# EMS Sasuke vs. Sandaime Raikage



## Dominus (May 20, 2013)

*Location:* _Destroyed Konoha_

*Distance:* _20m_

*Knowledge:* _Manga_

*Mindset:* _IC_

*Restrictions:* _None_


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

Sauce.

Raikagenaut charges to Sauce.

Sauce summons hawk and flies.

Sauce from above uses Amaterasu on Raikagenaut extensively then throws a barrage of Raiton and Katon attacks then Sauce incinerates the whole battlefield with Amaterasu then another barrage of Katon Goryuka on Raikagenaut then clouds form then Kirin! Then more Amaterasu on Third Raikage.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Sasuke should win more times then not. He can just get inside of Susanoo and use Enton to protect himself and likely land a successful hit on the Sandaime. From there its just a matter of Sasuke waiting out the Sandaime.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

The Raikage wins more often that not. 
even if Sasuke uses his Sasunoo and the Enton to protect himself 
that wont stop the 3rd's jutsu as it did not stop A's attack. However, unlike
A's attack, the 3rd's will kill him. He may lose his arm after that as his son.
But Sasuke will die.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 20, 2013)

A broke a much weaker version of Susano'o; the Susano'o that Sasuke has now is several levels stronger than the one that A barely broke, and canonically, the strongest character in the manga (physically) was only barely able to smash apart the rib cage version as well. There's no way for him to break through Sasuke's defense, and unlike his son, he isn't fast enough to completely avoid Amaterasu either. On the other hand, he's a lot more durable than him, so it's likely he would survive it for a lot longer as well, but he it'd ultimately result in a battle of attrition that way. Either Sasuke runs out of chakra sustaining a jutsu he was able to use for an entire battle before he powered up, or the Sandaime Raikage dies from Amaterasu burning him to death, and probably getting hit by Enton: Yasaka Magatama along the way as the flames would undoubtedly decrease his movement speed as well. Even assuming he's fast enough to dodge the flames manifestation, there's still no way he can attack Sasuke without burning himself, as Sasuke can coat himself with Enton like before. Though, unlike last time against A, he'd also be able to attack at the same time.

It's also possible that Sasuke can just grab him, exploiting openings created by Enton: Yasaka Magatama, and then use Genjutsu to defeat him that way like he did with the Zetsu clones, but I find this slightly unlikely as I'm fairly sure that the Sandaime Raikage, while not quite as fast as A, would still be quick enough to avoid that.


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## UchihaSasukeSama (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke should win more times then not. He can just get inside of Susanoo and use Enton to protect himself and likely land a successful hit on the Sandaime. From there its just a matter of Sasuke waiting out the Sandaime.




This.

The only way Sandaime Raikage would win is if he managed to attack Sasuke before he awakens the Susano'o.


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## Kazekage94 (May 20, 2013)

I give this to the Raikage unless his fingered jutsu isn't enough to penetrate the Susanoo, if not then Sasuke could win IF he catches him, then he has to find a way to avoid his jutsu once again.


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

with the raikages piercing attack beeing superior to frs.. what chance does sasuke's susanoo have of surviving?? anyway 1 step upgrade from susanoo versus the gaint leap between danzo's futons to frs and then to hellbringer.. i wouldn't like my chances.. 

also even if sasuke's susanoo has enton on it.. do you think it is going to stop the raikage?? he run right through it just like his brother did.. at best this will also set the raikage on fire.. and sasuke will do some/alot/deadly damage.. this could certainly lead to a draw.. 

raikage dieing from enton flames during any fighting is just stupid.. eventually sandaime might not be able to keep the shroud up.. but one way or another the fight will long since be over by that point.. 

anyway i think sandaime is going to destroy sasuke but in the process get hit by amaterasu.. depending on how much damage it does this match might end up beeing a draw.. 

sandaime has shown feats of reacting to kcm naruto (something that gives him superior reactions and speed to sasuke by a fairly decent margin).. so no chance of sasuke getting away when and if the sandaime breaks susanoo..


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## Radice (May 20, 2013)

I'm waiting Sasuke show the true power his EMS...

But Enton + Susanoo is great combination against Sandaime.
At the same time Susano'o protects  Sasuke enton burns Sandaime when he try to Atack.


Anyway sasuke only need to just stand still waiting for him...

Raikage lose his arm. No matter the enemy's resistance.
If he fails to extinguish the flames.
The enton will burn him.

Raikage's liger Bomb did nothing to incomplete skeletal Susano'o.
Even if the Sandaime is  more stronger than his son
I think it's not very easy to break  a full armored Susano'o with Enton.

Sasuke is the worst kind of opponent for someone who uses only taijutsu...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> Sauce.
> 
> Raikagenaut charges to Sauce.
> 
> ...


How is summoning a hawk faster than the Third Raikage? The second he tries to do that, he's vulnerable for a Nukite shanking. And a 'whole barrage of Raiton and Katon' do what exactly? And Kirin, even though the Third Raikage tanked a Kurama powered FRS with no damage?


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## KeyofMiracles (May 20, 2013)

Sasuke takes this, easily. Once Susanoo goes up the Raikage doesn't stand a chance. It tanks all his attacks while Enton Magatama or Enton Blade finish him off.

Of course a blitz isn't happening here as this guy is not as fast as V2 A when he uses Shunshin.

-There's also the fact that he cant even dodge Amaterasu , so that's a one shot.


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

3rd peirced himself with a jutsu that is similiar to Chidori and Raikiri. Ei matched the 3rd Raikage best durability feat by surviving the lightning transfer jutsu. Sasuke managed to peirced Raikages chest with Chidori though it went in to about his knuckles. The greater peircing power is most likely due to the Raikages vastly superior strength over sasuke rather than the actual jutsu. But besides that. Enton and Amaterasu would obliterate the 3rd Raikage. Especially since Ei>Raikage in Strength and Speed feats.

And Sasuke has the Same susano-o level that Madara had when he tanked 100% Kyuubi Bijuudama. And there is no way he is avoiding that. Not to mention we saw with Ei and Madara that just because the lightning shroud is up doing its thing. Doesnt mean the user is  immune to genjutsu. Its quite possible for Sasuke to catch him and then its a wrap.

Featless EMS Sasuke already has more than what either Raikage can handle. Also EMS sasuke has Juugo flesh and chakra fused in him as well was given the Sage Power of the Curse seal meaning he most likely has CS/SM which could create Sasuke infamous one shot Black Chidori which offers greater power. So yeah. Sasuke stomps this actually.


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

Radice said:


> I'm waiting Sasuke show the true power his EMS...
> 
> But Enton + Susanoo is great combination against Sandaime.
> At the same time Susano'o protects  Sasuke enton burns Sandaime when he try to Atack.
> ...



so any proof that susanoo can withstand hellbringer?? sasuke's previous versions where easily breached.. madara's susanoo where breached by lower attacks.. 

hell madara flat out stated frs was a little to much.. hell bringer is an even more powerful piercing attack.. 

there is just isn't any proof susanoo can withstand it.. while there is a decent ammount of evidence that it can.. 

anyway since it is extremly likely that hellbringer will run through susanoo.. we should asume it can..


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> so any proof that susanoo can withstand hellbringer?? sasuke's previous versions where easily breached.. madara's susanoo where breached by lower attacks..
> 
> hell madara flat out stated frs was a little to much.. hell bringer is an even more powerful piercing attack..
> 
> ...



Sasuke has the same Susano-o level Madara had against hashirama that tanked a bijuu Dama. Bijuu dama>Hell Bringer. No discussion. Even if Sasuke Susano-o Durability isnt even at the level. IF its anywhere near that level its not getting through what so ever.


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke has the same Susano-o level Madara had against hashirama that tanked a bijuu Dama. Bijuu dama>Hell Bringer. No discussion. Even if Sasuke Susano-o Durability isnt even at the level. IF its anywhere near that level its not getting through what so ever.



uhm lol no sasuke has not shown perfect susanoo.. hell based on ms sasuke abilty to hold susanoo for less then 10 minuts.. he doesn't even have the chakra to create perfect susanoo for more then a few seconds... 

so no sasuke cannot block hell bringer or anything close.. untill he shows a perfect susanoo. and even when he does he has to withstand a bijuu dama before you can say that it can.. since not all susanoo's are created equal.. and for that matter sasuke's susanoo has not shown the power or defense madara's has..


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm lol no sasuke has not shown perfect susanoo.. hell based on ms sasuke abilty to hold susanoo for less then 10 minuts.. he doesn't even have the chakra to create perfect susanoo for more then a few seconds...
> 
> so no sasuke cannot block hell bringer or anything close.. untill he shows a perfect susanoo. and even when he does he has to withstand a bijuu dama before you can say that it can.. since not all susanoo's are created equal.. and for that matter sasuke's susanoo has not shown the power or defense madara's has..



The EMS Susano-o that Sasuke used against Zetsu is the same level of Madara perfect Susano-o unstabalized. You are referring to the stabalized version of Madara's Susano-o as the giant one.  Sasuke held Susano-o for a good while and even Managed to fight and use and advance it against  Kakashi. This is while Sasuke was using Summoning, Tsukiyomi, and Amaterasu along with Multiple Chidoris. Not to mention Sasuke chakra has greatly increased from that Danzo fight.

Step out of denial and come to dry land my friend.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

Given Nukites ability to pierce the Third Raikage, it should be able to pierce Sasuke's Susano'o easily via Sasuke's Susano'o's old tanking feats (until he gets more, those are the best he has). Enton: Magatama aren't hitting the Third Raikage either due to his speed, and given the Third Raikage's chakra levels he should be able to pull off a Biju Shunshin like his son to avoid Amaterasu itself. 

As it stands right now, Sasuke could win, but it'd be EXTREMELY difficult.


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given Nukites ability to pierce the Third Raikage, it should be able to pierce Sasuke's Susano'o easily via Sasuke's Susano'o's old tanking feats (until he gets more, those are the best he has). Enton: Magatama aren't hitting the Third Raikage either due to his speed, and given the Third Raikage's chakra levels he should be able to pull off a Biju Shunshin like his son to avoid Amaterasu itself.
> 
> As it stands right now, Sasuke could win, but it'd be EXTREMELY difficult.



Ei>3rd Raikage in strength. The only thing 3rd Raikage had over Ei was durability and his best feat was matched by Ei. The same ei that was peirced by chidori. Ei is also much more faster than Raikage. Meaning the 3rd raikage doesnt have the speed to dodge amaterasu. Also with Ei superior strength. He bearly managed to break off a part of Sasuke Susano-o bone structure which wasnt even covered in Chakra at the point. Hell bringer jutsu is just gonna break the 3rds fingers. And what little damage is done will simply be repaired. the third has no hopes of defeating Sasuke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Ei>3rd Raikage in strength. The only thing 3rd Raikage had over Ei was durability and his best feat was matched by Ei. The same ei that was peirced by chidori. Ei is also much more faster than Raikage. Meaning the 3rd raikage doesnt have the speed to dodge amaterasu. Also with Ei superior strength. He bearly managed to break off a part of Sasuke Susano-o bone structure which wasnt even covered in Chakra at the point. Hell bringer jutsu is just gonna break the 3rds fingers. And what little damage is done will simply be repaired. the third has no hopes of defeating Sasuke.


A isn't stronger than the Third Raikage. The Third Raikage was said to be the strongest of the four, and A's strength hasn't shown to be greater than his father who can physically wrestle a Biju. And no, Chidori isn't ANYTHING compared to the One-Finger Nukite, its vastly weaker. And the Third Raikage has as much chakra as A does, he should be able to pull off what his son did given the ease he dodged the Futon: Rasenshuriken. And wait, since when does A have any feat comparable to TANKING A KURAMA POWERED RASENSHURIKEN?

Stop downplaying the Raikage, he's shown he can defeat Sasuke from feats.


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is summoning a hawk faster than the Third Raikage? The second he tries to do that, he's vulnerable for a Nukite shankingt



EMS Susanoo keeps Raikagenaut at bay while he summons a hawk and flies away where 3rd Raikage can't reach him. Don't expectt Susanoo to just stand there and tank Raikagenaut's attack. Of course Susanoo will also attack Raikagenaut to give Sauce time. I knew someone would take not of that part of my post.



> And a 'whole barrage of Raiton and Katon' do what exactly? And Kirin, even though the Third Raikage tanked a Kurama powered FRS with no damage?



Sheer attrition. Despite 3rd Raikage's defense... spammage will eventually destroy it... especially when it's Amaterasu-Enton-Raiton-Katon spammage.

Oh and I forgot Genjutsu... Raikagenaut is not immune to genjutsu... no matter how delusional people are.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> EMS Susanoo keeps Raikagenaut at bay while he summons a hawk and flies away where 3rd Raikage can't reach him. I knew someone would take not of that part of my post.


How does Sasuke keep the Third Raikage at bay when he's the Raikage's physical inferior by a great amount, has nothing in base to damage him, and if he tries Susano'o he'd just become a greater target. 




> Sheer attrition
> 
> Read the whole post, not just parts of it.


And you don't realize that Sasuke is more likely to run out of juice than the Third Raikage, right?


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## Krippy (May 20, 2013)

Sandaime has no knowledge of Amaterasu, so he's not dodging it


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Sandaime has no knowledge of Amaterasu, so he's not dodging it


Yeah, seeing someone with bleeding eyes indicates he won't dodge.


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## Krippy (May 20, 2013)

yes, because when someone's eye starts bleeding, black flames from hell will instantly spawn on your skin, guaranteed


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How does Sasuke keep the Third Raikage at bay when he's the Raikage's physical inferior by a great amount, has nothing in base to damage him, and if he tries Susano'o he'd just become a greater target.



That's why there's EMS Susanoo. That's Sasuke's ultimate defense yes?  Instasummon full Susanoo then keep Raikagenaut at bay. And as I was saying, Susanoo ain't there to just take Nukite up its ass. like knife through butter... coz Susanoo ain't butter to the Nukite. It will fight the Raikagenaut just long enough to have Sasuke flying above the battelfield.

Add Amaterasu coat to Susanoo armor and Raikagenaut won't survive attacking Sauce.

Bigger target? Doesn't matter. Sasuke doesn't need to dodge.




> And you don't realize that Sasuke is more likely to run out of juice than the Third Raikage, right?



He's in the air while he attacks. It doesn't matter if he runs out of juice because

1. Hawks don't use chakra while flying
2. Amaterasu/Enton lasts for 7 days at least unless Sauce turns them off.

Not to mention, Sasuke ain't no chakra push-over anymore as the manga progressed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

Krippy said:


> yes, because when someone's eye starts bleeding, black flames from hell will instantly spawn on your skin, guaranteed


Its not instant though. Amaterasu is a projectile that takes time to approach the target. We're talking about someone with similar chakra levels to his son, it shouldn't be out there for the Third Raikage to dodge.



titantron91 said:


> That's why there's EMS Susanoo. That's Sasuke's ultimate defense yes?  Instasummon full Susanoo then keep Raikagenaut at bay. And as I was saying, Sasuanoo ain't there tu just take Nukite up its ass. It will fight the Raikagenaut just long enough to have Sasuke flying above the battelfield.


Aaaannnd what's EMS Susano'o's best tanking feat, titantron91? Since unless it can take a Kurama empowered Futon: Rasenshuriken, it won't be blocking a one-finger Nukite. And with the Third Raikage's speed, he can easily get behind Susano'o and slash it on its weakpoint.





> He's in the air while he attacks. It doesn't matter if he runs out of juice because
> 
> 1. Hawks don't use chakra while flying
> 2. Amaterasu/Enton lasts for 7 days at least unless Sauce turns them off.
> ...


Sasuke isn't a chakra pushover, but he's NO WHERE NEAR the level of a guy who fought for three days against an army of 10,000 before collapsing from exhaustion/could fight Gyuki to a stand still until both were exhausted. 

And we haven't seen Amaterasu lasting for that duration, that should be considered hyperbole.


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## Gibbs (May 20, 2013)

A well timed Genjutsu should end this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> A well timed Genjutsu should end this.


Genjutsu is practically a non-factor. Sasuke wasn't able to get one off on A after all while he was in his initial Raiton no Yoroi state, so he won't be able to against the Third Raikage.


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not instant though. Amaterasu is a projectile that takes time to approach the target. We're talking about someone with similar chakra levels to his son, it shouldn't be out there for the Third Raikage to dodge.



Amaterasu not being totally instant doesn't automatically mean 3RK dodging it. Amaterasu is pretty much the fastest ranged non-S/T jutsu.

And 3RK ain't no sensor to detect when Amaterasu is charging up. He ain't got feats that 4RK has to dodge it either.



> Aaaannnd what's EMS Susano'o's best tanking feat, titantron91? Since unless it can take a Kurama empowered Futon: Rasenshuriken, it won't be blocking a one-finger Nukite. And with the Third Raikage's speed, he can easily get behind Susano'o and slash it on its weakpoint.



Enton Susanoo.

If 3RK attacks, Enton Susanoo tanks

If 3RK pierces, he won't get through without being burnt by Enton.

While attempting to summon the hawk, Sasuke will be watching the Raikage... tracking him (readying to dodge if ever he gets through) and readying to genjutsu him if 3RK bats his eyes on Sauce's.



> Sasuke isn't a chakra pushover, but he's NO WHERE NEAR the level of a guy who fought for three days against an army of 10,000 before collapsing from exhaustion/could fight Gyuki to a stand still until both were exhausted.
> 
> And we haven't seen Amaterasu lasting for that duration, that should be considered hyperbole.



We haven't seen exact 10000 shinobi either yeah? We haven't seen those 10000 shinobi spamming a hard-to-die and unquenchable infinite-level jutsu


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

very simple.. the hawk is not capable of moving the sasuke fast enough out of range to save sasuke..it doesn't have the feats..  remember the sandaime managed to jump pretty high after a kcm clone..  floating hawk sasuke is still vulnerable.. 

anyway combine that with hellbringers almost garanteed ability to pierce susanoo.. sasuke is not going to survive for long.. if a kcm clone required help to get away, sasuke doesn't have a chance.. 

then there is the chance that if sasuke hits the raikage with amaterasu it is not likely to stop him.. Ei was clearly not bothered by the flames during the matchup. and really this one won't be long either.. 

so the question is not wether the raikage will kill sasuke.. but wether sasuke can kill the raikage aswell.. this question depends on how much of the raikage is covered by amaterasu..


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## Krippy (May 20, 2013)

If Ei had avoided Amaterasu with no prior knowledge, then you would have a case

but he didn't, he prepared a shunshin powered by bijuu levels of chakra just to avoid Ammy

3rd Raikage isn't dodging it


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> very simple.. the hawk is not capable of moving the sasuke fast enough out of range to save sasuke..it doesn't have the feats..  remember the sandaime managed to jump pretty high after a kcm clone..  floating hawk sasuke is still vulnerable..
> 
> anyway combine that with hellbringers almost garanteed ability to pierce susanoo.. sasuke is not going to survive for long.. if a kcm clone required help to get away, sasuke doesn't have a chance..
> 
> ...



Sasuke can just summon Susanoo and then Amaterasu 3RK head on. No way 3RK getting out of that safely. Not to mention... if ever 3RK catches eye contact with Sauce, it's over. Genjutsu will incapacitate him hard and hawk summon and flight happens then Sasuke spamming offense from above happens.


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

Krippy said:


> If Ei had avoided Amaterasu with no prior knowledge, then you would have a case
> 
> but he didn't, he prepared a shunshin powered by bijuu levels of chakra just to avoid Ammy
> 
> 3rd Raikage isn't dodging it



bijuu lvl shunsin was extreme overkill though.. since it went from sasuke beeing somewhat able to react.. to not just not beeing able to react.. but also no longer able to see the raikage move at all.. 

that is a pretty huge gap.. if the raikage pushed a little extra chakra in his shunsin he would have been able to do the same thing.. since it just requires him surpassing sasuke reaction speed.. 

so the third raikage dodging amaterasu from sasuke is really not that farfetched.. considering we already know the third raikage is much faster then sasuke(he can hound kcm naruto)..


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A isn't stronger than the Third Raikage. The Third Raikage was said to be the strongest of the four, and A's strength hasn't shown to be greater than his father who can physically wrestle a Biju. And no, Chidori isn't ANYTHING compared to the One-Finger Nukite, its vastly weaker. And the Third Raikage has as much chakra as A does, he should be able to pull off what his son did given the ease he dodged the Futon: Rasenshuriken. And wait, since when does A have any feat comparable to TANKING A KURAMA POWERED RASENSHURIKEN?
> 
> Stop downplaying the Raikage, he's shown he can defeat Sasuke from feats.



What in the world are you talking about. Raikages most noteable feats are his Durability(Was matched by Ei traveling via lightning tranfer) and Stamina for fighting for 3 days against 10,000 shinobi.(Possibly Matched because Ei has Bijuu level chakra capacity)

So far the 3rd Raikage  has no strength feats to even begin to match Ei. When they had to seal Hachibi it was Teenage Ei who showed superior strength by temporarily knocking out the 8-tails with a single punch. The only one who has superior strength feats or even comparable strength feats is Tsunade. So unless you have evidence then Ei>>>3rd Raikage in pure strength. Even this is supported by Madara further evaluation.  Also when they say the strongest THEY DONT MEAN PHYSICAL STRENGTH. You forget that the 3rd Raikage also has a featless Black lightning which combing everything would make him the strongest. But he sadly didnt show a single black lightning jutsu to give him credit for.

Naruto stated and evaluated the jutsu stating that its the same as Sasuke's Chidori and Kakashi Raikiri. The third raikage would be capable of performing the same feats he did with hellbringer with Chidori. It is because of his physical strength and speed backing the jutsu which makes it stronger. 


Sasuke is a prime example on Chidori Peircing powers depending on how much strength is used. He has shown to use Chidori from leveling an entire wall, to a mere stun on himself to difuse Dei bombs. And if you really want to get technical. Sasuke Chidori was compared to Raikiri by dei when he had his strengthen chakra from CS. So this right here we are to believe that Sasuke chidori now is on the level of Kakahsi Raikiri. Raikiri is a nickname and the difficulty of cutting a lightning bolt in half is S-class. Hence Lightning cutter. Meaning Chidori is capable of slicing a lightning bolt in to. Hellbringer has no such feat to even compare it to that level. But I prefer to give it the benefit of the doubt and go by what the manga says when Naruto stated its exactly like Sasuke Chidori and Kakashi Raikiri. And that the real difference is the strength and speed behind the user. Considering Kakashi explanation of the attack when he states you have to gather up enough speed(hence trainning Sasuke to master Lee taijutsu to speed up) To correctly execute the full peircing power of Chidori. Its a velocity based jutsu as demostrated and drawn out by Sasuke's use with the jutsu.

As for Durability. You must forget that the 3rd Raikage tanked it with Edo tensei with its high speed regeneration If he took that attack while being alive he would have not walken away from it and would have been most likely in the same condition as Kakuzu. Maybe better because he has a lightning shield. Now Mabui Ei assistant stated that one of the third Raikages greatest feats was being able to travel via Lightning transfer and it was thought no one else could do it. Ei performed the same feat meaning he matched the 3rd Raikages durability. Plain and simple.

Rasensurekn was survived by Kakuzu and it didnt kill him off. Its ment to go into the body and slice the chakra cells. Tsunade stated it works more as a poison more as a direct attack. Chakra nerves being sevred is easily repaired by edo tensei regneration. So the only consistent durability feat which is also his supposed greatest is Lightning transfer. Also there was no difference in size between the RasenShuriken used against Kakuzu vs the one used against  Raikage. ACTUALLY if you really want to compare the one used against Kakuzu was greater in size. So are you going to go on a tangest and Say Kakuzu durability is greater than EI as well. Seeing as he survived just didnt have edo tensei to reconstruct the damage.

Stop overhyping Raikage and down playing Sasuke. EMS Sasuke would completely obliterate Sandaime Raikage. Raikage simply can't get through Susano-o. Raikage with his speed and velocity increased and his strength increased futher thanks to Oonoki stilled managed to only bearly crack Susano-o at a more developed level. A level which is still vastly under Sasuke susano-o level when that had happened.


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## Stermor (May 20, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> Sasuke can just summon Susanoo and then Amaterasu 3RK head on. No way 3RK getting out of that safely. Not to mention... if ever 3RK catches eye contact with Sauce, it's over. Genjutsu will incapacitate him hard and hawk summon and flight happens then Sasuke spamming offense from above happens.



there is the option he just pulls a tsunade.. he blocks amaterasu with his arm.. and just runs susanoo right through.. 

also lol at eye contact doing jack shit.. if sasuke has eye contact(or any part of the raikages body) with the raikage he is going to be using amaterasu.. anyway this is even without considering that the raikage is likely just as immune as by the rapid synapse speed granted by raiton armor.. 

anyway you presume sasuke can do multiple actions before sandiame is closing in.. which is unlikely with the superior reactions and speed of the sandaime..



Csdabest said:


> long post



you are not serious are you???


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## Gibbs (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Genjutsu is practically a non-factor. Sasuke wasn't able to get one off on A after all while he was in his initial Raiton no Yoroi state, so he won't be able to against the Third Raikage.


Didn't Itachi get Killer Bee in a Tsukiyomi? Didn't Sasuke get Danzo in a genjutsu.


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> bijuu lvl shunsin was extreme overkill though.. since it went from sasuke beeing somewhat able to react.. to not just not beeing able to react.. but also no longer able to see the raikage move at all..
> 
> that is a pretty huge gap.. if the raikage pushed a little extra chakra in his shunsin he would have been able to do the same thing.. since it just requires him surpassing sasuke reaction speed..
> 
> so the third raikage dodging amaterasu from sasuke is really not that farfetched.. considering we already know the third raikage is much faster then sasuke(he can hound kcm naruto)..



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Sasuke tracked Raikage movements. But being hindered by Amaterasu pain and deteriating eyesight gives perfect reason why Sasuke couldnt further track raikage. Even though he looked into the same direction Raikage shunshined. The fact that Sasuke knew what was happening and was capable of covering Susano-o rib cage w/ Amaterasu in the same Shunshin instant. Back to back amaterasu's  before Ei Could land a punch. Lets me believe that Sasuke could definetly handle those speeds now. I believe it goes in line with what lee said. Your eyes may be able to react but your body cant which is what the situation was. That even with Sharingan precog Ei was soo fast that sasuke body couldnt move to produce a counter.

Now I doubt the third can dodge amaterasu because Ei>>>3rd in speed. Also Sasuke has mastered his MS techniques and wont broadcast amaterasu like he did against Ei. Also Sasuke eyesight is also 100% now and his doujutsu is even more powerful than before. People seem to be forgetting that this is EMS Sasuke not rookie MS Sasuke that fought Ei. Popular belief even though that MS Sasuke would have beaten Ei if he had the vs Danzo Mastery. Even KCM Naruto who managed to dodge Ei couldnt just merely Dodge Amaterasu with ease. Seeing as it had already landed before Naruto had even noticed. Despite him knowing amaterasu was coming. The only other Shinobi who could dodge amaterasu and has shown to dodge amaterasu Was Hebi Sasuke with WHite snake and CS giving him Godlike speed. He even managed to outrun it.


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> there is the option he just pulls a tsunade.. he blocks amaterasu with his arm.. and just runs susanoo right through..



Manga knowledge

Third Raikage doesn't know Amaterasu. He won't try to block such attack coz he won't be sensing it charging up in the first place. 

Sasuke knows Raiton Armor so he'll be doing something about it.



> _also lol at eye contact doing jack shit.. if sasuke has eye contact(or any part of the raikages body) with the raikage he is going to be using amaterasu.._ anyway this is even without considering that the raikage is likely just as *immune as by the rapid synapse speed granted by raiton armor*..



italics - Amaterasu to 3RK's face (made easier through non-blinding Sharingan motion tracking) or genjutsu can go first then Amaterasu to the face.
bolded - raiton armor doesn't make you resistant, let alone immune to genjutsu



> anyway you presume sasuke can do multiple actions before sandiame is closing in.. which is unlikely with the superior reactions and speed of the sandaime..



Amaterasu is fast enough to incapacitate 3RK even before Sasuke does the option of doing a genjutsu. Genjutsu is a layer of defense behind Amaterasu and Enton-coated Susanoo.

BTW 4th Raikage's feats aren't applicable here because

1. Raikage had tag partners (Darui and C) and had intel on Sauce
2. 3RK has manga knowledge in this thread and he doesn't have any idea about what Sauce can do... while Sauce at least knows about Raiton no Yoroi and knows lightning jutsu when he sees one.
3. 3RK is slower than 4RK


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## Csdabest (May 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> there is the option he just pulls a tsunade.. he blocks amaterasu with his arm.. and just runs susanoo right through..


Yeah he is not running through Susano-o. He doesnt have the strength to do that. And if he gets caught. He would just simply get smothered with Amaterasu and end up being burned to a crisp when Sasuke focuses it on him.



> also lol at eye contact doing jack shit.. if sasuke has eye contact(or any part of the raikages body) with the raikage he is going to be using amaterasu.. anyway this is even without considering that the raikage is likely just as immune as by the rapid synapse speed granted by raiton armor..


 Danzo praised Sasuke for catching him in Tsukiyomi(despite it not being at the level of his brother). This is skilled ass genius level rivaling Hiruzen God of Shinobi Danzo w/ Sharingan. Also Ei was caught by Madara susano-o and forced to look at Madara eye and was caught by genjutsu and was screwed. A susano-o that was at a lower level than the one Sasuke is capable of now. Raikage Both of them were never immune to Genjutsu as demostrated by Madara

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Also just so you dont get it confused. On page 8 Raikage has his lightning shroud up. it doesnt drop until Madara fucks him over with genjutsu.



> anyway you presume sasuke can do multiple actions before sandiame is closing in.. which is unlikely with the superior reactions and speed of the sandaime..


At best sandaime is V1 Ei Speed. The same speed Sasuke kept up with w/ Ease. susano-o Can be summoned Instananeously as well

(5)
The blade was about 2 inches from his neck  and sasuke managed to summon Susano-o that quickly before it touched him as well broke the binding seal. 






> you are not serious are you???


Dead Serious. Sasuke>Saindame


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## Stermor (May 21, 2013)

titantron91 said:


> Manga knowledge
> 
> Third Raikage doesn't know Amaterasu. He won't try to block such attack coz he won't be sensing it charging up in the first place.
> 
> Sasuke knows Raiton Armor so he'll be doing something about it.



uhm any reason you would think sasuke is surviving past the first shunsin/hellbringer combi?? this is not going to happen at all.. 

sasuke is going to put up susanoo the moment he see a extremly fast big black guy shunsin towards him.. and then he going to try to light him up if he can.. 

in the same time sandiame is going to shunsin towards sasuke.. break his susanoo and pierce his heart.. 

the matchup will literly last a second.. and the only question here is can sasuke use amaterasu in time and wether it will be enough to kill the sandaime..


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## Cord (May 22, 2013)

From a five to ten meter range, I think Amaterasu is instantaneous.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Aaaannnd what's EMS Susano'o's best tanking feat, titantron91? Since unless it can take a Kurama empowered Futon: Rasenshuriken, it won't be blocking a one-finger Nukite. And with the Third Raikage's speed, he can easily get behind Susano'o and slash it on its weakpoint.



Why are you asking for a feat that you know, doesn't exist and has yet to be explored? The manga doesn't have all the evidences necessary to support every single claim, hence we go by the implications shown instead: If the physically strongest character in the manga only and _barely_ faired against an inferior version (ribcage) of Susano'o, under *what basis* are you assuming that a _'one finger Nukite'_ is going to breach something that has long been regarded as one of the greatest defenses in the manga?

Especially now that we're given the EMS hype- which I think, should outweigh whatever feats that Sasuke's Susano'o has previously displayed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And we haven't seen Amaterasu lasting for that duration, that should be considered hyperbole.



From the multiple occasions where Amaterasu has been utilized, we really never had a clear grasp on how the flames are supposed to be extinguished apart from them being either sealed or suppressed. There's a lot of hyperbolic sense surrounding its definition in the data book (ie: It's as hot as the sun). But we cannot safely conclude that everything that're written there are mere hyperbole- unless contradicted by the manga. We've also never seen the flames to voluntarily subside nor were they *indicated* to not really last that long. Hence why I think that the statement pointing to the duration of the flames engulfing its victim- still holds some merit.

Granted that the Sandaime Raikage was indicated to have battled for three consecutive days, he should be able to momentarily survive Amaterasu. He'd still be ultimately and completely consumed by it, nonetheless.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 22, 2013)

From the way the Sandaime Raikage, current Sasuke - as well as his powers - have been portrayed, I have a lot of trouble seeing or believing that the Sandaime Raikage's Ippon Nukite would be able to pierce Sasuke's new Susano'o. Taking Kishimoto's author intent into account, it's quite clear that Sasuke is on a new level with his powers, and while the Raikage's attack is very strong, I don't think this new Susano'o was made with the intent that a simple attack compared to Chidori would be able to bust through it like A did with the rib cage version. As far as striking power goes, I rate A and his father on quite a similar level, which the Sandaime Raikage obviously having the advantage due to piercing power. A was only able to barely bust through the rib-cage version of Susano'o with an enraged attack. I don't think the Sandaime Raikage can break through the penultimate Susano'o.  Worst case scenario is that it would be able to crack a hole in it, but would result in him getting caught on fire due to Enton.


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## Sans (May 22, 2013)

The way the manga has been written, I can safely say that Kishi would not write Sasuke losing to the Sandaime Raikage.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 22, 2013)

This is a clear victory on Sasuke's side, here.

Although, it is due to Sasuke's spam-ready availability of Amaterasu. Sandaime Raikage has only been compared to his son's V1 Lightning Shroud; Sasuke was already quite confident in nailing the latter with Amaterasu despite already witnessing Ei's V1 speed. Sandaime, unfortunately, hasn't displayed the feats to evade such a high-speed projectile. Given that, it's only a matter of attrition until the flames eat through his shroud and consume him.

I believe One-Finger Nukite can pierce EMS Sasuke's Susano'o, for the reason that the chakra construct's durability can only be attributed to MS Sasuke's version, as we've no feats in that regard for the EMS version. Susano'o may very well become stronger and more durable with the ocular upgrade, but to the level of a spear stronger than the Rasenshuriken? Remains to be seen.

In any case, Sasuke wins.


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## BMC1994 (May 23, 2013)

The raikage could go for a win if he goes for the one finger nukite as the start of the fight.

The third tanked rasenshuriken(in kcm) like in was nothing , Meanwhile his nukite was able to pierce his armor.

Sasukes Bow and Arrow susanoo has been sliced apart by a simple windjutsu from danzo , i dont see the complete version tanking rasenshuriken nor one finger nukite( btw nukite is way above chidori in every way , chidori didnt even manage to tickle A )

Also my understanding of EMS was simply that it could be used indefinitely , i dont see why it would serve as a straight power up.

The third should be able to pierce sauces susanoo. And seeing how he tanked amaterasu and that Wind net jutsu done by an entire group he should be able to endure amaterasu for quite a while , especially with his raiton no yoroi.

Sasuke wins if he manages not get murked in the very beginning. Maybe with a genjutsu or something.


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## Csdabest (May 23, 2013)

BMC1994 said:


> The raikage could go for a win if he goes for the one finger nukite as the start of the fight.
> 
> The third tanked rasenshuriken(in kcm) like in was nothing , Meanwhile his nukite was able to pierce his armor.
> 
> ...



That simple wind jutsu was applified both uchiha and senju chakra not to mention a legendary WIND  type Summoning which made it stronger. And even then it bearly got through. It made a small opening in Susnao-o Armor


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## Bonly Jr. (May 23, 2013)

Sasukes simply excretes on Sandaime's face.


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## Kai (May 23, 2013)

Sasuke continuously barrages Sandaime with Enton arrows and Amaterasu until the juggernaut falls from nonstop accumulation of damage.

Sasuke should be clearly above any kage one vs one from the other villages. The only Kage that can come close to defeating him is Onoki.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> That simple wind jutsu was applified both *uchiha and senju chakra *not to mention a legendary WIND  type Summoning which made it stronger. And even then it bearly got through. It made a small opening in Susnao-o Armor



Since when do either of those two amplify techniques?  

It's not like natural chakra which molds with your own chakra source so that every facet of your techniques are drastically improved.


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## Dr. White (May 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Since when do either of those two amplify techniques?
> 
> It's not like natural chakra which molds with your own chakra source so that every facet of your techniques are drastically improved.



Senju chakra, moreover Hashirama chakra boost stats similair to Sage Mode but on a lesser level this is very indicative:due to it's yang nature.
-Gave Obito ability to spam MS, and allows him to reuse forbidden techniques like Izanagi.
-Zetsu's Spore Jutsu was able to restore chakra by those carrying it, and we know all of his powers stem from Hashirama.
-Tsunade(powerful due to her Senju lineage) has ridiculous base physical stats,and a gigantic chakra pool.
-Allowed Danzo to use 13 sharingan and utilize Izanagi/Koto as a non uchiha.
-Onooki was completely charged to destroy 25 Susano's by Tsunade's boosting.

also Kai soloed.


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## Empathy (May 23, 2013)

Hashirama's DNA (not any ol' Senju's) is the only one that's shown to grant such enhancements. Tsunade's physical strength and ability to heal or transfer her own chakra can be attributed to her and her own abilities. I don't believe her strength has ever been stated as a result of being a descendant of Hashirama or just being a Senju (or all Senju before and after Hashirama should have it). I also reckon Uchiha DNA has never been said to grant any enhancements either.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Senju chakra, moreover Hashirama chakra boost stats similair to Sage Mode but on a lesser level this is very indicative:due to it's yang nature.



Where is it stated that Hashirama's chakra 'boosts stats'? The only occasions wherein it does so are situations where Bijuu are involved; Hashirama's 'cells' or, chakra, strengthen the ability to control such entities.

Which is irrelevant to Csdabest's claim that it enhances regular techniques, like Danzo's Fuuton.


> -Tsunade*(powerful due to her Senju lineage)* has ridiculous base physical stats,and a gigantic chakra pool.



You know this how? Find me evidence where Tsunade's physical strength is at all attributed to her lineage.



> > -Gave Obito ability to spam MS, and allows him to reuse forbidden techniques like Izanagi.
> > -Zetsu's Spore Jutsu was able to restore chakra by those carrying it, and we know all of his powers stem from Hashirama.
> 
> 
> -Allowed Danzo to use 13 sharingan and utilize Izanagi/Koto as a non uchiha.



See above.



> -Onooki was completely charged to destroy 25 Susano's by Tsunade's boosting.



What? Tsunade merely refilled his chakra capacity; there is nothing to indicate that she somehow increased the actual power of the techniques.


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## egressmadara (May 23, 2013)

_Genjutsu is the way to go._


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## Dr. White (May 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> > Where is it stated that Hashirama's chakra 'boosts stats'? The only occasions wherein it does so are situations where Bijuu are involved; Hashirama's 'cells' or, chakra, strengthen the ability to control such entities.
> 
> 
> It has been made abundantly clear that Hashirama's cells power one up. I wouldn't go ahead and apply it to base jutsu, I was just arguing your premise to be honest.
> ...


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> It has been made abundantly clear that Hashirama's cells power one up. I wouldn't go ahead and apply it to base jutsu, I was just arguing your premise to be honest.



I was only referring to base jutsu (given that that was Csdabest's premise), so in all honesty... you were just arguing something entirely irrelevant. 



> It doesn't just replenishes you or gives an extra boost.



I'm assuming you're talking about Tsunade healing Onoki? You didn't exactly quote anything. But yes, I have no reason to believe Onoki having the firepower to take out 25 Susano'o was anything out of his original capacity as you imply with Tsunade's 'super-enhancing healing'; his chakra fill was simply refilled.



> Can't really prove that one just a guess seeing as she displays Hashirama like qualities.



Impressive argument.


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## Okodi (May 23, 2013)

Seeing how the manga is going I agree that Kishi has probably set Sasuke's Susanoo levels to the extreme, and rival Madara as stated above. Though I do not believe that Amaterasu would work against the 3rd Raikage as easily as it did against Ei. The Thirds shield was said to be the strongest and it would take quite some time for it to burn through his defens.

This guy could tank a bijuudama head on and take a FRS. Amaterasu is going to take quite some time before burning through like it did against Ei. If Amaterasu burns too slowly on the Raikages shield then Sasuke will lose. If it doesn't then it will be Sasuke's win. Considering (Madara's) Perfect Susanoo is on par/above bijuu level I won't consider Sasuke's Susanoo to be above bijuu level yet in terms of power and therefore any other attacks from the Susanoo is going to down the 3rd Raikage.

So basically, if Sasuke's Amaterasus and Entons can burn the Raikage's shield fast enough then he will win seeing how no other ninjutsus will work. Tsukiyomi may also be a candidate.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2013)

Okodi said:


> This guy could tank a bijuudama head on



Nope. Common misconception.


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## Stermor (May 24, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> From the way the Sandaime Raikage, current Sasuke - as well as his powers - have been portrayed, I have a lot of trouble seeing or believing that the Sandaime Raikage's Ippon Nukite would be able to pierce Sasuke's new Susano'o. Taking Kishimoto's author intent into account, it's quite clear that Sasuke is on a new level with his powers, and while the Raikage's attack is very strong, I don't think this new Susano'o was made with the intent that a simple attack compared to Chidori would be able to bust through it like A did with the rib cage version. As far as striking power goes, I rate A and his father on quite a similar level, which the Sandaime Raikage obviously having the advantage due to piercing power. A was only able to barely bust through the rib-cage version of Susano'o with an enraged attack. I don't think the Sandaime Raikage can break through the penultimate Susano'o.  Worst case scenario is that it would be able to crack a hole in it, but would result in him getting caught on fire due to Enton.



hell bringer was hyped quite alot more.. combine that with hellbringer beeing beyond frs.. 

while really the attacks that ripped through the previous versions of sasuke where not even close to a frs.. let alone a attack superior to frs.. 

raikages attacks did get through superior susanoo's then sasuke (madara's).. also what do you base the breaking barely through ribcage susanoo?? seemed like it broke susanoo just as expected? 

then you also have madara.. saying frs was a bit to much.. 

but really not seeing why author intent would be worth more then those relativly clear feats and statements.. 

anyway author intent is also subjective.. since the author always had sasuke helped.. he always falls short.. it really wouldn't be much a suprise if that happens with ems aswell....


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