# Strongest verse Star Wars can take without the Force?



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2012)

Marka Ragnos is being a dick so he decides to shut off The Force. This means no Force powers, artifacts, weapons, or technology that rely on it can be used. What's the strongest fiction SWverse can beat with this restriction?


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

No Infinite Empire either apparently. 

They still have the Celestials though.


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## Ulti (Mar 21, 2012)

Do Bedlam Spirits use the force?


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

Unlikely, but they don't have Swag on Luke's scale.


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## Ulti (Mar 21, 2012)

Luke's swag>The Force?


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

Naturally, Ulti.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

how about Star Ocean


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## Ulti (Mar 21, 2012)

The Enforcers from Star Ocean might be too much for Star Wars military and Force users...without the force but Bedlam Spirits should be able to deal with them

(no idea how powerful the Celestials are)


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## SpaceMook (Mar 21, 2012)

Is the Sun Crusher usable?


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

Sun Crusher is pure tech, so yeah it is.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> The Enforcers from Star Ocean might be too much for Star Wars military and Force users...without the force but Bedlam Spirits should be able to deal with them
> 
> (no idea how powerful the Celestials are)



Star Wars still has shit like the Sun Crusher though, plus Centerpoint Station


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## Ulti (Mar 21, 2012)

tbh I forgot about the Sun Crusher etc:

Not sure, I think they could edge out a win against Star Ocean bar anything I might be forgetting.


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## teddy (Mar 21, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Star Wars still has shit like the Sun Crusher though, plus Centerpoint Station



Is that the place with the blackholes?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm not sure Centerpoint would be allowed since it was apparently built using the Force.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

?aby said:


> Is that the place with the blackholes?


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## cacomixl (Mar 21, 2012)

realistically, only herald+ level force users and/or massive psis would be missed, imo. Ground forces should rarely matter, with or without force users.


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## teddy (Mar 21, 2012)

I must've been thinking about the Maw Cluster then.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I'm not sure Centerpoint would be allowed since it was apparently built using the Force.



haven't read the latest novels yet, so I don't really know if it uses the Force or is fueled by it in order for it to do the shit it does  

if yes, probably banned from the thread


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

>Death Star
>Sun Crusher
>Galaxy Gun
>Star/Sun Razer
>Star Forge
>Centerpoint Station
>World Devastators
>Star Destroyers in general
>Infinity Wave

Any other superweapons/tech I'm missing?


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## cacomixl (Mar 21, 2012)

yeah, built using the force & actively relying on force are two separate things. If something is just in the first category, I think it would still be allowed.


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

Centerpoint Station was built partially by using the Force but its a purely technological super weapon, so I don't see why it would be banned. That said the latest spoilers have:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Abeloth being the Celestial incarnation of Chaos itself in SW.


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



What's this I keep hearing about The Ones being involved with the building of Centerpoint station? This is aside from Abeloth formerly being a One herself as The Mother. Where do the Celestials come in?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >Death Star
> >Sun Crusher
> >Galaxy Gun
> >Star/Sun Razer
> ...



there's also the Silentium, mein square


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm assuming that you're talking about the star shaped sentient droid race 

The Abominor included


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

yep, those guys


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

Aaaaalmost forgot mein square


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Never heard of Abeloth being called a ONE, some have claimed she's a member of the Celestial race but the Celestials are supposedly just mortals who become immortal/fully master the Force and transcend the material universe.

Hell Jacen states he didn't want to become one when confronted at the Pool of Knowledge, because then he would be essentially omniscient.




Also mein circle, no Sith Meditation Sphere/Corsair (Sadow's).


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 21, 2012)

even without the Force, you still don't fuck with Star Wars


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## SpaceMook (Mar 21, 2012)

Would a single SSD be sufficient enough to take on the Mass Effect verse?


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Going by the spoilers around the internet, she's formerly a One herself until she was corrupted via the Pool of Knowledge and the Font of Power, which is why they decided to exile her to the planet and jumped ship to Mortis. But until I read the series for myself, I can't really say other than just from what her profile says on Wookieepedia.




Corsairs included? Anything devastating other than nuking suns via the Force and mass illusions via Battle Meditation?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 21, 2012)

If the Bedlam Spirits are allowed to stay they can beat Lexx. Mantrid is a universe buster and multiversal threat, but he doesn't actually have a way to fight incorporeal reality warpers.

Going purely by tech... Metroid is a safe bet. I was considering Gunbuster/Diebuster as well, but that's probably out of their league even with sheer numbers and liberal use of superweapons.



SpaceMook said:


> Would a single SSD be sufficient enough to take on the Mass Effect verse?



A single SSD would slaughter Mass Effect. Apparently a Reaper's main gun doesn't even reach into the megaton range. There are a few things that might be able to destroy it, but in terms of normal fleets and such a _regular_ Star Destroyer could easily solo Mass Effect.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 21, 2012)

Moon drops, super weapons that can send planetary debris at FTL speeds after vaporising them, Suncrusher, tons of ships and other stuff. Banning of Force and force artifacts(which require the force in some cases like Naga's starbuster) still require a strong Science fiction verse to beat SWs.


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

SpaceMook said:


> Would a single SSD be sufficient enough to take on the Mass Effect verse?



A Venator class Destroyer can output thousands of teratons in firepower and survive petaton firepower in terms of shield in hours of combat (for defense). I think a SSD would be a roflstomp.



Darth Nihilus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Going by the spoilers around the internet, she's formerly a One herself until she was corrupted via the Pool of Knowledge and the Font of Power, which is why they decided to exile her to the planet and jumped ship to Mortis. But until I read the series for myself, I can't really say other than just from what her profile says on Wookieepedia.



Link of this rumor?


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 21, 2012)

Aside from the usual Wookieepedia link - 



Or the interview with Troy Denning - 

There's more, but the interview itself should be enough to tell you what you want to know


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## SpaceMook (Mar 21, 2012)

I'll say the Macross verse, the kill to death ratio is going to be insane in fleet engagements though.


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

Didn't it take an entire Zentradi fleet an entire day just to slag the Earth?


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## SpaceMook (Mar 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Didn't it take an entire Zentradi fleet an entire day just to slag the Earth?



Around 4 million ships if I remember correctly.


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## Es (Mar 21, 2012)

SW also has the Shawken Device, although it's only a possible universe destroyer


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2012)

SpaceMook said:


> Around 4 million ships if I remember correctly.


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## Surtur (Mar 21, 2012)

cacomixl said:


> realistically, only herald+ level force users and/or massive psis would be missed, imo. Ground forces should rarely matter, with or without force users.



Wait, there are herald level force users?  As in, can dive into suns unharmed, destroy planets, survive black holes, etc. those types of heralds?

The only one that comes to mind to me would be Nihilus, and besides sucking the life out of entire worlds, I'm not really sure what other impressive feats he has.


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## GoneDumbSEED (Mar 21, 2012)

SpaceMook said:


> I'll say the Macross verse, the kill to death ratio is going to be insane in fleet engagements though.



They have Protodevlins and the Vajra. The former are galaxy killers and considerable universal threat. The latter? Well... lets just say even the Protodevlins don't want to have anything to do with them... 



Fang said:


> Didn't it take an entire Zentradi fleet an entire day just to slag the Earth?



More like one second. In the novel, Hikaru described it as "a blink". But that didn't stop the Zentradi from dicking around, beating on a dead horse. 

Misa also mentioned that Breetai's own battalion would have been more than enough to overwhelm the entire system. 

In the novelization, Baldooza deliberately committed his four million ships as a show of force and a psychological offensive against the denizens of Macross whom he considered to have greatly affronted him. The Macross was forced to watch and suffer the agony.

Baldooza mentioned his battle station alone would rip the Solar System a new one when confronted with the option by his divisional commanders, but wanted to prove to the humans that even _sticks and stones will still be more than sufficient_ to secure a Zent victory. Thus, he deliberately lowered weapon settings... and the rest is history. Of course, his ego got him killed, but thats another story. 

If you want a comparison, when the Zents actually do get serious, it took a dozen Zentradi vessels to slag a planet in about... 2 ~ 3 minutes. 

- Tak


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## Endless Mike (Mar 27, 2012)

cacomixl said:


> yeah, built using the force & actively relying on force are two separate things. If something is just in the first category, I think it would still be allowed.



Things that were built with the help of the Force but don't use it to function are allowed, as long as it would theoretically be possible to build them without the Force using SW tech.



Tranquil Fury said:


> super weapons that can send planetary debris at FTL speeds after vaporising them



I assume you're talking about the quote from the Death Star novel that talked about some of the debris of Alderaan being boosted into hyperspace, right?



Es said:


> SW also has the Shawken Device, although it's only a possible universe destroyer



Aw come on, that thing is nonsensical and would have never worked. I'd buy Cell's claim of being a solar system buster before I'd believe this contraption could do what its creator claimed.



Surtur said:


> Wait, there are herald level force users?  As in, can dive into suns unharmed



Well no, unless you count astral form.



> destroy planets,



Yes. Via supernova induction.



> survive black holes



Astral form should be able to



> etc. those types of heralds?



Well not like a PC user but they have some Herald level powers



> The only one that comes to mind to me would be Nihilus, and besides sucking the life out of entire worlds, I'm not really sure what other impressive feats he has.



Well one was carrying his entire fleet at FTL speeds with telekinesis.

Lord Vitiate, Reborn Palpatine, and Kueller could also do the whole planetary lifesucking/soulfucking trick (in fact Vitiate's version was stronger than Nihilus'), Palpatine's Force Storms could be cast from anywhere in the galaxy, devour entire fleets, and teleport targets anywhere else in the galaxy, Luke was able to control the minds of many powerful Force Users from all over the galaxy at once, the Darkstaff which was a powerful Dark Side artifact was able to transport an entire star system 10 years into the future, the Infant of Shaa was an artifact that could use the Force to blow up a planet, the Sith Corsair used a crystal thing that could cause multiple stars to supernova at once, etc. TWF I'm sure can fill you in on more feats.


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## EpicBroFist (Mar 27, 2012)

How would Halo fair against a force-less SW?


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## Lord Stark (Mar 27, 2012)

I guess Halo...?



EpicBroFist said:


> How would Halo fair against a force-less SW?



That's what I am thinking...maybe


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## Xiammes (Mar 27, 2012)

> How would Halo fair against a force-less SW?



Don't know, do we ban Halo rings too, since the Forerunners can jump into another universe/dimension/shield world and pick off any unlucky survivors.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 27, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Don't know, do we ban Halo rings too, since the Forerunners can jump into another universe/dimension/shield world and pick off any unlucky survivors.



The Star Wars Galaxy is large enough that even the Halo Arrays would only destroy about a quarter of their Galaxy.  All the Arrays would succeed in doing is simultaneously wiping out a huge part of their population.
Then again they did have these...
Link removed


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

So the Star Wars Galaxy is 4 times the size of the milky way? Also they can make more Arrays, Bungies fascination with the number 7 is just how many active need to wipe out all life in the Galaxy. 

Also yeah they build big ass ships, and they built the Arc which is around 4 times the size of the earth, and they have a "super" Arc which is powered by a star inside of it.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

What does that do to the Bedlam spirits and Silentium?


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

Don't know, but if they aren't organic life, then they should be passed over by the Halo arrays. Then anything that Survives is going to have to deal with the entire fleet of the Forerunners, which can generate the energy to destroy stars.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Bedlam Spirits could send them back in time or warp reality


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

In what way? We have a fleet numbering in millions if not billions, then we have all the other races Halo has, which include San 'Shyuum and first humans, who were near the same level as the Forerunners. Then we have the Flood, which would be on an even higher level then Forerunners.

Then we have precursor tech which are leaps and bounds above anything shown, the ones the Forerunners worshiped as gods. Of course they really can't be used since we know less about them then we do anything else.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Go back in time and prevent the weapons from being used, or prevent their technology from being built


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

How are they gonna stop it exactly? Go back and time and kill all the little reptiles that become forerunners or humans? Also how far would they know to go back in time, or is that a problem that fixes itself with magic.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Well considering they can warp time and space basically at will I don't see it being much of a problem.


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

Still doesn't mean they know an exact time, unless they are just gonna flee and search for the exact time.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Well they effectively have infinite time to find out, due to their time control


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

I guess so, Forerunners can travel dimensions, but I don't think they can time travel.


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Covenant and UNSC would get cradle-stomped by the Old Republic, or even the old Mandalorian Crusaders much less the Empire at its height, even without Force-Users/factions ie Emperor's Hands, Eyes, Prophets of the Dark Side, Inquisitorus, Dark Jedi, Sith Assassins, etc...

The industrial complex of the Empire is essentially an entire galaxy, the feat of building the first Death Star alone is equivalent to building over 24 million mile long Star Destroyers, the Stormtrooper Corps like numbers in the trillions just from the legions attached to the Fleet, planetary theater shields capable of holding back the Death Star's superlaser for 1/10th or so of a second is ridiculous (Alderaan has a planetary shield that's shown for a fraction of a second flashing up when the Death Star's superlaser hits it), etc...

As for the Forerunners, Celestials would stomp them. These guys became so advanced, they were capable of leaving the material universe behind and proceeding to a higher level of reality, existence, whatever you want to call it. Their technological high points still exist more then 30-40,000 years after they stopped caring about the galaxy;

- unnamed star system busting station (nick named the Cosmic Turbine)

- Centerpoint Station; almost three times larger then the first Death Star) is capable of moving entire stars and planets through hyperspace, its range is the entire galaxy and it can be used as en effective weapon creating repulsor based blasts hundreds if not thousands of kilometers in width that can cause stars to go supernova, destroy planets, wipe out entire fleets; Hell they've moved entire star systems through it

- built the Maw star system; which is populated by neutron stars, and black holes, and other gravitational anomalies or phenomenons, all on a true scale to their natural counter parts 

- Jacen Solo refused to drink from the Fountain of Knowledge because it would literally make him omniscient like an actual Celestial

- some engineering tech left over on Kessel almost ripped the moon apart 

- built the entire Corellian star system; the planets even have scaled to their size replusor engines


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Forerunners are likely countered by the Celestials:

Just some information these guys have literally built entire star systems, artifical planets, actual stars and black holes, seemingly reached the zenieth of knowledge when it came to both technology and the Force that they left the material plane/reality to exist in the Force itself, and are seemingly literally infered to be omniscient

The latter can actually be accepted given that Jerec and Kyle touching just a minor fraction of the Valley of the Jedi's power made them transcend the boundaries of powers of mortals; to quote Rahm, "inducing supernovas would be a mere thought to them", and Jacen Solo refused to drink from the Fountain of Knowledge because he would turn essentially into a Celestial with omniscience granted to him

There's also the Cosmic Turbine which blew up an entire star system and the fact that they were capable of creating a sort of energy barrier or shield around the entire galaxy to prevent beings from leaving it via hyperspace and doing the same dividing the galaxy in half

Celestials are nuts, their tech still works fine 30/40,000 years after they left the material universe for that higher plane of existence


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the Valley of the Jedi had nothing to do with the Celestials, it was created by the Thought Bomb of Lord Kaan and the fight with Darth Bane, unless that's been retconned.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 28, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Star Wars still has shit like the Sun Crusher though, plus Centerpoint Station



The best Star Ocean has is Gabriel/Indalecio with the Crest of Annihilation. Essentially being able to create the Big Crunch.



Without that, not so sure.


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

> Forerunners are likely countered by the Celestials



Ok but what is countering Precursors?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

You would actually have to post their capabilities and feats first


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## Xiammes (Mar 28, 2012)

Its a joke, all precursor tech was destroyed when the Halo arrays went off, since they were based on Neural physics. All their tech was nearly indestructible, nothing the Forerunners did would destroy it. They built unbending bridges to connect planets and even solar systems. They were also capable of creating life and speeding up evolution.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

So Force-less SW beats Halo then. What's next?


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm pretty sure the Valley of the Jedi had nothing to do with the Celestials, it was created by the Thought Bomb of Lord Kaan and the fight with Darth Bane, unless that's been retconned.



I know that but the point is even when being amped with a fraction of the Valley of the Jedi's power, Jerec and Katarn are nothing compared to what the Celestials themselves are apparently. 

Also Abeloth is apparently a member of the Ones, who were part of the Celestials. The Son and Daughter apparently sealed off the Force from the Killicks after giving it to them hundreds of thousands of years ago to construct Centerpoint Station, Sinkhole Station, and the Maw system to seal Abeloth.

This was a cycle that continued for tens of thousands of years because whenever the flow of time is disturbed, such as Jacen/Caedus and Luke's manipulation of long-range precognition to try and stop certain visions and possible futures of happening, Abeloth would return.

She is apparently the harbinger of destruction and a Celestial.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Interesting information.


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

What it requires to beat Abeloth:

1: destroy every single body she's taken and all of her avatars all over the galaxy
2: the fact that she tied into the majority of her essence to between divided equally between her physical bodies/avatars and her Force essence in that dimension she created
3: Luke destroying her at the same time all her avatars were destroyed
4: Luke still nearly died and this is with Darth Krappy's help


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 28, 2012)

"The Ones are what the Celestials become" 

troydenningwithchips.gif

Oh, mein square


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Fang said:


> What it requires to beat Abeloth:
> 
> 1: destroy every single body she's taken and all of her avatars all over the galaxy
> 2: the fact that she tied into the majority of her essence to between divided equally between her physical bodies/avatars and her Force essence in that dimension she created
> ...



Seems like she has some hax defense, although from what I hear her offensive feats are not that great compared to some other Force users.

Anyway we should discuss this somewhere else since this thread is about Force-less SW.


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

I heard Krayt got the shit kicked out of him 

Either way, Celestials are nuts technologically speaking.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah but still not Culture, Xeelee, or Time Lord level.


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 28, 2012)

Force-less? 

How about dem Yuuzhan Vong


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

They're perfectly valid here


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 28, 2012)




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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Yeah but still not Culture, Xeelee, or Time Lord level.



Yeah but by Star Wars or 40K standards, their nuts.

- star system destroying weapons
- capacity to isolate an entire galaxy
- capacity to influence dimensional/FTL travel (they also bisected the GFFA galaxy midway by erecting barriers in it)
- capacity control other races with the Force/technology
- live hundreds of thousands of year
- exist/moved onto a higher plane of existence

Their what was it, the Culture or Xelee's equivalent to the Sublime.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

By "isolate" do you mean that thing about hyperspace travel being impossible or more difficult outside of the galaxy? I heard the Outbound Flight project was sabotaged or something.

Subliming is from Cultureverse


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

By isolate I mean literally they confirmed recently that the Celestials placed the barrier around the galaxy itself so that its impossible to leave it directly via hyperspace while still within the GFFA and this:



> [Speculation holds that the Celestials had crafted the hyperspace anomalies that bisected the galaxy in order to separate and isolate the influence of the predatory creature.[4] Some hypotheses over the hyperspace turbulence in the Unknown Regions also claimed that it was created to serve as a barrier between the Celestials and the upstart Rakata.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Why didn't they just own the Rakata?


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Who knows: they apparently frightened the shit out of the Sharu and the Columi, used the Killiks as slave labor, and the Mnng-mnng claimed that it isolated and manipulated species like humans, Drall, and Selonians for their own purposes.

They existed for almost 70,000+ years and did whatever the fuck they wanted apparently, were practically omniscient.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Anyway what verse do you think would be a decent challenge under these conditions?


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Dunno.

Do you mean specifically verse of just a faction like the entirety of Warhammer 40,000 or just the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, Terrans from StarCraft, etc...?


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 28, 2012)

SW:Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor said:
			
		

> The translucent clouds that had drifted through the  simulation thickened as though they could become actually tangible. * “These represent our best long-range scans of the debris field from the  destruction of Taspan II. The Big Crush, as it is called, resulted from  an accident at an Imperial testing facility for a new type of  gravity-well projector. The planet was entirely pulverized, producing  debris that ranges from pinhole micrometeors to asteroids several  kilometers in diameter. This occurred only four Standard years ago; the  debris has not yet settled into stable orbits. Worse, the planets were  in conjunction at the time of the Big Crush, and Mindor was the inner  planet of the two. So as the chunks of Taspan II spiral inward toward  the star, Mindor’s own gravity has captured great masses of them into  eccentric, unstable orbits around itself.”*



Almost forgot about this one


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Fang said:


> Dunno.
> 
> Do you mean specifically verse of just a faction like the entirety of Warhammer 40,000 or just the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, Terrans from StarCraft, etc...?



It could be a faction or an entire universe


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 28, 2012)

Also 


*Spoiler*: _SW: Republic #36_


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> It could be a faction or an entire universe



Well above Star Trek for certain.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

That's interesting, as the odds of randomly hitting a star, planet, or black hole in space are really really low, so perhaps without a plotted course ships in hyperspace are naturally attracted to gravity wells?


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

I don't think its so low otherwise remember Han's comments to Luke on the Falcon in Episode IV?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah but it's likely he was just trying to impress him, space is really very empty.


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## Fang (Mar 28, 2012)

Since multiple mods have delightfully decided to ignore my Abeloth/Fate of the Jedi thread for approval in the meta-battledome I'm going to continue it here as its related by topic alone.


*Spoiler*: _The Ones, the Celestials, and Abeloth Connections_ 





			
				Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse pdf said:
			
		

> ?Then you must hope your friends fail, or they will die,? Thuruht said. ?You will understand, when the time is right.?
> 
> ?And the time will be right after I share the Force with the hive?? Raynar asked, trying to get Thuruht to at least name her terms.
> 
> ...





> But that did nothing to explain Abeloth. Finally, Raynar turned back to Thuruht. ?It?s not just Jedi Lowbacca who doesn?t see. I don?t, either.?
> 
> ?Because you look only for what is in the stone,? Thuruht replied. ?To find Abeloth, you must see what is missing.?
> 
> ...





> Using both left pincers to wave the Jedi after her, the Killik descended the corridor through several archways to another series of reliefs. The first depicted a jungle
> paradise, with a small clearing in the bottom of a shallow gorge that emptied into a vast swamp. In the center of the clearing was an erupting geyser, and in the vapor
> cloud above it floated three ghostly figures, so insubstantial it seemed their limbs had not yet finished coalescing.
> 
> ...





> ?Become?? Raynar asked.
> 
> He thought back to the scene that showed the Ones coalescing out of the Font of Power.
> 
> ...





> ?There?s no need to apologize,? Raynar said.
> 
> ?But we have seen enough about the Celestials for now. Take us to the panels showing the history of Abeloth.?
> 
> ...


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## Es (Mar 29, 2012)

You need approval for it?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 29, 2012)

meta-threads need approval


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## Darth Nihilus (Mar 29, 2012)

You're surprised?


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## Fang (Mar 29, 2012)

Es said:


> You need approval for it?



Mods being mods. Anyway Abeloth can cause volcanic eruptions and planetary scale high level earthquakes on Coruscant without needing to turn someone into a bomb of Force energy. These go from the very foundations of the city-scape to the main levels of the planet hundreds if not thousands of kilometers above the actual terminal surface.

Also Abeloth turned an entire world's population with illusion to fearing they were dying of an imaginary plague so she could feed off their fear with the dark side. And an avatar of herself against Luke, Jaina, and Corran was pressuring them while the Sith were fighting the Jedi inside of the new Jedi Temple.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 29, 2012)

Back to the topic at hand, what about some of the lower-tier Doctor Who races, like the Cybermen or Sontarans?


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## Fang (Mar 29, 2012)

Aren't the Cybermen jokes in the Who verse even I know, by their own lofty standard without bringing in the Daleks or Time Lords?

Celestials would crush the Cybermen.

Who are the Sonatarans?


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## Shoddragon (Mar 30, 2012)

Fang said:


> Aren't the Cybermen jokes in the Who verse even I know, by their own lofty standard without bringing in the Daleks or Time Lords?
> 
> Celestials would crush the Cybermen.
> 
> Who are the Sonatarans?



 a species that reproduces via cloning.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 30, 2012)

They churn out about a million clones every four minutes IIRC. They are somewhat lacking in firepower though.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 30, 2012)

the sontarans were researching star busting weapons I think to combat the rutans some time in the future but I'm not sure if that ever got off the ground completely.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 30, 2012)

Yeah, IIRC they only researched it. They do have limited time travel though.


I'd back Star Wars, unless we're going by some of the bullshit low troop numbers given by some sources.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 30, 2012)

bullshit low troop numbers? at a minimum there should be trillions of storm troopers, no? I mean the emperor had a hold over the entire fucking galaxy.

I don't think there is any evidence flat out that would give us trillions of sontarans, maybe billions via total conversion of planets like earth tho.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 30, 2012)

Logically yes, but for a while the canon number of clone troopers in a three year galaxy spanning war was stated to be 3 million.


I have no idea if this is still considered canon, but I fucking hope it's considered non-canon.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 30, 2012)

In one of the Doctor Who novels it's apparently stated that any Sontaran/Rutan ship larger than a scout can shoot through a planet to hit ships on the other side. Odds are they'd beat Star Wars when it comes purely to tech, but they can't fight the Bedlam Spirits.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 30, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> In one of the Doctor Who novels it's apparently stated that any Sontaran/Rutan ship larger than a scout can shoot through a planet to hit ships on the other side. Odds are they'd beat Star Wars when it comes purely to tech, but they can't fight the Bedlam Spirits.



Huh. I had heard that the Rutans developing a planet buster was a major game changer in the war.


Still, it's true about the Bedlam Spirits.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 30, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Huh. I had heard that the Rutans developing a planet buster was a major game changer in the war.
> 
> 
> Still, it's true about the Bedlam Spirits.



The Sontaran/Rutan war has been going on for 50,000 years, so that might have come before the planet piercing ship weaponry. Even if it didn't, shooting a hole through a planet isn't nearly as impressive as outright destroying it.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 30, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The Sontaran/Rutan war has been going on for 50,000 years, so that might have come before the planet piercing ship weaponry. Even if it didn't, shooting a hole through a planet isn't nearly as impressive as outright destroying it.



True. I had just read that the sun buster research came after the planet buster and I thought that was generally thought of as their highest tech.


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## Fang (Mar 30, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> In one of the Doctor Who novels it's apparently stated that any Sontaran/Rutan ship larger than a scout can shoot through a planet to hit ships on the other side. Odds are they'd beat Star Wars when it comes purely to tech, but they can't fight the Bedlam Spirits.



Celestials would beat them with tech pretty handily if that's the highest of tech level in terms of WMD.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 30, 2012)

Fang said:


> Celestials would beat them with tech pretty handily if that's the highest of tech level in terms of WMD.



Was thinking more of the Empire/Vong/etc. with that statement. Dunno too much about the Celestials, except for Centerpoint, but if they can mass produce stuff like that then sure, they'd probably win.


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## Fang (Mar 30, 2012)

Celestials are Star Wars equivalent of the Precursors or Forerunners.

Apparently they aren't even comprehensible to mortal beings and are by description, the Sublime of Star Wars.

But yeah Centerpoint Station, building entire star systems, manipulated the galaxy so that half of it was effectively linearlly blocked off from normal hyperdrive travel, created stars and black holes, influenced the evolution or development of other races and apparently existed over for at least a million years.

The rise of the Rakatan Infinite Empire and the old Republic was like 30,000 years after they disappeared.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 30, 2012)

Fang said:


> Aren't the Cybermen jokes in the Who verse even I know, by their own lofty standard without bringing in the Daleks or Time Lords?
> 
> Celestials would crush the Cybermen.
> 
> Who are the Sonatarans?



Well there are two races of Cybermen (it's possible but unconfirmed that they might have merged into one though), as for their tech I recall they were able to mass-produce planetbusting bombs at one point but I'm not sure otherwise. They should also have time travel which is standard for DW races.

As for the Sontarans:






Eldritch Sukima said:


> The Sontaran/Rutan war has been going on for 50,000 years, so that might have come before the planet piercing ship weaponry. Even if it didn't, shooting a hole through a planet isn't nearly as impressive as outright destroying it.



Wasn't it also stated in the 2-parter with the 10th Doctor that the single Sontaran ship could have destroyed the Earth?



Fang said:


> Celestials would beat them with tech pretty handily if that's the highest of tech level in terms of WMD.



You forgot their time travel, unlike Star Trek races for example pretty much every advanced race in Whoverse has completely workable, spammable time travel and time weapons.

You'd need the Bedlam Spirits to counter that.


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## Es (Mar 31, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> You're surprised?



Disgusted is more like it


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## Fang (Mar 31, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> You'd need the Bedlam Spirits to counter that.



Your links say the Sonatarans have very limited and primitive time travel technology and the Ossmic thingy is limited by range or something. What is the greatest capacity in time they've gone back in?

Celestials are older then a million years, so are the Ones, for examples. Hell the Celestials apparently left the material plane according to the Killiks which Raynar (who becomes the Joiner King again lol) verifies. 

I don't think with the clone guys the Bedlam Spirits are required to beat them.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 31, 2012)

They hardly ever use their time travel as well.


I think they've only ever gone forward in time, then back to the "present."


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## Shoddragon (Mar 31, 2012)

most doctor who races have very limited and kinda wonky time travel ( such as emergency temporal shifts) although some of the more advanced humans in the future in the form of time agents have time travel that is pretty decent.

generally everyone and their grandmother chases after the timelords to get access to their TARDIS technology even in the newer seasons because it's so good :I.

Also if I recall correctly, Endless Mike is referring to the Cyberman from Mondas and the Cybermen from Pete's earth (well... the parallel universe where Pete lived) or something along those lines. I think they did in fact wind up mixing in the current who-verse.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 31, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Wasn't it also stated in the 2-parter with the 10th Doctor that the single Sontaran ship could have destroyed the Earth?



Not a hundred percent sure on that, as I don't recall whether the wording leaned more towards planet busting or life wiping. I do remember the Doctor stating that nukes wouldn't even scratch the surface of the Sontaran ship, though, and we know from World War Three that Whoverse Earth has a nuclear arsenal capable of turning the planet's surface into molten slag, so planet killing firepower doesn't cut it against a Sontaran battleship.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 31, 2012)

Actually with Z-Bombs they can downright planetbust so a Sontaran battleship can take at least around the order of 1e32j without harm. The Sontarans can't replicate a TARDIS but they have some access to the basic principles behind one.


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## Velocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Yeah, there's basically no way Star Wars has a hope in hell against the Doctor Who 'verse without the Force. Even with the Force, they'd still have the odds heavily stacked against them.

Remember when the Master rewrote the biological code of the entire population of Earth so that they became him? Or the bomb Davros had made (that would have destroyed not just the Universe, but every parallel universe and alternate dimension as well) that was kept slightly out of time synch with the rest of the Universe, thus preventing anyone except a time traveller from stopping them?

I'm pretty sure the TARDIS solos, though. Nothing in the Star Wars universe could actually damage it and, if it can move planets with its tractor beam, nothing really stops it from dragging entire fleets of ships into black holes and suns and whatever else it feels like dragging them into - and that thing is an antique compared to the TARDIS' that every other Time Lord used.

So you'll have to go a lot lower than Doctor Who.


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## Fang (Mar 31, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Not a hundred percent sure on that, as I don't recall whether the wording leaned more towards planet busting or life wiping. I do remember the Doctor stating that nukes wouldn't even scratch the surface of the Sontaran ship, though, and we know from World War Three that Whoverse Earth has a nuclear arsenal capable of turning the planet's surface into molten slag, so planet killing firepower doesn't cut it against a Sontaran battleship.



That's not really helpful unless you have specific information regarding what they considered "slagging" a world to be. Just irradiating the surface and razing the land? Or melting down continental crust by 2-3 meters would be completely different scenario in destroying the surface of a planet even if their both "melting" a world's surface.



Velocity said:


> So you'll have to go a lot lower than Doctor Who.



Don't care, the Cybermen and Sonatarans aren't really cutting it regardless.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 31, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Yeah, there's basically no way Star Wars has a hope in hell against the Doctor Who 'verse without the Force. Even with the Force, they'd still have the odds heavily stacked against them.
> 
> Remember when the Master rewrote the biological code of the entire population of Earth so that they became him? Or the bomb Davros had made (that would have destroyed not just the Universe, but every parallel universe and alternate dimension as well) that was kept slightly out of time synch with the rest of the Universe, thus preventing anyone except a time traveller from stopping them?
> 
> ...



noone is trying to argue that star wars can take on the doctor who verse. I think it's pretty established here that doctor who as a whole verse is way above star wars.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Fang said:


> That's not really helpful unless you have specific information regarding what they considered "slagging" a world to be. Just irradiating the surface and razing the land? Or melting down continental crust by 2-3 meters would be completely different scenario in destroying the surface of a planet even if their both "melting" a world's surface.



Like I said, Z-bombs, which they had back in the 80s, could downright planetbust, as in mass scatter the Earth, and the Osterhagen Project could do the same thing. This is all Earth technology.


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