# EMS Madara vs BSM Naruto



## Epicnessbeyond (Nov 28, 2015)

Location: Hashirama vs Madara
Distance: 500m
Knowledge: Manga
Scenario 2: Madara has the Kyuubi


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

Well Scenario 2 is a lock for Madara, PS 100% Kurama is serious overkill against 50% BSM Naruto. 

First Scenario is up to speculation, my personal opinion PS's offensive power is still too broken for Naruto to deal with. Granted, he's tanked some powerful stuff even in BM, it's going to be difficult to convince me that he's capable of tanking machine gun double-arm grappled dual slashes one after the other, especially when he's vulnerable at the peak of the head of the avatar, which Madara will be aiming for. 

Bijuudama really isn't an option to bust his Susano, they're deflected back with the shock wave of PS Slashes, and it's really difficult for someone to deal with invisible shock waves that can come at any moment, even with Naruto's great sensing abilities.

Madara's PS is also significantly larger than Naruto's BSM Avatar... so there's that physical domination if it gets into a close quarter mecha scuffle.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 28, 2015)

Madara's Perfect Susano'o still shits regardless.

 With power-scaling, Naruto and Sasuke w/o Rikudou Power-Ups results in EMS Sasuke being on par with BSM Naruto (IMO). Madara's Perfect Susano'o not only has 4 arms in comparison to Sasuke's who has 2, but is also significantly larger and has more firepower. RSM Naruto's Tails and Rikudou Sasuke's Sword Slashes stalemated, so a much stronger Susano'o should likely be able to slice through BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails to be honest and BSM Naruto can't compete with Perfect Susano'o's attack frequency that enabled Madara to pierce through the majority of SM Hashirama's Buddha's arms. 

 Madara still shits regardless of whether or not he has Kurama.


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## Amol (Nov 28, 2015)

Naruto obliterates Madara with his overrated/overwanked PS. 
He surpassed him with BSM.


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## Rai (Nov 29, 2015)

PS destroy 50% BSM Naruto.

PS+Kyuubi is stomp.

Naruto didn't reach/surpassed PS level until he gained SPSM.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 29, 2015)

obitos drop slam destroyed narutos avatar. the force of madaras PS blade hitting 50% kurama coupled with the mountain range leveling shockwaves obliterate the avatar and kills naruto.


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## Epicnessbeyond (Nov 29, 2015)

From my POV I see Naruto losing even S1 because of portrayal. During the fight with Obito it was portrayed clearly that Naruto and Sasuke have grown a lot and that they will one day surpass Hashirama and Madara. Naruto and Sasuke had never surpassed Madara and Hashirama till Rikudo Mode. It was also portrayed that CS V3 Susanoo and Sasuke PS=BSM Naruto. Sasuke was still portrayed weaker than Madara. So all in all because of portrayal Naruto loses.

Damn I used portrayed a lot.


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## Rai (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Madara's Perfect Susano'o still shits regardless.
> 
> With power-scaling, Naruto and Sasuke w/o Rikudou Power-Ups results in EMS Sasuke being on par with BSM Naruto (IMO). Madara's Perfect Susano'o not only has 4 arms in comparison to Sasuke's who has 2, but is also significantly larger and has more firepower. RSM Naruto's Tails and Rikudou Sasuke's Sword Slashes stalemated, so a much stronger Susano'o should likely be able to slice through BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails to be honest and BSM Naruto can't compete with Perfect Susano'o's attack frequency that enabled Madara to pierce through the majority of SM Hashirama's Buddha's arms.
> 
> Madara still shits regardless of whether or not he has Kurama.



50% BM Naruto tails was able to tank Juubi v1 laser.

50% BSM Naruto is stronger.

Madara wins but he doesn't not one-shot with PS.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 29, 2015)

EMS Madara w/ PS mid-diffs.
EMS Madara w/ PS + 100% Kyuubi low-diffs.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

ℜai said:


> 50% BM Naruto tails was able to tank Juubi v1 laser.
> 
> 50% BSM Naruto is stronger.
> 
> Madara wins but he doesn't not one-shot with PS.



 Never said he did.

 There's also a massive difference between a penetrative force and a blunt force. Penetrative forces are more focused and any Bijuudama BSM Naruto uses is repelled back at BSM Naruto.

 Since EMS Sasuke's PS can stalemate BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails (IMO), then Madara's PS obviously shits.


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## Kyu (Nov 29, 2015)

>500m

>PS' best durability feat is tanking a standard BD

>Senjutsu versions of this &  are fair game

Nukes ahoy. 




> Scenario 2: Madara has the Kyuubi



Madara wins. 100% Kurama counters with his own super nuke.


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## Rai (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Never said he did.
> 
> There's also a massive difference between a penetrative force and a blunt force. Penetrative forces are more focused and any Bijuudama BSM Naruto uses is repelled back at BSM Naruto.
> 
> Since EMS Sasuke's PS can stalemate BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails (IMO), then Madara's PS obviously shits.



There is no difference between EMS and Rinnegan PS in strenght.

Otherwise Rinnegan Madara PS would have shitted SM Hashirama's Wood Human.

That was partial PS - it lacked PS blade, wings and 2 extra hands.


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## Kyu (Nov 29, 2015)

> Madara's PS displayed very high attack frequency, so BSM Naruto gets bitch-slapped before that even happens



Madara's PS ain't blitzing from 1600 feet.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Madara's PS ain't blitzing from 1600 feet.



 That's literally nothing for somebody who's Shockwaves extend over multiple mountains.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

ℜai said:


> There is no difference between EMS and Rinnegan PS in strenght.
> 
> Otherwise Rinnegan Madara PS would have shitted SM Hashirama's Wood Human.
> 
> That was partial PS - it lacked PS blade, wings and 2 extra hands.



 Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.


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## Kyu (Nov 29, 2015)

> That's literally nothing for somebody who's Shockwaves extend over multiple mountains.



I'll clarify:  Madara isn't blitzing someone he isn't substantially faster than from 1600 feet.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> I'll clarify:  Madara isn't blitzing someone he isn't substantially faster than from 1600 feet.



 I understand that and that really doesn't matter when Madara has ultimately displayed much higher attack frequency and has the feats to suggest he can attack from a large distance.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

Naruto wins. 

It's amazing how Madara's PS is overrated as fuck when he himself only stated it's "rival" the Bijuu not "it's far stronger than the Bijuu". Oh well, the usual wank..

In the meantime, there is nothing Madara's PS can do in this battle, it's useless. We know that Kurama's tails are as strong as PS's sword, and they will not even get scratched.

Madara's PS only tanked a tiny TBB from Kurama (without a host), how the hell is that comparable to Naruto tanking the Juubi's TBB? Well, it is not. 

PS's sword is only able of destroying the mountain's tops (and just where the strike is) how on earth is that better than destroying  the entire damn thing? It is not.  

Madara's PS defeated the 5 Kages? Well, Naruto's BM defeated the 5 Bijuus. Are we going to act like every one of the Gokage can deal with a Bijuu by himself? lol


Other than those, what feats does Madara's PS have exactly? 


Not only is BM stronger than PS, but Naruto himself has more chakra than Madara since his chakra (in BM alone) is almost equal to Hashirama

BSM Naruto has even more chakra than Hashirama. 

Naruto also faster than Madara, and has the ability to sense and track JJ Obito down, and you people say EMS Madara? 

and before someone bring a dumb argument "But madara's PS is sooo big "
Size is irrelevant, it's about time you know that size is not everything. Asura's Avatar was barely the size of Indra's PS's head, does that mean that Indra
was fodderstompping Asura with a single strike as well?  



And we are talking about BM only here. BSM Naruto shits on Madara. 


-----
Scenario 2. 

It depends on how long Madara can control Kurama. Minato stated that madara can't keep Kurama for long, and BM Naruto is fully capable to staying at LEAST 8 minutes. Unless you think Madara fighting with Kurama is going to be superior to Madara and Obito fighting using the Juubi then you need to check your brain. 

Anyway, depending on that time, the battle can go in whatever direction, perhaps...


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## LightningForce (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto wins.
> 
> It's amazing how Madara's PS is overrated as fuck when he himself only stated it's "rival" the Bijuu not "it's far stronger than the Bijuu". Oh well, the usual wank..
> 
> ...



It's amazing the amount of holes in your logic here and the wank you have for Naruto. Absolutely amazing.


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## Ghost (Nov 29, 2015)

Naruto one shots with super charged SM Bijuudama.


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## Raiken (Nov 29, 2015)

EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > 50%-BM+SM Naruto > EMS Madara = BM Naruto

Scenario 1: Naruto wins
Scenario 2: Madara wins


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## Rai (Nov 29, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > 50%-BM+SM Naruto > EMS Madara = BM Naruto
> 
> Scenario 1: Naruto wins
> Scenario 2: Madara wins



50% BM Naruto had trouble against Base Wood Dragon

EMS Madara's PS can fight on par with SM Hashirama's Wood Human & Wood Dragon.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> It's amazing the amount of holes in your logic here and the wank you have for Naruto. Absolutely amazing.



And your inability to show those holes and to counter them is even more amazing. 



ℜai said:


> SPSM Naruto avatar tail is equal to Rinnegan Sasuke PS's sword.
> 
> SPSM Naruto avatar ≠ 50% BSM/BM Naruto avatar.
> 
> ...




And EMS Madara's PS is equal to Rinnegan Sasuke's PS?
Or are u suggesting that his PS is as strong as the Juubi or stronger? (since BM Naruto tanked that)



> 50% BM Naruto is weaker than Full Kurama as we have seen vs Wood Dragon



No it's not. Naruto destroyed it with his speed alone. It's just Madara was already aware of the Wooden Dragon and its weakness and its ability as well
because he had fought Hashirama as many times as he has hair in his head. Naruto however does not.

Are you also going to tell me SM Naruto's big FRS is stronger than BSM Naruto because it destroyed the wooden dragons?

Just as, also, KCM/SM Minato lost his arms to the Gedu-Dama from Obito/Madara, however base Minato with no arms dealt with 5 of them with no problem
is armless base Minato is stronger than KCM/SM Minato? 

It's just he experienced it, and knew how to deal with it better after that...

by your logic half dead obito is stronger than JJ SM 3 Rinnegan Madara
because he dealt with Zetsu, meanwhile, Madara got fodderstompped.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

ℜai said:


> 50% BM Naruto had trouble against Base Wood Dragon
> 
> EMS Madara's PS can fight on par with SM Hashirama's Wood Human & Wood Dragon.



Madara had trouble dealing with Zetsu

it destroyed the wooden dragons

Meanwhile, the Mizukage cut him in half


Chōjūrō conformed the strongest. 


Sasuke's PS had trouble with effecting Kaguya
it destroyed the wooden dragons

base Sakura damaged her horn
it destroyed the wooden dragons

Base Sakura conformed stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke's PS. 


Naruto & Sasuke had trouble with Shin
it destroyed the wooden dragons
it destroyed the wooden dragons

Sakura conformed stronger than them
it destroyed the wooden dragons


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## Amol (Nov 29, 2015)

ℜai said:


> 50% BM Naruto had trouble against Base Wood Dragon
> 
> EMS Madara's PS can fight on par with SM Hashirama's Wood Human & Wood Dragon.


That is really faulty comparison.
Wood has anti-bijuu properties. Naruto has a Bijuu, Madara doesn't.
ABC logic doesn't work here.
And Naruto did destroy that wood dragon there.
Madara had fought with Hashirama for God knows how many times. Pretty sure they know what to use against what . Knows strategies to attack and counter-attack each others. Even weaker people can come with strategies to beat stronger people by knowing things.
Naruto was a novice.
BSM tanked attacks from Juubi but somehow he can't tank a PS Sword whose best feat is cuting mountains?
That automatically puts PS's lethality above BSM's capabilities ?
How?
BM Naruto was soloing 5 Bijuu together. Sennin Mode is a very huge upgrade(SM Naruto was beating the shit out of 50% Kurama). I almost put BSM Naruto par on All Bijuus.
A single man(Madara) is not going to be that strong without some god level upgrade.
From story perspective it also doesn't make sense for BSM Naruto to be weaker than likes of EMS Madara when he was fighting with likes of Juubito.
Naruto surpassed past generation with BSM(God level upgrades were for fighting God level opponents not relics of past). BSM Naruto who is a Top tier is more than good enough for Top tier EMS Madara.
Surpassing older generation is what a MC does. That is shonen for you.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

Amol said:


> Surpassing older generation is what a MC does. That is shonen for you.



Indeed, and the manga made it clear as well


BSM Naruto was already stronger than both Madara and Hashirama.


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## LightningForce (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And your inability to show those holes and to counter them is even more amazing.



I don't need to counter them. The holes are already glaringly obvious and fallacious, reading without context into account. Pure wank at best.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

> I don't need to counter them



Then stop wasting our time with your nonsense. In case you don't know, it's not allowed to post if it has nothing to do with the topic. Thank you.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 29, 2015)

ℜai said:


> SPSM Naruto avatar tail is equal to Rinnegan Sasuke PS's sword.
> 
> SPSM Naruto avatar ≠ 50% BSM/BM Naruto avatar.
> 
> ...



And Rinnegan Sasuke's PS is far stronger than Madara's .
And Mokuton is the weakness of the Bijuu , just like the Suiton annihilate Katon , if  wood human+dragon just barely rivals 100% Kurama then 100%Kurama is by far stronger .


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 29, 2015)

If you know how to properly analyze the Manga, you'll come to the conclusion that Madara beats him in both scenarios, with scenario 2 being a stomp.

S1:

-What PS protected Madara from at Valley of the End is FAR stronger than any nuke BSM Naruto can even dream of putting out, so Naruto never comes close to destroying PS before Madara destroys him.

-To all the people wanking Naruto for tanking the Juubi's laser, all that means is that Madara can't deal that much damage with a single strike. Madara has multiple blades and multiple attempts. Not to mention Madara can cleave a Mountain Range in half using his blades so the damage easily piles up. Then there's the fact that Madara's blade is a focused attack while Juubi's laser isn't. A few PS slashes cut through his Avatar and kill him. 

-Downscaling from the VoTe 2, you come to the conclusion that Naruto's Avatar loses half it's face and a limb from an attack 2x the power of BD. Meaning something in that range, but focused, would easily rip through Naruto's Avatar. Proof? Naruto's Avatar survived Indra's Arrow+TBBFRS exploding at the same time (almost 2x damage) yet Indra's Arrow would've ripped right through his Avatar and blown him away if he hadn't blocked. That's an attack with a little bit over half the power of what Naruto tanked, but he can't tank it since it's focused. PS blade is in the same league as a Bijuu Dama based on it wrecking a Mountain Range and based on Madara's statement about it matching the Bijuu in destructive power. Do the math.

S2: Full Kurama>Half Kurama. PS>Half Kurama. Kurama and PS>>Half Kurama. Senjutsu does not close the gap between any of these. 12 BD blade barrages obliterate Naruto.




Kyu said:


> >500m
> 
> >PS' best durability feat is tanking a standard BD
> 
> ...



Wow, didn't know that a Bijuu Dama that Naruto needed help to perform became an individual feat for him.  I also like the bad logic you are using.

-PS's best feat is tanking BD.
-Thus larger BD wrecks it.

If you sat down and analyzed the feats like any logical poster would do, you'd come to the conclusion that Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama (which is exactly what's pictured in that first panel give or take, inb4 some nonsense about it dwarfing Susanoo) doesn't do anything serious to PS.




Amol said:


> That is really faulty comparison.
> Wood has anti-bijuu properties. Naruto has a Bijuu, Madara doesn't.
> ABC logic doesn't work here.
> And Naruto did destroy that wood dragon there.
> ...



This whole post is full of nothing but ridiculous ass logic, and the usual Naruto wank seen on this site.

-Naruto being as strong as all the Bijuus is nonsense when Naruto can be matched by 5 of them. Let alone a combo BD being used by the other 8 combined.

-Madara doesn't need to be as strong as 8 Bijuu to take out BSM Naruto because BSM Naruto is not as strong as 8 Bijuu. Though I find it funny how blatant the double standards are here. You state "a single man can't be that strong with a god level upgrade", yet you have the nerve to claim that Naruto w/ Kurama's power is at that level. What? Is Sage Mode now a "god level upgrade"?

-Oh yeah, and how could I forget that you actually think that using SM Naruto vs Kurama to justify BSM Naruto being far above EMS Madara makes sense when SM Naruto would've died to Kurama the first second of the match had Killer B not saved his ass. Then we have Kushina saving him again with her chains. Please never ever claim again in your life that SM Naruto is on a Bijuu's level, let alone the strongest Bijuu. Even KCM Naruto was about to be put to rest had he not had the hax of his Torii Seal.

-You say "BSM Naruto can beat Madara because BSM Naruto is a top tier like EMS Madara". More terrible logic. Madara and Hashirama are both top tiers, yet Hashirama would spank Madara w/o Kurama.

-You use Naruto losing 6 tails to the Juubi's laser as evidence that he tanks PS slashes?  

-Then you claim that Naruto surpassed the previous generation when his feats pre Hagoromo buff and his portrayal say otherwise. If you want to talk portrayal, Sasuke was stated to be weaker than Madara (in Manga and DB) and Sasuke is portrayed to be Naruto's equal, or at the least on his level. If Sasuke hasn't reached Madara's level, then Naruto is nowhere near Hashirama's level nor is he as strong as Madara. Portrayal wise.


The mere fact that you people are deluded enough to think that Naruto can one shot one of the main villains best techs is enough reason for me not to expect anything logical to come from whatever reply you may or may not give.


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The mere fact that you people are deluded enough to think that Naruto can one shot one of the main villains best techs...



When BSM Naruto was unveiled, Jesusbito was the main villain, and he's quite abit above Madara's paygrade.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> When BSM Naruto was unveiled, Jesusbito was the main villain, and he's quite abit above Madara's paygrade.



And the gap between BSM Naruto and BM Naruto is nowhere near as large for anyone to believe that he'll go from being unable to one shot Madara, to being able to one shot Madara. Lol Juubito's strength doesn't even matter here.


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> And the gap between BSM Naruto and BM Naruto is nowhere near as large for anyone to believe that he'll go from being unable to one shot Madara, to being able to one shot Madara.



...why?

I mean, I'll use your logic. Hashirama could not breach Madara's Susanoo in base. Hashirama used Sage Mode, and he obliterated Madara's Susanoo. 

Therefore, if Naruto is unable to breach Madara's Susanoo in BM, it is not "deluded" to believe that he'd be capable when mixing in senjutsu.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...why?
> 
> I mean, I'll use your logic. Hashirama could not breach Madara's Susanoo in base. Hashirama used Sage Mode, and he obliterated Madara's Susanoo.
> 
> Therefore, if Naruto is unable to breach Madara's Susanoo in BM, it is not "deluded" to believe that he'd be capable when mixing in senjutsu.



Terrible logic because Hashirama used a completely separate jutsu in Sage Mode that allowed him to do so while Naruto isn't using a completely separate Ninjutsu to do so. He's using the same Ninjutsu, but buffed with Sage Mode. An accurate example would be claiming that even though Base Mokujin can't breach Susanoo, SM Mokujin can one shot it due to a Senjutsu boost.

And Naruto can breach Madara's Susanoo, but it'd take him a *while *and he doesn't have a while. The problem here is that Naruto cannot and will not ever be able to one shot Madara unless he's using Rikudo's powers.


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## Bonly (Nov 29, 2015)

Naruto still has a time limit in when it comes to using BM and once that time limit comes around no more Kurama avatar for Naruto and he needs to that in order to fight against Madara's PS. So either Naruto takes out Madara in around 11 minutes or Madara ends up slashing Naruto to death. Could go either way though I'd side with Madara


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

@KoM

You were speaking from the portrayal perspective, though. "The gap between BM & BSM isn't big enough to matter." That is wrong. As for how he'd fare against Susanoo, Naruto's jutsu scale with chakra, unlike Hashirama's. When he needed a larger Rasenshuriken, he made a gargantuan one by just adding more power. 

Imagine if he had done that in Bijū Sage Mode as opposed to just Sage Mode. Imagine if he had done it with Bijūdama instead of the weaker Rasenshuriken. Naruto should be capable of building a rather enormous Bijūdama. 50% Kurama was capable of making gigantic bombs after being stripped of most of his power, so BSM Naruto's theoretical firepower is insane.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Kurama stated that BSM was essentially combining Naruto's Hermit Power with Kurama's own Chakra which means that Natural Energy is molded w/ Naruto's own Base Chakras rather than Kurama's. However, Naruto's base chakras are far inferior in Quality and Quantity, so the boost received from BM - - > BSM is fairly minimal.

 Actually, why the hell didn't Naruto use BSM against SM Madara when Naruto stated that drawing in Natural Energy was much faster? 

 I would actually agree here when KoM said the gap between BM and BSM isn't that large because it honestly isn't.

 ^ Nukes of that caliber required BM Naruto multiple panels to charge and by Obito's affirmation, was confirmed to be really slow. Hell, he need the Hachibi to shield him because if he hadn't, he would've easily been hit and PS has the necessary fire-power to bitch-slap BM/ BSM Naruto.


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kurama stated that BSM was essentially combining Naruto's Hermit Power with Kurama's own Chakra which means that Natural Energy is molded w/ Naruto's own Base Chakras rather than Kurama's.



When Naruto is in Kurama Mode or Bijū Mode, his chakra is synched with Kurama's iirc. Natural energy would then be balanced with that fused chakra.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> When Naruto is in Kurama Mode or Bijū Mode, his chakra is synched with Kurama's iirc. Natural energy would then be balanced with that fused chakra.



gigantic bombs

 Kurama refers to his own chakra flowing out while Naruto used Sage Mode which means Kurama's Chakra combined with Naruto's own Senjutsu.

gigantic bombs

 Now, Kurama states that he can replicate that by allowing Naruto's Hermit Power along with Kurama's Chakra. Naruto's Hermit Power was his own Chakra augmented by Natural Energy, it's not his and Kurama's Chakra augmented by Natural Energy b/c it's no longer his own Sage Mode. Why else do you think Rikudou Senjutsu is considered a Six Paths Power rather than Naruto's own Enhanced Hermit Power?


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

What's the difference, though? Sage Naruto receiving the BM boost is the same as BM Naruto receiving the Sage boost.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @KoM
> 
> You were speaking from the portrayal perspective, though. "The gap between BM & BSM isn't big enough to matter." That is wrong. As for how he'd fare against Susanoo, Naruto's jutsu scale with chakra, unlike Hashirama's. When he needed a larger Rasenshuriken, he made a gargantuan one by just adding more power.
> 
> Imagine if he had done that in Bijū Sage Mode as opposed to just Sage Mode. Imagine if he had done it with Bijūdama instead of the weaker Rasenshuriken. Naruto should be capable of building a rather enormous Bijūdama. 50% Kurama was capable of making gigantic bombs after being stripped of most of his power, so BSM Naruto's theoretical firepower is insane.



I know, from the portrayal perspective Naruto can't one shot Susanoo. Never said that he has no way to actually do anything to it by portrayal. And no, the gap between BM and BSM isn't large enough to matter in the context of Susanoo being one shot. Literally nothing supports that.

50% Kurama's maximum Bijuu Dama and Naruto's Flash BD aren't that different in size first of all, but I see that your main point is that he was able to do that after losing a lot of his power. But even then that logic doesn't work. Naruto having more power to add doesn't mean that he can add as much power he wants to the attack.

Kurama can make a BD larger than Flash BD after losing a lot of his chakra, yet BM Naruto *and *Killer B's combo Bijuu Dama isn't even 2-3x bigger than what Kurama can do on his own, despite what we are describing as Kurama on his own being Kurama w/ a shit ton of his power drained from him.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's the difference, though? Sage Naruto receiving the BM boost is the same as BM Naruto receiving the Sage boost.



 Here's the difference. Let's assume Senjutsu provides a 2x boost in one's Chakra.

 What I'm suggesting:



			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> Naruto: 1
> Kurama: 10
> BM Naruto: 11
> 
> ...



 Now, what you're suggesting:



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Naruto: 1
> Kurama: 10
> BM Naruto: 11
> 
> ...



 And I can assume the boosts would be practically the same since Natural Energy is proportionate to how much Chakra someone has. 

 That's a substantial difference, even moreso once we factor in the fact that Kurama's Chakra in Quantity and Quality is far greater than what Naruto can release which creates a substantial boost which doesn't even seem implied in the manga. If it was, Sasuke would've hinted towards it and Naruto wouldn't have been retarded enough to only use Bijuu Mode against SM Madara if Bijuu Sage Mode suddenly increased Naruto's capabilities substantially.

 Edit: And I just used quotes to organize my thoughts, so this isn't anything we've stated before, just to clarify.


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

Why isn't BM a multiplier too, like Sage Mode? For argument's sake, assume Sage Mode is x5 and BM is x10.

If Naruto was a 5, Sage Naruto would be 25, while BM Naruto would be 50. If Sage Naruto got the x10 or BM Naruto got the 5x, it'd still be the same power level: 250. 

So you'd end up with:
Naruto: 5
Sage Naruto: 25
BM Naruto: 50
BSM Naruto: 250


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## Kyu (Nov 29, 2015)

> Wow, didn't know that a Bijuu Dama that Naruto needed help to perform became an individual feat for him



Yes, clearly Naruto needs help from a vastly inferior entity to basically replicate an emasculated Kurama's feat. 

Please.



> I also like the bad logic you are using



This oughta be good.



> -PS's best feat is tanking BD.
> -Thus larger BD wrecks it.



Safe to assume a considerably larger BD filled with senjutsu will blow it to shit, yeah.



> If you sat down and analyzed the feats like any logical poster would do, you'd come to the conclusion that Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama (which is exactly what's pictured in that first panel give or take, inb4 some nonsense about it dwarfing Susanoo) doesn't do anything serious to PS.



Based on what? PS tanking a smaller bd?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why isn't BM a multiplier too, like Sage Mode? For argument's sake, assume Sage Mode is x5 and BM is x10.



 Because Kurama's Chakra doesn't mold with Naruto's Chakra the way Natural Energy does. Naruto's own Chakra isn't even augmented, it's just that both Kurama and Naruto's Chakra are drawn out simultaneously.



> If Naruto was a 5, Sage Naruto would be 25, while BM Naruto would be 50. If Sage Naruto got the x10 or BM Naruto got the 5x, it'd still be the same power level: 250.
> 
> So you'd end up with:
> Naruto: 5
> ...



 Well, Natural Energy actually augments Naruto's own Base Chakras whereas Kurama's Chakra doesn't amplify Naruto's own Chakras, it's simply used along with Naruto's own Base Chakras.

 I'll admit, that is an interesting interpretation. I just don't see the implication that the gap between BM/BSM Naruto was massive.


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## Rocky (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because Kurama's Chakra doesn't mold with Naruto's Chakra the way Natural Energy does.



I thought Nine-Tails Mode (KCM) was where Naruto used the fox's chakra while his was shelved, and Kurama Mode (BM) was where they fused their chakras?


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

Narudo's Rasengan/tiny TBB wrecked the Gedu-Dama why wouldn't it destroy the Susanoo's chakra exactly? 

(other than lol"madara")


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I thought Nine-Tails Mode (KCM) was where Naruto used the fox's chakra while his was shelved, and Kurama Mode (BM) was where they fused their chakras?



gigantic bombs

 I think this diagram explains it rather well.

 It displays each of the Shinobi's/ Naruto's Chakra and Kurama's Chakra as separate components because if their chakras fused, it would literally form an entirely different chakra and more potent chakra as shown when Indra and Ashura's Chakra fused to enable Madara to use the Rinnegan or when Sasuke received a more potent chakra from awakening the EMS due to Itachi and Sasuke's Chakra mixing because we know dojutsu is a reflection of the Quality of one's chakra.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Narudo's Rasengan/tiny TBB wrecked the Gedu-Dama why wouldn't it destroy the Susanoo's chakra exactly?
> 
> (other than lol"madara")



 Madara has the Gumbai.

 Any Ninjutsu is absorbed and repelled back at Naruto.


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## Kai (Nov 29, 2015)

Yeah, Complete Susanoo is not enough to deal with BM and SM combined. Naruto's firepower should comfortably exceed Madara's Susanoo.

Madara comfortably wins Scenario 2 with Kurama. Naruto's BSM power doesn't come close to Kurama+Complete Susanoo fusion.

And to those saying Sasuke's Complete Susanoo was portrayed to rival Naruto's BSM in power, it was Susanoo with senjutsu (CS)  that could rival BM's senjutsu boost. When it comes down to it, BSM should still emerge on top compared to CSS.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Madara has the Gumbai.
> 
> Any Ninjutsu is absorbed and repelled back at Naruto.



So, should I take that as you do know deep down, that PS is not holding a candle to Narudo? 



Kai said:


> Yeah, Complete Susanoo is not enough to deal with BM and SM combined. Naruto's firepower should comfortably exceed Madara's Susanoo.
> 
> Madara comfortably wins Scenario 2 with Kurama. Naruto's BSM power doesn't come close to Kurama+Complete Susanoo fusion.
> 
> And to those saying Sasuke's Complete Susanoo was portrayed to rival Naruto's BSM in power, it was Susanoo with senjutsu (CS)  that could rival BM's senjutsu boost. When it comes down to it, BSM should still emerge on top compared to CSS.



Sasuke's was portrayed to rival Narudo. It's the same nonsense people were saying, and with every-power up they give Sasuke free portrayed to be "Narudo's equal. Even tho Kishi slapped them over and over, and over, and over again.

Like when they tried desperately to make EMS Sasuke equal to KCM Naruto, and then to BM Naruto and then to BSM Naruto even tho Kishi showed Sasuke being jealous of how far ahead Naruto was. 

They tried to do the same thing again with they got Hago's power, and Naruto completely shat on Sasuke in term of performance against Kaguya again. 

and yet they still did not learn and kept trying desperately, and kishi made Sasuke need all full 8 Bijuus and half to battle an exhausted/holding back Narudo. 



> Madara comfortably wins Scenario 2 with Kurama. Naruto's BSM power doesn't come close to Kurama+Complete Susanoo fusion.



BSM Naruto is portrayed  to be stronger than Hashirama. So, he should as well be stronger than Madara with Kurama.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So, should I take that as you do know deep down, that PS is not holding a candle to Narudo?



 Nope, because BSM Naruto is a candle compared to PS.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

In your dreams.  
Narudo streamroll that fodder as the fodder he is.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> In your dreams.
> Narudo streamroll that fodder as the fodder he is.



 Is that why Madara steamrolled Fodderuto and the Bijuu simultaneously?


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

Was not EMS Madara  (regardless of it being asspull lol)

It was RT, Rinnegan Madara with Hashirama's cells and SM. 
Nor was he using PS either.


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## Dr. White (Nov 29, 2015)

Going with a slight nod to Madara. His PS was protecting Kyuubi through thick and thin including 100% Cont Bjuudama spam/Shinsenju fist colliding. I also don't believe Naruto/Sasuke surpassed Hashi/Madara until their Sage Power ups.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Was not EMS Madara  (regardless of it being asspull lol)
> 
> It was RT, Rinnegan Madara with Hashirama's cells and SM.
> Nor was he using PS either.



 So the lack of PS counteracts him only having 1 Eye and the Rinnegan.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Yes, clearly Naruto needs help from a vastly inferior entity to basically replicate an emasculated Kurama's feat.



Except what Naruto and B did surpasses what Kurama did while emasculated. Amusing that you are actually going to try and claim that B and Naruto's max power=Naruto's max power.  



> Safe to assume a considerably larger BD filled with senjutsu will blow it to shit, yeah.



Based on what exactly?  Shit logic seems to be a staple in your posts. Allow me to use your shitty logic.

-Sasuke's Rikudo chakra enhanced PS can tank a standard Bijuu Dama from Killer B with literally zero damage, so it's safe to assume that BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama blows Sasuke's PS to shit, yeah.





> Based on what? PS tanking a smaller bd?



Nah. Probably based on a smaller version of Madara's PS canonically protecting him from an attack leagues upon leagues superior to anything Naruto can dish out on his own. But hey, I only decided to read the Manga and not wank to Naruto in the process.


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## LightningForce (Nov 29, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Going with a slight nod to Madara. His PS was protecting Kyuubi through thick and thin including 100% Cont Bjuudama spam/Shinsenju fist colliding. I also don't believe Naruto/Sasuke surpassed Hashi/Madara until their Sage Power ups.



Naruto/Sasuke definitely did not surpass their predecessors until they received their Six Paths power-ups.

There's a reason why Kishi stalled Madara and Hashirama from going against JJ Obito.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So the lack of PS counteracts him only having 1 Eye and the Rinnegan.



Limbo is far stronger than the PS. They can't be seen/sensed/hurt except with Hago's power/Juubi's power. 



> There's a reason why Kishi stalled Madara and Hashirama from going against JJ Obito.





Hashirama admitted his inferiority to retard-form Obito. Obito even crushed him in the cross-fire of the battle. lol
himself

He did not get involved because he would have been useless anyway. lol
Just like how he made Hiruzen takes forever to regenerate and then kept him aside. His ability is simply not fitting. 
The same with Hashirama. 

There is a reason to why Kishi had Obito destroying his jutsu
himself
(Even with SM powering his jutsu up, it did jack shit, unlike Naruto's Rassengan)

Even madara was disappointed of Hashirama's power level with SM
unlike Naruto's Rassengan


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Limbo is far stronger than the PS. They can't be seen/sensed/hurt except with Hago's power/Juubi's power.



 Shockwaves can't be seen either.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2015)

They can be seen with their effect/dust and shit. Not as if that matters. Madara's PS is not doing jack-shit to BM as we have seen in the manga. You must be delusional to think otherwise.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 29, 2015)

Naruto takes this. His regular ol' Bijū Mode avatar could take the Jūbi's laser with only six-tails worth of damage; blocking even Perfect Susanō's slash won't be much trouble. 

Now with _Sage Mode_ in the mix? Sage Mode is a *massive* multiplier; turned Base Naruto into a high-tier amongst Kages. Imagine what it'll do for Bijū Mode. Think of the physical strength difference from Base to Sage Naruto; the difference was tens if not hundreds of times. For Bijū Mode, the idea of Naruto matching Perfect Susanō in physical strength becomes, actually, possible.

But factor in Bijūdama, and there's little chance Madara wins this.


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## Kyu (Nov 29, 2015)

> Except what Naruto and B did surpasses what Kurama did while emasculated. Amusing that you are actually going to try and claim that B and Naruto's max power=Naruto's max power.



Biju Sage Naruto doesn't need Bee to form a bijudama of that magnitude.

A _weakened_ Kurama on its own created a bijudama roughly 5 times its size which isn't _too_ far off(both fall in the super BD category) from the nuke he and Bee prepared to shoot off. Logic dictates he'd have very little issue forming an even larger one at full power and he'd produce one exceeding that when incorporating senjutsu.

I'd understand where you were coming from if the sheer volume of chakra Naruto generates didn't outright _dwarf_ Bee's entire reservoir.

The feat only becomes less impressive when someone of equal or higher standing(chakra-wise) aids in forming the BD, then the majority contributed is up for debate.



> -Sasuke's Rikudo chakra enhanced PS can tank a standard Bijuu Dama from Killer B with literally zero damage, so it's safe to assume that BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama blows Sasuke's PS to shit, yeah.



 

Sasuke's susano'o has demonstrated comparable durability to RSM's fox avatar (both were equally bashed up in the epicenter of a mega chidori/senpo: BD clash). 

EMS Madara's Susano'o has shown nothing pointing to it tanking a nuke the size of multiple biju.



> Nah. Probably based on a smaller version of Madara's PS canonically protecting him from an attack leagues upon leagues superior to anything Naruto can dish out on his own.



What're you even talking about?

Tenpenchii? Failed to harm fodder immersed in a Version 1 cloak.

Juubidama? Nope.

Biju Tail swipes? Obliterated his bipedal Sage Mode Susano'o.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 29, 2015)

I don't understand what people talk about when they think Madara can win this.

How the fuck can Madara even hurt Naruto?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 29, 2015)

so madaras PS protects madara him from an explosion that dwarfs narutos strongest shown bijudama in size, _(VOTE explosion>>>flash bijudama+max bijudama from 5 biju>>flash bijudama)_

as well protecting madara from 4 super ten tails bijudama, which is made evident by it still existing in shroud form,


yet naruto blows it up on his lonesome.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 29, 2015)

That's not evidence. That could just as easily be Madara re-activating Susanō after being vaporized.

What is "Flash Bijūdama"?

Also, while the Valley-of-the-End Shinsūsenju vs. Susanō clash yielded an enormous explosion, the size of it can't be compared to what Naruto did with Gyūki. All we saw of the VOTE one was a fuckton of dust being kicked up. That's not remotely the same as Bijūdama explosions, which show how many mountains were vaporized, or how large the resulting crater was.

And remember, Madara's Susanō was _destroyed_ by that clash. You cannot claim that as a durability feat, the most you can do is give 100% Kurama's regular Bijūdama to it, in durability.

If you compare 100% Kurama's regular-sized bomb, to Bijū Mode Naruto's supersized one... I think you're on the losing end of that argument. Especially if you factor in senjutsu.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 29, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> That's not evidence. That could just as easily be Madara re-activating Susanō after being vaporized.


>reactivating susano right after its destroyed.
>claims that madara is reactivating susano when he doesnt use it at all in any of the following chapters.

unless you want to claim that madaras fan possesses mountain range++++++++ durability since it survived the explosion without a single scratch on it, the explosion did not reach madaras body.



> What is "Flash Bijūdama"?


the bijudama that naruto used against the biju supposedly to match their bijudama.


> Also, while the Valley-of-the-End Shinsūsenju vs. Susanō clash yielded an enormous explosion, the size of it can't be compared to what Naruto did with Gyūki.* All we saw of the VOTE one was a fuckton of dust being kicked up. That's not remotely the same as Bijūdama explosions, which show how many mountains were vaporized, or how large the resulting crater was.*


really now? dust?


not even sure what you are asserting here. 
are you conceding that the VOTE explosion is bigger, but saying that it doesnt count and shouldnt be compared to anything since it doesnt look like a traditional bijudama explosion?



> And remember, Madara's Susanō was _destroyed_ by that clash. You cannot claim that as a durability feat, the most you can do is give 100% Kurama's regular Bijūdama to it, in durability.
> 
> If you compare 100% Kurama's regular-sized bomb, to Bijū Mode Naruto's supersized one... I think you're on the losing end of that argument. Especially if you factor in senjutsu.


madaras PS is destroyed in 2 instances by attacks that dwarf narutos in power, yet madara himself walks out of both instances unharmed. 
naruto doesnt possess firepower on this level, so he cannot destroy PS.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> >reactivating susano right after its destroyed.
> >claims that madara is reactivating susano *when he doesnt use it at all in any of the following chapters.*



That's because the moment after we saw Madara in that panel, Shinjū was activated. There would've been no point to continuing to form Susanō as it would've just been absorbed.

But the point is, we have no idea _what_ happened before we saw Madara in that panel, so why are you claiming a specific instance was occurring? It was off-panel. We don't know what was going on. He could have been reforming Susanō after being vaporized, he could have been summoning that same barrier that blocked the stakes Naruto threw at him before.

We don't know. So to claim that was him after Susanō 'saved' him, is baseless, and therefore fallacious.



> unless you want to claim that madaras fan possesses mountain range++++++++ durability since it survived the explosion without a single scratch on it, the explosion did not reach madaras body.



The whole point of Madara's fan is that it can absorb energy and reflect it. Could it have absorbed the blast? Possibly. Again it was off-panel.

Know what else? I can prove yet again why off-panel 'feats' mean jack shit', I can say, '_oh, Madara desummoned the fan so it wouldn't be destroyed and resummoned it in that panel_' and I *wouldn't* *be any less right than you*.

Why? Because it was off-panel. My claims are just as credible as yours - that is to say, they have zero credibility. You can't claim feats that you didn't see happen.



> really now? dust?
> 
> 
> not even sure what you are asserting here.
> are you conceding that the VOTE explosion is bigger, but saying that it doesnt count and shouldnt be compared to anything *since it doesnt look like a traditional bijudama explosion*?



I didn't 'concede' it was bigger, I always _knew_ it was bigger. Never disagreed on that point.

But the bolded is exactly what I mean. A bunch of dust being kicked up isn't the same as a sphere that vaporizes everything it makes contact with, you literally cannot compare them to each other.

If an explosion of dust that covered an entire continent was shown, it'd _still_ have a smaller energy output than a regular Bijūdama, because what matters is the energy output; ergo, how much was needed to vaporize a certain crater or mountain, etc.

You can't determine jack shit from the VOTE explosion. Like I said, it's just a bunch of dust being kicked up. We can _assume_ it was powerful as hell, but not for the reasons _you're_ saying, which is size. It's because it's *ten fucking Bijūdama detonating simultaneously*.

It's the reason why I don't go around saying Rasenshuriken's explosion in the Chibaku Tensei crater is Bijūdama-level, even though its explosion is certainly comparable in *size* to a regular-sized Bijūdama's diameter. Because in that case, it was *also* a bunch of dust being kicked up.

The rest of your post was just rhetoric.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

Biju Sage Mode Naruto wins both scenarios. The Sage Mode Multiplier + BM's Multiplier = A Naruto stronger than Hashirama. He has the firepower, speed, durability, reflexes...every advantage over EMS Madara. And due to his superior control over Kurama, he can bring out far more power than Madara can with his Kurama control.


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## Empathy (Nov 30, 2015)

Naruto wins both scenarios and I think it's pretty clear. Madara's _Susanoo_ can mostly only improve the Kyuubi's durability by offering a shield around it. Putting _Susanoo_ swords in the bijuu bombs only made it so that Hashirama couldn't catch them, but it didn't improve the destructive capability of the _Bijuudamas_. This was shown when the explosion after clashing with _Gojuu Rashomon_ was the same in magnitude compared to other standard-size _Bijuudamas_, which all only obliterate a single mountain. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Bijuu Naruto could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_, so the he'll tank the 100% Kyuubi's a lot better (and _Susanoo_ won't improve the strength of the Kyuubi's _Bijuudama_). But you, (the imaginary contrarian for the sake of argument) say that doesn't really matter since Madara has a Kyuubi too, and his is the 100% version?which is true, except this is bijuu *sage* Naruto, whose full bijuu form is further augmented by senjutsu. 

If bijuu Naruto can already tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_ (which is superior to the Kyuubi's _Bijuudama_), then bijuu sage Naruto will be able to tank even more _Bijuudamas_ (that aren't imbued with senjutsu) and perfect _Susanoo_ slashes for quite a while before going down (I'd say at least the same amount _Shinsuusenju_ took). But, you persist, there's no way that even with the addition of senjutsu, Naruto's 50% Kyuubi can be defensively superior to Madara's 100% Kyuubi plus perfect _Susanoo_ as armor; which is probably correct. However, natural energy boosts others things (everything), not just durability. While Madara is firing standard-size _Bijuudamas_ at bijuu sage Naruto, who can tank them for a while (since bijuu non-sage Naruto could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_), Naruto will be firing back with _Senpou: Bijuudamas_. Specifically, he can add senjutsu in order to significantly bolster stuff like this, [1], this, [2], and this [3], and make those _Senpou: Chou Bijuudamas_. Madara's _Susanoo_ was busted by this [1] level of destructive capacity from another senpou construct?roughly the size of a mountain range. 

I don't think the VotE was created from that one jutsu clash, but rather over the course of their entire battle, because they continued fighting to the point of exhaustion even after _Susanoo_ was peeled off and the Kyuubi was put to sleep (Madara probably just reformed _Susanoo_ again). Naruto and Sasuke's jutsu clash was roughly the same size as VotE, and they were fighting on a way higher caliber than Hashirama and Madara were, so it's doubtful they were able to create VotE with just one clash (and the explosion [1] and then VotE [2] are just plainly different sizes). If Madara's _Susanoo_ was busted by a senpou, mountain-range sized attack, then a few of Naruto's mountain-range sized, supercharged _Bijuudamas_ with senjutsu added should be more than enough to bust _Susanoo_ based on what its shown. Naruto doesn't really have to kill the 100% Kyuubi after busting _Susanoo_. If _Susanoo_ is blown away, then Madara probably is too, seeing as he can't envelope himself within Kurama like Naruto can, or like he can with _Susanoo_?but even if Naruto did have to, I don't think he'd lose. 

The 50% Kyuubi vs. the 100% Kyuubi argument is brought up a lot, and I think erroneously so. BSM Naruto (the one that fought Juubi Obito) wasn't really using 50% of Kurama's chakra, but pretty much all of it since he took Minato's yang chakra. [1] But even if we were talking about 50% vs. 100%, it's ignoring the pivotal distinction between a jinchuuriki and a bijuu. Most people think this was brought up only in early part II and was then later done away with since the bijuu were rectonned from being feral beasts. But they're wrong, because the jinchuuriki distinction was brought up and relevant when Obito became the Juubi jinchuuriki, and was able to better control and focus the Juubi's power compared to when the Juubi was out by itself. Adding on to that fact, Madara (and Obito) controlling the Kyuubi and Naruto being Kurama's perfect jinchuuriki are not the same thing, power-wise. 

It's the exact same thing as when Madara and Obito were sitting on top of the Juubi and controlling it remotely?compared to Madara and Obito being far more powerful than that when they were each Juubi jinchuurikis. It's the same with Madara controlling the Kyuubi compared to Naruto being the jinchuuriki; except instead of it being controlling the Juubi vs. being the Juubi jinchuuriki, it's the Kyuubi instead. Naruto as a perfect jinchuuriki can have Kurama gather natural energy for him, freely control supercharged _Chou Bijuudamas_, have him form _Rasengan_ variants, make _Kage Bunshins_ etc. When Madara and Obito were each controlling the Kyuubi, they only seemed to be able to direct a pissed-off Kyuubi what to attack at and when to fire standard-size _Bijuudamas_. Naruto, even if he had just 50% of his chakra, is still able to wield and concentrate Kurama's power far better than Madara can when he's only telling the 100% Kyuubi which direction to rage at. The Kyuubi with much less than 50% of its chakra, was still able to produce a mountain range buster like this [1], which is a power Naruto can control freely, whilst Madara never showed the aptitude to command the Kyuubi in such a way. I think even in the case of the Juubi, you can see the _Bijuudama_ disparity compared to being its jinchuuriki and not. [1] [2]

*Edit:* Also, Naruto having to get half of Rikudou Sennin's power just to surpass EMS Madara is stupid. He was smacking around Juubi jinchuuriki Madara at that point.


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## Amol (Nov 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> -snip-


I would have bothered to respond to you properly if you had not acted as edgy teen whose girlfriend has just broke up with him.
That was one cute neg.
Now son look I know you believe that saying BSM Naruto stronger than EMS Madara is end of the world but believe me unless Flash collides with subatomic particle with speed greater than light there is no end of world.
If it helps you sleep at night I also don't like Naruto as character(or any of major cast for that matter)?
All is well . damn you won't get the joke here 
----------------------------------------------
OT : 
Lethality : The Best feat of Madara's PS Sword is cutting mountain. Doing anything to mountains is very normal feat for Top tiers. BSM Avatar has shown exceptional level of durability (especially more than rocks). I will need better feat than this to say that that PS Sword can do anything to BSM Avatar.  Anything other than 'because he is Madara' which nicely co-relates with 'because he is Hashirama' argument. Match made in heaven indeed.
Durability : The Best Feat Madara's PS has is tanking a normal Bijudama which is also very normal feat for Top tiers. Hachibi can also tank a Bijudama.
BSM can do alot more than throw a standard Bijudama. So I need a better feat than that to say Madara's PS can withstood barrage of attacks from BSM.
Anything other than 'because he is Madara'.
Portrayal : BSM has better feats against opponents like Juubi and Juubito who are above EMS Madara's paygrade(God tiers).
If anyone actually lacks relevant feats here then it is Madara. If Author is giving MC 'something' to fight with God tiers then it should be good enough against Top tiers. I especially laughed when someone on first page said that Madara can stomp BSM Naruto. Protrayal can't speak against 'that' any better.
tldr : I firmly believe that most of the people only say Madara here because of nostalgia.
Naruto surpassed old generation when he started to lead alliance against likes of Juubi. 
Luffy won't go challenging Yonkou if he had not even surpassed Ace. That is exactly how it happens in shonen.
And with that I am done with this topic.


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2015)

Madara wins the first scenario  high diff 

 -- his PS durability surpasses BSM narutos given that it survived him in the clash of chojo kobetsu and 12 PS bladed TBB from full kurama. Whilst narutos avatar got eradicated by the far inferior drop slam from juubito. Naruto will never ever even dream of busting Madaras PS before his avatar gets spanked 

 -- flash TBB never gets prepped and even if it gets fired. It gets tanked quite easily, Madaras PS blade covers a range of multiple mountain ranges. If Naruto tries to prep it, then Madara retaliates by swinging his PS blade and spanking him down. 

 -- continuous TBB gets tanked with little to no damage. And regular TBB is out of the question given how Madaras PS tanked full kuramas TBB with almost negligible damage at VOTE. 

 -- FRS is non factor and coming close to Madara is perhaps the dumbest thing Naruto could do as he gets crushed like a bug due to the sheer size difference and the different in their physical strength and durability 

 -- Madara swings his blade as much times as he wants. He can swing two at a time, which would result in Naruto losing a tail each time he swings both of his blades. A head on slash at the body is dealing good damage at Naruto. As after a while narutos avatar gets overwhelmed To oblivion and he gets diced in half 

Scenario 2 is almost a stomp in favor of Madara as PSand full kyuubi blow Naruto to dust


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## StarWanderer (Nov 30, 2015)

How long Naruto can keep up his BSM Kurama Avatar? Kurama needs chakra reload sometimes. 

EMS Madara can exhaust him and when Kurama Avatar goes away, Naruto gets slashed to death. PS can detonate, or deflect Bijuu Damas, even the biggest BD wont be a problem due to PS slashes. As if Naruto will be able to create them in the first place. Madara was capable of creating lots of BD-PS blade combinations in 1 panel, in almost an instant. PS is fast, very durable (withstood Kurama's Bijuu Dama with no damage taken) and Madara can keep it up for a very long time + long-ranged slashes which can counter even Kurama's biggest BDs. 

EMS Madara wins both scenarious.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> That's not evidence. That could just as easily be Madara re-activating Susanō after being vaporized.
> 
> What is "Flash Bijūdama"?
> 
> ...



Lol Jesus Christ.

SASUKE STOPS RUNNING.

-Dust and Smoke.

SASUKE STOPS RUNNING.

Explosion. What happened there is an explosion. It not being the kind of explosion you want to see doesn't matter. What happened when FRS blew up is an explosion. Not dust. Dust is fucking powder. Dust is like smoke. That's not powder.  The reason why you don't go around saying FRS=Bijuu Dama or around that level is because Mountain Sized explosion=/=Mountain Vaporizing capabilities.

I'm sure you are one of the people who believes FRS>=Kirin or something like that. Kirin is a Mountain Buster. FRS creating an explosion like that isn't a surprise. Hell, didn't Shinobi no Kamui already post a picture of BSM Naruto's BD hitting Obito's shield and looking exactly like the VoTE explosion?

I think he did.

Don't claim it was dust either, because Gudo Dama is made of no material that'd kick up all that dust.



> *The whole point of Madara's fan is that it can absorb energy and reflect it*.* Could it have absorbed the blast? Possibly. Again it was off-panel.*
> 
> Know what else? I can prove yet again why off-panel 'feats' mean jack shit', I can say, 'oh, Madara desummoned the fan so it wouldn't be destroyed and resummoned it in that panel' and I wouldn't be any less right than you.



1. Feats being off panel is irrelevant if evidence points to an obvious conclusion, one that can actually be proven.

2. If Madara was turned to dust by that explosion, his fan would be destroyed.

3. The whole "it could've absorbed it" stuff doesn't make a shred of sense when Gunbai absorbs the energy that hits the fan. Bijuu Dama is a 360 degree explosion. Now, how does it get blocked with the fan when Madara himself is getting vaporized in the process? Hmmm

This particular explanation is hilarious since I know I'd never see you or anyone else claim that it can even absorb part of the Juubidama's explosion. At least enough to save Madara.


Why? Because it was off-panel. My claims are just as credible as yours - that is to say, they have zero credibility. You can't claim feats that you didn't see happen.



Kyu said:


> Biju Sage Naruto doesn't need Bee to form a bijudama of that magnitude.
> 
> A _weakened_ Kurama on its own created a bijudama roughly 5 times its size which isn't _too_ far off(both fall in the super BD category) from the nuke he and Bee prepared to shoot off. Logic dictates he'd have very little issue forming an even larger one at full power and he'd produce one exceeding that when incorporating senjutsu.



Senjutsu makes his jutsu stronger, it doesn't give him the capability to make one larger nor do you even have the proof that BSM Naruto's boost is large enough to let him to do so on his own. 



> I'd understand where you were coming from if the sheer volume of chakra Naruto generates didn't outright _dwarf_ Bee's entire reservoir.



Doesn't matter. I suggest you stop dodging the point. Naruto's reservoir is irrelevant. By your "logic" Naruto should be able to make a Bijuu Dama that large in BM alone, yet he can't. He canonically needed Killer B's help. Naruto having the chakra to dump in a jutsu doesn't mean he can dump it in there. 



> The feat only becomes less impressive when someone of equal or higher standing(chakra-wise) aids in forming the BD, then the majority contributed is up for debate.



No, the feat becomes less impressive when Naruto canonically needs help to perform it. What you are saying doesn't even make sense at this point. Naruto and B were telling each other to make it "as big as possible". If 2 people can only make it that big please tell me why Naruto would be able to make it the same size on his own?  




> Sasuke's susano'o has demonstrated comparable durability to RSM's fox avatar (both were equally bashed up in the epicenter of a mega chidori/senpo: BD clash).



 All you've done is demonstrate why your logic makes no sense. Sasuke's Susanoo being able to tank Bijuu Dama doesn't automatically mean that a stronger one destroys it, and the same goes for Madara's. So stop the terrible logic.



> EMS Madara's Susano'o has shown nothing pointing to it tanking a nuke the size of multiple biju.



 



> What're you even talking about?
> 
> Tenpenchii? Failed to harm fodder immersed in a Version 1 cloak.



Irrelevant.



> Juubidama? Nope.



Shinobi no Kami's post handles this point. Unless you think Gunbai>Juubidama you don't have a point.



> Biju Tail swipes? Obliterated his bipedal Sage Mode Susano'o.



Not sure why you felt the need to mention this.

The explosion at VoTe dwarfs anything Naruto can do on his own. Madara was protected from it by a smaller Susanoo. Thus unless Naruto can come close to that level of power he doesn't do anything close to obliterating Susanoo in it's full form.

And he doesn't come close to that level.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Naruto takes this. His regular ol' Bijū Mode avatar could take the Jūbi's laser with only six-tails worth of damage; blocking even Perfect Susanō's slash won't be much trouble.
> 
> Now with _Sage Mode_ in the mix? Sage Mode is a *massive* multiplier; turned Base Naruto into a high-tier amongst Kages. Imagine what it'll do for Bijū Mode. Think of the physical strength difference from Base to Sage Naruto; the difference was tens if not hundreds of times. *For Bijū Mode, the idea of Naruto matching Perfect Susanō in physical strength becomes, actually, possible.*
> 
> But factor in Bijūdama, and there's little chance Madara wins this.



 When BSM Naruto can only match Sasuke's Senjutsu and Kyuubi Chakra enhanced V3 Susanoo in physical strength, durability, or speed, all possibilities of him matching Madara's Susanoo go right out the window..

Taking Base Naruto's gains and applying them to BSM Naruto is pointless when BSM Naruto's gains are nowhere near what you think they should be if you analyze the feats.


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## Kor (Nov 30, 2015)

BSM Naruto mid-diff. Uchiha wank too stronk.

BM > 7 BD; deflected each and every one of them. Naruto makes two clones and combines his avatar to create the dual Senpou: Bijuu Rasenshuriken. One PS slash cannot compare to the destructive power of that. 

SM Naruto overwhelmed 50% Kurama with clone army alone. He can't pull that shit here in BSM? :

It took Sasuke using 8 bijuu batteries to match the power output of 100% Kurama, unless I remember that wrong.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

Why would Madara stand there allowing him to create bunshin, avatars and prep techniques?

Why would he slash the techniques only once? He can machine gun dual slash him with twice the force (two hands on each blade this time) for an undisclosed amount of time. 

Since when can BSM Naruto make cloned avatars?

Since when can BSM Naruto make Bijuu Rasenshuriken?

You do remember it wrong, because Naruto was in Six Path Bijuu Mode when he fought Sasuke. 

BSM Naruto doesn't have any of Rikudo's power here.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

> 500m. Next.


The PS slash traveled multiple kilometers trucking up a shit ton of terrain (_considerably_ larger than BSM Naruto) and still had enough power behind it to slice two mountains in half in the distance... with the terrain it blew up in front of PS still in mid-air as the shockwave went through & past the mountains crashing into terrain and creating smoke clouds that extended above the mountains... 



Now explain how Kage Bunshin are summoned and massive FRS are prepped prior to that shockwave reaching him from half a kilometer away. 

The AoE alone.... literally wide enough to slice through mountains that themselves are multiple kilometers apart, several miles from the origin of the slash.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 30, 2015)

Base Hashirama can react to them. Up close.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

What's your point?

He reacts to them and does what, tails up? 

That would stop FRS from being charged/thrown, effectively countering your argument.


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2015)

Why is BSM Naruto wanked soo much? 
From people believing that he tanks something on the levels of juubidama (just cause he tanked v1 juubis far inferior laser beam) and people believing that he can dish out a TBB superior to that created by both Naruto and bee 

Even though Naruto needed to go all out to form that TBB and needed bee to go all out as well 

And even though narutos BSM avatar got shut wrecked by juubitos drop slam which has a piss small crater to what was created at VOTE

How is a senjutsu boost to half kyuubi bringing Naruto even close to the level of Madaras PS and Full Kyuubi both of which are much superior to regular kurama avatar individually? 

The more you think about it. The more you realize how much Stronger VOTE Madara is, in comparison to Naruto 

Then there's the clowns who think that BSM can just lol tank PSslashes just cause sasukes PS slashes could be tanked
Loll downscaling and feats tell us just how much of a difference there is between Madaras PS and sasukes 
The sheer size. Firepower and durability is on a whole other level


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Why is BSM Naruto wanked soo much?
> From people believing that he tanks something on the levels of juubidama (just cause he tanked v1 juubis far inferior laser beam) and people believing that he can dish out a TBB superior to that created by both Naruto and bee
> 
> Even though Naruto needed to go all out to form that TBB and needed bee to go all out as well
> ...



 Right. Somehow losing 6 tails to an attack like that laser lets him shrug off a far more penetrative attack that splits Mountain Ranges with no damage. Somehow "lol Senjutsu boost" lets him rival PS in physical strength when he only matches Sasuke's KCC Senjutsu Susanoo in that area.


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Right. Somehow losing 6 tails to an attack like that laser lets him shrug off a far more penetrative attack that splits Mountain Ranges with no damage. Somehow "lol Senjutsu boost" lets him rival PS in physical strength when he only matches Sasuke's KCC Senjutsu Susanoo in that area.



I tried arguing the exact same thing in 
The "senju brothers vs Naruto and minato" thread 
Where people were claiming that BSM Naruto busts SS and overpowers it because "lol senjutsu" 

For some reason the clowns here have a strong wank of Naruto and sasuke


----------



## Kor (Nov 30, 2015)

Why can't BSM Naruto make Bijuu Rasenshurikens? He's using Kurama's chakra, chakra is still chakra. 

He was making rasengans in KCM mode and bijuu rasengans in BM, does BSM suddenly make him unable to use his jutsu?


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I tried arguing the exact same thing in
> The "senju brothers vs Naruto and minato" thread
> Where people were claiming that BSM Naruto busts SS and overpowers it because "lol senjutsu"
> 
> For some reason the clowns here have a strong wank of Naruto and sasuke



Lol ridiculous man. Absolutely ridiculous. It seems like when it comes to them all logic gets thrown out the window. Especially with the Adult Naruto and Sasuke BS.



Kor said:


> Why can't BSM Naruto make Bijuu Rasenshurikens? He's using Kurama's chakra, chakra is still chakra.
> 
> He was making rasengans in KCM mode and bijuu rasengans in BM, does BSM suddenly make him unable to use his jutsu?



Hmm, didn't know that Naruto using Rasengan in BM meant he could use BDFRS in BSM? Get the feats or get out. It's really that simple. Stop giving Naruto feats he needed either:

-All the NE in the world.
-Or Six Paths Sage Mode

To perform.


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## LightningForce (Nov 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Hashirama admitted his inferiority to retard-form Obito. Obito even crushed him in the cross-fire of the battle. lol
> [1]
> 
> He did not get involved because he would have been useless anyway. lol
> ...



Lol Hussain, you are perhaps one of the biggest selective readers and manga fact/context distorters I have ever seen on this forum. Especially when you feel the Naruto family's standing including Minato and Boruto is being threatened. Fanboys are okay so long as their logic and arguments are consistent, but you? Clearly, you are beyond reason when it comes to your Naruto wank.

Great, so Hashirama is not stronger than a god tier. However, you're implying BSM Naruto himself is fucking stronger than JJ Obito. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

Hashirama, who has SM, being useless? SM that imbues senjutsu into one's arsenal, which is the entire fucking reason why only Naruto and Sasuke + Jugo were the only possible combatants against JJ Obito at the time? Hashirama, who can go into SM as quick as Naruto could? 

 and you also believe that Naruto could've withstood that Quadriple TBB too, am I right?

I think you forgot the next thing that happened after. Yeah, that Rasengan didn't leave jack.

Learn how to read panels correctly. Hashirama was not even in fucking SM at the time. The amount of natural energy Madara absorbed was very minimal.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 30, 2015)

Damn. Seems I'mma have to go real old school and bring up manga panels aswell. 



DaVizWiz said:


> The PS slash traveled multiple kilometers trucking up a shit ton of terrain (_considerably_ larger than BSM Naruto) and still had enough power behind it to slice two mountains in half in the distance... with the terrain it blew up in front of PS still in mid-air as the shockwave went through & past the mountains crashing into terrain and creating smoke clouds that extended above the mountains...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Link removed
Link removed



DaVizWiz said:


> What's your point?
> 
> He reacts to them and does what, tails up?
> 
> That would stop FRS from being charged/thrown, effectively countering your argument.



Link removed



ARGUS said:


> Why is BSM Naruto wanked soo much?
> From people believing that he tanks something on the levels of juubidama (just cause he tanked v1 juubis far inferior laser beam) and people believing that he can dish out a TBB superior to that created by both Naruto and bee



I don't think there is anyone in the manga who can tank a JuubiDama.

I also don't see why Naruto would need to be dishing out a TBB of that magnitude to win.




> Even though Naruto needed to go all out to form that TBB and needed bee to go all out as well
> 
> And even though narutos BSM avatar got shut wrecked by juubitos drop slam which has a piss small crater to what was created at VOTE
> 
> How is a senjutsu boost to half kyuubi bringing Naruto even close to the level of Madaras PS and Full Kyuubi both of which are much superior to regular kurama avatar individually?



Yet a RSM TBB only fizzled up Sasuke's superior PS a little.

One must learn to distinguish when the author does something to showcase someone's power or to just add a dramatic effect to the situation.

And why does this even matter to begin with? The avatars came right back up regardless. 



> The more you think about it. The more you realize how much Stronger VOTE Madara is, in comparison to Naruto
> 
> Then there's the clowns who think that BSM can just lol tank PSslashes just cause sasukes PS slashes could be tanked
> Loll downscaling and feats tell us just how much of a difference there is between Madaras PS and sasukes
> The sheer size. Firepower and durability is on a whole other level





KeyofMiracles said:


> .



PS Kurama's size is not as intimidating as PS on its own (Madara's specifically). If Naruto could tango with Juubi - Kurama's size won't be a deciding factor here.



> -Not an argument.
> -Not a feat.
> -Zero evidence for any of your BS claims.



This 'non-argument' was a response to your non-legitimate response to my legitimate argument. I treat your responses the same way you treat mine. Simple.




> This distance is irrelevant. Naruto's roar's best feat is pushing back Bijuu, and leaving them unharmed in the process.



It wasn't in his intentions to do any harm. Plus senjutsu. Next.



> If you think that Naruto's roar can weaken something that splits a Mountain range you are merely a deluded fanboy. It's really that simple. I'm trying my hardest to take your claims seriously, but when you claim shit like:
> 
> -Roars weaken shockwaves cuz distance.
> -Naruto restrains PS cuz Senjutsu.
> -Bijuu Dama wrecks Susanoo cuz "lol it's big"



The manga is over. Back in the day, I would've been more hesitant to throw out arguments like this. It was an invisible rule we all obeyed. But the,'I want to be spoon fed err'thanggg' days are done. We MUST use reason and logic at this point to gauge certain things.

If a Naruto clone, can toss 50% Kurama. That shows the power of senjutsu. If we aren't willing to do - quite frankly some remarkably EASY power scaling; Then you people are insulting your own intelligence and I would recommend you cease responding to my arguments going forward. 



> It's pretty hard to take what you people are saying seriously.



Everything said stands and is supported on a firm foundation that I can argue until my fingers fall off. 



> Hmm, allow me to reiterate "Rikudo's Power".  Cut the bullshit pal. It's getting pretty old coming from you guys. When you have a scan of a Naruto w/o Hagoromo's power being able to take in that much Nature Energy, and use BDFRS or FRS w/ his Avatar then we can talk. Get scans of him using clones too cause I'm not interested in your logic.



Spoon fed debaters. The worst kind. Manga is over. Be open-minded enough to use basic logic and reason at this point or just leave the Dome/remain a spectator.



> Hmm, didn't know that PS Kurama=Regular Kurama.



The Susanoo is just a coat or armor. Not a strength enhancer. 



> Lmfao. Try again son.



Not even trying to begin with. This is easy.




> Lol @ you having the nerve to mention any bad qualities about anyone's debating. The only bad debating in this thread is coming from pretty much everyone supporting Naruto in this case. Whether it be ridiculous gaps in logic, gaps that can be filled with nothing but common sense. Or exaggeration of Naruto's feats and denial of Madara's feats in order to come to the conclusion that Naruto wins both scenarios.



Go back to my original post in this thread - counter everything DIRECTLY - gain points.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Right. Somehow losing 6 tails to an attack like that laser lets him shrug off a far more penetrative attack that splits Mountain Ranges with no damage. Somehow "lol Senjutsu boost" lets him rival PS in physical strength when he only matches Sasuke's KCC Senjutsu Susanoo in that area.



What on Earth gives you the idea that PS Slashes have more penetrative power than a Juubi-Laser.

Juubi-Laser is damage over time aswell UNTOP of the initial penetrative strike that had to be tanked. Not one quick blunt hit.
Finally.
All Naruto was doing was deflecting Sasuke's blows and remaining on the offensive against his Normal PS. (in the first exchange)


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

A panel of Hashirama's Mokuton being trashed by shock waves, and Hashirama running away from PS Kurama?

Are you implying Naruto runs from his shock waves? Won't really work once he throws out a 360 degree dual slash.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 30, 2015)

Your post is worth quoting since it was so well put together my good sir. Let's dive in.



Empathy said:


> Naruto wins both scenarios and I think it's pretty clear. Madara's _Susanoo_ can mostly only improve the Kyuubi's durability by offering a shield around it. Putting _Susanoo_ swords in the bijuu bombs only made it so that Hashirama couldn't catch them, but it didn't improve the destructive capability of the _Bijuudamas_. This was shown when the explosion after clashing with _Gojuu Rashomon_ was the same in magnitude compared to other standard-size _Bijuudamas_, which all only obliterate a single mountain. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Bijuu Naruto could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_, so the he'll tank the 100% Kyuubi's a lot better (and _Susanoo_ won't improve the strength of the Kyuubi's _Bijuudama_). But you, (the imaginary contrarian for the sake of argument) say that doesn't really matter since Madara has a Kyuubi too, and his is the 100% version?which is true, except this is bijuu *sage* Naruto, whose full bijuu form is further augmented by senjutsu.



Indeed. Senjutsu must be acknowledged. It is unfortunate BSM last for a chapter so his capabilities weren't explored thoroughly. 



> If bijuu Naruto can already tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_ (which is superior to the Kyuubi's _Bijuudama_), then bijuu sage Naruto will be able to tank even more _Bijuudamas_ (that aren't imbued with senjutsu) and perfect _Susanoo_ slashes for quite a while before going down (I'd say at least the same amount _Shinsuusenju_ took). But, you persist, there's no way that even with the addition of senjutsu, Naruto's 50% Kyuubi can be defensively superior to Madara's 100% Kyuubi plus perfect _Susanoo_ as armor; which is probably correct.



I agree aswell.



> However, natural energy boosts others things (everything), not just durability. While Madara is firing standard-size _Bijuudamas_ at bijuu sage Naruto, who can tank them for a while (since bijuu non-sage Naruto could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_), Naruto will be firing back with _Senpou: Bijuudamas_. Specifically, he can add senjutsu in order to significantly bolster stuff like this, [1], this, [2], and this [3], and make those _Senpou: Chou Bijuudamas_. Madara's _Susanoo_ was busted by this [1] level of destructive capacity from another senpou construct?roughly the size of a mountain range.



Now this is another thing. If it ever comes down to a raw fire-power exchange, it's clear who is superior. If you take into account the amount of ANGLES Naruto can strike from aswell - that gives him the benefit of CONNECTING more of those hits aswell.



> I don't think the VotE was created from that one jutsu clash, but rather over the course of their entire battle, because they continued fighting to the point of exhaustion even after _Susanoo_ was peeled off and the Kyuubi was put to sleep (Madara probably just reformed _Susanoo_ again). Naruto and Sasuke's jutsu clash was roughly the same size as VotE, and they were fighting on a way higher caliber than Hashirama and Madara were, so it's doubtful they were able to create VotE with just one clash (and the explosion [1] and then VotE [2] are just plainly different sizes). If Madara's _Susanoo_ was busted by a senpou, mountain-range sized attack, then a few of Naruto's mountain-range sized, supercharged _Bijuudamas_ with senjutsu added should be more than enough to bust _Susanoo_ based on what its shown. Naruto doesn't really have to kill the 100% Kyuubi after busting _Susanoo_. If _Susanoo_ is blown away, then Madara probably is too, seeing as he can't envelope himself within Kurama like Naruto can, or like he can with _Susanoo_?but even if Naruto did have to, I don't think he'd lose.




The argument I made for the Post-Susanoo destruction, was that all Naruto has to do is touch Kurama to break the Genjutsu.



> The 50% Kyuubi vs. the 100% Kyuubi argument is brought up a lot, and I think erroneously so. BSM Naruto (the one that fought Juubi Obito) wasn't really using 50% of Kurama's chakra, but pretty much all of it since he took Minato's yang chakra. [1] But even if we were talking about 50% vs. 100%, it's ignoring the pivotal distinction between a jinchuuriki and a bijuu. Most people think this was brought up only in early part II and was then later done away with since the bijuu were rectonned from being feral beasts. But they're wrong, because the jinchuuriki distinction was brought up and relevant when Obito became the Juubi jinchuuriki, and was able to better control and focus the Juubi's power compared to when the Juubi was out by itself. Adding on to that fact, Madara (and Obito) controlling the Kyuubi and Naruto being Kurama's perfect jinchuuriki are not the same thing, power-wise.



True. One panel to support this would be how Obito's CHAKRA ARMS ripped the Hokage barrier apart.



> It's the exact same thing as when Madara and Obito were sitting on top of the Juubi and controlling it remotely?compared to Madara and Obito being far more powerful than that when they were each Juubi jinchuurikis. It's the same with Madara controlling the Kyuubi compared to Naruto being the jinchuuriki; except instead of it being controlling the Juubi vs. being the Juubi jinchuuriki, it's the Kyuubi instead. Naruto as a perfect jinchuuriki can have Kurama gather natural energy for him, freely control supercharged _Chou Bijuudamas_, have him form _Rasengan_ variants, make _Kage Bunshins_ etc. When Madara and Obito were each controlling the Kyuubi, they only seemed to be able to direct a pissed-off Kyuubi what to attack at and when to fire standard-size _Bijuudamas_. Naruto, even if he had just 50% of his chakra, is still able to wield and concentrate Kurama's power far better than Madara can when he's only telling the 100% Kyuubi which direction to rage at. The Kyuubi with much less than 50% of its chakra, was still able to produce a mountain range buster like this [1], which is a power Naruto can control freely, whilst Madara never showed the aptitude to command the Kyuubi in such a way. I think even in the case of the Juubi, you can see the _Bijuudama_ disparity compared to being its jinchuuriki and not. [1] [2]
> 
> *Edit:* Also, Naruto having to get half of Rikudou Sennin's power just to surpass EMS Madara is stupid. He was smacking around Juubi jinchuuriki Madara at that point.



Agreed. Wouldn't add anything more


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 30, 2015)

So... has mindrape been put down in this debate or is this still a nukefest?

cause madara has a lot of experience mindraping the kyuubi.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

Jak N Blak said:


> PS Kurama's size is not as intimidating as PS on its own (Madara's specifically). If Naruto could tango with Juubi - Kurama's size won't be a deciding factor here.



Naruto can't tango with the Juubi. Naruto can get raped by the Juubi and literally no other course of action will go down if Naruto went face to face with it. Period. Size isn't even important here so why do you keep mentioning it?





> This 'non-argument' was a response to your non-legitimate response to my legitimate argument. I treat your responses the same way you treat mine. Simple.



You don't have a legitimate argument. You or anyone else in this thread is yet to actually show that BSM Naruto has the physical power to tango with Perfect Susanoo. Can't address what doesn't exist. Sorry bud.





> It wasn't in his intentions to do any harm. Plus senjutsu. Next.



1. Irrelevant. Doesn't change the power of the on panel roar.
2. Irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that you've yet to actually prove that a Senjutsu boost will let him go from pushing back Bijuu to weakening Mountain Range splitting shockwaves.

Try again.




> The manga is over. Back in the day, I would've been more hesitant to throw out arguments like this. It was an invisible rule we all obeyed. But the,'I want to be spoon fed err'thanggg' days are done. We MUST use reason and logic at this point to gauge certain things.



Yes, we do. That's all I'm asking from you Naruto supporters.



> If a Naruto clone, can toss 50% Kurama. That shows the power of senjutsu. If we aren't willing to do - quite frankly some remarkably EASY power scaling; Then you people are insulting your own intelligence and I would recommend you cease responding to my arguments going forward.



So Naruto lifting 50% Kurama means that Sage Kurama Avatar can tango with a FAR superior entity? Yeah, no. There you go using garbage logic again instead of actually using feats like anyone with common sense would do.

-Feats show that BSM Naruto can physically match Sasuke's Kyuubi Chakra Cloaked Senjutsu V3 Susanoo. Madara's PS is superior to that Susanoo physically by far and it's not even close. So tell me more about how BSM Naruto>PS in physical power.




> Everything said stands and is supported on a firm foundation that I can argue until my fingers fall off.



No, it's not. The talk is amusing though.



> Spoon fed debaters. The worst kind. Manga is over. Be open-minded enough to use basic logic and reason at this point or just leave the Dome/remain a spectator.



All I read here is "be open minded enough to accept fanfiction as canon since I can't actually prove my stance with feats".  Stop it. You're killing me.

Rikudo's power boosts every single one of Naruto's capabilities, so stop using a boosted Naruto as evidence that a weaker Naruto can do what you claim he can do. That simple.




> The Susanoo is just a coat or armor. Not a strength enhancer.



Iso Susanoo lets Madara coat Kurama with his armor and the arms of his PS. The arms of his PS contain the physical power of his PS as they send out the same Mountain Range splitting shockwaves as Madara's PS as an Edo Tensei.






> Go back to my original post in this thread - counter everything DIRECTLY - gain points.



I could, and I will later on. Though it's funny how you talk of me countering your points when you or anyone arguing for Naruto is yet to actually address anything against Naruto here.






> What on Earth gives you the idea that PS Slashes have more penetrative power than a Juubi-Laser.



It's more focused. I never said it had more penetrative power. It's just more focused, thus easier at penetrating a defense. That's a fact.



> Juubi-Laser is damage over time aswell UNTOP of the initial *penetrative *strike that had to be tanked. Not one quick blunt hit.



Wrong. The laser is not penetrative nor is it anywhere near as penetrative as PS's blade. I've already explained why PS can damage Naruto (not as much as the laser obviously) so I'll just copy and paste that here.



> Finally.
> All Naruto was doing was deflecting Sasuke's blows and remaining on the offensive against his Normal PS. (in the first exchange)



He was matching Sasuke's blows. Let's not try to twist what was shown here. If he was stronger he would've overwhelmed Sasuke and vice versa. But that's not even what I'm talking about here so why mention it? I'm obviously talking about Sasuke and Naruto vs. Juubito.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> So... has mindrape been put down in this debate or is this still a nukefest?
> 
> cause madara has a lot of experience mindraping the kyuubi.


Naruto can break Kurama out of it, not to mention that controlling a Biju inside a Perfect Jinchuriki has been shown to be impossible.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

Jak N Blak said:


> The durability feats of both parties have been laid out on the table. You people are fighting the WRONG enemy in this debate. It's not about who can tank and endure more... NO. It's about who can get hit the LEAST and It's about who can connect their attacks MORE that will come out the victor. THAT is where this debate needs to shift too.
> 
> Naruto CLEARLY wins this battle since that is what it inevitably comes down to.[/B][/B]
> 
> ...



Where in the world did you read this? PS Kurama charged at Hashirama, Hashirama jumped away, then it fired a Bijuu Dama. Please show scans of Hashirama evading any of it's actual attacks and then we can discuss that. Anyway, EMS Sasuke can track Obito's flight speed. So Naruto's speed is child's play in comparison to someone faster than that. Naruto is tracked and his clones are one shotted with PS's shockwaves.

-Clones can't redirect Bijuu Dama without use of the full Avatar, and only one Naruto can do that at a time going by FEATS.
-Even if he could, he can only deflect regular Bijuu Dama, which are pretty much useless.
-And last but not least, he can't since Madara's BD have blades in them. If he tried to deflect them he'd get cut apart.

FRS never deflects PS's attacks as PS's attacks are far stronger. Same goes with Kurama. Not sure why in the world you think that's even possible, but given some of the stuff I've read in this thread I can't be surprised anymore.




> *Simple chakra roars can significantly WEAKEN the impact any PS shockwave strike can make aswell. If BSM Kurama gets in close, with his 9 Tails he can easily dance around PSKurama and even temporarily disarm the Lord in CQC.
> *


*

Addressed this chakra roar BS. Not sure BSM Kurama is supposed to overpower PS in CQC when a Senjutsu KCC V3 Susanoo is enough to match him in that category.




			Something not being entertained, but the fact that BSM can most likely RESTRAIN PSKurama is not a joke either. SENJUTSU IS A SERIOUS STRENGTH BUFF. If one BSM Kurama can't do it, I'm sure 3 or 5 can with their tails grasping PSKurama at all his points of mobility. Disagree? You're deluded. That easily leaves the door open for the clones to sacrifice themselves so that the real Naruto can send PSKurama packing with a Super-Bijuudama sent down path.
		
Click to expand...

*
Oh look. It's you doing exactly what I said you were doing. Claiming Naruto does "X" because "lol Senjutsu. Lmfao. When the feats present themselves then we can talk. Until then, I'll stick with the Manga's showing of Naruto's physical strength.

Madara's PS>>>KCC Senjutsu Susanoo=BSM Avatar. 

The whole Bijuu Dama vs. Susanoo thing has been addressed. Naruto's strongest BD isn't anywhere near as powerful as what Madara's Susanoo has already protected him from.



> =======================
> The Ultimate means of making PSKurama sit down and be restrained though? Food Cart Destroyer. One Chief Toad not enough? How About FOUR SITTING on his ass?



PS cuts them all in half or just tosses them off.




> Humanoid BSM Naruto's speed. This is the BIG difference. While Madara's attacks can be WASTED on clone after clone...ALL of Naruto's attacks on Madara add up DIRECTLY. If Naruto's clone gets hit - it affects the main not one bit. Even his avatar's damage STILL really doesn't affect the main body. Even so, BSM Naruto can spawn INDIVIDUAL parts of Lord Kurama for combat. He does NOT need the entire form to be as potent as he is.



Yeah, just stop. You make zero sense. His speed is irrelevant as explained above. His attacks being wasted on clone after clone makes no sense when his attacks cover the entire fucking battlefield.





> *Finally - Naruto's mini-clone army. In the battle of the mind between Lord Kurama and Naruto - we saw how effective a little clone army of SM Clones were against a significantly larger opponent. If Naruto manages to get one BSM clone in close (which he will) he can spawn an army of Base SM Clones. All those Giant Rasengans and the COMBINED strength of the clones army can MAN-HANDLE PSKurama and totally take him off balance / send him wherever or INTO whatever they want (toss PS into an incoming Super-Bijudama for instance).*


*

-Mini Clone army is irrelevant. A single swing of his blade wipes all clones not protected by an Avatar out in a single strike.

-Mentioning Rasengan is irrelevant as no Rasengan barrage matches what Madara's PS already tanked with no damage. Kurama's Bijuu Dama.

-Manhandling PS Kurama is impossible when PS>>>BSM Kurama>>>Naruto's clone army in physical strength.

I find it funny how your entire argument in a nut shell is, Naruto makes mass clones and runs up to Madara's Susanoo while magically evading all attacks, manhandles it and throws it into Bijuu Dama all while Madara sits there with his thumb up his ass.





			The possibilities are ENDLESS for Naruto & Lord Kurama. Sure, Madara will get some hits on Naruto...
But will they be hits that COUNT though? Every.Single.HIT. Naruto gets on Madara will be a hit that COUNTS and ADDS UP in the long-term of the battle.
		
Click to expand...

*


> ====================
> 
> BSM Naruto is the winner.



This is pretty much one of those arguments where you type a lot but actually say very very little.

Madara is the winner in both scenarios.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Why is BSM Naruto wanked soo much?
> From people believing that he tanks something on the levels of juubidama (just cause he tanked v1 juubis far inferior laser beam) and people believing that he can dish out a TBB superior to that created by both Naruto and bee


The fact Naruto could tank an attack from the Juubi means that Perfect Susanoo's slashes are not getting through, ARGUS. The level of power the Juubi has in its first form is so superior to a non-Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo its not even funny. 

Naruto's VERY. FIRST. USAGE of Bijudama was the 'Super' form, equal to the combined might of five Biju. He can form it on his own without Bee, hell he added most of the power to that Bijudama.


> Even though Naruto needed to go all out to form that TBB and needed bee to go all out as well


Naruto forms Super Bijudama without Bee.


> And even though narutos BSM avatar got shut wrecked by juubitos drop slam which has a piss small crater to what was created at VOTE


You do realize how DEEP that crater was? It was like an Evening Elephant from Eight-Gated Guy, something so much powerful than any power thrown by the Valley of the End.


> How is a senjutsu boost to half kyuubi bringing Naruto even close to the level of Madaras PS and Full Kyuubi both of which are much superior to regular kurama avatar individually?


How are they 'superior'? 100% Kurama there was throwing his power around randomly. Naruto was focusing far more power than Madara did despite his Kurama being 'less complete'.


> The more you think about it. The more you realize how much Stronger VOTE Madara is, in comparison to Naruto


Only if you ignore everything Naruto has done, downplay him and his opponents, and wank Madara and Hashirama to insane amounts like Shinobi no Kami.


> Then there's the clowns who think that BSM can just lol tank PSslashes just cause sasukes PS slashes could be tanked
> Loll downscaling and feats tell us just how much of a difference there is between Madaras PS and sasukes
> The sheer size. Firepower and durability is on a whole other level


Why would Sasuke's pre-Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo be weaker than EMS Madara's? All Perfect Susanoo are the same size. Other than just wanking Madara, why would it be weaker other than your own preference?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Where in the world did you read this? PS Kurama charged at Hashirama, Hashirama jumped away, then it fired a Bijuu Dama. Please show scans of Hashirama evading any of it's actual attacks and then we can discuss that.



 how DEEP that crater was?

I hope you don't believe Hashirama 'jumping away' was the cause of of all the chaos happening in the 5th panel.

Praying to God.





> Anyway, EMS Sasuke can track Obito's flight speed. So Naruto's speed is child's play in comparison to someone faster than that.



Obito does not become a flash of light when he flies around.




> Naruto is tracked and his clones are one shotted with PS's shockwaves.



Mmhm.



> -Clones can't redirect Bijuu Dama without use of the full Avatar, and only one Naruto can do that at a time going by FEATS.



Quite desperate for an argument I'd say. First the Obito flight thing now this. 
Let's see what else you have in store for me. 
Naruto did not need complete Kurama to deflect the TBB - He flashed infront of The Master and used a tail swipe to deflect them.

The whole thing about only one Naruto can blahblah makes me want to go to the doctor tomorrow to ensure I don't have cancer from reading that.



> -Even if he could, he can only deflect regular Bijuu Dama, which are pretty much useless.
> -And last but not least, he can't since Madara's BD have blades in them. If he tried to deflect them he'd get cut apart.



Naruto used a Tail to deflect them. Not his own limbs. Naruto is great at averaging aswell, seeing he shot he Flash BijuuDama at the perfect angle to send his & the other Tailed Beasts Bijudama traveling upward above them. And like you said - if Sasuke (and naruto cough) can see Obito's spectacular Flight speed, targeting the bottom of those Sword-Damas won't be an issue.
-smiles -



> FRS never deflects PS's attacks as PS's attacks are far stronger. Same goes with Kurama. Not sure why in the world you think that's even possible, but given some of the stuff I've read in this thread I can't be surprised anymore.



A Tailed Beast Bomb is not larger than an expanded FRS. It's amusingly smaller.

 how DEEP that crater was?





> Addressed this chakra roar BS. Not sure BSM Kurama is supposed to overpower PS in CQC when a Senjutsu KCC V3 Susanoo is enough to match him in that category.



I don't recall what happened in the manga that makes you say this. Refresh my memory.




> Oh look. It's you doing exactly what I said you were doing. Claiming Naruto does "X" because "lol Senjutsu. Lmfao.



Oh my. Forgive me for having a mind of my own that can think and put 2 & 2 together. Sorry. My bad. Time to go watch Fox News and CNN and let them spoon feed some more shit.



> When the feats present themselves then we can talk. Until then, I'll stick with the Manga's showing of Naruto's physical strength.
> 
> Madara's PS>>>KCC Senjutsu Susanoo=BSM Avatar.



Let me take you to class.


Natural energy balances with the user's chakra pool equally.



Naruto & Lord Kurama's combined reserves' size. Note: it extends beyond the panel.



With Naruto's chakra alone, one of his clones were capable of tossing Kurama.
 how DEEP that crater was?

If I was a Ninja with photoshop - I could fit Naruto's chakra pool into Kurama's 6-8 times.

Scale what Senjutsu allowed him to do with his own reserves to the pool he receives with Kurama - it is clear as day PSKurama is not going to be the superior in the strength department.



> The whole Bijuu Dama vs. Susanoo thing has been addressed. Naruto's strongest BD isn't anywhere near as powerful as what Madara's Susanoo has already protected him from.



I didn't even laugh. What is this.



> PS cuts them all in half or just tosses them off.



Lol. Looks like you got lazy half where through here man.

Nah: Bunta, Ken, Hiro & Chi sit on PS Kurama and he won't be moving.


Let me explain how for safe measure - clones - Yellow Flash Speed - Instantaneous Summons on Kurama's back / Head / Legs / Arms. Pick your poison.

Large enough window for A Super Bijudama to connect.



> Yeah, just stop. You make zero sense. His speed is irrelevant as explained above. His attacks being wasted on clone after clone makes no sense when his attacks cover the *entire fucking battlefield.*




Hashirama and his clone seemed quite fine.

Why ? Cuz . PSST = THE SHIT IS LINEAR AS FUCK.




> -Mini Clone army is irrelevant. A single swing of his blade wipes all clones not protected by an Avatar out in a single strike.



Keyword from my post - GET IN CLOSE. Once close enough, thanks to the Yellow Flash speed of any one clone, all that swinging becomes irrelevant when the clones are by his feet/under his belly putting in that work. That's why Hashirama didn't have to deal with a shockwave when the sword was swung on him at close range.



> -Mentioning Rasengan is irrelevant as no Rasengan barrage matches what Madara's PS already tanked with no damage. Kurama's Bijuu Dama.



One Budha palm seems irrelevant. Throw in 1000 and Huston, we have a problem.
Power in numbers. Believe it.

But I didn't mention Rasengans as a means of contributing damage - but a means of throw PSKurama off course / distract / create windows of opportunity.




> -Manhandling PS Kurama is impossible when PS>>>BSM Kurama>>>Naruto's clone army in physical strength.



I promise you. 100 SM clones can take PSKurama right off his feet. If fodder Konoha Ninja could push Kurama out the village, these clones can push him around too. They will be a nuisance that will give Naruto the openings he needs.



> I find it funny how your entire argument in a nut shell is, Naruto makes mass clones and runs up to Madara's Susanoo while magically evading all attacks, manhandles it and throws it into Bijuu Dama all while Madara sits there with his thumb up his ass.



Nah. That's just your butchered, selective memory version of it.




> This is pretty much one of those arguments where you type a lot but actually say very very little.
> 
> Madara is the winner in both scenarios.



Kewl.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto can break Kurama out of it, not to mention that controlling a Biju inside a Perfect Jinchuriki has been shown to be impossible.


Except what Obito did to the ambassador of the jinchuriki, the mizukage yagura, for several years.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

In the fight against Sasuke towards the end of the manga, did Naruto have SPSM? I thought it was just him and Kurama vs. Sasuke & the other bijuu.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

He had truthseekers, which he throws [1], then immediately enters an avatar [2].

Later, in this psuedo feeling thought world when they exchange another attack, he's shown with Gudodama [1]

That is Rikudo Bijuu Mode.

VOTE2 Naruto's eyes: [1]

BSM Naruto's eyes: [2]

Different modes.


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## Kyu (Nov 30, 2015)

> Senjutsu makes his jutsu stronger, it doesn't give him the capability to make one larger nor do you even have the proof that BSM Naruto's boost is large enough to let him to do so on his own.



Larger Bijudama = Stronger Nuke




> -snip-



So Naruto can't create a biju+ sized nuke because of a collaboration feat done with someone nowhere near his level in regards to the amount of chakra he puts into the jutsu, in spite of a neutered Kurama making a super bijudama by himself?

Gotcha.



> All you've done is demonstrate why your logic makes no sense. Sasuke's Susanoo being able to tank Bijuu Dama doesn't automatically mean that a stronger one destroys it, and the same goes for Madara's.



Why use a susano'o above madara's as an example? That makes no sense. BSM Naruto is an ant to those of the rikudou class(e.g. VotEII Sasuke, Naruto, Juubi Jins etc.). His super bijudama can't compare to RSM Naruto's regular sagedama.



> Me said:
> 
> 
> 
> > EMS Madara's Susano'o has shown nothing pointing to it tanking a nuke the size of multiple biju.





> Shinobi no Kami's post handles this point. Unless you think Gunbai>Juubidama you don't have a point.


You're claiming PS tanks a Senpo super nuke because madara had an initial susano'o aura around him, therefore assuming PS prevented him from being vaporized?

A series of events took place in between the explosion and once we see Madara again; he isn't still going to have mere remnants of Perfect Susano'o active when he's constantly preventing Hashirama from intervening.

Gunbai remaining intact is an outlier - as if we hadn't seen one of those before.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

He doesn't need to tank it, he can literally blow the bijuudama back with the mountain-severing slashes, which would send it back at him and one-panel vaporize Naruto, or simply interrupt him while he's charging that slow ass variant by slashing him. 

BM Naruto with BM Bee could create a bijuudama of equal size to the one 50% Kurama made [1].

BSM Naruto didn't. 

BSM Naruto starts charging Bijuudama, Minato adds in, with double the charge time and power (two 50% Kurama) ->

they get no where close to finishing after several panels of character banter and Obito releasing the barrier around them, the manifestation of the Juubi out of his back, then the God Tree manifestation, which interrupts the jutsu and destroys it [1] [2]

Both charges were slow as shit, despite Naruto receiving help both times from two other powerful Jinchuriki who accelerated the growth and power of the technique. Madara would slash him 20 times over if he attempted charging that large bomb himself.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He had truthseekers, which he throws [1], then immediately enters an avatar [2].
> 
> Later, in this psuedo feeling thought world when they exchange another attack, he's shown with Gudodama [1]
> 
> ...



Agh okay, I'd say he Naruto wins Scenario 1 regardless, but Scenario 2 with the Kyuubi I think would require VotE II Naruto.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 30, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Larger Bijudama = Stronger Nuke



Yes. Obviously. Irrelevant to anything I said though since that doesn't change the fact that Senjutsu doesn't make his BD larger. It makes them stronger. Stronger chakra (Senjutsu)=Stronger Nuke even if it's the same size as the regular nuke.

-RSM Naruto's Bijuu Dama is the same size as Full Kurama's yet the former's is far stronger.
-V2 Juubi's is smaller than Naruto's Flash BD, yet it's far stronger.






> *So Naruto can't create a biju+ sized nuke* because of a collaboration feat done with someone nowhere near his level in regards to the amount of chakra he puts into the jutsu, in spite of a neutered Kurama making a super bijudama by himself?
> 
> Gotcha.


 
Naruto can't create the nuke you are specifying on his own because he needed help to do it. End of fucking story. Let's not twist my words around when I'm sure you are capable of understanding the English language.




> Why use a susano'o above madara's as an example? That makes no sense. BSM Naruto is an ant to those of the rikudou class(e.g. VotEII Sasuke, Naruto, Juubi Jins etc.). His super bijudama can't compare to RSM Naruto's regular sagedama.



The power of the Susanoo is irrelevant. The logic you are using is the issue. If your logic doesn't work for one entity then why would you apply it to another?  This isn't a hard concept to grasp. 




> You're claiming PS tanks a Senpo super nuke because madara had an initial susano'o aura around him, therefore assuming PS prevented him from being vaporized?


No, that and mainly because his PS canonically protected him from a far stronger attack. Which has been one of the main focuses of this argument for the last 3 pages. The explosion at VoTE dwarfs anything Naruto can do on his own. If a PS can soak up all that damage it obviously isn't going to be destroyed by something far weaker. Now return that PS to it's original size and not a downsized version made to fit Kurama and you come to the conclusion that Naruto's nukes don't one shot or even seriously damage PS. The only way they get through is if Madara does nothing while Naruto does this.



> A series of events took place in between the explosion *and once we see Madara again; he isn't still going to have mere remnants of Perfect Susano'o active when he's constantly preventing Hashirama from intervening*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Except what Obito did to the ambassador of the jinchuriki, the mizukage yagura, for several years.


We actually don't know exactly what happened there, do we? How did Obito control him?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

Mei directly stated the Mizukage was being controlled  [1]

Kisame confirms, Obito confirms [1] [2]

It's Sharingan Genjutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Mei directly stated the Mizukage was put under an illusion for years.


Yeah, control _Yagura_, not Isobu inside him. And the genjutsu used was also compared to Kotoamatsukami by Mei and Ao, showing it was so subtle it couldn't be detected. Something Madara doesn't have.


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## Dr. White (Nov 30, 2015)

It was not a separate genjutsu from base shari genjutsu. Simply top tier control applied over years.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 30, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, control _Yagura_, not Isobu inside him. And the genjutsu used was also compared to Kotoamatsukami by Mei and Ao, showing it was so subtle it couldn't be detected. Something Madara doesn't have.


Yagura, Isobu, what does it matter?

The Perfect Jinchuriki was controlled like a puppet by a dude with one-MS. 

Naruto is a perfect jinchuriki, Madara has two Eternal MS, and is a transcendent of Indra, the originator of the Eteneral MS.

There's certainly a chance Madara, the superior Uchiha by all means, can replicate what Obito did to Yagura with twice the Sharingan in quantity (2 EMS > 1 MS), and better in quality (EMS > MS) if he lands his best Genjutsu on him.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, control _Yagura_, not Isobu inside him. And the genjutsu used was also compared to Kotoamatsukami by Mei and Ao, showing it was so subtle it couldn't be detected. Something Madara doesn't have.


By hype Madara was said to have tamed the full 100% Kyuubi without any problems, Obito replicated that feat. I'd say the two aren't far off in comparison and taking the words of shinobi who don't have an inkling of how the sharingan works to begin with is just bad sourcing.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yagura, Isobu, what does it matter?


Since that was the distinction that was made. yagura was under control while the seal around Isobu protected it from control.


> The Perfect Jinchuriki was controlled like a puppet by a dude with one-MS.


The Biju inside wasn't controlled though, which was being alluded to by Deer Lord.


> Naruto is a perfect jinchuriki, Madara has two Eternal MS, and is a transcendent of Indra, the originator of the Eteneral MS.


Doesn't mean Madara can control Kurama INSIDE Naruto DaVizWiz.


> There's certainly a chance Madara, the superior Uchiha by all means, can replicate what Obito did to Yagura with twice the Sharingan in quantity (2 EMS > 1 MS), and better in quality (EMS > MS) if he lands his best Genjutsu on him.


How can Madara replicate it when he doesn't have the feats for it? Again, Obito's genjutsu was compared to _Kotoamatsukami_, the manga's strongest Mangekyo Genjutsu. How can Madara replicate something like that from the feats he's shown?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> By hype Madara was said to have tamed the full 100% Kyuubi without any problems, Obito replicated that feat. I'd say the two aren't far off in comparison and taking the words of shinobi who don't have an inkling of how the sharingan works to begin with is just bad sourcing.


Control Kurama. Outside a seal. That's a LOT different than controlling Kurama INSIDE one. Hell Obito had to do an elaborate extraction of Kurama and BREAk Kushina's seal to control him.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Control Kurama. Outside a seal. That's a LOT different than controlling Kurama INSIDE one. Hell Obito had to do an elaborate extraction of Kurama and BREAk Kushina's seal to control him.



Objective is the difference, he wanted the Kyuubi, he had no interest in controlling Kushina as she didn't serve to further her goal. The Mizukage had Isobu, one that has way less chakra in comparison to the Kyuubi and he was able to control both Yagura and the turtle.


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## LightningForce (Nov 30, 2015)

Kishi definitely screwed up with the whole 'Madara controlling Yagura a perfect host' notion. We have Bee who's a perfect host, and he gets out of Itachi's and Sasuke's genjutsu just fine with Gyuki's help. But then we have Yagura, another perfect host so we can safely assume he got along well with Isobu, who was mind-controlled for years.

This plothole is piss poor and I think at the time, Kishi was just trynna hype up real Madara's feats (everything about the person in Kisame's flashback points to it being Madara) before he decided something else.

That being said, we don't know what actually went down with Yagura and it's poor to think that Naruto and Kurama together could be controlled so easily. It's certainly not going to happen in a megazord combat.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 30, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> Kishi definitely screwed up with the whole 'Madara controlling Yagura a perfect host' notion. We have Bee who's a perfect host, and he gets out of Itachi's and Sasuke's genjutsu just fine with Gyuki's help. But then we have Yagura, another perfect host so we can safely assume he got along well with Isobu, who was mind-controlled for years.
> 
> This plothole is piss poor and I think at the time, Kishi was just trynna hype up real Madara's feats (everything about the person in Kisame's flashback points to it being Madara) before he decided something else.
> 
> That being said, we don't know what actually went down with Yagura and it's poor to think that Naruto and Kurama together could be controlled so easily. It's certainly not going to happen in a megazord combat.



Gyuuki has far more chakra than Isobu, Yagura and Isobu together probably couldn't even compare to Son Gokou and Roshi (in terms of chakra quantity). There was a reason why they had to follow a certain order in order to seal them.


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## Bonly (Nov 30, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Gyuuki has far more chakra than Isobu, Yagura and Isobu together probably couldn't even compare to Son Gokou and Roshi (in terms of chakra quantity). There was a reason why they had to follow a certain order in order to seal them.



The only order that had to be followed was that Kurama had to be sealed last in order to prevent the Gedo from breaking, otherwise the order didn't matter like whether Goku was sealed before Isobu or not.


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol ridiculous man. Absolutely ridiculous. It seems like when it comes to them all logic gets thrown out the window. Especially with the Adult Naruto and Sasuke BS.
> .



Lolll base adult Naruto and sasuke wank. FFS that shit is ridiculous 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The fact Naruto could tank an attack from the Juubi means that Perfect Susanoo's slashes are not getting through, ARGUS. The level of power the Juubi has in its first form is so superior to a non-Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo its not even funny.



Naruto had to coat himself completely to tank the juubis beam and even then it cost him 6 of his tails 
A direct hit Would have obliterated him just how drop slam did which is nowhere even close to the explosion at vote 

And Loll Madara doesn't need to have the output to match the V1 juubis beam in order to beat BSM Naruto. 



> *
> Naruto's VERY. FIRST. USAGE of Bijudama was the 'Super' form, equal to the combined might of five Biju. He can form it on his own without Bee, hell he added most of the power to that Bijudama.
> 
> Naruto forms Super Bijudama without Bee.*


Dafuq! 
Your own scans laugh at your whole argument 

Narutos and bees combined TBB >>> narutos flash TBB 
Naruto and bee needed to go all out to form that TBB
None of your BS is changing the fact that bee still contributed 

Narutos flash TBB against the Bijuu is the largest he can form. So please stop 



> You do realize how DEEP that crater was? *It was like an Evening Elephant from Eight-Gated Guy, something so much powerful than any power thrown by the Valley of the End.*



Loll no. Please just stop. I'll just say 2 things and that's all what's needed 
1. EE crater >>> Juubitos drop slam 
2. The explosion formed At VotE which created the entire fkn valley >>> juubitos drop slam 

And Cut the crap about EE being far superior to what was done at VoTE 
EEs one hit is slightly stronger than a BSM regular TBB make that 5 and its around the level of 10 BSM regular TBBs and even that is pushing it 

Vote explosion involved chojo kobetsu and 12 Ps-TBB from full kyuubi to bust Ps 
So No 
VOTE explosion >>>> single hit of EE 




> *
> How are they 'superior'? 100% Kurama there was throwing his power around randomly.* Naruto was focusing far more power than Madara did despite his Kurama being 'less complete'.


Wrong. Madara was controlling it so there was no random throwing 
And you're wrong on the second point too 
Naruto focusing more power than full kyuubi doesn't mean that his attacks are stronger 



> Only if you ignore everything Naruto has done, downplay him and his opponents, and wank Madara and Hashirama to insane amounts like Shinobi no Kami.



Loll this is coming from the clown who thinks minatos BM rasengan is stronger than juubidama? loll 

Madara obviously wins 
Only if you ignore everything Madara/Hashirama has done, downplay them and their opponents and wank Naruto to insane amounts like Husain would you come to the conclusion that Naruto wins 



> Why would Sasuke's pre-Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo be weaker than EMS Madara's? All Perfect Susanoo are the same size. Other than just wanking Madara, why would it be weaker other than your own preference?



Because pre rinnegan sasukes PS is around the same size as half kyuubi which is far smaller than full kyuubi which is far smaller than Madaras PS 

Madaras chakra strength >> EMS sasukes chakra 

Downscaling shows why Madaras PS is far far superior to sasukes 
Hell even their ribcage is vastly different 
Ones ribcage required tsunade and Ays fist to be busted whilst the others ribcage got lol busted by kabutos suiton 

Not all susanoos are the same size? Please cut the crap and please cut the crying about Madara and hashirama wank when you had clearly ran out of all arguments 



> I don't think there is anyone in the manga who can tank a JuubiDama.


Well if you're not a god tier than you can't tank it 
But clowns have tried arguing that BSM Naruto can because lol senjutsu and lol laser beam tank 


> I also don't see why Naruto would need to be dishing out a TBB of that magnitude to win.


His strongest is nowhere even close to that magnitude 
He would need a shit ton of his strongest TBB to bust PS and he's never getting their off without Madara attacking 



Even though Naruto needed to go all out to form that TBB and needed bee to go all out as well 

And even though narutos BSM avatar got shut wrecked by juubitos drop slam which has a piss small crater to what was created at VOTE

How is a senjutsu boost to half kyuubi bringing Naruto even close to the level of Madaras PS and Full Kyuubi both of which are much superior to regular kurama avatar individually?



> Yet a RSM TBB only fizzled up Sasuke's superior PS a little.


When you downscale you will deduce that a BM TBB + Ps Chidori from EMS sasuke (equivalent to 2 TBB from BM Naruto) will peel off the entire side of Ps face and left arm/body 



> One must learn to distinguish when the author does something to showcase someone's power or to just add a dramatic effect to the situation.
> 
> And why does this even matter to begin with? The avatars came right back up regardless.


When Naruto loses his avatar. The next slash one shots


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 30, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Objective is the difference, he wanted the Kyuubi, he had no interest in controlling Kushina as she didn't serve to further her goal. The Mizukage had Isobu, one that has way less chakra in comparison to the Kyuubi and he was able to control both Yagura and the turtle.


So you don't think the seals protect the Biju inside from outside influence? If that's the case, why wasn't Madara able to summon Kurama from Naruto as we saw in the War Arc?


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So you don't think the seals protect the Biju inside from outside influence? If that's the case, why wasn't Madara able to summon Kurama from Naruto as we saw in the War Arc?



The seal does protect it from the summoning, but you're overlooking the biggest hindrance to genjutsu (extensive chakra-pools), it makes more sense that someone like Yagura w/Isobu gets mind-raped inside and out but someone like Bee breaks out of it. The difference is that Gyuuki + Killer Bee alone probably have 4-5x the chakra that Isobu/Yagura have.

The other thing is that it was also goal-oriented too, Obito has legitimate feats of putting people in genjutsu for extensive periods. He wouldn't have a problem with a 3-Tailed and Yagura either. It may also have to do with his Hashirama enhanced body, he could essentially use kamui relentlessly without any side effects either.


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## Bonly (Dec 1, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> The seal does protect it from the summoning, but you're overlooking the biggest hindrance to genjutsu (extensive chakra-pools), it makes more sense that someone like Yagura w/Isobu gets mind-raped inside and out but someone like Bee breaks out of it. The difference is that Gyuuki + Killer Bee alone probably have 4-5x the chakra that Isobu/Yagura have.



That's not how breaking genjutsu works otherwise Naruto would break every genjutsu he's put under which we saw wasn't the case. One has to stop their chakra flow then overpower the invading chakra in order to break the genjutsu, one still has to put in the effort to break the genjutsu, it's not an automatic thing. As we saw with Obito he used a genjutsu on Kurama himself in order to control him. Now if Obito did the same to B and Gyuuki nothing suggest that they would be able to break out of it due to the amount of chakra because again they have to make an actual effort and if Obito uses a genjutsu to control them so that they end up losing their own "will" so to speak due to the genjutsu then they would be stuck just like Yagura and Isobu


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## LightningForce (Dec 1, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Gyuuki has far more chakra than Isobu, Yagura and Isobu together probably couldn't even compare to Son Gokou and Roshi (in terms of chakra quantity). There was a reason why they had to follow a certain order in order to seal them.



??? And how is the amount of chakra relevant to genjutsu resistance? They were both perfect hosts. That means they were both compatible and cooperated with their respective tailed beasts. By logic, Isobu should've both been able to break out of genjutsu casted upon the host, but he didn't.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> ??? And how is the amount of chakra relevant to genjutsu resistance? They were both perfect hosts. That means they were both compatible and cooperated with their respective tailed beasts. By logic, Isobu should've both been able to break out of genjutsu casted upon the host, but he didn't.



Larger chakra pools, much more easily broken, hence why someone like Gyuuki/Hachibi were able to do it effortlessly and whereas someone like Yagura/Isobu were bitched.


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## LightningForce (Dec 2, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Larger chakra pools, much more easily broken, hence why someone like Gyuuki/Hachibi were able to do it effortlessly and whereas someone like Yagura/Isobu were bitched.



That's some faulty logic. Aside from the fact that Bee/Gyuki did not break out of genjutsu through larger chakra pools, how does larger chakra pools correlate to genjutsu being broken much more easily?


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 2, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> That's some faulty logic. Aside from the fact that Bee/Gyuki did not break out of genjutsu through larger chakra pools, how does larger chakra pools correlate to genjutsu being broken much more easily?



Reread Jiraiya's explanation about genjutsu in the itahci vs. naruto chapter. I'm not going to spoon feed a manga that's been over to you.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 2, 2015)

> 500m. Next.



Those shockwaves can easily tvavel such a distance.



> Redundant. PS attacks are still linear as hell. They have range, bad AoE. Look at Sasuke vs The Meteors.



And? Shockwaves are enough to counter anything in BSM Naruto's arsenal.



> Clones. Are. EXACT. Replicas. Of. The. Original. Caster.
> 
> Clones can do WHATEVER the caster can do. Don't get smart with me.



I want to see a proof of that. Shadow Bunshins split user's chakra.



> Even though I didn't say he could anywhere in my post - let me tell you why he can anyway.
> 
> Getting a chakra increase does not enhances your brain cells or some shit. If Naruto could place Wind Shape manipulation unto a BijuuDama in Rikudo Sage Mode - He can do so in BijuuMode and KCM. Simply because such feats has to do with his own inherent intelligence in how to combine both techniques - the 'mode' he is in plays no role in whether or not he can pull it off.



He's never done such a thing prior to Rikudou's boost and nothing in the manga supports he can do that. Combining Wind Release and Bijuu Dama requires *only* intelligence?

Anyway, Bijuu Rasenshuriken gets countered by PS slash.



> Senjutsu users laugh at things superior in size to them.



And? I wanna see a proof that he can physically restrain PS. PS can make mountain-cutting shockwaves by simply swinging it's blade. 



> 500m? Believe it.



It wont do anything against multiple shockwaves. It has no feats on that magnitude.



> Clones can do whatever the original can do. Evenly divided chakra. Next.



He could do that only after he got Rikudou's chakra. Before that, he couldnt do that. In order to create a shadow clone, you have to devide your chakra, as you've already mentioned.



> Konoha Invasion - Minato - Done.



PS's blades, no? 

Overall, every BSM Naruto's offencive gets countered by shockwaves. His Bijuu Damas wont connect with PS.


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## LightningForce (Dec 2, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Reread Jiraiya's explanation about genjutsu in the itahci vs. naruto chapter. I'm not going to spoon feed a manga that's been over to you.



I forgot about that explanation, so you're right in that sense. However, that doesn't change the fact that Gyuki has never been placed in the genjutsu, and it's always been Gyuki trying to snap KB out of it. The gap of chakra reserves between the host and the tailed beast is enormous from what we've seen.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Even if he's already swung out at her
> 
> Kurama refers to his own chakra flowing out while Naruto used Sage Mode which means Kurama's Chakra combined with Naruto's own Senjutsu.
> 
> ...



 I explained why Bijuu Sage Mode yields a minimal boost for BM Naruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2015)

Naruto's own Chakra is completely separate from Kurama's, so he can simply draw in Natural Energy proportionate to his own Chakra and use it along with Kurama's own Chakra simultaneously similar to what he does with Rikudou Senjutsu. 

 Even then, I'm not sure how he'd turn into stone because at the very most, he would have less Natural Energy compared to his overall Chakra Pool (Naruto's Base Chakra + Kurama Chakra) which creates the inability to use Sage Mode. Obviously not the case here, but you get the point. One only suffers from deformations when one draws in too much Natural Energy compared to their own Chakra.

 But basically, you didn't refute my argument at all.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Reread Jiraiya's explanation about genjutsu in the itahci vs. naruto chapter. I'm not going to spoon feed a manga that's been over to you.



 I'm not necessarily sure that's what Jiraiya stated.

 He simply stated that one has to have the ability to use more Chakra to disrupt it's flow. That doesn't equate to requring higher levels of chakra though that would help seeing as how Stamina freaks naturally releases high levels of chakra with Naruto being the best example of that.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 2, 2015)

But I've learnt that you've got to treat some people exactly how they treat you. For THEIR sake more than yours. Hopefully, one day I find an even better way of approaching situations such as these. But that's been the case with you. I've been responding to you and everyone else who wants to throw to come around with a disrespectful/bullying vibe the same way they come at me. But I'm bored of it. It's not me and...quite frankly I don't wanna be on this level anymore. It was fun - but not satisfying. I gained nothing out of it.

All I'll tell you is, treat people how you want to be treated. And from just visiting your profile - you've gained alot of enemies. Says alot.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.




NarutoX28 said:


> Naruto's own Chakra is completely separate from Kurama's, so he can simply draw in Natural Energy proportionate to his own Chakra and use it along with Kurama's own Chakra simultaneously similar to what he does with Rikudou Senjutsu.
> 
> Even then, I'm not sure how he'd turn into stone because at the very most, he would have less Natural Energy compared to his overall Chakra Pool (Naruto's Base Chakra + Kurama Chakra) which creates the inability to use Sage Mode. Obviously not the case here, but you get the point. One only suffers from deformations when one draws in too much Natural Energy compared to their own Chakra.
> 
> But basically, you didn't refute my argument at all.



If he wasn't already in BM when the natural energy was drawn in, this could be the case.
If Naruto & Kurama's chakra pools didn't merge once they activate BM, this could be the case.
If Senjutsu didn't require there to be a perfect balance of the chakras, this could be the case.

Alright then. As I said, this match would then basically be just BM Naruto. The SM Buff would be insignificant and we'd have nothing further to debate on.

I have just saved everyone in this thread time going forward.

They are two parties:
*First party:* Basically entertains your theory and thus they basically see normal BM vs PS Kurama. Which makes Madara the obvious winner.

*Second party*: Comes from the perspective I have and believes that the Senjutsu was merged with Kurama & Naruto's combined chakra pools, which would then maximize everything BM has showcased 3x over at the very LEAST.

Neither party will be capable of changing each other's view on this. Since they are both very simple views that requires very simple explanations. It's a case of whether you believe what one party says or not. Done.

============================
Before I exit the thread for good. I've admitted that if your theory is correct then Madara is the victor.
How about you kindly humour my theory now out of fairness?
IF Naruto gathered Senjutsu for his & Kurama's combined chakra pool instead of,'Just his'...how much do you feel it would increase his BM and total performance in this battle?


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why isn't BM a multiplier too, like Sage Mode? For argument's sake, assume Sage Mode is x5 and BM is x10.
> 
> If Naruto was a 5, Sage Naruto would be 25, while BM Naruto would be 50. If Sage Naruto got the x10 or BM Naruto got the 5x, it'd still be the same power level: 250.
> 
> ...



This is how I saw it truthfully, Naruto is a huge stamina freak on his own that should count for something as well.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 2, 2015)

That was well put together by Rocky. Nice. Thanks for quoting.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 2, 2015)

Let me list everything note-worthy he did.

- Attacked Obito with an Odama Rasengan along with Minato.
- We get a panel of him & Sasuke firing an arrow and Naruto, a rapid fire TBB respectively.
- Panel of their avatars swinging at Obito then getting caught in the next page.

That's it.
Much feats. Such wowz.
- rolls eyes -


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2015)

LightningForce said:


> Truthfully, I didn't really go back to the scene to cross-check my facts. I took Sadzuki's word for what Jiraiya said.
> 
> I went back. And that is nothing like what Jiraiya said at all.
> 
> ...



 I agree with this.

 Stamina freaks would naturally have an easier time due to most of them used to releasing large amounts of chakra though I agree, proper chakra control is key.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2015)

Jak N Blak said:


> If he wasn't already in BM when the natural energy was drawn in, this could be the case.



 Again, that doesn't refute what I provided before. Stop half-assing these responses.

 Kurama claimed that he could replicate what happened before when Naruto used his own Sage Mode and allowed Kurama's own chakra to flow out like he did against Nagato. That suggests that what Kurama did was similar here. Naruto used his own Hermit Power (as stated by Kurama) and combined it with Kurama's own Chakra to utilize a Bijuu Mode that only had Naruto's Chakra that was augmented by Senjutsu.

 into ketchup

 And this refutes your entire argument here. Kurama's Chakra was dispersed and Naruto still remained in Sage Mode. Then, he activates Bijuu Mode using Kurama's own Chakra which isn't augmented by Natural Energy and still utilizes the exact same Bijuu Sage Mode he used before. Simply put, Naruto used his own Hermit Power, and combined it with Kurama's own Chakra.

 What you're implying is that Naruto can't mold Natural Energy with his own Chakras while using Bijuu Mode which is false simply because Kurama can willingly give Naruto his own Chakra because they established a powerful link between each other, so Naruto can simply focus on drawing Natural Energy and molding it with his own Chakra while Kurama draws out his own Chakra to maintain Naruto's Bijuu Mode.



> If Naruto & Kurama's chakra pools didn't merge once they activate BM, this could be the case.
> If Senjutsu didn't require there to be a perfect balance of the chakras, this could be the case.





NarutoX28 said:


> into ketchup
> 
> I think this diagram explains it rather well.
> 
> It displays each of the Shinobi's/ Naruto's Chakra and Kurama's Chakra as separate components because if their chakras fused, it would literally form an entirely different chakra and more potent chakra as shown when Indra and Ashura's Chakra fused to enable Madara to use the Rinnegan or when Sasuke received a more potent chakra from awakening the EMS due to Itachi and Sasuke's Chakra mixing because we know dojutsu is a reflection of the Quality of one's chakra.



 This is the post I made which explains why both are simply drawn out simultaneously. Kurama's Chakra is represented as a separate component of Naruto's, but is never shown to augment Naruto's own Chakra. That's even further emphasized by Kurama describing it as a similar method Minato used to transmit his chakra to Naruto even though we know it didn't fuse with Naruto, it was merely just chakra entirely separate from what Naruto uses.



> Alright then. As I said, this match would then basically be just BM Naruto. The SM Buff would be insignificant and we'd have nothing further to debate on.



 That's literally implied. Not only does Sasuke make no mention of his Chakra increase, but even Naruto only used Bijuu Mode instead of Bijuu Sage Mode against Madara despite Naruto stating that gathering Natural Energy was even faster than before. But hey, I guess Naruto is retarded then .... 



> *Second party*: Comes from the perspective I have and believes that the Senjutsu was merged with Kurama & Naruto's combined chakra pools, which would then maximize everything BM has showcased 3x over at the very LEAST.



 If you're going to make such a bold claim, you better provide actual evidence. 

 BSM resulting in a 3x boost isn't anywhere near implied.



> How about you kindly humour my theory now out of fairness?
> IF Naruto gathered Senjutsu for his & Kurama's combined chakra pool instead of,'Just his'...how much do you feel it would increase his BM and total performance in this battle?



 It would obviously result in a massive increase in Naruto's own Bijuu Mode, but Kurama hasn't shown the ability to utilize Senjutsu until after Naruto's Rikudou Power Up.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 3, 2015)

Wasn't expecting you to invest that much into your response.

Unfortunately, I don't have the mental stamina to continue as I've hinting for a while now.

Your last response was all I cared to see.

I comfortably take my leave from this thread / dome now.

(until the next massive naruto battle. muhaha)


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2015)

Well, you certainly trolled me hard.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 3, 2015)

Genuinely wasn't in my intentions to do so, sorry bro. lol

I've actually slept on your theory. That scan of Naruto being knocked out of BSM and reverting down to just SM gives it alot of merit. 

I was like,"Why would Kishi do this?" It seemed so retarded. But he did it for story purposes. He wanted to save that next massive leap in Naruto's power for RSM - not BSM.

Retarded, but that's what Kishi apparently wanted.

And yes, I've decided to stick around the Dome some more.


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