# Tobirama vs Base Minato



## Veracity (Jan 15, 2014)

Location: Konoha Crater
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Distance: 40m
Reatrictions: Elder Toads.

~ Tobirama only gets 1 Edo Torune ~

Know I'm a bit late, but this is for Elia , especially because it's confirmed that Tobirama has Lvl 2 FTG( IDK how many times I argued he did) ; him

Also to note how he was noted to be the fastest ninja just like Minato but his title was probabaly passed when he died, just like Ay.


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## Ersa (Jan 15, 2014)

You underestimate Elia's power 

Eh, Minato still wins. His Shunshin is still confirmed superior, his FTG is still more versatile, I'd still say Minato is smarter despite both their recent lackluster intelligence feats (geniuses ) and his toad summons can help with Tobirama's Suitons. S/T barrier reflecting a explosive tags back at Tobirama could be a nasty surprise. At worst it's a draw via Shiki Fuujin, at best Minato wins high difficulty.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 15, 2014)

Tobirama wins, it might be true that Minato is faster, but that does not make up for his inferior Ninjutsu and intelligence. Tobirama's Suiton more then makes up for his slight inferiority in speed while intelligence is an add on bonus. Also, Minato does not normally incorporate his clones into his fighting style. Edo Torune is not needed, however I don't see how Minato would be able to seal him if he covers his body in poison like he did against Obito. And explosive Fuda is a valid counter to Boss Summons as well as reach out a wide area to destroy more of Minato's spread out Kunai.


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## ARGUS (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato wins this high diff 

This battle would be a predominant use of FTG,,, but seeing as how minato can spread marks throughout the battlefield,, makes his FTG more versatile and efficient to use
Furthermore,,, minato would start the battle with his kunai spread throughout and immediately he has an advantage over tobirama since he has many places to teleport,,,
AS for the explosions jutsu,, Minato can obviously escape it through FTG or can use S/T barrier to prevent himself from the multiple bombs
Minato is basically a better version of Tobirama,,,,, the only way i see tobirama winning this is if the battle is prolonged to an extent where chakra reserves and stamina are the only things that matter,,, since those are the things Tobirama is superior to Minato in.....


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## Veracity (Jan 15, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> You underestimate Elia's power
> 
> Eh, Minato still wins. His Shunshin is still confirmed superior, his FTG is still more versatile, I'd still say Minato is smarter despite both their recent lackluster intelligence feats (geniuses ) and his toad summons can help with Tobirama's Suitons. S/T barrier reflecting a explosive tags back at Tobirama could be a nasty surprise. At worst it's a draw via Shiki Fuujin, at best Minato wins high difficulty.



We've been over this shunshin thing Kyokan. Feats Say otherwise, and not a single person on this forum has been able to say debate against it. They simply cannot deny the feat . Also it's to note that Shunshin is sometimes noted to be FTG; 

Tobirama has shown much smarter feats then Minato. Minato didn't even not his arm was torn off by Obito and wasn't regenerating. Tobirama noticed this and was able to identify the exact Justu used to do such. He was able to find out the weakness of Obito before everyone except Naruto. He was smart and speedy enough to tag Obito and use infinite explosion, Sage resengan, AMA + FRS combination, and his own orb against him. He was smart enough to capitalize on Madara being distracted and created an opening for Sasuke. Minato has one impressive intelligence . 

Suitons completely bisect the toads and Tobirama with his insane shunshin speed, FTG skills, and Infinite explosion destroys also destroy the slow ass toads.

They both have ST barrier btw. And it's a draw at worse, at best Tobirama wins high difficulty.


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## Bonly (Jan 15, 2014)

I say that the winner more times depends on who can outlast who. Most of Minato's arsenal is the same as Tobi's with small difference such as one summons toads while the other summons dead people, one uses Rasengan while the other uses Suiton ect. and the differences isn't big enough to where one holds an clear advantage so it comes down who can outlast who IMO.


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## Baroxio (Jan 15, 2014)

Tobirama has better reactions and sensing than Minato, which means more when both opponents are using FTG. Furthermore, Tobirama is more versatile with his Suitons, so I'd say he can take it.


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## crisler (Jan 16, 2014)

I agree that the battle would be a battle of speed as both are confident with it, and I also think Minato has better offensive prowess with the hiraishin. However....

That doesn't mean tobirama can't avoid his attacks. I believe the two will only be hit once they try to attack: just like obito. If Tobirama focuses on the defence, then I don't think minato will hit him. Once both of them decide to attack, Minato will be the winner, but that is IF the battle is solely of hiraishin.

Tobirama is not only a sensor, but highly analytic and excluding the hiraishins it seems tobirama does have more versatility than minato. In its usage in battle I think minato is better, but overall understanding of hiraishin goes to tobirama, in my opinion. Add these up, I see two scenarios.

1. Tobirama decides to fight battle of hiraishins.
2. Tobirama doesn't fight the battle of hiraishin, but only uses it as an escaping route.

If scenario one occurs, Minato should win
If scenario two occurs, then I'd say Tobirama wins.


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## Coppur (Jan 16, 2014)

These two are pretty much equal in all aspects:

Minato has better reactions, but Tobirama makes up for it with better awareness via sensing.

Tobirama has ET, Minato has frogs.

Tobirama's suiton haven't been all that impressive, so I'd put his current suiton equal to the Rasengan.

Tobirama seems to have superior stamina, but Minato has the better taijutsu aptitude.

Both have Kage Bunshin.

Intelligence is iffy, I don't think anyone can deny how lackluster Minato's intelligence feats have been in the past arc. However, Minato has shown amazing intelligence feats and hype prior to his revival. So I'd say they're equal or Tobirama is slightly superior.

Where they differ, however, is in Hiraishin, Minato can get out 30 seals before Tobirama can get out 1, giving a large advantage of unpredictability and mobility that Tobirama lacks. This coupled with a faster Shunshin makes Minato the superior of the two, albeit slightly.


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## J★J♥ (Jan 16, 2014)

Tobiramas Kagebunshin is >>>> Minato at his strognest. 
Do i have to post manga pages where Tobirama makes 5 techniques before Bujuu enchanted minato has chance to move his finger ?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 16, 2014)

Tobirama can't win with Shiki Fūjin on the table.


*And, here's a list of his Suitons:*





I don't quite understand how his Suitons would be relevant against Minato. The only that has the potential to is Suiton: Suidanha, and Minato can easily dodge that with Hiraishin. Unlike the Rasengan, Suitons also require hand-signs, which, due to the nature of this battle, is a clear disadvantage. Gojō Kibaku Fuda can also be evaded via FTG, or can be reflected back at Tobirama with a S/T barrier.

And why are we using half-retarded, "Oh Naruto, you're so gr8", PIS Minato when we've already seen that he has an incredible genius level intellect from his previous fight with the Kyūbi? 

We also have to take into account the unknown factor of Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbu Kōsan Shiki, which could shift the odds even more towards Minato.


But, I couldn't give less of a shit, in all honesty, this is just my 2 cents. I just thought his Suitons were getting overrated when we've barely seen anything from him a Super Soaker couldn't do.





Never comin' back.


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## The World (Jan 16, 2014)

Tobirama slaps Minato across the face and then ends it by folding his arms while giving his deadly pimp glare

Minato bows out like a bitch

flawless victory


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## Ƶero (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato wins. He's been shown to be superior consistently with feats that I'm getting sick of posting. Tobirama was once the fastest and a genius but Minato surpassed him.

Tobirama ultimately died to a group of fodders, whereas Minato was soloing wars and getting 'flee on sight' commands.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato should still win.

Suitons and surprise oral projectiles don't make up for the lapse in reactions, which Minato is still superior in. As stated earlier in the thread, his FTG variant is instantly more effective than Tobirama's as he carries more than 10 pre-tagged kunai at one time, compared to Tobirama's 0 canonically.

Now, he can create bunshins which are essentially moving tags (as FTG can be utilized through chakra not just seals), but that still won't help him against the number of kunai Minato can spread in an instant. 

He was reacted to by SM Madara after a blindside attempt, and disarmed before reacting. SM Madara couldn't react to Matatabi and several subsequent attacks by Bijuus, after he previously reacted to BM Naruto with Mokuton variants as an Edo. Gaara visually reacted to his shunshin [1] and outright blitzed him with Futon Sand Bullets. BSM Naruto outright blitzed him [2]. To me, that suggests SM barely inflated his speed. Tobirama was off-paneled effortlessly by this version of Madara who managed to defeat him with chakra rod CQC attacks even whilst Tobirama had a tagged weapon, access to his suitons and clones.

I believe Minato would have fared better against that version of Madara than Tobirama did. 

Of course, Madara and Tobirama confirmed that he and Hashirama were brought back weakened, along with Madara, so a full strength Tobirama may be able to beat Minato. Unfortunately, we'll never know.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2014)

minato wins a long drawn out battle. which would be quite cool to watch and the fastest ninja battle ever. 
please note minato being able to spread 30 tags is about as haxx and tobirama fighting with 3 clones or more. each moving to a location with tagged kunai's and swapping with each other via hirashin. tobirama can ready an attack like sasuke and naruto did and have minato run into it via clone swapping because no doubt both of them will tag each other. 

so toughest match there is out there. but minato should take it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato babyshakes.


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## Magicbullet (Jan 16, 2014)

I'd say Tobirama since it's base Minato.


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## Kyu (Jan 16, 2014)

Suiton aren't going to accomplish anything offensively for Tobirama, as Minato can warp the attack or himself elsewhere. 

Minato being the faster of the two will have the upper-hand if they ever decide to go head to head via shunshin. His Hiraishin also seems to have far better mobility and range with marked kunai at his disposal. If the battle dragged on long enough, I would say Tobirama outlasts him being a Senju and all that, but Minato has some pretty decent stamina feats despite the nickname(). 

Mr. Colgate's use of Hiraishin ultimately appears to be more convenient for evasion and deceptive onslaughts. 

Minato surpassed his predecessor in the art of FTG, he wins more times than not.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 16, 2014)

Going with Tobirama here. With core fighting style being this similar I am siding with one holding significant advantage in stamina. Minato is a tad faster in physical speed but with both parties having Hiraishin the difference in normal movement doesn't matter. Reflexes are roughly even considering their respected feats against Obito. Minato's preped Kunais allows initial mobility advantage but again - with both parties having the same jutsu and being able to to tag everything via touch that advantage is negligible. 

ET Torune is actually pretty good here - with Minato lacking knowledge on him. Gojo Kibakufuda would force some heavy Hiraishin usage from Yondaime while seemingly being chakra-free for Nidaime(or at least not being noticeable for Senju's stamina). 

Tobirama looked a bit smarter to me. And being original Hiraishin-inventor and overall better ninjutsu-scientist makes me think that he knows this battle's main jutsus better. I mean - he created bot Hiraishin and Kagebunshin from scratch. _Everything _about those techs is known to him. 

Minato still got Bunta and Shiki Fujin though. With latter being effective due to Shinigami's invisibility, range and lack of knowledge on ranged usage. But it would still be a draw and Tobirama having knowledge from Hiruzen's battle can spam KBs the moment Minato starts with them hand signs.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato wins. U_U
Minato has faster FTG and a better reaction speed as well as better shunshin.

*Spoiler*: __ 









From the last chapter we saw the different in speed clearly between the two of them
*Spoiler*: __ 








Minato with a superior reaction and faster shunshin than madara won't have and problem of dodging that. On the other hand Tobirama's inferior shunshin and FTG won't be able to save tobirama from Minato's counter attack. 

Tobirama has shown 1 Kunai so far, on the other hand Minato use tons of them, which Tobirama acknowledge that Minato's is super fast at striking as well.
*Spoiler*: __ 










FTG is what the rely on the most, Minato is the superior one with that, so it should be obvious who will win. 

Minato's Rasengan > Tobirama's water Dragon, from feats and rank. 
Minato's S/T barrier > Tobirama's Water Wall.
Minato's contract seal > Tobirama's ET 
Minato's raper death > Tobirama's explosion tags. 
Minato's Food Cart Destroyer Technique > Tobirama's Water Severing Wave

The both have clones, 4 suns barrier, finger sensing. However, 

Minato still has:
1- frog summoning, (which they have SM and other jutsus)
2- Hakke no Fūin Shiki 
3- Shishō Fūin 
4- Transfer chakra. 
5- Rasen-Flash Super-Circle Dance Howl Stage Three 

Tobirama has:
1-  Chakra Sensing Technique 

That's in term of feats, and jutsus. However, Tobirama is done for, but Minato is still fighting, it's
true that Kishi nerfed him the most, but at least we know he has that jutsu of his.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> Minato wins. U_U
> Minato has faster FTG and a better reaction speed as well as better shunshin.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I agree that Minato wins but that Madara - Obito comparison was just terrible.

I'd reckon Madara is much more skilled, faster and outright better Shinobi than Kid Obito. 

And the adult Obito who had Minato's tag on him also had a huge hole on his chest and was in no condition to defend himself from anything.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Minato wins but that Madara - Obito comparison was just terrible.
> 
> I'd reckon Madara is much more skilled, faster and outright better Shinobi than Kid Obito.
> 
> And the adult Obito who had Minato's tag on him also had a huge hole on his chest and was in no condition to defend himself from anything.



Give me one feat for madara that is better or faster than obito. Also, obito's Kamui did not chamge
as kid or adult, if you have statement or feat shows otherwise bring it on. 

He did not even have a  chance, otherwise madara will try to defend him as he did against Sasuke's enton with the black rods.


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 16, 2014)

Its hard to tell cause we dont know Tobiramas real strength


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> Give me one feat for madara that is better or faster than obito. Also, obito's Kamui did not chamge
> as kid or adult, if you have statement or feat shows otherwise bring it on.



I can show you tons of feats of Madara that are better than Pre Izanagi Obito's. Like Off paneling Gokage. 

Or physical feats that far exceeds Obito's.

As for speed, I wasn't referring to Obito's kamui speed but his physical and reaction speed.



> He did not even have a  chance, otherwise madara will try to defend him as he did against Sasuke's enton with the black rods.



How do you compare an enton arrow shot from a distance to Minato teleporting on a pre set mark ? 

How do you compare Edo Madara(who was stated to be weaker) to Living Madara with sage sensing ? 

I don't think any of your comparisons work here.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;49525698]I can show you tons of feats of Madara that are better than Pre Izanagi Obito's. Like Off paneling Gokage.



lol, off-panel is off-panel, we don't know his feats of we don't see it. Also, madara used PS
to defeat the Gokage. 


> Or physical feats that far exceeds Obito's.
> As for speed, I wasn't referring to Obito's kamui speed but his physical and reaction speed.


Obito's feats in that matter comes from Kamui, which is FAR exceeds Madara's reaction or
speed. Minato defeated that TWO times. 



> How do you compare an enton arrow shot from a distance to Minato teleporting on a pre set mark ?


Exactly. 


> How do you compare Edo Madara(who was stated to be weaker) to Living Madara with sage sensing ?



1- Living madara is stronger only because he has real rinngan and SM, everything else is just
as powerful, as stated by madara himself when he said he used his FULL power. 

2- Madara has sensing ability sense the begging, and that's how he sensed Hashi's chakra
with that stupid face of his.  





> I don't think any of your comparisons work here.



Take this question,

you said Minato teleported to his seal on obito. How did Tobirama teleport to madara? ck


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## Baroxio (Jan 16, 2014)

One more tidbit to add, but Tobirama was able to land explosive notes on the much faster Juubito without it noticing. In other words, Minato's incredibly likely to lose a limb when fighting Tobirama, slightly higher speed or not.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> One more tidbit to add, but Tobirama was able to land explosive notes *on the much faster Juubito *without it noticing. In other words, Minato's incredibly likely to lose a limb when fighting Tobirama, slightly higher speed or not.



reading that made my IQ decline. 

Edit:
that's if you compared that obito to v2 obito.

If you meant to compare him to Minato.
1- That obito was mindless to begin with. 
2- Minato is faster.


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 16, 2014)

i thinks that even edo  tobirama wood beats base minato

and if ur gonna use living tobirama give him a free edo cause his edospolsion is really powaful


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> lol, off-panel is off-panel, we don't know his feats of we don't see it. Also, madara used PS
> to defeat the Gokage.


I don't think Pre-Izanagi Obito can off panel Gokage.



> Obito's feats in that matter comes from Kamui, which is FAR exceeds Madara's reaction or
> speed. Minato defeated that TWO times.


I think you didn't understand me.
I am talking about physical movement and reaction speed.
Kamui is teleportation.



> Exactly.


The attack wasn't performed on Madara, and the speed of the black rods are only fast enough to intercept an enton arrow from distance, not fast enough to intercept something that instantly appears point blank. Even if Madara could react to that, black rods weren't a viable defense. Madara also didn't have sage sensing, so the comparison kind of falls flat.




> 1- Living madara is stronger only because he has real rinngan and SM, everything else is just
> as powerful, as stated by madara himself when he said he used his FULL power.


If he had used his full power, how can living Madara be stronger than his full power ? 

The moment Madara became living, his movements changed as noted by Hashirama before Madara even used anything Rinnegan related.

Also SM sensing is a big deal when it comes to CQC and blindside attacks. It is not something you can discard or pretend like it doesn't exist.




> 2- Madara has sensing ability sense the begging, and that's how he sensed Hashi's chakra
> with that stupid face of his.


I'd say sage sensing is superior but thats probably just me 



> Take this question,
> 
> you said Minato teleported to his seal on obito. How did Tobirama teleport to madara? ck



I have no idea, he might have thrown a marked kunai and teleported to the vicinity.

Irrelevant question though.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)

Tobirama defeats Minato. Anyone serious about this knows that Tobirama is superior. 

*Offense*

Tobirama has better offense. Minato can summon toads and use rasengan. However, neither of those tools is effective against edo tensei or hiraishin. However, while Tobirama's suitons won't be effective, his mutually exploding tags will definitely be effective. Just to be clear, Tobirama was able to put exploding tags on Jyuubito before he realized and Jyuubito is faster than Minato. Furthermore, without knowledge on Torune, Minato will attempt to use his contract seal to stop edo tensei control. When he does, he simply dies. 

*Defense*

Both of them rely on primarily on hiraishin for defensive purposes. Hiraishin is hiraishin is hiraishin. However, we do know that Minato is slightly faster than Tobirama while canonically Tobirama has better reaction feats than him. Now, base Minato is restricted to one KB while Tobirama can use more KB. This gives him an advantage has he can use hiraishin mawashi goshun to nullifies Minato's slight superiority in speed. Given the fact that he is a sensor, he would know the minute Minato tried to blindside him and switch places with a clone or preferably with Torune. Again, if Minato so much as touches Torune, he is done. 

Taking all of this into consideration and the fact that Tobirama is superior to Minato in intelligence, edo tensei and tajuu kage bunshin put him above Minato. All Tobirama has to do is make sure that Minato touches Torune to defeat him. The best way for him to do this is through hiraishin mawashi goshun. Minato on the other hand has zero way of dealing with edo tensei that does not involve touching it and no way of actually hitting Tobirama when the man can use tajuu kage bunshin and hiraishin to summon himself out of danger as he did for the fodder ninjas


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## Baroxio (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> reading that made my IQ decline.
> 
> Edit:
> that's if you compared that obito to v2 obito.
> ...


Are you seriously claiming that Jubbito isn't faster than Base Minato?


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 16, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I say that the winner more times depends on who can outlast who.



Came in to say this. Neither of them are going to outright overpower the other. Minato has some pretty high Chakra reserves, but so does Tobirama. Maybe with Edo Torune I'd favor Tobirama because he can save some Chakra by sending him to fight with the whole infinite explosion thing.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

> =Grimmjowsensei;49527079]I don't think Pre-Izanagi Obito can off panel Gokage.


It does not matter since we are talking about speed, not power. He may not be able to off-panel
them, but they won't b able to defeat him either. 


> I think you didn't understand me.
> I am talking about physical movement and reaction speed.
> Kamui is teleportation.



I know, what I meant is obito always used his Kamui to dodge or attack, so even if his physical
speed is lesser than that of madara, it does not really matter. As for reaction, I think obito is
better here because Kamui is not automatically activated, he must react to activate his jutsu. 


> The attack wasn't performed on Madara, and the speed of the black rods are only fast enough to intercept an enton arrow from distance, not fast enough to intercept something that instantly appears point blank. Even if Madara could react to that, black rods weren't a viable defense. Madara also didn't have sage sensing, so the comparison kind of falls flat.



O.K fair enough I suppose. 


> If he had used his full power, how can living Madara be stronger than his full power ?
> 
> The moment Madara became living, his movements changed as noted by Hashirama before Madara even used anything Rinnegan related.
> 
> Also SM sensing is a big deal when it comes to CQC and blindside attacks. It is not something you can discard or pretend like it doesn't exist.



Hashirama was wrong? Because the Edo used for him is different. Also, I think madara knows
his power better than Hashi, no? 

I don't see how SM sensing will change anything if the guy is a sensor honestly.  



> I'd say sage sensing is superior but thats probably just me


yeah, I think it's only you because I far as I remember the manga did not point out or showed
any different whatsoever, no?  



> I have no idea, he might have thrown a marked kunai and teleported to the vicinity.
> 
> Irrelevant question though.


His Kunai was with him when he first appeared

it's not irrelevant because it's a possibility that Tobirama had a mark on Madara, but when he
teleported to attack him there was a sall window for madara to react to it. However, when Minato
teleported to obito there was no window to react. 
far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone


Baroxio said:


> Are you seriously claiming that Jubbito isn't faster than Base Minato?



Yeah.  
obito have to travel distance (so to speak)
far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
Minato does not.  

I find it amusing though when people claim that you can't be faster than instant for the sake of
Tobirama not being slower than Minato (even though he admitted that) then all of sudden and at
the same time you can be faster than instant when it comes to obito and Minato. 

Perhaps Jubbito freezes the time from his speed?


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

> =Senjuclan;49527603]Tobirama defeats Minato. Anyone serious about this knows that Tobirama is superior.



except Tobirama disagree with them. 


> *Offense*
> 
> Tobirama has better offense. Minato can summon toads and use rasengan. However, neither of those tools is effective against edo tensei or hiraishin. However, while Tobirama's suitons won't be effective, his mutually exploding tags will definitely be effective. Just to be clear, Tobirama was able to put exploding tags on Jyuubito before he realized and Jyuubito is faster than Minato. Furthermore, without knowledge on Torune, Minato will attempt to use his contract seal to stop edo tensei control. When he does, he simply dies.



lol, BS, Minato can get ride of the explosion tags as when obito did put them on baby Naruto. 
Also, implying the ET fodders will have a greater reaction than Minato. lol 


> *Defense*
> 
> Both of them rely on primarily on hiraishin for defensive purposes. Hiraishin is hiraishin is hiraishin. However, we do know that Minato is slightly faster than Tobirama while canonically Tobirama has better reaction feats than him. Now, base Minato is restricted to one KB while Tobirama can use more KB. This gives him an advantage has he can use hiraishin mawashi goshun to nullifies Minato's slight superiority in speed. Given the fact that he is a sensor, he would know the minute Minato tried to blindside him and switch places with a clone or preferably with Torune. Again, if Minato so much as touches Torune, he is done.


Lol, Tobirama does not have better reaction speed than Minato at all. Nice fanfction bro, but
unlike Tobirama there is no window when Minato attacks. 



> Taking all of this into consideration and the fact that Tobirama is superior to Minato in intelligence, edo tensei and tajuu kage bunshin put him above Minato. All Tobirama has to do is make sure that Minato touches Torune to defeat him. The best way for him to do this is through hiraishin mawashi goshun. Minato on the other hand has zero way of dealing with edo tensei that does not involve touching it and no way of actually hitting Tobirama when the man can use tajuu kage bunshin and hiraishin to summon himself out of danger as he did for the fodder ninjas



Just because Tobirama invented jutsus that does not make him more intelligent. 

- Lol, nice fanfiction indeed. :rofl


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## Veracity (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> Minato wins. U_U
> Minato has faster FTG and a better reaction speed as well as better shunshin.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Here we go again Elia. Let's have some fun.

There ya go again using manga statements to prove your stuff. Maybe you should actually prove some feats instead of letting characters talk you into everything you believe. There are multiple examples of such that are absolutely wrong.

- Jirayia saying he could take Itachi and Kisame though his Equal( Oro) was one paneled by Itachi.

- All the hype Hiruzen gets. Point blank period.

- Kishi having ALL the Sannin being Completley equal, with SM and Edo in mind.

- Kimmi stated to be "unbeatable" by Kabuto when Kabuto has wintessed the power of the Sannin and Edo Oro.

- Kimmi stated to be on the level of Hebi Sasuke, when in reality even as an Edo he hasn't displayed feats even close to that.

Yeah character statements aren't the best things to go from Elia. They have been proven wrong several of times , and feats are a million times more accurate. 

I have a clear and cut feat that base Minato could not replicate in a million billion years; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone

Tobirama could shunshin before KCM Minato would move his arm I mean really ? You cannot even come at me seriously and say that Tobirama has an inferior shunshin to BASE Minato when he could react faster then KCM Minato. And we both know the speed difference between Base and KCM. 

Not even to mention that we have a direct contradiction in one if Tobiramas statements. Him saying that Minato has a more advanced version of shunshin( V2) then Tobirama turning around and using Lvl 2 in the latest chapter. Which is also an argument that you could not prove. I directly told you it was as easy as placing a seal on a Kunai, but of course you underate the crap out of Tobirama. 

Landing an attack on an immobilized Obito and a 16 year old Obito isn't even close to as impressive as almost landing an attack on a Rinnegan - EMS - Sage sencing Madara. He is the final villain, and he is heavily protected by plot shield btw. 

But because you insist, let me prove why Madara is heavily superior to those versions of Obito:

Tobirama was able to Completley catch Lvl 2 Juubito( the one that blitzed KCM Minato ) of guard TWICE using his FTG; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone

I know you are smart enough to know that Juubito > 16 year old Obito in Reactions. Furthermore, if Tobirama with a faster FTG technique wasn't able to land an attack on Madara, then we can accept the notion was better reactions then any version of Obito. That's all.

Also to mention that Minato's FTG cannot be faster then Tobiramas. It's an instantaneous attack Elia. It basically comes down to arm speed. Which Tobirama is superior to base Mianto likewise ; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone


True Tobirama does have one pre set Kunai, but it's just a matter of touching said Kunai once. With a superior shunshin, Kage Bunshin, Edo FTG, and basic FTG, he should be able to not get hit and easily tag multiple Kunai. Simple as that.

We have a single Suiton feats from Tobirama. We have been over this already, his Suiton should be easily scaled to this level ; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
And I've prone it already. So with suit on like that, he can easily pressure Minato.

Tobirama and Minato also both have ST barrier.

Explain to me what contract seal is going to do ? Even if he did land said Justu, FTG guarantees that the Edo won't get hit.

Reaper ends in a draw.


Food cart can only be used on slow targets, and will just waste chakra against a speedster like Tobirama. 

SM toads are restricted btw. I don't feel like arguing against frog song and how Minato can most likely not summon the elder toads.

Minato has chakra transfer as a Jin not a human. And that Featless Justu should not be used here.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 16, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> One more tidbit to add, but Tobirama was able to land explosive notes on the much faster Juubito without it noticing. In other words, Minato's incredibly likely to lose a limb when fighting Tobirama, slightly higher speed or not.




Yet he couldn't place them on Madara, a man Jubito would paste up close, without getting offed in seconds.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

OMG. 
why people love to write too much. 


> =Likes boss;49528821]Here we go again Elia. Let's have some fun.
> 
> There ya go again using manga statements to prove your stuff. Maybe you should actually prove some feats instead of letting characters talk you into everything you believe. There are multiple examples of such that are absolutely wrong.



Statements (in context) > our opinions. 


> - Jirayia saying he could take Itachi and Kisame though his Equal( Oro) was one paneled by Itachi.


A>B>C logic. 





> - All the hype Hiruzen gets. Point blank period.


We have never seen him at full power in his prime. Therefore, that's can't be proven wrong. 


> - Kishi having ALL the Sannin being Completley equal, with SM and Edo in mind.


so?


> - Kimmi stated to be "unbeatable" by Kabuto when Kabuto has wintessed the power of the Sannin and Edo Oro.


I don't remember that, but yes, when it comes to these words "unbeatable" "Invincible",,,etc
they are always exaggeration. 





> - Kimmi stated to be on the level of Hebi Sasuke, when in reality even as an Edo he hasn't displayed feats even close to that.


When was this stated? Also, I really don't see how Hebi Sasuke can win against him without
Kirin to be honest. 


> Yeah character statements aren't the best things to go from Elia. They have been proven wrong several of times , and feats are a million times more accurate.


Some have been proving wrong, some have not. 


> I have a clear and cut feat that base Minato could not replicate in a million billion years; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone


Yeah, and I have feats that Hiruzen is = Tobirama's speed. Hiruzen's > reaction.
far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone



> Tobirama could shunshin before KCM Minato would move his arm I mean really ? You cannot even come at me seriously and say that Tobirama has an inferior shunshin to BASE Minato when he could react faster then KCM Minato. And we both know the speed difference between Base and KCM.


Minato arrived to the battlefield, put the Kunais in there places, have a conversation with Naruto
and Sakura, before Tobirama even arrived. 

So I guess Base Minato > Hiruzen > Tobirama > KCM Minato. 


> Not even to mention that we have a direct contradiction in one if Tobiramas statements. Him saying that Minato has a more advanced version of shunshin( V2) then Tobirama turning around and using Lvl 2 in the latest chapter. Which is also an argument that you could not prove. I directly told you it was as easy as placing a seal on a Kunai, but of course you underate the crap out of Tobirama.



1- lol, Tobirama did not have that at first, he took the idea from Minato.
2- He meant in speed, and that was proven in the last chapter because the different in speed. 
3- Well, he has feats now from the manga, before he did not. 


> Landing an attack on an immobilized Obito and a 16 year old Obito isn't even close to as impressive as almost landing an attack on a Rinnegan - EMS - Sage sencing Madara. He is the final villain, and he is heavily protected by plot shield btw.



lol, as if "Almost" is impressive or anything, it's either you do it or not. He did NOT. 
Also, landing an attack on obito is more impressive actually, I mean seriously even the Bijuus
all attacked madara, I guess they are all faster than Tobirama, even Gaara is faster than he is
according to you logic. :rofl



> But because you insist, let me prove why Madara is heavily superior to those versions of Obito:
> Tobirama was able to Completley catch Lvl 2 Juubito( the one that blitzed KCM Minato ) of guard TWICE using his FTG; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
> far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
> 
> I know you are smart enough to know that Juubito > 16 year old Obito in Reactions. Furthermore, if Tobirama with a faster FTG technique wasn't able to land an attack on Madara, then we can accept the notion was better reactions then any version of Obito. That's all.



lol, OK. let me use your logic 
Obito was able to dodge BM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B. 

madara was beating up by every single Bijuu. 

Obito was able to dodge A and Onoki's jinton, Madara was not. 


> Also to mention that Minato's FTG cannot be faster then Tobiramas. It's an instantaneous attack Elia. It basically comes down to arm speed. Which Tobirama is superior to base Mianto likewise ; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone






> True Tobirama does have one pre set Kunai, but it's just a matter of touching said Kunai once. With a superior shunshin, Kage Bunshin, Edo FTG, and basic FTG, he should be able to not get hit and easily tag multiple Kunai. Simple as that.



His FTG, shunshin, and reaction are all inferior. ET need people to use it. 


> We have a single Suiton feats from Tobirama. We have been over this already, his Suiton should be easily scaled to this level ; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone
> And I've prone it already. So with suit on like that, he can easily pressure Minato.


Dude, please bring me feats from him, not what YOU think should have been. 
O.K look at this.


Minato > Jubito because he should have been able to attack him! 


> Tobirama and Minato also both have ST barrier.



Manga scan? 


> Explain to me what contract seal is going to do ? Even if he did land said Justu, FTG guarantees that the Edo won't get hit.



Take Tobirama's control over the ET, and thus Tobirama will lose 2 of his strongest jutsus,
ET and explosion tags. 


> Reaper ends in a draw.


It does not matter, that means Tobirama can't win in any case. 


> Food cart can only be used on slow targets, and will just waste chakra against a speedster like Tobirama.


It was used against Kurama even though he's super fast according to SM Naruto. U_U


> SM toads are restricted btw. I don't feel like arguing against frog song and how Minato can most likely not summon the elder toads.


1- I was talking in general.
2- Kishi & DB3 stated that they can summon any frog, especially that PA & Ma know Minato. 


> Minato has chakra transfer as a Jin not a human. And that Featless Justu should not be used here.



WTH? 
Minato used that jutsu to transfer his and Kusina's chakra to Naruto as stated by Kurama.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yet he couldn't place them on Madara, a man Jubito would paste up close, without getting offed in seconds.



Well, I guess SM Madara just has better reaction timing.  I mean, he was able to react to the same FTG shenanigans that Juubito didn't at first.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 16, 2014)

Tobirama cannot beat minato in a battle of speed going off their respective feats...the latest chapter made it even more apparent.

If you get owned in 1.5 seconds with chakra rods against a man who is way slower than V2 juubito then you will not handle minato who can make a FTG battlefield in a instant(and also reacted to juubito enough to not get killed).

Of course tobirama could tag a faster opponent if he lets them hit him and take that opportunity. But i do not think it is worth getting his head split in two pieces. Tobirama would need to be the defensive all the time to keep up with minato anyway.

Tobirama's suiton's does not  even have feats to make a STB needed so those are practically worthless as minato does not use fire style. Edo torune is worthless(i mean seriously) and his explosive tag jutsu can be used against him by minato if he is careless. Tobirama's only chance is out-lasting but the match should be long over before it goes into that territory.

Minato mid-high to maybe high diff.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)

I will treat you as you a serious debater even though you are not one, in the hope that you would engage me on facts



Elia said:


> except Tobirama disagree with them.



Tobirama has inferior shunshin, however, my argument is that he is a superior ninja. I hope you know the difference. 



Elia said:


> lol, BS, Minato can get ride of the explosion tags as when obito did put them on baby Naruto.
> Also, implying the ET fodders will have a greater reaction than Minato.



1. For one to rid one self of explosions, one has to know that he has them on oneself first. Jyuubito did not even notice them. How will Minato?
2. Reactions do not matter. Minato does not have knowledge. Torune has bugs on him, he does not have to activate anything. The minute Minato touches him, he will be infected. His reaction speed becomes moot



Elia said:


> Lol, Tobirama does not have better reaction speed than Minato at all. Nice fanfction bro, but
> unlike Tobirama there is no window when Minato attacks.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If you get owned in 1.5 seconds with chakra rods against a man who is way slower than V2 juubito then you will not handle minato who can make a FTG battlefield in a instant(and also reacted to juubito enough to not get killed).



Care to explain how you came to the conclusion that Madara is way slower than Jyuubito?


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 16, 2014)

Revived Madara is one of the fastest characters in the manga , he might not be as fast as Juubito but he's very close in speed, I would still give it to Minato more often than not though but its closer than I thought before , he would definitely need shika fujin to pull out the victory.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 16, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Care to explain how you came to the conclusion that Madara is way slower than Jyuubito?



Madara can blitz SM naruto i will give him that but he also got outdid by sasuke in CQC. Naruto and sasuke together could not tag obito for extended periods of time were even complaining about his flight speed(naruto was in BSM and sasuke was amped by senjutsu to boot).

A guy using SM on it's lonesome will not be faster than juubi jin c'mon.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Revived Madara is one of the fastest characters in the manga , he might not be as fast as Juubito but he's very close in speed, I would still give it to Minato more often than not though but its closer than I thought before , he would definitely need shika fujin to pull out the victory.



How would Minato actually win? Tobirama's reflexes are such that he was able to put tags on Jyuubito who is faster than Minato. So, that begs the question how does Minato win? By being slightly faster than Tobirama? How does Tobirama not use kage bunshin to nullify the speed difference? How does Minato get rid of edo tensei? It stands to reason that he would use his contract seal. However, doing so means he touches Torune and without knowledge, that means he will be infected. 

Seriously, Torune as an edo tensei spells trouble for Minato because Tobirama only has to make sure that Minato touches him to win. He can accomplish this either by having him attack Minato directly or by using hiraishin mawashi goshun.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Madara can blitz SM naruto i will give him that but he also got outdid by sasuke in CQC. Naruto and sasuke together could not tag obito for extended periods of time were even complaining about his flight speed(naruto was in BSM and sasuke was amped by senjutsu to boot).



When did Madara get "outdid" by Sasuke? When Sasuke attacked him and he stood there to have Sasuke impale him? 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> A guy using SM on it's lonesome will not be faster than juubi jin c'mon.



So, you have no proof to say that Madara is slower than Jyuubito, right? 

Plus, this argument is asinine. Is a guy using SM on its lonesome strong enough to cause damage to the indestructible jyuubi jin? YES! See, that logic is simply shortsided. Being Jyuubi jin does not make you automatically superior in speed to every person using sage mode just like it does not make you stronger


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## Krippy (Jan 16, 2014)

Could go either way.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

> =Senjuclan;49529629]I will treat you as you a serious debater even though you are not one, in the hope that you would engage me on facts






> Tobirama has inferior shunshin, however, my argument is that he is a superior ninja. I hope you know the difference.



Tobirama's shunshin:
Naruto begs to differ.
Naruto begs to differ.
Naruto begs to differ.
Naruto begs to differ.

and, no, he is not overall superior by hype, feats, and portrayal. 


> 1. For one to rid one self of explosions, one has to know that he has them on oneself first. Jyuubito did not even notice them. How will Minato?
> 2. Reactions do not matter. Minato does not have knowledge. Torune has bugs on him, he does not have to activate anything. The minute Minato touches him, he will be infected. His reaction speed becomes moot



1- Obito was mindless, Minato is not. 
2- 


> Knowledge: Manga



Minato saw the jutsu = Minato has knowledge. Also, since Tobirama's ET is weaker than Oro's ET in part one, so that means Torune is even less than a fodder and not necessary that he has
all his jutsus, just like Tobirama & Hashirama did not have all their jutsus with stronger version of ET. 



> How did Kirabi put a kunai at Minato's gut?


1- He put his hand before Minato teleport to him.
2- Minato did not want to kill him. 



> No intelligence takes into consideration multiple factors of which ingenuity is but one. Tobirama is by far more ingenious as demonstrated by his ability to create ninjutsu. However, he also has better battle tactics as demonstrated when he was able to deduce things before Minato did and he has superior knowledge as demonstrated by the fact that he knew why Minato's arm was not regrowing while Minato was oblivous to the fact.



1- Minato used FTG in even greater strategy, that Tobirama took his idea in the last chapter. 
2- Minato create some jutsus out of original jutsu and modified the original one. 

3- you just ignored the whole situation. Minato was getting emotional by the fact that he was
fighting his own student, so that does not prove anything for Tobirama since Minato's mind was
not clear. Unless you think Naruto is smarter than both because he noticed that before Tobirama as well, and took the time to enter SM while Minato was talking with obito!

4- poor excuse. ET is Tobirama's jutsu, how is knowing about his jutsu make him smarter? 

5- What about that Minato wanted to teleport the whole tree with the TBBS while Tobirama only
thought of taking them 1 by 1? Or the fact that Minato came up with the Kunai stuff to modify 
FTG, but Tobirama couldn't think of such a thing? 


> Now, when one takes everything into consideration, Minato does not have a way to get rid of Torune without touching him. Plus, he does not have a way of hurting Tobirama that he can't use kage bunshin feint or hiraishin to save himself from. On the other hand, Tobirama has a sure fire way of defeating Minato by simply having him touch Torune.



1- So, since ET torune is weaker than the real deal I think when he was alive he was also stronger than Minato. And you speak about logic? 

OP





> Location: Konoha Crater
> Knowledge: Manga
> Mindset: IC
> Distance: 40m
> Reatrictions: Elder Toads.



1- there is no such thing like he can't use any clone or only 1, you lied to me I guess? Or was it
just ignorance? 

2- yeah, great, torune will defeat Minato, such a joke.


----------



## Prog (Jan 16, 2014)

Can Tobirama do S/T Barrier? Some might say it's impossible but remember when they said Tobirama couldn't do FTG lvl 2?


----------



## Tapion (Jan 16, 2014)

Isn't tobirama a sensor? He could counter minato the way madara did him.


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## Coppur (Jan 16, 2014)

Prog said:


> Can Tobirama do S/T Barrier? Some might say it's impossible but remember when they said Tobirama couldn't do FTG lvl 2?



It seems like he does, Tobirama even reference being able to teleport the Bijuu-dama, however, it won't seem to matter in this fight. Minato's jutsu are mainly CQC, which makes the S/T barrier irrelevant. The only way it could be useful is defending from some of the jutsu Minato's summons can produce.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

Prog said:


> Can Tobirama do S/T Barrier? Some might say it's impossible but remember when they said Tobirama couldn't do FTG lvl 2?



As of now, no. U_U
people might say he wanted to teleport the TBB, but he clearly said "FTG" I am not sure from
where they read the extra "barrier" word, perhaps another translation or they came up with it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 16, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> When did Madara get "outdid" by Sasuke? When Sasuke attacked him and he stood there to have Sasuke impale him?



He did not just "stand there" lol. Getting hit and then complementing sasuke EMS clarity when it comes to reading people(not to mention his fluid movements) shows madara just got the short end of the stick in that exchange.





> So, you have no proof to say that Madara is slower than Jyuubito, right?


Running circles around a BSM naruto and EMS senjutsu infused sasuke is better than madara's feats. No way i am gonna say he's the fastest just because he's the main villain right now.



> Plus, this argument is asinine. Is a guy using SM on its lonesome strong enough to cause damage to the indestructible jyuubi jin? YES! See, that logic is simply shortsided.


Juubi jin is not indestructible by any means. But yes a SM user on his lonesome can cause damage to the a jin. Doing so however is a different ballgame.



> Being Jyuubi jin does not make you automatically superior in speed to every person using sage mode just like it does not make you stronger



It might as well seeing how juubi jin obito got better speed feats than SM hashirama, SM madara, SM naruto and SM kabuto. Show me those guys dancing around 2 top tiers casually. Juubito hit minato in their first exchange giving him no time to get away clean despite a warp. Madara tried to strike tobirama and tobirama warped away free of harm on that first exchange.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 16, 2014)

Starraver said:


> Isn't tobirama a sensor? He could counter minato the way madara did him.



I would say a guy who was a sensor gaining SM danger sensing is better than a guy with just sensing.

Plus minato can tag the entire battlefield in one arm swing. If tobirama hypothetical slides out the way and try to disarm his attacker like minato did that's a surefire opening to get bashed with a rasengan from another angle. Tobirama cannot afford to make openings for a man who can react to V2 A without taking damage and outspeed other S/T ninjutsu(kamui).


----------



## Veracity (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> OMG.
> why people love to write too much.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't like writing a lot but if it proves points then yeah.

Not with the statement is directly contradicted. Same with DB stats. They are directly contradicted time and time again.

Doesn't matter. 50 Hirzuens together would still lose to BM Minato and SM Hashirama. He didn't get 50 times weaker due to age Elia, when the Sannin are only 10 years younger then him and fight perfectly fine. Same with Onoki.

You think Tsunade can beat SM Jirayia ?

Wait so we aren't allowed to use the fact that Zetsu said Itachi is invincible but we can use the exaggeration that Tobirama said ? That's a contradiction. 

Jugo directly compared them. Kimmi cannot even trace Hebi Sasukes speed. He gets blitzed and Chidori'd 50 times

Movement speed does not equal Shunshin speed Elia. That's not logical. Same way Lee , Neji, and Tenten all move at the same movement speed. They weren't going all out.

We've been over this. Are you serious ? Tobirama could not get to him due to the massive amounts of trees blocking his way.

That's because Minato had FTG level 2..


That's exactly what I'm saying. The only reason Minato was superior at FTG was because he has lvl 2. Tobirama has level 2 now.

Show me where he meant speed ? And nothing was proven in the last chapter.

So you are saying almost blitzing SSJ 3 Goku wouldn't be impressive ? 

How is it more impressive when we have an EXACT comparison ? Tobirama was able to blitz Juubito twice, but failed with Madara because Madara is more reflexive then Juubito. 

In reality I don't really care lol, that just means they are faster then Tobirama and by extension faster then KCM Minato.

But that isn't the same Madara ? Edo Madara is not Alive Madara + SM . That's Completley false.

Just proves Madara is more reflexive then the people blitzed by Minato. Only use base Minato feats btw.

Yet you can't prove it. And I've prove myself many times already.

How else are we going to scale his Suiton Elia ? He's only used one Suiton Justu while at full power ? An easier way to scale would be to scale Hashirama basically. His part 1 forest; Naruto begs to differ.

His part 2 forest ; Naruto begs to differ. so Tobiramas Justu should increase at that exact same rate.

And actually thank you that scan proves how inconsistent character statements are. Minato saying he could defeat Obito meant that he was stronger right ? 

Naruto begs to differ.


Scan of him being able to do so with a contract seal ?


That means Minato can't win either ? And Tobirama could kill him before that. And he actually has to catch Tobirama first.

Kurama and SM Naruto are far slower then these speedsters.

Scan ?

And what is his chakra transfer gonna do in this battle ? And by Featless I meant his wolf Justu or whatever.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)




----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 16, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He did not just "stand there" lol. Getting hit and then complementing sasuke EMS clarity when it comes to reading people(not to mention his fluid movements) shows madara just got the short end of the stick in that exchange.



Madara did not try to evade Sasuke, just like he did not try to evade the bijuu's attacks. The reason? Because he knew he could regenerate from them. Madara can blitz Sage Mode Naruto,who is faster than Sasuke




blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Running circles around a BSM naruto and EMS senjutsu infused sasuke is better than madara's feats. No way i am gonna say he's the fastest just because he's the main villain right now.



So, in other words you have no proof. What you have shown is that Jyuubito is faster than Sasuke and Naruto



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Juubi jin is not indestructible by any means. But yes a SM user on his lonesome can cause damage to the a jin. Doing so however is a different ballgame.



He is indestructible to anyone using ninjutsu. By sage mode defeats him. So, your argument that sage mode alone cannot put one above the jyuubi jin is invalid



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> It might as well seeing how juubi jin obito got better speed feats than SM hashirama, SM madara, SM naruto and SM kabuto. Show me those guys dancing around 2 top tiers casually. Juubito hit minato in their first exchange giving him no time to get away clean despite a warp. Madara tried to strike tobirama and tobirama warped away free of harm on that first exchange.



Apples and oranges. How his feats compare to those people is irrelevant. you don't have any way of saying that he is faster than Madara.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

> =Likes boss;49530541]I don't like writing a lot but if it proves points then yeah.


I know, but still. T^T 
anyway, next time please quote as parts, so I can know which part that you are talking about. 


> Not with the statement is directly contradicted. Same with DB stats. They are directly contradicted time and time again.


As I said, some of them were proving wrong, some are not. 


> Doesn't matter. 50 Hirzuens together would still lose to BM Minato and SM Hashirama. He didn't get 50 times weaker due to age Elia, when the Sannin are only 10 years younger then him and fight perfectly fine. Same with Onoki.



Some people were saying the same thing about Tobirama and how much of a fodder he is.
But, you don't see them now. I remember some were laughing at me because I stated that Tobirama is stronger than itachi before the Hokages got revived.  


> You think Tsunade can beat SM Jirayia ?


I think they are at the same level in general. Like this

Oro > Jiraiya > Tsunade > Oro (no ET). I really don't see her as weak as some people think.


> Wait so we aren't allowed to use the fact that Zetsu said Itachi is invincible but we can use the exaggeration that Tobirama said ? That's a contradiction.


itachi got defeated, tobirama did not state any exaggeration, Minato already beat his ass in
speed before he stated that. 


> Jugo directly compared them. Kimmi cannot even trace Hebi Sasukes speed. He gets blitzed and Chidori'd 50 times


I don't see that + even Gaara's greet jutsus he used against him did not do that much against
Kimmi. But, anyway, This debate is irrelevant to our subject. 


> Movement speed does not equal Shunshin speed Elia. That's not logical. Same way Lee , Neji, and Tenten all move at the same movement speed. They weren't going all out.



I'm honestly not sure what part you are referring too.  
but, if you are talking about Hiruzen's feats and his shunshin that exceeds Tobirama's


> Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye.




That's how kishi views shunshin. He does not care much about logic anyways. Did you see him
say I need logic to make madara use Susanoo without eyes? Or to put his eye so easily without
any medical treatment? ...etc 

He does not give two shits about logic. As for going all out, they were going to war, Tobirama
even wanted to go ASAP. 


> We've been over this. Are you serious ? Tobirama could not get to him due to the massive amounts of trees blocking his way.



Thee same amount of trees were on Hiruzen's way. So, they were in the same exact situation,
yet Hiruzen did it, and Tobirama did not. 


> That's because Minato had FTG level 2..


mmm, Okey? 



> That's exactly what I'm saying. The only reason Minato was superior at FTG was because he has lvl 2. Tobirama has level 2 now.


yet, Minato can attack directly at the same moment, but Tobirama cannot. 


> Show me where he meant speed ? And nothing was proven in the last chapter.


I already posted the different in speed between them. sydick



> So you are saying almost blitzing SSJ 3 Goku wouldn't be impressive ?


Not really in standers of their level power. 


> How is it more impressive when we have an EXACT comparison ? Tobirama was able to blitz Juubito twice, but failed with Madara because Madara is more reflexive then Juubito.


Nope, sorry. 

1- Link removed
as Tobirama stated, obito did protect himself from that black orb, and he stated how fast he is.

2- Link removed
Obito noticed Tobirama
Link removed
He acknowledge that obito is distracted by what happened in front of him. 

3- For the one with Naruto, Naruto was the one who attacked directly and Tobirama praised him
for his talent 
Link removed

4- When obito put his chakra arms on, Tobirama stated if he teleported himself to obito he'll get
annihilated.

so, there are reasons to why he succeed in some.   


> In reality I don't really care lol, that just means they are faster then Tobirama and by extension faster then KCM Minato.


LOL. 


> But that isn't the same Madara ? Edo Madara is not Alive Madara + SM . That's Completley false


.

I did not mentioned Lee, it was lee who kicked the hell out of Edo madara. However, it was
the Bijuus, Sasuke, and Gaara who hit alive, Rinnegan- SM madara. U_U


> Just proves Madara is more reflexive then the people blitzed by Minato. Only use base Minato feats btw.



Madara couldn't dodge A, who "Almost " got one paneled by Minato. 


> Yet you can't prove it. And I've prove myself many times already.



1- Fan Fiction is not proofs. And I told you, you have to take the situation and everything, or else
all those people including Gaara are faster than Tobirama, and we do know that is not the case.
2- Manga statements are proofs. 


> How else are we going to scale his Suiton Elia ? He's only used one Suiton Justu while at full power ? An easier way to scale would be to scale Hashirama basically. His part 1 forest; Link removed



We can't scale it, unless he gets a statement and/or feats. 
Especially that Tobirama has never been known for his water jutsu honestly. 

it's just like when kakashi stated that Minato does have some elemental jutsu, but do you
see me bring that fact up and say he would do this or that when we don't know even what element does he have? 


> His part 2 forest ; Link removed so Tobiramas Justu should increase at that exact same rate.


honestly, even IF I'm ok with that, so what? it is not even that great of a jutsu to begin with.
Minato does not use fire jutsus or even long rank jutsus.


> And actually thank you that scan proves how inconsistent character statements are. Minato saying he could defeat Obito meant that he was stronger right ?


That's Minato for you, the strongest character.  
We, don't know his what his jutsu is, so I won't debate that.


> Link removed


So? 
Where did he say "S/T barrier" ?
as it was named here
Link removed

I honestly see him stating "I can take only one of them away with the *Hiraishin*"

If you see something else, may you put it inside a square or something? I admitted that my
sight is weak. 


> Scan of him being able to do so with a contract seal ?


Link removed
"pull the nine-tails free from my control" 
It's a seal that seals the contract, and we know that ET has a contract for them
Link removed


> That means Minato can't win either ? And Tobirama could kill him before that. And he actually has to catch Tobirama first.



I honestly view Minato in completely different level honestly. I said the SF as a possibility only.
catching tobirama is not a problem, since Minato did that easily to A who's faster than Tobirama.
You logic support that since he was able to attack madara. (of course that beside manga canon)


> Kurama and SM Naruto are far slower then these speedsters.


perhaps, but I'm just putting in example/ 


> Scan ?




*Spoiler*: __ 











> And what is his chakra transfer gonna do in this battle ? And by Featless I meant his wolf Justu or whatever.



It won't do much here, but again what I meant in that first post is as overall an what each of them
can do or has. It's 1 on 1, so it's more or less useless, but if he has allies it can be useful. For instance, if he gave his frogs part of his chakra, he can teleport them or to them. Or he can give
someone his chakra to make their jutsus stronger like what Tsunade did to Onoki...etc 

anyways, I have a quiz tomorrow, and some other stuff to get them done, so I'm not sure
if I'll reply or not. 

Thank you for your time.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jan 16, 2014)

In my opinion Tobirama is a superior shinobi then Minato

Chakra: Tobirama
Intelligence: Tobirama
Sensing: Tobirama
Reflexes: Tobirama => Minato (sensing helps and has just as impressive feats)
Speed/Taijutsu: Minato
Fuuinjutsu: Minato (Death Reaper + Contract seal) Tobirama hasnt shown any sealing i believe

S/T ninjutsu: Minato > Tobirama due to S/T barrier and kunai(not do to speed )
Minato uses kunai while Tobirama uses swords and clones
Both can place seals on shinobi and surronding environment
Minato can spread his FTG markers out quicker thanks to prepped kunai


Tobiramas display this chapter is just as good as anything Minato has shown thus far. I would be talking jutsu wise not accomplishments. Tobirama was facing juubito and cheat code haxxed Madara while Minato was dealing with weaker opponents


----------



## Veracity (Jan 16, 2014)

Elia said:


> I know, but still. T^T
> anyway, next time please quote as parts, so I can know which part that you are talking about.
> 
> As I said, some of them were proving wrong, some are not.
> ...



Donno how to on iphone.

This one is wrong though , and can be specifically contradicted.

I guess but Tobirama was never hyped to be above or one the level of Madara and Hashirama like Hirzuen is. I mean Hiruzen is hyped to be well above Minato, but feats say otherwise.

Can't really argue against this. All the Senju are my favorite characters.

Itachi was defeated by his illness and chakra drain. It's also important to note that shunshin is known as FTG. And at the time Minato was superior at FTG; 

I'm talking about Hirzuen and the Kage arriving at the seen at the same time. This is because they were merely using movement speed not shunshin. Same way Tenten and Lee travel at the same speed without Lee actually going all out and using his top speed.

Not sure how any of that is relevant ?

They did not. The trees were only blcoking Minato and Tobirama way. Doesn't matter anyway, as that would be a matter of power not speed.

One was against an immobilized Obito and the other was against a 16 year old Obito. Also one was KCM Minato this is base Minato. Proves nothing.

SSJ. Is absolutely light years above their speed level. ALMOST blitzing him would be faster then anything anybody in the Naruto verse could do.

1. Obitos black Justu moves faster then his body. You also have to take into consideration that move wasn't FTG Slash. Tobirama had to use something slower and heavy then a Kunai.

2. Of course Obito is going to notice someone that teleports behind him and does nothing? 

3. If anything, that proves that Naruto has a faster arm swing then anybody here, or his Resegnan just tore through the black shield.

4. Well of course ? You can't just blitz Obito a million times without him catching on.

Disprove it.

Still not the Madara in this debate bro. He also was attached to the Juubi and couldn't move regardless. 

Madara doesn't have FTG. Ay's fist was literally inchs from the bridge of Minato's nose before he could warp away. Madara was able to compeltely fold his arms and block before Ay could strike.


OR Madara tanked the attacks because he could ?

 That's complex different from this situation . We have EXACT comparisons. We have the difference between a weakened and Full powered Justu from Hashirama. It's logical to just scale that, considering they both were effected the same amount from Edo. Or are we just to assume Tobirama has one Suiton Justu ?


Is good for distractions and to block LoS.

We know it was weaker then a BM resengan though.

Elia how else is he going to teleport it ? ST barrier is literally just teleporting an attack with FTG. Tobirama specifically states that he can teleport the BD with FTG. Soo?

Doesn't prove that he can stop the ET as it's not proven that him and Madara have the same Justu ? But ill take it anyway. Minato has to physically touch and cast the Justu however on a FTG sealed ninja.

Tobirama is pretty damn fast and he has FTG and superior reactions and shunshin. He's gonna be harder to catch then AY.

It says the toads he/she is able to summon depends on their abilities.

He could teleport to them with FTG anyway. And I guess the toad part is true, however Minato has less chakra then Tobirama so using Kage Bunshin, summonings all those toads, using ST barrier, FTG a lot, and chakra boosting his toads will be suicide.

And very well I guess. Thanks for the debate.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

The fight can go two ways imo. 

1) The fight comes down to whose a split second faster like Minato vs Obito, in which case I feel Kishimoto would give Minato the edge

2) They are equal in speed and the fight becomes a teleport spam endurance contest that Tobirama due to being a Senju would probably have the edge, but at a certain point Minato will say fuck it and use the invisible Shiki Fuujin attack, which will result in the match ending in a draw.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The fight can go two ways imo.
> 
> 1) The fight comes down to whose a split second faster like Minato vs Obito, in which case I feel Kishimoto would give Minato the edge
> 
> 2) They are equal in speed and the fight becomes a teleport spam endurance contest that Tobirama due to being a Senju would probably have the edge, but at a certain point Minato will say fuck it and use the invisible Shiki Fuujin attack, which will result in the match ending in a draw.



I feel the same with KCM Minato and Tobirama regarding speed. But not Base Minato. We both know the difference between a base user and a KCM user. Naruto went from around Kakuzus speed level to faster the Ay. The speed difference is astronomical. 

Now think about the fact that Tobirama has been fighting with KCM Minato the entire war time, and has showed no signs of being significantly slower. The ONLY reason people think Minato is faster is because Tobirama has constantly been praising him. But people don't take onto consideration that Tobirama simply is humble and that Minato had been accomplishing the majority of his feats in KCM Mode. People also don't take into consideration that Tobirama mainly was praising his FTG not shunshin. And that's because Minato has level 2( same with Tobirama now)

When you seriously take feats into consideration then Tobirama is clearly superior to base Minato ;


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 17, 2014)

The fastest is the one with greater speed and reflexes, so Minato is the fastest whether he is in base or not, confirmed by Tobirama himself

Tobirama was impressed by *Base Minato*'s quickness to act when he realised not only he did manage to outspeed them to go to the battlefield, but prepared the Hokages already for the barrier by puting his markings on something as big as the Jubi, and that was without even knowing Minato also had the time to go middle ocean to place another one

Tobirama was too overwhelmed by Jubito's speed that he had no other option left than "dying" in order to tag his opponent in a mutual contact. Minato on the other hand was never overwhelmed by mindless Jubito's speed. Infact he reacted to his attacks while being distracted by the fact of trying to save either Naruto or Sasuke in 2 instances

Obito has shown to activate his phasing ability faster than Madara could react when he managed to phase through Naruto's FRS when Madara got blitzed by KCM Lee when both arrived at the same time, and Base Minato managed to outmanoeuver this phasing when Tobirama was outmanoeuvered by Madara despite sneak attacking

Madara was also overwhelmed in speed by V1 Raikage to the point he had no other option than ressorting to Susanoo to protect himself. Minato outmanoeuvered V2 Raikage in a short time frame where he couldn't even move an inch between 2 teleportations

So Minato is faster than Tobirama


----------



## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I feel the same with KCM Minato and Tobirama regarding speed. But not Base Minato. We both know the difference between a base user and a KCM user. Naruto went from around Kakuzus speed level to faster the Ay. The speed difference is astronomical.
> 
> Now think about the fact that Tobirama has been fighting with KCM Minato the entire war time, and has showed no signs of being significantly slower. The ONLY reason people think Minato is faster is because Tobirama has constantly been praising him. But people don't take onto consideration that Tobirama simply is humble and that Minato had been accomplishing the majority of his feats in KCM Mode. People also don't take into consideration that Tobirama mainly was praising his FTG not shunshin. And that's because Minato has level 2( same with Tobirama now)
> 
> When you seriously take feats into consideration then Tobirama is clearly superior to base Minato ;


The problem is when discussing two FTG users physical movement speed is pointless as FTG triumphs all physical movement speed. What matters is reaction time; Tobirama has his Sensing and Minato has his ungodly reflexes that are a match with the Raikages (less Raiton no Yoroi). Which ends up making ether one faster is hard to tell, but If Kishi was to differentiate I feel like it would end in Minato's favor simply due to a number of factors in the plot. Granted Kishi might not differentiate, which is why I included scenario 2, where their speed remains equal.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jan 17, 2014)

Tobirama is not even at full power too

which is another matter...What was the point of kishi bringing back hashirama and tobirama in a weakened state when madara woulddestroy them anyways


----------



## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Tobirama is not even at full power too
> 
> which is another matter...What was the point of kishi bringing back hashirama and tobirama in a weakened state when madara woulddestroy them anyways



The point is two fold. 

Madara would not have destroyed them, back when he was an Edo Tensei. Hashirama & the alliance would have sealed Madara long before Obito got the chance to use Gedou Rinnei Tensei. And I get the impression that here Tobirama would have had a chance to kill him (or at least prove more effective) w/ his original Hiraishingiri ambush, while Madara was distracted by the Bijuu/Jin, if not for Tobirama being weakened.


----------



## SharinganKisame (Jan 17, 2014)

Because of his superior intellect Tobirama could make some clones and disperse them and lure minato to be exactly at the center of them. like this:
         C        C        C

                   M

         C         C       C 

they can all use suiton suidanha and kill him like that if they start shooting just before he appears in the middle of them. I think base Minato would be trap and won't have time to react. This is biased because i'm a huge tobirama fan lol but still he could win like that if he's at full power, not in ET.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 17, 2014)

Blake said:


> The fastest is the one with greater speed and reflexes, so Minato is the fastest whether he is in base or not, confirmed by Tobirama himself
> 
> Tobirama was impressed by *Base Minato*'s quickness to act when he realised not only he did manage to outspeed them to go to the battlefield, but prepared the Hokages already for the barrier by puting his markings on something as big as the Jubi, and that was without even knowing Minato also had the time to go middle ocean to place another one
> 
> ...



Couple of problems with this Blake:

1) Tobirama confirmed that Minato had superior FTG efficiency, and that his speed never ceased to amaze him. You have to realize that Tobirama is an extremely humble ninja, and the opinion( character statement ) of a ninja should not be taken as a direct fact, rather feats should. Here are some character statements that are just flat out wrong and shouldn't be taken seriously; 

A. Kimmi being superior to Oro and the Sannin.
B. Kimmi being around the level of Hebi Sasuke.
C. Itachi and Kisame stalemating Jirayia despite Oro, who is far more advanced then Jirayia in Genjustu knowledge, being one paneled by Itachi.
D. Hiruzen being superior to all the Sandaime Kage, Minato, and being around the level of Sage Hashirama.

2) This point is just kinda wrong. The problem is that Nobody at all was expecting the speed jump to be so significant. Obito went from fighting at a high level to being the fastest entity in the manga. You also have to take into consideration the 2 experiences that Tobirama and Minato shared were completely different, and Minato did get blitzed.

One difference is that Obito actually used a shunshin against Tobirama and caught him off guard ; internal strife
Yet Tobirama was still able to mark Obito without him noticing and place infinite explosion tags on him.

While Obito merely moved his staff and still blitzed and overwhelmed Minato ; Link removed

And perhaps the biggest difference that people seem to forget is that this isn't base Minato. This is KCM Minato. The speed difference is extremely vast.

3) I don't think you really took into consideration all the factors with this one. We have a solid feat for Madara comfortably reacting to V2 Ay; Link removed
And for obvious reasons we both can come to the conclusion that Ay> Kyyubi Cloaked Lee. So it quickly becomes obvious that Madara not "reacting " wasn't due to not having fast enough ocular or mental reactions, but that he was physically incapable of moving. You have to remember that being connected to the Juubi negates movement . Also that entire feat was riddled with plot bullshit. Lee moved at the speed of an FRS which Madara reacted to multiple times.

Now my biggest complaint is the fact that you actually went far enough to compare that Version of Madara to current Madara . You obviously neglect the fact that current Madara has a real Rinnegan + SM sensing. 

In conclusion Tobirama is faster and overall superior to Base Minato, but KCM Minato is faster and vastly superior.

@ Turrin. 
I feel as if Tobirama has superior reactions, shunshin, intelligence, and stamina to Base Minato. And feel as Kishi has easily portrayed Tobirama above Base Minato but a good amount below KCM Minato.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @ Turrin.
> I feel as if Tobirama has superior reactions, shunshin, intelligence, and stamina to Base Minato. And feel as Kishi has easily portrayed Tobirama above Base Minato but a good amount below KCM Minato.



- Reactions are debatable as I said, I just have a feeling that if Kishi were writing the fight we'd ether see both having the same reactions and a long drawn out fight or Minato coming out on top; I can't see Kishi having Minato get the MS Obito treatment where Tobirama reactions are a split second faster allowing him to blitz Minato.

- It's outright stated by Tobirama that Minato's better at Shunshin than him. 

- Intelligence is debatable; Tobirama has shown more IQ, but Minato has a level of wisdom I don't think Tobirama even now fully grasps. 

- Stamina I agree, I just don't see Minato allowing stamina contest to occur as he'd just opt for Shiki Fuujin and end it that way.

- I don't see anything in portrayal indicating Tobirama is above Base Minato, unless Tobirama is fully prepped w/ solid Edo Tensei who have Tandem Explosive Tags installed in them and are FTG marked. Outside of that Tobirama has been performing as I basically expect Minato would, even in this last chapter the way Tobirama fought Madara was very reminiscent of Minato vs Obito. So if anything their portrayal is similar, though if anything I'd give Minato the edge due to him commanding powerful Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu and Shiki Fuujin being so OP it had to be written out of the manga thus far.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Reactions are debatable as I said, I just have a feeling that if Kishi were writing the fight we'd ether see both having the same reactions and a long drawn out fight or Minato coming out on top; I can't see Kishi having Minato get the MS Obito treatment where Tobirama reactions are a split second faster allowing him to blitz Minato.
> 
> - It's outright stated by Tobirama that Minato's better at Shunshin than him.
> 
> ...



Well I guess that's your opinion.

Why does this matter? Characters statements don't equal facts Turrin. Itachi and Kisame both were said to stalemate Jirayia when each of them alone could give him a hell of a fight. Let's not even get into the Hirzuen wank. I really dont care honestly. It really comes done to the feats. Solid feats to back up your statements and NOBODY on this entire forum has been able to provide these. By feats Tobirama is superior. Point blank period. Care to show some feats ? I am more then welcome to debate against it.

Also shunshin sometimes is asked FTG;


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> -
> - Intelligence is debatable; Tobirama has shown more IQ, but Minato has a level of wisdom I don't think Tobirama even now fully grasps.
> 
> - I don't see anything in portrayal indicating Tobirama is above Base Minato, unless Tobirama is fully prepped w/ solid Edo Tensei who have Tandem Explosive Tags installed in them and are FTG marked. Outside of that Tobirama has been performing as I basically expect Minato would, even in this last chapter the way Tobirama fought Madara was very reminiscent of Minato vs Obito. So if anything their portrayal is similar, though if anything I'd give Minato the edge due to him commanding powerful Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu and Shiki Fuujin being so OP it had to be written out of the manga thus far.



1. What is this great wisdom that Minato possess that Tobirama cannot grasp? Please give examples
2. Shiki fuujin is not more haxxed than Edo tensei. One kills while the other when combined with hiraishin would give anyone trouble. Edo tensei is said to be the greatest Justu ever created. These Uzumaki fuuinmutsu what do they do? That's like me saying I give Tobirama the edge because he commands Senju body of the sage. It does not mean anything. Unless we know which Justus he copied from the Uzumaki, you can't just pretend they give him an advantage.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Well I guess that's your opinion.
> 
> Why does this matter? Characters statements don't equal facts Turrin. Itachi and Kisame both were said to stalemate Jirayia when each of them alone could give him a hell of a fight. Let's not even get into the Hirzuen wank. I really dont care honestly. It really comes done to the feats. Solid feats to back up your statements and NOBODY on this entire forum has been able to provide these. By feats Tobirama is superior. Point blank period. Care to show some feats ? I am more then welcome to debate against it.
> 
> Also shunshin sometimes is asked FTG;



Feats wise:

1- Tobirama got his ass kicked by Kin & gin.
1- Minato fought Kumo's strongest tag-team and kicked their asses according to them.

2- Tobirama got killed in the 1st War by 20 fodders.
2- Minato killed more fodders in instant. 

3- Tobirama torn in half by V1 mindless obito.
3- Minato only got one arm cut off my V2 in his V2. 

4- Tobirama killed Izuna a feat less fodder.
4- Minato defeated Obito (who has Hashi's cells) and sealed Kurama. 

5- Tobirama arrived with the other 2 Hokages.
5- Minato left them all in the dust. 

6- Edo Tobirama was defeated by old Hiruzen's clone. 
6- Minato saved Hiruzen from full Kurama, (Kin & gin only have part of its chakra and kicked Tobirama's ass). 

7- Tobirama was defeated in 2 seconds by madara.
7- Minato ..... 

That in term of what they have accomplished in their fights. U_U
Also, Tobirama is done for now, Minato is still fighting and there is still at least his unrevealed jutsu yet to be seen.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> Feats wise:
> 
> 1- Tobirama got his ass kicked by Kin & gin.
> 1- Minato fought Kumo's strongest tag-team and kicked their asses according to them.
> ...



Elia just stop. If you wanna prove a point then post back on the debate that you happened to brush over.

1.  We don't know what happened in that battle therefore we can not use it's a feat. For all we know Tobirama could have bee ambushed by the entire nation.

1. Yet another off paneled experience that should not be used in this debate. Current Tobirama has feats to replicate that feat.

2.  We don't know who killed him. And kin and gin aren't fodders are they ?

2. That's cool I guess. So did casual Madara who is slower and a lot weaker then Tobirama using base Sharingan.

3. Obito used a shunshin against Tobirama he still was able to tag him twice without him noticing a thing.

3. Shunshin was not used against Minato. Minato got his arm torn off by a casual Obito and that was KCM not Base Minato btw.

4. Izuna was stated to be around the level of MS Madara( who could solo Onnoki and Mu) but still weaker. The fact that he possessed an MS means he was a powerful Shinobi. Still a Featless feat so I could care less. About as important as the Kumo feat.

4. Uhh okay ?

5. Tobirama was casually pacing with the Kage.

5. Minato used Shunshin and FTG Level 2.

6. Not even gonna address that garbage.

6. Minato has sealing Justu to stop Kurama. Without it he would get killed.

7. Madara with EMS + Real Rinnegan + SM sencing + Plot shield.

7. Minato hasn't fought Madara.

8. Tobirama possess a shunshin superior to base Minato, reactions superior , and an arm swing faster then KCM Minato; Hashirama's words


----------



## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

> =Likes boss;49549783]
> 1.  We don't know what happened in that battle therefore we can not use it's a feat. For all we know Tobirama could have bee ambushed by the entire nation.
> 
> 1. Yet another* off paneled experience that should not be used in this debate*. Current Tobirama has feats to replicate that feat.



1- LOOOL, it's stated they were 20 not the entire nation.
1- Oh God! The Irony. ck


> 2.  We don't know who killed him. And kin and gin aren't fodders are they ?
> 
> 2. That's cool I guess. So did casual Madara who is slower and a* lot weaker then Tobirama* using base Sharingan.


2- with what Darui did to them? Yes, more or less fodders. U_U
2- What?  


> 3. Obito used a shunshin against Tobirama he still was able to tag him twice without him noticing a thing.
> 
> 3. Shunshin was not used against Minato. Minato got his arm torn off by a casual Obito and that was KCM not Base Minato btw.


3- of course he won't notice, he's mindless at that point for God's sake. 
3- Yeah, if tobirama then it was used, but V2 obito in his mind and much faster than V1, then
fuck it because it's Minato. 


> 4. Izuna was stated to be around the level of MS Madara( who could solo Onnoki and Mu) but still weaker. The fact that he possessed an MS means he was a powerful Shinobi. Still a Featless feat so I could care less. About as important as the Kumo feat.
> 
> 4. Uhh okay ?


4- lol, wrong translation is wrong. Also, why didn't you say killing Izuna is also off panel? Oh, wait because we are talking about Tobirama. :rofl



> 5. Tobirama was casually pacing with the Kage.
> 
> 5. Minato used Shunshin and FTG Level 2.


5- fan fiction.



> 6. Not even gonna address that garbage.
> 6. Minato has sealing Justu to stop Kurama. Without it he would get killed.



6- Yeah the truth does hurt, I mean look at this.:rofl
*Spoiler*: __ 










I would be ashamed as well. XDD 

6- lol, so? He does have his sealing jutsu, so what the point of saying "without it" XD 


> 7. Madara with EMS + Real Rinnegan + SM sencing + Plot shield.
> 
> 7. Minato hasn't fought Madara.



7- Whatever makes you happy
7- that's why I put "......" I meant by it we will see what will happen to him. U_U


> 8. Tobirama possess a shunshin superior to base Minato, reactions superior , and an arm swing faster then KCM Minato; Hashirama's words



and now off-panel is allowed to be used unlike in the first point because it's for Tobirama. LOL
Ok, whatever makes you happy. XDDD


----------



## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> 1- LOOOL, it's stated they were 20 not the entire nation.
> 1- Oh God! The Irony. ck
> 
> 2- with what Darui did to them? Yes, more or less fodders. U_U
> ...



You realize that they were stated to be Elite Shinobi right ? You realize Kakashi in part 1 is a elite Jounin right ? You realize that 20 Shinobi of Kakashi level + 2 Kyuubi cloaked Warriors would prove a challenge to any high tiered Shinobi ? On top of this that feat shouldn't be used regardless. It's Completley off paneled. We have no idea what even happened. 

Darui was competing with Base Gin and Kin without 20 other ninja interfering. That's cool I guess.

You read correctly Elia. Base Madara was fodderizing hundreds of fodder almost instantly. Base Sharingan Madara is weaker then Tobirama.

His mindless incarnation was still able to fodderize Hirzuen and blitz EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto. It's impressive nonetheless.

He's not that much faster. Minato could still barely react to V1. And V2 blitzed Mianto regardless. And that's KCM Minato so stop using that feat.

Then please show us the translation then. And if you had read correct I said it was a Featless feat so it's to be disregarded. 

Okay

Do you actually receive satisfaction from using part 1 Tobirama feats ? LOL.

Are you serious? Just stop now. Both Minato and Tobirama don't have the firepower to kill Kurama. The only way is a sealing Justu. Tobirama doesn't have one. He never fought Kurama to begin with, so that feat is useless


That's not off panel ? We clearly see him not in sight in the first panel and him there In the second panel. A shunshin Elia ? Did you know ninja could cross large distances in short times ?


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## Kaiser (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> 1) Tobirama confirmed that Minato had superior FTG efficiency, and that his speed never ceased to amaze him. You have to realize that Tobirama is an extremely humble ninja, and the opinion( character statement ) of a ninja should not be taken as a direct fact, rather feats should. Here are some character statements that are just flat out wrong and shouldn't be taken seriously;


He said he has superior shunshin [1], not FTG something that would not even make sense since Minato obviously didn't appear on a battlefield where he never put a marking before.

I don't know why you talk about Tobirama's humility as well when talking about something that happened before our own sight.

Base Minato *was shown* to be superior to him in speed when he not only managed to outspeed him(along with other Hokages), but placed markings around the Jubi for the barrier and even got time to place another one middle ocean 

Ignoring manga statements because you don't like/believe it already make you lose credibility in the arguments


> A. Kimmi being superior to Oro and the Sannin.


I would like to have a manga scan concerning this


> B. Kimmi being around the level of Hebi Sasuke.


This one as well


> C. Itachi and Kisame stalemating Jirayia despite Oro, who is far more advanced then Jirayia in Genjustu knowledge, being one paneled by Itachi.


Casting genjutsu and countering genjutsu is 2things different. Jiraya stated he isn't good at casting genjutsus, doesn't mean he can't counter them as well as Orochimaru if not better. I do believe that Jiraya and Itachi are more or less equals



> D. Hiruzen being superior to all the Sandaime Kage, Minato, and being around the level of Sage Hashirama.


Hashirama's strength was considered a fairy tail. Many people didn't want to believe someone that strong could exist, so he was obviously not included in the statement. Minato was a young Hokage who still needed to prove himself. 

A long lasting Kage like Hiruzen(more than 30years Kage) was obviously more known than everyone else from people of this era. That statement then is only characters opinions concerning what they know/see just like people like Jiraya, Kakashi or A thought of MInato as the unsurpassable one, because they saw and acknowledged his power. 

Tobirama himself was hailed as the fastest shinobi when he was alive when Minato was hailed as the fastest shinobi as well, but both never lived in the same era. Minato and A were both renowned to be fast and since they lived in the same era(where they confronted themselves even) we've seen who was the fastest one(Minato). Only after Minato died that A got the title

Concerning Tobirama however who was hailed as the fastest shinobi as well, since he didn't live in the same era as Minato, we could have never know who was really faster. But fortunately, they got a direct speed challenge when they returned as edo and again Base Minato was shown to be the fastest one

The thing you're not grasping however is that we have seen a direct confrontation in speed between Tobirama and Base Minato. It's not someone else who brought up the statement. *We saw it ourselves*

Don't know why you're arguing against mangafacts here



> 2) This point is just kinda wrong. The problem is that Nobody at all was expecting the speed jump to be so significant. Obito went from fighting at a high level to being the fastest entity in the manga. You also have to take into consideration the 2 experiences that Tobirama and Minato shared were completely different, and Minato did get blitzed.


He got blitzed sure but not by the same Jubito who blitzed Tobirama. That one had a mind, had a new transformation and power-ups, on the contrary of the mindless one who was running randomly without thinking and eventhen, Minato still dodged him(although not entirely) on the contrary of Tobirama who was cut in half



> One difference is that Obito actually used a shunshin against Tobirama and caught him off guard ; Hashirama's words


You're making up things here. Tobirama was never off-guard. He was just infront of him and Jubito didn't even have his black spheres in his hands yet: Hashirama's words


> Yet Tobirama was still able to mark Obito without him noticing and place infinite explosion tags on him.


It's not as if he had a brain to notice something. Even Base Hashirama's clone tagged his other side with explosive tags: Hashirama's words

Just like he didn't even care dodging Hashirama's sage gates when it's a long range attack: Hashirama's words



> While Obito merely moved his staff and still blitzed and overwhelmed Minato ; Hashirama's words


A stronger version of Obito with brain. Nothing shows he wouldn't have done the same to Tobirama if not more. At least Minato still managed to partially dodge the attack



> And perhaps the biggest difference that people seem to forget is that this isn't base Minato. This is KCM Minato. The speed difference is extremely vast.


The speed should certainly change, but not the reflexes. More chakra increases your shunshin, but i don't see how more chakra changes your reactive capabilities. Your reactions depends on your nerve transmission system something that chakra doesn't increase. And to dodge something, reactions are more needed than speed, so nothing changes in the reflexive department between base and KCM Minato



> 3) I don't think you really took into consideration all the factors with this one. We have a solid feat for Madara comfortably reacting to V2 Ay; Hashirama's words


A was in V1, evidenced by the fact A stated he could up the speed(V2): Hashirama's words


> And for obvious reasons we both can come to the conclusion that Ay> Kyyubi Cloaked Lee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Blake said:


> He said he has superior shunshin [1], not FTG something that would not even make sense since Minato obviously didn't appear on a battlefield where he never put a marking before.
> 
> I don't know why you talk about Tobirama's humility as well when talking about something that happened before our own sight.
> 
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Edo Tourne may cement Tobirama's victory... how is Minato going to know that he can't touch the guy?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Edo Tourne may cement Tobirama's victory... how is Minato going to know that he can't touch the guy?



Because it's obvious?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> Because it's obvious?



Since when does Minato know about Tourne?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Since when does Minato know about Tourne?



You don't need to know about someone to know there is something in his body for being purple 

Also, Minato is the fucking Hokage for God's sake, you would know that he at least know about
his village people and clans.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> You don't need to know about someone to know there is something in his body for being purple
> 
> Also, Minato is the fucking Hokage for God's sake, you would know that he at least know about
> his village people and clans.



Why would Minato know about Tourne who is a special case even among the Aburame clan? Even more so, a clan member who is within Danzo's very secretive organisation?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would Minato know about Tourne who is a special case even among the Aburame clan? Even more so, a clan member who is within Danzo's very secretive organisation?



The same reason to why Tobirama traveled in time to get his DNA? 

Also, obito notice that his jutsu is the same as his father, who was during Minato's area as well? 

-snip-
even so, that he is from Tobirama's weak ET. lol 

-snip-


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 18, 2014)

Considering Minato died in the story around sixteen years ago, and Torune doesn't actually seem that old, it's actually possible he wasn't in Root during Minato's time as Hokage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> The same reason to why Tobirama traveled in time to get his DNA?
> 
> Also, obito notice that his jutsu is the same as his father, who was during Minato's area as well?
> 
> ...



Tobirama's been given a certain ET ITT, so we're forced to work with that.

Obito had access to Madara and Zetsu's knowledge. Obito knew a lot of things that the Hokage generally didn't know. Examples include the legend of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki, the Rikudou Sennin and details about it including information on the Juubi and Hagoromo's sons. 
So Obito's knowledge on Tourne doesn't mean Minato has knowledge on Tourne as it is very likely that Obito knows a considerable amount more than Minato does... the guy got a history lesson from Madara himself.

Still decent enough skills to use. For instance he could simply tag some branches and teleport pretty much wherever the branches are, or use Hashirama's Genjutsu. Let's not forget he could allow Minato to hurt Hashirama and use the explosion. 

Just because he may not be able to overwhelm Minato with Senjusu and Mokuton, it doesn't mean we should ignore Edo Hashirama. More so because he could still work well with Tobirama.


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