# EMS Sasuke and Itachi vs BM Naruto and Bee



## Horizon28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Location:Forest
Restrictions:Izanami
Distance: 100m

Conditions:Everyone starts in base

Who wins?


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

naruto solos.


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## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

Naruto solos


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2015)

Itachi solos.


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## Empathy (Mar 22, 2015)

I think Sasuke with perfect _Susanoo_ could beat bijuu Naruto (the one that beat the five bijuus). Perfect _Susanoo_ has repeatedly been treated as a larger threat than just the Kyuubi without natural energy augmentation, and it makes sense from a power-scaling perspective. Itachi would beat Killer Bee too, but they don't make much of a difference in this fight. I guess if Bee and Naruto charge their _Bijuudamas_ together, that could have a significant impact. That would make Itachi the least useful, unless he can prevent Bee from doing that.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

> Perfect Susanoo has repeatedly been treated as a larger threat than just the Kyuubi without natural energy augmentation



When was that treatment exactly? The only thing was mentioned is Madara's PS (who's far larger than Sasuke's) being comparable to a Bijuu.  


Naruto was even dealing with Sasuke's PS slashes with 1 of his tails. 



> Itachi would beat Killer Bee too, but they don't make much of a difference in this fight


No, he won't.


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## Empathy (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> When was that treatment exactly? The only thing was mentioned is Madara's PS (who's far larger than Sasuke's) being comparable to a Bijuu.



Base _Mokuryuu_ was primarily used to deal with the full Kyuubi in Hashirama and Madara's final battle. When base _Mokujin_ was brought out in response to _Bijuudama_, Madara retaliated with perfect _Susanoo_. _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ was used to peel off perfect _Susanoo_ from the Kyuubi, at which point _Mokujin_ put it to sleep. My point being, in their bout the Kyuubi was treated as a secondary threat to perfect _Susanoo_ by Hashirama. When Edo Madara was confronted by Naruto's full bijuu form, the Hachibi, and Gai all at once, he still responded with only base _Mokuryuu_—Hashirama's third-best technique, instead of using his own perfect _Susanoo_ to fight the Kyuubi. It succeeded in neutralizing Naruto's full bijuu form as well, and Naruto had to descend to get out of it. 

Comparatively, when Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama fought in their rematch, Hashirama fought perfect _Susanoo_ with _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ and a legged _Senpou: Mokujin_. I scale all _Susanoo_ levels off each other between Sasuke, Itachi, and Madara (barring the addition of Rikudo chakra like with Sasuke and Kakashi). There's no reason to assume their ribcages vary in strength, for example. Sasuke and Hashirama both acknowledged Sasuke's _Susanoo_ as on the same level as Madara's in the past. There's also no reason to assume Sasuke's is smaller than Madara's. Sasuke was wrapping his chakra around a smaller Kyuubi, in the same way Naruto could shape his chakra like a bird to honor Neji. Madara had to downsize his _Susanoo_ to fit around the Kyuubi as well.



> Naruto was even dealing with Sasuke's PS slashes with 1 of his tails.



He was using senjutsu in conjunction with his Kyuubi avatar. Naruto was on the defensive as well. This also ignores all of their Rikudo power-ups before then. For further evidence on top of the heaps of examples on how the Kyuubi compares to perfect _Susanoo_, Sasuke powered-up by gaining it shortly after Naruto powered-up by combining _Sennin Modo_ with Kurama. It wouldn't make any sense from a narrative perspective or through power-scaling, that Sasuke's more recent power-up still be inferior to Naruto two power-ups before then, or that Sasuke only exceeded KCM Naruto by gaining perfect _Susanoo_.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto was even dealing with Sasuke's PS slashes with 1 of his tails.



 Doesn't matter. A Senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o was portrayed to be equal to BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar. Take Senjutsu away and V3 Susano'o = BM Kurama Avatar. Perfect Susano'o is stronger than that, so logically, Perfect Susano'o overpowers BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.

 It's also not like Sasuke was trying either. He didn't even use Enton Kagutsuchi which would slice through any of his tails like butter as well as the fact that Naruto has never been shown to be able to strike with multiple tails at once against powerful opponents. This is clear against Juubito where he only managed to attack with one tail in the same amount of time it took from Sasuke's Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o to attack once.




> No, he won't.



 MS Sasuke's Amaterasu overpowered the Hachibi, so Itachi can likely do the same thing.

 As for the battle, the Uchihas win.


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## Deer Lord (Mar 22, 2015)

Nardo can match sauce but bee will overpower itachi
bee is immune to genjutsu, and he has samehade doesn't he? so amaterasu won't work.

after itachi is dead nardo and bee fire a combined BD to wipe sauce off the map.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

> =Empathy;53169196]Base _Mokuryuu_ was primarily used to deal with the full Kyuubi in Hashirama and Madara's final battle. When base _Mokujin_ was brought out in response to _Bijuudama_, Madara retaliated with perfect _Susanoo_.


And that Golem was destroyed utterly. Keep in mind, Hashirama used that Golem to deal with PS as well when he fought edo madara. 



> _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ was used to peel off perfect _Susanoo_ from the Kyuubi, at which point _Mokujin_ put it to sleep. My point being, in their bout the Kyuubi was treated as a secondary threat to perfect _Susanoo_ by Hashirama.



No. The Buddha was there because Hashirama needed its power to deal with BOTH PS & Kurama, not one of them only. Also, Kurama was being held by the Buddha so the Golem can put it to sleep. 


> When Edo Madara was confronted by Naruto's full bijuu form, the Hachibi, and Gai all at once, he still responded with only base _Mokuryuu_?Hashirama's third-best technique, instead of using his own perfect _Susanoo_ to fight the Kyuubi. It succeeded in neutralizing Naruto's full bijuu form as well, and Naruto had to descend to get out of it.



Naruto had no knowledge  about this jutsu, and still he destroyed it with his speed. Also, that madara is an ET who does not get tired, nor can he be destroyed without a sealing jutsu which Naruto does not have. That's why Madara's fighting differed. 



> Comparatively, when Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama fought in their rematch, Hashirama fought perfect _Susanoo_ with _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ and a legged _Senpou: Mokujin_. I scale all _Susanoo_ levels off each other between Sasuke, Itachi, and Madara (barring the addition of Rikudo chakra like with Sasuke and Kakashi). There's no reason to assume their ribcages vary in strength, for example.



Except Madara in that fight was in a harry because Obito became the Juubi's jinchuuriki and that's why he wanted to finish with that battle as soon as he could. However, before that you can see him sitting without paying much attention to what was going on. 2 different situations. 

And no, just because a jutsu look the same or have even the same name does not mean they are as powerful as each others. We have a lot of examples for that. 



> Sasuke and Hashirama both acknowledged Sasuke's _Susanoo_ as on the same level as Madara's in the past. There's also no reason to assume Sasuke's is smaller than Madara's. Sasuke was wrapping his chakra around a smaller Kyuubi, in the same way Naruto could shape his chakra like a bird to honor Neji. Madara had to downsize his _Susanoo_ to fit around the Kyuubi as well.


No. Such thing never happened. What they were talking about is putting the Susanoo over Kurama. What Sasuke said is something along the lines "I believe madara DID something like this in the past"
which is combining Kurama and the Susanoo. It has nothing to do with power/level. 

No, Kurama's full size is as big as Kurama, not any bigger. Sasuke's PS is as big as half of Kurama's size, not any bigger. 



> He was using natural energy in conjunction with his Kyuubi avatar. Naruto was on the defensive as well. This also ignores all of their Rikudo power-ups before then.


They recived the same amount of chakra (and Naruto wasted much chakra against Kaguya, and that point was brought up in the manga itself). And Naruto was not really using his SM chakra at the point because he started to collect that chakra after word. And yet, even his clones were able to take Sasuke's PS POWERED UP BY ALL OF THE BIJUU. And that's was BEFORE Kurama absorbing the SM chakra. 



> For further evidence on top of the heaps of examples on how the Kyuubi compares to perfect _Susanoo_, Sasuke powered-up by gaining it shortly after Naruto powered-up by combining _Sennin Modo_ with Kurama.


Does not mean anything. 
Sakura gained the full seal after Naruto and Sasuke got their Hago's chakra, does that mean she's as powerful?

Minato showed his BM when Naruto showed his BSM, does that mean the half of Kurama he had is more powerful or has more chakra than the other HALF .? 


> It wouldn't make any sense from a narrative perspective or through power-scaling, that Sasuke's more recent power-up still be inferior to Naruto two power-ups before then, or that Sasuke only exceeded KCM Naruto by gaining perfect _Susanoo_



And why wouldn't it? Wasn't Kishi who made Sasuke states that Naruto has always been a head of him? 

Heck, Sasuke's PS does not even have the shockwave that Madara's PS has.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

> [=NarutoX28;53169263]Doesn't matter. A Senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o was portrayed to be equal to BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.


utter BS. 1 tail of Kurama was enough to put it into the ground. 
8


> Take Senjutsu away and V3 Susano'o = BM Kurama Avatar. Perfect Susano'o is stronger than th at, so logically, Perfect Susano'o overpowers BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.



Nonsense. Also, Sasuke was giving Naruto's chakra and Minato's in that form, not only Jugo's senjutsu who does not even compare to Naruto's perfect SM. 


> It's also not like Sasuke was trying either. He didn't even use Enton Kagutsuchi which would slice through any of his tails like butter as well as the fact that Naruto has never been shown to be able to strike with multiple tails at once against powerful opponents. This is clear against Juubito where he only managed to attack with one tail in the same amount of time it took from Sasuke's Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o to attack once.




stop dreaming please. Enton is utter crap, and couldn't do anything to Naruto's chakra when he was hit directly. 

oh yeah? And Sasuke was never shown to be able to use Enton Kagutsuchi  with PS. 
So why it's ok for him, and not for Narudo? 




> MS Sasuke's Amaterasu overpowered the Hachibi, so Itachi can likely do the same thing.


And B trolled it, no? 
Also, Naruto can give him his chakra to protect him if anything.  


> As for the battle, the Uchihas win.


Not a chance.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

hachibi and naruto should win. while PS is strong, he just cant match naruto fire power. i mean they both got enton which would fuck over bee but for naruto that isnt an issue in the slightest 

i must say though. itachi susanoo did tank hachibi BD+FRS+YM, seeing how close they all were to the explosion its silly to think itachi susanoo didnt tank it. 

sadly BM naruto has horrendously more fire power than that. more than enough to fuck over sasuke. 

tough match but the bijuu team win

btw bee overpowering itachi is a bad joke. amaterasu takes bee out of the fight. now i still believe naruto can beat PS sasuke and itachi 

because well sasuke susnaoo isnt as strong as madara's. we have seen countless times that every technique power and utility increases with the users experience. take kamui,amaterasu, susanoo, bijuu dama, sage mode etc


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## Deer Lord (Mar 22, 2015)

again
shouldn't samehade just sap amaterasu?


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

doubt it
considering a mere katon made it uncomfortable enough to complain 
it would eat what it feels like eating. u know it does have a choice. or itachi V1 susanoo would have been absorbed when itachi grabbed bee

thanks to enton control though that wont matter. a flame spike runs through hachibi neck and kills it


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## Deer Lord (Mar 22, 2015)

there's no reason samehade would eat sussano in that scenario, it was friendly
but meh
I guess bee already trolled ama without her so it doesn't really matter.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

yh it doesnt matter
except for bee to troll ama he used up alot of chakra 
and was crying like a bitch 

dont see how that helps him here considering much better use of ama is in play. it aint like he can keep subsititng


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## Deer Lord (Mar 22, 2015)

can't he just use the V1 cloak and troll it that way?


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## Empathy (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And that Golem was destroyed utterly.



I don't recall that being shown. Hashirama blocked the blast using _Mokuton: Houbi_. Later, _Mokujin_ and _Mokuryuu_ were shown intact atop _Shinsuusenju_.



> Keep in mind, Hashirama used that Golem to deal with PS as well when he fought edo madara.



He used both _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_. The, '_senpou_,' is a very important distinction to make between base and _Sennin_ Hashirama. The disparity is made clear here: while the full Kyuubi was held off by base _Mokuryuu_ and then had to be protected from base _Mokujin_—_Sennin_ Hashirama used both _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ simultaneously against perfect _Susanoo_. It's always treated as the larger threat.



> No. The Buddha was there because Hashirama needed its power to deal with BOTH PS & Kurama, not one of them only. Also, Kurama was being held by the Buddha so the Golem can put it to sleep.



But _Chojou Kebutsu_ only succeeded in busting _Susanoo_; it didn't pulverize the Kyuubi is my point. It also cost it all of its supplementary arms, albeit the Kyuubi and _Susanoo's_ tandem attacks played a role in that.



> Naruto had no knowledge  about this jutsu, and still he destroyed it with his speed. Also, that madara is an ET who does not get tired, nor can he be destroyed without a sealing jutsu which Naruto does not have. That's why Madara's fighting differed.



It still succeeded in negating Naruto's full bijuu form. Madara being an Edo is irrelevant. He still had incentive to not be defeated, and it's not like he knew whether they had a sealing jutsu or not. I don't really see how you can spin this differently to work in Naruto's favor: Madara brought out base Hashirama's third-greatest technique to deal with Naruto's full Kyuubi form, and it succeeded in doing that, instead of Madara using his own greatest jutsu (perfect _Susanoo_) when confronted by the Kyuubi.



> Except Madara in that fight was in a harry because Obito became the Juubi's jinchuuriki and that's why he wanted to finish with that battle as soon as he could. However, before that you can see him sitting without paying much attention to what was going on. 2 different situations.



What does this have to do with anything?



> And no, just because a jutsu look the same or have even the same name does not mean they are as powerful as each others. We have a lot of examples for that.



Go ahead and prove a distinction then. No need for you to tell me you have evidence proving me wrong, and then not show what it is.



> No. Such thing never happened. What they were talking about is putting the Susanoo over Kurama. What Sasuke said is something along the lines "I believe madara DID something like this in the past"
> which is combining Kurama and the Susanoo. It has nothing to do with power/level.



That would ignore all of the senjutsu they were using to power themselves up, instead of attacking Juubi jinchuuriki Obito with something only as strong as EMS Madara. Even if Sasuke is simply referencing the perfect _Susanoo_ over Kyuubi thing, it is still an equality made by Hashirama between Sasuke and Madara's _Susanoo_, since Sasuke can't summon the Kyuubi. How can it have nothing to do with level when Sasuke is asking Hashirama if his perfect _Susanoo_ over Kyuubi is like Madara's _Susanoo_ over the Kyuubi? The fact that both _Susanoo_ and the Kyuubi were amplified by Rikudou-Sennin-sword-beating senjutsu only means that their combination was superior to EMS Madara's.



> No, Kurama's full size is as big as Kurama, not any bigger. Sasuke's PS is as big as half of Kurama's size, not any bigger.



When was this shown? Following Minato sealing half of it, the Kyuubi shrunk substantially in size; although, Naruto took some of yang Kurama's chakra before fighting Obito, which only makes Sasuke's seem even bigger. Perfect _Susanoo_ with legs and standing straight up is much taller than the Kyuubi on all fours.



> They recived the same amount of chakra (and Naruto wasted much chakra against Kaguya, and that point was brought up in the manga itself). And Naruto was not really using his SM chakra at the point because he started to collect that chakra after word. And yet, even his clones were able to take Sasuke's PS POWERED UP BY ALL OF THE BIJUU. And that's was BEFORE Kurama absorbing the SM chakra.



It's not like Sasuke didn't fight the same amount Naruto did. Naruto was using senjutsu in conjunction with his final form the entire time against Madara and Kaguya. Why in the world would Naruto be pulling punches against world-level threats? Madara even says that Naruto's form uses senjutsu, [_Link_] which is why all of Naruto's attacks worked on Madara, while Sasuke had to use ones that specifically utilized Hagoromo's chakra. Sasuke's sword going through _Rinbo_ Madara when he tried to stop him, while Naruto damaged his arm, is an example of what I mean. [1] [2] 

When Naruto gathered all the natural energy from the world's surface, he was only adding to the senjutsu he was already using instead of entering _Sennin Modo_ for the first time. You'll notice zero distinction made around Naruto's eyes even after he gathered all that natural energy. [_Link_] Naruto's _Kage Bunshins_ fighting Sasuke is irrelevant when Naruto was losing. It doesn't matter because Naruto powered-up further to Sasuke's level by absorbing the world's natural energy, and their best attacks still clashed evenly. I also find it funny that you'd consider _Susanoo_ slashes putting Naruto's tails on the defense as a negative toward Sasuke, but Sasuke's _Susanoo_ using just _Chidori_ evenly matching Naruto's senjutsu-enhanced _Bijuudama_ is glossed over.



> Does not mean anything.
> Sakura gained the full seal after Naruto and Sasuke got their Hago's chakra, does that mean she's as powerful?



Sakura is irrelevant to Naruto and Sasuke's parallels as transmigrants and you know it, because I trust you're more intelligent than that, but are just ignoring it at this time for the sake of convenience. 



> Minato showed his BM when Naruto showed his BSM, does that mean the half of Kurama he had is more powerful or has more chakra than the other HALF .?



No, but it does make Naruto's superior, as his equal amount of Kurama chakra is augmented by natural energy, and Minato's amount is not. 



> And why wouldn't it? Wasn't Kishi who made Sasuke states that Naruto has always been a head of him?



It wouldn't reflect their status as Asura and Indra descendants if Sasuke needed perfect _Susanoo_ to only surpass KCM Naruto. Any edge Naruto has, is only marginal like him ostensibly winning their final fight.  



> Heck, Sasuke's PS does not even have the shockwave that Madara's PS has.



An impaling maneuver toward a Juubi jinchuuriki wouldn't produce that like a swinging, slashing maneuver would. It's not like Sasuke's senjutsu-enhanced sword besting Rikudou Sennin's sword isn't a quantifiable feat as superior to EMS Madara's.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

@deer lord isnt that a god ruto feat?
also note even if he could, sasuke turns the enton into spikes and impales bee. ending it


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Empathy said:


> He used both _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_. The senpou is a very important distinction to make between base and _Sennin_ Hashirama. The disparity is made clear here: while the full Kyuubi was held off by base _Mokuryuu_ and then had to be protected from base _Mokujin_—_Sennin_ Hashirama used both _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ against perfect _Susanoo_. It's always treated as the larger threat.



The Mokujin was only a threat to the fox because of its ability to catch Bijudama, and both it and the Dragon _possess the unique ability to suppress the chakra of the Nine Tails._ 

If you're going to try and compare the fox with Susano'o, then you can't use Hashirama's Bijuu-suppressing wood constructs as measuring tools. Since when did the Naruto power scale become based on ABC logic?  

Oh, and for what it's worth, Edo Madara didn't even beat Hashirama's Sage Human & Dragon.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

i would have to say mokujin was very directly compared and stated to having the strength of kyuubi in the DB 
PS is compared to a bijuu. its no stronger or weaker than kyuubi. 

budda however trolls both together or separately 

i think a yata mirror totsuka sword enhanced PS might be a huge issue. Or totsuka in one hand, yata in the other and with the 3rd arm an enton blade. 

they might actually just win. While sasuke never showed his PS using YM. its something am very sure he can do. throwing enton at BD would effectly explode the BD. 

i change my mind itachi+sasuke take this


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## Empathy (Mar 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Mokujin was only a threat to the fox because of its ability to catch Bijudama, and both it and the Dragon _possess the unique ability to suppress the chakra of the Nine Tails._
> 
> If you're going to try and compare the fox with Susano'o, then you can't use Hashirama's Bijuu-suppressing wood constructs as measuring tools. Since when did the Naruto power scale become based on ABC logic?



_Mokuryuu_ doesn't have any unique absorption advantage over the Kyuubi that it doesn't have over anything else. It worked the same on the Hachibi, Gai, and Edo Madara. Hashirama's bijuu surpression was only used when the _Mokujin_ put the Kyuubi to sleep, which was done with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ holding it down. [_Link_] Madara's ability to control bijuus prevented Hashirama's until then. Base Hashirama's _Mokujin_ *only* being a threat to the Kyuubi, because it's strong enough to catch its greatest attack and shove it back at him is not some negligible, isolated reason. I don't know where it's stated that feat was only accomplished through some anti-Kurama component within all mokuton, rather than a testament to the strength Hashirama's _Mokujin_ itself. The feat is probably replicable to non-_Bijuudama_ attacks; _Mokujin_ was still used to combat Madara's unrefined perfect _Susanoo_ and its  _senpou_ variant was used to combat perfect _Susanoo_, despite not utilizing any anti-Kurama component. 



> Oh, and for what it's worth, Edo Madara didn't even beat Hashirama's Sage Human & Dragon.



It's not worth a lot, considering the disparity between base and _Sennin_ Hashirama.

This isn't directed to Rocky specially, but I just want to add yet another example of perfect _Susanoo's_ portrayal relative to the Kyuubi without natural energy. _Sennin_ Naruto's bijuu form utterly failed against Juubi jinchuuriki Obito when he fought alongside Edo Minato. His combination with Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ succeeded however, and I believe that speaks toward the portrayal of Sasuke's power-up relative to Naruto's bijuu form before he augmented it with _Sennin Modo_. I'll concede that Juugo added natural energy to Sasuke's _Susanoo_, so it could work on Obito, but in the same capacity that Naruto was going to add natural energy to Minato's attacks. I could see disputing one or two of my examples through schematics, but there just seems like too many numerous ones for every one to be relegated to technicalities. On the other hand, I don't see any evidence being presented toward Naruto's bijuu form without natural energy being presented as superior to perfect _Susanoo_; just a lot of nay-saying.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

Naruto and Bee steamroll the opposition. A single Cho Bijudama from Naruto will reduce EMS Sasuke and Itachi to ashes. EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o would be massive in size, but it'd also be weaker than Naruto's Biju Mode Avatar for the simple fact-Perfect Susano'o (unless its powered up by Rikudo Chakra) is only equal to one Biju, while Naruto's BM Avatar is the equivalent of five. And Bee trolls Itachi hard and nukes him to oblivion.

The Jinchuriki were portrayed as the stronger team in the manga too, facing Obito who was stronger than Kabuto.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

odd how against kabuto sasuke didnt use PS. u know trying not to kill him 
naruto avatar isnt the equivalent of 5 bijuu. he charged a BD to equal 5 of their BD thats about it. that doesnt remotely make him equal 

also BM has already fought PS and they were shown to be equal. both received the same rikudo power up 
its silly to think without it naruto BM would suddenly be stronger than sasuke 

as for bee nuking itachi. thats funny, i didnt know itachi forgot how to use amaterasu which pretty much GG bee
considering how it ended up for him and naruto re confirming that fact. btw naruto knew bee was a perfect jin and didnt suddenly say tsukyomi wont work on bee
just saying


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## sabre320 (Mar 22, 2015)

dual bijudama barrage gg...9 bijudama launched instantly at itachi and sasuke ends it.. one tail blocked ps sword slash naruto can casually troll amaterasu and can make bijudama far larger then 5 bijuu in a flash..

or bee goes v2 and maybe naruto even enhances him with chakra cloak and rushes itachi with samaheda and it absorbs it with some swings


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Empathy said:


> _Mokuryuu_ doesn't have any unique absorption advantage over the Kyuubi that it doesn't have over anything else. It worked the same on the Hachibi, Gai, and Edo Madara.



Naruto's chakra _stimulates_ the Mokuton. The Dragon kept _growing_ because of this. 

The Wood Human can just flat out put the fox to sleep.



> Hashirama's bijuu surpression was only used when the _Mokujin_ put the Kyuubi to sleep, which was done with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ holding it down. [_Link_] Madara's ability to control bijuus prevented Hashirama's until then.



The only way the Mokujin could defeat Biju Mode Naruto or even a knowledgeable Kurama would be that suppression method.



> Hashirama's _Mokujin_ *only* being a threat to the Kyuubi, because it's strong enough to catch its greatest attack and shove it back at him is not some negligible, isolated reason.



That wasn't his strongest attack. Even an emaciated, half-power Kurama could form gigantic Bijudama that the Wood Human has not proven capable of catching.

Naruto blows away those constructs with one attack.



> I don't know where it's stated that feat was only accomplished through some anti-Kurama component within all mokuton, rather than a testament to the strength Hashirama's _Mokujin_ itself. The feat is probably replicable to non-_Bijuudama_ attacks; _Mokujin_ was still used to combat Madara's unrefined perfect _Susanoo_ and its  _senpou_ variant was used to combat perfect _Susanoo_, despite not utilizing any anti-Kurama component.


 
You misunderstood my point.

Listen, unless you can prove that Madara's Perfect Susano'o can defeat the Sage Mokuton creatures and Biju Mode Naruto cannot _for reasons that have nothing to do with Mokuton's suppression abilities_, then you have no ground to stand on.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Nardo can match sauce but bee will overpower itachi
> bee is immune to genjutsu, and he has samehade doesn't he? so amaterasu won't work.
> 
> after itachi is dead nardo and bee fire a combined BD to wipe sauce off the map.



 Bee has never used his Bijuu Mode in conjunction with Samehada.

 Even then, you have to take into consideration that Samehada hates absorbing heat. This is obvious when Samehada could only absorb a portion of Itachi's Katon. Furthermore, Amaterasu is stated to be superior to Katon in the fact that it can burn any flames (provided there's enough chakra placed into that Amaterasu). Since Amaterasu's heat is higher than any Katon that Itachi can even use, I don't know why Samehada would be able to absorb Amaterasu.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto and Bee steamroll the opposition. A single Cho Bijudama from Naruto will reduce EMS Sasuke and Itachi to ashes. EMS Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o would be massive in size, but it'd also be weaker than Naruto's Biju Mode Avatar for the simple fact-Perfect Susano'o (unless its powered up by Rikudo Chakra) is only equal to one Biju, while Naruto's BM Avatar is the equivalent of five. And Bee trolls Itachi hard and nukes him to oblivion.
> 
> The Jinchuriki were portrayed as the stronger team in the manga too, facing Obito who was stronger than Kabuto.



 I don't agree with this.

 A Senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o took an attack from Juubito that was stronger than a Laserdama from the Juubi and Sasuke was affected the same way BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar was.

 Perfect Susano'o should be able to tank a Bijuudama from BM Naruto provided he doesn't charge a Super Bijuudama.


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## Kyu (Mar 22, 2015)

Duel Super Bijudama = two very dead siblings


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't agree with this.
> 
> A Senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o took an attack from Juubito that was stronger than a Laserdama from the Juubi and Sasuke was affected the same way BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar was.


A Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o was fodderized by BM Naruto with no Sage Mode enhancement.

Sasuke's Version 3 Susano'o had been enhanced not just by Juugo, but by _Naruto himself._ And even then, it had inferior power to Naruto's BM Avatar given Naruto was executing attacks just as strong if not stronger with just tail swipes and slashes with the 'paws'.


> Perfect Susano'o should be able to tank a Bijuudama from BM Naruto provided he doesn't charge a Super Bijuudama.


Perfect Susano'o can somewhat tank a normal Bijudama, but BM Naruto as I reiterate can create a Super Bijudama _instantly_.

Sasuke and Itachi get fodderstomped.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o was fodderized by BM Naruto with no Sage Mode enhancement.



 I guess I'm in the consensus that Madara's Susano'o was not Senjutsu Enhanced or had a minimal boost at most. I've explained it many times, but gets ignored, so .



> Sasuke's Version 3 Susano'o had been enhanced not just by Juugo, but by _Naruto himself._ And even then, it had inferior power to Naruto's BM Avatar given Naruto was executing attacks just as strong if not stronger with just tail swipes and slashes with the 'paws'.



 I don't see any indication that BSM Naruto's attacks used against Juubito were stronger. The strongest attacks used was a Senjutsu-Enhanced Arrow + Smaller Bijuudama and those had roughly the same affect.



> Perfect Susano'o can somewhat tank a normal Bijudama, but BM Naruto as I reiterate can create a Super Bijudama _instantly_.



 He can't. There is so much evidence that goes against that such as Minato requiring time charge up an Oodama Rasengan. It doesn't seem logical that a Super Bijuudama can be created instantly. We can't just assume that Bijuudama was charged instantly, the same reason we can't assume Amaterasu travels instantaneously just because Kishi doesn't want to draw more panels to show the motion/ usage of each attack.



> Sasuke and Itachi get fodderstomped.



 I guess that's your opinion then.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I guess I'm in the consensus that Madara's Susano'o was not Senjutsu Enhanced or had a minimal boost at most. I've explained it many times, but gets ignored, so .


...dude, Madara was in Sage Mode. His Susano'o was thus enhanced. You have no foot to stand on.




> I don't see any indication that BSM Naruto's attacks used against Juubito were stronger. The strongest attacks used was a Senjutsu-Enhanced Arrow + Smaller Bijuudama and those had roughly the same affect.


It seems that the Senpo: Bijudama had done the damage there. The Susano'o Arrow doesn't even explode, it pierces, there's a chance it was just deflected just like his Susano'o sword.




> He can't. There is so much evidence that goes against that such as Minato requiring time charge up an Oodama Rasengan. It doesn't seem logical that a Super Bijuudama can be created instantly. We can't just assume that Bijuudama was charged instantly, the same reason we can't assume Amaterasu travels instantaneously just because Kishi doesn't want to draw more panels to show the motion/ usage of each attack.


DUDE. ONSCREEN EVIDENCE SHOWS HE CAN. Dear god his first usage of a Super Bijudama or Bijudama in general was instant and was formed to counter the Super Bijudama formed by five Biju.

You're wrong. Manga shows you are wrong.


> I guess that's your opinion then.


Anyone who doesn't wank Uchiha knows this is true.


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## Puppetry (Mar 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o was fodderized by BM Naruto with no Sage Mode enhancement.



It was pinned down, but it didn't appear to sustain any injury. Two pages later you can see bits of flying around after the bijus' tail-slap.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> It was pinned down, but it didn't appear to sustain any injury. Two pages later you can see bits of flying around after the bijus' tail-slap.


It was damaged, there was bits and pieces of it flying off and it was unable to regain footing. Then it was destroyed by fricking Tailed Beast tailed slaps and Madara lost his arm. A senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o isn't anything compared to a Biju, much less BM Naruto.


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## Puppetry (Mar 22, 2015)

Those are rocks. The only pieces shown breaking off from Susanoo were a direct result of the other biju. In the same page you provided we see the head completely intact in the very next panel.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Those are rocks. The only pieces shown breaking off from Susanoo were a driect result of the other biju. In the same page you provided we see the head completely intact in the very next panel.


In tact, and not just rocks but Susano'o chakra were from the point of impact and around it. And still doesn't change the fact it was destroyed by _tail slaps._


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2015)

Itachi completely shits on Killer B one-on-one; it's a joke to even suggest B has a chance of winning. In terms of raw power they are comparable, but in terms of skill and focus there isn't even any comparison to be made.

Naruto and Sasuke are exactly the same strength, as Kishi beat us over the head with a million times right up until the end of the manga.


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## Puppetry (Mar 22, 2015)

I guess what the other biju do is relevant to BM Naruto's complete failing to harm Susanoo, much less Madara.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> I guess what the other biju do is relevant to BM Naruto's complete failing to harm Susanoo, much less Madara.


Madara couldn't overpower a single tail. Madara's Susano'o was turned to nothing by tailed slaps. Thus, Madara's Version 3 Susano'o with Senjutsu enhancement is nothing compared to a Biju.


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## Puppetry (Mar 22, 2015)

Multiple biju succeeded, a single biju failed. 'Nothing' sure was successful in this instance.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi completely shits on Killer B one-on-one;* it's a joke to even suggest B has a chance of winning.* In terms of raw power they are comparable, but in terms of skill and focus there isn't even any comparison to be made.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke are exactly the same strength, as Kishi beat us over the head with a million times right up until the end of the manga.







> Naruto and Sasuke are exactly the same strength,



Nonsense. 



> as Kishi beat us over the head with a million times



lol, no. 
Sasuke admitted that Naruto has always been a head of him. Nice try though. 



> right up until the end of the manga.


must be why he needed all 9 Bijuu and many other factors.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Multiple biju succeeded, a single biju failed. 'Nothing' sure was successful in this instance.


A single biju was just trying to PIN Madara who wasn't able to overpower him. Tail slaps aren't that impressive compared to everything else a Biju has, yet they were enough to obliterate a Version 3 Susano'o with Senjutsu enhancement.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

as for bee and itachi do note 3 things
1) base killer bee was fucking over taka. and even called them weak and puny. then  suddenly after suffering amaterasu sasuke goes from weak and puny to the second strongest person he has ever faced
2) KCM naruto confirming that either ama or tskuyomi would beat bee
3) KCM naruto knowing about partner method from kakashi and no doubt bee. 
4) kakashi confirming partner method would not work against tsukyomi 
5) obito being able to control yagura for years 

Sorry but itachi floors bee. quickly...

As for BM naruto tail slap. it didnt damage madara V3 susanoo. it pinned it down no different from what gamabunta did to kyuubi. i guess bunta is now on the same level as kyuubi or superior even  

V3 senjutsu susanoo was put on the same level as naruto BSM. considering both were trolled as easily by juubito and sasuke wasnt protrayed to be lagging behind 

we are also forgetting for all of naruto fire power that enton can very easily set those BD off long before they get to sasuke reducing the damage. 

why i believe naruto wins is because all of sasuke fire power really isnt dangerous to naruto bijuu avatar. enton is laughed at, arrows can be deflected which leaves sasuke with sword swings which can again be blocked. its however not some easy match 

bee and itachi simply arent that much of a factor in this match. granted bee is the least relevant here


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## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

*Rikudo Kurama avatar tanked a direct rikudo PS slash with its tail* with absolutely no damage whatsoever, 
remove the said rikudo boost, and its exactly the same, 

naruto blocks the direct PS slash with no damage, yet people have the nerve to say that Sasukes PS shockwaves (which are much weaker) are overwhelming the kurama avatar? lol NO, 

one direct slash had such minisucle damage on the avatar that there was no affect, *it took atleast 3 direct slashes to cause a damage this much*, add atleast 10 and then would it have the slight chance to moderetaly damage the avatar, otherwise this alone should blow out all of sasukes chances out the water

TBB on the other hand is different not only is it well above a PS slash, *but the power equivalent to 2 TBB (TBB and PS chidori) shrugged off the face and the entire left side of PS, *

narutos single flash TBB matched not 1 but 5 bijuus in firepower, add a couple of TBB more, or fire off 5 more continous TBB and sasukes PS gets eradicated, he literally has nothing on naruto at all, 

inb4, V3 enhanced susanoo = BSM avatar, well that V3 enhanced susanoo is pretty much PS level most likely above it, we have yin and yang kurama cloak boosting it (3x each, so it becomes 6x), as well as jugos senjutsu which amps it to 2x extra at the very least, 
removing the senjutsu boost from jugo  and SM from naruto would result in 
KCC susanoo = BM avatar, which = PS in terms of strength, speed, durability and mobility,

OT - as for the battle, nothing short of PS is even tanking a TBB, so itachi gets one shotted there, and TBBs from naruto eradicate sasukes PS which is his only hope with literally no difficulty at all, add cloaked hachibi with naruto and they stand literally no chance at all


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Feels bad when Enton Kagutsuchi is ignored which cuts through Kurama Avatar's Tails like butter.


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## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Feels bad when Enton Kagutsuchi is ignored which cuts through Kurama Avatar's Tails like butter.



we have a direct PS slash doing jack shit to the avatar, yet Enton Kagutsuchi is all of a sudden a factor?  lol no, 
then theres the fact that you have to prove how enton kagutsuchis cutting power is even remotely enough to suggest that its cutting the avatars tails?

because the only thing im feeling bad about is how useless sasukes offense is in this battle whilst for naruto thats obviously not the case


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Feels bad when Enton Kagutsuchi is ignored which cuts through Kurama Avatar's Tails like butter.


Cuts through Kurama's Avatar Tails like butter?! What?! it has absolutely _no_ feats to suggest it. Hell, Amaterasu in general cannot burn chakra! Kagutsuchi is just manipulated Amaterasu, completely useless against the BM Avatar.


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## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Feels bad when Enton Kagutsuchi is ignored which cuts through Kurama Avatar's Tails like butter.



you're still too delusional.  
I like the idea of the user name coverage though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Doesn't matter. A Senjutsu enhanced V3 Susano'o was portrayed to be equal to BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.


Correction, a Biju Mode Version 1 cloaked Senjutsu enhanced Complete Susano'o was _comparable_, but ultimately inferior to Naruto's Biju Sage Mode. Stop ignoring Naruto had empowered Sasuke up immensely.


> Take Senjutsu away and V3 Susano'o = BM Kurama Avatar. Perfect Susano'o is stronger than that, so logically, Perfect Susano'o overpowers BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar.


Take Sasuke's Senjutsu and Version 1 Cloak away, we have a completely irreverent technique that can be crushed by BM Naruto's tail or foot. Something so _tiny_! It can be swallowed by a boss summon (which is smaller than a Biju)! 

Perfect Susano'o has inferior DC and defenses that Biju Mode and Biju Mode Naruto have shown.


> It's also not like Sasuke was trying either.


He was. He was trying to kill Naruto the entire fight. Naruto was the one who was holding back. So again, you're wrong.


> He didn't even use Enton Kagutsuchi which would slice through any of his tails like butter as well as the fact that Naruto has never been shown to be able to strike with multiple tails at once against powerful opponents.


Enton: Kagutsuchi is completely useless against Naruto for one simple fact: Amaterasu can't burn chakra. Doesn't matter if he didn't apply Enton it his Susano'o sword, it is useless against a avatar made of chakra. We've seen over and over and over again that pure chakra is Amaterasu/Enton's kryptonite. It can't burn through it. 


> This is clear against Juubito where he only managed to attack with one tail in the same amount of time it took from Sasuke's Senjutsu Enhanced V3 Susano'o to attack once.


So wait, Naruto now can't use multiple tails in attacking? And stop ignoring the fact Naruto enhanced Sasuke.





> MS Sasuke's Amaterasu overpowered the Hachibi, so Itachi can likely do the same thing.


You mean the same time that Killer B _trolled_ Sasuke, purposely severing the tentacle which he could have popped out at ANY time and then nuked Sasuke or lariated him again? Itachi would be in the exact same position.


> As for the battle, the Uchihas win.


No, they lose. They lose badly.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Cuts through Kurama's Avatar Tails like butter?! What?! it has absolutely _no_ feats to suggest it. Hell, Amaterasu in general cannot burn chakra! Kagutsuchi is just manipulated Amaterasu, completely useless against the BM Avatar.



 It has feats to suggest it greatly enhances the piercing capabilities of Sasuke's Susano'o, so yes, it does. It doesn't matter if Amaterasu is useless considering Enton Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames to make it more solid and enhance Susano'o's Attack power anyways.

 While Amaterasu can't burn Chakra, it can still slice through Chakra.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

So i just read sasuke senjutsu V3 susanoo = PS 


that silly susanoo that was used against juubito doesnt even come close. Do note the only boost sasuke got was being able to affect juubito which only senjutsu can do. do note sasuke made no remarks about how much stronger his susanoo has gotten. 

this was clear, also cursed seal<<<<<<<<<<<actual senjutsu. lets not hype it. unless we want to start giving jugo hype and compare him to Sm naruto  

granted nothing short of PS would work. PS chidori would damage naruto as much as naruto BD would damage sasuke

Then there is enton chidori(probably can be pulled of with PS)- yes never shown. Both abilities isnt something he got from SoP

unlike BD FRS which probably requires too much chakra. though if naruto has that, this debate just got dumb because he floors sasuke instantly


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It has feats to suggest it greatly enhances the piercing capabilities of Sasuke's Susano'o, so yes, it does. It doesn't matter if Amaterasu is useless considering Enton Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames to make it more solid and enhance Susano'o's Attack power anyways.
> 
> While Amaterasu can't burn Chakra, it can still slice through Chakra.


It doesn't make the flames 'solid', it manipulates and shapes them. That's it, it still remains as fire. There is no feats to suggest what you are suggesting at all. Even Enton: Kagutsuchi couldn't burn through A's Raiton no Yoroi, A cut his hand off and THEN it burned. But the flames were completely ineffective on the cloak.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

@SSM12 enton control makes the flames solid do read the DB. its clearly explained it shapes them into weapons

also considering sasuke already used it to cut through some juubi wall its quite obvious it would improve the cutting ability of well any weapon its infused to 

thats common sense


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## sabre320 (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So i just read sasuke senjutsu V3 susanoo = PS
> 
> 
> that silly susanoo that was used against juubito doesnt even come close. Do note the only boost sasuke got was being able to affect juubito which only senjutsu can do. do note sasuke made no remarks about how much stronger his susanoo has gotten.
> ...



that  sussano was amped by chakra shrouds by yin and yang kurama and had senjutsu added on top which got him to survive an attack on par with bsm naruto who in just bm form tanked a laser dama from the juubi which overpowered 9 bijudama and then vaporized a mountain range something far above anything ps has tanked


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## Alucardemi (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It doesn't make the flames 'solid', it manipulates and shapes them. That's it, it still remains as fire. There is no feats to suggest what you are suggesting at all. Even Enton: Kagutsuchi couldn't burn through A's Raiton no Yoroi, A cut his hand off and THEN it burned. But the flames were completely ineffective on the cloak.



That's because he hadn't shaped that Kagutsuchi into a weapon. 

The Kagutsuchi spikes he created later, however, would have pierced through and destroyed A's leg.

That said:


*Spoiler*: __ 








This wouldn't be possible if Kagustuchi didn't make the fire at least quasi-solid.

Not taking any sides in this debate, but I do think Susanoo: Kagutsuchi is Sasuke's strongest offensive technique, bar Indra's Arrow.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> That's because he hadn't shaped that Kagutsuchi into a weapon.
> 
> The Kagutsuchi spikes he created later, however, would have pierced through and destroyed A's leg.
> 
> ...


Susano'o: Kagutsuchi just bathes a Susano'o weapon with Amaterasu, no shaping it. This it'd splash off of any chakra defense since it can't burn through it. BM Naruto's tails would deflect it without even being burned.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o: Kagutsuchi just bathes a Susano'o weapon with Amaterasu, no shaping it. This it'd splash off of any chakra defense since it can't burn through it. BM Naruto's tails would deflect it without even being burned.



Is there a scan or databook statement saying this? It wouldn't really make any sense for the susanoo to be holding a enton orb to directly shape weapons with in it's hand if that were the case.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Is there a scan or databook statement saying this? It wouldn't really make any sense for the susanoo to be holding a enton orb to directly shape weapons with in it's hand if that were the case.


Since it looks like the Susano'o weapon was coated in said orb and lit on fire.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since it looks like the Susano'o weapon was coated in said orb and lit on fire.



How/why do you think that is a covered arrow? There is nothing pointing to it and we have seen sasuke form shapes like swords/arrows in the manga already(like spikes). Are you against sasuke creating weapons directly from enton? We have seen him do it in and outside of susanoo already so i don't see the fuss.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 23, 2015)

Its pure Amaterasu:


*Spoiler*: __ 









I really don't know from where in the manga you got that idea from.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> How/why do you think that is a covered arrow? There is nothing pointing to it and we have seen sasuke form shapes like swords/arrows in the manga already(like spikes). Are you against sasuke creating weapons directly from enton? We have seen him do it in and outside of susanoo already so i don't see the fuss.





Alucardemi said:


> Its pure Amaterasu:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Because the Amaterasu Orb is only formed in the Armored/V4 Susano'o state. Consistently Complete/V3 Susano'o lacks said Amaterasu orb, so its not hard to equate that Sasuke just applied Amaterasu to a Amaterasu arrow to make the Susanoo: Kagutsuchi. In Complete/V3 Sasuke's Susano'o has an orb of Susano'o chakra


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 23, 2015)

Saiyaman in the scan you posted Susanoo had a enton orb . Look at the dark coloration compared to the actual susanoo avatar it plain as day.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 23, 2015)

I don't know if you know how "pull-shit-out-of-your-ass" that sounds.



There. Done. Can we drop this now?


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## Joakim3 (Mar 23, 2015)

Naruto wraps his Kurama shroud around Killer B to form Kyuuyuki.... 

They proceed to lol nuke team Uchiha out of existence with zero resistance


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Saiyaman in the scan you posted Susanoo had a enton orb . Look at the dark coloration compared to the actual susanoo avatar it plain as day.


No...it doesn't. The dark coloration is the same as the Susano'o itself. THIS is the Amaterasu Orb: Only formed in Version 4/Armored state.



Alucardemi said:


> I don't know if you know how "pull-shit-out-of-your-ass" that sounds.
> 
> 
> 
> There. Done. Can we drop this now?


All you've shown is a Susano'o arrow being coated in Amaterasu. Not being MADE from it. Do you even know or care the difference? One is no different from Amaterasu on Susano'o, one is actually made from the Amaterasu orb like the magatama.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @SSM12 enton control makes the flames solid do read the DB. its clearly explained it shapes them into weapons
> 
> also considering sasuke already used it to cut through some juubi wall its quite obvious it would improve the cutting ability of well any weapon its infused to
> 
> thats common sense





 Quality post.

 Enton Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames and solidifies them. This is clear against Ei where they manipulated them and took the shape of spikes which clearly would have pierced through Ei's entire body.

 Enton Kagutsuchi allowed Sasuke's Far Smaller V3 Susano'o Pierce through the Juubi's Bijuu-sized Wall like butter and that Sword literally dwarfed the size of Sasuke's Susano'o. It's clear Enton Kagutsuchi increases the piercing capabilities of Sasuke's Attacks. It would make no sense for that not to be the case.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Quality post.
> 
> Enton Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames and solidifies them. This is clear against Ei where they manipulated them and took the shape of spikes which clearly would have pierced through Ei's entire body.
> 
> Enton Kagutsuchi allowed Sasuke's Far Smaller V3 Susano'o Pierce through the Juubi's Bijuu-sized Wall like butter and that Sword literally dwarfed the size of Sasuke's Susano'o. It's clear Enton Kagutsuchi increases the piercing capabilities of Sasuke's Attacks. It would make no sense for that not to be the case.


Fair enough, but the Juubi Clone's walls aren't as durable at all as one of Naruto's BM tails. And those Juubi Clones aren't even as big as a Biju, this is how massive a Biju actually is: the magatama.. Susano'o Kagutsuchi has no feats of it being able to damage something that can tank a Juubi Bijudama.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Fair enough, but the Juubi Clone's walls aren't as durable at all as one of Naruto's BM tails. And those Juubi Clones aren't even as big as a Biju, this is how massive a Biju actually is: the magatama.. Susano'o Kagutsuchi has no feats of it being able to damage something that can tank a Juubi Bijudama.



 Can BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar tank a Juubidama?

 The Juubi-Wall is not the size of Juubi Clones. I don't want to have to pull a scan to prove something like this. Aoda is a Boss Summon and is a Size of a Bijuu. The Juubi Wall was the size of Aoda, so therefore, it is Bijuu-Sized and Sasuke's miniature V3 Susano'o which is vastly inferior to Sasuke's Bijuu-Sized V3 Susano'o managed to easily slice through it.

 As PS Slashes are on par with a Strike from BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails, PS Slashes alone should overpower BM Naruto's Kurama Tails and Enton Kagutsuchi would allow him to overpower the tails very easily.


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## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So i just read sasuke senjutsu V3 susanoo = PS
> 
> 
> that silly susanoo that was used against juubito doesnt even come close. Do note the only boost sasuke got was being able to affect juubito which only senjutsu can do. do note sasuke made no remarks about how much stronger his susanoo has gotten.
> ...



In terms of Durability, strength, and mobility, 
the Kyuubi Chakra Cloak (KCC) Susanoo = PS, here is why: 

Rikudo Kurama avatar was exact physical equals with Rikduo PS, 
subtract Rikudo, and we have BM avatar = PS, 

Yin and Yang + Senjutsu Susanoo was physical equals with BSM avatar, in terms of speed durability and strength 
remove the senjutsu from both sides and we have 
KCC susanoo = BM avatar, and using the equation above, overall we have: 
KCC susanoo = BM avatar = PS, in terms of speed, durability, mobility and strength 

juugos senjutsu is still just senjutsu, and there has beeen no manga indication or logical reasoning to jump to the conclusion that Toad SM >>>>>>> Juugos senjutsu boost, 
so their  boosts are more or less the same, no reason to beleive why not, 

and KCC susanoo = PS, according to scaling and the explanation above, 
KCC susanoo cleaved a low mountain sized branch which is pretty much PS level and directly corresponds to the strength of EMS sasukes PS, 

as for PS chidori, even if we assume that EMS sasuke could use it (its a rikudo sasuke feat), then at best it will equal a regular TBB, and he can only use one at a time, to counter a singel TBB, which would be closer to him and detonate right infront of him, which would only cause more  damaage to himself
naruto can fire 5 of them in rapid succession and can also fire bigger TBBs, so no matter how you loook at it, sasuke gets overwhelmed rather easily


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

^ Pretty much.

 Jugo's Senjutsu was powerful enough for Orochimaru to be curious as to how to use the Senjutsu and even created Cursed Seals based on that Senjutsu and that same Orochimaru wanted to attain the Sage Mode that Kabuto managed to attain.

 After all, a Partial CS Sasuke easily tanked one of Itachi's Katons which shows how powerful the Senjutsu is, despite Sasuke using it and not being as powerful as the original user of the Senjutsu.

 But , I'm certainly going to get bashed for posting this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Can BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar tank a Juubidama?


Tanks oneright here.


> The Juubi-Wall is not the size of Juubi Clones. I don't want to have to pull a scan to prove something like this. Aoda is a Boss Summon and is a Size of a Bijuu. The Juubi Wall was the size of Aoda, so therefore, it is Bijuu-Sized and Sasuke's miniature V3 Susano'o which is vastly inferior to Sasuke's Bijuu-Sized V3 Susano'o managed to easily slice through it.


The Juubi Wall was no where near as big as a Biju, it was far smaller. Boss Summons are smaller than the Biju themselves, we've seen so multiple times.

Sasuke's 'Biju Sized Susano'o' couldn't be achieved by his own, remember? No V1 cloak for Sasuke to boost his technique's power.


> As PS Slashes are on par with a Strike from BSM Naruto's Kurama Tails, PS Slashes alone should overpower BM Naruto's Kurama Tails and Enton Kagutsuchi would allow him to overpower the tails very easily.


First of all, Sasuke has never used Enton with Perfect Susano'o. He's only shown he can manipulate Raiton with it. Secondly, Naruto can tank a Juubi Bijudama, Sasuke's slashes aren't doing anything.

Stop overrating Sasuke.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 23, 2015)

As for the match it is clear sasuke and itachi loses. The god-like destruction naruto and killer bee can bring wouldn't even leave a trace of the uchiha brothers. Their susanoo's have no feats of taking that can of power, that have no space-time techniques to hax it away and they are not fast enough to lolstomp the jinchuriki's before they start throwing bijuudama's everywhere.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tanks oneright here.



 Hachibi also tanked it then. What are you suggesting here? 

 Regardless, V3 Senjutsu Enhanced PS managed to suffer the same amount of damage as a stronger Kurama Avatar against an attack stronger than the Laserdama.



> The Juubi Wall was no where near as big as a Biju, it was far smaller. Boss Summons are smaller than the Biju themselves, we've seen so multiple times.



 Gamabunta wasn't the same size as the Ichibi?



> Sasuke's 'Biju Sized Susano'o' couldn't be achieved by his own, remember? No V1 cloak for Sasuke to boost his technique's power.



 Doesn't mean he's not capable of doing so. He has a high quality of chakra, didn't consider V1 Cloaks to be anything impressive and that's notable considering he constantly acknowledges Naruto's ability to use Chakra, and Sasuke still has very high Chakra Reserves. It's not like V3 Susano'o isn't that much smaller than V4 Susano'o. We witness his Susano'o transform from V3 and slowly into V4 before forming his Perfect Susano'o and there wasn't a vast size different. It's also clear one can manipulate the size of Susano'o to an extent, so there ya go.



> First of all, Sasuke has never used Enton with Perfect Susano'o. He's only shown he can manipulate Raiton with it. Secondly, Naruto can tank a Juubi Bijudama, Sasuke's slashes aren't doing anything.
> 
> Stop overrating Sasuke.



 He can't use a basic skill like Enton Kagutsuchi with an even more powerful Susano'o? That's not logical. Why is he able to manipulate Raiton with his Susano'o, a skill that he has never attempted before compared to Enton Kagutsuchi, a skill he has used with in conjunction with Susano'o the instant he tested out his Susano'o. That makes no sense.

 He didn't tank a Juubidama, especially not the one Kakashi commented on.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hachibi also tanked it then. What are you suggesting here?


No, Bee was Kamuied and Naruto had thrown his Sage Mode Clone and Kakashi over the Juubi. Gyuki didn't tank anything. Naruto did in his BM Avatar.


> Regardless, V3 Senjutsu Enhanced PS managed to suffer the same amount of damage as a stronger Kurama Avatar against an attack stronger than the Laserdama.


The slam wasn't as strong as the Laserdama, not even close. True it carved out a deep hole, but the laserdama flatten an entire mountain range.




> Gamabunta wasn't the same size as the Ichibi?


No, he was a bit smaller. Their sizes were comparable, but Shukaku was larger.




> Doesn't mean he's not capable of doing so. He has a high quality of chakra, didn't consider V1 Cloaks to be anything impressive and that's notable considering he constantly acknowledges Naruto's ability to use Chakra, and Sasuke still has very high Chakra Reserves. It's not like V3 Susano'o isn't that much smaller than V4 Susano'o. We witness his Susano'o transform from V3 and slowly into V4 before forming his Perfect Susano'o and there wasn't a vast size different. It's also clear one can manipulate the size of Susano'o to an extent, so there ya go.


Sasuke IS incapable of doing so. Without the V1 Cloak, Sasuke's Susano'o is stuck at this size. Even with the armor, its stuck at this size and power.

Nothing, not anywhere close to the size of a boss summon, much less than a Biju.

V1 Cloaks aren't impressive? It turns Hinata's Air Palm from this to this. Can't you see the monumental difference that it gives to the receiver, NarutoX28?


> He can't use a basic skill like Enton Kagutsuchi with an even more powerful Susano'o? That's not logical. Why is he able to manipulate Raiton with his Susano'o, a skill that he has never attempted before compared to Enton Kagutsuchi, a skill he has used with in conjunction with Susano'o the instant he tested out his Susano'o. That makes no sense.


It became apparent that Sasuke loses his Enton skill in Perfect Susano'o, it has no orb for the Amaterasu. Instead, he channels his Raiton through it for Chidori's or Indra Arrow. 


> He didn't tank a Juubidama, especially not the one Kakashi commented on.


I linked you to it. You have a hard time remembering Naruto's feats, but you don't have a problem exaggerating Sasuke's.


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## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

What can the uchiha fodders brothers do against Naruto's clones with the BM avatars?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, Bee was Kamuied and Naruto had thrown his Sage Mode Clone and Kakashi over the Juubi. Gyuki didn't tank anything. Naruto did in his BM Avatar.



 Then you're referring to the Juubi's Laserdama which was inferior to anything he could even create. We've seen what a Juubidama can do and every time a Juubidama is used, it's implied to be able to kill everyone.



> The slam wasn't as strong as the Laserdama, not even close. True it carved out a deep hole, but the laserdama flatten an entire mountain range.



 flatten an entire mountain range.

* "We should try and conserve as much of the Juubi's Power as possible." *

 Regardless, anyone can tell that was a far smaller Laserdama than the one the Juubi used that dwarfed an entire mountain range.





> No, he was a bit smaller. Their sizes were comparable, but Shukaku was larger.



 I'm too lazy to check, but that pretty much confirms the Juubi Wall is relatively close to Bijuu-Size.





> Sasuke IS incapable of doing so. Without the V1 Cloak, Sasuke's Susano'o is stuck at this size. Even with the armor, its stuck at this size and power.



 I already refuted that as Sasuke was shown to create a V4 Susano'o bigger than the Bijuu-Sized V3 Susano'o before even using the PS, all without a Kurama Cloak.



> Nothing, not anywhere close to the size of a boss summon, much less than a Biju.





 What leads you to that reasoning?



> V1 Cloaks aren't impressive? It turns Hinata's Air Palm from this to this. Can't you see the monumental difference that it gives to the receiver, NarutoX28?



 Sasuke isn't HInata. 

 Really? Is that why Minato's BM Chakra can't enhance Naruto's BM Chakra Output considering Minato is capable of linking chakra to Naruto? 

 Either way, Sasuke himself wasn't even impressed by the Chakra and with Susano'o, there's really no reason for Naruto protect Sasuke with a powerful V1 Cloak considering it's main purpose was to protect the entire Shinobi Alliance.



> It became apparent that Sasuke loses his Enton skill in Perfect Susano'o, it has no orb for the Amaterasu. Instead, he channels his Raiton through it for Chidori's or Indra Arrow.



 That Amaterasu Orb is created by Chakra.

 Perhaps Raiton is superior to his Enton Kagutsuchi in terms of piercing capabilities. After all, it did allow him to stalemate a Bijuudama. Either way, Raiton allows him to pierce through BM Kurama Avatar's Tails easily.



> I linked you to it. You have a hard time remembering Naruto's feats, but you don't have a problem exaggerating Sasuke's.


 
 I already claimed why that Juubi Laserdama was inferior to anything the Juubi can use.

 Exaggerating Sasuke's feats? Hardly. At least I don't claim Sasuke surpassed Madara. Despite my Avatar, I don't wank Sasuke to unbelievable levels. Hell, I always acknowledged that EoS Naruto > EoS Sasuke. Anyways, I originally thought Team Jinchuuriki would win until I realized that Itachi can just subdue the Hachibi with Amaterasu/


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Then you're referring to the Juubi's Laserdama which was inferior to anything he could even create. We've seen what a Juubidama can do and every time a Juubidama is used, it's implied to be able to kill everyone.


There's no power difference between the laserdama used against Naruto and the one used later.




> to this.
> 
> * "We should try and conserve as much of the Juubi's Power as possible." *
> 
> Regardless, anyone can tell that was a far smaller Laserdama than the one the Juubi used that dwarfed an entire mountain range.


No, it was the exact same type. Same usage of power. Same size. Naruto tanked it flat out.






> I'm too lazy to check, but that pretty much confirms the Juubi Wall is relatively close to Bijuu-Size.


No. Aoba was hugging the ground for speed. The Juubi Wall was taller than him. Aoba wasn't at his full height. 






> I already refuted that as Sasuke was shown to create a V4 Susano'o bigger than the Bijuu-Sized V3 Susano'o before even using the PS, all without a Kurama Cloak.


He's never created a V4 Susano'o that big at ALL at anytime in the manga nd you know it. He has TWO usages of the V4 Susano'o and both were smaller than a Biju's foot!




> What leads you to that reasoning?


SINCE WE'VE SEEN THE BEST SASUKE'S SUSANO'O CAN DO WITHOUT ENHANCEMENT! ITS PATHETICALLY SMALL IN COMPARISON TO A BIJU! 




> Sasuke isn't HInata.


Sasuke was enhanced. He was empowered. It wasn't his own power that formed the giant V3 Susano'o. 
pquote]Really? Is that why Minato's BM Chakra can't enhance Naruto's BM Chakra Output considering Minato is capable of linking chakra to Naruto? [/quote]
Naruto's the only one who can enhance and link shinobi via this method.


> Either way, Sasuke himself wasn't even impressed by the Chakra and with Susano'o, there's really no reason for Naruto protect Sasuke with a powerful V1 Cloak considering it's main purpose was to protect the entire Shinobi Alliance.


Sasuke wasn't impressed? Which is why he got impressed here by the cloak? Or the fact he was so pissed off that Naruto had pulled so far ahead of him by this point? Even Sasuke doesn't support your view.




> That Amaterasu Orb is created by Chakra.
> 
> Perhaps Raiton is superior to his Enton Kagutsuchi in terms of piercing capabilities. After all, it did allow him to stalemate a Bijuudama.


Only after getting Biju Chakra itself. And at no point at all Sasuke has used Enton in conjunction with his Perfect Susano'o. Hence, he can't use it.




> I already claimed why that Juubi Laserdama was inferior to anything the Juubi can use.


Even if it was, it's still far superior to a Perfect Susano'o attack.


> Exaggerating Sasuke's feats? Hardly. At least I don't claim Sasuke surpassed Madara. Despite my Avatar, I don't wank Sasuke to unbelievable levels Hell, I always acknowledged that EoS Naruto > EoS Sasuke. Anyways, I originally thought Team Jinchuuriki would win until I realized that Itachi can just subdue the Hachibi with Amaterasu/


And then Gyuki can troll Itachi? Forgot he did so in the manga?


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## Veracity (Mar 23, 2015)

How was Juubitos slam not as powerful as the juubi laser when it destroyed Sage Naruto AND EMS sasukes megazoid while the laser couldn't even get through Naruto's tails?


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## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> How was Juubitos slam not as powerful as the juubi laser when it destroyed Sage Naruto AND EMS sasukes megazoid while the laser couldn't even get through Naruto's tails?



Well for the Juubi Laser, naruto braced himself with his tails which protected his main body ALOT, 
if naruto took the beam head on at his body, then his avatar wouldve been obliterated, 
BSM avatar couldnt  protect himself with his tails during drop slam, since juubito restrained hinm prior to that, 
howevver if naruto did protect his body, then im inclined to say that he coulde tanked the blow, 

we cant make a direct comparsion between the 2 since they are quite different 
however the juubi beam drilled through 9 TBB like they were nothing, so its at the very least stronger than 9 TBB, 
but in no way is a beam even close to V2 Juubidama that we have seen,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> How was Juubitos slam not as powerful as the juubi laser when it destroyed Sage Naruto AND EMS sasukes megazoid while the laser couldn't even get through Naruto's tails?


Since it caused less damage to the surrounding area.


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Well for the Juubi Laser, naruto braced himself with his tails which protected his main body ALOT,
> if naruto took the beam head on at his body, then his avatar wouldve been obliterated,
> BSM avatar couldnt  protect himself with his tails during drop slam, since juubito restrained hinm prior to that,
> howevver if naruto did protect his body, then im inclined to say that he coulde tanked the blow,
> ...



Umm no? I would agree with you if Narutos complete megazoid wasn't wiped off the map tails and all instantaneously: so pissed off that Naruto had pulled so far ahead of him by this point?

There is no logic behind what you typed and nothing in this world will make me change my stance as that's literally illogical. The Juubi's laser was only able to destroy Bjuii-Mode Narutos tails while the slam destroyed Bjuii-Sage Narutos tails along with Sasukes amped Sussano. It didn't leave any part of the cloak behind and by your logic, if it truly was weaker it would have left Narutos tails still stabilized as its a part of the megazoid. 

@super

Not even gonna bother with a debate if you think environmental damage is an indication of power( between those techs) in a manga as inconsistent as naruto. Kishi doesn't even create illustrations with that idea in mind as he isn't some type of inhuman scaler. And he himself couldn't give 2 shits about his own manga at that point. You can refute this if you want to, but I'm prolly not going to reply as I 100% disagree.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> that  sussano was amped by chakra shrouds by yin and yang kurama and had senjutsu added on top which got him to survive an attack on par with bsm naruto who in just bm form tanked a laser dama from the juubi which overpowered 9 bijudama and then vaporized a mountain range something far above anything ps has tanked



PS tanked budda granted it was stripped off
however budda which tanked 13 susanoo BD is well above what u just mentioned 

like i said cursed seal isnt remotely on the same level as senjutsu. its a silly version of it. dont give it false hype. unless ur saying if jugo added senjutsu to sasuke PS he would rape naruto 

"(this is the part where u change ur mind and say the increase isnt so much) ur easy to catch 

9 BD <<<<<<<<<<<<13 susanoo BD from 100% kyuubi. considering kyuubi>>>>>>>>>>>>>hachibi

nice try though. that senjutsu legged susanoo and PS arent in the same league.


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## sabre320 (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> PS tanked budda granted it was stripped off
> however budda which tanked 13 susanoo BD is well above what u just mentioned
> 
> like i said cursed seal isnt remotely on the same level as senjutsu. its a silly version of it. dont give it false hype. unless ur saying if jugo added senjutsu to sasuke PS he would rape naruto
> ...



what you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that the juubi laser overpowered 9 bijudama no issue and wasnt slowed at all and then proceeded to vaporize a mountain range....this is the juubi far above kyuubi ps or shinsensenju..it is not equal to 9 bijudama at all its far superior....the standard bijudama and bijudama from the hachibi have the same yeild and power they destroy one mountain.....the difference is kyubi can make absolutely gigantic ones... 

youre downplay of the chakra shrouds capacities is rather blatant ...standard shroud from just kcm naruto allowed a fodder ninja to tank tenpenchi! chakra shroud from bm naruto allowed hinata to bitchslap the juubis tails while without it she could barely throw back a white zetsu..then you double that shroud by adding yin kurama to the mix and add senjutsu on top the sheer upgrade is massive and if a fodder can survive tenpenchi the far upgraded powerups put sasukes sussano above ps in durability

the curse seal is senjutsu it isnt controlled enough to provide the bodily benefits of sage mode but provides the same nature energy none the less and showed the same capacities as narutos senjutsu for the chakra avatars


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

tenpechi did nothing to V3 susanoo why hype such  a weak jjutsu

so naruto BM avatar tanked juubidama with his tails. despite the gap in power, so why on earth u thnking naruto BD would eradicate sasuke PS? what basis are u going on. 

sasuke senjutsu susanoo is far beneath PS. from feats and what they tanked. it took budda to strip susanoo completely off kyuubi. thats faaaaar above juubito simply tossing sasuke to the ground 

btw that also worked on naruto BSM avatar. maybe juubito tossing u to the ground is stronger than a BD from juubi  

senjutsu simply made sasuke able to affect juubi thats all. KN cloak was an insigificant increase to sasuke power seeing he has the chakra levels to use PS. such a boost does him no good.


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## sabre320 (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> tenpechi did nothing to V3 susanoo why hype such  a weak jjutsu
> 
> so naruto BM avatar tanked juubidama with his tails. despite the gap in power, so why on earth u thnking naruto BD would eradicate sasuke PS? what basis are u going on.
> 
> ...



theres just no reasoning with you anymore....a basic chakra cloak matched v3 sussanos durability which you claim is pathetic now...

thats bm narutosfeattt it i a brilliant feat....narutos standard bijudama isnt destroying ps a superbijudama would you know the one far larger then all the bijuu combined thatone...

juubito managed to rip the freaking hokage barrier with just his basic chakra arms strength while not in control of his power this barrier tanked the juubis super juubidama do the freaking math juubito then used an advanced form of his chakra arms while in control that is power that dwarfs shinsensenju his basic chakra arms while out of control destroyed the barrier with absolute ease


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> theres just no reasoning with you anymore....a basic chakra cloak matched v3 sussanos durability which you claim is pathetic now...
> 
> thats bm narutosfeattt it i a brilliant feat....narutos standard bijudama isnt destroying ps a superbijudama would you know the one far larger then all the bijuu combined thatone...
> 
> juubito managed to rip the freaking hokage barrier with just his basic chakra arms strength while not in control of his power this barrier tanked the juubis super juubidama do the freaking math juubito then used an advanced form of his chakra arms while in control that is power that dwarfs shinsensenju his basic chakra arms while out of control destroyed the barrier with absolute ease



 the cloak didnt match V3 susanoo tenpachi was simply a shit move and it didnt affect both of them. that doesnt remotely mean V1 cloak is a durable as V3 susanoo. lol clown 

yh so then u agree juubito chakra arm is stronger than juubidama correct? 

and juubidama>>naruto BD correct?

juubito chakra arm ripped naruto BSM cloak correct?

now considering it took a stornger attack than naruto BD to rip naruto BSm avatar off. why on earth do u think naruto BD would decimate sasuke PS. when juubidama which exceeds naruto own BD couldnt even slow naruto down???

u would be foolishly assuming naruto BSM is far far far above PS.which it was never remotely stated to be. considering when PS finally faced naruto kyuubi avatar naruto wasnt trolling sasuke. chidori clashed with BD and they both seemed fine. 

no way is naruto using his tail to tank juubi BD yet his own BD decimates sasuke if naruto wasnt leaps and bounds and more leaps above sasuke PS. nothing in the manga even remotely implies such


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## sabre320 (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the cloak didnt match V3 susanoo tenpachi was simply a shit move and it didnt affect both of them. that doesnt remotely mean V1 cloak is a durable as V3 susanoo. lol clown
> 
> yh so then u agree juubito chakra arm is stronger than juubidama correct?
> 
> ...



See heres the funny thing bsm naruto tanked juubitos guodama chakra arm body slam along with sasukes upgraded sussano which consisted of double chakra cloaks and senjutsu 

a weaker form of juubito with less advanced chakra arms casually tore through the hokage barrier which easily tanked juubis super juubidama this strength is far beyond ps and shinsensenju 

ps was destroyed by strength of a far lower level

and yet you claim ps is superior

rikudo narutos avatar easily blocked the full might of rikudo sasukes ps sword swing let that sink in while holding back naruto with just one tail blocked ps main offense....he has 8 other tails to restrain ps like he did the 5 bijuu..

sasuke used chidori thats cute the avatar could have used a frs to eradicate sasukes sussano and his chidori or used a much larger bijudama ect he had firepower in bijudama rasenshuriken that sasukes sussano couldnt dream of..and his avatr was tanking hits from sasukes bijuu ps so please tell me how was sasukes ps narutos bm avatars equal?


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

BSM didnt tank it. naruto lost his avatar the second he hit the ground 

i never claimed PS is superior 

the full might. prove it was the full might of his swing. i can easily claim naruto put all his chakra into blockign that sword. 

both avatar are equal because the author wills it. FRS hahah dont make me laugh. sasuke replies with enton and frs becomes more enton to be used against naruto 

nice fan fic though that despite naruto apparent ridiculous power difference he didnt just decide to restrain sasuke with maybe say 2 tails. cuz u know one is more than enough to deal with PS. 



aruging with kishi at its best


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 24, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> See heres the funny thing bsm naruto tanked juubitos guodama chakra arm body slam along with sasukes upgraded sussano which consisted of double chakra cloaks and senjutsu



 Yet we have no indication that Sasuke received a boost form it at all considering he has a very high quality of Chakra due to being an Uchiha and having Indra Chakra.

 Furthermore, why would Naruto give a powerful V1 Cloak when Naruto was more focused on protecting the entire Alliance? Sasuke himself had Susano'o, so there was no point in giving him a powerful V1 Cloak as it was only meant for protection for fodder. You also have seemed to fail to comprehend IceGaze's argument. Sasuke's Quality of Chakra that allowed him to use PS along with having Indra's Chakra makes his Quality of Chakra unimaginably higher compared to the Shinobi Alliance. That alone makes the boost rather minimal at best. If we really want to put things in perspective, imagine Rikudou Sasuke receiving a V1 Cloak. Would he also receive the same boost as the Shinobi Alliance did despite having far superior Chakra Quality? It seems ridiculous when you actually think logically about it.

 That and BM Minato couldn't even enhance BM Naruto's Chakra with his own 50% Kurama despite the fact that Minato himself stated he could link his chakra to Naruto like he did when sealing Kurama inside of him.

 Senjutsu certainly did boost him though, judging from Tobirama's statement.



> a weaker form of juubito with less advanced chakra arms casually tore through the hokage barrier which easily tanked juubis super juubidama this strength is far beyond ps and shinsensenju



 Obito has methods of deactivating barriers. Him being a Juubi-Jin along with gaining abilities that surpassed what he was capable of during the 3rd Shinobi War doesn't make it all too surprising that he could counter it. Breaking Barriers =/= Power Output. 



> ps was destroyed by strength of a far lower level
> 
> and yet you claim ps is superior



 PS = BSM Kurama Avatar >> BM Kurama Avatar. Problem?



> rikudo narutos avatar easily blocked the full might of rikudo sasukes ps sword swing let that sink in while holding back naruto with just one tail blocked ps main offense....he has 8 other tails to restrain ps like he did the 5 bijuu..



 Sasuke has another Sword, Enton Kagutsuchi, and Raiton, so he cuts through tails like butter.

 It's been constantly shown that Naruto strikes with one tail just as quick as Sasuke is able to strike. This is clear against Juubito where he managed to outrun both and Naruto himself only managed to strike with one tail. I swear, you guys wank Naruto like crazy. Many claims that he can use multiple tails and chakra arms against opponents within his level yet has no feats or evidence to suggest he can.



> sasuke used chidori thats cute the avatar could have used a frs to eradicate sasukes sussano and his chidori or used a much larger bijudama ect he had firepower in bijudama rasenshuriken that sasukes sussano couldnt dream of..and his avatr was tanking hits from sasukes bijuu ps so please tell me how was sasukes ps narutos bm avatars equal?



 The Naruto wank is horrible.

 - Sasuke can match Naruto's Chakra Output, meaning Enton Kagutsuchi overpowers FRS.

 - Chidori stalemated a Bijuudama which is sad considering Chidori < Rasengan. 

  - You're using Rikudou feats which is retarded because it was clear Sasuke could only beat EoS Naruto with the power of the 9 Bijuu while it was shown that Sasuke and Naruto (Pre-Rikudou Power Up) were equals.

  - Again Rikudou feats. Sasuke's V3 Senjutsu Enhanced Susano'o still tanked an attack the same way BSM Kurama Avatar did.

 - Sasuke's PS is actually larger than BSM Kurama Avatar considering it needed to be to form the armor around the Kurama Avatar, so size could very well indicate superiority here.


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## ARGUS (Mar 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Umm no? I would agree with you if Narutos complete megazoid wasn't wiped off the map tails and all instantaneously: Look at the scan


Bracing from an attack and protecting your main body from your tails and arms helps you survive an attack much better than getting hit right on your head, 
Logic! you should use it   



> There is no logic behind what you typed and nothing in this world will make me change my stance as that's literally illogical.


Not an argument at all, and i suggest you stop degrading and calling it ''illogical'' without even countering it, 
there is nothing, but logic that is used, something which you are not really using here, 
BM avatars body + tails durability >> BM avatar body durability  



> The Juubi's laser was only able to destroy Bjuii-Mode Narutos tails while the slam destroyed Bjuii-Sage Narutos tails along with Sasukes amped Sussano. It didn't leave any part of the cloak behind and by your logic, if it truly was weaker it would have left Narutos tails still stabilized as its a part of the megazoid.



Naruto got hit at his head by the drop slam, 
whilst he completely covered himself with his tails, and his arms before the beam could get to his body, 

had the beam hit him directly, and then we wouldve had narutos avatar getting raped, and had naruto protected himself with his tails and his arms to reduce the impact of drop slam, then there is a big possibility that he wouldve tanked the attack,


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Bracing from an attack and protecting your main body from your tails and arms helps you survive an attack much better than getting hit right on your head,
> Logic! you should use it
> 
> 
> ...



Are you kidding me ? Bracing for an attack doesn't matter if your entire body is obliterated. It destroyed Narutos cloak to the point where he reverted to Sage Naruto with no cloak at all: Look at the scan

It wouldn't matter if Naruto pulled his tails over his head to block the force of the slam as the force was strong enough to hit his head and still have enough force left over to destroy his body + Tails. So yeah you have no argument here at all and I'm degrading anything . Should I add on the fact that a BSM cloak is >>>> to a BM cloak, and still Juubito destroyed the BODY + TAILS AT THE SAME TIME .

I don't understand what you are trying to say ? You would have a point, IF AND ONLY IF, the slam only destroyed Narutos cloaked body and not his tails. But that's not what happened. It destroyed the body + tails, and you still seem to not realize that that was BSM Naruto and not BM Naruto.

Let me also go further and put this into some basic perceptive for you. If explosion A goes off and hits you dead in the face resulting in the explosion knocking you unconscious . AND then explosion B is blocked with your arms but you could still continue to fight after then you might just have a point. But what happened here , is one instance the explosion hits the individual and they put up a guard with his arms being completely Burned off as a result (but his actual body isn't harmed) and in the other the individual is unable to put up a guard but is reduced to nothing by the explosion. The second explosion is still far more powerful. What stopped Naruto from taking damage from the juubi laser is the Durabilty of his chakra tails. You do realize his chakra tails and body were destroyed all together by the body slam right ?


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## Sorin (Mar 25, 2015)

Naruto can likely solo.

He's faster than both, has superior fire power to both, can multiply himself and his clones can fire bijuudamas casually. Itachi is a non factor really, since one clone anihilates him pretty fast.

Now Naruto has Bee by his side. Add in the fact that Naruto has a larger chakra than that of the 2 brothers and can share it to enhance Bee even more, and it's mindboggling how can someone even debate this match up.

Naruto is quite versatile and is made to take on multiple opponents.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 25, 2015)

> It wouldn't matter if Naruto pulled his tails over his head to block the force of the slam as the force was strong enough to hit his head and still have enough force left over to destroy his body + Tails. So yeah you have no argument here at all and I'm degrading anything . Should I add on the fact that a BSM cloak is >>>> to a BM cloak, and still Juubito destroyed the BODY + TAILS AT THE SAME TIME .



If the body is destroyed, then the Avatar disappears regardless of whether or not the tails were destroyed, that's why Juubito can destroy the Avatar with an attack weaker than the Juubi laser, cause he blew apart the main body. When he blocks with the tails, the force of the attack is all taken into his tails, so his main body comes out with no damage, thus the Avatar can still fight.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 25, 2015)

Argus has presented a good point that I feel can't be ignored.

 However, considering both the Susano'o and BSM Kurama Avatar took the same amount of damage, it would only be logical that Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o can tank the same Laserdama BM Kurama Avatar tanked provided he braces himself.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 25, 2015)

I'd have to agree with Likes Boss with regards to the Juubito Slam.

It wasn't as if the body of the avatar was destroyed in an isolated instance, and then the tails and remainder gradually faded afterward. We've seen chakra constructs "fade away" before and Kishi has depicted this many times[see: HashivsMads clear example]. The pages of the impact however does not look like that at all. 

The entirety of the chakra construct was literally there in one panel and completely gone in the very next panel after the attack. 

Juubito unlike the Juubi was stated to be in control of all the power and capable of "focusing" it[1]. This distinction between Juubito and the Juubi was made early and clear after Obito became the jinchuuriki. The simple fact of the matter is that Juubito's slam applied more force and power than the Juubi's spread out, saturated, unfocused laser did. You have a better chance of surviving a carpet bombing than surviving superman punching you directly.


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> If the body is destroyed, then the Avatar disappears regardless of whether or not the tails were destroyed, that's why Juubito can destroy the Avatar with an attack weaker than the Juubi laser, cause he blew apart the main body. When he blocks with the tails, the force of the attack is all taken into his tails, so his main body comes out with no damage, thus the Avatar can still fight.



Coming from someone who's chakra control is literally top tier and can create separate chakra cloaks for every member of a Shinobi  alliance while drastically changing the chakra concentration at will while also forming mini chakra tails/fox attributions to each cloak, is find it UNLIKELY that he can't maintain his chakra tails and body at the same time. Or that his tails wouldn't simply fade away after the attack landed, providing the attack only Injured Narutos body and he couldn't mentally maintain the rest. That wasn't the case there though was it ? It destroyed narutos cloak all at once. No change of fading considering the tails and body weren't even visible seconds later. Let me also add on the fact that even if Narutos body was seemingly destroyed and his tails just disappeared he would most likely remain in his Bjuui cloak right ? Not the case here. The Juubito slam did so much damage Naruto reverted back to Base Sage Mode as soon as he was hit. 

Then let me also on the fact that Naruto can maintain concentrated parts of his megazoid without actually being in that form lol. Like here: Link removed
Link removed

And even formed megazoid tails in his human Bjuii form: Link removed

 Find it hard that his tails would have to disappear but please do provide some feats .


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 25, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> If the body is destroyed, then the Avatar disappears regardless of whether or not the tails were destroyed, that's why Juubito can destroy the Avatar with an attack weaker than the Juubi laser, cause he blew apart the main body. When he blocks with the tails, the force of the attack is all taken into his tails, so his main body comes out with no damage, thus the Avatar can still fight.



 Unfortunately, that doesn't prove Argus's argument is correct.

 Naruto braced himself with his tails to protect the core of his Avatar. If you destroy the core, the rest falls with it. Naruto using his tails to defend against the Laserdama protects his core as more of the force is directed towards the tail and allows him to survive. 

 So basically, Tails didn't lower the amount of force being applied to Naruto, but protected the Core of his Avatar which allowed his Avatar to tank the Laserdama.

 I'm starting to shift towards LikeBoss esp. after Lawrence's perspective, but Argus surprisingly brought up a really good point.


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## sabre320 (Mar 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> BSM didnt tank it. naruto lost his avatar the second he hit the ground
> 
> i never claimed PS is superior
> 
> ...



The avatar allowed naruto to survive the attack 

you claimed ps is far superior to the multi upgraded sussano while it has far superior feats

both avatars are equal thats interesting considering naruto in base humanoid form tanked the chakra punches of kaguya while the same punches destroyed rikudo sasukes ps....hmmmm
i do believe the avatar is more durable then humanoid naruto no?

enton dosent instantly turn frs to enton in cqc range the enton will enhance the frs ...naruto can also use yoton rasenshuriken enhanced by the avtar against sasukes paltry ps chidori...

naruto has 9 tails each can be turned into chakra arms capable of immobilizing and strangling bijuus in bm....here naruto blocked sasukes sword swing with one tail naruto was holding back in canon while sasuke was not..he can use the other nine tails to restrain ps arms leaving it open to attack...

worst comes to worst naruto nukes it with bijudama rasenshuriken please tell me ps chidori matches that i dare u

regarding this fight 
bm naruto beats sasuke
a kyuubi cloaked v2 bee lol weilding samaheda eats away at itachis sussano till itachi keels over..


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## Bonly (Mar 26, 2015)

A potential cloaked B should tip the scales in the Bijuu Duo favor. I'd favor Naruto beating Sasuke and while Itachi is strong he's not strong enough to take out BM Naruto and the cloak should be good enough to protect B from damn near everything Itachi can do bar genjutsu though Tsukuyomi is the only thing that Itachi can do to put B down but whether that's likely to happen or not depends how the battle plays out, but Itachi for the most part would be the weakest link here who can't do much and Sasuke isn't good enough to pick up the slack more times then not.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> The avatar allowed naruto to survive the attack
> 
> you claimed ps is far superior to the multi upgraded sussano while it has far superior feats
> 
> ...



i had no idea the silly cursed seal susanoo could swing mountain ranges and slice them in half 
hmmm...how could i have missed that 
if u mean defensively again PS lost to kaguya who makes obito look like a speck of dust 
so how exactly does PS have less impressive feats?

it survived 1000 arm attack and the explosion of 13BD's. since when was that less than being ragdolled to the ground 

enton hits FRS, it becomes enton. FRS turned to enton once sasuke arrow hit it. it took no time at all 

so why didnt naruto just use the other 8 tails to  hold sasuke PS down. i mean he is so so so so much stronger. why waste his time fighting such a weakling right. 

go on and use the PS cop out called plot or any silly excuse you want. sasuke was havin a casual convo with naruto telling him he will die if he isnt serious 

that doesnt remotely imply sasuke was trying his hardest and failing to kill naruto. considering he showed no frustration that naruto was still standing. wont u be frustrated if u trying hard to kill someone and then not even sure ? cuz well you arent doing much. where was sasuke frustration?

u would have to prove that kyuubi cloak would improve bee fighting ability. it would be such a minor boost that it would make no difference. it boosted kakashi chakra levels 3 times cuz kakashi got useless chakra levels. 

but bee chakra level far exceeds V1 cloak. no need to even mention it helping bee in this scenario


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## ARGUS (Mar 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Are you kidding me ? Bracing for an attack doesn't matter if your entire body is obliterated. It destroyed Narutos cloak to the point where he reverted to Sage Naruto with no cloak at all: comes from filler here


Bracing from an attack prevents the full body to even take the whole blow, 
so yeah it does matter and renders your entire point moot, 

if a baseball is coming at my face, then using my arms to protect my face would pretty much keep my head safe, 
your logic dictates that me using my hands to protect my face wont even matter and the ball would just hit my face, do you seriously see how dumb this sounds, 



> It wouldn't matter if Naruto pulled his tails over his head to block the force of the slam as the force was strong enough to hit his head and still have enough force left over to destroy his body + Tails. So yeah you have no argument here at all and I'm degrading anything . Should I add on the fact that a BSM cloak is >>>> to a BM cloak, and still Juubito destroyed the BODY + TAILS AT THE SAME TIME .


No, naruto was upside down and restrained before juubito drop slammed the avatars face, 
protecting himself from his tails which are probably one of the most durable part of the avatar, would require the attack to go through the tails first and only the remaining diminshed force has chance to get the real body, 

juubito hit the avatars head, not his tails, and once naruot himself was affected, the avatar obviously disappeared, whch included the tails themselves 



> I don't understand what you are trying to say ? You would have a point, IF AND ONLY IF, the slam only destroyed Narutos cloaked body and not his tails. But that's not what happened. It destroyed the body + tails, and you still seem to not realize that that was BSM Naruto and not BM Naruto.


If only juubito actually breached through the tails and the body, yet that wasnt the case, 
he only breached the body, 
once naruto himself got hit, the entire avatar disappeared, its only that simple
and yes i know it was BSM naruto 

if he protected himself just how he ddi against the beam, then he wouldve taken the blow, 



> Let me also go further and put this into some basic perceptive for you. If explosion A goes off and hits you dead in the face resulting in the explosion knocking you unconscious . AND then explosion B is blocked with your arms but you could still continue to fight after then you might just have a point. But what happened here , is one instance the explosion hits the individual and they put up a guard with his arms being completely Burned off as a result (but his actual body isn't harmed) and in the other the individual is unable to put up a guard but is reduced to nothing by the explosion. The second explosion is still far more powerful. What stopped Naruto from taking damage from the juubi laser is the Durabilty of his chakra tails. *You do realize his chakra tails and body were destroyed all together by the body slam right* ?



naruto wasnt able to protect himself since juubito restrained him prior to drop slamming them, 
to make it simpler, if i protect my head (which is the main thing enabling the avatar), from an oncoming attack using my arms, and tails, then the amount of damage taken in on the head would be bare minimal, 

the same happened to the jjuubi beam, narutos protected his body with his tails to take an attack whilst the drop slam was directly on his head, 
the kurama avatars head would probably be the least durable part oof his body whilst his tails are most likely the most duurable, so your analysis is invalid here, 

the drop slam never breached through the tails, naruto was hit on his head, avatars body was breached and since he himself was affected, the tails disappearing was a result of that, 

your analysis makes no sense, 
just because narutos avatar was breaced from a direct hit on the core, doesnt automatically mean that the same attack would breach naruto when he is completely surrounding himself with his tails, 
the same goes for  the juubi beam, the avatars tails were completely shrugged off from the blow, a direct hit and naruto gets wrecked since his body is entirely exposed to the attack 

then theres the fact that Juubi beam >> 9 TBB, and the force equivalent to 2 TBB peeled off the left side of the avatars face and body,


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

@argus it was 13 susanoo enhanced BD 
not 9. 

that same force equivalent of 2 TBB also ripped naruto avatar equally. so what is your point


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## sabre320 (Mar 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i had no idea the silly cursed seal susanoo could swing mountain ranges and slice them in half
> hmmm...how could i have missed that
> if u mean defensively again PS lost to kaguya who makes obito look like a speck of dust
> so how exactly does PS have less impressive feats?
> ...



Ya i agree ps has greater aoe and why in gods name are you comparing rikudo sasukes ps to ems sasukes ps

and you are trying so hard to dance around the issue its amusing rikudo naruto in humanoid form without the avatar tanked kaguyas chakra arm attack  while the same attack pulverized rikudo sasukes ps you would agree that avatar ismore durable then the humanoid chakra cloak no? so right there is a feat that disproves that the durability of the avatars is remotely the same...

the same avatar also tanked hits from bijuu enhanced sasukes pshmmm....

I just showed you that juubitos chakra arms possesss massive focused strength far above shinsensenjus or bijudama the hokage barrier tanked juubis super bijudama easily yet juubito while in a weaker form using less advanced chakra arms casually tore through the hokage barrier then juubito got stronger and gained control over his power and using guodama enhanced chakra arms slammed the duo with all his might into the ground this strength is so above shinsensenju its not even funny shinsensenju or kyuubi sussano cannot even dream of producing the strength or firepower to match the juubis greatest attack or to break the hokage barrier yet the duo faced the strength greater then the one that did exactly that......you are going on size alone if you use your argument then i suppose shinsensenjus barrage and bijudama are greater then night gai and evening elephant barrage no?

Are you joking right now why are u ignoring that naruto has 8 other tails they are as strong as the one that blocked ps sword swing naruto at that point did not produce one offensive action was only defending while sasuke used ps sword swing its main arsenal....the 8 tails can be used to restrain massive targets like the bijuu whats so hard to understand? Sasuke was voicing massive frustration through out the fight yelling why wont you stay down..damn you why wont you be a good boy and die...he used the bijuus power to kill naruto why would he use them if he wanted to spar?

You once again danced around the issue say naruto uses biju yoton rasenshuriken against ps chidori what then?

and you once again danced around the issue of the bijudama rasenshuriken?Is sasukegoing to match it with ps chidori and what firepower does ps possess thats remotely comparable???


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ya i agree ps has greater aoe and why in gods name are you comparing rikudo sasukes ps to ems sasukes ps
> 
> and you are trying so hard to dance around the issue its amusing rikudo naruto in humanoid form without the avatar tanked kaguyas chakra arm attack  while the same attack pulverized rikudo sasukes ps you would agree that avatar ismore durable then the humanoid chakra cloak no? so right there is a feat that disproves that the durability of the avatars is remotely the same...
> 
> ...



i certainly agree that sasuke without 9 bijuu enhancements would be much weaker than naruto with the power of 9 bijuu+so6p senjutsu. yh certainly 

this is naruto with just kyuubi we are talkign abotu right 

and sasuke pS tanked hits from naruto didnt he?

u forget that naruto only performed better against kaguya because he had the chakra of 9 bijuu in him+ what so6p gave him. while sasuke had a rookie rinnengan with no bijuu boost. 

what you want to go on forgetting here, is this is naruto with just kyuubi vs sasuke with EMS. no way in hell would naruto be much stronger. 

any wind base attack from naruto turns into enton. i am not saying enton does anyting to naruto. what i am saying is FRS based attacks will do nothign to sasuke

hahahah bijuudama FRS is something only so6p senjutus naruto can do. 

nice try though. why didnt naruto try that against juubito. would surely have been a useful thing to do wont u say?


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## ARGUS (Mar 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @argus it was 13 susanoo enhanced BD
> not 9.



Im talking about the juubi beam, not chojo kobetsu
it went through 9 TBB, (5 from kurama  and 4 from hachibi) 



> that same force equivalent of 2 TBB also ripped naruto avatar equally. so what is your point



I know, and i have specified that as well, 
the point again, is that just from bracing himself, naruto  was able to tank an attack that shat on 9 TBB, yet when his avatars body was hit directly within the epicentre of an attack only compared to 2 TBB, he and sasukes PS had half of their face and their left sides shrugged off,


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 27, 2015)

Those 9 TBB shouldn't be compared to regular Bijuudama's considering the amount of chakra used for the Bijuudamas were dispersed over a couple of Bijuudamas. Not saying you claimed that, just wanted to point that out just in case.


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## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

@narutoX28
Those 9 BD are standard 9 BD
Panel stating each are weaker than an individual BD 

@argus thanks man you got solid points there . Naruto braced himself so he survived the juubi beam


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## Almondsand (Apr 1, 2015)

Totsuka. GG.

Itachi solos.


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