# Could Healthy Itachi with full knowledge defeat Obito?



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Dec 12, 2018)

Thoughts?


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

Best case scenario he pulls a Konan and kills Obito thanks to a ton of knowledge and prep then still dies by a stab thru the back from a rusty pipe after Izanagi

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 12, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> the back from a rusty pipe after Izanagi


Why wouldnot itachi think that legendary Uchiha Madara would    have izanagi?


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## Katou (Dec 12, 2018)

yes..

ofc with full knowledge ~ he knows what he's up against and his full capabilities...
he's not gonna do stupid shit


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## JuicyG (Dec 12, 2018)

No. Even with knowledge, prep and health, what can itachi actually do?


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2018)

If he had prep to go with the full knowledge then sure

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## Troyse22 (Dec 12, 2018)

Possibly with prep and knowledge

Not under neutral circumstances/random encounter though...never.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

He still just Wouldn’t be able to hit him at all. I was thinking Maybe if we give itachi a koto wielding crow he could win. Even than Obito is very intelligent and his stamina reserves are massive in comparison to itachi’s.


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## Stonaem (Dec 12, 2018)

I have sick Itachi beating Tobito

Kamui mechanics lose out to Amaterasu
Izanami beats Izanagi
It's a toss up between Tsukiyomi and Hashi-boosted genjutsu


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## Sapherosth (Dec 12, 2018)

Susano activation stops any Kamui sucking attempts. 

Izanami counters his Izanagi and if Obito tries to suck Itachi into boxland more than once he can just activate izanami.

Sucking into boxland requires Obito to touch Itachi. What happens when you do that? Izanami. There's no way Obito can suck Itachi into boxland when we've seen Minato with his Kunai stomp its attempt via attacking. Itachi can do the same with Susano hand grab which is even faster than Minato's attack speed.


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## Trojan (Dec 12, 2018)

Unlikely.

Obito is simply better than him at everything...


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 12, 2018)

Obito's an ethereal entity in Kamui, therefore is highly vulnerable to astral offenses and defense. 

Genjutsu, furthermore, isn't physical for the most part therefore it's the perfect offense to use. Itachi requiring considerable amounts of prep and detailed knowledge to beat this man, was never a possibility in my estimation. Amaterasu also additionally bypasses astral projections that he happens to be.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

minato actually attacked before he attempted to suck him in . Minatos reactions are amazing on that note. He used FTG to escape the warp . So he didn’t avoid the warp . Obito has reacted to 4 opponents that are itachi level speed at once and still warped and phased through all attacks that didn’t involve obitos other eye lol . Obitos genjutsu feats are equal to or better than itachi  tbh . An ethereal entity ? No he’s physically transporting portions of his being to a different dimension. Totally diff ! You can’t hit something that isn’t there . Also to that point, I guess kamui can seemingly be used on ethereal entities though because obito teleported his spirit back to earth to give his chakra/eyes to kakashi .


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## strongestrinneganuser (Dec 12, 2018)

if itachi can figure out how to beat the rinnegans six paths, he probably will figure out how to counter kamui. minato also figured out how to counter kamui. although i highly doubt he can do anything to madara cuz madara is way too strong for obito, nagato, itachi, and minato individually.


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## Baroxio (Dec 12, 2018)

With full knowledge, Obito is a joke to Itachi. If Obito absorbs a clone (easy to do when Itachi has clone feinted in full view of EMS users and Perfect Sages) then he's basically negated all defensive uses of Kamui, since the clone with full knowledge can just attack whatever parts of his body that Obito chooses to phase. Remember, Kakashi got purposefully absorbed into Kamui land and landed two solid punches to the gut before porting back on his own. Were it not for Obito's massive plot armor, those punches would have been Kunai, or worse, Raikiri (especially since he was explicitly given chakra right before this). Worse still, when Obito ports in to see what's going on, Kakashi straight up bitchsmacks him before leaving, suggesting that Obito is vulnerable to getting ganked when entering Kamui land. There's no reason why Itachi's clones can't replicate Kakashi feats here, only with much more deadly utensils than Kakashi's pimp hand.

Offensively, Obito is a joke for his tier. He has one impressive fire jutsu (too bad fire jutsu have never killed anything in this manga before, let alone somebody with a defense as potent as Susano), but aside from that, all he has are giant projectile weapons, and mokuton projectiles that also blossom after impaling a target...so basically just more projectiles. Projectiles aren't touching Itachi after his feats of matching Sasuke in a shuriken tossing battle even though he was explicitly shown to have shoddy eyesight at the time while Sasuke needed to summon shuriken directly into his hands in order to compete. If we were really being honest though, Giant projectiles would never hit somebody of Obito's tier. So his only real offense then, is attempting to suck people up into Boxland, but we've already covered how Itachi can simply switch himself with a clone in front of his face and then Obito is totally fucked.

Obito's entire shtick relies on people not knowing his gimmick. There's a reason why Madara arrived the moment they landed a hit against him, and the Juubi finished transforming after Obito got his ass bitchslapped. There's also a reason why he struggled against 2 of Danzo's guards and the second weakest Akatsuki member (Konan) loosing arms against both of them (and in the latter case, loosing an eye on top of that). And that's because they managed to counter his gimmick, despite being far far below his tier. No other high tier relies on a single gimmick to the extent that Obito does. No other high tier will ever struggle against fodder way below them like that. Obito as a character is so volatile, that entire matchups are determined by whether or not you know about Kamui. And in this matchup, Itachi knows all about Kamui, and Itachi is the perfect person to abuse such knowledge.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Dec 12, 2018)

Yes with prep. 

Set up an explosive bunshin feint to be warped away and make it explode while Obito is warping it away.


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## JuicyG (Dec 12, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Yes with prep.
> 
> Set up an explosive bunshin feint to be warped away and make it explode while Obito is warping it away.



I doubt 1 exploding KB is going to kill Obito when Minato's rasengan didn't.


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## JuicyG (Dec 12, 2018)

Can Obito warp inside Susanoo? (Or through chakra constructs?)


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## Crow (Dec 12, 2018)

I don't think he could. Itachi isn't fast enough to react to the Kamui warp. If Hebi Sasuke could break Tsukuyomi with just 3T then Obito should be able to replicate that feat with an actual Mangekyou. Other than Genjutsu, Obito's feats are better across the board. He's faster, has better fire techs, more stamina, more chakra, and his Mangekyou is better. Obito can definitely beat him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 12, 2018)

No.



Sapherosth said:


> Susano activation stops any Kamui sucking attempts.



False.



> Izanami counters his Izanagi and if Obito tries to suck Itachi into boxland more than once he can just activate izanami.



Because Obito is going to broadcast he uses Izanagi. DId you forget that Itachi's own explanation states that Izanagi needs to be used twice for Izanami to work on it? 



> Sucking into boxland requires Obito to touch Itachi. What happens when you do that? Izanami. There's no way Obito can suck Itachi into boxland when we've seen Minato with his Kunai stomp its attempt via attacking. Itachi can do the same with Susano hand grab which is even faster than Minato's attack speed.



Izanami doesn't work how you seem to think it works. Minato had to rely on a FTG variant that Obito was unaware of and Obito knows everything Itachi can do. It won't work for Itachi.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Why wouldnot itachi think that legendary Uchiha Madara would    have izanagi?


Good point, but he still has to kill Obito again now which prob won't happen


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## Trojan (Dec 12, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Can Obito warp inside Susanoo? (Or through chakra constructs?)


Yes.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 12, 2018)

Crow Clone is just a sad excuse,  how may time have we seen obito taking clone to Boxland?  He destfoyed another 

Obitos sense of presence (sensing abilities) :  Has shown multiple times he can react to blindsides and is aware of enemy or attacks 
-- Phasing through danzos lap dogs kunai 
-- Effectively phasing through gais  gated attack when Naruto was used as bait.  
-- Reacted to multiple bindsidees fighting with masters and Naruto 

and suddenly when it comes to Itachi Obito want see through blasting clone ith sharingan because? ....  
Suddenly Obitos sense of opponent becomes 0 and he will  suck one Itachi knowing another isn't there because....? 


Another thing his fight against konan is used to downgrade him to make other character look better?  Those who argue this know how much prep and time along with knowledge was needed for the said feat and how Itachi would have done if he were in the same place. 
 But no konan is one of the weakest akatsuki and . . .    So Obito is weak and Itachi is strong 


Another is people make much fuss about Obito loosing arm to four and torune.  People forget that it was Obito himself that chose to loose his arm there. 
The match would have ended with kamui+ rod and Obito waited when torune was sucking poison from foo.  If he were serioud he would have ended the match there.  But the need of capturing enemy alive to gather Intel is often ingnored.  The only thing people analyze about the battle is Obito lost his arm against weak opponent so Itachi is stronger.  


The fact that Itachi considered Obito as Madera and Obitos visual prowess as sth that he needed to be surpassed shows what Itachis standing is 

In a konan situation Itachi would emerge victorious likely because he would anticipate izanagi unlike konan and have  tools prepared for that.

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 12, 2018)

Even with knowledge of kamui what can people do in a random encounter?  

Have attacks fast enough to deal with kamui? 
Can perform jutsu for 5 continous minute and then izanagi without giving Obito a foothold 

That's a sternous task ahead and with sharingan , Obitos  reaction  and his tankiness that makes it much  harer.  It's not Obito is just there doing kamui and every thing is happening,  his reactions couple with kamui made that possible   his attack speed are still good enough to pressure likes of KCM naruto 

Minato himself told that it needs specific counters to deal with kamui so minto  did that so...   .   . . Character would do is not a right  argument


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> I have sick Itachi beating Tobito
> 
> Kamui mechanics lose out to Amaterasu
> Izanami beats Izanagi
> It's a toss up between Tsukiyomi and Hashi-boosted genjutsu





Sapherosth said:


> Susano activation stops any Kamui sucking attempts.
> 
> Izanami counters his Izanagi and if Obito tries to suck Itachi into boxland more than once he can just activate izanami.
> 
> Sucking into boxland requires Obito to touch Itachi. What happens when you do that? Izanami. There's no way Obito can suck Itachi into boxland when we've seen Minato with his Kunai stomp its attempt via attacking. Itachi can do the same with Susano hand grab which is even faster than Minato's attack speed.





Sage light said:


> Obito's an ethereal entity in Kamui, therefore is highly vulnerable to astral offenses and defense.
> 
> Genjutsu, furthermore, isn't physical for the most part therefore it's the perfect offense to use. Itachi requiring considerable amounts of prep and detailed knowledge to beat this man, was never a possibility in my estimation. Amaterasu also additionally bypasses astral projections that he happens to be.


If these are the best arguments for Itachi winning then he definitely can't pull it off


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 12, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> If these are the best arguments for Itachi winning then he definitely can't pull it off


Well for once I agree with you


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 12, 2018)

Nope... He dies with the satisfaction that he tried with having full knowledge.


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## Baroxio (Dec 12, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> and suddenly when it comes to Itachi Obito want see through blasting clone ith sharingan because? ....
> Suddenly Obitos sense of opponent becomes 0 and he will suck one Itachi knowing another isn't there because....?



Because Itachi was able to clone feint a goddamn Perfect Sage who was actively sensing him the entire time. Kabuto's sensing feats vastly outweigh Obito's. Yet he was completely fooled by Itachi's clone feint not once, but twice. EMS Sasuke (who would later go on to react to fucking Juubito a mere couple of hours later) was similarly fooled.

Accept it, Itachi can clone feint almost anyone in the goddamn manga. And clones(/multiple bodies) are the number one counter to Kamui, as shown by the goddamn manga itself. Nothing you can say will change the fact that, after absorbing Kakashi, Obito was basically done for.

Combine that with Itachi's legendary-to-the-point-of-absurd clone feints and Obito lacking plot armor, and Obito stands zero chance against an Itachi with knowledge on how Kamui works.

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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

Full knowledge? No. Full knowledge and prep? Yes.

If Konan could kill Obito with prep I see Itachi being able to do the same but Itachi knows about Izanagi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 12, 2018)

No

Just like Jman cant beat Pain with knowledge 

Pains and Obitos later feats undoubtedly contradict the statements that suggest Itachi or Jman have a snowballs chance.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 12, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Full knowledge? No. Full knowledge and prep? Yes.
> 
> If Konan could kill Obito with prep I see Itachi being able to do the same but Itachi knows about Izanagi.


I doubt itachi has a move that is as large a scale as the one Konan used which goes on for 5 mins. That's the only thing Itachi can exploit on Obito.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

“Worlds strongest” , Konan had YEARS of prep and the absolute 100 percent perfect plan to get around kamui and she still didn’t kill him , she died that very day lol. Unless Itachi rips the ground from under his feet obito can just slip into the ground and there is nothing itachi could do to stop that . Obito absorbed a kakashi that he thought he knew for a fact had no chakra left.  Obito destroyed clones but he never even attempted to absorb a clone . Kakashi had to teleport narutos clone to the dimension and it couldn’t do any lasting damage to him. (Broke the mask though )  Itachi figuring out his trick means nothing considering he doesn’t have a kamui to counter it with. Obito can for real just walk right through yata and susanoo. Obitos speed and reactions are beyond itachi as well he has reacted to 4 opponents that were  itachi speed level at once . Naruto was even awestruck at his power and his continuous failures at even landing a single attack and that was with 3 kage level ninja on his team and one of them had Obitos eye. It just doesn’t sound good for itachi .


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> I doubt itachi has a move that is as large a scale as the one Konan used which goes on for 5 mins. That's the only thing Itachi can exploit on Obito.



With prep Itachi would dictate the battlefield just as Konan did. He would need to do it in a different way but I figure he is smart enough to do so. A trap with amaterasu could do it.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

He tried an Amaterasu trap on Tobi already did nothing , that was the perfect surprise attack too and still no sold by obito . He isn’t going to dictate anything against obito though . Konan didn’t dictate anything either she’s dead as crap. People just don’t get how complex Konans plan really was . Itachi is a powerhouse but Obito has him beat in like every area.

Speed : Obito reacted to the raikage’s speed at almost point blank range he reacted to a “from behind “ sneak attack from Gai and he seemingly wasn’t even paying attention to them his focus was on naruto. 4 kage level opponents at once and still put pressure on them .

Genjutsu : controlled 4th mizukage, nine tails ,Ao was comparing his genjutsu to koto and itachis genjutsu.

Taijutsu : equal to kakashi or even greater than considering he planned to lose the fight against kakashi and it went exactly as he planned.

Durability: Obito has taken 3 rasengans and two of them did virtually nothing to him . Survived rinne tensei , got his heart literally stabbed out and still teleported back to earth and than sealed the ten tails .mentally overpowered madara. He has lost arms multiple times . Almost never seems critically injured no matter what . He has regen that works almost instantly so even if he is injured he won’t be dying .

Ninjitsu : obitos katons are ten times the size of itachis largest fire style tech . He has barrier ninjitsu , wood release izanagi and much more .

I love itachi but he is just 100 percent outmatched in every category . Taijutsu is the only category he isn’t just outright inferior in . Taijutsu will never do anything to Obito though .


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 12, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> With prep Itachi would dictate the battlefield just as Konan did. He would need to do it in a different way but I figure he is smart enough to do so. A trap with amaterasu could do it.


Not likely when unlike a blast, the Amaterasu itself can be warped, like on panel. Obito was overconfident with Konan. He won't be with Itachi. Itachi would probably fie before he begins his big plan, whatever it could be.


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## Maverick04 (Dec 12, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Thoughts?


Yep he can but the chances are very low..He's gonna have to resort to Izanami..The main problem here is that Obito needs to just touch Itachi and he can warp him away..So if Itachi can somehow avoid being touched, maintain his distance and is able to create scenarios for Izanami then he can surely win..But again chances are quite low


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Izanami really is his only chance here and the odds of him hitting Obito with it.... it would be really difficult as it forces itachi to set physical sensations in battle And Obito cant really be clashed with .So even just setting up izanami is going to be even more difficult than it was to do to Kabuto and edo itachi had help in that battle .


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## Mar55 (Dec 12, 2018)

No.

People forget "prep" isn't actually a counter on its own. You must actually have the capabilities to defeat said opponent through the prep.

With that in mind, Itachi's prep didn't work on Obito before. We don't know of any prep he could manifest that would be effective against Obito. His powers are not suited to, which is understandable - Obito is his total superior. His showing of planning for Orochimaru don't really make up the gap, that same plan wouldn't work on Obito for numerous reasons.

Konan -the elephant in all Itachi w/Prep(tm) threads- had the advantage, because her powers are perfectly suited to counter Kamui's function on its own. Her swarms of paper can cover the battlefield from every angle and attack at a moments notice. She then took that advantage and went absolutely fucking insane with prep in a way only she can do.

Creating 60 billion paper bombs, hiding them in the lake below, luring Obito there, then opening the lake o' bomb into a endless chasm, swarming him with bombs to prevent the good old lolnope warp, forcing the lolnope phase, exploiting the time limit with a continuous explosion double Kamui's limit.

Then she lost.

So too will Itachi.

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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Mar55 is like a poet rn . That was well said .


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## Trojan (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> Konan had YEARS of prep


lol, nope she did not. 
Konan only got out of the Akatsuki after Nagato's death. There was barely a month at most between that moment and
her battle with Obito. Before that, she had no reason to plan anything against Obito.


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## Santoryu (Dec 12, 2018)

The guy in the red answers your question.


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## Mar55 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Before that, she had no reason to plan anything against Obito.


She does say she's been watching Obito, which would imply while they were apart of the Akatsuki.

I would imagine it was actually years to plan, at least. She has intimate knowledge of every facet of his abilities. That's not exactly easy to come by, given we're talking about Obito here.

That said, when she actually started prepping is up in the air. We don't really know how quickly she can produce however much paper.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> Speed : Obito reacted to the raikage’s speed at almost point blank range he reacted to a “from behind “ sneak attack from Gai and he seemingly wasn’t even paying attention to them his focus was on naruto. 4 kage level opponents at once and still put pressure on them


Don't forget he reacted to Juubi Madara at point blank range!

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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

That’s a good point but how could she have discovered the 5 minute limit and all these other perfect exact  details , which even kakashi who had the literal same ability couldn’t figure it out on the spot . She at the least I would say had been very closely watching him over time to get these minute details . She didn’t see him any time after the leaf village incident so just from that there we can say she had been mentally prepping since before that .


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Yeah and when he reacted to madara he also transformed black zetsu into a shakujo and used it to block truth seekers while he was attempting to teleport . Lol.


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## King1 (Dec 12, 2018)

Don't think so, his attacks can't tag obito and I don't see how obito can Kamui him into boxland either since itachi can react to him when he appears behind him and with full knowledge i think it would end in a draw


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

nah man even if they can’t hit each other itachi will run out of stamina long before obito breaks a sweat . His attacks can certainly tag itachi too. His speed with just kamui was overwhelming kyuubi naruto by himself . He required back up to avoid being warped . That happened several times too . Minato himself had to use another teleportation ability to avoid getting the L against a 14 year old Obito and Itachi doesn’t have any such power Itachi’s reactions should at the very tippity top be equal to or a tiny bit less than Minato’s. Minatos reactions aren’t what saved him though, his use of teleportation did. Meaning Obitos reactions are likely also pretty close to Minatos. That was child Obito too .


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

Just to clarify - Konan did not have *full knowledge*, which is why she died. Itachi does have full knowledge in this scenario. He knows the time limit. He knows Izanagi. He knows how Obito's jutsu works completely. If you give a person of his caliber full knowledge and *prep time* I can't see why he should lose. There are no tricks for Obito to employ. He has no backup plan and nothing to pull out of his ass. Prep time is generally treated as Deus Ex in fiction. An excuse to get anything accomplished.

If you argue that it is simply beyond Itachi's ability to kill Obito - possibly. I'm not creative enough and too lazy to whip up some impossible scenario so I won't argue that angle.


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## Mar55 (Dec 12, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> If you give a person of his caliber full knowledge and *prep time* I can't see why he should lose.


Because he doesn't have any abilities that would force Obito into an unwinnable situation.


ShinAkuma said:


> Prep time is generally treated as Deus Ex in fiction. An excuse to get anything accomplished.


I directly acknowledge this fallacious thinking in my post.

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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Because he doesn't have any abilities that would force Obito into an unwinnable situation.



I covered this in the post you quoted but left out.



> I directly acknowledge this fallacious thinking in my post.


 
You created an argument, that prep time is a counter on its own, and called it fallacious. I didn't make this argument I  simply pointed out how prep is usually treated in fiction.


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## Mar55 (Dec 12, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> I didn't make this argument simply pointed out how prep is usually treated in fiction.


Except prep is not universally just a solution, we even have examples in Naruto proving such.

I'm not saying you made the argument, I'm simply noting that such an argument is without standing.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Obito has fought against prep , full knowledge , he has even fought against multiple opponents who possessed his one and only real weakness and they still still couldn’t manage to injure him . His regen, speed , kamui and overall cunning and intelligence in my opinion make this battle as you stated Shin Akuma essentially impossible for Itachi to come out on top . I’m not saying it could never happen but Obito 9 out of 10  ish .As strange as it may sound konan possessing an ability that allowed her to use massive quantities of high speed ,exploding and adhering paper tags actually was tbh a much better counter for him than itachis own move set and he even admitted he completely underestimated her . Prep could give him an advantage or it could just not work on him . Obito is like the king of no selling attacks in general lol

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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Except prep is not universally just a solution, we even have examples in Naruto proving such.



I understand that, but my scenario is prep and full knowledge. Full knowledge allows an opponent to account for all the variables. There is no "gotcha" moments with full knowledge.



> I'm not saying you made the argument, I'm simply noting that such an argument is without standing.



Fair enough.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Just because you have full prep doesn’t exclude you from “gotcha moments “ either. He could know everything Obito is capable of and still just not be up to the challenge . If itachi runs out of stamina which he eventually would imo I could certainly imagine a gotcha moment going for tobito. As far as surprise attacks go ,Itachi isn’t even a sensor. He is at a very natural disadvantage here no matter what because he will be using his eyes to keep track of a disappearing and teleporting opponent . Naruto a very adept sensor still couldn’t keep up 1 vs 1 .


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## Mar55 (Dec 12, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> There is no "gotcha" moments with full knowledge.


That's not necessarily true either.


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 12, 2018)

I agree with @ShinAkuma Itachi would have an unbeatable plan (not only because he is Itachi) with prep he would probably have his crow inchworm his way out of Naruto's throat (gimme my lewd rating) and have Koto as a back up.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

The crow responds to his mangekyou so it could theoretically be repurposed for this battle ** Naruto isn’t in this battle either . Unless we are just giving him the crow and even than I doubt it would work lol. His plans aren’t unbeatable to begin with like when he already tried to kill obito and failed .Being a sensor isn’t required per say but when we see a sensor as skilled , powerful and fast as kcm naruto getting essentially blitzed against Obito it’s kind of strange to imagine someone who won’t really even be able to know where Obito is coming from defeating him .( itachi ) I don’t see how he would bring said plans to fruition not to mention . I want to know what exactly his play would be here .


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> Just because you have full prep doesn’t exclude you from “gotcha moments “ either.





Mar55 said:


> That's not necessarily true either.



Let me clarify.

When I say "gotcha" moments I am specifically referring to a scenario where one character thinks they have won only to find out the opponent survived due to some unknown and esoteric ability that they previously had no clue about. (Jiraiya/Pein, Konan/Obito) Full knowledge prevents any gotcha moments like this.

That isn't to say there can be no surprises. (surprised at the will to live, combat prowess, etc) But these types of surprises are not predicated on one character being completely unaware of some ability or gimmick that would save the opponent.

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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> The crow responds to his mangekyou so it could theoretically be repurposed for this battle ** Naruto isn’t in this battle either . Unless we are just giving him the crow and even than I doubt it would work lol. His plans aren’t unbeatable to begin with like when he already tried to kill obito and failed .Being a sensor isn’t required per say but when we see a sensor as skilled , powerful and fast as kcm naruto getting essentially blitzed against Obito. I don’t see how he would bring said plans to fruition not to mention . I want to know what exactly his play would be here .


Let's just say he retrieves the crow. He tried to kill Obito from beyond the grave, of course, he knew Itachi didn't want him near Sasuke so he knew something was coming. Plus we know he was extremely wary of Itachi because he waited for him to die before going for Sasuke. Finally, if Itachi was alive his assassination attempt on Obito would have been more likely to succeed. Plus Itachi had Kage level intellect as a child so his plan is bound to be pretty solid if we take in account his hype and portrayal.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Hype is just that .... hype . He has a monstrous and devoted fan base and he is a ba character so I totally get it lol He has no defense for obitos abilities and very low stamina and obito has the most solid defense and stamina in naruto. The crow could help but Obito is without question in my mind itachi’s intellectual match as well. He knows shisuis mangekyou , wanted it for himself even . You can’t genjutsu something that isn’t there . I could only see this working if obito just stands there and let’s koto hit him . So unless we assume itachi beats obito with shisuis ability it prolly won’t happen .


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> Hype is just that hype . This Link is itachi’s fate. He has no defense for obitos abilities and very low stamina and obito has the most solid defense and stamina in naruto.


An opponent like Fuu and Torune don't compare to Itachi.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Yeah and An opponent like itachi doesn’t compare to Obito. He fought 4 kage level at once . Itachi has nothing like that on his track record .. just saying ..we can reach and give itachi freebies . All I’m saying is 9 out of 10 Obito prep or no prep .He is simply out of Itachis league . Honestly though what would itachi do if obito attempted that ? He practically came out of Torunes own body lol not having sensor abilities would make that really hard for anyone to avoid let alone counter and defeat said untouchable opponent !!


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> Yeah and An opponent like itachi doesn’t compare to Obito. He fought 4 kage level at once . Itachi has nothing like that on his track record .. just saying ..we can reach and give itachi freebies . All I’m saying is 9 out of 10 Obito prep or no prep .He is simply out of Itachis league . Honestly though what would itachi do if obito attempted that ? He practically came out of Torunes own body lol not having sensor abilities would make that really hard for anyone to avoid let alone counter and defeat said untouchable opponent !!


What 4 Kage levels did he face? It has been a while so you have to provide a few more details.


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Obito's an ethereal entity in Kamui, therefore is highly vulnerable to astral offenses and defense.
> 
> Genjutsu, furthermore, isn't physical for the most part therefore it's the perfect offense to use. Itachi requiring considerable amounts of prep and detailed knowledge to beat this man, was never a possibility in my estimation. Amaterasu also additionally bypasses astral projections that he happens to be.



Your entire perception of ethereal entities in Naruto is whack, bro. It is literally explained for us that Obito moves things into a different dimension. No becoming a spirit. Genjutsu is absolutely useless against someone as competent as Obito. Also, where do we see Amaterasu pass by astral projections?

Anywho, I like both sides of this right now. I think it is possible for Itachi to win, but his chances are slim and will require the use of Izanami (hard to pull off, even with knowledge of Obito's attack patterns), or Koto which Itachi likely cannot get in time without prep. The clone feint strat is great on paper, but Obito just won't take any relevant damage from it. Obitio is also just faster and more adept at most things, so it'll be hard for Itachi to match him.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

War arc Kakashi ( not to be confused with pain arc kakashi who could only use kamui like once before he died and who quite literally had Obitos other eye and only true weakness ) Gai ( greatest taijutsu master of all time as proclaimed by madara himself) Naruto uzumaki (called the Orange hokage by his own village , son of the 4th hokage and Jin of the nine tails ) Killer Bee (a perfect Jin of the 8 tails who single handedly took on an ms wielding taka) All 4 of them using kamui and working as a team never connected a single attack without using Obitos other eye against him. I feel that this team was more powerful than the 5 Kages themselves or at least rivaling the power of the kages . They were specifically potent against Obito too . He had the rinnegan techs too in that fight but to conserve chakra he basically only used his right eye through the entire fight .


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## Sapherosth (Dec 12, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> War arc Kakashi ( not to be confused with pain arc kakashi who could only use kamui like once before he died and who quite literally had Obitos other eye and only true weakness ) Gai ( greatest taijutsu master of all time as proclaimed by madara himself) Naruto uzumaki (called the Orange hokage by his own village , son of the 4th hokage and Jin of the nine tails ) Killer Bee (a perfect Jin of the 8 tails who single handedly took on an ms wielding taka) All 4 of them using kamui and working as a team never connected a single attack without using Obitos other eye against him. I feel that this team was more powerful than the 5 Kages themselves or at least rivaling the power of the kages . They were specifically potent against Obito too . He had the rinnegan techs too in that fight but to conserve chakra he basically only used his right eye through the entire fight .





All of that doesn't mean shit. 

Minato still landed a blow against Obito despite being leagues weaker than those 4 combined. 

POWER isn't what's needed to beat Obito. It's the skillset. What's perfect against Obito is an instantaneous defense and a good offense that counters Kamui AKA Izanami.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 12, 2018)

Baroxio said:


> ecause Itachi was able to clone feint a goddamn Perfect Sage who was actively sensing him the entire time. Kabuto's sensing feats vastly outweigh Obito's. Yet he was completely fooled by Itachi's clone feint not once, but twice. EMS Sasuke (who would later go on to react to fucking Juubito a mere couple of hours later) was similarly fooled.
> 
> Accept it, Itachi can clone feint almost anyone in the goddamn manga. And clones(/multiple bodies) are the number one counter to Kamui, as shown by the goddamn manga itself. Nothing you can say will change the fact that, after absorbing Kakashi, Obito was basically done for.
> 
> Combine that with Itachi's legendary-to-the-point-of-absurd clone feints and Obito lacking plot armor, and Obito stands zero chance against an Itachi with knowledge on how Kamui works.



There is no point in comparing Obitos battle instincts with Kabuto. Kabuto even forgot he has a horn for that matter. 

He can create clone fast enough but pressuring Obito with that thats no. The fact that Obito went on a combination attack from KCM naruto gai and kakashi shows that eeven if is startled by his clone speed. He will phase right through letting itachi destroy his work or use gunai to  destroy it himself 

Obito has never taken clone inside. Narutos clone was actively taken in by Kakashis kamui. He absobed Kakashi thinking he was drained  and likely kakashi with kamui only replicated the feat seeing how foo torune never replicated that and nor did sasuke karin met foo and torune in boxland


Obito lacking plot Armour


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

Izanami and Koto are the only real feasible techniques that can win, potentially Totsuka - if Itachi can finagle a genjustu to trick Obito into going solid- easier said than done considering Obito is very much aware of Itachi’s genjustu. And that Obito has the best long term genjustu control feat in the series ( barring Six Paths ).

Clone feint would work,- but the second Obito sees the real itachi he could just warp to box land and take out the clone, it’s only gg if itachi can sneak a clone in ( mabey a henged clone Kunai) . 

The reason the naruto clone could
Hit Obito, was because Kakashi snuck him into the kamui dimension. Obito didn’t even know he was their. 

Howver, Obito has so many more avenues for victory.

Of course, we have no basis for measuring heathy itachi, or a properly prepped itachi. For all we know, with proper prep- he wins via Rin genjustu. Gg

friend tortured his little brother with constant images of his parents being murdered.

You don’t want to know what Itachi could make Mist ninja do to Rin in a genjustu.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

A non ms sasuke easily saw through itachi’s genjutsu I’m confident a guy who controlled the nine tails and a perfect Jin and used the same ms sasuke as a pawn would be good on the Rin genjutsu . I’ve already covered that if minato didn’t have a teleportation ability he would have lost to obito without a doubt . He actually ended up dying that day anyhow . That also was obito at age 14 as in he was literally a child lol . He is 16 years older and stronger here . Sm kabuto May very well have killed itachi in a 1 vs 1 vs non edo itachi so let’s not underrate him either lol . I don’t know if I see minato being able to defeat adult obito either . But we’re not going to get into all that .


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 12, 2018)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Of course, we have no basis for measuring heathy itachi, or a properly prepped itachi. For all we know, with proper prep- he wins via Rin genjustu. Gg
> 
> friend tortured his little brother with constant images of his parents being murdered.
> 
> You don’t want to know what Itachi could make Mist ninja do to Rin in a genjustu.



As much as we like to make fun of Obito for helping start because his crush died, he will know that Rin being tortured before him is Genjutsu just about immediately. The man's life goal was to make a _Genjustu_ world where he could see Rin again.


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## kokodeshide (Dec 12, 2018)

This is a fun fight. I see either itachi using a Clone and as Obito is sucking it up itachi blows it and obitos head right off. Or Obito overwhelms him and Itachi never lands a blow and runs out of chakra. or itachi uses izanami. Its a toss up to me. Obito has the better odds but Itachi has higher lethality.


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 12, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> This is a fun fight. I see either itachi using a Clone and as Obito is sucking it up itachi blows it and obitos head right off. Or Obito overwhelms him and Itachi never lands a blow and runs out of chakra. or itachi uses izanami. Its a toss up to me. Obito has the better odds but Itachi has higher lethality.



Remeber when Obito tanked a Rasengan to the face and was pretty much fine. A BM Rasengan to be precise. Itachi's clone explosion will do nothing.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

He sucked an explosion in with kamui as it was happening lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Dec 12, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Remeber when Obito tanked a Rasengan to the face and was pretty much fine. A BM Rasengan to be precise. Itachi's clone explosion will do nothing.


I'd like to think of it like holding a firecracker in your hand . only dangerous if it is a closed hand. The kamui is essentially directly connected to his eyeball. that explosion is gonna suck. The rasengan hit the mask, it isnt really known if the force was transferred to his head. And rasengan size infers power, not the mode he is in.


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 12, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> I'd like to think of it like holding a firecracker in your hand . only dangerous if it is a closed hand. The kamui is essentially directly connected to his eyeball. that explosion is gonna suck. The rasengan hit the mask, it isnt really known if the force was transferred to his head. And rasengan size infers power, not the mode he is in.



I see what you mean now.
Regardless, it won't be dealing any lasting damage thanks to dem Hashi cells.


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## kokodeshide (Dec 12, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I see what you mean now.
> Regardless, it won't be dealing any lasting damage thanks to dem Hashi cells.


Maybe, but idk. an explosion to the eyeball is bound to hurt. Or at least make Obito think "HOLY FUCK WHAT WAS THAT, IS DIS GENJUTSU???" for long enough for itachi to do something. Problem is, itachi needs very specific ways to win whereas obito can just outlast him in any scenario.


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 12, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> Maybe, but idk. an explosion to the eyeball is bound to hurt. Or at least make Obito think "HOLY FUCK WHAT WAS THAT, IS DIS GENJUTSU???" for long enough for itachi to do something. Problem is, itachi needs very specific ways to win whereas obito can just outlast him in any scenario.



Itachi will at best have time for 3 punches before Obito realizes that was one explosion that won't happen again and proceed to wreck Itachi's shit.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

He functioned just fine with his heart stabbed out of his chest and after losing an arm on two occasions and by his own admission he doesn’t even feel pain . So probably not even 3 punches .


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## kokodeshide (Dec 12, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Itachi will at best have time for 3 punches before Obito realizes that was one explosion that won't happen again and proceed to wreck Itachi's shit.


Izanami or Amaterasu instead of 3 punches.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Dec 12, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> As much as we like to make fun of Obito for helping start because his crush died, he will know that Rin being tortured before him is Genjutsu just about immediately. The man's life goal was to make a _Genjustu_ world where he could see Rin again.




When Obito  saw Rin in Narutos TNJ punch - he lost his resolve. 

The whole reason his sword of nunobokuto was so shitty, was because he didn’t have the right spirit to use it properly. 

Btw - I’m largely kidding about itachi genjusting Rin to win.


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## Darkscion (Dec 12, 2018)

Mainly due to the fact that he knew what he was doing what was morally wrong and that Rin was watching him but yes .His will power is indomitable in the right circumstance though . Like for example when Obito set his mind on becoming the juubi Jin .


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## Mar55 (Dec 13, 2018)

A simple exploding clone shouldn't even harm Obito, it barely did anything to Kakashi after all. He tanked KCM and BM Rasengans with minimal injury. He also warped Konan's suicide attempt which contained dozens to hundreds of paper bombs - mid-explosion - and only lost an arm. He could easily warp the explosion itself away, even ignoring the durability aspect.

Not to mention Obito is going to dominate in CQC with his superior speed, strength, evasiveness via Kamui, and the continuous phased pursuit that is his fighting style.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 13, 2018)

Obito can still just outlast him. He can lol nope his attacks with kamui while Itachi will eventually fall to the strain of the MS. Normal stipulations Itachi gets low diffed at worst.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 13, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Your entire perception of ethereal entities in Naruto is whack, bro. It is literally explained for us that Obito moves things into a different dimension. No becoming a spirit. Genjutsu is absolutely useless against someone as competent as Obito. Also, where do we see Amaterasu pass by astral projections?
> 
> Anywho, I like both sides of this right now. I think it is possible for Itachi to win, but his chances are slim and will require the use of Izanami (hard to pull off, even with knowledge of Obito's attack patterns), or Koto which Itachi likely cannot get in time without prep. The clone feint strat is great on paper, but Obito just won't take any relevant damage from it. Obitio is also just faster and more adept at most things, so it'll be hard for Itachi to match him.



Contrary to popular belief, Obito did not escape Amaterasu, via Kamui.


You're partially right, on the fact that the jutsu, transports portions of the user's body to a material realm. However, the castor doesn't cease to exist, a hologrammic projection is projected lacking a physical form ie., _ethereal_.

Said projection is ethereally nullified via the spiritual blade - _Totsuka_. Additionally, it could also be neutralized via the astral mirroring shield of Yata. They share a dualistically resembling trait i.e. the magical ability to neutralize astrally functioning abilities and entities. 
_
They lose almost all measures of significance in the face of the ethereal spirit tools efficacy_ - DB 3.

Throwing back to my original statement prior, the Amaterasu counter, at the least, something that associates remotely close to the former, exists in the former's arsenal ie. the battle would efficiently alter tides if he matches the clash with said technique.  

Although it's partially speculative whether the counteract attempt would even be successful, considering the fact that former is universally acclaimed to be the superior flame.


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## Mar55 (Dec 13, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Obito did not escape Amaterasu, via Kamui.


Then how did he escape, oh wise one?


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

The Totsuka is an Ethereal weapon itself but we have never seen it seal anyone “ethereal “ away or even harm anyone or anything like that . Just because it is a friggin ghost weapon doesn’t automatically mean we can assume it has a special interaction with other ghost “like” entities  I said ghost like because we don’t know what happens when the kamui user teleports portions of their body we do know that the part that is transported cannot be interacted with from the real world . So no sorry unless itachi hits him with totsuka from kamuis dimension I’m afraid it will be passing right through like any other weapon . wise one for real though stop with the head canon mayne. We don’t know how he escaped Amaterasu all we have is speculation which is exactly what you have. I also believe that ,that statement above is implying souls as in ghosts and it possibly could even imply that perhaps it could have an affect on dans ability . Obitos ability is manipulating space time . He isn’t a ghost and he isn’t material . You may see him there but he isn’t actually there and totsuka doesn’t have an ability to rip obito out of his intangibility so stop running with vague statements from the data book that don’t have any feats to back it up .


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

One more thing find one source that says Kamui is an astrally functioning ability . No yata mirror can’t do anything to something that literally is not there . It’s in a different dimension bro . Yata can’t block something that just doesn’t exist. where is all this coming from !?!!. The image that is left when a kamui user phases for all we know is a reflection . Point is we don’t know that ,we just don’t .


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## Architect (Dec 13, 2018)

No


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2018)

How does prep help itachi exactly? 
which one of his abilities, tools...etc will be benefited from given extra time? 
or in other words, what kind of plan is he going to do with this extra time? 

Or are we just assuming that he will have "some sort" of a plan, and this unknown plan is just assumed
to work perfectly?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 13, 2018)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> *Howver, Obito has so many more avenues for victory.*






Tell me...What other "avenues" does Obito have besides sucking people into boxland?


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

Is that a serious question bro ^^


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Tell me...What other "avenues" does Obito have besides sucking people into boxland?


stab them with wood? 
The same like he did to Kiri-Ninja?


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

Kills torune \/

Unleashes massive scale monitor using juubi to enhance its range and power killing hundreds of ninja including Neji Hyuuga. \/

Warps torune \/

Mokuton \/

Mokuton\/

Kamui ejection \/

Massive katon \/

Human path \/

Improvisation \/

Gedo Mazo \/

Sword play ( anime )

6 paths of Obito \/


Below is just to showcase his enhanced durability and his zetsu limbs are much stronger than ordinary human limbs .

Stops zabuzas blade with his zetsu arm effortlessly \/

Lift’s and choke’s konan while forcing her to make eye contact with him with one hand . \/


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 13, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Obito did not escape Amaterasu, via Kamui.
> 
> 
> You're partially right, on the fact that the jutsu, transports portions of the user's body to a material realm. However, the castor doesn't cease to exist, a hologrammic projection is projected lacking a physical form ie., _ethereal_.
> ...



Half of your argument is headcannon, the other half does not make sense. Obito got away, did he not? He was not mortally wounded by Amaterasu. 

You claim that Obito had a spiritual form in the "real" dimension while he has some part of him in his own dimension. Can you show me where this is explicitly stated? You probably can't because you're making things up as you go.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 13, 2018)

Itachi can beat him if Obito absorbs a clone and then Itachi + clone are attacking him from both dimensions, especially w/ knowledge beforehand.

The clone will effectively disable Kamui as a defensive tool against Itachi for the remainder the fight unless Obito goes into boxland and kills it then comes back, which will be hard when Itachi's clone still has MS but Obito can no longer use kamui.

Can Itachi successfully get a clone absorbed? Well Itachi was able to clone feint EMS Sasuke/Sage Kabuto, multiple times. Even earlier he found a gap in the rinnegan's shared vision and was able to exploit it vs Nagato via kunai in the small blindspot. I think if he can catch the likes of those characters unaware he can do it to MS Obito as they are roughly similar level. With knowledge and plotting beforehand he'll especially be successful here. 

Izanagi will be used eventually which with knowledge beforehand Itachi can counter with Izanami so I think he should win.

In a scenario w/o knowledge, I think Itachi probably will tire out before figuring out Obito's arsenal Kamui + Izanagi but that won't happen here with the knowledge already uncovered before + him being healthy.

There's some other stuff like elemental ninjutsu Katons / mokuton and speed but they don't really matter here. Those can be tank via Susano'o even in lower forms(not like he has the mokuton chakra absorber dragon, his basic mokuton ain't doing nothing), and they're all in the same ballpark of speed  KCM Naruto/Itachi/Sage Kabuto/ EMS Sasuke speed/reaction level. MS Obito not an outlier of that group speed/reaction wise outside some serious wank.

Obito's basically going to absorb a clone and get ganked from both sides, eventually Izanagi to counter and get defeated by Izanami is how this goes with full knowledge of Obito's abilities for Itachi.

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## Mar55 (Dec 13, 2018)

Clones won't work, Obito never once Kamui's someone when they have clones in play. Being a sensor, it makes sense that he wouldn't. Kabuto was losing to clones not because he couldn't counter them - he did the sole time it was used - but because the interaction was used to force him into Izanami.

More than that, the acting from the other side only seemed to work because of Kakashi's Kamui. Every other instance of Kamui showcases Obito pulling from different spaces than where he is, such as with the Rinnegan stakes and the big ass Shuriken, which are clearly not in the same area. Same with trying to Kamui people away, as he was completely surprised that Kakashi was in his area, despite having warped him away himself.

When fighting to free Sasuke, he noted he can mark places with his Kamui allowing him to freely enter and exit wherever he marks. I'd wager he can choose where they end up, considering he was never bothered from both sides until his other eye started sending clones his way.


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## Karyu Endan (Dec 13, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Contrary to popular belief, Obito did not escape Amaterasu, via Kamui.



Databook hyperbole that means nothing when it is contradicted by the events of the manga. It claims that there is no escape from Amaterasu when we see Obito _literally do just that_ on-panel. The Fourth Raikage would also later escape from Sasuke's Amaterasu by running too fast for Sasuke's eyes to keep up with him. So the idea that Amaterasu is literally inescapable is flat-out false.



> You're partially right, on the fact that the jutsu, transports portions of the user's body to a material realm. However, the castor doesn't cease to exist, a hologrammic projection is projected lacking a physical form ie., _ethereal_.



Even if the projection _could_ be affected (though we've seen no evidence at all to suggest it can) the real Obito would remain unharmed and in another plane of existence entirely.



> Said projection is ethereally nullified via the spiritual blade - _Totsuka_. Additionally, it could also be neutralized via the astral mirroring shield of Yata. They share a dualistically resembling trait i.e. the magical ability to neutralize astrally functioning abilities and entities.



The weapons themselves are stated to be ethereal. Nothing is said about them being able to affect other ethereal entities beyond the NLF you post below.



> _They lose almost all measures of significance in the face of the ethereal spirit tools efficacy_ - DB 3.



This too is databook hyperbole contradicted by the manga. It says that Totsuka can cut through anything it hits by sealing it away and can reflect anything by altering its properties, and both of these claims are false. If there was no limit to what Totsuka could seal away, then Itachi would have used it to get rid of Chibaku Tensei's core in the war arc rather than suggest he, KCM Naruto and Killer B combine their attacks and by doing so imply nothing Itachi could do on his own (including Totsuka) could deal with it. If Yata could truly reflect anything, then it would have reflected the Kirin that destroyed Susano'o off-panel in his fight with Sasuke rather than what was implied: that Itachi only survived Kirin because Susano'o took the hit for him.

Also, the same page claims that Susano'o can only be awakened by those who have mastered Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu... which was only true when Itachi was the only known user of the technique. It's later established in the Five Kage Summit arc by Sasuke that Susano'o is awakened by those who develop MS Jutsu in both eyes, but what those jutsu are will vary from user to user. Sasuke has Kagutsuchi in place of Tsukiyomi, Obito has two different variants of Kamui, Shisui had Koto Amatsukami in both eyes, and Madara's jutsu remain unknown because Susano'o is the only MS jutsu we ever see him use. And it also claims that Totsuka and Yata are intrinsic qualities of Susano'o but Itachi's remains the only Susano'o that actually possesses them. So the NLF isn't the only issue with DB3's entry on Susano'o.

At any rate, Totsuka's NLF and Yata's NLF are an example of a famous contradiction when taken together that Kishi has used himself in-universe on two occasions. You can claim that a spear can pierce through anything, and you can claim that a shield can block anything, but what happens when you take the ultimate spear and try to pierce through the ultimate shield? If the attack goes through, then the shield couldn't block everything. If the attack is blocked, then the spear couldn't pierce everything. Either way you run into a contradiction.

Kimimaro was referred to as having the strongest spear and shield late in Part 1. But his spear couldn't penetrate Gaara's sand and the sand couldn't kill him in turn, so the shield was proven stronger. The Third Raikage was also referred to with the same terms, and the contradiction is shown when the spear pierced through his shield. Totsuka and Yata are no different. If Totsuka seals Yata, then Yata can't block everything. And if Yata repels Totsuka, then Totsuka can't seal everything.

It's disheartening to see people readily accept that Totsuka and Yata are invincible when Itachi himself disagrees when he says that _every technique has a weakness_. That includes his own goddamn arsenal. 

Yes, Obito's Kamui has a weakness too, but it's not a weakness that Itachi can exploit no matter how much time or information he's given.

inb4 clone feints and Sage Kabuto not seeing through them. For one thing, Obito has never voluntarily sent a clone to Kamui-land. Kakashi had to warp a clone there while making Obito think he physically dispelled one. For another thing, Kabuto tends to have PIS when he fights. _A lot._ He let Naruto hit him with the Rasengan when he could have dodged it, he forgot about the Human and Naraka paths and let himself be distracted by CT's destruction when he was controlling Nagato, and it apparently never occurred to Kabuto to try dispelling Itachi's ET without dispelling all the others and prevent Itachi from being a participant in their battle in the first place. For a supposed genius and Orochimaru's most trusted lieutenant, Kabuto is an _idiot_ in the heat of battle who frequently and consistently loses battles he should win because of his own oversights.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 13, 2018)

Karyu Endan said:


> Kabuto to try dispelling Itachi's ET without dispelling all the others and prevent Itachi from being a participant in their battle in the first place. For a supposed genius and Orochimaru's most trusted lieutenant, Kabuto is an _idiot_ in the heat of battle who frequently and consistently loses battles he should win because of his own oversights.


Don't forget that he forgot he had horns in Sage Mode 

Wish I could pay for this post

Absolutely amazing, wish Itachi fanboys saying he could win their laughable strategies would read and learn from this


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 13, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Clones won't work, Obito never once Kamui's someone when they have clones in play. Being a sensor, it makes sense that he wouldn't. Kabuto was losing to clones not because he couldn't counter them - he did the sole time it was used - but because the interaction was used to force him into Izanami.


And likewise Obito's never fought some who has bypassed share vision and feinted EMS/ perfect sages with clones before, so to say he won't absorb a clone or he'll figure out when Itachi has used one has no precedent and is up in the air. He hasn't not-been-tricked by someone with Itachi's achievements. But one side has knowledge here from start.



Mar55 said:


> More than that, the acting from the other side only seemed to work because of Kakashi's Kamui. Every other instance of Kamui showcases Obito pulling from different spaces than where he is, such as with the Rinnegan stakes and the big ass Shuriken, which are clearly not in the same area. Same with trying to Kamui people away, as he was completely surprised that Kakashi was in his area, despite having warped him away himself.
> 
> When fighting to free Sasuke, he noted he can mark places with his Kamui allowing him to freely enter and exit wherever he marks. I'd wager he can choose where they end up, considering he was never bothered from both sides until his other eye started sending clones his way.


Why did Obito not just move away from where Kakashi is (in boxland) and then go back to kamui-spam-cqc-wrecking Naruto then? If he could of I imagine that would be in the cards but he didn't. I like this point but disagree since it seems it evidently doesn't work like that.

Also even if you were right, Itachi still only needs for Obito to engage and _try to_ warp a clone twice for Izanami to oneshot him. If he survived 2 exploding bushins, and felt it twice, that is enough for a victory scenario via izanami (seperate from victory scenario via absorbed clone/Itachi attacking from both sides).


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 13, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Don't forget that he forgot he had horns in Sage Mode
> 
> Wish I could pay for this post
> 
> Absolutely amazing, wish Itachi fanboys saying he could win their laughable strategies would read and learn from this


I know right, people don't learn from things. I mean just the other day for example there was a thread with people claiming FRS could penetrate Susano'o, when the author made it clear it wouldn't penetrate Susano'o, but that doesn't stop thoughts of FRS somehow penetrating Susano'o from propagating anyway. It's the fake news curse of NBD .


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

This is pointless. First off . Itachi will not be avoiding kamui even one time and the reason for that is simple , itachi isn’t even a sensor ninja he has no defense and no way of knowing where Obito is coming from . Naruto who is an extremely adept sensor couldn’t stop his warps even with clones he still would have quickly lost 1 vs 1 . Itachi still isn’t getting in any licks against obito and idk even understand why anyone bothers to say other wise lol . Like I said in an earlier post . Unless we just wanna be super nice and give itachi freebie ( like giving him other people’s abilities aka shisuis eye) he stands literally no chance . Obito knows his own weaknesses better than anyone he will not suck in a clone he always destroys them . Even if injured he has insta regen and even if put in genjutsu his feats in genjutsu are superior to itachi. Itachi is awesome but he worked for obito for a reason.


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

Just realized something . Only the parts of obitos body that are currently over lapping with another object are sent to the kamui dimension so that whole astral theory is untrue to begin with . If you could see obito when he is phasing than that part of his body would actually appear to be missing entirely . The reason we don’t see it ever is because it is actually seamlessly sent to the other dimension as it overlaps with objects in the normal space time . So obitos body isn’t visible when he’s using kamui there are always other objects on top of whatever part he is phasing because those are the mechanics . So there we go proof obito isn’t ethereal like we needed it anyways lol


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 13, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Half of your argument is headcannon, the other half does not make sense. Obito got away, did he not? He was not mortally wounded by Amaterasu.


Do you think it makes an iota of sense to assume Obito did not get mortally wounded due to just _that_, when the author claims the attack is _inescapable_ in reference to that _exact_ same scene, that many suggest that, _Kamui_ was the window of escape?


> You claim that Obito had a spiritual form in the "real" dimension while he has some part of him in his own dimension. Can you show me where this is explicitly stated? You probably can't because you're making things up as you go.



Theoretically, given he could percieve the outer realm, and the fact he could precisely monitor his attack patterns and the opponent (s) assault patterns should imply he does possess the scientifically abstract concepts of the sense of visual perception, auditory, mental thought waves, metaphysical substances like soul etccera, ie., an _abstract_ piece of his self.

The underlying logical deduction originating by the fact, he does not _cease_ from existence, therefore, a part of his existential criteria _does_ exist on the earthly realm.

Further-more, the DB IV explicitly notes the description wording in the excerpt; to be alluding to the "slipping" of _body parts_ only, and not _ethereal substantials_ like the intrinsically _astral linked _soul to being within the realm of Kamui's physicality bypassing power . That, and the hologrammic imagery being factually the existential criteria, ie. he cannot physically return without a "husk" that behaves like a _container_ to contain the physical compartments of his body innately. 

Theoretically, he'd be eternally _exiled_ to the dimensional box realm w/o an ample loop-hole to return.


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

Ok I get what your saying the only issue here is that that’s all it is bro . It what your saying as in your trying to make facts in the naruto verse by using logic and unless your a writer than it just doesn’t have any bearing . If kishi wanted obitos ability to work the way you say . That is how it would work than . It doesn’t work that way though obitos dimension literally transports pieces of his body and it doesn’t injure him because that’s what he does through the entire series and it has been explained multiple times . His soul has nothing to do with kamui and the parts of his body that are intangible are seamlessly transferred upon overlapping with other objects. Meaning you can’t see the parts of him that are intangible technically . So your theory only has bearing in your own mind my friend . What are you saying rn bro . You can Not see the parts of obito that are being phased . There is no holgrammic imagery if there was we couldn’t see it anyway and it’s impossible to prove other wise . Hitto from dbs has an ability more akin to what your referring to .


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## Darkscion (Dec 13, 2018)

Sage light look at this pic



You can’t see the parts that are intangible because they aren’t there and because there is always going to be something blocking our view of it because that’s literally how the ability works . No hologramnic , astral blah blah that’s not naruto man you must be think of something else


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 13, 2018)

Sage light said:


> _inescapable_


Obito got away, did he not?


Sage light said:


> the DB IV explicitly notes


Are all of your arguments based on the absolute monstrosity that are the DBs? Oh yeah, and headcannon. The databooks contradict themselves half the time and will literally get disproven by the manga 2 chapters later. They are not reliable and tend to exaggerate to make things sound cool.

Anyways, you're claiming things that have no manga basis besides "Obito transports his body". Theoretically does not work on a debate like this.


Sage light said:


> Theoretically, he'd be eternally _exiled_ to the dimensional box realm w/o an ample loop-hole to return.


No? Not sure what you mean here given the man has an eyeball that acts as a portal.


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## Bonly (Dec 13, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Obito can still just outlast him. He can lol nope his attacks with kamui while Itachi will eventually fall to the strain of the MS. Normal stipulations Itachi gets low diffed at worst.



My good sir, by any chance do you think that Jiraiya could beat Pain if put in the same scenario but had knowledge, like Pain claimed?


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 13, 2018)

I think most of kabuto being strong


Bonly said:


> My good sir, by any chance do you think that Jiraiya could beat Pain if put in the same scenario but had knowledge, like Pain claimed?


How dare you doubt our Lord Saviour Lord Jiraiya


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## Bonly (Dec 13, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> I think most of kabuto being strong
> 
> How dare you doubt our Lord Saviour Lord Jiraiya



I do no such thing my good sir, I'm a faithful believe in the great Toad lord and will fight those foolhardy fiends that doubt his win against Pain with a passion!


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 13, 2018)

He had prep and couldn’t do anything with it besides rely on a fail safe , he knew Obito’s abilites well enough and fell in line and we know for sure he was willing to kill him , I say push but ultimately no.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

Agreed with the above poster . Itachi without a doubt in my mind if he were capable of killing obito in a 1 vs 1 fight he no doubt would have .


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## Sapherosth (Dec 14, 2018)

Eliyua23 said:


> He had prep and couldn’t do anything with it besides rely on a fail safe , he knew Obito’s abilites well enough and fell in line and we know for sure he was willing to kill him , I say push but ultimately no.




Itachi was prepping for Sasuke...Lmfao. 

Obito was just a side. You're talking as if Itachi prepared some elaborate plan specifically to kill Obito. Itachi simply planted amateratsu in Sasuke just in case they come into contact. 

Even then, Obito HIMSELF said that "Fortunately, I kept some secrets from him. Otherwise, I would've been dead". This meant that Itachi didn't do it with full knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 14, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Obito got away, did he not?



The implication of excerpt boils down to the fact the underlying escape aid, ie. an as-of-yet unexplained element of series, was not Kamui, however.


> Are all of your arguments based on the absolute monstrosity that are the DBs? Oh yeah, and headcannon. The databooks contradict themselves half the time and will literally get disproven by the manga 2 chapters later. They are not reliable and tend to exaggerate to make things sound cool.



The databook-excerpts pertaining in regards to Obito's phase capabilities don't seem to be an exaggeration...?

Exaggerations are almost always followed by a "!!" in almost all databook excerpts. The excerpt isn't extrapolating on/portraying the flames being of a god tier's level of potency, rather, that the entity being it's victim had pretty much the entirety of arsenal wholly neutralized when, battling the flames to the point culminative of rendering oneself theoretically unable in producing use of a jutsu maneuver whether be - Fuin, Tai, Gen, Nin-jutsu.


> No? Not sure what you mean here given the man has an eyeball that acts as a portal.



The underlying theoreticals & implicated ideas of details of the occurrence, and potential deficits/dysfunctionalities of the occurrence are explained - in depth.


*Spoiler*: _Extrapolation._ 



The _hologrammic imagery_ being _factually_ the _existential criteria_, ie. he cannot _physically return_ w/o a "husk" that behaves like a _container_ to contain the _physical compartments _of the body _intrinsically_.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

we don’t know how he survived Amaterasu .The secrets thing is referring to either itachi wasn’t aware that he could warp Amaterasus flames away or maybe itachi wasn’t aware of the absolute defense of kamuis intangibility.  or izanagi . If itachi could simply prep and kill obito he would have. sage light your making literally no sense rn. ^^^head cannon ....none of that Mumbo jumbo pertains to kamui ,it works how it works. Your just throwing words around...are we really going to say that transcription seal Amaterasu was him not prepping to kill Obito ? How is him hiding a sealed ms technique In his younger brothers eyes meant to react to obitos eyes in the event of obito approaching sasuke . That’s pretty friggin elaborate tbh ....He is the only user of the technique for all we know we know he could have made that technique specially for obito as it also reacted only to obitos sharingan if that’s not prep idk what is .if itachi thought that would kill Obito I can imagine what would he try face to face and as cool as itachi is obito shrugged off Amaterasu pretty quickly. If he used izanagi to escape he would have lost an eye so he probably just used kamui .


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## Serene Grace (Dec 14, 2018)

Bonly said:


> My good sir, by any chance do you think that Jiraiya could beat Pain if put in the same scenario but had knowledge, like Pain claimed?


I believe Itachi beats Obito with knowledge and prep(whether small or not) as canon stated. Same as with Pein and Jiraiya in that Jiraiya can most likely pull a win or a scenario where Pein doesn't win if he knew the secert

People can deny it but character statements about said character matter


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## Serene Grace (Dec 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> Just like Jman cant beat Pain with knowledge
> 
> Pains and Obitos later feats undoubtedly contradict the statements that suggest Itachi or Jman have a snowballs chance.


So basically the usual "hurr durr know more about a character's strength than said character themselves"


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

I’ve never seen it suggested that itachi could beat obito and j man def couldn’t . I’ve seen only contrary . Death and strawberry. You can always believe what you will of course I can’t deny that itachi is a monster and he’ll always be a threat to Obito whether I believe he will win or not aside .


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## Sapherosth (Dec 14, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I believe Itachi beats Obito with knowledge and prep(whether small or not) as canon stated. Same as with Pein and Jiraiya in that Jiraiya can most likely pull a win or a scenario where Pein doesn't win if he knew the secert
> 
> People can deny it but character statements about said character matter




You have to start taking context into consideration. 

1. How did Obito feel about Itachi? What's their relationship? What did it say exactly? 

Itachi is Obito's enemy. That much is clear. The statement said that he himself *would've died *from Itachi's "trap" if he had not hidden some things from Itachi. Any reason to doubt it? No. 



2. In Pain's case, we know that Jiraiya and Nagato were masters and pupil. They are enemies. What did the statement say exactly? 

Pain said something along the lines of "If we had not kept our secret, *we wouldn't have won*"...This doesn't mean Pain would lose at all. This could simply mean Jiraiya retreating with his intel which could be considered as Pain not "winning". After this sentence, Pain went on to say "*I can give you no higher praise, master*". 

What does this mean? It means that Pain was giving Jiraiya the maximum respect as his master. The fact that he said he cannot give Jiraiya "higher praise" simply means that there's no way Jiraiya could win. He may have survived, but winning against Pain was never implied.


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> You have to start taking context into consideration.
> 
> 1. How did Obito feel about Itachi? What's their relationship? What did it say exactly?
> 
> ...




Dont forget that Pain is fighting in his own city so no access to his strongest jutsus. 

And Itachi also thought Obito was madara, that would probably prevent him from challenging him. So Itachi not killing him cause he was scared is purely because he feared the name madara.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

I mean itachi isn’t dumb though he had to reason to believe he was madara and Obito with one ms abilities were described as “ a mirror image of madara in his prime “ idk I still think ms Obito is just underestimated . He still has regen and unlimited stamina and itachi has neither . Than there’s the whole you can’t hit him and all he has to do to utterly defeat you is touch you one time .


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> I mean itachi isn’t dumb though he had to reason to believe he was madara and Obito with one ms abilities were described as “ a mirror image of madara in his prime “ idk I still think ms Obito is just underestimated . He still has regen and unlimited stamina and itachi has neither . Than there’s the whole you can’t hit him and all he has to do to utterly defeat you is touch you one time .


My problem with that is that Torune showed he could hit him while being sucked up. That's a good moment for a jutsu to stop being sucked up. And itachi does have some goodies.


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## Prince Idonojie (Dec 14, 2018)

Tobi trained Itachi and taught him pretty much the Uchiha arts (meaning, he also has Full Knowledge), but all of the Uchiha Secrets that he taught Itachi were intentionally limited such that Itachi could never rise to a position of power to threaten him.

This was probably another reason why Tobi probably didn't give a damn to either enhance Itachi such that his sickness didn't kill him or even outright rid of the sickness altogether (and we know Tobi has extensive knowledge on these things, I.e abundance of extra Uchiha eyes in his lab , Hashirama cells implants... Zetsu).
The fact is, Itachi was simply Tobi's puppet through and through; and this is a fact that Itachi himself later admitted.

Itachi simply doesn't have the tools to oppose his sensei. He'd lose

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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

Even than he’s lost an arm twice in battle and still killed all opponents involved in said fights . Injury or pain won’t stop obito and he has shown to be able to switch between warping and intangibility fast enough to where even a combination attack from Gai and naruto using his moment of warp as a weakness and he still shifted in time to avoid an attack from Kcm naruto and almost simultaneously stole Gais weapons ... He isn’t as open as people think he is . He could also use that to his advantage and fool itachi into wasting attacks to which itachi having only moderate stamina would eventually tire.


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 14, 2018)

Sage light said:


> The implication of excerpt boils down to the fact the underlying escape aid, ie. an as-of-yet unexplained element of series, was not Kamui, however



So let's pretend it's some astral force protecting him and not Kamui like the SOURCE MATERIAL implies, because that makes a whole bunch of sense. 10/10


Sage light said:


> The databook-excerpts pertaining in regards to Obito's phase capabilities don't seem to be an exaggeration...?
> 
> Exaggerations are almost always followed by a "!!" in almost all databook excerpts. The excerpt isn't extrapolating on/portraying the flames being of a god tier's level of potency, rather, that the entity being it's victim had pretty much the entirety of arsenal wholly neutralized when, battling the flames to the point culminative of rendering oneself theoretically unable in producing use of a jutsu maneuver whether be - Fuin, Tai, Gen, Nin-jutsu


Yes, it does very much exaggerate. It says you can't escape while also showing a moment right before Obito ESCAPES.

So when A4 smashed Sasuke into the ground while his arm was on fire, he was unable to perform actions. He had his cloak and was actively using his chakra to keep it maintained.


Sage light said:


> The underlying theoreticals & implicated ideas of details of the occurrence, and potential deficits/dysfunctionalities of the occurrence are explained - in depth.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Extrapolation._ The _hologrammic imagery_ being _factually_ the _existential criteria_, ie. he cannot _physically return_ w/o a "husk" that behaves like a _container_ to contain the _physical compartments _of the body _intrinsically_



So what you're telling me is that Obito literally teleporting his entire body between dimensions is impossible because one side has to "husk". That is so very false as we see him leave "our" dimension entirely. Also, if he was vulnerable to "astral" attacks while warping portions of himself, that would have been capitlized on. Spirit weapons were introduced, so why not spirit Jutsu? Because it's irrelevant. They never did anything else with "astral" things because it doesn't matter either way and gives no clear advantage.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 14, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> My problem with that is that Torune showed he could hit him while being sucked up. That's a good moment for a jutsu to stop being sucked up. And itachi does have some goodies.


Obito  himself wrapped torune , Danzos lapdogs never tagged obito


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Obito  himself wrapped torune , Danzos lapdogs never tagged obito


Why did Obito have to rip off his arm?


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 14, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi was prepping for Sasuke...Lmfao.
> 
> Obito was just a side. You're talking as if Itachi prepared some elaborate plan specifically to kill Obito. Itachi simply planted amateratsu in Sasuke just in case they come into contact.
> 
> Even then, Obito HIMSELF said that "Fortunately, I kept some secrets from him. Otherwise, I would've been dead". This meant that Itachi didn't do it with full knowledge.



What I’m saying with all his prior knowledge he used an around about plan to step to Obito so what that tells me from what he saw he knew his abilites weren’t enough to take him down , he felt he wouldn’t even have got to Izanagi because let’s be real if you need a fail safe just to get around Kamui you aren’t getting off Inzanami on him 

Think Konan had massive prep time got thru Kamui and fell and she was in a more advantageous situation than Itachi ever could be just real shit man , Itachi didn’t think he could beat the guy .


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 14, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> Why did Obito have to rip off his arm?


Because he chose to catcch torune who had his body  covered with poison. Keeping enemy alive is one of the thing ninjas proterise until they face a certain death match


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## Bonly (Dec 14, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I believe Itachi beats Obito with knowledge and prep(whether small or not) as canon stated. Same as with Pein and Jiraiya in that Jiraiya can most likely pull a win or a scenario where Pein doesn't win if he knew the secert
> 
> People can deny it but character statements about said character matter



Ah ok, you threw me off for a second because the OP mentioned Itachi has both but you only mentioned a fight under normal conditions. I’ve been noticing that a lot of people who say Itachi can’t do it despite Obito’s statement will turn around and go with Pain’s statement for Jiraiya so I wasn’t sure which camp you was in


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## Serene Grace (Dec 14, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Ah ok, you threw me off for a second because the OP mentioned Itachi has both but you only mentioned a fight under normal conditions. I’ve been noticing that a lot of people who say Itachi can’t do it despite Obito’s statement will turn around and go with Pain’s statement for Jiraiya so I wasn’t sure which camp you was in


Didnt know he has prep

Itachi should win as pre canon then


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Because he chose to catcch torune who had his body  covered with poison. Keeping enemy alive is one of the thing ninjas proterise until they face a certain death match


My point is if Torune was able to land a final blow before he was sucked in, Itachi should have no issues doing the same.


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## dante1729 (Dec 14, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> My point is if Torune was able to land a final blow before he was sucked in, Itachi should have no issues doing the same.


Torune did not "land" anything on obito .  Obito simply could kill him with a kunai but instead he chosed to touch him.


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

dante1729 said:


> Torune did not "land" anything on obito .  Obito simply could kill him with a kunai but instead he chosed to touch him.


With a gloved hand at the most, when cloths and shit are shown to block the transfer. 

We don't even really see obito touch either of them. It is implied later in the manga he has to touch people but here he doesnt clearly touch either of them.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

I have the gif posted on this thread page 5 it’s very clear he has one hand on torune his arm wouldn’t get infected if he didn’t touch him though .


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 14, 2018)

made it clear

It does look like Obito grabbed Torune with both arms. Since only one of his arms was infected the implication is he took a hit, otherwise both arms would have been infected.

Regardless nothing is shown so it is impossible to confirm.

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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 14, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> So let's pretend it's some astral force protecting him and not Kamui like the SOURCE MATERIAL implies, because that makes a whole bunch of sense. 10/10



The implication of excerpt aligns with the factual evidence, that the power utilized on being an escape aid isn't Kamui, ie., not an arsenal of equipment widely renowned under the "jutsu" classification.

There factually exists no mount of proven evidence alluding he didn't consider the use of an anti-Ama kryptonitic associated equipment.


ThomasTheCat said:


> Yes, it does very much exaggerate. It says you can't escape while also showing a moment right before Obito ESCAPES.



There exist no mount of viable exaggeration on excerpt. The panel extrapolates on the occurence, mostly associating the occuring events on the Manga, via a due detail extrapolation factor of author additionally. After, it goes on to extrapolate the fact, a "jutsu" wasn't part of escape aiding, reinforcing an implication of non "jutsu" equipment on utilization on the eventual occurence.


ThomasTheCat said:


> So when A4 smashed Sasuke into the ground while his arm was on fire, he was unable to perform actions. He had his cloak and was actively using his chakra to keep it maintained.



There exists subtle differences in between both siblings' associated use of the black-flames, doesn't pertain to the current discussion however.



ThomasTheCat said:


> So what you're telling me is that Obito literally teleporting his entire body between dimensions is impossible because one side has to "husk". That is so very false as we see him leave "our" dimension entirely. Also, if he was vulnerable to "astral" attacks while warping portions of himself, that would have been capitlized on. Spirit weapons were introduced, so why not spirit Jutsu? Because it's irrelevant. They never did anything else with "astral" things because it doesn't matter either way and gives no clear advantage.



The embodiment shielding the interior body, ie. the outer imagery added by ripple mask, and clothing do not vanish during the transition a astral _phase_ occurs. The fact, implies the internal physical _organs_/flesh _compounds_ are the viable warpable commodities not the _exterior_ hologrammic-imagery. The "dimension-disappearance" _wholly _that you're referring to, doesn't occur whenever the man _singular-phases _(the certain portion of the physique in a single transition) ie.  2 distinct _visually_ observable manner of phase + are distinct, and uniquely dissimilar per visual implicated evidence.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

Implications just don’t stand here though sage light ^^ You need concrete proof . Your line of thought is not a bad one and it’s very inquisitive. Implied evidence isn’t evidence at all though .  if kishi wanted another layer of complications to Obito’s technique than he would have explained it in the manga .


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> I have the gif posted on this thread page 5 it’s very clear he has one hand on torune his arm wouldn’t get infected if he didn’t touch him though .





ShinAkuma said:


> made it clear
> 
> It does look like Obito grabbed Torune with both arms. Since only one of his arms was infected the implication is he took a hit, otherwise both arms would have been infected.
> 
> Regardless nothing is shown so it is impossible to confirm.


 What ShinAkuma said. Thanks, Babe, I know I can always count on you...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

I must say in the anime he clearly did not touch fuu when he absorbed him so there are a few little things lol


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

I guess maybe if you are standing in the warp he may not require hand contact maybe ??


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## kokodeshide (Dec 14, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> I guess maybe if you are standing in the warp he may not require hand contact maybe ??


Or maybe when he has direct contact with you he can suck you in faster? Shit maybe that is why he does it later, to avoid counters.


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## Darkscion (Dec 14, 2018)

Maybe so lol . Kind of would be nice if they would have clarified that more so than they did at least . I guess maybe when they inserted the hand contact thing perhaps that was retconning the certain instances that he did teleport people without it . So maybe we just pretend he did have contact ha


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 14, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So basically the usual "hurr durr know more about a character's strength than said character themselves"


Really?

This the fucking hill you wanna die on right now?

All right fine

Do yourself a favor

...Then contemplate how fucking ironic this high horse of yours is

Read chapters 430-442...Preferably without Jiraiyas crotch in your face for once, then realize the fact the author just cockslapped you with at least 12 additional reasons why chapter 378s first page is set in stone.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> People can deny it but character statements about said character matter


> "People can deny it but Im right"
> Denies the fact Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya
> Denies the fact Naruto knew everything Jiraiya knew by teh end of facing Pain and even more
> Denies the fact Naruto lost to a NERFED Pain
> Actually fucking thinks Jiraiya beats a FULL POWER PAIN where a stronger Sage failed to beat a weakened Pain
> Actually fucking thinks Jiraiya has a shot against an opponent that KN6 lost to when KN4 cockslapped Jman an inch away from death
> Strawberry tries to fucking talk down about me misinterpreting a characters strength
> Completely and totally ignores every negative aspect of Jiraiyas strength while he does it

Usual TDS Jman wank bullshit

Hows that hill?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Dec 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Really?
> 
> This the fucking hill you wanna die on right now?
> 
> ...


He won’t be dying on this hill. The Cult of Jiraiya will carry him to the top and get him to medical evac while over running your position with our numbers, WorldsStrongest.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> He won’t be dying on this hill. The Cult of Jiraiya will carry him to the top and get him to medical evac


Well at least you acknowledge the futility and the weakness of his position if you admit he needs medical attention 


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> while over running your position with our numbers


 


A greater number of incorrect voices all screaming the same inane babble doesnt change the credibility of the argument

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sapherosth (Dec 14, 2018)

Eliyua23 said:


> What I’m saying with all his prior knowledge he used an around about plan to step to Obito so what that tells me from what he saw he knew his abilites weren’t enough to take him down , he felt he wouldn’t even have got to Izanagi because let’s be real if you need a fail safe just to get around Kamui you aren’t getting off Inzanami on him
> 
> Think Konan had massive prep time got thru Kamui and fell and she was in a more advantageous situation than Itachi ever could be just real shit man , Itachi didn’t think he could beat the guy .




What do you mean Itachi didn't think he could beat Obito? Obito HIMSELF said that Itachi could kill him. 

Obito already told us the reason of that Amateratsu. To "Keep Obito away". It's just a second measure.


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## Darkscion (Dec 15, 2018)

I felt like Obito was more along the lines of expressing happiness that itachi wasn’t aware of either the full extant of kamui’s abilities or izanagi. If itachi actually thought he could kill obito im sure he would have .Itachis main goal was protection of konoha and Obitos goals jeopardize konoha. I just think if he really knew he could beat Obito why play nice and work for the guy . He was awestruck by obitos power enough that he didn’t even question whether or not he really was madara . He actually discovered madara in the first place and immediately assumed he really was madara .


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## Hi no Ishi (Dec 15, 2018)

Lawrence777 said:


> I know right, people don't learn from things. I mean just the other day for example there was a thread with people claiming FRS could penetrate Susano'o, when the author made it clear it wouldn't penetrate Susano'o, but that doesn't stop thoughts of FRS somehow penetrating Susano'o from propagating anyway. It's the fake news curse of NBD .


Depends on which Naruto and which Rasenshruiken


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## Mar55 (Dec 15, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Since only one of his arms was infected the implication is he took a hit,


That's incorrect, you can see Obito's hand grabbing Torune's arm in the second panel.

He didn't counterattack, the bugs were an aftereffect of using Kamui. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Xel (Dec 15, 2018)

Obito didn't really care about losing his arm (remember, he ripped it off nonchalantly), so he grabbed Torune without worrying too much. I bet if losing an arm was an issue he would have been extra careful.


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## Darkscion (Dec 15, 2018)

Lilliane von Phoenix funny you mention that .I’ve mentioned this in another thread that losing an arm for someone like jiraiya in his fight against pain was detrimental he didn’t lose immediately but we could clearly see that the injury was severe and that he was losing a lot of blood . Obito lacks any of those issues and he’s actually been grievously injured many times and he always shrugs it off . Sasuke gets a sword stab through the heart and instantly dies . Obito got his heart completely removed from his chest and still smirks , coughs up blood and than teleports back to the top of the juubis head and begins sealing it . Pain doesn’t even slow him down .


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## ThomasTheCat (Dec 16, 2018)

Sage light said:


> There factually exists no mount of proven evidence alluding he didn't consider the use of an anti-Ama kryptonitic associated equipment


You know what? You're right. But you know what else? There exists no evidence whatsoever for your claim besides the irrelevant databooks that twist things (Like saying Hebi Sasuke can neg the entire Akatsuki 1v1 because he is just so damn fast) which you proceed to twist even further. The burden of _proof_ (not speculation based on non-canon material) lies on you. I don't have to prove anything, but you do.



Sage light said:


> There exist no mount of viable exaggeration on excerpt. The panel extrapolates on the occurence, mostly associating the occuring events on the Manga, via a due detail extrapolation factor of author additionally. After, it goes on to extrapolate the fact, a "jutsu" wasn't part of escape aiding, reinforcing an implication of non "jutsu" equipment on utilization on the eventual occurence.


So where in the _manga_ was this hinted at? Please send a scan. I'll wait.


Sage light said:


> There exists subtle differences in between both siblings' associated use of the black-flames, doesn't pertain to the current discussion however.


Yeah, _subtle_. Sasuke can shoot his on arrows, whoopdedoe. The basic function is identical. They both burn shit. Nothing implies that their basic principle is different, especially with Sasuke's use of Amaterasu  is identical to how Itachi uses it. Yes, this is relevant.


Sage light said:


> The "dimension-disappearance" _wholly _that you're referring to, doesn't occur whenever the man _singular-phases _


Yes it quite clearly does. That is the entire reason Kakashi could hit him.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 16, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> You know what? You're right. But you know what else? There exists no evidence whatsoever for your claim besides the irrelevant databooks that twist things (Like saying Hebi Sasuke can neg the entire Akatsuki 1v1 because he is just so damn fast) which you proceed to twist even further. The burden of _proof_ (not speculation based on non-canon material) lies on you. I don't have to prove anything, but you do.



By your logic, every single DB excerpt could be discarded in the name of hyperbole. Discretion is advised. The factual indicators of hyperbolic speech are as extrapolated prior "!!". The author simply is factually unveiling a hint behind the truth of the event that occurred behind the scenes.  Especially excerpts extrapolating on cannonically transpired occurences via Manga panel imagery is logically cannot be hyperbolic. 

That doesn't even begin to induce reason or make sense. There's a reason the otherwise straight up straight forward author chose to beat around the bush regarding the nitty-gritties of the event. He'd state or imply outright if the narrative is like you're miscontruing, however he implies the opposite.


ThomasTheCat said:


> So where in the _manga_ was this hinted at? Please send a scan. I'll wait.



The hint was actually _nonexistent_ in the Manga though. The reason why he addressed the implication regarding the event shrouded in mystery. Although he does imply he never successfully cast _Kamui_ ie. Deidara knew the machinations behind the jutsu, I'd expect Itachi to _at the least_ have equally as much intel. So basically, the jutsu factually is _preordained_ to fail.


ThomasTheCat said:


> Yeah, _subtle_. Sasuke can shoot his on arrows, whoopdedoe. The basic function is identical. They both burn shit. Nothing implies that their basic principle is different, especially with Sasuke's use of Amaterasu  is identical to how Itachi uses it. Yes, this is relevant.



Actually no. His brother's basically behaves akin to a projectile like fashion. However, his version totally and factually observably showcased mildly distinct effects. Additionally, is claimed to appear on the foe's physique when positioned onto the caster's LOS. 

I don't think it's quite relevant to the discussion, however. 


ThomasTheCat said:


> Yes it quite clearly does. That is the entire reason Kakashi could hit him.



The "vanishing" is mildly differentiated by the fact the caster manifests materially on the due the said process occurs. On the other hand, manifesting immaterially necessitates the person render stationary. By the sense that said warping induces materiality.


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## Hi no Ishi (Dec 16, 2018)

Since the databook says the ability that lets him dodge attacks and slip through space is the one that he used to neg Amaterasu, and we know his space time jutsu is Kamui, I don't see how this is a fight. 
on top of that:

Obito has better genjutsu feats, better speed feats, better strength feats, more experience, a better arsenal, more stamina, Regen, more angles he can attack from, is a sensor unlike Itachi, and is almost impossible to hit.

He also has better portrayal.

He mid diffs at worst.


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## Bonly (Dec 16, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Didnt know he has prep
> 
> Itachi should win as pre canon then


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## Darkscion (Dec 17, 2018)

Yep he’s still not getting around kamui ...he couldn’t get around kamui / izanagi with a sneak attack after his own death why would he be able to in a face to face confrontation .


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## Esdese (Dec 17, 2018)

YES


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 17, 2018)

Kawaii Butterfly Turning Into Jojo said:


> YES



How'd you say a battle w/o intel or considerable prep time would go?


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## Esdese (Dec 17, 2018)

Sage light said:


> How'd you say a battle w/o intel or considerable prep time would go?



Itachi win all scenarios. He has an OP susauno with the blade and mirror. He as broken genjutsus. And he was keeping up with post-nintails chakra cloak speed. Plus the 1st hokage said he was better than him, maybe not in power at the time but in potential at least. And Madara and obito were scared of him while he was alive. They didn't make a move on Sasuke until he was dead.


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## Darkscion (Dec 17, 2018)

First hokage was strictly referring to itachi’s actions as a ninja. He had never met itachi in life. He knew nothing about his potential. He had been reanimated like 5 minutes before that statement your referring to and his genjutsu is nullified by Obitos genjutsu feats .That and the fact that sasuke using A regular 3 tomoe sharingan nullified itachis most powerful genjutsu .I consider Obito’s genjutsu feats to be much more impressive than 3 tomoe sharingan sasuke and he even has the mangekyou. Plus obito can walk right through susanoo and yatas mirror so they most likely won’t be of much use ... Obito was not “scared” of Itachi and Madara didn’t even know who itachi was . Most likely neither were particularly scared of the other . Obito made a deal with Itachi in regards to the leaf village . He already knew itachi was going to die and he wanted to use  his death to help sway sasuke so that’s why he didn’t make a move on sasuke . itachi was doing Obito’s bidding and he even did things he normally wouldn’t .


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 21, 2018)

Obito already admitted inferiority to Itachi on panel, there is no getting around it. " Thankfully, Itachi didn't know everything about me, or I would be dead". Obito legit said that all Itachi needs to kill him is full knowledge on Kamui. The databook confirmed that he survived amaterasu via kamui.

I see people citing scans about Kamui to make it seem like the dude is untouchable. He still has to materialize to attack and absorb things, and even Fuu and Torune could deduce that weakness after seeing it an action a few times. Even konan nearly one shotted him (before busting out the 600 billion bombs).  Konan is the same person who couldn't dodge a basic technique from Base Jiraiya that she knew was her weakness.

Obito did well against Kakashi Guy and Naruto and Bee because they weren't using much deception at first. Obito is listed as a sensor type and he has the sharingan and incredible reflexes. You can't beat him by showing your tactics, he will see through it. That's why Konan relied on deception. That's why Kakashi's kamui came in handy, because obito couldn't predict Kakashi's kamui. He legit thought that he killed the KCM2 Naruto shadow clone even though kakashi was warping it right in front of his face. Unfortunately for Obito, Itachi relies on deception and expert clone feints. Itachi is skilled enough to clone feint a perfect sage and the EMS sharingan.

When has Obito ever shown better genjutsu feats outside of the Mizukage manipulation? Mizukage was supposedly a perfect jinchuriki, so that doesn't even make sense. They obviously stretched the definition of perfect jinchuriki, because no genjutsu bar maybe IT should be unbreakable by partner method. If his genjutsu was so good why didn't he use it on naruto and bee? Obito isn't a genjutsu specialist and he isn't as versatile as Itachi is.  Itachi was legit hyped for his genjutsu capablities all throughout the manga, even being able to control people outside the range of sensors. With just 30 percent of his chakra, he pinned down an Uzumaki who has way more chakra than him, and Genjutsu literally requires you to forcibly control the chakra in the target's brain.

Tobi HIMSELF said that Itachi was holding back in almost every way in the Sasuke fight, and even SASUKE realized it too. How is Sasuke breaking a Tsykuyomi from a sick, holding back Itachi any indication of healthy Itachi's genjutsu being weaker than Obito's?


As usual, for whatever reason people do not acknowledge the clear feats and statements delegated to the Yata mirror. 
Chapter 392 pg 10  mirror expanding in size to counter snakes
Chapter 393 pg 6 mirror expanding in height
Chapter 393 pg 8 mirror expanding to almost cover Susano'o with 360 degree protection
Chapter 393 pg 9 Yata mirror covering the front and side of Susano'o.

The Yata mirror is truly an automated defense like Gaara's sand, but infinitely better.

Even if Obito can phase through susano'o, the second he materializes the Yata mirror would stop his attacks, as per canon. Itachi wouldn't need the yata mirror to beat obito though in my opinion. 

What people don't realize is that Itachi doesn't clone feint the way naruto does. Naruto made a bunshin and charged at Obito in a way that Obito could see it coming. Itachi doesn't do that. He substituted with a clone and nearly instantly got behind part one kakashi. He got stabbed by Kabuto and near instantly substituted with a crow clone and got behind Kabuto.
EMS sasuke couldn't track it. Obito's MS doesn't stand a chance. 

Itachi still has incredible handseal speed and has never showed to be a slouch in physical running speed. He can keep up with Obito if Fuu and Torune could at least force him to use kamui a few times. Even Base Guy could keep up with Obito.


The way I see a fight going down between Obito and Itachi is that since Obito managed to hide kamui from Itachi, as per canon, Itachi doesn't know about it. However, even going by Itachi's part one feats, he would be able to quickly analyze it. Itachi has been shown to fire a ninjutsu than immeidately substitute with a clone and move behind his target. If the fight is on land, I see him testing the waters with a katon after seeing obito phase through his shurikens. As per canon, Obito feared Itachi, so Obito would run and  phase through the fire ball, and immediately try to warp Itachi away. Unfortunately, the clone turned out to be an exploding clone. Itachi then totsuka blade's from behind. This is the exact same combo he did to kakashi and Kabuto. Ninjutsu as a diversion then seemingly untraceable clone feint for the win. Kakashi only lasted as long as he did, by his own admission, that Itachi was holding back, and just by virtue of the fact kakashi always substitutes with clones when he gets line of sight blockers. Obito has never shown clone feinting feats, so he loses.

If obito fires shurikens from boxland? Itachi could wall those with rib cage susano'o and cast katon. Then the fight ends the same way as above.

If obito fires his kamui style katon? Itachi just launches the totuska blade through the fire and oneshots Obito.  Obito has to materialize to attack , which he very clearly does when he is using katon. The blade is absurdly fast as neither Orochimaru or Nagato could perceive it's speed. Obito could likely do it in a neutral situation , but now he is blinded by his own fireball, so it's harder to see. 


There is a reason why Obito was a lot more careful regarding Itachi than he usually is with other people, and this is the same dude who knew all about Minato's speed and still underestimated it. Itachi has shown better skill, better versality, better technique speed, better clone feinting, and better intelligence.  Obito being more experienced is possible but it doesn't matter because Itachi's arsenal and method of fighting are unorthodox and not something Obito has fought before.


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## Darkscion (Dec 21, 2018)

Yata’s Mirror is a shield it’s held by susanoo . Obito will walk through both susanoo and yata. Yata isn’t going to be forming around itachi like a 360 form fitting shield. Totsuka isn’t faster than raikage , obito reacted to him at almost point blank with no warning. Itachi hasn’t shown better of any of the things you mentioned . Your just stating your opinion and that’s fine . I want manga scans of itachi’s “superior speed” and “intelligence “ Obito is as smart or smarter than itachi any day of the week . Your just saying those things because that’s what you think ....Itachi has no way of hurting obito. He has fought 4 opponents at once and all 4 of them are around itachi level as far as speed goes and they still couldn’t land a single attack without using obitos eye itachi will not  outperform the 8 and 9 tails simultaneously and obito fought them kakashi and Gai . Just one touch and itachi is gone forever . He has no way of avoiding it forever considering his meager chakra supplies . Obito on the other hand has nearly limitless stamina and chakra .


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## Darkscion (Dec 21, 2018)

Orochimaru didn’t react because of his own power of the white snake which he assumed would allow him to survive a sword wound he wasn’t aware itachi was in possession of the totsuka blade . Nagato had his vision obscured and was being triple teamed by itachi, kyuubi , and hachibi Jin’s so stop pretending he would’ve been just fine on his own because they needed to work together to stop Nagato.


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 21, 2018)

@Darkscion

Look, if you aren't going to admit that we clearly see the Yata mirror almost taking a sphere shape on panel, changing it's height and shape to adapt to attacks, I will respectfully request to agree to disagree and drop the point because I am not going back and forth on something clearly shown in the manga, because you are going against Kishimoto. All those panels I cited showed the mirror adapting, even adapting more than necessary at times. The mirror stops Obito's attacks, as per canon. Going against the author is an uphill battle.

Obito admitted inferiority in Chapter 397, so arguing against Obito himself is another uphill battle.

Itachi didn't "need help". Help was there and he decided to use it because he said himself that regardless of how powerful one is they shouldn't take on everything by themselves lmao.  IF he needed so much help then why do we see Nagato one shotted on panel, lol? He could have done that at any point, even when he blindsided Nagato from the side with a Susano'o hand.

Headcanon, Orochimaru clearly said "EH?" when he was struck by the blade. It means he was caught off guard by how fast the stabbing motion of the blade was, and he literally didn't see it coming because it was too fast for his optic nerve. His comments afterward had nothing to do with the fact that he got blitzed.

Nagato was watching naruto itachi and bee from a distance as he got oneshotted by Totsuka , end of story. Last I checked, Itachi doesn't need a naruto or a bee to swing his blade.

Your abc logic doesn't hold up. Itachi fights differently than how naruto and friends do, so it's a moot point.
We see in Chapter 580 pg 12-15, EMS Sasuke and Kabuto were unable to track the formation Itachi's crow clone as he was pierced by the sword.

Name even one character that Obito has faced that has clone feinted that way. Naruto didn't do that. He made his clones right in front of Obito where obito could see them. When Itachi clone feints, Obito won't notice it. Obito wasn't fast enough to successfully tag and warp away Base guy in their brief taijutsu skimrishes. IDK where this speed of his you are describing is coming from. Phasing speed? sure. But his regular speed is nothing particularly special.


Idk what else to tell you. Itachi has been commended for his intellect and wisdom by foes and enemies alike, and guess what , even by OBITO lmao. Obito's mind was blown by Itachi's planning skills lmao, he said it in Chapter 397,... and yet Itachi isn't outsmarting him in battle?  I really don't get this... Obito is ok at intelligence, he is experienced and skilled but he makes stupid mistakes. He was legit surprised that Minato teleported to his FTG kunai for FTG level 2 when Minato was his sensei. He underestimated Konan a fellow Akatsuki member and got outsmarted and was almost one shotted by her first major attack. Itachi doesn't underestimate people.

Totsuka Blade being faster or slower than V2 Ayy is pure speculation. The point of the matter is Nagato couldn't react, and you even ignored the context in which I stated that Obito would be caught off guard due to being blinded by his large orange katon coming out of his face.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkscion (Dec 22, 2018)

Itachi would be blinded by that attack as well it’s larger than the juubi. Your spouting 100 percent your own story here bro . I know what happened in the manga and I’m not trying to add any new events in there . If you really think yata works like that than it sounds like itachi must be unbeatable in your mind lol. I didn’t see yata’s mirror do anything like that ,it defended him from frontal attacks but I never saw it do anything even close to what your saying .... so idk what your talking about anyways and obito can still walk right through it or just teleport away and come out of the ground . Naruto was closing his eyes and using sensing to avoid getting warped and itachi isn’t even a sensor .... Obito is literally just an all around more powerful uchiha tbh . You sound like you have it all figured out though man so I’ll just end on this note .


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## Xel (Dec 22, 2018)

Look guys, I don't even care about Obito but I don't think his "fight" against Fuu and Torune can count as anything cause he was pretty much fucking with them the entire time. As for them figuring out Kamui, well they didn't really figure out the entire mechanics behind it, they just pointed out what they saw. And I say it as someone who adores Fuu.


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## Darkscion (Dec 22, 2018)

As far as the speed thing for obito goes . Itachi’s speed has never been declared greater than obito’s so for you to sit there and try say it is for a fact better just means that would be head cannon as that was never detailed in the manga . That and both of their speed feats are pretty similar tbh all I was saying was don’t try to act like itachi is going to run circles around Obito when 4 extremely fast ninja using teamwork and attacking together couldn’t do shit with speed alone . Itachi is likely physically weaker as well b/c as obito has zetsu parts .He also has minimal stamina reserves So idk where your getting all this stuff about itachi being superior and having superior showings because obito has some pretty insane feats and I myself have only ever seen evidence to the contrary .


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## Darkscion (Dec 22, 2018)

Also his phasing speed is what makes him essentially invincible so don’t underestimate the importance of that either . I know very well itachi fights differently I’ve been watching his fights for a decade lol itachi fighting obito would be no different than obito fighting a group of people who were using his own eye against him and even strategically at that . They still ended up failing though his plans succeeded . Itachi won’t have all the benefits they had in that battle either .He also outsmarted madara in that moment as well and sealed the ten tails against madara’s will . Showing his likewise powerful will as well as intelligence he knew everything about itachi and itachi wasn’t even aware of that . So no more of the itachi is smarter than obito garbage either . Obito is THE mastermind . He created naruto and sasuke’s predicaments.


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 22, 2018)

Like I said I don't  what to tell you. You ignored like 90 percent of my points, and are being dishonest. The mirror expanded in size and shape on those panels I referenced. Even on Chapter 393 pg 8 the mirror is almost reaching the backside of Susano'o. So let's end it here indeed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkscion (Dec 23, 2018)

Ok just saying I really did check out that manga chapter 393 page 8 and It seemed a bit more wide than usual but it wasn’t around the back of him at all or even close . Watched the anime as well and didnt see yata circling itachi 360 degrees.They would have portrayed that to some degree in the anime and they would have brought it up more in the manga as well . I don’t think yata does that. It’s a shield and it must be positioned at least to a certain extant .


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## Prince Idonojie (Dec 23, 2018)

Obito is the Emperor Sidious, and Itachi is his Darth Vader. Obito likely took him in as a stripling, manipulated a whole bunch of unfortunate circumstances to awaken the hatred needed to fuel him for MS (that's essentially what Madara did to Obito, he manipulated the circumstances which awakened his MS and break down Obito's psyche into being "No One".... Obito learned not only power from Madara but also the art of manipulation). Obito also taught Itachi the MS--he knew EVERYTHING about Itachi's power, he even knew Itachi's plan to rid of Orochimaru's influence and he knew what that ordeal entails, which means Obito even knew how Itachi thinks; ultimately Itachi was Obito's puppet, trapped in Obito's masterful genjutsu and wasn't strong enough to break free from Obito's strings.

Sasuke would've become like Itachi also, Obito's puppet--he was for a while if you think about it because Obito was the creator of Itachi, the hatred-driven, murderer of his own clan, and Obito was right there with him murdering the clan, coincidence? I think not! Obito probably fueled Itachi's hatred into doing what Danzou and the elders were contemplating about the Uchiha... so just like Anakin Skywalker was manipulated by Emperor Sidious into killing even Jedi babies for 'fear of them growing up to one day perpetuate a cycle', Itachi was manipulated into doing the same... eventually Anakin was enslaved and became Darth Vader just like Itachi also was enslaved. By having Sasuke walk Itachi's path filled with hatred, Sasuke fell right into the masterful Obito's hands. Itachi was a slave to the darkside and was manipulated into being a part of Obito's (not Nagato's or Yahiko) Akatsuki (read the Konan vs Obito's fight for further clarification on this and why Akatsuki was ultimately an extension of Obito's hatred). Naruto is the Luke Skywalker, Saviour of Prophecy in this story. He threw a monkey wrench on Obito's plans on a phycological level hence Obito's puppets started to break free from his chains (i.e Nagato, Konan... even Itachi was excited by Naruto and glad that his little brother Sasuke was deeply cared for by Naruto).

This forum is not giving Obito enough credit imo (possibly because Kishi tried to write a compelling story about the Shinobi world and breaking cycle of hatred in it but it proved to be a collosal undertaking, and much of what Kishi built suffered... anyway, I won't get into that). Obito appears weak, even foolish at times (just like Emperor Sidious) to give others a false sense of security. I don't for one second think Obito regarded Itachi in any capacity, even his threat to stay off Konoha (Sasuke) he probably found amusing at best, why? What the hell can Itachi do to even stop him, that's why! Tobi manipulates Space/Time, thus you can't even track his movements let alone intercepted them, so if Obito truly wanted to, Sasuke would've be dead quicker than Itachi could blink (he could've killed him at Vote 1 for example and non would ever be able to link it to him doing it). If Obito also wanted to destroy Konoha, Itachi CANNOT stop him! The reality is, Obito could literally destroy Itachi without raising a finger to do so. How?  With his army of Akatsuki through his masterful manipulation, that's how! I'm sure no sane person here would dare say Itachi could've faced the whole of Akatsuki now, right?

As far as I'm concerned, no member in Akatsuki could defeat Obito; forget this idea that Itachi even stands a ghost of a chance if I'm doubtful of even Nagato's chances. Obito took on Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, Bee (speed demons) all at the same time coming at him with the intent to strike him down yet Obito didn't appear weak in any capacity, and a few of you honestly think his slave, Itachi by his lonesome self can accomplish that feat? Gemme a break! With what power?

Even with full knowledge, it is still too tall an order for Itachi as far as I'm concerned. I'm going with what Minato once said, you need a "special power" to fight Obito. Itachi simply does NOT have that special power.


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## StandingMan (Dec 23, 2018)

Itachi henges as Rin to draw Obito close and stabs him with the Toksuka blade.

Low diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Dec 23, 2018)

Shit with prep and full Intel. Konan would beat majority of the verse herself. Hell even Jiraiya with full intel and prep could win with Frog Song. Orochimaru with the same prep would stomp just about everyone....even then I'm unsure Itachi wins because he doesnt add much with prep.

This isnt that impressive.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 23, 2018)

In terms of plans and exectiom Itachi  doesnot compare to Obito. Being a more imp villian obito would always have backups  for even backups


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## A Optimistic (Dec 23, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Unlikely.
> 
> Obito is simply better than him at everything...



Can't believe I'm agreeing with Hussain.


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## Darkscion (Dec 23, 2018)

Obito when determined has insane willpower too . Like I said earlier he mentally over powered madara at one point . Obito’s back up plans have back plans for crying out loud .


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## kokodeshide (Dec 24, 2018)

Out of every possible match up that is actually a worth while fight, This is the one where people opinions confuse me the most. Why is everyone so high on obito? How is he superior in everyway? We have basically seen the dude get his ass kicked more times than anyone in the series. We have seen that if you take away Kamui, he literally becomes a weaker Kakashi. Itachi at 30 percent power and no Mangekyo was even with Kakashi. Obito literally is ONLY a Kamui fighter. 

Itachi has superior Taijutsu, no problems with kakashi, KCM naruto or Acrobat Bee.
Itachi has superior Ninjutsu, His susanoo wields totsuka and the yata mirror. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are 1 hit kills to nearly anyone.
Itachi has superior Genjutsu, 70 year tsukuyomi. Ephemeral. 
Itachi has superior speed and reaction time. First shown by his clear superiority over Obitos equal kakashi, again by dodging Bee's blindside attack and then almost blitzing him soon after. Obito showed no such ability against anyone, ever. 
Itachi himself has basic durability. Whereas Obito has way higher durability and also has regen. Although basic punches from kakashi hurt him pretty bad.
Itachi has fairly underrated stamina. Outlasted sasuke while using MS during their fight. Obito has seemingly endless fuckin chakra.
Strength is pretty unknown. But Itachi seemingly handled naruto and Bees strength just fine. Obito did as well, but Kakashi wasn't overwhelmed by his power so i'd say its a tie leaning slightly in obitos favor.
Intelligence. To say Itachi is superior is an understatement. Obito, with a, youcannevertouchmeability, has been hit more times than whitney houston. The dude constantly overestimates himself and underestimates everyone else. He is constantly PMSing. You may argue that Obito is as smart as itachi. But my counter argument would be, maybe, but he is DEFINITELY more stupid than itachi, that is for damn sure.
So Obito clearly wins in 2 out of the 9 things I listed. and arguably wins a 3rd.  So to say that Itachi loses is to say that Kamui is soooooo fuckin godly, that it can make Obito overcome an IMMENSE gap in ability to beat a person who has several one hit kills. Kamui sure as shit isn't the hottest shit on the market seeing as a basic paper bomb counter turned Obito into a car accident victim. It has also been figured out by just about everyone who has seen it. He was in the damn shadows of akatsuki not as some sort of underground leader, he was doing that cause he was weak as fuck. He needed to gain power before actually joining. Obito is the great pretender, and he has fooled every one of you guys as well. It is as clear as day in the manga, Obito was foooling everyone, barely scraping by because of his hax sharingan. Think about how ANY Akatsuki member deals with Fuu and Torune. Could you imagine any of them going longer than a brief 2 millesecond scuffle with Danzos goons before casually killing them? Even Hidan likely embarrases them, badly. Yet he lost a fuckin arm. By his own doing, sure, or he could have just killed him another way. Basically, any person in Akatsuki has done, or would do, better against any of his opponents. If Obito had tried to capture Gaara, he would have left the sand village looking like the dad from Oblongs. google it.


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## Darkscion (Dec 24, 2018)

Even if he was an “only kamui” fighter he will always have kamui so that is irrelevant and itachi has no counter for kamui . Naruto in kcm is as fast as the Raikage . Obito kept up with him and 3 other people at once and any 1 of those 3 people could give itachi a run for his money . Kakashi actually improved his speed after the time skip to be more close to equal to itachi as well . Itachi is around equal to sasuke in speed and he is very fast with throwing weapons. Obito easily reacted to a chidori from sasuke , the same sasuke who was around equal to itachi . Itachi looked about equal to Kcm naruto speed and that’s milking it . He isn’t raikage speed and obito reacted to a point blank raikage blitz pretty effortlessly . Just because you think these things doesn’t make them fact. The only thing that matters are feats . Obito hasn’t really lost many fights actually . Minato injured a legit child obito ( 14 years old ) minato still ended up dying that day though . He Gave his own life to ensure that his son had a ghost of a chance of stopping obito. Juubito practically wanted to lose as it was explained . He is among the most powerful characters in the whole verse .

He is more powerful than kakashi. So idk what your talking about . He can use all the six paths techs even without kamui and his outer path usage was shown to be arguably superior to Nagato’s . Wood release , regen , durability surpassing almost anyone else in the entire series . He planned his fight with kakashi he planned it so perfectly intimately well that he knew exactly how the fight would end before it even began .
He was even using genjutsu and essentially showing us what he was going for before the fight . So no he is far more powerful than kakashi and if he didn’t need to have his heart Literally removed from his body than he would have crushed kakashi in that battle .
No bro he played itachi like a fiddle and nagato and all these people you think are intelligent we’re literally made pawns by obito. He flawlessly impersonated madara for years and Fooled itachi and everyone else . He gained knowledge of the seal madara secretly placed in his heart and he created a plan to have it remove before sealing the ten tails into himself and in the proccess out witting madara himself and madara even said “ wow what a failure “ he had backup plans in case he wanted to proceed with the juubi resurrection before capturing the nine tails . He is superior to itachi in Almost every way. His genjutsu feats are equal to or greater than itachi as well being compared to koto and itachi himself so there’s no basis for itachi being better itachi manipulating time is impressive but it won’t work on another powerful uchiha . When obito’s genjutsu was compared to itachi himself and even koto. He controlled 6 tailed beasts at once .Placed a bjuu in a genjutsu while it was sealed in its Jin. He knew that the nine tails seal would weaken during child birth. Minato said “ back than , that man saw through every move I made “  your the one underestimating obito and overestimating itachi .I get it though itachi is a badass . Konan’s Powers counter obito to a certain extant . Itachi could never run the 5 limit timer out because of the nature of his abilities and because Obito is very familiar with most abilities in general . Itachi’s most powerful genjutsu was broken by a 3 tomoe . If you really think putting the nine tails in a genjutsu is so easy than why have only 3 uchiha in history managed to do it ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darkscion (Dec 24, 2018)

Obito also totally did some even more crazy shit later honestly . What with holding his own against juubidara when everyone else was getting their asses kicked he revived naruto with a little help from his other eye . Than he pulled a wtf and temporarily teleported himself out of purgatory and to make it even more ridiculous somehow allowed kakashi to wield a six paths dms susanoo. Survived rinne tensei , survived getting his heart stabbed out . I could go on and on about how obscene some of his feats honestly are . Itachi is amazing . Obito is ridiculous .


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## Darkscion (Dec 24, 2018)

kokodeshide said:


> Out of every possible match up that is actually a worth while fight, This is the one where people opinions confuse me the most. Why is everyone so high on obito? How is he superior in everyway? We have basically seen the dude get his ass kicked more times than anyone in the series. We have seen that if you take away Kamui, he literally becomes a weaker Kakashi. Itachi at 30 percent power and no Mangekyo was even with Kakashi. Obito literally is ONLY a Kamui fighter.
> 
> Itachi has superior Taijutsu, no problems with kakashi, KCM naruto or Acrobat Bee.
> Itachi has superior Ninjutsu, His susanoo wields totsuka and the yata mirror. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are 1 hit kills to nearly anyone.
> ...



Obito never reacted to a blindside attack ? He constantly does actually. 2 times from Gai right off the top of my head one when he was fighting the 4 of them and he was about to suck in naruto and Gai saved naruto via leaping above the two of them and attacking obito’s head . Obito didn’t appear to be able to see him either and he had a mask which would further obscure his vision. He still reacted though . Another time when he was Yet Again about to absorb naruto and Gai yet again using leaf whirlwind blindside attacked obito and yet again he still reacted .


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## Darkscion (Dec 25, 2018)

I gotta say this too . You don’t think obito embarrassed fuu and Torune enough ? He beat them with no trouble at all and he ripped off his own arm and didn’t even retreat like itachi would if he lost an arm . He just chilled and ported sasuke out to fight Danzo , than grabbed some popcorn. He kept fu and torune in genjutsu coma for a long amount of time in kamui. Than he snapped one of their necks and used their bodies for an edo tensei demonstration. On a side note Mind transfer might fuck Hidan over in a 2 vs 1 tbh .


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## Xel (Dec 25, 2018)

Darkscion said:


> I gotta say this too . You don’t think obito embarrassed fuu and Torune enough ? He beat them with no trouble at all and he ripped off his own arm and didn’t even retreat like itachi would if he lost an arm . He just chilled and ported sasuke out to fight Danzo , than grabbed some popcorn. He kept fu and torune in genjutsu coma for a long amount of time in kamui. Than he snapped one of their necks and used their bodies for an edo tensei demonstration. On a side note Mind transfer might fuck Hidan over in a 2 vs 1 tbh .



Don't forget that he also kicked his arm at Fuu. It was hilarious


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## Darkscion (Dec 25, 2018)

Lol I forgot about that what a crazy bastard.

Kokodeshide

I just keep reading more and more of what your saying And I can’t help but reply but did you seriously say Obito was hiding in the shadows because Obito was weak as fuck and that he wasn’t an underground leader ... he was quite literally just that . It was very clear as day that he was giving pain the orders and had been for some time. He practically took on the whole world alone so saying he’s weak af is just a basic opinion .


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## Darkscion (Dec 25, 2018)

Itachi called obito “an invincible immortal “ I was just scrolling through sasuke vs itachi again ....That’s pretty high regard for a guy itachi could totally defeat lol


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 18, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Thoughts?


Want a VM?


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 18, 2019)

I try to be a good person, but it seems like I'm stuck in the past
  -yours truly, KisaitaParadise


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## Matty (Nov 18, 2019)

No I always felt like it was supposed to be pretty clear he Obito was a step up. Of course he can def beat him, but I’d say Obito is the next step and would most likely win

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Nov 19, 2019)

Give him all the knowledge and prep he can get, Itachi is not beating Obito.


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## JayK (Nov 19, 2019)

no matter the situation, Obito claps Itachi's cheeks no diff

He then proceeds to do the same to the Sannin & Masters.


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## Quipchaque (Nov 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Give him all the knowledge and prep he can get, Itachi is not beating Obito.



Obito himself disagrees. And tge way his powers have been portrayed against non-tangable abilities like mind transfer I can see why. Genjutsu bypasses Kamui. Not to say that that gives Itachi the win by default but he has a shot for sure.


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2019)

I think he could due to type match up, with Izanami. But I could also easily see Obito winning too


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## Sufex (Nov 19, 2019)

Obito himself was shit scared of itachi for a reason. Even if it sounds stupid kishi wrote it that way. While under normal circumstances obito shit diffs itachi. If he had a special plan and knowledge i think he could pull out a win with inizami or some shit


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## MShadows (Nov 19, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Obito himself disagrees. And tge way his powers have been portrayed against non-tangable abilities like mind transfer I can see why. Genjutsu bypasses Kamui. Not to say that that gives Itachi the win by default but he has a shot for sure.


Do you believe Itachi can put Obito out of all people under Genjutsu?

Obito, who could put Kurama (a feat which made people believe that he couldn't be anyone other than Madara himself) and Fourth Mizukage Yagura, a perfect Jinchuriki, under his complete control with just a 3T Sharingan.


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## Zembie (Nov 19, 2019)

Under no circumstances can this happen. You'll have to give Itachi some asspull to win/


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## JayK (Nov 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> You'll have to give Itachi some asspull to win


You could give Itachi a gun and he still loses.


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## Zembie (Nov 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> You could give Itachi a gun and he still loses.


Hopefully he doesn't lose against Base Jiraiya.


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## Sufex (Nov 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Under no circumstances can this happen. You'll have to give Itachi some asspull to win/


Like kishi would


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## Sufex (Nov 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Hopefully he doesn't lose against Base Jiraiya.


Base jman >>> entire akatsuki + itachi

Its stated and therefore manga fact


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## Kisame (Nov 19, 2019)

With prep and knowledge, maybe. Although we know Itachi in his lifetime could not defeat Obito.


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## Quipchaque (Nov 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Do you believe Itachi can put Obito out of all people under Genjutsu?
> 
> Obito, who could put Kurama (a feat which made people believe that he couldn't be anyone other than Madara himself) and Fourth Mizukage Yagura, a perfect Jinchuriki, under his complete control with just a 3T Sharingan.



Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows really? Matter of fact is that Obito stated Itachi could kill him and matter of fact is also that Kakashi stalemated with Obito in a genjutsu battle. Obito's power level is a real mess.


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## MShadows (Nov 19, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows really? Matter of fact is that Obito stated Itachi could kill him and matter of fact is also that Kakashi stalemated with Obito in a genjutsu battle. Obito's power level is a real mess.


Except Obito orchestrated that entire fight so that Kakashi would destroy the cursed seal Madara placed on his heart. 

He could've owned Kakashi at any moment if he wanted to


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## Quipchaque (Nov 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Except Obito orchestrated that entire fight so that Kakashi would destroy the cursed seal Madara placed on his heart.
> 
> He could've owned Kakashi at any moment if he wanted to



That is baseless. All we know is that he took the heart stab on purpose.


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## MShadows (Nov 19, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is baseless. All we know is that he took the heart stab on purpose.


Then you need to reread the manga


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## Quipchaque (Nov 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Then you need to reread the manga



Why? You don't need to orchestrate a whole fight to get stabbed through the heart. Show me a panel that supports your claim.


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