# kaguya vs raditz



## AlligatorBalls (Jul 16, 2014)

Who wins this?


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

You're joking right? 

Raditz whips out his dick and a planet level rape commences.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 16, 2014)

Sorry about that, man. I never knew it was a bad matchup. Saw this matchup in this one site i visited and thought it would be cool to make it a topic on here ^_^


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 16, 2014)

Go back to Spergbattles.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 16, 2014)

Good man. We're cool.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

Keep your eye on the birdie


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## Lurko (Jul 16, 2014)

Oh how original.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 16, 2014)

The moon blast yeld small planet level iirc.(and i do)
Kaguya is large continent/small moon+ to potentially moon+.
She wins due to bfr Anyway.(unless this is anime/composite raditz)


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> The moon blast yeld small planet level iirc.(and i do)
> Kaguya is large continent/small moon+ to potentially moon+.
> She wins due to bfr Anyway.(unless this is anime/composite raditz)



Funny.


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## Lurko (Jul 16, 2014)

I thought Hagoromo and up were in the Zettatons due to the moon feat.


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> I thought Hagoromo and up were in the Zettatons due to the moon feat.



Apparently, it got nerfed back down to exatons.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> I thought Hagoromo and up were in the Zettatons due to the moon feat.


They take it away from us
We just know that she is stronger than someone that can create a moon in his death bed and that she can ripp Exaton characters apart, only standing by.(aka mad)
again, She is faster than cannon raditz and can casually teleport him away.


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## Lurko (Jul 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Apparently, it got nerfed back down to exatons.



How?? Made a moon then sent it into space..


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

Same reason as the other nerfs, planet size and Nardo hate I'd assume 

I don't see why the moon feat would change


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## Iwandesu (Jul 16, 2014)

Yeah,nardo hate is a pretty good start.
Some bs about we not being able to prove he dashed the moon out of orbit which happened while i was out. (Cuz  my might aura would obviously change everything )
Thus the best is assume she can create the moon via telekines and call the day.
I could honestly be wrong about the argument,though (it was like, 2 months ago and i was absent)


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> How?? Made a moon then sent it into space..



Back. To. Exatons. 

Exatons = Moon level.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Back. To. Exatons.
> 
> Exatons = Moon level.


Moving a moon for several kilometers after creating it= zettatons 
I feel like reading the whole thing Again cuz what i recall about the argument seems too weak to be worthy a nerf.


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## Cave Jansen (Jul 16, 2014)

I have a question.

What happened to Fluttershy?


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Jul 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> They take it away from us
> We just know that she is stronger than someone that can create a moon in his death bed and that she can ripp Exaton characters apart, only standing by.(aka mad)
> again, She is faster than cannon raditz and can casually teleport him away.



So cannon radiz is Mach 81 still based on this statement if this the case then kahuna should win due to bfr


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

Cave Jansen said:


> I have a question.
> 
> What happened to Fluttershy?



He fluttered off somewhere


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## Lurko (Jul 16, 2014)

Flutter just got bored fluttering people.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jul 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> They take it away from us
> We just know that she is stronger than someone that can create a moon in his death bed and that she can ripp Exaton characters apart, only standing by.(aka mad)
> again, She is faster than cannon raditz and can casually teleport him away.





iwandesu said:


> Yeah,nardo hate is a pretty good start.
> Some bs about we not being able to prove he dashed the moon out of orbit which happened while i was out. (Cuz  my might aura would obviously change everything )
> Thus the best is assume she can create the moon via telekines and call the day.
> I could honestly be wrong about the argument,though (it was like, 2 months ago and i was absent)





iwandesu said:


> Moving a moon for several kilometers after creating it= zettatons
> I feel like reading the whole thing Again cuz what i recall about the argument seems too weak to be worthy a nerf.


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## trance (Jul 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Moving a moon for several kilometers after creating it= zettatons



Prove he moved it. :superhero



> I feel like reading the whole thing Again cuz what i recall about the argument seems too weak to be worthy a nerf.



Pretty sure you don't decide that. :ignoramus


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Prove he moved it. :superhero



It's been stated that he created it with Chibaku Tensei which pulled a moon's worth of earth from the planet and then sent it into orbit. Still it's off-panel though but it's been confirmed several times now.


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## Aphelion (Jul 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> They take it away from us
> We just know that she is stronger than someone that can create a moon in his death bed and that she can ripp Exaton characters apart, only standing by.(aka mad)
> again, She is faster than cannon raditz and can casually teleport him away.





iwandesu said:


> Yeah,nardo hate is a pretty good start.
> Some bs about we not being able to prove he dashed the moon out of orbit which happened while i was out. (Cuz my might aura would obviously change everything )
> Thus the best is assume she can create the moon via telekines and call the day.
> I could honestly be wrong about the argument,though (it was like, 2 months ago and i was absent)





MusubiKazesaru said:


> Same reason as the other nerfs, planet size and Nardo hate I'd assume
> 
> I don't see why the moon feat would change



Don't listen to the haters guys.

Kaguya casually solos the dbzverse with her super l33t h4x dimension powerz and omgwtfbbq super ultra planetary mach 428298349237209842939482934 mind rape tsukyomi.  They're just jealous :ignoramus


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Don't listen to the haters guys.
> 
> Kaguya casually solos the dbzverse with her super l33t h4x dimension powerz and omgwtfbbq super ultra planetary mach 428298349237209842939482934 mind rape tsukyomi.  They're just jealous :ignoramus



Of course she does, was that ever even a question?


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## Gunstarvillain (Jul 16, 2014)

Till she tanks anything higher than a 10 tails father killing BB I see no reason why he couldn't.


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## Cave Jansen (Jul 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Flutter just got bored fluttering people.



Aight.

Good to know he's not kill.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 16, 2014)

nah

the truth is that Flutter went to Ukraine to fight for mother Russia


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## Lurko (Jul 16, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Prove he moved it. :superhero
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure you don't decide that. :ignoramus



Why you hate on the verse? Did it rustle you?


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## Red Angel (Jul 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> You're joking right?
> 
> Raditz whips out his dick and a planet level rape commences.



To be fair, his hair does compensate for someting


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## Sherlōck (Jul 17, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> nah
> 
> the truth is that Flutter went to Ukraine to fight for mother Russia



He died drinking too much Vodka.


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## Visa (Jul 17, 2014)

The flutter hate here is strong....


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## Lurko (Jul 17, 2014)

That's because Flutter flutters people.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

Flutter's a real G.


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## tanman (Jul 17, 2014)

I'm not terribly familiar with the how OBD works because I don't lurk much.

But how does the amount of strength that would be required for Hagoromo to create a moon have anything to do with a fight that Kaguya is in? It's not as if Hagoromo has unlimited telekinesis. He has an attack that pulls everything towards a fixed point. And who knows if it even takes close to that amount of force to counter it. We can't even scale Kaguya to that because she was defeated by it.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

Quick question: How drunk are you right now?


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## tanman (Jul 17, 2014)

Well, it's just past noon where I am, so...


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

1. Hagoromo doesn't have telekinesis.
2. Hagoromo most likely used a Shinra Tensei to blast the moon into orbit.
3. That requires small planet level energy.
4. It's raw energy and Kaguya has much more than Hagoromo.
5. She's more than capable of doing the same thing.
6. She lost to her sons because they sealed her, not because they beat her ass into the ground.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

2. Eh, like Madara did, he likely just flew into the exosphere and left the gravitational core there.
Doesn't matter since the mass still has to move the 380000km.

4-5: We kinda assume she can. Not in AoE, sure, but she can definitely put that much energy into stuff like the bone attack.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

It doesn't matter where the gravitational core is. It can release that much energy in the form of suction.
And Hagoromo created it.


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## tanman (Jul 17, 2014)

2. But it would certainly make a big difference if that mass were a tiny orb instead of a Moon. 

4-5. Ok, I guess. That seems crazy, but I guess I'll just have to get used to it.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

Check post above.


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## tanman (Jul 17, 2014)

Can we really say the suction of a special ability is indicative of the actual force output of the special ability user? In the context of the series, I think it makes sense that CT (or a similarly haxx ability) would be the only method for anyone in the Narutoverse to output that kind of force.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 17, 2014)

tanman said:


> Can we really say the suction of a special ability is indicative of the actual force output of the special ability user? In the context of the series, I think it makes sense that CT (or a similarly haxx ability) would be the only method for anyone in the Narutoverse to output that kind of force.



I'm pretty sure things don't work that way, you can even compare the levels of CT we've seen in the series, compare Pein's to Madara's and Madara's to Hagoromo's. The output depends on the user.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 17, 2014)

Energy is energy is energy.
It isn't hax if it uses energy - energy that in this case comes from Hagoromo.

Which reminds me.
Obito said that Hagoromo reshaped the planet with the Sword of Nunoboko. That is most likely him repairing the damage caused by the moon creation.
He was on his deathbed, but eh, Fagoromo shenanigans.

And nah.
Hagoromo has the planet reshaping hype.
Juubi has the continent overturning hype.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 17, 2014)

tanman said:


> Can we really say the suction of a special ability is indicative of the actual force output of the special ability user? In the context of the series, I think it makes sense that CT (or a similarly haxx ability*) would be the only method for anyone in the Narutoverse to output that kind of force*.


CT is not hax.
Also Current Nardo frs>> juubi Bjd >>>>>>nagato CT.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 17, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> CT is not hax.
> Also Current Nardo frs>> juubi Bjd >>>>>>nagato CT.



Current Naruto never used FRS, it was BDRS and YRS


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## Iwandesu (Jul 17, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But...there's no such thing as suction.


gravity bind kinda sucks stuff for all which is worthy.


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## Lurko (Jul 17, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> CT is not hax.
> Also Current Nardo frs>> juubi Bjd >>>>>>nagato CT.



Naruto's punches alone are stronger.


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## tanman (Jul 18, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm pretty sure things don't work that way, you can even compare the levels of CT we've seen in the series, compare Pein's to Madara's and Madara's to Hagoromo's. The output depends on the user.



OK. I'm definitely willing to accept that.



But I'm having trouble accepting that the energy that the user can output through other methods is *equivalent* to the energy outputed through Chibaku Tensei. After all, this isn't Dragon Ball or Toriko. The combatants can't just put all their energy into one attack. They have a set number of techniques with their own specific limitations. That is to say: Toriko flattening a mountain sized building with a Kugi Punch certainly can't be considered equivalent to Sasuke flattening a mountain sized building with Kirin, right? Because Sasuke can't output that kind of energy with any other method, right? Simply assuming that since Hagoromo can use Chibaku Tensei to make a Moon, he could deliver that much energy in an actual attack kind of completely ignores the mechanics of the verse. I understand simplifying things. But that seems like a vast oversimplification.


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## Sablés (Jul 18, 2014)

^Indeed. kagura mainly uses her massive quantities of chakra to travel between far away spaces and not raw power as with the Bijuu and alike.


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## Lurko (Jul 18, 2014)

I like Kaguya's style, it's different better than lol explosion everywhere.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

tanman said:


> But I'm having trouble accepting that the energy that the user can output through other methods is *equivalent* to the energy outputed through Chibaku Tensei.



if that tehnique is stronger than Chibaku Tensei, then yes, we can safely say that he can output at least an equivalent to that amount of energy

and it's not Chibaku Tensei that was brought up here, but the energy used to push the moon into the orbit



> Sasuke flattening a mountain sized building with Kirin, right? Because Sasuke can't output that kind of energy with any other method, right?



current Sasuke kind of can

he can output much more energy than Kirin with his generic slashes actually


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## Red Angel (Jul 18, 2014)

So in other words Raditz wins then?

Good


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 18, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> Edit:
> 
> Never mind, suction exists, it's just that the common way people tend to view it is wrong.
> 
> ...



Eh, it's just a regular gravitational pulling force. Nothing to do with pressure.


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## tanman (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> if that tehnique is stronger than Chibaku Tensei, then yes, we can safely say that he can output at least an equivalent to that amount of energy



OK. If that technique is stronger. Problem being that we don't have a stronger technique from Kaguya.



DarkTorrent said:


> and it's not Chibaku Tensei that was brought up here, but the energy used to push the moon into the orbit



What I argued earlier is that there's no way he pushed the entire Moon into orbit instead of simply starting the gravitational pull when CT was already in orbit.
Backtrack on my posts a bit. Basically, I just said it's the least feasible option based on what was described.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jul 18, 2014)

And that is where we shove Occam's Razor in your face.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

tanman said:


> Kaguya has Chou Shinra Tensei?
> When was that confirmed?



Kaguya is just an amped version of Hagoromo, who is an amped version of Madara, who is an amped version of Nagato

simple straight forward powerscaling



> Well, as I think you understand based on my previous comments, I don't believe there's an invisible asteroid belt.
> 
> What I was clearly indicating was that the mass of rocks being pulled by Chibaku Tensei can't really be translated into an estimation of Kaguya's energy output with other techniques, or even Hagoromo's for that matter.



and I think we already agreed that if the attack is stronger then yeah, it can be scaled



> considering the Naruto universe characters can't actually output their energy, no matter how large, without a proper medium to do so



um... elaborate

not really understanding what you are referring to as "medium" here


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## tanman (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Kaguya is just an amped version of Hagoromo, who is an amped version of Madara, who is an amped version of Nagato
> 
> simple straight forward powerscaling



Wait, what does that have to with what I said?





DarkTorrent said:


> and I think we already agreed that if the attack is stronger then yeah, it can be scaled



Right.





DarkTorrent said:


> um... elaborate
> 
> not really understanding what you are referring to as "medium" here



A technique. Kaguya needs an attack through which she can actually weaponize that kind of power, if we're to believe she has it.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

tanman said:


> Wait, what does that have to with what I said?



everything?



> A technique. Kaguya needs an attack through which she can actually weaponize that kind of power, if we're to believe she has it.



she does have it considering she is stronger than Juubi-less Hagoromo, whose powers come from her

there can be no "to believe" here


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## Iwandesu (Jul 18, 2014)

tanman said:


> Wait, what does that have to with what I said?


Kaguya can replicate any of hagoromo's jutsu on a stronger way.
Which includes the CST.
Which is a tecnique that can feasibly be scalled to CT.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

What canon proof or statements point towards kaguya being able to use the six paths techniques? She uses her rinnegan for dimension shifting and infinite tsukyuomi and that's about it for now.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

the fact that Madara, who can use them, turned into her?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> the fact that Madara, who can use them, turned into her?



Madara didn't turn into her kaguya used his body as a medium for revival and killed him(that's why his truth seeking balls and limbo clones got dispelled). 

It was not implied or stated anywhere that she gained all the techniques and knowledge he had either. We should wait for her to show some paths first before taking this leap of faith.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 18, 2014)

Just like how we know sm madara has amaterasu and izanagi.
Nardo is all about genetic. And Kaguya is the prime of at least 4 kekkei genkais.(Senju , Uchiha, hyuuga and Kaguya )
Gedo Mazou by itself is juubi skin and needs paths to be summoned.
Kaguya= prime Juubi
So yeah, any non exclusive stuff unlike kamui, crow and kawarimi 2.0 can feasibly be applied to her.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Madara didn't turn into her kaguya used his body as a medium for revival and killed him(that's why his truth seeking balls and limbo clones got dispelled).



that is your interpretation

what we saw was Madara transforming into her

given that... what reasons are there for us to assume that she doesn't have his powers?



> It was not implied or stated anywhere that she gained all the techniques and knowledge he had either. We should wait for her to show some paths first before taking this leap of faith.



so... you're saying that even though only someone who unlocked the Rinnegan and it's abilities can become Kaguya there are no implications that she has the Rinnegan abilities

you are saying that even though she displayed other bloodline abilities like the Dead Bone Pulse that weren't a part of Madara's arsenal, she doesn't have the abilities of the Rinnegan despite being in a body of a Rinnegan user and being a Rinnegan user herself and being the source of the Rinnegan bloodline

did I get it right?

and on the subject of not displaying a path's ability... she actually did - she already used Preta path a.k.a chakra absorbation


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Just like how we know sm madara has amaterasu and izanagi.


It does not take sage mode for madara to use izanagi(he used before taking hashirama's SM) and there is no canon proof of him using amaterasu. The whole you need amaterasu and tsukyuomi to use susanoo thing(which i believe only applied to itachi since he was the only one with it at the time that databook entry was made) is bunk since sasuke can use it with amaterasu and enton. All you need to do is unlock your MS ocular powers in both eyes.



> Nardo is all about genetic. And Kaguya is the prime of at least 4 kekkei genkais.(Senju , Uchiha, hyuuga and Kaguya )


It is all about genetics if you wanna be not fodder/special i guess . But anyway she is the reason those clans abilities exist sure but that does mean we go around giving her every mokuton, ocular jutsu, and shikotsumyaku related move known to date. Should we give the juubi all of the 9 tailed beast powers just because it's chakra is the reason they exist?



> Gedo Mazou by itself is juubi skin and needs paths to be summoned.


Yeah gedo mazo is the juubi(kaguya+divine tree) without chakra(basically a husk). You need the rinnegan to summon it though madara noted you can control it if you have senju and uchiha dna. But what does this got to do with kaguya have all the six paths?



> Kaguya= prime Juubi


Yup that's right.



> So yeah, any non exclusive stuff like kamui, crow and kawarimi 2.0 can feasibly be applied to her.


Why is kamui exclusive? No where was it stated to be exclusive to obito. Why do you mean by crow? Sasuke's space shifting is his and his alone your right kaguya do not get that. Just like she should not get all of these other shinobi's moves just because she is the progenitor of chakra and basically their KKG. Basically i'm saying we should wait for/stick to feats in cases like this.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that is your interpretation
> 
> what we saw was Madara transforming into her
> 
> given that... what reasons are there for us to assume that she doesn't have his powers?


So your saying madara transformed into her...dude madara was not transforming due to his own will BZ/kaguya was forcibly overriding him. If he was like "well now i will turn into this!" then it would be easier to believe he carried over his moves or whatever. But he got completely taken over while screaming in agony and replaced by someone new.

Because what emerged after the whole process was a totally different person? Kaguya is not madara or a extension she is a whole new character. Saying kaguya should be able to use susanoo and shinra tensei is completely based off assumptions not canon showings or facts.





> so... you're saying that even though only someone who unlocked the Rinnegan and it's abilities can become Kaguya there are no implications that she has the Rinnegan abilities


She has rinnegan abilities like her dimension shifting and MT but that is not a reason to just lump *ALL* the rinnegan moves onto her. We don't have direct showings/statements or anything just what we think here...it's not convincing enough.



> you are saying that even though she displayed other bloodline abilities like the Dead Bone Pulse that weren't a part of Madara's arsenal, she doesn't have the abilities of the Rinnegan despite being in a body of a Rinnegan user and being a Rinnegan user herself and being the source of the Rinnegan bloodline


Her using the dead bone pulse is because of her unique moveset her possession of the KKG so no madara has nothing to do with that. She has the abilities of the rinnegan but not every single one just the ones she shown, she is not in madara's body she took it over and he ceased to exist come on man. She is the source but that does not equate to having everything that came later down the line. Hagoromo was known as the sage of the six paths...how do we know he did not create the basis and usage of those techniques? Why does she have to have them?



> did I get it right?


Well in a sense yes...i am saying without tight and strong hints, statements or anything besides "well she started this so she get all of this" it's not gonna wash with some people who like feats and showings over assumption.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> the fact that Madara, who can use them, turned into her?



Not sure if you've read the manga, but in any case, I don't want to spoiler. Seems like you haven't read it. Anyways, Madara never turned into her, by transforming into a new form that is Kaguya. He somehow like Sacrificed himself in order to make the infinite Tsukuyomi take effect. Kaguya somehow appeared because of a catalyst from Madara and was revived.

Furthermore, even Hashirama was unable to sense Madara's, The MADARA, chakra because he died... proving that you were wrong in saying that Madara transformed into Kaguya (what?).


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## BigIsaac (Jul 18, 2014)

So assuming that Kaguya does inherit all of Madara's moves, would that put her above Radditz?
If so, how much higher do you have to go to reach the next wall? Nappa? Scouter Vegeta?


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> So your saying madara transformed into her...dude madara was not transforming due to his own will BZ/kaguya was forcibly overriding him. If he was like "well now i will turn into this!" then it would be easier to believe he carried over his moves or whatever. But he got completely taken over while screaming in agony and replaced by someone new.
> 
> Because what emerged after the whole process was a totally different person? Kaguya is not madara or a extension she is a whole new character. Saying kaguya should be able to use susanoo and shinra tensei is completely based off assumptions not canon showings or facts.



this is like saying that if Orochimaru possesed Sasuke he wouldn't be able to use his Sharingan abilities




> She has rinnegan abilities like her dimension shifting and MT but that is not a reason to just lump *ALL* the rinnegan moves onto her. We don't have direct showings/statements or anything just what we think here...it's not convincing enough.



what is not convincing enough is your reasons for not powerscaling her from a character that became her



> Her using the dead bone pulse is because of her unique moveset her possession of the KKG so no madara has nothing to do with that. She has the abilities of the rinnegan but not every single one just the ones she shown, she is not in madara's body she took it over and he ceased to exist come on man. She is the source but that does not equate to having everything that came later down the line. Hagoromo was known as the sage of the six path...how do we know he did not create the basis and usage of those techniques. Why does she have to have them.



because it's not something he developed?

if it was it wouldn't be something that Madara or Nagato could simply unlock, it would have required actual hand seals, etc




> Well in a sense yes...i am saying without tight and strong hints, statements or anything besides "well she started this so she get all of this" it's not gonna wash with some people who like feats and showings over assumption.



because being in a body of a Rinnegan user, being a Rinnegan user herself, being the source of all abilities, and already displaying some of those abilities, Preta path included, isn't a "strong hint"

there is a thing called powerscaling, which by the way works on an *assumption* that a stronger character can replicate the feats of a weaker one, provided he has the means


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Not sure if you've read the manga, but in any case, I don't want to spoiler. Seems like you haven't read it. Anyways, Madara never turned into her, by transforming into a new form that is Kaguya. He somehow like Sacrificed himself in order to make the infinite Tsukuyomi take effect. Kaguya somehow appeared because of a catalyst from Madara and was revived.
> 
> Furthermore, even Hashirama was unable to sense Madara's, The MADARA, chakra because he died... proving that you were wrong in saying that Madara transformed into Kaguya (what?).




*Spoiler*: __


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Madara's validity as a villain is over, which is why Kishimoto ended up killing him  in order to make a new villain truly deserving of the title take over his place by replacing him with her through methods of making him undergo as a sacrifice for her revival.. Through Hagoromo, Masashi Kishimoto ended Madara's chances of being final villain and holds no purpose, therefore he was omitted from taking part in any future story line events by being made a sacrifice to kaguya. Hence Madara not being able to sense his chakra any further. After he commandeered Obito's final villain role, he has done nothing, but try to obtain hype and validity [killing Sasuke/Naruto/Tobirama/Hashirama]. Now, Hagoromo stated that the power even above him is his mother, who isn't like him at all. He went on to deny that Indra [Madara] was in the wrong, and went on to say that the curse of hatred we have been forced to watch again and again is in actuality, Kaguya's will. This has simply killed his vibe as a villain, and him getting pummeled by Might Gai, Obito, Naruto, and Sasuke isn't helping him. Him seeing Kaguya and stating time for everything to become one has ended any chances of him being villain. 

Kaguya took over him as it was his own foolishness and desire of obtaining his wish only by sacrificing himself to revive her that his wish would have come to fruition.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

that's nice and all but this has nothing to do with anything

Konoha Library is that way --->


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## Iwandesu (Jul 18, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Madara sucks as a villain


The end


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> this is like saying that if Orochimaru possesed Sasuke he wouldn't be able to use his Sharingan abilities


Orochimaru gaining his vessels abilities is a plus that comes along with his unique possession technique though. Kaguya overriding someone is not that technique so we can't just grant her that.






> what is not convincing enough is your reasons for not powerscaling her from a character that became her


Maybe because in becoming her his existence was erased? Everything madara has died with him except some legs that got cut off. He is not in kaguya and she cannot use his moves.





> because it's not something he developed?
> 
> if it was it wouldn't be something that Madara or Nagato could simply unlock, it would have required actual hand seals, etc


Who says they couldn't just unlock what he figured out/discovered. Most of the six path techs don't take handseals anyway hagoromo just could made some fancy eye techs and they later resurfaced in madara's rinnegan. It is not impossible and a alternative to just saying kaguya has them and that's the reason why hagoromo can do them.






> because being in a body of a Rinnegan user, being a Rinnegan user herself, being the source of all abilities, and already displaying some of those abilities, Preta path included, isn't a "strong hint"


I think you mean using the body of a rinnegan user to come back. Being the source of all abilities is not a strong hint to having every single move that came in the future. There is no panel of kaguya using preta path.



> there is a thing called powerscaling, which by the way works on an *assumption* that a stronger character can replicate the feats of a weaker one, provided he has the means


Kaguya has not shown those means on panel yet. What your doing is not like six paths of pain preta path's usage of the path can be scaled to nagato. What your doing is saying something like because kaguya has dead bone pulse she should have all of kimimaro's dances in her arsenal because she is the source of his KKG. It's pretty wonky.

Anyway we might have to agree to disagree no hard feelings at all on my part. I know what your saying but it just seems pretty forced and premature to me. We haven't seen everything from her so we will see what further developments have in store.


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## Lurko (Jul 18, 2014)

Oh don't get why people are bitching over Kaguya being scaled to Hagoromo.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that's nice and all but this has nothing to do with anything
> 
> Konoha Library is that way --->



Yes, it does have everything to do with what I said. 


That's nice, those scans you provided were really regurgitating the same stuff I said in the form of text by reinforcing the notion that, Madara was a sacrifice for her, kaguya's revival just like I wrote in that so called non important comment. Thus died because Kishimoto did not see him fit as a consistent villain any longer.

The endless non-important banter cult forum not amounting to anything is that way >>>>>>>


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Orochimaru gaining his vessels abilities is a plus that comes along with his unique possession technique though. Kaguya overriding someone is not that technique so we can't just grant her that.



it's posession that works by the same principle, i.e. the one possesing can use the power of the possesed



> Maybe because in becoming her his existence was erased? Everything madara has died with him except some legs that got cut off. He is not in kaguya and she cannot use his moves.



unless you can prove that his powers and abilities were tied with his existence or soul or whatever this means jack shit



> Who says they couldn't just unlock what he figured out/discovered. Most of the six path techs don't take handseals anyway hagoromo just could made some fancy eye techs and they later resurfaced in madara's rinnegan. It is not impossible and a alternative to just saying kaguya has them and that's the reason why hagoromo can do them.



Occam's Razor





> I think you mean using the body of a rinnegan user to come back. Being the source of all abilities is not a strong hint to having every single move that came in the future.



see... there needs to be a reason for us to not assume that she can do everything she has the means to do

you are not providing them

the only legit reason there could be are hand heals and the knowledge on how to use them, but we are talking about abilities that do not require them, so it can't be that



> There is no panel of kaguya using preta path.



preta path is chakra absorbation...



> Kaguya has not shown those means on panel yet. What your doing is not like six paths of pain preta path's usage of the path can be scaled to nagato. What your doing is saying something like because kaguya has dead bone pulse she should have all of kimimaro's dances in her arsenal because she is the source of his power. It's pretty wonky.



no what I'm saying that she has the abilities that are granted by the Rinnegan

dances is a stronger case of something that is developed



> Anyway we might have to agree to disagree no hard feelings at all on my part. I know what your saying but it just seems pretty forced and premature to me. We haven't seen everything from her so we will see what further developments have in store.



which is why we usually use powerscaling to fill the gaps where feats are lacking

why is this different?


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## Lurko (Jul 18, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Yes, it does have everything to do with what I said.
> 
> 
> That's nice, those scans you provided were really regurgitating the same stuff I said in the form of text by reinforcing the notion that, Madara was a sacrifice for her, kaguya's revival just like I wrote in that so called non important comment. Thus died because Kishimoto did not see him fit as a consistent villain any longer.
> ...



Dude wrong section with that.


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## Lurko (Jul 18, 2014)

Btw just pointing this out but this chapter it looked like Kaguya was using St to blow Naruto's clones away.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

Welp guess i'm back



DarkTorrent said:


> it's posession that works by the same principle, i.e. the one possesing can use the power of the possesed


Orochimaru's- Takes the body and can use whatever KKG, hiden and unique abilities the shinobi being taken over had. Can also extend his life.

Kaguya's- Take over a suitable body to bring herself back.

That's all the canon info we have on the effects of their "rebirths". Kaguya does not gain powers from hers man.





> unless you can prove that his powers and abilities were tied with his existence or soul or whatever this means jack shit


Logic all his techs stopped because he could not maintain them anymore...he died did you not see him expand beyond belief before she emerged. I wonder why i should believe your claim of madara morphing into kaguya?





> Occam's Razor


It's easy to say this sure but it still does change the matter that the necessary(or should be)facts are lacking. 







> see... there needs to be a reason for us to not assume that she can do everything she has the means to do
> 
> you are not providing them
> 
> the only legit reason there could be are hand heals and the knowledge on how to use them, but we are talking about abilities that do not require them, so it can't be that


How about no proof of her having knowledge on them? Or what about people developing new things she never got the chance to? Does she have kotoamatsukami, kamui, amaterasu, susanoo, tsukyuomi, enton because she is the source of the sharigan(and stated to have the power of the sharigan by hagoromo). I am sure you see how this can be consider fanfic and pretty ridiculous man.





> preta path is chakra absorbation...


There are many form of chakra absorption i mean samahada don't have preta path. Preta path also uses the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal to take in chakra kaguya has not shown that move.





> no what I'm saying that she has the abilities that are granted by the Rinnegan


Not just the abilities ALL of them just because she is the beginning of it....does she have limbo shadows too? She has her own unique rinnegan usage that she seem to focus on. Nothing saying she possessed everything because she started it.



> dances is a stronger case of something that is developed


Well susanoo is something that has a case of being developed too(first seen kaguya's grandson indra and needing to unlock both mangekyo eye powers to use) but kaguya should have that just because right? Do we scale her stats off of sasuke's PS while were at it? 





> which is why we usually use powerscaling to fill the gaps where feats are lacking
> 
> why is this different?


This is not just scaling stats or a logically stronger move to a weaker moves better showings DT. This is *giving* her moves to boost her status while completely ignoring the fact she might just have whatever power she possessed and more things were inherited/created using her power as the basis. I could understand if it was said she possessed every single ocular power and it got reawakened in people down the line. But this is not the case.



Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Btw just pointing this out but this chapter it looked like Kaguya was using St to blow Naruto's clones away.


That was her motion when she uses her chakra fist move she even did it a few chaps ago while getting rid of his clones.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Kaguya does not gain powers from hers man.



so you are saying that she's not even a Juubi jin anymore?



> Logic all his techs stopped because he could not maintain them anymore...he died did you not see him expand beyond belief before she emerged. I wonder why i should believe your claim of madara morphing into kaguya?



this doesn't adress what I've said

you've basically repeated yourself



> It's easy to say this sure but it still does change the matter that the necessary(or should be)facts are lacking.
> 
> How about no proof of her having knowledge on them? Or what about people developing new things she never got the chance to?



again... Madara unlocked it even though he had no knowledge of it (unless of course you are implying that Hagoromo wrote how to cast ST on the tablet), Nagato deffinitely didn't have any knowledge about it, yet he could still use it... unless of course you believe that Madara somehow gave the knowledge to him from the tablet along with the eyes

again... you are not providing anything solid for us to assume that it is something that was developed, when there are reasons to assume that it was not



> kamui



kamui is just a diluted version of her ST, she has an advanced version



> tsukyuomi



she was the first one to use Infinite Tsukiyomi... so yes



> I am sure you see how this can be consider fanfic and pretty ridiculous man.



not when it gets confirmed with every chapter that she does have some of the abilities she is the source of



> There are many form of chakra absorption i mean samahada don't have preta path. Preta path also uses the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal to take in chakra kaguya has not shown that move.



Occam's Razor again



> Not just the abilities ALL of them just because she is the beginning of it....does she have limbo shadows too? She has her own unique rinnegan usage that she seem to focus on. Nothing saying she possessed everything because she started it.



except her showing every ability little by little with every chapter



> Well susanoo is something that has a case of being developed too(first seen kaguya's grandson indra and needing to unlock both mangekyo eye powers to use) but kaguya should have that just because right? Do we scale her stats off of sasuke's PS while were at it?



no we scale her from a weaker character's stats that have similar powers as her



> This is not just scaling stats or a logically stronger move to a weaker moves better showings DT. This is *giving* her moves to boost her status while completely ignoring the fact she might just have whatever power she possessed and more things were inherited/created using her power as the basis. I could understand if it was said she possessed every single ocular power and it got reawakened in people down the line. But this is not the case.



it actually is about scaling stats... scaling Kaguya's dc from Hagoromo's

and it's not giving her a random move, it is giving her a move that she logically should be capable of for the reasons already stated by me several times

this is what everything is about



> That was her motion when she uses her chakra fist move she even did it a few chaps ago while getting rid of his clones.



except if it was we would have seen the chakra fists themselves


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> so you are saying that she's not even a Juubi jin anymore?


Kaguya is the juubi according to BZ she goes beyond just being it's jinchuriki. But this has nothing to do with gaining every move madara knew.





> this doesn't adress what I've said
> 
> you've basically repeated yourself


I have given you multiple reasons and explanations but you don't wanna listen(despite all of them being legit and logical based on what we know). You just keep insisting i should believe he turned to kaguya and gave her all his things. 





> again... Madara unlocked it even though he had no knowledge of it (unless of course you are implying that Hagoromo wrote how to cast ST on the tablet), Nagato deffinitely didn't have any knowledge about it, yet he could still use it... unless of course you believe that Madara somehow gave the knowledge to him from the tablet along with the eyes


Madara awakened the rinnegan by chance(using hashirama's meat to heal his wounds) so how hard is it to believe he just found out how to use six path moves one day by chance. 

Madara is the same guy that filled obito with black rods to control him later in life. Him messing and giving nagato some way to unlock the moves is not that crazy. Or nagato probably just manifested them while in extreme danger(it was implied this happened when he killed a rock chunin and sasuke suffered something similar when he was back into a corner by haku).




> again... you are not providing anything solid for us to assume that it is something that was developed, when there are reasons to assume that it was not


The only reason i have seen you put is because she is the beginning of these KKG and whatever else but that does not translate to having all the moves. How is that anymore solid than my suggestions?





> kamui is just a diluted version of her ST, she has an advanced version


Based on? Kamui interacting with her dimensions does not make it a diluted version. The fact he refers to it not being his dimension(it's hers) and warping between them takes a huge amount of chakra means they are not related closely at all.





> she was the first one to use Infinite Tsukiyomi... so yes


These techniques are also not related except by name i mean just look at the effects for proof. One puts you in a dream state once you see it's light and the other makes you suffer days worth of torture illusions in a instant. Tsukyuomi means moon reader so IT being named after it is symbolic if anything.





> not when it gets confirmed with every chapter that she does have some of the abilities she is the source of


It comes in gradually i guess sure but uh we can't see the future...i mean if she shows every KKG and hiden technique ever then you would be cooking with gas but not right now.





> Occam's Razor again


So wait...your saying samahada and anything that absorbs chakra uses the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal? You serious. You do know that is blatantly going against on panel canon right?





> except her showing every ability little by little with every chapter


But now all of it which is why i am promoting. She does not have everything in her arsenal. You could at least wait before you make these claims.





> no we scale her from a weaker character's stats that have similar powers as her


This can end up leading to faulty dealings though. We have never done this with ninjutsu or genjutsu before why now? Unless she shows the exact move she is getting scaled from then it should not happen.





> it actually is about scaling stats... scaling Kaguya's dc from Hagoromo's


That's fine. Saying she can use CST and CT is a whole other beast though. Can't scale like that especially in the _Naruto_ series.



> and it's not giving her a random move, it is giving her a move that she logically should be capable of for the reasons already stated by me several times
> 
> this is what everything is about


Your reason are basically she started the thing that the power came from far later on down the line so she can have it. That's not concrete logic and people can speak against it because it is not fact. Whatever the general consensus is i will go with since i am only one person(it's happened before) but lets not be so absolute with our speech when were both arguing over something up for interpretation. 





> except if it was we would have seen the chakra fists themselves


>Same motion
>Clones getting erased in the same fashion as the last
>Casually move used in a close up panel

That attack was those fist my man. It being ST has no on panel basis


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## Iwandesu (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Kaguya is the juubi according to BZ she goes beyond just being it's jinchuriki. *But this has nothing to do with gaining every move madara knew.*
> 
> I have given you multiple reasons and explanations but you don't wanna listen(despite all of them being legit and logical based on what we know). You just keep insisting i should believe he turned to kaguya and gave her all his things.
> 
> ...


a banquet of occam's razor.
we have reasons to believe her chakra absorption is rinnegan related.
ST is invisible. it can't be on panel, if there aren't punches and the character has rinnegan, is a fair assumption that he is using ST


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 18, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> a banquet of occam's razor.
> we have reasons to believe her chakra absorption is rinnegan related.
> ST is invisible. it can't be on panel, if there aren't punches and the character has rinnegan, is a fair assumption that he is using ST



Feats of her using Blocking Technique Absorption Seal on panel?

You can tell when ST is being used on panel stop that lie. According to you guys though she don't even need to use it on panel. She just got the highest form of it automatically she has a rinnegan.


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## BigIsaac (Jul 18, 2014)

My 2 cents:
I agree that just being the original user of a power doesn't mean that she _automatically_ possesses all abilities associated with that power. It's quite possible that some of these abilities came about through random mutation over the centuries. 

However, considering that she _is_ the origin of those KKG, it stands to reason that she could just recreate the missing abilities as she pleases. After all, even if certain abilities came about through mutation, then those can only ever be relatively minor tweaks (in terms of execution, not necessarily function) on abilities she already has.
And since Black Zetsu is supposedly part of Kaguya's original consciousness, she is probably aware of all the changes to the KKG that came about while she was gone.

On a different note, wouldn't it make more sense for Kaguya to have _more_ abilities for her KKG than the current-age users? With how old these clans are, there's only two possibilities - either their bloodline got slowly diluted by mixing with other clans or they engaged in massive inbreeding. I imagine neither of those would be very optimal for preserving the power of a clan's innate ability.

The show even brings this up by having the sage of 6 paths say that Kaguya is stronger than him, meaning the power of the bloodline already got diluted slightly after just 1 generation.


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## Lurko (Jul 18, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Feats of her using Blocking Technique Absorption Seal on panel?
> 
> You can tell when ST is being used on panel stop that lie. According to you guys though she don't even need to use it on panel. She just got the highest form of it automatically she has a rinnegan.



It's not a lie if people disagree with you man, it's just his opinion.


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## SSMG (Jul 19, 2014)

Radditz was killed by an attack that didnt even fully destroy a mountain... juubis beam kills him.. kaguya is overkill.


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## KaiserWombat (Jul 19, 2014)

Ugh

This thread was well over 3 pages ago, I'm just going to lock it now to make it concrete


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