# Itachi vs Jiraiya



## Cognitios (Jun 18, 2014)

Considering Itachi is able to one-shot the other two sannin.
Distance: 50 meters
Restrictions: None
Location:  Kamuiland
Mindset: To the death

Scenario 1
Healthy Itachi vs Unrestricted J-Man (still needs to summon ma and pa)

Scenario 2
Edo Itachi vs Sage Mode Jiraiya


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## trance (Jun 18, 2014)

> Scenario 2
> Edo Itachi vs Sage Mode Itachi



I didn't know Itachi had Sage Mode. :ignoramus


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## Cognitios (Jun 18, 2014)

> I didn't know Itachi had Sage Mode



Clearly you haven't read my essays


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 18, 2014)

Itachi closes the distance and chokeslams Jiraiya with Susano'o.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 18, 2014)

The thing is Jiraiya in either scenario lacks the means to immediately break through susanoo. On the other hand he has techniques like Yomi Numa which can halt Itachi's movements and slowly drag him down to his death, Goemon which Itachi can't really avoid in the second scenario. I'd favor Itachi more times than not in both cases (I think he deals with sick Itachi in general though) but it's not as much of a stomp as it sounds like at that range but Jiraiya just can't deal with Susanoo and Amaterasu at once even if he has the means of hurting Itachi. I wonder if summoning a giant toad on top of Susanoo would break it? 

Jiraiya's not getting blitzed though and with his barrier up he can more than keep up reaction wise

additionally with his backup in SM in the form of Ma and Pa, Itachi has no counter to Gamarinsho and Frog Call can paralyze Itachi long enough for it to be used

Like I summarized above though I'd give it to healthy Itachi 7-8/10 times or so in scenario 2 due to having more ways of beating Jiraiya and not getting hurt while he pretty much stomps in the first one

Canonically Itachi runs away though


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## Hero (Jun 18, 2014)

At this point in the story, Jiraiya loses


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## trance (Jun 18, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Clearly you haven't read my essays



Doesn't explain why Itachi fights himself in a thread titled "Itachi vs. Jiraiya".


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Doesn't explain why Itachi fights himself in a thread titled "Itachi vs. Jiraiya".



In Itachi vs Itachi I see the match going in NBD's favor


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## Dr. White (Jun 19, 2014)

Jiraiaya gets mind raped.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2014)

Jiraiya needs cover. You put them in a giant, endless, empty room.

Susano'o > J-man in a brawl, and that's essentially what this is...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2014)

Itachi wins both scenarios. 

Scenario 1 is basically Itachi vs Oro with Jiraiya in Oro's place.

Scenario 2 is Itachi vs Nagato with Jiraiya on the recieving end of Totsuka.

It is clear that Itachi is significantly superior to Jiraiya regardless of what Mode Jiraiya is in.


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## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2014)

Itachi wins both rounds, 
this has been done countless countless times, 
--Edo itachi beats SM jiraiya rather easily,


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## Ersa (Jun 19, 2014)

Under these conditions healthy Itachi would defeat Jiraiya more times then not, Jiraiya should only win if he starts in SM and in a favourable location. Edo Itachi steamrolls Jiraiya regardless of knowledge, location or SM. The gap is fairly huge here.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 19, 2014)

Not sure what's the point that of this thread?

you didn't the let jiraiya start in sm and there in a giant empty room 



then in scenerio 2 you made it edo itachi 


jman loses both scenerios for it to be a good match make it healthy itachi and give jman some Intel and let him start in sm


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## Itachі (Jun 19, 2014)

In Kamui land, Jiraiya gets stomped. I assume that the knowledge is manga, Itachi knows that Jiraiya is a Sannin and he proceeds to Tsukuyomi Jiraiya off the bat with some Bunshin trickery.

Edo Itachi murders Jiraiya.

The location doesn't help Jiraiya either.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 19, 2014)

Itachi puts Jiraiya in Genjutsu and cuts his hands off.

Orochimaru repeat.


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## Turrin (Jun 19, 2014)

Jiraiya wins both senario's. Itachi's main avenue for victory against Jiraiya is defeating him before he enters Sennin-Modo. Here you made the starting distance 50m, so there is absolutely no doubt Jiriaya achieves Sennin Modo and I have little doubt he'd opt to ether go for Sennin Modo at the start or go on defense at the start (which will later allow him to enter Sennin Modo) given his knowledge of Itachi. Sennin Modo Jiriaya has the perfect techniques to take down Itachi. Frog-Call disables Itachi's defenses down to Stage 1 Susano'o, which Sennin Modo Jiriaya can blow through with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan; after all Kabuto's Senpo Suiton blew through Sasuke's Stage 1 Susano'o. Than the match ends right there. Alternatively holding out for Frog-Song by utilizing clones, Senpo Yomi Numa, Toad Guard Barrier Seal, Smoke-screens, etc... to keep away from Itachi would also result in his victory. 

On the flip-side of this Itachi doesn't have much that can challenge Sennin Modo Jiriaya. Even if Jiraiya himself does not have Sennin Modo Sensing (which I heavily disagree with), Ma/Pa do, and will sense when Itachi is going to use Genjutsu or Amaterasu, allowing Jiriaya the time to block-LOS or avoid eye-contact. Susano'o is the only real threat here, but Jiraiya has plenty of means of avoiding it between slowing it down with Yomi Numa. Senpo Frog Call, Toad Gourd Barrier Seal, KB. Falling back on Toads, LOS blockage, and so on. Itachi is vastly more likely to fall to Frog-Call Combo or Frog-Song, than Sennin Modo Jiriaya is to Susano'o. 

When it comes to scenario 2 nothing much changes. Itachi can use his Jutsu more freely, but Sennin Modo Jiriaya still has a myriad of ways around them. And Sealing Itachi in Toad Gourd will deal with Edo-Regen.

The only way Jiriaya looses ether match is if he doesn't use his skills properly at all, which could happen, but it's not happening most of the time


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## Bonly (Jun 19, 2014)

I'd go with Itachi more times then not, I don't see Jiraiya making it to SM in time which he needs to beat Itachi imo.


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## Ether (Jun 19, 2014)

Scenario 1: Itachi wins albeit with difficulty. 

At 50 meters, Itachi would need to shunshin over a little and activate his MS. 

From there, Amaterasu spam would definitely hinder Jiraiya's chances of reaching Sage Mode.

Yasaka Magatama also helps him distract Jiraiya.

Exploding Clones, Fireballs, and the ever constant threat of genjutsu puts J-man in a bad position trying to reach Sage Mode. 

Susano'o protects him from any large AoE attacks. 

Itachi on the lower end of high diff.   

Scenario 2:

 Itachi mid diff. 

This incarnation of Itachi can use his MS techniques far more freely. 

Same thing like last time but it's easier on Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2014)

>2014
> People still think SM Jiraiya is Itachi's equal 


At best I'd argue that SM'd give Jiraiya the means to be able to put some kind of a fight. Its like the last bit of resistance before someone gets raped. 
Pro tip : Rape is inevitable here, with some resistance or not. Try to enjoy it


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## krolk88 (Jun 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> >2014
> > People still think SM Jiraiya is Itachi's equal
> 
> 
> ...



...Because Jiraya is Itachi's equal?

Jiraya(base) = Sick Itachi
Jiraya(SM) = Healthy Itachi

imo.

Dont bring up oro vs itachi fight,it's like saying itachi can solo current naruto due to tsukyomi -_-.

Like seriously:

Tsukyomi is a non-factor(lets assume jiraya gets out by partner method,oro had no summons around so he got fodderized)
Amaterasu can be sealed by jiraya's technique,he can also probably outrun/dodge it in SM.
Susanoo puts much strain on itachi's body,and while its true he'd get an upper hand while using it,he wouldnt be able to finish jiraya with totsuka due to sensing(even if you think SM doesnt give jiraya sensing,he still has his sensing barrier).Itachi would have a 50/50 shot at winning as it depends entirely on whether or not he can get jiraya while his susanoo is up.After it disappears jiraya can finish exhausted itachi quite easily.

On thread:

Scenario 1:

Itachi wins more often than not due to Jiraya not starting in SM,i'd give it to him 7/10 times,on the lower end of high-extreme difficulty.

Scenario 2:

Edo itachi is Jiraya's superior,Jiraya cant harm unexhausting itachi who has V4 Susanoo with Yata,so itachi wins 10/10 times here,lower end of mid difficulty


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2014)

Too bad Tsukuyomi can't be broken by a partner method.


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## krolk88 (Jun 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Too bad Tsukuyomi can't be broken by a partner method.



It lasts 1 second,so with quick enough reactions,the toads would break jiraya free before he dies.I dont count exhaustion from 24 hours in tsukyomi world but well..its not like SM jiraya is going to be that exhausted.

+ there was never a case when tsukyomi actually hit a perf jin or someone with summons and there will probably never be.Yeah,kakashi said that it cant be broken by partner method during shoten itachi fight but it'd be NLF to believe him blindly without seeing it on-panel,and if all canon statements from all characters'd be true,then sarutobi > hashirama,itachi is invicible,current sakura = BM Naruto/EMS Sasuke,all those are obviously false


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> It lasts 1 second,so with quick enough reactions,the toads would break jiraya free before he dies.



No....

Kakashi stated Chiyo's method of breaking someone out is ineffective because it takes to long for someone to find out, make the actions to dispel, and hen cancel the jutsu. 

Likewise even Itachi's base genjutsu caught Bee for multiple panels before the Bjuu could break him out, and they share the same brain space....

And finally there is KCM Naruto (a perfect Jin) telling Killer Bee (another Perfect Jin) that being hit by amaterasu or Tsukuyomi is an OHKO.

GG.


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## krolk88 (Jun 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No....
> 
> Kakashi stated Chiyo's method of breaking someone out is ineffective because it takes to long for someone to find out, make the actions to dispel, and hen cancel the jutsu.
> 
> ...



Edited previous post,look up.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> > + there was never a case when tsukyomi actually hit a perf jin or someone with summons and there will probably never be.Yeah,kakashi said that it cant be broken by partner method during shoten itachi fight but it'd be NLF to believe him blindly without seeing it on-panel,and if all canon statements from all characters'd be true,then sarutobi > hashirama,itachi is invicible,current sakura = BM Naruto/EMS Sasuke,all those are obviously false
> 
> 
> No...
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> ...Because Jiraya is Itachi's equal?
> 
> Jiraya(base) = Sick Itachi



Stopped reading here.

Sick Itachi > SM Jiraiya.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 20, 2014)

How many times has an Itachi vs Jiraiya thread been made? Don't people ever get tired of it? Jiraiya in a room with no where to run and no where to hide means summoning Fukasaku and Shima isn't happening, and his only hope is Sage Mode. He and his precious summons are but fodder to genjutsu, and if his contemporary with vastly superior genjutsu skills, knowledge about Itachi and Sharingan in general still got owned by basic genjutsu, then the same shall happen to Jiraiya. The only saving grace that base Jiraiya has is Yomi Numa, but against Itachi who can predict it's use and execute a Shackling Stake faster than Jiraiya can use his mud pond, there isn't any room for his victory. Basically, he takes Jiraiya with the same difficulty he took Oro.

Edo Itachi vs SM Jiraiya is a bit different. I assume when against an opponent he actually wants to kill, he'll do the smart thing and spam flames while camping in Susano'o. The fact that he can keep Susano'o up without limit is going to be a nightmare for Jiraiya as well. The one threat that is present is frog song, but that's not going to do much if Kabuto's superior white rage still let Itachi use Susano'o. I'm going with Itachi high diff with this one, simply because he's immortal.
Nah I'm just throwing Jiraiya a bone

*Spoiler*: __ 





Turrin said:


> Jiraiya wins both senario's. Itachi's main avenue for victory against Jiraiya is defeating him before he enters Sennin-Modo. Here you made the starting distance 50m, so there is absolutely no doubt Jiriaya achieves Sennin Modo and I have little doubt he'd opt to ether go for Sennin Modo at the start or go on defense at the start (which will later allow him to enter Sennin Modo) given his knowledge of Itachi. Sennin Modo Jiriaya has the perfect techniques to take down Itachi. Frog-Call disables Itachi's defenses down to Stage 1 Susano'o, which Sennin Modo Jiriaya can blow through with Senpo Chou Oddoma Rasengan; after all Kabuto's Senpo Suiton blew through Sasuke's Stage 1 Susano'o. Than the match ends right there. Alternatively holding out for Frog-Song by utilizing clones, Senpo Yomi Numa, Toad Guard Barrier Seal, Smoke-screens, etc... to keep away from Itachi would also result in his victory.
> 
> On the flip-side of this Itachi doesn't have much that can challenge Sennin Modo Jiriaya. Even if Jiraiya himself does not have Sennin Modo Sensing (which I heavily disagree with), Ma/Pa do, and will sense when Itachi is going to use Genjutsu or Amaterasu, allowing Jiriaya the time to block-LOS or avoid eye-contact. Susano'o is the only real threat here, but Jiraiya has plenty of means of avoiding it between slowing it down with Yomi Numa. Senpo Frog Call, Toad Gourd Barrier Seal, KB. Falling back on Toads, LOS blockage, and so on. Itachi is vastly more likely to fall to Frog-Call Combo or Frog-Song, than Sennin Modo Jiriaya is to Susano'o.
> 
> ...






Never stop fighting the good fight Turrin.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't expect ppl to downplay Base Jiraiya so much, Base Yomi Numa is too broken that can solo Akatsuki. :ignoramus

SM Jiraiya however dies in the most horrific way possible against *Edo Itachi*. Let Jiraiya have all his toads with full intel and favourable location and Edo Itachi will still stomp.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> >2014
> > People still think SM Jiraiya is Itachi's equal



Some people still think Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + Back up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> How many times has an Itachi vs Jiraiya thread been made? Don't people ever get tired of it? Jiraiya in a room with no where to run and no where to hide means summoning Fukasaku and Shima isn't happening, and his only hope is Sage Mode. He and his precious summons are but fodder to genjutsu, and if his contemporary with vastly superior genjutsu skills, knowledge about Itachi and Sharingan in general still got owned by basic genjutsu, then the same shall happen to Jiraiya. The only saving grace that base Jiraiya has is Yomi Numa, but against Itachi who can predict it's use and execute a Shackling Stake faster than Jiraiya can use his mud pond, there isn't any room for his victory. Basically, he takes Jiraiya with the same difficulty he took Oro.
> 
> Edo Itachi vs SM Jiraiya is a bit different. I assume when against an opponent he actually wants to kill, he'll do the smart thing and spam flames while camping in Susano'o. The fact that he can keep Susano'o up without limit is going to be a nightmare for Jiraiya as well. The one threat that is present is frog song, but that's not going to do much if Kabuto's superior white rage still let Itachi use Susano'o. I'm going with Itachi high diff with this one, simply because he's immortal.
> 
> ...




I think the whole Itachi vs Jiraiya thing was a decent debate back in 2008, when the only proper display from Itachi was labeled as "garbage" by the auhtor(zetsu). We knew Itachi was fatally ill which took a significant toll on him, and he was massively holding back, but that was all we got from him, feat-wise, so that was all we could use for debates.

Although even then, Jiraiya had no counter to Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu and Susano'O would still mow him down like grass had he tried to face it in direct combat. And the polls in BD most of the time favored Itachi 60-65% to 40-35%. 

But now ? I don't think there is a debate to be had when Itachi held his own and defeated shinobi massively stronger than Jiraiya, when he recieved the amount of hype and portrayal Jiraiya could never dream of.


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## Danzio (Jun 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sick Itachi > SM Jiraiya.





​

Revisionist history aside, it's amusing how Jiraiya will still strike fear into people's hearts to this day.


Dat Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

Jiraiya wins both scenarios, or at the very least is a tie at best case scenario for itachi.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Pretty sure that statement was retconned.


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## Danzio (Jun 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Pretty sure that statement was retconned.



How so?

Itachi, the genius, knew Jiraiya had SM. Not worth the trouble, considering his mission and horrible chakra levels. 

Same way he knew about not messing with Based Gai when he encountered him.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Pretty sure that statement was retconned.



pretty sure you're imagining thing and won't bring any proof for your claim. 

Prove me wrong.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

Statement isn't necessarily about J-Man, there is a possibility if not likelihood that it was about Kyuubi.
Even so it was sick Itachi saying he could draw with Sage Mode J-Man.
The statement states that
Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > SM-Jiraiya >= Sick Itachi > Jiraiya
Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi >= SM Jiraiya > Jiraiya = Sick Itachi at absolute best case for J-Man
Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi >= SM J-Man > Jiraiya at worse case scenario for J-Man
Edo Itachi > Heatlthy Itachi > Sick Itachi = 100% Kyuubi is the best case for Itachi.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Statement isn't necessarily about J-Man, there is a possibility if not likelihood that it was about Kyuubi.
> Even so it was sick Itachi saying he could draw with Sage Mode J-Man.
> The statement states that
> Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > SM-Jiraiya >= Sick Itachi > Jiraiya
> ...







who said itachi in part 1 was sick?
and who said itachi knows about Jman's SM to begin with?

I supposed itachi was talking about drawing with drugged and one armed Jiraiya, because this happened to him later?  


> Even so it was sick Itachi saying he could draw with Sage Mode J-Man.



it's clearly was BASE Jiraiya. Jman did not show SM except in part 2. 

he was talking about base Jiraiya, unless you can prove that he knows about Jman's SM. 


Edite:
you know what, just forget about it, I do not want to go through all that mess again.



itachi fodderstomps, whatever makes his fans happy. U_U


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## krolk88 (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Statement isn't necessarily about J-Man, there is a possibility if not likelihood that it was about Kyuubi.
> Even so it was sick Itachi saying he could draw with Sage Mode J-Man.
> The statement states that
> Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > SM-Jiraiya >= Sick Itachi > Jiraiya
> ...



Err..no?

This statemnt states that

Kisame + Sick Itachi =< Jiraya(base) at best case scenario for J-man
Kisame + Sick Itachi =< SM Jiraya if Itachi knew about SM

which is kinda weird and was retconned,but i still view jiraya as itachi's equal.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

> who said itachi in part 1 was sick?
> and who said itachi knows about Jman's SM to begin with?


Who said he wasn't? It makes sense that he was, he showed signs of the illness in the fight against kakashi, why Kisame warned Itachi not to strain himself. 
His epithet was the Toad Sage, Itachi was a fairly high ranking member of Konoha. 


> it's clearly was BASE Jiraiya. Jman did not show SM except in part 2.


Itachi didn't show Susanoo in part 1 either, does that mean he didn't have it?



> he was talking about base Jiraiya, unless you can prove that he knows about Jman's SM.


Itachi was a high ranking member of Akatsuki and Konoha, he was hunting someone under the protection of Jiraiya, Nagato would have told him about it if he didn't know already. Also J-Man has stated multiple times his epithet, the Toad Sennin, or Naruto calls him the pervy sage. it is almost illogical that he didn't know about about J-Man's Sage Mode.




> Edite:
> you know what, just forget about it, I do not want to go through all that mess again.


Don't post debatable topics in a debate section if you don't want to debate.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> pretty sure you're imagining thing and won't bring any proof for your claim.
> 
> Prove me wrong.



Way to resort to fallacies. 

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Just like how Hiruzen's hype of being the strongest Hokage was essentially retconned.

:ignoramus


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

Err..no?



> This statemnt states that
> 
> Kisame + Sick Itachi =< Jiraya(base) at best case scenario for J-man
> Kisame + Sick Itachi =< SM Jiraya if Itachi knew about SM


The backup thing makes no sense. Are you saying that with 100k shinobi they couldn't beat J-Man? 
Itachi statement is only thing that makes sense. 
Btw going by hype Jiraiya can't break Susanoo and Itachi is invinsible.
You can't beat Itachi in a hype game, Kishi loves him too much. You need to beat him with feats, which J-Man just can't do.


> which is kinda weird and was retconned,but i still view jiraya as itachi's equal.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

> =Cognitios;51005538]Who said he wasn't? It makes sense that he was, he showed signs of the illness in the fight against kakashi, why Kisame warned Itachi not to strain himself.
> His epithet was the Toad Sage, Itachi was a fairly high ranking member of Konoha.



- the fact that he was not shown to be sick except in part 2.
- No he did not show any signs of illness, what the heck are you talking about.
- No, Kisame said that because the MS gets weaker over time, and that does not make him sick
it's just natural as happened with Sasuke and Kakashi. 

- lol, no. Even his students themselves (Nagato and Naruto) did not know about it, let alone itachi. 


> Itachi didn't show Susanoo in part 1 either, does that mean he didn't have it?


Except itachi is talking about himself and he knows his abilities. On the other hand, he does not know
about Jiraiya's SM, as Jiraiya himself does not like to use it because of his look. So, I don't know
from where you came up with that. 





> Itachi was a high ranking member of Akatsuki and Konoha, he was hunting someone under the protection of Jiraiya, Nagato would have told him about it if he didn't know already. Also J-Man has stated multiple times his epithet, the Toad Sennin, or Naruto calls him the pervy sage. it is almost illogical that he didn't know about about J-Man's Sage Mode.


 
- Which proves nothing. Either you have a clear proofs that itachi knows about it when even his students did not know, or you are just using baseless assumption. 


- Nagato did not know about SM or its abilities except in his battle with Jiraiya, and itachi was in his last battle at the time, and why on earth would Nagato say that to him to begin with?

- Yeah, Naruto called him that, did he know he has SM? No



> Don't post debatable topics in a debate section if you don't want to debate.



The debates are supposed to be about the manga, I can't help it if people will ignore it
and say "oh my god! he is itachi! that statement MUST have been reteconned" 

and as you may know itachi has much bigger fan-base, and obviously they won't think
that their favourite is inferior. U_U



Stαrkiller said:


> Way to resort to fallacies.
> 
> The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
> 
> ...



On other words you couldn't disprove my proof with anything
which makes my statement in that post about you being unable to do so
true.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

> - the fact that he was not shown to be sick except in part 2.


stick onto the Hiraishin user.
Says his body should be rested, not his eyes or that he needs to replenish his chakra. He must rest his body because he is sick.


> - No he did not show any signs of illness, what the heck are you talking about.


BZ didn't even know he was sick, not that hard to imagine that he's pretty good at conceling his disease especially in early stages.


> - No, Kisame sayer that because the MS gets weaker over time, and that does not make him sick
> it's just natural as happened with Sasuke and Kakashi.


Maybe that's what he thought because Itachi lied to him. No other MS user has shown those symptoms, it's logical to assume that it is unique to Itachi's illness.


> - lol, no. Even his students themselves (Nagato and Naruto) did not know about it, let alone itachi.


stick onto the Hiraishin user.
Naruto knows he's a sage, he just doesn't know what sage mode is.
Why do you say nagato did not know about it? 
Itachi on the otherhand had Naruto say he was a sage right in front of him, unlike Naruto, Itachi is knowledgeable and most likely if not certainly knows what a sage is. If you don't think that's true then prove me wrong.


> Except itachi is talking about himself and he knows his abilities. On the other hand, he does not
> about Jiraiya's SM, as Jiraiya himself does not like to use it because of his looks. So, I don't know
> from where you came up with that.


He knows about jiraiya's senjutsu as stated earlier. However for all Itachi knows J-Man could have sage mode on the level of Hashirama or current naruto. He doesn't know the level of senjutsu J-Man has.


> - Which proves nothing. Either you have a clear proofs that itachi knows about it when even his students did not know, or you are just using baseless assumption.


I have clear "proofs" as I have posted. Your turn to give proofs he doesn't know.
Naruto knows, and there is no proof that Nagato doesn't know.


> - Nagato did not know about SM or its abilities except in his battle with Jiraiya, and itachi was in his last battle at the time, and why on earth would Nagato say that to him to begin with?


Prove that Nagato didn't know. J-Man calls himself the Toad sage constantly.


> - Yeah, Naruto called him that, did he know he has SM? No


Because he doesn't know what sage mode is....
I'll put it as simply as I can. If I say George Washington was the first president of the USA to a kid then yes the kid knows that. Does he know what president means? no, but he knows Washington was a president.


> The debates are supposed to be about the manga, I can't help it if people will ignore it
> and say "oh my god! he is itachi! that statement MUST have been reteconned"


Sometimes we have to say retcons happen otherwise Itachi is invinsible. Believe me I could end every Itachi argument with "because kaguya's will, Rikudo Sennin's brother, Kaguya's son, Black Zetsu said Itachi was invinsible" but I don't need to. Don't talk about arguing the manga when you are doing the same thing.


> and as you may know itachi has much bigger fan-base, and obviously they won't think
> that their favourite is inferior. U_U


Your guilty of the exact same thing, so don't call others out on it when you do it on every single thread with Minato in it.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> -On other words you couldn't disprove my proof with anything
> which makes my statement in that post about you being unable to do so
> true.



You're resorting to the whole "You can't prove me wrong, so I'm right" argument, which is a fallacy. 

Retcons are quite real, m8.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

> =Cognitios;51005759]Shikon
> Says his body should be rested, not his eyes or that he needs to replenish his chakra. He must rest his body because he is sick.


That's happen to Kakashi several times as well, and he barely was able to move. Is he sick as well? 



> BZ didn't even know he was sick, not that hard to imagine that he's pretty good at conceling his disease especially in early stages.


 
BZ records everything for his mommy.  
and not everything can be hidden. 


> Maybe that's what he thought because Itachi lied to him. No other MS user has shown those symptoms, it's logical to assume that it is unique to Itachi's illness.


I just stated that Kakashi had the same thing going on for him. 
Shikon
and he usually go to the hospital for a week.  


> Shikon
> Naruto knows he's a sage, he just doesn't know what sage mode is.
> Why do you say nagato did not know about it?
> Itachi on the otherhand had Naruto say he was a sage right in front of him, unlike Naruto, Itachi is knowledgeable and most likely if not certainly knows what a sage is. If you don't think that's true then prove me wrong.



- and SM is all what matters.
- Because obviously Pa and Ma did not know about Nagato and that Jiraiya had him as student
when Jiraiya needs them to use SM? 
so if he summoned them in front of him to use SM, then they would have known about Nagato and would have been shocked? 

- Yeah sure, itachi went with Jiraiya to the toads place, and an Angle went down to him informing him
about SM Jiraiya's abilities when the latter did not even use them.  


> He knows about jiraiya's senjutsu as stated earlier. However for all Itachi knows J-Man could have sage mode on the level of Hashirama or current naruto. He doesn't know the level of senjutsu J-Man has.



sorry, but that proof is simply pathetic as itachi statement was before Naruto stated that to begin with.
So are you saying itachi went to the future to hear what Naruto would say and then returned to that time after he heard the information from the future and stated what he stated based on that?  


> I have clear "proofs" as I have posted. Your turn to give proofs he doesn't know.
> Naruto knows, and there is no proof that Nagato doesn't know.



off, you have no proofs as all, and I already explained the misconception you have. 


> Prove that Nagato didn't know. J-Man calls himself the Toad sage constantly.


already proven. It's funny as well that Nagato stated he had no idea about the Genjutsu
and all those other things. U_U


> Because he doesn't know what sage mode is....
> I'll put it as simply as I can. If I say George Washington was the first president of the USA to a kid then yes the kid knows that. Does he know what president means? no, but he knows Washington was a president.



again, even IF we went with that, you are using an event that happened AFTER itachi's statement
do not try to play with the time line of things, and come to me to state that he knows.  

not even sure if you're serious here. 


> Sometimes we have to say retcons happen otherwise Itachi is invinsible. Believe me I could end every Itachi argument with "because kaguya's will, Rikudo Sennin's brother, Kaguya's son, Black Zetsu said Itachi was invinsible" but I don't need to. Don't talk about arguing the manga when you are doing the same thing.



how did the retcon happened when kishi kept them the same until their death? 
why was Naruto (who inherited Jiraiya's strongest form) superior to Sasuke (who inherited itachi's strongest attacks)?

why did kishi gave them the same score in the DB? 
and made them die at the same time, to effect both Naruto and sasuke?

the manga has made it clear that those with SM are superior to those with the MS

Hashirama > EMS Madara
Jiraiya > itachi
Minato > obito
Naruto > Sasuke
Kabuto > itachi/sasuke

it couldn't be more obvious than that, especially when itachi stated it directly by himself.  


> Your guilty of the exact same thing, so don't call others out on it when you do it on every single thread with Minato in it.


oh really?
Minato said that he is inferior to a character and I stated that he is not? 
please, enlighten me with this post of mine because sure I do not remember what it even was. 



Stαrkiller said:


> You're resorting to the whole "You can't prove me wrong, so I'm right" argument, which is a fallacy.
> 
> Retcons are quite real, m8.



I have a proof directly from itachi mouth. You said it's a retcon, then you prove your claim.
it's really that simple. 

and what I meant my "prove me wrong" 
is about the fact that you won't be able to bring any proof against the manga, because that is what itachi fans do for decades now, they claim the manga is wrong and they are right, and when I ask them to bring forth their proofs, they bring nothing, I suppose they are destined for that?


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I have a proof directly from itachi mouth. You said it's a retcon, then you prove your claim.
> it's really that simple.
> 
> and what I meant my "prove me wrong"
> is about the fact that you won't be able to bring any proof against the manga, because that is what itachi fans do for decades now, they claim the manga is wrong and they are right, and when I ask them to bring forth their proofs, they bring nothing, I suppose they are destined for that?



So what? You want Kishi to personally state that Itachi was wrong and that he can, in fact, defeat Jiraiya with his own strength, despite what Itachi's later feats indicate?


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> So what? You want Kishi to personally state that Itachi was wrong and that he can, in fact, defeat Jiraiya with his own strength, despite what Itachi's later feats indicate?



if he made itachi, the DB, the fan book, or any other character state such thing, then yes, that would
be enough, but there is none. U_U

later feats? lol 
edo itachi has the same exact feats. a useless izanami which has not effect on people like Jiraiya
and weak megetama (or however it spelled) which is only compared to explosion tags did not change anything. itachi fans act as if those jutsus made him in a completely different level.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

Since this is no longer an argument over feats, but by statements in the manga

You cannot beat someone who is invincible. It's the definition of invinicible.
Jiraiya cannot beat Itachi because he is invincible. Black Zetsu, son of Kaguya, Brother of the Sage of Six Paths, will of kaguya has declared that Itachi cannot lose because he is invincible. If there is any doubt may I emphasis that Itachi is "completely invincible"
Jiraiya can't beat an invincible opponent. Neither can anyone in the manga. There is no one in the manga who can beat an invincible opponent.
Itachi has won the battledome, you can all go home now.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> if he made itachi, the DB, the fan book, or any other character state such thing, then yes, that would
> be enough, but there is none. U_U



Yea, because Kishi has been totally consistent over the past 18 years making mistakes in fiction is completely unheard of, amirite? 



> later feats? lol
> edo itachi has the same exact feats. a useless izanami which has not effect on people like Jiraiya
> and weak megetama (or however it spelled) which is only compared to explosion tags did not change anything. itachi fans act as if those jutsus made him in a completely different level.



>Yata Mirror
>Totsuka Sword
>YnM
>Speed enough to briefly keep pace with Bee and KCM Naruto
>Katon enough to irritate Samehada

:ignoramus

Jiraiya could never take Itachi in a head-on fight, not without SM at least.

Edit: Besides, like Cognitios said, Itachi's Susanoo + Totsuka Sword + Yata Mirror makes him 'completely' invincible.


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## krolk88 (Jun 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Edit: Besides, like Cognitios said, Itachi's Susanoo + Totsuka Sword + Yata Mirror makes him 'completely' invincible.



Until he collapses from exhaustion...


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## Akitō (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Since this is no longer an argument over feats, but by statements in the manga
> 
> You cannot beat someone who is invincible. It's the definition of invinicible.



There's a big difference between general praise and a direct comparison between two characters. 

An exaggeration of a comparison won't actually change the comparison, and an exaggeration of a piece of praise will make the person being praised clearly better than they really are. The only thing exaggerating a comparison will do is polarize the odds more than they already are. They're both similar, but the comparison's final outcome isn't actually being changed. 

In other words, if A > B, an exaggerated comparison might make A >> B. In this case, you can argue that Itachi exaggerated the comparison between him and Jiraiya, but that exaggeration shouldn't change the result of the comparison. 

Zetsu's comment was clearly a hyperbole. And that interpretation works because it was a blanket statement meant to depict Itachi's general prowess. "He's really, really strong" is basically what Zetsu is saying, and he included a hyperbole in there to create more of an impact.  There isn't any clear hyperbole I think in Itachi's comparison to Jiraiya, but even if there was, it wouldn't change the nature of what Itachi was trying to say, just like Zetsu's hyperbole doesn't change the nature of what he was trying to say.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

Akito, Hussains argument was basically everything in the manga is literally true.
I figured if I couldn't get him to see the fallacy in that I myself would embrass that fallacy and use it for myself.


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## Akitō (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Akito, Hussains argument was basically everything in the manga is literally true.
> I figured if I couldn't get him to see the fallacy in that I myself would embrass that fallacy and use it for myself.



The comparison you made wasn't a valid one though because if they are both false, they're false for different reasons. In one, Kishimoto would just be flat out giving us a conclusion that is the complete opposite of reality (i.e. A > B in the statement, but B > A in reality), and in the other, Kishimoto would only be amplifying the nature of the conclusion. I liken it to the difference between switching from positive to negative (the case if the Itachi and Jiraiya statement were incorrect) to switching from positive to more positive (the case if the Zetsu statement were incorrect). One is a clear red herring whereas the other is just a common hyperbole.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2014)

When it comes to the Kisame and Itachi statement the way I would translate it is:

Even if the number of people were to hypothetically increase, I guess this would remain unchanged

From my understanding the としても in this case refers to a hypothetical situation which may or may not take place in the future.  The "more-men" scenario shouldn't be taken literally. 

To further explain: Kisame and Itachi are talking within a specific scenario. The scenario being can they capture the Kyuubi-Jinchuuriki with Jiriaya standing in their way. Kisame doesn't think he'd be able to do so alone because Jiriaya is a whole "level' beyond him. However Kisame suggest maybe Itachi could take Jiriaya, indicating he believes together they might be successful. Itachi however rebukes this claiming saying in reality Jiriaya could potentially beat both of them and at best due to his own efforts things may end in them all killing each other - which obviously would result in their mission failing. Than to hammer the point home he throws out a hypothetical where even more men wouldn't help. The dialog should be read as if Kisame can't imagine someone is better than Itachi, but Itachi disagrees

To give an example it's like if I beat my friend at chess all the time, so he thinks i'm some grand-master. Then when a real master comes along my friend knows the master is better than him, but can't really see me losing. But I know the master would probably beat me and at best I could put up a good fight. To hammer the point home I throw out some arbitrary hypothetical example to him, like; yeah even if we played 100 times I wouldn't win a single game. Now that may not be true and i'd actually win 35 games out of 100, but it still illustrates the point that this dude is better or at least equivalent to me. These types of hypothetical examples to illustrate a point is really something people do all the time in casual conversations and should never be taken seriously beyond their main point. Another example.

Person A, "Man this guy can hold his liquor really well, but you could probably out drink him"
Person B, "Nah he'd probably out drink me, at best maybe we could drink the same amount"
Person B, "Heck that guy can probably drink 20 beers and remain sober"

Guy probably can't drink 20 beers and remain sober, but it still illustrates the point that he's better than Person B and Person B would be lucky to keep up with him.

As for what Jiriaya the statement was referring to. "Base" Jiriaya is a fan made term so obviously Kisame/Itachi were not directly referring to Base-Jiraiya.  The question is on what information they were evaluating Jiriaya. I do not think given the context they were evaluating Jiriaya based on hype given that later in the convo Kisame basically admits that Jiraiya's hype is superior to his and Itachi's; yet perviously he was kind of believing Itachi could take him. So it's probably based on whatever intel they have on Jiriaya. From my perspective Kisame coming from the mist probably doesn't have as much intel on Jiriaya. However Kisame has seen Itachi's "feats" and therefore knows Itachi is very strong. So his perspective is probably "I haven't seen enough from person-B (Jiriaya)  to warrant me believing he can beat person-C (Itachi)."

On the other hand Itachi being from Konoha probably does know more about Jiriaya's capabilities and therefore holds Jiriaya in higher regard. The same thing is echoed to a certain extent after the hall-way confrontation. Kisame once again starts to think Itachi can take Jiriaya, because he still hasn't seen anything from Jiriaya that makes him believe he can beat Itachi. Which makes sense as he just saw Itachi defeat Jiriaya's jutsu, but Kisame is also clearly unaware of how much utilizing Amaterasu tax'd Itachi and still doesn't have much knowledge on Jiriaya, so he's still making an uninformed assumption, which the more informed Itachi disagrees with.

As for what Itachi's intel is on Jiriaya, I personally would guess it's that Jiraiya can use Sennin Modo. As that brings Jiriaya to a whole other level, and Kisame obviously would be ignorant of that. We also saw Itachi having knowledge of Sennin Modo as well as holding Sennin Modo in very high regard. 

When it comes to Jiriaya being able to solo Itachi and Kisame, seeming ludicrous well that's only because people are evaluating Kisame based on his PII display, back in PI, PI Kakashi could give him a tough match, so he obviously was nowhere near the level he was in the B or Gai fights back then. And by all rights he'd offer minimal if any assistance to Itachi. Further suggested by Itachi's dialog where he kind of writes of Kisame's usefulness indicating that if the outcome where they all killed each other was achieved it would be primarily due to his own efforts; not his  and Kisame's.

To put it all together the way I'd interpret it is as such:

Kisame thinks Itachi can take Jiriaya, Kisame is ignorant to the fact that Jiraiya can achieve a whole other "level" of strength with Sennin Modo though. So Kisame basically believe Itachi > "Base"-Jiriaya (Where "Base" here stands for what Kisame knew about him at the time).
Itachi on the other hand knows about Sennin Modo, so he's basically saying Sennin Modo Jiriaya >= him.

This makes sense and flows perfectly with the manga. Itachi is > "Base"-Jiriaya. However Sennin Modo Jiraiya >= Itachi also fits with what we've seen given events in the Kabuto fight. Basically this is consensus among most people that are being fair to both characters. Itachi beats Jiriaya if he doesn't achieve Sennin Modo, and if Jiriaya does achieve Sennin Modo he ether beats Itachi or at least puts up a very good fight against him.

However even if you don't believe Itachi's opinion was formulated specifically around his knowledge of Jiriaya having Sennin Modo, the dialog was still clearly Kishi's way of echoing the thoughts of readers:

Kisame stands in for readers, basically saying Jiriaya hasn't shown enough for him to beat Itachi and even after Jiriaya's performance in the hall way it's still not enough. While Itachi stands in for Kishi and basically hints well Jiraiya has some incredible power you haven't seen yet, which would enable him to do this. 

I just go with Sennin Modo as that is the power that most logically fits as it's the major power that Jiriaya has which is revealed in his final battle against Pain, that did indeed raise his level dramatically whilst using it.

When it comes to the statement being just an outright lie to persuade Kisame into not trying to capture Naruto. To me that does not make sense, as Itachi already had a goto excuse for not capturing Naruto; that they had plenty of time to do so as the Kyuubi needed to be sealed last. If he wanted to get out of trying to capture Naruto all he would have needed to say there is, the same thing he says all the other times, that there is no need to rush and instead I want to focus on other things right now. This is much more believable and palpable lie, than the alternative, I.E. Itachi trying to outright pretend that he's weaker than Jiraiya so Kisame stays away. After-all Kisame already knew he was weaker than Jiraiya and would need Itachi's back up to capture Naruto. So there was no need to sell Kisame on his inability, and if it was a lie meant to trick Kisame into believing Jiriaya was the reason he didn't want to capture Naruto, that doesn't make sense ether as Kisame was clearly not believing Itachi couldn't take Jiriaya ether way, as indicated by the fact that he once again brings this up when they flee from Jiriaya. So there would be absolutely no point to that lie, as Kisame still wouldn't trust Itachi's motives, ether way. And Itachi has been portrayed as both a good liar and deceiver, so this doesn't fit with his portrayal, and makes him look down right dumb for not simply using his normal goto excuse which Kisame is willing to easily accept, as would anyone else Kisame reports to.

My 2 cents


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

I'm sorry Turrin, I tried to read that, I really did, and I think I got the jist of it, can you confirm if I did?
Basically, Jiraiya could beat them, hypothetically, in some scenarios. 
Not refering to base jiraiya, but sage mode jiraiya?
English is not my native tongue, I don't really understand, could you post a numbed down version?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2014)

I'm not sure why Itachi would know of Sage Mode though


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

> I'm not sure why Itachi would know of Sage Mode though


In almost every time J-man is mention he's always mentioned as the toad sage.
The only reason Itachi wouldn't know about sage mode is if he didn't know it exists, but he definetly knows j-man is a sage and as such can use senjutsu.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> In almost every time J-man is mention he's always mentioned as the toad sage.
> The only reason Itachi wouldn't know about sage mode is if he didn't know it exists, but he definetly knows j-man is a sage and as such can use senjutsu.



That makes sense, I was just thinking that way because SM came into play and a character like Nagato who knew Jiraiya personally didn't know he had such a capability (via an observation from Animal Path)


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I'm sorry Turrin, I tried to read that, I really did, and I think I got the jist of it, can you confirm if I did?
> Basically, Jiraiya could beat them, hypothetically, in some scenarios.
> Not refering to base jiraiya, but sage mode jiraiya?
> English is not my native tongue, I don't really understand, could you post a numbed down version?


TLDR Version:

- From what Kisame knew about Itachi & Jiriaya to that point, he believes Itachi can beat Jiraiya. From what Itachi knew about Jiriaya & himself, he disagrees.

- The dialog imo is basically saying well Itachi is better from what Kisame's seen/knows, but Jiriaya has something up his sleeve that Kisame (and us, the readers, at that point in the manga) are unaware of that makes this unlikely. However Itachi is aware of this 

- Speculate the thing Kisame was unaware of that Itachi is, is Sennin Modo. It could be something else, but that fits the best at this point.

Given this I interpret the dialog as Itachi > Jiriaya's more well know arsenal, but his triumph would put him >= Itachi. Factoring in speculation, that said unknown quality equals  Sennin Modo, than Sennin Modo Jiriaya >= Itachi > Base-Jiriaya.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm not sure why Itachi would know of Sage Mode though


Itachi did know of Sennin Modo, as proven when he illustrates that knowledge in the Kabuto fight. The issue is did he know about Jiriaya having Sennin Modo... To hazard a guess at that question we have to consider how Itachi knows about Sennin Modo in the first place. Going back to the Kabuto fight Itachi begins to suspect that Kabuto has Sennin Modo when he mentions mastering an ability at Ryuuchidou:
witnessing his casual chakra exertion shattering a room by lifting a single finger

That tells us that Itachi is aware of the fact that the home of the Snake Summons is Ryuuchidou and is connected to Sennin Modo. 

Given this fact there is really only a few plausible explanations for Itachi's knowledge.

1) He learned of Ryuuchidou and it's connection to Sennin Modo from Orochimaru directly. 

However I do no think this is likely, as if Orochimaru was so loose lipped with his info, than Nagato would have also known about Ryuuchidou and Sennin Modo, and would not have been that surprised when Jiraiya utilized Sennin Modo or that unaware of what the ability entailed. We'd also expect Sasuke to be aware of this as well having spent 2.5 years with Orochimaru. Finally it's hard to see Orochimaru so willingly giving that information to his enemy. 

So to me that takes that option of the table.

2) Itachi learned of Ryuuchidou and it's connection to Sennin Modo from Jiriaya himself. People have long suspected that Jiriaya informant may have actually been Itachi, and that both of them shared information. 

Problem is Jiriaya did not act as if Itachi was his informant when he confronted him in the hall-way. Also it's been so long and so much of Itachi's story has been revealed I find it highly unlikely at this point that Kishi would still be holding back on such a major revelation. Also why wouldn't Jiriaya at least inform Kakashi of this fact at some point or Tsunade after she became Hokage. Nether of them showed any knowledge of this, so it would take one hell of an explanation as to why Jiriaya had to keep this to himself alone

So to me that takes that option of the table

3) Itachi personally did a-lot of digging and information gathering on Orochimaru, and than discovered information about Ryuuchidou and it's connection to Sennin Modo

I find this by far the most likely, as Itachi probably would want information on Orochimaru who was a major threat to his brother, leaf village, and even himself. So this is my explanation.

However if Itachi did do so much digging, it's extremely likely he also would know Ryuuchidou's connection to Myoubokuzan and Shikkotsurin forest, and therefore also know these are places that teach Sennin Modo. From there Jiraiya's connection to Myoubokuzan is very apparent, probably to anyone that has even basic knowledge of the Sannin given his signature Toad Summon. From there the fact that Jiriaya, has titles like Gama-Sennin and Sennin of the Legendar Sennin, would be a pretty big give away that he has mastery of Sennin Modo.


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## Cognitios (Jun 20, 2014)

Alright, I can agree to that, however where do you put
Sick Itachi, Healthy Itachi, and Edo Itachi on that scale?


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## Akitō (Jun 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kisame based on his PII display, back in PI, PI Kakashi could give him a tough match, so he obviously was nowhere near the level he was in the B or Gai fights back then.



I agree with the rest of your post, but where'd you get this from? Itachi makes it seem like Kisame could've beaten any of the three Konoha jōnin there individually quickly (at least based on the translation that I've read).


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I agree with the rest of your post, but where'd you get this from? Itachi makes it seem like Kisame could've beaten any of the three Konoha jōnin there individually quickly (at least based on the translation that I've read).


Your translation is notoriously bad. I get mine from NJT (one of the best translators) releases which is way better in this instance. He/She says:

NJT
お前が　その人とまともにやり合えば
ただでは済まない・・・
If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy...
*So in other words if Kisame fought then he wouldn't have an easy win since his opponet isn't an weak opponent. 
まともに= seriously
ただでは済まない= wouldn't get off easy.

それに時間をかければ
他の忍が　ここに駆けつけるだろう
Also if it takes time [to finish the fight] other shinobi will be on the way.



Cognitios said:


> Alright, I can agree to that, however where do you put
> Sick Itachi, Healthy Itachi, and Edo Itachi on that scale?


Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi is obviously inferior to Part I Itachi. Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi used 3 MS techniques and was on his knees hacking up blood and one of his eyes was nearly blind. P1 Itachi used 3 MS Techniques w/o much of a breather and said he should rest, but showed no signs of serious fatigue or physical well being, being so fucked. So it's very clear to me that P1 Itachi > Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi. So if by Sick Itachi you mean Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi, than Jiriaya would be even more decisively ahead of him at that juncture.

As for Healthy-Itachi. That's a tough one, because was PI-Itachi healthy Itachi, if so nothing changes. If not than something could change. However would it change is the question. For me the answer is probably not. Why because Edo-Itachi (who was healthy) never really showed anything drastically above even what Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi did stamina wise (or ability wise), outside of the fact that he wasn't suffering from eye-sight issues or coughing up blood. However I saw no signs of PI Itachi having these issues ether. So while I feel their might be a difference, nothing makes me believe the difference is substantial (between PI Itachi and Healthy Itachi). Maybe the difference would be enough where it goes from Sennin Modo Jiriaya is more likely to win, to instead it's more likely that Itachi can create that scenario where they kill each other, but to me that's the best case scenario.

When it comes to Edo-Itachi, Kishi did not making a point of almost any Edos that being upgraded from Edo-Perks much. Obviously these perks hold their advantages, but nothing substantial, otherwise I believe Kishimoto would have noted this to be the case for many characters. For example Onoki was not saying Mu or Nindaime Mizukage were much stronger as Tensei or even noted any difference in their strength. Team 10 didn't note any difference for Asuma. Etc... So I doubt Edo Perks really make much of a difference. With that said if someone were to say Edo-Itachi wins w/ high diff due to Edo-Perks enhancing him, I really wouldn't have an issue with that, as I think the manga indicates whether Sennin Modo Jiriaya held the edge or not, that they were not drastically far apart.

Though personally I still see Sennin Modo Jiriaya having the better odds to win, as to me Edo-Perks or not the shinobi in question still have all the same strength and same weakness. The only major difference being the immortal body, but Sennin Modo Jiriaya has Fuuinjutsu to deal with that, so it's a not nearly as big of an issue for him as it would be for some.

TLDR:

My Opinion Sennin Modo Jiraiya >= Edo Itachi >= Healthy Itachi >= P1 Itachi > Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi

However I can accept the opinion that: Edo Itachi >= Sennnin Modo Jiriaya = Healthy Itachi >= P1 Itachi > Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> My Opinion Sennin Modo Jiraiya >= Edo Itachi >= Healthy Itachi >= P1 Itachi >> Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi
> 
> However I can accept the opinion that: Edo Itachi >= Sennnin Modo Jiriaya >= Healthy Itachi >= P1 Itachi >> Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi



I actually think sick Itachi was stronger than part 1 Itachi,  in part 1 Itachi tired himself out horribly from using only Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi (and a few others, but he implied it was mostly due to them). Even sick, his stamina was significantly better


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2014)

It's 2014 and we're _still_ basing who will win a fight between these two based off of a statement made by a character who is vehemently known for lying, and isn't particularly trustworthy, when we have feats to back up our arguments instead? To me, that's a tad illogical. However, based off of feats Itachi wins both scenarios as he has the much more impressive feats. And, in this location, Jiraiya isn't going to be able to enter the one thing that will let him stand any chance in scenario 1, Sennin Modo.

Itachi takes this. His jutsu are more powerful and Jiraiya has no counters to any of them: Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> It's 2014 and we're _still_ basing who will win a fight between these two based off of a statement made by a character who is vehemently known for lying, and isn't particularly trustworthy, when we have feats to back up our arguments instead? To me, that's a tad illogical. /QUOTE]
> It's 2014 and we're still denying cannon. Your better than this Bloo.
> 
> 
> ...


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## MisterMinato23 (Jun 21, 2014)

I agree Itachi takes this but it kind of boggles my mind because I thought Itachi said once that even if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya together they would lose. The series in my eyes can be a little inconsistent with power scaling.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's 2014 and we're still denying cannon. Your better than this Bloo.


Enlighten me as to which cannon I'm denying? Itachi is a famed liar, and was specifically not wanting to instigate harm towards the village. Talking either Naruto or Jiraiya (because based on translations, it's very debatable as to who he meant) up would be logical given his mission. Nothing I said is against the cannon of the plot. In fact, if you follow that odd dialogue exchange, and vehemently believe it, then you also believe that _Base_ Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + Backup (which probably refers to other Akatsuki members, which also includes Pein).




> It starts at 50+ meters. The conditions are extremely beneficial for Jiriaya entering Sennin Modo.


Do you remember how long it took Jiraiya to summon Ma and Pa to go into Sennin Modo? He literally had to hide in a city and was far outside line of sight for a huge portion of the time it took to summon them. 50 meters is hardly any distance for someone as fast as Itachi. 


> Sennin Modo Jiriaya has counters to all of them
> 
> Tsukuyomi - Sennin Modo Sensing (From Ether J-man himself or Fusaku/Shima)
> Amaterasu - Sennin Modo Sensing (From Ether J-man himself or Fusaku/Shima)
> Susano'o - Senpo Sound Based Techniques


And we don't know how Ma and Pa would even work as counters for Tsukuyomi. A Perfect Jinchuuruki took a decent amount of time to even realize it was under Itachi's genjutsu and to snap out of it. I highly doubt that Ma and Pa will be of much use against Tsukuyomi. But, how does sensing have anything to do with Tsukuyomi? They might know he's about to do it, and then they're forced to not look in his eyes and Jiraiya isn't trained like Gai to fight only looking at feet. So, I don't see how that's a counter. That's a basic combat strategy for combating the sharingan. 

Amaterasu? He still has to be fast enough to avoid it.

And Jiraiya doesn't have a counter to Susano'o. He can combat it, but he has no guaranteed counters. Yomi Numa is the only chance Jiraiya has, and Chikushodō avoided it easily.



> All of these have been proven effective in the manga-cannon


This is very inaccurate. Jiraiya has yet to combat any of the jutsu being discussed. Please don't mention the one time he saw the flames of Amaterasu. It took him a long time to sit and seal it. That is inapplicable to a battle scenario.


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## Bloo (Jun 21, 2014)

MisterMinato23 said:


> I agree Itachi takes this but it kind of boggles my mind because I thought Itachi said once that even if he and Kisame fought Jiraiya together they would lose. The series in my eyes can be a little inconsistent with power scaling.


Itachi most likely lied about it. And the way the dialogue was organized, Itachi and Kisame mention a "he" as the man that would be hard to take down. Then, they say that "he" has a guardian known as Jiraiya. I highly doubt they were even talking about Jiraiya, and were more worried about the idea of Naruto being a perfect Jinchuuriki. Which, is why that page is absolute garbage to use for a debate.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 21, 2014)

On the statement about Jiraiya ; 

I don't think we have to take it literally @ this point. It was made way too early on in the manga, before neither Itachi or Jiraiya or any powerful character were properly developed. 

That stament was never enforced with additional evidence, be it hype or feats.

For example, Orochimaru admitted that Itachi was stronger than him, outright. And then we've seen Itachi literally make a tool out of Orochimaru in a couple of panels in a flashback. And variations of that same statement were repeated through other characters and in the end, Itachi 2 paneled Orochimaru once again.
So there is no reason for anyone to doubt Orochimaru's admission of inferiority. At least the author did everything within his capability to do so.

As for the "Jiraiya" statement, we have tons of evidence that makes us question the validity of that statement. Displays from both characters, additional hype and portrayal.


@ the time, Itachi may have overestimated Jiraiya based on his reputation, or out of respect for him. Could be anything. I don't think it is important anymore really. 
The only thing I am willing to take from that statement is that, @ that point in the manga, both Itachi and Jiriaya were high level nins on a similar level.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Enlighten me as to which cannon I'm denying? Itachi is a famed liar,


There is a difference between someone being know for their deception and them literally lying about everything. When it comes to Itachi specifically, Kishi has spent time highlighting all of Itachi's lies. We're 600+ chapters deep now and still Kishi has not highlighted this as an instance of Itach's deception. Instead Kishi has continued to give pieces of info that align well with Itachi's hesitance to face Jiraiya. Itachi's knowledge and reaction to Sennin Modo, fits with this perfectly. For example it's very hard for me to believe that a guy can freak out that much about the power of Sennin Modo and than be so far beyond a Sennin Modo user in strength.



> and was specifically not wanting to instigate harm towards the village


Of course he didn't, but that is not synonymous with him lying about Jiraiya. He had a perfectly good excuse as to leaving the Kyuubi-Jinchuuriki be - "there's no need to rush, because Kyuubi can be sealed last". In-fact that was the truth and something Kisame was willing to accept as making sense. So why put on this whole dog and pony show to try and to convince Kisame Jiraiya was the reason, when it wouldn't assuage Kisame's suspicions anyway, as Kisame thought till the very end that Itachi could take Jiriaya? In-fact why was it necessary to give excuses to Kisame in the first place? Kisame already admitted he couldn't capture Naruto alone, so him going rouge was never an option at that point. Was he worried Kisame would tell Nagato; if so the no need to rush excuse would also be more effective cover, rather than trying to trick Nagato into believing someone he knows well (Jiriaya) is stronger than him (Itachi), as that's a deception which Nagato would also be much more suspicious of, than the no need to rush excuse.



> alking either Naruto or Jiraiya (because based on translations, it's very debatable as to who he meant)


The best translators on the forum all agree it refers to Jiriaya. I can quote them if you like.



> Nothing I said is against the cannon of the plot.


It's not against the cannon of the plot, in the sense that it can be forced to fit, but I don't like the idea that just because a character has lied in the past, that it gives us the right, to completely craft our own story for why a character was lying. To me it's like if I said Orochimaru was lying about being weaker than Itachi, because he didn't fully trust Kabuto and later lied to Sasuke so he would willingly give him his body. Which was the story many Orochimaru-fans touted until Kishimoto literally had to throw it into their face that this was not true with showing Itachi defeat Orochimaru. I see no difference between this and that, except, we never got Jiraiya vs Itachi; though we did get Itachi's reaction to the power of Sennin Modo and how many Senpo techniques Jiriaya possess can deal with Itachi's arsenal.



> In fact, if you follow that odd dialogue exchange, and vehemently believe it, then you also believe that Base Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame .


Where are you getting "Base" Jiriaya from? Itachi demonstrated knowledge of Ryuuchidou and Sennin Modo in the Kabuto fight. It's extremely likely that he knows Myoubokuzan is also tied to Sennin Modo, and given Jiraiya's titles like Gama Sennin and Sennin of the Legendary Sannin, it's not hard for someone of Itachi's intelligence to put 2 and 2 together. This is assuming that Itachi doesn't have knowledge of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo through other means, which is not a provable premise ether. Or that Kishi when writing that dialog didn't bother to consider whether Itachi was in a position to have that knowledge or not.



> Backup


The back up thing was meant as a hypothetical scenario which shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like if you said this dude is better than me or at least equivalent to me at arm wrestling and than to hammer the point home said, even if we had a match 100 times, I'd still never win. You probably would win a few matches, but it doesn't change the point of the example, being that this guy is >= to you at arm releasing. In casual speech people use these type of extreme hypothetical statements all the time. 



> (which probably refers to other Akatsuki members, which also includes Pein).


I don't think the natural assumption here would be that it refers to other Akatsuki members. Kisame and Itachi don't have an authority to command other Akatsuki members to act as their back up (the least of which being Pain/Nagato, who actually holds authority over them). The more natural assumption would be Itachi is referring to someone like Sasori's minions (Yura) or people that Itachi controlled with Genjutsu. 

However even if it were referring to other Akatsuki members, we know their were members back in the day that Kakuzu fodder-stomped in his rage.  Even Zetsu we don't know how strong someone like Itachi viewed him; without knowing much about him he may simply view him as a suppor specialist and spy. Any of these members could also fits with the statement and not contradict anything.

Also this idea just downright doesn't make sense with what your trying to assert. I mean if Itachi was trying to deceive Kisame and at the same time "back-up" refers to Akatsuki or even just multiple of the named members, than there is no way Kisame would buy that. So why would Itachi intentionally make his lie more difficult for Kisame to buy into, by adding the "more-men" comment? 

With that said I still think this is over analyzing the statement to a degree that goes against the context of the statement, as it's clearly not meant to be taken serious beyond it's overarching point that Jiriaya >= Itachi.



> Do you remember how long it took Jiraiya to summon Ma and Pa to go into Sennin Modo? He literally had to hide in a city and was far outside line of sight for a huge portion of the time it took to summon them.


What makes you think it took long for Jiriaya to enter Sennin Modo. Their was a brief summon exchange between Jiriaya and Animal realm, and by the end of it Jiriaya was already in Sennin Modo.



> 50 meters is hardly any distance for someone as fast as Itachi.


When has Itachi ever cross such a large distance rapidly? Itachi is quick, but he he won't even cross 20m before Jiriaya has pulled out Gammabunta and had Bunta leap backwards. Than Itachi is left with even more distance between himself and Jiriaya, and with that distance growing tremendously with each leap Bunta makes. He's also left trying to cross that distance while being harassed by Bunta's long-range attacks like Water-Gun Shot, Oil, and the likely addition of other Suiton Techniques Bunta has mastered.



> And we don't know how Ma and Pa would even work as counters for Tsukuyomi. A Perfect Jinchuuruki took a decent amount of time to even realize it was under Itachi's genjutsu and to snap out of it. I highly doubt that Ma and Pa will be of much use against Tsukuyomi. But, how does sensing have anything to do with Tsukuyomi? T.


They would sense when Itachi is going to use it and therefore be ready with a sufficient counter; Blocking LOS, Avoiding Eye-Contact, KB, or disrupting Itachi with one of their own attacks.



> They might know he's about to do it, and then they're forced to not look in his eyes


If they select avoiding eye-contact as their counter, they only have to avoid eye-contact when Itachi attempts to utilize a Dojutsu Technique, which is not going to be the entire match. 

But let's say Itachi tries to feint them. He goes to use Tsukuyomi; get them to avoid eye-contact, thus create an opening to use a physical attack or one of his basic ninjutsu techniques. Okay, but what does that really do against Sennin Modo Jiriaya. With Sennin Modo's durability and regen, Jiriaya would tank any non Dojutsu technique Itachi could throw at him

Beyond this they have others means to track Itachi besides visually, which brings me to your next point....



> and Jiraiya isn't trained like Gai to fight only looking at feet.


Jiriaya doesn't need to be trained to use Gai's method (though certainly that's not a provable statement), as he has other means to track Itachi. Shima's Tongu, Detection Barrier, KB, and most importantly Shima & Fukasaku can use Sennin Modo Sensing to track Itachi. In-fact Jiraiya himself may also be able to use Sennin Modo sensing, but there is really no need to even go there as he has Fukasaku and Shima to do so for him.



> Amaterasu? He still has to be fast enough to avoid it.


He has to be fast enough to block LOS. 

Here is when Nagato senses Itachi going to use Amaterasu:
two

As you can see from the time Nagato first senses it, to the time when it's intercepted (not even utilized) by the Crow's Kotoamatsukami; Base-B has enough time to throw a sword, the sword to travel to Itachi's height on the flying bird, and Nagato to use ST to deflect it. 

Now let's apply this to Sennin Modo Jiriaya. Surely Sennin Modo sensing is at least as good as Nagato's sensing, if not better (certainly Sennin Modo Sensing has better feats). Also surely it does not take Sennin Modo Jiriaya (or Fukasaku/Shima) longer to utilize a Jutsu to block LOS, than it takes Base-B to throw a sword, sword to travel to Itachi, and Nagato to ST it away.

Beyond that someone with Sennin Modo sensing directly has feats of sensing and reacting to Amaterasu. I see no reason to believe Kabuto is faster than Sennin Modo Jiriaya (or Fukasaku and Shima). Base Jiriaya has a better speed stat than Base Kabuto in the DB. Fuksaku was keeping pace with Sennin Modo Naruto in CQC, and a Sennin Modo Naruto clone evade and counter punched Sandaime Raikage at the last second. 



> And Jiraiya doesn't have a counter to Susano'o. He can combat it, but he has no guaranteed counters. Yomi Numa is the only chance Jiraiya has, and Chikushodō avoided it easily.




Jiraiya has access to powerful Senpo Sound based Techniques:  & .

Additionally given Fusaku and Shima's characterization, it's likely that have command over even more Sound-Based techniques. Jiraiya may also be capable of utilizing some.


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## Dr. White (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin I want you to meet me at Drexel University in a week. I will bring with me one laptop, all relevant volumes of Naruto, a English to Japanese Translator, one Databook, and somenotes from Kishi.

Then I will explain to you why Itachi stated him vs Jiraiya would end in a stalemate regardless of backup.


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## Cognitios (Jun 21, 2014)

> Turrin I want you to meet me at Drexel University in a week. I will bring with me one laptop, all relevant volumes of Naruto, a English to Japanese Translator, one Databook, and somenotes from Kishi.


This i'd like to see, you have personal notes from Kishi?


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## Dr. White (Jun 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> This i'd like to see, you have personal notes from Kishi?



No I'm talking about publicized things from Kishi. stuff from interviews, etc.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Turrin I want you to meet me at Drexel University in a week. I will bring with me one laptop, all relevant volumes of Naruto, a English to Japanese Translator, one Databook, and somenotes from Kishi.
> 
> Then I will explain to you why Itachi stated him vs Jiraiya would end in a stalemate regardless of backup.


Question 1 are you a guy or a girl?

If the answer is a guy, than I don't care enough to meet somewhere in person to debate the Naruto-manga.

If the answer is a girl, than perhaps I could be persuaded some how 

In all seriousness though, I think it would be fun to get a beer with someone who posts on the forums (famous last words before getting axe murdered) :cheers

Unfortunately I no longer live in Phili


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## Dr. White (Jun 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Question 1 are you a guy or a girl?
> 
> If the answer is a guy, than I don't care enough to meet somewhere in person to debate the Naruto-manga.
> 
> ...



Ha I was just joking, it was just a Pa nod. But in all seriousness Turrin, the context of Itachi's quote and his behavior all around indicate Itachi was trying to both appease Kisame's suspsicions, and keep the village safe/Naruto not taken. 

Kisame wasn't afraid of fighting Gai and Kakashi despite honoring the formers title, and he only showed heed to Jiraiya. Once Jiraiya cast his frog jutsu Kisame was literally shitting bricks. It was the perfect time, along with his second MS use, for them to scat without achieving the thing they came for in the first place. Like I said if Naruto ended after pt. 1, then that quote would stand. but with later revelations of Itachi's powerlevel, skill, and intentions it doesn't make sense in a literary sense nonetheless from a combat standpoint.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ha I was just joking, it was just a Pa nod. But in all seriousness Turrin, the context of Itachi's quote and his behavior all around indicate Itachi was trying to both appease Kisame's suspsicions, and keep the village safe/Naruto not taken.
> 
> Kisame wasn't afraid of fighting Gai and Kakashi despite honoring the formers title, and he only showed heed to Jiraiya. Once Jiraiya cast his frog jutsu Kisame was literally shitting bricks. It was the perfect time, along with his second MS use, for them to scat without achieving the thing they came for in the first place. Like I said if Naruto ended after pt. 1, then that quote would stand. but with later revelations of Itachi's powerlevel, skill, and intentions it doesn't make sense in a literary sense nonetheless from a combat standpoint.


I disagree. For reason why see my prior posts in this thread.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 21, 2014)

Imo jiraiya isn't someone itachi can beat without approaching him as a serious enemy,  which is why he made that statement.

When jiraiya summoned the toad stomach, itachi could of easily used amatarasu on him and not the toad stomach, that would of dispelled the technique all together and killed jiraiya. 


Kishi won't go out his way to portray jiraiya and orochimaru as equals, then turn around and make itachi solo oro with mid difficulty. 

That's a conflict of portrayal itachi never saw jiraiya fight and is discouraged by his sanin reputation even tho he had back up, yet he could solo, another sanin with mid difficulty with no back up?


We then find out itachi was a good guy and it just so happens the sanin he chose to solo was the one against his village,  I mean  how much clearer can it get?


Even at the beginning of part 2 sasuke, remarks for both him and Orochimaru killing, itachi would be impossible.


oro and jiraiya is both paralleled again with the 4 tailed kyubi.


I think this should be proof enough to show us itachi is portrayed above sanin level


he out classes jiraiya in intelligence, speed, defense, and fire power I literally can't see why people think jman is stronger.


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## Bloo (Jun 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is a difference between someone being know for their deception and them literally lying about everything. When it comes to Itachi specifically, Kishi has spent time highlighting all of Itachi's lies. We're 600+ chapters deep now and still Kishi has not highlighted this as an instance of Itach's deception. Instead Kishi has continued to give pieces of info that align well with Itachi's hesitance to face Jiraiya. Itachi's knowledge and reaction to Sennin Modo, fits with this perfectly. For example it's very hard for me to believe that a guy can freak out that much about the power of Sennin Modo and than be so far beyond a Sennin Modo user in strength.


Itachi didn't freak out over a Sennin Modo user. He was more so shocked that Kabuto was even able to do it. Why would Itachi, who is an immortal with infinite chakra at that point, be intimidated by Kabuto? And Itachi beat Kabuto while being massively crippled in the fact that he couldn't go for the kill and Sasuke was held back massively in spite of that as well. And many of Itachi's lies do not need to be cleared up. Why would Itachi randomly bring up the time he hyped up Jiraiya to Kisame and how he lied about that to avoid conflict to characters that didn't even hear it? That serves no purpose and it shouldn't need clarification as we have feats that suggest that that statement was total bullshit and plenty of plot reasonings.


> Of course he didn't, but that is not synonymous with him lying about Jiraiya. He had a perfectly good excuse as to leaving the Kyuubi-Jinchuuriki be - "there's no need to rush, because Kyuubi can be sealed last". In-fact that was the truth and something Kisame was willing to accept as making sense. So why put on this whole dog and pony show to try and to convince Kisame Jiraiya was the reason, when it wouldn't assuage Kisame's suspicions anyway, as Kisame thought till the very end that Itachi could take Jiriaya? In-fact why was it necessary to give excuses to Kisame in the first place? Kisame already admitted he couldn't capture Naruto alone, so him going rouge was never an option at that point. Was he worried Kisame would tell Nagato; if so the no need to rush excuse would also be more effective cover, rather than trying to trick Nagato into believing someone he knows well (Jiriaya) is stronger than him (Itachi), as that's a deception which Nagato would also be much more suspicious of, than the no need to rush excuse.


Again, that's assuming Jiraiya is the topic.



> The best translators on the forum all agree it refers to Jiriaya. I can quote them if you like.


Please do. And even then, are you really going to believe the statement that Itachi + Kisame + Other Akatsuki Members < Jiraiya? Considering one Akatsuki member easily killed Jiraiya?



> It's not against the cannon of the plot, in the sense that it can be forced to fit, but I don't like the idea that just because a character has lied in the past, that it gives us the right, to completely craft our own story for why a character was lying. To me it's like if I said Orochimaru was lying about being weaker than Itachi, because he didn't fully trust Kabuto and later lied to Sasuke so he would willingly give him his body. Which was the story many Orochimaru-fans touted until Kishimoto literally had to throw it into their face that this was not true with showing Itachi defeat Orochimaru. I see no difference between this and that, except, we never got Jiraiya vs Itachi; though we did get Itachi's reaction to the power of Sennin Modo and how many Senpo techniques Jiriaya possess can deal with Itachi's arsenal.


It's not forcing anything. I'm acknowledging that Itachi is a famed liar and also the displayed feats that should make it very logical to assume that Itachi + Kisame + Backup would not struggle with Jiraiya when Itachi alone could compete with him, if not beat him.



> Where are you getting "Base" Jiriaya from? Itachi demonstrated knowledge of Ryuuchidou and Sennin Modo in the Kabuto fight. It's extremely likely that he knows Myoubokuzan is also tied to Sennin Modo, and given Jiraiya's titles like Gama Sennin and Sennin of the Legendary Sannin, it's not hard for someone of Itachi's intelligence to put 2 and 2 together. This is assuming that Itachi doesn't have knowledge of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo through other means, which is not a provable premise ether. Or that Kishi when writing that dialog didn't bother to consider whether Itachi was in a position to have that knowledge or not.


I said Base Jiraiya because it takes a pretty sizeable amount of time for Jiraiya to go into Sage Mode, even Naruto who has perfected it needs a huge chunk of time to sit still and actually go into it. Itachi and Kisame wouldn't allow that in a fight and the only reason Jiraiya was able to do so with Peine is because he was able to hide in a huge city.



> The back up thing was meant as a hypothetical scenario which shouldn't be taken seriously. It's like if you said this dude is better than me or at least equivalent to me at arm wrestling and than to hammer the point home said, even if we had a match 100 times, I'd still never win. You probably would win a few matches, but it doesn't change the point of the example, being that this guy is >= to you at arm releasing. In casual speech people use these type of extreme hypothetical statements all the time.


Itachi doesn't speak with exaggerations often, and again that just would mean that that entire speech is an exaggeration that shouldn't be taken seriously by that logic. And in that case, I actually agree with this point.



> I don't think the natural assumption here would be that it refers to other Akatsuki members. Kisame and Itachi don't have an authority to command other Akatsuki members to act as their back up (the least of which being Pain/Nagato, who actually holds authority over them). The more natural assumption would be Itachi is referring to someone like Sasori's minions (Yura) or people that Itachi controlled with Genjutsu.



They don't have authority to command, but to ask? I really think you're overcomplicating this. I highly doubt an organization is going to be against working together. And how are minions being controlled by Itachi backup? That's still Itachi. And minions by Sasori would be by the power of Sasori, and thus backup from the Akatsuki.



> However even if it were referring to other Akatsuki members, we know their were members back in the day that Kakuzu fodder-stomped in his rage.  Even Zetsu we don't know how strong someone like Itachi viewed him; without knowing much about him he may simply view him as a suppor specialist and spy.* Any of these members could also fits with the statement and not contradict anything.*


Other than the fact that Itachi + Kisame being weaker than Jiraiya is still massively inaccurate that it shouldn't be up for discussion.



> Also this idea just downright doesn't make sense with what your trying to assert. I mean if Itachi was trying to deceive Kisame and at the same time "back-up" refers to Akatsuki or even just multiple of the named members, than there is no way Kisame would buy that. So why would Itachi intentionally make his lie more difficult for Kisame to buy into, by adding the "more-men" comment?


As you said yourself: This is a form of exaggeration people use when playing arm-wrestling to hype the stronger player up and it shouldn't be taken seriously.



> With that said I still think this is over analyzing the statement to a degree that goes against the context of the statement, as it's clearly not meant to be taken serious beyond it's overarching point that Jiriaya >= Itachi.


Yes. That's the point Itachi was trying to sell. And if we were going strictly off that panel to decide this and the manga stopped after Part I, then yes Jiraiya would be stronger than Itachi. But, unfortunately, we have panels upon panels of feats by both of them and we've seen what they're capable of and Itachi is >= Jiraiya.




> What makes you think it took long for Jiriaya to enter Sennin Modo. Their was a brief summon exchange between Jiriaya and Animal realm, and by the end of it Jiriaya was already in Sennin Modo.


He was running around in Amegakure hiding and avoiding conflict to summon them.



> When has Itachi ever cross such a large distance rapidly? Itachi is quick, but he he won't even cross 20m before Jiriaya has pulled out Gammabunta and had Bunta leap backwards. Than Itachi is left with even more distance between himself and Jiriaya, and with that distance growing tremendously with each leap Bunta makes. He's also left trying to cross that distance while being harassed by Bunta's long-range attacks like Water-Gun Shot, Oil, and the likely addition of other Suiton Techniques Bunta has mastered.


50 meters is roughly over 150 ft. That isn't much distance, actually. And he covered a comparable distance almost immediately when he appeared behind Bee when they squared off. And a summon against someone of Itachi's level isn't much help, an Amaterasu would take care of it.



> They would sense when Itachi is going to use it and therefore be ready with a sufficient counter; Blocking LOS, Avoiding Eye-Contact, KB, or disrupting Itachi with one of their own attacks.


Only the first two would be effective, unless you mean try to feint Itachi with a KB. Itachi's Tsukuyomi happens in an instant. Once Jiraiya is hit with it, attack Itachi would mean that Jiraiya already lived through the jutsu.



> If they select avoiding eye-contact as their counter, they only have to avoid eye-contact when Itachi attempts to utilize a Dojutsu Technique, which is not going to be the entire match.


Itachi has finger genjutsu that they won't be expecting in any way.


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## Bloo (Jun 23, 2014)

> But let's say Itachi tries to feint them. He goes to use Tsukuyomi; get them to avoid eye-contact, thus create an opening to use a physical attack or one of his basic ninjutsu techniques. Okay, but what does that really do against Sennin Modo Jiriaya. *With Sennin Modo's durability and regen, Jiriaya would tank any non Dojutsu technique Itachi could throw at him*


That is one of the most unfounded statements I've heard you say and is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Yes, Sennin Modo grants enhanced physical strength and durability, but Tsukuyomi attacks the mind and spirit, something that isn't strengthened by Sennin Modo. Genjutsu can affect Sennin Modo users just as it would a normal user, unless you're Kabuto and can seal your vision. Speaking of Kabuto, he was a full sage and yet Izanami worked on him just as it would anyone else.



> Beyond this they have others means to track Itachi besides visually, which brings me to your next point....
> 
> Jiriaya doesn't need to be trained to use Gai's method (though certainly that's not a provable statement), as he has other means to track Itachi. Shima's Tongu, Detection Barrier, KB, and most importantly Shima & Fukasaku can use Sennin Modo Sensing to track Itachi. In-fact Jiraiya himself may also be able to use Sennin Modo sensing, but there is really no need to even go there as he has Fukasaku and Shima to do so for him.


That's all fine and dandy, but the problem is Gai trained himself to break the habit of looking into his opponents eyes. Sakura massively struggled with standing still and just looking at Itachi's feet, as did Kurenai and Asuma. It's a habit to look into your opponent's eyes because anyone who does martial arts or fighting of any kind, you're trained specifically to do so. That's why they're taught to flee upon encountering the sharingan. Jiraiya looked into Itachi's eyes MANY times when they encountered one another. Any one of those times, Itachi could have used Tsukuyomi and ended the match right there. It's more than just having a way to track the opponent..



> He has to be fast enough to block LOS.
> 
> Here is when Nagato senses Itachi going to use Amaterasu:
> the revival of the Ten-Tails evidently happening right before his eyes?
> ...


That's nice that they'll be able to sense when he may do it, but it's still a very hard jutsu to avoid. Jiraiya would have to not attack during that time and completely avoid LOS the entire time. Itachi isn't going to spit it out at random.



> Jiraiya_Fusaku and Shima_ [have] access to powerful Senpo Sound based Techniques:  & .
> 
> Additionally given Fusaku and Shima's characterization, it's likely that have command over even more Sound-Based techniques. Jiraiya may also be capable of utilizing some.


And that's if Itachi doesn't just sit there while they plan this out. Again, it took a while for them to prepare that jutsu.

Your entire argument revolves around Jiraiya being in Sage Mode, and even then it's a major battle that will not be easy for either side. However, Jiraiya starting off in base puts him at a major disadvantage and will ultimately give this match to Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> >2014
> > People still think SM Jiraiya is Itachi's equal.



 **


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Itachi didn't freak out over a Sennin Modo user. He was more so shocked that Kabuto was even able to do it. .






> . Why would Itachi, who is an immortal with infinite chakra at that point, be intimidated by Kabuto?


Because Edos can be defeated just like everyone else and Itachi doesn't want to fail his mission.



> And Itachi beat Kabuto while being massively crippled in the fact that he couldn't go for the kill and Sasuke was held back massively in spite of that as well.


Please don't make my opinion of you diminish by not citing Itachi's advantages and Kabuto's disadvantages. Also this was never about Itachi vs Kabuto. Simply the fact that he considered Sennin Modo a serious threat.



> . And many of Itachi's lies do not need to be cleared up. Why would Itachi randomly bring up the time he hyped up Jiraiya to Kisame and how he lied about that to avoid conflict to characters that didn't even hear it?


Itachi doesn't need to bring it up. When Kishi has a character talk about Itachi's lies he could have simply put that scene in the background of a panel to reference that as one of Itachi's lies. He also had a prime opportunity to reference that scene when Kisame died and was thinking back to lies he had been told. And so on; there are literally hundreds of scenario's I could dream up where referencing this scene as a lie would have made contextual sense. 



> That serves no purpose and it shouldn't need clarification as we have feats that suggest that that statement was total bullshit and plenty of plot reasonings.


Holding an opinion that Itachi has better "feats" doesn't justify an entirely made up scenario being true. 



> Please do


Here's What Gottheim had to say


*Spoiler*: __ 



Gottheim, 

"I insist that the way the conversation goes down makes it look like they're talking about Naruto first, only to bring in Jiraiya later as Naruto's caretaker and a threat in his own right. This is evidenced by the way njt and Viz translated it.

However, I did what I always do when I can't conclusively settle an argument or understand something. I went through the Japanese Internet (2chan, among others) to see what they think. The general consensus there seems to be that the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not Naruto (Kyuubi) then Jiraiya as I thought.

They do have a problem with it, but it has to do with the contradiction between Itachi's claims that Jiraiya could handle Kisame+Itachi+reinforcements and Orochimaru saying that Itachi surpasses him (which is kinda reminiscent of a certain "Back then, he saw through everything I did"). To say nothing of the feats that have been displayed in the manga, which effectively put Jiraiya a cut above the rest of the Sannin and more or less on par with Itachi. Slightly below or above him, depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

This effectively settles the argument in the opposition's favor. Those who said it was all about Jiraiya were actually right, and I now I get to eat crow"





Shounensuki also stated the topic was Jiriaya, though I don't have the exact post. Additionally I did a write up on why it makes no sense they were referring to Naruto. Feel free to view that as well:




> It's not forcing anything. I'm acknowledging that Itachi is a famed liar and also the displayed feats that should make it very logical to assume that Itachi + Kisame + Backup would not struggle with Jiraiya when Itachi alone could compete with him, if not beat him.


You have one piece of information; Itachi lies. Out of that you've generate an entirely fictional scenario and are using that to disregard an entire statement. How is that fair?



> I said Base Jiraiya because it takes a pretty sizeable amount of time for Jiraiya to go into Sage Mode, even Naruto who has perfected it needs a huge chunk of time to sit still and actually go into it. Itachi and Kisame wouldn't allow that in a fight and the only reason Jiraiya was able to do so with Peine is because he was able to hide in a huge city.


This does not prove that Itachi was talking about only Jiriaya's base abilities.



> Itachi doesn't speak with exaggerations often, and again that just would mean that that entire speech is an exaggeration that shouldn't be taken seriously by that logic. And in that case, I actually agree with this point.


That's not how language works Bloo. It's not like if in a convo you make one extreme hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point, suddenly everything you said in that convo was an exaggeration. We should still take the point of that scene seriously. The point being that Itachi considered Jiriaya >= him.



> They don't have authority to command, but to ask? I really think you're overcomplicating this..


Dude how am I overcomplicating it. Literally I said that the more "back-up" thing shouldn't be taken seriously, given the language used. Than simply said there isn't proof that Itachi was referring to the exact Akatsuki members your citing, anyway. 



> Other than the fact that Itachi + Kisame being weaker than Jiraiya is still massively inaccurate that it shouldn't be up for discussion.


Kisame was not that strong in P1 and Itachi was basically writing him off as useless in that dialog. Jiriaya >= Itachi makes sense.



> As you said yourself: This is a form of exaggeration people use when playing arm-wrestling to hype the stronger player up and it shouldn't be taken seriously.


So than you agree it was an exaggeration, that shouldn't be taken seriously 



> But, unfortunately, we have panels upon panels of feats by both of them and we've seen what they're capable of and Itachi is >= Jiraiya.


A subjective opinion based only on the abilities of characters that were shown to readers, is really no reason at all to ignore a point blank statement.



> He was running around in Amegakure hiding and avoiding conflict to summon them.


Like I said a brief summon exchange, which by the end of it he was already in Sennin Modo.



> 50 meters is roughly over 150 ft. That isn't much distance, actually. And he covered a comparable distance almost immediately when he appeared behind Bee when they squared off.


Bloo come on, that' was no where even remotely close to 50m. The lower right hand panel shows the distance between Itachi and B:
Read the rest of the page.

Kishi considers the length Chidori Eisou only 5m:
Read the rest of the page.

Given that, Itachi didn't even cross 5m when he got behind B.



> And a summon against someone of Itachi's level isn't much help, an Amaterasu would take care of it.


When has Itachi casted Amaterasu from 50m. Also Itachi wastes an Amaterasu on a summon, than Jiriaya just pulls out another one. Itachi comes out of that much worse.



> Only the first two would be effective, unless you mean try to feint Itachi with a KB. Itachi's Tsukuyomi happens in an instant. Once Jiraiya is hit with it, attack Itachi would mean that Jiraiya already lived through the jutsu.


All of them are effective because Fukasaku and Shima can sense the moment Itachi even builds chakra up to his Dojutsu, before he even uses the Jutsu.



> Itachi has finger genjutsu that they won't be expecting in any way.


Fukasaku and Shima casually break Jiriaya free of finger Genjutsu. If Jiriaya himself can't casually break free with Senjutsu enhanced Kai.



> That is one of the most unfounded statements I've heard you say .


Bloo, re-read what I said

" With Sennin Modo's durability and regen, Jiriaya would tank any *non *Dojutsu technique Itachi could throw at him"



> That's all fine and dandy, but the problem is Gai trained himself to break the habit of looking into his opponents eyes. Sakura massively struggled with standing still and just looking at Itachi's feet, as did Kurenai and Asuma. It's a habit to look into your opponent's eyes because anyone who does martial arts or fighting of any kind, you're trained specifically to do so. That's why they're taught to flee upon encountering the sharingan.


Gai expect Kurunai and Asuma to be able to get the knack of fighting while avoiding eye-contact in the heat of battle.. So it can not be as hard as your making it out to be. 

Jiriaya having multiple means of detection, 50+ years of battle experience, and having been shown to fight with his visoon obscured by smoke-screens, is not going to have an issue.



> Jiraiya looked into Itachi's eyes MANY times when they encountered one another. Any one of those times, Itachi could have used Tsukuyomi and ended the match right there. It's more than just having a way to track the opponent..


This not a provable assertion. Just because there is a panel focusing on Jiriaya's face and Itachi's doesn't mean eye-contact. Like-wise Jiriaya had a Toad out to break him free and Itachi didn't have Mangekyo activated.



> That's nice that they'll be able to sense when he may do it, but it's still a very hard jutsu to avoid. Jiraiya would have to not attack during that time and completely avoid LOS the entire time. Itachi isn't going to spit it out at random.


Jiriaya can attack just fine. What he uses to block LOS can be an attack itself; he's also been shown to fight proficiently in smoke screens. Or if he uses KB, both him and the Bushin can attack. Etc...



> And that's if Itachi doesn't just sit there while they plan this out. Again, it took a while for them to prepare that jutsu.


Frog Call can be used at the drop of a dime. Frog-Song requires build up, but Itachi won't realize the threat till they start singing at which point he has to over-power Sennin Modo Jiriaya's defense and disable to the Toads in the brief instance before the Song takes effect; I find this highly unlikely.



> Your entire argument revolves around Jiraiya being in Sage Mode, and even then it's a major battle that will not be easy for either side.


That's because my entire point is Sennin Modo Jiriaya >= Itachi, I don't think Base-Jiriaya is. 

Whether Itachi stops Sennin Modo or not depends on the conditions of the match and how the match plays out. Here Itachi is kind of fucked though, because the OP made the starting distance so large. Even the location is not good, with tons of Boxes in the way and Itachi being forced to leap from box to box to reach Jiriaya.


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## Bloo (Jun 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because Edos can be defeated just like everyone else and Itachi doesn't want to fail his mission.


That shows shock that Kabuto has it to me. I don't interpret that at all as fear of Sennin Modo in general. Itachi was as calm as ever when about to be sucked into what could be described as a black hole that is stronger than anything Sennin Modo can create. Again, Itachi being scares is so out of character that it's laughable.




> Please don't make my opinion of you diminish by not citing Itachi's advantages and Kabuto's disadvantages. Also this was never about Itachi vs Kabuto. Simply the fact that he considered Sennin Modo a serious threat.


Kabuto's disadvantages? Itachi had an advantage in the fact that he has unlimited chakra, but he can't fight to his full potential because he can't kill Kabuto.



> Itachi doesn't need to bring it up. When Kishi has a character talk about Itachi's lies he could have simply put that scene in the background of a panel to reference that as one of Itachi's lies. He also had a prime opportunity to reference that scene when Kisame died and was thinking back to lies he had been told. And so on; there are literally hundreds of scenario's I could dream up where referencing this scene as a lie would have made contextual sense.


Please explain to me the point of why Kishimoto would need to do that? There's no point in shedding anymore panel time to that dialogue.



> Holding an opinion that Itachi has better "feats" doesn't justify an entirely made up scenario being true.


What makes Itachi so trustworthy for that ONE piece of dialogue?



> Here's What Gottheim had to say


I read it and it just sounded like translators were having trouble translating it. Some, Gottheim included, believed Naruto was discussed at first, and others thought it was entirely Jiraiya. Then translators had trouble figuring how the latter could be possible considering Itachi's feats and then reached the conclusion that Jiraiya's later feats put him above Orochimaru and in the same ballpark as Itachi. They seemed to go through banter that is similar to what we're going through now. Unless I'm missing something?




> Shounensuki also stated the topic was Jiriaya, though I don't have the exact post. Additionally I did a write up on why it makes no sense they were referring to Naruto. Feel free to view that as well:


I'm still not convinced that that dialogue has any reason to be taken seriously and many other translations I've read are very unclear.



> You have one piece of information; Itachi lies. Out of that you've generate an entirely fictional scenario and are using that to disregard an entire statement. How is that fair?


Itachi lies, he is strong enough alone to take out Jiraiya (let alone with Kisame's statement), Itachi has a motive to hype up Jiraiya, and the dialogue made no sense. You, however, have one thing going for you to believe that this has any credibility behind it. Someone said it. Other than that, there is no reason to actually believe a famed liar in something that makes no sense.



> This does not prove that Itachi was talking about only Jiriaya's base abilities.


Unless you really want to assume that Itachi's going to make the leap that Jiraiya knows Sennin Modo despite being very unfamiliar with him. That is a baseless claim and is entirely based on guesses that aren't based on the manga.



> That's not how language works Bloo. It's not like if in a convo you make one extreme hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point, suddenly everything you said in that convo was an exaggeration. We should still take the point of that scene seriously. The point being that Itachi considered Jiriaya >= him.


I understand that. I'm saying it's still an exaggeration regardless. And you have no point. Yes, Itachi said that. Itachi also said that he killed his family for the giggles. Until you provide a reason to actually buy this statement that makes no sense, then it's irrelevant. And even if Itachi did believe that at the time, later in the manga we find that Itachi was mistaken. So, what's the point in arguing this? Whether what Itachi believed, if he was truthful or lying, this dialogue exchange is completely meaningless and that's what I've been trying to get at.




> Dude how am I overcomplicating it. Literally I said that the more "back-up" thing shouldn't be taken seriously, given the language used. Than simply said there isn't proof that Itachi was referring to the exact Akatsuki members your citing, anyway.


I reread your original post here and I got mixed up with some of your other points. Regardless, I still think backup would refer to other Akatsuki members. Who they'd be is irrelevant in my opinion because it wouldn't matter.




> Kisame was not that strong in P1 and Itachi was basically writing him off as useless in that dialog. Jiriaya >= Itachi makes sense.


What proof is there that Kisame made a huge power jump between parts? He had more feats in Part II, but he had no reason to show off in Part II. He only has one set of DB stats so I don't know where you got that.



> So than you agree it was an exaggeration, that shouldn't be taken seriously


Yes, the entire dialogue shouldn't be taken seriously. 



> A subjective opinion based only on the abilities of characters that were shown to readers, is really no reason at all to ignore a point blank statement.


Taking a point-blank generalization from a person who knows hardly anything about the battle tactics of a character and acting as if it's the golden rule of a manga is unwise. This piece of dialogue is completely worthless to analyze ot this level.



> Like I said a brief summon exchange, which by the end of it he was already in Sennin Modo.


A "brief" exchange? It took him two entire chapters to reach Sennin Modo.
Read the rest of the page.
Read the rest of the page.



> Bloo come on, that' was no where even remotely close to 50m. The lower right hand panel shows the distance between Itachi and B:
> Read the rest of the page.


My mistake. It may not be 50 meters, it's still not that significant of a distance.

Kishi considers the length Chidori Eisou only 5m:
Read the rest of the page.

Given that, Itachi didn't even cross 5m when he got behind B.




> When has Itachi casted Amaterasu from 50m. Also Itachi wastes an Amaterasu on a summon, than Jiriaya just pulls out another one. Itachi comes out of that much worse.


Amaterasu appears where the caster is looking. I think it's a far assumption that Itachi has the ability to see Gamabunta from 50 meters away.




> All of them are effective because Fukasaku and Shima can sense the moment Itachi even builds chakra up to his Dojutsu, before he even uses the Jutsu.
> 
> Fukasaku and Shima casually break Jiriaya free of finger Genjutsu. If Jiriaya himself can't casually break free with Senjutsu enhanced Kai.


It's still not helping Jiraiya from not accidentally looking into his eyes. Even then, Itachi is crafty in getting his opponents to glance his eyes. And yes, Fusaku and Shima can break Jiraiya out of finger genjutsu. But, it won't be immediate. It wasn't immediate when Bee was under genjutsu and it took a while for a perfect jinchuuruki to even notice. Jiraiya will perform less than or equal to Bee in that situation. 






> Bloo, re-read what I said
> 
> " With Sennin Modo's durability and regen, Jiriaya would tank any *non *Dojutsu technique Itachi could throw at him"


My bad. You're right there.



> Gai expect Kurunai and Asuma to be able to get the knack of fighting while avoiding eye-contact in the heat of battle.. So it can not be as hard as your making it out to be.


Not really. Gai expected Asume to be competent enough to just be support. He isn't expecting him to take Itachi head on like Jiraiya would be here.



> This not a provable assertion. Just because there is a panel focusing on Jiriaya's face and Itachi's doesn't mean eye-contact. Like-wise Jiriaya had a Toad out to break him free and Itachi didn't have Mangekyo activated.


Those middle panels actually do heavily suggest eye contact.
Read the rest of the page.



> Jiriaya can attack just fine. What he uses to block LOS can be an attack itself; he's also been shown to fight proficiently in smoke screens. Or if he uses KB, both him and the Bushin can attack. Etc...


That's still not necessarily going to be enough to take out Itachi.



> Frog Call can be used at the drop of a dime. Frog-Song requires build up, but Itachi won't realize the threat till they start singing at which point he has to over-power Sennin Modo Jiriaya's defense and disable to the Toads in the brief instance before the Song takes effect; I find this highly unlikely.


What makes you say Itachi, a man who can tell when someone is building up chakra with his sharingan, will not notice while Fusaku and Shima build up chakra? And what makes you think Itachi wouldn't take out either Fusaku or Shima? It wouldn't be too difficult. There are three sets of eyes and Itachi just needs to land genjutsu on one of them.




> That's because my entire point is Sennin Modo Jiriaya >= Itachi, I don't think Base-Jiriaya is.


I respectfully disagree with your opinion.



> Whether Itachi stops Sennin Modo or not depends on the conditions of the match and how the match plays out. Here Itachi is kind of fucked though, because the OP made the starting distance so large. Even the location is not good, with tons of Boxes in the way and Itachi being forced to leap from box to box to reach Jiriaya.


Again, with the amount of time it took for Jiraiya to go into Sennin Modo, I'm sure Itachi will be fine.

While you try to argue why I should take that outdated piece of dialogue seriously and as evidence as to why Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, why should this interrupted statement by Jiraiya not worth mentioning?
Read the rest of the page.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2014)

This has always been a silly debate. Jiraiya stands no chances without summons. Itachi controls summons. If Fukasaku or Shima are under genjutsu for even a second, Jiriaya dies to a kata to the neck. 

If Gambabuta is under control for a second, Jiriaya is rodeo'd off and will free fall for a few hundred feet, making him an easy target for Itachi, as the manga's made it clear that ninja are very vulnerable at that point.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi being (very, very) confident that he could undo the Edo Tensei of a perfect Sage, who was also a genius liar that counteracted Itachi's ability to read and predict people via emotional cues, and who knew 99% of Itachi's techniques... should diminish the interpretation that he was worried about base Jiraiya, who knew none of his techniques, or any form of Jiraiya for that matter.



Itachi also had his mega-legendary-dojutsu-equipped brother helping him out, along with an immortal, undying body.

Unlike in Part 1, where he had a fatigued body and a bitchy version of Kisame for assistance.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2014)

Itachi does to Jiraiya what he did to Orochimaru--twice.

/thread


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)




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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 24, 2014)

What dumbass thinks Itachi is stronger than Hashirama? There's an absurd gap between them.


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## Dr. White (Jun 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> What dumbass thinks Itachi is stronger than Hashirama? There's an absurd gap between them.



Look up before it completely passes you by


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> *What dumbass* thinks Itachi is stronger than Hashirama? There's an absurd gap between them.



If thats your initial reaction after looking @ that picture, then the chances are you probably dumber than the person who  thinks Itachi is stronger than Hashirama.


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## Ersa (Jun 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> What dumbass thinks Itachi is stronger than Hashirama? There's an absurd gap between them.




I think the joke went over your head.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> That shows shock that Kabuto has it to me. I don't interpret that at all as fear of Sennin Modo in general. Itachi was as calm as ever when about to be sucked into what could be described as a black hole that is stronger than anything Sennin Modo can create. Again, Itachi being scares is so out of character that it's laughable.


Where would the shock be coming from tho. Obviously it's ether out of fear or respect (or bot) for the power of Sennin Modo. Itachi is not getting shocked when Kabuto pulls out Suiton Ninjutsu to that extent for example.



> Kabuto's disadvantages? Itachi had an advantage in the fact that he has unlimited chakra, but he can't fight to his full potential because he can't kill Kabuto.


What about the big Sasuke elephant in the room, I.E. the fact that Itachi literally had back up from an extremely powerful EMS user?



> Please explain to me the point of why Kishimoto would need to do that? There's no point in shedding anymore panel time to that dialogue.


If Kishi wrote the scene with his intention being that the scene should be seen as a lie, obviously Kishi needs to clarify it. 



> What makes Itachi so trustworthy for that ONE piece of dialogue?


- The alternative scenario of lying makes no logic sense whatsoever
- The manga hundreds of chapters later still has never even remotely hinted at him lying in that instance, while citing all other instances of his deception
- Itachi really only lied about one thing, this being the Uchiha Massacre/Sasuke



> I read it and it just sounded like translators were having trouble translating it. Some, Gottheim included, believed Naruto was discussed at first, and others thought it was entirely Jiraiya. Then translators had trouble figuring how the latter could be possible considering Itachi's feats and then reached the conclusion that Jiraiya's later feats put him above Orochimaru and in the same ballpark as Itachi. They seemed to go through banter that is similar to what we're going through now. Unless I'm missing something?


Your missing something. Because basically every translators, but Gottheim said it was about Jiriaya. Gottheim was the only one who wasn't sure, but than he literally went on Japanese forums and saw that the Japanese considered it to be referring to Jiriaya as well, so he concluded he was wrong and sided with the opposing side. So basically every translator agrees it refers to Jiriaya (You can add me in their as well, given that I also translated the lines).



> I'm still not convinced that that dialogue has any reason to be taken seriously and many other translations I've read are very unclear.


Whether you take is seriously or not does not change that the topic was Jiriaya.



> Itachi lies, he is strong enough alone to take out Jiraiya (let alone with Kisame's statement), Itachi has a motive to hype up Jiraiya, and the dialogue made no sense. You, however, have one thing going for you to believe that this has any credibility behind it. Someone said it. Other than that, there is no reason to actually believe a famed liar in something that makes no sense.


Let's go through this.

1) Itachi lies, sure, about one specific event in his life. He is not a pathological liar and has told many truths throughout the story

2) Itachi as a motive - actually no he doesn't. Why? Because at another point when Kisame starts talking about capturing the Kyuubi-Jinchuuriki, Itachi simply says there is no rush, because Kyuubi has to be sealed last. Kisame accepts this and they move on w/o issue. So where is the motive, to fabricate this totally made up scenario, when he could have just said there is no rush and Kisame would have been fine. Also why Itachi even needs to offer an excuse to Kisame in the first place makes absolutely no sense to me.

3) P1 Kisame was stated to have a tough time with P1 Kakashi. He would not make a difference in a fight between Sennin Modo Jiriaya and Itachi.



> Unless you really want to assume that Itachi's going to make the leap that Jiraiya knows Sennin Modo despite being very unfamiliar with him. That is a baseless claim and is entirely based on guesses that aren't based on the manga.


Bloo Itachi was aware of Ryuuchidou and it's connection to Sennin Modo. Are you seriously telling me it's unlikely he was aware of Myoubokuzan and it's connection to Sennin Modo? As for Jiriaya specifically having Sennin Modo; dude is called Gama Sennin and Sennin of the Legendary Sennin; does it really take a genius to figure out he has Sennin Modo.



> I understand that. I'm saying it's still an exaggeration regardless. And you have no point. Yes, Itachi said that. Itachi also said that he killed his family for the giggles. Until you provide a reason to actually buy this statement that makes no sense, then it's irrelevan


You say you understand that, but than are basically employing the exact same argument over again. Itachi lied about X, therefore it's assumed that he lies about everything.



> t. And even if Itachi did believe that at the time, later in the manga we find that Itachi was mistaken. So, what's the point in arguing this? Whether what Itachi believed, if he was truthful or lying, this dialogue exchange is completely meaningless and that's what I've been trying to get a


Please show me the point in the manga where Itachi admits he was mistaken.

You simply have decided to place more value on Itachi's feats than Jiriaya's, but your an Itachi-fan, so it goes w/o saying that you value his feats more. Your opinion on feats doesn't invalidate a point blank statement though.



> I reread your original post here and I got mixed up with some of your other points. Regardless, I still think backup would refer to other Akatsuki members. Who they'd be is irrelevant in my opinion because it wouldn't matter.


The text makes it extremely clear that Itachi wasn't referring to anyone in particular and simply giving an exaggerated example to illustrate his point. It's literally no different than when Zetsu says Itachi is invincible after seeing him use Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror. Itachi isn't literally invincible, but the take away shouldn't be that Zetsu was lying. The take away should be that Zetsu utilized hyperbola to illustrate a point; Itachi is really fucking strong. Itachi also used hyperbola to illustrate a point; his chances of beating Jiriaya weren't very good.




> What proof is there that Kisame made a huge power jump between parts? He had more feats in Part II, but he had no reason to show off in Part II. He only has one set of DB stats so I don't know where you got that.


The fact that P1 Kisame would struggle with P1 Kakashi and the fact that Kisame said Jiriaya/Itachi were out of his league:

NJT, 142 page 6 (About Kakashi)

お前が　その人とまともにやり合えば
ただでは済まない・・・
If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy...
*So in other words if Kisame fought then he wouldn't have an easy win since his opponet isn't an weak opponent. 
まともに= seriously
ただでは済まない= wouldn't get off easy.

それに時間をかければ
他の忍が　ここに駆けつけるだろう
Also if it takes time [to finish the fight] other shinobi will be on the way.

Shonensuki (About Jiriaya/Itachi):
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"

Do you seriously think the Kisame who fought B and Gai would struggle with P1 Kakashi and Jiriaya/Itachi are much stronger than him. I also have no clue how it would even be possible that Kisame's strength remained the same after he absorbed all that Bijuu/Jin chakra.



> Yes, the entire dialogue shouldn't be taken seriously.


So none of the hype statements about Itachi should be taken seriously ether? Because most, if not all of them also include hyperbolic shit in them. It's just how Kishi has characters hype each other.



> Taking a point-blank generalization from a person who knows hardly anything about the battle tactics of a character and acting as if it's the golden rule of a manga is unwise. This piece of dialogue is completely worthless to analyze ot this level.


Bloo come on this is ridiculous and you know it. Yes I am going to take Itachi's opinion about how he'd perform seriously, because he knows himself better than we do. As for what he knows about Jiriaya; how do you know he knows nothing. Was there a panel or something I missed.



> A "brief" exchange? It took him two entire chapters to reach Sennin Modo.


He was in Sennin Modo before Ch 377. Re-read that part of the story.



> My mistake. It may not be 50 meters, it's still not that significant of a distance.


Than once again I ask for a feat from Itachi where he's crossed 50m, as quickly as you say he can.



> Amaterasu appears where the caster is looking. I think it's a far assumption that Itachi has the ability to see Gamabunta from 50 meters away.


I think it's a fair assumption that many of the other Toads have Sound based Jutsu that would fuck Itachi's day up, but you don't see me bringing that up in a "feats" only discussion. If you want to limit us to discussing only "feats", than you need to produce a "feat" that shows Amaterasu being used at that range or at least a statement that says Amaterasu can be used at any range. And all we got as far as that's concerned is Amaterasu not being used at anywhere near that range feat wise and Amaterasu being called a short-range Jutsu in the DB.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2014)

> It's still not helping Jiraiya from not accidentally looking into his eyes. Even then, Itachi is crafty in getting his opponents to glance his eyes.


If Fusaku and Shima tell Jiriaya when Itachi is preparing to use a Dojutsu technique why is Jiriaya accidentally looking into Itachi's eyes still. That is way to much of a beneficial assumption for Itachi when literally all it takes is the following.

Pa, "He's preparing to use a Dojutsu"
Ma, "Dust Cloud"

That's it and there is no danger of even accidental eye contact.



> And yes, Fusaku and Shima can break Jiraiya out of finger genjutsu. But, it won't be immediate. It wasn't immediate when Bee was under genjutsu and it took a while for a perfect jinchuuruki to even notice. Jiraiya will perform less than or equal to Bee in that situation.


It was in time for B to counter Itachi's assault, and B does not have Ma/Pa (and potentially other summons to protect him). Jiriaya gets hit Ma breaks him out, at the same time Pa is using a Senpo Technique to distract Itachi (or defend them) & that's assuming Ken, Hiro, Bunta, etc... aren't out on the field as well.



> Not really. Gai expected Asume to be competent enough to just be support. He isn't expecting him to take Itachi head on like Jiraiya would be here.


Yeah he was expecting Asuma to be competent enough to be support. Now let's compare Asuma to Sennin Modo Jiriaya lol. If Asuma can act as support, Sennin Modo Jiriaya does this no diff.



> Those middle panels actually do heavily suggest eye contact.


There are tons of panels where Gai looks like he's staring right at Itachi, but we know he was avoiding eye-contact. Same thing with Naruto. So again those panels tell us nothing.



> That's still not necessarily going to be enough to take out Itachi.


That's not how a I believe Jiriaya would take out Itachi; that's how I believe Jiriaya will deal with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.



> What makes you say Itachi, a man who can tell when someone is building up chakra with his sharingan, will not notice while Fusaku and Shima build up chakra? And what makes you think Itachi wouldn't take out either Fusaku or Shima?.


He notice they were building up chakra, but he wouldn't know what for or the threat it posed



> It wouldn't be too difficult. There are three sets of eyes and Itachi just needs to land genjutsu on one of them


Ma and Pa could literally close their eyes and still fight due to Sennin Modo Sensing, so that isn't happening.



> I respectfully disagree with your opinion.


I know you disagree, but you seemed to be suggesting I was saying Base-Jiriaya > Itachi, which I never was.



> Again, with the amount of time it took for Jiraiya to go into Sennin Modo, I'm sure Itachi will be fine.


How is he stopping Sennin Modo. You just taking it for granted w/o offering any evidence to the contrary. How is that fair?



> While you try to argue why I should take that outdated piece of dialogue seriously and as evidence as to why Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, why should this interrupted statement by Jiraiya not worth mentioning?


Because the statement is about Naruto going off on his own to fight Itachi, and of course he'd be stomped


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2014)

Lol you guys took too long. I wasn't going to barge in, but it pains me to see you debate to no avail.

Irrefutable proof that Itachi was bullshitting  : 

Itachi defeated Orochimaru in a direct confrontation with absolutely no difficulty. Same Orochimaru who was stronger  than Jiraiya(granted Orochimaru himself made the claim), who was portrayed to be Jiraiya's equal, and has the exact same reputation as Jiraiya ; Legendary Sannin. The reputation Kisame was talking about. when he said Itachi's and his reputation meant nothing infront of "Legendary Sannin" poor bastard didn't know Itachi 2 paneled Orochimaru.

Why would Itachi think he could 1 panel Orochimaru, but get intimidated by someone else who has the exact same reputation ? Why would Itachi act so relaxed to the extend that he turns his back on him, around someone who he thinks can kill both him and Kisame ? We all know the answer.


@ turrin

If Itachi's words and facial expression is an indicator of his fear of SM, then what is your take on these reactions ? Pay attention to Jiraiya's words and facial expression  :

who was portrayed to be Jiraiya's equal, and has the exact same reputation as Jiraiya ; Legendary Sannin
who was portrayed to be Jiraiya's equal, and has the exact same reputation as Jiraiya ; Legendary Sannin
who was portrayed to be Jiraiya's equal, and has the exact same reputation as Jiraiya ; Legendary Sannin
who was portrayed to be Jiraiya's equal, and has the exact same reputation as Jiraiya ; Legendary Sannin


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> @ turrin
> 
> If Itachi's words and facial expression is an indicator of his fear of SM, then what is your take on these reactions ? Pay attention to Jiraiya's words and facial expression  :
> 
> ...


That he fears and respects Itachi's capabilities 

See the thing is only Itachi-fans are arguing the two are completely different levels. I on the other hand have absolutely not problem admitting Jiriaya has fear &/or respect for Itachi's capabilities; as that fits with the statement, both respecting/fearing each others capabilities.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> That he fears and respects Itachi's capabilities
> 
> See the thing is only Itachi-fans are arguing the two are completely different levels. I on the other hand have absolutely not problem admitting Jiriaya has fear &/or respect for Itachi's capabilities; as that fits with the statement, both respecting/fearing each others capabilities.



But Itachi has never shown fear towards Jiraiya. On the contrary, he acted pretty carefree around him. He always semed in control. He wasn't even worried when Jiraiya tried to ambush him and Kisame when they were preoccupied with Sasuke/Naruto.

You are trying to justify that stament through something that happened like 400 chapters later which doesn't even have Jiraiya's name in it.

Did it occur to you that maybe Ryuchidou has more hype going for it than Myobokuzan ? Maybe Itachi understood the implcations of Kabuto having snake sage mode that'd allow him to pose problems for dojutsu ? 

To be frank SM(toad sage mode as we knew it) was pretty standart @ that point in the manga. Naruto whipped it out here and there and no one has shown any extra ordinary reactions to it. Not even weaker shinobi.

From the authors point of view ;  Naruto saying that he had grown since he and Nagato last met(implying KCM > SM) and neither Itachi nor Nagato crapping their pants about it, and Itachi's reaction to Kabuto's sage mode all indicate that Kishimoto wanted us to think that Kabuto's sage mode was something special. He wasn't trying to emphasize how great SM was, he was trying to emphasize how great Kabuto was with his Snake sage mode.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But Itachi has never shown fear towards Jiraiya. On the contrary, he acted pretty carefree around him. He always semed in control. He wasn't even worried when Jiraiya tried to ambush him and Kisame when they were preoccupied with Sasuke/Naruto.


Sure if we ignore the prior statement where Itachi does show fear/respect towards Jiriaya.



> You are trying to justify that stament through something that happened like 400 chapters later which doesn't even have Jiraiya's name in it.


We found out about Itachi being a liar about certain things hundreds of chapters later, yet it is used to justify the statement by Itachi-fans. So please do not bother me such blatant double standards. 



> Did it occur to you that maybe Ryuchidou has more hype going for it than Myobokuzan ? Maybe Itachi understood the implcations of Kabuto having snake sage mode that'd allow him to pose problems for dojutsu ?


No it didn't occur to me, because in that very same chapter it was referenced as a place of similar stature to Myobukuzan. Additionally Kishi never once indicated that Snake-SM > Toad-SM. 

All SM pose problems for Dojutsu. If anything Toads are worse in this regard because the Toads seem to specialize in Sound Based Techniques, while Kabuto specifically just learned a one sound based technique while absorbing another through his blood transfusions. With Snakes having no particular connection to sound-based jutsu.



> To be frank SM(toad sage mode as we knew it) was pretty standart @ that point in the manga. Naruto whipped it out here and there and no one has shown any extra ordinary reactions to it. Not even weaker shinobi.


What are you talking about. All of Konoha was like dude has Toad-SM well fuck we're useless compared to him.



> From the authors point of view ; Naruto saying that he had grown since he and Nagato last met(implying KCM > SM) and neither Itachi nor Nagato crapping their pants about it,


Wait Itachi didn't even know Naruto had Toad SM.




> and Itachi's reaction to Kabuto's sage mode all indicate that Kishimoto wanted us to think that Kabuto's sage mode was something special.


Oh please. Author has given absolutely no reason to believe Snake-SM > Toad-SM. And it's not like Itachi even knew what level of mastery Kabuto had over Sennin Modo. 



> He wasn't trying to emphasize how great SM was, he was trying to emphasize how great Kabuto was with his Snake sage mode.


Yet Itachi had absolutely no clue at that point how good Kabuto was with his Sennin Modo. So that make no sense.

It's very obvious that your jumping through hoopes to justify this to yourself


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## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2014)




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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sure if we ignore the prior statement where Itachi does show fear/respect towards Jiriaya.


Respect ? Yeah. Fear ? No.



> We found out about Itachi being a liar about certain things hundreds of chapters later, yet it is used to justify the statement by Itachi-fans. So please do not bother me such blatant double standards.


Us finding out about it doesn't mean Kishimoto didn't have it in his mind up until that point.
There are subtle hints that Itachi was actually not what he seemed to be.



> No it didn't occur to me, because in that very same chapter it was referenced as a place of similar stature to Myobukuzan. Additionally Kishi never once indicated that Snake-SM > Toad-SM.


Similar nature doesn't indicate equality. 
Also I explained why Kishi indicated that Snake SM > Toad SM.



> All SM pose problems for Dojutsu. If anything Toads are worse in this regard because the Toads seem to specialize in Sound Based Techniques, while Kabuto specifically just learned a one sound based technique while absorbing another through his blood transfusions. With Snakes having no particular connection to sound-based jutsu.


Actually, no. Kabuto has snake cornea and snake like sensing abilities. He can fight "blind" and he is effectively immune to genjutsu. That is a major benefit for fighting against Dojutsu users.
White Rage also hard counters dojutsu.

Sound based techniques work on anything else, as far as we know they aren't exclusively dojutsu users weakness. 



> What are you talking about. All of Konoha was like dude has Toad-SM well fuck we're useless compared to him.


By all of Konoha you mean jounin level nins. 



> Wait Itachi didn't even know Naruto had Toad SM.


Didn't need to. If SM is enough to scare Itachi, mastering Kyuubi would make him shit his pants.
Unless of course, Itachi thinks SM is stronger than KCM.



> Oh please. Author has given absolutely no reason to believe Snake-SM > Toad-SM. And it's not like Itachi even knew what level of mastery Kabuto had over Sennin Modo.


The hype around Kabuto's Snake SM was greater than Toad SM.
Especially when you consider that Snake SM was introduced way after toad SM and Kishimoto still put an effort to hype it. If it was just like toad SM, it wouldn't require any hype.



> Yet Itachi had absolutely no clue at that point how good Kabuto was with his Sennin Modo. So that make no sense.


He didn't need to. If he knows about Ryuchidou, then he probably has an idea what kind of power Ryuchidou SM would bestow  upon its user.



> It's very obvious that your jumping through hoopes to justify this to yourself


The irony.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Respect ? Yeah. Fear ? No.


Respect, Fear, whatever you want to call it, it's the same.



> Us finding out about it doesn't mean Kishimoto didn't have it in his mind up until that point.
> There are subtle hints that Itachi was actually not what he seemed to be.


There are no hints that Itachi lied about Jiriaya. 



> Similar nature doesn't indicate equality.
> Also I explained why Kishi indicated that Snake SM > Toad SM.


Where 



> Actually, no. Kabuto has snake cornea and snake like sensing abilities. He can fight "blind" and he is effectively immune to genjutsu. That is a major benefit for fighting against Dojutsu users.


Let's be real here Grimjow. The Snake cornea are nothing more than a gimmick to stress Kabuto being a snake man. Other Sennin Modo users can close their eyes, block LOS, or both, obtaining the same effect  We've literally seen the Toad-SM users fight w/o any LOS.



> White Rage also hard counters dojutsu.


Sound-Based Techniques in general are a good counter to Dojutsu users. Sound-Based Techniques just happen to be Fusaku and Shima's forte. Probably other Toads have sound-based jutsu as well.



> Sound based techniques work on anything else, as far as we know they aren't exclusively dojutsu users weakness.


And Haguki doesn't work on anything else?



> By all of Konoha you mean jounin level nins.


I mean multiple Jonin-level Ninja. But now your moving the goal post anyway. From no one has shown extraordinary reactions; to it has to be X/Y/Z character who show said reactions.



> Didn't need to. If SM is enough to scare Itachi, mastering Kyuubi would make him shit his pants.
> Unless of course, Itachi thinks SM is stronger than KCM.


Or he actually wanted to be defeated in that instance. While in the Kabuto instance he wanted to succeed in his mission and protect Sasuke. 



> The hype around Kabuto's Snake SM was greater than Toad SM.


No it wasn't. Itachi literally refers to it as Sennin Modo. Not Snake Sennin Modo; nor at any time does he make a distinction that it because Kabuto is using Snake-Sennin Modo that he is a larger threat. Nether does the author for that matter or any other character in the manga-cannon.



> Especially when you consider that Snake SM was introduced way after toad SM and Kishimoto still put an effort to hype it. If it was just like toad SM, it wouldn't require any hype.


Or the author was just hyping Sennin Modo again; unless your going to tell me the author never hypes a jutsu twice.



> He didn't need to. If he knows about Ryuchidou, then he probably has an idea what kind of power Ryuchidou SM would bestow upon its user.


And at no point is this distinction made so the point is moot.



> The irony.


Oh I agree, there is a-lot of Irony here, but it's not from me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Respect, Fear, whatever you want to call it, it's the same.


Respect and fear aren't the same. Not even remotely close.



> There are no hints that Itachi lied about Jiriaya.


No. However, there is evidence suggesting that he might have lied about him.



> Where


Manga did that for me




> Let's be real here Grimjow. The Snake cornea are nothing more than a gimmick to stress Kabuto being a snake man.


Snakes have infrared vision, can sense through vibrations and smell.
They are animals don't rely on the conventional methods of visual sensing.
So no, they had a pretty decent significance.



> Other Sennin Modo users can close their eyes, block LOS, or both, obtaining the same effect  We've literally seen the Toad-SM users fight w/o any LOS.


Once you can show me another sennin modo user who can fight eyes closed with the same efficency, I'll concede the point. 



> Sound-Based Techniques in general are a good counter to Dojutsu users. Sound-Based Techniques just happen to be Fusaku and Shima's forte. Probably other Toads have sound-based jutsu as well.


Sound based jutsu work on anyone who isn't deaf. 



> And Haguki doesn't work on anything else?


It sure does, but impairing vision would hurt people who rely on their eyes the most.




> I mean multiple Jonin-level Ninja. But now your moving the goal post anyway. From no one has shown extraordinary reactions; to it has to be X/Y/Z character who show said reactions.


I am not movin away from anything. A couple of jounins paying respect to SM with no extra ordinary reactions like "OMFG SENNIN MODO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!" isn't equal to what Kabuto's SM got as a reaction from Itachi.




> Or he actually wanted to be defeated in that instance. While in the Kabuto instance he wanted to succeed in his mission and protect Sasuke.


Irrelevant. 
He has shown mild surprise @ Naruto's progress. That was it.
His reaction to Kabuto's SM was something else. Its as if Itachi didn't expect anyone to have access to such power.



> No it wasn't. Itachi literally refers to it as Sennin Modo. Not Snake Sennin Modo; nor at any time does he make a distinction that it because Kabuto is using Snake-Sennin Modo that he is a larger threat. Nether does the author for that matter or any other character in the manga-cannon.


He has shown the most intense reaction after "Ryuchidou" was mentioned, so I gotta disagree.



> Or the author was just hyping Sennin Modo again; unless your going to tell me the author never hypes a jutsu twice.


Even 200 chapters after the jutsu was introduced and spammed like part 1 kawarimi ? No he doesn't.



> And at no point is this distinction made so the point is moot.


The distinction was made the moment Kabuto mentioned it was snake sage mode which came from Ryuchidou.



> Oh I agree, there is a-lot of Irony here, but it's not from me.


No no its you


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## ARGUS (Jun 25, 2014)

I think through feats and portrayal,  Itachi wins this, 


the black zetsu praises itachi here, the same guy who took down JJ madara and created the whole shinobi story

Shikaku believed that itachis visual prowess was strong enough to manipulate armies

These guys knew eveery uchiha yet they still states that ONLY itachi had  the power to do so

now even Tobi admits inferiority to itachi

as 14 yeaar old itachi threatens the same man, who started the 4th war 

itachi also solos the leader of the akatsuki, the same man who was revered as a god, and the same man who foddered jiraiya

the man who was in control of the legendary madara uchiha praises itachi 

itachi also makes the fourth hokage: yellow flash who jiraiya praised, cry, clearly itachi > all

clearly we know that kishi is tryin to discard the part 1 statement, as i have shown u several manga scans which explain why itachi is possibly the strongest shinobi in the NV


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Respect and fear aren't the same. Not even remotely close.


They served the same purpose for my discussion with Bloo



> No. However, there is evidence suggesting that he might have lied about him.


Nope



> Manga did that for me


Nope



> Snakes have infrared vision, can sense through vibrations and smell.
> They are animals don't rely on the conventional methods of visual sensing.
> So no, they had a pretty decent significance.


Sennin Modo sensing was the reason Kabuto could fight blind. The same reason Toad-SM users have also been able to do it.



> Once you can show me another sennin modo user who can fight eyes closed with the same efficency, I'll concede the point.


Jiriaya and Naruto have fought perfectly fine with LOS blocked



> Sound based jutsu work on anyone who isn't deaf.


Doesn't change the fact that they work well against Dojutsu users. 



> It sure does, but impairing vision would hurt people who rely on their eyes the most.


So Shima's Dust-Cloud then



> I am not movin away from anything. A couple of jounins paying respect to SM with no extra ordinary reactions like "OMFG SENNIN MODO IT IS IMPOSSIBLE !!!!!" isn't equal to what Kabuto's SM got as a reaction from Itachi.


We're totally useless compared to a sage isn't an extraordinary reaction lol. Stop lying to yourself.



> rrelevant.
> He has shown mild surprise @ Naruto's progress. That was it.
> His reaction to Kabuto's SM was something else. Its as if Itachi didn't expect anyone to have access to such power.


So are you arguing that any level of Snake-Sennin Modo > Kyuubi's powers lol. Again stop lying to yourself.

His difference in reaction was because he was actually worried about being defeated, while he wanted to be defeated by Naruto.



> He has shown the most intense reaction after "Ryuchidou" was mentioned, so I gotta disagree.


Because Ryuuchidou was the tip off that Kabuto had Sennin Modo. Itachi even mentions later that this was his suspicion when Kabuto mentioned Ryuuchidou and guess what he only mentions Senni Modo, not Snake-Sennin Modo.



> Even 200 chapters after the jutsu was introduced and spammed like part 1 kawarimi ? No he doesn't.


Except he was hyping Toad SM in other instances during the war.



> The distinction was made the moment Kabuto mentioned it was snake sage mode which came from Ryuchidou.


Kabuto never said it was Snake-Sage Modo. Your making that up.

Probably not going to bother beyond this point, as I feel i'm just repeating myself now.


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## Rain (Jun 25, 2014)

tfw its 2014 and some people still think Jiraiya > Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> They served the same purpose for my discussion with Bloo


They won't do the same here, as respect and fear are nothing alike. You don't fear everyone you respect and you don't respect everyone you fear.



> Nope


Yep. Want me to go through them 1 by 1 ? 



> Sennin Modo sensing was the reason Kabuto could fight blind. The same reason Toad-SM users have also been able to do it.


More like Sennin Modo Sensing coupled with snake sensing was the reason why he could do that. Even if Kabuto's eyes were covered, he had means to see through heat and vibrations and smell. His base sensing was leaps and bounds over Naruto's and Jiraiya's, why would their sensing potential be the same in SM  ?



> Jiriaya and Naruto have fought perfectly fine with LOS blocked


Fighting with LOS blocked for a brief moment isn't the same with fighting blind. Not even close. Itachi did the same on more than one occasion and he doesn't even have sensory abilities.



> Doesn't change the fact that they work well against Dojutsu users.


I never claimed otherwise, I am just against the notion that sound jutsu are the specific weakness of Dojutsu users. Which is not the case.



> So Shima's Dust-Cloud then


It won't have the same effect, as white rage forces them to close their eyes, refraining them from using any kind of eye related technique. Dust cloud just blocks the LOS and it is alot easier to get around.



> We're totally useless compared to a sage isn't an extraordinary reaction lol. Stop lying to yourself.


Reaction came from jounins, fodders and shit. And none of them were any extreme reactions. 



> So are you arguing that any level of Snake-Sennin Modo > Kyuubi's powers lol. Again stop lying to yourself.


As far as we know, you are either a sage or not. There isn't a big difference between the powers of imperfect sage and a perfect sage anyways, and Itachi probably assumed the worst case scenario. He knew about Ryuchidou and SM, so he probably understood the implications of Kabuto having it, in otherwords he understood it wouldn't be easy to genjutsu control him.

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason believe that SM alone made Itachi worried, when we know a superior power up, KCM didn't.



> His difference in reaction was because he was actually worried about being defeated, while he wanted to be defeated by Naruto.


Thats how* you interpret* the difference in reaction.
My interpretation is that Itachi's reaction against Ryuchidou was circumstance specific.



> Because Ryuuchidou was the tip off that Kabuto had Sennin Modo. Itachi even mentions later that this was his suspicion when Kabuto mentioned Ryuuchidou and guess what he only mentions Senni Modo, not Snake-Sennin Modo.


Why would he mention "snake sennin" modo ? Contextually, everyone knew what he was talking about. They were talking about SM that was acquired in Ryuchiodu. SM that was taught by the snake sage. 



> Except he was hyping Toad SM in other instances during the war.


No he wasn't ? 



> Kabuto never said it was Snake-Sage Modo. Your making that up.


He didn't need to. Just like when you don't need to refer to Naruto's sm as Toad SM, but we know it is toad SM. 
If it was the same thing, they'd originate from the same place.



> i'm just repeating myself now.



I noticed.


edit : 



Rain said:


> tfw its 2014 and some people still think Jiraiya > Itachi



mfw that happens :


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## Akitō (Jun 25, 2014)

Damn, it's 2014 and people still doubt that Itachi = Jiraiya. Do you people need the author to say it outright or something? Oh, wait.


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## Bloo (Jun 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> See the thing is only Itachi-fans are arguing the two are completely different levels.


You're a fan of Jiraiya and you're arguing Jiraiya is stronger. I'm an Itachi fan and I'm arguing Itachi is stronger. The fan argument has beyond no credibility in this context.


> I on the other hand have absolutely not problem admitting Jiriaya has fear &/or respect for Itachi's capabilities; as that fits with the statement, both respecting/fearing each others capabilities.


Itachi doesn't fear anyone, honestly. That's out of character and rather baseless. I would say he respects Jiraiya. Itachi practically respects everyone but Orochimaru. And, I never once stated that Jiraiya is afraid of Itachi.

Regarding your other responses to my post: let's agree to disagree. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. I will never begin to understand why you think that that dialogue exchange is the end-all, be-all proof that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, when in hindsight, it doesn't matter. And we shouldn't need Kishimoto to explicitly state it when the manga clear at this point that Itachi was either lying or just wrong about it. Especially given Itachi has lied his entire life since the massacre (please don't say he's only lied once, that is entirely untrue).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Damn, it's 2014 and people still doubt that Itachi = Jiraiya. Do you people need the author to say it outright or something? Oh, wait.



A lot happened during these 8 years. You probably need to catch up 

But hey man, if you wanna cling to the past, no one can blame you :ignoramus


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## Akitō (Jun 25, 2014)

It was a joke. I was trying to show how stupid the "It's 2014 and people still believe _______ " sounds when you use it to say something that's controversial.


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2014)

Bloo said:


> You're a fan of Jiraiya and you're arguing Jiraiya is stronger. I'm an Itachi fan and I'm arguing Itachi is stronger. The fan argument has beyond no credibility in this context.


Bloo you don't understand my point then. I'm saying Jiriaya in his ascended mode is > or equal to Itachi. Overall they are in the same "league". Simply put if Itachi stops Sennin Modo he kills Jiriaya; if he doesn't he ether draws with Sennin Modo Jiriaya or Sennin Modo Jiraiya kills him high difficulty (potentially sustaining injuries). They are in the same "league" because how Kishi decided to play out (& set up) the match will dictate who wins or if they both kill/heavily injure each other. 

This contrasts Itachi-fans who are saying Itachi is a whole other level beyond Jiriaya and Jiriaya stands absolutely no chance against him. The difference in the nature of these claims couldn't be clearer.

Also by the by while i'm a fan of Jiriaya, he's not my de-facto favorite character; that would be Hanzo. And strength has absolutely nothing to do with how a I pick my favorite characters as one of my favorite characters is Konan and I have no qualms saying Itachi is a whole other "level" above her.



> tachi doesn't fear anyone, honestly. That's out of character and rather baseless. I would say he respects Jiraiya. Itachi practically respects everyone but Orochimaru. And, I never once stated that Jiraiya is afraid of Itachi.


Whatever emotion you want to call it, the way he acted at the idea of Sennin Modo makes no sense if he's an entire level beyond a Sennin Modo user.



> Regarding your other responses to my post: let's agree to disagree. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. I will never begin to understand why you think that that dialogue exchange is the end-all, be-all proof that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, when in hindsight, it doesn't matter. And we shouldn't need Kishimoto to explicitly state it when the manga clear at this point that Itachi was either lying or just wrong about it. Especially given Itachi has lied his entire life since the massacre (please don't say he's only lied once, that is entirely untrue).


I don't think it's an end all by all. If Itachi showed shit that was clearly a whole level beyond Jiriaya i'd disregard the statement or treat it the way I do Prime-Hiruzen statements, where it's like maybe it's true or maybe it isn't, but for now Hashirama has everything in his favor but hype. However I have no once seen Itachi exhibit any accomplishments that put him a whole level beyond Jiriaya and really the only ones who seem to come away with this interpretation are Itachi-fans


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## Fox91 (Jun 25, 2014)

Lol, how is this thread still debatable?


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## Dr. White (Jun 25, 2014)

Turrin. Itachi is > Jiraiya man. Like it couldn't be more obvious. I'll give you that if Naruto ended before we found out about Itachi, and we were to take his performance as if he were actually trying to kill Hebi Sasuke, then I'd agree with the notion that Itachi beats J-Man before SM, and J-Man high diffs (with the possibility of losing) most often. 

But then we found out Itachi wasn't trying to kill sasuke, and then we saw what a focused, determined Itachi with no reason to hold back; and his feats then made up for him always holding back (and for his accumalted health problems overtime.). 

Sick Itachi can move at Edo speeds, and use a good amount of MS though, so even in his weakest incanation he beats Jiraiaya's best, which is saying something.

Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi > Jiraiya. 

In the words of the well known poet Tupac Shakur
"That's just the way it is, things will never be the same."


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## Turrin (Jun 26, 2014)

Dr. White. Sennin Modo Jiraiya is > Itachi. Like it couldn't be more obvious. I'll give you that if Nwe found out about Itachi specifically lying about Jiriaya,, then I'd agree with the notion that Itachi beats J-Man.

Sennin Modo Jiriaya, can move at Sennin Modo speeds, and use a good amount of Senjutsu techniques though, so even than he beats Itachi at his best, which is saying something.

Sennin Modo Jiraiya > Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi . 

In the words of the well known poet Tupac Shakur
"That's just the way it is, things will never be the same." 

See how that works 

Basically your post holds not content other than you preferring Itachi over Jiriaya. I think it should be obvious that we are not going to ever see eye to eye on this issue. Well actually that's not entirely true, if Itachi later got some gang busters feats or the Jiriaya statement was actually revealed to be a lie, than I might actually change my mind. Literally nothing will change your mind though


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## Bloo (Jun 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'll give you that if Nwe found out about Itachi specifically lying about Jiriaya.


The fact that that statement is what your entire argument seems to revolve around is pretty unconvincing. Especially when it has no value. It's like saying Byakugan is stronger than Sharingan because Kakashi said it in Part I and Kishimoto never went back and said that Kakashi didn't know what he was talking about.



Turrin said:


> Bloo you don't understand my point then. I'm saying Jiriaya in his ascended mode is > or equal to Itachi. Overall they are in the same "league". Simply put if Itachi stops Sennin Modo he kills Jiriaya; if he doesn't he ether draws with Sennin Modo Jiriaya or Sennin Modo Jiraiya kills him high difficulty (potentially sustaining injuries). They are in the same "league" because how Kishi decided to play out (& set up) the match will dictate who wins or if they both kill/heavily injure each other.


My opinion is that Jiraiya is strong enough that he could defeat Itachi if the odds were in his favor. But, I do think Itachi will win more often than not. But, I do see them as being in comparable leagues.


> Also by the by while i'm a fan of Jiriaya, he's not my de-facto favorite character; that would be Hanzo. And strength has absolutely nothing to do with how a I pick my favorite characters as one of my favorite characters is Konan and I have no qualms saying Itachi is a whole other "level" above her.


I think we've had enough interaction that you should know that Itachi is my favorite because of his sacrifice and struggle, not his strength.


> Whatever emotion you want to call it, the way he acted at the idea of Sennin Modo makes no sense if he's an entire level beyond a Sennin Modo user.


He just seemed shocked that Kabuto had it. I don't see how that panel makes you think he was fearful.


> I don't think it's an end all by all. If Itachi showed shit that was clearly a whole level beyond Jiriaya i'd disregard the statement or treat it the way I do Prime-Hiruzen statements, where it's like maybe it's true or maybe it isn't, but for now Hashirama has everything in his favor but hype. However I have no once seen Itachi exhibit any accomplishments that put him a whole level beyond Jiriaya and really the only ones who seem to come away with this interpretation are Itachi-fans


Well the quote states that Jiraiya is greater than Itachi and Kisame and Itachi (and Kisame) has/have most definitely shown that that is a load of shit.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

I don't see how anyone can even try making the argument that SM Jiraiya can defeat Edo Itachi. With a favorable location he might be able to take sick Itachi through guerilla warfare but that kind of tactic will amount to nothing against a zombie who can regenerate chakra. In a straight up brawl, SM Jiraiya gets mowed down by clones, Amaterasu and Susanoo.

And I give Jiraiya a shit ton of credit.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm not even joking when I assert that Sage Jiraiya is complete fodder to Edo Itachi.
When it comes to tiers, they're simply leagues apart. 

It's always the same people who try to downplay Itachi when it's completely evident that - by feats and portrayal - he's superior to Jiraiya in the author's eyes. We take this archaic statement from P1 and use it as some kind of argument, even though Itachi had clear reasons to leave that fight with Kisame. 

Fucking ridiculous...


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

I'd disagree with the notion that SM Jiraiya is fodder to Edo Itachi, he wouldn't win but he could put up a fight.

People like Tsunade, Gaara and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei amount to fodder to Edo Itachi I'd say. Personally I'd peg SM Jiraiya as a notch above them even with the Sannin equality hype.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I'm not even joking when I assert that Sage Jiraiya is complete fodder to Edo Itachi.
> When it comes to tiers, they're simply leagues apart.



What kind of tier list do you have? 

Open my tier list. If Jiraiya were to begin in Sage Mode, I would bump him up to the bottom of High Tier with Obito, Kakashi, and Gai. Itachi remains at the top, but it's still the same tier.

Itachi, in any incarnation, isn't "leagues" beyond J-man. Nor is Minato, Pain, B, or anyone else in that tier. The Top Tiers are; people that can stomp the five Kage.


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## Rain (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> It was a joke. I was trying to show how stupid the "It's 2014 and people still believe _______ " sounds when you use it to say something that's controversial.



This matchup should've stopped being controversial the moment Obito told us the story of Itachi Uchiha. 

Some people are refusing to accept it either because of their sheer hatred for a certain fictional character or just terrible understanding of the manga.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2014)

People should understand that the author can deviate from his initial idea in the long run. Most manga run so long that it is impossible to plan everything ahead. Its not a novel with every single detail planned from the start. It is an ongoing writing process for many years, 15 in Naruto's case.

Even If Kishimoto had the vague idea that Itachi & Jiraiya were shinobi on the same level who posed significant threats to each other, that doesn't exactly mean they were equally powerful. And to be frank, Kishimoto never pursued the idea any further. Never tried to establish it with further display or statements, and as we learned more about both characters, the statement became less reliable.

I think you can't dismiss the fact that the reason why the validity of that statement is questioned by so many is that it really doesn't feel reliable when you consider everything you know about Itachi. Its not just about fandom wars. Its not just "Itachi fans" wanting to see their favorite character win. I am honestly telling that I have difficulty seeing Itachi & Jiraiya as equals both in terms of skillset/power and in terms of relevance, importance and portrayal. 
I wouldn't mind Jiraiya being on Itachi's level, I really don't because I like Jiraiya. But putting him out there as Itachi's equal is really being unfair to Itachi and makes him seem alot less important and weak than he is supposed to. That is my only problem. I wish Kishimoto had done a better job @ developing Jiraiya.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What kind of tier list do you have?
> 
> Open my tier list. If Jiraiya were to begin in Sage Mode, I would bump him up to the bottom of High Tier with Obito, Kakashi, and Gai. Itachi remains at the top, but it's still the same tier.
> 
> Itachi, in any incarnation, isn't "leagues" beyond J-man. Nor is Minato, Pain, B, or anyone else in that tier. The Top Tiers are; people that can stomp the five Kage.



Here's my list of the most powerful to Sage Jiraiya's tier, Rocky...
Just so you have an idea


*Spoiler*: __ 




*S+*
Current Kaguya
Hagoromo/Shinju Madara
Juubi (complete)
Rinnegan Madara (both eyes and no Juubi)
Hamura (assuming he's weaker than his brother)
JJ Obito
Juubi (incomplete)
*S*
Current Naruto
Current Sasuke
Sage Hashirama
EMS Madara w/ 100% Kyuubi
One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara
Edo Hashirama
Edo Madara
Ashura
Indra
Blind Madara (Sage Mode)
Base Hashirama
EMS Madara
Current Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
*A+*
Sage Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei
Current Obito (dual Mangekyou)
Prime Nagato/Rinnegan Obito
Shimon Gai
BSM Naruto
EMS Sasuke (PS)
Edo Nagato
Edo Itachi/Edo Minato
BM Naruto
EMS Sasuke (no PS)
*A*
Healthy Itachi/Living Minato/Shisui
Prime Hiruzen (hype and portrayal)
Danzou w/ Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami
MS Obito
100% Kyuubi/Tobirama
50% Kyuubi
Sage Kabuto
KCM Naruto (full power)
Pein Rikudou/Sick Itachi
Killer B
Current Yamato (Guruguru)
*A-*
Kisame (Gyuuki's chakra)
Edo Hiruzen
Danzou w/ Izanagi
Muu
MS Sasuke
Sage Naruto (current)
Kyoumon Gai/MS Kakashi/Sage Jiraiya
Kisame/Oonoki
Gyuuki/Sandaime Raikage
Trollkage
Current Orochimaru
Byakugou Tsunade/Ei
Pein-Arc Sage Naruto




- Everyone in *S+* and *S* are so far beyond Sage Jiraiya that it isn't worth discussing.
- Sage Jiraiya is fodder before anyone in *A+* that you see.
- Anyone you see in *A* can beat Sage Jiraiya with low - moderate difficulty.
- Regarding *A-* tier, he can defeat anyone below him with high difficulty or stalemate the ones on par; the people above that area will take the victory (high - extreme).


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Eh, Edo Itachi loses pretty badly to BM Naruto.

I mean yeah sure the latter can't seal him technically so in a straight up 1v1 Itachi has the potential to win. But on a tier list perspective BM Naruto is very much out of Itachi's league.

And having Hashirama on the same tier as current Sasuke/Naruto is iffy as well, they'd literally one-shot him at this stage considering their feats against someone who was stated to be immeasurably above 3 eyed Madara.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Eh, Edo Itachi loses pretty badly to BM Naruto.



No, he doesn't.
It's a close fight that I can see going either way...slightly in Itachi's favor.

Prior to meeting with Rikudou, Naruto made countless mistakes that could have been avoided with proper decisions. Itachi's hype from the legendary weapons has been verified by Kaguya's will, so I grant him a boost of power. Kishi would probably agree with me, too.



> I mean yeah sure the latter can't seal him technically so in a straight up 1v1 Itachi has the potential to win. But on a tier list perspective BM Naruto is very much out of Itachi's league.



In a straight-up fight, it happens to be really close. Regarding tier lists, he can defeat many opponents easier than Naruto because of how lethal genjutsu and his MS hax are.



> And having Hashirama on the same tier as current Sasuke/Naruto is iffy as well, they'd literally one-shot him at this stage considering their feats against someone who was stated to be immeasurably above 3 eyed Madara.



Not really...
I place these two at the top of that tier due to the power disparity between those individuals above them. 

Shinju Madara is immeasurably above Current Naruto, Current Sasuke and Sage Hashirama.

Sage Hashirama is still capable of giving Current Naruto high difficulty, while he can possibly defeat the likes of Current Sasuke...though I'd give it to Sauce more often.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> No, he doesn't.
> It's a close fight that I can see going either way...slightly in Itachi's favor.


I never disagreed with this but this is only really because of Edo regeneration. Naruto has him outgunned in every other category except intelligence and genjutsu. He simply has too much firepower for Itachi to deal with and is immune to every genjutsu bar Tsukiyomi (which is debatable) which takes a great deal of Itachi's hax away from him.



> Prior to meeting with Rikudou, Naruto made countless mistakes that could have been avoided with proper decisions. Itachi's hype from the legendary weapons has been verified by Kaguya's will, so I grant him a boost of power. Kishi would probably agree with me, too.


Kishimoto would also agree Naruto is his main character and his favorable showing against Edo Madara and Tobi + 6 Bijuu are more then enough for me to think he's surpassed Itachi.



> In a straight-up fight, it happens to be really close. Regarding tier lists, he can defeat many opponents easier than Naruto because of how lethal genjutsu and his MS hax are.


BM Naruto doesn't need hax when he's faster then KCM Naruto who in turn is faster and V2 Ei and has the firepower to erase mountain ranges. Itachi isn't defeating anyone easier then Naruto can. I can agree with weak opponents like Tsunade or Gaara that Edo Itachi would stomp just as hard as Naruto would but against someone like say Minato? I'd say Edo Itachi could potentially lose and BM Naruto would win very handily.

Also Bijuudama Renzaku itself is fairly hax.



> Not really...
> I place these two at the top of that tier due to the power disparity between those individuals above them.
> 
> Shinju Madara is immeasurably above Current Naruto, Current Sasuke and Sage Hashirama.


Shinju Madara got sliced in half by Sasuke and tossed around by Naruto. He may be stronger after the third eye opened but he wasn't immeasurably above (if at all) prior to that third eye.



> Sage Hashirama is still capable of giving Current Naruto high difficulty, while he can possibly defeat the likes of Current Sasuke...though I'd give it to Sauce more often.


Dafuq?

You can see the curvature of the planet when the meteors were formed, one of those meteors is far bigger then the Buddha and Naruto can spam attacks that destroy them. And I have my doubts the Buddha can deal with a Rikudo chakra powered Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo when it could only just edge out Perfect Susanoo Kurama.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I never disagreed with this but this is only really because of Edo regeneration. Naruto has him outgunned in every other category except intelligence and genjutsu. He simply has too much firepower for Itachi to deal with and is immune to every genjutsu bar Tsukiyomi (which is debatable) which takes a great deal of Itachi's hax away from him.



Edo regeneration is one part of a character you can't take away, unless Naruto has sealing techniques or Onmyoudon. And he doesn't have him outgunned everywhere else. 

Itachi is smarter; wiser; better at deception; can read people like Naruto's malice detection; has superior defense; legendary sealing techniques/shields; faster hand seals; equal and/or greater reactions; genjutsu; and hax like like Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi.



> Kishimoto would also agree Naruto is his main character and his favorable showing against Edo Madara and Tobi + 6 Bijuu are more then enough for me to think he's surpassed Itachi.



Naruto didn't have a favorable showing against Edo Madara, and Obito is one character that he's unable to defeat...even with just MS. Itachi, on the other hand, has tricks up his sleeve and can actually pressure and/or beat him. Naruto was only able to get Bijuu out of the way with Killer B, but he couldn't beat down the mastermind himself.



> BM Naruto doesn't need hax when he's faster then KCM Naruto who in turn is faster and V2 Ei and has the firepower to erase mountain ranges. Itachi isn't defeating anyone easier then Naruto can. I can agree with weak opponents like Tsunade or Gaara that Edo Itachi would stomp just as hard as Naruto would



Immense speed is one form of hax, so I don't know why you make it seem very basic in nature; it isn't any different from Itachi's hax in illusions. However, knowledge needs to be considered if we're talking in such length.

And can you name some opponents that Edo Itachi can't defeat easier than BM Naruto?
A powerful one?
Killer B is one example where I feel that Edo Itachi would come out on top with an easier time; he disorients Bee with Amaterasu and Totsuka stabs. 

Edo Itachi would also do the better job against Hashirama - compared to BM Naruto - but they would get stomped in the end, anyway.



> but against someone like say Minato? I'd say Edo Itachi could potentially lose and BM Naruto would win very handily.



That's where I disagree. 
I actually feel that Naruto has better odds than Minato, in terms of the match-up. 
Another example: Minato would do better against Obito than Naruto. 

I'm talking about overall placement and how they're matched against different opponents, along with a series of rankings in one tier. 



> Also Bijuudama Renzaku itself is fairly hax.



...which is quite linear and gets countered by Yata no Kagami.



> Shinju Madara got sliced in half by Sasuke and tossed around by Naruto. He may be stronger after the third eye opened but he wasn't immeasurably above (if at all) prior to that third eye.



Yes, he is immeasurably above the two if you look at one thing: the handicap. 
Had he not been forced to fight Rikudou x2, Shinju Madara would have stomped either Naruto or Sasuke in a one-on-one fight. Additionally, he's able to outperform them in massive AoE, but it would be completely out of character and unrealistic to end the story as such.

Same reason how Shimon Gai even stood a chance before Madara... 



> Dafuq?
> 
> You can see the curvature of the planet when the meteors were formed, one of those meteors is far bigger then the Buddha and Naruto can spam attacks that destroy them.



Or the size and power of Shinsuusenju are just being underestimated?
Even then, people can't forget that Hashirama's Mokuton is the perfect counter to Jins. Regardless of the fact that Naruto is capable of destroying his constructs, Hashirama can still fight back and actively try to suppress Naruto. We can't be blinded by this shit because of Naruto's flashy actions; it really isn't fair or logical. There are people like Obito that would *still* defeat Naruto and/or give him a run for his money. 

Hashirama is one of the same individuals.



> And I have my doubts the Buddha can deal with a Rikudo chakra powered Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo when it could only just edge out *Perfect Susanoo Kurama.*



There's the wildcard. Other than flight, nothing suggests that Sasuke's PS is on the same level as Madara's variant...even as Rikudou. When Sasuke's PS has a face-to-face clash with Choujou Kebutsu, Sauce is going to fucking die before his Enton manages to burn a decent amount or even touch it with swords.

The only thing his "meteor slashing feats" would prove is that Shinsuusenju is more durable and definitely stronger than said piece of crust. Hashirama's Shinsuusenju isn't gonna stand there and watch Sasuke rush; it's gonna aim its thousand hands at him and blast the friend out of flight. There's also the fact that Ashura's reincarnation is generally superior to Indra's character, and Sasuke is pretty similar to EMS Madara (even as Rikudou).

I only place Sasuke higher than Sage Hashirama because of portrayal at this point.
Personally, I think he'd defeat Current Sasuke more often than not (going by feats).


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## Turrin (Jun 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> The fact that that statement is what your entire argument seems to revolve around is pretty unconvincing. Especially when it has no value. It's like saying Byakugan is stronger than Sharingan because Kakashi said it in Part I and Kishimoto never went back and said that Kakashi didn't know what he was talking about.


Kakashi didn't say that tho. And that's not my whole argument anyway, it's just a crucial piece info that shouldn't be ignored.



> My opinion is that Jiraiya is strong enough that he could defeat Itachi if the odds were in his favor. But, I do think Itachi will win more often than not. But, I do see them as being in comparable leagues.


Okay, than I don't know why you have such a problem with my view point, which is only slightly different from that.



> I think we've had enough interaction that you should know that Itachi is my favorite because of his sacrifice and struggle, not his strength.


I was talking about myself bruv.



> He just seemed shocked that Kabuto had it. I don't see how that panel makes you think he was fearful.


And I don't see how that panel makes you think he didn't hold the strength of Sennin Modo in high regard.



> Well the quote states that Jiraiya is greater than Itachi and Kisame and Itachi (and Kisame) has/have most definitely shown that that is a load of shit


P1 Kisame was around P1 Kakashi level, he would be fairly useless in a fight against Itachi/Jiriaya. 

And again their are plenty of hyperbolic hype statements in the manga; this statement is no different. We should acknowledge that hyperbolic in nature, but not disregard it's intent.

People who takes the statement literally; as in those that argue Jiraiya can solo Itachi + Kisame + whoever they define as "back-up" are misusing the statement, in the same way, that people who argue that the statement should be disregard because Jiriaya can't solo Itachi + Kisame + whoever they define as "back-up". 

Both parties are taking the hyperbolic aspects to seriously and missing the point. The point of the statement was that Jiriaya had a power we hadn't seen yet, which could allow him to beat Itachi or best case it could end in them killing/heavily injuring each other 

Again no difference between this and Zetsu saying Amaterasu is the strongest Ninjutsu. Some people argue Amaterasu is the strongest based on the hyperbolic part of that statement, while others argue the whole statement is BS based on the hyperbolic part of that statement. 

Amaterasu is not literally the strongest ninjutsu, but the point of the statement should not be disregarded, that Amaterasu is really fucking powerful Ninjutsu.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Edo regeneration is one part of a character you can't take away, unless Naruto has sealing techniques or Onmyoudon. And he doesn't have him outgunned everywhere else.


Except the problem with this is anyone stronger then Base Naruto as an Edo Tensei can technically defeat him. This would mean that Sandaime is stronger then BM Naruto since he can tank all his shit with Edo regeneration and beat the shit of Base Naruto once BM runs out.

Sandaime in no way or form if handling 7 Bijuu or forcing Edo Madara to get serious.



> Itachi is smarter; wiser; better at deception; can read people like Naruto's malice detection; has superior defense; legendary sealing techniques/shields; faster hand seals; equal and/or greater reactions; genjutsu; and hax like like Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi.


Yata's Mirror could in fact be a superior defense but it doesn't encompass all of his Susanoo. BM Naruto's cloak did tank the Juubidama beam (this feat is wildly exaggerated by impressive nonetheless). Overall it's a better all-round defense since it protects Naruto entirely while I guess you could make the argument that Yata's Mirror's peak defense is better (like I would ).

Itachi doesn't have superior reactions, he does indeed have top tier reactions but it even if he did have better reactions it makes little difference here. Faster hand seals is something I generally account for a lot when it comes to Itachi match ups but more so against people like Minato/Jiraiya rather then Naruto who zooms around at V2+ speed shitting out mountain range erasers.



> Naruto didn't have a favorable showing against Edo Madara, and Obito is one character that he's unable to defeat...even with just MS. Itachi, on the other hand, has tricks up his sleeve and can actually pressure and/or beat him. Naruto was only able to get Bijuu out of the way with Killer B, but he couldn't beat down the mastermind himself.


He broke free of Wood Dragon and forced Madara to get serious. Itachi is my favourite character and I wouldn't say he'd ever push Edo Madara that far.



> Immense speed is one form of hax, so I don't know why you make it seem very basic in nature; it isn't any different from Itachi's hax in illusions. However, knowledge needs to be considered if we're talking in such length.


Immense speed combined with the ability to wipe mountain ranges off the map is probably more hax then Itachi's MS. That's not to say his MS isn't insanely hax but I'd take Naruto's moveset if we're talking about power level placement.



> And can you name some opponents that Edo Itachi can't defeat easier than BM Naruto?
> A powerful one?
> Killer B is one example where I feel that Edo Itachi would come out on top with an easier time; he disorients Bee with Amaterasu and Totsuka stabs.


Did you see what Naruto did to Bijuu 1-6? Hachibi isn't that much stronger then Six Bijuu.

BM Naruto massacres B with 2-3 BM clones hitting him with FRS then Chou Bijuudama blows him up. Regular Bijuudama hurt B quite badly; Chou Bijuudama wipes him off the map. Edo Itachi could comfortably defeat B as well but not with the same ease.



> Edo Itachi would also do the better job against Hashirama - compared to BM Naruto - but they would get stomped in the end, anyway.


Hashirama doesn't stomp BM Naruto in any way or form.

He wins I agree but Naruto has comparable firepower to Kyuubi-Susanoo so he's going to give Hashirama the fight of his life. Even Hashirama admitted 100% Kurama's power was enormous and BM Naruto's feats are better then 100% Kurama.






> ...which is quite linear and gets countered by Yata no Kagami.


Naruto in Bijuu Mode is one of the few who could blindside Itachi and hit the back of Susanoo with it. 



> Yes, he is immeasurably above the two if you look at one thing: the handicap.
> Had he not been forced to fight Rikudou x2, Shinju Madara would have stomped either Naruto or Sasuke in a one-on-one fight. Additionally, he's able to outperform them in massive AoE, but it would be completely out of character and unrealistic to end the story as such.


Sasuke chased Madara and basically fought him 1v1 and it ended with him chopping Madara in half.

AOE? Buddy you're not thinking of the size of those meteors. Sasuke and Naruto shit AOE out just as much as Madara does.



> Same reason how Shimon Gai even stood a chance before Madara...


7th Gate Gai got one-shotted...



> Or the size and power of Shinsuusenju are just being underestimated?
> Even then, people can't forget that Hashirama's Mokuton is the perfect counter to Jins. Regardless of the fact that Naruto is capable of destroying his constructs, Hashirama can still fight back and actively try to suppress Naruto. We can't be blinded by this shit because of Naruto's flashy actions; it really isn't fair or logical. There are people like Obito that would *still* defeat Naruto and/or give him a run for his money.


The meteors were so big we could see the curvature of the planet. The Buddha was nowhere near as big (and yes I'm aware the Buddha is huge as fuck).

One Bijuudama-FRS is enough to erase the Buddha and 4 more are enough to blow Hashirama to the moon.



> There's the wildcard. Other than flight, nothing suggests that Sasuke's PS is on the same level as Madara's variant...even as Rikudou. When Sasuke's PS has a face-to-face clash with Choujou Kebutsu, Sauce is going to fucking die before his Enton manages to burn a decent amount or even touch it with swords.


When has Madara's Susanoo sliced through an island sized meteor?



> The only thing his "meteor slashing feats" would prove is that Shinsuusenju is more durable and definitely stronger than said piece of crust. Hashirama's Shinsuusenju isn't gonna stand there and watch Sasuke rush; it's gonna aim its thousand hands at him and blast the friend out of flight. There's also the fact that Ashura's reincarnation is generally superior to Indra's character, and Sasuke is pretty similar to EMS Madara (even as Rikudou).


EMS Madara didn't cut Juubi Jinns in half.

Sasuke doesn't even need to beat the Buddha and yes I'd take his Rinnegan Perfect Susanoo to win in a brawl with the Buddha. He can just get closer and blitz Hashirama with his S/T warping. And no Hashirama does not have better reactions then Shinju Madara.



> I only place Sasuke higher than Sage Hashirama because of portrayal at this point.
> Personally, I think he'd defeat Current Sasuke more often than not (going by feats).


Feats have Sasuke blitzing Hashirama and sending him to the moon...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> E
> Hashirama doesn't stomp BM Naruto in any way or form.



I think Hashirama would destroy BM Naruto pretty easily because his skillset is a hard counter for Jins and with buddha he is leaps and bounds over BM Naruto in regards to overall power. In otherwords, he is a bad match up + he is alot stronger. So yeah, it would be pretty one sided.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> People should understand that the author can deviate from his initial idea in the long run. Most manga run so long that it is impossible to plan everything ahead. Its not a novel with every single detail planned from the start. It is an ongoing writing process for many years, 15 in Naruto's case.



This is the argument that I think Itachi fans should use, not the "he was lying" excuse. And that's because I simply can't imagine that when he was writing the scene, Kishimoto would intentionally make Itachi lie about something like that. It's an extremely specific piece of information that gives us a good idea of the power structure of the manga. Do you people seriously believe that he was thinking, "Okay, Itachi needs to figure out a way to not attack Naruto, so I'm just going make him hype up Jiraiya even though that'd completely screw with the current power structure"? That would be so incredibly stupid of him because he had so many options to explore if all he was trying to do was prevent an Itachi-Jiraiya confrontation, and most of those options wouldn't make Itachi say something so supposedly incorrect, nor would they so blatantly mess up the power levels. 

It's easy to assume that he was lying, but when you think about it from an authorial perspective and try to imagine what was going on in Kishimoto's head when he was writing the scene, it seems really unlikely that he intended for that to be misleading. 

The argument people should use is that Kishimoto changed his mind midway through the manga. That's a much more realistic argument because authors change their minds all the time, and we've seen that pieces of praise have been wrong before (e.g. Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage).


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## Alex Payne (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> This is the argument that I think Itachi fans should use, not the "he was lying" excuse. And that's because I simply can't imagine that when he was writing the scene, Kishimoto would intentionally make Itachi lie about something like that. It's an extremely specific piece of information that gives us a good idea of the power structure of the manga. Do you people seriously believe that he was thinking, "Okay, Itachi needs to figure out a way to not attack Naruto, so I'm just going make him hype up Jiraiya even though that'd completely screw with the current power structure"? That would be so incredibly stupid of him because he had so many options to explore if all he was trying to do was make Itachi prevent a confrontation with Jiraiya, and most of those options wouldn't make Itachi say something so supposedly incorrect, nor would they so blatantly mess up the power levels.
> 
> It's easy to assume that he was lying, but when you think about it from an authorial perspective and try to imagine what was going on in Kishimoto's head when he was writing the scene, it seems really unlikely that he intended for that to be misleading.
> 
> The argument people should use is that Kishimoto changed his mind midway through the manga. That's a much more realistic argument because authors change their minds all the time, and we've seen that pieces of praise have been wrong before (e.g. Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage).



My take on that scene is that Kishimoto specifically tried to be as ambiguous as possible when using Itachi. Either because he simply wanted the character to be mysterious or he was keeping his options open in terms of development(villain or not, true motives). We have Kakashi being confused why Itachi didn't kill him and stating that Itachi was hiding his true strength. Kisame being confused why retreat was necessary. Orochimaru's inferiority statement conflicting with Jiraiya's superiority/equality statement because of previous info about Sannin equality. DB stressing again that Itachi's true motives are unknown and he hides his true strength.

If Kishimoto's battle hierarchy at that time was truly based on that statement - why would he in the next arc again show Sannin relative equality and allow gimped Oro to be pitted against both gimped J-Man and Tsunade at the same time without any hints that full-power Jiraiya is capable of beating Orochimaru by himself?


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## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

alex payne said:


> If Kishimoto's battle hierarchy at that time was truly based on that statement - why would he in the next arc again show Sannin relative equality and allow gimped Oro to be pitted against both gimped J-Man and Tsunade at the same time without any hints that full-power Jiraiya is capable of beating Orochimaru by himself?



There wasn't any literal equality shown. That battle only showed us that they were all of a similar level. Orochimaru's statement of inferiority doesn't contradict this, and neither does Itachi's statement of equality. He might not have shown us that a full-powered Jiraiya could beat Orochimaru because that wasn't what the arc was about. We shouldn't assume the opposite just because he didn't show it.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 26, 2014)

Sick Itachi was portaryed as equal or slightly weaker than Jiraiya.

Healthy Itachi or Edo Itachi is clearly stronger though it wouldn't be an easy fight for Itachi even then.


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

Why are people saying this shit as if Kishi had No idea Itachi would be good later. Like all the evidence around points to Itachi lying to keep his spy title under wraps.


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## OodboO (Jun 26, 2014)

I think Jiraya can take scenario one and Itachi will win in two.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> There wasn't any literal equality shown. That battle only showed us that they were all of a similar level. Orochimaru's statement of inferiority doesn't contradict this, and neither does Itachi's statement of equality. He might not have shown us that a full-powered Jiraiya could beat Orochimaru because that wasn't what the arc was about. We shouldn't assume the opposite just because he didn't show it.


In Part 1 we had several statements about Sannins being equals. "To fight Sannin we need another Sannin", etc. Orochimaru clear statement of inferiority contradicts that in my opinion - if we believe that J-Man >/= Itachi. 

That single Itachi's statement created more contradictions than anything else in Part 1. Like, ok - Jiraiya can take on both Itachi and Kisame at the same time and at worst tie. He is awesome. But wait - why didn't he simply beat up Orochimaru before he attacked Konoha? He didn't know about it? But he did. He didn't know where to find him? He knew. Maybe even he wasn't certain about attacking Oro+Sound alone? He had the whole Konoha to help him. Why doesn't Orochimaru even respect him if he is fully capable of beating him? He doesn't know about his true strength? So Oro who spent 30+ years with him doesn't know but Itachi and Kisame who never even met J-Man before know?

Yeah, sure.


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## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

alex payne said:


> In Part 1 we had several statements about Sannins being equals. "To fight Sannin we need another Sannin", etc. Orochimaru clear statement of inferiority contradicts that in my opinion - if we believe that J-Man >/= Itachi.



It doesn't, and I already explained why. The only thing those statements indicate is that they're on a similar level, which is an idea that isn't contradicted by what Itachi or Orochimaru said. There isn't anything wrong with Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi and still being on the same level as Orochimaru. 



> Maybe even he wasn't certain about attacking Oro+Sound alone? He had the whole Konoha to help him.



No, he didn't. If he did, then even if Orochimaru was stronger than him, he'd have been able to crush the Sound Village. Konoha would've been a much better support to Jiraiya than the Sound Village would have been to Orochimaru.  



> Why doesn't Orochimaru even respect him if he is fully capable of beating him?



Because that's their relationship. Orochimaru is arrogant and Jiraiya is a goof ball. And how do you know that Orochimaru doesn't respect Jiraiya? 

This argument doesn't really help your cause anyway because we know that they're on a similar level, so Orochimaru should respect Jiraiya even from your perspective. He clearly doesn't, but we can assume that it has little to do with their respective strengths.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Sick Itachi was portaryed as equal or slightly weaker than Jiraiya.
> 
> Healthy Itachi or Edo Itachi is clearly stronger though it wouldn't be an easy fight for Itachi even then.



itachi was not sick in part one though. 

and SM Jiraiya is clearly stronger than base Jiraiya as well...


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> It was a joke. I was trying to show how stupid the "It's 2014 and people still believe _______ " sounds when you use it to say something that's controversial.



Itachi vs Jiraiya is about as controversial as evolution, or global warming.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> This is the argument that I think Itachi fans should use, not the "he was lying" excuse. And that's because I simply can't imagine that when he was writing the scene, Kishimoto would intentionally make Itachi lie about something like that.



Thing is, in the viz translation and from the context (Kisame nor Itachi expected their distraction tactic to work, they weren't worried _at all_ upon Jiraiya's arrival, Itachi not caring about showing his jutsu to Jiriaya and wasting stamina on Sasuke, Kisame not understanding why Itachi retreated even after Kisame asked him to stop using his eyes, Itachi saying there was no need to rush now that they knew Naruto's level, etc.) that Itachi was clearly talking about Naruto potentially releasing Kurama like Gaara could unleash Shukaku, because only Kurama had the sort of hype to the point that Itachi, even with Akatsuki backup, would only stalemate. 

Not Orochimaru's peer. Itachi was both frequently implied and shown to have mercilessly dominated Orochimaru, so how Jiriaya could be interpreted by translators on here to beat Itachi with Akatsuki backup is a mystery. The Jiriaya hype was propagated by Jiraiya fans on this site and makes no contextual sense whatsoever, even the official English translation clearly has Jiriaya _not_ being the subject of the hype, and Naruto being the subject.


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## Pocalypse (Jun 26, 2014)

It's a shame Jiraiya never came back as a Edo Tensei, we would have seen some new feats then and this battle would be even more complex and interesting. In that sense Itachi is quiet lucky that he has a upper hand in this battle, this should be clear now that Itachi is a tier ahead of Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> It's a shame Jiraiya never came back as a Edo Tensei, we would have seen some new feats then and this battle would be even more complex and interesting. In that sense Itachi is quiet lucky that he has a upper hand in this battle, this should be clear now that Itachi is a tier ahead of Jiraiya.



The only thing itachi gained is an explosion tag level jutsu and a useless jutsu against Jiraiya (Izanami). Everything else is the same. He is still inferior to Jiraiya as he has always been. 
(in the manga at least)


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## Pocalypse (Jun 26, 2014)

Well, to be honest. He went toe to toe with Naruto and Killer Bee, even instructing Killer Bee in the process to how to fight him. Also what about Yasaka Magatama? That was a new Jutsu even though it's a part of Susano'o.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

Naruto was not even fighting him seriously and only wanted to talk to him, I don't count that for anything.
and he was not even at full power to begin with because of all the clones he used. 

Not to mention, Kishi portrayed Jiraiya that highly when he compared the KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, and Sakura
to the Sannin as KCM Naruto just surpassed jirayia. 


> Yasaka Magatama


It's the jutsu that I meant when I stated it's only as strong as a kunai with an explosion tag. That won't make itachi
an entire tier stronger. Heck, Ten Ten has tons of those explosion Kunais, that does not mean she is a tier stronger
for everyone of them. lol


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## Pocalypse (Jun 26, 2014)

No but the way he fought Naruto and Killer Bee. Also, that was the real Naruto if I am not mistaken because he was traveling with Killer Bee when they set off from the island. I know Naruto was talking but he still had to fight seriously because Itachi was still being controlled, he couldn't risk not getting hit but Itachi was still able to trade blows with him. 

Also, with Yasaka Magatama, it's unfair to say it's equivalent to Tenten's techniques because going from the manga, it holds the same power as Killer Bee's Bijuudama and Naruto's FRS...since the Magatama did help in taking down Chibaku Tensei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2014)

Jiraiya = Itachi. Therefore the knowledge each possess is important.


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## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Thing is, in the viz translation and from the context (Kisame nor Itachi expected their distraction tactic to work, they weren't worried _at all_ upon Jiraiya's arrival, Itachi not caring about showing his jutsu to Jiriaya and wasting stamina on Sasuke, Kisame not understanding why Itachi retreated even after Kisame asked him to stop using his eyes, Itachi saying there was no need to rush now that they knew Naruto's level, etc.) that Itachi was clearly talking about Naruto potentially releasing Kurama like Gaara could unleash Shukaku, because only Kurama had the sort of hype to the point that Itachi, even with Akatsuki backup, would only stalemate.



Them not expecting their distraction tactic to work has little relevance, and them not being worried only points towards Jiraiya not being so much stronger than them to the extent that he'd be able to prevent them from fleeing. Itachi didn't care about showing his jutsu to Jiraiya because he knew that he'd be able to escape regardless, which is something that someone who's equal to Jiraiya should be able to do. And he wasn't sure why Itachi retreated because the fight had just started and they had barely made an attempt to capture Naruto. 



> even the official English translation clearly has Jiriaya _not_ being the subject of the hype, and Naruto being the subject.



As I'm sure you're well aware, the original translation is ambiguous to who it refers to, so the English translation making Naruto the subject only tells us that the translators interpreted it that way. Their interpretation shouldn't hold more weight than my own because this isn't an issue of understanding the literal translation, which is what their target area is. It has to do with what makes the most sense from an authorial perspective.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2014)

Akito said:
			
		

> As I'm sure you're well aware, the original translation is ambiguous to who it refers to, so the English translation making Naruto the subject only tells us that the translators interpreted it that way. Their interpretation shouldn't hold more weight than my own because this isn't an issue of understanding the literal translation, which is what their target area is. It has to do with what makes the most sense from an authorial perspective.



The official English translation always carries weight, because it's the English canon. So canonically, for us English readers, Naruto was the subject of that hype.

The author hyping Jiraiya to be so strong that Itachi said no amount of backup from Akatsuki would make a difference, and then having Jiraiya being belittled and beaten by Orochimaru, who was well established to be beneath Itachi and a stepping stone for Sasuke, makes no sense, from an authorial perspective.

Kurama, on the other hand, was an entity that took on the most powerful military establishment in the world, killed thousands, and forced the legendary Yondaime Hokage to sacrifice his life to seal inside of Naruto. Kurama could actually live up to a statement like that. Jiraiya cannot.


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## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> [The official English translation always carries weight, because it's the English canon. So canonically, for us English readers, Naruto was the subject of that hype.



There is no 'English canon' that is separate from the Japanese canon. The English canon should logically be the same as the Japanese canon because they're the same material. If the Japanese material leaves the subject ambiguous, the subject is canonically ambiguous.

And I'm not even sure if there is an official English translation anyway. The Viz translation is the closest thing you can get to that, but I wasn't aware that Kishimoto (or anyone with authority on this matter) labeled their translations as the official ones. 



> The author hyping Jiraiya to be so strong that Itachi said no amount of backup from Akatsuki would make a difference, and then having Jiraiya being belittled and beaten by Orochimaru, who was well established to be beneath Itachi and a stepping stone for Sasuke, makes no sense, from an authorial perspective.



Jiraiya never fought Orochimaru when they are at their strongest, so we can't assume anything beyond the fact that they're around the same level. Excluding Itachi's performance as an Edo Tensei, he's done nothing that puts him a whole level above Orochimaru in my mind. 



> Kurama, on the other hand, was an entity that took on the most powerful military establishment in the world and forced the legendary Yondaime Hokage to sacrifice his life to seal inside of Naruto. Kurama could actually live up to a statement like that. Jiraiya can't. As I've correctly pointed out for years, Itachi is Minato's parallel for Sasuke.



Their approach to capturing Naruto then was incredibly foolish once they got Jiraiya out of the way. They casually strolled up to the room of a person who might be able to beat the entirety of Akatsuki. They're either incredibly arrogant or they didn't think Naruto was a threat. 

And aren't you of the opinion that Itachi can just suppress the nine-tails? 



> In part one, Naruto wanted to be the greatest Hokage, and Minato was considered the greatest Hokage (although not the strongest, in hindsight.) Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi. Both left with Sannin to reach those goals, because the Sannin were merely stepping stones for them, and for the "main" part one villains each would face: Itachi and the Akatsuki Leader. Readers could guess all this, even ten years ago, because that's how the story was set up.



The problem with that train of thinking is that you're working under the assumption that Sasuke and Naruto's goals in this case are even. When Sasuke fought Itachi, I don't think he was a match for Naruto when he fought Pain. I'm sure you probably believe Hebi Sasuke = Naruto, but that's subject to debate.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Jiraiya never fought Orochimaru when they are at their strongest, so we can't assume anything beyond the fact that they're around the same level. Excluding Itachi's performance as an Edo Tensei, he's done nothing that puts him a whole level above Orochimaru in my mind.



Think about it from the authorial perspective. There's a reason Kisho showed Itachi steamrolling Deidara, Orochimaru, etc. He was cultivating the aura of invincibility because Itachi was set up to be a climactic villain. Itachi was hyped to be untouchable, not unlike Kurama. Jiraiya? Not at all.

Itachi defeating Orochimaru both times indicated, from the authorial perspective, that Itachi was a whole level above Orochimaru. The second time he was blind, dying, exhausted, and he said "Got anything else, Sasuke?" as if Orochimaru were some C-rank genjutsu that Sasuke tried on him.



			
				Akito said:
			
		

> Their approach to capturing Naruto then was incredibly foolish once they got Jiraiya out of the way. They casually strolled up to the room of a person who might be able to beat the entirety of Akatsuki. They're either incredibly arrogant or they didn't think Naruto was a threat.



Not really, given that Itachi wasn't planning on capturing Kurama for Akatsuki anyway. But it's not unusual for ninja to be pretty direct about those sorts of things anyway, even if an ambush would be wiser.



			
				Akito said:
			
		

> And aren't you of the opinion that Itachi can just suppress the nine-tails?



Obviously, but that's information that Kisame may not know, and even if he did, it fits perfectly with Itachi saying that having all of Akatsuki at his back wouldn't make a difference, as he'd either control it or they'd _all_ be in trouble.



			
				Akito said:
			
		

> The problem with that train of thinking is that you're working under the assumption that Sasuke and Naruto's goals in this case are even. When Sasuke fought Itachi, I don't think he was a match for Naruto when he fought Pain. I'm sure you probably believe Hebi Sasuke = Naruto, but that's subject to debate.



The author had switched things up at that point, and made Sasuke's fight a complete farce so he could move on to the first of an endless stream of behind-the-scene-villains while maintaining Itachi's aura of awesome.

Itachi's also a different style of fighter. He doesn't have a lot of juice, but he hits fast and hard. If Naruto gave him the opening, like he'd done several times prior, Itachi wouldn't have to burn much fuel.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Viz Media is the official distributor of the manga here and the company speaks with Kishimoto's editors. Like it or not, it's a lot more accurate then the biased translators Turrin and Hussain talk to.


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## Krippy (Jun 26, 2014)

Jiraiya would lose to Itachi every time if he doesn't start in SM. He would go down in a similar fashion to Orochimaru. If you allow him to start with it he can push Itachi to mid-high diff but would still lose more times than not.

Edo Itachi isn't even a contest.

Orochimaru = Jiraiya

Itachi = Minato


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## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi defeating Orochimaru both times indicated, from the authorial perspective, that Itachi was a whole level above Orochimaru.



And that's your opinion. I view it differently.


> Not really, given that Itachi wasn't planning on capturing Kurama for Akatsuki anyway.



Why are you ignoring Kisame? He clearly thought it'd be a good idea despite hearing what Itachi had to say about the nine-tails' strength. 



> But it's not unusual for ninja to be pretty direct about those sorts of things anyway, even if an ambush would be wiser.



There's a difference between being direct and being completely casual. They didn't show the slightest form of wariness when they knocked. You'd think that if they truly felt that they could be facing someone who could beat their entire force combined, they'd approach it with a little more hesitance. 



> and even if he did, it fits perfectly with Itachi saying that having all of Akatsuki at his back wouldn't make a difference, as he'd either control it or they'd _all_ be in trouble.



Itachi said the best he could do is tie Kurama. That doesn't flow well with your belief that he'd at best be able to suppress him. 



> The author had switched things up at that point, and made Sasuke's fight a complete farce so he could move on to the first of an endless stream of behind-the-scene-villains while maintaining Itachi's aura of awesome.
> 
> Itachi's also a different style of fighter. He doesn't have a lot of juice, but he hits fast and hard. If Naruto gave him the opening, like he'd done several times prior, Itachi wouldn't have to burn much fuel.



Did you mistype this response, or am I missing something here? I don't see how this relates to what you quoted. 



Ersatz said:


> Viz Media is the official distributor of the manga here and the company speaks with Kishimoto's editors. Like it or not, it's a lot more accurate then the biased translators Turrin and Hussain talk to.



It is not _the_ official distributor. And even if it was, that doesn't at all mean that we should create our own English canon by pulling things from the Japanese canon that aren't there. What we as readers are trying to do is interpret what Kishimoto wrote. The fact remains that what he wrote is ambiguous. Thus, it is canonically ambiguous. 

This "official translation" nonsense has to stop.


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

> Viz is the real translation
> Itachi was a spy
> Reading comprehension


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Jiraiya would lose to Itachi every time if he doesn't start in SM. He would go down in a similar fashion to Orochimaru. If you allow him to start with it he can push Itachi to mid-high diff but would still lose more times than not.
> 
> Edo Itachi isn't even a contest.
> 
> ...



Such a horrible reading comprehension.  

itachi loses to jman whether you like it or not. The best he can do is tie. 



Dr. White said:


> > Viz is the real translation
> > Itachi was a spy
> > Reading comprehension



> JP is the original language for the manga
> Jiraiya was a spy
> denial.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> There's a difference between being direct and being completely casual. They didn't show the slightest form of wariness when they knocked. You'd think that if they truly felt that they could be facing someone who could beat their entire force combined, they'd approach it with a little more hesitance.



Itachi always remains casual at the beginning of fights, as it puts his opponents at ease and makes them vulnerable to genjutsu.



			
				Akito said:
			
		

> This "official translation" nonsense has to stop.



I don't see how it's nonsense. I get the feeling that the professionals that were chosen to translate are more reliable. And it's not really ambiguous. Kurama had the hype and presence to take on several Akatsuki members. Jiraiya did not.

Jiraiya couldn't even get his own summon to respect him, or Orochimaru. Itachi earned Orochimaru's adulation as a child and was credited with killing off a legendary clan. He was an enigma that could believably stalemate Kurama.

Hence the straightforward conclusion, even without Kisame and Itachi's statements before and after directly saying as much.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Viz Media is the official distributor of the manga here and the company speaks with Kishimoto's editors. Like it or not, it's a lot more accurate then the biased translators Turrin and Hussain talk to.



Why do you think they are bias? 
It's not one or two, who said that.


Do you think they are bias because you love itachi and do not want to see him inferior as he stated, or because you, yourself know better than them in JP and based on that you decided that they are biased? 

and even if Viz was the "official translation" who said they are flawless? 
how can you know they were as good as they are back then?

Heck, even kishi himself, the some of the fans think he knows nothing about his manga, and they know better than him. So, if the author himself is being seen in that light, then why not Viz? @>@

and I hope you are not like some of the others-------. If you do not want any kind of debate about him, then you just can say that.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> It is not _the_ official distributor. And even if it was, that doesn't at all mean that we should create our own English canon by pulling things from the Japanese canon that aren't there. What we as readers are trying to do is interpret what Kishimoto wrote. The fact remains that what he wrote is ambiguous. Thus, it is canonically ambiguous.
> 
> This "official translation" nonsense has to stop.



*Wiki entry*


> Viz Media has licensed the manga and anime for North American production. Viz is serializing Naruto in their digital Weekly Shonen Jump magazine, as well as publishing the individual volumes. The anime series began airing in the United States and Canada in 2005, and later in the United Kingdom and Australia in 2006 and 2007, respectively. The films, as well as most OVAs from the series, have also been released by Viz, with the first film premiering in cinemas. The first DVD volume of Naruto: Shippuden was released by Viz in North America on Sept. 29, 2009, started broadcast on Disney XD in October of the same year and on Adult Swim's Toonami block in January 2014. Viz Media began streaming both series on their streaming service Neon Alley in December 2012.


I think as far as America goes, Viz Media is the official Naruto distributor. They can talk with Kishimoto's editors so obviously there is some form of contract or deal there. Anyways I do think these professionals with access to Kishimoto are more trustworthy so then some random internet translator.

It's not really Viz's canon if they talk to the original editors I reckon.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

After a small research, seems it's right. 
all those translators are in fact wrong, and only biased against itachi. 
those haters, how can we trust them! 



His statement turned out to be biased indeed!


> I insist that the way the conversation goes down makes it look like they're talking about Naruto first, only to bring in Jiraiya later as Naruto's caretaker and a threat in his own right. This is evidenced by the way njt and Viz translated it.
> 
> However, I did what I always do when I can't conclusively settle an argument or understand something. I went through the Japanese Internet (2chan, among others) to see what they think. The general consensus there seems to be that the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not Naruto (Kyuubi) then Jiraiya as I thought.
> 
> ...



ShounenSuki's Translation:


> Spoiler:
> Kisame:
> 「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
> 「次元が違う」
> ...



The same with this  !

those Evil Organisation! They all worked together to put down itachi! 
but alas! They have, and will never succeeded!

Who cares about those Japanese haters either, they obviously know nothing about the OFFICIAL English translation which is way better the the japanese text anyway.


----------



## Akitō (Jun 26, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi always remains casual at the beginning of fights, as it puts his opponents at ease and makes them vulnerable to genjutsu.



His emotional state and mannerisms are casual. That doesn't mean his approach to fighting is casual. There's a big difference between being composed and blindly confronting someone who could potentially be much stronger than you in such a straight-up fashion. 



> I don't see how it's nonsense. I get the feeling that the professionals that were chosen to translate are more reliable.



Didn't we already go through this? The 'professionals' are only professionals at literally translating the text. They aren't professionals at interpreting an ambiguous conversation and determining who it's about. Their authority stops when they determined that the original text is ambiguous. 



> And it's not really ambiguous. Kurama had the hype and presence to take on several Akatsuki members. Jiraiya did not.



This is your opinion. And I wasn't talking about the subject itself being ambiguous. I was more referring to the text being ambiguous in the sense that if you look at the conversation in a vacuum (i.e. ignore what we know about the characters), you wouldn't be able to determine who the subject is. 



> Jiraiya couldn't even get his own summon to respect him, or Orochimaru. Itachi earned Orochimaru's adulation as a child and was credited with killing off a legendary clan. He was an enigma that could believably stalemate Kurama.



I'd like to see your evidence for that first claim, and Itachi killing off the Uchiha clan and gaining Orochimaru's respect doesn't put him anywhere near Kurama. That isn't to say that he isn't as strong as Kurama; it's just that those two tidbits of info don't help his cause. 



Ersatz said:


> *Wiki entry*
> 
> I think as far as America goes, Viz Media is the official Naruto distributor. They can talk with Kishimoto's editors so obviously there is some form of contract or deal there.
> 
> It's not really Viz's canon if they talk to the original editors I reckon.



None of that means that they're _the_ official distributors. They can be _an_ official distributor, but that's different from being the end-all be-all when it comes to translations.  And where are you seeing that they have contact with the editors? 



> Anyways I do think these professionals with access to Kishimoto are more trustworthy so then some random internet translator.



Nearly every internet translator that's translated the conversation has said that the text is ambiguous. Just because Viz translates it one way doesn't mean that they didn't find it ambiguous too. That simply points towards them favoring one interpretation over the other. You might argue that because they're professional translators, their interpretation holds more weight than other people's. But that isn't true because choosing one interpretation over the other isn't a matter of translating the text - it's a matter of looking at the context of the conversation and figuring out what makes sense from an authorial perspective.


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## StickaStick (Jun 26, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya = Itachi. Therefore the knowledge each possess is important.



This is pretty much how I feel. It seems to me like Jiraiya has gotten a bad rap because he hasn't be relevant story- or power-wise since before the Pain-Invasion Arc, which feels like a lifetime ago; while Itachi was brought back as an Edo and showcased more. The arguments I'm seeing have to do with his Itachi's showings against Edo Nagato and Sage Kabuto completely playing up his contributions while ignoring or being oblivious to the circumstances at play. 

To the match-up in question honestly I see it as the same for both scenarios, since Jiraiya should be able to reach SM in Scenario 1 safely the majority of the time: it you played it out a hundred times it would probably go something like 55-45 Itachi, but the same time I could easily see that being 50-50 or 55-45 Jiraiya. The starting distance and SM's capabilities afford Jiraiya a lot of advantages to go toe-to-toe with Itachi Edo or not.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2014)

The Format said:


> This is pretty much how I feel. It seems to me like Jiraiya has gotten a bad rap because he hasn't be relevant story- or power-wise since before the Pain-Invasion Arc, which feels like a lifetime ago; while Itachi was brought back as an Edo and showcased more. The arguments I'm seeing have to do with his Itachi's showings against Edo Nagato and Sage Kabuto completely playing up his contributions while ignoring or being oblivious to the circumstances at play.
> .



It's directly because itachi was brought back. The problem though, his coming back does NOT by any mean show any superiority. Itachi's return did give him some feats and jutsus like.


Yasaka Magatama
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson (around C-Rank)
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique (B-Rank - though even this was only genjutsu )
 Izanami

How are those jutsu enough to make him go several tiers above what he was before? 
The Hypocrisy is way too huge to be ignored. Those level of jutsus, and the Izanami being pretty
much useless against almost everyone who is not an Izanagi user make itachi jumbo several tiers.

Then, they, themselves when you asked them about how does

SM, KCM, BM, Clones, Sensing, barrier, TBB, chakra arms...etc change someone's level?
No, they change nothing. 

What even more ironic, is the fact that itachi was put against a sage, and we have seen his jutsus weakness, and it's so happened that Jman possesses them. 

the sound and earth jutsus against the Sasusanoo
the sensing against the genjutsu and the Amatersu

if anything, his battle with Kabuto made that statement just more believable, as I, myself was a believer that itachi > Jman (until someone made me change my mind) and that battle with Kabuto just made the statement makes much more sense.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Akitō said:


> None of that means that they're _the_ official distributors. They can be _an_ official distributor, but that's different from being the end-all be-all when it comes to translations.  And where are you seeing that they have contact with the editors?


I don't see any other English company that has the license to Naruto.

I don't remember but Strategoob (I think it was him, maybe someone else) once had an interview where someone stated Viz could clarify stuff with Kishi's editors. It makes sense given they have a contract.




> Nearly every internet translator that's translated the conversation has said that the text is ambiguous. Just because Viz translates it one way doesn't mean that they didn't find it ambiguous too. That simply points towards them favoring one interpretation over the other. You might argue that because they're professional translators, their interpretation holds more weight than other people's. But that isn't true because choosing one interpretation over the other isn't a matter of translating the text - it's a matter of looking at the context of the conversation and figuring out what makes sense from an authorial perspective.


I don't really disagree with this to be honest. It could be Kurama or it could be Base Jiraiya, I personally think the former is more likely but I can see the other side of it. The only reason I don't put much stock into the statement is honestly because it's been disproven by feats in my opinion and as well as the potential for Itachi to lie. It's no different from Hiruzen being stronger then Hashirama.


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## Thunder (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> This is pretty much how I feel. It seems to me like Jiraiya has gotten a bad rap because he hasn't be relevant story- or power-wise since before the Pain-Invasion Arc, which feels like a lifetime ago; while Itachi was brought back as an Edo and showcased more. The arguments I'm seeing have to do with his Itachi's showings against Edo Nagato and Sage Kabuto completely playing up his contributions while ignoring or being oblivious to the circumstances at play.



Exactly. Kishimoto would've bestowed Jiraiya with "new" powers too if he were reincarnated as an _Edo Tensei_. So it's perfectly reasonable for us to assume that Jiraiya would also fair very well if he were paired up with Naruto against a strong foe for example,  mirroring what we saw with Itachi and Sasuke vs. _Sennin Mōdo_ Kabuto. 

Which shouldn't come as a surprise considering Jiraiya's equals*?*Orochimaru and Tsunade*?*have both shown us something new during the War Arc. It wouldn't be any different with Jiraiya.


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## Akitō (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I don't see any other English company that has the license to Naruto.



Madman Entertainment distributes Naruto volumes in English. And like I said earlier, even if Viz was the official distributor, that doesn't mean that its translations are never wrong, nor does it mean that everything its translators translate should automatically become a part of a separate English canon.



Ersatz said:


> I don't remember but Strategoob (I think it was him, maybe someone else) once had an interview where someone stated Viz could clarify stuff with Kishi's editors. It makes sense given they have a contract.



Do you know where to find the interview?


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## Cognitios (Jun 27, 2014)

> Which shouldn't come as a surprise considering Jiraiya's equals—Orochimaru and Tsunade—have both shown us something new during the War Arc. It wouldn't be any different with Jiraiya.


In all fairness, Tsunade only got a powerup that put her as Jiraiya's equal.
As for Orochimaru, while it is hard to tell with his new zetsu body how much he has advanced, I would guess that Orochimaru is also at Jiraiya's equal now.
Jiraiya was ahead of the sannin before, now he is equal to them as it should be, but I doubt he had anything to trump Sage Mode.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 27, 2014)

Jiraiya is the only Sannin receiving a proper fight before the War arc, same can't be said to the other 2 Sannin. The former actually has a chance to offer all powers he has, while the latter don't.

Well, Oro's case is quite...... convenient. He just turns to a plot device to revive Hokages and the Zetsu body seems like a plot tool more than a proper powerup in the author's eyes. We can't even see what else he has under his sleeves.


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## Thunder (Jun 27, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> In all fairness, Tsunade only got a powerup that put her as Jiraiya's equal.



Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade are equals in the sense they share the same title: Sannin. 

However, if the Sansukumi relationship (Slug > Snake > Toad >  Slug) is to be taken at face value, one could interpret that to mean the  Sannin are _supposed_ to viewed as equals. But I believe  this line of thinking is only relevant to Part 1?a time when  statements like "only a Sannin can defeat another Sannin" were still  applicable. 

Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura have taken over the Sannin name since then.  And seeing how there's a very noticeable power-gap separating Sakura  from her teammates, we can expect the same to be true of the original  Sannin now. Jiraiya and Orochimaru being "stronger" than Tsunade overall  makes perfect sense as Tsunade is a medical ninja above all else. So it  fits.

The point is, though, Jiraiya would receive a power-up or new feats just  like his teammates did as the story progresses. Whether or not his  teammates are equal to him doesn't matter. They all share a connection.



> As for Orochimaru, while it is hard to tell with his new zetsu body how much he has advanced, I would guess that Orochimaru is also at Jiraiya's equal now.



Now that Orochimaru has acquired a Zetsu body entering  Sennin Mōdo may be possible now. We'll see.



> Jiraiya was ahead of the sannin before, now he is equal to them as it should be, but I doubt he had anything to trump Sage Mode.



Jiraiya doesn't need something above  Sennin Mōdo in order to compete. Since we're using Itachi as a base for  comparison here ? what did Itachi display that trumps the trinity of  Mangekyō Sharingan powers? Nothing.

Itachi received a Katon (Hōsenka Tsumabeni), a  situational genjutsu (Izanami), and an addition to his Susanō (Yasaka no  Magatama).

Still keeping the companion going, Jiraiya might receive a Katon /  Doton, a toad summon, and an addition to his Sennin Mōdo in the form  of a Senpō ninjutsu. Just some likely possibilities I'm throwing out  here. I know someone's going to jump on them (not necessarily you  Cognitos) so don't take them too seriously.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2014)

@thunder 

Tsuande isn't necessarily weaker then the other Sannin at all. Her being a medical ninja really doesn't account for much considering she incorporates her medical Ninjustu in battle( Byakago~ Sozo Saisei), has the ability to one shot Sussano, and sports a perfect stat in taijustu along with outrageous Durability..... 

Not only this but you really can't say the Sannin were only considered equals in part one if you take into account that Tsuande was weakened the entire time, Oro was weakened a good amount of the time, and Jirayia was healthy the entire time. If anything, them being equals at that time would translate to Tsuande and Oro being superior to Jirayia in part 2, especially considering Kishi had already thought up Jirayia's Sage Mode way before the Sannin deadlock. 

It's also to note that the Sannin are in their fifties and haven't gotten any more powerful in years . Sakura , Sasuke , and Naruto routinely receive power ups, and their ability  changes frequently unlike the original Sannin. Not only this , but Naruto and Sasuke are the main characters and their overall potential and skill is based upon their relation between Indra| Asura| Madara| Hashirama, while Sakura really has no important place an anything. It would be unfair to say Tsuandes weaker then the other Sannin based on Sakura being ass lol.


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## trance (Jun 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Not only this but you really can't say the Sannin were only considered equals in part one if you take into account that Tsuande was weakened the entire time, Oro was weakened a good amount of the time, and Jirayia was healthy the entire time. If anything, them being equals at that time would translate to Tsuande and Oro being superior to Jirayia in part 2, especially considering Kishi had already thought up Jirayia's Sage Mode way before the Sannin deadlock.



With Sennin Mode, Jiraiya would beat Tsunade more times than not. With Edo Tensei and Yamato no Orochi, Orochimaru would beat Tsunade more times than not.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> With Sennin Mode, Jiraiya would beat Tsunade more times than not. With Edo Tensei and Yamato no Orochi, Orochimaru would beat Tsunade more times than not.



Not going to disagree with that. But that doesnt change the fact that they are clearly ALL viewed as equals on the battlefield.

It's also doesn't change the fact that or or rarely has Edo prepped and Jirayia needs to enter Sannin mode. If anything this proves that base Tsuande >> all other base Sannin.


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## trance (Jun 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Not going to disagree with that. But that doesnt change the fact that they are clearly ALL viewed as equals on the battlefield.
> 
> It's also doesn't change the fact that or or rarely has Edo prepped and Jirayia needs to enter Sannin mode. If anything this proves that base Tsuande >> all other base Sannin.



Base Tsunade is Tsunade without Byakugo, right? If that's the case, then they're still approximately equal.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Base Tsunade is Tsunade without Byakugo, right? If that's the case, then they're still approximately equal.



Not really I consider Tsuande in general just to always be in base lol. Only because Jirayia actually has a transformation and Oro has infinite chakra, self regenerating Edo that are at his command. Neither of those sound base at all. Tsuande simply has her unique Justu plus a boss summoning. So does Oro and Jirayia yet they both also have upgrades on to that , hence the reason Tsuande is always base in my opinion.

Oro with Edo > Sage Jirayia > Tsunade > Base Jirayia = Base Oro.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Not really I consider Tsuande in general just to always be in base lol. Only because Jirayia actually has a transformation and Oro has infinite chakra, self regenerating Edo that are at his command. Neither of those sound base at all. Tsuande simply has her unique Justu plus a boss summoning. So does Oro and Jirayia yet they both also have upgrades on to that , hence the reason Tsuande is always base in my opinion.
> 
> Oro with Edo > Sage Jirayia > Tsunade > Base Jirayia = Base Oro.



Jiraiya in base would beat  Tsunade more times than not. He counters her pretty decently, particularly with his trapping techniques


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Jiraiya in base would beat  Tsunade more times than not. He counters her pretty decently, particularly with his trapping techniques



I disagree. What can he use against her that would kill or beat her in base ?


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Jiraiya is the only Sannin receiving a proper fight before the War arc, same can't be said to the other 2 Sannin. *The former actually has a chance to offer all powers he has, while the latter don't.*
> 
> Well, Oro's case is quite...... convenient. He just turns to a plot device to revive Hokages and the Zetsu body seems like a plot tool more than a proper powerup in the author's eyes. We can't even see what else he has under his sleeves.



No, that would be a waste because Pain was absorbing his ninjutsu, so there was no point to use
other Ninjutsu when he knows they will get absorbed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> This is pretty much how I feel. It seems to me like Jiraiya has gotten a bad rap because he hasn't be relevant story- or power-wise since before the Pain-Invasion Arc, which feels like a lifetime ago; while Itachi was brought back as an Edo and showcased more. The arguments I'm seeing have to do with his Itachi's showings against Edo Nagato and Sage Kabuto completely playing up his contributions while ignoring or being oblivious to the circumstances at play.
> 
> To the match-up in question honestly I see it as the same for both scenarios, since Jiraiya should be able to reach SM in Scenario 1 safely the majority of the time: it you played it out a hundred times it would probably go something like 55-45 Itachi, but the same time I could easily see that being 50-50 or 55-45 Jiraiya. The starting distance and SM's capabilities afford Jiraiya a lot of advantages to go toe-to-toe with Itachi Edo or not.



The problem with that is, prior to ET, Itachi was already portrayed superior to Jiraiya, and there were alot of new revelations for us to question the validty of that statement. Not particuarly saying that Itachi was lying @ that point but rather, did Kishimoto really meant to say that they were supposed to be equals. 

In 2008, even before the revelations about Itachi came into play, majority thought Itachi was already superior to Jiraiya. And at the time, the only pro argument for Jiraiya was.... take a wild guess... yes, the famous statement of Itachi saying that he'd draw with him. 
6 years later, the only pro Jiraiya argument is, the same statement.
even 60 years later, it will be the same. 

Some people got stuck in the past and failed to see beyond that point. Or didn't read carefully, or ignored what they read, I don't know. Not my concern TBH. 

EDO Itachi was the dessert, not the main course. It was just a way for us to justify what we already knew.


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2014)

The Japanese fans themselves treat the statement as if it's referring to Jiraiya. Every translator who has ever looked into the statement in detail agrees. Stragoob knows this. He is just messing with you Akito


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

Yeah I agree with that. 

We knew how powerful Naruto was @ that point. He was weak as shit. So it would be utterly pointless to overrate him like that.


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## KnightGhost (Jun 27, 2014)

A dead debate that was settled long ago all other sense-able fans have moved on other then obsessed crazy jirga ya fans

Itachi stomps him  so quick he doesn't even know what happened.

very very low diff.


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## KeltA (Jun 27, 2014)

LOL that skinny cunt itachi cannot beat anythink but his own dick XDD


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> A dead debate that was settled long ago all other sense-able fans have moved on other then obsessed crazy jirga ya fans


Yet it was an Itachi-fan who started this thread


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## Bloo (Jun 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The Japanese fans themselves treat the statement as if it's referring to Jiraiya. Every translator who has ever looked into the statement in detail agrees. Stragoob knows this. He is just messing with you Akito


Again, why is that relevant? Anyone who actually is going to take that one statement, made by a famed liar, as proof that Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya is deluded, especially with us having feats to back up our arguments. Anyone using that pathetic excuse for dialogue is only doing so because they can't form an argument based off of the displayed feats. If Itachi was being honest and believed what he was saying, we've seen enough from both to know that it isn't true. Turrin, Itachi can be wrong about something. I didn't buy Orochimaru being weaker than Itachi until we saw it, twice.

That statement shouldn't even be brought into discussion.


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## Icegaze (Jun 27, 2014)

oh no not this thread again 
itachi wins especially as an edo, he absolutely slaughters 
healthy itachi still wins, tskuyomi will land and jiraiya dies. amaterasu lands and jiraiya dies.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 27, 2014)

I wonder why people never factor in.

itachi turned out to be a good guy in there argument, not saying that's 100% the explanation tho it is very plausible but people always seem to not factor this in.

Can anybody answer that?


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## Akitō (Jun 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I wonder why people never factor in.
> 
> itachi turned out to be a good guy in there argument, not saying that's 100% the explanation tho it is very plausible but people always seem to not factor this in.
> 
> Can anybody answer that?



It's because we don't think that he was lying about Jiraiya's strength. Just because he's a good guy and a famed liar doesn't mean that he lied about literally everything. From the author's standpoint, I don't think it'd make much sense for Itachi to lie about something so specific when there were countless other options that Kishimoto could've explored to set up the same situation. The fact that Kisame didn't contest Itachi's claim immediately means that it clearly wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.



Bloo said:


> Again, why is that relevant?



Did you completely skip the last few pages? Because that's the only explanation for you asking something that has such an obvious answer.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Again, why is that relevant? Anyone who actually is going to take that one statement, made by a famed liar, as proof that Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya is deluded, especially with us having feats to back up our arguments..


Why do you keep referring to him at a "famed liar" suggesting that it's compulsive by his nature? He deceives strategically and it's already been broken down numerous times in this thread why your interpretation doesn't make sense.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *The problem with that is, prior to ET, Itachi was already portrayed superior to Jiraiya*, and there were alot of new revelations for us to question the validty of that statement. Not particuarly saying that Itachi was lying @ that point but rather, did Kishimoto really meant to say that they were supposed to be equals.


Tbh I'm not seeing how this is a valid conclusion at all. Let's look at the note each went out on: Jiraiya was killed after taking down three Paths _without _knowledge and even managed to take down another after being ganged on by all Six Paths. Furthermore, Pain eludes to the possibility that _with _knowledge Jiraiya could have outright beaten him. Now I'm of the opinion that Pain was taking location and other factors into consideration and thus on a more neutral field I don't see Jiraiya faring well against all Six Paths at once. But the mere fact that Pain thinks Jiraiya could have beaten him at all with knowledge is still very impressive regardless.

Itachi in contrast died after planning his defeat against Sasuke; and while that is certainly impressive in terms of planning and execution I don't really see it as nearly as impressive as the note Jiraiya went out on. This isn't even taking into consideration my belief that Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi legit (as how he was able to is explained to us via BZ and to willfully allow him to break out doesn't make the slightest bit of sense given Itachi's goals) which would devalue his performance a bit, but for the sake of this argument we'll just say that was part of his plan as well. 

So looking back I'm not seeing how Itachi was portrayed as superior to Jiraiya, by any significant margin. 



> In 2008, even before the revelations about Itachi came into play, majority thought Itachi was already superior to Jiraiya. And at the time, the only pro argument for Jiraiya was.... take a wild guess... yes, the famous statement of Itachi saying that he'd draw with him.
> 6 years later, the only pro Jiraiya argument is, the same statement.
> even 60 years later, it will be the same.


I can't speak to six years ago, but now with hindsight I'm still of the opinion that Itachi >= Jiraiya. The ironic thing is that I think Jiraiya's stock as actually risen just has much during the War-Arc as Itachi's has via SM hype--in part from none other than Itachi himself--and further enlightenment on its capabilities and Itachi's own weaknesses; which warrants consideration in a match-up between the two.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> Tbh I'm not seeing how this is a valid conclusion at all. Let's look at the note each went out on: Jiraiya was killed after taking down three Paths _without _knowledge and even managed to take down another after being ganged on by all Six Paths. Furthermore, Pain eludes to the possibility that _with _knowledge Jiraiya could have outright beaten him. Now I'm of the opinion that Pain was taking location and other factors into consideration and thus on a more neutral field I don't see Jiraiya faring well against all Six Paths at once. But the mere fact that Pain thinks Jiraiya could have beaten him at all with knowledge is still very impressive regardless.


Imo Jiraiya's performance against Pain wasn't impressive at all. He was able to beat the 3 weaker bodies with a trump card which he wasn't aware of its existence. And right after that, he got stomped into the ground. 



> Itachi in contrast died after planning his defeat against Sasuke; and while that is certainly impressive in terms of planning and execution I don't really see it as nearly as impressive as the note Jiraiya went out on.


The jutsu that were executed in Itachi vs Sasuke were on a completely different ballpark than the ones used in Pain vs Jiraiya. So I have trouble seeing how Itachi vs Sasuke was in any way or form inferior. 



> This isn't even taking into consideration my belief that Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi legit (as how he was able to is explained to us via BZ and to willfully allow him to break out doesn't make the slightest bit of sense given Itachi's goals) which would devalue his performance a bit, but for the sake of this argument we'll just say that was part of his plan as well.


What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. 
Why would Itachi risk defeating Sasuke ?  Obito said it clearly, if Itachi wanted Sasuke dead. Sasuke'd be dead. Obviously Itachi didn't hit Sasuke with all he got.The whole "performance" was staged for the sole purpose of giving Sasuke MS and removing Orochimaru. 

And Zetsu didn't know what the fuck he was talking about because he was in the dark as much as we were regarding Itachi's true motives.



> So looking back I'm not seeing how Itachi was portrayed as superior to Jiraiya, by any significant margin.


I think it is pretty clear. Sasuke vs Itachi was a higher level battle(also fuckloads more relevant to the plot) than Jiraiya vs Pain. When Pain declared that he'd go and catch Kyuubi, BZ said "fuck that I'll go and see another fight." That solidifies the hype around Itachi vs Sasuke being on a completely different level than Jiraiya vs Pain. 

And thats not the sole reason why I think Itachi had better portrayal. 

This : _appears_
and this : 
_appears_

Thats a completely different level of treatment.



> I can't speak to six years ago, but now with hindsight I'm still of the opinion that Itachi >= Jiraiya. The ironic thing is that I think Jiraiya's stock as actually risen just has much during the War-Arc as Itachi's has via SM hype--in part from none other than Itachi himself--and further enlightenment on its capabilities and Itachi's own weaknesses; which warrants consideration in a match-up between the two.



Well you shouldn't feel bad. There are probably 2 or 3 members out there who still think that Jiraiya >= Itachi like you do.


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## trance (Jun 27, 2014)

> Imo Jiraiya's performance against Pain wasn't impressive at all. He was able to beat the 3 weaker bodies with a trump card which he wasn't aware of its existence. And right after that, he got stomped into the ground.



He started off with no intel at all, though. After the battle, Pein admitted that if he prior knowledge of all six, Jiraiya would've won. Now, obviously with trump cards like CST and CT, he can end Jiraiya but my take on it is that with prior knowledge on all six, Jiraiya would've at least been able to do better.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 27, 2014)

Jiraiya definitely would've done better if he had done things like take out Preta just as easily as he blinded Human Path (how did he heal after the battle if revival didn't help his eyes?) and that would've let him take the first batch down a lot easier


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Imo Jiraiya's performance against Pain wasn't impressive at all. He was able to beat the 3 weaker bodies with a trump card which he wasn't aware of its existence. And right after that, he got stomped into the ground.


That's just straight-up disrespecting Jiraiya to think the performance wasn't impressive at all. Entities that can absorb ninjutsu, call forth Boss Summons, and soul rip is no joke and Jiraiya, via Ma and Pa, was able to one-shot them before being caught off guard and gang banged.

The comments about the "trump card" and "getting stomped" are interesting too because: one, Izanami and, two, a lot of guys get stomped by Pain, particularly with no knowledge.



> The jutsu that were executed in Itachi vs Sasuke were on a completely different ballpark than the ones used in Pain vs Jiraiya. So I have trouble seeing how Itachi vs Sasuke was in any way or form inferior.
> 
> ]What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.
> Why would Itachi risk defeating Sasuke ?  Obito said it clearly, if Itachi wanted Sasuke dead. Sasuke'd be dead. Obviously Itachi didn't hit Sasuke with all he got.The whole "performance" was staged for the sole purpose of giving Sasuke MS and removing Orochimaru.
> ...


I make no sense and yet you come back at me with why would Itachi risk defeating Sasuke? 

Itachi's goals for the most part were two-fold. Abstract Oro from Sasuke and impart Sasuke with a fail-safe Ama should Sasuke ever run into Tobi/Mads. Hitting Sasuke with Tsukuyomi would have made both of these objectives infinitely easier. Shit, given Itachi's mastery over time and space in Tsukuyomi he probably could have even tricked Sasuke into thinking he killed him and then Itachi could have left and done whatever the fuck, including killing himself and making sure his body would not have been discovered. This actually makes too much sense but lets continue with the rational that Sasuke was allowed to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi for shits-and-giggles. In light of this BZ's explanation also seems a hell of a lot more sound. Kishi (via BZ) could have merely eluded to the strangeness of Sasuke being able to avoid being hit but instead offers a rational explanation. 



> I think it is pretty clear. Sasuke vs Itachi was a higher level battle(also fuckloads more relevant to the plot) than Jiraiya vs Pain. When Pain declared that he'd go and catch Kyuubi, BZ said "fuck that I'll go and see another fight." That solidifies the hype around Itachi vs Sasuke being on a completely different level than Jiraiya vs Pain.


lol really?



> And thats not the sole reason why I think Itachi had better portrayal.
> 
> This : Sasuke mentally reacts to V2 Ei.
> and this :
> ...


lol I don't doubt that Itachi is probably the most wanked character in the manga (not hating). However, that doesn't mean him > Kaguya; Current Naruto and Sasuke; et al. And not necessarily Jiraiya.



> Well you shouldn't feel bad. There are probably 2 or 3 members out there who still think that Jiraiya >= Itachi like you do.


Wat. I said Itachi >= Jiraiya, however because I'm not of the opinion that Itachi solos low diff GG, but rather believe it is a close comparison between two evenly matched combatants, you, and I assume other, Itachi fans have a problem with it.


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

Saying Jiraiya's performance was bad is trashing that man lol. At the end of the day he is still a Sannin, and one of Naruto's main role models. Itachi is just a really bad match up for him on alot of levels. It isn't that J-Man is tiers below Itachi (although he is not on the same tier.) it's just that Itachi in general tends to either have really easy/fast fights (similar to Minato) or long drawn out fights which will go to extreme diff. There are very few who cut the middle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> That's just straight-up disrespecting Jiraiya to think the performance wasn't impressive at all. Entities that can absorb ninjutsu, call forth Boss Summons, and soul rip is no joke and Jiraiya, via Ma and Pa, was able to one-shot them before being caught off guard and gang banged.


I told you what happened, its the author who is "disrespecting" Jiraiya if you think of it that way.
I didn't say they are a joke, but they aren't that strong either. Also you have to tone down the exeggeration, Human realm never attempted a soul rip, Animal realm didn't summon any "boss" summons after Jiraiya went into SM. 



> The comments about the "trump card" and "getting stomped" are interesting too because: one, Izanami and, two, a lot of guys get stomped by Pain, particularly with no knowledge.



Whats wrong with Izanami ? Every character has some sort of a trump card I am not against that, but in Jiraiya's case he had no idea he had that trump card.



> I make no sense and yet you come back at me with why would Itachi risk defeating Sasuke?


Yes, why would he risk defeating Sasuke when it obviously wasn't his goal.



> Itachi's goals for the most part were two-fold. Abstract Oro from Sasuke and impart Sasuke with a fail-safe Ama should Sasuke ever run into Tobi/Mads.


Abstract Oro and give him MS with his death. Fail safe was to keep Tobi away from him, it wasn't his main goal.


> Hitting Sasuke with Tsukuyomi would have made both of these objectives infinitely easier.


No it wouldn't, given KO'ing Sasuke wasn't Itachi's goal 



> Shit, given Itachi's mastery over time and space in Tsukuyomi he probably could have even tricked Sasuke into thinking he killed him and then Itachi could have left and done whatever the fuck, including killing himself and making sure his body would not have been discovered.


I am not sure if it would work like that. 
If tricking someone into killing them activated MS, then the history of Uchiha would be completely different wouldn't it ?
Besides, if Itachi hid his body, how would Sasuke get EMS ? Clearly Itachi wanted him to have his eyes.



> This actually makes too much sense


You were actually making more sense priorly, when you said Itachi was genuinely trying to defeat Sasuke.



> but lets continue with the rational that Sasuke was allowed to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi for shits-and-giggles.


Not shits and giggles. I am not saying that Sasuke didn't break Tsukiyomi, he did. Its just that, Itachi didn't hit him hard enough with it, giving him the *chance* to break it.



> In light of this BZ's explanation also seems a hell of a lot more sound. Kishi (via BZ) could have merely eluded to the strangeness of Sasuke being able to avoid being hit but instead offers a rational explanation.


Zetsu is a character in the manga. So like all other characters in the manga, he can be misinformed. He had no idea Itachi was sick, he had no idea Itachi was planning his death. *So that was the explanation he came up with given his limited knowledge*.
If someone is misinformed, how much can you trust their explanation ? 

Characters have made wrong claims before, on instances which they had no knowledge of, Zetsu in that particular instance was no exception.



> lol really?


Yes, really.




> lol I don't doubt that Itachi is probably the most wanked character in the manga (not hating). However, that doesn't mean him > Kaguya; Current Naruto and Sasuke; et al. And not necessarily Jiraiya.


And not necessarily Konohomaru.
I hope you get what I mean.



> Wat. I said Itachi >= Jiraiya, however because I'm not of the opinion that Itachi solos low diff GG, but rather believe it is a close comparison between two evenly matched combatants, you, and I assume other, Itachi fans have a problem with it.



I'd say depending on the circumstances, Itachi soloing Jiraiya can go from extremely low(no knowledge Jiraiya starts in base short distance) to extremely hard/can go eitherway(sick Itachi Jiraiya full knowledge starts in SM location and distance favoring Jiraiya).



Stαrkiller said:


> He started off with no intel at all, though. After the battle,* Pein admitted that if he prior knowledge of all six, Jiraiya would've won*. Now, obviously with trump cards like CST and CT, he can end Jiraiya but my take on it is that with prior knowledge on all six, Jiraiya would've at least been able to do better.



No.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I told you what happened, its the author who is "disrespecting" Jiraiya if you think of it that way.
> I didn't say they are a joke, but they aren't that strong either. Also you have to tone down the exeggeration, Human realm never attempted a soul rip, Animal realm didn't summon any "boss" summons after Jiraiya went into SM.


I don't think it's disrespecting period as clearly this was a noble accomplishment. If you disagree that's cool. And since when has PIS ever been as excuse for or against a character's performance? 




> Whats wrong with Izanami ? Every character has some sort of a trump card I am not against that, but in Jiraiya's case he had no idea he had that trump card.


Nvm. Thought you were saying something else.



> Yes, why would he risk defeating Sasuke when it obviously wasn't his goal.


He wouldn't 



> Abstract Oro and give him MS with his death. Fail safe was to keep Tobi away from him, it wasn't his main goal.


You might have to correct me but I don't recall imparting him with MS was ever part of his plan. That would require the truth about Itachi becoming known to Sasuke (triggering the awakening of MS) and as we see later on Itachi did not want this, at least initially.



> No it wouldn't, given KO'ing Sasuke wasn't Itachi's goal


It would have made his objectives infinitely easier for the reasons I already laid out.



> I am not sure if it would work like that.
> If tricking someone into killing them activated MS, then the history of Uchiha would be completely different wouldn't it ?


Not tricking him into killing him but thinking he killed him, although either would have worked. IIRC Tobirama tells us that it's the loss of a loved one or some shit that activates something in the brain that triggers the awakening of MS. 



> Besides, if Itachi hid his body, how would Sasuke get EMS ? *Clearly Itachi wanted him to have his eyes.*


Idk. He could have left a doppelganer behind with his real eyes, which seems like something Itachi would come up with, so that his real body wouldn't be used for some shit, like easy access to ET. Just throwing it out there.



> Not shits and giggles. I am not saying that Sasuke didn't break Tsukiyomi, he did. Its just that, Itachi didn't hit him hard enough with it, giving him the *chance* to break it.


And I've already said why the alternative makes more sense.



> Zetsu is a character in the manga. So like all other characters in the manga, he can be misinformed. He had no idea Itachi was sick, he had no idea Itachi was planning his death. *So that was the explanation he came up with given his limited knowledge*.
> If someone is misinformed, how much can you trust their explanation ?


That's fine if you feel that Itachi allowed Sasuke to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi on purpose. I'm suggesting otherwise.



> Yes, really.


Okay, then. That's something of a separate discussion so IDK if you care to discuss it here. 



> And not necessarily Konohomaru.
> I hope you get what I mean.


Itachi is > Konohomaura because of his hype _and _other factors. Itachi is below the characters I listed and possibly Jiraiya (even if I don't hold that opinion) despite Itachi's hype _and _because of other factors. 



> I'd say depending on the circumstances, Itachi soloing Jiraiya can go from extremely low(no knowledge Jiraiya starts in base short distance) to extremely hard/can go eitherway(sick Itachi Jiraiya full knowledge starts in SM location and distance favoring Jiraiya).


I agree except that I would amend Sick Itachi above to Healthy/Edo Itachi as I don't see difference in this match being about Itachi's ability to more freely use MS techs. It's worth noting that the distance in the OP is favorable to Jiraiya which was taken into consideration when I said it could go either way but did overall favor Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> > He wouldn't
> 
> 
> Itachi can:
> ...


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## Thunder (Jun 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @thunder
> 
> Tsuande isn't necessarily weaker then the other Sannin at all. Her being a medical ninja really doesn't account for much considering she incorporates her medical Ninjustu in battle( Byakago~ Sozo Saisei), has the ability to one shot Sussano, and sports a perfect stat in taijustu along with outrageous Durability.....
> 
> ...



I'd rather not turn this into Tsunade vs. Jiraiya / Orochimaru debate. That sort of discussion warrants its own thread, so I'll create the topic and respond to you there.


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Again, why is that relevant? Anyone who actually is going to take that one statement, made by a famed liar, as proof that Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya is deluded, especially with us having feats to back up our arguments. Anyone using that pathetic excuse for dialogue is only doing so because they can't form an argument based off of the displayed feats. If Itachi was being honest and believed what he was saying, we've seen enough from both to know that it isn't true. Turrin, Itachi can be wrong about something. I didn't buy Orochimaru being weaker than Itachi until we saw it, twice.
> 
> That statement shouldn't even be brought into discussion.


I'm sorry, but this is filled with many logical fallacies. 

First off it's moving the goal post. I was speaking towards the topic of the dialog. You talk about whether the dialog should be trusted, which has nothing to do with the topic of the dialog itself. Simply put whether you trust the dialog or not the topic is clearly Jiraiya. Let's accept that and move on from there.

Secondly the argument from Itachi-fans employs a logical fallacy right off the bat, that if someone has lied once, everything they've said is a lie - that's not a credible argument and never will be. Itachi-fans take this even further down the rabbit hole, by using this argument to justify an entirely fanfic scenario, where Itachi was lying to deceive Kisame. Finally even if the scenario itself is examined it makes no logical sense. Itachi has straight up told Kisame no need to rush because Kyuubi needs to be sealed last and Kisame accepted that and did not press the issue of capturing Kyuubi. So why would Itachi suddenly feel the need to make up some additional crazy lie, when Kisame was never gun hoe to begin with - like any bad fanfic it makes no sense when in context with the rest of the story.

Thirdly I don't rely on the statement at all. I was straight up discussing with you based on "feats" and characters attributes why I feel Sennin Modo Jiriaya >= Itachi. You decided to end that discussion. So don't now come back pages later and pretend like my argument rests solely on the statement; that is both disingenuous and attack a straw-man. Also it is disingenuous to say that everyone who is defending Jiriaya can not form an argument based on "feats". This is been discussed enough where many posters have argued for pages apon pages why Jiriaya can beat or draw with Itachi based on "feats". You may see it as Itachi has better feats, but clearly a vast majority of fans do not see it that way. This leads me to yet another fallacy you commit here where you say we've seen enough to know it isn't true as if it's a fact, when it is not. An instance where it's clear that one character is better than another would be something like Hashirama vs Jiriaya. However the author never gave Itachi such insane "feats" where it's clear that he's above Jiriaya, like in the above example. This can easily be proven by the fact that you don't see consistent 20 page threads where you have quality posters arguing Jiriaya beats Hashirama. In the case of Itachi, the author never gave Itachi "feats" that are so far above Jiriaya that it can be passed of as a fact, like your trying to do; accept it and keep that stuff out of your post, if you want others to take you seriously.

Fourthly, Itachi can be wrong, but it makes little sense that he would be. Itachi knows his capabilities  better than you or I, so he can't be wrong as far as that's concerned. In the case of Jiriaya, the most one could argue is Itachi was basing his opinion of Jiriaya, of Jiriaya's rep. However we are given no indication that Jiriaya's strength didn't live up to his rep; in-fact the manga directly states his strength did live up to his rep, after the Nagato fight. So how could Itachi possibly be wrong than? Was he just nonsensically assuming Jiriaya was vastly stronger than his rep indicated, for no reason - does that seem even remotely IC for Itachi. No it doesn't. Itachi does not have a tendancy to vastly overestimate people for no reason; if anything he has tendency to overestimate his own capabilities (he even admits that himself). So if you want to dissect the statement to the point of looking at how itachi's analysis could have been faulty; the only way it could have been faulty is Itachi overestimating himself and him actually being even less of a threat to Jiriaya than he thought he was. With that said I don't support that conclusion, but I'm just saying that is the only way Itachi analysis could be flawed and it actually making sense with his characterization and the story at large.

Fifthly. You not buying Orochimaru being weaker than Itachi until it was shown twice, is not a good argument to levi against people who support Itachi's statement. All that shows is that you choose to ignore one statement and were proven wrong, and now have decided to make the same mistake over-again, w/o learning anything from the first time you made this mistake. I on the other hand supported that statement that Itachi > Orochimaru, and had to deal with this same BS where Orochimaru-fans wrote fanfic scenario's about why Orochimaru was lying, until they were proven wrong, and subsequently many than started shipping Itachi and making the same mistake for the second time, writing their fanfic scenario's about why Itachi was lying.

 Only thing they had going for them this time is they got lucky enough Itachi/Jiriaya never fought, so they didn't get completely shut down this time. Though quite honestly I think the Kabuto fight did demonstrate why Jiriaya was a threat to Itachi, but I think there is just a-lot of denial going around; Sennin Mode abilities and Sound-Based Jutsu pressured the strongest Itachi we've seen yet heavily, yeah i'm sure another Sennin Modo/Sound based Jutsu user is not a threat to Itachi herp da derp. However it doesn't change how faulty the logic was back when people were employing it with Orochimaru and still is when employing it with Itachi, or the fact that they should have learned their lesson.  Another example is with 8th-Gate hype. Where people disregard that, got shut down, and yet still don't learn their lesson.  And by learn your lesson, I don't mean necessarily accepting Jiriaya >= Itachi based on the statement, but at least not writing fanfic to disregard the statement and being open to the possibility that it's true.  But I guess someone learning their lesson is too much to expect from Naruto-forums.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 27, 2014)

Akitō said:


> It's because we don't think that he was lying about Jiraiya's strength. Just because he's a good guy and a famed liar doesn't mean that he lied about literally everything. From the author's standpoint, I don't think it'd make much sense for Itachi to lie about something so specific when there were countless other options that Kishimoto could've explored to set up the same situation. The fact that Kisame didn't contest Itachi's claim immediately means that it clearly wasn't a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you completely skip the last few pages? Because that's the only explanation for you asking something that has such an obvious answer.




My problem with this is,  itachi beat oro pretty convincingly, oro is a sanin.

People generally view all sanin as equal,  we as the readers know a little better but from the characters in the manga standpoint they are viewed as equal. 



Why would itachi fear another sanin with back up when he beat one without back up?

It makes no sense it's not like he ever saw jiraiya fight and only made his statement based off jiraiyas rep.

can you answer that? Especially when people generally viewed oro as the genuis out of the sanin.


Imo oro's admission to not being able to beat itachi,  was the retcon for itachi's statement.



especially when back in part 1 sm didn't exist and Oro had edo tensei he was viewed as the stand out sanin


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> especially when back in part 1 sm didn't exist and Oro had edo tensei he was viewed as the stand out sanin


Sennin Modo was likely planned in the beginning of the manga. Their is conception art of Jiriaya in Sennin Modo that pre-dates DB1's release (which was mid-way through the CE arc).


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

Ok so according to the posters here our tierlist looks something like this.

Prime hiruzen > Itachi > = to Jiraiya (itachi was stated to be invincible) > 
Hashirama (who Itachi is a better shinobi than) > Minato (who stated Jiraiya was better than him) ?

Cause if this is what's going on then I'll gladly agree


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi used his strongest Tsukuyomi for whatever reason on Hebi Sasuke and the latter broke it, despite the circumstances of the fight an MS Sasuke being << Itachi in genjutsu?


BZ told us how we was able to break it and the circumstances under which it happened (e.g. Sasuke's eyes having more potential, etc.) corroborates this.



> Itachi wanted to put Sasuke through a tough fight, and have him "kill" Itachi at the end.


That's your interpretation. I think Itachi would have been quite content on accomplishing what he wanted to do without pushing his little bro to the brink of death, which btw he still could have done successfully with Tsukuyomi.



> This experience of finally avenging the Uchiha would have most likely awoken his powers, as it was Sasuke's life long goal. Unfortunately he immediately went into a coma, and then Tobi spilled the beans awakening it in another way.


My problem with this interpretation is the gap in between when Itachi dies in front of Sasuke and him awakening in Obito's cave or where-ever that was. If what you're saying were true then we didn't he awaken his MS immediately after Itachi died or as Obito was explaining everything to him? Instead he needs to think over what Obito told him before unlocking his MS. In every instance of an individual awakening MS that we have so far I believe each happened immediately following the traumatic event. Heck, there's even a slit second where Sasuke thinks Itachi is dead and declares "it's over" before Itachi busts out Susanoo and yet nothing.



> Ok, Kishi decided to write a different route. You act like what you think would have been easier for Itachi to do in any way makes the argument he was going all out bolstered. It doesn't.


No offense, but this is pretty funny considering we have BZ telling us how Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi and it makes sense why Itachi would want to paralyze Sasuke with it but instead this is written off as BZ not knowing what he's taking about.



> Extreme emotional turmoil does it, because the heart reflects the eyes. Itachi obviously wanted him to have MS, hence why he told him about needing the other MS. He specifically wanted sasuke to become stronger.


Itachi also was aware I assume of the link between Uchiha and losing a loved one and obtaining more powerful eyes which leads to darkness. Compound this with the idea that he also wanted Sasuke to use his eyes to obtain EMS which would further send him into a spiral and Itachi honestly is all over the place here.



> OK we can go back in many fights and dtermine what could have been done better none of this counters the evidence that Itachi's Tsukyomi wasn't his strongest, or that he didn't let Sasuke out.


There's nothing to suggest Itachi's Tsukuyomi wasn't legit and intended to paralyze Sasuke either way. My view is based mainly on Itachi's goals and how they could be obtained and BZ's comment.



> He did get hit by Tsuku.


I mean hit as in paralyzed. Sasuke didn't get "hit" in the sense that the bullet came at him but he dodged it skillfully.



> I lol'd. If I got Strategoob to dig up the Itachi hype post, I would dare you to bring me a character not named Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, RS (and his family) or Sasuke that has a better ratio of quality/quantity of feats/hype/portrayal.


I actually wouldn't mind reading that for my own personal knowledge but what this analysis translates to in regards to whose-stronger-than-who I imagine it quite debatable. And no offense to Strategoob but I also imagine there's a bit of a pro-Itachi flavor to it as well. 

Honestly feel free to respond but unless you come at me with something big that I overlooked or me you I don't see either of us as changing out minds here given the facts at hand.



Turrin said:


> Sennin Modo was likely planned in the beginning of the manga. Their is conception art of Jiriaya in Sennin Modo that pre-dates DB1's release (which was mid-way through the CE arc).


Yeah, like how there's subtle hints as well that Obito as Tobi was in the works as early as Ch. 16. No doubt Kishi writes a lot of this shit on the fly (we can see that bluntly now) but there's some stuff as well that seems to have been in his idea-box from an adolescent stage of the story, at least in blue-print form.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ok so according to the posters here our tierlist looks something like this.
> 
> Prime hiruzen > Itachi > = to Jiraiya (itachi was stated to be invincible) >
> Hashirama (who Itachi is a better shinobi than) > Minato (who stated Jiraiya was better than him) ?
> ...


All this shows is that you only care about your fav being overrated, and only have him as your fav because of his strength. Rather than actually determining what Kishi wants the take away to be.


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## Dr. White (Jun 28, 2014)

The Format said:


> > BZ told us how we was able to break it and the circumstances under which it happened (e.g. Sasuke's eyes having more potential, etc.) corroborates this.
> 
> 
> Yes and BZ at the time had no clue of Itachi's intent as well as the reader. But later evidence then completely flushes this down the toilet. If the fight ended and we never found out about Itachi, then yeah you'd have every right to be logically justified in believeing that. But BZ had no idea Itachi was throwing the fight and actually loved Sasuke. Until you reconcile this, you can use your arguments brah.
> ...


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sennin Modo was likely planned in the beginning of the manga. Their is conception art of Jiriaya in Sennin Modo that pre-dates DB1's release (which was mid-way through the CE arc).



Ok but that doesn't mean itachi knew jiraiya had it so I'm still kind of confused as to why itachi, would fear jiraiya.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Yes and BZ at the time had no clue of Itachi's intent as well as the reader. But later evidence then completely flushes this down the toilet. If the fight ended and we never found out about Itachi, then yeah you'd have every right to be logically justified in believeing that. But BZ had no idea Itachi was throwing the fight and actually loved Sasuke. Until you reconcile this, you can use your arguments brah.


And you're not privy to the inner thoughts of Kishi either so what's your point? Again, Kishi (via BZ) gave us a reasonable explanation on how Sasuke was able to avoid being hit and does not contradict Itachi's motives in the slightest. No reconciliation necessary.



> No it isn't it is cannon.


No, it's not. No where is it suggested that Itachi wanted to put Sasuke "through a tough fight" as your are suggesting. That would actually be a pretty foolish goal to have.



> Itachi didn't wanna kill him. This automatically means Itachi is not trying his hardest.


You're going to have to point to me where I suggested that Itachi was trying his hardest otherwise you're putting words in my mouth.



> Tobi states Itachi could have had him dead had he wanted.


That in no way contradicts the possibility that Itachi had to move on from Plan A (Tsukuyomi) to Plan B (everything that followed).



> We get Edo feats of Itachi's body reacting on base instincts and it blitzes Killer Bee twice, weaves in and out of KCM Naruto and Bee, and even genjutsu's a perfect jin before outshining the two .


This is another topic altogether so save it for another thread if you will.



> Why are you stuck back in 2008 concerning only Itachi?


Um, what? I only brought this up initially because of something Grimmjow responded to and you pressed it further. 



> He had no idea how to react as he collapssed from shock and chakra exhaustion. When he woke up Tobi was immediately in is face, he had time to take things in before being fed a huge plotwist which changed his views.


Excuse me if I don't buy this in the least when every other individual we've seen who has awoken MS did so immediately after their traumatic love loss. 



> -BZ didn't know about Itachi's intent. Hence why he also stated Itachi wasn't reating like he should and that he must have been gravely injured before the fight because his reflexes were off, all direct effects of Itachi not trying to kill Sasuke.


This is like several times now where you've taken something stated in the manga and taken it way out of context and tbh I'm starting to question whether you're trolling me at this point. 



> Itachi didn't want to paralyze Sasuke. He wanted to fight Sasuke as if he were really trying to kill him, and push him far enough so that he'd get stronger and let out oro. After this Itachi planned to die of chakra exhaustion after sealing Ama in Sasuke which he did. 1 shotting sasuke makes no fucking sense from your POV.


Let me put it like this--Itachi's goals:
- Abstracting Oro
- Helping Sasuke obtain MS
- Imparting him with a fail-safe Ama

All three could have been achieved infinitely easier with Tsukuyomi. Via Tsukuyomi could have forced Oro out, planted Ama in his eye to react to Obito's Sharingan, and manipulated Sasuke into thinking he killed him and what-ever else the hell he wanted. Then then could have set-up the crime scene however he wanted while Sasuke was unconscious. I can't put it any more plain than that.



> Dude, Itachi didn't want Sasuke to know he was taking it easy. He wanted the fight to drag on as if sasuke was actually beating him. Like this shit isn't any clearer.


Yeah, now I'm convinced you're trolling me. You somehow took what I said and interpreted it as Sasuke coming to the realization that Itachi was "taking it easy". If you're serious then agree to disagree man but I'm done with this convo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

The Format said:


> He wouldn't


Alright, so why would he hit with a full powered Tsukiyomi, unless he was 100% sure Sasuke was capable of breaking it ? 
If you think that is the case, then why do you think Sasuke "legitly" breaking Tsukiyomi is a downgrade to Itachi's performance ? If Itachi believed Sasuke would be able to break Tsukiyomi no matter what and still used it, then it means Itachi planned that too.

But I'll stick with the option that he didn't use a fullpowered Tsukiyomi and gave Sasuke a chance to break it which makes the most sense.



> You might have to correct me but I don't recall imparting him with MS was ever part of his plan. That would require the truth about Itachi becoming known to Sasuke (triggering the awakening of MS) and as we see later on Itachi did not want this, at least initially.


Dying @ Sasuke's hands would automatically awaken Sasuke's MS. Hearing the truth had nothing to do with it. 
Also Itachi knew to the extend that Sasuke'd implant his eyes, that was the reason of transfering Koto into Naruto.

Itachi predicted pretty far ahead.




> It would have made his objectives infinitely easier for the reasons I already laid out.


And I am asking one more time, how would knocking Sasuke out make his objectives infinitely easier ? Itachi wanted Sasuke to be contend with his life, and that would only be possible if Sasuke avenged the clan. So Sasuke would have to think that he beat Itachi fair and square.

Are we really debating this ? 



> Not tricking him into killing him but thinking he killed him, although either would have worked. IIRC Tobirama tells us that it's the loss of a loved one or some shit that activates something in the brain that triggers the awakening of MS.


And like I said, if making someone think you killed them through genjutsu wokred, then Uchiha wouldn't need to kill their loved ones like we were told. They would use genjutsu on each other and activate MS. 
The fact that MS was stated to be extremely rare should be enough to conclude that what you'r saying isn't an option.




> Idk. He could have left a doppelganer behind with his real eyes, which seems like something Itachi would come up with, so that his real body wouldn't be used for some shit, like easy access to ET. Just throwing it out there.


Tbh, this sounds like a terrilbe fanfiction. You'll understand what I mean if you find and read fanfiction stories about Naruto. So I am glad Kishimoto went with his own story.




> And I've already said why the alternative makes more sense.


Your alternative is 100x more complicated, harder to pull of, doesn't accomplish what Itachi was set out to do, and makes 0 sense.




> That's fine if you feel that Itachi allowed Sasuke to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi on purpose. I'm suggesting otherwise.


I don't get you mean by this but, what I am saying is, Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Sasuke, but he didn't push Sasuke as hard as he could which gave Sasuke the chance to break it.

Take his finger genjutsu on Naruto for example. Naruto was attempting to break it, but Itachi shut down that attempt by amping up his genjutsu/cockblocking Naruto with emotional distress. If he hadn't, Naruto would have broken it.
That shows the capability of letting his opponent break it or not is within Itachi's hands.



> Itachi is > Konohomaura because of his hype _and _other factors. Itachi is below the characters I listed and possibly Jiraiya (even if I don't hold that opinion) despite Itachi's hype _and _because of other factors.


So you didn't  get what I mean.

The difference between Kaguya and Jiraiya is probably bigger than the difference between Itachi and Konohomaru.
With that knowledge in mind, you can't apply that logic.
Kaguya doesn't need a better portrayal than Itachi for us to know that she is stronger. The auhtor pretty much made it clear by saying that she is the strongest character around.



> I agree except that I would amend Sick Itachi above to Healthy/Edo Itachi as I don't see difference in this match being about Itachi's ability to more freely use MS techs. It's worth noting that the distance in the OP is favorable to Jiraiya which was taken into consideration when I said it could go either way but did overall favor Itachi.



I wasn't particularly talking about the op. I was talking in general.

And sorry for ganging on you together with Dr.White, wasn't my intention.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Ok but that doesn't mean itachi knew jiraiya had it so I'm still kind of confused as to why itachi, would fear jiraiya.


Itachi knew all about Sennin Modo and Ryuuchidou. It's really not that inconceivable that  he'd know Jiriaya can use Sennin Modo. Itachi knew a great many things.


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## Icegaze (Jun 28, 2014)

To me a characters level or power should be determined on 2 things
their base level and how quickly or how easily they can get to max level 

base itachi vs base jiraiya is fairly even- by base level i mean what techniques they initial use in combat or how they fight before a transformation 
however jiraiya cannot enter Sm as quickly as itachi can use MS,

Same reason why onoki is well above jiraiya to me because jinton is his starter, same reason why minato is above itachi to me. Because hirashin is his go to technique in combat 

I do not see how this is even an argument when the only way its even debatable is if jiraiya can enter SM, 
jiraiya cannot stop itachi from entering MS, however the reverse is very likely. 

Nothing stops itachi from using amaterasu from the get to, granted jiraiya can seal it away its still damage done


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

@Icegaze

You are suffering from 5m syndrome.

5m syndrome - _An acute illness that effects NBD posts where they are unable to imagine any scenario other than one occurring at point-blank range, where usually, but not always one of characters start the match using thee most difficult jutsu for the other to avoid, while the other character stands there doing nothing_

Yes Jiriaya would loose in that circumstance. However your narrowing the fight down to a single possibility out of many and one that it very clearly quite beneficial to one character while greatly hurting the other. I could make up the same type of scenario.

Match starts at 2m Jiriaya uses FCD at the speed of S-T the moment the match begins killing Itachi instantly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> You are suffering from 5m syndrome.
> 
> ...



At 2 meters, Itachi cuts Jiraiya's head of before he can use the seals for a summoning jutsu. Or best case scenario Jiraiya stops the seals and tries to defend himself.

Assuming of course Itachi doesn't genjutsu GG before all that happens.


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## Dr. White (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Match starts at 2m Jiriaya uses FCD at the speed of S-T the moment the match begins killing Itachi instantly.



Itachi can dodge FCD because it still has to fall through the air via the speed of gravity. Considering Itachi's reactions are > Jiraiay's, and considering his jutsu speed is > Jiraiya's, also considering he can watch Jiraiya make hand seals/use chakra: I'm pretty sure he'd be better off then Jiraiya trying to avoid amaterasu.


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## Rocky (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Match starts at 2m Jiriaya uses FCD at the speed of S-T the moment the match begins killing Itachi instantly.



You say this alot.

I want to know why. Summoners must draw blood, form their hand sign, and place the summoning mark on the ground (or on whatever surface the summon occurs).

Only the actual transfer of the creature is instantaneous. The summoning process is not.


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## Bonly (Jun 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You say this alot.
> 
> I want to know why. *Summoners must draw blood, form their hand sign, and place the summoning mark on the ground (or on whatever surface the summon occurs).*
> 
> Only the actual transfer of the creature is instantaneous. The summoning process is not.



That's not always the case. Jiraiya managed to summon GamaKen by simply claping his hands in mid-air, no need to draw blood or place a mark on the ground.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You say this alot.
> 
> I want to know why. Summoners must draw blood, form their hand sign, and place the summoning mark on the ground (or on whatever surface the summon occurs).
> 
> Only the actual transfer of the creature is instantaneous. The summoning process is not.


Jiriaya can summon with a single hand-seal:
big AoE(though not deep enough to sink the Snake)

So whatever ever time it takes for Jiriaya to put together his index and middle finger, is the time it takes Jiriaya to summon. 



Dr. White said:


> Itachi can dodge FCD because it still has to fall through the air via the speed of gravity. Considering Itachi's reactions are > Jiraiay's, and considering his jutsu speed is > Jiraiya's, also considering he can watch Jiraiya make hand seals/use chakra: I'm pretty sure he'd be better off then Jiraiya trying to avoid amaterasu.


FCD can be used so the summon appears directly on-top of the target. The fall is used to built up momentum and force, however that is not necessary to murder Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 28, 2014)

Turin fancy reply but what stops itachi from actually starting with Amaterasu which is faster than anything jiraiya has ??
nothing other than you and your fanfic 
If we take into account that's jiraiya starts in SM nothing at all stops itachi from going all out. Would b foolish for itachi to attempt starting  Katon against SM jiraiya 

Same way current sasuke resorted to PS quite quickly against kaguya yet won't need to against raikage

If people are at the same level and have access to haxx techs they will start with that 

I don't see MS Kakashi just before he lost his MS fighting itachi and not starting with kamui

onoki always starts with Jinton however so it's entirely up to the user of a jutsu to choose when the jutsu will be used 

Amaterasu is most effectively used off the bat , itachi would know that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya can summon with a single hand-seal:
> big AoE(though not deep enough to sink the Snake)
> 
> So whatever ever time it takes for Jiriaya to put together his index and middle finger, is the time it takes Jiriaya to summon.
> ...



Itachi is faster than Jiraiya. Has sharingan, has faster handseal speed. 
Jiraiya ain't getting the jump on him @ close range.


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## Dr. White (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya can summon with a single hand-seal:
> talk
> 
> So whatever ever time it takes for Jiriaya to put together his index and middle finger, is the time it takes Jiriaya to summon.
> ...



You didn't answer anything I said. Why would Jiraiya get the jump on Itachi who moves fast enough to eclipse Bee's vision,with handseals faster than the sharingan can see, and the sharingan himself?


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Turin fancy reply but what stops itachi from actually starting with Amaterasu which is faster than anything jiraiya has ??


Amaterasu isn't faster than Jiriaya's Kuchiyose. Killer B had time to pull out a sword, throw it at Itachi, and it get deflected by ST, before Itachi could complete Amaterasu. Surely Jiriaya has enough time to move his index and middle fingers together, which is all it takes to FCD. 




Dr. White said:


> You didn't answer anything I said. Why would Jiraiya get the jump on Itachi who moves fast enough to eclipse Bee's vision,with handseals faster than the sharingan can see, and the sharingan himself?


I did answer it. FCD can be activated quicker than Itachi can do anything. All it requires is Jiriaya putting his two fingers together. Itachi is not some dam Juubi-Jin who can blitz someone of Jiriaya's stature before he can place those two fingers together.

Also by the by Dr. White I think your missing the point, as the example was not to speak towards a realistic example. It was to highlight how silly Icegaze's argument was.


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## Dr. White (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Amaterasu isn't faster than Jiriaya's Kuchiyose. Killer B had time to pull out a sword, throw it at Itachi, and it get deflected by ST, before Itachi could complete Amaterasu. Surely Jiriaya has enough time to move his index and middle fingers together, which is all it takes to FCD.


That isn't Ama's charge time though that is the crow summoning. Amaterasu was used after it and it soloed nagato and his summons.



> I did answer it. FCD can be activated quicker than Itachi can do anything. All it requires is Jiriaya putting his two fingers together. Itachi is not some dam Juubi-Jin who can blitz someone of Jiriaya's stature before he can place those two fingers together.


If Itachi is just doing nothing than sure. But Itachi who is faster, has faster handseals, sharingan pre-cog, and chakra sight not beat him out? Hebi Sasuke cleared a decent amount of distance to reach diedara who is on the same tier list as Jiraiya, and Itachi is much faster than Hebi Sauce. There is no reason Jiraiya has any advantage at short. He reacted to lightning and mukai tensei with Susano, a summon isn;t doing anything.


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## Thunder (Jun 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Summoners must draw blood, form their hand sign, and place the summoning mark on the ground (or on whatever surface the summon occurs).



That's not entirely true. Think back to Part I?Naruto was falling the first time he managed to summon Gamabunta. There are more recent examples of this too. We've seen Gai summon Ningama in the sky while he was pursuing Kisame on Turtle Island. There's also the cases where Sasuke summoned his bird in mid-air. He did so recently. I'm sure there are other such examples but those stuck out to me the most. 



> Only the actual transfer of the creature is instantaneous. The summoning process is not.



Correct. It all depends on the user.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2014)

@Grimmjow

Instead of going in circles how about I paint a scenario for you and see if it doesn't make more sense then. 

Itachi uses Tsukuyomi on Sasuke as he did in the canon. With this in mind we'll say Itachi's three goals are:
- Abstracting Oro
- Helping Sasuke obtain MS
- Imparting him with a fail-safe Ama

Instead of being able to resist, Sasuke is "hit" with Tsukuyomi and Itachi is now completely in control of what's going on. At this point Itachi works a scenario in Tsukuyomi where they have this long, dragged-out battle that could even have a similar result as what did happen with Itachi dying before Sasuke and Sasuke collapsing right afterwards. Of course Sasuke is completely unaware that this is all an illusion but he does collapse IRL form the pressure Itachi had put on him through Tsukuyomi. However keep in mind that Sasuke is still under the impression that Itachi is dead. At this point Itachi can turn-off the genjutsu and proceed to remove Oro's essence from Sasuke and implant an Ama in his eye. Then depending on how their fight played out in Tsukuyomi Itachi can rearrange the Uchiha hideout to match whatever significant damage occurred, if there was any. Finally, Itachi could kill himself and match it as he died in the illusion. When Sasuke regains consciousness he won't know any better. 

Now explain to me how--from Itachi's perspective--that doesn't make a  more a ton more sense than how it actually played out; with Sasuke avoiding being hit, and Itachi having to play an exceedingly risky game at that point. Suppose Sasuke doesn't have enough chakra left for an oral-rebirth? Or that Itachi's low chakra reserve and health finally get to him before he could actually draw Oro out? A shit more could have gone wrong with all the variables involved that some seem reluctant to acknowledge. Instead, Itachi, master of space-and-time within Tsukuyomi, could have painted a picture for Sasuke to believe and accomplished his other two objectives (abstracting Oro and implanting Ama in Sasuke's eye) without a hitch had thing gone according to Plan A.

Combine this with BZ's following statement and what we know about Sasuke's eyes and the most logical conclusion to me is that Itachi intended Sasuke to fall to Tsukuyomi. Before you get at me with BZ's wasn't aware of Itachi's intentions and what Obito said, consider that: Sasuke tells Obito he was almost killed more than once to which Obito replies that he would have been had Itachi been serious, but does not specify specific instances. I could even grant you that Tsukyomi may have been one of these instances where Itachi not being serious wasn't able to rev-up Tsukuyomi to the point needed to collapse Sasuke without risking killing him and because of this Sasuke was able to break through. Of course in the latter case I couldn't hold Sasuke breaking through Tsukuyomi against Itachi (which I assume was your overreaching goal ) but then again in my original post I omitted that possibility for the sake of a lack of extra argument but evidently it didn't work. But anyway, finally, I have a hard time believing that Kishi wrote BZ's dialogue with an explanation that actually makes sense given what we know about Sasuke and his eyes and the nature of Sasuke's character in general if it weren't worth something, when instead he could have continued pushing the Itachi-is-sick angle and BZ and WZ continuing to act dubious.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi is faster than Jiraiya. Has sharingan, has faster handseal speed.
> Jiraiya ain't getting the jump on him @ close range.



Prove Itachi is that fast. Jiraiya has Sage Mode.
Hand seal speed means nothing when Kakashi and Sasuke can deal with it well.

Jiraiya could get a jump on his equal @ close range if the situation was right.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi knew all about Sennin Modo and Ryuuchidou. It's really not that inconceivable that  he'd know Jiriaya can use Sennin Modo. Itachi knew a great many things.



I dont think its a stretch to say he maybe knew about sage mode, but i do believe its a stretch to say he knew about jiraiya having sage mode.


I feel itachi not wanting to beat jiraiya because he didn't want akatsuki to have control over the 9 tails, is alot more plausible then itachi having prior knowledge on jiraiya when the author didn't give us any indication that itachi somehow saw jiraiya fight.


The only thing the author showed us that we can make a speculation on is, itachi was a good guy and itachi was able to beat another sanin but somehow he feared jiraiya and he had back up?

i think the fact that the author revealing itachi was above oro after the jiraiya encounter is also further proof that it was meant to retcon itachi's statement about jiraiya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Prove Itachi is that fast. Jiraiya has Sage Mode.


Jiraiya ends up like this. fire, fire everywhere



> Hand seal speed means nothing when Kakashi and Sasuke can deal with it well.


They are both as fast as/faster than Jiraiya and both of them have the sharingan.



> Jiraiya could get a jump on his equal @ close range if the situation was right.



Yeah, maybe like Itachi had his back turned on Jiraiya and was dealing with someone else 

I am pretty sure Konohomaru could get a jump on Nagato if the *situation was right*, like if Nagato was taking a shit and Konohomaru was already henge'd into toilet paper.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

The Format said:


> @Grimmjow
> 
> Instead of going in circles how about I paint a scenario for you and see if it doesn't make more sense then.
> 
> ...



I saw the bolded part when I was skimming through your and stopped reading, no offense bro.

You are simply in denial of what was directly told to us in the manga. Even after everything we learned about Itachi, if you still think that he was geniunely trying to defeat Sasuke, then I am pretty sure nothing I'll say @ this point can change your mind. I am not more credible than the author of the manga afterall.

I also explained in my previous post how Zetsu's observation was flawed considering he was trying to interpret the whole situation as he saw it. He had no idea that Itachi was purposefully throwing the fight and never inteded to win in the first place.

I'll just leave this : "But this guy... killed zabuza...
Hoping that at least you can come to an agreement that the characters can be misinformed and not every single word that comes out of their mouth is the reflection of reality.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya ends up like this. 5 meters



If Jiraiya is in Izanami. 



> They are both as fast as/faster than Jiraiya and both of them have the sharingan.



If you can prove that, we can go somewhere with this.



> Yeah, maybe like Itachi had his back turned on Jiraiya and was dealing with someone else
> 
> I am pretty sure Konohomaru could get a jump on Nagato if the *situation was right*, like if Nagato was taking a shit and Konohomaru was already henge'd into toilet paper.



Nagato isn't Konohamaru's equal. Jiraiya = Itachi as per Itachi. That's the manga fact you can't ignore. Itachi did run away from Jiraiya, after all.


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I dont think its a stretch to say he maybe knew about sage mode, but i do believe its a stretch to say he knew about jiraiya having sage mode.


If  the argument is that Itachi can't put two and two together when the dude is famed as Gama-Sennin, I never want to see someone argue Itachi is intelligent ever again. And this is assuming he didn't just outright have knowledge on Jiriaya having Sennin Modo, which is very plausible given Itachi's detailed knowledge on everything else in the Shinobi world and Sennin Modo specifically.



> I feel itachi not wanting to beat jiraiya because he didn't want akatsuki to have control over the 9 tails, is alot more plausible then itachi having prior knowledge on jiraiya when the author didn't give us any indication that itachi somehow saw jiraiya fight.
> 
> 
> The only thing the author showed us that we can make a speculation on is, itachi was a good guy and itachi was able to beat another sanin but somehow he feared jiraiya and he had back up?
> .


I've already covered this, see my previous posts in this thread.



> i think the fact that the author revealing itachi was above oro after the jiraiya encounter is also further proof that it was meant to retcon itachi's statement about jiraiya


Kishi revealed Itachi > Orochimaru before the statement about Jiriaya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 28, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Jiraiya is in Izanami.


I was referring to Itachi dominating a perfect sage in jutsu execution speed. 



> If you can prove that, we can go somewhere with this.


Databook statistics and feats. Both Kakashi and Sasuke have better speed feats than Jiraiya.

What are Jiriaya's speed feats again ? 



> Nagato isn't Konohamaru's equal. Jiraiya = Itachi as per Itachi. That's the manga fact you can't ignore. Itachi did run away from Jiraiya, after all.


Konohomaru was able to defeat Pain. I am pretty sure thats what the author intended us to believe 



Turrin said:


> Kishi revealed Itachi > Orochimaru before the statement about Jiriaya.



Then he revealed Orochimaru > Jiraiya.
He changed his mind I guess


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then he revealed Orochimaru > Jiraiya.
> He changed his mind I guess


Than he revealed  Ambush-Squad > Edo Deidara + Sasori + Shin > Deidara > Itachi, because the boasts of cocky villainous characters should be taken as irrefutable proof. After-all Deidara clearly thought he was stronger than Itachi, and he was defeated by the ambush squad in his strongest form w/ back up.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are simply in denial of what was directly told to us in the manga. Even after everything we learned about Itachi, if you still think that he was geniunely trying to defeat Sasuke, then I am pretty sure nothing I'll say @ this point can change your mind. I am not more credible than the author of the manga afterall.


Nah, not trying to genuinely beat him. When I say I say he intended for Sasuke to fall to Tsukuyomi I mean play out the scenario I described (or something similar) and rendering him unconsciousness which would allow him to do the stuff I listed above.



> I also explained in my previous post how Zetsu's observation was flawed considering he was trying to interpret the whole situation as he saw it. He had no idea that Itachi was purposefully throwing the fight and never inteded to win in the first place.


This strikes me as beyond odd (and frankly almost unbelievable) when Kishi could have opted to rationalize it away with Itachi's sickness but choose not to despite BZ already showing confusion at Itachi coughing up blood and shit. Can you explain to me why this instance happens to be different without writing it of as "how the fuck should I know" when Kishi deliberately wrote it the way he did for a reason?



> I'll just leave this : "But this guy... killed zabuza...
> Hoping that at least you can come to an agreement that the characters can be misinformed and not every single word that comes out of their mouth is the reflection of reality.


Sure. I'm also willing to believe Obito for misinformed in his conversation with Sasuke as well


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If  the argument is that Itachi can't put two and two together when the dude is famed as Gama-Sennin, I never want to see someone argue Itachi is intelligent ever again. And this is assuming he didn't just outright have knowledge on Jiriaya having Sennin Modo, which is very plausible given Itachi's detailed knowledge on everything else in the Shinobi world and Sennin Modo specifically.
> 
> 
> I've already covered this, see my previous posts in this thread.
> ...



you have a scan of jiraiya being famed by that name? i know he introduced himself as that a few times around konoha shinobi but i dont remember it being public knowlege



the events took place before but kishi revealed it to us after if i remember correctly


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> you have a scan of jiraiya being famed by that name? i know he introduced himself as that a few times around konoha shinobi but i dont remember it being public knowlege


Honestly what is the point of giving Jiriaya a title if he's not famous for that title? Also if he introduces himself as Gama-Sennin, chances are Itachi has head the title before, as he too was a Konoha Shinobi. And that's another thing people like Shikaku were aware of Sennin Modo. So it's not like the more knowledgable members of Konoha were unaware of this. Simply put there is more than enough here where it plausible Itachi was aware of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo and you certainly can't make a blanket statement like he certainly didn't know about it.

Beyond that I really doubt Kishi really even cares whether it's plausible or not that Itachi knew of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo. Kishi will just go with whatever he feels moves the plot forward in an interesting direction. It's the same thing with Hashirama commenting on Tsunade's strength compared to Sakura's, there is no way he's in a position to have that knowledge, but Kishi didn't give a dam, because he want that comparison to be made. In this instance Kishi wanted Itachi and Jiriaya to be compared because they were the top dogs around in P1, so he probably didn't care if it made sense whether Itachi knew about Sennin Modo or not.



> e events took place before but kishi revealed it to us after if i remember correctly


No Orochimaru states Itachi is stronger than him several chapters before Itachi makes his statement about Jiriaya. Re-read the chapters leading up to Itachi's statement about Jiriaya if you don't believe me.


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## trance (Jun 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.



Actually, yes. He states it right here. [x]

Even if you don't think he means Jiraiya would've won, that means he was referring a stalemate.

Take your pick.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2014)

The Format said:


> Nah, not trying to genuinely beat him. When I say I say he intended for Sasuke to fall to Tsukuyomi I mean play out the scenario I described (or something similar) and rendering him unconsciousness which would allow him to do the stuff I listed above.



I already covered in my previous post why knocking Sasuke out was not an option. Feel free to read that again.




> This strikes me as beyond odd (and frankly almost unbelievable) when Kishi could have opted to rationalize it away with Itachi's sickness but choose not to despite BZ already showing confusion at Itachi coughing up blood and shit. Can you explain to me why this instance happens to be different without writing it of as "how the fuck should I know" when Kishi deliberately wrote it the way he did for a reason?


Itachi hadn't started coughing blood till his 2nd Amaterasu, so Zetsu wasn't aware of anything @ that point.
Zetsu became aware that things weren't right by the end of the fight and thought Itachi might have been severely wounded and Obito clarified that Itachi was holding back.

Isn't it odd that when Sasuke says that "he tried to kill me with sharingan" we are shown panels of both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu
and Obito says "It was a part of his plan, he was trying to drive you into the corner."

So your "Itachi could have knocked out sasuke and then did those things" argument goes down the drain as well.



> Sure. I'm also willing to believe Obito for misinformed in his conversation with Sasuke as well


Do you have any evidence for this ? 

Because as far as I know, Sasuke confirmed what Danzo and Obito told him about Itachi were true after hearing it from Hiruzen once more.



Stαrkiller said:


> Actually, yes. He states it right here. [x]
> 
> Even if you don't think he means Jiraiya would've won, that means he was referring a stalemate.
> 
> Take your pick.



Again no.

I am going to keep saying no, until you figure it out yourself.

edit : 



Turrin said:


> Than he revealed  Ambush-Squad > Edo Deidara + Sasori + Shin > Deidara > Itachi, because the boasts of cocky villainous characters should be taken as irrefutable proof. After-all Deidara clearly thought he was stronger than Itachi, and he was defeated by the ambush squad in his strongest form w/ back up.



Deidara never said he was stronger than Itachi. He said he created C4 in order to kill Itachi. 
And immediately after he lost to Sasuke. So no.

Orochimaru expressed a gap in their abilities, apparently it existed even long before, while he was winning the fight.

So no, try again


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## trance (Jun 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again no.
> 
> I am going to keep saying no, until you figure it out yourself.



Denying direct evidence is no way to debate.

Pein admits he "never" would've won.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Denying direct evidence is no way to debate.
> 
> Pein admits he "never" would've won.



He says " we might not have won or could not have won", indicating that Jiraiya'd have a *chance *to beat him. 

Second off, the most important part, his secret refers to "Nagato", so it doesn't have anything to do with the 6 paths and their abilities.

That statement doesn't show combat superiority in any way or form. Jiraiya admitted the would lose against 3 weaker bodies in direct combat, what makes you think he'd stand a chance against all 6 of them ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was referring to Itachi dominating a perfect sage in jutsu execution speed.



Within Genjutsu... outside Genjutsu he got poked like a microwave meal, stabbed and bisected. Without Genjutsu he needed a superior straight tomoe Uchiha to help him. 



> Databook statistics and feats. Both Kakashi and Sasuke have better speed feats than Jiraiya.
> 
> What are Jiriaya's speed feats again ?



But prove they're faster than Jiraiya. You simply saying it is meaningless.

Also tell me how the difference in statistics (also show me that you understand the criteria for the stats) means anything.



> Konohomaru was able to defeat Pain. I am pretty sure thats what the author intended us to believe



Konohamaru didn't defeat Pain. Unless you have evidence Naraka was actually down.



> Then he revealed Orochimaru > Jiraiya.
> He changed his mind I guess



That's good for Orochimaru vs Jiraiya.

However Itachi ran away from Jiraiya and called him his equal. You're not adequately addressing this point.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly what is the point of giving Jiriaya a title if he's not famous for that title? Also if he introduces himself as Gama-Sennin, chances are Itachi has head the title before, as he too was a Konoha Shinobi. And that's another thing people like Shikaku were aware of Sennin Modo. So it's not like the more knowledgable members of Konoha were unaware of this. Simply put there is more than enough here where it plausible Itachi was aware of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo and you certainly can't make a blanket statement like he certainly didn't know about it.
> 
> Beyond that I really doubt Kishi really even cares whether it's plausible or not that Itachi knew of Jiriaya's Sennin Modo. Kishi will just go with whatever he feels moves the plot forward in an interesting direction. It's the same thing with Hashirama commenting on Tsunade's strength compared to Sakura's, there is no way he's in a position to have that knowledge, but Kishi didn't give a dam, because he want that comparison to be made. In this instance Kishi wanted Itachi and Jiriaya to be compared because they were the top dogs around in P1, so he probably didn't care if it made sense whether Itachi knew about Sennin Modo or not.
> 
> ...




Jiraiya normally only uses the tile when he introduces himself and even then he doesn't use it all the time, i doubt that everyone in konoha knows about it. He's much more famed for being a sanin then a toad senin.
the sanin barley stayed in the village, itachi was with the uchiha clan separated from the village for the most part and when he wasn't he was in anbu close to danzo and the third, i don't think its a stretch to say itachi never heard the name before as jiraiya spent a good amount of time in hidden rain village, tracking orochimaru, and akatsuki.




I concede the fact it happened before i actually went back and reread that entire arc.






Speaking on what kishi was trying to portray i have come to this conclusion.
Jiraiya didn't introduce himself as the toad senin to kisame and itachi, before kisame and itachi engaged naruto and jiraiya, kisame says one of the three legendary ninja, he may be a match for even you and me, itachi corrects kisame and states we can at best stale mate with him.

jiraiya comes into the hotel and kisame again says jiraiya one of the three legendary ninja, the entire assumption for jiraiya's strength seem to be on the fact that he was a sanin do you atleast agree with this?




then we have to agree kishi, wasn't trying to foreshadow itachi had any knowledge on senin mode,  further more if he was so worried about senin mode why would he use a tsukiyomi on sasuke and over work his sharingon on a already beaten sasuke when they had a opponent that can solo both him and kisame standing right behind him?




He also had options to use amatarasu and susano on jiraiya but he chose to runaway? even after jiraiya summoned the frog you see him holding sasuke telling him he doesn't have enough hatred yet.
This doesnt seem IC for itachi against a opponent he feels is superior, against nagato he wasted no time summoned susano and used totsuka with in the dust cloud and took every possible advantage against the stronger opponent.



Then we have orochimaru, willing to take on both sanin, with no arms,even  after jiraiye is healed from the effects of the drug, he stated its troublesome to take both of them on at the same time yet orochimaru states he cant beat itachi and he wont even attempt to take him on?


Maybe if itachi made that statement referring to him and jiraiya in a one on one match it would make  a little more sense, but the fact that he was speaking him, and kisame vs jiraiya i feel like it was def just a excuse to not capture naruto thats the only logical thing that makes sense, especially when we see kisames and itachi's true strength in part 2


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Jiraiya normally only uses the tile when he introduces himself and even then he doesn't use it all the time, i doubt that everyone in konoha knows about it. He's much more famed for being a sanin then a toad senin.
> the sanin barley stayed in the village, itachi was with the uchiha clan separated from the village for the most part and when he wasn't he was in anbu close to danzo and the third, i don't think its a stretch to say itachi never heard the name before as jiraiya spent a good amount of time in hidden rain village, tracking orochimaru, and akatsuki.


Look at who you connected Itachi with (Hiruzen), that only makes the case stronger that he knew of Jiriaya's title and another source he could have learned about Jiriaya's Sennin Modo from. 

Simply put he could have heard Jiriaya's title or about Jiriya's Sennin Modo during the time he spent in Konoha, from Hiruzen, or from Orochimaru. All of which are very plausible.




> Speaking on what kishi was trying to portray i have come to this conclusion.
> Jiraiya didn't introduce himself as the toad senin to kisame and itachi, before kisame and itachi engaged naruto and jiraiya, kisame says one of the three legendary ninja, he may be a match for even you and me, itachi corrects kisame and states we can at best stale mate with him.
> 
> jiraiya comes into the hotel and kisame again says jiraiya one of the three legendary ninja, the entire assumption for jiraiya's strength seem to be on the fact that he was a sanin do you atleast agree with this?


No I cannot. The way the dialog is structured doesn't coincide with this at all. Itachi and Kisame discuss Jiriaya's strength. The way it went is such:

Kisame says Jiriaya is out of his league, but he believes somehow Itachi could take him down. 

Itachi than corrects Kisame saying really he'd be lucky if he forced a draw

Kisame than responds, well his (Jiriaya's) fame dwarfs theirs after-all.


Basically Kisame initially thought Itachi was a bit stronger than Jiriaya
Itachi disagrees and we do not know what Itachi's reasoning is
Kisame is the one that than brings up  Jiriaya being a Legendary Sannin

So in essence Kisame is the only one who is shown to be basing his calculations on Jiriaya's rep as a Legendary Sannin. While we do not know what Itachi is basing his calculations on.



> hen we have to agree kishi, wasn't trying to foreshadow itachi had any knowledge on senin mode


Actually the context of the manga does beg readers to speculate on what Jiriaya has beyond simply being a Legendary Sannin.

The arc starts out with Orochimaru, a Legendary Sannin admitting inferiority to Itachi.
Kisame's opinion is also in line with this. A Legendary Sannin is tough, but Itachi is still somehow capable of beating one

However than we have Itachi coming to the opposite conclusion that he'd be lucky to draw with Jiriaya.

So the arc sets up Itachi > a Legendary Sannin, at least by a little bit. But than when it comes to Jiriaya specifically, Itachis is stated to be <= to. It's very obvious that Kishimoto was hinting that there is more to Jiriaya than simply being a Legendary Sannin. Whether this refers to Sennin Modo or not is speculation, but it is the one big thing that Jiriaya does have over the other two Sannin, and is something Itachi is later shown to be familiar with; so chances are that was the extra something special Jiriaya had going for him that made him go from losing to Itachi to winning or at least drawing with him.



> further more if he was so worried about senin mode why would he use a tsukiyomi on sasuke and over work his sharingon on a already beaten sasuke when they had a opponent that can solo both him and kisame standing right behind him?


He had no intention to engage Jiriaya. That's why the whole thing with the woman was set up to lure  Jiriaya away and why they retreated after Jiriaya showed up. 



> He also had options to use amatarasu and susano on jiraiya but he chose to runaway? even after jiraiya summoned the frog you see him holding sasuke telling him he doesn't have enough hatred yet.
> This doesnt seem IC for itachi against a opponent he feels is superior, against nagato he wasted no time summoned susano and used totsuka with in the dust cloud and took every possible advantage against the stronger opponent.


the argument for why characters don't use certain jutsu against enemies is one that can be extended to every confrontation in the manga. Characters rarely use their Jutsu in the most effective way possible, period. So that is not a good argument.



> hen we have orochimaru, willing to take on both sanin, with no arms,even after jiraiye is healed from the effects of the drug, he stated its troublesome to take both of them on at the same time yet orochimaru states he cant beat itachi and he wont even attempt to take him on?


Jiriaya was not healed from the poison he suffered from it throughout. All the Sannin were handicapped there and Orochimaru had the help of Kabuto. Yet even still he was WTFPWN, once he was up against 2 Sannin at once. 

Basically it's really not a good battle to base any conclusions on as we do not know who was handicapped more. Drugged Jiriaya or Armless Orochimaru (w/ Kabuto to summon for him). 



> Maybe if itachi made that statement referring to him and jiraiya in a one on one match it would make a little more sense, but the fact that he was speaking him, and kisame vs jiraiya i feel like it was def just a excuse to not capture naruto thats the only logical thing that makes sense, especially when we see kisames and itachi's true strength in part 2


Kisame would have been irrelevant in a match between Jiriaya and Itachi. Think about it. Itachi states Kisame would struggle with P1 Kakashi. P1 Kakashi was shitting his pants at the thought of fighting Orochimaru. And when Jiriaya actually did use a Jutsu Kisame was helpless against it and had to rely on Itachi to save his ass.

Kisame became stronger over time. His performance against Killer-B or Gai should not be taken as representative of his P1 abilities. Unless your telling me the Kisame that fought those 2 would struggle against P1 Kakashi.

Kishi clearly does not intend for us to see Kisame's performance years later and after absorbing tons of Bijuu-Chakra, than go back to the P1 statements and say because of that these statements are wrong.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2014)

@Thunder

When I said "surface" I was including midair. I should've worded it better.


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## Dr. White (Jun 29, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Denying direct evidence is no way to debate.
> 
> Pein admits he "never" would've won.



We also don't know if he meant in that scenario.
A. Where Jiraiya would have full knowledge vs Animal, then Animal  Preta + Human, then all 6. Jiraiya could have beaten 3 and faced the other 3.

B. Also he was talking about in Ama where he couldn't use ST or CT.

Although yeah SM Jiraiya with full knowledge, and them having none results in him winning prob high-extreme diff  7/10 times.


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi hadn't started coughing blood till his 2nd Amaterasu, so Zetsu wasn't aware of anything @ that point.


I checked and you're that correct BZ doesn't first comment of the strangeness of Itachi's performance until Itachi gets hit int he leg with the piece of the shuriken. However, my point still stands. Instead of chalking Sasuke breaking through Tsukuyomi up to some kind of illness or strange circumstances BZ isn't surprised at all and instead offers up a rationale explanation on how it happened. If Kishi wanted us to believe there was something off about Sasuke being able to break through the strongest genjutsu in the manga up til that point (I don't believe Koto had been introduced yet) I think he would have had BZ show some kind of surprise as WZ did. 



> Zetsu became aware that things weren't right by the end of the fight and thought Itachi might have been severely wounded and Obito clarified that Itachi was holding back.


Actually it wasn't until Itachi's reflexes seemed off (failing to evade the shuriken blade) that BZ feels the need to comment on Itachi's performance at all. Also, Obito says Itachi was holding back (no questioning this) but doesn't specify in what ways. Holding back Susanoo until the very end would satisfy that statement. And before that, holding off Ama until later in fight.  



> Isn't it odd that when Sasuke says that "he tried to kill me with sharingan" we are shown panels of both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu
> and Obito says "It was a part of his plan, he was trying to drive you into the corner."
> 
> So your "Itachi could have knocked out sasuke and then did those things" argument goes down the drain as well.


Tbh throughout this entire conversation as I re-read it Obito appears to be laying it on particularly thick in order to really reach Sasuke's emotions. I'm not questioning that Itachi had no interest in winning and it was all for Sasuke benefit, but I do have to question the accuracy of what Obito tells Sasuke when, one, in the very same conversation he outright lies (i.e. claiming the Kyuubi incident was a freak accident, also inflaming Sasuke's emotions) and, two, Itachi never corroborates what Obito says to the extent that he said it; merely that the fight was a sham and to his (Sasuke's) benefit.  



> Do you have any evidence for this ?
> 
> Because as far as I know, Sasuke confirmed what Danzo and Obito told him about Itachi were true after hearing it from Hiruzen once more.


Just as it was confirmed Sasuke's eyes were "special" and would surpass Itachi's. There really isn't any legit reason why Sasuke legit breaking through and the fight being a sham can't co-exist and IMO fit together nicely, all things taken into consideration.


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## Dr. White (Jun 29, 2014)

The Format said:


> I checked and you're that correct BZ doesn't first comment of the strangeness of Itachi's performance until Itachi gets hit int he leg with the piece of the shuriken.


-You also have them in disbelief at the end of the fight.

-Then we have both Zetsu breaking down why Itachi may have lost.



> However, my point still stands. Instead of chalking Sasuke breaking through Tsukuyomi up to some kind of illness or strange circumstances BZ isn't surprised at all and instead offers up a rationale explanation on how it happened.


No it doesn't. You don't understand how Tsukuyomi works, or the context probably. Tsukuyomi used offensively completely breaks the opponents spirit by torturing them in the realm which their body actually feels (it can also be used emotionally). For Itachi to have done that to sasuke may have brought Orochimaru out, but it would have left Sasuke in a nigh coma (as it did to kakashi even when Itachi was holding back the magnitude of the illusion), which isn't what Itachi wanted. He wanted Sasuke to think he vanquieshed Itachi on his own (hence why Sasuke smiled before fainting, and has such a hard time believing Itachi threw the fight afterwards.). It would have atleast taken a day or two for Sasuke to recover, was Itachi suppossed to just redo everything after? That is ridiculous to think.
Itachi essentially set up a play, in which sasuke though valiant was about to lose, until Oro came out (which completed one of Itachi's main objectives) and was vanquieshed leaving sasuke to win only by Itachi dying andhaving his last motion be poking sasuke's head (show him one last nod of affection) which also sealed his power, and Amaterasu inside of him.



> If Kishi wanted us to believe there was something off about Sasuke being able to break through the strongest genjutsu in the manga up til that point (I don't believe Koto had been introduced yet) I think he would have had BZ show some kind of surprise as WZ did.


It would make no sense for BZ to explain Itachi was holding back. He like the audience at the time has no idea of Itachi's intentions so of course he is going to explain from his most logical point of view what he thought happened. 

His explanation was proven directly wrong by the manga. Sasuke even with EMS is no where near Itachi's level of genjutsu, Danzo commented that his MS genjutsu was <<< Itachi's as well, Sasuke still hasn't shown Tsukuyomi use.

So were are to assume Hebi sacue 3 tomoe > Itachi MS? But MS Sasuke genjutsu < MS Itachi genjutsu?

In a direct comparison Itachi's 3 tomoe gave Bee more trouble, than sasuke MS base genjutsu. All the evidence points to Itachi letting him break it, or using an extremely weak version to make Sasuke think he broke a killing intent Tsukuyomi.



> Actually it wasn't until Itachi's reflexes seemed off (failing to evade the shuriken blade) that BZ feels the need to comment on Itachi's performance at all. Also, Obito says Itachi was holding back (no questioning this) but doesn't specify in what ways. Holding back Susanoo until the very end would satisfy that statement. And before that, holding off Ama until later in fight.


Once again I heavily disagree. First tobi stated if Itachi wanted him dead, he would have been dead, indicating Itachi could have certainly killed Sasuke had he desired. Sasuke puzzled claims in his defense that Itachi used MS on him, indicating killing intent. To which tobi states were only used to draw out Oro's power. We get two backshots on the panel of Itachi using MS on Sasuke. Itachi used Ama on the Oro wing (which he knew from a prior katon Sasuke could use for expendable defense.), and Tsukyomi to rile him up. This is clearly what the author is intending bro.




> Tbh throughout this entire conversation as I re-read it Obito appears to be laying it on particularly thick in order to really reach Sasuke's emotions. I'm not questioning that Itachi had no interest in winning and it was all for Sasuke benefit, but I do have to question the accuracy of what Obito tells Sasuke when, one, in the very same conversation he outright lies (i.e. claiming the Kyuubi incident was a freak accident, also inflaming Sasuke's emotions) and, two, Itachi never corroborates what Obito says to the extent that he said it; merely that the fight was a sham and to his (Sasuke's) benefit.


Obito didn't care about his identity at that point hence the reoccuring theme of him being the personified "idea of Madara". Obito would have told anyone he was Madara like he did vs the Gokage at the summit. Does that mean he was lying about the moon's eye plan and everything else? No. 

He was clearly giving sasuke the after fight analysis which boiled down to -Itachi was good and sacrificed himself for Konoha.

He planned your life and kept you safe from me and Danzo.

He took it easy on you and let you win, and could have killed you. He only used MS to draw out Orochimaru.

Please tell me what about the cannon you are not understanding. (I'm asking sincerely.)




> Just as it was confirmed Sasuke's eyes were "special" and would surpass Itachi's. There really isn't any legit reason why Sasuke legit breaking through and the fight being a sham can't co-exist and IMO fit together nicely, all things taken into consideration.


Sasuke's eye are special because he is Indra's incarnation but he still has to level up. His genjutsu with MS was < Itachi's via hype, portrayal, and feats. This along with the fact that Itachi didn't want Sasuke to know he was throwing the fight (he wanted sasuke to be the avenger), along with Itachi cannonically holding back his full Tsukuyomi potential in the past (vs Kakashi which still knocked him out for several days, something that would have been pointless vs Sasuke) lead us to logically deduce that Sasuke didn't really break a strong Tsukuyomi from Itachi.

Ask for panels or DB evidence if you need it.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Look at who you connected Itachi with (Hiruzen), that only makes the case stronger that he knew of Jiriaya's title and another source he could have learned about Jiriaya's Sennin Modo from.



possible but not very plausible, itachi became closer to hiruzen during the time of the uchiha, massacre but i doubt hiruzen would just sit down and discuss jiraiya's abilities with itachi, why would he? especially when they had more important matters at hand like preventing a war.

Orochimaru was also hiruzen's favorite, so i believe if hiruzen would bring anybody up more then likely it would be orochimaru.



Turrin said:


> Simply put he could have heard Jiriaya's title or about Jiriya's Sennin Modo during the time he spent in Konoha, from Hiruzen, or from Orochimaru. All of which are very plausible.



possible but not plausible.




Turrin said:


> No I cannot. The way the dialog is structured doesn't coincide with this at all. Itachi and Kisame discuss Jiriaya's strength. The way it went is such:
> 
> Kisame says Jiriaya is out of his league, but he believes somehow Itachi could take him down.
> 
> ...



If itachi planned on approaching jiraiya as a legit enemy it would literally make no sense for him to hold potential life saving information from kisame why would he?

 further more why would the author not make a bigger deal out of itachi's knowledge to not engage jiraiya before hand? even 200 chapters later the author does not clarify this, the only thing he does clarify that itachi was really working for the leaf.

if itachi was truly a leaf shinobi thats the only reason to me why it would make sense he would want to avoid a confrontation with jiraiya, is killing jiraiya there would be no excuse not to bring naruto back to akatasuki.

Further more we have itachi directly holding back by not using amatarasu offensively despite knowing killing the summoner would dispel the technique anyway or susano, we have feats of itachi being a bit stronger then jiraiya and then we have the author stating itachi is a good guy.


imo its more plausible to think itachi didn't want akatsuki the group he was spying on for the village to have naruto, 

then to think itachi somehow knew about jiraiya having sage mode when the author didn't leave us any direct clues about this and felt he wouldn't beat jiraiya with kisame and more back up. 



Turrin said:


> Actually the context of the manga does beg readers to speculate on what Jiriaya has beyond simply being a Legendary Sannin.
> 
> The arc starts out with Orochimaru, a Legendary Sannin admitting inferiority to Itachi.
> Kisame's opinion is also in line with this. A Legendary Sannin is tough, but Itachi is still somehow capable of beating one
> ...



Kishi actually hinted nothing of the sort, orochimaru was made to be the standout sanin countless amount of times, and was stated to be the genius among the three, even when topics of who can beat oro came up, people instantly though damn i wish minato was still alive, not damn i wish jiraiya would come back to the village and beat orochimaru already so this notion can't make sense unless we had some kind of proof of jiraiya being stronger then orochimaru which we don't have. 


Itachi being familiar with sage mode as I've stated before, doesn't mean much unless we can prove he knew jiraiya had it.



Turrin said:


> He had no intention to engage Jiriaya. That's why the whole thing with the woman was set up to lure  Jiriaya away and why they retreated after Jiriaya showed up.



i agree with this but our reasons as to why he didn't wanna engage jiraiya differs.



Turrin said:


> the argument for why characters don't use certain jutsu against enemies is one that can be extended to every confrontation in the manga. Characters rarely use their Jutsu in the most effective way possible, period. So that is not a good argument.



not using a jutsu effectively and holding back 2 trumps cards against a life threatening opponent is 2 different things. Itachi is pretty quick to the gun against someone he feels is superior to him, see the nagato fight

Had itachi been serious about his mission he had no reason to retreat as we have feats from part 2 that shows he had alot of moves he could of chose to use, yet he literally only used moves in a defensive manner and didn't even attempt to engage jiraiya once, it literally makes no sense.



Turrin said:


> Jiriaya was not healed from the poison he suffered from it throughout. All the Sannin were handicapped there and Orochimaru had the help of Kabuto. Yet even still he was WTFPWN, once he was up against 2 Sannin at once.



He recovered enough to summon gamma bunt, and orochimaru literally had no jutsu, once tsunade got over her fear of blood kabuto was a non factor and beside that your missing my point.

Orochimaru knows tsunade and jiraiya better then anyone else, yet he felt he had a chance against both of them.

But for some odd reason, orochimaru feels he has absolutely no chance against itachi? see where I'm going with this?

if anybody should know about sm it should be oro yet he still felt confident in fighting them, but he won't fight itachi why would the author portray this if it didn't mean anything? Sm doesn't seem to be the answer because orochimaru should have knowledge on that.



Turrin said:


> Basically it's really not a good battle to base any conclusions on as we do not know who was handicapped more. Drugged Jiriaya or Armless Orochimaru (w/ Kabuto to summon for him).



im not talking about the outcome but more about oro's reasoning, he thinks he can beat jiraiya but not itachi, i think its pretty clear oro at least feels itachi is stronger then jiraiya.




Turrin said:


> Kisame would have been irrelevant in a match between Jiriaya and Itachi. Think about it. Itachi states Kisame would struggle with P1 Kakashi. P1 Kakashi was shitting his pants at the thought of fighting Orochimaru. And when Jiriaya actually did use a Jutsu Kisame was helpless against it and had to rely on Itachi to save his ass.



jiraiya got to use a jutsu on a back turn kisame, and a back turned itachi, not a very good example, i could argue if jiraiya is not paying attention and kisame suddenly gets him in his water dome he would be helpless to.

i concede to jiraiya being stronger then kisame but not to the point where he would be a non factor 



Turrin said:


> Kisame became stronger over time. His performance against Killer-B or Gai should not be taken as representative of his P1 abilities. Unless your telling me the Kisame that fought those 2 would struggle against P1 Kakashi.




depends how serious itachi though kakashi would injure kisame before kisame ultimately won, itachi stepping in was just more of a hey i can beat this guy without him touching me, vs hey you can win but he may injure you in the process, it doesn't really indicate pt1 kakashi would of been a extreme difficult battle for kisame.



Turrin said:


> Kishi clearly does not intend for us to see Kisame's performance years later and after absorbing tons of Bijuu-Chakra, than go back to the P1 statements and say because of that these statements are wrong.



even if you believe kisame to be not as strong as his part 2 version, he's still above pt1 kakashi's level, it would make no sense for him to be a non factor in a battle between him and itachi, even if him and kisame have more back up, which I'm assuming is more akatasuki members.


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -You also have them in disbelief at the end of the fight.
> 
> -Then we have both Zetsu breaking down why Itachi may have lost.


Yeah, but what does this have to do with what I said concerning the validity of BZ's statement? I pretty much already addressed this in my most recent response to Grimmjow.

(Btw: When WZ reminds BZ how he had said something was off about Itachi's performance, BZ agrees and specifically mentions Itachi's reflexes and his coughing up blood which as Grimmjow pointed out didn't start til later in the fight, so I don't see your point here.)



> No it doesn't. You don't understand how Tsukuyomi works, or the context probably. Tsukuyomi used offensively completely breaks the opponents spirit by torturing them in the realm which their body actually feels (it can also be used emotionally). For Itachi to have done that to sasuke may have brought Orochimaru out, but it would have left Sasuke in a nigh coma (as it did to kakashi even when Itachi was holding back the magnitude of the illusion), which isn't what Itachi wanted. He wanted Sasuke to think he vanquieshed Itachi on his own (hence why Sasuke smiled before fainting, and has such a hard time believing Itachi threw the fight afterwards.). It would have atleast taken a day or two for Sasuke to recover, was Itachi suppossed to just redo everything after? That is ridiculous to think.
> Itachi essentially set up a play, in which sasuke though valiant was about to lose, until Oro came out (which completed one of Itachi's main objectives) and was vanquieshed leaving sasuke to win only by Itachi dying andhaving his last motion be poking sasuke's head (show him one last nod of affection) which also sealed his power, and Amaterasu inside of him.


Nothing you said here precludes the example scenario that I laid out a page back. Again, Itachi as the master of space-and-time within Tsukuyomi could have created a very similar scenario within Tsukuyomi as what actually ended up happening IRL. After Sasuke had collapsed within the illusion Itachi could have turned it off and then abstracted Oro and planted Ama in his eye. Interesting that would say Itachi wouldn't want to put Sasuke into a coma with Tsukuyomi when that's what ended up happening anyway thanks to Itachi's master planning. 




> t would make no sense for BZ to explain Itachi was holding back. He like the audience at the time has no idea of Itachi's intentions so of course he is going to explain from his most logical point of view what he thought happened.


Again, sorry, I'm not buying it. Kishi only a chapter later or whatever later introduced the idea that something was wrong with Itachi (concerning his reflexes). In this specific instance BZ seems to have no problem at all acknowledging that Sasuke could have broken through and tells us--the readers--how. Look at it this way:

BZ
-Sasuke avoids being hit by Tsukuyomi: Hmm, a shinobis weapon it only at strong as its user blah blah (and we know that Sasuke has "special" eyes and chakrra to boot).
-Itachi can't dodge the shuriken feint: Itachi should have been able to dodge that easily, something seems off with his reflexes

A clear distinction is being made here, unless you're telling me that BZ also doesn't know what Itachi is capable of with his ace-in-the-whole genjutsu.



> His explanation was proven directly wrong by the manga. Sasuke even with EMS is no where near Itachi's level of genjutsu, Danzo commented that his MS genjutsu was <<< Itachi's as well, Sasuke still hasn't shown Tsukuyomi use.


No it wasn't. It adds to, or rather, should be taken as an aside. 

Danzo's comment as you're using it here is being taken out of context and I'll add that you seem to be completely overlooking just want BZ was trying to convey with his shuriken analogy. 



> So were are to assume Hebi sacue 3 tomoe > Itachi MS? But MS Sasuke genjutsu < MS Itachi genjutsu?


Not necessarily, but then again that's not the point.



> In a direct comparison Itachi's 3 tomoe gave Bee more trouble, than sasuke MS base genjutsu. All the evidence points to Itachi letting him break it, or using an extremely weak version to make Sasuke think he broke a killing intent Tsukuyomi.


Cool, but we're not talking about Bee here and the context of the fights are different. 



> Once again I heavily disagree. First tobi stated if Itachi wanted him dead, he would have been dead, indicating Itachi could have certainly killed Sasuke had he desired. Sasuke puzzled claims in his defense that Itachi used MS on him, indicating killing intent. To which tobi states were only used to draw out Oro's power. We get two backshots on the panel of Itachi using MS on Sasuke. Itachi used Ama on the Oro wing (which he knew from a prior katon Sasuke could use for expendable defense.), and Tsukyomi to rile him up. This is clearly what the author is intending bro.


What can I say other than I addressed these same concerns to Grimmjow. If you want to pick out specific points that I made and attempt to rebuke those go ahead.



> Obito didn't care about his identity at that point hence the reoccuring theme of him being the personified "idea of Madara". Obito would have told anyone he was Madara like he did vs the Gokage at the summit. Does that mean he was lying about the moon's eye plan and everything else? No.


We know that Obito was claiming to be Mads as to add credibility to himself and draw attention away from his real identity. The problem is that is not the only instance in his conversation with Sasuke were he outright lies, as I pointed out with the provided link. In a case like this it is fair I feel the question the _accuracy _of what is being told. Note that this does not mean I'm discounting the _fact _that the fight was a sham, but am merely dubious of specific details. Again, Obito seems to be going through painstaking detail in order to win Sasuke's trust, and, among other things, it confuses me how he could possibly know the level of detail of exactly how things went down. Certain things that are not corroborated and, sadly, probably will never be confirmed nor denied. 



> Sasuke's eye are special because he is Indra's incarnation but he still has to level up. His genjutsu with MS was < Itachi's via hype, portrayal, and feats.


There are a number of considerations that are relevant here: Sasuke's "superior" eyes and chakra, his will to win this fight against Itachi (i.e. both combatant can "want it". but one can want it more), and the frank possibility that Sasuke is just plain most adept with utilizing his eyes than Itachi was/is, etc. I honestly don't see how this is hard to fathom, especially given what we know now.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 11, 2014)

Not even much of a match, especially not in the second scenario. Itachi wins this, undoubtedly.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Not even much of a match, especially not in the second scenario. Itachi wins this, undoubtedly.



In theory he can't win if he is going to run away out of fear after one attack from Jiraiya. 
he even admitted that. @>@


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> In theory he can't win if he is going to run away out of fear after one attack from Jiraiya.
> he even admitted that. @>@



Except the fear part is completely made up and his retreat had nothing to do with Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Except the fear part is completely made up and his retreat had nothing to do with Jiraiya.



Why did he retreat then?


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Why did he retreat then?



To evade unnecessary attention. Staying longer would've attracted more Shinobi, making the goal a lot more difficult than it needed to be. Itachi's actually known to lie in order to get you to listen to him. 

Genjutsu easily solos Jiraiya. Your only reasoning for Itachi being inferior is what he said? Try again.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> To evade unnecessary attention. Staying longer would've attracted more Shinobi, making the goal a lot more difficult than it needed to be. Itachi's actually known to lie in order to get you to listen to him.
> 
> Genjutsu easily solos Jiraiya. Your only reasoning for Itachi being inferior is what he said? Try again.



Except they were not in konoha to begin with.  

No, you try again because manga > you.
Also, it's obvious that the SM users are stronger than the MS users.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Why did he retreat then?



Because he had no reason to be there or fight Jiraiya over nothing.

Do you read the manga ?


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## IchLiebe (Jul 11, 2014)

Capturing the Kyuubi was his mission. You mean to tell me that Jiraiya forced Itachi to retreat from completing his mission when it was right in front of him...but instead of carrying Naruto away Kisame had to carry Itachi away.


Itachi ran because he knew Jiraiya if at possible, wouldn't go down easily and would put up a hell of a fight.


Jiraiya would enter SM to protect Naruto.

Also Kisame was forced to abandon the mission as well, and we seen how far him and Itachi will go to complete a mission.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Except they were not in konoha to begin with.
> 
> No, you try again because manga > you.
> Also, it's obvious that the SM users are stronger than the MS users.



...you don't need to be in Konoha to find Shinobi. They're all over. Also, how is it obvious when Jiraiya is inferior to Itachi? Obviously SM users aren't always stronger than MS users. Last time I checked, it was a MS user who defeated Kabuto. Madara is a MS user and he supplants Jiraiya, Minato, Kabuto, and Naruto. Obito is a MS user and he's stronger than Jiraiya as well.  This is canon. That being said, how is it _obvious_ that SM users are stronger than MS users? :


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Capturing the Kyuubi was his mission.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 11, 2014)

IM sorry Grimmjow, what were the reasons he and Kisame were sent there for? What is the main goal of Akatsuki?

Capturing bijuus. You know he failed his mission  because Jiraiya forced him and Kisame to retreat like little bitches. After Gai made them retreat.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 11, 2014)

Itachi killed his own parents and other relatives to protect Konoha. No wonder later he follows orders that directly harm Konoha. Oh, wait...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> IM sorry Grimmjow, what were the reasons he and Kisame were sent there for? What is the main goal of Akatsuki?
> 
> Capturing bijuus. You know he failed his mission  because Jiraiya forced him and Kisame to retreat like little bitches. After Gai made them retreat.



No offense but I am not going into an argument with someone who thinks Itachi was trying to capture Naruto. It is 2014 FFS.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> IM sorry Grimmjow, what were the reasons he and Kisame were sent there for? What is the main goal of Akatsuki?
> 
> Capturing bijuus. You know he failed his mission  because Jiraiya forced him and Kisame to retreat like little bitches. After Gai made them retreat.



The first one you arguably made a point. The second one, however? No. Gai's strength wouldn't have helped him against Itachi. We all know the REAL reason Itachi was there. Naruto wasn't really his main concern. Secondly, the fight would've attracted more Leaf Shinobi which would've been overwhelming for them both. Itachi had no intention in fighting whatsoever. Gai didn't make them retreat, at all.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because he had no reason to be there or fight Jiraiya over nothing.
> 
> Do you read the manga ?



Pretty sure he is the same guy who told Sasuke to kill Naruto.
The guy who tried to kill Kurnai
and the one who separated Jiraiya from Naruto, and did not even try to
stop Kisame from cutting Naruto's legs.  

Did I mention he was the same guy who was fighting against Konoha's team so the Akatsuki can get
the Shukaku? 

The same one who made Deidara join the Akatsuki?


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> ...you don't need to be in Konoha to find Shinobi. They're all over. Also, how is it obvious when Jiraiya is inferior to Itachi? Obviously SM users aren't always stronger than MS users. Last time I checked, it was a MS user who defeated Kabuto. Madara is a MS user and he supplants Jiraiya, Minato, Kabuto, and Naruto. Obito is a MS user and he's stronger than Jiraiya as well.  This is canon. That being said, how is it _obvious_ that SM users are stronger than MS users? :



No, they were not there, so please stop making stuff up.  

lol

Hashirama > EMS Madara (Admitted himself)
SM Naruto > MS Sasuke (Stated in the manga)
Minato > Obito (was shown)
Jiraiya > Itachi (Admitted himself)
Kabuto > Itachi. (cut him in half, and needed Sasuke's help)

and MS Madara is feat-less, he gets fodderstomped.


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## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pretty sure he is the same guy who told Sasuke to kill Naruto.
> The guy who tried to kill Kurnai
> and the one who separated Jiraiya from Naruto, and did not even try to
> stop Kisame from cutting Naruto's legs.


Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him more, he knew Sasuke would do things his own way as Tobi said Itachi planned everything. 
-He also had great battlefield control, and you can tell the difference between Itachi trying to hurt someone (check how active he is as an edo vs how standstill he is vs people alive)and he was clearly not trying to hurt people, hence why Kisame and Kakashi also comment that he could have killed Kakashi.



> Did I mention he was the same guy who was fighting against Konoha's team so the Akatsuki can get
> the Shukaku?
> 
> The same one who made Deidara join the Akatsuki?


-He was a spy, and being so you have to do things for the betterment of your mission and collecting Data. You may also note that he completely stood out of the 4 Tails fight and threw his mission with Naruto (immediately made eye contact with him and jiraiya yet used no genjutusu?), and was noted a pacifist.

-It was also a clone as well.



Hussain said:


> Hashirama > EMS Madara (Admitted himself)
> SM Naruto = MS Sasuke (Stated in the manga)
> Minato > Young Obito w/ minimal Kamui experience (was shown)
> Jiraiya < Itachi
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Jul 11, 2014)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> The first one you arguably made a point. The second one, however? No. Gai's strength wouldn't have helped him against Itachi. We all know the REAL reason Itachi was there. Naruto wasn't really his main concern. Secondly, the fight would've attracted more Leaf Shinobi which would've been overwhelming for them both. Itachi had no intention in fighting whatsoever. Gai didn't make them retreat, at all.



Gai shows up, Kisame wants to fight him, Itachi says not to underestimate him(also at this time Gai is the only known person to have a known fighting style to fight against the sharingan) then they run away...forced retreat imo giving Gai's abilities and skills.


If shit were to get serious Dr. White and both sides realized that they must kill each other(Brothers go for the kill and Kabuto goes to kill Sasuke) than the brothers would definitely lose. Kabuto was wrecking their shit.


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## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> If shit were to get serious Dr. White and both sides realized that they must kill each other(Brothers go for the kill and Kabuto goes to kill Sasuke) than the brothers would definitely lose. Kabuto was wrecking their shit.



How do you figure  

He was wrecking their shit because they couldn't risk killing him, while he was free to use all of his arsenal;despite that he lost. If they both are allowed to attack from the get he gets raped 

He wasn't even holding back since Sasuke was there he admitted this himself saying he had such control over his moveset he could attack fully while keeping sasuke safe.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pretty sure he is the same guy who told Sasuke to kill Naruto.


He didn't. He told Sasuke to kill his best friend. Which has nothing to do with capturing Naruto.



> The guy who tried to kill Kurnai


He didn't. I am pretty sure Kurenai would be dead if he wanted her dead.



> and the one who separated Jiraiya from Naruto


As a part of his act, knowing Jiraiya would undo the genjutsu. Besides, he had no intention to harm Naruto anyways. No harm done.



> stop Kisame from cutting Naruto's legs.


How can you be sure ? Maybe he'd do so if Jiraiya didn't interfere. 



> Did I mention he was the same guy who was fighting against Konoha's team so the Akatsuki can get
> the Shukaku?


If it wasn't him, then it would be someone else. Itachi being present there at least ensured Kakashi & Co were unharmed.



> The same one who made Deidara join the Akatsuki?



Without harming him. 
What do you think would happen if they sent someone else in Itachi's place ? They'd probably force him to join or just kill him off.

When everything is said and done, Itachi never harmed anyone from Konoha. Like the manga told us, he pretended to be after them, while in fact his only objective was to delay Akatsuki as much as he can.

Lets talk about something else then.
Jiraiya pushed Naruto off a cliff. If Naruto couldn't manage to summon Gamabunta, he'd be dead.
Conclusion : Jiraiya wanted to kill Naruto for no reason, didn't have a plan B or didn't anticipate Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta.


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## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lets talk about something else then.
> Jiraiya pushed Naruto off a cliff. If Naruto couldn't manage to summon Gamabunta, he'd be dead.
> Conclusion : Jiraiya wanted to kill Naruto for no reason, didn't have a plan B or didn't anticipate Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta.


Well we know Jiraiya knew about Akatsuki, maybe Jiraiya was akatsuki


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

> =Grimmjowsensei;51192427]He didn't. He told Sasuke to kill his best friend. Which has nothing to do with capturing Naruto.


Naruto is his best friend, my dear. 


> He didn't. I am pretty sure Kurenai would be dead if he wanted her dead.


*
Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*
*
Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*
*
Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*
*
Or how naruto could even stop the momentum of Ei's V1 hits.*

The first two links she was to save herself, and the second two links
he tried to kill Kakashi and Kuranai, but kakashi saved himself and her. 


> As a part of his act, knowing Jiraiya would undo the genjutsu. Besides, he had no intention to harm Naruto anyways. No harm done.



The harm was not done because Jiraiya returned, and itachi was not planning that obviously. 


> How can you be sure ? Maybe he'd do so if Jiraiya didn't interfere.


Because he basically did not say anything and did not even move a finger? 
Don't tell me he magically expected Sasuke to hear about him from the other Jonin
and will magically come at that moment. 

if so, don't you think you're pushing it a bit too far?  


> If it wasn't him, then it would be someone else. Itachi being present there at least ensured Kakashi & Co were unharmed.



I really really don't see how is that a good excuse. 
would you go and rape/kill/steal...etc from other people, and then say
"oh well, if it were not me, someone else would have done it" 

do you really think that way?


> Without harming him.


which is even worst. 
he just made a new Akatsuki member join the Akatsuki. 


> What do you think would happen if they sent someone else in Itachi's place ? They'd probably force him to join or just kill him off.


Man, I really hope you know what you're talking about!
How is it a bad thing if they killed diedara? 


> When everything is said and done, Itachi never harmed anyone from Konoha. Like the manga told us, he pretended to be after them, while in fact his only objective was to delay Akatsuki as much as he can.



His actions did so much harm my dear. He admitted himself that he is the one who made Sasuke a criminal. And I'm sure making kakashi go to hospital is a harmful thing, especially if we take Konoha's condition in regard. It's NOT thank to him that Tsunade returned and dealt with the situation. 

It is NOT thank to him that Jiraiya saved Naruto...etc 
the harm for some stuff was dealt by Konoha's ninja.

However, making deidara join the Akatsuki, and being the one who captured both the 1tail, and 3tails
is sure harmful, and it helped the Juubi to return. 


> Lets talk about something else then.
> Jiraiya pushed Naruto off a cliff. If Naruto couldn't manage to summon Gamabunta, he'd be dead.
> Conclusion : Jiraiya wanted to kill Naruto for no reason, didn't have a plan B or didn't anticipate Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta.



I agree.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Naruto is his best friend, my dear.


Naruto wasn't Sasuke's best friend when Itachi made that remark. Read the manga my dear.



> [5]
> [5]
> [5]
> [5]
> ...


Like I said, if he wanted Kurenai dead, she'd be dead.

He placed Orochimaru under a similar situation with Kurenai and cut his hand off before he could do anything. He could have done the same thing to Kurenai if he wanted to. He wasn't taking them seriously, or had any real intention of harming them.

Here is a more recent manga scan : [5]

"pretend" 
Look it up in the dictionary. 



> The harm was not done because Jiraiya returned, and* itachi was not planning that obviously*.


Even when Kisame said "we didn't expect that genjutsu to hold you off ?"
How can you know what Itachi planned and what he didn't. Simple answer, you can't.



> Because he basically did not say anything and did not even move a finger?


He'd do it if Jiraiya didn't interfere. 



> Don't tell me he magically expected Sasuke to hear about him from the other Jonin
> and will magically come at that moment.
> 
> if so, don't you think you're pushing it a bit too far?


How is that relevant ? Sasuke's presence didn't have to do with any of that.



> I really really don't see how is that a good excuse.
> would you go and rape/kill/steal...etc from other people, and then say
> "oh well, if it were not me, someone else would have done it"
> do you really think that way?


Unrelated.



> which is even worst.
> he just made a new Akatsuki member join the Akatsuki.


He was an undercover agent in Akatsuki. Why would he refuse to do something like that ? Deidara still had a choice, he could have refused. But he didn't.



> Man, I really hope you know what you're talking about!
> How is it a bad thing if they killed diedara?


I am not saying whether it is good or bad. But they would have sent someone else, which would result in Deidara joining in or probably dying.

Recruiting a member isn't an evil deed.



> His actions did so much harm my dear. He admitted himself that he is the one who made Sasuke a criminal. And I'm sure making kakashi go to hospital is a harmful thing, especially if we take Konoha's condition in regard. It's NOT thank to him that Tsunade returned and dealt with the situation.



Because he had no other choice. Its not like Itachi had a ton of options and chose the worst ones on purpose. To be able to put Kakashi down without seriously harming him required him to use Tsukiyomi. Sasuke would have never gotten stronger if he hadn't become a criminal.



> It is NOT thank to him that Jiraiya saved Naruto...etc
> the harm for some stuff was dealt by Konoha's ninja.


I don't understand what you mean by that.



> However, making deidara join the Akatsuki, and being the one who captured both the 1tail, and 3tails
> is sure harmful, and it helped the Juubi to return.


So you are saying that if it wasn't for Itachi, Deidara would have never joined Akatsuki and no other member could have captured 1 tails or 3 tails.

If Minato didn't put Kyuubi inside Naruto, Madara would have never become the Juubi jin, thus Kaguya wouldn't have returned. 




> I agree.



You agree with what ? The fact that Jiraiya is a bad guy and attempts to kill children ?


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No, they were not there, so please stop making stuff up.
> 
> lol
> 
> ...




Actually, he didn't _need_ Sasuke's help. He capitalized on it but it certainly wasn't needed. As Itachi stated himself, HE was the weakness to that jutsu, not Sasuke. Sasuke simply followed him & decided to help on his own volition. But his help was hardly needed. Besides, I recall Itachi saving Sasuke a couple of times. Secondly, Itachi couldn't kill Kabuto. In doing so the Edo tensei would've continued with no end. 

As for Obito? That was then. The Obito we saw during the war? Without question stronger than Minato. No, Jiraiya isn't stronger than Itachi. Give it up. Sage Mode Naruto was equal to Sasuke. We can also get the stats if you'd like.




IchLiebe said:


> Gai shows up, Kisame wants to fight him, Itachi says not to underestimate him(also at this time Gai is the only known person to have a known fighting style to fight against the sharingan) then they run away...forced retreat imo giving Gai's abilities and skills.
> 
> 
> If shit were to get serious Dr. White and both sides realized that they must kill each other(Brothers go for the kill and Kabuto goes to kill Sasuke) than the brothers would definitely lose. Kabuto was wrecking their shit.



That's bs, though. You know it. Gai knows, absolutely, less than nothing about the Sharingan. Truly, he doesn't. Fighting Kakashi? LOL! I'd like to see him look at Itachi's feet and not get his arse ignited by Amatarasu : Itachi and Kisame were already leaving first off. Itachi was there regarding Sasuke. Itachi said so himself that it wasn't his intention to harm anyone. Besides, the reason he's in the Akatsuki was to protect the village. He wasn't trying to hurt anyone. That was the least of his intentions.


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## Bloo (Jul 12, 2014)

Could someone arguing that Jiraiya scared away Itachi in Part I explain to me why Itachi would want to capture Naruto when it would massively weaken the village he gave his life away to defend? Until you can logically and smoothly explain away that massive and insurmountable hole in your argument then you have entirely no leg to stand on in this debate riding off of that outdated, insensible "contention".


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 30, 2014)

Considering Kabuto, who had a mastered Sage Mode needed to block his cornea in order to fight Itachi, that means normal Sage Mode users aren't immune to Tsukuyomi. Closing his eyes was possible for him, because Kabuto could easily shrug away any physical attack, like Amaterasu with Oral Rebirth, or liquifying his body with Suigetsu's jutsu, and he had very powerful regeneration and healing, both boosted by Sage Mode.

If Jiraiya were to fight with his eyes closed, however, he would be an easy target for Amaterasu.

And thats if Jiraiya started in Sage Mode.

Jiraiya starting on Base really doesn't have a better counter to Genjutsu than anything Orochimaru had, however, since he can't regenerate like Oro, if he loses a hand or two its much worst for him.

Base Jiraiya has virtually impossible odds to dodge Amaterasu he's not really fast, and even worst for if he's trying to take any precaution againts Tsukyomi.

So in conclusion, to me Itachi wins wether Jiraiya begins in Sage Mode or not. But here he doesn't. And in the second scenario Itachi is an Edo so he can spam MS all day long which makes it even worst than Jiraiya starting the first scenario in Base.


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