# [The Unfinished Battle] Rinnegan Obito & Edo Madara vs Naruto, Bee & The Masters.



## Jak N Blak (Sep 14, 2013)

I just realized the battle never got to conclude. Juubi and the alliance came and interrupted changing the whole dynamic.

Location: Cannon
Knowledge: Cannon
Mindsets: Cannon
Start Distance: Cannon
Restrictions: Fuck that shit. I want an honest opinion as to how you guys think the fight would have ended.
JUUBI NOR THE ALLIANCE CAN JOIN THE FIGHT.

Again - Its Rinnegan Obito and Madara vs The Masters & The Jins

Three scenarios:

Scenario 1 - How would the fight continue going after Gai's Afternoon Tiger to Madara?
Scenario 2 - Everyone starts fresh: Obito has the Jins and Shit.
Scenario 3 - Naruto is at the level he is at currently at in the manga at the beginning of this fight.

So how would it go down? Would Obito still lose to Kakashi? How long would it have taken Naruto to figure out he use BSM? How long would Madara keep playing around? Etc.

Go


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## Vergil642 (Sep 15, 2013)

Obito not crippled by plot should really be able to crush Kakashi with ranged Rinnegan tomfoolery and Madara-sized Katons.

Madara already showed he can handle BM Naruto with the Moku-dragon, which means Bee's Bijuu mode is also basically useless, and a few swipes from Perfect Susanoo would end everything on the field that isn't Obito.

The Uchihahahaha Duo kill them, harvest the Bijuu and then squabble over who gets to use Infinite Tsukuyomi.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't understand.




Vergil642 said:


> Madara already showed he can handle BM Naruto with the Moku-dragon



This is like saying Kabuto can handle Itachi with Hakugeki. 

Suppression worked momentarily, but Naruto eventually handled it.



> and a few swipes from Perfect Susanoo would end everything on the field that isn't Obito.



Naruto defended himself against the firepower of 5 Bijuu and the Ten-Tails. Perfect Susano'o has far less firepower than that.



> Obito not crippled by plot should really be able to crush Kakashi with ranged Rinnegan tomfoolery and Madara-sized Katons.



 The Plot Card.

Kakashi could've just left the Kamui dimension, got another shroud from Naruto, and continued to aid in the battle against the Ten-Tails.

Obito would have trouble against Shrouded Gai & Shrouded Kakashi, while Madara would certainly have trouble against Bijuu Mode Naruto & Shrouded Bee.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi could've just left the Kamui dimension, got another shroud from Naruto, and continued to aid in the battle against the Ten-Tails.



Not against an Obito unaffected by resolve issues, plot, etc. who would have stuck with the weapon he used in the genjutsu instead of switching to that rod, resulting in Kakashi's death.

And not used such a tiny Katon. . .


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto defended himself against the firepower of 5 Bijuu and the Ten-Tails. Perfect Susano'o has far less firepower than that.



Individually. Their powers were not added up together in those Bijudamas. He wasn't singing the same tune when they did charge their Bijudamas together. Then he used his actual offense, which is much better than his defense mind you. 

Bijudama's firepower is different from Perfect Susano'o's. An explosion is different from a cut. A cut is more concentrated, so actually it has a better shot against a Bijudama. Example is that PS destroyed Mokujin and Mokuton hands where Kurama's 100% Bijudama failed. BM Naruto loses miserably to Edo Madara.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Not against an Obito unaffected by resolve issues, plot, etc. who would have stuck with the weapon he used in the genjutsu instead of switching to that rod, resulting in Kakashi's death.
> 
> And not used such a tiny Katon. . .



Kakashi wouldn't have fought Obito outmatched like that. He would've left with Kamui.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Individually. Their powers were not added up together in those Bijudamas. He wasn't singing the same tune when they did charge their Bijudamas together. Then he used his actual offense, which is much better than his defense mind you.



First off, offense =/= defense. The common saying is that a good defense makes for a good offense, but offense cannot substitute for defense. It's impossible by definition. 

Second, Naruto could sit there with his tails up and Perfect Susano'o couldn't harm him. Those tails blocked attacks from the Ten-Tails.



> Bijudama's firepower is different from Perfect Susano'o's. An explosion is different from a cut. A cut is more concentrated, so actually it has a better shot against a Bijudama.



I dunno man, I like my chances taking a sword to the gut over cooking a frag grenade till it goes off.  

Naruto's dealt with a lot more firepower so far than just Mountain Busting. Even Nagato has more firepower than that. Saying Susano'o will be overwhelming is comical at best.



> Example is that PS destroyed Mokujin and Mokuton hands where Kurama's 100% Bijudama failed. BM Naruto loses miserably to Edo Madara.



Naruto's Bijuudama is much bigger (and stronger) than anything Kurama used during the fight with Hashirama. Kurama was _capable_ of more, but never did anything more. Naruto's Bijuudama dwarfed 5 full sized Bijuu, while the 100% Kyuubi's Bijuudama was barley bigger than its own head.

Also, Kurama's Bijuudama destroyed every single one of Hashirama's Mokuton creations except for the Hōbi when it exploded. Since Naruto's is too big to catch, Hashirama faces a problem against it. Madara will too, since his defense hasn't really shown to be superior.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Second, Naruto could sit there with his tails up and Perfect Susano'o couldn't harm him. Those tails blocked attacks from the Ten-Tails.



That's blatant BS. Yes, he blocked an attack from the Juubi with minimal damage, but so has Madara. Madara survived the Tempest with Ribcage Susano'o alone. Naruto...ended up like this. Why the others didn't get hurt as bad as Naruto with an inferior cloak? I'm guessing because Naruto was closer to the Juubi like Madara. But Madara's Susano'o completely protected him.

And yes, that was KM, not BM, but to suggest that Naruto will be unharmed by Perfect Susano'o is ridiculous. PS does a different type of damage than a Bijudama, a cutting damage. Cutting and piercing has done a much better job of piercing through ultimate defenses than impact and concussive damage. 

And Bijudama's actual killing power has been retconned big time. i.e KB's Bijudama not killing Suigetsu and Team Taka, 6TK Naruto's Bijudama not killing Deva Path even though a Rasengan took it out, etc. 

Perfect Susano'o's cutting power has taken out Mokujin, which has ridiculous durability mind you.




> Naruto's dealt with a lot more firepower so far than just Mountain Busting. Even Nagato has more firepower than that. Saying Susano'o will be overwhelming is comical at best.



Chibaku Tensei is not the same as literally creating destruction in whichever direction it cuts. The thing that's overwhelming about Perfect Susano'o is that its attack is straight Kenjutsu and can be spammed at a much quicker rate than Bijudama/Flash Bijudama.



> Naruto's Bijuudama is much bigger (and stronger) than anything Kurama used during the fight with Hashirama. Kurama was _capable_ of more, but never did anything more. Naruto's Bijuudama dwarfed 5 full sized Bijuu, while the 100% Kyuubi's Bijuudama was barley bigger than its own head.



That's fair enough. But we're still talking about completely tanking a point blank Bijudama here. The size of the explosion was more than encompassing for them. It's hard to tell the total size, but IMO that looks like about 2-3 of those Bijuu's Bijudama's. But that doesn't equate to power either, because those Bijuu are in fact much weaker than Kurama.



> Also, Kurama's Bijuudama destroyed every single one of Hashirama's Mokuton creations except for the Hōbi when it exploded. Since Naruto's is too big to catch, Hashirama faces a problem against it. Madara will too, since his defense hasn't really shown to be superior.



It's not too big to catch. Not even close. Hashirama was able to make this instantly. By my count, that's about 6 or 7 hands that are each bigger than Kurama's head. Mokujin's palm was created to fit the Bijudama it caught. He can, in fact, make it much larger, and that page shows how many hands and/or the size of Mokuton he can create almost instantly.

Also, the Mokujin that Hashirama created in the recent chapter seems a little bigger. But that's because it's going up against a stabilized PS.

In terms of PS's tanking ability, it was destroyed by 4 Juubidamas, but only left Madara with very little scarring on his face. That's even better than Itachi's Susano'o did to Kirin.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> That's blatant BS. Yes, he blocked an attack from the Juubi with minimal damage, but so has Madara. Madara survived the Tempest with Ribcage Susano'o alone. Naruto...ended up like this. Why the others didn't get hurt as bad as Naruto with an inferior cloak? I'm guessing because Naruto was closer to the Juubi like Madara. But Madara's Susano'o completely protected him.



The Juubi's Bijuudama is stronger than the Tenpenchii, obviously. The alliances V1 cloaks blocked it.

The reason Naruto ended up like that is because he used up all of his remaining power to protect around *30,000* people from that attack. How can that be used to detriment his defensive abilities, when he literally defended not only himself but the entire alliance? Nevertheless, that was KCM, which is inferior in defense.



> And yes, that was KM, not BM, but to suggest that Naruto will be unharmed by Perfect Susano'o is ridiculous. PS does a different type of damage than a Bijudama, a cutting damage. Cutting and piercing has done a much better job of piercing through ultimate defenses than impact and concussive damage.



I'm just going to ask you this.

Do you think the sword of Perfect Susano'o is more dangerous than The Juubi's Bijuudama?



> And Bijudama's actual killing power has been retconned big time. i.e KB's Bijudama not killing Suigetsu and Team Taka, 6TK Naruto's Bijudama not killing Deva Path even though a Rasengan took it out, etc.



None of those Bijuudama are comparable to BM Naruto's, so I don't really care.



> Perfect Susano'o's cutting power has taken out Mokujin, which has ridiculous durability mind you.



Bijuudama took out the Mokujin as well. When it caught Kurama's and slammed it into Susano'o, the resulting explosion destroyed the Mokujin.




> Chibaku Tensei is not the same as literally creating destruction in whichever direction it cuts. The thing that's overwhelming about Perfect Susano'o is that its attack is straight Kenjutsu and can be spammed at a much quicker rate than Bijudama/Flash Bijudama.



Chibaku Tensei is the more impressive attack. The scale of it is greater than anything Madara's done with Perfect Susano'o offensively and that is absolute. Not debatable.

I'd also like to point out that Kurama fired off Bijuudama at the same rate that Madara threw Susano'o swords.



> That's fair enough. But we're still talking about completely tanking a point blank Bijudama here. The size of the explosion was more than encompassing for them. It's hard to tell the total size, but IMO that looks like about 2-3 of those Bijuu's Bijudama's. But that doesn't equate to power either, because those Bijuu are in fact much weaker than Kurama.





I drew some purple circles to help you see he difference between a normal Biuudama & Naruto's.



> It's not too big to catch. Not even close. Hashirama was able to make this instantly. By my count, that's about 6 or 7 hands that are each bigger than Kurama's head. Mokujin's palm was created to fit the Bijudama it caught. He can, in fact, make it much larger, and that page shows how many hands and/or the size of Mokuton he can create almost instantly.



I'm going to need a scan of him creating a hand as big as Naruto's Bijuubomb. It dwarfed full Bijuu. 

Maybe in Sage Mode, but in Base? Nah.




> In terms of PS's tanking ability, it was destroyed by 4 Juubidamas, but only left Madara with very little scarring on his face. That's even better than Itachi's Susano'o did to Kirin.



Madara can regenerate, so he would have been fine even if those Bijuudama completely destroyed him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Juubi's Bijuudama is stronger than the Tenpenchii, obviously. The alliances V1 cloaks blocked it.
> 
> The reason Naruto ended up like that is because he used up all of his remaining power to protect around *30,000* people from that attack. How can that be used to detriment his defensive abilities, when he literally defended not only himself but the entire alliance? Nevertheless, that was KCM, which is inferior in defense.



Yes, but only he ended up with injuries. 




> I'm just going to ask you this.
> 
> Do you think the sword of Perfect Susano'o is more dangerous than The Juubi's Bijuudama?



Maybe I should just throw your words back at you. The Juubi was _capable_ of more, especially when it had just been revived and still was in its first form. The sword of Perfect Susano'o can attack without hesitation or charge up and can be spammed. So essentially, I'm saying they're different types of attacks with different attack speeds and the Juubi was not all out there. They were only testing out the Juubi's power.




> Bijuudama took out the Mokujin as well. When it caught Kurama's and slammed it into Susano'o, the resulting explosion destroyed the Mokujin.



Yes, it did, which only ups Perfect Susano'o's tanking ability feats.



> Chibaku Tensei is the more impressive attack. The scale of it is greater than anything Madara's done with Perfect Susano'o offensively and that is absolute. Not debatable.



No, that's not true at all.  Madara's Perfect Susano'o slash stretched an entire battlefield on top of destroying mountains behind it. When Madara spun around with his sword, that was more AoE than Chibaku Tensei and cut more powerful things.



> I'd also like to point out that Kurama fired off Bijuudama at the same rate that Madara threw Susano'o swords.



Sure, but they weren't charged up obviously. If they were, then the swords would easily outspeed them. 



> I drew some purple circles to help you see he difference between a normal Biuudama & Naruto's.



Keep in mind that about half of that is Naruto's. And on top of that, the clash of the Bijudamas was high above ground (stated) so that it wouldn't harm them. So from our perspective, that thing is way closer than even the closest smoke cluster and so you'd have to scale that down a little and cut it in half (assuming the Bijudamas were exactly equal, which was implied). Not to mention, that the smoke cluster we see is actually not as big as it would originally be when the Bijudamas first fired off there. 

And even then, it hardly affected anyone in that radius. Including Kakashi and Gai.




> I'm going to need a scan of him creating a hand as big as Naruto's Bijuubomb. It dwarfed full Bijuu.



It wouldn't necessarily need to be as big. Your hand doesn't have to be as big as a basketball to catch it with one hand. But he can create 6 or 7 big hands at once, and if he concentrated them into one spot, he could certainly make one or all those hands big enough to at least stop the Bijudama and push it away. 



> Maybe in Sage Mode, but in Base? Nah.



In Sage Mode, I don't think there's any contest, seeing as he is able to make Shinsuusenju.



> Madara can regenerate, so he would have been fine even if those Bijuudama completely destroyed him.



Can he? Obito's power nullifies that, remember? There has been no sign of regeneration at all yet from either of them.


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## Santoryu (Sep 15, 2013)

We could apply "plot" for Kakashi too; and please spare me the resolve nonsense on Obito's part; Kakashi himself hesitated multiple times and Obito even noted that the former could have killed him *multiple times*. What I find interesting is that the author went out of his way to even implement Kakashi overwhelming Obito in the past in that fight, further highlighting Kakashi's superiority in that fight. What's more interesting is that in most of Kakashi fights he feels out his enemy and tries to outsmart them, in that battle however, Kakashi simply overpowered Obito, one of Kakashi's most prominent talents (high-battle intelligence) was not even max'd in that fight, it was simply a brawl

We could speculate all we want, but what we do know is, that when Kakashi and Obito engage in a one vs one battle in the other dimension, there is only one winner.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Yes, but only he ended up with injuries.



Because his cloak disappeared..because he used up all of his Chakra. 




> Maybe I should just throw your words back at you. The Juubi was _capable_ of more, especially when it had just been revived and still was in its first form. The sword of Perfect Susano'o can attack without hesitation or charge up and can be spammed. So essentially, I'm saying they're different types of attacks with different attack speeds and the Juubi was not all out there. They were only testing out the Juubi's power.



Even in it's first form, those Bijuudama are going to be more powerful than anything Madara can do. It's the freaking Juubi.  You also talk of the fact that Madara can spam his attacks, while ignoring the fact that The Juubi's Bijuudama was a continuous lazer beam.

Naruto also has other means of defense, like dodging, or interrupting Madara.




> Yes, it did, which only ups Perfect Susano'o's tanking ability feats.



What are the defensive feats of the Mokujin again? Also, Hashirama managed to destroy Perfect Susano'o, and I consider the Juubi (even in Stage 1) to be stronger than him. 



> No, that's not true at all.  Madara's Perfect Susano'o slash stretched an entire battlefield on top of destroying mountains behind it. When Madara spun around with his sword, that was more AoE than Chibaku Tensei and cut more powerful things.



Chibaku Tensei's AoE is multiple mountains (over 10) long, and even more so in width, when used by a worn Tendo.



> Sure, but they weren't charged up obviously. If they were, then the swords would easily outspeed them.



Naruto can fire uncharged ones too.



> Keep in mind that about half of that is Naruto's. And on top of that, the clash of the Bijudamas was high above ground (stated) so that it wouldn't harm them. So from our perspective, that thing is way closer than even the closest smoke cluster and so you'd have to scale that down a little and cut it in half (assuming the Bijudamas were exactly equal, which was implied). Not to mention, that the smoke cluster we see is actually not as big as it would originally be when the Bijudamas first fired off there.
> 
> And even then, it hardly affected anyone in that radius. Including Kakashi and Gai.



This is all true, but I was merely pointing out that there's a noticeable difference. The reason Kakashi & Gai weren't affected is because, as you acknowledged, Naruto shot his Bijuu Bomb at an angle causing them both to raise, where they could detonate in the sky away from everyone. 



> It wouldn't necessarily need to be as big. Your hand doesn't have to be as big as a basketball to catch it with one hand.



Yes it does, unless you plan on using your arm/wrist to help you secure the catch.



> But he can create 6 or 7 big hands at once, and if he concentrated them into one spot, he could certainly make one or all those hands big enough to at least stop the Bijudama and push it away.



Doesn't this leave Naruto, the fastest thing in the Manga, time to do something else? He could throw a Rasenshuriken at the Bijuudama, would would detonate it in Hashirama's face. Narto doesn't have to stand there while Hashirama's takes time to defend.



> Can he? Obito's power nullifies that, remember? There has been no sign of regeneration at all yet from either of them.



I don't know. Hiruzen also would have taken the Bijuudama, yet he was fine as well.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Even in it's first form, those Bijuudama are going to be more powerful than anything Madara can do. It's the freaking Juubi.  You also talk of the fact that Madara can spam his attacks, while ignoring the fact that The Juubi's Bijuudama was a continuous lazer beam.



The Hachibi also tanked some of the Juubi's Form 1 attacks and yet he was injured pretty badly by the Gobi's horn. He was getting fodderized by one shot of Amaterasu and also got his tentacles cut off by the Third Raikage and one by Chidori Spear. 



> Naruto also has other means of defense, like dodging, or interrupting Madara.



Dodging one slash he could do. Dodging multiple is impossible for anyone except for a Hiraishin user or reverse summoning or Kamui or anything of that nature.




> What are the defensive feats of the Mokujin again? Also, Hashirama managed to destroy Perfect Susano'o, and I consider the Juubi (even in Stage 1) to be stronger than him.



Shinsuusenju is the only thing that has even shown to be able to remove Susano'o besides 4 Juubidamas encased in a barrier. 



> Chibaku Tensei's AoE is multiple mountains (over 10) long, and even more so in width, when used by a worn Tendo.



The mountains that Madara cut were multiple times the size of the full Kyuubi. The full Kyuubi is about the size of a mountain in Konoha iirc.






> Naruto can fire uncharged ones too.



And they won't be nearly as powerful as a Flash Bijudama. Also, when Madara threw the Sword-Shuriken, he waited for the Bijudama to form, so he could easily throw them faster.



> This is all true, but I was merely pointing out that there's a noticeable difference. The reason Kakashi & Gai weren't affected is because, as you acknowledged, Naruto shot his Bijuu Bomb at an angle causing them both to raise, where they could detonate in the sky away from everyone.



Yep. There is a noticeable difference. The Flash Bijudama clash was truly insane. In terms of AoE, that is. Power is not exactly the same as AoE. The splash damage of a Bijudama is very minimal.



> Yes it does, unless you plan on using your arm/wrist to help you secure the catch.


 
I guess, but anyway, Hashirama can make hands that picked up Kurama like a puppy lol (and by the way, suppressed Kurama's chakra at the same time). And recall that Kurama's size decreased significantly after Shiki Fujin and the other Hakke Fuin. Just the two hands were almost as big as full Kurama himself. So two hands alone are about mountain level, which is at least close to the Flash Bijudama size. The amount of hands that Hashirama has shown to make at one time can easily equate to a Flash Bijudama size or bigger.




> Doesn't this leave Naruto, the fastest thing in the Manga, time to do something else? He could throw a Rasenshuriken at the Bijuudama, would would detonate it in Hashirama's face. Narto doesn't have to stand there while Hashirama's takes time to defend.



Hashirama can also multi-task as well, like send Mokujin or Mokuyu after Naruto. But anyway, this is about Madara, not Hashirama.




> I don't know. Hiruzen also would have taken the Bijuudama, yet he was fine as well.



Hiruzen was killed before the barrier went up. Who knows, he might have not been in it.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2013)

I don't think anybody can really say, because we haven't seen Madara go all out or anything near it. He very casually summons multiple giant meteors, slices apart entire mountain ranges, and creates forests with sleep powders, clone armies, etc. 

I'm fairly sure he's still stronger than Obito, even when Obito had his tailed beast army combining their beast bombs. That's basically why Obito was intimidated by Kabuto despite _not_ being intimidated by the rest of Akatsuki and an arsenal of other legendary, undead fighters.

Bee, Gai, and Kakashi are practically bugs here. And I'm not someone to underestimate the latter two like most people are. I think all three are comparable to Itachi in power, but are, needless to say, completely outclassed by the other three.

And I'd go so far as to say that Obito and BM Naruto are, in turn, outclassed by Rinnegan Madara, who I consider to essentially be the second coming of Rikudō Sennin. He's so careless because he's just so far above everybody bar the Jūbi in potential power.

I'm even willing to bet that he _can_ become a perfect Sage but just hasn't had the whim to do so yet. He has more knowledge than any other character with the possible exception of Orochimaru, so you know he knows and you know his body is capable.​


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The Hachibi also tanked some of the Juubi's Form 1 attacks and yet he was injured pretty badly by the Gobi's horn. He was getting fodderized by one shot of Amaterasu and also got his tentacles cut off by the Third Raikage and one by Chidori Spear.



Actually, the Hachibi never tanked any Bijuu Bomb from the Ten-Tails. He was warped away by Kakashi before the attack got there. 





> Dodging one slash he could do. Dodging multiple is impossible for anyone except for a Hiraishin user or reverse summoning or Kamui or anything of that nature.



Naruto's Body Flicker Jutsu simulates Hiraishin in speed (in the eyes of most). It's an effective tool for Naruto to use, possibly to get behind Madara and attack from the flank. Also, Naruto can intercept Madara's sword, like Hashirama did, using Bijuu-strangling Chakra arms. 



> Shinsuusenju is the only thing that has even shown to be able to remove Susano'o besides 4 Juubidamas encased in a barrier.



I consider any form of the divine Shinju's Bijuudama to be greater than the punches of the Shin Sūsenju. 



> The mountains that Madara cut were multiple times the size of the full Kyuubi. The full Kyuubi is about the size of a mountain in Konoha iirc.



All mountains are different in size. The one's in the Chibaku Tensei crater could've been even larger. 

Also, I see you're using Susano'os feats when fused with Kurama, not it by itself. 




> And they won't be nearly as powerful as a Flash Bijudama. Also, when Madara threw the Sword-Shuriken, he waited for the Bijudama to form, so he could easily throw them faster.



Madara's thrown swords won't have the same force behind them as a full, wound up swing either,



> Yep. There is a noticeable difference. The Flash Bijudama clash was truly insane. In terms of AoE, that is. Power is not exactly the same as AoE. The splash damage of a Bijudama is very minimal.



AoE and power kind of go hand in hand with Bijuudama. It's the nature of the technique. 



> I guess, but anyway, Hashirama can make hands that picked up Kurama like a puppy lol (and by the way, suppressed Kurama's chakra at the same time).



The only thing that could pick up Kurama was the Shin Sūsenju, and the Mokujin on top of the statue is what suppressed the fox.




> Hashirama can also multi-task as well, like send Mokujin or Mokuyu after Naruto. But anyway, this is about Madara, not Hashirama.



Exactly. And both Naruto & Hashirama/Madara are multitasking and throwing attacks around, it becomes a fight, not a stomp.




> Hiruzen was killed before the barrier went up. Who knows, he might have not been in it.



It would be pretty weird if _everyone_ was in the barrier EXCEPT for Hiruzen.


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And I'd go so far as to say that Obito and BM Naruto are, in turn, outclassed by Rinnegan Madara, who I consider to essentially be the second coming of Rikudō Sennin. He's so careless because he's just so far above everybody bar the Jūbi in potential power.​



Isn't Naruto the second coming of Rikudou Sennin?  I thought that was being stressed. Obito also has the Sage's power currently, so he's closer than Madara.

As for Madara outclassing Obito & Naruto...well I can see an argument against Naruto if you exclude his Sage Mode, but Obito's Kamui is the anti-Madara. Space-Time trumps overwhelming firepower.


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## Bonly (Sep 15, 2013)

Obito and Madara should've won more times then not. Naruto and B only have a few minutes before they need to recharrge leaving them in base+SM while Gai was almost all out and Kakashi was decent. Without the Juubi and without the Alliance getting involved Madara+Obito should live long enough for Team Kakashi to get tired and then finidh them off if they want.


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## Jagger (Sep 15, 2013)

The weakest one in this team is either Gai or Bee. Kakashi and Naruto are Madara's and Obito's most dangerous opponents due the first's ability to transer chakra into others and the second one for warping up things and actually having a counter for Kamui.

But, it wouldn't go down as the same since Obito was fighting alone against three powerful shinobi that had one of the few things capable of countering Obito's most used ability; Kamui. Now, you can add Madara and his Mokuton clones just like you can add Naruto's clones as well. So it is really a weird match-up.



Rocky said:


> Isn't Naruto the second coming of Rikudou Sennin?  I thought that was being stressed. Obito also has the Sage's power currently, so he's closer than Madara.


No, Madara is. He did gain the both sides of the descendants of the Rikkyudo and gained his eyes. Naruto is the reincarnation of the Sage. I don't know if that sounds any different for you.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Isn't Naruto the second coming of Rikudou Sennin?  I thought that was being stressed.



Madara's the only other person to awaken the Rinnegan.​


Rocky said:


> Obito also has the Sage's power currently, so he's closer than Madara.



I'd agree that Jūbito is stronger than Madara.​


Rocky said:


> As for Madara outclassing Obito & Naruto...well I can see an argument against Naruto if you exclude his Sage Mode



I'd say Madara dominates regardless.​


Rocky said:


> but Obito's Kamui is the anti-Madara. Space-Time trumps overwhelming firepower.



Clones can trump that pretty easily, no?​


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Actually, the Hachibi never tanked any Bijuu Bomb from the Ten-Tails. He was warped away by Kakashi before the attack got there.




*Spoiler*: __ 








He took his own Bijudama + Juubidama (at least his face did lol). Unless you want to suggest that Bee's completely overpowered the Juubi's, in which case the Juubidama's power is severely weakened feat wise and the one it used to destroy a town was on a much different level. So what we're looking at is a MASSIVE range of power that the Juubi has showcased. 




> Naruto's Body Flicker Jutsu simulates Hiraishin in speed (in the eyes of most). It's an effective tool for Naruto to use, possibly to get behind Madara and attack from the flank. Also, Naruto can intercept Madara's sword, like Hashirama did, using Bijuu-strangling Chakra arms.



It's not Hiraishin, however, and is not light speed by any means or teleportation. He can interrupt one sword? Maybe. But then Madara spins around and cuts him in half lol. 

Getting close to Madara is extremely dangerous because of Mokuryu and its maneuverability. 



> I consider any form of the divine Shinju's Bijuudama to be greater than the punches of the Shin Sūsenju.



As I've already shown and explained, there is a huge range. Shinsuusenju is 1,000+ hits from Sage Mode Mokuton hands. That type of power is absolutely insane and is not something that can be just casually shrugged off.



> All mountains are different in size. The one's in the Chibaku Tensei crater could've been even larger.



They could have been, yes. But there's no proof of that. What we know is that the mountains near Konoha are roughly the height of Kurama. 



> Also, I see you're using Susano'os feats when fused with Kurama, not it by itself.



Fused is not the correct term. He used Perfect Susano'o as armor, which is not the same thing. There was no indication of the sword's power being increased in any way. 



> Madara's thrown swords won't have the same force behind them as a full, wound up swing either,



I agree, but it serves its purpose as a Chakra blocker (i.e causing a Bijudama to explode).



> AoE and power kind of go hand in hand with Bijuudama. It's the nature of the technique.



Not really though. Yes, the AoE is a decent indicator, but generally speaking, there's only one spot of the Bijudama that is actually dangerous to any tank monster (unless contained by something like a Suns Barrier). And that's the epicenter. For example:



Depending on how far away that exploded, the AoE on that is comparable to a Flash Bijudama. No, not quite as big, but think about the perspective on this one. We are looking at a range of mountains that dwarf Gyuki being completely dwarfed by only the height of the explosion of this Bijudama. We're not even seeing the whole size of the Bijudama, as we are only looking at one side. The splash damage even hit behind him. Even so, Team Taka was unharmed and Suigetsu survived.

And remember that the Flash Bijudama is half of that explosion we saw in the clash. So actually, what we're looking at is a pretty close AoE. But I'd bet my sandals that the Flash Bijudama is a lot stronger. 

So my point essentially is, that while the AoE was ridiculous, that does not mean its power was on the same scale to be able to wipe out something like Perfect Susano'o.



> The only thing that could pick up Kurama was the Shin Sūsenju, and the Mokujin on top of the statue is what suppressed the fox.



Yep, so what makes you think he can't create those hands with just regular Senpo Mokuton? 



Top panel, you can see Kurama's Chakra start to get sapped (the top of his head).

Mokuton in general does indeed have the ability of Chakra suppression. Yamato was able to do it to Kisame, but obviously not enough for him to break the Wood Stocks. 



> Exactly. And both Naruto & Hashirama/Madara are multitasking and throwing attacks around, it becomes a fight, not a stomp.



Fair enough, but Naruto would lose that fight. 



> It would be pretty weird if _everyone_ was in the barrier EXCEPT for Hiruzen.



Yes, it would be, but it is certainly a possibility. I mean, he was there in time to stop the Shinju from killing Naruto and that was after they all teleported away from the barrier. So you never know.


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## ueharakk (Sep 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is all true, but I was merely pointing out that there's a noticeable difference. The reason Kakashi & Gai weren't affected is because, as you acknowledged, Naruto shot his Bijuu Bomb at an angle causing them both to raise, where they could detonate in the sky away from everyone.



er, no that's not true.  He said that the bijuudama is closer the the POV than even the closes smoke cluster which can't be true since the bijuudamas went straight up and we know that the closes smoke cluster is miles in the foreground compared to where the bijuudamas clashed.

In addition to that, you'd have to cut the volume of the blast in half in order to get what naruto produced on his own and not the radius in half, and that results in a blast that visually looks hardly any smaller than the blast we see in that scan.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> er, no that's not true.  He said that the bijuudama is closer the the POV than even the closes smoke cluster which can't be true since the bijuudamas went straight up and we know that the closes smoke cluster is miles in the foreground compared to where the bijuudamas clashed.
> 
> In addition to that, you'd have to cut the volume of the blast in half in order to get what naruto produced on his own and not the radius in half, and that results in a blast that visually looks hardly any smaller than the blast we see in that scan.



The height pretty much offsets that, so maybe it's pretty close in perspective, because our perspective is also very high in the air. 

I scaled it on photoshop, and input 50% and this is what it looks like.

Edit: Never mind. See a below post for the right scale.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi himself hesitated multiple times and Obito even noted that the former could have killed him *multiple times*.



The key difference is that Kakashi only came across such opportunities in the first place exclusively due to the efforts of his allies.

Obito did not require anyone's help for a chance to kill Kakashi.



> What I find interesting is that the author went out of his way to even implement Kakashi overwhelming Obito in the past in that fight, further highlighting Kakashi's superiority in that fight.



Showcasing how the _sparring match_, a.k.a. where people are not trying to kill each other, went in the past and how it lines up with what just happened doesn't further highlight Kakashi's "superiority" at all, it only further emphasizes what _Obito_ has _regressed to_.



> What's more interesting is that in most of Kakashi fights he feels out his enemy



. . .Because Kakashi _already knows_ Obito. You don't "feel out" opponents you're already familiar with, it's a waste of time and energy.



> We could speculate all we want, but what we do know is, that when Kakashi and Obito engage in a one vs one battle in the other dimension, there is only one winner.



Maybe. . . .if we conveniently forget that Obito could still _Kamui_ himself out whilst Kakashi collapsed on the floor in Kamuiland bleeding to death and is still there at this moment.

Kakashi is to Obito what Part 1 Kabuto is to Tsunade, and nothing more. He "won" only through a major psychological disadvantage on his opponent's part, and had that problem not been present, Kakashi would have lost regardless of his own state of mind.


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## Rocky (Sep 16, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Madara's the only other person to awaken the Rinnegan.​



True, but Naruto's like the Sage's reincarnate or however the story goes, even if Madara's abilities more closely resemble Rikudou's.



> I'd say Madara dominates regardless.​



Well, thinking back to what Sage Mode did to Naruto's Base abilities, and the power it granted to Hashirama & Kabuto as well, I would think the already incredibly powerful Bijuu Mode Naruto would clean house with Sage Mode & Bijuu Mode activated simultaneously. 



> Clones can trump that pretty easily, no?​



"It will only multiply your incompetence"

I don't think they're really an option that certainly trumps Kamui. Obito should be able to handle the 4% Madaras. Naruto can divide his Chakra by 13 and still compete in the Kage spectrum, and yet he wasn't able to take Tobi on his own.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The height pretty much offsets that, so maybe it's pretty close in perspective, because our perspective is also very high in the air.
> 
> I scaled it on photoshop, and input 50% and this is what it looks like.
> 
> ...




Well, I'm wrong here. This is more what it would look like:



I know it's not a perfect sphere, but it's close enough XD. The volume would affect less area going out as well (the other side of what we're not seeing). So the AoE actually wouldn't be nearly as large, even if it looks kinda like it from our perspective.


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## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The height pretty much offsets that, so maybe it's pretty close in perspective, because our perspective is also very high in the air.


the height doesn't offset it as you can see the very bottom of the dama is barely above the ground and we know where the location that the dama is centered at in comparison to the smoke of the first crater.



Master Sephiroth said:


> I scaled it on photoshop, and input 50% and this is what it looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> The inside circle is the scaled Bijudama. Actually, that looks about right for being 5 times as powerful apparently as the regular Biju Bijudama.


Except that scaling is completely fallacious as you say that because naruto's bijuudama is half as powerful, it would have half the RADIUS of the blast.  

That's obviously not true as a blast half as powerful would have half the VOLUME of the blast, thus if  V = 4/3pir^3 then r = (3V/4pi)^1/3 and r2 = (3V/2pi)^1/3.  So lets say the volume of the combined blast was 200 and thus the volume of naruto's blast was 100.  crunch those numbers into that formula and you get a radius of 3.6 for the combined and 2.9 for naruto's which means naruto's radius is 80% of the combined, a radius much greater than the 50% you give it.

i see your new post takes what i've just said into account. thank you.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> the height doesn't offset it as you can see the very bottom of the dama is barely above the ground and we know where the location that the dama is centered at in comparison to the smoke of the first crater.
> 
> 
> Except that scaling is completely fallacious as you say that because naruto's bijuudama is half as powerful, it would have half the RADIUS of the blast.
> ...



Yeah. As soon as I looked at it, I realized that I messed up. I'm excusing myself since I've been out of practice for geometry for years and years lmao. For the updated model, I measured the pixels of the diameter, then halved it for the radius and then used the Volume formula and then halved the volume and then just reversed the process to find the radius so that I would be able to draw it and then draw a circle around four radii. 

Anyway, it's pretty significant drop, but still a huge AoE. No denying that. Too bad we can't really get an accurate read on its power.

I also noticed that Kishi messed up the perspective on this one, even though it's a very minor mistake. Each cluster of smoke is about the same size even though they're supposedly miles apart. So it looks like everything is as big as it looks, based on that odd little fact.


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## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah. As soon as I looked at it, I realized that I messed up. I'm excusing myself since I've been out of practice for geometry for years and years lmao. For the updated model, I measured the pixels of the diameter, then halved it for the radius and then used the Volume formula and then halved the volume and then just reversed the process to find the radius so that I would be able to draw it and then draw a circle around four radii.
> 
> Anyway, it's pretty significant drop, but still a huge AoE. No denying that. Too bad we can't really get an accurate read on its power.


we kind of can get an accurate read on the power.  *We know that only half of this explosion is what it takes to destroy PS.*

We know that raw explosions like the ones at VoTe are much weaker than a bijuudama explosion of the same size as *FRS produces a raw explosion comparable to a bijuudama's *blast radius despite being a much weaker attack.

and then there's the fact that the actual size of naruto's super bijuudama is comparable to PS itself, and there's no way PS is going to take a direct hit from a bijuudama that's the same size as itself if things like itachi's susanoo gets vaporized by a weaker attack than KN6 or rapidfire bijuudama, or sasuke's susanoo gets blown open by danzou's fuuton.





Master Sephiroth said:


> I also noticed that Kishi messed up the perspective on this one, even though it's a very minor mistake. Each cluster of smoke is about the same size even though they're supposedly miles apart. So it looks like everything is as big as it looks, based on that odd little fact.


then that just would mean we'd have an upper limit and a lower limit of the size/power of naruto's super bijuudama if we base it on the smoke clusters.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> we kind of can get an accurate read on the power.  *We know that only half of this explosion is what it takes to destroy PS.*
> 
> We know that raw explosions like the ones at VoTe are much weaker than a bijuudama explosion of the same size as *FRS produces a raw explosion comparable to a bijuudama's *blast radius despite being a much weaker attack.
> 
> and then there's the fact that the actual size of naruto's super bijuudama is comparable to PS itself, and there's no way PS is going to take a direct hit from a bijuudama that's the same size as itself if things like itachi's susanoo gets vaporized by a weaker attack than KN6 or rapidfire bijuudama, or sasuke's susanoo gets blown open by danzou's fuuton.



It's not really that simple.The majority of the damage that Perfect Susano'o took was direct impact damage from Shinsuusenju's Mokuton Hands. That would not make nearly as big of an explosion as if Shinsuusenju had a Bijudama. Even so, the damage that the 11+ Bijuu-Shurikens made was well over a mountain range and that failed to destroy Hashirama or Madara.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 16, 2013)

I like the above debate alot!

Now I'm just gonna speak on how I think the fight would have played out after Gai's Afternoon Tiger.

After Madara got shaken up, the battlefield got pretty calm for a moment. Calm enough that Naruto & Bee had free opening to prep this of all things:
- *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*
- *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*
- *"It comes down to speed.... whoever strikes first will win!"*

SO...Instead of that going to Gedo Mazo...I'm sure it would have been going to Madara.

Bee would have then closed in a Ink Sealed Madara's regenerating body no problem.
Obito could not teleport to Madara's aid because of the combo Kakashi & Naruto were playing on him during this.

And then, eventually, Naruto would have learned extreme chakra transfer, then come with Kakashi into Obito's realm with a clone and have the real Naruto pressuring him in the real.

That is how the Jak sees the fight going forward.


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## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It's not really that simple.The majority of the damage that Perfect Susano'o took was direct impact damage from Shinsuusenju's Mokuton Hands. That would not make nearly as big of an explosion as if Shinsuusenju had a Bijudama.


which is made up for by the fact that a normal bijuudama explosion >>>>>>> raw explosion of the same size (unless you believe a FRS is comparable in power to a standard bijuudama).  And then there's the fact that kishi showed both explosions the same size which implies that the attacks were equal despite the nature of the bijuudama being an explosion.

Also if PS takes the hit directly like how bee did, he's going to be taking roughly 50% of the blast's total energy.  While comparatively, a PS slash won't even exert 50% of its damage on naruto as the total power of the attack is spread across the arc of the entire slash which starts from below ground level and extends to almost the top of high end mountains.  It gets even worse for when madara tries to spin with the attack as we see it only cuts through the top of a mountain while standard bijuudamas vaporize the entire thing meaning it penetrates the far thicker base of the mountain and thus a standard bijuudama is going to have more penetrating power than a PS slash if the slash's power is fanned out across a 360 degree arc.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Even so, the damage that the 11+ Bijuu-Shurikens made was well over a mountain range and that failed to destroy Hashirama or Madara.


We wouldn't expect it to do anything to madara and that would just mean hashirama's giant mokuton backpack is that durable and huge.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> which is made up for by the fact that a normal bijuudama explosion >>>>>>> raw explosion of the same size (unless you believe a FRS is comparable in power to a standard bijuudama).  And then there's the fact that kishi showed both explosions the same size which implies that the attacks were equal despite the nature of the bijuudama being an explosion.
> 
> Also if PS takes the hit directly like how bee did, he's going to be taking roughly 50% of the blast's total energy.  While comparatively, a PS slash won't even exert 50% of its damage on naruto as the total power of the attack is spread across the arc of the entire slash which starts from below ground level and extends to almost the top of high end mountains.  It gets even worse for when madara tries to spin with the attack as we see it only cuts through the top of a mountain while standard bijuudamas vaporize the entire thing meaning it penetrates the far thicker base of the mountain and thus a standard bijuudama is going to have more penetrating power than a PS slash if the slash's power is fanned out across a 360 degree arc.
> 
> ...



You are directly linking AoE and power, and are basically equalizing ever type of damage. PS cut what was in the arc of its sword swing and caused knockback elsewhere, like the Kages being blown back despite not being in its direct path. The Bijudama's explosion destroys in a spherical manner, whereas PS' destruction path is a long line that stretches an entire battlefield or a ring depending on if he spins it. Cutting is also much different from explosive damage. 

And actually depending on what caused the raw explosion, I would take that over a Bijudama any day. Bijudama doesn't do jack shit to anyone not in the center of the blast. Anyone can avoid that basic hit and take the very minimal splash damage. I would take my chances avoiding the middle of a Bijudama rather than try to survive a Senpo FRS head on.


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## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> You are directly linking AoE and power, and are basically equalizing ever type of damage.


 im linking AoE of explosions to power as a rough transition between the two and for bijuudamas greater AoE is directly linked to greater power.



Master Sephiroth said:


> PS cut what was in the arc of its sword swing and caused knockback elsewhere, like the Kages being blown back despite not being in its direct path. The Bijudama's explosion destroys in a spherical manner, whereas PS' destruction path is a long line that stretches an entire battlefield or a ring depending on if he spins it. Cutting is also much different from explosive damage.


and what does this have to with the logic of my post?  In addition to that, show how cutting damage and explosive damage are different if both attacks are exact equals.



Master Sephiroth said:


> And actually depending on what caused the raw explosion, I would take that over a Bijudama any day. Bijudama doesn't do jack shit to anyone not in the center of the blast.


Take what over a bijuudama?  A FRS?  And sure bijuudamas aren't all that damaging if u don't get directly hit and are far away from the center, but the same would apply to any raw explosion in the manga including the FRS's explosion that filled chibaku tensei.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Anyone can avoid that basic hit and take the very minimal splash damage. I would take my chances avoiding the middle of a Bijudama rather than try to survive a Senpo FRS head on.


Again what does this have to do with my post?  Are you saying that a FRS is more powerful than a bijuudama, or that getting directly hit by a FRS is more damaging than getting directly hit by a bijuudama?  

Because if you are simply comparing a direct hit from SM FRS to being far away from the center of a bijuudama's explosion, then that's not  comparison between the power of both attacks and has nothing to do with my logic that shows that a bijuudama's explosion >>>>  a raw explosion of the same size.

Finally, i don't even agree that someone is going to take minimal splash damage by avoiding the basic hit, when a normal bijuudama exploded it erased all of hashirama's mokuton on the battlefield, that's the same a mokuton larger than FTW that madara used and oonoki's jinton couldn't even leave a significant dent in the entire expanse of the technique.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> im linking AoE of explosions to power as a rough transition between the two and for bijuudamas greater AoE is directly linked to greater power.



Bijudamas, maybe. But Bijudamas to other techniques? And even other techniques to other techniques? No. 



> and what does this have to with the logic of my post?  In addition to that, show how cutting damage and explosive damage are different if both attacks are exact equals.



Chidori vs Rasengan. When clashed, they were of equal power, but they did different things to the metal tank and different things to opponents. Sasuke pierced through the metal tank whereas Naruto's impact damage was minimal in the front, though it blew out the back of it. Does that mean Rasengan was more powerful because it did more to the tank? No. It has been rehashed over and over that Chidori and Rasengan are equal. In that instance, AoE and the type of damage done to the metal tank didn't determined how powerful the techniques were. Of course, Sasuke didn't take it that way, as visually it did look worse. But to be fair, he wasn't in the best of mental states.



> Take what over a bijuudama?  A FRS?  And sure bijuudamas aren't all that damaging if u don't get directly hit and are far away from the center, but the same would apply to any raw explosion in the manga including the FRS's explosion that filled chibaku tensei.



A Senpo: FRS which is the example that you gave. A Senpo: FRS cut through the paths like butter, cut through the mountains in Mt. Myoboko and of course, caused the damage you linked to. Even a normal Rasen-Shuriken cuts at the cellular level, so if you're caught in that explosion, you're getting cut at the cellular level instead of taking minimal splash damage.



> Again what does this have to do with my post?  Are you saying that a FRS is more powerful than a bijuudama, or that getting directly hit by a FRS is more damaging than getting directly hit by a bijuudama?



The splash damage of a FRS is better (explained above) than the splash damage of a Bijudama (to a ninja, not to an environment). Being directly hit by a Bijudama is another thing entirely. But unfortunately, we don't have many feats of people being hit directly by Bijudama. Right now, Suigetsu, Perfect Susano'o and Mokujin come to mind. Only Mokujin was destroyed and Hashirama survived the splash damage with no injury. Of course Perfect Susano'o stayed up and Suigetsu survived the point blank Hachibijudama when the AoE of the explosion was absolutely massive.



> Because if you are simply comparing a direct hit from SM FRS to being far away from the center of a bijuudama's explosion, then that's not  comparison between the power of both attacks and has nothing to do with my logic that shows that a bijuudama's explosion >>>>  a raw explosion of the same size.



Addressed above. A Senpo FRS head on vs a Bijudama head on? Who knows, we haven't seen someone get hit by both and like I already said, Bijudama doesn't have many feats of hitting people head on. Most people avoid that center and get the splash damage, which hasn't killed.



> Finally, i don't even agree that someone is going to take minimal splash damage by avoiding the basic hit, when a normal bijuudama exploded it erased all of hashirama's mokuton on the battlefield, that's the same a mokuton larger than FTW that madara used and oonoki's jinton couldn't even leave a significant dent in the entire expanse of the technique.



Yeah, but Mokujin was in its direct path, if that's what you're talking about. He slammed it into PS like a Rasengan, so it was right there. But Hashirama survived no problem. Hell, Hashirama was _standing_ on the Mokujin arm that held the Bijudama.

Jinton destroyed everything in its path Mokuton-wise. If it had been the same AoE as the Mokuton, it would have destroyed it. That doesn't downplay its killing power, only its AoE, which is not the same thing.


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## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Bijudamas, maybe. But Bijudamas to other techniques? And even other techniques to other techniques? No.


as a rough measure of power, yes AoE of a raw explosion would allow one to gauge the  total power output of one technique to another.  




Master Sephiroth said:


> Chidori vs Rasengan. When clashed, they were of equal power, but they did different things to the metal tank and different things to opponents. Sasuke pierced through the metal tank whereas Naruto's impact damage was minimal in the front, though it blew out the back of it. Does that mean Rasengan was more powerful because it did more to the tank? No. It has been rehashed over and over that Chidori and Rasengan are equal. In that instance, AoE and the type of damage done to the metal tank didn't determined how powerful the techniques were. Of course, Sasuke didn't take it that way, as visually it did look worse. But to be fair, he wasn't in the best of mental states.


Sasuke's chidori at that time wasn't equal to naruto's rasengan it was only after he went through orochimaru's ritual that his chidori was on par.  

In addition to that in the context of this discussion chidori and rasengan do a net equal damage to their opponent, so all it would mean is that chidori's damage would be spread out across a smaller AoE than rasengans.  And we've already talked about how the slash's power is displaced.




Master Sephiroth said:


> A Senpo: FRS which is the example that you gave. A Senpo: FRS cut through the paths like butter, cut through the mountains in Mt. Myoboko and of course, caused the damage you linked to. Even a normal Rasen-Shuriken cuts at the cellular level, so if you're caught in that explosion, you're getting cut at the cellular level instead of taking minimal splash damage.


The example that I gave was a senpou FRS's raw explosion.  When the FRS cut through the paths like butter the mountain it didn't turn into a giant raw explosion, it either was still in a shuriken form, expanded or turned into a wind sphere.  Same for the base FRS and none of those attacks had the AoE of the one in my link.  So the raw explosion's damage density would be enormously weaker than the wind sphere or gettingdirectly hit by the shuriken.




Master Sephiroth said:


> The splash damage of a FRS is better (explained above) than the splash damage of a Bijudama (to a ninja, not to an environment). Being directly hit by a Bijudama is another thing entirely.


that's not true.  The splash damage of a FRS's raw explosion and NOT the wind sphere is no where near the splash damage of a bijuudama.  Now if you are talking about being inside the wind sphere, then sure your post would have some truth and here's why: The damage one sustains from a bijuudama is dependant on how far they are from the epicenter, if they are close enough they still receive more damage than they would by being within the FRS's sphere.



Master Sephiroth said:


> But unfortunately, we don't have many feats of people being hit directly by Bijudama. Right now, Suigetsu, Perfect Susano'o and Mokujin come to mind. Only Mokujin was destroyed and Hashirama survived the splash damage with no injury. Of course Perfect Susano'o stayed up and Suigetsu survived the point blank Hachibijudama when the AoE of the explosion was absolutely massive.


Suigetsu was directly hit, but the dama merely passed through him, the actual explosion occured miles behind suigetsu's position and he was in a lake.

PS wasn't only in the process of leveling up which means any damage sustained would have been repaired, but it wasn't directly hit either, it blocked the dama with its swords.  Hashirama survived the splash damage by using a jutsu.





Master Sephiroth said:


> Addressed above. A Senpo FRS head on vs a Bijudama head on? Who knows, we haven't seen someone get hit by both and like I already said, Bijudama doesn't have many feats of hitting people head on. Most people avoid that center and get the splash damage, which hasn't killed.


If we don't have direct feats of someone getting hit by a bijuudama, then what do we turn to in order to evaluate the stance?  Hype, and obviously a bijuudama is considerably more powerful than a SM FRS since Naruto opted to use it against Sandaime raikage after his KCM FRS failed despite the bijuudama costing much more chakra and the FRS having the elemental advantage.  And before you say "it was a KCM FRS not a sennin mode one" if Naruto's sennin mode FRS was significantly stronger than his KCM version, it would not only had been stated or implied, but he would have also attempted that on sandaime raikage instead of having to bank his win on a theory.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah, but Mokujin was in its direct path, if that's what you're talking about. He slammed it into PS like a Rasengan, so it was right there. But Hashirama survived no problem. Hell, Hashirama was _standing_ on the Mokujin arm that held the Bijudama.


Mokujin was not what i was talking about, i was talking about the giant mokuton that littered the battlefield around mokujin and kurama.  And it was shown that hashirama used a defensive technique to survive the blast radius.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Jinton destroyed everything in its path Mokuton-wise. If it had been the same AoE as the Mokuton, it would have destroyed it. That doesn't downplay its killing power, only its AoE, which is not the same thing.


That's not true as oonoki had to spin multiple times in order for his jinton to destroy an insignificant portion of flower tree world.  If jinton did destroy everything in its path, he would only have had to spin around a single time, and he would have wiped out the entire technique.  

Also jinton does not just destroy whatever it comes into contact with, it destroys the stuff at a rate which is why madara clone susanoos are able to survive for some time within the jinton cube and why sasuke is able to block the even more advanced black jinton for a moment using just a skeletal susanoo arm.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> as a rough measure of power, yes AoE of a raw explosion would allow one to gauge the  total power output of one technique to another.



Only if it's measured in other explosions. Explosions vs non-explosions can't be simply measured with AoE.



> Sasuke's chidori at that time wasn't equal to naruto's rasengan it was only after he went through orochimaru's ritual that his chidori was on par.



That's speculation as to how much stronger Chidori got as a result of the ritual. In Curse Seal mode, perhaps. But base mode is up for interpretation.



> In addition to that in the context of this discussion chidori and rasengan do a net equal damage to their opponent, so all it would mean is that chidori's damage would be spread out across a smaller AoE than rasengans.  And we've already talked about how the slash's power is displaced.



Yes, that's where this argument comes in. Chidori's damage is focused and concentrated to increase penetration. That is totally different from Rasengan which focuses it's energy to explode outwardly (though not the same type of concussive explosion as Bijudama. More of a theoretical explosion). 

The slash's power is concentrated in a line or a ring. It could certainly cut something that perhaps is vulnerable to cutting but not vulnerable to explosions. Shinobi are generally speaking more prone to cutting/piercing than explosions. That has been blatantly shown throughout the entire manga.



> The example that I gave was a senpou FRS's raw explosion.  When the FRS cut through the paths like butter the mountain it didn't turn into a giant raw explosion, it either was still in a shuriken form, expanded or turned into a wind sphere.  Same for the base FRS and none of those attacks had the AoE of the one in my link.  So the raw explosion's damage density would be enormously weaker than the wind sphere or gettingdirectly hit by the shuriken.



What exactly was the point to this again?




> that's not true.  The splash damage of a FRS's raw explosion and NOT the wind sphere is no where near the splash damage of a bijuudama.  Now if you are talking about being inside the wind sphere, then sure your post would have some truth and here's why: The damage one sustains from a bijuudama is dependant on how far they are from the epicenter, if they are close enough they still receive more damage than they would by being within the FRS's sphere.



What I'm talking about is this:



If you are anywhere inside that, you are getting cut at the cellular level. That is far more lethal than any splash damage caused to a Shinobi ever by a Bijudama in the manga.



> Suigetsu was directly hit, but the dama merely passed through him, the actual explosion occured miles behind suigetsu's position and he was in a lake.



Yeah, and the splash damage covered that area too, as it also destroyed stuff behind Bee. And yet Taka was unharmed.



> PS wasn't only in the process of leveling up which means any damage sustained would have been repaired, but it wasn't directly hit either, it blocked the dama with its swords.  Hashirama survived the splash damage by using a jutsu.



Yep, and the Bijudama didn't stop it from leveling up. PS was perfectly fine from the blast. The sword was right in front of it, so it's not like PS wasn't still at the epicenter of the blast. 

And yes, Hashirama survived by using a defensive Jutsu. That's just a testament to Hashirama's defensive feats that he can put one up on a moment's notice and survive a point blank Bijudama from Kurama. 



> If we don't have direct feats of someone getting hit by a bijuudama, then what do we turn to in order to evaluate the stance?  Hype, and obviously a bijuudama is considerably more powerful than a SM FRS since Naruto opted to use it against Sandaime raikage after his KCM FRS failed despite the bijuudama costing much more chakra and the FRS having the elemental advantage.  And before you say "it was a KCM FRS not a sennin mode one" if Naruto's sennin mode FRS was significantly stronger than his KCM version, it would not only had been stated or implied, but he would have also attempted that on sandaime raikage instead of having to bank his win on a theory.



I don't deal with pure hype on a serious debate. Sorry. If we were to go on hype, Madara and Hashirama would absolutely wreck any form of Naruto. 

As for the fight against the Third Raikage, Naruto tried the Bijudama because it was an alternative to the Rasen-Shuriken. Naruto had never successfully made a Bijudama (stated by Bee), and so it had no feats. So Naruto would have no idea how powerful it would be.

In fact, it was a theory, the Bijudama working. In this page, it was told by Dodai that the Hachibi caused Sandaime's scar. So naturally, Naruto would have assumed that it was the Bijudama. 




> Mokujin was not what i was talking about, i was talking about the giant mokuton that littered the battlefield around mokujin and kurama.  And it was shown that hashirama used a defensive technique to survive the blast radius.



Check this page:



There is, in fact, some Mokuton roots left. Same as Jinton.



> That's not true as oonoki had to spin multiple times in order for his jinton to destroy an insignificant portion of flower tree world.  If jinton did destroy everything in its path, he would only have had to spin around a single time, and he would have wiped out the entire technique.



I'm not really going to argue about how many times Oonoki had to spin, because that is up for interpretation. What we actually _see_ in the manga panels are Oonoki using Jinton and everything in its path being gone. He destroyed enough of the pollen Jutsu to stop the Jutsu from affecting them. 



> Also jinton does not just destroy whatever it comes into contact with, it destroys the stuff at a rate which is why madara clone susanoos are able to survive for some time within the jinton cube and why sasuke is able to block the even more advanced black jinton for a moment using just a skeletal susanoo arm.



Even so, it's a ridiculously fast rate. Fast enough that the clones using Susano'o got destroyed because they weren't able to absorb Jinton in time. Because they were encased in it, of course. And yes, that was with Tsunade's help, but that was only helping him increase the size so that they could defeat the clones. No indication of it increasing the strength unless Oonoki purposely put more into his Jinton because he had Chakra to spare.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Only if it's measured in other explosions. Explosions vs non-explosions can't be simply measured with AoE.


if the non-explosion produces an explosion or concussive force that's animated as an explosion, then sure it can.




Master Sephiroth said:


> That's speculation as to how much stronger Chidori got as a result of the ritual. In Curse Seal mode, perhaps. But base mode is up for interpretation.


Sasuke in base got much stronger from the ritual, naruto even noted that when they first started fighting.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Yes, that's where this argument comes in. Chidori's damage is focused and concentrated to increase penetration. That is totally different from Rasengan which focuses it's energy to explode outwardly (though not the same type of concussive explosion as Bijudama. More of a theoretical explosion).


okay, but you agree that the sum total of the damage that both techniques exert would be the same correct?



Master Sephiroth said:


> The slash's power is concentrated in a line or a ring. It could certainly cut something that perhaps is vulnerable to cutting but not vulnerable to explosions. Shinobi are generally speaking more prone to cutting/piercing than explosions. That has been blatantly shown throughout the entire manga.


The slash's power is concentrated in an arc or a ring, not a line.

And sure shinobi are more porne to getting cut, but the sum total damage that they receive from the cuts vs explosions are going to be equal if both attacks are just as powerful.  In addition to that, that's a fallacious example as the cutting attacks that you reference exert their full AoE on a singular target while madara's cutting attack is exerting only part of its AoE (like an explosion) on a singular target.




Master Sephiroth said:


> What exactly was the point to this again?


to show you that a bijuudama's explosion is much more powerful than a raw explosion of comparable size.





Master Sephiroth said:


> What I'm talking about is this:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are anywhere inside that, you are getting cut at the cellular level. That is far more lethal than any splash damage caused to a Shinobi ever by a Bijudama in the manga.


well then that's has nothing to do with my post that compares the raw explosion of FRS and NOT the wind sphere which is what is in that pic.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah, and the splash damage covered that area too, as it also destroyed stuff behind Bee. And yet Taka was unharmed.


It didn't destroy stuff behind bee, the resulting devestation was from bee's rampage after the bijuudama, as we see equal damage on all sides of bee yet he fired the dama a kilometer or two in front of himself.

Taka was hit with the splash damage and harmed, we don't know where they were in reference to the actual explosion of the dama but the last time we saw them on panel they would have been a kilometer away from the epicenter of the blast.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Yep, and the Bijudama didn't stop it from leveling up. PS was perfectly fine from the blast. The sword was right in front of it, so it's not like PS wasn't still at the epicenter of the blast.


No one's saying that the bijuudama didn't stop it from leveling up, you don't know if PS was perfectly fine from the blast since any damage it would have sustained would have been repaired offpanel, and all that shows is that a bijuudama isn't enough to take PS out.  PS wasn't hit directly by the blast even if it was close to the center, bee is an example of getting hit directly by the blast and PS had its swords out blocking the dama.



Master Sephiroth said:


> And yes, Hashirama survived by using a defensive Jutsu. That's just a testament to Hashirama's defensive feats that he can put one up on a moment's notice and survive a point blank Bijudama from Kurama.


Not if that bijuudama actually hits hashirama's defense, only if it explodes and from the looks of it hashirama was able to come out of it unscathed because he and his mokuton hid underground.




Master Sephiroth said:


> I don't deal with pure hype on a serious debate. Sorry. If we were to go on hype, Madara and Hashirama would absolutely wreck any form of Naruto.


That's A>B>C character hype which is in no way the equivalent of a straight up Jutsu power vs jutsu power debate.  In addition to that, the only reason this is actually a debate is because both Madara and Naruto have the feats to make it one.  If Madara didn't have any feats or we couldn't compare the two with feats, then we'd turn to hype and thus Madara would beat BM Naruto.  

you stated your reason for not being able to compare the two attacks against a singular target is because lack of feats.  Well, since you don't want to use feats because you think they are lacking, then we use hype.  

Oh and btw by no means of hype can Madara or Hashirama wreck BSM Naruto as neither have been compared to him in either combat or statements.



Master Sephiroth said:


> As for the fight against the Third Raikage, Naruto tried the Bijudama because it was an alternative to the Rasen-Shuriken. Naruto had never successfully made a Bijudama (stated by Bee), and so it had no feats. So Naruto would have no idea how powerful it would be.


Naruto has seen the bijuudama used before and he knows how powerful it is since he knew exactly how powerful to make his damas later in the war. 



Master Sephiroth said:


> In fact, it was a theory, the Bijudama working. In this page, it was told by Dodai that the Hachibi caused Sandaime's scar. So naturally, Naruto would have assumed that it was the Bijudama.


yeah and thus it's another reason he believes that the bijuudama is much more powerful than a FRS since it did that kind of damage to sandaime.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Check this page:
> 
> 
> 
> There is, in fact, some Mokuton roots left. Same as Jinton.




Check *THIS PAGE.  *

You see how much mokuton is left after oonki's jinton?  *Now compare that to how much is left after the bijuudama kurama used.*

there's like one or two pieces of wood left post bijuudama, all the other wood is stuff hashirama grew after the fact.  The vast majority of FTW is still there after oonoki jintond it.  And that's including the fact that jinton has a much smaller AoE than a bijuudama which means its power even while focused on just mokuton wasn't able to do what kurama's did.




Master Sephiroth said:


> I'm not really going to argue about how many times Oonoki had to spin, because that is up for interpretation. What we actually _see_ in the manga panels are Oonoki using Jinton and everything in its path being gone. He destroyed enough of the pollen Jutsu to stop the Jutsu from affecting them.


Well if you are going to ignore the point that dismantles your argument: oonoki having to make at least 1 revolution, then it's a concession on your part.

oonoki using jinton and eventually destroying a portion of FTW doesn't matter as that's not what we are discussing, you are arguing that the only reason oonoki's jinton netted a smaller total damage to FTW was because of its smaller AoE which I showed is false as he spun more than once and the vast majority of FTW is still there.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Even so, it's a ridiculously fast rate. Fast enough that the clones using Susano'o got destroyed because they weren't able to absorb Jinton in time.
> Because they were encased in it, of course. And yes, that was with Tsunade's help, but that was only helping him increase the size so that they could defeat the clones. No indication of it increasing the strength unless Oonoki purposely put more into his Jinton because he had Chakra to spare.


sure, it's destroys things at a very fast rate.  now link that logic to ur argument.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Sep 16, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> if the non-explosion produces an explosion or concussive force that's animated as an explosion, then sure it can.



A PS Slash doesn't animate an explosion. It animates a huge ass cut lol. 



> Sasuke in base got much stronger from the ritual, naruto even noted that when they first started fighting.



When he noted that Sasuke got stronger, Sasuke had half of his CS activated. As far as we know, the ritual granted him CS2.



> okay, but you agree that the sum total of the damage that both techniques exert would be the same correct?



Yeah, that's probably true.



> The slash's power is concentrated in an arc or a ring, not a line.



Yeah. Regardless, what we're talking about is not something with sheer volume like a Bijudama, but length.



> And sure shinobi are more porne to getting cut, but the sum total damage that they receive from the cuts vs explosions are going to be equal if both attacks are just as powerful.  In addition to that, that's a fallacious example as the cutting attacks that you reference exert their full AoE on a singular target while madara's cutting attack is exerting only part of its AoE (like an explosion) on a singular target.



While that's true, if it's close up, it's stronger because the actual blade is touching. But yeah, a PS Slash is still more concentrated AoE than a Bijudama.



> to show you that a bijuudama's explosion is much more powerful than a raw explosion of comparable size.



That depends on the attack, obviously.



> well then that's has nothing to do with my post that compares the raw explosion of FRS and NOT the wind sphere which is what is in that pic.



Alright. Well I don't really know how powerful the explosion of Senpo FRS was lol. 




> It didn't destroy stuff behind bee, the resulting devestation was from bee's rampage after the bijuudama, as we see equal damage on all sides of bee yet he fired the dama a kilometer or two in front of himself.



What rampage are you talking about exactly? 



You can tell that the Hachibi was in the same spot as when it fired the Bijudama. Note the platform it's on. You can see it here:



Post-BD, the Hachibi didn't move until hit by Amaterasu.



> Taka was hit with the splash damage and harmed, we don't know where they were in reference to the actual explosion of the dama but the last time we saw them on panel they would have been a kilometer away from the epicenter of the blast.



No, not really. Sasuke was in bad condition as it was, and their cloaks remained in tact. There is no actual damage done to them. Oh, well Karin's glasses were damaged, but that's it. As you can see here, they were running in the same direction that the Bijudama fired. They would have been caught in its direct path when it went through Suigetsu. And as I already showed, they were caught in the splash damage as well.



> a bijuudama isn't enough to take PS out.



That's what I've been saying.



> Not if that bijuudama actually hits hashirama's defense, only if it explodes and from the looks of it hashirama was able to come out of it unscathed because he and his mokuton hid underground.



You can certainly speculate. It's hard to tell, based on what the panels give us. But it also looks like he just covered himself with Mokuton and that tanked the Bijudama's explosion. According to Madara, it was made to fight Bijuus. And he saw the Goubi as soon as the smoke cleared and commented. So I don't really think there's enough to say that he got off the Mokujin's arm and went underground with the Goubi in that very instant. But if he did, that's quite an insane body/Jutsu speed combination, don't you think?



> That's A>B>C character hype which is in no way the equivalent of a straight up Jutsu power vs jutsu power debate.  In addition to that, the only reason this is actually a debate is because both Madara and Naruto have the feats to make it one.  If Madara didn't have any feats or we couldn't compare the two with feats, then we'd turn to hype and thus Madara would beat BM Naruto.
> 
> you stated your reason for not being able to compare the two attacks against a singular target is because lack of feats.  Well, since you don't want to use feats because you think they are lacking, then we use hype.
> 
> Oh and btw by no means of hype can Madara or Hashirama wreck BSM Naruto as neither have been compared to him in either combat or statements.



Hype is not always accurate, and so it should not ever determine a debate unless the OP specifies that this is a hype battle.



> Naruto has seen the bijuudama used before and he knows how powerful it is since he knew exactly how powerful to make his damas later in the war.



But that said, he wouldn't know how his own Bijudama would fair power wise. In Bijuu Mode, he had help from Kurama.



> yeah and thus it's another reason he believes that the bijuudama is much more powerful than a FRS since it did that kind of damage to sandaime.



Except it wasn't what did that damage to him. It was his own Jutsu. So that was his own hype, that turned out to be a farce, considering what really happened.



> Check *THIS PAGE.  *
> 
> You see how much mokuton is left after oonki's jinton?  *Now compare that to how much is left after the bijuudama kurama used.*
> 
> there's like one or two pieces of wood left post bijuudama, all the other wood is stuff hashirama grew after the fact.  The vast majority of FTW is still there after oonoki jintond it.  And that's including the fact that jinton has a much smaller AoE than a bijuudama which means its power even while focused on just mokuton wasn't able to do what kurama's did.



What's your point, really? Jinton doesn't affect as much area as a Bijudama does. That doesn't mean its killing power is any less. Oonoki got rid of what was essential to stop the pollen from affecting them. By the way, part of the Mokuton that was left was also from the Jukai Koutan that Naruto stopped much much earlier. 




> Well if you are going to ignore the point that dismantles your argument: oonoki having to make at least 1 revolution, then it's a concession on your part.



What does Jinton have to do with PS or this thread? I don't even remember how it got here lol. It's not a concession. There's no way you can prove that there was 1, 2 or 3 revolutions. I would love to see it if you can though.



> *oonoki using jinton and eventually destroying a portion of FTW doesn't matter as that's not what we are discussing*, you are arguing that the only reason oonoki's jinton netted a smaller total damage to FTW was because of its smaller AoE which I showed is false as he spun more than once and the vast majority of FTW is still there.
> 
> sure, it's destroys things at a very fast rate.  now link that logic to ur argument.



At the bolded: Exactly, it's off topic. I don't know how we got to Jinton, but it's irrelevant.

Right now, it's pretty much a standstill. Agree to disagree at this point? I mean, a lot of the panels are just up for interpretation based on what we're discussing.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 16, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> A PS Slash doesn't animate an explosion. It animates a huge ass cut lol.


Brotherin, reread what you just quoted.  If a PS slash doesn't yeild an explosion, then it wouldn't apply.  However if a slash DID animate an explosion then it obviously would apply.  and that's something that hashirama's gattling punches do, they animate explosions and thus it would apply.




Master Sephiroth said:


> When he noted that Sasuke got stronger, Sasuke had half of his CS activated. As far as we know, the ritual granted him CS2.


Yet base sasuke was fairing much better against naruto than when both were fighting on the rooftop.  




Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah. Regardless, what we're talking about is not something with sheer volume like a Bijudama, but length.


that doesn't matter though.  If only 50% of the arc hits the target, then the target only takes 50% of the Sword's power just like if the target is hit directly by the bijuudama, it's going to take 50% of the bijuudama's power.





Master Sephiroth said:


> While that's true, if it's close up, it's stronger because the actual blade is touching. But yeah, a PS Slash is still more concentrated AoE than a Bijudama.


A PS slash is not more concentrated AoE than a Bijuudama because if the dama directly hits the target and explodes on it, the target is going to take 50% of the power of the attack while if a target is struck by less than 50% of the arc of the slash, it's going to take less than 50% of the power.  In addition to that, depending on the slash, the power is dissipated by tearing up the ground on its way to the target.  So no, the concentration of damage all depends.




Master Sephiroth said:


> That depends on the attack, obviously.


which you agreed would apply if the attack yielded an explosion.  Thus it would apply to attacks that yield explosions.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Alright. Well I don't really know how powerful the explosion of Senpo FRS was lol.


Look at the scan i gave you, it filled up half the chibaku tensei crater an AoE comparable to that of a normal bijuudama.





Master Sephiroth said:


> What rampage are you talking about exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He offpanel rampaged and moved.  There's no other explanation for why equal amounts of land were cleared when the hachibi fired his blast only in front of himself.  In addition to that, there are many pieces of land that the hachibi can just stand on, i don't see why the one he's on has to be the same as the one prior.




Master Sephiroth said:


> No, not really. Sasuke was in bad condition as it was, and their cloaks remained in tact. There is no actual damage done to them. Oh, well Karin's glasses were damaged, but that's it. As you can see here, they were running in the same direction that the Bijudama fired. They would have been caught in its direct path when it went through Suigetsu. And as I already showed, they were caught in the splash damage as well.


all of them are scuffed all over, that's kishi's way of showing damage.  And yeah considering they were far from the epicenter of the blast i wouldn't expect them to take large damage from it.




Master Sephiroth said:


> That's what I've been saying.


no, you've been saying a super bijuudama or any bijuudama won't destroy PS.  It's clear that the context of the little snippit you extracted was the normal bijuudama that kurama fired at VoTe and not a bijuudama the same size as ps.




Master Sephiroth said:


> You can certainly speculate. It's hard to tell, based on what the panels give us. But it also looks like he just covered himself with Mokuton and that tanked the Bijudama's explosion. According to Madara, it was made to fight Bijuus. And he saw the Goubi as soon as the smoke cleared and commented. So I don't really think there's enough to say that he got off the Mokujin's arm and went underground with the Goubi in that very instant. But if he did, that's quite an insane body/Jutsu speed combination, don't you think?


It's speculation either way.  If you want to say he didn't burrow underground, you have a burden of proof to do so.  And hashirama is not only fast, but many ninjas are able to traverse distances quickly and hide with things like body switch techniques and shunshin.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Hype is not always accurate, and so it should not ever determine a debate unless the OP specifies that this is a hype battle.


The same thing can be said for feats as well or any method of evaluation.  You can take any way of trying to evaluate two feats or powers in the manga and I could just say "the method you are using is not always accurate".  Thus just posting skepticism doesn't mean anything, rather you have to show how hype would not support my view, or evaluate the subject by another method that's better than hype.  You've already said that feats are a no go, so if we don't have any feats to go by obviously our best bet would be hype.




Master Sephiroth said:


> But that said, he wouldn't know how his own Bijudama would fair power wise. In Bijuu Mode, he had help from Kurama.


why wouldn't he know how his own bijuudama would fair?  He knows how much chakra he puts into his bijuudama, he's a sensor and has never shown surprise by the power of the bijuudamas he makes. He didn't have any help from kurama in bijuumode as bee specifically said it was naruto who mastered the ratio and could pull off the dama in BM.  If you think kurama did help him make the dama, post evidence.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Except it wasn't what did that damage to him. It was his own Jutsu. So that was his own hype, that turned out to be a farce, considering what really happened.


yeah but naruto saw the scar and thought that the bijuudama could have done that kind of damage, i.e. more damage than his FRS despite FRS's elemental affinity and thus it would have to be a more powerful attack.



Master Sephiroth said:


> What's your point, really? Jinton doesn't affect as much area as a Bijudama does. That doesn't mean its killing power is any less. Oonoki got rid of what was essential to stop the pollen from affecting them. *By the way, part of the Mokuton that was left was also from the Jukai Koutan that Naruto stopped much much earlier. *


i've made my point many MANY times do not make me repeat points.  I've shown how jinton didn't erase as significant portion of FTW not because of its low AoE but because of its inability to do so because had it been powerful enough to erase the whole FTW, it would have done so since it's fired as a laser beam and spun around.

meanwhile a bijuudama destroys the entire technique including mokujin and mokuryu, thus a bijuudama's total power is on a totally different level than jinton.

In addition to that post evidence of the bolded.  Show me where the first jukai koutan that naruto stopped, the one that made far skinnier trees than FTW, is on the map.  If you can't, its baseless.



Master Sephiroth said:


> What does Jinton have to do with PS or this thread? I don't even remember how it got here lol. It's not a concession. There's no way you can prove that there was 1, 2 or 3 revolutions. I would love to see it if you can though.


First off, i don't have to prove anything, all I have to show you is that my explanation or argument is more plausible than the alternative as no matter how compelling a case I give for any argument, there is always an alternative no matter how unlikely or ridiculous that could be posited, and thus noting can be proved.

However, what leads me to believe that it's painstakingly obvious that oonoki had to spin around multiple times was the fact that *in the scan* we see he is rotating counterclockwise, yet he's already cleared a circle mokuton around himself.  Thus the only way he could have done that is if he'd made at least 1 complete revolution with his laser, and thus the shortest radius of the clearing is at most 40 meters and thus we know that he had to make multiple rotations and that jinton doesn't instantly destroy the mokuton that it comes into contact with.

Now if you disagree with that, you not only have to show what's wrong with my reasoning but have to show why you think he only did it in one revolution.




Master Sephiroth said:


> At the bolded: Exactly, it's off topic. I don't know how we got to Jinton, but it's irrelevant.
> 
> Right now, it's pretty much a standstill. Agree to disagree at this point? I mean, a lot of the panels are just up for interpretation based on what we're discussing.


no i do not want to agree to disagree and I don't think it's a standstill.  A standstill is when we both disagree on really fundamental basic assumptions, however we haven't gotten to that point as we are currently trying to first understand each other's arguments and respond to what each other is actually saying.

However if you are tired of debating this subject, then you choosing not to continue responding wouldn't in anyway mean you concede the argument.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Sep 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Brotherin, reread what you just quoted.  If a PS slash doesn't yeild an explosion, then it wouldn't apply.  However if a slash DID animate an explosion then it obviously would apply.  and that's something that hashirama's gattling punches do, they animate explosions and thus it would apply.



Are you sure that explosion wasn't just the Bijudamas exploding plus just the sheer pressure being forced by the punches? That seems more likely. 




> Yet base sasuke was fairing much better against naruto than when both were fighting on the rooftop.



Yep, he certainly faired better than when he wasn't even released from the hospital yet. It also could be because Naruto wasn't fully resolved in fighting all out yet. 



> that doesn't matter though.  If only 50% of the arc hits the target, then the target only takes 50% of the Sword's power just like if the target is hit directly by the bijuudama, it's going to take 50% of the bijuudama's power.



I can see how you would think that. But if the person is hit directly by either attack, it takes the full force of it, regardless of how much AoE it covers. 




> A PS slash is not more concentrated AoE than a Bijuudama because if the dama directly hits the target and explodes on it, the target is going to take 50% of the power of the attack while if a target is struck by less than 50% of the arc of the slash, it's going to take less than 50% of the power.  In addition to that, depending on the slash, the power is dissipated by tearing up the ground on its way to the target.  So no, the concentration of damage all depends.



If, for the sake of the argument, that a Bijudama and PS Slash were of the same power, but the Bijudama covers more area, that means PS Slash's arc holds more power per square inch. Problem is, we have no way of really measuring power between the two types of attacks.




> Look at the scan i gave you, it filled up half the chibaku tensei crater an AoE comparable to that of a normal bijuudama.



Half? Not really. It doesn't look like it covers half of the crater in width. 




> He offpanel rampaged and moved.  There's no other explanation for why equal amounts of land were cleared when the hachibi fired his blast only in front of himself.  In addition to that, there are many pieces of land that the hachibi can just stand on, i don't see why the one he's on has to be the same as the one prior.



You mean to tell me that the Hachibi shot a Bijudama, went crazy off panel and was completely calm again by the time we see him again? What? And no, going "WHEEEE" is not rampaging. I know the chapter is called "Bull on Rampage" but that doesn't mean he LITERALLY went rampaging and did all these crazy things you claim he did but there isn't a SINGLE shred of proof of him even moving. 

Team Taka was still right in front of the Hachibi. Suigetsu was still right there in front of the Hachibi, hence where Taka found him. The positioning of both of them in respect to the Hachibi is consistent. And the only piece of land in that small area is the one that the Hachibi is on top of and the shape is consistent. The Hachibi did not move. Any attempts at saying otherwise is straight denial. 




> all of them are scuffed all over, that's kishi's way of showing damage.  And yeah considering they were far from the epicenter of the blast i wouldn't expect them to take large damage from it.



Yep, they were. 



> no, you've been saying a super bijuudama or any bijuudama won't destroy PS.  It's clear that the context of the little snippit you extracted was the normal bijuudama that kurama fired at VoTe and not a bijuudama the same size as ps.



The Bijudama's AoE was definitely more than enough to cover the Mokujin and PS. There was plenty of smoke behind Madara and Hashirama.



> It's speculation either way.  If you want to say he didn't burrow underground, you have a burden of proof to do so.  And hashirama is not only fast, but many ninjas are able to traverse distances quickly and hide with things like body switch techniques and shunshin.



I know Hashirama's fast. Some of the other members were trying to say otherwise. The manga only shows him above ground and no Doton hole or anything like that. That is a very important detail that would be left out. So it's more plausible that no, he did not burrow underground with a Mokuton Jutsu that is "made to fight tailed beasts".




> The same thing can be said for feats as well or any method of evaluation.  You can take any way of trying to evaluate two feats or powers in the manga and I could just say "the method you are using is not always accurate".  Thus just posting skepticism doesn't mean anything, rather you have to show how hype would not support my view, or evaluate the subject by another method that's better than hype.  You've already said that feats are a no go, so if we don't have any feats to go by obviously our best bet would be hype.



Look, if you like to deal with hype to get to your own conclusions, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect everyone to accept that as canon.



> why wouldn't he know how his own bijuudama would fair?  He knows how much chakra he puts into his bijuudama, he's a sensor and has never shown surprise by the power of the bijuudamas he makes. He didn't have any help from kurama in bijuumode as bee specifically said it was naruto who mastered the ratio and could pull off the dama in BM.  If you think kurama did help him make the dama, post evidence.



Even as a sensor, you cannot tell how powerful a Jutsu is going to be before you've even successfully made one. That's just nonsense. He might have a reference, and he might have thought that could have worked against the Third Raikage since he thought the Hachibi caused that scar. The latter is the most likely reason. And just because he thinks the power will work, doesn't mean it will work. 

Oh and Naruto couldn't do it before, but now that Kurama is helping him out, he can do it. Connect the dots.



> yeah but naruto saw the scar and thought that the bijuudama could have done that kind of damage, i.e. more damage than his FRS despite FRS's elemental affinity and thus it would have to be a more powerful attack.



Once again, it was probably more so based off the fact that he was specifically told that the scar came from his battle with the Hachibi. So naturally he would assume that his most powerful attack caused it. And as I said, just because he thinks it would work doesn't mean it would.




> In addition to that post evidence of the bolded.  Show me where the first jukai koutan that naruto stopped, the one that made far skinnier trees than FTW, is on the map.  If you can't, its baseless.



Okay, fair enough. I don't have proof that they were next to each other.



> First off, i don't have to prove anything, all I have to show you is that my explanation or argument is more plausible than the alternative as no matter how compelling a case I give for any argument, there is always an alternative no matter how unlikely or ridiculous that could be posited, and thus noting can be proved.



Yeah, sure. But unlikely and ridiculous alternatives usually aren't true if there is far less evidence to support them...

With that mentality you can make up whatever you want and try to pass it off as plausibility just because we didn't see what fully happened.



> However, what leads me to believe that it's painstakingly obvious that oonoki had to spin around multiple times was the fact that *in the scan* we see he is rotating counterclockwise, yet he's already cleared a circle mokuton around himself.  Thus the only way he could have done that is if he'd made at least 1 complete revolution with his laser, and thus the shortest radius of the clearing is at most 40 meters and thus we know that he had to make multiple rotations and that jinton doesn't instantly destroy the mokuton that it comes into contact with.



I don't understand. Isn't that the end of the technique? I just don't see enough evidence either way to make a judgement call. And once again, what does this have to do with PS?



> no i do not want to agree to disagree and I don't think it's a standstill.  A standstill is when we both disagree on really fundamental basic assumptions, however we haven't gotten to that point as we are currently trying to first understand each other's arguments and respond to what each other is actually saying.



Really though, we are disagreeing on a lot of panels that are up to interpretation. That's pretty much what it has come down to. A lot of interpretation. 



> However if you are tired of debating this subject, then you choosing not to continue responding wouldn't in anyway mean you concede the argument.



I am tired of it. I know it doesn't mean conceding the argument. It just gets tedious after a while.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 17, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Are you sure that explosion wasn't just the Bijudamas exploding plus just the sheer pressure being forced by the punches? That seems more likely.


yep that's exactly what it was, however the force of the punches produced explosions and that explosion would thus be compared to other explosions to see how the attacks stack up against each other.





Master Sephiroth said:


> Yep, he certainly faired better than when he wasn't even released from the hospital yet. It also could be because Naruto wasn't fully resolved in fighting all out yet.


It was never implied that sasuke was weakened or gimped against naruto, naruto was fighting with even less of his power at the hospital and he was even using initial KN0.




Master Sephiroth said:


> I can see how you would think that. But if the person is hit directly by either attack, it takes the full force of it, regardless of how much AoE it covers.


no they don't.  To take the full force of a bijuudama, they'd have to swallow it like the juubi did.  To take the full force of the PS swing they'd have to be so big the whole arc hits them.  Else part of the slash travels on and exerts wasted energy on the environment, else part of the bijuudama wastse energy on the envirnonment.





Master Sephiroth said:


> If, for the sake of the argument, that a Bijudama and PS Slash were of the same power, but the Bijudama covers more area, that means PS Slash's arc holds more power per square inch. Problem is, we have no way of really measuring power between the two types of attacks.


i'd say that's true that an PS slash's hold more power per square inch than a bijuudama.  However the ability for the dama to exert at least half of its power on a target if it hits it makes that irrelevant.

And we do have ways of measuring the power between those two attacks:  you sum up the total destruction that both cause in order to see which attack is stronger, or you use hype which says that madara's PS slashes are equal to a normal bijuudama.





Master Sephiroth said:


> Half? Not really. It doesn't look like it covers half of the crater in width.


you know what i mean.  That crater is wide enough to encompass a bunch of mountains.  And i guess since you haven't stated anything about what my post addresses: that it's comparable to the size of a bijuudama blast that you agree with that.





Master Sephiroth said:


> You mean to tell me that the Hachibi shot a Bijudama, went crazy off panel and was completely calm again by the time we see him again? What? And no, going "WHEEEE" is not rampaging. I know the chapter is called "Bull on Rampage" but that doesn't mean he LITERALLY went rampaging and did all these crazy things you claim he did but there isn't a SINGLE shred of proof of him even moving.


Sure there is proof, it's exactly as i told you that he HAD to have moved.  Bee let loose a bijuudama, then proceeded to chase taka around demolishing the land as he did so.  



Master Sephiroth said:


> Team Taka was still right in front of the Hachibi. Suigetsu was still right there in front of the Hachibi, hence where Taka found him. The positioning of both of them in respect to the Hachibi is consistent. And the only piece of land in that small area is the one that the Hachibi is on top of and the shape is consistent. The Hachibi did not move. Any attempts at saying otherwise is straight denial.


Already addressed the land portion, obviously they are going to be positioned together and away from the hachibi.

So your post can be explained, however you have no explanation as to why everything around bee is devestated and smoldering despite him launching a bijuuwave in a singular direction.





Master Sephiroth said:


> The Bijudama's AoE was definitely more than enough to cover the Mokujin and PS. There was plenty of smoke behind Madara and Hashirama.


I'm not talking about the AoE of the bijuudama rather the unexploded super bijuudama itself, and i'm pretty sure you know that as well.  Please do not make me have to explain the obvious.




Master Sephiroth said:


> I know Hashirama's fast. Some of the other members were trying to say otherwise. The manga only shows him above ground and no Doton hole or anything like that. That is a very important detail that would be left out. So it's more plausible that no, he did not burrow underground with a Mokuton Jutsu that is "made to fight tailed beasts".


Why would there be a doton hole if he and his technique are the ones that burrowed underground



Master Sephiroth said:


> Look, if you like to deal with hype to get to your own conclusions, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect everyone to accept that as canon.


  Your response has nothing to do with the logic and reasoning of the post you've just quoted.  Do not ignore my arguments, an ignored argument is a conceded one.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Even as a sensor, you cannot tell how powerful a Jutsu is going to be before you've even successfully made one. That's just nonsense.


no its not.  If bijuudamas get all their power from pure chakra quantity and naruto via sensing knows the power to chakra quantity of a bijuudama, then he's going to know how powerful it is without having to make one.



Master Sephiroth said:


> He might have a reference, and he might have thought that could have worked against the Third Raikage since he thought the Hachibi caused that scar. The latter is the most likely reason. And just because he thinks the power will work, doesn't mean it will work.


The very fact that he thinks the power might work is proof enough that it's much more powerful than FRS as FRS has the wind advantage over the RnY and still didn't do anything significant to him while he thought the dama had a chance of beating sandaime.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Oh and Naruto couldn't do it before, but now that Kurama is helping him out, he can do it. Connect the dots.


It was explicitly stated that naruto needed to master the 8:2 black to white chakra ratio in order to use the bijuudama.  that's exactly what bee and the gyuuki were talking about when naruto made his first bijuudama, and that has nothing to do with kurama helping him out.




Master Sephiroth said:


> *Once again, it was probably more so based off the fact that he was specifically told that the scar came from his battle with the Hachibi.* So naturally he would assume that his most powerful attack caused it. And as I said, just because he thinks it would work doesn't mean it would.


well you'd have to give reasons for the bolded.  And now you are saying my argument has to show that it's necessarily true?  You do know that no argument that hardly any arguments even feat arguments can show they are necessarily true.  It's all about plausibility and thus the burden of proof is on you to show that it WOULD'T work.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Yeah, sure. But unlikely and ridiculous alternatives usually aren't true if there is far less evidence to support them...


and that can only be accomplished by bringing up alternative arguments.  Yet what you are doing is simply prodding at my own arguments while errecting/supporting no alternative arguments with any kind of evidence or reasoning.  



Master Sephiroth said:


> With that mentality you can make up whatever you want and try to pass it off as plausibility just because we didn't see what fully happened.


it's not trying to pass something off as "plausibility" it's trying to show which is the MOST PLAUSIBLE explanation for the evidence.  There is no subjective level of 'this is plausible enough' for it to be considered a good argument as that just allows anyone to assert their own subjective criteria of what is plausible enough and thus the biased guy can just reject any argument he wants to as "not plausible enough". 




Master Sephiroth said:


> I don't understand. Isn't that the end of the technique? I just don't see enough evidence either way to make a judgement call. And once again, what does this have to do with PS?


you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean by end of the technique.

And you saying "there isn't enough evidence either way to make a judgement call" is simply you not wanting to acknowledge my own argument as the most plausible explanation.  You haven't even shown any argument for an alternative explanation of the evidence.

And this has to do with PS because it would show a bijuudama is more than capable of damaging the technique since it's much more powerful than jinton.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Really though, we are disagreeing on a lot of panels that are up to interpretation. That's pretty much what it has come down to. A lot of interpretation.


sure we are discussing a lot of panels, but that's not the problem the problem is the logic and reasoning in which we use to evaluate those panels.  

If you interpret something differently, then you should be able to give your reasoning for your interpretation and thus we can compare our reasoning and see which one is the more supported, which one's cater to the least assumptions etc.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Sep 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yep that's exactly what it was, however the force of the punches produced explosions and that explosion would thus be compared to other explosions to see how the attacks stack up against each other.



Do you see the difference though? The punch's power was not in the explosion, but in the physical punch itself. The AoE is not emulating the power here. Especially since the majority of the pressure was blocked by PS and the Biju-Shurikens. 



> It was never implied that sasuke was weakened or gimped against naruto, naruto was fighting with even less of his power at the hospital and he was even using initial KN0.



Nope. Naruto was base the entire time against Sasuke until this point:



Then 0TK Naruto took on Base Sasuke relatively easily until 3 Tomoe Sharingan. 

What do you mean by he was fighting with even less of his power at the hospital? That's crap. He used a Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu and fought him in straight Taijutsu. If anything, it was Sasuke who wasn't using his full power (in base mode). He didn't use his speed at all against Naruto. You know, that same speed that could blitz Sasuke before the Chidori training, who happened to have the same databook rating as Naruto in the second databook.



> no they don't.  *To take the full force of a bijuudama, they'd have to swallow it like the juubi did. * To take the full force of the PS swing they'd have to be so big the whole arc hits them.  Else part of the slash travels on and exerts wasted energy on the environment, else part of the bijuudama wastse energy on the envirnonment.



Okay, you're right about the bolded. The full force of a Bijudama would be taking in the entire explosion, because that's how an explosion works. To take the full force of a sword swing would be to take the full force of the swing itself, not the arc it follows. In the case of a PS Slash, the destruction arc is only a result of the sheer pressure that the sword swing exudes. It's a result of the sword swing, which is the full power. 

Basically, once that sword slashes, the full power distributes itself into that arc, but the sword itself still contains the full power. Do you understand what I mean by this? If you swung a sword at a branch and cut clean it in half, it took the full brunt of your swing. It's literally no different if you swung the sword with so much force that a trail follows. The branch still took the full brunt of your sword, except shit behind it got cut by the splash damage. 



> i'd say that's true that an PS slash's hold more power per square inch than a bijuudama.  However the ability for the dama to exert at least half of its power on a target if it hits it makes that irrelevant.



Bijudama's most powerful spot is its epicenter. As you get further and further from it, it gets less and less powerful. So really, in terms of power per square inch, a PS Slash is way more ideal except maybe the Bijudama's epicenter.



> And we do have ways of measuring the power between those two attacks:  you sum up the total destruction that both cause in order to see which attack is stronger, or you use hype which says that madara's PS slashes are equal to a normal bijuudama.



You're just ignoring what I'm saying, aren't you? AoE is not the ultimate indicator of power and hype is certainly not either.



> you know what i mean.  That crater is wide enough to encompass a bunch of mountains.  And i guess since you haven't stated anything about what my post addresses: that it's comparable to the size of a bijuudama blast that you agree with that.



Okay, so it should be comparable to the size of a Bijudama. But we don't know how powerful that explosion was, because it never hit anyone.



> Sure there is proof, it's exactly as i told you that he HAD to have moved.  Bee let loose a bijuudama, then proceeded to chase taka around demolishing the land as he did so.



Obviously the Bijudama had shockwave damage that covered behind him. 



> Already addressed the land portion, obviously they are going to be positioned together and away from the hachibi.



They were in front of the Hachibi. And are you saying the Hachibi randomly stopped when we see him again? They found Suigetsu right in front of them, which is consistent with the Bijudama going right through him and would have blown him back. If the Hachibi had been chasing around them, they would be DEAD. Karin doesn't have any type of speed that can avoid the freaking Hachibi and she was helping Sasuke move. 



> So your post can be explained, however you have no explanation as to why everything around bee is devestated and smoldering despite him launching a bijuuwave in a singular direction.



I did explain. The shockwaves or extra splash damage caused it. 




> I'm not talking about the AoE of the bijuudama rather the unexploded super bijuudama itself, and i'm pretty sure you know that as well.  Please do not make me have to explain the obvious.



Oh, I see what you're saying now. Assuming Kurama's Bijuu Mode is anywhere even close to half-Kyuubi's size, then Perfect Susano'o is bigger. Kurama's size decreased more than just in half when Shiki Fujin happened. And PS is easily just as big as Kurama if not bigger.



> Why would there be a doton hole if he and his technique are the ones that burrowed underground



Look, all I'm saying is that there is nothing to show that. It's an important detail that wouldn't have been left out if he was underground. 



> Your response has nothing to do with the logic and reasoning of the post you've just quoted.  Do not ignore my arguments, an ignored argument is a conceded one.



It's not an argument. It's trying to justify the use of hype.



> no its not.  If bijuudamas get all their power from pure chakra quantity and naruto via sensing knows the power to chakra quantity of a bijuudama, then he's going to know how powerful it is without having to make one.



Not every Jutsu with the same Chakra output is the same strength.



> The very fact that he thinks the power might work is proof enough that it's much more powerful than FRS as FRS has the wind advantage over the RnY and still didn't do anything significant to him while he thought the dama had a chance of beating sandaime.



Susano'o saved Itachi from Kirin. Sasuke tried exploding tags and his Kusanagi after that. I guess that means that he thought the exploding tags and his katana are stronger than Kirin. 



> It was explicitly stated that naruto needed to master the 8:2 black to white chakra ratio in order to use the bijuudama.  that's exactly what bee and the gyuuki were talking about when naruto made his first bijuudama, and that has nothing to do with kurama helping him out.



And he couldn't do it in KM. Why? Why couldn't he do it before when Kurama wasn't helping him but all of the sudden, as soon as their Chakras melded, he can do it just fine?



> well you'd have to give reasons for the bolded.  And now you are saying my argument has to show that it's necessarily true?  You do know that no argument that hardly any arguments even feat arguments can show they are necessarily true.  It's all about plausibility and thus the burden of proof is on you to show that it WOULD'T work.



Oh the Hachibi caused that scar? Oh wait, I just remembered. The Bijudama! Oh wait, the Hachibi caused that scar? Oh yeah, the Bijudama! 



> and that can only be accomplished by bringing up alternative arguments.  Yet what you are doing is simply prodding at my own arguments while errecting/supporting no alternative arguments with any kind of evidence or reasoning.
> 
> it's not trying to pass something off as "plausibility" it's trying to show which is the MOST PLAUSIBLE explanation for the evidence.  There is no subjective level of 'this is plausible enough' for it to be considered a good argument as that just allows anyone to assert their own subjective criteria of what is plausible enough and thus the biased guy can just reject any argument he wants to as "not plausible enough".
> 
> ...



So in your opinion, a positive plausible stance is better than a no stance based on ambiguity? Look, I'll respect that, but I do not agree. I don't commit to a stance that is too ambiguous. I'm open-minded.



> sure we are discussing a lot of panels, but that's not the problem the problem is the logic and reasoning in which we use to evaluate those panels.
> 
> If you interpret something differently, then you should be able to give your reasoning for your interpretation and thus we can compare our reasoning and see which one is the more supported, which one's cater to the least assumptions etc.



And you don't think that making up plausible scenarios doesn't cater to assumptions? I've only argued based on what the manga has showed us. That has the least amount of assumptions. But yeah, I am tired of debating this subject as it's getting nowhere.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 17, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Do you see the difference though? The punch's power was not in the explosion, but in the physical punch itself. The AoE is not emulating the power here. Especially since the majority of the pressure was blocked by PS and the Biju-Shurikens.


Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, if the punch hits PS, the resultant force still travels through PS and into the ground which thus causes the explosion we see and thus we still are able to gauge the power of the punches by the explosion.

Bijuu shurikens didn't block the punches it destroyed arms before the arms could make contact which has nothing to do with the force that PS took.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Nope. Naruto was base the entire time against Sasuke until this point:
> 
> 
> 
> Then 0TK Naruto took on Base Sasuke relatively easily until 3 Tomoe Sharingan.


Naruto's eyes were slitted well before that which shows he is using kurama's power.



Master Sephiroth said:


> What do you mean by he was fighting with even less of his power at the hospital? That's crap. He used a Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu and fought him in straight Taijutsu. If anything, it was Sasuke who wasn't using his full power (in base mode). He didn't use his speed at all against Naruto. You know, that same speed that could blitz Sasuke before the Chidori training, who happened to have the same databook rating as Naruto in the second databook.


Sasuke couldn't blitz naruto with his speed, we saw that sasuke was significantly slower than 1T gaara and even he wasn't blitzing naruto.  

At the hospital, naruto was far less serious on fighting sasuke than he was at VoTe.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Okay, you're right about the bolded. The full force of a Bijudama would be taking in the entire explosion, because that's how an explosion works. To take the full force of a sword swing would be to take the full force of the swing itself, not the arc it follows. In the case of a PS Slash, the destruction arc is only a result of the sheer pressure that the sword swing exudes. It's a result of the sword swing, which is the full power.


no it's the result of the sword being swung by PS.  if it was simply PS's physical strength doing that, madara could swing any construct and it would produce a slash of that kind of power.  If it had that much power mokujin would be able to do it as well considering it's strong enough to hold PS's arm down.

And the pressure that the swing exerts contains the full power of that swing when the swing is completed the entire momentum of the swing has been exerted in that arc of destruction.  



Master Sephiroth said:


> Basically, once that sword slashes, the full power distributes itself into that arc, but the sword itself still contains the full power. Do you understand what I mean by this? If you swung a sword at a branch and cut clean it in half, it took the full brunt of your swing. It's literally no different if you swung the sword with so much force that a trail follows. The branch still took the full brunt of your sword, except shit behind it got cut by the splash damage.


That's not how the PS blades work as the slash can be stopped mid strike by mokuton arms with no damage to them, yet the mere pressure exerted by a 360 spin easily cuts those arms.  




Master Sephiroth said:


> Bijudama's most powerful spot is its epicenter. As you get further and further from it, it gets less and less powerful. So really, in terms of power per square inch, a PS Slash is way more ideal except maybe the Bijudama's epicenter.


now you've changed your stance to argue that the power per square inch is more ideal instead of greater for a PS slash.  But that's not even true as well since a bijuudama would be much better at taking out a smaller target than a PS slash since the smaller target would be taking a tiny portion of PS's slash while taking 50% of the dama's blast if the dama isn't larger than the target.




Master Sephiroth said:


> You're just ignoring what I'm saying, aren't you? AoE is not the ultimate indicator of power and hype is certainly not either.


It's not AoE, it's the sum total of the damage the technique did to its environment.  If you want to argue that a technique was limited by its AoE, then that would be true, however if the total power of the technique was exerted on the environment, then you'd most definitely be able to use that sum total as a gauge for the technique's power.

And it doesn't matter if you don't like using hype, if you have no other way of evaluating the power of an attack, then that's the only thing you have to work with.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Okay, so it should be comparable to the size of a Bijudama. But we don't know how powerful that explosion was, because it never hit anyone.


Yet we just spent the last page discussing how the power of a bijuudama compares to normal explosions and trying to using reasoning in order to find the most plausible outcome.  You simply saying "we don't know" adds nothing to our knowledge, it's just skepticism that you could poke at any kind of argument no matter how compelling or not.  




Master Sephiroth said:


> Obviously the Bijudama had shockwave damage that covered behind him.


Really?  Can you show me an example of any other bijuudama producing shockwave damage in the opposite direction of its explosion and show that the damage was equal to the damage of the actual explosion as well?




Master Sephiroth said:


> They were in front of the Hachibi. And are you saying the Hachibi randomly stopped when we see him again? They found Suigetsu right in front of them, which is consistent with the Bijudama going right through him and would have blown him back. If the Hachibi had been chasing around them, they would be DEAD. Karin doesn't have any type of speed that can avoid the freaking Hachibi and she was helping Sasuke move.


Bee isn't a sensor, it wouldn't be easy to find taka after the debri a giant blast kicked up while in a that batltefield.  Hachibi stopping would be explained by there being random breaks in  the action of almost every battle we've seen.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Oh, I see what you're saying now. Assuming Kurama's Bijuu Mode is anywhere even close to half-Kyuubi's size, then Perfect Susano'o is bigger. Kurama's size decreased more than just in half when Shiki Fujin happened. And PS is easily just as big as Kurama if not bigger.


Again none of that has anything to do with my argument that naruto's super bijuudama is comparable in size to PS.  Sure BM Naruto is much smaller than 100% Kurama, sure PS is comparable in size to 100% Kurama.  



Master Sephiroth said:


> Look, all I'm saying is that there is nothing to show that. It's an important detail that wouldn't have been left out if he was underground.


Why?




Master Sephiroth said:


> It's not an argument. It's trying to justify the use of hype.


well then if you are not arguing anything, then you concede the points of that post.  




Master Sephiroth said:


> Not every Jutsu with the same Chakra output is the same strength.


sure, but naruto is comparing a bijuudama with less chakra to a bijuudama with more chakra.  So unless you are going to argue that a bijuudama can't be compared to another by chakra quantity, then your post doesn't add anything to the discussion, you are merely typing filler.




Master Sephiroth said:


> Susano'o saved Itachi from Kirin. Sasuke tried exploding tags and his Kusanagi after that. I guess that means that he thought the exploding tags and his katana are stronger than Kirin.


Or he might have thought that the exploding tags would have slown the technique down.  Or it was a desperation move as that was all he had left in his arsenal.



Master Sephiroth said:


> And he couldn't do it in KM. Why? Why couldn't he do it before when Kurama wasn't helping him but all of the sudden, as soon as their Chakras melded, he can do it just fine?


Because he learned it right there and then.  He was later shown having no problems doing it in KCM as well.  The manga explicitly states the 1 and only 1 reason naruto can't use bijuudama: the chakra ratio, and then when naruto uses his first one we get Bee and Gyuuki referencing his training to get that ratio down.  





Master Sephiroth said:


> Oh the Hachibi caused that scar? Oh wait, I just remembered. The Bijudama! Oh wait, the Hachibi caused that scar? Oh yeah, the Bijudama!


well if you are going to stoop to kindergarden level argumentation (i.e. "i know u are but what am i?") then go to narutobase or just tell me so we can end this discussion right here.



Master Sephiroth said:


> So in your opinion, a positive plausible stance is better than a no stance based on ambiguity? Look, I'll respect that, but I do not agree. I don't commit to a stance that is too ambiguous. I'm open-minded.


Nope, my opinion is that we should strive to recognize the positive plausible stance and if we had to make a decision we should pick that one. 

The only reason to refrain from making a decision based on ambiguity is because there could be negative reprecussion or more information revealed in the future, and your actions after the decision being made might be irreversible.   

However that's not the case if we are just talking about a manga, there are no reprecussions for choosing a stance and there is nothing holding one back from rescinding a stance upon information that is later revealed in the manga.

On the other hand, your reasoning would allow anyone to just jerrymander any argument that they don't like using the guise of "ambiguous" or "not enough information, not justified, etc".  

Thus the sacrifice is taking a stance right now, a stance that can easily be revoked with no reprecussion in order to prevent dishonesty that would allow no truth or fruitful discussion to be had about any aspect of the manga.




Master Sephiroth said:


> And you don't think that making up plausible scenarios doesn't cater to assumptions? I've only argued based on what the manga has showed us. That has the least amount of assumptions. But yeah, I am tired of debating this subject as it's getting nowhere.


Brotherin, I KNOW that making up plausible scenarios cater to assumptions, all of my arguments as well as your cater to assumptions, however the plausibility of the arguments are based on the plausibility of those basic underlying assumptions and thus that's how we can flesh out how supported each argument actually is.


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