama has at least the durability of Gyuuki, meaning a simple grab isn't hurting him at all. Him roaring is not proof of pain at all.


Different types of damage resistance.

Gyuki has gotten its limbs cut off by shuriken before.



kokodeshide said:


> No, cause it was destroyed by his weakest TBB.


Which you still haven't proven.



kokodeshide said:


> "And Perfect Susano'o could cut mountain tops with shockwaves. It's also stated it can cut through steel with no issue." the first part of that clearly references madara, correct? Telling me to read what you said lol


Once again, learn to read. Just to be more specific and save you time, I mentioned Itachi piercing Nagato as proof Madara can do it as well. You cited his blade being powerful, to which I responded. It has nothing to do with Nagato's output, it has to do with his durability towards piercing.



kokodeshide said:


> Sharp? What? a hand is sharp? is your hand sharp? No? so how is a giant one sharp??????? It didnt cleanly cut the ground OR his arm so it wasn't sharp at all.


He cut Nagato with the finger nails of his Susano'o, so he hit him with a sharp attack. Not sure how this isn't obvious.

It didn't cut the ground because it was never aimed at the ground. Yes, it did cut his arm off, we see him regenerating moments after.



kokodeshide said:


> Recovery is NOT durability, you have to be durable enough to SURVIVE the attack to recover from it.


That's what I'm saying.

Kurama survived the attack. Was he injured gravely? Yes, he was. 



kokodeshide said:


> Your definition of power is fucked up then. Because power is not absolute in manga. the sannin are depicted as equals, at least in part one, barring the edo. There are people orochimaru can beat thats tsunade cant and vice versa.


I agree, except this has nothing to do with we're talking about. If it was Kyuubi suppression which made Mokujin "equal" to Kurama, it would have been mentioned.



kokodeshide said:


> Portrayal of what?
> the rest of the rookie 9 were with team 7, is that portrayal that they are equal? they did a combo attack with team 7, does that make them equal?


False equivalence. 



kokodeshide said:


> Are you fuckin serious? A charged TBB is equal to a uncharged TBB? Are you seriously debating that.


No, what I'm talking about is the magical difference you pulled out of your ass.



kokodeshide said:


> First off, they are calced as equal, second, FRS cut through miles and miles of mountain chunks with no problem.
> 
> FRS did jack shit to kyuubi. He was hit AND had his chakra stolen and STILL didnt have a scratch on him and used a TBB right after.


I don't care about calcs to begin with, considering Kishimoto doesn't have everything thought in his head. If he can barely manage to scale size correctly in his Manga, then he certainly can't calc anything in his head.

There were burn marks on Kurama, and he was yelling in pain. This was before he got his Chakra stolen.



kokodeshide said:


> Thicker does not mean it is somehow harder. it just means more of the same shit. not like it would change anything.
> 
> If he was covered in acid, why would that not hurt him? Is he immune to chemical attacks somehow? the issue is getting that far


Perfect Susano'o is a samurai warrior cloaked in armor. Ribcage is just a ribcage made of Chakra. They're completely different, and completely different stages of Susano'o. 

The point isn't that acid wouldn't hurt him. The point is if acid ignores durability, then it doesn't matter because I could easily argue acid would defeat Kurama.



kokodeshide said:


> Ok, and Nagato tries to absorb a shockwave that he clearly sees isnt chakra, why? You also dodged the point.


When did I say Nagato would absorb a shockwave?

I didn't dodge the point. If V4 Susano'o can tank a TBB from the strongest Bijuu, then it can also tank TBBs from lesser Bijuu. The only argument to be made is if they use TBB barrages, in which case PS can throw them off balance with shockwaves or blatantly survive them, considering Kurama's TBB did no damage whatsoever. A super charged TBB is the argument to be made, not a barrage.



kokodeshide said:


> Gyuuki has taken slashes. And A# would have no reason to be using Nukite if he wasnt actually using it to strike Hachibi. And the fact that Hachibi is bleeding kinda shows that.
> 
> And Kurama has taken a FRS. which cuts before it explodes.


How does that help your point? Nukite cut off Gyuki's limbs and made it bleed, like you said.

What I'm saying is you can't backwards scale weaker Bijuu off of 50% Kurama. Regardless, I do agree Kurama can tank slashes. Just saying he hasn't done it on panel.



kokodeshide said:


> Shukaku was literally 1 AIR BULLET away from killing Gamabunta. He literally didnt giv a fuck that his arm was just cut off, and didnt even offer a sand defense to it.
> 
> Matatabi was having trouble with Hidan because hidan is fuckin strong. Strong evough to be in akatsuki. Strong enough to be ordered to invade the leaf. And strong enough to beat yugito.
> 
> A single explosion in water which dramatically amplifies its effects is what beat isobu. a high speed explosive under a tank up water allows the water to slice through solid steel upon explosion. That and it was a big bomb blowing up right in his face. we saw what his other bomb did to the GIANT island turtle. it allowed Manda to tilt it over.


1. It still speaks about his durability. Got his arm cut off by a sword in comparison to tanking the explosion of a Juubi TBB right in the face with no damage. Again, different damage resistances. Both Gyuki and Shukaku were shown weak to slashing/piercing.

2. Matatabi fought both Kakuzu and Hidan. And the fact Hidan drew blood means either his scythe or one of Kakuzu's attacks hurt her.

3. I will give you that, but surely it's nothing compared to a Juubi TBB.



kokodeshide said:


> No it doesnt, case Sage Naruto made short work of Kyuubi, he whipped him overhead and through the air into the ground no problem. KCM, Gyuuki, Kakashi and Gai FINALLY knocked over the gedo mazo With a combo attack. Hiruzen and fodder ninja pushed full kyuubi from the village.
> 
> You tell me which is more impressive.


He pushed 50% Kurama onto the ground. Kurama could have one-shotted him with a TBB had Bee not saved him. 

What makes you think the team were struggling with the Gedo Mazo? They seemed to make quick work of it. Kakashi and Guy both seemed to be insignificant against the Mazo. So unless you think Hachibi and KCM Naruto > Kurama, it should be a clear victory for Kurama.

Kurama was pushed out of the village. They failed to do any damage to him.



kokodeshide said:


> It barely moved, how could it do jutsu without a replenishing source? Why did it not require chakra every other time? Why was it able to use jutsu without using anyone else as a sacrifice?


Just as how a Sharingan user can control a Tailed Beast with their visual prowess, a Rinnegan user can control the Gedo Mazo. Getting stabbed by Chakra Rods isn't necessary, as shown by Madara. 

And you didn't address my other point.



kokodeshide said:


> He HAD the chakra rods in his back. He was ALSO severely damaged by hanzos bombs. Naruto clearly says pain is weaker than Nagato. And kabuto clearly states Nagatos weakness. Nagato would have to be carried everywhere to be as effective as pain. But if the fight is brought to hhim, he wins WAY harder than Pain can. What he SHOULD have done was get one body and use that as the medium for all 6 paths.


Pain was weaker than Edo Nagato, who didn't have rods in his back. 

Nagato could have had Animal Path summon him to every battle.



kokodeshide said:


> Except you keep repeating "same power" and "Should be able to hit as hard/tank as much"
> Those are not statements of one who isnt trying to misrepresent the facts.


When? I'll retract those statements if I did say that. If I came across as dishonest, I'll have you know it wasn't my intention. I've always seen Kurama as being more offense oriented and Susano'o more defense oriented.

As for breaking out of CT like Kurama, I think any of the constructs can do that since they should all be stronger than 50% KN8 Naruto, whether you agree with me or not. Just pointing out it isn't a flaw in my reasoning.



kokodeshide said:


> I addressed this already.
> 
> As for SS, he has no reason to use it against Madara as Madara was using a large construct either. It must be extraordinarily difficult to fight a small man as a giant beast.


It really isn't. 

Doesn't matter to begin with. According to your logic, we could assume Mokujin was destroyed after it suppressed Kurama because it was never seen again. That's the point.



kokodeshide said:


> No, Mokujin BEAT kurama with sealing.
> Just like Ino and Darui BEAT V2 Kinkaku with sealing *even though neither were stronger.*
> This is the issue with misrepresenting the words here it causes immense confusion.


So you're saying strength has nothing to do with suppression/sealing.



kokodeshide said:


> Bullshit. You said "They are both Jutsu, which aren't genetically part of Madara or Nagato."
> That means in a straight taijutsu fight you allow those kind of jutsu or dont. So a taijutsu fight with kakahshi, Neji crushes kakashi because Kakashi cant use sharingan as it isnt genetically apart of him, the fuck else did you mean.


What I meant by "genetically" in this context was it's not part of their base arsenal. I don't mean literal genetics. 

And even so, my point was that both Susano'o and Shurado should be used as physical strength, so I actually agree the Sharingan should be used for Kakashi even if you misinterpret what I said.



kokodeshide said:


> Susano is not used for PERSONAL strength. It doesn't augment your body like the others do. This is not a debatable fact. you are straight up wrong on this.


Both Susano'o and Shurado are Jutsu used from Chakra. I really see no reason why they both can't be used. 

Other calcs simply scale the buildings and get it at 3km, but I don't care. The calc itself mentioned Konoha's size is inconsistent. I will, however, agree the feat was impressive.


----------



## Leaf Hurricane (Feb 12, 2019)

Madara puts the disabled kid in his place. 
There is a reason his rival was Hashirama and why he is lord asspull.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 12, 2019)

X III said:


> I know the Mokujin is gone. Can you prove it was destroyed? Or else there's reason to believe he withdrew it, like he did later on.




What is this I don't even...

There is no reason to believe he withdrew it. At all. If it could tank the attack he wouldn't need to withdraw it. You also dont see it withdrawn so you cant say it was. The sage enhanced wood was destroyed by weaker attacks so yeah, the mokujin is absolutely destroyed.


X III said:


> You stated in the recent "Is Nagato Juubi Jin Tier?" thread that Nagato is greater than anything that isn't Juubi Jin, and have admitted he can deal with some of their techniques. You also said in a thread a while ago that mobile Nagato can contend with Juubito, possibly defeat him.


Greater than any non juubi jin is not saying he is even close to the same kind of power.

Yeah, a nagato who is on a level of speed capable of dealing with Juubito should no doubt have a shot at beating him. He has specific counters to plenty of his abilities. But in no way is he near the power of him.

Nagato doesnt have to beat Juubito up, he has Soul Stealing and chakra draining moves. Juubito luterally doesnt do much other than chakra attacks. If he fights agato hand to hand herips him apart, mobile or not. But i would be crazy to think he has no way of winning. If i think Nagato>Madara and I take Madaras word that he could have somehow weakened obito then im going to assume a theoretical prime mobile Nagato could too.


X III said:


> Different types of damage resistance.
> 
> Gyuki has gotten its limbs cut off by shuriken before.


his limbs have no fuckin bones. they are pure wiggly tentacles.
First off you would have to proove a simple roar WHICH KYUUBI ALWAYS DOES, means he is is pain when he has tanked attacks far stronger.



X III said:


> Which you still haven't proven.


You saying this shit is like saying "You will have to prove Madara didnt simply block the TBB itself then hide behind kyuubi then resummon susano around kyuubi after the TBB was finished. you have to prove he didn't do that since we know he can summon and desummon susanno at will."


X III said:


> Once again, learn to read. Just to be more specific and save you time, I mentioned Itachi piercing Nagato as proof Madara can do it as well. You cited his blade being powerful, to which I responded. It has nothing to do with Nagato's output, it has to do with his durability towards piercing.


How unsavory. Considering you lack the basic mental capacity to understand that Mokujin was clearly destroyed I don't recommend telling anyone to learn to read. How dumb is it to assume that basic physical attacks can break hashis wood but a TBB can't? And I need to learn to read.

Anyway, Madara cutting through a mountain is not the same as Itachi cutting through harder than steel + sage enhanced bone. Chakra blades could not cut through a thin section of Kimimaros bone. Itachi cutting an entire field of them is ridiculous attack potency. Whereas a shockwave slicing a mountain is not attack potent. it cut through rock. Just like FRS did.



X III said:


> He cut Nagato with the finger nails of his Susano'o, so he hit him with a sharp attack. Not sure how this isn't obvious.
> 
> It didn't cut the ground because it was never aimed at the ground. Yes, it did cut his arm off, we see him regenerating moments after.


Bone hands have fingernails now???? fingernails are sharp now????? And i need to learn to read


You do realize that a metal pipe moving fast enough would "cut" your arm off, right?


X III said:


> That's what I'm saying.
> 
> Kurama survived the attack. Was he injured gravely? Yes, he was.


He wasnt gravely injured at all. He was missing a few sections of his tails. from a version of an attack FAR stronger than a standard TBB.
Considering Bijuu can straight up resurrect from death I'm sure he didn't mind.



X III said:


> I agree, except this has nothing to do with we're talking about. If it was Kyuubi suppression which made Mokujin "equal" to Kurama, it would have been mentioned.


No it wouldn't it would be fuckin stupid for them to say, they are equals, but only because of sealing jutsu. that is just dumb. just like if there are 4 catagories of power i am best at 2 and you are best at the other 2 they might say we are equals just because of that. or if im best at all 4 things, yet you can beat me because you know my weakness/have a method of beating me, you would say we are equals.

getting destroyed by a baby version of a TBB when kyuubi can survive FAR worse does not make them equals. Kyuubi beats the Mokujin in every single category. The ONLY reason mokujin can even win a fight against Kyuubi is via suppression. Mokujin has no abilities to hurt kyuubi whatsoever. and you have absolutely no proof that it does. You just like to make up some fake ass "if he meant that he would have said that" line to suit your purposes.



X III said:


> False equivalence.


So then please explain to me how simply being next to kyuubi is equal portrayal?


X III said:


> No, what I'm talking about is the magical difference you pulled out of your ass.


 Wtf are you talking about? A unexploded TBB is maybe .01 percent as capable of destroying the same shit as an exploded one. Are you really saying a unexploded ball is even half as powerful? its just a semi solid mass traveling fast, not an explosion traveling faster. This isnt fuckin complex calculus, this is basic first grade shit, a stick of tnt does FAR less damage than a exploded one. A missile that explodes does FAR more damage AFTER it explodes. Where in your mind does a non exploded fuckin nuke do more damage before it explodes?



X III said:


> I don't care about calcs to begin with, considering Kishimoto doesn't have everything thought in his head. If he can barely manage to scale size correctly in his Manga, then he certainly can't calc anything in his head.
> 
> There were burn marks on Kurama, and he was yelling in pain. This was before he got his Chakra stolen.


Then tell me, how are you judging the power of some moves over the power of others?

He was BARELY scuffed. more stunned than anything else, still not cut at all. FRS cut through miles of rock just as Madaras attack did, yet it did nothing to kyuubi. no cuts at all.



X III said:


> Perfect Susano'o is a samurai warrior cloaked in armor. Ribcage is just a ribcage made of Chakra. They're completely different, and completely different stages of Susano'o.
> 
> The point isn't that acid wouldn't hurt him. The point is if acid ignores durability, then it doesn't matter because I could easily argue acid would defeat Kurama.


PS is ALL chakra. from beard to ball fro, all chakra. more chakra isnt different, it is just MORE.

Acid could defeat kurama if he left in ton himself for long enough. kind of the point of acid attacks, durability doesnt matter.


X III said:


> When did I say Nagato would absorb a shockwave?
> 
> I didn't dodge the point. If V4 Susano'o can tank a TBB from the strongest Bijuu, then it can also tank TBBs from lesser Bijuu. The only argument to be made is if they use TBB barrages, in which case PS can throw them off balance with shockwaves or blatantly survive them, considering Kurama's TBB did no damage whatsoever. A super charged TBB is the argument to be made, not a barrage.


Either a chaged TBB or a long enough TBB barrage beats a PS. Each punch of the SS is not stronger than a TBB not even close, yet 1000 broke away the PS.

As for the swing itself, if you didnt mean to say the typical nagato can absorb a shockwave BS, the swing it self is unquantifiable. Susano has been cracked by Tsunade punches so we dont even know if a susano sword could even survive hitting a bijuu.



X III said:


> How does that help your point? Nukite cut off Gyuki's limbs and made it bleed, like you said.
> 
> What I'm saying is you can't backwards scale weaker Bijuu off of 50% Kurama. Regardless, I do agree Kurama can tank slashes. Just saying he hasn't done it on panel.


Im saying the best cutting attack in the manga didnt do much to gyuuki other than cut his reletively mushy tails.

And Kurama did take 2 FRS with no cuts at all. just "scuff marks and burns" from the explosion.


X III said:


> 1. It still speaks about his durability. Got his arm cut off by a sword in comparison to tanking the explosion of a Juubi TBB right in the face with no damage. Again, different damage resistances. Both Gyuki and Shukaku were shown weak to slashing/piercing.


He is a sand monster, getting his arm cut off means nothing. he can just grow it back.

And to use your logic, Madara is weak to slashing as he was cut in half by sasukes sword which we know isnt as strong as totsuka so totsuka> Juubidara?????
He was also pierced by Black Zetsu whose body is not as durable as Hiramekarei so madara<weak ass attacks?


X III said:


> 2. Matatabi fought both Kakuzu and Hidan. And the fact Hidan drew blood means either his scythe or one of Kakuzu's attacks hurt her.


No, Akatsuki get 1 bijuu each. Matatabi for Hidan, and Kyuubi for Kakuzu. They did not fight her together. She attacked Kakuzu cause he was there but the canon is 1 bijuu for each member.

And Like i said before, weapons in naruto can be fuckin powerful. Getting cut isnt a weakness, its a feat for the weapon itself. Unless you want to say Madara really is weak to slashes that even A without his cloak can tank no sweat. Cant have your cake and eat it too, bro.



X III said:


> 3. I will give you that, but surely it's nothing compared to a Juubi TBB.


It's really different but at the same time, I wasn't implying it was.



X III said:


> He pushed 50% Kurama onto the ground. Kurama could have one-shotted him with a TBB had Bee not saved him.


only questioned Aizen about hollowfication
What was it you said...learn to read????

And that was base naruto in danger from a TBB, not Sage Naruto. Sage naruto beat the fuck out of kyuubi, still never hurt him enough to say he would have "won" a fight without sealing.


X III said:


> What makes you think the team were struggling with the Gedo Mazo? They seemed to make quick work of it. Kakashi and Guy both seemed to be insignificant against the Mazo. So unless you think Hachibi and KCM Naruto > Kurama, it should be a clear victory for Kurama.


 4 on 1 makes quick work of most things. You had KCM naruto AND BM Bee, plus Kakashi locking an arm up and Gai pinning a foot.
They knocked it over, big fuckin deal, they didnt wound it, they did nothing damaging to it. The mazo has enough life force to keep you alive after the JUUBI is ripped from you, it was ok after getting its arm Kamui'd off, the Mazo even lived through the MASSIVE TBB that launched it far away before it became the Juubi. Took Choji chakra punch like nothing. Remember, the Akimichi can even catch Juubi tail swipes. Choji is the top Akimichi and with Butterfly mode he is even stronger than himself with a KN1 boost. Kyuubi and Gyuuki were getting slapped away by the Juubi.

They essentially did a supremely executed table topping and tripped the Mazo. That fat ass combo only TRIPPED the Mazo. The Mazo is far stronger than 50% Kyuubi or Gyuuki. closer to, or even possibly above full kyuubi, BUT, doesn't have a way to actually injure Kyuubi, may be able to beat him into submission though. Controlled by nagato using the Phantom dragon he just constantly gets chakra stolen, further strengthening the Mazo.



X III said:


> Kurama was pushed out of the village. They failed to do any damage to him.


The mazo wasn't damaged either, it was knocked over, it got right back up with no issue.

Shit, the mazo is so fuckin strong it laughed off the Mountain Sandwhich jutsu that even the juubi struggled with. The Mazo is ridiculous.


X III said:


> Just as how a Sharingan user can control a Tailed Beast with their visual prowess, a Rinnegan user can control the Gedo Mazo. Getting stabbed by Chakra Rods isn't necessary, as shown by Madara.
> 
> And you didn't address my other point.


Except Madara didn't summon it to fight, it even comes up halfway like it used to when it had nearly no chakra. AND Madara also didnt use the Phantom dragons. AND The Mazo already has fuck tons of chakra at that point. Think about it like this, the last time the juubi was extracted from the Mazo, it had enough chakra to last for over 1000 years and even give some away to Madara, Obito and Zetsu.  
Nagato was using a Mazo that hadn't had any new chakra for over 1000 years. Hence why Nagato never had to have his life force taken again. If it constantly drained him it would do that every time. Yet Nagato doesnt even have to be there for them to use that jutsu with the mazo.


And what other point? This one "If that were the case, Nagato would have removed the rods from himself after he got a Bijuu for the Mazo."
It doesn't need addressing because it is ridiculous. Nagato has 2 choices.
1. Be the strongest living ninja in the world who can die with no consequences as he can revive any dead bodies. Crater villages, which no other ninja in history could do. fight on 6 fronts at the same time. Give konan a new body to fuck every day of the week.
Or
2. Be unable to walk without someone helping you. Risk being unable to react in time to cheat mode swords while some idiot is playing puppet master in your body. But hey, you are a bit stronger!

He has no reason to chose the second one, he can already do anything he wants without risking himself and forcing konan to carry him everywhere.


X III said:


> Pain was weaker than Edo Nagato, who didn't have rods in his back.
> 
> Nagato could have had Animal Path summon him to every battle.


Like I just said, Pain himself is stronger than anyone in the world at that point anyway. None of the 5 kage beat him. He can solo any village with the lightning village being the only possible loss. He already controls akatsuki, the stronger than bijuu army. Pain had no threats whatsoever. It took the craziest events for Pain to just BARELY be defeated. Why would nagato even have to come out and fight? The bro is crippled from having explosive tags and fire jutsu fuck his legs up.


X III said:


> When? I'll retract those statements if I did say that. If I came across as dishonest, I'll have you know it wasn't my intention. I've always seen Kurama as being more offense oriented and Susano'o more defense oriented.
> 
> As for breaking out of CT like Kurama, I think any of the constructs can do that since they should all be stronger than 50% KN8 Naruto, whether you agree with me or not. Just pointing out it isn't a flaw in my reasoning.


Except KN6 has TBB that blow up right in front of him and make explosions FAR bigger than the SS. Yet it's TBB didn't even scratch the CT. Plus, KN6 landed on the outer portion of the CT, meaning he didnt have to break through much material in the first place. So yeah, Susano breaks out of the section of material that KN8 was in. But only if he is in that section to begin with. If he is deeper, he isn't breaking through shit. And that is if he even survived the pelting of all the fragments of mountains crashing into him at faster than freefall speeds. The gravity durin formation is enough to sheer rock off of itself. KN6 couldnt even stand up. when he was on the CT. Yet once it was done forming KN8 was able to break out and SM naruto was able to casually stand on the surface of the CT.

The other thing is. KN8 is literally so much more powerful than people realize. Sage mode and KCM are similar in power. KCM is better at output because SM has limited reserves. but in terms of power, Sage mode has more powerful attacks, pound for pound. KN6 shits on SM. Badly. KCM doesn't. KN8 is MUCH more powerful than KN6 too. a jinchuriki amplifies a bijuus power significantly. so KN8 is probably closer to a BM Naruto than people think. IMO
KN1<2<3<4<Jinchuikiless 50% Kurama<SM<KCM<KN6<KCM2<KN8<=BM
Sagemode Naruto was able to whip around the 50% Kyuubi with no issue. KN6 is SO much more powerful than SM it isn't even funny. So saying KN8 Breaking from the CT shows that Kyuubi can and therefore susano can is based a a fals premise of  50% kyuubi>KN8. All signs show that KN6 is stronger than SM Naruto which is "Stronger" than kyuubi. So it isnt as black and white as you think.



X III said:


> It really isn't.
> 
> Doesn't matter to begin with. According to your logic, we could assume Mokujin was destroyed after it suppressed Kurama because it was never seen again. That's the point.


Its a horrible point. Hashirama was seen leaving the SS. we dont know what happened to it. But being in the center of an explosion then saying oh no, he just left, is fuckin stupid. I have never even seen that point argued.


X III said:


> So you're saying strength has nothing to do with suppression/sealing.


Unless you think Chiyo>Shukaku, Darui>V2 Kinkaku, Madara> all 9 bijuu he just got his ass whooped by, Kushina>Kurama, Mito>Kurama, then yes, Suppression and sealing is NOT power. Not on a mindless beast who cant resist your suppression.

Jiraiya sealed amaterasu, doesnt mean a damn thing. Orochimaru is arguably mid level akatsuki, yet they knew since his SKILL in sealing was not there, it would take them longer to seal the bijuu. You can have POWER, and you can also have SKILL in sealing. This is canon fact. As minato was stronger than kushina yet couldnt fully seal Kyuubi whereas a dying Kushina could. They do not relate, whatsoever, and anyone who continues to push that narritive is dishonest at best.


X III said:


> What I meant by "genetically" in this context was it's not part of their base arsenal. I don't mean literal genetics.
> 
> And even so, my point was that both Susano'o and Shurado should be used as physical strength, so I actually agree the Sharingan should be used for Kakashi even if you misinterpret what I said.


No, you are the one misinterpreting. I'm saying that if you put Susano into the category of Nin-taijutsu, you are disqualifying Sharingan as well. And when you say "Base arsenal" wtf does that even mean? How is sharingan part of base arsenal? Sharingan isnt a base move. Gates arent either, neither is akimichi shit or kaguya shit. Thats all body modification. Susano is literally summoning a Construct that is not a part of you other than a chakra link.



X III said:


> Both Susano'o and Shurado are Jutsu used from Chakra. I really see no reason why they both can't be used.


So is gates, bone, body expansion, etc, so is any fuckin ninjutsu period. and genjutsu. So Tsukuyomi gives itachi the win against gated lee in a taijutsu only fight because gates and Tsukuyomi use chakra. Fuckin bogus logic. Asura is a BODY modification. Like Sharingan, Byakugan, Bone growing, body expansion. Susano is like NONE of those. It creates a fuckin avatar of chakra around you, not connected to you in any way, None of the other taijutsu forms and modifiers are ANYWHERE NEAR similar to Susano.


X III said:


> Other calcs simply scale the buildings and get it at 3km, but I don't care. The calc itself mentioned Konoha's size is inconsistent. I will, however, agree the feat was impressive.


Actually, most calcs start from building. then move up to the mountain then the village so even using just building you still get huge numbers. The smaller numbers are from smaller images of Konoha. The crater was so big and deep normal ninja couldnt even SEE naruto fighting pain. Only the hyuuga were even able to see what was happening and had to relay events. konoha is huge, it fits.

The point is, It is a jutsu that is kilometers deep and tens of Kilometers wide with a force from a jutsu that doesn't even bend from a sage FRS hitting it. Absolutely nothing Hashirama or Madara has have ANYTHING on that. Not even close. Even bijuudama don't make craters that deep. The VotE is a fuckin pothole by comparison.


----------



## X III (Feb 13, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What is this I don't even...
> 
> There is no reason to believe he withdrew it. At all. If it could tank the attack he wouldn't need to withdraw it. You also dont see it withdrawn so you cant say it was. The sage enhanced wood was destroyed by weaker attacks so yeah, the mokujin is absolutely destroyed.


Just as how there is no reason to believe he withdrew it later on.



kokodeshide said:


> Greater than any non juubi jin is not saying he is even close to the same kind of power.
> 
> Yeah, a nagato who is on a level of speed capable of dealing with Juubito should no doubt have a shot at beating him. He has specific counters to plenty of his abilities. But in no way is he near the power of him.
> 
> Nagato doesnt have to beat Juubito up, he has Soul Stealing and chakra draining moves. Juubito luterally doesnt do much other than chakra attacks. If he fights agato hand to hand herips him apart, mobile or not. But i would be crazy to think he has no way of winning. If i think Nagato>Madara and I take Madaras word that he could have somehow weakened obito then im going to assume a theoretical prime mobile Nagato could too.


Yes, so you think Nagato is close to Juubi Jin Tier. That's an argument at the same level as trolling.



kokodeshide said:


> his limbs have no fuckin bones. they are pure wiggly tentacles.
> First off you would have to proove a simple roar WHICH KYUUBI ALWAYS DOES, means he is is pain when he has tanked attacks far stronger.


But it proves my point. Tanking a big explosion isn't like tanking a giant squeezing you. Kurama's Tails could incapacitate TBs, IIRC.



kokodeshide said:


> You saying this shit is like saying "You will have to prove Madara didnt simply block the TBB itself then hide behind kyuubi then resummon susano around kyuubi after the TBB was finished. you have to prove he didn't do that since we know he can summon and desummon susanno at will."


Except it's completely different because Mokujin is supported by a DB statement and has been withdrawn before when there was seemingly no reason to do so. 



kokodeshide said:


> How unsavory. Considering you lack the basic mental capacity to understand that Mokujin was *clearly* destroyed I don't recommend telling anyone to learn to read.


Using some strong words there for something which hasn't been proven and is directly opposed by statements. 

And yes, I can tell you to learn to read if you forget in the span of a post what my original point is. Just don't take it personally.



kokodeshide said:


> Anyway, Madara cutting through a mountain is not the same as Itachi cutting through harder than steel + sage enhanced bone. Chakra blades could not cut through a thin section of Kimimaros bone. Itachi cutting an entire field of them is ridiculous attack potency. Whereas a shockwave slicing a mountain is not attack potent. it cut through rock. Just like FRS did.


It cut through layers of rocks and could send the Five Kage flying with shockwaves.

Anyway, I have nothing to prove if you legitimately think Nagato can survive a Perfect Susano'o attack without his own his attack. He got his arm ripped off by some fingers, got stabbed by the Totsuka Blade, and had to defend himself against Bee's blade.



kokodeshide said:


> Bone hands have fingernails now???? fingernails are sharp now????? And i need to learn to read
> 
> 
> You do realize that a metal pipe moving fast enough would "cut" your arm off, right?


Yes, you can literally see the sharp finger.

If Itachi's Susano'o can move fast enough to cut Nagato's arm off with its nail, then Madara can do the same thing.



kokodeshide said:


> He wasnt gravely injured at all. He was missing a few sections of his tails. from a version of an attack FAR stronger than a standard TBB.
> Considering Bijuu can straight up resurrect from death I'm sure he didn't mind.


Yes, so he was gravely injured, despite already covering himself in all his tails and using his and Hachibi's own TBB Barrages to lower the power of the attack.

Resurrection is irrelevant, it takes time and a Bijuu's death is counted as a loss.



kokodeshide said:


> No it wouldn't it would be fuckin stupid for them to say, they are equals, but only because of sealing jutsu. that is just dumb.


If that was the reason, then it wouldn't be. Would certainly clear things up instead of talking about the Mokujin's offensive and defensive power.



kokodeshide said:


> just like if there are 4 catagories of power i am best at 2 and you are best at the other 2 they might say we are equals just because of that. or if im best at all 4 things, yet you can beat me because you know my weakness/have a method of beating me, you would say we are equals.


But how can you be equal with me if I beat you? And how does suppression have to do with power if you already admitted it doesn't?



kokodeshide said:


> So then please explain to me how simply being next to kyuubi is equal portrayal?


If Perfect Susano'o is the construct that has stood next to and been used in literal fusion with Kurama out of all Tailed Beasts on three separate occasions, then odds are they are similar in power. 



kokodeshide said:


> Wtf are you talking about? A unexploded TBB is maybe .01 percent as capable of destroying the same shit as an exploded one. Are you really saying a unexploded ball is even half as powerful? its just a semi solid mass traveling fast, not an explosion traveling faster. This isnt fuckin complex calculus, this is basic first grade shit, a stick of tnt does FAR less damage than a exploded one. A missile that explodes does FAR more damage AFTER it explodes. Where in your mind does a non exploded fuckin nuke do more damage before it explodes?


That's not what I meant in the first place. I was referring to this:

"cool, v4 susano<PS
uncharged TBB<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Charged TBB."

You're saying the difference between a charged and uncharged TBB is far greater than the difference between a V4 Susano'o and PS. 



kokodeshide said:


> Then tell me, how are you judging the power of some moves over the power of others?
> 
> He was BARELY scuffed. more stunned than anything else, still not cut at all. FRS cut through miles of rock just as Madaras attack did, yet it did nothing to kyuubi. no cuts at all.


By thinking about it. If Katsuyu survives an attack, and if I think Hashirama/Madara are more durable or resilient than Katsuyu, then odds are they can survive it as well.

Yes, it burned Kurama and made him yell. The point was never that Perfect Susano'o can kill Kurama. It was that they're equals. 



kokodeshide said:


> PS is ALL chakra. from beard to ball fro, all chakra. more chakra isnt different, it is just MORE.


And more potent Chakra is stronger. If Chakra transforms into armor, odds are that armor is stronger than some bones. Are you really going to tell me Madara's Ribcage can survive a Tailed Beast Ball?



kokodeshide said:


> Acid could defeat kurama if he left in ton himself for long enough. kind of the point of acid attacks, durability doesnt matter.


Agreed.



kokodeshide said:


> Either a chaged TBB or a long enough TBB barrage beats a PS. Each punch of the SS is not stronger than a TBB not even close, yet 1000 broke away the PS.


Tailed Beasts need more feats to say that they'll just keep barraging PS with TBBs. If Kurama and Gyuki used 5 or 6, then odds are the rest won't use more than that. If Itachi parries a shuriken, he can also parry 4 or 5 more. Whether he can parry a shuriken enhanced by Raiton Chakra is another story.



kokodeshide said:


> As for the swing itself, if you didnt mean to say the typical nagato can absorb a shockwave BS, the swing it self is unquantifiable. Susano has been cracked by Tsunade punches so we dont even know if a susano sword could even survive hitting a bijuu.


I don't know what this is supposed to mean.



kokodeshide said:


> Im saying the best cutting attack in the manga didnt do much to gyuuki other than cut his reletively mushy tails.


Two Tailed Beasts other than Gyuki have been hurt by piercing. Technically, all of them if you count the Rinnegan Rods.



kokodeshide said:


> He is a sand monster, getting his arm cut off means nothing. he can just grow it back.


But that's not the point. We're talking about durability, not resilience.



kokodeshide said:


> And to use your logic, Madara is weak to slashing as he was cut in half by sasukes sword which we know isnt as strong as totsuka so totsuka> Juubidara?????
> He was also pierced by Black Zetsu whose body is not as durable as Hiramekarei so madara<weak ass attacks?


The stronger a user is, the stronger their attacks are as well. I don't deny this. Point is PS is strong enough to do so.

Black Zetsu stabbed Madara with a Rikudou enhanced body.



kokodeshide said:


> No, Akatsuki get 1 bijuu each. Matatabi for Hidan, and Kyuubi for Kakuzu. They did not fight her together. She attacked Kakuzu cause he was there but the canon is 1 bijuu for each member.


Deidara had Tobi help him, so it's possible Kakuzu fought as well. But it's irrelevant.



kokodeshide said:


> And Like i said before, weapons in naruto can be fuckin powerful. Getting cut isnt a weakness, its a feat for the weapon itself. Unless you want to say Madara really is weak to slashes that even A without his cloak can tank no sweat. Cant have your cake and eat it too, bro


Weapons and users can both be powerful. Whether getting cut is a weakness or a feat for the weapon is irrelevant, unless you believe Hidan's Scythe is stronger than Madara's Susano'o.



kokodeshide said:


> It's really different but at the same time, I wasn't implying it was.


Gyuki: Survived indirect explosion of Juubi's TBB.
Sanbi: Knocked over by a C1. 

So you're saying the other Tailed Beasts are weaker than Gyuki. 



kokodeshide said:


> nothing
> What was it you said...learn to read????


You're taking what I said too literally. I'm aware of this scene, but I don't need to clarify that he grabbed a tail and tossed him to the ground, hence why I used "pushed" instead.

And I feel you're going around in circles here. At moments, you're saying these sorts of feats are irrelevant because they deal no damage. At other times, you're hyping them up.



kokodeshide said:


> And that was base naruto in danger from a TBB, not Sage Naruto. Sage naruto beat the fuck out of kyuubi, still never hurt him enough to say he would have "won" a fight without sealing.


How would it be relevant, unless you think SM Naruto can survive an explosion or dodge it?



kokodeshide said:


> 4 on 1 makes quick work of most things. You had KCM naruto AND BM Bee, plus Kakashi locking an arm up and Gai pinning a foot.
> They knocked it over, big fuckin deal, they didnt wound it, they did nothing damaging to it.


You were the one who brought up the feat.



kokodeshide said:


> the Mazo even lived through the MASSIVE TBB that launched it far away before it became the Juubi.


Or it just became the Juubi and recovered moments afterwards.



kokodeshide said:


> Choji is the top Akimichi and with Butterfly mode he is even stronger than himself with a KN1 boost.


Based on? A KN1 boost could allow Hinata to push back Juubi Tails and allowed fodder to survive Tenpenchi.



kokodeshide said:


> They essentially did a supremely executed table topping and tripped the Mazo. That fat ass combo only TRIPPED the Mazo.


Combo didn't seem like it took much effort. In fact, it seemed as though they had no trouble at all. So much to the point Obito had to step in.



kokodeshide said:


> Shit, the mazo is so fuckin strong it laughed off the Mountain Sandwhich jutsu that even the juubi struggled with. The Mazo is ridiculous.


Agreed, although the feat seems to be an inconsistency.



kokodeshide said:


> AND Madara also didnt use the Phantom dragons.


He used the chains of the Gedo Mazo.



kokodeshide said:


> Nagato was using a Mazo that hadn't had any new chakra for over 1000 years.


How do we know this?



kokodeshide said:


> Be unable to walk without someone helping you. Risk being unable to react in time to cheat mode swords while some idiot is playing puppet master in your body. But hey, you are a bit stronger!


As I said, Nagato can use Animal Path to summon him to wherever he needs to be. He can fight alongside the Pains. It would have been useful in the battle against Naruto.



kokodeshide said:


> Like I just said, Pain himself is stronger than anyone in the world at that point anyway. None of the 5 kage beat him. He can solo any village with the lightning village being the only possible loss. He already controls akatsuki, the stronger than bijuu army. Pain had no threats whatsoever. It took the craziest events for Pain to just BARELY be defeated. Why would nagato even have to come out and fight? The bro is crippled from having explosive tags and fire jutsu fuck his legs up.


He can shorten every battle by summoning himself there.



kokodeshide said:


> No, you are the one misinterpreting. I'm saying that if you put Susano into the category of Nin-taijutsu, you are disqualifying Sharingan as well. And when you say "Base arsenal" wtf does that even mean? How is sharingan part of base arsenal? Sharingan isnt a base move. Gates arent either, neither is akimichi shit or kaguya shit. Thats all body modification. Susano is literally summoning a Construct that is not a part of you other than a chakra link.


Sharingan is base for Kakashi because he literally can't deactivate it. The best he can do is cover it. 

There's no point in separating physical stats. If we're talking about durability, why would we talk about base Madara's durability and not look at Susano'o? His Susano'o will always be referred to when talking about his physical stats. Just how it is. Same applies to Shurado. This entire argument has been meaningless to begin with, it's just a semantics game.

We agree that that Susano'o Madara > Shurado Nagato > base Madara > base Nagato (assuming emaciated) in physical strength? Alright, let's move on.



kokodeshide said:


> The smaller numbers are from smaller images of Konoha.


Pretty much the point. The Manga is too inconsistent to scale, so at best we can only make estimates. I've never understood why people pixel scale the Manga despite not even Kishimoto seeming to care about it. It's like buying your friend some ice cream when he doesn't want any.

As for the text walls you posted about CT and Hashirama and Madara and all, TL;DR.

*My response is simply this: We agree to disagree regarding Hashirama and Madara's power, you seem to agree with pixel scaling while I don't. 

CT, I think can be broken out of by Mokujin and PS (former you agree is physically on par with Kurama) which 50% KN8 broke out of.

You think KN6 TBB is better than what they have looking at its size relative to Konoha. Once again, inconsistent. 

I don't understand why you used the point KN6 was on the mantle layer as though it matters. If it was there, surely Hashirama/Madara would also be there. 

The text wall with Naruto's different forms is a mess. My biggest issue is you contradicting yourself with Kurama (went from saying knocking a construct over is impressive, then saying it isn't then, saying it is. You claim KN6 > SM Naruto, but you didn't take into consideration that SM Naruto could have gotten stronger or is simply physically stronger.*

All of what has been bolded is stuff I won't debate, because our opinions are so different that it won't matter and will be a waste of time. So it's an agree to disagree. 

As far as the Gedo Mazo life force argument goes, if you want my real opinion, I think everything you've said is head canon and isn't supported and all, but I'll humor you I suppose.


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## Ishmael (Feb 13, 2019)

X III said:


> I think everything you've said is head canon and isn't supported and all, but I'll humor you I suppose.



Dedication and some good ass patience

Reactions: Like 1


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## X III (Feb 13, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Dedication and some good ass patience


Thanks.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 14, 2019)

X III said:


> Just as how there is no reason to believe he withdrew it later on.


YOU have to show that he did. I already proved that The head is what transforms.



X III said:


> Yes, so you think Nagato is close to Juubi Jin Tier. That's an argument at the same level as trolling.


No, Tobirama isnt JJ level yet he is able to slightly tussle with one because he has SPECIFIC abilities that allow him to do so. Nagato being under JJ in power doesnt mean he is CLOSE the them, but it does mean he is CLOSEST to them.



X III said:


> But it proves my point. Tanking a big explosion isn't like tanking a giant squeezing you. Kurama's Tails could incapacitate TBs, IIRC.


You still have to show me a time when a simple roar meant pain. His roars from the Rasneshuriken were different so good look proving he is in pain as simply being grabbed doesnt imply anything.



X III said:


> Except it's completely different because Mokujin is supported by a DB statement and has been withdrawn before when there was seemingly no reason to do so.


Where was it withdrawn? Show me that. And the DB statement says only the head is transformed so no.



X III said:


> Using some strong words there for something which hasn't been proven and is directly opposed by statements.
> 
> And yes, I can tell you to learn to read if you forget in the span of a post what my original point is. Just don't take it personally.


Except the statements support everything I said.

And I didn't forget a damn thing, you just assumed that a shockwave cutting through rock is more attack potent that a sword and shockwave traveling through something harder than steel.


X III said:


> It cut through layers of rocks and could send the Five Kage flying with shockwaves.
> 
> Anyway, I have nothing to prove if you legitimately think Nagato can survive a Perfect Susano'o attack without his own his attack. He got his arm ripped off by some fingers, got stabbed by the Totsuka Blade, and had to defend himself against Bee's blade.


I never said he could survive PS's attack. Where are you getting that? I'm saying that both Preta and ST neg a PS slice.


X III said:


> Yes, you can literally see the sharp finger.
> 
> If Itachi's Susano'o can move fast enough to cut Nagato's arm off with its nail, then Madara can do the same thing.


a finger is NOT sharp. What are you talking about? Nagato was also not able to SEE the attack while dealing with 2 other people. Context, bro.



X III said:


> Yes, so he was gravely injured, despite already covering himself in all his tails and using his and Hachibi's own TBB Barrages to lower the power of the attack.
> 
> Resurrection is irrelevant, it takes time and a Bijuu's death is counted as a loss.


How was he gravely injured? Missing tails is not him being gravely injured. And his attack did not lower the attack of the juubi. It is a stream. blocking a stream for a second doesnt lower the power of the stream. cause it continues to move forward unhindered and new energy flows past the TBB barrage and hits kyuubi.


X III said:


> If that was the reason, then it wouldn't be. Would certainly clear things up instead of talking about the Mokujin's offensive and defensive power.


They clearly take the mokujins sealing into account in that. But nowhere does it say or show that anything the Mokujin does even remotely compares to what kyuubi can.



X III said:


> But how can you be equal with me if I beat you? And how does suppression have to do with power if you already admitted it doesn't?


I'm saying in REALITY, suppression is not power. The manga will say something is equal yet not actually explain WHY it is. And this isn't even an argument, the manga shows that Hashirama can not defeat the kyuubi without sealing. So to assume he can is just dishonest.

Im saying being equals is an extremely vague term. because stats do not come into play in an argument of equality. So to say that Mokujin has equal stats simply because they are equals is ridiculous because it doesnt explain WHY they are equals. The manga shows that the only way Hashirama EVER stopped bijuu is with suppression.




X III said:


> If Perfect Susano'o is the construct that has stood next to and been used in literal fusion with Kurama out of all Tailed Beasts on three separate occasions, then odds are they are similar in power.


So, no basis in facts? just headcanon?

The filling of armor is not equal to the armor.



X III said:


> That's not what I meant in the first place. I was referring to this:
> 
> "cool, v4 susano<PS
> uncharged TBB<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Charged TBB."
> ...


Because it fucking IS. Are you serious??? The difference between the two is greater than V1 susano and a PS

this is
VS
this is

A TBB that simply double the size would require 8 fuckin times the chakra. A charged bijuudama is EXPONENTIALLY more powerful than a non charged one.


X III said:


> By thinking about it. If Katsuyu survives an attack, and if I think Hashirama/Madara are more durable or resilient than Katsuyu, then odds are they can survive it as well.
> 
> Yes, it burned Kurama and made him yell. The point was never that Perfect Susano'o can kill Kurama. It was that they're equals.


Katsuyu is a very durable thing, you would have to prove they are as durable as she is. you are saying think alot because you have no actual evidence.

It didn't "burn" him, it scuffed him up and he yelled, that is an attack on the same level as a PS slash. But PS doesnt have the same negative effects a FRS does. its just a cut that cant actually cut kyuubi.



X III said:


> And more potent Chakra is stronger. If Chakra transforms into armor, odds are that armor is stronger than some bones. Are you really going to tell me Madara's Ribcage can survive a Tailed Beast Ball?


More of something increases durability, so no, a ribcage could not survive a TBB. And no, you'd have to prove that it is stronger, you cant just say that Chakra armor is stronger than chakra bone.



X III said:


> Tailed Beasts need more feats to say that they'll just keep barraging PS with TBBs. If Kurama and Gyuki used 5 or 6, then odds are the rest won't use more than that. If Itachi parries a shuriken, he can also parry 4 or 5 more. Whether he can parry a shuriken enhanced by Raiton Chakra is another story.


They have the chakra capacity to do it no problem. They can also use focused tbbs which can also damage a PS. Regardless, a PS is not on the same level as kyuubi at all. It is never said to be, madara controls kyuubi with his eyes, he doesnt beat it into submission.



X III said:


> Two Tailed Beasts other than Gyuki have been hurt by piercing. Technically, all of them if you count the Rinnegan Rods.


That says something about the level of the attack, not the weakness of the bijuu.


X III said:


> But that's not the point. We're talking about durability, not resilience.


Sure, doesn't matter, Shukaku wouldnt be the most durably bijuu anyway, he is made of sand. just like i wouldnt assume Saiken is super durable as he is a slug. Regardless, that is a missve frog slamming his sword into you, that isnt a negative for Shukaku.


X III said:


> The stronger a user is, the stronger their attacks are as well. I don't deny this. Point is PS is strong enough to do so.
> 
> Black Zetsu stabbed Madara with a Rikudou enhanced body.


You are denying this, you are saying that Matatabi is weak because she was pierced by hidan. But hidan IS strong. So he should be able to do that. Can madara do that with PS, sure, is it going to kill a TB? doubtful. Matatabi fought hidan for the better part of an entire day. He didnt just stab her once and win. he fought her for a long ass time.

A dying rikudou body. so weak he cant even deal with kakashi and minato.


X III said:


> Deidara had Tobi help him, so it's possible Kakuzu fought as well. But it's irrelevant.


Deidara is also the lone rule breaker in this situation as well. He also breaks the rules and says he will be the one to capture Naruto instead of sasori.
Kakuzu actually lets hidan fight alone whenever he wants to. there is no reason to assume they did together.
Akatsuki arent even on teams because of bijuu hunting, they are on teams to prevent betrayal. Otherwise they 1v1 bijuu.


X III said:


> Weapons and users can both be powerful. Whether getting cut is a weakness or a feat for the weapon is irrelevant, unless you believe Hidan's Scythe is stronger than Madara's Susano'o.


Considering Hidan didn't immedietly wound Matatabi you dont know when or if he even did. As far as we know he simply outlasted her and then cut her up.



X III said:


> Gyuki: Survived indirect explosion of Juubi's TBB.
> Sanbi: Knocked over by a C1.
> 
> So you're saying the other Tailed Beasts are weaker than Gyuki.


Knocked over by a guy who can assist is flipping an island turtle, something that dwarfs the sanbi. Something madara has no feats to match.



X III said:


> You're taking what I said too literally. I'm aware of this scene, but I don't need to clarify that he grabbed a tail and tossed him to the ground, hence why I used "pushed" instead.
> 
> And I feel you're going around in circles here. At moments, you're saying these sorts of feats are irrelevant because they deal no damage. At other times, you're hyping them up.


When you say he pushed Kyuubi to the ground when I say he threw his ass to the ground. you are being dishonest. But then you turn around and say Kyuubi is equal to something he is clearly above based on nothing but a vague statement.


X III said:


> How would it be relevant, unless you think SM Naruto can survive an explosion or dodge it?


Sage naruto can dodge Raikage from close up, so yeah, no problems.


X III said:


> You were the one who brought up the feat.


Yes, But you are saying that since he was knocked over by a combo attack that somehow makes him weaker than kyuubi when a weaker SM naruto can toss Kyuubi around like nothing. alone.


X III said:


> Or it just became the Juubi and recovered moments afterwards.


Juubi has instant healing now?


X III said:


> Based on? A KN1 boost could allow Hinata to push back Juubi Tails and allowed fodder to survive Tenpenchi.


Hiashi alone was able to do the same thing unboosted. Bases on feats against the Mazo. KN1 choji simpled grabbed a tail whereas butterfly choji was able to push back the whole mazo.


X III said:


> Combo didn't seem like it took much effort. In fact, it seemed as though they had no trouble at all. So much to the point Obito had to step in.


 A 4 person combo require more coordination yet less effort than a 2 person combo. If it was just Naruto and Bee it would have been far more difficult.



X III said:


> Agreed, although the feat seems to be an inconsistency.


 More like the Mazo has more power in his arms then juubi has split through his arms and 10 tails.



X III said:


> He used the chains of the Gedo Mazo.


Yes, But the mazo had already been primed to take loads of chakra, pain had to seal them slow as to not crack the mazo. not saying Nagato could use the chains, but there is a reason Madara was able to seal them quickly. The mazo also, still has chakra at that point


X III said:


> How do we know this?


Because The mazo had been sealed up and dormant for over 1000 years.


X III said:


> As I said, Nagato can use Animal Path to summon him to wherever he needs to be. He can fight alongside the Pains. It would have been useful in the battle against Naruto.


 Not effectively. Just like how Obito didn't fight at the same time. There is nothing saying he can use both the rikudou no jutsu AND use the same paths at the same time.



X III said:


> Sharingan is base for Kakashi because he literally can't deactivate it. The best he can do is cover it.
> 
> There's no point in separating physical stats. If we're talking about durability, why would we talk about base Madara's durability and not look at Susano'o? His Susano'o will always be referred to when talking about his physical stats. Just how it is. Same applies to Shurado. This entire argument has been meaningless to begin with, it's just a semantics game.
> 
> We agree that that Susano'o Madara > Shurado Nagato > base Madara > base Nagato (assuming emaciated) in physical strength? Alright, let's move on.


There is literally no logic in this whatsoever.


X III said:


> Pretty much the point. The Manga is too inconsistent to scale, so at best we can only make estimates. I've never understood why people pixel scale the Manga despite not even Kishimoto seeming to care about it. It's like buying your friend some ice cream when he doesn't want any.


No no, I'm saying the village legitimately grew. There is more of the village drawn as the manga progressed.

Either way inconsistent or not, the scale for all of Nagatos moves are greater than he founders.



X III said:


> My response is simply this: We agree to disagree regarding Hashirama and Madara's power, you seem to agree with pixel scaling while I don't.


 Then i ask you, what are you judging it off of?



X III said:


> CT, I think can be broken out of by Mokujin and PS (former you agree is physically on par with Kurama) which 50% KN8 broke out of.


KN8 is stronger than kurama. Sage mode was FAR stronger than 50  percent kyuubi. And kn6 and 8 SHIT on SM



X III said:


> You think KN6 TBB is better than what they have looking at its size relative to Konoha. Once again, inconsistent.


 not inconsistent. On a flat plane you can see things up to 3 km away. looking in massive crater you should be able to seee clear to the other side. Why couldnt Sakura and everyone else even see what was happening? Because they were so far away that the couldn't make them out. You can see a candle on a dark night from over 40 km away. KN6 was a massive explosion of energy and they couldnt even see it? and the fact that the village dwarfs mountains show that konoha isnt a simple 3 km.



X III said:


> I don't understand why you used the point KN6 was on the mantle layer as though it matters. If it was there, surely Hashirama/Madara would also be there.


That is a fair point. But Nagato wasn't using CT to its full capacity either.



X III said:


> The text wall with Naruto's different forms is a mess. My biggest issue is you contradicting yourself with Kurama (went from saying knocking a construct over is impressive, then saying it isn't then, saying it is. You claim KN6 > SM Naruto, but you didn't take into consideration that SM Naruto could have gotten stronger or is simply physically stronger.


I never changed my stance, you simply are not interpreting what I am saying correctly.



X III said:


> All of what has been bolded is stuff I won't debate, because our opinions are so different that it won't matter and will be a waste of time. So it's an agree to disagree.


I would agree if you weren't rejecting logic for Nagato only.



X III said:


> As far as the Gedo Mazo life force argument goes, if you want my real opinion, I think everything you've said is head canon and isn't supported and all, but I'll humor you I suppose.


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## strongestrinneganuser (Feb 15, 2019)

madara wins. i mean even at that point, he was the closest to hashirama in power. and hashirama>>>>nagato. so madara wins. madaras susanoo kills nagatos animals, madara is also much much smarter.


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## Euraj (Feb 15, 2019)

How the hell is this eight pages? Susanoo just drawing its damn sword did damage on the scale of Nagato's two most exhausting jutsu. How he could he possible handle Madara coming after him swinging for kills?


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Euraj said:


> How the hell is this eight pages? Susanoo just drawing its damn sword did damage on the scale of Nagato's two most exhausting jutsu. How he could he possible handle Madara coming after him swinging for kills?


What are you talking about? Cleaving a couple of mountains is NOTHING compared to busting a village or ripping a whole mountain range apart.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What are you talking about? Cleaving a couple of mountains is NOTHING compared to busting a village or ripping a whole mountain range apart.



Yet CST was tanked by miniature parts of Katsuyu who protected majority of Shinobi with lack of durability features whatsoever and actually absorbed the majority of the damage. KN8 Naruto even broke free from Pain's Chibaku Tensei despite Chibaku Tensei being composed of rocks from multiple mountains. There's no correlation whatsoever.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yet CST was tanked by miniature parts of Katsuyu who protected majority of Shinobi with lack of durability features whatsoever and actually absorbed the majority of the damage. KN8 Naruto even broke free from Pain's Chibaku Tensei despite Chibaku Tensei being composed of rocks from multiple mountains. There's no correlation whatsoever.


Huh??? That a durability feat for Katsuyu, She tanked a blast that make a crater several kilometers deep and 40 kilometers wide. 
Your logic is fucked up anyway. Katsuyu lived therefore CST is weak. If CST was weak, how did it make a crater bigger than 99.9 percent of attacks in naruto?

So KN8 broke the top layer of CT, so what? KN8 is much stronger than Kyuubi physically. SM Naruto can whip 50% kyuubi through the air yet KN6 was FAR stronger than SM naruto. In terms of power, KN8 is far stronger than almost anything we have seen.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Euraj (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What are you talking about? Cleaving a couple of mountains is NOTHING compared to busting a village or ripping a whole mountain range apart.


Susanoo didn't just "cleave a couple of mountains." He blew the tops off of an entire mountain range from several dozen miles away. Read again; he wasn't even close to them but he blew their peaks off and sent them flying. He didn't just cut threw them. The concussive force of just drawing the sword is even, if not greater than Shinra Tensei. Chibaku Tensei is a non-issue for three reasons: One, it's not instant and it's not going to work if Nagato is bisected. Two, FRS, Yasaka no Magatama, and an uncharged bijuudama blew the core up after it was already covered with debris. Madara going on a tear would do a lot more damage than that to the core especially if he acts immediately. Third, Nagato's Chibaku Tensei couldn't handle eight tails from 50% of Kurama. He'd arguably fail to contain Susanoo, let alone Iso Susanoo.

This is the best description I've seen of how this goes:



Ersa said:


> Madara makes his 2km Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> -He swings.
> -Nagato repels it with CST.
> ...


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2019)

How is this thread STILL going

How is any discussion regarding ANYONE on Nagatos level vs a Founder still going?

People be blind


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Euraj said:


> Susanoo didn't just "cleave a couple of mountains." He blew the tops off of an entire mountain range from several dozen miles away. Read again; he wasn't even close to them but he blew their peaks off and sent them flying. He didn't just cut threw them. The concussive force of just drawing the sword is even, if not greater than Shinra Tensei.


 And? It is nowhere near as powerful as pulverizing millions of times the amount of rock. CST makes any Madara attack look childish in comparison

Also, the mountains were NOT dozens of miles away, not even close.



Euraj said:


> Chibaku Tensei is a non-issue for three reasons: One, it's not instant and it's not going to work if Nagato is bisected. Two, FRS, Yasaka no Magatama, and an uncharged bijuudama blew the core up after it was already covered with debris. Madara going on a tear would do a lot more damage than that to the core especially if he acts immediately. Third, Nagato's Chibaku Tensei couldn't handle eight tails from 50% of Kurama. He'd arguably fail to contain Susanoo, let alone Iso Susanoo


First, lets understand the different between power and effectiveness. CT is MORE powerful than any attack in naruto other than Charged TBB. BUT, Is it effective against Madara? I dont think so, but madara would have to reach the core soon enough to cut it up or else he gets trapped.



Euraj said:


> This is the best description I've seen of how this goes:


Except a basic ST is calced at the same level of power. Plus Nagato just absorbs the sword as it comes down on him just like Kaguya did to sasuke. And if Madara attempts to use shockwave attacks he can just alternate between moving slightly to the side of the attack and ST. 

Either way, the Mazo starches PS.


WorldsStrongest said:


> How is this thread STILL going
> 
> How is any discussion regarding ANYONE on Nagatos level vs a Founder still going?
> 
> People be blind


I hope you don't bring this much bias to your judging. 
Calcs: Nagato
Portrayal: Nagato. This is arguable slightly as you may value some things higher than others.
Feats: Nagato
Hax: Nagato
Power: Nagato
Speed: Madara
Reaction time: Nagato
Summons: Tie
Amount of people slobbing on their dick: Madara

Nagato is better in so many ways over EMS Madara, It is not a fair comparison.


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## ThirdRidoku (Feb 16, 2019)

EMS Madara alone lolstomps and it takes ridiculous founder's downplay to claim otherwise. IF you add in mokuton, SM, and rinnegan for Madara it's a ROFLSTOMP.

-Casually busts DISTANT MOUNTAINS  in half with the air pressure generated from his PS swings. The 5 kage were pushed back by the wind and the uplifting of rocks, and he wasn't even aiming his blade at them. Nagato needs to bleed, shorten his lifespan, and expend tremendous amounts of stamina to replicate what EMS Madara can CASUALLY do.


-Clearly can use Deva Path on a much greater scale than Nagato can. Madara casually summons TWO METEORS with no chakra strain at all. Nagato, who was white haired, but still, could only summon a large boulder in comparison during automatic edo tensei control. Madara had hashirama cells and six paths chakra when he did so, but we know Madara scales to hashirama in chakra reserves based on the fact they have battled each other for TWENTY FOUR hours twice and both of them are always tired,  (Hashirama always has noticeably more in the tank) but still. Even with Madara's buffs he was only able to become EQUAL with Hashirama as they stalemated each other as Edos, with Madara gaining an edge once he was revived and hashirama stated that Madara gained a huge power boost after the rinne tensei.

-And we all know Hashirama lolstomps Nagato in chakra reserves. Hashirama casually resists Edo tensei control without even flexing, and it was DIRECTLY STATED that resisting edo tensei control is a feat of POWER/ chakra reserves.  Nagato got shit diff'd by that same control. Hashirama in BASE has more chakra than naruto plus of half of kyuubi and they were synced as a Perfect Jinchuriki as well. Pain was marveling at Kn8 Kurama's power rofl. Adding in Sage Mode boosts his strength and chakra reserves a ton, and Madara was portrayed to be close to his level even with those buffs.  


-Madara in old age can casually wield two rinnegan, and passively using it taxes someone like OBITO ( who has ridiculous reserves AND ALSO has HASHI CELLS) to the point he can't wield two simultaneously.

-So yeah, ignore any clowns you see claiming that Nagato has more chakra than Madara. Madara shits on him in physical strength and stamina, and their respective ultimate techniques reflect it as well . CST isn't doing shit to Perfect Susano'o other than maybe pushing it back a few meters as it's a huge construct  and has alot of inertia, upon which madara roots his swords in the ground, braces the blow, and reflects shinra Tensei back at Nagato just like Kn6 did, which likely will one shot Nagato. Madara can follow it up with a PS slash to ensure Nagato goes down for good. Nagato is barely pushing back PS, let alone busting it.

-Perfect Susano'o  only gave in to an attack that shits on Nagato, hard. Hashirama literally created a LONG, DEEP, and WIDE VALLEY. Easily deeper than Nagato's Konoha dual crater, and we haven't even seen the full length of it. Refer to Chapters 220-230 as well as Chapters 693-697, and make sure you wear your eye contacts or glasses if you can't see, because Hashirama's feat is MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE assuming you have functional eyesight, considering much of his energy was used in busting one of the top three defenses in the manga. Meanwhile Nagato merely pushed back a bunch of katsuyu protected villagers and smashed buildings that aren't anywhere near as sturdy as PS to the outskirts of the village. Large area of effect obviously because he is emitting a gravity wave from his body/hands in all directions and manipulaing space time curvature.

Chibaku Tensei isn't as impressive either because gravity obviously has a huge area of effect, and he doesn't need that much energy to rip a bunch of trees and rocks out of the ground compared to what Hashirama needed to output to completely strip off a huge chunk of PS, and his attack was WEAKENED by 12 bijuu damas that were flying into the upper atmosphere and intercepting a shit ton of his buddha hands. Nagato isn't busting madara 's  durable af PS in this universe, nor the next.

-Combat experience. Madara fought EVERY DAY in the most brutal and extensive war in shinobi history against many ninjas INCLUDING the God of shinobi himself. His experience per day shits on Nagato, and while Madara isn't a genius, he was still a prodigy capable of defeating adult senjus at a  young age and is clearly highly talented. Most of Nagato's talent came from Madara's eyes in the first place, meanwhile Madara has a lot more skill. Madara also has sharingan which grants eidetic memory, high levels of perception and high level mimickry (Sasuke can perfectly copy rock lee's hard earned taijutsu with just a month of sharingan-aided physical training) in additon to eye of insight, so he can perfectly replicate many tactics and strategies that Nagato's hasn't seen at all, since Nagato himself isn't a genius and has way less experience in comparison. Madara also has full knowledge on the rinnegan, so no blindsides. Not being fooled by the invisible chameleon. Can easily create counter measures for Preta Path, and Susano'o in general is too fast for Nagato to handle, Itachi easily blitzed him while Nagato's attention was only moderately misdirected. Threw kunai from quite a distance away and blinded Nagato's summons. Except, we have seen that Nagato shares images with his summons and he essentially has 3 angles of view whereas normal people can only see one frame of view. Two of his security cameras went dark, so that is information in of itself that Itachi was coming, yet he couldn't prepare any kind of defense in time/try to figure out where Itachi was coming from to stop a GIANT ASS HAND SLIDING ON THE GROUND NEXT TO HIM.  Preta path isn't invincible. In it's DEBUT, Nagato absored Jiraiya's oil then immediately turned it off, and had to reactivate it to absorb the rasengan. No rinnegan user has kept Preta Path turned on 24/7, and they also don't seem to have the ability to move on their own accord while using it. If anyone had plot armor in the Jiraiya vs Pain fight, it was PAIN , no way  Jiraiya  was coming out of alive, he had to die for naruto's development, and STILL, Nagato couldn't keep Preta turned on 24/7, so no plot armor involved.  He has to react every time to reactivate it, which is a huge weakness.


Madara can feint Nagato with a giant Katon, force him to absorb it and block his line of sight, then follow it up with a PS Slash from his blindspot and the air pressure alone would obliterate Nagato. Madara can also control his swords telekinetically, as we clearly saw him do against Shukaku and Gaara. Kick up smokescreens with Yakasa Matagama and stun Nagato by boxing him in with them but don't aim them directly at Nagato cause then they will just be absorbed..  Boomerang a sword into Nagato's blindspot while he is stunned. Nagato's sensing isn't perfect, he has been blindsided many times in the canon. All the other summons can be stunned by beads as well.

-Close quarters. Madara is physically stronger, physically faster, better reflexes (casually reacts to V2 Ayy despite being distracted by lava meanwhile Nagato got blitzed by V2 Bee, who is canonically slower but comparable in speed to v2 ayy), EMS Sharingan: Choko Tomoe. Stated to give the user even greater fluidity of movement. That means it boosts Madara's kinetic vision, increases the predictability of Nagato's muscle contractions, and allows him to easily match Nagato in taijutsu flawlessly. Nagato's six arms aren't tagging Madara in this universe, nor the next. Madara cuts through the fleshy parts of Shurado(which we know exist because we have seen shurado bleeding before) with his scythe with ease. Madara is also more experienced and skilled, he is a bukinjutsu master, and Nagato isn't at all a taijutsu specialist.

-Genjutsu. Don't listen to any trolls/clowns who claim that the Rinnegan is immune to genjutsu. It started with a gross misunderstanding of the relationship between sharingan and rinnegan. Someone with indira's and ashura's chakra can evolve their sharingan/MS sharingan into rinnegan but unlike Sharingan and MS sharingan, the Rinnegan loses it's tomoe and generates a ripple pattern and CLEARLY does not share any of the abilities of the MS Sharingan. Madara has to switch between MS sharingan and rinnegan to use their respective abilities, as clearly shown when had to to switch to MS to cast genjutsu on Ayy.   End Game Sasuke is an OUTLIER. First of all, his rinnegan has TOMOE on them so it's a rinnegan-MS hybrid, as clearly shown when he cast genjutsu through it and also use AMATERASU with it. Secondly, it's clearly stated  and shown in the Viz that his Rinnegan BOOSTED SUSANO'O BLOCKED THE LIGHT of Mugen Tsykuyomi. The genjutsu was never transmitted to him in the first place. He isn't immune, as Sasuke HIMSELF said that if he stepped outside and got hit by the light he would have been caught as well. By the logic of these Nagato trolls, Kurenai also "resisted" Tsykuyomi from Itachi because she closed her eyes which prevented her from being caught in the first place. Blocking the medium through which genjutsu is transmitted =/=  breaking the genjutsu once it hijacks your nervous system period. There is no EVIDENCE AT ALL that the rinnegan resists genjutsu, it's all fan made, and back when  Databook 4 was first translated, all kinds of tards released fake translations claiming the rinnegan is immune to genjutsu, its BS. Nagato got one shotted by Jiraiya's genjutsu, his rinnegan never resisted any genjutsu ever.
Madara's EMS Sharingan Genjutsu one shots, and that's that.

Rinnegan doesn't even  directly share any other abilities with the sharingan. Different chakra seeing capabilites. Sharingan can see on the microscopic level, can see the wavelengths of chakra radiation coming from objects hidden behind limestone, hidden underground, hidden in smokescreens, hidden by amaterasu, etc. The only thing the sharingan struggles with seems to be seeing through water,  as Kakashi struggled with the hidden mist and Itachi couldn't see through Kakashi's water wall, and in some cases it can't easily distinguish larges amounts of chakra with the identical color in the same location. Meanwhile Nagato can't see through fireballs and can't see smokescreens, as per canon. No evidence of genjutsu resistance, no evidence of the ability to cast genjutsu, no evidence of kinetic vision, no evidence of the ability to predict muscle contractions. Different doujutsu, period.

- Shinra Tensei gets overpowered and reflected back at Nagato, but Bansho Tenin is also countered easily. Madara can create Susano'o swords on the fly to root himself in the ground. Nagato bringing Madara in close increases the probability of genjutsu. Madara has his gunbai for defense and Uchiha Reflection can reflect Nagato's lasers or missiles back at him. Madara isn't stupid enough to open with Susano'o immediately anyway. He would let Nagato bansho Tenin him first, THEN form Susano'o, as we have seen in those cases Susano'o will follow the user as they move.  So yeah, Bansho Tenin isn't doing anything, especially when Madara can spit out burning ash to create a smokescreen as he speeds toward Nagato, and even when Nagato absorbs jutsu like that, the preta barrier still creates an additional smokescreen, and the next time he sees Madara eye contact will happen for sure, Genjutsu GG.

-The Dog summon is an issue but Madara doesn't have to deal with it directly, just kill Nagato and be done with it, and Madara has shadow clones/wood clones that can keep it occupied.

- If you want to give Nagato Gedo Mazou, then  EMS Madara gets Kurama, period. And Even Kurama solos ROFL. Kurama has mastery over nature energy. We already saw in the canon that absorbing too much senjutsu chakra fucks Nagato up as we clearly saw in the Viz. He can only absorb so much senjutsu chakra before he turns to stone. Kurama is  a force of nature and has incredible chakra reserves. He fires 12 bijuu dama, Nagato absorbs them and turns to stone, period. GG. Kurama easily overpowers Nagato in general as well.

-Chibaku Tensei. ROFL.  Negged by PS with ease. Mountain busting sword strike blasts the core into oblivion. Using this technique is the definition of overextension for Nagato, drains him, makes him bleed and huff and puff, requires him to deactivate his summons, debatedly turns off his other paths because he had to turn off his shurado arms to activate it as an Edo.

Madara literally outclasses Nagato in every way, it's a STOMP if you have read past the Pain Arc lmao. Madara has a tendency to not go all out, but that's only against opponents he knows nothing about. As soon as he realized how strong Naruto and Sasuke became, he took a more analytical and cautious approach.  As soon as the 5 kage showed they were worthy, he was ready to end the fight. Madara chose Nagato to be the Third Ridoku, so  no underestimation is happening either, madara knows about the dangers of the rinnegan and he isn't a moron.


Nagato is strong and closer to the founder level than almost everyone else (god tiers excluded), but he isn't touching Madara or Hashi, period.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> -Casually busts DISTANT MOUNTAINS in half with the air pressure generated from his PS swings. The 5 kage were pushed back by the wind and the uplifting of rocks, and he wasn't even aiming his blade at them. Nagato needs to bleed, shorten his lifespan, and expend tremendous amounts of stamina to replicate what EMS Madara can CASUALLY do.


It terms of total power output? No, its equal to a basic ST.
Nagato needs to bleed to DRAMATICALLY outclass that feat.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -Clearly can use Deva Path on a much greater scale than Nagato can. Madara casually summons TWO METEORS with no chakra strain at all. Nagato, who was white haired, but still, could only summon a large boulder in comparison during automatic edo tensei control. Madara had hashirama cells and six paths chakra when he did so, but we know Madara scales to hashirama in chakra reserves based on the fact they have battled each other for TWENTY FOUR hours twice and both of them are always tired, (Hashirama always has noticeably more in the tank) but still. Even with Madara's buffs he was only able to become EQUAL with Hashirama as they stalemated each other as Edos, with Madara gaining an edge once he was revived and hashirama stated that Madara gained a huge power boost after the rinne tensei.


The meteor jutsu is not the same as Bansho tenin.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -And we all know Hashirama lolstomps Nagato in chakra reserves. Hashirama casually resists Edo tensei control without even flexing, and it was DIRECTLY STATED that resisting edo tensei control is a feat of POWER/ chakra reserves. Nagato got shit diff'd by that same control. Hashirama in BASE has more chakra than naruto plus of half of kyuubi and they were synced as a Perfect Jinchuriki as well. Pain was marveling at Kn8 Kurama's power rofl. Adding in Sage Mode boosts his strength and chakra reserves a ton, and Madara was portrayed to be close to his level even with those buffs.


 It doesnt matter if he has more chakra. Nagato absorbs chakra.
And Hanzo resisted Edo control without having TB levels of chakra.
Plus, what does chakra level have to do with anything? All the jinchuriki had more chakra than the guys that beat them. Kurama has more chakra than Madara and Hashirama, yet they both can still "Beat" him. It is a worthless point.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -Madara in old age can casually wield two rinnegan, and passively using it taxes someone like OBITO ( who has ridiculous reserves AND ALSO has HASHI CELLS) to the point he can't wield two simultaneously.


And Nagato wielded them with no issue in his youth. So kid Nagato>Old Madara>Obito



ThirdRidoku said:


> -So yeah, ignore any clowns you see claiming that Nagato has more chakra than Madara. Madara shits on him in physical strength and stamina, and their respective ultimate techniques reflect it as well . CST isn't doing shit to Perfect Susano'o other than maybe pushing it back a few meters as it's a huge construct and has alot of inertia, upon which madara roots his swords in the ground, braces the blow, and reflects shinra Tensei back at Nagato just like Kn6 did, which likely will one shot Nagato. Madara can follow it up with a PS slash to ensure Nagato goes down for good. Nagato is barely pushing back PS, let alone busting it.


Unless madara has the force to block an attack that hollowed out rock at the scale of 40 km wide and 4 km deep, no, he doesnt just get pushed a few meters. He gets obliterated. Show me that Madara can survive that attack.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -Perfect Susano'o only gave in to an attack that shits on Nagato, hard. Hashirama literally created a LONG, DEEP, and WIDE VALLEY. Easily deeper than Nagato's Konoha dual crater, and we haven't even seen the full length of it. Refer to Chapters 220-230 as well as Chapters 693-697, and make sure you wear your eye contacts or glasses if you can't see, because Hashirama's feat is MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE assuming you have functional eyesight, considering much of his energy was used in busting one of the top three defenses in the manga. Meanwhile Nagato merely pushed back a bunch of katsuyu protected villagers and smashed buildings that aren't anywhere near as sturdy as PS to the outskirts of the village. Large area of effect obviously because he is emitting a gravity wave from his body/hands in all directions and manipulaing space time curvature.


Assuming you have functional eye sight, what a shitbag comment. Talk like that once you win, sure, then you are just a poor winner. but to be wrong and say that before proving anything just makes you a garbage poster. seriously, save that shit for kindergarten.

Go ahead and calc the size of the VotE crater.
This is the crater
this is
Madara and Hashirama are seen at opposing sides. How the fuck is that even 1 fuckin percent the size of the CST crater?????????
And deeper???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that crater isnt even a half kilometer deep. Meanwhile the CST crater is KILOMETERS deep.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Chibaku Tensei isn't as impressive either because gravity obviously has a huge area of effect, and he doesn't need that much energy to rip a bunch of trees and rocks out of the ground compared to what Hashirama needed to output to completely strip off a huge chunk of PS, and his attack was WEAKENED by 12 bijuu damas that were flying into the upper atmosphere and intercepting a shit ton of his buddha hands. Nagato isn't busting madara 's durable af PS in this universe, nor the next.


This is proof that you have absolutely no idea on how to calculate anything. The energy to rip apart an entire mountain range that spans over 60 km is so far above a basic TBB it isn't even funny. SS is garbage in comparison.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Madara can feint Nagato with a giant Katon, force him to absorb it and block his line of sight, then follow it up with a PS Slash from his blindspot and the air pressure alone would obliterate Nagato. Madara can also control his swords telekinetically, as we clearly saw him do against Shukaku and Gaara. Kick up smokescreens with Yakasa Matagama and stun Nagato by boxing him in with them but don't aim them directly at Nagato cause then they will just be absorbed.. Boomerang a sword into Nagato's blindspot while he is stunned. Nagato's sensing isn't perfect, he has been blindsided many times in the canon. All the other summons can be stunned by beads as well.


You are so dick hard for feinting, seriously, If it was that easy it would work every time.

Madara isnt getting a feint past all of Nagatos extra eyes.
Also, when does madara fight like that at all?


ThirdRidoku said:


> -Close quarters. Madara is physically stronger, physically faster, better reflexes (casually reacts to V2 Ayy despite being distracted by lava meanwhile Nagato got blitzed by V2 Bee, who is canonically slower but comparable in speed to v2 ayy), EMS Sharingan: Choko Tomoe. Stated to give the user even greater fluidity of movement. That means it boosts Madara's kinetic vision, increases the predictability of Nagato's muscle contractions, and allows him to easily match Nagato in taijutsu flawlessly. Nagato's six arms aren't tagging Madara in this universe, nor the next. Madara cuts through the fleshy parts of Shurado(which we know exist because we have seen shurado bleeding before) with his scythe with ease. Madara is also more experienced and skilled, he is a bukinjutsu master, and Nagato isn't at all a taijutsu specialist.


V2 Bee is loads faster than A4. Base Bee is comparable to A4.
Madara isnt avoiding 6 arms that can blitz Bee, remember, Bee can react to FTG, even when suprised. But couldnt react to Asura. Nagato doesn thave to be a taijutsu specialist, Asura literally ripped Sage jiraiyas arm off with no effort. Threw Animal path in an arc 20 KM. Madara was outpowered by Raikage who is FAR weaker than Bee.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -Genjutsu. Don't listen to any trolls/clowns who claim that the Rinnegan is immune to genjutsu. It started with a gross misunderstanding of the relationship between sharingan and rinnegan. Someone with indira's and ashura's chakra can evolve their sharingan/MS sharingan into rinnegan but unlike Sharingan and MS sharingan, the Rinnegan loses it's tomoe and generates a ripple pattern and CLEARLY does not share any of the abilities of the MS Sharingan. Madara has to switch between MS sharingan and rinnegan to use their respective abilities, as clearly shown when had to to switch to MS to cast genjutsu on Ayy. End Game Sasuke is an OUTLIER. First of all, his rinnegan has TOMOE on them so it's a rinnegan-MS hybrid, as clearly shown when he cast genjutsu through it and also use AMATERASU with it. Secondly, it's clearly stated and shown in the Viz that his Rinnegan BOOSTED SUSANO'O BLOCKED THE LIGHT of Mugen Tsykuyomi. The genjutsu was never transmitted to him in the first place. He isn't immune, as Sasuke HIMSELF said that if he stepped outside and got hit by the light he would have been caught as well. By the logic of these Nagato trolls, Kurenai also "resisted" Tsykuyomi from Itachi because she closed her eyes which prevented her from being caught in the first place. Blocking the medium through which genjutsu is transmitted =/= breaking the genjutsu once it hijacks your nervous system period. There is no EVIDENCE AT ALL that the rinnegan resists genjutsu, it's all fan made, and back when Databook 4 was first translated, all kinds of tards released fake translations claiming the rinnegan is immune to genjutsu, its BS. Nagato got one shotted by Jiraiya's genjutsu, his rinnegan never resisted any genjutsu ever.
> Madara's EMS Sharingan Genjutsu one shots, and that's that.


When you talk this way and end up being wrong, it just makes you look bad.

Sasuke NEVER said he would have been caught by Mugen Tsukuyomi.
Black Zetsu literally says Sasukes Rinnegan is able to fight off Mugen Tsukuyomi.
But like I said before, go ahead and say Sasuke beats JJ Madara or edo Madara because he lost his Genjutsu defense. That's nonsense.

Plus, Sage genjutsu even works on an EMS, Sage genjutsu is clearly different.


ThirdRidoku said:


> - Shinra Tensei gets overpowered and reflected back at Nagato, but Bansho Tenin is also countered easily. Madara can create Susano'o swords on the fly to root himself in the ground. Nagato bringing Madara in close increases the probability of genjutsu. Madara has his gunbai for defense and Uchiha Reflection can reflect Nagato's lasers or missiles back at him. Madara isn't stupid enough to open with Susano'o immediately anyway. He would let Nagato bansho Tenin him first, THEN form Susano'o, as we have seen in those cases Susano'o will follow the user as they move. So yeah, Bansho Tenin isn't doing anything, especially when Madara can spit out burning ash to create a smokescreen as he speeds toward Nagato, and even when Nagato absorbs jutsu like that, the preta barrier still creates an additional smokescreen, and the next time he sees Madara eye contact will happen for sure, Genjutsu GG.


 The level of fanfiction you write is incredible.



ThirdRidoku said:


> -The Dog summon is an issue but Madara doesn't have to deal with it directly, just kill Nagato and be done with it, and Madara has shadow clones/wood clones that can keep it occupied.


That just make madara easier to kill.


ThirdRidoku said:


> - If you want to give Nagato Gedo Mazou, then EMS Madara gets Kurama, period. And Even Kurama solos ROFL. Kurama has mastery over nature energy. We already saw in the canon that absorbing too much senjutsu chakra fucks Nagato up as we clearly saw in the Viz. He can only absorb so much senjutsu chakra before he turns to stone. Kurama is a force of nature and has incredible chakra reserves. He fires 12 bijuu dama, Nagato absorbs them and turns to stone, period. GG. Kurama easily overpowers Nagato in general as well.


Except the gedo mazo took Kyuubis super Bijuu dama and was just peachy.
Kurama has Sage jutsu through naruto only. He is mindless without a jinchuriki.


ThirdRidoku said:


> -Chibaku Tensei. ROFL. Negged by PS with ease. Mountain busting sword strike blasts the core into oblivion. Using this technique is the definition of overextension for Nagato, drains him, makes him bleed and huff and puff, requires him to deactivate his summons, debatedly turns off his other paths because he had to turn off his shurado arms to activate it as an Edo.


 He doesnt have to deactivate any summons until they are in danger. He didn't HAVE to turn off his arms, he simply did. It's like saying Madara has to deactivate susano after his meteor is cast because he did. bad logic.

And Madara is the wrong opponet for CT to be used on. But if he doesnt reach the core quickly enough, he loses.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Madara literally outclasses Nagato in every way, it's a STOMP if you have read past the Pain Arc lmao. Madara has a tendency to not go all out, but that's only against opponents he knows nothing about. As soon as he realized how strong Naruto and Sasuke became, he took a more analytical and cautious approach. As soon as the 5 kage showed they were worthy, he was ready to end the fight. Madara chose Nagato to be the Third Ridoku, so no underestimation is happening either, madara knows about the dangers of the rinnegan and he isn't a moron.


You are insane, seriously, the shit you make up is wild. With retarded comments like "if you have read past the pain arc" i am amazed you can even have a simple debate with anyone.

Nagato was not CHOSEN to be the 3rd sage. Just like Obito wasnt the 4th sage. Nagatos mastery of the Rinnegan is what makes him the 3rd sage while Obito is not the 4th sage.
Nagato WAS chosen to have the Rinnegan. That does not mean he is the 3rd sage, just like how obito isnt the 3rd sage simply by possessing Rinnegan. Just like Zetsu isn't the 5th sage because he possessed Rinnegan. Just like Sasuke isn't the 6th sage simply by possessing the rinnegan.


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## X III (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> YOU have to show that he did. I already proved that The head is what transforms.


And you haven't proven the body was destroyed. 

Seriously, you're pretty much CREATING an inconsistency. If there is NO proof the body exploded, and if the DB explicitly states that they're equals, then nothing is contradicted. It's only if you choose to believe it was destroyed that an inconsistency is created.



kokodeshide said:


> No, Tobirama isnt JJ level yet he is able to slightly tussle with one because he has SPECIFIC abilities that allow him to do so. Nagato being under JJ in power doesnt mean he is CLOSE the them, but it does mean he is CLOSEST to them.


But you have explicitly stated before you think Nagato MIGHT be able to beat Juubito. If you think Nagato has even the smallest CHANCE at beating a Juubi Jin, and if you think he can hang around them and counter their abilities, then you're implying you think Nagato is close to Juubi Jin level.



kokodeshide said:


> You still have to show me a time when a simple roar meant pain. His roars from the Rasneshuriken were different so good look proving he is in pain as simply being grabbed doesnt imply anything.


Literally, why would he roar? If the hand did nothing, he wouldn't have been immobilized.

Like, Madara literally had him UNDER CONTROL and he didn't roar at all for the other parts of the fight.



kokodeshide said:


> Where was it withdrawn? Show me that. And the DB statement says only the head is transformed so no.


Databook also says Mokujin is literally on par with Kurama. Not sure how you missed that.

And yes, it was withdrawn unless you magically think it disappeared after suppressing Kurama.



kokodeshide said:


> Except the statements support everything I said.
> 
> And I didn't forget a damn thing, you just assumed that a shockwave cutting through rock is more attack potent that a sword and shockwave traveling through something harder than steel.


No, they don't. You're literally opposing a databook statement as your argument. Databook flat out STATES PS can break through steel. 

And of fucking course Madara's PS can do the same shit if Itachi's hand could slice off Nagato's arm. Nagato was scared of a normal fucking sword to the point he had to defend himself against it.



kokodeshide said:


> I never said he could survive PS's attack. Where are you getting that? I'm saying that both Preta and ST neg a PS slice.


Then why are you defending Nagato against piercing attacks? But if we both agree Nagato's durability can't fend off PS, then we agree. Nothing here.



kokodeshide said:


> a finger is NOT sharp. What are you talking about? Nagato was also not able to SEE the attack while dealing with 2 other people. Context, bro.


Bruh, the finger was sharp enough to cut his arm off.

And I was talking about durability here. 



kokodeshide said:


> How was he gravely injured? Missing tails is not him being gravely injured. And his attack did not lower the attack of the juubi. It is a stream. blocking a stream for a second doesnt lower the power of the stream. cause it continues to move forward unhindered and new energy flows past the TBB barrage and hits kyuubi.


Really? The dude was flat out missing tails. That's an injury if I've ever seen one. It's like saying getting your hand chopped off isn't being gravely injured.

And if you block a stream of water with your hand, the water is blocked. Of course Naruto and Bee didn't fully succeed, but they did amount to something at least, and this is completely ignoring there would be literally ZERO reason for them to have tried that attack if it didn't do anything.



kokodeshide said:


> They clearly take the mokujins sealing into account in that. But nowhere does it say or show that anything the Mokujin does even remotely compares to what kyuubi can.


But you literally just said in your other post that suppressing doesn't have shit to do with power. And suppression would have mentioned at least ONCE if it was literally 90% worth of Mokujin being on par with Kurama like you act it is.



kokodeshide said:


> I'm saying in REALITY, suppression is not power. The manga will say something is equal yet not actually explain WHY it is. And this isn't even an argument, the manga shows that Hashirama can not defeat the kyuubi without sealing. So to assume he can is just dishonest.


Literally, no. Deity Gates canonically pinned the Juubi down, and from there Hashi can literally punch him a thousand times with Shinsuusenju or poison him. Suppression isn't needed.



kokodeshide said:


> Im saying being equals is an extremely vague term. because stats do not come into play in an argument of equality. So to say that Mokujin has equal stats simply because they are equals is ridiculous because it doesnt explain WHY they are equals. The manga shows that the only way Hashirama EVER stopped bijuu is with suppression.


But the context is made apparent. It wouldn't talk about its offense and defense if they had jack shit to do with equality.



kokodeshide said:


> So, no basis in facts? just headcanon?
> 
> The filling of armor is not equal to the armor.


It's called "portrayal" my dude.. You asked for it. If Naruto and Sasuke fought alongside each other, then they're portrayed to be similar in power.

The idea that Kishimoto will just draw two constructs fighting alongside each other, only to reveal that one of them literally shits on the other, is laughable. In such cases, it's made apparent one is the weaker. But here, PS and Kurama literally fought together 3 fucking times..

Even fought AGAINST each other with Naruto vs Sasuke. If you removed Rikudou amps, it would have been 50% Kurama Jin vs Sasuke's PS. We know that Jinchuriki + Bijuu > Bijuu, so logically it would actually be > 50% Kurama that fought PS, although we don't know the exact extent.



kokodeshide said:


> Because it fucking IS. Are you serious??? The difference between the two is greater than V1 susano and a PS
> 
> this is
> VS
> ...


Bruh, that was Kurama AND Gyuki making a TBB together, first off, so it would be an exaggeration.

And even then, I literally agreed a charged TBB is >> normal TBB. I'm saying that you pulled the difference out of your ass in comparison to Susano'o. Legit the same shit as me saying 

"Sasuke Kusanagi >>>>>>>>>> Oro Kusanagi"
"Hashi > Yamato"

Obviously a hyperbole there, but you get the point. The difference you made up is a HUGE exaggeration. 



kokodeshide said:


> Katsuyu is a very durable thing, you would have to prove they are as durable as she is. you are saying think alot because you have no actual evidence.


I do. Overall, you'd have to provide a SHIT LOAD of evidence to say CST can kill Hashirama/Madara when they have Byakugou level regen, Mokuton, and PS.

As a reminder, fucking Tsunade in base survived that shit in addition to a fodder ANBU, although I concede they were at the edge of it (though they still took the attack). 

And we know Katsuyu could survive the rest. Even IF we said just for the sake of the argument that CST SOMEHOW manages to destroy Hashirama/Madara's constructs, you'd have to prove the attack still KILLS them, which we know an attack doesn't automatically do just because it gets rid of their constructs (refer to Itachi vs Kirin where his Susano'o is broken through, but he survives). 

Katsuyu's best feats? Survived a KN6 all the way until KN8 in her small form, which is amazing but do you REALLY think she's > fucking BYAKUGOU Tsunade? Do you REALLY think a PS can't tank a CST when it took a TBB with no issues, TBB having actual feats/statements to support them?? Do you REALLY think Mokuton can't survive that shit? Despite also tanking TBB and Susano'o slashes? 

This is also completely ignoring that Hashi/Madara can use their own attacks against the CST to at least somewhat weaken it. A shockwave, for example. 

So overall, the idea that a fucking CST is taking them down seems VERY skeptical to me. 



kokodeshide said:


> More of something increases durability, so no, a ribcage could not survive a TBB.


And yet a V4 could.



kokodeshide said:


> And no, you'd have to prove that it is stronger, you cant just say that Chakra armor is stronger than chakra bone.


It's common sense. That's like the same shit as saying V1 Cloaks are the same as V2...

You telling me Sasuke's ribcage is the same as his PS? That's asinine. 



kokodeshide said:


> They have the chakra capacity to do it no problem. They can also use focused tbbs which can also damage a PS.


Literally my point. Not so sure if a charged TBB can do anything, but it's worth a shot. No feats to really tell.



kokodeshide said:


> Regardless, a PS is not on the same level as kyuubi at all. It is never said to be, madara controls kyuubi with his eyes, he doesnt beat it into submission.


Wtf? Why would Madara fight Kurama if he wants to control him? 



kokodeshide said:


> That says something about the level of the attack, not the weakness of the bijuu.


So you telling me that Madara's PS can't replicate Rinnegan rods (despite his AURA deflecting them), Gamabunta's sword, and Hidan's scythe?



kokodeshide said:


> Sure, doesn't matter, Shukaku wouldnt be the most durably bijuu anyway, he is made of sand. just like i wouldnt assume Saiken is super durable as he is a slug. Regardless, that is a missve frog slamming his sword into you, that isnt a negative for Shukaku.


I know, but it's against the point. If all the Bijuu are shown to have been pierced, isn't it only logical Madara's PS can hurt them?



kokodeshide said:


> You are denying this, you are saying that Matatabi is weak because she was pierced by hidan. But hidan IS strong. So he should be able to do that. Can madara do that with PS, sure, is it going to kill a TB? doubtful. Matatabi fought hidan for the better part of an entire day. He didnt just stab her once and win. he fought her for a long ass time.
> 
> A dying rikudou body. so weak he cant even deal with kakashi and minato.


No, I'm NOT denying it. I agree 100%. My entire point is that if lessers can do it, then PS can also do it. 

That was Obito BEFORE he got Rikudou Chakra from Madara.



kokodeshide said:


> Considering Hidan didn't immedietly wound Matatabi you dont know when or if he even did. As far as we know he simply outlasted her and then cut her up.


Seems to be extremely unlikely. You telling me Kakuzu and Hidan lasted that ENTIRE time? And a Bijuu has a shit ton of Chakra, so how would Hidan even outlast?



kokodeshide said:


> Knocked over by a guy who can assist is flipping an island turtle, something that dwarfs the sanbi. Something madara has no feats to match.


That's literally not the point. Point is a weaker Bijuu has trouble with a weaker attack than what Gyuki dealt with.



kokodeshide said:


> When you say he pushed Kyuubi to the ground when I say he threw his ass to the ground. you are being dishonest. But then you turn around and say Kyuubi is equal to something he is clearly above based on nothing but a vague statement.


Seriously, what the fuck? Do I have to FULLY describe a scene in order to be deemed honest? Apparently there's ANY noticeable difference between "pushed to the ground and thrown to the ground" that is big enough to call me dishonest. Jesus Christ, dude. I was literally referring to that exact same thing. You seriously think I'd claim some stupid shit and pass it off as if it's right? You know me better than that. 



kokodeshide said:


> Sage naruto can dodge Raikage from close up, so yeah, no problems.


Naruto's moving his body out of the way of a giant explosion coming his way while in midair? Let's say he does that. What does he do with the next one? 

I agree if you say SM Naruto could compete with Kurama physically, but he would have gotten shat on by a TBB if Kurama resorted to actually using that.



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, But you are saying that since he was knocked over by a combo attack that somehow makes him weaker than kyuubi when a weaker SM naruto can toss Kyuubi around like nothing. alone.


50% Kurama.

No TBBs involved.

Gedo Mazo got knocked down unable to fight anymore, Kurama could still fight.

SM and KCM aren't physical equals (SM is widely renowned as stronger physically).



kokodeshide said:


> Juubi has instant healing now?


Possibly. Strongest Bijuu, Kurama had healing.

Also transformation healing exists. Remember when Obito got his heart back?



kokodeshide said:


> A 4 person combo require more coordination yet less effort than a 2 person combo. If it was just Naruto and Bee it would have been far more difficult.


But Kakashi and Guy barely did anything. 



kokodeshide said:


> More like the Mazo has more power in his arms then juubi has split through his arms and 10 tails.


So you're pretty much saying the husk is > husk + 9 Bijuu. Gotcha.

Didn't know the Bijuu were negatives in power.



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, But the mazo had already been primed to take loads of chakra, pain had to seal them slow as to not crack the mazo. not saying Nagato could use the chains, but there is a reason Madara was able to seal them quickly. The mazo also, still has chakra at that point


How does it have Chakra? How is it primed to take loads of Chakra? Any Manga evidence?



kokodeshide said:


> Not effectively. Just like how Obito didn't fight at the same time. There is nothing saying he can use both the rikudou no jutsu AND use the same paths at the same time.


Doesn't need to.

And why wouldn't Nagato remove the Chakra Rods if he no longer needed them for the Mazo. 



kokodeshide said:


> There is literally no logic in this whatsoever.


Literally, no.



kokodeshide said:


> No no, I'm saying the village legitimately grew. There is more of the village drawn as the manga progressed.


Seems to be the exact opposite. The village seen in the Orochimaru arc was BY FAR more impressive than in the Nine Tails attack or Pain Arc.



kokodeshide said:


> Then i ask you, what are you judging it off of?


Common sense.



kokodeshide said:


> KN8 is stronger than kurama. Sage mode was FAR stronger than 50 percent kyuubi. And kn6 and 8 SHIT on SM


Either that, or Naruto simply got stronger and had a great advantage against Kurama due to infinite SM.

Or 50% Kurama never fought Naruto to his full extent. 

Or both.

And oh boy, KN8 can't be stronger than 50% Kurama if KN9 Kurama (i.e. Kurama breaking out of Naruto's body) literally IS Kurama. That's a literal fallacy.



kokodeshide said:


> not inconsistent. On a flat plane you can see things up to 3 km away. looking in massive crater you should be able to seee clear to the other side. Why couldnt Sakura and everyone else even see what was happening? Because they were so far away that the couldn't make them out. You can see a candle on a dark night from over 40 km away. KN6 was a massive explosion of energy and they couldnt even see it? and the fact that the village dwarfs mountains show that konoha isnt a simple 3 km.


 



kokodeshide said:


> That is a fair point. But Nagato wasn't using CT to its full capacity either.


He LITERALLY collapses because of how much Chakra he expended.



kokodeshide said:


> I never changed my stance, you simply are not interpreting what I am saying correctly.


Bruh, please. You haven't even ADDRESSED IT. And you FLAT OUT changed stances.

"hurr durr not impressive he didn't do damage."
"but look that this tho! naruto knocked around Kurama"



kokodeshide said:


> I would agree if you weren't rejecting logic for Nagato only.


Please follow your own advice. Not sure how you even come to the conclusion Nagato is stronger than Hashirama/Madara, not only from a feats standpoint but ALSO a portrayal standpoint despite Hashirama flat out breaking ET binding or being known as the God of Shinobi or being so powerful that everybody wanted his powers or Madara claiming only Hashirama can beat him when he referred to Nagato as a simple brat. Not sure how you think Nagato > Madara when Madara was Kabuto's trump card or when Nagato got his eyes from Madara or when Madara is flat out SUPPOSED to be stronger than Nagato as per laws of common sense due to being the next villain, which is the case 99.9% of the time, especially in Mangas made for 11 year olds.

Like, seriously. The ENTIRE fanbase arrived to the conclusion that Hashi/Madara beat Nagato. Are you REALLY going to tell me you're some top genius who unveiled the truths of the Manga, or are you just delusional when it comes to Nagato and Hashirama/Madara? 

You accept the ONE feat from Nagato where he dispels an FRS, then use an outlier FRS feat in order to gauge Nagato's true power. Legit, Naruto has ONLY ever showed that much DC with a normal FRS ONCE, and yet you take it as far more credible than the other feats, which take the majority. 

Pain could repel FRS, yet he failed to kill Kakashi with ST, got his ST resisted by KN6, failed to kill SM, got partially countered by Chakra to feet, and even failed against BASE NARUTO just with some KB backups. Sure, he got through boss toads, although those mfs have no durability feats, boss summons actually seem to be fucking weaker considering SM Jiraiya kicked Cerberus around yet got intercepted by Pain no diff.. AND we have SM Naruto surviving ST when boss summons got ragdolled.

Anyway, no offense meant by any of this. Just my honest opinion. If you want my true opinion, I will NEVER accept Nagato > Madara/Hashirama simply going by the themes of the Manga. According to the Manga, Hashirama/Madara are the top a Shinobi can reach without some god powers like TTJ or Eight Gates. It's just what's instilled into me and the other people who read the Manga. You can try as hard as you are able, but you won't be able to convince anybody, because your arguments are far fetched and go against what the Manga implies and states. I'll still debate you, but you won't have good chances at all in convincing me.



kokodeshide said:


>


----------



## Kagutsutchi (Feb 21, 2019)

Can't believe some clowns think a shockwave is killing nagato when he tanked a bijuudama and his shinra tensei prior.


----------



## kokodeshide (Feb 22, 2019)

X III said:


> And you haven't proven the body was destroyed.
> 
> Seriously, you're pretty much CREATING an inconsistency. If there is NO proof the body exploded, and if the DB explicitly states that they're equals, then nothing is contradicted. It's only if you choose to believe it was destroyed that an inconsistency is created


Dude, the body wasn't there anymore. There is no other proof needed. You have to proof it wasn't destroyed.

And there is no inconsistency, because Hashirama was winning, Madara interfered allowing the tbb to detonate close up. So there is NO inconsistency.



X III said:


> But you have explicitly stated before you think Nagato MIGHT be able to beat Juubito. If you think Nagato has even the smallest CHANCE at beating a Juubi Jin, and if you think he can hang around them and counter their abilities, then you're implying you think Nagato is close to Juubi Jin level.


Madara implied he could do the same shit. And considering Zetsu pieced Madara, I dont feel like it isnt too far fetched to say that. But in noy way am i saying it is LIKELY he could, just that he has pathways.


X III said:


> Literally, why would he roar? If the hand did nothing, he wouldn't have been immobilized.


What? he roared because he was grabbed. if someone grabbed you you might be like wtf. That means nothing at all. His pain yells aren't even roars anyway.



X III said:


> Like, Madara literally had him UNDER CONTROL and he didn't roar at all for the other parts of the fight.


bellowing smoke or vapor out straight up from the superheated area
Wrapped up by a move that can defeat him.
Link removed
irritated

Not roars.This is such a dumb point, seriously.




X III said:


> Databook also says Mokujin is literally on par with Kurama. Not sure how you missed that.
> 
> And yes, it was withdrawn unless you magically think it disappeared after suppressing Kurama.


Withdrawn to where, bro? And you never have the opportunity to even see what happened to it. Why would it be withdrawn anyway, you think they are just permasealed with a head tap?



X III said:


> No, they don't. You're literally opposing a databook statement as your argument. Databook flat out STATES PS can break through steel.
> 
> And of fucking course Madara's PS can do the same shit if Itachi's hand could slice off Nagato's arm. Nagato was scared of a normal fucking sword to the point he had to defend himself against it.


Kimimaros bones are alot harder than steel, and these were sage enhanced.




X III said:


> Then why are you defending Nagato against piercing attacks? But if we both agree Nagato's durability can't fend off PS, then we agree. Nothing here.


 I dont think I was. All im saying is nagato can tank a V2 Lariat with no damage. Nagato cannot just tank a PS slash. he blocks it or absorbs it.



X III said:


> Bruh, the finger was sharp enough to cut his arm off.
> 
> And I was talking about durability here.


no it wasnt. a train can "cut" of your arm. You are mistakes shearing and cutting.



X III said:


> Really? The dude was flat out missing tails. That's an injury if I've ever seen one. It's like saying getting your hand chopped off isn't being gravely injured.
> 
> And if you block a stream of water with your hand, the water is blocked. Of course Naruto and Bee didn't fully succeed, but they did amount to something at least, and this is completely ignoring there would be literally ZERO reason for them to have tried that attack if it didn't do anything.


Hand? Gyuuki lost tails no problem. You even said yourself that Kurama regenerates no problem.

Your second point is ridiculous. How could they POSSIBLY know they wouldn't have had an effect? You are saying that simply trying to defend yourself means you successfully did something. Bullshit.
And they didn't block the water stream, they INTERRUPT the stream when then continues unhindered right after. same attack, same lethality. Horrible example.



X III said:


> But you literally just said in your other post that suppressing doesn't have shit to do with power. And suppression would have mentioned at least ONCE if it was literally 90% worth of Mokujin being on par with Kurama like you act it is.


The manga repeatedly mentions hashiramas suppression. Does the Mokujin have Juubidama level durability? No. Does the Mokujin have Country level attacks? No. Could the Mokujin Blitz SM Naruto? Doubt it. Could the Mokujin supress chakra? Yes Is that what he was trying to do to kyuubi? Yes. So wtf are you talking about?



X III said:


> Literally, no. Deity Gates canonically pinned the Juubi down, and from there Hashi can literally punch him a thousand times with Shinsuusenju or poison him. Suppression isn't needed.


 And what is the SS going to do to the Juubi? Punch him alot? the Juubi tanks his own Bijuudama INSIDE himself, contained. Dramatically amplifying the yield. And he also tanked a combpressed Juubidama on himself, no effect at all. The SS would not do a FUCKING THING to the Juubi. Or Kyuubi for that matter.



X III said:


> But the context is made apparent. It wouldn't talk about its offense and defense if they had jack shit to do with equality.


offense isn't just powerful jutsu, it is also sealing, chakra absorption, BFR, Genjutsu.


And you may think, well, it was close. Nope, not even. none of these were close. At all.


X III said:


> It's called "portrayal" my dude.. You asked for it. If Naruto and Sasuke fought alongside each other, then they're portrayed to be similar in power.
> 
> The idea that Kishimoto will just draw two constructs fighting alongside each other, only to reveal that one of them literally shits on the other, is laughable. In such cases, it's made apparent one is the weaker. But here, PS and Kurama literally fought together 3 fucking times..
> 
> Even fought AGAINST each other with Naruto vs Sasuke. If you removed Rikudou amps, it would have been 50% Kurama Jin vs Sasuke's PS. We know that Jinchuriki + Bijuu > Bijuu, so logically it would actually be > 50% Kurama that fought PS, although we don't know the exact extent.


NOPE. Not true. Rarely has been true.

Bee shits on KCM, they fought together.

Itachi outclassed sasuke in the Kabuto fight. they fought together.

Naruto alone was a threat to Juubito. Sasuke needed a KN cloak and Juugos Curse mark to help him.

RSM Naruto would have thrashed Rinnegan sasuke too, Sasuke needed all 9 TB in his Susano to equal Naruto. The gap was HUGE.

Tobirama and hashirama fought together, not equals. Orochimaru and Hiruzen briefly fought together, not equals.

The 5 kage fought side by side, not equals.

Naruto and Sasuke fought haku together, not equals.

Any bell test had people fighting together, no equals there.

Rookie 9 fought together, their power is all over the place.



X III said:


> Bruh, that was Kurama AND Gyuki making a TBB together, first off, so it would be an exaggeration.
> 
> And even then, I literally agreed a charged TBB is >> normal TBB. I'm saying that you pulled the difference out of your ass in comparison to Susano'o. Legit the same shit as me saying
> 
> ...


 No it isn' The difference between V4 Susano and then next level up isnt a huge difference. The difference of a small TBB and a big tbb is literally a difference of over 10000 times the amount of chakra. Basic geometry. Everytime a sphere doubles it volumes multiplies by 8. That's exponential growth.
So a TBB a foot wide has 8 fuckin times less chakra of a TBB 2 feet wide. A TBB 4 feet wide has 8 times the chakra of a a TBB 2 feet wide and 64 times more than a TBB 1 foot wide, ya dig? All i did was quadruple the size of the TBB and I have 64 fuckin times the chakra. And gyuuki contributed next to nothing. 5 bijuu together charging barely made a big TBB and Gyuuki is their level. He contributed no more than 1/6th of the TBB.
A v4 susano is nearly the same size as a PS. Unless im forgetting some form in between V4 and PS



X III said:


> I do. Overall, you'd have to provide a SHIT LOAD of evidence to say CST can kill Hashirama/Madara when they have Byakugou level regen, Mokuton, and PS.


No, that isn't how it works, you'd have to show me they can survive an attack of CST's magnitude.



X III said:


> As a reminder, fucking Tsunade in base survived that shit in addition to a fodder ANBU, although I concede they were at the edge of it (though they still took the attack).


They didnt take the attack at all. they got hit by rubble being pushed aside.



X III said:


> And we know Katsuyu could survive the rest. Even IF we said just for the sake of the argument that CST SOMEHOW manages to destroy Hashirama/Madara's constructs, you'd have to prove the attack still KILLS them, which we know an attack doesn't automatically do just because it gets rid of their constructs (refer to Itachi vs Kirin where his Susano'o is broken through, but he survives).


Kirin is a instant flash of energy. CST is not. Katsuyu is fucking durable, dont trash Katsuyu, bro.


X III said:


> Katsuyu's best feats? Survived a KN6 all the way until KN8 in her small form, which is amazing but do you REALLY think she's > fucking BYAKUGOU Tsunade? Do you REALLY think a PS can't tank a CST when it took a TBB with no issues, TBB having actual feats/statements to support them?? Do you REALLY think Mokuton can't survive that shit? Despite also tanking TBB and Susano'o slashes?


Orochimaru TOUCHED KN4 and was disintegrated. Katsuyu survived inside that no problem. Tanked CST a fucking crazy level move. Do I think Katsuyu who can split apart into many pieces and is literally a GIANT moosh creature with no bones can tank all forms of attacks like shown can out tank Tsunade CERTAINLY, with NO DOUBT.
Mokujin never tanked a TBB, it caught one, thats not an exploding one.
a TBB is pathetic compared to CST. CST is a solid force. a TBB explosion is not. and CST destroyed way more material.

Weaker Susano have been destroyed by Hirudora. And PS has been destroyed by a physical move, SS. a move nowhere near the power of CST. PS was also obliterated by the Juubidama, just putting that out there, not implying CST is stronger.



X III said:


> This is also completely ignoring that Hashi/Madara can use their own attacks against the CST to at least somewhat weaken it. A shockwave, for example.
> 
> So overall, the idea that a fucking CST is taking them down seems VERY skeptical to me.


many cubic miles of solid rock didnt stop CST. Madara and Hashirama arent either.



X III said:


> And yet a V4 could.


Ok?


X III said:


> It's common sense. That's like the same shit as saying V1 Cloaks are the same as V2...
> 
> You telling me Sasuke's ribcage is the same as his PS? That's asinine.


You arent understanding me.
Im am saying adding layers does not increase the durability of said layers. it just increases the overall protection. but the chakra doesn't suddenly become harder.
1 steel panel might not be pullet proof to a 9mm. 2 will. but that doesnt mean the steal got harder.


X III said:


> Wtf? Why would Madara fight Kurama if he wants to control him?


What? I dont even understand your point.



X III said:


> So you telling me that Madara's PS can't replicate Rinnegan rods (despite his AURA deflecting them), Gamabunta's sword, and Hidan's scythe?


Nope, I'm saying that if a Bijuus body is so durable that it takes a LONG ass time for hidan to do worthy damage, they are durable as fuck. Im also saying that those rods pieced gyuukis tails. Also, the rods inside the bijuu were held in place so firmly by the bijuus body that it took SM and KCM to remove them. That Points to their durability.
Shukaku doesnt need to be durable,the bra can manipulate his body as he showed against madara.


X III said:


> I know, but it's against the point. If all the Bijuu are shown to have been pierced, isn't it only logical Madara's PS can hurt them?


Yeah, sure, im not saying that he cant hurt them, im saying the damage isnt oneshot worthy and he certainly cant just beat them with no danger.


X III said:


> That was Obito BEFORE he got Rikudou Chakra from Madara.


He barely got anything, he still wasn't very powerful. And the weak obito still pierced Madara.



X III said:


> Seems to be extremely unlikely. You telling me Kakuzu and Hidan lasted that ENTIRE time? And a Bijuu has a shit ton of Chakra, so how would Hidan even outlast?


Look at the anime and manga, both have it go from day to near sundown.



X III said:


> That's literally not the point. Point is a weaker Bijuu has trouble with a weaker attack than what Gyuki dealt with.


You arent using context at all here.


X III said:


> Seriously, what the fuck? Do I have to FULLY describe a scene in order to be deemed honest? Apparently there's ANY noticeable difference between "pushed to the ground and thrown to the ground" that is big enough to call me dishonest. Jesus Christ, dude. I was literally referring to that exact same thing. You seriously think I'd claim some stupid shit and pass it off as if it's right? You know me better than that.


All I'll say is this, If i said. "All 8th gate gai did was punch madara" to downplay the feat, what would you say?



X III said:


> Naruto's moving his body out of the way of a giant explosion coming his way while in midair? Let's say he does that. What does he do with the next one?
> 
> I agree if you say SM Naruto could compete with Kurama physically, but he would have gotten shat on by a TBB if Kurama resorted to actually using that.


He was only vulnerable to a TBB because he was midair. but yeah, IF Kyuubi actually hits Naruto with it, he is fucked. Otherwise, like the Mokujin, he just bullies him around.


X III said:


> 50% Kurama.
> 
> No TBBs involved.
> 
> ...


The Mazo was not unable to fight wtf? It gets up right after.
Yeah, SM is stronger, but KCM is still strong.
A TBB didnt even hurt the mazo mid transformation. The biggest TBB we have ever seen shot.

The only thing we have seen hurt the mazo was Kamui.


X III said:


> Possibly. Strongest Bijuu, Kurama had healing.
> 
> Also transformation healing exists. Remember when Obito got his heart back?


No, Kurama doesn't have instant healing. He has Accelerated healing

And thats not what happened to Obito. He healed because he took in massive amounts of chakra. Just like how Kisame healed his whole chest. Or tsunade getting put back together by absorbing Karins chakra. Or madara healing when he absorbed thats fallen Sshinobis KN cloak. Obito also has a healing factor.


X III said:


> But Kakashi and Guy barely did anything.


Gai did equivalent of tripping him and Kakashi locked up an arm so he couldnt effectively protect himself.
A child could trip a trained fighter. Now imagine that child tripped you and then you got uppercut'd by 2 other fighters while another kid was holding your arm.



X III said:


> So you're pretty much saying the husk is > husk + 9 Bijuu. Gotcha.
> 
> Didn't know the Bijuu were negatives in power.



HUH?
Same chakra through 10 tails and 2 arms vs 2 arms and legs. The chakra of the juubi was more spread out.



X III said:


> How does it have Chakra? How is it primed to take loads of Chakra? Any Manga evidence?


It has chakra because it is alive my friend. How else did the Mazo power the Zetsu and keep Madara alive?
Primed to take loads of chakra because it just was full of chakra.
You think Naruto could have just taken kyuubi so easily if he hadn't been the jinchuriki to him just a few minutes before. Minato is far more talented and powerful than Base naruto but even he was like holy fuck this chakra is heavy when it was first put in him.

If you use something old for the first time in a long time you have to take it slow so it doesn't break but once you see everything is good then its fine to be more rough with it.



X III said:


> Doesn't need to.
> 
> And why wouldn't Nagato remove the Chakra Rods if he no longer needed them for the Mazo.


 Because you need big antennas for long distance brodcasting. Isn't that obvious? He uses them as chakra broadcasters and recievers. This was all explained in the pain arc. Obito didn't need to do that because he was right next to his 6 paths of pain.
Nagato needs lots of rods to control them too because just one wouldn't get enough signal. That is shown by him saying he could control naruto up close with just 1 rod inside him.



X III said:


> Seems to be the exact opposite. The village seen in the Orochimaru arc was BY FAR more impressive than in the Nine Tails attack or Pain Arc.


Huh? No way.



X III said:


> Common sense.


A common excuse for those with no evidence. not even a shred of it.


X III said:


> Either that, or Naruto simply got stronger and had a great advantage against Kurama due to infinite SM.


Uhhh, what? He still absolutely dominated him. Infinite Sage mode didnt do jack shit. He could do what he did with just 1 spare clone gathering sage chakra.
And he got stronger, ok maybe, how much? Stronger than Kn6? FUCK NO.



X III said:


> Or 50% Kurama never fought Naruto to his full extent.


Cause he was getting his ass handed to him.



X III said:


> And oh boy, KN8 can't be stronger than 50% Kurama if KN9 Kurama (i.e. Kurama breaking out of Naruto's body) literally IS Kurama. That's a literal fallacy.


Do you know what KN stands for? Kyuubi Naruto. KN9 is when the seal breaks and gives naruto full kyuubi powers as a JINCHURIKI, then he dies and kyuubi escapes. When kyuubi was released from kushina she was KN9(KK9 lol).

So no, it is not a fallacy. Bijuu ARE more powerful through their Jinchuriki, as stated plenty of times.

So a Kurama VS 100% Kyuubi BM Naruto is a salad tossing of epic proportions.
Deidara literally 1 shot a Bijuu with no host. Both Raikage can damage Gyuuki, but Bee in base is stronger than A4. Imagine what V2 bee would do to A4...


X III said:


>


What are you talking about? What is inconsistent? I have analyzed these pics to hell and back for years. What the hell is inconsistent?



X III said:


> He LITERALLY collapses because of how much Chakra he expended.


And he did that while fresh right? not after just fighting an entire village, using CST, fighting several Sage Narutos, beating Naruto and gang and also fighting KN6. None of that happened, right?



X III said:


> Bruh, please. You haven't even ADDRESSED IT. And you FLAT OUT changed stances.
> 
> "hurr durr not impressive he didn't do damage."
> "but look that this tho! naruto knocked around Kurama"


Way to take 2 statements about different things and mix them.
Rasenshuriken did not hurt kurama. truth.
SM naruto did knock around kurama. truth.
Both are 2 true statements representing different fucking things. Did A3 hurt gyuuki substantially? no.
Did he "knock him around", no doubt. cut off 8 tails. Both are valid points.


X III said:


> Please follow your own advice. Not sure how you even come to the conclusion Nagato is stronger than Hashirama/Madara, not only from a feats standpoint but ALSO a portrayal standpoint despite Hashirama flat out breaking ET binding or being known as the God of Shinobi or being so powerful that everybody wanted his powers or Madara claiming only Hashirama can beat him when he referred to Nagato as a simple brat.


CST and CT both are more powerful than any attack Hashirama or madara did. It is also more impressive. Pain single-handedly soloed the strongest Ninja village in under an hour. He then fought one of the worlds strongest ninja, with an army of boss toads and sage toads who have knowledge on him, while he had no access to his best ability. An ability that when it returned singlehandedly allowed him to beat the ENTIRE naruto gang in a few pages. Hinata saves the day. Then he fought KN6, which is easily stronger than any bijuu but full Kurama. He won. Then KN8 came out, Minato saves the day, then KN8 disappeared leaving SM Naruto. then he struggled a bit with the stress and CT fell apart. He then beats SM Narutos attack and Naruto SQUEAKS out a win because pain was too tired to push a few Naruto clones.

EMS Hashiboob V2 susano Madara was beat by a basic combo by Gaara and SM Naruto.
Rinnegan Hashiboob Madara couldn't even fuck with Naruto and Bee without mokuton. Then gets fucked by a nearly lifeless Gai with Hirudora. This is right after crippled and nearly legless Nagato got done thrashing Bee and Naruto in under 5 panels.

Hashirama was killed in a war. I guarantee you the forces he faced did not equal the forces Pain faced. The leaf had the 3 strongest clans in the world on their side. So Hashirama lost to an army of lesser ninja. The lesser pain Solo'd an entire village casually. Losing only 1 body to Kakashi and Chozas attacks. Two of the leafs top Jounin.




X III said:


> Not sure how you think Nagato > Madara when Madara was Kabuto's trump card or when Nagato got his eyes from Madara or when Madara is flat out SUPPOSED to be stronger than Nagato as per laws of common sense due to being the next villain, which is the case 99.9% of the time, especially in Mangas made for 11 year olds.


So you are saying crippled edo nagato with no ability to summon the Mazo due to fake eyes is weaker than Rinnegan Young Hashiboob boosted Madara therefore VotE Madara is stronger?

Also, it is said that madara was the trump card, it is also said that Nagato was the strongest Edo. This is even after the mystery edo was shown.

And the next villan bs means nothing in Naruto. Obito had a deal to not touch Konoha. He could only do that once Itachi died. Yet Pain called for an attack on Konoha, violating that deal, why? because Obito can't say no to Nagato, only guide him as he is not stronger. Obito also had a clusterfuck of tools, 6 edo jinchuriki, the gedo mazo, broken Kamui, Rinnegan boost, nearly infinite chakra it seems, with Edo Rinnegan Hashiboob Madara on his side and over like 50 chapters failed to do what a crippled nerfed kabuto controlled Nagato did in 5 pages. That says takes your next villain is stronger logic and shove it. Obito wasnt stronger, he was more resourceful you could say.



X III said:


> Like, seriously. The ENTIRE fanbase arrived to the conclusion that Hashi/Madara beat Nagato. Are you REALLY going to tell me you're some top genius who unveiled the truths of the Manga, or are you just delusional when it comes to Nagato and Hashirama/Madara?


A lot of the world though the earth was flat. doesnt mean shit.

And if people came to that conclusion due to a small section of the fanbase cleverly misrepresenting calcs and feats then yes, I am some"top genius" who is here to show the world Pain.

Way to use a fallacies argument though.


X III said:


> You accept the ONE feat from Nagato where he dispels an FRS, then use an outlier FRS feat in order to gauge Nagato's true power. Legit, Naruto has ONLY ever showed that much DC with a normal FRS ONCE, and yet you take it as far more credible than the other feats, which take the majority.


I actually dont even use the biggest number calced for FRS. I use the smaller number from the Small CT calc.
And the feat was a DC feat. The rock wasnt destroyed, it was blasted away. And thats for a BASIC ST. CST is FAR stronger.


X III said:


> Pain could repel FRS, yet he failed to kill Kakashi with ST


 Huh? He literally DID kill Kakashi with a ST. Thats how Kakashi died in that arc. the one ST Pain did that hit Kakashi into the ground killed him and nearly killed Choza.



X III said:


> got his ST resisted by KN6,


That overpowered 2 SM Narutos casually. KN6 Is much stronger.


X III said:


> failed to kill SM


One of the most durable people in Naruto.


X III said:


> got partially countered by Chakra to feet


After he was so exhausted a basic ST drained him.



X III said:


> and even failed against BASE NARUTO just with some KB backups


After he was so exhausted a basic ST drained him.



X III said:


> Sure, he got through boss toads, although those mfs have no durability feats, boss summons actually seem to be fucking weaker considering SM Jiraiya kicked Cerberus around yet got intercepted by Pain no diff.. AND we have SM Naruto surviving ST when boss summons got ragdolled.


SM Jiraiya actually never touched the dogs I don't think. The dogs kind kinda just disappear in the manga, no explanation lol.
And the toads weight is still enough to pin Kurama. So they arent nothing.



X III said:


> Anyway, no offense meant by any of this. Just my honest opinion. If you want my true opinion, I will NEVER accept Nagato > Madara/Hashirama simply going by the themes of the Manga.


That would mean you, like i said, are rejecting Nagatos portrayal.
A sage of the six paths should be above a god of shinobi, no? Considering the 1st and 2nd are, the 3rd isn't?




X III said:


> According to the Manga, Hashirama/Madara are the top a Shinobi can reach without some god powers like TTJ or Eight Gates. It's just what's instilled into me and the other people who read the Manga.


Or the MOTHERFUCKING EYES OF THE *TRUE* GOD OF SHINOBI.
That is pure and unrestricted BIAS. The fucking combo of the two people you are talking about results in the damn eyes. Rinnegan has always been portrayed as the peak of shinobi. Nagato was considered a god. Obito considered him a true sage of 6 paths. He was the only ninja other than Hagoromo who could use Rinne Tensei and not die. He was also a master of all rinnegan jutsu unlike anyone else we have seen in the show other than most likely Hagoromo.



X III said:


> You can try as hard as you are able, but you won't be able to convince anybody, because your arguments are far fetched and go against what the Manga implies and states. I'll still debate you, but you won't have good chances at all in convincing me.


I get it, I know why you would think Madara and hashirama is stronger. You falsely believe CT and CST is weaker than PS and SS.
You believe Madara doing worse in a weaker form against the same people Nagato raped is more impressive. You believe EMS Madara is equal to the 3rd Sage of 6 paths, why, idk.
You dont believe Preta does what it always does.

I know i can convince you, the first step is just getting the blinders of the fandom off your eyes. I am using straight up logic, no baseless assumptions. 


X III said:


>


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## ThirdRidoku (Feb 23, 2019)

@kokodeshide

Bruh, Why should I take you and your Nagato nonsense seriously after that stunt you pulled in that other thread?

So many dishonesties and then you ran lol.

Even lied about the function of substitution jutsu even though I showed you multiple manga scans and the databook entry which both show no connection to Body Flicker lmao, yet I still see you claiming it's Body Flicker, keep trolling bro. Body Flicker boosts your speed but you are  still bound by the laws of motion. Substitution jutsu bypasses that all together as seen in all it's usages. Restrained targets can use it to escape, leave a decoy, and appear in other locations, sometimes without a trace in the case of skilled users like Itachi and Hashirama, when it would be impossible otherwise. Sometimes the decoy they summon was nowhere to be seen in the environment too, and the best users can use this variant of the technique on shadow clones. No movement lines are seen when it's used, and the users appear in a new location, much to their opponent's surprise, sometimes reappearing in mid-air as well. Opponents are seen trying to predict the destination of their opponent rather than trying to follow their movement speed.
.

you were so dishonest that you even referenced Itachi's part one statement about Jiraiya, the same statement that put Jiraiya >>> Nagato btw lmao, and the same statement that was debunked within the same arc and by future statements/feats.   Dishonest about Totsuka blitzing Nagato despite the fact his eyes were looking up at the gourd. Lied about Itachi's fighting personality. Showed you two panels of him failing to capture Kakashi in genjutsu immediately and he even failed to put KCM naruto in genjutsu despite looking in his eyes multiple times during their taijutsu, and you lied about it. The list goes on man.

At one point you even said it's impossible for Nagato to be taken by surprise, when he has been taken by surprise in every fight he has been in LMAO. Konohmaru took him off guard. Where was his god tier reflexes then lmao.

You are an intelligent poster, easily one of the smartest people I have seen comment on these forums, but it's only when Nagato comes up that all logic seems to go out the window for you.


Like seriously.

>Nagato admitted inferiority to KISAME in chakra reserves rofl in Chapter 255 pg 13 of the Viz. So yeah he is nowhere near Madara and Hashi in chakra, if the other abundant amounts of proof weren't enough. Hashirama has the chakra control to enter sage mode and cast genjutsu. Madara had the chakra control to sync senjutsu with his own chakra without fail while absorbing it and experiencing it for the first time, while Nagato only has feats of being shit diff'd by senjutsu chakra rofl.  Combine their superior chakra control with a HUGE GAP in stamina and they are physically stronger, period. Stamina and strength are closely related to each other as well to chakra reserves in this manga. Madara never got overpowered by v2 Ayy lmao. He was in mid-air and Ayy simply pushed him. Ayy is a freight train, he is massive in terms of mass density, very strong, and most importantly, FAST,  so obviously he would impart a large amount of kinetic energy to a target already in mid air. Madara isn't massive at all so of course he would move. F=MASS x acceleration. But Ayy couldn't destroy his guard or hurt him physically in anyway. If Killer Bee is more powerful than V2 Ayy, then Hashirama and Madara both are, period. It all adds up nicely. Hashirama>Madara>>>Nagato>> Base Killer Bee>>v2 Ayy, simple.



>Don't lie to me dude. The official translation clearly has Sasuke saying that he would have been caught by Infinite Tsykuyomi if he stepped outside.  Even without that, Sasuke's rinnegan is different due to the tomoe so it isn't comparable to Nagato's  rinnegan, and it was clearly stated his Susano'o was RAMPED UP to BLOCK THE LIGHT, so feel free to keep up the trolling/greasiness bro. The characters stretch the definition of rinnegan, as Sasuke refered to Juubidara's third eye as a rinnegan when in reality it is a rinnesharingan..... so yeah. It's been a while since you have actually proved me wrong lol. When you actually prove me wrong I'll let you know, but you gotta stop the dishonesty first though bruh. You aren't getting anywhere with me using bad translations/ignoring simple to see on panel feats.

> Don't lie to me dude.  Madara clearly stated that he was going to teach Obito the Six paths technique, which includes all six paths and the seventh path which controls life and death. Madara didn't just magically learn how to use the rinnegan when he was revived as an Edo. He knew how to use preta, knew Deva Path (used meteors, used chibaku Tensei) used the Outer Path as well. Konan also clearly states in Chapter 449 that rinnegan users gain access to all techniques. Even Sasuke was using Deva and Preta within the day of awakening it. The mastery part comes down to how many techniques you can use at once, which I conceded Nagato probably has the best mastery over because he is the most practiced. But that doesn't matter in the slightest. Madara in his old age legit was about to die and then wielded a CHAKRA TAXING dojutsu long enough to learn all the paths to the point he could inform Obito on how to use them, summoned the mazo, then was only left with enough chakra to survive with gedo mazou life support. We all know chakra dwindles severely with old age, look what happened to Hirzuen. Madara also can use limbo while Nagato can't. The databook entry for rinnegan says it all. Madara is simply more skilled in the usage of his rinnegan.

>LMAO more arguing against canon. Typical when Nagato is involved. Ayy was clearly shown and stated to be the fastest ninja of his time behind Minato, and Killer Bee didn't disagree.v2 Killer Bee and   v2 Ayy are comparable in speed but Ayy is faster, period. Bee didn't react to FTG lmao, he predicted it both times. It's called foresight and anticipation bruh. Minato even telegraphed his teleportation the second time. It's obvious. "Find out what's special to your brother, before he ceases to be jinchuriki nor human". LMAO.  When Ayy was hit the first time he was in the middle of deceleration, it's called PHYSICS. He missed his target and the kunai was next to him. Not enough time to change course when up against someone with instantaneous movement to your back.

>Nagato catching Bee means nothing because it required:Bee's lack of knowledge on Rinnegan shared vision, Bee was mid-strike and not expecting a counter-attack and thus can't weave signs for substitution, he was in MID AIR where he can't manuever easily so he couldn't dodge. Shurado is fast as naruto clearly stated, but the feat isn't impressive considering all the advantages Nagato had. Madara isn't getting tagged by it because he has better reflexes than Bee and EMS SHARINGAN to PREDICT muscle contractions lmao. And he has the knowledge to avoid that situation in the first place.
>Feints are what win fights most of the time unless the difference in physical stats between the opponents is too great. Madara never needed any tactics to beat the 5 Kage, but he used some standard ones well. But PS GG is something he could have done from the start and there would be nothing they could do about it. Madara and Hashirama were so even that neither one's feints could turn into a combo string. They counter each other perfectly and trade attacks until Hashirama finally is forced to overpower him and then outlast him, and his wood clone body replacement technique was executed perfectly but still required Madara to have his sharingan off for it to work. But yeah, even one of the most colossal battles in naruto history came down to a feint lmao.
Just look at naruto vs Pain. 4 of his kills came from feints. Feinted Preta with a punch to make him off balanced then used nature energy to one shot. Expanded his rasenshuriken unexpectedly after Nagato thought his human path would be safe to stand and throw animal path to safety. Then Naruto used his favorite strategy that dates back to the zabuza arc. Blinds Pain, throws double tap shuriken with a transformation jutsu that would have killed both Preta and Deva had Shinra Tensei not returned in the nick of time, all while a shadow clone flanks Hell realm from above which Pain couldn't see because Naruto covered Preta's eyes after knocking him down. Even Naruto's last double tap rasenshuriken with shadow shuriken technique would have won the fight if naruto's rasenshuriken expanded, but it didn't due to PIS. Kishimoto forgot about naruto's ghost punches and his ability to expand rasenshuriken mid-flight, because then he would have stomped Nagato too easily lmao. Naruto recycles the same clever strategies due to his limited arsenal but always adapts them well to the situation at hand, and a huge part of his success is his use of feints.

 This is exactly why people just default to Preta Path GG for Nagato every time because it's easier to use childish logic rather than actually think about how tactics can be used to exploit the weaknesses of the ability.  Madara has feinted plenty of times. double tap meteor. Distracted 5 Kage with Mokuton pollen then appeared in their blindspot, and had them dead to rights. He slapped them to the ground then suffocated them with katon+pollen combo. If not for Ohnoki's will of stone, the Kage lost right there. Used wood clone body replacement technique and appeared underground and striked tsunade from underneath. His ability to analyze Sasuke's Ameno and create counter measures, his ability to efficiently shut down Minato, Kakashi's and Gaara's strategy in just a few moves, and his counter measures to Obito and Kakashi's kamui are all good examples of his incredible experience coming in handy.


> Except Nagato was explicitly shown to have to turn off his other paths to use CST and implied to need to do so for CBT. Not only that, his paths were slower to recover after CST. not to mention his lifespan was shortened lmao Clearly the  powerful Deva techniques drawback his other paths as much as it does his health.

>Don't lie to me bro. Hanzo resisted Edo Tensei while Kabuto was distracted by controlling MANY other targets and Kabuto simply couldn't reset control in time. Kabuto clearly stated it was difficuly to control that many edo. He wanted to control almost all of them via direct control, but it would be difficult and some edos were better left on auto-pilot for the psychological warfare. Orochimaru when he was controlling just two fodder versions of Tobirama and Hashirama immediately opted for direct control because it was more efficient. Hashirama and Tobirama stopped talking to Hiruzen and were clearly mindless and only attacking on  Oro's command. Their control was released once they got tagged by the Reaper which Orochimaru didn't see coming, and only then did they start talking to Hiruzen again. Orochimaru jobbed hard because he wanted to see Hiruzen's final secret move. Kabuto couldn't reestablish control over Hanzo in TIME because the guy killed himself twice over, once with the seppoku, and then again with his own posion gas which paralyzed him and allowed him to be sealed.  Orochimaru only had to worry about 4 kages, and he was shitting his pants at the fact that Hashirama was laughing at his control casually.  Orochimarui's reaction was such that Hashirama was in a completely different league. Tobirama clearly stated that being brought back closer to his original POWER is what allowed him to muster a resistance in the first place. The fact he can even use FTG now and the scale of his other attacks increased is more than enough proof that it's power based.


> LMAO. Are you serious? The reason those calcs are biased is because total energy output is nice and all but what really matters for destroying materials is applying enough pounds per square inch. When you hit an object you need to apply enough force and therefore enough stress per unit area, which entails Overcoming the tensile strength/shear strength of the objects in question. Enough energy needs to be transmitted to the material  to create fracture, and preferably be emitted to the rest of the object on contact. Hence why kid Obito could punch the boulder in one spot and yet still disperse enough energy outward from the point of contact to break the rock into many pieces. Having greater surface Area with your attack improves the chances of you destroying the whole material, but then you are reducing the Pressure applied and need to compensate with a greater force. Where are the calcs for how much energy/pounds per square inch it takes to bust PERFECT SUSANO'O. Where is your stress failure calculation for perfect Susano'o????? Nowhere to be found in your analysis, yet you claim Nagato's CST would bust it without proof and then request me to give calcs lmao. I don't need to waste my time with calcs when the portrayal between the two opponents is clear. The proof is blatantly obvious. Look at Kurama 's standard ball Bijuu Dama. Bijuu Dama has a shit ton of energy output, but no single target caught in it's uniform/spherical blast radius can take the full brunt of that energy, the energy gets distributed across the surface every object involved in the area of effect. PS was safe without a scratch, and Hobi survived it just fine. Yet Mokujin and the deep forest emergence were completely destroyed. Why? because their durability wasn't good enough to survive the pounds per square inch being applied to them. Pain destroying a ton of reinforced buildings with CST and picking up a lot of rocks with chibaku tensei is nice and all,  but his attacks inherently have a large area of effect because they are gravity based as stated in the databook, and as such he only needs to apply enough pounds per inch to overcome the tensile strength of rock in order to rip it out of the ground, the area of effect is already done for him. Rocks<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Perfect Susano'o, period.

The total energy he outputted was nice but it's irrelevant. Madara aimed at two mountains in the distance to his right against the 5 kage. The AIR PRESSURE Smashed the remnants of his own meteor and then went on to cleave two distant mountain tops and provide enough energy to lift them straight up. His Air pressure is strong enough to bust mountains like that. Yet in his flashback he created a bigger area of effect when he spun around to slice all of Hashi's buddha hands. More mountain tops were busted which means more total energy was outputted, but it doesn't matter because his shockwaves still applied roughly the same pounds per square inch to each mountain it cleaved, which is all that matters for busting through objects.

 >Meanwhile, Hashirama turned a huge part of a  mountain range into a valley. Valley is much longer than what you claimed in your panel, and I already referenced the scans for that in my previous post, 220-240 and 693-697.. You picked the scan that most poorly depicts the scale of his feat, and even then you are still being dishonest because we can SEE that the valley extends out of the page toward the reader and was stated to have created a river which we see starting to form from the waterfall blooming in that panel, but because Nagato is involved we gonna ignore all those details am I right?  Even if the valley was shallower(it isn't shallower than the CST crater) it doesn't matter, because his attack wasn't aimed at the valley he created in the first place, the valley was created from the explosion generated from massive numbers of massive hands colliding with Susano'o at high speeds in  a short amount of time. As such, most of his yield went into busting Perfect Susano'o, and the valley was the sideshow. Meanwhile Nagato was aiming at the ground in both of his attacks, and smashed things that are not as durable as Susano'o by emitting a gravity wave with equally magnitude in all directions, not as impressive. Once he overcame the tensile strength of each konoha building, that was all he needed. The extra energy output associated with the area of effect is irrelevant because if PS was standing in konoha at the time, it would barely be pushed back, and wouldn't be busted at all because it's too durable for Nagato's paygrade. It took someone much stronger than Nagato to bust a huge chunk of it with a blunt force attack and the attack was WEAKENED LMAO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Bruh, Why should I take you and your Nagato nonsense seriously after that stunt you pulled in that other thread?


Lol what stunt? You mean me talking about shit that actually happened and you making up fairy tails about how Itachi could have Instakilled Nagato at the drop of a hat yet didnt because he just "Didnt want to make it too easy?"


ThirdRidoku said:


> So many dishonesties and then you ran lol.


No dihonesties at all. All facts supported by the manga and DB.

And I didn't run. I actually spent several hours researching and typing then my computer restarted overnight and somehow the draft was saved so i said FUCK THAT, and didnt do it again.




ThirdRidoku said:


> You are an intelligent poster, easily one of the smartest people I have seen comment on these forums, but it's only when Nagato comes up that all logic seems to go out the window for you.



Just wanted to single this out just in case anyone had trouble finding it....


In all seriousness, If you want to debate this, we are going to have to start from scratch. You dont use multiquote and that is frustrating to deal with as I'm not even sure what you are responding to. That paired with this unending bloodlust of yours to fanfic Itachi till he becomes the next president of anime makes what you are saying extremely difficult to sift through. 
I'll debate till my fingers bleed, so don't think I'm running from anything. I'm the king of calling people cowards, it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to respond to all challengers. I'll address all points as I nearly always do and will concede where i am wrong, as I always do. But when you type all this crazy shit its like you aren't even a human lol.


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 3, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Lol what stunt? You mean me talking about shit that actually happened and you making up fairy tails about how Itachi could have Instakilled Nagato at the drop of a hat yet didnt because he just "Didnt want to make it too easy?"
> 
> No dihonesties at all. All facts supported by the manga and DB.
> 
> ...




LMAO bro you still being dishonest, wtf. Good luck proving me wrong bro. I looked up the databook entry on substitution from 3 sources.  One from a collection on these very forums. then two from other trustworthy sources with the raws themselves. NOTHING in official sources connect it to body flicker.  It is very concerning that you still haven't admitted you are wrong on this, plus essentially EVERYTHING ELSE bro lmao. You downplayed Madara hardcore brozay. The bro shits on Nagato in literally EVERY WAY. Reflexes, taijutsu, chakra reserves, durability chakra enhanced strength, Body flicker, physical speed, experience and has the right tools to counter the rinnegan. The bro Nagato admitted inferiority to Kisame in chakra reserves rofl. And don't even think of strawmanning me here either bro. Kisame while stronger than nagato physically and in terms of stamina, Shinra Tensei ( Kisame can't get close, his arsenal and skillset isn't sufficient to bypass it), Summons, and Preta path shit on Kisame hard, just an awful matchup. So yeah strength and chakra reserves aren't everything, but I never said Madara/Hashirama shit on Nagato just because of the difference in chakra, I only bring it up so much because I caught you spreading misinformation lmao.

Nagato and Kisame are at best around Gyuki level. Meanwhile Madara and Hashirama though weaker than Full Kurama are > Half of Kurama based on feats and manga statements. That same half of Kurama still blows almost everyone else out of the water in power and strength, significantly stronger than all of his 8 other brothers by kilometers.

And Bruh, I said calcs would be a waste of time because it isn't necessary for me to prove you wrong and it frustrating. But I am more than capable of calcs bro. I don't like it because Kishimoto draws things to scale okay but not always, he is very inconsistent. He can't even get his toad heights and bijuu heights right. I have measured Gamabunta to be 100 m, to be 18 m, to be 27-50 m etc. It's a mess.

LMAO bro Kishimoto very clearly made it clear that Itachi is the solo-king of naruto,  I don't care what anyone says. You can be dishonest, but Kishimoto made it very clear that Nagato's eyes were angled up at the gourd, and if you look carefully the Totsuka blade was seen coming out of the EXACT spot Nagato was looking at bro.  The dude clearly saw it and he registered shock via "!!". He got BLITZED. Black Zetsu said the guy is invincible for a reason. Blitzing the Third Ridoku just like that no diff, from quite a distance away is no joke. That blade can blitz Kaguya based on the hype and the already shown speed feats. It was literally the same thing with Orochimaru. One second he was talking, the next second the blade was already through him and his snake, and he was visibly confused. The blade moved too fast for his optic nerve, regardless if he cared about being stabbed or not afterward
Like I said, God Tier Totsuka Blade which is  almost instant even for top tiers, no one short of Kaguya/SPSM Naruto/Six paths Sasuke/ juubidara/ etc can mentally react to a pure Totsuka  blitz.

The guy's clone feinting skill is on par with Hashirama, who low-diff'd many ninjas during the war states period with his ruse to the point Madara could only compete by training his sharingan to see through shadow clones somehow. Itachi can legit solo 90 percent of the verse with Clone feint + Totsuka. You won't see it coming. Kurenai called him superhuman, not Kakashi, meaning the clone feint he pulled off is not common at all in the verse. We have only seen Itachi and hashirama (and later Madara) pull it off. Even Naruto and Kakashi need line of sight blockers or need a clone already prepped to pull off their substitution. Itachi and Hashirama do it in plain sight.  Gaara and Yamato can only replicate the feat with a basic clone while Hashi and Itachi use SHADOW CLONES, which is why it's so powerful, especially with their respective skills in combining it with psychological warfare and other tactics.

With Itachi, there is no character who can deal with all of these things:

 can confirm nor deny if you are in genjutsu or not before it's too late
break his genjutsu( Most people can't break finger genjutsu, and Tsykuyomi one shots 99 percent of the verse). Eye contact is essential in battle even if by accident, and Itachi is a genius and can use things like water reflections to his advantage.
can confirm nor deny whether he substituted out with a clone and is ready to shank you from behind
can react to Totsuka
no one breaches Yata.
kunai which can be curved into the eyes of the rinnegan shared vision, no diff. He can legit curve kunai into people's eyes no diff and win the fight LMAO. The summons and NAGATO by extension( because he shares their field of vision) were directly looking at some of those kunai too yet couldn't see them, so they had to be too fast for Nagato to mentally react to as well. Itachi blitzed Nagato with his physical speed and cut his arms off. Blitzed him and his summons with kunai. Then blitzed Nagato shit diff with Totsuka. It was pretty embarrassing to be honest, but that's what happens when you are up against soloi-king lmao. Kishimoto had to kill him off or he would have won the war too easily, seriously. There was no reason at all why Itachi couldn't do what madara did and remain on the battlefield, but Itachi is humble and true to his word, he entrusted madara and Sasuke to naruto.
Hand seal speed, top tier reflexes, top tier physical speed.
He is too fast and too smart.

But you were so dishonest that you LIED about him feinting Kabuto and EMS Sasuke. The bro Itachi legit feinted both of those clowns twice (You can clearly see both Sasuke's and Kabuto's  "?!" both times he just dropped a clone feint out of nowhere without any kind of warning, even tricked someone as smart as Kabuto into thinking he had the upperhand and was countering Itachi's moves, but it was the other way around. Itachi makes all his enemies look stupid, no matter how smart they are.

So why should I believe that you will fairly address the feats bro? You know how I know you are being dishonest? Because prior to the Akatsuki splitting up in pairs, they were stated to travel as a group by Jiraiya in part one, which is why they are all so familiar with each other and their respective abilities. Itachi said backup from Akatsuki wouldn't change the outcome brozay. Even I wouldn't claim that any variation of Nagato would lose to Jiraiya. Even if it's Shoten six paths of pain with 30 percent chakra each, he still stomps bro, as per canon. Yet you weren't careful enough to look into those facts because you were too focused on making Nagato look better than he is LMAO. You literally drove yourself into a corner the second you brought Itachi's part one statements/ supposed fear of Jiraiya up bro, tisk tisk.

You even lied about Susano'o formation speed. The bro's susano'o forms faster than lightning can hit the ground. Even if you lowball it, he still reacted in less than 20 milliseconds and formed V2 Susano'o within that time frame as well. All users have fast Susano'o in general. His susano'o strikes fast.


I will try to post it in the calc thread with more details. But I scaled the Valley of the end to be about 100 meters deep by using Obito sitting on top of Madara' statue on Chapter 370 pg 24, which is corroborated by another online source  ( as well as some other scaling I did). It's also about 100 meters wide. If you take the panel in Chapter 697,  a 1000 m length of the valley scales  to about Large Town level or in Chapter 370. Then take the panel in Chapter 621 pg 13. Kyuubi is roughly 900 m long thanks to this site:"" and I scaled a LOW END length for the valley (Like I said, we NEVER see the full extent of it's length ever) to 2,130 meters bruh, because based on the explosion in Chapter 626 the valley form is easily much greater than 2,130 meters rofl. The total energy output required for this LOWWWWW ENDDD calc is large town. Madara's rib cage can tank punches from Tsunade albeit not without some fracture.  Perfect Susano'o  was at the epicenter of 100 percent kyuubi bijuu dama (where the energy intensity is highest due to inverse square law and susano'o has a fairly big surface area too) so it took a solid amount of the energy without any kind of deformation. And bijuu damas casually pulverize mountains. Perfect Susano'o's tensile strength and toughness is extremely high, and it can't be downplayed. The amount of energy need to take off a huge strip of it is ENORMOUS and is quite the feat. And that easily makes the calc I did EXTREMELY LOW END. And the feat is a low end even more so because the EXPLOSION created by his firepower is what created the valley, not the actual hands too lmao. All the hands were pretty much destroyed on collision with Perfect Susano'o or cut apart by 12 bijuu damas en route. Hashirama and Madara lolstomp Nagato in firepower.

Too lazy to put together all  the scans and calculations right now, but here is a draft of the calc with the pertinent info:
I measured Obito sitting on Madara's VOTE state to be about 9 pixels. He appears to be standing up though crouching a bit,  but I said screw it and scaled him to be 1.82 m, his databook height. Madara and HAshi statues are about 592 pixels, so 1.82/9 * 592 gives 119.7 m. The actual valley is a bit shorter than the statues, so it's about 98.28 meters. I measured the width of the valley, it's a bit hard due to perspective but I did my best and it seems to be about 97.26 meters.
To get the length of the valley I used anglarsizing and used : 2arctan(tan(70/2)*(9 pixels/695 pxiels) where 9 represents obito height and 695 represents the length of the manga panel. This angular size  of 1.04 degrees for obito gives him a distance of 100 meters from the POV ( and thus  approximately for the waterfall as well)
. 100.36m x 98.28m x 97.26m x ,1000,000 is  959312416608959312416608 cc

959312416608959312416608 cc *69 J/cc (using violent fragmentation for valley of the end since alot of it was pulverized but lots of large rock fragments remain), and even then this is a low end because Hashirama also destroyed some small mountains =

6.6192557e+13 Joules or 15.8 Kiloton of TNT -Town level.

Kyuubi on Chapter 621 pg 13 is 900m/338 pixels, so the approximate distance from the seashore just beind SS to the other edge of the panel where kyuubi is charging from is about 800 pixels x 900m/338pixel which gives 2130 m.

So: 2130 m x 98.28m x 97.26m x ,1000,000  *69 J/cc  =  1.404844e+15 J or 335.7657743785850926 kilotons of tnt
Large Town level.

I am looking for a scan that can show the FULL LENGTH for the Valley still.

Blah Blah Nagato's CST and CBT are Island level feats but Hashirama's feat is easily greater than that scale once you take into consideration that : His attack was weakened by another attack,  he wasn't aiming directly at the ground but rather curving hands to hit Susano'o, we don't know the full length of the valley,  he broke PS, energy dissipated to the air to form an explosion is what caused the valley, and not the hands themselves.

So yeah bro, Nagato takes the L. How does he even Beat Hashirama rofl. HAshirama would turn Nagato to stone by accident. Good luck trying to absorb all 1000 hands without turning to stone Nagato haha. This is a spite thread bruh.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 3, 2019)

Please learn to multi quote, man.


ThirdRidoku said:


> LMAO bro you still being dishonest, wtf. Good luck proving me wrong bro. I looked up the databook entry on substitution from 3 sources. One from a collection on these very forums. then two from other trustworthy sources with the raws themselves. NOTHING in official sources connect it to body flicker. It is very concerning that you still haven't admitted you are wrong on this, plus essentially EVERYTHING ELSE bro lmao.


Look at the manga explanation of the jutsu, bruh.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You downplayed Madara hardcore brozay. The bro shits on Nagato in literally EVERY WAY. Reflexes, taijutsu, chakra reserves, durability chakra enhanced strength, Body flicker, physical speed, experience and has the right tools to counter the rinnegan. The bro Nagato admitted inferiority to Kisame in chakra reserves rofl. And don't even think of strawmanning me here either bro. Kisame while stronger than nagato physically and in terms of stamina, Shinra Tensei ( Kisame can't get close, his arsenal and skillset isn't sufficient to bypass it), Summons, and Preta path shit on Kisame hard, just an awful matchup. So yeah strength and chakra reserves aren't everything, but I never said Madara/Hashirama shit on Nagato just because of the difference in chakra, I only bring it up so much because I caught you spreading misinformation lmao.


Is that why Nagato no diffed the same people Madara lost too?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato and Kisame are at best around Gyuki level. Meanwhile Madara and Hashirama though weaker than Full Kurama are > Half of Kurama based on feats and manga statements. That same half of Kurama still blows almost everyone else out of the water in power and strength, significantly stronger than all of his 8 other brothers by kilometers.


Kisame Slaughtered Bee. Nagato also beat Bee. Jinchuriki are stronger than the Bijuu. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> And Bruh, I said calcs would be a waste of time because it isn't necessary for me to prove you wrong and it frustrating. But I am more than capable of calcs bro. I don't like it because Kishimoto draws things to scale okay but not always, he is very inconsistent. He can't even get his toad heights and bijuu heights right. I have measured Gamabunta to be 100 m, to be 18 m, to be 27-50 m etc. It's a mess.


lolol So you don't want to use calcs cause they all prove you wrong. You don't even need to use calcs. You just need to eyeball it. Check out my Nagato respect thread, I made a picture explaining it all.


ThirdRidoku said:


> But you were so dishonest that you LIED about him feinting Kabuto and EMS Sasuke. The bro Itachi legit feinted both of those clowns twice (You can clearly see both Sasuke's and Kabuto's "?!" both times he just dropped a clone feint out of nowhere without any kind of warning, even tricked someone as smart as Kabuto into thinking he had the upperhand and was countering Itachi's moves, but it was the other way around. Itachi makes all his enemies look stupid, no matter how smart they are.


Show me where I lied please. I will wait.


ThirdRidoku said:


> So why should I believe that you will fairly address the feats bro? You know how I know you are being dishonest? Because prior to the Akatsuki splitting up in pairs, they were stated to travel as a group by Jiraiya in part one, which is why they are all so familiar with each other and their respective abilities. Itachi said backup from Akatsuki wouldn't change the outcome brozay. Even I wouldn't claim that any variation of Nagato would lose to Jiraiya. Even if it's Shoten six paths of pain with 30 percent chakra each, he still stomps bro, as per canon. Yet you weren't careful enough to look into those facts because you were too focused on making Nagato look better than he is LMAO. You literally drove yourself into a corner the second you brought Itachi's part one statements/ supposed fear of Jiraiya up bro, tisk tisk.


Hahahaaaaa. You are seriously ridiculous if you believe anything you just said. Akatsuki did used to travel as a group, but after obito took over they traveled in pairs. In part one they even say that they haven't even TALKED as a group in 10 fucking years. So fuck off with your nonsense calling me a liar when you don't even know what the fuck you are even talking about.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You even lied about Susano'o formation speed. The bro's susano'o forms faster than lightning can hit the ground. Even if you lowball it, he still reacted in less than 20 milliseconds and formed V2 Susano'o within that time frame as well. All users have fast Susano'o in general. His susano'o strikes fast.


Show me where I lied. I will wait.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I will try to post it in the calc thread with more details. But I scaled the Valley of the end to be about 100 meters deep by using Obito sitting on top of Madara' statue on Chapter 370 pg 24, which is corroborated by another online source  ( as well as some other scaling I did). It's also about 100 meters wide. If you take the panel in Chapter 697, a 1000 m length of the valley scales to about Large Town level or in Chapter 370. Then take the panel in Chapter 621 pg 13. Kyuubi is roughly 900 m long thanks to this site:"" and I scaled a LOW END length for the valley (Like I said, we NEVER see the full extent of it's length ever) to 2,130 meters bruh, because based on the explosion in Chapter 626 the valley form is easily much greater than 2,130 meters rofl. The total energy output required for this LOWWWWW ENDDD calc is large town. Madara's rib cage can tank punches from Tsunade albeit not without some fracture. Perfect Susano'o was at the epicenter of 100 percent kyuubi bijuu dama (where the energy intensity is highest due to inverse square law and susano'o has a fairly big surface area too) so it took a solid amount of the energy without any kind of deformation. And bijuu damas casually pulverize mountains. Perfect Susano'o's tensile strength and toughness is extremely high, and it can't be downplayed. The amount of energy need to take off a huge strip of it is ENORMOUS and is quite the feat. And that easily makes the calc I did EXTREMELY LOW END. And the feat is a low end even more so because the EXPLOSION created by his firepower is what created the valley, not the actual hands too lmao. All the hands were pretty much destroyed on collision with Perfect Susano'o or cut apart by 12 bijuu damas en route. Hashirama and Madara lolstomp Nagato in firepower.


That's really cute. Try 40000m and several thousand meters deep. the VotE feat is a fuckin shadow of CST and CT. It is an absolute joke.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Too lazy to put together all the scans and calculations right now, but here is a draft of the calc with the pertinent info:
> I measured Obito sitting on Madara's VOTE state to be about 9 pixels. He appears to be standing up though crouching a bit, but I said screw it and scaled him to be 1.82 m, his databook height. Madara and HAshi statues are about 592 pixels, so 1.82/9 * 592 gives 119.7 m. The actual valley is a bit shorter than the statues, so it's about 98.28 meters. I measured the width of the valley, it's a bit hard due to perspective but I did my best and it seems to be about 97.26 meters.
> To get the length of the valley I used anglarsizing and used : 2arctan(tan(70/2)*(9 pixels/695 pxiels) where 9 represents obito height and 695 represents the length of the manga panel. This angular size of 1.04 degrees for obito gives him a distance of 100 meters from the POV ( and thus approximately for the waterfall as well)
> . 100.36m x 98.28m x 97.26m x ,1000,000 is 959312416608959312416608 cc
> ...


HAHAHAH this proves you are a wanker of the most epic proportions. That is still ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to CT and CST. it is fuckin dog shit. kiloton range? what a joke. try TERATON Range for CT. or several hundred GIGATON for CST


ThirdRidoku said:


> Blah Blah Nagato's CST and CBT are Island level feats but Hashirama's feat is easily greater than that scale once you take into consideration that : His attack was weakened by another attack, he wasn't aiming directly at the ground but rather curving hands to hit Susano'o, we don't know the full length of the valley, he broke PS, energy dissipated to the air to form an explosion is what caused the valley, and not the hands themselves.


You don't what you are talking about. First off, you are saying that regardless of what Nagato is calced at, hahsirama is stronger. So there is no point in even addressing your fuckin arguments cause you are saying you will never change your mind.

Even if you said your 335 Kiloton calc was for EACH FIST of the SS, it still only comes out to 335 Megatons in total. That is STILL nothing compared to insane low ends of CT and CST. You are absolutely wrong here, bro, its time to accept it. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> So yeah bro, Nagato takes the L. How does he even Beat Hashirama rofl. HAshirama would turn Nagato to stone by accident. Good luck trying to absorb all 1000 hands without turning to stone Nagato haha. This is a spite thread bruh.


He doesn't need to absorb all the hands, they will mostly be breaking on themselves as Preta isnt instant absorption. 1 CST destroys SS and Hashirama anyway. absolutely no diff. The spite is only on your end. But you dont see that cause 55 teratons is smaller than 335 kilotons, right? cause hundreds of gigatons is smaller than 335 kilotons, right. give me a fuckin break.


----------



## X III (Mar 3, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Dude, the body wasn't there anymore. There is no other proof needed. You have to proof it wasn't destroyed.
> 
> And there is no inconsistency, because Hashirama was winning, Madara interfered allowing the tbb to detonate close up. So there is NO inconsistency.


I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove it was destroyed, otherwise I can say it was withdrawn.

There is an inconsistency if you think Mokujin is on par with Kurama, yet it was destroyed by a single attack.



kokodeshide said:


> Madara implied he could do the same shit. And considering Zetsu pieced Madara, I dont feel like it isnt too far fetched to say that. But in noy way am i saying it is LIKELY he could, just that he has pathways.


Madara is universally laughed at for that statement.

Zetsu pierced Madara with a Six Paths Arm. 



kokodeshide said:


> What? he roared because he was grabbed. if someone grabbed you you might be like wtf. That means nothing at all. His pain yells aren't even roars anyway.


He's in a fucking battle. Stop with the false equivalences.



kokodeshide said:


> _here_
> Wrapped up by a move that can defeat him.
> _here_
> irritated
> ...


Yet he was unable to escape the Shinsuusenju arm. 

FRS legitimately hurt him.



kokodeshide said:


> Withdrawn to where, bro? And you never have the opportunity to even see what happened to it. Why would it be withdrawn anyway, you think they are just permasealed with a head tap?


Legitimately asking why it was withdrawn. Now tell me why Hashirama withdrew it after sealing Kurama.

Shinsuusenju AND Mokujin there, yet gone after Kurama is sealed.

Is it plot? Who knows. But I'm still waiting for your scan.



kokodeshide said:


> Hand? Gyuuki lost tails no problem. You even said yourself that Kurama regenerates no problem.
> 
> Your second point is ridiculous. How could they POSSIBLY know they wouldn't have had an effect? You are saying that simply trying to defend yourself means you successfully did something. Bullshit.
> And they didn't block the water stream, they INTERRUPT the stream when then continues unhindered right after. same attack, same lethality. Horrible example.


And Gyuki was hurt because it lost its tails.

Kurama can regenerate BECAUE he's in an Avatar. Literally made of Chakra.



kokodeshide said:


> The manga repeatedly mentions hashiramas suppression. Does the Mokujin have Juubidama level durability? No. Does the Mokujin have Country level attacks? No. Could the Mokujin Blitz SM Naruto? Doubt it. Could the Mokujin supress chakra? Yes Is that what he was trying to do to kyuubi? Yes. So wtf are you talking about?


The datebook never mentions suppression and flat out implies the opposite. Stop with your bullshit, dude.



kokodeshide said:


> And what is the SS going to do to the Juubi? Punch him alot? the Juubi tanks his own Bijuudama INSIDE himself, contained. Dramatically amplifying the yield. And he also tanked a combpressed Juubidama on himself, no effect at all. The SS would not do a FUCKING THING to the Juubi. Or Kyuubi for that matter.


I'm talking about the Kyuubi.



kokodeshide said:


> offense isn't just powerful jutsu, it is also sealing, chakra absorption, BFR, Genjutsu.
> 
> 
> And you may think, well, it was close. Nope, not even. none of these were close. At all.


Just completely omit the fact that it says the Mokujin has strong physical attacks right after it mentions it excels at offense and defense.



kokodeshide said:


> NOPE. Not true. Rarely has been true.
> 
> Bee shits on KCM, they fought together.
> 
> ...


Bee and Naruto are close.

Itachi outclassing Sasuke was shown.

Sasuke WITH his KN Cloak and Jugo is included because that's what he had while he fought.

RSM Naruto with his Ashura Avatar. Without that, they're near even, as shown flat out..

Tobirama and Hashirama is already explained in the Manga...

Orochimaru and Hiruzen are close in power barring ET. I'd say Oro wins, although the point is PS and Kurama are close. They don't have to be EXACT equals.

Five Kage were all relative to each other.

Naruto and Sakura both contributed. In P1, the difference was made obvious.

I'll agree on Rookie 9.

Regardless, Kurama and PS fought together 3 separate times and have similar feats.



kokodeshide said:


> No it isn' The difference between V4 Susano and then next level up isnt a huge difference. The difference of a small TBB and a big tbb is literally a difference of over 10000 times the amount of chakra. Basic geometry. Everytime a sphere doubles it volumes multiplies by 8. That's exponential growth.
> So a TBB a foot wide has 8 fuckin times less chakra of a TBB 2 feet wide. A TBB 4 feet wide has 8 times the chakra of a a TBB 2 feet wide and 64 times more than a TBB 1 foot wide, ya dig? All i did was quadruple the size of the TBB and I have 64 fuckin times the chakra. And gyuuki contributed next to nothing. 5 bijuu together charging barely made a big TBB and Gyuuki is their level. He contributed no more than 1/6th of the TBB.
> A v4 susano is nearly the same size as a PS. Unless im forgetting some form in between V4 and PS


You do know size isn't equivalent to power all the time, right?



kokodeshide said:


> No, that isn't how it works, you'd have to show me they can survive an attack of CST's magnitude.


I've already one so.



kokodeshide said:


> They didnt take the attack at all. they got hit by rubble being pushed aside.


They were in the attack. The rubble is coming from the force of the attack.



kokodeshide said:


> Kirin is a instant flash of energy. CST is not. Katsuyu is fucking durable, dont trash Katsuyu, bro.


Really doesn't matter. Juubito's ground pound had the same effect.

I agree Katsuyu is durable.



kokodeshide said:


> Orochimaru TOUCHED KN4 and was disintegrated. Katsuyu survived inside that no problem. Tanked CST a fucking crazy level move. Do I think Katsuyu who can split apart into many pieces and is literally a GIANT moosh creature with no bones can tank all forms of attacks like shown can out tank Tsunade CERTAINLY, with NO DOUBT.
> Mokujin never tanked a TBB, it caught one, thats not an exploding one.
> a TBB is pathetic compared to CST. CST is a solid force. a TBB explosion is not. and CST destroyed way more material.
> 
> Weaker Susano have been destroyed by Hirudora. And PS has been destroyed by a physical move, SS. a move nowhere near the power of CST. PS was also obliterated by the Juubidama, just putting that out there, not implying CST is stronger.


Oro's snake, not Oro. His fist touched kN4 no problem.

"No problem" *admits she nearly died.

Susano'o was literally never destroyed by Hirodura, nor is a weaker Susano'o PS level, nor is Hirodura weak.

SS is strong.



kokodeshide said:


> many cubic miles of solid rock didnt stop CST. Madara and Hashirama arent either.


They don't need to even stop the attack. All they have to do is cause minimal damage. 



kokodeshide said:


> You arent understanding me.
> Im am saying adding layers does not increase the durability of said layers. it just increases the overall protection. but the chakra doesn't suddenly become harder.
> 1 steel panel might not be pullet proof to a 9mm. 2 will. but that doesnt mean the steal got harder.


But that's literally not what's happening. The material is transforming from bones to armor.



kokodeshide said:


> What? I dont even understand your point.


You said why would Madara control Kurama if he could defeat him. I answered.



kokodeshide said:


> Nope, I'm saying that if a Bijuus body is so durable that it takes a LONG ass time for hidan to do worthy damage, they are durable as fuck. Im also saying that those rods pieced gyuukis tails. Also, the rods inside the bijuu were held in place so firmly by the bijuus body that it took SM and KCM to remove them. That Points to their durability.
> Shukaku doesnt need to be durable,the bra can manipulate his body as he showed against madara.


And Hidan's scythe is fodder.



kokodeshide said:


> Yeah, sure, im not saying that he cant hurt them, im saying the damage isnt oneshot worthy and he certainly cant just beat them with no danger.


I'd disagree, but at least you admit he can tangle with hem.



kokodeshide said:


> He barely got anything, he still wasn't very powerful. And the weak obito still pierced Madara.


Rikudou Chakra is still Rikudou Chakra.

Weak Obito feat would be an outlier unless you think he's > Lava Style FRS.



kokodeshide said:


> Look at the anime and manga, both have it go from day to near sundown.


IIRC didn't Kakuzu explicitly tell Hidan to stop taking so long with the Ritual? It could be assumed they defeated her earlier, although it doesn't matter tbh.



kokodeshide said:


> You arent using context at all here.


What's this even supposed to mean? Isn't it obvious?

Sanbi hurt by C1 in water.
Gyuki tanked Juubidama with little damage.



kokodeshide said:


> All I'll say is this, If i said. "All 8th gate gai did was punch madara" to downplay the feat, what would you say?


I had no intention of downplaying the feat. But coolio.



kokodeshide said:


> The Mazo was not unable to fight wtf? It gets up right after.
> Yeah, SM is stronger, but KCM is still strong.
> A TBB didnt even hurt the mazo mid transformation. The biggest TBB we have ever seen shot.
> 
> The only thing we have seen hurt the mazo was Kamui.


Mazo was getting bullied so hard daddy Obito had to come in and stop it.

Transformation healing exists.



kokodeshide said:


> No, Kurama doesn't have instant healing. He has Accelerated healing
> 
> And thats not what happened to Obito. He healed because he took in massive amounts of chakra. Just like how Kisame healed his whole chest. Or tsunade getting put back together by absorbing Karins chakra. Or madara healing when he absorbed thats fallen Sshinobis KN cloak. Obito also has a healing factor.



And transformation healing still exists, and what evidence do you have the Mazo didn't already transform to the Juubi before the attack hit it and tank the attack?



kokodeshide said:


> Gai did equivalent of tripping him and Kakashi locked up an arm so he couldnt effectively protect himself.
> A child could trip a trained fighter. Now imagine that child tripped you and then you got uppercut'd by 2 other fighters while another kid was holding your arm.


Fair enough, but Kurama still beats the Mazo.



kokodeshide said:


> HUH?
> Same chakra through 10 tails and 2 arms vs 2 arms and legs. The chakra of the juubi was more spread out.


Gedo Mazo broke through the sandwich. Juubi had trouble with it. You DON'T see the problem with this? Lmao



kokodeshide said:


> It has chakra because it is alive my friend. How else did the Mazo power the Zetsu and keep Madara alive?
> Primed to take loads of chakra because it just was full of chakra.
> You think Naruto could have just taken kyuubi so easily if he hadn't been the jinchuriki to him just a few minutes before. Minato is far more talented and powerful than Base naruto but even he was like holy fuck this chakra is heavy when it was first put in him.
> 
> If you use something old for the first time in a long time you have to take it slow so it doesn't break but once you see everything is good then its fine to be more rough with it.


This is Sage Light levels of head canon.



kokodeshide said:


> Because you need big antennas for long distance brodcasting. Isn't that obvious? He uses them as chakra broadcasters and recievers. This was all explained in the pain arc. Obito didn't need to do that because he was right next to his 6 paths of pain.
> Nagato needs lots of rods to control them too because just one wouldn't get enough signal. That is shown by him saying he could control naruto up close with just 1 rod inside him.


He put the rods on the Pains... The rods on his back were put by the Mazo. Do you have a scan that the rods on the back had anything to do with this?



kokodeshide said:


> Huh? No way.


Yes, the scan in the Pro arc was FAR bigger. In the Nine Tails attack arc, Kurama was literally seen from across the Leaf Village, still as a gigantic monster.



kokodeshide said:


> A common excuse for those with no evidence. not even a shred of it.


Sorry, I don't waste my time using science and making calcs on an INCONSISTENT Manga made for TWELVE YEAR OLDS while claiming NAGATO beats Hashirama/Madara.

You do realize Kishimoto would laugh at your face if you brought up a calc to him, right? The dude can't even scale sizes properly lmao.



kokodeshide said:


> Uhhh, what? He still absolutely dominated him. Infinite Sage mode didnt do jack shit. He could do what he did with just 1 spare clone gathering sage chakra.
> And he got stronger, ok maybe, how much? Stronger than Kn6? FUCK NO.


So you're saying KN6 > 50% Kurama? SM Naruto is physically stronger than KN6, isn't he?



kokodeshide said:


> Do you know what KN stands for? Kyuubi Naruto. KN9 is when the seal breaks and gives naruto full kyuubi powers as a JINCHURIKI, then he dies and kyuubi escapes. When kyuubi was released from kushina she was KN9(KK9 lol).
> 
> So no, it is not a fallacy. Bijuu ARE more powerful through their Jinchuriki, as stated plenty of times.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know what KN means. 

KN9 isn't what you said it is. It's literally Kurama breaking out of Naruto's body. KN8 would be your equivalent of "KN9" That's why it's during the 9th tail that Kurama tells Naruto to rip the seal off, so Kurama can finally escape.

Bijuu are more powerful when their Jinchuriki can control their powers.. Kurama is flat out giving Naruto his Chakra and Naruto is acting as a miniature Kurama, as stated. Naruto has no control..



kokodeshide said:


> What are you talking about? What is inconsistent? I have analyzed these pics to hell and back for years. What the hell is inconsistent?


One moment, the explosion dwarfs the Homage Mountain and is around the size of the supposed FOD, the second moment it's way smaller and has nowhere near the same diameter just by eyeballing it. The explosion would have made the humans and Gamakichi look like ants if it was supposed FOD size.



kokodeshide said:


> And he did that while fresh right? not after just fighting an entire village, using CST, fighting several Sage Narutos, beating Naruto and gang and also fighting KN6. None of that happened, right?


Cool, but it doesn't stop the fact that he flat out collapsed because of how much he put into it.



kokodeshide said:


> Way to take 2 statements about different things and mix them.
> Rasenshuriken did not hurt kurama. truth.
> SM naruto did knock around kurama. truth.
> Both are 2 true statements representing different fucking things. Did A3 hurt gyuuki substantially? no.
> Did he "knock him around", no doubt. cut off 8 tails. Both are valid points.


They're valid, but at one moment you go from thinking one is impressive to then saying it isn't impressive two seconds later to prove a point.



kokodeshide said:


> CST and CT both are more powerful than any attack Hashirama or madara did. It is also more impressive. Pain single-handedly soloed the strongest Ninja village in under an hour. He then fought one of the worlds strongest ninja, with an army of boss toads and sage toads who have knowledge on him, while he had no access to his best ability. An ability that when it returned singlehandedly allowed him to beat the ENTIRE naruto gang in a few pages. Hinata saves the day. Then he fought KN6, which is easily stronger than any bijuu but full Kurama. He won. Then KN8 came out, Minato saves the day, then KN8 disappeared leaving SM Naruto. then he struggled a bit with the stress and CT fell apart. He then beats SM Narutos attack and Naruto SQUEAKS out a win because pain was too tired to push a few Naruto clones.


Madara shat on the Five Kage with PS. Obliterated a division with meteors and some Taijutsu, and was still weaker than Hashirama.



kokodeshide said:


> EMS Hashiboob V2 susano Madara was beat by a basic combo by Gaara and SM Naruto.
> Rinnegan Hashiboob Madara couldn't even fuck with Naruto and Bee without mokuton. Then gets fucked by a nearly lifeless Gai with Hirudora. This is right after crippled and nearly legless Nagato got done thrashing Bee and Naruto in under 5 panels.


Gaara, Ohnoki, and SM Naruto. Characters he wasn't even paying attention to. 

Madara literally used a single fucking technique against Naruto and stopped fighting. Guy He threw him off screen, at which point Madara literally stopped fighting.

Madara never used PS, and he fought against a FAR stronger version of Naruto than Nagato. Manga flat out states Obito and Madara were the strongest at that point. Madara is hyped. by Kabuto to be his trump card. When Kabuto summons Edo Akatsuki, is Obito phased? No. Was he phased when Madara was summoned, yes?

Stop. You literally CANNOT win an argument in terms of portrayal with Nagato. Your best argument here is to say Nagato has better feats, which is respectable and okay.



kokodeshide said:


> Hashirama was killed in a war. I guarantee you the forces he faced did not equal the forces Pain faced. The leaf had the 3 strongest clans in the world on their side. So Hashirama lost to an army of lesser ninja. The lesser pain Solo'd an entire village casually. Losing only 1 body to Kakashi and Chozas attacks. Two of the leafs top Jounin.


We literally have no clue how he died, dude.

And that moment when you're so desperate to downplay that you intentionally look at the least mentioned aspect of a character and take that over ALL of the hype the character has or his better showings.



kokodeshide said:


> So you are saying crippled edo nagato with no ability to summon the Mazo due to fake eyes is weaker than Rinnegan Young Hashiboob boosted Madara therefore VotE Madara is stronger?


This version of Madara is physically weaker than alive Madara due to canon. He has Mokuton has (far inferior to PS) + Rinnegan (he never used) + immortality, which Kurama makes up for.

This version of Madara was Kabuto's trump card and was still beaten by weakened Ego Hashirama.



kokodeshide said:


> Also, it is said that madara was the trump card, it is also said that Nagato was the strongest Edo. This is even after the mystery edo was shown.


When?

Why would Kabuto use Madara as his trump card rather than Nagato?



kokodeshide said:


> And the next villan bs means nothing in Naruto. Obito had a deal to not touch Konoha. He could only do that once Itachi died. Yet Pain called for an attack on Konoha, violating that deal, why? because Obito can't say no to Nagato, only guide him as he is not stronger.


You do realize Nagato is counted in Obito's firepower, right? This is a contradiction.

Obito issues the order (before Itachi dies). Nagato attack the Leaf. That's how it went. Didn't have shit to do with Nagato being stronger. Obito flat out states Nagato was his subordinate. Take that however you will, it's a canon statement.

Nagato can't defy his superior.



kokodeshide said:


> Obito also had a clusterfuck of tools, 6 edo jinchuriki, the gedo mazo, broken Kamui, Rinnegan boost, nearly infinite chakra it seems, with Edo Rinnegan Hashiboob Madara on his side and over like 50 chapters failed to do what a crippled nerfed kabuto controlled Nagato did in 5 pages.


Because Naruto was stronger + plot + had backup.

Madara could have literally soloed as an Ego Tensei, considering Naruto has no Fuinjutsu. You do know this, right?

Nagato fought against Naruto and Bee all alone who were weakened by stupidity no Jutsu (i.e. Naruto forgetting Nagato's techniques every 2 seconds and Bee not using BM until the end) who were weaker forms than their latter War Arc versions.

This is flat out like saying Nagato > Kaguya because she failed to take down RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.

Also not like Madara captured all the Bijuu, which Obito, Nagato, and the Akatsuki took years to do. I understand it's a false equivalence, but even the fucking Manga glorifies it. 



kokodeshide said:


> That says takes your next villain is stronger logic and shove it. Obito wasnt stronger, he was more resourceful you could say.


Or he was stronger and facts (Kishimoto) doesn't care about your feelings.



kokodeshide said:


> A lot of the world though the earth was flat. doesnt mean shit.
> 
> And if people came to that conclusion due to a small section of the fanbase cleverly misrepresenting calcs and feats then yes, I am some"top genius" who is here to show the world Pain.
> 
> Way to use a fallacies argument though.


People nowadays are educated, so false equivalence.

Although I'd much rather take the consensus over you (no offense you clever little sneak )  because a majority of them aren't biased.

I mean, you have Pain listed as your favorite character and think he's at the same level as Rinnegan RT SM Madara. You seriously think you can convince me Nagato beats Madara/Hashirama? Lolll

I go by what I think authors' intent/Manga says. And Manga says you're wrong. Soloking Nagato doesn't exist. Deal with it.



kokodeshide said:


> I actually dont even use the biggest number calced for FRS. I use the smaller number from the Small CT calc.
> And the feat was a DC feat. The rock wasnt destroyed, it was blasted away. And thats for a BASIC ST. CST is FAR stronger.


Doesn't stop the fact you take an outlier FRS feat.

I could say Itachi beats Juubidara, but say he loses to Kaguya. Wank is wank, my bruddha.



kokodeshide said:


> Huh? He literally DID kill Kakashi with a ST. Thats how Kakashi died in that arc. the one ST Pain did that hit Kakashi into the ground killed him and nearly killed Choza.


Kakashi died after Kamui, bro. He was still alive after ST.



kokodeshide said:


> That overpowered 2 SM Narutos casually. KN6 Is much stronger.


And yet Naruto wasn't damaged.



kokodeshide said:


> One of the most durable people in Naruto.


Oh wait, I forgot SM Naruto is > PS and Mokujin in your twisted interpretation of the Manga.

Didn't know Pain Arc Naruto was already > Gokage.

Despite his equal Sasuke struggling with A and Danzo.



kokodeshide said:


> After he was so exhausted a basic ST drained him.


Hm, no. Not only was Naruto also weakened, but it was a viable counter even beforehand.



kokodeshide said:


> SM Jiraiya actually never touched the dogs I don't think. The dogs kind kinda just disappear in the manga, no explanation lol.
> And the toads weight is still enough to pin Kurama. So they arent nothing.


SM Jman's kick must have killed the dog according to you lmao.

Anyway, it was actually the rhino I believe. He kicked it through , then failed to do any real damage to Pain



kokodeshide said:


> That would mean you, like i said, are rejecting Nagatos portrayal.
> A sage of the six paths should be above a god of shinobi, no? Considering the 1st and 2nd are, the 3rd isn't?


The second one admitted inferiority.

Also, not like the third one is fodder compared to the first one.



kokodeshide said:


> Or the MOTHERFUCKING EYES OF THE *TRUE* GOD OF SHINOBI.
> That is pure and unrestricted BIAS. The fucking combo of the two people you are talking about results in the damn eyes. Rinnegan has always been portrayed as the peak of shinobi. Nagato was considered a god. Obito considered him a true sage of 6 paths. He was the only ninja other than Hagoromo who could use Rinne Tensei and not die. He was also a master of all rinnegan jutsu unlike anyone else we have seen in the show other than most likely Hagoromo.


Say that to Rinnegan Madara who still only drew with Hashirama, with immortality and Sharingan techs. 

Nagato's also not the original wielder.

Please stop with this wank. Nagato can't use RT without dying. If you really want to go by what Konan THINKS about a Jutsu she's NEVER seen before, then according to her EVERY Rinnegan user can use the Six Paths Technique. Take that however you want.

Please. There are legit 5 statements in the Manga which say Obito can use the Rinnegan. Sasuke and Madara also can. No diff. Momoshiki's the only iffy one because he's not from Earth so he may not be so acquainted, although he's shown Chakra Rods and Chakra Absorption so he prolly can.



kokodeshide said:


> I get it, I know why you would think Madara and hashirama is stronger. You falsely believe CT and CST is weaker than PS and SS.
> You believe Madara doing worse in a weaker form against the same people Nagato raped is more impressive. You believe EMS Madara is equal to the 3rd Sage of 6 paths, why, idk.
> You dont believe Preta does what it always does.
> 
> I know i can convince you, the first step is just getting the blinders of the fandom off your eyes. I am using straight up logic, no baseless assumptions.


"No baseless assumptions."

Singlehandedly makes the biggest assumption I've heard of (bar prolly SL) about Gedo Mazo.

Also:
Uses calcs on an inconsistent Manga and takes it over blatant Manga portrayal and hype.

Takes low end showings for Hashi/Mada and takes high ends for Nagato.

"Preta Path" Madara and Hashirama both have counters for this shit. 

etc.

He ACTUALLY thinks he can convince me, lmao.

This is coming from one of the most indifferent debaters on this section: I swear that I have no biased for the founders over Nagato. I blatantly don't know how Nagato can win, going by what I've read. You can try to convince me. You'll fail.



kokodeshide said:


>


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 3, 2019)

How does Nagato deal with perfect Susano'o, Kurama, or the the combination of the two?


----------



## genii96 (Mar 4, 2019)

Nagato has more firepower than Madara does, and has much more counters for Madara than vice versa


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2019)

Consecutive normal PS Susano'O wind slash GG


----------



## blk (Mar 4, 2019)

Not sure how Nagato can deal with PS. 

He cannot bust it effectively and he can't block the shockwaves of the slashes more than once essentially (since a regular ST is not gonna cut it).
One single hit is gonna kill or significantly incapacitate Nagato - while Madara can spam these slashes.

The differences of power and durability (thanks to PS for Madara) are too great.

Madara also knows to not hit him directly with the sword because of Preta Path (assuming it can absorb it).

Even by portrayal, the founders are at the top of the non-god tier list or (especially hashirama) at the start of the god tiers. 
Nagato is simply not in the same league.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 5, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Please learn to multi quote, man.
> Look at the manga explanation of the jutsu, bruh.
> 
> Is that why Nagato no diffed the same people Madara lost too?
> ...



Are you SERIOUS? EVERY instance in which substitution has been used there are no movement lines where they should be, the number one evidence of movement. Movement lines on the character and in the background. Converging lines are not always used to convey movement but rather simply draw attention to the character in question, but they can be used to depict movement in my experience. I explained everything you need to know. I posted you the databook entry before, and it exists on these forums. Body Flicker supercharges the body and specifically the legs, it's something everyone learns at a basic level just from mastering tree rocking. Your mileage with the technique from there depends on how much chakra you flow through your body and how good your chakra control with the technique is. Body Flicker is used with a smokescreen sometimes and sometimes they leave behind leaves and other crap. Even in those instances, the laws of physics for high speed motion are still followed. It's a D rank technique, while Substitution is E rank. Two different techniques. Never a stated connection. Substitution allows restrained targets to escape. Zaku was PREDICTING where Sakura would pop up instead of trying to follow her movement. Very obviously teleportation, because that was the same thing Raikage attempted to do in order to counter FTG. Itachi has never physically moved when he has used subsitution. Neither did Gaara, Neither did Yamato, Neither did Naruto in the land of waves arc, neither did Kakashi, neither did Sakura, neither did Animal Pain, neither did Hashirama. They were all in mid-air, physically restrained,  reappeared in mid-air, etc Itachi was literally being held by Nagato yet he left a shadow clone in his place and reappeared in mid air. It's blatantly obvious because they can sometimes summon logs or clones without any clones or logs previously visible in the enviornment to both the characters or to the reader.  Itachi was grappling Hebi  Sasuke yet he was able to leave a shadow clone in his place and then reappear in mid-air and rain down three kunai. Sasuke has sharingan and he couldn't see through the ruse despite standing literally inches away from Itachi AND holding him, and there was no indicators of a shadow clone being poofed into existence. Sasuke hit the wrong Itachi because he thought the one that was grappling him was the real one. Itachi left a shadow clone in his place then REAPPEARED behind Kakashi, which is why Kurenai called him superhuman, and that was without realizing that he didn't just merely spawn a clone without any smoke, he created a clone without any smoke and then left it in his place as he teleported behind Kakashi. I'm sick of you arguing against canon. Kakashi didn't notice it until it was too late, it's obvious based on his water clone's thought bubble and suprise as indicated by the "!!". Kakashi has weaker reflexes than EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto as well as I proved. Sasuke can track Juubito and Kabuto could physically react to arrows that nearly blitzed War arc MS Kakashi, so I don't want to see any dishonesty from you anymore on this matter. Even in part one, Sasuke says Kakashi used "speed and skill" to make a SWITCH and it's blatantly obvious that he teleported. Naruto was restraining him hardcore and yet Kakashi just vanished out of his grip and naruto barely moved except for the forces due to gravity, and a naruto clone took Kakashi's place, obvious teleportation. And Sasuke saying Speed doesn't mean anything because the characters and the mangaka in general do a bad job of distinguishing Body Flicker from actual teleportation in the first place, it's a miracle that nowadays most naruto fans have come to understand the difference.


LMAO are you serious bro? I know exactly what I am talking about. Akatsuki used to move as a group at one point in time, that's all that matters. And they only started moving in pairs in more recent years as Jiraiya clearly stated. What does that mean? Obito left everything in the hands of Nagato until Akatsuki members were dying left and right and Itachi was about to die. They all are familiar with each other abilities. Hidan even says he has the slowest attack speed out of everyone. They switched to traveling in pairs for a number of reasons. One, traveling as a group isn't really incognito. They are all known and wanted criminals and  They have plenty of firepower but they are all prideful and rarely coordinate with each other. They generally all like soloing 1v1 while the other member watches.  Moving as pairs is more efficient for searching and hunting across the countries and having two means betrayal is minimized and they have a backup option in case a jinchuriki battle gets out of hand. You don't get it. Itachi is a hero. If he really wanted to capture Naruto back in Part one, he brings Pain, period. No Tsunade at the time, so CST easily one shots the village at that point in time, right after Itachi picks naruto up at his hotel room. Good game. Itachi kept Obito in check, who was forced to make excuses to Nagato for why Nagato couldn't get vengeance on Konoha like he always wanted. That vengeance came AFTER Itachi died. Itachi and Kisame were sent instead and Obito allowed it obviously because he knew what Itachi's game was the whole time. What Itachi didn't know was that Obito saw through him. Itachi helped him slaugther the clan and Itachi acted like he was doing it out of spite, but Obito knew it was an act because he consulted with Danzo. Itachi told Obito that Konoha was off-limits  and that agreement was the condition on which he would help the Akatsuki in all it's other goals, but he didn't think Obito knew his true intentions, which is why he is surprised when KCM naruto explains that to him. and Itachi made even better excuses for why Kisame and himself came back empty handed, stalling for time successfully, allowing naruto to become stronger and for Konoha to become more wary of Akatsuki's threat, reminding the elders of their agreement.  Once Itachi was ready to die, everything was set into place and Itachi achieved everything he wanted to before dying for his brother's sake. Kotoamatsukami would have one shot Sasuke and or Obito had either of them decided to take his eyes after death and come after Konoha. so yeah, bringing up Jiraiya is just dishonest, because in the official translation Itachi essentially said Itachi+kisame+ Akatsuki would at best stalemate Jiraiya ROFL. Totally wasn't wanking Jiraiya bro to protect him from Kisame, who clearly thought Jiraiya was some god tier shinobi just because he was called one of the legendary three ninja. 


ROFL bro talk about funny. The Town level calc I did was a for a SMALL SECTION of the valley, and even THEN it was a low end feat in many ways, which you completely ignored rofl, no surprise. Don't lie to me bro. Hashirama was stated to carve up the landscape even better than Madara can, and Madara split two mountains, lifted them up, and smashed his own meteor remains with a casual slash designed to break the morale of the 5 Kage and nothing more. Slash those blades with more intent and say do it 4 times in quick succession, and he is easily Large Island level/ Country level alone based on some calcs I have seen, with the absolute low end being mountain level for his casual slash. Even as an Edo with six paths chakra and hashirama cells, the Edo Tensei nerf still made him weaker than his alive VOTE self according to hashirama, because hashirama stated he REGAINED his PREVIOUS strength again after being revived. Edo tensei still brought people back SHORT of their maximum potential despite Kabuto's improvements bruh, and six paths chakra/ hashi cells didn't make up the difference for Madara. Even Tobirama was slower due to Edo Tensei nerf. So his country level feat of bansho-teniniing giant meteors is a scale of power that still scales with EMS Madara, even if EMS Madara technically can't use that exact technique due to not having a rinnegan. Furthermore, we know that Hashi is country level for the simple fact that the valley became the BORDER between the land of fire and the land of sound. Look up the naruto maps bro. The Actual valley length is easily on the order of kilometers long, I just don't know how much to give a precise calc. But it doesn't matter, and still you ignore the amount of joules per CUBIC CM needed to bust perfect susano'o rofl. That easily in itself requires mountain plus joules of energy just to even chip off a square inch bro. You ignored all the other statements that put Nagato below Hashirama in power too, which is just great man.

Madara also clearly used Shinra Tensei twice too rofl. We know he used Shinra Tensei to escape the 5 Kage trap for the simple reason that Susano'o always starts by forming AROUND the user like a cylinder to form the rib cage, as we clearly saw in Sasuke's usage. Raikage's hands were still holding him and were still inside Sasuke's Susano'o even after he landed the liger bomb. When Madara escapes the 5 Kage trap, no signs of susano'o chakra  around the sand and all we see is Gaara's sand being blown away. Then In the NEXT Panel, Madara starts forming Susano'o because he was hyped that the 5 kage were worthy opponents. He also more than likely used it to blow apart the deity gates after Black Zetsu revived him with rinnebirth. Bro, you gotta stop being dishonest seriously. All the manga facts show that Madara can use all the techniques. He said so himself. Konan said so. You are in denial. He can use Chibaku Tensei and Bansho Tenin but he can't use Shinra tensei despite seeing him do so and the fact he clearly has DEVA PATH???? What kind of logic is that, all because you don't want Nagato to lose ? smh. 

ROFL bro. You do realize that Hashirama's Chojo kebutsu carved out a large valley with the EXPLOSION of those same hands colliding right? If they all pile up on Nagato's barrier then the shockwaves alone would obliterate Nagato. We gotta talk about PHYSICS bro.

I only know how to multiquote the long way, is there an easier way to do it? I apologize and definitely will try to do so on my next post, it's partially laziness plus time consuming is the issue when I have to type out a large response.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 5, 2019)

X III said:


> I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove it was destroyed, otherwise I can say it was withdrawn.


That is the single most ass backwards debate logic i have ever heard in my entirety of debating.
It was in an explosion, YOU have to prove it was withdrawn.


X III said:


> There is an inconsistency if you think Mokujin is on par with Kurama, yet it was destroyed by a single attack.


after interference. 


X III said:


> Madara is universally laughed at for that statement.
> 
> Zetsu pierced Madara with a Six Paths Arm.


a 6 path arm ten times weaker than him


X III said:


> He's in a fucking battle. Stop with the false equivalences.


 Fuck off with this nonsense. Prove he was hurt or shut the fuck up.



X III said:


> Yet he was unable to escape the Shinsuusenju arm.


cause he got sealed right after being picked up.



X III said:


> FRS legitimately hurt him.


FRS legitimately stunned him and ruffled his fur.


X III said:


> Legitimately asking why it was withdrawn. Now tell me why Hashirama withdrew it after sealing Kurama.
> 
> Shinsuusenju AND Mokujin there, yet gone after Kurama is sealed.


show me.



X III said:


> Is it plot? Who knows. But I'm still waiting for your scan.


 No, you show me the aerial view where everything is gone.



X III said:


> And Gyuki was hurt because it lost its tails.
> 
> Kurama can regenerate BECAUE he's in an Avatar. Literally made of Chakra.


They ARE chakra beasts you fuck. 



X III said:


> The datebook never mentions suppression and flat out implies the opposite. Stop with your bullshit, dude.


Fuck off, put 2 and 2 together. 



X III said:


> I'm talking about the Kyuubi.


Cool, what is a bunch of weak punches going to do to him?


X III said:


> Just completely omit the fact that it says the Mokujin has strong physical attacks right after it mentions it excels at offense and defense.


Or completely disregard the fact that Kyuubi was fine after taking far stronger hits.



X III said:


> Bee and Naruto are close.


Ha, no. Bee saves Naruto several times.


X III said:


> Itachi outclassing Sasuke was shown.


So they arent close.



X III said:


> Sasuke WITH his KN Cloak and Jugo is included because that's what he had while he fought.


ok? they still fought as equals. so they werent actually equal at all.


X III said:


> RSM Naruto with his Ashura Avatar. Without that, they're near even, as shown flat out..


HAHAHA. Bullshit, why did sasuke need the 9 bijuu then?



X III said:


> Tobirama and Hashirama is already explained in the Manga...





X III said:


> Orochimaru and Hiruzen are close in power barring ET. I'd say Oro wins, although the point is PS and Kurama are close. They don't have to be EXACT equals.


Except Hiruzen bum rushed Oro and beat him in a single fuckin exchange



X III said:


> Five Kage were all relative to each other.


Not at all. Mei was FAR weaker



X III said:


> Naruto and Sakura both contributed. In P1, the difference was made obvious.


was one not far stronger than the other?



X III said:


> Regardless, Kurama and PS fought together 3 separate times and have similar feats.


Similar feats? show me.



X III said:


> You do know size isn't equivalent to power all the time, right?


In this case it is.



X III said:


> I've already one so.


You have shown me nothing to indicate this


X III said:


> They were in the attack. The rubble is coming from the force of the attack.


Center of the attack and edge are MUCH different, my friend.


X III said:


> Really doesn't matter. Juubito's ground pound had the same effect.


The difference is, CST doesnt stop once the defense breaks.


X III said:


> Oro's snake, not Oro. His fist touched kN4 no problem.


 Oro still disintegrated. The punch also must not hhave contacted him fro long enough. or its inconsistent.



X III said:


> "No problem" *admits she nearly died.


After how fucking long? Oro took a second, she took like several minutes.



X III said:


> Susano'o was literally never destroyed by Hirodura, nor is a weaker Susano'o PS level, nor is Hirodura weak.


You'd have to explain why Madara lost control of his mokuton, was not shown again for a long time and was out of Susano. Otherwise, it was destroyed


X III said:


> SS is strong.


Not anywhere near CST


X III said:


> They don't need to even stop the attack. All they have to do is cause minimal damage.


Damage CST? How?


X III said:


> But that's literally not what's happening. The material is transforming from bones to armor.


Nope, It shows the stages unraveling. one layer under the other




X III said:


> And Hidan's scythe is fodder.


Lol, undamaged by any fight he was in. despite Asuma cutting up other weapons, his scythe was ok.


X III said:


> Rikudou Chakra is still Rikudou Chakra.
> 
> Weak Obito feat would be an outlier unless you think he's > Lava Style FRS.


FRS is not the same kind of attack. Piercing>>>Cutting


X III said:


> IIRC didn't Kakuzu explicitly tell Hidan to stop taking so long with the Ritual? It could be assumed they defeated her earlier, although it doesn't matter tbh.


30 minutes is whhat he says.



X III said:


> What's this even supposed to mean? Isn't it obvious?
> 
> Sanbi hurt by C1 in water.
> Gyuki tanked Juubidama with little damage.


Explosions in water are crazy powerful. And thats a feat for deidara. Also, junchuriki are stronger than bijuu, deidara mentions this, i assume that applies to nearly every aspect.


X III said:


> Mazo was getting bullied so hard daddy Obito had to come in and stop it.
> 
> Transformation healing exists.


4 on 1 lol. Obito couldn't win the 4 on 1 nor the 2 on 1 and madara lost a 3 on one to the same guys. what is your point?



X III said:


> And transformation healing still exists, and what evidence do you have the Mazo didn't already transform to the Juubi before the attack hit it and tank the attack?


Because the Juubi is MASSIVE, and the flame barrier is tiny lol wtf?



X III said:


> Fair enough, but Kurama still beats the Mazo.


I doubt it, not under Nagatos control. 



X III said:


> Gedo Mazo broke through the sandwich. Juubi had trouble with it. You DON'T see the problem with this? Lmao


You dont see that chakra divides among 14 limbs is weaker than chakra divided among 4?


X III said:


> This is Sage Light levels of head canon.


Read the fuckin manga if you think this is head canon, this is all explained.



X III said:


> He put the rods on the Pains... The rods on his back were put by the Mazo. Do you have a scan that the rods on the back had anything to do with this?


Link removed
Link removed
This is common Knowledge man, He uses the rods to transmit and receive chakra signals 


X III said:


> Yes, the scan in the Pro arc was FAR bigger. In the Nine Tails attack arc, Kurama was literally seen from across the Leaf Village, still as a gigantic monster.


Thats a perspective trick, bud. You could make the moon look as big as a mountain. Kishimoto loves wonky perspective shots.



X III said:


> Sorry, I don't waste my time using science and making calcs on an INCONSISTENT Manga made for TWELVE YEAR OLDS while claiming NAGATO beats Hashirama/Madara.
> 
> You do realize Kishimoto would laugh at your face if you brought up a calc to him, right? The dude can't even scale sizes properly lmao.


You do realize this is the single most fucking retarded argument on earth? You do realize that calcs arent even needed. Simple comparison works just fuckin fine. Unless you thin the Valley of the end is as big as konoha, you'd be fuckin retarded to imply CST was weaker than SS or PS.



X III said:


> So you're saying KN6 > 50% Kurama? SM Naruto is physically stronger than KN6, isn't he?


KN6 Is certainly portrayed above SM in all aspects but sensing. and SM naruto was beating on Kurama. Take that how you want.



X III said:


> Yes, I know what KN means.
> 
> KN9 isn't what you said it is. It's literally Kurama breaking out of Naruto's body. KN8 would be your equivalent of "KN9" That's why it's during the 9th tail that Kurama tells Naruto to rip the seal off, so Kurama can finally escape.
> 
> Bijuu are more powerful when their Jinchuriki can control their powers.. Kurama is flat out giving Naruto his Chakra and Naruto is acting as a miniature Kurama, as stated. Naruto has no control..


No, Wrong. Bee can use all 8 of his tails in V2. Best part is, the 9 was shown on Yamatos hand before Naruto even undid the seal. Naruto still Had 2 fuckin steps to undo the seal yet the 9 was appearing.



X III said:


> One moment, the explosion dwarfs the Homage Mountain and is around the size of the supposed FOD, the second moment it's way smaller and has nowhere near the same diameter just by eyeballing it. The explosion would have made the humans and Gamakichi look like ants if it was supposed FOD size.


They are on the other fuckin side of the village wtf are you talking about? Do you not understand perspective at all?


X III said:


> Cool, but it doesn't stop the fact that he flat out collapsed because of how much he put into it.


lol, you literally have no point here yet you still try and back it.


X III said:


> They're valid, but at one moment you go from thinking one is impressive to then saying it isn't impressive two seconds later to prove a point.


They are for 2 separate fuckin points, bro.



X III said:


> Madara shat on the Five Kage with PS. Obliterated a division with meteors and some Taijutsu, and was still weaker than Hashirama.


Ok? Was that division stronger than Konoha? Fuck no. Was that madara stronger than VotE madara? Fuck no.



X III said:


> Gaara, Ohnoki, and SM Naruto. Characters he wasn't even paying attention to.
> 
> Madara literally used a single fucking technique against Naruto and stopped fighting. Guy He threw him off screen, at which point Madara literally stopped fighting.


And you think pain was paying attention to everyone in konoha at once? What a horrible point.

Madara was fighting them for a while, THEN used mokuton,then Gai put his ass down. Madara didnt stop fighting, he was trying to accomplish his goal. He was beaten in that moment.


X III said:


> Madara never used PS, and he fought against a FAR stronger version of Naruto than Nagato. Manga flat out states Obito and Madara were the strongest at that point. Madara is hyped. by Kabuto to be his trump card. When Kabuto summons Edo Akatsuki, is Obito phased? No. Was he phased when Madara was summoned, yes?


Madara never used PS. Nagato never used the Mazo or CST.
A far stronger version of Naruto? Not in a way that matters, he negged the BM with Mokuton anyway.
Manga only ever flat out states that Nagato was the strongest actually. They never ever say Obito is stronger, in fact they basically show that he isnt. Cant use rinne tensei without dying, even with the massive life force of the Mazo in him he STILL isnt comparable to Nagato. He cant use both rinnegan while Nagato could. He couldnt use any path but outer path. He struggled with INSANE BACK UP against 2 people Nagato JUST finished THRASHING. What more could tell you Nagato is stronger. Seriously. They fought the same people. Nagato solo'd and Obito failed with 6 Edo Jinchuriki, the Mazo, and then later Madaras help.



X III said:


> Stop. You literally CANNOT win an argument in terms of portrayal with Nagato. Your best argument here is to say Nagato has better feats, which is respectable and okay.


Feats are the biggest part of portrayal.



X III said:


> We literally have no clue how he died, dude.
> 
> And that moment when you're so desperate to downplay that you intentionally look at the least mentioned aspect of a character and take that over ALL of the hype the character has or his better showings.


Bro, you wanna talk about desperate, You are literally falling back on the single worst argument ever, basically that some people, who dont know who the fuck Nagato is, called hashirama a god of shinobi.



X III said:


> This version of Madara is physically weaker than alive Madara due to canon. He has Mokuton has (far inferior to PS) + Rinnegan (he never used) + immortality, which Kurama makes up for.
> 
> This version of Madara was Kabuto's trump card and was still beaten by weakened Ego Hashirama.


Bullshit, this is easily proven wrong.
Edo madara, in  a weaker edo tensei, essentially stalemated virtually full power Hashirama. Hashi was tagged by the rods and Madara was caught by the dragon. Neither won the fight. If anything, Madara was the only one uninjured so he was more the winner in my eyes. 
VotE madara with kyuubi was outright beaten by hashirama. So, no, you are wrong. very wrong. 



X III said:


> When?
> 
> Why would Kabuto use Madara as his trump card rather than Nagato?


Because revealing Madara was bad for obito. And it is said on the color panel of Itachi and Nagato side by side.


X III said:


> You do realize Nagato is counted in Obito's firepower, right? This is a contradiction.
> 
> Obito issues the order (before Itachi dies). Nagato attack the Leaf. That's how it went. Didn't have shit to do with Nagato being stronger. Obito flat out states Nagato was his subordinate. Take that however you will, it's a canon statement.
> 
> Nagato can't defy his superior.


Nooooo. Obito issues the order to capture Naruto, only after itachi dies does he have Pain go to Konoha.


X III said:


> Because Naruto was stronger + plot + had backup.


 So you have no point. got it.



X III said:


> Madara could have literally soloed as an Ego Tensei, considering Naruto has no Fuinjutsu. You do know this, right?


Bee has Sealing jutsu so no.


X III said:


> Nagato fought against Naruto and Bee all alone who were weakened by stupidity no Jutsu (i.e. Naruto forgetting Nagato's techniques every 2 seconds and Bee not using BM until the end) who were weaker forms than their latter War Arc versions.


Bee was not in a weaker form what are you talking about? Naruto while moderately weaker, was not weaker in a way that changed either fight.



X III said:


> This is flat out like saying Nagato > Kaguya because she failed to take down RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.


 HAHAHAHA no...



X III said:


> Also not like Madara captured all the Bijuu, which Obito, Nagato, and the Akatsuki took years to do. I understand it's a false equivalence, but even the fucking Manga glorifies it.


like you said, false equivalence.



X III said:


> Or he was stronger and facts (Kishimoto) doesn't care about your feelings.


So no point, got it.



X III said:


> People nowadays are educated, so false equivalence.


Ha, people TODAY believe this so no. And even then, the point stands because i was REFERRING to a long time ago.



X III said:


> Although I'd much rather take the consensus over you (no offense you clever little sneak ) because a majority of them aren't biased.


Not biased. ok. When you say that You can never be convinced then call me biased that is fuckin comical.



X III said:


> I mean, you have Pain listed as your favorite character and think he's at the same level as Rinnegan RT SM Madara. You seriously think you can convince me Nagato beats Madara/Hashirama? Lolll


Pain isn't, no way. I never said that. But yet you think i believe that, how funny. Could it be you are assuming false shit to convince yourself that i am wrong?


X III said:


> I go by what I think authors' intent/Manga says. And Manga says you're wrong. Soloking Nagato doesn't exist. Deal with it.


Except you consistently misrepresent everything about the founders vs nagato.


X III said:


> Doesn't stop the fact you take an outlier FRS feat.
> 
> I could say Itachi beats Juubidara, but say he loses to Kaguya. Wank is wank, my bruddha.


Huh? How is it an outlier? FRS is strong as fuck. Pain gets turned to paste by it yet survives a TBB. 


X III said:


> Kakashi died after Kamui, bro. He was still alive after ST.


He died after a baby boy kamui. ST is what did the damage to put him in that state in the first place. You telling me that by the end of their fight Kakashi was 1 Kamui away from death?



X III said:


> And yet Naruto wasn't damaged.


SM is durable as fuck.


X III said:


> Oh wait, I forgot SM Naruto is > PS and Mokujin in your twisted interpretation of the Manga.


Oh wait, i never said any of that, wow!


X III said:


> Didn't know Pain Arc Naruto was already > Gokage.


Never said that either, interesting here, I am beginning to sense a trend.



X III said:


> Despite his equal Sasuke struggling with A and Danzo.


Sasuke was not his equal in any way at that point. If naruto went to the FKS with the same amount of prep he had for pain, he would have absolutely slaughtered the 5 kage.



X III said:


> Hm, no. Not only was Naruto also weakened, but it was a viable counter even beforehand.


It wasn't a counter as it never worked. And naruto wasnt weakened, he was still able to make hundreds of clones.


X III said:


> SM Jman's kick must have killed the dog according to you lmao.


He never kicked the dog, bro.



X III said:


> Anyway, it was actually the rhino I believe. He kicked it through , then failed to do any real damage to Pain


Look at the legs, not the rhino lololol. Biology fail.
Thats a durability feat for pain, bruh. You see how this works for you?
PS tanks TBB. Madaras susano is strong.
Pain tanks a Sage kick. Must be weak.
Fuckin biased as all hell.



X III said:


> The second one admitted inferiority.


No, like i said, Madara at full prime, both Rinnegan, Slaughters Hashirama. Limbo murders him. And he already basically did beat him as i just said.



X III said:


> Also, not like the third one is fodder compared to the first one.


Everyone is fodder to the first one.



X III said:


> Say that to Rinnegan Madara who still only drew with Hashirama, with immortality and Sharingan techs.


More like he stalemated for that moment but even with a giant FRS and another sealing jutsu he still wasn't defeated.



X III said:


> Nagato's also not the original wielder.


And? Who gives a flying fuck, this is the fuckin worst argument that people always use. it literally just means he cant use Limbo, that's it.


X III said:


> Please stop with this wank. Nagato can't use RT without dying. If you really want to go by what Konan THINKS about a Jutsu she's NEVER seen before, then according to her EVERY Rinnegan user can use the Six Paths Technique. Take that however you want.


This makes no fucking sense. Konan has no knowledge of any other rinnegan user. Nagato is also an uzumaki with uchiha eyes. Madara and obito are uchiha with bits of DNA. They dont have the uzumaki life force. 



X III said:


> Please. There are legit 5 statements in the Manga which say Obito can use the Rinnegan. Sasuke and Madara also can. No diff. Momoshiki's the only iffy one because he's not from Earth so he may not be so acquainted, although he's shown Chakra Rods and Chakra Absorption so he prolly can.





X III said:


> "No baseless assumptions."
> 
> Singlehandedly makes the biggest assumption I've heard of (bar prolly SL) about Gedo Mazo.


You mean stated things, sure, assumptions.



X III said:


> Also:
> Uses calcs on an inconsistent Manga and takes it over blatant Manga portrayal and hype.
> 
> Takes low end showings for Hashi/Mada and takes high ends for Nagato.


High ends? really? you want me to use high ends for nagato using earths curvature instead and make a CT like 7 times as large? Fuck off with that nonsense. I never used any low ends for Hashirama or Madara. And for Kyuubi the high end doesnt make sense cause it implies the mountains are 300+ kilometers tall. So no, i have never done that. ever.



X III said:


> "Preta Path" Madara and Hashirama both have counters for this shit.


Madara has no counter for preta other than preta itself, that implies his preta is better, and if FRS is a lot of energy for him to take i got bad news for you...

And Hashiramas counter only works if it touches you, preta is a field around you as well.



X III said:


> *He ACTUALLY thinks he can convince me, lmao.
> 
> This is coming from one of the most indifferent debaters on this section*: I swear that I have no biased for the founders over Nagato. I blatantly don't know how Nagato can win, going by what I've read. You can try to convince me. You'll fail.


This is the biggest contradiction I have ever seen on this board. Ever. And I have been here a long fuckin time.



Atlantic Storm said:


> How does Nagato deal with perfect Susano'o, Kurama, or the the combination of the two?


PS can do no damage to Preta. And the Mazo that has 7 Bijuu is plenty to handle Kyuubi. Phantom dragon fucks up PS. Rods stop the kyuubi after enough are slammed into him.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Are you SERIOUS? EVERY instance in which substitution has been used there are no movement lines where they should be, the number one evidence of movement. Movement lines on the character and in the background. Converging lines are not always used to convey movement but rather simply draw attention to the character in question, but they can be used to depict movement in my experience. I explained everything you need to know. I posted you the databook entry before, and it exists on these forums. Body Flicker supercharges the body and specifically the legs, it's something everyone learns at a basic level just from mastering tree rocking. Your mileage with the technique from there depends on how much chakra you flow through your body and how good your chakra control with the technique is. Body Flicker is used with a smokescreen sometimes and sometimes they leave behind leaves and other crap. Even in those instances, the laws of physics for high speed motion are still followed. It's a D rank technique, while Substitution is E rank. Two different techniques. Never a stated connection. Substitution allows restrained targets to escape. Zaku was PREDICTING where Sakura would pop up instead of trying to follow her movement. Very obviously teleportation, because that was the same thing Raikage attempted to do in order to counter FTG. Itachi has never physically moved when he has used subsitution. Neither did Gaara, Neither did Yamato, Neither did Naruto in the land of waves arc, neither did Kakashi, neither did Sakura, neither did Animal Pain, neither did Hashirama. They were all in mid-air, physically restrained, reappeared in mid-air, etc Itachi was literally being held by Nagato yet he left a shadow clone in his place and reappeared in mid air. It's blatantly obvious because they can sometimes summon logs or clones without any clones or logs previously visible in the enviornment to both the characters or to the reader. Itachi was grappling Hebi Sasuke yet he was able to leave a shadow clone in his place and then reappear in mid-air and rain down three kunai. Sasuke has sharingan and he couldn't see through the ruse despite standing literally inches away from Itachi AND holding him, and there was no indicators of a shadow clone being poofed into existence. Sasuke hit the wrong Itachi because he thought the one that was grappling him was the real one. Itachi left a shadow clone in his place then REAPPEARED behind Kakashi, which is why Kurenai called him superhuman, and that was without realizing that he didn't just merely spawn a clone without any smoke, he created a clone without any smoke and then left it in his place as he teleported behind Kakashi. I'm sick of you arguing against canon. Kakashi didn't notice it until it was too late, it's obvious based on his water clone's thought bubble and suprise as indicated by the "!!". Kakashi has weaker reflexes than EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto as well as I proved. Sasuke can track Juubito and Kabuto could physically react to arrows that nearly blitzed War arc MS Kakashi, so I don't want to see any dishonesty from you anymore on this matter. Even in part one, Sasuke says Kakashi used "speed and skill" to make a SWITCH and it's blatantly obvious that he teleported. Naruto was restraining him hardcore and yet Kakashi just vanished out of his grip and naruto barely moved except for the forces due to gravity, and a naruto clone took Kakashi's place, obvious teleportation. And Sasuke saying Speed doesn't mean anything because the characters and the mangaka in general do a bad job of distinguishing Body Flicker from actual teleportation in the first place, it's a miracle that nowadays most naruto fans have come to understand the difference.


So you want to ignore the mangas own explanation, got it.



ThirdRidoku said:


> LMAO are you serious bro? I know exactly what I am talking about. Akatsuki used to move as a group at one point in time, that's all that matters. And they only started moving in pairs in more recent years as Jiraiya clearly stated. What does that mean? Obito left everything in the hands of Nagato until Akatsuki members were dying left and right and Itachi was about to die. They all are familiar with each other abilities. Hidan even says he has the slowest attack speed out of everyone. They switched to traveling in pairs for a number of reasons. One, traveling as a group isn't really incognito. They are all known and wanted criminals and They have plenty of firepower but they are all prideful and rarely coordinate with each other. They generally all like soloing 1v1 while the other member watches. Moving as pairs is more efficient for searching and hunting across the countries and having two means betrayal is minimized and they have a backup option in case a jinchuriki battle gets out of hand. You don't get it. Itachi is a hero. If he really wanted to capture Naruto back in Part one, he brings Pain, period. No Tsunade at the time, so CST easily one shots the village at that point in time, right after Itachi picks naruto up at his hotel room. Good game. Itachi kept Obito in check, who was forced to make excuses to Nagato for why Nagato couldn't get vengeance on Konoha like he always wanted. That vengeance came AFTER Itachi died. Itachi and Kisame were sent instead and Obito allowed it obviously because he knew what Itachi's game was the whole time. What Itachi didn't know was that Obito saw through him. Itachi helped him slaugther the clan and Itachi acted like he was doing it out of spite, but Obito knew it was an act because he consulted with Danzo. Itachi told Obito that Konoha was off-limits and that agreement was the condition on which he would help the Akatsuki in all it's other goals, but he didn't think Obito knew his true intentions, which is why he is surprised when KCM naruto explains that to him. and Itachi made even better excuses for why Kisame and himself came back empty handed, stalling for time successfully, allowing naruto to become stronger and for Konoha to become more wary of Akatsuki's threat, reminding the elders of their agreement. Once Itachi was ready to die, everything was set into place and Itachi achieved everything he wanted to before dying for his brother's sake. Kotoamatsukami would have one shot Sasuke and or Obito had either of them decided to take his eyes after death and come after Konoha. so yeah, bringing up Jiraiya is just dishonest, because in the official translation Itachi essentially said Itachi+kisame+ Akatsuki would at best stalemate Jiraiya ROFL. Totally wasn't wanking Jiraiya bro to protect him from Kisame, who clearly thought Jiraiya was some god tier shinobi just because he was called one of the legendary three ninja.


So you want to ignore the mangas own explanation, got it.

The akatsuki traveled as a group when Yahiko was the leader. thats it. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL bro talk about funny. The Town level calc I did was a for a SMALL SECTION of the valley, and even THEN it was a low end feat in many ways, which you completely ignored rofl, no surprise. Don't lie to me bro. Hashirama was stated to carve up the landscape even better than Madara can, and Madara split two mountains, lifted them up, and smashed his own meteor remains with a casual slash designed to break the morale of the 5 Kage and nothing more. Slash those blades with more intent and say do it 4 times in quick succession, and he is easily Large Island level/ Country level alone based on some calcs I have seen, with the absolute low end being mountain level for his casual slash. Even as an Edo with six paths chakra and hashirama cells, the Edo Tensei nerf still made him weaker than his alive VOTE self according to hashirama, because hashirama stated he REGAINED his PREVIOUS strength again after being revived. Edo tensei still brought people back SHORT of their maximum potential despite Kabuto's improvements bruh, and six paths chakra/ hashi cells didn't make up the difference for Madara. Even Tobirama was slower due to Edo Tensei nerf. So his country level feat of bansho-teniniing giant meteors is a scale of power that still scales with EMS Madara, even if EMS Madara technically can't use that exact technique due to not having a rinnegan. Furthermore, we know that Hashi is country level for the simple fact that the valley became the BORDER between the land of fire and the land of sound. Look up the naruto maps bro. The Actual valley length is easily on the order of kilometers long, I just don't know how much to give a precise calc. But it doesn't matter, and still you ignore the amount of joules per CUBIC CM needed to bust perfect susano'o rofl. That easily in itself requires mountain plus joules of energy just to even chip off a square inch bro. You ignored all the other statements that put Nagato below Hashirama in power too, which is just great man.


Bro, you realize it would have to be hundreds of kilometers long to equal CST right? You are telling me that 55 teratons or hundreds of Gigatons is weaker than 300 kiliotons? get real. You are fuckin delusional here. Please, just say it. say it clearly so the whole board knows. say 300 kilotons is greater than hundreds of Gigatons.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Madara also clearly used Shinra Tensei twice too rofl. We know he used Shinra Tensei to escape the 5 Kage trap for the simple reason that Susano'o always starts by forming AROUND the user like a cylinder to form the rib cage, as we clearly saw in Sasuke's usage. Raikage's hands were still holding him and were still inside Sasuke's Susano'o even after he landed the liger bomb. When Madara escapes the 5 Kage trap, no signs of susano'o chakra around the sand and all we see is Gaara's sand being blown away. Then In the NEXT Panel, Madara starts forming Susano'o because he was hyped that the 5 kage were worthy opponents. He also more than likely used it to blow apart the deity gates after Black Zetsu revived him with rinnebirth. Bro, you gotta stop being dishonest seriously. All the manga facts show that Madara can use all the techniques. He said so himself. Konan said so. You are in denial. He can use Chibaku Tensei and Bansho Tenin but he can't use Shinra tensei despite seeing him do so and the fact he clearly has DEVA PATH???? What kind of logic is that, all because you don't want Nagato to lose ? smh.


The logic is, just because he uses one feature of an attack doesnt mean he can use all features. Prove he used ST. show me the cold hard facts.


ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL bro. You do realize that Hashirama's Chojo kebutsu carved out a large valley with the EXPLOSION of those same hands colliding right? If they all pile up on Nagato's barrier then the shockwaves alone would obliterate Nagato. We gotta talk about PHYSICS bro.


There wouldnt be a shockwave that reached him. The attacks stop on impact of his barrier anyway.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I only know how to multiquote the long way, is there an easier way to do it? I apologize and definitely will try to do so on my next post, it's partially laziness plus time consuming is the issue when I have to type out a large response.


You have to highlight the text you want to respond to, then click the "+quote" button that appears. You do that to all the shit you want to reply to then at the box below you click "insert quotes".


----------



## X III (Mar 6, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> That is the single most ass backwards debate logic i have ever heard in my entirety of debating.
> It was in an explosion, YOU have to prove it was withdrawn.


Not if it's literally STATED they're on par with each other AND if it's been withdrawn on panel before.



kokodeshide said:


> a 6 path arm ten times weaker than him


And it's still >>> Nagato. Moot point.



kokodeshide said:


> Fuck off with this nonsense. Prove he was hurt or shut the fuck up.


If he's yelling, then he's fucking hurt. I don't know why I need to spoonfeed this shit to you. But of course you have a hard on for Nagato, so you will mistinerpret EVERYTHING as long as it fits your views.



kokodeshide said:


> cause he got sealed right after being picked up.


And he wasn't able to escape before he got suppressed.



kokodeshide said:


> FRS legitimately stunned him and ruffled his fur.


So it hurt him. If you get a burn then you fucking got hurt, dude..



kokodeshide said:


> show me.


 SS and Mokujin there.

Later.. Literally NO WHERE in sight.



kokodeshide said:


> They ARE chakra beasts you fuck.


So you're telling me physical Kurama is his Chakra Avatar? Lol

Don't need an eye to see the obvious difference in appearance or anything. 



kokodeshide said:


> Fuck off, put 2 and 2 together.


I'll fuck off once you concede on this point lol



kokodeshide said:


> Cool, what is a bunch of weak punches going to do to him?


Kill him lol.

It tore off Susan'o.

Not like that's the oNLY option either. Gracious Deity Gates to immobilize and poison him with his flowers. 



kokodeshide said:


> Or completely disregard the fact that Kyuubi was fine after taking far stronger hits.


Completely disregard the fact we literally JUST WENT OVER how different types of damages exist. You never cease to exist me with your blatant denial lol.



kokodeshide said:


> Ha, no. Bee saves Naruto several times.


This logic makes no sense.. 

Are you telling me that Tobirama > young Hiruzen because he became a sacrifice? lol



kokodeshide said:


> So they arent close.


Because we literally saw one OUTLCASS the other. Completely different from Kurama and PS who literally had EQUAL SHINE in the battles against Juubito, Momoshiki, and Hashi. 



kokodeshide said:


> ok? they still fought as equals. so they werent actually equal at all.


They were close. Had equal shine in the battle against Juubito. Not true equals, nor am I necessarily stressing PS is COMPLETELY equal with Kurama. One is more defense oriented while one is offense oriented, as I said. 

Naruto was stronger there since he had a stronger avatar and greater boost, but they both performed well which is the point.

You seriously think Kishimoto would draw Naruto oneshotting Sasuke during the Juubito fight? That just seems ridiculous.



kokodeshide said:


> HAHAHA. Bullshit, why did sasuke need the 9 bijuu then?


I literally said Ashura Mode Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. Read it again.


X III said:


> _RSM Naruto with his Ashura Avatar_. *Without that, they're near even,* as shown flat out..


Ashura Mode Naruto is what required Sasuke 9 Bijuu.

Sasuke literally shat on Naruto with his Jubi Susano'o prior to Ashura Kurama came out. And they were fighting nearly on par with each other before that.



kokodeshide said:


> Except Hiruzen bum rushed Oro and beat him in a single fuckin exchange


Panel? 



kokodeshide said:


> Not at all. Mei was FAR weaker


She was still Kage level lol. Others were close. NONE of them would oneshot the other or stomp. All of them would be mid or high diff battles.



kokodeshide said:


> was one not far stronger than the other?


In Part 1, we literally saw Sasuke outperform the other two. 

In Shippuden, Naruto and Sakura contributed evenly.



kokodeshide said:


> Similar feats? show me.


PS cutting off a bunch of mountain tops just with shockwaves. *Not claiming it's Kurama level offense*. Just pointing it out there.

And V4 Susano'o tanked a Kurama TBB. Fought on par with a Senjutsu Mokujin which is = Kurama according to statements. 



kokodeshide said:


> In this case it is.


For the TBB, yes, but not for the Susano'o. Unless you wanna tell me Sasuke's Juubi Susano'o is on par with his pS.



kokodeshide said:


> You have shown me nothing to indicate this


Apparently Katsuyu >> Madara's PS in addition to Hashirama's Mokuton + Byakuguo levels of regen, guys.



kokodeshide said:


> Center of the attack and edge are MUCH different, my friend.


Which I flat out acknowledged in my post.



kokodeshide said:


> The difference is, CST doesnt stop once the defense breaks.


Bu the attack is gradual.



kokodeshide said:


> Oro still disintegrated. The punch also must not hhave contacted him fro long enough. or its inconsistent.


O 



kokodeshide said:


> After how fucking long? Oro took a second, she took like several minutes.


Cool, but you said Katsuyu survived no problem. I referred specifically to that. Not comparing her to Oro.



kokodeshide said:


> You'd have to explain why Madara lost control of his mokuton, was not shown again for a long time and was out of Susano. Otherwise, it was destroyed


He literally dropped out of the fight. He was completely fine in the other problem. And it'd be ridiculous to claim an Edo can't jump back in the battle lol.

You'd also have to explain  how Kisame's durabilty > V3 Susano'o makes ANY sense whatsoever.



kokodeshide said:


> Damage CST? How?


Bad wording on my attack. It's pretty much just at the very least cancelling out parts of the attack with their own attack. It'll help their chances at survival.



kokodeshide said:


> Nope, It shows the stages unraveling. one layer under the other


And it's adding material onto it.



kokodeshide said:


> You dont see that chakra divides among 14 limbs is weaker than chakra divided among 4?


Not if that Chakra is far greater in potency.



kokodeshide said:


> Lol, undamaged by any fight he was in. despite Asuma cutting up other weapons, his scythe was ok.


His scythe's still fodder compared to a PS sword. 



kokodeshide said:


> FRS is not the same kind of attack. Piercing>>>Cutting


Fair enough then.



kokodeshide said:


> Explosions in water are crazy powerful. And thats a feat for deidara. Also, junchuriki are stronger than bijuu, deidara mentions this, i assume that applies to nearly every aspect.


I know x2

But Deidara's C1 still isn't > Juubidama in water.

Nor is a Jinchuriki going to make a gigantic difference, especially when the rasoning given for Jins being > is them having more control over the Bijuu's power. Durability shouldn't magically increase.



kokodeshide said:


> 4 on 1 lol. Obito couldn't win the 4 on 1 nor the 2 on 1 and madara lost a 3 on one to the same guys. what is your point?


He didn't lose shit, and you completely went away from the original argument.

Whenever you lose a opint, instead of conceding, you go onto another point.



kokodeshide said:


> Because the Juubi is MASSIVE, and the flame barrier is tiny lol wtf?


Just like Gamabunta and that ravine he was thrown in lol.

Juubi literally could've broken the barrier it was in.



kokodeshide said:


> Just like Gamabunta and that ravine he was thrown in lol.
> Just like Gamabunta and that ravine he was thrown in lol.
> This is common Knowledge man, He uses the rods to transmit and receive chakra signals


Yeah, the rods he put on the Pain bodies. I'm talking about the rods on his back..



kokodeshide said:


> Thats a perspective trick, bud. You could make the moon look as big as a mountain. Kishimoto loves wonky perspective shots.


Or he's just inconsistent.



kokodeshide said:


> You do realize this is the single most fucking retarded argument on earth? You do realize that calcs arent even needed. Simple comparison works just fuckin fine. Unless you thin the Valley of the end is as big as konoha, you'd be fuckin retarded to imply CST was weaker than SS or PS.


I'm not saying it's stronger dude. I'm saying that, if Katsuyu can survive an explosion, then most likely fucking Hashirama and Madara can do the same thing. It's simple scaling. Not rocket science.



kokodeshide said:


> KN6 Is certainly portrayed above SM in all aspects but sensing. and SM naruto was beating on Kurama. Take that how you want.


KN6 has no lifting feats, and SM is glorified for pure strength.

This is literally you right now:
"FRS didn't hurt Kurama."
"But SM Naruto was beating on Kurama."

That's a blatant contradiction lol



kokodeshide said:


> No, Wrong. Bee can use all 8 of his tails in V2. Best part is, the 9 was shown on Yamatos hand before Naruto even undid the seal. Naruto still Had 2 fuckin steps to undo the seal yet the 9 was appearing.


Because Naruto was about to rip the seal off. Minato says two seconds after he appeared when it reached the 8th tail.

Bee's a Perfect Jin.



kokodeshide said:


> They are on the other fuckin side of the village wtf are you talking about? Do you not understand perspective at all?


 



kokodeshide said:


> lol, you literally have no point here yet you still try and back it.


Because I fucking agree Nagato was in a weakened state. Doesn't stop the fact he used CT at its max capacity up until he fainted.



kokodeshide said:


> They are for 2 separate fuckin points, bro.


Doesn't stop the blatant contradiction from going one is impressive o saying it isn't impressive 2 secds afterwards.



kokodeshide said:


> Ok? Was that division stronger than Konoha? Fuck no. Was that madara stronger than VotE madara? Fuck no.


Lol that division had a shit ton of fodder + Naruto's KB + 2 Kage. It's not far off from Konoha. And the fact Madara shat on it with Taijutsu, a weak Susano'o, and 2 meteors..



kokodeshide said:


> And you think pain was paying attention to everyone in konoha at once? What a horrible point.
> 
> Madara was fighting them for a while, THEN used mokuton,then Gai put his ass down. Madara didnt stop fighting, he was trying to accomplish his goal. He was beaten in that moment.


You think he HAS to pay attention to fodder? Lol. Madara wasn't paying attention to actual people. 

No, he fucking wasn't. You see him  fine 2 secs afterwards.
On top of that he literally CAN'T fucking lose unles he's sealed because he's Edo Tensei. 

Madara no longer needed Kuramaa nd Gyuki. Juubi was already being revived.



kokodeshide said:


> Madara never used PS. Nagato never used the Mazo or CST.
> A far stronger version of Naruto? Not in a way that matters, *he negged the BM with Mokuton anyway.*
> Manga only ever flat out states that Nagato was the strongest actually. They never ever say Obito is stronger, in fact they basically show that he isnt. Cant use rinne tensei without dying, even with the massive life force of the Mazo in him he STILL isnt comparable to Nagato. He cant use both rinnegan while Nagato could. He couldnt use any path but outer path. He struggled with INSANE BACK UP against 2 people Nagato JUST finished THRASHING. What more could tell you Nagato is stronger. Seriously. They fought the same people. Nagato solo'd and Obito failed with 6 Edo Jinchuriki, the Mazo, and then later Madaras help.


As if CST would make a fucking difference. He used his STRONGEST attack, bro. He was defeated. Fair and square. Mazo flat out can't be used as ET. Not that it' dmake a difference since Nagato can't control it.

You literally ACKNOWLEDGE @bold that Madara negged BM lol. 

Nagato not dying from RT is only iMPLIED by Konan, who's NEVER SEEN THE JUTSU and has LIMITED KNOWLEGE on the Rinnegan. And even IF Nagato could use RT, that ONLY refers to his broken lifeforce, not his fucking strength. Legit the same shit as me saying Obito's > Nagato since his Outer Path is greater, or Sasuke's > Itachi because his Enton is greater.

Obito's flat out stated multiple times to be able to use other Paths of the Rinnegna. Even has on panel feats of using a couple.

Obito literally shat on KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee while TOYING WITH THEM and barely using the Bijuu. It as only when Naruto used BM that he could overpower the Bijuu. Note: BM Naruto SHITS on Nagato. 

After the Bijuu were dealt with, Obito fought against the team and ltierally NONE OF THEM could land hits on them until Kamui was used. Kamui, one of the ONLY COUNTERS to Obito's Kamui, was the oNLY way they could hit him. And even then, the MOST they did was tear off his fucking mask and cause MINIMAL damage to his sleeves. 

Obito and Madara, literally called t. 



kokodeshide said:


> Bro, you wanna talk about desperate, You are literally falling back on the single worst argument ever, basically that some people, who dont know who the fuck Nagato is, called hashirama a god of shinobi.


This is such a fucking trash argument. Hashirama was called the God of Shinobi BECAUSE of how fucking strong he is. People know who he is BECAUSE of his strength lmao.

Nagato isn't known after the war to be some fucking top dog Shinobi who can shit on anybody who isn't God Tier. Guess who was jerked off by everyone? Hashirama. Guess who was compared to Hagoromo? Hashirama. Guess whose powers were so fucking powerful they were referred to as a myth? Hashirama. Guess who was stated to be stronger than Madara while the other was a brat? Hashirama.



kokodeshide said:


> Bullshit, this is easily proven wrong.
> Edo madara, in a weaker edo tensei, essentially stalemated virtually full power Hashirama. Hashi was tagged by the rods and Madara was caught by the dragon. Neither won the fight. If anything, Madara was the only one uninjured so he was more the winner in my eyes.
> VotE madara with kyuubi was outright beaten by hashirama. So, no, you are wrong. very wrong.


Let's just completely ignore the fact that Hashirama, who fought both versions, called alive Madara physically stronger.

Let's also ignore the fact Hashirama also wasn't at full power, because BOTH were handicapped by ET.



kokodeshide said:


> Because revealing Madara was bad for obito. And it is said on the color panel of Itachi and Nagato side by side.


Kabuto doesn't give a shit what Obito thinks. That's why he wanted to defy him and steal Naruto and Bee underneath his nose.

Guess who are stated to be the strongest AFTER the Itachi and Nagato battle? Madara & Obito.



kokodeshide said:


> Nooooo. Obito issues the order to capture Naruto, only after itachi dies does he have Pain go to Konoha.


This makes literally no sense. Pain counters as Obito's firepower. If you actually believe the deal to be some genuine proof that Itachi > Obito or some shit, you'd flat out have to acknowledge Itachi > Obito, Pain, Akatsuki, 8 Bijuu, and Gedo Mazo (your fave). 



kokodeshide said:


> So you have no point. got it.


Stronger? Check, BM stomps KCM.

Plot? Check, Madara never used PS or foughts eriously.

Backup? Check, had Kakashi/Guy and eventually the entire SA. Madara also fought against BM Bee who Nagato never fought.



kokodeshide said:


> Ha, people TODAY believe this so no. And even then, the point stands because i was REFERRING to a long time ago.


Yeah, FAR fucking less people.

The Manga is OVER now, and EVERYBODY concurs Founders cuck Nagato. Use your brain, bro. You aren't right.



kokodeshide said:


> Not biased. ok. When you say that You can never be convinced then call me biased that is fuckin comical.


I can't be convinced because I'm 100% sure you're wrong and I'm right. It has nothing to do with my bias for Hashi/Madara. It's my own confidence on my stance. PERHAPS you CAN convince me, but I think there's nO Way.



kokodeshide said:


> Bee was not in a weaker form what are you talking about? Naruto while moderately weaker, was not weaker in a way that changed either fight.


KCM is not moderately weaker dude, smh. BM defeated 5 Bijuu. KCM struggled with one. 

BM Bee >> V2.



kokodeshide said:


> Pain isn't, no way. I never said that. But yet you think i believe that, how funny. Could it be you are assuming false shit to convince yourself that i am wrong?


You literally have him listed as your favorite character.

Although it's not that fucking hard to figure out with you saying shit like Nagato = Alive Rinnegan fucking SM Madara.



kokodeshide said:


> Except you consistently misrepresent everything about the founders vs nagato.


No I don't. That's literally what you do. That's how you reach the conclusion Nagato is Rinegan SM Madara level lmao. 



kokodeshide said:


> Huh? How is it an outlier? FRS is strong as fuck. Pain gets turned to paste by it yet survives a TBB.


It's an outlier because it never does anything remotely similar ever again.



kokodeshide said:


> He died after a baby boy kamui. ST is what did the damage to put him in that state in the first place. You telling me that by the end of their fight Kakashi was 1 Kamui away from death?


Two Kamuis.

And dude, Kakashi isn't a fucking Uchiha. MS takes a shit tone out of the user.. Kamui is LITERALLY what drained him out the last moment. Surprised I even have to contest such bullshit, even coming from you.



kokodeshide said:


> Oh wait, i never said any of that, wow!


Certanily are implying it by mentioning SM Naruto being durable even though we're talking about Founders vs ST right now.



kokodeshide said:


> Never said that either, interesting here, I am beginning to sense a trend.


"FRS is Madara Susao'o slash level"
Canon: Madara beats the Gokage with such technique

"But no tho! i'm not saying pain arc naruto is gokage level!!!"



kokodeshide said:


> Sasuke was not his equal in any way at that point. If naruto went to the FKS with the same amount of prep he had for pain, he would have absolutely slaughtered the 5 kage.


Yeha, no.



kokodeshide said:


> It wasn't a counter as it never worked. And naruto wasnt weakened, he was still able to make hundreds of clones.


Pain flat out acknowledges it as a counter lmao.

He was still weakened. He just went through a battle against Pain and went to KN.



kokodeshide said:


> Look at the legs, not the rhino lololol. Biology fail.
> Thats a durability feat for pain, bruh. You see how this works for you?
> PS tanks TBB. Madaras susano is strong.
> Pain tanks a Sage kick. Must be weak.
> Fuckin biased as all hell.


Whether it's a rhino or not doesn't matter lol. It's not a biology class.

I never fucking said Pain's durability is weak. I said boss toads likely have weaker durability because of this. 



kokodeshide said:


> No, like i said, Madara at full prime, both Rinnegan, Slaughters Hashirama. Limbo murders him. And he already basically did beat him as i just said.


We have no way to dell which version of Madara would be counted as "The Second Rikudou." Although Obito implies he was at that level, and even EMS Madara is above him lol.



kokodeshide said:


> Everyone is fodder to the first one.


Then why did you even mention him? 



kokodeshide said:


> More like he stalemated for that moment but even with a giant FRS and another sealing jutsu he still wasn't defeated.


That's what I said. Drew means stalemate.



kokodeshide said:


> And? Who gives a flying fuck, this is the fuckin worst argument that people always use. it literally just means he cant use Limbo, that's it.


No lol. It literally means his use is worse, just like Kakashi being worse at the MS than Madara. 

Not like the Manga flat out fucking acknowledges that original wielders and all has a shit tone to do with the overall power of the Rinnegan or not. 



kokodeshide said:


> Read the fuckin manga if you think this is head canon, this is all explained.


No it isn't lol.

It's head canon. Flat out. 

Madara and Nagato both used the Gedo Mazo with no Bijuu to fuel it. If one of them could control it easy while the other had to be impaled to the back, that means the other had worse control. Common sense. Stop making shit upt o support Nagato.



kokodeshide said:


> This makes no fucking sense. Konan has no knowledge of any other rinnegan user. Nagato is also an uzumaki with uchiha eyes. Madara and obito are uchiha with bits of DNA. They dont have the uzumaki life force.


Nor does she have any fucking knowledge on how RT works. Nice contradiction.

Half of Obito's body is made of Senju DNA. Madara has a giant face of Hashirama on his chest. "Bits of DNA" YEAH RIGHT.



kokodeshide said:


> High ends? really? you want me to use high ends for nagato using earths curvature instead and make a CT like 7 times as large? Fuck off with that nonsense. I never used any low ends for Hashirama or Madara. And for Kyuubi the high end doesnt make sense cause it implies the mountains are 300+ kilometers tall. So no, i have never done that. ever.


"Hashi died to fodder tho"
"Hash made a hole on the ground. What's so impressive"

This is blatant downplay.

Yes, if you take a single fucking FRS feat which FRS NEVER accomplishes again and use it as some defintive proof that Nagato shits on Hashi/Madara, then yes you're wanking.



kokodeshide said:


> Madara has no counter for preta other than preta itself, that implies his preta is better, and if FRS is a lot of energy for him to take i got bad news for you...
> 
> And Hashiramas counter only works if it touches you, preta is a field around you as well.


Shockwave bypasses Preta.

Hashi has Mokujin and Senjutsu.



kokodeshide said:


> This is the biggest contradiction I have ever seen on this board. Ever. And I have been here a long fuckin time.


Already explained it well enough.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 7, 2019)

X III said:


> Not if it's literally STATED they're on par with each other AND if it's been withdrawn on panel before.


You have no idea how the rules of debate work then. He has never ever been shown to do anything of the sort during an attack while using another jutsu. You are making the far fetched claim that he withdrew the Mokujin during the attack. You need to prove it.



X III said:


> And it's still >>> Nagato. Moot point.


Bullshit. he was able to do it before he got extra chakra back too. you telling me a near dead obito without any life force left could do more damage than a full powered Nagato Asura arms that are capable of ripping limbs off sage mode users? Or the fact that Nagato has various other methods of killing?



X III said:


> If he's yelling, then he's fucking hurt. I don't know why I need to spoonfeed this shit to you. But of course you have a hard on for Nagato, so you will mistinerpret EVERYTHING as long as it fits your views.


Bro, this is so fuckin stupid, you have to stop. He roars ALLL THE TIME. When did you become the kyuubi whisperer. Please interpret all the roars in the manga for me.



X III said:


> And he wasn't able to escape before he got suppressed.


Ok, and? that means he is hurt? Naruto couldnt escape Preta before he got his chakra sucked, is preta path SM level now?



X III said:


> So it hurt him. If you get a burn then you fucking got hurt, dude..


he didnt get burned, his fur got scuffed.



X III said:


> SS and Mokujin there.
> 
> Later.. Literally NO WHERE in sight.


 
Bro, you see only the TINIEST bit of the sky and you say it was withdrawn? hahahahahahahahaha



X III said:


> So you're telling me physical Kurama is his Chakra Avatar? Lol
> 
> Don't need an eye to see the obvious difference in appearance or anything.


They are solid manifestations of chakra. But they are still just chakra. Thats why they get absorbed by the mazo via the phantom dragons and then dissappear, unlike the people hit by the phantom dragons.


X III said:


> Kill him lol.
> 
> It tore off Susan'o.
> 
> Not like that's the oNLY option either. Gracious Deity Gates to immobilize and poison him with his flowers.


What? SS can do what the Juubi could not? Wtf are you talking about. Poison him with his flowers? you mean put him to sleep? Ok? And?



X III said:


> Completely disregard the fact we literally JUST WENT OVER how different types of damages exist. You never cease to exist me with your blatant denial lol.


what denial? when you say shit like this and i consistently prove you wrong what is it you think, please, tell me.



X III said:


> This logic makes no sense..
> 
> Are you telling me that Tobirama > young Hiruzen because he became a sacrifice? lol


HAHAHA, because saving naruto who was incapable of saving himself means the same thing right? False equivalence.


X III said:


> Because we literally saw one OUTLCASS the other. Completely different from Kurama and PS who literally had EQUAL SHINE in the battles against Juubito, Momoshiki, and Hashi.


Dude, PS was used as a suit. Since when was the samurai weaker than his armor? Why did sasukes susano need amps to fight along side naruto?

and against hashi it was blown away but kyuubi takes way greater hits.



X III said:


> They were close. Had equal shine in the battle against Juubito. Not true equals, nor am I necessarily stressing PS is COMPLETELY equal with Kurama. One is more defense oriented while one is offense oriented, as I said.


Except Kyuubi has better Offense AND Defense feats than PS.



X III said:


> Naruto was stronger there since he had a stronger avatar and greater boost, but they both performed well which is the point.
> 
> You seriously think Kishimoto would draw Naruto oneshotting Sasuke during the Juubito fight? That just seems ridiculous.


Sasuke was literally marveling at Naruto's power 2 second before that point so yes, Kishimoto flat out told us that sasuke was the weaker ninja.


X III said:


> I literally said Ashura Mode Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. Read it again.


Then why are you bringing it up. Sasuke needed outside help to equal naruto who was gathering his sage energy.



X III said:


> Ashura Mode Naruto is what required Sasuke 9 Bijuu.
> 
> Sasuke literally shat on Naruto with his Jubi Susano'o prior to Ashura Kurama came out. And they were fighting nearly on par with each other before that.


nearly on par minus the fact that Naruto didnt want to kill sasuke..



X III said:


> Panel?


Link removed
Link removed
Literally 2 paged him. But for plot purposes, didn't kill him, just grabbed him for the RDS. 


X III said:


> She was still Kage level lol. Others were close. NONE of them would oneshot the other or stomp. All of them would be mid or high diff battles.


A4 would one shot Mei. She is garbage compared to him. Oonoki just about oneshots mei. Gaara in the desert one shots mei, out of the dester maybe 4 shots mei. Tsunade briefly struggles against mei, but Byakugo rapes.



X III said:


> In Part 1, we literally saw Sasuke outperform the other two.
> 
> In Shippuden, Naruto and Sakura contributed evenly.


So my point stands? Sasuke and naruto fought together, yet he was far above him at the time.

And in shippuden Naruto and Sai are called the top of Konohas growing generation, Sakura isnt in the discussion.


X III said:


> PS cutting off a bunch of mountain tops just with shockwaves. *Not claiming it's Kurama level offense*. Just pointing it out there.
> 
> And V4 Susano'o tanked a Kurama TBB. Fought on par with a Senjutsu Mokujin which is = Kurama according to statements.


That feat is literally so fuckin insignificant its hurts your cause to bring it up. A TBB is MAGNITUDES higher in power.

The susano tanked a weak TBB that just about any TB could survive, assuming they are roughly the same durability as Gyuuki.

And you repeat the X is = To kurama BS without even asking WHY is it equal. It never says equal in power or defense. But it does SHOW it wins via sealing.


X III said:


> For the TBB, yes, but not for the Susano'o. Unless you wanna tell me Sasuke's Juubi Susano'o is on par with his pS.


Bruh, you are missing the overall point to debate semantics. The point is, even if PS was 5000 times stronger than V4 susano, it still PALES in comparison to the difference between a TBB and a massive charged TBB


X III said:


> Apparently Katsuyu >> Madara's PS in addition to Hashirama's Mokuton + Byakuguo levels of regen, guys.


If it is shown, why is that a problem, because it doesnt fit your narrative?



X III said:


> Which I flat out acknowledged in my post.


Then for somereason you bring up when it doesnt help your case.



X III said:


> Bu the attack is gradual.


And? In reality, all attacks vary in speed of energy transfer.


X III said:


> O


lol. First off, the lesser point, the anime shows him be destroyed.
Now , for the real point. Why the fuck does oro need to use Oral rebirth then? Also, where is his body afterward, oh wait, he withdrew it, right?


X III said:


> Cool, but you said Katsuyu survived no problem. I referred specifically to that. Not comparing her to Oro.


When other people die on contant, yes, she dealt with it no problem. If something took amaterasu burning it for 10 minutes when Pains FRS tanking dog took moments to burn away i would say the same thing. Obviously it will end in death, but when nothing else survives more than instant contact, its fair to say she took the cloack with no problem. and this was a tiny fraction of her.


X III said:


> He literally dropped out of the fight. He was completely fine in the other problem. And it'd be ridiculous to claim an Edo can't jump back in the battle lol.


You are assuming he dropped out so that you can say he didn get beat, you realize this, right? This is proof positive of bias. He literally says he wont hold back anymore then he just decides to stop fighting? Explain why that makes any sense.



X III said:


> You'd also have to explain how Kisame's durabilty > V3 Susano'o makes ANY sense whatsoever.


No I don't. It is a fiction, Kisame could take a meteor on him and not die and i dont have to explain shit, but guess what, it means he is more durable than those who failed to take the same attack.



X III said:


> Bad wording on my attack. It's pretty much just at the very least cancelling out parts of the attack with their own attack. It'll help their chances at survival.


Cancel out parts of the attack? it doesnt work that way. You dont cancel out parts, you either overpower it entirely or you dont. And they dont have the power to do that.



X III said:


> And it's adding material onto it.


Like i fuckin said.


X III said:


> Not if that Chakra is far greater in potency.


 Thats up to you to prove. Cause the feats show otherwise.



X III said:


> His scythe's still fodder compared to a PS sword.


Ok? I dont deny that at all.



X III said:


> I know x2
> 
> But Deidara's C1 still isn't > Juubidama in water.
> 
> Nor is a Jinchuriki going to make a gigantic difference, especially when the rasoning given for Jins being > is them having more control over the Bijuu's power. Durability shouldn't magically increase.


Then explain why Isobu could tank Kyuubis roar and hits which are above a C1 deidaras attacks while it was in a jinchuriki.



X III said:


> He didn't lose shit, and you completely went away from the original argument.
> 
> Whenever you lose a opint, instead of conceding, you go onto another point.


Prove I ever lost a point and failed to concede. Do that and i will concede this entire argument. I dont fuckin work like that. If you are right, you are right idc.

And yes, Madara did lose, he wanted to capture them before the juubi awoke, then failed to do so so he lost.


X III said:


> Juubi literally could've broken the barrier it was in.


Oh my god, dude, fit you arm in a fuckin coke can please. If the juubi was in the barrier, he would be crushed down to a fraction of his real size, are you implying that?



X III said:


> Yeah, the rods he put on the Pain bodies. I'm talking about the rods on his back..


And it shows RIGHT THERE, that the rods on his back are directly related to that.



X III said:


> Or he's just inconsistent.


Or kishimoto loves perspective art, something he is insanely good at, one of the best infact at fish lense manga art.


X III said:


> I'm not saying it's stronger dude. I'm saying that, if Katsuyu can survive an explosion, then most likely fucking Hashirama and Madara can do the same thing. It's simple scaling. Not rocket science.


scaling based on what? what durability feats do you have for Hashirama to put them on the same level as katsuyu? SM Hashiboob amped Madara lost his arm from some tail slaps even though he was in a V2 susano. Katsuyu isn't harmed by that at all. You severely downplay Katsuyus durability here. The only thing in the entire manga to hurt her was the Shinju.  

Lets also not forget that Tsunade put her ENTIRE seal into Katsuyu to protect the villagers. So it wasnt just Katsuyu. Tsunade after a whole day of fighting madara using byakugo didnt lose her seal. But with this 1 attack she did.



X III said:


> KN6 has no lifting feats, and SM is glorified for pure strength.


He has the feat of redirecting Pain shinra tensei, that requires power to launch the 3 boss toads.



X III said:


> This is literally you right now:
> "FRS didn't hurt Kurama."
> "But SM Naruto was beating on Kurama."
> 
> That's a blatant contradiction lol


No it isn't. FRS didnt hurt Kurama, it stunned him.
And yes, SM naruto was beating on Kurama. So both are valid points.

This is you right now.
"SS didn't hurt Madara"
"SM Hashirama beat on madara"
HURRDURR CONTRADICTION.

No, both are valid fuckin points.


X III said:


> Because Naruto was about to rip the seal off. Minato says two seconds after he appeared when it reached the 8th tail.
> 
> Bee's a Perfect Jin.


But we know that the paper seal is simply a place holder for the real seal. The door only opens with the key. or, narutos complete surrender to the kyuubi. but guess what, KN9 was already there. How could KN9 show up BEFORE the seal comes off if what you say is true? Here is the answer, it cant



X III said:


>


Im going to delete my original response to this because it was insanely rude. But still you have got to be the biggest fuckin moron on the face of planet earth if you believe what you just fuck said.

Did pain land only meters infront of the hokage monument here?
Link removed
No, no he didnt, He is kilometers away from it. how do i know? fuckin common sense first off. second, the explosion
Link removed
Is no where near the hokage monument. And we know pain is at the edge of the inner rim.

The rubble, which sakura and co are in, ONLY exists at the EDGES OF KONOHA AND UNDER THE HOKAGE MOUNTAIN. Just using basic fucking logic you know they are at the front of the hokage mountain. Why? They are lower than the top rim and we know that rubble under the hokage mountain is lower based on this.
Link removed
 What you are saying here is such a bad interpretation of the facts i question your ability to judge ANYTHING. Seriously, please tell me this was just one stupid opinion.



X III said:


> Because I fucking agree Nagato was in a weakened state. Doesn't stop the fact he used CT at its max capacity up until he fainted.


Uhhh, no, because he says it wasnt his biggest.



X III said:


> Doesn't stop the blatant contradiction from going one is impressive o saying it isn't impressive 2 secds afterwards.


Already squashed this point.


X III said:


> Lol that division had a shit ton of fodder + Naruto's KB + 2 Kage. It's not far off from Konoha. And the fact Madara shat on it with Taijutsu, a weak Susano'o, and 2 meteors..


It is VERY far from konoha. and he beat a handful of ninja with taijutsu. He doesnt have to face the entire Akimichi clan or Aburame clan or Hyuuga clan. Madara gets fuckin wrecked in konoha. Hiashi alone is enough to cause serious interference with his PS. He knocked away a Juubi tail swipe with it. Aburames drain his PS with little effort. Konoha is a fuckin force. You are severely underestimating the ability of Konoha. just a scattered group of Konoha ninjascrambled together quickly pushed the full Kyuuubi from Konoha, with ZERO uchiha support I will add, and you think Madaras PS who you say is equal to Kyuubi will beat konoha? Are you fuckin serious? That alone wrecks your whole argument.

Because the village wasn't using the Uchiha clan that day, we can compare the 2 villages. Tsunade, who Jiraiya said was unbeatable in the same conversation as him saying Minato had potential to be the best, but died young. We also have MS kakashi. Gai was gone, Asuma was dead. but every other clan was there. so same clans, but likely better clans now as Shikaku and Choza are the heads of their clans, Hiashi is closer to his prime, Minus Minato and Hiruzen but plus Tsunade, Hiashi and MS Kakashi + SM Naruto and the strongest 2 summons there is.

Madara had to use a suicide Attack to take out the fodder of that group. and still would have died if it wasn't for rinnegan.


X III said:


> You think he HAS to pay attention to fodder? Lol. Madara wasn't paying attention to actual people.


You are contradicting yourself.


X III said:


> No, he fucking wasn't. You see him  fine 2 secs afterwards.
> On top of that he literally CAN'T fucking lose unles he's sealed because he's Edo Tensei.
> 
> Madara no longer needed Kuramaa nd Gyuki. Juubi was already being revived.


2 seconds? are you lying deliberately here?
From here
Link removed
To here
Link removed
And ENTIRE chapter went by. Much dialogue and attacks are done, kyuubi and gyuuki charge up a massive TBB too. Obito warps kakashi and then Kakashi hits him in kamui. Kakashi comes out etc etc. WAY FUCKIN MORE THAN 2 SECONDS. What was madara doing? ready a book? checking his email?


X III said:


> As if CST would make a fucking difference. He used his STRONGEST attack, bro. He was defeated. Fair and square.


An attack meant for SEALING not killing. You do not understand how this works.


X III said:


> Mazo flat out can't be used as ET. Not that it' dmake a difference since Nagato can't control it.


Nagato did control it, and does control it, wtf are you talking about? And i know he cant use it as an edo.



X III said:


> You literally ACKNOWLEDGE @bold that Madara negged BM lol.


With the wood dragon literally made to do that, yes. And?



X III said:


> Nagato not dying from RT is only iMPLIED by Konan, who's NEVER SEEN THE JUTSU and has LIMITED KNOWLEGE on the Rinnegan. And even IF Nagato could use RT, that ONLY refers to his broken lifeforce, not his fucking strength. Legit the same shit as me saying Obito's > Nagato since his Outer Path is greater, or Sasuke's > Itachi because his Enton is greater.


Konan explains it, Nagato obviously has talked to her about it, why else would she have indepth knowledge of it?

The thing is, Nagato IS better at every path. the only discussion is the outer path. Obito has better control of the rods, but Nagato can use RT without dying. Obit also has a crazy life force. He doesn't even need to eat! he is part Zetsu. He also had the Gedo Mazo inside him at the time which is the biggest life force in naruto, Uzumaki cant live when bijuu are ripped from them. But, Someone with the Mazo can, the Mazo also kept madara alive, the moment he disconnected he died. So Nagato>Rinne Tensei>Mazo>Uzumaki=>Obito



X III said:


> Obito's flat out stated multiple times to be able to use other Paths of the Rinnegna. Even has on panel feats of using a couple.


He has only ever used outer path. Madara is shown teaching him only the outer path

And Obito also stated that he was Madara. He is a fuckin liar. Why would he say actually Kakashi, i dont know how to use rinnegan. That would tell him instantly that he isn't Madara. And it also tells them that they have nothing to fear.

The other thing is, You telling me Obito can use the paths yet doesn't know how to revive someone with hell realm? Kabuto knows, but Obito doesn't?


X III said:


> Obito literally shat on KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and Bee while TOYING WITH THEM and barely using the Bijuu.


Toying with them my ass, he was going for the win. And didn't win.
Barely use the bijuu? he had the bijuu chage up a 5 TBB barrage wtf are you talking about. If Naruto didn't save the day, gai was going to.


X III said:


> It as only when Naruto used BM that he could overpower the Bijuu. Note: BM Naruto SHITS on Nagato.


BM gets all his attacks absorbed by Nagato just like KCM did. A TBB is not equal to a V2 cloak which nagato can completely absorb.


X III said:


> After the Bijuu were dealt with, Obito fought against the team and ltierally NONE OF THEM could land hits on them until Kamui was used. Kamui, one of the ONLY COUNTERS to Obito's Kamui, was the oNLY way they could hit him. And even then, the MOST they did was tear off his fucking mask and cause MINIMAL damage to his sleeves.


none of them could land hits because of Kamui, duh. and despite that, obito still couldn't win. If Kakashi and Gai tried to save Naruto from Nagato, they would have faced the same fate as Bee. Caught and fucked over. Or simple Shinra tensei'd away. And thats also assuming Nagato even gave them the chance. the only reason naruto even survived for a second is because kabuto is a fuckin idiot and didnt use Human realms abilities on narutos HEAD, instantly winning the fight. So even though Nagato was being used by a scrub, he still would have murdered the 4 of them.



X III said:


> Obito and Madara, literally called t.


When everyone else was GONE. Wow so impressed. What about when they were all around, at that point, only Nagato was called the strongest.



X III said:


> This is such a fucking trash argument. Hashirama was called the God of Shinobi BECAUSE of how fucking strong he is. People know who he is BECAUSE of his strength lmao.


Ok?



X III said:


> Nagato isn't known after the war to be some fucking top dog Shinobi who can shit on anybody who isn't God Tier.


Probably because he fought 3 FUCKING PEOPLE. I bet you right now, if you asked Killer Bee, who beat your ass the hardest in that war, he wouldn't say madara who didn't beat him at all. He would say Nagato who no diffed him.



X III said:


> Guess who was jerked off by everyone? Hashirama. Guess who was compared to Hagoromo? Hashirama.


Guess who was a known figure? Hashirama! Guess who was an underground terrorist, Nagato.
Guess who else is compared to Hagoromo? And in a direct way, Nagato! and when was Hashirama compared to Hagoromo? As fare as i know its Ashura he is compared to. Thats the beauty of it all.
Nagato: Compared to Hagoromo
Madara and Hashirama: Compared to Hagoromos fuckin kids.



X III said:


> Guess whose powers were so fucking powerful they were referred to as a myth? Hashirama.


Guess whose eyes were considered a myth? Nagato. And Hashirama was not refered to as a myth is a serious way, there are people alive that actually fuckin saw him. Fuck, there are people in BORUTO who have seen hashirama alive.


X III said:


> Guess who was stated to be stronger than Madara while the other was a brat? Hashirama.


Guess why Madara called Nagato a brat? Cause the last time he saw him, HE WAS A KID. It's a common thing in anime. You see some one grown up and the older person says "You were that brat from blah blah blah"


X III said:


> Let's just completely ignore the fact that Hashirama, who fought both versions, called alive Madara physically stronger.
> 
> Let's also ignore the fact Hashirama also wasn't at full power, because BOTH were handicapped by ET.


Lets just ignore Kabuto flat out saying 2 times that Madara was stronger now. Just because he is regaining his physical abilites back doesnt mean he is stronger as EMS madara.



X III said:


> Kabuto doesn't give a shit what Obito thinks. That's why he wanted to defy him and steal Naruto and Bee underneath his nose.


But guess what, ruining the image of Obito as madara doesnt help him at all, not until his most powerful edo was taken out.


X III said:


> Guess who are stated to be the strongest AFTER the Itachi and Nagato battle? Madara & Obito.


Guess who was dead and gone, Nagato and Itachi. Such a bad point.


X III said:


> This makes literally no sense. Pain counters as Obito's firepower. If you actually believe the deal to be some genuine proof that Itachi > Obito or some shit, you'd flat out have to acknowledge Itachi > Obito, Pain, Akatsuki, 8 Bijuu, and Gedo Mazo (your fave).


That is retarded. You are ignoring the fact that Pain doesn't seem to even know about the deal, otherwise, why would he directly go against it? Why would Obito tell pain that he cucked to Itachi and promised not to attack Konoha? To tell Pain that he cant attack konoha tells him he made a deal with someone drastically weaker than himself, that doesnt make sense. Madara isnt some honorable person. That would tell pain straight up that he isnt who he says he is.


X III said:


> Stronger? Check, BM stomps KCM.


Not really, outside of using the full bijuu trasformation, they are nearly the same. The Bijuu mode transformation can do Bijuudama, thats the only major difference. But both Madara and Nagato arent phased by that so what does BM do for Naruto against them, Nothing. naruto is better off using KCM or the coop KCM over BM against both Madara and Nagato



X III said:


> Plot? Check, Madara never used PS or foughts eriously.


And Nagato was used poorly and was handicapped. And madara outright says he will fight seriously. You calling madara a liar???


X III said:


> Backup? Check, had Kakashi/Guy and eventually the entire SA. Madara also fought against BM Bee who Nagato never fought.


Back up, Itachi was there, and only saved them because Kabuto is a retard. No reason to only have 2 summons out, no reason to not use full asura giving him 3 sets of eyes, no reason to use human path like a retard.

And BM Bee would have done worse against Nagato. If Yugito, someone Bee looks up too, cant beat Hidan, why do you think Nagato is even phased by BM Bee? Bee could have transformed near him but didnt, and reverted back to base after CT was destroyed. He obviously doesnt want to be in that form against Nagato.



X III said:


> Yeah, FAR fucking less people.


MY POINT STANDS. I was referring to the past.


X III said:


> The Manga is OVER now, and EVERYBODY concurs Founders cuck Nagato. Use your brain, bro. You aren't right.


I don't give a darn what everyone says. I know thousands upon thousands of people who think goku can fight with superman. i'd even say the majority of people say that he could, when in reality, superman absolutely slaughters him.

The majority is not always right, they arent even generally right.
Using the majority argument is poor.


X III said:


> I can't be convinced because I'm 100% sure you're wrong and I'm right. It has nothing to do with my bias for Hashi/Madara. It's my own confidence on my stance. PERHAPS you CAN convince me, but I think there's nO Way.


More like Bias, as to be 100 percent convinced in a theoretical debate is literally the worst thing you can do. It shows that you are pointless to argue with. I assume you arent actually 100 percent convinced however.



X III said:


> KCM is not moderately weaker dude, smh. BM defeated 5 Bijuu. KCM struggled with one.


KCM did not struggle with 1, KCM struggled with 6. A full KCM capable of using 13 clones wrecks that whole group.


X III said:


> BM Bee >> V2.


In chakra level and DC, not in power.

KN6 Far outshines SM which, like i said, tossed around Kyuubi. Focused power is much better than the BM transformation. The BM transformation is only even used for the Bijuu dama.


X III said:


> You literally have him listed as your favorite character.
> 
> Although it's not that fucking hard to figure out with you saying shit like Nagato = Alive Rinnegan fucking SM Madara.



I haven't changed my bio in 12 FUCKING YEARS.



X III said:


> No I don't. That's literally what you do. That's how you reach the conclusion Nagato is Rinegan SM Madara level lmao.





X III said:


> It's an outlier because it never does anything remotely similar ever again.


Because it never hits anything like a pile of rubble again.



X III said:


> Two Kamuis.
> 
> And dude, Kakashi isn't a fucking Uchiha. MS takes a shit tone out of the user.. Kamui is LITERALLY what drained him out the last moment. Surprised I even have to contest such bullshit, even coming from you.


So just say the fuckin words, prior to the ST, if Kakashi did 2 TINY kamui, despite being at about half chakra, he would die. just say that is true.



X III said:


> Certanily are implying it by mentioning SM Naruto being durable even though we're talking about Founders vs ST right now.


Huh?


X III said:


> "FRS is Madara Susao'o slash level"
> Canon: Madara beats the Gokage with such technique
> 
> "But no tho! i'm not saying pain arc naruto is gokage level!!!"


hahahahahahahaha.
Madara didnt beat them with a slash. They literally fight right after that you fuck.
And if FRS hit the gokage, yes, they would all die.


X III said:


> Yeha, no.


Really? You don't think so?


X III said:


> Pain flat out acknowledges it as a counter lmao.
> 
> He was still weakened. He just went through a battle against Pain and went to KN.


Naruto was just fine. He has fought crazy battles before and after and showed no signs of a problem. Also, he fought with chakra that wasnt even his the ENTIRE TIME. how would he be tired? He was also completely healed during KN6.


X III said:


> Whether it's a rhino or not doesn't matter lol. It's not a biology class.
> 
> I never fucking said Pain's durability is weak. I said boss toads likely have weaker durability because of this.


NO.
You said
"He kicked it through the wall with a kick, then failed to do any real damage to Pain with a kick to the eye."
Stop lying, please.
You are saying the summons are weak because jiraiya blew them away yet didnt do much to pain. That implies that since pain was undamaged, the summons are weak.
You could also say, that because pain IS durable, and the summons took SM blows, that the summons are durable. Yet you are using Pains durability as a *negative* to the summons. You didnt say weaker or stronger till now IIRC. But the reallity is pain is SUPER durable, so what happens to him does not translate to the summons.

Tl;dr
Pain being more durable doesn't mean the summons have low durability.



X III said:


> We have no way to dell which version of Madara would be counted as "The Second Rikudou." Although Obito implies he was at that level, and even EMS Madara is above him lol.


Uhh yeah we do, common sense. If Nagato was the 3rd Rikudou, that means Madara was the second, and since Nagato died before Madara was revived, that can only mean he is talking about old Madara.

And obito is using the same eye and doesn't consider himself the 4th sage. how is that saying he is on the same level.



X III said:


> Then why did you even mention him?


because he is part of the point.



X III said:


> That's what I said. Drew means stalemate.


But it isnt reallllllly a stalemate. If they were alive at the same power as they were right there, Madara would have won, Hashirama was impaled and madara had no injuries.



X III said:


> No lol. It literally means his use is worse, just like Kakashi being worse at the MS than Madara.
> 
> Not like the Manga flat out fucking acknowledges that original wielders and all has a shit tone to do with the overall power of the Rinnegan or not.


Is that why Madara considers FRS too much chkara but pain eats FRS for lunch?
Is that why Nagato used 5 paths at the same time in one body but Obito and madara, even sasuke, can only use 1?

And the manga straight up says, the only fuckin difference between nagato using rinnegan and Madara is limbo. That is it. Does kakashi have worse precog than obito? Can he copy less efficiently? no. Nagato has access to every ability, but limbo. That is all. That is fact. He showed better Rinnegan use in 6 of the 7 paths.


X III said:


> No it isn't lol.
> 
> It's head canon. Flat out.
> 
> Madara and Nagato both used the Gedo Mazo with no Bijuu to fuel it. If one of them could control it easy while the other had to be impaled to the back, that means the other had worse control. Common sense. Stop making shit upt o support Nagato.


Bruh, it has ITS OWN LIFE FORCE.

And guess what.....why does akatsuki need to give chakra to the mazo to use the phantom dragon? Huh KINDA FUCKIN WIERD. Could it be that Madara didnt have to use his own chakra to full the Mazo because the mazo was fresh from being a host to the 9 bijuu? Unless you are saying the Mazo is immortal, its power would only decrease slowly but surely. Could it be that Madara didnt have to give chakra to the mazo because he used AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT JUTSU??? No way. weird that when you read the manga you see shit and understand it.

It is common knowledge that the Mazo needs outside chakra to use the Phantom dragons. It is blatantly shown EVERYTIME IT USED THAT MOVE.

But guess what...The chains didnt require outside chakra.

And I'm making shit up? I literally thrashed your entire argument and I'm betting im gonna hear more of this BS. 


X III said:


> Nor does she have any fucking knowledge on how RT works. Nice contradiction.
> 
> Half of Obito's body is made of Senju DNA. Madara has a giant face of Hashirama on his chest. "Bits of DNA" YEAH RIGHT.


No contradiction whatsoever.

yeah, thats a huge difference. Nagato is literally entirely senju bodied. and entirely Uchiha eyes. the exact thing needed to awaken Rinnegan. Madara are half uchiha body and full uchiha eyes. This is further proven by the fact that Obito cant even USE 2 as a fucking adult while Nagato did as a "brat".



X III said:


> "Hashi died to fodder tho"
> "Hash made a hole on the ground. What's so impressive"
> 
> This is blatant downplay.


No, It's blatant reality. And in the context of the discussion, its the fuckin truth.

If this was Hashirama vs Konohamaru, id say, "Konohamaru blew away a small cliff, Hashirama carved a fuckin VALLEY with punches." It is all contextual, bro.

Thats why everyone gets so salty, they think im trashing the founders when im literally placing them 1 peg down.

Also, this doesnt even prove your point, you said i used the low end for hashirama. Which i didnt, not that im downplaying him, which i am not.
so you straight up lied again.


X III said:


> Yes, if you take a single fucking FRS feat which FRS NEVER accomplishes again and use it as some defintive proof that Nagato shits on Hashi/Madara, then yes you're wanking.


when it never encounters the same circumstances, that's to be expected. Sasuke plunged Chidori through metal, one one time ever, it isnt an outlier though.


X III said:


> Shockwave bypasses Preta.


Shockwave of what? what shockwave surpasses Hirudora? Cause Nagato has durability above that. Nagato unharmed by the v2 lariat which is > Kisame > Hirudora
 Before you say some dumb shit about how kisame was beat by that move, yes and no. He was also punched in the stomach by 7th gate Gai. Obito was punched by kakashi and was puking blood. lariat left Kisame DEAD and missing his chest and internal organs. Nagato wasn't even scratched by that.


X III said:


> Hashi has Mokujin and Senjutsu.


which do fuck all to Nagato.


X III said:


> Already explained it well enough.


No, no you didn't. i now have provided several scans disproving your shit, how you react to this will be very interesting.


----------



## X III (Mar 9, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> You have no idea how the rules of debate work then. He has never ever been shown to do anything of the sort during an attack while using another jutsu. You are making the far fetched claim that he withdrew the Mokujin during the attack. You need to prove it.


I'm not necessarily saying he did, lol. I'm saying that you're claiming the Mokujin was caught int he explosion and was destroyed. I'm asking for a scan. If that feat contradicts a statement, it's most likely you're wrong. Once again, give me a scan.



kokodeshide said:


> Bullshit. he was able to do it before he got extra chakra back too. you telling me a near dead obito without any life force left could do more damage than a full powered Nagato Asura arms that are capable of ripping limbs off sage mode users? Or the fact that Nagato has various other methods of killing?


I said this before I was aware of the base Obito feat. I retract it, although it doesn't matter since Obito only managed that by catching Madara off guard and getting a cheap shot. The notion Nagato does anything against Madara is still laughable.



kokodeshide said:


> Bro, this is so fuckin stupid, you have to stop. He roars ALLL THE TIME. When did you become the kyuubi whisperer. Please interpret all the roars in the manga for me.


You're the one misinterpreting it lol. If something is made obvious, I take the obvious interpretation.



kokodeshide said:


> Ok, and? that means he is hurt? Naruto couldnt escape Preta before he got his chakra sucked, is preta path SM level now?


If he was able to restrain him, then he is to a degree on his level physically otherwise Naruto would've broken free easily.



kokodeshide said:


> he didnt get burned, his fur got scuffed.


From the FRS. And he was still hurt.

Point isn't that FRS did crazy damage or anything.



kokodeshide said:


> Bro, you see only the TINIEST bit of the sky and you say it was withdrawn? hahahahahahahahaha


Then where was it, lol.



kokodeshide said:


> They are solid manifestations of chakra. But they are still just chakra. Thats why they get absorbed by the mazo via the phantom dragons and then dissappear, unlike the people hit by the phantom dragons.


Obviously the Bijuu are different when they're in Chakra Avatar state though. It's made apparent.



kokodeshide said:


> What? SS can do what the Juubi could not? Wtf are you talking about. Poison him with his flowers? you mean put him to sleep? Ok? And?


Yes, considering it ripped off Susano'o. The Juubi did damage to Kurama, and Kurama regened.

Poison or Deity Gates is still win via incapacitation.



kokodeshide said:


> what denial? when you say shit like this and i consistently prove you wrong what is it you think, please, tell me.


You're not proving anything wrong, dude.

We literally just had an argument about different damage types, which you forgot within a second of it after it finished up. Lol



kokodeshide said:


> HAHAHA, because saving naruto who was incapable of saving himself means the same thing right? False equivalence.


Literally still makes no sense no matter how you put it.

Adult Naruto could get saved by Boruto. Doesn't mean Boruto is stronger.



kokodeshide said:


> Dude, PS was used as a suit. Since when was the samurai weaker than his armor? Why did sasukes susano need amps to fight along side naruto?
> 
> and against hashi it was blown away but kyuubi takes way greater hits.


This is fiction. This armor is living.

His Susano'o needed amps to fight alongside Naruto's amped (by SM) Kurama Avatar.

It was blown awayb ecause it took nearly all the hits.

Madara literally uses Susano'o to tank Kurama's tBB.



kokodeshide said:


> Sasuke was literally marveling at Naruto's power 2 second before that point so yes, Kishimoto flat out told us that sasuke was the weaker ninja.


He was marvelling at his Chakra reserves. Naruto literally gives him a Chakra amp to hlep him keep up.



kokodeshide said:


> Then why are you bringing it up. Sasuke needed outside help to equal naruto who was gathering his sage energy.


You're the one who brought the example up.



kokodeshide said:


> nearly on par minus the fact that Naruto didnt want to kill sasuke..


And yet he had the same mindset as VOTE1, where he said he'd break every bone in Sasuke's bodyt o bring him back. They both also lost their arms. Lack of KI isn't a huge issue in this battle, especially when they're using giant megazords and are forced into using their strongest attacks no matter what to defend themselves.



kokodeshide said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> Literally 2 paged him. But for plot purposes, didn't kill him, just grabbed him for the RDS.


What stops Oro from surviving any of his attacks bar RDS?



kokodeshide said:


> A4 would one shot Mei. She is garbage compared to him. Oonoki just about oneshots mei. Gaara in the desert one shots mei, out of the dester maybe 4 shots mei. Tsunade briefly struggles against mei, but Byakugo rapes.


Even if this were true, Mei would be a sole outlier out of 5.



kokodeshide said:


> So my point stands? Sasuke and naruto fought together, yet he was far above him at the time.
> 
> And in shippuden Naruto and Sai are called the top of Konohas growing generation, Sakura isnt in the discussion.


At that time. Where the difference was made clear. If not in that fight, then 2 chapters later where Sasuke punks 2 Chunin where Naruto was scared shitless.

Which is irrelevant towards the fact that both Naruto AND Sakura contributed towards the bell test. Neither of them is stomping the other at that time.



kokodeshide said:


> That feat is literally so fuckin insignificant its hurts your cause to bring it up. A TBB is MAGNITUDES higher in power.
> 
> The susano tanked a weak TBB that just about any TB could survive, assuming they are roughly the same durability as Gyuuki.
> 
> And you repeat the X is = To kurama BS without even asking WHY is it equal. It never says equal in power or defense. But it does SHOW it wins via sealing.


And yet lesser Bijuu lost to weaker attacks. We're getting to areas where we've already been lol.

Databook context is clear. You're the one in denial, bro. Sealing isn't mentioned. Mokujin's physical strength, offense, and defense is literally mentioned on the same page. If Mokujin was foder compared to Kurama, none of this shit would be mentioned. It'd solely be talking about suppression/sealing.



kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, you are missing the overall point to debate semantics. The point is, even if PS was 5000 times stronger than V4 susano, it still PALES in comparison to the difference between a TBB and a massive charged TBB


The entire point is size doesn't matter for a Susano'o.



kokodeshide said:


> If it is shown, why is that a problem, because it doesnt fit your narrative?


It's not shown, lol. Katsuyu nearly died by having contact with KN6-8 Naruto. All of which are lesser versions of 50% Kurama, who's < 100% Kurama, who's = PS and Mokujin.



kokodeshide said:


> Then for somereason you bring up when it doesnt help your case.


Which you're guilty of doing a lot btw.

Anyway, it does matter because Tsunade and a fodder ANBU survived that attack, even if on the edge. The rubble was still pushed towards her, so she survived the attack to a degree.

This is, btw, ignoring the clear panel which shows Tsunade and that fodder  at the center of the village. So she was actually closer to the middle than we thought.



kokodeshide said:


> lol. First off, the lesser point, the anime shows him be destroyed.
> Now , for the real point. Why the fuck does oro need to use Oral rebirth then? Also, where is his body afterward, oh wait, he withdrew it, right?


To get away from Naruto? The body's never shown disintegrating. And the fact he could punch Naruto without that happening should be proof of the contrary.

Kusanagi touched KN4's skin for a while with no burns either, so it's relaly not too impressive.



kokodeshide said:


> When other people die on contant, yes, she dealt with it no problem. If something took amaterasu burning it for 10 minutes when Pains FRS tanking dog took moments to burn away i would say the same thing. Obviously it will end in death, but when nothing else survives more than instant contact, its fair to say she took the cloack with no problem. and this was a tiny fraction of her.


She flat out disagrees with you tho.

And tiny or not, she has the same durability as the rest of herself, because she's the same thing. You were literally saying a few posts ago that the same material means the durability is the same. So you should agree with me here.



kokodeshide said:


> You are assuming he dropped out so that you can say he didn get beat, you realize this, right? This is proof positive of bias. He literally says he wont hold back anymore then he just decides to stop fighting? Explain why that makes any sense.


Because he LITERALLY fucking stops fighting, dude. This doesn't take too much intelligence to figure out. An immortal infinitely regenerating zombie not using his ULTIMATE JUTSU should be iffy enough. Additionally, we have the fact that he's flat out sitting all chill next time he's on screen and not going back towards the fight. If he was in a fighting mood, he would've done that. Furthermore, this is flat out justified because his goal of reviving the Juubi was already being completed. He no longer needed the Nine Tails or Eight Tails. So literally everything points towards me being right. I await your concession.



kokodeshide said:


> No I don't. It is a fiction, Kisame could take a meteor on him and not die and i dont have to explain shit, but guess what, it means he is more durable than those who failed to take the same attack.


Not what I meant. You have to tell me how Kisame having greater durability than a Chakra Construct hyped up for durability being used by the main villain makes any sense.



kokodeshide said:


> Cancel out parts of the attack? it doesnt work that way. You dont cancel out parts, you either overpower it entirely or you dont. And they dont have the power to do that.


Pretty much what I meant. Sorry for bad worthing on my part.



kokodeshide said:


> Like i fuckin said.


You literally opposed it and compared Ribcage to PS.



kokodeshide said:


> Ok? I dont deny that at all.


Then why bring it up?



kokodeshide said:


> Then explain why Isobu could tank Kyuubis roar and hits which are above a C1 deidaras attacks while it was in a jinchuriki.


Kyubi's roar isn't an explosive attack.



kokodeshide said:


> Prove I ever lost a point and failed to concede. Do that and i will concede this entire argument. I dont fuckin work like that. If you are right, you are right idc.
> 
> And yes, Madara did lose, he wanted to capture them before the juubi awoke, then failed to do so so he lost.


"I acknowledge the fact the Gedo dealt with something that the Juubi had difficulty with."
"Instead of conceding, I'll make shit up that SOMEHOW points towards the Gedo being able to deal with an attack the Juubi had difficulty with, because that makes TOTAL sense."

"I acknowledge the fact Nagato had to get pierced by Chakra Rods to control the Mazo."
"Instead of conceding, I will make some random head canon fanfic about the Gedo Mazo which is not grounded at all by the Manga so that Nagato can now use the Gedo Mazo easier."

"I acknowledge the fact that lesser Tailed Beasts were sliced by attacks weaker than PS slash."
"Instead of conceding, I'll start talking about their regeneration too and I will hype up these weapons (aka Hidan's scythe and Gamabunta's sword) even though it's worthless doing that in front of PS slash."

"I'll acknowledge the fact that SM Naruto survived ST practically unscathed. I will also acknowledge Hashi/Madara have greater durability. However, I will still push the idea that somehow a normal ST can deal major damage to Hashirama/Madara and their constructs because it could push 3 Boss Summons, one of which momentarily stunned Kurama."

"I acknowledge the fact that 50% KN6 could resisst ST, but I will keep pushing the notion that ST will deal great damage because it worked on Gamabunta who could stun Kurama for a bit. This doesn't at all imply that either my reasoning is off or that KN6 > Kurama. Not at all."

"Katsuyu admitted she nearly died? Cool. Now I'll start misinterpreting you and comparing Katsuyu to Orochimaru and how she was with KN6 l, despite her statement having nothing to do with that."

"I changed my stance on Naruto vs Kurama being impressive? No."

"Databook says Mokujin = Kurama? Mentions offense, defense, and physical attacks? No mention of suppression. NO, NO. IT MUST BE SUPPRESSION."

                         ^
                  What's funny about this is you actually contradicted it by saying suppression/sealing doesn't count as power:


kokodeshide said:


> Unless you think Chiyo>Shukaku, Darui>V2 Kinkaku, Madara> all 9 bijuu he just got his ass whooped by, Kushina>Kurama, Mito>Kurama, then yes, *Suppression and sealing is NOT power*.



                  ^
Databook wouldn't have said they were equal in strength if suppression/sealing wasn't counted as power.

There are probably more, but those are some major ones.



kokodeshide said:


> Oh my god, dude, fit you arm in a fuckin coke can please. If the juubi was in the barrier, he would be crushed down to a fraction of his real size, are you implying that?


Or the Juubi could have broken the barrier with his presence, lol.

What did you say? "This is fiction"



kokodeshide said:


> And it shows RIGHT THERE, that the rods on his back are directly related to that.


Conceded.



kokodeshide said:


> scaling based on what? what durability feats do you have for Hashirama to put them on the same level as katsuyu? SM Hashiboob amped Madara lost his arm from some tail slaps even though he was in a V2 susano. Katsuyu isn't harmed by that at all. You severely downplay Katsuyus durability here. The only thing in the entire manga to hurt her was the Shinju.
> 
> Lets also not forget that Tsunade put her ENTIRE seal into Katsuyu to protect the villagers. So it wasnt just Katsuyu. Tsunade after a whole day of fighting madara using byakugo didnt lose her seal. But with this 1 attack she did.


Tsunade using her whole seal is explained. She has to spread her Chakra throughout the entire village to give every single person some protection. Enough protection to help them with that atttack.

That feat only goes to show how powerful the Tailed Beasts are.

As I said, Katsuyu could barely survive inside 50% KN6-KN8, which are < 100% Kurama = Mokujin/PS.



kokodeshide said:


> He has the feat of redirecting Pain shinra tensei, that requires power to launch the 3 boss toads.


That's not a lifting feat. SM Naruto could take a giant rhino and hurl it up to the sky.



kokodeshide said:


> No it isn't. FRS didnt hurt Kurama, it stunned him.
> And yes, SM naruto was beating on Kurama. So both are valid points.
> 
> This is you right now.
> ...


No, because you literally fucking changed your stance dude. You went from saying one isn't impressive to saying it is later on.



kokodeshide said:


> You still have to show me a time when a simple roar meant pain. His roars from the Rasneshuriken were different so good look proving he is in pain as simply being grabbed doesnt imply anything.





kokodeshide said:


> Sage mode was FAR stronger than 50 percent kyuubi.


You can't have SM Naruto be far stronger than somebody and have his strnogest Jutsu do no damage. Blatant contradictino.



kokodeshide said:


> But we know that the paper seal is simply a place holder for the real seal. The door only opens with the key. or, narutos complete surrender to the kyuubi. but guess what, KN9 was already there. How could KN9 show up BEFORE the seal comes off if what you say is true? Here is the answer, it cant


Maybe Kishi added that there to overdramatize it? It doesn't explain why Minato says he would come out when Naruto has KN8.

And even then, how does this help your fight? It's already explained that the KNs are Kurama acting through Naruto. There's no Jin + Bijuu cooperation, so it's pretty much completely Kurama.



kokodeshide said:


> Im going to delete my original response to this because it was insanely rude. But still you have got to be the biggest fuckin moron on the face of planet earth if you believe what you just fuck said.
> 
> Did pain land only meters infront of the hokage monument here?
> Link removed
> ...


So they literally changed a little bit to the left. Kewl. Not like you contradicted yourself from earlier saying they were across the village.



kokodeshide said:


> They are on the other fuckin side of the village wtf are you talking about? Do you not understand perspective at all?


What you're praising as perspective is literally inconsistencies from Kishimoto, dude. Just face it.

Stupid opinoin? Literally everyone on this section thinks you have trash opinions. Please don't even start.

Literally, even if you do end up proving me wrong, at least I know how to concede. You may wanna learn that, or start applying it.



kokodeshide said:


> Uhhh, no, because he says it wasnt his biggest.


Even though it collapsed and he was tired af. Nice lol. "Trash opinions" you were saying?



kokodeshide said:


> It is VERY far from konoha. and he beat a handful of ninja with taijutsu. He doesnt have to face the entire Akimichi clan or Aburame clan or Hyuuga clan. Madara gets fuckin wrecked in konoha. Hiashi alone is enough to cause serious interference with his PS. He knocked away a Juubi tail swipe with it. Aburames drain his PS with little effort. Konoha is a fuckin force. You are severely underestimating the ability of Konoha. just a scattered group of Konoha ninjascrambled together quickly pushed the full Kyuuubi from Konoha, with ZERO uchiha support I will add, and you think Madaras PS who you say is equal to Kyuubi will beat konoha? Are you fuckin serious? That alone wrecks your whole argument.
> 
> Because the village wasn't using the Uchiha clan that day, we can compare the 2 villages. Tsunade, who Jiraiya said was unbeatable in the same conversation as him saying Minato had potential to be the best, but died young. We also have MS kakashi. Gai was gone, Asuma was dead. but every other clan was there. so same clans, but likely better clans now as Shikaku and Choza are the heads of their clans, Hiashi is closer to his prime, Minus Minato and Hiruzen but plus Tsunade, Hiashi and MS Kakashi + SM Naruto and the strongest 2 summons there is.
> 
> Madara had to use a suicide Attack to take out the fodder of that group. and still would have died if it wasn't for rinnegan.


Apparently pushing Kurama out of a village shits on my argument. Even though you were earlier saying FRS did ntohing to Kurama. 

Hiashi gets shat on. Everybody in the Leaf gets shat on if the fodder Paths were stomping them. Also I'm pretty sure the Uchiha are dead. I'm also pretty sure the Hyuga (main branch) were gone during the Pain fight, iIRC.

He didn't have to suicide lol. He did it to exploit ET.

Anyway, Madara shits on Konoha. This is universally agreed on. Facts don't care about your feelings.



kokodeshide said:


> You are contradicting yourself.


No, I'm not. Quite obvious what I meant.

Pain doesn't have to pay attention, because he's facing fodder.

Madara does have to pay attention to Ohnoki, Naruto, and Gaara. Because they're actual threats.



kokodeshide said:


> 2 seconds? are you lying deliberately here?
> From here
> Link removed
> To here
> ...


Sitting down. Otherwise we'd see him running towards the battlefield.



kokodeshide said:


> An attack meant for SEALING not killing. You do not understand how this works.


Which doesn't matter. We're talking about strongest attacks. Nagato used it.



kokodeshide said:


> Nagato did control it, and does control it, wtf are you talking about? And i know he cant use it as an edo.


Can't control it without rods. Unless I follow your bs headcanon that is.



kokodeshide said:


> With the wood dragon literally made to do that, yes. And?


Contradiction, nevertheless. Considering you said Nagato's performance was better. I mean, Preta Path could be countered as a counter for V2 Cloaks.



kokodeshide said:


> Konan explains it, Nagato obviously has talked to her about it, why else would she have indepth knowledge of it?
> 
> The thing is, Nagato IS better at every path. the only discussion is the outer path. Obito has better control of the rods, but Nagato can use RT without dying. Obit also has a crazy life force. He doesn't even need to eat! he is part Zetsu. He also had the Gedo Mazo inside him at the time which is the biggest life force in naruto, Uzumaki cant live when bijuu are ripped from them. But, Someone with the Mazo can, the Mazo also kept madara alive, the moment he disconnected he died. So Nagato>Rinne Tensei>Mazo>Uzumaki=>Obito


This talks strictly about life force, though it doesn't matter because Nagato surviving is only an implication. Databook says anybody who dies dies.Nagato isn't listed as an exception. 

"Gedou Rinnei Tensei no Jutsu

*Ones life is not spared for a worthy cause (sacrifce ones life for a worthy cause), life burns after it's returned from the underworld* (? I think, man this was a tough one).

Rikudou's technique, the antithesis to the path of hell, is this Jutsu (basically it's the opposite of sending one to hell, it's liberating them from hell). The ruler of hades is summoned, the life of a deceased is granted life. It's different than Edo Tensei, because one is brought perfectly back to life with the body/flesh being rejuvenated, a supreme jutsu. Nagato had the jutsu in his possession and he used it to rejuvenate everyone in the leaf village. A wondrous miracle Jutsu, of course naturally there exists an equivalent exchange. Ones life. To stake ones life, one would decisively say it's self sacrifice.

Gedou's power to return to the soul to the flesh a second time."



kokodeshide said:


> He has only ever used outer path. Madara is shown teaching him only the outer path
> 
> And Obito also stated that he was Madara. He is a fuckin liar. Why would he say actually Kakashi, i dont know how to use rinnegan. That would tell him instantly that he isn't Madara. And it also tells them that they have nothing to fear.
> 
> The other thing is, You telling me Obito can use the paths yet doesn't know how to revive someone with hell realm? Kabuto knows, but Obito doesn't?


Madara literally states he's going to teach him the Rikudou no Jutsu.

Kakashi and Guy were the ones who theorized. 

He clearly knows how to. He does it with Madara.. 

Obito showed Outer Path, ,  levitation. No reason to believe he can't use the rest, especially when he has a shit ton of statements saying he can.



kokodeshide said:


> Toying with them my ass, he was going for the win. And didn't win.
> Barely use the bijuu? he had the bijuu chage up a 5 TBB barrage wtf are you talking about. If Naruto didn't save the day, gai was going to.


Barely used the Bijuu up until Naruto used BM.

Before that, he was sticking to V2 and 2 BM transformations, no TBBs.



kokodeshide said:


> BM gets all his attacks absorbed by Nagato just like KCM did. A TBB is not equal to a V2 cloak which nagato can completely absorb.


This is such an NLF.

Tbb shits on V2.



kokodeshide said:


> none of them could land hits because of Kamui, duh. and despite that, obito still couldn't win. If Kakashi and Gai tried to save Naruto from Nagato, they would have faced the same fate as Bee. Caught and fucked over. Or simple Shinra tensei'd away. And thats also assuming Nagato even gave them the chance. the only reason naruto even survived for a second is because kabuto is a fuckin idiot and didnt use Human realms abilities on narutos HEAD, instantly winning the fight. So even though Nagato was being used by a scrub, he still would have murdered the 4 of them.


No, they would've analyzed and countered shared vision like Itachi lol. 

Based on what is the head somehow better than the stomach?

Of course it was Kamui. That's the point..



kokodeshide said:


> When everyone else was GONE. Wow so impressed. What about when they were all around, at that point, only Nagato was called the strongest.


What the fuck even is this argument? They're called the strongest because they're the last remaining. Common fucking sense. "Please tell me this is the only trash opinion you have."

New info replaces outdated info. Common sense. Please use your head a little and overcome your bias. 



kokodeshide said:


> Probably because he fought 3 FUCKING PEOPLE. I bet you right now, if you asked Killer Bee, who beat your ass the hardest in that war, he wouldn't say madara who didn't beat him at all. He would say Nagato who no diffed him.


He would say Madara, lol. That's the reason Madara got a fuckin reputation.



kokodeshide said:


> Guess who was a known figure? Hashirama! Guess who was an underground terrorist, Nagato.
> Guess who else is compared to Hagoromo? And in a direct way, Nagato! and when was Hashirama compared to Hagoromo? As fare as i know its Ashura he is compared to. Thats the beauty of it all.
> Nagato: Compared to Hagoromo
> Madara and Hashirama: Compared to Hagoromos fuckin kids.


Except Madara's also compared to Hagoromo, lol. So is . In fact, that same panel says nobody who is alive today is as strnog as Hashirama. But I know that you'll twist it around to some stupid shit like "obviously!!! nagato isn't alive today!"



kokodeshide said:


> Guess whose eyes were considered a myth? Nagato. And Hashirama was not refered to as a myth is a serious way, there are people alive that actually fuckin saw him. Fuck, there are people in BORUTO who have seen hashirama alive.


Guess whose eyes are borrowed? Nagato's.



kokodeshide said:


> Guess why Madara called Nagato a brat? Cause the last time he saw him, HE WAS A KID. It's a common thing in anime. You see some one grown up and the older person says "You were that brat from blah blah blah"


He got information from Black Zetsu about practically everything that happened.



kokodeshide said:


> Lets just ignore Kabuto flat out saying 2 times that Madara was stronger now. Just because he is regaining his physical abilites back doesnt mean he is stronger as EMS madara.


He's stronger overall because he has new abilities.

Alive counterparts are physically superior. As Tobirama said, Edos were revived a little weaker than their alive states.



kokodeshide said:


> I don't give a darn what everyone says. I know thousands upon thousands of people who think goku can fight with superman. i'd even say the majority of people say that he could, when in reality, superman absolutely slaughters him.
> 
> The majority is not always right, they arent even generally right.
> Using the majority argument is poor.


I'd still take majority over you lol. 

Majority are right most of the time, especially when arguing about a Manga that ended years ago.



kokodeshide said:


> More like Bias, as to be 100 percent convinced in a theoretical debate is literally the worst thing you can do. It shows that you are pointless to argue with. I assume you arent actually 100 percent convinced however.


Yes, I am 100% confident. And yes, it's not biased. Think of it however you will. I don't care if you think I'm biased or not. But I know I'm not.



kokodeshide said:


> KCM did not struggle with 1, KCM struggled with 6. A full KCM capable of using 13 clones wrecks that whole group.


He used no clones. Moot point.

On top of that clones are inconsistent af.



kokodeshide said:


> In chakra level and DC, not in power.
> 
> KN6 Far outshines SM which, like i said, tossed around Kyuubi. Focused power is much better than the BM transformation. The BM transformation is only even used for the Bijuu dama.


Yes, in power too.

BM transformation is for everything, otherwise there'd be no point. Bijuu Damas can be used as V2s.



kokodeshide said:


> I haven't changed my bio in 12 FUCKING YEARS.


Woah, looks like a struck a nerve. 

Anyway, the fact you had/have Pain listed as your favorite, even if it was 12 years ago, doesn't make you look very good by siding that up with your opinions.



kokodeshide said:


> So just say the fuckin words, prior to the ST, if Kakashi did 2 TINY kamui, despite being at about half chakra, he would die. just say that is true.


No, as I never stated Kakashi was unscathed from the ST.



kokodeshide said:


> Because it never hits anything like a pile of rubble again.


Yes, it does. Vs pian.



kokodeshide said:


> hahahahahahahaha.
> Madara didnt beat them with a slash. They literally fight right after that you fuck.
> And if FRS hit the gokage, yes, they would all die.


I know they do, lol. But the slash made them look like fodder. An indirect swing had them getting tossed around like a ST.



kokodeshide said:


> Naruto was just fine. He has fought crazy battles before and after and showed no signs of a problem. Also, he fought with chakra that wasnt even his the ENTIRE TIME. how would he be tired? He was also completely healed during KN6.


KN states are literally stated to shorten his life and fatigue him.

Naruto literally fainted after Nagato was dealt with, for Kakashi to pick him.



kokodeshide said:


> NO.
> You said
> "He kicked it through the wall with a kick, then failed to do any real damage to Pain with a kick to the eye."
> Stop lying, please.
> ...


I'm not lying lol. I literally had it in the part where you quoted. 

Anyway, former makes more sense. Since Pain paths are never implied to be some durable beasts, bar the strongest ones. One of them got done in by a Rasengan from Konohamaru. 



kokodeshide said:


> Uhh yeah we do, common sense. If Nagato was the 3rd Rikudou, that means Madara was the second, *and since Nagato died before Madara was revived, that can only mean he is talking about old Madara.*
> 
> And obito is using the same eye and doesn't consider himself the 4th sage. how is that saying he is on the same level.


What? Bold makes no sense.

Obito held himself at a higher light than Nagato, so he thought he was capable as second Rikudou.



kokodeshide said:


> But it isnt reallllllly a stalemate. If they were alive at the same power as they were right there, Madara would have won, Hashirama was impaled and madara had no injuries.


Wood Dragons could have chewed him up. 



kokodeshide said:


> Is that why Madara considers FRS too much chkara but pain eats FRS for lunch?
> Is that why Nagato used 5 paths at the same time in one body but Obito and madara, even sasuke, can only use 1?
> 
> And the manga straight up says, the only fuckin difference between nagato using rinnegan and Madara is limbo. That is it. Does kakashi have worse precog than obito? Can he copy less efficiently? no. Nagato has access to every ability, but limbo. That is all. That is fact. He showed better Rinnegan use in 6 of the 7 paths.


Madara also ate it like lunch. If anything, easier than Pain. Pain also had trouble with a Katon.

Literally based on what can those three not use 5 Paths at the same time? Lack of showings doesn't mean they can't lol. 

I never said Nagato can't use all the Paths, I said his efficiency is worse. Which it is, because the Rinnegan abilities depend on the caster's own power.And original owners are the best.



kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, it has ITS OWN LIFE FORCE.


So why did Nagato have to give it his own?



kokodeshide said:


> And guess what.....why does akatsuki need to give chakra to the mazo to use the phantom dragon? Huh KINDA FUCKIN WIERD.


In order to seal the Bijuu. 

They were also able to do it without getting stabbed by rods lol.



kokodeshide said:


> Could it be that Madara didnt have to use his own chakra to full the Mazo because the mazo was fresh from being a host to the 9 bijuu?


Could it be that the Mazo had just lost those Bijuu and now only has its own "life force"? No way. I must make an argument that favors Nagato immediately! No matter how ridiculous it is!



kokodeshide said:


> Could it be that Madara didnt have to give chakra to the mazo because he used AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT JUTSU???


Could it be that that makes no sense? Because operating the Mazo takes Chakra regardless?



kokodeshide said:


> The chains didnt require outside chakra.


Yes, they do.



kokodeshide said:


> yeah, thats a huge difference. Nagato is literally entirely senju bodied. and entirely Uchiha eyes. the exact thing needed to awaken Rinnegan. Madara are half uchiha body and full uchiha eyes. This is further proven by the fact that Obito cant even USE 2 as a fucking adult while Nagato did as a "brat".


Ik. Just saying that you exaggerated here.



kokodeshide said:


> No, It's blatant reality. And in the context of the discussion, its the fuckin truth.
> 
> If this was Hashirama vs Konohamaru, id say, "Konohamaru blew away a small cliff, Hashirama carved a fuckin VALLEY with punches." It is all contextual, bro.
> 
> ...


What I meant by "low end" wasn't for a calc. You already know I'm not about that. Low end was referring to that "hole in the ground" in addition to you saying that he died to fodder.



kokodeshide said:


> Shockwave of what? what shockwave surpasses Hirudora? Cause Nagato has durability above that. Nagato unharmed by the v2 lariat which is > Kisame > Hirudora
> Before you say some dumb shit about how kisame was beat by that move, yes and no. He was also punched in the stomach by 7th gate Gai. Obito was punched by kakashi and was puking blood. lariat left Kisame DEAD and missing his chest and internal organs. Nagato wasn't even scratched by that.


He literally wasn't given enough time to regenerate for Lariat because he healed it with Gakido. So I don't even know how you reached the conclusion he tanked that lol. 



kokodeshide said:


> which do fuck all to Nagato.


Counter Preta.



kokodeshide said:


> No, no you didn't. i now have provided several scans disproving your shit, how you react to this will be very interesting.


It's nothing interesting. Just calling you out on your bs once again.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanks so much, I had no idea that all you had to do is highlight the text, marvels of modern computing huh.
With that said, the rest of your post is still as dishonest as usual, was really hoping you would come through bruh, but lately I just can't seem to get through to ya bruh no matter how many facts I throw at you.


kokodeshide said:


> So you want to ignore the mangas own explanation, got it.
> 
> The akatsuki traveled as a group when Yahiko was the leader. thats it.



Troll harder dude. That last post of yours was Darkscion tier lying, very dissapointing. I showed you all the evidence. I showed you the databook entry prior too, and you literally didn't even read my response. What a waste of time. I honestly believe you didn't read it through. And the manga never stated that Susbtitution was Body Flicker either, so yeah, gtfo. Body Flicker is depicted by leaves, smoke, swirling movement lines, regular movement lines fire, even in ink in some cases. Still follows the laws of motion. When V2 Ayy uses his top speed, you know it because whatever he gets slammed into gets fucked up. Meanwhile Nagato's arm barely moved despite Itachi jumping so fast into the air that Killer Bee couldn't trace his speed. according to your logic with nagato's arm barely moving. I guess that speed is why a shadow clone was left behind in his previous position too rofl.

And yeah bro, keep trolling. Jiraiya clearly stated that the NINE Akatsuki members we know today, the 9 s rank criminals, Itachi, Kisame, Kakazu, Hidan, Deidara, Sasori, Zetsu, Pain, and Konan (minus Orochimaru) were the ones who used to band together, but had only recently started moving as pairs after orochimaru left.



we KNOW that after orochimaru left, Deidara joined and became Sasori's partner. Deidara was recruited to replace Orochimaru. Itachi, Kisame, and Sasori were all sent to recruit Deidara.  The timeline is obviously fucked up anyway because Itachi would have to be younger than 11 when he joined the Akatsuki, which we know isn't true. But the point is there was a time when they moved together, period.





kokodeshide said:


> Bro, you realize it would have to be hundreds of kilometers long to equal CST right? You are telling me that 55 teratons or hundreds of Gigatons is weaker than 300 kiliotons? get real. You are fuckin delusional here. Please, just say it. say it clearly so the whole board knows. say 300 kilotons is greater than hundreds of Gigatons.







So now we are speculating? The burden of proof is on YOU. You made the claim that that Nagato has better firepower based on feats, but you subtly admitted you don't know the full length of the valley. As far as I know, there isn't a scale for the Konoha maps, but here is something:

Based on this scaling, if we lowball the valley and only assume it only covers the length of the border specifically shared by the Land of Fire and Land of sound, it's already 6,788 KM long. We don't even know that much. All we know is that the Valley is a BORDER  that covers at minimum the width of the land of sound.  So still possibly a low end feat. Redoing my previous calc:
6,788,000 m x 1,000,000 x 100m x 100 x 69 j/cm^3 = 4.68372 × 10e18  J LARGE MOUNTAIN. And this is still a low end because it doesn't factor in PERFECT SUSANO'O. Don't you get it? The guy REDRAWS THE WORLD MAPS. The battle was stated to devastate the earth so  much that bros considered Hashi to be comparable to the Sage of Six paths, he was a  FAIRY TALE. I don't care what you say. It's still a low end because : We don't know the full length of the valley, hashi wasn't aiming to create the valley, he did it by circumstance; the explosion of the hands colliding with susano'o created the valley. if the hands  actually hit the ground then there would be way more damage.  His attack WAS WEAKENED by the bijuu dama.

This calc corroborates what we already know.
> Base Hashi has more chakra than the frigging HALF OF KYUUBI + naruto. Madara by extension is also stronger than half of the kyuubi. Power and stamina are directly related, feel free to argue against like the whole manga bro. Jiraiya specifically tailored his training of naruto to fit with naruto's huge amount of dormant power lying inside of him. The ability to spam shadow clones, make giant ass rasengans, the ability to enter sage mode, incredible physical strength and durability, the list goes on. It's all strongly correlated.
> That same half of Kyuubi's sheer physical strength overpowered passive chibaku tensei gravity pull which was still required to keep a  mini moon suspended in the sky.  Perfect Susano'o and mokujin also crawl out of CST with shit diff.
Hashirama and Madara are somewhere in between half of kyuubi and full kyuubi, and even then, Hashirama is not as far away as you like to claim. After figthing for over 16 hours, the guy still had enough chakra to summon a construct big enough to make full kurama look tiny. Kurama has better overall firepower, But SS's sheer size and mass and physical strength allowed it to CASUALLY grab Kurama, make it wince in pain, and hold it in place before suppressing it. SS breaks out of Chibaku tensei with absolutely shit diff, so your wank for CBT is irrelevant lmao. Nagato literally has to bleed to make two techniques capable of competing with the founders, and he wasn't fighting for anywhere near as long as they were, and Hashi and Madara were using chakra taxing techniques the whole way. Madara had to summon kyuubi (summoning chakra cost directly proportional to power and size of the creature) and maintain sharingan genjutsu. Hashirama was spamming huge mokuton forests and giant buddha hands and constructs. Either way, even Half of Kyuubi is above Nagato's paygrade in power, not even up for debate. it can blow big bijuu with it's roars and gyuki admitted it's strength was in a different league
>Kisame is at best gyuki level in terms of raw chakra and power. And Nagato admitted that Kisame had more chakra than him.
>Hashi shit diff'ed edo tensei control via power. while nagato on the other hand got shit diff'd by edo tensei.
> EMS Madara is capable of country level attacks based on his weakened Edo form summoning giant meteors, which created tremors as far as the shinobi alliance headquarters.
> Madara learned the SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE AS AN OLD MAN, more proof of his insane chakra levels. he said so ON PANEL. The Six paths technique is clearly stated to include all six paths plus the 7th path. Showed Preta, Bansho Tenin and Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, as well as Outer Path. Prove that he didn't use Shinra Tensei . What other technique does he have that can blow Gaara's sand and Mei's water dragon away, because we know he didn't absorb it.
So troll harder bro.




kokodeshide said:


> There wouldnt be a shockwave that reached him. The attacks stop on impact of his barrier anyway.



Yes there would. Each of those buddha hands are big enough to easily grab Full Kurama. Nagato and his tiny ass preta barrier don't have enough surface area or area of affect. He will get blinded right away. The hands will also be hitting all the terrain all around him. 50 hands or so pile up on his barrier. 500 hit the terrain around Nagato. then the other 450 obliterate the hands piled up on his barrier and the aggregrate of all those shockwaves eventually smash Nagato to bits.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 10, 2019)

X III said:


> I'm not necessarily saying he did, lol. I'm saying that you're claiming the Mokujin was caught int he explosion and was destroyed. I'm asking for a scan. If that feat contradicts a statement, it's most likely you're wrong. Once again, give me a scan.


Dude, it was in the radius of the explosion. What you are asking for is IMPOSSIBLE to show. It is a completely unreasonable demand. Prove to me that Naruto actually stopped Infinite Tsukuyomi and wasn't actually caught and just living a dream. You can't. There is no Majin Buu getiing destroyed by final explosion type panel. But it IS in the center of an explosion, and it IS no longer there and doesn't return Hashirama remakes one during SS.



X III said:


> I said this before I was aware of the base Obito feat. I retract it, although it doesn't matter since Obito only managed that by catching Madara off guard and getting a cheap shot. The notion Nagato does anything against Madara is still laughable.


The point is a weaker person did somethign to a stronger person. Asura path is surely stronger than dying Obito. and Madara is surely weaker than JJ madara. So how is it that he couldnt rip him apart?



X III said:


> You're the one misinterpreting it lol. If something is made obvious, I take the obvious interpretation.


Tell me what some other roars mean then, is he commenting on other fine fox booty? Maybe how he has to shit really bad? Come on, tell me some other roars.



X III said:


> If he was able to restrain him, then he is to a degree on his level physically otherwise Naruto would've broken free easily.


hahaha, Ok, Preta tosses rhinos now.


X III said:


> From the FRS. And he was still hurt.
> 
> Point isn't that FRS did crazy damage or anything.


He was stunned. hurt is too much. He literally only stumbled.


X III said:


> Then where was it, lol.


Bro, you showed 1 percent of the fucking sky and are asking me where SS is....Are you kidding me right now?


X III said:


> Obviously the Bijuu are different when they're in Chakra Avatar state though. It's made apparent.


Not really. At the end of the day, they are still just solid chakra.


X III said:


> Yes, considering it ripped off Susano'o. The Juubi did damage to Kurama, and Kurama regened.
> 
> Poison or Deity Gates is still win via incapacitation.


SS does NOT compare to a Juubidama. If a juubidama didnt even pierce through the Kyuubis tails, SS isnt scratching the full kyuui

Deity gates is a sealing jutsu, ok, and?
Poison? What poison? and what poison is working on Kurama?


X III said:


> You're not proving anything wrong, dude.
> 
> We literally just had an argument about different damage types, which you forgot within a second of it after it finished up. Lol


You say im not proving anything but you concede on like 5 points in this 1 fuckin post.


X III said:


> Literally still makes no sense no matter how you put it.
> 
> Adult Naruto could get saved by Boruto. Doesn't mean Boruto is stronger.



Are you seriously disregarding CONTEXT?


X III said:


> This is fiction. This armor is living.
> 
> His Susano'o needed amps to fight alongside Naruto's amped (by SM) Kurama Avatar.
> 
> ...


So sasuke and naruto were NOT equal, yet they fought together.



X III said:


> He was marvelling at his Chakra reserves. Naruto literally gives him a Chakra amp to hlep him keep up.


He literally cucks to BM naruto right before that as well.
Link removed

KCM and EMS are what are comparable. As implied.
Link removed


I mean really, Bro, do you REALLY think that EMS sasuke is capable of contending with the TBB that BM naruto used to block the combo TBB?



X III said:


> You're the one who brought the example up.


Which you then incorrectly use



X III said:


> And yet he had the same mindset as VOTE1, where he said he'd break every bone in Sasuke's bodyt o bring him back. They both also lost their arms. Lack of KI isn't a huge issue in this battle, especially when they're using giant megazords and are forced into using their strongest attacks no matter what to defend themselves.


And in the VOTE1 fight, he could have beaten sasuke but instead tries to prove him wrong.
Lack of KI does matter when Naruto can pepper spray Bijuu dama but doesnt.


X III said:


> What stops Oro from surviving any of his attacks bar RDS?


A Kunai through the fuckin skull.



X III said:


> Even if this were true, Mei would be a sole outlier out of 5.


I disagree. Oonoki should have much trouble against Gaara or Tsunade just because of the style match up.



X III said:


> At that time. Where the difference was made clear. If not in that fight, then 2 chapters later where Sasuke punks 2 Chunin where Naruto was scared shitless.


and we are shown clearly that BM naruto is leagues ahead of EMS sasuke, The last 50 chapters explain that clearly. Yet even when Naruto stops FIVE TBB ,sasukes susano is equal.



X III said:


> Which is irrelevant towards the fact that both Naruto AND Sakura contributed towards the bell test. Neither of them is stomping the other at that time.


haha, you are so right, yet Naruto wasnt even using KN0, 1, 2 or 3 which he can contol in training. So Naruto was holding back.



X III said:


> And yet lesser Bijuu lost to weaker attacks. We're getting to areas where we've already been lol.


Do you not realize that Jinchuriki are stronger, and more durable?


X III said:


> Databook context is clear. You're the one in denial, bro. Sealing isn't mentioned. Mokujin's physical strength, offense, and defense is literally mentioned on the same page. If Mokujin was foder compared to Kurama, none of this shit would be mentioned. It'd solely be talking about suppression/sealing.


Oh wait, thats what the MANGA shows Hashirami and Madara doing to kyuuubi, suppression, HOW FUNNY. You know what else is funny, this equal power you speak of has never been shown. 


X III said:


> The entire point is size doesn't matter for a Susano'o.


lol ok. Quantify the power difference for me then.



X III said:


> It's not shown, lol. Katsuyu nearly died by having contact with KN6-8 Naruto. All of which are lesser versions of 50% Kurama, who's < 100% Kurama, who's = PS and Mokujin.


Dude. first off. nearly died after having 400 Times the regular exposure is insane. You are being absolutely ridiculous. If a sannin level person dies from momentary contact and Katsuyu doesn't die after the same amount of time, she survives lethal doses of KN chakra with no difficulty. Can you drink a glass of water? Yes. no diff? Yes? Can you drink one trillion gallons of water? No. Doe that mean you cant drink 1 glass? no. Can katsuyu survive momentary contact with KN chakra? yes. Can Orochimaru? No. Can Katsuyu survive 2x as long? yes. can she survive 4x as long? Yes. Can she survive 400 times as long? Yes. So she is fucking durable

And the level of false equivilence here is fuckin stupid. People dont die from contact with regular kyuubi. And even IF kyuubi was completely equal to mokujin, that doesnt mean people die from contact with Mokujin.

And KN8>50% kurama.



X III said:


> Which you're guilty of doing a lot btw.
> 
> Anyway, it does matter because Tsunade and a fodder ANBU survived that attack, even if on the edge. The rubble was still pushed towards her, so she survived the attack to a degree.


I ain't guilty of shit.

And they survived a FRACTION of the attack. So small that they arent even in the area to bust buildings completely only fracture them. not impressive.




X III said:


> This is, btw, ignoring the clear panel which shows Tsunade and that fodder  at the center of the village. So she was actually closer to the middle than we thought.


HA. Tsunade was literally jumping from the hokage mansion. she maybe moved a few hundred yards at most.



X III said:


> To get away from Naruto? The body's never shown disintegrating. And the fact he could punch Naruto without that happening should be proof of the contrary.
> 
> Kusanagi touched KN4's skin for a while with no burns either, so it's relaly not too impressive.


You can touch a hot pan or touch acid really fast and not get hurt. Hold it like Orochimaru did, you will get hurt.

And Orochimaru was disintegrating, why the fuck else would he use his most chakra taxing jutsu? He could have got away from Naruto bu jumping. Much faster so no, you are dead wrong.

Did you just say a metal sword didnt get burned?



X III said:


> She flat out disagrees with you tho.
> 
> And tiny or not, she has the same durability as the rest of herself, because she's the same thing. You were literally saying a few posts ago that the same material means the durability is the same. So you should agree with me here.


I already explained why this is stupid, but to make sure you get it. Katsuyus durability to KN chakra>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Orochimaru.



X III said:


> Because he LITERALLY fucking stops fighting, dude. This doesn't take too much intelligence to figure out. An immortal infinitely regenerating zombie not using his ULTIMATE JUTSU should be iffy enough. Additionally, we have the fact that he's flat out sitting all chill next time he's on screen and not going back towards the fight. If he was in a fighting mood, he would've done that. Furthermore, this is flat out justified because his goal of reviving the Juubi was already being completed. He no longer needed the Nine Tails or Eight Tails. So literally everything points towards me being right. I await your concession.


Concede? Really. When Madara says these two things?
Link removed
Link removed
You literally such a fuckin liar. Madara himself said he will try than after said he WAS trying. Him sitting down is after it was too late. so he is like, well shit...

As you said, "This doesn't take too much intelligence to figure out."



X III said:


> Not what I meant. You have to tell me how Kisame having greater durability than a Chakra Construct hyped up for durability being used by the main villain makes any sense.


Because Kisame is durable. Is madara the fastest? no. The most durable? no. The most hax? no. the most chakra? no. So it falls right in line.



X III said:


> Pretty much what I meant. Sorry for bad worthing on my part.


alrighty. Still tough, they cant overpower the total attack.


X III said:


> You literally opposed it and compared Ribcage to PS.


No I didn't. My point was, IIRC, about acid or something like that, it will just take longer to go through cause there is more material.



X III said:


> Then why bring it up?


At this point i don't actually remember even saying his scythe was PS sword level,gonna have to show me the context here.


X III said:


> Kyubi's roar isn't an explosive attack.


lol an explosion is a shockwave. kyuubis roar is a shockwave. so it literally is.



X III said:


> "I acknowledge the fact the Gedo dealt with something that the Juubi had difficulty with."
> "Instead of conceding, I'll make shit up that SOMEHOW points towards the Gedo being able to deal with an attack the Juubi had difficulty with, because that makes TOTAL sense."


How did i make that up? If naruto makes 10 clones, if they put all their chakra into 1 rasengan it would be individually smaller than a naruto who only split himself in to 4 pieces. thats common sense. But, regardless. IT HAPPENED. 


X III said:


> "I acknowledge the fact Nagato had to get pierced by Chakra Rods to control the Mazo."
> "Instead of conceding, I will make some random head canon fanfic about the Gedo Mazo which is not grounded at all by the Manga so that Nagato can now use the Gedo Mazo easier."


what are you even talking about? You dont need to be pierced to control the mazo. You just need to give chakra to the mazo. That is fact. Obito, Zetsu, Kisame were able to use the phantom dragon from the fingers of the mazo, where they stand to give chakra. Nagato wasn't even there. So you are wrong. you have to be in contact with the Mazo. This is fact. But to summon and control it you do not need to do that.



X III said:


> "I acknowledge the fact that lesser Tailed Beasts were sliced by attacks weaker than PS slash."
> "Instead of conceding, I'll start talking about their regeneration too and I will hype up these weapons (aka Hidan's scythe and Gamabunta's sword) even though it's worthless doing that in front of PS slash."


i dont believe i hyped gama sword or hidans sword vs PS sword.



X III said:


> "I'll acknowledge the fact that SM Naruto survived ST practically unscathed. I will also acknowledge Hashi/Madara have greater durability. However, I will still push the idea that somehow a normal ST can deal major damage to Hashirama/Madara and their constructs because it could push 3 Boss Summons, one of which momentarily stunned Kurama."


 Greater durability? I doubt it. a normal st will not damage hashirama or madara. a big one will. a normal one would hurt them if he hit them into the ground.

Tell me what is wrong with this. Big ST>>>>>>>Gamabunta. Gamabuntas weight>Kyuubi for a short time. Therefore, Big ST knocks kyuubi the fuck away. Hurts him? probably a bit. Enough to beat him? no. But better than what PS could do? oh yeah.



X III said:


> "I acknowledge the fact that 50% KN6 could resisst ST, but I will keep pushing the notion that ST will deal great damage because it worked on Gamabunta who could stun Kurama for a bit. This doesn't at all imply that either my reasoning is off or that KN6 > Kurama. Not at all."


 KN6 did resist ST. Gamabunta did get knocked away. Gamabunta did hold kyuubi for a moment. how does that mean Kyuubi doesnt get knocked away by ST????



X III said:


> "Katsuyu admitted she nearly died? Cool. Now I'll start misinterpreting you and comparing Katsuyu to Orochimaru and how she was with KN6 l, despite her statement having nothing to do with that."


Bruh, you are being retarded here. If you really think Katsuyu almost dying when she was hit with WAY BEYOND the lethal limit means she is less durable than someone like oro who died from a second or 2 of contact.



X III said:


> "I changed my stance on Naruto vs Kurama being impressive? No."


I have never, ever, changed my stance on that. I said he tossed him around, or beat the fuck out of him. that is true, i also said FRS simply stunned kyuubi. That is not a contradiction.



X III said:


> "Databook says Mokujin = Kurama? Mentions offense, defense, and physical attacks? No mention of suppression. NO, NO. IT MUST BE SUPPRESSION."
> 
> ^
> What's funny about this is you actually contradicted it by saying suppression/sealing doesn't count as power:


Listen, i am saying to the manga, suppression is power. BUT, that does not mean you can appliy Kyuubis power to them because they dont use the same kind of power to "equal" him. Such a simple concept.



X III said:


> Databook wouldn't have said they were equal in strength if suppression/sealing wasn't counted as power.
> 
> There are probably more, but those are some major ones.


There aren't any. thats the best part.


X III said:


> Or the Juubi could have broken the barrier with his presence, lol.
> 
> What did you say? "This is fiction"


What are you talkiiiing about!? If juubi WAS in the TINY cylinder he would have been crushed down. He would have broken out, obviously, but since it wasnt broken, he wasnt transformed yet.



X III said:


> Tsunade using her whole seal is explained. She has to spread her Chakra throughout the entire village to give every single person some protection. Enough protection to help them with that atttack.
> 
> That feat only goes to show how powerful the Tailed Beasts are.
> 
> As I said, Katsuyu could barely survive inside 50% KN6-KN8, which are < 100% Kurama = Mokujin/PS.


you literally explained what i said. I dont even see what you were trying to say.



X III said:


> That's not a lifting feat. SM Naruto could take a giant rhino and hurl it up to the sky.


Since ST is not a punch, its a push, it would be a "lifting" feat.



X III said:


> No, because you literally fucking changed your stance dude. You went from saying one isn't impressive to saying it is later on.


What did i say was impressive? SM naruto punking on Kyuubi. What did i say was unimpressive? FRS not hurting kyuubi. get it fuckin right, seriously.


X III said:


> You can't have SM Naruto be far stronger than somebody and have his strnogest Jutsu do no damage. Blatant contradictino.


Really? Hashiramas strongest attack literally didn't damage Madara at all. PS wasnt even completely destroyed. yet he is stronger.

Also, I don't believe I said SM was stronger than Kyuubi, I said he beat him up.


X III said:


> Maybe Kishi added that there to overdramatize it? It doesn't explain why Minato says he would come out when Naruto has KN8.
> 
> And even then, how does this help your fight? It's already explained that the KNs are Kurama acting through Naruto. There's no Jin + Bijuu cooperation, so it's pretty much completely Kurama.


Yes, but KN9 was still coming out when the seal hadn't even been touched. Minato does come out when KN8 is activated, but before he stops naruto KN9 is there. doesnt mean the kyuubi is free. The seal wasn't broken.




X III said:


> So they literally changed a little bit to the left. Kewl. Not like you contradicted yourself from earlier saying they were across the village.


A little bit? are you serious? A few meters vs like 7 kilometers is a little bit???????

It isn't a contradiction at all. They are under the hokage mountain and the TBB has an epicenter FAR away from that, Even its closest point is FAR away from them. You could ONLY say i was being overdramatic. but bruh, thats better than saying a few fucking meters wtf.



X III said:


> What you're praising as perspective is literally inconsistencies from Kishimoto, dude. Just face it.


You are straight up denying logic here bro.



X III said:


> Stupid opinoin? Literally everyone on this section thinks you have trash opinions. Please don't even start.


Really? huh weird. I get negged by like 2 people consistently. thats it, otherwise, even though i pretty much only address controversial topics i still have positive rep and far more likes and agres than dislikes and disagrees. So you are straight up wrong. either way, i have won every single debate against you and anyone else. You have conceded so many fuckin points to me that im almost convinced that you are slowing becoming me.



X III said:


> Literally, even if you do end up proving me wrong, at least I know how to concede. You may wanna learn that, or start applying it.


Learn to concede? Hahaha. I have repeatedly been PRAISED for conceding things, you dont know shit. I'll concede when your argument is sound and based off the manga, not off the opinion of your classroom lunch group.


X III said:


> Even though it collapsed and he was tired af. Nice lol. "Trash opinions" you were saying?


after. a. fucking. miniwar.



X III said:


> Apparently pushing Kurama out of a village shits on my argument. Even though you were earlier saying FRS did ntohing to Kurama.


The point is a FEW ninja pushes PS equal out of konoha. How could they not AT LEAST do the same?



X III said:


> Hiashi gets shat on.


solo, yes. in a group of shinobi who can fuck up susano, no.


X III said:


> Everybody in the Leaf gets shat on if the fodder Paths were stomping them.


You see, this is why you are wrong. That is a false statement because it implies Madara con do better than pain. He sure as shit cant. and didnt.



X III said:


> Also I'm pretty sure the Uchiha are dead.


yeah?



X III said:


> I'm also pretty sure the Hyuga (main branch) were gone during the Pain fight, iIRC.


based on what? Hinata and another hyuuga are literally shown.


X III said:


> He didn't have to suicide lol. He did it to exploit ET.


ok, he still did, he would have to have done the jutsu in his PS to live.


X III said:


> Anyway, Madara shits on Konoha. This is universally agreed on. Facts don't care about your feelings.


Universally agreed on by people who use his hype in the story to then counter in story facts. fuckin. retarded.



X III said:


> No, I'm not. Quite obvious what I meant.
> 
> Pain doesn't have to pay attention, because he's facing fodder.
> 
> Madara does have to pay attention to Ohnoki, Naruto, and Gaara. Because they're actual threats.


Pain fought more than just fodder.

Madara was barely paying attention.



X III said:


> Sitting down. Otherwise we'd see him running towards the battlefield.


 as i said earlier, sitting down after it was too late.



X III said:


> Which doesn't matter. We're talking about strongest attacks. Nagato used it.


Yes, yes it does matter. Are you saying that if they survive CT they can survive human paths soul suck?



X III said:


> Can't control it without rods. Unless I follow your bs headcanon that is.


The Mazo was summoned by him and controlled by him before the rods were in place. read the manga.

Also, Madara says, straight up, the only requirement to control the mazo is to have senju and uchiha dna, thats it! That's why obito could use the mazo before he had Rinnegan.



X III said:


> Contradiction, nevertheless. Considering you said Nagato's performance was better. I mean, Preta Path could be countered as a counter for V2 Cloaks.


You actually have a minor point here. The problem is, VotE Madara cant do that, 2, Preta is a counter to Chakra period, so whatever Naruto hits him with in BM it is getting absorbed.



X III said:


> This talks strictly about life force, though it doesn't matter because Nagato surviving is only an implication. Databook says anybody who dies dies.Nagato isn't listed as an exception.
> 
> "Gedou Rinnei Tensei no Jutsu
> 
> ...


Cool thing that the manga is the final deciding factor.


X III said:


> Madara literally states he's going to teach him the Rikudou no Jutsu.


And that literally means nothing as Obito doesn't even have eyes to use the jutsu. Might as well teach a rock the jutsu. Of all the jutsu madara taught him, Obito literally uses 1 path, Izanagi, and that's it. He doesn't even say that he could use them, neither madara nor obito even had time to use the rinnegan to master it. And it shows. Obito shows less knowledge of it than kabuto for fuck sake. Madara intended Obito to activate a Rinnegan on his own. 



X III said:


> Kakashi and Guy were the ones who theorized.
> 
> He clearly knows how to. He does it with Madara..


 and neither of them made any sense. Shinra tensei is a useful additive to ANY ninja. It is a get out of jail card. no logic here.



X III said:


> Obito showed Outer Path, ,  levitation. No reason to believe he can't use the rest, especially when he has a shit ton of statements saying he can.


Outer path, yes.
Deva, HAHAHAHAHA, he jumped in the air and fired a move wtf are you talking about?
Preta.....what? How is that preta path? So Nagato could do that to Madara?



X III said:


> Barely used the Bijuu up until Naruto used BM.
> 
> Before that, he was sticking to V2 and 2 BM transformations, no TBBs.


He was struggling to use them. He even has to restrain one. That isnt taking it easy.


X III said:


> This is such an NLF.
> 
> Tbb shits on V2.


HAHHAHAHA WRONG. So Bee can only fire 3 TBB before he is 100 percent out of chakra? Cause Bee can only make at most 3 V2 cloaks. This is shown in the kisame fight. A v2 cloak is literally over 100 times the chakra a TBB.



X III said:


> No, they would've analyzed and countered shared vision like Itachi lol.


Itachi was the only one capable of that. His shurikenjutsu is top notch. Gai and kakashi are nowhere near as fast either.



X III said:


> Based on what is the head somehow better than the stomach?


Based on using it on the head INSTANTLY KILLING THEM. Thats why Obito didnt use it when he was talking to Kabuto. Thats why Shizune dies when she has it used on her. Once the head is hit, you learn what they know, they become a fucking drooling vegetable and in exchange they die.



X III said:


> What the fuck even is this argument? They're called the strongest because they're the last remaining. Common fucking sense. "Please tell me this is the only trash opinion you have."
> 
> New info replaces outdated info. Common sense. Please use your head a little and overcome your bias.


Says the guy i have corrected over 20 times in 1 discussion.


Also, for your information. There is a counter translation that says The greatest evils, not strongest.


X III said:


> He would say Madara, lol. That's the reason Madara got a fuckin reputation.


Madara has a rep because he was a public figure. Nagata was not. are you gonna keep pretending that isnt true? People would probably hype Kakahi more than itachi because not many people fucking know itachi. But to not know a hokage is dumb.



X III said:


> Except Madara's also compared to Hagoromo, lol. So is . In fact, that same panel says nobody who is alive today is as strnog as Hashirama. But I know that you'll twist it around to some stupid shit like "obviously!!! nagato isn't alive today!"


Hashirama is not directly compared to Hagoromo like Nagato and Madara.

And good job, you countered your point. How is it stupid if it is true. there was no one alive that was stronger. He didnt say there has never been someone stronger since hashirama died. To use your BS tactics, He would have said he that no one since hashirama died is stronger than him if it was true.



X III said:


> Guess whose eyes are borrowed? Nagato's.


Guess what that matters to, LIMBO. Guess what else, NOTHING. Kakashi has FAR less experience with Kamui than Obito and he can use Kamui just as well. So you are fucking wrong.



X III said:


> He got information from Black Zetsu about practically everything that happened.


Not at that point, Madara literally assaults obito with a million questions when he arrives. He doesnt even see black zetsu till WAY later.



X III said:


> He's stronger overall because he has new abilities.
> 
> Alive counterparts are physically superior. As Tobirama said, Edos were revived a little weaker than their alive states.


I dont really disagree so how was i wrong?



X III said:


> I'd still take majority over you lol.
> 
> Majority are right most of the time, especially when arguing about a Manga that ended years ago.


Yet i still corrected many of your "Majority" opinions. Huh, how funny.



X III said:


> Yes, I am 100% confident. And yes, it's not biased. Think of it however you will. I don't care if you think I'm biased or not. But I know I'm not.


You got a funny way of showing it.



X III said:


> He used no clones. Moot point.
> 
> On top of that clones are inconsistent af.


Duh, im saying if Naruto wasnt spread out he COULD have used clones. and a rasenshuriken he could make with full chakra would be insane.


X III said:


> Yes, in power too.
> 
> BM transformation is for everything, otherwise there'd be no point. Bijuu Damas can be used as V2s.


Bijuudama can only be used by KN4+, no other used it and Bee legit when BM to use one then down to V2 to continue on.

BM barely enhances him at all. He still duked it out with Obito with nearly no difference in ability.



X III said:


> Woah, looks like a struck a nerve.
> 
> Anyway, the fact you had/have Pain listed as your favorite, even if it was 12 years ago, doesn't make you look very good by siding that up with your opinions.


You struck a nerve because of how fucking retarded this point is. Tell me your favorite character and i will tell you that any opinion you have on them is retarded. Besides, Pain is NOT nagato.


X III said:


> No, as I never stated Kakashi was unscathed from the ST.


Ok?


X III said:


> Yes, it does. Vs pian.


No, No. No. NO. The ONLY time it ever hits rubble IS vs pain. 1 time. Thats it.


X III said:


> I know they do, lol. But the slash made them look like fodder. An indirect swing had them getting tossed around like a ST.


If you know they do, why did you say they were beat by it? disingenuous.


X III said:


> KN states are literally stated to shorten his life and fatigue him.
> 
> Naruto literally fainted after Nagato was dealt with, for Kakashi to pick him.


That was an intensely stressful situation. Naruto also collapsed after Obito told him the worst bedtime story ever.


X III said:


> I'm not lying lol. I literally had it in the part where you quoted.
> 
> Anyway, former makes more sense. Since Pain paths are never implied to be some durable beasts, bar the strongest ones. One of them got done in by a Rasengan from Konohamaru.


Done in, you mean knocked out? It was still alive. Deva actual died from a rasengan. and yes they are durable. Asura took a Raikiri and a Choza punch and was still alive.
Human catches a punch no problem from sage mode and only fucks up his eyes from a sage kick. Deva gets minor burns from a Bijuudama. the rest are killed from sage rasengans or sage jutsu.



X III said:


> What? Bold makes no sense.
> 
> Obito held himself at a higher light than Nagato, so he thought he was capable as second Rikudou.


I dont even know WHAT you are talking about. Obito is not ANY rikudo. Only Hagoromo, Madara and Nagato are considered rikudou.



X III said:


> Wood Dragons could have chewed him up.


No.



X III said:


> Madara also ate it like lunch. If anything, easier than Pain. Pain also had trouble with a Katon.


Huh? Madara complains. Pain no diffed it.



X III said:


> Literally based on what can those three not use 5 Paths at the same time? Lack of showings doesn't mean they can't lol.


Lack of shows means you cant say they acn.


X III said:


> I never said Nagato can't use all the Paths, I said his efficiency is worse. Which it is, because the Rinnegan abilities depend on the caster's own power.And original owners are the best.


Bullshit, He has the best preta feat, and the ONLY feat for the majority of the rest!



X III said:


> So why did Nagato have to give it his own?


Because.......Phantom dragon requires lots of chakra....



X III said:


> In order to seal the Bijuu.
> 
> They were also able to do it without getting stabbed by rods lol


because......they gave chakra while on his fingers......please read the manga again.


X III said:


> Could it be that the Mazo had just lost those Bijuu and now only has its own "life force"? No way. I must make an argument that favors Nagato immediately! No matter how ridiculous it is!


Could it be the mazo DOES have its own life force and you literally skipped that chapter.



X III said:


> Could it be that that makes no sense? Because operating the Mazo takes Chakra regardless?


That in the same way. Controlling the Mazo takes ONLY senju=uchiha dna. Madaras words.



X III said:


> Yes, they do.


Not from anything we have seen. Madara just activates the jutsu, he doesnt give the mazo any chakra.


X III said:


> Ik. Just saying that you exaggerated here.


I dont think i exaggerated but ok.



X III said:


> What I meant by "low end" wasn't for a calc. You already know I'm not about that. Low end was referring to that "hole in the ground" in addition to you saying that he died to fodder.


So dont call it a low end, call it a down play.

To address that assuming you only ever said downplay, i repeat. it depends on who he is matched up against. Against konohamaru, i say its great, if its against nagato i say its trash..

And guess what, Hashirama died in a war. to no one we know. Guess who else died to fodder, A3. But a huge group. Its hard to fight large armies, bro.



X III said:


> He literally wasn't given enough time to regenerate for Lariat because he healed it with Gakido. So I don't even know how you reached the conclusion he tanked that lol.


 The instant Sasuke and Kisame were hit they were empty chest cavities. why would the damage occur AFTER separation.



X III said:


> Counter Preta.


Only upon contact. not after.


X III said:


> It's nothing interesting. Just calling you out on your bs once again.


"Nothing interesting" you concede on several points.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Like 1


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## X III (Mar 10, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Dude, it was in the radius of the explosion. What you are asking for is IMPOSSIBLE to show. It is a completely unreasonable demand. Prove to me that Naruto actually stopped Infinite Tsukuyomi and wasn't actually caught and just living a dream. You can't. There is no Majin Buu getiing destroyed by final explosion type panel. But it IS in the center of an explosion, and it IS no longer there and doesn't return Hashirama remakes one during SS.
> 
> The point is a weaker person did somethign to a stronger person. Asura path is surely stronger than dying Obito. and Madara is surely weaker than JJ madara. So how is it that he couldnt rip him apart?
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I’ll be taking a short break from here. I’ll respond to this and the Hidan thread in some days most likely. Cheers


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 10, 2019)

@kokodeshide 

Hope you not running away again, I reallly want to see your next convoluted response on how you think Nagato is beating Madatra lol


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 11, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> the rest of your post is still as dishonest as usual, was really hoping you would come through bruh, but lately I just can't seem to get through to ya bruh no matter how many facts I throw at you.


Facts? You mean you repeating useless pieces of information that dont mean shit?


ThirdRidoku said:


> Troll harder dude. That last post of yours was Darkscion tier lying, very dissapointing. I showed you all the evidence. I showed you the databook entry prior too, and you literally didn't even read my response. What a waste of time. I honestly believe you didn't read it through. And the manga never stated that Susbtitution was Body Flicker either, so yeah, gtfo. Body Flicker is depicted by leaves, smoke, swirling movement lines, regular movement lines fire, even in ink in some cases. Still follows the laws of motion.


And your last post was ThirdRidoku tier pointless.
You didnt show evidence it was S/T jutsu, It is not listed as one yet you say it is.

Substitution is a Chakra assisted movement just like Shunshin, try harder.




ThirdRidoku said:


> When V2 Ayy uses his top speed, you know it because whatever he gets slammed into gets fucked up. Meanwhile Nagato's arm barely moved despite Itachi jumping so fast into the air that Killer Bee couldn't trace his speed. according to your logic with nagato's arm barely moving. I guess that speed is why a shadow clone was left behind in his previous position too rofl.


 Are you legitimately mentally challenged? Do you not realize that he can MOVE DOWN THEN FORWARD THEN UP.?



ThirdRidoku said:


> And yeah bro, keep trolling. Jiraiya clearly stated that the NINE Akatsuki members we know today, the 9 s rank criminals, Itachi, Kisame, Kakazu, Hidan, Deidara, Sasori, Zetsu, Pain, and Konan (minus Orochimaru) were the ones who used to band together, but had only recently started moving as pairs after orochimaru left.
> 
> 
> 
> we KNOW that after orochimaru left, Deidara joined and became Sasori's partner. Deidara was recruited to replace Orochimaru. Itachi, Kisame, and Sasori were all sent to recruit Deidara. The timeline is obviously fucked up anyway because Itachi would have to be younger than 11 when he joined the Akatsuki, which we know isn't true. But the point is there was a time when they moved together, period.


Here, this is where we will see if you are even worth time to debate or if you are just a lying Itachi dickrider.

Link removed
Anime said 10 years, but the manga says 7. Either way, who do you believe, the AKATSUKI THEMSELVES, or Jiraiyas second hand words? Yeah, probably the Akatsuki. So all that bullshit you said, all that fluff, all that shit talk is proved wrong right here, so fuck you. I'll wait for your concession.


ThirdRidoku said:


> So now we are speculating? The burden of proof is on YOU. You made the claim that that Nagato has better firepower based on feats


And i showed you.



ThirdRidoku said:


> but you subtly admitted you don't know the full length of the valley. As far as I know, there isn't a scale for the Konoha maps, but here is something:
> 
> Based on this scaling, if we lowball the valley and only assume it only covers the length of the border specifically shared by the Land of Fire and Land of sound, it's already 6,788 KM long. We don't even know that much. All we know is that the Valley is a BORDER that covers at minimum the width of the land of sound. So still possibly a low end feat. Redoing my previous calc:
> 6,788,000 m x 1,000,000 x 100m x 100 x 69 j/cm^3 = 4.68372 × 10e18 J LARGE MOUNTAIN. And this is still a low end because it doesn't factor in PERFECT SUSANO'O. Don't you get it? The guy REDRAWS THE WORLD MAPS. The battle was stated to devastate the earth so much that bros considered Hashi to be comparable to the Sage of Six paths, he was a FAIRY TALE. I don't care what you say. It's still a low end because : We don't know the full length of the valley, hashi wasn't aiming to create the valley, he did it by circumstance; the explosion of the hands colliding with susano'o created the valley. if the hands actually hit the ground then there would be way more damage. His attack WAS WEAKENED by the bijuu dama.


So you are saying that Even when you BS the length of the valley of the end to roughly the distance san fransisco and new you your you still only get large mountain????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA CST is island level, bro, CT is FAR beyond that. You are straight up trolling me right now. Even if you doubled your value you dont get CST. So either fuckin way, you are straight up wrong.


ThirdRidoku said:


> > Base Hashi has more chakra than the frigging HALF OF KYUUBI + naruto. Madara by extension is also stronger than half of the kyuubi. Power and stamina are directly related, feel free to argue against like the whole manga bro. Jiraiya specifically tailored his training of naruto to fit with naruto's huge amount of dormant power lying inside of him. The ability to spam shadow clones, make giant ass rasengans, the ability to enter sage mode, incredible physical strength and durability, the list goes on. It's all strongly correlated.


Power and stamina are not related. Kakashi has SHIT stamina, yet considered one of the strongest Ninja. Gaara has way more staminat than Gai, Gai bitch slapped his sand away with no effort. Naruto has way more chakra than neji in part one, They were still roughly equal.Itachi has less stamina than a fuck ton of people, so he is less powerful now? Hiruzen had next to no stamina, is he weak now? feel free to argue against the manga...



ThirdRidoku said:


> > That same half of Kyuubi's sheer physical strength overpowered passive chibaku tensei gravity pull which was still required to keep a mini moon suspended in the sky. Perfect Susano'o and mokujin also crawl out of CST with shit diff.


Wrong, a Jinchuriki did that, MUCH different. obvious in the manga.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Hashirama and Madara are somewhere in between half of kyuubi and full kyuubi, and even then, Hashirama is not as far away as you like to claim. After figthing for over 16 hours, the guy still had enough chakra to summon a construct big enough to make full kurama look tiny. Kurama has better overall firepower,


Ok?



ThirdRidoku said:


> But SS's sheer size and mass and physical strength allowed it to CASUALLY grab Kurama, make it wince in pain, and hold it in place before suppressing it.


Sure, except it wasnt hurt or damaged at all. And, What does that mean hi could do against a CST?



ThirdRidoku said:


> SS breaks out of Chibaku tensei with absolutely shit diff, so your wank for CBT is irrelevant lmao.


Bruh, the SS gets ripped apart BY CT. Wank for a 55 teraton atack, hahaha.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato literally has to bleed to make two techniques capable of competing with the founders,


No, he has to bleed to absolutely demolish them.




ThirdRidoku said:


> >Kisame is at best gyuki level in terms of raw chakra and power. And Nagato admitted that Kisame had more chakra than him.


Which means what?


ThirdRidoku said:


> >Hashi shit diff'ed edo tensei control via power. while nagato on the other hand got shit diff'd by edo tensei.


Which means absolutely nothing. Nagato survived getting impaled by rods, Hashirama was shit diffed by them. Also pointless.


ThirdRidoku said:


> > EMS Madara is capable of country level attacks based on his weakened Edo form summoning giant meteors, which created tremors as far as the shinobi alliance headquarters.


not a country level attack at all, the only calc that had the attack at country level presumed it was flying at hypersonic speeds.



ThirdRidoku said:


> > Madara learned the SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE AS AN OLD MAN, more proof of his insane chakra levels. he said so ON PANEL. The Six paths technique is clearly stated to include all six paths plus the 7th path. Showed Preta, Bansho Tenin and Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, as well as Outer Path. Prove that he didn't use Shinra Tensei . What other technique does he have that can blow Gaara's sand and Mei's water dragon away, because we know he didn't absorb it.
> So troll harder bro.


Troll harder? Prove he used the paths or shut the fuck up. I'll wait, don't run now.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Yes there would. Each of those buddha hands are big enough to easily grab Full Kurama. Nagato and his tiny ass preta barrier don't have enough surface area or area of affect. He will get blinded right away. The hands will also be hitting all the terrain all around him. 50 hands or so pile up on his barrier. 500 hit the terrain around Nagato. then the other 450 obliterate the hands piled up on his barrier and the aggregrate of all those shockwaves eventually smash Nagato to bits.


None of those shockwaves damage Nagato whatsoever. and at any point Nagato could swithc the a CST and end the day.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 11, 2019)

X III said:


> I’ll be taking a short break from here. I’ll respond to this and the Hidan thread in some days most likely. Cheers



I will be ready...


ThirdRidoku said:


> @kokodeshide
> 
> Hope you not running away again, I reallly want to see your next convoluted response on how you think Nagato is beating Madatra lol


Bruh, you are light work, I sure as shit dont run away from light work.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 11, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> You didnt show evidence it was S/T jutsu, It is not listed as one yet you say it is.
> 
> Substitution is a Chakra assisted movement just like Shunshin, try harder.


 Chakra assisted movement that allows one to teleport. You have improved but still got a ways to go. Even if it isn't a S/t ninjutsu, it still allows the user to transcend the limits of normal movement. I showed you evidence that it didn't function like Body Flicker. Body Flicker is high speed movement, troll harder. when people use substitution in this manga, they disappear and move somewhere else and summon another object to their previous location during the switch. Sasuke's explanation isn't sufficient because clones and logs have been summoned when there were none nearby. Show me one time Body Flicker alllowed a restrained target to escape. Humor me on why we can clearly see Ayy turning into streaks of lightning or in other cases clearly has movement lines on himself when he is confirmed to be using Body Flicker lmao.



kokodeshide said:


> Are you legitimately mentally challenged? Do you not realize that he can MOVE DOWN THEN FORWARD THEN UP.?


Are you? WHERE ARE THE MOVEMENT LINES FOR ITACHI. We have seen what Itachi's body flicker looks like here:

*Spoiler*: _Itachi's MOVEMENT LINES_ 










The smokescreen we see against Nagato is much more akin to the one you see when clones or summons are released. The smokescreen was in the EXACT same location where Itachi was previously standing, don't lie to me bro. There was no physical movement for Itachi, only converging lines drawing attention to Nagato. The smokescreen is too small to be a Body Flicker smokescreen, and Killer Bee would have been able to see him , but he didn't. We don't see movement lines  where they should be when he feinted the Konoha jounin, not when he feinted EMS Sasuke and Kabuto, not ever.  Keep up the trolling/greasiness bro.





kokodeshide said:


> Here, this is where we will see if you are even worth time to debate or if you are just a lying Itachi dickrider.
> 
> Link removed
> Anime said 10 years, but the manga says 7. Either way, who do you believe, the AKATSUKI THEMSELVES, or Jiraiyas second hand words? Yeah, probably the Akatsuki. So all that bullshit you said, all that fluff, all that shit talk is proved wrong right here, so fuck you. I'll wait for your concession.



What are you on? The Akatsuki met 7 years ago???? LMAO So Itachi who was 18 in part one joined the akatsuki when he was 11? The bro was running the Konoha ANBU at age 13, so how the fuk was he in the Akatsuki 7 years ago? Troll harder bro.
Jiraiya's intel is legit because he followed Orochimaru's movements and when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki, Jiraiya immediately noticed a change in the Akatsuki's movement patterns. Jiraiya knew enough to know there were nine members (Obito technically wasn't a member) and he knew that Itachi was among them, so his intel is legit. We know Oro left the Akatsuki because he got shit diff'd by Itachi when he tried to sneak up on him during Akatsuki downtime to steal his body.  Jiraiya was the dude who found Akatsuki headquarters in the Rain. His intel gathering is legit, so trollharder.
Kishimoto fuk'd up his continuity, so my interpretation is just as valid as yours.





kokodeshide said:


> So you are saying that Even when you BS the length of the valley of the end to roughly the distance san fransisco and new you your you still only get large mountain????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA CST is island level, bro, CT is FAR beyond that. You are straight up trolling me right now. Even if you doubled your value you dont get CST. So either fuckin way, you are straight up wrong.



Troll harder bro .You can't confirm the length of the valley so I am free to "BS" all I want. If you consider fair scaling BS be my guest. I was trying to be as restrictive as possible so I don't humiliate Nagato too much LMAO. Still ignore Perfect Susano'o tensile strength and toughness. Smells like a concession is in the air. PS is easily in the top 5 best defenses in this manga and Hashirama busted it. You also can't give me a calculation for it's toughness in Joules/cm^3 because you know the answer would humiliate Nagato LMAO. Still ignored the disadvantages Hashi had too. What a waste of time.




kokodeshide said:


> Power and stamina are not related. Kakashi has SHIT stamina, yet considered one of the strongest Ninja. Gaara has way more staminat than Gai, Gai bitch slapped his sand away with no effort. Naruto has way more chakra than neji in part one, They were still roughly equal.Itachi has less stamina than a fuck ton of people, so he is less powerful now? Hiruzen had next to no stamina, is he weak now? feel free to argue against the manga...



LMAO I KNEW you would say this shit. Too easy to predict at this point bruh. Troll harder. Karin was shitting her pants at V2 Ayy's bijuu levels of chakra and compared it directly to Full Gyuki. Chakra =stamina=mental+physical energy.  Kisame's physical strength is directly shown to be related to his jinchuriki level reserves. It's common sense. Chakra is proportional to both strength, endurance, and durability, which is why Kisame, Nagato, and Obito can tank attacks that would flatten or easily pierce almost anyone else. Speed is not as heavily correlated because the chakra control factor matters more for speed, but even in the case of increased chakra flow, if you have more chakra flowing you will gain more speed. Base Naruto, if he could open the 8 gates, would achieve better physical stats than rock lee.  Go back to the academy bro and learn a thing or two from Ebisu. The more chakra you have to mould for your jutsu, the stronger it becomes sufficient you have the required chakra control.  Making significantly more than 1 shadow clone splits your stamina and strength to dangerous levels as clearly stated by Kakashi and Guy and even The Third Hokage's Anbu on more than one occasion. Good for diversions, not so much for finishing power unless you have bijuu levels of chakra. Stamina is directly related to strength, but your judgement is clouded you can't even understand the context in which I discuss strength.  you are talking about strength in terms of who can beat who. I am talking about physical strength and jutsu strength. Even in old age Hiruzen still had enough chakra to make two clones and use death reaper Seal without immediately dying. Even chakra enhancement scales with stamina. Chakra control x stamina  determines your power output potential along with things like muscle mass and weight. The more energy you can transmit to your muscles the stronger the contractions the more power output you get.  Sakura and Tsunade are just outliers do to superhuman chakra control, they know how and when to precisely manipulate huge amounts of chakra in an instant as they punch and kick. IF the Raikage had their chakra control and combined it with his bijuu levels of chakra, he would blowing apart rib Cage Suano'o. But even Itachi's chakra control is amazing due to his genjutsu skill, his punches can hurt KCM Naruto. Might Guy doesn't rely purely on significant chakra augmentation. The guy physically trains equally or better than rock lee does. He built up tons of natural physical strength naturally through vigorous training and worked on his speed strength and durability and endurance. Of course he can blow away Gaara's sand lmao.   Itachi's stamina very clearly limits his strength. Look at his v4 Susano'o and Madara's V4 Susano'o. Same technique yet Madara's is way bigger and stronger due to his bigger chakra lmao.  I don't dickride ITachi, I simply give him the feats he has earned. The only reason I put his susano'o over Madara's is because he has absolute ethereal weapons that ignore enemy durability and power. If you took away Yata and Totsuka, Madara has an objectively superior Susano'o.




kokodeshide said:


> Wrong, a Jinchuriki did that, MUCH different. obvious in the manga.



Troll Harder bro. Kurama's power grows with each tail it sprouts. It was at 8 tails and still casually busted out with physical strength alone. Nagato increasing chibaku Tensei size would have just pissed Kurama off even more lmao. Bijuu dama good game. You wank Kn6 bijuu dama being unable to do anything to chibaku tensei yet Kn8 was busting out of that shit so it's irrelevant.
Gyuki was also with a perfect jin yet still noted that Kurama was in a different league LMAO. Hashi has more chakra than BM naruto, so troll harder. Madara scales to that level as well.




kokodeshide said:


> Sure, except it wasnt hurt or damaged at all. And, What does that mean hi could do against a CST?



ROFL. That's why it was crying out in pain when it was grabbed by ShinssuSenju right? It wasn't hurt because PS shielded it and I only ever said Kurama and SM Hashi were in a similiar weight class, Full Kurama is stronger and more durable but doesn't matter. Both  of them won't be taking any damage from CST. Kurama can root it's tails in the ground for traction and Hashirama has buddha hands for days and even more inertia than PS. CST pushes them back and Nagato is on cool down for the rest of the foreseeable match, GG.



kokodeshide said:


> ruh, the SS gets ripped apart BY CT. Wank for a 55 teraton atack, hahaha.



It's wank bro. Chibaku Tensei ain't ripping apart shit.  Shinsuusenju mercilessly busts out then rains down buddha hands on Nagato while is bleeding out of his nose and was forced to deactivate his other paths. All it would do is piss hashirama off dude lmao. You still can't give me a calc for the durability of PS. Good luck finding it.  Tsunade in her strongest form can only muster a crack on Madara's weakest susano'o variant. With Ayy+ ohnoki helping they shattered a huge part of it. V2/v3 Susano'o has been taken out a few times, but there is a huge gap between that and V4 Susano'o and then a stablizied Perfect Susano'o which rivals Kurama lmao.




kokodeshide said:


> not a country level attack at all, the only calc that had the attack at country level presumed it was flying at hypersonic speeds.



And it logically would be since it clearly came from outerspace.  11,000 meters per second is still nine times slower than the speed of a lightning leader at 98,348 meters per second which we know is something the reflex gods of Naruto can handle. Ohnoki being able to fly up and lighten it is believable. The attack's tremor was felt many kilometers away lmao. And he summoned those meteors without any kind of strain so he could have summoned more. We have seen edo tensei get tired when they use chakra taxing techniques so.... Yea Nagato still gets shit diff'd in stamina by Madara lmao.


kokodeshide said:


> Which means absolutely nothing. Nagato survived getting impaled by rods, Hashirama was shit diffed by them. Also pointless.


Lmao wtf? Hashirama got shit diff'd by  a MADARA 's rod control who would shit diff Nagato. Hashirama embarrased Nagato in chakra by breaking edo tensei control, period.


CST isn't doing shit to Hashirama or Madara, they have the means of protecting themselves. Tsunade survived it with injuries and healed the worst of it off but without help from Katsuyu and the woman just expended almost all her chakra protecting everyone else. CST just gets reflected back at Nagato bro lol. Keep up the wank bro.


Shockwaves which created a new biome thousands of kilometers long + aren't doing shit to Nagato? The wank is unreal lmao. Valleys are always designed to be longer than they are deep. Keep up the downplay bro. You are light work when it comes to Nagato.


I proved he can use the paths bro. he showed it on panel and more than one character said he can use all the paths. So troll harder.


----------



## Siskebabas (Mar 11, 2019)

I'll give to madara 6 times out of 10 extreme diff. Madara definetely loses some matches due his cocky nature. In those 4 scenarios he gets Bees treatment, gets pulled, restricted and soul absorbed, wont even come to perfect susanoo because other jutsus he has are literally fodder to Nagato. Its perfect susanoo which separates them.


----------



## X III (Mar 11, 2019)

Fuck it, I have a day off and there's ntohing to do.




kokodeshide said:


> Dude, it was in the radius of the explosion. What you are asking for is IMPOSSIBLE to show. It is a completely unreasonable demand. Prove to me that Naruto actually stopped Infinite Tsukuyomi and wasn't actually caught and just living a dream. You can't. There is no Majin Buu getiing destroyed by final explosion type panel. But it IS in the center of an explosion, and it IS no longer there and doesn't return Hashirama remakes one during SS.


Then we'll have to agree to disagree. My interpretation is that either it was withdrawn or it was still there where we couldn't see it. I choose that interpretation because it lines up with the DB. But you can believe what you want. 



kokodeshide said:


> The point is a weaker person did somethign to a stronger person. Asura path is surely stronger than dying Obito. and Madara is surely weaker than JJ madara. So how is it that he couldnt rip him apart?


Susano'o > Asura Path > Base Madar. I never implied Asura Path was weaker than base Madara.



kokodeshide said:


> Tell me what some other roars mean then, is he commenting on other fine fox booty? Maybe how he has to shit really bad? Come on, tell me some other roars.


The context for the roar is made apparent imo. If we can't agree, we agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> hahaha, Ok, Preta tosses rhinos now.


Different types of strength exist so no.



kokodeshide said:


> He was stunned. hurt is too much. He literally only stumbled.


Sure. But the attack had an effect. Which is the point.



kokodeshide said:


> Not really. At the end of the day, they are still just solid chakra.


But they're different from Chakra Avatars, still. Chakra Avatars are the Tailed Beasts' Chakra in the form of the Tailed Beast.



kokodeshide said:


> SS does NOT compare to a Juubidama. If a juubidama didnt even pierce through the Kyuubis tails, SS isnt scratching the full kyuui
> 
> Deity gates is a sealing jutsu, ok, and?
> Poison? What poison? and what poison is working on Kurama?


Juubidama literally did pierce its tails. And we already went over the fact that there are different damage types.

Flowering Tree World. The one used against the Gokage.



kokodeshide said:


> You say im not proving anything but you concede on like 5 points in this 1 fuckin post.


I'm conceding on relatively minor things which don't hold much weight in this discussion. I still have a lot to go on.



kokodeshide said:


> Are you seriously disregarding CONTEXT?


No



kokodeshide said:


> So sasuke and naruto were NOT equal, yet they fought together.


I said they were close to equals.



kokodeshide said:


> He literally cucks to BM naruto right before that as well.
> Link removed
> 
> KCM and EMS are what are comparable. As implied.
> ...


Yeah, I agree. I'm saying that Sasuke was on his level after he got his Kurama amp, Senjutsu amps, and his Leggd Susano'o.



kokodeshide said:


> And in the VOTE1 fight, he could have beaten sasuke but instead tries to prove him wrong.
> Lack of KI does matter when Naruto can pepper spray Bijuu dama but doesnt.


It matters to an extent. And they would have tied IIRC.

Sasuke can pepper spray PS attacks as well. 



kokodeshide said:


> A Kunai through the fuckin skull.


Oral Rebirth. And attacks to the head are massively OOC in this series. That's why characters like Tsunade and Sakura are even worth mentioning.



kokodeshide said:


> I disagree. Oonoki should have much trouble against Gaara or Tsunade just because of the style match up.


But we agree they are on a similar level of power, right?



kokodeshide said:


> and we are shown clearly that BM naruto is leagues ahead of EMS sasuke, The last 50 chapters explain that clearly. Yet even when Naruto stops FIVE TBB ,sasukes susano is equal.


Yeah, I agree. I think Sasuke gets on a similar level (albeit weaker) once he gets his Legged Susano'o.



kokodeshide said:


> haha, you are so right, yet Naruto wasnt even using KN0, 1, 2 or 3 which he can contol in training. So Naruto was holding back.


Since when has Naruto been able to control them?



kokodeshide said:


> Do you not realize that Jinchuriki are stronger, and more durable?


Deidara explained why that's the case. A Jinchuriki is stronger with a Bijuu because they can control the Bijuu's power. A Bijuu is normally mindless (tho that's retconned in the War Arc).



kokodeshide said:


> Oh wait, thats what the MANGA shows Hashirami and Madara doing to kyuuubi, suppression, HOW FUNNY. You know what else is funny, this equal power you speak of has never been shown.


Why would they fight against the Kyuubi when they don't have KI (something you said makes quite a big difference ) and can suppress it easier?

The equal power is in the databook. And the context is made clear. Maybe another thing we'll have to agree to disagree on. This debate is getting too old, so we'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of this.



kokodeshide said:


> lol ok. Quantify the power difference for me then.


There is no way to do that as V4 Susano'o has no feats or statements/hype regarding it. It's an unquantifiable. 



kokodeshide said:


> Dude. first off. nearly died after having 400 Times the regular exposure is insane. You are being absolutely ridiculous. If a sannin level person dies from momentary contact and Katsuyu doesn't die after the same amount of time, she survives lethal doses of KN chakra with no difficulty. Can you drink a glass of water? Yes. no diff? Yes? Can you drink one trillion gallons of water? No. Doe that mean you cant drink 1 glass? no. Can katsuyu survive momentary contact with KN chakra? yes. Can Orochimaru? No. Can Katsuyu survive 2x as long? yes. can she survive 4x as long? Yes. Can she survive 400 times as long? Yes. So she is fucking durable
> 
> And the level of false equivilence here is fuckin stupid. People dont die from contact with regular kyuubi. And even IF kyuubi was completely equal to mokujin, that doesnt mean people die from contact with Mokujin.
> 
> And KN8>50% kurama.


Eh, true enough regarding Katsuyu. But then how do you explain her saying she nearly died? How did you come to the conclusion that's 400x the exposure? 

What Katsuyu was touching was the Kyuubi's Chakra, so it means the Kyuubi's Chakra has the potential to do such things. 

50% Kurama > KN8. Honestly have no clue how you reached the conclusion that isn't. .-.



kokodeshide said:


> I ain't guilty of shit.
> 
> And they survived a FRACTION of the attack. So small that they arent even in the area to bust buildings completely only fracture them. not impressive.


Didn't the buildings look the same throughout the entire village? 



kokodeshide said:


> HA. Tsunade was literally jumping from the hokage mansion. she maybe moved a few hundred yards at most.


We have noway of knowing, but we do know she was closer than you and I thought.



kokodeshide said:


> You can touch a hot pan or touch acid really fast and not get hurt. Hold it like Orochimaru did, you will get hurt.
> 
> And Orochimaru was disintegrating, why the fuck else would he use his most chakra taxing jutsu? He could have got away from Naruto bu jumping. Much faster so no, you are dead wrong.
> 
> Did you just say a metal sword didnt get burned?


His snakes were grabbing onto Naruto,s o he couldn't jump away. 

What about it?



kokodeshide said:


> Concede? Really. When Madara says these two things?
> Link removed
> Link removed
> You literally such a fuckin liar. Madara himself said he will try than after said he WAS trying. Him sitting down is after it was too late. so he is like, well shit...
> ...


First off, I wasn't lying. Was genuinely unaware of those statements.

Second off, neither of them implies Madara used his full strength, which he evidently didn't if he started sitting down after he got blown away and never used his PS. All that implies is that Madara was taking them seriously, which is what he . I mean, Madara even states in the fight against the Gokage that hsi full power is his PS.



kokodeshide said:


> Because Kisame is durable. Is madara the fastest? no. The most durable? no. The most hax? no. the most chakra? no. So it falls right in line.


Kisame has no relevant hype in durability. He took a Hirodura with no killing intent behind it. A V2 Cloak put a hole in him and exposed his ribcage, whereas Tsunade's punch could barely do anything to Madara's Ribcage. 



kokodeshide said:


> No I didn't. My point was, IIRC, about acid or something like that, it will just take longer to go through cause there is more material.


Well, as long as we agree Ribcage isn't the same as PS, it's all good. 



kokodeshide said:


> At this point i don't actually remember even saying his scythe was PS sword level,gonna have to show me the context here.


We were talking about PS vs the Bijuu's durabiliy. I mentioned Hidan's scythe and Gamabunta's sword, to which you responded by either saying a Bijuu (Shukaku) could replace durability with regen due to being made of sand, and then IIRC you hyped up Hidan's scythe or something like that. But I'm pretty sure we both agree that PS can breach a Bijuu's durability, so it's nothing to worry about.



kokodeshide said:


> lol an explosion is a shockwave. kyuubis roar is a shockwave. so it literally is.


Kyuubi's roar only pushed the Bijuu back and did no damage. And even then Kyuubi's roar has no feats other than that IIRC. So there's no way to compare it to C1.



kokodeshide said:


> How did i make that up? If naruto makes 10 clones, if they put all their chakra into 1 rasengan it would be individually smaller than a naruto who only split himself in to 4 pieces. thats common sense. But, regardless. IT HAPPENED.


Except the Juubi's tails each have Bijuu Chakra. It's limbs should still be the exact same deal as the Gedo Mazo. 

It happened, that's why we call it an inconsistency. It's like RSM Naruto having trouble with an attack KN4 Naruto could deal with (Kusanagi).



kokodeshide said:


> what are you even talking about? You dont need to be pierced to control the mazo. You just need to give chakra to the mazo. That is fact. Obito, Zetsu, Kisame were able to use the phantom dragon from the fingers of the mazo, where they stand to give chakra. Nagato wasn't even there. So you are wrong. you have to be in contact with the Mazo. This is fact. But to summon and control it you do not need to do that.


Yes, but Nagato had to be pierced by Chakra Rods to form a connection to the Mazo. Obito and Madara didn't because they had Senju DNA.



kokodeshide said:


> Greater durability? I doubt it. a normal st will not damage hashirama or madara. a big one will. a normal one would hurt them if he hit them into the ground.
> 
> Tell me what is wrong with this. Big ST>>>>>>>Gamabunta. Gamabuntas weight>Kyuubi for a short time. Therefore, Big ST knocks kyuubi the fuck away. Hurts him? probably a bit. Enough to beat him? no. But better than what PS could do? oh yeah.


So you're teling me a big ST that could push away boss summons is better than PS cutting off mountain tops? 

Weight isn't everything that matters when it comes to overpowering ST. KN6 made that clear.



kokodeshide said:


> KN6 did resist ST. Gamabunta did get knocked away. Gamabunta did hold kyuubi for a moment. how does that mean Kyuubi doesnt get knocked away by ST????


Because weight doesn't have everything to do with resisting it.



kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, you are being retarded here. If you really think Katsuyu almost dying when she was hit with WAY BEYOND the lethal limit means she is less durable than someone like oro who died from a second or 2 of contact.


When did I even say Katsuyu is less durable than Oro? I don't believe I did. My point was that Katsuyu nearly died to KN6.



kokodeshide said:


> I have never, ever, changed my stance on that. I said he tossed him around, or beat the fuck out of him. that is true, i also said FRS simply stunned kyuubi. That is not a contradiction.


You said SM Naruto > 50% Kurama. 

Then said his strongest technique couldn't scratch Kurama.



kokodeshide said:


> Listen, i am saying to the manga, suppression is power. BUT, that does not mean you can appliy Kyuubis power to them because they dont use the same kind of power to "equal" him. Such a simple concept.


This isn't grounded by anything though. The databook directly states they're even, and clearly implies more than just suppression. The only thing you can say to this is that Mokujin was blown away by a TBB, but that isn't ever shown. I could say it was still there or it was withdrawn, but it wasn't destroyed. I mean, lines up with  after the explosion., which can explain the size of the cluster where Hashirama is not being t (assuming that's Mokujin).

But overall, we'll probabaly have to agree to disagree. 



kokodeshide said:


> What are you talkiiiing about!? If juubi WAS in the TINY cylinder he would have been crushed down. He would have broken out, obviously, but since it wasnt broken, he wasnt transformed yet.


Or he transformed right when the TBB hit him. 

I think you're cleanly going against author's intent here tbh. Why would Naruto and Bee even use that attack if it wouldn't have worked? They aleady fought the Juubi, so they would have had an understanding on its durability. We may have to agree to disagree here too.



kokodeshide said:


> you literally explained what i said. I dont even see what you were trying to say.


You compared Tsunade using her seal against Pain and her seal against Madara. I explained that she used her all against Pain because she had to spread it across the village, which took a lot out of her. The difference is Tsunade spread her seal across the entirety of the village, while for Madara she only had to heal herself. So it's a massive difference.



kokodeshide said:


> Since ST is not a punch, its a push, it would be a "lifting" feat.


So KN6 overpowered a push.



kokodeshide said:


> What did i say was impressive? SM naruto punking on Kyuubi. What did i say was unimpressive? FRS not hurting kyuubi. get it fuckin right, seriously.


You said SM Naruto > Kyuubi then said his strongest Jutsu didn't do anything. It's a contradiction, man. I even gave you the quotes.



kokodeshide said:


> Really? Hashiramas strongest attack literally didn't damage Madara at all. PS wasnt even completely destroyed. yet he is stronger.
> 
> Also, I don't believe I said SM was stronger than Kyuubi, I said he beat him up.


You did. I gave you the quotes.





kokodeshide said:


> Yes, but KN9 was still coming out when the seal hadn't even been touched. Minato does come out when KN8 is activated, but before he stops naruto KN9 is there. doesnt mean the kyuubi is free. The seal wasn't broken.


Once again, doesn't really make sense to me.

But whateves. How does it help your argument tho?



kokodeshide said:


> A little bit? are you serious? A few meters vs like 7 kilometers is a little bit???????
> 
> It isn't a contradiction at all. They are under the hokage mountain and the TBB has an epicenter FAR away from that, Even its closest point is FAR away from them. You could ONLY say i was being overdramatic. but bruh, thats better than saying a few fucking meters wtf.


This comes to a differing of opinion then. I already said I don't think the village is anywhere near as big as you think.



kokodeshide said:


> You are straight up denying logic here bro.


You expect perfect consistency from a weekly Shonen Mangaka. I'm pretty sure I'm in the right here.



kokodeshide said:


> Really? huh weird. I get negged by like 2 people consistently. thats it, otherwise, even though i pretty much only address controversial topics i still have positive rep and far more likes and agres than dislikes and disagrees. So you are straight up wrong. either way, i have won every single debate against you and anyone else. You have conceded so many fuckin points to me that im almost convinced that you are slowing becoming me.


There's a difference between being a good debater and having controversial opinions. There are many people who think your opinions are bad, but like your debating skills.

As I said earlier, I've been conceding minor points.



kokodeshide said:


> Learn to concede? Hahaha. I have repeatedly been PRAISED for conceding things, you dont know shit. I'll concede when your argument is sound and based off the manga, not off the opinion of your classroom lunch group.


My arguments are based on the Manga. It's just that your interpretation of the Manga is far off from mine and everyone else's.



kokodeshide said:


> after. a. fucking. miniwar.


Yes, I already acknowledged this. My point is that Pain overdid himself. We agree. So I have no clue why this is still going on.



kokodeshide said:


> The point is a FEW ninja pushes PS equal out of konoha. How could they not AT LEAST do the same?


Kurama never really used any attacks tho.



kokodeshide said:


> solo, yes. in a group of shinobi who can fuck up susano, no.


Probably not. What strong attacks do they have?



kokodeshide said:


> You see, this is why you are wrong. That is a false statement because it implies Madara con do better than pain. He sure as shit cant. and didnt.


He most likely can, considering he has better feats, statements, hype, and pretty much everything than Pain.

Madara never fought Konoha in canon.



kokodeshide said:


> based on what? Hinata and another hyuuga are literally shown.


I looked back and I'm pretty sure all that's stated is Hiashi and Hanabi were absent.

But even so, how would fodder Hyuga do anything to PS if they had no good moments in the Pain Arc and couldn't do anything even against the weaker Paths?



kokodeshide said:


> ok, he still did, he would have to have done the jutsu in his PS to live.


There was no point in showing off his ace. 



kokodeshide said:


> Universally agreed on by people who use his hype in the story to then counter in story facts. fuckin. retarded.


No, I'm pretty sure even respected debaters agree with me on this. You can ask the NBD in a thread if you want. EMS Madara with Perfect Susano'o vs Pain Arc Konoha.



kokodeshide said:


> Pain fought more than just fodder.
> 
> Madara was barely paying attention.


Most of what he fought was fodder. Most of them were either Genin/Chunin, a couple of Jonin, and Kakashi.

I was talking about what Madara should have done. You're talking about what he did.



kokodeshide said:


> as i said earlier, sitting down after it was too late.


Really? I thought Madara was trying his hardest and failed. Surely he would've went after them regardless?



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, yes it does matter. Are you saying that if they survive CT they can survive human paths soul suck?


No. This was in response to me saying Madara never used Perfect Susano'o. you responded by saying Nagato didn't use his strongest techs. I said he used it (CT). He didn't use CST, sure enough, but CT is a stronger technique. And he was unable to use Gedo Mazo.



kokodeshide said:


> The Mazo was summoned by him and controlled by him before the rods were in place. read the manga.
> 
> Also, Madara says, straight up, the only requirement to control the mazo is to have senju and uchiha dna, thats it! That's why obito could use the mazo before he had Rinnegan.


He summoned it and had it move its hands. Then he had to get stabbed to link himself to it permanently. 

I'm already aware of Madara's statemtn. His statement is that Obito has Hashirama's cells, so he can control the Mazo without the Rinnegan.



kokodeshide said:


> You actually have a minor point here. The problem is, VotE Madara cant do that, 2, Preta is a counter to Chakra period, so whatever Naruto hits him with in BM it is getting absorbed.


Other forms of Chakra absorption have shown limits, so why wouldn't Preta have one?



kokodeshide said:


> Cool thing that the manga is the final deciding factor.


It isn't. The databook reinforces what's in the Manga. I'd rather take a DB statement than an implication from Konan. 



kokodeshide said:


> And that literally means nothing as Obito doesn't even have eyes to use the jutsu. Might as well teach a rock the jutsu. Of all the jutsu madara taught him, Obito literally uses 1 path, Izanagi, and that's it. He doesn't even say that he could use them, neither madara nor obito even had time to use the rinnegan to master it. And it shows. Obito shows less knowledge of it than kabuto for fuck sake. Madara intended Obito to activate a Rinnegan on his own.


You're using logic where it doesn't apply. It's like asking how Obito and Kakashi came to the conclusion their Jutsu name was Kamui. It's just something that doesn't make sense, but happened because fiction. Madara teaching Obito the Rikudou no Jutsu is a fact.

Obito evidently had more knowledge on it than Kabuto. Kabuto's plan was to use it to take Naruto and Bee without Obito knowing. That's an example of Obito underestimating Kabuto/letting his guard down. It's not an example in his lack of knowledge about the Rinnegan. It's like if Naruto formed an alliance with Sasuke to fight against the Juubi. They both fire FRS andEnton Arrow against the Juubi, and Sasuke starts burning the Juubi in order to try to kill it. Naruto is aware of how Enton works, but he didn't nkow Sasuke would use it for his own purpose.



kokodeshide said:


> and neither of them made any sense. Shinra tensei is a useful additive to ANY ninja. It is a get out of jail card. no logic here.


I agree with you, but it doesn't stop the fact they were confident they could counter the Rinnegan Jutsu.

Kakashi and Guy also have knowledge on linked vision, so they'd exploit it akin to Itachi.



kokodeshide said:


> Outer path, yes.
> Deva, HAHAHAHAHA, he jumped in the air and fired a move wtf are you talking about?
> Preta.....what? How is that preta path? So Nagato could do that to Madara?


He levitated in the air for a good amount of time. That's most likely Deva.

And yeah, he absorbed Chakra from Madara, as Madara himself stated. Unless he can absorb Chakra without Preta, he wouldn't be able to do that. And yes, Nagato could do that assuming he manages to take Nagato off guard like Obito did.



kokodeshide said:


> He was struggling to use them. He even has to restrain one. That isnt taking it easy.


Even so, he wasn't using his full power, regardless of the reason.



kokodeshide said:


> HAHHAHAHA WRONG. So Bee can only fire 3 TBB before he is 100 percent out of chakra? Cause Bee can only make at most 3 V2 cloaks. This is shown in the kisame fight. A v2 cloak is literally over 100 times the chakra a TBB.


No, because that's ignoring the Partial Transformation he had in addition tot he fact Kisame blitzed him numerous times afterwards in base to take even more Chakra, and Hachibi still had some Chakra left, just got *most *of it drained.

And just going by the Chakra doesn't necessarily mean anything. Bee outright states the TBB is the strongest attack of a Tailed Beast. I don't see him saying that about V2. 



kokodeshide said:


> Itachi was the only one capable of that. His shurikenjutsu is top notch. Gai and kakashi are nowhere near as fast either.


Even skilled Genin are capable of landing kunai on a target. They don't need to do anything ridiculous like Itachi's shurikenjutsu that he showed to Sasuke. They only need to land a few hits. 

While they aren't anywhere near as fast, they can still most likely save Naruto and Bee with link vision cancelled and if Nagato isn't paying attention and isn't using sensory, pretty much the same conditions as Itachi. 



kokodeshide said:


> Based on using it on the head INSTANTLY KILLING THEM. Thats why Obito didnt use it when he was talking to Kabuto. Thats why Shizune dies when she has it used on her. Once the head is hit, you learn what they know, they become a fucking drooling vegetable and in exchange they die.


When is this stated that the head is faster than the stomach?

KCM Naruto could struggle against soul rip because he used his Chakra Arms. Whenever Nagato used soul rip on the head, it was against fodder with no means of protecting themselves.



kokodeshide said:


> Says the guy i have corrected over 20 times in 1 discussion.
> 
> 
> Also, for your information. There is a counter translation that says The greatest evils, not strongest.


Fair enough. Can you give me the scan of Nagato and Itachi?



kokodeshide said:


> Madara has a rep because he was a public figure. Nagata was not. are you gonna keep pretending that isnt true? People would probably hype Kakahi more than itachi because not many people fucking know itachi. But to not know a hokage is dumb.


Nagato/Pain did become a big figure after the fight against Naruto. He destroyed the whole Leaf Village, so he should have had at least some publicity.

Itachi did have a reputation. It's just that nobody knew he was a good guy in disguise.



kokodeshide said:


> Hashirama is not directly compared to Hagoromo like Nagato and Madara.
> 
> And good job, you countered your point. How is it stupid if it is true. there was no one alive that was stronger. He didnt say there has never been someone stronger since hashirama died. To use your BS tactics, He would have said he that no one since hashirama died is stronger than him if it was true.


Nagato was compared directly because he had an ability that Hagoromo had. Hahsirama's own ability was so powerful it was known as a myth. 

I think you're looking too much into the words. If Kabuto wanted to hype Hashirama up, he wouldn't have said that. He would have said that nobody bar Nagato has been stronger, or at least something subliminal such as nobody bar one has been stronger than him. But I don't know, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> Guess what that matters to, LIMBO. Guess what else, NOTHING. Kakashi has FAR less experience with Kamui than Obito and he can use Kamui just as well. So you are fucking wrong.


Stamina also matters. One who isn't an Uchiha has a harder time using Uchiha Dojutsu, as shown by Kakashi. Nagato is an Uzumaki, making him well fit, but he still has difficulty as shown by the Rinnegan shortening his life. 

Kakashi can't use Kamui as much as Obito. 

So overall, Nagato needs to expend more Chakra with the Rinnegan techs while Madara doesn't. Madara also has better control of the Outer Path (likely all the other Paths as well) and has Limbo.



kokodeshide said:


> Not at that point, Madara literally assaults obito with a million questions when he arrives. He doesnt even see black zetsu till WAY later.


Oh yeah, fair enough.

Although Obito, who's seen Nagato/Pain, states Nagato is his subordinate, meaning he believes himself to be superior.



kokodeshide said:


> I dont really disagree so how was i wrong?


Idk. My view his EMS Madara is physically stronger, but overall weaker because Edo Madara has more techniques up his sleeve.



kokodeshide said:


> You got a funny way of showing it.


That's because I'm a funny guy. 



kokodeshide said:


> Duh, im saying if Naruto wasnt spread out he COULD have used clones. and a rasenshuriken he could make with full chakra would be insane.


It's moot because he didn't use clones against Nagato either.



kokodeshide said:


> Bijuudama can only be used by KN4+, no other used it and *Bee legit when BM to use one then down to V2 to continue on.*
> 
> BM barely enhances him at all. He still duked it out with Obito with nearly no difference in ability.


When did Bee do that? @bold

That's because Obito's ability's function is nullifying firepower.



kokodeshide said:


> You struck a nerve because of how fucking retarded this point is. Tell me your favorite character and i will tell you that any opinion you have on them is retarded. Besides, Pain is NOT nagato.


I don't have any favorite characters atm. Anyway, my point was you're iffy because you have Pain listed as your favorite character and have wild opinions on him.

Pain is Nagato. They are the same, just different incarnations of the same character.



kokodeshide said:


> No, No. No. NO. The ONLY time it ever hits rubble IS vs pain. 1 time. Thats it.


 



kokodeshide said:


> If you know they do, why did you say they were beat by it? disingenuous.


It's an exaggeration. It's because the slash made them look like fodder even with just an indirect shockwave.



kokodeshide said:


> That was an intensely stressful situation. Naruto also collapsed after Obito told him the worst bedtime story ever.


Now we're back to different interpretations again. Agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> Done in, you mean knocked out? It was still alive. Deva actual died from a rasengan. and yes they are durable. Asura took a Raikiri and a Choza punch and was still alive.
> Human catches a punch no problem from sage mode and only fucks up his eyes from a sage kick. Deva gets minor burns from a Bijuudama. the rest are killed from sage rasengans or sage jutsu.


Knocked out or done in. Doesn't really matter tbh.

Anyway, I concede.



kokodeshide said:


> I dont even know WHAT you are talking about. Obito is not ANY rikudo. Only Hagoromo, Madara and Nagato are considered rikudou.




Obito and Madara have the same spot, because Obito was posing as him.



kokodeshide said:


> Huh? Madara complains. Pain no diffed it.


He says it has too much energy, but he absorbs it anyway. All that does is hint at a limit for Preta, but we know FRS itself isn't the limit.



kokodeshide said:


> Lack of shows means you cant say they acn.


It depends on the circumstance and what evidence there is to support it. Madara hasn't ever shown the Soul Dragon, but it doesn't mean he can't use it. Via scaling, he *can*.



kokodeshide said:


> Bullshit, He has the best preta feat, and the ONLY feat for the majority of the rest!


One question. How come Nagato having more efficiency in one Path is taken as him being more efficient in all of them, but the same can't apply for Obito with the Outer Path?

Also, what feat do you speak of?



kokodeshide said:


> Because.......Phantom dragon requires lots of chakra....





kokodeshide said:


> because......they gave chakra while on his fingers......please read the manga again.





kokodeshide said:


> Could it be the mazo DOES have its own life force and you literally skipped that chapter.


So we have seen Madara use the Mazo without getting rods in his back, but not the same with Nagato.

In both instances, there were no Bijuu in the statue. 

That tells me that Nagato doesn't have great control over it and requires rods to stab his back. We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't agree with me. Because we've debated this for quite long. 



kokodeshide said:


> Not from anything we have seen. Madara just activates the jutsu, he doesnt give the mazo any chakra.


They're Chakra Chains. Why would they not take Chakra?

Both the  and  make Hand Seals.



kokodeshide said:


> So dont call it a low end, call it a down play.
> 
> To address that assuming you only ever said downplay, i repeat. it depends on who he is matched up against. Against konohamaru, i say its great, if its against nagato i say its trash..
> 
> And guess what, Hashirama died in a war. to no one we know. Guess who else died to fodder, A3. But a huge group. Its hard to fight large armies, bro.


Yes, I conceded to the context bit.


We have no clue what the conditions were of him dying.



kokodeshide said:


> The instant Sasuke and Kisame were hit they were empty chest cavities. why would the damage occur AFTER separation.


The point is he absorbs the Chakra before he regenerates.



kokodeshide said:


> "Nothing interesting" you concede on several points.


I always do that, if proven wrong.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 12, 2019)

God damn it...You got my favorite bleach character as your avy, Now I have to like you more.



X III said:


> Then we'll have to agree to disagree. My interpretation is that either it was withdrawn or it was still there where we couldn't see it. I choose that interpretation because it lines up with the DB. But you can believe what you want.


It doesn't  line up with the databook because the databook gives a vague statement. but w/e. You are free to chose directly going against the manga to try and fluff hashiramas power.




X III said:


> Different types of strength exist so no.


Isometric and plyometric are the only types of strength. SM has shown power in both types. A lifting feat is a Isometric feat. A striking feat is a plyometric feat. A hold is also a Isometric feat so it would be considered the same. You could make an argument that throwing the rhino is a plyo metric feat, but you can also argu that plyometric movements beat Isometric movements yet SM naruto coulndnt power out of Pains hold at least not right away.


X III said:


> Sure. But the attack had an effect. Which is the point.


I agree, next to no effect. similar to the effect on A3.



X III said:


> But they're different from Chakra Avatars, still. Chakra Avatars are the Tailed Beasts' Chakra in the form of the Tailed Beast.


the difference is nearly nothing. Because both are simply masses of only chakra.


X III said:


> Juubidama literally did pierce its tails. And we already went over the fact that there are different damage types.
> 
> Flowering Tree World. The one used against the Gokage.


Yes, but that didn't defeat him.

When you say poison, you got me thinking killing poison. Not sleeping poison. What would hashirama do to Kyuubi or Juubi once they are asleep, absolutely nothing.


X III said:


> I said they were close to equals.


Noooooo. They are FAR from equals.


X III said:


> Yeah, I agree. I'm saying that Sasuke was on his level after he got his Kurama amp, Senjutsu amps, and his Leggd Susano'o.


So they are not equals then. At their individual max, they are not equals. Sasuke needed TWO enhancements to compete.


X III said:


> It matters to an extent. And they would have tied IIRC.
> 
> Sasuke can pepper spray PS attacks as well.


If Naruto aimed for Sasukes chest as sasuke did for naruto, sasuke would have died. naruto would just regen, as he did.

They are nothing like TBB



X III said:


> Oral Rebirth. And attacks to the head are massively OOC in this series. That's why characters like Tsunade and Sakura are even worth mentioning.


Oral Rebirth isn't saving him at that point. he neads his head and mind intact.
Head attacks happen quite a bit. At the very least neck attacks happen often. Thats the go to place for a killing strike. See, Zabuza, kakashi, minato, orochimaru, sasuke etc etc.



X III said:


> But we agree they are on a similar level of power, right?


Eh, overall I'd say 3 of them are, the other 2 are lower and higher.



X III said:


> Yeah, I agree. I think Sasuke gets on a similar level (albeit weaker) once he gets his Legged Susano'o.


Still not really, closer, sure.


X III said:


> Since when has Naruto been able to control them?


Since part one minus ONE moment. Jiraiya even says naruto can control up to 3 tails.



X III said:


> Deidara explained why that's the case. A Jinchuriki is stronger with a Bijuu because they can control the Bijuu's power. A Bijuu is normally mindless (tho that's retconned in the War Arc).


 Yes, and all the feats of a Jinchuriki surpass the bijuu, even in durability.



X III said:


> Why would they fight against the Kyuubi when they don't have KI (something you said makes quite a big difference ) and can suppress it easier?
> 
> The equal power is in the databook. And the context is made clear. Maybe another thing we'll have to agree to disagree on. This debate is getting too old, so we'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of this.


This is stupid though. You are saying that Hashirama and Madara can fight kyuubi equally without sealing despite them being shown not to. If we go off the manga, you are 100% wrong here.



X III said:


> There is no way to do that as V4 Susano'o has no feats or statements/hype regarding it. It's an unquantifiable.


Exactly my point, so you cant say im wrong about simply saying V4<PS


X III said:


> Eh, true enough regarding Katsuyu. But then how do you explain her saying she nearly died? How did you come to the conclusion that's 400x the exposure?


Because she did nearly die. From many many times a dose lethal to a damage sponge like orochimaru.

400x because Orochimaru withstood maybe a second. and assuming Katsuyu withstood 400 seconss it would be 400x times But in reality, even if it was 100 seconds thats still WAY better.


X III said:


> 50% Kurama > KN8. Honestly have no clue how you reached the conclusion that isn't. .-.


Because a Jinchuriki is ALWAYS stronger than its Bijuu. ALWAYS. They say in the manga that BM is STRICTLY to learn the strongest move of a Bijuu, not that that is the strongest form. V2 Bee slaughters Gyuuki.



X III said:


> Didn't the buildings look the same throughout the entire village?


what village, it was gone lol.

But, yeah, the buildings looked the same through the RIM of the villages that was untouched.



X III said:


> We have noway of knowing, but we do know she was closer than you and I thought.


sure, but she still wasnt in the epicenter or even the aoe of the CST, she was only in the outer area, the shockwave of the attack.



X III said:


> His snakes were grabbing onto Naruto,s o he couldn't jump away.


No, his snakes were disintegrating, meaning he was no longer touching him.



X III said:


> What about it?


His cloak isnt a temperature effect, its a corrosive effect. Why would Kusanagi gets harmed when it seems to be just flesh that is burned.


X III said:


> First off, I wasn't lying. Was genuinely unaware of those statements.


Fair enough. I was hoping that was the case.



X III said:


> Second off, neither of them implies Madara used his full strength, which he evidently didn't if he started sitting down after he got blown away and never used his PS. All that implies is that Madara was taking them seriously, which is what he . I mean, Madara even states in the fight against the Gokage that hsi full power is his PS.


 Again, the issue here is, Nagato wasn't using his full power either, and he won, casually. Madara wasn't using his full power, but was using powers BETTER SUITED than his own to fight Bee and Naruto and couldn't capture them. He lost lost right after. If Juubi wasn't about to be born you could assume that Bee, Naruto and nearly dead Gai would have won as Bee does have sealing jutsu.

All in all, how does that make you think EMS madara does better? EMS madara does significantly worse.



X III said:


> Kisame has no relevant hype in durability. He took a Hirodura with no killing intent behind it. A V2 Cloak put a hole in him and exposed his ribcage, whereas Tsunade's punch could barely do anything to Madara's Ribcage.


You cant prove or even imply that gais hirudora vs Kisame was weaker than a NEARLY DEAD gais vs Madara.

A4 was able to crack susano, with his power. Base Bee > V1 A4 in power. V1 should be closer to V2 A4. and V2 Bee is FARRRRR beyond that. Tsunades punch did a bit more than A4s, her her kick blew the Susano away.


X III said:


> Kyuubi's roar only pushed the Bijuu back and did no damage. And even then Kyuubi's roar has no feats other than that IIRC. So there's no way to compare it to C1.


A C1 could not do the same thing to 5 bijuu.

Nor could it do this.
Link removed



X III said:


> Except the Juubi's tails each have Bijuu Chakra. It's limbs should still be the exact same deal as the Gedo Mazo.
> 
> It happened, that's why we call it an inconsistency. It's like RSM Naruto having trouble with an attack KN4 Naruto could deal with (Kusanagi).


 So 7+tentacle+Kinkaku divided by 12 limbs is more than 7 divided by 4 limbs? You arent looking at this the right way. they have nearly the same chakra, the Juubi has an unknown amp, yes, but still, if Hiashi can stop a tail by himself, what makes you think the Mazo couldnt stop all fuckin 10? Or at least half. 



X III said:


> Yes, but Nagato had to be pierced by Chakra Rods to form a connection to the Mazo. Obito and Madara didn't because they had Senju DNA.


................Nagato does have Senju DNA. He is an uzumaki..... with Uchiha eyes...So he is the same exact thing they are, but better.



X III said:


> So you're telling me a big ST that could push away boss summons is better than PS cutting off mountain tops?


No, I'm telling you blocking the nearly equal FRS with ST is enough to block a slash.


X III said:


> Weight isn't everything that matters when it comes to overpowering ST. KN6 made that clear.


Weight is just force. KN6 applied more force than ST which is enough force to launchs the massive force of 3 charging frogs each of which is heavy enough to put kyuubi down and hold him



X III said:


> When did I even say Katsuyu is less durable than Oro? I don't believe I did. My point was that Katsuyu nearly died to KN6.


My point is you are portraying the whole thing incorrectly.


X III said:


> You said SM Naruto > 50% Kurama.
> 
> Then said his strongest technique couldn't scratch Kurama.


Both of which are true. the first time we see sasuke he could cancel out Deidaras strongest jutsu. Any ninja with electric chakra could cancel Deidaras jutsu.
But SM Naruto isnt stronger, he was beating the hell out of him though. So While kyuubi is the stronger person, Naruto was good enough to beat him. How many more FRS could kyuubi have taken.



X III said:


> This isn't grounded by anything though. The databook directly states they're even, and clearly implies more than just suppression.


Implies more than just suppression? Based on kyuubis FAR higher fire power and the manga fact that Hashirama used suppression on bijuus?


X III said:


> The only thing you can say to this is that Mokujin was blown away by a TBB, but that isn't ever shown. I could say it was still there or it was withdrawn, but it wasn't destroyed.


But you could say that about ANYTHING. You understand that right? You are trying to over complicate a very basic scene.



X III said:


> I mean, lines up with  after the explosion., which can explain the size of the cluster where Hashirama is not being t (assuming that's Mokujin).
> 
> But overall, we'll probabaly have to agree to disagree.


It makes sense to withdraw something that wouldnt be destroyed????? Why withdraw it then?

The mokuryu was done. Those hands are new hands hashirama creates. You are trying to hard on this ridiculous point. You are applying BS to make it so that Hashirama is Kyuubi/Nagato level.


X III said:


> Or he transformed right when the TBB hit him.
> 
> I think you're cleanly going against author's intent here tbh. Why would Naruto and Bee even use that attack if it wouldn't have worked? They aleady fought the Juubi, so they would have had an understanding on its durability. We may have to agree to disagree here too.


Except they only notice the Mazos chakra disappeared AFTER the explosion.


X III said:


> You compared Tsunade using her seal against Pain and her seal against Madara. I explained that she used her all against Pain because she had to spread it across the village, which took a lot out of her. The difference is Tsunade spread her seal across the entirety of the village, while for Madara she only had to heal herself. So it's a massive difference.


I didnt compare the 2 at all. I said Katsuyu alone wasnt what survived pains CST.



X III said:


> So KN6 overpowered a push.


Yup. an almighty push



X III said:


> Hashirama's strongest attack tore off a part of Susano'o, and later the entire Susano'o dissipated.


And madara remained unharmed.


X III said:


> Once again, doesn't really make sense to me.
> 
> But whateves. How does it help your argument tho?


It demonstrates that KN9 is NOT kurama.


X III said:


> This comes to a differing of opinion then. I already said I don't think the village is anywhere near as big as you think.


No, it reallllllly doesn't. Cause even if you think that the villages is 10 times smaller, it is STILL at least a kilometer.

Also, how is it that being a ninja represents a small percentage of Konoha, yet, konoha and throw 15k+ chunin and jounin at the war and the village only be 2km wide with zero skyscrapers? Of narutos whole class, only 9 became ninja. Many academy students move on and do other things in life, not become ninja. the population of konoha is tremendous. and in a city without massive buildings, you need a wide space. Why else would it take a good while to cross the village yet they travel hundreds of miles in not much time? Why else could shikamaru sakura and fam not even SEE Naruto and Pain from where they were? Why did they need a byakugan user, to even see where they were. Even lowly Hinata can see 10 KM with her eyes. If the distances were really small, they never would have lost sight of Naruto and Pain.


X III said:


> You expect perfect consistency from a weekly Shonen Mangaka. I'm pretty sure I'm in the right here.


No, You expect DRAMATIC inconsistency. I don't even need to calc it, just a basic comparison of objects works. In my Nagato thread I made a comparison pic, you'd have to Make the madara and Hashirama statues literally 30 times the size of the hokage mountain to say the crater of the VotE was the same.

Also, what realllly irks me is, if you arent going off calcs, how can you say Madara or hashirama have more attack power? Madara cuts a few mountains. Nagato demolishes tens of mountains with CT.

Hashirama carves a valley roughly as wide, but not as tall as the hokage mountain faces. Nagato absolutely dwarfs that. with both CT and CST. So what are you going off of, because visually, Nagato smashes them in Attack power, and when you calc it out, he STILL smashes them. And when you use power scaling, he again, STILL SMASHES. So i dont see what you have to win this argument.


X III said:


> There's a difference between being a good debater and having controversial opinions. There are many people who think your opinions are bad, but like your debating skills.


That doesn't make sense. That would mean you all are fuckin stupid and cant debunk a false statement.



X III said:


> As I said earlier, I've been conceding minor points.


lol to debate anything based off many false premises means your whole point is bunk.



X III said:


> My arguments are based on the Manga. It's just that your interpretation of the Manga is far off from mine and everyone else's.


hence why you conceded many many things. Which i applaud you for, others dont do that. But, even still, you remain firm to your opinion despite nearly every point being unraveled.


X III said:


> Yes, I already acknowledged this. My point is that Pain overdid himself. We agree. So I have no clue why this is still going on.


Because you are using him being exhausted as a marker for his effects from rinnegan. When Kakashi was tired, using MS killed him. So do i say Kakashi DIED from MS use therefore he sucks. No. You are taking a situation out of context and painting nagato with it.


X III said:


> Kurama never really used any attacks tho.


And he didn't really use any attacks against mokujin either. and he didnt use ANY against madara.



X III said:


> Probably not. What strong attacks do they have?


Chakra sucking bugs. Shinos super attack literally has giant bugs that consumed those juubi spawn like nothing. His Susano gets drained.
Butterfly mode choji.
Gates users.
Nara clan holding him.
Yamanaka threats.
Sarutobi clan fire barrage
not to mention anything naruto can do or Kamui.


X III said:


> He most likely can, considering he has better feats, statements, hype, and pretty much everything than Pain.


Better feats? no. He literally has no jutsu that can one shot the village. Even the meteor gets wrecked.
Statements? Pain is remarked to be invicible several times, Even by Fukasaku, a fuckin 800 year old toad sage who has seen some shit in his life. He straight up says no one can beat pain without knowledge. EMS Madara has pretty much no hype above this. Obito agrees pain is invincible. Shocked that anyone could have delayed the invincible pain. Leader of akatsuki with POWER, not trickery like in obitos case.


X III said:


> Madara never fought Konoha in canon.


I dont think it is shown completely but i do believe he did attack konoha.



X III said:


> I looked back and I'm pretty sure all that's stated is Hiashi and Hanabi were absent.


IDK, all i know is that Neji wasn't there, thats as far as i remember.



X III said:


> But even so, how would fodder Hyuga do anything to PS if they had no good moments in the Pain Arc and couldn't do anything even against the weaker Paths?


Hinata is a SCRUB. Even as an adult she still isn't a jounin. She is a weak hyuuga. And she still help defend against Juubi attacks. Kaiten from hyuuga are legit. Empty palm blasts from high level hyuuga are enough to block juubi tails. While Hiashi may be the only one that level, Neji is close and a few empty palms from other hyuuga should equal Hiashis.



X III said:


> There was no point in showing off his ace.


except to live, but either way its besides the point.



X III said:


> No, I'm pretty sure even respected debaters agree with me on this. You can ask the NBD in a thread if you want. EMS Madara with Perfect Susano'o vs Pain Arc Konoha.


Anyone that really thinks Madara can solo a village has never read the manga. No ninja alone was a village threat. period. Hashirama didn't lose to a force above Konoha. The moment the Aburame, Akimichi and Nara clan step out, they are raping Madara. Pain has a special advantage of 6 individual bodies which forces konoha to spread out. Madara doesn't have TBB level power. His is no more than kyuubi with his TBB. and Kyuubi still couldnt beat konoha without his TBB. So how could Madara?



X III said:


> Really? I thought Madara was trying his hardest and failed. Surely he would've went after them regardless?


He was, but the juubi was about to awaken, why would he go after them once that happened?


X III said:


> No. This was in response to me saying Madara never used Perfect Susano'o. you responded by saying Nagato didn't use his strongest techs. I said he used it (CT). He didn't use CST, sure enough, but CT is a stronger technique. And he was unable to use Gedo Mazo.


No, im pretty sure you were saying that since Pains "Strongest attack" couldnt beat naruto and bee that he couldnt beat naruto and bee.
Which is absolutely ridiculous.


X III said:


> Other forms of Chakra absorption have shown limits, so why wouldn't Preta have one?


Im not saying preta doesnt have limits, im saying preta has limits beyond what BM has shown. to put out with a single move.


X III said:


> It isn't. The databook reinforces what's in the Manga. I'd rather take a DB statement than an implication from Konan.


What??? Yes it is. The databook isnt even exclusively written by Kishimoto. The manga is. Konan repeatedly shows knowledge of Nagatos jutsu, why is it this is the one jutsu she is clueless about. Why would she speak about it SPECIFICALLY killing him because his chakra is low.


X III said:


> You're using logic where it doesn't apply. It's like asking how Obito and Kakashi came to the conclusion their Jutsu name was Kamui. It's just something that doesn't make sense, but happened because fiction. Madara teaching Obito the Rikudou no Jutsu is a fact.


Teaching him the jutsu doe not mean he can use it, do you understand that? And he failed to demonstrate that he could.



X III said:


> Obito evidently had more knowledge on it than Kabuto. Kabuto's plan was to use it to take Naruto and Bee without Obito knowing. That's an example of Obito underestimating Kabuto/letting his guard down. It's not an example in his lack of knowledge about the Rinnegan. It's like if Naruto formed an alliance with Sasuke to fight against the Juubi. They both fire FRS andEnton Arrow against the Juubi, and Sasuke starts burning the Juubi in order to try to kill it. Naruto is aware of how Enton works, but he didn't nkow Sasuke would use it for his own purpose.


No

Link removed
Obito not understanding that he could use Human path then Hell realm to revive Yamato like kabuto was going to do with Bee and Naruto.

To me, Obito is straight up bluffing to scare Kabuto. Kabuto later even cucks to him because he is scared of the rinnegan.



X III said:


> I agree with you, but it doesn't stop the fact they were confident they could counter the Rinnegan Jutsu.
> 
> Kakashi and Guy also have knowledge on linked vision, so they'd exploit it akin to Itachi


Naruto hitting Obito with Rasenshuriken to seperate the cords to the juubi would have been stopped mighty easily with Preta. And Madara uses preta with no counters MANY times, why wouldnt Obito?



X III said:


> He levitated in the air for a good amount of time. That's most likely Deva.


Bullshit, that is baseless speculation. I could say the same thing about itachi and sasuke for any in air use of firball jutsu.



X III said:


> And yeah, he absorbed Chakra from Madara, as Madara himself stated. Unless he can absorb Chakra without Preta, he wouldn't be able to do that. And yes, Nagato could do that assuming he manages to take Nagato off guard like Obito did.


Madara was able to. Kisame is able to, Zetsu, Yoroi, Etc. Many ninja are capable of stealing chakra without a special tool.



X III said:


> Even so, he wasn't using his full power, regardless of the reason.


Thats true, but you know what else is true, thats its absolutely disingenuous to say he was toying around with them when in actuallity he was INCAPABLE of using his full power.


X III said:


> No, because that's ignoring the Partial Transformation he had in addition tot he fact Kisame blitzed him numerous times afterwards in base to take even more Chakra, and Hachibi still had some Chakra left, just got *most *of it drained.


You're wrong. First off, the partial transformation is a FAR lesser mode. and, He got 2 V2s absorbed. Plus Kisame isnt taking anywhere near as much chakra with each hit than is Bee was COVERED by chakra. Hence why i say 3, as 2 V2's were taken, plus some of a v1 and some of a partial transformation and then some from basic hits to base bee. Bee in base has a full V1 cloak of chakra as his V1 was absorbed then he had to borrow gyuukis. V2 is 10 times as much chakra as V1. So unless Kisame was taking away V1 levels of Bee chakra with every hit during his swarming attack, which is impossible as Bee wasnt even cloaked, then it was no more than an extra V2 cloak. So, 3, maybe even 4 V2 cloaks Is a full Bijuu.



X III said:


> And just going by the Chakra doesn't necessarily mean anything. Bee outright states the TBB is the strongest attack of a Tailed Beast. I don't see him saying that about V2.


Oh, you are right, since TBB's are the strongest attack it must also mean they have more chakra than BM. TBB is an attack, V2 is a form. This is basic shit bro.



X III said:


> Even skilled Genin are capable of landing kunai on a target. They don't need to do anything ridiculous like Itachi's shurikenjutsu that he showed to Sasuke. They only need to land a few hits.


Link removed
Kabuto directly relates that to ITACHI's skill with Kunai.


X III said:


> While they aren't anywhere near as fast, they can still most likely save Naruto and Bee with link vision cancelled and if Nagato isn't paying attention and isn't using sensory, pretty much the same conditions as Itachi.


You have to cancel the link AND be fast enough to get to Nagato before he notices that his summons were hit.


X III said:


> When is this stated that the head is faster than the stomach?





X III said:


> KCM Naruto could struggle against soul rip because he used his Chakra Arms. Whenever Nagato used soul rip on the head, it was against fodder with no means of protecting themselves.


Huh? When you use it on the head it instantly zombifies you. You become a drooling mess. Narutos ability to fight soul ripping doesnt matter when your mind is turned off.



X III said:


> Fair enough. Can you give me the scan of Nagato and Itachi?


Link removed



X III said:


> Nagato/Pain did become a big figure after the fight against Naruto. He destroyed the whole Leaf Village, so he should have had at least some publicity.
> 
> Itachi did have a reputation. It's just that nobody knew he was a good guy in disguise.


His rep wasnt big enough. Konoha doesn't even really say what happened, they keep attacks on the DL to remain powerful looking. Yes, they know akatsukis leader did that, but how? why? what happened? Even team samui didnt knw the extent of what happened to Konoha.

But to naruto, KCM naruto, Nagato was unbeatable.
To Fukasaku and Obito, Pain was invincible.
To Bee, Nagato was a "hella strong mothafucka"


X III said:


> Nagato was compared directly because he had an ability that Hagoromo had. Hahsirama's own ability was so powerful it was known as a myth.
> 
> I think you're looking too much into the words. If Kabuto wanted to hype Hashirama up, he wouldn't have said that. He would have said that nobody bar Nagato has been stronger, or at least something subliminal such as nobody bar one has been stronger than him. But I don't know, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.


The issue with your logic when you say shit like, "Kabuto would said", No he wouldn't have. Because it is likely that Indra and Asura were more powerful than Hashirama, and since we know Hamura was Hagoromo level, he would have been in that "Stronger than hashirama" area too. So unless hashirama was stronger than Indra, Ashura and Hamura, that logic does not work. Hashirama is a mythical figure, using him makes more sense.


X III said:


> Stamina also matters. One who isn't an Uchiha has a harder time using Uchiha Dojutsu, as shown by Kakashi. Nagato is an Uzumaki, making him well fit, but he still has difficulty as shown by the Rinnegan shortening his life.
> 
> Kakashi can't use Kamui as much as Obito.
> 
> So overall, Nagato needs to expend more Chakra with the Rinnegan techs while Madara doesn't. Madara also has better control of the Outer Path (likely all the other Paths as well) and has Limbo.


Stamina isn't power or abillity. Nowhere is it said that Nagato expends more chakra than Madara per Rinnegan jutsu, you literally made that up. Just like you made up the idea that a fake wielder cant be stronger than the original owner. That only applies to max potential with the eyes.

Think about it logically. If Madara took Obitos MS as a kid, would he only be restricted to how powerful Obito was at that point? No that's just dumb. Obito had better outer path ability, yet he couldnt even handle 2 rinnegan. Your logic just doesn't fit.



X III said:


> Although Obito, who's seen Nagato/Pain, states Nagato is his subordinate, meaning he believes himself to be superior.


No, LITERALLY manipulates him. That is specifically said. It is never said that he believes himself to be stronger. He literally loses the majority of the fights he is in in the series. He is almost beaten by Konan, If Nagato was trying to beat Obito don't you think he would have done a better job than Konan? Nagato also never even acts like Obito is his actual boss. He even directly states his plan IS NOT Infinite tsukuyomi.


X III said:


> That's because I'm a funny guy.






X III said:


> It's moot because he didn't use clones against Nagato either.


Not the point. also, wouldnt have made a difference.



X III said:


> When did Bee do that? @bold


Link removed


X III said:


> That's because Obito's ability's function is nullifying firepower.


No, MB was also not even able to blitz him.



X III said:


> I don't have any favorite characters atm. Anyway, my point was you're iffy because you have Pain listed as your favorite character and have wild opinions on him.
> 
> Pain is Nagato. They are the same, just different incarnations of the same character.


But that is absolutely ridiculous. If you said something fuckin 12 years ago am i going to hold you to those words today?

And Pain as a character is MUCH cooler than Nagato, the guy was a fuckin scary looking monster. Is old madara as cool as young madara? Not to me. Either way. Nagato isn't even in my top 10.


X III said:


> *Spoiler*:


That CREATED some rubble, it didn't HIT rubble.


X III said:


> Obito and Madara have the same spot, because Obito was posing as him.


That is saying that having part senju and Uchiha dna makes you a Sage of the 6 paths. So either she means he can do Izanagi, a similar jutsu to Hagoromos creation jutsu, or She means Danzo, Obito, Nagato, Hagoromo, Madara, Black Zetsu are all Sages of the 6 paths.


X III said:


> He says it has too much energy, but he absorbs it anyway. All that does is hint at a limit for Preta, but we know FRS itself isn't the limit.


Hint at his limit, not pretas limit. Nagato doesn't have the same limit.



X III said:


> It depends on the circumstance and what evidence there is to support it. Madara hasn't ever shown the Soul Dragon, but it doesn't mean he can't use it. Via scaling, he *can*.


If Madara DID use the Phantom Dragon, he would have to give Chakra like Nagato did.



X III said:


> One question. How come Nagato having more efficiency in one Path is taken as him being more efficient in all of them, but the same can't apply for Obito with the Outer Path?
> 
> Also, what feat do you speak of?


He doesn't just have number proficiency in 1 path, he has number one proficiency in 6 of the 7. Barring JJ.

He has the best Preta feat, absorbing the V2 cloak.
He has the best Deva feat, CST and CT.
He has the ONLY Human, Asura, Animal and Hell feats.
He even arguably has the best hyped Outer path ability, using Rinne Tensei and not die. While Madara has great contol over the sealing of the Mazo and Obito has the best control over the sealing rods.



X III said:


> So we have seen Madara use the Mazo without getting rods in his back, but not the same with Nagato.
> 
> In both instances, there were no Bijuu in the statue.
> 
> That tells me that Nagato doesn't have great control over it and requires rods to stab his back. We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't agree with me. Because we've debated this for quite long.


You are literally rejecting the fact that they are NOT the same jutsu.

The Mazo is motionless unless willed to move by its wielder. That is FACT. The mazo can be controlled by ANY uchiha+senju mix. FACT. Nagato, Obito, Madara and even Danzo all fulfill that requirement. The chakra chains do not require external chakra to power the jutsu, only that the RInnegan wielder activate the jutsu. FACT. The Phantom Dragon DOES require external chakra, and a lot of it, to power itself. FACT. Nagato did not require a blood sacrifice to summon the Mazo, whereas Madara did. FACT.

All of that means that Nagato could, and did summon and control the mazo without getting rods put in him. Nagato and Obito control, not the mazo, but the 6 paths of pain with the rods. Nagato used his own chakra and life force to power the phantom dragons, NOT the mazo.

To argue that Nagato could not control the mazo without the rods would be to go directly against Manga fact that Uchihasenju mixs can control the mazo. You have no basis here, this is NOT an agree to disagree, this is blatant denial of established manga canon.



X III said:


> They're Chakra Chains. Why would they not take Chakra?
> 
> Both the  and  make Hand Seals.


They are not the same jutsu, why would they work in the same way?



X III said:


> We have no clue what the conditions were of him dying.


We know it was in the war, and we know it wasn't a Konoha level force.



X III said:


> The point is he absorbs the Chakra before he regenerates.


He has no damage, regen isn't instant.


X III said:


> I always do that, if proven wrong.


 Not always, but we will see here.


----------



## Hardcore (Mar 12, 2019)

so many walls of text

someone explain to me why Nagato does not lose badly in no more than 2 sentences please, Kurama is not even restricted lol


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## kokodeshide (Mar 12, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> so many walls of text





Hardcore said:


> someone explain to me why Nagato does not lose badly in no more than 2 sentences please, Kurama is not even restricted lol


1. Nagato is uneffected by Madaras attacks due to Preta, no not a NLF because Preta absorbs V2 levels of chakra in one go, No jutsu Madara has is on that level of chakra, even TBB are not.
2. Kurama is matched with by the Gedo Mazo or many summons and the black chakra rods.


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## Hardcore (Mar 12, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> 1. Nagato is uneffected by Madaras attacks due to Preta, no not a NLF because Preta absorbs V2 levels of chakra in one go, No jutsu Madara has is on that level of chakra, even TBB are not.
> 2. Kurama is matched with by the Gedo Mazo or many summons and the black chakra rods.



well even if the first point is true, i doubt it since neither madara or obito absorbed the BDs of KB and BM Naruto who were aimed at Juubi, was never shown in any scenario in addition to BBs being a bit different to other jutsus (a combination of dark and positive chakra) but okay let's assume he could, PS slashes are lethal and how is Nagato countering those?

and well Kn6 broke the black chakra rods but yeah i remember obito using them to paralyze B so pretty inconsistent, but it would be harder for Nagato since he is not intangible like Obito to use them on Kyuubi without getting hurt plus Madara can save Kyuubi like BM B saved B..

Nagato's strongest attack, CT, won't work since Kurama can destroy it with a TBB..


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 12, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Chakra assisted movement that allows one to teleport. You have improved but still got a ways to go. Even if it isn't a S/t ninjutsu, it still allows the user to transcend the limits of normal movement. I showed you evidence that it didn't function like Body Flicker. Body Flicker is high speed movement, troll harder


It is literally describes the same as body flicker with one added effect. And yet you still insist it is different. Both are high speed movement. each are used in a different way.


ThirdRidoku said:


> when people use substitution in this manga, they disappear and move somewhere else and summon another object to their previous location during the switch. Sasuke's explanation isn't sufficient because clones and logs have been summoned when there were none nearby. Show me one time Body Flicker alllowed a restrained target to escape. Humor me on why we can clearly see Ayy turning into streaks of lightning or in other cases clearly has movement lines on himself when he is confirmed to be using Body Flicker lmao.


You say they summon something, that goes directly against the manga and databooks explanation of it. You are denying canon, buddy.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Are you? WHERE ARE THE MOVEMENT LINES FOR ITACHI. We have seen what Itachi's body flicker looks like here:
> *Spoiler*: _Itachi's MOVEMENT LINES_
> 
> 
> ...


Do you not realize that Itachi did the switch right after he shot the fireball while their line of sight was blocked? This is common sense, bro.


ThirdRidoku said:


> What are you on? The Akatsuki met 7 years ago???? LMAO So Itachi who was 18 in part one joined the akatsuki when he was 11? The bro was running the Konoha ANBU at age 13, so how the fuk was he in the Akatsuki 7 years ago? Troll harder bro.
> Jiraiya's intel is legit because he followed Orochimaru's movements and when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki, Jiraiya immediately noticed a change in the Akatsuki's movement patterns. Jiraiya knew enough to know there were nine members (Obito technically wasn't a member) and he knew that Itachi was among them, so his intel is legit. We know Oro left the Akatsuki because he got shit diff'd by Itachi when he tried to sneak up on him during Akatsuki downtime to steal his body. Jiraiya was the dude who found Akatsuki headquarters in the Rain. His intel gathering is legit, so trollharder.
> Kishimoto fuk'd up his continuity, so my interpretation is just as valid as yours.


So you completely disregard the manga. There is no use in talking to you. The manga clearly says they havent met up since orochimaru left. regardless of the timeline, that is a fact. yet you say that their words dont matter to prove your BS point. You are the definition of a blind fanboy. You have sunk so low that you even say the akatsukis OWN WORDS are less valuable than jiraiyas when talking about themselves. Wow. I didnt think you could get this bad.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Troll harder bro .You can't confirm the length of the valley so I am free to "BS" all I want. If you consider fair scaling BS be my guest. I was trying to be as restrictive as possible so I don't humiliate Nagato too much LMAO.


And yet, your value is tremendously less than Nagatos, how funny, even with your BS calc its trash compared to Nagatos.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Still ignore Perfect Susano'o tensile strength and toughness. Smells like a concession is in the air. PS is easily in the top 5 best defenses in this manga and Hashirama busted it. You also can't give me a calculation for it's toughness in Joules/cm^3 because you know the answer would humiliate Nagato LMAO. Still ignored the disadvantages Hashi had too. What a waste of time.


I didnt ignore PS at all. It's up to you to tell me the value of PS defense. It failed to tank a large mountain buster yet you think it takes an island buster?


ThirdRidoku said:


> LMAO I KNEW you would say this shit. Too easy to predict at this point bruh. Troll harder. Karin was shitting her pants at V2 Ayy's bijuu levels of chakra and compared it directly to Full Gyuki. Chakra =stamina=mental+physical energy. Kisame's physical strength is directly shown to be related to his jinchuriki level reserves. It's common sense. Chakra is proportional to both strength, endurance, and durability, which is why Kisame, Nagato, and Obito can tank attacks that would flatten or easily pierce almost anyone else. Speed is not as heavily correlated because the chakra control factor matters more for speed, but even in the case of increased chakra flow, if you have more chakra flowing you will gain more speed. Base Naruto, if he could open the 8 gates, would achieve better physical stats than rock lee. Go back to the academy bro and learn a thing or two from Ebisu. The more chakra you have to mould for your jutsu, the stronger it becomes sufficient you have the required chakra control. Making significantly more than 1 shadow clone splits your stamina and strength to dangerous levels as clearly stated by Kakashi and Guy and even The Third Hokage's Anbu on more than one occasion. Good for diversions, not so much for finishing power unless you have bijuu levels of chakra. Stamina is directly related to strength, but your judgement is clouded you can't even understand the context in which I discuss strength. you are talking about strength in terms of who can beat who. I am talking about physical strength and jutsu strength. Even in old age Hiruzen still had enough chakra to make two clones and use death reaper Seal without immediately dying. Even chakra enhancement scales with stamina. Chakra control x stamina determines your power output potential along with things like muscle mass and weight. The more energy you can transmit to your muscles the stronger the contractions the more power output you get. Sakura and Tsunade are just outliers do to superhuman chakra control, they know how and when to precisely manipulate huge amounts of chakra in an instant as they punch and kick. IF the Raikage had their chakra control and combined it with his bijuu levels of chakra, he would blowing apart rib Cage Suano'o. But even Itachi's chakra control is amazing due to his genjutsu skill, his punches can hurt KCM Naruto. Might Guy doesn't rely purely on significant chakra augmentation. The guy physically trains equally or better than rock lee does. He built up tons of natural physical strength naturally through vigorous training and worked on his speed strength and durability and endurance. Of course he can blow away Gaara's sand lmao. Itachi's stamina very clearly limits his strength. Look at his v4 Susano'o and Madara's V4 Susano'o. Same technique yet Madara's is way bigger and stronger due to his bigger chakra lmao. I don't dickride ITachi, I simply give him the feats he has earned. The only reason I put his susano'o over Madara's is because he has absolute ethereal weapons that ignore enemy durability and power. If you took away Yata and Totsuka, Madara has an objectively superior Susano'o.


You are simply wasting your time. You didnt even address what i was saying then added shit that proves my fuckin point. 

Base Bee doesnt have the chakra of A, yet he still overpowered him. 
Hiruzen alone disproves everything you said. He could only make 2 clones, yet is shown to be one of the absolute top dogs in naruto. If you dont want to address how, Itachi, Kakashi, and Hiruzen can match up with titans of chakra, dont bother responding. Because it is obvious that pure chakra doesnt mean anything when comparing 2 SEPARATE ninja.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Troll Harder bro. Kurama's power grows with each tail it sprouts. It was at 8 tails and still casually busted out with physical strength alone. Nagato increasing chibaku Tensei size would have just pissed Kurama off even more lmao. Bijuu dama good game. You wank Kn6 bijuu dama being unable to do anything to chibaku tensei yet Kn8 was busting out of that shit so it's irrelevant.
> Gyuki was also with a perfect jin yet still noted that Kurama was in a different league LMAO. Hashi has more chakra than BM naruto, so troll harder. Madara scales to that level as well.


You list so much nonsensical shit it amazes me.



ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL. That's why it was crying out in pain when it was grabbed by ShinssuSenju right? It wasn't hurt because PS shielded it and I only ever said Kurama and SM Hashi were in a similiar weight class, Full Kurama is stronger and more durable but doesn't matter. Both of them won't be taking any damage from CST. Kurama can root it's tails in the ground for traction and Hashirama has buddha hands for days and even more inertia than PS. CST pushes them back and Nagato is on cool down for the rest of the foreseeable match, GG.


Crying? it roared. thats kinda what kyuubi does.

You'd have to prove that Hashirama or madra could exert 300 gigatons of force to say they could pushback CST, good luck.


ThirdRidoku said:


> It's wank bro. Chibaku Tensei ain't ripping apart shit. Shinsuusenju mercilessly busts out then rains down buddha hands on Nagato while is bleeding out of his nose and was forced to deactivate his other paths. All it would do is piss hashirama off dude lmao. You still can't give me a calc for the durability of PS. Good luck finding it. Tsunade in her strongest form can only muster a crack on Madara's weakest susano'o variant. With Ayy+ ohnoki helping they shattered a huge part of it. V2/v3 Susano'o has been taken out a few times, but there is a huge gap between that and V4 Susano'o and then a stablizied Perfect Susano'o which rivals Kurama lmao.


And alllllllll the shit you listed here is dogshit to CST.

CT would rip SS apart. SS cant even hit the ground without breaking, how is it resisting getting ripped to shreds?



ThirdRidoku said:


> And it logically would be since it clearly came from outerspace. 11,000 meters per second is still nine times slower than the speed of a lightning leader at 98,348 meters per second which we know is something the reflex gods of Naruto can handle. Ohnoki being able to fly up and lighten it is believable.


Clearly came from outerspace? thats why it was moving so slow, right?


ThirdRidoku said:


> The attack's tremor was felt many kilometers away lmao. And he summoned those meteors without any kind of strain so he could have summoned more. We have seen edo tensei get tired when they use chakra taxing techniques so.... Yea Nagato still gets shit diff'd in stamina by Madara lmao.


No one is saying nagato has more stamina you fuckin moron, thats why you just cant be taken seriously, you are addressing things that no one said. and you say he summoned the meteors, why then are they moving as fast as you said? If they were summoned they would just plop into the atmosphere then start falling, meaning it wasnt even moving supersonic. 

Nagato was fine after CT as an edo so, what is your point?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Lmao wtf? Hashirama got shit diff'd by a MADARA 's rod control who would shit diff Nagato. Hashirama embarrased Nagato in chakra by breaking edo tensei control, period.


Prove that Madaras rod control is better than Nagatos. I'll wait.
And hashirama isnt madara, bro.



ThirdRidoku said:


> CST isn't doing shit to Hashirama or Madara, they have the means of protecting themselves. Tsunade survived it with injuries and healed the worst of it off but without help from Katsuyu and the woman just expended almost all her chakra protecting everyone else. CST just gets reflected back at Nagato bro lol. Keep up the wank bro.


No one survived being in the blast without Katsuyu. thats a durability feat for Katsuyu. 
Keep up the wank, keep up proving you are a sheep who cant think for himself. Keep saying several hundred kilotons is bigger than several hundred gigatons. Clown of the earth i swear.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Shockwaves which created a new biome thousands of kilometers long + aren't doing shit to Nagato? The wank is unreal lmao. Valleys are always designed to be longer than they are deep. Keep up the downplay bro. You are light work when it comes to Nagato.


See this here? Definition of absolute clown. The shockwaves are of punches hitting the ground, not air bursts from hitting themselves. jesus, common sense, kid.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I proved he can use the paths bro. he showed it on panel and more than one character said he can use all the paths. So troll harder.


that isn't proof, kid. But I don't expect much from you anymore. You are long gone.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 12, 2019)

Boy, you are a breath of fresh air, Hardcore. Thank you for bringing some civility. 


Hardcore said:


> well even if the first point is true, i doubt it since neither madara or obito absorbed the BDs of KB and BM Naruto who were aimed at Juubi, was never shown in any scenario in addition to BBs being a bit different to other jutsus (a combination of dark and positive chakra) but okay let's assume he could, PS slashes are lethal and how is Nagato countering those?


They didnt need to absorb the BD. the Juubi was handling them just fine.
PS slashes are lethal, put Preta absorbs any section of the sword that will hit Nagato and If Madara tries shock waves instead, we got the dog summon, the Gedo Mazo, ST and possibly the laser cannon to stop the part of the shockwave that threatens nagato.

This is also assuming that the Phantom Dragon doesn't just neg PS in the first place. Madara cant cut it With PS, it just gets absorbed. Its literally a more dangerous wood dragon.



Hardcore said:


> and well Kn6 broke the black chakra rods but yeah i remember obito using them to paralyze B so pretty inconsistent, but it would be harder for Nagato since he is not intangible like Obito to use them on Kyuubi without getting hurt plus Madara can save Kyuubi like BM B saved B..


 The Bijuu are less chakra dense than their V2 forms. Shit, bee tanked a chidori and Hachibi was cut by chidori. I would say Nagato could only use the rods effectively on kyuubi after using a big enough jutsu to temporarily stun him. Kind of like SS. 



Hardcore said:


> Nagato's strongest attack, CT, won't work since Kurama can destroy it with a TBB..


I agree, but, If Kyuubi was incapacitated before the CT was launched then no. But, even then CT is not the jutsu to even use on someone like full Kurama. Unless Nagato dumped his entire reserves into one Fat ass CT i doubt it would be effective on Kyuubi. Unlike CST which would fuck kyuubi up enough to at least have a few rods jammed into him or have the Gedo Mazo use the Phantom Dragon to start sealing him. Leaving just Madara Vs Nagato.


----------



## Hardcore (Mar 12, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Boy, you are a breath of fresh air, Hardcore. Thank you for bringing some civility.



Thanks mate


kokodeshide said:


> They didnt need to absorb the BD. the Juubi was handling them just fine.
> PS slashes are lethal, put Preta absorbs any section of the sword that will hit Nagato and If Madara tries shock waves instead, we got the dog summon, the Gedo Mazo, ST and possibly the laser cannon to stop the part of the shockwave that threatens nagato.
> 
> This is also assuming that the Phantom Dragon doesn't just neg PS in the first place. Madara cant cut it With PS, it just gets absorbed. Its literally a more dangerous wood dragon.
> ...



not sure about Nagato absorbing the slash, the slashes are too fast instantly covering mountain ranges, plus it is assuming occular structures like Susano'o can be absorbed, too many assumptions, also Itachi was able to stab Nagato with his sword

also Kn6 and V2 B have both shown resistance to ST's force, not sure about CST vs Kurama but I doubt it would cause major damage, considering CT's gravitational pull is stronger and Kurama broke out with a slightly lesser form.

and yeah bijuu forms are bigger but their cores are also dense, only their tails were prone to being easily cut, for instance, Gobi's horn wasn't able to dig a hole through Hachibi but it slightly pierced him, another example would be Obito's shuriken cutting Hachibi's tails but B blocking Itachi's shuriken with his BM hand, there are many more examples, i've made a more detailed post about it not too long ago, but this doesn't matter much here since Nagato does not use piercing attacks in general, except his black rods that should be able to pierce through tails like the rest

point is team Madara and Kurama are too destructive for Nagato to deal with simultaneously in my opinion, being both offensive and defensive at the same time is really difficult


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 12, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> not sure about Nagato absorbing the slash, the slashes are too fast instantly covering mountain ranges, plus it is assuming occular structures like Susano'o can be absorbed, too many assumptions, also Itachi was able to stab Nagato with his sword


FRS is also extremely fast, it stopped dead in its tracks once it hit the preta barrier.
Susano has been absorbed before. The Shinju absorbed it just fine. The Totsuka is a sword, not a chakra sword so its different.




Hardcore said:


> also Kn6 and V2 B have both shown resistance to ST's force, not sure about CST vs Kurama but I doubt it would cause major damage, considering CT's gravitational pull is stronger and Kurama broke out with a slightly lesser form.


CT pull is stronger over time. But assuming second for second, CST is far more powerful. And KN8 broke out of the top layer of the CT, not the core. KN8 is also arguable as strong maybe stronger than any Bijuu but juubi. As SM Naruto and 50% kyuubi were a close match and KN6 is FAR above SM Naruto. And the CT had already stopped its accumulation phase.



Hardcore said:


> and yeah bijuu forms are bigger but their cores are also dense, only their tails were prone to being easily cut, for instance, Gobi's horn wasn't able to dig a hole through Hachibi but it slightly pierced him, another example would be Obito's shuriken cutting Hachibi's tails but B blocking Itachi's shuriken with his BM hand, there are many more examples, i've made a more detailed post about it not too long ago, but this doesn't matter much here since Nagato does not use piercing attacks in general, except his black rods that should be able to pierce through tails like the rest


Obitos shuriken were like dinosaur sized man lol. But i get your point. Oobitos rods also pierced Gyuukis chest IIRC.



Hardcore said:


> point is team Madara and Kurama are too destructive for Nagato to deal with simultaneously in my opinion, being both offensive and defensive at the same time is really difficult


Except Nagato has the better destruction feats save for the max charged TBB, which madara doesn't seem to use. The gedo mazo is also absurdly powerful, wasn't even hurt by a 4 person attack from Gyuuki, KCM naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and it was only knocked over. Just KCM naruto is a match for 50% kyuubi. Madara has literally zero answer to the phantom dragon or preta path. The amount was ways Nagato could kill him are too much for Madara to deal with. Nagato also is able to use at least FIVE of the paths concurrently through his one body. So he could defend and attack at the same time lol.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 13, 2019)

Nah dude. You started with the hostilities way back when. Called me a liar over something that you are still factually wrong about lmao.  So troll harder. What I'm doing isn't a waste of time, no matter how much you lie to me, other people still benefit from the info I present. Whether you listen at some point or not is irrelevant, I will keep debunking you, so it keep it coming bro, and feel free to continue the greasiness/ trolling, seriously. Like this whole thing was unnecessary if you just stopped ignoring feats. It's literally object identification and acknowledgement of clearly defined facts. We can't even get into a real debate up to now. You claim I'm a sheep yet you side with all the Nagato fanboys who rate my thread funny and have nothing to add and ignore Kishimoto drawing him being one shotted on panel, shit diff. Your typically not one to ignore feats, but oh well. But like,   Lol, like, don't worry bro. I still have a lot of respect for you bro. I meant it when I said I think you are easily one of the smartest people I have seen on here general, but you want to be greasy bro, so be it. I come at with you with even more grease than a Mc donalds cheeseburger and even more facts until you quit arguing against canon, or actually prove me wrong without ignoring every manga fact in existence lol.


kokodeshide said:


> It is literally describes the same as body flicker with one added effect. And yet you still insist it is different. Both are high speed movement. each are used in a different way.





kokodeshide said:


> You say they summon something, that goes directly against the manga and databooks explanation of it. You are denying canon, buddy.




Me, denying canon???You literally ignore feats. When the characters use Body Flicker it's radically different from when  they use substitution. You ignored V2 Ayy because it one shots your argument. you ignored the clear display of Itachi's body flicker because it one shots your argument. The jutsu even have completely different Ranks. If They are the same jutsu then why is Substitution E rank while Body Flicker is D rank. Keep lying to me, I find it really funny at this point.

*Spoiler*: _Yamato's Clone Body Replacement_ 






Dude, stop behaving like a lying liar, seriously. Yamato was entrapped inside Sasori's former shell and then he jumped in the air. Then in an instant he created a wooden clone of himself and then reappeared in mid air and fell safely to the ground, quite a distance away from where he previously was. He did it perfectly. Created the optical illusion perfectly and left a clone in his place to take the attack.  I know he did it right after getting his arm cut by Kabuto because he is still holding his wound even after he escaped the snakes with substitution. Troll harder.







The databook even says Yamato created his doll in an instant, just before the attack essentially. This doesn't contradict Sasuke's explanation, but his explanation is still incomplete. The wooden doll wasn't previously present anywhere in the environment, it was literally created just before the attack landed after the necessary seals were woven.

You also still can't explain where Animal Path's log came from in the middle of the rain village lmao. Not a tree in sight. You are dishonest af. Humor me on where he ran to get that log while being tied by lion's mane. I'll wait.


No where does the databook say it's Body Flicker, so keep up the lying. The sharingan can assess chakra, yet neither Kakashi or Sasuke could see Itachi's substitution despite standing literally just a couple feet away.


*Spoiler*: _Itachi vs the Konoha Jounin_ 












Like I said, Kishimoto is pretty clear about Body Flicker. He draws movement lines or other clear indicators of motion or the usual props associated with Body Flicker when it happens in real time on panel.  We already know Kurenai can track Itachi's regualr movement. Itachi is fast in terms of running, but nothing particularly extradorinary when it comes to Body Flicker. I'm no blind fanboy. I respect Itachi's abilities just like even his enemies do. Obito respected him. Black Zetsu respected him, and they have every reason not to given his role in the organization.  I'm well aware that Itachi is slower than the likes of V2 Ayy, you are the one actually wanking his running speed. I simply give credit for his mastery of a clear teleportation technique dude, so troll harder. Itachi didn't move a fucking inch dude. He is holding shuriken and is simply talking. Yet in the next panel another Itachi appears directly behind Kakashi. If he used Body Flicker, where is the movement lines? Why didn't anyone see or hear him coming? Kurenai legit can track the dude's speed but called him superhuman. She literally saw a shadow clone appear directly behind Kakashi out of nowhere. We know Kakashi can't replicate what Itachi did. If he could, then he wouldn't have wasted time swimming underwater, a slower action. Itachi clearly used the Clone Body Replacement technique there, but he used it in an unorthodox and clever way, and he uses a shadow clone as the "wooden log"  so it's the perfect way to feint, unlike Yamato's wooden doll, and he leaves no smoke or other easily visible evidence of the substitution. A true ninja.







kokodeshide said:


> Do you not realize that Itachi did the switch right after he shot the fireball while their line of sight was blocked? This is common sense, bro.



I swear I'm counting the days until you stop lying to me. If he did it when their line of sight was blocked, why didn't Nagato say a peep about it if he can supposedly sense it? The BRO IS HOLDING HIM by the NECK, and even going by your logic Nagato is already holding a shadow clone and doesn't even know it yet ROFL.  Nice job debunking yourself. Holy shit and you have nerve to question my mental health. Naruto didn't sense shit, and Killer Bee didn't sense shit either, but his real self was already on a skydiving trip.
When the fireball disappears Nagato is still holding Itachi, and even when the fireball is launched we still clearly see Nagato holding him. Killer Bee literally slices it in the next panel and then we clearly can see that Itachi was standing in the same spot as Killer Bee and naruto are watching him.



*Spoiler*: _Itachi's fireball scene:_ 











Killer Bee is clearly surprised that the real Itachi was above him after the shadow clone was dispelled. He was caught off guard because Itachi TELEPORTED above them and then cruised with freefall.  It's an E rank technique, but it's established that using Body Replacement with shadow clones is not a common feat, otherwise Kurenai wouldn't have called it superhuman. The shadow clone was dispelled and it's very clearly a shadow clone release you see there. Stop lying to me.
You even lied to me about Itachi's method of revealing his subterfuge. When He caught Killer Bee in genjutsu, he SHOWED HIM he was in genjutsu before verbally warning him about it. :


So Itachi released the clone and that was more than sufficient because Nagato and naruto said they could see him.

We know for a fact that Killer Bee has no issues following Itachi's regular movement speed and body flicker Speed. He never landed a blow, but we see him making solid attempts and keeping up to a good degree. And guess what, there are friggin MOVEMENT LINES on Itachi:

Killer Bee vs Itachi's physical speed/Body Flicker speed/combat speed
*Spoiler*: _Fool ya Fool_ 



:


Killer Bee can clearly perceive Itachi's movement  and chase after him.





In this last scan you can clearly see Itachi flickering from the ground to Nagato's bird. Movement lines are drawn for a reason.

Even here , although Itachi took Bee off guard here, it's still very clearly body Flicker because of the movement lines in the background as well as on Itachi, and there was a big ass smokescreen in front of Bee, so no surprise he didn't notice Itachi coming:








So, troll harder.





kokodeshide said:


> So you completely disregard the manga. There is no use in talking to you. The manga clearly says they havent met up since orochimaru left. regardless of the timeline, that is a fact. yet you say that their words dont matter to prove your BS point. You are the definition of a blind fanboy. You have sunk so low that you even say the akatsukis OWN WORDS are less valuable than jiraiyas when talking about themselves. Wow. I didnt think you could get this bad.




Keep up the greasiness bro. So we are downplaying Jiraiya now? Before you wanking him by bringing up "Itachi running away" when you know for dam sure the real reason he went to the Konoha that day.  You even tried to play it off by subtly admitting that Itachi protects konoha, but you were still dishonest enough to keep it as a counterargument anyway. What a 180 degree turn. Just shows bias at this point, you use Jiraiya however is convenient for your argument.
If Jiraiya is such a second hand source, then why did Itachi and Kisame react like this to the intel he gave Kakashi?:


*Spoiler*: _Jiraiya shit diffs the Akatsuki's secret_ 










Itachi nearly had to sacrifice the three jounin against his will because of the quality of Jiraiya's intel. Jiraiya legit almost ruined Itachi's plans for minimizing damage control. Luckily for Itachi, he had already  reasoned that more backup was on it's way, so he got a little lucky that Guy was on the way. What Kakashi said here was so dangerous that Itachi couldn't just sweep it under the rug in front of Kisame easily at all. Their reaction bubbles say it all.

And I never said that they met up as a group after Orochimaru left, what are you smoking? They clearly re met as a group for the first time after Sasuke "defeated" naruto at the valley of the end.  After Oro left, Itachi Kisame and Sasori were sent to recruit Deidara to replace Oro then Akatsuki moved strictly in pairs.  I said that RECENTLY or in RECENT YEARS they started moving in pairs instead of as a group. 7 years doesn't make any sense, so I disregard it as an accurate statement, so don't cry foul play when you are citing a clear continuity mistake. The timeline matters alot, rofl, because then that gives a more accurate date for when they transitioned. Either way, you are still pointlessly behaving like a lying liar.

Even in part two when they show Kisame inducting Itachi as his partner, there isn't necessarily a continuity error. Akatsuki could have been given duos from the get go but they still moved as a group for most missions, prior to that. Which makes sense. The goal was always to capture bijuu, but  they were also focused on being hired by countries/villages as mercernaries to make money/corner the market. Nagato, Zetsu, and Obito have shown the ability to plan ahead. When the time was right, Akatsuki switched to strictly moving as duos, simple. This would explain how Orochimaru randomly caught Itachi out alone all in the woods with no Kisame in sight. There was clearly more flexibility in how the Akatsuki operated prior to Orochimaru leaving, so don't know what your problem is.

The only reason I brought this up is to debunk your lies about Itachi running from Jiraiya because he was portrayed to be weaker.  When he mentions backup here in the Viz, he was clearly referring to Akatsuk. Name one time the Akatsuki use fodders for backup. I know, they use them to transform into CLONES of other akattsuki membersi:

*Spoiler*: _I guess Jiraiya soloes your boi Nagato HAHA_ 











kokodeshide said:


> And yet, your value is tremendously less than Nagatos, how funny, even with your BS calc its trash compared to Nagatos.





kokodeshide said:


> I didnt ignore PS at all. It's up to you to tell me the value of PS defense. It failed to tank a large mountain buster yet you think it takes an island buster?




HAHA you just don't get it. I one shotted you dude. Your entire premise for Nagato>Hashi/Madara for months now was that despite what the canon very frigging clearly told us in more than one way, Nagato is stronger because of your calcs lmaoooo. But guess what, your back is against the wall now and you don't have much of a counter. You don't know the length of the valley. The website I based my calc on  used reasonable conjecture about the speed and time it takes to run from the Leaf to the Sand, but they still made somewhat arbitrary deductions that make the length a low end even if the valley only covers the land of sound's border with the land of Fire. The characters already told us Hashi and Madara were comparable to the Sage of Six paths. If Hashirama barely dented the ground, then why do multiple characters describe his feats as world shattering? The bro redrew the world maps with his valley, low diff, and it even became a border between the land of fire and land of sound, possibly more. Madara's PS literally decapitated 6 mountains plus several of Hashirama's buddha hands, and lifted them all up. His weaker PS as an Edo easily cleaved distant mountains and busted the remnants of his meteorite with the air pressure from a casual slash, low diff, easily calcs to large mountain/large island/ even as high as small country with those feats. He swings his blade several times in quick sucession and he shits on Nagato who has to literally bleed and push his body to his limits to output an attack that Hashirama and Madara would be forced to respect. The bro's lifespan shortened because he literally outputting too much chakra than his body can handle, and is doing damage to himself, which is why Konan said he can't take anymore. The bro wasn't even fighting for anywhere close to 24 hours either.



kokodeshide said:


> Clearly came from outerspace? thats why it was moving so slow, right?



Troll harder dude. Kabuto said Madara is a Sage of Six paths. The real Sage of Six paths created the moon. The rinnegan clearly has influence over celestial bodies, that's the whole point of Deva, control over space and time and gravity. Madara used a massive bansho tenin, which is why his susano'o chakra needed to be recruited with handseals as well.  The meteoroid sure as shit wasn't slow and sure as shit was summoned from outerspace, which is why it has that splashing heat effect. Clearly remnants of the ablation it experienced back when it was still a meteor entering the atmosphere. It was absolutely moving at 11,000 meters per second. You wank Nagato for struggling to make a 55 teraton attack? Try 275 teratons of TNT for Madara casually dropping 2 meteorites without any strain and making a mini earthquake that was felt as far the shinobi headquarters, almost all calcs I have seen put it at country level lmao... and you don't even need calcs to reason that, just the size of them and the fact the tremor was felt kilometers away is enough info, as well as the reaction of the people at the headquarters.  If the meteor was so slow, then why did the characters say they can't outrun it given their superhuman speeds?



kokodeshide said:


> You are simply wasting your time. You didnt even address what i was saying then added shit that proves my fuckin point.
> 
> Base Bee doesnt have the chakra of A, yet he still overpowered him.
> Hiruzen alone disproves everything you said. He could only make 2 clones, yet is shown to be one of the absolute top dogs in naruto. If you dont want to address how, Itachi, Kakashi, and Hiruzen can match up with titans of chakra, dont bother responding. Because it is obvious that pure chakra doesnt mean anything when comparing 2 SEPARATE ninja.



LMAOOOO bro .  This is is something else. Never said that having less chakra means you can't matchup. Just debunking your claims that Nagato is stronger physically, which I saw you claiming in your first post of this thread.  

He has less stamina than Madara and Hashi by miles. He inherently has less firepower and less strength all things kept even in comparing ninjutsu to ninjutsu. Madara and Nagato have more ammunition and can last longer. I'm the moron but you can't even follow my arguments anymore and also apparently are struggling a bit to recall that i clearly also stated that Madara and Hashi also shit on Nagato in every other stat too lmaoooo. Better reflexes, better speed, better durability, better experience. So yeah.   You also exaggerate the difference between Bee and Ayy. I looked back at the scene, and Ayy was clearly underestimating Bee. When Ayy got really , really bloodlusted, he swatted away Bee like a fly so far away that Naruto and Tsunade and Ayy look tiny on panel. and Killer Bee noted that Ayy was at full power and would certainly be capable of killing naruto if he landed his punch. and don't play dumb. I argue for Itachi alot and I'm aware he is no stamina beast. He doesn't need to be one though when he put 22 kunai directly into Nagato's  field of vision without Nagato being able to mentally react due to finding a blind spot of sorts. Quite a large blindspot given that the kunai went directly at their eyes and were clearly looking at them too. Guess Nagato's shared vision was turned off too, when he was established to be able to see exactly what his summons see.

You make excuses all the time. Kabuto never said anything about Nagato being distracted by naruto and Bee, he said the problem were the kunai . Kabuto was absolutely on full alert for Itachi, but Nagato got embarrased 3 times, low diff, just like he gets embarrased by the founders in every way.


kokodeshide said:


> And alllllllll the shit you listed here is dogshit to CST.
> 
> CT would rip SS apart. SS cant even hit the ground without breaking, how is it resisting getting ripped to shreds?


Lmao this is wankkkk. half of  Kurama shit diff'd chibaku tensei. SS shit diffs even harder, and also will simply reflect CST.



kokodeshide said:


> Nagato was fine after CT as an edo so, what is your point?


Yeah he was fine in the same way Itachi was "fine" when it came to maintaining susano'o as an edo lmaoooo. Let's see if you get my drift here. The bro when ALIVE barely fought for a few hours and yet CST shortened his lifespan. Even in his previous uses it was shortening his lifespan according to Konan.




kokodeshide said:


> See this here? Definition of absolute clown. The shockwaves are of punches hitting the ground, not air bursts from hitting themselves. jesus, common sense, kid.



Oh my god you are liar. Hashirama was curving the hands directly into Susano'o and they were relatively right next to each other, the upper half of kyuubi is blocked by the smoke. SS and kurama were right next to the ocean, yet you clearly see the explosion expanding for kilometers into the mainland. Troll harder. The shockwaves created the valley bro, keep up  the downplay bro.....




kokodeshide said:


> No one survived being in the blast without Katsuyu. thats a durability feat for Katsuyu.
> Keep up the wank, keep up proving you are a sheep who cant think for himself. Keep saying several hundred kilotons is bigger than several hundred gigatons. Clown of the earth i swear.



Yeah, that's why we don't see any  large katsuyu sitting next to Tsunade or her anbu right??? Even after Pain flies in the air, we don't see any katsuyu  next to Tsunade. She still had time to activate a jutsu to give her remaining forehead chakra to all katsuyu spread throughout the village. CST is being wanked to hell and back . It gets reflected back at Nagato by PS or even Mokujin, SS is spite lmao....


kokodeshide said:


> Prove that Madaras rod control is better than Nagatos. I'll wait.
> And hashirama isnt madara, bro.



Madara's rod control is better because he is better than Nagato in every way, that's the whole moral of the story LMAO. Madara chose nagato to be the third ridoku, don't get it twisted bro. The bro mastered the rinnegan techniques in old age. Even taught the techniques to a rinneganless Obito despite not having a rinnegan anymore, so he understood all the principles after just a short time being able to wear them with his dwindling reserves.



kokodeshide said:


> hat isn't proof, kid. But I don't expect much from you anymore. You are long gone.



Character statements and feats aren't proof???? only in your headcanon dude.


----------



## kokodeshide (Mar 13, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Nah dude. You started with the hostilities way back when. Called me a liar over something that you are still factually wrong about lmao. So troll harder. What I'm doing isn't a waste of time, no matter how much you lie to me, other people still benefit from the info I present. Whether you listen at some point or not is irrelevant, I will keep debunking you, so it keep it coming bro, and feel free to continue the greasiness/ trolling, seriously. Like this whole thing was unnecessary if you just stopped ignoring feats. It's literally object identification and acknowledgement of clearly defined facts. We can't even get into a real debate up to now. You claim I'm a sheep yet you side with all the Nagato fanboys who rate my thread funny and have nothing to add and ignore Kishimoto drawing him being one shotted on panel, shit diff. Your typically not one to ignore feats, but oh well. But like, Lol, like, don't worry bro. I still have a lot of respect for you bro. I meant it when I said I think you are easily one of the smartest people I have seen on here general, but you want to be greasy bro, so be it. I come at with you with even more grease than a Mc donalds cheeseburger and even more facts until you quit arguing against canon, or actually prove me wrong without ignoring every manga fact in existence lol.


This is not true. You even apologized for initially bringing the greasiness with your Itachi BS. So no, you started this shit, not me.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Me, denying canon???You literally ignore feats. When the characters use Body Flicker it's radically different from when they use substitution. You ignored V2 Ayy because it one shots your argument. you ignored the clear display of Itachi's body flicker because it one shots your argument. The jutsu even have completely different Ranks. If They are the same jutsu then why is Substitution E rank while Body Flicker is D rank. Keep lying to me, I find it really funny at this point.
> *Spoiler*: _Yamato's Clone Body Replacement_
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, Just say kishimoto is wrong in his own manga. 

Body flicker and substitution are both SPEED. That is a fact. Why are you ignoring this?


ThirdRidoku said:


> I swear I'm counting the days until you stop lying to me. If he did it when their line of sight was blocked, why didn't Nagato say a peep about it if he can supposedly sense it? The BRO IS HOLDING HIM by the NECK, and even going by your logic Nagato is already holding a shadow clone and doesn't even know it yet ROFL. Nice job debunking yourself. Holy shit and you have nerve to question my mental health. Naruto didn't sense shit, and Killer Bee didn't sense shit either, but his real self was already on a skydiving trip.
> When the fireball disappears Nagato is still holding Itachi, and even when the fireball is launched we still clearly see Nagato holding him. Killer Bee literally slices it in the next panel and then we clearly can see that Itachi was standing in the same spot as Killer Bee and naruto are watching him.
> 
> 
> ...


I havent lied about a damn thing. Show me a single thing. please. 

And again, you AND I have no idea when itachi used the substitution. But it doesnt make sense for him to have done in after the fireball disappeared. And, Nagato wasnt looking at itachi so it is not an issue that he sub'd out from under him. Rock lee blinked and gaara sub'd away. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> Keep up the greasiness bro. So we are downplaying Jiraiya now? Before you wanking him by bringing up "Itachi running away" when you know for dam sure the real reason he went to the Konoha that day. You even tried to play it off by subtly admitting that Itachi protects konoha, but you were still dishonest enough to keep it as a counterargument anyway. What a 180 degree turn. Just shows bias at this point, you use Jiraiya however is convenient for your argument.
> If Jiraiya is such a second hand source, then why did Itachi and Kisame react like this to the intel he gave Kakashi?:
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Jiraiya shit diffs the Akatsuki's secret_
> ...


Just say it, say akatsuki doesnt know shit about themselves, go ahead.

In my theory, Itachi tells kisame to get them cause he notices Gai coming. It's a perfect cover. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> And I never said that they met up as a group after Orochimaru left, what are you smoking? They clearly re met as a group for the first time after Sasuke "defeated" naruto at the valley of the end. After Oro left, Itachi Kisame and Sasori were sent to recruit Deidara to replace Oro then Akatsuki moved strictly in pairs. I said that RECENTLY or in RECENT YEARS they started moving in pairs instead of as a group. 7 years doesn't make any sense, so I disregard it as an accurate statement, so don't cry foul play when you are citing a clear continuity mistake. The timeline matters alot, rofl, because then that gives a more accurate date for when they transitioned. Either way, you are still pointlessly behaving like a lying liar.
> 
> Even in part two when they show Kisame inducting Itachi as his partner, there isn't necessarily a continuity error. Akatsuki could have been given duos from the get go but they still moved as a group for most missions, prior to that. Which makes sense. The goal was always to capture bijuu, but they were also focused on being hired by countries/villages as mercernaries to make money/corner the market. Nagato, Zetsu, and Obito have shown the ability to plan ahead. When the time was right, Akatsuki switched to strictly moving as duos, simple. This would explain how Orochimaru randomly caught Itachi out alone all in the woods with no Kisame in sight. There was clearly more flexibility in how the Akatsuki operated prior to Orochimaru leaving, so don't know what your problem is.
> 
> ...


Dude, You want to disregard that because it fits your bias, bro. He said 7, could have been 5, either way, the scene stands. Akatsuki did not travel as a group since the Yahiko days. Nothing in the entire manga supports that. You could say could have could have all day, doesnt fuckin work.



ThirdRidoku said:


> HAHA you just don't get it. I one shotted you dude. Your entire premise for Nagato>Hashi/Madara for months now was that despite what the canon very frigging clearly told us in more than one way, Nagato is stronger because of your calcs lmaoooo. But guess what, your back is against the wall now and you don't have much of a counter. You don't know the length of the valley. The website I based my calc on used reasonable conjecture about the speed and time it takes to run from the Leaf to the Sand, but they still made somewhat arbitrary deductions that make the length a low end even if the valley only covers the land of sound's border with the land of Fire. The characters already told us Hashi and Madara were comparable to the Sage of Six paths. If Hashirama barely dented the ground, then why do multiple characters describe his feats as world shattering? The bro redrew the world maps with his valley, low diff, and it even became a border between the land of fire and land of sound, possibly more. Madara's PS literally decapitated 6 mountains plus several of Hashirama's buddha hands, and lifted them all up. His weaker PS as an Edo easily cleaved distant mountains and busted the remnants of his meteorite with the air pressure from a casual slash, low diff, easily calcs to large mountain/large island/ even as high as small country with those feats. He swings his blade several times in quick sucession and he shits on Nagato who has to literally bleed and push his body to his limits to output an attack that Hashirama and Madara would be forced to respect. The bro's lifespan shortened because he literally outputting too much chakra than his body can handle, and is doing damage to himself, which is why Konan said he can't take anymore. The bro wasn't even fighting for anywhere close to 24 hours either.


What are you talking about. Your calc is LOWER you fuckin idiot. How is this so hard to understand? Kilotons(Hashiramas VotE)<Megatons<Gigatons(Pains CST)<Teratons(Pains CT)

You are literally scoring on your own basket and cheering like a fucking dumbass. Read this clearly. THE NUMBER YOU PUT FORWARD IS FAR LOWER THAN CST SO STOP PRETENDING ITS NOT.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Troll harder dude. Kabuto said Madara is a Sage of Six paths. The real Sage of Six paths created the moon. The rinnegan clearly has influence over celestial bodies, that's the whole point of Deva, control over space and time and gravity. Madara used a massive bansho tenin, which is why his susano'o chakra needed to be recruited with handseals as well. The meteoroid sure as shit wasn't slow and sure as shit was summoned from outerspace, which is why it has that splashing heat effect. Clearly remnants of the ablation it experienced back when it was still a meteor entering the atmosphere. It was absolutely moving at 11,000 meters per second. You wank Nagato for struggling to make a 55 teraton attack? Try 275 teratons of TNT for Madara casually dropping 2 meteorites without any strain and making a mini earthquake that was felt as far the shinobi headquarters, almost all calcs I have seen put it at country level lmao... and you don't even need calcs to reason that, just the size of them and the fact the tremor was felt kilometers away is enough info, as well as the reaction of the people at the headquarters. If the meteor was so slow, then why did the characters say they can't outrun it given their superhuman speeds?


HAHAHAHAH. He created the moon FROM the earth and MADE it a celestial body you fuckin dolt. That doesn't mean he has control over celestial bodies.

And you must not know a damn thing about meteors if you think that it was from space. First of he says he SUMMONED it, not pulled it. And 2, meteors of that size would hit the ground before you even registered it. Saying it moved that fast makes onoki have the greatest durability feat in Naruto.


And them saying they cant outrun it means they cant outrun the impact. The meteor itself isnt even that large. PS is much bigger. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> LMAOOOO bro . This is is something else. Never said that having less chakra means you can't matchup. Just debunking your claims that Nagato is stronger physically, which I saw you claiming in your first post of this thread.
> 
> He has less stamina than Madara and Hashi by miles. He inherently has less firepower and less strength all things kept even in comparing ninjutsu to ninjutsu. Madara and Nagato have more ammunition and can last longer. I'm the moron but you can't even follow my arguments anymore and also apparently are struggling a bit to recall that i clearly also stated that Madara and Hashi also shit on Nagato in every other stat too lmaoooo. Better reflexes, better speed, better durability, better experience. So yeah. You also exaggerate the difference between Bee and Ayy. I looked back at the scene, and Ayy was clearly underestimating Bee. When Ayy got really , really bloodlusted, he swatted away Bee like a fly so far away that Naruto and Tsunade and Ayy look tiny on panel. and Killer Bee noted that Ayy was at full power and would certainly be capable of killing naruto if he landed his punch. and don't play dumb. I argue for Itachi alot and I'm aware he is no stamina beast. He doesn't need to be one though when he put 22 kunai directly into Nagato's field of vision without Nagato being able to mentally react due to finding a blind spot of sorts. Quite a large blindspot given that the kunai went directly at their eyes and were clearly looking at them too. Guess Nagato's shared vision was turned off too, when he was established to be able to see exactly what his summons see.
> 
> You make excuses all the time. Kabuto never said anything about Nagato being distracted by naruto and Bee, he said the problem were the kunai . Kabuto was absolutely on full alert for Itachi, but Nagato got embarrased 3 times, low diff, just like he gets embarrased by the founders in every way.


You are lying again. 

Also, Itachi doesnt need to be a stamina beast but Nagato does, hahahahaha bias in its final form.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Lmao this is wankkkk. half of Kurama shit diff'd chibaku tensei. SS shit diffs even harder, and also will simply reflect CST.


He broke out of the top, and that was KN8, not Kurama. Both of wich have firepower in the gigatons, FAR above SS.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah he was fine in the same way Itachi was "fine" when it came to maintaining susano'o as an edo lmaoooo. Let's see if you get my drift here. The bro when ALIVE barely fought for a few hours and yet CST shortened his lifespan. Even in his previous uses it was shortening his lifespan according to Konan.


Dude....your point was that madara summoned meteor without strain....track your own fuckin points.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Oh my god you are liar. Hashirama was curving the hands directly into Susano'o and they were relatively right next to each other, the upper half of kyuubi is blocked by the smoke. SS and kurama were right next to the ocean, yet you clearly see the explosion expanding for kilometers into the mainland. Troll harder. The shockwaves created the valley bro, keep up the downplay bro.....


Not air burst shockwaves, buddy. learn what that means. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah, that's why we don't see any large katsuyu sitting next to Tsunade or her anbu right??? Even after Pain flies in the air, we don't see any katsuyu next to Tsunade. She still had time to activate a jutsu to give her remaining forehead chakra to all katsuyu spread throughout the village. CST is being wanked to hell and back . It gets reflected back at Nagato by PS or even Mokujin, SS is spite lmao....


Yeah bro, cause she was on the fuckin edge. common sense, kid.
It gets reflected by an attack over 1000 times weaker than it? how?


ThirdRidoku said:


> Madara's rod control is better because he is better than Nagato in every way, that's the whole moral of the story LMAO. Madara chose nagato to be the third ridoku, don't get it twisted bro. The bro mastered the rinnegan techniques in old age. Even taught the techniques to a rinneganless Obito despite not having a rinnegan anymore, so he understood all the principles after just a short time being able to wear them with his dwindling reserves.


Bias, so you are saying that it is because it is, bias, pure bias. No actual proof. Concession accepted.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Character statements and feats aren't proof???? only in your headcanon dude.


You are using a statement that said he was taught it, not that he can use it, he shows direct knowledge that he cant. he has no feats with it other than the outer path. Madara used preta all through the war, why didnt obito?


----------



## X III (Mar 14, 2019)

Well, this is gonna be my last response to this thread, since this has been going on for a while. It's been a good one. I'll keep debating you another day, but this is the end...for now. 



kokodeshide said:


> God damn it...You got my favorite bleach character as your avy, Now I have to like you more.






kokodeshide said:


> It doesn't line up with the databook because the databook gives a vague statement. but w/e. You are free to chose directly going against the manga to try and fluff hashiramas power.


Then we'll have to agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> Isometric and plyometric are the only types of strength. SM has shown power in both types. A lifting feat is a Isometric feat. A striking feat is a plyometric feat. A hold is also a Isometric feat so it would be considered the same. You could make an argument that throwing the rhino is a plyo metric feat, but you can also argu that plyometric movements beat Isometric movements yet SM naruto coulndnt power out of Pains hold at least not right away.


Well, a case could be made that Preta Path had been absorbing Chakra right off the bat, limiting Naruto's strength.

But if not that, you'd have to say that Preta Path has, at least to an extent, SM Naruto levels of strength.



kokodeshide said:


> I agree, next to no effect. similar to the effect on A3.


Well, the attack, long-term, didn't really have *any *effect on A3 due to his resilience. But the FRS actually managed to stun Kurama for a short while and cause scuffs. But yeah, it had a small effect. Not a big effect, of course.



kokodeshide said:


> the difference is nearly nothing. Because both are simply masses of only chakra.


It's weird, because Chakra Avatars are literally the Bijuu's Chakra taking the form of an avatar...resembling the Bijuu. Are the Bijuu stated to be literal incarnates of Chakra? Or are they just beasts with huge Chakra?



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, but that didn't defeat him.
> 
> When you say poison, you got me thinking killing poison. Not sleeping poison. What would hashirama do to Kyuubi or Juubi once they are asleep, absolutely nothing.


Idk. Poke it in the eye? But even so, it should still be counted as a win via incapacitation, right?



kokodeshide said:


> So they are not equals then. At their individual max, they are not equals. Sasuke needed TWO enhancements to compete.


Yeah, but I'm not talking about Sasuke without his enhancements. The version of Sasuke who competed with Naruto was the Sasuke *with *the amps, which is the Sasuke I'm talking about. I'm not saying sole EMS Sasuke is comparable to BSM. I'm saying Kurama amped EMS Sasuke with the CM amp is comparable.



kokodeshide said:


> If Naruto aimed for Sasukes chest as sasuke did for naruto, sasuke would have died. naruto would just regen, as he did.
> 
> They are nothing like TBB


Eh, true enough. But it was still a high diff fight, since Naruto passed out in the end. And Sasuke also didn't want to kill Naruto. An argument could be made that he knew Naruto would regen and targetted his chest to incapacitate him. But I'd say that's a reach, so I wouldn't argue it.



kokodeshide said:


> Oral Rebirth isn't saving him at that point. he neads his head and mind intact.
> Head attacks happen quite a bit. At the very least neck attacks happen often. Thats the go to place for a killing strike. See, Zabuza, kakashi, minato, orochimaru, sasuke etc etc.


Well, depends. Orochimaru could have Oral Rebirthed before Hiruzen went for the brain.

Also, how come Hiruzen didn't go for the headshot if that could have happened? He had already sealed Hashirama/Tobirama, so Orochimaru was the only one left. Instead of going through RDS, wouldn't a kunai through the brain been a lot easier? That leads me to believe he most likely couldn't have done it.



kokodeshide said:


> Since part one minus ONE moment. Jiraiya even says naruto can control up to 3 tails.


Can you give me a scan?

If he could control them, I'm surprised he never thought of using them against Kakuzu.



kokodeshide said:


> Yes, and all the feats of a Jinchuriki surpass the bijuu, even in durability.


Examples?



kokodeshide said:


> Exactly my point, so you cant say im wrong about simply saying V4<PS


Yeah, the difference is never shown.

I'm not saying *necessarily* that you're wrong, but we literally *can't *tell because it's an unquantifiable. V4 has no feats.



kokodeshide said:


> Because she did nearly die. From many many times a dose lethal to a damage sponge like orochimaru.
> 
> 400x because Orochimaru withstood maybe a second. and assuming Katsuyu withstood 400 seconss it would be 400x times But in reality, even if it was 100 seconds thats still WAY better.


We agree then.



kokodeshide said:


> Because a Jinchuriki is ALWAYS stronger than its Bijuu. ALWAYS. They say in the manga that BM is STRICTLY to learn the strongest move of a Bijuu, not that that is the strongest form. V2 Bee slaughters Gyuuki.


Then why did Bee use BM against Team Taka? V2 should't dealt with them.

Why was it explicitly stated that Bee being unable to go BM against Kisame was a , even though V2 is superior? (that scan flat out also has Bee stating that BM is too powerful and that they'll go V2 instead for that reason)

Why did Bee use BM for pretty much the entirety of the second half of the War Arc if V2 was superior?

I think it's made quite clear that BM is superior, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> No, his snakes were disintegrating, meaning he was no longer touching him.






kokodeshide said:


> His cloak isnt a temperature effect, its a corrosive effect. Why would Kusanagi gets harmed when it seems to be just flesh that is burned.


Doesn't metal also corrode?



kokodeshide said:


> Again, the issue here is, Nagato wasn't using his full power either, and he won, casually. Madara wasn't using his full power, but was using powers BETTER SUITED than his own to fight Bee and Naruto and couldn't capture them. He lost lost right after. If Juubi wasn't about to be born you could assume that Bee, Naruto and nearly dead Gai would have won as Bee does have sealing jutsu.
> 
> All in all, how does that make you think EMS madara does better? EMS madara does significantly worse.


Once again, Nagato fought against far weaker versions of Naruto and Bee. And yes, he Nagato used his strongest technique canonically in the Manga. The only technique he could have used in that fight that would've been worth anything would have been CST, and I'm 99% sure that the trio could have dealt with that.

I can't assume they would've won, because you still haven't proven Madara lost then and there. Why was he not *at least* on his way back, rather than just sitting there all calm on a rock the entire time? We'll have to agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> You cant prove or even imply that gais hirudora vs Kisame was weaker than a NEARLY DEAD gais vs Madara.
> 
> A4 was able to crack susano, with his power. Base Bee > V1 A4 in power. V1 should be closer to V2 A4. and V2 Bee is FARRRRR beyond that. Tsunades punch did a bit more than A4s, her her kick blew the Susano away.


Hirodura had no killing intent, was used underwater, and Kisame was guarded by Daikodan as well.

I acknowledge that Guy was nearly dead against Madara. But you still haven't proven Madara's Susano'o actually broke. We'll have to agree to disagree.

A4's chop did . It was only when he got lightened by Ohnoki that he could do anything.

Base Bee is, at best, slightly better than A4 in strength. He did manage to overpower him once (with the help of classic emotions = power ex machina), but that would be ignoring the   that Bee either got beaten or they tied.



kokodeshide said:


> A C1 could not do the same thing to 5 bijuu.
> 
> Nor could it do this.
> ugo states that Karin was practically out of chakra and her healing would be ineffective


Based on what, tho?

The first feat is irrelevant because we're comparing the same Bijuu that was beaten by C1 to the roar.

The second feat is just destroying a couple of buildings.



kokodeshide said:


> So 7+tentacle+Kinkaku divided by 12 limbs is more than 7 divided by 4 limbs? You arent looking at this the right way. they have nearly the same chakra, the Juubi has an unknown amp, yes, but still, if Hiashi can stop a tail by himself, what makes you think the Mazo couldnt stop all fuckin 10? Or at least half.


Well, I don't think that's the right way to look about things in the first place because that would imply certain limbs are > others (Kin/Gin > Tentacle, etc.) which doesn't make much sense. That's also ignoring the fact that Juubi has an unmeasurable amount of NE and is stated to be (and by feats is) > all Tailed Beasts combined. But overall, Gedo Mazo beating a technique the Juubi had trouble with simply doesn't make sense.



kokodeshide said:


> ................Nagato does have Senju DNA. He is an uzumaki..... with Uchiha eyes...So he is the same exact thing they are, but better.


No, he has no Uchiha DNA. The only thing he has are the eyes. That'd be like saying Kakashi is an Uchiha for having the Sharingan, which we know isn't the case.



kokodeshide said:


> Weight is just force. KN6 applied more force than ST which is enough force to launchs the massive force of 3 charging frogs each of which is heavy enough to put kyuubi down and hold him


KN6 isn't as heavy as 3 boss summons, yet it could not only resist, but also redirect ST. So it's obvious the weight analogy doesn't work.



kokodeshide said:


> Both of which are true. the first time we see sasuke he could cancel out Deidaras strongest jutsu. Any ninja with electric chakra could cancel Deidaras jutsu.
> But SM Naruto isnt stronger, he was beating the hell out of him though. So While kyuubi is the stronger person, Naruto was good enough to beat him. How many more FRS could kyuubi have taken.


But no, you flat out stated SM Naruto is *greater than *(>) Kurama. That implies you think he's stronger. And IIRC, you said it was a big difference as well.

But anyway, as long as we agree on it, then it's okay:

50% Kurama's > SM Naruto.

Naruto managed to knock him around, but didn't do any actual damage.



kokodeshide said:


> Except they only notice the Mazos chakra disappeared AFTER the explosion.


They could have noticed earlier, then actually stated it later. Or the Mazo turned into the Juubi at the same exact time the TBB hit it.

Regardless, it makes no sense. Why would they hit the Mazo with the attack if it could just tank it? I think you're misinterpreting the feat, tbh. I'll just agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> It demonstrates that KN9 is NOT kurama.


And? 50% Kurama is still stronger, right?



kokodeshide said:


> No, You expect DRAMATIC inconsistency. I don't even need to calc it, just a basic comparison of objects works. In my Nagato thread I made a comparison pic, you'd have to Make the madara and Hashirama statues literally 30 times the size of the hokage mountain to say the crater of the VotE was the same.
> 
> Also, what realllly irks me is, if you arent going off calcs, how can you say Madara or hashirama have more attack power? Madara cuts a few mountains. Nagato demolishes tens of mountains with CT.
> 
> Hashirama carves a valley roughly as wide, but not as tall as the hokage mountain faces. Nagato absolutely dwarfs that. with both CT and CST. So what are you going off of, because visually, Nagato smashes them in Attack power, and when you calc it out, he STILL smashes them. And when you use power scaling, he again, STILL SMASHES. So i dont see what you have to win this argument.


I'm not saying they can overpower CST. I'm saying they can survive it.

And my whole point is that things are inconsistent, so it's best just to go with character statements/scaling than looking at how much AoE their attacks are. I have no doubt in my mind Kishimoto intended Madara/Hashirama to be stronger than Madara, which is why I say they win. Your opinion of Nagato winning is respectable, I just don't agree with it.



kokodeshide said:


> That doesn't make sense. That would mean you all are fuckin stupid and cant debunk a false statement.


Some people can't be bothered to discuss with someone they think is delusional. It's like an adult teaching a toddler how to do division.



kokodeshide said:


> lol to debate anything based off many false premises means your whole point is bunk.


We made several mini points over the course of this debate. So far, we haven't even gotten into much to do with Nagato vs Founders.



kokodeshide said:


> hence why you conceded many many things. Which i applaud you for, others dont do that. But, even still, you remain firm to your opinion despite nearly every point being unraveled.


Once again, I am completely confident that I'm correct here, and I stand firm on my belief that you'll never win me over in Nagato vs Founders.



kokodeshide said:


> Because you are using him being exhausted as a marker for his effects from rinnegan. When Kakashi was tired, using MS killed him. So do i say Kakashi DIED from MS use therefore he sucks. No. You are taking a situation out of context and painting nagato with it.


Eh, not really. When I originally made the point, I was just trying to say Nagato's strongest CT drained him completely and he gave it his all. I didn't even factor in that he was tired, because it was common knowledge.



kokodeshide said:


> And he didn't really use any attacks against mokujin either. and he didnt use ANY against madara.


TBB.

When did Kurama fight Madara?

And the village failed to do any damage to Kurama. Remember how this was a major point for SM Naruto? :ho



kokodeshide said:


> Chakra sucking bugs. Shinos super attack literally has giant bugs that consumed those juubi spawn like nothing. His Susano gets drained.
> Butterfly mode choji.
> Gates users.
> Nara clan holding him.
> ...


Chakra eating bugs have no real limits given for them.

Choji didn't have butterfly mode during the Pain invasion.

Pretty sure Lee and Guy were the only Gates users at this point, and they weren't in the village.

Nara clan has too little feats or hype.

Obito already managed to resist a Byakugan aided Mind Transfer in 2 secs.

Sarutobi fire barrage has too little feats or hype.

I'm assuming Kakashi is Pain Arc and he doesn't get Byakugou Aided Kamui, since he didn't get that in the Pain Arc.

And Naruto only arrived when the village was already lost, so I was assuming he wasn't included.



kokodeshide said:


> Better feats? no. He literally has no jutsu that can one shot the village. Even the meteor gets wrecked.
> Statements? Pain is remarked to be invicible several times, Even by Fukasaku, a fuckin 800 year old toad sage who has seen some shit in his life. He straight up says no one can beat pain without knowledge. EMS Madara has pretty much no hype above this. Obito agrees pain is invincible. Shocked that anyone could have delayed the invincible pain. Leader of akatsuki with POWER, not trickery like in obitos case.


Obito clearly viewed himself stronger than Pain. Even Pain cucked to him (more specifically, to Madara).

Obito felt nothing, even when the entire Akatsuki was used to blackmail him. But when Madara came, that was when he got scared.

Even Naruto/Minato imply Obito was stronger.



kokodeshide said:


> I dont think it is shown completely but i do believe he did attack konoha.


Are you talking about the Nine Tails Attack? He was stopped by Hashirama.



kokodeshide said:


> IDK, all i know is that Neji wasn't there, thats as far as i remember.


It's stated Hiashi and Hanabi also weren't there.



kokodeshide said:


> Hinata is a SCRUB. Even as an adult she still isn't a jounin. She is a weak hyuuga. And she still help defend against Juubi attacks. Kaiten from hyuuga are legit. Empty palm blasts from high level hyuuga are enough to block juubi tails. While Hiashi may be the only one that level, Neji is close and a few empty palms from other hyuuga should equal Hiashis.


Didn't Hinata have a Nine Tails amp?



kokodeshide said:


> except to live, but either way its besides the point.


There was no point in doing that there tho.



kokodeshide said:


> Anyone that really thinks Madara can solo a village has never read the manga. No ninja alone was a village threat. period. Hashirama didn't lose to a force above Konoha. The moment the Aburame, Akimichi and Nara clan step out, they are raping Madara. Pain has a special advantage of 6 individual bodies which forces konoha to spread out. Madara doesn't have TBB level power. His is no more than kyuubi with his TBB. and Kyuubi still couldnt beat konoha without his TBB. So how could Madara?


If you want me to, I'll make the thread. "EMS Madara vs Pain Arc Konoha"



kokodeshide said:


> He was, but the juubi was about to awaken, why would he go after them once that happened?


Well, you'd expect him to at least be midway if he was really going back. Instead, he's relaxed sitting on a rock. You really telling me that the *instant *he recovered, the Juubi revived? And he was just sitting relaxed and having some tea? Seems very unlikely.



kokodeshide said:


> No, im pretty sure you were saying that since Pains "Strongest attack" couldnt beat naruto and bee that he couldnt beat naruto and bee.
> Which is absolutely ridiculous.


Pretty sure I didn't say that.

I said that Nagato used his strongest tech against them.



kokodeshide said:


> What??? Yes it is. The databook isnt even exclusively written by Kishimoto. The manga is. Konan repeatedly shows knowledge of Nagatos jutsu, why is it this is the one jutsu she is clueless about. Why would she speak about it SPECIFICALLY killing him because his chakra is low.


Once again, she merely implied that he could use it if he was healthy. Her implication isn't fact. Databook doesn't reinforce it. Nagato surviving RT, which is explicitly stated to have a cost ofone's life, is extremely unlikely. And even if that were to happen, all that proves is Nagato's lifeforce is above Obito/Madara's.



kokodeshide said:


> Teaching him the jutsu doe not mean he can use it, do you understand that? And he failed to demonstrate that he could.


This just seems like denial, bro. Whatever. Agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> No
> 
> ugo states that Karin was practically out of chakra and her healing would be ineffective
> Obito not understanding that he could use Human path then Hell realm to revive Yamato like kabuto was going to do with Bee and Naruto.
> ...


I don't think Naraka Path works that way. Otherwise, the Pain bodies would have come back to life.



kokodeshide said:


> Naruto hitting Obito with Rasenshuriken to seperate the cords to the juubi would have been stopped mighty easily with Preta. And Madara uses preta with no counters MANY times, why wouldnt Obito?


Well, he's already shown Chakra absorption, so this doesn't really help your point. It just leads towards PIS.



kokodeshide said:


> Bullshit, that is baseless speculation. I could say the same thing about itachi and sasuke for any in air use of firball jutsu.


Fair enough, it's speculation. But it's somewhat grounded because Obito stayed in the air for multiple panels, even after he stopped using Kamui.



kokodeshide said:


> Madara was able to. Kisame is able to, Zetsu, Yoroi, Etc. Many ninja are capable of stealing chakra without a special tool.


But Obito's never stated to be able to, has no feats, and had the Rinnegan when he absorbed Chakra. Seems very iffy..



kokodeshide said:


> Thats true, but you know what else is true, thats its absolutely disingenuous to say he was toying around with them when in actuallity he was INCAPABLE of using his full power.


He somewhat was, though. He didn't even fight alongside with the Jins. He just sat there and watched. On top of that, he only started using BM transformations *after *Naruto got BM. The timing just seems very convenient for Obito to suddenly gain control over the Bijuu power. That's why I think he was toying around, in addition to himself not fighting until his Jins were defeated of course.



kokodeshide said:


> You're wrong. First off, the partial transformation is a FAR lesser mode. and, He got 2 V2s absorbed. Plus Kisame isnt taking anywhere near as much chakra with each hit than is Bee was COVERED by chakra. Hence why i say 3, as 2 V2's were taken, plus some of a v1 and some of a partial transformation and then some from basic hits to base bee. Bee in base has a full V1 cloak of chakra as his V1 was absorbed then he had to borrow gyuukis. V2 is 10 times as much chakra as V1. So unless Kisame was taking away V1 levels of Bee chakra with every hit during his swarming attack, which is impossible as Bee wasnt even cloaked, then it was no more than an extra V2 cloak. So, 3, maybe even 4 V2 cloaks Is a full Bijuu.


Based on what is Partial Transformation far lesser?

How is V2 ten times V1?



kokodeshide said:


> Oh, you are right, since TBB's are the strongest attack it must also mean they have more chakra than BM. TBB is an attack, V2 is a form. This is basic shit bro.


It most likely does have more Chakra. It's stronger and denser.

And how does Nagato absorb a TBB if it's aimed underneath himself? Can he absorb the explosion?



kokodeshide said:


> ugo states that Karin was practically out of chakra and her healing would be ineffective
> Kabuto directly relates that to ITACHI's skill with Kunai.


Well, Kabuto also said he was the closest to the Six Paths, so he must be wrong!      <-- Your logic  (nah, just playing with you)

But anyway, fair enough.



kokodeshide said:


> Huh? When you use it on the head it instantly zombifies you. You become a drooling mess. Narutos ability to fight soul ripping doesnt matter when your mind is turned off.


I don't remember that happening with Shizune.



kokodeshide said:


> ugo states that Karin was practically out of chakra and her healing would be ineffective


That only says they are Madara's most powerful forces. It doesn't say they're stronger than him.



kokodeshide said:


> His rep wasnt big enough. Konoha doesn't even really say what happened, they keep attacks on the DL to remain powerful looking. Yes, they know akatsukis leader did that, but how? why? what happened? Even team samui didnt knw the extent of what happened to Konoha.
> 
> But to naruto, KCM naruto, Nagato was unbeatable.
> To Fukasaku and Obito, Pain was invincible.
> To Bee, Nagato was a "hella strong mothafucka"


Team Samui came right after the attack, so it's reasonable to assume that not the entire world knew at that point what had happened.

Naruto called Nagato on a league of his own. Didn't say he was unbeatable.
Pain clearly wasn't invincible to Obito. To Fukasaku, yes. Tho Fukasaku never met Madara.



kokodeshide said:


> The issue with your logic when you say shit like, "Kabuto would said", No he wouldn't have. Because it is likely that Indra and Asura were more powerful than Hashirama, and since we know Hamura was Hagoromo level, he would have been in that "Stronger than hashirama" area too. So unless hashirama was stronger than Indra, Ashura and Hamura, that logic does not work. Hashirama is a mythical figure, using him makes more sense.


Does Kabuto know about any of these people?



kokodeshide said:


> Stamina isn't power or abillity. Nowhere is it said that Nagato expends more chakra than Madara per Rinnegan jutsu, you literally made that up. Just like you made up the idea that a fake wielder cant be stronger than the original owner. That only applies to max potential with the eyes.
> 
> Think about it logically. If Madara took Obitos MS as a kid, would he only be restricted to how powerful Obito was at that point? No that's just dumb. Obito had better outer path ability, yet he couldnt even handle 2 rinnegan. Your logic just doesn't fit.


I didn't make it up. It's supported by Kakashi. Itachi flat out states (can't find a good translation, but I guess this will suffice) that Kakashi can't use his eyes to their max potential since he isn't Uchiha.



kokodeshide said:


> No, LITERALLY manipulates him. That is specifically said. It is never said that he believes himself to be stronger. He literally loses the majority of the fights he is in in the series. He is almost beaten by Konan, If Nagato was trying to beat Obito don't you think he would have done a better job than Konan? Nagato also never even acts like Obito is his actual boss. He even directly states his plan IS NOT Infinite tsukuyomi.


Itachi never lost a fight. Is he stronger than Nagato?

He almost got beaten by Konan with prep time (who you yourself had placed higher than Nagato) and knowledge on his abilities.

Nagato was clearly under Obito's wing the whole time.



kokodeshide said:


> Not the point. also, wouldnt have made a difference.


Weren't we comparing Obito to Nagato?



kokodeshide said:


> states


An argument could be made for only BM Bee's TBB being strong enough to do that.



kokodeshide said:


> No, MB was also not even able to blitz him.


Why would that matter though?

And we never saw his Shunshin speed. If you wanna go that route, Kakashi and Guy could coordinate with Naruto.



kokodeshide said:


> But that is absolutely ridiculous. If you said something fuckin 12 years ago am i going to hold you to those words today?
> 
> And Pain as a character is MUCH cooler than Nagato, the guy was a fuckin scary looking monster. Is old madara as cool as young madara? Not to me. Either way. *Nagato isn't even in my top 10.*


Well, I had no clue you didn't update this, and I personally don't believe the bold, but I was just saying you look sort of suspicious saying that Nagato isn't one of your favorites despite believing he's Rinnegan SM Madara level in strength, something not even the biggest of Nagato fans would ever dare to say.

Once again, not claiming you are one, just saying it seems sort of suspicious.



kokodeshide said:


> That CREATED some rubble, it didn't HIT rubble.


True, but why would it matter?



kokodeshide said:


> That is saying that having part senju and Uchiha dna makes you a Sage of the 6 paths. So either she means he can do Izanagi, a similar jutsu to Hagoromos creation jutsu, or She means Danzo, Obito, Nagato, Hagoromo, Madara, Black Zetsu are all Sages of the 6 paths.


Who knows? But Obito is posing as Madara, and he has the power of the Six Paths, and he believes himself superior to Nagato.



kokodeshide said:


> He doesn't just have number proficiency in 1 path, he has number one proficiency in 6 of the 7. Barring JJ.
> 
> He has the best Preta feat, absorbing the V2 cloak.
> He has the best Deva feat, CST and CT.
> ...


Madara absorbed Jinton and Mokuton. Sasuke absorbed Tailed Beast Chakra from all the Tailed Beasts (and was compared to Hagoromo).

Nagato 100% diesn't have the best Deva feat. Madara's CT is easily far more impressive.

Having the only feats doesn't mean he's the only one who can use them. I think the problem with you is you don't share Nagato's feats. You keep them exclusive to Nagato and refuse to scale other characters to them. That's not very nice. 

RT is a lifeforce "feat" (since it never happened). Obito and Madara have better control over everything else. Obito's bondage is stated to be stronger (Madara's would be stronger since we saw they could manifest dragon heads and wrap around the Bijuus' necks). Madara and Obito both have better control over the Mazo for having Uchiha and Senju DNA.



kokodeshide said:


> You are literally rejecting the fact that they are NOT the same jutsu.


No, I'm not. You're rejecting the fact that both Jutsu use Hand Seals, and thus take Chakra.. We've been through this half a million times. It's agree to disagree.



kokodeshide said:


> We know it was in the war, and we know it wasn't a Konoha level force.


Based on what?

Why would the world name someone who died to fodder as the God of Shinobi?

Why ignore the fact he beat EMS Madara? Why ignore the fact he stalemated Edo Madara? Why ignore both versions of Madara claiming inferiority to Hashirama? Ignore that these versions of Madara could easily deal with fodder and destroy the Five Kage once using their full power.

So unless the forces that took Hashirama down were far greater than the Five Kage, that feat is either taken as an outlier because a) sheer common sense because implying that a Demi-God can lose to some fodder when even BOS Sasuke could take down a bunch no diff makes no sense. b) You'd have to intentionally avoid *any *hype whatsoever present in the Manga and look strictly at the databooks (which you were actually saying is less credible than the Manga earlier) in order to come to this conclusion, because the Manga glorifies Hashirama's good feats *far *more than it does his short-comings. c) It should be taken as outlier (assuming the forces really were fodder) since Hashirama's good feats and hype outweigh his bad.



kokodeshide said:


> He has no damage, regen isn't instant.


It is, after absorbing Chakra with Preta Path.



kokodeshide said:


> Not always, but we will see here.


I concede as long as I'm proven wrong, the arguments make sense, and I believe the Manga is supported by all sources of canon plus authorial intent.

But anyway, it's been a fun debate. I guess I'll make the Madara thread now. And yeah, that's it. I guess I'll debate you some time later. And I'll kick your arse in the league. Bai.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> This is not true. You even apologized for initially bringing the greasiness with your Itachi BS. So no, you started this shit, not me.



Selective memory huh? I  apologized because I lost my cool, but it turns out I had every reason to, considering your BS Lies. When you stop with the grease I'll stop too bro.




kokodeshide said:


> Dude, Just say kishimoto is wrong in his own manga.
> 
> Body flicker and substitution are both SPEED. That is a fact. Why are you ignoring this?



Concession accepted. You literally ignored all the evidence. It doesn't  matter if they both use speed. The mechanic by which they use speed is completely different. One teleports you and can summon logs and clones to your previous location, the other is actual physical movement, so troll harder. Kishimoto also never said they functioned the same way, so yeah gtfo.




kokodeshide said:


> I havent lied about a damn thing. Show me a single thing. please.
> 
> And again, you AND I have no idea when itachi used the substitution. But it doesnt make sense for him to have done in after the fireball disappeared. And, Nagato wasnt looking at itachi so it is not an issue that he sub'd out from under him. Rock lee blinked and gaara sub'd away.


What a frigging liar. Databook shows you Yamato summoning a wooden doll and it instantly took his place while he reappeared else where. You are finished man.

Dude, this is how I know you are a liar. You claim that Nagato can *chakra sense* Itachi's  clone feints because hur dur he is a sensor. So what the hell does Nagato's eyes have to do with anything regarding his sensing? Keep track of shit before telling me to keep track of shit.  I know what his eyes have to do with his sensing, absolutely nothing, just another example of you lying then try to sneak your way out of it.  If Substitution is natural movement, why didn't Nagato feel said movement given that he was holding Itachi? The clone was dispelled before Nagato is seen reacting to it. In order for a shadow clone to boof, it must have been created first. Since it was created before it was dispelled,  that means Nagato got feinted. Nagato had no trouble sensing amaterasu, but he failed to sense Koto, failed to sense Itachi's clone feint until after it was made obvious.





kokodeshide said:


> Just say it, say akatsuki doesnt know shit about themselves, go ahead.
> 
> In my theory, Itachi tells kisame to get them cause he notices Gai coming. It's a perfect cover.



The reading comprehension just gets worse and worse. Like I said, Itachi was aware backup was coming, but he was still lucky that said backup was on its way in a timely fashion. If Kakashi revealed that intel even a few minutes earlier, Guy wouldn't have made it in time.



kokodeshide said:


> Dude, You want to disregard that because it fits your bias, bro. He said 7, could have been 5, either way, the scene stands. Akatsuki did not travel as a group since the Yahiko days. Nothing in the entire manga supports that. You could say could have could have all day, doesnt fuckin work.



Furthermore, I never said that Akatsuki doesn't know shit about themselves, so you can take that and shove it back wherever it came from in the huge pile of headcanon you have circulating in that dome of yours. Jiraiya was following Oro's movements for years, so he is a FIRST HAND source for Akatsuki's movements. The only thing Jiraiya was limited in was information about their goals. He knew they were doing small scale cloak and dagger stuff, which we know the Akatsuki's themselves do because they clearly were mercenaries that were hired as far back as the third shinobi world war.  So yeah, troll harder my dude. I want to see how low you will fall.

The "Yahiko days" were before the third shinobi world war. We are talking 20 years+ ago my dude. Plenty of time between the third shinobi world war and up until Oro leaving for them to have moved as a group. I know you are being moronic because you can't give me an accurate date for the last time they met as a group prior to VOTE1 clash between naruto and sasuke. We know they moved as a group because Itachi recognized Orochimaru's hydra. Hidan knows he is the slowest of all the akatsuki. All the other members talk about each other as if they moved around together regularly in the past. 5 years is just an arbitrary number you pulled out of your ass, so I will play your game too. Orochimaru left the Akatsuki 2  years before Itachi returned to Konoha.  There you go.

We know Jiraiya's intel has merit, because the biggest anomaly is that Orochimaru caught Itachi all alone in a forest without Kisame (Itachi's partner) and Sasori (Orochimaru's partner) anywhere in sight. Clearly Akatsuki's movement patterns were different back then. So you're a lying liar to claim that nothing in the manga supports it.




kokodeshide said:


> What are you talking about. Your calc is LOWER you fuckin idiot. How is this so hard to understand? Kilotons(Hashiramas VotE)<Megatons<Gigatons(Pains CST)<Teratons(Pains CT)
> 
> You are literally scoring on your own basket and cheering like a fucking dumbass. Read this clearly. THE NUMBER YOU PUT FORWARD IS FAR LOWER THAN CST SO STOP PRETENDING ITS NOT.



The number I put out for a* small part *of the valley is lower, troll harder bro-zay.  The full length of the valley cannot be accurately determined, but we know that it's on the order of thousands of kilometers, maybe more, so I gave you a ball park low end calc.  As such, I have already one shotted your argument. Since a calculation for the length of the valley cannot be determined,  and since  a tensile strength of PS cannot be calculated, you have no grounds to claim that his power output is weaker than Nagato's. Admit you are wrong while you still have respect with me dude.




kokodeshide said:


> HAHAHAHAH. He created the moon FROM the earth and MADE it a celestial body you fuckin dolt. That doesn't mean he has control over celestial bodies.
> 
> And you must not know a damn thing about meteors if you think that it was from space. First of he says he SUMMONED it, not pulled it. And 2, meteors of that size would hit the ground before you even registered it. Saying it moved that fast makes onoki have the greatest durability feat in Naruto.
> 
> ...



ROFL. He created the moon but then MOVED it into orbit around the Earth, you dolt. Just like Madara MOVED the meteoroid from the asteroid belt and brought it to earth. You can clearly see vapors on the meteor in every panel they show it:

*Spoiler*: _Meteors in B/W and color_ 

















And You can see a similar effect on Juubidara's chibaku tensei meteors.




And I understand meteor physics quite well thank you. The meteorid entered the atmosphere at high speed where friction with the air heats up the  meteoroid  and it becomes a meteor i.e. material on it is vaporized, glows, and ignite with gases in the atmosphere. the effects you see depend on the composition of the meteor. The meteor loses mass and becomes slower. If the meteor is small enough, it will outright be burned to dust in the atmosphere. If it's bigger than that, it will eventually reach terminal velocity and hit the ground  as a meteorite and much of the glowing effect will be gone by then as it has cooled down in most cases unless the meteor was bright enough to be a fireball. Asteroids are actually poor conductors of heat and they will typically be ambient temperature by the time it is near the ground.  If it's MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT though, it will survive the ablation process with most of it's cosmic velocity intact, and the standard low end is 11,000 m/s for that.

LMAO PS is bigger than the REMNANTS of the meteor. The full meteor is calced at 15 km long. PS stands at 2 km tall.
Madara's meteors very clearly have vapors all over it, proving it suffered ablation.

And bro, don't troll me here. This is manga, not real life. The same manga where super sonic characters have trouble moving fast enough to exploit a 5 second cool down. The same manga where Pain has the time to take several physical actions and even speak in his mind in the time it takes for a supposedly massively hyper sonic attack to move a few inches. Speed, reflexes, and timing are all fucked up in the manga because the characters are superhuman and Kishimoto, is well, Kishimoto, and makes thematic fuck ups all the time.

We already know that the naruto countries are on the order of thousands or hundres of thousands of kilometers away from each other. That is certaintly the case for the Land of Frost/Mist  (where the 4th divsion battled Madara) and the Land of Lightning and the Hidden Cloud where Shinobi HQ was.




 They still felt a large tremor from the meteorite collision. The meteorites were still HUGE despite being shrunken by perspective due to the fact the fodders were viewing it from another battlefield.




kokodeshide said:


> You are lying again.
> 
> Also, Itachi doesn't need to be a stamina beast but Nagato does, hahahahaha bias in its final form.



Wow bro what a lying troll. You are pathetic. You lied about Nagato having more stamina and strength than the founders,  I debunk you, now your reading comprehension plummeted to below genin level. I clearly stated the founders outclass him in every way, so keep it up bro. You showing your true colors here. You are like hur dur Nagato absorbs chakra, yet ignore the terrain leveling shockwaves that Hashi and Madara can produce, which ignore Preta. You ignore Hashi countering preta on panel. You ignore that senjutsu chakra shit diffs Nagato as per canon. That's why I don't take you seriously.

And Itachi doesn't need stamina against the founders.  He has most haxed weapons of the verse. Itachi is a better sensor type than Nagato and Itachi can't even change his chakra to sensory mode. Yeah I said it. The bro fought completely blind against Orochimaru and Sasuke after Kirin. His eyes were completely white. We know every ninja, including non sensor types, can sense powerful chakra on a basic level. Itachi legit recognized Orochimaru's serpent by recalling it's "feeling" i.e. Orochimaru's powerful chakra output in that form. He then  bodied his snakes and shit blitz'd Orochimaru and put amaterasu in sasuke all while sick, dying, low on chakra, and hosting burn injuries from Kirin among other injuries, without a single wasted movement. He relied purely on his instincts, skill, experience, sound, smell, and the basal levels of chakra sensing all ninjas have. He dodged Killer Bee's sword strike without even looking at him and despite being distracted by kcm naruto. He was completely blinded by chibaku Tensei smoke, yet still marked and tagged Nagato who was standing much farther away from it than Itachi was  and Nagato had much less obscured vision too. Nagato is literal trash compared to Itachi as the second he can't see  or his precious shared vision is broken almost all his opponents have easily outsmarted him.  But you ignore those feats. Why? Because you are a biased troll when it comes to Nagato, that's why. You don't even understand basic human biology rofl. Nagato's eyes were clearly looking up at the blade. But he couldn't even register an unconscious reflex to the blade's speed, which we know the edo tensei under direct control still do. Nagato reacted to naruto's rasengan.  A3 was caught off guard by rasenshuriken coming at his back but he still instinctively jumped to avoid it.  Even Orochimaru who is immortal and has one of the best durabilities in the series, still lifted up his arm into a response to a surprise attack that he knew couldn't kill him, it's basic biological instinct:





 Kakashi and Zabuza sensed naruto's nine tails chakra and they were nowhere near him and neither of them are sensor types. You wank Nagato's sensing, so now I have to humiliate him again. The bro has an all mighty chakra sensing rain jutsu, yet couldn't recognize Jiraiya's chakra  when he entered the village LMAO. All he could deduce was that the chakra was strong, and he *needed Konan* to find the intruder. The bro can't sense dozens of narutos sitting right next to him, naruto flanking Naraka path with two big ass rasengans from above,  kakashi hiding underground, etc. The only things he has ever sensed are amaterasu(which Black Zetsu also could sense) and Kabuto, which I just rub off as a feat granted by Nagato's experience with chakra modulation. Every sensor has been caught off guard/ been shown to have  to actively knead and maintain chakra for sensory mode, and it's clearly difficult to maintain in battle. We have even seen that Karin  and Kakashi can suppress their chakra to reduce the chance of being sensed. Itachi is a former anbu and he is experienced in stealth, so he definitely knows how to suppress his chakra just like Kakashi did to Kakazu.  It is evident by how he flawlessly feinted Kabuto twice. But you are too much of a sheep to pay attention to details.




kokodeshide said:


> He broke out of the top, and that was KN8, not Kurama. Both of wich have firepower in the gigatons, FAR above SS.



Lying Liar pants on fire. Prove that it's far above SS rofl.



kokodeshide said:


> Dude....your point was that madara summoned meteor without strain....track your own fuckin points.



No, you keep track, as I perfectly keep track. Edo tensei can experience chakra exhaustion as KCM Minato clearly displayed. Madara showed nothing of the sort. Nagato when alive has   alot of chakra, but using CST/CBT require so much chakra from his reserves that it actually kills him slowly to use them as it was clearly damaging his body. It's pretty well documented. The whole reason why everyone has the 8 inner gate limiters is to limit the amount of chakra flowing through you as much as possible , because chakra actually hurts you in large quantities from the inside of you if your body can't handle it. As an Edo, that bodily damage isn't displayed because he is, well  a fucking edo, the same reason why Itachi has no backlash from his MS usage. Madara has way bigger chakra than Nagato, so if he was alive he won't be bleeding out of the nose any time soon bud because his body has a bigger capacity for chakra flow, but nice try though.




kokodeshide said:


> You are using a statement that said he was taught it, not that he can use it, he shows direct knowledge that he cant. he has no feats with it other than the outer path. Madara used preta all through the war, why didnt obito?



ROFL, in order to teach someone something you must be able to understand that something yourself. He taught him the SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE. The six paths technique is stated to contain all six paths and the 7, so keep lying to me. Plus, that wasn't the only character statement I have cited either. Konan made it clear. Kakashi and Guy made themselves clear. Obito didn't use it because he doesn't have the chakra available for a prolonged struggle, keep ignoring canon bud, it was clearly explained. He is already spamming kamui and controlling 6 jins, and can't even wield two rinnegan passively, yet you are comparing him to someone who was an Edo Tensei and has significantly more chakra than him. Keep trolling bro.




kokodeshide said:


> Yeah bro, cause she was on the fuckin edge. common sense, kid.
> It gets reflected by an attack over 1000 times weaker than it? how?



ROFL SHE WAS ON THE EDGE? Lying troll.  Bro, she was near  the epicenter  where Pain jumped up. The inverse square law is a bitch ain't it? She took one of the biggest yields the atttack outputted, with minor diff. She got a bloodstain and was pushed away, big deal. Mokujin reflects, PS reflects, troll harder.



kokodeshide said:


> Not air burst shockwaves, buddy. learn what that means.



So, concession accepted???

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Mar 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The number I put out for a* small part *of the valley is lower, troll harder bro-zay. The full length of the valley cannot be accurately determined, but we know that it's on the order of thousands of kilometers, maybe more, so I gave you a ball park low end calc. As such, I have already one shotted your argument. Since a calculation for the length of the valley cannot be determined, and since a tensile strength of PS cannot be calculated, you have no grounds to claim that his power output is weaker than Nagato's. Admit you are wrong while you still have respect with me dude.


Bro, there is absolutely no point to argue anything you say if you refuse to acknowledge that 300 kilotons is smaller than 300 gigatons. This just straight proves you don't believe anything you say and wont believe anything I say. Saying, "It cant be determined so...." If it cant be determined, than by the BASIC rules of general debate, you CANNOT use it. 

You used a crazy BS calc, I'm saying I'll even accept it, lets compare the 2. Oh, 300 kilotons, oh, 300 gigatons. Which is bigger? oh wait, CST is 1,000,000 times more powerful you say! Yet you still reject it? 

You don't want to debate, you want to ramble. I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in who is right and wrong and when you can't accept that your shit is far lower, when it is, then you aren't worth taking time to respond to, cause you aren't here to debate, you are here to satisfy your personal bias. So like I said, either accept that 300 kilotons is lower than 300 gigatons or I'm not spending any more time on this.


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 17, 2019)

@kokodeshide

Dude, you're done. You are officially a fucking liar. I could care less what you want to me accept. Almost everything you have told me over the last month or so is a LIE. Seriously, the trust is broken.

Like, even the lies about Nagato and Itachi is enough as it is. Here is my final trump Card.


Kabuto clearly stated that all 22 of those kunai got into Nagato's blindspot because Nagato saw all the kunai coming through the eyes of his summons which were clearly looking at the kunai, as Nagato is literally established to have 3 times the normal vision of a normal human. Itachi absolutely fodderstomps Nagato with 22 kunai to the eye. It's canon.







You wank  sensing hard. It's been debunked bro. I have been saving this information in reserve just to see if you would come clean within a month' time.  But your time is up bro. Every sensor in this manga has been blindsided even when at times they were confirmed to have chakra sensory mode activated. But that is not all I have for you.

 V4 Susano'o is literally a HUGE amount of dense and concentrated and visible chakra that even reflects the user's emotions and each user has a unique color that reflects their their internal chakra. Even the initial aura that forms before the rib cage of susano'o is highly concentrated because if chakra is visible it will be visible to the naked eye.
Zabuza wasn't surprised by the raiton chakra, he was surprised because in the center of Kakashi's hand you could literally see his normal chakra, which is distinct from the raiton chakra.


And we know that if chakra is visible enough to be seen by the naked eye even non sensors can sense it from miles away), and even non sensor types can sense powerful chakra. Orochimaru even outright tells us that non sensor types can sense powerful chakra. Even dying and sick and BLIND Itachi could sense Orochimaru's eight headed serpent based on the sensation of it's powerful chakra. As Based  Sage Light said, Susano'o is a deity. The jutsu requires so much chakra from the user that it naturally hurts every cell in the user's body.  All that red and voluminous chakra and Nagato  who was a mere 40 feet away 100 percent sensed it, even if he didn't have full chakra sensory mode turned on due to Kabuto's incompetence. It's obvious. He was looking up at the Totsuka blade on panel. His CT was destroyed and his enemies were clearly hiding behind the smoke. Kabuto was already blindsided by Itachi so he was a 100 percent alert.

This is just a short compendium of scans, there are even more from where these came from, come at me.


*Spoiler*: _Compendium of NON SENSORS sensing powerful chakra_ 













Kakashi was no where near VOTE yet but he sensed the energy from Sasuke and naruto
s rasengan and chidori.










I established that Nagato can absolutely sense v4 Susano'o even with his basal levels of chakra sensing that every ninja has. Yet, Nagato couldn't even generate an instinctual  startle response, an unconscious reflex that is always processed by the human spine before it is processed by the brain, so it's the fastest reflex you have.

We know edo tensei can react instinctively even under direct control, as A3 reacted to a surprise rasenshuriken coming from behind. Nagato instinctually reacted with Preta to KCM naruto rasengan. And even Oro reacted to Sasuke's surprise chidori stream even though he knew it wouldn't kill him, it's just basic biological reflex lmao. Nagato couldn't even WHISPER a mental reaction in response to Itachi's susano'o my friend.

Couldn't activate preta or shinra tensei, he couldn't even jerk his arm forward to attempt to block the blade unconsciously. In real life, The  average human shoulder jerks at 100 to 121 milliseconds along with the arms at 125 to 195 milliseconds in response to a fast moving object my friend. Nagato is superhuman and has one of the best reflexes in the manga based on his feats with 6 paths of pain, so his time needed for an unconscious reflex is many magnitudes shorter than 125 milliseconds lol.  Totsuka and Susano'o in general were  Too fast for his optic nerve to process the visual stimulus needed to trigger those reflexes son.

Keep ignoring manga facts, keep ignoring biology.



Now, for your founder's downplay



kokodeshide said:


> Bro, there is absolutely no point to argue anything you say if you refuse to acknowledge that 300 kilotons is smaller than 300 gigatons. This just straight proves you don't believe anything you say and wont believe anything I say. Saying, "It cant be determined so...." If it cant be determined, than by the BASIC rules of general debate, you CANNOT use it.



Don't YOU DARE try to argue that I have the burden of proof here. To this day, YOU still make the positive claim that Nagato's firepower is greater than Hashirama's/Madara's based on your wankfest calcs.  IF you make a claim, you must PROVE your claim. If the valley's length is undefined, then you can't make a  direct comparison by comparing the respective craters they made. So you have lost. You have no evidence that Hashirama's crater volume is smaller than Nagato's. Not that the comparison made a lick of sense to begin with. You are comparing Nagato continously ripping a bunch of rocks in the sky using gravity and holding them up there to hashirama's raw explosion generated from the air pressure of his firepower. Go back to school, kid. You need some lessons in geology too apparently. Valleys are  a depression in the earth and they longer than they are wide and they are longer than they are deep, the entire reason it became a border is because it has the LENGTH to be one. The valley's length was never fully shown on panel. the best we have are snapshots from 220 -238 and 693 -697 and even then Kishimoto clearly shows it extending endlessly into the distance. My 300 kiloton calc is for a small section of the valley shown in Chapter 370 pg 24. That is no where near the full length of the valley, kid, keep trolling.

>Hashirama has more chakra than BM Naruto. Chakra and firepower are directly related. The whole basis of why Naruto can summon gamabunta in part one once he got extra chakra from Gamabunta even though his chakra control was shit.
>Hashirama  shit diff'd the edo control via power while Nagato got shit diff'd.
>Hashirama is stated to carve up the landscape better than Madara, who is already a country level character. Nagato summoned a tiny ass boulder from the asteroid belt to hit KCM Naruto. Madara summoned two actual legit gigantic meteors rofl.
>Nagato admitted inferiority to Kisame in chakra rofl
>Hashirama fought not only for 24 hours  at VOTE but used chakra taxing techniques and the scale at which he casually fights on shits on Nagato, and even after that he still seemed to have an hour left in him. Nagato used two country level attacks that caused him to bleed and shorten his lifespan and fought the the village for like what?  a few hours and change?
>Valley of the end became a border between nations.
>Hashi is a Senju and reincarnate of Ashura. He is directly compared to Sage of Six paths Everyone says his battle with Madara devastated the land itself. Kakashi said it. Obito said it. Madara said it. Kabuto implied it. Tsunade is shocked that her grandad can compete with PS.
>Nagato is shocked at the strength of Kn8 naruto rofl, and he even says he CANT BELIEVE it overpowered his chibaku Tensei. the same kn8 which is weaker than Hashi once he brings out his megazords.



I already see you spreading your lies to other threads. You ignore the fact that the fucking 1000 armed kanon on Shinsuusenju's back has arms each comparable in size to 100 percent kurama, and the width of the kanon  is way larger than the 100 meter width of the valley. If he fired them straight into the ground, the crater which would be much fucking wider than 100 meters kid. We know he didn't do that, because Kishimoto frigging DREW him curving the hands directly into the upper body of the kyuubi  and they were in close proximity to each other. If he is curving his hands into a single target, then why on earth is it so surprising that his crater isn't that wide? the crater still extends for thousands of kilometers into the mainland, and it was created by the raw air pressure of his WEAKENED attack. many of the arms were intercepted by the bijuu dama that flew into the upper atmosphere, keep ignoring that , kid. he busted through PS. Keep ignoring that kid.

Hashirama's 1000 armed canon can have a huge area of effect if he wants it to, and he is a sensor type in base and in SM his sensory skills are amped even more. He has no issue sensing his targets unless they are extremely skilled in suppressing their chakra. He creates a new valley as everyone under him gets obliterated. There is no place to shunshin or substitute to with that huge area of effect and raw attack potency. Last I checked, Nagato has mobility issues, so yeah he is cucked


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## kokodeshide (Mar 17, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @kokodeshide
> 
> Dude, you're done. You are officially a fucking liar. I could care less what you want to me accept. Almost everything you have told me over the last month or so is a LIE. Seriously, the trust is broken.
> 
> ...


Learn how to debate, sonny, The burden of proof is on you. I already gave the Nagato shit, you must supply the numbers for hashirama. NOT me. You are making the claim he can stop a 300 gigaton blunt force attack by using a 300 kiloton blunt force attack. That is a retarded claim. Meaning, you have absolutely no value as a poster. Possibly the worst poster to ever post on the forum. You literally keep on repeating that a 300 kiloton attack can beat a 300 gigaton attack then laughing like you are smart. You are depressingly desperate for a win. You want it so bad you have resorted to absurdly long rants and shit slinging in an effort to get at me. It's wildly entertaining, keep it going. Momma is here to watch you crash and burn lololol. Don't worry, I'll kiss your boo boo's once this temper tantrum is over. Big kiss!


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 19, 2019)

[QUOTE="kokodeshide, post: 59895108, member: 119307"You are making the claim he can stop a *300 gigaton blunt force attack by using a 300 kiloton blunt force attack.* That is a retarded claim. Meaning, you have absolutely no value as a poster. Possibly the worst poster to ever post on the forum. You literally keep on repeating that a 300 kiloton attack can beat a 300 gigaton attack then laughing like you are smart.[/QUOTE]


I never made that claim. So I don't have to prove it. Learn what burden of proof is, you liar. You literally ignored my posts, and you have showed your true colors. You are a lying liar and your reading comprehension has also plummeted to shit.

You made the claim that Nagato's firepower is greater than Hashi without a shred of physical evidence, moron. You calced your 300 gigatons but don't have a calc for Hashi. So where is your proof that Nagato's 300 gigatons is greater than the energy expended at the VOTE? Looks like you don't have it,   That's too bad. Good luck finding the length of the valley, good luck calculating the damage done to PS. Good luck calculating the energy expended by the hands during their collision with those 12 bijuu dama. Because, the calc is the only thing your banking on, all the manga evidence otherwise debunks you. 







On my end, I have plenty of   definitive qualitative evidence from the manga in the form of feats, character statements, and the mechanics of chakra/ ninjutsu.
I proved my claim, my evidence is in all my previous posts. Hashirama>>>>>> Nagato in chakra. Therefore his firepower is greater. Juubidara can summon so many chibaku tensei satellites  each bigger than the single one Nagato made any without strain compared to Nagato specifically because of his much greater chakra reserves, it's something directly shown and corroborated by SPSM Naruto's chakra statement.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I never made that claim. So I don't have to prove it. Learn what burden of proof is, you liar. You literally ignored my posts, and you have showed your true colors. You are a lying liar and your reading comprehension has also plummeted to shit.


You are telling me i have to prove both sides? You dont know how to debate at all. I ignored your post because if you couldnt concede that CST is the far higher calced attack then you wont concede on anything. It devalued your entire post. You literally proved to the entire forum that you are stuck to your ways and refuse to change.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You made the claim that Nagato's firepower is greater than Hashi without a shred of physical evidence, moron. You calced your 300 gigatons but don't have a calc for Hashi. So where is your proof that Nagato's 300 gigatons is greater than the energy expended at the VOTE? Looks like you don't have it, That's too bad.


Cause his firepower is. 
I don't have to calc Hashiramas attack, his attack is well below Nagatos. That is a fact. your calc even proves it. You would have to multiply your calc by 1 million to equal nagatos attack. Is that so hard to understand? You could say that only 1 fist cause the VotE and then it would still be 1000 times weaker with the total output of all 1000 fists.    


ThirdRidoku said:


> Good luck finding the length of the valley, good luck calculating the damage done to PS. Good luck calculating the energy expended by the hands during their collision with those 12 bijuu dama. Because, the calc is the only thing your banking on, all the manga evidence otherwise debunks you.


Too bad i don't have to, you do, thats your side of the debate you fuckin fool.

Manga evidence? What evidence? the fact that the valley is a puddle compared to CST and CT? The fact that CST  and CT are also visually FAR more impressive? 


ThirdRidoku said:


> On my end, I have plenty of definitive qualitative evidence from the manga in the form of feats, character statements, and the mechanics of chakra/ ninjutsu.


No you haven't, nice try though. You are bad at this.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I proved my claim, my evidence is in all my previous posts. Hashirama>>>>>> Nagato in chakra. Therefore his firepower is greater.


hahahaha, no. That isnt how it works at alllll.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Juubidara can summon so many chibaku tensei satellites each bigger than the single one Nagato made any without strain compared to Nagato specifically because of his much greater chakra reserves, it's something directly shown and corroborated by SPSM Naruto's chakra statement.


Yeah, no shit, they use the same jutsu you fuckin moron.


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> You are telling me i have to prove both sides? You dont know how to debate at all. I ignored your post because if you couldnt concede that CST is the far higher calced attack then you wont concede on anything. It devalued your entire post. You literally proved to the entire forum that you are stuck to your ways and refuse to change.



Trash reading comprehension is trash. I didn't say anything about you having to prove both sides, kid. You have your calc for CST, great. So you calc'd it at 300 gigatons. What then? Where is your evidence that Hashi is weaker. I see you claiming it in other threads, yet you have no proof of your claim. Make a claim, prove it.






kokodeshide said:


> Cause his firepower is.
> I don't have to calc Hashiramas attack, his attack is well below Nagatos. That is a fact. your calc even proves it. You would have to multiply your calc by 1 million to equal nagatos attack. Is that so hard to understand? You could say that only 1 fist cause the VotE and then it would still be 1000 times weaker with the total output of all 1000 fists.




Lying liar. His attack isn't weaker unless you can prove it, just proving to the forum what a liar you are. Where is your proof? I did three calcs, moron. Two of them for small sections of the valley. The third one was for the valley assuming it only stretches the border between Land of Fire and Sound. Even then it's still a low end for a multitude of reasons.



kokodeshide said:


> Manga evidence? What evidence? the fact that the valley is a puddle compared to CST and CT? The fact that CST and CT are also visually FAR more impressive?



No evidence of this claim. Prove that the full length of the valley is a puddle rofl.




kokodeshide said:


> hahahaha, no. That isnt how it works at alllll.



Yes it is how it works.


I already proved my claims. If a calculation cannot be accurately determined, all that is left is qualitative manga facts. So yeah, keep up the lies bro.


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