# The Itachi/Jiriyia/Orochimaru Clusterfuck



## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

To me Itachi/Orochimaru/Jiriyia rankings in the manga have caused a huge Custerfuck on the forum to the point where they use different statements and outcomes to elevate Itachi yet demote Jiriyia, when you thinks about it nothing has been shown or really stated that separates these 3 characters in power.

1. Itachi vs Jiriyia

I know this has been debated to no end on the forums, but to me Jiriyia and Itachi are definelty close in power from statements made, to their feats, to even their powers being comparable.

A. Itachi in making a direct statement about comparing his respective power to Jiriyia says he would stalemate , this statement is supported by 

* Itachi facing 3 of the strongest jounins in the village that would greatly damage konoha's military strength, so why would he face them but be gunshy to face Jiriyia 

* Itachi and Kisame both were playing each other, why would Itachi chose to opt out of a fight that would make Kisame more suspicious , if Itachi could've defeated Jiriyia with minimal effort he would've done so, but he knew a fight against Jiriyia would cost him his life.

* We have Naruto comparing his power SM to Sasuke MS, implying that they were equal same thing Itachi did, now Jiriyia SM is imperfect, Itachi was suffering from Illness so it evens out.

* In the fight Itachi struggled the most, it was against Kabuto who was using SM, think about who thought Kabuto of all people would have SM, this was Kishi subtle way of justifying what he has stated throughout the manga that SM and MS are to be seen as equal power ups , now Kabuto did have other enhancements , but Itachi also ad Sasuke helping him so that evens it out.

* There are other minor things like how they parallel in the story, how they have the same statistical score in the databook, they share similar ideals , these are things you can take or leave but they do serve as evidence that Itachi and Jiriyia are shinobi off the same level.


 2. Itachi  vs Orochimaru 

Itachi vs Orochimaru , most people use the fact they believe Itachi>>>>>>>Orochimaru as a way to separate Itachi from Jiriyia's level, but what people fail to realize is that Itachi never defeated Orochimaru effortlessly, when he chopped Orochimaru hand off in that flashback he didn't defeat Orochimaru , He just showed that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to overtake Itach's body, he wasn't strong enough to defeat Itachi without killing him , why would he try to kill Itachi when he wanted his body.

Orochimaru also says Itachi is stronger than me after his bout with 3rd Hokage, but there's a couple off factors people fail to grasp with this statement.

* Orochimaru who prides himself on his mastery of ninjutsu had his arms sealed by the 3rd Hokage when he made that statement

* During the course of the manga Orochimaru had access to Edo Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, and had the DNA off Ther powerful shinobi of he wanted to take Itachi out he could easily have prepped himself to attack Itachi, as there's no way that Itachi could defeat all of those powerful Edo Tensei on own, but Orochimaru was unwilling to do that because he wanted his body.

* When Itachi finally does defeat Orochimaru it took his strongest technique which Orochimaru had no knowledge off to defeat Orochimaru and at the cost of his own life, had Orochimaru had Knowldge off Itachi's illness he wouldnt have been so gunshy to attack him

* recently even Sasuke comments on how Orochimaru was weakned during their encounter, Sasuke is telling the reader that Orochimaru is much stronger than he has shown in this manga 

I think it's okay to say Itachi is stronger than Orochimarj but the difference in their power is so minimal that it doesn't elevate Itachi to another tier, that would be like saying Hashirama is in another tier than Madara, or that Kakashi is in another tier than Gai because he's slightly stronger.


3. Jiriyia vs Orochimaru 

Most think that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiriyia based off statements and events that happened in the manga that I think are misinterpreted by the reader 


A. Jiriyia said he failed to bring Orochimaru back to the village

1. Jiriyia like Naruto wants to bring Orochimaru back to the village, that means that when he fought Orochimaru he wasn't fighting with killer intent, in order for one to defeat a shinobi without killing them, said shinobi would have to be much stronger, so Jiriyia wasn't strong enough to defeat Orochimaru without killing him.

B. Orochimaru mocks Jiriyia

1. This has nothing to do with  actual power level , it's just he's mocking Jiriyia's ideals as a ninja, Jiriyia values the will of fire, while Orochimaru values mastering ninjutsu, so of anything he thinks his way of shinobi is superior than Jiriyia it has nothing to do with him thinking he's stronger, same as Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke knows how string Naruto is but his pride in his own power and his beliefs as a ninja don't coincides with Naruto , so he'll always think he's better than Naruto, until Naruto lays the smack down.


C. Orochimaru was the Sannin that stood out for talent

1. This is again similar to Sasuke and Naruto as Sasuke was the one who stood out for his talent, but through Naruto's guts and WOF he will be able to surpass the talent level off Sasuke, same as Jiriyia, Orochimaru had more talent, but Jiriyia worked harder and was able to learn Sage Mode and he was able to gain strength by fighting to protect others and with that he eventually surpassed Orochimaru, Tsunade even tells Jiriyia that Hiruzen wanted him to be Hokage.

I think this is enough evidence to support Jiriyia being equal or slightly stronger than Orochimarj, in addition to this he has a higher statistical score in the databook, and all of the WOF rivals Hashirama, Naruto, Hiruzen were stronger than Madara, Danzo, and Sasuke, so Jiriyia being stronger coincides with the theme of the manga

I think I have given NF enough evidence to show that Orochimaru, Itachi, and Jiriyia are all on the same level.


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think I have given NF enough evidence to show that Orochimaru, Itachi, and Jiriyia are all on the same level.



I think this is the 3rd thread this week spamming the same nonsense, Itachi is a couple of tiers above Sannin.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.

I'm sorry, but if you can't understand this incredibly basic point, you should reread the manga on Itachi's intentions.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> I think this is the 3rd thread this week spamming the same nonsense, Itachi is a couple of tiers above Sannin.




Nothing in the manga supports your notion

He died to defeat Orochimaru and said he and Jiriyia are equal yet you came to the conclusion that Itachi is a couple tiers above the Sannin.


@ Seph, why would he attack Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi who were valuable shinobi off the leaf as well, he also Wouldn't want to blow his cover with Kisame so why risk it of he couldve easily defeat Jiriyia, it's because he could only defeat Jiriyia at the cost of his life.


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Nothing in the manga supports your notion
> 
> He died to defeat Orochimaru and said he and Jiriyia are equal yet you came to the conclusion that Itachi is a couple tiers above the Sannin.



Thx dude you are making my day   if this world was full of people like you


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> Itachi is a couple of tiers above Sannin.





> spamming the same nonsense,



The idea that Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya is valid, but the comaprison of SM and MS is also so. Moreover, Itachi could've told a different lie than "we'd be equal" as a reason to run.


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you can't understand this incredibly basic point, you should reread the manga on Itachi's intentions.



Basicaly, this.

Not sure why people can't understand it.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

> @ Seph, why would he attack Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi who were valuable shinobi off the leaf as well, he also Wouldn't want to blow his cover with Kisame so why risk it of he couldve easily defeat Jiriyia, it's because he could only defeat Jiriyia at the cost of his life.



Jiraiya actually had a good reputation, so it gave Itachi a valid excuse to flee. Unlike the previous jounin, Kisame would've laughed at him if he fled from them.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Thx dude you are making my day   if this world was full of people like you




So Itachi doesnt want to hurt Jiriyia yet he put Sasuke in the hospital?


@ Seph, so Jiriyia's rep is valid to make Itachi flee, but not valid to say he's in the same ballpark with Itachi


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> So Itachi doesnt want to hurt Jiriyia yet he put Sasuke in the hospital?



To make Sasuke hate him.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> To make Sasuke hate him.


As if he didn't before? Tsukiyomi was plain overkill.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> To make Sasuke hate him.



But wouldn't fleeing from Jiriyia also blow the evil brother act to Sasuke as well.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> But wouldn't fleeing from Jiriyia also blow the evil brother act to Sasuke as well.



..........It's like you're not even making any sense at all anymore.

He already killed his family. Whatever Itachi could do to other ninja at that point was meaningless.



> As if he didn't before? Tsukiyomi was plain overkill.



But before he wasn't seeking power, was he? It worked.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> ..........It's like you're not even making any sense at all anymore.
> 
> He already killed his family. Whatever Itachi could do to other ninja at that point was meaningless.
> 
> ...




It makes perfect sense, he knew he couldn't defeat Jiriyia without the cost of his life, he don't want to blow his cover with Kisame or with Sasuke, but as Tobi said he was sick and had to save himself for Sasuke's sake.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> But before he wasn't seeking power, was he? It worked.



Doesn't change the fact. Sasuke was utterly and thoroughly outclassed without Tsukiyomi. It is not Tsukiyomi that made him seek power, it was getting his ass thrashed so soundly despite all his training up to that point that tipped him over.

It isn't exactly difficult for Itachi for physically knock him out instead of inflicting him with Tsukiyomi, particularly when he had no assurance of Tsunade being capable of healing damage of that nature.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Doesn't change the fact. Sasuke was utterly and thoroughly outclassed without Tsukiyomi. *It is not Tsukiyomi that made him seek power, *it was getting his ass thrashed so soundly despite all his training up to that point that tipped him over.



Woah, I didn't know you could read Kishimoto's mind. Can you tell me who the final villain is going to be?


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## Sniffers (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Itachi vs Jiriyia
> 
> _-snip-_
> Itachi in making a direct statement about comparing his respective power to Jiriyia says he would stalemate , this statement is supported by
> ...



Itachi didn't want to face them either. He didn't want to fight, but once they insisted Itachi had to play along.
Fighting Jiraiya wouldn't be an easy task.
Sasuke implied they weren't equals.
Kabuto =/= Jiraiya. This subtle hint is rather wishful thinking.
Those parallels are indeed minor in comparison to the parallels with Minato.



Eliyua23 said:


> 2. Itachi  vs Orochimaru
> 
> * Orochimaru who prides himself on his mastery of ninjutsu had his arms sealed by the 3rd Hokage when he made that statement
> 
> ...


Yeah, Itachi merely chopped off his hand, but if you didn't get the vibe that Itachi was clearly portrayed as superior then Orochimaru wasn't clearly superior to Kakashi back in part 1 either. let's be honest here.

Also, if you are going to argue that Orochimaru merely meant his most recent state being (he only just lost his arm) then why not make the same excuse for Itachi? He had already fought three Konoha Jounin and had used Tsukuyomi that day. So when Itachi said he'd tie with Jiraiya did he actually account for himself being significantly weakened before facing Jiraiya? We can both make such excuses and it really is only preference that decides what you and I believe.



Eliyua23 said:


> 3. Jiriyia vs Orochimaru
> 
> Most think that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiriyia based off statements and events that happened in the manga that I think are misinterpreted by the reader
> 
> ...


Well, personally I see Jiraiya and Orochimaru as rivals and also based on what you say here (and also on plot function) I have always concluded they are on the same level. Either one could be stronger, but any difference would be irrelevant.


The way I see it is that Jiraiya and Orochimaru basically helped Naruto and Sasuke to meet their goals of surpassing Minato and Itachi respectively. They are the stepping stones to Minato and Itachi and as such not on their level. Does that mean Minato and Itachi wouldn't struggle with these Sannin? No, the Sannin are legendary shinobi and would give them a hard time.


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## BroKage (Jul 29, 2012)

For every wanker putting Itachi at Nagato lvl, there's somebody putting him at Sannin lvl.

Sad how reading comprehension is dead.


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Doesn't change the fact. Sasuke was utterly and thoroughly outclassed without Tsukiyomi. It is not Tsukiyomi that made him seek power, it was getting his ass thrashed so soundly despite all his training up to that point that tipped him over.



He had to remind him of his life goal because Sasuke had already started to accept Will of Fire bullcrap.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Itachi didn't want to face them either. He didn't want to fight, but once they insisted Itachi had to play along.
> Fighting Jiraiya wouldn't be an easy task.
> Sasuke implied they weren't equals.
> Kabuto =/= Jiraiya. This subtle hint is rather wishful thinking.
> ...




*Itachi knew he was strong enough to defeat them without exerting himself.

* Sasuke is arrogant and boastful, and is always wrong about his power level , he also though he was stronger than Naruto on the rooftop and he was wrong there as well.

* Why have Itachi's mot important fight be against an SM user, why give Kabuto SM from a story telling perspective it doesn't even make sense, it was his way off saying SM give the MS trouble.

* Itachi does share similarities to Minato as well, but I don't believe Minato to be that much stronger than Orochimaru, or Jiriyia as well see my tier list .

* I always got the vibe that Itachi was stronger , but much in the same way that Hashirama was stronger than Madara, their connection was too strong to be far off in power,and what do you know Orochimaru is back and who knows how strong Kishi makes him now.

* I think Orochimaru being unable to use ninjutsu and having his powerful Edo Tensei taken away from him is a greater disparity than Itachi using one of his MS techs, considering he was able to use MS sparingly even on his deathbed,

To me Minato, Itachi, Nagato, Jiriyia, Orochimaru, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke , Danzo are all very close in power, only Tobi, Kabuto, Madara, Hashirama, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke are above them as they have extraordinary raw power that exceeds what even Itachi and Minato are incapable off.


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## ceralux (Jul 29, 2012)

Orochimaru and Jiraiya are rivals. It doesn't matter who's stronger due to the fact that the difference in their powers is so small.

The whole Itachi v Jiraiya debate should have ended years ago. It isn't even debatable anymore. Itachi is in another tier.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks for adding more fuel to the fire.

anyway

Itachi >>>>>>>>> Orochimaru >= Jiraiya


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 29, 2012)

Believe me. It is so much easier to just accept that Itachi is stronger than both Jiraiya and Orochimaru, than trying to come up with ass pull justifications to make them look on the same level.

It baffles me that so many people argue against manga so much. It is like trying to row your boat upstream. So much waste of time and effort. Go with the flow bro.
Itachi raped Orochimaru twice with no difficulty or whatsoever. Orochimaru admitted that Itachi was stronger than him. 
Even if you believe Jman bit is up to interpretation, EVEN AFTER 10 FUCKING YEARS, then at least concede on the Orochimaru bit.

and...




Rios said:


> Thanks for adding more fuel to the fire.
> 
> anyway
> 
> Itachi >>>>>>>>> Orochimaru >= Jiraiya



What he said.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> Woah, I didn't know you could read Kishimoto's mind. Can you tell me who the final villain is going to be?



Tobito. :33


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## Ghost (Jul 29, 2012)

Nagato > Itachi and Minato > The Sannin = The Masters

If Itachi and Minato were closer to each others age, they would probably be rivals.

Both end their fights quick as possible. Minato ends them with his ultimate ninjutsu and Itachi with his genjutsu.


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Omg don't add Minato to the thread we will all get banned!!!


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## atduncan (Jul 29, 2012)

Oro admitted to Sasuke that he had no chance against Itachi. Itachi didn't even have to raise a hand to beat him. He just looked at him.

Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oro

If oro tried to massacre the Uchiha, lol's would be heard round the world.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 29, 2012)

On every Japanese forum they are debating if Itachi > or ~ Nagato, meanwhile 10% of NF is stuck in a broken record that Jiraya could handle both Itachi & Kisame. Because Itachi said so 

At this point I'm not even sure what Kishimoto could do to make the difference in tiers more obvious. Besides flat-out stating it


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## Ghost (Jul 29, 2012)

Sasuke and Oro both knew that together they wouldn't be able to defeat Itachi. That's why Sauce absorbed Oro. He also prepared seals on his wrists because he knew that Itachi would rape him with shurikens.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> On every Japanese forum they are debating if Itachi > or ~ Nagato, meanwhile 10% of NF is stuck in a broken record that Jiraya could handle both Itachi & Kisame. Because Itachi said so
> 
> At this point I'm not even sure what Kishimoto could do to make the difference in tiers more obvious. Besides flat-out stating it



Itachi , Jiriyia, Orochimaru, Nagato are all around the same level


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## Ghost (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi , Jiriyia, Orochimaru, Nagato are all around the same level



lol no 

Itachi >> Jiraiya and Oro

Nagato >>> Jiraiya and Oro


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> lol no
> 
> Itachi >> Jiraiya and Oro
> 
> Nagato >>> Jiraiya and Oro




Itachi says he and Jiriyia are on the same level 

Nagato says Jiriyia would defeat him with knowledge yet you say 

Itachi/Nagato>>>>>>>Jiriyia


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## atduncan (Jul 29, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> lol no
> 
> Itachi >> Jiraiya and Oro
> 
> Nagato >>> Jiraiya and Oro



no.
Itachia and Nagato both >>>>>>>>>>> jiraiya and Oro

But 

Itachi >>>>>>>>> Nagato


Itachi knows eyes. He would have known the bodies were dead + being controlled, if not simply be able to see the manupulation with his eyes. So yeah.


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## Sniffers (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> *Itachi knew he was strong enough to defeat them without exerting himself.
> 
> * Sasuke is arrogant and boastful, and is always wrong about his power level , he also though he was stronger than Naruto on the rooftop and he was wrong there as well.
> 
> ...



?
Naruto thought he was going to solo the war. He got a reality check too. We can both play this game.
Why give Kabuto the Sound 4 abilities. Is it to say that they give MS trouble? Well, they do but what does that prove? This argument doesn't get you far.
Then we can agree on that. I still give Minato and Itachi the edge, but as recent chapters have showed even Kakashi and Gai can fight alongside KCM Naruto and B, so gaps aren't as big as they sometimes seem to be.
We'll have to see, however Orochimaru's connection to Jiraiya has already been increased again since he apparently had Sage chakra too.
That indeed was an incredible nerf for Orochimaru. To think he could tangle with KN4 like that is all the more impressive now.
To me Minato and Itachi represent the ideal of the main characters and as such stand a little taller than the rest. Plot will help them out if it must to win. Hashirama and Madara (and Nagato) represent raw power, but I still rank Minato and Itachi on their level as I do see them rivalling them by sheer intellect and genius.


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## BroKage (Jul 29, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> On every Japanese forum they are debating if Itachi > or ~ Nagato,


Except anyone who thinks Itachi is _above_ Nagato is a wanker.

Itachi is at the very best equal, and the manga implies he's lesser as he called other ninjas to help him break Chibaku Tensei. If he was greater than Nagato, he'd be able to counter the jutsu alone.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> To me Minato and Itachi represent the ideal of the main characters and as such stand a little taller than the rest. Plot will help them out if it must to win.



Is that why Itachi considers himself a massive failure?


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## atduncan (Jul 29, 2012)

Shice said:


> Except anyone who thinks Itachi is _above_ Nagato is a wanker.
> 
> Itachi is at the very best equal, and the manga implies he's lesser as he called other ninjas to help him break Chibaku Tensei. If he was greater than Nagato, he'd be able to counter the jutsu alone.



That is edo Nagato :/ I thought we ment old ass frail nagato


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## BroKage (Jul 29, 2012)

atduncan said:


> That is edo Nagato :/ I thought we ment old ass frail nagato


Fair enough. 



hmph said:


> Is that why Itachi considers himself a massive failure?


Modesty is part of perfection bro.


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## Sniffers (Jul 29, 2012)

hmph said:


> Is that why Itachi considers himself a massive failure?


It's why Sasuke considers Itachi to be perfect.

Itachi made his mistakes, but he has come to terms with them. Minato also considered himself a lousy father, but that's all beside the point. They're both still human... thankfully.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> ?
> Naruto thought he was going to solo the war. He got a reality check too. We can both play this game.
> Why give Kabuto the Sound 4 abilities. Is it to say that they give MS trouble? Well, they do but what does that prove? This argument doesn't get you far.
> Then we can agree on that. I still give Minato and Itachi the edge, but as recent chapters have showed even Kakashi and Gai can fight alongside KCM Naruto and B, so gaps aren't as big as they sometimes seem to be.
> ...



* Itachi is strong enough to defeat Kakashi and  crew without breaking a sweat, defeating Jiriyia would cost him his life

* Kabuto has a connection to the sound 4 and has access to their power in the lab so that makes sense, but Kabuto having SM just came out of nowhere.

* I think they have similar powers and look like Minato/ Itachi but  they have very similar ideals and personalities to Orochimaru/Jiriyia, Sasuke has Orochimaru arrogance and ambition,while Naruto has Jiriyia's goofiness and hardworking approach, Orochimaru is still playing a major part in the Sasuke/Itachi storyline, he might be the reason Sasuke masters his EMS or even gain a Rinnegan.

* As far as Hashirama/Madara I think Kishi is setting up VOTE to be the end all to be all of power in the ninja world, it's what the readers have been waiting for love vs hate, Senju vs Uchiha, so I think Kishi wants us to see Hashirama and Madara as standing a top the ninja world , with Sasuke and Naruto surpassing them in the end when they fight.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> I think this is the 3rd thread this week spamming the same nonsense, *Itachi is a couple of tiers above Sannin.*



Got any proof of this?

*Edo Itachi,* sure, but living, non-Edo and dying Itachi? Nope.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 29, 2012)

Its funny that both Minato & Itachi end their opponents in a few moves. They don't have "all-out battles"

The way Kishi writes them, by using their sheer genius it seems like they always have plot on their side

Remember Minato vs Tobi. The 1st time in the manga we see Yondaime in battle, and yet the battle vs Tobi lasted a mere chapter. In one move Minato basically outsmarted a "superior S/T move". Rasengan'd him and took Kyuubi from him

Same with Itachi. Versus Oro 2x was a short battle, vs Deidara was done in couple o panels, vs Nagato lasted a mere chapter
And even vs Kabuto was actually fucking short. in the first move Itachi made vs Kabuto Izanami was basically being prepped already. Get rid of the Itachi-Sasuke flashbacks, get rid of Kabuto flashbacks, and you have a mere 2 chapters of battle

The only battle that did last long was Itachi vs Sasuke. Because he needed Sasuke drained, and he needed it to be believable that Sasuke "defeated" him

The way Kishi writes Minato & Itachi its obvious they are the MC final benchmarks (which they currently have surpassed)


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Jiraiya and Orochimaru are nearly equals.

They were like Naruto and Sasuke. Fought, Oro won, but Jiraiya might not have had killing intent, so that means they were likely equal.

Since then, they both got new forms, and Orochimaru got Edo Tensei. With Edo Hashirama, Oro should be unstoppable, and even Frog song won't kill neither Oro, nor Hashirama...so I think if Oro uses ET againts Jiraiya, Jiraiya is fucked.

Pain also commented how both Sannin had special forms, which kinda suggests that Oro's Hydra form is close to Jiraiya's Sage Mode in power, but when you think about it, Jiraiya has no technique that can actually defeat it. Frog song wont kill him, Oodama Rasengan won't, he can easily just Oral rebirth out of Yomi Numa. On the contrary however, Oro can kill Jiraiya with either poison, or a simple mistake Jiraiya makes that leads to him being stabbed by Kusanagi.

In the Sannin duel, Oro could have bite off Base Jiraiya's head off if he wanted as well.

So Itachi>Oro>Jiraiya

Maybe with ET Oro can beat Itachi, but Jiraiya can't even beat Oro without it, and Itachi can do it super easy, so no, *Jiraiya can't beat Itachi.*


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## Sniffers (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> * Itachi is strong enough to defeat Kakashi can crew without breaking a sweat, defeating Jiriyia would cost him his life
> 
> * Kabuto has a connection to the sound 4 and has access to their power in the lab so that makes sense, but Kabuto having SM just came out of nowhere.
> 
> ...



Itachi indeed will have a tough time killing Jiraiya after having just defeated Kakashi. What a feat it would've been if he defeated two of Konoha's legends on the same day.. even if it killed himself too.
It all came out of nowhere. Besides, Kabuto represented a perfect Orochimaru more than Jiraiya's power anyway, since apparently Orochimaru also was an imperfect Sage.
Yes, that is my point exactly. Jiraiya and Orochimaru shaped them, but in the end Minato and Itachi are the people they truly look up to and strive to succeed.
Agreed, Hashirama and Madara will be the representation of true Senju and Uchiha power.. until Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2012)

Ooooh Minato and Nagato got included. This finally became interesting(although still beating the dead horse but who cares).


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

*Nagato >= Itachi = Minato > Orochimaru >= Jiraiya = Kakashi = Gai > Tsunade*


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2012)

Nagato being Minato's equal doesnt fit anywhere. In fact him being stronger than Itachi and Minato would make much more sense.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

Rios said:


> Nagato being Minato's equal doesnt fit anywhere. In fact him being stronger than Itachi and Minato would make much more sense.



He would have been stronger than them if he could move, being a stationary fighter against these two genius just spells trouble for him.


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## Danzio (Jul 29, 2012)

Well I agree, they are roughly equals.The manga made that much clear but stuff like match ups should always be considered. For some reason Orochimaro can always defeat Jiraiya, and Itachi can defeat Orochimaro due to his arrogance ( aka plot induced stupidity ).


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

I wonder how many of you remember that Minato was said to be weaker than SM Naruto.



> Itachi can defeat Orochimaro due to his arrogance



With the lines 'all your jutsu are useless before the sharingan' and 'I'm perfect to stop the Edo Tensei', its generally said that the sharingan is a natural counter to Oro. Which makes sense in a way, since his big thing is his regeneration that doesn't help against genjutsu.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

Danzio said:


> Well I agree, they are roughly equals.The manga made that much clear but stuff like match ups should always be considered. For some reason Orochimaro can always defeat Jiraiya, and Itachi can defeat Orochimaro due to his arrogance ( aka plot induced stupidity ).



Thats not plot induced stupidity, arrogance is part of his character.


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## Danzio (Jul 29, 2012)

hmph said:


> With the lines 'all your jutsu are useless before the sharingan' and 'I'm perfect to stop the Edo Tensei', its generally said that the sharingan is a natural counter to Oro. Which makes sense in a way, since his big thing is his regeneration that doesn't help against genjutsu.



What are you talking about. Itachi was boasting and did the same thing against Kabuto before he was cut in  in half . Edo tensei is more than capable of defeating anyone including Itachi.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Thats not plot induced stupidity, arrogance is part of his character.



It is when he's been portrayed as a once-in-a-few-decade-genious, and he fought Itachi twice and didn't change his demeanor  once. This is the guy who didn't trust Kabuto and  was ready to kill him at any moment if he did something shady, he  also decoded the tablet itself.This is simply beyond natural arrogance.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> What are you talking about. Itachi was boasting and did the same thing against Kabuto before he was cut in in half . Edo tensei is more than capable of defeating anyone including Itachi.



In the case of Edo Tensei, yeah it can defeat Itachi. But for stopping it (defeating its user) one wants genjutsu power.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Got any proof of this?
> 
> *Edo Itachi,* sure, but living, non-Edo and dying Itachi? Nope.



Edo Itachi wasn't much stronger than regular Itachi, only difference is he could regenerate, Itachi has always been able to use the MS sparringly


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Edo Itachi wasn't much stronger than regular Itachi, only difference is he could regenerate, Itachi has always been able to use the MS sparringly



You forget the part where Edo Itachi has unlimited chakra and invincible body making him unkillable. Thats a big difference between a living shinobi and a Zombie Shinobi.


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## Last shinobi (Jul 29, 2012)

itachi would lose to jiraya and oro because of his illness and ms drawbacks
the "king" is only strong in edo mode


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *Nagato >= Itachi = Minato > Orochimaru >= Jiraiya = Kakashi = Gai > Tsunade*




Nagato isn't stronger than Itachi or Minato if anything they've depicted on a similar level with Nagato being slightly weaker, Kakashi and Gai aren't equal to Jiriyia they've shown nothing to contend with SM, and while they might be stronger than Tsunade in combat, her support abilites put her ahead of them as well.

@ Danzio, I don't think it was stupidity , it's just that Orochimaru was trying to take over Itachi's body so he couldn't fight with killer intent, so he was trying to do the same thing over and over again, and he's probably going to try to take Sasuke body again, it's his goal.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> He would have been stronger than them if he could move, being a stationary fighter against these two genius just spells trouble for him.



You are saying Minato can defeat Pain then?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

Last shinobi said:


> itachi would lose to jiraya and oro because of his illness and ms drawbacks
> the "king" is only strong in edo mode



Itachi beat Orochimaru twice, once in that condition while blind. 



Eliyua23 said:


> Nagato isn't stronger than Itachi or Minato if anything they've depicted on a similar level with Nagato being slightly weaker, Kakashi and Gai aren't equal to Jiriyia they've shown nothing to contend with SM, and while they might be stronger than Tsunade in combat, her support abilites put her ahead of them as well.



Nagato is either stronger or equal to Itachi and Minato. His overwhelming Rinnegan power alone makes a top tier shinobi. 

The Sannin has shown nothing that can contend with Kamui.



Rios said:


> You are saying Minato can defeat Pain then?



I didn't take Pain into account, with it Nagato will win but if he fought on his own he will lose against a powerful genius.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Pretty much the only people who believe Itachi is above Jiraiya are Itachi tards who ignore what the manga directly told us. There is no point in bringing it up to people who don't care about what the manga actually says.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi beat Orochimaru twice, once in that condition while blind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure Nagato has more raw power but his lack of mobility and relying on proxy hinders him slightly .

Kamui hasn't done anything besides warp nails and Kunai


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Pretty much the only people who believe Itachi is above Jiraiya are Itachi tards who ignore what the manga directly told us. There is no point in bringing it up to people who don't care about what the manga actually says.



Pretty much the only people who believe Jiraya is above Itachi are Jiraiya tards who ignore what the manga directly showed us. There is no point in bringing it up to people who don't care about what the manga actually shows.


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi wasn't lying when he made his statement about his strength in comparison to Jiriaya's. If he was lying he would have come up with a better lie than telling Kisame he could fight equally with Jiriaya, which would leave Kisame open to grabbing Naruto. Also if the author wanted readers to know that was a lie he would have told us by now, instead he reinforces the idea that someone with similar powers to Jiriaya, would be a tough match for Itachi. This support includes:

1. Nagato admitting that Jiraiya would beat him with intel. Nagato is > Itachi, yet Jiraiya can defeat him with intel. Jiraiya should have a large amount of intel on Itachi before his death, so it's not hard to imagine if he can beat Nagato with intel that Itachi would have his work cut out for him.

2. SM Naruto being presented as equal to MS Sasuke, showing the author clearly considers MS = SM in terms of power ups.

3. Itachi shitting his pants when Kabuto mentioned SM and Ryuuchidou.

4. Itachi having a very difficult fight against a SM user Kabuto. And yeah Kabuto > Jiraiya, but Edo Itachi > Part I or Part II Itachi, plus Itachi had Sasuke's help.

Orochimaru is kind of hard to place right now because the whole Orochimaru lacking his own arms and therefore was weaker seems like a huge retecon to me, since after Orochimaru got a new body at the end of Part I this was never brought as a reason for him being weakened again. Body rejection was the stated weakness, not loss of arms. To me it seems like Kishimoto just threw the arms thing out there to make Orochimaru seem even further weakened. 

The only reason why I can see Kishimoto creating this retecon is so Orochimaru if he gets his own arms back can end up being stronger than Itachi (with scroll power or whatever), versus how he was portrayed before as weaker than Itachi (and not using the scroll or whatever). Why would Kishi do this? Well Kishimoto was probably sitting at his desk thinking about the manga and he realized that he needed an enemy whose the equivalent of Rinnegan Tobi for Sasuke to face. However he had no shinobi on the side of the heroes he could have Sasuke face and he already had Sasuke say he'd fight Naruto first out of the heroes. Thus he just had Orochimaru come back out of nowhere to be Sasuke's main fight before Naruto. 

So who knows how strong Kishimoto's going to make Orochimaru at full power now.

Edit the way I'm seeing it is:

Pain Rikudo = Danzo > SM Naruto (completed SM) = MS Sasuke (no illness) ≥ Itachi (illness) = Jiraiya (incomplete SM).

SM Naruto beats Pain with Deva Recharging and some outside help. MS Sasuke beats Danzo with Shisui's eye recharging and some outside help.

Than the next main heroes/benchmarks come:

Best guess they are Minato and Edo Itachi, in this arc

Edo Itachi (unlimited stamina and immortal body) = Minato > Pain Rikudo = Danzo  

Than the next power ups are Kurama for Naruto and EMS for Sasuke. 

Naruto by the end of this arc will probably defeat Tobi with help and end up being ≥ Minato.

Sasuke by the end of this or next arc will probably defeat Orochimaru? with help; Suigetsu, Juugo, Karin?, and Kabuto?, and end up ≥ Edo Itachi. 

Would be my best guess.


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Itachi wasn't lying when he made his statement about his strength in comparison to Jiriaya's. If he was lying he would have come up with a better lie than telling Kisame he could fight equally with Jiriaya, which would leave Kisame open to grabbing Naruto. Also if the author wanted readers to know that was a lie he would have told us by now, instead he reinforces the idea that someone with similar powers to Jiriaya, would be a tough match for Itachi. This support includes:
> 
> 1. Nagato admitting that Jiraiya would beat him with intel. Nagato is > Itachi, yet Jiraiya can defeat him with intel. Jiraiya should have a large amount of intel on Itachi before his death, so it's not hard to imagine if he can beat Nagato with intel that Itachi would have his work cut out for him.
> 
> ...



It had to be Turrin


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

I always skip through Turrin's post.  



Eliyua23 said:


> Sure Nagato has more raw power but his lack of mobility and relying on proxy hinders him slightly .
> 
> Kamui hasn't done anything besides warp nails and Kunai



Seriously, who gives you rep?


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## Black☆Star (Jul 29, 2012)

Anyone who can tank/absorb Rasengan can beat Minato. Nagato is one of those


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

The manga told us that:

*13 year old BASE Itachi owned Orochimaru like a piece of shit*


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

The Minato wank just reached epic proportions.


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

It's only a clusterfuck because Itachi fans make it a clusterfuck. It's actually really quite simple. Itachi and Jiraiya are on around equal footing based on Itachi's own admittance and we only briefly saw Orochimaru at full strength. The only evidence we have for any of this is Orochimaru's confrontation with Itachi while they both were in Akatsuki, but we really don't know any of the details of it other than that Orochimaru tried to out genjutsu one of the top 3 genjutsu users in the manga and that he lost an arm.

It's really not fair to compare anyone to Itachi though because he's a sue who has the author's favor so it's hard to imagine any character short of Minato who can encounter him yet leave with their dignities intact. For fuck's sake, he out sue'd Sasuke.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

I heard the Japanese fans visit Naruto Forums for the Lols. 

I can't believe this quote is brought up dozens of times after we see Itachi's feat and find out his true allegiance.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I always skip through Turrin's post.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, who gives you rep?




The same people that say Kakashi and Gai= Jiriyia


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## Summers (Jul 29, 2012)

It never ends. These guys are both dead now ya know.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Itachi wasn't lying when he made his statement about his strength in comparison to Jiriaya's. If he was lying he would have come up with a better lie than telling Kisame he could fight equally with Jiriaya, which would leave Kisame open to grabbing Naruto. Also if the author wanted readers to know that was a lie he would have told us by now, instead he reinforces the idea that someone with similar powers to Jiriaya, would be a tough match for Itachi. This support includes:
> 
> 1. Nagato admitting that Jiraiya would beat him with intel. Nagato is > Itachi, yet Jiraiya can defeat him with intel. Jiraiya should have a large amount of intel on Itachi before his death, so it's not hard to imagine if he can beat Nagato with intel that Itachi would have his work cut out for him.
> 
> ...



With Orochimaru it makes sense because from the very beginning he was trying to get a Uchiha Body, so I never thought Itachi was outright stronger if he was fighting with the intent to kill, then we see just how hax Edo Tensei is an there's no way Itachi can defeat an Orochimaru with Edo-Tensei prepped and we find out now that Orochimaru had Edo Madara back then as well, 

So he could have wiped Itachi or anyone out anytime he wanted , but because he sacrificed everything for his ambitions he never failed to live up to is hype he took a gamble and he lost, he's very similar to Tobi in that we see him getting his ass kicked but his power comes in the fact that he is impossible to kill.

I think his power fluctuates, when he's fully prepped with Edo Tensei he's Strnger than Itachi, Orochimaru with no prep is only slightly weaker than Itachi, armless Orochimaru is probably far weaker than Itachi.

Minato, Itachi, Jiriyia, Orochimaru, Nagato, Danzo, Pre Rinnegan Tobi, Killer B are all around the same level or close in power in my opinion , I do think this chapter is about Naruto/Sasuke surpassing Minato/Itachi but the problem with that is , we underestimate how strong SM Naruto without the 5 minute limit and Sasuke with a fully mastered MS are , they were probably close in power to Minato and Itachi even back then.

BM and Fully Mastered EMS will take Naruto/Sasuke to a new level beyond any shinobi except Hashirama and Madara who could accomplish extraordinary things.

I also don't see the huge difference between Edo and regular Itachi besides just being able to regenerate which isn't a part of his power , Reglar Itachi could do anything Edo Itachi could except regenerate , Kishi probably threw that Susanoo drawbacks out the window as well.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.



How is it that such an obviously wrong interpretation is perpetuated? Jiraiya *is not a Konoha ninja*. He doesn't live in the village and has no allegiance (at the time) beyond that he doesn't hate his former village. He even refused to help with Oro invasion in his first appearance.

If Itachi was truly concerned about Konoha's protectors he would have left Kakashi - the villages actual most powerful ninja at the time - alone.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Seriously, who gives you rep?



Me. I got some for you as well.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 29, 2012)

He'd risk everything to protect shinobi of the Leaf.



He went to Konoha _purely_ to show he was still alive.



Itachi lied very frequently in life.



"Sounds legit to me, bro." - Turrin



Kisame tells Itachi not to use the Mangekyō



Kisame still thinks Itachi would win.



"His distance is the only thing stopping him..."



Itachi is a liar. His hype is invalid. Orochimaru's "impossible to defeat" hype for Itachi or disrespect and defeat of Jiriaya with mutual handicaps, however, is not invalid. Itachi was always held in higher esteem in the author's mind.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

> Jiraiya is not a Konoha ninja.



LOLOLOLOLOL 

Even assuming you're right, why would he kill Naruto's protector? He doesn't want Akatsuki to succeed.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Pretty much the only people who believe Jiraya is above Itachi are Jiraiya tards who ignore what the manga directly showed us.



Agreed. 

It directly showed us they were pretty much even. Not that Jiraiya was above Itachi.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> LOLOLOLOLOL
> 
> Even assuming you're right, why would he kill Naruto's protector? He doesn't want Akatsuki to succeed.



He wasn't Naruto's official protector at the time, not until the timeskip.

Itachi devised a plan to snatch Naruto and he already has an excuse ready to go, the bijuu sealing order. "Lying" about Jiraiya served no purpose, (did not prevent an attempt on Naruto, did not use it to leave Naruto) therefore he wasn't lying.


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## Mio (Jul 29, 2012)

This again...

Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya.


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> LOLOLOLOLOL
> 
> Even assuming you're right, why would he kill Naruto's protector? He doesn't want Akatsuki to succeed.



Why would he offer no objection when Kisame wanted to chop off Naruto's legs? Why would he order Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai? Why would he go out of his way to keep Jiraiya away from Naruto?


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It directly showed us they were pretty much even. Not that Jiraiya was above Itachi.



Nope, it showed us that a 13 years old Itachi was able to onepanel sannins without moving a finger.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Vice said:


> Why would he offer no objection when Kisame wanted to chop off Naruto's legs? Why would he order Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai? Why would he go out of his way to keep Jiraiya away from Naruto?



Are you pointing out the obvious flaws in the Itachi fandom logic?

Good job.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Nope, it showed us that a 13 years old Itachi was able to onepanel sannins without moving a finger.




What about the 21 yr old Itachi that needed his strongest technique to defeat a Sannin


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Nope, it showed us that a 13 years old Itachi was able to onepanel sannins without moving a finger.



So many things wrong with this I will give you a small list so you sound less ignorant in the future.

1. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are 2 different people. Like most Itachi tards you seem to blind yourself to certain parts of the manga. How you could mistake them for the same person is beyond me. They look nothing alike and their names are nothing alike.

2. Itachi never one paneled Oro without moving a finger. He caught him in a genjutsu which Oro seemed on the verge of breaking and then cut Oro's hand off by moving a finger and more. Cutting Oro's hand off isn't even close to beating him so.....


Oh, and an older Itachi ran from Jiraiya and admitted Jiraiya could kill him


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> What about the 21 yr old Itachi that needed his strongest technique to defeat a Sannin



Thats a retarded conclusion. Susanoo was already out, so how can you speculate he needed? Speculation?

Or you wanted him to desummon it for the lulz when it was already out and convenient to use?

Good lord lol.

Orochimaru was using his strongest form as well, so this is a very very null post you made. Good day.



Cyphon said:


> So many things wrong with this I will give you a small list so you sound less ignorant in the future.
> 
> 1. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are 2 different people. Like most Itachi tards you seem to blind yourself to certain parts of the manga. How you could mistake them for the same person is beyond me. They look nothing alike and their names are nothing alike.


1. They aren't the same person, but Orochimaru has a 5 on Genjutsu, and Jiraiya a 3. So if anything, Orochimaru would find it easier to dispel a Genjutsu.

2. Jiraiya looked at Itachi's eyes even more closely than Orochimaru did. Wanting a Sharingan so much, Oro would know more of it than Jiraiya.

3. Jiraiya admitted he sucked at Genjutsu. Sure, he knew the basic methods to break Genjutsu, which even Naruto did, but that didn't account for breaking it, as Naruto couldn't, and it take time for Orochimaru to do so, time, in which Itachi can capitalyze, and cut Jiraiya's head off.



> 2. Itachi never one paneled Oro without moving a finger. He caught him in a genjutsu which Oro seemed on the verge of breaking and then cut Oro's hand off by moving a finger and more. Cutting Oro's hand off isn't even close to beating him so.....


Yet from that encounter Orochimaru, a very smart person, concluded Itachi was the stronger of the two.

Itachi agreed saying that none of his jutsu would work againts him.

Sasuke also agreed saying that he and Orochimaru together couldn't beat Itachi unless they fused, and then they might have a chance.

And Itachi later defeated Orochimaru again effortlessly.

Edo Tensei is null to comparing Itachi and Jiraiya since Jiraiya would get stomped by Oro's Edo Tensei, if even in his Hydra form he can beat Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 29, 2012)

One can't really say Itachi _needed_ the Totsuka to defeat Orochimaru because he used it to do so, especially given the horrendous condition Itachi was already in. 

The more pertinent conclusion would be that Itachi treated Orochimaru like a gnat again, and that despite Itachi being blind and barely able to walk, he paneled Orochimaru. 

And remembering way back when: Orochimary stated that a gap still existed between him and Jiriaya, even with mutual handicaps. He could even make Senjutsu chakra without summoned help.

The _only_ thing that makes this debate deabatable is the hype received from Itachi, a stated liar, and Pain, who was referring to his real body trapped in machinery and riddled with black spikes.

And since this is the Library, you really have to consider what Vice said too. Kishimoto _adores_ Itachi or "E-touch." Like, just read the synopsis for his movie. He treats Itachi ten times as good as Minato.​


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

With a completely broken technique that only Suechicha Itachi gets to have.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Thats a retarded conclusion. Susanoo was already out, so how can you speculate he needed? Speculation?
> 
> Or you wanted him to desummon it for the lulz when it was already out and convenient to use?
> 
> ...



That was his intentions all along , to draw Orochimaru out then seal him with the totsuka sword , how else would he rid Sasuke off his Hebi powers


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

You're right guys, Itachi is a cold, blood-thirsty murderer who wanted to kill Asuna, Kurenai and Naruto, but didn't try to kill Jiraiya because he was too weak, even though he wanted to.

Fucking fail.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> One can't really say Itachi _needed_ the Totsuka to defeat Orochimaru​




Actually we can. We already know through Oro's other encounters and the Sasuke vs Itachi fight that nothing short of that can even end Oro. That isn't to say he couldn't beat up Oro with other moves but to actually finish the fight nothing short of that would really do it. 



> And remembering way back when: Orochimary stated that a gap still existed between him and Jiriaya, even with mutual handicaps.



Also remembering way back when Itachi said a fight between himself and Jiraiya would end in serious injury or death. 

And remembering the other part to your post where Jiraiya said Oro doesn't know how to truly judge a shinobi's talent. 

So yeah, your point accomplishes nothing :/​


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

You're right guys. Itachi is a saint who was only trying to protect Konoha when he tried to kill its only jinchuuriki, tortured and manipulated his brother and by putting one of its strongest jounin in the hospital as a full-fledged member of a terrorist organization.

Fucking fail.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Nope, it showed us that a 13 years old Itachi was able to onepanel sannins without moving a finger.



Really? I thought it showed us that a 13 year old Itachi, the great and wonderful protector of Konoha, failed to defeat Orochimaru, the guy on the shortlist of "utterly destroy Konoha" group, by failing to put him down so he would no longer threaten his beloved village.

But hey, he cut his hand off.



Strategoob said:


> And remembering way back when: Orochimary stated that a gap still existed between him and Jiriaya, even with mutual handicaps..



Mutual doesn't mean equal.

Take a man who hasn't had the use of his arms most of his life. Put him in the ring. Then take another man who has always had normal use of his arms and incapacitate both his arms.

Now make them fight. Who dod you think is going to win, the person acclimated to his condition or the guy who just got his condition and had no time to adjust.

It's a rhetorical question BTW.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Vice said:


> You're right guys. Itachi is a saint who was only trying to protect Konoha when he tried to kill its only jinchuuriki, tortured and manipulated his brother and by putting one of its strongest jounin in the hospital as a full-fledged member of a terrorist organization.
> 
> Fucking fail.



1. He didn't try to kill Naruto.
2. Only to make him a hero, but he failed. Itachi admitted that he failed.
3. He used Tsukuyomi to end the battle quickly. Kakashi isn't a pushover.
4. He was a member of Akatsuki to watch Tobi.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Needing Totsuka to finish Orochimaru is nothing to be ashamed of. Jiraiya on the otherhand gets done in by Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> 1. He didn't try to kill Naruto.



Because his plan to separate him from Jiraiya failed.



> 2. Only to make him a hero, but he failed. Itachi admitted that he failed.



And almost turned him into a psycho. Barely acknowledging that he fucked up.



> 3. He used Tsukuyomi to end the battle quickly. Kakashi isn't a pushover.



Completely necessary to stab him for 72 hours straight to accomplish this.



> 4. He was a member of Akatsuki to watch Tobi.



And kill innocent jinchuuriki. And recruit new members. And do absolutely nothing to stop them or slow them down in any way whatsoever.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Needing Totsuka to finish Orochimaru is nothing to be ashamed of. Jiraiya on the otherhand gets done in by Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.



Itachi gets done in by Yomi Numa.

So whats your point?


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## Ghost (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Needing Totsuka to finish Orochimaru while being half dead* is nothing to be ashamed of. Jiraiya on the otherhand gets done in by Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.



fixed*


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Itachi gets done in by Yomi Numa.
> 
> So whats your point?



Itachi jumps.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi jumps.



And then lands in it anyway because Jiraiya covers the battlefield with it. 

Of course he couldn't jump unless he had a way to know it was coming which he likely wouldn't.


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> fixed*



Itachi being "half dead" makes Susanoo and Totsuka no less broken.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi jumps.



Into Frog Song.


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## Ghost (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> And then lands in it anyway because Jiraiya covers the battlefield with it.
> 
> Of course he couldn't jump unless he had a way to know it was coming which he likely wouldn't.



Sees chakra forming from Jiraiya's hands into ground?


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## LostInLogicError (Jul 29, 2012)

Funny how Susanoo's (one of Itachi's strongest assets) attacks had absolutely no effect on Orochimaru, he needed a hax weapon from hell to ultimately rid the world of bastards's presence. And yet he ultimately failed.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> Sees chakra forming from Jiraiya's hands into ground?



Chakra doesn't come from Jiraiya's hands. He doesn't touch the ground to use the jutsu.


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## Kanki (Jul 29, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> One can't really say Itachi _needed_ the Totsuka to defeat Orochimaru because he used it to do so, especially given the horrendous condition Itachi was already in.
> 
> The more pertinent conclusion would be that Itachi treated Orochimaru like a gnat again, and that despite Itachi being blind and barely able to walk, he paneled Orochimaru. ​




Come on Strat...you're smart enough to see how that was clearly a case of plot no jutsu. Itachi may have been in terrible condition, but he had his strongest jutsu prepared whilst Orochimaru without any knowledge of the SOT (at least) casually and arrogantly strolled within range.

I could give you an example of it working the other way. Jiraiya could have had a difficult fight with Kisame. Jiraiya has numerous injuries and his eyes have been severely injured for whatever reason. Ma and Pa hadn't yet used Frog Song, but they do have it prepared. At that moment Kakuzu turns up standing 30 meters away, laughing and mocking Jiraiya. Ma/Pa then use FS immediately. Result = Kakuzu get's defeated in a single panel.

Would that reflect the true difference between Jiraiya and Kakuzu? No. Technically Jiraiya would have won with ease though.



> And remembering way back when: Orochimary stated that a gap still existed between him and Jiriaya, even with mutual handicaps. He could even make Senjutsu chakra without summoned help.



Jiraiya/Oro never had a fight to death. Usually in stories like this the arrogant but talented one leads for most of the fight until the so called 'good guy' through determination and all that stuff ends up showing powers the arrogant one never even knew he had and has a 'comeback' of sorts.

I'm not getting into a Jiraiya vs Oro vs Itachi debate because it's all been said before, but I just thought I'd make a few comments.

For the record I see Orochimaru = Jiraiya. By feats Jiraiya > Orochimaru, but I think come the end of the manga we'll see a situation where it's Orochimaru > Jiraiya (feats wise), however the latters WOF will make up for the difference in ability. I think that's how the author has portrayed their relationship and I put Tsunade in that as well. Character representation is more important than feats, unless we're in the BD.​


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

Jiraiya gets amaterasu'd before he can do Frog Song.


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> Jiraiya gets amaterasu'd before he can do Frog Song.



Shrugs it off since Amaterasu can't even accomplish killing fodder.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> Sees chakra forming from Jiraiya's hands into ground?



Just like he did here?

Tobi wants neither Peace nor War.

Obviously "jumping" isn't necessarily a counter to the vast array of jutsus that start off with placing your hand to the ground.



Falkirion said:


> Jiraiya gets amaterasu'd before he can do Frog Song.



Takes his clothes off.


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Takes his clothes off.



He is shot in the head. He dies.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> He is shot in the head. He dies.



Forehead protector.

Hair.

Case closed.


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## Danzio (Jul 29, 2012)

I wonder if this can be used offensively:



Sounds like a one-shot technique to me.


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Forehead protector.
> 
> Hair.
> 
> Case closed.



k brah whatever you say


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

The way some of these fans are acting it's as if Jiraiya was the one who ran from Itachi or something.


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## HumanWine (Jul 29, 2012)

lol a sickly Itachi and a powered up Jiraiya evens out. You're all but admitting Itachi > Jiraiya


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## Vice (Jul 29, 2012)

Sickly Itachi didn't exist until the Sasuke fight. Healthy Itachi did everything he could to avoid fighting Jiraiya.


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## Last shinobi (Jul 29, 2012)

oro with hashi and tobirama kills itachi without trouble


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

Vice said:


> Sickly Itachi didn't exist until the Sasuke fight. Healthy Itachi did everything he could to avoid fighting Jiraiya.



Here we go again, same old story same shit...


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> Here we go again, same old story same shit...



Lets try a different route!

Do you believe Fukusaku's statement that SM Naruto > Sm Jiraiya?


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> k brah whatever you say




Tobi wants neither Peace nor War.


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## HumanWine (Jul 29, 2012)

Vice said:


> The way some of these fans are acting it's as if Jiraiya was the one who ran from Itachi or something.





Vice said:


> Sickly Itachi didn't exist until the Sasuke fight. Healthy Itachi did everything he could to avoid fighting Jiraiya.


What dont you guys understand? Why would he fight/kill one of its Legends?

As for sickly Itachi, I was pointing out to the TS how flawed his logic was.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

HumanWine said:


> What dont you guys understand? Why would he fight/kill one of its Legends?



No problem fighting Asuma/Kurenai/Kakashi


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## Twisted Darkness (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi > SM Jiraiya > Oro


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Tobi wants neither Peace nor War.



Fire vs Steel? Who wins?

If Kankuro and co. didn't arrive steel would have melt eventually and Samurai would've died.

Jiraiya doesn't even have armor, (except for forehead protector, but that isn't big enough to block amaterasu to da face) so that is pretty pointless.



hmph said:


> Lets try a different route!
> Do you believe Fukusaku's statement that SM Naruto > Sm Jiraiya?



No.


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## Ptolemy (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't think the difference between Itachi, Jiraiya & Orochimaru is as significant as people make out. Itachi may be stronger than the other two, but I wouldn't consider it to be by leaps and bounds. 

Itachi lacks techniques that can kill Orochimaru. Basic genjutsu is little more than a momentary distraction, his katons will do little more than stall him & Orochimaru will laugh any form of weaponry attack/dismemberment. Amaterasu is countered by his body vomit technique, and Izanami doesn't seem appropriate. Really his only options are Tsukuyomi (which may be ineffective due to knowledge and Orochimaru's personality) and his Susano sealing sword, which is his strongest attack - I don't really consider resorting to your strongest attack as making you massively stronger than someone else. Also if Itachi is so much stronger than Orochimaru, don't you wonder why he didn't kill him outright in their first battle? 


Jiraiya can counter Itachi pretty well - katons are matched by katons, genjutsu & amareterasu are countered by shadow clones as well as clever hit and run tactics (and Ma/Pa), tsukuyomi matched by a sensing barrier, susano by yomi numa and frog song. I'm not saying he would win, but there's room for argument.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> Jiraiya doesn't even have armor,



Didn't I mention hair? If you read this manga for anything other than Itachi you would be aware that Jiraiya can use his hair in a defensive manner.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> No.



What a shame. Well, do you think Itachi could beat Edo Harishima?


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## HumanWine (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> No problem fighting Asuma/Kurenai/Kakashi



relatively nobodies compared to Jiraiya. The 3rd had just died. Other than Danzo, who Itachi hated, who else would be in line for Hokage? Why would Itachi kill off his family to strengthen Konoha only to kill off potential Hokages years later?


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## Rain (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Didn't I mention hair? If you read this manga for anything other than Itachi you would be aware that Jiraiya can use his hair in a defensive manner.



Jiraiya's hair is a non factor in this fight because he won't have enough time to cover his face/body. Amaterasu is almost an instant jutsu.




hmph said:


> What a shame. Well, do you think Itachi could beat Edo Harishima?



If we see more of Hashirama i'll tell you


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## Riley F. (Jul 29, 2012)

They are all very much on the same level. Only the fanboys will act like Itachi is light years ahead of the Sannin, although the way the manga portrayed his relationship with Orochimaru (one shotted him twice), I can't say I fully blame them. This begs the question, do Itachi fans believe he could overcome Orochimaru, Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

I think the most important misunderstanding here is concentrated around what Itachi said regarding a confrontation with Jiraiya.

I'm going to emphasize this, so read it carefully and make sure you've got it down:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi *did not* say that he and Jiraiya were equals.




What Itachi said was that he (and possibly Kisame) would manage a draw with Jiraiya. I know it may be tempting to conflate this with a direct power comparison, but that's not what it is.

The outcome of a battle isn't always determined by strength; look at the way Jiraiya turned around his fight with Pain's first three bodies just by luring them into a bad position. Jiraiya is someone with a gift for guerilla-style fighting, since he's got incredible stamina and access to at least two nonvisual detection methods (his own movement-detecting barrier and the chakra sensing powers of the Ni Dai Sennin). He's also got Jutsu ideal for concealment and ambush.

While I could try to argue that Itachi should have known all of this about a guy with a reputation like Jiraiya's, that's not my main point here. Ultimately, Itachi's statement does not boil down to "Me and Jiraiya are equal fighters." Equal fighters can still win or lose over eachother, even if they do something as simple as have a rematch. Itachi said the only thing he (and possibly Kisame) could do was draw, period, which suggests that he was probably thinking of something more specific than a general strength comparison. In any case, Itachi only commented on an outcome; he didn't say anything about how Jiraiya's actual power stacks up to his.

I believe this should actually be construed as praise for Jiraiya, since it would mean that he is a serious threat to people out of his "weight class" so to speak.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

MrBuu said:


> This begs the question, do Itachi fans believe he could overcome Orochimaru, Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama?



Yes.

Old Hiruzen did, and he's weaker than Orochimaru.

It's because Orochimaru is an arrogant bastard who doesn't know how to use Edo Tensei to anywhere near their full combat potential. Just like Kabuto.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> I believe this should actually be construed as praise for Jiraiya, since it would mean that he is a serious threat to people out of his "weight class" so to speak.



That is true assuming they were out of his weight class. But they aren't.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> That is true assuming they were out of his weight class. But they aren't.



Maybe not Kisame, but Itachi clearly was.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Maybe not Kisame, but Itachi clearly was.



No he wasn't. I am still curious where Itachi fans ever got that impression


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 29, 2012)

Honestly, I don't care what anyone says. These are questions that will never be answered. Kishi probably couldn't answer them himself, and he won't ever have to. So fanbases...deal with it.

I will say that I believe Itachi would defeat Orochimaru nine times outta ten, but not neither as easily as he did in their two confrontations, nor how easily Itachi-tards want to believe he can. And that is because Itachi is a bad match for Oro. Just as Gai is a bad match for Kisame.


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## Riley F. (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes.
> 
> Old Hiruzen did, and he's weaker than Orochimaru.
> 
> It's because Orochimaru is an arrogant bastard who doesn't know how to use Edo Tensei to anywhere near their full combat potential. Just like Kabuto.



Possibly, but I also think part 2 power scaling played a major role in influencing how people actually perceive that fight.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> No he wasn't. I am still curious where Itachi fans ever got that impression



You can feign ignorance, but I know that you know the reason why.

It's because Itachi was shown twice to effortlessly dominate Orochimaru, someone Jiraiya always struggled with and considered his rival.

On top of that, you have Edo Itachi defeating a Hachibi-powered Edo Nagato (with some assistance for a Jutsu Jiraiya never had to deal with) whereas Jiraiya was defeated by a restricted Pain.

Kishimoto also pretty much destroyed the myth that Jiraiya is faster than Itachi in Sennin Moodo and can dodge all of his attacks, since we know now that Itachi has no problem keeping up with Sennin Moodo or KCM on foot.



MrBuu said:


> Possibly, but I also think part 2 power scaling played a major role in influencing how people actually perceive that fight.



I don't think so.

I believe Orochimaru was just an arrogant douche with a shiny new toy that got broken because he didn't know how to play with it properly.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 29, 2012)

SaVaGe609 said:


> Honestly, I don't care what anyone says. These are questions that will never be answered. Kishi probably couldn't answer them himself, and he won't ever have to. So fanbases...deal with it.
> 
> I will say that I believe Itachi would defeat Orochimaru nine times outta ten, but not neither as easily as he did in their two confrontations, nor how easily Itachi-tards want to believe he can. And that is because Itachi is a bad match for Oro. Just as Gai is a bad match for Kisame.



A bad match-up how?

Dude, Itachi has a considerable arsenal of OHKO moves that do not take but seconds to use. Itachi is a fighter that one has to be on very high alert to fight. Can't look into his eyes, 'cause you may get Tsukiyomi'd. Unless you're abnormally fast, you will get Amaterasu'd. He can then cause it to chase you if necessary.

Let's not talk about his near instantaneous ability to create exploding clones, and his full Susanoo which was able to protect him from Kirin, and his Yata's mirror that can protect him from virtually any attack. 

Believe me, Orochimaru is HARDLY the only shinobi he's a bad match-up for. People have limited Itachi's deadliness to his genjutsu, as if that is all you have to be concerned with. 

Not only that, but this is the guy whose had his intelligence mistaken for extra sensory perception by another character with tier 5 intelligence. That compliment to Itachi's intelligent was a first in this manga. When a brilliant shinobi think you're using ESP and you're only using your brain...

...you're pretty ridiculously smart. Flawless? Hardly. But, obviously Itachi is insanely bright.

Hell, Kabuto even though Itachi was lying when he said he wasn't a sensor. The dude is extremely skilled, capable of ending fights against high level shinobi in little to no time, and he is extremely intelligent. Jiraiya, while no dumby, is a Kage level shinobi with a 4.5 in intelligence. All of the Sannin have a 5 in brains, except Jiraiya. 

Yeah.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> It's because Itachi was shown twice to effortlessly dominate Orochimaru, someone Jiraiya always struggled with and considered his rival.



And yet he was shown fleeing from Jiraiya and needing one of his best jutsu to counter 1 minor jutsu from Jiraiya.

Why is you seem to only accept half of the story? That is the part I have never understood. 



> On top of that, you have Edo Itachi defeating a Hachibi-powered Edo Nagato (with some assistance for a Jutsu Jiraiya never had to deal with) whereas Jiraiya was defeated by a restricted Pain.



And again, only half of the story. You ignore the fact that we were straight up told Nagato was handicapped by a lack of mobility, Itachi had help from the 2 strongest Jinchuriki, he beat a Nagato being controlled by someone else and he was a zombie who couldn't be hurt with unlimited chakra.

Oh, you also forgot to mention how Pain had to blindside Jiraiya to form any chance of beating him. Even admitting he could have lost had he not kept the secret.

So dang....You don't even accept half of the story. More like the 1/5th taken out of context that supports your bogus argument. 



> Kishimoto also pretty much destroyed the myth that Jiraiya is faster than Itachi in Sennin Moodo and can dodge all of his attacks, since we know now that Itachi has no problem keeping up with Sennin Moodo or KCM on foot.



1. Sennin Mode does not mean equal speed for all Sennin Mode users. And in base Jiraiya is faster than both Naruto and Kabuto so if anything he is faster in SM as well.

2. KCM was never established as making Naruto faster than he was in Sennin Mode unless he used his super Shunshin which Itachi never faced. 

So yeah.....Nothing was shattered. Try again.


In any case though I don't think the speed gap is major.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Kishimoto also pretty much destroyed the myth that Jiraiya is faster than Itachi in Sennin Moodo and can dodge all of his attacks, since we know now that Itachi has no problem keeping up with Sennin Moodo or KCM on foot.



There's this myth floating around this forum that says that the faster individual should always be able to hit the slower one, and it's false for a number of reasons. Kabuto being quicker than Itachi has little relevance on whether or not Itachi can spar with him unless Kabuto's significantly faster: we know he's not, and so it makes sense that Itachi shouldn't find it hard to keep up with him. 

Likewise, it's rather amusing when certain members cite a dozen of Itachi's speed feats and act as if it's some sort of proof that he'd be able to dance around Jiraiya. Yes, Itachi's faster than Jiraiya, but that doesn't translate to him casually avoiding everything Jiraiya has to offer. 

I mean, when has speed really ever made that big of a difference? A vs. Sasuke is the only real example that anyone can give me; Deidara vs. Sasuke is one, but the former was still capable of reacting and he had a viable solution to Sasuke's speed. The only pure form of a blitz comes from a character that's not only renowned for his speed, but truly relies on it: Itachi hasn't a widespread reputation or the limited fighting style. 

Now if we're to go back to your claim, it's false because Itachi showed nothing that puts him above Kabuto; unless you have a good way of comparing Kabuto to Jiraiya, then there's no evidence saying that Itachi's faster than a sage-enhanced Jiraiya.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi has defeated Deidara, Orochimaru, Nagato (with help), Kabuto.

Jiraiya would likely lose to all of these as he was killed by a fraction of Pain's power, which is weaker than Nagato, could have had his head bitten off by Oro in Sannin duel, and Deidara could likely C4 his old ass and since he don't have Sharingan to see it, he dies.

Jiraiya, on the otherhand, has only ever defeated Konan, whom he had extensive knowledge on and the specific jutsus to counter her, but even Konan with prep could beat him.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm just gonna leave this here.

1. MS Itachi
2. Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
3. Jiraiya with Sage Mode


Take out Edo Tensei and Jiraiya jumps slightly above Orochimaru.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here.
> 
> 1. MS Itachi
> 2. Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
> ...



Nah, his Hydro form is up ther with Sage Jiraiya, Pain said each Sannin had specific forms didn't he?

Plus, in that Hydra form, Orochimaru is basically unkillable, to the point he was hinted as a threat to even MS Sasuke. One little mistake from Jiraiya means he gets poisoned, or gets Kusanagi'd, whereas Jiraiya, as powerful as he is, his jutsus aren't strong enough to kill Oro.

Frog song means he can stab Oro or attack him with Chou Oodama Rasengan, which won't kill him, Yomi Numa can be Oral rebirthed out of, basically Oral rebirth provides Oro a chance to survive each and everyone one of Jiraiya's jutsus, but Oro has more endurance than Jiraiya so he should win it. Or he can posion Jiraiya and not let Jiraiya do much.

Manda is also above Bunta.

Oro basically has Jiraiya beat.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 29, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> A bad match-up how?
> 
> Dude, Itachi has a considerable arsenal of OHKO moves that do not take but seconds to use. Itachi is a fighter that one has to be on very high alert to fight. Can't look into his eyes, 'cause you may get Tsukiyomi'd. Unless you're abnormally fast, you will get Amaterasu'd. He can then cause it to chase you if necessary.
> 
> ...



So your response is that, "everyone is a bad match up for Itachi because he is the best"...Okay.

Orochimaru has a five in genjutsu which makes it one of his strong suites. This is deemed useless because Itachi might as well have a ten is genjutsu. So you can throw that out the window. In terms of taijustu, Itachi is both superior and faster than Orochimaru. Oro's own trump card is a jutsu that increases his mass, which just makes him an easier target for Totsuka. Itachi has a number of one shot tactics, and he needs them in order to incapacitate Oro as quickly as possbile, because Lord knows Oro can outlast ordinary Itachi. 

So yes, Itachi is particularly difficult Orochimaru to defeat. These are all issues that someone like, say, Minato or SM Jiraya would have much less trouble dealing with.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi has defeated Deidara, Orochimaru, Nagato (with help), Kabuto.
> 
> Jiraiya would likely lose to all of these as he was killed by a fraction of Pain's power, which is weaker than Nagato, could have had his head bitten off by Oro in Sannin duel, and Deidara could likely C4 his old ass and since he don't have Sharingan to see it, he dies.
> 
> Jiraiya, on the otherhand, has only ever defeated Konan, whom he had extensive knowledge on and the specific jutsus to counter her, but even Konan with prep could beat him.




Your argument was credible until you mentioned Deidara, Deidara really, 

Deidara was like 10 yrs old and hes about the same level Kisame and Konan who were both one shouted by Jiriyia , Deidara might even be weaker than Kisame

While Itachi was very impressive against Nagato, Nagato explained that he would also be defeated by Jiriyia if he had knowledge, and while Itachi didn't have knowledge he had advantages that Jiriyia didn't have the luxury of having, it was much harder to fight Nagato through the proxy on enemy territory than fight the immobile Nagato who also had his focus on the jins.

If Itachi weren't an Edo and was backed by Sasuke he would've been killed twice by Kabuto.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

To me the comparisons don't even need to be evaluated using feats. Just use the benchmarking system for Sasuke and Naruto that Kishimoto set up.

The initial benchmark is obviously the Sannin, even Sakura was probably included in this given the similarities. She was forgotten though so she's no longer relevant

First Benchmark:
Orochimaru and Jiraiya

Sasuke and Naruto achieved SM and MS around the same time. At this exact moment was when they surpassed these individuals. SM Naruto was stated to have a better mastery over SM and MS Sasuke is blatantly superior to Orochimaru

Second Benchmark: Their Relatives
Itachi and Minato


Itachi was surpassed the moment Sasuke recieved his eyes. And not long ago was when Naruto managed to mimic his father's signature speed and the entire point of the Raikage confrontation was to emphasize the fact that Naruto has, in fact, surpassed his father in most aspects.

Final Benchmarks: Their symbolic counterparts
Madara and Hashirama.

They are still getting there in my opinion, but given the theme's established this relationship may be more about character development than about power. EMS Madara is probably slightly ahead of Sasuke given that ridiculous Susano-o and his experience and I give Hashirama the benefit of the doubt considering he was the superior of the two.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here.
> 
> 1. MS Itachi
> 2. Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
> ...



That's fine as long as you understand theres not a massive gap between them


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> A bad match-up how?



Obviously, genjutsu bypasses Oro's regeneration, and the sword of Totsuka is good for finishing him. Kusanagi and snake summons don't have the power to fight Susano'o, the only thing he has going for him is oral rebirth countering Amaterasu.

Compare to say, Bee, who can partner out of the genjutsu, kawarimi'd his way out of Amaterasu, later reacted to it in base with a counter attack, and has more raw power than Susano'o can deal with. HM Jiraiya can also partner out of genjutsu, should definately have the speed to react to and ways of countering Amaterasu, and has jutsu to fight Susano'o. Or Minato, who doesn't have a particular genjutsu defense but can dance around Itachi easily with FTG, and if he puts a jutsu shiki on him can defeat him before he can use Susano'o. 

None of those guys have their arsenal as well countered.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> I think the most important misunderstanding here is concentrated around what Itachi said regarding a confrontation with Jiraiya.
> 
> I'm going to emphasize this, so read it carefully and make sure you've got it down:
> 
> ...



If you feel you can only draw with an enemy in combat then as far as combat is concerned you are equals.

As far as a power comparison - well both Jiraiya and Itachi are more powerful than each other in specific areas. Itachi is better suited to defeat enemies 1 v1 while Jiraiya can do more damage to multiple enemies.

In the end they end up around the same power level as well.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The initial benchmark is obviously the Sannin, even Sakura was probably included in this given the similarities. She was forgotten though so she's no longer relevant
> 
> First Benchmark:
> Orochimaru and Jiraiya
> ...



Just going to point out the obvious flaw that makes your point null.

Naruto was said to have surpassed Minato at the same time as Jiraiya. 

Now there are more reasons I could list that we could debate for awhile but this one point is the most obvious and undeniable.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> You can feign ignorance, but I know that you know the reason why.
> 
> It's because Itachi was shown twice to effortlessly dominate Orochimaru, someone Jiraiya always struggled with and considered his rival.
> 
> ...




Itachi technically only defeated Oochimaru once and that's with Susanoo at the cost of his life, and Jiriyia fought Orochimaru without killer intent as he was trying to bring Orochimaru back to the village, you have to be leaps and bounds Strnger than someone to defeat them without killing them, Itachi couldn't defeat Orochimaru without taking out for good, shit no one has shown the strength to defeat Orochimaru in the physical form without killing him.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> To me the comparisons don't even need to be evaluated using feats. Just use the benchmarking system for Sasuke and Naruto that Kishimoto set up.
> 
> The initial benchmark is obviously the Sannin, even Sakura was probably included in this given the similarities. She was forgotten though so she's no longer relevant



Jiraiya and Oro were never benchmarks together. In fact it may be that Jiraiya and Minato were the two benchmarks together for Naruto.

Link removed


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Your argument was credible until you mentioned Deidara, Deidara really,
> 
> Deidara was like 10 yrs old and hes about the same level Kisame and Konan who were both one shouted by Jiriyia , Deidara might even be weaker than Kisame
> 
> ...



Deva Path mentioned that he they would not have won againts Jiraiya if they didn't have their secret, which means they hide and gangbang Jiraiya, as Jiraiya would have taken them out with Frog Song.

That means Jiraiya w/ knowledge>Pain w/o knowledge

But then when Pain got knowledge of Frog Song, he easily countered it, which means

Jiraiya w/ knowledge<Pain w/ knowlege

and then fight played out

Jiraiya w/o knowledge<Pain w/o knowledge.

Both on the same conditions, Pain wins, hands down, thats what Pain was getting at. Its not fair for Pain to shout out. Hey I have three bodies hiding!!

Thats just part of how ninjas are, and Pain won fair and square.

Jiraiya would get floored by Nagato under normal circumstances by Shinra Tensei, if Nagato had appeared instead of Animal Real, and before Jiraiya can even figure out about Nagato's Shinra Tensei and how it works, he'd have his soul ripped out as easily as Naruto did, before he even entered Sage Mode. Theres no way in hell Jiraiya beats Nagato.

Itachi, on the otherhand, without knowledge, was able to identify the weakness of Nagato's strongest jutsu, nullify it (with help) and seal Nagato.

That to me seems more impressive than anything Jiraiya has ever done, and also when you compare their performances againts Orochimaru, in which all you guys do is make excuses for why Jiraiya lost to Pain and Orochimaru.


----------



## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

> Just going to point out the obvious flaw that makes your point null.
> 
> Naruto was said to have surpassed Minato at the same time as Jiraiya.
> 
> Now there are more reasons I could list that we could debate for awhile but this one point is the most obvious and undeniable.



The Raikage/Naruto mini arc and the massive amounts of parallels that have just been established between Minato and Naruto are more than enough for me to overrule that statement.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi, on the otherhand, without knowledge, was able to identify the weakness of Nagato's strongest jutsu, nullify it (with help) and seal Nagato



WTF?

I'm pretty certain Jiraiya would defeat Nagato with the help of current Naruto and Bee.

I mean seriously did you just try and make the most invalid comparison of all time?


----------



## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> The Raikage/Naruto mini arc and the massive amounts of parallels that have just been established between Minato and Naruto are more than enough for me to overrule that statement.



"Statements only apply when and where they support my argument."  Eh heh.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The Raikage/Naruto mini arc and the massive amounts of parallels that have just been established between Minato and Naruto are more than enough for me to overrule that statement.



Except that you can't, because the statement was never overruled. 

So there are a couple of ways we can go with it.

1. You can assume Itachi is stronger than both Jiraiya and Minato based off of your attempt at the benchmark argument. Meaning your benchmark argument is still faulty because you lined up Oro and Jiraiya as opposed to Jiraiya/Minato and Oro. Meaning you have to find someone new to line up Itachi with. 

or

2. You can look at the statement Pa made as less black and white. As in Naruto surpassed them in a way (mastering SM) but not in the overall picture.

You can't however, overrule something that the author never overruled.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The Raikage/Naruto mini arc and the massive amounts of parallels that have just been established between Minato and Naruto are more than enough for me to overrule that statement.



Must be nice to live in ignorance.

I mean this isn't a scenario where it was a poor translation, or 500 chapters ago.(for fuck sakes Kishi even showed us with the art as well as the text so there could be NO MISTAKE) Kishi made it explicit that Naruto surpassed Minato *AND* Jiraiya. But in classic Itachi fandom fashion, we will just ignore anything we don't like.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> And yet he was shown fleeing from Jiraiya and needing one of his best jutsu to counter 1 minor jutsu from Jiraiya.
> 
> Why is you seem to only accept half of the story? That is the part I have never understood.



Hmm, there are a lot of problems with what you just said:

1. Itachi fled from Jiraiya because he didn't want to fight him. If he was scared, then I would agree with you that it meant something. But he was totally calm in that situation.

2. Gamaguchi Shibari is no "minor" Jutsu; Jiraiya himself considered it inescapable and was visibly shocked when he realized Itachi had escaped it.

3. Jiraiya got the drop on Itachi with that Jutsu.

4. Itachi's Jutsu trumped Jiraiya's in the end.

So you are the one who is leaving out some important details and warping others.



> And again, only half of the story. You ignore the fact that we were straight up told Nagato was handicapped by a lack of mobility, Itachi had help from the 2 strongest Jinchuriki, he beat a Nagato being controlled by someone else and he was a zombie who couldn't be hurt with unlimited chakra.



I never ignored any of that. Nagato's lack of mobility didn't stop him from manhandling Naruto and Killer B, and they...didn't really help at all, aside from Chibaku Tensei (which I just said in my last post was a Jutsu Jiraiya never had to face). I also did specify that it was Edo Nagato, so the fact that he was being controlled was implicit in what I said. The fact that Itachi was immortal didn't really matter, since he was never hit anyway (unless you count the off-panel Shinra Tensei, for which there is still no verification).



> Oh, you also forgot to mention how Pain had to blindside Jiraiya to form any chance of beating him. Even admitting he could have lost had he not kept the secret.



No, Pain was beating Jiraiya just fine until Jiraiya decided to fight guerilla-style (which is what you do when you have less power/resources than your enemy; Jiraiya admitted he was going to lose otherwise). This was half the bodies of a Pain who wasn't going to use Chibaku Tensei or a large Shinra Tensei, by the way.



> So dang....You don't even accept half of the story. More like the 1/5th taken out of context that supports your bogus argument.



And yet you say things like "Pain needed to blindside Jiraiya to beat him" and "Itachi needed one of his best Jutsu to counter one of Jiraiya's minor Jutsu" when they clearly aren't true. You're leaving out more details than I did, and I only left out what I thought didn't matter; plus, you are actually flat-out lying about some things...



> 1. Sennin Mode does not mean equal speed for all Sennin Mode users. And in base Jiraiya is faster than both Naruto and Kabuto so if anything he is faster in SM as well.



Naruto and Kabuto have undergone training since the last databook was applicable. Furthermore, there's no evidence to show that the speed boost across Sennin Moodo users is uniform when one of them is imperfect.

In terms of feats, SM Naruto displayed speed against Pain that easily matched or exceeded Jiraiya's, and Kabuto was able to dodge Sasuke's chakra arrows (which Kakashi needed Kamui to deal with; this is the same Kakashi whose speed was shown on par with Tendou's).



> 2. KCM was never established as making Naruto faster than he was in Sennin Mode unless he used his super Shunshin which Itachi never faced.



Granted, but Kyuubi chakra always grants a passive speed boost. We've seen it many times, and Neji bothered to make a clear remark on it when he fought Naruto in the Chuunin Exams.

We've seen other Jinchuuriki benefit from the same kind of chakra speed boost, such as Killer B.

It wasn't A-level Shunshin speed, but Jiraiya's not capable of that anyway.



> So yeah.....Nothing was shattered. Try again.



I'm only going to agree with you because the argument that SM Jiraiya was faster than Itachi never had any substance to begin with. You can't shatter something that was never whole.



> In any case though I don't think the speed gap is major.



There doesn't seem to be one.



Akitō said:


> There's this myth floating around this forum that says that the faster individual should always be able to hit the slower one, and it's false for a number of reasons. Kabuto being quicker than Itachi has little relevance on whether or not Itachi can spar with him unless Kabuto's significantly faster: we know he's not, and so it makes sense that Itachi shouldn't find it hard to keep up with him.
> 
> Likewise, it's rather amusing when certain members cite a dozen of Itachi's speed feats and act as if it's some sort of proof that he'd be able to dance around Jiraiya. Yes, Itachi's faster than Jiraiya, but that doesn't translate to him casually avoiding everything Jiraiya has to offer.
> 
> I mean, when has speed really ever made that big of a difference? A vs. Sasuke is the only real example that anyone can give me; Deidara vs. Sasuke is one, but the former was still capable of reacting and he had a viable solution to Sasuke's speed. The only pure form of a blitz comes from a character that's not only renowned for his speed, but truly relies on it: Itachi hasn't a widespread reputation or the limited fighting style.



Speed makes a huge difference, provided its relationship with distance and time is properly understood.



> Now if we're to go back to your claim, it's false because Itachi showed nothing that puts him above Kabuto; unless you have a good way of comparing Kabuto to Jiraiya, then there's no evidence saying that Itachi's faster than a sage-enhanced Jiraiya.



When did I claim that Itachi was faster than Kabuto or Jiraiya?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> WTF?
> 
> I'm pretty certain Jiraiya would defeat Nagato with the help of current Naruto and Bee.
> 
> I mean seriously did you just try and make the most invalid comparison of all time?


Yeah, and if Bee had not being there, Nagato would not have made himself mobile.

And if Kabuto wouldn't be controlling him, he'd never have used Chibaku Tensei at the start since its a way beyond OC move for him, infact Kabuto used it because it was 3 vs 1.

And no, I don't think Jiraiya could have won, cause I don't think Jiraiya is smart enough to develop a counter like Itachi did, or that he is skilled enough with Kunais to take out shared vision.

Infact, it took Jiraiya like 2 chapters and the help of his frogs to notice shared vision.

And at the same time, Jiraiya doesn't have a jutsu like Totsuka to help him deal with an Edo, or even reach Nagato, since he can absorb Jiraiya's mid range ninjutsus no problem. And it takes Jiraiya 1 whole chapter to enter Sage Mode, whereas Itachi can use his MS instantly.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Except that you can't, because the statement was never overruled.
> 
> So there are a couple of ways we can go with it.
> 
> ...


Minato didn't even have SM, and it was never stated, or hinted it was in SM, thats a bs analogy you made up to suit your needs, and then you say Itachifans take stuff out of context.

Fukasaku, didn't know of Minato's true powers. As Jiraiya's mentor, and having taught him about Sage Mode, and having fought alongside him, he DID know of Jiraiya's overall status.

And even though he didn't even know of Naruto's FRS, he still commented Naruto>Jiraiya.

The whole point of that arc was Naruto surpassing Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Yeah, and if Bee had not being there, Nagato would not have made himself mobile.




That's is quite irrelevant. The point is saying Itachi defeated Nagato with the help of two top tier nijas and using that as something more impressive than anything Jiraiya has done is nothing short of asinine. 

Jiraiya would defeat Nagato as well with current Bee and Naruto.



> Infact, it took Jiraiya like 2 chapters and the help of his frogs to notice shared vision.



The frogs are part of Jiraiya power set. They are his summons.



> And at the same time, Jiraiya doesn't have a jutsu like Totsuka to help him deal with an Edo, or even reach Nagato, since he can absorb Jiraiya's mid range ninjutsus no problem. And it takes Jiraiya 1 whole chapter to enter Sage Mode, whereas Itachi can use his MS instantly.



Frog song. Swamp of the underworld. Edos can be trapped or sealed.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

> I mean this isn't a scenario where it was a poor translation, or 500  chapters ago.(for fuck sakes Kishi even showed us with the art as well  as the text so there could be NO MISTAKE) Kishi made it explicit that  Naruto surpassed Minato *AND* Jiraiya. But in classic Itachi fandom fashion, we will just ignore anything we don't like.


Okay I was wrong.
But calling me an Itachi fan is beyond idiotic.



> Frog song. Swamp of the underworld. Edos can be trapped or sealed.



Swamp of the underworld won't work on a guy who can create forests in instants. He'd just elevate himself out. When I say Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei I'm specifically referring to an Orochimaru with Hashirama and Tobirama who won't just sit in the back and make kukuku comments the entire fight.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> Minato didn't even have SM, and it was never stated, or hinted it was in SM, thats a bs analogy you made up to suit your needs, and then you say Itachifans take stuff out of context.
> 
> Fukasaku, didn't know of Minato's true powers. As Jiraiya's mentor, and having taught him about Sage Mode, and having fought alongside him, he DID know of Jiraiya's overall status.
> 
> ...



Then why was Minato placed in that panel at all?


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay I was wrong.
> But calling me an Itachi fan is beyond idiotic.



Look I'm sorry I confused your motivation behind completely ignoring that which could not be ignored. I thought it was the standard reason. I guess I was wrong.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Swamp of the underworld won't work on a guy who can create forests in instants. He'd just elevate himself out. When I say Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei I'm specifically referring to an Orochimaru with Hashirama and Tobirama who won't just sit in the back and make kukuku comments the entire fight.



You are replying to things out of context. I did not reply to your post with the one you just quoted.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> That's is quite irrelevant. The point is saying Itachi defeated Nagato with the help of two top tier nijas and using that as something more impressive than anything Jiraiya has done is nothing short of asinine.
> 
> Jiraiya would defeat Nagato as well with current Bee and Naruto.
> 
> ...


Yomi Numa gets absorbed, Frog song, Nagato can regenerate from the damage he suffers due to it.

Bee and Naruto were done for, Jiraiya wouldnt know of shared vision unless it was a rematch, which already makes it unfair. He's not as good as kunais as Itachi is, and he begins in Base mode, so he'll likely be one-shotted by Nagato's first Shinra Tensei.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

Well I didn't realize that he explicitly said "he surpassed" I thought it was only assumed because of the silhouette of Minato behind Naruto. I missed that panel. I thought he only stated something like "did you see that"


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Deva Path mentioned that he they would not have won againts Jiraiya if they didn't have their secret, which means they hide and gangbang Jiraiya, as Jiraiya would have taken them out with Frog Song.
> 
> That means Jiraiya w/ knowledge>Pain w/o knowledge
> 
> ...




There's a difference in understanding part of someone's arsenal as opposed to not even knowing if the enemy you face is even before you or not, or that you have to face 6 enemies instead of 3, Nagato's secret is a huge part of his power and what makes him so dangerous.

Naruto was stronger than Jiriyia but only for a short while because his SM only lasted 5 minutes , truth is if there was no time limit SM Naruto with knowledge would've decimated Pain, even though Pain had knowledge on SM Naruto was destroying him until the 5 minute limit kicked in.

Pa and Ma also showed they were much more effective working in tandem with Jiriyia than they were with Naruto due to Kurama's influence, There's many ways Jiriyia can take out Deva Realm if he has knowledge on his jutsu, Deva is strong but he's underwhelming in CQC as we've seen when Base Naruto was kicking his ass at the end of the fight , which means Jiriyia could just overwhelm Deva in close quarters.

Itachi didn't have knowledge but he wasnt on enemy terrain and he was fighting an immobile Nagato who was focusing all his attention on the jins.

It's not about excuses but Jiriyia was trying to bring Orochimaru back to the village so he wasn't fighting with Killer intent, Itachi had to seal Orochimaru to defeat him and that's not what Jiriyia was trying to do, similar to Naruto sure Naruto could've just killed half blind Sasuke in the Kage arc, but he's trying to bring him back to the village, so Naruto will have to be much stronger than Sasuke to accomplish this goal.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Itachi fled from Jiraiya because he didn't want to fight him.



Obviously he didn't want to fight him. Why risk death when he wanted to be around for Sasuke? 



> Gamaguchi Shibari is no "minor" Jutsu; Jiraiya himself considered it inescapable and was visibly shocked when he realized Itachi had escaped it.



When I say minor I meant it as more of a comparison piece. Itachi needed a big chakra drain and loss of eyesight while Jiraiya had to simply summon a creature, a casual move for him. 



> 3. Jiraiya got the drop on Itachi with that Jutsu.



Jiraiya also was outnumbered and had 2 people to protect. So the "handicaps" as one might say existed on both ends. 



> 4. Itachi's Jutsu trumped Jiraiya's in the end.



Yes, but to little avail for actually winning the fight we are talking about. He managed to take out only a portion of the jutsu and do no damage to Jiraiya, while weakining himself fairly significantly. 



> Nagato's lack of mobility didn't stop him from manhandling Naruto and Killer B,



Yes, because they charged him like idiots. Had Naruto chucked an FRS while Nagato was seeing into a smoke cloud he would have killed him as well. 



> and they...didn't really help at all, aside from Chibaku Tensei (which I just said in my last post was a Jutsu Jiraiya never had to face).



Not true. They kept Nagato distracted and gave Itachi more insight from not having to fight him the entire time directly. 



> No, Pain was beating Jiraiya just fine



Pain had his eyes blown out and had not managed to land a single hit on Jiraiya. Not sure how you translate that to Pain winning. 



> You're leaving out more details than I did



I haven't left out any details. Or at least no relevant details. 



> Naruto and Kabuto have undergone training since the last databook was applicable.



True, but levels don't typically jump that fast without some kind of special boost. 



> Furthermore, there's no evidence to show that the speed boost across Sennin Moodo users is uniform, especially when one of them is imperfect.



1. There is no evidence to the contrary either. 

2. Even if the boost isn't even it doesn't mean an enhanced boost covers the gap. 



> In terms of feats, SM Naruto displayed speed against Pain that easily matched or exceeded Jiraiya's,



Not really. IIRC he never managed to overwhelm Pain purely off of speed as Jiraiya did. His one solid feat was hitting Asura but that was an Asura not even looking at him or attempting to fight him. 



> and Kabuto was able to dodge Sasuke's chakra arrows (which Kakashi needed Kamui to deal with; this is the same Kakashi whose speed was shown on par with Tendou's).



That comparison doesn't really work as we have no way to relate it back to Jiraiya. Unless of course we assume all of the Pain bodies have the same speed. In which case again, Jiraiya was the only one we have seen actually overwhelm Pain with speed. 



> Granted, but Kyuubi chakra always grants a passive speed boost.



True, but that doesn't mean it is on par with SM. 



> I'm only going to agree with you because the argument that SM Jiraiya was faster than Itachi never had any substance to begin with. You can't shatter something that was never whole.



It had some substance to it. Again, I don't think there is a major gap or anything, but there is a reasonable argument to be made.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Yomi Numa gets absorbed,



Absorbed by what? It's a big swamp.



> Frog song, Nagato can regenerate from the damage he suffers due to it.



He gets sealed while incapacitated.



> Bee and Naruto were done for, Jiraiya wouldnt know of shared vision unless it was a rematch, which already makes it unfair.



In this scenario Jiraiya would be in the same place as Itachi, which means he would be aware of all of Nagato's abilities.



> He's not as good as kunais as Itachi is, and he begins in Base mode, so he'll likely be one-shotted by Nagato's first Shinra Tensei.



Jiraiya has other abilties to use like his summons. Whatever the case Jiraiya would obviously be able to beat Nagato with the help of this manga's two most powerful ninjas.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Minato didn't even have SM, and it was never stated, or hinted it was in SM



The whole thing had to do with SM. Why would he be talking about something else?

In any case, it doesn't much matter. You either have that option or you accept that Naruto completely surpassed Jiraiya and Minato at the same time.

So the benchmark argument fails whether you are butthurt about it or not. 



> Fukasaku, didn't know of Minato's true powers.



We don't know how much Pa knew or didn't know. In any case he believed Naruto surpassed both of them. So if you are going to use it as definitive proof that Naruto > Jiraiya you have to use it as Naruto > Minato as well. 



> And even though he didn't even know of Naruto's FRS, he still commented Naruto>Jiraiya.



And he commented Naruto > Minato.

So the benchmark argument still fails. 



> The whole point of that arc was Naruto surpassing Jiraiya.



And Minato apparently


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Well I didn't realize that he explicitly said "he surpassed"



That's why when people tell you something you either confirm it or disprove it.

Just saying "nah imma ignore that" isn't something a logical poster does.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

I'd put Jiraiya at elite Jounin to low Kage level. He needs a ridiculous amount of distractions and prep for Sage Mode, and any decently competent ninja should be able to take care of that.

Itachi, on the other hand, is above Kage level, equal or greater to Nagato.


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> I'd put Jiraiya at elite Jounin to low Kage level. He needs a ridiculous amount of distractions and prep for Sage Mode, and any decently competent ninja should be able to take care of that.
> 
> Itachi, on the other hand, is above Kage level, equal or greater to Nagato.



I'd put Itachi at elite Jounin to low Kage level. He has to pretty much kill himself to have any kind of decent chance to win a fight and any decently competent ninja should be able to exploit that.

Jiraiya, on the other, ia above Kage level (even though no such thing exists ), equal to or greater than Nagato.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> *I'd put Jiraiya at elite Jounin to low Kage level.* He needs a ridiculous amount of distractions and prep for Sage Mode, and any decently competent ninja should be able to take care of that.
> 
> Itachi, on the other hand, is above Kage level, equal or greater to Nagato.



I see we have a comedian on our hands

Really what's so hard to understand

We have statements and proof that Orochimaru, Nagato, Jiriyia, SM Naruto, Itachi, MS Sasuke, Danzo ,Minato are all around the same level,

The only shinobi who exceed Jiriyia for sure are BM Naruto(end of the arc) Kabuto, Hashirama, EMS Sasuke(end of arc) , Madara there's no debate over those shinobi being stronger than Jiriyia and most sane  credible posters wouldn't argue otherwise,

This page is 10 pages going back and forth with legit arguments being made on both sides, there's a reason for that.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I'd put Itachi at elite Jounin to low Kage level. He has to pretty much kill himself to have any kind of decent chance to win a fight and any decently competent ninja should be able to exploit that.
> 
> Jiraiya, on the other, ia above Kage level (even though no such thing exists ), equal to or greater than Nagato.



A healthy Itachi has no chance to kill himself during battle.

So... Rinnegan Madara isn't above Kage level?


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> So... Rinnegan Madara isn't above Kage level?



No. He would just be one of the strongest Kage level shinobi.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi is above Jiraiya and Orochimaru w/o Edo Tensei but the gap is not that big(Itachi-fans)


The Benchmarks were very clear.

Sharingan Sasuke beginning of pt 2>Kakashi    - Naruto FRS>Kakashi
MS Sasuke>MS Itachi and Orochimaru            - SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya and Minato
EMS Sasuke>EMS Madara(not yet)                - BM Naruto>Hashirama(probably not yet)


Lol at those who said Sasuke need EMS to surpass Itachi, MS Sasuke eyes power and Chakra are superior than of MS Itachi.

As for SM Naruto surpassed Minato, Kishi made it very clear that Naruto don't need to be superior in all areas to surpass someone. example: Naruto FRS being superior than Kakashi.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> No. He would just be one of the strongest Kage level shinobi.



There's a level we can create for the average Kage ninja. It's simple statistics--if there isn't too much of a deviation from the average Kage ninja, we consider that ninja "Kage level." 

Rinnegan Madara is far above that, and so is Hashirama. Hashirama isn't Kage level despite being a Kage, because he's above it.

Aizen from Bleach is considered far above Captain level despite being a Captain. In Bleach, the concept of an average "Captain" is widely used, and Aizen's overall spiritual power is twice of that.


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## Akitō (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> When did I claim that Itachi was faster than Kabuto or Jiraiya?



You didn't. You said, "Kishimoto also pretty much destroyed the myth that Jiraiya is faster than Itachi in Sennin Moodo..." And that's false, as there's no way to compare Jiraiya and Kabuto nor is there any reason to assume that Itachi's as fast as Kabuto.


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## Seph (Jul 29, 2012)

> And that's false, as there's no way to compare Jiraiya and Kabuto nor is there any reason to assume that Itachi's as fast as Kabuto.



Flawed Battledome logic. There's almost no way at all to compare most things, really.

How do you know Minato is faster than Itachi?  
How do you know Tsunade is stronger than SM Naruto?
How do you know Itachi is smarter than Shikamaru?

You don't. You can't compare feats to each other. All you can do is make assumptions which are incredibly likely to be wrong.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> Rinnegan Madara is far above that, and so is Hashirama. *Hashirama isn't Kage level despite being a Kage*, because he's above it.



Cool story bro. 

I am done here.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

Okay the Itachi thing is debatable, but Cyphon you actually think Jiraiya is anywhere near Nagato's level?


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

INB4 WALL OF TEXT


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay the Itachi thing is debatable, but Cyphon you actually think Jiraiya is anywhere near Nagato's level?



The tier I have Jiraiya and Itachi in they are pretty much the top of that tier, close to the next. Nagato and Minato and some others are that next tier.

So yeah, reasonably close where they can potentially win some fights but Nagato is more likely to win the majority of them. 

Which makes sense based off of our info. Nagato said Jiraiya could have killed him and Itachi (with favorable circumstances) pulled out a victory as well. 

So different tiers but not a MAJOR gap.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 29, 2012)

Seph said:


> Rinnegan Madara is far above that, and so is Hashirama. Hashirama isn't Kage level despite being a Kage, because he's above it.



This, this right here explains perfectly why there is no such thing as Kage level. Dub it something else if being a kage doesn't constitute being Kage level. Elite Jounin, perhaps? 

Kage is a title. Sannin is a title.


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## αce (Jul 29, 2012)

Okay well that's more reasonable.
I thought you implied something else.

Personally I think the gap between Nagato and the rest is clear cut, but some people see otherwise.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> The tier I have Jiraiya and Itachi in they are pretty much the top of that tier, close to the next. Nagato and Minato and some others are that next tier.
> 
> So yeah, reasonably close where they can potentially win some fights but Nagato is more likely to win the majority of them.
> 
> ...



I don't think one can be in another tier, but only be "slightly" stronger as shinobi within the same tier should be close to each others "level" , so it would be more accurate to say Nagato is slightly stronger than Jiriyia although they are in a similar tier.

To me being in another tier warrants a considerable gap, for instance Madara is in another tier from Jiriyia as he's considerably stronger than Jiriyia,

Itachi and Jiriyia are in another tier from Kakashi as they are considerably Stronger than him.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Obviously he didn't want to fight him. Why risk death when he wanted to be around for Sasuke?



Itachi also wasn't really there to capture Naruto, so he had no reason to fight Jiraiya in the first place.



> When I say minor I meant it as more of a comparison piece. Itachi needed a big chakra drain and loss of eyesight while Jiraiya had to simply summon a creature, a casual move for him.



The caliber of a Jutsu is not determined by the physical cost with which it is executed; you wouldn't call Perfect Susano'o or C4 "minor" Jutsu, for example (or maybe you would; I can't speak for you on that).

All of Jiraiya's Jutsu just happen to not have that insane toll on his health. Itachi's do; they are vastly more powerful than Jiraiya's, so they come at a high price to someone with such low stamina. Sacrificing to obtain great power is what the Mangekyou Sharingan has always been about.



> Jiraiya also was outnumbered and had 2 people to protect. So the "handicaps" as one might say existed on both ends.



Itachi had his own agenda and his own motives as well, so there's really no way to say how that confrontation would have gone if he had committed to it.



> Yes, but to little avail for actually winning the fight we are talking about. He managed to take out only a portion of the jutsu and do no damage to Jiraiya, while weakining himself fairly significantly.



Itachi's Jutsu was not directed at Jiraiya.



> Yes, because they charged him like idiots. Had Naruto chucked an FRS while Nagato was seeing into a smoke cloud he would have killed him as well.



Probably. But Jiraiya needed to ambush Pain to make his Jutsu effective, so I don't see your point.



> Not true. They kept Nagato distracted and gave Itachi more insight from not having to fight him the entire time directly.



Itachi intervened to rescue Naruto and B, though; he didn't take the opportunity to ambush Nagato, but instead came out into the open to face him. That's when Chibaku Tensei was used, and that's...really the only thing Naruto and B helped him with.



> Pain had his eyes blown out and had not managed to land a single hit on Jiraiya. Not sure how you translate that to Pain winning.



Well I didn't; Jiraiya did. I'm just assuming he knew what he was talking about. Unless you are talking about after Jiraiya used guerilla tactics, which voids my statement entirely because I wasn't referring to that.



> I haven't left out any details. Or at least no relevant details.



You said Pain needed an ambush to beat Jiraiya.

You forgot to mention the part where Jiraiya was losing initially and had to fall back on asymmetric warfare to compensate. You also kind of didn't mention the part where Pain had no knowledge of Sennin Moodo and Gamarinshou...and was fighting in an environment where he wasn't willing to freely exercise his full power. These things are all quite relevant.



> True, but levels don't typically jump that fast without some kind of special boost.



We've yet to get a decent picture of their improvement.



> 1. There is no evidence to the contrary either.
> 
> 2. Even if the boost isn't even it doesn't mean an enhanced boost covers the gap.



You're missing the point. The bottom line here is feats, and Jiraiya's don't put him above these two (or Itachi); they never have.



> Not really. IIRC he never managed to overwhelm Pain purely off of speed as Jiraiya did. His one solid feat was hitting Asura but that was an Asura not even looking at him or attempting to fight him.



Jiraiya never overwhelmed Pain with speed; Pain was able to react to his fastest attack with no visible difficulty.



> That comparison doesn't really work as we have no way to relate it back to Jiraiya.



Well we can establish that Kakashi and Pain Tendou are roughly equal in speed.

And Jiraiya wasn't really any faster than Pain.

So by extension, Sennin Kabuto's speed is more impressive than Sennin Jiraiya's, based on what we've seen.



> Unless of course we assume all of the Pain bodies have the same speed. In which case again, Jiraiya was the only one we have seen actually overwhelm Pain with speed.



Jiraiya never overwhelmed Pain with speed, so that might be where you are getting confused.



> True, but that doesn't mean it is on par with SM.



SM Naruto was only shown to be a little faster than Pain. And when Naruto was fighting Sandaime Raikage, the only advantages he said it had related to its detection ability with Kawazu Kumite.



> It had some substance to it. Again, I don't think there is a major gap or anything, but there is a reasonable argument to be made.



And that would be...?


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## King Scoop (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi and Minato have always been Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks. They are the examples of what Kishi considers to be the perfect shinobi. Orochimaru admitted that Itachi was stronger than him, and Jiraiya did the same thing with Minato.

Itachi=Minato > Orochimaru >= Jiraiya > Tsunade = Kakashi = Gai


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## Cyphon (Jul 29, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> I don't think one can be in another tier, but only be "slightly" stronger as shinobi within the same tier should be close to each others "level" , so it would be more accurate to say Nagato is slightly stronger than Jiriyia although they are in a similar tier.



I get what you are saying but that is not how I view my tiers. I think you can be a tier below someone and have a chance to beat them. So I still call it "close" because I don't think if there is a major gap that there are many chances to win. Or maybe that IS all a bit convoluted. In any case I put Nagato above Jiraiya and Itachi. 



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi also wasn't really there to capture Naruto, so he had no reason to fight Jiraiya in the first place.



True, but ultimately not relevant to the big picture. 



> All of Jiraiya's Jutsu just happen to not have that insane toll on his health. Itachi's do; they are vastly more powerful than Jiraiya's,



Thats the thing, they aren't vastly more powerful. Or at least not in a jutsu vs jutsu comparison, which is my point. Itachi needed Amaterasu just to take out a portion of Jiraiya's jutsu. Not even the whole thing. 



> Itachi had his own agenda and his own motives as well, so there's really no way to say how that confrontation would have gone if he had committed to it.



Well, there is a way to know. Kishi told us serious injury or death would be the result. How exactly that comes about is debatable of course. 



> Itachi's Jutsu was not directed at Jiraiya.



It still gives and idea of how their strength of jutsu measures up. 



> But Jiraiya needed to ambush Pain to make his Jutsu effective, so I don't see your point.



He didn't _have_ to ambush Pain, its simply what the situation allowed for an effective strategy. On open ground he could still have Fatty absorb something and still use Yomi Numa. 



> Itachi intervened to rescue Naruto and B, though; he didn't take the opportunity to ambush Nagato, but instead came out into the open to face him.



Actually he did ambush Nagato. He cut his arm off IIRC. 



> Well I didn't; Jiraiya did.



Jiraiya never said he was losing. 



> You forgot to mention the part where Jiraiya was losing initially and had to fall back on asymmetric warfare to compensate.



I didn't mention it because it is false and not really relevant even if it were true.

1. Jiraiya was never losing. Pain couldn't touch him. Which is what led to the eventual ambush. It was the only way he could actually land a hit.

2. Even if Jiraiya were losing he overcame that and forced Pain into the need for ambush. Again, because Pain struggled to do anything to Jiraiya. 



> You also kind of didn't mention the part where Pain had no knowledge of Sennin Moodo and Gamarinshou...



Relevance? 



> and was fighting in an environment where he wasn't willing to freely exercise his full power.



This is true. He wasn't willing to exercise his full power but we can't say how that would change it anyway. He still could have used most of his Pain bodies techniques without too much damage if he kept the scale of them down, like say vs Kakashi.

However, it seems that just further helps my point. He thought his best chance was ambushing Jiraiya as opposed to using the mostly full force of his powers. 

He was that threatened. 



> The bottom line here is feats, and Jiraiya's don't put him above these two (or Itachi); they never have.



Actually they kind of do. In any case feats are ambiguous without a middleground to compare. So all we have is that Jiraiya was faster in base and they all gained a boost in SM. So the closest thing we get is that he is probably faster in SM as well. 



> Jiraiya never overwhelmed Pain with speed; Pain was able to react to his fastest attack with no visible difficulty.



He overwhelmed him twice with speed. First when he blew Humans eyes out and the 2nd time when he kicked Animal. In fact that shows just how physically fast he is because Pain was fast enough to block Jiraiya's fastest ninjutsu but not fast enough to block Jiraiya's physical speed. 



> And Jiraiya wasn't really any faster than Pain.



Yeah he was. Shared vision just helped in certain cases to cover the gap. 



> SM Naruto was only shown to be a little faster than Pain. And when Naruto was fighting Sandaime Raikage, the only advantages he said it had related to its detection ability with Kawazu Kumite.



Not sure how that changes anything. Raikage still could have been faster than his SM speed so the important factor would still be the prediction. 

So it could easily be SM Naruto prediction > Raikage > SM Naruto speed > RM speed.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

Minato and Itachi are the benchmark of Naruto's and Sasuke's. They are in the same tier and above a tier of Jiraiya and Orochimaru.

-They are both the benchmarks of the 2 main heroes
-They are both directly related to the 2 main heroes (one is Naruto's father,the other is Sasuke's brother)
-They were both heroes for Konoha but they achieved that status in different ways (a more known and conventionnal one for Minato, a much more unconventionnal and discret way for Itachi)
-They were the ultimate representatives of the will of fire.
-They were both incredibly strong, calm, well trained and cool.

While the thought of Minato strengthens Naruto, the thoughts of Itachi strengthens Sasuke. While the Sanin were/are great, particularly Oro, they were merely stepping stones for both Naruto and Sasuke to reach their true objectives: Minato and Itachi. Sasuke wanted to walk a different path than his brother, so Oro taught him in his own ways. Naruto wanted to walk the path of the fourth, so Jiraiya taught him in his own ways.

The equality of these two (Minato and Itachi) further supports that, in the end, Sasuke and Naruto will be on equal footing in a battle between the two.

*Madara = Hashirama > Minato = Itachi > Jiraiya = Orochimaru​*
Legendary Figures > Family Member > Sannin 

Naruto/Sasuke will supass their benchmark (Family Member) and then they will go on to surpassing the legendary figures (Hashirama and Madara) and then they will have ultimate battle. Its also possible they will surpass their legendary figures during their battle were Kishi will show us reflection of Hashirama and Madara battles. Connect Naruto/Sasuke battle with Hashirama/Madara battle.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

Isn't it fun to repeat the same thing over and over while ignoring anything that disagrees with you?


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## Shattering (Jul 29, 2012)

This is new, Jiraiya fans arguing if Hashirama is above Jiraiya, here we go...


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2012)

Since we are powerscaling...

Minato's sperm cell > Sasuke = Madara = EOS Tobi = Shodai => Minato >>>> Nagato = Minato's teacher > Itachi

All of this is backed up by manga.


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## Hossaim (Jul 29, 2012)

Itachi is an entire tier if not 2 above Jiraiya and Oro

Healty Itachi, at least.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Minato and Itachi are the benchmark of Naruto's and Sasuke's. They are in the same tier and above a tier of Jiraiya and Orochimaru.



It's almost as if you haven't even read the manga.

Link removed


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

hmph said:


> Isn't it fun to repeat the same thing over and over while ignoring anything that disagrees with you?



What argument exactly disagrees with mine that hasn't been countered dozens of times? (Don't bring the Itachi statement because thats bullshit and you all know it.)



Elite Uchiha said:


> Since we are powerscaling...
> 
> Minato's sperm cell > Sasuke = Madara = EOS Tobi = Shodai => Minato >>>> Nagato = Minato's teacher > Itachi
> 
> All of this is backed up by manga.



This thread is about Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru and you didn't mention the Sannin.


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## hmph (Jul 29, 2012)

> What argument exactly disagrees with mine that hasn't been countered dozens of times? (Don't bring the Itachi statement because thats bullshit and you all know it.)



Well, lets start with why your reasoning is hilariously wrong. Its like where you state the equality of Itachi and Minato supports ... the equality of Itachi and Minato. Its circular reasoning that occurs because you presumed the conclusion then made things up to support it. You also call Itachi and Minato the "ultimate representatives" of the will of fire, when that trait clearly goes to Harishima. Etc Etc. 

Sasuke does not even draw on Orochimaru's powers, nor is anything made out of him "surpassing" the guy. Hell, he just ressurected him admitting Oro can do things he can't. And Oro promptly considers the people who influence Sasuke to include Tobi.

Well, in my view, the whole parrellel, benchmark, whatever thing is flawed from the get go. Naruto simply has more characters influencing him. Kakashi, Nagato, what not. Direct comparisons are more commonly made from him to Minato and Jiraiya, while from Sasuke to Itachi. Just like recently when Naruto tosses out that his mother, father, and ero-sennin are his heroes to look up to. And his powers are directly drawn from those two, and a little bit of his own, as well. It's nonsense.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's almost as if you haven't even read the manga.
> 
> Link removed



Going by hype alone (Which a lot of Jiraiya fan do) is not the correct way to determine ones strength. If the hype is not supported by its feats, then it shouldn't be used as an argument. 

By feats Minato is stronger than Sage Naruto.
By feats Itachi, Kisame and back up would destroy Jiraiya. 



hmph said:


> Well, lets start with why your reasoning is hilariously wrong. Its like where you state the equality of Itachi and Minato supports ... the equality of Itachi and Minato. Its circular reasoning that occurs because you presumed the conclusion then made things up to support it. You also call Itachi and Minato the "ultimate representatives" of the will of fire, when that trait clearly goes to Harishima. Etc Etc.



There are many representative of will of fire (Including Jiraiya), I only stated Minato and Itachi because they were most relevant to Naruto/Sasuke. 



> Sasuke does not even draw on Orochimaru's powers, nor is anything made out of him "surpassing" the guy. Hell, he just ressurected him admitting Oro can do things he can't. And Oro promptly considers the people who influence Sasuke to include Tobi.



Anyone would know Sasuke > Orochimaru. He surpassed him after he unlocked MS. 



> Well, in my view, the whole parrellel, benchmark, whatever thing is flawed from the get go. Naruto simply has more characters influencing him. Kakashi, Nagato, what not. Direct comparisons are more commonly made from him to Minato and Jiraiya, while from Sasuke to Itachi. Just like recently when Naruto tosses out that his mother, father, and ero-sennin are his heroes to look up to. And his powers are directly drawn from those two, and a little bit of his own, as well. It's nonsense.



There are many characters in Narutoverse, they all will play some part. But Kishi clearly set the theme here by placing shinobi's in groups. Such as making Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade a sannin. Being a Sannin we can tell them three are roughly equal in power. One is stronger then the other but only by a slight margin. This is enforced when Orochimaru claims he is stronger than Jiraiya during the Sannin battle. 

Minato and Itachi was set as Naruto's and Sasuke's benchmark during the 3rd Manga chapter. Kishi clearly set it out in part 1, then they both go to train under the Sannin (Orochimaru/Jiraiya) roughly at the same time. 

Hashirama and Madara are equal, Kishi will reflect Naruto's and Sasuke's fight with Hashirama's and Madara's. That is too obvious.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 29, 2012)

sick itachi > orochimaru with edo tensei > sm jiraiya > oro without edo


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> This thread is about Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru and you didn't mention the Sannin.



I mentioned Minato's teacher?

My list is backed up by manga statements.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Going by hype alone (Which a lot of Jiraiya fan do) is not the correct way to determine ones strength.



It's not Hype, it's a statement of fact. 

Besides the point has nothing to do with power levels and everything to do with Jiraiya having no connection to Oro in terms of benchmarks.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's not Hype, it's a statement of fact.
> 
> Besides the point has nothing to do with power levels and everything to do with Jiraiya having no connection to Oro in terms of benchmarks.



Your telling me Jiraiya = Minato now.  

Of course Orochimaru is not Naruto's benchmark.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your telling me Jiraiya = Minato now.



No I am telling you that Jiraiya as a benchmark has nothing to do with Oro as a benchmark with Sasuke. They have no connection and in fact Jiraiya is more connected with Minato than anybody else. Naruto mentions Jiraiya and feels for him in the same way he feels for his father.

As far as the story has shown Naruto's growth via Jiraiya coincides with Sasuke's via Itachi. Both Itachi and Jiraiya died at the same time and both of their legacies - Sage Mode and MS - were passed down as a result.

Oro has nothing to do with any of that.


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## Hossaim (Jul 29, 2012)

Lets do a power scale here

Itachi > Sasuke > Orochimaru > Jiraiya


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 29, 2012)

My points still stands. Just like to say that there are many characters in Narutoverse, so Naruto being the main character will obviously get influenced by some characters. But Kishi clearly set their path, 

Sannin -- Family Member -- Legendary Figures

This is simple concept.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Minato and Itachi are the benchmark of Naruto's and Sasuke's. They are in the same tier and above a tier of Jiraiya and Orochimaru.
> 
> -They are both the benchmarks of the 2 main heroes
> -They are both directly related to the 2 main heroes (one is Naruto's father,the other is Sasuke's brother)
> ...





ShinAkuma said:


> No I am telling you that Jiraiya as a benchmark has nothing to do with Oro as a benchmark with Sasuke. They have no connection and in fact Jiraiya is more connected with Minato than anybody else. Naruto mentions Jiraiya and feels for him in the same way he feels for his father.




Naruto surpasses Jiraiya and then Minato. Sasuke surpasses Orochimaru and then Itachi. 

Jiraiya and Orochimaru = Sannin

Naruto trains under Jiraiya and Sasuke trains under Orochimaru roughly at the same time.

Naruto shares some qualities of Jiraiya while Sasuke shares some qualities of Orochimaru* at that time*.

Orochimaru fled Konoha - Jiraiya as a friend tried to bring him back and failed. Sasuke fled Konoha - Naruto as a friend tried to bring him back and failed.

And your telling me there is no connection between Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 29, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Naruto surpasses Jiraiya and then Minato. Sasuke surpasses Orochimaru and then Itachi.





Here's the problem - Naruto surpassed Jiraiya *and* Minato at the same time...

Link removed

You don't get to make up your own version of the manga. We were told Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato. Naruto and Jiraiya's relationship has no connection to Oro/Sasuke outside of Jiraiya and Oro were both Sannins. As far as the manga has shown it was Jiraiya and Itachi who paralleled each other in the growth of Naruto/Sasuke.


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## arokh (Jul 29, 2012)

Let's agree on one thing. Itachi never intended to fight Jiraiya. That would mean Akatsuki would get kyuubi and world domination would be in their grasp. As you know that's exactly what Itachi was trying to prevent.

Jiraiya was great, but come on if Itachi unleashed Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo with shield+sword on him he and his frog stomach would be annihilated.


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## DUNGEON (Jul 29, 2012)

I seriously doubt Orochimaru knew about Jiraiya's sage mode.It was to be a well kept secret.Jiraiya didnt bring it with Pain until the last moment.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 29, 2012)

*Benchmark Kakashi*
_post Wind training Naruto ~ early part II Sasuke (before absorbing Oro)_

The whole goal of Wind training was for Naruto to "catch up" to Sasuke. He "surpassed" Kakashi in way by mastering FRS and KB experience. Overall this training was meant to make Naruto closing the gap with early part II Sasuke


*Benchmark Sannin: Jiraya & Orochimaru*
_SM Naruto ~ Hebi Sasuke_

Just when Naruto was on Sasuke's "level" the latter absorbs Oro giving us Hebi Sasuke. This was basically Sasuke with Oro's skills. His goal was Itachi, 
Then we get Naruto trying to avenge Jiraya by mastering SM.
This was basically Naruto with Jiraya's SM mastered. His goal was Nagato
Ironic that Kishi put Nagato & Itachi together in the war riiiight? Or perhaps symbolism 


*Benchmark Konoha's Shining Knight/Dark Knigt: Minato & Itachi*
_KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke (fully mastered)_

Naruto goal was always to become Hokage. Even though not directly stated it was always obvious Yondaime had a special relationship with Naruto. We always saw close-ups of Yondaime on Hokage mountain when Naruto wanted to "surpass" the Hokage. When he achieved KCM and his signature speed, we even got the Yellow Flash comment. _Also note that KCM was left for Naruto by Yondaime's Key_
Sasuke's goal was alway Itachi. To Kill him. With MS Sasuke was getting closer to Itachi. Except Itachi was prodigy to an extent that Sasuke never displayed with his MS. When he fully mastered MS trough final Susanoo for a brief period (vs Kakashi) his eyesight failed him. _Note that MS was given to Sasuke by Itachi_ 


*Benchmark Legendary: Hashirama & Madara* 
_BM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke (if fully mastered)_

These latter are extensions of Sasuke's and Naruto's powers. Note that BM is an extension of KCM while EMS is merely an extension of MS


*Benchmark Haxxx*
Rinnegan Madara / Tobi


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> True, but ultimately not relevant to the big picture.



It is absolutely relevant. You were saying Itachi fled from Jiraiya; this establishes that he was never interested in fighting Jiraiya in the first place.



> Thats the thing, they aren't vastly more powerful. Or at least not in a jutsu vs jutsu comparison, which is my point. Itachi needed Amaterasu just to take out a portion of Jiraiya's jutsu. Not even the whole thing.



Itachi's Jutsu *are* vastly more powerful. Tsukuyomi can one-shot pretty much anyone who gets caught. Amaterasu can destroy Bijuu. Susano'o is a mountain-level defense and OHKO offense all in one. They are all insanely powerful and effective Jutsu; that's why they have such harsh consequences and can only be used such a limited number of times for someone with Itachi's stamina.

If their Jutsu *were* the same level, Itachi would lose due to having less stamina than Jiraiya, since they could just stalemate eachother's Jutsu until one of them runs out (which would be Itachi).

But that isn't the case.



> Well, there is a way to know. Kishi told us serious injury or death would be the result. How exactly that comes about is debatable of course.



That's my point.

That's why it doesn't say anything about their power; people are just extrapolating a strength relationship based on the outcome, which is flawed.



> It still gives and idea of how their strength of jutsu measures up.



I agree, and it shows that Itachi's Amaterasu was vastly more powerful. It broke through Jiraiya's Jutsu and allowed Itachi to escape.



> He didn't _have_ to ambush Pain, its simply what the situation allowed for an effective strategy. On open ground he could still have Fatty absorb something and still use Yomi Numa.



No, because then they would just surround him and attack in coordinated turns like they had been doing. For that matter, yes, he ambushed "fatty" with the Kage Bunshin hiding in a shadow on the wall of the hallway Pain was running through in order to stall him with the Katon. We also have no idea if he used Yomi Numa when Pain jumped or if he set it up beforehand.

Jiraiya himself was the one who said he would die if he kept fighting them directly, so there's no room for debate here.



> Actually he did ambush Nagato. He cut his arm off IIRC.



Yeah but Nagato was an Edo Tensei; it didn't take him out of the fight.



> Jiraiya never said he was losing.



All his attacks were being negated and he said "I'm going to die." That's...losing.



> I didn't mention it because it is false and not really relevant even if it were true.
> 
> 1. Jiraiya was never losing. Pain couldn't touch him. Which is what led to the eventual ambush. It was the only way he could actually land a hit.
> 
> 2. Even if Jiraiya were losing he overcame that and forced Pain into the need for ambush. Again, because Pain struggled to do anything to Jiraiya.



Again, you're wrong:

Link removed

Link removed

Link removed

Jiraiya knew he would be killed. That's why he fell back. He knew that splitting them up/dividing their power was the only way to beat them, because he'd only die if he tried to take them on all at once.

The fact that Pain had been unable to hit him up until then is immaterial; Jiraiya had already decided that he was going to die based on their exchange.



> Relevance?



If Pain had proper knowledge of Jiraiya, he could have prevented him from running away and casting Gamarinshou. This goes doubley if he has Tendou on the field; he can BT Jiraiya to prevent his escape or just flatten the building he's in. But he said he didn't know Jiraiya was capable of such a powerful Genjutsu and ended up running right into Jiraiya's trap; it was poor judgment on his part, and having better knowledge of what he was dealing with might have allowed him to utilize his tools more effectively to kill Jiraiya.



> This is true. He wasn't willing to exercise his full power but we can't say how that would change it anyway. He still could have used most of his Pain bodies techniques without too much damage if he kept the scale of them down, like say vs Kakashi.



That's where having more knowledge would have helped Pain, as it would have helped Jiraiya as well.

Unless Pain made the same stupid mistake anyway, in which case, that's PIS/CIS and doesn't really reflect his strength properly.



> However, it seems that just further helps my point. He thought his best chance was ambushing Jiraiya as opposed to using the mostly full force of his powers.
> 
> He was that threatened.



You don't need to be threatened to know that ambushing someone is the most effective way to take them out. I mean, that's like...Ninja 101.

Pain had Jiraiya beaten, so Jiraiya ran away. Then Pain went after him, and Jiraiya used an ambush to get the better of Pain. All Pain did was return the favor.



> Actually they kind of do. In any case feats are ambiguous without a middleground to compare. So all we have is that Jiraiya was faster in base and they all gained a boost in SM. So the closest thing we get is that he is probably faster in SM as well.



Except we don't know what that speed boost is, or even if there is one, without feats. And the feats show that SM Jiraiya, SM Naruto, SM Kabuto, and Itachi are all around the exact same speed, because they all fight pretty much equally with eachother and with the same opponents.



> He overwhelmed him twice with speed. First when he blew Humans eyes out



He kicked away someone who came running at him; there's nothing unusual or impressive about that.



> and the 2nd time when he kicked Animal.



Again, same thing basically happened; he reacted to an incoming assailant.



> In fact that shows just how physically fast he is because Pain was fast enough to block Jiraiya's fastest ninjutsu but not fast enough to block Jiraiya's physical speed.



It doesn't show anything except that Jiraiya can react in time to kick someone who is as fast as he is when they come charging towards him. Which is...normal. I can do that. You can do that. Anyone can do that.



> Yeah he was. Shared vision just helped in certain cases to cover the gap.



Jiraiya was never shown to be faster than Pain; the shared vision just allowed Pain to keep track of him around smoke clouds and such. Most of the time, there was only one set of eyes on him.



> Not sure how that changes anything. Raikage still could have been faster than his SM speed so the important factor would still be the prediction.
> 
> So it could easily be SM Naruto prediction > Raikage > SM Naruto speed > RM speed.



Except KCM Naruto was able to hit the Raikage with FRS at close range without the benefit of SM's enhanced sensory power (which I still don't quite understand, but whatever), so that would be incorrect.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 29, 2012)

Its not clusterfuck fanboys just can't get over theres fav chars

Its been made clear as day Itachi is way above Oro or jiraya but some tards can't accpt it.

Just like some can't accpt Neji is not relvant any more, Gai seems to be as good as kakashi or better, Minato is not as strong as tobi and his victory was luck ect...etc.

Its a never ending line of tards that won't give up or conseed no matter what the manga says even if kishi himself said it in a interview they would say the interview was fake or thats not the real kishi or something.


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## Samehada (Jul 29, 2012)

*And this is why I disagree why everything must have a tier.* Many NF member's minds run on pure power scaling than advantages and disadvantages. Analyzing character's strengths have been demoted to simple "he said 'so and so', he defeated 'so and so.'" With that logic, does it make sense to say "Gai > Kakashi" because Gai was able to solo Kisame but Kakashi needed backup against Kakuzu? You would say, "Of course not! Gai was the perfect counter to Kisame while Kakuzu's ninjutsu arsenal was a great counter to Kakashi's closer combat ninjutsu style!" Not every character in Naruto gets defeated simply because they were completely "weaker" than the other ninja. They lose because one ninja had the advantage/counter to the other. 

Here is another example: Diedara was able to defeat Gaara. This was because Gaara uses a more defensive long range approach in his fighting style while Diedara prefers pure long range bursts. Now, Diedara lost to Sasuke because Sasuke has the elemental advantage and greater mobility. Does this automatically mean CM Sasuke > Gaara? Not at all. Diedara's style was just more advantageous against Garaa's style and vice versa when comparing Sasuke with Diedara. 

*Can we stop comparing Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Itachi with each other now? There is no "Minato Level" or "Sannin Level." It simplifies the thousands of ninjutsu, skills, and scenarios to the point of ignorance. *


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 29, 2012)

They are all in the same tier regardless of who'd win, good thread.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 29, 2012)

Samehada said:


> *And this is why I disagree why everything must have a tier.* Many NF member's minds run on pure power scaling than advantages and disadvantages. Analyzing character's strengths have been demoted to simple "he said 'so and so', he defeated 'so and so.'" With that logic, does it make sense to say "Gai > Kakashi" because Gai was able to solo Kisame but Kakashi needed backup against Kakuzu? You would say, "Of course not! Gai was the perfect counter to Kisame while Kakuzu's ninjutsu arsenal was a great counter to Kakashi's closer combat ninjutsu style!" Not every character in Naruto gets defeated simply because they were completely "weaker" than the other ninja. They lose because one ninja had the advantage/counter to the other.
> 
> Here is another example: Diedara was able to defeat Gaara. This was because Gaara uses a more defensive long range approach in his fighting style while Diedara prefers pure long range bursts. Now, Diedara lost to Sasuke because Sasuke has the elemental advantage and greater mobility. Does this automatically mean CM Sasuke > Gaara? Not at all. Diedara's style was just more advantageous against Garaa's style and vice versa when comparing Sasuke with Diedara.
> 
> *Can we stop comparing Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Itachi with each other now? There is no "Minato Level" or "Sannin Level." It simplifies the thousands of ninjutsu, skills, and scenarios to the point of ignorance. *



Going by what we have seen, Gai would destroy Kakashi.

I can understand what you're saying, but power is linear; how it manifests qualitatively is certainly important, but there's always a definite quantity regardless.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> They are all in the same tier regardless of who'd win, good thread.



Depends how broad you are willing to make the tier. If you put Jiraiya and Orochimaru in Itachi's tier, you would have to throw in some Kage and Akatsuki as well, including Pain/Nagato and Minato.


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## JPongo (Jul 29, 2012)

Jiraiya > Itachi/Oro.

Nothing to discuss.


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2012)

I can see people debating Itachi and Orochimaru being stronger than Jiraiya to a certain extent, because they are debatable ether way, which was the clear intention of the author. However this none sense about Hebi Sasuke being equal to SM Naruto is one of the worst argument I have seen on the entire forum.


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## Mithos (Jul 29, 2012)

arokh said:


> Let's agree on one thing. Itachi never intended to fight Jiraiya. That would mean Akatsuki would get kyuubi and world domination would be in their grasp. As you know that's exactly what Itachi was trying to prevent.
> 
> Jiraiya was great, but come on if Itachi unleashed Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo with shield+sword on him he and his frog stomach would be annihilated.



Except they tried to steal Naruto when Jiraiya wasn't there. So yes, Itachi was going after Naruto. Itachi even created a distraction by casting genjutsu on a beautiful woman so they would have time to snatch him before Jiraiya got back. 

Itachi wouldn't annihilate Jiraiya, ever. They've been portrayed consistently as relative equals.


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## Jiraiya4Life (Jul 29, 2012)

These threads depress me, why can't we all just enjoy the characters for who they are and not just base them off of who they can defeat! 

Now, after reading this ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD (I have such a head-ache now ) I have come to the conclusion that every single character discussed: Jiraiya, Itachi, Nagato, Minato, Naruto, Sasuke, Orochimaru, and Kabuto COULD ALL BEAT ONE ANOTHER if the situation allowed it. Kishimoto does not think the way we do when writing the battles in his manga, to be honest, no good writer would. Kishimoto writes the outcome and what's said in each battle based off of how he wants the PLOT to turn out. 

For instance, in the Pain Vs. Jiraiya battle, Kishimoto obviously KNEW that he wanted Jiraiya to die in order to give Pain the infamy his character needed and to give Naruto a motive to increase in power to get on Sasuke's level and defeat Pain. At the same time, Kishimoto values all of his characters and added in the "could have beaten me with knowledge" dialogue in order to let readers know that even though Jiraiya was defeated, it wasn't because he lacked anything; that would anger a specific kind of fandom that Kishimoto and his staff make money off of.

So while we are using petty excuses and fake-scenarios to try and "prove" that our favorite character is stronger than another, the truth is that Kishimoto most likely does NOT think of things like, "ITACHI > JIRAIYA THEREFOR HE DEFEATS NAGATO", are you kidding? Itachi defeated Nagato for plot purposed, in fact EVERY battle and every EVENT that goes on in this manga is for plot purposes; not to show which character is stronger than which.

Of course we can have our own opinions on the matter, and I have my own, but that's all they are; OPINIONS. And everyone has different opinions, because they're different people.Debating someone else's opinion is always intriguing, but don't expect to ever obtain a logical conclusion from it.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 29, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Depends how broad you are willing to make the tier. If you put Jiraiya and Orochimaru in Itachi's tier, you would have to throw in some Kage and Akatsuki as well, including Pain/Nagato and Minato.



Which I do.  

The thing about tiers, or leagues, whatever is that characters that have a chance of beating each other are clearly in the same league. A character that doesn't have a chance to beat them isn't in the same league. Jiraiya and Itachi both have a chance to beat Nagato, and each other, which is they are in the same league and argued so much. Kakashi who cannot beat any of them is not in their league. It would be a different story if he could beat at least two of them, but he can't. It's that simple. Whoever anyone _thinks_ will win is an entirely different story and doesn't effect the tiers/leagues. 

People start using micro-tiers, which I think is a horrendous and fundamentally flawed concept in and of itself. The winner of a fight in this manga has always largely depended on MANY factors: strength, speed, intelligence, skill, offense, defense, supplementary, versatility, elements, information, circumstances, weaknesses, plot, etc. 

We see that all the time in the manga, which is why we all argue about it so much. We argue who'd beat who, which is fine and it's sorta fun, but then people start using micro tiers and then it starts going to hell because that isn't how this manga works, never has. This isn't like other mangas like Dragonball Z, YuYu Hakusho, or even Bleach. 

Take for instance: Gaara > Lee > Sasuke > Naruto > Gaara.
It's clear that they are all in the same league, it's just that some have advantages over one another. If you start using micro tiers then it doesn't make sense how Naruto can beat Gaara when he was the lowest and Gaara was the highest.

Another instance: Gaara Sr. > Trollkage > Gaara > Gaara Sr. 
See that? Gaara was able to surpass his father, but his father's gold turned out to be the perfect counter to Trollkage whom was dominating Gaara. I could go on, but what I'm trying to get at is keeping things in perspective.

I hope I was able to effectively express my viewpoint.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 29, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Which I do.
> 
> The thing about tiers, or leagues, whatever is that characters that have a chance of beating each other are clearly in the same league. A character that doesn't have a chance to beat them isn't in the same league. Jiraiya and Itachi both have a chance to beat Nagato, and each other, which is they are in the same league and argued so much. Kakashi who cannot beat any of them is not in their league. It would be a different story if he could beat at least two of them, but he can't. It's that simple. Whoever anyone _thinks_ will win is an entirely different story and doesn't effect the tiers/leagues.
> 
> ...



Itachi>Oro

Oro w/ or w/o ET is > Jiraiya

Just admit it.


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## Rios (Jul 30, 2012)

Matto-sama said:


> They've been portrayed consistently as relative equals.



Really now? How someone can say that when all Jiraiya got was a relatively unimpressive fight against Pain where he only kept up because of self aware summons while Itachi has been having much more fights, display of feats and diverse opponents to beat. A statement in part 1 cant keep up with all this new information. It is getting as ridiculous as "no matter what new shit I show I can never be stronger than you because I admitted ambiguous equality in part 1" >.>


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## BringerOfCarnage (Jul 30, 2012)

Itachi's statements about Jiraiya shouldn't be taken to heart-that's extremely obvious by now 

If you examine Itachi's trip to Konoha, one thing is very clear:
As much as he could help it, Itachi didn't want to hurt/kill any shinobi.



The fight was started by Asuma and Kurenai, whereas Itachi was clearly reluctant to fight.
Finally, even after Kakashi forced him into a confrontation, Itachi didn't kill him, though it would have been extremely easy.


When he was to confront Jiraiya, he had to convince Kisame that it wasn't worth it:
It's pretty obvious that he was trying to play Kisame when he said that Jiraiya is at his level, but at the same time, would beat/severely injure them even with backup.

He had Jiraiya right in front of him in the hotel alley, and yet turned his back to deal with Sasuke-something one doesn't do if the threat is too great (Kisame claimed to be far inferior to Jiraiya, and yet Itachi allowed him to watch his back)

There's also this statement:


Finally, there's also the high probability that Itachi was passing information to Jiraiya, especially considering that Jiraiya knew exactly what was going to happen just as soon as Itachi did (making a move on Gaara, Orochimaru's death, etc)

About Itachi vs Orochimaru:
Kishimoto couldn't have possibly made it clearer that Itachi>>>Orochimaru.
Orochimaru was fearless against KN4, Hiruzen (who sucked when he was old anyway, but had a fearsome reputation) and Tsunade+Jiraiya, but didn't have the guts to make another attempt on Itachi's body.

If your bias makes you see it another way, there's nothing I can say or do...


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

>Fed up of constant clusterfuck.
>Decides to make another.
>States opinion like fact.

Yeah no.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Which I do.
> 
> The thing about tiers, or leagues, whatever is that characters that have a chance of beating each other are clearly in the same league. A character that doesn't have a chance to beat them isn't in the same league. Jiraiya and Itachi both have a chance to beat Nagato, and each other, which is they are in the same league and argued so much. Kakashi who cannot beat any of them is not in their league. It would be a different story if he could beat at least two of them, but he can't. It's that simple. Whoever anyone _thinks_ will win is an entirely different story and doesn't effect the tiers/leagues.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying.

But during the Chuunin Exams, it's actually: Naruto>Gaara>Lee>Sasuke. The reason Naruto lost to Lee like fodder was because they did not have a fight where anything was at stake; back when Naruto used to be a good character, the drive to protect what was important to him gave him strength. Without that imperative, his lack of talent always showed. He beat Gaara because pretty much EVERYTHING he cherished was at stake, which allowed him to fight to what was his full potential at the time.

While I can appreciate that certain characters are more effective against different characters than others, it's also impossible to deny that there are clear power relationships in the manga. Rikudou Sennin vs. Inari really isn't questionable to any sane person who knows what they're capable of.

That's an extreme example, but it serves my point.


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## Arthas (Jul 30, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> But during the Chuunin Exams, it's actually: Naruto>Gaara>Lee>Sasuke. The reason Naruto lost to Lee like fodder was because they did not have a fight where anything was at stake; back when Naruto used to be a good character, the drive to protect what was important to him gave him strength. Without that imperative, his lack of talent always showed. He beat Gaara because pretty much EVERYTHING he cherished was at stake, which allowed him to fight to what was his full potential at the time.
> 
> ...



Actually the Gaara vs Sasuke example is the perfect example of how different circumstances can affect the outcome.

During the Third Exam, Sasuke was beating Gaara and would have won the match (as Gaara fainted after the Chidori). After the match though when Gaara really began calling on the one-tails power, then it flipped around to Gaara beating Sasuke. 

In this case unless Gaara came all out from the start then he would loose, if he did he would have won. Problem is though in most circumstances fighters don't come out swinging with their demon cloak active.

 It's like Lee starting a match with eight gates active. Theoretically possible but unlikely in the extreme. (and then you have him fight the guy who can/does knock Lee out before Lee activates the gates and wonder about who is stronger. )

Also  I'd place Sasuke > Lee at that point. Sasuke already has Lee's speed at that point plus the Sharingan.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 30, 2012)

why another thread lyk this??? why
to be honest did any of you change your stand on who comes untop of who thanks to this thread??
i think these characters being constantly brought up and people being oddly enough emotionally attached to this characters have brought unnecessary spite to * fictional characters* very sad indeed. 

my 2 cents here is an amaterasu from the get go is still GG against jiraiya but not against orochimaru.


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## arokh (Jul 30, 2012)

Matto-sama said:


> Except they tried to steal Naruto when Jiraiya wasn't there. So yes, Itachi was going after Naruto. Itachi even created a distraction by casting genjutsu on a beautiful woman so they would have time to snatch him before Jiraiya got back.



Kisame said "it seems you have already undone the genjutsu binding the woman", meaning they weren't expecting it to work. Itachi probably knew perfectly fine they wouldn't have time to grab Naruto.

Your claim assumes Itachi is evil. Which basically means you're wrong. Guess you're just one of those guys who don't believe what's in the manga and rather believe what's in your head.



> Itachi wouldn't annihilate Jiraiya, ever. They've been portrayed consistently as relative equals.



Oh right, equals huh. You mean like Orochimaru beat Jiraiya with no hands, and Itachi defeating Orochimaru at age 12? Fucking wake up dude.


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## phatpimpX4 (Jul 30, 2012)

Jiraiya's strength is hated on mostly by Itachi fans.

They don't want to admit that Itachi wasn't as strong as they claim (beyond Nagato), and the reality of Jiraiya fucks all this up.

The simple truth of the matter is that when Itachi and Jiraiya faced off, Jiraiya forced Itachi to resort to a technique that permanently blinded his ass to barely escape........While Kisame was with him.......while Jiraiya was not even in his strongest form.

We saw Kisame defeated by Gai, and no one will argue that the beast Guy as bad ass as he is, is superior to Jiraiya.

From this we know that if Kisame was by himself at that time, than Jiraiya would have one shotted Kisame. He's done.

Itachi if he was so much stronger as Itachi fans would have you believe, why did he blind himself further to barely escape.

If Itachi so easily beat Orochimaru and cares for Konoha so fuckin much, Why didn't he kill Orochimaru when he had the chance???

The only response to these points are fanfiction, and that is why these points are usually ignored by Itachi fans.

Instead they try to discredit Jiraiya and continue to hype Itachi, trying to say bullshit like Itachi > Minato or other bullshit.


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## Federer (Jul 30, 2012)

Eventhough I believe that Itachi is stronger than both Jiraiya and Orochimaru,

one can't disagree that Itachi is initially a horrible match-up against our beloved old pervert. Jiraiya is a guy who poses around and brags about himself before any fight, I mean ask yourself, is that really smart against a foe who can take you down by just staring at you? 

And don't come up with Jiraiya won't do that against Itachi arguments, he did the same thing against his own student, the one with the legendary Rinnegan. Who later called him clumsy as ever.

And he did it before the very eyes of Itachi and Kisame. Looking at the distance between the three of them, all Itachi had to do is use Amaterasu against base Jiraiya and he would have won.

Jiraiya is a typical Muten Roshi type of character, he's very strong and when the fight drags on, he gets the advantage over Itachi (stamina). But I just can't see Itachi not wrapping this up from the getgo.

Not to mention Itachi's been much faster than some people gave him credit for, note the fight against the Jinchuuriki. And statements don't prove anything, especially the ones from part I, how many statements were debunked?


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

To me kishi has made it plenty obvious that MS is equal to SM depending on the users ability with each respected powerup and there overall abilities.  I see both sasuke/Itachi with MS fully mastered on par or slightly stronger then Jiraiya. What Jiraiya lacks in SM perfection compared to naruto he makes up for experience and versatility. 

The Jiraiya/ Orochimaru/ Itachi thing...

1) The people who think Itachi is going to stomp, one panel, or destroy orochimaru/Jiraiya or vice versa are either a) trolling b) tards c) off there rocker d) all the above

2) Itachi being on another level from these two is innacurate

First off we do not know what exactly took place the first time orochimaru tested itachis power besides those few panels showing orochimaru in a binding genjutsu. All we can conclude at this point in the manga through that encounter and via orochimarus own admission is that Itachi is stronger then him. The second encounter does not need to be discussed since we all know what happened. 

To think itachi is easily going to beat orochimaru at full power is down right insanity since it will require itachi to use his strongest techniques to do so

Basically if a ninja must use there strongest techniques to defeat his opponent he is no way going to walk over his opponent with ease. Itachi obviiously used each situation agaisnt him(making an assumption on the first encounter) HOWEVER it should be clear to all that Itachi is the stronger of the two. 

Jiraiya is not orochimaru and they have different fighting styles and excell at different areas. Fighting technique plays an important role in determining how the matchups will go which tends to be overlooked on this forum.

All three of them would roughly be around the same level with Itachi having the slightest advantage over both due to his spiritual items and koto. Nothing suggests or is even linked to Itachi being vastly superior


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 30, 2012)

BringerOfCarnage said:


> Itachi's statements about Jiraiya shouldn't be taken to heart-that's extremely obvious by now
> 
> If you examine Itachi's trip to Konoha, one thing is very clear:
> As much as he could help it, Itachi didn't want to hurt/kill any shinobi.
> ...



This guy sums it up pretty nicely.

1. Itachi wouldn't turn his back on someone who at best they could draw with Kisame and more Akatsukis, and then, waste another 25% of his chakra on Tsukuyomi, after having used one on Kakashi already, so he'd be putting himself at 50% vs an opponent he said he'd at best tie at 100%.

2. Kisame later asked why is a retreat necesary.

3. Kisame didn't know Itachi had beat a Sannin before, easily, at 11.


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Has no problem hospitalizing Kakashi.

Has no problem with Kisame chopping off Naruto's legs.

Has no problem with the deaths of Asuma and Kurenai.

Has no problem with beating the shit out of Sasuke.

Lies about fighting Jiraiya because he was looking out for Konoha.









Seems legit.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Has no problem hospitalizing Kakashi.
> 
> Has no problem with Kisame chopping off Naruto's legs.
> 
> ...



How dare you use manga facts!


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## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

> one can't disagree that Itachi is initially a horrible match-up against our beloved old pervert. Jiraiya is a guy who poses around and brags about himself before any fight, I mean ask yourself, is that really smart against a foe who can take you down by just staring at you?



He's not off guard when he's doing that though, Pain had that thought and got a boot to the head for his trouble.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 30, 2012)

Jiraiya wouldn't even have gotten to Sage Mode if Pain started with all 6 bodies out.


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## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

That's a nice assumption. Of course, with a single arm he escaped all 6 paths and took one down, into a barrier where he should be able to enter SM easily. He was in SM to do it, but here at least he'd have two arms.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

as long as jiraiya doesn't start in sage mode. itachi could defeat them both even while they team up

itachi > orochimaru and jiraiya together

itachi > sm jiraiya
itachi > orochimaru with edo tensei


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Has no problem hospitalizing Kakashi.
> 
> Has no problem with Kisame chopping off Naruto's legs.
> 
> ...



Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto, the jinchuuriki. 

There are now translators who disagree that they were referring to Jiraiya. A Japanese and Spanish translator. There is simply no way that anyone can believe Jiraiya is strong enough to DRAW with Itachi and Kisame, let alone w/back up. 

The Kyuubi's jinchuurki, however, could pose a very major challenge even with backup. However, after meeting Naruto face to face, they realize he wasn't much of a threat. Why else do you think leaving Kisame to cover his back while he fought Sasuke was even a remote option?

If Naruto was as strong as they had previously thought, AND Jiraiya was his guardian, then that could DEFINITELY pose major problems. However, with Naruto being a nothing, Kisame is suddenly enough to cover Itachi.

That is totally consistent with Kisame asking Itachi why did he HE have to retreat. How do you ask a guy why he have to treat if he JUST told you the guardian of your target is strong enough to draw with the both of you, WITH backup? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Itachi not even mentioning Jiraiya as a reason for why he retreated pretty much tells us why he was willing to turn his back on him.

There was no way for Itachi and Kisame to know Naruto's level. Itachi hadn't been in the village in about five years at that point. Only after meeting him face to face did they deduce Naruto was a weakling.

If you consider how FAR LESS cautious Itachi acted after discovering Naruto was weak, then it shouldn't be THAT hard to wrap your head around why he didn't mention Jiraiya when asked why he needed to retreat.

But, the only people that can't see this are Jiraiya fans. SHOCK! I'm not saying Jiraiya fans are dumb, but considering Jiraiya fandoms has some of the most dedicated Itachi haters, it is no shock that they'd be the resistant to the notion that Itachi didn't actually think of Jiraiya as a major threat. From the moment Itachi came face to face w/ Jiraiya he very irreverent. 

Turning your back on your opponent is the ultimate sign of disrespect. He even thought Kisame alone was enough to cover his back against Naruto and Jiraiya. 

Why would Itachi, who had dealt with Orochimaru very easily, be petrified of another Sannin? He wasn't even afraid of Orochimaru, and there is ZERO evidence in the manga that Itachi had any reason to fear Jiraiya and not Orochimaru. 

Both Orochimaru and Jiraiya were Sage Mode users who didn't master SM. They are a part of the Sannin. Orochimaru, however, was the bigger genius, and is obviously the hardest to kill. However, no fear.


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## Sniffers (Jul 30, 2012)

The recent chapters have shown how close people are anyway, since we have Kakashi and Gai keeping up and fighting alongside KCM Naruto. It seems that when you are a top level shinobi it's more about match-ups, preparation and knowledge: abilities vs abilities.


Jiraiya and Orochimaru as masters of the main characters and overall legendary shinobi are among the strongest. They stand above most Kage, however they simply are inferior to the people they actually trained thier respective main characters to surpass: Minato and Itachi. Sure, they can pose a huge threat to even these two primary benchmarks, but it would just not make sense if they were as strong or stronger overall.

So while I'm willing to concede that Itachi and Minato are in the same tier as Jiraiya and Orochimaru, I think it is only fair that the main inspirations and drivers for achieving power of the main characters get an edge over the trainers. In this same way, while Jiraiya could defeat Nagato, I think we should give a definite edge to Nagato.



PS: SM Naurto does correlate to Hebi Sasuke. This is the power inherited by their Sannin masters, right after they developed their own S-class jutsu. They progress as a pair after all.


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## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

> Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto, the jinchuuriki.



The only response can be, no matter what you say they still booked it and ran the moment Jiraiya got involved.



> PS: SM Naurto does correlate to Hebi Sasuke. This is the power inherited by their Sannin masters, right after they developed their own S-class jutsu. They progress as a pair after all.



Ah, that must be why they learned SM and MS at the same time! Wait a minute...


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto, the jinchuuriki.



So they were sent on a mission to capture the Kyuubi but ran away because of the Kyuubi.

Seems legit.


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## JPongo (Jul 30, 2012)

It's not shameful for Itachi to have run away from Jiraiya.

He had to survive anyway to beat the only sannin he could.


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## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

> It's not shameful for Itachi to have run away from Jiraiya.
> 
> He had to survive anyway to beat the only sannin he could.



Which one would that be  Jiraiya fought Pain and Oro and Tsunade are still around.


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## principito (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you can't understand this incredibly basic point, you should reread the manga on Itachi's intentions.





Falkirion said:


> Basicaly, this.
> 
> Not sure why people can't understand it.



Well, people on the other side think that's just an excuse....

My honest opinion.... they are around the same lvl and for Itachi or Jiraya to fight each other for no reason wouldn't be very smart. Both could come out dead of that battle....

I dont see why THIS is so hard to understand


----------



## Turrin (Jul 30, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> PS: SM Naurto does correlate to Hebi Sasuke. This is the power inherited by their Sannin masters, right after they developed their own S-class jutsu. They progress as a pair after all.


No just no. SM Naruto would destroy Hebi Sasuke. We as readers don't have to look for any parallels between MS Sasuke and SM Naruto (as is the case with Hebi Sasuke and SM Naruto), because the author directly makes them in the manga during the final chapters of the kages arc and he directly has characters compare MS Sasuke to SM Naruto. First Zetsu and than Naruto. The only statement which potentially compares Hebi Sasuke's powers to SM Naruto's is Kabuto's which declares Naruto's SM a far greater power than Hebi Sasuke's CS.

Sasuke's Hebi powers and CS were simply a temporary power to make the battle between him and Itachi believable, so readers would think Hebi Sasuke stood a real chance of defeating Itachi, only to have it revealed later that Itachi was stronger than him and given Orochimaru's current hype of being weakened all this time, it will probably be revealed soon enough that Hebi Sasuke didn't even stand a chance against Orochimaru. While on the other hand SM was a permanent power for Naruto which he retains and has had a great impact on many of his battles even after his duel with Pain. 

Sasuke and Naruto are suppose to be relatively equals and thus receive relatively equal power ups throughout the manga. This can't possible be the case if Sasuke's Hebi powers was his equivalent to SM, since Sasuke no longer retains those powers, while Naruto retains SM. If KCM = MS and BM = EMS, Naruto would always have SM on top of that placing him well above Sasuke, which runs contrary to this ideal. Base Sasuke = Base Naruto, MS Sasuke = SM Naruto, EMS Sasuke = Naruto with Kurama's Power, on the other hand fits this ideal nicely.


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## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Turrin said:


> No just no. SM Naruto would destroy Hebi Sasuke.



CS2 Hebi Sasuke is equal or above SM Naruto, deal with it.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

Yeah, SM Naruto can't do anything to Hebi Sasuke while he's flying.

Hebi Sasuke > SM Naruto, tbh. Not even trolling / joking here.


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## Rios (Jul 30, 2012)

It is hard to understand because unless the landscape is heavily in his favor or he starts directly in SM and prepping the frog song, Jiraiya gets steamrolled quite easily. 

Of course he has a chance of killing Itachi but a whole bunch of characters also have a chance if they manage to start with a kunai to his throat.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

Lol SM naruto would rape hebi sasuke ..

Seriously people


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Lol SM naruto would rape hebi sasuke ..
> 
> Seriously people



Hebi Sasuke is much faster and more durable than MS Sasuke making him a good match against SM Naruto. So it is perfectly debatable whether Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto. 

MS Sasuke can kill SM Naruto with Amaterasu as SM Naruto is not as fast as Raikage to dodge this attack. 

If you think about it, MS Sasuke is much stronger than SM Naruto. Don't underestimate Amaterasu, it can one shot boss summon and with Sasuke's chakra he can spam it for a little while without any problem and he only needs one shot.


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## JPongo (Jul 30, 2012)

hmph said:


> Which one would that be  Jiraiya fought Pain and Oro and Tsunade are still around.



uh, what?

He never fought Tsunade, he ran away from Jiraiya, but beat Oro twice.

He could only beat Oro, canon


----------



## Danzio (Jul 30, 2012)

Hebi Sasuke is nowhere  near SM Naruto.


----------



## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

> uh, what?
> 
> He never fought Tsunade, he ran away from Jiraiya, but beat Oro twice.
> 
> He could only beat Oro, canon



Tis messing around. 

This Hebi Sasuke bullshit is hilarous though. Such desperation.


----------



## Danzio (Jul 30, 2012)

JPongo said:


> uh, what?
> 
> He never fought Tsunade, he ran away from Jiraiya, but beat Oro twice.
> 
> He could only beat Oro, canon



An Oro without killing intent and one who were severely weakened ( to be fair Itachi was blind)  

I don't consider those real fights.


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## Sniffers (Jul 30, 2012)

Turrin said:


> No just no. SM Naruto would destroy Hebi Sasuke. We as readers don't have to look for any parallels between MS Sasuke and SM Naruto (as is the case with Hebi Sasuke and SM Naruto), because the author directly makes them in the manga during the final chapters of the kages arc and he directly has characters compare MS Sasuke to SM Naruto. First Zetsu and than Naruto. The only statement which potentially compares Hebi Sasuke's powers to SM Naruto's is Kabuto's which declares Naruto's SM a far greater power than Hebi Sasuke's CS.
> 
> Sasuke's Hebi powers and CS were simply a temporary power to make the between him and Itachi believable, so readers would think Hebi Sasuke stood a real chance of defeating Itachi, only to have it revealed later that Itachi was stronger than him and given Orochimaru's current hype of being weakened all this time, it will probably be revealed soon enough that Hebi Sasuke didn't even stand a chance against Orochimaru. While on the other hand SM was a permanent power for Naruto which he retains and has had a great impact on many of his battles even after his duel with Pain.
> 
> Sasuke and Naruto are suppose to be relatively equals and thus receive relatively equal power ups throughout the manga. This can't possible be the case if Sasuke's Hebi powers was his equivalent to SM, since Sasuke no longer retains those powers, while Naruto retains SM. If KCM = MS and BM = EMS, Naruto would always have SM on top of that placing him well above Sasuke, which runs contrary to this ideal. Base Sasuke = Base Naruto, MS Sasuke = SM Naruto, EMS Sasuke = Naruto with Kurama's Power, on the other hand fits this ideal nicely.


Zetsu's comparison was made when the MS powers weren't even fully unlocked. When Naruto said he'd suicide against Sasuke that was referring to their future battle. It was nothing but a teaser to their final confrontation in which we know they will be equals. Besides, Naruto even admitted he still lacked something to actually defeat Sasuke the way he was.

It is true that Sasuke lost his Hebi powers, but Naruto doesn't actually combine KCM/BM with SM. It's one or the other. Besides, you subtly draw both KCM and BM into one power up to make your progression work. Kishimoto didn't name them differently for no reason. They are seperate, just like the MS and the perfect MS, the EMS, are separate.


*Spoiler*: __ 



You really can't tell me my progression doesn't make sense. Naruto developed his own S-class jutsu FRS to catch up to Sasuke who had developed Kirin (also an S-class jutsu). Then Sasuke inherited Orochimaru's unique powers and again a little later Naruto inherited Sage Mode, Jiraiya's signature powers. Then Sasuke loses Hebi powers and gets the power Itachi intended for him: MS. Naruto then basically replaces SM with KCM, the power Minato intended for him. Finally, Sasuke attains the EMS, the "_perfect MS.._" and Naruto attains BM, becoming the "_perfect Jinchuriki._"


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## ImSerious (Jul 30, 2012)

Minato>Nagato>=Itachi>Masters>Jiraiya=Orochimaru>SM Naruto>Hebi Sasuke.


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## Kanki (Jul 30, 2012)

Regardless of how well equipped they are to fight each other, it's obvious that SM Naruto > Hebi Sasuke overall. Sasuke gained the MS and became stronger than ever before, yet Zetzu still said Naruto > Sasuke at that time.

It makes literally no sense for an author to give a character a massive upgrade in abilities and yet have him weaker than he was before.


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## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

Guys, how the fuck can SM Naruto touch Hebi Sasuke?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

ImSerious said:


> Minato>Nagato>=Itachi>Masters>Jiraiya=Orochimaru>SM Naruto>Hebi Sasuke.



>Minato stronger than Nagato.  

This is what I believe to be correct. 

RM Naruto > Nagato >= Minato = Itachi > EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke > SM Naruto >= Hebi Sasuke = Orochimaru >= Kakashi = Gai = Jiraiya > Tsunade


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 30, 2012)

Without Susanoo SM Naruto blitzes Sasuke and knocks his head into outerspace, there's a reason they don't become equals until stage 4 Susanoo, basically the Kages arc was about Sasuke developing his Susanoo to match Naruto's SM.

@ Sniffers

Sasuke Hebi Powers would probably coincide with Naruto tailed forms up to 3kn as they were both powers in which Sasuke/Naruto relied but they weren't in full control then FRS/Kirin.

Naruto with FRS + 3KN was just as string as Hebi Sasuke he was just unwilling to rely on Kurama's power.

So to me

PT2 Sasuke devolve Kirin and is stronger than Naruto

Naruto relying on Kurama's power shows hes stronger than Sasuke but he doesn't wanna rely on that power so he creates FRS

So now Sasuke/Naruto are equal minus Kurama

Sasuke gains Hebi powers which he doesn't wanna use but because he wants to defeat Itachi he relies upon those powers

So Hebi Sasuke+ Kirin= 3KN Naruto + FRS

Then Itachi takes away Sasuke Hebi powers and gives him the MS which he trains with Tobi

Sasuke has MS and develops Amareutsu is his fight with Killer B

Naruto trains SM with Pa toad and is now a perfect Sage

So SM Naruto is stronger than Sasuke with imperfect MS

Tobi needs Sasuke to develop Susanoo so he trains him against the Kages

Sasuke gains stage 4 Susanoo after his fight with Danzo 

So now SM Naruto is equal to MS Sasuke even Naruto states this

They have surpassed Orochimaru and Jiriyia for sure and it's left ambigus as whether or not they have surpassed Minato and Itachi, they have the raw power to match Minato/Itachi but then Naruto learns about FTG while Itachi learns about Izanami.

Naruto develops RM while Sasuke gains EMS

This war Naruto trains RM and gains BM which puts him above Minato, Sasuke will train his EMS to put him above Itachi

So at the end of the war BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke will be equals

To me Kishi has left it Ambigious as to when or if Naruto has surpassed Minato or if Sasuke has surpassed Itachi.

I think it's safe to say Orochimaru Minato Jiriyia Itachi are very close in power and only the raw power freaks like Hashirama who could control 8 tailed beats, Madara with perfect Suanoo and could tame 9 tails, EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto who can solo Kages with clones and defect Bijuu's and Kabuto with Edo Tensei, are above the level off Jiriyia, Itachi, Minato and Orochimaru.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> >Minato stronger than Nagato.
> 
> This is what I believe to be correct.
> 
> RM Naruto > Nagato >= Minato = Itachi > EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke > SM Naruto >= Hebi Sasuke = Orochimaru >= Kakashi = Gai = Jiraiya > Tsunade



More like

S+
Hashirama/ Madara/ BM Naruto/ EMS Sasuke/ Tobi/ Kabuto 

S
 Minato/Itachi/Jiriyia/Nagato/Danzo/SM Naruto/MS Sasuke/Killer B

Orochimaru can either be in S+ or S tier depending on what Kishi does with him


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## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> More like
> 
> S+
> Hashirama/ Madara/ BM Naruto/ EMS Sasuke/ Tobi/ Kabuto
> ...



So EMS Sasuke is in Hashirama/Madara level but not Itachi?  reread Itachi vs Kabuto  please.

Hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara> Everything else

(forget the sithy part1 battle of Oro vs Hiruzen that whole fight has been retconed and fogotten by the author)
This simple fact has been stated by Madara and Kabuto, BM Naruto is not even close, and if you put current Sasuke in that tier then Itachi is a whole tier above.


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Zetsu's comparison was made when the MS powers weren't even fully unlocked. [/SPOILER]


Sure and the conclusion was that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke at that point. Than at the end of the arc when Sasuke unlocks his MS powers fully we get a statement that indicates their equality. 



> When Naruto said he'd suicide against Sasuke that was referring to their future battle. It was nothing but a teaser to their final confrontation in which we know they will be equals. Besides,


Naruto said any future battle, which means they could have fought in their SM and MS incarnations and the result would have been the same. That was the whole point of the thing with when two top notch ninja's clash they can read each others hearts. They were equals at that point. 



> Besides, Naruto even admitted he still lacked something to actually defeat Sasuke the way he was.


Naruto was saying defeating Sasuke required more than just strength, so it was not a matter of strength it was a matter of Naruto lacking the ability to overcome the ideals Sasuke embodied (cycle of hatred). Naruto had to first overcome his own hatred if he were to overcome Sasuke's, hence the waterfalls of truth and showdown with Kurama.

As for strength both knew that nether would remain stand still and not accumulate more power. That is why Sasuke went to obtain EMS and Naruto went to master Kurama's powers. 



> It is true that Sasuke lost his Hebi powers, but Naruto doesn't actually combine KCM/BM with SM.


Yes he does combined their powers. Did you not read the chapters where Naruto uses BM's powers and SM powers at the same time to defeat the Tobi's 6 paths?  

Combines their powers to stop Yonbi:
Link removed
Link removed

Combines their powers to stop the other 5 Bijuu:
Link removed
Link removed



> Besides, you subtly draw both KCM and BM into one power up to make your progression work. Kishimoto didn't name them differently for no reason. They are seperate, just like the MS and the perfect MS, the EMS, are separate.


I combine them because they are all the result of 1 power up Naruto has gained, Kurama's chakra. Kishimoto gives separate names to each mangekyo technique, but that doesn't change the fact that they are all the result of 1 power the Mangekyo. The training this entire arc was for Naruto to fully master Kurama, which taming Kurama is just another step on that path.

It's silly to separate them into two different power ups. Kishi did not separate the training for KCM and BM into two separate arcs. Kishi did not spent time comparing KCM Naruto to MS Sasuke, like he did with SM Naruto and MS Sasuke. Kishi had all of this happen in one arc as the result of of the same training and any future comparisons between Sasuke and a Naruto will be with a Naruto who has both KCM and BM due to mastering Kurama's powers.



> You really can't tell me my progression doesn't make sense. Naruto developed his own S-class jutsu FRS to catch up to Sasuke who had developed Kirin (also an S-class jutsu).


Before SM Naruto was compared to MS Sasuke. Naruto was being compared to base Sasuke, I.E. the one him, sakura, sai, and yamato fought. It's that Sauske that Naruto talks about how strong he is and trains to catch up to. Naruto had no clue about Kirin or how powerful Sasuke had become in his CS states and Naruto was never compared once to Hebi Sasuke. 

Kirin is also a much different technique from FRS. FRS combines a high level of nature manipulation and shape manipulation, which is much more comparable to Enton Kagatsuchi, which also combines high order shape and nature manipulation. It's also here that Sasuke surpass Itachi's abilities with one of Itachi's jutsu the same way that Naruto surpassed Minato abilities with one of his jutsu. Kirin on the other hand is all about nature manipulation and has nothing to do with shape manipulation and is a totally original creation on Sasuke's part. Yes there is the minor parallel of both being an S-rank elemental ninjutsu, but aside from that Enton Kagatsuchi and FRS are far more comparable in nature and as an accomplishment.



> Then Sasuke loses Hebi powers and gets the power Itachi intended for him: MS. Naruto then basically replaces SM with KCM, the power Minato intended for him. Finally, Sasuke attains the EMS, the "perfect MS.." and Naruto attains BM, becoming the "perfect Jinchuriki.


Except Naruto does not replace SM with KCM. We have seen Naruto use SM alongside KCM this entire arc, so that is just outright false. Also i'm sure the extension of Minato's intentions for Naruto's strength did not simply end at KCM. I'm sure Minato intended for Naruto to become a perfect Jinchuuriki and tame Kurama as a stepping stone to mastering "that jutsu", which was his ultimate power Minato seems to have intended for Naruto, not just KCM or even BM.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> So EMS Sasuke is in Hashirama/Madara level but not Itachi?  reread Itachi vs Kabuto  please.
> 
> Hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara> Everything else
> 
> ...




Sasuke hasn't even attempted an EMS jutsu, he was just support for Itachi to use Izanami, Itachi told Sasuke he had a plan and Sasuke just followed. 

Hashirama and Madara who were rivals that fought many times so I doubt Hashirama was that much stringer than Madara.

BM Naruto is a beast and we've only just scratched the surface on what he can do.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi>Oro
> 
> Oro w/ or w/o ET is > Jiraiya
> 
> Just admit it.



Orochimaru w/ Edo Temsei > everyone, including Itachi. 

There, I admitted it. 



Rios said:


> Really now? How someone can say that when all Jiraiya got was a relatively unimpressive fight against Pain where he only kept up because of self aware summons while Itachi has been having much more fights, display of feats and diverse opponents to beat. A statement in part 1 cant keep up with all this new information. It is getting as ridiculous as "no matter what new shit I show I can never be stronger than you because I admitted ambiguous equality in part 1" >.>



One character getting more fights doesn't mean superiority, it just means he has more feats. Jiraiya's all-out battle however was against one of the strongest characters in the series, gave said character a very hard time, and said character admitted that he could have lost. 
None of Itachi's fights can even compare to Jiraiya's. Itachi beat a weakened Orochimaru? Well Jiraiya could had beat fucking Nagato. Itachi beat Kakashi? Well Jiraiya could had beat fucking Nagato. Itachi beat Kurenai? Well Jiraiya could had beat fucking Nagato. Itachi beat chibi Deidara? Well Jiraiya could had beat fucking Nagato. You see where I'm going with this. Jiraiya >/= Nagato > chibi Deidara, Kakashi, Kurenai, sick Orochimaru all at the same time. Hell, it took Itachi, Bee, and a weakened Naruto to beat Nagato. 

With Itachi, we got more information about him, both strengths and weaknesses. As I pointed out above, his fights weren't as impressive as Jiraiya's either. 



BringerOfCarnage said:


> Itachi's statements about Jiraiya shouldn't be taken to heart-that's extremely obvious by now
> 
> If you examine Itachi's trip to Konoha, one thing is very clear:
> As much as he could help it, Itachi didn't want to hurt/kill any shinobi.
> ...



Itachi went to Konoha for Gaara, he wasn't there, so he went after Naruto instead. Itachi tried to stab and blow Kurenai up, used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi and ordered Kisame to kill him, and tried to lure Jiraiya away and was going to let Kisame cut off Naruto's legs. Itachi was going to capture Naruto. This was also all after Itachi shrugged off Kisame's resignation about trying to go after Naruto because of Jiraiya, he said he was no match and wasn't sure about Itachi, to which Itachi said that they are equals and went after Naruto anyway. If Itachi were going to lie, he should had agreed with Itachi. Calling someone your equal isn't an excuse to run away, hospitalizing Konoha shinobi isn't giving restraint, and if he were nearly as powerful as you believe then he could had just knocked them all out or something anyway- Jiraiya included. 

So Jiraiya didn't want to fight Itachi either, they were in cahoots. 

Except that Orochimaru's snake sensing makes him immune to genjutsu, his immortality/healing/respawning counters Amaterasu and any other physical attack, Edo Tensei gives him access to history's greatest like Hashirama which makes him invincible and Itachi can't even try to seal Orochimaru without trying to get Edo Tensei to end first- something that's virtually impossible to do. 



Nikushimi said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> But during the Chuunin Exams, it's actually: Naruto>Gaara>Lee>Sasuke. The reason Naruto lost to Lee like fodder was because they did not have a fight where anything was at stake; back when Naruto used to be a good character, the drive to protect what was important to him gave him strength. Without that imperative, his lack of talent always showed. He beat Gaara because pretty much EVERYTHING he cherished was at stake, which allowed him to fight to what was his full potential at the time.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how Naruto would had won even with something to lose. Lee was too strong, fast, and skilled in base let alone using the gates. Kimimaro pwn'd an army of KN0 Narutos, while a base Lee that was recovering from a spinal injury/surgery was able to fight evenly with him. Naruto's style just wasn't capable of competing against Lee's style. You make a good point though, I'm not denying that. 

Agreed, but Rikudou and Inari are in two vastly different leagues which comes back to what I was talking about too.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Cont...



Federer said:


> Eventhough I believe that Itachi is stronger than both Jiraiya and Orochimaru,
> 
> one can't disagree that Itachi is initially a horrible match-up against  our beloved old pervert. Jiraiya is a guy who poses around and brags  about himself before any fight, I mean ask yourself, is that really  smart against a foe who can take you down by just staring at you?
> 
> ...



Pein thought Jiraiya was an easy target too and got the boot- literally. 

The hallway presents a lot of "what if's," like what if Jiraiya just  came in using Toad Mouth Binding? It's also hard to say for sure if  Itachi could had actually pulled off the win doing that, Jiraiya could  had noticed something was about to happen and reacted to it, just like  Bee did against Sasuke's Amaterasu. As you recall, Bee tried to block  Amaterasu, but Jiraiya isn't a Bijuu and can't tank most jutsus like a  Bijuu can so he wouldn't try to block it, not to mention that Jiraiya can seal it. As I said, so many what if's. 

I can't see Itachi wrapping it up from the get-go, Jiraiya has  exceedingly high stats and a ton of jutsus, as well as a plethora of  experience and ability under his belt. It's really underestimating him  to say otherwise, and I hate to make the same kinds of arguments, but  Underworld Swamp GG, Food Cart Destroyer GG, Flattened Silhouette  Manipulation GG, etc. 

Actually Itachi's slower than people give him credit for, often  saying he's = or > Minato, SSJ2 Ei, KCM Naruto, SM- but we're shown Kakashi and Base Bee keeping up with him  and SM Kabuto blitzing him.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> This guy sums it up pretty nicely.
> 
> 1. Itachi wouldn't turn his back on someone who at best they could draw  with Kisame and more Akatsukis, and then, waste another 25% of his  chakra on Tsukuyomi, after having used one on Kakashi already, so he'd  be putting himself at 50% vs an opponent he said he'd at best tie at  100%.
> 
> ...



1. Jiraiya said he was going to let Itachi's and Sasuke's settle their  differences and told Naruto to stay back as well. So then why would  Itachi do all of that, according to whatever you're about to make up?  Hmm? 

2. Yeah, why is a retreat necessary if Itachi is Jiraiya's equal?  Kakashi wouldn't run from Gai and Naruto wouldn't run from Sasuke. 

3. Why wouldn't Kisame know that? It was also a dying Orochimaru without  killer intent, not to mention that Orochimaru didn't have all of his  kinjutsu back then like Edo Tensei and there was literally nothing  Itachi could had even done to even stop a healthy bloodlusted Orochimaru  at 11 without Totsuka. 



Vice said:


> Has no problem hospitalizing Kakashi.
> 
> Has no problem with Kisame chopping off Naruto's legs.
> 
> ...



Logical. 



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Jiraiya wouldn't even have gotten to Sage Mode if Pain started with all 6 bodies out.



Unless Jiraiya started in Sage Mode. Also, Jiraiya escaped from all six  and they couldn't get him. Go into his barrier, use Sage Mode, come back  out with Frog Song ready. 



eyeknockout said:


> as long as jiraiya doesn't start in sage mode. itachi could defeat them both even while they team up
> 
> itachi > orochimaru and jiraiya together
> 
> ...



You got that all mixed up. 



Divinstrosity said:


> Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto, the jinchuuriki.
> 
> There are now translators who disagree that they were referring to  Jiraiya. A Japanese and Spanish translator. There is simply no way that  anyone can believe Jiraiya is strong enough to DRAW with Itachi and  Kisame, let alone w/back up.
> 
> ...



So you're saying that Itachi could fight Kurama to a draw, regardless if  he had help from Kisame or anyone else? THAT'S unbelievable. They were  talking about Jiraiya the whole time, Kisame even said that Jiraiya  specifically is a match for them. Not to mention that they fearlessly  went after Naruto, Kurama's Jinchuuriki, after distracting Jiraiya and  retreated when Jiraiya showed up. The only people that can't see the  obvious are Itachi fans. SHOCK!

Itachi wasn't petrified, he said they were equals, and not only is  Orochimaru not an avatar for Jiraiya anymore than Obito is an avatar for  Itachi, but Orochimaru was dying and had no killer intent aside from  not having all of his kinjutsus. 



Sniffers said:


> The recent chapters have shown how close people  are anyway, since we have Kakashi and Gai keeping up and fighting  alongside KCM Naruto. It seems that when you are a top level shinobi  it's more about match-ups, preparation and knowledge: abilities vs  abilities.
> 
> 
> Jiraiya and Orochimaru as masters of the main characters and overall  legendary shinobi are among the strongest. They stand above most Kage,  however they simply are inferior to the people they actually trained  thier respective main characters to surpass: Minato and Itachi. Sure,  they can pose a huge threat to even these two primary benchmarks, but it  would just not make sense if they were as strong or stronger overall.
> ...



True. 

The problem here is that Naruto wanted to surpass ALL Hokages, not just  Minato. Not only that, but it seems that Orochimaru is actually far more  powerful than people previously believed. 

Hebi Sasuke does not correlate to SM Naruto. MS Sasuke and SM Naruto  were stated to be equals, they also got those power-ups at the same  time. Naruto got Rasenshuriken, Sasuke got Hebi abilities. Naruto got  Sage Mode, Sasuke got Mangekyou Sharingan. Then it was revealed that  Naruto did not surpass Minato, and Sasuke did not surpass Orochimaru.


----------



## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sasuke hasn't even attempted an EMS jutsu



Here we go again, there's not EMS jutsu, EMS = infinite MS

Hashirama's power is compared by Kabuto with the Sage's power, Madara was not even close, he admitted it and even with Kurama he lost.

BM Naruto will be stomped by Perfect Susano'o but it doesn't matter.

You are trying to put Sasuke in Hashirama's tier, you lack reading comprehension.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2012)

Arthas said:


> Actually the Gaara vs Sasuke example is the perfect example of how different circumstances can affect the outcome.
> 
> During the Third Exam, Sasuke was beating Gaara and would have won the match (as Gaara fainted after the Chidori). After the match though when Gaara really began calling on the one-tails power, then it flipped around to Gaara beating Sasuke.
> 
> ...



But that doesn't change the hierarchy at all; it just shows more characters not using their full power outright. In Gaara's case, he freaked out after Sasuke injured him and their fight was interrupted. When Sasuke caught up to him again, Gaara was driven further over the edge and began to utilize power we hadn't seen previously.

It's not like he was losing in one situation and then just miraculously won in another; the initial confrontation was only "lost" (if you want to call it that, even though there was no definite conclusion) because Gaara was not at the same power he was when he fought Naruto. So saying Sasuke>Gaara>Naruto>Gaara is flawed, because you may as well be talking about two completely different Gaaras.



> Also  I'd place Sasuke > Lee at that point. Sasuke already has Lee's speed at that point plus the Sharingan.



I can't see CE Sasuke beating CE Lee with Gates. I just...can't.



Complete_Ownage said:


> The Jiraiya/ Orochimaru/ Itachi thing...
> 
> 1) The people who think Itachi is going to stomp, one panel, or destroy orochimaru/Jiraiya or vice versa are either a) trolling b) tards c) off there rocker d) all the above



In other words, you're not even going to entertain the possibility of it happening.

You've essentially shut yourself off to what we've seen in the canon repeatedly (and that is, people taking Itachi lightly and paying dearly for it).

So you are grossly mistaken if you believe you aren't every bit as delusional as the people who take that assumption for granted.



> 2) Itachi being on another level from these two is innacurate
> 
> First off we do not know what exactly took place the first time orochimaru tested itachis power besides those few panels showing orochimaru in a binding genjutsu. All we can conclude at this point in the manga through that encounter and via orochimarus own admission is that Itachi is stronger then him. The second encounter does not need to be discussed since we all know what happened.
> 
> ...



Itachi dispatched Orochimaru easily. Twice. The fact that he used his ultimate technique the second time doesn't change the fact that he did it easily, or at least with clear dominance; Oro's Jutsu was cut down in literally two strokes and then sealed on the third, and Itachi was just like "Got anything else, Sasuke?"



> Jiraiya is not orochimaru and they have different fighting styles and excell at different areas. Fighting technique plays an important role in determining how the matchups will go which tends to be overlooked on this forum.



This line of reasoning doesn't really work unless you can prove that the moveset of one character is significantly more advantageous/disadvantageous against a given opponent than the other's.

That is to say, unless Jiraiya has some big advantage Orochimaru doesn't, or unless Orochimaru has some big disadvantage that Jiraiya doesn't, what happened to one of them should be loosely applicable to the other, under similar circumstances.



> All three of them would roughly be around the same level with Itachi having the slightest advantage over both due to his spiritual items and koto. Nothing suggests or is even linked to Itachi being vastly superior



Itachi can't use Kotoamatsukami, and the two showings of Orochimaru getting his ass stomped like fodder plus the numerous statements (including Sasuke's claim that beating Itachi would be "impossible" for them) indicate a lucid difference between him and Itachi. Jiraiya, effectively being the Naruto to Orochimaru's Sasuke, can easily fall in by default, though we do have actual feats to substantiate this.



Vice said:


> Has no problem hospitalizing Kakashi.



He did that with Tsukuyomi, without actually injuring Kakashi.



> Has no problem with Kisame chopping off Naruto's legs.



Technically, he was the one who interrupted Kisame right as Sasuke showed up.



> Has no problem with the deaths of Asuma and Kurenai.



Kishi never explained that one.



> Has no problem with beating the shit out of Sasuke.



To make Sasuke hate him, yeah.



> Lies about fighting Jiraiya because he was looking out for Konoha.
> 
> Seems legit.



It's possible. It would certainly fit with what we know about his character.

There's just no evidence, unless you count Tobi's offhand comment about Itachi "pretending" to attack Konoha. But that's reaching a bit, to be perfectly honest...



hmph said:


> He's not off guard when he's doing that though, Pain had that thought and got a boot to the head for his trouble.



I'd like to see Jiraiya try kicking Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu away. I really would.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> I'm not sure how Naruto would had won even with something to lose. Lee was too strong, fast, and skilled in base let alone using the gates. Kimimaro pwn'd an army of KN0 Narutos, while a base Lee that was recovering from a spinal injury/surgery was able to fight evenly with him. Naruto's style just wasn't capable of competing against Lee's style. You make a good point though, I'm not denying that.



Naruto could conceivably have tapped the Kyuubi's power like he did when he fought Neji, which boosted his speed to Neji's level and gave him enough power to cancel Kaiten with a punch. That should be enough to steamroll base Lee.

He probably wouldn't be able to deal with the Gates, but you also have to remember that they fought before Naruto had learned Kuchiyose; so again, you may as well be talking about two different Narutos.



> Agreed, but Rikudou and Inari are in two vastly different leagues which comes back to what I was talking about too.



There are less extreme cases where this is true as well, was my point.



> So you're saying that Itachi could fight Kurama to a draw, regardless if  he had help from Kisame or anyone else? THAT'S unbelievable.



Actually, that makes perfect sense if you think of it like:

Itachi hits Kurama with Amaterasu-->Kurama hits Itachi with Bijuudama while burning alive-->Itachi is killed--Kurama burns to death shortly after.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 30, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Sure and the conclusion was that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke at that point. Than at the end of the arc when Sasuke unlocks his MS powers fully we get a statement that indicates their equality.
> 
> Naruto said any future battle, which means they could have fought in their SM and MS incarnations and the result would have been the same. That was the whole point of the thing with when two top notch ninja's clash they can read each others hearts. They were equals at that point.


Kishimoto was clearly hinting to the destined battle rather than a battle at any arbitrary time. But like I said, Naruto admitted to needing Kulama to fight Sasuke with MS Sasuke being portrayed in the background. That equality you speak of only exists in the future battle.



Turrin said:


> Naruto was saying defeating Sasuke required more than just strength, so it was not a matter of strength it was a matter of Naruto lacking the ability to overcome the ideals Sasuke embodied (cycle of hatred). Naruto had to first overcome his own hatred if he were to overcome Sasuke's, hence the waterfalls of truth and showdown with Kurama.


Indeed. He obtained his "_two suns_" _after_ he unlocked KCM, however. Which is kind of my point.



Turrin said:


> As for strength both knew that nether would remain stand still and not accumulate more power. That is why Sasuke went to obtain EMS and Naruto went to master Kurama's powers.


..except even Naruto realises that Sasuke didn't actually see Naruto as an equal just yet. 



Turrin said:


> Yes he does combined their powers. Did you not read the chapters where Naruto uses BM's powers and SM powers at the same time to defeat the Tobi's 6 paths?
> 
> Combines their powers to stop Yonbi:
> Link removed
> ...


I meant it was one or the other. Did one Naruto ever go both KCM and SM at the same time? Not talking about two clones looking left and right.



Turrin said:


> I combine them because they are all the result of 1 power up Naruto has gained, Kurama's chakra. Kishimoto gives separate names to each mangekyo technique, but that doesn't change the fact that they are all the result of 1 power the Mangekyo. The training this entire arc was for Naruto to fully master Kurama, which taming Kurama is just another step on that path.
> 
> It's silly to separate them into two different power ups. Kishi did not separate the training for KCM and BM into two separate arcs. Kishi did not spent time comparing KCM Naruto to MS Sasuke, like he did with SM Naruto and MS Sasuke. Kishi had all of this happen in one arc as the result of of the same training and any future comparisons between Sasuke and a Naruto will be with a Naruto who has both KCM and BM due to mastering Kurama's powers.


For KCM Naruto stole a portion of Kulama's chakra. For BM Kulama's gates were completely opened, giving Naruto access to all of Kulama's chakra. The two modes are named differently and everything. You can't possibly pretend it's one power-up.. that's like saying the Sharingan and MS are the same thing because they are both just magical eye-balls.



Turrin said:


> Before SM Naruto was compared to MS Sasuke. Naruto was being compared to base Sasuke, I.E. the one him, sakura, sai, and yamato fought. It's that Sauske that Naruto talks about how strong he is and trains to catch up to. Naruto had no clue about Kirin or how powerful Sasuke had become in his CS states and Naruto was never compared once to Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> Kirin is also a much different technique from FRS. FRS combines a high level of nature manipulation and shape manipulation, which is much more comparable to Enton Kagatsuchi, which also combines high order shape and nature manipulation. It's also here that Sasuke surpass Itachi's abilities with one of Itachi's jutsu the same way that Naruto surpassed Minato abilities with one of his jutsu. Kirin on the other hand is all about nature manipulation and has nothing to do with shape manipulation and is a totally original creation on Sasuke's part. Yes there is the minor parallel of both being an S-rank elemental ninjutsu, but aside from that Enton Kagatsuchi and FRS are far more comparable in nature and as an accomplishment.
> 
> Except Naruto does not replace SM with KCM. We have seen Naruto use SM alongside KCM this entire arc, so that is just outright false. Also i'm sure the extension of Minato's intentions for Naruto's strength did not simply end at KCM. I'm sure Minato intended for Naruto to become a perfect Jinchuuriki and tame Kurama as a stepping stone to mastering "that jutsu", which was his ultimate power Minato seems to have intended for Naruto, not just KCM or even BM.


Naruto's knowledge is irrelevant. Kirin was clearly hinted at back then. Look, they are both S-class Jutsu of their nature types though. Naruto brought Rasengan further and Sasuke brought Chidori further. The main characters progress as a pair, it's way more natural than trying to link FRS to Enton.. a power-up that's absorbed into MS.

Naruto uses SM to sometimes sense stuff and to replenish chakra and for an occasional opponent. In almost all cases KCM is preferred for combat, however. SM is clearly taking a back seat.






UltimateDeadpool said:


> True.
> 
> The problem here is that Naruto wanted to surpass ALL Hokages, not just  Minato. Not only that, but it seems that Orochimaru is actually far more  powerful than people previously believed.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke does not correlate to SM Naruto. MS Sasuke and SM Naruto  were stated to be equals, they also got those power-ups at the same  time. Naruto got Rasenshuriken, Sasuke got Hebi abilities. Naruto got  Sage Mode, Sasuke got Mangekyou Sharingan. Then it was revealed that  Naruto did not surpass Minato, and Sasuke did not surpass Orochimaru.


Yes, he wished to surpass all the Hokage, however, most notably Minato at that point. He reached at Minato's head specifically rather than all Hokage heads after all.

Naruto admitted he needed Kulama's chakra to fight Sasuke with a picture of MS Sasuke in the background. The equality only exists in their destined future battle which Kishimoto was teasing.


----------



## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

Complete Ownage, you can neg me until my rep bar is red...

...but it makes zero sense that Itachi would estimate Jiraiya could take out he and Kisame W/ back-up, yet leave Kisame to cover his back as he goes use a chakra intensive technique.

Then for Kisame to ask him why he needs to retreat? If it was because of 'Big Bad Jiraiya', I think Kisame wouldn't need to ask that question, and if he did, Itachi would mention Naruto's guardian as at least ONE reason.

Not a word about the dude. 

As I said, Itachi couldn't have possibly known Naruto's level since he had been away from the village for about five years...

...but after realizing Naruto was a weakling - which exactly what he said after they while they were retreating - Kisame was enough to cover his back while he f'ed up Sasuke. 

But, of course, this opinion is completely illogical and warranted a neg.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 30, 2012)

I don't know why some people are arguing that Minato and Itachi are not surpassed yet...
If SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato then logically MS Sasuke surpassed Itachi and Orochimaru.
Sasuke don't need EMS to surpass Itachi...

That means the gap between them are not big.
The Gap between Hashirama/Madara and Minato/Itachi is really big.

EMS Sasuke will surpass EMS Madara and BM Naruto will surpass Hashirama.

EMS and BM represent the maximum power of the Elder Son(Madara) and Younger Son(Hashirama).
So, I don't think Sasuke and Naruto will gain any other power-ups.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

The only individual(s) in this manga who would defeat Kisame and Itachi simultaneously is a Rinnegan user. 

There is simply no way Jiraiya power is so monstrous that Itachi and Kisame could only hope to draw. That is the power of the Kyuubi or a Rinnegan user...

I find it funny that you dudes claim Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level, yet do not see the problem with he and Kisame - an extremely powerful shinobi, with bijuu level chakra - only being able to draw with him, AT BEST. 

LOL!


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> The only individual(s) in this manga who would defeat Kisame and Itachi simultaneously is a Rinnegan user.
> 
> There is simply no way Jiraiya power is so monstrous that Itachi and Kisame could only hope to draw. That is the power of the Kyuubi or a Rinnegan user...
> 
> ...



Kisame admitted that he's no match for Jiraiya and had no disagreement about not being able to tip the battle. This is especially true because natural energy alone is Kisame's kryptonite, not to mention that he can't even use his Shark Dance with Itachi in the way. If he does, the fight instantly becomes 1-on-1. 

Kishimoto made the same claim for Sage Naruto vs. Pein, saying that characters like Gai would only get in Naruto's way.


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## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> The only individual(s) in this manga who would defeat Kisame and Itachi simultaneously is a Rinnegan user.



Edo Madara and Hashirama, everyone else would be defeated.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

I'll say this and I'm done: 

I'm far more open to the idea that Itachi and Jiraiya are the same level than I am that Itachi was referring to Jiraiya instead of Kyuubi.

It makes zero sense. 

As I said, even if Itachi wasn't going to take Naruto back anyway, for appearances, it  made sense to separate Naruto and Jiraiya. The Kyuubi alone would provide enough of a challenge...

...you toss in Jiraiya and it could get very ugly. Now, Itachi and ESPECIALLY Kisame, could not have known Naruto's level. When they retreated, Itachi said that because of Naruto's level, there was no need to rush. Well, he didn't know Naruto's level until he got there.

As I said, if you are of the mind that Jiraiya and Itachi are close in power, then even you can't believe he, Kisame, and backup would only AT BEST draw with him. 

Jiraiya is powerful, but he has not been portrayed as so powerful that Itachi couldn't compete with him solo. Sorry, that has not been the case. 

Jiraiya >= half of Akatsuki or more? 

That's ludicrous. 

I have doubts that anyone not named Rikudou could pull off defeating multiple Akatsuki  members, including Kisame and Itachi. Maybe Edo Madara, and the First. Naruto and Sasuke down the line...

...but they aren't doing that right now.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Complete Ownage, you can neg me until my rep bar is red...
> 
> ...but it makes zero sense that Itachi would estimate Jiraiya could take out he and Kisame W/ back-up, yet leave Kisame to cover his back as he goes use a chakra intensive technique.
> 
> ...



You negged me first without debating...Easy to hide behind negs

Anyways, the translations have been beaten to death over the past few years. As someone posted in this thread there is multiple translations stating they were talking about Jiraiya.

I however will give credit to both sides of the argument since they both bring up good points and sound correct from both angles if used properly

Its called a hyperbole or common sense:
1) Itachi & kisame would wreck the hell out of Jiraiya which sounds like there talking about the fox's power

2) So they were sent on a mission to capture the Kyuubi but ran away because of the Kyuubi when one MIGHT have the power to control the fox with MS and the other who  easily captures Jins and bijuus for the lolz

Both make no sense but i will take the translators(multiple) conclusion over your opionon


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

Why is Nagato even being mentioned here
This is major disrespect to the man. Don't mention Nagato in the same conservation as the Sannin, thanks. He's blatantly superior to them, I don't even know where to begin on this...


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## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Why is Nagato even being mentioned here
> This is major disrespect to the man. Don't mention Nagato in the same conservation as the Sannin, thanks. He's blatantly superior to them, I don't even know where to begin on this...



But they're on the same level.


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## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> BM Naruto will be stomped by Perfect Susano'o but it doesn't matter.



i love how you arbitrarily just assume that perfect susanno isn't completely atomized by a full BM bijuu ball. 

mind if i ask what exactly leads you to believe that?(this oughta be good,grabs popcorn)


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> But they're on the same level.



More like Nagato is a level above.


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## hmph (Jul 30, 2012)

> i love how you arbitrarily just assume that perfect susanno isn't completely atomized by a full BM bijuu ball.
> 
> mind if i ask what exactly leads you to believe that?(this oughta be good,grabs popcorn)



Well, Madara said the power of the Bijuu could match perfect Susano'o, and we know Naruto and Sasuke will end up close, and we know Senju > Uchiha, so clearly Sasuke should win.


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

> i love how you arbitrarily just assume that perfect susanno isn't completely atomized by a full BM bijuu ball.


I love how you assume that _it is _going to atomize it.



> mind if i ask what exactly leads you to believe that?(this oughta be good,grabs popcorn)


Skeleton Susano-o tanked Kirin, which busted the Uchiha large hills. Those things were close to small mountain. Not on Bijuu-dama level, but it was fucking skeleton Susano-o.

If its size is proportional to it's defensive capabilities than it tanks the Bijuu-dama.



> More like Nagato is a level above.



More like 2 levels above the Sannin.


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## Danzio (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> ...but it makes zero sense that Itachi would estimate Jiraiya could take out he and Kisame W/ back-up, yet leave Kisame to cover his back as he goes use a chakra intensive technique.
> 
> Then for Kisame to ask him why he needs to retreat? If it was because of 'Big Bad Jiraiya', I think Kisame wouldn't need to ask that question, and if he did, Itachi would mention Naruto's guardian as at least ONE reason.
> 
> ...



You have to argue with Itachi not the people who merely read the manga.

It makes absolutely no sense that they were talking about kid Naruto/kyuubi. The stronger the beast is, the stronger Kisame gets, which means Kisame would take up the challenge with a smile on his face. It is literally a cake walk for him considering Naruto had no control over Kurama nor did Naruto himself present any danger at all, as an individual. In fact, Kisame is better suited than Itachi when it comes to this even if Naruto had some control due to it being the perfect match up- unless Itachi can somehow control the fox which would make the whole thing much sillier since Itachi could subdue/suppress the fox without there being any casualties. 

You don't have to take my words for it:



> Originally Posted by Gottheim .
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Originally Posted by ShounenSuki
> 
> If they were on any level apprehensive about Naruto's strength, they wouldn't have knocked on his door and asked him to come with them. They'd have found a far better way to capture him.
> 
> ...


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I love how you assume that _it is _going to atomize it.
> 
> Skeleton Susano-o tanked Kirin, which busted the Uchiha large hills. Those things were close to small mountain. Not on Bijuu-dama level, but it was fucking skeleton Susano-o.
> 
> ...




#1 was playing devil's advocate by presenting the exact same opposite conclusion.

#2 was it skeleton susanno? and i think you need to readjust what the term "tank" means. unless tank means having the strongest defense completely obliterated and visual damage to the person in the defense all of a sudden means tank.


tanking an attack is taking it with 0 damage, usually not even reacting to it.not even needing to defend against it.

for a true "tank" think perfect cell taking SS vegeta's point blank full power kick to the head.


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

Okay is it not a stretch to assume that Kisame was telling the truth but Itachi was lying to avoid conflict?
Kisame said that Itachi may be able to handle him based on what he knows of Itachi, but Itachi made the remark that they'd both just end up dead so when push came to shove they would just run instead of hurting another Konoha shinobi.

And Kisame's comments are most likely ignorant of the fact that Itachi has Susano-o, as even Zetsu didn't know of it until he saw the fight.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

Translators obviously disagree about who they're talking about. Obviously that is the case considering we thought they were talking Jiraiya all these years.

In any case, I've seen Jiraiya fight, and I have seen nothing that suggests Kisame, Itachi, and back-up are going to draw with him.

It's like ... on what planet is that realistic? 

That sounds like some god-like beast of a shinobi, yet Itachi turns his back on this guy to use one of his most chakra intensive jutsu, and then dismiss him as an obstacle when asked about why he retreated?

Whatever.

You all can have this.

I'll accept that Minato is > Itachi. All I have is hype, but I'll accept that. I'll accept that Nagato > Itachi. Whatever. What I will not accept that Itachi can AT BEST draw with Jiraiya even with help. 

I wish I had seen THAT Jiraiya fight instead of the one in the manga.


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## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

> I'll accept that Minato is > Itachi.



Divin I am disappoint.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> Divin I am disappoint.



I didn't say I believe it...

...I said I'd accept that over Jiraiya is >= Itachi, Kisame, and backup.

Only a character of truly transcendent power is pulling THAT off in this  manga.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

"only an uchiha can defeat me" itachi

since we are using obvious lying comments from back in part 1. then i guess itachi is near invincible.

this is why the forums fight so much. haters complain how itachi is so overrated but then they go on about how itachi, kisame and back up could only tie to jiraiya

this is the only forum i know that even considers jiraiya as itachi's equal. most people know that itachi is above jiraiya. story importance wise, strength wise, popularity wise itachi is just above jiraiya


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## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

Why are we so behind guys? Why does such a large portion of this forum think Jiraiya >= Itachi, Kisame and backup? Why?

Every other forum is arguing whether Itachi = Nagato or not. You guys are dragging us down and make us look like we're stuck in the past.


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

If anyone is taking the comment seriously you'd have to assume that Jiraiya>Itachi and Kisame.


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## Rain (Jul 30, 2012)

Itachi is at least whole tier or two above any of the sannin and in the same tier with Minato and Nagato. 
I'd say he is weaker than Nagato but definitely stronger than Minato.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 30, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'll accept that Minato is > Itachi.



Well said 

Repped.


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## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> this is the only forum i know that even considers jiraiya as itachi's equal. most people know that itachi is above jiraiya. story importance wise, strength wise, popularity wise itachi is just above jiraiya



really? so popularity wise is the deciding factor? perhaps the majority of people on "other"forums are just as retarded for itachi and jiraiya as those on this forum.

strength wise? the essence of that argument is really a matter of opinion.as jiraiya and itachi have never actually fought. it all comes down to personal interpretation and personal bias.

story wise? you're fn kidding me right? jiraiya is the main contributing factor to the type of man naruto wants to be,how he strives to live his life and what he believes in.

the same goes for sasuke with itachi. in the story aspect they are equally important in the influence of  both naruto's and sasuke's development and ideals. they are both equally important,each in their own way,to both Naruto's  and Sasuke's nindo.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> story wise? you're fn kidding me right? jiraiya is the main contributing factor to the type of man naruto wants to be,how he strives to live his life and what he believes in.



no, that's Minato. Jiraiya was his teacher. End of

It's been established fact that Naruto wants to be a hokage and surpass Minato since part 1


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

Itachi is more relevant than Jiraiya story wise. I would've said otherwise if he stayed dead as a villain, but I can't honestly say that any longer.
As is Orochimaru.

Jiraiya is more relevant than Nagato, but that doesn't mean much anyways.


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## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Danzio said:


> BLABLABLABLABLA



Your whole post is a joke, but the translations you quoted, well lol, Jiraiya's name is not even mentioned, it's always "him" so your "sources" are fanboys and not neutrals, VIZ translation make it clear enought.

First they talk about "him" and next panel they keep talking about "him" and his babysitter the legendary sannin, you and your friends can keep living in Denial as much as you want.


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## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> no, that's Minato. Jiraiya was his teacher. End of
> 
> It's been established fact that Naruto wants to be a hokage and surpass Minato since part 1



thats his goal,its not about who he is as a person. i guess you really don't understand about the "book" do you.

it was so inspiring minato named his son after the MC,and wished for him to be that type of person. the book which was basically jiraiya's ideals and beliefs put into print.

after naruto read it, it reaffirmed what he was already beginning to believe,and gave him the ideals to strive for.that's why he quoted it.

i bet you're one of the ones who don't get the context involved with nagato's change of heart after the so-called book-no-jutsu and just say it's an illogical ass pull.


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## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Your whole post is a joke, but the translations you quoted, well lol, Jiraiya's name is not even mentioned, it's always "him" so your "sources" are fanboys and not neutrals, VIZ translation make it clear enought.
> 
> First they talk about "him" and next panel they keep talking about "him" and his babysitter the legendary sannin, you and your friends can keep living in Denial as much as you want.



Would you be so kind to post Viz translation ? It seems that you're the one who lives in denial


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Yeah, you could tell Itachi and Kisame were so threatened by Kyuubi by the way that Kisame effortlessly absorbed Naruto's chakra with Samehada and then proceeded to smile as he claimed he was going to cut off Naruto's legs. Jiraiya shows up and they run, but it was definitely the Kyuubi they were worried about. The same Kyuubi they were sent there to abduct. 

The manga makes it perfectly clear.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Kisame admitted that he's no match for Jiraiya and had no disagreement about not being able to tip the battle. This is especially true because natural energy alone is Kisame's kryptonite, not to mention that he can't even use his Shark Dance with Itachi in the way. If he does, the fight instantly becomes 1-on-1.



Wait, how would Kisame know about the properties of natural energy?



> Kishimoto made the same claim for Sage Naruto vs. Pein, saying that characters like Gai would only get in Naruto's way.



That's BS though; Gai would have wrecked Pain's shit while Tendou's powers were inactive. At the very least, he could have been excellent support for Naruto.

He's fucking fighting Rinnegan Tobi and Gedou Mazou now (in base form, no less). And we're expected to believe he would only be a liability against Pain? Pfft.


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## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Yeah, you could tell Itachi and Kisame were so threatened by Kyuubi by the way that Kisame effortlessly absorbed Naruto's chakra with Samehada and then proceeded to smile as he claimed he was going to cut off Naruto's legs. Jiraiya shows up and they run, but it was definitely the Kyuubi they were worried about. The same Kyuubi they were sent there to abduct.
> 
> The manga makes it perfectly clear.


Logic is not allowed here


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## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

Itachi was lying. He was trying to avoid conflict. 
Kisame was telling the truth, but he didn't have an accurate depiction of Itachi's strength due to his lack of knowledge on Susano-o.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

Jiraiya doesn't even stand a chance against Gai.


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

Niether does Itachi


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> That's BS though; Gai would have wrecked Pain's shit while Tendou's powers were inactive. At the very least, he could have been excellent support for Naruto.



one question. do you understand in what way gai or anyone else "would get in naruto's way"?


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> really? so popularity wise is the deciding factor? perhaps the majority of people on "other"forums are just as retarded for itachi and jiraiya as those on this forum.
> 
> strength wise? the essence of that argument is really a matter of opinion.as jiraiya and itachi have never actually fought. it all comes down to personal interpretation and personal bias.
> 
> ...



no, popularity wise is not the decisive factor. but in any manga it is always a factor considering *some* manga creators place certain characters over another by also observing their popularity. the fact that itachi is more popular than jiraiya and that kishi likes itachi as a character more than he does jiraiya (fact) it *could* be something important to think about when comparing the two

*strength wise*: i guess this is basically what the whole thread is about and personally i believe itachi is stronger. i also believe the respect the other top tiers give to itachi is worthy of more praise than that given to jiraiya. so it also seems like the characters in the manga also believe itachi is stronger. 

i also haven't seen any feats from jiraiya that would allow me to believe he is above or even equal to itachi.

*story importance wise:* it is very obvious they are both really important characters to the manga. but i would still place itachi slightly above jiraiya in story importance because itachi has affected the manga in more ways then jiraiya ever did.

jiraiya was naruto's second benchmark after kakashi. he was like itachi's mentor. but other than helping naruto become who he is today, all he is, is a very powerful and important character. jiraiya's biggest accomplishment was creating the beasts like minato and nagato, finding nagato's weakness. but other than raising children of prophecy he has been mostly an inactive spy.

itachi molded sasuke into what he is today which also changed all of konoha. killed the uchiha clan stopping wars. stopping major villains atleast temporarily. changing naruto's morals. having the blood of the uchiha clan which is the main antagonists of this whole manga. being the one to introduce the true power of the uchiha and MS like 10 times. stopping edos and incapacitating the strongest characters in a war. having close contact with the organization that could destroy the entire world forcing them to hold back. 

really unless you attribute all of minato and nagato's feats to jiraiya, story wise itachi has done a lot more.


*if you turn the statement the other way. itachi vs jiraiya, kisame + any back up that also would make no sense and would be a lie by itachi. so while some people think it is itachi fans who are wanking itachi above jiraiya it is really jiraiya fans/itachi haters who are making the ridiculous claims that itachi, kisame + back up could only tie*


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

@ eyeknockout. its not about benchmarks,or who did what feats. what i am talking about is how they respectively influenced and mentored the core personalities of their respective charges. which take away powers and feats and the such and get to the core of who they are as people,what is their ethos,what beliefs do they live by, what they aspire to and who /what type of person do they aspire to be.

that is where itachi and jiraiya's true importance to the story and to the characters that i was alluding to. and in that respect they are equally important and equally the major factor to what shaped the beliefs which in turn shapes the actions of both characters.

the way i was trying to get across,is truly the definition of looking underneath the underneath.

the how (jutsus,powers,strengths,plot actions) is irrelevant ,the WHY is what i'm talking about in my previous post.

i hope that clarifies what im trying to get at.


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



exactly, to all the ones claiming itachi and jiraiya are equal because the itachi, kisame + back up statement was made are severly insulting kisame

it's basically like saying; a rhino (itachi) + an ant (kisame)+ an undefined number of any type of being (back up) =< a rhino

basically calling kisame fodder saying he can't make a difference, when he already proved himself by defeating killer bee who is a ninja arguably greater than jiraiya


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

> the way i was trying to get across,is truly the definition of looking underneath the underneath.



You are so arrogant. What makes you think you can look underneath the underneath and "understand" Kishimoto?


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



Yet according to them Jiraiya solo's both.


----------



## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Would you be so kind to post Viz translation ? It seems that you're the one who lives in denial







In before "him" and "his babysitter" are the same entity.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> You are so arrogant. What makes you think you can look underneath the underneath and "understand" Kishimoto?



you are the last person that should EVER accuse anyone of arrogance.

when i wish to address you i'll let you know.but honestly i'll never bother to because your limited understanding and/or blatant ignorance isn't worth the effort.

i was actually trying to explain what i'm trying to present to members that actually think and understand and are open to actual intelligent conversation and the presenting and explaining of differing POV.

and BTW its a freaking manga,not real hard to understand(for most people)and there is this small thing called reading COMPREHENSION. look it up, cause you obviously have none.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> you are the last person that should EVER accuse anyone of arrogance.
> 
> when i wish to address you i'll let you know.but honestly i'll never bother to because your limited understanding and/or blatant ignorance isn't worth the effort.
> 
> ...



You just typed up around 11 lines as an ad hominem attack against me  because you couldn't answer my question.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> You just typed up around 11 lines as an ad hominem attack against me  because you couldn't answer my question.



actually i did answer you,but (surprise,surprise) i guess you didn't understand it.


----------



## King Scoop (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



So true. I think Kisame alone would stand a good chance against Jiraiya. If you put him against Kisame and Itachi....well you saw what happened to Nagato right? Let the powerhouses go at it and wait for your opening.


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> In before "him" and "his babysitter" are the same entity.



The first "Him" was about Jiraiya
Second "Him" - Naruto"
"His" about Jiraiya again

Not that hard

I mean, why would Kisame, the man who took on the 8-tails with no problem at all say that part 1 Naruto is in a different league than him when he was about to chop his legs off ?


----------



## Danzio (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Your whole post is a joke, but the translations you quoted, well lol, Jiraiya's name is not even mentioned, it's always "him" so your "sources" are fanboys and not neutrals, VIZ translation make it clear enought.
> 
> First they talk about "him" and next panel they keep talking about "him" and his babysitter the legendary sannin, you and your friends can keep living in Denial as much as you want.



Dat reading comprehension 

I really wonder how you get through reading the manga each and every week, because when you can’t even put things in its proper context, and you’re actually not only arguing against common sense, logic, etc. but also the translators who translated the Databooks for us (plus help out here and on naruwiki ).You’re arguing against the japanese people who one of them used as a source so imagine the irony when you mention a joke and a post in the same sentence . 

Btw, I’m not discussing whether Itachi had ulterior motives or not.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

How F*cking stupid do you have to be not to get what is going on...

1) Multiple translators suggest and indicate they were talking about Jiraiya. Do both sides of the debate make sense when used property? Yes, however translations > your biased opinion. 

If the translators suggest they were talking about Kurama then you would just have the other fandom doing the same thing.

2) Anyone who thinks Jiraiya stands a chance against Itachi & kisame let alone with back up is obviously biased or dumb. You have to take that statement for what it is just like numerous other statements such as amaterasu is hot as the sun and etc

Some of you people take your favorite characters to seriously its almost sickening that you can't accept facts. It's almost to the point where if someone said in the manga that they heard someone could shoot rainbow colored ponies out there ass you would believe it


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> one question. do you understand in what way gai or anyone else "would get in naruto's way"?



No. In fact, I would really like to see someone explain that one to me.

'Cause from where I'm standing, it looks like Gai just fought a bunch of V2 Jinchuuriki, some Bijuu, Gedou Mazou, and Rinnegan Tobi all either in base form or with less than 5 Gates.

So if someone could explain to me how in the fuck he would be a hindrance against Pain, that would actually impress the hell out of me.


----------



## Shattering (Jul 30, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> The first "Him" was about Jiraiya
> Second "Him" - Naruto"
> "His" about Jiraiya again
> 
> ...



Because it was part1? some you think that Kishi has everything in mind since the start.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> some you think that Kishi has everything in mind since the start.



Irony               .


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Because it was part1? some you think that Kishi has everything in mind since the start.



So part 1 is irrelevant now 

He ate Naruto's chakra and was about to chope his legs off . Why would he go on to say that Naruto is in a different league than him ? 

Answer this without saying it's part 1 and you'll know they we're actually talking about Jiraiya


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

What I want to know is how SM Naruto can even touch Hebi Sasuke.


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> The first "Him" was about Jiraiya
> Second "Him" - Naruto"
> "His" about Jiraiya again
> 
> ...



why would kisame, the man who took on the 8-tails with 
minor problems say jiraiya is in another league?

answering your question with another question


----------



## Danzio (Jul 30, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> So part 1 is irrelevant now
> 
> He ate Naruto's chakra and was about to chope his legs off . Why would he go on to say that Naruto is in a different league than him ?
> 
> Answer this without saying it's part 1 and you'll know they we're actually talking about Jiraiya



He will probably answer with Itachi solo's.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Some people actually think Kisame can handle Kyuubi. 

It took the life of hundreds of shinobi's, Minato's, Kushina's and the strength of the 3rd Hokage just to stop it. This Kyuubi alone took down 5 Bijuu.

Think before you post people, this is the Kyuubi were talking about here.


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> why would kisame, the man who took on the 8-tails with
> minor problems say jiraiya is in another league?
> 
> answering your question with another question



Because Kisame is a bad match-up against jinchuurikis ?

But hey, Gai is stronger than Killer Bee because he fodderized Kisame


----------



## Rios (Jul 30, 2012)

Never forget


----------



## eyeknockout (Jul 30, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Because Kisame is a bad match-up against jinchuurikis ?
> 
> But hey, Gai is stronger than Killer Bee because he fodderized Kisame



no, kisame is also well suited against jiraiya since jiraiya is a ninja who also relies on his huge chakra pool. he would have to fight long distance against kisame which actually isn't the greatest idea since allowing kisame to spit out waterdomes and attack with thousands of water sharks is a bad idea. atleast killer bee was keeping up the intensity by fighting close range. jiraiya could do that too, but he would only be weakening himself and strengthening kisame.

...the fact that i can see a good fight between kisame and jiraiya already shows itachi, kisame + back up =< jiraiya makes no sense


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks Rios.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Rios said:


> Never forget



Gag scene. If Itachi wasn't such a boring mary sue, he'd probably have a couple too.


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 30, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> no, kisame is also well suited against jiraiya since jiraiya is a ninja who also relies on his huge chakra pool. he would have to fight long distance against kisame which actually isn't the greatest idea since allowing kisame to spit out waterdomes and attack with thousands of water sharks is a bad idea. atleast killer bee was keeping up the intensity by fighting close range. jiraiya could do that too, but he would only be weakening himself and strengthening kisame.
> 
> ...the fact that i can see a good fight between kisame and jiraiya already shows itachi, kisame + back up =< jiraiya makes no sense



Kisame would have died in the frog stomach if it weren't for Itachi 

That's as canon as Itachi fodderizing Orochimaru


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Wait, how would Kisame know about the properties of natural energy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He probably doesn't, but my point still stands. 

I actually agree with you, I was saying the same thing a couple years back when Pein's and SM Naruto's hype were at their all-time high. I was just using that as an example of Kishimoto's plot power. 
And for the record, while I believe what Kishimoto wrote about Kisame being Jiraiya's inferior and Itachi being Jiraiya's equal, I do think that them working together have good chances of beating Jiraiya. The problem is that the fight could play out like in did in the hallway, Jiraiya almost one-shotted Kisame, substantiating what Itachi said just a little while before that. Kisame might be a liability to Itachi. 



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



Kisame said that he's no match for Jiraiya, that Jiraiya is in a whole other league, and he was actually saved by Itachi. 

Jiraiya > Kisame > Bee. It's pretty simple using your logic. 



X Itachi X said:


> Yet according to them Jiraiya solo's both.



Take it up with Kishimoto if you don't like it. I also love how hypocritical all of you are, cherry picking what you like and disregarding the rest. 

A long time ago I've realized that Itachi fans use that statement in  arguments concerning Itachi all the time to try to discredit their  opposition, saying that we're the ones who say Jiraiya >  Itachi+Kisame, when in fact you're the ones saying it.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jul 30, 2012)

How can people not understand the difference between SM Naruto vs Nagato going Mano e Mano and Gai playing a supportive role alongside, Kakashi, Killer B, and BM Naruto, I think the minute  they saw Naruto clones one shotting Kages it was safe to assume Gai was in pretty good hands, and this is war, the whole alliance fighting side by side at all cost.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

> Kisame said that he's no match for Jiraiya, that Jiraiya is in a whole other league, and he was actually saved by Itachi.
> 
> Jiraiya > Kisame > Bee. It's pretty simple using your logic.



When the fuck did I even hint at that? You're lying.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> When the fuck did I even hint at that? You're lying.



What was the point of you saying Kisame > Bee?


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> What was the point of you saying Kisame > Bee?



Did I even mean that? He's the perfect counter to Bee.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> Did I even mean that? He's the perfect counter to Bee.



Let's have a reminder of what you said:



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



So, what was the meaning of that post if you weren't saying Kisame > Bee? I also didn't see anything in there saying that Kisame was the perfect counter, just that Kisame "took a shit" on Bee.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Let's have a reminder of what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what was the meaning of that post if you weren't saying Kisame > Bee? I also didn't see anything in there saying that Kisame was the perfect counter, just that Kisame "took a shit" on Bee.



I said Kisame DEFEATED Bee. I didn't say whether Kisame was actually better overall than Bee or not.

Will you PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth?


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> I said Kisame DEFEATED Bee. I didn't say whether Kisame was actually better overall than Bee or not.
> 
> Will you PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth?



You didn't say "Defeated" Bee, and you did infact say that Kisame was better. Let's look again at what you posted:



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



How many ways are there to interpret "Kisame shit all over Bee"? Hmm?


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> You didn't say "Defeated" Bee, and you did infact say that Kisame was better. Let's look again at what you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> How many ways are there to interpret "Kisame shit all over Bee"? Hmm?



...........I'm being told what I meant by someone else.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> ...........I'm being told what I meant by someone else.



We're not mind readers, we can't know that what you ACTUALLY meant by  "Kisame shit on Bee" was that Kisame was the perfect counter to him and  not overall better.



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting *Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee* and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



Looks like _you_ said it.

So, what was the point of that?


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> ...........I'm being told what I meant by someone else.



Just nod, pat them on the head and let them bask in their part I statements prior to Itachi's reveal, Kisame's feats. etc.  Apparently part I statements > Part II feats and knowledge.


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> We're not mind readers, we can't know that what you ACTUALLY meant by  "Kisame shit on Bee" was that Kisame was the perfect counter to him and  not overall better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why did Kisame *take a shit* on Killer Bee?

*Because he was a perfect counter to him.*

You're putting words in my mouth and you're actually outright lying to my face. You're disrespectful and just awful to reply to in general.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Just nod, pat them on the head and let them bask in their part I statements prior to Itachis reveal, Kisame's feats. etc.  Apparently part I statements > Part II feats and knowledge.



So he _didn't_ say that Kisame shits on Bee? 

Itachi's reveal means nothing, Kisame knew what he was capable of when he said he was no match, Jiraiya can beat Nagato.

I love how hypocritical you lot are, when you're the ones that use hype from pt. 1 just like everyone else.



Seph said:


> Why did Kisame *take a shit* on Killer Bee?
> 
> *Because he was a perfect counter to him.*
> 
> You're putting words in my mouth and you're actually outright lying to  my face. You're disrespectful and just awful to reply to in  general.



So, where in your post does it say that Kisame was the perfect counter?  Why did you mention Kisame shitting on Bee in this topic?

Here, I'll post it again if I missed anything: 



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting *Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee* and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



So, what was the point of this post?


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

> So, where in your post does it say that Kisame was the perfect counter? Why did you mention Kisame shitting on Bee in this topic?



Where in my post does it say Kisame wasn't the perfect counter?


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> Where in my post does it say Kisame wasn't the perfect counter?



Hmm, let's see...



Seph said:


> The Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters are so deluded that  they're not only insulting Itachi, but also insulting Kisame, who took a  shit on Killer Bee and even Itachi's backup. Come on guys.



No where.

So, what was the point of that post?


----------



## Seph (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Hmm, let's see...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That Kisame is worthy of respect for taking out Killer Bee.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

Seph said:


> That Kisame is worthy of respect for taking out Killer Bee.



Thank you, finally.

I agree, but Jiraiya is also worthy of respect which he is not getting in this thread.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Jul 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Thank you, finally.
> 
> I agree, but Jiraiya is also worthy of respect which he is not getting in this thread.



We're all giving Jiraya his respect. As one of the Sannin

Nothing in the manga even suggest that Jiraya is whole another tier then Orochimaru. Neither feats nor hype


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> We're all giving Jiraya his respect. As one of the Sannin
> 
> Nothing in the manga even suggest that Jiraya is whole another tier then Orochimaru. Neither feats nor hype



His fight with Pain suggests he's a lot closer to Itachi than you guys would ever admit.

Orochimaru has rarely ever been at full strength in this manga either.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Kishi planned Naruto's and Sasuke's journey from the start. He clearly draws many parallels between characters, some are forced by fans (Jiraiya and Itachi's.)

Naruto Objective - Surpass All the Hokage - The Panel aimed at Minato
Sasuke Objective - Kill Itachi 
>This draws a parallel between Itachi and Minato

-Naruto trains under a Sannin named Jiraiya (Gets defeated by Nagato who turns out to be Naruto's opponent. Naruto uses SM (Jiraiya's power) to fight Nagato)
-Sasuke trains under a Sannin named Orochimaru (Gets defeated by Itachi who turns out to be Sasuke's opponent. Sasuke uses CS (Orochimaru's power) to fight Itachi)
>This draws parallel between Jiraiya and Orochimaru who had the same story line for the two main character.
>This also draws parallel between Itachi and Nagato, both were the opponent of Sasuke and Naruto. Who both used their Sannin master's power to fight them. 

Sannin Master -- Family Member -- Legendary Figures
Jiraiya/Orochimaru -- Minato/Nagato/Itachi -- Madara/Hashirama

This is what Kishi planned from the start from story perspective and this can be used to determine the difference in their power levels.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Here's the deal: Jiraiya is a lot closer to Itachi than Itachi is to Nagato.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Here's the deal: Jiraiya is a lot closer to Itachi than Itachi is to Nagato.



The manga disagrees, a clear parallel was drawn between Itachi and Nagato. 

Kabuto also placed them two together when he summoned 30 Edo Zombies. They can do anything when they are placed together.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The manga disagrees, a clear parallel was drawn between Itachi and Nagato.
> 
> Kabuto also placed them two together when he summoned 30 Edo Zombies. They can do anything when they are placed together.



The manga also suggests it took three of the strongest characters in the manga just to defeat Nagato.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Here's the deal: Jiraiya is a lot closer to Itachi than Itachi is to Nagato.



Kishi revived Itachi and Nagato, placed them together, said they could do anything etc.  Gave them both powerful eyes.  How's he closer to Jiraiya at all?  And what's that got to do with anything?

He didn't revive Jiraiya at all


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> He didn't revive Jiraiya



And here you are suggesting it was for reasons other than what was blatantly explained.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> The manga also suggests it took three of the strongest characters in the manga just to defeat Nagato.



Incorrect. Manga did not suggest that at all.

-Naruto and Killer Bee was defeated by Nagato in seconds. 
-Manga portrayed Itachi as the savior when he saved them both. 
-Nagato CT would have one shotted both Naruto and Killer Bee if it wasn't for Itachi's quick thinking. 
-Itachi didn't need Naruto or Killer Bee's assistance to defeat Nagato, he instead *used them* to destroy CT. Itachi has absolutely 0 knowledge on how much power it will take to destroy CT. He took the safe option by giving Naruto and Killer Bee something to do instead of making them watch him solo the shit out of Nagato. 

Itachi was the clear MVP of that match, he did majority of the work, even the thinking/analytical part. The manga showed Itachi as the superior fighter, he blinded Nagato from a blind spot and figured out the shared vision in a matter of second that have took Jiraiya and his frogs couple of chapters to figure out. This was complete Nagato, much stronger than the 3-4 Pain's Jiraiya faced. But that fight ended in one chapter thanks to Itachi.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 30, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> We're all giving Jiraya his respect. As one of the Sannin
> 
> Nothing in the manga even suggest that Jiraya is whole another tier then Orochimaru. Neither feats nor hype



Even without arms it has just recently been said that Orochimaru's a threat to even EMS Sasuke and Edo Tensei makes him invincible. So that's a lot of hype for Jiraiya. 

Jiraiya could had beat Nagato. Nagato solo'd an entire village and it took Naruto, Bee, and Itachi to defeat him. In Base Mode, Jiraiya beat KN4 without killer intent. 



Vice said:


> And here you are suggesting it was for reasons other than what was blatantly explained.



Which is what they always do.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Incorrect. Manga did not suggest that at all.
> 
> -Naruto and Killer Bee was defeated by Nagato in seconds.
> -Manga portrayed Itachi as the savior when he saved them both.
> ...



This isn't blatant Itachi wank at all.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 30, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Kishimoto was clearly hinting to the destined battle rather than a battle at any arbitrary time. But like I said,


Kishi was also clearly hinting that they were equals at that moment, with the whole we have both become top class ninja and if we fight we will die. Yes it was hint at what will go down in their future fight because we know Sasuke and Naruto will become equals at that time as well, but it was also to stress their current equality.



> Naruto admitted to needing Kulama to fight Sasuke with MS Sasuke being portrayed in the background.


And Sasuke admitted to needing EMS to fight Naruto. They both came away from their clash respecting each others power enough where they wanted greater power to face one another. 

Sasuke: I want Itachi's eyes
Sasuke: I want them transplanted ASAP.



> That equality you speak of only exists in the future battle.


Naruto: We've become top-class ninjas, Sasuke.
Both of us.

Naruto: Did you see what'll happen?
If we fight again...
Naruto: We're both gonna die.
_*note it does not say if we fight again after future power ups._

Naruto: Remember what I said...we're both top-class ninjas now!

Equality was clearly stressed between them to say otherwise is a denial of cannon and hell the Kabuto fights shows a SM user can handle Sasuke's Mangekyo techniques with SM senses.



> Indeed. He obtained his "two suns" after he unlocked KCM, however. Which is kind of my point.


Which has nothing to do with strength, so it's a moot point to what were discussing. Could SM Naruto convert Sasuke back to the side of good, no he couldn't, but are SM Naruto and MS Sasuke roughly equivalent in strength, yup.



> ..except even Naruto realises that Sasuke didn't actually see Naruto as an equal just yet.


Yes and Sasuke underestimates Naruto, that is the running theme, however he respected Naruto's strength enough where he wanted Itachi's eyes/EMS ASAP!



> I meant it was one or the other. Did one Naruto ever go both KCM and SM at the same time? Not talking about two clones looking left and right.


Wow this is a BS argument. It hardly matters if a clone does it or not. The fact of the matter is Naruto keeps using the powers of SM alongside the powers of KCM/BM. So he did not replace one with the other, he uses both powers via clones. Sasduke on the other hand lost his Hebi/CS powers entirely.



> For KCM Naruto stole a portion of Kulama's chakra. For BM Kulama's gates were completely opened, giving Naruto access to all of Kulama's chakra. The two modes are named differently and everything. You can't possibly pretend it's one power-up..


LOL it is one power up it's all Kurama's chakra. 



> that's like saying the Sharingan and MS are the same thing because they are both just magical eye-balls.


Except with Sharingan - MS we saw a clear evolution of the eyes to a new state. Did Kurama evolve between the time Naruto got KCM and the time he got BM, no he didn't. Instead he Naruto just gained the ability to draw more of Kurama's power. 

It's the same way that right now Sasuke probably isn't drawing out EMS's full power and when he does he'll probably also get a new technique with it's own new name.



> Naruto's knowledge is irrelevant. Kirin was clearly hinted at back then.


It matter because Naruto was being compared to the Sasuke that Team 7 fought, he was not being compared to anything else. 



> look, they are both S-class Jutsu of their nature types though.


Wow if that's how far your argument goes it's so weak.



> Naruto brought Rasengan further and Sasuke brought Chidori further.


Kirin isn't a chidori variant.



> The main characters progress as a pair, it's way more natural than trying to link FRS to Enton.. a power-up that's absorbed into MS.


Completed FRS is absorb into SM since it can only be achieved in SM. You really going to sit here and tell me it's more natural to compare Kirin to FRS just because they are both S-rank elemental ninjutsu LOL. In-fact this in and off it self only applies to 50% FRS, since it is the S-rank jutsu while 100% FRS which is powered by Senjutsu would have no rank just like all of the other Senjutsu techniques. 

Now let's compare SM FRS to MS Enton

1. Both would receive no rank in the DB vs Kirin receiving a rank
2. Both utilize high degrees of shape and nature manipulation, while Kirin only focuses on nature manipulation
3. Naruto's mastering FRS was directly referenced in the manga cannon as him surpassing Minato in rasengan mastery. Sasuke mastering Enton was directly referenced in the manga cannon as him surpassing Itachi in mastery over the black flames. Sasuke mastering Kirin wasn't directly referenced as him surpassing anyone in anything. Your one of the main proponents of Minato and Itachi paralleling so this should be a very meaningful thing for you.
4. Both Enton and FRS depend on SM and MS respectively to work. Sasuke can use Kirin just fine in base.

Sorry but to ignore all of this you'd have to be blind or extremely bias.



> Naruto uses SM to sometimes sense stuff and to replenish chakra and for an occasional opponent. In almost all cases KCM is preferred for combat, however. SM is clearly taking a back seat.


LOL KCM is preferred for combat, yet we directly saw Naruto choose SM over KCM in one of his main battles during the current arc. Than we saw Naruto use SM and BM alongside each other and again SM and KCM alongside each other in another of his major battles during this war arc. If anything SM is preferred over KCM, it's just that it takes Naruto time to enter SM, while he can enter KCM instantly. 

Again this is not even close to the same thing as Sasuke losing his Hebi/CS powers.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> This isn't blatant Itachi wank at all.



Jiraiya is equal to Itachi, Kisame and Back Up.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> And here you are suggesting it was for reasons other than what was blatantly explained.



And here you are quoting half a post.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> He took the safe option by giving Naruto and Killer Bee something to do instead of making them watch him solo the shit out of Nagato.



Holy shit. Why do you even have this whole Kakashi theme going? You obviously have Itachi's juice running down your chin.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Jiraiya is equal to Itachi, Kisame and Back Up.



except in that case it isn't an itachi fan lapping at his nuts,its itachi himself saying something in the manga.

lying,not lying, ulterior motives,truth,theories, etc. all irrelevant.

one is a fan statement, the other is a manga statement spoken by the character himself.

you really don't see a difference between the two?


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> And here you are quoting half a post.



Itachi was paired with Nagato because he has the Sharingan. His magic, dues ex machina eye balls are the only reason his boring ass is even relevant in this manga.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jul 30, 2012)

Well this thread has gone nowhere. Vice, Deadpool, you're arguing with the most ignorant sect of posters on these forums. It's pointless, really.

Some men just want to watch the world tsukuyomi'd.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Itachi was paired with Nagato because he has the Sharingan. His magic, dues ex machina eye balls are the only reason his boring ass is even relevant in this manga.



Except he's:
The main protagonists' rivals brother.
Main reason Edo tensei ended.
Reason for the protagonists' rivals growth.
Reason for the Protagonists' rivals ideals
Reasons for the protagonists' rivals agenda
Reason for Protagonists' 'do everything' change (speech to Naruto)
Allowed for Uchiha Massacre plot to thicken.
A member of Akatsuki etc.

Sure.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Except he's:
> The main protagonists' rivals brother.
> Main reason Edo tensei ended.
> Reason for the protagonists' rivals growth.
> ...



And a mary sue. Don't forget that.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

So now people are saying that Itachi is Nagato level because Kabuto summoned them together

Holy hell 

Muu summoned Madara 

Muu > everyone else since they "traveled together" 
(until madara breaks free and kills muu lolz)


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> And a mary sue. Don't forget that.



And Jiraiya's waterlogged fishbait, your point?


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> And Jiraiya's waterlogged fishbait, your point?



[2]


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Except he's:
> The main protagonists' rivals brother.
> Main reason Edo tensei ended.
> Reason for the protagonists' rivals growth.
> ...



And the Great Toad Sage says one of Jiraiyas students will bring either death or peace to the world.....laughs at all of Itachis works


Seriously... Itachi is incredibly strong no one is denying that but stop playing him up like hes tiers beyond Jiraiya


----------



## αce (Jul 30, 2012)

Okay as much as I hate Itachi he's not really a sue.
Except in combat. Although I suppose that's the only thing this forum cares about.

His story and character are full of flaws.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> And the Great Toad Sage says one of Jiraiyas students will bring either death or peace to the world.....laughs at all of Itachis works
> 
> 
> Seriously... Itachi is incredibly strong no one is denying that but stop playing him up like hes tiers beyond Jiraiya



One of his students, Also a student of many the main character, not Jiraiya.

*Regardless, i never disputed Jiraiya's role in the manga, where'as he did in regards to Itachi. His lack of proper response is proof his claim was BS.*


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> His story and character are full of flaws.



None of which prevents him from preaching at others about morals and teamwork and shit.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> None of which prevents him from preaching at others about morals and teamwork and shit.



You must have missed the part where he more or less admitted he failed his brother and his best interests, and told Naruto not to do what he did and do everything alone. Some Sue.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> You must have missed the part where he more or less admitted he failed his brother and his best interests, and told Naruto not to do what he did and do everything alone. Some Sue.



"Never try to shoulder everything alone. Now excuse me while I asspull my way to stopping edo tensei alone while I do everything I can to ignore my brother and his perfectly justified questions.'


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> "Never try to shoulder everything alone. Now excuse me while I asspull my way to stopping edo tensei alone while I do everything I can to ignore my brother and his perfectly justified questions.'



So you admit he ended edo tensei alone 
Despite that, he still admitted to failing his brother, entrusting him to Naruto.  I don't think he's the Sue you believe him to be, Not in the general sense of the word.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> So you admit he ended edo tensei alone



His little asspull went off without a hitch.



> Despite that, he still admitted to failing his brother, entrusting him to Naruto.



Good. Now I wish the rest of this universe treats him like most of this is his fault like they should, instead of kissing his ass and treating him like a martyr.



> I don't think he's the Sue you believe him to be, Not in the general sense of the word.



Of course not. He only walks around and wins fights by blinking, is never made to look bad, weak or vulnerable without some kind of blatant excuse to explain it, preaches at people, makes people who should be stronger than him look like mouth-breathing morons, ends every fight with "lol genjutsu" and has the author's own favor. Not a sue at all.


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> His little asspull went off without a hitch.


Author writes something you disagree with = Asspull.



Vice said:


> Good. Now I wish the rest of this universe treats him like most of this is his fault like they should, instead of kissing his ass and treating him like a martyr.



He was a martyr. 



Vice said:


> Of course not. He only walks around and wins fights by blinking, is never made to look bad, weak or vulnerable without some kind of blatant excuse to explain it, preaches at people, makes people who should be stronger than him look like mouth-breathing morons, ends every fight with "lol genjutsu" and has the author's own favor. Not a sue at all.




_'Makes people who should be stronger than him look like mouth-breathing morons' _ 
Who Should? Why should? They lost because they were weaker, why 'should' they be stronger? Because you said so? Your opinion < Kishi's cannon.

Lastly, if you despise the Sue, what's your opinion on Minato, i'm curious.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Your opinion < Kishi's cannon.



CONGRATULATIONS!!!! you do realize you have just ended the debate as to whether jiraiya >/= itachi right?

it was stated in manga(which as you so succinctly stated) = canon,and is greater than anyone's opinion,that even with kisame + random backup,that @ worst it would end in mutual death,and @ best would be a draw.

kudos good sir,finally an itachi fan with no bias and isn't scared to admit it!

major respect given and +rep!!!


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> CONGRATULATIONS!!!! you do realize you have just ended the debate as to whether jiraiya >/= itachi right?
> 
> it was stated in manga(which as you so succinctly stated) = canon,and is greater than anyone's opinion,that even with kisame + random backup,that @ worst it would end in mutual death,and @ best would be a draw.
> 
> ...



Yeah, except the events that follow the out-dated statement which prove it wrong were also written by the author /Facepalm.


----------



## Cyphon (Jul 30, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> It is absolutely relevant. You were saying Itachi fled from Jiraiya; this establishes that he was never interested in fighting Jiraiya in the first place.



Having no intention of fighting isn't relevant to a power comparison or anything stated though. 



> Itachi's Jutsu *are* vastly more powerful. Tsukuyomi can one-shot pretty much anyone who gets caught. Amaterasu can destroy Bijuu. Susano'o is a mountain-level defense and OHKO offense all in one.



Yes, they are all OHKO if Itachi lands them. Which can be said about pretty much every jutsu in the manga. For that matter as the manga continues to go on we see more and more counters to said MS techniques. If you want to be technicaly Yomi Numa has a 100% success rate while Amaterasu has one at probably less than 50%

So I dunno....I don't buy into your point that they are vastly superior. 



> That's why it doesn't say anything about their power; people are just extrapolating a strength relationship based on the outcome, which is flawed.



It can be flawed I agree, the problem is you (and other Itachi fans) still think he stomps when the manga already said it ain't gonna happen.

I would also say that you have to be close in power for Itachi to make a statement like that. It is pretty rare (in fact I am not sure it has ever happened) where a much weaker opponent beats a stronger one without some very special circumstances (Shikamaru vs Hidan). 



> I agree, and it shows that Itachi's Amaterasu was vastly more powerful. It broke through Jiraiya's Jutsu and allowed Itachi to escape.



Again, it isn't vastly more powerful when it took all of those drawbacks just to beat one small part of the jutsu. 



> No, because then they would just surround him and attack in coordinated turns like they had been doing.



And he could just seperate them, like he had anyway. 



> For that matter, yes, he ambushed "fatty" with the Kage Bunshin hiding in a shadow on the wall of the hallway Pain was running through in order to stall him with the Katon.



But the same thing could just as easily have happened in an open area. Either way Fatty runs in to absorb jutsu. He did it to Cho Odama and Hell Fryer or whatever it is called.



> Jiraiya himself was the one who said he would die if he kept fighting them directly, so there's no room for debate here.



No, he said if ninjutsu and taijutsu weren't going to work he would die. Then he figured out he could make it work.



> All his attacks were being negated and he said "I'm going to die." That's...losing.



No, it really isn't. If a boxer lands 3 punches while another lands 0 and the boxer who landed 3 punches starts thinking he will lose in the end does not mean he is losing.

That isn't how fights work. 



> If Pain had proper knowledge of Jiraiya, he could have prevented him from running away and casting Gamarinshou.



Possibly. I could easily make the same argument but for Jiraiya. If he had proper knowledge he would have waited for all 6 bodies and decimated Pain. 



> You don't need to be threatened to know that ambushing someone is the most effective way to take them out. I mean, that's like...Ninja 101.



True. But we know from how it went down that an ambush wasn't relevant. Remember that Jiraiya never fall back in order to ambush them. He fell back to think shit out. Once he had a plan he came for them as well as them coming for him.



> He kicked away someone who came running at him; there's nothing unusual or impressive about that.



With speed that Pain couldn't match. If we look at Naruto in the same situation Pain easily dodged him and was only hit because of the Frog Taijutsu Naruto has. 

So yeah, it was impressive. Or at least more impressive than SM Naruto. 

And you basic argument is that what Jiraiya did is easily done and yet Pain couldn't do it by reacting to Jiraiya's kicks 



> Except KCM Naruto was able to hit the Raikage with FRS at close range without the benefit of SM's enhanced sensory power (which I still don't quite understand, but whatever), so that would be incorrect.



Didn't he use feints and such. I don't quite remember all of that.


----------



## Divinstrosity (Jul 30, 2012)

I won't lie...

...Kishimoto had his head so far up Itachi's ass I started getting very bored.

Minato is worse, though. 

That dude...


...geh. What is the point of a character like that? No one is that fucking perfect.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Yeah, except the events that follow the out-dated statement which prove it wrong were also written by the author /Facepalm.



no that's not what you said. as i cannot recall any statement made about itachi being greater than jiraiya.

so you're saying you believe that itachi's later feats put him above?

hmmn,interesting. but really aren't feats subjective? so aren't you contridicting what you have previously stated?

so am i to now believe opinion is in fact > manga canon? as statements made w/o a later contradicting concrete statement are not subject to opinion or bias?

did i miss something? did itachi or anyone else just come right out in  manga and state that itachi is stronger than jiraiya? no?

so basically what you are saying is that you're (and others) opinion is that itachi's feats place him higher. you have no actual manga statements to such?

interesting.......


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 30, 2012)

Turrin, keep it concise, please.



Turrin said:


> Kishi was also clearly hinting that they were equals at that moment, with the whole we have both become top class ninja and if we fight we will die. Yes it was hint at what will go down in their future fight because we know Sasuke and Naruto will become equals at that time as well, but it was also to stress their current equality.


Disagreed for reason already mentioned.



Turrin said:


> And Sasuke admitted to needing EMS to fight Naruto.


That never happened.



Turrin said:


> Equality was clearly stressed between them to say otherwise is a denial of cannon and hell the Kabuto fights shows a SM user can handle Sasuke's Mangekyo techniques with SM senses.


And I call denial of cannon on your part for ignoring Naruto's admittance of requiring Kulama to fight MS Sasuke. 



Turrin said:


> Which has nothing to do with strength, so it's a moot point to what were discussing. Could SM Naruto convert Sasuke back to the side of good, no he couldn't, but are SM Naruto and MS Sasuke roughly equivalent in strength, yup.


WoF, i.e. a proper drive, is not strength now? Please argue against Jiraiya on that one. 

Naruto did say it wasn't about strength though, but then he also didn't say about converting, but rather defeating. He simply wasn't ready. That is the point. Sakura then wondered what Naruto was hiding what made him so calm still if he wasn't ready yet. That's exactly why "_they could've fought anytime_" is BS. It's all about the destined battle.



Turrin said:


> Yes and Sasuke underestimates Naruto, that is the running theme, however he respected Naruto's strength enough where he wanted Itachi's eyes/EMS ASAP!


He wanted to utterly *crush* everything Naruto stood for. Yeah, he was going for full power. Not because he thought he couldn't defeat him before, but because he wanted to crush.



Turrin said:


> Wow this is a BS argument. It hardly matters if a clone does it or not. The fact of the matter is Naruto keeps using the powers of SM alongside the powers of KCM/BM. So he did not replace one with the other, he uses both powers via clones. Sasduke on the other hand lost his Hebi/CS powers entirely.


Sasuke still has anti-poison blood and still uses the Kusanagi and his clothing style, which are Orochimaru's legacy. Look, if you consider Hebi some temporary mid-power, then what about CS? It disappeared too, and was something that dated back to part I. You can't just ignore that power up as if Kishimoto didn't intend it as part of progressing as a pair. No-one buys that.



Turrin said:


> LOL it is one power up it's all Kurama's chakra.


Sharingan and MS are all Sasuke's eye. I guess it's one power up then. LOL. <_< 



Turrin said:


> Except with Sharingan - MS we saw a clear evolution of the eyes to a new state.


We saw an evolution of Naruto to a new state... a new mode.. with a new name. You talk nonsense.



Turrin said:


> Did Kurama evolve between the time Naruto got KCM and the time he got BM, no he didn't. Instead he Naruto just gained the ability to draw more of Kurama's power.


He got a coat.. more profound 'whiskers' and a huge fox thing around him. He changed more than Sasuke did going to his MS incarnation. What the hell are you even trying to argue? Just drop it.



Turrin said:


> It matter because Naruto was being compared to the Sasuke that Team 7 fought, he was not being compared to anything else.


Yup, I dub him Kirin Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> Kirin isn't a chidori variant.


It doesn't need to be a variant. It is guided by Chidori.



Turrin said:


> Completed FRS is absorb into SM since it can only be achieved in SM. You really going to sit here and tell me it's more natural to compare Kirin to FRS just because they are both S-rank elemental ninjutsu LOL. In-fact this in and off it self only applies to 50% FRS, since it is the S-rank jutsu while 100% FRS which is powered by Senjutsu would have no rank just like all of the other Senjutsu techniques.
> 
> Now let's compare SM FRS to MS Enton
> 
> ...


FRS is an S-rank no matter what. It stands for the difficulty to attain. Naruto could use it before SM and he did. It was just dangerous and better not to. SM powers it up, but doesn't do anything to its rank. Your argument is entirely made up. I won't respond to it further.

PS: Amaterasu/MS powers up Kirin too.



Turrin said:


> LOL KCM is preferred for combat, yet we directly saw Naruto choose SM over KCM in *one* of his main battles during the current arc.
> 
> Than we saw Naruto use SM and BM alongside each other and again SM and KCM alongside each other in another of his major battles during this war arc. If anything SM is preferred over KCM, it's just that it takes Naruto time to enter SM, while he can enter KCM instantly.
> 
> Again this is not even close to the same thing as Sasuke losing his Hebi/CS powers.


The bold is key. If SM is used once and KCM on all others then KCM is generally preferred. Stop arguing already. The only argument you really have is that Hebi and CS were completely lost and SM is still used here and there. However, that "_problem_" is retained in your views as well. Sasuke lost CS, which he had since early part I after all. So how does that work?


I responded to everything, but the only answer I'm actually interested in is the last, i.e. if Hebi is temporary and has no parallel than what about CS? The rest will probably be disagreed on anyway from both sides.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> no that's not what you said. as i cannot recall any statement made about itachi being greater than jiraiya.
> 
> so you're saying you believe that itachi's later feats put him above?
> 
> ...



Wut.
Itachi being good, Wanting to protect Konoha from war etc. And avoiding confrontation (And needing to convince Kisame) Not to mention his later feats (And Kisame's) Make the Part I statement that he could take both seem ridiculous.


----------



## Vice (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Wut.
> Itachi being good, Wanting to protect Konoha from war etc. And avoiding confrontation (And needing to convince Kisame) Not to mention his later feats (And Kisame's) Make the Part I statement that he could take both seem ridiculous.



You actually have that backwards.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Wut.
> Itachi being good, Wanting to protect Konoha from war etc. And avoiding confrontation (And needing to convince Kisame) Not to mention his later feats (And Kisame's) Make the Part I statement that he could take both seem ridiculous.



again that is your opinion.

i din't say opinion<manga canon. you did.

i'm just asking for some clarity. b/c on one hand we have your "canon" statement,on the other we have your "opinion" of canon.

 you can't have it both ways, just cherry picking what you want to suit your position. if its canon then it = fact. and then later your opinion of  canon = fact.

see the conflict?


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> again that is your opinion.
> 
> i din't say opinion<manga canon. you did.
> 
> ...



You're cherry picking an out-dated statement in an ocean of counter evidence.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 30, 2012)

I think anything among the lines of Itachi vs Jiraiya, etc should be banned from discussion. Period. Personally I view Itachi on another tier. But nothing is gonna change someone's opinion no matter how many manga links you throw at them, how many explanations you elaborate, or how many threads you make. This is by far the most controversial issue of the manga, it's like arguing to someone who strongly hates abortion why abortion is okay to have. My views are simple, Itachi has more feats than Jiraiya, and those feats imply he's stronger. But nothing I say will change that, Kishimoto could announce on a worldwide television announcement that either Itachi or Jiraiya is stronger and people will still stand by their perceptions. This is just an issue that shouldn't be brought up.

*Rant over*


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> You're cherry picking an out-dated statement in an ocean of counter evidence.



did you say opinion<manga canon? yes or no?

did itachi state that basically him and jiraiya would either kill each other or injure each other so badly that it would basically be a draw,even if itachi had help? yes or no?

is that statement canon? yes or no?

has that individual statement been proven as a lie? yes or no?

has itachi or any other character directly contradicted or disproved that statement? yes or no?

is your judgement of itachi's feats,done to other characters, open to personal interpretation,bias,or anything else that is not concrete manga fact? yes or no?

like i said YOU made the statement. not me.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> did you say opinion<manga canon? yes or no?
> 
> did itachi state that basically him and jiraiya would either kill each other or injure each other so badly that it would basically be a draw,even if itachi had help? yes or no?
> 
> ...



Yeah i did, your point?
In the MANGA Itachi has more feats , we also have his turn-around, those points are stronger than the statement due to what we've seen from both parties.  They are BOTH cannon, however one is out-dated, the others, not so.

Itachi was clearly avoiding confrontation, and making shit up for Kisame (A rabid dog) to yield. Hell, Kisame even said that it's odd that Itachi was retreating, so he had his suspicions. Itachi avoided confrontation and only counter attacked. Keeping up his visage.

You can believe whatever you wish to believe, as will i.
Difference is, people will laugh at the fact you think Jiraiya is solo'ing Kisame and Itachi at the same time.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

i never said either way if itachi or jiraiya beat who. just glad to see that you are basically a hypocrite as like i said feat are subjective.

you feel that they put him over jiraiya,you feel itachi was just frontin b/c of kisame,yetr you have no proof.

jiraiya fans may feel that itachi's feats do not put him over jiraiya,and that iytachi was being honest when he said what he did.

but the only proof either way is itachi said what he did,and to my knowledge there has been no statement by itachi or anyone else to contradict that statement.

and since the validity of the statement can be questioned(he was lying/he was truthful) neither POV can be proven or disproved. the only thing that can be proven is that itachi stated mutual death or draw.

anything else as of yet,amounts to nothing more than one's own opinion,right or wrong,is still just one's opinion.

and like you said opinion<manga canon. if you're gonna talk the talk,have the integrity to walk the walk.

again your statement. not mine. is it wrong to hold you to your word? or is your word only accountable when it is conveinant to the POV your are supporting?


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 30, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> i never said either way if itachi or jiraiya beat who. just glad to see that you are basically a hypocrite as like i said feat are subjective.
> 
> you feel that they put him over jiraiya,you feel itachi was just frontin b/c of kisame,yetr you have no proof.
> 
> ...



I like to think common sense triumphs when presented with two bits of evidence contradicting one another and one is portrayed as stronger, but apparently not,  you need it all spelled out for you.  Like i said, believe what you wish,  I admire your loyalty when faced with ridicule. 

I was also hardly being a hypocrite, considering feats and his reveal are all cannon, and, despite not directly contradicting the statement, when we put it all together and use a bit of common sense, on top of Kisame's questioning it's somewhat obvious.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 30, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> I like to think common sense triumphs when presented with two bits of evidence contradicting one another and one is portrayed as stronger, but apparently not,  you need it all spelled out for you.  Like i said, believe what you wish,  I admire your loyalty when faced with ridicule.
> 
> I was also hardly being a hypocrite, considering feats and his reveal are all cannon, and, despite not directly contradicting the statement, when we put it all together and use a bit of common sense, on top of Kisame's questioning it's somewhat obvious.



like i said,are feats subjective? as to what is more what is less?

are statements subjective? as to what is more or what is less?

your "opinion" is itachi's feats put him over.

jiraiya fans "opinions" are they do not.

whose right? who's opinion is more valid? yours? mine? anyone elses? 

so if feats are subjective,then what do we have? statements.

and we have a statement. and we don't have any statement to disprove the previous. your opinion of later feats is still just an opinion.

now to be blatantly honest. i agree with itachi,that most likely they would destroy each other or draw.

does itachi have jutsu that would rape and OHKO jiraiya? of course.

does jiraiya have the same? yes. there are so many factors that come into play in a battle that for someone to just outright state one is so superior to the other is ludicrous. i could understand if we were talking current sasuke vs udon. that is obvious. but these two?
i'm sorry but you can't just stack up jutsu on paper and decide who wins. or use feats on which are subject to personal interpretation and bias and decide that way either.

look at hidan vs shikamaru, going by jutsu or feats there should be no way that shika wins,yet he did.


----------



## ImSerious (Jul 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> Yeah, you could tell Itachi and Kisame were so threatened by Kyuubi by the way that Kisame effortlessly absorbed Naruto's chakra with Samehada and then proceeded to smile as he claimed he was going to cut off Naruto's legs. Jiraiya shows up and they run, but it was definitely the Kyuubi they were worried about. The same Kyuubi they were sent there to abduct.
> 
> The manga makes it perfectly clear.



Get that logic outta here.



+reps


----------



## Turrin (Jul 30, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Turrin, keep it concise, please.


Being detailed oh no 



> Disagreed for reason already mentioned.


You can disagree all you want it doesn't change what is heavily implied by the manga cannon.



> That never happened.


Yes it did, I quoted Sasuke. Or are you saying Sasuke wanting Itachi's eyes ASAP to fight Naruto isn't him clearly wanting additional power to face Naruto?



> And I call denial of cannon on your part for ignoring Naruto's admittance of requiring Kulama to fight MS Sasuke. WoF, i.e. a proper drive, is not strength now? Please argue against Jiraiya on that one.
> 
> Naruto did say it wasn't about strength though, but then he also didn't say about converting, but rather defeating. He simply wasn't ready. That is the point. Sakura then wondered what Naruto was hiding what made him so calm still if he wasn't ready yet. That's exactly why "they could've fought anytime" is BS. It's all about the destined battle.


First off let me post a good translation. Here's the official viz translation:

Naruto-That's not the point....You can't beat Sasuke by just being strong...Now I know....Inside him is...

We already know SM Naruto could not defeat MS Sasuke, because it would end in a draw. Naruto knows it and Sakura does as well, which is the point of her flashback to that Naruto saying as much after Naruto responds to Kiba. 

Now here is what your missing:

Naruto read Sasuke heart in chapter 486 when they both clashed as equal top notch ninja. Naruto learned from this clash that whenever he fought Sasuke (whether it be in SM or MS incarnations or later down the road), that they would be equal to each other in strength since he respects Sasuke as his rival. Knowing this he realizes that the only way to beat Sasuke is to become stronger as a whole individual, enough so that he can both continue to compete with Sasuke's physically as well as overcome his hatred. 

Which is why Naruto says he can't beat Sasuke by just being strong and this is also why he says he needs master Kurama's powers to fight Sasuke, because he knows that he has to become stronger as a person and accept his role as Kyuubi Jinchuuriki if he is to overcome Sasuke's hatred and he also knows he has to continue to increase his physical abilities since Sasuke will do the same. 

So what your missing is that Naruto's statements aren't him saying he couldn't fight MS Sasuke to a draw with his current powers, because we already know he could, but they are direct at Naruto trying to gain more strength to be able to fight Sasuke and win, rather than being content with an outcome where they would both kill each other.

Sasuke on the other hand for all his BS underestimation of Naruto also read Naruto's heart. He saw that they would end up killing each other if they fought in their MS and SM incarnations, whether he wished to admit it or not. So in-order to keep up with Naruto physically he wanted additional power EMS, but he also wanted to take Itachi's eyes as a way to affirm his will to crush Naruto.

Basically in both cases these shinobi are seeking greater power to break the deadlock where both die, rather than needing greater power to achieve a draw. Again that is what your missing.



> Sasuke still has anti-poison blood and still uses the Kusanagi and his clothing style, which are Orochimaru's legacy.


Really you argument is clothing style :rofl

Antibodies and ksunagi are all base Sasuke shit and in no way equal out to what SM gives Naruto. The attempt to suggest they do is absolutely laughable.



> Look, if you consider Hebi some temporary mid-power, then what about CS? It disappeared too, and was something that dated back to part I. You can't just ignore that power up as if Kishimoto didn't intend it as part of progressing as a pair. No-one buys that.


Dude if anything compares to Sasuke's CS powers it's KN1-3 (tailed states). In Part I at the valley of the end CS2 Sasuke was equal to KN1 Naruto. Sasuke advanced his skill with CS over the timeskip and Naruto advanced his skill with KN to be able to use KN2-3 w/o losing control entirely. Than Sasuke looses CS around the same time he gains MS and Naruto looses his tailed states around the time he gains SM, since Minato reinforces Naruto's seal in the Pain duel.



> Sharingan and MS are all Sasuke's eye. I guess it's one power up then. LOL. <_<


EMS which you are saying is equal to BM is not his eyes, it's Itachi's eyes.



> We saw an evolution of Naruto to a new state... a new mode.. with a new name. You talk nonsense.


Again did Kurama evolve for them to reach this state like Sasuke's sharingan did, no he didn't. That's the difference. Naruto achieved BM by gaining greater mastery over Kurama. Sasuke could never achieve Mangekyo or Eternal Mangekyo by just gaining greater mastery of Three Tome, he had to evolve his eyes into an entirely new form to achieve MS and had to take his brother's eyes to achieve EMS.



> Yup, I dub him Kirin Sasuke.


Okay good for you, but not the Sasuke that Kakashi, Naruto, etc... were comparing Naruto to. They were comparing him to the Sasuke that he fought.



> It doesn't need to be a variant. It is guided by Chidori.


Where is that stated ever in the manga? Just because Sasuke channels raiton into his hand does not make it chidori anymore than when he channels raiton into his hand to enchant a weapon with lighting.



> FRS is an S-rank no matter what. It stands for the difficulty to attain. Naruto could use it before SM and he did. It was just dangerous and better not to. SM powers it up, but doesn't do anything to its rank. Your argument is entirely made up.



1. Naruto couldn't use the complete form w/o Senjutsu. 

2. Let's assume for a second that 100% FRS when used in SM is given a rank and it is S-rank (even though it was stated that FRS could be above S-rank in acquisition difficulty when completed). Even with that assumption in mind, that's all you got, that these two jutsu are both S-rank elemental ninjutsu lol. In what universe does that make this a better comparison than the one between Enton and FRS, considering all thee other points I made. 



> I won't respond to it further. PS: Amaterasu/MS powers up Kirin too.


If your trying to say 50% FRS = to normal Kirin and 100% FRS = Kirin powered up by MS. Okay fine I can understand that (though I still think Enton and FRS present a more apt comparison for reason I already stressed), but the result remains the same, since you are essentially comparing SM to MS as power ups to their respective jutsu, which again suggest MS = SM as a power up. So whatever man. 

This is why you won't respond further because you know you have zero argument since in the end you end up with the same result.



> The bold is key. If SM is used once and KCM on all others then KCM is generally preferred. Stop arguing already.


You should stop arguing since you have in-fact no argument. Naruto has not once indicated he perfers KCM over SM. Your argument is that he is in KCM form more often than in SM, well I guess he perfers base mode more than anything since he's in that more often than SM. Oh yeah and I guess he prefers KCM over BM as well since he's in KCM more often. What a BS argument you have here.

I have shown 3 separate instance in main battles, where SM continues to play a major role in Naruto's fights and where he has used it's powers alongside KCM and even BM to defeat his adversaries. Where the hell is Sasuke using CS or Hebi powers alongside MS to win fights after achieving MS? How do things he lost add to his power? LOL again what a BS argument.



> The only argument you really have is that Hebi and CS were completely lost and SM is still used here and there. However, that "problem" is retained in your views as well. Sasuke lost CS, which he had since early part I after all. So how does that work?


It seems you have failed to comprehend several things here.

1. I am not saying CS/Hebi powers are the equivalent to SM or necessarily equivalent to any of Naruto's powers, so Sasuke losing them doesn't effect jack shit with what I am saying. Though I suppose if you really want to compare CS to some power of Naruto's you could compare it to KN1-3, but I don't really care ether way.

2. The problem I have is not that Sasuke lost CS/Hebi powers. The problem is that your saying Hebi/CS is the equivalent power to SM, MS is equivalent to KCM, and EMS is equivalent to BM. This is the assertion that you making not me, yet if we accept it, it means that unless Sasuke gains back CS/hebi powers he won't be equal to Naruto when they face each other, since Naruto will have KCM = MS & BM = EMS, but than also have SM on top of this putting him well above Sasuke, which makes no sense in accordance with the whole rivals theme that has been set up between them. Unless you think Naruto is just going to stomp Sasuke when they meet next, though that kind of invalidates your argument that Naruto was speaking about their final battle would be a draw.

Ether way you slice it your argument makes no sense and that's not even getting into the difference in feats and shown strength. Oh and how great that difference in feats is LOL.
'


----------



## Rios (Jul 31, 2012)

Bloo said:


> I think anything among the lines of Itachi vs Jiraiya, etc should be banned from discussion. Period. Personally I view Itachi on another tier. But nothing is gonna change someone's opinion no matter how many manga links you throw at them, how many explanations you elaborate, or how many threads you make. This is by far the most controversial issue of the manga, it's like arguing to someone who strongly hates abortion why abortion is okay to have. My views are simple, Itachi has more feats than Jiraiya, and those feats imply he's stronger. But nothing I say will change that, Kishimoto could announce on a worldwide television announcement that either Itachi or Jiraiya is stronger and people will still stand by their perceptions. This is just an issue that shouldn't be brought up.
> 
> *Rant over*



It stopped being Itachi vs Jiraiya ages ago. Now its Common Sense vs Jiraiya.



Divinstrosity said:


> I won't lie...
> 
> ...Kishimoto had his head so far up Itachi's ass I started getting very bored.



Haha golden words  . Itachi is indeed a Sue and this alone puts him way above Jiraiya. Whats funny is how the haters admit his Sueness but will never admit his superiority. The contradiction is so delicious.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes it did, I quoted Sasuke. Or are you saying Sasuke wanting Itachi's eyes ASAP to fight Naruto isn't him clearly wanting additional power to face Naruto?


I quoted Naruto who said Sasuke did not accept Naruto as an equal yet. You are denying manga cannon here and pretending to better know what is in Sasuke's head than Naruto.



Turrin said:


> First off let me post a good translation. Here's the official viz translation:
> 
> Naruto-That's not the point....You can't beat Sasuke by just being strong...Now I know....Inside him is...
> 
> ...


Assuming you are correct, which you are not, then that would mean that a MS Sasuke who was too soon with bringing out Susano and had already degraded too much before actually mastering a complete Susano. So a perfect SM Naruto is apparently equal to an imperfect MS Sasuke according to you.



Turrin said:


> Antibodies and ksunagi are all base Sasuke shit and in no way equal out to what SM gives Naruto. The attempt to suggest they do is absolutely laughable.


When it was just SM, no, but with KCM most of SM became obsolete. Like I said, KCM is preferred, except for sensing locations, regaining some chakra and in some limited other situations.



Turrin said:


> Dude if anything compares to Sasuke's CS powers it's KN1-3 (tailed states). In Part I at the valley of the end CS2 Sasuke was equal to KN1 Naruto. Sasuke advanced his skill with CS over the timeskip and Naruto advanced his skill with KN to be able to use KN2-3 w/o losing control entirely. Than Sasuke looses CS around the same time he gains MS and Naruto looses his tailed states around the time he gains SM, since Minato reinforces Naruto's seal in the Pain duel.


I agree that CS correlates to KN, however, despite the seal being redone, Naruto could still go KN0. So that power-up isn't gone completely and has the exact same problem you think my view has.



Turrin said:


> EMS which you are saying is equal to BM is not his eyes, it's Itachi's eyes.


I know.. I am talking about regular Sharingan and MS, however. See how your argument fails utterly?



Turrin said:


> Again did Kurama evolve for them to reach this state like Sasuke's sharingan did, no he didn't. That's the difference. Naruto achieved BM by gaining greater mastery over Kurama. Sasuke could never achieve Mangekyo or Eternal Mangekyo by just gaining greater mastery of Three Tome, he had to evolve his eyes into an entirely new form to achieve MS and had to take his brother's eyes to achieve EMS.


Who says Kulama needs to evolve. It's Naruto who should parallel Sasuke.
Naruto had to open the gates. Getting more mastery over just the chakra he stole meant nothing. He had to free Kulama.



Turrin said:


> Where is that stated ever in the manga? Just because Sasuke channels raiton into his hand does not make it chidori anymore than when he channels raiton into his hand to enchant a weapon with lighting.


Common sense.



Turrin said:


> 1. Naruto couldn't use the complete form w/o Senjutsu.
> 
> 2. Let's assume for a second that 100% FRS when used in SM is given a rank and it is S-rank (even though it was stated that FRS could be above S-rank in acquisition difficulty when completed). Even with that assumption in mind, that's all you got, that these two jutsu are both S-rank elemental ninjutsu lol. In what universe does that make this a better comparison than the one between Enton and FRS, considering all thee other points I made.


It's not all I got. Actually it's the natural progression of Naruto and Sasuke progressing as a pair. Naruto needed to catch up to Sasuke and trained to attain the FRS to do so... then I notice that ironically Naruto caught up to Kirin Sasuke by creating an S-class jutsu of his own. I see what you did there, Kishimoto.



Turrin said:


> If your trying to say 50% FRS = to normal Kirin and 100% FRS = Kirin powered up by MS. Okay fine I can understand that (though I still think Enton and FRS present a more apt comparison for reason I already stressed), but the result remains the same, since you are essentially comparing SM to MS as power ups to their respective jutsu, which again suggest MS = SM as a power up. So whatever man.


You forget that KCM also completes FRS. KCM = MS.



Turrin said:


> You should stop arguing since you have in-fact no argument. Naruto has not once indicated he perfers KCM over SM. Your argument is that he is in KCM form more often than in SM, well I guess he perfers base mode more than anything since he's in that more often than SM. Oh yeah and I guess he prefers KCM over BM as well since he's in KCM more often. What a BS argument you have here.
> 
> I have shown 3 separate instance in main battles, where SM continues to play a major role in Naruto's fights and where he has used it's powers alongside KCM and even BM to defeat his adversaries. Where the hell is Sasuke using CS or Hebi powers alongside MS to win fights after achieving MS? How do things he lost add to his power? LOL again what a BS argument.


Naruto uses KCM in more fights than he does SM, but he doesn't prefer KCM for fights? 



Turrin said:


> It seems you have failed to comprehend several things here.
> 
> 1. I am not saying CS/Hebi powers are the equivalent to SM or necessarily equivalent to any of Naruto's powers, so Sasuke losing them doesn't effect jack shit with what I am saying. Though I suppose if you really want to compare CS to some power of Naruto's you could compare it to KN1-3, but I don't really care ether way.
> 
> ...



Naruto could still go KN0, whereas Sasuke completely lost CS. You should reject your own parallel for the same reason you reject mine. Also, in one instance you argue that KCM and BM are all just Kulama's chakra and hence the same power, but you forget KN are also just such powers. _YOU_ should argue that Naruto did _NOT_ lose that power, so we are still left with the mystery of what power Naruto lost that parallels to CS.
You see each power-up as a number on a DBZ scouter. That's not how it works. KCM and SM don't stack. It's one or the other, with SM _USUALLY_ just sitting somewhere sensing and KCM being the brute force.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> except in that case it isn't an itachi fan lapping at his nuts,its itachi himself saying something in the manga.
> 
> lying,not lying, ulterior motives,truth,theories, etc. all irrelevant.
> 
> ...



The statement will only be true if Itachi was evil, and guess what, according to Kishi his a hero.


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## phatpimpX4 (Jul 31, 2012)

*
"Let's pretend that an Itachi with an indestructible body and unlimited chakra is exactly the same as the Itachi that permanently blinded himself to escape from Jiraiya."-Itachi Wanker

*

Keep acting stupid and creating fan fiction Itachi Tards, it just leads more people to use common sense and disagree with you guys.

I can't believe there are actually people in this thread comparing Itachi to Nagato and Minato. LMFAO. The fail keeps progressing as Itachi fans get more and more delusional.


----------



## Baroxio (Jul 31, 2012)

I find it hard to believe that Itachi truly believed that Jiraiya was a threat when he calmy turns his back to him, beats up on his little brother, and then wastes a good 30%+ of his stamina using a Magenkyo technique on a small, barely conscious boy who had already given up on fighting back.

This just isn't the kind of thing a person does to someone "equal" to them, much less possibly stronger. You just don't turn your back on your opponent unless your stronger than them.

Unless you're an idiot, but this is Itachi we're talking about...


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2012)

phatpimpX4 said:


> *
> "Let's pretend that an Itachi with an indestructible body and unlimited chakra is exactly the same as the Itachi that permanently blinded himself to escape from Jiraiya."-Itachi Wanker
> 
> *
> ...





*Let's pretend that Itachi didn't use more chakra taxing jutsu in the sasuke battle then he did the whole time he was a Edo and ignore the context of those separate fights all togather to support my igonrant hatred for a char that has stomped my fav char repeatedly.Now im buthurt trolling the fourms-Buthurt Itachi hater"*

Stop acting like a troll and trolling NF With your itachi hate nobody cares what few haters think anyway it just leads use common sense and disagree with you guys.

I can't believe there are actually people in this thread comparing Itachi to Nagato and Minato. LMFAO. Itachi fucking sealed nagato and Minato is only around sharingan tobi lvl which gai shown shown to be on the same tobi that was hiding from Itachi until his death.

The fail keeps progressing as Itachi Haters In there buthurt get more and more delusional.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 31, 2012)

Baroxio said:


> I find it hard to believe that Itachi truly believed that Jiraiya was a threat when he calmy turns his back to him, beats up on his little brother, and then wastes a good 30%+ of his stamina using a Magenkyo technique on a small, barely conscious boy who had already given up on fighting back.
> 
> This just isn't the kind of thing a person does to someone "equal" to them, much less possibly stronger. You just don't turn your back on your opponent unless your stronger than them.
> 
> Unless you're an idiot, but this is Itachi we're talking about...



Except having another kage level shinobi there to help had nothing to do with it....


----------



## Panos (Jul 31, 2012)

So it is still Turrin, Cyphon and someone called Vice(*who has for a sig: Hate Itachi? Join this club*) arguing that Jiraiya is just as strong as Itachi. Years do not bring along wisdom I guess.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2012)

Panos said:


> So it is still Turrin, Cyphon and someone called Vice(*who has for a sig: Hate Itachi? Join this club*) arguing that Jiraiya is just as strong as Itachi. Years do not bring along wisdom I guess.



Yea the buthurt ones who tried to debate against Itachi fans a got owned and burned. 

It seems these guys just keep repeating the same crap now and debate in circles since then can't actually win with anything soild.

You can just see the vemon in there post from years of getting trolled.


You for got phatpimpX4


----------



## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> Yea the buthurt ones who tried to debate against Itachi fans a got owned and burned.
> 
> It seems these guys just keep repeating the same crap now and debate in circles since then can't actually win with anything soild.
> 
> You can just see the vemon in there post from years of getting trolled.



You've been here all of five minutes. The fuck do you have to say?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Except having another kage level shinobi there to help had nothing to do with it....



But Itachi and Kisame and Back Up equals to Jiraiya. 

Itachi found Jiraiya such a threat that he thought he and Kisame and back up would equal to him, yet he turned his back on him and used a taxing jutsu on his little brother.


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

People who say Jiraiya > Itachi, Kisame and backup aren't really taken seriously anymore, so there's some improvement.


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## Panos (Jul 31, 2012)

I am not going to comment on that. However, I will say this: It becomes obvious when someone argues just for the sake of arguing without having anything to say. Wall of texts do not conceal that. Nor does flaming. We are all more or less intelligent and can discern that.

As for the thread to make my post relevant: Itachi lied. Apart from that the feats and manga portrayal put him above Jiraiya.


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> But Itachi and Kisame and Back Up equals to Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi found Jiraiya such a threat that he thought he and Kisame and back up would equal to him, yet he turned his back on him and used a taxing jutsu on his little brother.



He's a dick and also had the option to flee. You know, like he did.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2012)

Vice said:


> You've been here all of five minutes. The fuck do you have to say?



Ive been reading here and seeing your post for a while dude ive been here since may its almost august.

And you have been here since 2004 every post you make about Itachi is negative.

Its not hard to put 2 and 2 togather.

You expose yourself too easily.


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## Santoryu (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi and Gai rocked the latest chapter.

These three can go fuck off.


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## Panos (Jul 31, 2012)

Seph said:


> People who say Jiraiya > Itachi, Kisame and backup aren't really taken seriously anymore, so there's some improvement.



Well Kisame and Itachi alone would make it very one-sided. So one-sided that Jiraiya would need to defend and defend and defend. So more back-up is overkill.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> I quoted Naruto who said Sasuke did not accept Naruto as an equal yet. You are denying manga cannon here and pretending to better know what is in Sasuke's head than Naruto.


I said Sasuke did not accept Naruto as a total equal, but you denying manga cannon if you don't realize that Sasuke constantly underestimates Naruto.



> Assuming you are correct, which you are not, then that would mean that a MS Sasuke who was too soon with bringing out Susano and had already degraded too much before actually mastering a complete Susano. So a perfect SM Naruto is apparently equal to an imperfect MS Sasuke according to you.


MS Sasuke did master Susano'o to stage 4, we saw him pull stage 4 out against Kakashi. The only thing that became degraded was his eyesight, which is the case for everyone who masters Mangekyo.



> When it was just SM, no, but with KCM most of SM became obsolete. Like I said, KCM is preferred, except for sensing locations, regaining some chakra and in some limited other situations.


SM has been used for task requiring locating things, tasks requiring greater precise reactions, and tasks requiring greater physical strength. That's 3 major things where we have seen SM excel past KCM. I'm sure there are instances where Frog Katas are also going to beneficial. So SM is hardly obsolete that is a pipe dream on your part. 



> I agree that CS correlates to KN, however, despite the seal being redone, Naruto could still go KN0. So that power-up isn't gone completely and has the exact same problem you think my view has.


I said you can correlate it to KN1-3. Plus even if you want to say KN0 correlates to CS1 or some thing. CS1 is not a large power up by Part II standards, the lose of which is not that detrimental and can be made up for simply by Sasuke's body becoming stronger as he trained MS. 

It's not nearly as major as saying Sasuke lost an equivalent power up to SM. 



> I know.. I am talking about regular Sharingan and MS, however. See how your argument fails utterly?


Your also saying BM = EMS are you not. And no I don't see my argument fails, I see your grasping at straws.



> Who says Kulama needs to evolve. It's Naruto who should parallel Sasuke.
> Naruto had to open the gates. Getting more mastery over just the chakra he stole meant nothing. He had to free Kulama.


LOL, because sharingan evolves. Again I repeat the difference is Naruto achieved BM from further mastery of 1 power = Kurama's. Sasuke could not achieve Mangekyo or EMS by further mastery of three tome, he had to evolve his eyes. Again that is the difference.



> Common sense.


I guess it's common sense that everyone who channels raiton into their hand is using Chidori LOL.



> It's not all I got. Actually it's the natural progression of Naruto and Sasuke progressing as a pair. Naruto needed to catch up to Sasuke and trained to attain the FRS to do so... then I notice that ironically Naruto caught up to Kirin Sasuke by creating an S-class jutsu of his own. I see what you did there, Kishimoto.


So your comparing 50% FRS to Kirin than. Plus progression is BS argument since it can be manipulated to flow ether way:

"Actually it's the natural progression of Naruto and Sasuke progressing as a pair. Naruto Sasuke needed to catch up to Sasuke  Naruto and trained to attain the FRS  Enton to do so... then I notice that ironically Naruto Sasuke caught up to Kirin Sasuke SM Naruto by creating an S-class jutsu of his own and mastering MS. I see what you did there, Kishimoto."



> You forget that KCM also completes FRS. KCM = MS.


Just like EMS also powers up Kirin?



> Naruto uses KCM in more fights than he does SM, but he doesn't prefer KCM for fights?


Naruto uses KCM in more fights than he does SM BM, but he doesn't prefer KCM for fights?  What a brilliant argument lol.



> Naruto could still go KN0, whereas Sasuke completely lost CS. You should reject your own parallel for the same reason you reject mine. Also, in one instance you argue that KCM and BM are all just Kulama's chakra and hence the same power, but you forget KN are also just such powers. YOU should argue that Naruto did NOT lose that power, so we are still left with the mystery of what power Naruto lost that parallels to CS.


I said you could compare those two powers, I didn't say it had to be compare. The reason I don't reject it is since I do not believe the loss of CS is as detrimental as you do since I'm not the one comparing it to SM. I think Sasuke could have easily made up for it by strengthening his body during his training of Mangekyo Sharingan. 



> You see each power-up as a number on a DBZ scouter. That's not how it works. KCM and SM don't stack. It's one or the other, with SM USUALLY just sitting somewhere sensing and KCM being the brute force.


No I just give SM the respect it deserves, you on the other hand do not. Your saying at this point in Naruto's advancement it is as useful as Ksunagi sword and some poison resistance, which is the most laughable claim I have ever heard on this forum. SM still remains an immense power up Naruto has under his command and it has been a integral part in Naruto victories in 2 of his main battles during this war. The only main battle where it didn't play a major role was against Nagato, but here Naruto had help from 2 other ninja. 

And the arc is still not over. It would not surprise me if we saw it come up again in the Tobi vs Team Naruto battle. Hell I could see SM sensing and/or Frog Katas being extremely helpful to Team Naruto in overcoming Tobi's S/T jutsu. 

Ether way if you think I'm wrong why don't you make a thread about it a poll the forum asking them which is the better power up now that Naruto has KCM/BM, SM or Sasuke's immunity to some poisons and Ksunagi sword lol. If you really think that BS make any sense.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Like someone said before, this isn't about Jiraiya vs Itachi anymore. Its common sense vs Itachi.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> But Itachi and Kisame and Back Up equals to Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi found Jiraiya such a threat that he thought he and Kisame and back up would equal to him, yet he turned his back on him and used a taxing jutsu on his little brother.



Are you still arguing this statement...Who even thinks Jiraiya stands a chance against those two plus backup anyways? I dont recall one person saying he would win or draw

Anyone who thinks Jiraiya stands a chance against Itachi & kisame let alone with back up is obviously biased or dumb. You have to take that statement for what it is just like numerous other statements made throughtout the manga.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Are you still arguing this statement...
> 
> Anyone who thinks Jiraiya stands a chance against Itachi & kisame let alone with back up is obviously biased or dumb. You have to take that statement for what it is just like numerous other statements made throughtout the manga.



Yes, as most people who believes Jiraiya = or > Itachi still cling to that statement. They've been using this statement in this very thread. Read back and Vice post.


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## principito (Jul 31, 2012)

I started posting on this thread like 2 days ago..... around page 3 then around page 13 then page 16 and not its page 21.....

can somebody sum it up please so i can pick up?

Turrin and Sniffers have their on talk but its about Naruto and Sasuke (WTF), Kakashi and Vice are talking about somebody else so i dont really know what to say now lol


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## Panos (Jul 31, 2012)

Hello Principito? Wanna talk with me? Pick a side.


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## principito (Jul 31, 2012)

Panos said:


> Hello Principito? Wanna talk with me? Pick a side.



I dont have sides =)

I really think that if Itachi and Jiraya fought either could win..... 

If Itachi wins it will cost him at least an eye for susano'o overuse since its the only way he could tank the massive arsenal that Jiraya holds.

It Jiraya wins, i can see him comming out of the battle without an arm or a leg (being burned  by amaterasu maybe).

Itachi is fast and smart and yields his sharingan, Jiraya is just a beast holding tons of chakra and many aces under his sleave. However I do believe that Kisame and Itachi vs Jiraya is too much for the Sanin.

But i just love reading this threads.... some arguments have very interesting approaches if u may call them like that


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## Kanki (Jul 31, 2012)

I don't really see what the 3 have to do with each other anyway. A > B > C logic doesn't work, and as I said before strength is subjective in itself. The only time it's straight forward is in the BD.


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Like someone said before, this isn't about Jiraiya vs Itachi anymore. Its common sense vs Itachi.



So this is a battle against common sense but what is it when you try to argue that Itachi can beat     

So let me get this straight, Jiraiya beating two part 1 characters with barely any feats is beyond ridiculous, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the thought that Itachi could effortlessly beat three high-tier Akatsuki members at once?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Vice said:


> So this is a battle against common sense but what is it when you try to argue that Itachi can beat
> 
> So let me get this straight, Jiraiya beating two part 1 characters with barely any feats is beyond ridiculous, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the thought that Itachi could effortlessly beat three high-tier Akatsuki members at once?



Read my post carefully, I said Itachi can defeat Deidara and Kakuzu. Thats two akatsuki member, not 3. I said Itachi would lose because of Sasori. 

Deidara got blitzed by Sai, Kakuzu's attack was dodged by Ino so its believable for a top tier shinobi to defeat these two akatsuki member.

Jiraiya on the other hand will be forced to use SM against Deidara.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yes, as most people who believes Jiraiya = or > Itachi still cling to that statement. They've been using this statement in this very thread. Read back and Vice post.



Well I hate to burst your bubble but Jiraiya, Itachi and orochimaru would all be reletivily close in strength with Itachi having the slightest advantage due to his spiritual weapons. Nothing indicates or is shown to put Itachi in another tier bracket. Edo Itachi is another story though since he does not suffer from drawbacks and stamina


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 31, 2012)

Another reason I feel Itachi and Kisame were referring to Kyuubi jin is because...

Jiraiya compared himself to an Akatsuki member by saying, 'I wonder they will handle someone like myself attacking the village' or something to that affect. Deidara was attacking the Sand, and Jiraiya compared himself to an extremely powerful Akatsuki member.

Now, Deidara was certainly special in Akatsuki, and I'm sure Jiraiya would have been also if he had been a member. What it DOES suggest is that, there is no way in hell one Akatsuki level character- minus Pain maybe, and he's six bodies being controlled remotely, and you can't kill them like normal shinobi - is taking on multiple Akatsuki members, unless it's the weakest ones. 

I can understand Kisame saying that about the Kyuubi jin - considering he didn't know WHAT his level was - but not about Jiraiya who, while powerful, is very similar in power and skill to most Akatsuki members.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 31, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Another reason I feel Itachi and Kisame were referring to Kyuubi jin is because...
> 
> Jiraiya compared himself to an Akatsuki member by saying, 'I wonder they will handle someone like myself attacking the village' or something to that affect. Deidara was attacking the Sand, and Jiraiya compared himself to an extremely powerful Akatsuki member.
> 
> ...



Dude , just accept the panel as it is.

trying to twist and interpert it like that to fit your agenda is a shameful act.

especially by a member who've been here a long time like you.

also Author at the time probably didnt even think of Deidara and Pain's characters at all.


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## Shattering (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Like someone said before, this isn't about Jiraiya vs Itachi anymore. Its common sense vs Itachi.



I like this 

Anyway, we have to believe that:
- Itachi/Kisame were speaking about Jiraiya and not Kurama (even when grammar  and common sense says otherwise) but ok. 
- Then believing this we also have to believe that Itachi was not trying to protect Konoha with that comments.
- Then we ignore that Itachi  said 2 chapters before that "only and Uchiha can defeat him".  
- Then we have to ignore too that and armless Orochimaru had 0 problems facing Jiraiya+Tsunade (he was defeated obviously...) but a healthy Orochimaru was scared of Itachi (and stomped by 13 years old Itachi).
- Apart from all that we have to ignore part 2 where we see that Itachi + Kisame with or without backup will stomp Jiraiya.

Ok so if we ignore the whole manga we reach to the conclusion that Itachi+Kisame couldn't face Jiraiya 


The other possibility is that they were talking about Kurama or Itachi was lying but of course only Itachi tards and irrational monkeys like me believe this so...

I love this forums


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 31, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Dude , just accept the panel as it is.
> 
> trying to twist and interpert it like that to fit your agenda is a shameful act.
> 
> ...



Dude, if I can find the thread, the first time I read that dialogue between Itachi and Kisame I created a thread about it, because the way it was worded made i seem like they were talking about Naruto.

I'm not twisting anything. You have translators who say they were talking about Jiraiya and translators who say they were talking about the Kyuubi jin. If it's the Kyuubi jin, things make A LOT more sense, especially considering they didn't know how strong he was, as Itachi hadn't been in the village for five years.


Not to mention, while Pain and Deidara may not have been thought of, Kishimoto had already came up with the idea that Akatsuki would be made up of nine extremely dangerous S-Rank criminals. We saw that in Kakashi's flashback. 

So, this entire thing comes down to interp, and if you think it's more logical that Itachi and Kisame could AT BEST draw with Jiraiya w/ bakcup, rather than them assuming the worst case scenario - a perfect Kyuubi jin ...

...then by all means think what you want.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I said Sasuke did not accept Naruto as a total equal, but you denying manga cannon if you don't realize that Sasuke constantly underestimates Naruto.


..and Naruto overestimates himself. Itachi called him on that one.



Turrin said:


> MS Sasuke did master Susano'o to stage 4, we saw him pull stage 4 out against Kakashi. The only thing that became degraded was his eyesight, which is the case for everyone who masters Mangekyo.


..except Tobi said Sasuke had detoriated faster because he pulled out Susano too fast.



Turrin said:


> SM has been used for task requiring locating things, tasks requiring greater precise reactions, and tasks requiring greater physical strength. That's 3 major things where we have seen SM excel past KCM. I'm sure there are instances where Frog Katas are also going to beneficial. So SM is hardly obsolete that is a pipe dream on your part.


Greater strength? Anyhow, it's not completely obsolete, but it's taking a clear back seat to KCM. Why not admit that? 



Turrin said:


> I said you can correlate it to KN1-3. Plus even if you want to say KN0 correlates to CS1 or some thing. CS1 is not a large power up by Part II standards, the lose of which is not that detrimental and can be made up for simply by Sasuke's body becoming stronger as he trained MS.
> 
> It's not nearly as major as saying Sasuke lost an equivalent power up to SM.


I'd like arguments to go with these statements. 



Turrin said:


> LOL, because sharingan evolves. Again I repeat the difference is Naruto achieved BM from further mastery of 1 power = Kurama's. Sasuke could not achieve Mangekyo or EMS by further mastery of three tome, he had to evolve his eyes. Again that is the difference.


..and Naruto had to evolve to a new mode to achieve the feats he did. Your distinctions are continuously arbitrary in an attempt to make your view work. Hebi suddenly has no counter part and somehow falls outside of Kishi's idea of progression as a pair and modes and powers Kishi gives different names somehow are one and the same. You are making it a lot harder than it has to be and yet you tell me I'm grasping at straws. Ironic.



Turrin said:


> So your comparing 50% FRS to Kirin than. Plus progression is BS argument since it can be manipulated to flow ether way:
> 
> "Actually it's the natural progression of Naruto and Sasuke progressing as a pair. Naruto Sasuke needed to catch up to Sasuke  Naruto and trained to attain the FRS  Enton to do so... then I notice that ironically Naruto Sasuke caught up to Kirin Sasuke SM Naruto by creating an S-class jutsu of his own and mastering MS. I see what you did there, Kishimoto."


For one 50% FRS is again a distinction you made up. Also, that manipulation doesn't hold water. FRS was something Naruto had way before SM, whereas Enton came after/with MS. The progression doesn't fit, it'd be too late.



Turrin said:


> Just like EMS also powers up Kirin?


..and BM supports FRS too.



Turrin said:


> Naruto uses KCM in more fights than he does SM BM, but he doesn't prefer KCM for fights?  What a brilliant argument lol.


He would use BM if only he could. You're not sounding clever here, dawg.



Turrin said:


> I said you could compare those two powers, I didn't say it had to be compare. The reason I don't reject it is since I do not believe the loss of CS is as detrimental as you do since I'm not the one comparing it to SM. I think Sasuke could have easily made up for it by strengthening his body during his training of Mangekyo Sharingan.


That's exactly like me saying that if Naruto lost SM it wouldn't be so detrimental since he has KCM to make up for most of it now. 



Turrin said:


> No I just give SM the respect it deserves, you on the other hand do not. Your saying at this point in Naruto's advancement it is as useful as Ksunagi sword and some poison resistance, which is the most laughable claim I have ever heard on this forum. SM still remains an immense power up Naruto has under his command and it has been a integral part in Naruto victories in 2 of his main battles during this war. The only main battle where it didn't play a major role was against Nagato, but here Naruto had help from 2 other ninja.
> 
> And the arc is still not over. It would not surprise me if we saw it come up again in the Tobi vs Team Naruto battle. Hell I could see SM sensing and/or Frog Katas being extremely helpful to Team Naruto in overcoming Tobi's S/T jutsu.
> 
> Ether way if you think I'm wrong why don't you make a thread about it a poll the forum asking them which is the better power up now that Naruto has KCM/BM, SM or Sasuke's immunity to some poisons and Ksunagi sword lol. If you really think that BS make any sense.


You are not giving CS the proper respect though. SM is an incredible power-up, it's just that KCM can almost completely replace it. SM still has some things over KCM like sensing and reflexes, but indeed that is as useful as a Kusanagi and poison immunity. Had KCM not been a replacement and had it stacked then you would've had a point.

Naruto already used KCM sensing to counter Tobi's surprise attack. SM may be useful like against Edo Raikage though.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*In summary...*
Naruto obtained FRS to catch up to Sasuke. Then Sasuke got Hebi powers and Naruto's next power up was SM. Then Sasuke got MS, losing Hebi, and Naruto got KCM, replacing SM for the most part (not completely). Finally EMS and BM.

It's a straight forward view, that doesn't require to ignore Hebi powers as something that doesn't belong in the progressing as a pair, or requires me to view one power up of Naruto's being equivalent to one of Sasuke's in a later one. I'm merely following to sequence and noticing the parallels. You are finding parallels in order to make the sequence work, which forces you to dismiss Hebi to make it fit. My view is simple, you are making it harder than it needs to be. So much for grasping at straws.


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## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> and translators who say they were talking about the Kyuubi jin.


Is there any translator saying that? Who? 



> If it's the Kyuubi jin, things make A LOT more sense,


How does that make any sense when we know Itachi knew that the MS controlled the Kyuubi? 

Itachi had the MS at the time, didn?t he? MS>Kyuubi, manga canon. 
So, we have to conclude that Itachi (MS)+ Kisame are >the Kyuubi. Simple.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Dude, if I can find the thread, the first time I read that dialogue between Itachi and Kisame I created a thread about it, because the way it was worded made i seem like they were talking about Naruto.
> 
> I'm not twisting anything. You have translators who say they were talking about Jiraiya and translators who say they were talking about the Kyuubi jin. If it's the Kyuubi jin, things make A LOT more sense, especially considering they didn't know how strong he was, as Itachi hadn't been in the village for five years.



okay. well lets put some context to it.

let's say they were talking about naruto/kyuubi- so immediately after conversing about how dangerous he his,and that kisame isn't even in his league,and itachi would die or draw even with back up, they just all non-chalantly walk up to his door,knock,and say "hey,you're coming with us".

or

they're talking about jiriaya and rather than directly confront him and take naruto,they rather decide, to distract him and remove him from the equation.

and then when that fails,and a direct confrontation is imminent,do they wtf roflstomp/rape him like evryone is sayin? no- they retreat.


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Anyway, we have to believe that:
> - Itachi/Kisame were speaking about Jiraiya and not Kurama (even when grammar  and common sense says otherwise) but ok.



They were sent to kidnap and extract the Kyuubi, they're not going to run from him especially when there was nothing on panel that indicated that they would have any difficulty from Naruto. On the contrary, they showed zero concern for Naruto or the Kyuubi and only ran once Jiraiya got there.

But I'll play devil's advocate here. What occurred between them and Naruto that even comes close to resembling that they were worried about the Kyuubi in this situation?



> - Then believing this we also have to believe that Itachi was not trying to protect Konoha with that comments.



Well considering that he put one of their strongest jounins in the hospital, ordered the death of two others, beat the hell out of Sasuke and would have taken Naruto sans legs if not for the interference of Gai and Jiraiya, the latter of which Itachi went out of his way to separate from Naruto, and also not forgetting that Sasuke and Kakashi were so badly hurt that it took Konoha finding and gaining the assistance of Tsunade to help them, I really have to ask what part of Itachi's role here indicates he was looking out for Konoha aside from fleeing from Jiraiya at the first opportunity he could?



> - Then we ignore that Itachi  said 2 chapters before that "only and Uchiha can defeat him".



Ninja aids isn't an Uchiha. Nagato is clearly above him too. As is Minato, Kabuto and Hashirama. None of them are Uchiha.



> - Then we have to ignore too that and armless Orochimaru had 0 problems facing Jiraiya+Tsunade (he was defeated obviously...) but a healthy Orochimaru was scared of Itachi (and stomped by 13 years old Itachi).



Orochimaru also got stronger in that time and didn't seem hesitant at all of attacking Itachi during the Sasuke fight. Jiraiya also wasn't in Sage Mode.



> - Apart from all that we have to ignore part 2 where we see that Itachi + Kisame with or without backup will stomp Jiraiya.



Based on what now? I must have missed the chapter where on-panel evidence of this was given.



> Ok so if we ignore the whole manga we reach to the conclusion that Itachi+Kisame couldn't face Jiraiya



Exactly what you and your ilk do whenever you need to further wank Itachi.



> The other possibility is that they were talking about Kurama



Again, nothing comes close to indicating that the Kyuubi was a problem here.



> or Itachi was lying but of course only Itachi tards and irrational monkeys like me believe this so...



Considering protecting Konoha wasn't a problem when he hospitalized Kakashi, or when Kisame threatened Naruto, or when their jounins had to die or when he unnecessarily tortured his own brother, all of a sudden Konoha's safety was oh so important when Jiraiya shows up? 

Do I believe Itachi could beat Jiraiya if they fought? Yes. He's a sue and has the author's favor, of course he'd win. But the gap between Itachi and Jiraiya/Orochimaru isn't as wide as you guys think. Certainly isn't more wide than the gap between Nagato and Itachi.


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> Is there any translator saying that? Who?
> 
> 
> How does that make any sense when we know Itachi knew that the MS controlled the Kyuubi?
> ...



Well, that makes perfect sense considering Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto, anyway.

People are still reading this as Itachi being a villain who REALLY wanted to capture Naruto. We had it shoved down our throats how much of a liar Itachi was. Hell, one of his first lines out of his mouth was a lie when he told Kisame he didn't feel pity for his former village. 


As for the other translator: "The above translation is way off.

Kisame - You could somehow win, but I couldn't stand up to such an opponent for more than a couple of minutes... It's on a completely different level.
Itachi - Ah... Either (we) both (he says both/two, meaning him and Kisame) would die, or it would be a draw... The result wouldn't change even if we increased our numbers.
Kisame - It was good that we found him at the ramen shop... And he has one of the Legendary Sannin as a lucky charm. That guy (Jiraiya) might be a fair match for the strongest Uchiha from Konoha and the Mist's strongest swordsman.
Itachi - Hmm, even so... It's said that every strong man has a weakness...

Kisame and Itachi were talking about the Kyuubi, not Jiraiya. Kisame brings the topic of Jiraiya up later on in the conversation and Itachi acknowledges that he's strong, but he says that he has a weakness. *girls girls girls*"



It would make sense that they would be discussing his TARGET and no Jiraiya. They weren't after Jiraiya, but they did mention that Jiraiya was w/ him.

Not to mention, Itachi had JUST said that, without the sharingan and Uchiha blood, no one could defeat him. He comes back a chapter two later describing Jiraiya as someone, at best, he could tie with, no matter the numbers?

Nah. 

Doesn't pass the smell test. 

Either way, be it Jiraiya or Kyuubi jin, Itachi and Kisame are hardly, at best, able to defeat either of them. He can use the MS on the a Kyuubi jin, and he and Kisame would overwhelm Jiraiya, unless he went Sage Mode in a hurry and whipped out all of his summons. Even then, Kisame is chakra tank like Jiraiya - even moreso - who can use large scale jutsu. 

Itachi has a no. of OHKO moves that are very difficult to avoid, especially if you don't know about them. Jiraiya, as we know, didn't know about Amaterasu, so why would he think to avoid it? Raikage was able to avoid it because he is fast, AND because he had been told about the technique. 

Jiraiya wasn't going to avoid that jutsu, man.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> Is there any translator saying that? Who?


Multiple actually. However, since the majority of the Japanese population consider the subject to be Jiraiya, many of them conceded. Just to note, even the Japanese population is having this discussion as all translators will admit it is ambiguous even in Japanese. It's really up to context. There is no real right or wrong, just a majority supporting the subject is Jiraiya.



ZE said:


> How does that make any sense when we know Itachi knew that the MS controlled the Kyuubi?
> 
> Itachi had the MS at the time, didn’t he? MS>Kyuubi, manga canon.
> So, we have to conclude that Itachi (MS)+ Kisame are >the Kyuubi. Simple.


Kulama will probably play a role in Naruto's fight against Sasuke. We'll have to see how simple it really is.


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

Hey Jiraiya fans. Tell me how Jiraiya can counter:

1. Tsukuyomi
2. Amaterasu
3. Totsuka sword


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2012)

Simple, he uses Frog Song.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 31, 2012)

jiraiya looked itachi straight in the eyes in part 1. i'm still waiting for the itachi haters/jiraiya fans to claim that it wasn't because itachi didn't want to succeed in the mission, but because jiraiya is immune to genjutsu


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Seph said:


> Hey Jiraiya fans. Tell me how Jiraiya can counter:
> 
> 1. Tsukuyomi
> 2. Amaterasu
> 3. Totsuka sword



Yomi numa.


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## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> 1. Smoke bombs.
> 2. Smoke bombs.
> 3. Smoke bombs.



It's true! Though Shima's is even better. It completely rapes Itachi in one technique.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Itachi has a no. of OHKO moves that are very difficult to avoid, especially if you don't know about them. Jiraiya, as we know, didn't know about Amaterasu, so why would he think to avoid it? Raikage was able to avoid it because he is fast, AND because he had been told about the technique.
> 
> Jiraiya wasn't going to avoid that jutsu, man.



now see,this i have a problem with. you envision the scenario that jiraiya just stands there and takes the amaterasu. and in that scenario you'd be correct.

here's a counterpoint

jiraiya is aware of itachi's rep,and knowing he's dangerous,sends out a shadowclone(you know one of the best tactics to use)to gain intel,itachi amaterasu the clone,meanwhile jiraiya slams him from above with senpo oodama rasengan. fight over.

see how that works? scenario's can be made for both to win, and that's the point.

it's not like we're talking madara vs konohamaru here.


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Simple, he uses Frog Song.



HAHAHA fuck no. SM, and THEN Frog Song requires like 10 minutes of prep. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are instant.


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Seph said:


> HAHAHA fuck no. SM, and THEN Frog Song requires like 10 minutes of prep. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are instant.



So is Yomi Numa.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

ever hear of shadow clones?


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

Vice said:


> So is Yomi Numa.



Yomi Numa doesn't counter Amaterasu nor Tsukuyomi. 



> ever hear of shadow clones?



 SHARINGAN. It sees through them.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 31, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> now see,this i have a problem with. you envision the scenario that jiraiya just stands there and takes the amaterasu. and in that scenario you'd be correct.
> 
> here's a counterpoint
> 
> ...



so now jiraiya has such fast handseals that he can make a shadow clone before itachi with a sharingan and top tier reflexes can realize? and itachi would be able to summon a susanoo the moment he sees the light from the giant rasengan. it would be like a spirit bomb, none of the enemies are too slow to react since you can see it from a mile away


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

Seph said:


> Yomi Numa doesn't counter Amaterasu nor Tsukuyomi.



Doesn't have to. Itachi is sucked down before he can even use them.


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## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> SHARINGAN. It sees through them.



THE MANGA. You should read it.


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## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Multiple actually. However, since the majority of the Japanese population consider the subject to be Jiraiya, many of them conceded. Just to note, even the Japanese population is having this discussion as all translators will admit it is ambiguous even in Japanese. It's really up to context. There is no real right or wrong, just a majority supporting the subject is Jiraiya.


All the translations I read, including the viz one, indicate that they were talking about Jiraiya. Also, if you watch the anime, the fansubs also translated that part as if they were talking about Jiraiya. 

That put together with Itachi and Kisame?s actions, I think there?s no doubt Jiraiya was the one being mentioned. 


And, Sniffer, is it really that hard to see at this point that the relevance the SM holds in this manga isn?t gonna go away just because you want it to happen?

Geez, dude. Give it a rest. It?s so obvious at this point that SM will be how Naruto will manage to defeat the final villain. You need to read more manga where the main characters manage to use the power of nature. That?s how it always ends. And now that it?s even more obvious that one of RS? strongest jutsus was SM, just like I?ve been predicting due to his sennin name, you can bet Naruto is gonna use it in the upcoming fights. 


Overall, SM Naruto had better display than RM Naruto.

SM Naruto:
-Beats Pain
-Beats Kyuubi
-Beats Third Raikage 
-No defeats so far? 

RM Naruto:
-Punches Kisame
-Avoids Fourth Raikage
-Rasengans a distracted Muu
-loses to Nagato and Tobi?s Jinchuurikis


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

hmph said:


> THE MANGA. You should read it.



LOL,see and this is what we're dealing with.


----------



## Shattering (Jul 31, 2012)

SM > RM yep, that's why Naruto only uses SM when he can't enter RM, it makes sense, and that's why when Madara appeared Gaara asked Naruto to enter RM  and Naruto was like oh no I can't atm but I could enter SM.


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## Ghost (Jul 31, 2012)

Vice said:


> Doesn't have to. Itachi is sucked down before he can even use them.



Itachi has jumped away before the swamp has reached him.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Well I hate to burst your bubble but Jiraiya, Itachi and orochimaru would all be reletivily close in strength with Itachi having the slightest advantage due to his spiritual weapons. Nothing indicates or is shown to put Itachi in another tier bracket. Edo Itachi is another story though since he does not suffer from drawbacks and stamina



My point was never about the difference in level between Itachi and Jiraiya. My point was that Jiraiya being a match for Itachi, Kisame and Back Up is incorrect and its unbelievable if it is true.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 31, 2012)

Some Itachi wankers/fans think Itachi have high stamina to able to spam Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo to no end.

Itachi stamina in DB: 2.5 , in the fight vs Hebi Sasuke clearly show that  Itachi sucks in stamina - chakra and is very dangerous for him to use MS jutsus.


----------



## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> Itachi has jumped away before the swamp has reached him.



Only to land in the swamp, because its bigger than the distance he can jump


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## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

Shattering said:


> SM > RM yep, that's why Naruto only uses SM when he can't enter RM,


SM requires prep. I thought Pa already told us that when he said you can't enter SM when you're alone in the battlefield. 



> it makes sense, and that's why when Madara appeared Gaara asked Naruto to enter RM and Naruto was like oh no I can't atm but I could enter SM.


Gaara knows SM? Since when?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Some Itachi wankers/fans think Itachi have hight stamina to able to spam Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo to no end.
> 
> Itachi stamina in DB: 2.5 and in the fight vs Hebi Sasuke clearly show that Itachi sucks in stamina - chakra.



Manga feats > Databook.

Manga is the primary canon and Databook is secondary canon.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> so now jiraiya has such fast handseals that he can make a shadow clone before itachi with a sharingan and top tier reflexes can realize? and itachi would be able to summon a susanoo the moment he sees the light from the giant rasengan. it would be like a spirit bomb, none of the enemies are too slow to react since you can see it from a mile away



do you mean the whole 1 seal for shadow clones? cause god knows you have to super fast to do 1 seal,right?

and does susanno tank senpo oodama rasengan? maybe,but there is no proof either way. it has just as much chance as being destroyed as it does taking it.


----------



## Shattering (Jul 31, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> do you mean the whole 1 seal for shadow clones? cause god knows you have to super fast to do 1 seal,right?
> 
> and does susanno tank senpo oodama rasengan? maybe,but there is no proof either way. it has just as much chance as being destroyed as it does taking it.



Ribs Susano'o > Chou-Oodama Rasengan






ZE said:


> SM requires prep. I thought Pa already told us that when he said you can't enter SM when you're alone in the battlefield.
> 
> 
> Gaara knows SM? Since when?



Gaara doesn't know but it's the same



Naruto enters RM when he can't enter SM, it has been the same the whole war arc.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Ribs Susano'o > Chou-Oodama Rasengan



is it now? and what exactly leads you to think that? and i said SENPO oodama rasengan. big difference.

and you think something that tsunade and A broke is going to stand up to that?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Jiraiya in character will never use Yomi Numa right of the bat. 

In character Jiraiya (Not the fan made one.) is a guy who poses around before any fight, he did this against Nagato, the one with the legendary Rinnegan. 

This of course isn't smart thing to do if your opponent is Itachi who makes every second count and he has can one hit KO move that can hit you in a blink of an eye.


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## Shattering (Jul 31, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> is it now? and what exactly leads you to think that? and i said SENPO oodama rasengan. big difference.



Manga panel? 



sinjin long said:


> and you think something that tsunade and A broke is going to stand up to that?



My english it's not good enought to explain you why a punch it's not the same than a huge ball, you could guess it by yourself.

But anyway ribs susano'o is a shity susano'o, itachi/sasuke/madara can make Susano'o more resistant.


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## Rios (Jul 31, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Some Itachi wankers/fans think Itachi have hight stamina to able to spam Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo to no end.
> 
> Itachi stamina in DB: 2.5 , in the fight vs Hebi Sasuke clearly show that  Itachi sucks in stamina - chakra and is very dangerous for him to use MS jutsus.



Doesnt matter because he ends the fight with one MS jutsu. All Jiraiya can really cause is some annoying eye bleed.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 31, 2012)

hmph said:


> Only to land in the swamp, because its bigger than the distance he can jump



What stops him from making a bunshin to land on and jump again?


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## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Gaara doesn't know but it's the same
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto enters RM when he can't enter SM, it has been the same the whole war arc.



Because he can't use SM without prep. It is easier for him to use RM than to use SM. Naruto uses more normal rasengans than he uses the FRS. Does that mean rasengan>FRS?


----------



## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

That picture shows rasengan drilling through susano'o, actually. It'd get through if someone could buy time for the attack.



> What stops him from making a bunshin to land on and jump again?



Nothing, but he won't win a stamina contest with Jiraiya.


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## Shattering (Jul 31, 2012)

hmph said:


> Nothing, but he won't win a stamina contest with Jiraiya.



Jraiya starts in base, Itachi too, Itachi swaps to MS and uses amaterasu, stamina it's not need.

GG


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## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> Jraiya starts in base, Itachi too, Itachi swaps to MS and uses amaterasu, stamina it's not need.
> 
> GG



Ah, using self-sacrificing techniques right off the bat eh? Well I guess that means bloodlusted and full knowledge, and the knowledge that HM Jiraiya will crush him. But, see, that leads to Jiraiya to start by summoning Gamaken, who takes Amaterasu on his shield and throws it in Itachi's face. Then Itachi has to react, using Susano'o, while Jiraiya casts Yomi Numa, and then Itachi is dead.


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## Ghost (Jul 31, 2012)

hmph said:


> Nothing, but he won't win a stamina contest with Jiraiya.



Jiraiya is already lying on the ground brain dead from Tsukuyomi.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Manga panel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are you trying to say that a punch is more powerful than rasengan/variants?

cause i mean,wow naruto has really been wasting his time then,i mean he should just be punching people.

the manga panel you provided was oodama rasengan,for the sake of the conversation i said senpo oodama rasengan,which just by the fact that it is a sage technique increases its power substantially.

im aware of that manga panel,which is why i clarified SENPO.


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## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> iraiya is already lying on the ground brain dead from Tsukuyomi.



So, you're acknowleding Yomi Numa is a death sentence. Good. Its far more broken than any MS technique but Kamui after all.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> All the translations I read, including the viz one, indicate that they were talking about Jiraiya. Also, if you watch the anime, the fansubs also translated that part as if they were talking about Jiraiya.
> 
> That put together with Itachi and Kisame’s actions, I think there’s no doubt Jiraiya was the one being mentioned.


Still, there were about 4 translators who upon asking thought the subject was Kulama. There's not much use debating this anymore though, since I asked multiple translators, including ones that say the subject is Jiraiya, and even they admitted that the original Japanese is ambiguous. You can either take my word on it or investigate yourself.



ZE said:


> And, Sniffer, is it really that hard to see at this point that the relevance the SM holds in this manga isn’t gonna go away just because you want it to happen?
> 
> Geez, dude. Give it a rest. It’s so obvious at this point that SM will be how Naruto will manage to defeat the final villain. You need to read more manga where the main characters manage to use the power of nature. That’s how it always ends. And now that it’s even more obvious that one of RS’ strongest jutsus was SM, just like I’ve been predicting due to his sennin name, you can bet Naruto is gonna use it in the upcoming fights.


I don't want SM to go away. I just knew it would take a back seat for Kyubi powers the moment Naruto went with Pa. That much I predicted. *If* Naruto combines SM with the KCM/BM for the final villain, it'd probably be after he defeated Sasuke.



ZE said:


> Overall, SM Naruto had better display than RM Naruto.
> 
> SM Naruto:
> -Beats Pain
> ...


You are not actually suggesting SM is superior to KCM, are you?


----------



## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Still, there were about 4 translators who upon asking thought the subject was Kulama. There's not much use debating this anymore though, since I asked multiple translators, including ones that say the subject is Jiraiya, and even they admitted that the original Japanese is ambiguous. You can either take my word on it or investigate yourself.


It's ambiguous, but the most likely subject is Jiraiya. 



> I don't want SM to go away. I just knew it would take a back seat for Kyubi powers the moment Naruto went with Pa. That much I predicted.


You knew that? How does it feel to be wrong? Because so far, ever since Naruto got RM, SM is still ahead. 



> You are not actually suggesting SM is superior to KCM, are you?



Let?s see what the manga tell us:

-Orochimaru always wanted SM
-Shikaku: now that Naruto has learned SM, he?s on another level 
-Kyuubi: ?what power he has!? ? in reference to SM Naruto.
-Sasuke manages to equal part one KN1 with a downgrade version of SM. CS is at least= KN1
-Pain: ?the risk of senjutsu is proportional to its power? ? when he sees Fat Pain turning into a frog
-Kabuto fought two MS users with it

Now, after this, why is it so bad to think that SM Naruto is stronger? Mind you, RM may be a better power up because it has no risks. You can spam it and use it at will. But that doesn?t mean it is stronger than SM. In a direct confrontation, I could very well see SM being more useful.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> ..and Naruto overestimates himself. Itachi called him on that one.


Not when it comes to clashing with Sasuke. He respects Sasuke as a rival and his estimations of Sasuke's strength have typically been accurate. Furthermore you underestimate the importance of Naruto reading Sasuke's heart and thus knowing how strong he was.



> ..except Tobi said Sasuke had detoriated faster because he pulled out Susano too fast.


Sure, but you have to bring out Susano'o to train with it and master it. Sasuke did it quickly others will master MS slowly, but the result remains the same. 



> Greater strength? Anyhow, it's not completely obsolete, but it's taking a clear back seat to KCM. Why not admit that?


Of course it's being used less than KCM, because it can not be activated as easily as KCM. It's the same reason BM is used less than KCM and KCM is used less than base mode. Being used more/less doesn't reflect at all on how valuable a certain power is.



> I'd like arguments to go with these statements.


Which statements? That CS is a far inferior power up to perfected SM and losing it would not be as great of a loss as a shinobi losing SM? If so than Kabuto already establishes that for us. Or are you asking for arguments that Sasuke's body increased in strength while training MS? If so than Tobi established this for us during the Danzo fight and there were hints at it throughout the kages arc.



> .and Naruto had to evolve to a new mode to achieve the feats he did.


Now your just feigning ignorance of my point in absence of a real argument, ether that or you are focusing in on the wrong part. I will repeat one more time the issue here is that RM & BM were achieved by Naruto continuing to increase his mastery of the same power. While on the other hand Sasuke can not achieve Mangekyo or Eternal Mangekyo by continued mastery of three tome sharingan. He needs to achieve an entirely new dojutsu and implant someone else's eyes. 



> Hebi suddenly has no counter part and somehow falls outside of Kishi's idea of progression as a pair and modes and powers Kishi gives different names somehow are one and the same. You are making it a lot harder than it has to be and yet you tell me I'm grasping at straws. Ironic.


Sigh...how does Hebi Sasuke have a counter part of Naruto did not gain a power to only loose it? Kishi had no reason to give Naruto a counter part power to CS/Hebi in Part II, because Sasuke lost those powers. To do so would only leave the rivals unbalanced or force Kishimoto to have an entire arc spent on Naruto gaining a certain power only to loose it just like Sasuke, which clearly Kishimoto didn't feel like wasting time on. 

Nowhere is it stated in the manga that every incarnation of Sasuke and Naruto have a counter part. All that matters is that the end of the day the two are rivals who always end up around each other's "level" in strength. Kishi accomplished this by replacing Sasuke's Hebi/CS powers with a more powerful power up MS to match Naruto's more powerful power up SM.



> For one 50% FRS is again a distinction you made up.


Oh really:

DB III, " Even so, currently it's only 50% completed."
Here



> Also, that manipulation doesn't hold water. FRS was something Naruto had way before SM, whereas Enton came after/with MS. The progression doesn't fit, it'd be too late.


He had it, but at the same time he didn't since it was a labeled a Kinjutsu that should not be used before SM. Naruto even says in chapter 415 that maybe he can do it now referring to using/completing FRS. Not to mention this is the same chapter that Sasuke seems to learn about his power to manipulate the black flames. 



> ..and BM supports FRS too.


Okay and you point is what exactly? My point is that your model has an even more flawed progression with Kirin. If your trying to say normal Kirin = 50% FRS and MS powered up Kirin = 100% FRS. Than turning around and saying MS is the power up after SM, than the progression also doesn't fit, because it'd be too late. At least in the case of FRS it was not officially completed till SM.



> He would use BM if only he could.


He'd probably opt to use SM much more if it was as easy to achieve as KCM. It's the same thing as BM in the sense that it can't be activated as easily as KCM. 



> That's exactly like me saying that if Naruto lost SM it wouldn't be so detrimental since he has KCM to make up for most of it now.


But you would be wrong. Without SM he wouldn't have defeat Sandaime Raikage, that right there is something detrimental. He also wouldn't have been able to free Yonbi or the other 5 Bijuu from Tobi's control. Again something very detrimental. The problem with your line of thinking is you greatly underestimate SM.



> You are not giving CS the proper respect though.


How so? CS strengthens Sasuke's body and gives him flight. Well he strengthened his body through training MS and he has better flight with his hawk summons. 



> SM is an incredible power-up, it's just that KCM can almost completely replace it. SM still has some things over KCM like sensing and reflexes


SM also adds Frog Katas a different means of attack than KCM has. Greater physical strength, which was crucial in freeing Yonbi from Tobi's control. It also adds natural energy something which counters attempts to absorb SM Naruto's chakra, which allowed him to overcome Hungry Ghost Path, something again KCM would not be capable of. SM also can be used to  recover Naruto's chakra. On top of that there is the question of if KCM can expand FRS the same way SM Naruto can and we don't know if KCM Naruto is as durable as SM Naruto.

So no KCM can not simply replace SM in terms of abilities granted, nor in terms of effect on battles as I showed with the Sandaime Raikage, Yonbi, and 5 other Bijuu examples.



> but indeed that is as useful as a Kusanagi and poison immunity.


Now your just trolling or extremely misguided. When has poison immunity or Ksunagi ever decided the outcome of major battles for Sasuke after achieving MS? Not to mention that abilities that SM grants are vastly more beneficial even to current Naruto than Ksunagi and immunity to some poisons are to Sasuke. Oh and than there is the fact that these abilities belong to base Sasuke and there is no reason to even compare then to SM Naruto's abilities.



> Had KCM not been a replacement and had it stacked then you would've had a point.


First off you making the assumption they can't be stacked in the first place, when personally I wouldn't be surprised if we see this in the future, when Naruto gains more experience with KCM or BM. Second you would have a point if KCM actually replaced SM, but it didn't the Sandaime Raikage, Yonbi, and other bijuu's require SM for Naruto to win against are more than enough proof of that.



> It's a straight forward view, that doesn't require to ignore Hebi powers as something that doesn't belong in the progressing as a pair, or requires me to view one power up of Naruto's being equivalent to one of Sasuke's in a later one. I'm merely following to sequence and noticing the parallels. You are finding parallels in order to make the sequence work, which forces you to dismiss Hebi to make it fit. My view is simple, you are making it harder than it needs to be. So much for grasping at straws.


LOLOLOLOL

You say i'm the one finding parallels, yet the comparison I am making between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke is the one that is directly compared in the manga cannon. While never is there a statement or scene in the manga comparing Hebi Sasuke to SM Naruto. So the entire comparison of SM Naruto to Hebi Sasuke is based on shit you found, which you believe supports this comparison. I do the same with some of the comparison I find between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke, but the reason I compare them in the first place is because the manga cannon compared them. I don't care if you find comparisons, but don't sit here and call the kettle black, ether that or leave out all of your own found comparisons in which case all we're left with is the ones the manga made about SM Naruto and MS Sasuke.

I'm not dismissing Hebi Sasuke the author dismissed Sasuke's hebi powers when he had them taken away from him. Your comparison forces us to ether believe Naruto will be much stronger than Sasuke when they fight because he retains SM while Hebi Sasuke lacks Hebi powers or forces us to downgrade SM to the point of considering it only equal to some poison immunity and Ksunagi sword despite it still retaining great importance in most of Naruto's main battles even after gaining KCM. That is a flawed approach. 

Also quite clearly my view is the simplest because I am comparing the two incarnations of these characters that the manga itself compared. Your view is vastly more convoluted since it rest on the belief that Kishimoto wished for readers to ignore the comparison made between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke, and instead compare Hebi Sasuke with SM Naruto, two incarnations which were never compared in the manga cannon. Than it requires readers to believe that Kishi wishes us to see SM as so insignificant after Naruto gains KCM that it is only equal to some poison immunity and Ksunagi sword, despite Kishi at the same time showing it had a huge impact on Naruto defeating Yonbi, the other 5 Bijuu, and Sandaime Raikage.

This is not even getting into the feats, which of course you don't want to even begin to discuss, because your argument crumbles completely in the overwhelming difference of SM Naruto's portray feat wise vs Hebi Sasuke's.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:
			
		

> Let’s see what the manga tell us:
> 
> -Orochimaru always wanted SM
> -Shikaku: now that Naruto has learned SM, he’s on another level
> ...



SM Naruto was raped by Banshou Ten'in/FuujutsuKyuuin. KCM Naruto handily dealt with Banshou Ten'in/huge rock.

This made Nagato compliment Naruto, to which he replied "I'm stronger than I was when I fought Pain."

It's just common sense that Naruto would gain a new form and be stronger in it. He doesn't look as impressive because he's fighting Healthy Nagato/Rinnegan Tobi and getting destroyed.

Ever since Naruto gained KCM, utilizing SM is something he only does when he needs its sensing ability/cannot use KCM. Naruto has effectively dropped SM as being a contender for his own full power form.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> You knew that? How does it feel to be wrong? Because so far, ever since Naruto got RM, SM is still ahead.


Not really.



ZE said:


> Let’s see what the manga tell us:
> 
> -Orochimaru always wanted SM
> -Shikaku: now that Naruto has learned SM, he’s on another level
> ...


You are basically saying that aside from its weaknesses SM matches up well to KCM. =/


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

Omg.. Wankers saying SM > RM.


----------



## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> SM Naruto was raped by Banshou Ten'in/FuujutsuKyuuin. KCM Naruto handily dealt with Banshou Ten'in/huge rock.


RM Naruto was raped by FuujutsuKyuuin+Soul rip.
SM Naruto one-shotted Human Realm and turned Fat Pain into a frog. 



> This made Nagato compliment Naruto, to which he replied "I'm stronger than I was when I fought Pain."


It?s only natural for a naruto with both RM and SM to be stronger than a naruto with just SM.



> It's just common sense that Naruto would gain a new form and be stronger in it. He doesn't look as impressive because he's fighting Healthy Nagato/Rinnegan Tobi and getting destroyed.


He didn't look too impressive against base Itachi or against a distracted Muu.



> Ever since Naruto gained KCM, utilizing SM is something he only does when he needs its sensing ability/cannot use KCM. Naruto has effectively dropped SM as being a contender for his own full power form.


You probably forgot Naruto cannot use the SM whenever he wants. 



Sniffers said:


> You are basically saying that aside from its weaknesses SM matches up well to KCM. =/



The stronger the jutsus, the bigger the risks. That's what Kishi does.


----------



## principito (Jul 31, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> okay. well lets put some context to it.
> 
> let's say they were talking about naruto/kyuubi- so immediately after conversing about how dangerous he his,and that kisame isn't even in his league,and itachi would die or draw even with back up, they just all non-chalantly walk up to his door,knock,and say "hey,you're coming with us".
> 
> ...



This pretty much sets clear the debate whether they were talking about jiraya or naruto....

still I dont know how someone's idiocy might want to interpret those dialogues as kisame refering to Naruto....

that's why the manga makes no fucking sense to some people


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:
			
		

> RM Naruto was raped by FuujutsuKyuuin+Soul rip.
> SM Naruto one-shotted Human Realm and turned Fat Pain into a frog.



KCM Naruto was raped by _invisible Chameleon summon_+soul rip+Fuujutsu Kyuuin, all from Healthy Nagato whose Rinnegan abilities are much stronger than Pain's.

Tendou and Gakidou Pain by themselves essentially beat SM Naruto. Quickly, too.

_What beat SM Naruto was basically tried against KCM, and it didn't work._ This and the statement are supposed to highlight Naruto's increase in strength.



> It’s only natural for a naruto with both RM and SM to be stronger than a naruto with just SM.



He was referencing the feat that provoked Nagato's compliment. Handling that attack was not something that he could have done in SM.



> He didn't look too impressive against base Itachi or against a distracted Muu.



He wasn't serious against Itachi, and he did well against Muu.



> You probably forgot Naruto cannot use the SM whenever he wants.



Well, good thing he doesn't really want to use it anymore.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 31, 2012)

How did RM Naruto and SM Naruto come until he debate?


----------



## hmph (Jul 31, 2012)

> Tendou and Gakidou Pain by themselves essentially beat SM Naruto. Quickly, too.



Y'know, people spout this but SM Naruto beat Tendo post-CT. Bluntly, the whole thing where he beat Naruto as Naruto was trying to save Fukusaku was luck for Deva.



> How did RM Naruto and SM Naruto come until he debate?



Someone is trying to claim SM Naruto = Hebi Sasuke, and that MS Sasuke was beyond him. And that the manga statements stating he was wrong should be ignored because it doesn't fit his views. And that lead to claiming that like how Hebi Sasuke lost those powers Naruto never uses SM anymore, despite him using it all the time, for once again the manga should be ignored when it doesn't fit his views.


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## Akitō (Jul 31, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> In character Jiraiya (Not the fan made one.) is a guy who poses around before any fight, he did this against Nagato, the one with the legendary Rinnegan.



Even though this argument doesn't really make sense when looking at the context of those incidents that you presented, I'm actually not too bothered that you're bringing it up because it indicates that you acknowledge that Jiraiya _can_ defeat Itachi — it's just a matter of whether he'll use his tools properly. 

I can agree with you to an extent, though: I do believe that Itachi is the better fighter. He's more clinical than Jiraiya, although the latter is also one of the most efficient fighters in the manga evidenced by his dismantling of Konan. But you're under the assumption that a Jiraiya who knows that Itachi can spew out black flames very quickly and has a lethal genjutsu will adopt his laid-back nature. We've seen how he is when things get serious: he trapped Kisame and Itachi right when things started to get sticky, and he resorted to sage mode against Pain when he realized that his base strength wasn't enough. 

Using this type of argument tells me that you don't actually think that Itachi's much stronger than Jiraiya — you just think he'll use his trumps a lot faster. The problem that you face is that a lot of the instances you cite of Jiraiya acting foolishly were merely for the plot and its need for a bit of comedy. Why is it that nobody's ever taken advantage of his comedic acts? Because of the same reason that he's doing them in the first place: plot. 

Usually I'd feel awkward ignoring an opposing argument because of story-telling purposes, but since a significant portion of your argument centers around the excuse of 'plot no jutsu', I've no remorse.


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## Seph (Jul 31, 2012)

Akitō said:


> Even though this argument doesn't really make sense when looking at the context of those incidents that you presented, I'm actually not too bothered that you're bringing it up because it indicates that you acknowledge that Jiraiya _can_ defeat Itachi ? it's just a matter of whether he'll use his tools properly.
> 
> I can agree with you to an extent, though: I do believe that Itachi is the better fighter. He's more clinical than Jiraiya, although the latter is also one of the most efficient fighters in the manga evidenced by his dismantling of Konan. But you're under the assumption that a Jiraiya who knows that Itachi can spew out black flames very quickly and has a lethal genjutsu will adopt his laid-back nature. We've seen how he is when things get serious: he trapped Kisame and Itachi right when things started to get sticky, and he resorted to sage mode against Pain when he realized that his base strength wasn't enough.
> 
> ...



He has a point; he's not talking about "plot no jutsu." What he's trying to say is that the in character Jiraiya is an idiot who poses during battle and makes a fool out of himself, leaving him open for an attack. A genius like Itachi would easily take advantage of that opportunity in a serious battle.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Not when it comes to clashing with Sasuke. He respects Sasuke as a rival and his estimations of Sasuke's strength have typically been accurate. Furthermore you underestimate the importance of Naruto reading Sasuke's heart and thus knowing how strong he was.


..and he did read Sasuke's heart and decided he needed KCM. He also knew that Sasuke did not see him as an equal, so you can drop the Sasuke-opted-for-EMS-thing.



Turrin said:


> Sure, but you have to bring out Susano'o to train with it and master it. Sasuke did it quickly others will master MS slowly, but the result remains the same.


No, the results wouldn't be the same otherwise Tobi wouldn't say Sasuke was too soon with it.



Turrin said:


> Of course it's being used less than KCM, because it can not be activated as easily as KCM. It's the same reason BM is used less than KCM and KCM is used less than base mode. Being used more/less doesn't reflect at all on how valuable a certain power is.


Reliability makes it valuable, but I see your point. Still, you're not actually trying to say KCM is not a superior power up compared to SM, are you?



Turrin said:


> Which statements? That CS is a far inferior power up to perfected SM and losing it would not be as great of a loss as a shinobi losing SM? If so than Kabuto already establishes that for us. Or are you asking for arguments that Sasuke's body increased in strength while training MS? If so than Tobi established this for us during the Danzo fight and there were hints at it throughout the kages arc.


How is CS basically a non-issue? Wouldn't Sasuke with MS training AND CS be better?



Turrin said:


> Now your just feigning ignorance of my point in absence of a real argument, ether that or you are focusing in on the wrong part. I will repeat one more time the issue here is that RM & BM were achieved by Naruto continuing to increase his mastery of the same power. While on the other hand Sasuke can not achieve Mangekyo or Eternal Mangekyo by continued mastery of three tome sharingan. He needs to achieve an entirely new dojutsu and implant someone else's eyes.


Kulama had to be freed for BM while KCM only required a portion of the chakra to be stolen. If it's "_all just Kulama's chakra_" then I guess KCM isn't a power up either as Naruto had access to it since part I.



Turrin said:


> Sigh...how does Hebi Sasuke have a counter part of Naruto did not gain a power to only loose it? Kishi had no reason to give Naruto a counter part power to CS/Hebi in Part II, because Sasuke lost those powers. To do so would only leave the rivals unbalanced or force Kishimoto to have an entire arc spent on Naruto gaining a certain power only to loose it just like Sasuke, which clearly Kishimoto didn't feel like wasting time on.


You focus on the power up themselves while you should be focusing on the user. Hebi Sasuke or SM Naruto. Sasuke lost the Hebi powers, when moving to his MS Sasuke incarnation. Naruto moved to his KCM incarnation, where he still could call upon SM from time to time. Of course as you admit, SM is not nearly as practical as KCM.. and since both powers don't stack, it's not hard to see KCM Naruto is not superior to MS Sasuke even if he kept powers from his frog legacy.



Turrin said:


> Nowhere is it stated in the manga that every incarnation of Sasuke and Naruto have a counter part. All that matters is that the end of the day the two are rivals who always end up around each other's "level" in strength. Kishi accomplished this by replacing Sasuke's Hebi/CS powers with a more powerful power up MS to match Naruto's more powerful power up SM.


Then they won't be progressing as a pair as one gets more powers on the way than the other.



Turrin said:


> He had it, but at the same time he didn't since it was a labeled a Kinjutsu that should not be used before SM. Naruto even says in chapter 415 that maybe he can do it now referring to using/completing FRS. Not to mention this is the same chapter that Sasuke seems to learn about his power to manipulate the black flames.


It's dangerous, but he had it. Kinjutsu get used in battles, it's not like we don't count them.



Turrin said:


> Okay and you point is what exactly? My point is that your model has an even more flawed progression with Kirin. If your trying to say normal Kirin = 50% FRS and MS powered up Kirin = 100% FRS. Than turning around and saying MS is the power up after SM, than the progression also doesn't fit, because it'd be too late. At least in the case of FRS it was not officially completed till SM.


My point is that you saying that I must put MS=SM because Kirin is enhanced by MS is false, since KCM also enhanced Naruto's counterpart jutsu.



Turrin said:


> But you would be wrong. Without SM he wouldn't have defeat Sandaime Raikage, that right there is something detrimental. He also wouldn't have been able to free Yonbi or the other 5 Bijuu from Tobi's control. Again something very detrimental. The problem with your line of thinking is you greatly underestimate SM.


Kusanagi sword also gets used every time. I guess it is more important than you thought, right?



Turrin said:


> How so? CS strengthens Sasuke's body and gives him flight. Well he strengthened his body through training MS and he has better flight with his hawk summons.


How about a strenghtened body PLUS CS increases? CS made Sasuke overpower Itachi's Katon, it gave him protection via wings, snakes to call upon, increased movement speed and more. But who cares, right?



Turrin said:


> SM also adds Frog Katas a different means of attack than KCM has. Greater physical strength, which was crucial in freeing Yonbi from Tobi's control. It also adds natural energy something which counters attempts to absorb SM Naruto's chakra, which allowed him to overcome Hungry Ghost Path, something again KCM would not be capable of. SM also can be used to  recover Naruto's chakra. On top of that there is the question of if KCM can expand FRS the same way SM Naruto can and we don't know if KCM Naruto is as durable as SM Naruto.
> 
> So no KCM can not simply replace SM in terms of abilities granted, nor in terms of effect on battles as I showed with the Sandaime Raikage, Yonbi, and 5 other Bijuu examples.


Greater strength I doubt. Recovery and sensing are the main things it has been used for. Speed, strength, FRS, multiple clones, etc. are all accounted for.



Turrin said:


> Now your just trolling or extremely misguided. When has poison immunity or Ksunagi ever decided the outcome of major battles for Sasuke after achieving MS? Not to mention that abilities that SM grants are vastly more beneficial even to current Naruto than Ksunagi and immunity to some poisons are to Sasuke. Oh and than there is the fact that these abilities belong to base Sasuke and there is no reason to even compare then to SM Naruto's abilities.


Turrin, quit the "_you must be trolling,_" "_you are misguided,_" etc. crap. It doesn't help you and only ruins the discussion. I've snipped out many and let many slide, but it's only getting worse.

The kusanagi has been instrumental in the Kabuto fight. It has also been used against Danzou. Sasuke also retrieved Suigetsu's sword with the Kusanagi which would later save his life. Naruto basically got one-shotted by a poison Sasuke is immune against.

Again, alone SM shits on these things Sasuke has, but since most of it can be replaced by KCM and only sensing and recovery remain...



Turrin said:


> First off you making the assumption they can't be stacked in the first place, when personally I wouldn't be surprised if we see this in the future, when Naruto gains more experience with KCM or BM. Second you would have a point if KCM actually replaced SM, but it didn't the Sandaime Raikage, Yonbi, and other bijuu's require SM for Naruto to win against are more than enough proof of that.


Naruto combining it in the future has nothing to do with how he is now.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You say i'm the one finding parallels, yet the comparison I am making between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke is the one that is directly compared in the manga cannon. While never is there a statement or scene in the manga comparing Hebi Sasuke to SM Naruto. So the entire comparison of SM Naruto to Hebi Sasuke is based on shit you found, which you believe supports this comparison. I do the same with some of the comparison I find between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke, but the reason I compare them in the first place is because the manga cannon compared them. I don't care if you find comparisons, but don't sit here and call the kettle black, ether that or leave out all of your own found comparisons in which case all we're left with is the ones the manga made about SM Naruto and MS Sasuke.
> 
> I'm not dismissing Hebi Sasuke the author dismissed Sasuke's hebi powers when he had them taken away from him. Your comparison forces us to ether believe Naruto will be much stronger than Sasuke when they fight because he retains SM while Hebi Sasuke lacks Hebi powers or forces us to downgrade SM to the point of considering it only equal to some poison immunity and Ksunagi sword despite it still retaining great importance in most of Naruto's main battles even after gaining KCM. That is a flawed approach.
> 
> ...


Turrin, you say CS is not really missed for Sasuke because he basically got strengthened via MS training, however, me saying KCM overlaps greatly with SM is suddenly lulzworthy? You are being very hypocritical again. I'm not saying SM equals Kusanagi sword. I've told you like twenty times now and still you insist on repeating my point in a completely wrong way. Possibly because you can't counter otherwise or because you would be hypocritical in the way I explained above.

Also, you still deal with seeing power ups as a numerical up, like +10 for SM and +15 for KCM vs Sasuke's +15 for MS. It doesn't work that way. Naruto can either enter KCM or SM the way he is now, they don't stack. If you argue that Naruto has more options having both ups then perhaps a +20 is what it would be, but maybe Sasuke's MS was a +20 too then. What matters is that in the end the users are equal as a whole. So stop saying Naruto has to be stronger than Sasuke because he retained SM, because it doesn't HAVE to be that way at all. (The numbers are arbitrary and just to show how it doesn't work that way.)

The only time they were compared was when SM Naruto was (slightly) stronger, while Sasuke still had a ways to go with the training of his MS. The other time was when the destined future battle was alluded to, but we've been over that.



Any next response will not be a point-by-point one as this has gotten much too long again already. Either you can go back to the main points or I will. Assuming any of us feel like responding beyond this point.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 31, 2012)

Hebi Sasuke is waay to underrated.

Sasuke himself was aware that Orochimaru was not match for Itachi, and  was only confident that he would face Itachi if he had reached *at least* Oro's level or higher

Of course Sasuke still failed to fully grasp the full extent of Itachi's abilities. But if Sasuke knew Oro was no match for Itachi why on earth would he dare face had he not *at least* reached that level

in the way SM Naruto "surpassed" Jiraya, the same way Hebi Sasuke "surpassed" Orochimaru


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## ZE (Jul 31, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> KCM Naruto was raped by _invisible Chameleon summon_+soul rip+Fuujutsu Kyuuin, all from Healthy Nagato whose Rinnegan abilities are much stronger than Pain's.


Healthy Nagato with mobility problems used Animal Realm (raped by SM), Fat Pain (raped by SM) and Human Realm (raped by SM) in order to beat RM Naruto. Deva wasn?t even needed. Deva was needed to beat SM Naruto.

And no, RM Naruto didn't do better against Nagato than SM Naruto against Pain.



> _What beat SM Naruto was basically tried against KCM, and it didn't work._ This and the statement are supposed to highlight Naruto's increase in strength.
> 
> He was referencing the feat that provoked Nagato's compliment. Handling that attack was not something that he could have done in SM.




You think SM Naruto cannot tank a rock being thrown at him? Not sure about that. But I?m not here to force you my opinion. If you believe a big rock hurts more than giant summons taking you along with huge buildings, suit yourself.



> Well, good thing he doesn't really want to use it anymore.


Well, good thing he uses it all the time even though it has a lot of drawbacks. 



hitokugutsu said:


> in the way SM Naruto "surpassed" Jiraya, the same way Hebi Sasuke "surpassed" Orochimaru



SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato, the same way Hebi Sasuke surpassed Orochimaru and Itachi... oh, wait...


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2012)

Akitō said:


> Even though this argument doesn't really make sense when looking at the context of those incidents that you presented, I'm actually not too bothered that you're bringing it up because it indicates that you acknowledge that Jiraiya _can_ defeat Itachi — it's just a matter of whether he'll use his tools properly.



I brought it up to stop the Yomi Numa discussion as it was going no where and I wanted to move the discussion on to something more important. The in character flow that will be Jiraiya's downfall against a genius who makes every second count. (This part was included in my original post which you left out when quoting my post) As I personally believe a fight with Jiraiya is going to end quicker than a fight with Orochimaru. Therefore there is no point of having discussion about Yomi Numa, Frog Song and SM in general. 


> I can agree with you to an extent, though: I do believe that Itachi is the better fighter. He's more clinical than Jiraiya, although the latter is also one of the most efficient fighters in the manga evidenced by his dismantling of Konan.



Jiraiya had knowledge that oil will one shot Konan and decided to use it. I wouldn't really use that as an argument as Jiraiya could have done the same exact thing to Gaara. When you are aware of someone's weakness in battle, you will use it if you want to win.



> But you're under the assumption that a Jiraiya who knows that Itachi can spew out black flames very quickly and has a lethal genjutsu will adopt his laid-back nature. We've seen how he is when things get serious: he trapped Kisame and Itachi right when things started to get sticky, and he resorted to sage mode against Pain when he realized that his base strength wasn't enough.



Jiraiya acted goofy against a Rinnegan user, you don't think he will do the same against Itachi? This is his in character flow that will be a very important factor in his defeat. Orochimaru's arrogance is what caused his downfall, same thing applies to Jiraiya. His too Jiraiya goofy, he poses during battle and makes a fool out of himself. That will leave an opening for a attack, which is not a good news if your opponent is an efficient fighter like Itachi who makes every seconds count. 


> Using this type of argument tells me that you don't actually think that Itachi's much stronger than Jiraiya — you just think he'll use his trumps a lot faster. The problem that you face is that a lot of the instances you cite of Jiraiya acting foolishly were merely for the plot and its need for a bit of comedy.



Blaming it on plot isn't going to change anything, I've seen this used a lot. Everything goes according to plot, Kishi has made this a part of Jiraiya's personality. Why are you finding it so hard to accept that, he is always like that, does things without thinking. 



> Why is it that nobody's ever taken advantage of his comedic acts? Because of the same reason that he's doing them in the first place: plot.



He only had like one major battle. 



> Usually I'd feel awkward ignoring an opposing argument because of story-telling purposes, but since a significant portion of your argument centers around the excuse of 'plot no jutsu', I've no remorse.



Call it a PNJ all you like, you can never change Jiraiya's character. 

Are you going to say Orochimaru's arrogance is part of a plot too?


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 31, 2012)

Seph said:


> He has a point; he's not talking about "plot no jutsu." What he's trying to say is that the in character Jiraiya is an idiot who poses during battle and makes a fool out of himself, leaving him open for an attack. A genius like Itachi would easily take advantage of that opportunity in a serious battle.



Jiraiya isn't an idiot, that's the thing. Pein was also "smart enough" to take advantage of Jiraiya's antics and got a boot in the face, showing that Jiraiya is actually focused on what's going on even if you think he isn't. Misdirection is a part of deception, skills of a ninja.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato, the same way Hebi Sasuke surpassed Orochimaru and Itachi... oh, wait...



SM Naruto surpassed Minato? WTF am I reading? Surely you dont mean that panel where Naruto Rasengan'd Asura Path and then Jiraya & Minato' figures can be seen?

We had that shit before when Naruto learned Futon: Rasengan. A jutsu Minato never completed. And we saw the same shit



Doesn't mean Naruto was better then Minato when he learned that jutsu. It meant he was able to complete a the jutsu, while Minato could no do back then. Same with SM. Naruto perfected it, while Jiraya never mastered it. Hence the comment of the Old Frog that he "surpassed" those who became for him

Unless you truly believe that SM Naruto "surpassed Minato" 

Despite the assraping we saw Minato giving Tobi. And the sheer amount of haxxed skills Minato has.

Seriously though SM Naruto > Minato is almost as retarded as Jiraya > Itach + Kisame + Backup


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## Cyphon (Jul 31, 2012)

Panos said:


> So it is still Turrin, Cyphon and someone called Vice(*who has for a sig: Hate Itachi? Join this club*) arguing that Jiraiya is just as strong as Itachi. Years do not bring along wisdom I guess.



To be fair there continue to be new Itachi fans who refuse to accept what the manga has told us so we have to continue to teach those less fortunate in common sense and general reading comprehension.

It seems you should also stick around and learn some things as you seem to have little clue as to what you are talking about. 



Panos said:


> Itachi lied.



Sure he lied. Just not about Jiraiya. Or if you think he did, prove it.

Kind of rhetorical statement because I know you can't. You just spout nonsense like everyone else who refuses to face reality because it doesn't sit well with your desires. 



> Apart from that the feats and manga portrayal put him above Jiraiya.



Feats are ambiguous so there is nothing definitive that would put him above Jiraiya. Unless you can show different mutual opponents to prove superiority.

Which again, I know you can't so more just rhetorical to point out how little knowledge you have on the manga and how poorly you debate. 

As for portrayal well....We already know what Itachi said. Not to mention someone stronger than Itachi (Pain) also admitting Jiraiya could beat him.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2012)

@Sniffers

I say your trolling because your trying to say the advantages that SM grants Naruto post KCM powers up is equal to the advantages that Ksunagi and immunity to some poisons grants Sasuke post MS power up. Your also trying to say after Naruto gained KCM that SM became obsolete; and no i'm not misrepresenting your argument because I can easily show that you we're arguing that BS:

Sniffers, *"When it was just SM, no, but with KCM most of SM became obsolete."*

Anyone other than total Uchiha-fanboys (or perhaps more accurately other trolls) would think that your trolling with an argument like this. Don't believe me well I am more than willing to prove it to you by making a thread polling the forum if you want. The fact that you continue to defend this point, just makes it seem even more like trolling. 

Another argument you bring up in your recent post which seems like trolling, is saying that I'm basing my comments on a numerical system, something you made up entirely on your own and than even more laughable tried to use your own made up numerical system to argue your point, after already complaining that the manga does not work on a numerical system LOL. 

Until you stop trolling (or close to it) with these types of arguments I don't feel their is any merit in continuing any kind of reasonable discussion with you. How am I suppose to convince someone that SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, if they are willing to believe that SM only holds as much value as ksunagi sword and immunity to some poisons to current Naruto in-order to try and justify their standpoint? How am I suppose to convince someone who thinks SM is obsolete (or dam close to it) to current Naruto, if the manga canon directly showing SM having a large impact on the outcome of 2 of Naruto's main battles is not enough? How can someone who refuses to even look at the difference in feats between SM Naruto and Hebi Sasuke feats be conviced? etc... 

It's just pointless to continue to discuss shit with someone who underestimates SM to such an insane degree. It's like of course you think Sasuke's Hebi powers are equal to SM, because you outright deny how much it's helped Naruto in the manga cannon, it's feats, and overall portrayal. If your willing to go to that extent to underestimate SM, than there is nothing I or even Kishimoto can show that would make you give SM a fair shake. I'm totally convinced after talking to you that Kishi could continue to show SM being instrumental in Naruto's battle with Tobi and you'd still say it's obsolete and some shit. Hell I think if Kishi showed SM being instrumental in the final Sasuke vs Naruto duel, you'd still be saying this same shit. 

Maybe when you drop the troll (or close to it) arguments we can pick up this conversation, but until than peace out dude.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 31, 2012)

What the fuck am I reading? People are trying to say that the series of panels specifically telling us that SM Naruto surpassed Minato (and Jiraiya) actually means he didn't surpass Minato? (but did surpass Jiraiya?)

What?

Par for the course I suppose in the world of fact denial.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2012)

If SM was not made "obsolete" by KCM then naruto should be using SM right now.

Then fact is Naruto Himself said he was way stronger in KCM then when he fought pein in SM.


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## JPongo (Jul 31, 2012)

Jiraiya's WoF (Will Of Fire) > Itachi's WoF (Will Obviously Fail).


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 31, 2012)

Didn't Naruto use Sage mode while having access to KCM?

Why do people think something that was established needs to be repeated every chapter?


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Didn't Naruto use Sage mode while having access to KCM?
> 
> Why do people think something that was established needs to be repeated every chapter?



That was a clone the real naruto was in BM.


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## sinjin long (Jul 31, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> If SM was not made "obsolete" by KCM then naruto should be using SM right now.
> 
> Then fact is Naruto Himself said he was way stronger in KCM then when he fought pein in SM.



of course kcm is gonna get the majority of panel time as it is his latest powerup,and the culmination of his role as a jinchurrikki.

but that in and of  itself does not make SM obsolete,as naruto has demonstrated just recently vs 3rd raikage,and tobi while dealing with yonbi.

and further demonstrated by kabuto.

SM is still a viable part of naruto's aresenal,that brings with it advantages other modes do not. it is NOT just about strength,its about having more options available,situation dependant.

and just a reminder,don't forget the foreshadowing vs nagato(pain arc) of naruto combining SM with this new KCM,or perhaps even BM as the culmination of everything naruto has.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 31, 2012)

ZE said:


> SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya and Minato, the same way Hebi Sasuke surpassed Orochimaru and Itachi... oh, wait...



I hope you're trolling. Hebi Sasuke did not surpass Itachi in any way.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 31, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> That was a clone the real naruto was in BM.



And that matters...why?


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

@Turrin

In the quote "_most of_" is key, and I'm right, since speed, strength, Jutsu, and more are upgraded with KCM as well... all the while it's easier to get into KCM as you yourself agreed. SM is mostly/only called upon when KCM is not accessible (recovery) or when sensing is specifically required.

You say I troll you for saying KCMs perks largely (not completely) overlap with SM, and yet you wave off CS as not a great power up after Sasuke 'replaced' it with MS training, even though the manga clearly showed CS has been a great power up ever since part I. If you ask how you can take me seriously for the former than you must ask yourself that very same question for the latter.

If the numerical bit is misunderstood then explain to me why Naruto _has_ to be stronger with SM on top his new stuff. Also, Kusanagi and immunity may very well be of lesser value, but as I told you it's about the package. My point is that Orochimaru's legacy is still there and is used often.

Feats? Kakashi shits on preconceived ideas of feats. The characters will do whatever the plot needs them to. You accuse me of underestimating SM and I accuse you of underestimating CS. CS is worse than SM, but it's not so bad that, and I quote you, 

"_it is not that detrimental and can be made up for simply by Sasuke's body becoming stronger as he trained MS._"​
At least I set an actual great power up (KCM) to opposite SM. What do you do? About three battles worth of MS spamming is the equivalent of one of Sasuke's main power ups? I should be asking if *you* are the troll here.


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## JPongo (Jul 31, 2012)

SM to KCM is kinda similiar to MS compared to Rinnegan.

Sure it's an upgrade but the lesser ability still has some usefulness.


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## Vice (Jul 31, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I hope you're trolling. Hebi Sasuke did not surpass Itachi in any way.



Hebi Sasuke was far more impressive than Itachi in every way. It's not hard to win fights win your magic eyeballs grant you cheat code insta-kills. Sasuke had to work and earn every bit of his power up to that point.


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## Bloo (Jul 31, 2012)

Vice said:


> Hebi Sasuke was far more impressive than Itachi in every way. It's not hard to win fights win your magic eyeballs grant you cheat code insta-kills. Sasuke had to work and earn every bit of his power up to that point.


He trained like every other shinobi in the series aside from Danzo and Kabuto. Training doesn't place you instantly above someone in terms of strength. So I don't know why you would think that.

Never mind, just read your signature.


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## Gilgamesh (Jul 31, 2012)

> Sasuke had to work and earn every bit of his power up to that point.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2012)

@Sniffers
I am only responding because you seemingly have now realized how ridiculous that Ksunagi sword claim was.



Sniffers said:


> In the quote "_most of_" is key, and I'm right, since speed, strength, Jutsu, and more are upgraded with KCM as well... all the while it's easier to get into KCM as you yourself agreed. SM is mostly/only called upon when KCM is not accessible (recovery) or when sensing is specifically required.


SM has superior speed to KCM, because SM senses heighten Naruto's reaction time. We directly saw this against Sandaime Raikage.From the official viz translation of chapter 555 pg 13 about why Naruto uses SM instead of KCM against Sandaime Raikage, _"Has a wider sensing range. And it's faster! I just need to get out of the way really fast!"_

It's true that KCM has a beastly shunshin no jutsu, but Naruto can't control it properly in KCM. So at least for now SM is faster and more practical in combat in terms of speed.

In terms of strength SM is also better than KCM. This is why Naruto used SM to push the stake out of Yonbi. Plus we saw KCM Naruto get pushed back by Roshi, his headbutt with Tobi was an equal clash, saw him pushed back by Han, we saw him unable to escape Yonbi's mouth, and Itachi physically blocked his attacks. Clearly KCM is not stronger than SM, which we have seen toss boss summons hundreds of feat into the air, break someones neck killing them with a single ghost punch, when he hits someone he sends them flying into walls shattering them, and someone we have seen pick up and throw Bijuu on their ass. 

How are jutsu more upgraded? KCM's strongest attack is FRS the same as SM's strongest attack. KCM allows for some more rasengan variants and so does SM with the senpou variants. Really I see nothing distinguishing one above the other. Though I will say we don't know if KCM has as great of control over FRS as SM, where it can cause it's expanding effect.

SM also has greater durability than KCM. KCM was damaged by a single one of Ukataka's bubbles and damage from Han kicking him. SM Naruto on the other hand tanked falling head first into spikes and wasn't hurt at all and also tanked Shinra Tensei and was perfectly fine.

So SM grants a-lot more than just sensing and enhanced recovery. 



> You say I troll you for saying KCMs perks largely (not completely) overlap with SM, and yet you wave off CS as not a great power up after Sasuke 'replaced' it with MS training, even though the manga clearly showed CS has been a great power up ever since part I. If you ask how you can take me seriously for the former than you must ask yourself that very same question for the latter.


It's very simple as a power up SM is FAR > CS and anyone who is not trolling can realize that.



> If the numerical bit is misunderstood then explain to me why Naruto has to be stronger with SM on top his new stuff.


It's not a numerical thing in terms of assigning a static number that each power up adds. Like SM = +20 as you said. But it's obvious as all hell that Naruto with SM is stronger than Naruto w/o SM. And again we have been shown Naruto is stronger with SM than w/o it since he wouldn't have won against Sandaime Raikage or Tobi's Rikudo w/o it.



> Also, Kusanagi and immunity may very well be of lesser value, but as I told you it's about the package. My point is that Orochimaru's legacy is still there and is used often.


Who cares if some of Orochimaru's legacy remains. It doesn't change the fact that if Sasuke does not have an equivalent power up to SM, he will be outclassed by Naruto in their final duel.



> Feats? Kakashi shits on preconceived ideas of feats. The characters will do whatever the plot needs them to.


What did you use to come to the conclusion fault as it may be that KCM Naruto has greater speed, strength, etc... than SM Naruto other than feats. Essentially you just use this argument to try and mask the fact that you want to only accept the feats that are favorable to your argument while ignoring all feats that are not. 



> You accuse me of underestimating SM and I accuse you of underestimating CS. CS is worse than SM, but it's not so bad that, and I quote you,
> 
> "it is not that detrimental and can be made up for simply by Sasuke's body becoming stronger as he trained MS."


Okay let's take a quick look at the official Viz translation of certain line.

Karin, "Sasuke's chakra it's changed. He's not the same Sasuke as before....I can't believe it's thicker than when he's in curse mark second state....and colder"

Than during the Danzo fight we have

Karin, "This is Sasuke!? His chakra he's almost complete different from before!!" Than Tobi says, "His rage has matured and gained in power and his body is merely responding to it...This is going well.. to undo the curse mark is impressive."

So Karin already stated that his chakra was more powerful than when the curse mark was powering it up and than later she seems to imply it's even more powerful than that and Tobi indicates that Sasuke's body has also become stronger. This is at the same time that Sasuke is in-fact breaking a curse seal with the strength of his body/chakra, symbolic possibly, if not still and impressive feat, that lends credence to how much Sasuke's body/chakra powered up from training MS/hatred.

So it's not that i'm underestimating CS, it's a combo of the fact that SM if FAR > CS and that i'm not underestimating the effect of training MS/hatred had on strengthening Sasuke's body and chakra.



> At least I set an actual great power up (KCM) to opposite SM.


Huh!?

Anyway I will see your response to this and based on whether or not it goes back into just troll argument I will or won't respond.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> @Sniffers
> I am only responding because you seemingly have now realized how ridiculous that Ksunagi sword claim was.


My argument hasn't changed. Maybe you finally got around to reading rather than typing massive walls of text.



Turrin said:


> SM has superior speed to KCM, because SM senses heighten Naruto's reaction time. We directly saw this against Sandaime Raikage.From the official viz translation of chapter 555 pg 13 about why Naruto uses SM instead of KCM against Sandaime Raikage, _"Has a wider sensing range. And it's faster! I just need to get out of the way really fast!"_
> 
> It's true that KCM has a beastly shunshin no jutsu, but Naruto can't control it properly in KCM. So at least for now SM is faster and more practical in combat in terms of speed.
> 
> ...


Naruto went SM to sense to location of the stake: "sense it." Against Edo Raikage, Naruto went SM because due to sensing he can react faster. KCM is faster obviously otherwise. KCM Naruto crushed a rock accidentally.. He also punched Gedo Mazo alongside BM B to topple it.

Did you honestly forget about the Bijuu Bomb? Fuck FRS expansion, KCM Naruto creates mini FRS with a single finger! You are quick to point out FRS expansion has only been used in SM, but you fail to note the Bijuu Bomb. WTF?! =/

I'd like to think a surprise-attack from a steam-powered Jinchuriki is a little stronger than a mere fall. The feats you list are almost all against lesser opponents and therefore have little meaning in a comparison.



Turrin said:


> It's not a numerical thing in terms of assigning a static number that each power up adds. Like SM = +20 as you said. But it's obvious as all hell that Naruto with SM is stronger than Naruto w/o SM. And again we have been shown Naruto is stronger with SM than w/o it since he wouldn't have won against Sandaime Raikage or Tobi's Rikudo w/o it.


..and I never denied Naruto with SM is stronger than Naruto without, so what's your point?



Turrin said:


> Who cares if some of Orochimaru's legacy remains. It doesn't change the fact that if Sasuke does not have an equivalent power up to SM, he will be outclassed by Naruto in their final duel.


That's a misconception I tried to show with the numerical values. MS could easily compensate.



Turrin said:


> What did you use to come to the conclusion fault as it may be that KCM Naruto has greater speed, strength, etc... than SM Naruto other than feats. Essentially you just use this argument to try and mask the fact that you want to only accept the feats that are favorable to your argument while ignoring all feats that are not.


KCM Naruto crushed a boulder in the palm of his hand. All we know is that KCM has strength to spare. How that relates to SM Naruto is hard to say as feats are hard to interpret. For example you make a simple mistake by comparing a surprise attack by a steam powered Jinchuriki with a mere gravity fall. That's how far you are willing to go to wank SM in spite of KCM.



Turrin said:


> Okay let's take a quick look at the official Viz translation of certain line.
> 
> Karin, "Sasuke's chakra it's changed. He's not the same Sasuke as before....I can't believe it's thicker than when he's in curse mark second state....and colder"
> 
> ...


Sasuke's chakra became cold and dark, and that his rage is so great he can will himself free doesn't mean his stats get upped like the normal CS does. Sasuke has simply become more evil and determined than ever before. Besides, chakra isn't the only thing CS afforded Sasuke, it also had utility. CS is easily replaced with a little chakra quality change (fuck the utility, right?), but even KCM can't mostly replace SM?



Turrin said:


> Huh!?
> 
> Anyway I will see your response to this and based on whether or not it goes back into just troll argument I will or won't respond.


I set KCM opposite SM to say that SM can largely be replaced by another power.

I'm not sure I want to respond anymore. The lengths you go to to wank SM in spite of KCM and how much you underrate CS is baffling. That disagreement lies at the basis of the rest of the discussion. Your comparison of feats is also horribly unfair. A mere fall vs a full-powered Jinchuriki surprise kick or a powerful explosive jutsu? You.. have.. got.. to.. be.. kidding.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 1, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> My argument hasn't changed. Maybe you finally got around to reading rather than typing massive walls of text.


Yes it was. I can literally quote what you said, so there is not point in lying.



> Naruto went SM to sense to location of the stake: "sense it."


You miss the point again KCM with all of it's strength was slowly removing the stake. SM pushed the stake out in one simple single handed strike. How does that not show more strength? Plus he already knew where the stake was and all we saw him use SM for was Frog Smash.



> Against Edo Raikage, Naruto went SM because due to sensing he can react faster. KCM is faster obviously otherwise. .


So your outright ignoring the fact that Naruto called SM faster.



> KCM Naruto crushed a rock accidentally.


Now your trolling again, comparing crushing a rock to the feats I showed from SM Naruto (Rino and Kurama)



> He also punched Gedo Mazo alongside BM B to topple it.


Okay he toppled Gedou Mazou with the help of a Bijuu, Kakashi, and Gated Gai. So what. SM Naruto toppled a Bijuu by himself.



> Did you honestly forget about the Bijuu Bomb? Fuck FRS expansion, KCM Naruto creates mini FRS with a single finger! You are quick to point out FRS expansion has only been used in SM, but you fail to note the Bijuu Bomb. WTF?! =/


When has KCM used a full Bijuu bomb? All I have seen from KCM is mini Bijuu bomb and that was not more powerful than FRS.



> I'd like to think a surprise-attack from a steam-powered Jinchuriki is a little stronger than a mere fall. The feats you list are almost all against lesser opponents and therefore have little meaning in a comparison.


Han vs the Fall could be debatable, though I see the fall as worse personally. However saying Deva Path's Shinra Tensei is a lesser opponent than a single one of Ukataka's bubbles or even saying the fall was less severe than that. Come on now your trolling again.



> ..and I never denied Naruto with SM is stronger than Naruto without, so what's your point?


My point was to answer your question.



> That's a misconception I tried to show with the numerical values. MS could easily compensate.


So now MS compensates for both SM and KCM in your opinion. Enough with the underestimation of SM, it's not a minor thing that can be easily compensated for. 



> KCM Naruto crushed a boulder blah


Again you have resulted to trolling, making a response which has nothing to do with the point I was making. So I'll just repeat myself:

What did you use to come to the conclusion faulty as it may be that KCM Naruto has greater speed, strength, etc... than SM Naruto other than feats. Essentially you just use this argument to try and mask the fact that you want to only accept the feats that are favorable to your argument while ignoring all feats that are not.



> Sasuke's chakra became cold and dark, and that his rage is so great he can will himself free doesn't mean his stats get upped like the normal CS does. Sasuke has simply become more evil and determined than ever before.


Now your trolling again, ignoring what I wrote. I clearly showed comments that state Sasuke's chakra had become thicker (which means ether greater in capacity or more powerful) and comments saying Sasuke's body had become stronger. 



> . Besides, chakra isn't the only thing CS afforded Sasuke, it also had utility.


Yeah it gave him flight and MS Sasuke gained better flight via his hawk summons.



> CS is easily replaced with a little chakra quality change (fuck the utility, right?), but even KCM can't mostly replace SM?


Yes because SM Far > CS, that's what your not getting.



> I set KCM opposite SM to say that SM can largely be replaced by another power.


Which is a troll argument considering how instrumental we have seen SM be even after Naruto gained KCM.



> I'm not sure I want to respond anymore.


I'm fine if you don't. Not sure why I even wasted my time on this post to be honest, because most of it was troll arguments (or very close to it) anyway.


----------



## Ptolemy (Aug 1, 2012)

There's clearly several intelligent posters responding to this thread, who are for the most part, justifying their position on who they perceive the power levels well. I'm just baffled why everyone can't admit that there's a large degree of subjectivity in how they perceive these levels- power levels are mainly portrayed through drawings which are often complemented with vague, often self contradictory statements and thematic parallels. Unless it's been specifically stated and is non contradictory (such as say Juubi > Nine Tails) or undeniable (say Madara > Tsunade) than I don't see who anyone can hold a particular position without admitting a significant and reasonable doubt.


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## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes it was. I can literally quote what you said, so there is not point in lying.


I have been clearly stating it's about the user/package the entire time now and not the power up itself. I might've entertained the idea of how some power ups stack up against others, like how I gave random numbers to power ups to get a point across, but nothing I truly support since in the end it's about the package; how well all the powers synergise to make an effective whole.



Turrin said:


> You miss the point again KCM with all of it's strength was slowly removing the stake. SM pushed the stake out in one simple single handed strike. How does that not show more strength? Plus he already knew where the stake was and all we saw him use SM for was Frog Smash.


KCM Naruto was still pulling the moment SM Naruto smashed it. It was a combined effort. Of course, for the sake of wanking SM you conveniently ignore KCMs contribution. Is this not clear proof of how much you overrate SM? You can't even see the rest anymore.

Plus, Naruto didn't exactly know where the stake would be from the INSIDE. That's why Naruto explicitly says "_sense it_" or alternatively "_you [SM clone] should be able to locate it well._"



Turrin said:


> So your outright ignoring the fact that Naruto called SM faster.


No, I'm simply adhering to a proper translation.

"Sennin mode’s frog sparring… in this way my perception of danger will be broader and faster!\\
That’s why I will dodge his trust by an air’s breath…"​


Turrin said:


> Now your trolling again, comparing crushing a rock to the feats I showed from SM Naruto (Rino and Kurama)
> 
> Okay he toppled Gedou Mazou with the help of a Bijuu, Kakashi, and Gated Gai. So what. SM Naruto toppled a Bijuu by himself.


I might well argue that KCM Naruto matching the biting power of a Bijuu is easily a matching strength feat of anything SM showed. Prove me wrong.



Turrin said:


> When has KCM used a full Bijuu bomb? All I have seen from KCM is mini Bijuu bomb and that was not more powerful than FRS.


How do you decide all that stuff?



Turrin said:


> Han vs the Fall could be debatable, though I see the fall as worse personally. However saying Deva Path's Shinra Tensei is a lesser opponent than a single one of Ukataka's bubbles or even saying the fall was less severe than that. Come on now your trolling again.


Shinra Tensei varies in strength and is completely different in how it damages. It pushes away, whereas the bubbles burst. One is a long push and the other a snap. Snaps are usually more damaging. It isn't comparable, and yet you compare.



Turrin said:


> So now MS compensates for both SM and KCM in your opinion. Enough with the underestimation of SM, it's not a minor thing that can be easily compensated for.


Not "_so now,_" that too was open from the start. Well, the SM you are defending, one where you degrade every other power up, is not compensated. The real SM, however...



Turrin said:


> Again you have resulted to trolling, making a response which has nothing to do with the point I was making. So I'll just repeat myself:
> 
> What did you use to come to the conclusion faulty as it may be that KCM Naruto has greater speed, strength, etc... than SM Naruto other than feats. Essentially you just use this argument to try and mask the fact that you want to only accept the feats that are favorable to your argument while ignoring all feats that are not.


KCM is the Yellow Flash reborn. The only other person to dodge A. KCM is obviously faster.
KCM matched the biting power of a Bijuu and easily crushes rocks. It is strong and nothing points to SM being (significantly) stronger. That's an illusion.

So you can stop with comparing the incomparable as the conclusion is BS.



Turrin said:


> Now your trolling again, ignoring what I wrote. I clearly showed comments that state Sasuke's chakra had become thicker (which means ether greater in capacity or more powerful) and comments saying Sasuke's body had become stronger.


KCM also increased Naruto's chakra and made him stronger. Somehow losing CS is not detrimental as it is _mostly_ replaced with other stuff, but SM in the face of KCM is not because SM has some things that KCM can't replace? Well, obviously because you make a way bigger deal out of SM, ignoring KCMs contribution and so on.



Turrin said:


> Yeah it gave him flight and MS Sasuke gained better flight via his hawk summons.


Flight, a defense, it allowed Itachi to be fooled, enhanced jutsu, etc. Just like you say SM has been instrumental, the CS transformation has been instrumental also. But who cares about CS, right? A bit of chakra compensates that utility... but when I say something similar in SMs case suddenly I'm a troll. 



Turrin said:


> Which is a troll argument considering how instrumental we have seen SM be even after Naruto gained KCM.
> 
> I'm fine if you don't. Not sure why I even wasted my time on this post to be honest, because most of it was troll arguments (or very close to it) anyway.


Just because we disagree doesn't make me a troll. SM has been instrumental, but that is besides the point anyway. KCM is used more, whether it's just easier to get into or for some other reason. You even admitted that yourself. It takes a back seat. A back seat doesn't mean it isn't useful.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 1, 2012)

^ Dont bother with Turrin logic tho. Its obvious Kishi spent an training arc for Naruto to master KCM....only for it the be inferior or equal to SM at best. 

Yeah pretty sure Kishi writes that way.


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## Cyphon (Aug 1, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> I'm just baffled why everyone can't admit that there's a large degree of subjectivity in how they perceive these levels- power levels are mainly portrayed through drawings which are often complemented with vague, often self contradictory statements and thematic parallels. Unless it's been specifically stated and is non contradictory (such as say Juubi > Nine Tails) or undeniable (say Madara > Tsunade) than I don't see who anyone can hold a particular position without admitting a significant and reasonable doubt.



The problem you are seeing is with the ignorant who simply don't understand this concept or those who like a character so much that they refuse to accept everything they read. They consider it "filler" in their mind because it doesn't fit their opinion or belief in a favorite character.

It is sad, but quite frequent. Especially for a certain character of the Sharingan variety


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## SM00TH38 (Aug 1, 2012)

a lot of "text walls" going on in here...lol

to the point: itachi is at a higher level then both Oro and jiriaya. that statement back in part 1 in meaningless and shouldnt be used to measure jiriaya's and itachi's strenght.


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> I have been clearly stating it's about the user/package the entire time now and not the power up itself. I might've entertained the idea of how some power ups stack up against others, like how I gave random numbers to power ups to get a point across, but nothing I truly support since in the end it's about the package; how well all the powers synergise to make an effective whole.


Yes and you were saying that SM's synergy with Naruto other powers is no better than the synergy between Ksunagi sword/immunity to some poisons and Sasuke's other abilities. Which again is a trollish argument on par with people claiming Tenten > Kakashi or some shit like that.



> KCM Naruto was still pulling the moment SM Naruto smashed it. It was a combined effort. Of course, for the sake of wanking SM you conveniently ignore KCMs contribution. Is this not clear proof of how much you overrate SM? You can't even see the rest anymore


KCM had his strength bound by the outer path.



> Plus, Naruto didn't exactly know where the stake would be from the INSIDE. That's why Naruto explicitly says "sense it" or alternatively "you [SM clone] should be able to locate it well."


It's possible he used SM to find the stake from the inside, but this has little relevance to my point.



> No, I'm simply adhering to a proper translation.
> "Sennin mode’s frog sparring… in this way my perception of danger will be broader and faster!\\
> That’s why I will dodge his trust by an air’s breath…"


What makes this translation any more "proper" than the official viz?



> I might well argue that KCM Naruto matching the biting power of a Bijuu is easily a matching strength feat of anything SM showed. Prove me wrong.


SM threw a Bijuu, how is that not enough proof, for anyone not trolling.



> How do you decide all that stuff?


It's very easy I read the manga, try it some time. If you actually did read the manga you wouldn't be comparing Naruto busting some rocks with mini bijuu dama to cutting hill sized trees in half with FRS, creating a massive crater at only 50% completion, and this is w/o even getting into the internal damage that FRS causes to peoples chakra systems due to it's blades of wind. I mean it's ether you don't read the manga or your just making up troll arguments again.



> Shinra Tensei varies in strength and is completely different in how it damages. It pushes away, whereas the bubbles burst. One is a long push and the other a snap. Snaps are usually more damaging. It isn't comparable, and yet you compare.


No matter what reasoning you try to apply this is a straight up troll argument. Saying 1 bubble of Ukataka's is more damaging than being hit directly by Shinra Tensei or falling head first into giant spikes, is on par with saying shit like Konohamaru would beat Itachi.

Not to mention KCM fucks up his ankle by just hitting the wall in a slightly awkward fashion using shunshin. Yet tanks hitting solid rock at high velocity (from fall and shinra tensei) with no injury. Which is a similar comparison, since both instances involve force propelling Naruto into solid rock surfaces.



> Not "so now," that too was open from the start. Well, the SM you are defending,


MS would have to be a much better power than KCM to compensate for SM and KCM, which invalidate your entire claim that KCM Naruto = MS Sasuke. 



> one where you degrade every other power up, is not compensated. The real SM, however...


Your the one degrading SM, when the author has done nothing but show the utmost respect for this power up even after Naruto achieved KCM. Hell now your degrading KCM as well by saying MS can make up for it as well as SM. 



> KCM is the Yellow Flash reborn. The only other person to dodge A. KCM is obviously faster.


The problem is KCM Naruto can't effectively control that speed and the only time it worked out for him was when all he had to do is dodge A in a wide open space. Every other time that speed has failed or Naruto has outright avoided the use of it (because he can't control it well in KCM). BM is the power up with superior speed, because the speed seemingly can be controlled in that state. 



> KCM matched the biting power of a Bijuu and easily crushes rocks. It is strong and nothing points to SM being (significantly) stronger. That's an illusion.


So now your trying to change your argument to SM is not significantly stronger than KCM to avoid looking like as much of a troll, when before you were claiming KCM strength is superior to SM.



> KCM also increased Naruto's chakra and made him stronger. Somehow losing CS is not detrimental as it is mostly replaced with other stuff, but SM in the face of KCM is not because SM has some things that KCM can't replace? Well, obviously because you make a way bigger deal out of SM, ignoring KCMs contribution and so on.


Yeah I do make a way bigger deal out of SM than CS, I fully admit to that. Anyone who is not trolling would. 



> Flight, a defense, enhanced jutsu, etc.


And all of this can be compensated for by Sasuke strengthening his body and gaining hawk summon.



> it allowed Itachi to be fooled


What are you talking about?



> Just like you say SM has been instrumental, the CS transformation has been instrumental also


The CS transformation have not been instrumental since Sasuke mastered MS, Sasuke doesn't even have them anymore. My point was that SM continues to be instrumental in Naruto's battles even after KCM, as a way to show that KCM did not make SM obsolete as you were trying to claim.



> but when I say something similar in SMs case suddenly I'm a troll.


Yeah pretty much, because SM FAR > CS.



> Just because we disagree doesn't make me a troll.


No the arguments your using make you seem like a troll. Whether you are intentionally trolling or not i'm not entirely sure, but some of your arguments are as equally misguided as the common naruto-fan forums troll.



> SM has been instrumental, but that is besides the point anyway.


SM being instrumental in 2 of Naruto's main battles since achieving KCM is besides the point of whether or not it has become obsolete since achieving KCM. See this is why I say your are trolling (or your argument are just as bad).



> KCM is used more, whether it's just easier to get into or for some other reason. You even admitted that yourself. It takes a back seat.


Being used more doesn't mean anything. Naruto uses basic rasengan more than any other rasengan, according to you than basic rasengan > FRS, Planetary Rasengan, etc... Naruto uses KCM more than BM so again according to you KCM > BM. Again this just seems like troll logic to me or nearly just as bad.



> A back seat doesn't mean it isn't useful.


Your the one calling it obsolete




hitokugutsu said:


> ^ Dont bother with Turrin logic tho. Its obvious Kishi spent an training arc for Naruto to master KCM....only for it the be inferior or equal to SM at best.
> 
> Yeah pretty sure Kishi writes that way.



Kishi spent a whole training arc for Naruto to master KCM and BM. Together or even just BM, these powers are clearly superior to just SM. Also even before Naruto achieved BM and just had KCM it made Naruto stronger than when he did not have it before, because he than had both KCM and SM. 

However if we compare just KCM to SM, than it's hard to not think that Kishi has portrayed SM as the more impressive power up, considering how SM Naruto continues to be given more impressive displays in the manga cannon than KCM. With that said I do not think SM is better than KCM, I think both have their pluses and minuses. SM seems to have more benefits to it than KCM, but also has a great draw back considering the prep time required to enter SM. 

My point is simply that KCM does not make SM obsolete or renders it nearly useless to the point where it only adds relatively small advantages to Naruto. SM continues to add major advantages to Naruto's fighting style even after achieving KCM. Something we saw in Sandaime Raikage fight and in the battle against Tobi's Bijuu Rikudo.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes and you were saying that SM's synergy with Naruto other powers is no better than the synergy between Ksunagi sword/immunity to some poisons and Sasuke's other abilities. Which again is a trollish argument on par with people claiming Tenten > Kakashi or some shit like that.
> 
> 
> KCM had his strength bound by the outer path.
> ...



It's obvious how much SM gets hyped, when Naruto learns SM, Shikamaru dad, tells him that Naruto is on a whole other level than before, Pa toad thought mastering the Sage Arts put Naruto ahead of his predecessors , Kabuto even with Edo Tensie and Hebi prowess took time to learn Sage Arts which played a critical role in his fight with Itachi.

It's on the onus of the nay Sayers to show panels off CS being hyped to that degree, it's on the onus of the naysayers to show CS feats accomplishing what SM Naruto has done, shit its on the onus of the naysayers to show MS Sasuke utilizing CS at all.

SM is equal to KCM as its the power Naruto sought after his clash with Sasuke

MS is equal to Itachi's MS as its the power Sasuke sought after his clash with Naruto.


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## ZE (Aug 1, 2012)

I can’t believe people are seriously trying to compare an ability (CS) that was already established as inferior to the obvious superior one. It’s just sad. Orochimaru didn’t even bother having the CS. 

And to think that there are users here who have the guts to say that the Jiraiya>=Itachi argument is retarded...

I don't know what is more retarded. If thinking that the CS can compete with SM or thinking that Jiraiya is as strong or stronger than Itachi.


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## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes and you were saying that SM's synergy with Naruto other powers is no better than the synergy between Ksunagi sword/immunity to some poisons and Sasuke's other abilities. Which again is a trollish argument on par with people claiming Tenten > Kakashi or some shit like that.


As trollish as your view on CS if not less so.



Turrin said:


> KCM had his strength bound by the outer path.


Huh?



Turrin said:


> It's possible he used SM to find the stake from the inside, but this has little relevance to my point.


You said Naruto chose SM for strength which has effectively been debunked.



Turrin said:


> What makes this translation any more "proper" than the official viz?


VIZ leaves out many things, whereas aegon-rikudo has been reliable. Actually, takL already verified some time ago:


*Spoiler*: __ 





takL said:


> "frog kumite of Sagemode…its danger-sensor is wider(ranging) and faster!"
> "so that ducking his tsuki/thrust by a whisker,... "








Turrin said:


> SM threw a Bijuu, how is that not enough proof, for anyone not trolling.


KCM Naruto matched the biting force of a Bijuu, how is that enough proof, for anyone not trolling.

I can play that game too and note that the biting force of such carnivores usually exceed their own weight, making KCM Naruto's feat more impressive than SM Naruto's. It is so easy to interpret feats to your liking.
Note: I don't really bother with feats.. I only bring them up to show you you are wrong even if I play your game. So don't say my argument has changed when I later say feats are inconsistent anyway.



Turrin said:


> It's very easy I read the manga, try it some time. If you actually did read the manga you wouldn't be comparing Naruto busting some rocks with mini bijuu dama to cutting hill sized trees in half with FRS, creating a massive crater at only 50% completion, and this is w/o even getting into the internal damage that FRS causes to peoples chakra systems due to it's blades of wind. I mean it's ether you don't read the manga or your just making up troll arguments again.


You can't even properly make out the scale in the mini FRS panel.



Turrin said:


> No matter what reasoning you try to apply this is a straight up troll argument. Saying 1 bubble of Ukataka's is more damaging than being hit directly by Shinra Tensei or falling head first into giant spikes, is on par with saying shit like Konohamaru would beat Itachi.
> 
> Not to mention KCM fucks up his ankle by just hitting the wall in a slightly awkward fashion using shunshin. Yet tanks hitting solid rock at high velocity (from fall and shinra tensei) with no injury. Which is a similar comparison, since both instances involve force propelling Naruto into solid rock surfaces.


Lets ignore for a moment that those walls are made to contain Biju and by no means are normal walls. Lets also forget that KCM Naruto blitzing is way faster than the acceleration of gravity. Your comparisons are so poor and biased it's baffling. You have a clear motive of hyping SM beyond belief so you ignore vital parts for the sake of it.



Turrin said:


> MS would have to be a much better power than KCM to compensate for SM and KCM, which invalidate your entire claim that KCM Naruto = MS Sasuke.


Nah, since KCM greatly overlaps with SM, MS only needs to be bit better.



Turrin said:


> Your the one degrading SM, when the author has done nothing but show the utmost respect for this power up even after Naruto achieved KCM. Hell now your degrading KCM as well by saying MS can make up for it as well as SM.


SM deserves respect. However, not as much as you demand. 



Turrin said:


> The problem is KCM Naruto can't effectively control that speed and the only time it worked out for him was when all he had to do is dodge A in a wide open space. Every other time that speed has failed or Naruto has outright avoided the use of it (because he can't control it well in KCM). BM is the power up with superior speed, because the speed seemingly can be controlled in that state.


Well, sure KCM will eventually be even better once mastered.



Turrin said:


> So now your trying to change your argument to SM is not significantly stronger than KCM to avoid looking like as much of a troll, when before you were claiming KCM strength is superior to SM.


No. Try again.



Turrin said:


> Yeah I do make a way bigger deal out of SM than CS, I fully admit to that. Anyone who is not trolling would.


You do overrate SM more than you do CS indeed. 



Turrin said:


> And all of this can be compensated for by Sasuke strengthening his body and gaining hawk summon.


..and MS can compensate for the low synergy and mutual exclusive power up modes.



Turrin said:


> What are you talking about?


Sacrificing a wing, making it seem as if he was hit, fooling Itachi, creating an opening. Enough hints?



Turrin said:


> The CS transformation have not been instrumental since Sasuke mastered MS, Sasuke doesn't even have them anymore. My point was that SM continues to be instrumental in Naruto's battles even after KCM, as a way to show that KCM did not make SM obsolete as you were trying to claim.


It still gets used, sure. I never denied that.



Turrin said:


> No the arguments your using make you seem like a troll. Whether you are intentionally trolling or not i'm not entirely sure, but some of your arguments are as equally misguided as the common naruto-fan forums troll.


Oh.. well keep guessing then.



Turrin said:


> SM being instrumental in 2 of Naruto's main battles since achieving KCM is besides the point of whether or not it has become obsolete since achieving KCM. See this is why I say your are trolling (or your argument are just as bad).


"_Most of_" it obsolete. You keep missing that part. I'm not saying SM is completely useless. Drill that in your head. Drill it in there again. Again. Again. Again. Again. You got it now? I don't think so. Drill it in again. Again. Again.

If you still quote me wrongly from here on out it just reveals that you have no argument and that your only option is to ridicule my argument by falsely repeating it and calling me a troll. If that really is your only defense then it's just sad. Get your facts straight and simply agree to disagree or simply admit defeat, either one would be much more classy than the attempts you try now.



Turrin said:


> Being used more doesn't mean anything. Naruto uses basic rasengan more than any other rasengan, according to you than basic rasengan > FRS, Planetary Rasengan, etc... Naruto uses KCM more than BM so again according to you KCM > BM. Again this just seems like troll logic to me or nearly just as bad.


Can you really not admit KCM is a better power up than SM? Really? Did Naruto truly went through the trouble of training KCM only to have an inferior mode? Honestly, stop wanking SM so much.

Don't tell me Naruto did it for BM as no-one expected Kulama to cooperate, making the mode possible in the first place. Unless your argument is that they're psychic, which _would_ be trolling.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2012)

ZE said:


> I don't know what is more retarded. If *thinking that the CS can compete with SM* or thinking that Jiraiya is as strong or stronger than Itachi.


Who does that? CS was clearly noted to be inferior.


----------



## ZE (Aug 1, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Who does that? CS was clearly noted to be inferior.


I wasn't the one who said Hebi Sasuke paralleled and was as strong as SM Naruto... that much I know.

Hebi Sasuke being as strong as SM Naruto clearly means the Sasuke we're talking about has a power that can contend with SM.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 1, 2012)

ZE said:


> I wasn't the one who said Hebi Sasuke paralleled and was as strong as SM Naruto... that much I know.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke being as strong as SM Naruto clearly means the Sasuke we're talking about has a power that can contend with SM.


Hebi is not the same as or limited to CS.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 1, 2012)

27 pages of arguing? 


*Spoiler*: __ 





*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato hirashin's out of the manga and slashes your throat


----------



## Sesshy55 (Aug 1, 2012)

Seph said:


> I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you can't understand this incredibly basic point, you should reread the manga on Itachi's intentions.



Nothing in part one implicated that Itachi was a good guy, in fact Kishi most likely didn't plan to have Itachi be a good guy until Part 2. Therefor in part 1, Kishi himself decided that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 1, 2012)

There's a difference between saying "We would kill eachother if we fought" and saying "We're equals/the same level."

Some people here don't seem to understand that.


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> As trollish as your view on CS if not less so.


I am not trolling because CS is not as significant of a power up as SM so it's easier to make up for the loss of CS than SM, but thank you for finally admitting your trolling. So now you have no right to get upset when I say your trolling. 



> Huh?


Don't see how that hard to understand, but in case you missed it:
this one



> You said Naruto chose SM for strength which has effectively been debunked


Now your just making stuff up, trolling again I see.



> VIZ leaves out many things, whereas aegon-rikudo has been reliable. Actually


So your argument is that a fan translator (and not even one of the best fan translators) is more "proper" than the official release. You be trolling kid, you be trolling.



> Actually, takL already verified some time ago:


I respect Takl but I'm not willing to say that his translation is any more or less "proper" than the official release. But at least this is the first decent point you have made in a long time.

However even Takl translation suggests SM is faster, since only SM was able to "ducking his tsuki/thrust by a whisker,... ", while KCM was not fast enough to accomplish this.



> KCM Naruto matched the biting force of a Bijuu, how is that enough proof, for anyone not trolling.
> 
> I can play that game too and note that the biting force of such carnivores usually exceed their own weight, making KCM Naruto's feat more impressive than SM Naruto's. It is so easy to interpret feats to your liking.


Do you really want me to go to the OBD and find the calculations on the strength it would take to throw that rino in the air as far as SM Naruto did LOL. With that aside Kishi is clearly not factoring in bite force on any of that shit, all that matters is portrayal. 

It's obvious SM Naruto so far has been portrayed as stronger from the Rino and Kurama feats, that's why I say your trolling. If you don't believe me make a thread and ask the forum which strength feat they find more impressive. Than you'll have your answer to which mode is being portrayed as stronger by the author.



> Note: I don't really bother with feats.. I only bring them up to show you you are wrong even if I play your game. So don't say my argument has changed when I later say feats are inconsistent anyway.


I ask again if you don't bother with feats than how did you initially determine KCM Naruto has greater strength than SM among other things. Ether you do bother with feats and are just BSing that you don't or you just pulled that totally out of your ass. 



> You can't even properly make out the scale in the mini FRS panel.


Yes you can make out the scale enough to know mini Bijuu dama is not on par with FRS. Again BS argument.



> Lets ignore for a moment that those walls are made to contain Biju and by no means are normal walls. Lets also forget that KCM Naruto blitzing is way faster than the acceleration of gravity. Your comparisons are so poor and biased it's baffling. You have a clear motive of hyping SM beyond belief so you ignore vital parts for the sake of it.


I admit I didn't think that one through that much, but that is because after you started trolling by saying 1 bubble of Ukataka is more damaging than Shinra Tensei or falling head first into giant spiked I stop caring that much.



> Nah, since KCM greatly overlaps with SM, MS only needs to be bit better.


Considering you don't use feats, where is you proof of this overlap I'd like to know. 

Where is your proof that KCM has better or at least equal strength to SM? Where is your proof that KCM's Taijutsu is better or at least equal to Frog Fu + Ghost Punches? Where is your proof that KCM's practical speed (not a Shunshin Naruto can't control well) is great than SM's with sense? Where is your proof that KCM Naruto can use FRS as well as SM Naruto and expand it? Where is your proof of KCM being more durable or as durable as SM? etc...

I have been at least providing arguments this whole time, whether you agree with them or not, you can at least see what I am basing my statements off of. While you on the other just seem to be pulling this shit out of your ass, especially considering you don't consider feats at all.



> SM deserves respect. However, not as much as you demand.


Yeah i'm sure all the none troll posters would agree that saying that the majority of SM is obsolete post KCM is the appropriate amount of respect it deserves. 



> Well, sure KCM will eventually be even better once mastered.


The more mastered form of KCM is BM.



> No. Try again.


I already told you I can quote you easily so there is no point in lying:

Sniffers, "I'm right, since speed, *strength*, Jutsu, and more are upgraded with KCM as well... "

So yes you were saying KCM's strength > SM.



> ..and MS can compensate for the low synergy and mutual exclusive power up modes.


And you say i'm underrating KCM. Yet suddenly MS makes up for both KCM and SM lol.



> Sacrificing a wing, making it seem as if he was hit, fooling Itachi, creating an opening. Enough hints?


Really you don't think the whole battle was controlled by Itachi. You really think he was fooled there LOL.



> It still gets used, sure. I never denied that.


So your not denying that SM was instrumental in 2 of Naruto's main battles, yet still saying it's obsolete. And you wonder why I say your trolling.



> Oh.. well keep guessing then.


You already admitted that your trolling so no needed for guessing anymore.



> "Most of" it obsolete.


Implying the majority of SM is obsolete is still trolling.



> Can you really not admit KCM is a better power up than SM? Really? Did Naruto truly went through the trouble of training KCM only to have an inferior mode? Honestly, stop wanking SM so much.
> 
> Don't tell me Naruto did it for BM as no-one expected Kulama to cooperate, making the mode possible in the first place. Unless your argument is that they're psychic, which would be trolling.


Naruto went through the training to become stronger, having KCM on top of SM certainly made him stronger, regardless of whether KCM is better than SM or not. The reason Kishi's plan for Naruto's training with Kurama this entire arc was for him to achieve BM, which is solidly above SM.

However I don't even see why this is an issue for you, because I could really careless if you think KCM is better or whatever. That is not the issue here, there issue here is your assumption that KCM makes the majority of SM obsolete. The other issue here is the total fail logic you use to try and prove this by saying since Naruto uses KCM more the majority of SM is obsolete, which is troll logic since you might as well say that all of Naruto's other Rasengan variants including beast bombs are mostly made obsolete by base Rasengan. 

Hell we can apply this fail logic to other characters again come up with equally trollish arguments. Itachi uses three tome sharingan more so three tome sharingan makes Mangekyo mostly obsolete. Deidara uses C1 & C2 more so that makes C3 & C4 mostly obsolete. Sasori uses Hiroku more than his other puppets including Sandaime Kazekage so they are mostly obsolete. etc...

But here's what I'll do for you if, you think I'm the one who is trolling. I create a threads asking these things to people and polling the forum.

For example which strength feats are more impressive, SM Naruto throwing Rino and Kurama or KCM holding back Yonbi's jaws for some time? Another example which do you think is more damaging 1 bubble from Uakata or Shinra Tensei (used against SM Naruto and falling head first into spikes? What do you think is more reasonable that MS Sasuke could have increased his chakra/body strength and gained hawk summons making up for CS or that KCM has made SM mostly obsolete to the point where it only adds as much as Ksunagi sword and some immunity to poisons to Naruto's fighting style post KCM?

How about that. That will settle it once and for all, would it not.


----------



## Vice (Aug 1, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> There's a difference between saying "We would kill eachother if we fought" and saying "We're equals/the same level."
> 
> Some people here don't seem to understand that.



There's a difference between saying "We would kill each other if we fought" and saying "I would fodderize him in half an instant because I'm at least two tiers above him."

Some people here don't seem to understand that.


----------



## sasuke uciha boy (Aug 2, 2012)

> To me Itachi/Orochimaru/Jiriyia rankings in the manga have caused a huge Custerfuck on the forum to the point where they use different statements and outcomes to elevate Itachi yet demote Jiriyia, when you thinks about it nothing has been shown or really stated that separates these 3 characters in power.


 There is many things that show Itachi > Orochimaru like Itachi defeating Orochimaru twice, Sasuke saying that for both him and Orochimaru togheter is imposoble to defeat Orochimaru. Orochimaru saying that it is imposoble dream to defeat Itachi etc... 

When it comes to Jiraiya there is nothing that shows that Jiraiya is on Itachi's level except for one hype statment given in Part 1 which isn't relevent anymore because the aothor may have changed his plans about Itachi's character or Itachi could have laying



> * Itachi facing 3 of the strongest jounins in the village that would greatly damage konoha's military strength, so why would he face them but be gunshy to face Jiriyia


  Obviously, if Itachi run away against 3 jounins it would have been suspicious for Kisame. I mean Kisame knew that Itachi soloed the Uchiha clan and what would have been for someone who accomplished this to run away from 3  jounins? 



> * Itachi and Kisame both were playing each other, why would Itachi chose to opt out of a fight that would make Kisame more suspicious , if Itachi could've defeated Jiriyia with minimal effort he would've done so, but he knew a fight against Jiriyia would cost him his life.


He obviously could not defeat him with minimal effort. He would needed MS to do it. And if he defeated Jiraiya right there and than withdraw without taking Naruto it would have been even more suspicious than Itachi going away without fighting Jiraiya.



> * We have Naruto comparing his power SM to Sasuke MS, implying that they were equal same thing Itachi did, now Jiriyia SM is imperfect, Itachi was suffering from Illness so it evens out.


The characters say a lot of things which are not true. Deidara said that he can beat Itachi and Orochimaru. Is that true? Orochimaru thought that he can beat Itachi the 2nd time but was owned etc... 

And Sasuke was blind at that time so he was not on Naruto's level. MS Sasuke with the Susanoo after the fight with Danzo and who does not have problems with his eyes would have been stronger than Naruto but we never saw Sasuke like that. 

Orochimaru had imperfect  Sage mode was that enough for him to evens with Itachi?



> * In the fight Itachi struggled the most, it was against Kabuto who was using SM, think about who thought Kabuto of all people would have SM, this was Kishi subtle way of justifying what he has stated throughout the manga that SM and MS are to be seen as equal power ups , now Kabuto did have other enhancements , but Itachi also ad Sasuke helping him so that evens it out.


Dragon sage mode is not the same with toad sage mode. Dragon Sage mode gives you some immunity to eye Genjutsu. Dragon Sage mode have beter sensing and better regeneration and Kabuto had the power of sound 4.



> Itachi vs Orochimaru , most people use the fact they believe Itachi>>>>>>>Orochimaru as a way to separate Itachi from Jiriyia's level, but what people fail to realize is that Itachi never defeated Orochimaru effortlessly, when he chopped Orochimaru hand off in that flashback he didn't defeat Orochimaru , He just showed that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to overtake Itach's body, he wasn't strong enough to defeat Itachi without killing him , why would he try to kill Itachi when he wanted his body.


Itachi defeated Orochimaru in the flashbacks but we don't know was that just with Genjutsu or was there fight after that. But Pain said that Orochimaru leave Akatsuki after Itachi defeated him. 



> * Orochimaru who prides himself on his mastery of ninjutsu had his arms sealed by the 3rd Hokage when he made that statement


Orochimaru was showen to use his arms in almast every fight after his fight with 3rd Hokage and if he could defeat Itachi with Edo Tensei he would have  done it before fighting Sarutobi.



> * During the course of the manga Orochimaru had access to Edo Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, and had the DNA off Ther powerful shinobi of he wanted to take Itachi out he could easily have prepped himself to attack Itachi, as there's no way that Itachi could defeat all of those powerful Edo Tensei on own, but Orochimaru was unwilling to do that because he wanted his body.


Itachi could defeat Orochimaru with Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama with the feats from Part 1. Or can't he just take control on Edo Tensei's summon like Sasuke did with Manda?

Orochimaru with ET Madara is the strongest character in the manga and not sure how if he summoned Madara and Madara wanted to fight for him he is on Itachi's or especially Jiraiya's level,he is above them.



> * When Itachi finally does defeat Orochimaru it took his strongest technique which Orochimaru had no knowledge off to defeat Orochimaru and at the cost of his own life, had Orochimaru had Knowldge off Itachi's illness he wouldnt have been so gunshy to attack him


Itachi used his strongest technique against Sasuke it does not mean that he could not defeat Oro without Susanoo.



> * recently even Sasuke comments on how Orochimaru was weakned during their encounter, Sasuke is telling the reader that Orochimaru is much stronger than he has shown in this manga


We already knew that Orochimaru was stronged than Pre Hebi Sasuke so nothing new but after that Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Sasuke.



> I think it's okay to say Itachi is stronger than Orochimarj but the difference in their power is so minimal that it doesn't elevate Itachi to another tier, that would be like saying Hashirama is in another tier than Madara, or that Kakashi is in another tier than Gai because he's slightly stronger.


Madara and Hashirama had many fight in the past and none was killed, they had many battles and always drew and Itachi was always owning Orochimaru.



> 1. Jiriyia like Naruto wants to bring Orochimaru back to the village, that means that when he fought Orochimaru he wasn't fighting with killer intent, in order for one to defeat a shinobi without killing them, said shinobi would have to be much stronger, so Jiriyia wasn't strong enough to defeat Orochimaru without killing him.


Didn't Orochimaru and Sasuke defeated Jiraiya without killing them? So why Jiraiya can't do the same with Orochimaru?



> 1. This has nothing to do with actual power level , it's just he's mocking Jiriyia's ideals as a ninja, Jiriyia values the will of fire, while Orochimaru values mastering ninjutsu, so of anything he thinks his way of shinobi is superior than Jiriyia it has nothing to do with him thinking he's stronger, same as Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke knows how string Naruto is but his pride in his own power and his beliefs as a ninja don't coincides with Naruto , so he'll always think he's better than Naruto, until Naruto lays the smack down.


Orochimaru said that there is still a difference beetween them after they were talking about Ninjutsu/WoF. And comparing Sasuke/Naruto with Orochimaru/ Jiraiya is ot valid as Sasuke admitted that he is weaker than Naruto in part 1 and Orochimaru never admitted that Jiraiya is stronger than him.



> 1. This is again similar to Sasuke and Naruto as Sasuke was the one who stood out for his talent, but through Naruto's guts and WOF he will be able to surpass the talent level off Sasuke, same as Jiriyia, Orochimaru had more talent, but Jiriyia worked harder and was able to learn Sage Mode and he was able to gain strength by fighting to protect others and with that he eventually surpassed Orochimaru, Tsunade even tells Jiriyia that Hiruzen wanted him to be Hokage.


I don't remember but I think in the databook Kishi says that Orochimaru stood out for *individual ability* which is not the same with talent. And Naruto is way more talented than Jiraiya so not sure why you continue to make a parallels without any reasons.

Tsunade said that he wanted Jiraiya to be the fifth hokage. so It just means that Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade however Hiruzen wanted rochimaru to be 4th hokage which is better hype.



> I think this is enough evidence to support Jiriyia being equal or slightly stronger than Orochimarj, in addition to this he has a higher statistical score in the databook, and all of the WOF rivals Hashirama, Naruto, Hiruzen were stronger than Madara, Danzo, and Sasuke, so Jiriyia being stronger coincides with the theme of the manga


Danzo is stronger than Hiruzen and Madara and Sasuke consider Hashirama and Naruto for thier rivals unlike Orochimaru who did not give shit about Jiraiya so this is basiclly point that you are trying to make with parallels that are complety different.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 2, 2012)

Vice said:


> There's a difference between saying "We would kill each other if we fought" and saying "I would fodderize him in half an instant because I'm at least two tiers above him."
> 
> Some people here don't seem to understand that.



Pain is capable of fodderizing Jiraiya in half an instant and ended up struggling with him due to the circumstances of their encounter. He even admitted he could have lost.

In your attempt to be a smartass, you completely overlooked the importance of the conditions of engagement.


----------



## Shattering (Aug 2, 2012)

I love when prople thinks that if an SM user gets "X" feat, every single SM user has it, if we go like this I'll take every single feat from Madara and I'll give it to Itachi  , and ever single feat from Madara is now one of Nagato's feats too.

SM Kabuto is leagues above SM Naruto/Jiraiya.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I am not trolling because CS is not as significant of a power up as SM so it's easier to make up for the loss of CS than SM, but thank you for finally admitting your trolling. So now you have no right to get upset when I say your trolling.


Well, since KCM greatly overlaps with SM, SM wouldn't be that great of loss either. 



Turrin said:


> Don't see how that hard to understand, but in case you missed it:
> that base Ei


What does that prove exactly?



Turrin said:


> Now your just making stuff up, trolling again I see.


Ironic. You said: 
"In terms of strength SM is also better than KCM. This is why Naruto used SM to push the stake out of Yonbi."​
Now prove you didn't make it up, because Naruto clearly said he wanted the SM clone to sense the location.



Turrin said:


> So your argument is that a fan translator (and not even one of the best fan translators) is more "proper" than the official release. You be trolling kid, you be trolling.
> 
> I respect Takl but I'm not willing to say that his translation is any more or less "proper" than the official release. But at least this is the first decent point you have made in a long time.
> 
> However even Takl translation suggests SM is faster, since only SM was able to "ducking his tsuki/thrust by a whisker,... ", while KCM was not fast enough to accomplish this.


Yeah, thanks to sensing SM can effectively react later, but that doesn't make it a faster mode overall.



Turrin said:


> Do you really want me to go to the OBD and find the calculations on the strength it would take to throw that rino in the air as far as SM Naruto did LOL. With that aside Kishi is clearly not factoring in bite force on any of that shit, all that matters is portrayal.
> 
> It's obvious SM Naruto so far has been portrayed as stronger from the Rino and Kurama feats, that's why I say your trolling. If you don't believe me make a thread and ask the forum which strength feat they find more impressive. Than you'll have your answer to which mode is being portrayed as stronger by the author.
> 
> I ask again if you don't bother with feats than how did you initially determine KCM Naruto has greater strength than SM among other things. Ether you do bother with feats and are just BSing that you don't or you just pulled that totally out of your ass.


No, I don't bother with feats. I do bother with portrayal though, and Naruto crushing a rock and matching the biting force of one of the greatest entities in the manga clearly puts him way up there. Calculations and comparisons of feats (which can't clearly be compared) are ridiculous though and nothing more than opinionated BS.



Turrin said:


> Yes you can make out the scale enough to know mini Bijuu dama is not on par with FRS. Again BS argument.


So Kishimoto wanted us to think a mini Biju Bomb didn't really add anything and could easily be forgotten? I see. What BS.



Turrin said:


> I admit I didn't think that one through that much, but that is because after you started trolling by saying 1 bubble of Ukataka is more damaging than Shinra Tensei or falling head first into giant spiked I stop caring that much.


Well, that you don't care about anything else but SM was clear from the start. You have been comparing mere falls to full powered Jinchuriki surprise attacks to the face and outright denying KCMs contribution in freeing the stake.

Like I said, it's not like I underrate SM, it's more like you overrate it at the cost of all logic and anything else. I think that much should be even clear to you now.



Turrin said:


> Considering you don't use feats, where is you proof of this overlap I'd like to know.
> 
> Where is your proof that KCM has better or at least equal strength to SM? Where is your proof that KCM's Taijutsu is better or at least equal to Frog Fu + Ghost Punches? Where is your proof that KCM's practical speed (not a Shunshin Naruto can't control well) is great than SM's with sense? Where is your proof that KCM Naruto can use FRS as well as SM Naruto and expand it? Where is your proof of KCM being more durable or as durable as SM? etc...


KCM increases strength. So does SM. KCM increases speed. So does SM. And so on. Where they both stand in comparison of each other is hard to say as there hasn't been a true comparison. So for now lets not pretend one is significantly better than the other, except for things we know, like KCM mimicking the Yellow Flash and SM having better sensing.

Even if there are differences then there would be overlap as both modes increase the same stats, but not simultaneously, which was my point from the beginning. Not even you can deny that much.



Turrin said:


> I have been at least providing arguments this whole time, whether you agree with them or not, you can at least see what I am basing my statements off of. While you on the other just seem to be pulling this shit out of your ass, especially considering you don't consider feats at all.


Yeah, you're basing your argument off of unfair comparisons heavily biased towards SM.



Turrin said:


> Yeah i'm sure all the none troll posters would agree that saying that the majority of SM is obsolete post KCM is the appropriate amount of respect it deserves.


Only a troll would deny that KCM and SM increase mostly the same stats.  



Turrin said:


> The more mastered form of KCM is BM.


No, it isn't. BM is the next stage, but that doesn't mean Naruto will never learn to Shunshin properly in KCM.



Turrin said:


> I already told you I can quote you easily so there is no point in lying:
> 
> Sniffers, "I'm right, since speed, *strength*, Jutsu, and more are upgraded with KCM as well... "
> 
> So yes you were saying KCM's strength > SM.


This proves I lie? I say KCM upgrades (base) Naruto's strength AS WELL, therefore I say KCM upgrades strength more than SM? Learn to read. Dayum.



Turrin said:


> And you say i'm underrating KCM. Yet suddenly MS makes up for both KCM and SM lol.


Since SM and KCM largely overlap, it could easily be the case.



Turrin said:


> Really you don't think the whole battle was controlled by Itachi. You really think he was fooled there LOL.


Well, it did fool Zetsu anyway. Itachi is a genius so we don't know.



Turrin said:


> So your not denying that SM was instrumental in 2 of Naruto's main battles, yet still saying it's obsolete. And you wonder why I say your trolling.


I asked you to get your facts straight. Put "_most of_" in there.



Turrin said:


> You already admitted that your trolling so no needed for guessing anymore.


In your mind a lot happens, but that doesn't make it real.



Turrin said:


> Implying the majority of SM is obsolete is still trolling.


Implying CS is not a big deal, even if it's weaker than SM, is also trolling then.



Turrin said:


> Naruto went through the training to become stronger, having KCM on top of SM certainly made him stronger, regardless of whether KCM is better than SM or not. The reason Kishi's plan for Naruto's training with Kurama this entire arc was for him to achieve BM, which is solidly above SM.
> 
> However I don't even see why this is an issue for you, because I could really careless if you think KCM is better or whatever. That is not the issue here, there issue here is your assumption that KCM makes the majority of SM obsolete. The other issue here is the total fail logic you use to try and prove this by saying since Naruto uses KCM more the majority of SM is obsolete, which is troll logic since you might as well say that all of Naruto's other Rasengan variants including beast bombs are mostly made obsolete by base Rasengan.


It's only natural for the NEW ALTERNATE mode to be stronger though.



Turrin said:


> Hell we can apply this fail logic to other characters again come up with equally trollish arguments. Itachi uses three tome sharingan more so three tome sharingan makes Mangekyo mostly obsolete. Deidara uses C1 & C2 more so that makes C3 & C4 mostly obsolete. Sasori uses Hiroku more than his other puppets including Sandaime Kazekage so they are mostly obsolete. etc...
> 
> But here's what I'll do for you if, you think I'm the one who is trolling. I create a threads asking these things to people and polling the forum.
> 
> ...


Knock yourself out, but I recall you not giving a shit about general consensuses when they don't work for you, so why do you think I give any?


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2012)

@Sniffers

I made a bunch of threads to see peoples overall opinion. I don't know if it will convince you or not and I honestly don't care, I did it more for my own benefit to see if I was being to harsh on your opinions or if they were really as trollish as I assumed. Here are my findings:

* On 1 of Ukataka's Bubbles > Shinra Tensei/The Fall*​]
4/6 people said it was ether equally damaging or less damaging than that specific Shinra Tensei. Also another poster ueharakk brought to my attention a compelling argument that the bubbles could be filled with highly corrosive Alkaline. So despite the fact that you were not the one to bring up such an argument and that more people agreed with me that, that Shinra Tensei was more damaging, I will concede that this is not a troll argument. Also while I still believe that SM as the power up highlighted for it's durability and what not, probably has greater durability than KCM, really there is not quite enough info to say that for sure.

With that said, until we know for sure that KCM has equal or greater durability than SM, you can't simply rule out the possibility that one of SM's advantages is durability and therefore is not obsolete in this area. Just saying.

*Mini Bijuu Ball vs FRS*​10/11 people said that SM FRS was clearly the better/more powerful jutsu. So I maintain that you ether have not read the manga closely enough when it comes to the uses of FRS or you be trolling to say otherwise. Also I maintain that both KCM and SM's strongest jutsu is FRS, so nether really has an advantage in jutsu. Unless of course KCM can not expand the FRS like SM in which case SM would have the advantage in Jutsu. 

*Strength Feats*​11/13 said that SM Strength feats are more impressive. So again I maintain that it's pretty clear that SM thus far has been depicted as the superior mode in strength and there in lies another advantage to SM where it is not as obsolete as you claim it to be.

*How Obsolete is SM*​7/7 people said that SM has not become so obsolete that it's only as beneficial to Naruto post mastering KCM as Ksunagi sword and some immunity to poisons are as beneficial to Sasuke post mastering MS. So still seems like quite a trollish argument on your part to me. Also most people in that thread agreed that SM is not mostly obsolete after Naruto gained KCM, which only affirms my belief that your off your rocker to suggest it is and are indeed underestimating SM by a large margin.

*Other Points Worth Replying to*​


> So Kishimoto wanted us to think a mini Biju Bomb didn't really add anything and could easily be forgotten?


Is that honestly any different than many of the Rasengan variants Kishimoto has been giving Naruto in this war? 

Though I have a small theory on this. I believe the normal Rasengans used in KCM are products of Naruto drawing on his own chakra, while Mini Bijuu dama is product complete of Kurama's chakra. So Mini Bijuu dama may have it's use as a way for Naruto to conserve his own chakra. However regardless of whether or not that is true (as it is only a theory), we have seen many rasengan variants in this war that come off adding little to nothing.



> No, I don't bother with feats. I do bother with portrayal though, and Naruto crushing a rock and matching the biting force of one of the greatest entities in the manga clearly puts him way up there


Your "Portrayal" is also clearly derived from feats; crushing the rock, hold back Yonbi's bite, etc... are all feats btw. So yes you do bother with feats. :rofl

Like I said before it's not that you don't bother with feats, it's that you only want to bother with the ones beneficial to your argument or your belief in a certain "Portrayal" of a character, power up, etc...



> Calculations and comparisons of feats (which can't clearly be compared) are ridiculous though and nothing more than opinionated BS.


Someone's belief on how the author is "portraying" which they base of off feats is not opinionated LoL. Give me a break Sniffers.



> No, it isn't. BM is the next stage, but that doesn't mean Naruto will never learn to Shunshin properly in KCM.


How do you know that Naruto will learn to use his top speed shunshin in KCM with precision/consistency, let alone before he fights Sasuke? The answer is that you don't know and until Naruto shows he can use KCM speed consistently and with percision SM has greater practical speed than KCM. You're the one after all that bases his whole argument of SM being obsolete on the fact that we have yet to see Naruto stack SM with KCM or BM, despite the fact that it's possible he could do so in the future. If your going to say that possibility is off bounds for discussion, than certainly the idea of KCM at some future point being able to use his shunshin more precisely/consistently should also be off bounds for your to discuss. 



> Implying CS is not a big deal, even if it's weaker than SM, is also trolling then.


You still fail to comprehend my argument properly some how. Never have I implied CS is not a big deal. What I have implied is it's much easier for Sasuke to make up for the loss CS since it's a far lesser power up than SM. CS is a good power up, but I believe Sasuke strengthening his body/chakra while training MS combined with him acquiring hawk summons can make up for his loss of CS. 

Naruto when mastering KCM on the other hand did not strength his (base) body, chakra, or gain any new summons that would make up for the perks of SM. 



> Even if there are differences then there would be overlap as both modes increase the same stats, but not simultaneously, which was my point from the beginning. Not even you can deny that much.


Of course their is some overlap, but having some overlap doesn't make SM mostly obsolete. For SM to be mostly obsolete it would have to offer so little that almost none of it's perks outweigh the perks of KCM. This is something I simply do not believe is even remotely true.

KCM offers some good sensing abilities, but on average SM ability to locate opponents/things is greater so that is 1 reason right there to use SM over KCM. SM's strength also appears greater than KCM's, so in tasks involving brute force there would be a reason to use SM instead of KCM. SM sensing also makes SM have greater reaction time/prediction abilities, so that is another reasons to use SM instead of KCM. SM also offers a different Taijutsu style with Frog Fu than KCM's which utilizes primarily chakra arms, so that is yet another reason to use SM instead of KCM. SM's recovery is also a completely valid reason for Naruto to use this mode over KCM in many situations.

On top of that there are other potential reasons to use SM over KCM, considering it is not clear whether KCM is equal to SM in these areas; such as durability and ability to expand the FRS for sneaky attack. 



> It's only natural for the NEW ALTERNATE mode to be stronger though


And the new alternate mode is stronger, but the highest form of that mode is BM not KCM.


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## SM00TH38 (Aug 2, 2012)

FYI bijuu bomb is still a work in progress. when naruto is able to complete this move the effects should be on the scale of this 
keeping up  c201-300/Naruto c295/chapter295 06.png&server=nas.html
keeping up  c201-300/Naruto c295/chapter295 07.png&server=nas.html
keeping up  c201-300/Naruto c295/chapter295 10.png&server=nas.html
keeping up 
c201-300/Naruto c295/chapter295 11.png&server=nas.html
at the very least


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## Sniffers (Aug 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I made a bunch of threads to see peoples overall opinion. I don't know if it will convince you or not and I honestly don't care, I did it more for my own benefit to see if I was being to harsh on your opinions or if they were really as trollish as I assumed. Here are my findings:
> 
> * On 1 of Ukataka's Bubbles > Shinra Tensei/The Fall*​]
> 4/6 people said it was ether equally damaging or less damaging than that specific Shinra Tensei. Also another poster ueharakk brought to my attention a compelling argument that the bubbles could be filled with highly corrosive Alkaline. So despite the fact that you were not the one to bring up such an argument and that more people agreed with me that, that Shinra Tensei was more damaging, I will concede that this is not a troll argument. Also while I still believe that SM as the power up highlighted for it's durability and what not, probably has greater durability than KCM, really there is not quite enough info to say that for sure.
> ...


I never ruled out the possibility of SM being (slightly) superior in some regards. My entire point about the feats was that you can't really tell which is better. I'm glad you agree with that and finally give me credit for such arguments.

This brings me to the next part.. since it's hard to tell which is better and both modes are mutually exclusive there is much overlap in the bonuses they provide.

As for the Mini Biju Bomb, I still say it should be stronger than FRS, but like I said that too is hard to tell. Perhaps future feats will clarify. At any rate, Naruto going for the Biju Bomb after FRS failed already speaks volumes in my book.

Did you tell those people that biting force usually far exceeds the animals own weight. That may change their opinions. At any rate, even if SM has a little more strength and durability, the differences aren't big enough to say that KCM doesn't cover those areas for a very large part.. which was my point.

I saw that thread and even I would vote for SM there the way you posed that question. Like I said, I'm open to saying SM is more beneficial, but that's not really the point I was trying to make.



Turrin said:


> Is that honestly any different than many of the Rasengan variants Kishimoto has been giving Naruto in this war?
> 
> Though I have a small theory on this. I believe the normal Rasengans used in KCM are products of Naruto drawing on his own chakra, while Mini Bijuu dama is product complete of Kurama's chakra. So Mini Bijuu dama may have it's use as a way for Naruto to conserve his own chakra. However regardless of whether or not that is true (as it is only a theory), we have seen many rasengan variants in this war that come off adding little to nothing.


Yeah, but the Biju Bomb training was a big deal.



Turrin said:


> Your "Portrayal" is also clearly derived from feats; crushing the rock, hold back Yonbi's bite, etc... are all feats btw. So yes you do bother with feats. :rofl


I bother to the point of noting that KCM was shown to clearly enhance strength. How much and how it compares is a step I frown upon as feats tend to be inconsistent in the first place.



Turrin said:


> How do you know that Naruto will learn to use his top speed shunshin in KCM with precision/consistency, let alone before he fights Sasuke? The answer is that you don't know and until Naruto shows he can use KCM speed consistently and with percision SM has greater practical speed than KCM. You're the one after all that bases his whole argument of SM being obsolete on the fact that we have yet to see Naruto stack SM with KCM or BM, despite the fact that it's possible he could do so in the future. If your going to say that possibility is off bounds for discussion, than certainly the idea of KCM at some future point being able to use his shunshin more precisely/consistently should also be off bounds for your to discuss.


If Naruto stacks KCM and SM then it'll most likely happen after the rivalry has been concluded. Also, do you really expect KCM to remain bad at replicating the Yellow Flash? I think honestly you don't. 



Turrin said:


> You still fail to comprehend my argument properly some how. Never have I implied CS is not a big deal. What I have implied is it's much easier for Sasuke to make up for the loss CS since it's a far lesser power up than SM. CS is a good power up, but I believe Sasuke strengthening his body/chakra while training MS combined with him acquiring hawk summons can make up for his loss of CS.
> 
> Naruto when mastering KCM on the other hand did not strength his (base) body, chakra, or gain any new summons that would make up for the perks of SM.


I understand this well. My point has never been that SM is not a big deal either.. it is. It's just that a lot of the things it does KCM can replicate easily or at least almost. KCM basically covers almost the same bases and so if Naruto lost SM it'd not be that big of deal either. He'd manage, just like Sasuke manages without CS even though he misses/replaced some of his utilities. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that SM has been very convenient, but then the Kusanagi has been convenient too. (..not comparing them strength-wise.)

An attempt to explain my point with a numerical example.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Suppose SM is a +20 and KCM a +25, then since they are mutually exclusive and largely cover the same bases the package/total would be (much) lower than +45. Now for the sake of showing you my argument lets say the numerical value of the total is +30..

Furthermore, lets say CS was +10, and losing it put Sasuke 10 points behind pre-SM Naruto / FRS Naruto, then if you are right and Sasuke's body strengthening makes up for CS if not more so: +10/15, then the MS itself only needs to be a +30/25 to compensate. That's not farfetched at all.

I stress these numbers are arbitrary and to show a point. I don't care if you make body strengthening a +15, +10 or +5, as long as the end result matches Naruto's total.





Turrin said:


> Of course their is some overlap, but having some overlap doesn't make SM mostly obsolete. For SM to be mostly obsolete it would have to offer so little that almost none of it's perks outweigh the perks of KCM. This is something I simply do not believe is even remotely true.
> 
> KCM offers some good sensing abilities, but on average SM ability to locate opponents/things is greater so that is 1 reason right there to use SM over KCM. SM's strength also appears greater than KCM's, so in tasks involving brute force there would be a reason to use SM instead of KCM. SM sensing also makes SM have greater reaction time/prediction abilities, so that is another reasons to use SM instead of KCM. SM also offers a different Taijutsu style with Frog Fu than KCM's which utilizes primarily chakra arms, so that is yet another reason to use SM instead of KCM. SM's recovery is also a completely valid reason for Naruto to use this mode over KCM in many situations.
> 
> On top of that there are other potential reasons to use SM over KCM, considering it is not clear whether KCM is equal to SM in these areas; such as durability and ability to expand the FRS for sneaky attack.


How much of a plus is all that though? If Naruto couldn't use Frog Fu/different taijutsu anymore, would that impair him greatly? No, since he has KCM which can create multiple arms at once to overwhelm. It's more an issue of taste than anything, although I believe KCMs style is vastly more versatile and hence superior.

Naruto has not once needed to go to SM specifically for any added strength or durability. We don't even know if they're significantly greater if at all greater and KCM has sufficed just fine. At any rate, the author to make a deal out of it. That's how I see the portrayal.

The only two real certain things SM has over KCM, which also have been the only reasons Naruto even preferred SM over KCM in those moments, is the recovery and sensing. 

Does this make my view a bit more understandable if even a little? Anyway, I feel like the discussion is going in a good direction again now. That is great. 



Turrin said:


> And the new alternate mode is stronger, but the highest form of that mode is BM not KCM.


I see both modes as seperate, which is probably why I hold KCM in a higher esteem than you. The reason why I see them as seperate is because they are inherently as different as KCM and KN states were or the regular Sharingan and MS are. For KCM Naruto had to get a key and steal some of Kulama's chakra. For BM Naruto had to make peace with Kulama and free him from his prison. Just training KCM wouldn't get Naruto into BM. BM is not a technique like the extendo arms are, something he trained. BM was only possible via making peace and opening the gate, which warrants it as its own power like the differing name for the mode would suggest.


PS: I just noticed that Naruto dropped KCM involuntarily and couldn't return to that state anymore.. so since that was out of the question I even doubt Naruto was comparing to KCM but rather his base mode when he made the statement about having faster sensing. I'm gonna need a proper look at that again when I get back.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> I never ruled out the possibility of SM being (slightly) superior in some regards. My entire point about the feats was that you can't really tell which is better. I'm glad you agree with that and finally give me credit for such arguments.


Now hold up there, I agree with that on durability. But in the case of strength I think it is clear that SM Naruto > KCM Naruto from feats. And in the case of Jutsu it is clear they are ether equal or SM is better. 



> As for the Mini Biju Bomb, I still say it should be stronger than FRS, but like I said that too is hard to tell. Perhaps future feats will clarify. At any rate, Naruto going for the Biju Bomb after FRS failed already speaks volumes in my book.


He was going for a regular Bijuu Bomb, not a a mini one. 



> Did you tell those people that biting force usually far exceeds the animals own weight. That may change their opinions.


No because there is no way in hell that Kishimoto is accounting for that and It's not like I provided calcs for any of SM Naruto's feats ether.



> I saw that thread and even I would vote for SM there the way you posed that question. Like I said, I'm open to saying SM is more beneficial, but that's not really the point I was trying to make.


The way I posed the question was literally what your were saying. I also asked if KCM made SM mostly obsolete (again what you were saying) and most people disagree with this notion. 



> Yeah, but the Biju Bomb training was a big deal.


Yeah and it was a big deal when Naruto pulled off Bijuu Bomb in BM. 



> I bother to the point of noting that KCM was shown to clearly enhance strength. How much and how it compares is a step I frown upon as feats tend to be inconsistent in the first place.


Dude you are looking at KCM's feats and comparing them to base mode's to determine that KCM boosts strength. So again you are doing the same exact thing. 



> If Naruto stacks KCM and SM then it'll most likely happen after the rivalry has been concluded.


I can easily say that Naruto won't learn to control his KCM Shunshin properly until after the rivalry has been concluded. The fact of the matter is in both case we do not know. So ether we only look at what Naruto currently has or we speculate on what he might get. But it's completely unfair to disregard speculation of SM being stacked with KCM, while on the other hand base one of your own arguments on speculation.



> Also, do you really expect KCM to remain bad at replicating the Yellow Flash? I think honestly you don't.


It wouldn't surprise me if KCM did, because Naruto will have BM to replicate the Yellow Flash with. Unless Kishi really wants to hype up Minato to the high heavens and he makes it so KCM's Shunshin is only equal to Minato's Shunshin, while BM Shunshin is much faster than KCM and equal to FTG. So essentially I could see it go ether way. 



> I understand this well. My point has never been that SM is not a big deal either.. it is. It's just that a lot of the things it does KCM can replicate easily or at least almost. KCM basically covers almost the same bases and so if Naruto lost SM it'd not be that big of deal either. He'd manage, just like Sasuke manages without CS even though he misses/replaced some of his utilities. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that SM has been very convenient, but then the Kusanagi has been convenient too. (..not comparing them strength-wise.)


See the thing is he wouldn't manage though. He wouldn't have defeat Sandaime Raikage. He wouldn't have freed Yonbi or defeated the other 5 Bijuu. And that is the problem I am having with your argument, that the author directly showed he would not manage. 

Sasuke on the other hand has managed w/o CS. Also he could very easily manage w/o Ksunagi sword or immunity to some poisons. You can say the Ksunagi sword saved him in the B fight and was used by Itachi in the Kabuto fight to set up Izanami, but realistically if Sasuke didn't have Ksunagi sword, both things would most likely still have been possible with myriad of different ninja tools that Sasuke could have picked up to replace it.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2012)

> An attempt to explain my point with a numerical example.


First since your the one bringing this up I don't want to later hear you saying numerical shit is invalid and all that BS. Second whether we approach it numerically or otherwise, I believe we will have the same problem and that is our difference in opinion on how great SM is of a power up.

In the model you say SM is +20 while KCM is +25. I'd say both are +25 and equal to one another. 

Also if SM is +20, there is no way that CS should be +10 or half as good as SM. CS would be more accurately +5. And this is not me underestimating CS, it's just that SM literally does everything CS can do (except limited flight) a shit ton better than CS and than adds all these other better abilities on top of it. SM being 4 times better than CS seems legit to me. 

Sasuke strengthening his body/chakra, would also not be that much of a significant increase that it would put him 3/4 of the way to SM enhancements. It would just be enough to make up for CS or slightly more. So like +6 to +7. Also while Sasuke's training can make up for CS where is the minus for the loss of Hebi? 

So now what we have is:

Naruto + KCM + SM = 25+25 = 50 = -15 (overlap) = 35

Now here comes the tricky part if we go with your model Hebi has to equal 20 to make Hebi Sasuke = SM Naruto.

Sasuke Hebi + CS = 5 + 20 = 25

Than Sasuke looses these things so it's -25. He gets back +7 for body/chakra, but that still leaves him at -18. This means for MS Sasuke to equal KCM Naruto, MS has to add +53 all by itself. Which would mean MS has to be a far better power up than KCM + SM combined, hell it even has to better than those 2 if their wasn't minus for overlap. This does in-fact seem far fetched to me and Hebi adding +20 also seems far fetched to me. 

On the other hand if we go with my model where Hebi Sasuke does not have to equal SM Naruto it would be

Sasuke Hebi + CS = 5 + 5 = 10

Sasuke looses these things so it's -10. He gets +7 back for body/chakra and that leaves him at -3. My Model demands MS Sasuke being = SM Naruto, so MS would have to add +27. MS adding slightly more to Sasuke is not that far fetched at all and overall this is a far more realistic model imo.

Now of course than we can get into EMS, KCM, and BM, though that becomes a bit more speculative since we have to guess at the ultimate power of EMS. But for arguments sake let's say it's Perfect Susano'o

Naruto + KCM + SM = 25+25 = 50 = -15 (overlap) = 35

Let's assume EMS would be +30 (3 more than MS power up)

So it would be MS Sasuke = 25 +30 = 55 -15 (overlap) = 40

Than let's say BM and Perfect Susano'o add +40 each, but -15 again for overlap equals +25

So in the end it would be Sasuke = 65 and Naruto = 60. Now we end up with Sasuke having the advantage, but it is not a drastic advantage and it makes sense that Naruto would come into his final duel with Sasuke as the underdog and than through WOF/Determinations/etc...all that BS make up for the +5 points. 



> How much of a plus is all that though? If Naruto couldn't use Frog Fu/different taijutsu anymore, would that impair him greatly? No, since he has KCM which can create multiple arms at once to overwhelm. It's more an issue of taste than anything, although I believe KCMs style is vastly more versatile and hence superior.


All of it is a plus it just depends on the situation. For example against a Dojutsu user Frog Fu is going to be far more effective than chakra arms. 



> Naruto has not once needed to go to SM specifically for any added strength or durability. We don't even know if they're significantly greater if at all greater and KCM has sufficed just fine. At any rate, the author to make a deal out of it. That's how I see the portrayal.


And I think he went SM for added strength when freeing the Yonbi. Not denying that sensing was part of it as well, but I believe it was also for strength. 

Also you have to consider that just because Naruto hasn't found himself in a situation yet were he's using SM for these things, doesn't mean the situation won't arise. It all depends on what he needs for the task at hand. Frog Fu for example seems like it may be useful against Tobi, so it wouldn't surprise me if Naruto pulls that out to use against Tobi.



> The only two real certain things SM has over KCM, which also have been the only reasons Naruto even preferred SM over KCM in those moments, is the recovery and sensing.


+ Reaction Time and Strength. + Stylistically different Taijutsu. 



> I see both modes as seperate, which is probably why I hold KCM in a higher esteem than you. The reason why I see them as seperate is because they are inherently as different as KCM and KN states were or the regular Sharingan and MS are. For KCM Naruto had to get a key and steal some of Kulama's chakra. For BM Naruto had to make peace with Kulama and free him from his prison. Just training KCM wouldn't get Naruto into BM. BM is not a technique like the extendo arms are, something he trained. BM was only possible via making peace and opening the gate, which warrants it as its own power like the differing name for the mode would suggest.


BM literally looks like KCM, just more upgraded with a fancy cloak and longer horns. Also BM and it's abilities are indeed a product of training. If Naruto didn't go through all of that training he would have never been able to tame Kurama or handle Kurama's chakra w/o being overwhelmed by hatred. Let's also not forget that it was the same training that allowed Naruto to utilize Bijuu Bomb in BM. BM is simply the ultimate product of all the training Naruto has done.

However the reason I hold SM in equal esteem as KCM (or possibly even higher), is portrayal (I know how much you like that word) of SM as a power up. Fact of the matter is it's hard for me to say KCM is above SM when the author consistently portrays SM Naruto as a mary sue. When Naruto use SM he suddenly turns into a genius tactician who is able to pull new powers out of his ass whenever he wants. For example the whole SM sensing increasing his reaction time to insane degrees being pulled out of nowhere so he can effortless pawn Sandaime Raikage with basic rasengan. People say Itachi is the mary sue of that manga, but SM Naruto is a far better example of a mary sue than Itachi is. 

The other thing is SM it self has been hyped greatly, for instance the fact that Itachi who typically has a cool demeanor about everything started crap his pants (bit of an exaggeration I know but still) at the idea that Kabuto might have learned senjutsu at Ryuuchidou, really tells me the author does not want SM to be overshadowed by KCM. In-fact I would not be surprised if the way Naruto wins the final battle involves natural energy and SM, considering this manga is heavily inspired by Dragon ball and we all know Goku's best move is the spirit bomb, which has mechanics very similar to SM.



> PS: I just noticed that Naruto dropped KCM involuntarily and couldn't return to that state anymore.. so since that was out of the question I even doubt Naruto was comparing to KCM but rather his base mode when he made the statement about having faster sensing. I'm gonna need a proper look at that again when I get back.


Come on now your reaching for lame excuses again. It's clear that he is talking about KCM, because base mode doesn't even have sensing powers. Furthermore if SM sensing was not superior to KCM/BM than he wouldn't have been using SM to find the stakes in the Tobi fight. Finally it is very clear from the portrayal of those 2 chapters that KCM failed while SM succeed. 

Hell Raikage was evading KCM's attacks like a champ and KCM only landed FRS on him with a complex feint. So it's very doubtful that KCM could wait to the last second to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attack and attack him before he could evade.


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## αce (Aug 3, 2012)

27 pages and you guys are still at it.
I'll give you credit, you're all persistent as fuck.


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## sinjin long (Aug 3, 2012)

yeah,but the last couple of pages have mainly been turrin and sniffers arguing over the pros/cons of SM vs CS.


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## Sniffers (Aug 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Now hold up there, I agree with that on durability. But in the case of strength I think it is clear that SM Naruto > KCM Naruto from feats. And in the case of Jutsu it is clear they are ether equal or SM is better.


In strength I could see SM being better (not saying I do), but in regards of Jutsu hell no. 



Turrin said:


> He was going for a regular Bijuu Bomb, not a a mini one.


I'll give you that.



Turrin said:


> No because there is no way in hell that Kishimoto is accounting for that and It's not like I provided calcs for any of SM Naruto's feats ether.


Well, I don't think Kishimoto feels the need to explicitly show KCM exceeds/matches SMs strength via direct comparisons in the first place either.. for artists it's all about impact/art/coolness. That is the entire reason feats are inconsistent in many works of fiction. For example, take SMs speed feat when Naruto saved Tsunade from Pain. That was intended to look cool, but by no means did Naruto speedblitz beyond that. It's drama. That's how artists work.  

All we know is that both modes increase strength. If one had a clear advantage, we'd know explicitly via a statement or a true comparison like how we know SM has better sensing.



Turrin said:


> The way I posed the question was literally what your were saying. I also asked if KCM made SM mostly obsolete (again what you were saying) and most people disagree with this notion.


You did not. I entertained the thought of equality which was not an option. If I had to chose I'd definately vote for SM too. You completely missed with that poll.

Also, I suggest you read through that thread since many people are saying exactly what I said.



Turrin said:


> Yeah and it was a big deal when Naruto pulled off Bijuu Bomb in BM.


Yeah, since now he can also use a minor version of that power in KCM. Don't compare a Mini Biju Bomb to other random new Rasengan variants. You know better. 



Turrin said:


> Dude you are looking at KCM's feats and comparing them to base mode's to determine that KCM boosts strength. So again you are doing the same exact thing.


It was pointed out how incredible it was that KCM Naruto crushed a rock accidentally. Am I not to gather from that that KCM enhances strength? 



Turrin said:


> I can easily say that Naruto won't learn to control his KCM Shunshin properly until after the rivalry has been concluded. The fact of the matter is in both case we do not know. So ether we only look at what Naruto currently has or we speculate on what he might get. But it's completely unfair to disregard speculation of SM being stacked with KCM, while on the other hand base one of your own arguments on speculation.


I would be surprised if KCM Shunshin was mastered so late. Honestly, I think he's mastered it already just like the mini Biju Bomb. But we'll see.



Turrin said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if KCM did, because Naruto will have BM to replicate the Yellow Flash with. Unless Kishi really wants to hype up Minato to the high heavens and he makes it so KCM's Shunshin is only equal to Minato's Shunshin, while BM Shunshin is much faster than KCM and equal to FTG. So essentially I could see it go ether way.


We'll see. 



Turrin said:


> See the thing is he wouldn't manage though. He wouldn't have defeat Sandaime Raikage. He wouldn't have freed Yonbi or defeated the other 5 Bijuu. And that is the problem I am having with your argument, that the author directly showed he would not manage.
> 
> Sasuke on the other hand has managed w/o CS. Also he could very easily manage w/o Ksunagi sword or immunity to some poisons. You can say the Ksunagi sword saved him in the B fight and was used by Itachi in the Kabuto fight to set up Izanami, but realistically if Sasuke didn't have Ksunagi sword, both things would most likely still have been possible with myriad of different ninja tools that Sasuke could have picked up to replace it.


Just because Naruto used SM sensing doesn't mean it was the only way... In fact, see your own argument on CS for my answer to you.


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## Sniffers (Aug 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> First since your the one bringing this up I don't want to later hear you saying numerical shit is invalid and all that BS.


I already told you it was used as an example only. =/



Turrin said:


> Second whether we approach it numerically or otherwise, I believe we will have the same problem and that is our difference in opinion on how great SM is of a power up.
> 
> In the model you say SM is +20 while KCM is +25. I'd say both are +25 and equal to one another.
> 
> ...



As I said I don't care how you value CS or SM as long as the end results fit. Of course, like you said, if you value SM that much more than CS it'll be problematic.
The minus for Hebi is not there because I started from my view of Kirin Sasuke = FRS Naruto, based on Kirin Sasuke being the object of what Naruto tried to catch up to with FRS training. He did not have Hebi, but did have CS. Not sure where you are starting from.



Turrin said:


> All of it is a plus it just depends on the situation. For example against a Dojutsu user Frog Fu is going to be far more effective than chakra arms.


Why? At VotE extendo arms gave Sasuke a hard time despite the Sharingan. Honestly, I see random branching arms as a FAAAAR greater problem. Not even a close contest IMO.



Turrin said:


> And I think he went SM for added strength when freeing the Yonbi. Not denying that sensing was part of it as well, but I believe it was also for strength.


Well, it wasn't noted as a reason unlike sensing, which brings me to my point of Kishimoto never really setting either one as better in that area.. just that both are great.



Turrin said:


> Also you have to consider that just because Naruto hasn't found himself in a situation yet were he's using SM for these things, doesn't mean the situation won't arise. It all depends on what he needs for the task at hand. Frog Fu for example seems like it may be useful against Tobi, so it wouldn't surprise me if Naruto pulls that out to use against Tobi.


That's the same as my point that just because you think KCM hasn't matched SMs strength, doesn't mean it won't happen. I guess that doesn't get us far though.



Turrin said:


> BM literally looks like KCM, just more upgraded with a fancy cloak and longer horns. Also BM and it's abilities are indeed a product of training. If Naruto didn't go through all of that training he would have never been able to tame Kurama or handle Kurama's chakra w/o being overwhelmed by hatred. Let's also not forget that it was the same training that allowed Naruto to utilize Bijuu Bomb in BM. BM is simply the ultimate product of all the training Naruto has done.


Well, the EMS looks like a fancier MS too. KCM training helped like training MS helped Sasuke for the EMS, but that doesn't make KCM the same power up as BM. Taming Kulama and unlocking a gate is not KCM training. 



Turrin said:


> However the reason I hold SM in equal esteem as KCM (or possibly even higher), is portrayal (I know how much you like that word) of SM as a power up. Fact of the matter is it's hard for me to say KCM is above SM when the author consistently portrays SM Naruto as a mary sue. When Naruto use SM he suddenly turns into a genius tactician who is able to pull new powers out of his ass whenever he wants. For example the whole SM sensing increasing his reaction time to insane degrees being pulled out of nowhere so he can effortless pawn Sandaime Raikage with basic rasengan. People say Itachi is the mary sue of that manga, but SM Naruto is a far better example of a mary sue than Itachi is.


Well, I see SM only being used when KCM is not accessible or to sense stuff. Hardly how I would portray a Sue.



Turrin said:


> The other thing is SM it self has been hyped greatly, for instance the fact that Itachi who typically has a cool demeanor about everything started crap his pants (bit of an exaggeration I know but still) at the idea that Kabuto might have learned senjutsu at Ryuuchidou, really tells me the author does not want SM to be overshadowed by KCM. In-fact I would not be surprised if the way Naruto wins the final battle involves natural energy and SM, considering this manga is heavily inspired by Dragon ball and we all know Goku's best move is the spirit bomb, which has mechanics very similar to SM.


Of course SM gets hyped, so do the other power ups. The MS still gets hyped, but that doesn't mean Kishimoto doesn't intend it to be looked as as great or even superior to EMS.



Turrin said:


> Come on now your reaching for lame excuses again. It's clear that he is talking about KCM, because base mode doesn't even have sensing powers. Furthermore if SM sensing was not superior to KCM/BM than he wouldn't have been using SM to find the stakes in the Tobi fight. Finally it is very clear from the portrayal of those 2 chapters that KCM failed while SM succeed.
> 
> Hell Raikage was evading KCM's attacks like a champ and KCM only landed FRS on him with a complex feint. So it's very doubtful that KCM could wait to the last second to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attack and attack him before he could evade.


Even base mode Naruto should be able to perceive danger... SMs faster and broader though. Oh and SM surely is better at sensing than KCM. I'm merely referring to the quickness aspect of it.

Raikage was evading KCM well when he was *just* evading.. and still got hit. KCM deserves a little more credit again.



Anyways.. the replies are getting too long again. I suppose what it comes down to is how much of a deal we make about SM and KCM (and CS). That should be the focus, but it might be better to take that to the other thread, since we are actually dreadfully off-topic for some time now.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> In strength I could see SM being better (not saying I do), but in regards of Jutsu hell no.


Well from what has been shown so far SM ≥ KCM in jutsu.



> Well, I don't think Kishimoto feels the need to explicitly show KCM exceeds/matches SMs strength via direct comparisons in the first place either.. for artists it's all about impact/art/coolness. That is the entire reason feats are inconsistent in many works of fiction. For example, take SMs speed feat when Naruto saved Tsunade from Pain. That was intended to look cool, but by no means did Naruto speedblitz beyond that. It's drama. That's how artists work.


Okay, so if Kishimoto wanted us to think KCM ≥ SM in strength he would draw a more cool/epic scene, but he has not done so.



> All we know is that both modes increase strength. If one had a clear advantage, we'd know explicitly via a statement or a true comparison like how we know SM has better sensing.


SM was specifically noted in statements to increase a person's strength & durability, so if we're going for portrayal here, there has been greater focus placed on SM's strength & durability increases than KCM.



> You did not. I entertained the thought of equality which was not an option. If I had to chose I'd definately vote for SM too. You completely missed with that poll.
> 
> Also, I suggest you read through that thread since many people are saying exactly what I said.


I did read the thread and most agree with me. Also do you really think it would have changed anything if I put an option for equality? Fact of the matter is this was a trollish argument on your part from the start. You know it and I know it.



> Yeah, since now he can also use a minor version of that power in KCM. Don't compare a Mini Biju Bomb to other random new Rasengan variants. You know better.


Can you seriously just drop this everyone else realizes that FRS > Mini Bijuu Bomb.



> It was pointed out how incredible it was that KCM Naruto crushed a rock accidentally. Am I not to gather from that that KCM enhances strength?


Of course your suppose to draw from that, that the KCM chakra arms are strong. However I repeat, dude you are looking at KCM's feats and comparing them to base mode's to determine that KCM boosts strength. So again you are doing the same exact thing.

Also not sure chakra arms count as physical strength.



> I would be surprised if KCM Shunshin was mastered so late. Honestly, I think he's mastered it already just like the mini Biju Bomb. But we'll see.


If he had already mastered it and it gives him Yellow Flash speed, than I see no reason for Naruto and Kakashi to use their current strategy.



> Just because Naruto used SM sensing doesn't mean it was the only way... In fact, see your own argument on CS for my answer to you.


What is the other way that Naruto could have prevailed in those situations than?



> As I said I don't care how you value CS or SM as long as the end results fit. Of course, like you said, if you value SM that much more than CS it'll be problematic.


I can't see any reason not to value SM that much more than CS



> The minus for Hebi is not there because I started from my view of Kirin Sasuke = FRS Naruto, based on Kirin Sasuke being the object of what Naruto tried to catch up to with FRS training. He did not have Hebi, but did have CS. Not sure where you are starting from.


Yes but isn't your argument that Hebi/CS Sasuke = SM Naruto & MS Sasuke = KCM Naruto. So for that model to work out MS would have to add enough to make up for both the minus of CS & Hebi as well as add enough to match KCM Naruto.



> Why? At VotE extendo arms gave Sasuke a hard time despite the Sharingan. Honestly, I see random branching arms as a FAAAAR greater problem. Not even a close contest IMO.


Your basing this off Part I Sasuke's skills? Stop and think that through for a second. 



> Well, it wasn't noted as a reason unlike sensing, which brings me to my point of Kishimoto never really setting either one as better in that area.. just that both are great.


Kishi has overall portrayed SM as superior in strength, that is why 87.5% of fans consider SM to have superior showings in strength.



> That's the same as my point that just because you think KCM hasn't matched SMs strength, doesn't mean it won't happen. I guess that doesn't get us far though.


KCM was put in a position where KCM needed strength against the Yonbi. If Kishi wanted readers see KCM as better he could have had KCM overpower Yonbi, instead of only being able to barely hold Yonbi's jaws off. SM Naruto on the other hand hasn't been in a position where he needs Frog Fu (post KCM) yet.



> Well, the EMS looks like a fancier MS too. KCM training helped like training MS helped Sasuke for the EMS, but that doesn't make KCM the same power up as BM. Taming Kulama and unlocking a gate is not KCM training.


I simply disagree. KCM and BM are both products of Kurama's chakra, I.E. the same power and the achieving/training of each was rolled into a single arc of training. MS and EMS aren't even the same eyes and the training of each occurs in separate arcs.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2012)

> Well, I see SM only being used when KCM is not accessible or to sense stuff. Hardly how I would portray a Sue.


Well than I don't think you are familiar enough with the definition of a Sue. SM Naruto is sub division of Mary Sue called God Mode Sue:

_"God Mode Sue exists purely to show up how pathetically weak the rest of the world is, and how badly they need his or her help"_

Just look at the Pain Arc. When Naruto arrives Tsunade is reduced to looking like a pathetic weakling along with pretty much everyone else in the village, when Naruto easily takes out Asura Path. Kishi even has the hyuuga dude say, "incredible he took one of the Pains with a single blow", just to highlight how much SM Naruto put everyone else to shame. Than later in that fight we have Shikaku the top strategist in the leaf saying the best thing any of the shinobi can do is stay out of SM Naruto's way because they would only drag him down. Something Kishi felt the need to repeat two more times lol to Hinata and Team Gai. In the Sandaime Raikage fight again we see the entire division get side-lined and told to stay out of Naruto's way the moment he enters SM. Not to mention SM Naruto makes that entire division, Sandaime Raikage, and even KCM Naruto look pathetically weak with the ease at which he dispatches Sandaime Raikage only mere moments after entering SM.

But let's gone onto more traits

"If there's anybody else that is even capable of standing up for themselves, they may lose their abilities for some reason when the character comes into the equation, or become incompetent boobs, or both.  of God Mode Sue"

Kind of like how plot created a reason for Deva Path and Tsunade to loose their powers right before SM Naruto arrived. Or how about Sandaime Raikage losing his ability to use any other type of attack besides a straight forward lunging strike with Hell Bringer the moment SM Naruto arrived, so SM Naruto could defeat him with Rasengan the way he did. How about Kurama conveniently losing his ability to use anything other than physical attacks once SM Naruto appeared.

When it comes to characters being reduced to incompetent boobs. We have Shikaku and Katsuya suddenly thinking that support from multiple highly skilled Jonin would not help to fight Pain, just so SM Naruto can look better by doing it all on his own. How about Pain losing his intelligence and falling for every single on of Naruto's traps. Or Kabuto despite having Senjutsu himself not even realizing the dangers of SM Naruto and just having Sandaime Raikage charge at SM Naruto thinking Sandaime Raikage will blitz him with that straight forward charge.

"They'll probably get captured or find something that they just can't handle. Then the God Mode Sue shows up, saves the day on his or her own at least twice as easily as they usually do when working as a team, and doesn't get his or her ass kicked at all."

See Pain Arc, See Sandaime Raikage, etc... Also SM Naruto has never on panel ever had his ass kicked. We have even seen KCM Naruto get his ass kicked or struggle with opponents, but SM Naruto just steamrolls through everyone almost never getting hit. And the only time he ever did get hit by Pain's Shinra Tensei, Kishi made a point of having it stated that Shinra Tensei did nothing. Or when SM actually looks like it will be defeated by HG Realm + BT, HG realm is turned to stone lol and fucking dies.

"Then he or she stands around and wallows in their praise a bit."

Kind of like how we had 2 whole chapters where Naruto just stands around having the entire village praise him, even his enemies Konan & Nagato, after he wins the day with SM. Or how about the 2 pages dedicated to this at the end of the Sandaime Raikage battle:
old to stay out of Naruto's way
old to stay out of Naruto's way

Or how about when Naruto just stands around and gets praised by all the Bijuu and there Jinchuuriki after using SM in part to defeat them.

"God Mode Sue is so powerful because he or she often gets New Powers as the Plot Demands, and without any explanation or any of the normal limitations that a good writer will insert."

Like in the Sandaime Raikage fight where his sensing suddenly became a method of high order prediction. Like in the Kurama fight where he pulled out Chou Oddoma Rasenrengan. Like in the Bijuu fight when he suddenly has a new Taijutsu move with Frog Smash, I mean why was it even necessary to make that a technique lol. Like in the Pain fight where he pulls out many new powers and techniques as the plot demands.

"The trope name comes from term "God Mode" (or, more specifically, its use in the context of "godmodding"), which often gets used to denote when a player refuses to allow any random chance to negatively impact their character. In this case, the author is pretty much doing just that. "

Yeah SM Naruto fits this exactly. We have seen even seen KCM Naruto in a negative light, but never SM Naruto.



> Of course SM gets hyped, so do the other power ups. The MS still gets hyped, but that doesn't mean Kishimoto doesn't intend it to be looked as as great or even superior to EMS.


I'm sure that the author doesn't intend for people to consider SM as good as BM and no one really does. However in the case of KCM it is hard to ignore the fact that SM is portrayed as a God Mode Sue, while on the other hand we have KCM who has had a much less spectacular portrayal even when talking about against the same enemies or even against enemies weaker than ones that SM Naruto has faced.



> Even base mode Naruto should be able to perceive danger... SMs faster and broader though. Oh and SM surely is better at sensing than KCM. I'm merely referring to the quickness aspect of it.
> 
> Raikage was evading KCM well when he was just evading.. and still got hit. KCM deserves a little more credit again.


Again it's pretty clear that SM Naruto is superior in terms of reaction time due to his sensing and no I don't think he was referring to base Naruto who does not have sensing powers.



> Anyways.. the replies are getting too long again. I suppose what it comes down to is how much of a deal we make about SM and KCM (and CS). That should be the focus, but it might be better to take that to the other thread, since we are actually dreadfully off-topic for some time now.


No It kind of comes down to how much of a deal the author makes about SM and KCM. And so far the author has been portraying SM as a God Mode Sue, while not so much for KCM.


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## Summers (Aug 3, 2012)

That was convincing Turrin but the praise at the end of Sandaime Raikage battle only lasted a bit, the rest was just explanations of what he did. Other than that, awesome stuff.


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## Bloo (Aug 3, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> 27 pages and you guys are still at it.
> I'll give you credit, you're all persistent as fuck.


This.

I can't believe this thread hasn't died yet.


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## Closet Pervert (Aug 3, 2012)

People need to fucking learn I > O > J /-> I > J or how was it someone said it.

Not that i actually think O > J. Or even I > O.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

Summers said:


> That was convincing Turrin but the praise at the end of Sandaime Raikage battle only lasted a bit, the rest was just explanations of what he did. Other than that, awesome stuff.


But the explanation of what he did was kind of to praise him don't you think? Anyway thanks for the vote of confidence.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Aug 4, 2012)

Itachi >>> Orochimaru > (with Edo Tensei, he's stronger than Jiraiya, without, he's on par or stronger) Jiraiya.

It's that simple, really.


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## Sniffers (Aug 4, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Well from what has been shown so far SM ≥ KCM in jutsu.
> 
> 
> Okay, so if Kishimoto wanted us to think KCM ≥ SM in strength he would draw a more cool/epic scene, but he has not done so.
> ...



Not sure why you think SM has better Jutsu, since KCM has shown all kinds of new stuff.
That's not how it works. Just like you argue Kishimoto doesn't account for bite power, he also wouldn't think he'd need to make a new cool scene especially to top/match another cool scene he had once drawn just to convince you.
I don't recall KCM being noted for durability, but for strength it has.
I don't see most agreeing with you though. They say it's not obsolete and still have some uses, which I agree with. Heck, most say KCM is better than SM overall, so does that stop you from making "trollish" statements about SM being equal?
Everyone else realises KCM is better too.
How am I doing the exact same thing? KCM is noted to increase strength. Yes, that is from base I never said otherwise. Also, no chakra arms were used in the biting feat. Finally, it doesn't matter if it is KCMs own arms or chakra arms, the point is that KCM can replace it.
Naruto has speed, but not Hiraishin which is key.
Taiju Kage Bunshin.
Although CS boosts are weaker, the mode is instantly accessible and the transformation allows for numerous utilities.
Yes, that's true and it does, since I took FRS Naruto as base, the plus for SM is accounted for. SM&KCM was +30, and MS&body&minusCS was +30.
I thought it through, I'm just showing it can trick the Sharingan.
That's because many people consider feats to be a legit measure on this forum. When it doesn't work for them they'll call PnJ.
Strength was never the issue. It was for the sensing.
Then KCM isn't a new mode, since Naruto has been using Kulama's chakra since part I.



Turrin said:


> Well than I don't think you are familiar enough with the definition of a Sue. SM Naruto is sub division of Mary Sue called God Mode Sue:
> 
> _"God Mode Sue exists purely to show up how pathetically weak the rest of the world is, and how badly they need his or her help"_
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? SM Naruto got pinned to the ground by Pain and he needed the Kyubi to bail him out. Then, in the war, SM is reduced to a mode which only gets used when Naruto needs to sense or when KCM is unaccessible.
SM is hardly portrayed as a God Mode Sue. It seems you completely ignore SMs weakness.. it's limited use. Besides, MS Sasuke was less than stellar too, since like KCM, those powers were in training.
Well, the author doesn't make as much of a big deal of SM as you do. You completely ignore its weaknesses. Even if Naruto isn't in SM, it's still the SM Naruto incarnation who still got nailed to the ground by Pain and who still needed saving from the Kyubi.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Not sure why you think SM has better Jutsu, since KCM has shown all kinds of new stuff.


What Jutsu has KCM shown which are better than Chou Oddoma Rasengan Barrage or FRS? 



> What's not how it works. Just like you argue Kishimoto doesn't account for bite power, he also wouldn't think he'd need to make a new cool scene especially to top/match another cool scene he had once drawn just to convince you.


Sure it does. Kishi would show KCM doing more impressive shit than SM strength wise if he wanted readers to see it as superior strength. Instead SM still has the more impressive display.



> I don't recall KCM being noted for durability, but for strength it has.


Not so much as SM though.



> I don't see most agreeing with you though. They say it's not obsolete and still have some uses, which I agree with. Heck, most say KCM is better than SM overall, so does that stop you from making "trollish" statements about SM being equal?


I asked people if they thought it was mostly obsolete (your argument). Most disagree. I think people believing KCM is better than SM overall is perfectly valid, just not to the point that it renders SM mostly obsolete. 



> How am I doing the exact same thing? KCM is noted to increase strength. Yes, that is from base I never said otherwise. Also, no chakra arms were used in the biting feat.


Because your still bring up feats such as the biting one to show how KCM has greater strength than Base Naruto.



> Finally, it doesn't matter if it is KCMs own arms or chakra arms, the point is that KCM can replace it.


I just think KCM's Chakra Arms are more relatable to SM's Ghost Punches if anything.



> Naruto has speed, but not Hiraishin which is key.


So he's not as fasts as Minato than?



> Taiju Kage Bunshin


How would Taiju Kage Bushin allow him to accomplish these things?



> Although CS boosts are weaker, the mode is instantly accessible and the transformation allows for numerous utilities.


Yes it's instantly accessible, but the increases are nowhere near SM.



> Yes, that's true and it does, since I took FRS Naruto as base, the plus for SM is accounted for. SM&KCM was +30, and MS&body&minusCS was +30.


I still don't get why your not -Hebi powers.



> I thought it through, I'm just showing it can trick the Sharingan.


Tricking Part I Sasuke is not the same thing as being effective against Part II Sharingan users.



> That's because many people consider feats to be a legit measure on this forum. When it doesn't work for them they'll call PnJ.


It is a legit form of measure. There are instances of PNJ.



> Strength was never the issue. It was for the sensing.


What does this have to do with the fact that KCM was in a position where it needed strength and Kishi could have depicted it as stronger than SM, but did not.



> Then KCM isn't a new mode, since Naruto has been using Kulama's chakra since part I.


Of course it's a different mode, but a different power no. It's just that before this arc, while Naruto trained to call out larger and larger portions of the Fox's chakra he never had control over it.



> What are you talking about? SM Naruto got pinned to the ground by Pain and he needed the Kyubi to bail him out.


That was Base Naruto.



> Then, in the war, SM is reduced to a mode which only gets used when Naruto needs to sense or when KCM is unaccessible.


Regardless it's still portrayed as a God Mode Sue. I provided more than enough proof of that.



> SM is hardly portrayed as a God Mode Sue. It seems you completely ignore SMs weakness.. it's limited use. Besides, MS Sasuke was less than stellar too, since like KCM, those powers were in training.


Not really because the whole point is that when he enters the mode he becomes a God Mode Sue. So i'm only referring to his portrayal in the mode itself. It's like in a video game where someone activates God Mode.



> Well, the author doesn't make as much of a big deal of SM as you do. You completely ignore its weaknesses. Even if Naruto isn't in SM, it's still the SM Naruto incarnation who still got nailed to the ground by Pain and who still needed saving from the Kyubi.


How can you possibly deny that SM Naruto is a God Mode Sue, when I literally provided the definition and many detailed examples of how it fits that definition perfectly. Also there is no such thing as SM incarnation of Naruto, that is just the term the forum made up to qualify a Naruto who has mastered SM, but not yet mastered (KCM/BM). I'm fully aware that it takes time to enter SM and has a limited duration (that's why I don't see it as better than KCM), but I'm just saying when Naruto in the mode itself Kishi portrays him as a God Mode Sue.


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## Closet Pervert (Aug 4, 2012)

Has it ever occured to anyone that these debates are fucking stupid? 'Cause it just did to me.


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## Summers (Aug 4, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> Has it ever occured to anyone that these debates are fucking stupid? 'Cause it just did to me.



I think you just got tired of them,they are quite frequent. It's not stupid, just a bit intense.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 4, 2012)

Sniffers there's no way you believe CS to be on the level off SM

Turrin also Naruto has extended the time limit on SM 

What people don't understand is that Naruto would've destroyed Pain of not for the 5 minute time limit, that's the only way the fight was fair for Pain, but yet KCM Naruto got embarrassed by Nagato who was immobile with help from Killer B.

SM has outperformed KCM period, BM is Naruto combining his power with Kurama so off course that would be stronger than SM or KCM.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 4, 2012)

A lot of people use A>B>C logic when discussing Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru's power levels, whether they're aware of it or not.

Itachi is capable of beating Orochimaru, but it doesn't necessarily make him any stronger. Orochimaru is on the same level as Itachi as far as I'm concerned, Itachi just appears to be a bad match-up for him, hence why Orochimaru was so easily defeated.

Itachi noted how powerful Jiraiya was in Part I, and I think the manga makes it clear that both him and Itachi are about equal with each other. The Sannin = Itachi, from a plot view-point, at least.​


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## Rios (Aug 4, 2012)

Its not stupid. Reading gems like this



> Itachi is capable of beating Orochimaru, but it doesn't necessarily make him any stronger.



makes it worthwhile.


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## hmph (Aug 4, 2012)

It must be terrible living a life where you can only comprehend things in a line. Can't even play rock paper scissors


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 4, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A lot of people use A>B>C logic when discussing Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru's power levels, whether they're aware of it or not.
> 
> Itachi is capable of beating Orochimaru, but it doesn't necessarily make him any stronger. *Orochimaru is on the same level as Itachi as far as I'm concerned, Itachi just appears to be a bad match-up for him, hence why Orochimaru was so easily defeated.*
> 
> Itachi noted how powerful Jiraiya was in Part I, and I think the manga makes it clear that both him and Itachi are about equal with each other. The Sannin = Itachi, from a plot view-point, at least.​





How is Itachi a bad match-up for Orochimaru exactly?
Is is because he much faster then Orochimaru? Is it because he outsmarts him? Is it because he can rape him with base genjutsu, despite Oro having 5/5 genjutsu stats?

This "bad match-up" thing needs to stop. Just because Oro could not escape base genjutsu from Itachi, does not make it a bad match up. It means Itachi is on a whole other level

The Sannin equaling Itachi in terms of power and skill is way to ridiculous. We got Itachi raping Oro at age 11. Then his statement that even with back-up Kisame + Itachi ~ Jiraya *at best*. Thats what he said, which again makes no sense

This would mean Jiraya is a tier above Itachi, and even 2 tiers above Orochimaru. Unless Itachi was lying


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## hmph (Aug 4, 2012)

A 5/5 genjutsu stat doesn't mean much. Itachi and Tayuya both had 5s in genjutsu, yet we both know Tayuya fodderizes Itachi in it.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> How is Itachi a bad match-up for Orochimaru exactly?


Oh Idk maybe it's because the best way to counter Orochimaru's two greatest abilities shirohebi regen and Edo Tensei is Genjutsu, and Itachi just so happens to be one of the top Genjutsu masters in the manga. It's not that hard to understand.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 4, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Oh Idk maybe it's because the best way to counter Orochimaru's two greatest abilities shirohebi regen and Edo Tensei is Genjutsu, and Itachi just so happens to be one of the top Genjutsu masters in the manga. It's not that hard to understand.



Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu and Jiraiya a 3, he'd be his worst matchup if Orochimaru had a 1 in Genjutsu or a 2.

Jiraiya was looking straight at his eyes.

For Itachi's statement to be true, it would mean Jiraiya is two tiers above Orochimaru, which he is not, since theres no way in hell Orochimaru would last a minute againts Itachi + Kisame + more Akatsuki backup.


----------



## hmph (Aug 4, 2012)

Ah, but Shikamaru had a 3 in genjutsu and he can break Tayuya's, unlike Itachi.


----------



## Bloo (Aug 4, 2012)

hmph said:


> Ah, but Shikamaru had a 3 in genjutsu and he can break Tayuya's, unlike Itachi.


Itachi got out of it without hurting himself, and the genjutsu Itachi faced was Sage enhanced.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 4, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Itachi got out of it without hurting himself, and the genjutsu Itachi faced was Sage enhanced.



Dude you should not repond to stupidity with seriousness.


----------



## hmph (Aug 4, 2012)

> Itachi got out of it without hurting himself, and the genjutsu Itachi faced was Sage enhanced.



He got out because Sasuke got him out, and remember, CS=SM!



> Dude you should not repond to stupidity with seriousness.



Theres a tragic yet hilarious irony to you saying that.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2012)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A lot of people use A>B>C logic when discussing Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru's power levels, whether they're aware of it or not.
> 
> Itachi is capable of beating Orochimaru, but it doesn't necessarily make him any stronger. Orochimaru is on the same level as Itachi as far as I'm concerned, Itachi just appears to be a bad match-up for him, hence why Orochimaru was so easily defeated.
> 
> Itachi noted how powerful Jiraiya was in Part I, and I think the manga makes it clear that both him and Itachi are about equal with each other. The Sannin = Itachi, from a plot view-point, at least.​



Itachi is clearly a tier above Orochimaru, this is an indisputable fact and anyone who thinks otherwise are living in denial. 

Manga showed Itachi beating Orochimaru at aged 11 with just base genjutsu. This defeat was enough for Orochimaru to admit inferiority. Manga again showed Itachi beating Orochimaru while half blind and in severe pain. So I can't see where you got Sannin = Itachi from, if the strongest Sannin got humiliated in few panels twice.

There is no such thing as bad match up, if there is then Itachi is actually a bad match up against Jiraiya more than Orochimaru. As Orochimaru is seen as strong in genjutsu while Jiraiya admitted to be weak in genjutsu field making him more susceptible to genjutsu. Jiraiya taught his method of breaking genjutsu to Naruto and he failed miserably to break it even though he has bijuu level chakra and strong chakra control. 

Plot never portrayed Sannin to be equal with Jiraiya, if anything plot portrayed Itachi to be atleast 2 tier above them. 

Itachi beat the strongest Sannin with genjutsu. This Sannin happens to be genjutsu type. If Orochimaru could not beat Itachi then Jiraiya and Tsunade has no chance of beating him. As Orochimaru is more suited to fight Itachi's genjutsu than Jiraiya and Tsunade. 

And Tsunade actually has more chance of beating Itachi's genjutsu than Jiraiya.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Manga showed Itachi beating Orochimaru at aged 11 with just base genjutsu.



The rest of the fight was off paneled, losing an arm is hardly a defeat for Orochimaru seeing as his real body is a snake anyway.   




Kakashi Hatake said:


> This defeat was enough for Orochimaru to admit inferiority.



Nobody is arguing Orochimaru is as strong or stronger than Itachi.  However keep in mind that Oro had Edo Madara with senju cells in his lab, so its likely he wasn't including edo tensei in this statement.  



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Manga again showed Itachi beating Orochimaru while half blind and in severe pain. So I can't see where you got Sannin = Itachi from, if the strongest Sannin got humiliated in few panels twice.



Itachi used his most powerful ability against Orochimaru's most powerful ability, fights rarely last very long in Naruto.  



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Plot never portrayed Sannin to be equal with Jiraiya, if anything plot portrayed Itachi to be atleast 2 tier above them.



Where are you getting this arbitrary tier statements?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> The rest of the fight was off paneled, losing an arm is hardly a defeat for Orochimaru seeing as his real body is a snake anyway.



Big Assumption



> Nobody is arguing Orochimaru is as strong or stronger than Itachi.  However keep in mind that Oro had Edo Madara with senju cells in his lab, so its likely he wasn't including edo tensei in this statement.



Again another big Assumption.



> Itachi used his most powerful ability against Orochimaru's most powerful ability, fights rarely last very long in Naruto.



You forgot to mention that Itachi defeated Orochimaru in one-two panel in his weakest state.


----------



## sinjin long (Aug 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Big Assumption
> 
> 
> 
> ...



really? your gonna tell people about assumption?

orochimaru is the stongest sannin=ASSUMPTION

and # 2 we don't know what would of happened with itachi vs orochimaru IF oro was full power(edo-tensei senju bros) bloodlusted & going for the kill rather than trying to take his body.

trying to take a new container sorta hamstrings your usable arsenal being that you don't really want to damage your new container as opposed to outright destroying your opponent. which is exactly what oro was going for in both cases vs itachi.

not to mention it was shown in the first confrontation that oro was getting ready to either kai out of itachi's genjutsu or perform some other jutsu.

next time try putting all the details out there and having some context rather than just present itachi solo's. like thats all there was to it.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Big Assumption



How is that an assumption?  The fight wasn't shown, unless you believe Itachi put Orochimaru in a genjutsu and then just ran away.  



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Again another big Assumption.



Whats an assumption?  Kabuto stated Orochimaru created the Madara we see now.  You don't actually believe Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru who has Madara under his control do you?  



Kakashi Hatake said:


> You forgot to mention that Itachi defeated Orochimaru in one-two panel in his weakest state.



Weakest state?  He was using his strongest move, it had no bearing on the strength of his Susano.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> really? your gonna tell people about assumption?
> 
> orochimaru is the stongest sannin=ASSUMPTION



Not according to the manga.



> and # 2 we don't know what would of happened with itachi vs orochimaru IF oro was full power(edo-tensei senju bros) bloodlusted & going for the kill rather than trying to take his body.



That is why its assumption/speculation at best to say Orochimaru whether he included ET in his judgement or not. 



> trying to take a new container sorta hamstrings your usable arsenal being that you don't really want to damage your new container as opposed to outright destroying your opponent. which is exactly what oro was going for in both cases vs itachi.



Again another big assumption. We seen the fight and it didn't last very long.



> not to mention it was shown in the first confrontation that oro was getting ready to either kai out of itachi's genjutsu or perform some other jutsu.



And he failed, your point?



> next time try putting all the details out there and having some context rather than just present itachi solo's. like thats all there was to it.



Yeah like you did, huh?



jimbob631 said:


> How is that an assumption?  The fight wasn't shown, unless you believe Itachi put Orochimaru in a genjutsu and then just ran away.



I believe what the manga has shown. 



> Whats an assumption?  Kabuto stated Orochimaru created the Madara we see now.  You don't actually believe Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru who has Madara under his control do you?



Show me where Kabuto stated this? 

Its an assumption at best to say Orochimaru did not include ET in his judgement of skills. 

I believe Itachi is the perfect counter to ET just like the manga portrayed him to be and there is no evidence whatsoever that Orochimaru had Madara prepped as an ET. 



> Weakest state?  He was using his strongest move, it had no bearing on the strength of his Susano.



Actually it does, seeing how Itachi is half blind, he is likely to miss his target. Seeing how every single part of his body was in pain, he could have collapsed at any moment even if he had susano.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 4, 2012)

Rios said:


> Its not stupid. Reading gems like this
> 
> 
> 
> makes it worthwhile.



You took that quote out of context, but alright, suit yourself.



hitokugutsu said:


> How is Itachi a bad match-up for Orochimaru exactly?



Because evidently, Orochimaru has nothing to counter genjutsu with. His oral rebirth can be reversed by the sharingan, and he doesn't seem to have the chakra control to release himself from high level illusions. 



> Is is because he much faster then Orochimaru? Is it because he outsmarts him? Is it because he can rape him with base genjutsu, despite Oro having 5/5 genjutsu stats?



Having a 5 in genjutsu means you're good at using it, it doesn't mean you're good at countering it. 



> This "bad match-up" thing needs to stop. Just because Oro could not escape base genjutsu from Itachi, does not make it a bad match up. It means Itachi is on a whole other level



Not really. Orochimaru can take on a variety of opponents like Itachi can, he has left behind a huge legacy, he's renowned for being incredibly powerful, was considered for Kage, named a child prodigy - feat wise, I don't think Orochimaru competes with Itachi, because Itachi is a Mary sue character who pulls new jutsu out whenever the plot desires it. However, I'm fairly certain he is written to be on the same level as him. 



> The Sannin equaling Itachi in terms of power and skill is way to ridiculous. We got Itachi raping Oro at age 11. Then his statement that even with back-up Kisame + Itachi ~ Jiraya *at best*. Thats what he said, which again makes no sense



It isn't really. Considering the scale of techniques the Sannin can perform. Jiraiya can create village sized katons, Tsunade can perform medical ninjutsu on hundreds of people at once, Orochimaru can effortlessly barf up hundreds of sword wielding snakes - their techniques are overwhelming. I don't think it matters if they can beat Itachi based on feats or not, I'm fairly certain that their supposed to be on the same/a similar level to Itachi.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu and Jiraiya a 3, he'd be his worst matchup if Orochimaru had a 1 in Genjutsu or a 2.



Being good at genjutsu =/= Being able to counter genjutsu.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi is clearly a tier above Orochimaru, this is an indisputable fact and anyone who thinks otherwise are living in denial.



Whatever floats your boat.



> Manga showed Itachi beating Orochimaru at aged 11 with just base genjutsu. This defeat was enough for Orochimaru to admit inferiority. Manga again showed Itachi beating Orochimaru while half blind and in severe pain. So I can't see where you got Sannin = Itachi from, if the strongest Sannin got humiliated in few panels twice.



This is exactly my point. People are using A>B>C logic.

Just because Itachi >> Orochimaru in combat, it doesn't mean Itachi >> Orochimaru in general. There are opponents Orochimaru is more suited to fighting than Itachi is, Itachi could struggle fighting a certain opponent more than Orochimaru would. 

For example, a gated Gai can avoid looking in Itachi's eyes, so he can't trap him in Tsukuyomi or eye-genjutsu. Gates releases huge amounts of chakra through Gai's system, so he can arguably break himself out of any finger illusions he gets placed into as well. He's fast enough in gates to out-run Amaterasu for a while, and has enough offense to render some of Itachi's basic jutsu like clones, ineffective.

On the other hand, Orochimaru is more or less immune to Gai's taijutsu, and Gai doesn't really have any good ways of inflicting damage to him. Orochimaru is more suited to fighting Gai, than Itachi is.

Admittedly, I do think Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru combat-wise, but only marginally, they're around the same strength, and in terms of skill, they're definitely on the same level. 



> *There is no such thing as bad match up*, if there is then Itachi is actually a bad match up against Jiraiya more than Orochimaru. As Orochimaru is seen as strong in genjutsu while Jiraiya admitted to be weak in genjutsu field making him more susceptible to genjutsu. Jiraiya taught his method of breaking genjutsu to Naruto and he failed miserably to break it even though he has bijuu level chakra and strong chakra control.



What? _Of course there is_. Pitting a close ranged fighter like Sakura with no ranged moves against a long ranged fighter like Temari? Once Temari is at a range, Sakura is done for. Or Deidara vs Tsunade, once Deidara is airborne Tsunade can't do anything to him. Or Kiba vs Suigetsu, he can't damage him with physical attacks because of his liquid body. There is definitely such a thing as bad match-ups.

Being strong in genjutsu =/= being good at countering it. Also, Naruto didn't have that great control of his chakra at the time, at least not great enough to counter illusions from the greatest genjutsu user in the manga.



> Plot never portrayed Sannin to be equal with Jiraiya, if anything plot portrayed Itachi to be atleast 2 tier above them.



From the scale of feats the Sannin perform, their hype, the legacies they've left for the next generations, the fact that they were all offered the position of Hokage - I think they're on the same level as Itachi. Itachi's had more fights, he's pulled more jutsu out because the plot demands it. He has better feats, but I don't consider him any stronger, from a plot-perspective.



> Itachi beat the strongest Sannin with genjutsu. This Sannin happens to be genjutsu type. If Orochimaru could not beat Itachi then Jiraiya and Tsunade has no chance of beating him. As Orochimaru is more suited to fight Itachi's genjutsu than Jiraiya and Tsunade.



I don't think Orochimaru is the strongest Sannin, I think they are all equals. I think in terms of feats, Jiraiya is the strongest, however. Tsunade is arguably the most intelligent out of the Sannin, and she has the highest chakra control out of any character in the manga - so she has the best counter to genjutsu, since countering it requires intelligence and high control over your chakra. Orochimaru couldn't break Itachi's illusions, but he never showed any resistance to it prior, so that isn't a valid argument.​


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I believe what the manga has shown.



The manga showed Orochimaru breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu and Oro getting his arm cut off.  We already know that cutting Oro's arms does not mean hes been defeated as its not even his real body.   



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Show me where Kabuto stated this?



Not according to the manga.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Actually it does, seeing how Itachi is half blind, he is likely to miss his target. Seeing how every single part of his body was in pain, he could have collapsed at any moment even if he had susano.c



He used his strongest ability to the same extent as when he fought Nagato.  There was no difference from when he fought Oro to when he fought Nagato.  What was portrayed in the manga was Itachi's strongest ninjutsu was used to take down Orochimaru.  This is manga fact.  If you want to argue feats also I can easily make an argument explaining that Orochimaru's hydra mode protects him from amaterasu and any of Itachi's genjutsu.


----------



## Vice (Aug 4, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Itachi got out of it without hurting himself, and the genjutsu Itachi faced was Sage enhanced.



No, Itachi got out of it via Sasuke. Shikamaru got out of it himself.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 4, 2012)

Vice said:


> No, Itachi got out of it via Sasuke. Shikamaru got out of it himself.



I don't think it matters unless you really beileve Kabuto can beat Itachi with this justu alone.

But being that its you i would not doubt it.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 4, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu and Jiraiya a 3, he'd be his worst matchup if Orochimaru had a 1 in Genjutsu or a 2.
> 
> Jiraiya was looking straight at his eyes.
> 
> For Itachi's statement to be true, it would mean Jiraiya is two tiers above Orochimaru, which he is not, since theres no way in hell Orochimaru would last a minute againts Itachi + Kisame + more Akatsuki backup.


Dude I have no time for someone who is just repeating BS arguments which have long since been debunked. My comment didn't even have anything to do with Jiraiya vs Itachi for goodness sake, it had to do with Orochimaru vs Itachi.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi is clearly a tier above  Orochimaru, this is an indisputable fact and anyone who thinks otherwise  are living in denial.


Orochimaru may be unable to defeat Itachi, but that doesn't mean they're not on the same tier. Anyone who thinks that claims based on fan-made tiers are "facts" needs to consult a dictionary. 


Kakashi Hatake said:


> Not according to the manga.


And that's armless Orochimaru's momentary advantage over a drugged Jiraiya. It doesn't mean a thing.


> Actually  it does, seeing how Itachi is half blind, he is likely to miss his  target.


And he didn't miss a single target. Apparently, your idea is nothing but conjecture.


----------



## Vice (Aug 4, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> I don't think it matters unless you really beileve Kabuto can beat Itachi with this justu alone.



I'm not seeing the problem.


----------



## 5hadow (Aug 5, 2012)

How did this thread reach 30 pages?

Also, The King >>> Sannin


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

Ayep, its funny. When Itachi says he can only draw with Jiraiya its immediately accepted as the truth and any notion of him and Jiraiya not being on the same level is ludicrous.

But when Orochimaru himself says Itachi is stronger than him they look at any and all loopholes possible to prove that it wasnt a real fight, Orochimaru was just trying to take over him, not kill him, Itachi is a bad matchup and etc but hey they are still on the same level even though the manga disagrees. Who said hypocrisy? You sir win the prize!


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 5, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Orochimaru may be unable to defeat Itachi, but that doesn't mean they're not on the same tier. Anyone who thinks that claims based on fan-made tiers are "facts" needs to consult a dictionary.



So having Oro himself proclaim Itachi to be an impossible dream is fan made fact? 
Itachi is stronger then the sanin, just accept it and move on people.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

DragonOfChoas said:


> So having Oro himself proclaim Itachi to be an impossible dream is fan made fact?


I never said Orochimaru's words were fan-made. I said tiers are. 

Please learn how to read.


> Itachi is stronger then the sanin, just accept it and move on people.


Itachi disagrees. It has been agreed long ago that Itachi could at best draw against Jiraiya.


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

And as we all know he never lies.

"I did it to test my abilities *shrugs*"


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

Rios said:


> And as we all know he never lies.
> 
> "I did it to test my abilities *shrugs*"


So he lied about everything else too, yes?

No.

He had no reason to lie about Jiraiya's strength. Why would he?


----------



## Seraphiel (Aug 5, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> So he lied about everything else too, yes?
> 
> No.
> 
> He had no reason to lie about Jiraiya's strength. Why would he?



So him and Kisame wouldn't slaughter Jiraiya right there and then.


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

Two things have been established with this quote.

A) Itachi can and will lie when he has to further his plans. In that example he already had his plans for Sasuke laid down so he played the bad guy. In similar situation it is appropriate to assume that he will do the same and act of character.

B) In the situation at hand he had all the reason to 
 a) leave Konoha without causing irreversible damage, which also means leaving when his task is finished(taking a look at Naruto and making sure Sasuke is following his plan)
 b) make sure his partner doesnt suspect him, he is a spy for this very same village after all

In conclusion what he said makes perfect sense. Kisame is obviously aware how strong he is, but not how strong Jiraiya is. Hyping up Jiraiya as an opponent they can not defeat fast and without heavy injuries was the right course of action. Kisame will believe because of Itachi's greater knowledge of Konoha shinobi. 

What he said should be taken with grain of salt is all I am saying. The big revelation supports it.

Thats all pretty much. Even back then his words were faced with suspicion. Unfortunately now instead of taking them into context debaters are just using them to further their bias.


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## DragonOfChoas (Aug 5, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> So he lied about everything else too, yes?
> 
> No.
> 
> He had no reason to lie about Jiraiya's strength. Why would he?



What excuse would he have then not to take Naruto then? 
And why would he kill Konoha's strongest ninja at the time? he was doing it all for the village as it is. 

And to further solidify that something about his claim was fishy we have Kisame wondering why retreat is necessary for Itachi (link)


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

Imagine this scenario: Jiraiya was looking Itachi in the eye without giving a shit. It wasnt bunshin or illusion or anything, the man himself was staring down an Uchiha.

Itachi then proceeds to Tsukuyomi his ass instead of Kakashi's, while Jiraiya is in a daze they both incapacitate or outright kill him. Then what? What excuse he'll have to not just haul Naruto on his back and give him to AL for safekeeping?

Running away was the only reasonable thing, his words were more of a bluff to calm down Kisame. Naruto was supposed to be the last so it worked, otherwise I can see Kisame just going full out and engaging.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> So him and Kisame wouldn't slaughter Jiraiya right there and then.





Rios said:


> A) Itachi can and will lie when he has to further  his plans. In that example he already had his plans for Sasuke laid down  so he played the bad guy. In similar situation it is appropriate to  assume that he will do the same and act of character.
> 
> B) In the situation at hand he had all the reason to
> a) leave Konoha without causing irreversible damage, which also means  leaving when his task is finished(taking a look at Naruto and making  sure Sasuke is following his plan)
> b) make sure his partner doesnt suspect him, he is a spy for this very same village after all





DragonOfChoas said:


> What excuse would he have then not to take Naruto then?
> And why would he kill Konoha's strongest ninja at the time? he was doing it all for the village as it is.
> 
> And to further solidify that something about his claim was fishy we have Kisame wondering why retreat is necessary for Itachi (link)


Itachi and Kisame didn't need to capture Naruto at the time because of the bijuu sealing order: Kurama had to be the last. This was already Itachi's excuse to leave. He didn't need another.


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

But taking out powerful shinobi is important too. Pain himself said that Kakashi is too dangerous for him to let him live, he had no real reason to kill him but did try to anyway. 

Kisame is bloodthirsty. Seeing Jiraya in 2v1 situation, knowing that his is a powerful sannin damn right he'll want to fight. Itachi's words were what stopped him. He needed an excuse to not fight and instead get out of there, dragging Kisame with him.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

Rios said:


> Kisame is bloodthirsty. Seeing Jiraya in 2v1 situation, knowing that his is a powerful sannin damn right he'll want to fight.


He showed no bloodthirsty desire to fight Jiraiya, however. He basically just stood there after Jiraiya appeared. 


> Itachi's words were what stopped him.


He was "stopped"? He didn't even begin.


> He needed an excuse to not fight and instead get out of there, dragging Kisame with him.


And his excuse was: "The way Naruto is now, there is no need to rush."


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

And in the end he questioned Itachi's retreat. You are good at nitpicking words however facts are facts - Kisame was surprised they had to retreat in the face of a single opponent. 

And lol at the "he stood there" . Hey, lets cut off Naruto's legs, this should be fun.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 5, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sniffers there's no way you believe CS to be on the level off SM


I don't. It's manga fact that it's inferior.



Eliyua23 said:


> What people don't understand is that Naruto would've destroyed Pain of not for the 5 minute time limit, that's the only way the fight was fair for Pain, but yet KCM Naruto got embarrassed by Nagato who was immobile with help from Killer B.
> 
> SM has outperformed KCM period, BM is Naruto combining his power with Kurama so off course that would be stronger than SM or KCM.


The 5 minute time limit is an inherent limitation. No-one argues about a Sasuke or Itachi with infinite Susano either, because they are balanced by their risks.

If Pain didn't have his power on cooldown he'd have murderstomped SM Naruto.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 5, 2012)

Turrin said:


> What Jutsu has KCM shown which are better than Chou Oddoma Rasengan Barrage or FRS?


Oh I see, you look at sheer power. I look at utility. Rasenrangan, Rasenkyugan and mini FRS adds more than another very destructive Rasengan. Not to mention that KCM Naruto can produce way more Kage Bunshin. It also adds mini Biju Bomb. Also, the extendo arms allow for a whole lot of manouvering as shown when Naruto hit the Raikage.

Besides Chou Odama Rasengan Barrage is a mindscape attack where Naruto did things he can't IRL, like going SM while moving, or making many SM clones in the first place. That attack doesn't count in the real world. That leaves FRS, which KCM also has....



Turrin said:


> Sure it does. Kishi would show KCM doing more impressive shit than SM strength wise if he wanted readers to see it as superior strength. Instead SM still has the more impressive display.


If Kishimoto wanted for either one to be seen as greater he'd explicitly compare them. It was THE opportunity with freeing the first stake, but then the only reason mentioned for going SM is the sensing part. This should already show that either modes don't really top the other in terms of strength.



Turrin said:


> I asked people if they thought it was mostly obsolete (your argument). Most disagree. I think people believing KCM is better than SM overall is perfectly valid, just not to the point that it renders SM mostly obsolete.


Most say it still has its uses. Which basically says enough.. and is what I said as well. 



Turrin said:


> Because your still bring up feats such as the biting one to show how KCM has greater strength than Base Naruto.


Huh?



Turrin said:


> I just think KCM's Chakra Arms are more relatable to SM's Ghost Punches if anything.


That doesn't mean they can't fill in other areas.



Turrin said:


> So he's not as fasts as Minato than?


You don't match teleportation. Minato's Shunshin on the other hand..



Turrin said:


> How would Taiju Kage Bushin allow him to accomplish these things?


Naruto found stuff by making Taiju Kage Bunshin before.. You are basically asking me to write a scenario and it simply can be done.



Turrin said:


> Yes it's instantly accessible, but the increases are nowhere near SM.


Indeed, but SM is limited in both time and activation duration, that balances it. Of course SM is still overall better.



Turrin said:


> I still don't get why your not -Hebi powers.


I start from FRS Naruto and Kirin Sasuke. Kirin Sasuke being pre-Hebi.



Turrin said:


> Tricking Part I Sasuke is not the same thing as being effective against Part II Sharingan users.


SM being useful in chapter 435 is not the same as being effective against chapter 580 opponents. Weird argument you have there.



Turrin said:


> It is a legit form of measure. There are instances of PNJ.


The second sentence destroys the first one.



Turrin said:


> What does this have to do with the fact that KCM was in a position where it needed strength and Kishi could have depicted it as stronger than SM, but did not.


Who says Kishimoto wanted to show KCM as stronger? They likely are in the same area.



Turrin said:


> Of course it's a different mode, but a different power no. It's just that before this arc, while Naruto trained to call out larger and larger portions of the Fox's chakra he never had control over it.


What you call different power ups seems to have no logic to it. I honestly don't see it.. and I doubt others do.



Turrin said:


> That was Base Naruto.


Yeah, after Pain forcefully absorbed the Sage Chakra...



Turrin said:


> Regardless it's still portrayed as a God Mode Sue. I provided more than enough proof of that.


You count MS blindness, but not SMs limits. Honestly...



Turrin said:


> Not really because the whole point is that when he enters the mode he becomes a God Mode Sue. So i'm only referring to his portrayal in the mode itself. It's like in a video game where someone activates God Mode.
> 
> How can you possibly deny that SM Naruto is a God Mode Sue, when I literally provided the definition and many detailed examples of how it fits that definition perfectly. Also there is no such thing as SM incarnation of Naruto, that is just the term the forum made up to qualify a Naruto who has mastered SM, but not yet mastered (KCM/BM). I'm fully aware that it takes time to enter SM and has a limited duration (that's why I don't see it as better than KCM), but I'm just saying when Naruto in the mode itself Kishi portrays him as a God Mode Sue.


First of all, SM Naruto got beaten by Pain in chapter 435. Also, now SM only gets used when KCM is out of reach or when to sense. Heck in one case its made to sense and then disappears again having done nothing. I don't call that a God Mode, sorry.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 5, 2012)

Rios said:


> And in the end he questioned Itachi's retreat.
> You are good at nitpicking words however facts are facts - Kisame was surprised they had to retreat in the face of a single opponent.


Indeed, Kisame questioned Itachi's decision. And what answer did Itachi provide? 
here

There was no need to be hasty, and he needed to rest.

Or:

何故退く必要が・・・
Why do we need to retreat?

アナタなら・・・
You could 

今のナルトなら焦る必要は・・・ない
The way naruto is now, there is no need to rush.



> And lol at the "he stood there" . Hey, lets cut off Naruto's legs, this should be fun.


That was prior to Jiraiya's arrival. What did he do when Jiraiya appeared? Nothing evidently bloodthirsty, unless you call standing and running away bloodthirsty.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

So lets look at the situation.....


Kisame and Itachi are having a chat and Kisame is hyping up Jiraiya and saying how strong he is. We may be no match etc....Itachi then confirms this by saying a fight could lead to death. So if Itachi's intentions were to protect Naruto or Konoha and lie about Jiraiya that would end the subject. They would leave and come back later. Itachi could say something like "Konoha may still be pursuing us and a fight with Jiraiya would be bad. Lets get out dis bitch". INSTEAD he just so happens to mention that everyone has a weakness and he makes sure to get Jiraiya away from Naruto. So what did he do by saying this? He gave them a good reason to approach Naruto. He has no deadly guardian any more because said guardian is out pickin up the ladies. 

So something just doesn't work with this explanation Itachi fans try to create to validate their own existence by having their fave be the strongest ever. Where exactly is the lie? Or where exactly is he protecting Konoha by giving Kisame a good reason to chop Naruto up? I don't see it.


Not that it matters but so what if Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya? Jiraiya can still kill him according to Itachi's own words so what is proven even if you could prove Itachi is stronger? That means what exactly? That Jiraiya kills him but you still have bragging rights?


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:
			
		

> Kisame and Itachi are having a chat and Kisame is hyping up Jiraiya and saying how strong he is. We may be no match etc....Itachi then confirms this by saying a fight could lead to death. So if Itachi's intentions were to protect Naruto or Konoha and lie about Jiraiya that would end the subject. They would leave and come back later. Itachi could say something like "Konoha may still be pursuing us and a fight with Jiraiya would be bad. Lets get out dis bitch". INSTEAD he just so happens to mention that everyone has a weakness and he makes sure to get Jiraiya away from Naruto. So what did he do by saying this? He gave them a good reason to approach Naruto. He has no deadly guardian any more because said guardian is out pickin up the ladies.



He got Jiraiya away from Naruto because he knew it would only be temporary, ensuring a situation where Jiriaya would return and he and Kisame would need to run. Remember, Itachi _wanted_ to run, so he set up Jiriaya as an enemy they could not fight and would need to run from.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> So lets look at the situation.....
> 
> 
> Kisame and Itachi are having a chat and Kisame is hyping up Jiraiya and saying how strong he is.



Stopped reading there.

Kisame wasn't talking about Jiraiya; he was talking about _Jiraiya's reputation_, the same reputation Itachi shat at when he was eleven. 

Kisame doesn't even know Jiraiya or his powers, he judged him by his reputation, saying that the Uchiha and Seven Sword thingy pales in comparison.

Seriously, when Orochimaru admits that Itachi is by far stronger than him (he's also proven it twice), you people deny it, trying to find every loophole but when Itachi, a known lair, says *him plus Kisame and Akatsuki backup < Jiraiya*, it's true  hypocrisy at its finest. That shit is beyond retarded.

Itachi is at least two tiers above the Sannin.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> He got Jiraiya away from Naruto because he knew it would only be temporary, ensuring a situation where Jiriaya would return and he and Kisame would need to run.



He had no way of knowing how long it would take or how long that would take.

So no, I don't see it.

Temporary could mean hours. 



			
				L. Messi [✔];44029629 said:
			
		

> Kisame wasn't talking about Jiraiya; he was talking about _Jiraiya's reputation_,



A dumb explanation. 

Obviously he is talking about Jiraiya if he is talking about Jiraiya's rep. 



> Kisame doesn't even know Jiraiya or his powers, he judged him by his reputation, saying that the Uchiha and Seven Sword thingy pales in comparison.



We don't know the extent of what Kisame would know. For that matter it isn't really relevant. 



> Seriously, when Orochimaru admits that Itachi is by far stronger than him (he's also proven it twice), you people deny it



I never denied it. So that doesn't apply here. Try again. 



> Itachi is at least two tiers above the Sannin.



In the Itachi tard version of the manga this is a certainty. The problem is that we are discussing this on Narutoforums where we all read the manga called Naruto. So no, you are wrong.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:
			
		

> He had no way of knowing how long it would take or how long that would take.
> 
> So no, I don't see it.
> 
> Temporary could mean hours.



It's just one of many unbelievable-sounding plans in this series. Pretty much everything Itachi planned falls into this category.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> He had no way of knowing how long it would take or how long that would take.
> 
> A dumb explanation.
> 
> Obviously he is talking about Jiraiya if he is talking about Jiraiya's rep.



No, Kisame was referring to Jiraya's repuation as "one of the Sannin"
Jiraya's rep was referred to as being a Sannin. The same reputation Itachi shitted on at age 11/13



> We don't know the extent of what Kisame would know. For that matter it isn't really relevant.



So now Kisame doesnt the know the extent of Jiraya's reputation? But the opposite doesnt apply right? 

If Jiraya knew Itachi raped Orochimaru at age 11 he wouldnt be standing there in that hallways so casually.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 5, 2012)

ZE said:
			
		

> Healthy Nagato with mobility problems used Animal Realm (raped by SM), Fat Pain (raped by SM) and Human Realm (raped by SM) in order to beat RM Naruto.



Yes, and when used by Nagato, they are drastically stronger than what SM Naruto fought against. There's no comparison to make concerning these.



> You think SM Naruto cannot tank a rock being thrown at him? Not sure about that. But I?m not here to force you my opinion. If you believe a big rock hurts more than giant summons taking you along with huge buildings, suit yourself.



SM Naruto was defeated by a BT combo. Pull him in, attack at same time. Nagato tried this against KCM Naruto (with a rock instead of absorbing), and it failed, prompting the statement that Naruto is now stronger than against Pain.

It was a direct comparison of the two fights and an indication that Naruto's new form is stronger.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It's just one of many unbelievable-sounding plans in this series. Pretty much everything Itachi planned falls into this category.



Nah, not really. Itachi is a genius so for him to do something so dumb just doesn't fit his whole aura. 



hitokugutsu said:


> No, Kisame was referring to Jiraya's repuation as "one of the Sannin"



Minus the fact that he was also talking about Jiraiya specifically. So it is still just about Jiraiya. It isn't like he would say "Jiraiya is one of the legendary Sannin, clearly he is good with snakes". It is about Jiraiya no matter how you slice it. 



> So now Kisame doesnt the know the extent of Jiraya's reputation? But the opposite doesnt apply right?



Huh?


In any case this is an irrelevant argument to my original point so I won't continue it.

The point isn't about Kisame vs Jiraiya. It is about there being no way to prove Itachi was lying (making such a claim false on any tards part) and that the situation doesn't make sense the way Itachi tards try to twist it.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

So Its the guys who argue Jiraya>Itachi and kisame with back up from akatsuki?

jiraya tards strike again.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> So Its the guys who argue Jiraya>Itachi and kisame with back up from akatsuki?



I could be wrong but I am not sure anyone is arguing that. Especially since it was never said in the manga.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:
			
		

> Nah, not really. Itachi is a genius so for him to do something so dumb just doesn't fit his whole aura.



It was not dumb of him to do that; it demonstrated an amazing genius for him to predict that would happen exactly as it did.

It being believable to anyone isn't necessary for it to be true. He also put Sasuke into a coma without possibly knowing if Tsunade would ever return to Konoha to heal him from it.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I could be wrong but I am not sure anyone is arguing that. Especially since it was never said in the manga.



Aren't you hanging on to Itachi's words that he and kisame could not beat jiraya.

Because otherwise what are you arguing?


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It was not dumb of him to do that; it demonstrated an amazing genius for him to predict that would happen exactly as it did.



Where did you get the idea he predicted everything that would happen? We were never given any such indication 


In any case it goes back to what I said and I don't wish to continue arguing it.

1. If Itachi tards want to claim Itachi was lying, prove it. Don't just say it is true because you want to believe in magic.

2. The situation doesn't make sense the way Itachi tards try and twist it to fit their beliefs. 


So I will just stand by my what we have been given in the manga until we see even 1 thing to point to an alternate scenario.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> Aren't you hanging on to Itachi's words that he and kisame could not beat jiraya.



Nope. Because he never said that. He said he could beat Jiraiya. It would just be a mutual outcome of beatings.

Again, I am standing by what was said in the manga. Not what you are incorrectly typing here.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Nope. Because he never said that. He said he could beat Jiraiya. It would just be a mutual outcome of beatings.
> .



No im pretty sure he said he could not take jiraya with back up and it would be a draw.

So you beileve Kisame with Itachi and back up would draw with jiraya?


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2012)

While we're at it, the manga doesn't say they are equals, regardless of what it says about the outcome of that hypothetical fight back in part I.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:
			
		

> Where did you get the idea he predicted everything that would happen? We were never given any such indication



It's an inference we're forced to make, because we know he had no intention of kidnapping a child from his beloved village to be killed to further Uchiha Madara's plans for world domination.

It's the same reason why he wasn't thrilled when Sasori seemed interested in capturing Naruto himself. It's clear he did not want Naruto to be captured.


> The situation doesn't make sense the way Itachi tards try and twist it to fit their beliefs.



Do we really do that much "twisting?" We're just suggesting that a double agent lied to protect his cause.

Meanwhile, you do some twisting yourself. 

It is not Itachi fan's intentions to believe one thing and then twist the rest of the manga around it; we don't _have_ to do that. He recently revealed a technique he implied was beyond his Mangekyou arsenal (Izanami), and seemed to babysit KCM Naruto against Nagato. We also saw him easily take care of Orochimaru. The twisting we do concerns that statement from part 1, and I don't think we're being that unreasonable about it.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> No im pretty sure he said he could not take jiraya with back up and it would be a draw.



He said:

"If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very lease, we'd hurt each other badly."

So yeah, he thinks he could kill Jiraiya. 



Nikushimi said:


> While we're at it, the manga doesn't say they are equals, regardless of what it says about the outcome of that hypothetical fight back in part I.



This is true. However, based off of the majority of fights for an outcome to be like that they would have to be fairly close in power. So the indication is strong they are close to equals. 

Again though, I have already said you can claim Itachi is strong all day long but it is irrelevant when talking about Jiraiya vs Itachi because Itachi already said Jiraiya could kill him. Regardless of who is stronger in your mind.


----------



## Federer (Aug 5, 2012)

Lol at people still bringing up part I statements.

Hiruzen, God of Shinobi, stronger than all Kage, knows all jutsu in Konoha, no? 

How is Jiraiya gonna win against a guy who can simply change his thought with Kotoamatsukami?


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> He said:
> 
> "If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very lease, we'd hurt each other badly."
> 
> ...



He said "even with back up the outcome would be the same"

So Itachi you think Itachi with help from more akatsuki members can only draw with jiraya?


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

Federer said:


> How is Jiraiya gonna win against a guy who can simply change his thought with Kotoamatsukami?



The same way anyone beats anyone else in the manga. Kishi gives them the proper moves as his plot requires.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> He said "even with back up the outcome would be the same"



Actually he said the outcome would "probably" not change. 



> So Itachi you think Itachi with help from more members can only draw with jiraya?



Hard to say. Probably depends on the members and how Kishi played the fight out. For example I don't believe people like Hidan or Konan would add anything to the fight based on how easily Jiraiya could beat them. 

We don't really know who Itachi is referring to.

Also, we are given the same thing in pt 2 when team Gai is told they would only get in the way if they interfered with Naruto vs Pain.

So yeah, it is clearly a point Kishi wants us to understand. High level fights can get to a point where other people aren't going to make a difference no matter how strong. 

They would either end up tripping up their own teammate or getting tripped up by their own teammate.


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 5, 2012)

I just wish Kishimoto would fucking say who is stronger between the two again and made it blatantly clear to avoid 10 years of this crap.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> I just wish Kishimoto would fucking say who is stronger between the two again and made it blatantly clear to avoid 10 years of this crap.



I think almost everyone on NF can agree with this


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

I think it was blatantly clear who is the second man in this manga and who served as a snack for Pain to show us just how badass he is.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> I just wish Kishimoto would fucking say who is stronger between the two again and made it blatantly clear to avoid 10 years of this crap.



I think its been mad painful clear who is stronger.

I mean Itachi was even revealed to be the second best lier in the manga and he lied were to protect others.

But there are those who continue you hold on to recanted part 1 statments instead of manga feats or hype.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> But there are those who continue you hold on to recanted part 1 statments instead of manga feats or hype.



Feats are ambiguous without mutual opponents to compare with, so that would be stupid to try and use those. Hype is just that. Hype. You could think something sounds a lot better than I do or vice versa.

Statements on the other hand, are fairly direct.

So of all the things we have seen the pt 1 statement holds the most weight, even now. Both of them have tons of hype and their feats can't be compared as neither have a had a full fight with the same opponent nor were they compared by a third party.

So yeah, there are those like you who grasp for whatever you can when you have no solid argument to actually make. Too bad bias runs so rampant on these forums :/


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Feats are ambiguous without mutual opponents to compare with, so that would be stupid to try and use those. Hype is just that. Hype. You could think something sounds a lot better than I do or vice versa.
> 
> Statements on the other hand, are fairly direct.
> 
> ...





KnightGhost said:


> .
> 
> But there are those who continue you hold on to recanted part 1 statments instead of manga feats or hype.






> there are those who continue to hold on to recanted part 1 statments



Ok! Cyphon!


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> I think its been mad painful clear who is stronger.
> 
> I mean Itachi was even revealed to be the second best lier in the manga and he lied were to protect others.



Yep should be mad painfully clear, even when the man himself tells us.

only taking back what was mine to begin with

Itachi himself tells us he is overestimated and a failure, but someway somehow Itachi fans keep thinking the complete opposite.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

Itachi and Jiraiya both view themselves as failures while everyone else hypes them up. Even more that makes them so much alike in their eveness


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yep should be mad painfully clear, even when the man himself tells us.
> 
> only taking back what was mine to begin with
> 
> Itachi himself tells us he is overestimated and a failure, but someway somehow Itachi fans keep thinking the complete opposite.



You forgot this.



KnightGhost said:


> But there are those who continue you hold on to recanted part 1 statments instead of manga feats or hype.






Cyphon said:


> Itachi and Jiraiya both view themselves as failures while everyone else hypes them up. Even more that makes them so much alike in their eveness



Itachi said he is most like kabuto.

FAIL POST.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> You forgot this.



I didn't forget it. It's never been recanted. I don't think you understand what the term means.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> FAIL POST.



And of course you have just been outstanding 

Bias fools smh.....


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> I didn't forget it. It's never been recanted. I don't think you understand what the term means.





KnightGhost said:


> But *there are those who continue to hold on* to recanted part 1 statments instead of manga feats or hype.






KnightGhost said:


> But *there are those who continue to hold on*



For dear life.



Cyphon said:


> And of course you have just been outstanding
> 
> Bias fools smh.....



Just stating fact. Jiraya and Itachi are nothing alike. a myth made up by jirayafans


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> For dear life.





Your grasp of language is failing you.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Your grasp of language is failing you.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmukW1sNlIk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

You really don't understand what "recant" means do you?

I mean anybody can say something was "recanted" and just post rubbish without backing it up. The fact of the matter is nothing was ever recanted, you just pulled that out of your ass and now that push has come to shove you find yourself at a loss to provide anything worthwhile so you'd rather circle jerk to your own fanboyism.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> You really don't understand what "recant" means do you?
> 
> I mean anybody can say something was "recanted" and just post rubbish without backing it up. The fact of the matter is nothing was ever recanted, you just pulled that out of your ass and now that push has come to shove you find yourself at a loss to provide anything worthwhile so you'd rather circle jerk to your own fanboyism.



Buthurt much? It was recanted Itachi lied end of story.


----------



## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

MS Itachi was clearly meant to be on the same level as SM Jiraiya. The parallels are obviously there for any person willing to read between the lines. For instance, Itachi was "sick" and Jiraiya was handicapped by his inability to master SM. Edo Itachi is not a valid comparison. Same thing with the databook; same thing with statements directly from Itachi himself, i.e. they would likely draw, etc.

Then we get into to the fact that MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were directly compared as equals shortly after both Itachi and Jiraiya died (on the same day no less). We also have the parallels of Naruto and Sasuke acquiring new power ups as a result of Itachi and Jiraiya's actions.  

The whole Kabuto versus Edo Itachi just clenched it for me. There we see a healthy Itachi (actually beyond healthy since he could not be killed via normal means with help) versus a lone enhanced SM user. It is heavily implied there that a perfect SM user would beat a perfect MS Itachi (with help) were it not for the one flaw that Kabuto had -- his arrogance and his inability to face his true self. That particular genjustu would not work on somebody with WoF like Jiraiya, so we can conclude that a perfect SM user with WoF would likely defeat MS Itachi -- that is, the same reason Hashirama defeated Madara. Will of fire was the trump card. 

At the end of the day, if you break it all down Itachi and Jiraiya are portrayed as equals and Itachi was probably correct in his statement that the two would either stalemate or end up killing each other, which btw were the exact words used to compare SM Naruto to MS Sasuke. Kishi is being so blatantly obvious with his parallels that it is surprising to me that anybody argues against these recurring themes. 

As far as Nagato with all Six Paths, he would rape Itachi and Jiraiya nine times out of ten. But this just confirms more parallels. Nagato contained an advanced eye technique above MS Sharingan but also had the body of a sage. He is a Rikudou whereas Itachi and Jiraiya just got the best of both halves of a Rikudou. In both fights, we see that Jiraiya and Itachi needed assistance from two other kage level shinobi just to survive. Keep in mind, that Jiraiya could have run away but chose not to. Same with edo Itachi, he needed assistance against zombie Nagato or otherwise he basically gets one-shotted. He also had no knowledge on Nagato's technique (just like Jiraiya) and without Naruto's prior knowledge he would have been sealed, just as Jiraiya was killed.

Same thing over and over, and nevermind the databook which gives them the exact same score.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> Buthurt much? It was recanted Itachi lied end of story.



That reading comprehension of yours isn't so good.

The lies Itachi told were specifically cited. Guess what wasn't cited? You guessed it, Jiraiya.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled fanboy circle jerk.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> That reading comprehension of yours isn't so good.
> 
> The lies Itachi told were specifically cited. Guess what wasn't cited? You guessed it, Jiraiya.
> 
> You can now return to your regularly scheduled fanboy circle jerk.



OK! FOR YOU



KnightGhost said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmukW1sNlIk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

KnightGhost said:


> OK! FOR YOU



I'm sorry that the facts disagree with your imagined version of the manga. Maybe you should look into fanfiction?


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sorry that the facts disagree with your imagined version of the manga. Maybe you should look into fanfiction?



Cause clearly your version were jiraya solos Itachi and kisame with back up is the correct one.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 5, 2012)

Itachi is above Jiraiya and orochimaru while both of them are on the same level.

I like oro and Jiraiya more then Itachi but for me this is painfully clear -_-. Itachi beats both Jiraiya and orochimaru with mid diffculty at best.


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2012)

We really need more Battledome regulars here.


----------



## αce (Aug 5, 2012)

Mods need to lock this.


I also just re-read Oro fight with Naruto. I'm fairly convinced he's above Jiraiya at his strongest (Hiruzen fight). Just my two cents. Don't bother wall o texting me.


----------



## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

Oro still has a chance to catch up to the other 2 since he is back now, but I doubt it. Itachi and Jiraiya are above him in the big scheme of things and I can see it remaining that way.

I think that has been made very clear. If you don't accept anything in the manga I think you should at least find it odd that only Jiraiya and Itachi stand alone at the top of the stat game in the DB.

IMO there is stronger evidence in the manga but the DB could work as well. 

Itachi and Jiraiya are roughly equal with Oro a little below either of them.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 5, 2012)

Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraya core fanbase (and anti-Itachi fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers

Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement. 

Of course pro-Itachi fans will argue Itachi >> Galactus. 
But even those who arent biased for the Uchiha or Jiraya already acknowledged Itachi's > Sannin after his true strength was revealed in Sasuke vs Itachi and his ET revival. Let the 3.2% of NF who believe Jiraya > Itachi be. Everybody gets to be happy and this thread can rest in piece


----------



## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Itachi is above Jiraiya and orochimaru while both of them are on the same level.
> 
> I like oro and Jiraiya more then Itachi but for me this is painfully clear -_-. Itachi beats both Jiraiya and orochimaru with mid diffculty at best.



Besides your opinion, what textual evidence can you cite within the manga that supports the conclusion that Itachi is above Jiraiya or vice versa. I can cite mountains of parallels, motifs, recurring themes, and extra-textual evidence that concludes SM = MS. In fact, I just did in a previous post in this thread. 

The only thing that leads one to believe that Itachi is above Jiraiya is the fact that Itachi did in fact "defeat" Orochimaru. However, we never actually saw Orochimaru fight all out against Jiraiya or Itachi, so that doesn't seem like much evidence. All we got is a flashback and a Sannin battle in which at the end of the day Orochimaru gets beat up by Tsunade. But now we see that Orochimaru was never actually dead or even sealed as we thought, but he is now walking around alive and well. If anything, it leads one to believe that there is no way Itachi could ever kill Orochimaru and this undermines that entire argument.


----------



## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraya core fanbase (and anti-Itachi fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers
> 
> Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement.
> 
> ...



That poll of Jiraiya versus Itachi has been done many times here and usually Itachi loses. Just sayin...  If you say edo-Itachi > Jiraiya, then I would vote Itachi. But real life Itachi? Yea... you know the rest.


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement.



Because the stuff wouldn't be "new". It would be new to us as readers but stuff Itachi has always had in his arsenal. A perfect example would be Susanoo. We know he had it in pt 1 but we never saw it. Same as Jiraiya and Sennin Mode. So "new" moves don't change anything unless we learn that they are truly new to the character or that they are stated to make them stronger than we were previously told.



> But even those who arent biased for the Uchiha or Jiraya already acknowledged Itachi's > Sannin



Eh, not really. Truth be told hardly anyone who isn't a fan of either even cares about this battle. So 99% of the opinions you are seeing are a fan of one side of the other. 



> after his true strength was revealed in Sasuke vs Itachi and his ET revival.



In Sasuke vs Itachi his true strength wasn't revealed because we learned he was holding back. So he was weaker in some form than he would be.

In ET it isn't his true power because he is immortal, has infinite chakra and there is no risk of blindness for him. So he is stronger in ET than he normally would be.

So try again 



The Fool said:


> That poll of Jiraiya versus Itachi has been done many times here and usually Itachi loses.



Actually that isn't the case.

Itachi has more fans than Jiraiya so typically he wins those polls.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraya core fanbase (and anti-Itachi fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers
> 
> Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement.
> 
> ...




Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraiya Itachi core fanbase (and anti-ItachiSannin fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Itachi lied Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers hitokugutsu, Nikushimi, Strategos, and some other fillers

Itachi Jiraiya could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement Itachi lied. 

Of course pro-Itachi fans will argue Itachi >> Galactus. 
But even those who arent biased for the Uchiha or Jiraya already acknowledged Itachi's > Sannin Itachi = Sannin after his true strength was revealed in Sasuke vs Itachi and his ET revival. Let the 3.2% of NF who believe Jiraya > Itachi Itachi > Jiriaya be. Everybody gets to be happy and this thread can rest in piece

See how that works


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## αce (Aug 5, 2012)

> Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum.  After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraya  core fanbase (and anti-Itachi fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some oher fillers
> 
> Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement.
> 
> ...


This, this and this.

We've ignored so many other statements this manga has dished out (and statements _have_ been proven wrong on occasion), I can't comprehend why this one statement has stuck around. Unless of course, it's just fans clinging on to a statement they know is the only thing keeping him in Itachi's ballpark.

Itachi was lying. I stand by it until the end. There was no reason for him to fight, especially after he was unwilling to harm Gai and unwilling to kill Kakashi, Kurenai and Asuma. You'd think this statement would get dropped the moment it was revealed that Itachi was in fact a good person. Kisame was not lying, but that's pointless anyways since even Zetsu didn't know of Susano-o until he busted it out until the last moment. 

And the contradictions are amazing. Jiraiya fans will attempt to keep a sense of integrity and claim that Jiraiya is near or equal to Itachi in terms of level. Yet they argue against the notion that Itachi was lying when he said that him and Kisame would have a tough time against Jiraiya alone.

It's either one or the other, not both. Pick a position. Either he's equal to Itachi alone, and that statement is false. Or he's above both of them by such a significant margin that both of them would have a tough time against him.



ANYWAYS I'M OUT OF HERE.


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> *We've* ignored so many other statements this manga has dished out (and statements _have_ been proven wrong on occasion), I can't comprehend why this one statement has stuck around.



Key word. As in Uchiha/Itachi fans. They tend to ignore things that don't sit well with their fanfic ideas. Which is why they say dumb things so often.

Unfortunately for you and them this is a Naruto site based on the actual manga, not a fanfic. So your points mainly just keep falling apart almost as soon as you make them.



> ANYWAYS I'M OUT OF HERE.



Bye.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> I just wish Kishimoto would fucking say who is stronger between the two again and made it blatantly clear to avoid 10 years of this crap.



Kishi had Itachi state that they would most likely draw, yet Itachi-fans made up a fantasy scenario to justify why Itachi was lying. So even if Kishi had someone state Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly around the same level in the manga again, it would not change anything, other than there would be two fantasy scenario's instead of 1.


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## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraya core fanbase (and anti-Itachi fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers
> 
> *Itachi could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement.*
> 
> ...




Agreed its pretty sad but you always going to have that low% of any forum that wants to disagree with common sense.

And technically the bolded already happend too.Seeing it again would be insane but probably would not change anything.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 5, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Actually it doesnt matter much for the general consensus of this forum. After reading a lot of post I noticed its just the "die-hard" Jiraiya Itachi core fanbase (and anti-ItachiSannin fans ) who keep brining out that part I statement Itachi lied Vice, Cyphon, UltimateDeadpool, Turrin, ShinAkuma and some other fillers hitokugutsu, Nikushimi, Strategos, and some other fillers
> 
> Itachi Jiraiya could come back from the dead an show new stuff and haxx and still they would bring out that statement Itachi lied.
> 
> ...




Except my version had less bias 



Turrin said:


> Kishi had Itachi state that they would most likely draw, yet Itachi-fans made up a fantasy scenario to justify why Itachi was lying. So even if Kishi had someone state Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly around the same level in the manga again, it would not change anything, other than there would be two fantasy scenario's instead of 1.



Anyway, Itachi stated *that even with Kisame and back-up at best he would draw with Jiraya*

I'm not seeing how this statement makes Jiraya = Itachi

This statement only has 2 options

1) Jiraya is a fucking beast for taking on Itachi + Kisame, and *at best* the Akatsuki duo would draw with him. Basically this means Itachi alone would most likely lose to Jiraya. 

2) Or maybe.....just maybe Itachi lied to avoid a confrontation with Jiraya


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Mods need to lock this.
> 
> 
> I also just re-read Oro fight with Naruto. I'm fairly convinced he's above Jiraiya at his strongest (Hiruzen fight). Just my two cents. Don't bother wall o texting me.



He's also above Itachi with the 1st and 2nd hokages as his edo.


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## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Except my version had less bias
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kisame pretty much admitted that he would not have a chance of defeating Jiraiya, so yea... He agrees with Itachi.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> He's also above Itachi with the 1st and 2nd hokages as his edo.



Not when the controller is Orochimaru who likes to toy with his opponent.

Orochimaru is an arrogant fool while Jiraiya still thinks his a kid. This is their in character flow that must be taken into account when analyzing their placement in the manga. 

In character Jiraiya (Not the fan made one.) is a guy who poses around before any fight, he did this against Nagato, the one with the legendary Rinnegan. 

This of course isn't smart thing to do if your opponent is Itachi who makes every second count and he has can one hit KO move that can hit you in a blink of an eye.


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## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Kishi had Itachi state that they would most likely draw, yet Itachi-fans made up a fantasy scenario to justify why Itachi was lying. So even if Kishi had someone state Jiraiya and Itachi are roughly around the same level in the manga again, it would not change anything, other than there would be two fantasy scenario's instead of 1.




The funny thing is that this was part one pre-retcon Itachi that killed his family, ordered the death of Kurenai and Asuma, and put Sasuke and Kakashi into a death coma that only Tsunade could heal -- a character that had not even been introduced yet and as far as we know Itachi did not even know existed, lol. Even part two Itachi was ruthless the first 100 chapters. He used a shouten clone (basically requires a human sacrifice) to fight team Kakashi.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Except my version had less bias


Seriously!? You try to play it off like most of the forum agrees Itachi > Jiriaya, when in reality whenever the forum is polled it ends up being close with many polls going to Itachi and many going to Jiriaya. Usually with whoever it goes to being the one who was most recently hyped in the manga. The forum is split and that is why it's the most heavily debated match up/tier rankings in the history of the forum. 

People who say Itachi would win easily bring up their fanfic about Itachi lying or  downright false claim of Itachi referring to the 9-tails Jinchuuriki, just as much as people who say Jiraiya is equal to Itachi bring up Itachi's and Kisame's statements, because it is an important issue for both sides of the debate to argue their view point effectively. 

With the coming back from the dead comment I was switched it around just to purely make fun of the point, because in reality it's just total BS to say Itachi could show new shit and it wouldn't change peoples beliefs, because it 100% depends on what Itachi actually shows and the same applies to Jiraiya. People didn't think what Itachi showed when he came back as an Edo changed anything, but why should they? The Most powerful new jutsu Itachi showed (Izanami) won't work on Jiriaya and pretty much Kishi just showed Itachi struggling, even with help, against a SM user who used powerful sound based senjutsu attacks. Why you expected this portrayal to change anyone who believed a Senjutsu user with powerful sound based Senjutsu attacks could beat Itachi opinion to said Senjutsu user can't win, is beyond my comprehension.



> Anyway, Itachi stated that even with Kisame and back-up at best he would draw with Jiraya


There are more than 2 options for the statement. Let's not forget that we have seen Gai + back up  (Neiji, Lee, Tenten, & all the other Konoha shinobi) told to not help Naruto against Pain because they would only get in a Senjutsu users way. The Same Gai who was portrayed as Kisame's main adversary in the manga. In essence the statement's are no different. 

So the more reasonable options are ether

1. Kishimoto really would make shinobi like Gai + Backup or Kisame + Back up complete ineffectual in a Senjutsu users battle, probably through PNJ BS.

2. Kisame + Back Up and Gai + Back Up were underestimated when these statements were made. Itachi admits to underestimating his companions so that's not that big of a stretch and he accuses Naruto of doing the same thing so again not that big of a stretch that Naruto & Katsuya via proxy were underestimating his companions.

I prefer ether of these over a total fanfic, which in all honesty makes little to no sense.


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## King Scoop (Aug 5, 2012)

Itachi didn't want to fight anyone from Konoha. Jiraiya was a legend and Kisame was nervous. Itachi used that to his advantage. If he had fought and defeated Jiraiya then what would he do? Itachi had no reason to fight Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Not when the controller is Orochimaru who likes to toy with his opponent.



Such a drawback exists against all opponents. With that logic one could conclude Oro wouldn't beat any high tier ninjas.

The fact of the matter is Oro is *more powerful* than Itachi or Jiraiya with the 1st and 2nd hokages as his edos.



> In character Jiraiya (Not the fan made one.) is a guy who poses around before any fight, he did this against Nagato, the one with the legendary Rinnegan.



Itachi turns his back on his opponents.

didn't believe

Let me guess, Jiraiya is a fool for posing against an enemy but Itachi is super duper awesome for turning his back.



> This of course isn't smart thing to do if your opponent is Itachi who makes every second count and he has can one hit KO move that can hit you in a blink of an eye.



Who your opponent is would have nothing to do with how a ninja approaches a fight.....

Besides Jiraiya gave Itachi and Kisame his little intro and nothing happened.

didn't believe


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

King Scoop said:


> Itachi didn't want to fight anyone from Konoha.



Weird then that he showed up and fought Kurenai, Asuma and Kakashi. Even demanding that Kisame kill Kakashi 



> Jiraiya was a legend and Kisame was nervous. Itachi used that to his advantage.



He did?

Seems to me like instead of playing to the hype he found a way so he and Kisame could approach Naruto. 


Look, you may be right. It just isn't likely given that Itachi is a genius. What you are saying makes him look extremely stupid and irresponsible. Not the same character Kishi has tried to portray IMO.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> Such a drawback exists against all opponents. With that logic *one could conclude Oro wouldn't beat any high tier ninjas*.



Nope as he beat Hiruzen. 


> The fact of the matter is Oro is *more powerful* than Itachi or Jiraiya with the 1st and 2nd hokages as his edos.



Nope, with his arrogance, he could get blitzed in mid-sentence. 



> Itachi turns his back on his opponents.
> 
> didn't believe



1. He doesn't see Jiraiya as a threat, which is why he used a taxing jutsu on Sasuke in Jiraiya's presence. The man who he hyped to equal both himself and Kisame. 
2. Itachi never planned to fight Jiraiya as he is a good guy.



> Let me guess, Jiraiya is a fool for posing against an enemy but Itachi is super duper awesome for turning his back.



Read above, Jiraiya was never Itachi's enemy. Remember he was a good guy.



> Who your opponent is would have nothing to do with how a ninja approaches a fight.....
> 
> Besides Jiraiya gave Itachi and Kisame his little intro and nothing happened.
> 
> didn't believe



Read above, your not taking into account that Itachi was a good guy. Unless you acknowledge his true allegiance in your post, you can never see Itachi beating Jiraiya, therefore your mind will always be trapped in part 1 *forever* and you will never enjoy the manga.


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## King Scoop (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Weird then that he showed up and fought Kurenai, Asuma and Kakashi. Even demanding that Kisame kill Kakashi




Itachi told them he didn't want to fight, but they forced his hand. Same thing with Kakashi, he ran his mouth so he had to die in order for Itachi to keep his cover. 




Cyphon said:


> He did?
> 
> Seems to me like instead of playing to the hype he found a way so he and Kisame could approach Naruto.
> 
> ...



Again it's all about not blowing his cover. I actually think he wanted Jiraiya to figure out the girl was under Genjutsu. He didn't want to capture Naruto, but that was excuse for going to Konoha so he had to put up some type of effort,


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## Kdol (Aug 5, 2012)

Jman died fighting Nagato. Itachi one shotted him. Canon


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

King Scoop said:


> Itachi told them he didn't want to fight, but they forced his hand. Same thing with Kakashi, he ran his mouth so he had to die in order for Itachi to keep his cover.



They didn't force his hand. He chose to show up there and he chose not to flee or attempt to flee sooner. 



> Again it's all about not blowing his cover.



That would be true if there was anything that could have blown his cover. Kisame had already agreed with everything he said so he could have just ran with that and left. Instead he chose to remove Jiraiya so that they could safely approach.

So again, it is either Kishi didn't have it figured out at the time that he wanted him as a good guy or Itachi is retarded. Itachi being consistently portrayed as a genius makes me think it is the former rather than the latter. Although I suppose even geniuses can do very dumb things. 

In any case there is no proof of a lie. 



Kdol said:


> Jman died fighting Nagato. Itachi one shotted him. Canon



1. Jiraiya died fighting Pain, not Nagato. 2 very different fights with very different circumstances.

2. Itachi didn't 1 shot Nagato. He hit him with Amaterasu and later Susanoo before hitting him a third time with Susanoo later on. 

1 shot means just that, 1 shot. It took more than that...for those who fail miserably at basic math


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## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

Kdol said:


> Jman died fighting Nagato. Itachi one shotted him. Canon



Jman was fighting a jutsu of Nagato, not Nagato himself. Itachi was already dead when he fought zombie Nagato, but he still would have lost without help. 

Basically, edo-Itachi fought a version of Nagato without his best jutsu, without free will, without the mobility of the Pain paths, and Itachi had two of the strongest characters in the manga aiding him that also had prior knowledge.

Put another way, do you honestly think Itachi escapes Chibaku Tensei without Bee and Naruto?


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## ZE (Aug 5, 2012)

Kdol said:


> Jman died fighting Nagato. Itachi one shotted him. Canon



Nagato admitted inferiority to Jiraiya alone. Itachi needed Naruto and Bee’s help to beat Nagato. Canon

Even if Itachi had one-shotted Nagato as you say, which didn’t happen, he would’ve had one-shotted someone inferior to Jiraiya. So try again.

Edit: this is all taking at face value what the manga tells us.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2012)

ZE said:


> Nagato admitted inferiority to Jiraiya alone. Itachi needed Naruto and Bee?s help to beat Nagato. Canon



Fan made canon. 



> Even if Itachi had one-shotted Nagato as you say, which didn?t happen, he would?ve had one-shotted someone inferior to Jiraiya. So try again.
> 
> Edit: this is all taking at face value what the manga tells us.



Nagato beats Jiraiya even if Jiraiya had all the knowledge in the world.


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## ZE (Aug 5, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Fan made canon.


How is it fan made when it is in the manga? 

Itachi needed Bee and Naruto - it happened in the manga, so it is canon
Nagato didn't fancy his chances if Jiraiya found him - it was stated, so it is canon



> Nagato beats Jiraiya even if Jiraiya had all the knowledge in the world.



Nagato knows it better than you.


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## Cyphon (Aug 5, 2012)

ZE there is no point. I have had him on ignore for like 2 years. One of the worst and most biased posters ever on NF. 

In any case yeah, Nagato admitted Jiraiya could beat him with the secret. Itachi needed some info + Naruto and Bee.


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## The Fool (Aug 5, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Nagato beats Jiraiya even if Jiraiya had all the knowledge in the world.



I agree... with NO knowledge Nagato would have six paths. Just like Nagato would have six paths against Itachi in a real fight and would defeat Itachi just as easily. There is nothing to suggest Itachi would fair any better against six paths. The only thing we've seen is that Itachi with help from two of the strongest characters in the story can defeat one jutsu of Nagato's, which arguably is not even Nagato's strongest jutsu btw since we know he can summon Gedo Mezo.  He would probably take down two or three, but at the end of the day Itachi would lose just like Jiraiya did against Pain and the rest of the realms.


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## Sareth (Aug 5, 2012)

OP is an Itachi hater and a Jiraiya tard. Worthless and stupid thread. Neg + one star, biatch.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2012)

ZE said:


> How is it fan made when it is in the manga?
> 
> Itachi needed Bee and Naruto - it happened in the manga, so it is canon
> Nagato didn't fancy his chances if Jiraiya found him - it was stated, so it is canon
> ...



Killer Bee and Naruto were not there because Itachi needed them. They were there because Itachi saved them. Without Itachi they both would be dead. 

Itachi *used *them, there was no manga indication that he needed them to defeat Nagato. When he did all the work except one where he *used* them. 

Hype needs to be matched by feats, the Nagato that beat Killer Bee and RM Naruto will own Jiraiya. Just saying.


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## ZE (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> ZE there is no point. I have had him on ignore for like 2 years. One of the worst and most biased posters ever on NF.
> 
> In any case yeah, Nagato admitted Jiraiya could beat him with the secret. Itachi needed some info + Naruto and Bee.



The point of my post is that bringing Nagato into this won't help either side. 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Killer Bee and Naruto were not there because Itachi needed them. They were there because Itachi saved them. Without Itachi they both would be dead.


It doesn’t matter. Itachi was shown needing Bee and Naruto. It’s canon. You just can’t erase something that happened. Sorry. 



> Itachi *used *them, there was no manga indication that he needed them to defeat Nagato. When he did all the work except one where he *used* them.


Again, I’ll repeat myself: 
It doesn’t matter. Itachi was shown needing Bee and Naruto. It’s canon. You just can’t erase something that happened. Sorry. 



> Hype needs to be matched by feats, the Nagato that beat Killer Bee and RM Naruto will own Jiraiya. Just saying.


Nagato mentioned that Jiraiya being capable of beating him was the biggest praise he could give his master. If the Nagato that admitted inferiority to Jiraiya was any weaker than the Nagato that appeared later, then beating him wouldn’t be that praise worthy, would it? 

In other words, Nagato himself knew he was strong. After all, he had the ability to summon Gedo Mazo with the power of seven bijuus powering him up, something he lacked when he returned as an edo. Yet, Jiraiya was strong enough to beat him. That's all you need to know.


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## JPongo (Aug 5, 2012)

Oro has trolled Itachi while Itachi was alive and also when he was dead.

Jiraiya > Oro > Itachi.

Not so much a clusterfuck now is it?


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 5, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Nope as he beat Hiruzen.



He did?

Seemed to me like they both lost that fight.



> Nope, with his arrogance, he could get blitzed in mid-sentence.



Not relevant when discussing power levels.



> 1. He doesn't see Jiraiya as a threat, which is why he used a taxing jutsu on Sasuke in Jiraiya's presence. The man who he hyped to equal both himself and Kisame.



Jiraiya didn't see Nagato as a threat, at least not threatening enough to not pose. Nor did Jiraiya see Kisame and Itachi as a threat, because he posed on them.



> 2. Itachi never planned to fight Jiraiya as he is a good guy.



Just like he never planned to fight Kakashi,Kurenai and Asuma?

Oh wait....



> Read above, Jiraiya was never Itachi's enemy. Remember he was a good guy.



Yes, so good he beat the shit out of Kakashi and told Kisame to chop off Naruto's legs.



> Read above, your not taking into account that Itachi was a good guy.



I did take that into account but through his own actions his good guy status did not stop him from doing bad guy stuff, so the logic that he wouldn't fight when he has shown he will is incorrect.



> Unless you acknowledge his true allegiance in your post, you can never see Itachi beating Jiraiya, therefore your mind will always be trapped in part 1 *forever* and you will never enjoy the manga.



I enjoy the manga just fine as my enjoyment doesn't hinge on the status of characters long dead.


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## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2012)

Where are the mod why aren't they locking this moster thread already?

The jiraya fans have lost


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## L. Messi [✔] (Aug 5, 2012)

Cyphon I'm gonna let you read this once again and I'm willing to respond only if you don't quote the parts you want to answer rather than answering everything :



Cyphon said:


> So lets look at the situation.....
> 
> 
> Kisame and Itachi are having a chat and Kisame is hyping up Jiraiya and saying how strong he is.



Stopped reading there.

Kisame wasn't talking about Jiraiya; he was talking about _Jiraiya's reputation_, the same reputation Itachi shat at when he was eleven. 

Kisame doesn't even know Jiraiya or his powers, he judged him by his reputation, saying that the Uchiha and Seven Sword thingy pales in comparison.

Seriously, when Orochimaru admits that Itachi is by far stronger than him (he's also proven it twice), you people deny it, trying to find every loophole but when Itachi, a known lair, says *him plus Kisame and Akatsuki backup < Jiraiya*, it's true  hypocrisy at its finest. That shit is beyond retarded.

Itachi is at least two tiers above the Sannin.


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## HakuGaara (Aug 5, 2012)

I think the Itachi camp needs to comply that the 'Jiraiya and Itachi are both good guys' reasoning needs to be let go. 

Itachi had no problem doing the following:

- killing his own parents
- Mind fucking his little brother to the point of making him a sociopath
- Putting Kakashi out of commission
- Ordering Kisame to take out Asuma and Kurenai
- Letting Kisame chop off Naruto's legs

Now, considering this, Itachi should have *no* problems engaging Jiraiya in battle, especially since it's 2 to 1 and Itachi alone is supposedly strong enough to do the job (something the Itachi camp has yet to provide any concrete evidence for).

However, this is not what happened. When they find Naruto, do they pursue him right away like all the other jinchuuriki? No, they are seen sitting high up watching him. Why? Because Jiraiya is with him. Kisame and Kakashi both shared the same opinion - that they shouldn't go after Naruto because Jiraiya is there. Does Itachi disagree with them? No. He agrees by saying they would have to exploit a weakness (rather than brute force). They are then shown doing just that by hypnotizing the woman to distract Jiraiya in the hopes of avoiding a confrontation altogether. And they did this *despite* the fact that they knew it wouldn't likely work (as stated by Kisame).

On the other hand, Jiraiya, who had been spying on Akatsuki for some time and most likely holds at least some knowledge of it's members, said this when confronted with Itachi and Kisame - "Oh well, I guess I'll take care of you two here" and says it with the utmost confidence. Jiraiya might be a flashy/showy man but he's never been portrayed as an arrogant man when it comes to fighting prowess, so for him to say something like this speaks volumes.

So yes, please stop with the 'Jiraiya and Itachi are both good so Itachi didn't want to hurt him' garbage. That's almost as bad as the 'Itachi owned Oro but he ""let"" him live' idiocy.


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## Bloo (Aug 6, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> I think the Itachi camp needs to comply that the 'Jiraiya and Itachi are both good guys' reasoning needs to be let go.


I think you need to notice the mountain of other reasonings as well.


> Itachi had no problem doing the following:
> - killing his own parents


Because they were wanting to destroy Konoha. *Epic* fail on your part.


> - Mind fucking his little brother to the point of making him a sociopath


To make him stronger and make him seem evil, and Sasuke (and apparently you) bought it.


> - Putting Kakashi out of commission


Without killing him.


> - Ordering Kisame to take out Asuma and Kurenai


I'll give you that, but it is debatable that Itachi knew Gai was about to counter.


> - Letting Kisame chop of Naruto's legs


A second after Kisame suggested the act, Sasuke interrupted. We don't know if Itachi would stop it before Kisame did it, making it a moot point.


> Now, considering this, Itachi should have *no* problems engaging Jiraiya in battle, especially since it's 2 to 1 and Itachi alone is supposedly strong enough to do the job (something the Itachi camp has yet to provide any concrete evidence for).


Itachi doesn't like fighting in general, that's his personality. He only does it when he has to. He even tried to stop Kurenai and Asuma from fighting them. "You don't want to interfere with me. It isn't my desire to kill you." So him not wanting to fight proves anything but him being weaker than Jiraiya. It just meant he didn't want to fight cause he didn't have to. And Itachi beating a Sannin 6 years prior, and him turning his back on Jiraiya proves he wasn't worried.


> However, this is not what happened. When they find Naruto, do they pursue him right away like all the other jinchuuriki? No, they are seen sitting high up watching him. Why? Because Jiraiya is with him. Kisame and Kakashi both shared the same opinion - that they shouldn't go after Naruto because Jiraiya is there. Does Itachi disagree with them? No. He agrees by saying they would have to exploit a weakness (rather than brute force). They are then shown doing just that by hypnotizing the woman to distract Jiraiya in the hopes of avoiding a confrontation altogether. And they did this *despite* the fact that they knew it wouldn't likely work (as stated by Kisame).


I'm not repeating what non-Jiraiya fans have been saying for 35 pages.


> On the other hand, Jiraiya, who had been spying on Akatsuki for some time and most likely holds at least some knowledge of it's members, said this when confronted with Itachi and Kisame - "Oh well, I guess I'll take care of you two here" and says it with the utmost confidence.


The same confidence he had in Itachi losing to Sasuke, while having enough knowledge on Itachi to not know shit about Amaterasu prior and most likely not even Susano'o.


> Jiraiya might be a flashy/showy man but he's never been portrayed as an arrogant man when it comes to fighting prowess, so for him to say something like this speaks volumes.


You're right, he's not arrogant, he's very honest. So when after Itachi leaves and he says Itachi's distance was the *only* thing keeping him from kidnapping Naruto, I tend to believe his honest word over Itachi's dishonest word.


> So yes, please stop with the 'Jiraiya and Itachi are both good so Itachi didn't want to hurt him' garbage. That's almost as bad as the 'Itachi owned Oro but he ""let"" him live' idiocy.


Please stop with the proven-wrong Part I bullshit. And Itachi one-panelling Orochmaru twice is as close to "owning" as it gets. Get over it.


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## Gilgamesh (Aug 6, 2012)

So wants to bet this thread reaches 1000 posts?


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Aug 6, 2012)

Gilgamesh said:


> So wants to bet this thread reaches 1000 posts?



Me

.......


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 6, 2012)

Bloo said:


> You're right, he's not arrogant, he's very honest. So when after Itachi leaves and he says Itachi's distance was the *only* thing keeping him from kidnapping Naruto, I tend to believe his honest word over Itachi's dishonest word.



I'll never understand why people think they can just straight up bullshit their way through debates, as if nobody would ever notice.

Naruto was going to leave Jiraiya and go after Itachi on his own. Plus who forced Itachi to create that distance? Yeah Jiraiya. So stop trying to pass it off as if the only thing in the world stopping Itachi was his morning jog.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2012)

Seph said:


> I think the people here are simply incapable of understanding that, as a protector of the village, Itachi did not want to kill Konoha's strongest shinobi, so he gave Kisame an excuse to flee.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you can't understand this incredibly basic point, you should reread the manga on Itachi's intentions.


 
He had no qualms about putting Kakashi into a coma, though.


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## Canute87 (Aug 6, 2012)

Well seeing how bad Susano fucked him up, Itachi could have been right.


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## Bloo (Aug 6, 2012)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'll never understand why people think they can just straight up bullshit their way through debates, as if nobody would ever notice.
> 
> Naruto was going to leave Jiraiya and go after Itachi on his own. Plus who forced Itachi to create that distance? Yeah Jiraiya. So stop trying to pass it off as if the only thing in the world stopping Itachi was his morning jog.


Sasuke created the distance after getting kicked across the room, and left unable to move so Itachi had to move to him.

The main point of that quote is that Jiraiya recognized Itachi as more than capable of kidnapping Naruto. I brought that up because the post I was responding to the statement that Jiraiya stating he could beat Itachi and Kisame in one shot proves Jiraiya>Itachi (which is doesn't).

Look at the context of my statements before trying to counter.


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## jimbob631 (Aug 6, 2012)

Jiraiya and Itachi fans are both super hypocritical.  There are two statements which indicate their power levels relative to each other.  The part 1 statement is claimed to be Itachi lying by his fans, while Naruto stating he couldn't beat Sasuke is claimed to be a lie by Jiraiya/Naruto fans.  People selectively read for their favorite characters.


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## Bloo (Aug 6, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Jiraiya and Itachi fans are both super hypocritical.  There are two statements which indicate their power levels relative to each other.  The part 1 statement is claimed to be Itachi lying by his fans, while Naruto stating he couldn't beat Sasuke is claimed to be a lie by Jiraiya/Naruto fans.  People selectively read for their favorite characters.


Problem: Feats place Itachi higher, and Itachi is a known liar, and had tons of motives to lie.


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## hmph (Aug 6, 2012)

> Jiraiya and Itachi fans are both super hypocritical. There are two statements which indicate their power levels relative to each other. The part 1 statement is claimed to be Itachi lying by his fans, while Naruto stating he couldn't beat Sasuke is claimed to be a lie by Jiraiya/Naruto fans. People selectively read for their favorite characters.



Its really a matter of taking the context of every statement into account, and take them with some salt. Anyways, the statement from Itachi is, imo, best used to troll the tards that make claims like thinking Itachi is on par with Nagato or Minato. But anyways, Naruto's statement was, IIRC, a lie given to his fellow rookies to keep them out of it. It was given much more emphasis that they were equals, or that they would "die if they fought each other." Which technically doesn't discount the idea that Naruto could not defeat Sasuke, either.



> Problem: Feats place Itachi higher



I do not agree with you. Portrayal, perhaps, Itachi is given an aura of untouchability or control in his fights, but feats? No.


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## HakuGaara (Aug 6, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Because they were wanting to destroy Konoha. *Epic* fail on your part.
> 
> To make him stronger and make him seem evil, and Sasuke (and apparently you) bought it.



The *point* is that Itachi is not afraid of getting his hands dirty in order to get the job done. If he needed to off Jiraiya in order to keep his bad guy image up then he would have done so. There was simply no reason to let Jiraiya go other than it was beneficial to avoid a direct confrontation. 



Bloo said:


> Without killing him.



Of course not, he was interrupted by Gai.



Bloo said:


> I'll give you that, but it is debatable that Itachi knew Gai was about to counter.



There is no evidence that Itachi knew Gai was coming. If that was the case, then Kisame wouldn't have been blindsided as he would have known Gai was coming too.



Bloo said:


> A second after Kisame suggested the act, Sasuke interrupted. We don't know if Itachi would stop it before Kisame did it, making it a moot point.



*Wrong*. Kisame actually waited for Itachi to respond and Itachi never did so he was going to go ahead but then Jiraiya showed up.  Sasuke didn't even enter the picture until after all this.



Bloo said:


> Itachi doesn't like fighting in general, that's his personality. He only does it when he has to.



And he HAD to fight Jiraiya because he was ordered to take Naruto.



Bloo said:


> He even tried to stop Kurenai and Asuma from fighting them. "You don't want to interfere with me. It isn't my desire to kill you."



Yet he told Kisame to go ahead and kill them.



Bloo said:


> And Itachi beating a Sannin 6 years prior, and him turning his back on Jiraiya proves he wasn't worried.



I wouldn't say that preventing his body from being taken over is the same thing as 'beating a Sannin' 

and Itachi turned his back on Jiraiya because Kisame was keeping him occupied.



Bloo said:


> I'm not repeating what non-Jiraiya fans have been saying for 35 pages.



Well you need to say *something* if you want to win this debate because so far you're not doing so hot.



Bloo said:


> The same confidence he had in Itachi losing to Sasuke,



Jiraiya never expressed such a thing. Him letting Sasuke fight was a matter of honer, not confidence.



Bloo said:


> while having enough knowledge on Itachi to not know shit about Amaterasu prior and most likely not even Susano'o.



So? I'm sure Itachi didn't know about Swamp of the Underworld and Sage Mode. What's your point?



Bloo said:


> You're right, he's not arrogant, he's very honest. So when after Itachi leaves and he says Itachi's distance was the *only* thing keeping him from kidnapping Naruto, I tend to believe his honest word over Itachi's dishonest word.



He's referring to Itachi capturing Naruto if Naruto came after them on his own. The reason why the distance is there is because Jiraiya forced *both* of them to flee.



Bloo said:


> Please stop with the proven-wrong Part I bullshit.



It's not bullshit just because you don't like it. If you can't handle the *facts*, then read a different manga.



Bloo said:


> And Itachi one-panelling Orochmaru twice is as close to "owning" as it gets. Get over it.



You seem to have a very broad definition of 'one-paneling'. And I wouldn't call *stalling* the same thing as 'owning'.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Jiraiya and Itachi fans are both super hypocritical.  There are two statements which indicate their power levels relative to each other.  The part 1 statement is claimed to be Itachi lying by his fans, while Naruto stating he couldn't beat Sasuke is claimed to be a lie by Jiraiya/Naruto fans.  People selectively read for their favorite characters.



Itachi, unlike Naruto, is stated to have been a liar, Leaf sympathizer, and to have had an ulterior agenda at that time. So those two rejections aren't equivocable. At all.​


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## jimbob631 (Aug 6, 2012)

Let me start off by saying I believe Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya.  If I was going to rank the characters we're talking about it would be:

Itachi>MS Sasuke>SM Naruto> SM Jiraiya=Orochimaru

At the same time I think these characters are all in the same tier.  




Bloo said:


> Problem: Feats place Itachi higher, and Itachi is a known liar, and had tons of motives to lie.



I agree that feats place Itachi higher, Naruto had a motive to lie though which was commented on by Sakura. 



hmph said:


> Its really a matter of taking the context of every statement into account, and take them with some salt. Anyways, the statement from Itachi is, imo, best used to troll the tards that make claims like thinking Itachi is on par with Nagato or Minato. But anyways, Naruto's statement was, IIRC, a lie given to his fellow rookies to keep them out of it. It was given much more emphasis that they were equals, or that they would "die if they fought each other." Which technically doesn't discount the idea that Naruto could not defeat Sasuke, either.



You could argue Itachi had even more of a reason to lie in that situation and was commented as someone who never told the truth.  





Strategoob said:


> Itachi, unlike Naruto, is stated to have been a liar, Leaf sympathizer, and to have had an ulterior agenda at that time. So those two rejections aren't equivocable. At all.​



It was indicated Naruto wasn't telling the truth.  Like I said above I think Itachi's statements is far more dubious, its just something to think about.


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## Bloo (Aug 6, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> The *point* is that Itachi is not afraid of getting his hands dirty in order to get the job done. If he needed to off Jiraiya in order to keep his bad guy image up then he would have done so. There was simply no reason to let Jiraiya go other than it was beneficial to avoid a direct confrontation.


He maintained his bad guy image while sparring Kakashi.


> Of course not, he was interrupted by Gai.


When did Gai interupt Itachi's Tsukuyomi which, admitted by Kakashi himself, could have killed Itachi? That's right he didn't. Itachi sparred him, not the other way around.


> There is no evidence that Itachi knew Gai was coming. If that was the case, then Kisame wouldn't have been blindsided as he would have known Gai was coming too.


Itachi has been shown to sense things throughout the entire manga. So why would it blow your mind that Itachi knew something Kisame didn't? I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility. Kisame is as observative as Itachi.


> *Wrong*. Kisame actually waited for Itachi to respond and Itachi never did so he was going to go ahead but then Jiraiya showed up. Sasuke didn't even enter the picture until after all this.


No, Sasuke showed up, not Jiraiya.  

As Kisame walked towards Naruto, appeared so my point still stands.


> And he HAD to fight Jiraiya because he was ordered to take Naruto.


  If you HONESTLY believe Itachi was actually trying to capture Naruto then quit this conversation as it's a canon fact that he wasn't.


> Yet he told Kisame to go ahead and kill them.


<insert prior statement about possibility of Itachi sensing Gai beforehand here>
Either way, it doesn't negate my point that Itachi tries his best to avoid conflict. So this counter of yours sucks because it avoids what I was even talking about.


> I wouldn't say that preventing his body from being taken over is the same thing as 'beating a Sannin'


I would consider forcing a Sannin to quit an organization and scare the shit out of said Sannin to the point he admitted inferiority, then 10 years later sealing him into an illusory world of drunken stupor beating said Sannin on two occassions. He beat him, get over it. It was implied as such by Orochimaru, Sasuke and Kishimoto. Just because we didn't see what happened next doesn't mean the implication and purpose of the panels as invalid.


> and Itachi turned his back on Jiraiya because Kisame was keeping him occupied.


Which *contradicts* his "claim" that himself + Kisame + backup could best hope for a tie against Jiraiya. 


> Well you need to say *something* if you want to win this debate because so far you're not doing so hot.


I've countered everything you said. But I will repeat since you can't understand the manga. Itachi killing Jiraiya or Jiraiya killing Itachi would only hurt Konoha. If Itachi killed Jiraiya, then Konoha lost a great protector of the village. If Jiraiya killed Itachi, then Tobi is gonna go after Konoha at a time they wouldn't be ready for him (maybe even Pein).


> Jiraiya never expressed such a thing. Him letting Sasuke fight was a matter of honer, not confidence.


If he had *no *confidence in him, he wouldn't have let it happen.


> So? I'm sure Itachi didn't know about Swamp of the Underworld and Sage Mode. What's your point?


Sage Mode takes a long ass time to prepare, and Swamp of the Underworld doesn't stop Itachi from blinking and killing Jiraiya. 

Itachi's arsenal is better equipped to eradicating people quickly than Jiraiya's who's arsenal is more about taking on masses and preparation. Meaning that in that context, Itachi had the upperhand.


> He's referring to Itachi capturing Naruto if Naruto came after them on his own. The reason why the distance is there is because Jiraiya forced *both* of them to flee.


Let's say you're right, so if Itachi's distance caused by Jiraiya was the only reason Itachi was haulted from capturing Naruto then how come Jiraiya simply said, "His distance is the only thing stopping him from..." 

So based off of what Jiraiya said, if the distance wasn't there Naruto would be captured. You can take Itachi's (a dishonest man) statement of Itachi + Kisame + Backup <= Jiraiya, but you fail to do that to Jiraiya's (a honest man) statement of *distance* keeping Itachi from capturing Naruto, _not_ Jiraiya himself?


> It's not bullshit just because you don't like it. If you can't handle the *facts*, then read a different manga.


 

Let's look at the facts:

Itachi dedicated his life to protecting Konoha
Jiraiya was the strongest shinobi at the time residing in Konoha
The Great Nations weren't best of friends
Konoha had just been severly weakened with the loss of Hiruzen and war damage from Orochimaru
With Jiraiya gone, the other nations would spring for another war
Those are the facts, Itachi had every reason to lie.

And the reason I called the Part I facts outdated is because according to Part I, Itachi was evil. Part II introduced new information that made those facts outdated and untrue. Anything in Part I that contradicts something stated in Part II, has to be written off as false as newer information is typically more accurate. Don't like the facts? Then take your own advice and read a different manga. 


> You seem to have a very broad definition of 'one-paneling'. And I wouldn't call *stalling* the same thing as 'owning'.


I wouldn't call this "stalling", but maybe you have a different definition.


*I'm done here. You keep retorting the same stuff, and I hate repeating myself. End it here. You can live with your opinions, and I'll live with mine. You won't change mine. I won't change yours. Deal? *


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 6, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Sasuke created the distance after getting kicked across the room, and left unable to move so Itachi had to move to him.
> 
> The main point of that quote is that Jiraiya recognized Itachi as more than capable of kidnapping Naruto.



Yes, Itachi is very capable of kidnapping Naruto who has no guardian.

The entire point of the conversation between Jiraiya and Naruto was because Naruto was *going to run off by himself*.



> Look at the context of my statements before trying to counter.



Try understanding the context within the manga before even making a statement.


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## shintebukuro (Aug 6, 2012)

HakuGaara said:
			
		

> If he needed to off Jiraiya in order to keep his bad guy image up then he would have done so. There was simply no reason to let Jiraiya go other than it was beneficial to avoid a direct confrontation.



...If he killed Jiraiya, then there would have been nothing in his way of capturing Naruto.

 Itachi walked into Konoha to deceive Kisame into thinking he was serious about his mission and to cause a fuss that would remind Danzou of his existence, yet he had every intention to *walk away without Naruto*.

If Naruto's protector was Asuma, Itachi would have still found a way to _not_ capture Naruto. The fact it was Jiriaya just made it easy for Itachi to feign weakness.


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## SM00TH38 (Aug 6, 2012)

there is no clusterfuck, Itachi is ahead of all the sannin. some ppl just dont want to believe that itachi would/could do the same to jiriaya as he has done to Oro...


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## principito (Aug 6, 2012)

This thread should have been closed like 400 posts ago

I'll repost my own fuycking post .... lets see if anybody gives a damn


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## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

_* SaiST sighs._

Y'know, I saw this earlier on, but decided to let it thrive for a bit, see if things would play out differently for once... While I can respect what the thread starter was trying to accomplish, nothing new has been disclosed as of late to really change anybody's opinion, or really gained from retreading this discussion yet again.

So, I'll be closing this. You're more than welcome to continue any of your on-going arguments through private/visitor messages, just try not to let them get too heated.


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