# Gai vs Gokage



## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Location: The place where Madara fought Gokage.
Conditions: Gai has infinite 8th Gate access for this match and will not die from the gates.
Distance: 100 meters.
Knowledgement: The knowledgement they would have in manga.


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## Grimsley (Mar 19, 2014)

you know how this battle will end what's the point of making this thread? non of them are fast enough to touch gai let alone hit him.


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## Cognitios (Mar 19, 2014)

5 Kage, 5 elephant hits. Gg


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

V2 Raikage w/Backpack Onoki can handle him.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> V2 Raikage w/Backpack Onoki can handle him.




5 Kage, including those two, couldn't even handle Edo Madara. 

Furthermore, Kakashi said that Gai's power surpassed that of the 5 Kage.


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## Shodai (Mar 19, 2014)

man its simple...remeber Lee in chunnin shiken
how much kids (without count neji) u think are needed to stop lee without weights...ALL OF THEN, and probably they will loose
man this is simple...i dont care if they are 1, 5 or 10...Gai with his full speed is aumost impossible to be beaten or even touched
what would deidara, Itachi, Sasori/Tobi do againts Gai man...nothing
they will be punched to the death 
same with gokage

you just can't win against something that moves at 300km/h and defeats you in one punch


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Infinite 8 gates makes this a tough call but I think between them they could formulate a plan to beat him. The difference between fighting someone like him and Madara is that while they are both very difficult to actually touch, touching Gai with any reasonable attack will beat him whereas Madara just won't die. Whether it be because of Edo or current durability.


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## richard lewis (Mar 19, 2014)

It was stated that gai could solo the 5 kage, although its a tough call as to whether or not he could actually pull it off. Considering he blitzed Madara I'd say he can blitz any of the kage at will even Ei and Onoki combined and evening elephant would probably oneshot any of them bar tsunade. It's going to depend on how will Katsuya can do at keeping the kage alive, it's  gunna revolve around whether they can manage to stay alive long enough to outlast gates which is possible but unlikely.

Didn't notice the infinite a gates, in that case gai wins.


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai rapes their anus. With 6th/7th Gate alone he could put a fight, with 8th Gate he is taking on fucking Juubidara  who hyped him saying that he never felt so excited since Hashirama... a far less stronger version of Madara already put the Gokage to shame... take your pick.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 19, 2014)

Infinite eight gates aren't necessary. He still stomps with the same difficulty, only this time he lives.



Cyphon said:


> Infinite 8 gates makes this a tough call but I think between them they could formulate a plan to beat him. The difference between fighting someone like him and Madara is that while they are both very difficult to actually touch, touching Gai with any reasonable attack will beat him whereas Madara just won't die. Whether it be because of Edo or current durability.



They could formulate a plan? Given the abilities they've shown, can they come up with a plan that can take down Gai? Are they also going to do that when they are all getting blitzed and crushed without mercy?

They can kill Gai if they can connect a hit, just like fodder could kill Hashirama with a kunai. A moot point since neither is actually going to happen. None of them can actually touch Gai, let alone follow his speed.


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## egressmadara (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Location: The place where Madara fought Gokage.
> Conditions: Gai has infinite 8th Gate access for this match and will not die from the gates.
> Distance: 100 meters.
> Knowledgement: The knowledgement they would have in manga.


Way too advantageous for Gai, although he can still do without it. He's massively too fast for any of them to catch up with, and can directly one-shot all of them at once.
Gai would low-diff them.


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## ? (Mar 19, 2014)

Madara and Kakashi pretty much confirmed Gai> the Gokage. If that's not enough proof, Gai is currently using Juubi Madara as a punching bag; a version of Madara that is significantly stronger than the Edo Madara that toyed with the Gokage.

Gai is too fast and strong for them. They loose 10/10.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> They could formulate a plan? Given the abilities they've shown, can they come up with a plan that can take down Gai? Are they also going to do that when they are all getting blitzed and crushed without mercy?



Tsunade can survive anything Gai can throw at her short of having her head cut off. Onoki can fly which would force Gai into the air and as we just saw vs Madara while Gai is in the air thrown kunai and Gaara's sand can all keep up with him. That is already a reasonable summation without even considering 2 of the other Kage.



> They can kill Gai if they can connect a hit, just like fodder could kill Hashirama with a kunai. A moot point since neither is actually going to happen. None of them can actually touch Gai, let alone follow his speed.



Terrible comparison but okay. 

Not really expecting much in terms of quality from the BDers nowadays.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 5 Kage, including those two, couldn't even handle Edo Madara.
> 
> Furthermore, Kakashi said that Gai's power surpassed that of the 5 Kage.



Do not get confused.

Let's get down to the dirt with this. The 5 Kage couldn't handle Perfect Susanoo. They didn't have anything in their arsenal that could properly combat THAT.

Gai is a fast-humanoid target. They HAVE the tool for him, which is backpack Raikage.

We've never seen V2 Lightened Raikage's speed in action but from just raw scaling and common sense I see no reason why he would not be capable of handling Gai's speed.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> 5 Kage, 5 elephant hits. Gg



^This.

Taking away Gate fatigue just means there are no consequences for Gai effortlessly slaughtering the five Kage.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> We've never seen V2 Lightened Raikage's speed in action but from just raw scaling and common sense I see no reason why he would not be capable of handling Gai's speed.




Did you miss the part where JJ Madara himself had difficulty keeping track of Gai?

Edo Madara, Perfect Susano'o and all, is disgustingly inferior to JJ Madara, and the 5 Kage were like flies to Edo Madara's truck. Gai can compete as a near equal to JJ Madara, reminding him the Hashirama battle. This is not a fight,  it's a slaughter.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

Night Elephant vs Amaterasu at 5m.

Which is faster


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> Night Elephant vs Amaterasu at 5m.
> 
> Which is faster




Night Elephant, no contest. The speed of Amaterasu was determined by Sasuke's reflexes & visual perception, which is _massively_ massively massively inferior to Gai.

My turn. 

Rinnegan Jubidara or Raikage.

Who's faster.


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## ARGUS (Mar 19, 2014)

With infinite access to 8th gate 
Guy takes them to the rape shed before they even realise it


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai decimates with infinite 8th-Gate


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Night Elephant, no contest. The speed of Amaterasu was determined by Sasuke's reflexes & visual perception, which is _massively_ massively massively inferior to Gai.
> 
> My turn.
> 
> ...



BSM Naruto & EMS Sasuke have the feat of tracking a flying Juubi-Jin. While in flight, Juubi Jins are not as fast as they can be. So Gai tagging him is not THAT big of a feat/surprise. To make matters worse, they tagged said Juubi-Jin while they were big hulking monsters.

V2 Lightened Raikage could replicate such feat without question. (referring to connecting a hit to a Levitating/flying Juubi-Jin)


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## Fiiction (Mar 19, 2014)

For the people that actually believes that "backpack V2 A" can keep up with 8 gates Gai. Kill yourself.Or just re-read ch.669 5 times and then re-read chs. 560-580 until you realise that there's no way in hell that anybody is keeping up with 8 gate Gai in terms of speed. If juubidara can't, your fav can't.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

LOL.

My argument has no cracks in it so far. It is sound and I still have more to back it up if I'm pushed.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> BSM Naruto & EMS Sasuke have the feat of tracking a flying Juubi-Jin. While in flight, Juubi Jins are not as fast as they can be. So Gai tagging him is not THAT big of a feat/surprise. To make matters worse, they tagged said Juubi-Jin while they were big hulking monsters.
> 
> V2 Lightened Raikage could replicate such feat without question. (referring to connecting a hit to a Levitating/flying Juubi-Jin)




Naruto & Sasuke had their attacks caught by JJ Obito, and then got slammed into the ground, their cloaks obliterated. Gai literally ran circles around JJ Madara and punched him upside his face four times _before he could move._

Not only is Madara superior to Obito, but Gai's feat is an actual blitz (notice the "!" followed by Madara's failure to guard himself), not just showing the capability of keeping track of a Jubi Jin's speed.

Btw, in terms of speed & reaction time:

v1 Raikage = KCM Naruto (uncontrolled flicker) < v2 Raikage ≤ KCM Naruto (controlled flicker) = Lightened Raikage (imo this is where he falls) << BM Naruto < Sage Mode BM Naruto.

Using BSM Naruto's feats for any form of the Raikage is a bad idea to begin with.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 19, 2014)

did a much weaker version of madara not solo the 5 kages?


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 19, 2014)

A version of eight gated Gai who was clearly held back by the fact his body was adjusting to the strains of his newly allotted power was stated by Kakashi to be above that of the five Kage.

If that isn't definitive evidence, then I suppose the fact that he was pressuring and ragdolling a version of Madara vastly superior to the one who was toying around with the Gokage should suffice.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2014)

Alright, alright. I give in.

I really can't go in this hard in an argument for anyone but Naruto.

Lmao. I'm lazy.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Damn, I'm curious to see what you would've said. That's always the best part.


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## Bonly (Mar 19, 2014)

With infinite access to 8th gate Might Gai takes this handily. Unless someone is underrating Gai because they didn't truly understand what he did this chapter which is hella impressive, everyone should agree that he wins.


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## SharinganKisame (Mar 19, 2014)

this isn't even a fight, Gai vs the gokage it's like prime hiruzen fighting Ichiraku.. 8 gates gai is tiers above the gokage.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 19, 2014)

You put guy at Infinite 8 Gates. Without that he loses. WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU DO THAT???


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## Ersa (Mar 19, 2014)

Implying the limit of the 8th Gate matters when Gai can oneshot any of them and pressured a Juubi Jinn. It's 5 ants fighting Bruce Lee.


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## Lurko (Mar 19, 2014)

Guy rapes sooooooo much.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> A version of eight gated Gai who was clearly held back by the fact his body was adjusting to the strains of his newly allotted power was stated by Kakashi to be above that of the five Kage.



I don't think you can take it that way AS though I would like to hear from a translator about it. Consider everything we know.

When Kakashi first explained gates to us he said that opening all 8 gates grants you temporary power stronger than the Hokage. 

Probably don't need to explain that is probably the same thing he means now. He even references the Lee time in the convo. I think he means Gai is individually stronger than any of the Gokage on their own. 

Or if you don't want to go that route it could also be specifically in reference to Madara.

We know that Madara can only be hit with
Taijutsu or Sage shit. Keeping that in mind, that eliminates 3 of the Gokage right off the bat. Oonoki, Mei and Gaara aren't Sage or Taijutsu fighters. Sure they could try to punch him but do they really expect results? So Tsunade and A are the only 2 viable candidates to even enter the conversation vs Madara. So in this scenario Gai may be stronger than all 5 but only in reference to having any impact vs Madara. 

Some people are best suited for fighting 1 opponent while others are built to fight multiples. Gai  is in the former category. He is a straight on fighter with raw speed and strength and very little in the way of tactics. So when he can focus all of his efforts on 1 person he becomes a demon. However, if we consider an actual fight vs the 5 Kage.....It isn't comparable. 

Here he can focus on Madara while vs the 5 Kage (even if they can't hit him) he has too much work to do while the gates kill him. Gaara and Onoki can make clones and Gai won't be able to discern the difference. On top of that Oonoki and Gaara can fly/lend everyone flight. So they can all spread out and keep their distance. 

Add to that Katsuya who can heal just about any damage Gai can throw at them and he becomes fairly ineffective vs the group.

On the flip side they are ineffective vs Madara because they have nothing that can pierce his defense even if they can stay safe from him. You could argue they can't hit Gai either but he also has to kill himself to maintain that safety. Well, in this case he has unlimited gates IIRC but he can still be hit. 


I have said a lot but ultimately what it comes down to is that I think you are jumping the gun on what Gai is actually accomplishing and what it means in regards to other battles.



Edit: Forgot another point I wanted to make. A has already faced speeds he can't actually keep up with and formulated a plan to counter it. Granted he failed, but in this case there are less guesses for him to make and the idea can still work. Gai has to attack 1 of 5 targets so if A guesses the right one he can move in to hit Gai as Gai attacks someone else.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> He is a straight on fighter with raw speed and strength and very little in the way of tactics. So when he can focus all of his efforts on 1 person he becomes a demon. However, if we consider an actual fight vs the 5 Kage.....It isn't comparable.




....Except you can't ignore the actual feat. That concept makes sense, but it's only applicable if all of the fighters are at the same level, or at least close. If Gai is a "demon" when facing one opponent, but that opponent happens to be Jubidara,  then the 5 Kage are going to need to be around Jubidara's level for it to make a difference. 

They aren't even close.



> Here he can focus on Madara while vs the 5 Kage (even if they can't hit him) he has too much work to do while the gates kill him. Gaara and Onoki can make clones and Gai won't be able to discern the difference. On top of that Oonoki and Gaara can fly/lend everyone flight. So they can all spread out and keep their distance.




OP gave Gai infinite Gates.




> On the flip side they are ineffective vs Madara because they have nothing that can pierce his defense even if they can stay safe from him.






They can stay safe from him? Nah. The five Kage wouldn't lose to Jubidara because they lack Senjutsu. Hell, if you gave them all a curse mark, or even Sage Mode, they would still get slaughtered. He would run through them all cutting them to ribbons with those black spheres as if it were a casual stroll in the park, just as he casually dispatched them with Perfect Susano'o before (which is basically fodder before the power of the Jubi). That's right, Edo Madara, who isn't even comparable to Jubito, absolutely stomped the five Kage with low difficulty, and they had ways of damaging him.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ....Except you can't ignore the actual feat.



This stuff was for AS but I will respond quickly to some things you must have misunderstood.

I didn't ignore any feat. 



> OP gave Gai infinite Gates.



Already said that. 



> They can stay safe from him?



I said "*if* they can stay safe from him". And I also noted it wouldn't matter because they can't hurt Madara anyway.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I didn't ignore any feat




You did indeed. You focused on concept alone, claiming that Gai's fantastic showings against one person are only that way because he only needed to focus on one. The five Kage would then fare better because they are five.

That ignores who Gai's "one" opponent was.



> Already said that.




So you made the "he has too much work to do while the Gates kill him" point for no reason. 



> I said "*if* they can stay safe from him". And I also noted it wouldn't matter because they can't hurt Madara anyway.




"They can't hurt him even if they can stay safe from him."

That can be interpreted a few different ways, but regardless, they can't stay safe from him. He would kill them all as an _afterthought;_ they are so inferior.


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## Strict (Mar 20, 2014)

Kakashi's statement confirmed that Gai on 8 gates would surpass the Gokage, so the discussion is pointless. Someone who was able to push Juubi's Jin that far would crush the Gokage. They have no chance of victory, he is the last man standing. He could deal multiple blows in one second with each of them utterly destroying a Kage.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That ignores who Gai's "one" opponent was.



No it doesn't. Who his opponent was isn't relevant to the point anyway. 




> So you made the "he has too much work to do while the Gates kill him" point for no reason.



No. I was using it for general discussion as well as "realism" because Gai would never have access to unlimited and I am certain most here think he can win with them limited anyway. 



> That can be interpreted a few different ways, but regardless, they can't stay safe from him. He would kill them all as an _afterthought;_ they are so inferior.



True. I just said it for comparison purposes. While they can't harm Madara because of ultimate defense they can harm Gai.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> No it doesn't. Who his opponent was isn't relevant to the point anyway.




..it's very relevant. Why wouldn't it be?



> No. I was using it for general discussion as well as "realism" because Gai would never have access to unlimited and I am certain most here think he can win with them limited anyway.




He can win without the buff, as they wouldn't be expecting his power. They aren't going to outperform Jubidara, even if they have a number advantage. Their stalling strategy will only work with preparation time and prior knowledge. They're fighting a foe far more dangerous than Perfect Susano'o was, and they couldn't even handle that.



> While they can't harm Madara because of ultimate defense they can harm Gai.




Theoretically? Yes, of course. Theoretically they can harm many people, even ninja that slaughter them, such as Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke, etc. Jinton technically works on them all, correct.

In practice? No, they cannot. They are incapable of following his basic movement speed, and their bodies are not physically fast enough to muster a response to his barrage of elephant cannons. He is free to pick them off at his leisure.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why wouldn't it be?



Don't worry about it. The post is for AS anyway. We have already had our discussion and I feel you can not remove your bias and as I said, we can discuss this more when the hype dies down and people can see reason again. 

Far too much ABC logic and no logic at all flying around for my tastes at this point.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

I think it's time to step down off your high horse...


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

I also want to reiterate one of the more important points people are overlooking because of the hype.

Faster people can still be reacted too and dodged and prepped against in a fight. I will use the highest speeds we have seen to illustrate it but there are other examples as well.

We know that with Hiraishin Minato is faster than Ei. Ei tried to attack and Minato dodged on more than one occasion. His speed when using Hiraishin is literally instant. That is faster than even Gai can move. Granted, Gai can attack faster but I am talking about prepping for someone getting to you in this instance so there is nobody faster than Minato. 

In this instance we see Ei planning for an opponent that can get somewhere faster than he can. He decides that if he can find a pattern he will be able to get to Minato. It is no different with Gai. Gai has to attack or he loses. So Ei has 4 choices to guess at in this battle. Maybe more if people are using clones although A might just rule them out as expendable anyway.

Ei failed in his attempt to guess because there was an unknown mark which isn't a possibility but despite that we see a young Bee even more prepared. Despite Minato being a good deal faster than Bee, he still could have been hit because of Bee's planning.

The same applies in this fight. No single person can connect with Gai straight up but when you are out ahead of someone fast you don't have to equal them in speed. You aim where they are going to be, not where they are. So Onoki with his Jinton, Gaara with his sand or Mei with her spit stuff have a mid-high likelihood of connecting with Gai given that he has to focus on someone else at any one time.

So sure, he is getting amazing speed feats but have we seen him dodge a multidirectional attack from Madara? Have we seen any special awareness from him in this fight that says he is going to dodge 2 other attacks from the Kage while he is focused on fighting another? No. Granted, we don't have to see it but Gai has no special defense. He has raw speed and speed can be countered. It has been that way the entire manga.

When Lee was way faster than Gaara, something allowed Gaara to survive. When Sasuke was moving so fast Deidara lost sight of him Deidara still managed to dodge, attack and even get into the air. When Ei moved to fast for Sasuke there was a defense involved. The are always ways around speed. 

If Gai was fighting any 1 Kage or even 2, they likely aren't touching him. But 5 who know how to work in conjunction? He will get hit. He just doesn't have the defense to stop it from happening. 

This is also why you can't use the absolutely ridiculous logic that Madara beat the Kage and Gai bloodied Madara so Gai can also beat the 5 Kage. What someone can do 1 on 1 does not equate to what they can do 5 on 1.


Once someone can actually reasonably counter this point (and I already know it can't be done) we can talk about Gai soloing.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Tsunade can survive anything Gai can throw at her short of having her head cut off. Onoki can fly which would force Gai into the air and as we just saw vs Madara while Gai is in the air thrown kunai and Gaara's sand can all keep up with him. That is already a reasonable summation without even considering 2 of the other Kage.



Luckily for Gai, he can do something much worse than cut her head head off. He can completely flatten her entire body including her head. Onoki can't force Gai to do anything. Gai can simply stay on land and punch towards Onoki's direction. Not like he has issues flying anyway. Neither of those things were keeping pace with Gai. They were merely used as support that had nothing to do with how fast he was moving. The mere fact that he was blitzing Madara but you think those things are going to keep up shows what utter crap this all is.



> Terrible comparison but okay.
> 
> Not really expecting much in terms of quality from the BDers nowadays.



You really need to get off that high horse. The point is that a fodder can connect a hit against Hashirama. Doesn't mean it is actually gonna happen.

I could also say them same about you for quality. I've straight up never seen such denial and shitty posting except on notoriously crappy forums.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> ]He can completely flatten her entire body including her head. Onoki can't force Gai to do anything.



Proof please. 



> Gai can simply stay on land and punch towards Onoki's direction.



And while he is doing that Ei and Tsunade kill him. Plus he likely misses Onoki if he is too far. 



> The mere fact that he was blitzing Madara but you think those things are going to keep up shows what utter crap this all is.



So you didn't read the last chapter? Looks to me like Gaara's sand is right there beside Gai.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon, maybe you would be slightly right if all Gai could do was run really fast. Unfortunately, Gai also contains force superior to that of a mini-nuke (Hirodura) condensed into his fist. The 5 Kage have no answer for that if used in combination with his speed.

Also...



			
				Cyphon said:
			
		

> This is also why you can't use the absolutely ridiculous logic that Madara beat the Kage and Gai bloodied Madara so Gai can also beat the 5 Kage. What someone can do 1 on 1 does not equate to what they can do 5 on 1.




That's just wrong. Madara did beat the Gokage, yes. That Madara however, the one that stomped on the 5 Kage with a casual mindset, is complete and utter _cannon fodder_ in the face of the Madara that Gai just *whooped. *


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Cyphon, maybe you would be slightly right if all Gai could do was run really fast. Unfortunately, Gai also contains force superior to that of a mini-nuke (Hirodura) condensed into his fist. The 5 Kage have no answer for that if used in combination with his speed.



Depends on the distance which is all guesswork. Ei can dodge, Gaara and Onoki can be in the air, Tsunade can survive it with healing?.Lord help Mei lol. 




> That Madara however, the one that stomped on the 5 Kage with a casual mindset, is complete and utter _cannon fodder_ in the face of the Madara that Gai just *whooped. *



You are missing the relevant point once again, which is that you can't compare 1 on 1 circumstances to 5 on 1 unless the people have the same skillets. Show me Gai using Susanoo or Mokuton and then we can talk about how ABC logic (especially in this case) isn't retarded. 

Btw Gai hasn't whooped anyone. He gave Madara a bloody lip with help from 4 others.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I also want to reiterate one of the more important points people are overlooking because of the hype.
> 
> Faster people can still be reacted too and dodged and prepped against in a fight. I will use the highest speeds we have seen to illustrate it but there are other examples as well.
> 
> ...






Anyway, Gai blitzes them all with gates. One punch is enough.


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## Mercurial (Mar 20, 2014)

Just a question. Why everyone agrees that Gai stomps and only Cyphon (as in other threads) argues against that fact?


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## Fiiction (Mar 20, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Just a question. Why everyone agrees that Gai stomps and only Cyphon (as in other threads) argues against that fact?



He's either a Gai hater, or doesn't want to accept the fact that it's true.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> He's either a Gai hater, or doesn't want to accept the fact that it's true.



Gai has always been one of my favorites, I am just not easily blinded by hype and like to keep things in context. We have all been there at some point. Something cool happens with a character we like and it is the best thing in the world. I am past that point however, and am immune. 

It will die down though. It always does. Said it once and I will say it again. Some time from now Oro could get some new feat and the BD will be matching him up against every character they can think of and have him soloing as well.


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## iJutsu (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Faster people can still be reacted too and dodged and prepped against in a fight. I will use the highest speeds we have seen to illustrate it but there are other examples as well.


Juudara countered hiraishin like nothing. He literally wasn't planning on anything. Meanwhile even with planning and his shield, he gets blindsided and unable to move against Gai.

Heck Gai doesn't even need to move. His air cannon can literally carve huge and deep holes even with someone like Juudara resisting a portion of it. Anyone that gets caught in it that's not a jin will get destroyed. Gaara might be able to defend against one, but that sand will be gone and there's still 4 even faster ones coming.


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## Fiiction (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Gai has always been one of my favorites, I am just not easily blinded by hype and like to keep things in context. We have all been there at some point. Something cool happens with a character we like and it is the best thing in the world. I am past that point however, and am immune.
> 
> It will die down though. It always does. Said it once and I will say it again. Some time from now Oro could get some new feat and the BD will be matching him up against every character they can think of and have him soloing as well.



It's not just "hype" when you have a Juubi Jin getting his a** kicked , coughing up blood , getting temporally paralysed and stating that several hits from night elephant will be trouble.

And I agree with the second part. That's how it was when Madara got Rinbo , sasuke got PS , naruto got BSM , minato got SM , and when itachi got inzanami. I don't really blame people though, especially if it's your fav getting a power up.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Juudara countered hiraishin like nothing. He literally wasn't planning on anything. Meanwhile even with planning and his shield, he gets blindsided and unable to move against Gai.



He didn't plan much against Gai either. He jumped up and let him decide on an attack before using a defense. Yes, he was blindsided after that but he did stop the initial attack twice IIRC. This is what I am talking about with facing multiple opponents. Lets say he attacks Gaara and hits his sand and then bounces around to go behind Gaara. Ei, could be watching for that and shoot into hit Gai as he is going behind Gaara.

That is just 1 thing that may or may not happen but there are so many options they can use. 2 of them can use clones to have Gai attacking irrelevant enemies.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> And I agree with the second part. That's how it was when Madara got Rinbo , sasuke got PS , naruto got BSM , minato got SM , and when itachi got inzanami. I don't really blame people though, especially if it's your fav getting a power up.



I don't blame them either. Doesn't mean I won't come at them for being too in love


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 20, 2014)

Evening Elephant is just so easy to apply, too fast and too destructive/damaging for a team to strategize, setup and act out whatever they are planning. It's unfair but that is just the beauty of taijutsu and it's a great counter against most ninjutsu usage it the level is high enough(like the eight gates battle formation is).

Not taking kakashi's hype into account which is true based off the latest chap the feats speak for themselves. Gai overwhelms them.


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## crystalblade13 (Mar 20, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> V2 Raikage w/Backpack Onoki can handle him.



The fuck you talking about? They couldnt beat non serious edo madara.

Guys damaged 10 tails madara and put him on the defensive, furthermore, madara said that he was the strongest opponent since he fought hashirama.

1 step and their paste at the bottom of a mile long hole in the ground.

GUY no difficulty.


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## StickaStick (Mar 20, 2014)

How the fuck are the kages going to have time to go anything besides get their teeth kicked in? 

Gai lolstomps.


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## crystalblade13 (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Proof please.



lower left panel

prepared

tsunade has been damaged like a regular human beeing throughout the series. she just regenerates.

If a regular human gets hit by an attack that leaves a mile long crater, they'de be a smear. if they're lucky.

logic.


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## trance (Mar 20, 2014)

Infinite Eight Gates? 

Gai was pressuring Madara as the Juubi's jinchuriki. A far weaker version of Madara could fodderstomp the Gokage. This is the biggest rape I've seen in a while.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2014)

Did you guys remember SSJ2 Gohan vs the Cell Jrs?

Yeah? Double the rape.

Gai is too fast, and the only way the Gokage can beat him is outlasting him running away. Any of the Gokage that dares to stop one second to attack him is gonna get ragdolled and murdered. Infinite Gated Gai is just too much.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

crystalblade13 said:


> lower left panel
> 
> prepared
> 
> ...



That doesn't look like someone being turned to pulp and we have never really seen a ninja turned to pulp. Typically they end up with broken bones or other internal damage. I am not denying Tsunade would suffer the same but she can heal from it. And it seems Katsuya is beyond even Tsunades healing power and with her ability to split and survivability the Kage have a nice little safety net in her as well.


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Mar 20, 2014)

Gai doesn't need an unlimited duration of the 8th gate to easily obliterate the kages.

the author's words specifically were that the gates grants the user power beyond the 5 kages. but people are to desperate to deny the truth and i know it must really hurt them deep down inside that a side character who gets little panel time is 20 times stronger than their favorite character.

trust me, i know how it feels gai sensei haters.

but these are the author's words and you must accept reality. anyone who continues to deny Gai's superiority is simply delusional and wont accept the truth.

but yea, 5 kages = 5 night elephants like someone already said.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> That doesn't look like someone being turned to pulp



He's pointing out that Madara has just been hit so hard, he was knocked a mile into the ground. If the same thing happened to Tsunade, she'd die.  Here is the top of the hole.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> He's pointing out that Madara has just been hit so hard, he was knocked a mile into the ground. If the same thing happened to Tsunade, she'd die.



Doubtful. She can heal from just about anything.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 20, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Doubtful. She can heal from just about anything.



She's never been hit so hard that her body was buried a mile into the ground before.   Guy kicks off the air into the sky above her and throws punches at the ground.  She's dead.  She'll be crushed.  


*Spoiler*: __


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## RBL (Mar 20, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> V2 Raikage w/Backpack Onoki can handle him.



oh no,  raikage with backpack onoki are shit, if you compare them with these monsters.


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## Cyphon (Mar 21, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> She's never been hit so hard that her body was buried a mile into the ground before.   Guy kicks off the air into the sky above her and throws punches at the ground.  She's dead.  She'll be crushed.



Doubt it. Katsuya can heal her from being split in half, there is very little that is going to kill her and Gai's punches aren't likely. He either needs to remove her heard completely or?.Well, that is just about it. 

The problem here is that we have no basis for comparison. Madara says it will take 4 or 5 hits for him to be in trouble. But how does his durability compare to Tsunade's? We have no way to scale it. Sure, it is higher but by how much?

And how does Madara define "in trouble"? Because he just got hit a bunch of times and seems excited about fighting. 

This is where we stand. I agree Tsunade would take more damage than Madara. I don't think that is debatable. But I also think she can heal from it. There is really no reason to believe otherwise at this point.


----------



## richard lewis (Mar 21, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Doubt it. Katsuya can heal her from being split in half, there is very little that is going to kill her and Gai's punches aren't likely. He either needs to remove her heard completely or?.Well, that is just about it.
> 
> The problem here is that we have no basis for comparison. Madara says it will take 4 or 5 hits for him to be in trouble. But how does his durability compare to Tsunade's? We have no way to scale it. Sure, it is higher but by how much?
> 
> ...



I think it would be a reasonable assumption to say madara's durability should be about on par with the juubi. Which would mean he could probably tank a hit from a giant flaiming FRS, I mean we've seen bee and naruto tanking bujudama's and juubi lasers and I think it would be fare to assume Madara is a good bit more durable. Tsunade on the other and would die instantly from any of those jutsu, and Katsuya cannot revive the dead. Her getting hit with evening elephant will be the equivalent of a fly hitting your windshield on the highway lol, nothing will remain but a splat of goo.

Gai can pretty much blitz any of the kage at will and nuke them. He blitzes mei no problem and punts her head like a football, he then blitzes tsunade and then Ei. Onoki and gaara will be slightly more difficult to deal with but with infinite gates and his ability to fly he'll lake them out eventually.
Gai takes this mid diff.


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## Luftwaffles (Mar 21, 2014)

Tsunade gets K.O'd and the rest get murderstomped.


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## Super Chief (Mar 21, 2014)

Hilarious thread. Gai takes out one or two Kage tops and is destroyed.


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## richard lewis (Mar 21, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Hilarious thread. Gai takes out one or two Kage tops and is destroyed.



Mind giving an explanation as to how exactly the gokage are supposed to "destroy" him?


----------



## Mithos (Mar 22, 2014)

I don't know how the Gokage are supposed to win since you gave him infinite Gates. They eventually go down after he crushes their defenses, which he will sooner or later. 

If Gates were limited, they could likely mount defenses long enough to outlast.


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## Naiad (Mar 23, 2014)

Gaara and onoki take wait in the sky till Guy dies!


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## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 23, 2014)

Naiad said:


> Gaara and onoki take wait in the sky till Guy dies!



Why would being in the skies help them?  Gai can simulate flight by kicking off the air.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Mithos (Mar 23, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Why would being in the skies help them?  Gai can simulate flight by kicking off the air.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



But his speed is drastically reduced when doing that. Gaara's sand had no problem keeping pace with him. Besides losing his speed advantage, Gai would also lose a great deal of maneuverability so he could very well be blasted by a jinton (he wouldn't be able to dodge it, and I don't see his attacks stopping it) while coming after them.


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## Jad (Mar 23, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> But his speed is drastically reduced when doing that. Gaara's sand had no problem keeping pace with him. Besides losing his speed advantage, Gai would also lose a great deal of maneuverability so he could very well be blasted by a jinton (he wouldn't be able to dodge it, and I don't see his attacks stopping it) while coming after them.



False.

This is Gai's speed in the air [1]. You can even see his causing an almost mini whirlwind. Also Zoom in on Madara, his floating in the air, that and the page after it shows his floating in the air [2].

Kishimoto simply didn't illustrate Gai going wicked fast because he made Gai involved with Minato's plan. Had he have Gai going his fastest speeds, the plan would be useless. It was a coordinated attack that Kishimoto illustrated.​


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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2014)

Also, Gai attacked from 5 diferent sides at Madara in mid air so fast that the five air cannons collided in one point before finishing their trayectory. 

Even in the air, Oonoki is speedblitzed badly.


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Mind giving an explanation as to how exactly the gokage are supposed to "destroy" him?



Between the considerable arsenals of the Gokage, you figure it out. Gai is barely Kage level on his own. People need to learn to stop taking everything stated in manga as literal fact. Reading posts in this thread has been enjoyable simple due to sheer delusion of posters caught up in the hype.


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## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

"Gai is barley Kage level"


*Spoiler*: __ 



haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaahhaahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 23, 2014)

Gai isn't 'barely Kage-level'. Seven Gated Gai was willing to go into combat against a man who, in a vastly weaker form, was beating back tailed beasts and moonwalking through top tier shinobi like Sasuke and Tobirama. Eight Gated Gai is pressuring him and beating him down to the point where he's comparing the adrenaline he's experiencing to the level he felt against Hashirama.


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## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Gai isn't 'barely Kage-level'. Seven Gated Gai was willing to go into combat against a man who, in a vastly weaker form, was beating back tailed beasts and moonwalking through top tier shinobi like Sasuke and Tobirama. Eight Gated Gai is pressuring him and beating him down to the point where he's comparing the adrenaline he's experiencing to the level he felt against Hashirama.




Gai's willingness to fight Madara proves exactly nothing. 

Context is king. Take another look at the fight. Madara is simply excited to be witnessing a rare jutsu and he's so cocky he doesn't even know for sure whether he could tank the Evening Elephant. He seems to be curious to find out. This page says it all.


The man is inviting Gai to show more jutsu despite getting smacked around. Why? Because he doesn't feel threatened and Gai is put off by it.

Madara hasn't even begun to retaliate, let alone fight back seriously, and yet ignorant posters are spamming the forum with inane and downright retarded match ups, and this thread is no exception.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Gai's willingness to fight Madara proves exactly nothing.
> 
> Context is king. Take another look at the fight. Madara is simply excited to be witnessing a rare jutsu and he's so cocky he doesn't even know for sure whether he could tank the Evening Elephant. He seems to be curious to find out. This page says it all.
> 
> ...



Someone with some sense.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

The funny thing is, shinobi who would defeat the Gokage with relatively minor difficulty wouldn't even put a scratch on Jubidara, let alone _make him bleed_ and remind him of his _deathmatch_ with Hashirama. 

Gai is performing better against Jubidara then Naruto & Sasuke _together_ performed against Jubito. Keep in mind how much worse Obito is than Madara. Now, their Kyusano'o (which would shit on the five Kage) did well I suppose, but they won due to Obito's subconscious will to lose, and didn't damage Obito anyway. They only manged to expose the Bijuu, and they needed the entire alliance to assist in extracting them.



Super Chief said:


> Madara is simply excited to be witnessing a rare jutsu and he's so cocky he doesn't even know for sure whether he could tank the Evening Elephant. He seems to be curious to find out.






That's a rather interesting definition of "curious" you have there.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gai is performing better against Jubidara /QUOTE]
> 
> Because he has a specialized skill set for doing so. Which is incredible speed. That doesn't make him invincible vs multiple Kage level opponents attack him at once. I have said this repeatedly and it seems people still can't pick up on it.
> 
> He can still be hit and damaged unlike say?.Madara in Susanoo.


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's a rather interesting definition of "curious" you have there.




Yes, Madara is so terrified of Gai he didn't invite him to try out other jutsu to sate his curiosity. Except he did.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Yes, Madara is so terrified of Gai he didn't invite him to try out other jutsu to sate his curiosity. Except he did.



People keep forgetting that actions speak louder than words. Madara says he will be in trouble, but jumps up and faces Gai without even attempting to attack him. Gets hit 4 or 5 times, bleeds a little and then asks Gai what else he's got.

Madara is clearly getting stomped and is very worried right now.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Because he has a specialized skill set for doing so. Which is incredible speed. That doesn't make him invincible vs multiple Kage level opponents attack him at once. I have said this repeatedly and it seems people still can't pick up on it.




Gai doesn't have a skill set any more "specialized" for combating Jubidara than, say, someone like Sage Mode BM Naruto. Naruto had "incredible speed", _and_ the ability to damage the inferior Jubi Jin Obito, yet Obito casually knocked away his attacks and pile-drove him into the ground. 

The speed to essentially blitz Madara makes Gai virtually untraceable to any of the five Kage, and therefore "un-attackable."  Combined with the strength to hurt Jubidara, their defenses also fail, and they lose the fight. Badly. 




> He can still be hit and damaged unlike say….Madara in Susanoo.




Edo Madara can be damaged by going through Susano'o, or by simply hitting him before he puts it up.



Super Chief said:


> Yes, Madara is so terrified of Gai he didn't invite him to try out other jutsu to sate his curiosity. Except he did.




Madara is _excited _to face Gai in battle. He was also exited to face Hashirama back in the day. Who was stronger?


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

@Cyphon

It troubles me that your arguing against Gai beating the Gokage, when the manga outright states that 8th-Gate Gai > Gokage, and > Hashirama, Minato, Prime-Hiruzen, etc... I mean regardless of whether he's as strong as Juubidara or not, really does not effect how Gai is being portrayed as much stronger than the Gokage. 

Now maybe your arguing the Gokage would beat Gai before he pulls out 8th-Gate, but Gai is not so dumb that he wouldn't opt for at least 7th-Gate right out of the jump against the Gokage and he'd quickly move onto 8th-Gate from there, just like his father went 8th-Gate when confronted by the Swordsmen.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The speed to essentially blitz Madara makes Gai virtually untraceable to any of the five Kage, and therefore "un-attackable."  Combined with the strength to hurt Jubidara, their defenses also fail, and they lose the fight. Badly.



You don't need to be able to trace him, you need to be able to counter him, and they can do that. You attack where he is going as opposed to where he is. I believe I already pointed this out to you as well.

Bee and Ei couldn't follow Minato's movement speed but they were still prepared to counter it. That was 2 on 1 vs someone who can go from point A to B faster than Gai. Now it is 5 on 1. 

Tsunade can likely take a hit or 2 and keep trucking given her healing and A may be able to take 1 as well. Gaara, Mei and Onoki would all die but Gaaras sand may blunt some impact if he uses enough.

That isn't even accounting for their ability to fly and spread out forcing Gai to travel further distances thus giving them more time to react.

Nor does it account for clones and confusing tactics to force Gai into indecision about who he is targeting.

You have to account for ALL of that. Which you fail to do because you continue to rely on shoddy ABC logic. 



> Edo Madara can be damaged by going through Susano'o, or by simply hitting him before he puts it up.



It still save him from a lot of attacks that Gai would be damaged by.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It troubles me that your arguing against Gai beating the Gokage, when the manga outright states that 8th-Gate Gai > Gokage,



I have already stated my opinion on this. 

1. Kakashi referenced something similar way back in part 1. He told the rookies that opening the 8th gate grants you temporary power above the Hokage. My sense here is that he is saying the same thing. Gai is stronger than any individual amongst the Gokage. 

2. Even if I agree that he is talking about the complete package of the Gokage I believe it is in specific reference to facing Madara. Gai has a skill set that allows him to harm Madara that the 5 Kage don't. However, that is Gai vs 1 opponent. Things change when their are 5 opponents all arguably as strong as Gai before the 8th gate. The 8th gate gives him a boost above any of them but all 5 attacking at once from different directions with different styles?

No way. 

It troubles me that you guys actually believe he can easily take out all 5. It shows you have very little understanding of how these fights work tactically and otherwise. And I don't mean we are having a small disagreement. It is as if you completely misunderstand most of the manga.


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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> People keep forgetting that actions speak louder than words. Madara says he will be in trouble, but jumps up and faces Gai without even attempting to attack him. Gets hit 4 or 5 times, bleeds a little and then asks Gai what else he's got.
> 
> Madara is clearly getting stomped and is very worried right now.



Madara compared this to the adrenaline he got with Hashirama, a Shinobi vastly superior to the Gokage, and what's more notably is that Gai is making a much stronger version of Madara feel the same adrenaline Hashirama made a weaker form feel.

I don't know how we can deny Eight gates Gai's feats and hype, that eclipses that of the Gokage.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Madara compared this to the adrenaline he got with Hashirama, a Shinobi vastly superior to the Gokage, and what's more notably is that Gai is making a much stronger version of Madara feel the same adrenaline Hashirama made a weaker form feel.



Not sure what that changes exactly. Madara is seeing a jutsu in action he has never seen before. Sure, the hype sounds nice but what about the actions?

Madara isn't even fighting back and before he encircled himself completely only seemed even half hearted in defending himself.

Vs Hashirama he seemed to actually put effort into the fight.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Not sure what that changes exactly. Madara is seeing a jutsu in action he has never seen before. Sure, the hype sounds nice but what about the actions?
> 
> Madara isn't even fighting back and before he encircled himself completely only seemed even half hearted in defending himself.
> 
> Vs Hashirama he seemed to actually put effort into the fight.



Madara fought back. He tried to block Gai and was buried several meters below the ground when Gai's speed outmaneuvered him.

Madara tried to defend himself, and the only reason he couldn't do so was because Gai was being so fast that he could not do much, it is clearly shown when Madara says "I cannot move" until he decides to turtle inside his shield.

I don't know what actions. Actions has Madara bleeding and trying to fight back but not being able to, and his words puts Gai's hype above Hashirama, since it's not the same version.

Also, Madara knows about the eight gate and how powerful it makes you.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> You don't need to be able to trace him, you need to be able to counter him, and they can do that. You attack where he is going as opposed to where he is. I believe I already pointed this out to you as well.
> 
> Bee and Ei couldn't follow Minato's movement speed but they were still prepared to counter it. That was 2 on 1 vs someone who can go from point A to B faster than Gai. Now it is 5 on 1.




Attack where he is going...?  Upon entering the 8th Gate, he will become a blur. There will be no reliable way for them to track where he will end up, because Gai's movements are not determined by positioned marks like Minato. B _could_ follow Minato's movement. That's how he intercepted him.... ck

It is interesting you bring Minato up though, as Jubidara embarrassed him, in Sage Mode no less, when he attempted to speed blitz with Hiraishin. Hiraishin helps Minato move between distances faster than anyone, but body speed is still what matters most in terms of finishing the job. 

Minato once killed fifty men in an instant. That's right. 50 to 1, yet Minato just flat out speed blitzed. The only thing those men saw was a "yellow flash", which is where the moniker comes from. The Gokage will face a similar situation against Gai. They will likely witness a flash of red before being torn apart at speeds their bodies cannot respond to. 



> Tsunade can likely take a hit or 2 and keep trucking given her healing and A may be able to take 1 as well. Gaara, Mei and Onoki would all die but Gaaras sand may blunt some impact if he uses enough.




Oh dear. Do please share details on which attack Tsunade or Ei have survived, or healed from, that is at all comparable to an attack that can merely _scratch_ Jubidara, let alone make him *vomit blood.*



> That isn't even accounting for their ability to fly and spread out forcing Gai to travel further distances thus giving them more time to react. Nor does it account for clones and confusing tactics to force Gai into indecision about who he is targeting. You have to account for ALL of that. Which you fail to do because you continue to rely on shoddy ABC logic.




I don't have to account for any of that, for the same reason that I don't have to account for the skills of the Sound 5 against Bijuu Mode Naruto, for example. They, _literally_, cannot move their bodies quick enough to take defensive action against Naruto before he simply runs at them and individually explodes them to pieces with mini-Bijuudama. Likewise, the Gokage are simply not at the physical level required to compete with Gai. Fucking Jubidara _barley_ was. 




> It still save him from a lot of attacks that Gai would be damaged by.




Like what?


----------



## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I have already stated my opinion on this.
> 
> 1. Kakashi referenced something similar way back in part 1. He told the rookies that opening the 8th gate grants you temporary power above the Hokage. My sense here is that he is saying the same thing. Gai is stronger than any individual amongst the Gokage. .


Here's the thing Cyphon. Even if we ignore the Gokage statement 8th-Gate is still stated to make Gai stronger than the Hokage; that means 8th-Gate Gai > Hashirama, who is turn > than the Gokage, by a relatively large margin, considering the Gokage were completely outclassed by P-Susano'o, while Hashirama defeated the P-Susano'o-Kyuubi Fusion. Beyond that 8th-Gate Gai is pressuring Juubidara, who is stronger than EMS-Madara by a mile, who in-turn was stronger than just P-Susnao'o which completely outclassed the Gokage.

Edit: or even another way to look at is BSM-Naruto + P-Susano'o-Sasuke + Kurama-Chakra-Rookies to overcome Juubito using the Black-Element. Juubidara is suppose to be even stronger than that. Yet 8th-Gate Gai was overcome Juubidara on his own; yes he had some help with the final blow, but even before that he was overcoming Juubidara's Black-Element, he just needed that help to do even more damage.

Anyway we look at this, 8th-Gate Gai is very clearly portrayed well above the Gokage



> 2. Even if I agree that he is talking about the complete package of the Gokage I believe it is in specific reference to facing Madara.


I agree that it was brought up specifically because he was facing Madara. Basically Kishimoto was like well the Gokage couldn't beat Madara, but 8th-Gate Gai is much stronger than them, therefore he might have a chance [even-though we know he doesn't], for the sake of tension.



> Gai has a skill set that allows him to harm Madara that the 5 Kage don't.


The 5 Kage can use physical attacks man



> However, that is Gai vs 1 opponent. Things change when their are 5 opponents all arguably as strong as Gai before the 8th gate. The 8th gate gives him a boost above any of them but all 5 attacking at once from different directions


I agree multiple individuals are a bitch to handle, but when you get to the level where your beyond Hashirama, it's starts to matter less



> It troubles me that you guys actually believe he can easily take out all 5. It shows you have very little understanding of how these fights work tactically and otherwise. And I don't mean we are having a small disagreement. It is as if you completely misunderstand most of the manga.


I don't misunderstand the manga at all. Madara overpowered the 5 Gokage w/ Raw-Power, why would it be different for 8th-Gate Gai whose suppose to be so powerful he's stronger than Hashirama. I also don't see the need to get so POD, you know me, and know that I do have a very deep understanding of the manga, and usually we agree on most things.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Madara fought back. He tried to block Gai and was buried several meters below the ground when Gai's speed outmaneuvered him.



The first time Gai attacked Madara blocked it. He was pushed into the ground but it didn't do anything to Madara as far as we know. 



> Madara tried to defend himself, and the only reason he couldn't do so was because Gai was being so fast that he could not do much, it is clearly shown when Madara says "I cannot move" until he decides to turtle inside his shield.
> 
> I don't know what actions. Actions has Madara bleeding and trying to fight back but not being able to, and his words puts Gai's hype above Hashirama, since it's not the same version.



Defending yourself is not the same as actively attacking. Madara literally jumped out of the hole and just stood there watching Gai. He even blocked Gai's 2nd attempt on him. So clearly he was able to target Gai in some form but he didn't try to attack him. 

I don't know how much more clear it can be that Madara isn't giving this his all. He wants to test his defenses and see what Gai has. Just break down the entire fight:



> Also, Madara knows about the eight gate and how powerful it makes you.



He knows of it but it seems he has never seen it in action. His last line was even asking Gai if he had more to offer. He went through all of that and basically scoffed at Gai.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> because Gai's movements are not determined by positioned marks like Minato.



Wrong. Gai has to attack 1 of 5 people so his positions are marked as clearly as Minatos were.



> Hiraishin helps Minato move between distances faster than anyone, but body speed is still what matters most in terms of finishing the job.



We are talking about covering distances, not body speed. I know Gai can attack faster, but we are talking about where he will end up. Doesn't matter if he can attack 10 times as fast as Minato if right as he is punching he is hit with Jinton. 



> Minato once killed fifty men in an instant. That's right. 50 to 1, yet Minato just flat out speed blitzed. The only thing those men saw was a "yellow flash", which is where the moniker comes from. The Gokage will face a similar situation against Gai.



Are you really trying to say that the level Minato is above fodder is the same level Gai is above the Gokage? 



> Oh dear. Do please share details on which attack Tsunade or Ei have survived, or healed from, that is at all comparable to an attack that can merely _scratch_ Jubidara, let alone make him *vomit blood.*



I don't need to because you have yet to establish how much more durable Madara is than them. Do we know that he is more durable at all? Sure, we agree he is but we have no statement or anything confirming such as far as I know. 



> Like what?



Tsunade punch, Ei punch, Meis jutsu etc?As far as I know none of those can break through Susanoo. I remember them breaking pieces of it but never getting through. 



Turrin said:


> Anyway we look at this, 8th-Gate Gai is very clearly portrayed well above the Gokage



Sure, I agree he is well above any 1 individual and maybe enough to take 2 or 3 if the combo is right and in this circumstance vs Madara he is much more effective. 



> The 5 Kage can use physical attacks man



Only 2 of the 5 have real Taijutsu prowess though. So it is really just 2 of them that are worth talking about. 



> I agree multiple individuals are a bitch to handle, but when you get to the level where your beyond Hashirama, it's starts to matter less



Not really. You are exaggerating the level difference firstly. Secondly, there is still a major difference between fighting 1 person and 5 when everyone on the battlefield is capable.



> I don't misunderstand the manga at all. Madara overpowered the 5 Gokage w/ Raw-Power, why would it be different for 8th-Gate Gai whose suppose to be so powerful he's stronger than Hashirama.



ABC logic Turrin. It is about the worst way to go about determining a fight. Especially when you aren't even talking about 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 1. You are talking about 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 5.


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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> The first time Gai attacked Madara blocked it. He was pushed into the ground but it didn't do anything to Madara as far as we know.



Except than dragging him deep into the ground. It didn'?t damage him much, that's for sure, but that was because Gai stopped attacking.



> Defending yourself is not the same as actively attacking. Madara literally jumped out of the hole and just stood there watching Gai. He even blocked Gai's 2nd attempt on him. So clearly he was able to target Gai in some form but he didn't try to attack him.



He blocked it with the chakra shield. How do you know he was able to hit Gai in that part? I mean, Madara was finishing everybody out cold since he was revived. From Tobirama, to Minato. I don't see a reason for him to hold back here.



> I don't know how much more clear it can be that Madara isn't giving this his all. He wants to test his defenses and see what Gai has. Just break down the entire fight:



His actions says otherwise.



> He knows of it but it seems he has never seen it in action. His last line was even asking Gai if he had more to offer. He went through all of that and basically scoffed at Gai.



Comparing it to the fight of Hashirama, bleeding after he tried to counter but couldn't move. Aside from that, how this translates of the Gokage countering it? Juudara and Gai's speed are roughly the same, if Gai is not palin faster.

If you compare the efforts of Tobirama, who was defeated by a weaker Madara, and Minato, who is above any of the Gokage individually, then you can tell how far Gai is from them.


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## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Wrong. Gai has to attack 1 of 5 people so his positions are marked as clearly as Minatos were.




The amount of people Gai has to attack



> Doesn't matter if he can attack 10 times as fast as Minato if right as he is punching he is hit with Jinton.




Onoki won't know where to aim Jinton. What don't you understand about "they cannot track him"...? 




> Are you really trying to say that the level Minato is above fodder is the same level Gai is above the Gokage?




I didn't exactly make the claim that Gai would kill 50 Kage in a blink. But more or less, the the concept remains the same. 

The 5 Kage be incapable of responding to Gai just as the Rock ninja were unable to respond to Minato. Or, like in the example I use already, just as Bijuu Mode Naruto would speed blitz and smack the Sound 5 in half without needing to be concerned with Tayuya's Mugen Onsa or Sakon's Kisei Kikai.



> I don't need to because you have yet to establish how much more durable Madara is than them. Do we know that he is more durable at all? Sure, we agree he is but we have no statement or anything confirming such as far as I know.




I'm simply asking you to provide durability, or even medical Ninjutsu feats that display these characters surviving attacks that can damage Madara (meaning they're far stronger than Hirodura). 

You're the one claiming Tsunade & Ei can survive. Now provide a basis. Healing from Magatama or tanking Chidori aren't a basis for your claims.



> Tsunade punch, Ei punch, Meis jutsu etc?As far as I know none of those can break through Susanoo. I remember them breaking pieces of it but never getting through.




Gai can simply avoid those even if Hachimon doesn't increase durability.


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## Rocky (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Wrong. Gai has to attack 1 of 5 people so his positions are marked as clearly as Minatos were.




The amount of people Gai has to attack has _nothing_ to do with predicting exactly whom he will attack at any particular time. It's nothing like B intercepting Minato. B could actually follow Minato's moments after the teleportation stopped, which allowed him to (somehow) intercept his attack on Ei.



> Doesn't matter if he can attack 10 times as fast as Minato if right as he is punching he is hit with Jinton.




Onoki won't know where to aim Jinton. What don't you understand about "they cannot track him"...? 



> Are you really trying to say that the level Minato is above fodder is the same level Gai is above the Gokage?




I didn't exactly make the claim that Gai would kill 50 Kage in a blink. But more or less, the the concept remains the same. 

The 5 Kage would be incapable of responding to Gai just as the Rock ninja were unable to respond to Minato. Or, like in the example I use already, just as Bijuu Mode Naruto would speed blitz and smack the Sound 5 in half without needing to be concerned with Tayuya's Mugen Onsa or Sakon's Kisei Kikai. 



> I don't need to because you have yet to establish how much more durable Madara is than them. Do we know that he is more durable at all? Sure, we agree he is but we have no statement or anything confirming such as far as I know.




I'm simply asking you to provide durability, or even medical Ninjutsu feats that display these characters surviving attacks that can damage Madara (meaning they're far stronger than Hirodura). 

You're the one claiming Tsunade & Ei can survive. Now provide a basis. Healing from Magatama or tanking Chidori aren't a basis for your claims.



> Tsunade punch, Ei punch, Meis jutsu etc…As far as I know none of those can break through Susanoo. I remember them breaking pieces of it but never getting through.




Gai can simply avoid those even if Hachimon doesn't increase durability.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Sure, I agree he is well above any 1 individual and maybe enough to take 2 or 3 if the combo is right and in this circumstance vs Madara he is much more effective.


Dude the problem is if your above Hashirama or  BSM-Naruto + P-Susano'o-Sasuke + Kurama-Chakra-Rookies, your well above all 5 Gokage, not just 1-3. This is of course supported by the statement itself. Also by the fact that Kakashi says Gai using 8th-Gate is 100x more powerful, which I seriously doubt the Gokage are 100x more powerful than Base-Gai; maybe 50x, but even that is really pushing it.



> Only 2 of the 5 have real Taijutsu prowess though. So it is really just 2 of them that are worth talking about.


Gaara's attacks are also physical, since he is manipulating pre-existing sand. Onoki isn't some Taijutsu fighter, but his weight control allows him to enhance other Taijutsu fighters. Mei is the only one who seems useless, though she could still possibly be helpful with demonic Mist.



> Not really. You are exaggerating the level difference firstly. Secondly, there is still a major difference between fighting 1 person and 5 when everyone on the battlefield is capable.


How am I exaggerating, I've offered multiple avenues with which we arrive at the same exact conclusion based on portrayal that 8th-Gate Gai is above the Gokage, by fairly large margin.



> ABC logic Turrin. It is about the worst way to go about determining a fight. Especially when you aren't even talking about 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 1. You are talking about 1 vs 1 and 1 vs 5.


I'm sorry but match ups hardly mean anything, anymore when Kishimoto will just pull out whatever he wants, for the character he feels is stronger to win. I also see no reason to believe the Gokage are a poor match up for 8th-Gate Gai anyway.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know he was able to hit Gai in that part?



I wasn't arguing he was able to. I said he didn't even attempt. He wasn't putting much effort into the fight. Why would a guy with so much offense play a purely defensive role unless he was trying to test and see what the other fight had to offer? 



> I don't see a reason for him to hold back here.



To see what more Gai could do. Whether you see reason or not he did hold back. He never even attempt to attack. 



> His actions says otherwise.



How exactly does that show Madara wasn't giving it his all?

Again, go back and read the fight again. Here are the steps:

- Madara blocks Gai and gets knocked into the ground.
- Madara says he will be in trouble if he gets hit with 4 or 5 of those
- Madara jumps right back up in Gai's face.

So let's stop here and analyze first. Why would someone who just said that taking those hits would be trouble jump right back out of the hole? Why have no defense prepared? Why not shoot a blast up at Gai or something?

If you want my honest answer I think this is just Kishi being Kishi. Who used Madara to hype Gai through statements but then doesn't really match that with the subsequent actions. Madara literally says he should avoid a direct confrontation and then jumps right back up there to confront Gai. No clones, no tricks and no 2nd thought. 

- Madara gets up there and says seeing the 8 gates is rare and he will indulge Gai and entertain a fight. 

- Madara then notices Gai coming at him by kicking the air.

Lets stop here again. Where is the same concern he showed in the hole once he got back out there? He isn't showing concern and his statements don't match the previous concern.

Secondly, if he is watching Gai climb up towards him why didn't he attack him? It couldn't be because he wanted to see more of what Gai had to offer could it?

- Next Gai starts circling Madara. We are given 1 panel of Madara following or attempting to follow him with his eyes.

- He accurately guesses or sees where Gai will attack from and throws up a shield. 

- After that he takes all of the hits and then throws up his full shield and actually tries to attack Gai for the first time. He gets hit by Gai once more.

After all of that he asks Gai if he can still fight. So Madara takes this "beating" you guys mention and is the one asking Gai if he can still fight. 

I just don't see what all of the fuss is about. What I got out of this so far is that Gai is really fucking fast. We already knew that. Speed however, can be countered. It always has been. Especially when there are 5 people around to counter it.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The amount of people Gai has to attack has _nothing_ to do with predicting exactly whom he will attack at any particular time. It's nothing like B intercepting Minato. B could actually follow Minato's moments after the teleportation stopped, which allowed him to (somehow) intercept his attack on Ei.



Ei had no clue exactly where Minato would end up either but he knew if he guessed right he had the speed to intercept. The same thing exists here. If they are in close enough proximity everyone might have a shot at intercepting in they guess right. 

And it is exactly like Bee intercepting Minato. Bee had no idea Minato was coming for him (or maybe he did predict it) and he had a defense ready to cover his back. Or an offense if you like. 

The same can be done vs Gai. They just have to get it right like Bee did.



> Onoki won't know where to aim Jinton. What don't you understand about "they cannot track him"...?



They don't need to track all of his movements. Like I said, it is about figuring out where he will end up. Might not be easy, but there are 5 of them working together. 



> I didn't exactly make the claim that Gai would kill 50 Kage in a blink. But more or less, the the concept remains the same.



Not really. Gai is not so far above any 1 Kage as Minato is above fodder. 



> The 5 Kage would be incapable of responding to Gai



No they wouldn't. We already saw Bee respond to Minato who can move at instant speeds and Ei dodge an Amaterasu that is also technically supposed to be instant. 



> You're the one claiming Tsunade & Ei can survive. Now provide a basis. Healing from Magatama or tanking Chidori aren't a basis for your claims.



I have already provided those examples. It is on you to accept them or not and provide some reasoning why we shouldn't.

Ei and Tsunade both survived a travel method that was supposed to rip them to shreds with minimal or no damage. Tsunade has survived and been healed from being split completely in half. 



> Gai can simply avoid those even if Hachimon doesn't increase durability.



He can avoid some but it isn't going to be easy with 5 potential attacks coming at once. Especially when there are those with some AEO like Jinton, Mei's moves and Gaara sand. 



Turrin said:


> Also by the fact that Kakashi says Gai using 8th-Gate is 100x more powerful, which I seriously doubt the Gokage are 100x more powerful than Base-Gai; maybe 50x, but even that is really pushing it.



I think the 100 times thing may be a slight exaggeration on Kishis part. 

That said, I understand your point but I don't agree. I think given the circumstances Gai is the better option than the 5 Kage but he is not stronger than the whole when facing them.

I think it is very true when we consider the fact that Ei can move at almost the same speeds with his amped up Shunshin. 



> Gaara's attacks are also physical, since he is manipulating pre-existing sand. Onoki isn't some Taijutsu fighter, but his weight control allows him to enhance other Taijutsu fighters. Mei is the only one who seems useless, though she could still possibly be helpful with demonic Mist.



I was under the impression they were specifically talking Taijutsu and Senjutsu when they said what could harm Madara. For example the sand can grab him and would then be crushing damage but punches and kicks are blunt force. I guess ultimately it amounts to the same thing. 



> I'm sorry but match ups hardly mean anything, anymore when Kishimoto will just pull out whatever he wants, for the character he feels is stronger to win. I also see no reason to believe the Gokage are a poor match up for 8th-Gate Gai anyway.



They still mean something. And it isn't specifically the Gokage that are a bad matchup for Gai. You can take any 5 of their level or around and they would be a worse matchup for him than fighting 1 individual.

Especially in this case where said individual is clearly holding back.


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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I wasn't arguing he was able to. I said he didn't even attempt. He wasn't putting much effort into the fight. Why would a guy with so much offense play a purely defensive role unless he was trying to test and see what the other fight had to offer?



Or maybe he couldn't hit him with the black balls because Gai was running circles around him.



> To see what more Gai could do. Whether you see reason or not he did hold back. He never even attempt to attack.



We actually don't know that.



> How exactly does that show Madara wasn't giving it his all?



Nobody is saying Madara is giving his "all". But Madara was doing much more than what he did against Minato and the others, hence why he compared this to his battle with Hashirama.



> Again, go back and read the fight again. Here are the steps:
> 
> - Madara blocks Gai and gets knocked into the ground.
> - Madara says he will be in trouble if he gets hit with 4 or 5 of those
> - Madara jumps right back up in Gai's face.



He flies and was not going to be near Gai.



> So let's stop here and analyze first. Why would someone who just said that taking those hits would be trouble jump right back out of the hole? Why have no defense prepared? Why not shoot a blast up at Gai or something?



You answered yourself. Because he didn't know that Gai could kick the air and close the distance. 



> If you want my honest answer I think this is just Kishi being Kishi. Who used Madara to hype Gai through statements but then doesn't really match that with the subsequent actions. Madara literally says he should avoid a direct confrontation and then jumps right back up there to confront Gai. No clones, no tricks and no 2nd thought.



You answered those yourself here again, why he jump right back to confront Gai? Because he didn't know Gai would close the distance. He got cocky, and was surprised again. And if Kishi hyped Gai with Juubi Jin Madara, then his hype is canonically superior than that of the Gokage.



> - Madara gets up there and says seeing the 8 gates is rare and he will indulge Gai and entertain a fight.



Yeah, not knowing what would happen, feeling safe in the air.



> - Madara then notices Gai coming at him by kicking the air.



Then runs circles around him, attacks and Madara blocks. Gai didn't give him chance to attack here.



> Lets stop here again. Where is the same concern he showed in the hole once he got back out there? He isn't showing concern and his statements don't match the previous concern.



What? Madara was concerned. The "He's coming!" with a worried face is clearly visible, and after that he turtles behind his shield to protect himself from Gai's attacks, wich can prove he couldn't do much in that part, until proven otherwise.



> Secondly, if he is watching Gai climb up towards him why didn't he attack him? It couldn't be because he wanted to see more of what Gai had to offer could it?



This is answered above. Gai was running circles around him. If Madara didn't attack and was keeping an eye on him doesn't indicate he could, you are assuming he could hit Gai when he was moving so fast nonstop.



> - Next Gai starts circling Madara. We are given 1 panel of Madara following or attempting to follow him with his eyes.



Indeed.



> - He accurately guesses or sees where Gai will attack from and throws up a shield.



He sees the attack and protects himself, yeah.



> - After that he takes all of the hits and then throws up his full shield and actually tries to attack Gai for the first time. He gets hit by Gai once more.



Ahm, no. He is hit before he could even put his shield around him to protect himself.



> After all of that he asks Gai if he can still fight. So Madara takes this "beating" you guys mention and is the one asking Gai if he can still fight.



It's the Juubi Jin, the strongest character in the series. But doesn't take the fact that Gai speed handled him, and even if Madara could react accordingly (Not true at all since he couldn't protect himself from EE), then this by no means indicates any of the Gokage can.



> I just don't see what all of the fuss is about. What I got out of this so far is that Gai is really fucking fast. We already knew that. Speed however, can be countered. It always has been. Especially when there are 5 people around to counter it.



5 people that won't be able to keep track on him, 5 people doing nothing.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I think the 100 times thing may be a slight exaggeration on Kishis part.
> 
> That said, I understand your point but I don't agree. I think given the circumstances Gai is the better option than the 5 Kage but he is not stronger than the whole when facing them.


Cyphon I struggle to see how anyone can prove they are stronger than the Gokage in your eyes if all of the things I cite in-favor of Gai does not count. I think you better watch yourself, before you go the way of Itachi-fans, I.E. going to far out of your way to justify statements/portrayal, instead of accepting the much more straight-forward and supported explanation; the way Itachi-fans do with the Itachi Statement about how he would perform against Jiriaya. Not saying this to be a dick, just saying it because your one of my favorite posters & I don't want you to loose any credibility.



> I think it is very true when we consider the fact that Ei can move at almost the same speeds with his amped up Shunshin.


Ei is not moving at the same speeds as 8th-Gate Gai. But maybe i've misinterpreted what you mean.



> I was under the impression they were specifically talking Taijutsu and Senjutsu when they said what could harm Madara. For example the sand can grab him and would then be crushing damage but punches and kicks are blunt force. I guess ultimately it amounts to the same thing.


I think they meant physical attacks in general



> They still mean something. And it isn't specifically the Gokage that are a bad matchup for Gai. You can take any 5 of their level or around and they would be a worse matchup for him than fighting 1 individual.


I don't see why more than 1 individual is a poor match up for Gai ether.



> Especially in this case where said individual is clearly holding back.


I think it's less holding back and more he underestimated 8th-Gate Gai, but ether way Juubidara even when not dishing out his best is vastly superior to the Gokage.


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## Cyphon (Mar 23, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Or maybe he couldn't hit him with the black balls because Gai was running circles around him.



Seems unlikely given the fact that he watched Gai climb up to him and was able to follow him well enough to block his first attack.



> Nobody is saying Madara is giving his "all".



Okay then. So it basically ends there. You are trying to compare what an opponent not fighting for real is like compared to 5 people who would be actively trying to kill Gai. It doesn't work.

You can't use what he is doing here to say he would be successful in the other fight. 



> Then runs circles around him, attacks and Madara blocks. Gai didn't give him chance to attack here.



He did give him a chance when he was climbing up to him and the whole time he was running in circles. Madara chose not to attack though. 



> What? Madara was concerned. The "He's coming!"



Wrong part of the fight. I am talking about when Gai is kicking into the air and then starts running in circles there is no concern from Madara despite saying he should avoid fighting Gai directly. The most we get is a "he really is fast?." before he proceeds to block Gai.

Yes, he says the "he's coming" part after that but where was the concern again up to that point. If he was so concerned about his life why didn't he shell up as soon as he saying Gai climbing up to him and again, why not just attack him?

The actions make no sense for someone who is truly concerned with their wellbeing. 



> Ahm, no. He is hit before he could even put his shield around him to protect himself.



That is exactly what I said. He took the hits and then put his shell up. Read carefully please. 



> 5 people that won't be able to keep track on him, 5 people doing nothing.



You don't need to be able to keep track of him. We have seen this multiple times throughout the manga.


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## Cyphon (Mar 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Cyphon I struggle to see how anyone can prove they are stronger than the Gokage in your eyes if all of the things I cite in-favor of Gai does not count.



What did I say didn't count? Gai has shown incredible speed and power. They both count. Doesn't save him if he gets hit though. Doesn't keep the Gokage from being able to attack him.  



> Ei is not moving at the same speeds as 8th-Gate Gai. But maybe i've misinterpreted what you mean.



Top speed Ei can move about as fast as 8 gated Gai. Not constantly but with his Shunshin. Gai is using pure physical speed right now to continuously move at Ei Shunshin speed is more or less what I am saying. 



> I don't see why more than 1 individual is a poor match up for Gai ether.



Because more than 1 person is a worse matchup for anyone. And in this case you are using a 1 on 1 fight to determine the outcome on a 5 on 1 while ignoring not only the team tactics but Gai's tactics as well. 

How would he handle 5 opponents at such a high level? We have seen him show great focus when he can aim all his attention on 1 target and charge like a bull but what happens when their are clones, people in the air, people on the ground, attacks coming from the left and right etc???



> I think it's less holding back and more he underestimated 8th-Gate Gai, but ether way Juubidara even when not dishing out his best is vastly superior to the Gokage.



Underestimation or not he isn't exactly giving 100%


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## Rocky (Mar 24, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Ei had no clue exactly where Minato would end up either but *he knew if he guessed right he had the speed to intercept. *The same thing exists here. If they are in close enough proximity everyone might have a shot at intercepting in they guess right.



The 5 Kage don't have the speed, foot or attack, to intercept. They don't have the ability to do _anything_ before he kills them.



> it is exactly like Bee intercepting Minato. Bee had no idea Minato was coming for him (or maybe he did predict it) and he had a defense ready to cover his back. Or an offense if you like.
> 
> The same can be done vs Gai. They just have to get it right like Bee did.




B had his defense up before Minato got there. That is because he knew exactly when Minato was going to move; the Raikage made sure of that.



> They don't need to track all of his movements. Like I said, it is about figuring out where he will end up. Might not be easy, but there are 5 of them working together.




They will all be dead by the time he "ends up" anywhere. Gai doesn't have to stop moving for nearly as long as someone like Minato would, because Minato is physically not all that fast (comparatively).

You don't understand the concept of speed. FOR THE THIRD TIME, Gai blitzes and kills them all in the same fashion that Naruto would eradicate the Sound 5. Naruto wouldn't have to worry about being put in Mugen Onsa or getting an arrow to the jaw while he kills Jirobo. He would blitz and and individually mini-Bijuu-bomb-blow them the hell up before they could muster any sort of guard. Exactly like how Base Madara was able to blitz both Sai & SM Naruto before they realized it.



> Not really. Gai is not so far above any 1 Kage as Minato is above fodder.




Personally, I think 1 standard Kage is cannon fodder to someone of even Edo Madara's level, so I disagree. 



> No they wouldn't. We already saw Bee respond to Minato who can move at instant speeds and Ei dodge an Amaterasu that is also technically supposed to be instant.




B never responded to instantaneous speed.  He responded to Minato's arm speed. If you mean the second time, I said that B responded to (predicted) Hiraishin before Minato actually used it.

Amaterasu likewise isn't instantaneous. It appears at the focal point of the user's vision, meaning all you need to avoid it is speed faster than the user's eye can track.



> Ei and Tsunade both survived a travel method that was supposed to rip them to shreds with minimal or no damage. Tsunade has survived and been healed from being split completely in half.




Tsunade needed assistance to heal herself from being split in half IIRC, and Mubui's transport technique was weaker than Chidori. 



> He can avoid some but it isn't going to be easy with 5 potential attacks coming at once. Especially when there are those with some AEO like Jinton, Mei's moves and Gaara sand.




Why would any of that be difficult to avoid. Who cares how many attacks are coming at once? They're all far too slow to matter.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> What did I say didn't count? Gai has shown incredible speed and power. They both count. Doesn't save him if he gets hit though. Doesn't keep the Gokage from being able to attack him.


Apparently the portrayal of 8th-Gate Gai being above the Gokage from multiple different angles doesn't count. 



> Top speed Ei can move about as fast as 8 gated Gai. Not constantly but with his Shunshin. Gai is using pure physical speed right now to continuously move at Ei Shunshin speed is more or less what I am saying.


Dude, you know this isn't supported by anything right. 8th-Gate Gai is overwhelming Juubidara with his speed, who is far faster than Ei could ever dream of being. 



> Because more than 1 person is a worse matchup for anyone. And in this case you are using a 1 on 1 fight to determine the outcome on a 5 on 1 while ignoring not only the team tactics but Gai's tactics as well.
> 
> How would he handle 5 opponents at such a high level? We have seen him show great focus when he can aim all his attention on 1 target and charge like a bull but what happens when their are clones, people in the air, people on the ground, attacks coming from the left and right etc???


Dude this same logic can be applied to SO6P, but we know it's not the case. Gai can dish out 5 attacks in a ridiculously short period of time, that's all 5 of the Gokage down in an instant as none of them are surviving Gai's attacks, except perhaps Tsunade [and that's giving her a huge amount of credit], And if Tsunade is left alone against Gai she is done anyway.



> Underestimation or not he isn't exactly giving 100%


Like I said it really doesn't matter.


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## Rocky (Mar 24, 2014)

You know Cyphon, Wally West (The Flash) has standard, human durability. Do you think five combatants of a Kage's level would defeat him?


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## Cyphon (Mar 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The 5 Kage don't have the speed, foot or attack, to intercept. They don't have the ability to do _anything_ before he kills them.



You are wrong but that's okay. Like I said before, in time the hype will die down and you will realize you were in a fog of love. 



> B had his defense up before Minato got there. That is because he knew exactly when Minato was going to move, because the Raikage was actively pressuring them.



There is no way Bee could know exactly where Minato was going. He made an educated guess. Just like the Kage could do with Gai. 



> You don't understand the concept of speed.



 Pot meet kettle. He is black like you but simply doesn't realize?..



> B never responded to instantaneous speed.  He responded to Minato's arm speed. As I said, B responded to (predicted) Hiraishin before Minato actually used it.



Which is the same thing as responding to instantaneous speed. Even if Minato attacked in the very instant he landed Bee would have had him. 

The Kage have the ability and chance to do the same with Gai. 



> Amaterasu likewise isn't instantaneous. It appears at the focal point of the user's vision, meaning all you need to avoid it is speed faster than the user's eye can track.



I said "technically" whatever the user looks at ignites. It really doesn't get much faster. Especially considering Sasuke looked at Ei and used the jutsu before Ei ever moved. 



> Tsunade needed assistance to heal herself from being split in half IIRC, and Mubui's transport technique was weaker than Chidori.



Katsuya is available in this battle. So Gai has to do enough damage to 5 people that Katsuya can't heal them. Hard to imagine he could do much worse than splitting them all in half. 



> Why would any of that be difficult to avoid. Who cares how many attacks are coming at once? They're all far too slow to matter.



You don't understand the concept of fighting at all. Or sports. 

If you know where someone is going or have a better angle you don't have to be faster. 

Just like Bee isn't faster than Minato but he knew where to have his attack waiting so no matter how fast Minato was it didn't matter.


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## Cyphon (Mar 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Apparently the portrayal of 8th-Gate Gai being above the Gokage from multiple different angles doesn't count.



I don't recall saying it doesn't count. 



> Dude, you know this isn't supported by anything right. 8th-Gate Gai is overwhelming Juubidara with his speed, who is far faster than Ei could ever dream of being.



I don't know what you are trying to argue here. I am saying 8 gate Gai is faster than Ei. But Ei's top shunshin speed is close to Gai's constant speed. I am talking 1 short burst of speed from Ei here. Not arguing that he could keep running circles with Gai. 



> that's all 5 of the Gokage down in an instant as none of them are surviving Gai's attacks, except perhaps Tsunade [and that's giving her a huge amount of credit], And if Tsunade is left alone against Gai she is done anyway.
> 
> You are assuming they are all conveniently placed for Gai and nothing else is happening and forgetting Katsuya is available. She adds Tsunade level healing to everyone.
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Mar 24, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> You are wrong but that's okay. Like I said before, in time the hype will die down and you will realize you were in a fog of love.




Except I'm not worng. Gai isn't going to get any slower and The five Kage aren't going to get any faster. 




> There is no way Bee could know exactly where Minato was going. He made an educated guess. Just like the Kage could do with Gai.




He did indeed. 

....but the five Kage will _not have time _to make any educated guesses before Gai has killed them all. What don't you understand about that. 



> Which is the same thing as responding to instantaneous speed. Even if Minato attacked in the very instant he landed Bee would have had him.
> 
> The Kage have the ability and chance to do the same with Gai.




ck

So how about that analogy with BM Naruto that you've ignored thrice now?



> Especially considering Sasuke looked at Ei and used the jutsu before Ei ever moved.




And then Ei moved out of Sasuke vision so Amaterasu didn't form on him. What's your point? MS Sasuke's vision < Gai.



> Hard to imagine he could do much worse than splitting them all in half.




Punching them in the face.




> Just like Bee isn't faster than Minato but he knew where to have his attack waiting so no matter how fast Minato was it didn't matter.




That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. "No matter how fast you are." Bahahahah.

The difference between Minato and 8th Gated Gai is that that Gai can move fast enough to blitz before defense is attempted. Unless you're Jubidara, which in that case he just punches through it or goes around.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I don't recall saying it doesn't count.
> .


So than can you understand why I believe 8th-Gate Gai beats the Gokage, considering he is:

A) Portrayed to be stronger than Gokage
B) Portrayed to be stronger than Hashirama
C) Portrayed to be stronger than BSM-Naruto + P-Susano'o-Sasuke + Kurama-Chakra-Rookies
D) Portrayed to be 100x stronger than Base-Gai



> don't know what you are trying to argue here. I am saying 8 gate Gai is faster than Ei. But Ei's top shunshin speed is close to Gai's constant speed. I am talking 1 short burst of speed from Ei here. Not arguing that he could keep running circles with Gai.


Nah dude Ei's Shunshin speed is nowhere near 8th-Gate Gai's speed. Edo-Madara was reacting to Ei's Shunshin speed and so was Minato. Juubidara, can't even keep up with 8th-Gate Gai. He been portrayed as much faster than Ei. Heck even 7th-Gate Gai was portrayed as much faster than Ei, considering Gaara was astonished by 7th-Gate Gai's movement speed, in a way he was never astonished by Ei's speed, even with Shunshin and Onoki backpacking him to increase his speed further.



> You are assuming they are all conveniently placed for Gai and nothing else is happening and forgetting Katsuya is available. She adds Tsunade level healing to everyone.


Actually I apologize that was a bit to feat-base for my liking anyway (old habits die hard). Honestly I don't know how 8th-Gate Gai vs Gokage would play out exactly, but by portrayed Gokage get smashed by 8th-Gates raw power.



> In any case it doesn't matter Turrin. I really am bored of arguing this. We are just going to go in circles.
> 
> My only point I want you to keep in mind is that you can't take a 1 on 1 fight and judge how that person would do in a 5 on 1. It absolutely doesn't work. Outside of that believe what you want. The hype will die down and people will get a clearer grasp here eventually.
> 
> I am off to bed.


Typically I agree with you, but when the power is so much greater than that it does apply.


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## Wolfstein (Mar 24, 2014)

Ei: Arrogantly charges in and receives his elephant from pure ignorance, after learning what true speed is.

Mei: Spontaneously dies from Gai's massive reiatsu. Yes you read that correctly.

Tsunade: Firmly believes that Creation Rebirth can save her and attempts to tank the Elephant. Lul.

Onoki: Propels himself in the air only to be pursued by Guy, who can also reach the heavens. The old fart is reduced to nothing.

Gaara: Like Tsunade, relies on his ultimate defense which is shat upon, along with his flesh and skeleton, in that specific order.


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, aegon-rokudo makes the translation sound even worse, for people that were arguing against Gai.

kaka: by removing all the limits you are able to obtain a *power that surpasses that of the five kages of several tens of times*\\


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## Orochibuto (Mar 24, 2014)

Tens of times; ouch.


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## Veo (Mar 28, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Conditions: Gai has infinite 8th Gate access for this match and will not die from the gates.



Well, you have here the most powerful character of the series so far, bar Naruto, Sasuke, Madara and Hashirama.

This version of Gai can take on groups of kages or Akatsukis, just as the above would do.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm still confident Ei & Onoki can hang.


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## LostSelf (Mar 29, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> I'm still confident Ei & Onoki can hang.



Hang themselves in a tree to avoid the suffering of Gai's attacks you mean?

Yeah, i agree.


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## Super Chief (Apr 6, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Gai's willingness to fight Madara proves exactly nothing.
> 
> Context is king. Take another look at the fight. Madara is simply excited to be witnessing a rare jutsu and he's so cocky he doesn't even know for sure whether he could tank the Evening Elephant. He seems to be curious to find out. This page says it all.
> 
> ...



Looks like I was right after all. The latest chapter just proves Madara is on a power trip.


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## SSMG (Apr 6, 2014)

The latest chapter proved EE > a madara who was serious.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The latest chapter proved EE > a madara who was serious.



latest chapter proved that 8th gated Gai can't beat madara even with the help of Kakashi, Gaara and lee if he doesn't use midnight moth.


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## SSMG (Apr 6, 2014)

Cant kill =\= cant beat. 

he beat him on screen when madara wasnt trying and he beat him some more off acreen when he was serious.

edit also those people you named werent helping guy in the latest chapter?


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## StickaStick (Apr 6, 2014)

Last chapter was off-paneled so we don't know what happened. Regardless Gai would have stopped three chapters ago without help. At that point he was basically DQ'd as far as a 1v1 fight is concerned.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 6, 2014)

Gai can't beat Madara, but level of damage he managed to inflict onto him with his attacks is far above anything the Gokage could possibly hope to achieve.


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## U mad bro (Apr 6, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Looks like I was right after all. The latest chapter just proves Madara is on a power trip.



Of course he is. He should be able to perform jutsu On The Same level as juubito. Yet he decides to fight holding back against an opponent whose jutsu can break his defense. Keep in mind he should be able to no sell bijuudama. Yet people are harping like evening elephant is on that level. Law all over again good times.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Cant kill =\= cant beat.
> 
> he beat him on screen when madara wasnt trying and he beat him some more off acreen when he was serious.
> 
> edit also those people you named werent helping guy in the latest chapter?



if by beat you mean 'gave him a beating' or 'hurt him a lot' then sure, Gai did 'beat' Madara.  However if you mean 'beat' as in defeated him, then obviously Gai didn't defeat Madara, Madara is still standing and has a lot of fight left in him.  And of course the only way you could argue Gai > Madara based on the last chapter is if Gai defeated madara, which he didn't.

Also, those people i mentioned were helping Gai in the latest chapter unless Kakashi gets out of breath from just standing on the side and doing nothing.  Or unless, we haven't been shown that Gai needs the help of Kakashi, Gaara, lee and minato in order to land his solid hits on Madara.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, the entire portion of the fight was offpaneled so you can't say that them not being shown helping on panel in an offpanel fight = they weren't helping.


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## SSMG (Apr 6, 2014)

Opps my i forgot lee kakashi and gaara were in that newest chapter. my mistake.


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Whoever thinks Madara is serious right is stupid.  He is concerned, but anxious to see what the 8 gates has to offer .we all know that madara could easily beat Gai if that was his intent, just look at how he did Tobirama, naruto , Hashirama , sasuke , and the bijuu, that was Madara being at least 90% serious about winning a fight. And anyone who knows Madara, knows that he's battle thirsty and gets high off of adrenaline from fighting. That being said, Gai will still manage to hurt him and cause minimal damage, eternal bleeding , bruised faced , torn apart bijuu cloak etc. And madara will just ask for more, but looking at the final page of last chapter, night moth will actually cause serious damage.


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## J★J♥ (Apr 7, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Whoever thinks Madara is serious right is stupid.  He is concerned, but anxious to see what the 8 gates has to offer .we all know that madara could easily beat Gai if that was his intent, just look at how he did Tobirama, naruto , Hashirama , sasuke , and the bijuu, that was Madara being at least 90% serious about winning a fight. And anyone who knows Madara, knows that he's battle thirsty and gets high off of adrenaline from fighting. That being said, Gai will still manage to hurt him and cause minimal damage, eternal bleeding , bruised faced , torn apart bijuu cloak etc. And madara will just ask for more, but looking at the final page of last chapter, night moth will actually cause serious damage.



You are an idiot.
*Zetsu is able to go right through the aura as if it's not there.*


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 7, 2014)

Madara openly admitted, the last fight he had so much fun was when he vs hashirama, madara right now is also much stronger then he was when he fought hashirama, that should give you a clue to where 8gated gai level is.


We can sit here and try to downplay gai all day, but the fact is madara trolled everybody he faced so far after his return except gai, with that being said, the gokage, gets steamrolled, madara was unable to defend himself from Gai's attack so they def wont be able to.



Kishi makes things very clear for us, it's up to us to accept it or not


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> You are an idiot.
> *Zetsu is able to go right through the aura as if it's not there.*



How am I Ann idiot if I stated that he was concerned?


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Madara openly admitted, the last fight he had so much fun was when he vs hashirama, madara right now is also much stronger then he was when he fought hashirama, that should give you a clue to where 8gated gai level is.
> 
> 
> We can sit here and try to downplay gai all day, but the fact is madara trolled everybody he faced so far after his return except gai, with that being said, the gokage, gets steamrolled, madara was unable to defend himself from Gai's attack so they def wont be able to.
> ...



Yeah, I'm starting to believe that people are actually mad that 8 gates ended up this strong.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 7, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Yeah, I'm starting to believe that people are actually mad that 8 gates ended up this strong.



People are def mad bro, which makes no sense to me, he dies after he uses the move, how could you expect it not to be op lol


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Look up Muhammad  Ali vs Michael Dokes.  that's how madara is playing out this fight.


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> People are def mad bro, which makes no sense to me, he dies after he uses the move, how could you expect it not to be op lol



Yes, exactly. Some are still claiming that he's not even that fast because Lee threw a kunai , Minato teleported to it and back , and kakashi used kamui all before he got to Madara. all of that was obviously PIS (Idk what that means lol) and to show teamwork between the characters that were around Madara, and the genius of Minato. Then people go on to criticise the fact that he dies , which we all know , then say that it's not worth it , which it actually is. But Idk I'm glad we get to see someone around this power other than the main characters.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 7, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Yes, exactly. Some are still claiming that he's not even that fast because Lee threw a kunai , Minato teleported to it and back , and kakashi used kamui all before he got to Madara. all of that was obviously PIS (Idk what that means lol) and to show teamwork between the characters that were around Madara, and the genius of Minato. Then people go on to criticise the fact that he dies , which we all know , then say that it's not worth it , which it actually is. But Idk I'm glad we get to see someone around this power other than the main characters.



Madara is playing the Ali role because he has no choice, he has the durability to tank Gia's hits but can't keep up.


Minato can get from point a to point b faster then gai, but doesn't keep the same speed when he attacks, gai moves almost as fast as minato's FTG but keeps his speed when he attacks, which is why he is pin balling madara, and all minato's did was get his arm cut off. Gai is doing what nobody can right now, and deserves his moment in the sun until naruto and sasuke come back with there new power ups


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Madara is playing the Ali role because he has no choice, he has the durability to tank Gia's hits but can't keep up.
> 
> 
> Minato can get from point a to point b faster then gai, but doesn't keep the same speed when he attacks, gai moves almost as fast as minato's FTG but keeps his speed when he attacks, which is why he is pin balling madara, and all minato's did was get his arm cut off. Gai is doing what nobody can right now, and deserves his moment in the sun until naruto and sasuke come back with there new power ups



At least you get it.


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## Sabco (Apr 8, 2014)

Like I always say

5 *******  = 5 Night Elephants


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## Bansai (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm convinced that the Gokage is being underestimated too much in the NBD, but still, he obviously wins. The Gokage couldn't keep up with Edo Madara while Gai is giving a much stronger version of Madara a good fight right now. It's obvious that he can win this. No member of the Gokage has an ability that could kill him in this state. He's strong and fast enough to bare Tsunade's punches, fast enough to dodge Jinton, fast enough to dodge A's attacks, fast enough to dodge Mei Terumi's shitty jutsus and Gaara's sand won't be a problem either.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Apr 8, 2014)

Gai stomps the living hell out of them. He's capable of damaging Juudara who's leagues upon leagues above Edo Madara whom the Kages got their ass handed to them.


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## SSMG (Apr 8, 2014)

Seeing as how it was stated by kakashi that guy surpassed these same five kage with his eighth gate... why is this a topic?


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## Bonly (Apr 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Seeing as how it was stated by kakashi that guy surpassed these same five kage with his eighth gate... why is this a topic?



Well it's not much of a topic anymore really


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

It wasn't debatable before this chapter. With Night Moth (or Night "Guy"), the 5 Kage would resemble a group of bluebirds hit by a space shuttle.


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## StickaStick (Apr 9, 2014)

Before it was neg diff.

Now it's neg diff. x100.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

I am bumping this thread


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## Jad (Apr 11, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> I am bumping this thread



It had to be done


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