# Current Sasuke ch596 vs Cloud Strife



## FrozenFeathers (Oct 17, 2014)

*Current Sasuke ch696 vs Cloud Strife*

Advent Children Cloud, about to fight Sephiroth.
Sasuke at the end chapter 696.
Cloud gets BahamutFURY, cure, ultima, fire, lightning, materia only.
Both have standard knowledge.
Restrictions: Sasuke cannot use genjutsu, and cannot use Rinnegan techniques HE HAS NOT DISPLAYED.

Mindset: In character
Battlefield: Shinra ruins.
Powerscalingse powerscaling from Crisis Core.
Speed: Use calcs for both sides.


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## Adamant soul (Oct 17, 2014)

And you are restricting the weaker character because why? 
Cloud doesn't need materia to stomp Sasuke, relativistic speedblitz is a bitch like that.


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## Expelsword (Oct 17, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWRAEVPVcc[/YOUTUBE]


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

Cloud's faster, hell... Zack's fight with  (able to move about as fast as any of the fucker's movements on top of being able to dodge the dragon's projectiles that could travel thousands of kilometers in seconds in the FMV) makes the vast majority of the verse faster.

So.... genjutsu ultimately means jack shit if he can't get proper eye contact as far as I can tell.

As for raw power?

Cloud trumps Sasuke once more.

Will power/fighting spirit/whatever the fuck you want to call it?  .

The final battle between Sephiroth and Cloud in FFVII?  A battle of the minds, but showcased fairly clearly Cloud, when using a limit as powerful as Omnislash, surpasses Sephiroth's own mental power/will.

Same mind that held back Holy, the white magic equal of .


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## Alucardemi (Oct 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Will power/fighting spirit/whatever the fuck you want to call it?  It's the cornerstone to FFVII's power scale



This is actually a very important plot-point for FFVII's power-scale, but alot of people miss it because it's really not explained very openly, and so some of the points of the scale seem rather out-of-place or disconnected. However, its most definitely a thing. I'm gonna take a little time and just compile everything into this post if anyone ever needs to clear this up again at some point in the future.

Yeah, so that term; 'Will/fightning spirit/Spirit Energy' is actually used somewhat loosely in FFVII, and its abit hard to pin them down, but let's start with what exactly the spirit is.





The first thing to establish is that there's a difference between the spirit energy one finds in Materia, which is crystallized Mako -- just knowledge, and the spirit energy of a living soul, or in other words, a conciousness. Mako energy isn't conscious and it can only carry knowledge, but not the memories, thoughts and feelings a consciousness can. Basically, it has no will, whle consciousness is the definition of will.

That's what the soul is in FFVII -- it is literally your mind. Its your experiences, feelings and thoughts. In FFVII, there does not seem to be a separation between the soul and the mind like in various fictions.

Now, in FFVII, and in most FF's, really, memories have always been an actual power-source. In FFVII, the Will, the licing soul, the consciousness, whatever, is an actual source of power that can be used in combat; 





This is what normal people, like most of AVALANCHE and the Turks, use to acheive Limit-Breaks and super-human feats, just the sheer power of the conscious.

This mechanic is best exemplified by the Digital Mind Wave in Crisis Core, which is what you use to perform Limits;



			
				FFWikia said:
			
		

> Though not stated in-game, the Digital Mind Wave is a representation of Zack's thoughts, which is why his emotions can affect its results during gameplay and flashbacks of Zack's life appear when the reels spin during Modulating Phase. The English-version website for Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII- explains that SOLDIER members are taught to call upon their past experiences in battle to heighten their strength and improve their skills further, namely, leveling up.



Limit-Breaks, essentially, are reliant on memories, thoughts and emotions to power them, the will -- the conscious, the power of the soul, is what strenghtens them.





Limits are essentially just a way to weaponize one's own spirit, which is their will -- thoughts, emotions and experiences.

So, the power of Limits, as CT said, will be one's own will. Emotions, thoughts and memories will directly empower a person.

Look at back the fanchise, and you will see this fits perfectly, like a glove.

How did a completely human Cloud gain enough power to wield the Buster Sword effortlessly, nearly bisect Sephiroth with it, and become able to sword-lock with him for a brief amount of time?

That's a foreshadowing of the power of Cloud's will, his spirit -- emotions, thoughts and experiences -- and the power they can give him.

This is why the captions above says Zack based Meteor Shots _on Cloud_, because Zack needed to feel the emotions Cloud gave him to use that attack. This is why the DMW shows flashbacks, considers enotions and feelings and thoughts when performing Limits.

This is also why Cloud's OmnislashV6 is stronger than the previous Omnislash. V6 was based on the feelings, memories and thoughts that he gained with his normal life with Marlene, Denzel and Tifa. That's when he developed the attack, and those are its core emotions. He had to remember those feelings, those memories, before he could elevate his will to its peak-level and reach his strongest point.

The final confrontation in BC was the same thing. The player Turk elevates their level with memories and emotions, enough to land a devastating finishing blow on Zirconiade in the climax.

While this seems like unexplainable shounen plot-shit, its actually very much ingrained in FFVII that the will is actual power -- its the main power-source in the verse.

~~~

Now, I'd just like to go on a brief side-bar for this thread to talk about Cloud and his will, which will include abit of story in the perspective so its not as important.


*Spoiler*: __ 



So, the creators make it a point to emphasize the power of Sephiroth's will, his spirit, numerous times in the story;




His will is what allowed him to resist the flow of the Lifestream -- something Rufus deemed 'impossible', and it was a powerful enough source of energy to comletely halt Holy's radiance from moving even an inch with sheer force of will, Holy which has equal power to Meteor.

Now, Cloud, when his soul is at its strongest points, has a stronger soul than Sephiroth's;




This is also pretty-much repeated at the end of AC when Cloud uses the OmnislashV6. This is speking strictly on their wills, of course. Sephiroth has a stonger strain of S-cells and more Mako energy, but on will-power itself, Cloud is stronger than him.

And that's done on purpose, but the thing that's most important, is how they emphasize the difference between how Cloud and Sephiroth treat their emotions and memories.

After the end of FFVII, in Lifestream-Black, when Sephiroth's soul was torn to pieces by Cloud, Sephiroth was weakened and had to create a stronger core for his spirit. Which meant making his strongest emotions the core of his being. He made those Cloud. And he got rid of any other emotions that he thought were inconsequential.



			
				LF Black said:
			
		

> The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet’s system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.





			
				LS Black said:
			
		

> When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man had already surrendered his inconsequential memories to the planet. Memories from when he was a boy, of his few friends, of the battles when he was still unaware, of his life in bygone days–



Because his soul had been wounded by Cloud's soul, Sephiroth basically re-structured it to contain the memories he felt more strongly for, therefore re-empowering his soul, perhaps even stronger than before.

And that's where Cloud's seemingly random line in AC/C comes to play, right as he's about to use V6;



			
				Cloud said:
			
		

> There's nothing that I don't value



The parallel that's being made between the two people here is how they approach things. Sephiroth values only one thing; revenge on Cloud, and for that, he even gave-away memories that should be precious, but he deemed inconsequential.

Cloud is the exact opposite, there's nothing that he deems inconsequential. In a way, this is the crux for all of Cloud's character. Cloud isn't the type of person who forgets his memories(or rather, he isn't now -- that's the whole point of his character arc in FFVII), he's become someone who thinks his memories, however minor or unimportant, Cloud still feels like they're important.

This is why he can get depressed, and stuck in the past more easily. That's one of the reasons why he's so weak -- because he can end-up giving value to his past too much, he can end-up stuck there.

But at the same time, because he deems none of his memories inconsequential, that's also why he's stronger than anyone. Because all of his memories count for him, they can all give him some strenght, it depends on how he's facing everything. When he's wallowing on guilt, he's weak. But when he recognizes that he wants to go back to his family, he's stronger than anyone.

That's why the creators have Cloud's soul > Sephiroth's. Because Cloud gives more fucks, and gives them so much. While Sephiroth also gives much fucks, but not as much as Cloud.


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## Megatron (Oct 17, 2014)

If we're already "derailing" the thread, I would like to share my notes on the power of Cloud and Sephiroth:



			
				Post-Retcon Sephiroth (Advent Children Complete) said:
			
		

> *Introduction:* Soon after FF7 was released in 1997, Sephiroth's "Super Nova" attack was retconned into it's present form. The retcon was later confirmed in Crisis Core, where SN was called his ultimate attack (see the "Supernova" section). The biggest difference it makes, save for a massive power boost, is that he apparently no longer needs the Black Materia to summon Meteor.
> 
> 
> *Stats:*
> ...






			
				Cloud (Advent Children Complete) said:
			
		

> *Introduction:* Per proxy, Cloud is equal to Sephiroth.
> 
> 
> *Stats:*
> ...


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 17, 2014)

> Willpower (the primary determinant of his stats and the power of his abilities): Multiversal (his FF7 "Super Nova" ability unfolds a universe and he's easily many times stronger than Kadaj, who's no weaker than his FF7 incarnation).
> 
> Strength/attack potency: Potentially up to multiversal (see above).



just giving people a hint at what's under those spoilers


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## Adamant soul (Oct 17, 2014)

Multiversal Seph, is that some kind of a joke or is this guy just trolling?


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## Alucardemi (Oct 17, 2014)

Megatron said:


> If we're already "derailing" the thread, I would like to share my notes on the power of Cloud and Sephiroth:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Post-Retcon Sephiroth (Advent Children Complete)_
> ...





C'mon, man. I worked hard on that post so it could be used as a reference and now the thread just got bomb-shelled into oblivion.

What in the blazes.


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## Atem (Oct 17, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> just giving people a hint at what's under those spoilers



My god. 

**


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## Atem (Oct 17, 2014)

This is worse than Raigen wank.


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## Solar (Oct 17, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> C'mon, man. I worked hard on that post so it could be used as a reference and now the thread just got bomb-shelled into oblivion.
> 
> What in the blazes.



No good deed goes unpunished in the OBD.


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## Atem (Oct 17, 2014)

Alucardemi it's not your fault.

It's that guy who happens to have named himself Megatron. The real Megatron is disgusted.


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## AngryHeretic (Oct 17, 2014)

multiversal seph got beat by cloud so clouds omniversal guys 

but sasukes genjutsu beats goku so obv cloud is dead LOL stomp


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## TheForgottenPen (Oct 17, 2014)

Megatron said:


> If we're already "derailing" the thread, I would like to share my notes on the power of Cloud and Sephiroth:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Post-Retcon Sephiroth (Advent Children Complete)_
> ...



Holy wankage....


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 17, 2014)

Megatron said:


> If we're already "derailing" the thread, I would like to share my notes on the power of Cloud and Sephiroth:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Post-Retcon Sephiroth (Advent Children Complete)_
> ...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> C'mon, man. I worked hard on that post so it could be used as a reference and now the thread just got bomb-shelled into oblivion.
> 
> What in the blazes.



Bomb-shelled to oblivion or not, your post saves me much effort in the future honestly.

I know where most of the crap you posted is, but gathering it all in one place was a giant pain in the ass.

So that's something worth noting anyway


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 17, 2014)

Okay to actually break down how wrong that post is...

1. There's no proof that Sephiroth made that "universe" (they're called dimensions. not full-on universes IIRC). Just that he pulled them into it for the attack.
2. If he can just up and make a universe, he's kind of wasting that on an attack that is solar system level instead of just chucking a big bang in front of Cloud's face
3. As the feat contradicts Sephiroth's goals and is trillions of times above anything else in Final Fantasy VII, it is generally considered to be an outlier.
4. Even if all of this _was_ true the maximum it could be would be universal. I can honestly see how you'd get universal, even if that is massively flawed. But multiversal? That just seems to come out of nowhere.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Okay to actually break down how wrong that post is...
> 
> 1. There's no proof that Sephiroth made that "universe" (they're called dimensions. not full-on universes IIRC). Just that he pulled them into it for the attack.
> 2. If he can just up and make a universe, he's kind of wasting that on an attack that is solar system level instead of just chucking a big bang in front of Cloud's face
> ...



Actually, the sole reason I figure it's an outlier still pretty much stems back to the fact he could accomplish the limit since Crisis Core... which we never see granted, so who knows what it looked like?

The plot was made irrelevant by the   was his power near godhood.

Which in the end I still kind of end up chalking up to him being batshit insane for summoning Meteor in the first place given that...


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## Regicide (Oct 17, 2014)

The fuck?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 17, 2014)

Well, is it possible that just means that his plans were coming close to fruition? As in, he's nearing the power of a God because he's about to absorb the Lifestream.

Besides, having neared godhood still means you're not quite a god, so there is that.

Although as I said to you in a VM about this, this is the company that apparently ruins the games' legacy with every extra piece of material they put out about it, so retconning the entire plot so that it's pointless wouldn't exactly surprise me.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

Regicide said:


> The fuck?



Square can't keep good track of games and plots with expanded universes.

Look at that recent FFX novel for the most recent reference.

@TS - True enough, though near is still close enough where I'd figure the remainder is splitting hairs.

Agree that they suck at the whole expanded universe shit though.


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## Regicide (Oct 17, 2014)

Was actually referring to the multiversal Sephiroth bullshit everyone was reacting to.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 17, 2014)

I'm lost is the Nardoverse still in the planet level range or did that get debunked too along with the Sub-Relitivistic speeds?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 17, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> I'm lost is the Nardoverse still in the planet level range or did that get debunked too along with the Sub-Relitivistic speeds?



They never hit planet level, but Hagoromo and Kaguya get small planet DC from Hagoromo's moon making.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Was actually referring to the multiversal Sephiroth bullshit everyone was reacting to.



Thought you already had

Though I wasn't really paying close attention


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## TheForgottenPen (Oct 17, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> I'm lost is the Nardoverse still in the planet level range or did that get debunked too along with the Sub-Relitivistic speeds?



Not relativistic


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Not relativistic



Aren't you supposed to be getting your ass kicked in Nocturne and crying bitter tears of frustration?

Why are you posting?


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## Tom Servo (Oct 17, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> They never hit planet level, but Hagoromo and Kaguya get small planet DC from Hagoromo's moon making.



Not just that to my knowledge Flutter calced one of the Juubi's blasts in the exaton range or something like that


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

Exatons aren't too relevant here

Cloud and Sephiroth kind of chilled at the epicenter of the Weapons destroying crater.

Cloud was more harmed by mako poisoning than the resulting explosion that took the crater basin out (the combined firepower of 5 higher end continental weapons)


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## Regicide (Oct 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Aren't you supposed to be getting your ass kicked in Nocturne and crying bitter tears of frustration?
> 
> Why are you posting?


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## TheForgottenPen (Oct 17, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Aren't you supposed to be getting your ass kicked in Nocturne and crying bitter tears of frustration?
> 
> Why are you posting?



I just want my post count over 1000

Is that so much to ask, CT?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

It's too easy to take potshots at how pathetic those aspirations are

So I won't

Now go back to the convo and bring on the entertainment


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 17, 2014)

TheForgottenPen said:


> I just want my post count over 1000
> 
> Is that so much to ask, CT?


Is must be more anguishing to forget what happened last time with the wine,


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## TheForgottenPen (Oct 17, 2014)

Ringabel said:


> Is must be more anguishing to forget what happened last time with the wine,



We don't talk about that

...

ever


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## Solar (Oct 17, 2014)

I see you lurking, Megatron. You better get in here and prove multiversal Sephiroth.


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## FrozenFeathers (Oct 17, 2014)

Megatron huh, had enough of his autism in MVC.

Oh and Sasuke is moon level, a feat Cloud never displayed.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 17, 2014)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Megatron huh, had enough of his autism in MVC.
> 
> Oh and Sasuke is moon level, a feat Cloud never displayed.



I'm sort of a hypocrite for commenting on this... but did you even bother to read any posts here?

Alucardemi and I already illustrated that, yes, at the end of FFVII, his last battle with Sephiroth puts his DC on par with the same Sephiroth that held back Holy when using Limits as powerful as Omnislash.

Not to mention there's enough of a speed gap where a limit as fast as Omnislash v6 gave Sephirtoh, a dude who's already faster than Sasuke, no time or ability to react.


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## DarkTorrent (Oct 17, 2014)

Not to mention that at chapter *596* Sauce was at best island level.


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## FrozenFeathers (Oct 18, 2014)

LOL
Sasuke when he sliced up Madara's CT was already continent level.
Then he added most of the bijuu on top of his Susanoo, and was stated to be Hagoromo level by someone who saw Hagoromo up close.


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## Expelsword (Oct 18, 2014)

Where are people getting multiversal?

Even if you take Super Nova literally that's only Solar System+


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## DarkTorrent (Oct 18, 2014)

FrozenFeathers said:


> LOL
> Sasuke when he sliced up Madara's CT was already continent level.
> Then he added most of the bijuu on top of his Susanoo, and was stated to be Hagoromo level by someone who saw Hagoromo up close.



chapter *596* is pre-Tobito reveal 

all of the feats you've listed happened much later


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 18, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> chapter *596* is pre-Tobito reveal
> 
> all of the feats you've listed happened much later



Somehow I assume that it's a typo


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## DarkTorrent (Oct 18, 2014)

Probably 

Even if it is Sauce still doesn't stand much chance due to the difference in speed and, from what I'm getting from this thread, dc.


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## Red Angel (Oct 18, 2014)

Ugh, Megatron. Go Raigen Transformers elsewhere plx


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## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2014)

If Current Sasuke is truly RS-level then he still stand a chance. Slim but still there.

Also, where in the living hell is Sephiroth in the multiversal-range?


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## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Okay to actually break down how wrong that post is...
> 
> 1. There's no proof that Sephiroth made that "universe" (they're called dimensions. not full-on universes IIRC). Just that he pulled them into it for the attack.



In The Compilation there's no mention of preexisting alt dimensions/parallel universes. Even the summed beasts materialize from the Lifestream only upon summon, as exemplified by Bahamut Sin:



When KoTR finish their attack, the dimension literally falls apart:





ThanatoSeraph said:


> 2. If he can just up and make a universe, he's kind of wasting that on an attack that is solar system level instead of just chucking a big bang in front of Cloud's face



It's not a question for me, I guess.




ThanatoSeraph said:


> 3. As the feat contradicts Sephiroth's goals and is trillions of times above anything else in Final Fantasy VII, it is generally considered to be an outlier.



Sephiroth's goal is to *rule over every soul*:




You will need more than statistics to dismiss his signature attack, which Super Nova is, as it's mentioned over and over: 

1) Crisis Core:



			
				Crisis Core said:
			
		

> - What is Sephiroth's ultimate attack?
> 
> -



2) The 10th Anniversary FF7 Ultimania Omega:



			
				Ultimania Omega said:
			
		

> *Supernova*
> 
> Something is summoned forth by Sephiroth when both of his hands are raised.
> 
> ...



3) He has it even in Dissidia:






ThanatoSeraph said:


> 4. Even if all of this _was_ true the maximum it could be would be universal. I can honestly see how you'd get universal, even if that is massively flawed. But multiversal? That just seems to come out of nowhere.



Kadaj >/= FF7 Sephiroth:



Now, Kadaj is fodder next to EoS AC Cloud. After a short battle, which is almost completely defensive on his part, he gets completely overpowered and trashed (with Finishing Touch):



Then Sephiroth casually - with one hand - blocks much stronger slashes (the original Omnislash):



He pretty much shrugs it off, which easily makes him several times, or even orders of magnitude, stronger than Kadaj and Safer Sephiroth.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Oct 18, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Square can't keep good track of games and plots with expanded universes.
> 
> Look at that *recent FFX novel* for the most recent reference.
> 
> ...



Lets never mention that trash ever again.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

@Megatron

Look, fact of the matter is, Supernova has been pretty much dropped by the creators in the FFVII canon. Its kind of a silly attack that would only fit in a crazy, already power-level skewed and fantasical fighting game like Dissidia.
The mentioning of it in Crisis Core is useless in terms of story. Same Premium Membership Club asks you about Cloud's Omnislash. Yes, Omnislash. Before Cloud even created the attack. The Club questions are not story-valid, at all.

I admit that its described in the Ultimania Omega, but even then, it still bears the burden of being pretty-much an outlier and since the original game, completely thrown out of FFVII's story. Really, Octaslash is now Sephiroth's signature Limit-Break, pretty much. Its what he used a stronger form of in AC/C to counter the original Omnislash. 

I should also stress that the jump you're making between universe and multiverse is for ridiculous reasons. Assuming everything you said was correct, even though Cloud is significantly stronger than Kadaj, you'd have to place him at Universe+, not just slap a multiverse badge on him. 


I disagree with how you portray the Omnislash instance, too.

*Spoiler*: __ 




And the countering of the original Omnislash really doesn't indicate what you're saying at all. Sephiroth was Limit-Breaking as well, he was using two-hands and in the complete defensive until Cloud over-exerted after Sephiroth's side-steps that he could himself quickly counter-attack at an opening and used two slashes to push Cloud back. Power-wise, their blows are pretty-much equal until the V6, and this is exemplified in their numerous sword-locks. Sephiroth, however, has already seen Omnislash's pattern and is not falling for it twice. It was a slightly better tactical choice to stay defensive and wait for Omnislash's weakness -- and that's how he won that instance. He didn't completely overpower the original Omnislash, but he's at a level where he could, now, contend with its blows and effectively defend and counter-attack it; not outright overpower it. On its level, or perhaps slightly above it. Besides, if Finishing Touch defeated Kadaj, the Original Omnislash got a boost in power as well.

The only over-powering happened when Cloud's V6 shattered Sephiroth's guard in the first strike.




So you also can't just slap a multiverse tag on Cloud's Omnislash, Omnislash V6 and Sephiroth. All you could say, is that they'd be stronger, unquantifiably so, than Supernova.

Not even gonna go on any of that universe-level stuff, that's just crazy-talk. I have no clue how you think that Supernova has universal power. Maybe Sephiroth just uses another already created dimension. Why not? Its stated that the Lifestream can connect worlds. Remember Tactics? The authors go somewhat out of their way to confirm that that's the actual Cloud from FFVII's story in the various ultimania's. After the Weapon's Explosion, Cloud fell down all the way to the core of the planet, where he then swam in Lifestream, and at some point, was transported to the world of Tactics, memory-fucked and having hallucinations from the Lifestream.
That is a thing that actually happened. Its is then assumed that after the giant explosion at the end of Tactics, it somehow transported Cloud back to the Lifestream, where he then stayed longer, got Mako Poisoned, and then was released from an under-sea crater in the sea next to Mideel.

But if that actually happened in the time-line or not is irrelevant. If Cloud actually went to Tactics or not is debatable and contingent on alot of things. The thing is, they clearly acknowledge that the Lifestream can lead to other universes.


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## shade0180 (Oct 18, 2014)

A supernova is just an exploding star at best that would give him star level to solar system level not even entering Galaxy level... That is a really big jump if you expected it to be universe level... and claiming it as multiversal level is just ridiculously stupid


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## Adamant soul (Oct 18, 2014)

Remind me what feats Kadaj has that put him on the level of FFVII Sephiroth? 

Also creating and/or destroying a dimension doesn't make you universal unless the dimension is shown/stated to be at least the size of a universe. There is however no evidence that Sephiroth creates the dimension the super nova attack takes place in, and the attack itself doesn't destroy the whole dimension, only a solar system. Seriously, solar system level is the absolute best you're getting out of what is obviously an outlier. 

By the way, being leagues stronger than a universal doesn't make you multiversal. To use a Digimon example, Yggdrasil, a universal deity is outright one-shotted by Omegamon X but that doesn't make him multiversal as he simply doesn't have the feats to support it.. Nor would Sephiroth or Cloud even disregarding the fact no one in FFVII is remotely close to universal, let alone multiversal.


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## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Look, fact of the matter is, Supernova has been pretty much dropped by the creators in the FFVII canon.


When? CC, Ultimania and Dissidia say otherwise.



Alucardemi said:


> The mentioning of it in Crisis Core is useless in terms of story. Same Premium Membership Club asks you about Cloud's Omnislash. Yes, Omnislash. Before Cloud even created the attack. The Club questions are not story-valid, at all.







			
				Alucardemi;52002799I admit that its described in the Ultimania Omega said:
			
		

> The statistical approach is a fallacy (appeal to popularity), as it's not how authors think. If you want to dismiss the attack, find something that legitimately contradicts it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shade0180 (Oct 18, 2014)

........ the fuck what create.... For all we know the universe shit that is shown with sephiroth's supernova could be attributed/compared to the same way the summons uses their ability/powers which is they just shift to some dimension not create a whole new universe and the destruction happens at that place... 

 how did you end up with universe creation when there are more viable option that can be use as an example in the series itself, without getting really out of hand and claiming some universal. creation shit...


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 18, 2014)

uh huh, universe creation


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## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

Megatron said:


> When? CC, Ultimania and Dissidia say otherwise.



The Ultimania mentions the attack, yes, but its apperances in Dissidia and CC are irrelevant. Dissidia because of the fact its a fanservice fighting game where such a ridiculous attack could exist without much contradiction, and CC because its never mentioned there in the story.



Megatron said:


> https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1...ion&gws_rd=ssl



I'm starting to think that you're trolling me.



I don't see how that's relevant. The point I was making is that that exposition is useless, because it has no actual place within the storyline of CC, precisely because the Club makes questions that are meta-literary in nature. Like knowing Cloud's ultimate Limit before its created.



Megatron said:


> he statistical approach is a fallacy (appeal to popularity), as it's not how authors think. If you want to dismiss the attack, find something that legitimately contradicts it.



I'm dismissing it by myself, not appealing to anyone else. Simply because it seems like a silly, non-consistent attack with FFVII's internal system that seems to have been somewhat dropped because of its sillyness.



Megatron said:


> Proof? Octoslash, as it's name indicates, consists of 8 consecutive slashes, not 15.



I believe he used Octaslash because of the stancing.



Sephiroth took a step back, braced himself and entered Octaslash stance before facing the Omnislash. Besides, Sephiroth himself didn't do any slashes, he was being defensive. He dodged several of Cloud's slashes.

The fact that he wasn't glowing shouldn't really be much of a problem, as we can being-out the issue they had with giving anyone else other than Cloud a glow for limits because it was too expensive and hair got in the way. They go ad nauseum on the Reunion Files about how they had trouble animating Sephiroth's hair. Giving him a glow would be impossible to do.

But that doesn't mean he wans't using his Limit. Tifa, Barret and arguably Kadaj used Limits but they didn't get their auras.



Megatron said:


> Do you realize how ridiculous is the gap in (will)power between Kadaj and AC Sephiroth?



I know, and its no justification.

That is absolutely no reason for you to jump from univese to multiverse. We don't work like that here.



Megatron said:


> Sephiroth uses two hands only to counter the initial blow, but he does the same during sword locks. The remaining slashes are parried with one hand.



I fail to see the counter here, however.

He used two-hands for the first two slew of blows and immediately entered a guard where he could deflect Cloud's slash downwards(), then he entrered a phase where he was back-stepping and dodging every blow, then when Cloud became too over-extended in the attack, and Sephiroth found an opening, he struck one-handed twice and got Cloud to jump backwards, and then took advantage of the known pattern of the attack and abused its weakness. AC/C Sephiroth didn't overpower the Omnislash, he couldn't block the first blow and directly counter-attack, he had to wait for openings in the attack when Cloud started over-extending to actually be able to counter, which didn't initially hurt Cloud until the final counter.

That's definitely not the 'outclassing' you are suggesting. Cloud elevated his level so Sephiroth elevated his level to defend, that's how their entire fight went. They were pretty-much equals, but Sephiroth edged him out in strategy by counter-attacking a known pattern. The only time someone was even remotely out-powered and not out-manuvered was when this happened;


*Spoiler*: __ 














That's a legitimate broken guard with a slash on-top of that connecting.

Besides, I fail to see how this goes against your point. Since Kadaj and his 'final attack' was defeated by Finishing Touch, then AC/C Omnislash is naturally stronger than FFVII Omnislash, because of Cloud's stronger feelings. I don't know why you'd be against the above interpretation. I just don't think Sephiroth overpowered Cloud in the level you are suggesting in that instance.



Megatron said:


> Once more



But I just told you that that's not the case.

At the very least, Tactics is another universe that can be acessed by the Lifestream. If that is the case, would you concede to the idea that maybe Sephiroth isn't the creator of that dimension, but the attack simply transports one to another universe?

Because if that's the case, I'm going to go look for the evidence right the fuck now.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

Ah...

Supernova was never dropped.  It's just an outlier.  The attack itself still exists.  And recall, Omnislash was inspired by a manual.  The reference in CC could have been to that, though I don't remember how it was phrased.

Point being... You have no actual evidence supporting Supernova being ignored/retconned and are kind of ignoring evidence contrary to your opinion.

Still an outlier though.

Omnislash was countered by regular strikes too IIRC, there was no blue aura indicative of limits in the film during that moment for Sephiroth.

Let me make it clear, Cloud with limits is above Seph without them.  Had Seph used one in the climax of FFVII, odds are the outcome would have favored Seph.


----------



## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Supernova was never dropped. It's just an outlier. The attack itself still exists. And recall, Omnislash was inspired by a manual. The reference in CC could have been to that, though I don't remember how it was phrased.



It was phrased as being Sephiroth's ultimate limit, so the phrasing is pretty unambiguous about it being his attack, I'm pretty sure.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Point being... You have no actual evidence supporting Supernova being ignored/retconned and are kind of ignoring evidence contrary to your opinion.
> 
> Still an outlier though.



The only reason I think its dropped is for being an outlier, though. It makes very little sense within an in-story power-scaling, although its still mentioned anywhere but in the story.

That strikes me as a little suspicious, but sure, I guess its better to just call it outlier.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Omnislash was countered by regular strikes too IIRC, there was no blue aura indicative of limits in the film during that moment for Sephiroth.



I covered this in my previous post as well, though.

I don't think there needed to be one, the stance for Octaslash seems enough to me. Really, even though several people probably used Limits in the movie, only Cloud got the all-body aura that they have.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Had Seph used one in the climax of FFVII, odds are the outcome would have favored Seph.



I really see no reason to think Sephiroth didn't use Limits other than lack of aura, which they really wouldn't animate on Sephiroth.

The fight makes infinitely more sense if he did use them, as first they were mathing each-other with normal strikes, neither using limits, and then when cloud used one, he used one.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

Seph wasn't exerting himself per word of god and the general lack of grunting and general noise making Cloud made.

ACC is Seph at his strongest.  Him getting his ass handed to him by Cloud in FFVII isn't really contradicting that point here.


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## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)

The very concept of outliers  is a variant of the "appeal to popularity" fallacy. It's based on the assumption that the most often displayed level of power represents the author's true intentions.


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## Regicide (Oct 18, 2014)

That's.. not how outliers work.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

We're not on MVC dude

I play by your rules when I post there, I figure you can forego bringing up authorial intent when we don't even use it here.

You know, outside of inferring they want money.

That said?  My only real gripe with it nowadays comes from the CC reference.  The limit itself is a pretty shitty usage of energy.  The kind of power fuckers getting hit by it feel only requires petatons to exatons to survive due to surface area.

As for Seph using limits in the film?  If someone has a copy of the script?  That would be settled quick.


----------



## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)




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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

Is that a text copy of the limited edition script?

Or just a fan having meticulously copied the events and dialogue of the film on paper?

The former is kind of what we need.


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## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)

Hard to say.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Seph wasn't exerting himself per word of god and the general lack of grunting and general noise making Cloud made.



I would actually argue that the interpretation of that quote doesn't at all indicate that he was holding back. But this is off-topic. I would like to debate this with you, though. If you have the time and place some day.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> ACC is Seph at his strongest. Him getting his ass handed to him by Cloud in FFVII isn't really contradicting that point here.



Yes, indeed, I understand that, and I admit that I was going off-topic, sorry about that.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Or just a fan having meticulously copied the events and dialogue of the film on paper?
> 
> The former is kind of what we need.



Well, there was once a copy of the actual script to justify the part where Kadaj used lightning on Cloud, and the script itself -- it was a scan actually confirmed by two people with two scripts, just said that 'Kadaj unleashed a lightning bolt and a dance-like battle ensued.'

Therefore, I can attest to the fact that that's a fan-script. I'll look for the script scan too if needed.


----------



## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)




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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2014)

In what world does that mean infinite?


----------



## Megatron (Oct 18, 2014)

Sorry, that's not everything. At the end of the ~12-hour battle Cloud is completely exhausted, whilst Sephiroth is as fresh at the beginning.


----------



## Adamant soul (Oct 18, 2014)

Megatron said:


> Sorry, that's not everything. At the end of the ~12-hour battle Cloud is completely exhausted, whilst Sephiroth is as fresh at the beginning.



Still doesn't prove Sephiroth has infinite stamina, only that he has a lot.


----------



## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

Well, that's certainly an interpretation that could be made from 'Sephiroth never sweats', considering his body is entirely Jenova at that point, so he shouldn't really sweat cosidering he's an alien, but my point is a little besides that one. Still, I'm not sure if we can make the jump and say that his stamina is infinite, rather that because he has an alien body, he doesn't get tired as a human does. But maybe his energy can be expended, so who knows?

This is off-topic, so its getting a spoiler.


*Spoiler*: __ 



What's important to point-out, I feel, is this;

'never shows and *sign* of exertion.'

To be concise, he's not really telling us that Sephiroth isn't exerting his strength, he's saying that the signs don't show. That's, subtly so, yes, but still diffrerent from saying he wasn't trying.

This is more of a call-back to describe Sephiroth's demeanor in battle more than anything.

Like, if you go back and watch his fights with Genesis, Angeal and Zack, you'll notice that unlike his peers, he really doesn't utter much sound in movement or in grunt. In-fact, the instances that he does, is when he seems to be at a disadvantage and can't seem to stop himself from just letting it out. This happens quite alot in the battle with Cloud, there are times when he just sporadically lets out a grunt.

Its part of his psyche, if you will. Warfare of the mind. Sephiroth can't help but appease his God-complex by controlling each and everyone of his reactions so that it gives the illusion that he's not trying in the fight by controlling his signs. He does this in every fight, really.

He didn't utter grunts or sounds in his fight with Zack, but Hojo speculated that CC Sephiroth was pushed to his limits, and we can see that when he finally decided to use two-hands on Zack -- which instantly defeated him. The only opponent that Sephiroth has regularly used two-hands against is Cloud, for pretty much their entire fight, in AC/C no less, his strongest form.

That's why I don't think the lack of particle/wave/light/whatever effects is called is a problem. Several times in the Reunion Files they complain about the fact that animating peope like Yazoo, Sephiroth and Nanaki gave them nightmares. In-fact, they used Loz so much because his hair was so short, he was easier to do fight scenes with.
That's precisely why the used that light-effect for Loz's dashing, even though he isn't faster than Kadaj or Cloud or Sephiroth or even Yazoo. It was simply because he had a less flowing hair and attire.

Barret used Big Shot, but the oly thing that changed was the shot itself, he also didn't get any aura. Tifa used one of her Limtis on Loz, but she also lacked an aura. Really, again, Cloud is the only one sho seems to get them because that's honestly where their budget and ability to animate seems to end.

However, I'd argue that Sephiroth was using Limits;



> Only the places where Sephiroth cut through were burning because those points were where all his power gathered before being scattered.


 - 

Now, such power is certainly an effect of spirit-energy syncing with the body and being emitted from it -- which is the definition of a Limit. However, they couldn't manifest that as a glow on Sephiroth, due to his hair and attire, so they settled for just that cool fire effect.

It stands to reason that if he was using this in those slashes, he'd be using an actual Limit when he stops, enters Octaslash stance, and clearly prepares himself for the confrontation ahead.

Lastly; Sephiroth's entire beef with Cloud is that he wants to prove that he's stronger, he wants to prove that Cloud is still a puppet at his feet, and he wants to quickly show Cloud that he's nothing compared to him. This is why it doesn't make much sense for Sephiroth to 'hold back'. If Sephiroth could, he'd instantly show Cloud that Cloud would be nothing compared to him. He'd instantly beat him down and put him at his feet while he killed Cloud's friends. I don't think there's any reason why Sephiroth would, for example, let Cloud match him in a sword-lock. Not only that, but push him backwards -- twice! There's no way that Sephiroth, the guy who thinks Cloud is still just a Shinra grunt, would willingly let himself feel the shame of being pushed-back by cloud if he had a choice on the matter.

Can you see the perspective I'm coming from? It makes no sense for Cloud and Sephiroth, in the author's words, to be fighting equally for the duration of the fight, to then be still fighting equally when Cloud uses a Limit and Sephiroth doesn't, especially when their statistics and souls are supposed to be close in power, as they're stated to be rivals God-knows how many times by the authors.

I think the most sense is the explanation that they're pretty-much equals or almost as such, at least in the power and speed department,as shown in the fight, and they just didn't bother to animate effects for Seph.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 18, 2014)

Megatron said:


> In The Compilation there's no mention of preexisting alt dimensions/parallel universes. Even the summed beasts materialize from the Lifestream only upon summon, as exemplified by Bahamut Sin:


There is likewise no mention of them creating any parallel universes, so you don't want to get into what is/isn't mentioned.



> When KoTR finish their attack, the dimension literally falls apart:



Or that's a fancy way of showing the return back to reality?




> It's not a question for me, I guess.



"If you're going to call an attack into question, find something that contradicts it first!"

"Woop, found something that contradicts it. Not a question for me."




> Sephiroth's goal is to *rule over every soul*:



Don't play dumb. It doesn't just insult the intelligence of whoever chooses to debate this point, it insults your own intelligence too.

In that very same cutscene, Sephiroth talks about how he wants to destroy the world to gain that power.




> You will need more than statistics to dismiss his signature attack, which Super Nova is, as it's mentioned over and over:



Defining outliers isn't about statistics in this hobby. If it was we would have really stupid shit like probably wall level Sephiroth due to statistical averages.




> 1) Crisis Core:



You do realise that this just makes it even more of an outlier right?



> 2) The 10th Anniversary FF7 Ultimania Omega:



Look, I'm not saying that the attack doesn't exist. Just that it seems to be a pretty obvious outlier.


> 3) He has it even in Dissidia:



A non-canon fighting game.





> Kadaj >/= FF7 Sephiroth:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And due to how powerscaling works, you get to claim that they would be universal+. No more. The power increase you're giving them is entirely arbitrary.

Also, cut the crap about outliers betraying author's intent. Unless you're the author themselves, you can't really state with any certainty what that intent actually is.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

You could settle the KotR thing if you translated those scans I linked you TS 

I'm sure they describe exactly what's happening much like how the ultimania described Supernova.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 18, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You could settle the KotR thing if you translated those scans I linked you TS
> 
> I'm sure they describe exactly what's happening much like how the ultimania described Supernova.



Yeah well, it might not be a lot of text, but translating shit is still a lot more mentally taxing than debating vs. matches.

And I am supposed to be studying right now. 

Pretty much the only reason why I still can post here is because I can turn my brain off to do it.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2014)

Well, I brought-up the counter that Tactics is a universe that is definitely reachable from FFVII's, so the hypothesis that Sephiroth just transports the party is far more likely than a universe is suddenly created.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 18, 2014)

Not a particular rush, just pointing out an observation 

Take your time dude, relax and all that good shit.  Turning off your brain is what you clearly need.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Look, I'm not saying that the attack doesn't exist. Just that it seems to be a pretty obvious outlier.


Super Nova only slightly modifies the plot, rendering the Black Materia useless and turning it into a generic plot device. 

One more thing: His aim isn't as simple as becoming stronger, but to gain absolute control over life and death ("rule over every soul"). It's a very specific power that can't be attained with a strong will alone, even if it's godlike.




ThanatoSeraph said:


> And due to how powerscaling works, you get to claim that they would be universal+. No more. The power increase you're giving them is entirely arbitrary.


Here we will have to agree to disagree, cause in my opinion AC Sephiroth is easily several times stronger than Kadaj, but it's not going anywhere.




Alucardemi said:


> Well, I brought-up the counter that Tactics is a universe that is definitely reachable from FFVII's, so the hypothesis that Sephiroth just transports the party is far more likely than a universe is suddenly created.


In the primary canon there's no mention of the existence of other universes/dimensions. Even the summoned beasts come to existence only upon summon, as shown in AC, so my point still stands.


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

Megatron said:


> Super Nova only slightly modifies the plot, rendering the Black Materia useless and turning it into a generic plot device.



Oh yeah... No biggy, it's not like you spend half the game looking for that thing right ? Come on, I think someone already posted the "real" and original Supernova, it's nothing like all the fluff that has been added in Western versions. I wouldn't even call it an outlier, I'd call it outright not canon but well, it's there. It still doesn't make a lick of damn sense that he's capable of that and still waits for the Meteor to hit though, that's why I think it's bull, it shouldn't be taken seriously.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Featherine said:


> Oh yeah... No biggy, it's not like you spend half the game looking for that thing right ? Come on, I think someone already posted the "real" and original Supernova, it's nothing like all the fluff that has been added in Western versions. I wouldn't even call it an outlier, I'd call it outright not canon but well, it's there. It still doesn't make a lick of damn sense that he's capable of that and still waits for the Meteor to hit though, that's why I think it's bull, it shouldn't be taken seriously.



No

The western version was retconned into the international release and is the one continuously referenced in shit like ultimania omega.

It also is canon, the only issue with it stems from the fact the attack existed in crisis core.

The rest?  A non issue.  Sephiroth is batshit insane and the premise of Meteor has already been invalidated by his Safer Form being near godhood to start with.

EDIT - the fuck is up with phone posting that leads to my posts ending up with stupid icons in the top left corner...


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

The International version was actually made because Japanese people didn't have Rubis/Emerald weapons challenges in their versions at first, along with a few other things. It's purpose wasn't to retcon anything, just give access to the new western content to everyone if I recall.

Supernova appears in Crisis Core ? You mean the Fan Club guy mentioning it ? I thought that was just a fun little nugget added for people who played the Original, nothing more... After all, at the time, that Limit didn't even exist in the first place...

Anyway, why exactly did this last more than 2 pages ? Cloud should win pretty handily, what's the problem exactly ? I've seen Multiversal Sephiroth but that's obviously bull. Please tell me it's bs and that I'm not a retard for thinking that


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm aware of all that.  Doesn't invalidate that fact that everything added to the international release ended up retconning parts of the original release and the subsequent ultimania continued to reference the shit from the international game as opposed to what was originally  in the games.

So, unless you want to start claiming we never saw the weapons fly out of crater, ruby and emerald don't exist in canon, and that you never actually fight the diamond weapon?

Drop the bile, because your argument there lacks any validity.

It did exist back then, it's referenced in the Crisis Core ultimania too.  It's not just a random fandom nod, and you have no reason to conclude it is.  That's at best an opinion based argument... which lacks any sort of validity.

This lasted so long because shooting the shit, boredom, and Megatron apparently wanting to debate MVC Sephiroth here.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

. 

The CC statement is what you call "exposition/world of god". It both explains what SN is and makes the attack canon.

Super Nova can be interpreted as a universe creation feat (the universe it take place it is most likely created by Sephiroth). And since AC Sephiroth appears to easily be several times stronger than Kadaj, whos no weaker than Safer Sephiroth...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Once more, we can sort of understand where the universal comes from... even if the interpretation doesn't hold any real water (if you want to make a case for it, best try and translate the Ultimania Omega explanation in full).

Multiversal is pushing it and lacks much credibility.

Multiversal is more than just being several times stronger than a universal being.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Once more, we can sort of understand where the universal comes from... even if the interpretation doesn't hold any real water (if you want to make a case for it, best try and translate the *Ultimania Omega explanation* in full).
> .


What explanation?


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm aware of all that.  Doesn't invalidate that fact that everything added to the international release ended up retconning parts of the original release and the subsequent ultimania continued to reference the shit from the international game as opposed to what was originally  in the games.
> 
> So, unless you want to start claiming we never saw the weapons fly out of crater, ruby and emerald don't exist in canon, and that you never actually fight the diamond weapon?
> 
> ...



Ermm... You might want to re-read my very first post. I said that I would like to call it personally not canon "but it's there", I just don't like how they changed it, is all I meant with that sentence. I never said that since Ruby and Emerald weren't in the originals they're not canon...

The fact it's referenced everywhere is enough for me. the Crisis Core Fan Club thing though is definitely just a little wink for people who played the original, it's purpose is not to say "oh hai Supernova's legit dudes!" as it'd be pretty pointless, it's there to say "if you played the game you know what I'm talking about sir!". 

That thing happened, whether you call it outlier or think it's legit is up to you, but it happened there's no denying that and there's no need to put a statement in a game where said attack doesn't even exist yet (didn't exist in the GAME's timeline I mean). Aka, just a little bonus for fans.

In short, I don't really see what we're disagreeing on here to be honest. I won't believe in Universal stuff though, link to Ultimania Omega thing ? Would like to see for myself if there's something that could validate it.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Megatron said:


> In the primary canon there's no mention of the existence of other universes/dimensions. Even the summoned beasts come to existence only upon summon, as shown in AC, so my point still stands.



However, the bit about the connection between FFVII and Tactics is something I've taken directly out of the Ultimania, as well. It should then carry as much weight as Supernova's entry.

I understand the interpretation here, but its far more likely that its just another universe already existing. Supernova carries the power of an exploding star, as its entrey says, so that's what I think you should focus on if you intend to argue for it.



			
				Chaos Theory said:
			
		

> It did exist back then, it's referenced in the Crisis Core ultimania too. It's not just a random fandom nod, and you have no reason to conclude it is. That's at best an opinion based argument... which lacks any sort of validity.



It is indeed referenced in the CC Ultimania, but if we take a look at the entry itself;



It only mentions it in the context of FFVII, and in the context of Crisis Core, its only an answer to the Club's questionnaire.
And I think the Club's questionaire is mostly composed of meta-fictional references, as they mention Cloud and Omnislash by name as well.

So its likely that the attack did not exist in Crisis Core. I also kind of take note that it isn't exactly stated as Sephiroth's strongest technique in AC/C or overall, as, once again, I believe Octaslash took that stage in AC/C because the thought of a Supernova definitely wouldn't fit AC/C's more realistic take on a Final Fantasy setting. Further, Supernova has no path into becoming a stronger attack, while Octaslash simply depends on how much energy Sephiroth expends in the Limit.

PS; Scratch that, they don't mention Cloud, upon further research.
They do mention Omnislash, however.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Megatron said:


> What explanation?





There's another scan on the FF wiki that comes before this one, but fuck more phone linking.


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> There's another scan on the FF wiki that comes before this one, but fuck more phone linking.



Thanks for the link, here's translation:



スーパーノヴァ　(インターナショナル版)
Supernova (INTERNATIONAL VERSION)

左ページのつづき
Continuation from the left page

First Pic -> 流星はさらに、太陽系最大の惑星JUPITER(木星=mokusei/Jupiter's name)に接近。
The Meteor approaches more and more from the Solar System's Largest Planet, Jupiter.

Second Pic -> ガズ惑星である木星の中心をつらぬく。
The Meteor runs right through the Giant Planet's core.

Third Pic -> 巨大な穴の闇いた木星は四方八方へ光を放ち、大爆発。
Light errupts from the giant hole in Jupiter, huge explosion ensues.

...................... Honestly the only thing it does is describe what happens in the pictures. Nothing new, it's just a description. The only thing interesting is that since it doesn't mention Sephiroth disappearing it probably means that Sephiroth stands in the middle of it. But I guess that was pretty obvious to begin with.

EDIT: Just saw the page before, I'll check after dinner if there's anything more interesting. If there's any feat it should be in there, as it's the moment where all the claimed Universal stuff happens right ?


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

That's abit dissapointing, but I guess all it really means is that the developers probably didn't give it much thought beyond 'Star exploding'.


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

Wait for a bit...
According to the first scan, even the Original Japanese version was Solar System Buster.



スーパーノヴァ　(オリジナル版)
Supernova (Original Version)

The sentence is under the 3rd pic:
すさまじい爆風と衝撃が、太陽系のすべての惑星に押し寄せる
susamajii bakufuu to shougeki ga, taiyoukei no subete no wakusei ni oshiyoseru
A terrific blast and impact overwhelm all the planets of the Solar System.

Now, what the hell ? ... Trying to read the rest but, damn, the characters are so packed and small they're hard to read. Any higher quality version ? I'm really interested now, I always kind of denied Solar System level for Seph but if even the original was intended to be this way...


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

What's more important would be the first 8 or so scans from the updated version, though.

But its pretty impressive to be able to translate moonspeak, you know! Thanks for the help.


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

True, I was just a bit surprised. Glad it helps !

Here’s the translation for updated ver:



スーパーノヴァ　(インターナショナル版)
Supernova (INTERNATIONAL VERSION)

First pic -> 両手をかかげ、セフィロスがその場から姿を消す (kanjis like 場 are a bitch to read with this picture...)
Rising both of his hands in the air, Sephiroth disappears from the place.

Second pic (Probably the most important here) -> 背景の雲がこまかく割れ、破片が宇宙空間へと吸いこまれていく
The Clouds in the Background disappear like broken glass, the fragments are sucked into Outer Space.

Third pic -> 太陽系の星々の位置を表した星図が映し出され
The position of each Planet in the Solar System is displayed on the Star Map (? Don't know if there's a real scientific term for that).

The rest of the pictures go back to just description like before, nothing interesting.

So... What to make of this ? It seems like Sephiroth merely opens his pocket Dimension to access the "real" Universe where he makes some shit happen. But that wouldn't explain how come he can make that happen multiple times...

I don't know anymore


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2014)

I posted the original Japanese video you know -.-


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

I figured it'd only explain what was seen in the animation, but I figured... hey, if something about creating a dimension is going to be mentioned... it'd be in the explanation of the animation.

It's not, so that argument is as dead in the water as it has been.

As for multiple castings?

He just opens it up to a different pocket dimension each time he uses the limit

At least, in story that'd make the most sense

This is FF, not like shit like the inter-dimensional rift hasn't established the games take place in a loosely connected multiverse.

However?

The actual explanation is that with the limited memory space and tech they had available, it'd be bullshit to expect numerous varying animations

It'd be bullshit nowadays for the same reasons, but this flies over the heads of most people


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Don't suppose you could look at   too?


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 19, 2014)

Wait, wait, wait ? Since WHEN are we taking in account Gameplay Mechanics ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Wait, wait, wait ? Since WHEN are we taking in account Gameplay Mechanics ?



Since you old fucks never learned what game mechanics were?

An in battle cutscene will never be, and should have never been, a fucking game mechanic chuckles.

The fact I even need to pussy foot it with confirmation from word of god that, yes, the animation an attack does exactly what we see?

Is pretty fucking stupid in and of itself.


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## Darth Niggatron (Oct 19, 2014)

Pretty sure this doesn't fall under the realm of gameplay mechanics.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I figured it'd only explain what was seen in the animation, but I figured... hey, if something about creating a dimension is going to be mentioned... it'd be in the explanation of the animation.
> 
> It's not, so that argument is as dead in the water as it has been.
> 
> ...


Still, AC demonstrates that the summoned beasts don't preexist. They materialize from the LS upon summon. Then why would their dimensions preexist?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Megatron said:


> Still, AC demonstrates that the summoned beasts don't preexist. They materialize from the LS upon summon. Then why would their dimensions preexist?



Bahamut SIN/Tremor is an anomaly.

The CC Ultimania paints it as the lone exception to any rule regarding summons in FFVII.

You really need to drop it dude.  If the original Japanese text, explaining nearly frame by frame what's going on didn't mention it?

Odds are you're over thinking shit.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Even so, Sephiroth's will allows him power superior to the realm of natural materia comfortably. It allowed his soul to resist the flow of the Lifestream;



			
				Case of Shinra said:
			
		

> Rufus thought about death. So my spirit will become one with the Lifestream that courses through this Planet. I wonder if father will be there too. Does consciousness have a shape? No, such a powerful flow of energy would shatter the consciousness of any single human being easily.



In-fact, only Cloud, Sephiroth's and Aerith's souls didn't become shattered by the current, although for different reasons. Same thing with Holy.

Its not unsual to think that he could mimic abilities like the Lifestream being able to connect to other worlds. Cloud in Tactics stated that he could feel The Lifestream's flow a dimension away.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Bahamut SIN/Tremor is an anomaly.
> 
> The CC Ultimania paints it as the lone exception to any rule regarding summons in FFVII.


The only difference is that Sin interacts with the real world: 



			
				Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection said:
			
		

> *Summoned Beasts*
> 
> Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children’s Bahamut Tremor, was a special summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.


Source:


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Yeah, but given the line from Case of Yuffie;



			
				Case of Yuffie said:
			
		

> Shinra’s research, technology and knowledge of the planet’s life allowed them to bestow “powers” into the materia Cloud and his party possessed that wasn’t possible to produce naturally.



And the power of Tremor's feats -- its reasonable to assume that he is one of those Materia created by Shinra.

Because its such a special summon, though, you can't equate its conditions to others.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

The guide points out the only difference between Tremor and the rest. Other than that it's a normal summon, unless - of course - proven otherwise.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Shouldn't the fact that its clearly a special summoning materia already outline the fact that you can't apply it's rules to regular summons? Of course Bahamut Tremor won't come from another dimension -- it never had one in the first place, because its one of the unnatural, highly destructive materia created by Shinra. I don't think you can look at its particular case, and induce the rest from it, because its clearly a special case.

Besides, as the post before my last one said, that doesn't mean that Sephiroth's Supernova is creating a universe. Its just as plausible that he switches dimensions.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Shouldn't the fact that its clearly a special summoning materia already outline the fact that you can't apply it's rules to regular summons?


There's only one difference, as stated above. Other than that it's a regular summon.




Alucardemi said:


> Of course Bahamut Tremor won't come from another dimension -- it never had one in the first place, because its one of the unnatural, highly destructive materia *created by Shinra*. I don't think you can look at its particular case, and induce the rest from it, because its clearly a special case.


Proof?


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I figured it'd only explain what was seen in the animation, but I figured... hey, if something about creating a dimension is going to be mentioned... it'd be in the explanation of the animation.



Makes sense, it was why I asked for the link, I figured too that if there really was something involving Universe creation they'd mention it. And I guess we have our answer.



> It's not, so that argument is as dead in the water as it has been.



Totally agree, it seemed pretty far-fetched to begin with, but at least we're now sure, which is good.



> As for multiple castings?
> 
> He just opens it up to a different pocket dimension each time he uses the limit
> 
> ...



Thought so. And yeah, they already had trouble making the entire thing hold on 4 Discs, making anymore animations would've been stupid. It's not like they bother with that even as of today like you said.

Not like you need Universe level to deal with Sasuke anyway.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't suppose you could look at   too?



What exactly am I searching, same thing as before/Universe-creating stuff ? From what I'm seeing of it, the only thing important here is:
Third pic -> 敵はくぼみのなかの闇へ吸い込まれていき
The opponent (party) is sucked up into a cavity filled with Darkness.

So, as presumed, the average summon sucks the party into their territory/own dimension I think.

Or am I searching for something else ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 19, 2014)

Featherine said:


> Makes sense, it was why I asked for the link, I figured too that if there really was something involving Universe creation they'd mention it. And I guess we have our answer.



Indeed.



> Totally agree, it seemed pretty far-fetched to begin with, but at least we're now sure, which is good.



Yep, always good to have that.

I try keeping an open mind just in case, but I figured it was bullshit even without the text.



> Thought so. And yeah, they already had trouble making the entire thing hold on 4 Discs, making anymore animations would've been stupid. It's not like they bother with that even as of today like you said.



It was 3 discs IIRC, but yeah... that's pushing the system to the limit as it is 



> Not like you need Universe level to deal with Sasuke anyway.



True, but this topic kind of derailed on page 1.



> What exactly am I searching, same thing as before/Universe-creating stuff ? From what I'm seeing of it, the only thing important here is:
> Third pic -> 敵はくぼみのなかの闇へ吸い込まれていき
> The opponent (party) is sucked up into a cavity filled with Darkness.



So, more dimension shit, like we knew.

Cool.



> So, as presumed, the average summon sucks the party into their territory/own dimension I think.



Yep, as stated here and CC's ultimania more or less.



> Or am I searching for something else ?



Just check out what Arthur does with Excalibur I guess?

Kind of curious if he cut through the dimension to send them back, or it shattered on its own.

If the former, guess the summon has some hax to it.

If the latter, no big deal.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

How do you know that its the only difference? Bahamut Shin is clearly a completely different kind of beast. You absolutely cannot, through induction, apply his standards through everyone else. That would be fallacious. The simple absence of mentioning the rest of the differences doesn't mean you can assume that there are none.

As for the second part, Case of Yuffie makes mention that all the highly-destructive materia that were unnaturally strong were given to Cloud for safe-keeping, as he had the most knowledge of 'destructive materia'.
Since Bahamut Tremor was taken from Cloud, and all the destructive, unnatural materia was given to Cloud, it makes sense to call him one, especially given its feats, portrayal and stated specialness.

Further, even if all of that wasn't the case, the theory that Sephiroth merely transports to another dimension seems valid, too, and it has groundings on the fact that the Lifestream can lead to other universes.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> How do you know that its the only difference? Bahamut Shin is clearly a completely different kind of beast. You absolutely cannot, through induction, apply his standards through everyone else. That would be fallacious. The simple absence of mentioning the rest of the differences doesn't mean you can assume that there are none.


I don't really have to prove the negative (that there are no other differences). It's up to you to prove that he's any different from other summons other than what's officially stated.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Well, there is something you have to prove. That its in the same wave-length as other summons.

That's not a premise that has been proven simply because he's also a summon, when he's an unnatural one. We don't know, so you can't just affirm and extrapolate to Sephiroth.


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just check out what Arthur does with Excalibur I guess?
> 
> Kind of curious if he cut through the dimension to send them back, or it shattered on its own.
> 
> ...



No problem, so the last 2 pics are the most relevant:



-> エクスカリバーの衝撃波が広がり、空間にひびは入っていく
The shockwave caused by Excalibur spreads out and a crack forms in Space.

Last Pic -> 空間がこまかく割れ、次元のはざまが消滅する
The Space is cut down, the DIMENSION thus vanishes.

Holy shit, the thing actually uses the word DIMENSION (次元 = jigen).

So yeah, 100% definitely will-never-be-questioned-again summons with pocket dimensions.
I guess that settles this case at least.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

So...

Arthur can cut dimensions?


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## Featherine (Oct 19, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> So...
> 
> Arthur can cut dimensions?



To be fair, it doesn't seem like his dimension is anything big or filled with other Celestial Bodies. Few of the pictures mention that the "Space" is just a Darkness-filled place (sometimes filled with red), it could be any size but I don't think it's really the size you'd expect of a "proper" Dimension. 

The important thing is that it is indeed a separate dimension, no matter it's size it's still detached from the real world.

Well still, I think it's pretty clear that he indeed cut through the bond between his Dimension and the one where the fight take place so... Make of that what you will.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

Sounds like the dimension is destroyed in the end.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 19, 2014)

Yeah, I don't think its absolutely impressive stuff, either. FFVII has dabbled in dimensions before -- I think Sephiroth was able to skip into a summon's dimension at the start of CC, for instance.

Not sure if its really all that useful, maybe against dimensional bfr's, the verse has a solid standing to argue a defense against, but not much else.


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## Megatron (Oct 19, 2014)

In Sephiroth's (and per proxy Cloud's) case it's very impressive, as the size of SN's dimension reflects the power of his will.


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## FrozenFeathers (Oct 19, 2014)

Haku is LS.
Sasuke moves faster.
Use Einstein's law, Sasuke produces enough Force to accelerate mass at beyond 3x10^8m/s
Mass of object at LS=infinity
F=MA
F50Kg)x(Infinity)
F=Infinity
Power=ForcexVelocity
PInfinity)x(mach30000)
Power=Infinity

Last time I checked the mass of an universe is finite.
Sasuke can destroy infinite number of universes in 0 seconds


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## Xelloss (Oct 19, 2014)

Frozen this is a warning please, first and foremost that's no light speed even if the intent of the author was to express "super fast".

Or else even much much stronger characters won't take as much time as he to get to point a to b, even Yondaime couldn't attain that speed.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 19, 2014)

Xelloss said:


> Frozen this is a warning please, first and foremost that's no light speed even if the intent of the author was to express "super fast".
> 
> Or else even much much stronger characters won't take as much time as he to get to point a to b, even Yondaime couldn't attain that speed.



I'm 90% sure he is just mocking the "multiversal seraph" bs
then again , who knows ...


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## Katsuargi (Oct 19, 2014)

Xelloss trolling or just not reading the thread?


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## Expelsword (Oct 19, 2014)

Xelloss said:


> Frozen this is a warning please, first and foremost that's no light speed even if the intent of the author was to express "super fast".



I'm sure he was joking.


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## FrozenFeathers (Oct 20, 2014)

Xelloss said:


> Frozen this is a warning please, first and foremost
> 1)that's no light speed even if the
> 2)intent of the author was to express "super fast".
> 
> ...



1)Now now, Kishi owns Naruto, whatever he says is fact.
2)The author intends what he wants, there is nothing we can do about it.

3)Which means the Naruto planet is huge, I mean large star size huge.
4)Oh that was just one of Kishi 's inconsistencies. We just have to ignore it and believe whatever we want.And who says yondime is stronger than Haku? Yondime never defeated Haku so there is no evidence. The world works on evidence.




You see, I can do it WAYYYYYYYYY better than Megatron
That oaf just ruined many pages with repeated spamming so think a little bit and decide whom to ban.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 20, 2014)

Haku's power alone is incredibly plot driven and debatable


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 20, 2014)

FrozenFeathers said:


> 1)Now now, Kishi owns Naruto, whatever he says is fact.
> 2)The author intends what he wants, there is nothing we can do about it.
> 
> 3)Which means the Naruto planet is huge, I mean large star size huge.
> ...



Are you for real?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 20, 2014)

Actually I'm just going to lock this. Lord knows why it wasn't reported on page 1.


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