# Jiraiya vs Raikage



## Dariustwinblade (Sep 7, 2009)

Location: Where Taka fought the Raikage


Distance: 50m


Restrictionne



Knowledge: Raikage is aware of Jiraiya's reputation and knows he has toad realeated jutsu but dosent know what they are. Jiraiya is aware of the Raikage's reputation and knows he uses rikiton but doesn't know what they are.



Who winz 3times nomine for Hokage Vs The Raikage


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## LucyXD94 (Sep 7, 2009)

Jiraiya takes this easy!! XD the raikage must be pretty strong but he cannot compare to jiraiya he cud squish him w/ gamabunta! LOL


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## The Wolf (Sep 7, 2009)

*Very interesting thread...

I think From what we have seen so far of Raikage, he would not be able to defeat Jiraiya. After all Jiraiya defeated 3 Pains and would have escaped if he chose or even beat Pain if he had more info on him.

Wouldn't surprise me though if Raikage had more moves we have not seen yet, like those shurikens tattooed on his shoulders. He could summon hidden giant shurikens with the tattoos similar to Sasuke's and throw them charged with Raiton. It was shown that one of his subordinates was able to use 2 elements so he could possibly do the same. He could even have a summons, a giant electric eel perhaps, would go well with futon jutsus if he had it; probably could move like a snake on land. All and all, Even with all that he still would not win against Jiraiya. We did not get to see how strong Jiraiya really was but given what Naruto could do he would easily match Raikage or even best him there. Jiraiya would easily beat him on knowing and using jutsu as well. The only competition the Raikage could offer is with his taijutsu, which seems to be his forte; maybe, Jiraiya is pretty nice with taijutsu.

Good fight but, especially if all he has got is what he has shown already, Jiraiya wins; Raikage gets digested in the stomach of a frog.*


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Sep 7, 2009)

Id have to see more of Raikage to make it a clear cut answer but atm Jiraiya  would win.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2009)

Raikage wins regardless of the circumstances. He is stronger than Jiraiya.

Jiraiya's taijutsu is useless, as well as most of his jutsu arsenal. Raikage can dodge em anyways with his lightning reflexes. He is faster and stronger than Jiraiya and more durable. I don't think Jiraiya can tank many of 300 km/h raiton punches, he'd go down in a couple of em.

Frog song seems to be Jiraiya's only chance here, so out of 10 matches, Jiraiya could maybe win 1 of them if he successfully managed to execute it.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2009)

Until Raikage shows some type of large summon or a way to take out enormous summons than he can't win unless he successfully blitzes Jiraiya which I doubt. I agree though that the majority of what we've seen of Jiraiya wouldn't work on Raikage and that Raikage is faster and more durable than even Hermit Mode. Jiraiya's style seemed entirely dependent that he was faster and more reflexive than his opponent. Against Raikage that isn't the case and the battle would consist more of Jiraiya running since the toads on his shoulders need that mobility as protection. But like I said, Gamba ends it unless Raikage shows some big Ninjutsu or a summon of his own.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 7, 2009)

How is raikage faster and stronger than HM Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2009)

He was compared to the Yellow Flash and he still has training weights on... you don't think HM Jiraiya was as fast as Minato do you? Besides, Jiraiya's feats are limited in that aspect. The Pein bodies he fought were fairly limited in their ability to move and avoid when compared to opponents like Sasuke who are incredibly fast *with* a fully developed Sharingan. He's also more durable as tanked a chakra blast and Hermit Mode Jiraiya was considerably more delicate and dependent on speed. I never said "stronger," I think Senjutsu probably gives Jiraiya a very slight edge, but this is a limited factor as Raikage is certainly strong *enough.*

Your signature is AWESOME by the way.


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## αce (Sep 7, 2009)

Not enough feats from Raikage.

He's only shown speed and insane strength.

Until then, Jiraiya wins with ease.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 7, 2009)

We've only seen him use the Raiton Shroud and his durability/strength to couple with it. HM Jiraiya is just as powerful if not more so, the only thing that has been indicated as a problem would be Raikage's speed for Jiriaya, other than that he could just summon Bun/Ken/Hiro and divert Raikage while giving him the final blow (in HM of course).

I don't think there are enough feats from Raikage to actually establish his dominance. Furthermore, we haven't really seen the limitations of Raikage's abilities either, that Raiton shroud is probably exceptionally chakra-intensive, but much like his brother I would expect him to have a high-chakra capacity.

However, the longer the battle the worse it is for Raikage.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2009)

Well, it's obvious Raikage is a chakra monster like his brother, Killerbee.



> Karin: !! // (Something's coming... something huge!)


I'm sure she wasn't reffering to his size, because I don't think she can tell how big people are because she can sense their chakra.

Plus, he's able to flow his lightning chakra throught his body for a long time.


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## Gspot (Sep 7, 2009)

Raikage has barely done anything yet, so he won't be able to touch Jiraiya in this match. 

No matter how legit Raikage's close-range abilities are (and they are fucking legit), he hasn't shown anything else yet. Jiraiya's not the type to engage in close-combat in the first place (unless he's in HM); Jiraiya would win this limited battle through simple use of tactical ninjutsu.


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## clador (Sep 7, 2009)

jiraiya doesn't need hermit mod to beat him

don't forget that base  jiraiya was confident enought to protect naruto from akatsuki who always travel by 2

he beat without probleme even in his base form


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 7, 2009)

clador said:


> jiraiya doesn't need hermit mod to beat him


Umm,I think he does.



clador said:


> don't forget that base  jiraiya was confident enought to protect naruto from akatsuki who always travel by 2


Confidence doesn't mean much.Asuma was confident he could kill Itachi and Kisame too.We know how that went...
Sasuke was confident he could pwn KillerBee,and we definitely know how that went.


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## clador (Sep 7, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Umm,I think he does.
> 
> 
> Confidence doesn't mean much.Asuma was confident he could kill Itachi and Kisame too.We know how that went...
> Sasuke was confident he could pwn KillerBee,and we definitely know how that went.



i'm not talking about a little boy over confident 

i'm  talking about jiraiya , the most experimented ninja who traveled every
where and know his skill and also know akatsuki

whithout itachi strongest jutsu someone like kisame would have  been dead in 5second in this hotel
even kakashi who ave seen itachi abilities though that akatsjuki never planning to take on naruto because jiraiya was with him
so for kakashi someone clevel , he still think that jiraiya can take on 2 akatsuji while protecting naruto 

so yeah jiraiya was confident to protect naruto from 2 akatsuki guy witch is even more difficult than to fight without protect naruto

also jiraiya told to kakashi that he will take naruto on his side , because kakashi level is not enough to protect from 2 akatsuki 

jiraiya know how strong he is 
and in my opinion  even in his base form he could have fight pretty well  itachi and kisame if it's not for protecting  naruto or sasuke 
especially since itachi used his best jutsu to brake his jutsu


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## Shanoa (Sep 7, 2009)

Jiraiya will just outsmart him 
so he win


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## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2009)

Clador, do you think Jiraiya > Tsukiyomi just because?


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 7, 2009)

Jiraiya takes this in base mode with high difficulty, hermit mode with medium-low diffuculty. This is assuming raikage has more to show...


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## Gentle Fist (Sep 7, 2009)

From what we have seen so far, Id have to go with Jiraiya

I just cant see the J-man losing to someone who uses only brute force and doesnt make use of high level ninjutsu.  That could all change a chapter from now, but it seems to me that the raikage would be outmatched by Jiraiya's versatility


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## Soul (Sep 7, 2009)

LucyXD94 said:


> Jiraiya takes this easy!! XD the raikage must be pretty strong but he cannot compare to jiraiya he cud squish him w/ gamabunta! LOL



Jiraiya isn't as strong or fast than the Raikage in his Base, neither in Sennin Moodo.
I would argue that the Raikage would defeat a big-sized summon with less than 4 hits.



Gentle Fist said:


> From what we have seen so far, Id have to go with Jiraiya
> 
> I just cant see the J-man losing to someone who uses only brute force and doesnt make use of high level ninjutsu.  That could all change a chapter from now, but it seems to me that the raikage would be outmatched by Jiraiya's versatility



The Raikage has used a "Raiton-shroud" two complete chapters; I would say that it is a very skilled Ninjutsu user, as not everyone has that kind of control over his chakra or on their element.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 8, 2009)

Doton: Yomi Numa, GG Raikage.


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## Soul (Sep 8, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Doton: Yomi Numa, GG Raikage.



I would argue that Yomi Numa will be inneffective, as the Raikage usually fights with a "Raiton-should", which should make that Doton useless {Since the Raikage's elemental affinity has the upper hand (Raiton>Doton)}.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 8, 2009)

You make a valid point, I don't really see how that would work though. I mean, the more you struggle the quicker you get sucked in though. I don't really see how electrifying a swamp would help, the elemental advantage is duly noted, though. I guess using his strength/speed he could try to break out of the swamp. But that would leave him open for a counter-attack from HM Jiraiya...


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## Soul (Sep 8, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> You make a valid point, I don't really see how that would work though. I mean, the more you struggle the quicker you get sucked in though.



Why would he struggle?
He could just balance his chakra, as most of shinobis can do with chakra control {Example: Walking in water} and step in the Swamp while his Raiton Element protects him from being fucked.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 8, 2009)

I am working under the assumption that they see each other and Jiraiya does what base Jiraiya does best, Doton: Yomi Numa and Raikage (doesn't have the shroud up).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2009)

Gspot said:


> Raikage has barely done anything yet, so he won't be able to touch Jiraiya in this match.
> 
> No matter how legit Raikage's close-range abilities are (and they are fucking legit), he hasn't shown anything else yet. Jiraiya's not the type to engage in close-combat in the first place (unless he's in HM); Jiraiya would win this limited battle through simple use of tactical ninjutsu.



IF you mean he proved to have faster reaction speed than minato and blitzing taka around and destroyed cs2 juugo with 2 blows by "raikage has barely done anything yet", then yeah I agree.

Although he'd rape base Jiraiya, thats where I disagree. 

Hm Jiraiya would put up a good fight though, but inevitably lose.



SoLiOZuZ said:


> I am working under the assumption that they see each other and Jiraiya does what base Jiraiya does best, Doton: Yomi Numa and Raikage (doesn't have the shroud up).



Raikage had the raiton shroud from the beginning. 

Also he can instantly activate it, so yomi numa is always ineffective. Raiton > Doton.


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## Gspot (Sep 8, 2009)

Jiraiya schools Raikage, it's really much too early to have this matchup because Raikage hasn't shown enough yet. He hasn't shown range, ninjutsu, or general battle savvy yet. All he's done is shown impressive physical ability - close-range strength, speed, general badassery. That's nowhere near good enough to compete with Jiraiya's complete game.

*Q: Is Raikage capable of blitzkilling someone as high-level as Jiraiya?*

A; No. He's not a stealth fighter, and a straight-up attack would just be evaded/countered by ninjutsu. Jiraiya's not the type that would engage in close combat in the first place, anyway. Not like Juugotard or Sasutard. Jiraiya would throw up a defensive hair ninjutsu, or guard with a KB, or summon a toad...

Based on what we've seen so far, Jiraiya would win through simple use of tactical ninjutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 8, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage had the raiton shroud from the beginning.
> 
> Also he can instantly activate it, so yomi numa is always ineffective. Raiton > Doton.


Raikage would probably still lose because that's just the fist part of Jiraiya's arsenal. I don't see Raikage countering a Sage Mode Rasengan, he can attempt to evade it, but Jiraiya can just throw another one at him. I think this is really a battle of the chakra monsters, and whoever gets exhausted first, would probably lose.

Jiraiya's shown more ninjutsu and I don't think Raikage is physically stronger than HM Jiraiya. They could be even, if not Jiraiya probably has a lead. The Raiton Shroud has only hinted at Raikage's speed being increased, if we find out his strength is increased as well, this maybe a different story.

Jiraiya wins until Raikage shows more feats. I simply just can't hand a match over when Jiraiya's had so many more feats than Raikage. Raikage is impressive and if he shows more, then I am sure he would win.


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## Gspot (Sep 8, 2009)

> IF you mean he proved to have faster reaction speed than minato and blitzing taka around and destroyed cs2 juugo with 2 blows by "raikage has barely done anything yet", then yeah I agree.



On Minato - I heard that was a mistranslation. And nobody from Taka is near dead yet.

On destroying CS2 Juugo with two blows - Jiraiya could do it in one. And Jiraiya isn't going to be facing off physically against Raikage and taking those blows anyway. He's not crazy like Juugo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Raikage would probably still lose because that's just the fist part of Jiraiya's arsenal. I don't see Raikage countering a Sage Mode Rasengan, he can attempt to evade it, but Jiraiya can just throw another one at him. I think this is really a battle of the chakra monsters, and whoever gets exhausted first, would probably lose.
> 
> Jiraiya's shown more ninjutsu and I don't think Raikage is physically stronger than HM Jiraiya. They could be even, if not Jiraiya probably has a lead. The Raiton Shroud has only hinted at Raikage's speed being increased, if we find out his strength is increased as well, this maybe a different story.
> 
> Jiraiya wins until Raikage shows more feats. I simply just can't hand a match over when Jiraiya's had so many more feats than Raikage. Raikage is impressive and if he shows more, then I am sure he would win.



One problem, Jiraiya does not open with Yomi numa, it doesn't come initially. Raikage is too fast and he closes big distances on foot, and has a natural counter that comes off effortlessly, so yomi numa is a non factor in this fight.

Most people have shown more ninjutsu than Raikage, that doesn't mean much, he is stronger than most of them though, maybe all of them. Jutsu count and variety isn't always important, especially against such Raw power as the Raikage's.

Also, this chapters spoilers(I don't think I can discuss them here), eventhough a bit vague, will change your opinioin on raikage, I am sure. I am inclined to say that Raikage is stronger than Itachi.



Gspot said:


> On Minato - I heard that was a mistranslation. And nobody from Taka is near dead yet.
> 
> On destroying CS2 Juugo with two blows - Jiraiya could do it in one. And Jiraiya isn't going to be facing off physically against Raikage and taking those blows anyway. He's not crazy like Juugo.



Its not a mistrans. It is the accurate one.

I can post the translation if you like, though it'll take some time to find it.

Jiraiya hasn't shown the strength to even hurt Juugo's cs2 form seriously, I doubt he could take Juugo with one blow(unless it is the ultimate rasengan)


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 8, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> One problem, Jiraiya does not open with Yomi numa, it doesn't come initially. Raikage is too fast and he closes big distances on foot, and has a natural counter that comes off effortlessly, so yomi numa is a non factor in this fight.


It isn't a non factor.Sasuke is able(albeit with difficulty) to keep up with Raikage,so HM Jiraiya would have no difficulty doing it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Most people have shown more ninjutsu than Raikage, that doesn't mean much, he is stronger than most of them though, maybe all of them. Jutsu count and variety isn't always important, especially against such Raw power as the Raikage's.


Yes it is.
Jiraiya can match or surpass Raikage in strength and somewhat in speed(Raikage probably is faster but not by a large margin).The spoilers have shown that 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Chidori was able to somewhat hurt Raikage despite his "impenetrable" Raiton aura,so a Rasengan or other Sage powered jutsu should be able to do the same.



You also have Shima's fuuton jutsu,which can seriously fuck up Raikage because of the inherent weakness his Raiton aura has to Fuuton.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also, this chapters spoilers(I don't think I can discuss them here), eventhough a bit vague, will change your opinioin on raikage, I am sure. I am inclined to say that Raikage is stronger than Itachi.


He is indeed stronger than Itachi and base Jiraiya,but not HM Jiraiya.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya hasn't shown the strength to even hurt Juugo's cs2 form seriously, I doubt he could take Juugo with one blow(unless it is the ultimate rasengan)


Umm,I'm sure you haven't missed the part where he killed Pain's bull summon in one blow.Doesn't matter if it was Taijutsu or some other jutsu(probably taijutsu though,otherwise the jutsu would have appeared in the databook),if Raikage gets close he will get the same treatment.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 8, 2009)

Jiraiya's style is dependent on being fast enough to evade his opponents and get off Ninjutsu. Raikage is faster, even Jiraiya fans acknowledge this, and likely to fair degree. This means that there's constant pressure on Jiraiya and he's going to be forced to fight close range with limited Ninjutsu. The Raikage can tank broad attacks like chakra canons without much effort and even piercing attacks like Chidori have a limited effect on him. Jiraiya's not winning this without Hermit Mode and this is an opponent who wouldn't let him get in Hermit Mode to begin with. Even if he starts off in Hermit Mode, the Raikage is a decent counter and will put up one hell of a fight. Jiraiya needs distance.

*Vote: Raikage*


*Spoiler*: __ 



If the spoiler I read was true than even starting the battle in Hermit Mode with Ma and Pa at the ready is still going to be very difficult. Raikage evidently has chakra like a Bijuu and implies that Kakashi's piercing technique is the only one capable of piercing his armor. Sasuke is forced to rely on Itachi's most powerful defense to handle a lightning attack that seems akin to Kirin without preparation time. Taken in stride with the beastly movement and strength that Raikage has and his refusal to remove those giant training weights, I would say that even the Shinobi Gods we've seen so far have found a worthy competitor. He tanks an Amatarasu and the chapter ends with him about to "use his left arm.."


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## Gspot (Sep 8, 2009)

> Its not a mistrans. It is the accurate one. I can post the translation if you like, though it'll take some time to find it.



Oh my god... is it really?! If so, Yondaime just got shafted pretty damn hard...



> Jiraiya hasn't shown the strength to even hurt Juugo's cs2 form seriously, I doubt he could take Juugo with one blow(unless it is the ultimate rasengan)



Jiraiya could smoke Juugo, but the main point is that Jiraiya isn't going to be taking those hits from Raikage (that Juugo took) anyway. _Because_ (base) Jiraiya is not a physical freaktank like Juugo/Oro, his fighting style is largely ninjutsu that pressures his opponent while putting him at a comfortable defensive distance (e.g. summon, hair jutsu, toad silhouette, etc).


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## Cyphon (Sep 8, 2009)

Its tough to call based on current info on Raikage. I assume he has a pretty high level of durability but to what extent is hard to determine.

Like a few have pointed out, Jiraiya is not the type to simply engage in close range combat and at this point that is Raikage's specialty.

A lot of people are talking about the Raikage's speed, but the fact of the matter is, Juugo had time to throw up a defense to one of his punches (I don't recall if he had his shroud up at the time though....which I think is what gives him the greater speed). 

Anyway, I think it really comes down to the Raikage's durability/other techniques. I believe Jiraiya can do enough in base mode to keep him at a distance, but am not sure how exactly he would kill him because I don't know how durable he is.

Right now I am leaning towards a 50/50 match due to unknowns.

SM Jiraiya would definitely win though if it got to that point.


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## Soul (Sep 9, 2009)

Gspot said:


> Oh my god... is it really?! If so, Yondaime just got shafted pretty damn hard...



We don't have any scan showing just how fast Yondaime was, or the Databook stats for him.

We can't know if he got shafted or not.
But if he was talking about Minato with Hiraishin, then I don't know what to say...


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## Badalight (Sep 9, 2009)

Raikage needs to show more first (No I havn't read spoilers and don't plan to, I'll coment after it comes out thursday night)

As of now, I'm leaning towards Jiraiya.

In my opinion, he's just far to versatile for a purely taijutsu fighter such as the Raikage.

It's obvious Jiraiya is outclassed in the speed and strength aspect, but he has so much more going for him.

- Swamp of the underworld (Though some of you feel it would be innefective)

- He has his toad stomach, only thing to break out of it so far is amatseru which is hax.

He can always resort to giant summons, though I don't seem them taking very many hits from Raikage they could help. Gamaken has his shield and if summoned right away can keep Jiraiya at a fair distance due to it's jumping capabilities.

Then he can use Gamaken's oil and a katon to do his combo, I'm thinking it'd be pretty effective on Raikage. What does lightning lose to on Kishi's power list anyway? I jsut remember Raikage seemed pretty afraid Sasuke had fire in his arsenal.

Anyway, if it comes down to it, HM would be too much. With Pa's tounge which can cut through stone, ma's poison tounge, and frog song I think Jiraiya would take it pretty easily.

I'd like to see more feets for Raikage before I can judge it though, I'm skeptical as to what can actually hurt him. Could an HM rasengan do the trick? Wild Lion's Mane?

Too early to judge for me.


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## Muah (Sep 9, 2009)

Gentle Fist said:


> From what we have seen so far, Id have to go with Jiraiya
> 
> I just cant see the J-man losing to someone who uses only brute force and doesnt make use of high level ninjutsu.  That could all change a chapter from now, but it seems to me that the raikage would be outmatched by Jiraiya's versatility



You mean like Naruto I hope the manga doesn't go that way either. Though I think frog fu was impressive.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> It isn't a non factor.Sasuke is able(albeit with difficulty) to keep up with Raikage,so HM Jiraiya would have no difficulty doing it.


Sasuke was able to keep up until now because Raikage wasn't focusing on him. Besides, Sasuke has the sharingan(and just recieved a chakra upgrade), we haven't seen Jiraiya against a fast opponent, we don't know how good is his reaction speed, although I don't think it is close to neither Sasuke's nor Raikage's.
Also what does this have anything to do with yomi numa ? 



> Yes it is.
> Jiraiya can match or surpass Raikage in strength and somewhat in speed(Raikage probably is faster but not by a large margin).The spoilers have shown that
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



[/QUOTE]

I don't think that is the case. Jiraiya doesn't have similar strength feats. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke's chidori is a piercing attack, and it only caused a minor wound, as a result Raikage amped up his raiton shroud. 
Yes, fuuton could potentially effect him, if it is high level enough and if raikage gets struck.







> He is indeed stronger than Itachi and base Jiraiya,but not HM Jiraiya.









> Umm,I'm sure you haven't missed the part where he killed Pain's bull summon in one blow.Doesn't matter if it was Taijutsu or some other jutsu(probably taijutsu though,otherwise the jutsu would have appeared in the databook),if Raikage gets close he will get the same treatment.



Do you know how he killed the bull summon ? 
Btw, any evidence that he killed him ? Pain de summoned it, after it got pushed back. Plus, Sakura also one shotted a summon, I doubt she could do the same to Juugo, which Raikage did.

Raikage can tank(not block) Jiraiya hits, and shrugg them off. Jiraiya's only chance here is to keep his distance and try to use frog song genjutsu, seriously I see no other win scenario for Jiraiya in this match up.




Gspot said:


> Oh my god... is it really?! If so, Yondaime just got shafted pretty damn hard...


Yeah, poor dude.




> Jiraiya could smoke Juugo, but the main point is that Jiraiya isn't going to be taking those hits from Raikage (that Juugo took) anyway. _Because_ (base) Jiraiya is not a physical freaktank like Juugo/Oro, his fighting style is largely ninjutsu that pressures his opponent while putting him at a comfortable defensive distance (e.g. summon, hair jutsu, toad silhouette, etc).



Base Jiraiya isn't remotely close to the necessary speed to be able to deal with raikage to begin with, he cannot do any of the things you mention.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 9, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke was able to keep up until now because Raikage wasn't focusing on him. Besides, Sasuke has the sharingan(and just recieved a chakra upgrade), we haven't seen Jiraiya against a fast opponent, we don't know how good is his reaction speed, although I don't think it is close to neither Sasuke's nor Raikage's.


Sasuke also 
*Spoiler*: __ 



evaded Sasuke's elbow and hit him with chidori.So much for Raikage's untouchable speed.HM Jiraiya should be faster than Sasuke,or at least as fast as him...





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also what does this have anything to do with yomi numa ?


You said it would be a non-factor because Raikage is too fast



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think that is the case. Jiraiya doesn't have similar strength feats.


Similar to what?Punching a whole through Juugo?So what?Jiraiya punched a huge bull 100ft back.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well a Chou Odama Rasengan should do it then 




Grimmjowsensei said:


>


Amazing argument....I really have no counter here 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you know how he killed the bull summon ?


If it was a jutsu it would have been highlighted.All of the other jutsu in the battle were....so we can assume it either was taijutsu or it just got blasted back by the awesomeness of the moment 
My point was,doesn't matter if it was taijutsu or ninjutsu,the end result was the same.If Raikage gets hit with whatever that was,he would take some damage...


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Btw, any evidence that he killed him ? Pain de summoned it, after it got pushed back.


Grasping at straws,are we?IF he de-summoned him it was either because it was dead or because it was injured or it couldn't fight.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Plus, Sakura also one shotted a summon, I doubt she could do the same to Juugo, which Raikage did.


Sakura is not Ino,you know....she has the same hit power as Tsunade.And a centipede is not a bull or a rhino.The fact that you doubt she could do the same to Juugo doesn't mean much,the feats are there....
Meanwhile Raikage is breaking tables and walls 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage can tank(not block) Jiraiya hits, and shrugg them off.


Because you say so?Please don't compare Jiraiya's(and Ni Dai Sennin's) Senjutsu powered attacks with fodder Juugo's half assed laz0rz...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Base Jiraiya isn't remotely close to the necessary speed to be able to deal with raikage to begin with, he cannot do any of the things you mention.


Let me ask you something...if Raikage is so fast compared to the others,why is that everybody involved in the battle is able to _visualy_ keep up with him?The don't have the sharingan...


----------



## Gspot (Sep 9, 2009)

> Base Jiraiya isn't remotely close to the necessary speed to be able to deal with raikage to begin with, he cannot do any of the things you mention.



I mean, he can... I don't know what else to say. A battle isn't just a race, there is also timing, surroundings, deception, and jutsu. All aspects in which Jiraiya rapes what we've seen so far from Raikage.

You think that Raikage would just blitzkill The Jiraiya? That's a pretty goofy claim. That's like me saying <lol Jiraiya KB+Rasengan-from-behind elemental advantage GG>.


----------



## hmph (Sep 9, 2009)

Hmm... Toad Stomache Bind seems perfect for dealing with the Raikage. Its not the type that can be dodged or tanked. His only way out would be the pound the walls with his fist, which would just get him stuck and digested faster. They're even indoors for it. In this situation, Raikage's kinda setup for a perfect shot of that technique.

Other than that, he could probably make Jiraiya need HM. Most of his hair techniques or general summons wouldn't help against Raikage, and I'll give the raiton aura the benefit of the doubt against Yomi Numa. But... HM is beyond Raikage, what with Chou Oodama Rasengan, Deep Friar, and Frog Song.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Sasuke also
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



There is no evidence that Hm Jiraiya is faster than current Sasuke. Sasuke has the sharingan, which Jiraiya lacks, and it is the only reason why Sasuke was able to keep up until now. And after amping his raiton shroud, Sasuke's eye cannot keep up with him, he simply outran Amaterasu... 






> You said it would be a non-factor because Raikage is too fast


I said it is mainly a non factor because of the lightning shround, aka the elemental advantage.



> Similar to what?Punching a whole through Juugo?So what?Jiraiya punched a huge bull 100ft back.


\
once you prove that Jiraiya punched the bull or the bull had equavalent of cs2 durability, we can discuss this.



> Well a Chou Odama Rasengan should do it then


Could do it, maybe. Since we haven't seen its effect, neither you nor me can be sure, although I don't see how Jiraiya can possibly hit raikage with something so obvious. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



after amping up his raiton shroud, he seemed to have tanked Amaterasu, pretty casually. If I didn't misunderstand that part, Jiraiya can't even put a scratch on him.







> Amazing argument....I really have no counter here


Just as planned 




> If it was a jutsu it would have been highlighted.All of the other jutsu in the battle were....so we can assume it either was taijutsu or it just got blasted back by the awesomeness of the moment
> My point was,doesn't matter if it was taijutsu or ninjutsu,the end result was the same.If Raikage gets hit with whatever that was,he would take some damage...



No, a fodder bull summon, which was dispatched with some unknown move, by no means, is equal to Raikage in durability.



> Grasping at straws,are we?IF he de-summoned him it was either because it was dead or because it was injured or it couldn't fight.


So there is no proof that one hit killed him.



> Sakura is not Ino,you know....she has the same hit power as Tsunade.And a centipede is not a bull or a rhino.The fact that you doubt she could do the same to Juugo doesn't mean much,the feats are there....
> Meanwhile Raikage is breaking tables and walls


She doesn't have the same hit power with Tsunade, her strength is comparab le to juugo, from what we've seen. Did you see the size of crates juugo created while he was punching around ?



> Because you say so?Please don't compare Jiraiya's(and Ni Dai Sennin's) Senjutsu powered attacks with fodder Juugo's half assed laz0rz...


We don't know, we've seen Jiraiya's attacks on Pains bodies with no real durability, and they didn't cause any serious damage. 




> Let me ask you something...if Raikage is so fast compared to the others,why is that everybody involved in the battle is able to _visualy_ keep up with him?The don't have the sharingan...



Who said they can keep up with him ? 

When he targeted Juugo, juugo could only mutter the words "he is fast" and the next thing, he was shoved up into a wall with raikage's punch going through him.




Gspot said:


> I mean, he can... I don't know what else to say. A battle isn't just a race, there is also timing, surroundings, deception, and jutsu. All aspects in which Jiraiya rapes what we've seen so far from Raikage.
> 
> You think that Raikage would just blitzkill The Jiraiya? That's a pretty goofy claim. That's like me saying <lol Jiraiya KB+Rasengan-from-behind elemental advantage GG>.



Going by feats, yeah, Jiraiya cannot avoid raikage in base mode, he gets crushed. I know, everything you said matters normally, but when the opponent outclasses you in nearly every aspect, and if your jutsu arsenal is in question whether it can damage the opponent or not even if it connects, then you can't simply say that Jiraiya'll rape Raikage. 

This fight doesn't end in a rape stomp ;

If Jiraiya starts further away from raikage and manages to avoid an initial blitz and then somehow manages to buy enough time to go into HM, which doesn't seem possible at all.

or If he starts in HM.

Anything other than that ends in a pretty fast stomp in favor of Raikage.

Gspot, I know you'll see the light bro, Raikage is the strongest character we've seen up to now. Just read this weeks spoilers and you'll see.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Sep 9, 2009)

i swear, but u shuld give hints as to how great the spoilers are. 
yh i say based on wat i know, raikage kills jiraiya with some ease really. 
blitz and one punch, jman needs tym to go into hm. if he starts in hm then yh, you would have an epic battle. 
i think chou odama rasengan easily by passes the chakra shroud. 
find out why i think so. lol


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 9, 2009)

As  though Jiraiya can't hide and make summons do the work for him. Jump out of Rakage's range. To got to HM if he feel like it.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 9, 2009)

This is my last post on this issue until Raikage vs Sasuke is over.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Umm,yes there is.Naruto.He always had average speed,yet look what he did in Sage Mode.Jiraiya and Sasuke both had a 4.5 in the databook,HM Jiraiya should be a 5 easily.

Its not the only reason.The sharingan helps,yes,but if Sasuke didn't have speed comparable with Raikage the sharingan wouldn't be worth shit.

Yeah,cause Amaterasu is known for catching lightning fast opponents. .You also have to consider how fatigue and the fact that Sasuke just ate a powerbomb plays into this.Not to mention Sasuke's eyes bleeding.And Amaterasu obstructing his field of vision.






Grimmjowsensei said:


> once you prove that Jiraiya punched the bull or the bull had equavalent of cs2 durability, we can discuss this.


Thats a very nice try my friend,but it doesn't work that way.You were the one who said Jiraiya's strength feats pale in comparison with Raikage's.You have to prove CS 2 Juugo is tougher than the bull.
Really now,why are we even debating this.Do you think,for example,a Rasengan or Chidori would hurt the giant bull more than they would hurt CS 2 Juugo?
And I already proved it was Taijutsu,you just chose to ignore it.If it was something else it would have been highlighted in the manga or appeared in the databook.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Could do it, maybe. Since we haven't seen its effect, neither you nor me can be sure, although I don't see how Jiraiya can possibly hit raikage with something so obvious.


How about Raikage charges in with his super speed straight into it?Jiraiya can form that thing in an instant.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> after amping up his raiton shroud, he seemed to have tanked Amaterasu, pretty casually. If I didn't misunderstand that part, Jiraiya can't even put a scratch on him.


Yeah,that part is still unclear....but if he really 
*Spoiler*: __ 



tanked a full power Amaterasu its going to be pretty tricky.







Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, a fodder bull summon, which was dispatched with some unknown move, by no means, is equal to Raikage in durability.


Well let me put it this way do you think does more damage,a Chidori,or the thing that pushed that huge bull back 100 ft?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So there is no proof that one hit killed him.


Sure there is...it disappeared .Even if we assume it didn't kill him,the sheer force needed to knock something that size/weight that far backwards is nothing to play with.Nevermind Juugo's supposed durability,if Raikage's punch was as strong as Jiraiya's he should have been knocked back 1 mile...




Grimmjowsensei said:


> She doesn't have the same hit power with Tsunade, her strength is comparable to juugo, from what we've seen. Did you see the size of crates juugo created while he was punching around ?


Sakura was making craters too 
Do you remember what Sakura did in her fight with Sasori.Didn't she punch through Sasori's Iron Sand?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Who said they can keep up with him ?
> 
> When he targeted Juugo, juugo could only mutter the words "he is fast" and the next thing, he was shoved up into a wall with raikage's punch going through him.


He couldn't react physicaly,but he saw it.

At least we can agree on 1 thing,base Jiraiya would lose....

***
*I really can't help but think the reason why you and other Itachi/Uchiha fans are having Raikage-gasms is damage control.
The things people have been saying for a while now
Spoiler:  



Susano'o isn't invincible,Amaterasu doesn't appear instantly and it can be dodged by fast ninja,high level characters have strong genjutsu defense


 are finally backed up with proof,from a Kage no less(not Pain or Madara,the top 2 guys),which lets face it,have been fodderized in Pt II,so now you want to hype up Raikages as some godly DBZ level being.

Spoiler:  



If what people are predicting comes true,and Sasuke has to be saved by Madara,good luck still trying to claim Itachi is close to Madara's level when Madara will stomp on Raikage like there's no tomorrow


*


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 9, 2009)

Jiraiya would still deal with raikage with moderate difficulty

All raikage has shown is taijutsu and his shroud thus far and people think he would take down jiraiya with it is laughable. 

Gai is a taijutsu expert also...he isn't the strongest 
itachi is a genjutsu expert....as proven in later chapters genjutsu is not so much rape anymore
nagato was an expert in ninjutsu and he's dead

just because your the best at something doesn't mean you can solo anyone. There is so much more in battle then being godly in one area especially when dealing with top tier ninja


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2009)

All i will say is that Jiraiya probably has the Best counter to Raikage in the Form of Frog Song. Whether or not Raikage is stronger then Jiraiya is another story, but from what has been seen so far Jiraiya can win with Frog Song and Jiriaya has some pretty amazing delaying Tactics and Ninjutsu to pull this off.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> This is my last post on this issue until Raikage vs Sasuke is over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The bottom line is, Jiraiya is outclassed in nearly every aspect except for jutsu variety and range. Although Raikage's shroud's nature allows him to tank shit, and his reflexes + body speed(the speed that can outrun Amaterasu) will allow him dodge everything Jiraiya throws @ him anyways. 
These points aren't much debatable. 

Saying Jiraiya has a chance is really pulling at straws here.



> *I really can't help but think the reason why you and other Itachi/Uchiha fans are having Raikage-gasms is damage control.
> The things people have been saying for a while now
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Not at all. We have seen a partially formed incomplete Susano'o, and it still protected just fine, if anything this will be increase Itachi's potential with susano'o. 
Raikage is the fastest character we've seen so far that can move faster than sharingan can see, so it is only natural that he can outrun amaterasu, he is simply faster than Sasuke's gaze. And he has a very unique anti genjutsu mechanism, if anything his shroud is pretty lame, its an all in one package, but I still acknowledge its superiority.
I can say the same thing about you, you are jealous of Raikage because he is much much faster than Jiraiya, has a legitimate genjutsu defense and he has shown a skillset to be able to match MS, unlike the battledome Jiraiya who can only match it backed up by fanfic scenarios on how he has knowledge on every MS jutsu and how he has magical counters for each and every one of them.
Don't hate the raikage just because he is too powerful.

Also yeah, I no longer think that Itachi is on Madara's level, not because of raikage though. Itachi may have a better shot @ dealing with Madara, because Madara completely nullifies taijutsu, raikage isn't his best match up anyways, so I wouldn't be surprised if he deals with Raikage fairly easily due to his intangiblity.






Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraiya would still deal with raikage with moderate difficulty
> 
> All raikage has shown is taijutsu and his shroud thus far and people think he would take down jiraiya with it is laughable.
> 
> ...



Looool, are you comparing him to Gai? 

Raikage is not just a  taijutsu expert. He has all his bases covered. He doesn't need a jutsu to kill Jiraiya in one hit, a full powered raiton punch will break Jiraiya into two even if he is in HM. He can tank most of the shit Jiraiya throws @ him and more importantly he can easily dodge/evade most of them. He is a close range fighter, but it isn't purely taijutsu, his raiton shroud makes him bijuu level.



Turrin said:


> All i will say is that Jiraiya probably has the Best counter to Raikage in the Form of Frog Song. Whether or not Raikage is stronger then Jiraiya is another story, but from what has been seen so far Jiraiya can win with Frog Song and Jiriaya has some pretty amazing delaying Tactics and Ninjutsu to pull this off.




genjutsu doesn't work on him.


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## αce (Sep 9, 2009)

Read the spoilers.

All I have to say is that Jiraiya is fucked.


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## Kenshin37 (Sep 9, 2009)

Jiraiya all the way! His best weapon against the Raikage isn't his jutsu though but his attitude. The Raikage is easily blinded by rage while Jiraiya stays cool headed under fire. The Raikage may be extremely powerful but Jiraiya is the superior shinobi.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 9, 2009)

I know I said I wouldn't post here until the match is over,but just a few minor observations


Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## clador (Sep 9, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Read the spoilers.
> 
> All I have to say is that Jiraiya is fucked.



i read the spoiler and i can tell you that jiraiya is better
no doubt about it ..


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## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Read the spoilers.
> 
> All I have to say is that Jiraiya is fucked.



This, basically. Jiraiya can't get the room he needs.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 9, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> genjutsu doesn't work on him.


I don't know about that, Frog Song is a sound based genjutsu, unless Raikage somehow goes deaf halfway in battle, he's pretty much fucked when Jiraiya starts playing his soundtrack.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 10, 2009)

Illusory said:


> This, basically. Jiraiya can't get the room he needs.



And he can't make a tactical retreat. Like in the Pain fight.


If I put Raikage in front of animal realm. Animal realm would solo raikage. With his army of boss summons and chamelion summon.


He can summon gama butan and jump WAY OUT OF RAIKAGE'S reach and fry him in petrolium fire. And he ain't dodging some thing with that high intensity and AOE.


Raikage has NO DESCENT STRENGTH FLEATS THAT COMES CLOSE TO KICKING A GIGANTIC 100ft summon flying in the opposite direction.


And please don't bring a fodder like jugo here. All he did was make a hole in Jugo's body. Something chidori or Rasengan can easily accomplish.


Sasuke who has a speed of 4.5 who is equal to Jiraiya was able to pierce him with a chidori. Saying that Jiraiya can easily Rasengan , Odama Rasengen or Twin ranengan him in base mode.


HE can lubricate the area with oil basicallt restricting movement.


Heck he can instantly summon the toad stomach to bind his leg and digest him. 


Jiraiya has PLENTY of ways to kill raikage. A shinobi of Jiraiya's caliber can easily out wit him and destroy him.



HM is just over kill. the fleats both strength and speed fleats are there. Most of you guys are ignoring it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> I don't know about that, Frog Song is a sound based genjutsu, unless Raikage somehow goes deaf halfway in battle, he's pretty much fucked when Jiraiya starts playing his soundtrack.



I think the mechanics of his raiton shroud prevents genjutsu from working, it is irrelevant whether it is vision based or sound based.


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## Lezard Valeth (Sep 10, 2009)

HM Jiraiya is faster and stronger, ask soul reaper Pain if you don't believe me, he got kicked-blind in the face

Frog song is also a inescapable end for Raikage

Jiraiya wins with moderate difficulty


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## Sage giles (Sep 10, 2009)

Who the fuck is the raikage?????????


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2009)

Sage giles said:


> Who the fuck is the raikage?????????



You may not know him if you haven't read up to the latest chapters of the manga.


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## Bart (Sep 10, 2009)

Lezard Valeth said:


> HM Jiraiya is faster and stronger, ask soul reaper Pain if you don't believe me, he got kicked-blind in the face
> 
> Frog song is also a inescapable end for Raikage
> 
> Jiraiya wins with moderate difficulty



Hey Lezard, apparantly the Raikage can not be effected by Genjutsu, considering how he stared at Sasuke, when Sasuke was staring directly at him with eyes open and a hand-seal at the ready; definitely Genjutsu due to the similarities between the scene with Shi.

HM Jiraiya may indeed be stronger, but we havien't seen all the strength that Raikage is capible of achieving, but he is definitely faster than HM from what we have seen.

Frog Song is an interesting branch of Genjutsu, it being sound, but my answer is in the first paragraph.


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## Mio (Sep 10, 2009)

Lezard Valeth said:


> HM Jiraiya is faster and stronger, ask soul reaper Pain if you don't believe me, he got kicked-blind in the face


And Raikage drilled two huge fucking holes in Jugo, who is much more durabile with Curse Seal 2.



Lezard Valeth said:


> Frog song is also a inescapable end for Raikage


Frog song won't work on the Raikage.

Raikage takes it with low-mid difficulty. He outclasses Jiraiya in speed and reflexes, his raiton shroud makes his swamp jutsu useless, he's genjutsu immune. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Not to mention he's faster than Amaterasu, tanks Amaterasu casually and pimp slaps Susano'o like a bitch.




Jiraiya is fucked.


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## Lezard Valeth (Sep 10, 2009)

HM Jiraiya moves at light speed

it took two panels to assault pain with a senjutsu ultimate rasengan, two panels

it speaks much for his speed

also pain who has ultimate doujutsu, stronger than sharingan, couldn't read jiraiya moves and got kicked blind in the face

If rinnegan can't read jiraiya taijutsu, then sharingan can't either

sasuke fanboys support raikage only because raikage stomps sasuke
it is ridiculous to think jiraiya is weaker than sasuke


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## Mio (Sep 10, 2009)

Lezard Valeth said:


> HM Jiraiya moves at light speed






Lezard Valeth said:


> also pain who has ultimate doujutsu, stronger than sharingan, couldn't read jiraiya moves and got kicked blind in the face
> 
> If rinnegan can't read jiraiya taijutsu, then sharingan can't either


Rinnegan can't read moves, the Sharingan surpasses it in that area.


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## Suu (Sep 10, 2009)

Mio said:


> he's genjutsu immune.


Proof of this?


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## Mio (Sep 10, 2009)

Suu said:


> Proof of this?


Go


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## Bart (Sep 10, 2009)

Suu said:


> Proof of this?



As Mio stated, it was already suggested, not to mention many have been talking about it on previous pages, not to mention Lezard and I were speaking of it several posts above.


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## Suu (Sep 10, 2009)

Mio said:


> Naruto Shippuuden Episode 126



Raikage: "One down..."

Raikage: "Your Sharingan is no match for me!"

C: _Raikage's synapses fire as fast as a flash of light. I'm surprised they can keep up with him. But once he's surrounded by that Raiton chakra, not even the Sharingan can keep up wit him. And..."_


*

So where does it mention he's genjutsu immune again?

"Your Sharingan is no match for me!" - not an implication that he's immune to genjutsu. If anything, he's probably referring to the Sharingan's predictive abilities counting for naught in this battle, due to his amazing speed.


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## Mio (Sep 10, 2009)

Suu said:


> Raikage: "One down..."
> 
> Raikage: "Your Sharingan is no match for me!"
> 
> ...


Raikage looked straight in Sasuke's eyes, Sasuke tried to do a Genjutsu, it failed. 

Raikage says Genjutsu doesn't work on him.


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## Suu (Sep 10, 2009)

Mio said:


> Raikage looked straight in Sasuke's eyes, Sasuke tried to do a Genjutsu, it failed.
> 
> Raikage says Genjutsu doesn't work on him.


Err...Sasuke tried to use genjutsu?

Don't you think there would've been some sort of reaction if he tried and failed to use genjutsu?

There's also no logical reason for the Raikage to be genjutsu immune. KillerBee had a 'partner' inside him, which made sense. What's the Raikage's excuse?

And even KillerBee was affected by Sasuke's genjutsu for a short period of time, before breaking out of it.

Where does Raikage say genjutsu doesn't work on him?


----------



## Lezard Valeth (Sep 10, 2009)

Mio said:


> Raikage looked straight in Sasuke's eyes, Sasuke tried to do a Genjutsu, it failed.
> 
> *Raikage says Genjutsu doesn't work on him.*



I missed that panel, where is it?

Kabuto also said he was immune to genjutsu, does it makes Kabuto really immune to frog song?


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Sep 10, 2009)

Mio said:


> And Raikage drilled two huge fucking holes in Jugo, who is much more durabile with Curse Seal 2.



Yes and Juugo is a fodder . A simple chidori could have accomplished that..

LOL two holes and didn't even completly break the wall. Even Itachi could break walls.



HM Jiraiya made a *FUCKING TUNNEL THROUGH A BRICK WALL* *WITH ONLY 1 KICK*

A chidori could put a hole in Juugo and it didn't even break a wall.



Chidori>Gaara's sand defence>Kimimaro cs2 *enchanced* bones > Jugos normal Cs 2 body


HM Jiraiya Made a frickin *tunnel*. WITH ONE KICK.




Sushining Amatarasu is *not *a big deal . All you have to do is be faster than Sasuke who has a 4.5 speed, equal to *base *Jiraiya. HM Jiraiya being leagues faster than base Jiraiya would be able to do the same fleat.


Like It said base Jiraiya can take this 6/10 times, HM over kills this.

Deep Fryed= Katon + *Futon(rikiton's weakness)* + Oil + HUGE AOE
Hair: needle barrage (can tear through rock panda)

Frog Song: paralazyes the mind AND THE BODY. thus there is no hope of getting outof the genjutsu.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 rikiton shroud was pierced by a normal Chidori, a duel rasengan or Odama rasengan in base mode can easily kill him 







Jiraiya wont even fight in long range. He can turn the whole areana into a stomach and digest Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2009)

Darius... that was egregious.


----------



## HUNTER EMS (Sep 10, 2009)

People dont seem to realize how strong Jiraiya is,Jiraiya in hermit mode can hollow out an entire mountain with his great ball rasengan and kill most ninjas with one punch. His stronger then Raikage thats fact,Raikage wouldnt stande a chance against Jiraiyas summons. Shima,Fukasaku,Gamabunta,Gamaken,Gamihiro and Jiraiya in HM are just too much for Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2009)

We know he's powerful, but what you don't seem to realize is that Jiraiya's never fought anyone like Raikage. Jiraiya was kicked in the face by Gai without Gates and Raikage is *much* faster. Jiraiya needs space, he needs air to breathe, in order to get off that Ninjutsu. He needs space to get in to Hermit Mode. This isn't Orochimaru without arms or Pein's fodder bodies, this is someone who is as fast as Yondaime Hokage with incredibly deadly Ninjutsu and equally impressive durability. Even if you give Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt and he gets off a Ninjutsu - what does Jiraiya have that can hurt the Raikage? The guy tanked a chakra canon and brushed off a Chidori - the ultimate piercing technique - like it was nothing. If Jiraiya gets in to Hermit Mode - which he wouldn't - then he still wouldn't have the speed advantage necessary to protect Ma and Pa and they would be eating a Chidori long before they finished their Genjutsu.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Sep 10, 2009)

Illusory said:


> We know he's powerful, but what you don't seem to realize is that Jiraiya's never fought anyone like Raikage. Jiraiya was kicked in the face by Gai without Gates and Raikage is *much* faster



Dude Gai kicked him by accident when he was not expecting it. After wards I recall gai begging Jiraiya to forgive him.




> Jiraiya needs space, he needs air to breathe, in order to get off that Ninjutsu. He needs space to get in to Hermit Mode. This isn't Orochimaru without arms or Pein's *fodder* bodies,


:faceplam Did you just call pain a fodder.

Fodder that soloed one of the most strongest hidden village and raped many Jonins. Please don't be surprised when the pain bodies have a speed tier of 4 or 5 in the DB4



> this is someone who is as fast as Yondaime Hokage



Correction, the guys reaction speed is comparable to base Yodaime. 

Reaction speed =/= speed and Jiraiya is not slow he has on the speed tier of 4.5 equal to sasuke. Jiraiya can easily make more distance. IE:tactical retreat. He can summon a toad to protect him and make distance.




> with incredibly deadly Ninjutsu and equally impressive durability.



Yes, Raikage is impressive in close range. But beyond hand to hand he cant do much. The range is MID RANGE 50m. for crist sakes. 



> Even if you give Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt and he gets off a Ninjutsu - what does Jiraiya have that can hurt the Raikage?
> 
> The guy tanked a chakra canon and brushed off a Chidori - the ultimate piercing technique - like it was nothing.



HMM! rasengan, Dual rasengan, odama rasengan in Base mode he can still use them. AND DOES* INTERNAL* DAMAGE along with its piercing ability.

Summons! which raikage can do shit against. 

Katon:Gama endan which has a HUGE AOE.




> If Jiraiya gets in to Hermit Mode - which he wouldn't - then he still wouldn't have the speed advantage necessary to protect Ma and Pa and they would be eating a Chidori long before they finished their Genjutsu.





Ma can easily despess the Rikiton shroud using her futon.


They have acidic tongue, and ROCK SLICING tongues.


And Jiraiya is easily *stronger* than Raikage, unless you have a strength feat that can match HM Jiraiya making a tunnel using a single kick. Your argument holds no meaning. Raikage has yet to show some thing that comes remotely close to beating HM Jiraiya's strength.


*Spoiler*: __ 




And Speed fleat I can say HM Jiraiya also have better fleats. Blitzing amaterasu has no meaning as Base Jiraiya is also as fast as Sasuke, saying than HM Jiraiya >>>>Sasuke so he might have just be able to do the same.
 So I unless you have a pic of Raikage closing HUGE distance in a second then you argument holds no weight.





Raikage speed is enhance by  Rikiton* ninjutsu*. Jiraiya's Speed is enhanced by* Senjutsu*


Senjutsu boost > Ninjutsu boost

So going by just that statement I can say 


SM speed > Rikiton shroud



Compare the HM Jiraiya's distance
Utsusemi
Launch!
shot out with sheer force 
Land in one panel
Link removed


Now show me raikage's speed fleat.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 10, 2009)

well, i would say this again if jman goes into hm raikage eats dirth. the frog summons are 2 much, then there is yomi numa. we have no idea how the raikage raiton shroud can wisthand that. then there is the partial frog summon, then barrier ninjutsu to detect movement. then the toad gourd to capture raikage. raikage is lyk i said nappa in ssj3. he doesnt think. if i were to give an example, it would be spoiler so i wnt. but yh raikage would be easily tricked. hence jman kills him 10/10 if he gets into sage mode. if not he dies 5/10.


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## HUNTER EMS (Sep 10, 2009)

Illusory said:


> We know he's powerful, but what you don't seem to realize is that Jiraiya's never fought anyone like Raikage. Jiraiya was kicked in the face by Gai without Gates and Raikage is *much* faster. Jiraiya needs space, he needs air to breathe, in order to get off that Ninjutsu. He needs space to get in to Hermit Mode. This isn't Orochimaru without arms or Pein's fodder bodies, this is someone who is as fast as Yondaime Hokage with incredibly deadly Ninjutsu and equally impressive durability. Even if you give Jiraiya the benefit of the doubt and he gets off a Ninjutsu - what does Jiraiya have that can hurt the Raikage? The guy tanked a chakra canon and brushed off a Chidori - the ultimate piercing technique - like it was nothing. If Jiraiya gets in to Hermit Mode - which he wouldn't - then he still wouldn't have the speed advantage necessary to protect Ma and Pa and they would be eating a Chidori long before they finished their Genjutsu.



My point is that Jiraiya can 1HKO Raikage in hermit mode. Jiraiya can also slow down Raikage with his summonings, it doesnt take long for Jiraiya to summon his toads. The toads would protect Jiraiya from Raikage just like Jugo and Suigetsu protected Sasuke from Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2009)

The toads don't move like Sugietsu or Juugo. They're not going to be keeping up with the Raikage. Jiraiya can't 1HKO Raikage period. I don't know why you would even say that. Darius, if you're going to respond to me, try to understand what I said. Gai still hit Jiraiya. The Pein bodies that fought Jiraiya were among his weakest. I don't see any of his base mode Rasengans getting through his shroud. Chidori did because the technique is specifically developed to penetrate defenses. Larger attacks that obliterate open enemies but not defenses won't work in this situation. Raikages speed feats outshine Jiraiya far and wide. Jiraiya is as fast as Sasuke, but he's not faster than his eyes - not even close. The only thing that has been shown to be faster than Sharingan perception yet is Itachi's subtle maneuvers. Even Lee with four Gates was perceived. He's also still wearing training weights. Jiraiya loses quickly unless he starts off in Hermit Mode. If he's in Hermit Mode, it's a good fight, but he's still at a major disadvantage.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 10, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The toads don't move like Sugietsu or Juugo. They're not going to be keeping up with the Raikage.



One toad was as strong a Kisame. It can keep the Raikage busy. Jiraiya can summon gammabutan under him and be on him. Then jump high into the air and be out of the raikage's range.




> Jiraiya can't 1HKO Raikage period. I don't know why you would even say that. Darius, if you're going to respond to me, try to understand what I said. Gai still hit Jiraiya.



And Sasuke who is slower than Gai still hit the Raikage. Suigetshu STILL BLOCKED THE RAIKAGE.




> The Pein bodies that fought Jiraiya were among his weakest.



Where did you get this, all the pain bodies are strong. Human realm IS ONE OF THE MOST PHYSICALLY STRONGEST REALM. Animal can easily solo the Raikage. try debating here  >Wild Sunshine Contest Poll (Banner)

All the pain realms are strong. Don't make Pain look weak. That just fails.




> I don't see any of his base mode Rasengans getting through his shroud. Chidori did because the technique is specifically developed to penetrate defenses.



Chidori was suppose to pierce the enemy. Rasengan pierces AND causes internal damage. LOOK at chidori vs rasengan chidori pierced the tank easily. rasengan didn't pierce it easily but it blew the INSIDE of the tank out the other side. compare the same thing. Rasengan would do way more damage. Double rasengan would do even more damage. And odama rasengan would easily kill him.




> Larger attacks that obliterate open enemies but not defenses won't work in this situation



Explain why! an which attack you are talking about.




> .Raikages speed feats outshine Jiraiya far and wide. Jiraiya is as fast as Sasuke, but he's not faster than his eyes - not even close. The only thing that has been shown to be faster than Sharingan perception yet is Itachi's subtle maneuvers. Even Lee with four Gates was perceived. He's also still wearing training weights. Jiraiya loses quickly unless he starts off in Hermit Mode. If he's in Hermit Mode, it's a good fight, but he's still at a major disadvantage.





Unless you can give me a descent speed fleat your argument holds no weight.

Raikage has blitzed sasuke's sharingan just like meaning he is as fast as itachi who has a speed tier of 5. I AM NOT SAYING *BASE* JIRAIYA is as fast as raikage I AM SAYING *HM* JIRAIYA is fast if not faster than the Raikage. Neither blitzing juugo and sasuke whose speed is equal to Jiraiyas is proof of him being faster than HM Jiraiya.


What are you talking about you act as if Jiraiya who is a long range fighter would get into a taijutsu engagement with the raikage. who from at first sight looks like a taijutsu fighter.


Jiraiya can escape and retreat. He can turn the ground into a frog stomach thus restricting movement.And create a wall between the raikage and him 
Getsuga Tenshou Imbued Strike

And unlike the awesome Itachi, 
he lacks...... amaterasu!

 Like I said Jiraiya can outsmart the Raikage.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 10, 2009)

no illusory if he starts in hm he has the major adavantage. we know wat raikage is im actually tired of calling him nappa but he is. he is a meat head to be tricked. jman jutsu would certainly do. take him through a tunnel and use partial toad jutsu and there you have it he is either digested or stuck there, toad groud. please jman has 2many options. raikage 5 in speed and jman 4.5, true but jman can use his barrier ninjutsu to detect movement he cant see, so riakage isnt goign to hit him by jst blitzin in his direction.
best battle  in my opinion since i have been in this forum.


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## kingcools (Sep 10, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Yes and Juugo is a fodder . A simple chidori could have accomplished that..
> 
> LOL two holes and didn't even completly break the wall. Even Itachi could break walls.
> 
> ...




you are assuming stuff.
He didnt create a tunnel himself, the summon just pushed him that far into the wall.
Well, being faster then Sasuke seems to be a deal, as even deidera stated that he was "fast".

And personally do i prefer the interpretation of the stats that says they only refer to ones potential, thus meaning 4,5 of one character is not equal to anothers 4,5


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## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2009)

That's a good point. Deidara has the same speed as Sasuke in the databook if I'm not mistaken yet it was very clear who the faster individual was in their battle. Sasuke is faster than base Jiraiya. This means that Raikage is *much* faster than base Jiraiya.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 10, 2009)

Illusory said:


> That's a good point. Deidara has the same speed as Sasuke if I'm not mistaken yet it was very clear who the faster individual was. Sasuke is faster than base Jiraiya.



That is if you can prove to me that the Sannin will be slower than Sasuke. Deidera is a long range fihgter and underestimated Sasuke he was surprised at his speed thats all. Kakashi who has a speed of 4.5 and equal taijutsu was bested by kakuzu who is slower but stronger. Haruzin is 3 tier but still held his own against orochimaru 4.5. Speed is not a factor in close combat. Btw sasuke used sushin. to boost his attacks. Jiraiya can use that move too ya know.




kingcools said:


> you are assuming stuff.
> He didnt create a tunnel himself, the summon just pushed him that far into the wall.
> Well, being faster then Sasuke seems to be a deal, as even deidera stated that he was "fast".
> 
> And personally do i prefer the interpretation of the stats that says they only refer to ones potential, thus meaning 4,5 of one character is not equal to anothers 4,5




*FUCKING TUNNEL THROUGH A BRICK WALL*

There is no hole in the wall behind the bull



And yes Jiraiya can also be faster than Sasuke, cant he.


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## Turrin (Sep 10, 2009)

> genjutsu doesn't work on him.


Umm no. Sharigan Genjutsu doesn't work on him because he reflexes allow him to fight and prevent eye contact. It was never stated that some how the Lighting Shroud prevented all Genjutsu. Frog Song isn't some-thing he can react to as it effects his hearing at the speed of sound and fills the whole area with the sound of the song. So yeah Frog Song is probably one of the best counters to Raikage. Whether or not Jiraiya would be able to get off Frog Song is another story and i would rather wait till the end of the Sasuke/Raikage battle to see what happens


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## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2009)

He does need a great deal of time and space to get that off though, Turrin. Raikage will have ripped the frogs from Jiraiya's shoulders and fed them to one another before they finish their lengthy duet. But I agree, should he get it off, as unlikely as that is, it would likely work wonders. Darius, Jiriaya's speed is equal to Deidara's. Deidara doesn't move faster than Sasuke and he definitely doesn't move faster than Sasuke's Sharingan. Raikage completely outclasses Jiraiya in terms of mobility.


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## hmph (Sep 10, 2009)

Oh, I love speed arguments. They are, without doubt, the most baseless, pointless things in the battledome. For shinobi on the same tier, one with a speed edge is only that, a single advantage to be considered in the moves exchange. Just read the manga, slower ninjas win all the time. And I really don't want to hear about inability to react, because Suigetsu could react to raikage and Gaara could react to gated Lee in the chuunin exams, such a thing as "unable to react against speed" doesn't really exist between shinobi of the same tier.

Anyways, I still say Jiraiya takes this with Toad Mouth Bind in base.


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## Turrin (Sep 10, 2009)

> Turrin. Raikage will have ripped the frogs from Jiraiya's shoulders and fed them to one another before they finish their lengthy duet. But I agree, should he get it off, as unlikely as that is, it would likely work wonders.


Well logically Jiraiya could do it by escaping into his guard toad and then charging Frog Song there then sending out a Kage Bushin to trick Raikage and Appearing outside the Toad Guard as Raikage is distracted then starting Frog Song. He could also delay the Raikage with Swamp of the Under world and Gaint Boss Summons it would probably end up being close. But as i said i would like to see more of Raikage's Abilities first.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2009)

Turrin said:


> Umm no. Sharigan Genjutsu doesn't work on him because he reflexes allow him to fight and prevent eye contact. It was never stated that some how the Lighting Shroud prevented all Genjutsu. Frog Song isn't some-thing he can react to as it effects his hearing at the speed of sound and fills the whole area with the sound of the song. So yeah Frog Song is probably one of the best counters to Raikage. Whether or not Jiraiya would be able to get off Frog Song is another story and i would rather wait till the end of the Sasuke/Raikage battle to see what happens



Ugh no, he looked Sasuke in the eye, while he was standing still. It is your interpretation that his speed neglects sharingan genjutsu, whereas it wasn't stated in the manga.


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## Turrin (Sep 10, 2009)

> Ugh no, he looked Sasuke in the eye, while he was standing still. It is your interpretation that his speed neglects sharingan genjutsu, whereas it wasn't stated in the manga.


It looked as if he wasn't really looking Sasuke in the eyes to me. Its your interpretation that he is immune at all since that was never stated in the manga. All Raikage states is Sharigan won't work on me. This doesn't suggest that Genjutsu wouldn't work on him, but that the Sharigan its self is useless against him. And the only comment that we got about why the Sharigan is useless is from CI stating that Sharigan wouldn't be able to keep up with Full Power Raiton Shroud Raikage. 

Hence the logical conclusion isn't that Raikage is immune to all Genjutsu because of his Chakra Shroud surging through his body or whatever, but that Raikage is just able to counter Sharigan Genjutsu because his speed/Reflexes prevents the Sharigan from locking onto him long enough for the Sharigan user to cast Genjutsu on him. Aka his speed is the counter not the Chakra flow of Raiton or at least from the information we have been given thats what's been suggested.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 11, 2009)

well well people. raikage is ova rated sorry to say so. 
1) jman in sage mode is probably just as strong.
2) the frogs on his shoulder are just as strong( they are the sages remember that before writing anything)
3) shima can summon 3 boss frogs, plus any other frog she wants
4) now it is a 6 or 7 against 1. 14 eyes on one person
5) barrier ninjutsu would detect his shunshin,( btw it is impressive but his lack of sense got him killed. amateratsu is gonna burn him to death)
6) sasuke found a counter to his speed in less than a second
7) frog song
8) partial frog summon( strenght alone would not prevent him from being digested)
9) needle barrage is a pretty fast move if it does kill him it would give an oppening
10) gamabunta has suiton justu it is gonna be a bitch have eletricity run through u when ur wet.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

machiavelli2009 said:


> barrier ninjutsu would detect his shunshin,( btw it is impressive but his lack of sense got him killed. amateratsu is gonna burn him to death)



Just like Sasuke could detect Lee's movements in their first encounter.



machiavelli2009 said:


> sasuke found a counter to his speed in less than a second



With one of the most impressive defenses shown yet. 



machiavelli2009 said:


> frog song



Needs a lot of time, a lot of space, and gives away your position.



machiavelli2009 said:


> needle barrage is a pretty fast move if it does kill him it would give an oppening



... Just no.



machiavelli2009 said:


> gamabunta has suiton justu it is gonna be a bitch have eletricity run through u when ur wet.



This is baseless and doesn't make sense.


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## mastergimmy (Sep 11, 2009)

If jiraiya starts off in sagemode then i wood say its quite a close match, with around equal strength and skills


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 11, 2009)

well illusory, i would say ur stuck on raikage. which is fine, but unlike sasuke who was figting by himself jman would have 4 extra eyes on the look out for him. has speed, please dnt deny this and has strenght. so its 3 brute strenghts vs 1. the frogs are strong. now,  the frog song have you forgotten how he caught 3 people in it?? then again, he caught a pain body in his toad gourd although 5 other bodies where watching. he must have done it in a smart way, are u trying to tell me that such a tech wnt work on raikage??
and i dnt think raikage is all that keen on getting wet, and there is shima wind justu that cuts through raiton shroud anyday.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

Extra sets of eyes don't mean much when the Sharingan can't follow your movements. I haven't forgotten about the Frog Song, but Jiraiya can't simply avoid or outrun the Raikage like he did with the lower tiered Pein bodies. The Raikage will be in his face pressuring him and he'll be smart enough to know he should stop the frogs from finishing their duet which he is extremely capable of doing within the lengthy amount of time he has. Link this jutsu that Jiraiya has that would pierce through Raikage's shroud and that Raikage would be unable to avoid and/or break out of. Like I've said, Jiraiya is dependent on superior mobility to fire his effective Ninjutsu. He doesn't have that in this case.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 11, 2009)

kk, im about to link every jutsu i think he has a chance with.wanted to try hot oil!!
wanted to try. by far supireor to chidori in terms of damage
wanted to try. notice his escape, fast and unexpected huh. especailly for the raikage who has his vegeta tendencies.lol!!
wanted to try notice the trick.
wanted to try.
wanted to try. acid, take note of that.
wanted to try. 
there you have it.
wat makes those pain bodies the lower tier??


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## αce (Sep 11, 2009)

*sigh*

Read the latest chapter.

raikagae stomps.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

machiavelli2009 said:


> kk, im about to link every jutsu i think he has a chance with



And lets compare it to this.



machiavelli2009 said:


> wanted to try hot oil!!



I don't think so, it's less concentrated than the Juugo's canon and if Naruto can shove through a Katon with Kyubi chakra than I'm guessing that the Raikage can do it with his Chidori armor.



machiavelli2009 said:


> wanted to try. by far supireor to chidori in terms of damage



The ultimate Rasengan is no doubt superior, but it's not a piercing attack and it can be pushed backed or held because of it's massive volume. Few are better suited to doing just that than the Raikage. This would be Jiraiya's best shot most likely, but I wouldn't count on it working the majority of the time.



machiavelli2009 said:


> Link removed. notice his escape, fast and unexpected huh. especailly for the raikage who has his vegeta tendencies.lol!!



Escaping from those Pein bodies isn't the same as escaping from someone whose reflexes and speed surpass Sharingan insight. In my humble opinion, this wouldn't fly for elite shinobi, let alone one as well versed in the physical arts as Raikage.



machiavelli2009 said:


> Link removed notice the trick.



Jiriaya's sneaky, but he wouldn't have the space to set up an ambush in the first place. Plus Raikage is too fast for that. He would plummet right through that Katon and smack Jiraiya.



machiavelli2009 said:


> frog song Link removed.



Jiraiya was fleeing from Pein for an entire chapter getting the frog song ready. It is my opinion that he wouldn't have that type of success with someone who is as fast and unstoppable as Raikage.



machiavelli2009 said:


> Link removed. acid, take note of that.



It's interesting, but as it occurred after a jump in the battle there's no way to determine how it came about or whether it was there to begin with.



machiavelli2009 said:


> Link removed.
> there you have it.



This is heavily dependent on the environment and we're also assuming Raikage couldn't just bust out or that he would be in any worse a position to beat down Jiraiya. This is a Ninjutsu we didn't really get to test out, but unless they fight in a narrow hallway it's probably of no consequence.



machiavelli2009 said:


> wat makes those pain bodies the lower tier??



Sage Mode Naruto, who's likely a great deal slower than the Raikage, raped them with speed. Considering that Jiraiya's entire offense was based upon evading them it's flawed to assume those tactics would work on someone who could move several times as fast as each of them.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 11, 2009)

well, u are hard to beat in arguments but i must say that raikage chances of beatin jman is 5/10. not decided at all. ill think of something though.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

I would more or less agree with you *if* Jiraiya starts in Hermit.

Without that initial bump, Raikage overwhelms.


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## hmph (Sep 11, 2009)

And yet I still have yet to see an answer, at all, to Toad Mouth Bind. Not even starting in on other arguments...


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## SniXSniPe (Sep 11, 2009)

Jiraiya's stats:

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3
Knowledge: 4.5
Power: 4.5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Seal: 4.5


Where on earth do you guys get that Jiraiya is much slower than Sasuke in his base form? They are the same speed, only difference is Sasuke has Sharingan to predict moves. 

Jiraiya is pretty freaking powerful in his Hermit Mode.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

hmph said:


> And yet I still have yet to see an answer, at all, to Toad Mouth Bind. Not even starting in on other arguments...



Link me please and I'll do my best.


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## hmph (Sep 11, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Link me please and I'll do my best.



Link removed

It's what Jiraiya used on Itachi/Kisame.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2009)

Oh, this was my answer:



			
				Illusory said:
			
		

> This is heavily dependent on the environment and we're also assuming Raikage couldn't just bust out considering what we've seen him punch through or that he would be in any worse a position to beat down Jiraiya. This is a Ninjutsu we didn't really get to test out, but unless they fight in a narrow hallway it's probably of no consequence.


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## hmph (Sep 11, 2009)

Hmm? I don't remember seeing that in the thread...

Either way, the setting is an inclosed area, and he has used it outdoors. Sort of.

More to the point, blunt physical attacks seem pretty worthless against a massive wall of muscle and meat than encloses you from all sides. Eventually Raikage wouldn't be able to gather the necessary leverage to put much force behind his arms at all. Furthermore, to bust out he'd have to do so while facing down Jiraiya before he gets enclosed.


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## Emperor JJ (Sep 12, 2009)

Guys, you realize we didn't see the full extent of the Raikage's abilities, right? 
For all we know, he can make a huge explosion or something to set him free. It's not a fair fight because we have not so much knowladge on his power!


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 12, 2009)

well, its an even match if jman starts in based mode if he starts in hm its 6/10. 
jman is fast has a detection barrier and his body is resistant, remember wen naruto fell of a clif in SM he was barely hurt. again nice ass battle


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## Hiruzen (Sep 12, 2009)

Jiraiya in HM is likely physically stronger, and maybe a little slower, then Raikage. However, Jiraiya arsenal is very extensive. There are many Katon's he could use, including the frog oil technique. His doton would be useless, due to Kishi's gay elemental logic. I'm sure he could tank a couple of Raikage punches if he was hit, and he could summon a horde of summons in which Raikage might not be able to deal with ALL of them.

Jiraiya wins until we get further feats from Raikage.


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## Lezard Valeth (Sep 12, 2009)

Jiraiya wins easily, Raikage can't keep up with Sage Mode and its wide arsenal of surreal jutsus.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 12, 2009)

not true valeth, he wnt be overwhelmed by he definately wnt have the advantage.


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## Bart (Sep 12, 2009)

Raikage wins.

Raikage's speed and strength is ridiculously impressive. Raikage's reflexes and synapses are on the same level as that of Yondaime. Many on this thread are forgetting that HM Jiraiya was blocked by Human Realm. 

Jiraiya hit Human and Anima Realm, and didn't even kill him, wheras SM Naruto defeated them in almost one-shot and had "blitzed" them while Jiraiya was blocked. 

Many of us know what Raikage had recently dodged and broken.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 12, 2009)

dnt understand the last part of wat you wrote. but wat are jman chances??


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## Sadgoob (Sep 12, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



He dodged Amatarasu and broke Susanoo. Of course it was Sasuke using them who *just* discovered the techniques, but it's still quite a feat.


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## Kind of a big deal (Sep 12, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah that pretty much means he's faster than Sasuke's expert vision. That's massively fast, far more than anything Jiraiya has shown. Only Madara and Yondaime could be that fast.


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## clador (Sep 13, 2009)

Emperor JJ said:


> Guys, you realize we didn't see the full extent of the Raikage's abilities, right?
> For all we know, he can make a huge explosion or something to set him free. It's not a fair fight because we have not so much knowladge on his power!



we have never seen jiraiya hermit mod in full power too
i mean against pain , he was trying to know who was pain , and was fighting 3 guy in the same time with same abilities and jiraiya had no aknowedge , to beat pain you need to know how he fight

so we have never seen jiraiya hermit mod full power against someone


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## Yoko (Sep 13, 2009)

Its safe to say HM Naruto = HM Jiraiya considering the frog said that Naruto had surpassed the ones who came before him (and while he said this, the silhouettes of Minato and Jiraiya were conveniently shown).  Even if HM Jiraiya is a bit stronger, the different won't be as significant as some are trying to imply.


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## Oyako Shinju (Sep 13, 2009)

Yokokorama said:


> Its safe to say HM Naruto = HM Jiraiya considering the frog said that Naruto had surpassed the ones who came before him (and while he said this, the silhouettes of Minato and Jiraiya were conveniently shown).  Even if HM Jiraiya is a bit stronger, the different won't be as significant as some are trying to imply.



Wait, what? why is it safe to say that they are equal if Naruto has surpassed Jiraya... that makes no sense.


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## Klue (Sep 13, 2009)

Yokokorama said:


> Its safe to say HM Naruto = HM Jiraiya considering the frog said that Naruto had surpassed the ones who came before him (and while he said this, the silhouettes of Minato and Jiraiya were conveniently shown).  Even if HM Jiraiya is a bit stronger, the different won't be as significant as some are trying to imply.



It's safe to say they are equal to one another if it were said that Naruto surpassed them? 

Alrighty.


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## MasterHentai (Sep 13, 2009)

*Jiraiya takes it*

OK! THE END ALL BE ALL!!!

Now I respect both ninjas as extremely powerful shinobi.

We have jiraiya and Raikage.

putting these two up in a match just means one thing...EPICNESS.
now consider the playing field.
50m or w/e indoors. im guessing indoors enough to actually have a battle.

So lets consider what they do....
as far as pure offense goes.
Jiraiya:
-Summons(except ken; summons can not only use their size but taijutsu and ninjutsu)
-combos with summons
-rasengan (reg, double, oodama) no cooldown
-swamp
-katon: gamayu endan (deadly with oil combo)
-hair needle (fastest attack in HM)
-great taijutsu
-water bullets (with toads, can be infused with his chakra)
-wild lions mane
-toad stomach ( um....yeahhhhh.... )
JIRAIYA W/ HM:
+Ma and Pa (and their deadly jutsu)
+Deepfryer
+Amazing speed
+frog song ( arguably best genjutsu we've seen so far )
+oodama rasengan upgrade
+amazing strength
+....one can go on about jiraiys jutsu.....

RAIKAGE:
Amazing speed (better than jiraiya normal, not HM)
Amazing Strength (better than jiraiya normal, not HM)
His "wrestling move" (not sure if that was in spoiler or not)
takes off his weights ( x factor? )

now for defense!!!!
Jiraiya:
Summons ( any of them i would say )
ultimate barrier ( auto-detects any movement that enters )
swamp (for stalling or charging countering etc. so it could be def. or off.)
toad stomach (can be offensive and defensive)
hare jizo?? (cant remember how to say it; the spikey hair wrapping around him)
great with substitution jutsus (not just kawarami)
JIRAIYA W/ HM:
+the vision of ma and pa(extra eyes)
+upgrade of everything
+frog jumping distance

RAIKAGE:
his raiton body aura (sorry forgot name)
and he's just durable (we are pretty sure...)

NOW ONE THING THEY BOTH HAVE IN COMMON IS THIS:
neither of them will give up, both have higher willpower than anybody else in the show(except maybe naruto) jiraiya brought himself back to life with sheer willpower, to relay the message. Raikage sacrificed his left arm just to attk sasuke.

NOW SOME DIFFERENCES ARE THIS:
Raikage is Hotheaded, and emotions controll him easily.
Jiraiya on the otherhand is the complete opposite. hes EXTREMELY TACTICAL! (as scene in the pain fight )

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
when jiraiya was going to face pein he knew nothing about thim. nothing that would influence battle in any way. In HM he was able to kill 3 peins while still trying to figure out wtf they do. IMO he was killed caught off guard and thought he killed pein, so he turned to leave. little did he know he had more bodies. imagine how things would have went if jiraiya entered that battle knowing about Pein.
Well Jiraiya is entering this battle definitely knowing about The Raikage.
and before the battle even began, would have a tactic about how to go about fighting him. which gives him a great edge in hermit mode.
Now not to say the Raikage doesnt' know about jiraiya either, but based on what we know, it wouldnt' really matter cuz Raikage is a "hothead" who would fight anybody the same way.....with his constant trying of getting a 1 hit/ 1 ko punch/kick/slam in.
also, i've seen alot of ppl say raikages raiton aura could negate jiraiyas swamp cuz of the element weakness....
well then i say rasengan rapes his raiton aura cuz wind defeats lighting (problem solved??)

So Jiraiya and Raikage are entering the battlefield.
right away jiraiya knows what he's getting himself into, so he MIGHT come in with HM mode already on........which is gg...
but lets say he didnt'.

if there are any corners or rooms in this battlefield then jiraiya has a distinct advantage with stalling and getting HM on. and putting his ult barrier up could instantly track where the Raikage is coming at him from, and thus would have a summon to have his back. Summoning a toad, jiraiya takes but 3 seconds. say raikage turns on his raiton aura strait off the bat. if this is indoors. then jiraiys has a whole arsinal of jutsu to keep the raikage at bay....weather its toad stomach, swamp, or w/e
either way, raikage will be delayed GREATLY if not stuck. then its GG....
so say his raiton aura negates the swamp, AND ( for some reason the stomach ).
he's still be slowed down enough to either be ganked by jiraiya and a smaller toad.
or just raped by gamabunta or w/e other frog, (mainly bunta). so then raikage is extremely durable right? so he survives.....(somehow from bunta) and then he attacks bunta, well imma tell you right now, bunta aint getting pushed around by some buff guy who thinks hes all that, and is treatening jiraiya.....
bunta will defend himself or just attack, then which leaving him open to jiraiyas attacks, or vise versa. (he attacks jiraiya, bunta's got his back)
so chances are jiraiya is on top of bunta right? or any frog.
in order for the raikage to engage combat with jiraiya he needs to jump up to get there, in which he'd just get owned by higher ground (rasengan, sheild spikeclub, sword, frog tongue catching him, jutsu combo) raikage might be able to get out of the grasp of one of those frogs toungues, but it would be hard. so lets say he does. he still needs to do some sort of damage to jiraiya to win this fight.....
lets say he can move so fast he "teleports" way up to where the top of the frogs head is. and punches/kickes jiraiya off of the toads head (jiraiya caught off guard goes flying) frog now knows and will try to shake him off or something. jiraiys summons another frog (ok gg) so lets say he doesn't summon another frog, and retriets while the first frog is trying to get rid of raikage killing it. jiraiys has his barrier up ready to go into HM. (gg) ok so now he goes into hiding (if there is and puts up a barrier) raikage enteres blindingly not knowing he's entereing this barrier and gets owned by an oodama rasengan. or any other jutsu (preferably the rasengan)
and he lives, he's really injured at that point, but lets say he's not cuz he's (really durable and doesn't give up) ok so jiraiya uses lions mane after the rasengan and holds him there while his summon from earlier owns him. well lets say raikage killed that frog already.....(somehow) jiraiyas lions mane wont hold for long, so raikage rips the hair apart with sheer chakra......jiraiya summons another toad there......and does his famouse fire aoe (the one against orochimaru in sannin fight) and theres no escape for something like that in an enclosed area....(even for raikage.....your not just gonna run out of something that big)....so right there something that powerfull could probably put the match in the bag.....well lets say raikage, does a move that makes him unaffected. and charges jiraiya now that he has the chance. toad is there for defense and jiraiy does his hare jizo. well raikage aint taken that shit....and doesnt care if he gets a little hurt from those spikes, he's gonna tear open that hair and take a crack at jiraiyas face. well has he's punching through the spikes and jiraiya goes flying again. raikage has needles stuck in him, and the frog is fighting him...
jiraiya is hurt and is taking time to get up....yeah..lets say that....and raikage kicks the shit out of the summon. ( by the way, i guess raikages raiton aura has been on the whole time and hasnt' turned it off to conserve chakra or hasn't run out) jiraiya summoned 2/3 toads, a couple moves....he's running a little low on chakra? fair to say that? i think so. So no both of them want to brawl,  well brawlings not gonna do much for raikage unless he can punch through giant rasengans......
so raikage runs up and tries to hug jiraiya and slam him....(just not gonna happen, first off jiraiys is just to strong to let that happen to him, not like sasuke.....and jiraiya would use his hair spike technique to cancle that little deal....)
so yeah, against jiraiya,  the raikages "wrestling move" wont even get off....
so now ok....lets say this whole time they werent' fighting inside a giant toad stomach. he'll now summon one more defensive frog, and by a couple seconds to do the toad stomach. lets say raikage charges.....jiraiys would have already seen it coming and countered with a rasengan, (if he got past the toad) or would have been halted by the toad, for enough time to be caught in the stomach...
so now its gg...
now they are both low on chakra, dont matter for jiraiya cuz he's now in the toad stomach.....and if he needs a little chakra to manipulate the stomach walls then so be it....jiraiya would have  enough.....its gg...
and if worse comes to worse....its a draw, just him and raikage not giving up untill they kill eachother....(which btw jiraiya would have beaten ITACHI "oooh itachi's so godlike, >.<!!?!!" and KISAME!!!!! "highest chakra capasity, and a badass" ) and if not beaten them, taken them down with him....
he could do the same to raikage....most definitely....
worst comes to worst - draw
THATS WITHOUT HERMIT MODE!

yes Raikage is a kage...and he's pretty badass...
but think about it....
jiraiys was nominated before tsunade..
he's a badass too.....
but since people has seen his Hermit mode...people look at regular jiraiya as some little weakling compared to HM power...
well news flash.
regular jiraiya by himself is a badass kage level nin, who's extremely experienced and has a deep knowledge about almost every ninja. cuz of how much he travels, and stuff.....
and Hermit mode is just......insane....
only the rinnegan was able to beat it.......
when he didn't even know what he was up against.....

OH  I FORGOT!!!!! let say raikage takes off those weights...
well then in the battle that i gave them above...
dont take into account any of the handicaps i was giving jiraiya...
and while your at it
go ahead and put him in Hermit mode..


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## MasterHentai (Sep 13, 2009)

the thing is...jiraiyas+moves+are+offensive+AND+defensive...he's+tactical+and+can+evade+combat+when+needed%2C+and+fight+when+needed.knowing+what+to+do+in+each+situation.+if+raikage+wants+to+rush+him%2C+he+has+ways+of+countering%2C+if+raikage+wants+to+try+and+with+speed%2C+then+guess+what%2C+that+what+summons%2C+swamps%2C+and+stomachs+are+for.......if+he+needs+time.....he's+indoors%2C+he+has+summons+swamps+and+stomachs...if+he+needs+an+extremely+powerful+offensive+move....well+jiraiya+is+kind+of+made+of+of+them....2+shinobis+ranked+as+high+as+either+of+them+cannot+win+a+battle+agaisnt+eachother+with+just+one+tactic...in+this+case%2C+raikage+is+pure+melee...jiraiya+has+a+full+arsanal+of+things+to+counter+him...or+just+strait+up+damage+himif+jiraiya+takes+a+punch+from+him......i+hope+it+countedcuz+raikages+takin'+a+100foot+long+sword+from+gamabunta+as+he's+doing+it....the+thing+alot+of+people+forget+to+realize+i+think.....is+that+jiraiya+base+mode.....is+Kage+level.          

OH  I FORGOT!!!!! let say raikage takes off those weights...well then in the battle that i gave them above...dont take into account any of the handicaps i was giving jiraiya...and while your at itgo ahead and put him in Hermit mode..so there you have it.....yes raikage is emmensly powerful....but jiraiya is too......and when you have an epic battle like this...then you need to take everything into account...i'd love to debate wit you guys i guess....but i think after this.people shoudl probably agree that jiraiya would win.....even if its a close match...innevitably...raikage will lose...


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 13, 2009)

MasterHentai said:


> the thing is...jiraiyas+moves+are+offensive+AND+defensive...he's+tactical+and+can+evade+combat+when+needed%2C+and+fight+when+needed.knowing+what+to+do+in+each+situation.+if+raikage+wants+to+rush+him%2C+he+has+ways+of+countering%2C+if+raikage+wants+to+try+and+with+speed%2C+then+guess+what%2C+that+what+summons%2C+swamps%2C+and+stomachs+are+for.......if+he+needs+time.....he's+indoors%2C+he+has+summons+swamps+and+stomachs...if+he+needs+an+extremely+powerful+offensive+move....well+jiraiya+is+kind+of+made+of+of+them....2+shinobis+ranked+as+high+as+either+of+them+cannot+win+a+battle+agaisnt+eachother+with+just+one+tactic...in+this+case%2C+raikage+is+pure+melee...jiraiya+has+a+full+arsanal+of+things+to+counter+him...or+just+strait+up+damage+himif+jiraiya+takes+a+punch+from+him......i+hope+it+countedcuz+raikages+takin'+a+100foot+long+sword+from+gamabunta+as+he's+doing+it....the+thing+alot+of+people+forget+to+realize+i+think.....is+that+jiraiya+base+mode.....is+Kage+level.
> 
> OH  I FORGOT!!!!! let say raikage takes off those weights...well then in the battle that i gave them above...dont take into account any of the handicaps i was giving jiraiya...and while your at itgo ahead and put him in Hermit mode..so there you have it.....yes raikage is emmensly powerful....but jiraiya is too......and when you have an epic battle like this...then you need to take everything into account...i'd love to debate wit you guys i guess....but i think after this.people shoudl probably agree that jiraiya would win.....even if its a close match...innevitably...raikage will lose...


That has to be the most absurdly confusing post and the sad part is, the only thing I understood was "Raikage will lose." I'm completely shot out on what your trying to prove w/the first paragraph though, I know I haven't taken algebra in almost two years but I'm pretty certain that you have a little more than one too many variables...


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## MasterHentai (Sep 14, 2009)

i was gonna put it in my first post, but i ran out of room.
i didnt' wanna type it again, so i copied it onto the address bar on another tab lol.
when i pasted it, all those plus signs showed up.
if you just concentrate on the words......then it shouln'dt be that hard.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 15, 2009)

Illusory said:


> And lets compare it to this.



He dodged it, not tanked it, look how Jugo was surprised
. If it was tanked Raikage would have been in front of Jugo.




> I don't think so, it's less concentrated than the Juugo's canon and if Naruto can shove through a Katon with Kyubi chakra than I'm guessing that the Raikage can do it with his Chidori armor.



You are forgetting Deep Fryer = Katon + *Futon* + Oil


Futon >Rikiton thus that futon might dispell Raikage chakra shroud.




> The ultimate Rasengan is no doubt superior, but it's not a piercing attack and it can be pushed backed or held because of it's massive volume. Few are better suited to doing just that than the Raikage. This would be Jiraiya's best shot most likely, but I wouldn't count on it working the majority of the time.



Rasengan not only pierces IT ALSO DAMAGES your INTERNAL ORGANS.And holding a rasengan is a huge NO NO as it could explode in your face. and cannot be pushed back it grinds you to dust, if it hit you. Hence Raikage has no defence against internally damaging attacks.




> Escaping from those Pein bodies isn't the same as escaping from someone whose reflexes and speed surpass Sharingan insight. In my humble opinion, this wouldn't fly for elite shinobi, let alone one as well versed in the physical arts as Raikage.



Sushining surpasses the speed of the Sharingan. Raikage's reflexes help. and don't call Pain a slow poke, each pain body soloed mulitple opponents.  AND seeing that they could keep up with SM Naruto and HM Jiraiya they definately have good reflexes. Dude don't be surprised if they all have a 4.5 tier -5 tier in speed.



> Jiriaya's sneaky, but he wouldn't have the space to set up an ambush in the first place. Plus Raikage is too fast for that. He would plummet right through that Katon and smack Jiraiya.




Frog Stomach bind could do the trick. Use a bunshin feint. It seems redicolous that the guy who taught uzumaki Naruto to use bunshins effectively in part2 would not use them himself. 




> Jiraiya was fleeing from Pein for an entire chapter getting the frog song ready. It is my opinion that he wouldn't have that type of success with someone who is as fast and unstoppable as Raikage.



Raikage is a chakra sensory type. He can track Jiraiya if he goes under ground(daton expert) or uses a Kage bunshin to hold the Raikage for a few seconds to allow him to escape. Its not that hard to escape using a smoke bomb. 



> It's interesting, but as it occurred after a jump in the battle there's no way to determine how it came about or whether it was there to begin with.




*Spoiler*: __ 






> Databook 3 - Kekkai: Gama Hyourou:
> Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison (結界・蝦蟇瓢牢, Kekkai: Gama Hyourou)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
> User: Jiraiya
> ...







Its is a summoning that Jiraiya used in a split second with ONLY one hand. An Amazing Last minute WTF surprise for the victim. And for close range fighters like raikage, it is a terrible move. The moment you are in Jiriyas barrier you are fucked, and unlike pain who had six bodies, Raikage only has one body.



> This is heavily dependent on the environment and we're also assuming Raikage couldn't just bust out or that he would be in any worse a position to beat down Jiraiya. This is a Ninjutsu we didn't really get to test out, but unless they fight in a narrow hallway it's probably of no consequence.








> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...








> *Sage Mode Naruto, who's likely a great deal slower than the Raikage, raped them with speed. *Considering that Jiraiya's entire offense was based upon evading them it's flawed to assume those tactics would work on someone who could move several times as fast as each of them.





Where are you assuiming this, SM Naruto has WAY better speed fleats, and did not rape *anyone with speed alone*, except Asura. Show me a manga panel.


Asura was taken out Via a Rasengan speed blitz unexpected.
Human was killed by a FFRS while trying to save Animal realm
Animal Realm, was trapped in *butans mouth* abd then rasengane
Naraka lost to a bunshin feint + rasengan combo
Hungry ghost realm petrified by Natural energy absorbtion
Deva was exhausted and then rasenganed


NONE of the Pain realms died form a pure speed blitz. So where are you getting Naruto raping pain.


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## potential (Sep 15, 2009)

You guys must understand that not only is it childish but it is completely absurd to even question who wins this fight.

Raikage is so much faster than Jiraya that he will and can literally run circles around him.

He can compete easily physically against him.

Speed is so ridicoulous that he can completely dissapear from view against a mature 3 tomoe sharingan. 

He has the elemental advantage. Jiraya won't be able to block a single attack considering that Raikage's whole body is completely enveloped in his elemental weakness.

Frog song will never be able to completed seeing that if he lets his guard down, he will be receiving a punch that can cleave through steel as if it was tissue paper. Infact, Raikage's agressive manner furing combat will having Jiraya literally sidestepping and blocking the whole entire fight. 

Jiraya can't win without performing a justu and this is whar will happen since Raikage's agressive fighting style will render him unable.

Raikage wins.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2009)

Raikage's speed is heavily overrated and not only that, he lets his emotions take hold in battle. He literally let his arm get "eaten" by Amaterasu, last chapter. Clearly, I don't see where he's going to get off and pull the same stunt with a veteran fighter like Jiraiya.

At first, we were told "his sharingan" can't keep up with the Raikage, we were obviously proven wrong at the beginning of last chapter when Sasuke ducked Raikage's attack and pierced him with Chidori. Furthermore, Jiraiya has been shown to play multiple ends of the battlefield, he can switch from long range to short range.

Once Jiraiya enters HM, I think it's wrap. Both their speeds are probably off the charts however, Jiraiya has more ninjutsu rely on than Raikage's shown. Additionally, unlike the Raikage, Jiraiya actually thinks in battle.


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## Indestructible (Sep 16, 2009)

This would be strength vs strength battle. Eventually Jiraiya will be out-muscled and will need frog song where there will probably be a 50/50 chance for him to pull it off. From what we've seen so far from Raikage it will be extremely close and the winner is undecided for me. However we'll probably end up seeing some insane skills from Raikage and my opinion will most likely change after the next few chapters.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 16, 2009)

potential said:


> You guys must understand that not only is it childish but it is completely absurd to even question who wins this fight.
> 
> Raikage is so much faster than Jiraya that he will and can literally run circles around him.
> 
> ...


Why are you acting like Jiraiya will imediately be killed by Raikage's Taijutsu?
I'm sorry,but _base_ Jiraiya got hit by KN4 and still managed to subdue it...we all know what kind of damage KN4 can do from his fight with Oro.
He also took a direct hit from Pain's bull summon before he was in HM and came out completely unscathed.
Even if Raikage connects with a few blows(which he probably will),thats hardly enough to seriously hurt Jiraiya.

We also know that even if Jiraiya is seriously hurt,he still is a very dangerous opponent,especially with Ni Dai Sennin on his shoulders.
The 6 paths of Pain fight in perfect sync and have a very good defensive game,and Jiraiya(while he was wounded) still managed to capture one of them in his Gourd Toad.
Raikage on the other hand....saying he's not a strategic fighter is an understatement.If he gets caught in the Gourd Toad its all over for him...


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## Ra (Sep 16, 2009)

Raikage wins whether jiraiya is in base mode or HM. 

Base mode Raikage rape stomps with lightning shroud with lightning fist from hell. Also Raikage's variant of the "peoples elbow" will screw jiraiya if he's hit.

HM. Raikage power up if need be and rape stomp with his speed and his reflexs capability, all ninjutsu from jiraiya is dodged. Boss summon OOC and ma and pa is fodder before him.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Why are you acting like Jiraiya will imediately be killed by Raikage's Taijutsu?
> I'm sorry,but _base_ Jiraiya got hit by KN4 and still managed to subdue it...we all know what kind of damage KN4 can do from his fight with Oro.
> He also took a direct hit from Pain's bull summon before he was in HM and came out completely unscathed.
> Even if Raikage connects with a few blows(which he probably will),thats hardly enough to seriously hurt Jiraiya.
> ...



pretty much this..

So now raikage can speed blitz and kill everyone in the manga 

This is how it always goes.......
1)Something new gets introduced - OMG unbeatable, 
2)Genjutsu - OMG one hit KO
3)MS - Genjutsu rape - (x) person has shown no genjutsu defense! AUTO WIN
4)Sage Mode - is unstoppable and Hax
5)Speed blitz - OMG he can win in a speed blitz no1 can stop him
6) Gates -  8 gates solos the narutoverse


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## Suu (Sep 16, 2009)

Jiraiya could take this comfortably if he did the following.

>Immediately summon Gamabunta.

>Whilst standing atop Gamabunta, get Gamabunta to jump away (Gamabunta can jump _really_ high and _really_ far, mind you).

>Summon Ni Dai Sennin and prep Hermit Mode.

>Prep Frog Song.

Honestly, even with his incredibly speed, I doubt the Raikage could really try and tag a giant frog that covers hundreds of meters in a single leap, and can hinder movement using Suiton.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2009)

I think Raikage takes this. The Reason being is that jiraiya needs time for HM. Raikage will blitz base Jiraiya and Base jiraiya really doesn't have much that can harm Raikage. I would normally say Yomi Numa but i'm willing to buy into the fact that Raiton > Doton so it will dispel enough of Yomi Numa's Effects For Raikage to muscle his way out. 

The only other thing i can think of that Base Jiraiya could do is Duel Rasengan, but it probably wouldn't be enough and Gamma Yuedan, but i'm not Sure that Jiraiya would have enough time to Summon Bunta and Complete the Combo before Raikage blitzes him. So i don't think it will work.

If Jiraiya does manage to get into Hm it doesn't mean an automatic win either it just means that he will probably be able to fight Raikage on equal Footing and still really doesn't have a way to win as tagging Raikage with any of his attacks. The only way HM Jiraiya can win is gaining time for Frog Song, which i doubt will happen and/or getting off a strat to use Ultimate Rasengan on Raikage both of which i don't find likely. 

So i say Raikage takes this with High Difficulty.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 16, 2009)

Jiraiya's Choudama Rasengan will destroy Raikage in an instant.  He's good but Raikage's limited to Taijustu. Frog Song won't be effective.  But the tongue sure as hell will be.


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## Soul (Sep 16, 2009)

Long time no see, Hitsugaya 


Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Jiraiya's Choudama Rasengan will destroy Raikage in an instant.



the Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya, even in Sennin Moodo; Chou Oodama Rasengan shouldn't work.


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## hmph (Sep 16, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> the Raikage is way faster than Jiraiya, even in Sennin Moodo; Chou Oodama Rasengan shouldn't work.



And why not? Are you going to say hes going to dodge a melee attack twice the size of Jiraiya... and then win by entering melee to attack Jiraiya? 

Couple things. First, nothing stops Jiraiya from summoning Ni Dai Sennin without bothering for senjutsu. They still have wind elemental attacks, and they still have genjutsu, both fast and slow. Sage mode powers up their genjutsu, but I don't see it being required. Not saying a non sage mode quick genjutsu can certainly subdue the Raikage, but it could confuse him for time...

Second, a lightning shroud doesn't stop fire... from cooking you. I may be being too technical, but nothing practically stops the expansion of heat. Not saying a katon will kill Raikage, but it's there.

Third, nothing stops Jiraiya from using a bunshin feint/smoke bomb and just hiding if he needs time. We all know Raikage's no genius, and we know there are hiding spots (Karin) in this terrain, sooo...

Fourth, Toad Mouth Bind (again)

Yeah I still think Jiraiya wins pretty handily. Hes frankly too diverse for these one technique specialist shinobi. All Jiraiya needs to do to win is buy time. Thats it. Summons, playing hide and seek, you're really underestimating Jiraiya if you think he can't do this against a shinobi who's only skill is straight close combat.


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## Ra (Sep 16, 2009)

> Couple things. First, nothing stops Jiraiya from summoning Ni Dai Sennin without bothering for senjutsu. They still have wind elemental attacks, and they still have genjutsu, both fast and slow. Sage mode powers up their genjutsu, but I don't see it being required. Not saying a non sage mode quick genjutsu can certainly subdue the Raikage, but it could confuse him for time...



Raikage has shown to dodge point blanks attacks without receiving a scratch.



> Second, a lightning shroud doesn't stop fire... from cooking you. I may be being too technical, but nothing practically stops the expansion of heat. Not saying a katon will kill Raikage, but it's there.



It's dodged simple as that.



> Third, nothing stops Jiraiya from using a bunshin feint/smoke bomb and just hiding if he needs time. *We all know Raikage's no genius*, and we know there are hiding spots (Karin) in this terrain, sooo...



And what if jiraiya come out of his rat hole?

Your evidence of raikage being unintellectual is based on emotional charged events he presented that made him seem unintellectual.



> Yeah I still think Jiraiya wins pretty handily. Hes frankly too diverse for these one technique specialist shinobi. All Jiraiya needs to do to win is buy time. Thats it. Summons, *playing hide and seek*, you're really underestimating Jiraiya if you think he can't do this against a shinobi who's only skill is straight close combat.



You single handily proven Jiraiya's a bitch. 



> Why are you acting like Jiraiya will imediately be killed by Raikage's Taijutsu?
> I'm sorry,but base Jiraiya got hit by KN4 and still managed to subdue it...we all know what kind of damage KN4 can do from his fight with Oro.
> He also took a direct hit from Pain's bull summon before he was in HM and came out completely unscathed.
> Even if Raikage connects with a few blows(which he probably will),thats hardly enough to seriously hurt Jiraiya.



He had "special papers which= kn4 being destroyed by them. Kyuubi metaphorically follow a constitution of the world of 9 tail beastz" 

Lightning fist blows certainly will. The guy durability is not as powerful as juugo's.



> *We also know that even if Jiraiya is seriously hurt,he still is a very dangerous opponent,especially with Ni Dai Sennin on his shoulders.*
> The 6 paths of Pain fight in perfect sync and have a very good defensive game,and Jiraiya(while he was wounded) still managed to capture one of them in his Gourd Toad.
> Raikage on the other hand....saying he's not a strategic fighter is an understatement.If he gets caught in the Gourd Toad its all over for him...



There are different categories of being hurt and raikage hurt inflicting abilities surpass over 9000, which means jiraiya will be hurt so bad he's going to be KO.

I'm willing to bet bijuu level lightning fist can bust out the toad.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Sep 17, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> He dodged it, not tanked it, look how Jugo was surprised
> . If it was tanked Raikage would have been in front of Jugo.
> 
> 
> ...



raikage is chakra sensor type since when???


----------



## Marco (Sep 17, 2009)

Pa Toad will cut through Raikage with his tongue.. /fight

On a serious note, I don't see Raikage taking this one.

Base Jiraiya with a Boss Summon would be problem enough for Raikage and might have upper hand..

Sage Mode Jiraiya with a Boss Summon and Pa and Ma Toad will win with moderate ease.


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## Vergil642 (Sep 19, 2009)

Wow guys, are we actually thinkin Boss Summons>Raikage now?

Man, talk about polarisation of the fanbase. Some think he's beating Pain easily and others think he can't even take out a giant summon 

Think about this for a moment. Far slower people have dodged and generally run circles around Boss Summons. Raikage can not only do this, but beat their skulls in. Boss Summons would slow him down a little as there's more to plough through, but he's still going to plough through them like everything else.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 19, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Think about this for a moment. Far slower people have dodged and generally run circles around Boss Summons. Raikage can not only do this, but beat their skulls in. Boss Summons would slow him down a little as there's more to plough through, but he's still going to plough through them like everything else.



He didn't 'plough through' Gaara's sand,did he?Meanwhile Gamabunta went toe-to-toe with the Shukaku,sliced one of its hands and tanked on of its bijuu blasts with absolutely no damage.It'll take some doing for Raikage to take him down...
Gamabunta may have a hard time hitting him physically,but he also has massive AOE attacks.

The guys who are saying he'll beat Pain easily are retards.


----------



## Vergil642 (Sep 19, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> He didn't 'plough through' Gaara's sand,did he?Meanwhile Gamabunta went toe-to-toe with the Shukaku,sliced one of its hands and tanked on of its bijuu blasts with absolutely no damage.It'll take some doing for Raikage to take him down...
> Gamabunta may have a hard time hitting him physically,but he also has massive AOE attacks.
> 
> The guys who are saying he'll beat Pain easily are retards.



I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly bullshit feat of Gaara's sand. In part 1 we saw how easily Chidori pierced a condensed and far stronger version of it (the sand sphere thing), yet now the Raikage, who can smash through Susanoo, can't do it?

And Bunta tanked a condensed air blast from Shuukaku. This is not the same as the Bijuu Blasts we see from Hachibi and Kyuubi. Incidentally, what can Bunta really do? We've seen that when not at full power Raikage's Raiton Shroud can just barely be pierced by Sasuke's Chidori. That's the sort of piercing power you need to get through it.

What's Bunta got that'll do that much damage? The only thing I can think of is his sword, but that isn't going to be hitting someone as fast as Raikage.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 19, 2009)

Squish him!!!!!


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## Vergil642 (Sep 19, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Squish him!!!!!



Oh yes, how silly of me. Just like he did to Deva Rea-

Oh wait


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 20, 2009)

Yes, Raikage is going to use his magical flying jutsu, to fly up the ground....oh wait.


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## Ra (Sep 20, 2009)

Everyone just shut the hell up when I own thread. 



> Pa Toad will cut through Raikage with his tongue.. /fight
> 
> On a serious note, I don't see Raikage taking this one.
> 
> ...





> *Pa Toad will cut through Raikage with his tongue.. /fight*



I stopped taking this post serious right about here. 

Boss summon are OOC to summon on a mere ninja.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 20, 2009)

And Rai*kage* is a mere ninja. News to me


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## Ra (Sep 20, 2009)

> And Raikage is a mere ninja. News to me



A mere ninja in the logic that a ninja won't use a boss summon unless another boss summon is used.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 20, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> A mere ninja in the logic that a ninja won't use a boss summon unless another boss summon is used.



Please explain why, Jiraiya had no hesitation in summoning Gamaken during pain fight. Or Gamahiro during konoha's invasion. IF they are nessary he will summon them, and considering Raikage is a kage he should use summons to aid him in battle.


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## machiavelli2009 (Sep 20, 2009)

why is this goin on?
jman kills raikage, a pro wrestle with lots of speed isnt enough to compete with a ninja. 
and during the frog song nothing stop jman from still fighting normally. he isnt the one doin the jutsu, he can still use all his sage mode techs. so yh raikage gets owned


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## Jodyjoe the great (Sep 20, 2009)

raikage if im not mistake was sad to be on yondiame lvl in speed and is arguably the strongest person we have see in term of brute strength that combined with his nintaijustu would be to much for jmen to handle

the raikage wins anybody saying different just likes jmen more


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 20, 2009)

NO Raikage *reflexes* = Base Yodaime's* reflexes*

And Reflexes =/= movement speed.

It takes more that just speed to beat the a high level ninja.
Jiraiya is more level headed, smarter, and more versetile can definately take out the Raikage.


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## Ra (Sep 20, 2009)

> Please explain why, Jiraiya had no hesitation in summoning Gamaken during pain fight. Or Gamahiro during konoha's invasion. IF they are nessary he will summon them, and considering Raikage is a kage he should use summons to aid him in battle.



That's because pain was summoning, hence when another boss summon is summon then it's necessary to summon another boss summon to battle. Jiraiya was dead in the konoha invasion, so how does the konoha invason add to your argument?

Even if jiraiya realize he needed a boss summon he would be dead before he summoned them.


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## Aoshi (Sep 20, 2009)

I dont think Raikage can kill a Sage Mode Jiraiya with just Taijutsu lol. And even if he could, i doubt it will be in mere minutes. With Ma and Pa, Jiraiya should be able to defeat Raikage in Taijutsu. Adding all of his ninjutsu, and frog song, and summons, i dont think Raikage will win. 

And I think he was talking about the Orochimaru invasion.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Sep 20, 2009)

lol i think its obvious from the manga the raikage is stronger and faster then Jiraiya in or out of sage mode with more chakra and stamina too since its rivaling that of tailed beast lvls and theses are supposed to be areas where Jiraiya excels

the feats of raw power the raikage has shown are above anything  j-men has done with that said 

*the raikage takes it with difficulty*


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 20, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> lol i think its obvious from the manga the raikage is stronger and faster then Jiraiya in or out of sage mode with more chakra and stamina too since its rivaling that of tailed beast lvls and theses are supposed to be areas where Jiraiya excels
> 
> the feats of raw power the raikage has shown are above anything  j-men has done with that said
> 
> *the raikage takes it with difficulty*



None of this is true..... raikage has very little feats, its just hype from the cloud nins the only feat he has is sidestepping amaterasu and being a hotheaded dumbass.


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## Black Sabbath II (Sep 20, 2009)

Raikage is a grade A ninja who could one shot allot of people. But Jiraiya isn't one of them. Frog song. The end.

Jiraiya takes it with ease.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Sep 20, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> None of this is true..... raikage has very little feats, its just hype from the cloud nins the only feat he has is sidestepping amaterasu and being a hotheaded dumbass.



i think ur in denial im not making this up its in the manga  and i think only saying its not true cuz u dont wanna accept the fact that Jiraiya cant win

raikage with a single punch put a whole in a curse seal 2 jugo body which obliviously way more durable than that of a regular ninja not to mention he had a shield up and he just went right through it,face it hes stronger..j-men has never done no shit like that before and he did it witth one punch


in terms of speed well being on par with yondiame means of courses hes faster than Jiraiya not even sharingan can keep up jmen himself was never a ninja whos speed stats were outstanding

and as karin stated his charka lvls are that of a bijuu with his stamina to match 

u can reread the fight with sasuke again if u dont want to expect it but living in denial wont help cuz all of it is true hes just stronger and faster better period! 

like i said before *the raikage takes it with difficulty* due to ma and pa aidding


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## SM00TH38 (Sep 22, 2009)

Jman fans gave it up already.... anything short of HM is damn near an auto win for raikage. and due to raikage's fight style jiraiya isnt reaching HM


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 22, 2009)

Due to Jiraiya's brains, and use of tactial ninjutsu. Raikage is not even touching him. He is not going to fight Raikage in short range like Sasuke. Nor is he an Idiot like Sasuke to charge straight in front of the raikage. He can summon the Frog Stomach and Seperate himself inside by creating a wall between the raikage and him and then killing him by digensting the Raikage.

Or if a worst case senairo Jiraiya uses the toad gourd barrier and drowns the Raikage in acid.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 22, 2009)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> i think ur in denial im not making this up its in the manga  and i think only saying its not true cuz u dont wanna accept the fact that Jiraiya cant win
> 
> raikage with a single punch put a whole in a curse seal 2 jugo body which obliviously way more durable than that of a regular ninja not to mention he had a shield up and he just went right through it,face it hes stronger..j-men has never done no shit like that before and he did it witth one punch
> 
> ...



Raikage doesnt have speed on par with yondaime, he has reflexes on par with him while his lightning shroud is in effect which wont help him against jiraiya because i dont think jiraiya will be fighting him in close combat. Jiraiya also has a 5 in stamina which means its in league with kisames and kisame has bijuu level chakra. Jiraiya traps raikage in the toad stomach its gg, raikage just isnt that versityle to beet somewon like jiraiya. Jiraiya makes his 1hko barrier and tells raikage hes weak and his brothers dead, raikage gets pissed off and runs right into it.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 23, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Jiraiya isn't as strong or fast than the Raikage in his Base, neither in Sennin Moodo.
> I would argue that the Raikage would defeat a big-sized summon with less than 4 hits.


4 hits? Jiraiya, has defeated Boss Sized Summons with only *one* hit. (Granted, it was taijutsu.)
Still though. I'm not sure that Raikage is stronger than Hermit Mode. I mean, we've seen the feats of strength that Naruto accomplished with Sage Mode (Lifting that heavy statue, tossing a Boss Sized Rhino Summon into the air with little effort.) And while it may be because Naruto's better at using Senjutsu, Jiraiya isn't so far off that he couldn't do some of the same things. 

However, I will admit, that Raikage is much faster than Jiraiya. And is stronger than Jiraiya in Base Mode. However, I don't know about his strength vs Hermit Mode.



> The Raikage has used a "Raiton-shroud" two complete chapters; I would say that it is a very skilled Ninjutsu user, as not everyone has that kind of control over his chakra or on their element.


That's nice. But we haven't seen him use much Ninjutsu. Sure, we know he doesn't have a chakra deficiency (a la Rock Lee), but still, he's more like Maito Gai who doesn't use much Ninjutsu at all, though he can. This is bad though, against one of the most powerful ninjutsu users in the Naruto Manga. 

And also, I don't know if the Raikage has any jutsu powerful enough to escape something like the Toad Mouth Bind. Itachi had the special Amaterasu move, but Raikage seems to lack something of that power, (If his cut off arm is any indication.)


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## Nikushimi (Sep 25, 2009)

Raikage blitzes while Jiraiya tries to pose and scalps him with an elbow thrust.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 25, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Raikage blitzes while Jiraiya tries to pose and scalps him with an elbow thrust.



Only to realize he stepped into Jiraiya's barrier, and then gets digested in acid.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 25, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Only to realize he stepped into Jiraiya's barrier, and then gets digested in acid.



As I stated earlier, I do see this happening.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 25, 2009)

TheGreen1 said:


> As I stated earlier, I do see this happening.



as do i lol


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## Ra (Sep 25, 2009)

> 4 hits? Jiraiya, has defeated Boss Sized Summons with only one hit. (Granted, it was taijutsu.)



I'm curious of this, when did this happen?



> Still though. I'm not sure that Raikage is stronger than Hermit Mode. I mean, we've seen the feats of strength that Naruto accomplished with Sage Mode (Lifting that heavy statue, tossing a Boss Sized Rhino Summon into the air with little effort.) *And while it may be because Naruto's better at using Senjutsu, Jiraiya isn't so far off that he couldn't do some of the same things.*



Speculation.

Raikage is bijuu lever which> Hermit mode



> That's nice. But we haven't seen him use much Ninjutsu. Sure, we know he doesn't have a chakra deficiency (a la Rock Lee), but still, he's more like Maito Gai who doesn't use much Ninjutsu at all, though he can. This is bad though, against one of the most powerful ninjutsu users in the Naruto Manga.
> 
> And also, I don't know if the Raikage has any jutsu powerful enough to escape something like the Toad Mouth Bind. Itachi had the special Amaterasu move, but Raikage seems to lack something of that power, (If his cut off arm is any indication.)



Raikage with bijuu strength and raiton chop could go through the frog stomach.


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## Badalight (Sep 25, 2009)

Swamp of the underworld, toad acid barrier thing, frog tummy, Gambunta, and frog song would all give Raikage a run for his money.

Also, Jiraiya doesn't need to go Hermit mode to use frog song, he just needs to summon ma and pa, and at that point he just need to wait for them while he dodges.

Gamabunta could be summoned ontop of Raikage.

If anything, Jiraiya can jump ontop of any giant frog and just run away, Raikage has good reflexes but he's not going to catch a giant toad that can jump thousands of feet away.

Swamp of the underworld timed right would swallow Raikage.

Also, he's not invincible, a Chidori caused him to Bleed and Jiraiya has stronger attack than a regular Chidori.

I'm sure Pa's tounge, or most HM jutsu would hurt Raikage if only a little.

Anything Gamabunta uses would be incredibly effective if it hits, Toad oil from Gambunta + flames = death

I say Jiraiya actually has a chance of winning even though most people here are saying otherwise.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 25, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Only to realize he stepped into Jiraiya's barrier, and then gets digested in acid.



So after taking a 5-second dip in J-man's toad jacuzzi, Raikage rips off the old sage's mane and dries himself with it like a towel.

Raikage then proceeds to feed Jiraiya his own limbs.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 26, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> I'm curious of this, when did this happen?



One kick made a fucking tunnel through a brick wall. What is Raikage's greatest strength fleat :lamo




> Speculation.



How is it speculation, he made a tunnel with just one kick.
That one fleat outdoes any thing Raikage has shown.

If you disagree please post a scan




> Raikage is bijuu lever which> Hermit mode



So is Kisame

but 
Base Jiraiya> Bijuu level Kisame 





> Raikage with *bijuu strength* and raiton chop could go through the frog stomach.



Bolded part,lolwut since when is he stated to have bijuu level *strength*, the last time i remember Karin staled his chakra was bujuu level, 

Base Jiraiya (without killing intents) > Kn4 = Bijuus > Bijuu *levels*





> Originally posted by *Nikushimi*
> 
> So after taking a 5-second dip in J-man's toad jacuzzi, Raikage rips off the old sage's mane and dries himself with it like a towel.




No, because Raikage digested and is unable to move because of the Acid, Jiraiya proceeds to drink Raikage-soup.
:zaro




> Raikage then proceeds to feed Jiraiya his own limbs.




Dude that is just sick. 



Its sad to see Itachitard resort such crude tactics to make Jiraiya look bad just so that the Raikage looks good, hence making Itachi looks good. You people dissappoint me.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> No, because Raikage digested and is unable to move because of the Acid, Jiraiya proceeds to drink Raikage-soup.
> :zaro



Raikage has full-body Chidori-level durability, the acid won't do shit except give him him a nice hot dip before he puts Jiraiya through the wood chipper.



> Dude that is just sick.







> Its sad to see Itachitard resort such crude tactics to make Jiraiya look bad just so that the Raikage looks good, hence making Itachi looks good. You people dissappoint me.



You're thinking too much into it.

This isn't about Itachi (for once).

This about Raikage and the unholy merciless Liger Bombing he would meet out unto the poor unsuspecting puddle of flesh and bone fragments that was once Jiraiya.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 26, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Raikage has full-body Chidori-level durability, the acid won't do shit except give him him a nice hot dip before he puts Jiraiya through the wood chipper.




Chidori is a piercing attack, and it is his own element. 


Acid is not like chidori, raikage can't do any thing while drowning in the acid, the only reason Pain was able to hit Jiraiya was because of the chakra extending rod. Raikage has nothing like that. 



Rikiton chakra doesn't protect you from being dissolved by acid, as even though you have armor Raikage is still made of the same materials a human is made of, Hence acid will dissolve with the raikage's body. And he is completely at Jiraiya's mercy. Acid is not like lava, if you can be reacted it will react with you. Raikage is not made of gold  or platinum. He will still be effected by the Acid.




> Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison (結界・蝦蟇瓢牢, Kekkai: Gama Hyourou)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
> User: Jiraiya
> 
> ...



Kills Jiraiya this match ends in a draw. Raikage can escape from the barrier space, he dies from starvation.



> After summoning a "Gourd Toad" (瓢箪蝦蟇, Hyoutan Gama) from Mt. Myouboku, one drags the target into its stomach. There exists a "barrier space" that is isolated from the outside world. It is also possible to *push the target *into *an acid lake and dissolve them.*



So the Target is PUSHED back, Raikage can't attack Jiraiya in the Barrier while he is pushed back and he has He has no non-physical attacks. Rikiton chakra doesn't protect you from being dissolved by acid, as even though you have armor Raikage is still made of the same materials a human is made of, Hence acid will dissolve with the raikage's body. And he is completely at Jiraiya's mercy. 




> [picture of the inside of the Gourd Toad]
> →Within the toad's stomach, silence rules. However, the lake is filled with a powerful acid!!
> 
> ↓At the contractor's command, it is possible to enter or exit in an instant.
> [picture of Jiraiya exiting the Gourd Toad]



Raikage-soup anyone 




> You're thinking too much into it.
> 
> This isn't about Itachi (for once).
> 
> This about Raikage and the unholy merciless Liger Bombing he would meet out unto the poor unsuspecting puddle of flesh and bone fragments that was once Jiraiya.





Sadly Raikage Gets digested by Acid, weather by frog stomach binding, or by Toud gourd barrier. He is not going to beat Jiraiya.



I have to go sleep, its 2am in my country, I will refute any thing you throw at me later tommoro.





And you are quite the comedian Nikushimi!


----------



## Ra (Sep 26, 2009)

> One kick made a fucking tunnel through a brick wall. What is Raikage's greatest strength fleat :lamo



How do you know that was a kick? 



> How is it speculation, he made a tunnel with just one kick.
> That one fleat outdoes any thing Raikage has shown.
> 
> If you disagree please post a scan



Again how do you know that was a kick, it wasn't shown how he blew the summon back.



> So is Kisame
> 
> but
> Base Jiraiya> Bijuu level Kisame



Bullshit, he stated losing to jiraiya pre-skip, which a three yr time skip, granted he has three yrs to improve.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 26, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> How do you know that was a kick?



His feat was moving, and what do you want Kick,punch or a body charge. note: that a kick is the strongest attack a human can pull off, Hence punching or Body charging the summon will seem more impressive  





> Again how do you know that was a kick, it wasn't shown how he blew the summon back.




So genius how did he blow the summon back and create a tunnel, 






> Bullshit, he stated losing to jiraiya pre-skip, which a three yr time skip, granted he has three yrs to improve.




An so might have Jiraiya  can you poove me wrong on that, considering he taught Naruto he might have also improved.


Terrible argument.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 26, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> How do you know that was a kick?
> 
> 
> 
> Again how do you know that was a kick, it wasn't shown how he blew the summon back.


If it was a jutsu it would have been highlighted in the manga(every other jutsu in that fight wa) or it would have appeared in the databook


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 26, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Raikage has full-body Chidori-level durability, the acid won't do shit except give him him a nice hot dip before he puts Jiraiya through the wood chipper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Raiton armor wont protect against acid, it would just heat it up....


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Only to realize he stepped into Jiraiya's barrier, and then gets digested in acid.



You mean the barrier which animal realm almost solo'd him in ? 

Changing the location won't extend Jiraiya's life span.

And Raikage will tank acid btw, with ease.


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## Ra (Sep 26, 2009)

> His feat was moving, and what do you want Kick,punch or a body charge. note: that a kick is the strongest attack a human can pull off, Hence punching or Body charging the summon will seem more impressive



What if it was ninjutsu? 

Stop speculating.



> So genius how did he blow the summon back and create a tunnel,



By something that wasn't shown in the manga other than your speculating conclusion of a kick. It could have been ninjutsu for all we know 



> An so might have Jiraiya  can you poove me wrong on that, considering he taught Naruto he might have also improved.
> 
> 
> Terrible argument.



No terrible argument, the speed of improvement could vastly surpass others. Duhhhh 

Terrible rebuttal.


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## Soul (Sep 26, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Raiton armor wont protect against acid, it would just heat it up....



Why would a Raiton heat acid?


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## Sadgoob (Sep 26, 2009)

You know fans are desperate when they argue that a barrier solos Raikage


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## hmph (Sep 26, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Why would a Raiton heat acid?



Because lightning is hot.



Illusory said:


> You know fans are desperate when they argue that a barrier solos Raikage



I find it a perfectly logical counter to an argument of speedblitz.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 26, 2009)

Logical in the same that saying Itachi's exploding clone would be set up before a speed blitz and kill the Raikage. Point A is that Jiraiya doesn't put the barrier up quickly enough. Point B is that the barrier isn't even going to tickle the Raikage.


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## hmph (Sep 26, 2009)

I was referencing the fact that they are bothed based in the same logical fallacy, a no limits fallacy.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 26, 2009)

They both have limit and they both have feats. According to feats, the Raikage successfully blitzing Jiraiya are infinitely more likely than Jiraiya's barrier turning the Raikage in to goop. Of course this is my opinion and I don't believe it would be that easy for either contender although I do believe Raikage has the edge.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 26, 2009)

Like how he speed blitzed Sasuke......oh wait. 



Or how Suigetshu or Juugo was able to stop his speed blitz.....oh wait. 






GrandKitaro777 said:


> What if it was ninjutsu?
> 
> Stop speculating.
> 
> ...




So he did destroy a giant summon in one hit weather it was ninjutsu or Taijutsu he destroyed the summon in one hit. 

So what do you think it was I want to hear your argument 




> No terrible argument, the speed of improvement could vastly surpass others. Duhhhh
> 
> Terrible rebuttal.




Who are you talking about I think you forgot that we were talking about bijuu level Kisame being weaker than Jiraiya. If you are talking about his speed, he is slower than Jiraiya who has 4.5 speed in contrast to 4 in speed.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Like how he speed blitzed Sasuke......oh wait



Oh, wait, you answer this in a moment. He did.




> Or how Suigetshu or Juugo was able to stop his speed blitz.....oh wait.



Oh, wait, Kakashi doesn't have CS2 arms or arms that be torn off & reformed.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 27, 2009)

Lol @ speedblitzing 'arguments' 

Speed has NEVER been a deciding factor in combat between two ninja of similar level 

We'll see the death of speedblitzing arguments after Kisame will do quite well in his battle against KillerBee,even though KillerBee is supposed to be much faster


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Sep 27, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Oh, wait, you answer this in a moment. He did.




What where, please manga page please.



> Oh, wait, Kakashi doesn't have CS2 arms or arms that be torn off & reformed.




Firstly where the hell did kakashi come from, and Jiraiya can make his hair as hard as steel > Juugo flesh, and can easily immobilise  the Raikage with it.


----------



## Nikushimi (Sep 27, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Chidori is a piercing attack, and it is his own element.
> 
> 
> Acid is not like chidori, raikage can't do any thing while drowning in the acid, the only reason Pain was able to hit Jiraiya was because of the chakra extending rod. Raikage has nothing like that.



Why can't he just swim in it? Are you saying the Raikage can't swim because he's Black?! 

Being covered in something that can tank Chidori means that the acid isn't even going to touch him. It's going to be blocked by the Raiton chakra, which even if it can dissolve, will keep flowing around Raikage endlessly, because his chakra quantity is Bijuu-level. So he could just take a quick dip in it, then swim to Jiraiya and Liger Bomb him @ Mach 20 into his own acid bath.



> Rikiton chakra doesn't protect you from being dissolved by acid, as even though you have armor Raikage is still made of the same materials a human is made of, Hence acid will dissolve with the raikage's body. And he is completely at Jiraiya's mercy. Acid is not like lava, if you can be reacted it will react with you. Raikage is not made of gold  or platinum. He will still be effected by the Acid.



The Raiton armor protects him. He's encased in a layer of chakra that is powerful enough to tank Chidori. The acid will not reach him. Hell, it might evaporate upon having the current of his Raiton armor pass through it.



> Kills Jiraiya this match ends in a draw. Raikage can escape from the barrier space, he dies from starvation.



That's not a draw, that's Raikage curbing Jiraiya and then dying from something else. Might as well be old age; it's a natural cause of death, not directly resultant of battle.



> So the Target is PUSHED back, Raikage can't attack Jiraiya in the Barrier while he is pushed back and he has He has no non-physical attacks. Rikiton chakra doesn't protect you from being dissolved by acid, as even though you have armor Raikage is still made of the same materials a human is made of, Hence acid will dissolve with the raikage's body. And he is completely at Jiraiya's mercy.



The Raiton armor will protect him from the acid and he will pwn Jiraiya with a Liger Bomb at Mach 20.



> Raikage-soup anyone



Less of a "soup", more of a "lukewarm bath."



> Sadly Raikage Gets digested by Acid, weather by frog stomach binding, or by Toud gourd barrier. He is not going to beat Jiraiya.



His Chidori-level Raiton armor will protect him and he will defeat Jiraiya with a Liger Bomb at Mach 20.



> I have to go sleep, its 2am in my country, I will refute any thing you throw at me later tommoro.



Try not to have any nightmares about Raikage Liger Bombing you. 



> And you are quite the comedian Nikushimi!



Yes, yes I am.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Lol @ speedblitzing 'arguments'
> 
> *Speed has NEVER been a deciding factor in combat between two ninja of similar level *



6 gated Gai vs Shouten Kisame
and Raikage vs Sasuke disagree


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 27, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 6 gated Gai vs Shouten Kisame


So you consider 30% Kisame as being in the same level as 6 gates Gai? 
Base Gai and 30% Kisame are about the same level,and as we saw Base Gai's superior speed wasn't worth shit.
My point still stands...


Grimmjowsensei said:


> and Raikage vs Sasuke disagree


Didn't Sasuke win that fight?  He would have been shish kebab if Gaara didn't stop his legdrop at Mach 17301

So Raikage can have a speed of Mach 59061 for all I care,it isn't worth shit unless he can back it up with something more than prowrestling moves 

Raikage's raiton armor was pierced by chidori,if he runs into Chou Odama Rasengan at Mach 18743 he'll be grinded into dust


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 27, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Why can't he just swim in it? Are you saying the Raikage can't swim because he's Black?!
> 
> Being covered in something that can tank Chidori means that the acid isn't even going to touch him. It's going to be blocked by the Raiton chakra, which even if it can dissolve, will keep flowing around Raikage endlessly, because his chakra quantity is Bijuu-level. So he could just take a quick dip in it, then swim to Jiraiya and Liger Bomb him @ Mach 20 into his own acid bath.




HE tanked chidori because it was his own element, against katons it didn't do anything, and even then Chidori effected him. 


You do realize what acid does don't you. It corodes your body regardless of the Rikiton shroud which might make the acid stronger, increase in ionised hydrogen. And you do realize he still has to breathe the fumes could easily poison him.

Btw he can't swim as



> It is also possible to push the target into *an acid lake and dissolve them.*




Jiraiya can make the area push him back.





> The Raiton armor protects him. He's encased in a layer of chakra that is powerful enough to tank Chidori. The acid will not reach him. Hell, it might evaporate upon having the current of his Raiton armor pass through it.




His armor does not produce heat, for some wierd reason or else suigetshu would have been steaming.


 And he is still breathing if it does produce heat the acid evaporates entering into his blood stream where it becomes aqueous again corroding him from the inside with poisonous acidic fumes. 


Rikiton might just make him worse as the H+ ions will dissoaciate more easily due to the rikiton chakra corroding him more faster.


I know I can manipulate the laws of science and kishi's logic to suit my needs too. unlike you!






> That's not a draw, that's Raikage curbing Jiraiya and then dying from something else. Might as well be old age; it's a natural cause of death, not directly resultant of battle.



If he dies from starvation it is a draw as it is a direct cause of Jiraiya's attack. He can't escape and dies a lonely death in the inescapable barrier space.





> The Raiton armor will protect him from the acid and he will pwn Jiraiya with a Liger Bomb at Mach 20.




Only to get wild lion's maned at Mach 50 or push back before he could each Jiraiya.

Raikage looses! Why does Raikage lose?...... because he lacks...... brains and ranged jutsu! 



> Less of a "soup", more of a "lukewarm bath."



No, a Raikage soup is up for breakfast today Niku.

wanna try some 




> His Chidori-level Raiton armor will protect him and he will defeat Jiraiya with a Liger Bomb at Mach 20.


nope


Raikage looses! Why does Raikage lose?...... because.... he lacks...... brains and ranged jutsu! 




> Try not to have any nightmares about Raikage Liger Bombing you.




No I saw him drowning in Acid by Jiraiya and getting Amaterasued by Itachi.


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## Vergil642 (Sep 27, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> HE tanked chidori because it was his own element, against katons it didn't do anything, and even then Chidori effected him.



I'm not really following your train of thought here. Only Fuuton and Doton would have any different effect hitting his Raiton Shroud. Fuutons would go through easier and Dotons would have a harder time going through.

You need something with the piercing/destructive quality of Chidori to scratch Raikage through his Raiton Shroud. Short of Rasengan, Jiraiya's got nothing that'll work.



> You do realize what acid does don't you. It corodes your body regardless of the Rikiton shroud which might make the acid stronger, increase in ionised hydrogen. And you do realize he still has to breathe the fumes could easily poison him.
> 
> Btw he can't swim as
> 
> ...



I don't think you understand. The Raiton Shroud effectively acts as a solid barrier, fucking up anything that touches it. The acid will have to get through that first, and it hasn't shown the capability to do that.

Incidentally, what are you smoking to come to the conclusion Jiraiya can make the area push people around? The thing only says you can push people into the acid. If anything that means Jiraiya can do it, it doesn't even begin to imply the environment itself starts to shove you around.



> His armor does not produce heat, for some wierd reason or else suigetshu would have been steaming.



Fair point.



> And he is still breathing if it does produce heat the acid evaporates entering into his blood stream where it becomes aqueous again corroding him from the inside with poisonous acidic fumes.



Show me the acid giving off fumes please.



> Rikiton might just make him worse as the H+ ions will dissoaciate more easily due to the rikiton chakra corroding him more faster.
> 
> 
> I know I can manipulate the laws of science and kishi's logic to suit my needs too. unlike you!



Congrats, your actions just resulted in the deaths of a number of catgirls 



> If he dies from starvation it is a draw as it is a direct cause of Jiraiya's attack. He can't escape and dies a lonely death in the inescapable barrier space.



If he died of starvation in there he'd still have won the battle as Jiraiya would be dead.



> Only to get wild lion's maned at Mach 50 or push back before he could each Jiraiya.
> 
> Raikage looses! Why does Raikage lose?...... because he lacks...... brains and ranged jutsu!



The difference being we know Raikage moves at speeds Sasuke's Sharingan can't keep up with.  Ranjishigami no Jutsu was something easily Kawarimi'd out of by Animal Realm.

Raikage'd cockslash through that shit and pimp hand Jiraiya in half.



> nope
> 
> 
> Raikage looses! Why does Raikage lose?...... because.... he lacks...... brains and ranged jutsu!



Once Raikage pulls out a full power Raiton Shroud he's going to blitz Jiraiya. One hit from him=dead Jiraiya.

He's taking this with one blow.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 27, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Logical in the same that saying Itachi's exploding clone would be set up before a speed blitz and kill the Raikage. Point A is that Jiraiya doesn't put the barrier up quickly enough. Point B is that the barrier isn't even going to tickle the Raikage.



Jiraiyas barrier will kill raikage, the only reason he tanked chidori is because its made of electricity so it most likly just combined with his armor on contact, lightning would only make acid hot.....you provide false logic, its like me saying naruto tanked a black rod because of the kyuubi, so he could tank susanoo's sword. Its just a foolish acusation with no basis. And jiraiya has sasukes speed which kept up with raikage pretty decently with 50+ years more experience. Raikage also hasnt displayed any distance speed (not saying he doesnt have it but he has no feats beyond reflexes and a short sunshin).


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 27, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Why would a Raiton heat acid?



Because electricity heats things and acid has an electrical resistance expending voltage into the acid (resistance converts voltage to heat energy), heating it (which wouldnt do much to help the acids kill power as heat has nothing to do with it im just saying it wouldn't protect).


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 27, 2009)

Lets clear the air once and for all,since reading comprehension isn't among the many talents Uchiha tards have.

*SASUKE CAN KEEP UP JUST FINE WITH RAIKAGE* as shown here: I lol'd     . 
He not only manages to dodge Raikage's punch at Mach whatever,but he hits Raikage with Chidori.

What Sasuke cannot do is keep up with Raikage *when he is attempting to burn him with Amaterasu*.Get it?We know Amaterasu requires concentration and puts a huge strain on the eye.Even more,the black flames block Sasuke's field of vision.

So yeah,the speedblitzing argument is pretty much retarded,since SM Jiraiya should be faster than Sasuke.

So lets sum it up:
If Raikage gets in close,Jiraiya can tank his blows(he beat KN4 in base,wasn't even scratched by the huge bull summon),has the type of firepower that kills boss summons in one hit,has Chou Odama Rasengan which can grind Raikage into dust,has Ni Dai Sennin's tongues which will slice him into ribbbons,and has a higher speed than Sasuke,has boss summons which can match the Shukaku in physical strength and can tank at least 1 bijuu powered Fuuton blast,and alot of other tricks.

Raikage has:speed,fast reflexes,punches and kicks,grappling moves than he'll never get to use,an armor which can't tank anything more than a Chidori,and a permanent stupid constipated expression on his face.

To quote Uchihatards,"Jiraiya takes this with 1 blow"


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## Vergil642 (Sep 27, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Lets clear the air once and for all,since reading comprehension isn't among the many talents Uchiha tards have.
> 
> *SASUKE CAN KEEP UP JUST FINE WITH RAIKAGE* as shown here: To Sasuke fans
> He not only manages to dodge Raikage's punch at Mach whatever,but he hits Raikage with Chidori.
> ...



Raikage was at first unable to blitz Sasuke because he wasn't using the full power of his Raiton Shroud. When he was, his hair got a little spikey and at that point he was able to literally move faster than Sasuke could see.

Sasuke's reactions>=HM Jiraiya's reactions, and that's only by powerscaling Jiraiya's reactions up from the Tier 4.5 speed he had. There's no reason to believe Jiraiya's going to keep up better than Sasuke.



> So lets sum it up:
> If Raikage gets in close,Jiraiya can tank his blows(he beat KN4 in base,wasn't even scratched by the huge bull summon),has the type of firepower that kills boss summons in one hit,has Chou Odama Rasengan which can grind Raikage into dust,has Ni Dai Sennin's tongues which will slice him into ribbbons,and has a higher speed than Sasuke,has boss summons which can match the Shukaku in physical strength and can tank at least 1 bijuu powered Fuuton blast,and alot of other tricks.



Jiraiya was nearly killed by KN4 in Base (we assume he was in base form) and only survived thanks to that handy dandy sealing jutsu. The jutsu you list are all useless unless they can hit, and Jiraiya and Ni Dai Sennin don't have the reflexes to do so. You have no proof he's faster than Sasuke beyond powerscaling, and Raikage can smash through Susanoo's ribs; he's going to piledrive his way through any boss summon's skull in the same way any other top tier strength character will. Except his attacks will hit harder as he's got a Raiton Shroud enhancing his power.



> Raikage has:speed,fast reflexes,punches and kicks,grappling moves than he'll never get to use,an armor which can't tank anything more than a Chidori,and a permanent stupid constipated expression on his face.
> 
> To quote Uchihatards,"Jiraiya takes this with 1 blow"



Wait, an armour that can't tank anything more than a Chidori?

Are you...are you seriously trying to argue that isn't an amazing feat? Made even more crazy when he revealed he could make his Raiton armour even more powerful?

To quote Grimm:


*Spoiler*: __ 








That one feat means Jiraiya's going to need his Sage Chakra enhanced giant Rasengan to hurt Raikage. Everything else is going to just bounce off him and he's going to then tear Jiraiya a new asshole.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> So you consider 30% Kisame as being in the same level as 6 gates Gai?
> Base Gai and 30% Kisame are about the same level,and as we saw Base Gai's superior speed wasn't worth shit.
> My point still stands...



Shouten Kisame literally shat on Base Gai, they aren't even close.

Eventhough 6 gated Gai is stronger than Shoten Kisame, there isn't a huge gap in overall, its just the speed difference and that is what caused the fight to end so abruptly.

So yeah, that fight ended via speed blitz.



> Didn't Sasuke win that fight?  He would have been shish kebab if Gaara didn't stop his legdrop at Mach 17301
> 
> So Raikage can have a speed of Mach 59061 for all I care,it isn't worth shit unless he can back it up with something more than prowrestling moves



Raikage moved behind Sasuke during combat, by blitzing him, he will do the same to Jiraiya aswell, and given Jiraiya doesn't have amaterasu wrapped up Susano'o to defend himself(or any defense worthy of mentioning) he will die as a result.




> Raikage's raiton armor was pierced by chidori,if he runs into Chou Odama Rasengan at Mach 18743 he'll be grinded into dust



But what if he runs behind Jiraiya at mach 300 and liger bombs him to oblivion? (Which he can do btw, thats the whole point of speed blitz)


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 27, 2009)

Jiraiya's durability increases with HM, I'm not positive that Raikage will instant kill him as you say Grimm. And it's still debatable, if Raikage's speed increase is greater than the speed increase invoked through HM for Jiraiya. We'll have to see how Sasuke would fair against Sage Naruto. I'm almost positive that their strength is probably in the same tier or if not on the same level either, both of them could crush summons.


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## KidQuick (Sep 27, 2009)

The battle begins with Raikage charging his Raiton Shroud and rushing right into hand to hand combat with Jiraiya, who uses some basic taijutsu to parry his massive fists. Raikage, hops back after having his first few blows parried like childsplay and glares at Jiraiya and shouts 

"Don't think that will be fast enough!" 

At which point his shroud glows even brighter and Raikage moves at his top speed - a change Jiraiya could not anticipate nor adjust his eyes to - and scores a massive hit to the gut - sending Jiraiya flying into a nearby quarry of rocks, incidentally blowing them to smithereens.

Typical manga cloud of dust rises from the rubble and a natural pause in the battle as Raikage taunts him 

"That was it? The legendary senin Jiraiya goes down in one punch? Get up you Konoha slob! I've got more beat-down in store for you!"

From the rubble a groan followed by Jiraiya's usual light-hearted banter:

"Ay-ay-ay! That hurt! I guess this is no time to be taking it easy. Gyahaha! (emerges from rubble, makes a hand seal and appears visibly altered) Don't pretend that you even know about me! I, The legendary frog hermit, Jiraiya will stop you! Behold! (doing Ginyu squad poses) My ultra-amazing, soon-to-be famous-around-the-world style, Hermit Sage Mode!  Ta-da! hohoho. What do you think, huh? Scary, right, right?"

Raikage's making one of _those_ manga faces  "DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME!" He fires off a massive lightning katon, which Jiraiya protects himself from using his hair armor. Raikage rushes in for more hand to hand fighting.


While launching a flurry of attacks, Raikage who can now see Jiraiya in hermit mode up close, makes a few snide comments: 
"So this is the true form of you Konoha scum. You really are disgusting to look at!"

Jiraiya, who is in hermit mode - albeit not his final mode with ma and pa - hangs tough with Raikage's speed, 'sensing' out his attacks in order to avoid them. As the Raikage's misses smash up the ground and create micro tremors each time Jman dodges, her thinks, "Even in hermit mode I can't take many of those fists. So Jiraiya maneuvers about,  taking lightning damage here and there, *barely* escaping with his head on. Once he feels he has a comfortable grasp on Raikage's brute strength and his wild, massive swings, Jiraiya decides this is has gone on long enough. 

While reluctantly grappling with Raikage, whose timing is getting closer and closer to clobbering Jiraiya's brains out, Jiraiya uses his fastest attack - the prickly lion hair assault to push Raikage back, who just barely dodges getting porcupined, himself. In rapidfire-succession, Jiraiya spews a massive wave of Frog oil at Raikage and shoots off a Massive Fire Katon. Raikage is in the middle of the blast, so he's pushed back even more but his lightning reiatsu armor minimizes most of the damage. While the frogfireball dies down, Jiraiya decides that it's time for _that_ Frog-intestine (or was it frog-stomach?) Jutsu. He makes the necessary hand seals and rushes toward Raikage in the middle of the smoke left from the fireball, and grabs him by both arms with the intention of immobilizing him. At which point, Raikage deftly maneuvers himself into a wrestling-style choke hold on Jiraiya, charging lightning all through arm. Again Jiraiya protects himself with a lightning quick Hair armor around his neck.

Raikage says
"Tch! I'm not done yet!" 

He fluidly moves into position for his Raiga bomb, picks up and slams Jiraiya down into...a soft mushy surface?

Everything around Raikage's and Jiraiya begins to distort and turn pink becomes very insoluble and sticky. Raikage's feet begin to sink into the ground. He says, "What the?"

"Oyoyoy! That would have been the end of me! Haha! So, so, what do you think of my frog jutsu?! It's real nice, right?" Jiraiya rises effortlessly up and pushes the struggling Raikage into the wall, where his arms begin to sink in as well.

As he sinks in the the muck, Jiraiya walks over and turns him into a frog.

Teehee!


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 28, 2009)

KidQuick said:


> The battle begins with Raikage charging his Raiton Shroud and rushing right into hand to hand combat with Jiraiya, who uses some basic taijutsu to parry his massive fists. Raikage, hops back after having his first few blows parried like childsplay and glares at Jiraiya and shouts
> 
> "Don't think that will be fast enough!"
> 
> ...




Kid you should take Kishimoto's place.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 28, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Jiraiya's durability increases with HM, I'm not positive that Raikage will instant kill him as you say Grimm. And it's still debatable, if Raikage's speed increase is greater than the speed increase invoked through HM for Jiraiya. We'll have to see how Sasuke would fair against Sage Naruto. I'm almost positive that their strength is probably in the same tier or if not on the same level either, both of them could crush summons.



We don't have any evidence on to what extend he gets a boost to his durability.

But we know that Raikage punched a hole through Juugo's arms and his chest, that is like 3 layers of hardened CS2 flesh(which can stop Suigetsu's sword with ease in its partial transformed state). He also broke through gimped Susano'o's ribs. 

I'd like to see some evidence of Jiraiya's SM durability before I can beleive that he'd be able to withstand such a blows. 

As things stand now, he will get insta killed by one move from Raikage.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 28, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We don't have any evidence on to what extend he gets a boost to his durability.
> 
> But we know that Raikage punched a hole through Juugo's arms and his chest, that is like 3 layers of hardened CS2 flesh(which can stop Suigetsu's sword with ease in its partial transformed state). He also broke through gimped Susano'o's ribs.
> 
> ...



well you have to remember jiraiya did take a kn4 blast to his chest and lived where that would kill most shinobi.

Also took a punch from tsunade and was still fighting with one arm vs pein. Also took out a body to boot. 

Jiraiya is no push over when it comes to durability by normal means but he is not on par with oro and such when it comes to insane regeneration jutsus.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 28, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> well you have to remember jiraiya did take a kn4 blast to his chest and lived where that would kill most shinobi.
> 
> Also took a punch from tsunade and was still fighting with one arm vs pein. Also took out a body to boot.
> 
> Jiraiya is no push over when it comes to durability by normal means but he is not on par with oro and such when it comes to insane regeneration jutsus.



There is no significant information that says that Jiraiya took a KN4 Chakra blast to the stomach. No, I'm more inclined to believe that it was a slash from the KN4 claws.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 28, 2009)

But he did take an Asura realm rocket to the head for his master, after getting stabbed mulitple times in vital organs. And still was alive to talk about his nest book, He fucking willed himself back to live  after his heart stopped beating.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 28, 2009)

TheGreen1 said:


> There is no significant information that says that Jiraiya took a KN4 Chakra blast to the stomach. No, I'm more inclined to believe that it was a slash from the KN4 claws.



I thought it said he took a blast from kn4. Unless this was filler I can't remember.


I will have to go back and recheck later. Impossible to check while on iPhone, takes so long


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 28, 2009)

*Re: Jiraiya vs. Raikage*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> We don't have any evidence on to what extend he gets a boost to his durability.
> 
> But we know that Raikage punched a hole through Juugo's arms and his chest, that is like 3 layers of hardened CS2 flesh(which can stop Suigetsu's sword with ease in its partial transformed state). He also broke through gimped Susano'o's ribs.
> 
> ...


If you re-read the Pain vs. Jiraiya fight, you'll see the durability  displayed by Jiraiya, as I'm sure you'll see in the responses above my mine have mentioned as well. Furthermore, we also saw what happened to Naruto when he fell off the rocks during his training.

Both of their respective strengths are off the charts, if anything Jiraiya's demonstration of his strength was witnessed as he was chucking summons across bare-handed. I don't really give him credit for breaking through Susano'o because it really was incomplete and partially finished. 

Raikage's speed and strength are the only aspects of his character that are  going to cause problems for Jiraiya. However, I fail to see how this will be an instant stomp as you mentioned, simply overrating Raikage's abilities aren't going to be enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> If you re-read the Pain vs. Jiraiya fight, you'll see the durability  displayed by Jiraiya, as I'm sure you'll see in the responses above my mine have mentioned as well. Furthermore, we also saw what happened to Naruto when he fell off the rocks during his training.
> 
> Both of their respective strengths are off the charts, if anything Jiraiya's demonstration of his strength was witnessed as he was chucking summons across bare-handed. I don't really give him credit for breaking through Susano'o because it really was incomplete and partially finished.




What durability feats ? Getting his arm torn off with a single blow ? 
Getting impaled by a sharp stick wielded by animal realm(who has 0 strength feats) ?

Fall damage is just some minor feat imo, Deidara and Sasuke fell from a higher height, nothing happened to them either. Naruto only said "this didn't hurt", he didn't expect to get killed or anything.



> Raikage's speed and strength are the only aspects of his character that are  going to cause problems for Jiraiya. However, I fail to see how this will be an instant stomp as you mentioned, simply overrating Raikage's abilities aren't going to be enough.



Yes, Raikage's speed, faster than 3 tomoe sharingan can follow, is enough to blitz Jiraiya and given Jiraiya isn't more durable than CS2 Juugo, Raikage's strength is enough to kill him in one blow.

I see no overrating here, its just the plain truth.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 29, 2009)

Jiraiya's hair > cs2 Juugo's flesh


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## Yoko (Sep 29, 2009)

Is Sasuke's durability better than Jiraiya's in Sage Mode? Because Sasuke took this:

What the fuck Nicklas?

...and survived.  It looks like it should have broke his neck.  Though a lot of PNJ was involved in that fight.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 29, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What durability feats ? Getting his arm torn off with a single blow ?
> Getting impaled by a sharp stick wielded by animal realm(who has 0 strength feats) ?
> 
> Fall damage is just some minor feat imo, Deidara and Sasuke fell from a higher height, nothing happened to them either. Naruto only said "this didn't hurt", he didn't expect to get killed or anything.
> ...



Jiraiya is in the same speed teir and has much more jutsu and experience than sasuke, hes not getting hit by raikage, hes most likly going to fight using dotons to hide while thinking up a strat. Since jiraiya is a counterfighter much like itachi, this makes his fighting style a perfect counter for raikages ultimate rush-in-kill style.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 29, 2009)

I thought it said raikages reaction speed was on par with the fouths not his speed? Haven't gone back to check the actual scan yet.

You also have to remember the sharingan can only help so much in prodicting attacks. It's the users ability to react fast enough.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 29, 2009)

And Susuke was just standing still in Susanoo, like an Idiot he didn't even try to move.


Gaara was able to react to Raikage's drop kick, and Gaara is one of the Slowest Ninja's in thins manga.


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## Black Sabbath II (Sep 29, 2009)

Raikage is indeed a beast, but Jiraiya takes this one. Strength and speed will get you no where if frog song is activated. This is a complete miss-match for Raikage.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 29, 2009)

This is how I see it....

Both itachi and jiraiya are slightly stronger then raikage. Raikage is a one trick pony who excells at taijutsu/power however this is his downfall agaiant opponents like itachi and jiraiya. At this level of shinobi it's going to take a variety of techniques in misc jutsu classes to excell. 

Until we see any more ninjutsu or various other jutsus from raikage I don't see him beating the likes of jiraiya or itachi

raikage may be a beast agaiant the sharingan however you must remember itachi and sasuke fight entirely differently


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Jiraiya vs. Raikage*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What durability feats ? Getting his arm torn off with a single blow ? Getting impaled by a sharp stick wielded by animal realm(who has 0 strength feats) ?


He was able to continue for an extended period of time after losing his arm. Granted he lost his arm to a black chakra rod, there is no real evidence to substantiate that Raikage wouldn't be cut in the same manner.

Furthermore, most of what you listed as Raikage's durability is mostly his strength. He was able to break through an incomplete Susano'o, which Jiraiya most probably could replicate in Sage Mode. 

Raikage's speed was what saved him from Juugo's Multi-Cannon Blast and him piercing Juugo's CS2 skin would be in most cases be replicated by Jiraya while using sage chakra.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fall damage is just some minor feat imo, Deidara and Sasuke fell from a higher height, nothing happened to them either. Naruto only said "this didn't hurt", he didn't expect to get killed or anything.


It's enough to state that Jiraiya's durability is increased while he is in HM. To what extent we can extrapolate partially from Naruto and/or substitute in from the Jiraiya vs. Pain.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, Raikage's speed, faster than 3 tomoe sharingan can follow, is enough to blitz Jiraiya and given Jiraiya isn't more durable than CS2 Juugo, Raikage's strength is enough to kill him in one blow.


Umm...what manga do you read? It wasn't faster than the 3 tomoe sharingan, Sasuke was able dodge his attacks because of the sharingan.


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## Rakiyo (Sep 29, 2009)

This is a pretty easy one to call if ya ask me

Base Jiraiya VS Raikage = Rape Stomp

Now if we bring an already HM Jiraiya into this i still see it going to Raikages favor. In terms of taijutsu we know whose the better their so i feel i dont even need to explain this. In terms of Ninjutsu Jiraiya has a far varied array to choose from compaired to Raikage but i fail to believe that he would be able to hit him or do significant damage to him. In terms of Genjutsu it seems Raikage is pretty much invunerable to them so i doubt frog song will play any real role in their battle, With the help of ma and pa im sure he could hold him off for a bit but as for winning i don't see it.


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## Black Sabbath II (Sep 29, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> He was able to continue for an extended period of time after losing his arm. Granted he lost his arm to a black chakra rod, there is no real evidence to substantiate that Raikage wouldn't be cut in the same manner.
> 
> Furthermore, most of what you listed as Raikage's durability is mostly his strength. He was able to break through an incomplete Susano'o, which Jiraiya most probably could replicate in Sage Mode.
> 
> ...



Actually, didn't Sasuke dodge Raikage's attack before he used his full speed? I think that if Raikage had gone full power from the start he could have easily dodged that Chidori. But this isn't about Sasuke and Raikage.

Raikage still takes this, only because of the fact that he has frog song.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 29, 2009)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Actually, didn't Sasuke dodge Raikage's attack before he used his full speed? I think that if Raikage had gone full power from the start he could have easily dodged that Chidori. But this isn't about Sasuke and Raikage.
> 
> Raikage still takes this, only because of the fact that he has frog song.


Yeah, Sasuke out-maneuvered Raikage when he was coming at him with his elbow. And I don't think that Raikage was holding back, simply because he was bloodlusted from the get-go.


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## Axekick (Sep 30, 2009)

In terms of raw destructive power these two are pretty close imo.  I just don't see a way Jiraiya could cope with Raikage's speed.  

Like others have pointed out, he's pretty much the fastest person in the manga atm, and if Sasuke couldn't even keep up with his eyes I don't see HM Jiraiya doing it either.  I say Raikage takes this with moderate difficulty.    

Technically, I guess he could "speed blitz" him for the insta-gib, but there's no way a major fight between characters of this caliber would ever be written like that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 30, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> He was able to continue for an extended period of time after losing his arm. Granted he lost his arm to a black chakra rod, there is no real evidence to substantiate that Raikage wouldn't be cut in the same manner.



He wouldn't. 
Raikage tanked Chidori induced Katana with his shroud and he tanked a head on full powered chidori strike with minor damage. 



> Furthermore, most of what you listed as Raikage's durability is mostly his strength. He was able to break through an incomplete Susano'o, which Jiraiya most probably could replicate in Sage Mode.


pure speculation. Jiraiya's strength feats aren't even close to raikage so he cannot break Susano'o.



> Raikage's speed was what saved him from Juugo's Multi-Cannon Blast and him piercing Juugo's CS2 skin would be in most cases be replicated by Jiraya while using sage chakra.


Jiraiya can't even pierce the skin of human durability, he cannot pierce CS2.



> It's enough to state that Jiraiya's durability is increased while he is in HM. To what extent we can extrapolate partially from Naruto and/or substitute in from the Jiraiya vs. Pain.



Yeah nothing suggests that he is on par with cs2 juugo though. So we can't claim that he can tank Raikage's blows.



> FONT=Tahoma]Umm...what manga do you read? It wasn't faster than the 3 tomoe sharingan, Sasuke was able dodge his attacks because of the sharingan.[/FONT]


Not when he amped up his raiton shroud, then he literally blitzed Sasuke.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 30, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wouldn't.
> Raikage tanked Chidori induced Katana with his shroud and he tanked a head on full powered chidori strike with minor damage.




Because the Rikiton element was absorbed, in chidori was more concentrated Hence why some effected him. Rasengan does internal damage so regardess of Rikiton armor he is going to be killed.




> pure speculation. Jiraiya's strength feats aren't even close to raikage so he cannot break Susano'o.




Excuse me! what are is Raikage's greatest strength fleats. Jiraiya sent a giant 500 tones ox summon flying in the other direction. And the force of the hit made a fucking tunnel through solid concrete. What is Raikage's strength fleat that that out shines HM Jiraiya. you are purely speculating. Show me a scan of his greatest strength fleat.



> Jiraiya can't even pierce the skin of human durability, he cannot pierce CS2.



Raikage pierced it because it acts like a chidori, Shown no strength in it, Sasuke could have accomplished that, Jiraiya or Naruto could have accomplished that with Rasengan. 



> Yeah nothing suggests that he is on par with cs2 juugo though. So we can't claim that he can tank Raikage's blows.




But his chakra hardened hair is on par with steel, and could easily block Raikage's punch, if not entangle Raikage's body while he is charging at Jiraiya. Restricting his movement.




> Not when he amped up his raiton shroud, then he literally blitzed Sasuke.




NO he didn't Sasuke reacted to Raikage, activating Amaterasu shield before Raikage struck, Sasuke didn't expect him to attack. BTW Level2 Rikiton shoud kick was slow enough for *Gaara* to *react* and * block* a few meters apart, and Gaara is one of the slowest charecters in this manga.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 30, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wouldn't. Raikage tanked Chidori induced Katana with his shroud and he tanked a head on full powered chidori strike with minor damage.


He was still punctured, my point was his durability isn't as greatly amplified as you make it sound, your simply overrating him. 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> pure speculation. Jiraiya's strength feats aren't even close to raikage so he cannot break Susano'o.


It was an incomplete Susano'o, honestly, your just overrating Raikage now. Jiraiya was able to chuck a summon halfway across a gorge, how does that not substantiate as clear evidence that his strength would crack the incomplete Susano'o that Sasuke formulated.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya can't even pierce the skin of human durability, he cannot pierce CS2.


As I remember he kicked out Human Realm's eyes with just one skirmish. A fully powered punch from HM Jiraiya in most cases would be enough to break through CS2.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah nothing suggests that he is on par with cs2 juugo though. So we can't claim that he can tank Raikage's blows.


He has sage chakra and their strength is pretty much equal. Nothing really indicates that Raikage would be able to take on Jiraiya's physical prowess in HM, with ease either. If he gets hit once, I bet his body bounce just as much as Animal or Human realms. Regarding speed, Jiraiya's in the same tier group as Sasuke and while he's in HM, his speed is amplified, I don't see how Raikage would effectively keep up with that.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not when he amped up his raiton shroud, then he literally blitzed Sasuke.


Sasuke was able to dodge his elbow while the Raikage was using his Lightning Armor. And as DariusTwinBlade stated, his speed was slow enough for Gaara to react to and prevent his assault on Sasuke.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 30, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wouldn't.
> Raikage tanked Chidori induced Katana with his shroud and he tanked a head on full powered chidori strike with minor damage.
> 
> 
> ...



Raikage doesnt have strength feats close to that giant mule being kicked by jiraiya. He never blitzd sasuke, jiraiyas attacks arent peircing they are blunt, i dont see juugo's eyes fly out of his head when he got hit from raikage even barring his shield.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 30, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Because the Rikiton element was absorbed, in chidori was more concentrated Hence why some effected him. Rasengan does internal damage so regardess of Rikiton armor he is going to be killed.



Rasengan is blunt damage, Chidori is piercing damage, just because Chidori was able to barely pierce it doesn't mean rasengan can do the same. In order to do internal damage, it first needs to bypass the shroud. Raikage would simply tank it with his chest like he tanked chidori.



> Excuse me! what are is Raikage's greatest strength fleats. Jiraiya sent a giant 500 tones ox summon flying in the other direction. And the force of the hit made a fucking tunnel through solid concrete. What is Raikage's strength fleat that that out shines HM Jiraiya. you are purely speculating. Show me a scan of his greatest strength fleat.



Look, Raikage hasn't faced a giant summon, the only common strength feat which we can compare are their punch/kick powers.
We saw how powerful Jiraiya's full powered kick is, see Animal and Human realms.
Now Raikage totally dominates Jiraiya in those areas, it isn't even debatable. Hell, Raikage dominates Naruto aswell, so Jiraiya can't even be compared.



> Raikage pierced it because it acts like a chidori, Shown no strength in it, Sasuke could have accomplished that, Jiraiya or Naruto could have accomplished that with Rasengan.



Um no. 
Raikage with a shoulder thrust shoved Juugo into a wall and knocked him out. Thats pure strength.
Raikage simply lifted Sasuke up and hit him on the floor and he formed a giant crater. Thats pure strength aswell.
look @ the diameter and depth of that crater.



> But his chakra hardened hair is on par with steel, and could easily block Raikage's punch, if not entangle Raikage's body while he is charging at Jiraiya. Restricting his movement.


Cs2 is harder than steel or at least on par, because Juugo's cs2 skin easily deflects Suigetsu's sword and Raikage tore apart 3 layers of it.
So again, Jiraiya's defenses aren't even formidable against Raikage.



> NO he didn't Sasuke reacted to Raikage, activating Amaterasu shield before Raikage struck, Sasuke didn't expect him to attack. BTW Level2 Rikiton shoud kick was slow enough for *Gaara* to *react* and * block* a few meters apart, and Gaara is one of the slowest charecters in this manga.



No he didn't, depth

Sasuke lost sight of Raikage, and Raikage appeared behind him(thats clearly a blitz) and Sasuke used Amaterasu shield as a counter measure, he didn't even see Raikage.

Gaara argument is lulz worthy, first off, Gaara could only react because it wasn't the speed of R2, it was the speed of gravity, Raikage jumped and he was intercepted while he was falling down(gravity).
Secondly, Gaara was a bystander, he wasn't fighting Raikage, he was able to see Raikage *while he wasn't moving around*.





SoLiOZuZ said:


> He was still punctured, my point was his durability isn't as greatly amplified as you make it sound, your simply overrating him.



Dude, it is great.
Chidori is probably the most powerful piercing attack and it could barely pierce Raikage, it wasn't even a serious wound.
That is some insane durability.



> It was an incomplete Susano'o, honestly, your just overrating Raikage now. Jiraiya was able to chuck a summon halfway across a gorge, how does that not substantiate as clear evidence that his strength would crack the incomplete Susano'o that Sasuke formulated.



Look, it has nothing to do with Susano'o.
We have seen Raikage's strike force on Juugo. Jiraiya's strike force isn't comparable to that, thats why it is pure speculation to suggest that Jiraiya could do the same. Based on what ?
Just because he tossed a summon back(what type of attack, we don't know), let me remind you sakura was able to do the same with a punch, doesn't mean he can break Susano'o's ribs, because there is no correlation in between.



> As I remember he kicked out Human Realm's eyes with just one skirmish. A fully powered punch from HM Jiraiya in most cases would be enough to break through CS2.


His skull was still intact and so was his brain. I mean, the dude stood up and kept fighting like a champ.
Also I am not sure whether the eyes were kicked out, I think he only got a black eye.
Regardless, Pain's durability cannot be compared to Juugo, so it isn't much relevant anyways.
Imagine what would become of a Normal shinobi without enchanced durability if he took a hit from Raikage.



> *He has sage chakra and their strength is pretty much equal. Nothing really indicates that Raikage would be able to take on Jiraiya's physical prowess in HM*, with ease either. If he gets hit once, I bet his body bounce just as much as Animal or Human realms. Regarding speed, Jiraiya's in the same tier group as Sasuke and while he's in HM, his speed is amplified, I don't see how Raikage would effectively keep up with that.



I need proof for the bold part. So far, Raikage has shown much impressive stuff than Jiraiya, It is just fallacious to assume that they are on par. Based on what evidence ?
Jiraiya is in the same tier with Sasuke, although we haven't seen base Jiraiya's speed so we don't know how fast he is or how much boost he gets to his speed with HM, because you cannot make a comparison between Base and HM.
Also, Sasuke has the sharingan that gives enhanced perception, Jiraiya does not have that.




> FONT=Tahoma]Sasuke was able to dodge his elbow while the Raikage was using his Lightning Armor. And as DariusTwinBlade stated, his speed was slow enough for Gaara to react to and prevent his assault on Sasuke.[/FONT]



Sasuke dodged R1, and he got blitzed by R2.
I refuted the Gaara argument above, and even if you assume that Gaara was able to react to R2, then it doesn't change a thing, because Raikage still blitzed Sasuke. So you can only assume that Gaara is faster than both Raikage and Sasuke which in no way contributes to your argument.




DarkRasengan said:


> Raikage doesnt have strength feats close to that giant mule being kicked by jiraiya.


Its irrelevant, because we know how powerful Jiraiya's blows are on human sized targets. And they do not compare to Raikage.



> He never blitzd sasuke,


Yes he did, read above.




> jiraiyas attacks arent peircing they are blunt,


Thats why he has less chances of hurting Raikage.



> i dont see juugo's eyes fly out of his head when he got hit from raikage even barring his shield.



Because he didn't recieve the hit on his face. Raikage's hand went through Juugo's arms and his chest. If Juugo took the hit in the face, he would have no face.


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## Vergil642 (Sep 30, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Raikage doesnt have strength feats close to that giant mule being kicked by jiraiya. He never blitzd sasuke, jiraiyas attacks arent peircing they are blunt, i dont see juugo's eyes fly out of his head when he got hit from raikage even barring his shield.



Raikage's Raiger bomb produced a crater comperable to the one Tsunade's axe kick did in part 1, and HM Jiraiya is at best as strong as Tsunade. Funny thing is, Raikage can amp his strength up by a considerable margin from that level by fully activating his Raiton Shroud. We know this because Raiger Bomb only cracked a single Susanoo rib, but when using a fully active Raiton Shroud Raikage's pimp hand smashed right through it.

Raikage would plow right through whatever defence Jiraiya has planned.

And Raikage blitzed Sasuke when he literally ran around him and backhanded through Susanoo while Sasuke was still trying to turn his head to the left, attempting to follow him with his eyes. This speed feat>every other one in the manga. HM Jiraiya getting blitzed is a very strong possibility.

And Raikage only smashed Juugo's body up when not fighting at full power.


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## hmph (Sep 30, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> *Raikage's Raiger bomb produced a crater comperable to the one Tsunade's axe kick did in part 1*, and HM Jiraiya is at best as strong as Tsunade. Funny thing is, Raikage can amp his strength up by a considerable margin from that level by fully activating his Raiton Shroud. We know this because Raiger Bomb only cracked a single Susanoo rib, but when using a fully active Raiton Shroud Raikage's pimp hand smashed right through it.
> 
> Raikage would plow right through whatever defence Jiraiya has planned.
> 
> ...



Lol no. It's like half the radius of what Tsunade can do with one limb. And no, Raikage failed to hurt Sasuke with his back hand and Sasuke was busily lighting Susanoo on fire, he wasn't blitzed (or harmed) at all.


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## Vergil642 (Sep 30, 2009)

hmph said:


> Lol no. It's like half the radius of what Tsunade can do with one limb. And no, Raikage failed to hurt Sasuke with his back hand and Sasuke was busily lighting Susanoo on fire, he wasn't blitzed (or harmed) at all.



Protip: Check the final damage radius of the jutsu before attempting to refute an argument.

Also, Sasuke's only just able to put up a defence thanks to an incredibly fast jutsu, he's physically unable to react to Raikage or track him with his eyes. Admittedly, this isn't outright blitzing, but Raikage nevertheless moves faster than Sasuke can see.

Oh yeah, if Sasuke received no damage, why's he bleeding?


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## hmph (Sep 30, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Protip: Check the final damage radius of the jutsu before attempting to refute an argument.
> 
> Also, Sasuke's only just able to put up a defence thanks to an incredibly fast jutsu, he's physically unable to react to Raikage or track him with his eyes. Admittedly, this isn't outright blitzing, but Raikage nevertheless moves faster than Sasuke can see.
> 
> Oh yeah, if Sasuke received no damage, why's he bleeding?



A matter of vantage. Twice the size is an exaggeration, but Tsunade certainly dealt more damage with, again, one limb as opposed to a power bomb. Thats a dramatic difference in strength.

He had no problems seeing and reacting to the Guillotine Drop either. He was fully able to keep up with Raikage's movements, he was just, again, lighting Susano'o on fire before his Ama ran out. He showed he was fully aware of where Raikage was.

A bloody lip? Is that the equivalent of harmed to you? Thats a pretty pathetic amount of damage for close-lining someone. He was, for all effective purposes, unharmed.


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## AeroNin (Sep 30, 2009)

what? Raikage speedblitzed sharigan easily he clearly appeared right behind sasuke, he put AM on susano shield because he couldnt see raikage thats how fast he was going

and you guys still having proven how jiraiya doesnt get speedblitzed or have enough time to put up a defense

plus lol at raiger bomb being compared to tsunade. Look at page 6 bottom panel of that chapter. The crater it created was just as big as the one FRS made


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## Vergil642 (Sep 30, 2009)

hmph said:


> A matter of vantage. Twice the size is an exaggeration, but Tsunade certainly dealt more damage with, again, one limb as opposed to a power bomb. Thats a dramatic difference in strength.
> 
> He had no problems seeing and reacting to the Guillotine Drop either. He was fully able to keep up with Raikage's movements, he was just, again, lighting Susano'o on fire before his Ama ran out. He showed he was fully aware of where Raikage was.
> 
> A bloody lip? Is that the equivalent of harmed to you? Thats a pretty pathetic amount of damage for close-lining someone. He was, for all effective purposes, unharmed.



I'd argue it's more Kishi being inconsistent as the crater is most definitely bigger here than it is here. For that matter, Raikage and Sasuke seem considerably further apart here (bottom left panel) than in the later page.

Having said this, the damage radius still seems very comperable. From this we can deduce Raikage in that state is a little less strong than Tsunade. However, considering how much damage he does to Susanoo with a backhand when his Raiton Shroud is fully powered up (he fucking shatters it) than he does when he Raiger Bombs it when not fully powered up (breaks the end of a rib), I'd say at full strength Raikage's possibly the strongest character in the manga.

And yeah, Susanoo took most of the damage from Raikage's pimp hand. If it wasn't there, Sasuke'd get torn in half.

Guillotine Drop is an attack that Raikage can't really use at speed. It's a simple matter of where he's going to get his propulsion from. When using the backhand, he's running around on the ground and using this to keep himself at high speed. When in the air, he can't push off of anything to keep his speed up. Thus he hangs in the air a moment like anyone else just before executing the attack. 

HM Jiraiya's durability<Incomplete Susanoo's. Fully powered up Raikage is able to shatter Incomplete Susanoo. He'll do much the same to HM Jiraiya.


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## hmph (Sep 30, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> I'd argue it's more Kishi being inconsistent as the crater is most definitely bigger here than it is here. For that matter, Raikage and Sasuke seem considerably further apart here (bottom left panel) than in the later page.
> 
> Having said this, the damage radius still seems very comperable. From this we can deduce Raikage in that state is a little less strong than Tsunade. However, considering how much damage he does to Susanoo with a backhand when his Raiton Shroud is fully powered up (he fucking shatters it) than he does when he Raiger Bombs it when not fully powered up (breaks the end of a rib), I'd say at full strength Raikage's possibly the strongest character in the manga.



I'd agree theres some inconsistency, but also remember Raikage didn't make all of that pit. They were already in one, if a smaller one.

We simply do not know how tough Sasuke's Susanoo was at that moment. Also, Susanoo was on fire. A very hot fire, and fire tends to reduce the stability of objects. Also, again, 1 leg, 2 armed power bomb.



> And yeah, Susanoo took most of the damage from Raikage's pimp hand. If it wasn't there, Sasuke'd get torn in half.
> 
> Guillotine Drop is an attack that Raikage can't really use at speed. It's a simple matter of where he's going to get his propulsion from. When using the backhand, he's running around on the ground and using this to keep himself at high speed. When in the air, he can't push off of anything to keep his speed up. Thus he hangs in the air a moment like anyone else just before executing the attack.
> 
> HM Jiraiya's durability<Incomplete Susanoo's. Fully powered up Raikage is able to shatter Incomplete Susanoo. He'll do much the same to HM Jiraiya.



True, an aerial attack's up/down direction would be difficult to manipulate, but it's not the only thing Sasuke kept up with. Sasuke was going play for play with Raikage the entire fight. As I linked, he easily looked at Raikage after he finished lighting up Susanoo. The only time he ever showed difficulty with Raikage's speed was with trying to hit him with Amaterasu. That was the only problem he had, and I hardly call that a blitz.

Base Jiraiya tanked a hit from KN4. I doubt Raikage could take him out without several direct hits in HM. Again, theres a lack of direct comparison evidence, just like with speed in regards to most fights.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Jiraiya vs. Raikage*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude, it is great. Chidori is probably the most powerful piercing attack and it could barely pierce Raikage, it wasn't even a serious wound. That is some insane durability.


Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan would cause considerable damage realistically more than Chidori could. The technique is different and Raikage's armor wouldn't be able to defend him against, that's not a technique Raikage can simply "tank" he would get annihilated. His only option would be to evade it, considering he was able to dodge Amaterasu, I'm certain he could evade it. Jiraiya would probably have to rely on Kage Bunshin feat to distract him with. 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Look, it has nothing to do with Susano'o. We have seen Raikage's strike force on Juugo. Jiraiya's strike force isn't comparable to that, thats why it is pure speculation to suggest that Jiraiya could do the same. Based on what ?
> 
> Just because he tossed a summon back(what type of attack, we don't know), let me remind you sakura was able to do the same with a punch, doesn't mean he can break Susano'o's ribs, because there is no correlation in between.
> 
> Its irrelevant, because we know how powerful Jiraiya's blows are on human sized targets. And they do not compare to Raikage.


Raikage's strike force on Juugo was greatly over-hyped simply because Juugo was pressed against the wall. He had no way out and nothing would really give, HM Jiraiya would ended causing the same result because there was no where for Juugo to go and he'd punch a hole in Juugo. 

In regards to Susano'o, it was still an incomplete technique, you simply cannot say that the only one who could break through Susano'o would be just Raikage. Characters with a high rate of strength and speed like Gated Gai, HM Jiraiya, Killer Bee would do the same pretty much do the same.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> His skull was still intact and so was his brain. I mean, the dude stood up and kept fighting like a champ. Also I am not sure whether the eyes were kicked out, I think he only got a black eye. Regardless,* Pain's durability cannot be compared to Juugo*, so it isn't much relevant anyways. Imagine what would become of a Normal shinobi without enchanced durability if he took a hit from Raikage.


They are already dead and Pain's realms have an increased durability because of that. The part in bold is purely speculation, being hit with Oodama Rasengan, or even a just a regular Rasengan would probably end up cracking Juugo in the same manner. 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> I need proof for the bold part. So far,
> Raikage has shown much impressive stuff than Jiraiya, It is just fallacious to assume that they are on par. Based on what evidence ?
> 
> Jiraiya is in the same tier with Sasuke, although we haven't seen base Jiraiya's speed so we don't know how fast he is or how much boost he gets to his speed with HM, because you cannot make a comparison between Base and HM.
> ...


The only part of Raikage's performance that was interesting was the fact that he was able to dodge Amaterasu. All of his other actions could be repeated by other characters like SM Naruto, HM Jiraiya, Gated Gai, Killer Bee, Kisame and etc.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke dodged R1, and he got blitzed by R2. I refuted the Gaara argument above, and even if you assume that Gaara was able to react to R2, then it doesn't change a thing, because Raikage still blitzed Sasuke. So you can only assume that Gaara is faster than both Raikage and Sasuke which in no way contributes to your argument.


If Raikage was as fast as you stated, Gaara should have been unable to respond to his attack. Raikage wasn't able to effectively blitz Sasuke either, Sasuke didn't think Raikage would be able to breach Susano'o but was proven wrong. He saw him coming and didn't believe that he would break through Susano'o, especially with Amaterasu enabled.

I give Raikage merits for his speed, which is undeniably fast but in the same respect, he isn't a match for HM Jiraiya, because we've seen how HM Jiraiya fights and he hardly stays stationary. He's pretty up-close and personal as well as mid-range and long range ninjutsu. Raikage needs to show us a bit more than just his Raiton Shroud Wrestling moves in order to defeat Jiraiya.


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 30, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rasengan is blunt damage, Chidori is piercing damage, just because Chidori was able to barely pierce it doesn't mean rasengan can do the same. In order to do internal damage, it first needs to bypass the shroud. Raikage would simply tank it with his chest like he tanked chidori.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is not irrelevent, it just shows that human realm has super strength.
Juugo was up against a surface which amplifies the damage by alot and human realm wasn't, people die much easier by getting punched when their head is against the  ground or wall than just standing up.
 Even if u say jiraiya wouldnt hurt raikage with a punch, shima can just fuuton raikage to weaken his raiton armor and crack him, we havent seen him get hit by a strong blunt attack so we don't know how he would handle it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 1, 2009)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan would cause considerable damage realistically more than Chidori could. The technique is different and Raikage's armor wouldn't be able to defend him against, that's not a technique Raikage can simply "tank" he would get annihilated. His only option would be to evade it, considering he was able to dodge Amaterasu, I'm certain he could evade it. Jiraiya would probably have to rely on Kage Bunshin feat to distract him with. [



I never said Odaama rasengan wouldn't cause any damage.
I am not even debating on that. We were comparing Jiraiya's durability and Raikage's thats why I came up with the chidori example, it had nothing to do with Odaama rasengan.



> Raikage's strike force on Juugo was greatly over-hyped simply because Juugo was pressed against the wall. He had no way out and nothing would really give, HM Jiraiya would ended causing the same result because there was no where for Juugo to go and he'd punch a hole in Juugo.




Again based on what evidence ?
We haven't seen Jiraiya hit a durability freak like Juugo, why do you assume that he could replicate the same thing ?
I need feats bro.

What Could Have Been
Also, it is not overhyped or anything. Juugo wasn't initlally pressed against a wall, Raikage simply shoved him into a wall, and like I said earlier, Juugo's cs skin can stop steel, but Raikage's punch broke through that defense.
What Could Have Been
and here, he presses juugo even further, and Juugo is by no means a slouch when it comes to strength. Raikage's 1 arm is alot more powerful than Juugo's 2 arms.

What Could Have Been
also look @ the distance which Raikage sent Juugo flying, and juugo got burried in the wall as a result, that feat was easily greater than SM Naruto kicking deva realm in the gut.



> In regards to Susano'o, it was still an incomplete technique, you simply cannot say that the only one who could break through Susano'o would be just Raikage. Characters with a high rate of strength and speed like Gated Gai, HM Jiraiya, Killer Bee would do the same pretty much do the same.



No I came to the conclusion that" Raikage could break through Susano'o but other people wouldn't" because of Raikage's earlier feats.
Sure, if you can post feats of those mentioned characters which can match Raikage's, you can claim that they can do the same.


> They are already dead and Pain's realms have an increased durability because of that. The part in bold is purely speculation, being hit with Oodama Rasengan, or even a just a regular Rasengan would probably end up cracking Juugo in the same manner.



He probably has more durability than Konohomaru, but when extra ordinary durability is considered he has none.
Let me repeat this again, the shuriken konohomaru threw pierced hell relams skin, and deva realm got killed by a rasengan(not hm). 

And no, Naruto's regular odaama rasengan wouldn't do much to juugo, even Itachi's shouten clone which took it head on was still in one piece and there was no significant damage done to him.



> The only part of Raikage's performance that was interesting was the fact that he was able to dodge Amaterasu. All of his other actions could be repeated by other characters like SM Naruto, HM Jiraiya, Gated Gai, Killer Bee, Kisame and etc.



Now this is trolling, please provide evidence that they can repeat what Raikage did.



> If Raikage was as fast as you stated, Gaara should have been unable to respond to his attack. Raikage wasn't able to effectively blitz Sasuke either, Sasuke didn't think Raikage would be able to breach Susano'o but was proven wrong. He saw him coming and didn't believe that he would break through Susano'o, especially with Amaterasu enabled.




1 - Like I said in my above post which you clearly didn't read, Gaara reacted to Raikage while he wasn't moving around, while he wasn't using his speed. Raikage jumped and was falling down on Sasuke, thats when Gaara made his move, he simply intercepted the speed of gravity.

2 - He effectively blitzed Sasuke, Sasuke was looking the other direction and Raikage appeared behind him, Sasuke simply raised the amaterasu shield as a counter measure because there wasn't anything else he could do.



> I give Raikage merits for his speed, which is undeniably fast but in the same respect, he isn't a match for HM Jiraiya, because we've seen how HM Jiraiya fights and he hardly stays stationary. He's pretty up-close and personal as well as mid-range and long range ninjutsu. Raikage needs to show us a bit more than just his Raiton Shroud Wrestling moves in order to defeat Jiraiya.



Its the contrary, Hm Jiraiya is no match for Raikage's speed, strength and durability. 
Jiraiya's mid ranged jutsus are pretty much irrelevant when Raikage can simply dodge them or blitz Jiraiya in advance, not allowing him to use them in the first place.
Raikage isn't like Pain(who is a stationary fighter and only counter attacks when he has the chance), he is on full offense, Jiraiya doesn't have much chances against him, especially in the scenario's when he doesn't start in hm.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 1, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I never said Odaama rasengan wouldn't cause any damage.
> I am not even debating on that. We were comparing Jiraiya's durability and Raikage's thats why I came up with the chidori example, it had nothing to do with Odaama rasengan.
> 
> 
> ...



Raikages only durability feat is tanking the fingernail of sasuke (the chidori would have diluted into the raiton armor). He has no speed feats, just reflexive feats and a short range sunshin. His strength feats as i have said are no where near kicking a giant bull through the air.


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## 321zigzag (Oct 1, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Raikages only durability feat is tanking the fingernail of sasuke (the chidori would have diluted into the raiton armor). He has no speed feats, just reflexive feats and a short range sunshin. His strength feats as i have said are no where near kicking a giant bull through the air.



Raikage has no speed feats?
Raikage in raiton aura was said to be the same as Yondaime's speed.
Yondaime is very fast too, if rescued young Kakashi from the earth ninja from death far away in pure speed.

Raikage in raiton aura level 2 left an after image which shows it is incredible speed. Thats like low hypersonic right there.

That being said Raikage should be able to keep up with Sage Jiraiya physically.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 1, 2009)

321zigzag said:


> Raikage has no speed feats?
> Raikage in raiton aura was said to be the same as Yondaime's speed.
> Yondaime is very fast too, if rescued young Kakashi from the earth ninja from death far away in pure speed.
> 
> ...



I said he had reflex feats, just not pure speed. And it is said his reflexes are on par with minatos with the aura up not speed.


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## Black Sabbath II (Oct 1, 2009)

... Why the heck is this still even being debated?

JIRAIYA TAKES THIS D=

Frog song people! FROG SOOOOONG.


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## kingcombo (Oct 22, 2009)

^ Doesn't raikage have a good genjutsu defense


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## biar (Oct 26, 2009)

With a bunch of summons and Sage mode aiding him Jiraiya takes this, otherwise my bets are on Raikage.

Still Jiraiya's wise enough to avoid direct fighting against Raikage, who know what will happen if they were to fight.

Again Kisame, who self admitted to be inferior to Jiraiya, is confident to solo Killerbee, who's as strong or stronger (with bijuu release) than his brother.


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## David (Oct 26, 2009)

I have absolutely no fucking idea.  What I do wonder is why Itachifans are so supportive of Raikage.  It seems like most people either greatly underestimate him or greatly overestimate him.

The way I see it, either Raikage wins or Jiraiya takes him down with Yomi Numa ("Swamp of the Underworld").


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

What I don't get is why people think Yomi Numa will kill High Kege ninjas like the Raikage but only temporarily trap low Jounin ninjas like Human Realm, especially since it's canon that each Pein realm individually has minimal all-around utility. Furthermore, since Jiraiya only speed feat is on Human realm, who easily blocked his punch, and Human Realm's only speed feat is on Jiraiya... and Shizune... I'm confused as to why people assume they're even the fastest in the manga with so little support.

I give it to the Raikage 7/10.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 26, 2009)

You think Human Realm is low jounin level?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Well, the Colloseum has him on level with Sugietsu 

*Edit:* Which I don't find to be accurate as I believe Sugietsu, Asuma, Juugo, Neji, Kimimaro, or even an armless Orochimaru with whom he's grouped with have the advantage against him. You may think otherwise, but you likely use the circular argument I've listed above to create his feats. His only other feat, aside from the circle, inculde beating Shizune easily whose feats have landed her at the Mid-Chuunin level in the Colosseum along with Haku although both are purportedly elite Jounin, their feats say otherwise as Haku's basics abilities were raped by a Sasuke who was raped by weighted Lee. That is all.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 26, 2009)

Well he DID block a senjutsu powered punch.Even if it probably wasn't full power(as Jiraiya was blinded by the smoke aswell).
Probably everyone who doesn't have at least 4.5 in strength would have been torn apart by that punch.
As for Shizune,she was fighting pretty evenly with Kabuto,who was stomping on ANBU like they were bugs,and in turn was defeated by Naruto.

These kind of contradictions appear due to plot reasons,but if you look at it objectively,I'm pretty sure Human Realm's implied power level is far above any jounin or ANBU

And I don't think that,if you take into consideration databook and manga statements,you can logicaly debate against Jiraiya being among the top tier in speed.

edit:
As for Raikage,his speed feats aren't really speed feats,because he used Shunshin.
His best speed(shunshin) feat is evading Amaterasu,which was used by a beaten and tired Sasuke.Also we know how much of a strain Amaterasu puts on the eye,and Sasuke's field of vision is blocked by it,which leads to further delay,honestly it ain't that much of a feat on Raikage's part.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Well, the Colloseum has him on level with Sugietsu
> 
> *Edit:* Which I don't find to be accurate as I believe Sugietsu, Asuma, Juugo, Neji, Kimimaro, or even an armless Orochimaru with whom he's grouped with have the advantage against him. You may think otherwise, but you likely use the circular argument I've listed above to create his feats. His only other feat, aside from the circle, inculde beating Shizune easily whose feats have landed her at the Mid-Chuunin level in the Colosseum along with Haku although both are purportedly elite Jounin, their feats say otherwise as Haku's basics abilities were raped by a Sasuke who was raped by weighted Lee. That is all.





If you go by collosium logic Itachi is low kage level


While heavily restricted Jiraiya is Legendary Kage level


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Well he DID block a senjutsu powered punch.Even if it probably wasn't full power(as Jiraiya was blinded by the smoke aswell). Probably everyone who doesn't have at least 4.5 in strength would have been torn apart by that punch.



I've never argued over strength despite it's inconsistencies.



MrBlonde said:


> As for Shizune,she was fighting pretty evenly with Kabuto,who was stomping on ANBU like they were bugs,and in turn was defeated by Naruto.



So Shizune's feats include being even w/ someone level with CE Naruto 



MrBlonde said:


> These kind of contradictions appear due to plot reasons,but if you look at it objectively,I'm pretty sure Human Realm's implied power level is far above any jounin or ANBU



Far above ANBU and nameless Jounin. In terms of named characters... no.



MrBlonde said:


> And I don't think that,if you take into consideration databook and manga statements,you can logicaly debate against Jiraiya being among the top tier in speed.



Oh no, he's fast, but not _that_ fast.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

And show me Itachi's greatest speed fleats.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Is this an Itachi thread?


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2009)

Raikage's strength and speed have a great edge in this match up, especially with the lightning shroud. HM Jiraiya probably could put up a decent fight against Raikage, but all this comes down to is a brutal battle of strength and at this point in time, both of them have pretty much equal in. Jiraiya has shown more ninjutsu and using shadow clones and summons, he could conjure some intense ninjutsu as he did against Pain. 

But Raikage has shown to be faster, I would state that he has higher chances winning but the match could really go either way. Both have considerable experience and they are well-tuned shinobi, but Raikage seems to lack overall ninjutsu (outside of his lightning shroud).


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 26, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I've never argued over strength despite it's inconsistencies.


So why argue against speed?





Illusory said:


> So Shizune's feats include being even w/ someone level with CE Naruto


The same Naruto who defeated the Ichibi?It ain't that bad.





Illusory said:


> Far above ANBU and nameless Jounin. In terms of named characters... no.


Well the fact that they're named characters or not shouldn't matter in the battledome because the battledome is not supposed to by PIS/PNJ affected




Illusory said:


> Oh no, he's fast, but not _that_ fast.


Oh yes he is


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> So why argue against speed?



Because people use his speed as an argument. 



MrBlonde said:


> The same Naruto who defeated the Ichibi?It ain't that bad.



Not bad, but Shizune is still _quite_ inferior to PTS Neji.



MrBlonde said:


> Well the fact that they're named characters or not shouldn't matter in the battledome because the battledome is not supposed to by PIS/PNJ affected



Haku was said to have killed countless Jounin. Yet... teh' feats.



Dariustwinblade said:


> If you go by collosium logic Itachi is low kage level.



This is with heavy restrictions though.


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2009)

> low Jounin ninjas like Human Realm


Umm How can you think Human Realm is low Jounnin level? Is it because he only has one Ability. Hiden only has one Ability and he is an S-Class Criminal who got in Akatsuki. He was the weakest member but still he defeated Asuma pretty easily and managed to do it twice. 

Human Realm still has the Rannigan that lets him see Chakra and Barriers. He Still has Duel Vision as one of his Abilities. He has the Chakra Disrupting Black Rods that greatly   fuck up the movements of any enemy. He Blocked HM Jiraiya's Punch easily with one hand which puts him at a very high tier for Power. He actually had the Speed to Block HM Jiraiya's Punch which even with Duel Vision puts him at a high Tier for speed and he blitzed Shizune w/o her even knowing till it was too late which again suggest a high tier of speed considering Shizune is ranked as a 4 in the Data-book in Speed so she is above average in that stat.

He only needs to Grab your head to completely immobilize you and one shot basically anyone and he can read minds extracting intel from the Shinobi he has. He also has all the knowledge, intelligence, and experience of Nagato who is a pretty experienced Shinobi. It should also be assumed he can use all the basic Shinobi arts like Kwarimi at an above Average Jounnin level as the Pain bodies were all able to do this and Animal Realm even Kwarimi'd out of an attack from Jiraiya. And being a corpse he has higher durability then normal Ninja. 



> Edit: Which I don't find to be accurate as I believe Sugietsu, Asuma, Juugo, Neji, Kimimaro, or even an armless Orochimaru with whom he's grouped with have the advantage against him. You may think otherwise, but you likely use the circular argument I've listed above to create his feats. His only other feat, aside from the circle, inculde beating Shizune easily whose feats have landed her at the Mid-Chuunin level in the Colosseum along with Haku although both are purportedly elite Jounin, their feats say otherwise as Haku's basics abilities were raped by a Sasuke who was raped by weighted Lee. That is all.



Dude you can't use the Colosseum tier list as an indicator of Shizune's Strength the reason she is so low is that the Colosseum only goes off what we have seen form Shizune this far which is basically a Poison cloud ninjutsu as her only offensive ninjutsu and Medical Ninjutsu thats it. Shizune is suppose to be a-lot strong in the actual manga with only above Average Jounin being able to own her. 

As for the characters you list. I Really doubt Suigetsu could beat Human Realm at least not from what we have seen. Human Realm is faster then Suigetsu and he has the perfect weapon to defeat him bypassing his water body. Juugo is basically the same he would probably get blitz and eventually have his soul ripped out. Asuma would get blitzed as well and end up like he did against Hiden. 

I Agree Orochimaru w/o arms would defeat him as not having Arms doesn't gimp a guy who most of his Ninjutsu don't require handseals and fights like a snake anyway. However on that tier list Oro w/o Arms is gimped even more as he can only use the Techniques he showed during the Sannin fight not all the Techniques we have seen from him that don't require arms. In which case Oro would lose if gimped to such an extent. 

Simply Put Human Realm is Around Hiden's level in My opinion, maybe even a little better.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 26, 2009)

Illusory said:


> This is with heavy restrictions though.






Btw You do realize that Yomi Numa and frog song and all of his good summons bun,ken and hiro is banned in the colossium. Along with Summoning Ma and Pa seperately.



While Itachi's MS is restricted. And yet who is rated higher. That's right?


Jiraiya's Yomi Numa is rated on the same level of brokeness as Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, And Susanoo. 

Jiiraiya is much more heavily restricted. 


And What is Raikage's counter to toad gourd barrier. If he charges at Jiraiya like an idiot. He get drowned in acid.


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 26, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Because people use his speed as an argument.


What I meant was,if you accept Jiraiya/Human Realm's top tier strength level despite what you claim are inconsistent feats,why can't you do the same with speed?





Illusory said:


> Not bad, but Shizune is still _quite_ inferior to PTS Neji.


Based on?



Illusory said:


> Haku was said to have killed countless Jounin. Yet...


Like I said,Sasuke/Naruto being far more plot relevant than Haku,therefore defeating(sort of) him shouldn't matter in the battledome,where plot has absolutely no role.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 26, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Btw You do realize...



I realize that we were talking about Human Realm 



Turrin said:


> Umm How can you think Human Realm is low Jounnin level? Is it because he only has one Ability.



No, it's because his feats put him there. He can a low-mid Jounin though.



Turrin said:


> Shizune is ranked as a 4 in the Data-book in Speed so she is above average in that stat.



So is Haku, but Haku would be raped by Lee in the manga 



Turrin said:


> He only needs to Grab your head to completely immobilize you...



Which won't be done to anyone of the Jounin level.



Turrin said:


> Dude you can't use the Colosseum tier list as an indicator of Shizune's Strength the reason she is so low is that the Colosseum only goes off what we have seen form Shizune this far



 ... I know. This is an argument over feats though. Haku owns Jounins too.



Turrin said:


> As for the characters you list. I Really doubt Suigetsu could beat Human Realm at least not from what we have seen. Human Realm is faster then Suigetsu and he has the perfect weapon to defeat him bypassing his water body. Juugo is basically the same he would probably get blitz and eventually have his soul ripped out. Asuma would get blitzed as well and end up like he did against Hiden.



Are you basing every blitz argument after Shizune who is inferior to PTS Neji or are you using the standard HM Jiraiya is fast because Human Realm is fast because HM Jiraiya is fast. He wouldn't blitz any of those names and wouldn't immobilize them.



MrBlonde said:


> What I meant was,if you accept Jiraiya/Human Realm's top tier strength level despite what you claim are inconsistent feats,why can't you do the same with speed?



Because he punched through walls. You have to be strong. Speed, on the other hand, can be misleading. Sasuke seemed ridiculously fast against Haku, but was raped by weighted Lee. Speed requires more than just punching through a wall, particularly when people like Turrin think he can blitz someone like Asuma and pull out his soul as easy as he did Shizune.



MrBlonde said:


> Based on?



Naruto put less effort in to beating Kabuto then he did in to beating Neji. Shizune was completely incapable of beating Kabuto and, furthermore, Naruto was tiers slower against Kabuto than he was against Neji at that time. 



MrBlonde said:


> Like I said,Sasuke/Naruto being far more plot relevant than Haku,therefore defeating(sort of) him shouldn't matter in the battledome,where plot has absolutely no role.



You're not listening. Speed is misleading, named rank is misleading. Feats are what I care about. Sasuke defeated hundreds of shinobi without being touched or killing any one of them and they were surely some Jounin in there. Haku killed many Jounin before yet he would be absolutely decimated by PTS weighted Lee's speed if Sasuke was keeping up. Arguments can't revolve around such things.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 27, 2009)

Does this look slow.





cause this is what happened in the manga.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 27, 2009)

Now show me raikage's speed fleats


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## Sadgoob (Oct 27, 2009)

Hungry Ghost reacted. You're hurting your case 

Raikage moves faster than the Sharingan.

/thread


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## Mr.Blonde (Oct 27, 2009)

^But the Sharingan isn't the most powerfull dojutsu,the Rinnegan is 
Sasuke also didn't have 2 extra sets of eyes watching Raikage,and Hungry Ghost wasn't beaten down and tired.

Raikage also wasn't busy forming a rasengan the size of a bulldozer


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## Final Jutsu (Oct 27, 2009)

Jiraiya with difficulty.  He has barrier/competitive speed/higher strenght/more versatile jutsu/ma+pa/high stamina/mass summons/bunshu feints/swamp/frog song.


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 28, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Hungry Ghost reacted. You're hurting your case
> 
> Raikage moves faster than the Sharingan.
> 
> /thread



Yes, Juugo, Suigetshu and Gaara reacted to them.



So HM Jiraiya > Raikage in speed until shown a substantial fleats.


Jiraiya's movements was hypersonic, it destroyed the area while Raikage's speed did jack squat to the area.


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## Luxiano (Oct 28, 2009)

I think Raikage is a bit overrated srsly , except rushing like an animal with brute str , he basically showed nothing , Jiraiya might pull a win with a Yomi Numa combo + Sage tech although it could go eitherway.


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## Jermaine (Oct 28, 2009)

Final Jutsu said:


> Jiraiya with difficulty.  He has barrier/competitive speed/higher strenght/more versatile jutsu/ma+pa/high stamina/mass summons/bunshu feints/swamp/frog song.



Wont have time to use that against such a fast opponent.

He gets blitzed before he can go Sage.


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## Lord Stark (Oct 28, 2009)

Jermaine said:


> Wont have time to use that against such a fast opponent.
> 
> He gets blitzed before he can go Sage.



Raikage isn't blitzing Jiraiya.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 29, 2009)

clador said:


> i'm not talking about a little boy over confident
> 
> i'm  talking about jiraiya , the most experimented ninja who traveled every
> where and know his skill and also know akatsuki
> ...



OK first, itachi and kisame fled because they did not want to engage in combat, itachi had no desire to fight, (although i do think jiraiya could beat them both individually)

Raikage cannot be underestimated, he can subdue an eight tailed beast in killerbee, and orochimaru struggled with four tailed naruto and he is considered on a par or just below jiraiya. Jiraiya was almost killed by three tailed naruto aswell, but i put that down to carelessness. 
Point is, you cannot underestimate the raikages power, especially his taijutsu, if jiraiya was to win, he would need to draw on all his skills, hermit mode, gamabunta, ma and pa etc. It would not be a curvestomp like some people are suggesting but in the end jiraiya would win due to his experience and his tactical ability to counter opponents strengths. He simply has a larger range of abilities than raikage has shown so far and likely possesses


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## Sadgoob (Oct 29, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Raikage isn't blitzing Jiraiya.



But he can blitz Sasuke? I don't follow.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 29, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> So HM Jiraiya > Raikage in speed until shown a substantial fleats.



Moving faster than Sasuke can even see > Hungry Ghost & Human blocking.


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## the box (Oct 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Moving faster than Sasuke can even see > Hungry Ghost & Human blocking.



 if he blitz jiraya he will be eatin by a frog


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Moving faster than Sasuke can even see > Hungry Ghost & Human blocking.


He wasn't moving faster than sasuke could see.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 30, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Yes, Juugo, Suigetshu and Gaara reacted to them.



So you have proof that they can't react to Jiraiya ?

And when Raikage targeted Juugo, juugo could barely lift his arms up as a defense. And Raikage wasn't even using r2 shroud.




> So HM Jiraiya > Raikage in speed until shown a substantial fleats.





Like moving @ speeds which leave after images for Sharingan ?

So tell me, which speed feat of Jiraiya comes close to that ? Or better, does Jiraiya have any speed feats at all?




> Jiraiya's movements was hypersonic, it destroyed the area while Raikage's speed did jack squat to the area.



hyper sonic ?


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## Dariustwinblade (Oct 30, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you have proof that they can't react to Jiraiya ?



Do you have any proof Jiraiya can't react to Raikage like them




> And when Raikage targeted Juugo, juugo could barely lift his arms up as a defense. And Raikage wasn't even using r2 shroud.



WTF are you talking about, he was able to *create *a meat sheild, before the Riakage blitzed him.

Sugetshi and Juugo reacted to Riakage's blitz and blocked his attack for Sasuke.

Gaara reacted and blocked Raikage's level2 dropkick.



> Like moving @ speeds which leave after images for Sharingan ?
> 
> So tell me, which speed feat of Jiraiya comes close to that ? Or better, does Jiraiya have any speed feats at all?




 Normally when you go fast enough make and explosive sound it is normally supersonic.

So what sound effect does Riakage's speed do.

 Destroying the area > making an afterimage. Meaning faster than the eye can see.




> hyper sonic ?




KK! hypersonic maybe not but supersonic at least. And atleast faster than the Raikage. Who make no sound effect or damage effect.



At the very least, Raikage is not blitzing Jiraiya.



Jiraiya can just acidify Raikage in his toad gourd barrier. If Raikage charges like an Idiot.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2009)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Do you have any proof Jiraiya can't react to Raikage like them



Base Jiraiya can't, based on the fact that Sasuke couldn't(who happens to have sharingan prediction) and Hm Jiraiya will have problems because he clearly isn't as fast as raikage.






> WTF are you talking about, he was able to *create *a meat sheild, before the Riakage blitzed him.


By meat shield, if you mean that he simply made his arms a little bigger, yeah I agree. 



> Sugetshi and Juugo reacted to Riakage's blitz and blocked his attack for Sasuke.


They didn't react to Raikage's blitz, Raikage appeared infront of Sasuke before they could even move, , thats when they intercepted it.



> Gaara reacted and blocked Raikage's level2 dropkick.


Only that he reacted to Raikage when Raikage was falling down with the speed of gravity, not when he was running around.




> Normally when you go fast enough make and explosive sound it is normally supersonic.
> 
> So what sound effect does Riakage's speed do.
> 
> Destroying the area > making an afterimage. Meaning faster than the eye can see.





So your argument is, that Jiraiya is faster because he made the ground explode when he leaped @ Pain ? 



The ground was damaged because Jiraiya hurled himself with all his strength, Raikage never ever done anything like that, he was simply running around with a speed that leaves after images(which is alot more impressive than a one time deal linear attack), the two feats aren't even alike. Jiraiya's feat is jumping @ high speed, Raikage's feat is simply running around. 
Jiraiya jumping feat is similar to Rari atto bee's, but slower.

Although If the aerial damage was a measure alone, you could simply say that was faster than Raikage too, hell even faster than Jiraiya because he did more damage 






> KK! hypersonic maybe not but supersonic at least. And atleast faster than the Raikage. Who make no sound effect or damage effect.




Read above.




> At the very least, Raikage is not blitzing Jiraiya.


Not HM Jiraiya, but still HM Jiraiya will have problems against his speed.





> Jiraiya can just acidify Raikage in his toad gourd barrier. If Raikage charges like an Idiot.


We haven't seen toad gourd barrier in action so I can't elaborate on that.


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## Goobtachi (Nov 1, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> .Frog song seems to be Jiraiya's only chance here, so out of 10 matches, Jiraiya could maybe win 1 of them if he successfully managed to execute it.



he'll never be able to execute it, since raikage isn't as slow as the pain's bodies' Jiraiya faced. so  unless you put the location in a labyrinth, there no chance in hell Jiraiya manages to successfully execute Frog song.As for the barrier; if Raikage's speed is supersonic, which is the case, it will be useless; so, Jiraiya wins this 0/10


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 1, 2009)

Not sure how Jiraiya can handle the super speed from the Raikage. =/ 

I mean he moves faster than one with the Sharingan can predict -- how does Jiraiya win against that?


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## Indestructible (Nov 1, 2009)

Jiraiya wins because of his extensive ninjutsu. 
However as seen in the anime, Jiraiya isn't that much faster in sage mode than he is in Base Mode, seeing as how most Peins can go toe-to-toe with him.
I would say that shroud Raikage is a bit faster and stronger than HM Jiraiya but he's nowhere near as experienced or cunning as Jiraiya and doesn't have the powerful ninjutsu/genjutsu Jiraiya has.


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## biar (Mar 16, 2010)

Raikage rapes and speed blitzes, SM Jiraiya lost his arm to a closed range Pain body while Raikage dodged a point blank range blast.


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## Oyako Shinju (Mar 16, 2010)

Wow, four months old... you must have had to hunt for this.

Dunno why you bothered to bring it back up... especially when you're clearly wrong as well. Raikage really can't withstand or avoid an attack with the power and scope of a Gamabunta + Jiraya toad oil and katon blast.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 16, 2010)

Oyako Shinju said:


> Wow, four months old... you must have had to hunt for this.
> 
> Dunno why you bothered to bring it back up... especially when you're clearly wrong as well. Raikage really can't withstand or *avoid an attack with the power and scope of a Gamabunta + Jiraya toad oil and katon blast*.



thats a joke right? lighting shroud? those attacks would not even harm him!

Lets be realistic here Jiraya dies first 5 secs of the fight because he will not see the raikage attack coming nor does he have the feats to dodge it!

Raikage wins low diffculty


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## Mr.Blonde (Mar 16, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> thats a joke right? lighting shroud? those attacks would not even harm him!


So now being surrounded by lightning chakra prevents you from being burned alive?



Jodyjoe the great said:


> Lets be realistic here Jiraya dies first 5 secs of the fight because he will not see the raikage attack coming nor does he have the feats to dodge it!


Why should he need to dodge it?
Remember Kakashi Gaiden?Chidori being incomplete without the Sharingan?That bit about how moving at very high speed prevents you from perceiving enemy counter attacks unless you have the Sharingan?

Seriously,Raikage tried to 'speed blitz' and was intercepted by Sasuke's lapdogs.If he tries the same shit against Jiraiya he'll find himself diving chin first into a Rasengan and that'll be the end of it.


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## Oyako Shinju (Mar 16, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> thats a joke right? lighting shroud? those attacks would not even harm him!
> 
> Lets be realistic here Jiraya dies first 5 secs of the fight because he will not see the raikage attack coming nor does he have the feats to dodge it!
> 
> Raikage wins low diffculty



Here, 

Look at the since of Gamabunta in that scan, and remember he is a giant frog. That is an attack that the Raikage cannot dodge, and cannot survive.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 17, 2010)

Oyako Shinju said:


> Here,
> 
> Look at the since of Gamabunta in that scan, and remember he is a giant frog. That is an attack that the Raikage cannot dodge, and cannot survive.



Raikage tanks every attack and eats the frog and kills j-man.


I stress again Jiraiya cant even see raikage coming he wouldnt be able to react.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh, c'mon...the Raikage starts out with speeds that Suigetsu can react to. Think Jiraiya won't be able to react?


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 17, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, c'mon...the Raikage starts out with speeds that Suigetsu can react to. Think Jiraiya won't be able to react?



So this is all on the hope raikage doesnt just rip him apart at full speed.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 17, 2010)

So the Raikage goes totally OOC into his strongest speed which he only did when Sasuke really, really, REALLY pissed him off....yeah, that seems off


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## Sadgoob (Mar 17, 2010)

Fine, Jiraiya reacts like Suigetsu did, but has his arms torn off. Happy?


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## Gspot (Mar 17, 2010)

Jiraiya is far too complete a tactical fighter for Raikage. I wonder if Raikage can do anything besides wreck shit.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Fine, Jiraiya reacts like Suigetsu did, but has his arms torn off. Happy?



Except, he is much stronger than Suigetsu physically and a lot more durable, too.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 17, 2010)

Yeah, I was gonna say....comparing Jiraiya to Suigetsu in strength? Come on..


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## Shizune (Mar 17, 2010)

Gamaken, Gamabunta, Gamahiro, Shima and Fukusaku make this a stomp for Jiraiya.


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## Rampage (Mar 17, 2010)

@ people saying Jiraiya can't react


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 18, 2010)

Uzumaki Lee said:


> @ people saying Jiraiya can't react



 @ you thinking jiraiya can react when sasuke with sharingan couldnt are you trying to imply because jiraiya has sage mode his eyes are above sharingan now?

as usual jiraiya fandom dont make sense.


A complete a tactical fighter? yea right he couldnt even handle animal realm without sage mode.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 18, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> @ you thinking jiraiya can react when sasuke with sharingan couldnt are you trying to imply because jiraiya has sage mode his eyes are above sharingan now?


No, his speed is just way greater....



> as usual jiraiya fandom dont make sense.
> 
> 
> A complete a tactical fighter? yea right he couldnt even handle animal realm without sage mode.



Uh, no. Jiraiya decided since Animal Realm was in an invisible chameleon, had the Rinnegan and knew his style, he had to go all out in a mode that could sense chakra and was way stronger.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> @ you thinking jiraiya can react when sasuke with sharingan couldnt are you trying to imply because jiraiya has sage mode his eyes are above sharingan now?
> 
> as usual jiraiya fandom dont make sense.
> 
> ...



Well, Jiraiya is faster than Sasuke in Hermit Mode, is he not? And much better at Taijutsu.



Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, I was gonna say....comparing Jiraiya to Suigetsu in strength? Come on..



And speed and durability, too? 

Actually, I believe A will take this match, he is way too fast for Jiraiya and his Toads to strike. Jiraiya is crazy fast, but even will be unable to keep up with A's Shunshin in Raiton Shroud L2. Save Giant Rasengan, not much will be getting through a chakra armor which is enhanced by Bijuu-level chakra. And his physical strength is still inferior to A, who has his amped by Bijuu-level chakra.

People seriously underestimate how much stronger a chakra level comparable to the Eight-Tailed Beast could make a ninja putting that level of chakra in an Elemental Shroud, to boost their abilities. 

Even that A could simply evade. 

We just haven't seen enough of A, but from the looks of it, I would say he would take Jiraiya, especially considering he is not in a bad temper and willing to risk his own life to avenge his own brother.

Also, IIRC, Shi stated that A was equal in speed and reaction timing to Minato, only when he was in Raiton Shroud L1, not L2. 

In L2 he is probably loads faster, you know.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 19, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> And speed and durability, too?
> 
> Actually, I believe A will take this match, he is way too fast for Jiraiya and his Toads to strike. Jiraiya is crazy fast, but even will be unable to keep up with A's Shunshin in Raiton Shroud L2. Save Giant Rasengan, not much will be getting through a chakra armor which is enhanced by Bijuu-level chakra. And his physical strength is still inferior to A, who has his amped by Bijuu-level chakra.
> 
> ...



Raikage is the king of speed but how is actually going to hurt Jiraiya is the question. 

1. In sennin moodo, Jiraiya has Ma and Pa. They are both fuuton users, therefore they can take away the raiton shroud easily. Ma's fuuton is an AOE jutsu and has the benefit of blinding raikage. If Raikage attacks, she uses the fuuton when he comes in contact with it, his speed decreases and he does not know where Jiraiya is whereas Jiraiya knows where he is at all times

2. Ma and Pa can slow down raikage with frog call (kawazu naki not frog confrontation chant=gamarinshou). The minute raikage's hears enters the sounds of the croaking he is paralyzed (again this is not frog confrontation singing, the genjutsu but rather frog call, the ninjutsu).

3. It was never stated anywhere that raikage has 8-tails bijuu chakra levels. He has comparable chakra to a bijuu but not necessarily the 8 tails


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## GreenTeaMmm (Mar 19, 2010)

jirayai. im sorry... but when this is your tactic in a fight...

you can't possibly face someone who is actually a good tactical fighter


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## Oyako Shinju (Mar 19, 2010)

Oyako Shinju said:


> Here,
> 
> Look at the since of Gamabunta in that scan, and remember he is a giant frog. That is an attack that the Raikage cannot dodge, and cannot survive.



I said it before, and I'll say it again. There is nothing the Raikage could do against this attack.

Saying that his shroud will protect him from a katon several times the size of gamabunta, or that he would be able to avoid such a massive area of effect is ridiculous.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 19, 2010)

if blades and lighting cant hurt raikage than how on earth is fire going to burn him.

isnt he the man who willingly tanked ama to the arm with a smile?

Raikage doesnt need good tactic to fight jirayia raikage speedbiltz and kills jirayia based on the fact jirayia wouldnt be able to react or see it coming at him.


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## GreenTeaMmm (Mar 19, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> if blades and lighting cant hurt raikage than how on earth is fire going to burn him.
> 
> isnt he the man who willingly tanked ama to the arm with a smile?
> 
> Raikage doesnt need good tactic to fight jirayia raikage speedbiltz and kills jirayia based on the fact jirayia wouldnt be able to react or see it coming at him.



j-man is fighting with his eyes closed?


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 19, 2010)

Seriously the Raikage is going to "speed blitz" any top tier ninja is absolutly retarded argument. Raikage speed is SEVERLY overrated and he is simply not going to speed blitz anyone of the higher class nins. 

Raikage is simply to one dimensional right now. He needs to show further abilities for him to have a chance against most elite shinobi.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 19, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Raikage is the king of speed but how is actually going to hurt Jiraiya is the question.
> 
> 1. In sennin moodo, Jiraiya has Ma and Pa. They are both fuuton users, therefore they can take away the raiton shroud easily. Ma's fuuton is an AOE jutsu and has the benefit of blinding raikage. If Raikage attacks, she uses the fuuton when he comes in contact with it, his speed decreases and he does not know where Jiraiya is whereas Jiraiya knows where he is at all times
> 
> ...



The only Tailed Beast Karin ever saw was the Hachibi no Kyogyu, and the only one she ever sensed, so she would not be comparing A's chakra to any other Bijuu.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Mar 21, 2010)

GreenTeaMmm said:


> j-man is fighting with his eyes closed?



THEY might as well be he cant see what his eyes cant follow.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Apr 5, 2010)

i ahve to go with jiraiya on this one, his giant rasengan can obliterate raikage


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## Black Sabbath II (Apr 5, 2010)

Jiraiya is the smarter of the two and SHOULD be able to take this...

But unless he starts the match in Hermit mode he loses right off the bat. Raikage's shown to  be on equal (Higher when he uses shunshin) standing with Sasuke in terms of speed. I doubt Jiraiya at his age would be able to handle such speed. Raikage could easily lariat him before he does a thing. Jiraiya NEEDS to start this in HM. If not he goes down.

And before anyone disregards Raikage's base speed as a fluke, just look at what he did to Kisame. I'm pretty sure Kisame is no slouch when it comes to speed, but Raikage made it seem as though he was. I'm just saying, if Jiraiya's in base he can't mount any offence unless he's prepared before hand. You know, already summoned bunta or laid traps somewhere. If he even tries to summon bunta mid battle he'd be leaving himself open to a speedy attack.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 23, 2010)

Jiraiya has the exact speed stat as Sasuke and the Raikage isn't that fast until he goes into his SSJ2 mode. Bunta is even faster. 

Also, a few things?
A. That wasn't Kisame. It was a 'useless for combat' Zetsu clone
B. The Raikage had his Raiton shroud activated for that..


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## Hazuki (Apr 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya has the exact speed stat as Sasuke and the Raikage isn't that fast until he goes into his SSJ2 mode. Bunta is even faster.



you mean base jiraiya right ? 
because sennin mod jiraiya is 10 time faster than sasuke


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## dungsi27 (Apr 23, 2010)

The key of this battle this the period before Jiraiya enters sage mode.Raikage must find a way to end the battle during this period,and Jiraiya in turn must find a way to survive this period.Once Jiraiya has entered sage mode there is not gonna be any chance for Raikage.
About how Jiraiya would survive the pre-sage mode period,he has plenty options.He can use summonings and clones to distract RAikage,or he can Yomi Numa Raikage to slow him down.His hair tech would be useful too.He can also hide inside one of his frog until the tech is completed.


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## MSAL (Apr 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Jiraiya has the exact speed stat as Sasuke and the Raikage isn't that fast until he goes into his SSJ2 mode. Bunta is even faster.
> 
> Also, a few things?
> A. That wasn't Kisame. It was a 'useless for combat' Zetsu clone
> B. The Raikage had his Raiton shroud activated for that..



Raikage is also fast in base, although  obviously and logically he wouldnt be as fast as in Shroud mode, as it stimulates his synapses and his nerves which in turn gives him the greater speed.

Bunta is a Gigantic summon. One step of his can cover a huge distance, so its stupid to compare in this way.

Zetsu is the one who is not a front line fighter. There is nothing to say his clones are not. In fact they are clearly front line fighters, justr not as powerful as the original.

Also the Raikage came in at the end of that fight for the Lariat, and he was saving his brother and bloodlusted. He wouldve been that way regardless of the adversary.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 1, 2010)

Jiraiya takes this 

Jiraiya is stronger and has more skill

As far as speed goes we haven't seen the Raikage in anime so I can't comment on that 

4 those of u who think Raikage is stronger 
Since when is this


stronger than this 


Sage mode trumps Raiton shroud Raikage in strength 

4 those who think Jiraiya won't be able 2 react 2 Raikage's speed 
This is a guy who probably witnessed Hirashin no Jutsu from his student the 
4th Hokage who in my opinion is faster than Raikage 
He would have probably have developed a jutsu 2 counter something like that

Killing a platoon of 50 in the blink of an eye is faster than speedblitzing a slow Akatsuki member and a partially blind Sharingan user

Raikage is faster than Jiraiya but not so much to where it is an overwhelming advantage bcuz Jiriaya speed feats increase when in Sage Mode 

Even Pain said if Jiraiya discovered his secret Pain would be beaten and
Pain>Raikage

Also as far as durability goes, Sasuke had no weapons besides Amaterasu( which Jiriaya is able 2 put out while Raikage had to lose a limb 2 it) to really test that

Against Jiraiya, he'd have to avoid Oodama Rasengan, Sage Art:Bathing Oil, Frog Transformation, Toad Mouth Trap, Dark Swamp, Frog Song, and Sage Mode attacks.

A lot of people think Raikage wouldn't even give Jiraiya a chance to transform to Sage Mode
But u r forgetting Pain tried to do the same thing 
I juss see Jiriaya using summoning jutsu and a barrier to distract Raikage while tryin to transform

While u could argue that Raiton shroud Raikage could demolish Jiraiya with the lightning armor Jiriaya could use Needle Jizo to protect his body from those attacks 

While Raikage is strongly known 4 his brute strength and speed, I don't see him defeating Jiriaya as he is outstrengthed, outwitted, and outskilled


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