# Where does Itachi rank among these groups?



## Kyu (May 22, 2015)

Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.

Take homie's entire arsenal into account. 


_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_

-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_

- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


These lists are my own, so make yours however you see fit.


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## Kai (May 22, 2015)

_The Hokage_
Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama/*Itachi*
Hiruzen
Tsunade
Kakashi


_The Sannin_

*Itachi*
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade

_Previous Five Kage_

*Itachi*
Onoki
Tsunade
Gaara
A (4th)
Mei


_Edo Kage_

*Itachi*
A (3rd)
Mu/Gengetsu
Rasa



_The Akatsuki_

Obito
Pain
*Itachi*
Orochimaru
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan


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## Bonly (May 22, 2015)

_*The Hokage*_


-Naruto
-Hashi
-Minato/*Itachi*
-Tobi
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_


-Orochi 
-*Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_


-*Itachi*
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei
-A


_*Edo Kage*_


-*Itachi*
-Mu/The French Dude
-Sandaime Raikage
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_


-Obito 
-Pain
-*Itachi*
-Kisame
-Sasori/Deidara/Kakuzu/Konan
-Hidan


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## StickaStick (May 22, 2015)

HOKAGE
Naruto 
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
*Itachi*
Tsunade
Hiruzen (Old; Prime would be above Itachi obviously)
Kakashi

SANNIN
Oro (ET)
*Itachi */ Jiraiya (SM)
Tsunade

PREVIOUS FIVE KAGE
*Itachi*
Onoki
Gaara
Tsunade
Ei
Mei

EDO KAGE
*Itachi*
Sandaime Raikage
Mū
Gengetsu
Rasa

AKATSUKI
Obito (Rinnegan; Single-MS is below Nagato)
Nagato
*Itachi*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidera
Kakazu
Konan
Hidan


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.
> 
> ...



Hokage:
Hashirama
Naruto(Which Naruto? RSM?)(How would he survive TSukuyomi?)
Itachi/Minato
Hiruzen
Tobirama
Kakashi
Tsuande

Sannin:
Itachi
Jiraiya
Oro
Tsunade

Previous Kage:
Itachi
Ohnoki/A
A/Ohnoki
Tsunade
Mei
Gaara

Edo Kage:
Itachi
Muu/Gengetsu
Gengetsu/Muu
Third Raikage
Rasa

Akatsuki:
Itachi/Obito/Pain
Obito/Itachi/Pain
Pain/Itachi/obito
Sasori
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan(Too careless a fighter)


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

Bonly said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> 
> -Naruto
> ...


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## RBL (May 22, 2015)

*The Hokage*

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-*Itachi*
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi [Kakashi > tobirama,Hiruzen and Tsunade btw]


*The Sannin*

*-Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

*Previous Five Kage*

*-Itachi*
-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


*Edo Kage*
*-itachi*
- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



*The Akatsuki*

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
*-Itachi*
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


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## ARGUS (May 22, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.
> 
> ...


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## Kyu (May 22, 2015)

> Naruto(Which Naruto? RSM?)



Chapter 700/Gaiden Naruto. I'm trying to save Hokage 1-6 from the humiliation of being weaker than a teenager.


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## Cord (May 23, 2015)

_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama, *Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_

*-Itachi*
-Orochimaru
-Jiraiya
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

*-Itachi*
-Onoki
-Ei
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei

_*Edo Kage*_

*-Itachi*
-Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa

_*The Akatsuki*_

-Obito
-Nagato
*-Itachi*
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

The Hokage *TOP*

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Tobirama 
4. Minato, *Itachi*
5. Hiruzen
6. Tsunade, Kakashi

The Sannin *TOP*

1. *Itachi.*
2. Jiraiya
3. Orochimaru
4. Tsunade

Previous Five Kage *TOP*

1. A (4th), *Itachi*
2. Onoki
3. Gaara
4. Mei
5. Tsunade

Edo Kage *TOP*

1. Mu, *Itachi*
2. Third Raikage
3. Gengetsu
4. Rasa

The Akatsuki *TOP*

1. Obito (MS)
2. Pein
3. *Itachi*
4. Kisame
5. Sasori
6. Kakuzu, Deidara
8. Konan
9. Hidan


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

_*The Hokage*_

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. *Itachi*
4. Minato 
5. Tobirama
6. Hiruzen
7. Tsunade
8. Kakashi

_*The Sannin*_

1. Orochimaru
*2. Itachi*
3. Jiraiya
4. Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

*1. Itachi*
2. Onoki
3. Gaara
4. Ei
5. Tsunade
6. Mei

_*Edo Kage*_

*1. Itachi*
2. Third Raikage
3. Mu
4. Gengetsu
5. Rasa

_*The Akatsuki*_

1. Nagato
*2. Itachi*
3. Obito (MS)
4. Kisame
5. Deidara
6. Orochimaru
7. Sasori
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Hidan


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


>



End of series Orochimaru was stupid-powerful due to his Edo Tensei.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> The Hokage
> 
> 1. Naruto
> 2. Hashirama
> ...



Itachi cant beat Tobirama, but a fight with Minato is very debatable.



> The Sannin
> 
> 1. Orochimaru
> 2. Itachi
> ...



But without it, Itachi beats him.



> Previous Five Kage
> 
> 1. Itachi
> 2. Onoki
> ...



Gaara saved V2 Ei in his fight with Sasuke due to a free fall and Onoki cant operate in Ei's speed.

A fight between Ei and Itachi is very debatable. Itachi is not fast enough to catch Ei with his arsenal, but I doubt Ei can damage Itachi's Susanoo. Maybe he can exhauste Itachi, maybe not.



> Edo Kage
> 
> 1. Itachi
> 2. Third Raikage
> ...



Mu can become invisible. In that state, he cant be sensed. Can he be seen by Sharingan? That's debatable. Itachi has Sharingan's precognition, but i doubt he is fast enough to dodge Mu's Jinton which he can shot right after becoming visible.

Also, i highly doubt The Third Raikage is fast enough to dodge his Jinton, which he probably cant tank. 



> The Akatsuki
> 
> 1. Nagato
> 2. Itachi
> ...



Itachi has literally no chance against MS Obito and Pein.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi cant beat Tobirama



If Tobirama's willingness to look into Sasuke's EMS was any indication, Itachi has a _very_ good chance of beating Tobirama. Genjutsu in general is a very useful tool against Hiraishin users that can evade virtually all ninjutsu and taijutsu.​


StarWanderer said:


> A fight between Ei and Itachi is very debatable. Itachi is not fast enough to catch Ei with his arsenal, but I doubt Ei can damage Itachi's Susanoo. Maybe he can exhauste Itachi, maybe not.



I don't believe A's v2 shunshin lasts more than a few seconds, and that because of its "tailed beast" cost, it can't be used more than a few times. If a ninja can block his v2 burst, then they only have to deal with a v1 Raikage, who base Itachi can evade and genjutsu.​


StarWanderer said:


> Mu can become invisible. In that state, he cant be sensed. Can he be seen by Sharingan? That's debatable. Itachi has Sharingan's precognition, but i doubt he is fast enough to dodge Mu's Jinton which he can shot right after becoming visible. Also, i highly doubt The Third Raikage is fast enough to dodge his Jinton, which he probably cant tank.



Madara was able to defeat Onoki and Mu at once while holding back and with little difficulty. Madara possesses nothing that can block the Jinton, meaning he evaded. I don't consider Madara much faster than Itachi or Raikage, so they can all dodge it in my opinion.​


StarWanderer said:


> Itachi has literally no chance against MS Obito.



Itachi is exceptionally well designed to defeat MS Obito. Even Obito's greatest tool (Izanagi) is hard countered by Izanami, and unlike Kabuto, Obito really only uses one offensive jutsu, which makes trapping him in a loop with clones that much easier.​


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 23, 2015)

_*Hokages*_
-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama/*Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_

-Orochimaru
-*Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

-*Itachi*
-Onoki
-Ei
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_

-*Itachi*
-Mu
-A
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-*Itachi*
-Kisame
-Deidara
-Sasori
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan
-Zetsu[/QUOTE]

This is how i see it for the most part.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> If Tobirama's willingness to look into Sasuke's EMS was any indication, Itachi has a very good chance of beating Tobirama. Genjutsu in general is a very useful tool against Hiraishin users that can evade virtually all ninjutsu and taijutsu.



Are you sure Tobirama was looking exactly at his ayes? Besides, he was an Edo.

Tobirama has tons of experience against Sharingan users. And he is a lot quicker then Itachi. Edo Tobirama marked Juubito, who's not just faster then Itachi - he is faster then Obito. After that, his clone reacted to exploding Gudoudama and teleported it back to Juubito. Edo Tobirama demonstrated reflexes and striking speed faster than that of KCM Minato. Alive Tobirama is faster then Edo Tobirama, because Edo obviously effects physical stats. 

Tobirama can evade Itachi's genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Izanami (a complete non-factor in this fight) and any other of his techniques. 

And Itachi's stamina is not good enough to fight for long.

So it is safe to say that Tobirama is above Itachi. Probably even in another tier, because of a very huge speed difference.



> I don't believe A's v2 shunshin lasts more than a few seconds, and that because of its "tailed beast" cost, it can't be used more than a few times. If a ninja can block his v2 burst, then they only have to deal with a v1 Raikage, who base Itachi can beat via genjutsu.



That's *if* a ninja can block V2's burst. Maybe Ei cant crack Itachi's Susanoo which was destroyed by Kirin, maybe he can. I have some doubts about that, but i dont realy think V2 is so short. Ei had enough chakra to fight Sasuke longer imao. Plus, Ei used V2 for some time during his fight with Edo Madara and his clones alongside other Kage.

As i said, very debatable. 



> Madara was able to defeat Onoki and Mu at once while holding back and with little difficulty. Madara possesses nothing that can block the Jinton, meaning he evaded. I don't consider Madara much faster than Itachi or Raikage, so they can all dodge it in my opinion.



PS can block the Jinton. And lets be honest - Itachi is not even close to EMS Madara in terms of speed. Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch and reacted to Gokage without any problem. Edo Madara's clone's Susanoo punch was so fast V2 Ei had to block it instead of dodging it. Alive Madara, who's faster then Edo Madara, without ayes, outperformed both SM Naruto and Sai in almost a moment. Itachi's reaction speed is great (although partly thanks to his MS), but what speed feats does he have? 

Plus, that fight happened off-panel. Mu and Onoki could get caught by Madara's firepower.



> Itachi is exceptionally well designed to defeat MS Obito. Even Obito's greatest tool (Izanagi) is hard countered by Izanami, and unlike Kabuto, Obito really only uses one offensive jutsu, which makes trapping him in a loop with clones that much easier.



Itachi doesnt have any counter to MS Obito's speed and Kamui. It's all about their speed difference, thanks to which Obito wont have much of a problem with Itachi.


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## Deer Lord (May 23, 2015)

Peak is edo itachi, cause infinite chakra.
But I'll rate living itachi

The Hokage:
-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Tobirama
- Minato
-*Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


The Sannin:
- *Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

Previous Five Kage:
-Onoki
- *Itachi*
-Ei
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


Edo Kage:
- Third Raikage
-Mu
- *Itachi*
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



The Akatsuki:
-Pein
-Obito (MS)
- *Itachi*
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Kakuzu
-Deidara
-Konan
-Hidan


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

So many people rate Minato above Tobirama although Edo Tobirama's reflexes and striking speed were faster then those of KCM Minato...


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato / Itachi
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_


-Itachi
gap
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

-Itachi
-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_


-Itachi
- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

[FONT="Book Antiqua"
-Pein / -Itachi
-Obito (MS)
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan[/FONT]

and oh :

Orochimaru's contribution in the war arc : [COLOR="Red"]Nice[/COLOR]
Nice

Combat-wise he is irrelevant.

Also ET isn't his power. Itachi said so : Nice 
So it must be true


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...



Since when Itachi is above MS Obito? Since when Itachi is in Pein's tier?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Since when Itachi is above MS Obito? Since when Itachi is in Pein's tier?



Since the day Itachi dropped his big balls on the table.


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## Umbrella (May 23, 2015)

_The Hokage_
Nardo
Hashirama
Minato / *Itachi*
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Kakashi


_The Sannin_
Orochimaru (Edo Tensei)
*Itachi*
Jiraiya
Tsunade

_Gokage_

*Itachi*
Onoki
A / Tsunade
Gaara
Mei


_Edo Kage_

*Itachi*
Third Raikage
Mu / Gengetsu
Rasa



_The Akatsuki_

Obito
Pain
*Itachi*
Sasori
Deidara / Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since the day Itachi dropped his big balls on the table.



In his dreams. Itachi cant do anything about MS Obito's Kamui and speed. And he is not in the same tier as Pain, who cant counter Itachi without much of a problem.


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## Kyu (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> So many people rate Minato above Tobirama although Edo Tobirama's reflexes and striking speed were faster then those of KCM Minato...



Those people know outliers when they see them. If Tobirama's _clone _ was legitimately able to out-speed Kyuubi Minato and get the drop on Juubito, then the _real_ Tobirama wouldn't have gotten shut down like he did against a vastly inferior Madara.

Doesn't help Minato's shunshin is > Tobirama's

A technique capable of increasing speed during combat as Sasuke demonstrated against Tobi.[1][2]

Bar their utilization of the body flicker to enhance movement, the S/T Hokage's stats are comparable - for the most part. 

Minato's refined FTG and advanced fūinjutsu grant him the edge over his predecessor.


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## Ghost (May 23, 2015)

Hokage:

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato/Itachi
Tobirama
Kakashi
Tsunade 
Hiruzen

Sannin:

Itachi
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade

Previous Gokage:

Itachi
Ei
Onoki
Gaara/Tsunade
Mei

Edo Kage:

Itachi
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Gengetsu
Rasa

Akatsuki:

Obito/Pain/Itachi
Kisame
Deidara
Sasori/Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Umbrella (May 23, 2015)

I actually think Tobirama is more versatile tbh. Suitons, Clones, Edo Tensei etc.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

Umbrella said:


> I actually think Tobirama is more versatile tbh. Suitons, Clones, Edo Tensei etc.



Overall yeah, but Minato has more tricks with Hirashin, which is both of their strongest move.



StarWanderer said:


> In his dreams. Itachi cant do anything about MS Obito's Kamui and speed. And he is not in the same tier as Pain, who cant counter Itachi without much of a problem.



Izanami GG.

Pain against Itachi is debatable. I'd favor Pain more times than not, mostly because the numbers is a bad match up for Itachi, but I'd put them in the save level more less.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.
> 
> ...




he is on the same level as tobirama so 3rd best. 



> _*The Sannin*_
> 
> -Jiraiya
> -Orochimaru
> -Tsunade


_*Previous Five Kage*_

above all the sannin



> -Ei
> -Onoki
> -Tsunade
> -Gaara
> -Mei



top with onoki. I don't see A as the strongest. though A has the best shot of defeating itachi. so I guess in this case u are right. top with A then



> _*Edo Kage*_
> 
> - Third Raikage
> -Mu
> ...



above all the edo kage



> _*The Akatsuki*_
> 
> -Pein
> -Obito (MS)
> ...



below obito. 



> These lists are my own, so make yours however you see fit.



no need to do that


note all in all bar the hokage itachi would be more or less at the top of the list because 
MS> all the other groups of people 

MS>Sm and all its perks at jiriaya level
MS>edo tensei+yamata and all orochimaru jutsu
MS>byakuyo
MS>jinton. (yes jinton is hax however a triple combination of ability is more difficult for the rest of the Naruto world to deal with than jinton)
MS> raiton chakra mode

however itachi has good and bad match ups. he could fodderize tsunade despite being on the same tier more or less. while I think he would horribly struggle with A
who I feel tsunade murders. 

it all depends on abilities. orochimaru with edo tensei is still weaker than itachi in direct combat or otherwise.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> Izanami GG.
> 
> Pain against Itachi is debatable. I'd favor Pain more times than not, mostly because the numbers is a bad match up for Itachi, but I'd put them in the save level more less.



Itachi wont stand long enough to use Izanami because of Obito's speed and Kamui. Obito Kamui's him in another dimension. 

Pain slaughters him with ST/CT. Itachi has no chance against Pain.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

not sure if this thread was about direct combat though
like again hirashin users will troll itachi in my opinion but it doesn't mean they are far above him

minato skill set simply>itachi

while tobirama isn't as fast ill put them on the same general level 

however the ability to  amaterasu is something both minato and tobirama can do while everyone else on that list bar orochimaru and A cant do nothing about


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> while tobirama isn't as fast ill put them on the same general level



Edo Tobirama marked Juubito thanks to his reaction speed and striking speed, KCM Edo Minato did nothing against Juubito and got his hand cut off. Edo Tobirama used his clone to react to exploding Gudoudama and send it back to Juubito, KCM Edo Minato stood there, waiting for Tobirama to save him. 

Yeah, "while Tobirama isnt as fast".


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## Umbrella (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Overall yeah, but Minato has more tricks with Hirashin, which is both of their strongest move.



Perhaps, but his exploding tag trick gives him a level of offense that Minato is sorely lacking.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

@starwanderer

tobirama said he is slower than minato the end of that discussion I don't know why u hopelessly and baseless argue 

minato uses hirashin better and has better shunshin by tobirama own admission 

tobirama don't spread kunai so the chances of him being unpredictable are much less. minato is a kunai spammer who got to the battlefield before the other hokage and had already spread 4 kunai around the juubi before people on the battlefield noticed he arrived 

tobirama feat of tagging juubito simply means minato in that situation would have done the same. that's it. 

I can say minato reacted to juubito who was mid omyoton about to kill Naruto and sasuke. 

hardly impressive what tobirama did. when compared to what minato does, u know the guy who fought wars and no one knew what he looked like.

@umbrella he has more offensive power and can am sure even use other jutsu through edo tensei. however considering most people don't have super strong defences. rasengan is usually more than enough to kill most


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## Deer Lord (May 23, 2015)

Minato and Tobirama are on par with each other.
while minato has speed and refined hiraishin, tobirama has a larger chakra pool and wider varity of moves.
If you ask me I'd take wider range of jutsu over minato's perks, but their general level is about the same.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Minato and Tobirama are on par with each other.
> while minato has speed and refined hiraishin, tobirama has a larger chakra pool and wider varity of moves.
> If you ask me I'd take wider range of jutsu over minato's perks, but their general level is about the same.



actually both haven't shown nearly enough to judge who has a wider variety of moves 

minato got sealing techniques and all frog related techniques most likely

while tobirama got more to show from ET, water jutsu and of course sealing techniques

no way to know for sure. tobirama did show more jutsu though. 

however showing more doesn't imply tobirama has more. 

they could be on par yes. however against itachi, minato comes off as a bigger threat to me. simply because of how he uses hirashin and he is faster. 

however to destroy large defences ill pick tobirama


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## Deer Lord (May 23, 2015)

Tobirama has the edge of inventing pretty much all the most useful jutsus
which mean he has them all mastered from the get go. (albiet being improved upon later by other shinobi)


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @starwanderer
> 
> tobirama said he is slower than minato the end of that discussion I don't know why u hopelessly and baseless argue
> 
> ...



It is more suitable for me to put here a facepalm smile. Because Tobirama never, ever said that Minato is faster then him. He said that Minato's Hiraishin is better and that Minato's Shunshin is faster. Shunshin has been used only for travel speed. Thats it.

If KCM Minato had reflexes as good as those of Tobirama, he would have marked Juubito's arm during that confrontation. But he failed to do anything. And later couldnt do anything with exploding Gudoudama, to which Tobirama's clone could react and send it back at Juubito.

He reacted to Obito's Gudoudama. Tobirama's clone reacted to Obito's exploding Gudoudama.

And that Minato was drastically amped by KCM. Alive Tobirama clearly has better reflexes and striking speed then alive base Minato.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

so minato has faster shunshin and better use of hirashin but minato isn't faster? 
allow me to put the facepalm for u  

feel free to show the canon statement where KCm minato was stated to be drastically amped? why more chakra

guess what both were Edo tensei so they have infinite levels of chakra no ? 

kishi nor I don't get what u read, he said minato was faster therefore he is. very simply put 

faster shunshin+ better use of hirashin makes minato faster and by a good margin

also tobirama said he cant eve use hirashin on the same level. minato chakra linked to everyone he can teleport the alliance. tobirama taps into that link can only teleport 2 people at a time. this is probably why team kinkaku 
killed him and he didn't just escape with saru and the others

he couldn't hirashin all of them


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## Eliyua23 (May 23, 2015)

Hokage

Naruto

Hashirama

Hiruzen

Tobirama/Itachi/Tsunade

Kakashi


Sannin

Orochimaru

Jiraiya/Itachi/Tsunade


Gokage

Itachi/Tsunade

Onoki

Gaara

Ei

Mei



Edo Kage

Itachi

3rd Raikage

Mu/Gengetsu

Rasa


Akatsuki

Pain/MS Obito

Itachi

Sasori

Kisame

Kakuzu

Deidara

Hidan


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Hokage:

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Edo-Minato
4. Tsunade [2.5 Years Byakugo]
5-8, Hiruzen [Prime], Minato, Tobirama, *Itachi [Edo]*
9-10. Old-Hiruzen,* Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight]*
11. Tsunade [War-Arc or less Byakugo]

Who knows how strong Kakashi was when he became Rokudaime 

Sannin:

1. Orochimaru [Edo Hokages]
2. Tsunade [2.5 Years Byakugo]
3. *Itachi [Edo]*
4. Jiraiya
5. Orochimaru [Part 1]
6. *Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight]*
7. Tsunade [War-Arc or less Byakugo]
8. Orochimaru [Missing Arms Body Failure]

Previous Five Kage:

1. Tsunade [2.5 Years Byakugo]
2-3. *Edo-Itachi* and Onoki
4-5. Gaara, *Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight] *
6. Tsunade [War-Arc or less Byakugo]
7. Ei
8. Mei

Edo Kage

1. *Itachi [Edo]*
2. Sandaime Raikage [w/ Amber Sealing Jar]
3-5. Mu, Gengetsu, *Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight*]
6. Rasa

The Akatsuki:

1. Nagato
2. Obito [MS]
3. Kisame [Hopped up on Hachibi Chakra]
4.* Itachi [Edo]*
5. Sasori
6. *Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke-Fight]*
7. Kakuzu
8. Deidara
9. Kisame [No notable amount of chakra absorbed]
10. Hidan

Konan and Zetsu are too tough to rank.

--------

Note this is based on pure combat ability, otherwise Tsunade would have ranked higher in most instances.


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## Eliyua23 (May 23, 2015)

I think the Edo perks put Itachi at Jiriaya's level not exceeding it


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so minato has faster shunshin and better use of hirashin but minato isn't faster?
> allow me to put the facepalm for u
> 
> feel free to show the canon statement where KCm minato was stated to be drastically amped? why more chakra
> ...



I am talking about their reflexes. And Tobirama definetely has better reflexes. Because he has better feats in that department.

So how's your facepalm, bro? 

KCM amped Naruto yet it wont amp Edo Minato because of something. And you are putting facepalms on somebody? 

Their chakra regenerates infinetely. And adding KCM which canonically amps reaction speed, movement speed and Shunshin's speed will amp Edo Minato drastically, just like it amped Naruto. KCM's chakra canonically affects physical stats.

Ok, bring here a scan where Tobirama says Minato is faster. Lets see what you read.

Minato has better Hiraishin, faster Shunshin, but his reflexes? His striking speed? Reaction speed? CQC movement speed? Yeah, thats what i am talking about. 

So what?


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## Bonly (May 23, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


>



Edo Tensei is one hell of a power boost depending on the level of the Edo and I'm sure you saw the end of the War arc to see what the four Hokage can do. Now add them along to Orochi's own skills in general and he's easily above Itachi though I can understand your doubt with it's potential down side


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think the Edo perks put Itachi at Jiriaya's level not exceeding it


I think they are close, but Edo-Perks should edge things in Itachi's favor. I mean if he can force a draw with Jiraiya in P1, w/o Edo-Perks he should be a bit better with them. Though I could understand still putting them as relatively equals


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## Eliyua23 (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think they are close, but Edo-Perks should edge things in Itachi's favor. I mean if he force a draw with Jiraiya in P1, w/o Edo-Perks he should be a bit better with them. Though I could understand still putting them as relatively equals



He said at best they could force a draw and thats probably w/o even having knowledge of all Jiraiya could do like frog song/frog kata he was probably going off rep and he did have Kisame with him.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> He said at best they could force a draw and thats probably w/o even having knowledge of all Jiraiya could do like frog song/frog kata he was probably going off rep and he did have Kisame with him.


Kisame w/o absorbed Bijuu Chakra is irrelevant to a fight between Itachi and Jiraiya. This is the same Kisame who Itachi said would have a tough time with P1-Kakashi, who shit his pants at the thought of fighting a Sannin. And indeed when Jiraiya and Itachi did briefly clash, Kisame was irrelevant. 

And sure Itachi said at best he could draw with Jiraiya, but even if he failed to achieve that draw, the implication from the text is still that Itachi would give Jiraiya a tough fight regardless; High to Extreme diff. So I think adding fairly significant in Itachi's case Edo-Perks will tip things in his favor, albeit I do not think he is eons above Jiraiya by any means, but he's probably slightly stronger.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> So it is safe to say that Tobirama is above Itachi. Probably even in another tier, because of a very huge speed difference.



Itachi was moving so fast Bee was having problems, and Bee had reacted to Hiraishin users. There is no huge gap in speed unless you use the same EoS scaling that has Sakura blitzing BM Minato.​


StarWanderer said:


> I have some doubts about that, but i dont realy think V2 is so short. Ei had enough chakra to fight Sasuke longer imao.



Maybe, but I think its limited. Turrin also made the interesting point that after the mega-shunshin used on Sasuke, A wasn't able to avoid the falling rocks Sasuke caused with the next level of Susano'o.​


StarWanderer said:


> PS can block the Jinton.



Perfect Susano'o was not used, however. Onoki made it clear he had never seen it while Madara was alive. And I don't consider Edo Madara faster than Edo Itachi, nor their living counterparts.​


StarWanderer said:


> Itachi doesnt have any counter to MS Obito's speed and Kamui. It's all about their speed difference, thanks to which Obito wont have much of a problem with Itachi.



You're assuming Itachi is slow again. He has the fastest stat in the databook, while sick, and nearly blitzed Bee. His clone feints were faster than the Choku EMS could notice and a Sage coud sense.​


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> Itachi was moving so fast Bee was having problems, and Bee had reacted to Hiraishin users. There is no huge gap in speed unless you use the same EoS scaling that has Sakura blitzing BM Minato.



Bee, who is not in the same speed level as Tobirama. He reacted to Minato twice, but base Minato doesnt have reflexes and striking speed as good as Tobirama's. Edo Tobirama marked Juubito and reacted to exploding Gudoudama. The speed difference is too high, Itachi cant beat him.



> Turrin made the interesting point that after the mega-shunshin used on Sasuke, A wasn't able to avoid the falling rocks Sasuke caused with the next level of Susano'o. Perhaps not./QUOTE]
> 
> Yet Ei could use V2 against Madara's clones after he used V2 alongside other Kage against Madara himself.
> 
> ...


----------



## Six (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Edo Tobirama marked Juubito.



This is Tobirama's best feat, and one that cost him half his body. Why would Edo Itachi be incapable of tagging Jubito in the same situation when his hands move faster than Sharingan can see?​


StarWanderer said:


> Can you explain why you dont consider Edo Madara faster then Edo Itachi, nor their living counterparts? Can you provide feats for Itachi?



Bee was unable to track Itachi's shunshin twice in their battle despite Bee having top notch reflexes. What feat of movement does Edo Madara have that's puts a "huge gap" between them?​


StarWanderer said:


> Rinnegan Obito (as fast as MS Obito, because there is no proof Madara's Rinnegan gives precognition) fought Might Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at the same time. And did well.



Using defensive Kamui is a matter of reflexes. It's like saying Itachi could activate Susano'o in time to block those individuals. Obito doesn't have _movement_ feats better than Itachi.​


StarWanderer said:


> What Databook are you talking about? And can you remind me about those "Choku EMS" and "Sage" situations? Are you talking about a fight with Kabuto?



Yes. Itachi performed two clone feints that shocked both Sasuke and Sage Kabuto with only minor distractions. If, for instance, he summoned a , he's perfectly capable of it again.​


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Like I said before, the EoS fight scrambled everything. Sakura hit Kaguya when Rinnegan Sasuke's teleportation couldn't, but Rinnegan Sasuke's teleportation hit Jubidara when Minato was thrashed.

Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama all have top of the line human reflexes and movement. The latter are enhanced with Hiraishin, but we saw Bee counter Hiraishin. So "speed" isn't an argument for me.​


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Izanami GG.


If Itachi's best option is a technique he himself suggests in not battle ideal then he is in a bad position against Obito indeed. 



Turrin said:


> Who knows how strong Kakashi was when he became Rokudaime


Kakashi didn't have MS when he became Hokage so I think it's safe to say he's at the bottom of the list. Even if you argue he's got tons of unseen jutsu at his disposal, chances are none of them > Single-Kamui so even then he's still looking at the bottom.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like I said before, the EoS fight scrambled everything. Sakura hit Kaguya when Rinnegan Sasuke's teleportation couldn't, but Rinnegan Sasuke's teleportation hit Jubidara when Minato was thrashed.
> 
> Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama all have top of the line human reflexes and movement. The latter are enhanced with Hiraishin, but we saw Bee counter Hiraishin. So "speed" isn't an argument for me.​



speed isn't true but hirashin is
Itachi eyes wont be able to follow minato using hirashin back and forth. no eye contact no tskuyomi

amaterasu is trolled by hirashin. (no need to discuss that)

and susanoo can be evaded now and forever with hirashin. 

so like I said they would more or less beat itachi, especially minato but not because of a level difference but jutsu which are well suited to spank itachi. 

note: people nagato more or less would be where everyone put itachi bar the hokage where nagato will be put above minato by all


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> speed isn't true but hirashin is
> Itachi eyes wont be able to follow minato using hirashin back and forth. no eye contact no tskuyomi



We saw Tobirama look at Sasuke's MS and Minato look at Obito's Sharingan.

Itachi also has other methods of casting genjutsu, like .

He basically has a safe 10-15 minutes to outsmart them. IMO he would.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

and both hirashin users implement the use of hirashin with clones and are sensors
lets not get into match ups

 both hirashin users are sensors. which make them especially suited for counter genjutsu. notice Karin already showed a sensor can tell when their chakra is being tampered with 

the ability to neg diff things like amaterasu kinda puts itachi in a tight spot considering he doesn't know they can  it


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## Eliyua23 (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kisame w/o absorbed Bijuu Chakra is irrelevant to a fight between Itachi and Jiraiya. This is the same Kisame who Itachi said would have a tough time with P1-Kakashi, who shit his pants at the thought of fighting a Sannin. And indeed when Jiraiya and Itachi did briefly clash, Kisame was irrelevant.
> 
> And sure Itachi said at best he could draw with Jiraiya, but even if he failed to achieve that draw, the implication from the text is still that Itachi would give Jiraiya a tough fight regardless; High to Extreme diff. So I think adding fairly significant in Itachi's case Edo-Perks will tip things in his favor, albeit I do not think he is eons above Jiraiya by any means, but he's probably slightly stronger.



Sure in a one on one bout when they aren't prepared to fight sure , but if Itachi is ready and willing to fight Jiraiya w Kisame could devise a plan that protects Kisame from getting completely one shotted although I agree in the end he wont survive .

I dont see how he can give him high diff when he even admitted even with more people it wouldn't change the outcome and base jiraiya forced Itachi to use his second strongest jutsu and we saw how horribly Itachi performed in the Hebi-Sasuke fight compared to what Jiraiya did against Pain , and even w Edo perks it doesn't change the fact that Itachi struggles against Sage Mode techniques and most of them can wreck his shit , I took the overall text to indicate they have no shot at beating Jiraiya at best if everything goes their way they can only hope to survive , if Itachi fights Jiraiya there is about 98% change he's going to die at that point w Edo it can be a long drawn out battle that could go either way.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> both hirashin users are sensors. which make them especially suited for counter genjutsu.



You forget that Itachi's a genius among geniuses with genjutsu. . _And that's when they're not under genjutsu themselves_.​


Icegaze said:


> the ability to neg diff things like amaterasu kinda puts itachi in a tight spot considering he doesn't know they can



As the former ANBU commander, personal soldiers of the Hokage, somebody is marked with Hiraishin for protection, it's unlikely Itachi doesn't know about the jutsu.

Itachi's whole schtick as an Edo was figuring out the weakness to jutsu. And thanks to Susano'o, he has a whole 10-15 minutes to do so, or longer if he only uses Susano'o when they come close.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You forget that Itachi's a genius among geniuses with genjutsu.
> 
> .​
> 
> ...



you who knows all about the manga
tell me hirashin weakness. you certainly no more than itachi would don't you think. so out with it. whats hirashin weakness that itachi could exploit 

fair enough with the scan. however isn't that what clones and moving too fast for itachi eyes to see are for? its a well known strategy, against sharingan have a partner. 

clones are immune to genjutsu FYI. no reason to assume minato doesn't off the bat create one or tobirama who would know that

also your scan implies Ao sensory unit are on the same level as tobirama or minato in sensing. which I doubt massively


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> clones are immune to genjutsu FYI.



No, they are not immune to genjutsu. We've seen many clones trapped in genjutsu, dating all the way back to Naruto in the Forest of Death, to Hashirama against Hiruzen, and so on and so forth. 

The instance your referring to is one of many where people interpret to dehype Itachi's abilities. Kakashi resisted the Sharingan genjutsu _because he had a near-mastered Sharingan himself_.

Itachi noted that it was a clone after musing that he should have known normal Sharingan genjutsu wouldn't cripple Kakashi. He wasn't saying clones were immune to genjutsu.​


Icegaze said:


> you who knows all about the manga
> tell me hirashin weakness. you certainly no more than itachi would don't you think. so out with it. whats hirashin weakness that itachi could exploit



Genjutsu. Anaticipate the markers. Etc. We saw Bee do relatively well against it with a little anticipation and positioning his sword. Put Itachi and all his jutsu in that position and he'll be good.​


Icegaze said:


> also your scan implies Ao sensory unit are on the same level as tobirama or minato in sensing. which I doubt massively



... are you arguing that Minato can outperform an entire Alliance team of sensors in sensing genjutsu manipulation in others while Minato is actively being influenced by said genjutsu manipulation?​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No, they are not immune to genjutsu. We've seen many clones put in genjutsu, dating all the way back to Naruto in the Forest of Death, to Hashirama against Hiruzen, and so on and so forth.
> 
> The instance your referring to is one of many where people go full retard to dehype Itachi's abilities. Kakashi resisted the Sharingan genjutsu _because he had a near-mastered Sharingan himself_.​



itachi himself specifically explains the reason kakashi wasn't caught in his paper burning genjutsu
he said oh its because you are a clone

 go figure. do you want the scan?

we haven't seen many clones put in genjutsu. we saw hashirama genjutsu which is an area wide genjutsu work on clones, that has notihng to do with itachi genjutsu which alters the chakra in the persons brain 


ill go on and post it due to ur strong denial. notice he doesn't talk about sharingan but brings up its because its a clone. 

repelled

notice he explains its because its a KB

there is a strong difference between area wide genjutsu and what itachi does by messing with a person chakra in their brain

kotetsu and izumo were the first to attempt an area wide genjutsu on panel. it doesn't tamper with the victim chakra in their body at all. or kai would defeat gengetsu genjutsu, kai would have worked against hashirama

if not kai some pain inflected. which has been shown to break both sharingan genjutsu and tayuya genjutsu


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

_All_ genjutsu alters chakra in the person's brain to affect what the sense, and what I'm saying is that you're misinterpreting the scan. We have seen genjutsu work on clones _a lot_.

Sasuke vs Deidara, Hiruzen vs Hashirama, Oboro Trio vs Team Kakashi, and all these are just off the top of my head. And that Kakashi clone was _in_ genjutsu. It just resisted the affects of torture.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

the scan is quite clear
he says you aren't affected because you are a kage bunshin

go to the raw have turrin translate it. he would come to the same conclusion 

the denial is strong in you


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

So what you're saying is that clones are immune to genjutsu, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So the Moon's Eye Plan just became a lot less threatening.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

all evidence to the contrary 

kakashi clone says otherwise 

not that one should feel reasonable after bringing up moon eye plan and lowly itachi in the same sentence but ok 

I also didn't see any clones caught in that genjutsu 

the only genjutsu countered by a clone was itachi's. 

therefore itachi genjutsu would not be working on clones. unless u got his genjutsu working against clones. if so do show me


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> This is Tobirama's best feat, and one that cost him half his body. Why would Edo Itachi be incapable of tagging Jubito in the same situation when his hands move faster than Sharingan can see?



He didnt want to dodge that attack - he was using his Edo kamikaze style there.

Sasuke saw his movements. EMS Sasuke saw his movements, Hebi Sasuke saw his movements. Itachi doesnt have movement speed feats good enough to suggest he can mark Juubito. He cant strike/mark *that* fast.



> Bee was unable to track Itachi's shunshin twice in their battle despite Bee having top notch reflexes. What feat of movement does Edo Madara have that's puts a "huge gap" between them?



Reacting as an Edo to V2 Ei when V1 Ei was dominating Bee without much of a problem when there also was KCM Naruto to deal with.

Alive, without ayes, outperformed SM Naruto and Sai almost in an instant, the same Sage Mode Naruto who had better reflexes then KCM Naruto, by the way. 

Even his Edo mokuton clones could create Susanoo which could tag V2 Ei.

Thats why there is a very huge speed gap between Edo Madara and Edo Itachi, or between their alive counterparts. Itachi does not operate in that speed tier. 



> Using defensive Kamui is a matter of reflexes. It's like saying Itachi could activate Susano'o in time to block those individuals. Obito doesn't have movement feats better than Itachi.



Obito almost grabbed KCM Naruto and fought well against War Arc Kakashi. Those movement speed feats are better then anything Itachi has shown. He can appear behind Itachi and Kamui him right there. 

Also, i want you to show me how Itachi puts a proficient MS user in a genjutsu. Even his Tsukuyomi was resisted by Hebi Sasuke. 



> Yes. Itachi performed two clone feints that shocked both Sasuke and Sage Kabuto with only minor distractions. If, for instance, he summoned a crow cloud, he's perfectly capable of it again.



Shocked Sasuke with a crow cloud while he was in a free fall. Can you prove Sasuke couldnt see those crows? They were just disturbing him like some mosquito.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

till date itachi jutsu casting speed is 1 of the best 

sage kabuto couldn't sense that itachi had used a clone, nor could EMS sasuke

sasuke while summoning shiruken therefore having quicker access to them than going into itachi ninja purse was still slower than itachi at throwing shiruken and coudnt see itachi hand seals despite looking directly at him 

no doubt what tobirama did was more impressive. but as I have been told he can only pull such off while as an ET

since a clone would be dispersed the second juubito makes contact with it

in any case. I am all for tobirama beating itachi. itachi cannot defend against infinite explosion, putting susanoo up wont help since it would just keep exploding


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

kamui wrap super speed. 

wrapping sasuke 
then wrapping himself before jinton exploded while it had already covered sasuke 

 the rest is bla bla 

author has already told u. minato is faster than tobirama the end

feats are open to interpretation. when the author has a character tell you something that's what the author wants you to remember from that. 
that's common sense which eludes you I understand. sorry bro 

if I show you a picture. you can take what you want from it. If I show you the picture then tell you what I want you to get from it and I am the photographer of said picture well that's what I want u to take from it.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> kamui wrap super speed.
> 
> wrapping sasuke
> then wrapping himself before jinton exploded while it had already covered sasuke
> ...



Thats not more impressive then what Tobirama did. KCM Minato couldnt react to exploding Gudoudama and Juubito's counter attack. Plus, KCM Naruto didnt do anything, while Tobirama marked Juubito.

Can Karin sense both Obito and Sasuke when they both are intangible?


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

sasuke can be intangible?

that's not more impressive according to you. however reacting mid kamui is basically the best reaction feat in the manga. this is the thing that makes obito what he is. you know the thing that once its speed was doubled avoided juudara fastest attack

someone who is horrendously superior to mindless juubito. but yh sure lets assume reacting mid kamui wrap with no knowledge is unimpressive. or less impressive

which again goes besides the point. kishi has made every effort to let you know when it comes to speed minato is superior 
I bet you soon enough you would begin to suggest tobirama ET is better than orochimaru because he can use his own jutsu through them


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If Itachi's best option is a technique he himself suggests in not battle ideal then he is in a bad position against Obito indeed.



Its not battle ideal because the opponent has the actual chance the dispell the technique by accepting their fate. Someone like Obito(who is completely delusional about his own identity) won't be able to easily come out of the loop. That gives Itachi plenty of time to kill him while he is stuck.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No, they are not immune to genjutsu. We've seen many clones trapped in genjutsu, dating all the way back to Naruto in the Forest of Death, to Hashirama against Hiruzen, and so on and so forth​


. 

and we have seen itachi genjutsu be trolled by a clone. 



> The instance your referring to is one of many where people interpret to dehype Itachi's abilities. Kakashi resisted the Sharingan genjutsu _because he had a near-mastered Sharingan himself_.
> 
> Itachi noted that it was a clone after musing that he should have known normal Sharingan genjutsu wouldn't cripple Kakashi. He wasn't saying clones were immune to genjutsu.



your interpretation not what the panel said. itachi only mentioned kage bunshin. he said nothing of kakashi sharingan having anything to do with it. 



> Genjutsu. Anaticipate the markers. Etc. We saw Bee do relatively well against it with a little anticipation and positioning his sword. Put Itachi and all his jutsu in that position and he'll be good.​



you mean bee who has a partner, who would know foreign chakra just got injected into him. which is what hirashin marks are. you mean the same partner who is perfect at sharing chakra. I didn't know itachi had 1 of those. genjutsu works no doubt, how Is he sure who to trap in it. since again so far on panels clones seem fine with genjutsu. 

perhaps hiruzen clones couldn't break out you know because kai and other methods wouldn't work. Area wide genjutsu and all. reminds me of gengetsu  genjutsu which ignores partner method. 

5 madara clones too slow to catch A in genjutsu but sure its itachi who is going to catch minato in genjutsu despite minato being horribly faster than A and far less predictable



> ... are you arguing that Minato can outperform an entire Alliance team of sensors in sensing genjutsu manipulation in others while Minato is actively being influenced by said genjutsu manipulation?​



am saying minato never gets caught. and catching the clone wouldn't affect the original anwyayz. when has attacking a clone hurt the original?

Ao wasn't talking about the entire alliance but his mist sensory team. otherwise he would have said all sensors in the alliance. Also Ino dad was team leader of sensor unit. so Ao wouldn't call the entire alliance of sensors his team.


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not battle ideal because the opponent has the actual chance the dispell the technique by accepting their fate. Someone like Obito(who is completely delusional about his own identity) won't be able to easily come out of the loop. That gives Itachi plenty of time to kill him while he is stuck.



I don't know if you're aware but Obito was "converted" a while back. They even did an entire chapter on paralleling him to Kabuto after Kabuto had removed himself from Izanagi. So that shit ain't flying.

Furthermore, the prospect of Itachi actually completing the requisites to put the loop into place against someone with the ability to phase _and _has knowledge on Izanagi is laughable at best.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

The Hokage

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Kakashi

Above no Sharingan and Sharingan Kakashi. Far below double MS Kakashi, and slightly below MS Kakashi. 

The Sannin

-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

Equal to Jiraiya as canon says. Probably below Zetsu enhanced Orochimaru

Previous Five Kage

-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei

Seems to be above them all... though probably around desert Gaara. 

Edo Kage

- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa

Probably above the third, around Rasa's level and below Muu and Gengetsu.

The Akatsuki

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan

Far below Obito and Pain-Nagato; around Konan's level.


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2015)

> [\=Kyu;53648750]Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.



_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Minato
-Hashirama
-Hiruzen 
-Tobirama
-*itachi*/Tsunade
-Kakashi




_*The Sannin*_

-Jiraiya
-*itachi*/Orochimaru(No Edo)/Tsunade



_*Previous Five Kage*_

-Onoki/Ei
Gaara
-Tsunade/*Itachi*
-Mei




_*Edo Kage*_

- Third Raikage
-Mu/Gengetsu
- *Itachi*
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
- *itachi*
-Kisame
- Kakuzu
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Konan
-Hidan


I consider itachi to be Mid-Kage level at best.

Side Note. Haven't you done something like this not too long ago?


----------



## Kyu (May 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Minato
> ...



Oh boy...





> Side Note. Haven't you done something like this not too long ago?



Damn near every thread has been done before.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> So what you're saying is that clones are immune to genjutsu, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So the Moon's Eye Plan just became a lot less threatening.​



Or... Genjutsu cast by Itachi cannot affect clones? 

Like you said Genjutsu (used by _other_ shinobi) seemed to work on clones... except Itachi's. Then Itachi made the comment he did. Ergo only Itachi's illusions don't work on clones.


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Oh boy...
> 
> Damn near every thread has been done before.



1- What?  I guess If you want I am in a mode to write some stuff..  
2- I guess you can get away with that.


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> So what you're saying is that clones are immune to genjutsu, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So the Moon's Eye Plan just became a lot less threatening.​



wouldn't the real deal be under the genjutsu as well in case of MEP?  
(that's kinda why the clones are irrelevant in this case)


----------



## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke can be intangible?
> 
> that's not more impressive according to you. however reacting mid kamui is basically the best reaction feat in the manga. this is the thing that makes obito what he is. you know the thing that once its speed was doubled avoided juudara fastest attack
> 
> ...



Thanks to Obito, who could just touch Sasuke just in time from beneath, making him intangible with Obito, take him underneath, absorb Sasuke underneath and later appear before Kage.

Obito avoided Juubidara's counterattack thanks to Rikudou's chakra and Hashirama's Sage Mode chakra he absorbed from Juubidara. 

And i dont know why you consider that feat to be the best reaction speed feat when it is not. Edo Minato, amped by KCM, couldnt react to things to which Tobirama could react. 

That "mindless Juubito" thing again. Can you prove that there was a speed difference between "mindless Juubito" and "mindfull Juubito"?


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2015)

So, Kyu. 

1- The Child is self-explanatory 
Orochimaru actually blitzed Hiruzen

I won't talk about Hashirama either because that's a waste of time
(Obviously that include talking about any character as no one will ever change anything he believes, but when it
comes to Hashirama he has a waste of time Plus, so, yeah. )

Then comes Tobirama. Over the past 2 years or so, he became overwanked as you may know. However, coming to reality the manga has always presented those coming after him to have surpassed him in 1 way or the other. 

Starting from his student, . 



> Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member



We know he has 5 in Nin, Tai, Gen, intll. hand-seals. And we know he was known to be stronger than Tobirama anyone based on the manga and DB. He even told him to prepare for losing. 
Orochimaru actually blitzed Hiruzen

Then we have Oro who even has more talent than the previous one. 
Orochimaru actually blitzed Hiruzen
who improved Tobirama's stuff, and took them where Tobirama couldn't.
Orochimaru actually blitzed Hiruzen

and then , whom is also self-explanatory as Tobirama admitted his inferiority the moment they stepped to the war.



And same shit by the DB


> ”!!?” (Volume 53, Chapter 503)
> Displaying astonishing skillfulness with “Hiraishin no jutsu”!!
> Overwhelming the Masked Man that is the mastermind behind the Kyuubi Incident!!
> 
> ...



2-


> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...



3-


> Inherited from Master to Disciple
> Secret Story of the Creation of Hiden Ninjutsu
> 
> Tobirama’s developed jutsu were later inherited by a disciple, a user whose name was rising. Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era. The future of “Kagebunshin no jutsu (Shadow Clone Jutsu)” and “Rasengan” is



some may say "well, that's only speed blah blah blah". Well, that's about all of what Tobirama showed or hyped for.
Unlike the others who have some other shit going on for them Minato (sealing is probably his next best department), Oro (forbidden jutsu/snakes), Hiruzen (all the jutsu basically )

That's why he is low on the rank, and yet I putted him on the same tier with Tsunade. Now, Where itachi stands in all of this. 

Obviously we know that MS users are inferior to the FTG users as we have seen.

Yes, Tobirama is not in Minato's lever, but neither is itachi for that matter who admitted his inferiority to his master
Obito, or as he called him "madara", and we know he, as he believe, can only surpass him with EMS. Now, we don't know Izuna's level, but it would be exaggerated to think he is far below itachi. Especially that he apparently has  Enton judging on Tobirama's statement when he saw Sasuke's Enton. We know only Izuna had the MS besides Madara, and we know he was Tobirama's rival, so that makes sense, I believe. Also, any 2 MS can have Susanoo as well, so yeah, he is most likely more or less around itachi's level probably. 


We know as a fact that itachi's peers in the manga are the sannin. As such, they are the ones whom he is always been compared to in term of power. Like being stronger than Oro, after the later lost his arms (before he also gain the Zetsu body), or weaker than Jiraiya. In addition to having a relatively equal total score with them in the 3rd Databook. So, yeah, I believe that is his place based on how the manga and the DB compared them to each other.

- Kakashi:

he lost his sharingan, and therefore, even the good aiming for his Raikiri, and Chidori. There is nothing much going on for him.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So, Kyu.
> 
> 1- The Child is self-explanatory
> Link removed
> ...



Praised among shinobi as the greatest in god-like speed? Maybe the greatest in god-like Shunshin speed? And praised? Praise and hype proves nothing at all. It can be crushed. This statement can be just a hyperbole. And there are proofs in the actual manga that Minato is not the fastest shinobi.

As for Tobirama, i want you to explain to me why Tobirama marked Juubito in a close distance and KCM Minato failed to do that. Also, i want you to explain to me why KCM Minato couldnt react to exploding Gudoudama and Tobirama's clone could. 

Of course, Minato's Shunshin is faster. Of course, his Hiraishin is better. Tobirama himself admitted that. And you brought few Databook statements about that.

But Tobirama has shown faster reflexes then Minato, faster striking speed then Minato, in general - faster CQC speed. Minato was drastically amped by KCM yet couldnt perform the way Tobirama performed? And you, with some other fans, consider Minato the fastest shinobi in Narutoverse?


----------



## Kyu (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So, Kyu.
> 
> 1- The Child is self-explanatory-



Yeah yeah, we got the memo Naruto > All other Hokage

That's apparent to anyone with a brain.

Moving on.



> Then comes Tobirama. Over the past 2 years or so, he became overwanked as you may know.



Tobirama is only overrated when the "he and his clone are faster than Kyuubi Minato" nonsense starts spewing uncontrollably from certain orifices.



> Starting from his student, .




I'm on the fence... should I take this seriously?




> We know he has 5 in Nin, Tai, Gen, intll. hand-seals. And we know he was known to be stronger than Tobirama anyone based on the manga and DB. He even told him to prepare for losing.
> Link removed



He can fight a gimped Tobirama w/o Hiraishin and Hashirama at 000.1% power.

Congrats Hiruzen.




> Then we have Oro who even has more talent than the previous one.
> Link removed
> who improved Tobirama's stuff, and took them where Tobirama couldn't.
> Link removed



Improving a jutsu does not equal superiority as a shinobi. 

Immortals arc Naruto took rasengan to a whole new level; doesn't mean he's stronger than Minato or Jiraiya at said point in time.



> and then , whom is also self-explanatory as Tobirama admitted his inferiority the moment they stepped to the war.



In terms of chakra augmented movement, yes. Base Minato > Tobirama. 




> Unlike the others who have some other shit going on for them Minato (sealing is probably his next best department), Oro (forbidden jutsu/snakes), Hiruzen (all the jutsu basically )





> That's why he is low on the rank, and yet I putted him on the same tier with Tsunade. Now, Where itachi stands in all of this.



In spite of him possessing the speed and tools to oneshot those you named bar the second and fourth Hokage?




> We know as a fact that itachi's peers in the manga are the sannin.


13 y/o Itachi made Orochimaru his bitch - someone who'd give Jiraiya hell.


He toyed _and outlasted_ Hebi Sasuke with a crippling disease working to his detriment.


Itachi's supremacy couldn't be anymore evident.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I don't know if you're aware but Obito was "converted" a while back. They even did an entire chapter on paralleling him to Kabuto after Kabuto had removed himself from Izanagi. So that shit ain't flying.
> 
> Furthermore, the prospect of Itachi actually completing the requisites to put the loop into place against someone with the ability to phase _and _has knowledge on Izanagi is laughable at best.



Thats post war arc Obito.
MS obito wasn't converted(which the Akatsuki Ranking stands for).

Itachi completed the loop against Kabuto, which involved him getting stabbed upside down with a sword that didn't even belong to Kabuto. Take Kabuto's overall diversity into account, and compare it to the one trick pony Obito is, and yeah, Itachi can easily Izanami GG Obito by creating a lot less complicated circumstance. Obito is one of the few people who actually is an easy prey due to his easy to predict and limited move set and his unstable psyche.


----------



## Veracity (May 24, 2015)

Itachi would never ever ever ever beat Tobirama 

One of the most strategic and knowledge individuals in the entire verse, who has years of experience fighting Uchiha from when he first knew how to control his chakra, equipped with advanced sensing, kage Bunshin and FTG IS NEVER GETTING CAUGHT IN GENJUSTU. He would wreck any version of Itachi Any day.


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Tobirama is not wrecking Itachi. They're on the same level. He'd struggle to win, though I do lean towards him thanks to his experience fighting Uchiha.


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## Veracity (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama is not wrecking Itachi. They're on the same level. He'd struggle to win, though I do lean towards him thanks to his experience fighting Uchiha.



Naww. He's comfortably above Itachi. It would barely be a struggle and unless he played absolutely stupid yes win every single time. 100%. Itachi cannot compete with the speed and experience gap.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

> =Kyu;53654733]
> Tobirama is only overrated when the "he and his clone are faster than Kyuubi Minato" nonsense starts spewing uncontrollably from certain orifices.



I think he's overrated when compared to other characters as well who are clearly presented to by his superiors.  



> I'm on the fence... should I take this seriously?



Well, that's up to you. I am only giving you what Kishi thinks of him and his level.  



> He can fight a gimped Tobirama w/o Hiraishin and Hashirama at 000.1% power.
> 
> Congrats Hiruzen.


Don't know from where you brought that persentage. But as always with Senju bros fans. You talk
about the handicap they had, but never mentioned Hiruzen's. The Credibility is overwhelming I must admit.  




> Improving a jutsu does not equal superiority as a shinobi.
> 
> Immortals arc Naruto took rasengan to a whole new level; doesn't mean he's stronger than Minato or Jiraiya at said point in time.



Except that's his best jutsu. Minato's main fighting style is based on speed and teleportation, not his rassengan. In addition, if you go to the other things, Oro is still superior to him for having much more attacks, and even stronger. On the other hand all of what Tobirama has other than those main jutsu of his is crapy level water jutsu that are even below the level of the fodders in past war. Not sure how is that helping him much honestly. 


> In terms of chakra augmented movement, yes. Base Minato > Tobirama.


you can put the terms you want. What I know is nothing of "in term" are being used in those statements. He simply superior to him in everything has to do with S/T jutsu. 




> In spite of him possessing the speed and tools to oneshot those you named bar the second and fourth Hokage?


Tobirama has far superior speed to Kin/Gin. Yet he got his ass handled to him. You consider hashirama to be the second strongest, even tho the gap in speed between him and the 4th & 2nd is  far greater than the little gap in speed between itachi and the others.  

Madara also who is several tiers above itachi couldn't 1-shot Tsunade for example, so I am not sure
what are you talking about.  



> 13 y/o Itachi made Orochimaru his bitch - someone who'd give Jiraiya hell.



He was 15 actually. Also it's match up crap. 14 year old Tayuya made itachi and Sasuke her bitches. Yet, she can't hold a candle to Oro.  

Same as Minato making Obito his bitch, yet BM Naruto, Gai, B, Kakashi couldn't. I don't think you believe base Minato is stronger than them combined. And so on and so forth. 





> He toyed _and outlasted_ Hebi Sasuke with a crippling disease working to his detriment.



He got murdered, and admitted Hebi Sasuke's power. Not as if Hebi Sasuke is much compared to full power Sannin. 


> Itachi's supremacy couldn't be anymore evident.



Pfff, getting killed is more evident than the guy himself admitting his own inferiority despite being one of thee most arrogant characters in the manga?  

Yeah, right. lol


----------



## StarWanderer (May 24, 2015)

> Tobirama is only overrated when the "he and his clone are faster than Kyuubi Minato" nonsense starts spewing uncontrollably from certain orifices.



That orifice uncontrollably speaks the truth. Tobirama did what KCM Minato failed to do, his clone did what KCM Minato failed to do. Those are manga facts, dude. I am not talking about BM Minato here. I am talking about base Minato and KCM Minato. And those two do not possess reflexes as good as those of Tobirama. 

Re-read the manga before calling manga facts "nonsense". 



> Itachi can easily Izanami GG Obito



Kabuto do not possess Kamui, movement speed and reaction speed as good as that of Obito. Itachi doesnt have feats good enough to suggest he can Izanami Obito, let alone do that *easily*. 

Obito almost grabbed KCM Naruto to Kamui him in another dimension, fought on par with War Arc Kakashi, fought Might Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto at the same time.

And Itachi doesnt have feats good enough to suggest he can put a proficient MS Uchiha user, who's also very good in a genjutsu, under a genjutsu.

WHere did you get those things from? Obito is very intellectual and very calm during battle. Actually, his intellectual feats are better then those of Itachi.

Itachi gets Kamui'd. That's not even a contest.



> Tobirama is not wrecking Itachi. They're on the same level. He'd struggle to win, though I do lean towards him thanks to his experience fighting Uchiha.



He is. Thanks to their speed difference.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjaw does have a point it should be easier to put obito in izanami than kabuto 
seeing their move set kabuto is far less predictable


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Grimmjaw does have a point it should be easier to put obito in izanami than kabuto
> seeing their move set kabuto is far less predictable



How likely is Obito to use Izanami on someone like Itachi, also it seems like the Izanagi illusion needs to be done twice prior Izanami having an effect. What happens if Obito doesn't need that second use of Izanagi.

If Itachi suddenly got even more firepower than he canonically has, then it is possible he can force that. However with his known firepower, he probably won't even make Obito need Izanagi. 

That's why the Izanami-Izanagi argument with Obito-Itachi is a very insignificant factor.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How likely is Obito to use Izanami on someone like Itachi, also it seems like the Izanagi illusion needs to be done twice prior Izanami having an effect. What happens if Obito doesn't need that second use of Izanagi.
> 
> If Itachi suddenly got even more firepower than he canonically has, then it is possible he can force that. However with his known firepower, he probably won't even make Obito need Izanagi.
> 
> That's why the Izanami-Izanagi argument with Obito-Itachi is a very insignificant factor.



the first part of your post is not only wrong it hardly even makes sense. what are you on about ?

izanami can be used without obito needing to use izanagi and is a counter to izanagi which means izanagi cannot be used to escape izanami 

again itachi doesn't need to make obito use izanagi at all. once stuck in izanam obito has lost. izanagi cannot escape it. 

read the chapters again. izanami is an izanagi counter not the other way round


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the first part of your post is not only wrong it hardly even makes sense. what are you on about ?
> 
> izanami can be used without obito needing to use izanagi and is a counter to izanagi which means izanagi cannot be used to escape izanami
> 
> ...



Itachi's explanation of Izanagi-Izanami is that Izanami works when the Izanagi is used for 2 shots... first shot is A and the second one is A'.

But Izanami also requires some sort of inner pain/denial to build itself upon. Without being the natural counter of Izanagi, or fighting a foe with certain qualities... it is absolutely useless.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's explanation of Izanagi-Izanami is that Izanami works when the Izanagi is used for 2 shots... first shot is A and the second one is A'.
> 
> But Izanami also requires some sort of inner pain/denial to build itself upon. Without being the natural counter of Izanagi, or fighting a foe with certain qualities... it is absolutely useless.



What a load of horseshit.

Itachi's explanation doesn't say anything about Izanagi being have to used twice. Izanagi doesn't even have to be used @ all. Izanagi / Izanami relationship comes from the fact that Izanami was created to rehabilitate Izanagi users, force them to accept their fate. 
As we've seen with Kabuto, anyone can be put in the Izanami loop as long as they fit that certain criteria. Kabuto doesn't even have sharingan, let alone the capability of casting Izanagi.


----------



## Kyu (May 24, 2015)

> That orifice uncontrollably speaks the truth.



If by "truth" you mean fallacious drivel, then I concur.



> Tobirama did what KCM Minato failed to do, his clone did what KCM Minato failed to do.



Precisely. A clone. And despite this, those reflexes beyond KCM Minato's didn't stop him from getting off paneled by Madara. Tobirama's initial strike was effortlessly evaded by Sage Mode Madara who in turn got tagged by BM Naruto - both of whom primarily relied on their Sage sensory.


On his clone? Spare me, pls. A clones whose capabilities aren't on par with the original's by Tobirama's own admission, presumably because of the limited amount of chakra distributed into the clone.




> I am talking about base Minato and KCM Minato. And those two do not possess reflexes as good as those of Tobirama.



So Edo Tobirama's clone > Kyuubi/KCM Minato >> KCM Naruto > RCM Ei at max speed?


As you can see Tobirama being faster makes no sense from a portrayal standpoint either.



> Re-read the manga before calling manga facts "nonsense".



I suggest you learn what an outlier is before saddling up on your high horse.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's explanation of Izanagi-Izanami is that Izanami works when the Izanagi is used for 2 shots... first shot is A and the second one is A'.
> 
> But Izanami also requires some sort of inner pain/denial to build itself upon. Without being the natural counter of Izanagi, or fighting a foe with certain qualities... it is absolutely useless.



 
scan of the panel you clearly misunderstood please

izanagi cant be used to escape izanami. however izanagi doesn't need to be forced to be cast at all

all itachi needs is to prep the jutsu and force obito to make the same move twice. and he gets caught in izanami

its no more impractical to use in combat than say frog song for example. when used against obito

though against people who know who they are its a straight up dumb jutsu.


----------



## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats post war arc Obito.
> MS obito wasn't converted(which the Akatsuki Ranking stands for).


Then you'll have to explain to me why Itachi would even bother using Izanagi in the first place when he believes Tobi = Madara and has no reason to suspect he's an Izanagi candidate. 

The irony here is that Obito is much more likely to pull off an Izanagi against Alive-Itachi then the other way around 



> Itachi completed the loop against Kabuto, which involved him getting stabbed upside down with a sword that didn't even belong to Kabuto. Take Kabuto's overall diversity into account, and compare it to the one trick pony Obito is, and yeah, Itachi can easily Izanami GG Obito by creating a lot less complicated circumstance. Obito is one of the few people who actually is an easy prey due to his easy to predict and limited move set and his unstable psyche.


It's like you looked at my post and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out that Obito: (1) can Phase; making it exceptionally difficulty for Itachi to create a physical sensation with Obito _and _repeat it, and (2): has knowledge on Izanagi; which means Obito is going to quickly sniff out any attempts Itachi is making to create the loop.

Instead what you gave me was a bunch of nonsense about Kabuto who's fighting style and knowledge isn't even remotely similar. Next time actually try addressing my points instead of deflecting.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The irony here is that Obito is much more likely to pull off an Izanagi against Alive-Itachi then the other way around.



I think you mean Izanami. And why is that? Obito almost exclusively uses the same jutsu (touch warping) for attack. That makes creating a loop for him extremely manageable.​


StickaStick said:


> It's like you looked at my post and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out that Obito: (1) can Phase; making it exceptionally difficulty for Itachi to create a physical sensation with Obito _and _repeat it



How on earth would having Obito touch-warp two clones be more difficult than having Sage Kabuto (with tons of variance) use Sasuke's sword to stab two clones?​


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## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think you mean Izanami. And why is that? Obito almost exclusively uses the same jutsu (touch warping) for attack. That makes creating a loop for him extremely manageable.​


Yup, meant Izanami. 

The difference here is that Obito is able to strictly dictate where and when he attacks and can respond to attacks by allowing them to pass through him thus avoiding the necessity for a physical sensation; as opposed to Kabuto who must respond with a physical sensation.



> How on earth would having Obito touch-warp two clones be more difficult than having Sage Kabuto (with tons of variance) use Sasuke's sword to stab two clones?​


Because Obito is going to be baited into such a predictable trap 

Again, based on Obito's ability to essentially appear and re-appear out of nowhere by maneuvering under ground and erasing his chakra presence, he'll be more likely to dictate a loop created with Itachi and hit him with Izanami since Itachi can't avoid contact virtually at will the same way Obito can.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Then you'll have to explain to me why Itachi would even bother using Izanagi in the first place when he believes Tobi = Madara and has no reason to suspect he's an Izanagi candidate.


What makes you think Madara isn't an Izanami candidate ? 



> The irony here is that Obito is much more likely to pull off an Izanagi against Alive-Itachi then the other way around


Using Izanagi will only open the door for Itach to use Izanami on him. Not sure what'll that accomplish in the long run.



> It's like you looked at my post and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out that Obito: (1) can Phase; making it exceptionally difficulty for Itachi to create a physical sensation with Obito _and _repeat it, and



Itachi didn't have to touch Kabuto either, so what are you on about ?

Obito's main means of offense is basically grabbing his opponent and warping them. He always touches his opponents.



> (2): has knowledge on Izanagi; which means Obito is going to quickly sniff out any attempts Itachi is making to create the loop.


Lol no. How can someone even sniff out Izanami ? Obito won't know anything up until Itachi closes the loop. Because there is no way you can predict the moment Itachi casts Izanami.
Kabuto is a pretty advanced sensor and he absolutely had no idea.



> Instead what you gave me was a bunch of nonsense about Kabuto who's fighting style and knowledge isn't even remotely similar. Next time actually try addressing my points instead of deflecting.


No need to get angry champ, we'r just debating. Sometimes you gotta accept the loss and move on.


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## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What makes you think Madara isn't an Izanami candidate ?


Sorry, burden of proof is on you here. You need to establish a basis for why Itachi would attempt Izanagi on someone who he was no reason or suspicion to believe is a candidate.



> Using Izanagi will only open the door for Itach to use Izanami on him. Not sure what'll that accomplish in the long run.


Meant Izanami, not Izanagi.



> Itachi didn't have to touch Kabuto either, so what are you on about ?
> 
> Obito's main means of offense is basically grabbing his opponent and warping them. *He always touches his opponents.*


But not always in the same manner. For Izanami to work the same "picture" has to be taken and that can easily be avoided; particularity with knowledge and a specifc ability (phasing) that allows one to avoid psychical contact. 



> Lol no. How can someone even sniff out Izanami ? Obito won't know anything up until Itachi closes the loop. Because there is no way you can predict the moment Itachi casts Izanami.
> Kabuto is a pretty advanced sensor and he absolutely had no idea.


Kabuto also didn't know he was being rope-a-doped into creating a loop. Do you believe with knowledge Kabuto reacts to same attack pattern twice in a similar fashion? Really 

Obito likewise would be well aware of when Itachi is trying to re-create the same image and avoid such a scenario, since Itachi can't dictate when Obito creates the same physical sensation with him, like, at all.



> No need to get angry champ, we'r just debating. Sometimes you gotta accept the loss and move on.


Not angry, just annoyed you would respond with such fluff and nonsense.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What a load of horseshit.
> 
> Itachi's explanation doesn't say anything about Izanagi being have to used twice. Izanagi doesn't even have to be used @ all. Izanagi / Izanami relationship comes from the fact that Izanami was created to rehabilitate Izanagi users, force them to accept their fate.
> As we've seen with Kabuto, anyone can be put in the Izanami loop as long as they fit that certain criteria. Kabuto doesn't even have sharingan, let alone the capability of casting Izanagi.



Points A and A' are vital for the Izanami loop, as per Itachi's description. That's at least two points Izanami needs to record. This is how Izanami works specifically to counter Izanagi.

Similar principle for non Izanagi users, but it is more flexible in that A and A' don't have to be Izanagi points. 



Icegaze said:


> scan of the panel you clearly misunderstood please
> 
> izanagi cant be used to escape izanami. however izanagi doesn't need to be forced to be cast at all
> 
> ...



Where am I saying Izanagi can be used to escape Izanami? 

The bold is what I'm getting at. I'm saying it is unlikely Obito will ever need to use Izanagi on Itachi. More so, I doubt Itachi could get Obito to repeat the same thing (which triggers Izanagi) twice.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

_meet him there_

this little scuffle shows torune and fuu who are shit tier compared to itachi were able to provide back up for each other to prevent obito first attempt at kamiui 

I see no reason why itachi cant do the same against obito here. or have obito wrap an exploding bunshin which puts him immediately in the situation he was in against konan

just saying quick use of bunshin feint should work well against obito who must exclusively touch his enemy before wrapping them

@munboy read above
all itachi needs to do is have obito attempt twice to wrap a clone. not all that hard to pull off. again I don't know why u bring up izanagi

obito would never use it or attempt to use it or need to use it. itachi is far more likely to try to catch obito in izanami off the bat specifically because of how obito fights.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> _meet him there_
> 
> this little scuffle shows torune and fuu who are shit tier compared to itachi were able to provide back up for each other to prevent obito first attempt at kamiui
> 
> I see no reason why itachi cant do the same against obito here. or have obito wrap an exploding bunshin which puts him immediately in the situation he was in against konan



Fuu and Torune were working together, Itachi would be alone. An exploding Bunshin cuts Itachi's chakra in half which leaves him with 2 MS uses before he drops dead.

Plus what inner denial/pain would Izanami build on outside Obito using Izanagi?


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Fuu and Torune were working together, Itachi would be alone. An exploding Bunshin cuts Itachi's chakra in half which leaves him with 2 MS uses before he drops dead.
> 
> Plus what inner denial/pain would Izanami build on outside Obito using Izanagi?



u mean the itachi who can use clones. that automatically means he wont be alone. 

lolz the rest of your post  

he used bunshin, 2 MS jutsu, water jutsu all in the same day and he seemed just fine. this was in part 1 before the horrible chakra inflation which has the likes of kakashi limited to 4 rakiri being able to spam those all day 

rin death.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u mean the itachi who can use clones. that automatically means he wont be alone.
> 
> lolz the rest of your post
> 
> ...



So you're telling me Itachi can actually beat Obito, the guy he chose not to fight directly. Think about that. 

He used a Karasu Bunshin which is explicitly said to use less chakra than a Kage Bunshin. Guess what the exploding clone uses. 

Kakashi improved from the looks of it... Itachi didn't since 5 MS + no chakra taxing jutsu lead to him dropping dead.

Rin death... go on, explain the relevance in regards to Izanami.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So you're telling me Itachi can actually beat Obito, the guy he chose not to fight directly. Think about that.
> 
> He used a Karasu Bunshin which is explicitly said to use less chakra than a Kage Bunshin. Guess what the exploding clone uses.
> 
> ...



I am telling you its not impossible yes. precisely that's what I am saying 

half his chakra which is just fine. 

so kakashi improved in 2.5 years despite having sharingan for decades before. yet was limited to 4 uses

yh far more reasonable than the obvious chakra inflation. I need not list all the jutsu itachi used in his battle against sasuke 

considering here, itachi would not be using high level of susanoo or tskuyomi or amaterasu. which means he had more than enough chakra to fight

obito jutsu cant even damage past V1 susanoo. no need to go higher than that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A and A' don't have to be Izanagi points.


A and A' can be anything as long as they both share the identical sensation.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Sorry, burden of proof is on you here. You need to establish a basis for why Itachi would attempt Izanagi on someone who he was no reason or suspicion to believe is a candidate.



We know Madara's character, he was also a power hungry delusional maniac. If Obito acted like that around Itachi all the time, then I don't see why Itachi wouldn't use it against him, especially after seeing his elusive nature of abilities.

Also you've granted Obito knowledge of Izanami, so by the same token Itachi should have knowledge that Tobi is someone who uses Izanagi. With that, he doesn't need any other reason to cast Izanami. It is a technique created to counter Izanagi afterall.



> But not always in the same manner. For Izanami to work the same "picture" has to be taken and that can easily be avoided; particularity with knowledge and a specifc ability (phasing) that allows one to avoid psychical contact.


How can grabbing someone and casting Kamui be different each time ? Pre Rinnegan Obito doesn't have many options. He either is going to stab with a kunai, or just grab and warp, like he has continously done against his enemies.



> Kabuto also didn't know he was being rope-a-doped into creating a loop. Do you believe with knowledge Kabuto reacts to same attack pattern twice in a similar fashion? Really


First off, how can he know Itachi is setting up Izanami ? And how does he know which moment Itachi is trying to replicate ?  Obito isn't particularly smart, let alone omnipotent. 
He is also reckless because he thinks he is invincible because of Kamui and Izanagi.
That is the reason why he got his shit torn apart against Minato, Konan and Torune.



> Obito likewise would be well aware of when Itachi is trying to re-create the same image and avoid such a scenario, since Itachi can't dictate when Obito creates the same physical sensation with him, like, at all.


Actually he won't. There is no way of knowing it. The only way Obito can avoid creating a sensation between himself and Itachi is to give up his offense all together. Any kind of contact may end up getting him in the loop. 

And simply the pressure of trying to avoid Izanami would force someone like Obito to fuck up(even when Itachi isn't casting it), given he doesn't have many options other than grabbing Itachi and warping him.



> Not angry, just annoyed you would respond with such fluff and nonsense.



I actually proved valid points that you can't seem to refute.

Itachi completed the loop against someone with a much more diverse moveset. And the loop was pretty ridiculous. It doesn't have to be so complicated this time around.


----------



## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We know



We =/= Itachi.

Furthermore, your characterization of Pretend-Madara doesn't fit the bill of an Izanami candidate. 



> Also you've granted Obito knowledge of Izanami, so by the same token Itachi should have knowledge that Tobi is someone who uses Izanagi. With that, he doesn't need any other reason to cast Izanami. It is a technique created to counter Izanagi afterall.


I didn't grant Obito anything. We know Obito knows Izanami is a thing and would know Itachi has it too.



> How can grabbing someone and casting Kamui be different each time ? Pre Rinnegan Obito doesn't have many options. He either is going to stab with a kunai, or just grab and warp, like he has continously done against his enemies.


If Obito manages to cleanly grab Itachi he's done for anyway so I wouldn't even worry about it.



> First off, how can he know Itachi is setting up Izanami ? And how does he know which moment Itachi is trying to replicate ?  Obito isn't particularly smart, let alone omnipotent.
> He is also reckless because he thinks he is invincible because of Kamui and Izanagi.
> That is the reason why he got his shit torn apart against Minato, Konan and Torune.


By recognizing Itachi's attack patterns. This isn't hard. If Itachi has to force Obito into the exact physical sensation twice then Obito is going to be on the look out for it. 

But it doesn't even matter, because chances are Itachi will never be able to land a finger on Obito which makes the whole idea of Itachi creating the loop moot. Obito, on the other hand, can easily move in-and-around Itachi and create the loop and GG Izanami Itachi.



> Actually he won't. There is no way of knowing it. The only way Obito can avoid creating a sensation between himself and Itachi is to give up his offense all together. Any kind of contact may end up getting him in the loop.
> 
> And simply the pressure of trying to avoid Izanami would force someone like Obito to fuck up(even when Itachi isn't casting it), given he doesn't have many options other than grabbing Itachi and warping him.


Obito doesn't have to give up a thing, as he'll be the one dictating the physical contract and is more likely to just create the loop himself and use it against Itachi.



> I actually proved valid points that you can't seem to refute.



This is funny. You're whole argument literally centers around whether Itachi can create a loop with someone who can avoid physical contact at will. And with no explanation on how he would do so to boot.

But that's okay. We saw in the manga-canon that Itachi knew he couldn't kill Obito on his own so did some passive-aggressive shit through Sasuke instead. Even stated himself that he would need EMS to surpass him so I'll side with Itachi's on this one


----------



## Ryuzaki (May 24, 2015)

*Where I see Itachi standing:*

*Hokage*
Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
Kakashi = *Itachi*
Danzo
Hiruzen
Tsunade

*Sannin*
*Itachi*
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade

*Previous 5 Kage*
*Itachi* ≥ Oonoki
Ei
Gaara
Mei
Tsunade

*Edo Kage*
Muu =* Itachi*
Rasa
3rd Raikage
Hozuki

*Akatsuki*
Obito (any version)
Nagato (any version)
Six Paths of Pain
*Itachi*
Deidara
Kisame / Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan

Confused about Kakashi, does he have sharingan or not? I put these stands assuming he does. If not, I'd move him to the bottom in a tie with Tsunade. Also are we counting Danzo in the running or not?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> We =/= Itachi.


Itachi knew Tobi/Madara's character : finger break
finger break
Nice try tho 



> Furthermore, your characterization of Pretend-Madara doesn't fit the bill of an Izanami candidate.


Yeah he does, going by Itachi's description of him. 



> I didn't grant Obito anything. *We know Obito knows Izanami is a thing and would know Itachi has it too*.


Any evidence regarding the bold ? 
Obito didn't know Itachi had Koto either. Why do we assume that he knows Itachi has Izanami ?
Not that it changes anything, Izanami is the most subtle technique we've ever seen. Knowing about it doesn't change a single thing in regards to how the fight will pan out.



> If Obito manages to cleanly grab Itachi he's done for anyway so I wouldn't even worry about it.


Itachi can hit him with flash activation Susano'o or Amaterasu, or it may turn out to be a clone.

All Itachi needs to do is to get a clone grabbed first and cast Izanami, and then repeat the same moment with a clone or with himself. Way too easy given Obito's extremely predictable moveset and attack patterns.



> By recognizing Itachi's attack patterns. This isn't hard. If Itachi has to force Obito into the exact physical sensation twice then Obito is going to be on the look out for it.


If he is forced into the same sensation twice, then it is over. Thats when Izanami kicks in.
And there is absolutely no chance he can know which moment Itachi is trying to replicate.



> But it doesn't even matter, because chances are Itachi will never be able to land a finger on Obito which makes the whole idea of Itachi creating the loop moot. Obito, on the other hand, can easily move in-and-around Itachi and create the loop and GG Izanami Itachi.


Itachi doesn't need to touch Obito. He needs Obito to touch him. He can easily use a clone to do that. 
Also how is Obito casting Izanami on Itachi when he doesn't even have it ? 



> Obito doesn't have to give up a thing, as he'll be the one dictating the physical contract and is more likely to just create the loop himself and use it against Itachi.


Why and how is Obito casting Izanami on Itachi ? 



> This is funny. You're whole argument literally centers around whether Itachi can create a loop with someone who can avoid physical contact at will. And with no explanation on how he would do so to boot.


And this is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored my argument. @ this point I am really wondering if you have a problem with reading comprehension or deliberately avoiding my points.
For the last time, hopefully : 
Itachi doesn't need to touch Obito. 



> But that's okay. We saw in the manga-canon that Itachi knew he couldn't kill Obito on his own so did some passive-aggressive shit through Sasuke instead. Even stated himself that he would need EMS to surpass him so I'll side with Itachi's on this one


Itachi never attempted to kill Obito, so we never got a chance to know whether he could kill him or not. 

Also he said he'd need EMS to surpass Madara, not Obito. Itachi didn't know who Obito was. Read your manga.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

Did not read the entire debate (too long, too boring). However, for Izanami to work their must be physical contact, and point A must be like A'.



> Itachi never attempted to kill Obito, so we never got a chance to know whether he could kill him or not.



He did with the Amatersu.



> Also he said he'd need EMS to surpass Madara, not Obito. Itachi didn't know who Obito was. Read your manga.



He was referring to Obito, not the real madara.

finger break
finger break


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

Bonly said:


> _*The Sannin*_
> 
> _*Previous Five Kage*_
> 
> ...



I thought A being weaker than Mei is interesting. 



Kyu said:


> Chapter 700/Gaiden Naruto. I'm trying to save Hokage 1-6 from the humiliation of being weaker than a teenager.



Kishi may have presented Minato as a bad father, but I really doubt that he would feel ashamed to see his son being the strongest there is as a teanager. I mean he couldn't have sucked that much, could he?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He did with the Amatersu.


You should have read that post more carefully.




> He was referring to Obito, not the real madara.
> 
> finger break
> finger break



He was referring to the guy with EMS. finger break


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> while minato has speed and refined hiraishin, tobirama has a larger chakra pool and wider varity of moves.



Who said Tobirama has larger chakra pool or wider varity of moves? Minato is superior to him in both of those departments. 



> He was referring to the guy with EMS


itachi has no clue what Madara's power looks like. His judgment is based on what he had seen from Obito.
Does not help that Obito's MS is far more broken than Madara's EMS anyway.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> itachi has not clue what Madara's power looks like.
> His judgment is based on what he had seen from Obito.



He knows about EMS, he told Sasuke about it, remember ? Itachi even had knowledge about Rinnegan's power, so he probably had a vague idea what EMS granted Madara 

And whether Tobi was Madara or not was irrelevant from his perspective because he thought it was Madara. So he thought that masked guy had all of Madara's power. Thats what Sasuke's eyes would allow him to surpass. Itachi never said anything about Obito.



> Does not help that Obito's MS is far more broken than Madara's EMS anyway.


EMS Madara  >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 MS Obito. Thats not even a fucking debate lol.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

1- The EMS is nothing special really, it only gives an eternal light, without any additional power. That is also all of what itachi mentioned about it. And before you say "PS", no, that's depends on the user's chakra, and it has nothing to do with EMS, so yeah, it did not grant Madara much besides having eternal light in his eyes. 

2- No, he did not think that. IIRC, he clearly stated that he is a shadow of himself or something, and even yet, he was not seeing himself stronger. Needless to say, Obito knows all of Madara's jutsu



> EMS Madara >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 MS Obito. Thats not even a fucking debate lol.



In raw power, yes. However, Madara can't land a finger on him, so all of his power is irrelevant really. Even as the Juubi's host, he couldn't do jackshit, let alone with only EMS. He can't win, that's obvious. Unless you somehow think EMS Madara is superior than JJ SM Rinnegan Madara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- The EMS is nothing special really, it only gives an eternal light, without any additional power. That is also all of what itachi mentioned about it. And before you say "PS", no, that's depends on the user's chakra, and it has nothing to do with EMS, so yeah, it did not grant Madara much besides having eternal light in his eyes.


Itachi mentioned an additional "technique."  Itachi even had knowledge about Rinnegan's power,
 Itachi even had knowledge about Rinnegan's power,
He also mentioned "newfound abilities."
Its clear that Itachi was aware of Madara's power, no need to get technical about it.



> 2- No, he did not think that. IIRC, he clearly stated that he is a shadow of himself or something, and even yet, he was not seeing himself stronger. Needless to say, Obito knows all of Madara's jutsu


After he described Madara's power, he said "right now he is a loser and he doesn't deserve the title anymore."
When Itachi said he'd surpass him, he was talking about surpassing him in his peak.
Why would Itachi see surpassing a loser as an accomplishment ? 
You can't get the "strongest Uchiha ever" title from him unless you become stronger than him when he had that title.



> In raw power, yes. However, Madara can't land a finger on him, so all of his power is irrelevant really. Even as the Juubi's host, he couldn't do jackshit, let alone with only EMS. He can't win, that's obvious. Unless you somehow think EMS Madara is superior than JJ SM Rinnegan Madara.



In that sense if Obito sits back and does nothing, no one can touch him, but he can't touch anyone either. You can only counter attack him when he is solid.

And again in that sense, 3 eyed JJ Madara can't touch him either.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

I forgot to mention those links are not really working with me for some reasons. 

Edit: they did now, so nvm. 

We have seen the EMS in so many fights. Really nothing special came out of it. Neither from Madara, nor from Sasuke. 
His information is probably wrong, just like the story about madara and Izuna in his head is nothing like Hashirama's story. 

1- I wouldn't put it pass him to know some about his power, but to assume that he knows about PS, then sorry, no. 
Even people who did fight him did not know about that (Onoki/Mu), so there is no way itachi could have known about it either. 



> Why would Itachi see surpassing a loser as an accomplishment ?


you don't won't me to answer that. lol 



> In that sense if Obito sits back and does nothing, no one can touch him, but he can't touch anyone either. You can only counter attack him when he is solid.
> 
> And again in that sense, 3 eyed JJ Madara can't touch him either.



He can touch them. He did that to Minato, to Naruto, to Kakashi, and to even JJ Madara. So, yeah, EMS Madara
wouldn't be able to do anything at all to him, unlike Obito who can simply suck him in, and keep there for God knows how long. U_U


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I forgot to mention those links are not really working with me for some reasons.
> 
> Edit: they did now, so nvm.
> 
> ...



Itachi knew about lots of things other people didn't. 

At that point in the manga, Madara was an enigma, so Ksihimoto obviously wouldn't be able to lay out all of his power to the readers eyes.

The point of that story is to show that Madara was very powerful and he was the strongest Uchiha ever lived and EMS allowed him to achieve all that.
Technical details are irrlelevant. 



> you don't won't me to answer that. lol


Its not that you don't, but you can't.



> He can touch them. He did that to Minato, to Naruto, to Kakashi, and to even JJ Madara. So, yeah, EMS Madara
> wouldn't be able to do anything at all to him, unlike Obito who can simply suck him in, and keep there for God knows how long. U_U



Neither of the people you mentioned had a 100m tall chakra construct surrounding them.

You'r basically saying Obito is stronger than EMS Madara ? Well, I'm not surprised because I've heard to make more ridiculous claims before


----------



## Kyu (May 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Confused about Kakashi, does he have sharingan or not? I put these stands assuming he does. If not, I'd move him to the bottom in a tie with Tsunade. Also are we counting Danzo in the running or not?



No sharingan. The Hokage are as they are during their reign.  I should've stated so in my opening post.



Hussain said:


> Kishi may have presented Minato as a bad father, but I really doubt that he would feel ashamed to see his son being the strongest there is as a teanager. I mean he couldn't have sucked that much, could he?



Wow you really don't like Minato do you?



Hussain said:


> Who said Tobirama has larger chakra pool



Senju lineage?

Senju lineage.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Wow you really don't like Minato do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- I hate how Kishi treated him in the War.  tho what does that post have to do with this conclusion of yours? O_o
- So? Where does it say that being a senju make you have more chakra than every single character
that is not a senju?

Tsunade is a senju AND a Uzumaki, and yet she has 4 in chakra. Jiraiya who is not, has 5. 
Minato is even a better SM user than Jiraiya, which mean he has even more chakra than him.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

> =Grimmjowsensei;53660723]Itachi knew about lots of things other people didn't.


All of which are wrong information. For example, he thought hatred is the way to get MS and made Sasuke hate more, and only think about hatred, when it was about love all along.

He thought Madara's vision got weaker, and he stole his brother's eyes, when it was nothing like that, and the truth is Izuna was dying and he gave Madara his eyes by his own will. 

He thought only him, Sasuke and "Madara" to be the survivors, when there was shin and the other guy. 

He believed the masked man is madara, when he was obito all along. And so on, and so forth.


> At that point in the manga, Madara was an enigma, so Ksihimoto obviously wouldn't be able to lay out all of his power to the readers eyes.


Does not make any favour to itachi's knowledge, really.  


> The point of that story is to show that Madara was very powerful and he was the strongest Uchiha ever lived and EMS allowed him to achieve all that.
> Technical details are irrlelevant.


Onoki and the others believed the same. They never knew about his PS tho. 



> Its not that you don't, but you can't.


I was going to say it's because itachi was a bigger loser. 



> Neither of the people you mentioned had a 100m tall chakra construct surrounding them.



And how is that relevant when Obito can appear in the sky and/or walk through it?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> All of which are wrong information. For example, he thought hatred is the way to get MS and made Sasuke hate more, and only think about hatred, when it was about love all along.


Where the fuck did you get that from ? 

Itachi fired Sasuke's hatred as a motiviation device, not a way obtain to MS.



> He thought Madara's vision got weaker, and he stole his brother's eyes, when it was nothing like that, and the truth is Izuna was dying and he gave Madara his eyes by his own will.


Hashirama didn't mention the detail about Madara losing vision because @ that point i was a known fact. He never mentioned any details of that part. From Hashirama's point of view, Madara left the battlefield with his wounded brother, and the next time  they met, he had EMS.

And that doesn't change the result anyway, Madara took his brothers eyes and achieved EMS just like Itachi told us.



> He thought only him, Sasuke and "Madara" to be the survivors, when there was shin and the other guy.


Those guys appeared 10+ years after Itachi died. We have no idea who they are or what they are yet.
You'r really starting to reach now 



> He believed the masked man is madara, when he was obito all along. And so on, and so forth.


Masked man knew everything Madara knew, he had access to most of his resources, he had 
black Zetsu guiding him and he acted like Madara.
That has nothing to do with the accuracy of the historical details he knew.



> Does not make any favour to itachi's knowledge, really.


It actually does and the outline of his stroy has always been intact anyways. 
I still don't see what you'r trying to dismiss here.



> Onoki and the others believed the same. They never knew about his PS tho.


I am pretty sure Onoki didn't know the specifics of the history of the Uchiha either.



> I was going to say it's because itachi was a bigger loser.


You could t hink that, but from a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense.
@ that point Kishimoto wasn't trying to emphasize how big of a loser Itachi was, he was trying to establish that Madara was extremely powerful with EMS and Itachi was a power hungry psychopath who was trying to achieve that power by taking his brothers eyes.



> And how is that relevant when Obito can appear in the sky and/or walk through it?



He can't get to Madara through PS. He needs to stay intangiblle in PS and he can't do shit.


----------



## Yagura (May 25, 2015)

Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu would wreck him, sure, but I could see the Third Raikage as being on Itachi's tier from the fact that he has a comparable defense that he doesn't have to expend himself for and that he can use his strongest offense continuously. That, and his superior speed and obviously stamina.

And then there's black lightning and that magic pot if you want to consider those.


----------



## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

I'll go to this point directly, because I am honestly tired, and not really interested that much currently. 



> He can't get to Madara through PS. He needs to stay intangiblle in PS and he can't do shit.



Who said he can't?
Obito can go through chakra like in chapter 609 when Naruto attacked him with his chakra arm. People can be inside the Susanoo like when itachi surrounded Sasuke with his Susanoo's arm when Kabuto attacked with his cave stones (Don't know what do they call), the same thing with Sasuke and Naruto when he was trying to protect him from the Gedu-dama when it was about to explode. We have seen all of team 7 inside of Sasuke's PS as well....etc


I can't put links now because Manga panda is not working well with me. -_-


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

1 question between obito and itachi
can obito actually grab itachi when he is inside susanoo?

i ask because obito physical speed is horribly inferior to that of susanoo. so even if obito attempted a grab, he would be trying to touch itachi while surrounded by itachi chakra. i hope one gets why this is a dumb idea right

obito believed sasuke could keep the kage hostage thanks to double MS, i.e susanoo. granted a massive exaggeration of sasuke abilities. it is however somethign obito thought he couldnt do 

just saying susanoo camping could be a very good counter to obito ability


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu would wreck him, sure, but I could see the Third Raikage as being on Itachi's tier from the fact that he has a comparable defense that he doesn't have to expend himself for and that he can use his strongest offense continuously. That, and his superior speed and obviously stamina.
> 
> And then there's black lightning and that magic pot if you want to consider those.



Sharingan precog renders his superior speed pretty redundant. Itachi can just as easily react and outmanuver Sandaime Raikage as Sasuke was able to outmanuver A. 

Amaterasu > Sandaime
Tsukiyomi > Sandaime
Susano'o > Sandaime

I don't see how they can be in the same tier.



Hussain said:


> Who said he can't?
> Obito can go through chakra like in chapter 609 when Naruto attacked him with his chakra arm. People can be inside the Susanoo like when itachi surrounded Sasuke with his Susanoo's arm when Kabuto attacked with his cave stones (Don't know what do they call), the same thing with Sasuke and Naruto when he was trying to protect him from the Gedu-dama when it was about to explode. We have seen all of team 7 inside of Sasuke's PS as well....etc
> 
> 
> I can't put links now because Manga panda is not working well with me. -_-


A Susano'o user can willingly let other people in, but I don't think anyone can just walk in like that. It is a mass of chakra, it is not an empty space.

In that sense how can Obito go through PS ? He surely can let it phase through him, but he can't materialize inside Susano'o.


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## Ryuzaki (May 25, 2015)

Kyu said:


> No sharingan. The Hokage are as they are during their reign.  I should've stated so in my opening post.


Ahh okay then for that, I would rank Itachi among the Hokages like this:

*Hokage*
Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
*Itachi*
Danzo
Kakashi = Hiruzen
Tsunade


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## StickaStick (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi knew Tobi/Madara's character : ST
> ST
> Nice try tho


I had forgotten about this but to be fair you should have used "we" instead of "Itachi" in your last response. The way you wrote made it sound like a possibility and not something that was a fact. But you got me here.



> Yeah he does, going by Itachi's description of him.


Nope, Izanami candidates are those that have an inner-strife or some kind of personal denial. Obito might have fit that bill pre-conversion, but Itachi's description of Madara here absolutely does not.



> Any evidence regarding the bold ?


Madara taught Obito all the Uchiha Kinjutsu.



> Obito didn't know Itachi had Koto either. Why do we assume that he knows Itachi has Izanami ?


Koto in an MS technique specific to it's owner's eyes; Izanami apparently can be learned by anyone with a Sharingan. All far as why Obito would know Itachi has it, uh, because that's the kind of thing Itachi would have and Obito would know that based on how studious Itachi was of Uchiha history (i.e., reading the tablet). To think Obito wouldn't know would be the crazier suggestion based on Obito and Itachi's relationship. Not to mention that Obito was always one or two steps ahead of Itachi so from a pure story perspective it would make sense as well.



> Itachi can hit him with flash activation Susano'o or Amaterasu, or it may turn out to be a clone.


How is Itachi going to hit him with Ama if he's grabbing him from behind and why would Itachi flash activate Susanoo when according to you he's trying to be touched? 

If Itachi is trying to bait Obito with a clone that means he'll be giving off the impression that he's trying to be warped. With a little due diligence this becomes clear quite quickly. Hell, Obito doesn't even _need _to know Itachi wants to create a loop to be suspicious of Itachi's clone game--that's common sense against him. You could assume Obito doesn't have knowledge on Itachi having Izanami and I doubt it would change Obito's strategy all that much. 



> All Itachi needs to do is to get a clone grabbed first and cast Izanami, and then repeat the same moment with a clone or with himself. Way too easy given Obito's extremely predictable moveset and attack patterns.


If Itach is using clones then Obito will try to discern which is the real Itachi and which is the fake one. Considering how Obito was able to fodderize KCM Naruto's clones in short order I don't think this will be a problem. 



> If he is forced into the same sensation twice, then it is over. Thats when Izanami kicks in.
> And there is absolutely no chance he can know which moment Itachi is trying to replicate.


Except he'll never be forced into the same physical sensation twice.



> Itachi doesn't need to touch Obito. He needs Obito to touch him. He can easily use a clone to do that.


Or knowing Itachi's propensity to stealthy utilize clones will put a trucked-sized shuriken into him instead.



> Also how is Obito casting Izanami on Itachi when he doesn't even have it ?


Of course he has it, he was taught all of the Uchiha Kinjutsu.  



> Why and how is Obito casting Izanami on Itachi ?


Uh, by creating his own loop and using it against Itachi 

Itachi before his death was a ripe Izanami candidate as he himself eluded to. Instead of Itachi creating the loop Obito could do it instead which will be made immensily easily by the fact that he'll be the one initiating all the contract as he so chooses.



> And this is the 3rd or 4th time you've ignored my argument. @ this point I am really wondering if you have a problem with reading comprehension or deliberately avoiding my points.
> For the last time, hopefully :
> Itachi doesn't need to touch Obito.


Then how is he going create the loop? Oh I forgot, Obito w/knowledge is going to fall for a clone feint by warping it and then _doing the same thing again_ to either another clone or the real Itachi. Explain to me what happens when Itachi tries to bait Obito into warping a clone and Obito opts to test if it's a clone instead? Is Itachi going to keep making clones and expending his charka in this futile effort? 

What's Itachi strategy for when Obito pressures him with truck-sized shurikens, Juubi-sized Katons, and Mokuton that will require more than a flash-activation of Susanoo, which means more chakra expended on Itachi's part? What's Itachi strategy for when he tries to bait Obito into warping him (or a clone) Obito puts a shuriken into his back instead, since you know, Itachi has to intentionally not defend himself if he wants Obito to make contact with him? I could go on if you like.



> Itachi never attempted to kill Obito


Yeah, Itachi apparently knew better.



> Also he said he'd need EMS to surpass Madara, not Obito. Itachi didn't know who Obito was. Read your manga.


Nah, you read the manga man. What you're saying makes no sense. We have two options here, we can believe that Itachi was either referring to:

(1) Surpassing a Prime Madara, which is the most laughable thing I've read yet. At the very most, and I'm being generous here, EMS would put Itachi _somewhere near_ EMS Mads' level. With all we and Itachi know that Prime Madara was capable of Itachi would have to be the biggest dunce on the shinobi planet to think that he could rival--let alone *surpass*--a Prime Madara merely by obtaining EMS. Or we can believe,

(2) Surpassing Tobi/Obito who you could actually make a case for Itachi surpassing with EMS; although personally I'm not sure how much benefit something like EMS would have for someone with rather limited chakra stores such as Itachi, but that's something else.

Not what's the more sensible option here?


----------



## Yagura (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sharingan precog renders his superior speed pretty redundant. Itachi can just as easily react and outmanuver Sandaime Raikage as Sasuke was able to outmanuver A.
> 
> Amaterasu > Sandaime
> Tsukiyomi > Sandaime
> ...



Did he? I haven't revisited that arc. 

Either way, though, his superior speed is just icing. It's mostly from him being able stay at his 100% strongest all the time whilst Itachi can only do so in short bursts. He is essentially a living, human Susano'o... but faster and with a better offense. Relative to MS users.

He'd still lose to Itachi of course (not to his Susano'o though). But I think, this considered - their within the same tier.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

they are in the same tier because the people itachi can beat or 1 panel 
sandaime raikage can do the same 



@stickastick 

If itachi is in susanoo obito only way to attack is from under which is very predictable. unless u think obito would phase through susanoo and appear to touch itachi while being completely covered by itachi susanoo. considering its chakra, itachi can manipulate at will. That would be fairly silly of obito 

obito isn't beating itachi unless itachi runs out of steam. 

attacking from under seeing that its predictable means that's all itachi has to watch out for. its not like obito attacks can even slightly damage susanoo. And like I said phasing through to grab itachi inside of his own chakra is very silly. seeing that said chakra can change shape at will

sasuke was abel to activate level 1 while his sword was inches away from his neck. just saying susanoo can be activated quickly and its shape can change at will. worst idea for obito to try grabbing itachi inside of itachi own jutsu

btw if obito wraps a clone he has effectively lost the battle. the clone would be in kamui land. which means no more phasing. no phasing and obito dies pathetically against itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I had forgotten about this but to be fair you should have used "we" instead of "Itachi" in your last response. The way you wrote made it sound like a possibility and not something that was a fact. But you got me here.
> 
> 
> Nope, Izanami candidates are those that have an inner-strife or some kind of personal denial. Obito might have fit that bill pre-conversion, but Itachi's description of Madara here absolutely does not.
> ...




Dude, this is a waste of time.

Not only you'r saying that Obito knows about Izanami(there is no way to tell eitherway, but going by manga knowledge it is logical to assume he doesn't), but  you'r also saying that he can cast it as well. So you've not only granted him knowledge on something he hasn't seen on panel, or made any indication of knowing, but you also granted him the ability to use it as well, again without any indication or implication that he can use it, neither in the manga or the databook.

Also all of the Juubi sized Katon and truck sized Shurikens are war arc Obito's feats, in other words when he had the Rinnegan. 

I also proved that Itachi wasn't referring to Obito(he didn't know who he was, as he believed masked man was Madara) but Madara in my debate with Hussain. I already wasted some of time for 3 or 4 posts for that subject, so I'll appreciate it if you can read it instead.

Anyways, I made my case and I won't further pursue it.
TL;DR version :

- Obito's pscyhe makes him a perfect Izanami candidate.
- Being a one trick pony with predictable fighting style gives opportunity to wrap up the loop fairly quickly.
- Itachi is a clone user, so IF by any chance Obito warps a clone, that doesn't  only leave room for Izanagi but also having a clone in the kamui land leaves him open for attacks coming from the other side, which makes phasing extremely dangerous. We know he is dead meat if he can't phase out.
- If Obito decides to finish off a clone with a kunai, as a countermeasure against what I mentioned above, then he gives Itachi the opportunity to cast Izanami, the same way he did against Kabuto.
- There is absolutely no way for Obito to tell when/how Itachi will cast Izanami or when/how he'll  close the loop.



Yagura said:


> Did he? I haven't revisited that arc.
> 
> Either way, though, his superior speed is just icing. It's mostly from him being able stay at his 100% strongest all the time whilst Itachi can only do so in short bursts. He is essentially a living, human Susano'o... but faster and with a better offense. Relative to MS users.
> 
> He'd still lose to Itachi of course (not to his Susano'o though). But I think, this considered - their within the same tier.



Yeah, he outmanuvered A and landed a hit on him, the same way Sage Naruto did to Sandaime.

Also I don't see how Sandaime's offense can be better than Totsuka. Totsuka is a guaranteed kill. Nukite isn't, against people like Orochimaru or Tsunade.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

SO when its suits grimm A can kill orochimaru by punching his head but nikute cant be used to chop tsunade or orochimaru head off

 gotta love the leafing on that one


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## Kyu (May 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Ahh okay then for that, I would rank Itachi among the Hokages like this:
> 
> *Hokage*
> Naruto
> ...



My bad, didn't see your earlier question; Danzo isn't included seeing as he never officially became Hokage nor is he recognized as one.


___________


*@Hussain:* I'll reply to your shit later.


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## Hexa (May 25, 2015)

2ch's tier list (with 23,000 posts) has Itachi one rank below Obito (not MS only, though), the same rank as Nagato, and two ranks above Jiraiya.  I think that's pretty accurate.

Danzou might win though if he's included with Kotoamatsukami. We know the technique is effective against Itachi, after all.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Hexa said:


> 2ch's tier list (with 23,000 posts) has Itachi one rank below Obito (not MS only, though), the same rank as Nagato, and two ranks above Jiraiya.  I think that's pretty accurate.
> 
> Danzou might win though if he's included with Kotoamatsukami. We know the technique is effective against Itachi, after all.



I am surprised would have thought most would rank nagato above both of them

I have never understood why anyone would rank obito with just MS above nagato when obito cant even touch nagato to save his life.


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## StickaStick (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not only you'r saying that Obito knows about Izanami(there is no way to tell eitherway, but going by manga knowledge it is logical to assume he doesn't), but  you'r also saying that he can cast it as well. So you've not only granted him knowledge on something he hasn't seen on panel, or made any indication of knowing, but you also granted him the ability to use it as well, again without any indication or implication that he can use it, neither in the manga or the databook.


Bruh, I've already said I believe twice in my last post that Obito was taught all the Uchiha Kinjutsu. Not sure why you ignored this but here's the panel for your pleasure:
No????

And tbh I can't take any claims that he can't use it because he's never shown it seriously when in the past you've argued that Itachi can control the Kyuubi with weaker evidence then what we have here. So please save that nonsense.

I obviously can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Obito would know that Itachi can use Izanami, but I don't think I need to prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. Obito knew Itachi better than anyone and was even stated to have been his mentor. Furthermore, if anyone would expect Itachi to be able to use Izanami it would be Obito. If you want to take the stance that with less than 100% iron-clad proof you can't accept that as proof enough, that's cool. I would only ask for an honest assessment asking whether if at the beginning of a hypothetical Obito-Itachi matchup would Obito look at Itachi and based on what he knows about Itachi as a ninja and as a student of history--particularly Uchiha history--assess the possibility that Itachi would have  Uchiha dojutsu Izanami at his disposal and plan around that assessment accordingly. If your answer is no, fine. I personally find that rather hard to believe but I'm not going to be able to convince otherwise.

Regardless, as I said even with a lack of knowledge on whether Itachi has Izanami or not I don't believe it changes much in how Obito would approach fighting Itachi, as he will without dispute be extremely conscious of Itachi's clone game and the fact that warping a clone into Kamuiland means trouble for him and could spell the end of the match.



> Also all of the Juubi sized Katon and truck sized Shurikens are war arc Obito's feats, in other words when he had the Rinnegan.


Yes, and Izanami was a War-Arc feat for Itachi 

And the Rinnegan has nothing to do with the abilities I listed. 



> I also proved that Itachi wasn't referring to Obito(he didn't know who he was, as he believed masked man was Madara) but Madara in my debate with Hussain. I already wasted some of time for 3 or 4 posts for that subject, so I'll appreciate it if you can read it instead.


I read it and suffice to say I'm not convinced. I know I'm not going to change your mind because I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before but all I ask is that you ask yourself if you seriously believe Itachi thought with EMS that that would put him above a _Prime EMS Madara_. I'm not talking about being on the same tier with but outright _surpassing _as Itachi stated; or if the Obito (as Tobi) interpretation makes more sense. That's all. 



> Anyways, I made my case and I won't further pursue it.


Fair enough; I think we can both agree that they're more-or-less around the same level and any fight between the two as outlined here would be fairly close.


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## pluuuuffff (May 26, 2015)

The Hokage

1? Naruto
2? Hashirama
3? Tobirama
4? Minato/ *Itachi*
5? Hiruzen
6? Kakashi
7? Tsunade


The Sannin

*1? Itachi*
2? Jiraiya
3? Orochimaru
4? Tsunade

Previous Five Kage

*1? Itachi*
2? Onoki
3? Gaara
4? Ei
5? Tsunade
6? Mei

Edo Kage

*1? Itachi*
2? Muu/Gengetsu
3? Third Raikage
4? Rasa


The Akatsuki

1? Nagato/ Pain (both are ahead of the 2nd place)
*2? Itachi*
3? Obito (1 MS)
4? Kisame
5? Konan
6? Kakuzu
7? Sasori
8? Deidara
9? Hidan


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## Trojan (May 26, 2015)

Kyu said:


> *@Hussain:* I'll reply to your shit later.



I don't say shit Kyu. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A Susano'o user can willingly let other people in, but I don't think anyone can just walk in like that. It is a mass of chakra, it is not an empty space.
> 
> In that sense how can Obito go through PS ? He surely can let it phase through him, but he can't materialize inside Susano'o.



Obviously it's empty from the inside. Otherwise how could Gaara's sand catch Madara and through him out of it?


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

by attacking with the sand under madara feet. it doesnt need to be empty inside for that to work. same way kaiten isnt empty inside but gaara can still easily grab a kaiten user using the sand under their feet



sure we all knew that.


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## Yagura (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, he outmanuvered A and landed a hit on him


...you mean when he dodged his elbow? Yeah, I suppose that's nice, but calling that 'outmaneuvering' is a bit much. If memory serves, A proceeded to 'maneuver' Sasuke's spine into the ground.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also I don't see how Sandaime's offense can be better than Totsuka. Totsuka is a guaranteed kill.



If it can pierce, that is. In terms of pure destructive power - Nukite is far superior... at least by feats. And Sandaime should have some nice sealing hax of his own with that magic pot, again, if you want to consider that.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

Yagura said:


> ...you mean when he dodged his elbow? Yeah, I suppose that's nice, but calling that 'outmaneuvering' is a bit much. If memory serves, A proceeded to 'maneuver' Sasuke's spine into the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> If it can pierce, that is. In terms of pure destructive power - Nukite is far superior... at least by feats. And Sandaime should have some nice sealing hax of his own with that magic pot, again, if you want to consider that.



how could he consider it. 

he the same guy who claims nikute cant kill orochimaru on this thread

yet in the A vs orochimaru thread a punch from A to orochimaru head  kills . 

i guess nikute cant be aimed at orochimaru head. 

these 2 are clearly on the same level 

sealing both got that
hax offense both got that
hax defense both got that 

the rest is semantics tbh. there isnt a single character itachi can beat that the raikage cannot


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Previous Five Kage
> 
> *1? Itachi*
> 2? Onoki
> ...


Wow, you have Itachi above the Edo Kages and the Five Kages? Not only that but Obito as well?


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## pluuuuffff (May 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Wow, you have Itachi above the Edo Kages and the Five Kages? Not only that but Obito as well?



I do. What are your thoughs about that?


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Itachi being above the Edo Kages isn't that ridiculous. I personally believe he is as well.

 MS Obito is debatable though. I would think MS Obito would be able to outlast him.


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## pluuuuffff (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi being above the Edo Kages isn't that ridiculous. I personally believe he is as well.
> 
> MS Obito is debatable though. I would think MS Obito would be able to outlast him.



I've the same opinion. 

If it was DMS Obito or Rinnegan Obito it was obvious though.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi being above the Edo Kages isn't that ridiculous. I personally believe he is as well.
> 
> MS Obito is debatable though. I would think MS Obito would be able to outlast him.



itachi being able to beat them isnt ridiculous at all. However being a clean level above. i believe is simply incorrect

*genjutsu* 

itachi main asset. As far as scale is concerned he is outclassed. considering gengetsu genjutus really is more of a mist thing. took out a division, despite 1000's of partners 2 hokage level opponents couldnt free themselves. thats more than itachi has ever done with genjutsu

*sealing*

totsuka vs amber pot. amber pot no knowledge is far easier to land. also note the raikage used it to seal the hachibi more than once. so despite its knowledge it still got trolled. 

*1 shot ninjutsu*

jinton trolls amaterasu in firepower. 

*Defense*

Sandaime RCM and body by feats exceed itachi's by hype possibly even so 

So basically in all categories 1 of them are better than him in. overall yes he would be slightly better than any, but ever so slightly


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> I do. What are your thoughs about that?


I had him above most of the kages, except for Muu and Oonoki. I actually have him tied with Muu and greater than or equal to Oonoki. I don't know how much Itachi can do against these opponents, they are both earth users and can use dust element, only reason Madara survived was do to his Rin'negan, I don't think he would have been so nonchalant about it, had he not had it.

Also, I don't see why Obito isn't your top for Akatsuki, he has easily the most broken defense and offense. The phasing ability gives him a great advantage, Kakashi, Killer Bee, Gai and RM Naruto couldn't deal with him, until they figured out his power. He essentially wasn't using the Rin'negan for battle against them, because he was using it enslave the bijuus at the time.


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## Yagura (May 27, 2015)

Pain > Itachi > Obito imo. 

Pain's shared vision makes ambushing impossible, and coordinated attacks makes warping the paths a bit difficult. We've seen that Nagato is able to control them in different dimensions to boot, so yeah, his only relevant offense is going to come with a big draw back. Pain should beat Obito with mid difficulty.

As for Itachi, some intelligent usage of exploding clones and a well timed Amaterasu along with being one of the few situations where Izanami is viable spells him the win. He should win with high difficulty.

His Kamui is nigh impossible to get around as defensive measure, yeah - but, when used offensively, he's probably going to need a new arm.


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

T-Bag, educate yourself. Itachi _ducked _Tobi/Obito for years and said he needed EMS to _surpass _him. Now that's respect


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## T-Bag (May 27, 2015)

Obito never had EMS lol. He figured Obito was Madara and hence needed an equal doujutsu if he were to compete, in other words OVERESTIMATED his power due to his name/history, just like the shinobi alliance.

Moot point.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Obito never had EMS lol. He figured Obito was Madara and hence needed an equal doujutsu if he were to compete, in other words OVERESTIMATED his power, just like the shinobi alliance.
> 
> Moot point.



Except Itachi knew "Madara" was a shell of his former self and still didn't have it in him to confront him directly.


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## T-Bag (May 27, 2015)

because itachi was a smart man. You dont know what "madara" is capable of despite him being a shell. "he is alive and well as are the eyes and their power"

again. he figured madara still had the same eye powers from the past.


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## ZE (May 27, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> not to mention kabuto explicitly stated itachi was on a different level from NAGATO (who > Pain), kirabi and naruto.



A minute later, through his actions we were led to believe he thought Nagato could take on Naruto, Killerbee and Itachi.


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Obito never had EMS lol. He figured Obito was Madara and hence needed an equal doujutsu if he were to compete, in other words OVERESTIMATED his power due to his name/history, just like the shinobi alliance.
> 
> Moot point.



He said *surpass* my man. That only makes sense in the context of surpassing a "washed-up Madara", as in Tobi/Obito. If Itachi thought he was standing up to (let alone exceeding) a Prime EMS Madara with just EMS then he would be very foolish indeed; but that's not what he thought so we'll leave it there.

and lol @ this "Itachi was being careful that's why he didn't go after Tobi" shit. According to you and many other of his fans Itachi always brings home the goods... except when he doesn't want to. Face it, he ducked him because he knew better.


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## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> and said he needed EMS to _surpass _him. Now that's respect



Today Madara is a _*pathetic shell*_ of his former self.

Itachi said he needed the EMS to surpass the _invincible_ Madara in times past. He held no reverence for the "pathetic shell" that was pulling string because he could no longer move mountains.​


StickaStick said:


> T-Bag, educate yourself. Itachi _ducked _Tobi/Obito for years.





Itachi was publicly a member of Akatsuki. Obito was the one hiding in the shadows, guarding his secrets. Because if he didn't, Itachi would have killed him, and he knew that.​
He's not the type of person that can be dealt with physical attacks. However, there is still a way.

This movie was written by Kishimoto. We see Itachi and Obito face off here. There is no concern in Itachi. On the contrary, he's already deduced how to counter Kamui. Obito withdraws immediately.

This ties together the relationship in Akatsuki that we already see. Obito doesn't make a direct move and _doesn't show his face_ until he knows Itachi is about go through with his plan to die.​


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

Strat, it would probably help to have all of your thoughts and points in order before you post so that way when others are typing up a response what they're trying to respond to isn't constantly changing. Just a friendly suggestion. 



Strategoob said:


> Today Madara is a _*pathetic shell*_ of his former self.
> 
> Itachi said he needed the EMS to surpass the _invincible_ Madara in times past. He held no reverence for the "pathetic shell" that was pulling string because he could no longer move mountains.​


If you truly believe that then that only calls Itachi's judgment into question, as with what we've seen of EMS Madara and based on what Itachi told Sasuke, EMS would at the most have put Itachi into the same vicinity as him. And Itachi said _surpass_. Think about that, and be honest with yourself.



> ​



All this points towards is how Obito was always a step ahead of Itachi, so I'm not sure why you're bringing this here.



> Itachi was publicly a member of Akatsuki. Obito was the one hiding in the shadows, guarding his secrets. *Because if he didn't, Itachi would have killed him, and he knew that*.


Pure, unsubstantiated fan-fiction. We know why Obito stayed in the shadows, and it had nothing to do with Itachi. No, in fact, Itachi was the one who passive-aggressively tried to kill Obito through Sasuke (and failed).



> *Spoiler*: _Movie written by Kishimoto_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anime, filler trash. Sorry, but when you have to resort to bringing this kind of stuff up you're reaching indeed.



> This ties together the relationship in Akatsuki that we already see. Obito doesn't make a direct move and _doesn't show his face_ until he knows Itachi is about go through with his plan to die.[/indent]


And why do you think that was?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Strat, it would probably help to have all of your thoughts and points in order before you post so that way when others are typing up a response what they're trying to respond to isn't constantly changing. Just a friendly suggestion.



Nobody has ever suggested that before. I'll work on that.



StickaStick said:


> Anime, filler trash. Sorry, but when you have to resort to bringing this kind of stuff up you're reaching indeed.



The author of the manga wrote that movie. If you don't think him writing a scene of adult Itachi and Obito facing off offers insight on how he views the two characters stacking up, then you're simply in denial.


----------



## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

> The author of the manga wrote that movie.


And it's still filler, as is every other movie with possibly the exception of _The Last_.



> If you don't think him writing a scene of adult Itachi and Obito facing off offers insight on how he views the two characters stacking up, then you're simply in denial.


I think he wrote a scene that he thought fans might have wanted to see and put no real thought into it. To pretend to know whether Kishi meant it to be taken as anything other than fan-service is, again, reaching.  

Furthermore, Itachi's statement on Obito's ability isn't even factually correct; it's not that physical attacks won't work per se, but that they have to be timed properly (something incredibly tough to do granted). Something Minato figured out pretty quickly and accurately


----------



## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> To pretend to know whether Kishi meant it to be taken as anything other than fan-service is, again, reaching.



I'm merely pointing out that _the author of the manga wrote the two character standing off in another medium_, and it was in Itachi's favor. That's obviously worth noting.​


StickaStick said:


> Furthermore, Itachi's statement on Obito's ability isn't even factually correct; it's not that physical attacks won't work per se



What physical attack, unaided by ninjutsu or genjutsu, would really work on Obito, in your opinion? Itachi was correct in the sense that physical attacks in themselves won't do any good.​


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not pretending to know anything. I'm merely pointing out that _Kishi wrote the two character standing off_, and it was Itachi's favor.​



Didn't a battleworn base naruto end up not only beating Obito in that movie, but also somehow pulling off the same hirashin blitz minato did with just a shunshin?


----------



## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm merely pointing out that _the author of the manga wrote the two character standing off in another medium_, and it was in Itachi's favor. *That's obviously worth noting.*​


Correction: you want it to be worth noting despite the fact that it's anime filler largely geared towards fan service and fantasy scenarios. 

Your interpretation of Obito "running" being in Itachi's favor is flawed anyway.



> What physical attack, unaided by ninjutsu or genjutsu, would really work on Obito, in your opinion? I*tachi was correct in the sense that physical attacks in themselves won't do any good.*​


Except that's not what Itachi said; there were no qualifications in his statement (i.e., "dealt with physical attacks" _except..._).



ueharakk said:


> Didn't a battleworn base naruto end up not only beating Obito in that movie, but also somehow pulling off the same hirashin blitz minato did with just a shunshin?


Is that true? I haven't seen the movie. If so that's about all we need to know here.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Didn't a battleworn base naruto end up not only beating Obito in that movie, but also somehow pulling off the same hirashin blitz minato did with just a shunshin?



You're thinking a battle-worn Menma.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Correction: you want it to be worth noting despite the fact that it's anime filler largely geared towards fan service and fantasy scenarios.



I think any unbiased person would agree with me. If George Lucas wrote a fight between Darth Maul and young Anakin in a spin-off novel, then it would still be hella' relevant to match-ups between the two, because it's still George Lucas writing the encounter.​


StickaStick said:


> Except that's not what Itachi said; there were no qualifications in his statement (i.e., "dealt with physical attacks" _except..._).



There don't need to be qualifications. He said physical attacks wouldn't work. What physical attack, _without ninjutsu or genjutsu_, would work? If you can't think of one, then he was correct for all intents and purposes and the point is moot.​


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're thinking a battle-worn Menma.



....who had all of Obito's powers and was possessed by Obito...


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## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> ....who had all of Obito's powers and was possessed by Obito...



How could he use Kamui if he didn't have the Kamui eye? Not to mention without Hashirama's cells and Menma's body low on chakra, Obito wouldn't really be able to use Kamui anyway. 

And even if he could, Menma was so exhausted that slower reactions are acceptable i.e. _when base Naruto threw a clone at Deva Path from 30 meters away and finished him with a small Rasengan_.​


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> How could he use Kamui if he didn't have the Kamui eye?​



 are you arguing that he didn't have Kamui?  Who's sharingan is he even using?



Strategoob said:


> Moreover, why would a shunshin strategy be ineffective if Menma's body was out of chakra, unlike Obito's body against Minato?


....because menma's body obviously wasn't out of chakra proven by showing no signs of chakra exhaustion and the fact that chakra was never an issue for obito's kamui, he even used it unconsciously while in a near death state, the only issue is a time limit.


----------



## T-Bag (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> He said *surpass* my man. That only makes sense in the context of surpassing a "washed-up Madara", as in Tobi/Obito. If Itachi thought he was standing up to (let alone exceeding) a Prime EMS Madara with just EMS then he would be very foolish indeed; but that's not what he thought so we'll leave it there.
> 
> and lol @ this "Itachi was being careful that's why he didn't go after Tobi" shit. According to you and many other of his fans Itachi always brings home the goods... except when he doesn't want to. Face it, he ducked him because he knew better.



you realize surpassing a "washed up madara" doesnt even make sense right? Itachi said TODAY madara is garbage and does not deserve the *TITLE *of the ultimate uchiha. despite him being a shell of his former self, he still held the _title_ because no one had achieved his lvl of strength from the old days, so itachi wanted to challenge/surpass him by obtaining the EMS. the EMS was the ultimate eye power, so itachi needs that if he wants to be at least on the same rank.

like who the fuck looks to surpass garbage? lol come on son. think before u speak. itachi was being groomed to be the next Madara, "the ultimate uchiha" (or so kishi had us believe at the time)


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think any unbiased person would agree with me. If George Lucas wrote a fight between Yoda and Anakin in a spin-off novel, then it would still be hella' relevant to match-ups between the two, because it's still George Lucas writing the encounter.​


No; if we took a cue from you then ppl would go wild with the filler movies and the interpretations that could be made from them that would effectively break the canon. Really, you're looking too far into this. 



> *There don't need to be*. He said physical attacks wouldn't work. What physical attack, without ninjutsu or genjutsu, would work? If you can't think of one that Itachi or Sakura had access to, then he was correct for all intents and purposes and the point is moot.​


Yes, there does. Itachi statement was clear cut and it's wrong. 

Obito was "dealt" with Minato's Rasengan, which is a physical attack. There's nothing more to this.



T-Bag said:


> you realize surpassing a "washed up madara" doesnt even make sense right? Itachi said TODAY madara is garbage and does not deserve the *TITLE *of the ultimate uchiha. despite him being a shell of his former self, he still held the title as the strongest because of his history, so itachi wanted to surpass that
> 
> *like who the fuck looks to surpass garbage?* lol come on son. think before u speak. keep in mind itachi was being groomed to be the next Madara (or so kishi had us believe at the time)


Ask Itachi, he said it. 

Your interpretation would lead us to believe Itachi thought w/EMS he could be > Prime EMS Madara, which is beyond crazy and a thought not even worth entertaining.


----------



## Puppetry (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think any unbiased person would agree with me. If George Lucas wrote a fight between Darth Maul and young Anakin in a spin-off novel, then it would still be hella' relevant to match-ups between the two, because it's still George Lucas writing the encounter.​



Or it could have been an idea/dynamic considered for the main plot but then discarded and resurrected for a spin-off, especially in a story that's all about inversions and divergent realities.

I mean, wasn't Sakura keeping up with Obito/Menma, pre-Byakugō? How do you figure the implications of that into canon?


----------



## T-Bag (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Ask Itachi, he said it.
> 
> Your interpretation would lead us to believe Itachi thought w/EMS he could be > Prime EMS Madara, which is beyond crazy and a thought not even worth entertaining.



Sasuke with EMS became Prime Madara lvl, did he not? 

so what's wrong with believing itachi could do the same (assuming EMS)

again, think. lol


----------



## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> No; if we took a cue from you then ppl would go wild with the filler movies



I've always accepted movies written by the author as reasonable evidence of the author's opinion on how characters would interact._ Because he's writing how they interact_.​


Puppetry said:


> I mean, wasn't Sakura keeping up with Obito/Menma, pre-Byakugō?



Was she? That's still way below blitzing Kaguya when Rinnegan Sasuke couldn't. So we're good.​


StickaStick said:


> Obito was "dealt" with Minato's Rasengan, which is a physical attack. There's nothing more to this.



You're using a different definition of physical. The first definition is pertaining to the body i.e. bodily techniques, tajutsu. If it's all _matter_, then everything in Naruto is a "physical" attack.

It's easy to say "No, he's wrong." when you purposefully misinterpret what he means. He was clearly planning to use ninjutsu and genjutsu as opposed to Sakura's strength.

Yet genjutsu manipulates matter in the body and brain, and ninjutsu manipulates matter within the body. So they're "physical" attacks as well if you interpret it that way.​


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Strat, I got a question.  Why did Obito possess Menma in the first place?  Why not just fight naruto as himself?


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## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

Menma Obito turned his head to avoid Naruto's Kunai while MS Obito would have just phased through it, so I don't think he had Kamui, and Menma never actually displayed an MS.

Also, ITT people acting like the movie was more inconsistent than the manga.

Sakura put her hands on Super Kaguya. Rock Lee threw a Kunai in between Eight Gate Gai & Jubidara's Truth Seekers speeding towards each other. Etc.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Menma Obito turned his head to avoid Naruto's Kunai while MS Obito would have just phased through it, so I don't think he had Kamui, and Menma never actually displayed an MS.



then that means base Naruto has a shunshin on par with V2 Ei since Menma Obito couldn't even mentally react to it despite naruto doing it in plain view.



Rocky said:


> Also, ITT people acting like the movie was more inconsistent than the manga.
> 
> Sakura put her hands on Super Kaguya. Rock Lee threw a Kunai in between Eight Gate Gai & Jubidara's Truth Seekers speeding towards each other. Etc.


Kaguya's attention was on Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi, she didn't even consider Sakura a threat which is probably why Sakura landed a hit on her.
Lee had to enter the 6th gate in order to do that, and he didn't have to perceive Gai, all he needed to do is perceive all the TSB speeding to one location.


base Naruto and Yang kurama flying, explain that one.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Deva Path couldn't react to a base Naruto clone being lobbed like a softball from 50 meters away (after hanging with Sage Naruto). When exhausted at the end of a fight, shit happens.​


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I've always accepted movies written by the author as reasonable evidence of the author's opinion on how characters would interact._ Because he's writing how they interact_.​


They're alternate realities, not relevant to the manga-canon. If you don't understand this I have nothing else to say on the matter. Not responding to the rest (even if I was planning to) as I'm basically adding fuel to the fire at this point by doing so.

Get back to me when you can argue content from the actual manga-canon/relevant sources.


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## Puppetry (May 28, 2015)

I'd be very surprised if Sakura could spar with Kaguya. I wouldn't bat an eye at her landing a dynamic entry on Menma.


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deva Path couldn't react to a base Naruto clone being lobbed like a softball from 50 meters away (after hanging with Sage Naruto). When exhausted at the end of a fight, shit happens.​



sure he could, deva saw the entire thing happen, he just couldn't physically react to that because of how exhausted he was (he couldn't even stand).  Menma Obito was no where near that point as he raced towards naruto without the slightest sign of mentally reacting.

Plus, Menma obito was fresh as he was using Obito's chakra as menma had been knocked out prior.

But seriously strat, I want to know your opinion as to why Obito even possessed menma in the first place instead of just fighting an exhausted base naruto.  Is that Kishi's way of telling us that base naruto > Obito?


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Deva not dodging Naruto was plot. Moments latter Nagato was expending enough chakra to RT a village.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> then that means base Naruto has a shunshin on par with V2 Ei since Menma Obito couldn't even mentally react to it despite naruto doing it in plain view.



Mentally react with what? Naruto threw a Kunai (which likely provided a minor distraction), jumped over Menma, and hit him in the back.

Where does A factor into this?



> base Naruto and Yang kurama flying, explain that one.



I don't remember that, but I can't explain it.

Nor can I explain Sakura punching Kaguya's horn off.



			
				Format said:
			
		

> They're alternate realities, not relevant to the manga-canon.



They are if created by the same author. That's what "canon" usually means.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Mentally react with what? Naruto threw a Kunai (which likely provided a minor distraction), jumped over Menma, and hit him in the back.
> 
> Where does A factor into this?


Mentally react as in notice NAruto actually moved, which menma failed to do until he had a rasengan in his back despite having the reaction-enhancing sharingan.

Ei factors into this since he's the standard for shunshins that are greater than the sharingan can react to.




Rocky said:


> I don't remember that, but I can't explain it.
> *
> Nor can I explain Sakura punching Kaguya's horn off*.



How is kaguya being distracted by the three amigos not an explanation for punching kaguya's horn off?  Just because things happen within your LoS doesn't mean you have the mental capacity to process and react to all of those things.


----------



## Turrin (May 28, 2015)

People do realize that in the Road to Ninja movie, Itachi was a totally different person right? As were everyone except Naruto, Sakura, and Obito. So why would anyone ever use feats from that movie lol.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Totally different as in completely different Battledome fighting abilities? 

Also, Obito was the same, like you said. 

And his comment + decision to flee was based on the Itachi he knew.

"You still are a bothersome guy." *warps away*


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They are if created by the same author. That's what "canon" usually means.


Not exactly, canon is the accepted source material. If we accept _everything _written by Kishimoto then basically what we have is a jumbled mess that makes no sense what so ever (I can see the jokes already).


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Mentally react as in notice NAruto actually moved, which menma failed to do until he had a rasengan in his back despite having the reaction-enhancing sharingan.
> 
> Ei factors into this since he's the standard for shunshins that are greater than the sharingan can react to.



How did Menma fail to notice Naruto moving? Even Obito knew that Minato jumped before he was pegged with Rasengan. Same with Sasuke, who realized that a had moved before the Raikage popped up behind him.

Naruto just jumped up after throwing the Kunai and tired Menma was too slow to dodge Rasengan with the added distraction. 



> Just because things happen without your LoS doesn't mean you have the mental capacity to process and react to all of those things.



Is this you saying Kaguya lacks the reflexes to swerve Sakura? Kaguya should have seen her coming, and Kaguya should probably perceive Sakura as moving in slow motion given the speed difference. 

Sakura's punch itself also should have done jack shit given how RSM Godruto did less damage to a less powerful version of Kaguya....



StickaStick said:


> If we accept everything written by Kishimoto then basically what we have is a jumbled mess that makes no sense what so ever (I can see the jokes already).



>implying the manga is not an inconsistent trainwreck.


----------



## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Sasuke with EMS became Prime Madara lvl, did he not?
> 
> so what's wrong with believing itachi could do the same (assuming EMS)
> 
> again, think. lol



1- Madara said their level is not the same.
2- Sasuke has Indra's chakra, and that type of sharingan madara has. Itachi has neither.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How did Menma fail to notice Naruto moving? Even Obito knew that Minato jumped before he was pegged with Rasengan. Same with Sasuke, who realized that a had moved before the Raikage popped up behind him.


Watch the movie, Menma doesn't mentally react, he just continues forward as he tries to attack where naruto would have been with a kunai.

Plus, Obito didn't know minato jumped before, we only see him mentally react after the rasengan is in his back.



Rocky said:


> Naruto just jumped up after throwing the Kunai and tired Menma was too slow to dodge Rasengan with the added distraction.


Menma was running on Obito's chakra, there's no 'tired menma' there's only 'tired naruto' here, and if you watch the movie, there is no sign of mental cognition on menma's part until the rasengan is in his back.




Rocky said:


> Is this you saying Kaguya lacks the reflexes to swerve Sakura? Kaguya should have seen her coming, and Kaguya should probably perceive Sakura as moving in slow motion given the speed difference.


If it's just kaguya and sakura? Obviously not, but if it's Kaguya having all her attention on naruto, sasuke and kakashi.... then yes.  Sure, Sakura probably is moving in slow motion compared to kaguya, but Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi aren't thus dealing with that inhibits her ability to react to things that she'd even perceive in slow motion.



Rocky said:


> Sakura's punch itself also should have done jack shit given how RSM Godruto did less damage to a less powerful version of Kaguya....


When did naruto do less damage?  If you're talking about his rasengan barrage, she probably nullified most of the attack by absorbing the energy considering how much damage she takes from his chakra claw attack.
If you're talking about naruto using han's power, where do we see Kaguya getting hit in the horn?


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >implying the manga is not an inconsistent trainwreck.


Irrelevant; the manga is self-contained. I mean, there's a reason after movies are released we don't see the manga adapting to them in any pertinent kind of way (_The Last_ possibly being an exception). The manga in-and-of itself being inconsistent doesn't make two wrongs a right.

Btw, for the record, what's your actual stance on this?


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Watch the movie, Menma doesn't mentally react, he just continues forward as he tries to attack where naruto would have been with a kunai.



By the time Menma stops looking at the Kunai I'm guessing Naruto was already in the air.

We can't see Menma's face to know if there is any surprise present from Naruto not being where he just was.



> Plus, Obito didn't know minato jumped before, we only see him mentally react after the rasengan is in his back.



Obito stops saying "Gotcha" when Minato _vanishes._ 

He was just too slow to reactivate Kamui I guess.



> Menma was running on Obito's chakra, there's no 'tired menma' there's only 'tired naruto' here, and if you watch the movie, there is no sign of mental cognition on menma's part until the rasengan is in his back.



Sure.



> If it's just kaguya and sakura? Obviously not, but if it's Kaguya having all her attention on naruto, sasuke and kakashi.... then yes.  Sure, Sakura probably is moving in slow motion compared to kaguya, but Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi aren't thus dealing with that inhibits her ability to react to things that she'd even perceive in slow motion.



Naruto & Sasuke weren't actively chasing Kaguya, especially given that Sasuke can't fly. As soon as she rose up, her focus should have been on swerving Sakura (who likewise cannot fly) long before the comparatively turtle-like Tsunade clone could close the distance.



> When did naruto do less damage?



When Naruto swung into her after dude harem no jutsu.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I mean, there's a reason after movies are released we don't see the manga adapting to them in any pertinent kind of way..



So, if Kishimoto was interviewed and during that interview said that Itachi would defeat Tobirama, would you disregard this because the manga makes no reference to that statement?

Strat's statement really has nothing to do with the movie, or maybe I should say that he isn't focusing on any actual feats.

It's more geared towards Kishimoto's _opinion_ of how Itachi & Obito may have interacted in the manga given that he wrote the script for this movie.



> Btw, for the record, what's your actual stance on this?



What, Obito versus Itachi? Dependant upon match conditions.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> By the time Menma stops looking at the Kunai I'm guessing Naruto was already in the air.
> 
> We can't see Menma's face to know if there is any surprise present from Naruto not being where he just was.


menma never looks at the kunai, his gaze is always forward, and his body motion continue forward as if he's trying to strike where naruto should have been.  There's no sign of him mentally reacting.



Rocky said:


> Obito stops saying "Gotcha" when Minato _vanishes._
> 
> He was just too slow to reactivate Kamui I guess.


.i don't understand what leads you to believe obito mentally reacted at all in that instance.  There's nothing like "!?" or "!" or one of those ticks like *the one above Ei's head* despite there being an intermediate scan of obito's head.  Obito's intangibility activates by thought (potentially subconscious considering he did it while knocked out and before he knew how to control it), if obito can react to it, it gets phased through, had he processed what happened he wouldn't have lost there.

He's in the middle of processing the thought that he's won when minato jams him.




Rocky said:


> Naruto & Sasuke weren't actively chasing Kaguya, especially given that Sasuke can't fly. As soon as she rose up, her focus should have been on swerving Sakura (who likewise cannot fly) long before the comparatively turtle-like Tsunade clone could close the distance.


Naruto can fly, Sasuke can teleport, kakashi could have warped either of them, then there's naruto's unpredictability and clone tactics, and the fact that she was in the middle of coming up with a strategy to deal with them.  I don't see how kaguya having to deal with all of that plus whatever blood loss she's suffering from the kamui makes it implausible for someone who she had deemed earlier as insignificant to catch her.




Rocky said:


> When Naruto swung into her after dude harem no jutsu.


He didn't hit her horn, he hit her cheek and she traveled a much further distance than she did when sakura punched her.


----------



## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

Like father, like son. 

hopefully Bolt get something.


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So, if Kishimoto was interviewed and during that interview said that Itachi would defeat Tobirama, would you disregard this because the manga makes no reference to that statement?


No, why would I?

However, that's not the same as trying to reconcile two alternate universes that not coincidentally mass-contradict each other.



> Strat's statement really has nothing to do with the movie, or maybe I should say that he isn't focusing on any actual feats.
> 
> It's more geared towards Kishimoto's _opinion_ of how Itachi & Obito may have interacted in the manga given that he wrote the script for this movie.


If you accept that interaction as canon then you have to accept _all _of it. Problem is that Strat is cherry picking one instance that happened in the movie and I doubt for one second would consider anything else relevant; and for good reason, it would make no fucking sense if we did. 



> What, Obito versus Itachi? Dependant upon match conditions.


No, I mean on whether movie content should be taken into consideration under any circumstances other than Kishi outright saying disregard the manga and accept this source material instead (as the two obviously can't co-exist with each other).

Although if you'd like to answer that question as well (assume neutral conditions) that'd be fine too as then this thread could get back on track.


----------



## T-Bag (May 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Madara said their level is not the same.
> 2- Sasuke has Indra's chakra, and that type of sharingan madara has. Itachi has neither.



hence why i said ASSUMING EMS (hypothetical). EMS is not something he can obtain because he isn't indra's incant. 

but ur missing the point regarding madara's prime/shell of former self argument


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If you accept that interaction as canon then you have to accept _all _of it. Problem is that Strat is cherry picking one instance that happened in the movie and I doubt for one second would consider anything else relevant; and for good reason, it would make no fucking sense if we did.



I disagree with this. I see no issue with him "cherry picking" instances in a movie _written by Kishimoto _and using them as supporting evidence for his argument. If Strat's goal was to "prove" that the _author_ believes the same thing he does, then he can use anything he wants to as long as it reflects Kishimoto's views, and the movie should given that he wrote the damn thing. 

I honestly don't see why continuity matters here. The Itachi & Obito in the movie-verse aren't different than their manga incarnations IIRC, so why all of a sudden should anyone believe that Kishi wrote that scene out the way he did while having a _different_ idea in mind for as to how it would go in the manga?

All you said was this:



> I think he wrote a scene that he thought fans might have wanted to see and put no real thought into it.



...and this isn't more convincing than what Strat brought up. For one, what happened there was likely _not_ what fans wanted to see (I would have preferred that they fought each other ), and the "put no thought into it" part was literally something you made up. This logic can also be taken and applied to anything within the manga as well.


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

Kishi only gave the idea, he did not write the whole thing. That applies to the Last as well.
The *only* thing Kishi wrote/will write ENTIRELY is Bolt's movie. 

So, we don't really know if that scan you're talking about (whatever it may be, I haven't read the debate) is from Kishi himself, or the movie creators.


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I disagree with this. I see no issue with him "cherry picking" instances in a movie _written by Kishimoto _and using them as supporting evidence for his argument. If Strat's goal was to "prove" that the _author_ believes the same thing he does, then he can use anything he wants to as long as it reflects Kishimoto's views, and the movie should given that he wrote the damn thing.


If you take that stance, then _anything _from _any _of the movies can be interpreted in the same fashion. There is no in-between here. Either all of the movie source material is relevant and must be taken into consideration, or none of it. I honestly don't see what's hard to understand here.



> I honestly don't see why continuity matters here. The Itachi & Obito in the movie-verse aren't different than their manga incarnations IIRC, so why all of a sudden should anyone believe that Kishi wrote that scene out the way he did while having a _different_ idea in mind for as to how it would go in the manga?


It's really doesn't matter, for the reasons stated above.

Yeah, and what Hussein said.


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## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If you take that stance, then _anything _from _any _of the movies can be interpreted in the same fashion.



Kishimoto didn't script all of the movies. 



> There is no in-between here.



Says who, you? I beg to differ. 

I have yet to see a good argument as to why Kishimoto had a _different _opinion of how Itachi & Obito would interact.

I'm certainly not going to throw the entire movie out just because some _parts_ of it may contradict with the manga.

Hell, the manga contradicts with the manga more often than the movie does. 



> It's really doesn't matter, for the reasons stated above.



Nice cop-out. ck


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto didn't script all of the movies.


Yeah, I mean the one's authored by Kishi. Thought that went without saying but whatever.



> Says who, you? I beg to differ.


This isn't up to me, it's simply commons sense. Why should Obito and Itachi's interaction have any more merit than anything else in that movie (hint: it shouldn't).



> I have yet to see a good argument as to why Kishimoto had a _different _opinion of how Itachi & Obito would interact.


Their whole interaction was forced based on some random plot. Neither Itachi nor Obito  directly confronted each other in the manga-canon or had any attention of doing so--that alone makes it OoC.



> Hell, the manga contradicts with the manga more often than the movie does.


That's not even close to true. This single movie alone takes place at the same time as shit happening in the manga; so basically, Naruto and co. are at two places at the same time doing widely different shit. 



> Nice cop-out. ck


I found this more offensive then I probably should have considering you're the one supporting cherry-picking content from a movie and expect me to argue from the stance of why that isn't sensible.


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## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> This isn't up to me, it's simply commons sense. Why should Obito and Itachi's interaction have any more merit than anything else in that movie (hint: it shouldn't).



The entire movie is _relevant_ because it was written by Kishimoto, just like that Manga & the Databooks.

Whether or not you ignore it depends on what you're arguing, and this applies to both the Manga and Databooks as well.



> Neither Itachi nor Obito  directly confronted each other in the manga-canon or had any attention of doing so...



I'm aware, thank you. 

Strat would tell you that this is because Obito wasn't strong enough to get rid of Itachi, and what Kishimoto scripted into that movie only falls in line with that view.



> That's not even close to true. This single movie alone takes place at the same time as shit happening in the manga; so basically, Naruto and co. are at two places at the same time doing widely different shit.



_"*I honestly don't see why continuity matters here.* The Itachi & Obito in the movie-verse aren't different than their manga incarnations IIRC, so why all of a sudden should anyone believe that Kishi wrote that scene out the way he did while having a different idea in mind for as to how it would go in the manga?"_



> I found this more offensive then I probably should have considering you're the one supporting cherry-picking content from a movie and expect me to argue from the stance of why that isn't sensible.



What I'm doing is no different than what we do with the manga or Databooks.


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## Ersa (May 28, 2015)

*The Hokage*
-Naruto
-Hashi
-Minato
-Itachi
-Tobi
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


*The Sannin*
-Itachi
-Orochi 
-Jiraiya
-Tsunade

*Previous Five Kage*
-Itachi
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei
-A


*Edo Kage*
-Itachi
-Mu/The French Dude
-Sandaime Raikage
-Rasa



*The Akatsuki*
-Obito 
-Pain
-Itachi
-Kisame
-Sasori/Deidara/Kakuzu/Konan
-Hidan

This is for living Itachi, Edo moves ahead of Minato and ahead of Pain.


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The entire movie is _relevant_ because it was written by Kishimoto, just like that Manga & the Databooks.
> 
> Whether or not you ignore it depends on what you're arguing, and this applies to both the Manga and Databooks as well.


The manga and DB are intended to work in concert; the movies are not. You're trying to argue that because the manga and DB occasionally contradict each other that that puts them in the same class as the movies *which work in alternate realities* and that's simply not the case. 



> I'm aware, thank you.
> 
> Strat would tell you that this is because Obito wasn't strong enough to get rid of Itachi, and what Kishimoto scripted into that movie only falls in line with that view.


Of course that's what he would tell you. He's taken one inconclusive piece of content and is trying to use it in order to bolster his case, because frankly the point being argued needs all the bolstering it can get (i.e., Obito avoided Itachi). Common sense would tell us Obito didn't attack Itachi because of the secrets Itachi held and could have divulged.



> _"*I honestly don't see why continuity matters here.* The Itachi & Obito in the movie-verse aren't different than their manga incarnations IIRC, so why all of a sudden should anyone believe that Kishi wrote that scene out the way he did while having a different idea in mind for as to how it would go in the manga?"_


You made this comment in response to a different point, so I'm not sure why you're repeating it here. The movies clearly contradict the manga more then it does itself (and by a shit tone) and that's all I was responding to here.

And I'm done here. You can't even prove that Kishi, outside of writing the plot and overseeing certain aspects of the movie, was the one behind the decision to include that specific scene into the movie or if he merely gave the sign off (_or if he even did that_), so really this mostly was a waste of time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Totally different as in completely different Battledome fighting abilities?
> 
> Also, Obito was the same, like you said.
> 
> ...



I've seen that scene. The word "still" is the key here. That is a reference to the alternate universe, aka the universe we've been reading.

Despite all those people who'r denial here(who all happen to be on the anti-Itachi front - coincidence ? ), I too think its worth noting. 

And the funny thing is, that scene is in line with the manga we know, Obito never confronted Itachi directly and had to stay away from Konoha as Itachi told him to and admitted that Itachi was a torn in his side. So there is absolutely no reason to dismiss it as filler. Its written by Kishimoto, it correlates with the canon character interaction from the manga we know.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Totally different as in completely different Battledome fighting abilities?
> 
> Also, Obito was the same, like you said.
> 
> ...


Yes because again they were totally different people. We even saw Sasori uses a giant salamander puppet that could force back one of Mema's beasts. 

As far as the Itachi vs Obito thing goes, Obito just said he was troublesome, not that Itachi would beat him, and whether Kishi wrote that part or not is unknown. So you have no point to begin with.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Strat would tell you that this is because Obito wasn't strong enough to get rid of Itachi, and what Kishimoto scripted into that movie only falls in line with that view.



Or if he was capable, he wasn't sure enough in his ability to do so without his organization or himself taking serious damage. If there was a slight gap between the two, it was in Itachi's favor IMO.

Obito dealt with Itachi being a thorn in his side for years under the guise of their deal concerning Konoha and waited his sickness out rather than have Itachi (and his his info) go rogue.

Obito was the one being cautious. Not Itachi. Obito hid in the shadows _from his own organization and allies_ where Itachi lived his entire life with enemies, gathering information.

And after Itachi's death, Obito admits to being _constantly amazed_ by Itachi. Awe from the enemy is no small thing, and Itachi felt none for Obito, calling him a pathetic shell. Hence my interpretation.​


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## Kai (May 28, 2015)

What was Obito weary of? Itachi's connection, what he knew in regards to Akatsuki and Konoha. Itachi has more past affiliations and familiarity with the strongest world powers than any other member in Akatsuki.

Did Obito ever once express fear of Itachi's power? Show me one.

Itachi had no choice but to resort to a fail-safe that could possibly defeat Obito. That already tells you who is superior. 
Obito would be dead without keeping secret(s) from Itachi? Pain would be dead without keeping his secret from Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Itachi had no choice but to resort to a fail-safe that could possibly defeat Obito. That already tells you who is superior. .



Itachi didn't "resort" to anything. The fail-safe was _in the event_ Obito knew his secrets, _and_ went back on their deal. Itachi had no concrete knowledge that Obito would do either.

Obito's the one who didn't publicly show his face in his organization for 99.99% of the time Itachi was a member. Not the other way around. Itachi wasn't the one afraid of being attacked.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> What was Obito weary of? Itachi's connection, what he knew in regards to Akatsuki and Konoha. Itachi has more past affiliations and familiarity with the strongest world powers than any other member in Akatsuki.
> 
> Did Obito ever once express fear of Itachi's power? Show me one.
> 
> ...



Itachi used the fail safe to shut him up in case he approached Sasuke. Obito even expressed it himself : * these kinds of impacts*
Itachi's main objective wasn't to kill Obito but rather protect Sasuke.

The notion that Itachi tried to kill Obito his whole life but couldn't and resorted to a cheap tactic to assasinate him is purely fanfiction.


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## T-Bag (May 28, 2015)

"if i hadn't kept a few secrets from itachi, i'd be dead right now" -Obito. Nuff said.

MS obito's powers aren't great. if he had faught itachi, itachi would figure out his secrets and kill him, konan bruised him pretty badly, minato fucked him up,kakashi had multiple chances to kill him, lol come on. itachi would have destroyed him had he known he wasn't MADARA, ONE OF HIS SECRETS. that secret kept itachi from attacking him.

MS obito is not ITACHI's level, dont be silly. he has a few tricks up his sleeve but that's about it. itachi is by far a superior ninja. thats why everyone in the manga hops on his dick

"but YOU were PERFECT". How many ninjas actually get a praise like that? you gotta sum up everything together


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

> "if i hadn't kept a few secrets from itachi, i'd be dead right now" -Obito. Nuff said.



Good thing itachi never learned those secrets then. 
Not as if that says any thing about itachi's power. If he told his secrets to Konan, he would have been killed as well. 

Thing, even tho obito did tell itachi about some, and itachi kept spying for like 10 years or so, and he still couldn't figure out those secrets, nor was he able to do anything to him throughout all of those years.



> itachi would figure out his secrets and kill him


He did not in 10 years. 



> MS obito is not ITACHI's level, dont be silly. he has a few tricks up his sleeve but that's about it. itachi is by far a superior ninja



Indeed he is not. He is stronger than itachi by far.


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## T-Bag (May 28, 2015)

always missing the point hussein lol.

the point was, obito isn't that tough. its like the saying in prison goes "if you aint tough, u gotta look tough" to prevent ur neck from getting snapped


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

the point "if itachi knows" Well, he does not. 

Also, Obito by feats is stronger than itachi. That's obvious.


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Obito had no reason to go after Itachi while he was still, for the most part, being a good employee and helping to capture the tailed-beasts and seal them. Once it became apparent Itachi was going to sacrifice himself to Sasuke then there was no point seeing as how Itachi was going to do the job himself. 

Most likely Obito could have taken care of Itachi himself but there was no need to do given the circumstanes. If he really wanted, he could have sent himself and Pain after Itachi and curb-stomped him into oblivion 

And yeah, staying in the shadows is what people in Obito's position of power and authority do. They don't rabble with the common folk down the employee chain


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Obito had no reason to go after Itachi while he was still, for the most part, being a good employee and helping to capture the tailed-beasts and seal them. Once it became apparent Itachi was going to sacrifice himself to Sasuke then there was no point seeing as how Itachi was going to do the job himself.
> 
> Most likely Obito could have taken care of Itachi himself but there was no need to do given the circumstanes. If he really wanted, he could have sent himself and Pain after Itachi and curb-stomped him into oblivion
> 
> And yeah, staying in the shadows is what people in Obito's position of power and authority do. They don't rabble with the common folk down the employee chain



people actually believe he was a spy for Konoha when he did not do a damn thing for them or help them with any info whatsoever. 

Heck, even those feats they use to why he is so smart, it's all based on spying on them for 10 years. lol
It's not like Minato, Kakashi, or Shika's level who do actually figure out those things in battles without any background on the matter. Don't know why people ignore that he was supposedly collecting the info all those years, and act all surprised when he knows something. lol


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Obito had no reason to go after Itachi while he was still, for the most part, being a good employee and helping to capture the tailed-beasts and seal them.



Other than Obito himself saying Itachi was a pain in the ass.





StickaStick said:


> Most likely Obito could have taken care of Itachi himself



His behavior doesn't indicate that, in the manga or the movie Kishi wrote.



StickaStick said:


> If he really wanted, he could have sent himself and Pain after Itachi and curb-stomped him into oblivion



Unless Itachi escaped with all that info and brought hell down on Akatsuki.



StickaStick said:


> And yeah, staying in the shadows is what people in Obito's position of power and authority do. They don't rabble with the common folk down the employee chain



People unfit for leadership, but with _inherited_ influence.


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## T-Bag (May 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the point "if itachi knows" Well, he does not.
> 
> Also, Obito by feats is stronger than itachi. That's obvious.


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

the pic does not work. 

anyway, can you tell us what are the things that itachi has better than MS Obito? 
cuz I can't think of any.


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Hussain said:


> people actually believe he was a spy for Konoha when he did not do a damn thing for them or help them with any info whatsoever.
> 
> Heck, even those feats they use to why he is so smart, it's all based on spying on them for 10 years. lol
> It's not like Minato, Kakashi, or Shika's level who do actually figure out those things in battles without any background on the matter. Don't know why people ignore that he was supposedly collecting the info all those years, and act all surprised when he knows something. lol


Yeah, things like these are often either ignored or rationalized to the high heavens. 

Obito got Itachi into thinking he was Madara by telling him so in a forest and he's a genius, when people like Minato figure out right away that Tobi = Madara is bullshit and get ignored. I don't know.



Strategoob said:


> Other than Obito himself saying Itachi was a pain in the ass.


A lot of employees are a pain in the ass but you deal with them anyway when they're furthering your cause.



> His behavior doesn't indicate that, in the manga or the movie Kishi wrote.


Based on your warped interpretations, sure. The rest of us know Obito had no reason to attack Itachi, even if he felt like it.  



> Unless Itachi escaped and then brought hell down on Akatsuki with all the information he had gathered.


Itachi wouldn't escape Obito and Pain; but I'll grant you that the mere possibility, even if minuscule, might have been enough of a deterrent since Obito and Akatsuki had so much more to lose in such a scenario than gain. 



> People too weak to lead themselves, but with _inherited_ influence.


Obito led himself straight to a ride on the Juubi train, enacting some contingencies of his own on the way, while Itachi's judgment led to mind-raping Sasuke into some kind of batshit crazy criminal, so sure.


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

explode
after all of that, and he still did not know how to deal with Obito, after 10 years. Yet, people expect him to figure
that out all of a sudden in 5 minutes.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Obito led himself straight to a ride on the Juubi train, enacting some contingencies of his own on the way, while Itachi's judgment led to mind-raping Sasuke into some kind of batshit crazy criminal, so sure.



Obito would have succeeded if not for Itachi's _second contingency_ resulting in Naruto and Bee being saved, Kabuto beign defeated, Sasuke being converted, and Orochimaru resurrected.

Obito went ahead and corrupted Sasuke with the truth, which let everything unravel as it did. Itachi wasn't aware that Obito even knew or wanted to, but he put contingencies in place _just in case_.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah, things like these are often either ignored or rationalized to the high heavens.
> 
> Obito got Itachi into thinking he was Madara by telling him so in a forest and he's a genius, when people like Minato figure out right away that Tobi = Madara is bullshit and get ignored. I don't know.



Minato dismissed his own thought that Tobi= Madara by basically repeating what everybody else knew about the matter. That Madara was dead.
He also didn't realize that the kid he was beating up was his own student.
What a fucking genius  

I don't see any reason why Itachi's intelligence is diminished by believing in Tobi's lie about his identity. He was basically a guy who had access to all the knowledge and resources Madara once had. He knew exclusive details about Madara and Uchiha, things only someone from that era could knew. In a supernatural world where shinobi from Hashirama's period were walking around(kakuzu), it isn't farfetched to believe that someone of Madara's caliber could have survived and kept living till their time.

It took Obito like 5 minutes to realize Danzo was using Izanagi(a jutsu he knew about and used) for fuck sakes. As an outside observer who did nothing but watch the fight. from the side lines


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato dismissed his own thought that Tobi= Madara by basically repeating what everybody else knew about the matter. That Madara was dead.
> He also didn't realize that the kid he was beating up was his own student.
> What a fucking genius
> 
> ...


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't see any reason why Itachi's intelligence is diminished by believing in Tobi's lie about his identity. He was basically a guy who had access to all the knowledge and resources Madara once had. He knew exclusive details about Madara and Uchiha, things only someone from that era could knew. In a supernatural world where shinobi from Hashirama's period were walking around (Kakuzu), it isn't farfetched to believe that someone of Madara's caliber could have survived and kept living till their time.



Minato didn't know immortals like Kakuzu/Zetsu/Orochimaru existed. 

Unlike Itachi.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It took Obito like 5 minutes to realize Danzo was using Izanagi(a jutsu he knew about and used) for fuck sakes. As an outside observer who did nothing but watch the fight. from the side lines



That is funny.


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

What makes you think he did not know? 
Onoki was using the Akatsuki in the 3rd War, no? 

you know, the same War that Minato made everyone piss on themselves upon seeing him.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Because he ruled out Obito being Madara because he assumed Madara was too old to still be alive. If he had knowledge of _all_ the immortality jutsu in Akatsuki, he wouldn't have done that.​


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## Trojan (May 28, 2015)

Except he was right, and Madara was indeed dead. 

Also, Kakuzu's ability is not unique to him. It's an ability that his village has.
The same with Hidan and his people. So, even if he did not know those 2 specifically, it's not like
if they are the only ones who has it.


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Obito would have succeeded if not for Itachi's _second contingency_ resulting in Naruto and Bee being saved, Kabuto beign defeated, Sasuke being converted, and Orochimaru resurrected.​



The transparent insistence on making Itachi the pivotal piece while ignoring the context, subsequent events, and circumstances surrounding what happened is not convincing me, and I doubt anyone else who isn't already in the tank for the pro-Itachi position, so please save it. 

As a bonus:





> Obito went ahead and corrupted Sasuke with the truth, which let everything unravel as it did. Itachi wasn't aware that Obito even knew or wanted to, but he put contingencies in place _just in case_.


Manga (and Itachi) disagree with this assessment:
5


@Grimmjow 

Believing a random dude in the forest in Madara Uchiha b/c they tell you so > needing 5-min to analyze a techique you probably haven't ever seen used in person before


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The transparent insistence on making Itachi the pivotal piece



I merely responded to you with a fact: without that contingency in place, Naruto and Bee would be dead, Kabuto would be unchecked, and Sasuke would continue being manipulated.

In the end, Itachi's contingency was critical. _Pivotal?_ I didn't say that. Maybe. It went from Naruto getting soul-ripped to Orochimaru summoning Edo Hokage allies. But critical? _Definitely._​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> @Grimmjow
> 
> Believing a random dude in the forest in Madara Uchiha b/c they tell you so > needing 5-min to analyze a techique you probably haven't ever seen used in person before



He is not a random dude though. He is a dude who has access to Madara's resources and knowledge. And by the looks of their conversation Itachi observed him for a while and deduced his motives. 

Tobi taking his sweet time to figure out Izanagi is almost as worse as Kakashi watching Obito do his shit for like hours(in 3 seperate occasions) and not having a klue until that kunai moment. 

Oh man


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I merely responded to you with a fact: without that contingency in place, Naruto and Bee would be dead, Kabuto would be unchecked, and Sasuke would continue being manipulated. Compare that to what Obito achieve at the top of his hierarchy.
> 
> In the end, Itachi's contingency was critical. _Pivotal?_ I didn't say that. Maybe. But critical? Definitely.​


Yes, that would make him one of many, and behind guys like Minato and Jiriaya in terms of importance. Compare this to what Obito achieved at the top of his hierarchy.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He is not a random dude though. He is a dude who has access to Madara's resources and knowledge. And by the looks of their conversation Itachi observed him for a while and deduced his motives.
> 
> Tobi taking his sweet time to figure out Izanagi is almost as worse as Kakashi watching Obito do his shit for like hours(in 3 seperate occasions) and not having a klue until that kunai moment.
> 
> Oh man


Itachi doesn't get a pass for being so gullible. Minato assessed the Masked-Mans capabilities and despite in his own mind feeling Madara Uchiha was the only one capable of such feats, dismissed the possibility anyway. Itachi in the face of such evidence could have been more diligent and done the same thing. He didn't.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi doesn't get a pass for being so gullible. Minato assessed the Masked-Mans capabilities and despite in his own mind feeling Madara Uchiha was the only one capable of such feats, dismissed the possibility anyway. Itachi in the face of such evidence could have been more diligent and done the same thing.



You'r aware of the fact that the whole world believed that Madara was dead right ? And the only reason why Minato dismissed the thought is because he believed what everone else believed right ? And Tobi didn't tell Minato he was Madara in the first place.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi doesn't get a pass for being so gullible.



He wasn't gullible. Hence his contingency plans in the event he was betrayed by "Madara." 

Believing the person with all Madara's knowledge and resources, in a group containing three other immortals, is Madara, isn't farfetched. Assuming it was true had no negative impact on Itachi.

Minato waved it off because he believed it was impossible a ninja could live that long. His mind wasn't open to the possibility simply because he didn't have the knowledge Itachi did.​


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You'r aware of the fact that the whole world believed that Madara was dead right ? And the only reason why Minato dismissed the thought is because he believed what everone else believed right ? And Tobi didn't tell Minato he was Madara in the first place.


What's your point. Both Itachi and Minato were presented with evidence to support the idea that Masked-Man = Madara. One dismissed; the other bought in. Anything else is an excuse.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> What's your point. Both Itachi and Minato were presented with evidence to support the idea that Masked-Man = Madara. One dismissed; the other bought in. Anything else is an excuse.



Re-read my post please. Because I can't make my point any more clear than that.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

I don't understand how this is complicated.

A. Minato discounted the possibility of an immortal Madara.

B. Itachi accounted for the possibility of an immortal Madara.

A. Minato didn't know about immortality ninjutsu.

B. Itachi knew about immortality ninjutsu. (Kakuzu, Orochimaru.)

It didn't affect how either handled the situation.​


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## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Itachi didn't know about Oro's and Kakazu's situations when he accepted the Masked-Man as Madara. To suggest otherwise would be unsubstantiated fan-fiction.

After spending years with the Akatsuki he believed Tobi to be Madara til the moment he died and afterwards. There are no excuses for Itachi here.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi didn't know about Oro's and Kakazu's situations when he accepted the Masked-Man as Madara. To suggest otherwise would be unsubstantiated fan-fiction.



Constant "fanfiction" comments get old when you're consistently wrong.

A. Itachi defeated Orochimaru 7 years prior to part I.

B. Itachi found/noticed Obito during this time.

C. Hiruzen tried peace talks with Uchiha for a time.

D. Itachi and Obito killed the Uchiha 4 years prior to part I.

ANBU Itachi was in Akatsuki for Hiruzen before fleeing the village.

This is how he discovered Obito's existence.

But feel free to combo "herpa lerpa fanfiction" with "herpa timeline mistake."


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2015)

Using single panels and excluding all the others that shatter the point you'd make solely on that one panel doesn't help us believe that Itachi was above MS Obito. The dude himself said he needed the EMS to surpass "Madara" in spite of him being "weakened". The actions show this by Itachi never daring to take on Obito head on.


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Strat, that's not what I mean. It was your assertion that Itachi took Oro's and Kakazu's "abilities" into consideration in his decision to accept Tobi as Madara. There is no proof of such a thing. It's something you'd like to believe because then it might bolster your point. Show me where it's stated or implied that Itachi was aware of Oro's and Kakazu's abilities at that point and that he took them into consideration.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Show me where it's stated or implied that Itachi was aware of Oro's and Kakazu's abilities at that point and that he took them into consideration.



I did. His encounter with Orochimaru attempting to take his body predates bargaining with Obito. It would make sense for him to be in Akatsuki before discovering their shadow leader.

This is pointless. Even if he knew nothing, having an open mind to immortality jutsu, unlike Minato, is a positive given that they exist.​


----------



## StickaStick (May 28, 2015)

Was Itachi aware that Oro was trying to take his body; can't find the chapter off the top of my head to see whether Oro indicated so or not 

Regardless, I think you're doing Itachi an injustice if the idea is that Itachi and his encounter with Oro was used that in any kind of way to determine whether to believe Tobi = Madara. Furthermore, the jumps that have to be made to reach such a conclusion are too much and not substantiated at all. The fact is that there is zero proof that Itachi took anything other then what Tobi told him into consideration, and we should leave it at that.


----------



## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Constant "fanfiction" comments get old when you're consistently wrong.
> 
> A. Itachi defeated Orochimaru 7 years prior to part I.
> 
> ...



except the time got reteconned. Itachi defeated Oro 7 years prior to the* 4th War*. So, 3 or 2 years prior to part 1.


as you can see, the little box there shows that their encounter was 7 years ago (from the War Arc time)


> Around 7 Years Ago: Confrontation with Orochimaru, targeting the Sharingan…!! Turning the tables on Orochimaru’s attack aiming for the Sharingan. Orochimaru withdrew from Akatsuki for that chance.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 29, 2015)

Or maybe Obito simply showed more Madara-worthy stuff to Itachi. Than to Minato. Indepth Uchiha history/knowledge for example. Someone who can infiltrate Konoha, rip Kyubi from its Jin, battle Hokage, wreck shit, escape basically unscathed and who knows Uchiha's ancient history+hidden knowledge. Plus Itachi knowing about stuff like Izanagi being a plausible way to survive VotE battle. Minato also almost instantly thought about Masked Man being Madara but he simply wasn't sure. And imo - Itachi buying into Madara act isn't as bad as Minato not realizing it was Obito behind that mask. While having knowledge, sensing and supposedly top tier intellect. Obito himself bashed him because of that.


----------



## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

lol, who said Madara and uchiha history is hiding knowledge when everyone and their mothers know about that?



> Itachi buying into Madara act isn't as bad as Minato not realizing it was Obito behind that mask. While having knowledge, sensing and supposedly top tier intellect. Obito himself bashed him because of that.



Of course. Itachi being with the guy for 10 years is okey and everything. However, it so bad that Minato did not know that Obito (Behind a mask) who had Hashiram's cells in him, and his chakra changed, and awakened the MS is obito, whom fighting style is completely different. Because sensing makes you know that obviously just like how Karin recognise Kabuto as well. That's obvious.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 29, 2015)

Sensing would have allowed to detect that half of his body is made from a different substance. One of his eye is missing. That's quite a big hint. At least another possibility to consider. Imagine if Itachi had Minato's prior knowledge on Obito... 

As for Kabuto... He had _nine_ additional chakras in him. With Senjutsu on top. Wasn't Tobirama able to sense and recognize Madara just fine? Madara with the same original+Hashirama's chakra? I guess he is simply a vastly superior sensor...


----------



## Sans (May 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> _*The Sannin*_
> 
> 1. Orochimaru
> *2. Itachi*
> ...



WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

Edo Tensei, Kom.


----------



## Sans (May 29, 2015)

But it's Strategos.


----------



## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Sensing would have allowed to detect that half of his body is made from a different substance. One of his eye is missing. That's quite a big hint. At least another possibility to consider. Imagine if Itachi had Minato's prior knowledge on Obito...
> 
> As for Kabuto... He had _nine_ additional chakras in him. With Senjutsu on top. Wasn't Tobirama able to sense Madara just fine? Madara with the same original+Hashirama's chakra?



Except the change of his personality, and the awakening of the MS makes a different.  
you can re-read the Kage's arc and Karin comments about Sasuke's chakra. 

- yeah, because Minato was obviously able to see his eyes, or that's obito is the only one who could possibly lose an eye.  If that was the case, then Kakashi would have known him especially with the connection between their eyes, and he can actually see his chakra. lol

Needless to say, Obito has another eye under his mask anyway like he did against Konan. 

- Itachi lived with Obito more than Minato ever did, and he still couldn't do or know anything
even tho Obito was giving some of his secrets to him.  

- Yeah, after Oro saying Madara got revived and fighting in the war. I can't see how anyone would not know when they were directly giving the info. lol


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## Alex Payne (May 29, 2015)

Even Strategos can't argue against Orochimaru's genius.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except the change of his personality, and the awakening of the MS makes a different.
> you can re-read the Kage's arc and Karin comments about Sasuke's chakra.


 Still doesn't explain why Minato wouldn't able to detect unusual body structure and connect the dots. 



Hussain said:


> - yeah, because Minato was obviously able to see his eyes, or that's obito is the only one who could possibly lose an eye.  If that was the case, then Kakashi would have known him especially with
> the connection between their eyes, and he can actually see his chakra. lol


 Sensing allows to "see" the real body. And Obito had just one eyehole in his mask. As for Kakashi... He was able to use Sharingan only after Obito's body was buried by rocks. So he never properly saw Obito's original chakra. A quick glance at best. Sensor Minato had years.



Hussain said:


> - Itachi lived with Obito more than Minato ever dead, and he still couldn't do or know anything
> even tho Obito was giving some of his secrets to him.


 Itachi didn't know that there was a missing Uchiha with one eye. Lacking half his original body. Nor does he know Obito's original chakra signature. 



Hussain said:


> - Yeah, after Oro saying Madara got revived and fighting in the war. I can't see how anyone would not know when they were directly giving the info. lol


 Sorry to disappoint. But Tobirama likes to recheck everything.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

> [=Alex Payne;53691112]Still doesn't explain why Minato wouldn't able to detect unusual body structure and connect the dots.


I'll go ahead an assume you mean in term of chakra? That wouldn't still make any different. Obito has half of his body changed with Hashirama's cells (which Minato never known how his chakra look like/or feel like), and Obito's own chakra was changed. What dots are there for him to connect and link to Obito exactly who never had those chakra before, nor was he an asshole with those abilities?



> Sensing allows to "see" the real body. And Obito had just one eyehole in his mask. As for Kakashi... He was able to use Sharingan only after Obito's body was buried by rocks. So he never properly saw Obito's original chakra. A quick glance at best. Sensor Minato had years.


It's to sense. , but as I explained above. 
So, Kakashi who was right next to him, and there is a direct connection between their eyes (that they can see what the other can see) is excused, but Minato who never did is not?  

We don't really know how long he was with them, so I have no idea from where you brought the years thing. Also, we know when the sharingan activates a unique chakra appears as Tobirama explained. Obito never had the sharingan next to Minato.  


> Itachi didn't know that there was a missing Uchiha with one eye. Lacking half his original body. Nor does he know Obito's original chakra signature.


Yet he knows that there is a uchiha who called Obito, and the same guy who gave his eye to Kakashi. Since itachi saw Kakashi's eye, and Obito has the exact same eye with the exact same chakra, yeah, he was dense enough to not connect the dots. Even Zetsu criticised him for being dense.  

explode
So yeah
1- itachi had MUCH more time, and he failed even after life to know.
2- obito was sharing some of his secrets with him.
3- itachi saw the chakra in Kakashi's eyes, and obito's eyes, and never got that they were the same.


> Sorry to disappoint. But Tobirama likes to recheck everything.



So? I did not deny that he did sense the chakra, but Oro told his flat out it's "Madara" 
Also, Tobirama did live during Madara's time, and so him having the MS and EMS, and his ill intension. In addition, all what Madara has is a bite of a flesh from Hashirama's body.

That's nothing compared to having half of his body changed, and his chakra because of the change in personality and the sharingan/MS new type of chakra.  

Much less having to worry about everything else going on at the time. For example, Tobirama never noticed Hashirama's cells in Oro until Oro putted him in his place.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

The common folk on the street also thought Madara was dead. they'd also dismiss the thought about Tobi being Madara the same way Minato did. "Get out of here Madara is dead." Duuuh 

Minato = Common folk.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

actually they did not. 
they thought he was madara when Obito went to the Kage's meeting and declared the war. If you think about it, even being common folk is really better than being below them, and think he was alive.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> actually they did not.
> they thought he was madara when Obito when to the Kage's meeting and declared the war. If you think about it, even being common folk is really better than being below them, and think he was alive.



*portrayed to be lethal to people as powerful as Pain*
"Its a shock to hear Madara still lives." 
Madara being dead is common knowledge.

So again, Minato's logic of dismissing Madara being alive is basically repeating what everybody else knew, that Madara was dead. 

And we know for sure that Itachi is smarter than common folk, so him believing in Tobi being Madara doesn't have anything to do with his intelligence. I might actually say that dismissing the thought simply based on knowledge everybody had is  the opposite of smart. Minato can't t hink outside the box.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

So itachi is smarter than normal folks by lacking common sense and saying retarded thing?  

Why would he need to do so, when it's the correct thing, and madara was indeed dead by that point? 
thinking outside the box is something, and being wrong is something else.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 29, 2015)

Hussein's just mad that Itachi has a more open mind than Minato.


----------



## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

I am mad because itachi is wrong, and Minato is right? 
you itachi's fans never fail to amuse without your endless supply of excuses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So itachi is smarter than normal folks by lacking common sense and saying retarded thing?
> 
> Why would he need to do so, when it's the correct thing, and madara was indeed dead by that point?
> thinking outside the box is something, and being wrong is something else.



Its not "lacking common sense" though. The thing is, Madara lived alot longer than what people had expected him to. Like when Minato thought Madara died @ VOTE, he was actually wrong. Madara basically rescued the student Minato couldn't rescue. He trained that student, manipulated him and turned him against Minato, and Minato thought Madara died @ VOTE


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## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

Scan that Minato mentioning Madara dying at VOTE please?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Scan that Minato mentioning Madara dying at VOTE please?



Thats a historical fact.

Scans that Minato knew Madara survived Vote, and was living underground and saved Obito and trained him ?


Minato.. what a genius saying Madara was dead 


edit : 

Link removed
"he is long dead."

Proof that Minato didn't know Madara was alive until recently.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

What do you consider as long and recent, and what does he consider as such? 
those are objective things. 

I consider even 1 hour as a long thing if I am waiting for something I want, and so on. When madara died, it was several months till the attack, as obito kept going on to Nagato and the others, and forming the Akatsuki ...etc. 

Long story short, he said he is dead. Never said when or where. 
(technically he died at the VOTE anyway, and then canceled that)

U R just reaching at this point Grimm.


----------



## StickaStick (May 29, 2015)

Itachi was gullible, that's the only real way to put. Met some random dude in a forest and believed he was Madara Uchiha because he told him so. And furthermore had _years _of spying on the Akatsuki and doing his own due diligence gathering intel and whatnot to change his mind and yet he still believed Tobi = Madara into his grave and even afterwards. No excuses.

Give Minato credit for dismissing the idea off hand. It's called being sensible and not easily persuaded, despite the fact that he was presented with a scenario that could easily have fooled anyone into thinking the Masked-Man was Madara.

As if Tobi telling Minato he was Madara and presenting him with the same information as he did Itachi would have changed anything. Minato considered the possibility that only Madara to his knowledge could have pulled off the Kyuubi attack and dismissed it anyway; additional informational likely would not have made a difference.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 29, 2015)

Itachi said he needed EMS to surpass "Madara" who was a "shell of his former self". The actions show that Itachi never had the guts to go for "Madara" himself and he had to use a Fuuinjutsu to surprise attack "Madara".

This doesn't sound like Itachi was above "Madara". Guess what: "Madara" = MS Obito.

Also the fact Minato was more willing to fight "Madara" head on suggests Minato is securely above Itachi. Not to mention when (SM) Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya (Itachi's superior and equal, respectively) at the same time (MS) Sasuke surpassed Itachi, Naruto was considered to be stronger than Sasuke... meaning in the eyes of the manga Minato>Itachi, though that should be obvious.

Unlike Itachi who believed a stranger in the woods, Minato actually doubted that "Madara" was the guy he was fighting. That probably says a lot about their intelligence. 
Lets not even get into Itachi's chakra levels being comparable to most of the women and children of the manga as per the databook.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What do you consider as long and recent, and what does he consider as such?
> those are objective things.
> 
> I consider even 1 hour as a long thing if I am waiting for something I want, and so on. When madara died, it was several months till the attack, as obito kept going on to Nagato and the others, and forming the Akatsuki ...etc.
> ...



You'r claiming that Minato actually knew Madara survived VOTE and died in that cave(with no witnesses around) and I'm the one reaching ? 



Ok buddy whatever you say 




StickaStick said:


> Itachi was gullible, that's the only real way to put. Met some random dude in a forest and believed he was Madara Uchiha because he told him so. And furthermore had _years _of spying on the Akatsuki and doing his own due diligence gathering intel and whatnot to change his mind and yet he still believed Tobi = Madara into his grave and even afterwards. No excuses.
> 
> Give Minato credit for dismissing the idea off hand. It's called being sensible and not easily persuaded, despite the fact that he was presented with a scenario that could easily have fooled anyone into thinking the Masked-Man was Madara.
> 
> As if Tobi telling Minato he was Madara and presenting him with the same information as he did Itachi would have changed anything. Minato considered the possibility that only Madara to his knowledge could have pulled off the Kyuubi attack and dismissed it anyway; additional informational likely would not have made a difference.



Tobi didn't try to persuade him. He didn't even mention who he was. 

And Minato dismissed the thought because like everyone else he read a history book.

Itachi knew things common folk didn't. Apparently, Minato also didn't.


----------



## StickaStick (May 29, 2015)

How would Tobi having told Minato he was Madara and even presenting him with the same information as he did Itachi make a difference? Minato was already presented with a situation in which he felt _only _Madara could have pulled it off and didn't buy it anyway. 

At the end of the day this whole thing between Minato and Itachi and whether they accepted Tobi as Madara is one silly pissing contest. Both are clearly at the top of ladders in terms of genius and intelligence.

But if we're going to finely analyze this outside of how Kishi intended is to be, then the only reasonable conclusion is Itachi fucked up here. Even in the face of all he was presented, Itachi should have been more suspicious and not so easily persuaded. But Itachi isn't perfect (no character is) and being led on like this was one of his mistakes.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> How would Tobi having told Minato he was Madara and even presenting him with the same information as he did Itachi make a difference? Minato was already presented with a situation in which he felt _only _Madara could have pulled it off and didn't buy it anyway. .



What ? 
How do you know Obito didn't present any other exlusive information to Itachi to convince him that he was Madara ?

@ First, Nagato, Yahiko and konan also didn't buy that he was Madara. Itachi and Obito didn't talk about his identity in their first encounter either.



StickaStick said:


> But if we're going to finely analyze this outside of how Kishi intended is to be, then the only reasonable conclusion is Itachi fucked up here. Even in the face of all he was presented, Itachi *should have been more suspicious and not so easily persuaded.* But Itachi isn't perfect (no character is) and being led on like this was one of his mistakes.


Do you have any evidence for the bold ?


----------



## StickaStick (May 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What ?
> How do you know Obito didn't present any other exlusive information to Itachi to convince him that he was Madara ?


Like what? Itachi actually told us what he knew about Madara, some of it things only Mads could have know, which was mostly backstory details IIRC. If you want to assert that Itachi was told something extra it's on you to provide the proof.

And again, what difference does it make. In Minato's scenario it would actually be harder to resist the the belief that Masked-Man = Madara then in Itachi's, because in Minato's scenario he was actually shown what Tobi was capable of (_only Madara could pull this off_) and still dismissed it.



> @ First, Nagato, Yahiko and konan also didn't buy that he was Madara. Itachi and Obito didn't talk about his identity in their first encounter either.


And, so what?



> Do you have any evidence for the bold ?


What, evidence that he should have been more suspicious? How about the fact that he clearly believed Tobi = Madara and gave no indication through author portrayal to have questioned it at all 

Not even after he was brought back as an ET and it had become more apparent then ever to the readers of the possibility that Tobi wasn't Madara did Kishi attempt to retcon Itachi's level of suspicion.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Like what? Itachi actually told us what he knew about Madara, some of it things only Mads could have know, which was mostly backstory details IIRC. If you want to assert that Itachi was told something extra it's on you to provide the proof.
> 
> And again, what difference does it make. In Minato's scenario it would actually be harder to resist the the belief that Masked-Man = Madara then in Itachi's, because in Minato's scenario he was actually shown what Tobi was capable of (_only Madara could pull this off_) and still dismissed it.
> 
> ...



Obito and Itachi's relationship extended beyond that 1 panel we saw them meeting in the forest. And they didn't talk about Madara @ that point. So yes, it is pretty clear that whatever made Itachi believe Obito was Madara, wasn't just seeing him going in and out of Konoha underected and reading the tablet.

You'r assuming that Itachi wasn't *suspicious* and he was* easily *persuaded. I am just wondering how you came to that conclusion. If you have manga evidence, please present em. If not, keep that fanfiction out of BD.


----------



## Ryuzaki (May 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You'r claiming that Minato actually knew Madara survived VOTE and died in that cave(with no witnesses around) and I'm the one reaching ?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok buddy whatever you say


Didn't Minato confirm in the same chapter that Madara was dead?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Met some random dude in a forest and believed he was Madara Uchiha because he told him so.



You have no evidence that Itachi believed him then and there, and that it wasn't a conclusion drawn down the line. Given the copious hype of Itachi's intellect, you're making a bad assumption.

We already saw how little Itachi trusted "Madara" to live up to his end of the bargain, which is the opposite of gullible.​


----------



## WT (May 29, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.
> 
> ...



See above in quotation marks


----------



## StickaStick (May 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito and Itachi's relationship extended beyond that 1 panel we saw them meeting in the forest. And they didn't talk about Madara @ that point. So yes, it is pretty clear that whatever made Itachi believe Obito was Madara, wasn't just seeing him going in and out of Konoha underected and reading the tablet.


All things I never denied

In fact, I mentioned how Itachi was given details that only Mads could have known of that would have convinced him. So I don't know what you're on about here.



> You'r assuming that Itachi wasn't *suspicious* and he was* easily *persuaded. I am just wondering how you came to that conclusion. If you have manga evidence, please present em. If not, keep that fanfiction out of BD.


You're either trolling or don't get how burden of proof works here.

Does the manga show Itachi being suspicious? No, in fact Itachi never once through author portrayal or elsewhere gives a _single hint_ that he considered Tobi to be anyone other than Madara. 

As far as we know Itachi accepted Tobi as who he claimed to be, with some persuasion ofc. We don't get to fill in fan-fiction explanations that don't actually exist or are even hinted to at all. 

Now, if the position is that Itachi _was _suspicious despite evidence to the contrary then it needs to be backed up with proof.



Strategoob said:


> You have no evidence that Itachi believed him then and there, and that it wasn't a conclusion drawn down the line.​



I don't believe I suggested that was the case; although I can see based on the sentence structure how that could be interpreted. 



> We already saw how little Itachi trusted "Madara" to live up to his end of the bargain, which is the opposite of gullible.


My inference was that Itachi was gullible in the instance of accepting Tobi's idenity as Madara, not that he was so by nature.


----------



## IchLiebe (May 29, 2015)

Edo Itachi still referred to Tobi as Madara, clearly he was very suspicious and didn't believe it was really Madara...fucking itachifans.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I don't believe I suggested that was the case; although I can see based on the sentence structure how that could be interpreted.
> 
> 
> My inference was that Itachi was gullible in the instance of accepting Tobi's idenity as Madara, not that he was so by nature.



If you agree that he's not gullible by nature, which his multiple contingency plans born from mistrust indicate, then you ought to agree that he would most likely would be skeptical of a random masked man in a forest claiming to be Madara.

On the other hand, because we know that the masked man had _all_ of Madara's knowledge and was the carrier of his will, Itachi assuming Obito to be a "shell" of the past Madara is a perfectly reasonable conclusion that didn't affect his judgment.​


----------



## ueharakk (May 30, 2015)

@ kyu brother that girl in your sig is in desperate need of a sports bra.

anyways, my list:



_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
*- Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_


-Jiraiya*/Itachi*
-Orochimaru (assumed no edo)
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_


*- Itachi*
-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_


*- Itachi*
- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
*- Itachi*
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

^ Tbh if she had one she probably wouldn't make Kyu's sig.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2015)

:rofl :rofl :rofl


----------



## StickaStick (May 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If you agree that he's not gullible by nature, which his multiple contingency plans born from mistrust indicate, *then you ought to agree* that he would most likely would be skeptical of a random masked man in a forest claiming to be Madara.
> 
> On the other hand, because we know that the masked man had _all_ of Madara's knowledge and was the carrier of his will, Itachi assuming Obito to be a "shell" of the past Madara is a perfectly reasonable conclusion that didn't affect his judgment.​


Yeah, no. I think I've made by position pretty clear about this having gone over it several times in my last few posts. Suffice to say we're spinning our wheels at this point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You're either trolling or don't get how burden of proof works here.


Given your response I am pretty sure I know better than you do.



> Does the manga show Itachi being suspicious? No, in fact Itachi never once through author portrayal or elsewhere gives a _single hint_ that he considered Tobi to be anyone other than Madara.



We've only seen just one panel of them interracting, which didn't involve anything about Tobi's identity.
How is it that you know so much about it and no one else don't ?



> As far as we know Itachi accepted Tobi as who he claimed to be, with some persuasion ofc. We don't get to fill in fan-fiction explanations that don't actually exist or are even hinted to at all.


But you'r allowed to fill in and claim that Itachi was easily persuaded and wasn't suspicious ? 
@ This point I am pretty sure you absolutely have no idea what the fuck you are talking about 




> Now, if the position is that Itachi _was _suspicious despite evidence to the contrary then it needs to be backed up with proof.



The point is, we absolutely have no idea what went between these 2 characters.
We didn't see them interract, nor we've seen Itachi make any comments on the matter.

Your argument is basically "we didn't see Itachi being suspicious, we also didn't see him get persuaded with trouble, which means he wasn't suspicious and he was persuaded easily." 

Absence of evidence is not evidence, that is debating 101.


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## StickaStick (May 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We've only seen just one panel of them interracting, which didn't involve anything about Tobi's identity.
> How is it that you know so much about it and no one else don't ?
> .


How does this even begin to address what you quoted? The rest of your post pretty much falls in line. So yeah, benefit of the doubt, you're trolling


----------



## Kyu (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ^ Tbh if she had one she probably wouldn't make Kyu's sig.



You damn right.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> How does this even begin to address what you quoted? The rest of your post pretty much falls in line. So yeah, benefit of the doubt, you're trolling



I think you should  take a break from writing fanfiction and focus on the actual fiction then we can have a proper debate.


----------



## Phonas (May 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> 1. Naruto
> 2. Hashirama
> ...



Itachi destroys Orochimaru w/e Edos. This was confirmed when the former said he can reverse-control Edo Tensei by maniuplating SM Kabuto via Tsukuyomi to do Itachi's bidding (at which point, Kabuto had to cover his ocular entities with his hoodie and ultimately blinded himself) and actually did after Izanami was cast.


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## Kyu (Jun 1, 2015)

Suppose I'll post mine:

_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato~*Itachi*
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_


*-Itachi*
-Orochimaru~Jiraiya
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_


*-Itachi*
-Ei~Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_


*-Itachi*
-Third Raikage
-Mu~Gengetsu
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Pein
*-Itachi*
-Obito (MS)
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

Phonas said:


> Itachi destroys Orochimaru w/e Edos. This was confirmed when the former said he can reverse-control Edo Tensei by maniuplating SM Kabuto via Tsukuyomi to do Itachi's bidding (at which point, Kabuto had to cover his ocular entities with his hoodie and ultimately blinded himself) and actually did after Izanami was cast.



You do know that Kabuto did not use any ET against him, right? 
and even more Kabuto trashed itachi had it not been for Sasuke's saving him. 

Also, @Kyu
I thought it was interesting that you putted Tobirama below Minato and lolitachi, even though
you think Minato is stronger by a hair (one other words not stronger at all ). Or is that such a goddamn long hair you meant?


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## ARGUS (Jun 1, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi said he needed EMS to surpass "Madara" who was a "shell of his former self". The actions show that Itachi never had the guts to go for "Madara" himself and he had to use a Fuuinjutsu to surprise attack "Madara".
> 
> This doesn't sound like Itachi was above "Madara". Guess what: "Madara" = MS Obito.


Ok 



> *Also the fact Minato was more willing to fight "Madara" head on suggests Minato is securely above Itachi*


Terrible logic because  sakura was more than willing to kill MS sasuke, whilst SM naruto was reluctant to do such thing, 
does that mean that Sakura > SM naruto? i hope not 



> . Not to mention when (SM) Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya (Itachi's superior and equal, respectively)


SM naruto surpassed them in SM usage, 
in a 1v1 combat, Minato would beat him mid diff at the very most 
he is superior to Jiraiya though, 



> at the same time (MS) Sasuke surpassed Itachi,


Never once was this stated, 
hell danzo alone commented on how Itachi is well above sasuke, 

Sasuke displayed a good 1 second of V4 susanoo and couldnt even maintain it, 
sick itachi maintained V4 susanoo, for a good amount of time and used it to clown hydra no diff, as well as use the ethereal weapons 
he is much faster than sasuke, has stronger susanoo (v4 > V3) and has jutsus like izanami that are KO for sasuke 




> Naruto was considered to be stronger than Sasuke... meaning in the eyes of the manga Minato>Itachi, though that should be obvious.


While i agree that Minato is above Living Itachi, 
your reasoning makes no sense, 
you claim that MS sasuke is above itachi based on no proof, and claim that SM naruto hhas surpassed minato based on a mere statement by pa 
because what you are saying can be said in reverse, since kakashi compared BM naruto to Base Minato, 
now dooes that mean that they are on par with each other? i hope not 

hence why we look at feats, and portrayal 
and through both of them, the golden boys are above SM naruot and MS Sasuke 



> Unlike Itachi who believed a stranger in the woods, Minato actually doubted that "Madara" was the guy he was fighting. That probably says a lot about their intelligence.


Yet the man still concluded that he was madara, and gave his life into sealing the kyuubi within naruto in hopes that he takes out this  ''madara'' in the future by harnessing thhe bijuus power, 

when it comes to intelligence there is no doubt that itachi is smarter, 



> Lets not even get into Itachi's chakra levels being comparable to most of the women and children of the manga as per the databook.


i sense a strong feeling of hatred


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## Kyu (Jun 1, 2015)

Perhaps I could move Tobirama up a spot since the gap between him and Minato is small, albeit it's still a gap. Meh, might edit.


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## StickaStick (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think you should  take a break from writing fanfiction and focus on the actual fiction then we can have a proper debate.


Show me a *single *piece of evidence suggesting Itachi was ever suspicious of Tobi's true identity. My proof that he wasn't was what Kishi actually showed us, or rather didn't show us; i.e.; Itachi showing suspicion.

It's your assertion that we was despite facts to the contrary--you need to back it up, which to this point despite numerous back-and-forth already you have failed to come even close to doing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Terrible logic because  sakura was more than willing to kill MS sasuke, whilst SM naruto was reluctant to do such thing,
> does that mean that Sakura > SM naruto? i hope not



Differences. Sakura had emotional reasons, she never thought she could take Sasuke because she had the skills. 
SM Naruto wasn't going to kill MS Sasuke due to their bond.

Tobi was a legit threat, Itachi and Minato both knew it'd be better if he was taken out. Evidently only the latter had the ability to fight him as the former resorted to a MS sneak attack.



> SM naruto surpassed them in SM usage,
> in a 1v1 combat, Minato would beat him mid diff at the very most
> he is superior to Jiraiya though,



Fukasaku said that they were surpassed in SM usage after Naruto achieved SM. He said that Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya and base Minato (in general) when he was able to use SM powers fully. 



> Never once was this stated,
> hell danzo alone commented on how Itachi is well above sasuke,
> 
> Sasuke displayed a good 1 second of V4 susanoo and couldnt even maintain it,
> ...



Except Itachi mentioning that the MS was the only reason Sasuke could never kill him. It stands to reason with the MS, Sasuke would just be stronger than Itachi. 

Danzo never said that. Danzo said that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is above Sasuke's normal Genjutsu. 

Unlike Itachi, Sasuke actually fought a lot of foes that require the MS. Put Sasuke in the same situation as Itachi and he'd maintain that Susanoo too; put Itachi in Sasuke's shoes and he'd do worse given his stamina.

He's not faster than Sasuke outside hand seals. Sasuke's Susanoo is much stronger, it has everything Itachi's does plus additional items and Kagutsuchi.

Izanami won't be KOing Sasuke unless Sasuke has some serious denial or uses Izanagi.



> hence why we look at feats, and portrayal
> and through both of them, the golden boys are above SM naruot and MS Sasuke



Feats should also consider the quality of foes certain characters were shown against. No chance in hell that the foes that MS Itachi faced were comparable to the ones Sasuke faced. It is also plausible that Pain Rikudou was probably stronger than anyone Minato has ever faced while he was alive (except arguably Tobi).

MS Itachi explicitly said that the only reason Sasuke wouldn't kill him is because of the MS. Likely this is why Itachi made the conscious decision to hold back on Sasuke. 

SM Naruto, we have Fukasaku's statement. Moreover if base Minato really was unsurpassed, what's the sense in making him more powerful than he was when he was alive upon his return?


> Yet the man still concluded that he was madara, and gave his life into sealing the kyuubi within naruto in hopes that he takes out this  ''madara'' in the future by harnessing thhe bijuus power,
> 
> when it comes to intelligence there is no doubt that itachi is smarter,



When did Minato ever conclude Tobi was Madara? He was the only guy to doubt the guy was Madara after concluding he was Madara. He sealed Kurama within Naruto because he knew Tobi would be a threat, regardless if he was Madara or not.

Why is Itachi doubtlessly smarter than Minato? The Madara incident is the only comparable thing we've got.
However what else is there? Both were geniuses, but Minato's led him to perfect jutsu like Hiraishin and master all the Uzumaki seals. We're led to believe Itachi was like the average MS user, not even able to unlock Kagutsuchi. 

Apart from that ... what else can we say? From the little snippets we can compare, Minato seems to edge a victory.



> i sense a strong feeling of hatred



Itachi _does_ have a 2.5/5 in the stamina department... which so happens to be the same state as most women and children in databooks 2 and 3.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

another ranged attack

 I do believe that Minato considered him to be Madara due to his abilities, but he clearly wasn't convinced because Madara was supposed to be long-dead. However, it's possible that this was because he may have not been aware of techniques such as Edo Tensei which revives the dead. If he had, he likely would have believed in the fallacy that he was Madara.

 But then again, this is based on the assumption that Minato doesn't have knowledge on that. Of course, Minato has extensive knowledge on S/T and one of the best sealing techniques in the manga, so I'm not sure.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

^ Yeah, I think Minato dismissed the notion of Tobi being Madara, considering him to have perished long ago. He entertained the idea for a moment due to the similarities (e.g. Kyuubi, Breaching Barriers and etc.) But what is worse, is that he couldn't recognize that it was his student even for a moment.


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## StickaStick (Jun 1, 2015)

There's actually good cause for him not recognizing it was Obito; his (Obito's) chakra signature was altered by a good deal from the last time the two where together.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> ^ Yeah, I think Minato dismissed the notion of Tobi being Madara, considering him to have perished long ago. He entertained the idea for a moment due to the similarities (e.g. Kyuubi, Breaching Barriers and etc.) But what is worse, is that he couldn't recognize that it was his student even for a moment.



 Well, Obito was presumed to be dead and didn't have the skills required to perform the feats he was capable of. That, and attacking the village would seem unlike Obito considering he did desire to be Hokage.

 But hey, everything's done for the sake of plot. Minato mentioning the possibility of him being Obito would've ruined the suspense of Tobi's identity being revealed even though it was fairly obvious after Tobi was proven not to be Madara.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> There's actually good cause for him not recognizing it was Obito; his (Obito's) chakra signature was altered by a good deal from the last time the two where together.


I mean, he did speak to him to right? I doubt he was using a voice changer.



NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Obito was presumed to be dead and didn't have the skills required to perform the feats he was capable of. That, and attacking the village would seem unlike Obito considering he did desire to be Hokage.
> 
> But hey, everything's done for the sake of plot. Minato mentioning the possibility of him being Obito would've ruined the suspense of Tobi's identity being revealed even though it was fairly obvious after Tobi was proven not to be Madara.


Yeah, truth be told, it would probably kill the suspense.


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## StickaStick (Jun 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I mean, he did speak to him to right? I doubt he was using a voice changer.


I'd imagine he did change his voice to sound like Madara, for two reasons: (1) Why not? It would have been simple enough; and (2) it would probably help support the facade, especially if he would ever run into someone like, say, an Onoki who would be familiar with what Mads sounds like.


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## Phonas (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> You do know that Kabuto did not use any ET against him, right?
> and even more Kabuto trashed itachi had it not been for Sasuke's saving him.



Not the point...If Kabuto supposedly made eye contact with Itachi, Itachi would indirectly have Edo Tensei at his disposal. Kabuto not using ET against Itachi is irrelevant because there were ETs outside the cave operating under auto-control, fighting the Shinobi Alliance.Itachi, again, could have hypothetically manipulated those Edos if desired to utilize Tsukuyomi for that purpose. The whole point of me saying all this is to prove that Orochimaru, lacking the ability to shut his vision like Kabuto, will inadvertently and inevitably look into Itachi's eyes rendering his Edos useless.




Itachi avoiding the offense and thus holding back throughout the battle when he could have Totsuka blitzed Kabuto (who had the luxury to use all his jutsus) at any given moment, makes your Kabuto thrashing Itachi argument erroneous. Sasuke was partially the reason why Kabuto even landed a legit hit on Itachi. In addition to that, every hit Itachi took was deliberate as they were necessary for fulfilling the Izanami requirement. Now the factors of battling and combating scenario would have been completely different if Itachi's intent was to kill.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Phonas said:


> Not the point...If Kabuto supposedly made eye contact with Itachi, Itachi would indirectly have Edo Tensei at his disposal. Kabuto not using ET against Itachi is irrelevant because there were ETs outside the cave operating under auto-control, fighting the Shinobi Alliance.Itachi, again, could have hypothetically manipulated those Edos if desired to utilize Tsukuyomi for that purpose. The whole point of me saying all this is to prove that Orochimaru, lacking the ability to shut his vision like Kabuto, will inadvertently and inevitably look into Itachi's eyes rendering his Edos useless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this post is full of win
itachi will always be above orochimaru because all of itachi techniques are basically designed to troll orochimaru 

ET- tskuyomi or totsuka  gets rid of them. regardless of their level. all he need do is look at orochimaru and the ET go away
yamata- we see how that went 

orochimaru other jutsu are irrelevant. when his top 2 can be trolled by itachi. 

Itachi is one of those complete characters to me. though starts getting a spanking once the likes of minato show up.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

another ranged attack

 Yeah, Itachi creating an opening for Kabuto was deliberate to create he preparations needed for Izanami. Actually, Itachi being an Edo Tensei further exemplifies that due to enhanced regeneration and the fact that he can't be eliminated by measly hits implies Itachi would have no need to avoid attacks that are unnecessary to avoid in the first place. Itachi's not the kind of person to waste moves in the first place after all.

 Even then, it was directly implied that both had the potential of killing SM Kabuto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

That is actually true. 
Itachi deliberately lowered Susano'o as he taunted Kabuto. He had to lure Kabuto in to be able to close the loop. And he in fact close the loop, as things played out the way they were supposed to. Sasuke threw his sword, Kabuto grabbed it, which allowed Itachi to be able to replicate that exact moment they had before. 

You know it is actually ridiculous that Itachi planned all that. He literally predicted every move Sasuke & Kabuto were going to make. It really requires some kind of omnipotence to be able to do such precise planning. 
Dat King


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

Phonas said:


> Not the point...If Kabuto supposedly made eye contact with Itachi, Itachi would indirectly have Edo Tensei at his disposal. Kabuto not using ET against Itachi is irrelevant because there were ETs outside the cave operating under auto-control, fighting the Shinobi Alliance.Itachi, again, could have hypothetically manipulated those Edos if desired to utilize Tsukuyomi for that purpose. The whole point of me saying all this is to prove that Orochimaru, lacking the ability to shut his vision like Kabuto, will inadvertently and inevitably look into Itachi's eyes rendering his Edos useless.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




how would Itachi (in Oro with ET's case) even get the chance to put him under his genjutsu when he will get fodderstompped by the ET? He won't be able to focus on Oro, as the Edo Hokage are not going to stay and look at him, it would be the same with Hiruzen here. 
another ranged attack
another ranged attack

fighting 5 at the same time, 4 of which are stronger than itachi by their own, is not the same as dealing with 1. 
So, yeah, if Oro used his ET, then itachi is as good as dead, his genjutsu is useless as he won't be able to get around the 4 Hokages to reach Oro to begin with. 


- No he couldn't speedblitze Kabuto lol. Kabuto was easily dodging them, it's itachi who couldn't dodge Kabuto's attacks twice and needed Sasuke to save him.  

No, Sasuke is the reason why itachi was not Kabuto's puppet again, he even apologised for it. 

- How the hell getting cut in half and fodderstompped by the rocks was important for his Izanami? 
yes, a direct physical connect is important, but those hits were irrelevant to the jutsu. The 2 times that were used for Izanami were with the crows clones. Not when he got fodderstompped.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> ^ Yeah, I think Minato dismissed the notion of Tobi being Madara, considering him to have perished long ago. He entertained the idea for a moment due to the similarities (e.g. Kyuubi, Breaching Barriers and etc.) But what is worse, is that he couldn't recognize that it was his student even for a moment.



There was no way to recognise Obito. The MS, and arguably Obito's new mental state* alongside having Hashirama's cells... there was never a way for Minato to find out it was Obito.


*Seeing as mental energy + physical energy = chakra. You can argue that say, having more hatred (altered mental energy), will change the output of chakra.
Tobirama basically tells you why the MS alone made it impossible for Minato to recognise Obito.

Of course it seriously does say something that despite everything, unlike everyone else, Minato still doubted Tobi was Madara. Yet Itachi literally believed a stranger in the woods who just said he was Madara. Even if Danzo told Itachi, the latter didn't have the smarts to question it like Minato did.


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## T-Bag (Jun 2, 2015)

Itachi believed he was madara because he knew things that only madara would know. keep in mind obito was PERSONALLY mentored by madara to be  him so yeah.

Minato didn't know shit and only chose not to believe him because "he was long dead", which by the way was false. even kisame didn't believe him at first for the same reason minato didn't, until he learned about his power and his plan... i guess that makes kisame equally as smart as minato, right? no.. In other words minato did not know enough about him for him to even consider he's madara.

Minato smarter than itachi, since when lmao? it's itachi's character that was always being praised for his wisdom, not minato. minato couldnt recognize his own student .. such a smart guy. even obito called him out on this one.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2015)

Not even Yahiko believed that Tobi was Madara, however.

Can't recognise Obito whose chakra has changed drastically. Plus Minato's hype was displayed while Itachi's was said then had contradictory actions such as assuming he can do everything alone and blindly believing what Danzo and Tobi said. 

Minato (and Yahiko, if you want to play it that way) were the only ones who had the mental capabilities to question Tobi's claim that he was Madara. 

Obito was just pissed off that Minato was never there to save Rin and himself (though Madara said he timed his plans so Minato wouldn't be around). Whereas Itachi... Itachi was played like everyone else by Obito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Jun 2, 2015)

no one believed he was madara at first because the idea of him being alive was ABSURD given the timeline. It's only natural you'd deny the possibility at first. even the frog laughed at jiraiya for even suggesting something that "ridiculous". EVEN ONOKI said he finds it hard to believe that madara is alive. but IN THE LONG RUN they all chose to believe him because he had the knowledge and power that only madara had access too. tell me i'm wrong go ahed. you think itachi didn't question he was madara at first? im sure he did but eventually he believed he was madara because of his range of knowledge and personality

 again, madara personally mentored obito about sharingan, rinnegan, bijuu control, rikuodu sennin, uchiha history etc... it's only convincing that he's madara. THATS WHY THE ENTIRE NINJA WORLD fell for his trick.
Had minato spent a little more timing learning about him, he'd been a victim as well, but like i said he did not know enough about the guy. this guy couldn't figure out the masked guy was his own student.. enough plz. he's not as smart as you think he is

About yahiko, lolol. you forget that "madara Uchiha" convinced him into creating akatsuki, which means he succumbed to "madara uchiha" as well. the fact nagato and konan believed he was madara goes to show that yahiko (their leader) believed it too. there goes your other smart guy hahaha. I keep telling you man, minato and yahiko didn't know enough at first so it's only normal they'd question it, but with time that changed.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

A good way to look at this thread would be how does his ninjutsu compare overall to the people of this thread 
or his genjutsu, or taijutsu, or speed or reflexes, or stamina 

for example vs tobirama

*ninjutsu-*

 I consider them equal. hirashin+ET = susanoo+amaterasu. While susanoo provides defence, hirashin provides evasion. amaterasu attack speed as well as things like totsuka, hirashin covers that once again

fire power GFK>> everything itachi has. 

hax, ET is just as difficult to deal with as susanoo in my opinion you need specific jutsu to stop either 

*taijutsu (cqc skills ) involves sword play and kunai throwing skills *

I think they are fairly even 

*Genjutsu itachi violates*

however he looses in stamina, and movement speed 

giving tobirama in terms of rating a very slight overall edge


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is actually true.
> Itachi deliberately lowered Susano'o as he taunted Kabuto. He had to lure Kabuto in to be able to close the loop. And he in fact close the loop, as things played out the way they were supposed to. Sasuke threw his sword, Kabuto grabbed it, which allowed Itachi to be able to replicate that exact moment they had before.
> 
> You know it is actually ridiculous that Itachi planned all that. He literally predicted every move Sasuke & Kabuto were going to make. It really requires some kind of omnipotence to be able to do such precise planning.
> Dat King



 Agreed.

 Itachi is forever the solo king.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There was no way to recognise Obito. The MS, and arguably Obito's new mental state* alongside having Hashirama's cells... there was never a way for Minato to find out it was Obito.
> 
> 
> *Seeing as mental energy + physical energy = chakra. You can argue that say, having more hatred (altered mental energy), will change the output of chakra.
> ...



I mean, I understand that all together, but even if someone I spent a good amount of time training decide to leave and showed up in a fight with a mask on, there are certain things that would stand out, say like his voice.

Also, didn't Obito introduce himself as Madara to Itachi? However, when Minato fought him, Minato was the one that made the assumption at first that the masked man could have been Obito?


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi believed he was madara because he knew things that only madara would know. keep in mind obito was PERSONALLY mentored by madara to be  him so yeah.
> 
> Minato didn't know shit and only chose not to believe him because "he was long dead", which by the way was false. even kisame didn't believe him at first for the same reason minato didn't, until he learned about his power and his plan... i guess that makes kisame equally as smart as minato, right? no.. In other words minato did not know enough about him for him to even consider he's madara.
> 
> Minato smarter than itachi, since when lmao? it's itachi's character that was always being praised for his wisdom, not minato. minato couldnt recognize his own student .. such a smart guy. even obito called him out on this one.



how is it that both being superior to itachi is bad now? 
you're trying desperately to make itachi's look good in caparison, but the fact he is not. Also, when Kisame say him, he said "this world is full with lies" for a reason. 



> Minato smarter than itachi, since when lmao?


Since forever? 

And itachi couldn't recognize his own master.  
for TEN fucking years. Such a smart guy indeed, Zetsu called him out in this one. 

heck, compared the 2, itachi's plans have always failed, unlike Minato. 
Minato was able to fine out obito's weakness in 1 encounter, itachi couldn't in 10 years. 

Minato praised to be a genius in generation, something itachi never reached. Heck, itachi was even learning from Minato
when he said that Naruto should follow his dad's way to not fail, unlike him. 

you said


> again, madara personally mentored obito about sharingan, rinnegan, bijuu control, rikuodu sennin, uchiha history etc... it's only convincing that he's madara. THATS WHY THE ENTIRE NINJA WORLD fell for his trick.



and yet itachi remains ignorant, and has no clue about anything true. 
like he believed that Sasuke's hatred is what makes the MS awake, when it's actually turned out to be about love. itachi thought that Madara took his brother's eyes
by force, which once again is not true either. He even admitted that he fucked up badly. What so wise about that? lol



> it's itachi's character that was always being praised for his wisdom, not minato.


(when was he even praised for being wise now I think about it? )
if anything, it's Minato who is praised for that not itachi for not doing anything without a reason or some thing like that. 





> Even now, it feels like if he is still there... that is evidence enough of how great his character was. The strong, wise, and generous Hokage... His spirit is shared by many of the great shinobi even today.



Your turn. 
where was it mentioned that itachi is wise?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I mean, I understand that all together, but even if someone I spent a good amount of time training decide to leave and showed up in a fight with a mask on, there are certain things that would stand out, say like his voice.
> 
> Also, didn't Obito introduce himself as Madara to Itachi? However, when Minato fought him, Minato was the one that made the assumption at first that the masked man could have been Obito?



If you want to go by the anime, Tobi was very capable of changing his voice. 

Minato based it on what Tobi did, but then immediately dismissed the idea. Even Gerotora dismissed the idea, but Itachi literally believed a stranger in the woods. That's why he approached him; Itachi came to the conclusion (without even questioning it like Minato did) and just assumed he was Madara. 



T-Bag said:


> no one believed he was madara at first because the idea of him being alive was ABSURD given the timeline. It's only natural you'd deny the possibility at first. even the frog laughed at jiraiya for even suggesting something that "ridiculous". EVEN ONOKI said he finds it hard to believe that madara is alive. but IN THE LONG RUN they all chose to believe him because he had the knowledge and power that only madara had access too. tell me i'm wrong go ahed. you think itachi didn't question he was madara at first? im sure he did but eventually he believed he was madara because of his range of knowledge and personality



Except Itachi... Itachi literally found a stranger in the woods that called himself Madara Uchiha. That's Itachi's story for why he believed Tobi is Madara.



> again, madara personally mentored obito about sharingan, rinnegan, bijuu control, rikuodu sennin, uchiha history etc... it's only convincing that he's madara. THATS WHY THE ENTIRE NINJA WORLD fell for his trick.
> Had minato spent a little more timing learning about him, he'd been a victim as well, but like i said he did not know enough about the guy. this guy couldn't figure out the masked guy was his own student.. enough plz. he's not as smart as you think he is



Despite personally mentoring Obito, Itachi was literally the only character in the series to believe Tobi was Madara without any real substance.

Everyone else was forced to believe it was Madara based on what Tobi did after the Uchiha massacre while combining it with what happened before.



> About yahiko, lolol. you forget that "madara Uchiha" convinced him into creating akatsuki, which means he succumbed to "madara uchiha" as well. the fact nagato and konan believed he was madara goes to show that yahiko (their leader) believed it too. there goes your other smart guy hahaha. I keep telling you man, minato and yahiko didn't know enough at first so it's only normal they'd question it, but with time that changed.



Akatsuki was formed before Tobi was in existence, brah. We don't know how, but somehow the _actual_ Madara Uchiha caused Akatsuki's formation. 

Nagato and Konan, now unlike Itachi there's a big ass time gap we don't have access too. We don't know what happened between the time Tobi met the Amegakure trio and to the time they believe he was Madara. A lot could have happened in between for them to be convinced he was Madara.

Itachi... we literally have the dude going in the woods and believing a stranger. Some would say that's a feat only an idiot could accomplish. Seriously... genius child just believes a random guy in the woods *whose wearing a mask*.


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## T-Bag (Jun 3, 2015)

this is ridiculous, im not feeding into these trolls lol


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

That's not a very good reply to not having any evidence that Itachi reasonably thought Tobi = Madara. That's a very big blunder. It isn't bad as a lot of people got played by the Madara act except for two... but one of those two is being compared to Itachi ITT.

If we're talking how smart one is compared to the other, Itachi believing Tobi was Madara, without question -- unlike Minato -- is something worth noting.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Those people know outliers when they see them. If Tobirama's _clone _ was legitimately able to out-speed Kyuubi Minato and get the drop on Juubito, then the _real_ Tobirama wouldn't have gotten shut down like he did against a vastly inferior Madara.
> 
> Doesn't help Minato's shunshin is > Tobirama's
> 
> ...



He did shut down, because Madara was that fast.

And i have never seen Shunshin increasing striking speed. It increases movement speed from point A to point B only. It's a travel speed technique.


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## Almondsand (Jul 8, 2015)

The Hokage
-*Itachi*
-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


The Sannin
- *Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

Previous Five Kage
- *Itachi*
-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


Edo Kage
- *Itachi*
-Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



The Akatsuki
- *Itachi*
-Obito
-Pein/Nagato 
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


I'm basing my list not only off of the abilities shown but the wits and tactics shown to execute and gain results. Itachi has shown the best tactics in the manga as well as the best patience, he never gets touched unless planned. An ambitious, power hungry no disease ridden Itachi will be hard pressed to be the absolute best by his intellect. I believe he would be. He was riddled by disease, that hampered his limitless potential. He one shots everyone with his genjustu, lets them kill their own self without breaking a sweat. He's greater than Aizen when it comes to the illusions.


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## Matty (Jul 8, 2015)

The Hokage

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
*Itachi*
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


The Sannin
*Itachi/Oro(ET)*
-Jiraiya
-Tsunade

Previous Five Kage

*Itachi*
-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei


Edo Kage

*Itachi*
- Third Raikage
-Mu
-Gengetsu
-Rasa



The Akatsuki

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-*Itachi*
-Sasori/Kisame
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


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## RedChidori (Jul 8, 2015)

Cordelia said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...



I pretty much agree with all of this .


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## The Undying (Jul 8, 2015)

Healthy Itachi, eh? I kinda feel bad ranking him as highly as I do.

*The Hokage*

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato / *Itachi*
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen (old)
Kakashi


*The Sannin*

*Itachi*
Jiraiya
Orochimaru (without Edo Tensei) / Tsunade

*The Gokage*

*Itachi*
Onoki
Ei / Tsunade
Gaara
Mei


*Edo Kage*

*Itachi*
Sandaime Raikage
Muu / Gengetsu
Rasa



*The Akatsuki*

Pain / Obito (MS) / *Itachi*
Orochimaru
Sasori 
Kisame
Kakuzu
Deidara
Konan
Hidan


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## Nikushimi (Jul 9, 2015)

Kyu said:


> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...



Itachi is leaps and bounds weaker than Hashirama, on par with Minato and Tobirama, and in a league above all the rest.



> _*The Sannin*_
> 
> -Jiraiya
> -Orochimaru
> -Tsunade



Itachi is in a league above all three.



> _*Previous Five Kage*_
> 
> -Ei
> -Onoki
> ...



Itachi is in a league above all five.



> _*Edo Kage*_
> 
> - Third Raikage
> -Mu
> ...



Yeah, again, Itachi is head and shoulders above all of them.



> _*The Akatsuki*_
> 
> -Pein
> -Obito (MS)
> ...



Itachi is on par with Pain, marginally stronger than Obito, and a league above the rest.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 9, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Itachi at his peak without any illness hampering him.
> 
> Take homie's entire arsenal into account.
> 
> ...



This is gonna be the bottom line, this is where Itachi stands, no Wank, No downplaying.

*Hokage*:
0. *Naruto Uzumaki* = *Sasuke Uchiha*
 1. *Hashirama Senju*
 2. *Minato Namikaze*
 3. *Tobirama Senju* = *Itachi Uchiha*
 4. *Tsunade Senju*
 5. *Kakashi Hatake*
  6. *Old Hiruzen*

*Gokage*:  
1. *Itachi Uchiha*
                       2. *Onoki*
                       3. *Ei*
                       4. *Tsunade Senju*
                        5. *Gaara*
                         6. *Mei Terumi*

*Sannin*:
1. *Itachi Uchiha*
2. *Orochimaru*
3. *Jiraiya*
4. *Tsunade Senju*

*Edo Kages*
1. *Itachi Uchiha*
2. *Sandaime Raikage*
3. *Mu* = *Gengetsu Hozuki*
4. *Rasa*

*Akatsuki*:
1. *Obito Uchiha* = *Nagato Uzumaki*
2. *Pein Rikudo* = *Itachi Uchiha*
3. *Kisame Hoshigaki*
4. *Sasori*
5. *Deidara*
6. *Kakuzu*
7. *Konan*
8. *Hidan*


Feel free to ask for explanations for anything (:!


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 9, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, again, Itachi is head and shoulders above all of them.


After re-reading some of the manga, I'm starting to have my doubts about Itachi being greater than the 3rd Raikage by any large margin.


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## thechickensage (Jul 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If Tobirama's willingness to look into Sasuke's EMS was any indication, Itachi has a _very_ good chance of beating Tobirama.​




...you mean when he looked into Sasuke's eyes...as a dead Edo Tensi body...talking to the people who resurrected him?  Why would that be an indication of a 1v1 living Tobirama, who has had more experience than anyone except Hashirama at fighting Uchiha?

Dunno why you would think that he would be that dumb if it were combat...

Hokage:
0. Naruto Uzumaki = Sasuke Uchiha
1. Hashirama Senju
2. Minato Namikaze
3. Tobirama Senju = Itachi Uchiha
4. Tsunade Senju
5. Kakashi Hatake
6. Old Hiruzen

Gokage: 
1. Itachi Uchiha
2. Onoki
3. Ei
4. Tsunade Senju
5. Gaara
6. Mei Terumi

Sannin:
1.  Itachi Uchiha = Jiraiya SM = Orochimaru
2. Tsunade Senju

Edo Kages
1. Itachi Uchiha
2. Sandaime Raikage
3. Mu
4. Gengetsu Hozuki
5. Rasa

Akatsuki:
0. Nagato Uzumaki
1. Obito Uchiha
2. Itachi Uchiha
3. Kisame Hoshigaki
4. Sasori
5. Deidara
6. Kakuzu
7. Konan
8. Hidan​


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> all evidence to the contrary
> 
> kakashi clone says otherwise
> 
> ...





To be fair, I think that the panel might've suggested something else entirely. 

From what I gather, he might've been talking about how it doesn't affect the "Original" user, not the clone itself. We clearly see the clone being inside the genjutsu, so it obviously worked, it just didn't affect the original which means it was unsuccessful.


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> To be fair, I think that the panel might've suggested something else entirely.
> 
> From what I gather, he might've been talking about how it doesn't affect the "Original" user, not the clone itself. We clearly see the clone being inside the genjutsu, so it obviously worked, it just didn't affect the original which means it was unsuccessful.



It clearly didn't since it had zero effect on the clonE. Pain related genjutsu and the clone didn't even react to it 

Though we have seen on panel genjutsu work on clones 

So maybe it's just the level itachi used was shit


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It clearly didn't since it had zero effect on the clonE. Pain related genjutsu and the clone didn't even react to it
> 
> Though we have seen on panel genjutsu work on clones
> 
> So maybe it's just the level itachi used was shit



The clone also had sharingan, and the genjutsu Itachi used was also from an Itachi clone. I am not surprised that it didn't do much to it considering it was a genjutsu casted from a clone to another clone.

I would lean towards Clone kakashi resisted the genjutsu against clone Itachi's genjutsu instead of genjutsu NOT working on clones because other evidence suggests that genjutsu's do work.


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## Gemmysaur (Jul 17, 2016)

_*The Hokage*_

Nardo
Haharama
Minato
Angerama/Itachi
Kakashi
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Sharingan-less Kakashi

_*The Sannin*_

Orochimaru with prep (Edo Tensei)
Jiraiya/Itachi
Orochimaru without prep (no Edo)
Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

Itachi
AAAA
Onoki
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei

_*Edo Kage*_

Itachi
AAA
Mu
Gengetsu
Rasa


_*The Akatsuki*_

Obito
Pein
Itachi
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara/Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The clone also had sharingan, and the genjutsu Itachi used was also from an Itachi clone. I am not surprised that it didn't do much to it considering it was a genjutsu casted from a clone to another clone.
> 
> I would lean towards Clone kakashi resisted the genjutsu against clone Itachi's genjutsu instead of genjutsu NOT working on clones because other evidence suggests that genjutsu's do work.



I think the genjutsu was simply weak that's all there is to it 

I don't think clones are immune to genjutsu 

j know however catching them does nothing to the original


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I think the genjutsu was simply weak that's all there is to it
> 
> I don't think clones are immune to genjutsu
> 
> j know however catching them does nothing to the original



I wouldn't exactly call it weak. Kakashi naturally has immunity to standard sharingan genjutsu due to his own sharingan. It was shown when he and Obito exchanged in genjutsu with neither getting the upper-hand.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I wouldn't exactly call it weak. Kakashi naturally has immunity to standard sharingan genjutsu due to his own sharingan. It was shown when he and Obito exchanged in genjutsu with neither getting the upper-hand.



Wouldn't call it strong either 
Neither has hype or feats to suggest 
It will do much


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

As for his standing as per OP statement he would be very high up or top in most groups 

Only the likes of nagato, hashirama , minato , Obito , Tobirama I would say are above itachi 

By the nature and power of their jutsu 

For example : hashirama Moukton is simply at a level beyond what itachi does . 

Nagato 6 path jutsu is in the same boat 

I find Tobirama comparable with Hirashin and ET to itachi MS

And I find minato comparable 
With Hirashin and SM to itachi MS 

The others in their varying categories are simply below

I won't compare clam mist +JB to MS techniques


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Wouldn't call it strong either
> Neither has hype or feats to suggest
> It will do much



"1V1 Surely flee" anyone? 

Orochimaru struggling to Kai himself out?

Raikage knocked down anyone?

Killer Bee anyone?

Shee anyone?

Even Danzo?


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## Veracity (Jul 18, 2016)

Hokage:
Naruto
Hashirama
FTG users
Itachi
Tsunade
Hiruzen( by feats)
Kakashi

Sannin:
Itachi
Tsunade / Jirayia / Oro

War Gokage:
Itachi
Tsunade/Onoki
Ay
Gaara
Mei

Edo Kage:
Itachi
AAA/Muu/Troll Kage
Kazekaze

Akatsuki:
Obito
Nagato
Pain/ MS Obito
Itachi
Kisame/ Sasori( hype)
Deidara/Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Hokage:
> Naruto
> Hashirama
> FTG users
> ...



Sorry I only have to question your ranking of Kakashi 
Really though

How you come up with that 
That based on feats hiruzen > Kakashi 
How ?


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> "1V1 Surely flee" anyone?
> 
> Orochimaru struggling to Kai himself out?
> 
> ...



Raikage Knocked down by EMS genjutsu 
Danzo broke Ms genjutsu 
He fell to one too weak to notice ( so that's good and it worked )
Cee is fodder 
Oro struggled true , don't forget how he shrugged he same genjutsu the second time with zero difficulty 
Till plot kicked in 
Killer bee trolled Sharingan genjutsu twice though , he broke out with ease


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## Veracity (Jul 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry I only have to question your ranking of Kakashi
> Really though
> 
> How you come up with that
> ...


I don't rate Kakashi without Sharingan highly. I mean he could have gotten stronger over the time gap, but if it's just War Arc Kakashi without the sharingan, then that takes away his speed advantage, Kamui, and lighting blade. Hiruzen should win with Kage bunshin and massive sized elemental spam... if he has the Chakra that is.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I don't rate Kakashi without Sharingan highly. I mean he could have gotten stronger over the time gap, but if it's just War Arc Kakashi without the sharingan, then that takes away his speed advantage, Kamui, and lighting blade. Hiruzen should win with Kage bunshin and massive sized elemental spam... if he has the Chakra that is.



Oh I didn't know it was non MS Kakashi 
If so then I agree 

Where would you put MS Kakashi though


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Raikage Knocked down by EMS genjutsu
> Danzo broke Ms genjutsu
> He fell to one too weak to notice ( so that's good and it worked )
> Cee is fodder
> ...



Is there such thing as EMS or MS genjutsu? Last I checked, it was just simply "Sharingan genjutsu".

Danzo broke through with his own MS+Hashi cells - And he STILL barely made it in time. Without the seal prior to that, Danzo would've got stabbed in the back. (Although he still has Izanagi).

C was no fodder. He was a good sensor and a genjutsu user himself. Sure as hell better than Jiraiya. 

Orochimaru failed. Period. 

Killer Bee "trolled" it only due to Hachibi. He would've died against Itachi like fodder. The same base Hachibi who soloed Taka.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Is there such thing as EMS or MS genjutsu? Last I checked, it was just simply "Sharingan genjutsu".
> 
> Danzo broke through with his own MS+Hashi cells - And he STILL barely made it in time. Without the seal prior to that, Danzo would've got stabbed in the back. (Although he still has Izanagi).
> 
> ...




So you implying rinnegan genjutsu = Sharingan genjutsu by that extension then 

Stronger eye stronger genjutsu power that's common sense 

Scans which show danzo broke it with his Sharingan . 
His eye was dormant then . He couldn't use it. Izanagi tactic was a stall for that eye to come back . Read the bloody manga 

No statements also indicate hashi cells had anytbing to do with it 

C is fodder end of . The guy got no panel time or relevance therefore he is fodder 
Might as well claim someone on kurenai level is relevant and non fodder 

Oro shat on the same genjutsu itachi used 
Do you need scans 

Killer bee broke it end of 
Hachibi is part of him

Might as well claim itachi won't have been able to cast it without eyes 
Though he bloody got them


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So you implying rinnegan genjutsu = Sharingan genjutsu by that extension then
> 
> Stronger eye stronger genjutsu power that's common sense
> 
> ...







> Stronger eye stronger genjutsu power that's common sense



Shisui MS > EMS Madara, EMS Sasuke in eye power? Cool. 

Different eyes have different purposes and they have different powers/speciality.




> Scans which show danzo broke it with his Sharingan .
> His eye was dormant then . He couldn't use it. Izanagi tactic was a stall for that eye to come back . Read the bloody manga



Did you happen to miss the dozen sharingan on Danzo's arms? Hashi cells just boosts you in general. Especially the sharingan, considering it lets you spam Koto every day instead of once a decade.




> C is fodder end of . The guy got no panel time or relevance therefore he is fodder
> Might as well claim someone on kurenai level is relevant and non fodder



He may be fodder, but at least he actually has feats. His feats consists of genjutsu and sensing...Jiraiya has none.




> Oro shat on the same genjutsu itachi used
> Do you need scans



Oro got fucked by Itachi's genjutsu. Do you actually need a panel for this?



> Killer bee broke it end of
> Hachibi is part of him



Jiraiya has no Hachibi inside of him to bail him out of genjutsu. That was my point. Without Hachibi, Killer Bee Soloed Team Taka, so he's already kage tier already WITHOUT Hachibi. Itachi would have made Bee look like fodder if Hachibi didn't help.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 18, 2016)

Ok really what is Itachi supposed to do vs The Third Raikage?


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## Veracity (Jul 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry I only have to question your ranking of Kakashi
> Really though
> 
> How you come up with that
> ...





Icegaze said:


> Oh I didn't know it was non MS Kakashi
> If so then I agree
> 
> Where would you put MS Kakashi though


 On Tsunade's tier. Outside of DMS and the 8th Gate , I do not think the masters have surpassed the Legendary Sannin.


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## Ashi (Jul 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> On Tsunade's tier. Outside of DMS and the 8th Gate , I do not think the masters have surpassed the Legendary Sannin.




Why not? They've gone toe to toe with people on Pains level, and are versatile enough to defeat any of the sannin


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## Bonly (Jul 18, 2016)

_*The Hokage*_


-Naruto
-Hashi
-Minato/*Itachi*
-Tobi/Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_


-Orochi 
-*Itachi*
-Jiraiya/Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_


-*Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Onoki
-Gaara
-Mei
-A


_*Edo Kage*_


-*Itachi*
-The French Dude
-Muu
-Sandaime Raikage
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_


-Obito 
-Pain
-*Itachi*
-Sasori
-Kisame/Konan
-Kakuzu
-Deidara
-Hidan


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 18, 2016)

_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato/Tobirama
-Tobirama/Minato
*-Itachi*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*The Sannin*_
*-Itachi*
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

*-Itachi*
-Onoki
-Gaara
-Tsunade
-Ei
-Mei


_*Edo Kage*_

*-Itachi*
- Mu/Gengetsu
- Gengetsu
-3rd Raikage
-Rasa



_*The Akatsuki*_

-Obito
-Pein
*-Itachi*
The Rest

Although I do believe that Mu or Gengetsu has the ability to take out Itachi. This is all dependent on if you believe Itachi can see Mu or see through Gengetsu genjutsu and joki boi jutsu before he drops dead of exhaustion


----------



## Veracity (Jul 18, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Why not? They've gone toe to toe with people on Pains level, and are versatile enough to defeat any of the sannin



They haven't fought anyone on Pains level.  Kakashi with backup and a knowledge advantage battled 2 of 6 Pain and was hard countered at every end and eventually died. Other then that, Gai and Kakashi battled watered down Jin paths before being overwhelmed and saved by Naruto. I think any Sannin could replicated those feats, which is why I think Gai and Kakashi are on that level but not surpassing them. They can beat the Sannin with high difficulty and vice versa; but that doesnt put either on different levels.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2016)

_*The Hokage*_

1- Naruto
2- Hashirama
3- Minato
4- Tobirama
5- *Itachi*
6- Tsunade
7- Hiruzen (Old)

Don't know where to rank Prime-Hiruzen, or Hokage-Kakashi, too little info.

_*The Sannin*_

1- Jiraiya
2- *Itachi*
3- Orochimaru
4- Tsunade

_*Previous Five Kage*_

1- *Itachi*
2- Onoki
3- Tsunade
4- Gaara
5- Ei
6- Mei

_*Edo Kage*_

1- *Itachi*
2- Gengetsu
3- Mu
4- Sandaime-Raikage
5- Rasa

_*The Akatsuki*_

1- Pein
2- Obito (MS)
3- *Itachi*
4- Sasori
5- Kisame
6- Kakuzu
7- Deidara
8- Hidan

Can't Rank Konan or Zetsu


----------

