# Ancalagon the Black vs Sauron



## Red Angel (Jan 23, 2014)

Match between two of the greatest servants of Morgoth

Also kinda curious about the feasibility of scaling Sauron to Ancalagon's level of DC, seeing as Sauron is Melkor's most powerful servant and whatnot

So yeah


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 24, 2014)

Ancalagon by far stomps Sauron even in his prime. Sauron's strong points were manipulation, forgery/creation(being a Maia of Aule), shapeshifting(could fool almost anyone), mental influence(the Ring can make anyone submit outside Bombadil over time), necromancy(this one is obvious and he's powerful enough to do so to the likes of Witch King) and overall had strong magic(nothing short of a high Elven Lord would do for him). IIRC did'nt Tolkien state he was at his prime more powerful than end of First age Melkor with The Ring?We know prior to that he was one of Melkor's highest ranking minions which would put him above various corrupted Maia. 

Sauron is stronger than Gandalf as Olorin who admits to Manwe he was scared of Sauron.  Sauron would be around or above Sauruman/Curumo. I'd wager the Ring puts him beyond Curumo. He survived Eru sinking Numenor but lost the ability to regain fair form and it took a while to regain his strength. He took down Elendil and Gil Galad, broke Narsil before Isildur used it to cut off his ring finger.

Ancalagon was pure raw power to a point it took an army of god Eagles, a flying ship and  Earendil after a day's battle through some unknown means. Plus when he fell he crushed the biggest mountains in Middle Earth. He was the Godzilla of that verse but to be fair, even his flames could not destroy The One Ring which has most of Sauron's power.

Sauron was overpowered by Numenor's armies which are quite powerful granted but that seems far less than what was needed to take down Ancalagon. If Sauron can somehow influence Ancalagon then maybe he could win but most likely he just gets fried and Ancalagon keeps The Ring as a trophy due to his dragon's greed.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jan 24, 2014)

Curumo is weaker than Ol?rin
The only reason Gandalf wasn't the leader of Istari in first place is because he's humble.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 24, 2014)

I thought originally Saruman>Gandalf?


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## Louis Cyphre (Jan 24, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I thought originally Saruman>Gandalf?


Only Gandalf The Grey
As the leader of Istari, Saruman has more access to his original powers, similar to Gandalf when he was resurrected as Gandalf The White.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 24, 2014)

> Also kinda curious about the feasibility of scaling Sauron to Ancalagon's level of DC


what DC feats does Ancalagon have besides being big, heavy and strong ?  (which wouldn't apply to Sauron)


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## AngryHeretic (Jan 24, 2014)

Big, heavy, and strong is sufficient when he's big, heavy, and strong enough to crush Mt. Doom or Barad-Dur with one swipe of his tail. Or annihilate the Last Alliance on his lonesome.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 24, 2014)

that's good, but it does nothing for Sauron then


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## Red Angel (Jan 24, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> what DC feats does Ancalagon have besides being big, heavy and strong ?  (which wouldn't apply to Sauron)



Crushing 3 bigger than Everest mountains just by falling on them, you could easily scale this to his breath and his strength (and why wouldn't you?)


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 25, 2014)

What does his breath have to do with his size and overall mass?


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## Red Angel (Jan 25, 2014)

His fire breath should be as powerful as him just falling, the idea of it being several orders of magnitude less is rather silly


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 25, 2014)

why ? 


large mass and large velocity gives massive energies


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 25, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> His fire breath should be as powerful as him just falling, the idea of it being several orders of magnitude less is rather silly



This is'nt based on anything at all outside belief. We have no idea on the mechanics of his fire and how much energy he puts into it. His fire is'nt going to have the same impact as him following(which includes factors like some gravity as well) but you could argue it's hot enough to burn some mountains considering his sheer size means that huge head of his shooting fire would most likely do that.

It's not scalable to Sauron eitherway, Ancalagon is beyond Sauron in terms of being a powerhouse when it takes an army of Great Eagles after a day's fighting and whatever circumstances to beat him, Sauron's strengths lie elsewhere.

Sauron and Gothmog are both hyped as being Morgoth's greatest servants but whether this can in terms of power level or a combination of factors is harder to say. Greatest does not necessarily mean most powerful. Could just be their overall role to him so that may not be enough to put Sauron or Gothmog over Ancalagon in a fight.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Sauron is stronger than Gandalf as Olorin who admits to Manwe he was scared of Sauron.  Sauron would be around or above Sauruman/Curumo. I'd wager the Ring puts him beyond Curumo.



_ "....Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; *but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."*
_


But the most fascinating and telling quote about Sauron compared to Olorin and Curumo is this one from Tolkien himself:

_"Sauron was as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. Yet he had begun well, at least on the level of desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom. But he went further than any human tyrant in pride and lust for domination, *being in origin an immortal spirit, of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman but of a far higher order."*_

This is comparing their position and power as Maia and not taking into account any potential weaknesses that came with embodiment. Sauron is in a whole different class than either of them.

Nevertheless, Saruman is not weak. Looking again to Unfinished Tales...


> At length they returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-d?r conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any other of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.
> 
> The Ringwraiths therefore were ordered to go straight to Isengard. They rode then through Rohan in haste, and the terFror of their passing was so great that many folk fled from the land, and went wildly away north and west, believing that war out of the East was coming on the heels of the black horses.
> 
> ...



The Witch-king, Sauron's slave, was ordered by his master to go to Saruman. But Saruman's power was so great that he could tell him to take a hike, in essence almost surplanting Sauron's will with his own. It was an impressive deed to my eyes, especially factoring in the apparent gulf in their powers.

But yes...I want to do a Tolkien Tier list again. Sauron needs to be in a tier higher than Gandalf or Saruman, which was not the case in previous topics.


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## NemeBro (Jan 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Ancalagon was pure raw power to a point it took an army of god Eagles, a flying ship and  Earendil after a day's battle through some unknown means. Plus when he fell he crushed the biggest mountains in Middle Earth. He was the Godzilla of that verse but to be fair, even his flames could not destroy The One Ring which has most of Sauron's power.



Ancalagon wasn't actually the only dragon in that battle. He was just the strongest. Yet Earendil killed him. So while yes, Earendil "had help", so did Ancalagon.

Sauron by comparison knocked out Luthien without having to actually touch her, and was able to resist to an extent Luthien's own enchantment. This being the same Luthien that knocked out Morgoth and his entire army of douchebags.

When the Valar sent lightning to destroy the country of Numenor, Sauron on his lonesome protected the island, tanking the blasts and appearing so powerful he appeared to be a god to the Numenoreans. I should mention Sauron accomplished this without the One Ring on his person, yet he had already created it at the time. 

He should be more powerful than Osse, who has created two very large islands by moving them to their place of rest and rooting them to the sea floor; namely Tol Eressea and Numenor.

Sauron is, stated many times, the greatest of all Melkor's servants (Save Ungoliant in her prime, who of course was never a servant at all). So he probably wins.


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## Red Angel (Jan 30, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> This is'nt based on anything at all outside belief. We have no idea on the mechanics of his fire and how much energy he puts into it. His fire is'nt going to have the same impact as him following(which includes factors like some gravity as well) but you could argue it's hot enough to burn some mountains considering his sheer size means that huge head of his shooting fire would most likely do that.
> 
> It's not scalable to Sauron eitherway, Ancalagon is beyond Sauron in terms of being a powerhouse when it takes an army of Great Eagles after a day's fighting and whatever circumstances to beat him, *Sauron's strengths lie elsewhere.*
> 
> Sauron and Gothmog are both hyped as being Morgoth's greatest servants but whether this can in terms of power level or a combination of factors is harder to say. Greatest does not necessarily mean most powerful. Could just be their overall role to him so that may not be enough to put Sauron or Gothmog over Ancalagon in a fight.



Sauron's expertise is in deception and manipulation true, but he did solo Minas Tirith and beat one of the most powerful Elves in a magic fight and he was above the White Council in his Third Age self (fairly certain he left Dol Guldur as he didn't need it anymoar)

Should also mention that his fight with Huan was causing mountainsides to crumble and rivers to dam up

Basically he prefers to be a puppeteer, although if need be, he can deliver a beatdown


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 30, 2014)

NemeBro said:


> Ancalagon wasn't actually the only dragon in that battle. He was just the strongest. Yet Earendil killed him. So while yes, Earendil "had help", so did Ancalagon.
> 
> Sauron by comparison knocked out Luthien without having to actually touch her, and was able to resist to an extent Luthien's own enchantment. This being the same Luthien that knocked out Morgoth and his entire army of douchebags.
> 
> ...



I sincerely doubt the Valar were trying to destroy Numenor. The Numenoreans' actions undoubtedly pissed them off, and the lightning you mentioned was perhap a symptom of this, but I'd hardly call it a direct action on their part to destroy the island. if they could do something like that, they wouldn't have gone to Eru when  Ar-Pharazon invaded.

As for Sauron being Melkor's greatest servant, this could mean a lot of things. For one, Sauron is arguably smarter than any other villain in the series and this includes his master. He would thus be far more useful than Ancalagon or Gothmog. Yet Gothmog and Sauron held more or less equal rank in the First Age. I've seen Sauron vs. Gothmog argued enough on Tolkien boards that I'm fairly certain there is absolutely no quote that says something definitive like "Sauron was the strongest of Melkor's servants" or anything like that. Just that he was  the most useful and cunning.


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## NemeBro (Jan 30, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> I sincerely doubt the Valar were trying to destroy Numenor.



Is that why they beseeched Eru Illuvitar to do so?



> The Numenoreans' actions undoubtedly pissed them off, and the lightning you mentioned was perhap a symptom of this, but I'd hardly call it a direct action on their part to destroy the island. if they could do something like that, they wouldn't have gone to Eru when  Ar-Pharazon invaded.



I'd like to hope that destroying a small country is not seriously believed to be above the power of the Valar, considering a mere Maia put it there. 



> As for Sauron being Melkor's greatest servant, this could mean a lot of things. For one, Sauron is arguably smarter than any other villain in the series and this includes his master. He would thus be far more useful than Ancalagon or Gothmog. Yet Gothmog and Sauron held more or less equal rank in the First Age. I've seen Sauron vs. Gothmog argued enough on Tolkien boards that I'm fairly certain there is absolutely no quote that says something definitive like "Sauron was the strongest of Melkor's servants" or anything like that. Just that he was  the most useful and cunning.



I'm really not sure where that "Gothmog held equal rank with Sauron" statement comes from. I literally just read the Silmarillion and can't recall it, mind enlightening me?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 30, 2014)

> Should also mention that his fight with Huan was causing mountainsides to crumble and rivers to dam up



The Werewolf Sauron vs Huan fight?Have a quote?Been a long while since I read the fluff.


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## NemeBro (Jan 30, 2014)

It's actually been calced, apparently.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 30, 2014)

NemeBro said:


> Is that why they beseeched Eru Illuvitar to do so?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then why didn't Manwe just wave his hand and utterly annihilate the entire fleet of the last Numenorean King? He had the power. So logic dictates he simply did not have the authority. I apply the same logic to what I was saying earlier - they were not hurling lightning at the island in some hope of destroying it because their actions later on clearly show they did not believe they had the right to destroy it in the first place.

As for Gothmog, he was High-captain of Angband, which in effect makes him the main commander of Morgoth's army. He was also Lord of Balrogs, making him mighty even among other Maiar. I see no reason to think Sauron was significantly stronger than him without any quotes stating as much. Like I already said, the quotes about Sauron could have any number of meanings and not just in terms of power. he was Morgoth's greatest servant because of his genius for example.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 30, 2014)

To be fair I do think Sauron with The Ring is above Gothmog but then that's just my belief.


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## NemeBro (Jan 30, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Then why didn't Manwe just wave his hand and utterly annihilate the entire fleet of the last Numenorean King? He had the power. So logic dictates he simply did not have the authority. I apply the same logic to what I was saying earlier - they were not hurling lightning at the island in some hope of destroying it because their actions later on clearly show they did not believe they had the right to destroy it in the first place.


 All right, I'll admit that they probably didn't want to literally vaporize Numenor and the surrounding area like what happened, but kill all its people and destroy the civilization? That was what was actually happening before Sauron stopped it. 



> As for Gothmog, he was High-captain of Angband, which in effect makes him the main commander of Morgoth's army. He was also Lord of Balrogs, making him mighty even among other Maiar. I see no reason to think Sauron was significantly stronger than him without any quotes stating as much. Like I already said, the quotes about Sauron could have any number of meanings and not just in terms of power. he was Morgoth's greatest servant because of his genius for example.



Sauron also happens to have better showings though.

Gothmog has never beaten anyone without either having aid from other Balrogs, or wiithout dying himself in the process. 

It was not Gothmog who was sent to capture Minas Tirith, and indeed when Morgoth left Angband occasionally, Sauron was put in charge.


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## AngryHeretic (Jan 30, 2014)

Sauron was no more powerful with the ring than without. I don't understand where that misconception comes from. He was at his strongest in the First Age when he could still take any form he desired. That's when he fought Huan, which was an incredible feat. He had the ring on when he fought the Last Alliance and that didn't help him very much against Isildur simply cutting it off, which _never_ would have been possible in his prime. Sauron put his own power into the ring, it didn't make him more powerful. If anything it just made him more vulnerable, since removing it from him would weaken him considerably and destroying it would destroy him too for all practical reasons.

Its purpose was for subterfuge, which was always Sauron's specialty, not combat (granted he could still fight quite well). He would give the lesser rings to other beings in ME, and through the One Ring's connection to them, corrupt their wielders to his will. It wasn't made for battle.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 30, 2014)

It is not a misconception because while he poured most of his power into it, he was smart enough not to suffer from the mistakes Morgoth and later Sauruman made, infact he actually became stronger.

Now I remember reading a letter from Tolkien saying Sauron is at full power even without wearing The Ring as long as it's not destroyed or someone else wears it due to his connection to it. Offcourse I think the LOTR novels may contradict this as not letting Sauron get the ring was a plot point.

Sauron took on Gil Galad and Elendil, both were killed off and Narsil(made by the same people who could create Angrist that could cut Melkor's Silmaril) was shattered before Sauron's defeat. Gil Galad was a top tier Elf and Elendil from Aragorn's family without the watered down blood. Isildur cutting it off with an uber sword is'nt to be held against him when Angrist could cut a single Silmaril and Narsil a sort of cousin to it. Plus Gil Galad had Aeglos another reputed weapon which could be first age craftsmanship or not.


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## Red Angel (Feb 1, 2014)

Should also be noted Elendil is the father of a dude who cursed an entire kingdom to be ghosts indefinitely, for a sense of scale

As for the Tolkien letter thing, meh, sounds like author's intent than anything


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