# Itachi VS Pain



## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 25, 2010)

Battlefield: Konohagakure.

Starting Distance: 30 ft.

Mindset: Itachi is bloodlusted, Pain is IC.

Knowledge: Itachi knows of everything Human, Hungry and Animal Realm can do, their strengths and their weaknesses - he has no info on the other Realms.

Restrictions: No Gedo Mazo.

Special Conditions: Itachi is well, and his eyes will not go blind, or even close to it, any time during the battle. 

Itachi starts with Susano'o activated, in full armor. Assume that Itachi's movement is not in the least restricted by Susano'o, he is allowed to run, jump and that he can use all non-MS jutsu freely while holding it in place, including Shunshin no Jutsu.

Yahiko Realm has just used CST, so he has three minutes of cool-down before he can use his abilities again.


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## DarkRasengan (Mar 25, 2010)

So this is pretty much EMS itachi, id say he ends up taking out around 4 bodies, but pain devises a way to get rid of susano, maybe with either human or hungry ghost realm, and wins with high difficulty.
This is a really close fight with Special conditions and knowledge.


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## Angoobo (Mar 25, 2010)

This has beeen made countless times, and whatever knowledge is given to Itachi, he ends up losing.


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## Goobtachi (Mar 25, 2010)

Itachi is healthy, not getting blind..he wins (especially with the knowledge)...MS techniques are OHKO techniques, no pain is gonna survive a blow from those(and this has been done like 1000000000000 times)

In b4 shitstorm...


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## Angoobo (Mar 25, 2010)

^^And Itachi lost pretty badly each time whatever the conditions and restrictions were( reasonable ones ofc)


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## Xion (Mar 25, 2010)

Magical Fairy Itachi (healthy + EMS) would lose regardless.

This debate is timeless, but it's always the same result. He simply does not have the offensive nor defensive power to win, especially when Pain can chakra suck his two main MS attacks.


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## Angoobo (Mar 25, 2010)

^^This, and it's not like Itachi can spam MS techniques, he still got very poor stamina...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2010)

I believe the "healthy" part makes up for his stamina. Itachi can make _Kage Bunshin_ that use the Mangyekou, which spells doom for Pein in my humble opinion.


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## Yagura (Mar 25, 2010)

The Six Paths of Pain is to much for any one man.

Excluding Rikudo of course.


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## Black Sabbath II (Mar 25, 2010)

Deva Pain and Asura pain alone stand a chance. the other bodies get taken out in a matter of seconds. What Pain needs to avoid is splitting his forces up. Keep ALL BODIES TOGETHER AT ALL TIMES. If he does that he pulls off the win. If any body gets away from the group it's game over for them. Itachi has 1000001 ways of killing a person in less than a second. Hell he took out Kakashi with the utmost ease and matched sasuke when he was sick and dying.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 25, 2010)

I cant believe some of the responses ive seen does everybody realize itachi can run in tsuasano thanks to the op and pein has to cool down? the last time this happend naruto was having a field day with all of peins bodies until the cool down finish, now to me i dont see whatz stopping itachi from genjutsu hungry realm with regular genjutsu and just sealing everybody in sight thanks to the cool down and they cant be brought back to life because the sword of tosuka is sealing everybody it pierces like seriously how could itachi lose? he can run inside tsasuno and its reach is insane.


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## Euraj (Mar 25, 2010)

With those ads, I'd say Itachi would kill five out of six Paths successfully. The problem is, even if Susano-O isn't killing his movements, it's killing his chakra, especially if he cakes Amaterasu and Kage Bunshin on top of it. Let's look at what he has to handle with these guys before going after the most precious Deva Realm. 


Fight off re-spawning Hell Hound.
Defend against one-man artillery force, Asura Realm.
Find Chimera summon and get the Animal Realm out of it.
Watch his back to make sure Human Realm doesn't sneak up and rip his soul out.
Maneuver around Preta Realm to make sure he doesn't just drink all of his attacks.
Snipe Naraka Realm to stop him from making all of his efforts useless.

That seems like longer than a mere three minutes to me, especially if he only has half knowledge of whom he's fighting. As I said before, that's a lot of Jutsu to use as well, and keep in mind, Itachi has even less stamina than Sasuke. Then, on top of that crap, he has to put up with Chibaku Tensei. Nah, I don't see him getting through it.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 25, 2010)

Euraj said:


> With those ads, I'd say Itachi would kill five out of six Paths successfully. The problem is, even if Susano-O isn't killing his movements, it's killing his chakra, especially if he cakes Amaterasu and Kage Bunshin on top of it. Let's look at what he has to handle with these guys before going after the most precious Deva Realm.
> 
> 
> Fight off re-spawning Hell Hound.
> ...


I think your forgetting the sword of totsuka. All he has to do is make 1 kagebushin and send it to genjutsu hungry realm and run and swipe everything in site with the sword nothing is coming back from that.


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## Euraj (Mar 25, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> I think your forgetting the sword of totsuka. All he has to do is make 1 kagebushin and send it to genjutsu hungry realm and run and swipe everything in site with the sword nothing is coming back from that.


I doubt that would work. Genjutsu works by controlling the senses. The most Itachi would be able to do with a Genjutsu is shield his vision and turn off one of the cameras. Itachi's eye techniques can't shut down his entire body like the Toad sages.

Anyhow, I guess the Sword of Totsuka would be pretty useful. That is, if the Pain bodies just stood together in one place while he's going crazy.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 25, 2010)

Euraj said:


> I doubt that would work. Genjutsu works by controlling the senses. The most Itachi would be able to do with a Genjutsu is shield his vision and turn off one of the cameras. Itachi's eye techniques can't shut down his entire body like the Toad sages.
> 
> Anyhow, I guess the Sword of Totsuka would be pretty useful. That is, if the Pain bodies just stood together in one place while he's going crazy.



he doesnt have to shut down the body he can simply mindrape him lolz and starting distance is 30 feet and im sure the sword of totsuka is at least 15 20 ft so i dont see why he wont be able to slash them .


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## Bloo (Mar 25, 2010)

Why even make this thread? It's an argument that never ends and never will. Both of the characters died without giving much knowledge of their capabilities or in a bloodlusted state. And of course Pain has the overall edge because of his feat of destroying Konoha, but a pissed off Itachi with Susanoo is dangerous to ANYONE. This is just a battle that should never be discussed.


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## Euraj (Mar 25, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> he doesnt have to shut down the body he can simply mindrape him lolz and starting distance is 30 feet and im sure the sword of totsuka is at least 15 20 ft so i dont see why he wont be able to slash them .


Did you not read my post? Maybe not. I sure as hell can't understand the -snip- typing you just fired at me there.


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## Bloo (Mar 25, 2010)

Euraj said:


> I doubt that would work. Genjutsu works by controlling the senses. The most Itachi would be able to do with a Genjutsu is shield his vision and turn off one of the cameras. Itachi's eye techniques can't shut down his entire body like the Toad sages, **instead it can put the victim who wields the sharingan in a coma for an entire week.*
> 
> Anyhow, I guess the Sword of Totsuka would be pretty useful. That is, if the Pain bodies just stood together in one place while he's going crazy.



Fixed it for you, although it has no relevance to this fight.


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## T-Pein™ (Mar 25, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> he doesnt have to shut down the body he can simply mindrape him lolz and starting distance is 30 feet and im sure the sword of totsuka is at least 15 20 ft so i dont see why he wont be able to slash them .



Yeah xcept Pein has no mind,
Pein takes this one.
Itachi's Sharingan is pretty much useless against Rinnegan,
Funfact- Did you guys know Pein can Summon the bodies out too?
Itachi's second rate eye techniques were never shown to work against the superior Rinnegan.
I n fact they didnt even work against Sasuke's sharingan .....


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 25, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Yeah xcept Pein has no mind,
> Pein takes this one.
> Itachi's Sharingan is pretty much useless against Rinnegan,
> Funfact- Did you guys know Pein can Summon the bodies out too?
> ...



lolz nice evidence =] can we see some scans that says the sharingon doesnt work on the rinnengon mr autotune? and i luv how u forget to add the fact that itachi wasnt even trying to kill sasuke >.> pein fanboys are the worst im not saying pein isnt  a top tier ninja but you guys act like he can win no matter what the circumstance is which is just ridiculous to me.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2010)

Itachi would probably Deactivate Susano'o at the start of this match as there is no reason for him to use it like that as it would just drain his chakra and life force causing him to loose quicker as he lacks the chakra to make use of it the same way Sasuke does.

After that the info is useful, but it isn't enough as it doesn't cover Deva or Hell Realm to give Itachi a huge advantage. Itachi's eyes not going blind is a big advantage though and him being healthy is also a bigger advantage then he would normally have.

So i'm going to say Itachi would probably end up being able to take out 4-5 Bodies and then he would be defeated ether by being ganged up on, chakra exhaustion, or one of Pain's Finishing moves like CST or CT. 

I don't think Itachi could beat Pain under any scenario though he would probably come close if given full knowledge and prep-time.


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## T-Pein™ (Mar 25, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> lolz nice evidence =] can we see some scans that says the sharingon doesnt work on the rinnengon mr autotune? and i luv how u forget to add the fact that itachi wasnt even trying to kill sasuke >.> pein fanboys are the worst im not saying pein isnt  a top tier ninja but you guys act like he can win no matter what the circumstance is which is just ridiculous to me.



Hey whatevs
Theres no info stating that it does in fact work on the Rinnegan,
Therefore it doesn't?
see where im going with this?
Yeah 
can we see some scans that says the sharingon does work on the rinnengon mr lelouchprince?
Oh you don't have one 
Its obvious the Rinnegan is way more powerfull than the sharingan,
Afterall 
The sharingan is a lame version of the rinnegan.
How do I know this?
Even Madara wants the Rinnegan...


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## Qozy (Mar 26, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Hey whatevs
> Theres no info stating that it does in fact work on the Rinnegan,
> Therefore it doesn't?
> see where im going with this?
> ...


This is the fact according to your logic:
Sharingan > Rinnegan. Why? Because Orochimaru wanted Sharingan so bad.


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## T-Pein™ (Mar 26, 2010)

Qozy said:


> This is the fact according to your logic:
> Sharingan > Rinnegan. Why? Because Orochimaru wanted Sharingan so bad.



Nice try,
Xcept Orochimaru was not a Rinnegan User 
Do you understand what I'm saying to you right now?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Lets not imitate faulty logic. Just be polite, point it out, and grit your teeth.


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Hey whatevs
> Theres no info stating that it does in fact work on the Rinnegan,
> Therefore it doesn't?
> see where im going with this?
> ...



Nah, the sharingan isn't a lame version of the rinnegan, it's a mutated form -snip- ...

Madara wants the rinngena because of its ability to read things, it has nothing to do with strenght....

And you seem to forget that a rinnegan user is madara's bitch....

besides, a fighter ability isn't all about his doujutsu, itachi is way smarter, way faster....and has OHKO jutsu that can instantly kill pain bodies, he also has legendary items who can seal bodies without any possible ressurection...

GG Pain


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## Angoobo (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Nah, the sharingan isn't a lame version of the rinnegan, it's a mutated form -snip- ...
> 
> Madara wants the rinngena because of its ability to read things, it has nothing to do with strenght....
> 
> ...



Did you forget HGR absorbs your so called 'OHKO'jutsu(Amaterasu a OHKO jutsu?)


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Did you forget HGR absorbs your so called 'OHKO'jutsu(Amaterasu a OHKO jutsu?)



Proof?
Amaterasu can burn chakra, and HGR uses a chakra barrier to absorb the attack....


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Hey whatevs
> Theres no info stating that it does in fact work on the Rinnegan,
> Therefore it doesn't?
> see where im going with this?
> ...



He wants it to read the scriptures you need regular sharingon ,ms ,and the rinnengon so what are you talking about? and i dont have to provide anything the sharingon has work on everybody in the manga so far including other sharingon users so what makes pein so special that it wouldnt work on him? thats up to you to prove and jariyas frog song worked on pein so clearly he is not immune to genjutsu its actualy a weakness and further more you are not reading the op the starting distance is at 30 feet tsasuno sword is huge its easily 20 ft if not more and it enables itachi to run need i say more? and deva has to recharge i dont see pein lasting more then 2 mins in this paticular scenario


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## Angoobo (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Proof?
> Amaterasu can burn chakra, and HGR uses a chakra barrier to absorb the attack....



Amaterasu burns shit, it couldn't even give Karin decent tan


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Amaterasu burns shit, it couldn't even burn Karin's flesh



Yet, it burnt Jiraiya's unescapable technique and Raikage's arm


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Yet, it burnt Jiraiya's unescapable technique and Raikage's arm



and 8 tailed kyubi =] but why even bring up amatarasu? itachi slashes everything in sight thanks to the op pein fans seriously need to give it a rest in this scenerio he cannot win


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## Senjuclan (Mar 26, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I believe the "healthy" part makes up for his stamina. Itachi can make _Kage Bunshin_ that use the Mangyekou, which spells doom for Pein in my humble opinion.



1. Healthy =/= full of stamina.
2. Kage bunshin that use MS? Where has that ever been shown?
3. What would all those kage bunshin do when Pein use shira tensei and blows them away? POOF!!!
4. Itachi could never defeat three Pein paths. Animal, hungry and human would beat him easily because they can spam jutsu while he can't



godtachi said:


> Proof?
> Amaterasu can burn chakra, and HGR uses a chakra barrier to absorb the attack....



Without even trying to argue the statement that amaterasu can burn chakra, do you realize that preta's barrier seals ninjutsu? Amaterasu is a ninjutsu, it WILL get sealed


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Healthy =/= full of stamina.
> 2. Kage bunshin that use MS? Where has that ever been shown?
> 3. What would all those kage bunshin do when Pein use shira tensei and blows them away? POOF!!!
> 4. Itachi could never defeat three Pein paths. Animal, hungry and human would beat him easily because they can spam jutsu while he can't



read the op deva is recharging and the op makes itachi to good running in tsasuno from 30 ft? and pein is ic mindstate he will not win this one.


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Healthy =/= full of stamina.
> 2. Kage bunshin that use MS? Where has that ever been shown?
> 3. What would all those kage bunshin do when Pein use shira tensei and blows them away? POOF!!!
> 4. Itachi could never defeat three Pein paths. Animal, hungry and human would beat him easily because they can spam jutsu while he can't
> ...



You got to convince me that this barrier isn't made of chakra, otherwise it gets burnt

And it doesn't matter, since Ama os to fast for HGR to activate his barrier in time...


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## Angoobo (Mar 26, 2010)

^^Yh, and you believe Ama is 'unavoidable', 'as hot as the sun'...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 26, 2010)

One slice of Susano'o's Sword can eliminate Animal, Hungry and Human. 

Curious to see the reply, and what people think my next move will be.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> One slice of Susano'o's Sword can eliminate Animal, Hungry and Human.
> 
> Curious to see the reply, and what people think my next move will be.



ummmm walking causualy to a recharging deva and poke his forhead with totsuka? lol


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> You got to convince me that this barrier isn't made of chakra, otherwise it gets burnt
> 
> And it doesn't matter, since Ama os to fast for HGR to activate his barrier in time...



Jiraiya has already sealed the black flames of amateratsu in part one with a C-rank sealing jutsu. Pain’s absorption jutsu is a sealing jutsu of the highest quality that is said to absorb any jutsu made of chakra.

Fat Pain is fast enough to absorb a giant rasengan of a Jiraiya attacking him head on. And Amateratsu takes time to kill the target, Fat Pain will be alright.


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> Jiraiya has already sealed the black flames of amateratsu in part one with a C-rank sealing jutsu. Pain?s absorption jutsu is a sealing jutsu of the highest quality that is said to absorb any jutsu made of chakra.
> 
> Fat Pain is fast enough to absorb a giant rasengan of a Jiraiya attacking him head on. And Amateratsu takes time to kill the target, Fat Pain will be alright.



1. Nah, Jiraiya sealed what left of the flames, and the target wasn't Jiraiya

2. Comparing a giant rasengan with ama, for which raikage used Raiton shroud to avoid...  you're not serious


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## Angoobo (Mar 26, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> One slice of Susano'o's Sword can eliminate Animal, Hungry and Human.
> 
> Curious to see the reply, and what people think my next move will be.



One slice of Susano'o is immediately countered by HGR's absorption.
So, what's your next move?


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> 1. Nah, Jiraiya sealed what left of the flames, and the target wasn't Jiraiya
> 
> 2. Comparing a giant rasengan with ama, for which raikage used Raiton shroud to avoid...  you're not serious



1.He sealed the flames, which is the thing that burns and hurst when you're hit by amateratsu. 

2.If you have a sealing jutsu like Pain's, you don't need to avoid it, that's the point. Pain didn't have to move out of the way when Jiraiya attacked him with a giant rasengan, he's fast enough to absorb it. Amateratsu can't kill anyone instantly.



Atlantic Shinobi said:


> One slice of Susano'o's Sword can eliminate Animal, Hungry and Human.
> 
> Curious to see the reply, and what people think my next move will be.



If Deva protects the other bodies with ST, I don't see how Susanoo can kill them.

Deva in front of susanoo, and Fat Pain behind. Fat Pain absorbs, Deva repels the sword.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> 1.He sealed the flames, which is the thing that burns and hurst when you're hit by amateratsu.
> 
> 2.If you have a sealing jutsu like Pain's, you don't need to avoid it, that's the point. Pain didn't have to move out of the way when Jiraiya attacked him with a giant rasengan, he's fast enough to absorb it. Amateratsu can't kill anyone instantly.
> 
> ...



Read the op itachi can simply make a kage bushin and let it genjutsu hungry realm who attempted to block tsasuno and then seall all the bodies  at once with one swipe and deva is recharging he isnt repelling anything


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Read the op itachi can simply make a kage bushin and let it genjutsu hungry realm who attempted to block tsasuno and then seall all the bodies  at once with one swipe and deva is recharging he isnt repelling anything



Fat Pain doesn't need to look at Itachi's eyes or fingers in order to see. All Pain needs is to have one body look at the situation (Hell Realm would be a good choice) and all of them will know what to do. And when Itachi is using susanoo, can he make a kage bushin?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> Fat Pain doesn't need to look at Itachi's eyes or fingers in order to see. All Pain needs is to have one body look at the situation (Hell Realm would be a good choice) and all of them will know what to do. And when Itachi is using susanoo, can he make a kage bushin?


thats assuming pein is aware of itachis genjutsu and even so if tha kage bushin notices him looking down he just hits him with taijutsu instead.
according to the op it says itachi can run and jump freely with tsasuno and cast non ms jutsu whille he's using tsasuno


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> 1.He sealed the flames, which is the thing that burns and hurst when you're hit by amateratsu.
> 
> 2.If you have a sealing jutsu like Pain's, you don't need to avoid it, that's the point. Pain didn't have to move out of the way when Jiraiya attacked him with a giant rasengan, he's fast enough to absorb it. Amateratsu can't kill anyone instantly.
> 
> ...


Nah, he absorbed the jutsu before it touched him, show me a scan where he CAN absorb a jutsu after being hit...


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> thats assuming pein is aware of itachis genjutsu and even so if tha kage bushin notices him looking down he just hits him with taijutsu instead.
> according to the op it says itachi can run and jump freely with tsasuno and cast non ms jutsu whille he's using tsasuno



This is not Pain+Fat Pain vs Itachi, you know? This is Pain, the six bodies. An Itachi kage bushin resorting to taijutsu on Asura or Human Realm? 



godtachi said:


> Nah, he absorbed the jutsu before it touched him, show me a scan where he CAN absorb a jutsu after being hit...



Here he started absorbing Naruto’s sage chakra after he touched him:

Naruto is inside his barrier. If the flames of amateratsu are touching him, he will absorb them, I’m sorry if you can’t accept it.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> This is not Pain+Fat Pain vs Itachi, you know? This is Pain, the six bodies. An Itachi kage bushin resorting to taijutsu on Asura or Human Realm?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No the kage bushin is simply a distraction for hungry realm any other pein is getting swipe by the totsuka sword that simple if they attempt to attack the bushin itachi can just pierce them and the bushin can dodge asura realm projectiles or itachi can just protect it.


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> No the kage bushin is simply a distraction for hungry realm any other pein is getting swipe by the totsuka sword that simple if they attempt to attack the bushin itachi can just pierce them and the bushin can dodge asura realm projectiles or itachi can just protect it.




If Itachi tries to pierce a body who isn’t Fat Pain, his Susanoo will be absorbed and the sword will be repelled. And it will be hard to pierce Fat Pain because that will be the body who will be behind him all the time while the other bodies wait for Itachi to collapse of lack of chakra.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> If Itachi tries to pierce a body who isn?t Fat Pain, his Susanoo will be absorbed and the sword will be repelled. And it will be hard to pierce Fat Pain because that will be the body who will be behind him all the time while the other bodies wait for Itachi to collapse of lack of chakra.



huh? how will his tsasuno be absorb when the kage bushin will be attacking fat pein? i think your forgetting itachii can run while inside the tsasuno like the op said and keep in mind the range of the totsuka sword itachi will simply be picking off every realm while the kagebushin deals with fat pein.


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> huh? how will his tsasuno be absorb when the kage bushin will be attacking fat pein? i think your forgetting itachii can run while inside the tsasuno like the op said and keep in mind the range of the totsuka sword itachi will simply be picking off every realm while the kagebushin deals with fat pein.




The chances of Fat Pain being alone are nil, and I already told you that he will be behind susanoo. And when Itachi tries to pierce the bodies they will just get out of the way or Deva will ST the sword. 

For example:
Deva, Hell Realm and Human Realm in front of Itachi.
Fat Pain, Asura and Animal Realm behind him (a kage bushin defeating them??? Try something else).


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> The chances of Fat Pain being alone are nil, and I already told you that he will be behind susanoo. And when Itachi tries to pierce the bodies they will just get out of the way or Deva will ST the sword.
> 
> For example:
> Deva, Hell Realm and Human Realm in front of Itachi.
> Fat Pain, Asura and Animal Realm behind him (a kage bushin defeating them??? Try something else).



ii ima try to explain it again it woulda helped if you read the op, anyway itachi starts at 30 ft away deva has to recharge he isnt "st" anything, itachi rushes at the army of pein like a spartan inside his tsasuno, on the way he makes a kagebushin hides it behind the shield remeber the sword of totsuka is atleast 15 20 feet so he preps to strike deva, first off idk how fast u think preta is but i set it up like this so theres no way out of it, now he attempts to strike deva fat pein attemps to intervine by jumping infront (fat pein not any other realm because that would be oc this is ic pein) He gets suprised kicked in his head by kage bushin and deva gets swiped.Now while fat pein is floored the rest of them are like target practice *itachi plays duck hunt with the rest of realms gg?


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> ii ima try to explain it again it woulda helped if you read the op, anyway itachi starts at 30 ft away deva has to recharge he isnt "st" anything, itachi rushes at the army of pein like a spartan inside his tsasuno, on the way he makes a kagebushin hides it behind the shield remeber the sword of totsuka is atleast 15 20 feet so he preps to strike deva, first off idk how fast u think preta is but i set it up like this so theres no way out of it, now he attempts to strike deva fat pein attemps to intervine by jumping infront (fat pein not any other realm because that would be oc this is ic pein) He gets suprised kicked in his head by kage bushin and deva gets swiped.Now while fat pein is floored the rest of them are like target practice *itachi plays duck hunt with the rest of realms gg?




-You?re assuming Itachi has the chakra to make a kage bushin while his susanoo is activated. Have you forgotten how consuming susanoo is?
-Deva is fast enough to dodge the sword, he dodged the FRS at point blank.
-Deva doesn?t need Fat Pain in order to deal with susannoo. As long as he has ST, he will survive and prolong the match until Itachi can no longer maintain susanoo. In character Deva repels the attacks that come at him, unless he doesn?t have his powers like in the Naruto fight.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 26, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> One slice of Susano'o is immediately countered by HGR's absorption.
> So, what's your next move?



Hungry might be too slow to absorb it, that sword is damn fast you know!

What's your next move?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> -You’re assuming Itachi has the chakra to make a kage bushin while his susanoo is activated. Have you forgotten how consuming susanoo is?
> -Deva is fast enough to dodge the sword, he dodged the FRS at point blank.
> -Deva doesn’t need Fat Pain in order to deal with susannoo. As long as he has ST, he will survive and prolong the match until Itachi can no longer maintain susanoo. In character Deva repels the attacks that come at him, unless he doesn’t have his powers like in the Naruto fight.



lols this is what i been saying all the long read the op >.> itachi is healthy and can cast jutsu while in tsasuno and deva is powerd down he has to recharge this isnt a regluar itachi vs pein thread if it wwas i woulda neva took this approach lolz




Atlantic shinobi said:


> Itachi VS Pain
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


__________________


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> lols this is what i been saying all the long read the op >.> itachi is healthy and can cast jutsu while in tsasuno and deva is powerd down he has to recharge this isnt a regluar itachi vs pein thread if it wwas i woulda neva took this approach lolz
> 
> 
> 
> __________________



The only jutsu Itachi can use while in susanoo is amateratsu (it doesn’t change much). Even healthy Itachi’s stamina is not large enough to make kage bushins left and right when he’s using a jutsu such as susanoo capable of draining all of his chakra. 

So, this is a regular Itachi vs Pain, the only difference is that Itachi will maintain his susanoo for some more minutes. And Deva needs 5 seconds of recharge in between every ST, true, but it’s more than enough to repel susanoo’s attacks, he might even dispel susanoo's arm while he's repeling the sword due to the proximity.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> The only jutsu Itachi can use while in susanoo is amateratsu (it doesn’t change much). Even healthy Itachi’s stamina is not large enough to make kage bushins left and right when he’s using a jutsu such as susanoo capable of draining all of his chakra.
> 
> So, this is a regular Itachi vs Pain, the only difference is that Itachi will maintain his susanoo for some more minutes. And Deva needs 5 seconds of recharge in between every ST, true, but it’s more than enough to repel susanoo’s attacks, he might even dispel susanoo's arm while he's repeling the sword due to the proximity.


lolz my friend your still not reading it there saying itachi can use regular jutsu inside tsasuno and there restricting the ms techniqes and there saying deva has just use cbt and needs 3 minutes to recharge and there also saying itachi is healthy and will not go blind at anytime during this fight,and i only said 1 kagebushing not spam


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## ZE (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> lolz my friend your still not reading it there saying itachi can use regular jutsu inside tsasuno and there restricting the ms techniqes and there saying deva has just use cbt and needs 3 minutes to recharge and there also saying itachi is healthy and will not go blind at anytime during this fight,and i only said 1 kagebushing not spam



Okay, so he can?t use ST at the beginning of the fight? Then Itachi may have the advantage, it depends on whether or not Deva is fast enough to avoid being hit by the sword. But if we consider that against Naruto Deva together with Hell Realm was the most well protected body, I doubt Nagato will let Itachi get close to Deva. 

And I know Itachi is allowed to use jutsus while in susanoo. The problem is that if he does, the jutsu will hit susaanoo, not the enemy. Remember? Susanoo is made of chakra and is around him, katons and the like have no way of going through with susanoo activated.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> Okay, so he can?t use ST at the beginning of the fight? Then Itachi may have the advantage, it depends on whether or not Deva is fast enough to avoid being hit by the sword. But if we consider that against Naruto Deva together with Hell Realm was the most well protected body, I doubt Nagato will let Itachi get close to Deva.
> 
> And I know Itachi is allowed to use jutsus while in susanoo. The problem is that if he does, the jutsu will hit susaanoo, not the enemy. Remember? Susanoo is made of chakra and is around him, katons and the like have no way of going through with susanoo activated.



Yeah but you have to remember tsasuno is sealing bodies with 1 pierce and also its not like dodging a rasengon , if u do even manage to dodge the sword is still right infront of your face remeber tsasuno is huge so itachi doesnt have to be right infront of pein to be effective and punish the recharge time. That along with 1 kage bushin i believe is to much for pein he needs deva to make this match.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> Okay, so he can?t use ST at the beginning of the fight? Then Itachi may have the advantage, it depends on whether or not Deva is fast enough to avoid being hit by the sword. But if we consider that against Naruto Deva together with Hell Realm was the most well protected body, I doubt Nagato will let Itachi get close to Deva.
> 
> And I know Itachi is allowed to use jutsus while in susanoo. The problem is that if he does, the jutsu will hit susaanoo, not the enemy. Remember? Susanoo is made of chakra and is around him, katons and the like have no way of going through with susanoo activated.



No, the jutsu won't hit Susano'o, it will come out through the shroud. I should have added this point to the OP. Editing!


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Not really, it's just people ask a lot from a _healthy Itachi_ when we've only ever seen an Itachi who Zetsu thought was _severely injured._ So some people, like yourself, advocate the _lol severely injured isn't that different_ policy and other people, like myself, think _damn, he was thought to be severely injured when doing all of that? He must be beast when healthy._


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## Goobtachi (Mar 26, 2010)

ZE said:


> And I know Itachi is allowed to use jutsus while in susanoo.* The problem is that if he does, the jutsu will hit susaanoo, not the enemy.* Remember? Susanoo is made of chakra and is around him, katons and the like have no way of going through with susanoo activated.



No need to EDIT OP, sasuke was able to cast amaterasu on Danzou while inside susano'o


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

godtachi said:


> No need to EDIT OP, sasuke was able to cast amaterasu on Danzou while inside susano'o



^this might be actual prove that amatarasu has no travel time and is instantanious


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> Hungry might be too slow to absorb it, that sword is damn fast you know!
> 
> What's your next move?



It sone feat was hitting someone not even paying attention to or caring about it. Hungry Ghost intercepted a close range FRS and dodged the entirety of the Inuzukua. Kiba alone is a 4.5 in speed.

He's damn fast


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> ^this might be actual prove that amatarasu has no travel time and is instantanious



We've seen things travel inside and out of Susanoo before, sorry


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> We've seen things travel inside and out of Susanoo before, sorry



would you care to name what?


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> would you care to name what?



Zetsu dived right through it once.

We've seen Amaterasu chasing Sasuke in the Itachi fight. We saw the raikage dodge it. We saw Bee's position change when it travelled to him. We know it 'converges' on targets...not the same as 'appears instantly on.'

Hungry Ghost has been stated to absorb ALL ninjutsu and chakra based techniques. Sorry, but that includes Susanoo and Amaterasu


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Zetsu dived right through it once.
> 
> We've seen Amaterasu chasing Sasuke in the Itachi fight. We saw the raikage dodge it. We saw Bee's position change when it travelled to him. We know it 'converges' on targets...not the same as 'appears instantly on.'
> 
> Hungry Ghost has been stated to absorb ALL ninjutsu and chakra based techniques. Sorry, but that includes Susanoo and Amaterasu



Well i already proved itachi would win in this scenario but im intrested to know why ppl are so confident preta realm can absorb amatrasu and tsasuno first off amatarasu only showed travel time when itachi changed the target and it only missed because sasuke couldnt keep his eye on the raikage that was heavily emphasis by the manga but  why else do you seem to think amatrasu travels?  even in tho show when itachi used it the first time it showed to appear on sasukes flames rather then travel to it........... second can you please provide me a scan where it says tsasuno is a ninjutsu? because preta can only absorb ninjutsu and a person he touches.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Well i already proved itachi would win in this scenario but im intrested to know why ppl are so confident preta realm can absorb amatrasu and tsasuno first off amatarasu only showed travel time when itachi changed the target and it only missed because sasuke couldnt keep his eye on the raikage that was heavily emphasis by the manga but  why else do you seem to think amatrasu travels?  even in tho show when itachi used it the first time it showed to appear on sasukes flames rather then travel to it........... second can you please provide me a scan where it says tsasuno is a ninjutsu? because preta can only absorb ninjutsu and a person he touches.



You 'proved it?' No, you didn't. You posted a lot of nonsense in broken English, that's all.
Amaterasu is shown to travel just about every time it's used now, given the Raikage physically dodged it.

Oh, and Preta can absorb based on skin contact, as seen:

Hey, look. SKIN CONTACT!

And Gottheim's translation of Databook 3
There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. *The materialized chakra* shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

Zetsu says while watching that Amaterasu 'converges' on a target. Not appears instantly. Converges. Moves to. 

And Preta is said to, and I quote, be able to absorb *any* chakra or ninjutsu based technique.

Now deal with it. You're wrong.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> You 'proved it?' No, you didn't. You posted a lot of nonsense in broken English, that's all.
> Amaterasu is shown to travel just about every time it's used now, given the Raikage physically dodged it.
> 
> Oh, and Preta can absorb based on skin contact, as seen:
> ...



You obviously didnt read the op or my old post because in this debate i brought up nothing about amatrasu read the old post then get back to me i dont feel like repeating myself.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Lightysnake you may be confused. Amaterasu has long thought to spontaneously form wherever the eye is focused so long that it within a close enough range. However, if the target is moving at high speeds or is out of range the flame will not form on them and thus will travel to wherever the Uchiha eyes' are focused. There is a similar misconception with Sharingan Genjutsu being that the user doesn't have to look at your eyes, you merely have to see his for it to take effect.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

And I should care what is 'long thought' compared to what actually has evidence behind it because...? 

And exactly. 'Travel to.' If they were instant, they would not need to travel


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

The evidence is not on your side.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

Visually seeing it travel? Naaaah.
Wording making it clear it moves towards the target? Naaaaaah....

Try harder, Sol


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

No here has ever denied those two points. However, it forming _where the eyes are focused_ and not _emerging from the eyes_ is the argument here. Please don't be condescending if you don't understand the argument.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

If anything it comes down to the user. Zetsu says what the Tsukuyomi came down to was the power and skill of the two Shinobi with the eyes as tools.

However, I will not believe the Rinnegan, the strongest dojutsu is the only one incapable of breaking a Genjutsu. The Sharingan speaks for itself and Ao mentions his own eye broke the genjutsu placed on the fourth Mizukage...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Ao wasn't under the Genjutsu, however. He merely identified it. The Byakugan's insight is far, far superior to the Rinnegan.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

@lighty your forgetting itachi wasnt trying to kill sasuke so its up to debate wether itachi let go himself or sasuke actualy broke out of it


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

He was trying to force Sasuke to his limits as well. There is no evidence that Tsukuyomi was weak considering his goal was to take out Orochimaru as well


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Except for Madara's words that is.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 26, 2010)

well it depends i guess. if itachi goes in with close range taijutsu... he gets stomped. deva could land a hit on kakashi showing he is comparable to a guy who match itachi. human realm reacted to/block HM jiraiyas attack. asura reacted to kakashi as well and has the power to take off jiraiyas arm. hell realm easily beat 3.5 taijutsu ebisu. hell realm has shown the ability to react to SM naruto and kiba/mom. simply put too much skill would just smash straight through itachi. 

lol itachi doesnt make more than 1 bunshin at a time so that wont help. exploding jutsu will be seen through just as kakashi did with his sharingan (both see chakra) or just tanked/absorbed/deflected. amaterasu/katons get absorbed. only chance is tsukiyomi/genjutsu. due to it being cast on 1 at a time and due to range complications that it wont hit past 5 meters any genjutsu thats not tsukiyomi will be pointless. tsukiyomi could hit however it attacks the victims mind causing mental anguish so it would hit nagato directly right? well apparently the range is 5 meters and without the range to hit that wouldnt work. plus he cant really spam the jutsu anyway.

susano is his only hope. now it can be argued that bansho tenin just pulls itachi into a trap/position for hungry ghost to absorb from the blindspot. and a small hole will allow any one of the realms to get in and beat this really wekaened itachi.

pain ftw


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Kakashi matched a clone with less chakra than a shadow clone. Deva didn't have better Taijutsu, he repulsed him with Shinra Tensei. Itachi doesn't make more than one bunshin at a time _when fighting a single opponent_. Normal Genjutsu could work and Tsukuyomi may effect Nagato. Amaterasu could be absorbed if target and Preta Realm, otherwise it wouldn't as Preta lacks the speed and reflexes to intercept it. Pulling Susano'o in with Bansho Tenin would result in almost all of the realms dying as a single successful swipe would cause huge losses for Pein.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 26, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Kakashi matched a clone with less chakra than a shadow clone. Deva didn't have better Taijutsu, he repulsed him with Shinra Tensei. Itachi doesn't make more than one bunshin at a time _when fighting a single opponent_. Normal Genjutsu could work and Tsukuyomi may effect Nagato.



chakra=/=skill/speed which is all that matters in my comparison.


deva kicked and kakashi dodged and in 1 fluid motion he ducked and used a doton. with kakashis eyesight on deva the whole time with both hands off the ground kakashi still got stabbed by deva. and i said comparable not necessarily superior.


then raikiri apparently avoided.

interesting. i saw him engaging with kurenai and kakashi (more so kakashi but kurenai was still there trying to help) and he still didnt do as you say. he was against chiyo, sakura, naruto, and kakashi and he didnt do as such. nothing to suggest that he can even use TKB. but fact remains that such actions would be OOC for him and have never even been displayed in open conbat. and technically pain is 1 guy.

and please dont just state claims that have already been countered. genjutsu doesnt work because.... then a response like genjutsu would work without backing up really anything or refuting the argument opposed to your own point of view doesnt make any sense.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 26, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> read the op deva is recharging and the op makes itachi to good running in tsasuno from 30 ft? and pein is ic mindstate he will not win this one.



1. Pein does not need deva to beat Itachi. Animal, preta and shuradou are enough to beat Itachi. Three bodies make all his genjutsu ineffective. Pein can avoid direct eye contact by making sure that he sends summons and shuradou to fight while the other bodies support. Shuradou can close his eyes and "see" through the other paths. The same way human realm did to Itachi. Exploding bunshin won't help since rinnegan can see chakra and will see the build-up of the chakra in the clone. Amaterasu can be absorbed by preta and susano'o since it is chakra can be absorbed as well. Before you tell me anything about the sword, I will have you remember that the sword is not automatic. Susano'o needs to pull it out, more than enough time for it to be sealed.



godtachi said:


> You got to convince me that this barrier isn't made of chakra, otherwise it gets burnt
> 
> And it doesn't matter, since Ama os to fast for HGR to activate his barrier in time...



1. Bullshit. You got to convince me that puny amaterasu can be through Fuujutsu Kyuuin. However, to avoid silly arguments, let's read Kishi.

Blocking Technique Absorption Seal* (封術吸印, Fuujutsu Kyuuin)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Pain

An inexhaustible vortex, absorbing all techniques!!

*By spinning the chakra flow within one's body in the opposite direction, all of the opponent's techniques aimed at oneself will be absorbed*. The absorbed chakra is dispersed within the body. Like a bottomless swamp, the power is swallowed.

[picture of Pain's Preta Realm absorbing Jiraiya's Super-Big Ball Rasengan]
↑*All techniques are absorbed and made ineffective, regardless of the nature of the chakra*.


Amaterasu is made of chakra, it gets absorbed.

2. Amaterasu is not as fast as you think. Gaara is slow as shit and yet he blocked amaterasu


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Gaara was over one hundred feet away and was fast enough to intercept Ē. His sand was also noted to be extraordinarily fast by Deidara. Preta Path doesn't have anywhere near those reflexes from what we've seen and you're still assuming Genjutsu wouldn't suffice for Preta Path.

Hungry Ghost can't _seal_ Susano'o... we've seen it form and reform plenty of times to know that if he does somehow absorb it once without being crushed then it won't happen a second time.


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## beij (Mar 26, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Gaara was over one hundred feet away and was fast enough to intercept Ē. His sand was also noted to be extraordinarily fast by Deidara. Preta Path doesn't have anywhere near those reflexes from what we've seen. and you're still assuming Genjutsu wouldn't suffice for Preta Path.
> 
> Hungry Ghost can't _seal_ Susano'o... we've seen it form and reform plenty of times to know that if he does somehow absorb it once without being crushed then it won't happen a second time.



Gaara's sandspeed is legendary, and with new feats as fast or faster than anybody in the manga

i second this. hungry ghost rhelm can not absorg susano, its absorbtion powerd are overated. it doubt it could absorb amarterasu, as it is a widespread jutsu

Itachi's amarterasu, folloowed by compete susano could take this pretty quikly, and the only thread is chibuku tensei as it attacks from all sides. still Itachi could target Deva alone, and note the other paths have to deactivate for chibuku tensei to work

a bloodlusted Itachi likely takes this, although under certain circumstances pain could as well. still a healthy Itachi likely takes this


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## Lightysnake (Mar 26, 2010)

I love how the only defense against HG's absorbing powers is "NUH UH" from people.
IT's made of chakra, HG absorbs it. Period


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Its weapons are not made of chakra and Preta was shown to take several panels to absorb large masses of chakra where as Susano'o didn't take any panels to stab Orochimaru before he even registered the attack. Why is this so difficult to understand?


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## Aoshi (Mar 26, 2010)

Once Susano gets near Preta Realm, it either gets Chibaku Tensei'd or absorbed. I don't know what is so hard to understand...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

Chibaku Tensei requires the other bodies to deactivate and for Deva to run away towards Nagato. Preta Realm running up to absorb Susano'o isn't a straightforward situation.


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## Aoshi (Mar 26, 2010)

We don't have necessary speed feats from Susano. The only feats it has is killing a stationary Orochimaru. Preta Realm can most likely catch up with it. Also, in the time it takes for Susano to take out the Sword of Totsuka, Preta Realm will be absorbing it.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2010)

It's not IC for Preta to charge - that's a bad idea anyways as he would be caught in Genjutsu and crushed. Also, Susano'o has plenty of speed feats, and there's a thread outlining them in the library.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

Why is this even a argument? whats so hard to understand that the op says deva is shutdown and itachi can run and cast non ms jutsu inside of tsasuno and is fully healthy and 30 feet away from pein? all he has to do is cast a kage bushing and wait for preta to try and absorb tsasuno and taijutsu him being that in this scenerio itachi has full knwoledge its that simple after that the rest of the buddies are simply sitting ducks with a giant sealing sword in there face and deva cant push him back to stall.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 26, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Gaara was over one hundred feet away and was fast enough to intercept Ē. His sand was also noted to be extraordinarily fast by Deidara. Preta Path doesn't have anywhere near those reflexes from what we've seen and you're still assuming Genjutsu wouldn't suffice for Preta Path.



1. So what? Are you saying that preta will be close to Itachi? Preta is not a fighting body, it would stay away from Itachi. Pein used to block jutsu only never to attack during the Jiraiya battle. Your argument is moot.
2. Ei's speed is overrated. Anybody with chuunin exam Sasuke speed is faster than Gaara's sand
3. Preta has the reflexes to block attacks from seven ninjas at the same time
[naruto=422]03[/naruto]
4. Why would genjutsu work? Do you understand genjutsu? Sharingan genjutsu can be dealt with by closing eyes. Individual pein bodies can fight with their eyes closed because Pein sees everything the other paths see. If Itachi is fighting a path, the others can stay back and watch the fight and give the path that is fighting perfect vision to fight back. 



Soloman said:


> Hungry Ghost can't _seal_ Susano'o... we've seen it form and reform plenty of times to know that if he does somehow absorb it once without being crushed then it won't happen a second time.



Sealing a jutsu does not mean it can't be used anymore. Susano'o would be ABSORBED by preta just like any other chakra-based ninjutsu. Itachi can't form and reform susano'o indefinitely. He has a chakra limitation. You people confuse his sickness with his lack of stamina. Itachi had poor stamina not just poor health.



beij said:


> Gaara's sandspeed is legendary, and with new feats as fast or faster than anybody in the manga



So legendary chuunin exam Sasuke bypassed it? 



beij said:


> i second this. hungry ghost rhelm can not absorg susano, its absorbtion powerd are overated. it doubt it could absorb amarterasu, as it is a widespread jutsu



1. Tell me WHY it cannot absorb susano'o? Give me a reason
2. Widespread? More widespread than 7 ninjas attacking from 7 directions at once? Do you not know that preta can expand his absorption barrier? Look at the page I attached above



beij said:


> Itachi's amarterasu, folloowed by compete susano could take this pretty quikly, and the only thread is chibuku tensei as it attacks from all sides. still Itachi could target Deva alone, and note the other paths have to deactivate for chibuku tensei to work



Itachi could lose to animal path alone. How would Itachi target multiple realms and multiple summons at the same time?



beij said:


> a bloodlusted Itachi likely takes this, although under certain circumstances pain could as well. still a healthy Itachi likely takes this



How could Itachi ever defeat Pein? I am interested in hearing your scenario for how Itachi wins.



Soloman said:


> Its weapons are not made of chakra and Preta was shown to take several panels to absorb large masses of chakra where as Susano'o didn't take any panels to stab Orochimaru before he even registered the attack. Why is this so difficult to understand?



Its weapons? It has one sword and that sword took two pages to come out. Susano'o will be absorbed before it can use the sword


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 26, 2010)

@senju clan can you comment on my point? or is everybody just purposley ignoring the op?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Even then Pein fans would say Pein would win. A healthy Itachi is quite enough to seriously threaten Pein although he would likely lose in the end.


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## DarkRasengan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Not really, it's just people ask a lot from a _healthy Itachi_ when we've only ever seen an Itachi who Zetsu thought was _severely injured._ So some people, like yourself, advocate the _lol severely injured isn't that different_ policy and other people, like myself, think _damn, he was thought to be severely injured when doing all of that? He must be beast when healthy._



Im not even talking about healthy itachi im talking about sick , and your one of the ones who does it.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Its weapons are not made of chakra and Preta was shown to take several panels to absorb large masses of chakra where as Susano'o didn't take any panels to stab Orochimaru before he even registered the attack. Why is this so difficult to understand?



panels=/=indicator of time


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> @senju clan can you comment on my point? or is everybody just purposley ignoring the op?



1. I don't know what your point was
2. I don't want to argue with you 
3. I changed my statement to say that even if you removed deva, Pein would still win


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 27, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. I don't know what your point was
> 2. I don't want to argue with you
> 3. I changed my statement to say that even if you removed deva, Pein would still win



The op states deva is shut down and itachi can run and cast non ms jutsu's while inside tsasuno and is fully healthy and will not go blind during this fight and is 30 feet away, itachi makes 1 kage bushing to battle preta because he has full knowledge and stomps the rest's of the bodies because they don't have nothing that can get pass the shield and deva has to recharge.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 27, 2010)

The Kage Bunshin, made of chakra, is instantly absorbed. The rest of the bodies blow him away. Hell, Demon Realm alone is a giant danger. And MS Genjutsu is worthless. None will look him in the eye.

Honestly? Demon Realm's laser could be said to be stronger than Kirin, which blew through the instant Susanoo


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 27, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The Kage Bunshin, made of chakra, is instantly absorbed. The rest of the bodies blow him away. Hell, Demon Realm alone is a giant danger. And MS Genjutsu is worthless. None will look him in the eye.
> 
> Honestly? Demon Realm's laser could be said to be stronger than Kirin, which blew through the instant Susanoo



hahahahahahahahah -snip- preta can instantly absorb kagebushin's ? preta can only absorb visable chakra and absorb chakra out of a person if he touches there skin .................................................and the rest of the bodies have nothing to get pass the mirror of yata and deva has to recharge............ and why are you bringing up ms jutsu's when the op says he starts in tsasuno and can cast non ms jutsu while inside? and kirin is stronger then any chakra base tech because it uses nature same for narutos FRS and itachi was perfectly fine because of tsasuno seriously stop making assumtions and back up your claims with proof


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## Lightysnake (Mar 27, 2010)

Kage Bunshins are made of chakra. They're not human beings. 

And yeah, it's just a shame Kirin is utterly worthless when you have someone who can interrupt the process of it.

-snip-


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## Thunder (Mar 27, 2010)

This debate will never end....

*Pein wins*

Itachi may be able to run around with Susano'o active, but what about his low stamina? He can't afford to just stroll around with it active. Some of you are suggesting that Itachi will be using MS jutsu and normal jutsu _while Susano'o is also active_. Think about it. This just isn't possible for Itachi. He may be able to pull off a couple of techniques that won't help him in the long run.

Genjutsu is worthless here. Itachi doesn't have an AoE genjutsu that can trap all of the bodies. Tsukiyomi will be able to take out one body at best, but it would be a waste of his chakra. His finger genjutsu can be broken out of. If he gets a body with it, another body can just break him out of it.

As far as we know, Hungry Ghost Realm can absorb ALL ninjutsu. Something like Amateratsu shouldn't be an exception. This also makes Itachi's Katons useless. The only way he can really damage Pein is with Susano'o. Whether or not HGR can absorb Susano'o is up for debate. I highly doubt Itachi will just stand there and let it be absorbed though. He can just deactivate it.

In the end, I see Itachi taking out a few bodies with Susano'o and dieing from exhaustion shortly after, not accomplishing anything worthwhile.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> The op states deva is shut down and itachi can run and cast non ms jutsu's while inside tsasuno and is fully healthy and will not go blind during this fight and is 30 feet away, itachi makes 1 kage bushing to battle preta because he has full knowledge and stomps the rest's of the bodies because they don't have nothing that can get pass the shield and deva has to recharge.



Sir, I am not sure if you did not understand me the last time. I am NOT interested in arguing with you. Let's make this easy. Ignore my posts and I will ignore yours. Thank you


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> panels=/=indicator of time



Panels, if nothing else, exemplify the passing of time.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Panels, if nothing else, exemplify the passing of time.



Yet you conveniently forget how many pages it took Itachi's susano'o to form its  swords


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Haha, it was rather convenient


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Panels, if nothing else, exemplify the passing of time.



yet whether it be a significant amount varies hence why your argument based on counting panels doesnt work.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

My argument was merely pointing out that the process takes time.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> My argument was merely pointing out that the process takes time.



in comparison to susanos sword stab using panels as an indicator. the evidence was merely faulty is all im claiming.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Granted, but you're not factoring in the time it would take Preta Realm to cross the distance in my humble opinion *or* even if he would as that seems out of character for the defensive body to do.


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## Grani (Mar 27, 2010)

Itachi VS all of Pein's bodies...? Oh my, he would really get kicked. o.o 

Itachi with all his strenght would never be able to destroy the whole village just like that. Pein was.

Itachi ran away when Jirayia appeared. Pein killed Jirayia.

I don't think there is much to debate. :/


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

I very much dislike your logic. Kisame was quite clear in his belief in Itachi being quite capable of defeating Jiraiya. Perhaps moreso than Madara was in Pein's victory. However, as we know, Itachi held no desire to engage in deadly conflict with the Leaf's finest.


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## DarkRasengan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I very much dislike your logic. Kisame was quite clear in his belief in Itachi being quite capable of defeating Jiraiya. Perhaps moreso than Madara was in Pein's victory. However, as we know, Itachi held no desire to engage in deadly conflict with the Leaf's finest.



Kisame thought itachi could fight on equal footing with jiraiya or "compete" with him, madara knew pain would beet jiraiya but knew there would be a fight.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Granted, but you're not factoring in the time it would take Preta Realm to cross the distance in my humble opinion *or* even if he would as that seems out of character for the defensive body to do.



Preta can shunshin otherwise shuradou can launch him. You always conveniently forget things that are not in Itachi's favor. I understand that you are an Itachi fan but seriously, Itachi is not on Pein level. Is uber strong? No doubt but Pein level? Nope!!!!


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Granted, but you're not factoring in the time it would take Preta Realm to cross the distance in my humble opinion *or* even if he would as that seems out of character for the defensive body to do.


such topics werent being discussed but we can discuss them if youd like.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Preta can shunshin otherwise shuradou can launch him. You always conveniently forget things that are not in Itachi's favor. I understand that you are an Itachi fan but seriously, Itachi is not on Pein level. Is uber strong? No doubt but Pein level? Nope!!!!



I said that Pein would win, but I don't believe the point made beforehand was valid. I am quite capable of saying someone is a victor while not agreeing with the points of likeminded people. Launching Hungry Ghost, for example, isn't a good idea.



DarkRasengan said:


> Kisame thought itachi could fight on equal footing with jiraiya or "compete" with him, madara knew pain would beet jiraiya but knew there would be a fight.



Kisame said retreat was not necessary for Itachi. Implying his victory.


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## Mist Puppet (Mar 27, 2010)

Pain takes this with hard difficulty.

First and foremost, Itachi has low stamina. So it doesn't really matter if Susanoo is up and he won't go blind, because it'll still sap his life force anyways. Also the fact that if he's going to be making bunshins, Genjutsu and other things, he's going to be worn out far more quickly than if he didn't have Susanoo active.

But it comes into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If Itachi deactivates Susanoo, and tries to pull it out again, then HGR and the other bodies can capitalize. Likewise, if he just keeps it up forever, he's going to be drained of his stamina easily.

In all, Animal Realm's summons can by a little time for Deva. Cerebus splits up and Itachi focuses on each one. Not to mention the others, and that chameleon can be used to hide Deva. HGR can absorb ninjutsu, and Itachi lacks any AoE Genjutsu like Frog Song.

And then once Deva comes out, it basically seals Itachi's fate.


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## Voltage1 (Mar 27, 2010)

When I read the title, I thought Itachi was gonna get WTFRhapeSt0mp3d..!!
But after reading the description, I can't decide.
3 minutes is alot, and I think once activating Susano'o, it's game over for pain.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I said that Pein would win, but I don't believe the point made beforehand was valid. I am quite capable of saying someone is a victor while not agreeing with the points of likeminded people. Launching Hungry Ghost, for example, isn't a good idea.



WHY would he not be a good idea?



Soloman said:


> Kisame said retreat was not necessary for Itachi. Implying his victory.



Kisame said two things:
1. Jiraiya was a match for Itachi
2. Retreat was not necessary for Itachi

This does not indicate superiority, it shows that he thought Itachi had a CHANCE while he did not stand a chance in hell


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> WHY would he not be a good idea?



He' not a very strong body to approach Itachi alone.



Senjuclan said:


> Kisame said two things:
> 1. Jiraiya was a match for Itachi
> 2. Retreat was not necessary for Itachi



To my recollection, he did not say the first. Jiraiya's just a Sanin.


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## Mist Puppet (Mar 27, 2010)

I would think throwing someone at a guy with a large, spiritual Tengu looking armor thing would not be a good idea.


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## ? (Mar 27, 2010)

without knowledge on where nagato is itachi loses. he will just get spammed with new pain bodies even if he managed to beat the former ones. without knowing nagato's secret, pain can't be truely beaten. manga canon. but for arguements sake:

*Susanoo*

is useless. itachi swings the sword of totsuka, and it gets blown away by shinra tensei. hungry ghost then fodderizes susanoo with absorption.

*Tsukuyomi*

is pointless on dead bodies that lack emotions.

*Amaterasu*

gets repelled or absorbed.

*Genjutsu*

gets broken, via kai or disrupting chakra through nagato.

hell, animal realm could solo if nagato played his cards right. with the ability to fly on a summon way out of itachi's range, and spam summons he would need nothing short of MS to actually defeat (one of which is immortal), animal realm is very much a threat to itachi. the others, along with his secret secure, makes his victory pretty much gauranteed.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> He' not a very strong body to approach Itachi alone.



He is not a very strong body to use for taijutsu. Itachi's taijutsu is average. Itachi is a genjutsu and ninjutsu fighter. His genjutsu won't work and his ninjutsu would be absorbed. His taijutsu while good is not enough to pose a problem for preta. At any rate, you forget that Pein can sacrifice bodies because he can raise them up. 



Soloman said:


> To my recollection, he did not say the first. Jiraiya's just a Sanin.



1. Your recollection is not good.
2. Sanin has what to do with Kisame and Itachi. Kisame thought that Itachi was a match at best for Jiraiya. Depending on the translation, he said this:
1. The name of the Uchiha clan was nothing compared to him
2. Jiraiya was a match for a the first of the leaf
3. Jiraiya was a match for Itachi

Not sure which one of the translations is the correct one (I assume anime is right= Uchiha clan pale in comparison to Jiraiya)


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Senju, I was asking for a link backing up what you said. 









The chapter, if anything, supports a tired Itachi being able to kill Jiraiya.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Senju, I was asking for a link backing up what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he means basically this.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> .



_1. Kisame says Itachi can fight wherever and however he wants. 

2. Itachi saying that they can kill them there.

3. Kisame says Jiraiya may be a match for one the of seven swordsmen.

4. Itachi confirms that every strong man has a weakness._

*I don't see how this hypes Jiraiya. Especially in conjunction with:*

_5. 

6. 

7. 

8. _

*Clearly, Itachi was presented as superior to the Sanin, any one of them.*


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> _1. Itachi saying that they can kill them.
> 2. Kisame says Itachi can fight wherever and however he wants.
> 3. Kisame says Jiraiya or Naruto may be a match the mist's strongest (him?)
> 4. Itachi confirms that every strong man has a weakness._
> ...




_That guy might be a match for the first of the Leaf and one of the Mists seven strongest._ Itachi even responds with trying to distract jiraiya and not fight him.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

First, a good number of translators believe that second statement is referring to the Kyubi Jinchuriki. Secondly, *if* it was referring to Jiraiya then that would put Jiraiya on Kisame's level as one of the Mist's seven strongest.



> Itachi even responds with trying to distract jiraiya and not fight him.



Kisame later says they weren't expecting it to work. This doesn't take away from the fact that Kisame thought a tired Itachi could kill Jiraiya and abduct an emotionally explosive Kyubi Jinchuriki.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 27, 2010)

I can see the quote in DarkRasengan's post...Jiraiya's 'weakness' was pretty women...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

And black rods


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## Nikushimi (Mar 27, 2010)

Itachi would defeat Pain with extreme difficulty, and circumstances could easily shift the advantage in Pain's favor.

Bloodlusted Itachi would defeat Pain with high difficulty.

Bloodlusted healthy Itachi would defeat Pain with some difficulty.

This Itachi, bloodlusted, would chain Pain to the back of his van and roadhaul him until he's nothing but a pelvis wearing a belt.


I mean, Christ. He just closes the distance with Shunshin and starts hacking away with Susano'o, which must be pretty damn fast in this match if it doesn't weigh anything.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> First, a good number of translators believe that second statement is referring to the Kyubi Jinchuriki. Secondly, *if* it was referring to Jiraiya then that would put Jiraiya on Kisame's level as one of the Mist's seven strongest.
> 
> 
> 
> Kisame later says they weren't expecting it to work. This doesn't take away from the fact that Kisame thought a tired Itachi could kill Jiraiya and abduct an emotionally explosive Kyubi Jinchuriki.



never heard of it. going by what i consider a reasonable translation. in fact its obvious jiraiya is being talked about. itachi then follows up with _Every strong man has a weakness..._ piggy backing off of what kisame just said. and we find out later that that weakeness was women. thats liek elementary understanding of the english language. actually he uses the conjunction _and_. referring to both itachi and kisame meaning he is saying that jiraiya is a match for both.

that shows even more that they were desperate enough not to fight that they would try something that they werent even confident would work. actually he thought itachi-minus 1 tsukiyomi (after getting some down time long enough that naruto and jiraiya walking managed to travel to another town, check into a hotel, and that sasuke managed to run and catch up to them) and kisame were about on par with jiraiya. they werent even discussing naruto said they didnt use a plural pronoun



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi would defeat Pain with extreme difficulty, and circumstances could easily shift the advantage in Pain's favor.
> 
> Bloodlusted Itachi would defeat Pain with high difficulty.
> 
> ...



hell realm then summons Satan and deva bansho tenins itachi and his van into Satans mouth right next to Brutus. then he retreats back into the depths of hell


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## Nikushimi (Mar 27, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> hell realm then summons Satan and deva bansho tenins itachi and his van into Satans mouth right next to Brutus. then he retreats back into the depths of hell



Pain uses Banshou Tenin and he takes the Totsuka no Tsurugi to the face. So, that's an incredibly _bad_ idea, actually.

EDIT: Also, Pain isn't bloodlusted, so that's completely OOC for him.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

Naruto is an adult in the shinobi society, Kisame repeatedly isolated Itachi in every statement, and they obviously weren't "desperate" to avoid Jiraiya considering Itachi's sass when Jiraiya came back _as they expected_. 

You're trying very hard to make the situation what it isn't. A Sanin, with less reputation than Orochimaru, up against Kisame and Itachi. Kisame and Itachi acted like they did because he simply was no more dangerous to them, particularly Itachi, than Orochimaru would be.

The fact is that within pages Kisame feared for Itachi's health after using so many dangerous jutsu while simultaneously believing that despite using so many tiring jutsu that retreat shouldn't be necessary for him.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain uses Banshou Tenin and he takes the Totsuka no Tsurugi to the face. So, that's an incredibly _bad_ idea, actually.
> 
> EDIT: Also, Pain isn't bloodlusted, so that's completely OOC for him.


did i mention hungry ghost behind itachi/susano absorbing it? or the fact that pain can you know dodge? while itachi is being dragged in is the unfortunate part. as it will be harder to aim but hey w/e. then theres the matter of satan to deal with.

Fact: Satan likes betrayers.



Soloman said:


> Naruto is an adult in the shinobi society, Kisame repeatedly isolated Itachi in every statement, and they obviously weren't "desperate" to avoid Jiraiya considering Itachi's sass when Jiraiya came back _as they expected_.
> 
> You're trying very hard to make the situation what it isn't. A Sanin, with less reputation than Orochimaru, up against Kisame and Itachi. Kisame and Itachi acted like they did because he simply was no more dangerous to them, particularly Itachi, than Orochimaru would be.
> 
> The fact is that within pages Kisame feared for Itachi's health after using so many dangerous jutsu while simultaneously believing that despite using so many tiring jutsu that retreat shouldn't be necessary for him.



umm no. naruto is still a kid. and it has no bearing on this argument anyway. then there was no point in doing that unless they were truly desperate. unless there was some other reason to try something they didnt expect to work. desperation is the only reason.

orochimaru doesnt have anything to do with the situation nor is that statement based on anything. kisame admitted jiraiya is a match for himself and itachi. you can try to bring in irrelavent things but it doesnt change what was said.

he wasnt afraid he simply advised him against it. itachi clearly tells him that he was tired showing that he was overestimating itachis stamina apparently.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 27, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain uses Banshou Tenin and he takes the Totsuka no Tsurugi to the face. So, that's an incredibly _bad_ idea, actually.
> 
> EDIT: Also, Pain isn't bloodlusted, so that's completely OOC for him.



If only Pain had a way to absorb Chakra! Only, if only he had a technique that makes chakra based techniques just vanish into himsel-

Oh wait


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

When Naruto received his headband he was an adult - this was specifically and repeatedly mentioned in the manga. They didn't expect it to work yet they still proceeded, which means they weren't in any way desperate.

You don't even know if he was talking about Jiraiya in that statement, but we do know that he said retreat from Jiraiya wasn't necessary for a tired Itachi. The only thing they knew was that Jiraiya was a Sanin. Neither of them fear Sanin...



Lightysnake said:


> If only Pain had a way to absorb Chakra! Only, if only he had a technique that makes chakra based techniques just vanish into himsel- Oh wait



The weapons aren't stated, shown, or implied to be made of chakra.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> When Naruto received his headband he was an adult - this was specifically and repeatedly mentioned in the manga. They didn't expect it to work yet they still proceeded, which means they weren't in any way desperate.
> 
> You don't even know if he was talking about Jiraiya in that statement, but we do know that he said retreat from Jiraiya wasn't necessary for a tired Itachi. The only thing they knew was that Jiraiya was a Sanin. Neither of them fear Sanin...




normal kid. i rest my case. and besides as ive said the point is a fallacy. irrelavent. you didnt reply just ignored. why do something that isnt expected to work to avoid conflict? i.e. desperation. please respond to this this time and not ignore. thanks man.

yes we do actually.

kisame references 1 of the 3 Sannin in the bottom right panel. He is the last thing mentioned before his next sentence begins meaning the last thing he was talking about is being expanded on. Unless after seeing Uzumaki Naruto Kisame came to the conclusion that Part 1 Naruto=Itachi/Kisame which has no basis behind it. Then Itachi states every strong man has a weakness referring back to the person kisame was talking about which was the Sannin. if you dont believe he was referring to the sannin then i suppose that weakness comment had nothing to with the women did it? to put it simply you have ZERO reasoning to suggest that it was naruto they were talking about while EVERYTHING points to it being jiriaya. make a thread though. that would be amusing.

so pretty much argument settled. Jiraiya is on same level as itachi minus 1 tsukiyomi with ample time to rest and Kisame at full power


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> normal kid.



Jiraiya's statement isn't synonymous with Itachi's or Kakashi's, for instance. 



sanji's left eye said:


> yes we do actually.
> 
> kisame references 1 of the 3 Sannin in the bottom right panel. He is the last thing mentioned before his next sentence begins meaning the last thing he was talking about is being expanded on.



No, the subject was Naruto before. *He* had a Sanin guarding him and *he*...




sanji's left eye said:


> Unless after seeing Uzumaki Naruto Kisame came to the conclusion that Part 1 Naruto=Itachi/Kisame which has no basis behind it.



As I said, Kisame has no reason to fear a Sanin. The Kyubi, on the other hand...


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Jiraiya's statement isn't synonymous with Itachi's or Kakashi's, for instance.
> 
> 
> No, the subject was Naruto before. *He* had a Sanin guarding him and *he*...
> ...



itachi/kakashi have referred to him as man at a similar time?

_One of the Legendary Three Sannin_ was the last thing he referred to. i cant photoshop so i cant get specific for you.

apparently he did if he stated that he was a match for him and jiraiya. once again dont ignore arguments. ill be waiting for a full response. thanks


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

How is Itachi the first of the Leaf?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> How is Itachi the first of the Leaf?


red herring. makes no difference why Itachi is referred to as such.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

It's quite relevant as you have nothing suggesting that it's referencing Itachi at all.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> It's quite relevant as you have nothing suggesting that it's referencing Itachi at all.



oh so youre assuming that he is talking about someone else? its called context clues. one of mists seven strongest is obviously talking about kisame. the only other person there who is from konoha that is about to confront jiraiya with kisame is itachi. That was literally common sense.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2010)

I'm still waiting for how _The First of the Leaf_ applies to Itachi.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I'm still waiting how _The First of the Leaf_ applies to Itachi.


as i said. red herring. we know itachi was the one being referenced is all that matters. maybe kisame refers to itachi as such is because he believes he is the strongest ninja from the strongest clan. or the ninja with the most potential he knows. or as a sign of respect. but as i said its a red herring.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

If that were the case then Itachi would by default outrank Jiraiya and the Sanin would obviously not be applicable for such a statement. The first of the leaf is likely referring to the Shodai Hokage. I've seen a few theories about Itachi being a clone, but come on.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> If that were the case then Itachi would by default outrank Jiraiya and the Sanin would obviously not be applicable for such a statement. The first of the leaf is likely referring to the Shodai Hokage. I've seen a few theories about Itachi being a clone, but come on.


so kisame and shodai are about to fight jiraiya? your desperation is really showing. shodaime was not part of the conversation and he has never been referenced by kisame and didnt fight jiraiya and had no bearing on the entire situation. kisame is referring to itachi. its a fact you have yet to counter. and read whole posts. i gave multiple hypotheticals none of which involve him outranking jiraiya or the sannin. so i shall ignore the red herring and accept your concession


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

I am simply asking for a reasonable explanation as to why Itachi would be called _The First of the Leaf._ That is almost verbatim an address of Shodai Hokage. I can't see Kisame, for no particular reason, giving Itachi that title because of respect and it's not because Itachi is the strongest from the Leaf or else Jiraiya wouldn't stand a chance anyways.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I am simply asking for a reasonable explanation as to why Itachi would be called the _First of the Leaf._ That is almost verbatim an address of Shodai Hokage.



and im just telling you man that why Itachi was called this has no bearing on this argument. hence why its a red herring. whether he was called the trash of konoha by kisame in context its still obvious who was being referred to. any reason imaginable could be considered. being the only known uchiha alive by kisame he could be using that (uchiha helped found konoha so literally 1st of the leaf). maybe kisame considers him the one one with the most potential. or he is hyping him up as a sign of respect. as i said possibilties are endless but the most important part is that it doesnt matter

Edit: If you want to get into a seperate topic then ignroe this post and ill look up some information on him to see if kisames statement makes sense


*Spoiler*: _ignore this_ 



Sasuke wins probably. he can go in and will be able to set up a nice intelligent trap like against deidara and probably take down hell realm. using his sharingan, speed, and skill as well as his chidori nagashi and a few katons and he can definitely cause enough of a disturbance to create an opening. a brief genjutsu thrown in as well if need be. with full knowledge he will know that he needs to finish deva/hungry ghost next. bansho tenin/shinra tensei could be problematic however susano can help tank or maybe like chidori eisou/sword in the ground to help stabalize him. a MS genjutsu+chidori sword combo could give him the opening he needs after using something like a massive susano smash to seperate the bodies from hungry ghost.

animal realms summons can be dealt with through amaterasu. Asura could also eat an amaterasu. Animal realms slowness is capitalized on by susano/arrow. human realm probably takes the fall again.  by this time sasuke should be running low on chakra and probably couldnt do much more. maybe manage to kill animal realm before deva chibaku tenseis him.

Now this scenario is if Sasuke wasnt ultra hax and just as he is now. however with Orochimarus regeneration/chakra he maintains a sturdy susano where e shouldve fallen, heals from injuries, and fires 2 quick arrows defeating that 5 second interval.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> _1. Kisame says Itachi can fight wherever and however he wants.
> 
> 2. Itachi saying that they can kill them there.
> 
> ...



You are funny. Arguing with you is getting ridiculous. You conveniently forget about that part about being a match for the first of the lead. I even told you that other translations have it as the Uchiha clan and yet others as Itachi. This statement has been discussed ad nauseam and the conclusion was that Kisame was talking about Jiraiya being a match for Itachi. 



Soloman said:


> _5.
> 
> 6.
> 
> ...



You are funny. It is Ok to love a character but abandoning rationality because of this is way too much for me to understand. You conveniently forget that Jiraiya was going to fight Itachi and Kisame and Sasuke told him to not interfere. He stood down to respect Sasuke's wish for revenge. Kisame said retreat was not necessary but he ALSO said that Jiraiya was a match for Itachi. I don't see how you conclude that Itachi was compared to the  sannin



Soloman said:


> First, a good number of translators believe that second statement is referring to the Kyubi Jinchuriki. Secondly, *if* it was referring to Jiraiya then that would put Jiraiya on Kisame's level as one of the Mist's seven strongest.



Actually most translators, including the anime team have it as it is referencing Jiraiya, which makes more sense. There was even a guy on the board who asked his friend's Japanese wife for her opinion and she came back with the conclusion that there were talking about Jiraiya. Search the board and you will find this. Also, you always conveniently forget things that don't support your bias. Kisame also said that he was a match for the leaf's first. I told you the consensus among the translators is that he is speaking about Itachi



Soloman said:


> Kisame later says they weren't expecting it to work. This doesn't take away from the fact that Kisame thought a tired Itachi could kill Jiraiya and abduct an emotionally explosive Kyubi Jinchuriki.



False. Kisame said they were not expecting the genjutsu on the woman to delay Jiraiya for ever. Nowhere did Kisame think that Itachi could take Jiraiya. Also, this thing about being tired is bull. Itachi had had PLENTY of time to recuperate from using tsukuyomi.



Soloman said:


> Naruto is an adult in the shinobi society, Kisame repeatedly isolated Itachi in every statement, and they obviously weren't "desperate" to avoid Jiraiya considering Itachi's sass when Jiraiya came back _as they expected_.



They were not desperate but they thought it best. The sass goes both ways, Jiraiya never thought Itachi was a danger. Even after that meeting, he took Naruto under his wings fully knowing that Kisame and Itachi were after him



Soloman said:


> You're trying very hard to make the situation what it isn't. A Sanin, with less reputation than Orochimaru, up against Kisame and Itachi. Kisame and Itachi acted like they did because he simply was no more dangerous to them, particularly Itachi, than Orochimaru would be.



You are kidding, right? Tell me you are. Kisame calls Jiraiya, the GREAT Jiraiya and says that he is below his level. When did he ever show that deference to Orochimaru



Soloman said:


> The fact is that within pages Kisame feared for Itachi's health after using so many dangerous jutsu while simultaneously believing that despite using so many tiring jutsu that retreat shouldn't be necessary for him.



He did not fear for his immediate health, but his long-term health. Plus Itachi had rested. 



Soloman said:


> When Naruto received his headband he was an adult - this was specifically and repeatedly mentioned in the manga. They didn't expect it to work yet they still proceeded, which means they weren't in any way desperate.
> 
> You don't even know if he was talking about Jiraiya in that statement, but we do know that he said retreat from Jiraiya wasn't necessary for a tired Itachi. The only thing they knew was that Jiraiya was a Sanin. Neither of them fear Sanin...



1. If you think he is talking about Naruto, tell me how it makes sense? Naruto is accompanied by a sannin. Naruto is a match for leaf's first and the strongest of seven swordsmen. Every man has a weakness. Next panel they are using genjutsu on a woman, Jiraiya's weakness. When Jiraiya shows up, Kisame says he knew he has a weakness for women. Tell me how the Naruto part makes sense.
2. Neither one of them fear the sannin except for saying that Kisame is not on Jiraiya's level



Soloman said:


> The weapons aren't stated, shown, or implied to be made of chakra.



What are they made of in your opinion. The sword is ethereal, all ethereal items in this manga are made of chakra.



Soloman said:


> Jiraiya's statement isn't synonymous with Itachi's or Kakashi's, for instance.
> 
> No, the subject was Naruto before. *He* had a Sanin guarding him and *he*...
> 
> As I said, Kisame has no reason to fear a Sanin. The Kyubi, on the other hand...



Kisame had a reason to fear the kyubi even though he has a sword that steals chakra and he the BEST jinchiruki hunter in akatsuki. Tell me how that works. 



Soloman said:


> It's quite relevant as you have nothing suggesting that it's referencing Itachi at all.



Most translators say it was referencing Itachi



Soloman said:


> I am simply asking for a reasonable explanation as to why Itachi would be called _The First of the Leaf._ That is almost verbatim an address of Shodai Hokage. I can't see Kisame, for no particular reason, giving Itachi that title because of respect and it's not because Itachi is the strongest from the Leaf or else Jiraiya wouldn't stand a chance anyways.



That is ONE translation. Other translations imply he was referencing Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

I would warn you if I could.



> @Sanji
> 
> I made a thread in the library, and the First of the Leaf is implying that the Uchiha were the strongest clan in Konoha - so it was referring to Itachi in a way although it is evidently speaking strictly of reputation.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

thanks. alright ill check it out


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## Suu (Mar 28, 2010)

Behave, guys and gals.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 28, 2010)

Itachi starts the battle with susano'o and can shunshin around with it ? On top of that he isn't sick and blind ? You mean this is Itachi using his full potential ? 

This is not fair at all, unrestrict gedou mazou and CST and take away Itachi's knowledge and Pain may stand a chance.


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## Angoobo (Mar 28, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *This is not fair at all, unrestrict gedou mazou and CST and take away Itachi's knowledge and Pain may stand a chance.*



This is the most retarded thing i've ever seen here.
Itachi w/o knowledge is raped and Pain with GM or CST would curbstomp him.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

It is funny how people say Kisame's comment was referring to reputation only not actual strength but yet they believe Itachi was stronger than what we have seen, which is based on reputation as well. Raikage said ninjas respect strength, when a ninja of Kisame level says that the name of Uchiha clan pales in comparison to Jiraiya's, that clearly indicates that he would rather fight an Uchiha than Jiraiya, in which case he thinks Jiraiya is stronger than the Uchiha clan. How many Uchiha did he know?

-snip-


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

i hate it when people dont elaborate and just state someone wins. but seriously jiraiya vs itachi doesnt matter. ABC logic doesnt work in all situations so just because one can say jiraiya and itachi are on par doesnt mean that pain will beat itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> yet they believe Itachi was stronger than what we have seen, which is based on reputation as well.



This is incorrect. Zetsu had seen Itachi fight before and knew his style well enough to suggest that Itachi had been _severely injured_ before he fought Sasuke. The problem with the reputation statement is that Kisame later said a tired Itachi could have killed Jiraiya, they knew nothing about Jiraiya other than him being a Sanin, and each held power surpassing a Sanin.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> This is incorrect. Zetsu had seen Itachi fight before.



Yes he had seen amaterasu and all the other shit that Kisame had seen when he made that comment. Kisame knowing about amaterasu and tsukuyomi did not think that Itachi could outclass Jiraiya. If you guys believe he is stronger than what we have seen, it is based solely on rumors.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Not really. Jiraiya hasn't shown the reflexes to avoid Amaterasu or the style to avoid Tsukuyomi. I believe Jiraiya is would lose to Itachi because in their conflict he stared at the Uchiha's eyes for an easy Tsukuyomi and sat at close range for an easy Amaterasu. The fact that Zetsu said the Itachi we saw fight fought as if he were severely injured beforehand speaks a great deal about his power and Kisame's statement about retreat not being necessary for a tired Itachi reinforces this.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Not really. Jiraiya hasn't shown the reflexes to avoid Amaterasu or the style to avoid Tsukuyomi. I believe Jiraiya is would lose to Itachi because in their conflict he stared at the Uchiha's eyes for an easy Tsukuyomi and sat at close range for an easy Amaterasu. The fact that Zetsu said the Itachi we saw fight fought as if he were severely injured beforehand speaks a great deal about his power and Kisame's statement about retreat not being necessary for a tired Itachi reinforces this.



The reflexes to avoid amaterasu or block it are Gaara level or hebi Sasuke level. Jiraiya is faster than Gaara. Case closed. The style to avoid tsukuyomi is to have a kuchiyose disturb your chakra flow. 

You keep forgetting Kisame first statement about Jiraiya and the Uchiha clan. You say Kisame was talking about the sannin. That makes no sense. One he specifically said THAT GUY not the sannin. Furthermore, he knew Itachi had schooled a sannin, therefore he could have only been speaking about Jiraiya. I don't want to get into a Jiraiya vs. Itachi fight since this is not the right place. I just want to argue the statement by Kisame.


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## Aoshi (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm amazed that people are still argueing Itachi's case.

Everything that Itachi has will not work on Pain. Tsukyomi does not work because of Nagato disrupting the chakra flow. Amaterasu will get absorbed by Preta Realm. Susanoo will get absorbed immediately by Preta Realm too. Meanwhile, Pain has many options to defeat Itachi. He could Chibaku Tensei him right off the bat, he could summon Cerebus, or he could Chou Shinra Tensei. Pain wins this easily.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 28, 2010)

Kirin kinda proved Susanoo's not as invincible as people believe. I've seen arguments that "it wasn't out fully" which kind of contradicts the argument that "it's instant."


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## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2010)

gkrt said:


> It doesn't matter if Itachi is stronger or weaker than Jiraiya. He gets raped either way by Pain.



It should matter if he is stronger than Jiraiya to the point that there's virtually no comparison to be made between the two.



sanji's left eye said:


> did i mention hungry ghost behind itachi/susano absorbing it? or the fact that pain can you know dodge? while itachi is being dragged in is the unfortunate part. as it will be harder to aim but hey w/e.



Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin is just a chakra vacuum- the Yata no Kagami says "Holla." Dodging? This Susano'o doesn't impose any physical burden on Itachi, ergo, it has no weight; it's doubtful any of Pain's bodies could dodge it, since he is geared more towards intercepting and nullifying than dodging.

Not to mention, it's proven in the manga AND reiterated in the OP that other techniques can be used while Susano'o is up. If Tendou dodges Susano'o, Itachi hits him with Amaterasu while he's in the air.



> then theres the matter of satan to deal with.
> 
> Fact: Satan likes betrayers.



Too much Dante's Inferno? 

Itachi isn't a betrayer, herp derp. He pretended to be one, but ultimately, he kept his allegiance to the village. This is stated. So Satan would get indigestion. 



Lightysnake said:


> If only Pain had a way to absorb Chakra! Only, if only he had a technique that makes chakra based techniques just vanish into himsel-
> 
> Oh wait



If only Itachi had a spiritual mirror that could nullify all physical, spiritual, and chakra-based techniques! If only he had this mirror wielded by his Susano'o along with the Totsuka no Tsurugi to make him completely invinci-

Oh wait.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kirin kinda proved Susanoo's not as invincible as people believe. I've seen arguments that "it wasn't out fully" which kind of contradicts the argument that "it's instant."



The ribcage portion appeared instantly. It evidently takes time for the other layers to grow on.


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## Aoshi (Mar 28, 2010)

If Tendou dodges, and Itachi uses Amaterasu at him, then Tendou Shinra Tensei's it away.... 

Yata Mirror may indeed block all chakra based attacks, but Preta Realm's absorption isn't chakra based.

You have yet to explain how Itachi will handle Chibaku Tensei.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kage Bunshins are made of chakra. They're not human beings.
> 
> And yeah, it's just a shame Kirin is utterly worthless when you have someone who can interrupt the process of it.
> 
> -snip-



The chakra is still not visable so you have no proof pretas barrier can absorb a kage bushin,further more pein can't even tell the diff between a kagebushin and a actually body hence why naruto could pose as a bunch of rocks then rasengon him ftw and Pein has zero knowledge of kirin so why would he attemp to interupt it?



KnownTitanKid said:


> I'm amazed that people are still argueing Itachi's case.
> 
> Everything that Itachi has will not work on Pain. Tsukyomi does not work because of Nagato disrupting the chakra flow. Amaterasu will get absorbed by Preta Realm. Susanoo will get absorbed immediately by Preta Realm too. Meanwhile, Pain has many options to defeat Itachi. He could Chibaku Tensei him right off the bat, he could summon Cerebus, or he could Chou Shinra Tensei. Pain wins this easily.



Read the op -_-


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## Lightysnake (Mar 28, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> It should matter if he is stronger than Jiraiya to the point that there's virtually no comparison to be made between the two.


Except Itachi very much is not.



> Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin is just a chakra vacuum- the Yata no Kagami says "Holla." Dodging? This Susano'o doesn't impose any physical burden on Itachi, ergo, it has no weight; it's doubtful any of Pain's bodies could dodge it, since he is geared more towards intercepting and nullifying than dodging.


1. Learn your Spanish, please. The translation of 'hello' is spelled with only one l.
2. Susanoo has not been shown to be so fast one can't avoid it. It's merely fast. Moreover, the Yata no Kagami, as made of chakra itself as part of Susanoo according to the databook. 
3. Susanoo will be absorbed. The databook says what it turns aside is all attacks. Hungry Ghost's absorbing techniques is a purely defense one. Not only that, but Yata's Mirror is said to be part of Susanoo itself (IE: chakra) and endowed with all nature alterations. (IE: chakra). 



> Not to mention, it's proven in the manga AND reiterated in the OP that other techniques can be used while Susano'o is up. If Tendou dodges Susano'o, Itachi hits him with Amaterasu while he's in the air.


The hilarious thing is Pain can stand still and let Itachi spam MS techniques and Itachi will drop dead on his own before he can kill all six with his low chakra pool.
Itachi sure better be a great multitasker, given Deva can still use his own techniques which will repel Amaterasu...at the same time Hungry Ghost is devouring Susanoo and Demon Realm is vaporizing him




> Too much Dante's Inferno?
> 
> Itachi isn't a betrayer, herp derp. He pretended to be one, but ultimately, he kept his allegiance to the village. This is stated. So Satan would get indigestion.


Itachi's amazing role as a double agent includes:
A. Doing absolutely nothing to hinder Akatsuki
B. Fulfilling every task given to him to make Akatsuki stronger
C. Doing nothing as they gathered up 7 Bijuu while
D. Turning his brother into a ravenous psychotic.
E. Being fully willing to kill three of Konoha's best ninja, weakening a village that just lo0st its Hokage.
Isn't Itachi just a swell patriot? 


> If only Itachi had a spiritual mirror that could nullify all physical, spiritual, and chakra-based techniques! If only he had this mirror wielded by his Susano'o along with the Totsuka no Tsurugi to make him completely invinci-
> 
> Oh wait.




Shame how the databook, section translated by Shounensuki says 'attacks.'
I fail to see how defensive chakra absorbing is an attack in of itself any more than Yata's Mirror is. 
I also fail to see how 'spiritual' is taken so absurdly literally. From the databook:

*The materialised chakra takes on the form of a war god with a commanding face and powerful physique. His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes...!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a reason "Susanoo" boasts absolute perfection in both offence and defence~~ That reason is the "Sacred Treasures*" he holds in both hands. In his right hand is the "Totsuka Sword"** that will strike down any kind of enemy and the shield in his left hand is the "Yata Mirror"*** that will reflect all attacks. Whether they be material or spiritual, ninjutsu or physical attacks, they all lose their meaning before this god's potency.

[picture of the gourd as the Totsuka Sword appears from it]
↑Sake flows from the gourd, taking on the shape of a sword and transforming into the "Totsuka Sword"! The souls absorbed by the sword are also sealed in there.

In his left and right hands are the unparalleled Sacred Treasures of miraculous efficacy

The Totsuka Sword
[picture of Orochimaru being sealed into the Totsuka Sword]
←It's a type of "Kusanagi Sword*," equipped with the power to throw the person it stabs into a genjutsu world of drunken dreams, sealing them for all eternity. The sword itself carries a "fuuinjutsu".

The Yata Mirror
[picture of Susanoo holding up the Yata Mirror]
→The incorporeal shield of the "Sacred Treasures". Endowed with all "nature transformations," it can change its own characteristics depending on the characteristics of the attack it receives, making the technique ineffective.*

Only 'attacks' and the reason is because it's endowed with all nature alterations. Nothing about resisting absorption. Even more than that, being able to change its composition depending on the element it's resisting? Chakra.
The reason Susanoo itself is so feared is due to the Yata and Totsuka. NOTHING aboutthis being limited to Itachi's Susanoo.
Ergo, they're materialized chakra.

And as for the claim "Well, only the ribcage appears."
the only time we've seen that was Sasuke's incomplete version. We see Susanoo's appear quite a bit more instantly, specifically when the user has mastery of them. 

When Gaara and team launch their entire storm, Susanoo's skeletal form? instant. Sasuke's power of hatred DEMs out of Danzo's seal? Full Susanoo suddenly appears.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> The chakra is still not visable so you have no proof pretas barrier can absorb a kage bushin,further more pein can't even tell the diff between a kagebushin and a actually body hence why naruto could pose as a bunch of rocks then rasengon him ftw and Pein has zero knowledge of kirin so why would he attemp to interupt it?



Neither is the chakra is Naruto's body. I'm not sure how clearer I can honestly make this...being unable to tell Henge'd Kage Bunshins does not mean they won't be absorbed. The Sharingan and Byakugan have issues telling Bunshin from real people, too. Plus, you'll kind of note Hungry Ghost was dead at that time...he also absorbs, again, any and all chakra based techniques. That includes bunshin

And why would Pain attempt to interrupt the guy who's hand is crackling with electricity as the sky darkens and lightning gathers. Is


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> The reflexes to avoid amaterasu or block it are Gaara level or hebi Sasuke level.



 of those people were in  range.



Senjuclan said:


> Jiraiya is faster than Gaara.



Jiraiya is not faster than Gaara's  sand lol.



Senjuclan said:


> The style to avoid tsukuyomi is to have a kuchiyose disturb your chakra flow.



Itachi's Tsukuyomi can not be 



Senjuclan said:


> That makes no sense. One he specifically said THAT GUY not the sannin



He only described him as "." He's not special.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Neither is the chakra is Naruto's body. I'm not sure how clearer I can honestly make this...being unable to tell Henge'd Kage Bunshins does not mean they won't be absorbed. The Sharingan and Byakugan have issues telling Bunshin from real people, too. Plus, you'll kind of note Hungry Ghost was dead at that time...he also absorbs, again, any and all chakra based techniques. That includes bunshin
> 
> And why would Pain attempt to interrupt the guy who's hand is crackling with electricity as the sky darkens and lightning gathers. Is



Your mixing up pretas abilities he absorbed narutos chakra because he touched him, So why would he use barrier on a kagebushin if he cant tell the diffrence? thats completly illogical and oc, pein is not a video game and you cant debate with him like you can control everything he does stay ic please, and as for kirin you cant interpret what pein would do period. he has the mindstate of a god so he wouldnt do the most logical thing a human would do for all we know he would just prep preta to block it because he has no knowledge of the move


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## Leon (Mar 28, 2010)

Even a magically buffed Itachi can't beat a gimped Pain.

Preta is pretty much his bane, he can't keep up with 6 bodies with his MS jutsu.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> of those people were in  range.



Your point is? My point remains that amaterasu can be countered. I am not sure what yours is. 



Soloman said:


> Jiraiya is not faster than Gaara's  sand lol.



Jiraiya is not faster than the sand. I said he is faster than Gaara = he has faster reflexes. If Gaara can react in time to amaterasu, Jiraiya can. Comparing the sand to Jiraiya is useless.



Soloman said:


> Itachi's Tsukuyomi can not be



That is bullshit. The effects can't be cancelled but the jutsu itself can be cancelled before it takes effect. Reread the Kakashi vs. Itachi fight, it took ~ three pages between Kakashi being struck by tsukuyomi and him feeling the effects, enough time to disturb chakra. If tsukuyomi could not be cancelled, how do you think Hashirama beat Madara since he had tsukuyomi?



Soloman said:


> He only described him as "." He's not special.



 You conveniently forget that part about THAT GUY is stronger than the Uchiha clan and the seven swordsmen! Not the sannnin, THAT GUY


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## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except Itachi very much is not.



Considering how easily he curbed Orochimaru, *twice*, yes, he very much is.



> 1. Learn your Spanish, please. The translation of 'hello' is spelled with only one l.



HAHAHAHAHAHA.

It's not Spanish. It's a ghettofied bastardization of the word "holler."



> 2. Susanoo has not been shown to be so fast one can't avoid it. It's merely fast. Moreover, the Yata no Kagami, as made of chakra itself as part of Susanoo according to the databook.



Neither Sasuke nor Orochimaru could avoid it. And no, the Yata no Kagami is not made of chakra.



> 3. Susanoo will be absorbed. The databook says what it turns aside is all attacks. Hungry Ghost's absorbing techniques is a purely defense one. Not only that, but Yata's Mirror is said to be part of Susanoo itself (IE: chakra) and endowed with all nature alterations. (IE: chakra).



It's stated to be a spiritual item, not something made of chakra. Just because it is a part of Susano'o, doesn't mean it must be chakra; chakra has two main components, one of which is physical energy, the other being spiritual energy. The two items Susano'o wields are stated to be purely spiritual. Also, before you go playing with semantics again, look at the actual mechanics of the mirror: it changes its nature to nullify attacks, be they physical, spiritual, or chakra-based. It doesn't literally have to be a move designed for offense to be nullified by the Yata no Kagami's effects; any move USED offensively, as an attack, would be nullified, Fuujutsu Kyuuin included.



> The hilarious thing is Pain can stand still and let Itachi spam MS techniques and Itachi will drop dead on his own before he can kill all six with his low chakra pool.



Not really. If Pain stands still, Itachi can do everything from hitting all of them simultaneously with a single Amaterasu to walking up and stabbing them all with a kunai and/or ripping their chakra receivers out.



> Itachi sure better be a great multitasker, given Deva can still use his own techniques which will repel Amaterasu...at the same time Hungry Ghost is devouring Susanoo and Demon Realm is vaporizing him



Amaterasu appears ON the target; Tendou can't repel his clothes, so it's safe to say he can't repel Amaterasu. And Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin will be nullified by the Yata no Kagami.



> Itachi's amazing role as a double agent includes:
> A. Doing absolutely nothing to hinder Akatsuki



Madara totally disagrees with you here. He said Itachi was the last obstacle in his way to exacting vengence on Konoha.



> B. Fulfilling every task given to him to make Akatsuki stronger



Such as?



> C. Doing nothing as they gathered up 7 Bijuu while



You can't pose as an Akatsuki member while actively impeding their operations. It just doesn't work like that.



> D. Turning his brother into a ravenous psychotic.



It's a classic example of the Xanatos Gambit. It'll all work out in the end and Itachi knew that; this is a Shounen manga.



> E. Being fully willing to kill three of Konoha's best ninja, weakening a village that just lo0st its Hokage.



Says who? It's stated numerous times in both the manga AND the databook that Itachi was a pacifist who hated killing.



> Isn't Itachi just a swell patriot?



Considering he was the only thing keeping the walls of Konohagakure standing while he was alive, and considering they fell virtually the same instant he was no longer around to have a say in the matter, I'd say yes he is.



> Shame how the databook, section translated by Shounensuki says 'attacks.'
> I fail to see how defensive chakra absorbing is an attack in of itself any more than Yata's Mirror is.



If I'm not mistaken, the entry for Fuujutsu Kyuuin only states that it absorbs "Ninjutsu."

BUT WAIT, SENNIN CHAKRA ISN'T A NINJUTSU.

It's semantics. Other translations say "techniques." It's just a general term used for "HERP DERP, MAGIC."

Besides, if Gakidou is actively attempting to walk up and absorb Susano'o, it is, in essence, an offensive move, not a defensive one. Ergo, it is an attack, and still fits prettily within the stipulations of that particular translation of the Susano'o entry.



> I also fail to see how 'spiritual' is taken so absurdly literally. From the databook:
> 
> *The materialised chakra takes on the form of a war god with a commanding face and powerful physique. His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes...!!
> 
> ...



Read again. The very translation you are using asserts that it is an incorporeal shield that changes its characterstics, which may or may not be elemental, to block not just Ninjutsu, but physical and spiritual attacks as well.

Also, if a defensive move is used offensively, that makes it an attack. If Gaara made a giant sand shield and then dropped it on an enemy, regardless of the intended purpose of the technique, that particular application would be an attack.



> The reason Susanoo itself is so feared is due to the Yata and Totsuka. NOTHING aboutthis being limited to Itachi's Susanoo.
> Ergo, they're materialized chakra.



Except, its explicitly stated that they aren't. In both the manga AND the third databook.



> And as for the claim "Well, only the ribcage appears."
> the only time we've seen that was Sasuke's incomplete version. We see Susanoo's appear quite a bit more instantly, specifically when the user has mastery of them.
> 
> When Gaara and team launch their entire storm, Susanoo's skeletal form? instant. Sasuke's power of hatred DEMs out of Danzo's seal? Full Susanoo suddenly appears.



Except we saw when Itachi activated it that only the ribcage went up.

And besides.

You're wrong; Sasuke's full Susano'o did not appear until after the fight with Danzou. That was still just a gimped version with some flesh on it.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Your point is? My point remains that amaterasu can be countered. I am not sure what yours is.



That it can't be countered by Jiraiya at close range.



Senjuclan said:


> Jiraiya is not faster than the sand. I said he is faster than Gaara = he has faster reflexes. If Gaara can react in time to amaterasu, Jiraiya can. Comparing the sand to Jiraiya is useless.



If Jiraiya is dozens of yards away he can, but Gaara has better reflexes IMHO.



Senjuclan said:


> That is bullshit. The effects can't be cancelled but the* jutsu itself can be cancelled before it takes effect*. Reread the Kakashi vs. Itachi fight



No, you reread the scan I provided. It's instant.



Senjuclan said:


> You conveniently forget that part about THAT GUY is stronger than the Uchiha clan and the seven swordsmen! Not the sannnin, THAT GUY



That guy was not said to be special among the Sanin.


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## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

the weapons do not have to be absorbed. itachi swings the sword of totsuka, and deva knocks it a few 100 meters away, preta then absorbs it with no problem.


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## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Hungry absorbs Susanoo and Animal spams summons while the others use the openings. GG Itachi.

Itachi is strong but Pain is about as perfect a counter as you can get. Itachi's best jutsu are all nearly useless here.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Inu said:


> the weapons do not have to be absorbed. itachi swings the sword of totsuka, and deva knocks it a few 100 meters away, preta then absorbs it with no problem.



Read the Op deva is shutdown, why cant ppl just admit pein loses in this scenerio ?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Inu said:


> the weapons do not have to be absorbed. itachi swings the sword of totsuka, and deva knocks it a few 100 meters away, preta then absorbs it with no problem.



Well, ignoring the OP conditions:

Deva and Hungry Ghost are both occupied after your stunt, Inu, and Itachi hits the paths with an exploding bunshin or Amaterasu. He can then resummon Susano'o if he needs to and this time smash the rest of the realms without issue while spamming Genjutsu.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> Hungry absorbs Susanoo and Animal spams summons while the others use the openings. GG Itachi.
> 
> Itachi is strong but Pain is about as perfect a counter as you can get. Itachi's best jutsu are all nearly useless here.



Itachi makes a kage bushing to counter preta? im so tired of bringing this point up and nobody adressing it.


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Deva and Hungry Ghost are both occupied and Itachi hits Deva with Amaterasu. He can resummon Susano'o later if he needs to and rinse and repeat.



how are they occupied? with fighting itachi? lol...that's the only thing he would be doing. amaterasu gets repelled anyway.

and as far as we know, he can't reactivate susanoo with the sword of totsuka if it's knocked away (assuming itachi even has the stamina to activate it more than once).


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Preta is occupied sucking up Susano'o, and Deva used his interval dragging a giant weapon towards himself (a great idea). The thing is, Susano'o can still smash everything up and Itachi is still free to do anything.


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Itachi makes a kage bushing to counter preta? im so tired of bringing this point up and nobody adressing it.


then preta absorbs it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

In fact, where is it shown that Preta can offensively drain a being while also having his defensive barrier up? Why wouldn't Susano'o just smash Hungry Ghost in to the earth the moment it approached to drain chakra? And why would Deva immediately use his powers offensively when he has never done that IC?


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Preta is occupied sucking up Susano'o, and Deva used his interval dragging a giant weapon towards himself (a great idea). The thing is, Susano'o can still smash everything up and Itachi is still free to do anything.


nagato breaks him out of genjutsu.

and he wouldn't drag it near himself, shinra tensei knocks it in the opposite direction.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Nagato can't break the Genjutsu on the bodies as shown in the Frog Song and by the fact that it requires one to stop all chakra flow - which would deactivate the realms. We know simply surging chakra doesn't work because that is exactly what Naruto tried and failed to do against Itachi's Genjutsu.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Inu said:


> nagato breaks him out of genjutsu.
> 
> and he wouldn't drag it near himself, shinra tensei knocks it in the opposite direction.



He has to shut the chakraflow down and preta with no chakra cannot absorb and deva is shutdown he cannot st cbt or anything please stop bringing up deva


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> In fact, where is it shown that Preta can offensively drain a being while also having his defensive barrier up? Why wouldn't Susano'o just smash Hungry Ghost in to the earth the moment it approached to drain chakra? And why would Deva immediately use his powers offensively when he has never done that IC?


if he sees a giant sword about to attack him, he will obviously block the attack.

and susanoo can do nothing physically to preta since it is nothing but chakra.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

The giant sword isn't chakra IMHO. My question was where is it implied that Hungry Ghost can drain something like he did to Naruto while also having his barrier up? Because it wasn't up when he was draining Naruto, which means Susano'o could easily retaliate before Preta finishes the job.


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Nagato can't break the Genjutsu on the bodies as shown in the Frog Song and by the fact that it requires one to stop all chakra flow - which would deactivate the realms. We know simply surging chakra doesn't work because that is exactly what Naruto tried and failed to do against Itachi's Genjutsu.


so you assume he can't break the genjutsu of the bodies simply because he couldn't to it to one of the strongest in the manga?

and did it occur to you that maybe nagato wanted to ambush jiraiya?

and no, nagato is an outside chakra source so he can break them. it's different than what naruto did.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Inu said:


> if he sees a giant sword about to attack him, he will obviously block the attack.
> 
> and susanoo can do nothing physically to preta since it is nothing but chakra.



He has to RECHARGE and peta is beat down by a kage bushin or genjutsu period. If he attempt to stop the chakraflow he cannot absorb and tsasuno swipes all peins with 1 swing gg?


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> That it can't be countered by Jiraiya at close range.



Why would Jiraiya be at close range anyways? Your point is moot



Soloman said:


> If Jiraiya is dozens of yards away he can, but Gaara has better reflexes IMHO.



Your humble opinion is baseless



Soloman said:


> No, you reread the scan I provided. It's instant.



The full effects are instantaneous but the jutsu itself does not affect you instantaneously. Need proof? Alright.

[naruto=142]14[/naruto]

Itachi uses tsukuyomi in the bottom right panel

It does not affect Itachi until this page
[naruto=142]17-18[/naruto]

Kakashi had plenty of time to talk. It is not instantaneous.



Soloman said:


> That guy was not said to be special among the Sanin.



That is besides the point. Your original claim was that he was talking about the sannin not jiraiya. Care to acknowledge that that claim was false? Furthermore, Kisame thought Jiraiya was special since he called him the GREAT Jiraiya. Jiraiya received the most respect of all the sannin. Kisame admitted inferiority. Claimed he was stronger than the Uchiha clan. Pein said he could have defeated him. Zetsu said he should not be surprised it the invicible Pein such a long time to win since his enemy was Jiraiya. Madara said  the invicible Pein was delayed and he was not surprised because Jiraiya lived up to his reputation. There is a cover that says that not a single person in the ninja world does not know Jiraiya. Jiraiya completed more missions than any other ninja we have info on. He has received more respect than any of the sannin.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> Why would Jiraiya be at close range anyways? Your point is moot



If you want to ignore  we can stop here. He's looking at Itachi from less than ten feet away without a summon out. All of your arguments go out the window right there. Normal Genjutsu at the point would end Jiraiya.



Senjuclan said:


> Kakashi had plenty of time to talk. It is not instantaneous.



Funny, because Kakashi . Or did he not mean that there is no cancelling the effects when he said there was no cancelling the effects? Did he not mean it affects you instantly when he said it affects you instantly?



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> Yo you assume he can't break the genjutsu of the bodies simply because...



I assume nothing. Nagato hasn't shown that capability. _You assume._ I respect your opinion, and you should do the same for mine because, if nothing else, mine is closer to the razor of safe deduction.


----------



## ? (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> The giant sword isn't chakra IMHO. My question was where is it implied that Hungry Ghost can drain something like he did to Naruto while also having his barrier up? Because it wasn't up when he was draining Naruto, which means Susano'o could easily retaliate before Preta finishes the job.


the sword doesn't have to be chakra to get repelled.

i don't think you understand how his absorption works. 

 as long as he is absorbing susanoo, it can't hurt him because trying to smash him with it's hand made of chakra will do nothing. susanoo is made of chakra, thus it can't hurt preta.

if you reply, i'll get back too you later..


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin is just a chakra vacuum- the Yata no Kagami says "Holla." Dodging? This Susano'o doesn't impose any physical burden on Itachi, ergo, it has no weight; it's doubtful any of Pain's bodies could dodge it, since he is geared more towards intercepting and nullifying than dodging.
> 
> Not to mention, it's proven in the manga AND reiterated in the OP that other techniques can be used while Susano'o is up. If Tendou dodges Susano'o, Itachi hits him with Amaterasu while he's in the air.


then you would have to keep in mind that yatas mirror doesnt cover 360 degrees. keep in mind all the while he is being pulled in by bansho tenin. being off balanced his aim isnt going to be good. already mentioned this but reiteration is nice. based on what? never knew this fact was established. and considering it hurts every cell in his body thats clearly an inhibitor. doesnt mean they still cant dodge.

we are still talking about it being bansho tennied into satan btw. so being pulled at such speeds he wont be able to focus.




Nikushimi said:


> Too much Dante's Inferno?
> 
> Itachi isn't a betrayer, herp derp. He pretended to be one, but ultimately, he kept his allegiance to the village. This is stated. So Satan would get indigestion.



the trailer brought back vague memories. 

reading the manga is fun. he killed his clan thus betrayed his clan. and betrayed madara. thus betrayed akatsuki. he was loyal to the village that was good. but is still a betrayer. and satan isnt gonna eat him. DUH!


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

senju you are forgetting itachi slowed down time in the illusion in kakashi's mind it lasted 3 days hence the rest of the pages.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> senju you are forgetting itachi slowed down time in the illusion in kakashi's mind it lasted 3 days hence the rest of the pages.



You can't have it both ways. Either it is INSTANTANEOUS or it is not. Those pages prove it is not. The instantaneous aspect is covered by the effects. Once affected, Kakashi broke down immediately. but the genjutsu itself did not take hold instantaneously. This has to make sense. If it was instantaneous, how could any sharingan user resist it? You can't resist something that is instantaneous unless you control time yourself. How did Hashirama defeat it? If it is instantaneously cast, EVERYBODY should lose to it including Uchihas. However, if the effects take hold immediately, that squares with the rest of the manga


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Asuma said:
			
		

> While this guy was talking, you collapsed.





			
				Kakashi said:
			
		

> It felt like three days, but was only an instant.





			
				Kakashi said:
			
		

> His Genjutsu can affect you in an instant.





			
				Kakashi said:
			
		

> There is no cancelling the effects.



You are literally arguing with every manga statement about the jutsu. Itachi controls time within the Genjutsu, making it seem as though it's many days, but in reality it all occurs within a single moment.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Itachi makes a kage bushing to counter preta? im so tired of bringing this point up and nobody adressing it.



There are 6 Pain bodies. I am sure 1 would step in to stop a KB from interfering with their plans.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> There are 6 Pain bodies. I am sure 1 would step in to stop a KB from interfering with their plans.



And they will get swiped by tsasuno b4 they can step in.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

^ Cyphon, that wasn't the case against Naruto lol


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> You can't have it both ways. Either it is INSTANTANEOUS or it is not. Those pages prove it is not. The instantaneous aspect is covered by the effects. Once affected, Kakashi broke down immediately. but the genjutsu itself did not take hold instantaneously. This has to make sense. If it was instantaneous, how could any sharingan user resist it? You can't resist something that is instantaneous unless you control time yourself. How did Hashirama defeat it? If it is instantaneously cast, EVERYBODY should lose to it including Uchihas. However, if the effects take hold immediately, that squares with the rest of the manga



it works like this you are cast into the genjutsu instantionsly right? then when your caught in tsukiyomi the user controls space and time and even matter,thats why he stabbed kakashi for 72 hours but in the real world only about a second pass, thats why when chiyo explained how to counter genjutsu kakashi said it will not work with tsukiyomi simply because it happends in the real world to fast.


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## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> And they will get swiped by tsasuno b4 they can step in.



Except Susanoo will be getting absorbed. 



Soloman said:


> ^ Cyphon, that wasn't the case against Naruto lol



Naurto isn't Itachi lol


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Pein still handles Kage Bunshin poorly - my point.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> Except Susanoo will be getting absorbed.
> 
> 
> 
> Naurto isn't Itachi lol



When a kagebushin is battling preta?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

you know i realized that itachi doesnt use more than 1 bunshin a battle...


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## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> When a kagebushin is battling preta?



1. Who is Preta? I don't know them by those names.

2. (assuming you mean Hungry) I already said that Pain would send a body to take care of that KB while Hungry absorbs Susanoo. 

Get it now?


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> you know i realized that itachi doesnt use more than 1 bunshin a battle...



Most people don't need to.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> 1. Who is Preta? I don't know them by those names.
> 
> 2. (assuming you mean Hungry) I already said that Pain would send a body to take care of that KB while Hungry absorbs Susanoo.
> 
> Get it now?



With full knowledge why wouldnt itachi send a clone to battle preta first then simply take care of any pein who triies to jump in and seal them with totsuka.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> With full knowledge why wouldnt itachi send a clone to battle preta first then simply take care of any pein who triies to jump in and seal them with totsuka.



I would say the main reason is because Hungry isn't usually the front runner so it isn't Itachi's choice. He could send a KB but the KB would probably run into summons or Demon Pain.


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 28, 2010)

Yeah, given Kage Bunshins are even division of chakra, it might be a *really effing bad idea* to use more than one for a guy with a 2.5 in chakra amount


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> I would say the main reason is because Hungry isn't usually the front runner so it isn't Itachi's choice. He could send a KB but the KB would probably run into summons or Demon Pain.



the kb can run behind tsasuno shield and can simply wait for preta to try and absorb it then strike him and keep in mind the distance is 30 ft the sword of totsuka is easily 20 ft so pein wont get to summon to much b4 a itachi that can run in tsasuno thanks to the op is in his face.



Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, given Kage Bunshins are even division of chakra, it might be a *really effing bad idea* to use more than one for a guy with a 2.5 in chakra amount



Yeah a healthy itachi who started the match in tsasuno realy cant make 1 kage bushing when a sick dieing itachi could use tsukiyomi twice and amatrasu 1 and change direction and summon tsasuno all on the brink of blindness


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> the kb can run behind tsasuno shield and can simply wait for preta to try and absorb it then strike him and keep in mind the distance is 30 ft the sword of totsuka is easily 20 ft so pein wont get to summon to much b4 a itachi that can run in tsasuno thanks to the op is in his face.



How could he hide behind something that is transparent?

That doesn't even make the least bit of sense.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> How could he hide behind something that is transparent?
> 
> That doesn't even make the least bit of sense.



 the shield will still protect him transparent or not from the other realms.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Most people don't need to.


Then you acknowledge that itachi wouldnt make more than 1. that could be disposed of  with a shinra tensei, missle, laser, summon, etc. 



Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, given Kage Bunshins are even division of chakra, it might be a *really effing bad idea* to use more than one for a guy with a 2.5 in chakra amount



further backing my point. exactly.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

@sanji only 1 kagebushin is needed to battle preta


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> @sanji only 1 kagebushin is needed to battle preta



who is to say hungry ghost has to battle it? human, asura, deva, hell, or a summon can take his place as preta attends to more important matters. or he just absorbs the KB.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

We've never seen Itachi take on six people by himself. He knows the cloning jutsu and would use it accordingly.


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## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> the shield will still protect him transparent or not from the other realms.



So now your saying Itachi will make a KB that just stays with him?

Well how does that help?


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> who is to say hungry ghost has to battle it? human, asura, deva, hell, or a summon can take his place as preta attends to more important matters. or he just absorbs the KB.



The kb will be right next to tsasuno and if another realm attemps to battle it they will be sealed by totsuka, and there is no proof that preta can absorb kb's and its oc because pein cannot tell the diffrence between kbs and the real person so why would he try to barrier a real person?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> We've never seen Itachi take on six people by himself. He knows the cloning jutsu and would use it accordingly.



we have seen him take on 2 and 4. once again compeltely OOC even against multiple people.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> The kb will be right next to tsasuno and if another realm attemps to battle it they will be sealed by totsuka, and there is no proof that preta can absorb kb's and its oc because pein cannot tell the diffrence between kbs and the real person so why would he try to barrier a real person?



haha compeltely OOC strategy. KBs are made of chakra. preta absorbs chakra. he tried during naruto fight. are you joking though im not sure.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> So now your saying Itachi will make a KB that just stays with him?
> 
> Well how does that help?



He has full knowledge and knows preta weakness why wouldnt he just keep the clone and protect from the other realms and let it attack preta every time it attempts to absorb something?



sanji's left eye said:


> we have seen him take on 2 and 4. once again compeltely OOC even against multiple people.



consider him knowing pretas ability why would he risk his best move getting absorb if he can simply use a kage bushing to taijutsu it?


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

His 30% clone was aiming to distract the group of four, and he never really fought both Kakashi and Kurenai. He spoke, and Kakashi narrowly saved Kurenai before he flashed in front of them to talk some more.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> His 30% clone was aiming to distract the group of four, and he never really fought both Kakashi and Kurenai. He spoke, and Kakashi narrowly saved Kurenai before he flashed in front of them to talk some more.


doesnt mean he held back. and consideirng he aimed for both ninja (stab kakashi/explode on kurenai) he was fighting both.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Well he immediately used one clone in that instance to even the numbers so what's your point?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Well he immediately used one clone in that instance to even the numbers so what's your point?



that he hasnt shown to even be able to use TKB and better yet in real combat. thus using it would be OOC for him


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> He has full knowledge and knows preta weakness why wouldnt he just keep the clone and protect from the other realms and let it attack preta every time it attempts to absorb something?



Why would Hungry rush forward seeing something like that?

Why not just stay back and let Itachi waste his chakra?


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

So you think he's incapable of making more than one clone at a time and that even though he frequently uses clones to even the numbers or as a tactical maneuver he wouldn't do so in this instance. Fair enough.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> we have seen him take on 2 and 4. once again compeltely OOC even against multiple people.
> 
> 
> 
> haha compeltely OOC strategy. KBs are made of chakra. preta absorbs chakra. he tried during naruto fight. are you joking though im not sure.



He absorbs visual chakra for him to absorb the kage bushin chakra he will have to pin him down and hold him to absorb it like he did with naruto and i dont see how this stragety is oc itachi has knowledge on preta and knows that its weakness is taijutsu and genjutsu the op says he starts the match in tsasuno and deva is down? why not make a kb to taijutsu preta and defend it with tsasuno if need be and swipe the other bodies.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> So you think he's incapable of making more than one clone at a time and that even though he frequently uses clones to even the numbers or as a tactical maneuver he wouldn't do so in this instance. Fair enough.


care to show me scans of him using more than 1 KB in a fight? exactlly. OOC. no evidence to support your claim.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> He absorbs visual chakra for him to absorb the kage bushin chakra he will have to pin him down and hold him to absorb it like he did with naruto and i dont see how this stragety is oc itachi has knowledge on preta and knows that its weakness is taijutsu and genjutsu the op says he starts the match in tsasuno and deva is down? why not make a kb to taijutsu preta and defend it with tsasuno if need be and swipe the other bodies.


he doesnt have to pin him down. OOC once again.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> Why would Hungry rush forward seeing something like that?
> 
> Why not just stay back and let Itachi waste his chakra?



you tell me im not the one who made up preta absorbs tsasuno theory.



sanji's left eye said:


> care to show me scans of him using more than 1 KB in a fight? exactlly. OOC. no evidence to support your claim.



how is 1 kb oc in the scenerio i explained?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

KB is absorbed and a suusano+KB combo is OOC


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> care to show me scans of him using more than 1 KB in a fight? exactlly. OOC. no evidence to support your claim.
> 
> 
> he doesnt have to pin him down. OOC once again.



its nothing oc about it the op said he can cast non ms jutsu while inside tsasuno and why would he make a kb to watch it die and waste chakra? and absorb by what the barrier or skin contact?


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> it works like this you are cast into the genjutsu instantionsly right? then when your caught in tsukiyomi the user controls space and time and even matter,thats why he stabbed kakashi for 72 hours but in the real world only about a second pass, thats why when chiyo explained how to counter genjutsu kakashi said it will not work with tsukiyomi simply because it happends in the real world to fast.



You are stating trivial knowledge without answering my questions. Kakashi talked for a couple of pages. For those two pages he did not feel anything. If you think it is instantaneous, how can a sharingan user counter it?


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Senjuclan said:


> You are stating trivial knowledge without answering my questions. Kakashi talked for a couple of pages. For those two pages he did not feel anything. If you think it is instantaneous, how can a sharingan user counter it?


 he was speaking inside of the illusion not in the real world thats why asuma said 1 sec he herd itachi talkin then the next sec he herd kakashi hit  the ground.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> you tell me im not the one who made up preta absorbs tsasuno theory.



Its not a theory. If someone attacks Pain with a big mass of chakra it seems pretty IC he would absorb it. 

-snip-


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> Its not a theory. If someone attacks Pain with a big mass of chakra it seems pretty IC he would absorb it.
> 
> -snip-



exactly so if he see's tsasuno coming wouldnt it be smart to place him on the frontline so he can absorb instead of backing up and watching bodies get picked off?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> its nothing oc about it the op said he can cast non ms jutsu while inside tsasuno and why would he make a kb to watch it die and waste chakra? and absorb by what the barrier or skin contact?


doesnt mean its IC to make a KB and have it go out and fight while itachi watches over it. makes no difference. its absorbed. preta absorbs chakra. this is common sense at this point. try again.

and you already quoted this. use edit function.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> doesnt mean its IC to make a KB and have it go out and fight while itachi watches over it. makes no difference. its absorbed. preta absorbs chakra. this is common sense at this point. try again.
> 
> and you already quoted this. use edit function.



Itachi has never used kb while in tsasuno so you cant say its oc or ic but the op says he can cast non ms jutsu in this scenerio and thatss the jutsu i think he would cast because there's 6 bodies i also think itachi would protect the kb because he knows has full knowledge, and as far as preta absorbing a kb it does matter because if he doesnt use the barrier he will be swiped by the sword of totsuka and i dont believe preta can absorb  kb with the barrier if he can please show me a link.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

if he has never done it then its OOC.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> if he has never done it then its OOC.



so then the op is implying this is a oc itachi read the op it says he can run while inside tsasuno and can jump and cast non ms jutsu while inside it .


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

having the ability to and whether he will actually do it are 2 different things.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> having the ability to and whether he will actually do it are 2 different things.



Then what would be the point of the op? why would atlantic waste his time with those stipulations?


----------



## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> having the ability to and whether he will actually do it are 2 different things.



Its still a possible scenario.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Then what would be the point of the op? why would atlantic waste his time with those stipulations?


ask atlantic then. if that was his intent have him clarify.



Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Its still a possible scenario.


no one acknowledged that it was impossible. however itachi using susano then using a KB then having said KB go fight 1 paticular hungry ghost while susano watches over them is completely OOC. its possible for naruto to have 200 KBs make rasengans and rush an enemy from all sides. however its OOC thus he wouldnt do it.  once susano is unleashed its most IC for itachi to use that to fight and the fact that the KB will easily be absorbed make the whole scenario null and void.


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> ask atlantic then. if that was his intent have him clarify.
> 
> 
> no one acknowledged that it was impossible. however itachi using susano then using a KB then having said KB go fight 1 paticular hungry ghost while susano watches over them is completely OOC. its possible for naruto to have 200 KBs make rasengans and rush an enemy from all sides. however its OOC thus he wouldnt do it.  once susano is unleashed its most IC for itachi to use that to fight and the fact that the KB will easily be absorbed make the whole scenario null and void.



you still havent clarified just how preta is going to absorb the kb if you opt for barrier then provide a link that shows him absorbing a kb via barrier if you dont opt for barrier  then is getting beat up by the kb or is getting swiped by tsasuno and its his thread he made up so i dont see why he has to make itachi ic if he doesnt want to.  Also itachi has acces to shushin no justsu which i didnt even go into because then this would just become a stomp i gave the kb scenerio to make this debatable


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

KBs=chakra. hhungry ghost absorbs chakra. read just 1 chapter of the manga and then come back and try to debate. its a simple concept. quit being so ignorant. thanks


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 28, 2010)

What part of 'any' chakra based technique is unclear?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> he was speaking inside of the illusion not in the real world thats why asuma said 1 sec he herd itachi talkin then the next sec he herd kakashi hit  the ground.



He was not. The illusion starts on page 17-18 where Kishi shows Itachi with a katana and at that point he starts stabbing him.


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## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> no one acknowledged that it was impossible. however itachi using susano then using a KB then having said KB go fight 1 paticular hungry ghost while susano watches over them is completely OOC. its possible for naruto to have 200 KBs make rasengans and rush an enemy from all sides. however its OOC thus he wouldnt do it.  once susano is unleashed its most IC for itachi to use that to fight and the fact that the *KB will easily be absorbed make the whole scenario null and void*.



A KB is basically chakra division of the original. 

Gakidou wouldnt just "absorb" it out of the blue, it would have to touch it.

if it was a Bunshin Daibakuha, the moment Gakidou is about to touch the clone it would explode. The clone would be inside the absorbtion barrier and once it was set off, Gakidou would not have enough time to absorb it, before he is in pieces.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> A KB is basically chakra division of the original.
> 
> Gakidou wouldnt just "absorb" it out of the blue, it would have to touch it.
> 
> if it was a Bunshin Daibakuha, the moment Gakidou is about to touch the clone it would explode. The clone would be inside the absorbtion barrier and once it was set off, Gakidou would not have enough time to absorb it, before he is in pieces.


i know.

this is why its sometimes annoying when people come out of the blue. the initial strategy he was presenting that you defended involved engaging hungry ghost in taijutsu with the bunshin. thus absorbed.

ok this honestly makes no sense. if it explodes then the absorption barrier will already be up if its right before he is about to touch it like you said. then all of that chakra unleashed will simply be absorbed by the barrier.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> KBs=chakra. hhungry ghost absorbs chakra. read just 1 chapter of the manga and then come back and try to debate. its a simple concept. quit being so ignorant. thanks



First off kage bushins are made with chakra but im positive thats not all they contain,preta was shown only to absorb techniqes that is made up of all chakra so like i said show me proof that he can absorb a kage bushin with his barrier because i dont see how he can. If he ops for the method he used against naruto he will have to engage itachi and attempt to pin him down to absorb the chakra out the kb's body.

Just because i disagree with you does not make me ignorant, preta has never been shown to absorb a kagebushin and he fought naruto who spams the techniqe the most, so in your words "it has never been shown so its ooc" the op says pein is ic stop trying to bend the op rules just so pein can win. 

Its so many ways itachi can get rid of preta, genjutsu ? pein will have to stop his chakra control to void it so itachi can run up with tsasuno swing the sword of totsuka and if fat pein attemps to absorb he can cast a genjutsu on him so by the time pein voids the genjutsu he will be in a bottle of sake.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

that is indeed all they contain. dont make up fanfic.

yes unfortunately it does. youre attempting to make up fail strategies that are OOC. voiding a jutsus function because it suits you isnt OOC. by your logic FRS doesnt cut anything but human realm because it hasnt been shown. but my points already been proven. 

everything else has already been addressed throughout the thread and is irrelavent to the discussion. the fact that you have to change your argument already shows your concession. i suggest reading the manga though. makes debating a lot easier


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> that is indeed all they contain. dont make up fanfic.
> 
> yes unfortunately it does. youre attempting to make up fail strategies that are OOC. voiding a jutsus function because it suits you isnt OOC. by your logic FRS doesnt cut anything but human realm because it hasnt been shown. but my points already been proven.
> 
> everything else has already been addressed throughout the thread and is irrelavent to the discussion. the fact that you have to change your argument already shows your concession. i suggest reading the manga though. makes debating a lot easier



why do you keep bringing up ooc for itachi when it was never stated that this itachi is ic? and you never elaberate on your answers, preta can absorb 2 ways by skin contact absorbing the chakra out of someone and the barrier i keep asking which one are you using because preta will be trying to absorb tsasuno b4 the kb attacks if he opts for barrier kb can cast a genjutsu and if he opts for skin contact he is getting swipe.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Hungry Ghost doesn't absorb all types of chakra. I would ask that you remain polite to Lelouch as he is being open to your view that Preta Realm can absorb Susano'o at all.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Hungry Ghost doesn't absorb all types of chakra. I would ask that you remain polite to Lelouch as he is being open to your view that Preta Realm can absorb Susano'o at all.


it doesnt? based on what? perhaps sage chakra is being referred to however it was still absorbed. and considering this isnt about naruto/jiraiya anyway... i dont understand the point/meaning behind that 1st statement. Its not really a matter to be open to. Hungry ghost absorbs chakra. Susano=chakra. Common Sense ftw. now one can argue yatas mirror as that isnt chakra. Oh and sorry if reading the posts compelled you to make such a comment. Ignorance bothers me in large quantites.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm merely pointing out that it works both ways, Sanji. Is Preta Path's ability not a Ninjutsu? Well, then we have an issue about which ability reigns supreme given the databook has an unstoppable force attacking an immovable object:



			
				Susano'o said:
			
		

> The Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.





			
				Susano'o said:
			
		

> The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.





			
				Susano'o said:
			
		

> Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory.



I don't like people who believe they are absolutely right. I am open to your interpretation, and yet you refuse to hear anything else. It is very likely that Susano'o could make a major dent in Pein as Preta will not counter it fully, if at all, and will not do so before some significant damage is done.


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## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> .
> 
> this is why its sometimes annoying when people come out of the blue. the initial strategy he was presenting that you defended involved engaging hungry ghost in taijutsu with the bunshin. thus absorbed.



No, he would have to try to absorb first, like he did when he absorbed the senjutsu chakra of Naruto.



If he is able to absorb so easily, whilst engaged in taijutsu, why did h use the corpse as a shield?...why not absorb the chakra from the attack?

How would Gakidou be able to tell if it was a KB or not?

He would engage normally in taijutsu.




> ok this honestly makes no sense. if it explodes then the absorption barrier will already be up if its right before he is about to touch it like you said. then all of that chakra unleashed will simply be absorbed by the barrier.





But what if he 

or brabs any part of his body first. He is now inside the absorbtion barrier, and as Gakidou doesnt know its a KB or even that it explodes, how could he react in time before he is blown up?

I dont buy it that he can just absorb anything, regardless of what position he's in...most attacks he's absorbed, hes saw coming or knew what it was, ready to absorb; this he wouldnt.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 28, 2010)

He merely didn't have the barrier active at that point. We've seen him absorb chakra from people at identical close quarters when it wanted to.

An exploding bunshin will do nothing to Pain, though.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> I'm merely pointing out that it works both ways, Sanji. Is Preta Path's ability not a Ninjutsu? Well, then we have an issue about which ability reigns supreme given the databook has an unstoppable force attacking an immovable object:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how so?

when you dont understand an argument you might want to ask before just posting. lets see what i said.

*Hungry ghost absorbs chakra. Susano=chakra. Common Sense ftw. now one can argue yatas mirror as that isnt chakra.*
every thing you posted pertained to yatas mirror not the actual body of susano. thus you dont even understand the argument presented as no where did i say yatas mirror is made of chakra. hell i jsut said in a thread like an hour or 2 ago how it isnt made of chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

The item is defending Susano'o. Hungry Ghost can't make it to Susano'o because the shield defends it. Thus Preta Path's jutsu would be turned back on to itself before being obliterated by an offensive counter unless you believe Pein would intuitively circumvent it without knowledge. Please don't insult me and accuse me of failing to understand the situation when your expectations of Pain are unrealistic granted his ignorance and Itachi's knowledge. 





			
				Original Post said:
			
		

> Knowledge: Itachi knows of everything about Hungry Realm.


----------



## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He merely didn't have the barrier active at that point. We've seen him absorb chakra from people at identical close quarters when it wanted to.
> 
> *An exploding bunshin will do nothing to Pain, though*.



That is illogical.




Databook 2 - Bunshin Daibakuha:  
Bunshin Daibakuha


Black: Threatening,* the shadows ensnare the prey, then together, they explode!!*
Picture: Timed explosion. The scale of the detonation is enormous...!!

Kage Bunshin used as a lure. The opponent uses the principle "Attack to defeat 
the enemy", then becomes a victim of the blast...
Those who can tell that you are fighting a Kage Bunshin may be able to escape 
the blast. But preparations immediately following obvious preparations should 
catch the opponent in the jutsu.


If he didnt have the barrier active, how could he absorb it, before he is blown apart, especially as he wouldnt know it could explode in the first place?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> No, he would have to try to absorb first, like he did when he absorbed the senjutsu chakra of Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and then he would instantly be absorbed.

thats a taijutsu attack. taijutsu is an art which uses little-no chakra except in special cases like jyuuken. and no one was a bunshin. so it wouldnt have done anything. and he was blindsided

common sense for pain really. 1 itachi in the susano being protected and the other that has run out to do his bidding. kinda obvious for him. or he just checks.

it wasnt being absorbed so it was obvious it was the original.

not if its in a KB. and not with 5 other pains on his ass.





Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> But what if he
> 
> or brabs any part of his body first. He is now inside the absorbtion barrier, and as Gakidou doesnt know its a KB or even that it explodes, how could he react in time before he is blown up?
> 
> I dont buy it that he can just absorb anything, regardless of what position he's in...most attacks he's absorbed, hes saw coming or knew what it was, ready to absorb; this he wouldnt.



well if he does the same thing then notice how he put up the barrier but the only reason he wasnt absorbed was because it was the original naruto. if its a KB then it will be absorbed just as any other chakra based ninjutsu was.

forutnately he will know its a KB by the common sense i put above or he can at least check.

the barrier is pretty big. its not too unreasonable anyway


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

You assume that Itachi's Kage Bunshin can't use the Mangekyō Sharingan?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> The item is defending Susano'o. Hungry Ghost can't make it to Susano'o because the shield defends it. Thus Preta Path's jutsu would be turned back on to itself before being obliterated by an offensive counter unless you believe Pein would intuitively circumvent it without knowledge. Please don't insult me and accuse me of failing to understand the situation when your expectations of Pain are unrealistic granted his ignorance and Itachi's knowledge.



then you also understand that pain is made up of 6 bodies. 6 different bodies that can attack from 6 different directions. or leave hell realm back. 5 diff bodies that can attack form 5 different directions. meaning that the side thats uncovered from yatas mirrors is the side it goes to. i didnt think that really needed to be explained but...

and its not an insult if you really dont understand the situation. we were discussing pains ability to absorb susano. that the possibility is there that it can indeed be done. the fact that i already disregarded the yatas mirror in this debate shows you had no idea what was being discussed. now if youd like to factor that in as well then sure i have done that above.



Soloman said:


> You assume that Itachi's Kage Bunshin can't use the Mangekyō Sharingan?



i have not seen him do it. there is no feat of it. so no


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Maybe I should repeat myself: Itachi has full knowledge. Meaning he can let the Pain bodies surround him because Hungry Ghost is the only one who could possibly pose a threat to Susano'o in this scenario. Yet again you have Pein acting OOC though. Nagato does not split up his bodies as that is their primary weakness, being divided. If Itach makes a Kage Bunshin and has that one form a Susano'o as well then Pein is in even hotter water .


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## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> and then he would instantly be absorbed.
> 
> thats a taijutsu attack. taijutsu is an art which uses little-no chakra except in special cases like jyuuken. and no one was a bunshin. so it wouldnt have done anything. and he was blindsided
> 
> ...



A move like Gatsuga would still use chakra as it is a special taijutsu move, not normal taijutsu.

Im not even talking about Susanoo lol








> well if he does the same thing then notice how he put up the barrier but the only reason he wasnt absorbed was because it was the original naruto. if its a KB then it will be absorbed just as any other chakra based ninjutsu was.
> 
> *forutnately he will know its a KB by the common sense i put above or he can at least check.*
> 
> the barrier is pretty big. its not too unreasonable anyway



Wait, what?

How can he check...he doesnt have his barrier activated constantly. Why would he hve it activated in a taijutsu contest if he didnt know he was facing a KB?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Maybe I should repeat myself: Itachi has full knowledge. Meaning he can let the Pain bodies surround him because Hungry Ghost is the only one who could possibly pose a threat to Susano'o in this scenario. Yet again you have Pein acting OOC though. Nagato does not split up his bodies as that is their primary weakness, being divided. If Itach makes a Kage Bunshin and has that one form a Susano'o as well then Pein is in even hotter water .



care to show me the feat of itachi having a KB make a susano? or any MS jutsu? leave fanfics at home buddy. they would when fighting jiraiya. and naruto for that matter.


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## Thunder (Mar 28, 2010)

A clone shouldn't be able to use an attack like Susano'o. It drains the users energy. The clone would instantly disperse, assuming it can use such a move in the first place.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> A move like Gatsuga would still use chakra as it is a special taijutsu move, not normal taijutsu.
> 
> Im not even talking about Susanoo lol


I dont believe so for 1. and lets assume it does. is that chakra tangible for him to absorb? and would this abosrption of chakra suddenly stop their taijutsu? no it wouldnt taijutsu=/=ninjutsu if you didnt know.

its evident you dont understand whats being debated.






Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> How can he check...he doesnt have his barrier activated constantly. Why would he hve it activated in a taijutsu contest if he didnt know he was facing a KB?



explained it in the post you attemtped to respond to.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

A Kage Bunshin can use all the techniques of the original and is an even split of chakra. I would ask for someone to provide a single iota of evidence as to why a Kage Bunshin would be unable to use the Mangekyō Sharingan.


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## MSAL (Mar 28, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> A clone shouldn't be able to use an attack like Susano'o. It drains the users energy. The clone would instantly disperse, assuming it can use such a move in the first place.



Why didnt Hiruzen's clones disperse whilst they were using Shiki Fuujin?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

_Shadow Clone Technique (影分身の術, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
Users: Uzumaki Naruto, Hatake Kakashi, et al

A ninjutsu that creates a true copy of something. What makes it different from the normal "Clone Technique"* is that it creates a clone with substance, making them able to perform physical attacks. It's a high grade ninjutsu, allowing the clone to various techniques of the user. It used to be Naruto's worst skill, but nowadays it's his favourite by far. The way he uses it is also extraordinarily clever._

*various techniques* and not all techniques is the key phrase. its also understood that damage to a KB destroys it. damaging ones eyes with the attempted use of a MS jutsu would cause it to pop. 

_Shapeshifting* Technique (象転の術, Shouten no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, All ranges
User: Pain

Transferring one's chakra to a sacrifice and possessing them
As long as they stay alive, they'll play the part of a strong person!!

Pain allocates chakra from an "Akatsuki" member to a target person, allowing them to fight via an elaborate "copy". The power of the copy is in proportion to the volume of allocated chakra. The *original's abilities* are also available...!! However, once the chakra runs out, the technique is cancelled and the copy dies. As it even uses up the target's chakra, this is an incredibly brutal technique._

this also says original abilities in the DB yet its known not all jutsu are accessible.

oh and did i mention theres no feat of it and its OOC?


----------



## Thunder (Mar 28, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Why didnt Hiruzen's clones disperse whilst they were using Shiki Fuujin?



Its kind of different as it is a sealing jutsu. The clones did disperse after the sealing was complete. In this scenario we are talking about a clone using a damaging technique over a period of time. I don't see how it can be maintained.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Sanji, obviously damage doesn't necessarily destroy Itachi's clones:



If his clones can tank a _Chidori mace_ they can handle deteriorating vision.



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> A ninjutsu that creates *a true copy* of something



There you go.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 28, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Sanji, obviously damage doesn't necessarily destroy Itachi's clones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that was a crow clone. it still couldnt function other than say 2 words anyway. a jutsu that uses less chakra then a KB thus could potentially not even have the chakra for MS.

KBs cant though.

look up what a hyperbole is and read the whole DB and manga. if it was true then logically they would never disappear. vague statements dont support your argument.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2010)

Still, Itachi's clones can sustain damage without dispersing and can use the original's techniques. You're just picking and choosing variations now to fit what you want to be possible and impossible without any solid evidence that such a maneuver fails to fall within the realm of reason.


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## MSAL (Mar 29, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Its kind of different as it is a sealing jutsu. The clones did disperse after the sealing was complete. In this scenario we are talking about a clone using a damaging technique over a period of time. I don't see how it can be maintained.



Yes, but what i was implying, was that Hiruzen's KB were used as medium for Shiki Fuujin to pass through. So, Itachi's should be able to be used as a medium for Susano'o.

I also agree, that because of the nature of Susano'o, that if this was tried it would not be able to be maintained for very long...

However...

Whats to stop this being used for just a momenrary attack or diversion in conjunction with a strategy, then dispersing, much the same way as Hiruzen used his to transfer Shiku Fuujin through to the Edo Tensei Zombies?

I think this is feasible, given that a KB is a division of the originals chakra and not a typical bunshin no jutsu.


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> Yes, but what i was implying, was that Hiruzen's KB were used as medium for Shiki Fuujin to pass through. So, Itachi's should be able to be used as a medium for Susano'o.
> 
> I also agree, that because of the nature of Susano'o, that if this was tried it would not be able to be maintained for very long...
> 
> ...



Oh, I see where your coming from. If it was just used as a temporary thing, it shouldn't be a problem. However, it might be a bit much for Itachi to maintain a kage bunshin that is also using Susano'o, even for a short time.


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## MSAL (Mar 29, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Oh, I see where your coming from. If it was just used as a temporary thing, it shouldn't be a problem. However, it might be a bit much for Itachi to maintain a kage bunshin that is also using Susano'o, even for a short time.



But if he was using it for a quick defence/offense, or even very quick misdirection, do you agree it could be done?


----------



## Thunder (Mar 29, 2010)

Mangekyou SharingAL said:


> But if he was using it for a quick defence/offense, or even very quick misdirection, do you agree it could be done?



Yes, it should be possible.


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

It'd have to be very quick. If he screwed up, he could go down, hard.


----------



## Kyuuzen (Mar 29, 2010)

Itachi wins with mid difficulty.

Alright, so under the assumption that Susano'o isn't slow and can swing Totsuka as fast as Itachi would be able to swing a blade, the Realms are hard-pressed to find a way around it.  I personally don't think you can absorb susano'o, let alone the Totsuka blade while it's being swung but, for the sake of argument, let's say you can.

Itachi is allowed all justu outside of MS and can move freely, while Deva is recharging.  So here's how the battle goes, I hope it doesn't seem to unbelievable.


Fight:

The Paths are going to want Deva to live, so they will be going for the formation that they used against Naruto to protect Deva.  If any summons are called into play Itachi deals with them easily enough with Totsuka.  Now then, it doesn't say Itachi can't use his non-MS sharingan jutsu, but I won't make use of them just so there are no tribulations.

Itachi has full info on Hungry Ghost, Human, and Animal realm, so he will avoid them however he deems is the best way to avoid them.  He kills at least one Realm with Totsuka before they wise up and realize the potential the blade has, and calculate it's ginormous reach.

They try to play it safe.  At this point, around 47 seonds has passed, so Deva's not battling anytime soon.  Itachi analyzes the Realm's individual abilities when they come into play.  I think we can all agree that if the Realm's attempted to absorb Susano'o it wouldn't be instantaneous.  Itachi quickly destroys that Realm.  They try and bring him back from the dead, which Itachi realizes after they revive him the first time.  It won't happen again.  He kills the revival Realm and then the chakra-absorb realm.  Animal realm attempts summoning again, but Susano'o > Animal's summons.  He may have trouble with the bird based on it's ability to fly, but when it comes into range for an attack it is destroyed.  I doubt cerberus could use it's disperse technique after getting hit by susano'o, but, again, let's say it can.  This is where Itachi has more trouble, killing the sheer mass amount of dogs.  But with katon and susano'o combinations they should still go down.

By this point two minutes, 23 seconds has passed, approximately.  Deva is preparing his onslaught.  Itachi finishes up with his annihilation of the summons and then destroys more realms, he kills the one with the head laser after little trouble, seeing as he has his Yata Mirror shield.  He then kills three more realms, Animal realm and any other two besides Deva.  This leaves Deva.  Itachi attacks Deva who (I doubt he could do this without CST, but, again for the sake of argument.) uses ST to knock away Itachi and Susano'o.  So now Itachi knows of that trick.  Itachi continues attacking, making Deva expend ST again and again, and before too long, realizes he has a five-second recharge.

Deva would be stupid to uses BT on Susano'o, it just comes after him and can slice him into oblivion.  He keeps it away using ST while also trying to get close enough to Nagato for CT.  He keeps running while pushing Susano'o away occasionally, then releases CT.  Itachi is caught off-gaurd as he begins to be pulled in out of nowhere.  This is where Deva gets finished off as well.

While flying upward, Itachi swings out in a quick attack in order to kill Deva.  Deva, who has stopped running and used CT, is caught by this and CT stops forming, seeing as Nagato's tools for using jutsu are gone.

It may take Itachi a little while, but before the day is over he finds Nagato and ends him.


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Kyuukudo said:


> Itachi wins with mid difficulty.
> 
> Alright, so under the assumption that Susano'o isn't slow and can swing Totsuka as fast as Itachi would be able to swing a blade, the Realms are hard-pressed to find a way around it.  I personally don't think you can absorb susano'o, let alone the Totsuka blade while it's being swung but, for the sake of argument, let's say you can.


You don't think? Based on what? Susanoo and its equipment are made of chakra. Know what the databook says?
*An inexhaustible vortex, absorbing all techniques!!

By spinning the chakra flow within one's body in the opposite direction, all of the opponent's techniques aimed at oneself will be absorbed. The absorbed chakra is dispersed within the body. Like a bottomless swamp, the power is swallowed.

[picture of Pain's Preta Realm absorbing Jiraiya's Super-Big Ball Rasengan]
↑All techniques are absorbed and made ineffective, regardless of the nature of the chakra.
*
I'm unsure how much clearer it can be made



> Itachi is allowed all justu outside of MS and can move freely, while Deva is recharging.  So here's how the battle goes, I hope it doesn't seem to unbelievable
> 
> 
> Fight:
> ...


How, precisely? He'll be swamped from all sides. He slashes the cerberus, it multiplies


> Itachi has full info on Hungry Ghost, Human, and Animal realm, so he will avoid them however he deems is the best way to avoid them.  He kills at least one Realm with Totsuka before they wise up and realize the potential the blade has, and calculate it's ginormous reach.


Yeah, terrible shame that Hungry Ghost will intercept and absorb it if he tries.
Or they'll dodge



> They try to play it safe.  At this point, around 47 seonds has passed, so Deva's not battling anytime soon.  Itachi analyzes the Realm's individual abilities when they come into play.  I think we can all agree that if the Realm's attempted to absorb Susano'o it wouldn't be instantaneous.  Itachi quickly destroys that Realm.


With what?  Hungry Ghost is remarkably fast and absorbs Jutsu very, very quickly. And with Susanoo no longer covering Itachi, he needs to move with summons and missiles attacking him



> They try and bring him back from the dead, which Itachi realizes after they revive him the first time.  It won't happen again.  He kills the revival Realm and then the chakra-absorb realm.


So, in your version of the fight, the Realms are slow or immobile and Itachi's got far greater speed? What?



> Animal realm attempts summoning again, but Susano'o > Animal's summons.  He may have trouble with the bird based on it's ability to fly, but when it comes into range for an attack it is destroyed.  I doubt cerberus could use it's disperse technique after getting hit by susano'o, but, again, let's say it can.  This is where Itachi has more trouble, killing the sheer mass amount of dogs.  But with katon and susano'o combinations they should still go down.


Based on what? How'll katons do a thing? And how'll he harm the cerberus? It multiplies when cut, meaning it won't be sealed. The other realsm, again, are very, very fast.



> By this point two minutes, 23 seconds has passed, approximately.  Deva is preparing his onslaught.  Itachi finishes up with his annihilation of the summons and then destroys more realms, he kills the one with the head laser after little trouble, seeing as he has his Yata Mirror shield.


The header laser showed more power than Kirin, which blew through Susanoo and partially injured Itachi, spare us



> He then kills three more realms, Animal realm and any other two besides Deva.  This leaves Deva.  Itachi attacks Deva who (I doubt he could do this without CST, but, again for the sake of argument.) uses ST to knock away Itachi and Susano'o.  So now Itachi knows of that trick.  Itachi continues attacking, making Deva expend ST again and again, and before too long, realizes he has a five-second recharge.


Again, your scenario is plain BAD. It relies on the Realms being remarkably slow and weak with no abilities that can lay a finger on the supposed Sharingan God (who is the most overrated character in Naruto bar none).
Pain will of course stand still, endlessly spamming things and not just summon gedo Mazo, use Chibaku Tensei or a stronger ST...why?



> Deva would be stupid to uses BT on Susano'o, it just comes after him and can slice him into oblivion.  He keeps it away using ST while also trying to get close enough to Nagato for CT.  He keeps running while pushing Susano'o away occasionally, then releases CT.  Itachi is caught off-gaurd as he begins to be pulled in out of nowhere.  This is where Deva gets finished off as well.


There's a disconnect. Somehow, while getting yanked up, Deva is hurt? PLEASE



> While flying upward, Itachi swings out in a quick attack in order to kill Deva.  Deva, who has stopped running and used CT, is caught by this and CT stops forming, seeing as Nagato's tools for using jutsu are gone.


despite Deva being faster than Itachi and great at dodging? Despite Itachi being sucked up out of range?



> It may take Itachi a little while, but before the day is over he finds Nagato and ends him.



Or more reasonably, Nagato revives the Realms himself and Shinra Tenseis Itachi into them,.

One of the worst scenarios I've heard here


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

^ The shield turns Preta Path's jutsu back on itself. lol at him being fast.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

The shield is absorbed as well. It can also only repel attacks. Preta's absorption is a defensive jutsu.

And given Preta evaded the entirety of the Inuzuka on his own and intercepted an FRS in a second, which has impressive speed feats? Yep, it's fast. Let me guess...if it's fat, it's slow


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## Soul (Mar 29, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Itachi's Sharingan is pretty much useless against Rinnegan



Proof?



> Funfact- Did you guys know Pein can Summon the bodies out too?



Proof?



> Itachi's second rate eye techniques were never shown to work against the superior Rinnegan.



_Nagato's second rate eye techniques were never shown to work against the superior Sharingan._

See what I did there? 



> In fact they didnt even work against Sasuke's sharingan



False; Itachi's Genjutsu was effective a lot of times in their fight.



Lightysnake said:


> You don't think? Based on what? *Susanoo and its equipment are made of chakra.* Know what the databook says?



Do you have proof?
How can items be made of chakra?


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## Angoobo (Mar 29, 2010)

They're spiritual items, and chakra is made with spiritual+physical energy.
If Hungry Realm is able to absorb every chakra based attack(and even natural energy), i guess we can assume with certainty that he's able to absorb mere spiritual items.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The shield is absorbed as well. It can also only repel attacks. Preta's absorption is a defensive jutsu.



It repels all jutsu. Preta didn't intercept the FRS.





> The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.





> the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.



Chakra is a substance as well and isn't as volatile as this.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

-snip-

Didn't intercept it, huh?

The section he posted even notes that the Yata's Mirror just repels attacks. Nothing about defensive techniques.
Moreover, he missed-or willfully omitted, this:



> The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu²," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi³," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo". The materialised chakra takes on the form of a war god with a commanding face and powerful physique. His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes...!!
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> There is a reason "Susanoo" boasts absolute perfection in both offence and defence~~ That reason is the "Sacred Treasures*" he holds in both hands. In his right hand is the "Totsuka Sword"** that will strike down any kind of enemy and the shield in his left hand is the "Yata Mirror"*** that will reflect all attacks. Whether they be material or spiritual, ninjutsu or physical attacks, they all lose their meaning before this god's potency.





> Blocking Technique Absorption Seal* (封術吸印, Fuujutsu Kyuuin)
> Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Pain
> 
> ...



Yata's mirror changes the property *OF ITS CHAKRA* Based on the technique. Susanoo only reflects attacks and the absorption is defensive only.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

I posted the link showing that Preta was standing in front of Deva before the FRS was thrown. -snip- Your scan was four pages after mine.

Additionally, Susano'o is stated to make a jutsu ineffective. If Preta uses his jutsu offensively, it becomes offensive. You're stating that Susano'o can't block Preta's attack because Preta's attack is a defense. Which is absurd.

Please stop acting as if your way is the only way. It's not.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

-snip-

Your post:

Page...14 is it?

What page does the interception happen on?

Oh, right. Page *ten*

And then Naruto thinks 'but I thought he was dead'. 

So, either Kishimoto is showing things in reverse chronology  and is having Naruto acting more like a moron than should be humanly possible orrrrrr...
-snip-


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

My mistake, I was looking at the . It's still not notable-enough speed feat for Preta to be pressuring Itachi IMHO.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

You: No he didn't! Here's proof!
Me: That's page 14. The interception happened on page 10, which was the first time we saw HG since it died the first time.

-snip-


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, I apologized for the error, I was looking at the second FRS used. However, Preta stopping an FRS that Naruto spent several moments preparing and then throwing from dozens of yards away isn't equivalent to him intercepting Amaterasu without knowledge or outmaneuvering Itachi at all.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Several moments? Try a literal heartbeat.

When it is thrown, HG is nowhere in sight. And FRS has serious speed feats to back it up. So HG had to arrive from....out of Naruto's sight and that area in that time to intercept it.

Supposing Itachi gets an Amaterasu off, supposing HG fails to intercept, it'll get there and absorb the flames off the body while the other bodies are attacking.

-snip-


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Itachi's Amaterasu is not Sasuke's Amaterasu. His does damage immediately.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

No, he doesn't. Zetsu noted Itachi's Amaterasu 'converged' on the opponent and it had to chase Sasuke


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Unless I am mistaken again, every time Itachi's Amaterasu has made contact it does severe damage immediately.


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## Ra (Mar 29, 2010)

There's a misconception about hungry Ghost absorbing ability regarding susanoo.

Firstly, If susanoo swing it's sword at Ghost or endeavor to impale Ghost, Ghost is *NOT* absorbing the sword *instantly*. Ghost absorbing ability isn't fast at all, it took him time to absorb a giant rasengan that was heading towards him. Unlike Susanoo sword, it's strikes very fast and has a very large amount of momentum behind it. It's more likely Susanoo sword would impale or hack through ghost even whilst  his absorbing shield is in effect.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> There's a misconception about hungry Ghost absorbing ability regarding susanoo.
> 
> Firstly, If susanoo swing it's sword at Ghost or endeavor to impale Ghost, Ghost is *NOT* absorbing the sword *instantly*. Ghost absorbing ability isn't fast at all, it took him time to absorb a giant rasengan that was heading towards him. Unlike Susanoo sword, it's strikes very fast and has a very large amount of momentum behind it. It's more likely Susanoo sword would impale or hack through ghost even whilst  his absorbing shield is in effect.



It took him two panels to absorb a giant Rasengan. And the Rasengan stopped being deadly when he was absorbing it.

You know something? Susanoo isn't faster than the FRS, which covered an enter mountain range in the blank of an eye, yet it was absorbed. Speed is not an issue. If it touches him while the barrier is active, then the attack stops and it's sucked up.

So, no, that kind of totally misunderstands how HG works


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

FRS arguably didn't do that. It likely came from the other side of panel. You can see that the tress are in front of and behind Naruto and Deva which means thy're enclosed in the area where the blast occurred. Susano'o has three arms anyways. Preta Path can't be three places at once and he likely can't absorb the weaponry and can't assault Susano'o itself due to the shield.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Damn shame for your argument that, as you continue to ignore,-snip- Soloman, that he is not 'assaulting' Susanoo, he is reacting. The databook makes it clear the weapons are part of Susanoo. Chakra constructs. How else does the Yata's Mirror change its chakra depending on the attack?

If Susanoo strikes, HG is there, with its shield...and then the entirety of Susanoo is sucked up. Remember. DEFENSIVE Jutsu. Susanoo only repels attacks. 

And FRS arguably didn't do that, of course. Post another page out of order, Sol. -snip-


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## ZE (Mar 29, 2010)

Fat Pain is not as slow as some are making him out to be. He was fast enough not to be blitzed by Jiraiya, dodged Sage Mode Naruto?s punch, dodged Kiba and his mom?s attack (Kiba is a 4.5) and when the frogs tried to attack him he also avoided them without much problems. 

Anyway, if Itachi can?t kill Deva, he won?t win this fight. And to kill Deva he has to get around the five seconds interval, which, I don?t think he can. If he uses the sword to strike, Deva will repel it, and Susanoo?s arm is likely to disperse. If amateratsu is used, it will also be repelled. Tsukuyumi won?t work because Deva doesn?t even have to open his eyes the entire fight. If Itachi doesn?t collapse of too much susanoo usage, Chibaku Tensei will end it sooner or later. 



Soloman said:


> Unless I am mistaken again, every time Itachi's Amaterasu has made contact it does severe damage immediately.



If that was the case, Sasuke wouldn?t have had the time to make a substitution jutsu. We don?t know how much time passed since he was being burned by the flames. The black flames are the black flames; they aren?t more or less powerful depending on the user, that was never stated. The only difference is how you manipulate them. Jiraiya?s frog stomach jutsu was being burned by Itachi?s black flames at a slow rate, just like the forest. 



Ra said:


> There's a misconception about hungry Ghost absorbing ability regarding susanoo.
> 
> Firstly, If susanoo swing it's sword at Ghost or endeavor to impale Ghost, Ghost is *NOT* absorbing the sword *instantly*. Ghost absorbing ability isn't fast at all, it took him time to absorb a giant rasengan that was heading towards him. Unlike Susanoo sword, it's strikes very fast and has a very large amount of momentum behind it. It's more likely Susanoo sword would impale or hack through ghost even whilst  his absorbing shield is in effect.


Sealing jutsus don?t work like that. For example:

The Amateratsu is being sealed inside a normal scroll, yet, nothing happens.


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## Ra (Mar 29, 2010)

> It took him two panels to absorb a giant Rasengan. And the Rasengan stopped being deadly when he was absorbing it.



2 panels is too long to consider hungry ghost absorbing abilities "fast."



> You know something? Susanoo isn't faster than the FRS, which covered an enter mountain range in the blank of an eye, yet it was absorbed. Speed is not an issue. If it touches him while the barrier is active, then the attack stops and it's sucked up.



The particular rasenshuriken Ghost absorb didn't move "In the blink of an eye fast."

Additionally, susanoo strikes are completely faster than FRS. It was fast enough to not give orochimaru a chance to react, which tell a lot about it's speed. As I established before ghost absorbing ability isn't instantaneous. If a big gigantic sword, which is filled with strength + speed + momentum in it's swing comes down on Ghost, whose absorbing shield is like this , he is not absorbing fast to the point where the sword will not make it too him.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Also worth noting that when the shield is out, when the attack hits it, all of it is absorbed


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## ZE (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> 2 panels is too long to consider hungry ghost absorbing abilities "fast."



Two panels is slow? 
Raikage took three to dodge amateratsu, is he slow?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> If Susanoo strikes, HG is there, with its shield...and then the entirety of Susanoo is sucked up. Remember. DEFENSIVE Jutsu. Susanoo only repels attacks.



So you're saying Preta can move faster than Susano'o? Or that Itachi will hit him even with full knowledge? And intuitively changing nature alterations doesn't make it chakra. If anything, that means the shield _isn't_ chakra. Finally, if Preta uses his jutsu offensively, it becomes an offensive jutsu, and is stated to be repelled by the shield.



ZE said:


> If that was the case, Sasuke wouldn’t have had the time to make a substitution jutsu. We don’t know how much time passed since he was being burned by the flames. The black flames are the black flames; they aren’t more or less powerful depending on the user, that was never stated.



Jutsus always correlate with skill. Itachi used his jutsu better than Sasuke did after first attaining his brother's techniques. It makes sense considering that Itachi had them for a nearly a decade. How can you say Itachi's Amaterasu burns at a slow rate when Itachi burned through a fireproof wall while at a full sprint from Jiraiya's stomach chasing him and Kisame?


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> 2 panels is too long to consider hungry ghost absorbing abilities "fast."


Panel time =/= chronological time. We're merely shown it absorbed and that's before Jiraiya can even react. Same goes for Naruto's FRS



> The particular rasenshuriken Ghost absorb didn't move "In the blink of an eye fast."


Yes, it did. 
It crossed the entire range of Chibaku Tensei in that space of time. 



> Additionally, susanoo strikes are completely faster than FRS. It was fast enough to not give orochimaru a chance to react, which tell a lot about it's speed.


You kind of forget a few important details:
1. They've demonstrated faster speed than Susanoo with the mountain crossing and all
2. Orochimaru wasn't even trying to dodge. He even shrugged it off as a 'little cut' initially



> As I established before  ghost absorbing ability isn't instantaneous. If a big gigantic sword, which is filled with strength + speed + momentum in it's swing comes down on Ghost, whose absorbing shield is like this , Ghost is not absorbing fast to the point where the sword will not make it too him.



Oh, how ridiculous. HG's barrier can cover it completely if it wants it to. Not only that, *when the attack touches it, it's sucked up completely.*
Want the databook entry? The speed and power of the attack don't matter. Otherwise, FRS and Chou Oodama Rasengan would kill it.
 In fact, with the COR, it GRABBED IT first and then absorbed it. FRS, it jumped in front. The second Susanoo touches the barrier, it's sucked up. Unless you're trying to say Jiraiya's Chou Oodama Rasengan doesn't have strength or speed or momentum.

So,  you've just shown you don't actually understand the technique you're trying to argue against andd as usual per this board, are hyping up Susanoo. Tell me, why exactly, Kishimoto wrote HG could absorb *all techniques* in the databook? And why you're ignoring that when attacks touch the barrier, they cease to matter and are drained anyways


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## Ra (Mar 29, 2010)

> Two panels is slow?
> Raikage took three to dodge amateratsu, is he slow?





Hungry absorbing Giant Rasengan was *slow*.

Raikage dodged amaterasu in one panel. The other panel has shown amaterasu manifesting on Raikage, and he reacted the next panel with his speed.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> Hungry absorbing Giant Rasengan was *slow*.
> 
> Raikage dodged amaterasu in one panel. The other panel has shown amaterasu manifesting on Raikage, and he reacted the next panel with his speed.



What part of panel time =/= chronology wasn't clear? It took a few panels for Itachi to get to Kurenai and kick her, is Itachi slow? It took three panels between the Raikage charging Sasuke from behind and the Raikage hititng him, is the Raikage slow?

It took a few panels for Itachi's Amaterasu to hit Sasuke. It took a few for Sasuke's to hit Bee.

Notice HG absorbed the entire thing before *Jiraiya, who is far faste than his normal 4.5 in speed here* was even able to react.

So yeah, spare us. And slow or not, it doesn't matter. When the barrier is up, the attack that touches it, is absorbed anything. Nothing says "Oh, fast attacks can break through"


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't think it was slow, but I agree that it took a few moments at least. You can see Preta's body move around in the second panel meaning it's far from instant. Jiraiya did react, you can see the exclamation mark, but given his statement he didn't think Hungry Ghost could absorb "the whole thing."


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm sure you agree with anything that'll downplay Pain and hype up Itachi at this point


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Forgive me for not believing the absorption was instant or that Preta can move faster than Itachi can react to or Amaterasu in close range.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Honestly? Demon Realm's laser could be said to be stronger than Kirin, which blew through the instant Susanoo





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More like Pain in a curbstomp. There's absolutely nothing Itachi and Kisame can do to beat the Six Paths of Pain.





Inu said:


> -or he could just bansho tennin the brothers eyes out of their eye sockets, then torture them to death.





			
				Soloman said:
			
		

> So not even a fusion of Sasuke, Itachi, and Orochimaru with full knowledge and hugely advantageous circumstances [Kirin prepared, Full Knowledge] can defeat Pain when Nagato said Jiraiya could have beaten him with far fewer advantages?



He more likely meant Pain was overrated because of this type of stuff.


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## Ra (Mar 29, 2010)

> Yes, it did.
> It crossed the entire range of Chibaku Tensei in that space of time.



Yeah it was so "Faster than a blind of an eye" fast that hungry ghost can react and jump in front of deva and save him from rasenshuriken.



> You kind of forget a few important details:
> 1. They've demonstrated faster speed than Susanoo with the mountain crossing and all
> 2. Orochimaru wasn't even trying to dodge. He even shrugged it off as a 'little cut' initially



1. I want the chapter this happened.
2. The sword reached orochimaru before he could react. Whether he wanted to dodge or not didn't matter, simply because it was faster than his ability to notice.



> Oh, how ridiculous. HG's barrier can cover it completely if it wants it to. Not only that, when the attack touches it, it's sucked up completely.
> Want the databook entry? The speed and power of the attack don't matter. Otherwise, FRS and Chou Oodama Rasengan would kill it.
> In fact, with the COR, it GRABBED IT first and then absorbed it. FRS, it jumped in front. The second Susanoo touches the barrier, it's sucked up. Unless you're trying to say Jiraiya's Chou Oodama Rasengan doesn't have strength or speed or momentum.



Chou Doma rasengan lacks the speed.

Nothing even suggest HG absorption ability is instantaneous. If susanoo sword is coming down with speed + size, it takes an instantaneous amount of absorbing speed to counter it, otherwise it pierces the barrier. Hungry Ghost barrier isn't slowing down susanoo strike to absorb it. 

Jiraiya's giant rasengan is not as fast as susanoo strike. Last time I check Ghost  the rasengan and then proceed to absorb it. Which makes arguments such as rasengan being faster than susanoo strike ridiculous.



> So, you've just shown you don't actually understand the technique you're trying to argue against andd as usual per this board, are hyping up Susanoo. Tell me, why exactly, Kishimoto wrote HG could absorb all techniques in the databook? And why you're ignoring that when attacks touch the barrier, they cease to matter and are drained anyways



Kishimoto also said susanoo is invincible, but we all know once the required circumstances has been met the invincibility is no longer there.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> Yeah it was so "Faster than a blind of an eye" fast that hungry ghost can react and jump in front of deva and save him from rasenshuriken.


Can't possibly be Pain is fast, right?



> 1. I want the chapter this happened.



On the top left panel here:

we can see that Naruto is throwing the FRS just from just outside the Chibaku Tensei debris. Now, the bottom right panel on this page:

shows us two very important things. One, that the FRS seems to have traveled the entire length of the debris pile, if not a little beyond it (for purposes of this calc, we'll say it just reached the end). And two, that this happened in a time-frame of one second.


> 2. The sword reached orochimaru before he could react. Whether he wanted to dodge or not didn't matter, simply because it was faster than his ability to notice.


Orochimaru hysterically screaming at Itachi, not even paying attention-or caring about- the sword, while he was still immobile inside a snake's mouth = great speed feat, righto.





> Chou Doma rasengan lacks the speed.
> 
> Nothing even suggest HG absorption ability is instantaneous. If susanoo sword is coming down with speed + size, it takes an instantaneous amount of absorbing speed to counter it, otherwise it pierces the barrier. Hungry Ghost barrier isn't slowing down susanoo strike to absorb it.


So you just called Sage Mode Jiraiya slow. Given he was striking down at HG.
And the FRS didn't slow. When it hits the barrier, it's absorbed. Period.



> Jiraiya's giant rasengan is not as fast as susanoo strike. Last time I check Ghost  the rasengan and then proceed to absorb it. Which makes arguments such as rasengan being faster than susanoo strike ridiculous.[/Quote
> It raised its hands and grabbed it before it was absorbed, which kinda hurts your argument a lot.
> And Jiraiya is a 4.5 in speed before Sage Mode. Sage Mode amplifies his speed and strength a LOT. The Chou Oodama Rasengan is said in databook to be able to destroy a mountain with a hit.
> Susanoo has not demonstrated that power
> ...


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## ZE (Mar 29, 2010)

Ra said:


> Hungry absorbing Giant Rasengan was *slow*.
> 
> Raikage dodged amaterasu in one panel. The other panel has shown amaterasu manifesting on Raikage, and he reacted the next panel with his speed.



Fat Pain absorbed the rasengan before Jiraiya could touch the ground. Unless Jiraiya can fly, it happened in a single moment. When Jiraiya is attacked by Human Pain, he is exactly in the same position he was when Fat Pain absorbed the rasengan. Show me proof that Jiraiya can fly and I’ll admit you have a point.



Soloman said:


> Jutsus always correlate with skill. Itachi used his jutsu better than Sasuke did after first attaining his brother's techniques.



When it comes to amateratsu the only comparison we have between Itachi and Sasuke puts Sasuke ahead of his brother. 



Soloman said:


> It makes sense considering that Itachi had them for a nearly a decade. How can you say Itachi's Amaterasu burns at a slow rate when Itachi burned through a fireproof wall while at a full sprint from Jiraiya's stomach chasing him and Kisame?


I was referring to the flames being there for Jiraiya to absorb without completely consuming the frog’s stomach. Or the trees in the forest not being destroyed even after all the time that passed since they were being burned by amateratsu. When Oro’s substitution snake jutsu is used, the replica left behind disappears on its own. So, we can’t be sure that was Itachi’s flames doing.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Those are each aftermath effects, not the initial burst IMO. But I agree that it is certainly up to individual opinion although I feel Itachi's flames have certainly shown to be more powerful than Sasuke's albeit he demonstrated less control.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Still, Itachi's clones can sustain damage without dispersing and can use the original's techniques. You're just picking and choosing variations now to fit what you want to be possible and impossible without any solid evidence that such a maneuver fails to fall within the realm of reason.



not really. youre the one changing from KBs to crow bunshins. which are quite different. crow bunshins have less chakra then KBs thus may not have the chakra needed to cast a MS jutsu. nor has the feat been shown. so its more likely that they cant. if you want ot talk about KBs then theres no KB feat to suggest that they can inflict some damage through MS and stay active. meaning that as soon as MS is used they will be dissappear or they will try and it just fails and they dissappear. 

dude youve been changing your argument every few posts. is that not desperation?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> not really. youre the one changing from KBs to crow bunshins. which are quite different. crow bunshins have less chakra then KBs thus may not have the chakra needed to cast a MS jutsu.



Crow bunshins have been shown to use doujutsu. Crow bunshin don't disperse when they take damage. There's no reason that they're unable to use eye techniques. Now you're theorizing that they lack the chakra to use the Mangekyō Sharingan when that is unsupported as they have only ever been stated to be more chakra efficient to create and this thread entails a healthy Itachi.

You have nothing backing your opinion being sovereign. Is that not a sign of you being a fanboy who says what is and isn't possible without any trace of contradictory evidence? In the library, *the vast majority of posts* on the discussion thread of a clone using the Mangekyō Sharingan agrees that it is possible. -snip-


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## David (Mar 29, 2010)

Bandwagon propaganda is trustworthy then, I take it?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

If you don't care about facts then you care about opinions after all... I have provided clear evidence just as I did in that thread and presented both arguments. The majority agreed it was a possibility. Do you not, Outer Path?


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## David (Mar 29, 2010)

> In the library, the vast majority of posts on the discussion thread of a clone using the Mangekyō Sharingan agrees that it is possible.



I have no clue, I just skimmed through the last couple posts of this thread.

The logic in the above quote was the key thing I disagreed with .


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Crow bunshins have been shown to use doujutsu. Crow bunshin don't disperse when they take damage. There's no reason that they're unable to use eye techniques. Now you're theorizing that they lack the chakra to use the Mangekyō Sharingan when that is unsupported as they have only ever been stated to be more chakra efficient to create and this thread entails a healthy Itachi.
> 
> You have nothing backing your opinion being sovereign. Is that not a sign of you being a fanboy who says what is and isn't possible without any trace of contradictory evidence? In the library, *the vast majority of posts* on the discussion thread of a clone using the Mangekyō Sharingan agrees that it is possible. _So, Sanji, stop being a condescending fanboy._


so could shouten. they have been shown to use MS? please dont play the fallacy game with me. 

yes they do.



hmm could you call it theorizing? itachi couldnt use MS with 30% chakra. meaning that a crow bunshin uses less chakra which means it has less chakra available to it enough that its substantial enough for the DB to mention it. so the number could be anywhere from 1%-49%. considering 30% or less cant use MS then logically its 3/5 odds (roughly) that crow bunshin would even have the chakra to cast a MS jutsu. combined that with the nonexistant feats of itachi using a bunshin to cast MS its both OOC and improbable. healthy itachi has never been shown in the manga so merely an itachi that isnt dying is the only thing that can be concluded.

appeal to popularity fallacy. and red herring. counterproductive


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Who's changing their argument now? I've never mentioned the Shouten Clone. The thread is in the library. I don't care about _your opinion_; I'm merely telling you that yours isn't absolute or by any means widespread so stop speaking to me like you're in the right. You aren't on any level whatsoever.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Who's changing their argument now? I've never mentioned the Shouten Clone. The thread is in the library. I don't care about your opinion; I'm merely telling you that yours isn't absolute.


you need to understand the definition of the word change before using it in a sentence. please dont use another red herring either. thank you

edit: and type out the entire post before posting. dont just post then eidt 12 times. that makes no sense. and if less chakra is used to create it then somehow it produces its own chakra to make up for that deficit? scans of this fanfic please

edit: which in no way validates your argument. thus still a fallacy and has no bearing.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

-snip- And you're not understanding English. It takes less chakra to *form*. It's in the verb. The action. It doesn't mention the product. A Kage Bunshin is an even split of chakra, but it takes some amount of chakra to use the technique. That initial chakra used is what _Karasu Bunshin_ downsizes on.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> -snip-



theres a few things that you have to know before you continue.

A. no one criticized your wording. you merely dont know the definition of the word change. if i altered my arguement and abandoned the originial for a new one then yes it would be a change. but no the originial was still there and i added a very brief 3 word phrase that you focused on which was a complete red herring.

B. using another red herring by attempting to criticize me and not addressing any arguments shows your lack of an argument already.

C. this isnt english or some other grammatical forum. if you can obviously understand what is written then the point has been gotten across no matter how it is conveyed.

D. use of flamebait is prohibited. this will be your warning before i inform a mod. 

thanks

Edit: type out whole posts instead of jsut editting 1 post 5 times. thank you. requires less chakra is all it says. rest of your post is fanfic.

thank you


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

It wasn't a flamebait, it was a request. If you're going to criticize diction and syntax in rude way then I would appreciate it if you wrote at the appropriate level befitting such condescension. At least make it believable.



sanji's left eye said:


> (,) which means that the comma is seperating another thought(,) expanding on what was already said. im sorry (,) dude(,) but this is basic grammar.





sanji's left eye said:


> you need to understand the definition of the word change before using it in a sentence.



-snip- Can I has my opinion now? Or do you want to struggle to scrawl some more fallacies?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> It wasn't a flamebait, it was a request. If you're going to criticize diction and syntax in rude way then I would appreciate it if you wrote at the appropriate level befitting such condescension. At least make it believable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-snip-

the 2 things you brought up both pertained to actual arguments. my mistake 1 thing i brought up pertained to an actual argument. against goditachi not accounting for a comma meant the difference between 2 very differnt statements to 2 diff arguments. the 2nd was towards you of course after using a fallacy. sure ill mention vocabulary to help you if you use a fallacy 1st.

your grammar mention was a fallacy as it in no way pertained to the argument at hand. the funny thing is i dont need to struggle. you just keep committing them. your entire posts on this entire idea of cirticising grammar is a giant red herring.

argument still stands as you have been using red herrings to ignroe points consistently. but techncially i won this the moment your fallacies came into play. so im sorry if i was exciting you but it looks like ive finished already.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Thank you for your time although your entire post is off topic. That's a red herring, right? I'm entitled to my opinion, as are you. Please refrain from becoming upset. Perhaps take a break momentarily?

I have merely asked, politely, that you remain courteous and either stop being condescending or to not be a hypocrite while being condescending. I do not feel that is too much to ask for (all things considered.)

Have a lovely day, 

Soloman


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Thank you for your time although your entire post is off topic. That's a red herring, right?


as you brought it up and mine is merely in response to that then no my post isnt as i am not deliberately trying to change the subject.

edit: your edit is another fallacy btw.

thank you for changing you edit to make it less fallacious. however the word hypocrite is like flamebait. i warned you did i not? please dont make me report you.

thanks bro. its been real.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

I would ask that you not respond if you don't have anything on-topic to say. 

"Red herrings" are bad, and everything.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

I appreciate the modification of your posts to make them sound nicer. Keep in mind what a red herring actually is.



sanji's left eye said:


> so could shouten. they have been shown to use MS? please dont play the fallacy game with me.
> 
> yes they do.
> 
> ...





Soloman said:


> *Who's changing their argument now? *I've never mentioned the Shouten Clone. The thread is in the library. I don't care about _your opinion_; I'm merely telling you that yours isn't absolute or by any means widespread so stop speaking to me like you're in the right. You aren't on any level whatsoever.



Initial red herring has been bolded. and everything you elaborated on was fallacy. so no have not commited 1 here. I do sincerely respect the attempt to flip flop things like though. I think it takes a significant amount of intellect to try that


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Is there any way I can apologize so you'll drop these perceived fallacies? It's getting pretty dull. I have presented the evidence to convince the majority that it's a possibility. It's a matter of opinion. If you would like to argue that point, there is a thread in the library.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Is there any way I can apologize so you'll drop these fallacies? It's getting pretty dull. I have presented the evidence to convince the majority that it's a possibility. It's a matter of opinion. I accept your opinion, however, please stop acting as if your way is the only way - that's a dogma.
> 
> If you would like to argue that point, there is a thread in the library.


sure. just apologize for commiting the the red herrings/appeal to popularity. did i say my way is the only possibility? merely there is more evidence from what i presented.

perhaps. i may eat something 1st.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Perhaps you should argue your point in the appropriate thread. I am refraining from correcting you on your understanding of fallacies for the time being. Please don't make me correct you.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Perhaps you should argue your point in the appropriate thread. I am refraining from correcting you on your understanding of fallacies for the time being. Please don't make me correct you.


so presumably you wont be apologizing even though you asked if you could? not wanting to is fine but dont ask if you can then go back on those words. it makes no difference whether you try to present your reasoning or not. i dont think my eyes will pop out form noting your reasoning. anyway as you have acknowledge this is off topic. if you want to post i suggest posting the link or something.

i.e. ive finished with the off topicness/fallacies of this thread


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## Aoshi (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't understand why people support Itachi on this one...

Pain is just a better ninja, with Genjutsu, Taijutsu, and Ninjutsu defense. Pain goes for Chibaku Tensei, and Itachi dies... Not that hard to comprehend...


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

keep in mind there is the Chou shinra tensei cool down to consider


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

After 18 pgs Pein still takes this one,
I guess you could say 
"Pein is Immune to Itachi"
Also 


All of Itachi's techniques don't work against Pein
Amaterasu can get sealed 


The rest of the Peins stab Itachi while he cries blood 

Susan can get Sealed as well.
Pein can absorb *All* Chakra,
Susan is made of chakra so he gets absorved as well
Its actually pretty easy to understand.
Susan is not an exception he gets sealed
why would he be an exception?
He gets sealed sword an all

The MG sharingan doesn't work on Pein.
It has already been explained.
Pein closes his eyes fights normally
kinda like how human realm fought with Jiraiya while blinded.

to win Pein absorbs susan
[/SPOILER][/IMG]

Uses hellhound


spams more summons


Deva is charged 
then



Then this happens



Itachi will be crushed


Just like everyone that opposes him....


Itachi has no chance against Pein
Pein is just too strong, he cant be beat.
Pain has perfect counters for all of Itachi’s jutsus 
-jutsu absorption, 
-Six bodies to counter genjutsu
-Close to unlimited chakra
-resurrection
-Hellhound + spam summons
-Rocket launcher + lasers!!!


The only way Itachi takes this one is if he-
survives the Summon spam of Animal Realm or is uninjured (impossible)
Avoids contact with Human realm (impossible)
engages and wins in taijutsu against 6 bodies with rinnegan (impossible)
Prevents Preta path from absorbing any of his jutsus and chakra (impossible)
Survives Shinra Tensei (impossible)
Is inbulnerable to Rockets and Lasers (impossible)
Gets enough chakra to cast 6 Tsukyomi at once (Very impossible)
becomes the main character of the show (Impossible)

Do we all now agree that Pein Wins?
sigh


----------



## Goobtachi (Mar 29, 2010)

All what you said holds no relevance since you didn't even come up with good points:

Itachi will most likely discover HGR's abilities at the beginning of the fight, then how can you say that his ama will be absorbed??he isn't that stupid...

As for susano'o, it won't get absorbed since the items aren't made of chakra, it has a strong fuuinjutsu that can seal everyone(thing)...
And every body that he seals won't be revived, since it's not dead


As for Pain not losing a battle, well..if you read the manga, you'll probably have noticed that he lost to naruto


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

^ Itachi *knows* Preta's abilities. He doesn't even have to figure it out.


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh, God, can that misconception just END?

The items are made of chakra. They're part of Susanoo, stated in the databook, made of chakra. Yata's Mirror changes its chakra composition depending on what's attacking it. What does that say?


----------



## Goobtachi (Mar 29, 2010)

And why is this even discussed...Itachi rapes, he knows he has to separate the bodies(jiraiya did it, so can itachi) and then proceeds to rapestomp...any ama shot or suano'o slash and the pain body won't be revived....so hell realm is useless here...



Lightysnake said:


> Oh, God, can that misconception just END?
> 
> The items are made of chakra. They're part of Susanoo, stated in the databook, made of chakra. Yata's Mirror changes its chakra composition depending on what's attacking it. What does that say?



Part of susano'o? sasuke doesn't have those items 

I'd like to see where it does state that the mirror changes its *chakra* composition...

Not that it matters anyway, since itachi won't use this on HGR....


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

Sharingan is useless because Pein has Rinnegan + he is also six bodies




godtachi said:


> All what you said holds no relevance since you didn't even come up with good points:



Im pretty sure I did brah



> Itachi will most likely discover HGR's abilities at the beginning of the fight, then how can you say that his ama will be absorbed??he isn't that stupid...



Itachi has full knowledge
It doesn't help him tough
He just knows that nothing he has will work against pein
That is all.



> As for susano'o, it won't get absorbed since the items aren't made of chakra, it has a strong fuuinjutsu that can seal everyone(thing)...



Susan is made of chakra
It gets absorbed sword an all
Orn he gets absorved and the items fall into the floor?? ^::^



> And every body that he seals won't be revived, since it's not dead



No bodies will get sealed
There will be no more susan to do a sealing



> As for Pain not losing a battle, well..if you read the manga, you'll probably have noticed that he lost to naruto



Meh
Pein had naruto down a couple of times
he could have killed him anytime he wanted
Xcept for the...
U know...
Plot!
sigh


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Part of susano'o? sasuke doesn't have those items
> 
> I'd like to see where it does state that the mirror changes its *chakra* composition...
> 
> Not that it matters anyway, since itachi won't use this on HGR....



It might vary from Susanoo to Susanoo. We never saw his arrows land a real hit on anyone, and the shield it was blocking with remembled Yata's mirrow very much

The databook says this when talking about just the general Susanoo

*
There is a reason "Susanoo" boasts absolute perfection in both offence and defence~~ That reason is the "Sacred Treasures*" he holds in both hands.*


And Yata's Mirror:
*
The Yata Mirror
[picture of Susanoo holding up the Yata Mirror]
→The incorporeal shield of the "Sacred Treasures". Endowed with all "nature transformations," it can change its own characteristics depending on the characteristics of the attack it receives, making the technique ineffective.*

Nature alterations means nature chakra


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## Goobtachi (Mar 29, 2010)

how will susano'o be sealed when it doesn't even attack HGR???


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Well, for starters, HG is really, really fast, as are all the bodies...


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

godtachi said:


> how will susano'o be sealed when it doesn't even attack HGR???




lol really?
PP just rushes at him and sucks him in brah


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## Goobtachi (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It might vary from Susanoo to Susanoo. We never saw his arrows land a real hit on anyone, and the shield it was blocking with remembled Yata's mirrow very much
> 
> The databook says this when talking about just the general Susanoo
> 
> ...



No, just no...



as for your OMG HGR is so damn fast, well.he's probably fast for a pain body, but in front of a speed beast like itachi, it's nothing special


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Itachi has no chance against Pein
> Pein is just too strong, he cant be beat.



Your opinion. Ultimately, even Pain fails before the Rikudou Sennin, and if you want to take the comparison past the boundaries of Naruto, like 50% of the rest of fiction.



> Pain has perfect counters for all of Itachi?s jutsus
> -jutsu absorption,
> -Six bodies to counter genjutsu
> -Close to unlimited chakra
> ...



Itachi has perfect counters for Pain as well: Tsukuyomi and Susano'o with the spiritual items equipped. And in this match, he even has knowledge on half of Pain's bodies.



> The only way Itachi takes this one is if he-
> survives the Summon spam of Animal Realm or is uninjured (impossible)



Jiraiya did it just fine, as did Naruto. It's not impossible at all. In fact, if Itachi ignores the summons and attacks the summoner directly, he has a good chance of stopping the summon spam before it gets out of control. And as we've seen, Pain's summons disperse when the summoner is defeated, so this is the best course of action for him to take.



> Avoids contact with Human realm (impossible)



Not really, Jiraiya and Naruto both did that just fine.



> engages and wins in taijutsu against 6 bodies with rinnegan (impossible)



Not impossible, just extremely unlikely; I can see maybe if Tite Kubo was writing the manga ( :ho ) and the environment they fought in could be used against Pain, Itachi might win a Taijutsu brawl through massive plot shielding and authorial trolling.



> Prevents Preta path from absorbing any of his jutsus and chakra (impossible)



He has knowledge of Gakidou in this match, so actually, this is potentially very easy for him to do. Just hit it with Tsukuyomi when it comes in to absorb something.



> Survives Shinra Tensei (impossible)



Kakashi did it twice.



> Is inbulnerable to Rockets and Lasers (impossible)



Dodging works too. Susano'o can protect him from the laser.



> Gets enough chakra to cast 6 Tsukyomi at once (Very impossible)



Three would be his logical limit, if we assume it has roughly the same cost as his Amaterasu. That potentially takes down Pain's major threats- Gakidou, Tendou, Chikushodou -and leaves only the fodder for Itachi to clean up.



> becomes the main character of the show (Impossible)



Well if I was writing it... 



> Do we all now agree that Pein Wins?
> sigh



Nope. Against canon Itachi there would be a good chance, but this Itachi is tricked-out and has special knowledge on a large portion of Pain's abilities. It's unlikely Pain would be able to win this fight.



sanji's left eye said:


> then you would have to keep in mind that yatas mirror doesnt cover 360 degrees.



The rest of Susano'o does, however. Considering the only one who can get through the regular chakra parts is Gakidou, Itachi only needs to be concerned with keeping it facing him, and eliminate him with Tsukuyomi as quickly as possible so he no longer poses a threat.



> keep in mind all the while he is being pulled in by bansho tenin. being off balanced his aim isnt going to be good. already mentioned this but reiteration is nice. based on what? never knew this fact was established. and considering it hurts every cell in his body thats clearly an inhibitor. doesnt mean they still cant dodge.
> 
> we are still talking about it being bansho tennied into satan btw. so being pulled at such speeds he wont be able to focus.



What will be the point of using Banshou Tenin to send Itachi into Enma's mouth? If he has Susano'o up, he could just pierce it with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and seal it away. And once that's done, it doesn't matter if they manage to dodge him once, twice, or a few times- he will tag them eventually.



> the trailer brought back vague memories.
> 
> reading the manga is fun. he killed his clan thus betrayed his clan. and betrayed madara. thus betrayed akatsuki. he was loyal to the village that was good. but is still a betrayer. and satan isnt gonna eat him. DUH!



Itachi betrayed the bad guys for the greater good. That's rather an act of righteousness.



Cyphon said:


> Hungry absorbs Susanoo and Animal spams summons while the others use the openings. GG Itachi.
> 
> Itachi is strong but Pain is about as perfect a counter as you can get. Itachi's best jutsu are all nearly useless here.



You seem to forget that Itachi has knowledge on several of the Pain bodies in this match, Gakidou included. Ignoring the fact that the Yata no Kagami can nullify all physical, spiritual, and chakra-based attacks, which logically should include Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin, Itachi could still hit it with Tsukuyomi the instant he sees it trying to dick with his barrier.

Without Susano'o stripped away, the summon spam falls victim to what just may be the most brutal act of animal cruelty ever depicted in a Shounen manga. The rest of Pain's bodies follow suit.


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

-snip-



> as for your OMG HGR is so damn fast, well.he's probably fast for a pain body, but in front of a speed beast like itachi, it's nothing special



Pain is also a speed beast, dear. Want some evidence?

Naruto uses the FRS


Then there's here...it's specifically noted he has 5 seconds left


He is then blindsided by two Naruto clones


He knocks them down and dodges FRS in the same motion...the FRS then covers *the entire mountain range* Chibaku Tensei covered.

After it lands on the other side? 
*Only one second has passed since Pain noted he needed five seconds*

Not only was he able to dodge that projectile, HG was able to intercept it from a position nowhere CLOSE when Naruto chucked it at God Realm at the fight's start
At close range.


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Your opinion. Ultimately, even Pain fails before the Rikudou Sennin, and if you want to take the comparison past the boundaries of Naruto, like 50% of the rest of fiction.



Not Opinion
Actually no one beat him straight up.
naruto was just meh....Plot
Naruto was down at least twice.




> Itachi has perfect counters for Pain as well: Tsukuyomi and Susano'o with the spiritual items equipped. And in this match, he even has knowledge on half of Pain's bodies.



Yeah except There is no Susan 
She got absorbed by pein




> Jiraiya did it just fine, as did Naruto.



Not really,
Animal path just decided to stop spaming.
He wouldn't stop this time.....




> It's not impossible at all. In fact, if Itachi ignores the summons and attacks the summoner directly, he has a good chance of stopping the summon spam before it gets out of control. And as we've seen, Pain's summons disperse when the summoner is defeated, so this is the best course of action for him to take.



Animal path summons hellhound then bird
Flies away but not before summoning more beasts
He then leaves all the summons there to fight and hides in a safe distance 
Itachi will have a tough time not noticing 5 paths + A bunch of Summons attacking him no?
This is not Itachi vs animal Path btw...




> He has knowledge of Gakidou in this match, so actually, this is potentially very easy for him to do. Just hit it with Tsukuyomi when it comes in to absorb something.



Very unlikely
Especially since PP will not have his eyes open 




> Dodging works too. Susano'o can protect him from the laser.



Susan got absorved by PP whike he was closing his eyes so MG didnt work




> Three would be his logical limit, if we assume it has roughly the same cost as his Amaterasu. That potentially takes down Pain's major threats- Gakidou, Tendou, Chikushodou -and leaves only the fodder for Itachi to clean up.



Yeah except they will keep their eyes closed while hell path sees for them
And animal path too.




> Nope. Against canon Itachi there would be a good chance, but this Itachi is tricked-out and has special knowledge on a large portion of Pain's abilities. It's unlikely Pain would be able to win this fight



lulz
Pein will always Win against Itachi
Unless you make him a baby with one body
Only way Itachi can win is by handicapping Pein to the max or SuperPowering Itachi.
You know this too.


----------



## Goobtachi (Mar 29, 2010)

Speed=/= reflexes


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Your opinion. Ultimately, even Pain fails before the Rikudou Sennin, and if you want to take the comparison past the boundaries of Naruto, like 50% of the rest of fiction.
> 
> 
> 
> Itachi has perfect counters for Pain as well: Tsukuyomi and Susano'o with the spiritual items equipped. And in this match, he even has knowledge on half of Pain's bodies.


Pain has good knowledge on him as well.
The Susanoo is a poor counter with the speed of the Pains, yanking summons, Hungry Ghost.
Tsukuyomi is worthless on the Pains




> Jiraiya did it just fine, as did Naruto. It's not impossible at all. In fact, if Itachi ignores the summons and attacks the summoner directly, he has a good chance of stopping the summon spam before it gets out of control. And as we've seen, Pain's summons disperse when the summoner is defeated, so this is the best course of action for him to take.


Both of them had help Itachi doesn't have-IE: summons.
ITachi needs to get to the summoner



> Not really, Jiraiya and Naruto both did that just fine.


Itachi has neither their movesets, physical strength or summons




> Not impossible, just extremely unlikely; I can see maybe if Tite Kubo was writing the manga ( :ho ) and the environment they fought in could be used against Pain, Itachi might win a Taijutsu brawl through massive plot shielding and authorial trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> He has knowledge of Gakidou in this match, so actually, this is potentially very easy for him to do. Just hit it with Tsukuyomi when it comes in to absorb something.


Not only does Pain never need to look Itachi in the eye with shared vision, but what'll Tsukuyomi do? The bodies have brains, but Tsukuyomi works in a very specific manner: causing pain and trauma.
The bodies don't feel that. All they are is a group of puppets controlled by a core mind: Nagato's. They do not feel pain or trauma.




> Kakashi did it twice.


One of which was not aimed to kill as Pain was still aiming to interrogate
Pain controls the power output, no more complicated than that. He nearly killed Choza and most of his group with an ST as well...and no, not all of them were Akimichi



> Dodging works too. Susano'o can protect him from the laser.


ITachi's speed in Susanoo is questionable. And the Laser's explosion was stronger than Kirin's. Kirin failed to so much as harm Sasuke and Zetsu who were almost right next to it. 
This is HALF of DR's laser:





> Three would be his logical limit, if we assume it has roughly the same cost as his Amaterasu. That potentially takes down Pain's major threats- Gakidou, Tendou, Chikushodou -and leaves only the fodder for Itachi to clean up.


So, three Tsukuyomis wasted




> Well if I was writing it...
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Against canon Itachi there would be a good chance, but this Itachi is tricked-out and has special knowledge on a large portion of Pain's abilities. It's unlikely Pain would be able to win this fight.


And Pain still beats him. Shame




> The rest of Susano'o does, however. Considering the only one who can get through the regular chakra parts is Gakidou, Itachi only needs to be concerned with keeping it facing him, and eliminate him with Tsukuyomi as quickly as possible so he no longer poses a threat.


Shame that doesn't work. The bodies are not individual beings. You might as well genjutsu Sasori's puppets




> What will be the point of using Banshou Tenin to send Itachi into Enma's mouth? If he has Susano'o up, he could just pierce it with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and seal it away. And once that's done, it doesn't matter if they manage to dodge him once, twice, or a few times- he will tag them eventually.


And while that's happening, HG makes Susanoo go by by




> Itachi betrayed the bad guys for the greater good. That's rather an act of righteousness.


Yeah, hell of a double agent that Itachi.
Tell me, when did he ever do anything to HINDER Akatsuki as opposed to help it gather WMDs and assist in the murder of innocents?




> You seem to forget that Itachi has knowledge on several of the Pain bodies in this match, Gakidou included. Ignoring the fact that the Yata no Kagami can nullify all physical, spiritual, and chakra-based attacks, which logically should include Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin,


Which isn't an attack


> Itachi could still hit it with Tsukuyomi the instant he sees it trying to dick with his barrier.


Which will not work



> Without Susano'o stripped away, the summon spam falls victim to what just may be the most brutal act of animal cruelty ever depicted in a Shounen manga. The rest of Pain's bodies follow suit.


Presumably as they forget their insane speed and all their abilities


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Speed=/= reflexes



Pein has rinnegan
so his reflexes are like....
X600%!!!!!!!!


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Speed=/= reflexes



HG had to physically run and jump to intercept FRS. Sorry, but it's time to pack it in, boyo


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

So how exactly is a jutsuless Ninja going to win against a God with six Bodies and unlimited Jutsu + summons?
Its clear that Susan + amaterasu + his genjutsu are not gonna work against Pein.
And that Pein is too powerfull.
Can we all agree that Pein takes this one now?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> The rest of Susano'o does, however. Considering the only one who can get through the regular chakra parts is Gakidou, Itachi only needs to be concerned with keeping it facing him, and eliminate him with Tsukuyomi as quickly as possible so he no longer poses a threat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he would then have to hope that susano non yatas mirror part can hold up against missles, lasers, massive summons, human realms monstrous strength, ST, that hungry ghost cant go around. tsukiyomi involves doing mental damage to the person. can mental damage be inflicted on a dead body? since its range is only 5 meters it wont reach nagato whereever he is. if it can kill then he jsut gets revived. and can tsukiyomi be used with susano up? 

i was kind of joking. by satan i wasnt thinking about enma. literally evil incarnate.

dont think ends justifies the means or hidden intentions really matter. ask brutus lol.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> After it lands on the other side?
> *Only one second has passed since Pain noted he needed five seconds*
> 
> Not only was he able to dodge that projectile, HG was able to intercept it from a position nowhere CLOSE when Naruto chucked it at God Realm at the fight's start
> At close range.



Manga panels are dynamic. They depict actions that do not necessarily transpire in the same instant. There is absolutely nothing that says Rasen Shuriken impacted across the field of debris as soon as Tendou counted to that next second. All we know for sure is that it impacted some time between the first and third second that Pain counted. Which, assuming the field of debris was about 2km across, which looks about right- but go ahead and speak up if you have a problem with this estimate -puts the speed of Rasen Shuriken anywhere from 2km/s to 1km/s (2km in 2 seconds).

That's between 2,237mph (roughly Mach 3) and 4,474mph (roughly Mach 6). With this calc, which I believe is appropriately conservative, Rasen Shuriken ranges from highly supersonic to just barely hypersonic. Which, at least for me, fits with how I view the speedscaling in Naruto. Pain Tendou's ability to dodge this also puts his speed within that range. I consider guys like Itachi, Kakashi, and Sasuke to be within this range, so it makes sense to me.

You can play around with the numbers all you like, but the time frame is no more than two seconds and no less than one, and there's no way that debris field is any larger than 5km, considering this:





is how Kishi draws 10km.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Manga panels are dynamic. They depict actions that do not necessarily transpire in the same instant. There is absolutely nothing that says Rasen Shuriken impacted across the field of debris as soon as Tendou counted to that next second. All we know for sure is that it impacted some time between the first and third second that Pain counted. Which, assuming the field of debris was about 2km across, which looks about right- but go ahead and speak up if you have a problem with this estimate -puts the speed of Rasen Shuriken anywhere from 2km/s to 1km/s (2km in 2 seconds).
> 
> That's between 2,237mph (roughly Mach 3) and 4,474mph (roughly Mach 6). With this calc, which I believe is appropriately conservative, Rasen Shuriken ranges from highly supersonic to just barely hypersonic. Which, at least for me, fits with how I view the speedscaling in Naruto. Pain Tendou's ability to dodge this also puts his speed within that range. I consider guys like Itachi, Kakashi, and Sasuke to be within this range, so it makes sense to me.
> 
> ...



It's the entire range of the mountain range devoured by the Chibaku Tensei.

And since I knew you'd bring that 'panel time =/= chronological time, *listen up good*


God Realm: Five seconds left...


AFTER he evades and disables the clones, dodges the FRS and it covers the entire mountain range?
"4 seconds left..."



It cleared this entire range in literally less than a second


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## T-Pein™ (Mar 29, 2010)

Really good brah 
but what about all the other stuff Lightysnake and I had to say?
Like Sharingan not working on Pein or Susan being absorbed ect.
Essentially that itachi loses.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> Not Opinion



"Itachi has no chance", "Pain is too strong", "Pain can't be beat."

These are opinions. They are not proven or supported in the manga or by any authoritative source.



> Actually no one beat him straight up.
> naruto was just meh....Plot
> Naruto was down at least twice.



The same was true for Itachi. Doesn't mean they can't be beaten "straight up."



> Yeah except There is no Susan
> She got absorbed by pein



How will Pain Gakidou get past the Yata no Kagami and Itachi's Tsukuyomi? 'Cause otherwise, he won't be absorbing Susano'o.



> Not really,
> Animal path just decided to stop spaming.
> He wouldn't stop this time.....



Pain is not bloodlusted in this fight. Chikushodou will most definitely stop at some point. But even if not, Pain's summons can't do dick to Susano'o. The embarrassing ass-handing the Yamata no Jutsu received cements that.



> Animal path summons hellhound then bird
> Flies away but not before summoning more beasts
> He then leaves all the summons there to fight and hides in a safe distance
> Itachi will have a tough time not noticing 5 paths + A bunch of Summons attacking him no?
> This is not Itachi vs animal Path btw...



That's not only massively OOC, but also, what stops Itachi from sealing them all? If Chikushodou runs away, then...fine. The summons get butchered by Susano'o and Itachi deals with the rest of the Rikudou before hunting down Chikushodou, who will then have no summons to get in his way except for the bird apparently. But that's almost like a bad joke.



> Very unlikely
> Especially since PP will not have his eyes open



That's potentially problematic if Pain actually uses that strategy.

But then, there's nothing wrong with using the Yata no Kagami like a giant fly-swatter, either. 



> Susan got absorved by PP whike he was closing his eyes so MG didnt work



You know even if we assume that happened, Susano'o can be deactivated and reactivated, right?



> Yeah except they will keep their eyes closed while hell path sees for them
> And animal path too.



Then they've reduced their number of vantage points to two, which should make it easier for Itachi to tag them with things like Amaterasu and Susano'o.

Or, he can just hit Jigokudou and Chikushodou with Tsukuyomi, then, since you said their eyes are open; that would stop the summon spam AND prevent any revivals.



> lulz
> Pein will always Win against Itachi
> Unless you make him a baby with one body
> Only way Itachi can win is by handicapping Pein to the max or SuperPowering Itachi.
> You know this too.



Itachi and Pain both proved that they are far above the likes of mere Sannin (namely Orochimaru and Jiraiya) and that even powered-up shinobi like Sasuke and Naruto fighting them with prep and intel can only win if they are handicapped and holding back. So there is plenty of reason to consider them roughly equal.



Lightysnake said:


> Pain has good knowledge on him as well.
> The Susanoo is a poor counter with the speed of the Pains, yanking summons, Hungry Ghost.



Pain's knowledge actually isn't specified in this match. I guess we have to assume he has canon knowledge, but we don't know how much he knew about Itachi canonically...

Itachi is plenty fast himself and has Sharingan, so Pain's "speed" isn't an issue for him. Yata no Kagami counters Gakidou, as well as, potentially, Tsukuyomi. Summons? Susano'o raped the Yamata no Jutsu, what does Pain have that would even...make a difference?



> Tsukuyomi is worthless on the Pains



You are the only one who says this. The fact that the Pains were conscious inside Magen: Gamarinshou and experience the illusory part of it shows that they CAN experience Genjutsu. With this in mind, you still haven't given me reason to believe Tsukuyomi would be ineffectual.



> Both of them had help Itachi doesn't have-IE: summons.
> ITachi needs to get to the summoner



Susano'o trumps any summon we've seen so far. It should do nicely.



> Itachi has neither their movesets, physical strength or summons



He has their speed and his own Sharingan-enhanced reactions, which is all he needs in the context of avoidence; the rest of that stuff is irrelevant as neither Jiraiya nor Naruto really relied on any of it to avoid Ningendou.



> Not only does Pain never need to look Itachi in the eye with shared vision, but what'll Tsukuyomi do? The bodies have brains, but Tsukuyomi works in a very specific manner: causing pain and trauma.
> The bodies don't feel that. All they are is a group of puppets controlled by a core mind: Nagato's. They do not feel pain or trauma.



Tsukuyomi doesn't work by causing pain or emotional trauma. It causes direct mental trauma which should cause the bodies to stop functioning. The fact that they WERE able to experience a Genjutsu proves that they have minds, which presumably act as the core that Nagato controls. Unless you want to argue that Nagato directly controls their muscle movement and all of their bodily functions manually, but then, I'd still have to ask you why Nagato was able to express awareness through the Pain bodies inside of Magen: Gamarinshou, if he just controls their bodies and has no presence in their minds. I would also have to ask you why sustaining trauma from something like Rasengan would prevent Nagato from still utilizing the parts of the bodies that remained undamaged. Which, with the exception of Shuradou who is largely mechanical, was never the case.



> One of which was not aimed to kill as Pain was still aiming to interrogate



Pain asked everyone else just once and then killed them when they refused. That doesn't suggest he was holding back because he wanted to give Kakashi another chance to cooperate. Particularly when he had other methods of interrogating, such as Ningendou's. Kakashi was not someone he needed to get the information from. So I just don't see why he would have any reason to pull his punches or give him any special treatment.



> Pain controls the power output, no more complicated than that. He nearly killed Choza and most of his group with an ST as well...and no, not all of them were Akimichi



But it's a force likened to gravity, so even if we assume he controls the power output to some degree...it is clearly still influenced by the mass of the target. And this still does nothing to address the fact that Kakashi survived it not just once, but _twice_. What reason could Pain possibly have to prolong his confrontation with Kakashi when Kakashi had already said no, and when countless others before Kakashi had already met their fate for denying Pain even _once?_



> ITachi's speed in Susanoo is questionable.



Not in this match. It's specified that it doesn't hinder him at all and that he can move freely just as if he didn't have it activated.



> And the Laser's explosion was stronger than Kirin's. Kirin failed to so much as harm Sasuke and Zetsu who were almost right next to it.
> This is HALF of DR's laser:



Kirin is much larger/more powerful:





You can see here how big the Uchiha Hideout is. It almost reaches up to the level of the storm clouds above it. It's even bigger than the surrounding mountains. Kirin completely obliterates it.

Sasuke didn't get hurt because he was above the attack. Zetsu simply wasn't aimed at and still had to shield himself with his...erhm...whatever the hell those aloe vera things are.



> So, three Tsukuyomis wasted



Only you say so.



> And Pain still beats him. Shame



Purely your opinion, the mere expression of which does absolutely nothing in the way of substantiating any such claims.



> Shame that doesn't work. The bodies are not individual beings. You might as well genjutsu Sasori's puppets



Sasori's puppets do not have active minds, either autonomously or through Sasori's control. His manipulation of them extends only as far as their bodies. But Pain's bodies are characteristically different from Sasori's puppets in a number of ways. For example, they still bleed.



> And while that's happening, HG makes Susanoo go by by



Not as long as Itachi has the Yata no Kagami.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

> Yeah, hell of a double agent that Itachi.
> Tell me, when did he ever do anything to HINDER Akatsuki as opposed to help it gather WMDs and assist in the murder of innocents?



Not capturing Naruto, for one. Keeping Madara from sending Pain in to jailrape Konoha as long as he remained alive, for another. He also did give some of his power to Naruto, which should later fuck up Madara's plans quite nicely, and even attempted a last-ditch effort to assassinate Madara himself with his Amaterasu trap. Considering he did all of this while still remaining a card-carrying member of the organization is quite impressive all things considered.



> Which isn't an attack



Not in its intended nature, but in this specific application it is. It's being used offensively. Grab a dictionary sometime, look up the meaning of the word "attack." You can still...smack someone with a shield...just as you can block with a sword. The way something is designed to function and the way it is actually used are not necessarily the same thing. You could use a coffee mug as a paper weight and it would work just fine. So there's no incompatible characteristic Fuujutsu Kyuuin has that prevents it from being nullified.



> Which will not work



You can say it 'til you're blue in the face, but you've still yet to truly back it up.



> Presumably as they forget their insane speed and all their abilities



Before Susano'o's efficacy, such things are meaningless. 



sanji's left eye said:


> he would then have to hope that susano non yatas mirror part can hold up against missles, lasers, massive summons, human realms monstrous strength, ST, that hungry ghost cant go around.



Considering the ribcage alone evidently tanked Kirin, he's probably safe.



> tsukiyomi involves doing mental damage to the person. can mental damage be inflicted on a dead body? since its range is only 5 meters it wont reach nagato whereever he is.



Dead bodies aren't supposed to be able to experience a Genjutsu at all, but Pain's bodies did.



> if it can kill then he jsut gets revived.



Even if the revival succeeds once, that immediately exposes Jigokudou's ability and makes him a target.



> and can tsukiyomi be used with susano up?



In the manga, logically, yes. In this thread, we're told to assume it can.



> i was kind of joking. by satan i wasnt thinking about enma. literally evil incarnate.
> 
> dont think ends justifies the means or hidden intentions really matter. ask brutus lol.



Brutus can suck my cock.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's the entire range of the mountain range devoured by the Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> And since I knew you'd bring that 'panel time =/= chronological time, *listen up good*
> 
> ...



We don't know when exactly it impacted with respect to the 4-countdown. It could've been slightly before, at exactly the same instant, or shortly thereafter. All we really know *for sure* is that it impacted after 5 and before 3.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

> Pain's knowledge actually isn't specified in this match. I guess we have to assume he has canon knowledge, but we don't know how much he knew about Itachi canonically...


Reading the tablet with all the MS's secrets on it? Check. Access to Madara? Check. Tests his men and researches before they join? Check



> Itachi is plenty fast himself and has Sharingan, so Pain's "speed" isn't an issue for him. Yata no Kagami counters Gakidou, as well as, potentially, Tsukuyomi. Summons? Susano'o raped the Yamata no Jutsu, what does Pain have that would even...make a difference?


You keep whining endlessly that the Yata counters HG with no proof. Sorry, kiddo, but I've shown it's made of chakra and HG 's technique is defensive.
In short? Stop being such a weasel and answer things or you're on ignore



> You are the only one who says this. The fact that the Pains were conscious inside Magen: Gamarinshou and experience the illusory part of it shows that they CAN experience Genjutsu. With this in mind, you still haven't given me reason to believe Tsukuyomi would be ineffectual.


How does Tsukuyomi work? We're gonna walk even your little mind through this




> Susano'o trumps any summon we've seen so far. It should do nicely.


Hello, distraction and cerberus



> He has their speed and his own Sharingan-enhanced reactions, which is all he needs in the context of avoidence; the rest of that stuff is irrelevant as neither Jiraiya nor Naruto really relied on any of it to avoid Ningendou.


Yawn. Itachi is not as fast as they are. He has shown nothing in the ballpark of the FRS alone or the dodging or interception of it




> Tsukuyomi doesn't work by causing pain or emotional trauma. It causes direct mental trauma which should cause the bodies to stop functioning. The fact that they WERE able to experience a Genjutsu proves that they have minds, which presumably act as the core that Nagato controls. Unless you want to argue that Nagato directly controls their muscle movement and all of their bodily functions manually, but then, I'd still have to ask you why Nagato was able to express awareness through the Pain bodies inside of Magen: Gamarinshou, if he just controls their bodies and has no presence in their minds. I would also have to ask you why sustaining trauma from something like Rasengan would prevent Nagato from still utilizing the parts of the bodies that remained undamaged. Which, with the exception of Shuradou who is largely mechanical, was never the case.


Yay, we can walk even the densest poster on this board through it!
They have physical brains genjutsu affects. The problem is, as you ignore again because you're a dishonest fanboy, is that according to Jiraiya, Frog Song paralyzes the body *AND* the mind
How can you cause mental trauma to what has no mind of its own?  Nagato is unaffected by the Genjutsu cast, meaning Tsukuyomi is wasted.
Here's what the databook says:
*This torture of the target for what seems like days on end, causing mental trauma that will render them unable to fight for an extensive period of time.*
Since you probably don't understand that, it means that, the TORTURE is what affects them
*The bodies cannot feel pain. It won't work*




> Pain asked everyone else just once and then killed them when they refused. That doesn't suggest he was holding back because he wanted to give Kakashi another chance to cooperate. Particularly when he had other methods of interrogating, such as Ningendou's. Kakashi was not someone he needed to get the information from. So I just don't see why he would have any reason to pull his punches or give him any special treatment.


He still wanted to interrogate Kakashi. You notice he generally had them incapacitated first. Human Realm can't be everywhere at once.
And oh, you don't see? YOU don't see? Well, tough shit. We've had it confirmed in manga God Realm can alter the power of his attacks. We've seen him use much stronger Shinra Tensei attacks and kill or incapacitate other shinobi




> But it's a force likened to gravity, so even if we assume he controls the power output to some degree...it is clearly still influenced by the mass of the target. And this still does nothing to address the fact that Kakashi survived it not just once, but _twice_. What reason could Pain possibly have to prolong his confrontation with Kakashi when Kakashi had already said no, and when countless others before Kakashi had already met their fate for denying Pain even _once?_


Oh, lord, what part of this escapes you? 
Kakashi attacked, Pain blasted him and the Doton wall away and expressed nothing resembling surprise or concern he was fine. We see he interrogated others when he had them incapacitated, and that he respected Kakashi enough to bring in another body.
The idea 'oh, it depends on the target's mass!' is idiocy when we saw others laying around injured or DEAD due to the last ST




> Not in this match. It's specified that it doesn't hinder him at all and that he can move freely just as if he didn't have it activated.


Shame the Pain bodies are faster than he is.
And sorry, but dodging FRS>anything Itachi has shown via speed




> Kirin is much larger/more powerful:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh, fanboyism...
'completely obliterates?' Itachi is lying in more or less the same place with rubble around. Zetsu was literally right there and unharmed. Sasuke would've been affected by the explosion as well. demon realm's laser? One shot's half was taking out a huge assortment of buildings and, what, several city blocks? Half



> Sasuke didn't get hurt because he was above the attack. Zetsu simply wasn't aimed at and still had to shield himself with his...erhm...whatever the hell those aloe vera things are.


Prove those have any defensive properties
Sasuke standing above a giant obliteration wouldn't matter. He'd be affected



> Only you say so.


Cause you fanboy ITachi relentlessly? No.
The bodies have no minds outside of a physical brain. Tsukuyomi, unlike Frog Song, takes place entirely within the mental realm and causes torture in some form to cause mental trauma
Pain has nothing to mentally torture them with and they cannot feel physical pain




> Purely your opinion, the mere expression of which does absolutely nothing in the way of substantiating any such claims.


Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall who only repeats "But Itachi's so cool."




> Sasori's puppets do not have active minds, either autonomously or through Sasori's control. His manipulation of them extends only as far as their bodies. But Pain's bodies are characteristically different from Sasori's puppets in a number of ways. For example, they still bleed.


And the Pain bodies have no consciousness of their own, making tsukuyomi worthless. If they're not dead, Nagato'll just keep them moving




> Not as long as Itachi has the Yata no Kagami.


MAde of chakra, absorbed.

For the last time, so you understand:
1. The items are part of Susanoo itself. Ergo? Chakra
2. The yata No Kagami is stated to possess all nature alterations. Thus? Chakra!
3. Yata's Mirror is only said to defense against, gasp of gasps, ATTACKS. absorption is a purely defensive attack. 

In other words, get over it. If your next post is still you being as much of a blind fanboy, you're on ignore because frankly, no poster here should waste their time with someone like you. You're not smart, you're not funny and you suck at debating


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> We don't know when exactly it impacted with respect to the 4-countdown. It could've been slightly before, at exactly the same instant, or shortly thereafter. All we really know *for sure* is that it impacted after 5 and before 3.



We see it impact and only then does it say 'four seconds left.'

Know when you really need to drop a point? When it makes you look this tragically sad.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Considering the ribcage alone evidently tanked Kirin, he's probably safe.


his cloak was blown and he was left on the ground. some of the blast got through. and i thought it was known that susano got worn down from getting attacked by the kirin.




Nikushimi said:


> Dead bodies aren't supposed to be able to experience a Genjutsu at all, but Pain's bodies did.


im just saying a genjutsu that pralyzes is 1 thing (i think itachi could do that just fine) but due to tsukiyomi has to attack the actual persons mind it shouldnt work on a corpse or transfer to nagato being out of range.




Nikushimi said:


> Even if the revival succeeds once, that immediately exposes Jigokudou's ability and makes him a target.


true but might be necessary.




Nikushimi said:


> In the manga, logically, yes. In this thread, we're told to assume it can.


well sasuke used amaterasu with susano up. and the OP says non MS jutsu.




Nikushimi said:


> Brutus can suck my cock.


he already has


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Not capturing Naruto, for one. Keeping Madara from sending Pain in to jailrape Konoha as long as he remained alive, for another. He also did give some of his power to Naruto, which should later fuck up Madara's plans quite nicely, and even attempted a last-ditch effort to assassinate Madara himself with his Amaterasu trap. Considering he did all of this while still remaining a card-carrying member of the organization is quite impressive all things considered.



Yaaaaaawn
Not capturing Naruto? He tried. He failed
Keeping Pain from Konoha? Madara sent him anyways when Itachi was still alive. Kakuzu and deidara were both assigned the KYuubi first
He also gave Naruto something for...Sasuke alone, not for detriment of Akatsuki
And he completely failed at assassinating Madara and never got off his ass to do with while Madara was alive.
-snip-
And this still means he was Pain's bitch for ten years and never raised a finger against them. -snip-



> Not in its intended nature, but in this specific application it is. It's being used offensively. Grab a dictionary sometime, look up the meaning of the word "attack." You can still...smack someone with a shield...just as you can block with a sword. The way something is designed to function and the way it is actually used are not necessarily the same thing. You could use a coffee mug as a paper weight and it would work just fine. So there's no incompatible characteristic Fuujutsu Kyuuin has that prevents it from being nullified.


Absrobing something isn't an attack. Jutsu applications never change. The FK is a purely defensive jutsu no matter how it's used according to the databook.
So, whoops, sorry.




> You can say it 'til you're blue in the face, but you've still yet to truly back it up.


"Nothing I'll listen to anyways."




> Before Susano'o's efficacy, such things are meaningless.


-snip-



> Considering the ribcage alone evidently tanked Kirin, he's probably safe.


Hah. Prove it.
Oh, wait, NO, you can't. Because Susanoo's always been shown as instant when summoned before and was just slowly reforming...which means:
A. Your precious golden boy failed to fully tank Susanoo considering
B. His robe was vaporized
C. He was coughing up blood
D. He was laying face down while burned.

Sasuke showed the ability to summon his full Susanoo instantly whenever he brought it out. Why is it different from Itachi?



> Dead bodies aren't supposed to be able to experience a Genjutsu at all, but Pain's bodies did.


One stated to paralyze the body as well as the mind




> Even if the revival succeeds once, that immediately exposes Jigokudou's ability and makes him a target.


Hell realm can dodge the FRS. Itachi's shown no speed resembling it


-snip-


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## Doof (Mar 29, 2010)

Itachi likely would not be able to blitz Pain. First of all, you can't blitz six things at once. Even if he managed to hit one body(which isn't a given in the slightest), he'd give the rest of the bodies ample time to defend against or dodge it. But even that's pretty unlikely and completely without proof, as Pain has shown himself quite capable of reading the movements of most things, even things that are quite fast like Rasenshuriken. And blitzing an immobile, legless Orochimaru doesn't really prove he can blitz a guy who was able to fight against Six-Tailed and Sage Naruto, Sage Jiraiya, and Kakashi.

And Tsukuyomi probably wouldn't work either. Toad Confrontation Singing is so deadly because it's based around paralyzing the opponent and stopping their movements. Tsukuyomi is about causing pain in the span of a split second, which doesn't do much to the bodies considering they're all just puppets anyway. They wouldn't care about the fake pain Tsukuyomi causes, they don't have spirits to hurt, and Nagato wouldn't be harmed either, he wasn't effected by the Toad Song at all.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Blocking Technique Absorption Seal* (封術吸印, Fuujutsu Kyuuin)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, *Defensive,* Short range (0-5m)
User: Pain

An *inexhaustible* vortex, absorbing *all* techniques!!

By spinning the chakra flow within one's body in the opposite direction, all of the opponent's techniques aimed at oneself will be absorbed. The absorbed chakra is dispersed within the body. Like a bottomless swamp, the power is swallowed.

[picture of Pain's Preta Realm absorbing Jiraiya's Super-Big Ball Rasengan]
↑*All* techniques are absorbed and made ineffective, regardless of the nature of the chakra.


Susanoo¹ (須佐能乎)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, All ranges
User: Uchiha Itachi

Protecting the user, destroying the enemy!

[picture of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
→↓As the strongest doujutsu, only they can reach it who have taken the "Mangekyou Sharingan," feared by those around it, to its extremes. A godly state. Its the user's guardian deity, but at the same time, it consumes the user's life.
[picture of Itachi surrounded by Susanoo]

Dwelling in the eyes that grasp the truth of Heaven and Earth is a valorous sword-wielding, shield-bearing fierce god!!

The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu²," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi³," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo". *The materialised chakra takes on the form of a war god with a commanding face and powerful physique.* His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes...!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*There is a reason "Susanoo" boasts absolute perfection in both offence and defence~~ That reason is the "Sacred Treasures*" he holds in both hands.* In his right hand is the "Totsuka Sword"** that will strike down any kind of enemy and the shield in his left hand is the "Yata Mirror"*** that will reflect all *attacks.* Whether they be material or spiritual, ninjutsu or physical *attacks,* they all lose their meaning before this god's potency.

[picture of the gourd as the Totsuka Sword appears from it]
↑Sake flows from the gourd, taking on the shape of a sword and transforming into the "Totsuka Sword"! The souls absorbed by the sword are also sealed in there.

In his left and right hands are the unparalleled Sacred Treasures of miraculous efficacy

The Totsuka Sword
[picture of Orochimaru being sealed into the Totsuka Sword]
←It's a type of "Kusanagi Sword*," equipped with the power to throw the person it stabs into a genjutsu world of drunken dreams, sealing them for all eternity. The sword itself carries a "fuuinjutsu".

The Yata Mirror
[picture of Susanoo holding up the Yata Mirror]
→The incorporeal shield of the "Sacred Treasures". *Endowed with all "nature transformations," it can change its own characteristics depending on the characteristics of the attack it receives,* making the technique ineffective.



There we go. The items are part of Susanoo. Ergo, chakra. They only reflect attacks, which FJ is not and Yata's Mirror is endowed with all nature alterations.

Points proven


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 29, 2010)

Im sry senju but show me the scan again and ill better answer your question because to my knowledge the sharingon resist the ms inside the illusion.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@sanji lemme try to clarify it a lil better the distance is 30 ft right? and itachi is said to be bloodlusted and starts in tsasuno and can run while inside tsasuno? now he starts to run towards pein because he is bloodlusted makes a KB along the way and lets it run next to him,Now he has full knowledge and im being open to your idea that preta can absorb tsasuno and im being open to lightys idea that the weapons are made up of chakra as well although i dont agree with them, Now if he has full knowledge on preta my arguement is he can simply attack the realms with the sword of totsuka and let the kb play wait and see if preta attempts to barrier he can send the kb to either cast genjutsu or use taijutsu either way the kb will distract preta long enough for tsasuno to seal the rest of the bodies because of the quickness and size of the sword.Keep in mind the kb is next to him so he can protect the kb with the shield if need be


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 30, 2010)

SO Lightysnake just showed that Itachi's Susan will get absorbed by Preta Path,
Its been showed over and over that Tsukuyomi wont work on Pein
He wont get caught in it anyways.
Itachi will not win
Do you understand what I am saying to you right now? 

@Lelouchprince3
lol do you really think Pein cant do Shadowclones too?
sigh


----------



## Soul (Mar 30, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> They're spiritual items, and chakra is made with spiritual+physical energy.



Proof?



> If Hungry Realm is able to absorb every chakra based attack(and even natural energy), i guess we can assume with certainty that he's able to absorb mere spiritual items.



Mere assumptions, you don't have proof of this.



T-Pein said:


> lol do you really think Pein cant do Shadowclones too?
> sigh



How Nagato learned Kage Bunshin no Jutsu?


----------



## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

The databook says they're part of Susanoo and Yata;s Mirror can change its chakra composition depending on the attack.

At this point, let's have evidence they do not consist of chakra


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## Angoobo (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Proof?


Lulwut??
This has been stated in the first chapters on the manga, don't count on me to go back and search scans...



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Mere assumptions, you don't have proof of this.


It's called logic, sir


TheYellowFlash10 said:


> How Nagato learned Kage Bunshin no Jutsu?


Nagato ' can use every justu'


----------



## Goobtachi (Mar 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Blocking Technique Absorption Seal* (封術吸印, Fuujutsu Kyuuin)
> Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, *Defensive,* Short range (0-5m)
> User: Pain
> 
> ...



Okay, so if you follow the DB, see what i did there..HGR is an enemy, then will be destroyed...
you have absolutely no proof that the items are part of susano'o, since sasuke's doesn't possess them....

Try harder, next time


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## Shiorin (Mar 30, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> lol do you really think Pein cant do Shadowclones too?
> sigh



In the anime, maybe. In the manga, no. Think Bansho Tennin on the same target from opposite directions at the same time. Kishi doesn't want to deal with that.


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## Suu (Mar 30, 2010)

Final warning. I don't want to have to ban people/close this thread, but at this rate I'll be doing both by tomorrow.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Okay, so if you follow the DB, see what i did there..HGR is an enemy, then will be destroyed...
> you have absolutely no proof that the items are part of susano'o, since sasuke's doesn't possess them....
> 
> Try harder, next time



Do you really want to play that game?

The databook says, again, Susanoo itself possesses the items as part of it. As part of the jutsu itself.

And if you want to play that game,the databook says Pain is invincible. The databook loves to hype things up with that kind of language.

Do you even have an argument to this point?


----------



## Goobtachi (Mar 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Do you really want to play that game?
> 
> The databook says, again, Susanoo itself possesses the items as part of it. As part of the jutsu itself.
> 
> ...



Pain is a foe, Susano'o  destroys all the foes....


Anyway, this childlish argument is irrelevant since Itachi isn't stupid enough to use the totsuka sword on HGR...


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

@suu please close this thread ppl are not even addressing each others points any more there just blurting out random statements and not providing any proof, i put out a scenario and rather than acknowledging it ppl just chooses to ignore so it doesn't hinder there arrangement, probably the last time i get involved in any debate that includes  pein


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## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Pain is a foe, Susano'o  destroys all the foes....
> 
> 
> Anyway, this childlish argument is irrelevant since Itachi isn't stupid enough to use the totsuka sword on HGR...



By that logic, you acknowledge Pain is invincible. Please discern between factual statements and hyperbole. 
And what's to prevent HG from intercepting it? He's fast. Damn fast


----------



## T-Pein™ (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> @suu please close this thread ppl are not even addressing each others points any more there just blurting out random statements and not providing any proof, i put out a scenario and rather than acknowledging it ppl just chooses to ignore so it doesn't hinder there arrangement, probably the last time i get involved in any debate that includes  pein



No proof?
lol really?
Your scenario wouldn't work I told you
Pein can do clones as well 
ppl ignore it because its bad fanfiction I think...
And good choice
Pein has never lost a battle







Shiorin said:


> In the anime, maybe. In the manga, no. Think Bansho Tennin on the same target from opposite directions at the same time. Kishi doesn't want to deal with that.



really?
What he can do However is transform a log of wood into an exact replica of him that can fight with Jiraiya and summon monsters too 
The log of wood also gives Jiraiya a very good speach about he being a god...


In the anime you can see his shadowclone 
At 1:39 and 6:19

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zfJ47DXHCo&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]





Pein also has rinnegan

It allows him to master every jutsu in a short time,
Pein mastered all the essential Jutsu from Jiraiya
You really think a ninja at Pein Level does not know how to do Shadowclones?
sigh





godtachi said:


> Okay, so if you follow the DB, see what i did there..HGR is an enemy, then will be destroyed...
> you have absolutely no proof that the items are part of susano'o, since sasuke's doesn't possess them....



He actually does brah
He showed you the txt from the databook
and besides is logic,
Maybe Sasukes Susan hasn't evolved yet
Like Pokemon monsters
when he evolves they will pop out.
Try harder, next time
you have absolutely no proof that the items are not part of susano'o,



godtachi said:


> Anyway, this childlish argument is irrelevant since Itachi isn't stupid enough to use the totsuka sword on HGR...




But pein is smart enough to rush at Susan and absorb him 



godtachi said:


> Pain is a foe, Susano'o  destroys all the foes....



Pein is invincible 
he is a god he has never lost a battle



Pein is a god
As a God what he says, what he thinks becomes the law of god 
But I dont expect you to understand what Pein says and does,
You are just a human afterall



Please dont use hyperbole yeah?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 30, 2010)

Meh, Anime isn't Canon since the makers of it add stuff in to fill in the time because each episode is supposed to last a certain amount of time. For example, in the Anime the second bell test was stretched out to an entire two episodes. In the Manga, it lasted one chapter.

Also, your assuming quite a lot of things. 

Pain does not have Kage Bushin.


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> No proof?
> lol really?
> Your scenario wouldn't work I told you
> Pein can do clones as well
> ...



This post is riddled with assumptions. Pein does not know Kage Bunshins, as they were never seen to be used by him in the manga. What happened in the anime is irrelevant. We only go by the manga here. 

Pein was no more a god than Konan was an angel.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

T-Pein said:


> No proof?
> lol really?
> Your scenario wouldn't work I told you
> Pein can do clones as well
> ...


lolz yeah for someone who is such a pein fanboy you seem to not know that much about him not only is it ooc but also impposible each body has there own ability and thats all they can do. Animal realm can only summon, Deva has control over gravity, Preta can only absorb, ETC Whether nagato himself can do it is up for debate but none of the bodies he controls can make shadow clones


and even in the anime that wasnt a kage bushin it was a replacement technique


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## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

Pain should reasonably know kage bunshin, but there's no evidence he does.
Substitution's another story at least


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Pain should reasonably know kage bunshin, but there's no evidence he does.
> Substitution's another story at least



As i said b4 all the bodies know are the abilities he designed them to know there is no proof what so ever that pein knows kb and its completely ooc so that wasn't a legitimate counter to my statement.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> @sanji lemme try to clarify it a lil better the distance is 30 ft right? and itachi is said to be bloodlusted and starts in tsasuno and can run while inside tsasuno? now he starts to run towards pein because he is bloodlusted makes a KB along the way and lets it run next to him,Now he has full knowledge and im being open to your idea that preta can absorb tsasuno and im being open to lightys idea that the weapons are made up of chakra as well although i dont agree with them, Now if he has full knowledge on preta my arguement is he can simply attack the realms with the sword of totsuka and let the kb play wait and see if preta attempts to barrier he can send the kb to either cast genjutsu or use taijutsu either way the kb will distract preta long enough for tsasuno to seal the rest of the bodies because of the quickness and size of the sword.Keep in mind the kb is next to him so he can protect the kb with the shield if need be


not sure if the weapons are chakra so we can agree there somewhat. the major problem with your scenario is that it relies on hungry ghost getting seperated somehow from the other realms. whose to say that the other bodies dont just go and help hungry ghost? then youre making the assumption that the pain bodies cant dodge itachis susano. its only speed feats are hitting a non moving orochimaru inside of a giant snake that was in the middle of a speech. in short he was blindsided. these bodies will be focusing on itachi and not giving speeches so dodging, using a summon, or blinding with explosions are also possible maneuvers to avoid susano. so overestimation of susanos speed/assumption of hungry ghosts independence are the 2 main problesm with the scenario


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> not sure if the weapons are chakra so we can agree there somewhat. the major problem with your scenario is that it relies on hungry ghost getting seperated somehow from the other realms. whose to say that the other bodies dont just go and help hungry ghost? then youre making the assumption that the pain bodies cant dodge itachis susano. its only speed feats are hitting a non moving orochimaru inside of a giant snake that was in the middle of a speech. in short he was blindsided. these bodies will be focusing on itachi and not giving speeches so dodging, using a summon, or blinding with explosions are also possible maneuvers to avoid susano. so overestimation of susanos speed/assumption of hungry ghosts independence are the 2 main problesm with the scenario



Well lightys theory was preta can absorb the items so i think peins intial move after seeing the size of the sword would be to send preta to absorb everything and keep the other bodies out of harms way. If you dont think the bodies will seperate or that the sword and shield contain chakra then it would be dangerous on peins part to keep the bodies together because this might happen




Now in reguards to tsasuno speed feat all i can say is oro's snakes where never slow and in the manga the snakes on yamata seem to be moving pretty fast and itachi was able to counter perfectly the first snake he cut his head off without even guarding and he guarded against the rest and killed all off them with 1 swipe and in the anime tsasuno also was showned to move pretty fast although i know the anime isnt canon, but something of that size and ill even say moving at a regular speed will be hard to avoid continuously if he swipes across and they all jump up then what?


----------



## Soul (Mar 30, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Lulwut??
> This has been stated in the first chapters on the manga, don't count on me to go back and search scans...



Spiritual items aren't made of chakra; they are _*items*_.
This is as saying that Kunais have chakra.



> It's called logic, sir



Then your logic is quite flawed.



> Nagato ' can use every justu'



False.
The Rinnegan gives you the ability to master them; that doesn't means that he _*can*_ do it.



T-Pein said:


> No proof?
> lol really?
> Your scenario wouldn't work I told you
> Pein can do clones as well



Normal clones? Yes
Kage Bunshins? No.



> What he can do However is transform a log of wood into an exact replica of him that can fight with Jiraiya and summon monsters too
> The log of wood also gives Jiraiya a very good speach about he being a god...



That's Kawarimi no Jutsu.


> In the anime you can see his shadowclone
> At 1:39 and 6:19
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



LOL anime as a proof.
Anime's feats aren't allowed here.



> Pein also has rinnegan



So?



> Pein mastered all the essential Jutsu from Jiraiya



Proof?



> You really think a ninja at Pein Level does not know how to do Shadowclones?
> sigh



He hasn't used them. Ergo, he doesn't has them in the Battledome matches.



> Pein is invincible
> he is a god he has never lost a battle



Then Naruto is above God?

-snip-


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Well lightys theory was preta can absorb the items so i think peins intial move after seeing the size of the sword would be to send preta to absorb everything and keep the other bodies out of harms way. If you dont think the bodies will seperate or that the sword and shield contain chakra then it would be dangerous on peins part to keep the bodies together because this might happen
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this is a strategy assuming both yatas mirror/totsuka incorporate chakra. yet to have seen it so i wont assume as such as they are distinctly called spirtual items.

if you assume that the pain bodies are slower than yamata. feat wise reacting to HM jiraiya, hitting kakashi, reacting to kiba/mom/SM naruto, and reacting to kakashi are all superior speed feats.

a tired KN0 reacted to/blocked 1 of orochimarus snakes during part 1 in the FoD. still no feat to suggest they were any faster than the pain bodies. as you said even using anime makes it unsubstantial.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> this is a strategy assuming both yatas mirror/totsuka incorporate chakra. yet to have seen it so i wont assume as such as they are distinctly called spirtual items.
> 
> if you assume that the pain bodies are slower than yamata. feat wise reacting to HM jiraiya, hitting kakashi, reacting to kiba/mom/SM naruto, and reacting to kakashi are all superior speed feats.
> 
> a tired KN0 reacted to/blocked 1 of orochimarus snakes during part 1 in the FoD. still no feat to suggest they were any faster than the pain bodies. as you said even using anime makes it unsubstantial.



True but you also have to like at the size raito, The sword of totsuka is easily 20 feet long so if there all together and itachi swings straight across it might be to long for them to back up so it limits the options they can use to dodge, if the tsasuno is fast enough to swipe oros snake while its attempting to atk and is about 20 ft long i don't see it having trouble sealing the pein bodies b4 the 3 minute interval is up and itachi has the option to use non ms jutsu makes it even harder for them because he can force certain movements and atk accordingly.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

It has to STAB something to pierce it. When HG starts absorbing something, the whole and entire thing is sucked in



TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Spiritual items aren't made of chakra; they are _*items*_.
> This is as saying that Kunais have chakra.


Are Kunai part of a jutsu? do Kunai change the composition of their chakra to reflect attacks? No?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> True but you also have to like at the size raito, The sword of totsuka is easily 20 feet long so if there all together and itachi swings straight across it might be to long for them to back up so it limits the options they can use to dodge, if the tsasuno is fast enough to swipe oros snake while its attempting to atk and is about 20 ft long i don't see it having trouble sealing the pein bodies b4 the 3 minute interval is up and itachi has the option to use non ms jutsu makes it even harder for them because he can force certain movements and atk accordingly.


depends on what he does. if he uses a vertical slash then dodging will be easy. a stab is the same thing. that aims for the pain bodies mid sections can be ducked under or a short hop will allow them to dodge with ease. they dont have to outrun the length of the sword to dodge it. youre comparison to orochimarus normal snakes shows that the pain bodies can dodge them if PART 1 FoD KN0 can catch it. summons have never really been shown to be especially fast (they may have some speed but not here). youre still making huge assumptions. like the pain bodies merely dodge (which feat wise they probably can) and dont go on the offensive at all.


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## the box (Mar 31, 2010)

Xion said:


> Magical Fairy Itachi (healthy + EMS) would lose regardless.
> 
> This debate is timeless, but it's always the same result. He simply does not have the offensive nor defensive power to win, especially when Pain can chakra suck his two main MS attacks.





Yagura said:


> The Six Paths of Pain is to much for any one man.
> 
> Excluding Rikudo of course.





KumogakureRaikage said:


> Deva Pain and Asura pain alone stand a chance. the other bodies get taken out in a matter of seconds. What Pain needs to avoid is splitting his forces up. Keep ALL BODIES TOGETHER AT ALL TIMES. If he does that he pulls off the win. If any body gets away from the group it's game over for them. Itachi has 1000001 ways of killing a person in less than a second. Hell he took out Kakashi with the utmost ease and matched sasuke when he was sick and dying.




yeah even with the advantage u gave itachi pain still stomps


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## Soul (Mar 31, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Are Kunai part of a jutsu?



Yes. , for example



> do Kunai change the composition of their chakra to reflect attacks? No?



Different weapons, different uses; don't you agree?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 31, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> depends on what he does. if he uses a vertical slash then dodging will be easy. a stab is the same thing. that aims for the pain bodies mid sections can be ducked under or a short hop will allow them to dodge with ease. they dont have to outrun the length of the sword to dodge it. youre comparison to orochimarus normal snakes shows that the pain bodies can dodge them if PART 1 FoD KN0 can catch it. summons have never really been shown to be especially fast (they may have some speed but not here). youre still making huge assumptions. like the pain bodies merely dodge (which feat wise they probably can) and dont go on the offensive at all.



I find it hard to believe pein wont go on the offensive at all considering he has no knowledge of tsasuno and i have to reseach it but i dont know if all the bodies move at the same speed i believe only 1 body was able to react to hm jiraiya and again you have to look at the size of the sword and compare it with how fast he can swing, even if he shorts hop itachi can just swing back at him kinda like swinging from side to side he doesnt have to kill all bodies with 1 swing because 3 mins is plenty of time and he can also cast non ms jutsu to pressure them and force them to move a certain way so i dont see how the bodies will last 3 mins while deva is down and they have no knowledge of tsasuno so im giving this to itachi and im defintley certain pein will attempt to attack tsasuno and that will be his downfall

naruto could dodge the snake   because the snake has to bite him it only has 1 way to attack him but this is a sword we can slash horizantly and verticaly if need be


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## Lightysnake (Mar 31, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Yes. [URL="http://www.onemanga.com




Not what I meant. Are they physically formed out of a chakra construc=


> Different weapons, different uses; don't you agree?



Meaning...? All indication is yes, they are chakra


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2010)

Can't you just qualify your argument? If Itachi's weapons are made out of chakra, he will likely cause quite a bit of damage, but his technique can and will be ultimately countered by Preta Path. If they are not made out of chakra, Itachi has a strong chance of winning as he has a higher chance of holding his absolute defense while being able to cause significant damage very quickly.


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## Sajin Komamura (Mar 31, 2010)

Pein has too many handicaps here so Itachi wins.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 31, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> I find it hard to believe pein wont go on the offensive at all considering he has no knowledge of tsasuno and i have to reseach it but i dont know if all the bodies move at the same speed i believe only 1 body was able to react to hm jiraiya and again you have to look at the size of the sword and compare it with how fast he can swing, even if he shorts hop itachi can just swing back at him kinda like swinging from side to side he doesnt have to kill all bodies with 1 swing because 3 mins is plenty of time and he can also cast non ms jutsu to pressure them and force them to move a certain way so i dont see how the bodies will last 3 mins while deva is down and they have no knowledge of tsasuno so im giving this to itachi and im defintley certain pein will attempt to attack tsasuno and that will be his downfall
> 
> naruto could dodge the snake   because the snake has to bite him it only has 1 way to attack him but this is a sword we can slash horizantly and verticaly if need be


itachis susano hasnt shown such skill with a sword and considering itd be a short hop they would hit the ground a second after they jumped. youre starting to repeat yourself while ignoring arguments. as ive said with missle lasers and summons itachis LoS goes out the window and would allow for smooth counterattacks. then youre discounting the whole preta absorption factor. having no knowledge doesnt mean they wont know to dodge a giant sword.

no naruto blocked the snake and your argument was that fodder snakes are fast to credit susanos speed. part 1 narutos speed<<<<<pains speed. so pain can easily dodge susano by your logic.

your merely stating that susano will connect without presenting any evidence to support it. and ignoring other pains attacks as ive mentioned at least 3 times now.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 31, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Can't you just qualify your argument? If Itachi's weapons are made out of chakra, he will likely cause quite a bit of damage, but his technique can and will be ultimately countered by Preta Path. If they are not made out of chakra, Itachi has a strong chance of winning as he has a higher chance of holding his absolute defense while being able to cause significant damage very quickly.



No, I'm not giving this idiotic notion that Itachi is such an invincible god who hasa a solution for everything ever any more respect than it deserves and you'll have to pardon me because after choking down the nonsense from guys like Nikushimi, I'm sick of it. The strong implication is they are chakra. And even without it, most of Pain's bodies are plan fast enough to dodge if they can use the FRS. Even if they aren't, BIG if, Preta has to just get near Susanoo and touch it....we've seen when he starts absorbing the attack it just freezes up and gets drawn in.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't think defeating a heavily handicapped Pain while Itachi is in unrealistic peak conditions qualifies as _"Itachi being an invincible god who has a solution for everything."_ When you think about it, Naruto made a very serious dent in this handicapped Pain with a handful of clones more or less.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 31, 2010)

Naruto has an entirely different moveset. This isn't DBZ, we don't have set power levels where we compare Itachi's energy blasts being able to overpower Pain's. We have a set of moves, speed and abilities each has and how they stack up.

Heck, a lot of the Kages could be beaten by members of Akatsuki still...Orochimaru'd have a fair shot against some of them and others could kill him. Itachi merely happens to be the least suited opponent for Pain. He cannot speed blitz him given the speed of the bodies, the utter uselessness of Itachi's Genjutsu on beings whose minds are controlled by an outside sources (Frog Song was said to paralyze the body and mind, most genjutsu just targets the mind), Amaterasu and Susanoo are rendered moot by Hungry Ghost and Demon Realm's laser might be able to break through Susanoo anyways.

Naruto also had a host of allies he brought with him. Does Itachi even have any summons? On his very, very low chakra pool can he afford even more than one bunshin?


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## Goobtachi (Mar 31, 2010)

Deva was held back by Base naruto, Deva isn't fast enough to blitz Kakashi who is 4.5 in speed( according to DB)... Pain bodies are not that fast, they are average+...

And there is no way in hell that HGR intercepts an ama thrown at some other body... It's ridiculous....


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## Lightysnake (Mar 31, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Deva was held back by Base naruto, Deva isn't fast enough to blitz Kakashi who is 4.5 in speed( according to DB)... Pain bodies are not that fast, they are average+...
> 
> And there is no way in hell that HGR intercepts an ama thrown at some other body... It's ridiculous....



Hate to tell you this, but all the bodies save one dodged the FRS, which cleared an entire mountain range in under a second.
They're that fast, sorry. 

And 'held back?' No, Naruto briefly stood his ground against them. And when God Realm fought Kakashi, Nagato's attention was divided all across Konoha


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 31, 2010)

well reasonably god realm landed a solid hit on kakashi/avoided a raikiri. 

human realm reacted to HM jiraiyas punch and blocked it.

animal realm reacted HM jiraiyas fastest attack.

hungry ghost realm reacted to SM narutos attack/a surprise attack from both kiba/his mom.

demon realm managed to react to kakashis attack and block kakashi from hitting deva showing his speed.

hell realm kicked too fast that ebisu couldnt react (3.5 tier speed apparently).

i would say pain collectively is pretty damn fast.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Hate to tell you this, but all the bodies save one dodged the FRS, which cleared an entire mountain range in under a second.



Some of those bodies couldn't react to Konohamaru. FRS came from the other direction IMHO.


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## Mist Puppet (Mar 31, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Some of those bodies couldn't react to Konohamaru.



It was only Hell Realm, and he was blindsided IIRC.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 31, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Some of those bodies couldn't react to Konohamaru. FRS came from the other direction IMHO.



Naruto was on the edge of the crater. He chucked it, God Realm dodged, it slams into the other end...then we see 'four seconds left.'

Only Hell Realm was blindsided by Konohamaru and Nagato's attention was divided all over Konoha. Plus, all indication is Konohamaru's a total budding prodigy


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 31, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Some of those bodies couldn't react to Konohamaru. FRS came from the other direction IMHO.



you mean 1 body was blindsided right?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 31, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> itachis susano hasnt shown such skill with a sword and considering itd be a short hop they would hit the ground a second after they jumped. youre starting to repeat yourself while ignoring arguments. as ive said with missle lasers and summons itachis LoS goes out the window and would allow for smooth counterattacks. then youre discounting the whole preta absorption factor. having no knowledge doesnt mean they wont know to dodge a giant sword.
> 
> no naruto blocked the snake and your argument was that fodder snakes are fast to credit susanos speed. part 1 narutos speed<<<<<pains speed. so pain can easily dodge susano by your logic.
> 
> your merely stating that susano will connect without presenting any evidence to support it. and ignoring other pains attacks as ive mentioned at least 3 times now.


Your assuming itachi tsasuno has no sword skills and assuming nagato will be able to time a short  hop well enough in order not to leave himself open again. Now we have no correct speed calc for itachi tsasuno but im going to say imho its not by anymeans slow, sasuke tsasuno was able to catch danzo with its bare hands so i dont see why tsasuno would slow down while holding a sword, and pein attacking or trying to counter attack will be his down fall because without deva he hasnt displayed a attack that can even harm tsasuno without the shield must less with it, so he will simply leave himself open from a pierce with the totsuka sword.

As for oro its hard to say  because we have no speed calc for his snakes on yamata all of his snakes dont move at the same speed i think manda obviously showed us that, although theres no sure way to calc it i will say oro would probably be attacking itachi with one of his fastest and strongest attacks considering how much he feared itachi and knew what he was capable of.


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 31, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Your assuming itachi tsasuno has no sword skills and assuming nagato will be able to time a short  hop well enough in order not to leave himself open again. Now we have no correct speed calc for itachi tsasuno but im going to say imho its not by anymeans slow, sasuke tsasuno was able to catch danzo with its bare hands so i dont see why tsasuno would slow down while holding a sword, and pein attacking or trying to counter attack will be his down fall because without deva he hasnt displayed a attack that can even harm tsasuno without the shield must less with it, so he will simply leave himself open from a pierce with the totsuka sword.
> 
> As for oro its hard to say  because we have no speed calc for his snakes on yamata all of his snakes dont move at the same speed i think manda obviously showed us that, although theres no sure way to calc it i will say oro would probably be attacking itachi with one of his fastest and strongest attacks considering how much he feared itachi and knew what he was capable of.



do you have a feat of itachis susano having any sword skills? the swords attacks have a large amount of momentum. when he slashes he completely followsthrough. doing quick short slashes while quickly changing direction hasnt been displayed thus is fanfic for itachis susano. if anything itachis susano is bulkier and with a sword in hand it would be slower than sasukes. hell if danzou could dodge a faster susano then logically pain bodies who are at least as fast if not faster than danzou then of course they could dodge. lol i think you missed the part in which i said missles/summons agian. this is the 4th time youve ignored it so i dont expect a response again. no one said anything about deva going in by himself

nothing to indicate yamata no jutsu was even really fast. more fanfic.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2010)

So a giant spirit warrior called the Raging God of Battle has no sword skill. Okay.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 31, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> do you have a feat of itachis susano having any sword skills? the swords attacks have a large amount of momentum. when he slashes he completely followsthrough. doing quick short slashes while quickly changing direction hasnt been displayed thus is fanfic for itachis susano. if anything itachis susano is bulkier and with a sword in hand it would be slower than sasukes. hell if danzou could dodge a faster susano then logically pain bodies who are at least as fast if not faster than danzou then of course they could dodge. lol i think you missed the part in which i said missles/summons agian. this is the 4th time youve ignored it so i dont expect a response again. no one said anything about deva going in by himself
> 
> nothing to indicate yamata no jutsu was even really fast. more fanfic.



I responded to the animals i have stated they dont pack enough power to harm itachi while in tsasuno,tsasuno tanked kirin without even guarding with the mirrror of yata, so why would lasers or animals pose a threat? and all of those move they will leave the bodies who use it open to a slash, Now sasuke has the same tsasuno as itachi if you notice b4 he went blind he completed it





That's the same tsasuno itachi used, Now why should we assumed that tsasuno is slower in its completed form? thats makes no sense to me also look.



You see how close they both are? and tsasuno sword wasnt even all the way out when oro snake attempted to atk, yet it was still fast enough to cut it b4 it reached him.


and look at this


All the snakes have been showned to be to move around but tsasuno hit oro b4 he even had a chance to finish his statement or react, So why are we to assume its slow?


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## sanji's left eye (Mar 31, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> I responded to the animals i have stated they dont pack enough power to harm itachi while in tsasuno,tsasuno tanked kirin without even guarding with the mirrror of yata, so why would lasers or animals pose a threat? and all of those move they will leave the bodies who use it open to a slash, Now sasuke has the same tsasuno as itachi if you notice b4 he went blind he completed it


based on what? susano was half blow to hell and some of the blast got through. because lasers and summons are still quite strong. that has no logic. firing lasers will block LoS so no it wont leave him open. same with summons as those will be in the way. like are you serious? common sense ftw. different ninja, different susano. but even with that logic the realms have all shown speed on par or greater than danzou who was avoiding sasukes susano. please dont ignore this again. thank you. i dont like fallacies




Lelouchprince3 said:


> That's the same tsasuno itachi used, Now why should we assumed that tsasuno is slower in its completed form? thats makes no sense to me also look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


more mass to move around. you dont understand how having more mass would slow someone down? 

it makes no difference. youre merely laboring under the fallacy that orochimarus snakes are extraoridnarily fast and ignoring the fact that orochimaru was in a speech thus was caught off guard. 

and please respodn to my whole post. go back and do it because i dont like the habit of people ignoring key points of someones argument. i believe that is a fallacy.



Soloman said:


> So a giant spirit warrior called the Raging God of Battle has no sword skill. Okay.



considering its not a sentinent being, no that doesnt qualify for amazing sword skill.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 31, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> based on what? susano was half blow to hell and some of the blast got through. because lasers and summons are still quite strong. that has no logic. firing lasers will block LoS so no it wont leave him open. same with summons as those will be in the way. like are you serious? common sense ftw. different ninja, different susano. but even with that logic the realms have all shown speed on par or greater than danzou who was avoiding sasukes susano. please dont ignore this again. thank you. i dont like fallacies



It wasnt even in its complete form yet and it tanked the majority of kirin and enable itachi to survive why would the laser which is slower and less powerful harm a fully completed tsasuno who is equipped with the mirror of yata?. As far as i could tell in naruto there has been only 1 type of summon for example only 1 manda and only 1 ma and pa and only 1 gamma bunta. Why are we to assuming there are multiple copys of the same spirit? and further more itachi  gave sasuke his ms so he can protect him even after his death, it says so in the third data book, so why are we to again assume they are diffrent?


sanji's left eye said:


> more mass to move around. you dont understand how having more mass would slow someone down?



Not always true,manda is oro's biggest snake aside from yamata and it has shown to be faster then the snakes that are smaller then it and further more tsasuno doesnt seem to have a physical form so there is no evidence to suggest that bigger = slower in this case, and more mass doesnt always = slower, i can dust a few of my friends who are smaller then me in a foot race.


sanji's left eye said:


> it makes no difference. youre merely laboring under the fallacy that orochimarus snakes are extraoridnarily fast and ignoring the fact that orochimaru was in a speech thus was caught off guard.



orochimaru took his sword out and was ready to attack, oro also in the past displayed ability to dodge while he was in the middle of a speech, he was also staring dead at itachi why would he not dodge if he seen it coming? perhaps maybe because he couldnt react to the speed?


sanji's left eye said:


> and please respodn to my whole post. go back and do it because i dont like the habit of people ignoring key points of someones argument. i believe that is a fallacy.



im trying to answer all you questions bring up any point i missed and i will address them


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## God (Mar 31, 2010)

How does Itachi escape having his soul ripped out again?


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## T-Pein™ (Apr 1, 2010)

How Exactly is Itachi going to beat Pein again?
The Rinnegan controls life and death


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2010)

Spoiler tag that image, T-Pein.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Hate to tell you this, but all the bodies save one dodged the FRS, which cleared an entire mountain range in under a second.
> They're that fast, sorry.
> 
> And 'held back?' No, Naruto briefly stood his ground against them. And when God Realm fought Kakashi, Nagato's attention was divided all across Konoha



Sorry to tell you this, but what you're saying is rather inaccurate and stupid...

Pain bodies evaded FRS, that's a fact... But who told you Itachi wouldn't( or any other d?cent character). You're assuming that evading FRS is some awesome exploit because you want to convince yourself that he can then escape amaterasu or HGR can throw himself to take it instead of another body....It took someone who was so fast that he had an after-image to avoid Ama... HGR wouldn't react for sure....


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Reading the tablet with all the MS's secrets on it? Check.



Rinnegan can do that. We have no confirmation that Nagato himself ever did.



> Access to Madara? Check.



Proves nothing specific, or important.



> Tests his men and researches before they join? Check



No idea what you're talking about here. Pain never did jack with any of his members, as far as we saw.



> You keep whining endlessly that the Yata counters HG with no proof. Sorry, kiddo, but I've shown it's made of chakra and HG 's technique is defensive.



The only thing you've done, "kiddo", is presuppose you've proven stuff that you haven't even come close to proving, while asserting that items explicitly stated to be purely spiritual and *incorporeal* are made of chakra, despite the fact that being able to change elemental characteristics does not prove that they are made of chakra, since it's never, EVER given that only chakra can be bestowed with elemental characteristics. Moreover, I like how you conveniently ignore that the shield can transform to account for more than just elemental changes.



> In short? Stop being such a weasel and answer things or you're on ignore



If you're so scared of having your arguments put under scrutiny that you'd ignore me just to avoid having to back up what you say, then I really don't think I could bring myself to care if you ignored me. If anything, it would be one less condescending pest for me to verbally flog in front of God and everyone.



> How does Tsukuyomi work? We're gonna walk even your little mind through this



Tsukuyomi "bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage" and is called a "spiritual attack." Anything that can experience a Genjutsu mentally should have enough of a mind for Tsukuyomi to destroy. If you've got a reason why that's not the case, other than "NO...! NO, THAT'S...JUST NO!", then let's hear it.



> Hello, distraction and cerberus



And with one swing of the Totsuka no Tsurugi, goodbye to both.



> Yawn. Itachi is not as fast as they are. He has shown nothing in the ballpark of the FRS alone or the dodging or interception of it



Not as fast as they are? Itachi is easily *faster* than they are. His ability to easily dodge all of Sasuke's attacks, supposedly even when he's in mid-air, had his Tsukuyomi not been broken and had he not been terminally-ill, attests to his incredible speed. Also, you think dodging Rasen Shuriken is impressive? Try activating a Jutsu in under a millisecond; lightning-timing, that's what Itachi did. You think Mach 1 is fast? Try Mach 172. Pain hasn't got shit on that.



> Yay, we can walk even the densest poster on this board through it!
> They have physical brains genjutsu affects. The problem is, as you ignore again because you're a dishonest fanboy, is that according to Jiraiya, Frog Song paralyzes the body *AND* the mind
> How can you cause mental trauma to what has no mind of its own?  Nagato is unaffected by the Genjutsu cast, meaning Tsukuyomi is wasted.



Since you're clearly an enlightened being who is much smarter and wiser than I, perhaps you can come up with a good reason why the Pain bodies were able to exist in the mental plane of Jiraiya's Genjutsu, rather than simply experiencing the bodily paralysis without all the toad imagery? Hmm? Surely this is within your realm of capability. You, who seems so keen to judge others and criticize their ability to mentally process information. You, who so readily crucifies me for the illogical blasphemy I espouse.



> Here's what the databook says:
> *This torture of the target for what seems like days on end, causing mental trauma that will render them unable to fight for an extensive period of time.*
> Since you probably don't understand that, it means that, the TORTURE is what affects them
> *The bodies cannot feel pain. It won't work*



"Torture" evidently also means "flashbacks of a single night", because Itachi was able to put Sasuke in a coma with just that.

Although, you're leaving out the vast majority of that entry. Tsukuyomi's full databook entry states that it is a spiritual attack that causes mental damage.



> He still wanted to interrogate Kakashi. You notice he generally had them incapacitated first. Human Realm can't be everywhere at once.
> And oh, you don't see? YOU don't see? Well, tough shit. We've had it confirmed in manga God Realm can alter the power of his attacks. We've seen him use much stronger Shinra Tensei attacks and kill or incapacitate other shinobi



Those other shinobi were weaker than Kakashi; they couldn't handle the same kinds of forces he could, and I'd imagine there isn't a lot of variability in the forces exerted on humans and human-sized targets since the attack is likened to gravity.

Also, you have yet to show that Tendou wasn't trying to kill Kakashi, like he tried to do with Iruka, and everyone else who denied him up-front. Moreover, you like talking about how it's "confirmed in the manga" that Tendou can control the power of its attacks, but you've neglected to show me this important evidence. That rather intrigues me.



> Oh, lord, what part of this escapes you?
> Kakashi attacked, Pain blasted him and the Doton wall away and expressed nothing resembling surprise or concern he was fine. We see he interrogated others when he had them incapacitated, and that he respected Kakashi enough to bring in another body.



More like, he didn't want to have to take Kakashi one-on-one. Had nothing to do with "respect." Pain didn't even view Jiraiya on his level, so I don't see why he would have any qualms about laying Kakashi flat and stomping all over him. Seems more like he just couldn't do it with one body.



> The idea 'oh, it depends on the target's mass!' is idiocy when we saw others laying around injured or DEAD due to the last ST



Because they weren't on Kakashi's level. The one exception being Chouza, but he's way more massive than Kakashi.

Also.

Maybe you'd better do a little research on gravity. The fact that that's the specific force Kakashi compared it to, is rather significant. And its showings have been entirely consistent with this.



> Shame the Pain bodies are faster than he is.
> And sorry, but dodging FRS>anything Itachi has shown via speed



This just shows how far up your own rabbit hole you are. Itachi activating Susano'o in time to intercept Kirin...is a far better speed feat than Tendou dodging Rasen Shuriken.

Although, how Rasen Shuriken, a thrown attack, is in any way amazingly different from Sasuke's giant shuriken, also a thrown attack, which Itachi casually jumped over, I'm not really sure.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2010)

> Ahhh, fanboyism...
> 'completely obliterates?' Itachi is lying in more or less the same place with rubble around. Zetsu was literally right there and unharmed. Sasuke would've been affected by the explosion as well.



The same place? Itachi, Sasuke, and Zetsu were several hundred feet up before Kirin hit; they were at ground-level afterwards.

Also, why are you so surprised that Sasuke and Zetsu could survive proximity to this attack? Any character worth anything in Naruto is massively superhuman. Not that it was really an explosion, anyway; it was just a massive surge of electricity that happened to send debris flying, one that would've been grounded once it struck.



> demon realm's laser? One shot's half was taking out a huge assortment of buildings and, what, several city blocks? Half



Look again. A few decent-sized buildings, but nothing even a fraction of the size of the Uchiha Hideout. You can even look at the panorama shot when Tendou is in the sky above Konoha, and you can see that Shuradou's laser didn't do as much damage as you're giving it credit for.



> Prove those have any defensive properties



Evidently they do, or he would've been dead. We clearly saw Kirin destroy a mountain-sized stone fortress- we know it's a powerful attack. Zetsu's ability to survive it, if anything, is a compliment to HIS power, not a knock on Kirin's.



> Sasuke standing above a giant obliteration wouldn't matter. He'd be affected



Perhaps somewhat, but clearly not enough to suffer any real damage.



> Cause you fanboy ITachi relentlessly? No.
> The bodies have no minds outside of a physical brain. Tsukuyomi, unlike Frog Song, takes place entirely within the mental realm and causes torture in some form to cause mental trauma
> Pain has nothing to mentally torture them with and they cannot feel physical pain



You're just giving me the same old song and dance. I want a substantial reason why they can experience Jiraiya's Genjutsu beyond mere bodily paralysis and why Tsukuyomi is suddenly a different story. If it were as simple as them only being affected because it affected their bodies, then they wouldn't have been floating inside the toad cube surrounded by the giant samurai toads, which was undeniably the mental manifestation of the illusory technique.



> Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall who only repeats "But Itachi's so cool."



And talking to you is like talking to a blind and deaf monkey with no arms trying to fornicate itself.



> And the Pain bodies have no consciousness of their own, making tsukuyomi worthless. If they're not dead, Nagato'll just keep them moving



With what? You do realize how sight works, don't you? The eyes send signals to the brain, which processes the information and gives the observer a sense of the image they are seeing. Nagato can't do that if the brain is fried. Moreover, he can't control any of their motor functions, either, since those are also controlled by the nervous system, of which the brain is the most crucial part. Since Nagato does not manually pull strings attached to the individual body parts of the Rikudou, since his only control is exerted through a series of chakra signals, and since the Rikudou were evidently able to experience the mental aspect of an illusion, it can only be concluded that their brains are the core that Nagato controls. Ergo, Tsukuyomi should work just fine, and in doing so disable the bodies completely. If you have a rebuttle to this, I would absolutely love to hear it.



> MAde of chakra, absorbed.



Nope. They are spiritual and incorporeal; they cannot be absorbed, and the chakra of Fuujutsu Kyuuin will be nullified.



> For the last time, so you understand:
> 1. The items are part of Susanoo itself. Ergo? Chakra



Being a part of something does not demand that each part possess the same qualities or composition as the rest of the other parts.



> 2. The yata No Kagami is stated to possess all nature alterations. Thus? Chakra!



Chakra is not necessarily the only thing that can undergo elemental recomposition. You also, yet again, seem to all-too-conveniently ignore the fact that the shield can alter its form to answer to more than just elemental changes.



> 3. Yata's Mirror is only said to defense against, gasp of gasps, ATTACKS. absorption is a purely defensive attack.



Now you're just dicking around with semantics. And in your haste to grasp at straws, you killed your own argument, referring to Fuujutsu Kyuuin as a "defensive *attack*." A defensive move if used offensively is as much an attack as an offensive move used for that purpose. There is no legitimate qualitative difference between hurling a Katon fireball at the Yata no Kagami and erecting a defensive Katon wall before it; its mechanics dictate that it will change its nature to nullify the chakra of the two Katons, and the status of these Jutsu as offensive or defensive-oriented would not affect that as long as they made contact with it, because that's really all that's required.



> In other words, get over it. If your next post is still you being as much of a blind fanboy, you're on ignore because frankly, no poster here should waste their time with someone like you.



You've threatened to ignore me...like three or four times now. Either do it...or shut the hell up about it...because I have no control over what you do with your account settings...and I certainly don't give even the slightest of shits.



> You're not smart, you're not funny and you suck at debating



Apparently I'm still smart enough, funny enough, and good enough at debating to reduce you to a sputtering internet troll whose only remaining recourse is a series of enraged diatribes fraught with ad hominem accusations.



Lightysnake said:


> We see it impact and only then does it say 'four seconds left.'



Manga panels are dynamic. If anything, the text box being on the right side of the panel suggests the 4-count was reached first.



> Know when you really need to drop a point? When it makes you look this tragically sad.



A rare example of you giving good advice. You should take it.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> his cloak was blown and he was left on the ground. some of the blast got through. and i thought it was known that susano got worn down from getting attacked by the kirin.



It was the ribcage portion. As seen with the Mizukage's acid mist, Susano'o has gaps between the ribs that attacks can get through. Itachi was partially exposed to the attack.



> im just saying a genjutsu that pralyzes is 1 thing (i think itachi could do that just fine) but due to tsukiyomi has to attack the actual persons mind it shouldnt work on a corpse or transfer to nagato being out of range.



Let me ask you this: If there's enough of a mind for them to experience a Genjutsu in the first place, don't you think that's enough of a mind to be destroyed by Tsukuyomi? And since Nagato does not manually control their individual body parts, don't you think that just MAYBE the brain is how he controls the bodies with those chakra signals of his?



> well sasuke used amaterasu with susano up. and the OP says non MS jutsu.



Ah, so it does. 

This will prove tricky, then. Itachi has lost a significant advantage.



Lightysnake said:


> Yaaaaaawn
> Not capturing Naruto? He tried. He failed
> Keeping Pain from Konoha? Madara sent him anyways when Itachi was still alive. Kakuzu and deidara were both assigned the KYuubi first
> He also gave Naruto something for...Sasuke alone, not for detriment of Akatsuki
> ...



This is just your pointless -snip- criticism. Madara regarded Itachi as an obstacle and Itachi did in fact prolong Naruto's capture, giving little if no assistance towards that effort. As for Pain, it's likely Madara knew that Itachi's final confrontation with and death at the hands of Sasuke was close at hand; remember, he regarded Itachi's death as an event that finally gave him license to resume his arch-villainy against Konoha.

As for Sasuke, he's clearly got a pivotal role in Madara's plans, so taking him down will prove catastrophic for Akatsuki's objective in the long run.



> Absrobing something isn't an attack. Jutsu applications never change. The FK is a purely defensive jutsu no matter how it's used according to the databook.
> So, whoops, sorry.



You're just hiding behind semantics. If it makes contact with the shield, there's absolutely no reason the shield would be picky and go "WHOOPS! NOT AN ATTACK-TYPE JUTSU, CAN'T NULLIFY IT."



> Hah. Prove it.



His ribcage portion is what he initially activated, herp derp. 



> Oh, wait, NO, you can't. Because Susanoo's always been shown as instant when summoned before and was just slowly reforming...which means:
> A. Your precious golden boy failed to fully tank Susanoo considering
> B. His robe was vaporized
> C. He was coughing up blood
> D. He was laying face down while burned.



Ribs have gaps between them. Itachi WAS partially exposed to the attack.



> Sasuke showed the ability to summon his full Susanoo instantly whenever he brought it out. Why is it different from Itachi?



The only time Sasuke showed the ability to summon his full Susano'o at all, it crapped out on him seconds later. Prior to that, he was just bringing out the gimped version, and he often did only one hand and a few ribs at a time, as opposed to full activation, which even then was often just the skeletal structure.



> One stated to paralyze the body as well as the mind



You know my response to this. Let's save ourselves the redundancy.



> Hell realm can dodge the FRS. Itachi's shown no speed resembling it



Kirin. Mach 172. Lightning-timing. Dodging all of Sasuke's attacks. Far more impressive than anything Pain's done.

Jigokudou got tagged by Konohamaru, btw. Some speed.


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## MyEyes (Apr 1, 2010)

Pain cant counter tsukuyomi 
and u  dont have a proof that he really can.
and if u forgot tsukuyomi is a 1 instant rape. the other bodies wouldn't even figure out what's going on.
OWNED.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 1, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> It wasnt even in its complete form yet and it tanked the majority of kirin and enable itachi to survive why would the laser which is slower and less powerful harm a fully completed tsasuno who is equipped with the mirror of yata?. As far as i could tell in naruto there has been only 1 type of summon for example only 1 manda and only 1 ma and pa and only 1 gamma bunta. Why are we to assuming there are multiple copys of the same spirit? and further more itachi  gave sasuke his ms so he can protect him even after his death, it says so in the third data book, so why are we to again assume they are diffrent?


slower has nothing to do with the damage it will inflict. less powerful? sure. does it need to be as powerful? nope just still powerful. and of course hungry ghost is a factor that has been neglected. sasukes susano is far different compared to itachis however. because its a jutsu not a kuchiyose. they look completely different with diff weapons etc. either way ill use this flawed logic as it just makes my job easier.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Not always true,manda is oro's biggest snake aside from yamata and it has shown to be faster then the snakes that are smaller then it and further more tsasuno doesnt seem to have a physical form so there is no evidence to suggest that bigger = slower in this case, and more mass doesnt always = slower, i can dust a few of my friends who are smaller then me in a foot race.


youve neglected variables such as the fact that these are different people with different amounts of musceles, genes, etc. far too many variables to be an accurate comparison. we are comparing the same thing (susano) with more mass. sprint 100 meters as fast as you can. then put 10 pound leg weights on. do you run the same speed? punch something. then pick up a sword and swing it. which is faster and you have more control over?



Lelouchprince3 said:


> orochimaru took his sword out and was ready to attack, oro also in the past displayed ability to dodge while he was in the middle of a speech, he was also staring dead at itachi why would he not dodge if he seen it coming? perhaps maybe because he couldnt react to the speed?


he was still speaking. just because he can react to slower attacks while being distracted doesnt constitute he can react to faster ones. that in no way proves that being distracted doesnt matter. and orochimaru tanks attacks if you havent noticed. looking at itachi not the transparent figure with the huge sword surrounding itachi.

Fact is pain can dodge susano easily. not that hard.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> im trying to answer all you questions bring up any point i missed and i will address them


ive repeated points but of course ignoring the whole hungry ghost issue is a problem



Nikushimi said:


> It was the ribcage portion. As seen with the Mizukage's acid mist, Susano'o has gaps between the ribs that attacks can get through. Itachi was partially exposed to the attack.



dont think thats relavent.



Nikushimi said:


> Let me ask you this: If there's enough of a mind for them to experience a Genjutsu in the first place, don't you think that's enough of a mind to be destroyed by Tsukuyomi? And since Nagato does not manually control their individual body parts, don't you think that just MAYBE the brain is how he controls the bodies with those chakra signals of his?




torturing someones mind would only be relavent if a mind was alive to be tortured. however ill acknowledge the possibility.



Nikushimi said:


> Ah, so it does.
> 
> This will prove tricky, then. Itachi has lost a significant advantage.


lol try impossible.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Sorry to tell you this, but what you're saying is rather inaccurate and stupid...
> 
> Pain bodies evaded FRS, that's a fact... But who told you Itachi wouldn't( or any other d?cent character). You're assuming that evading FRS is some awesome exploit because you want to convince yourself that he can then escape amaterasu or HGR can throw himself to take it instead of another body....It took someone who was so fast that he had an after-image to avoid Ama... HGR wouldn't react for sure....



Yeah, let's have proof Itachi is anywhere near that fast. In all honest, FRS has shown itself to be faster than anything in his arsenal by covering an entire mountain range in under a single second.


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## Smiley (Apr 2, 2010)

Why can't people just except that itachi will *NOT* win against pain. Damn itachi fans take their own beliefs over logic. 

Deva path was shown to tank a 6 tailed concentrated chakra blast and still be able to fight without being fatigued. Anyone else thinks that itachi could tank one? and please dont say susanoo would block that, the raikage's attack split sasuke's susanoo which was stronger than itachi's susanoo.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> slower has nothing to do with the damage it will inflict. less powerful? sure. does it need to be as powerful? nope just still powerful. and of course hungry ghost is a factor that has been neglected. sasukes susano is far different compared to itachis however. because its a jutsu not a kuchiyose. they look completely different with diff weapons etc. either way ill use this flawed logic as it just makes my job easier.


I still dont see how peins laser will do any damage as i said, if a incomplete tsasuno took majority of the damage for itachi why would peins laser pose any threat when his sasuno is completed and has the mirror of yata? last time i checked all atks was useless b4 the mirror of yata. Sasuke susano only has showned difrrent forms due to being incomplete, but they have the same susano now look,  thats sasuke's version b4 he attained the bow, now look  thats itachi's version when he coughed up blood and began to weaken, You see how they look identical when itachi begins to weaken? and they are also identical when sasuke completed it b4 he began to lose his vision so why are we to assume its diffrent?, i understand susano is not a summon but the databook says the user uses chakra to become the medium for the spirit and the spirit in turn drains there life force so again why are we to assume that theres more then 1 of the same spirit?.


sanji's left eye said:


> youve neglected variables such as the fact that these are different people with different amounts of musceles, genes, etc. far too many variables to be an accurate comparison. we are comparing the same thing (susano) with more mass. sprint 100 meters as fast as you can. then put 10 pound leg weights on. do you run the same speed? punch something. then pick up a sword and swing it. which is faster and you have more control over?


I dont understand your point here when you say we are comparing diffrent ppl, if you mean sasuke and itachi there is no proof to state that a person muscles or genes have a impact on susano. Now to address your theory, that is correct because leg weights are not apart of your body so your not use to it so of course you will move slower but that does not mean that someone who is more physically fit than me cant come, put on leg weights and beat me in a race even if i dont wear none you see where im going with this? in this paticular case the full and completed susano would be the more physically fit person.


sanji's left eye said:


> he was still speaking. just because he can react to slower attacks while being distracted doesnt constitute he can react to faster ones. that in no way proves that being distracted doesnt matter. and orochimaru tanks attacks if you havent noticed. looking at itachi not the transparent figure with the huge sword surrounding itachi.


 Oro was able to see susano and so was zetsu,he even pointed out the legendary items, so i dont see why oro wouldnt be able to see susano when he was closer and his hydra even attacked susano b4 he came out, and also oro was able to react to the 3 tail and 4 tail kyubi while talking at close distance, so why wouldnt he be able to react to susano? maybe because it was to fast for him?


sanji's left eye said:


> Fact is pain can dodge susano easily. not that hard.


That is your opinion, i dont even see a ic pein attempting to realy run from susano with his whole god complex and all, he will stay and try to battle with it and utterly fail without deva. Also i like to point out danzo was only able to dodge via izangi, i dont even know if that counts as dodging but anyway i just wanted to point that out so you cant say because danzo dodged it pein can dodge it as well and danzo also had knowledge on susano so he was well prepaired.



sanji's left eye said:


> ive repeated points but of course ignoring the whole hungry ghost issue is a problem



You stated you dont believe the items are made of chakra so i assumed we didnt have a problem hear sry, hungry ghost can be swipe with a giant sword or blocked with the giant shield b4 he comes into range to absorb susano.






KazujiN said:


> Why can't people just except that itachi will *NOT* win against pain. Damn itachi fans take their own beliefs over logic.
> 
> Deva path was shown to tank a 6 tailed concentrated chakra blast and still be able to fight without being fatigued. Anyone else thinks that itachi could tank one? and please dont say susanoo would block that, the raikage's attack split sasuke's susanoo which was stronger than itachi's susanoo.


Yeah sasuke's failed susano at the hokage summit is realy stronger then itachi's, infact its so much stronger it didnt even need the mirror of yata right? -_-  i swer the misconceptions ppl have about pein is so hilarious, pein didnt tank shyt the chakra blast blew up near him, if he would have gotten hit by the chakra blast he would have been dead end of story, deva is no wear near as durable as oro and oro admitted if a 4 tailed kyubi chakra blast him he would die


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## GodXItachi (Apr 2, 2010)

Itachi has this easily, everyone seems to be forgetting this simple fact about the Rinnegan, it grants you linked eye sight to all the paths and Nagato.
One Tsukuyomi and every path and Nagato are KOed, doesn't matter which path he even hits.
Its said before that Itachi's Tsukuyomi can only be broken by someone who shares his same blood and wields the sharingan.
Pein having neither = royally fucked lol

Another thing, if Itachi didn't want to win by Genjutsu he could always perform Shunshin no Jutsu, speed himself up faster then raikage for like 5 seconds, and kill every path with his Susanoo's Totsuka Sword. 

Only chance Pein would have in the straight up fight would be Preta Path and its absorbing powers, with Susanoo being made of pure chakra it would be absorbed down to the bones, only question would be if he could absorb the entire susanoo with out well....exploding.
Its shown his absorbing powers to not be very great when absorbing so much of Naruto's sage chakra turned it in to a stone frog.

So every way i look at it Itachi has this easily, especially with the circumstances, Madara even stated that if Itachi was trying in his fight he would of killed Sasuke, he even went as far to say that if he didn't hide that he knew certain things about Itachi that Itachi would of killed him.

So if Madara quotes that Itachi could of killed even him then Pein would be honestly no problem.


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## Angoobo (Apr 2, 2010)

Lol this thread is till running?
Pain obliterates Itachi, there is no doubt about that.
Itachi has Ino's level chakra, Pain is a tanker...

And Madara said Itachi could've killed with his sneaky attack(even Konohamru would kill Madara if he attacked him with a rasengan off-guards)


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## GodXItachi (Apr 2, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Lol this thread is till running?
> Pain obliterates Itachi, there is no doubt about that.
> Itachi has Ino's level chakra, Pain is a tanker...
> 
> And Madara said Itachi could've killed with his sneaky attack(even Konohamru would kill Madara if he attacked him with a rasengan off-guards)



Ino's Level ??
Please either your a itachi hater or a pein fanboy.
The Uchiha's are praised for there high chakra levels.
Exact levels of Itachi's will never be known due to him dieing, but with the recent reincarnation of him in the manga we should see more soon same with Nagato.


Where the hell in this does it say he could only kill him with a sneak attack.
What kind of ninja sleeps where others are trying to kill them.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2010)

Actually the Uchiha were praised for their powerful Chakras, not their high amount of Chakra.


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## GodXItachi (Apr 2, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Actually the Uchiha were praised for their powerful Chakras, not their high amount of Chakra.



Whoops my mistake on that i misread my bad lol
Point still is Itachi still has a very high chakra level, from everything shown with him in battle.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 2, 2010)

Deva is so durable that he tanked a rasengan...Oh wait...

Deva is as fast as kakashi, who was inferior to itachi, so Itachi Will most likely be able to do what pain bodies did( don't forget that Itachi reacting to Kirin>>>>Pain bodies reacting to FRS)

Stop the wanking....It's annoying


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> I still dont see how peins laser will do any damage as i said, if a incomplete tsasuno took majority of the damage for itachi why would peins laser pose any threat when his sasuno is completed and has the mirror of yata? last time i checked all atks was useless b4 the mirror of yata. Sasuke susano only has showned difrrent forms due to being incomplete, but they have the same susano now look,  thats sasuke's version b4 he attained the bow, now look  thats itachi's version when he coughed up blood and began to weaken, You see how they look identical when itachi begins to weaken? and they are also identical when sasuke completed it b4 he began to lose his vision so why are we to assume its diffrent?, i understand susano is not a summon but the databook says the user uses chakra to become the medium for the spirit and the spirit in turn drains there life force so again why are we to assume that theres more then 1 of the same spirit?


if the attack hits the mirror. in fact ill use common sense. yatas mirror turns to block missles/lasers. then its open to an aborption from hungry ghost on a spot where yatas mirror isnt covered.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> I dont understand your point here when you say we are comparing diffrent ppl, if you mean sasuke and itachi there is no proof to state that a person muscles or genes have a impact on susano. Now to address your theory, that is correct because leg weights are not apart of your body so your not use to it so of course you will move slower but that does not mean that someone who is more physically fit than me cant come, put on leg weights and beat me in a race even if i dont wear none you see where im going with this? in this paticular case the full and completed susano would be the more physically fit person.


your comparison about you running against your friends is what was debunked. if we were dealing with 2 different people i would agree. but we are not. according to you susano is susano and a susano with armor will be slower than one without.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> Oro was able to see susano and so was zetsu,he even pointed out the legendary items, so i dont see why oro wouldnt be able to see susano when he was closer and his hydra even attacked susano b4 he came out, and also oro was able to react to the 3 tail and 4 tail kyubi while talking at close distance, so why wouldnt he be able to react to susano? maybe because it was to fast for him?


where does it say anywhere in my post that susano is invisible? the fact remains that he was busy talking and looking at itachi not paying attention to susano. thats a hard core fallacy. orochimaru can react to naruto while talking. thus anyone he doesnt react to while talking makes him slower. terrible fallacy as his reactions are slowed down when not focusing on fighting.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> That is your opinion, i dont even see a ic pein attempting to realy run from susano with his whole god complex and all, he will stay and try to battle with it and utterly fail without deva. Also i like to point out danzo was only able to dodge via izangi, i dont even know if that counts as dodging but anyway i just wanted to point that out so you cant say because danzo dodged it pein can dodge it as well and danzo also had knowledge on susano so he was well prepaired.


he dodged FRS. pain doesnt tank attacks that he doesnt have to. danzou only dodged when he needed to i.e. when izanagi wasnt active.



danzou dodges when he doesnt have izanagi to bail him out.

he new it by name. he wasnt even sure himself when he saw it. seeing a giant creature doesnt equate to being able to dodge it. knowing the name of a giant monster thats attacking you doesnt make you any better dodging it than someone who doesnt know the name



Lelouchprince3 said:


> You stated you dont believe the items are made of chakra so i assumed we didnt have a problem hear sry, hungry ghost can be swipe with a giant sword or blocked with the giant shield b4 he comes into range to absorb susano.


yatas mirror isnt some sort of byakugan. it doesnt cover 360 degrees. he could simply run around the mirror or with animal/laser destructions get behind it or to the side of it to absorb susano.


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## Angoobo (Apr 2, 2010)

GodXItachi said:


> Whoops my mistake on that i misread my bad lol
> Point still is Itachi still has a very high chakra level, from everything shown with him in battle.



Look at DB b4 spouting nonsense...


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Deva is so durable that he tanked a rasengan...Oh wait...
> 
> Deva is as fast as kakashi, who was inferior to itachi, so Itachi Will most likely be able to do what pain bodies did( don't forget that Itachi reacting to Kirin>>>>Pain bodies reacting to FRS)
> 
> Stop the wanking....It's annoying



Deva's speed feat of dodging the FRS is greater than anything Itachi ever did...and don't forget KAkashi, when he fought the Shoten clone-which only takes a chakra hit, everything else is the same- did just fine in close quarters.

Also, Nagato's attention was kind of divided up by six places in Konoha in addition to Kakashi.


aNd Itachi has a 2.5 in stamina. Kakashi said some people, like himself, have naturally low chakra levels. And before you pull the illness nonsense, Kimimaro had a 4.5 in stamina


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> if the attack hits the mirror. in fact ill use common sense. yatas mirror turns to block missles/lasers. then its open to an aborption from hungry ghost on a spot where yatas mirror isnt covered.





Thats if itachi ops to block the missle's and lasers with the shield you make it seem as if itachi's full attention has to be on the laser's and missles, if sasuno took damage from kirin in a incomplete state, it can take damage from the lesser powerful missles and lasers in a complete state with more armor and slash hungry realm from absorbing him. A 30% itachi clone was reactive to naruto and kakashi, no reason itachi wouldnt be reactive to hungry ghost realms attempts to absorb tsasuno who is inferior to kakashi in terms of speed.


sanji's left eye said:


> your comparison about you running against your friends is what was debunked. if we were dealing with 2 different people i would agree. but we are not. according to you susano is susano and a susano with armor will be slower than one without.




Yes but if you pay attention i said the more completed sasuno is the different variable in this scenerio, Its more developed,  Like for example even if i place leg weights on myself i will run faster then i did at age 12.



sanji's left eye said:


> where does it say anywhere in my post that susano is invisible? the fact remains that he was busy talking and looking at itachi not paying attention to susano. thats a hard core fallacy. orochimaru can react to naruto while talking. thus anyone he doesnt react to while talking makes him slower. terrible fallacy as his reactions are slowed down when not focusing on fighting.


 You said transparent to me it sounded like you were indicating oro had trouble seeing but i could be mistaken. I dont see why oro would not pay attention to susano that doesnt make anysense to me, he was about to fight itachi and took out the kusanagi  blade why would he not look at what he probably has to fight and what cut off all his yamata heads? look  as soon as the kyubi put his hands underground oro reacted dodged and that would be much harder to see then a giant sword attempting to stab you. Also look   while jumping back because of the bridge oro was reactive enough to dodge the hand of the kyubi, so again why wouldnt oro be able to dodge the sword of totsuka? please dont say because he was talking because that makes 0 sense because b4 oro dodged the kyubi he was laughing and in the other scenerio he was on a narrow bridge and just finish being pushed back. Also look /http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/294/08/ orochimaru is not slow this panel shows he is capable of swift movement. 



sanji's left eye said:


> he dodged FRS. pain doesnt tank attacks that he doesnt have to. danzou only dodged when he needed to i.e. when izanagi wasnt active.




He dodged FRS he didnt change his stragety and attempted to stall, of course he will attempt to dodge the sword but he will not opt for a defensive stragety against sasuno


sanji's left eye said:


> danzou dodges when he doesnt have izanagi to bail him out.


do you see how he has to dodge susano? the answer wasnt "short hopping", so of course pein can jump up, but then he is in the air and wide open to another atk and sasuke didnt even have the sword itachi does he will be able to reach the bodies if they try to jump up or back.



sanji's left eye said:


> he new it by name. he wasnt even sure himself when he saw it. seeing a giant creature doesnt equate to being able to dodge it. knowing the name of a giant monster thats attacking you doesnt make you any better dodging it than someone who doesnt know the name




He knows what to look out for and knows it wont do much good attempting to atk it directly


sanji's left eye said:


> yatas mirror isnt some sort of byakugan. it doesnt cover 360 degrees. he could simply run around the mirror or with animal/laser destructions get behind it or to the side of it to absorb susano.



 I already addressed this point in my first responsive itachi doesnt have to guard with the shield.



Lightysnake said:


> Deva's speed feat of dodging the FRS is greater than anything Itachi ever did...and don't forget KAkashi, when he fought the Shoten clone-which only takes a chakra hit, everything else is the same- did just fine in close quarters.
> 
> Also, Nagato's attention was kind of divided up by six places in Konoha in addition to Kakashi.
> 
> ...


 Lighty are you realy serious? i agree itachi has low stamina but avoiding a FRS from a distance is greater then anything itachi has everdone? lolz forget when itachi dodges kakashi's raikiris along with naruto clones, or we forget he dodges a bunch of shurinkens and forms hand seals while dodgeing them, we forget when he caught sasukes hand while sasuke attempted to chidori him and we forget he reacted to lighting, but yeah Dodging  FRS from a distance is realy hard, i find it funny how you forgot to mention how pein barley dodged kakashi's raikiri and was even scared to come close to him after that and how you forget to mention itachi dodged a arsonel of sasuke's moves while on the verge of blindness.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Thats if itachi ops to block the missle's and lasers with the shield you make it seem as if itachi's full attention has to be on the laser's and missles, if sasuno took damage from kirin in a incomplete state, it can take damage from the lesser powerful missles and lasers in a complete state with more armor and slash hungry realm from absorbing him. A 30% itachi clone was reactive to naruto and kakashi, no reason itachi wouldnt be reactive to hungry ghost realms attempts to absorb tsasuno who is inferior to kakashi in terms of speed.


he opted to block sasukes basic sword slash with yatas mirror. he opted to block a few tag bombs on some kunai with yatas mirror. if he sees lasers/missles/summons coming at him he will block with the mirror just as he did before and he doesnt know of asuras power so he would be taking a risk. so IC itachi would use yatas mirror to block. whether they hurt susano or not is not the point. the point is that itachi IC will use the shield to block as he has shown in the examples i just told you. hungry ghost would just dodge the sword. thats not a good comparison at all. for one it was 30% chakra itachi. his speed/skill didnt decline merely his chakra. and this is an itachi who is having every cell in his body attacked from the pain of susano and an itachi who is controlling susano not his own body. so no not a good comparison. not even a little bit.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> Yes but if you pay attention i said the more completed sasuno is the different variable in this scenerio, Its more developed,  Like for example even if i place leg weights on myself i will run faster then i did at age 12.


the difference is that susano isnt gaining any more muscles or anything. it gains armor. its not developing in the sense that the actual being is developing but it gets armor. thus slower.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> You said transparent to me it sounded like you were indicating oro had trouble seeing but i could be mistaken. I dont see why oro would not pay attention to susano that doesnt make anysense to me, he was about to fight itachi and took out the kusanagi  blade why would he not look at what he probably has to fight and what cut off all his yamata heads? look  as soon as the kyubi put his hands underground oro reacted dodged and that would be much harder to see then a giant sword attempting to stab you. Also look   while jumping back because of the bridge oro was reactive enough to dodge the hand of the kyubi, so again why wouldnt oro be able to dodge the sword of totsuka? please dont say because he was talking because that makes 0 sense because b4 oro dodged the kyubi he was laughing and in the other scenerio he was on a narrow bridge and just finish being pushed back. Also look /http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/294/08/ orochimaru is not slow this panel shows he is capable of swift movement.


sorry if i was unclear. by transparent i didnt mean invisible. orochimaru is literally that arrogant. why would orochimaru look into itachis eyes to perform the life reincarnation ritual damn well knowing itachi is a genjutsu monster? but if someone is talking focusing in on a certain person and his/her speech then someone suddenly throwing a rock at him from the audience the persons reactions are goign to be slower as he/she arent paying attention. they may or may not dodge but the reactions will still be slower. against KN4 he was actively fighting 1 on 1 not in some monologue. its not a matter of seeing anything its a matter of focus. your arguments dont address anything. orochimaru wasnt talking at any of those points. how does being caught off guard not make any sense? its common sense. your entire argument is just terrible because of a basic fallacy attempting to prove that orochimarus reactions are just as good when talking then when he isnt. and unles you have 2 susano comparisons 1 of which he is talking  and another in which he isnt your entire post right here is a fallacy. i believe thats false cause and effect.





Lelouchprince3 said:


> He dodged FRS he didnt change his stragety and attempted to stall, of course he will attempt to dodge the sword but he will not opt for a defensive stragety against sasuno


it will be an offensive/defensive strategy. thats how pain fights. 






Lelouchprince3 said:


> He knows what to look out for and knows it wont do much good attempting to atk it directly


he used 2 izanagis to test that actually. point is danzou dodged. pain bodies have speed feats on the same level so pain can dodge susano. this isnt even including all of the missles/laser/summons they can use to block LoS and force itachi to put up yatas mirror.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I already addressed this point in my first responsive itachi doesnt have to guard with the shield.


its what he does however as he doesnt take risks. so no you havent


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

> Lighty are you realy serious? i agree itachi has low stamina but avoiding a FRS from a distance is greater then anything itachi has everdone? lolz forget when itachi dodges kakashi's raikiris along with naruto clones, or we forget he dodges a bunch of shurinkens and forms hand seals while dodgeing them, we forget when he caught sasukes hand while sasuke attempted to chidori him and we forget he reacted to lighting, but yeah Dodging FRS from a distance is realy hard, i find it funny how you forgot to mention how pein barley dodged kakashi's raikiri and was even scared to come close to him after that and how you forget to mention itachi dodged a arsonel of sasuke's moves while on the verge of blindness.



Kunai and Raikiri do not compare to a projectile that crosses an entire mountain range in under a second. And when did Pain 'barely' dodge a Raikiri? Demon Realm easily ducked under it. God Real  dodged it casually, Demon Realm intercepted it.

And wow, he intercepted an attack from a 12 year old Genin...


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> he opted to block sasukes basic sword slash with yatas mirror. he opted to block a few tag bombs on some kunai with yatas mirror. if he sees lasers/missles/summons coming at him he will block with the mirror just as he did before and he doesnt know of asuras power so he would be taking a risk. so IC itachi would use yatas mirror to block. whether they hurt susano or not is not the point. the point is that itachi IC will use the shield to block as he has shown in the examples i just told you. hungry ghost would just dodge the sword. thats not a good comparison at all. for one it was 30% chakra itachi. his speed/skill didnt decline merely his chakra. and this is an itachi who is having every cell in his body attacked from the pain of susano and an itachi who is controlling susano not his own body. so no not a good comparison. not even a little bit.



Rember this is not a IC itachi and he has full knowledge on preta why would he let preta get rid of his top defense? and that was a good comparasion read the op it say's suasno will not hinder his movement 1 bit, so if he was able to react to kakashi he will react to hungry realm, plus he is not on the verge of blindness in this scenerio.


sanji's left eye said:


> the difference is that susano isnt gaining any more muscles or anything. it gains armor. its not developing in the sense that the actual being is developing but it gets armor. thus slower.


Your assuming it does not get the least bit stronger which i cannot agree with, why would it get a shield and sword if it wouldnt get stronger to use it? that wouldnt make  no sense lol its like telling a baby bird to jump out of its nest b4 it learns to fly or telling a lion cub go tackle that gazell, they wont be able to do those things until there ready , suasno wouldnt get the items unless it was ready to handle them.There no reason to assuming spiritual items even contain mass so again i dont see him being slower, if this was the case susano would suck lolz might as well keep it in its weak state and spam arrows.


sanji's left eye said:


> sorry if i was unclear. by transparent i didnt mean invisible. orochimaru is literally that arrogant. why would orochimaru look into itachis eyes to perform the life reincarnation ritual damn well knowing itachi is a genjutsu monster? but if someone is talking focusing in on a certain person and his/her speech then someone suddenly throwing a rock at him from the audience the persons reactions are goign to be slower as he/she arent paying attention. they may or may not dodge but the reactions will still be slower. against KN4 he was actively fighting 1 on 1 not in some monologue. its not a matter of seeing anything its a matter of focus. your arguments dont address anything. orochimaru wasnt talking at any of those points. how does being caught off guard not make any sense? its common sense. your entire argument is just terrible because of a basic fallacy attempting to prove that orochimarus reactions are just as good when talking then when he isnt. and unles you have 2 susano comparisons 1 of which he is talking  and another in which he isnt your entire post right here is a fallacy. i believe thats false cause and effect.


 its cool but lemme ask you a
 Question which would catch you more off guard and be harder to avoid? A.if your talking to someone and a very large object makes it's way toward you from the same direction you were facing the entire time?
or B. Your body is being physically pushed back and your in a narrow space,  meaning you cant move left or right, your hands is over your face to block the dust so basicly its hard to look straight ahead and while your being pushed back a Object about regluar size comes rushing at you?




sanji's left eye said:


> it will be an offensive/defensive strategy. thats how pain fights.




While pein is using all 6 bodies i have only seen pein go on offensive, only 1 body realy opts for defense and thats preta and even he attempts to go on offense.



sanji's left eye said:


> he used 2 izanagis to test that actually. point is danzou dodged. pain bodies have speed feats on the same level so pain can dodge susano. this isnt even including all of the missles/laser/summons they can use to block LoS and force itachi to put up yatas mirror.


  My point is danzo dodged then left himself wide open, if a pein body dodges the sameway danzo did without izanagi there are getting sealed, and your also forgetting itachi can use shuunin jutsu and cast non ms jutsu's while inside susano so if pein gets ready to fire the laser's a simple genjutsu can make him change his target.



sanji's left eye said:


> its what he does however as he doesnt take risks. so no you havent



This is not ic itachi and he has shuunshin jutsu


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## MyEyes (Apr 2, 2010)

ffs stop talk on the stamina of itachi
who knows that he got low stamina?
someone said that on the show? no !
comment about what u see and know about both of them
and itachi was iil and got heart attacks . he doesnt need to spamm ms like sasuke because he is more skilled. and u have no proof that susano'o can really be absorbed and if it can he can seal the others away and then taijutsu the absorbing one


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Rember this is not a IC itachi and he has full knowledge on preta why would he let preta get rid of his top defense? and that was a good comparasion read the op it say's suasno will not hinder his movement 1 bit, so if he was able to react to kakashi he will react to hungry realm, plus he is not on the verge of blindness in this scenerio.


you are partially correct. however we are talking about susanos ability to hit not itachis. he wouldnt let preta. but itachi  still isnt a risk taker. he wont risk missles that could kill him when he can block with yatas mirror. and then he absorbs in that opening



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Your assuming it does not get the least bit stronger which i cannot agree with, why would it get a shield and sword if it wouldnt get stronger to use it? that wouldnt make  no sense lol its like telling a baby bird to jump out of its nest b4 it learns to fly or telling a lion cub go tackle that gazell, they wont be able to do those things until there ready , suasno wouldnt get the items unless it was ready to handle them.There no reason to assuming spiritual items even contain mass so again i dont see him being slower, if this was the case susano would suck lolz might as well keep it in its weak state and spam arrows.


 i didnt say it wouldnt be stronger. im saying slower. and the objects are tangible as the blocked attacks/cut through real snakes. and i was more so talking about the extra chakra armor not the items. well while susano would be slower ill take an ultimate defense and a huge sword to make up for it.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> its cool but lemme ask you a
> Question which would catch you more off guard and be harder to avoid? A.if your talking to someone and a very large object makes it's way toward you from the same direction you were facing the entire time?
> or B. Your body is being physically pushed back and your in a narrow space,  meaning you cant move left or right, your hands is over your face to block the dust so basicly its hard to look straight ahead and while your being pushed back a Object about regluar size comes rushing at you?


ask away. depends on the speed of both objects. assuming they are the same speed i would say B is harder. however i dont know what this has to do with the discussion at hand.






Lelouchprince3 said:


> While pein is using all 6 bodies i have only seen pein go on offensive, only 1 body realy opts for defense and thats preta and even he attempts to go on offense.


well i think ive seen all of them go on the defensive. note the pain fight against jiraiya and against naruto. hell running from FRS counts as a defensive action.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> My point is danzo dodged then left himself wide open, if a pein body dodges the sameway danzo did without izanagi there are getting sealed, and your also forgetting itachi can use shuunin jutsu and cast non ms jutsu's while inside susano so if pein gets ready to fire the laser's a simple genjutsu can make him change his target.


not really. look at the times i posted where he dodged. in no time was a follow up attack quickly done to attack the pain body again. itachi makes wide swings and always follws through with his attacks. he wouldnt be able to quickly follow up with susano. he would have to use a non MS jutsu as you said. a genjutsu would force him into close range i.e. 5 meters or less. if he did that and lets say he is focuing on human real mfor instance the other 5 realms would attack in that blindspot and hungry ghost would easily absorb. since after all itachi wold have to split his attention 6 ways which would seriously distract him.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> This is not ic itachi and he has shuunshin jutsu


ok and shunshin will help him how? in fact moving quickly towards a target makes him more open to attacks form all directions


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> ffs stop talk on the stamina of itachi
> who knows that he got low stamina?
> someone said that on the show? no !
> comment about what u see and know about both of them



It's in the databook



> and itachi was iil and got heart attacks . he doesnt need to spamm ms like sasuke because he is more skilled. and u have no proof that susano'o can really be absorbed and if it can he can seal the others away and then taijutsu the absorbing one


The Taijutsu one has shown itself fast enough to dodge.
And Susanoo is made of chakra. HG is said to absorb any chakra, regardless of technique or ability


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> you are partially correct. however we are talking about susanos ability to hit not itachis. he wouldnt let preta. but itachi  still isnt a risk taker. he wont risk missles that could kill him when he can block with yatas mirror. and then he absorbs in that opening


Look at it like this, itachi had to know of susano's duribality he was confident a partially completed 1 would block susasno, so if he was confident it could block natrual lightning i dont see why he wouldnt be confident it cant block missles and lasers, also your basicly putting up a choice scenerio correct? so if itachi has full knowledge on preta wouldnt letting preta absorb susano be a bigger risk then attempting to tank missles and lasers.



sanji's left eye said:


> i didnt say it wouldnt be stronger. im saying slower. and the objects are tangible as the blocked attacks/cut through real snakes. and i was more so talking about the extra chakra armor not the items. well while susano would be slower ill take an ultimate defense and a huge sword to make up for it.


 I see what your saying but if your to asumme stronger theres a possibility it will not slow down, it might even get faster because strenght and speed is related, if i have alot of power in my legs i will run faster, if i have alot of power in my arms i can swing faster, the reason why im assuming this is because i highly doubt kishi would make a full power susano be inferior to a weaker version in terms of speed and range.



sanji's left eye said:


> ask away. depends on the speed of both objects. assuming they are the same speed i would say B is harder. however i dont know what this has to do with the discussion at hand.


I said that to say this oro still reacted to scenerio B without getting hit, Why is it that he couldnt react to scenerio A if it was easier? and your right it does depend on the speed thats why i said i believe susasno was to fast for oro to react to.





sanji's left eye said:


> well i think ive seen all of them go on the defensive. note the pain fight against jiraiya and against naruto. hell running from FRS counts as a defensive action.


I have to look at this fight again but i think pein was on the offensive.


sanji's left eye said:


> not really. look at the times i posted where he dodged. in no time was a follow up attack quickly done to attack the pain body again. itachi makes wide swings and always follws through with his attacks. he wouldnt be able to quickly follow up with susano. he would have to use a non MS jutsu as you said. a genjutsu would force him into close range i.e. 5 meters or less. if he did that and lets say he is focuing on human real mfor instance the other 5 realms would attack in that blindspot and hungry ghost would easily absorb. since after all itachi wold have to split his attention 6 ways which would seriously distract him.


When sasuke susano attacked danzo, danzo jumped out of range there for susano couldnt reach him, so sasuke used amatarasu, but itachi has a extra 15 20 foot range with the sword,so danzo or the bodies wont be out of range, see what i mean?

Look at it like this how wide is yamata? yamata was larger then even susasno, So battling something larger i think its only option was to swing wide as it cut multiple heads at once.



sanji's left eye said:


> ok and shunshin will help him how? in fact moving quickly towards a target makes him more open to attacks form all directions


 Itachi can use shushin to move if preta gets to close to him.



Lightysnake said:


> Kunai and Raikiri do not compare to a projectile that crosses an entire mountain range in under a second. And when did Pain 'barely' dodge a Raikiri? Demon Realm easily ducked under it. God Real  dodged it casually, Demon Realm intercepted it.
> 
> And wow, he intercepted an attack from a 12 year old Genin...






So FRS traveld to them in under 1 sec? so in under 1 sec pein can look suprised and then pull another body out the way? all in under 1 second? n pein only avoided raikiri because deva saw it so he knew when exactly to duck with out looking not much of a feat when 1 body can coach the other threw the event


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## MyEyes (Apr 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's in the databook
> 
> 
> The Taijutsu one has shown itself fast enough to dodge.
> And Susanoo is made of chakra. HG is said to absorb any chakra, regardless of technique or ability



databook means shit .
we didn't saw anyweakness because its low stamina so stfu please 
dont talk about the stamina because it was not stated on the manga . no one ever said " ITACHI GOT VERY LOW STAMINA HE IS A NOOB AND WILL LOSE ANY BATTLE JUST BECAUSE THIS "
u dont got really any reasons. just the low stamina.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Look at it like this, itachi had to know of susano's duribality he was confident a partially completed 1 would block susasno, so if he was confident it could block natrual lightning i dont see why he wouldnt be confident it cant block missles and lasers, also your basicly putting up a choice scenerio correct? so if itachi has full knowledge on preta wouldnt letting preta absorb susano be a bigger risk then attempting to tank missles and lasers.


how much was created is unknown. after significant damage is done to susano/user its known that it will revert back. with that in mind itachis susano likely was in a higher form but reverted. and itachis confidence was misplaced as some of the blast got through. and who is to say he will know that its a choice that itachi can foresee? all he will know is that missles/lasers are coming towards him of unknown power. so its a risk no matter what he does but he will block the unknown factor of course.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I see what your saying but if your to asumme stronger theres a possibility it will not slow down, it might even get faster because strenght and speed is related, if i have alot of power in my legs i will run faster, if i have alot of power in my arms i can swing faster, the reason why im assuming this is because i highly doubt kishi would make a full power susano be inferior to a weaker version in terms of speed and range.


strength as in he has the items and strength as in defensive wise. you put on armor your defenses increase and your speed doesnt. your metaphors cant be compared because youre comparing actual biological components while the aspect of susano being discussed is its armor. youre comparing a breastplate with muscles. as i said the comparison doesnt make any sense



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I said that to say this oro still reacted to scenerio B without getting hit, Why is it that he couldnt react to scenerio A if it was easier? and your right it does depend on the speed thats why i said i believe susasno was to fast for oro to react to.


scenario B never occured in the manga to orochimaru. hence an irrelavent proposal. not only that but you neglect to mention that in scenario A orochimaru was distracted. so if both are distracted then they are both irrelavent as orochimaru wasnt at peak reflex performance. it still a fallacy to compare two unlike siutations to come to a baseless conclusion. already told you this though.




Lelouchprince3 said:


> I have to look at this fight again but i think pein was on the offensive.


i dont think ive ever seen a shinobi fight in which 1 shinobi is ONLY on the offensive.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> When sasuke susano attacked danzo, danzo jumped out of range there for susano couldnt reach him, so sasuke used amatarasu, but itachi has a extra 15 20 foot range with the sword,so danzo or the bodies wont be out of range, see what i mean?
> 
> Look at it like this how wide is yamata? yamata was larger then even susasno, So battling something larger i think its only option was to swing wide as it cut multiple heads at once.


its the EXACT same priniciple. the sword would still be aimed at the same place. he didnt outrun the length of the arm he merely moved out the way. not only that but it would even be slower due to swinging a sword and itachis habit of following through. so it would be easier to dodge in fact.

for the 1st head he still swung pretty wide.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Itachi can use shushin to move if preta gets to close to him.


he doesnt have a byakugan. he will be having multiple targets to focus on combined with summons/missles/lasers. as soon as he focuses on anything but hungry ghost it will be done.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> databook means shit .
> we didn't saw anyweakness because its low stamina so stfu please
> dont talk about the stamina because it was not stated on the manga . no one ever said " ITACHI GOT VERY LOW STAMINA HE IS A NOOB AND WILL LOSE ANY BATTLE JUST BECAUSE THIS "
> u dont got really any reasons. just the low stamina.



Oh, gee. He'll lose to the strongest guy in the manga partially because of low stamina. That and he's slower, not as physically strong or durable and Pain makes his three top jutsu worthless


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## MyEyes (Apr 2, 2010)

pain is stronger than itachi but itachi would damage him. and very hard.
and look at the OP its not a normal fight.
itachi got very much advantages and saying he still would lose is ridiculous !
PAIN IS NOT GOD
well maybe he is but a very skilled ninja + knowing his abillites + advantages would pwn him
jirayia too
and minato too
with all these advantages to favor of itachi.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

Strange how Jiraiya died hard against all six bodies and Minato is very unknown.

And how'll ITachi damage him? MS jutsu are worthless


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## MyEyes (Apr 2, 2010)

i saying jirayia would win with advantages like this one and + knowing his abillites
itachi is known as a genius .
he can trick u with a genjutsu and a kage bunshins
he can make the whole fight seem real but it will be just a genjutsu/kage bunshin clones.
he can make exploding bunshins in no time
sasuke with sharingan didn't saw his kage bunshin seals so i dont think pain can .
itachi's hand signs are fastest than anyone in the manga..
and he can use amaterasu in the right time on the right body please dont say that he cant


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> how much was created is unknown. after significant damage is done to susano/user its known that it will revert back. with that in mind itachis susano likely was in a higher form but reverted. and itachis confidence was misplaced as some of the blast got through. and who is to say he will know that its a choice that itachi can foresee? all he will know is that missles/lasers are coming towards him of unknown power. so its a risk no matter what he does but he will block the unknown factor of course.


So he was confident enough to block lightning but he will not block lasers and missles why? and you dont know how itachi would react in this situation who's to say he would even stand still? the op gave him the ability to run and jump with susano, whats to stop him from jumping to the side and blocking with 1 arm and slashing hungry realm with the other? and also show me scans where damage is done to susano or the user n it begins to revert, because to my knowledge it only reverted on itachi because he was dieing , hence running out of life force to give.


sanji's left eye said:


> strength as in he has the items and strength as in defensive wise. you put on armor your defenses increase and your speed doesnt. your metaphors cant be compared because youre comparing actual biological components while the aspect of susano being discussed is its armor. youre comparing a breastplate with muscles


. as i said the comparison makes sense because
 the armor is apart of susano, its not a attachment, it does not put on armor its apart of it, so who's to say it will slow it down?


sanji's left eye said:


> scenario B never occured in the manga to orochimaru. hence an irrelavent proposal. not only that but you neglect to mention that in scenario A orochimaru was distracted. so if both are distracted then they are both irrelavent as orochimaru wasnt at peak reflex performance. it still a fallacy to compare two unlike siutations to come to a baseless conclusion. already told you this though.


He didnt have his hands over his face but he was being pushed back in mid air and still reacted and dodged 


sanji's left eye said:


> i dont think ive ever seen a shinobi fight in which 1 shinobi is ONLY on the offensive.


I never said he will only use offensive i said the majority of his stragety is offensive pein hasnt realy displayed a stragety surrounded by defense, so if he see's susano his intial reaction will not be defense


sanji's left eye said:


> its the EXACT same priniciple. the sword would still be aimed at the same place. he didnt outrun the length of the arm he merely moved out the way. not only that but it would even be slower due to swinging a sword and itachis habit of following through. so it would be easier to dodge in fact.


the sword is spiritual so you still have to prove how swinging a spritual sword would be harder and also danzo evaded like that because he had no other option, how could he outrun something thats fast and covers a certain amount of distance, thats why he jumped, with itachi his sword would cover a even greater distance he will jumped and get tagged.
 Where do we get the word habit from? he only swung wide twice and it was against something wider then susano, i think him opting to stab oro is proof that swinging wide is not a habit and think about it if your attempting to cut multiple large targets would you not follow threw?
for the 1st head he still swung pretty wide.[/QUOTE]
He swung pretty wide but didnt realy follow threw.


sanji's left eye said:


> he doesnt have a byakugan. he will be having multiple targets to focus on combined with summons/missles/lasers. as soon as he focuses on anything but hungry ghost it will be done.



Your forgetting he can run and jump, who's to say he wont run into the missels and lasers head on with the shield and cut the animals along the way?


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> So he was confident enough to block lightning but he will not block lasers and missles why? and you dont know how itachi would react in this situation who's to say he would even stand still? the op gave him the ability to run and jump with susano, whats to stop him from jumping to the side and blocking with 1 arm and slashing hungry realm with the other? and also show me scans where damage is done to susano or the user n it begins to revert, because to my knowledge it only reverted on itachi because he was dieing , hence running out of life force to give.


 it wasnt a matter of confidence. it was a matter of desperation. because itachi has never shown the ability to quickly incorporate his own movements while moving susano to effectively defend and quickly counterattack. the OP gives him movement with susano. nothing more. nothing less. lol he jumps to the side away from missles. meaning that he is focusing on the missles/lasers leaving him nice and open to hungry ghost realm in his blindspot. your entire little scenario involves doing things itachi has never shown to be able to do.


acid reverted him back.


claearly bones are showing ripping it apart. an attack like that from all sides (kirin) would rip it all off





Lelouchprince3 said:


> as i said the comparison makes sense because
> the armor is apart of susano, its not a attachment, it does not put on armor its apart of it, so who's to say it will slow it down?


because susano while being a jutsu is still a being/creature of some kind. note the muscles/bones. hell it was said to be complete after all of the muscles developed. which means the armor is seperate.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> He didnt have his hands over his face but he was being pushed back in mid air and still reacted and dodged


thats not orochimaru.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I never said he will only use offensive i said the majority of his stragety is offensive pein hasnt realy displayed a stragety surrounded by defense, so if he see's susano his intial reaction will not be defense


you said all of that? i dont think so. but it doesnt matter to me. doesnt change the fact that they will still easily dodge.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> the sword is spiritual so you still have to prove how swinging a spritual sword would be harder and also danzo evaded like that because he had no other option, how could he outrun something thats fast and covers a certain amount of distance, thats why he jumped, with itachi his sword would cover a even greater distance he will jumped and get tagged.
> Where do we get the word habit from? he only swung wide twice and it was against something wider then susano, i think him opting to stab oro is proof that swinging wide is not a habit and think about it if your attempting to cut multiple large targets would you not follow threw?
> He swung pretty wide but didnt realy follow threw.


because a sword is still tangible. thus it has mass. thus has weight which will limit movement. not a hard concept. because he has shown to dodge something faster. read the manga. ive posted the scans. dont ignore them please. he would dodge a slower attack. period. he dodged a faster susano attack thus he would dodge itachis attack. you dont swing a baseball as fast as you throw a punch. ducking under the punch equates to being able to duck under the baseball bat. and hell the sword is less wide then the fists. he swung a total of 3 times. 1 was wide at 1 snake head. he swung wide again against 5 heads. he then stabbed against orochimaru. 2/3 times he swung wide. i call that habit as its more often than naught. however one of those times was a singular target.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Your forgetting he can run and jump, who's to say he wont run into the missels and lasers head on with the shield and cut the animals along the way?


he can attack while running? OP doesnt say that nor has that ever been shown. so no he cant do that. and lol as he does that hungry ghost gets him from behind


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

Hey, Lelouch, here's your proof of FRS's speed:


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 2, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> it wasnt a matter of confidence. it was a matter of desperation. because itachi has never shown the ability to quickly incorporate his own movements while moving susano to effectively defend and quickly counterattack. the OP gives him movement with susano. nothing more. nothing less. lol he jumps to the side away from missles. meaning that he is focusing on the missles/lasers leaving him nice and open to hungry ghost realm in his blindspot. your entire little scenario involves doing things itachi has never shown to be able to do.


Idk  i will have to talk to atlantic but i think thats pretty much the point of the op.





sanji's left eye said:


> acid reverted him back.


Karin says he's running out of chakra that could be the reason





sanji's left eye said:


> claearly bones are showing ripping it apart. an attack like that from all sides (kirin) would rip it all off


I dont see what your talkin about sry maybe its just me but i dont see the bones crackingagain it could be due to chakra exaustion


sanji's left eye said:


> because susano while being a jutsu is still a being/creature of some kind. note the muscles/bones. hell it was said to be complete after all of the muscles developed. which means the armor is seperate.


I cant agree i need more solid proof to believe the armor is seperate because the armor comes on like its part of its skin


sanji's left eye said:


> thats not orochimaru.


sry wrong link 


sanji's left eye said:


> you said all of that? i dont think so. but it doesnt matter to me. doesnt change the fact that they will still easily dodge.


i dont believe dodgingg susano is easy but due to itachi's short time with it i can't show you absolute concrete evidence but i believe it will show in upcoming chapters.


sanji's left eye said:


> because a sword is still tangible. thus it has mass. thus has weight which will limit movement. not a hard concept. because he has shown to dodge something faster. read the manga. ive posted the scans. dont ignore them please. he would dodge a slower attack. period. he dodged a faster susano attack thus he would dodge itachis attack. you dont swing a baseball as fast as you throw a punch. ducking under the punch equates to being able to duck under the baseball bat. and hell the sword is less wide then the fists. he swung a total of 3 times. 1 was wide at 1 snake head. he swung wide again against 5 heads. he then stabbed against orochimaru. 2/3 times he swung wide. i call that habit as its more often than naught. however one of those times was a singular target.


I though it could be either spitrual or phsysical like yin and yang atleast thats what the db says on the items. 
Again i dont but i can swing a baseball faster then a 12 year old version of me can punch. Now FRS is fast and they barley dodged but my point is once you dodge the FRS the danger is over. With the sword you will have to constanly dodge all the time now i havent seen a scan or panel that shows pein constiouslly dodgeing something thats 20 feet and moves at a respectable speed..


sanji's left eye said:


> he can attack while running? OP doesnt say that nor has that ever been shown. so no he cant do that. and lol as he does that hungry ghost gets him from behind


I think your underestimating the size of the sword he doesnt have to get extremly close to get in range.

Again i think that was the point of the op but i will ask atlantic
anyways ima continue this with you when i have slightly more information lolz my head is about to explode >.> its hard to defend something that has close to lil information on it, its been kool debating you despite the rocky start we had ima friend request you.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 2, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Idk  i will have to talk to atlantic but i think thats pretty much the point of the op.


Idk. i guess asking atlantic is good.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Karin says he's running out of chakra that could be the reason
> 
> I dont see what your talkin about sry maybe its just me but i dont see the bones cracking


its still due to his all round exhaustion and fighting mizukage was the catalyst.

i mean note the back of susano and how it looks the same as the front. then after the fuuton look at the exposed bones in the back. showing it did get ripped off is what i mean.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I cant agree i need more solid proof to believe the armor is seperate because the armor comes on like its part of its skin


ill just call this a moot point and assume they are even in speed then. it doesnt matter that much anyway.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> sry wrong link



*B. Your body is being physically pushed back and your in a narrow space, meaning you cant move left or right, your hands is over your face to block the dust so basicly its hard to look straight ahead and while your being pushed back a Object about regluar size comes rushing at you?*

this is your description. look at orochimaru. he isnt being pushed back. he jumped back. he doesnt have dirt and crap in his eyes or his hand over his face. and look at his foot placement before the attack reaches him. he is off the bridge. 



Lelouchprince3 said:


> i dont believe dodgingg susano is easy but due to itachi's short time with it i can't show you absolute concrete evidence but i believe it will show in upcoming chapters.


haha i hope so too.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I though it could be either spitrual or phsysical like yin and yang atleast thats what the db says on the items.
> Again i dont but i can swing a baseball faster then a 12 year old version of me can punch. Now FRS is fast and they barley dodged but my point is once you dodge the FRS the danger is over. With the sword you will have to constanly dodge all the time now i havent seen a scan or panel that shows pein constiouslly dodgeing something thats 20 feet and moves at a respectable speed..


true but susano doesnt swing that sword in quick succession.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> I think your underestimating the size of the sword he doesnt have to get extremly close to get in range.


its the size of orchimarus torso in width. the sword width isnt that big. its like the equivelant of a falling building (talking about the sword strike). if you run straight away from a ten story building you may not get away and get crushed. but if you run to the side you can dodge it with far less effort and actually can  get away.



Lelouchprince3 said:


> Again i think that was the point of the op but i will ask atlantic
> 
> anyways ima continue this with you when i have slightly more information lolz my head is about to explode >.> its hard to defend something that has close to lil information on it, its been kool debating you despite the rocky start we had ima friend request you.


ok.

haha aight. try to get your rep up btw. it makes peopel listen to you more. generalizations are common on NF.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 2, 2010)

_When two gods prepare for battle
The sheeple begin to baaah and prattle.
When the unstoppable force rushes towards
the immovable object, this awards
the reader a contradiction of fiction,
A conflict greater than friction!
This merciless conviction rains down
as two unknowns struggle for the crown,
And in the end, when the battle is lost,

The victor stands victor at enormous cost.
Because when two gods wage war
It is by no means their own chore,
But a battle of zealots and crusaders,
Whomever's god is greater is greater!
Thanks to His traitors, raiders, and haters.

So when Itachi drinks in twelve rippled eyes
And when Pain smirks at his opponent's crippled guise
They realize their conflict will end in storms of fire and ash
The man that will die is the first that man that is rash!
Their conclusion may yet be wrapped in red illusion
Or, perhaps, through our own continuous delusion._

- page 1 in Kirābī's diary.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Hey, Lelouch, here's your proof of FRS's speed:



I think you have miss read it, it said 5 seconds b4 he can use shinra tensei correct? then naruto jumped at him and attemped to grab his leg,the 5 secends are up, he then uses shinra tensie to push them down and to get a boast and jump up he grabed there headbands,after he dodged the techniqe he then said 4 seconds left because he just finished using it to dodge. The whole seen didnt happen in 1 second, nice try tho


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

It's official, you have a very hard time reading.

Whenever God Realm uses his pwoers, he has a five second delay before he can use the again.
He uses it on the shuriken and then thinks 'five seconds' left...he's attacked by clones, defeats them and dodges FRS. It smashes into the other side of the crater.
Then? "Four seconds left."
Meaning all that happened in under a second. And in case you're absurdly ignorant, he didn't use Shinra Tensei on the clones. He hit them with his chakra rods


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## MyEyes (Apr 3, 2010)

rofl its just have to be like that..
u dont really think when all the clones jumped on pain it was 2-3 seconds?
all this scene including the rasen shuriken part will be something like a 30 seconds in the anime .. maybe more..


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Maybe. It doesn't change that the manga makes it clear in what time it's occurring in


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's official, you have a very hard time reading.
> 
> Whenever God Realm uses his pwoers, he has a five second delay before he can use the again.
> He uses it on the shuriken and then thinks 'five seconds' left...he's attacked by clones, defeats them and dodges FRS. It smashes into the other side of the crater.
> ...



Official? i didnt see the chakra rods lolz insult my vision and not my reading, anyway nagato was well aware of the FRS b4 he even used ST so it is still false to say he reacted and dodged FRS in under 1 sec because once his shinra tensie didnt work he had about a sec and change to think how he is going to dodge it, i see this much more as reactiveness then a speed feat.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

He used an ST on the FIRST FRS. The second was a shadow shuriken that came right behind it. And no chakra rods?


Hey, what're the black things?

In Pain's hands


Hey, here's the second catching him off guard..





Then all this happens. Pain hits the clones with the rods, leaps and dodges it, it flies over the range and THEN Pain notes 'four seconds left'


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## MyEyes (Apr 3, 2010)

but wait a sec
pain cant see itachi's hand signs..
he can fight with kage bunshins/ genjutsu bunshin ( or whatever it called )
for enough time and then in the right time he will kill with amaterasu atleast 3 bodies
just HG and Tendo will stay alive..
maybe just HG
how can tendo reflect the totsuka blade? he cant counter it
totsuka's blade cut is way faster from tendo's reaction with ST 
he will not sucsess in moving his hand and he will be sealed away.
and get it already
no one can counter itachi's tsukuyomi in a 1v1 battle 
just naruto and killer bee and u know why..
and tendo all alone is pretty useless against itachi's tsukyuomi .
so its HG vs Itachi
Itachi can use taijutsu and then to think on something to kill him oO


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Who says he can't see Itachi's hand signs exactly? Kakashi isn't Pain. Sorry, a weaker Kakashi isn't Pain.
And oh, PLEASE use bunshins. He uses one or two and that's it for his chakra. Use Amaterasu? HG just absorbs it. And Deva can just Shinra Tensei the Totsuka. Given it used ST fine on an FRS.
And Tsukuyomi is useless as the bodies can't feel pain.


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## MyEyes (Apr 3, 2010)

u saw on the sasuke vs itachi fight how much genjutsu bunshins he used and it was not the end of his chakra...
and what makes kakashi weak ? how he excatly got stronger in the time skip ?
the MS ? the kamui would not make a difference he still would lose to a tsukuyomi 
he cant break trough that.
and sorry to tell u but rinnegan cant read the enemy's movements like sharingan does
and even sasuke a bloodlusted sharingan user could not keep up with the speed of his hand signs
even during the shurikens fight he made a kage bunshin 
here is athing that pain cant do .


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He used an ST on the FIRST FRS. The second was a shadow shuriken that came right behind it. And no chakra rods?
> 
> 
> Hey, what're the black things?
> ...


The fact that he was aware of the first FRS and that the next 1 was right behind it indicates he has about 1 second to dodge, for you to say that reacted and dodged FRS in under 1 second is false.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

He was only aware of the second AFTER he dispersed the first.
Pain's thoughts: What?! a shadow shuriken!
Naruto: five seconds elft!
Pain: Five seconds until I can use my powers...

Clones attack, Pain leaps, hitting them, dodging FRS, FRS slams into the other side of the crater. After that?
Pain: four seconds left.

What does that tell you?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He was only aware of the second AFTER he dispersed the first.
> Pain's thoughts: What?! a shadow shuriken!
> Naruto: five seconds elft!
> Pain: Five seconds until I can use my powers...
> ...



lolz so whats naruto tier in the speed department? apparently he can jump and grab peins leg all in under 0.00000000000000343445432 seconds according to your observation


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

You not liking it doesn't make it not true. All that happened in under one second as stated in plain black and white in the manga. Case. Closed.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 3, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> lolz so whats naruto tier in the speed department? apparently he can jump and grab peins leg all in under 0.00000000000000343445432 seconds according to your observation



it all happened in under a second. thats canon


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> it all happened in under a second. thats canon



So naruto must have remarkable speed being able to run n grab somebodys leg all in under 0.0000004787 seconds


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 3, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> So naruto must have remarkable speed being able to run n grab somebodys leg all in under 0.0000004787 seconds


it wasnt never shown suggested or stated to be that fast but merely under a second in time. thats a fact. no need to get upset about it.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Except it came from the opposite direction. It didn't cover the entire mountain


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> it wasnt never shown suggested or stated to be that fast but merely under a second in time. thats a fact. no need to get upset about it.



Im not upset about it at all im pointing that out to show just because pein's feat had a clock or actual time to measure it, doesnt put him over ppl who showned speed feats but didnt have a clock to measure it at the time they did it. Naruto being able to run and jump for peins leg in under a second is proof of that.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 3, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Im not upset about it at all im pointing that out to show just because pein's feat had a clock or actual time to measure it, doesnt put him over ppl who showned speed feats but didnt have a clock to measure it at the time they did it. Naruto being able to run and jump for peins leg in under a second is proof of that.


it sounded to me like you were trying to use a hyperbole to discredit narutos feat with an overexagerration when what happened still happened whether you like it or not. but ok.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 3, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> it sounded to me like you were trying to use a hyperbole to discredit narutos feat with an overexagerration w hen what happened still happened whether you like it or not. but ok.



Nah i was just trying to prove that a bunch of characters could do the same given the right circumstances, at first i was talking with lighty because he see seems to think this feat is greater then anything itachi and sasuke has everdone or is cappable off


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 3, 2010)

my mistake then sir.


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## Mongolia (Apr 4, 2010)

Hello my name is Pain Im a thug, 'cause, I lost my mommy and dady, my best friend and most importand of all, I lost my dog. 
Oh and you are? Yes you're Itachi right? The guy who slaughtered an elite clan on his 13th age, the guy who took out Orochimaru who was praised as one of the legendary Sannin with merely a kunai on the age of 11. 
So how about we fight kay? Im just gonna rush in on you with my cool gravity Jutu's and you're just gonna stand there and get hit by my extremely fast and undodgeable attacks, 'cause you've got a slow ass. if that ain't working you'll cough up blood and die anyway right? Not to mention Im weak against genjutsu which you suck at. Oh and Amaterasu? No problem, I'll just tank it. Oh yea Susano'o eh? I is said that you are totally invincible while using this justu? No problem I'll just stare you to death with my cool eyes while I dodge you're totsuka sword. Not to mention you were the only guy in this anime together with Ridokou who actually choosed their own death and died undefeated.

Madara could've approached Sasuke long ago didn't he? So could Danzo.. Also Itachi threatened Madara not to touch Konoha and guess what? Madara obeyed! [.  And yet Pain was Madara's dog.


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## Enclave (Apr 4, 2010)

I just have to say, once you have to handicap one of the characters so much while at the same time giving the other character every possible advantage you can?

Well, the answer is pretty obvious.  Face it, if you have to handicap Nagato this much just to try to make a fair fight against Itachi?  Perhaps they shouldn't be put up against each other in a vs topic.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

Enclave, that's quite stupid considering that Itachi in almost all Battledome threads is heavily handicapped with blindness, sickness, injury, a desire to be killed, etc. because it goes by manga feats while Nagato fights with a technique that takes hours of preparation, complex machinery, and for him to be positioned somewhere nearby in an elevated location in the Battledome.

If anything, Nagato fans worship a technique that takes much more time, preparation, and situational positioning than Edo Tensei, which is a great deal more powerful than Pein Rikudō  as has been clearly demonstrated. A prepared Orochimaru rapes a prepared Nagato: "Pain." Additionally, a prepared Orochimaru thought himself weaker than an unprepared Itachi.


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## Mei Lin (Apr 4, 2010)

Itachi would genjutsu pain to death easy win. Pain cant detect genjutsus at all apparantly.


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## Enclave (Apr 4, 2010)

Itachi only fights with a handicap at times because people either think he's more hax than he actually is, or put him up against people he shouldn't be put up against.

Additionally, what complex machinery does Nagato require?  Also how does he require hours of prep?

The only thing he does need is a place to hide, and who said it has to be an elevated location?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

He has to be nearby in a elevated location to project the chakra for the Pain bodies to receive. He has to be within specified machinery to do so. He has to find and prepare bodies by inserting small strips of the black substance and storing them in odd mechanical pods. Pein Rikudō requires a _great deal_ of preparation that in all likeliness requires the assistance of Konan in some areas as we see her tending Nagato while he transmits chakra. 

We'll soon see what an unprepared Nagato can do and what a healthy, bloodlusted Itachi is capable of so please don't look too proud up on your high horse because a heavily prepared Nagato can defeat a heavily handicapped Itachi who had also consequently just simultaneously defeated Naruto while giving him power to defeat a foe that will in all likeliness prove stronger than even Pein Rikudō.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

lol @ talking as if it's unfair for nagato to " prep " pain. that's like doing the same for sasori and puppets, or someone signing a contract for summoning, or even minato using his special kunai.

it doesn't matter if he has too, that's nagato's fighting style. if you want to go that far lets do the same for itachi since he had to " prep" the legendary weapons to his susanoo.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

I was merely addressing the complaints of awarding someone advantages and someone else disadvantages in a match where one of the combatants is the most handicapped power in the manga where as the other has had huge preparation for an ambush. Pein Rikudō easily outmatches Edo Tensei in time and energy spent beforehand.



Enclave said:


> I just have to say, once you have to handicap one of the characters so much while at the same time giving the other character every possible advantage you can? Well, the answer is pretty obvious.  Face it, if you have to handicap Nagato this much just to try to make a fair fight against Itachi?  Perhaps they shouldn't be put up against each other in a vs topic.



It just seemed ridiculous given each character.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

where is your proof?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

Proof of Itachi being handicapped or proof of Pein Rikudō requiring preparation? Do I _really_ have to find scans for you to demonstrate either of those? I'm just pointing out that Pein Rikudō shouldn't complain about Itachi having advantages given the situations of each within the manga.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

i know each situation  is true, i was asking for proof that edo tensei takes less prep than pain rikudo.


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> Enclave, that's quite stupid considering that Itachi in almost all Battledome threads is heavily handicapped with blindness, sickness, injury, a desire to be killed, etc. because it goes by manga feats while Nagato fights with a technique that takes hours of preparation, complex machinery, and for him to be positioned somewhere nearby in an elevated location in the Battledome.


Nagato fights as a cripple who cannot move, so I don?t see the problem of having Itachi fight while sick. It?s not our fault that a cripple Nagato has better feats than Itachi. Using prime Nagato, or a non sick Itachi won?t get us anywhere because we?ve never seen them fight. 


> If anything, Nagato fans worship a technique that takes much more time, preparation, and situational positioning than Edo Tensei, which is a great deal more powerful than Pein Rikudō  as has been clearly demonstrated. A prepared Orochimaru rapes a prepared Nagato: "Pain." Additionally, a prepared Orochimaru thought himself weaker than an unprepared Itachi.


Translation:
 ?Pain is so much stronger than my favourite character that I have to find a way to underrate him.?

And why do you feel like bringing Orochimaru into this? A prepared Orochimaru (5 edo tensei bodies if you will) vs a prepared Nagato ends up like this:

Find me a better technique to get rid of the edo tensei bodies and we?ll talk, I?ll be waiting. And if you think Genzou Mazu isn?t any good to deal with Edo Tensei, then nothing is.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

_"I don't have proof Nagato wasn't in his prime so I'll just deflect his accurate points concerning advantageous preparation by calling him a crying Itachi fan before rationalizing how we can't speculate on the full power of either character, which is consequently a less articulate repetition of what he stated earlier about seeing the two Edo Tensei incarnations do battle for the first time as healthy, unprepared Dōjutsu users. I'm also going to pretend that Gedō Mazō could solo all of Akatsuki."_


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## Enclave (Apr 4, 2010)

Sorry but you failed the moment you considered standard equipment to be prep.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 4, 2010)

ZE said:


> Nagato fights as a cripple who cannot move, so I don?t see the problem of having Itachi fight while sick. It?s not our fault that a cripple Nagato has better feats than Itachi. Using prime Nagato, or a non sick Itachi won?t get us anywhere because we?ve never seen them fight.
> 
> Translation:
> ?Pain is so much stronger than my favourite character that I have to find a way to underrate him.?
> ...



Actually not, a prepared Oro vs prepared nagato ends with nagato crippled and screaming of Pain vs 6 kage level ninja who used shunshin to escape this poor attempt


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

only if they are shunshing in the opposite direction lol.

by the way, haven't seen  you in a while godtachi


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> _"I don't have proof Nagato wasn't in his prime so I'll just deflect his accurate points concerning advantageous preparation by calling him a crying Itachi fan before rationalizing how we can't speculate on the full power of either character, which is consequently a less articulate repetition of what he stated earlier about seeing the two Edo Tensei incarnations do battle for the first time as healthy, unprepared Dōjutsu users."_



The fact that Nagato (who was said to be RS's reincarnation) couldn’t move is proof enough that he wasn’t in his prime. Nor have we seen everything he could do, which didn’t happen in Itachi’s case. Itachi showed his best jutsus.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

He couldn't move because he was waist deep in machinery for his technique.



Inu said:


> i know each situation  is true, i was asking for proof that edo tensei takes less prep than pain rikudo.



I would think that because Edo Tensei requires only a sacrifice and an optional seal it requires less preparation than Pein Rikudō, which requires a sacrifice, inserting metallic strips in to said sacrifice, finding a nearby, elevated location beforehand, and using machinery to transmit chakra and consciousness. Again, I'm not trying to upset Nagato fans, I'm merely pointing out that Pein Rikudō is the result of careful planning and positioning.


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Actually not, a prepared Oro vs prepared nagato ends with nagato crippled and screaming of Pain vs 6 kage level ninja who used shunshin to escape this poor attempt



Are you using manga evidence? If so, then Nagato wins. If the six zombies you?re talking about use shushin to run away like Hanzou did, then Nagato wins. Running for your like won?t give you the victory. 

Hanzou, a guy strong enough to beat the sannin without a scratch on his body, deemed impossible to beat cripple Nagato after he saw Genzou Mazou. I mean, Nagato?s state was degrading, he could barely stand, yet, Hanzou run away. If you are not stronger than Hanzou, you have no chance.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

Gedō Mazō killing a handful of fodder and causing an unknown power to retreat while also stabbing Nagato full of metallic rods and seemingly turning it in to a lifeless statue doensn't qualify it to solo all of Akatsuki. I personally believe Susano'o is a solid counter for Gedō Mazō or any agile shinobi, really. It's Susano'o with less speed feats, less defensive feats, and less hype.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 4, 2010)

ZE said:


> Are you using manga evidence? If so, then Nagato wins. If the six zombies you?re talking about use shushin to run away like Hanzou did, then Nagato wins. Running for your like won?t give you the victory.
> 
> Hanzou, a guy strong enough to beat the sannin without a scratch on his body, deemed impossible to beat cripple Nagato after he saw Genzou Mazou. I mean, Nagato?s state was degrading, he could barely stand, yet, Hanzou run away. If you are not stronger than Hanzou, you have no chance.



You forgot to say that the sannin were yooun and probably didn't have thei best techniques yet....

Gedo Mazo doesn't last a lot of time and is easily avoidable! shunshin, LAC for Oro, Susano'o for itachi....only fodders would fall for it...


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

can any of you prove how 9 of those enourmous dragon heads are easily avoidable? especially if it's focused on one target.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

No one said they're easily avoidable, but I certainly don't believe they would solo Akatsuki or Kages resurrected. It's far more likely that it would be countered with Ninjutsu before it caused any major casualties or that the immobilized Nagato would himself become an easier target.


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

godtachi said:


> You forgot to say that the sannin were yooun and probably didn't have thei best techniques yet....
> 
> Gedo Mazo doesn't last a lot of time and is easily avoidable! shunshin, LAC for Oro, Susano'o for itachi....only fodders would fall for it...



Hazou also knew shushin, but apparently, he only used it to run away, not to kill someone who could barely fight back. It’s like having Genzou Mazou protecting a baby and your mission is to kill the baby. Hanzou seemed to think it wasn’t possible. 

And Genzou Mazou works on people with a soul. Fodders have soul, that's true, but so do non fodder characters. Nothing you say will change the fact that it is the best jutsu to beat Edo Tensei.  

Sandaime beat Edo Tensei with soul removal jutsus that weren't much different from Pain's.



Selim said:


> It's far more likely that it would be crushed with Ninjutsu before it caused any major casualties



Problem is, you'll have to get close. And if you get close, you'll be touched. And if you're touched, you die.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

how so? look at the huge AOE it has, and they aren't slow either. why wouldn't it be able to beat akatsuki, or dumb zombies when it forced a kage level ninja to flee? it's stronger than you think.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

_Hanzō v Itachi, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Nagato, & Kabuto v Gedō Mazō
Hanzō v Hashirama, Tobirama, & Orochimaru v Gedō Mazō_

Hanzō is the weakest name up there. How he handles Gedō Mazō won't be how the others handle it; he seemed to be more cautious than afraid, and then he also doesn't have the backup that Edo Tensei provides.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 4, 2010)

ZE said:


> Hazou also knew shushin, but apparently, he only used it to run away, not to kill someone who could barely fight back. It?s like having Genzou Mazou protecting a baby and your mission is to kill the baby. Hanzou seemed to think it wasn?t possible.
> 
> And Genzou Mazou works on people with a soul. Fodders have soul, that's true, but so do non fodder characters. Nothing you say will change the fact that it is the best jutsu to beat Edo Tensei.
> 
> Sandaime beat Edo Tensei with soul removal jutsus that weren't much different from Pain's.


But unlike Danzou, those ET bodies have other ways of evading this jutsu....


But i agree with you that it's the best  jutsu to deal with ET


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> You're still drawing a faulty comparison:
> 
> _Hanzō v Itachi, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, and Nagato
> Hanzō v Hashirama, Tobirama, and Orochimaru._
> ...



We?ve seen someone beating Edo Tensei before. And possibly the strongest Edo Tensei ever. Shodai, Nindaime and Yondaime. One was stopped even before he could come out. The others were killed when Sandaime grabbed them and pulled their soul, not unlike what Pain does with Human Realm and Hell Realm.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

But that Edo Tensei was toying with the Saindaime Hokage.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> _Hanzō v Itachi, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Nagato, & Kabuto v Gedō Mazō
> Hanzō v Hashirama, Tobirama, & Orochimaru v Gedō Mazō_
> 
> Hanzō is the weakest name up there. How he handles Gedō Mazō won't be how the others handle it; he seemed to be more cautious than afraid, and then he also doesn't have the backup that Edo Tensei provides.


imo the ET summons would be beaten by gedo mazo, along with most akatsuki memebers.

i don't see how they can keep dodging something that big  and get close enough to stop nagato.

you can call hanzou the weakest up there, but don't forget even jiraiya thought he couln't be beaten by one man. and not only that but he beat all three sanin at once.

he's no push over.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

Is Nagato fit to dodge or deflect Satetsu and Amaterasu in that position, Inu? And how am I arguing that Edo Tensei is superior to Gedō Mazō when Edo Tensei summoned Nagato himself?


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

satetsu( may ) and amaterasu can be absorbed (based on what we know), and itachi would need to get into close range for amaterasu anyway ( which he can't or he gets soul sucked ).

furthermore ET summons are dumbed down from what we have seen. if hiruzen can grab them in the dark, i see no reason a much more deadly jutsu wouldn't, that will just follow the target.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

As I stated before, the summons were ordered to toy with Hiruzen. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether Nagato can defeat his zombie counterpart along with the rest of Akatsuki or a legendary Sannin with three legendary Hokages at his back.


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## ? (Apr 4, 2010)

you may have a point, but from everybody we have seen, nagato without a doubt has the best chance at winning this kind of fight. he at least has a chance, i don't think it would be a stomp like you said it would be.


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## ZE (Apr 4, 2010)

There is a difference in difficulty between trying to beat someone and doing it without being touched once. Against Genzou Mazou you can’t be touched. Hanzou’s decision was the correct one. No one can possibly be successful with such an handicap. Maybe Deidara, but that depends on the range of the dragons that come out of Genzou Mazou’s mouth.


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## Mongolia (Apr 5, 2010)

ZE said:


> There is a difference in difficulty between trying to beat someone and doing it without being touched once. Against Genzou Mazou you can?t be touched. Hanzou?s decision was the correct one. No one can possibly be successful with such an handicap. Maybe Deidara, but that depends on the range of the dragons that come out of Genzou Mazou?s mouth.



It's called Susanoo combined with the yata mirror and the sword of totsuka which makes the user "totally invincible".



YataNoKagami said:


> Hello my name is Pain Im a thug, 'cause, I lost my mommy and day, my best friend and most importand of all, I lost my dog.
> Oh and you are? Yes you're Itachi right? The guy who slaughtered an elite clan on his 13th age, the guy who took out Orochimaru who was praised as one of the legendary Sannin with merely a kunai on the age of 11.
> So how about we fight kay? Im just gonna rush in on you with my cool gravity Jutu's and you're just gonna stand there and get hit by my extremely fast and undodgeable attacks, 'cause you've got a slow ass. if that ain't working you'll cough up blood and die anyway right? Not to mention Im weak against genjutsu which you suck at. Oh and Amaterasu? No problem, I'll just tank it. Oh yea Susano'o eh? I is said that you are totally invincible while using this justu? No problem I'll just stare you to death with my cool eyes while I dodge you're totsuka sword. Not to mention you were the only guy in this anime together with Ridokou who actually choosed their own death and died undefeated.
> 
> Madara could've approached Sasuke long ago didn't he? So could Danzo.. Also Itachi threatened Madara not to touch Konoha and guess what? Madara obeyed! [.  And yet Pain was Madara's dog.



For me this is enough evidence about the statement Itachi > Pain.

Conclusion.

Pain has showed his true power and died an unexpected death
Itachi has never showed his true power and died undefeated and perfectly planned.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 5, 2010)

ZE said:


> There is a difference in difficulty between trying to beat someone and doing it without being touched once. Against Genzou Mazou you can?t be touched. Hanzou?s decision was the correct one. No one can possibly be successful with such an handicap. Maybe Deidara, but that depends on the range of the dragons that come out of Genzou Mazou?s mouth.



Oro with LAC says hi...

Madara says hi

Anyone with  great speed says: double hi


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

I love how the idea Madara not attacking Konoha is evidence he was 'afraid' of Itachi...not like Itachi could have blown the lid off his secrets and plans. Nope, it had to be his power. And when was Pain shown to be afraid of Madara? They had an alliance and both knew their goals differed, accoding to the fanbook so a confrontation would've been ultimately inevitable.
Explain Konan and Madara getting into verbal arguments if that's the case. Pain is not the type to care if he's mocked. He showed no issue with Hidan outright threatening him in front of the entire group, does Hidan>Pain now?
The manga said Pain's the top in Akatsuki. His abilities shown>Itachi by a good amount. And maybe Yata no Kagami should look at Pain's own databook profile where it's said the reason reason the others follow Pain is his charisma and his power exceeding all of them...and, oh, yeah, that he alone of the Akatsuki cna boast 'invincibility' if we want to play that game


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

Itachi has yatas mirror, he's totally  invincible.

I think that's enough information to know who'd win.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

Sasuke is protected and Konoha has yet to be decimated by Madara. The manga is far from over, and you won't convince anyone that Pein Rikudō is faster than Itachi. They charge pretty quickly, but they don't move like Minato or Itachi, and they don't have the databook stats to back up your point yet anyways.

Chibaku Tensei is a technique that Nagato would be hardpressed to land on Itachi. Please don't call other people fanboys when you can't seem to see both sides of the coin yourself. A healthy Itachi has the hype to defeat Nagato or at least has a very strong chance. Both techniques were stated to be invincible.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Oh, look, the mythical 'healthy Itachi' again. All he is? A creation of Itachi fans. All he has is 'hype.' Well, unfortunately, his speed and movesets don't change, nor does his chakra pool, or ninjutsu, or strength.

And yes, most of the Pain bodies are faster than Itachi, given their own speed feats with the FRS. Which kind of DOES back up my point. And they can keep up with sage Mode Jiraiya no less.

And please tell us how a technique that sucks up a large mountain range will be 'hard pressed' to land on Itachi. Does his Sharingan let him resist gravity? Kind of hard to run away while you're being sucked up.

And Sasuke is 'protected?' He's a raving psycho killer. Konoha has yet to be devastated by Madara? True....but I don't think Itachi'd be happy to know the village was destroyed by somebody ELSE


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

The manga clearly states:

Itachi is totally invincible.
Madara is immortal invincible.
Pain is just  invincible

So do the math


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Wanna play that game? Itachi needs a technique to become invincible. A technique Pain can drain
And Kakuzu already said it himself: There is no such thing as a true immortal


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, look, the mythical 'healthy Itachi' again. All he has is 'hype.'


-snip-



Lightysnake said:


> Well, unfortunately, his speed and movesets don't change, nor does his chakra pool, or ninjutsu, or strength.



You don't know that, obviously.



Lightysnake said:


> And yes, most of the Pain bodies are faster than Itachi, given their own speed feats with the FRS. Which kind of DOES back up my point.



A misconception that Outer Path (who pointed the FRS feat out) agrees with.



Lightysnake said:


> And please tell us how a technique that sucks up a large mountain range will be 'hard pressed' to land on Itachi.



He needs to be alone and to run away. Itachi's techniques are faster.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Wanna play that game? Itachi needs a technique to become *totally* invincible. A technique Pain can drain
> And Kakuzu already said it himself: There is no such thing as a true immortal



Pain is jutsu used by Nagato


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Wanna play that game? Itachi needs a technique to become invincible.



Pain is a technique that takes quite a bit of preparation compared to Susano'o.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> -snip-
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know that, obviously.


yeah, based on? He's got a 5 in speed, a 3.5 in strength and a 2.5 in stamina. Case. Closed.

When did Zetsu ever say "Itachi could've totally soloed Pain himself" anyways?




> A misconception that Outer Path (who pointed the FRS feat out) agrees with.


Oh, look. Logical fallacy. "Well, THIS guy agreed so, err..."




> He needs to be alone and to run away. Itachi's techniques are faster.



Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot Itachi can just teleport. Not a single technique of his lets him avoid being sucked up by gravity, nor warp out of an entire mountain range of distance. As usual, the Itachi defense is "Cuz he's Itachi so he can."

Tell me, how exactly will he be running away from something with that wide a range?



sasuke uciha boy said:


> Pain is jutsu used by Nagato




Pain is an alias for Nagato, dear.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

totally invincible>invincible


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, look. Logical fallacy. "Well, THIS guy agreed so, err..."



You're using *his* broken argument, which he has since recanted. I've explained why it's wrong, he admits it's wrong, you're upholding a belief system that the creator of the belief has acknowledged isn't in any way absolute. The fallacy is on your end for not understanding someone else's theory or the problems.



Lightysnake said:


> yeah, based on? He's got a 5 in speed, a 3.5 in strength and a 2.5 in stamina. Case. Closed.



Zetsu says he was much more powerful. What are you arguing about?



Lightysnake said:


> Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot Itachi can just teleport.



No, but    hold the greatest resemblance to 



Lightysnake said:


> Tell me, how exactly will he be running away from something with that wide a range?



Deva will be  to  He'll  before then.



Lightysnake said:


> Pain is an alias for Nagato, dear.



-snip- Pein Rikudō is a jutsu requiring massive preparation.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> You're using *his* broken argument, which he has since recanted. I've explained why it's wrong, he admits it's wrong, you're upholding a belief system that the creator of the belief has acknowledged isn't in any way absolute.


Hey, newsflash, Solly, you are not the be all end all. If Outer Path recanted on this argument, then he was wrong to do so



> Zetsu says he was much more powerful. What are you arguing about?


etsu was referring to him being slower than normal and being weird during the fight. It hardly changes that stats tend to reflect actual abilities and at no point did Zetsu ever say Itachi>Pain



> No, but    hold the greatest resemblance to


Look up the Water Body Flicker Illusion technique in the second databook. Especially as *Kisame was using the same one*
I also like how Itachi uses bunshin feints=pure speed now. Especially when Kakashi already surprised him there and intercepted Kisame's jutsu




> Deva will be running away to set it up. He'll be hit before then.


Itachi has to keep up with him-unlikely. And then there's the tiny, yet ever so crucial detail that, you know, it depends only on how far away Nagato is. It doesn't have to close at all.
If he gets CT off, does Itachi's fabulous ponytail just reflect it or does he die?

Why is it that when Itachi's only victories are over people who ended up improving over time, people slobber all over him?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

"Itachi should have been much more stronger than this" ≠ "He was slower"

This is just desperation now. And lol at Amaterasu or Itachi not catching Deva.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Sasuke was able to keep ahead of it for a time. The Raikage dodged it. Bee subbed out of it. What prevents Deva from dispersing it with Shinra Tensei, Itachi's flowing hair and dreamy good looks? If Deva, while Nagato is severely weakened, can dodge the mountain range clearing FRS at close range, how on earth will he have an issue? He can just throw a Shinra Tensei at the Amaterasu and Itachi at the same time

Oh, that's right. Absolutely nothing prevents this


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

lol @ Deva Path having shunshin feats anything close to Ē or Sasuke.

What's stopping Deva from being trapped in Genjutsu?


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## ZE (Apr 5, 2010)

YataNoKagami said:


> And we're talking in terms of combat Itachi vs Pain so tell me where Pain showed any abilities to overcome Itachi's?


Genjutsu- Multiple bodies. 
Amateratsu- Absorbed or repelled. 
Susanoo- Absorbed or Chibaku Tensei.
Susanoo’s sword- Shinra Tensei.

Strength advantage goes to Pain (Asura and Human Realm).
Taijutsu advantage goes to Pain (Six bodies + shared vision).
Stamina goes to pain. 

Pain is like a machine who was built to fight Itachi, he has a counter to every move of his. 



godtachi said:


> Oro with LAC says hi...


Genzou Mazou’s dragons go through physical things, the ground is no exception. And Pain can see chakra, he’ll know where Oro is.   


> Madara says hi


Unless Madara’s soul is not there when he’s intangible, he’ll also die because Genzou Mazou does not attack his body, but his soul. And for Madara’s soul to not be there, it means he’s in another place controlling a ghost that looks like him. But that does not seem to be the case. If he’s there, his soul is also there. 


> Anyone with  great speed says: double hi



That’s a very weak argument we can use to counter any other jutsu. Susanoo? Just keep avoiding the sword, the susanoo user will die sooner or later of exhaustion. See what I did? 

Someone with great speed will still need to kill Genzou Mazou before he’s touched, it doesn’t change anything. What will Raikage do? Power bomb Genzou Mazou? 



Selim said:


> "He should have been much more powerful than this" ≠ "He was slower"
> 
> This is just desperation now. And lol at Amaterasu not catching Deva.



And lol at Deva not using shinra tensei when Itachi uses Amateratsu on him. You guys really like to forget things to favour your characters, and that's not cool at all. And Pain doesn't need to use CT until Itachi uses Susanoo, and when Itachi uses Susanoo he won't have the chakra to use anything else.


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## Rampage (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sasuke was able to keep ahead of it for a time. The Raikage dodged it. Bee subbed out of it. What prevents Deva from dispersing it with Shinra Tensei, Itachi's flowing hair and dreamy good looks? If Deva, while Nagato is severely weakened, can dodge the mountain range clearing FRS at close range, how on earth will he have an issue? He can just throw a Shinra Tensei at the Amaterasu and Itachi at the same time
> 
> Oh, that's right. Absolutely nothing prevents this



So if Deva uses ST to defend from Ama, what happens in the 5 second cool down? Does he not get engulfed by Ama?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

When Itachi uses Susano'o he will be out of chakra? Doubtful. If Deva is the only one standing he is going to be assaulted by Genjutsu, Susano'o, Amaterasu, clones, and a faster opponent. Itachi is far better suited for one on one battles.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> lol @ Deva Path having shunshin feats anything close to Ē or Sasuke.
> 
> What's stopping Deva from being trapped in Genjutsu?



Erm...dodging all three Gamas at once and the FRS at close range? The FRS clearing the entirety of the Chibaku Tensei mountain range in under a second? 

And a simple Sharingan Genjutsu working on Deva? Frog Song only worked because it freezes the nerves as well as the mind. Itachi's genjutsu only targets the mind. Meaning Nagato will just keep the bodies moving regardless. He should be able to act as their 'partner' like any Bijuu



> When Itachi uses Susano'o he'll be out of chakra? Is this part 2 Itachi? If Deva is the only one standing he is going to be gangraped by Genjutsu, Susano'o, Amaterasu, clones, and a faster opponent. Itachi is a much better 1v1 fighter than Deva Path.



Susanoo wrecks ITachi to use regardless. Sharingan's regular genjutsu isn't going to touch a stronger opponent with superior eyes when both other eyes have Genjutsu properties-given Ao talks about his own eye breaking the Genjutsu on the Yondaime Mizukage.

Susanoo...ooooh, scary! Chibaku Tensei. Amaterasu? Dodged or repelled. Clones? PLEASE divide up your chakra, Itachi. What's he going to do, blow them up next to the guy who survived the Six Tails' meancing ball three feet from his head?

Faster? Itachi has no speed feats to compare to Deva's dodging the attacks of three Gamas at once or dodging an FRS at close range.

Funny how most of his 'speed' you cited was just clone feinting and ignoring Kakashi's own speed feat there. And Kakashi clashing with him just fine post time skip


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## Extasee (Apr 5, 2010)

Itachi acted on equal footing with Jiriya back when he was well, and since we all know how the Pein vs Jiriya fight turned out, I'd say that Pein would have to take this one. Plus, sharingan probably doesn't work on the rinnengan. I'm not sure you can see magnetic force...Speaking of which, what's their intellegence on each other? Full IC? I'd still say Pein.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

The FRS feat is a misconception & all Genjutsu targets the nervous system


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Uzumaki Lee said:


> So if Deva uses ST to defend from Ama, what happens in the 5 second cool down? Does he not get engulfed by Ama?



Are we totally forgetting Itachi's low stamina makes him incapable of spamming moves like that? A full on ST will hit the Ama as well as Itachi himself no less, blowing him back


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## ZE (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> When Itachi uses Susano'o he will be out of chakra? Doubtful. If Deva is the only one standing he is going to be gangraped by Genjutsu, Susano'o, Amaterasu, clones, and a faster opponent. Itachi is far better suited for one on one battles.



If Deva is the only one standing, it means Itachi has barely any chakra to use such jutsus. He'll have to use Susanoo or else this is a walk in a park for Pain. Itachi cannot compete with Pain without Susanoo.



Uzumaki Lee said:


> So if Deva uses ST to defend from Ama, what happens in the 5 second cool down? Does he not get engulfed by Ama?



Itachi would have to focus again on Deva and use another amateratsu on him or move the same amateratsu towards Deva, it's enough time for Deva to recharge.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> The FRS feat is a misconception. & all Genjutsu targets the nervous system


"I say it. IT MUST BE TRUE." for part one, huh? 

And yes, great work targetting the nervous system of a basic vegetable. You might as well try to genjutsu Sasori's puppets for all the good it'll do you. Nagato can still have GR throw out an omnidirectional ST


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

> If Deva is the only one standing, it means Itachi has barely any chakra to use such jutsus. He'll have to use Susanoo or else this is a walk in a park for Pain. Itachi cannot compete with Pain without Susanoo.



I agree, but to say he wouldn't be able to use other jutsu is a stretch. In fact, I think it's a stretch Deva would the last one standing considering he's a defensive body with a very real weakness and in this scenario he is powerless in the beginning to boot.



Lightysnake said:


> And yes, great work targetting the nervous system of a basic vegetable. You might as well try to genjutsu Sasori's puppets for all the good it'll do you.



Great  , I'm debating with someone who believes vegetables and puppets have nervous systems.


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## ZE (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> I agree, but to say he wouldn't be able to use other jutsu is a stretch. In fact, I think it's a stretch Deva would the last one standing.



He's the hardest one to kill thanks to Shinra Tensei. For example, I don't see how Susanoo would touch him.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

How about use any MS jutsu? What else is Itachi going to use, a water dragon or fireball?


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## Rampage (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Are we totally forgetting Itachi's low stamina makes him incapable of spamming moves like that? A full on ST will hit the Ama as well as Itachi himself no less, blowing him back



What are you talking about? An ST blows things back, why would it put Ama out?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Uzumaki Lee said:


> What are you talking about? An ST blows things back, why would it put Ama out?



It has shown the ability to disperse Jutsu. Kakashi's Raiton wolf and the FRS. Amaterasu is merely a very, very powerful fire attack, there's no reason it wouldn't be dispersed same as any other jutus hit with the ST


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

ZE said:


> He's the hardest one to kill thanks to Shinra Tensei. For example, I don't see how Susanoo would touch him.



For starters, he's disabled for three minutes in this scenario. Susano'o shield might also reflect Shinra Tensei like Naruto did as it has been stated to reflect all attacks. He might be the hardest to kill, but he's also a defensive body and a high priority target. Additionally, he's the most helpless in this scenario.


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## ZE (Apr 5, 2010)

Uzumaki Lee said:


> What are you talking about? An ST blows things back, why would it put Ama out?



I already answered your doubt:
Itachi would have to focus again on Deva and use another amateratsu on him or move the same amateratsu towards Deva, it's enough time for Deva to recharge.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Not if he just targets Itachi himself. And then HG will just be munching down on Susanoo or Demon Realm is busting it open


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

The mirror reflects all jutsu though. 

Including the jutsu of Preta and Deva and Asura.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

No, it reflexts all ATTACKS and that was proven false when Kirin busted through.
Deva's attacks can be used to specifically target a person, bypassing the mirror completely. Preta's technique is a defensive one and noted to absorb all techniques, regardless of defenses or chakra type. Susanoo is drained by Preta right quick


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## ZE (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> For starters, he's disabled for three minutes in this scenario. Susano'o shield might also reflect Shinra Tensei like Naruto did as it has been stated to reflect all attacks. He might be the hardest to kill, but he's also a defensive body and a high priority target. Additionally, he's the most helpless in this scenario.



Yeah, but Deva will still survive and be thrown away, and that will give him the perfect opportunity to use CT. If anyone turns ST against him, Deva will still live, Shinra Tensei will always keep him alive, even if it?s repelled.  

And even though he's helpless here, he has the other bodies to protect him. Animal Realm can just summon one of his animals and let Deva hide inside its mouth.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

Susanoo
1.It makes Itachi tottaly invincible.
2.It has a heavenly shield that blocks/reflects all attacks.
3.It has a heavenly blade that not only is spiritual (therefor it can't be broken) it absorbs and cuts anything.

1.The main path: the repulse justsu he does would grudge with susano'o's shield and fade, the planet jutsu would get absorbes by the susano'o's sword.

2.Animal path: all those summonings would get absorbed

3:The mechanical path w/3 heads: All those weaponary attacks would get blocked by the shield.

4.The long haired path that reads minds and takes souls: cant touch itaachi to take his soul because of Susano'o.

5.The thicker path that absorbs justus: This one could be the only posible threat seeing as i dont know if susano'o can be absorbed, i do beleive that susano'os sword wold absorb the absorber.In other topic it was said that this path can't absord Susano'o.

6: The path that summons the head out the ground that takes souls: that head would get reflected by the shield.

So the guy who is tottaly invincible and none's cat wins.


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## Soul (Apr 5, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, right. Orochimaru couldn't even hope to beat the three bodies that Jiraiya beat.



Are you serious?

Orochimaru with prep time versus the 3 first bodies with what they showed versus Jiraiya?
Orochimaru should win without difficulties.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 5, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Orochimaru with prep time versus the 3 first bodies with what they showed versus Jiraiya?
> Orochimaru should win without difficulties.



edo tensei ftw


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Human Realm makes Edo Tensei effectively worthless. Plus, Oro is slower and less skilled in close quarters than Jiraiya. Human Realm also makes Orochimaru himself...well, screwed


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## Soul (Apr 5, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> edo tensei ftw



Indeed Sanji.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

How is Edo Tensei that effective against a guy who can rip your soul out by physical contact? Remember Hiruzen was able to keep up with the zombies and he has a 3 in speed in his old age


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## Soul (Apr 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> How is Edo Tensei that effective against a guy who can rip your soul out by physical contact? Remember Hiruzen was able to keep up with the zombies and he has a 3 in speed in his old age



Why do they get their feats from their second fight?

Also, see the "darkness Genjutsu". That would give Orochimaru an advantage.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 5, 2010)

interesting. human can do that... yall should make a thread. due to orchimarus use of edo tensei in the past pain getting an opening for a soul suck actually seems plausible. yeah thats an interesting thread idea...


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

That might not work too well against people who can see chakra anyways. Tobirama's techniques with ET are negated completed by HG...Mokuton is debatable there, but HG could likely suck the chakra right out. If HG gets a hand on any of them, that's it


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## Sadgoob (Apr 5, 2010)

Hashirama alone would stomp those three paths. In fact, any Hokage and any Sannin with preparation would defeat those three. Orochimaru with three Hokages rapes them sideways. The only reason Itachi even has a chance is because he has a few minutes of invulnerability with Susano'o and a host of ridiculously powerful techniques to use.



ZE said:


> Yeah, but Deva will still survive and be thrown away, and that will give him the perfect opportunity to use CT. If anyone turns ST against him, Deva will still live, Shinra Tensei will always keep him alive, even if it’s repelled.



If he survives this could happen, but Nagato didn't behave this way before...


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