# Top 5 best and worst manga series you've ever read.



## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

These kinds of threads are always fun once in a while until their eventual fiery end. 
Post your personal top 5 best and worst series you've ever read.

Quite hard for me to choose, but;

*Best*
1. Oyasumi Punpun
2. Hunter x Hunter
3. Major
4. Sakigake!! Cromartie Koukou
5. Hikari no Machi
Honorable mentions to; Historie, Kingdom, Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer, Tonnura-san, Vinland Saga, Beelzebub, Steel Ball Run, Crows, Bakuman, Slam Dunk, Fullmetal Alchemist, and One Piece.

*Worst*
1. Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
2. Takamagahara
3. SWOT
4. Elfen Lied
5. Yaotsukumo 
Dishonorable mentions to; Naruto, Hungry Joker, Bleach, Katekyo Hitman Reborn!, and 666 Satan.


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## Blαck (Jun 17, 2013)

Best in no Particular order;
*Veritas
Full metal Alchemist
YYH
Feng shen ji
One Piece*

Worst, though honestly I haven't read anything I'd consider terrible, so maybe just;
*Fairy Tail*


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

*Best*

Rurouni Kenshin
Deadman Wonderland
Berserk
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Dragon Ball

*Worst*

Psyren
Bleach
Fairy Tail
Ultimo
Dr. Slump


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Best*
> Deadman Wonderland



Not trying to start a fight or anything seeing how I promised myself no matter how disgusted I got I wouldn't be mean, but how can you possibly consider that one of the best manga of all time? I mean, I can understand it being a guilty pleasure, but on somebodies top 5?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

considering you've left FMA in 'honorable mentions' but put HxH in the list proper, and made the same choice with Slam Dunk and Vinland Saga, you have no room to talk

FMA absolutely dicks on HxH. Vinland Saga is far better. so's Slam Dunk


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

and before you say any shit about >personal top 5 and >what are opinions



> mean, but how can you possibly consider that one of the best manga of all time?



it's one of his personal top 5 so what are you complaining about, dingus


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Not trying to start a fight or anything seeing how I promised myself no matter how disgusted I got I wouldn't be mean, but how can you possibly consider that one of the best manga of all time? I mean, I can understand it being a guilty pleasure, but on somebodies top 5?



Prior to the Forgeries, it was fully deserving of being a consideration for anybody's top 5; interesting characters, interesting setup, interesting powers, intriguing mysteries and well-executed revelations... It did lose some of its momentum as the story dragged on, but it still manages to be engaging. I would still consider it a good manga; maybe not a great manga, but a good manga. The writing has been pretty weak since the author came back from maternity leave, but it's obvious the series is being rushed to a conclusion and it's still not quite fair to judge it until we've seen the result.

The fact that it made my top 5 list can be explained by the simple facts that I haven't actually read all that much manga in the first place, few of the manga I've read would even be considered "good" in my book, and the only types of series competing with it for my preference are mostly like...Naruto, One Piece, Soul Eater, and such. Not exactly an all-star lineup. I was considering Toriko as an option as well, but I'm not even half-way caught up yet and I honestly find it to be a pretty mediocre/standard shounen so far anyway, in contrast to the hordes of fans raving about what a remarkable standout it is.

I tend to gravitate more towards anime; I'll only read a manga if it strikes me as something particularly interesting and/or there isn't an adequate anime adaptation to watch as an alternative.

So as much as I'd prefer to throw series like Fullmetal Alchemist and Fist of the North Star up there instead, I haven't really read them that much- my primary exposure has been to their anime. It is what it is.


EDIT: Also, what Lucaniel said. Word-for-word.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> considering you've left FMA in 'honorable mentions' but put HxH in the list proper, and made the same choice with Slam Dunk and Vinland Saga, you have no room to talk
> 
> FMA absolutely dicks on HxH. Vinland Saga is far better. so's Slam Dunk



You've never even read HxH so you have no room to talk.
And FMA had a pretty mediocre ending and final arc.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Prior to the Forgeries, it was fully deserving of being a consideration for anybody's top 5; interesting characters, interesting setup, interesting powers, intriguing mysteries and well-executed revelations... It did lose some of its momentum as the story dragged on, but it still manages to be engaging. I would still consider it a good manga; maybe not a great manga, but a good manga. The writing has been pretty weak since the author came back from maternity leave, but it's obvious the series is being rushed to a conclusion and it's still not quite fair to judge it until we've seen the result.
> 
> The fact that it made my top 5 list can be explained by the simple facts that I haven't actually read all that much manga in the first place, few of the manga I've read would even be considered "good" in my book, and the only types of series competing with it for my preference are mostly like...Naruto, One Piece, Soul Eater, and such. Not exactly an all-star lineup. I was considering Toriko as an option as well, but I'm not even half-way caught up yet and I honestly find it to be a pretty mediocre/standard shounen so far anyway, in contrast to the hordes of fans raving about what a remarkable standout it is.
> 
> ...



Deadman Wonderland has always been incredibly edgy, generic, and just bad. And you read Naruto... I'm going to stop responding to you because I'm beginning to just get angry.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

u wot?

i've read HxH



> And FMA had a pretty mediocre ending and final arc.



careful with those edges son


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## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Best in no order:
Hellsing
FMA
Rurouni Kenshin
Berserk
Hoshi no Samidare

Worst:
Pick any of 800 series I started and dropped. 




Lucaniel said:


> considering you've left FMA in 'honorable mentions' but put HxH in the list proper, and made the same choice with Slam Dunk and Vinland Saga, you have no room to talk
> 
> FMA absolutely dicks on HxH. Vinland Saga is far better. so's Slam Dunk



Gentleman of fine taste here


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Deadman Wonderland has always been incredibly edgy, generic, and just bad.



I disagree; the series had a strong start and, like I said, was a valid consideration for anybody's top 5 in its hayday.

Obviously personal taste is a factor in what kinds of series make it into one's top 5, but as far as shounen action/tragedy manga go, DW brought something fresh to the table and did everything right up to a certain point.

"Edgy"? Hell yes. Generic? Not a chance.



> And you read Naruto... I'm going to stop responding to you because I'm beginning to just get angry.



This is a Naruto board... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume everyone here reads Naruto or has done so at some point in their lives.

I don't like it any more than you do, but I figure if I stuck with it this long already, it's no skin off my nose to watch how the train wrecks.

That said, I can tell that you're a troll, and I respect that, but trolling is supposed to make _other_ people angry, not yourself. You're doing it wrong.


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## Magician (Jun 17, 2013)




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## Magician (Jun 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That said, I can tell that you're a troll, and I respect that, but trolling is supposed to make _other_ people angry, not yourself. You're doing it wrong.



Of all the times to be 24'd.


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## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

BD said:


> Of all the times to be 24'd.



I got you bro.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Generic? Not a chance.



Have you only read like, 3 manga in your entire life? Deadman Wonderlands concept has been done a million times before. Just because it has blood doesn't make it original.

And no, I'm not a troll. I'm just a patrician who knows what he is talking about.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

>unironically describing yourself as patrician

my sides


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 17, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> >unironically describing yourself as patrician
> 
> my sides



You enjoy Zack Snyder films, you are not one to tell me that I'm not a patrician. 

Anyways, I'm heading to bed. I'll see what this thread has turned into in the morning. I thought this would be a good, fun, productive thread, but of course people always have to go and ruin it...


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## ~Howling~ (Jun 17, 2013)

Go back on hiatus man .


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## Magician (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> You enjoy Zack Snyder films, you are not one to tell me that I'm not a patrician.
> 
> Anyways, I'm heading to bed. I'll see what this thread has turned into in the morning. I thought this would be a good, fun, productive thread, *but of course people always have to go and ruin it..*.



The irony. 

That's what I like about you, you always manage to make me laugh.


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## Alita (Jun 17, 2013)

Not gonna list 5 since that would require deeper thinking on my part.

My fav manga is Battle angel alita/last order and my most hated is bleach or if I can include anime, digimon.

And I'm curious to know, what did you find so bad about 666 satan?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> You enjoy Zack Snyder films, you are not one to tell me that I'm not a patrician.
> 
> Anyways, I'm heading to bed. I'll see what this thread has turned into in the morning. I thought this would be a good, fun, productive thread, but of course people always have to go and ruin it...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Have you only read like, 3 manga in your entire life? Deadman Wonderlands concept has been done a million times before. Just because it has blood doesn't make it original.



Maybe my horizons are pretty limited, but I don't think a middle schooler being framed for mass-homicide and shipped off to a maximum security prison system/psychic blood mutant farm wherein he is forced to participate in a series of gladiator-style deathmatches with other superpowered inmates and must engineer his escape while seeking vengeance on the enemy responsible for his confinement has been done very many times.

Call it a hunch.



> And no, I'm not a troll. I'm just a patrician who knows what he is talking about.






Patricia is a girl's name.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

even if you just boil it down to the 'forced into deathmatches' part, all i can think of is battle royale


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## gundampiece (Jun 17, 2013)

Best

1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
2. Saikyou Densetsu Kurosawa
3. Vagabond
4. Berserk
5. REAL

Worst

1. Hunter x Hunter
2. Fairy Tail
3. Bakuman
4. Ikki Tousen
5. Blood Lad


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## Eisenheim (Jun 17, 2013)

>self proclaimed patrician
my fucking sides


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## Finvarra (Jun 17, 2013)

I dont read a lot of manga really but I guess I will go with:-

Best:-
Hunter X Hunter
Claymore
Breaker (First and second.)
Witch hunter, I just really like this one but its not realy popular or anything.


Worst not gona list as I dont manage to read much of any in that list.

Note: I delibratly failed to list Naurto, Bleach, One Peace and fairy tail. Anybody who says they have not read or watched Naurto, Bleach or One Peace is missing out, althrough weather or not your fan by the time you finish reading/watching is anouther question. All 3 are good. But they have sucky momments like anything that has run for years I guess.

I recently introduced two 27 year olds to one peace and they think its amazing. Age does not seem to mater, but watching or reading after stock piling huge amounts does allow you to glose over fillers.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 17, 2013)

*Best*
Monster 
20th Century Boys
Battle Royale
Umineko
One Piece

*Worst*
Air Gear
Bjorg Trinity

 Not sure about 3 more.


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## PPsycho (Jun 17, 2013)

*Best*- something along those lines:
Yotsuba
20th Century Boys
Dorohedoro
Blade of the Immortal
FMA
Honorable mention to Tower of God which is currently my favorite title that I follow weekly.

The only two titles that I can describe as my *worst* are Suzuka and Freezing. Maybe some other too, but don't remember.

Also, lol at the OP, complaining about the shit he started himself.


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## VanzZz (Jun 17, 2013)

gundampiece said:


> Worst
> 
> 
> *5. Blood Lad*



 

EDIT:

Best: 

Berserk
Feng Shen Ji
Gintama
One Piece
Onani Master Kurosawa
Vagabond
Veritas 

Worst:

Air Gear
Fairy Fail
GE: Good Ending
Kimi no Iru Machi (or anything by Seo Koji )
Nabari no Ou


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## Black Mirror (Jun 17, 2013)

Dat thread is good 

Best:

One Piece
Hellsing
Vagabond
Vinland Saga
FMA
(Tower of God - not a manga .-.)

I prefer the first anime of FMA, liked the end of it much more.

Berserk is epic but I doubt it will be ever finished. Would probably replace FMA.

Bad: (Worst mangas, i succesfully managed to forget, so only the bad ones, I stilll remember and read .-.)

Naruto - epic start with Zabuza and Chuunin exams. The rest is a gay love story and ugh... Still reading it for lolsakura, lolsauce, lolkishi, lolmadara, oh and lolobito ofc.

Bleach - Good interesting start followed by altered copypasta and many confusions explained with more confusions and "aizen". Ironically it's still enjoyable because lulz and lolkubo trololol and kubo's self-portrait: aizen 

Fairy Tail - ugh, I really thought it would be a good manga at the beginning...

Gantz - sadly. After Kurono was removed from the story, it became really boring. His strange comeback didn't make it better for me sadly...

D. Gray Man - It was really good for a long time but atm it's just very vey boring and like HxH it's on a random break, so the authors pbbly stoped caring about it.


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## 8 (Jun 17, 2013)

i always have trouble compiling such lists. mostly because it forces to compare apples with oranges. also its very subjective what exactly is "good". for example if you made me pick which one is better between beelzebub and monster. i guess both are good for what they are. i would state that monster is a much more professional piece. it has such interesting and fleshed out characters beelzebub can't even compare. they make oga and gang look like a bunch of bland and retarded toddlers. monster has story, great build up, tension, its better in so many ways. while beelzebub is just stupid fights and silly humor.

yet if i'm completely honest with myself, i'd have to admit when reading beelzebub i'm having much more fun. i'm actually laughing and enjoying myself, having a better time then if it was monster (not that monster wasn't enjoyable). i guess i'm just much easier entertained with comedy then drama. i don't mind drama though. 

in the end manga was just a way to waste my time in an enjoyable way. just entertainment. nothing more. then i guess the better manga for me personally would be the one that entertained me better while i was wasting my time. so in that case although my brain tells me monster deserves the title and is easily the better piece of work, for me personally i pick beelzebub as the better (more enjoyable) manga. beelzebub 10/10, monster 9/10.

with that out of the way. best manga:
- one piece
- one punch man
- berserk
- onani master kurosawa
- beelzebub

worst manga.. i don't know. there's so much crap. and most of them erased from my memory. the dumbest one i still remember must be swot.


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## Mυgen (Jun 17, 2013)

Best manga : 
- Dragonball
- One Piece
- FMA (especially first anime story)
- Samurai Champloo (allthough it's an anime I still got to include it)
- First parts of Naruto and Bleach (yeah they're amazing, but sadly there was a steep decline)
- Shaman King

Worst Manga:
- Fairy tail (started nice but evolved into a 16 page fanservice manga)
- HxH (actually the story is one of my favorites but the inconsant art quality and several hiatus really ruined the manga for me personaly)
- D-Gray Man (same story as HxH, allthough Hoshina has something with her hand I beleve that prevents her to continue the manga properly)
- The rest I can't even remember.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 17, 2013)

Best

 - Kiseijuu/Parasyte
 - Vagabond 
 - Jojo's Bizarre Adventure 
 - Crows/Worst
 - Devilman 

Worst

 - Fairy Tail 
 - Bleach 
 - Naruto 
 - Katekyo Hitman Reborn

No need for a fifth


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jun 17, 2013)

Lots of Ad Hominem running rampant on this thread.

As for the list... can I include stuff that were only released as anime? If I can, here is the top 10:

1- One Piece (manga/anime)
2- Fullmetal Alchemist (manga)
3- Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (anime)
4- 20th Century Boys (manga)
5- Death Note (anime)
6- Code Geass (anime)
7- Dragonball Z (anime)
8- Shaman King (manga)
9- Hellsing (manga)
10- History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi (manga)

I'm not sure what are the worst things I've read, though...



8 said:


> i always have trouble compiling such lists




So do I, I change the list every time I make it.


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## ~Avant~ (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:
Shin Angyo Onshi
Bastard!!
Rave Master
Houshin Engi
Berserk

Worst:
Hitman Reborn
Tenjo Tenge
Air Gear
07 Ghost


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## MrCinos (Jun 17, 2013)

*Best:*
Monster
Sanctuary
7Seeds
Violinist of Hameln
Gintama/Sket Dance

*Worst:*
Rakuda ga Warau
Tokyo Metro Explorer 	 	 
Exon Depot 	 	 
Boiling Head  
An Inquiry Concerning A Mechanistic Worldview of the Pituitary Gland


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## Golden Witch (Jun 17, 2013)

MrCinos said:


> *Best:*
> Monster
> Sanctuary
> 7Seeds
> ...



The hell?


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## Syed (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:

1. Full Metal Alchemist

2. Battle Angel Alita

3. HunterXHunter

4. Jo Jo Bizarre adventure

5. Ranma 1/2

Despise:

1. Psyren

2. TenjouTenge  

3. Air Gear

4. Any manga I hate

5. Any manga I hate (there are a lot)


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## Han Solo (Jun 17, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> even if you just boil it down to the 'forced into deathmatches' part, all i can think of is battle royale



Btooom!

Worst 5:

Gantz
Air Gear
Tenjo Tenge
Kampfer
The Qwaser of Stigmata

And also every single harem/moe/fanservice garbage.


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## The Doctor (Jun 17, 2013)

Han Solo said:


> The Qwaser of Stigmata
> 
> And also every single harem/moe/fanservice garbage.


isn't this one about titty milk power?


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## Han Solo (Jun 17, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> isn't this one about titty milk power?



Yeah, that's the one. Tbh it did make me laugh for a minute before I thought of just how retarded it was.


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## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

Toriko
Hsdk
buster keel
Kongou banchou
Fma

This list changes though..


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## Justice (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:                                 
Berserk                             
Vagabond                         
Hunter x Hunter
JJBA
Battle Royale

Worst:
Fairy Tail


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## Mist Puppet (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:
Yotsuba&!
Touch
Cross Game
Solanin
Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer

Worst:
KHR
Naruto

Can't think of anything else for worst


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## God Movement (Jun 17, 2013)

Best (this is going to be hard)

Naruto
KHR
Fairy Tail

Worst

One Piece
Dragon Ball
Bastard
Yu Yu Hakusho
Fist of the North Star


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## Syed (Jun 17, 2013)

God Movement said:


> Best (this is going to be hard)
> 
> Naruto
> KHR
> ...



LOL


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

God Movement said:


> Best (this is going to be hard)
> 
> Naruto
> KHR
> ...



Looks like somebody already beat me to it, but


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## Kanki (Jun 17, 2013)

Well I've only read 5, so I can only rank them...

1. Naruto/OP
2. Naruto/OP
3. Death Note
4. Gangsta
5. Bleach

All still going, bar DN.


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## SinRaven (Jun 17, 2013)

best: 

1. fullmetal alchemist
2. shingeki no kyojin
3. tokyo esp
4. death note
5. rave

worst:

1. bleach

only manga i really dislike.


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## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

@ Kakashi 

Damn broaden your horizons bro.


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## Ari (Jun 17, 2013)

*best:*

elfen lied
fma
gin no saji
otoyomegatari
souten no koumori

*worst:*

fairy tail
m-my balls!
one piece
to love ru
??


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## Samavarti (Jun 17, 2013)

*Best*

Lone Wolf and Cub
Nausica? of the Valley of the Wind
Oyasumi Punpun
Takemitsu Zamurai
Music of Marie

*Worst*

Gantz
Fairy Tail
Air Gear
Tenjo Tenge
City of Darkness


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## Xiammes (Jun 17, 2013)

I don't read that much manga, so I really can't compile a list of my most disliked.

1)Needless
2)Pokemon Special
3)FMA
4)Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei
5)Dragonball


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2013)

Best. 
One piece
Toriko
FMA
Beyond this i have no idea. 

Worst. 
Fairy tail(Worst manga i have ever read)
naruto


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## Yuki (Jun 17, 2013)

All dis FT hate .

Best.
Dragon Ball
One Piece
FMA
Rave
Gintama

Worst.
I don't hate any, sorry but i don't. If i hate them i stop reading them and forget they ever existed.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2013)

Cause its shit Zeref.

Also its worst mangas you have read, not mangas you hate. I don't hate Bleach but its still one of the worst mangas i have ever read.

For example say the only manga i have read were the Big three, Soul eater, Claymore and say HDSK. I don't hate any of those mangas but my least favorite of those would be Naruto, and as such its on my list lol


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## Shiroyasha (Jun 17, 2013)

I can give a top 5 best, but not worst.

1. Berserk
2. Holyland
3. Shingetsutan Tsukihime
4. Pluto
5. Fullmetal Alchemist


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## Bruce Wayne (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:
1. Dragonball
2. Naruto
3. Toriko (finally caught up )
4. Slam Dunk
5. JJBA(still catching up :amazed)

Worst:
1. Bleach
2. Fairy Tail
3. To Love Ru


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## Yuki (Jun 17, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Cause its shit Zeref.
> 
> Also its worst mangas you have read, not mangas you hate. I don't hate Bleach but its still one of the worst mangas i have ever read.
> 
> For example say the only manga i have read were the Big three, Soul eater, Claymore and say HDSK. I don't hate any of those mangas but my least favorite of those would be Naruto, and as such its on my list lol



Hmm, yea your right . FT is probably on my worst 5 as well. .


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## Blunt (Jun 17, 2013)

Best: Tower of God, Kubera, Sengoku Youko, Trace, FMA

Worst: JJBA Part 1, Fairy Tail, D. Gray-man, KHR, Air Gear

Honorable mention for best is It's Not My Fault I'm Not Popular.


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## Gin (Jun 17, 2013)

Only read 4 mangas (and only in part at that)

=1. OP
=1. Berserk
3. SnK
4. Bleach


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

Blunt said:


> Worst: JJBA Part 1


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## egressmadara (Jun 17, 2013)

Quality:
1. Vinland Saga
2. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
3. Bastard!!
4. Vagabond/Berserk
5. One-Punch Man
Honorable Mention: Monster (would have included it here but I've only watched the anime), Trigun


Shit:
1. Rosario
2. Fairy Tail


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## Sablés (Jun 17, 2013)

Best
Vinland Saga
Berserk (GA)
Shaman King
Akame Ga Kiru
Bleach

Worst

Fairy Tail
KHR
Naruto
To Love Ru (wtf was I thinking)

Don't think I can truly call any manga I've read terrible (except KHR and FT) just disappointing


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 17, 2013)

Blunt said:


> Best: Tower of God, Kubera, Sengoku Youko, Trace, FMA
> 
> Worst: JJBA Part 1, Fairy Tail, D. Gray-man, KHR, Air Gear
> 
> Honorable mention for best is It's Not My Fault I'm Not Popular.



JJBA Part 1.


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## Sablés (Jun 17, 2013)

Forgive him, his tastes are not yet fully developed.


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## Gin (Jun 17, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> Forgive him, his tastes are not yet fully developed.


Faggotry like this is largely the reason why I have no desire to read JJBA.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

that's really no different to the way a lot of other manga fandoms react to that sort of thing

so...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 17, 2013)

Gin said:


> Faggotry like this is largely the reason why I have no desire to read JJBA.


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## Justice (Jun 17, 2013)

Bruce Wayne said:


> Best:
> 1. Dragonball
> 2. Naruto
> 3. Toriko (finally caught up )
> ...



That's my boy.


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## Reyes (Jun 17, 2013)

Top 5 Best:
1. Vinland Saga or Slam Dunk
2. JJBA
3. FMA
4. OP
5. Yu Yu Hakusho

Worse:
Fairy Tail, KHR Love Hina and Air Gear


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## Null (Jun 17, 2013)

For my personal Favourites;
1. HunterxHunter
2. FMA
3. One Piece
4. Yu Yu Hakusho
5. Soul Eater

worst

Fairytail, Love Hina, Negima, Air Gear


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## Gin (Jun 17, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> that's really no different to the way a lot of other manga fandoms react to that sort of thing
> 
> so...


The JJBA fandom has been by far the most outspoken in my experience.   Excluding the big 3 I guess.


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## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

From what I've read (which isn't much but eh)

JJBA
Shin Angyo Onshi
Tower of God
Yu Yu Hakusho
Sun-Ken Rock (current arc is terrible though imo)

Not really far enough in Vinland Saga to really give judgement on it, but I'm guessing it'll be up there

The only absolutely terrible Manga I've read really is Freezing and I didn't even last one chapter nor do I know why I bothered


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 17, 2013)

This is the closest to my top 5 currently I think.. number 5 could change. 
1. Kongou Bancho
2. JoJo Bizarre Adventure
3. City Hunter
4. Angel Densetsu
5. Tower of God

Worst
1. GE - Good ending -Finished it. It sucked. 
2. Air gear - dropped after the trident
3. Freezing - dropped after one of the girl transformed
4. To Love-ru - dropped after 20+ chapter
5. Seikon no Qwasar - dropped after a few chapters


----------



## manidk (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:

Shin Angyo Onshi
JJBA
FMA
Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer
Kekkaishi

Worst:

Freezing
Freezing
Freezing
Freezing
Freezing


----------



## Patrick (Jun 17, 2013)

Lots of good manga, but I felt that these ones really stood out in terms of quality. 

Best:
1. Vagabond
2. Fullmetal Alchemist
3. Slam Dunk
4. Berserk
5. One Piece

Worst:
HxH, really, overhyped piece of trash made by an overhyped piece of trash


----------



## Magician (Jun 17, 2013)

Best:

1. One Piece
2. Full Metal Alchemist
3. 20th Century Boys
4. Shingeki no Kyojin
5. Bleach

Worst:

Fairy Tail
KHR

^Are the only ones I actively dislike with a passion.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 17, 2013)

patrick4life said:


> Worst:
> HxH, really, overhyped piece of trash made by an overhyped piece of trash



nensense

neeeeeeeeeeenseeeeeense

come out, come out, wherever you are


----------



## Snowless (Jun 17, 2013)

Well, I watch a lot more anime than I read manga. 

But, here's a few:
Best:

One Piece
FMA
Rurouni Kenshin, largely because it's nostalgic and I read them as a kid.

Worst: 

Naruto
Bleach (but if it keeps up the recent quality, it's moving off of this list.)
King of Hell


I've watched a lot more animes, but I suppose it's unfair the base the manga off of just the anime if I technically haven't read it.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

patrick4life said:


> Worst:
> HxH, really, overhyped piece of trash made by an overhyped piece of trash



I don't disagree with this. Why does HxH have such a vocal fanbase? YYH was much, much better and unlike HxH, Togashi never drew YYH with his left foot.

And even YYH was good at best.


----------



## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

Togashi stacks paper to the roof though.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

Doesn't do anything
Still makes it into top 10 sales

Putting up with that art alone...he sure has some loyal fans


----------



## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

I don't exactly get it either.

Lets not talk shit on him though, or his number 1 fan will come to his defense.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

It's too late Brohan, the bell has already been rung


----------



## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

Nikushimi put it well:

Trolling that only makes himself angry. 

Unless he's really that socially akward.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

Yeah I missed that part of the argument initially
The best part 

I don't see how someone _reading Naruto_ can even get you angry in the first place
That is some backwards logic


----------



## Marcο (Jun 17, 2013)

Best (in no order): Vagabond, Berserk, Vinland Saga, ToG, One Piece.

Honourable mentions to FMA, Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk and Historie

Worst: Katekyo Hitman Reborn, Fairy Tail, Naruto.


----------



## Tray (Jun 17, 2013)

Worst 5:

Fairy Tail

KHR

Sailor Moon

Mermaid Melody

Blue Exorcist


----------



## Magician (Jun 17, 2013)

The shit storm that's bound to come in this thread will be glorious.


----------



## Mako (Jun 17, 2013)

Looks like I'll pitch in.

Best (so far/no particular order):
Shingeki no Kyojin (just got into; it looks promising)
Fullmetal Alchemist
Vagabond
One Piece
HxH
Ao No Exorcist
Dragonball

Meh status:
Bleach
Bakuman (just started; meh)
Magi

Bad:
Fairy Tail (I thought it had a great beginning lol)
I know there's one more...


----------



## Toriko (Jun 17, 2013)

> Ao No Exorcist



Is this any better than the anime?


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Toriko said:


> Is this any better than the anime?



No contrived retarded ending, that's about it.


----------



## Fujita (Jun 17, 2013)

Best (in no particular order)

Dorohedoro: May not be what I consider the absolute best I've read, but by far my absolute favorite. Art that's best described as deranged, very interesting characters (though they're less about any complex realism than a very fun take on various forms of mental disorders ), and a meandering plot that takes you on a crash course through the world. Which, by the way, is phenomenal. 

Biomega: Only work by Nihei that I've read all of, gets stuck here for the vast world, simple but effective characterization and a lovely grand-spanning apocalyptic plot that still somehow boils down to a guy on a motorcycle. 

Soil: Fucking weird mystery story, with a unique art style. Fascinating characters (unlike Doro, more of the realistic type), creepy and creative plot lines, just a general brain twisting experience. Quite a bit of social commentary too. This is one that I need to keep reading but sorta forgot a good chunk of the plot. 

Tower of God: Putting it here for the setting alone. And the way that the characters get shunted into this hybrid video game slash grand  myth thing that's just awesome as all hell. Quite good characters too.

And I sort of run out of ideas right about there. I'd add stuff like Hunter x Hunter, but I'd rather not rank them with the above so eh.

Worst:

Fairy Tail: No explanation needed, right?

Freezing: Incestuous rapists should be forgiven! Yay! Also an excuse to have women fight each other and lose clothing in the process, at the expense of any decent plot.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 17, 2013)

so happy to see hxh listed on so many worst lists


----------



## Morglay (Jun 17, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Freezing: Incestuous rapists should be forgiven! Yay! Also an excuse to have women fight each other and lose clothing in the process, at the expense of any decent plot.



Reads Freezing for plot... Wait wut? That's like eating muff to get a facial.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm so happy to see One Piece listed on so many, and not a worst one. :amazed. 

Anyways I can't really do a top 5. So I'll list my top ten. :amazed. 

1.One Piece
2. Vagabond
3. Slam Dunk
4. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
5. FullMetal Alchemist 
6. YuYu Hakusho
7. Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer
8. Hajime no Ippo
9. Berserk
10. 20th Century Boys.

Honorable mentions- Bleach, Hunter x Hunter, and Attack on Titan. AoT would be in the top 10, but I'm going to wait for it to have more chapters. Oh and Toriko.


Worst one is FT. The only manga I ever dropped.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

Moglay said:


> Reads Freezing for plot... Wait wut? That's like eating muff to get a facial.



ngl I know someone who does

...

The part about Freezing that is


----------



## Fujita (Jun 17, 2013)

Moglay said:


> Reads Freezing for plot... Wait wut? That's like eating muff to get a facial.



> Saying that you shouldn't read it for plot
> Tacitly acknowledging that it has an awful plot 
> But it also has no redeeming qualities to make up for this, so
> The criticism of its plot stands 

And the thing clearly _tries_ at it, so it hardly gets the excuse of being a series that never tries to take its plot very seriously.  



OtherGalaxy said:


> ngl I know someone who does
> 
> ...
> 
> The part about Freezing that is



Is it

*Spoiler*: __ 



you


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

it would be easier to handle if it was me 

if only it were so simple


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 17, 2013)

I wanted to read Freezing next. Since I just finished Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer (Expect a review tomorrow.)


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

DON'T DO IT TORA


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 17, 2013)

Looks up manga scans. 




 

Nah I won't if Fujita and OG say it's bad it most likely is.


----------



## Fujita (Jun 17, 2013)

Well, by reading it you gain a tiny morsel of low-quality entertainment, and a fair amount of bile at the rape and general shoddiness.  

And something to post about whenever one of these types of threads come up


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

Freezing is one of the worst series I've had the misfortune of encountering in general

Not even ironic reading level


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 17, 2013)

Is it worse than FT?


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 17, 2013)

By far          .


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 17, 2013)

Well add another series I'm never reading.


----------



## Mizura (Jun 17, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Is it worse than FT?


Fairy Tail's fanservice is just harmless boobshots.
Freezing's idea of fanservice is domestic abuse and creepy incestual obsession. :\

I can't even remember which were the worst series I've read. Too many shoujo-turned-domestic-abuse-near-rape-fics. 
Which is why I now avoid most Shoujo like the plague. >_>;;


----------



## tupadre97 (Jun 17, 2013)

Best
1. Berserk
2. One Piece
3. Hunter X Hunter
4. Magi
5. Attack on Titan

Worst
Naruto...  just Naruto


----------



## Jagger (Jun 17, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Deadman Wonderland has always been incredibly edgy, generic, and just bad. And you read Naruto... I'm going to stop responding to you because I'm beginning to just get angry.


Now I understand what you really want to do...start a fight by insulting everyone's likes.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 17, 2013)

MrCinos said:


> Ch.163


WHAT THE FLYING FUCK DID I JUST FUCKING READ, WHAT IS WRONG WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS GODDAMN WORLD?!?! HAVE PEOPLE GONE INSANE, HOW CAN YOU READ THIS?!


/rant.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 18, 2013)

^That's more less the usual reaction when reading Kago Shintaro mangas, the guy is fucking nuts.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> WHAT THE FLYING FUCK DID I JUST FUCKING READ, WHAT IS WRONG WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS GODDAMN WORLD?!?! HAVE PEOPLE GONE INSANE, HOW CAN YOU READ THIS?!
> 
> 
> /rant.



Yeah, I clicked on it, too.
Got eight pages in, before I just had to x out of it.


----------



## Morglay (Jun 18, 2013)

Fujita said:


> > Saying that you shouldn't read it for plot
> > Tacitly acknowledging that it has an awful plot
> > But it also has no redeeming qualities to make up for this, so
> > The criticism of its plot stands



Sorry for my amphiboly, I don't believe I said anything to disprove your point. Simply that even trying to scrape a plot out of the shit-bowl that is Freezing isn't very nourishing for the intellect.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

I read a little bit of it. 

Seem really terrible and creepy.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 18, 2013)

I never though i would associate flying heads with hanging organs with sex, till i read a Kago Shintaro manga.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> WHAT THE FLYING FUCK DID I JUST FUCKING READ, WHAT IS WRONG WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS GODDAMN WORLD?!?! HAVE PEOPLE GONE INSANE, HOW CAN YOU READ THIS?!
> 
> 
> /rant.



I couldn't tell if it was trying to be disgusting or play it all for laughs in some twisted way


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

How many volumes does his manga usually last?


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 18, 2013)

Eminem said:


> How many volumes does his manga usually last?



I think most of his stuff is around one volume long.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 18, 2013)

How surprising


----------



## Shozan (Jun 18, 2013)

*Best:*

- JJBA

- Hunter x Hunter

- Slam Dunk

- Berserk

- Tough / Garouden / Baki

Honorable mention to: T.O.G., O.P.M., One Piece and Toriko.

*Worst:*

Can't mention one that i hate or something like that but the last few weeks of Fairy Tale have been really hard for me to read. Shit tier stuff there.

Other than that i can't say another manga. Maybe New Prince of Tennis cause things go way (cut me some slack here), way above the realm of 'this stuff is fine with this kind of manga' and the scans are slow as fuck.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

Moglay said:


> Reads Freezing for plot... Wait wut? That's like eating muff to get a facial.



>reading a work of fiction for its narrative?
>you're so silly!


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

I think I have another one for my worst list: A Fairy Tale for the Demon Lord.

It'd probably be really good if it made any sense.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

Mr. Cinos... What the fuck have you made me read... 

Babies, fucking babies fucking each other.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Can't there isn't diverse manga.


----------



## Brian (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> WHAT THE FLYING FUCK DID I JUST FUCKING READ, WHAT IS WRONG WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS GODDAMN WORLD?!?! HAVE PEOPLE GONE INSANE, HOW CAN YOU READ THIS?!
> 
> 
> /rant.



Ch.163

Once you get through this you will be strong


----------



## Nanja (Jun 18, 2013)

^ What does it say about me that I was laughing more at the absurdity of that than I would a comedy? I acknowledge that it has terrible concepts but lol.


----------



## Iskandar (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Ch.163
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong



What the fuck was that ? 
I mean? just the 1st 2 pages


----------



## Golden Witch (Jun 18, 2013)

Uziga Waita.Says it all.

The guy who made the Daily Life of Mai Chan.Most fucked up read ever.



> What the fuck was that ?
> I mean… just the 1st 2 pages



It's the same author who gets a kick and a fucking erection from drawing a newborn baby being killed by being put in a blender.....


----------



## opofft (Jun 18, 2013)

> Don't get your hopes up.





> Daily Life of Mai Chan



Wtf did i just read


----------



## SternRitter (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong



I can only blame myself for opening that link. Why don't they lock these guys up Jesus christ....


----------



## 8 (Jun 18, 2013)

i wouldn't count those guro manga as worst, simply because they accomplish what they were intended to. they were made to get the reactions we see in this thread. imo a truly bad manga would be one that utterly fails at whatever its trying to be.


----------



## Tandaradei (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Don't get your hopes up.
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong


----------



## The World (Jun 18, 2013)

8 said:


> i wouldn't count those guro manga as worst, simply because they accomplish what they were intended to. they were made to get the reactions we see in this thread. imo a truly bad manga would be one that utterly fails at whatever its trying to be.



no it's the worst

those "artists" should be wiped off the face of this earth


----------



## Toriko (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah, that's pretty wierd.


----------



## Patrick (Jun 18, 2013)

Weird is a bit of an understatement.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 18, 2013)

Well, hey, at least I can add another manga to my worst list.


----------



## Shozan (Jun 18, 2013)

it's shock for the sake of shock manga. You know what to expect from that. Just imagine something really fucked up and add some shit on the top.


----------



## ~Howling~ (Jun 18, 2013)

It was


----------



## Eisenheim (Jun 18, 2013)

Looks like that is something that will leave a very bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## Blue (Jun 18, 2013)

God Movement said:


> It's a gag manga, I've read it, and it was entertaining.
> 
> Much better than FT.



Hipsters gonna hip, I guess.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Well you got to look at what the manga genre is and what it is aiming for.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 18, 2013)

Let's be honest. FT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That shit I just read. At least you can lol at how bad it is, can you lol at fucking babies fucking coming out of nowhere and being slaughtered in a horrible way? 

Please, sociopaths, don't answer this question.


----------



## Iskandar (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Let's be honest. FT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That shit I just read. At least you can lol at how bad it is, can you lol at fucking babies fucking coming out of nowhere and being slaughtered in a horrible way?
> 
> Please, sociopaths, don't answer this question.



 Did you read the manga Brian posted ?


----------



## Black Mirror (Jun 18, 2013)

MrCinos said:


> Yup



lol, like XD


----------



## Morglay (Jun 18, 2013)

I am back after dabbling in this shit, I got prang so I reinstalled my browser. Wish I could reinstall my mind...


----------



## Shozan (Jun 18, 2013)

I want to add Shamo to my list...
SHAMO!!!  <3


----------



## PPsycho (Jun 18, 2013)

Those obscure titles you peeps posted were pretty fucking disturbing; while the one with babies made me laugh a bit, although in a strange way, the second was so disgusting I just couldn't read past a few pages. Bleh, who comes up with this shit.


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 18, 2013)

The Best:
Hellsing
Tower of God
Rurouni Kenshin
Berserk
Dragon Ball

The Worst:
Bleach
Naruto
Claymore


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Yup
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong



This was complet garbage what kinda of sick bastard read this disturb shit this is by far the worst manga i ever see i my life.

And they got to chater 10!? Only a psychopath can get that far in this plot.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jun 18, 2013)

My worst has probably been Negima. I didnt digest that stuff.

My best is definitely Slam Dunk, ive re-read it countless times. It's just because i prefer sport stuff and i like basketball more than baseball or ping pong. 

And because Haruko is hotter than Minami chan... and Takenori Akagi is manlier than Hiratsuka


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Link removed
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong



I accepted your challenge


5 pages into it and this was my reaction(still reading it though)


----------



## Shozan (Jun 18, 2013)

Bubi is hot for black sturdy men. :ho

Mitsui > Akagi


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Bubi said:


> My worst has probably been Negima. I didnt digest that stuff.
> 
> My best is definitely Slam Dunk, ive re-read it countless times. It's just because i prefer sport stuff and i like basketball more than baseball or ping pong.
> 
> And because Haruko is hotter than Minami chan... and Takenori Akagi is manlier than Hiratsuka



Not really into Basketball, but when I read Slam Dunk I fell in love with the story. 

I'd would reread, but I just read it recently for the first time. Truly a great manga.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

No... Not getting past 1st chapter...

No... Just no... I'm strong enough to read it all but I won't read it because it will waste my time, and it can't possibly get any worse than that.


----------



## Brian (Jun 18, 2013)

Did anyone get past chapter 1


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Did anyone get past chapter 1



... Ok I managed to read chapter 2...

_Dissection Death Penalty_...


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Nah Brian. I'm not even going to try.


----------



## Brian (Jun 18, 2013)

understandable since it gets crazier 



Grimm6Jack said:


> ... Ok I managed to read chapter 2...
> 
> _Dissection Death Penalty_...



I suppose they overacted in that bit


----------



## Magician (Jun 18, 2013)

I almost got perma-banned for posting the link in another thread.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

Chapter 7...   



Now that shit disturbed the hell out of even me...

Chapter 9 had some crappy art.

Ok, managed to read them all without throwing out. Now let's see if I get nightmares at night.


If I have... Brian, you will pay for this, for ever showing this to me


----------



## Mako (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Link removed
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong



Why. what is this ck

good god. why. why is this shit even published.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 18, 2013)

i didn't get past the girl with the anus full of maggots, which was like page 6 or something, and the first actual story page

so yeah


----------



## Golden Witch (Jun 18, 2013)

This thread sure got interesting for an entire different reason than was intended.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 18, 2013)

Bubi said:


> And because Haruko is hotter than Minami chan... and Takenori Akagi is manlier than Hiratsuka



lies

damn dirty lies


----------



## Vermin (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> Link removed
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong


i died a little on the inside


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jun 18, 2013)

I literally puked..I can't even finish my cereal now.


----------



## Justice (Jun 18, 2013)

I cringed at the box cutter going into the ass. FUCK.THAT.SHIT.


----------



## Blue (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i didn't get past the girl with the anus full of maggots, which was like page 6 or something, and the first actual story page
> 
> so yeah



Same, haha.

But I think "I don't want to read this" is different than "this is bad."

I'm not even a big fan of manga like Terra Formars or Gantz. I don't find people getting ripped in half appealing. I mean, it's fine if you want to rip a character in half for dramatic effect, but silhouette that shit. Don't spend a week detailing their intestines.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i didn't get past the girl with the anus full of maggots, which was like page 6 or something, and the first actual story page
> 
> so yeah



Same here, it was way more than what i'm willing to stomach.


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 18, 2013)

There's loads of that guro/scat bullshit, I didn't bother listing them because I don't even count them as a story just absurd shock value that I'm never going to read.


----------



## Succubus (Jun 18, 2013)

ehh I find kago shintaros most mangas boring.. try Waita Uzigas better by so far its crazier and funnier


----------



## Jagger (Jun 18, 2013)

Bobop said:


> Did you read the manga Brian posted ?


Do you seriously expect me to read that kind of fucked up shit? I'd rather watch My Little Pony all day and getting yelled in my ear by my little sister singing the damn song than watching how people are ripped in half and girls eating each other's maggots.


----------



## Russo (Jun 18, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> These kinds of threads are always fun once in a while until their eventual fiery end.
> Post your personal top 5 best and worst series you've ever read.
> 
> Quite hard for me to choose, but;
> ...



*Best*
HXH
Monster
Death Note
Yu yu hakusho
Naruto

*Worst*
Oyasumi punpun
Sakigake cromartie
Hikari no machi
Bleach
One Piece


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 18, 2013)

Russo said:


> *Best*
> HXH
> Monster
> Death Note
> ...



No                                  .


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i didn't get past the girl with the *anus full of maggots*, which was like page 6 or something, and the first actual story page
> 
> so yeah


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

And I was thinking that it was impossible to have more gore than Gantz or Deadman Wonderland or Elfen Lied...

God, how the fuck they allow this shit to be published. 

@Blue:
I like to see their guts all out and brains and whatnot, and the details of the veins and bones showing after someone gets a limb ripped, it seems more realistic. 

But that shit was just outright disgusting. Man fucking mutilated/dissected people? Fucking corpses? Babies being used as toys, literally? Eating shit with maggots?


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> And I was thinking that it was impossible to have more gore than Gantz or Deadman Wonderland or Elfen Lied...
> 
> *God, how the fuck they allow this shit to be published.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

incoming ban in 3...2...1...


----------



## Snowless (Jun 18, 2013)

Russo said:


> *Best*
> HXH
> Monster
> Death Note
> ...



Well, if he's going to be banned for anything, it should be this list.


----------



## Brian (Jun 18, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Chapter 7...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The holes?  that was...something alright that was my first introduction to the whole thing

Well nothing else should disturb you after that


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 18, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Chapter 7...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You keep reading this shit care to share to us what was the point of this manga or if even has a point at all?


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 18, 2013)

Blunt said:


> incoming ban in 3...2...1...



nah this is the worst manga thread no? So he didn't break any rule even if he post something that would disturb even serial killers.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jun 18, 2013)

Holy motherfucking shit


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jun 18, 2013)

And I thought Rainbow had its moments


----------



## Jagger (Jun 18, 2013)

I need that red device from MIB.


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

Yoburi said:


> nah this is the worst manga thread no? So he didn't break any rule even if he post something that would disturb even serial killers.


nop

you're not allowed to post that kinda stuff outside the BH

even in the BH, that shit might not be allowed


----------



## Jagger (Jun 18, 2013)

Let's be honest, who is capable of drawing these? I bet the Son of Sam will start puking after seeing this.


----------



## Blunt (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> For fuck's sake, Japan. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?! OH GOD, WHO THE FUCK DRAWS THIS SHIT?! WHAT KIND OF FUCKED UP MIND WAKES UP SOME DAY AND SAYS "Oh geez, what an awesome day...let's make girls eat shit with maggots!".  SERIOUSLY, MASHIMA IS A FUCKING GENIUS COMPARED TO THIS AUTHOR.
> 
> 
> AND THE WORST PART OF ALL IS THAT *THOSE BASTARDS ARE PROBABLY MARRIED EVEN WHILE DRAWING THIS FUCKED UP SHIT AND I CAN'T EVEN GET A GIRL TO KISS ME.
> ...


----------



## Brian (Jun 18, 2013)

This is author btw


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jun 18, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Let's be honest, who is capable of drawing these? I bet the Son of Sam will start puking after seeing this.



Seriously 

Stop


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 18, 2013)

Is a he a well known loved mangaka in Japan. Or is this basically what he's known for?


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 18, 2013)

Who managed to read all 10 chapters of that series?


----------



## Sablés (Jun 18, 2013)

You read that filth?

<Couldn't get past the first page.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 18, 2013)

This thread went weird and fast.

Also im not reading that crap, and thank god i did not see the full image that was posted.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 18, 2013)

Brian said:


> This is author btw




"I've seen some shit...literally."


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 19, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Is a he a well known loved mangaka in Japan. Or is this basically what he's known for?



Well he is a more less famous Mangaka, his mangas have actually gotten translated to other countries, and enjoys a certain popularity in Japan.


----------



## Totitos (Jun 19, 2013)

Brian said:


> Ch.83
> 
> Once you get through this you will be strong


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 19, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> Well he is a more less famous Mangaka, his mangas have actually gotten translated to other countries, and enjoys a certain popularity in Japan.



Ah I can tell from the picture posted of him. 

Looks quite succesful.


----------



## Justice (Jun 19, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Who managed to read all 10 chapters of that series?




How about no.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 19, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> Well he is a more less famous Mangaka, his mangas have actually gotten translated to other countries, *and enjoys a certain popularity in Japan.*


Seriously? SERIOUSLY?! THAT MEANS IF I GO TO JAPAN AND I WRITE BABIBES EATING OTHER BABIES I CAN BE FAMOUS?!

AND I THOUGHT BEING IN JERSEY SHORE WAS THE MOST EASY AND STUPID WAY TO GAIN MONEY, FAME AND WOMEN. GEEZ AMERICA, WHY CAN'T YOU BE LIKE THEM?!


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 19, 2013)

Jagger said:


> For fuck's sake, Japan. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?! OH GOD, WHO THE FUCK DRAWS THIS SHIT?! WHAT KIND OF FUCKED UP MIND WAKES UP SOME DAY AND SAYS "Oh geez, what an awesome day...let's make girls eat shit with maggots!".  SERIOUSLY, MASHIMA IS A FUCKING GENIUS COMPARED TO THIS AUTHOR.
> 
> 
> *AND THE WORST PART OF ALL IS THAT THOSE BASTARDS ARE PROBABLY MARRIED EVEN WHILE DRAWING THIS FUCKED UP SHIT AND I CAN'T EVEN GET A GIRL TO KISS ME.*
> ...






Jagger said:


> Seriously? SERIOUSLY?! THAT MEANS IF I GO TO JAPAN AND I WRITE BABIBES EATING OTHER BABIES I CAN BE FAMOUS?!
> 
> AND I THOUGHT BEING IN JERSEY SHORE WAS THE MOST EASY AND STUPID WAY TO GAIN MONEY, FAME AND *WOMEN*. GEEZ AMERICA, WHY CAN'T YOU BE LIKE THEM?!



I see a pattern now.


----------



## Sablés (Jun 19, 2013)

^


----------



## Jagger (Jun 19, 2013)

Big Bοss said:


> I see a pattern now.





You're quite sharp, aren't you? 

But my rants are honest, seriously, who in their right minds can draw such fucked up thing like those mangas? Seriously, I can't sleep thanks to that, how can they live knowing they created such abomination?


----------



## Iskandar (Jun 19, 2013)

At least, they express their madness only through graphic art.
There are worse people. For example, that japanese guy who had a surgery to remove his own cock, and then cooked it and served it to consentants guests who paid for it.


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 19, 2013)

^Link please^^ But really i sure there is people that would pay to read this shit.


----------



## Iskandar (Jun 19, 2013)




----------



## Yoburi (Jun 19, 2013)

Is just me or the Naruto manga is looking better and better after reading this thread


----------



## 8 (Jun 19, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Seriously? SERIOUSLY?! THAT MEANS IF I GO TO JAPAN AND I WRITE BABIBES EATING OTHER BABIES I CAN BE FAMOUS?!
> 
> AND I THOUGHT BEING IN JERSEY SHORE WAS THE MOST EASY AND STUPID WAY TO GAIN MONEY, FAME AND WOMEN. GEEZ AMERICA, WHY CAN'T YOU BE LIKE THEM?!


he's famous because people like you discuss his work and spread his popularity. even if your bashing him, bad publicity = good publicity. just look at everyone picking it up because its baaad.


----------



## Gain (Jun 19, 2013)

Kago to me is just kind of interesting. I find his stuff more funny than disgusting actually.

I can NOT say the same about Uziga Waita and his infamously sick work about the Junko Furata case. It was the first guro I ever came across and it made me so sick to my stomach that an author would go that low with depicting one of the most gut-wrenching and horrendous crimes of the century, that I actually only stuck to low key slice of life stuffs for a few months because of how it effected me at the time. Maybe I've become desensitized since then, but I never re-read it after that and would encourage nobody else to do so. I definitely would say it was the worst thing I had ever read. 

I did read some of the author's other stuff in the past few years and despite the content it didn't bother me as much, meh.



since I don't want to link the manga, here's the story behind it.


----------



## egressmadara (Jun 19, 2013)

Fuck. Dat shit almost made meh vomit. Really bad taste.....


----------



## Jagger (Jun 19, 2013)

You know what they deserve? A bullet to the head.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jun 19, 2013)

Kate Nash said:


> since I don't want to link the manga, here's the story behind it.



These are the kind of stories that actually make me believe in the existence of demons or monsters cause in no way will I ever regard such beings as humans.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 19, 2013)

Golden Witch said:


> These are the kind of stories that actually make me believe in the existence of demons or monsters cause in no way will I ever regard such beings as humans.



It's actually for those same reasons that they are humans...


----------



## leokiko (Jun 20, 2013)

Mileh said:


> Goddamn, I see all these reactions to this, and now I want to click it, but I'm kind of afraid to, tbh... *is it really that bad?*


Yes, it is. A warning for someone now arriving to this thread:

DO NOT CLICK THIS.


----------



## Quwrof Wrlccywrlir (Jun 20, 2013)

i prefer nensense's panic attacks over what this thread has actually turned into


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jun 20, 2013)

anyways, going to post on-topic shit.


my faves, not necessarily the best:
-Tower Of God
-Slam Dunk/Baby Steps
-Samurai X/The Breaker
-Kyou Kara Ore Wa/Gintama/Angel Densetsu/Cromartie  (KKOW, cromartie and AD is in a higher tier than gintama though)
-Kubera/Skip Beat

forever changing list.

worst(shit that i've dropped):
-Kimi No Iru Machi
-Good Ending
-Freezing


----------



## Tempproxy (Jun 20, 2013)

Kate Nash said:


> Kago to me is just kind of interesting. I find his stuff more funny than disgusting actually.
> 
> I can NOT say the same about Uziga Waita and his infamously sick work about the Junko Furata case. It was the first guro I ever came across and it made me so sick to my stomach that an author would go that low with depicting one of the most gut-wrenching and horrendous crimes of the century, that I actually only stuck to low key slice of life stuffs for a few months because of how it effected me at the time. Maybe I've become desensitized since then, but I never re-read it after that and would encourage nobody else to do so. I definitely would say it was the worst thing I had ever read.
> 
> ...



Good lord that story is fucked up, Japan legal system is a joke.


----------



## slumpy (Jun 20, 2013)

My list is not very concistent and I will mix finnished and current running mangas

Best:
Monster 
I am a Hero
Naruto
20st century
Ares
Berserk (could be on the worst list, because the guy has absolutly no interest in finishing this thing)
X/1999
Ravage of time


special mentioning of current running manga's: Vinland saga, Tower of God, Kubera, Onepunch-Man, Ushijima the Loan Shark (and allot shows that probably forgot)

special mentioning for complete shows: Basilisk (great ninja story), Hellsing, xxxholic

Worst manga's ( I only list manga's I have read as a hole, or I am still reading)

Finished (only gantz is still running):

1) Gantz
2) Death Note
3) Samurai Deeper Kyo (started good, but was so fucking dissapointed in the end)
4) 666 satan
5) Angel Densetsu
6) City Hunter
7) D.Gray-Man (is still running)

Not worst ever but where very dissapointend in the longer run (some I finished and some I am still reading or are on hold): Shin Angyo Onshi. Hitman Reborn, Bleach, Beelzebub, claymore, Wolf Guy Ookami no Monshou, Vagabond. Some of these I haven't touch for years so I don't know who they are doing right now

And al the other manga's I forget and dont even come to mind mentioning


I also wanted to list Hunter X Hunter ( I loved the remake of the anime, but the art of the old manga scans are so terrible, I want to rate it here. But the story has so much potential.


----------



## egressmadara (Jun 20, 2013)

Dat case was just.... so god-awful....


----------



## occ (Jun 20, 2013)

Best:
- One Piece
- Rave Master
- Alive!
- ?bel Blatt
- Bitter Virgin (first try at reading a manga and really liked it)

Worst:
- Fairy Tail (but I still like it)
- Naruto (still like it)
- Bleach (still reading it because I want to see the end, though i gotta say - I like the newest Arc)
- Tenjou Tenge (but I loved the comedy and fan service, but the "story" was so damn confusing)
- Gantz (just want to see how it ends now)

Looking at my list, you can propably guess that I haven't read a lot of manga so far.
Maybe I'll pick up a new one soon.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2013)

Kate Nash said:


> Kago to me is just kind of interesting. I find his stuff more funny than disgusting actually.
> 
> I can NOT say the same about Uziga Waita and his infamously sick work about the Junko Furata case. It was the first guro I ever came across and it made me so sick to my stomach that an author would go that low with depicting one of the most gut-wrenching and horrendous crimes of the century, that I actually only stuck to low key slice of life stuffs for a few months because of how it effected me at the time. Maybe I've become desensitized since then, but I never re-read it after that and would encourage nobody else to do so. I definitely would say it was the worst thing I had ever read.
> 
> ...



gayn you have become a serious man


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

Good to see people have a wide range of comics.


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 20, 2013)

Gantz is over by now but still crap.


----------



## Gain (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> gayn you have become a serious man



[YOUTUBE]Ag1o3koTLWM[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## TamedTanuki (Jun 20, 2013)

*Best*
in no particular order:
One Piece
Yu Yu Hakusho
Slam Dunk
Berserk

*Worst*

Bleach (after volume 20)
Naruto part 2
Gantz 3rd phase


----------



## TwentyFifthNight (Jun 21, 2013)

slumpy said:


> My list is not very concistent and I will mix finnished and current running mangas
> 
> Best:
> Monster
> ...



.         .
ck


----------



## Blαck (Jun 21, 2013)

Saw Blue Exorcist and Blood Lad on someone's worst list earlier, any particular reason why?


----------



## Bilaal (Jun 21, 2013)

five worst in no particular order:

Wendy
Seikon no Qwaser
D. Gray Man
Claymore
Death Note



Russo said:


> *Worst*
> Oyasumi punpun


----------



## p-lou (Jun 21, 2013)

Wendy ain't that bad 

Some of the covers are dope and the Hook gag is pretty funny. I just wish it had turned out like Matsumoto wanted it to like in the blurb at the end.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 21, 2013)

It'd probably be better off if it were crazier


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 21, 2013)

I thought there would be more Jiro Matsumoto mentions in the worst manga sections by now tbh, his stuff can off putting.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 21, 2013)

nonsense

anyone who creates jupiter-chan is incapable of writing something bad or off putting

even if the first thing i ever read by the guy is a short story that ends with a nudist artist fucking a girl that just slit her wrists in a bathtub after he drags in the carcass of her husband she just brutally murdered right after he fucked a yakuza sex slave in an alley who had been raped by the brutally murdered husband which happened right after he fucked the bathtub girl the first time


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 21, 2013)

Bilaal you don't like Claymore? I heard good things about it. why?


----------



## Shozan (Jun 21, 2013)

p-lou said:


> nonsense
> 
> anyone who creates jupiter-chan is incapable of writing something bad or off putting
> 
> even if the first thing i ever read by the guy is a short story that ends with a nudist artist fucking a girl that just slit her wrists in a bathtub after he drags in the carcass of her husband she just brutally murdered right after he fucked a yakuza sex slave in an alley who had been raped by the brutally murdered husband which happened right after he fucked the bathtub girl the first time



that's 1 chapter from ichi the killer


----------



## Adamant soul (Jun 22, 2013)

I tend to watch anime before I read manga so the only mangas I've actually read and am up to date with are Rosario + Vampire and Claymore. Ironically they are opposites, one started off good, got amazing and has recently taken a nose dive into mediocrity (Claymore) while the other started off mediocre, got slightly better as it went along and is currently pretty damned awesome (Rosario). I'm meaning to add the Yugioh and Digimon mangas to my rosterat some point but as it stands I can't do a top 5 list either way.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 22, 2013)

Best

Full Metal Alchemist
Berserk
Fist of the North Star
Toriko
One Piece

Worst 

Vitalis Sexualis
Air Gear
Fairy Tail
Bleach
Naruto


----------



## Byrd (Jun 22, 2013)

Best

1) Priest
2) Hoshi no Samidare
3) Hotel
4) Kiba no Tabishounin: The Arms Peddler
5) Berserk 

Worst

1) Fairy Tail
2) Bleach
3) Cerberus
4) World Trigger
5) Naruto


----------



## Barago (Jun 22, 2013)

Best 5 series:

Code Breaker
Fairy Tail
Naruto
Bleach
KHR

Quality beyond quality.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 22, 2013)

Shozan said:


> that's 1 chapter from ichi the killer


keep on vibrating

and don't forget the pig fuck


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 22, 2013)

top six

majin tantei nougami neuro
nausicaa of the valley of the wind
battle angel alita
blade of the immortal
black and white
houshin engi

worst

naruto
tokyo akazukin
children of the sea
bleach
witches
ichi the killer


----------



## Bilaal (Jun 22, 2013)

p-lou said:


> Wendy ain't that bad
> 
> Some of the covers are dope and the Hook gag is pretty funny. I just wish it had turned out like Matsumoto wanted it to like in the blurb at the end.



yeah calling it worst may be overhating, i just found it really disappointing coming from him. i don't really remember the blurb at the end but you're probably right.

congrats on your house btw


Eminem said:


> Bilaal you don't like Claymore? I heard good things about it. why?


it starts off with huge potential but just wastes it, taking one of the biggest nosedives in quality i've ever seen. the characters are bland, the main antagonist is awful, and just the whole package reeks of utter mediocrity. i dropped it forever ago though, this is based off what i remember.


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 22, 2013)

Claybore suffers from entirely far to dull characters and generally mediocre charactersiation. The only parts I liked in terms of character growth and interaction was the Teresa/Alice relationship.

Dropped it a while ago though, and I heard it gets much worse.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 22, 2013)

Just remembered one I really hated
World Embryo
I don't know if I could say it's one of the worst, but it's definitely the most dull manga I've ever read


The Doctor said:


> keep on vibrating
> 
> and don't forget the pig fuck



what


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 22, 2013)

the characters are rather lacking throughout claymore, but i think at least pre-timeskip, it's almost an exemplary battle manga in terms of the sense of danger and the viscerality it has

the slashers, witch's maw, and the war in the north are standout arcs in this regard

it's rather lopsided in that the setting is bare-bones and so is the characterisation, but i think the action is superb. i certainly wouldn't put it on a bottom 5


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 22, 2013)

doesn't really sound like a manga that I'll like. 

I'm not much of a fan of pure battle mangas. I'm sure it has more but if its focused on battles its not for me.


----------



## Yoburi (Jun 22, 2013)

^Read part 1 of Claymore until they get to Galatea hot nun arc after that drop when they start talking about some BS of dragons that never apear.


----------



## Badalight (Jun 23, 2013)

*Best*

1. Rookies
2. Jojos Bizarre Adventure
3. Berserk
4. 20th Century Boys
5. Dorohedoro


*Worst*
1. Absolute Boyfriend
2. Koe de Oshigoto
3. Bleach
4. Doubt
5. Reborn!


----------



## p-lou (Jun 23, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> worst
> 
> naruto
> tokyo akazukin
> ...







Bilaal said:


> yeah calling it worst may be overhating, i just found it really disappointing coming from him. i don't really remember the blurb at the end but you're probably right.
> 
> congrats on your house btw



provides a little perspective on the work itself and just how crazy the dude might be


and thx friend =)



OtherGalaxy said:


> what



a lady is fucked by a large pig for a porno

this is the day after they film a gang bang with the same lady

and is observed by two little children wearing gas masks


----------



## Rob (Jun 24, 2013)

I haven't read too many things. *Looks at Sig*

But I will have a top 5 best 

1. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
2. Death Note
3. One Piece
4. Hunter X Hunter
5. Naruto

Uhm... I guess there is one series I just could not get into. 
Code Geass. 

Not bashing it, but it just did not catch my interest.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 24, 2013)

i luv u <3


----------



## TwentyFifthNight (Jun 24, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Just remembered one I really hated
> World Embryo
> I don't know if I could say it's one of the worst, but it's definitely the most dull manga I've ever read
> 
> ...



WE is an okay manga.
I agree that it's pretty dull at some moments though.
On another note, Code Breaker is another manga that i find dull for some reasons.


----------



## Gain (Jun 24, 2013)

forgot my best

1. Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou
2. Touch
3. The World Is Mine
4. Oyasumi Punpun
5. Dorohedoro


----------



## Roman (Jun 24, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> *Worst*
> 1. Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> 2. Takamagahara
> 3. SWOT
> ...



Not gonna lie, I was half-expecting Magi to be on this list 

My top 5 BEST would be as follows:

1. Shingeki no Kyojin
2. Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic
3. Fullmetal Alchemist
4. Yu Yu Hakusho
5. Vinland Saga


----------



## -Ziltoid- (Jun 24, 2013)

Hmmz the best series.. when looking at the quality of the story:
- *Tower of God* is definitely my number 1
- *Berserk *could have been better if more often released and if it had more focus on the main storyline - still an awesome story though
- *Feng Shen Ji*; Start was a bit confusing, but now it is one of the series that hypes me the most 
- *One Piece*; though it can be rather slow and childish at times, I still love it
- *Akira *was great

Worst
- *Fairy tail*; shitty story, though an amusing comedy 
- *Beelzebub*; similar to Fairy tail, though less rushed and less idiotic powerups 
- *Detective conan*; tried it once but it sucked so terribly hard..
- *Naruto*, see bleach
- *Bleach*:  have awesome moments yet both authors have a habit of trolling the reader a few times too many; looking at artwork Bleach definitely wins, though Naruto has a better story for the biggest part

I've read series that were actually worse than those that I've stated here, but often I just forget about them as I didn't finish them anyway. Conan in this case is a honourable exception, as it sucked so bad that I instantly remembered it 

Naruto and Bleach are actually series I love the most, but that's the reason I read it quite critically I guess - I love it enough that I continue reading it despite that it annoys me at times..


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jun 24, 2013)

^ If you found Nozoki Ana to be depressive, then you should try Sundome


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 24, 2013)

From what I gather, Sundome is depressing because 
*Spoiler*: __ 



of the tragic ending.


 While I personally hate 
*Spoiler*: __ 



tragedies


, Nozoki Ana is way worse than just 
*Spoiler*: __ 



having a tragic ending.


 because it's just all-around depressing no matter what they do. It's the kind of story that almost makes you lose a bit of faith in humanity in the sense that you just don't feel like trying anymore.
In the end, the author just tormented way too many characters with way too depressing and needlessly cruel traumas. You just want to punch both of the main characters in the face due to how stupid they are and for how much pointless pain they put others through by being complete dumbasses in simple situations. It didn't really help that the ridiculous situations they kept getting into were just done too badly to be believable. Locked together in a narrow space involuntarily forced to peep on a couple doing it? Fine. _Again?_ ...Alright.  *Again?* Fupp this. 

That being said, it can't hold a candle to the pile of "wtf" that is Shitsurakuen. 
In fact, even though it's the worst manga ever, I recommend everyone to read it. It's a fascinating subject of study. 
*I'm not even sarcastic about it.*


----------



## TwentyFifthNight (Jun 25, 2013)

Nozoki ana....
Try chisa x pon, cross and crime, kono s o miyo.
Hahahahahahaha


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm liking these list more and more I see them.


----------



## Pirate King Might Guy (Jun 25, 2013)

Best:
Bleach
Full metal Alchemist
Full metal Panic
Beelzebub
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi

Mediocre (currently)
One piece

Worst (Currently)
Naruto



MadmanRobz said:


> ...I'll probably be lynched for this, but _screw_ the average opinion.
> 
> *My personal top 5:*
> 
> ...



Agree with this.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 25, 2013)

TwentyFifthNight said:


> Nozoki ana....
> Try chisa x pon, cross and crime, kono s o miyo.
> Hahahahahahaha



...Which part of "Shitsurakuen is in a whole different dimension of worse" didn't ya catch?


----------



## TwentyFifthNight (Jun 25, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...Which part of "Shitsurakuen is in a whole different dimension of worse" didn't ya catch?



I've pretty much regarded the rest as TL;DR's tbh.


----------



## 8 (Jun 25, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...Which part of "Shitsurakuen is in a whole different dimension of worse" didn't ya catch?


considering i like the other series on your worst list i should probably pick up this one as well.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 25, 2013)

Alright, I'mma clarify here.

My list is just my own preference. 
To me, Nozoki Ana is bad because it's just frustrating to read every new development, because most things that happen are just very contrived ways to make someone _other_ than the main characters suffer terribly, and they always have to take it way worse than what should've been necessary.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The main character's girlfriend (at the time) whom he is _beyond_ passionately in love with was cheating on him? Well, that's sad. 
Oh wait, she really _does_ care about him after all, and actually feels really bad about it?
*OH!* 
She realizes that she genuinely loves the main character a lot more!  
*Yes!* Now she's in love with him just as much as he loves her, and she's going for him for real! 
*Fupp. Yes.* She's being completely honest with him and makes it clear that he's the one she wants and that she absolutely chooses _him_!
*YES. HAPPY ENDINGS ALL AROUND.* 
...
...
...Wait, why is MC suddenly completely devoid of affection for her? 
The fu-EMOTIONS DON'T WORK THAT WAY. 
Oh great, now she's breaking down, begging him to take her back and give her a chance, completely and honestly intending to do her absolute best to make things work and all-around feeling horrible for everything that's happened and crying because she's honestly and truly in love with him. 
The MC supposedly loves her even more than she loves him? Pfft, fupp that. That's gone with the wind in point two seconds. 
Yay, enjoy the next 10 or so pages of a sympathetic character having her heart and emotions stomped on by the main character _for absolutely no reason at all._ 
I mean hell, it's not like he *actually does care about her and has absolutely no reason not to give her another chance* or anything. 
Oh right, we need to make his (now) ex as miserable as possible. It's not like she's a sympathetic character who most of us actually like, oh no.

How about the female friend who turned out to be a lesbian and in love with the stalker neighbor? Yeah, that _other_ hugely sympathetic character who was an all-around good person who does her best and was _also_ very well liked by readers? 
_Let's have her love-interest *(The female fupping lead)* lead her on, rape her while telling her how horrible she is at sex *while FemaleFriend's whimpering that it hurts* and then reject her._ Let's also have her find out about the MC's twisted arrangement, just to firmly cement how horrible her experience is and solidify that she has absolutely no hope and was basically used by Emirou.

And to top the whole shitstorm off, we later see her somewhat distancing herself from the group and having shaved her head as a sign of her broken heart! 
*Such an enjoyable story arc so full of purpose and wisdom.* Oh wait, _we're back to status quo minus a close friend who's now traumatized and heartbroken._ ("Signs", anyone?)

And that's just within the first 30 chapters folks. I like to define the "arcs" of this manga after who gets tormented. Everyone someone is put through hell, that's the new arc, and whenever that person's suffering has culminated and they've had enough, we move on to the next victim.




^^And this is why Nozoki Ana is horrible to me. It's _depressing and frustrating_ to see characters suffer just because the main characters are either temporarily evil or temporarily retarded, and most things that happen are horribly contrived and unlikely.

The reason *Shitsurakuen* is beyond terrible is a whole other can of sh*t. Nozoki Ana is just very niche and somewhat poorly portrayed. Shitsurakuen is down right _offensive_ to the reader, to the point where it's meaningless to try and explain how, you just have to read it and you'll understand.

If you enjoy Nozoki Ana, that's fine. This is just my own personal problem with it, and I have no problem with you for liking it. If this was an _objective_ list, I wouldn't put it so far down, or even call it a "bad" manga to begin with.

...If you like Shitsurakuen, I'm afraid I will have to kill you. I'm sorry, but that just means you're a liability to the human race, and you can't possibly be allowed to reproduce. It's just too risky.


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## 8 (Jun 25, 2013)

i do get your frustration with nozoki ana. for the same reason i can't stand series such as kimi no iru machi and good ending. but i guess i just didn't take this one as seriously. i kinda just sadistically waited for the shitstorms and then laughed at the stupid characters and their drama while enjoying the fanservice. what struck me positively was that the characters were not too shy or innocent. i got so used to those childish cliched characters such as tsundere's getting upset at a poor guy for accidentally spotting their pants, or characters making a big deal out of an "indirect kiss". in that way this was kinda refreshing. overall i think it's a quit fun series but i wouldn't rate it too high either.


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## OmniOmega (Jun 25, 2013)

I can't do a Top 5 list
*Top 10*
1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
2. Vagabond
3. Slam Dunk
4. One Piece
5. Vinland Saga
6. Billy Bat
7. Dorohedoro
8. Prison School
9. Oyasumi Punpun
10. Hunter X Hunter

*Worst*
1. Hitman Reborn
2. Air Gear
3. Fairy Tail
4. Ao no Exorcist 
5. Freezing
6. Bleach


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## Badalight (Jun 25, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> 1. *Toriko.*
> Unfunny, childish, *clich?* and all-around boring to read. I care about the characters about as much as I care about a plank of wood, the world it's set in is about equally immersive and roughly half as interesting and the "massive feats of strength" etc. are indescribably underwhelming. I consider it massively overrated. If you like this manga, good for you, but it's not my cup of tea.



bwahahaha

You completely missed the point - though it's probably due to your underdeveloped tastes.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 25, 2013)

Badalight said:


> bwahahaha
> 
> You completely missed the point - though it's probably due to your underdeveloped tastes.



Obvious flamebait is obvious. Go away. _Shoo!_


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## Badalight (Jun 25, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Obvious flamebait is obvious. Go away. _Shoo!_



It's not flamebait. Toriko is a parody, so naturally it becomes "funnier" when you have read more series. You get more of the jokes.

With someone like me who is tired of the over-saturation of shounen battle manga, things like Toriko and One Punch Man are a breath of fresh air.


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## Golden Witch (Jun 25, 2013)

OmniOmega said:


> I can't do a Top 5 list
> *Top 10*
> 1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
> 2. Vagabond
> ...



Fucking Air Gear man...
Doesn't happen to me with any other manga, heck no TV Program or anything but this fucking OG guy actually manages to downright hurt my brain with his shit.Not even joking here reading Air Gear in its later part legitly gave me major headaches.


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## Lockon Stratos (Jun 25, 2013)

Unpopular an opinion as it may be, I'm convinced that Bleach and Naruto are winding up on so many people's "Worst" lists just because hating on them is the cool thing to do these days. In my opinion, both series are surprisingly well executed considering their length.


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## Nanja (Jun 25, 2013)

> Oh great, now she's breaking down, begging him to take her back and give her a chance, completely and honestly intending to do her absolute best to make things work and all-around feeling horrible for everything that's happened and crying because she's honestly and truly in love with him.
> The MC supposedly loves her even more than she loves him? Pfft, fupp that. That's gone with the wind in point two seconds.
> Yay, enjoy the next 10 or so pages of a sympathetic character having her heart and emotions stomped on by the main character for absolutely no reason at all.



I don't like Nozoki either but you really calling him out on dumping that girl? That is like the most rational thing you do when you see your woman riding some other guy. If he went completely on his emotions he would have possibly killed the two of them. Using his head he just gave her the ditch. I felt nothing for her. She deserved to be broken.


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## Snowless (Jun 25, 2013)

Lockon Stratos said:


> Unpopular an opinion as it may be, I'm convinced that Bleach and Naruto are winding up on so many people's "Worst" lists just because hating on them is the cool thing to do these days. In my opinion, both series are surprisingly well executed considering their length.



Naruto was good for a long time; I think most people would agree with that. But I think the past year and how it's likely going to end is killing it for most people. Characterization has fallen apart and it's turning into the bad kind of stereotypical kind of fast. And the whole "sharingan is god" retcon is kind of obnoxious, as is the suddenly spiked power levels. Sasuke, Tobi, and now Orochimaru, are shells of what they used to be, in terms of characters. And Naruto is now some obnoxious saint, god figure.

Bleach just has bad execution. Its plot has picked up recently, but it was pretty stale for several years, and Kubo throws in so many fake hype moments and plot twists, that it seems cool when it's happening, but if you step back and look at the overall picture, it's just not executed all that well, and things almost contradict. And he's probably even worse with Kishimoto when it comes to neglecting his "now too big" cast of characters. And even if Kubo ends on a relative high note, as it seems he might, the series was following a mediocre plot line that allowed it have nothing but fights for years, and culminated with an all time low, before it even started to pick up the plot, and it has to rely on retcons to allow the new, better plot to even work. Also, the fact that we constantly have groups showing up out of nowhere is indicative of a lack of preplanning.

I think, by comparison, One Piece has a significantly more well executed plot, on several levels. (to compare them to another popular shonen) It just has far more forethought than the other two, which allows for a consistently really good (if not great) plotline.


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## Badalight (Jun 25, 2013)

It's hard to list "worst" mangas, because people tend to not read manga they don't like. That's why you get stuff like Naruto and Bleach on their worst lists. Obviously there are worse manga out there, but people don't read them.


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## Blue (Jun 25, 2013)

To be honest Naruto and Bleach are not only not in the bottom 50% of worst manga, they're not even in the bottom 50% of worst _popular_ manga. If you really think Naruto is worse than, for instance, Hitman Reborn! or Rosario+Vampire, you have bad fucking taste.

Of course there are other reasons to like a series like Rosario*, so there's no reason it couldn't legitimately end up on someone's best list. But mainstream shounen on worst? pffffffffffft.



*tits


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## Lockon Stratos (Jun 25, 2013)

Snowless said:


> Naruto was good for a long time; I think most people would agree with that. But I think the past year and how it's likely going to end is killing it for most people. Characterization has fallen apart and it's turning into the bad kind of stereotypical kind of fast. And the whole "sharingan is god" retcon is kind of obnoxious, as is the suddenly spiked power levels. Sasuke, Tobi, and now Orochimaru, are shells of what they used to be, in terms of characters. And Naruto is now some obnoxious saint, god figure.
> 
> Bleach just has bad execution. Its plot has picked up recently, but it was pretty stale for several years, and Kubo throws in so many fake hype moments and plot twists, that it seems cool when it's happening, but if you step back and look at the overall picture, it's just not executed all that well, and things almost contradict. And he's probably even worse with Kishimoto when it comes to neglecting his "now too big" cast of characters. And even if Kubo ends on a relative high note, as it seems he might, the series was following a mediocre plot line that allowed it have nothing but fights for years, and culminated with an all time low, before it even started to pick up the plot, and it has to rely on retcons to allow the new, better plot to even work. Also, the fact that we constantly have groups showing up out of nowhere is indicative of a lack of preplanning.
> 
> I think, by comparison, One Piece has a significantly more well executed plot, on several levels. (to compare them to another popular shonen) It just has far more forethought than the other two, which allows for a consistently really good (if not great) plotline.



Those are reasonable arguments for why they may not be the greatest manga of all time, but I'm still not seeing anything near "Worst 5" out of it.

Like the 2 people above me implied, Worst 5 quality manga is the kind of crap one reads half of Chapter 1 of and puts down in disgust. Not something they read and enjoy for 400 chapters and then decide it's going downhill.


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## Snowless (Jun 25, 2013)

Lockon Stratos said:


> Those are reasonable arguments for why they may not be the greatest manga of all time, but I'm still not seeing anything near "Worst 5" out of it.
> 
> Like the 2 people above me implied, Worst 5 quality manga is the kind of crap one reads half of Chapter 1 of and puts down in disgust. Not something they read and enjoy for 400 chapters and then decide it's going downhill.



Yeah, makes sense. It's more of "worst of ones you like enough to still read."


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## ~Greed~ (Jun 26, 2013)

*best*

1.) GTO - Great Teacher Onizuka
2.) Rurouni Kenshin
3.) Flame Of Recca
4.) FMA
5.) Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer

*worst* 
1.) girls saures 
2.) dance in the vampire bund
3.) air gear
4.) gantz
5.) ikkitousen


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## 8 (Jun 26, 2013)

Mizura said:


> Never read Nozoki Ana. Not planning to, ever. Shoujo drama can be done well (Nana), but in 90% of the cases... nah.
> 
> Ugh, I'm starting to remember other horrible Shoujos that start well. Arisa for one. It was quite interesting at first, it made you wonder what sort of elaborate plot was involved, it turns out that everybody's just batshit crazy.


it's actually seinen. one with a lot of sex and nudity. in fact the whole plot is designed for the sake of fanservice. its also typical the kind of fanservice that is aimed at males. i doubt many female readers would enjoy it. 

but i can see how after reading MadmanRobz's summary one could easilly assume it's shoujo. with the forced drama and a rape scene. and i bet if your already sick of romance series with a lot of forced drama your better off staying away from this one as well.


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## Bitty (Jun 26, 2013)

1.Full Metal Alchemist
2.Dragon Ball
3.Naruto(Part 1)
4.One Piece
5.Rurouni Kenshin/Yu-Yu Hakusho

don't really have a top 5 worst, but Fairy Tale is probably my least favorite.


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## Mizura (Jun 26, 2013)

Snowless said:


> Yeah, makes sense. It's more of "worst of ones you like enough to still read."


Basically. There are several factors at work, basically, as to why those series would be mentioned:

They're simply the most read. Even outside these forums, they are the most well-known of anime/manga. If they've read 10 popular series and Bleach is on the list, it has a fair chance of ending on one of their lists.
You can't forget their existence here. This forum has: a Naruto section, a Bleach section, and a One Piece section. The people Here are reminded of their existence every day. By contrast, most of the really shitty stuff, most people stop early on and/or try to forget they ever existed. I didn't even remember Shitsurakuen until someone mentioned it, and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten even shittier stuff.
A bit like the above, but... they're weekly series that have gone on forever. Sometimes I forget that Nausicaa existed, for example, because it ended a long time ago. People tend to state what they like or dislike Now, unless some series has Really made a big impression on them (good or bad).

So, people either never read the really bad stuff, didn't read enough pages to get a strong impression, or it was so long ago that they forgot about it since.



8 said:


> it's actually seinen. one with a lot of sex and nudity. in fact the whole plot is designed for the sake of fanservice. its also typical the kind of fanservice that is aimed at males. i doubt many female readers would enjoy it.


Ah. ... doesn't sound like the males here are enjoying it either.


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## Roman (Jun 26, 2013)

Golden Witch said:


> Fucking Air Gear man...
> Doesn't happen to me with any other manga, heck no TV Program or anything but this fucking OG guy actually manages to downright hurt my brain with his shit.Not even joking here reading Air Gear in its later part legitly gave me major headaches.



Oh Great is just a horrible writer to begin with. His art style is almost a direct copy of the artist for Death Note and Bakuman, and his stories might seem compelling in the first several chapters, but before long they'll go left field and then a fucking U turn. Tenjou Tenge's a good example of that. I used to like it a lot in the early days since it was basically about these guys who inadvertently got involved and then enrolled in this school were sports clubs were essentially martial arts clubs of one kind or another. And good amounts of ecchi here and there which I don't mind if it's not right in your face.

After some time, the ecchi did get right in your face. But that's not the worst of it. It went from a martial arts/school life story to one featuring zombies on wheelchairs and 3/4 naked girls with lightsabers. How the fuck......

And Air Gear did that shift A LOT faster than TT.



Mizura said:


> Basically. There are several factors at work, basically, as to why those series would be mentioned:
> 
> They're simply the most read. Even outside these forums, they are the most well-known of anime/manga. If they've read 10 popular series and Bleach is on the list, it has a fair chance of ending on one of their lists.
> You can't forget their existence here. This forum has: a Naruto section, a Bleach section, and a One Piece section. The people Here are reminded of their existence every day. By contrast, most of the really shitty stuff, most people stop early on and/or try to forget they ever existed. I didn't even remember Shitsurakuen until someone mentioned it, and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten even shittier stuff.
> ...



Which is precisely why I didn't list my top 5 worst manga because there's no way I'd actually remember them for how horrible they were unless I read it all the way through. I could list the ones I like the least but that wouldn't really count. For instance, I didn't even think about Air Gear until someone mentioned it.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 26, 2013)

Badalight said:


> It's not flamebait. Toriko is a parody, so naturally it becomes "funnier" when you have read more series. You get more of the jokes.
> 
> With someone like me who is tired of the over-saturation of shounen battle manga, things like Toriko and One Punch Man are a breath of fresh air.



I'm no stranger to manga. My list of fully read manga is at around 70 at the moment, and the list of manga that I'm still reading but have yet to finish (like ongoing series etc.) puts it at above 180.
I am also notorious for being easily amused. I'm that one dude who laughs at every joke ever despite it being unfunny and the hundredth time I hear it. I even laugh at the jokes that are made specifically to be too bad to laugh at.

Even then, Toriko has yet to make me laugh once. It's obnoxious, over the top, in your face, exceedingly childish and in no way actually a good parody of shounen. It's basically a bad fart joke incarnate.
(Purely my opinion.)


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## B Rabbit (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah Toriko has a lot of haters ( I don't understand I love Toriko) but I don't see how it's a parody.


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## God Movement (Jun 26, 2013)

that's because it's not a parody


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## Roman (Jun 26, 2013)

I haven't read Toriko so I could be wrong, but I wager that it's not a parody, but it's more like Fairy Tail in the sense that it doesn't take itself seriously. If you want to read a parody, check out Onepunch Man.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 26, 2013)

Isn't he the same guy who called it a parody months ago, and was proven wrong?


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## God Movement (Jun 26, 2013)

i'm pretty sure yeah

it has no parodic qualities


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 26, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Yeah Toriko has a lot of haters ( I don't understand I love Toriko) but I don't see how it's a parody.





God Movement said:


> that's because it's not a parody





Freedan said:


> I haven't read Toriko so I could be wrong, but I wager that it's not a parody, but it's more like Fairy Tail in the sense that it doesn't take itself seriously. If you want to read a parody, check out Onepunch Man.





Eminem said:


> Isn't he the same guy who called it a parody months ago, and was proven wrong?





God Movement said:


> i'm pretty sure yeah
> 
> it has no parodic qualities



Oh god damn it I got baited after all. -.-''


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## OtherGalaxy (Jun 26, 2013)

p-lou said:


> a lady is fucked by a large pig for a porno
> 
> this is the day after they film a gang bang with the same lady
> 
> and is observed by two little children wearing gas masks


..
...
....
.....
what


TwentyFifthNight said:


> WE is an okay manga.
> I agree that it's pretty dull at some moments though.
> On another note, Code Breaker is another manga that i find dull for some reasons.



Code Breaker is the Birdemic of manga


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 26, 2013)

Freedan said:


> I haven't read Toriko so I could be wrong, but I wager that it's not a parody, but it's more like Fairy Tail in the sense that it doesn't take itself seriously. If you want to read a parody, check out Onepunch Man.



Toriko is a lot more serious then Fairy tail has ever been.


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## p-lou (Jun 26, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> ..
> ...
> ....
> .....
> what



The kids eat the pig later

And that's not even the most screwed up part of the story

And even after all of that the ending to it is still sweet and touching.


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## OtherGalaxy (Jun 26, 2013)

I feel like I shouldn't be curious but I really can't help it at this point


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## Badalight (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes, the same guy who made this manga...

eikimatsu Leader den Takeshi!


Didn't make Toriko as a parody...

Just because it's more subtle than something like One Punch Man doesn't mean it's not a parody. Are horror movies without jump scares still horror movies? Of course. 

"parody … is imitation, not always at the expense of the parodied text."

Also, taking itself seriously doesn't mean it's not a parody. In fact, in a lot of cases that's PART of the parody aspect. They are fighting a massive world war over 1 piece of food. They have a gourmet mafia. That's what makes it funny.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 26, 2013)

Toriko's not even funny.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 26, 2013)

Just because the mangaka previously made a gag manga doesn't make Toriko a parody.
It's a decent battle manga that has a lot of gags, but gags aren't always a parody.


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## Toriko (Jun 26, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Toriko's not even funny.



The viz translation is pretty funny. Toriko and Tom's convo's about his 30 pound shits for example 

They aren't free but well worth the cash. Kewl does a good job translating Toriko all things considered, but the official stuff is that much better.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 26, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> I feel like I shouldn't be curious but I really can't help it at this point



read it

do it

jiro matsumoto is the man


----------



## Bilaal (Jun 27, 2013)

one of the goats


----------



## Jungle (Jun 27, 2013)

Actually, I don't need to do this anymore.


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## Razzzz (Jun 27, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> I'm no stranger to manga. My list of fully read manga is at around 70 at the moment, and the list of manga that I'm still reading but have yet to finish (like ongoing series etc.) puts it at above 180.
> I am also notorious for being easily amused. I'm that one dude who laughs at every joke ever despite it being unfunny and the hundredth time I hear it. I even laugh at the jokes that are made specifically to be too bad to laugh at.
> 
> Even then, Toriko has yet to make me laugh once. It's obnoxious, over the top, in your face, exceedingly *childish *and in no way actually a good parody of shounen. It's basically a bad fart joke incarnate.
> (Purely my opinion.)



Are you criticizing something blatantly aimed at young teenage boys as childish....

The fuck?


----------



## Powerful Lord (Jun 27, 2013)

Freedan said:


> I haven't read Toriko so I could be wrong, but I wager that it's not a parody, but it's more like Fairy Tail in the sense that it doesn't take itself seriously. If you want to read a parody, check out Onepunch Man.



Lol, i don't think Toriko qualifies to be one of the best mangas but it has shown a far better execution and more originallity than Fairy Tail ever did.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 27, 2013)

Razzzz said:


> Are you criticizing something blatantly aimed at young teenage boys as childish....
> 
> The fuck?



...Why do people like you always grossly underestimate teenagers?
"Childish" is ages 2-10, Toriko is aimed towards _teenagers_ who are thinking, rational human beings.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 27, 2013)

Toriko said:


> The viz translation is pretty funny. Toriko and Tom's convo's about his 30 pound shits for example
> 
> They aren't free but well worth the cash. Kewl does a good job translating Toriko all things considered, but the official stuff is that much better.



Really? Well I can't wait to read it because Toriko is the next series I'm collecting after One Piece and YYH.


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## Razzzz (Jun 27, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...Why do people like you always grossly underestimate teenagers?
> "Childish" is ages 2-10, Toriko is aimed towards _teenagers_ who are thinking, rational human beings.



Toriko is childish because it presents a suitable story for children with no ambitions beyond that sole purpose, so for you to complain that it's childish is well, plain stupid.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 27, 2013)

Razzzz said:


> Toriko is childish because it presents a suitable story for children with no ambitions beyond that sole purpose, so for you to complain that it's childish is well, plain stupid.



Wait, you're saying it's stupid of me to explain that I find a childish manga to be childish in a thread *whose purpose is explicitly to state manga you don't like, and preferably explain why?*  

Toriko is *not* aimed towards children, it's a shonen made for teenaged boys.

You're an idiot. Stop being an idiot.


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## daisydee (Jun 27, 2013)

Top 5 best... it's hard, there are a lot that I like, maybe as a top 3: Naruto, Bleach, Kubera (no specific order).
Top 5 worst... a top 3: Uzumaki, Hotel and... Worst.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Wait, you're saying it's stupid of me to explain that I find a childish manga to be childish in a thread *whose purpose is explicitly to state manga you don't like, and preferably explain why?*
> 
> Toriko is *not* aimed towards children, it's a shonen made for teenaged boys.
> 
> You're an idiot. Stop being an idiot.



I know you're a fan of Naruto so I shouldn't be too logical with you, but you do realize that Shonen is Japanese for YOUNG BOY right?


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 27, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I know you're a fan of Naruto so I shouldn't be too logical with you, but you do realize that Shonen is Japanese for YOUNG BOY right?



*Because enjoying a specific manga is indicative of someone's intelligence. Good job, you.*

I am well aware of the meaning. The "Young boy" audience is, in fact young _teens_(13~), not children around 5. Shonen is not a children's genre. Even in Japan, do you _really_ think the face melting and insect nightmare fuel in Bleach is made for kids under 12? 
There are shonen out there who border on seinen, and the difference can actually be very blurred at times. (Incidentally, Bleach itself is bordering it already with the nightmare fuel.)


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> *Because enjoying a specific manga is indicative of someone's intelligence. Good job, you.*
> 
> I am well aware of the meaning. The "Young boy" audience is, in fact young _teens_(13~), not children around 5. Shonen is not a children's genre. Even in Japan, do you _really_ think the face melting and insect nightmare fuel in Bleach is made for kids under 12?
> There are shonen out there who border on seinen, and the difference can actually be very blurred at times. (Incidentally, Bleach itself is bordering it already with the nightmare fuel.)



Yes actually it is.

And clearly you don't. Different cultures allow their children to view different things. Weekly Shonen Jump is a manga aimed at young males, can people older then that enjoy it? Certainly, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about so you should just stop before you embarrass yourself further. 

Also did you just say there are shonen that border on seinen? You do realize that shonen and seinen are demographics and not genres right?


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## Powerful Lord (Jun 27, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Yes actually it is.
> 
> And clearly you don't. Different cultures allow their children to view different things. Weekly Shonen Jump is a manga aimed at young males, can people older then that enjoy it? Certainly, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about so you should just stop before you embarrass yourself further.
> 
> Also did you just say there are shonen that border on seinen? You do realize that shonen and seinen are demographics and not genres right?



He didn't really have a very diferente opinion than you, it seems to me like you're going against him because he likes naruto


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

Powerful Lord said:


> He didn't really have a very diferente opinion than you, it seems to me like you're going against him because he likes naruto



That's not it at all (although him liking Naruto does make whatever he says moot). I just dislike people misrepresenting what demographics are. Shonen and Seinen are not genres, and Shonen manga ARE AIMED at young males. Just because Japan has a different culture then us doesn't mean we can just go and claim that shonen is actually for teenage males because that is just complete bullshit.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 27, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> That's not it at all (although him liking Naruto does make whatever he says moot). I just dislike people misrepresenting what demographics are. Shonen and Seinen are not genres, and Shonen manga ARE AIMED at young males. Just because Japan has a different culture then us doesn't mean we can just go and claim that shonen is actually for teenage males because that is just complete bullshit.



I believe a famous quote is in order here.
_"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "_

You need to leave. Like, right now, before you make yourself look even more stupid than you already have. I refuse to believe someone could be as much of a condescending and smug know-it-all *prick* as what you have just now portrayed yourself as. Please do not prove me wrong.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> I believe a famous quote is in order here.
> _"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "_
> 
> You need to leave. Like, right now, before you make yourself look even more stupid than you already have. I refuse to believe someone could be as much of a condescending and smug know-it-all *prick* as what you have just now portrayed yourself as. Please do not prove me wrong.



I am a condescending prick, I've never denied that. You however are stating blatant mistruths and lies about demographics. If anybody is embarrassing themselves or making themselves look ignorant here it is yourself.

Not to mention, all you seem capable of doing is insulting people and calling them idiots. Please try and grow up a bit buddy.


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## Powerful Lord (Jun 27, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I am a condescending prick, I've never denied that. You however are stating blatant mistruths and lies about demographics. If anybody is embarrassing themselves or making themselves look ignorant here it is yourself.





> Shōnen, shonen, or shounen manga (少年漫画 shōnen manga?) is manga marketed to a male audience aged roughly 10 and up.



What he said still holds according to that information, 10 years old and up is old enough to get manga that are not dumbed down.


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## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

Powerful Lord said:


> What he said still holds according to that information, 10 years old and up is old enough to get manga that are not dumbed down.



*Shōnen (少年?), shonen, or shounen, is a Kanji word literally meaning few years and generally referring to a typical boy, from elementary school through grade school age. *

And he is complaining about manga being dumbed down or poorly written when he is a Naruto fan? Is he just trolling or something?


----------



## Toriko (Jun 27, 2013)

@Naruto guy

Nothing's childish about Toriko and Starjun smashing each other's heads off in the most graphic way possible. 

Seriously, Toriko is one of the more violent and graphic shounens that I've read.



> Really? Well I can't wait to read it because Toriko is the next series I'm collecting after One Piece and YYH



Yeah, truthfully the atmosphere and character personalities are a whole lot better with the viz translation, the dialogue flows better ect.

It's really worth the cash bro.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 27, 2013)

I've actually started Toriko a day or two ago, and I'm currently around chapter 30, and I like it so far.
I see Toriko being one of my favorite shonens, behind One Piece and FMA (which is sometimes hard to believe is one).

Also, shonens might technically be targeted towards young teens, or whatever, but often their appeal is more reaching than that. 
Here's a pie chart of One Piece's demographics: Berserk The Golden Age Arc III - The Descent

But, I also don't really want to get caught up in an argument about this, just saying that everyone can enjoy shonens, and they can have serious, mature, and adult moments as well as the more childish ones. And most do, I think.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

Snowless said:


> I've actually started Toriko a day or two ago, and I'm currently around chapter 30, and I like it so far.
> I see Toriko being one of my favorite shonens, behind One Piece and FMA (which is sometimes hard to believe is one).
> 
> Also, shonens might technically be targeted towards young teens, or whatever, but often their appeal is more reaching than that.
> ...



I am not denying that at all. In fact I have outright said exactly what you said.
The fact remains though that he was trying to say that shonen mangas demographics are for teenagers which is completely and utterly false.


----------



## Badalight (Jun 27, 2013)

Razzzz said:


> Toriko is childish because it presents a suitable story for children with no ambitions beyond that sole purpose, so for you to complain that it's childish is well, plain stupid.



Yes. Toriko getting 3 limbs blown off and impaled 7 times in a single chapter makes Toriko a kiddy manga.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

Badalight said:


> Yes. Toriko getting 3 limbs blown off and impaled 7 times in a single chapter makes Toriko a kiddy manga.



Once again, different cultures have different views on what is suitable for children. 
The grand story and tone of Toriko in general is childish though. That isn't a bad thing, but at its core it is just a fun series about adventure. 

Not to mention you are the person who thinks Toriko is a parody so it isn't like you have any idea what you are talking about in the first place.


----------



## Badalight (Jun 27, 2013)

If you don't consider it a parody, at the very least it rides on the line to being one - in the same vein as Gurren Lagann making fun of giant mech shows while still being a homage to them.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 27, 2013)

Badalight said:


> If you don't consider it a parody, at the very least it rides on the line to being one - in the same vein as Gurren Lagann making fun of giant mech shows while still being a homage to them.



Homages are not the same as parody.
Yes, Toriko does pay a bit of homage to the battle shonen of the 80's, but it does not parody them in any way whatsoever. I'd really suggest you look up word meanings.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 27, 2013)

You can't really use the One Piece pie chart because thats for One Piece only. The same series that's been going on for 16 years, and has several different generations reading it.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 27, 2013)

Toriko said:


> @Naruto guy
> 
> Nothing's childish about Toriko and Starjun smashing each other's heads off in the most graphic way possible.
> 
> ...



Yeah that's why I'm getting it. The translations for Viz are way better for most manga.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 27, 2013)

Eminem said:


> You can't really use the One Piece pie chart because thats for One Piece only. The same series that's been going on for 16 years, and has several different generations reading it.



It's the only chart I knew existed, because I've seen it already.
But that's a good point.


----------



## 8 (Jun 28, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Yes actually it is.
> 
> And clearly you don't. Different cultures allow their children to view different things. Weekly Shonen Jump is a manga aimed at young males, can people older then that enjoy it? Certainly, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about so you should just stop before you embarrass yourself further.
> 
> Also did you just say there are shonen that border on seinen? You do realize that shonen and seinen are demographics and not genres right?


so you are telling me that all shonen include death note, akame ga kiru, shingeki no kyujin are all aimed at pre-teens as main demographics? not even young teens around 13 years old as MadmanRobz suggest but more like 8 year olds.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

8 said:


> so you are telling me that all shonen include death note, akame ga kiru, shingeki no kyujin are all aimed at pre-teens as main demographics? not even young teens around 13 years old as MadmanRobz suggest but more like 8 year olds.



The magazines themselves are, yes. 
As I stated, Japan has a much different culture than us.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

I'll just leave this here. Seeing how it seems relevant to the current conversation 








> TEEN. May be suitable for early teens and older. For example, may contain violence, infrequent use of strong language, suggestive themes or situations, crude humor, alcohol and/or tobacco use.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> I'll just leave this here. Seeing how it seems relevant to the current conversation



Good to see you've proven yet again that you are incapable of reading by posting the "rating" for the US version of Jump.
Japan does not have the same culture as America does. Just because we might find something objectionable for children does not mean that Japan does as well, and vice versa.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Clearly "Teen" means something _vastly_ different when your father is in the imaginary CIA.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

krory said:


> Clearly "Teen" means something _vastly_ different when your father is in the imaginary CIA.



Hey smartass, I even posted the fucking Linkedin profile. My father did work for the CIA in the 90's that much is a fucking fact. And I don't even see the fucking point of you bringing that up in this thread. 
Go fuck yourself and stop baiting me.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

Bleach - T for Teen. 

One piece - T for Teen. 

Naruto - T for Teen. 

Death Note - T + 

Hunter x Hunter - T +

Directly from the Viz website.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Bleach - T for Teen.
> 
> One piece - T for Teen.
> 
> ...



...Once again, why are you incapable of reading? You posted the ratings for the US version of Jump. Not the Japanese version. Japan has a different culture and different standards of what is considered objectionable for children.  Why do you insist on embarrassing yourself like this?

Also you have been told by mods time and time again not to have any contact with me, nor discuss about me. You are clearly just baiting me and I'm onto your little bullshit games. You aren't anywhere close to as smart as you think you are.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> ...Once again, why are you incapable of reading? You posted the ratings for the US version of Jump. Not the Japanese version. Japan has a different culture and different standards of what is considered objectionable for children.  Why do you insist on embarrassing yourself like this?



Show me the ratings for the Japanese versions then


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Bleach - T for Teen.
> 
> One piece - T for Teen.
> 
> ...





Fiona said:


> Show me the ratings for the Japanese versions then



There are no fucking "ratings" for the Japanese version. 
The Japanese version is a SHONEN DEMOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES WHICH MEANS IT IS FOR YOUNG BOYS. WHY DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?

You are clearly just pretending to be retarded to bait me so that I can blatantly insult you by calling you a name like you have done in the past but that isn't gong to work this time kiddo.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Guh, Fiona... you're not getting it. "T" stands for "Tykes" when your estranged father is a homeless drunk in the "CIA."

So clearly it is meant for little kids with disillusioned fantasies to compensate with their abandonment issues.


----------



## Mizura (Jun 28, 2013)

Actually, the fact that the characters literally mean "few years" is actually misleading. The same term is used in Chinese (少年）, but it's used to mean "young man." If you go see a friend, and he has a 17 years-old son, Shounen would be used to describe him. I'm half Chinese and live in China, so yes I know what I'm talking about. :\

If you don't believe me, Sailor Moon in Japan is described as Bishōjo Senshi Sērāmūn, with Bishōjo meaning Beautiful Shoujo. Well Sailor Moon girls are all 14. You can find plenty of manga with "Shounen" in their titles, and most of them will be about mid-teens too. Speaking of Bishojo, Bishoujo and Bishounen are used often to describe pretty girls and guys, and not the age group that'd get you landed in jail for being a p*d*p****...

Different Shounen magazines will target different age groups, from younger teens to older teens. The magazine Shingeki no Kyojin is published in targets an older teen group than Shounen Jump, for example.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

krory said:


> Guh, Fiona... you're not getting it. "T" stands for "Tykes" when your estranged father is a homeless drunk in the "CIA."
> 
> So clearly it is meant for little kids with disillusioned fantasies to compensate with their abandonment issues.



SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR MINDLESS FUCKING BAITING!


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

Mizura said:


> Actually, the fact that the characters literally mean "few years" is actually misleading. The same term is used in Chinese (少年）, but it's used to mean "young man." If you go see a friend, and he has a 17 years-old son, Shounen would be used to describe him. I'm half Chinese and live in China, so yes I know what I'm talking about. :\
> 
> If you don't believe me, Sailor Moon in Japan is described as Bishōjo Senshi Sērāmūn, with Bishōjo meaning Beautiful Shoujo. Well Sailor Moon girls are all 14. You can find plenty of manga with "Shounen" in their titles, and most of them will be about mid-teens too.
> 
> Different Shounen magazines will target different age groups, from younger teens to older teens. The magazine Shingeki no Kyojin is published in targets an older teen group than Shounen Jump, for example.



I love how you are trying to claim that a certain term or phrase will mean the same in a different language. 

Also that is again bullshit in terms of you referring that different shonen magazines target older groups. If that is the case then why does Doubutsu no Mori also run in the same magazine as Shingeki no Kyojin? The Japanese simply have different standards of what is considered objectionable for children. You guys are unbelievably ridiculous.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Even when met with _fact_ that proves him irrefutably wrong, he thinks he's right.  Must be that stubborn CIA training his imaginary father showed him.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> There are no fucking "ratings" for the Japanese version.
> The Japanese version is a SHONEN DEMOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES WHICH MEANS IT IS FOR YOUNG BOYS. WHY DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?
> 
> You are clearly just pretending to be retarded to bait me so that I can blatantly insult you by calling you a name like you have done in the past but that isn't gong to work this time kiddo.



Wow you are actually right and wrong on this one at the same time. 



> Shounen Jump is listed as all ages in Japan because one of the core features of the magazine itself is that many of the series have themes about friendship. Despite this rating though it is still regulated by parents because of the sometimes violent and promiscuous nature of some of the content.



So yes it is not rated but some of its content is seen as unsuitable for small children. 

Or are you actually gonna claim that this 

2

is appropriate for small children?


----------



## Mizura (Jun 28, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I love how you are trying to claim that a certain term or phrase will mean the same in a different language.


Yeah, because Japanese doesn't borrow a huge chunk of its terms from Chinese. Oh wait.

And it still doesn't change the fact that the Shoujo girls of Sailor Moon are 14. 

Japanese titles with Shounen in them:
2
2
2
2
2

Do those look like pre-teens to you? :\


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 28, 2013)

Snowless said:


> Is this sarcasm?



No, One Piece art is fucking awful.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Big Bοss said:


> No, One Piece art is fucking awful.



 Oh, man... if that ain't the truth...


----------



## ~Howling~ (Jun 28, 2013)

Best:
Berserk(haven't read after the Golden Age arc)
FMA(even though i've only watched Brothehood,but still)
Bleach 
OP

And idk for the rest.There a couple i want to put here but i need to read more chapters of em .
As for worst idk.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 28, 2013)

Big Bοss said:


> No, One Piece art is fucking awful.



The art is actually really good.
I assume it's the character designs you don't like.
But even they're really not that bad.

And the plot is pretty fantastic, I think, as is the worldbuilding and character interactions.

Which really makes up for not liking some of the character designs.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

Personally my favs are

Bleach 
Rosario Vampire
Naruto (Love to hate kind of thing) 

I have been meaning to start trying One Piece, Fairy Tail, and a few others but i can never focus enough to really try. 


But thats mostly because i am more of a Anime person. I prefer to watch these kind of stories rather than read. When i read i like reading novels.


----------



## Xiammes (Jun 28, 2013)

> According to Japanese law, the term "shonen" refers to "a person from the time they enter elementary school until the time they are 15 years of age",[1] and "Any person who has not reached the age of 15 years" (Juvenile Law (少年法 Shonen Hō?), Article 2.1). In the realm of education and culture, this is the period of compulsory education. While the term "shonen" can refer to both young males and young females, the generally accepted term for young females is shōjo.



Shonen is a broad category that can't be tied down to one specific age category. Japanese don't have a word for teenager, so the distinction between young male and teenager is not there.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Shonen is a broad category that can't be tied down to one specific age category. Japanese don't have a word for teenager, so the distinction between young male and teenager is not there.



I will partly concede. With my limited comprehension of the Japanese I assumed shonen was an exclusive term for young boys.
Fiona is still in the wrong though for trying to use the fucking Western ratings to prove a point.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jun 28, 2013)

Ok, serious list now:

Best:

1. Vagabond
2. Berserk
3. Chronicles of the Cursed Sword
4. Crossbone Gundam
5. Slam Dunk

Worst:

Hxh

Togashi is still a lazy bastard.


----------



## Xiammes (Jun 28, 2013)

Its kind of obvious when the word teenager stems from the suffix of the words thirteen to nineteen of the English language.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Fiona is still in the wrong though for trying to use the fucking Western ratings to prove a point.



My Point is that the Magazine is rated T for teen in the U.S. 

How was I wrong?

The discussion was over the General Age that the content would appropriate for. 

I posted the Ratings of the US version to add some perspective and to show the general range as seen by Viz Media in the US


----------



## Xiammes (Jun 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> My Point is that the Magazine is rated T for teen in the U.S.
> 
> How was I wrong?



I think its because you were arguing with what the what the US rates it as is not what the demographic for shonen is, which is preadolescence males.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Nothing she said was wrong. It's not her fault people are fucking dense enough to apply their own wildly inane assumptions and misinterpretations to things.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 28, 2013)

I will admit that it seemed like i was trying to say that was the rating for the whole thing but that wasnt my intention. 

I believe the ratings that viz has listed are pretty spot on. 

Bleach definitely has some panels that i wouldnt be showing to my little cousins. 

Naruto can be pretty clean for the most part, but can be pretty violent at times and also some language at times. 

One Piece is also very friendly as far as story goes from what i have seen, but the art style is pretty suggestive as far as the females are shown.

So i believe a suggested age range of just "Teen" is a pretty safe bet as a whole. Not all of them are like that, but there is enough to where i believe there is a pretty solid case for an overall rating of Teen for the Magazine as a whole.


----------



## Mizura (Jun 28, 2013)

Snowless said:


> The art is actually really good.
> I assume it's the character designs you don't like.
> But even they're really not that bad.
> 
> ...


Objectively, One Piece really does have great art, great worldbuilding and great writing.

Because of his particular artstyle though, the "personal preference" aspect can play a big part. For example, I was fine with the way he drew girls in Part I, but somehow it has started to really grate on me in Part 2. Then I realized that in Part I, he just drew the girls rather skinny, Luffy is skinny somehow too so it didn't seem like much. But in Part II, he gave them all this really exaggerated hourglass shape, which made it look like they all had plastic surgery to remove 2 ribcages in a misguided attempt to look sexy. It just makes me twitch every time I see it, which is unfortunately quite often since just about all the girls in One Piece have the same body shape...

It's a matter of personal opinion, but I think I'd enjoy One Piece 30% more if the girls actually had enough place in there for their lungs and intestines. It just really distracts me from all the good parts. As I said, it's personal preference, but it's So distracting to me. ;_;

Come to think of it, there were a bunch of Shoujo series that I could have enjoyed a bit more if the eyes weren't 60% the height of the face and enough sparklies to light a dance club... I'm not bothered by big eyes usually, but there were a few cases where it got really ridiculous... (I don't remember which one exactly though)


----------



## Snowless (Jun 28, 2013)

Mizura said:


> Objectively, One Piece really does have great art, great worldbuilding and great writing.
> 
> Because of his particular artstyle though, the "personal preference" aspect can play a big part. For example, I was fine with the way he drew girls in Part I, but somehow it has started to really grate on me in Part 2. Then I realized that in Part I, he just drew the girls rather skinny, Luffy is skinny somehow too so it didn't seem like much. But in Part II, he gave them all this really exaggerated hourglass shape, which made it look like they all had plastic surgery to remove 2 ribcages in a misguided attempt to look sexy. It just makes me twitch every time I see it, which is unfortunately quite often since just about all the girls in One Piece have the same body shape...
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of how he's started drawing them, either. I think they're a little too skinny.
But, hey, at least we'll get some variation. And I've gotten used to it.

But as for variation: Big Mom, Lola (the chubby girl from Thriller Bark that gave the SHs a vivre card and said her mother was a fearsome pirate), Catarina Devon, and Hancock's sisters (assuming we see them again) all having varying body types, which is nice.

But I know what you mean. Nami, Robin, Hancock, Baby 5, and now Violet all have pretty identical body types.


----------



## Olivia (Jun 28, 2013)

Just so you guys know, this list of mine aren't exactly based on quality of the story or character development, but how much I can actually enjoy it. If I can't enjoy the setting or the manga itself, everything else fails for me.
*
Top Five Most Enjoyed Manga:*
1. Shingeki no Kyojin
2. Medaka Box
3. Full Metal Alchemist
4. Death Note
5. Naruto
*
Bottom Five Least Enjoyable Manga:*
1. Air Gear
2. Katekyo Hitman Reborn
3. 07 Ghost
4. One Piece
5. Gantz

These are ranked in no specific order for both lists.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 28, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Just so you guys know, this list of mine aren't exactly based on quality of the story or character development, but how much I can actually enjoy it. If I can't enjoy the setting or the manga itself, everything else fails for me.
> *
> Top Five Most Enjoyed Manga:*
> 1. Shingeki no Kyojin
> ...



Well, I won't give you shit for your opinion, but I do always feel a little sad when I see One Piece on someone's bottom 5 list, because I've grown to like it so much and think so highly of it.
How far did you get before you dropped it?


----------



## Olivia (Jun 28, 2013)

Snowless said:


> Well, I won't give you shit for your opinion, but I do always feel a little sad when I see One Piece on someone's bottom 5 list, because I've grown to like it so much and think so highly of it.
> How far did you get before you dropped it?



Personally, I enjoyed it up until the Water Seven arc, or maybe even up to Thriller Bark, but everything after went severely down hill for me. I basically stopped at Fishman Island, but I did go through a marathon once that arc was finished and read up to the Law vs Smoker fight, but I haven't continued since, and currently don't have plans to. 

It just isn't my manga I suppose. I mean, I can certainty see why others would enjoy it, but I feel like I have to drag myself to read a single chapter, and when I have to do that, it certainty doesn't bode well. Not saying the manga is bad, it just isn't for me.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 28, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Personally, I enjoyed it up until the Water Seven arc, or maybe even up to Thriller Bark, but everything after went severely down hill for me. I basically stopped at Fishman Island, but I did go through a marathon once that arc was finished and read up to the Law vs Smoker fight, but I haven't continued since, and currently don't have plans to.
> 
> It just isn't my manga I suppose. I mean, I can certainty see why others would enjoy it, but I feel like I have to drag myself to read a single chapter, and when I have to do that, it certainty doesn't bode well. Not saying the manga is bad, it just isn't for me.



Well, if it helps at all, it's really picked up in quality since Fishman Island, I think.
But if you don't want to read it, I suppose that's fair.


----------



## God Movement (Jun 28, 2013)

one piece has bad art?


----------



## TwentyFifthNight (Jun 28, 2013)

Well, not really bad.
Childish at times/goofy is probably the correct term.


----------



## Powerful Lord (Jun 28, 2013)

Eichira Oda's artwork is unique, my only problem with it is how he draws the female characters, aside from that it's one of my favorites


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jun 28, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Personally my favs are
> 
> Bleach
> Rosario Vampire
> ...



Don't!!


----------



## Razzzz (Jun 28, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Wait, you're saying it's stupid of me to explain that I find a childish manga to be childish in a thread *whose purpose is explicitly to state manga you don't like, and preferably explain why?*
> 
> Toriko is *not* aimed towards children, it's a shonen made for teenaged boys.
> 
> You're an idiot. Stop being an idiot.



No, it's stupid of you to say it's childish as a demerit when the author never sets out to do what you criticize him for (making it more adult-oriented) in the first place. If you can't grasp a concept of criticism as simple as that, then I have to wonder if your thought processes always get tangled up when you perform mental gymnastics (which wouldn't be surprising considering you just stated that teenagers are by default no longer children).



Badalight said:


> Yes. Toriko getting 3 limbs blown off and impaled 7 times in a single chapter makes Toriko a kiddy manga.



I'm pretty sure teenagers even as young as twelve can handle graphic content. Besides, the context in which I use the word childish isn't meant to be derogative like it normally is.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm just going to automatically forgive everyone that didn't have Shin Angyo Onshi in their list. I'll just assume it's because of some internal manga/manhwa differential debate.


----------



## Han Solo (Jun 28, 2013)

krory said:


> I'm just going to automatically forgive everyone that didn't have Shin Angyo Onshi in their list. I'll just assume it's because of some internal manga/manhwa differential debate.



I always consider manhwa/manhua on debates likes these about manga. Still not in my top 5 though.


----------



## Toriko (Jun 28, 2013)

> Shin Angyo Onshi



I've heard good things about this.


----------



## Mѳẹbius (Jun 28, 2013)

Toriko,childish?Surely,the anime adaptation is.But I'm sure you're gonna change your mind when you see that:



Clearly, the author had been exploring the connection between food and sexuality and there's nothing childish about that.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Jun 28, 2013)

Worst:

Fairy Tail


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 28, 2013)

Well I can see how people say One Piece has horrible art at the begining because of the cartoonish feel, but into about 200's the art because several times better. 

However I wouldn't expect any of them to know that because they probably never picked it up because of the art.  Which is alright we all have our reasons for reading.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 28, 2013)

^That is part of the joke/quote, but I give you free rep for having somehow managed to make it even funnier. 

To the dude with the Toriko picture:
I said my problem is that I find the way things are _handled_ to be childish, not the overall story. First off, if you had provided no context for that image, I would've thought it was a failed joke that tried to be funny because "nudity is funny," I see no "lesson about the connections between food and sex" in it, and the thought that that might be the case didn't even occur to me until you mentioned it. 
Sure, I can get the idea, and there's probably a context that clarifies that intent more, but that image is still to me a very childish way of portraying that lesson. It could easily be done in a far less silly way than that. I can't possibly take that image seriously.

Again, no offense to the people who like it. I don't get Toriko, you do, and that's fine.


----------



## Krory (Jun 28, 2013)

Han Solo said:


> I always consider manhwa/manhua on debates likes these about manga. Still not in my top 5 though.



Guess there's just no accounting for your poor taste, then. I'm sorry bro.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 28, 2013)

Shin Angyo Onshi is on my list, but I'm reading to many other good manga. 

Which reminds me we need more 20th Century Boys on this list.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 28, 2013)

if you would have asked me in like 2007/2008 i would have said sao was the greatest thing in the world

i've not looked at it since it finished because i know it's not as good as i remember and i don't want to lose that good memory



Han Solo said:


> I always consider manhwa/manhua on debates likes these about manga.



which is totally fair.  the general aesthetic, publishing methods (big ones like sao ran in japanese mags anyway), etc are similar.  it's like how no one differentiates american and british comics.  they're just "western".


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 28, 2013)

All mangas in WSJ are childish.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 28, 2013)

no way jose these comix are for big kids >__<


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 28, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> All mangas in WSJ are childish.




*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








Oh, do go on, argue your point. _I beg you._


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 28, 2013)

They still have childish points. Even though some scenes are meant for an older crowd.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 28, 2013)

Toriko said:


> I've heard good things about this.



Beginning's a bit rough but that happens in almost everything
Great read though and not too long, I recommend it


----------



## Snowless (Jun 28, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> All mangas in WSJ are childish.



Yes, of course all of them have childish moments.
One Piece Examples:
But, then there are the scenes that are maybe a little less so (just some random panels, on top of the darker themes it sometimes tackles, like the slave trade, racism, the tragedy of war, Big Mom being shown to be a cannibal, or the emotional distress they felt in Water 7/Enies Lobby or Sabaody Archipelago)

This one's actually a spoiler, so don't click if you haven't at least gotten to the end of pre timeskip.


This one should be fine.



Of course they can be childish at times. But, they have their darker moments, and those should be recognized. They're not all completely childish all of the time. 
Like, Whitebeard got half of his face melted off and was completely covered in blood. Not quite as childish of a moment as when Luffy is goofing off, pretending to be Sanji.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 28, 2013)

You guys act like western children cartoons don't occasionally have dark or serious themes as well.
I mean take Batman: The Animated Series, Beast Wars, Gargoyles, Young Justice, and plenty of other animated cartoons aimed at kids that deal with some fucked up shit on occasion. Sure, they might not have excessive blood, but at the same time a shonen can not get away with same amount of excessive blood that a seinen can get away with because of demographics. As I have said before, the Japanese have a different culture than us, and a lot of these things that you seem to find super edgy and un-childish still run in magazines that are USUALLY marketed towards children. Hell, Hunter x Hunter for example which is an incredibly violent series by American standards that has plenty of characters dying, blood everywhere, characters losing limbs, and fucked up themes yet airs at 9:00AM in the morning alongside other "Sunday Morning Cartoons". I don't see why some of you guys can't grasp this. 
There is nothing wrong with admitting that the things you enjoy might be aimed at children in a different country.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 28, 2013)

^ I'm agreeing with this.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> You guys act like western children cartoons don't occasionally have dark or serious themes as well.
> I mean take Batman: The Animated Series, Beast Wars, Gargoyles, Young Justice, and plenty of other animated cartoons aimed at kids that deal with some fucked up shit on occasion. Sure, they might not have excessive blood, but at the same time a shonen can not get away with same amount of excessive blood that a seinen can get away with because of demographics. As I have said before, the Japanese have a different culture than us, and a lot of these things that you seem to find super edgy and un-childish still run in magazines that are USUALLY marketed towards children. Hell, Hunter x Hunter for example which is an incredibly violent series by American standards that has plenty of characters dying, blood everywhere, characters losing limbs, and fucked up themes yet airs at 9:00AM in the morning alongside other "Sunday Morning Cartoons". I don't see why some of you guys can't grasp this.
> There is nothing wrong with admitting that the things you enjoy might be aimed at children in a different country.




Except most often in those shows those dark or serious themes dont have blatant violence that includes, but is not limited to Hands going through chests, people being dismembered, Large quantities of blood being spilled, and Offensive Language. 


Also in the shows you listed female characters dont look like this. 



Or This. 



Dont compare apples to oranges.


----------



## Badalight (Jun 29, 2013)

Eminem said:


> Shin Angyo Onshi is on my list, but I'm reading to many other good manga.
> 
> Which reminds me we need more 20th Century Boys on this list.



It's my #4. But I swear I'm the only one on this earth that likes it better than Monster.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a melting face

so deep

so mature

i mean

that's what maturity is right? a child can't absorb at all that right?

i mean

sooooooo intense!


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't know Badlight. I don't think I'll like another manga more than 20th Boys right now. I'm on volume 12, and it's the shit.  it's so well written. Vagabond, FMA, and One Piece are the last mangas that I enjoyed this much.

Easily the best written manga for me.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> a melting face
> 
> so deep
> 
> ...



The point of the conversation isnt whether or not they _can_ its whether or not they _should_. 

The majority of the shows that stem from Shounen Jump are recommended for Teens by Viz in the US for a reason. 

Children under the age of 12-13 shouldnt be exposed to that kind of stuff.

Its up to the parents and there is such thing as bad parenting.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Snowless said:


> Yes, of course all of them have childish moments.
> One Piece Examples:
> But, then there are the scenes that are maybe a little less so (just some random panels, on top of the darker themes it sometimes tackles, like the slave trade, racism, the tragedy of war, Big Mom being shown to be a cannibal, or the emotional distress they felt in Water 7/Enies Lobby or Sabaody Archipelago)
> 
> ...



where the fuck is the maturity in those scenes

really

i have read all OP and the least childish point is the burning and killing of Ohara historians.

that was the most mature point in all of the story and yet, that wasn't out of a child's grasp.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> where the fuck is the maturity in those scenes
> 
> really
> 
> ...



Once again, it has nothing to do with whether or not they can grasp it. 

Its about whether or not they should exposed to it.

Kids under the age of 12-13 shouldnt be reading stories about scantily clad women and there love interests or how this guy can plunge a sword through this other guys face. 

Thats not a kid story. Thats not a kid show.


----------



## Krory (Jun 29, 2013)

Oh, I see we're back to this again.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

One Piece isn't the best example. 

Oda loves the fact the children love One Piece, so he makes it less mature as possible, while still retaining some things that would attract older audiences.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> The point of the conversation isnt whether or not they _can_ its whether or not they _should_.
> 
> The majority of the shows that stem from Shounen Jump are recommended for Teens by Viz in the US for a reason.
> 
> ...


jesus christ

ok, least SUPPOSE that america's censorship is universal and that it is actually important at all

something isn't targeted to an adult's audience simply because of graphic content. 

sure that has some importance, but the story, which conveys the most important part in whether something should be read by children or not, ISN'T AT ALL OUT OF GRASP OF A CHILD'S MIND

seriously

all stories in WSJ are targeted to kids from 8 to 16.

that's their GODDAMN BUSINESS

so yes, it IS childish.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

Eminem said:


> One Piece isn't the best example.
> 
> Oda loves the fact the children love One Piece, so he makes it less mature as possible, while still retaining some things that would attract older audiences.



One piece is probably one of the only Shounen Jump stories i would recommend to my younger cousins. It is easily one of the cleanest stories that it has to offer as far as story is concerned.

EDIT: 



The Doctor said:


> jesus christ
> 
> ok, least SUPPOSE that america's censorship is universal and that it is actually important at all
> 
> ...



Just so i am understanding. 

You are saying that a man shoving a sword through another mans face and ending that persons life is child appropriate? 

Also half naked women are child appropriate as well?


----------



## The World (Jun 29, 2013)

that Rukia panel would never be shown on American TV

dat western culture is too repressed and censored


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

The World's lurking. 

JJBA's in his top 5.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

I think what should be censored and what not is all opinionated. No one right or wrong answer.


----------



## Krory (Jun 29, 2013)

The World said:


> that Rukia panel would never be shown on American TV
> 
> dat western culture is too repressed and censored



But... but it's rated for 8-16 year-olds! That makes it okay!


----------



## Badalight (Jun 29, 2013)

Eminem said:


> I don't know Badlight. I don't think I'll like another manga more than 20th Boys right now. I'm on volume 12, and it's the shit.  it's so well written. Vagabond, FMA, and One Piece are the last mangas that I enjoyed this much.
> 
> Easily the best written manga for me.



That's cool. I love the shit out of it too. It's just that, most people tend to think Monster > 20th CB. On a poll on this site it was like 95% to 5%. I prefer 20cb any day though.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

Ill just state my overall point to make my intent plain. 

Is Shounen Jump a great magazine for children? Yes. Of course it is. The stories, the colorful pages, and the message that some of those stories bring while giving them somethinng better than mindless cartoons is great. 

Should parents be more careful about _which_ stories they watch? God yes. There are language and Images in some stories that are clearly not meant for smaller children. (Bleach for one) 


Im not saying Shounen Jump isnt a kids magazine. Im saying that some of the content is not intended for younger audiences.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Just so i am understanding.
> 
> You are saying that a man shoving a sword through another mans face and ending that persons life is child appropriate?
> 
> Also half naked women are child appropriate as well?


are you seriously asking that?

stuff like that happened all the times in animes like Inuyasha and it aired just fine.

unless you're trying to argue that Inuyasha is the pinacle of maturity, i suggest you to concede


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

Yeah Badlight, I'm going to read monster, but honestly I'm going to be biased because 20th boys was my first.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> are you seriously asking that?
> 
> stuff like that happened all the times in animes like Inuyasha and it aired just fine.
> 
> unless you're trying to argue that Inuyasha is the pinacle of maturity, i suggest you to concede



Yes i am seriously asking that and i want a yes or no answer. 

Is a man shoving a sword through another mans face and ending his life appropriate for tha age group of 6-11 year old children? Yes or No

Are half naked women with large breasts being shown in scantily clothing appropriate for children between the ages of 6-11? Yes or No. 

Im arguing that some mature content is meant for older audiences. Older as in 12+

Im sorry if that is flying over your head


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

you guys are assuming that an 8 yo kid is retarded.

that has to be it


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Yes i am seriously asking that and i want a yes or no answer.
> 
> Is a man shoving a sword through another mans face and ending his life appropriate for tha age group of *8*-11 year old children? Yes or No
> 
> ...


ok so you're deciding for yourself

it's not because you don't want it to be

that's cute

and yes it is appropriate. now, please argue with your pedagogy degree why it isn't.

i'll gladly read whatever nonsense you want to write


----------



## Krory (Jun 29, 2013)

This has to be Nensense's dupe or something.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> ok so you're deciding for yourself
> 
> it's not because you don't want it to be
> 
> ...



> Death, gore and sexually suggestive content is okay for small children


There is no arguing with someone as intelligent as you


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> > *Death and gore and sexually suggestive content* is okay for small children
> 
> 
> There is no arguing with someone as intelligent as you


yes, i'm sorry, it's my mistake really

i forgot that america's sense of censorship is universal and that it's accepted by everyone in the world and that your knowledge over whether something is morally accepted or not is the philosophical fucking truth

i was wrong, i'm sorry


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 29, 2013)

Top 5 best:

1. Shingeki no Kyojin
2. Full Metal Alchemist
3. Berserk (when that fucker updates)
4. One Piece
5. Bakuman

Top 5 worst:
(Haven't read much of these because they were terrible and thus dropped)
1. Hunter x Hunter (terrible art, lazy as fuck panels)
2. Bobobo-bo (dumb)
3. Any Yugioh beyond the original (shitty merchandising)
4. Any moe shit
5. Any shojo shit



The Doctor said:


> you guys are assuming that an 8 yo kid is retarded.
> 
> that has to be it


I was watching Pokemon and Sailor Moon (I liked the part when they got naked while transforming) when I was 8. Good times.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> yes, i'm sorry, it's my mistake really
> 
> i forgot that america's sense of censorship is universal and that it's accepted by everyone in the world and that your knowledge over whether something is morally accepted or not is the philosophical fucking truth
> 
> i was wrong, i'm sorry



The funny thing is that you ridiculed me by saying 



> it's not because you don't want it to be



When you are doing the same exact thing. 

You are saying it is because you want it to be. 

So my previous statement still stands 

And apology accepted


----------



## Krory (Jun 29, 2013)

FUN FACT: The U.K. has Naruto rated as a 12, meaning not appropriate for anyone under the age of 12. So no, not just America.

I guess they don't teach how to overcome national ignorance in Brazil either, huh?


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> ok so you're deciding for yourself
> 
> it's not because you don't want it to be
> 
> ...



God damn, how does a person sink as low as you?

Nothing you have ever said supports any of your claims, you're basically just yelling "I'm right and you guys are stupid because I'm right."

Just _trying_ to argue that WSJ is childish is idiotic and ignorant to begin with. "Childish" is used to mean "immature" or "needlessly dumbed down for the sake of the simpler minded," *not* "anything children can comprehend." 
If you seriously believe that a child around 8 years old could fully comprehend the very real philosophical ideologies and existential questioning in Bleach then you, good sir, are mentally retarded. 
_Even actual adults don't do that most of the time._
Bleach in itself can arguably be considered to be treading on seinen territory, _thus automatically breaking your ludicrous claim that WSJ is immature by default._

Same goes for Naruto. While it's morals are obvious enough, the emotional growths and the questioning of reality and life are not things a child can fully grasp and ponder over.

Now please go find something to shove up your behind to replace all of the crap you've been pulling out of it.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Top 5 best:
> 
> 1. Shingeki no Kyojin
> 2. Full Metal Alchemist
> ...



Good pro list. 

One Piece, Berserk, and FMA are in my top 5 I would say. Haven't read Bakuman, but I want to. I like AoT too, but I'm going to wait until it has more chapters to put it into my top 10.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 29, 2013)

Well SnK, that's the first manga in years which has had me enthralled when catching up. I started at maybe 10pm wanting to see how the arc that just started in the anime ended. Then I wanted to see how the arc after that went. And so on. It wasn't until about 5am that I reached a point I could stop for the night.

Bakuman was extremely interesting in terms of providing a behind the scenes to how the manga industry worked. So I found that immensely fascinating.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> I was watching Pokemon and Sailor Moon (I liked the part when they got naked while transforming) when I was 8. Good times.


you also watched dragonball, maybe you watched yu yu hakusho and inuyasha, depending on your age

if you were latin american, you'd have watched saint seiya


Fiona said:


> The funny thing is that you ridiculed me by saying
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol

my opinion is based on the author's intent and the magazine's target audience

what's your opinion based on, btw?


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> God damn, how does a person sink as low as you?
> 
> Nothing you have ever said supports any of your claims, you're basically just yelling "I'm right and you guys are stupid because I'm right."
> 
> ...


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> If you seriously believe that a child around 8 years old could fully comprehend the very real philosophical ideologies and existential questioning in Bleach then you, good sir, are mentally retarded.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh God

Oh jesus

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Edit - thank you sir

you made my night


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Oh God
> 
> ...



So thats a yes  

Case closed. 

Going back to the Blender.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Well SnK, that's the first manga in years which has had me enthralled when catching up. I started at maybe 10pm wanting to see how the arc that just started in the anime ended. Then I wanted to see how the arc after that went. And so on. It wasn't until about 5am that I reached a point I could stop for the night.
> 
> Bakuman was extremely interesting in terms of providing a behind the scenes to how the manga industry worked. So I found that immensely fascinating.



Yeah I got into SnK because the hype, and when I read into it. I had to drop all the other manga because I had to know what happened. I really think this manga has a fascinating structure, and I like how he sets up everything, and how anything can happen.

Bakuman I know I'll like, but I have too many other manga I put off. Apparently Eji (I don't know his name) The genious mangaka is based on Oda, so I'm mildly interested. I too want to see what the manga process is like.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> So thats a yes
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> Going back to the Blender.


cya hinata fan =)


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Oh God
> 
> ...



Since you even seem to be denying the *fact* that Bleach contains a surprisingly large amount of very real philosophical ideologies and moraly questionable situations, I take it your comprehensive capabilities are below that of an 8 year old then.
As Fiona said, I assume you actually are retarded. In that case, I do apologize for having tried to treat you reasonably, as such behavior and thinking is obviously beyond you.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

Please, explain to me the philosophical points in Bleach

please, I beg you

show this retarded me how beautiful Bleach can be

Oh, and in Naruto too!


----------



## Varg (Jun 29, 2013)

Kubo interview  from Anime Insider



> What do you think is the main theme of Bleach?
> In my work, I don?t like to impose a message or theme onto the reader. I want the characters to develop on their own and create the story themselves, and it usually turns out very clever. So I tend to do that sort of thing.




Yeah..


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> Please, explain to me the philosophical points in Bleach
> 
> please, I beg you
> 
> ...



...Sigh. I hate children.

I'll give you the most basic ones then, just so you'll at least get a slight chance of understanding them.

How about the fact that it flat-out questions the definition of a deity? (That basically means "A god," It's a tough word I know, but you can practice it for a while and it'll stick.) That alone is a philosophical question that even the greatest adult minds and philosophers still ponder over.

How about Nnoitra's entire debate about what pity means, the questioning of "empathy" and how important such notions are? And Ulquiorra's definition of "happiness?" What is joy? Is it having nothing and feeling nothing like he believed? Is Nihilism a form of joy or a form of escapism?
_"There is no meaning in our world, 
neither is there any meaning in us, the ones who live in it.  
It is then meaningless 
for us, who are equally meaningless, to conceive the world in our thoughts 
despite knowing there is no meaning to be found." _
~Ulquiorra Cifer.

Even more basic than that, how about the fact that every single "monster" is really just a normal human overcome with grief and worldly attachments? That there is no true "evil" and that all "evil people" are really just people sufficiently different from oneself? And that's never spelt out to the readers either, we are only shown the characters and the conclusion is left for us to draw.
(Though I don't think you've done that.)

How about all the different fighting ideologies we've been shown? Basically every single character has their own, and all of them are very real and very different ways of viewing combat. The Fourth Division's philosophy that "War is Hell that needs to be avoided" clashes heavily with the Eleventh Division's view that battle is something to yearn for and something you should seek out and gladly die in. These are ways of thinking that children don't use because they have not yet formulated their own ideologies and cannot analyze them because they lack the experience to do so.
And Kyoraku's quote? "Once war breaks out, both sides are evil." That's not something children truly grasp because they don't have a full grasp on what "war" really means.

How about Mayuri's* truly beautiful and masterfully phrased * speech on perfection, as well as the scientific view on it? That Perfection is something to loath as a scientist, and that it is nothing but a delusion? Concepts that children don't even think twice about.

I'm not even going to *get started* on Aizen's ludicrous amounts of poetic philosophy. His quotes alone can (and has) fill(ed) up entire essays, and has in fact even been used for courses in philosophy at least here in Sweden.
In fact, never mind, here's one anyway: (Though I suspect it's full implications will go over your head.)
_"All people, imitations of apes.
All Gods, imitations of people."_
~Aizen Sousuke.


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

damn that's deep

how come i've never thought about it before?

now please, explain to me the moral discussion in naruto


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Except most often in those shows those dark or serious themes dont have blatant violence that includes, but is not limited to Hands going through chests, people being dismembered, Large quantities of blood being spilled, and Offensive Language.
> 
> 
> Also in the shows you listed female characters dont look like this.
> ...



You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of different cultures having different standards of what is acceptable.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Hunter x Hunter (terrible art, lazy as fuck panels)



I feel like the majority of people who post HxH in this thread are just doing it to bait me or just haven't read it but have heard from other people about the OCCASIONAL artwork issue that gets redrawn for the tankobans. This post in particular seeing how he is bring up the panelwork which is agreed by most people to be excellent.

Also, how is this considered bad art?

*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I feel like the majority of people who post HxH in this thread are just doing it to bait me. This post in particular seeing how he is bring up the panelwork which is agreed by most people to be excellent.
> 
> Also, how is this considered bad art?




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jun 29, 2013)

1 One Piece
2 20th Century Boys
3 Berserk
4 Hunter x Hunter
5 Slam Dunk 
6 Battle Angel Alita
7 Monster
8 Gantz
9 Vagabond
10 Vinland Saga

Worst

Bleach
Toriko
Kuroko and his basketball
Veritas (and there are more korean shitty manga out there...such as the breaker....)
Bakuman


Special category...
FMA (not horrible but overhyped shit)


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Blunt said:


> Best: Tower of God, Kubera, Sengoku Youko, Trace, FMA
> 
> Worst: JJBA Part 1, Fairy Tail, D. Gray-man, KHR, Air Gear
> 
> Honorable mention for best is It's Not My Fault I'm Not Popular.



I like your taste, but any reason why Sengoku Youko is on your top 5 rather than Biscuit Hammer or Spirit Circle? Because as much as I adore Sengoku Youko, I and most others tend to put Biscuit Hammer and Spirit Circle ahead top of it. Just curious if there was any particular reason.


----------



## p-lou (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> Please, explain to me the philosophical points in Bleach
> 
> please, I beg you
> 
> ...



the heart

<3


----------



## Dellinger (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I feel like the majority of people who post HxH in this thread are just doing it to bait me or just haven't read it but have heard from other people about the OCCASIONAL artwork issue that gets redrawn for the tankobans. This post in particular seeing how he is bring up the panelwork which is agreed by most people to be excellent.
> 
> Also, how is this considered bad art?
> 
> ...



Honestly I didn't really like his art style at first.

But his art during some moments in the CA arc and during the election arc was really good and something that I really liked.


Also inbefore we have people start claiming that Bleah should be a seinen.


----------



## Snowless (Jun 29, 2013)

I've been reading more manga recently, so updated list:

One Piece
Toriko
Shokugeki no Souma
FMA
Rurouni Kenshin

Worst: 

Naruto
Bleach 
World Trigger


----------



## BlueDemon (Jun 29, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> 1 One Piece
> 2 20th Century Boys
> 3 Berserk
> 4 Hunter x Hunter
> ...




Hahahahahahaha


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Honestly I didn't really like his art style at first.
> 
> But his art during some moments in the CA arc and during the election arc was really good and something that I really liked.
> 
> ...



No one's claimed it should be classified as a seinen, only that it definitely has elements closer to seinen than shonen as of the current arc. For example, Rukia's face melting is definitely something you *did not* expect to see in such graphic detail in a shonen, and it does skim on the border to seinen manga. In fact, this example in particular is very reminiscent of Berserk, the arguably most notorious seinen out there.

The only major difference between some seinen and shonen is how graphical and explicit they can get, and Bleach has already crossed that line. I'd say it's most definitely semi-seinen since the new arc.

...And those examples from that manga (too lazy to check the name) look pretty bad to me. Not the worst I've seen mind you, just a very generic older art-style of manga that I'm glad to see very rarely nowadays.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 29, 2013)

Whole generation of children grew up watching DBZ and YYH, so why people acting as if the HST was too dark and violent for the children, when they have watched things far worse.
I mean even in the Lion King Mufasa got trampled to death in front of his son.


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...And those examples from that manga (too lazy to check the name) look pretty bad to me. Not the worst I've seen mind you, just a very generic older art-style of manga that I'm glad to see very rarely nowadays.


quick question, do u prefer bleach's art style then?


----------



## Magician (Jun 29, 2013)

I still believe this thread was created to start a shitstorm.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

probably 

It's excellent now though


> And Ulquiorra's definition of "happiness?" What is joy? Is it having nothing and feeling nothing like he believed? Is Nihilism a form of joy or a form of escapism?
> "There is no meaning in our world,
> neither is there any meaning in us, the ones who live in it.
> It is then meaningless
> ...


it just took him 46 words to say "Nothing matters" without even giving reasons


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2013)

it would be a plus if he slit wrists as hard as the people who usually write that shitty blog tier tripe


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2013)

Also, I don't know about any "graphic detail" but if kubo could put any "details" on his "graphics" thaat would be nice



THE HEART


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> closer to seinen than shonen



...Are you trying to imply that shonen and seinen are genres? Shonen and seinen are demographics, not genres.

For example, Aku no Hana, a pretty fucked up series that deals with a lot of shit (even rape) is a shonen (Also, I don't see any problem with posting this page as there is no nudity in it, but if a mod isn't okay with it then just remove it)



Yet K-On which is just a fun series about cute girls doing cute things with pretty much no "objectionable" material whatsoever is a seinen.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

Best
1 - Berserk
2 - JoJo
3 - FMA
4 - Vinland Saga
5 - Magi

Meh tier

- HST

Worst

- Don't want to remember because it may cause a stroke


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

i wanted madmanrobz to give me a naruto explanation

but he doesn't want to

i'm sad


----------



## The Doctor (Jun 29, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> probably
> 
> It's excellent now though
> 
> it just took him 46 words to say "Nothing matters" without even giving reasons



i liked the way he quoted though, given the complete name of the character

~Ulquiorra Cifer

that's just gold


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Wolfgang Grimmer said:


> quick question, do u prefer bleach's art style then?



Actually yes I do, but that's most likely because it just so happens to be exactly my taste in every way. I'm a fan of minimalistic and simplistic art-styles, so it fits my ideals to a T. 
I find, for example, One Piece and Fairy Tail to be very messy in backgrounds because there's just too much going on and too many unnecessary details. Sure, it takes genuine talent and massive amounts of skill to draw that, but it's always full of so much pointless stuff and most of the time, it's difficult to discern what's what.

I happen to be in love with Hueco Mundo and the Menos Forest at the moment. They're so simple, yet so meaningful. An eternal dark dessert where Darwin rules, with nothing but nightmare-fuel, pale monsters in any direction. A melancholic and depressing eternal hunting ground for the people who couldn't let go of their attachments to life, a perfect setting that truly reflects it's inhabitants. :amazed
And the Menos Forest! Pure brilliance. Massive dead underground trees that make up the foundation of the previously mentioned desserts, filled with all of limbo's younger inhabitants, a beautifully illustrated metaphor for said inhabitants being on the bottom of the food chain with the greatest hunters taking residence above ground. The Menos Grande themselves fit perfectly (esthetically) into that atmosphere and setting.  

Massive open spaces and empty halls are far more impactful to me than a castle wall with a bazillion individual stones in it.

I don't mind Kubo not drawing backgrounds when said backgrounds don't contain anything worthy of noting. I find it gives far more focus and impact on the characters and dialogue than the setting, and he _does_ pull through when he needs to.

^Sorry about that. Very rarely do I get an opportunity to fanboy over my adoration for Kubo's art style. I tend to take the chance when it comes. 

All this being said, I don't have a problem with people for preferring other styles. I personally just don't like those older art-styles that manga used a lot in the past. Say what you want about Bleach's art-style, at least it's unique.

Besides the fact that it's ripping off Nick Simmon's "Incarnate" comic derp. 


OtherGalaxy said:


> probably
> 
> It's excellent now though
> 
> it just took him 46 words to say "Nothing matters" without even giving reasons



It's intentionally a poem lol, that's not really a valid complaint. It _does_ characterize him a lot, since it does show his own reasoning and how he questions reality in his mind.



The Doctor said:


> i wanted madmanrobz to give me a naruto explanation
> 
> but he doesn't want to
> 
> i'm sad



That's intentional on my part. Naruto's level of maturity heavily fluctuates between childish and actually being philosophical enough to be worth thinking over. Since it's been on the childish end of that spectrum for a while, analyzing it enough to summarize why it's overall not a necessarily childish experience but still has childish periods that don't necessarily define the overall story simply takes too much time. At least at the moment, I don't really want to spend the next couple of hours formulating that argument just so you can reply with a "lol you're stupid poop-head" and be on your merry way.

Oh, and would you at least _try_ to stop double posting?


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> i liked the way he quoted though, given the complete name of the character
> 
> ~Ulquiorra Cifer
> 
> that's just gold



His posts remind me a lot of the AALewis stuff I see around the internet, seeing how this kid thinks he is some kind of philosophical genius when in reality he is the exact opposite.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

very deep indeed


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 29, 2013)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glAhZcjo37s[/youtube]
2deep4u



MadmanRobz said:


> Actually yes I do, but that's most likely  because it just so happens to be exactly my taste in every way. I'm a  fan of minimalistic and simplistic art-styles, so it fits my ideals to a  T.
> I find, for example, One Piece and Fairy Tail to be very messy in  backgrounds because there's just too much going on and too many  unnecessary details. Sure, it takes genuine talent and massive amounts  of skill to draw that, but it's always full of so much pointless stuff  and most of the time, it's difficult to discern what's what.
> 
> I happen to be in love with Hueco Mundo and the Menos Forest at the  moment. They're so simple, yet so meaningful. An eternal dark dessert  where Darwin rules, with nothing but nightmare-fuel, pale monsters in  any direction. A melancholic and depressing eternal hunting ground for  the people who couldn't let go of their attachments to life, a perfect  setting that truly reflects it's inhabitants. :amazed
> ...



so tl:dr u prefer staring at kubo's OMG BEHIND U faces and blotted vomit ad infinitum?


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> very deep indeed



Fuck "2001", and all those other pretentious and so-called "deep" OLD movies with horrible graphics! Bleach is the deepest thing ever and super complex with amazing art!


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> ...Are you trying to imply that shonen and seinen are genres? Shonen and seinen are demographics, not genres.
> 
> For example, Aku no Hana, a pretty fucked up series that deals with a lot of shit (even rape) is a shonen (Also, I don't see any problem with posting this page as there is no nudity in it, but if a mod isn't okay with it then just remove it)
> 
> ...



Are you going to reply to this post Robz?


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 29, 2013)

konoha: a fucking village
skypiea: a relic of an ancient civilization
hueco mundo: 





MadmanRobz said:


> An eternal dark dessert where Darwin rules, with nothing but  nightmare-fuel, pale monsters in any direction. A melancholic and  depressing eternal hunting ground for the people who couldn't let go of  their attachments to life, a perfect setting that truly reflects it's  inhabitants.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> i liked the way he quoted though, given the complete name of the character
> 
> ~Ulquiorra Cifer
> 
> that's just gold


It really ties it all together



MadmanRobz said:


> It's intentionally a poem lol, that's not really a valid complaint. *It does characterize him a lot*, since it does show his own reasoning and how he questions reality in his mind.



it does the exact opposite as there's no 'reason' present to begin with, just a statement with no basis (per that quote anyhow)


MadmanRobz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The more I read this the more I realize it doesn't even actually make any sense


----------



## Asune (Jun 29, 2013)

Will name only manga series that didn't begun as novel or games before.

*Best, not in order*

- Gintama
- Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
- Hunter X Hunter
- Yu Yu Hakusho

Can't think on more for now.

-Oh Full Metal Alchemist perhaps.  Though I'm sure I had something more ranked on my classification

*Worst*

-Bleach
-Fairy Tail
-Bleach
-Naruto
-Bleach
-Gantz (Couldn't advance after like 80 chapters aprox.)
-Bleach
-Inuyasha
-Did I mention Bleach?

*Notable metion for worst: *
Negima (Couldn't go further than chapter 10)
Bleach


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2013)

this thread is 2deep4me


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Are you going to reply to this post Robz?



Didn't see it earlier.

I know seinen and shonen are demographics, that's the point. Bleach has always been "shonen" in that it's been aimed at teenaged boys. My point was that, with what current arc of Bleach, it might as well be aimed as "seinen" due to it's graphical nature and *the most literal second holocaust ever.*

How is it that I seem to be the only guy here who genuinely don't mind other people preferring other mangas? I write what I find in Bleach because you people keep questioning what I'm talking about, but have you seen me question *your* preferences?
If someone gushes over your favorite manga you come celebrating with them, but if I say I like Bleach and the philosophy and designs in it, you just send a steady stream of demeaning and sarcastic remarks about how wrong it is.

Did you all forget the actual purpose of the thread? You know, *listing your favorite and least favorite mangas without having people pick on your for it?*

So I'm just a kid who thinks he's a great philosopher? I'm sorry, but you're being overly offensive. I've never once claimed to be a great philosopher or anything of the kind. Is there anything wrong with liking the philosophy that Bleach brings up? Am I suddenly a pretentious dickbag for being interested in it, and being annoyed when people deny it's presence? I'm not telling you how to live, I'm not trying to force you to say that Bleach is the deepest poetry mankind has ever seen.
All I'm trying to do is explain to those who asked me that there is real philosophy and existentialism in Bleach, not that it's the ebst thing you'll ever read and that you should suck it's dick.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Bleach, it might as well be aimed as "seinen" due to it's graphical nature and *the most literal second holocaust ever.*


> FMA
> Father and Hohenheim (albeit he's clueless about it) soulfuck'd the entire Xerxes population and turn them into Philosopher's Stones
> More than one million of people
FMA is seinen now


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jun 29, 2013)

The Doctor said:


> Please, explain to me the philosophical points in Bleach
> 
> please, I beg you
> 
> ...



Part 1 Naruto had them, but Kishi failed to develop them in Part 2 or rather dropped them for the Uchiha.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Didn't see it earlier.
> 
> I know seinen and shonen are demographics, that's the point. Bleach has always been "shonen" in that it's been aimed at teenaged boys. My point was that, with what current arc of Bleach, it might as well be aimed as "seinen" due to it's graphical nature and *the most literal second holocaust ever.*
> 
> ...


*

Shōnen (少年?), shonen, or shounen, is a Kanji word literally meaning few years and generally referring to a typical boy, from elementary school through grade school age. 

I don't even see the point in arguing with you though since quite a few of us having been trying to get through to you yet you refuse to see how wrong your statements are. Bleach and Naruto are not deep in way whatsoever, you want them as a guilty pleasure manga? Sure, go ahead. But they are not deep.

Also, do you know how many people have died in Hunter x Hunter? Hell the Ant arc can be considered a fucking Xenocide compared to Clorox's "Holocaust". Violence doesn't change a series demographics.*


----------



## Asune (Jun 29, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> > FMA
> > Father soulfucks the entire Xerxes population and turn them into tools
> > More than one million of people
> FMA is seinen now



Homunculus were thousand times more bizarre and deep than Espadas or any other character in Bleach


----------



## Razzzz (Jun 29, 2013)




----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> > FMA
> > Father soulfucks the entire Xerxes population and turn them into tools
> > More than one million of people
> FMA is seinen now



*As I have already stated, the differences between a seinen manga and a shonen manga are extremely blurry.*
The only notable and consistent difference is that seinen manga tend to be more graphical and deal with things that hit closer to home. Instead of, say, a million *fictional people you know nothing about* dying in a fictional world, you could have a single person in real-life Japan having to live through hell. The former is obviously far darker if it had happened in our world, but the latter is more impactful and therefor darker.

Point is, if you called FMA a seinen in front of someone who's watched all of it, if they know what "seinen" means they can't truly say it doesn't work.
And maybe you missed the part where I said that Bleach is *on the edge* of turning into a seinen manga? That's kind of relevant. I flat-out state that Bleach isn't actually a seinen, but it's so much like plenty of seinen manga that it could as well be published as one and still be accurate.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

Asune said:


> Homunculus were thousand times more bizarre and deep than Espadas or any other character in Bleach


Xiao-Mei is more deep than Espadas


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> *As I have already stated, the differences between a seinen manga and a shonen manga are extremely blurry.*
> The only notable and consistent difference is that seinen manga tend to be more graphical and deal with things that hit closer to home. Instead of, say, a million *fictional people you know nothing about* dying in a fictional world, you could have a single person in real-life Japan having to live through hell. The former is obviously far darker if it had happened in our world, but the latter is more impactful and therefor darker.
> 
> Point is, if you called FMA a seinen in front of someone who's watched all of it, if they know what "seinen" means they can't truly say it doesn't work.
> And maybe you missed the part where I said that Bleach is *on the edge* of turning into a seinen manga? That's kind of relevant. I flat-out state that Bleach isn't actually a seinen, but it's so much like plenty of seinen manga that it could as well be published as one and still be accurate.



Because K-On is just the darkest, most complex, and edgiest manga ever right?


----------



## Asune (Jun 29, 2013)

*And maybe you missed the part where I said that Bleach is on the edge of turning into a seinen manga?*
Bleach is on the edge of turning into a seinen manga?
on the edge of turning into a seinen 
the edge


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI2a4cK6I4k[/YOUTUBE]




Not even a damn close to it.


----------



## Razzzz (Jun 29, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Xiao-Mei is more deep than Espadas



I don't think so.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 29, 2013)

> Violence doesn't change a series demographics.


It does actually, but Bleach level of violence is anywhere near the level that warrans it to be called seinen, or even borderline seinen.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> *Bleach and Naruto are not deep in way whatsoever, you want them as a guilty pleasure manga? Sure, go ahead. But they are not deep.
> .*


*

...I am at a lack of words for how indescribably ignorant and rash you are being. Very rarely do people manage to drive me speechless, congratulation. You have managed to actually be so frustratingly ignorant that I truly cannot think of a single thing in the world that would get through to someone like you.

This thread is about listing your favorite and least favorite manga, and maybe mention why you think so. I expected to have my own personal preferences respected in the same way that I'm perfectly fine with you liking and disliking whatever manga you want, but evidentially I expected too much from you.

If you don't like Bleach fine, but don't go shouting that Bleach is childish with no depth when you are painfully ignorant of the matter, even after I've flat-out named several philosophical concepts introduced. Now please drop this issue since it's obvious you're just biased and has absolutly nothing to really say about anything other than the fact that you have no fupping clue what Bleach contains.*


----------



## ~Howling~ (Jun 29, 2013)

This thread is turning out to be 2 deep 4 me.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...I am at a lack of words for how indescribably ignorant and rash you are being. Very rarely do people manage to drive me speechless, congratulation. You have managed to actually be so frustratingly ignorant that I truly cannot think of a single thing in the world that would get through to someone like you.
> 
> This thread is about listing your favorite and least favorite manga, and maybe mention why you think so. I expected to have my own personal preferences respected in the same way that I'm perfectly fine with you liking and disliking whatever manga you want, but evidentially I expected too much from you.
> 
> If you don't like Bleach fine, but don't go shouting that Bleach is childish with no depth when you are painfully ignorant of the matter, even after I've flat-out named several philosophical concepts introduced.



Do you not understand what actual philosophical concepts are? I feel like you are just a teenager who thinks that anything that tries to sounds "smart" actually is. I read Bleach and Bleach is not complex or deep AT ALL. Kubo is just a grown man with the mind of an edgy teenager with an over-inflated ego. 

Also do you think that Sucker Punch is some good deep movie? 

Spoiler alert, it's actually a plottless, terribly written, terribly directed piece of shit.

Kind of like Bleah 

Also are you sure you aren't Aalewis?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

Better character than Espadasanything in Bleach actually


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Do you not understand what actual philosophical concepts are? I feel like you are just a teenager who thinks that anything that tries to sounds "smart" actually is. I read Bleach and Bleach is not complex or deep AT ALL. Kubo is just a grown man with the mind of an edgy teenager with an over-inflated ego.
> 
> Also do you think that Sucker Punch is some good deep movie?
> 
> ...



And this is the last time I comment in a thread with anything actually on topic since, evidently, presumptuous douchebags with an ego the size of Wales and an attitude fitting of any troll like you will just bash on me for it. _It's not like you're not perfect and know everything, surely._

In reality, you don't know jack shit about Kubo or Bleach, you just read the manga and make rash judgments on it and the author and then stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything else as a possibility. I see why you've disabled your reputation, since obviously it'd be down in the drains otherwise.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> And this is the last time I comment in a thread with anything actually on topic since, evidently, presumptuous douchebags with an ego the size of Wales and an attitude fitting of any troll like you will just bash on me for it. _It's not like you're not perfect and know everything, surely._



Are you aware of the irony of your post?


----------



## Razzzz (Jun 29, 2013)

I wonder what type of philosophical and sociological window dressing exploration this contains, because all I'm seeing is bad fight choreography.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Could you spoiler that image? It's really really long and makes it take forever to scroll down the page.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2013)

"I'm sorry I had a little deja vu"

best way to cap it out


----------



## Asune (Jun 29, 2013)

Bleach is all about the heart


----------



## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...Sigh. I hate children.
> I'll give you the most basic ones then, just so you'll at least get a slight chance of understanding them.
> How about the fact that it flat-out questions the definition of a deity? (That basically means "A god," It's a tough word I know, but you can practice it for a while and it'll stick.) That alone is a philosophical question that even the greatest adult minds and philosophers still ponder over.
> How about Nnoitra's entire debate about what pity means, the questioning of "empathy" and how important such notions are? And Ulquiorra's definition of "happiness?" What is joy? Is it having nothing and feeling nothing like he believed? Is Nihilism a form of joy or a form of escapism?
> ...



I think this is quite good trolling, because if you actually have half the interest in philosophy that you claim to, you'd have at least dipped your toe into entry-level thinking, and you wouldn't be even remotely impressed by Kubo's cursory and superficial examination of these questions. 

And that part about Aizen's quotes being used for philosophy courses in Sweden


----------



## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)




----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> In reality, *you don't know jack shit about Kubo or Bleach*, you *just read the manga* and make rash judgments on it and the author and then stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything else as a possibility. I see why you've disabled your reputation, since obviously it'd be down in the drains otherwise.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Are you aware of the irony of your post?



There is none. The reality of the situation here is that this is a thread for sharing your liked and disliked manga, which is what I originally did before you lot came around and started harping on me and shouting I'm stupid and wrong for finding Bleach philosophical.
_Because "philosophical" really means it can never be silly or action-packed, right?_

Though, I do have to thank you for providing me with a new addition to my signature. It gives me a good laugh every time I read it.


----------



## Razzzz (Jun 29, 2013)

So deep


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> I think this is quite good trolling, because if you actually have half the interest in philosophy that you claim to, you'd have at least dipped your toe into entry-level thinking, and you wouldn't be even remotely impressed by Kubo's cursory and superficial examination of these questions.
> 
> And that part about Aizen's quotes being used for philosophy courses in Sweden



Shit, didn't even notice the part with him talking about how they use Aizen's quotes for philosphy courses in Sweden. Yeah, this kid is clearly a troll. 
Part of me thinks it might be somebody here with a dupe trying to take a stab at me by using somewhat similar rhetoric of my own but in defense of Clorox and Narushit.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

I just noticed his signature


> *Admiration is the emotion that is furthest from understanding*. ~Aizen Sousuke.
> 
> *The victor must speak not of how the world is but of how it should be!* ~Aizen Sousuke


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> There is none. The reality of the situation here is that this is a thread for sharing your liked and disliked manga, which is what I originally did before you lot came around and started harping on me and shouting I'm stupid and wrong for finding Bleach philosophical.
> _Because "philosophical" really means it can never be silly or action-packed, right?_
> 
> Though, I do have to thank you for providing me with a new addition to my signature. It gives me a good laugh every time I read it.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZcUdIdAt0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

The pot and the kettle seem to have an odd relationship.


----------



## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Clorox and Narushit.




Clearly an intellectual of refined tastes is what we have right ladies and gentleman.


----------



## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZcUdIdAt0[/YOUTUBE]



I remember this, wow.


----------



## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Clearly an intellectual of refined tastes is what we have right ladies and gentleman.


Well...both Naruto and Bleach _are_ quite bad. Bleach is much worse, yes, but Naruto isn't that far behind, especially now that the flashbacks ended and we have to put up with the main cast again.


----------



## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

manidk said:


> I remember this, wow.



you know it's bad when the people behind the anime are taking shots at it


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Shit, didn't even notice the part with him talking about how they use Aizen's quotes for philosphy courses in Sweden. Yeah, this kid is clearly a troll.
> Part of me thinks it might be somebody here with a dupe trying to take a stab at me by using somewhat similar rhetoric of my own but in defense of Clorox and Narushit.



Truly I am the troll here when *you are the sole reason this conversation even exists to begin with.*

I have an opinion different from yours? Hurr Durr of course I'm a troll then.

Me: Bleach is philosophical at times, here's an example.
You: Fuck you that's stupid you're an angry teenaged troll.

That's basically this entire ordeal. I don't care about you enough to want to continue this, so let's say you're right and move on and _let people actually use this thread in the way it's made to be used without shouting profanities at people who don't share your opinion._


----------



## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> you know it's bad when the people behind the anime are taking shots at it



Exactly.

Bleach practically parodies itself.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Truly I am the troll here when *you are the sole reason this conversation even exists to begin with.*
> 
> I have an opinion different from yours? Hurr Durr of course I'm a troll then.
> 
> ...



Bro, last time I checked, you were the only person in the thread blatantly flaming and calling people names. 

Although you tried claiming that they bring up Aizen quotes in Swedish Philosophy Courses, why am I even bothering arguing with such an obvious troll?


----------



## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Bro, last time I checked, you were the only person in the thread blatantly flaming and calling people names.
> 
> Although you tried claiming that they bring up Aizen quotes in Swedish Philosophy Courses, why am I even bothering arguing with such an obvious troll?



Again, because I said something you have a hard time believing I am obviously a troll. 
I've taken courses in philosophy, and I happened to introduce some of the quotes from Bleach to the philosophy teachers  and they checked it out. They happened to find them good enough to use for courses, and we started discussing existentialism and Nnoitra's relation to Neliel as a part of analyzing empathy and different points of view, and Ulquiorra's quotes and character ended up being a perfect starting point for discussions over human worth and "purpose."

If you actually go back a read, you would probably notice that my only original posts were on topic what my favorite manga are, and a few times commenting on other's lists. Then you people started replying with "How is Bleach philosophical" and "that's stupid," to which I then further explain why I myself *hold a different opinion, and then clarify that I don't mind it if you don't agree.*

Then dicks like you started with the "hurr durr you're stupid there's no deep meaning and you're just a trolling immature teen who doesn't know anything" trash talk, and that is when I start calling you mentally retarded because your initial comments were uncalled for, especially so since I made an active effort to clarify that *I don't have a problem with other people not sharing my like for it.*

What started as a discussion over why I like Bleach so much is now nothing more than you flaming me for "trying to sound smart" *when you people are the absolute and sole reason this is even a discussion.*


----------



## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Again, because I said something you have a hard time believing I am obviously a troll.


I'm going to run with the premise that you aren't trolling for a minute.

Would you like to provide proof that Swedish philosophy courses teach Bleach?

If you're telling the truth, it must be on an official course reading list somewhere, or on a course summary, or something similar.


----------



## PPsycho (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Bro, last time I checked, you were the only person in the thread *blatantly flaming* and calling people names.
> 
> Although you tried claiming that they bring up Aizen quotes in Swedish Philosophy Courses, why am I even bothering arguing with such an obvious troll?


Reread your posts from the first page.

It always baffles me how people give a shit about what others read and the length they go to just to bash a single work of fiction and a person that enjoys it. And those same people react in exactly the same way as their hate targets whenever their favorite manga is bashed. A spiral of silliness.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

PPsycho said:


> Reread your posts from the first page.
> 
> It always baffles me how people give a shit about what others read and the length they go to just to bash a single work of fiction and a person that enjoys it. And those same people react in exactly the same way as their hate targets whenever their favorite manga is bashed. A spiral of silliness.



Last I checked I never straight up called somebody names.
I might be rude, but I don't resort to name-calling because that is a one-way ticket to getting banned.


----------



## Powerful Lord (Jun 29, 2013)

Wolfgang Grimmer said:


> konoha: a fucking village
> skypiea: a relic of an ancient civilization
> hueco mundo:



If you want backgrounds with detail go read American comics lol


----------



## Magician (Jun 29, 2013)

PPsycho said:


> Reread your posts from the first page.
> 
> It always baffles me how people give a shit about what others read and the length they go to just to bash a single work of fiction and a person that enjoys it. And those same people react in exactly the same way as their hate targets whenever their favorite manga is bashed. A spiral of silliness.



Repped.


----------



## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Would you like to provide proof that Swedish philosophy courses teach Bleach?
> 
> If you're telling the truth, it must be on an official course reading list somewhere, or on a course summary, or something similar.



Well?

I'm not gonna lie, MadmanRobz, I'm curious as hell.


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## PPsycho (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Last I checked I never straight up called somebody names.
> I might be rude, but I don't resort to name-calling because that is a one-way ticket to getting banned.


That's why I only bolded the part about the flaming, you patrician you.

And while I do laugh a little at the thought of serious philosophical analysis of an action comic title made for entertainment and packed with lines the author comes on the fly, but someone can still find them to be clever, at least he tried to defend his point with actual discussion. After the usual hate mob arrived guess what, most people in the internet won't back off, but just add more fuel to the fire.


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

> at least he tried to defend his point with actual discussion



Did you read that post?

Volume doesn't equal valid reasoning.


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## PPsycho (Jun 29, 2013)

Any kind of explanation is more valid than posting the same pictures over and over again for the 1000 time.


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## Powerful Lord (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Did you read that post?
> 
> Volume doesn't equal valid reasoning.



He actually did, you could disagree with an inteligente discussion but you didn't, most here who act as if they were too good for certain series are actually the first ones to start flaming and insulting. Oh, and let's not Forget calling others troll for liking something, this forum actually likes that word a lot


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## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

Powerful Lord said:


> He actually did, you could disagree with an inteligente discussion but you didn't, most here who act as if they were too good for certain series are actually the first ones to start flaming and insulting. Oh, and let's not Forget calling others troll for liking something, this forum actually likes that word a lot



Meh, you can point out a series's flaws while still liking it.

Bleach is my favorite of the HST, and my first manga.  I still enjoy it.

Doesn't mean the speedblitz tropes and pseudo-philosophy of it isn't silly.


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

Powerful Lord said:


> He actually did, you could disagree with an inteligente discussion but you didn't, most here who act as if they were too good for certain series are actually the first ones to start flaming and insulting. Oh, and let's not Forget calling others troll for liking something, this forum actually likes that word a lot


He really didn't. 

Some of his points were, more or less, 'Bleach questions a concept. This makes it intellectually daring.'


*Spoiler*: __ 





> How about the fact that it flat-out questions the definition of a deity? (That basically means "A god," It's a tough word I know, but you can practice it for a while and it'll stick.) That alone is a philosophical question that even the greatest adult minds and philosophers still ponder over.





> How about Nnoitra's entire debate about what pity means, the questioning of "empathy" and how important such notions are? And Ulquiorra's definition of "happiness?" What is joy? Is it having nothing and feeling nothing like he believed? Is Nihilism a form of joy or a form of escapism?






One was essentially taking something which any remotely serious narrative with a protagonist and antagonists tries to do - give the antagonists motivations beyond just being 'evil' - and holding it up as some kind of laudable achievement.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Even more basic than that, how about the fact that every single "monster" is really just a normal human overcome with grief and worldly attachments? That there is no true "evil" and that all "evil people" are really just people sufficiently different from oneself? And that's never spelt out to the readers either, we are only shown the characters and the conclusion is left for us to draw






One was presenting simplistic ideologies ('avoid war at all costs', 'seek the glory of battle') and trying to imply that the contrast somehow made Bleach profound. Oh, and then it went on to try and say that the mere existence of ideologies is somehow creditable because children can't form them. Setting the bar rather low for something taught in philosophy courses, aren't we?


*Spoiler*: __ 





> How about all the different fighting ideologies we've been shown? Basically every single character has their own, and all of them are very real and very different ways of viewing combat. The Fourth Division's philosophy that "War is Hell that needs to be avoided" clashes heavily with the Eleventh Division's view that battle is something to yearn for and something you should seek out and gladly die in. These are ways of thinking that children don't use because they have not yet formulated their own ideologies and cannot analyze them because they lack the experience to do so.





> And Kyoraku's quote? "Once war breaks out, both sides are evil." That's not something children truly grasp because they don't have a full grasp on what "war" really means.






One just mentioned something he felt was 'truly beautiful' with no explication of its apparently enormous philosophical importance.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> How about Mayuri's truly beautiful and masterfully phrased speech on perfection, as well as the scientific view on it? That Perfection is something to loath as a scientist, and that it is nothing but a delusion? Concepts that children don't even think twice about.






And an as-yet unproven claim that Aizen's quotes are used in philosophy courses in Sweden. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> I'm not even going to get started on Aizen's ludicrous amounts of poetic philosophy. His quotes alone can (and has) fill(ed) up entire essays, and has in fact even been used for courses in philosophy at least here in Sweden.
> In fact, never mind, here's one anyway: (Though I suspect it's full implications will go over your head.)
> "All people, imitations of apes.
> All Gods, imitations of people."
> ~Aizen Sousuke.






So, yeah. Not very convincing.


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## ~Howling~ (Jun 29, 2013)

.


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## OtherGalaxy (Jun 29, 2013)

this thread is the greatest
good work nensense


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> I'm going to run with the premise that you aren't trolling for a minute.
> 
> Would you like to provide proof that Swedish philosophy courses teach Bleach?
> 
> If you're telling the truth, it must be on an official course reading list somewhere, or on a course summary, or something similar.



I thought I had originally been clear enough, my apologies for being misleading.
I've taken 2 philosophy courses in total from the same school with different teachers. (Not the _same_ course mind you.)
The official list of topics and assignments used for the courses around here are not that detailed. (Sweden. Small school.)
They contained the generic outlines of overall knowledge that we are meant to have learnt by the end of the course. Basically, they're just a list naming the different kinds of ethical thinking that the higher-ups in the educational system demands be a part of the course.

What I mean when I say that "Bleach is used for philosophical courses" is that certain quotes, characters and relationships were used as examples of or a basis for discussion regarding certain topics. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Nnoitra's relationship with Neliel was used as a base for our discussions over the definition of empathy and how to view others. 

Again, Ulquiorra and his quotes were used as a base for our discussions about religions, nihilism and human worth. Of course they don't hold the magical answers to age old questions, but they address questions that are very real and very worth thinking over, and were thus deemed useful for getting us students talking about them. I was the only student who actually _wanted_ to talk philosophy at all, so this was mostly a way to get the student who weren't interested more involved in the course.



Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> Last I checked I never straight up called somebody names.
> I might be rude, but I don't resort to name-calling because that is a one-way ticket to getting banned.



Calling someone names is hardly the deal breaker. If you went back and added offensive names and swear words to your previous replies to me, I wouldn't see them as any more or less offensive than before. My problem with you has been since the very beginning that you flatly disregard any notion of Bleach having anything deep in it without ever offering anything more than "You're just so stupid" and "that's not true, you're trolling" in a thread that is specifically made so that people can share their opinions about their favorite or least favorite manga without getting trashed for their preferences.

My intention was never to make you love Bleach or insult you.



PPsycho said:


> Any kind of explanation is more valid than posting the same pictures over and over again for the 1000 time.



I...I think I love you.  Here, take my money. Wait, that's impossible. Meh, have free rep instead.



Shivers said:


> He really didn't.
> 
> Some of his points were, more or less, 'Bleach questions a concept. This makes it intellectually daring.'
> 
> ...



I have never claimed that Bleach is the ultimate expression of philosophy, nor have I tried to argue that any of those questions were groundbreaking or light-years ahead of anything else and I am not arguing with you. I was not trying to convince you of anything.

Bleach contains several ethical and philosophical dilemmas and questions, and I like how it portrays them. That is all I meant, and I did not write those posts to convince other that Bleach is glorious. I simply took a chance to express what I enjoy about it (You know, the purpose of the thread?), _and I even apologized for taking that chance in the same post before the shitstorm hit me._


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 29, 2013)

@Shivers
oh god. These quotes are wonderful


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> I thought I had originally been clear enough, my apologies for being misleading.
> I've taken 2 philosophy courses in total from the same school with different teachers. (Not the _same_ course mind you.)
> The official list of topics and assignments used for the courses around here are not that detailed. (Sweden. Small school.)
> They contained the generic outlines of overall knowledge that we are meant to have learnt by the end of the course. Basically, they're just a list naming the different kinds of ethical thinking that the higher-ups in the educational system demands be a part of the course.



Thanks for the context. 

Incidentally, I assumed by the word 'course' that you were talking about a university (or college, I guess). We're talking about higher education, right? Not school as in secondary or primary school?


> What I mean when I say that "Bleach is used for philosophical courses" is that certain quotes, characters and relationships were used as examples of or a basis for discussion regarding certain topics. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Nnoitra's relationship with Neliel was used as a base for our discussions over the definition of empathy and how to view others.
> Again, Ulquiorra and his quotes were used as a base for our discussions about religions, nihilism and human worth. Of course they don't hold the magical answers to age old questions, but they address questions that are very real and very worth thinking over, and were thus deemed useful for getting us students talking about them. I was the only student who actually _wanted_ to talk philosophy at all, so this was mostly a way to get the student who weren't interested more involved in the course.



This seems somewhat unclear on whether the teacher used Bleach as a teaching aid, or whether students brought it up in discussions.

Which is it?


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Thanks for the context.
> 
> Incidentally, I assumed by the word 'course' that you were talking about a university (or college, I guess). We're talking about higher education, right? Not school as in secondary or primary school?
> 
> ...



I mentioned a few of the quotes to the teacher during a discussion after class once, and he got interested in where I'd heard them. I told him, he checked it out, and he then used previously mentioned material in our classes in a (somewhat successful) attempt to get others interested in the subject matter. Since several students happened to be reading Bleach, it got the discussions going.

And the classes were a stage of education I don't think exists outside of Sweden called "Gymnasium". Our basic school goes up to ninth grade(You'll be around 15-16 years old), and then we have 3-5 years or "gymnasium," which is basically the last stage of education (it's optional) before you start working unless you apply for a university.
(Possibly exists in Norway/Denmark/Finland but I don't know.)


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## The World (Jun 29, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZZcUdIdAt0[/YOUTUBE]



This sums up the entirety of Bleach with Gin remarking "how far are you going?"

How far indeed Kubo

His love for surprise anal rape is so transparent


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## PPsycho (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> He really didn't.


I really did though. My point concerning his posts was to complain about the lack of a civil discussion and actual response to the content he provided, no matter what it was. All he got in return was the usual finger pointing. What you did is actually a valid response, much better then posting "the heart", don't you think?

I'm not here to say I agree or disagree with your opinions, since I don't read Bleach, I don't really give a shit. But I like to see actual opinions is all.


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> I mentioned a few of the quotes to the teacher during a discussion after class once, and he got interested in where I'd heard them. I told him, he checked it out, and he then used previously mentioned material in our classes in a (somewhat successful) attempt to get others interested in the subject matter. Since several students happened to be reading Bleach, it got the discussions going.



Sounds like a hip dude. I wish more professors were like him and weren't too stuffy to relate undergraduate-level philosophy to japanese comic books for teens 

Hey, it _is_ undergraduate-level, right? 



MadmanRobz said:


> And the classes were a stage of education I don't think exists outside of Sweden called "Gymnasium". Our basic school goes up to ninth grade(You'll be around 15-16 years old), and then we have 3-5 years or "gymnasium," which is basically the last stage of education (it's optional) before you start working unless you apply for a university.
> (Possibly exists in Norway/Denmark/Finland but I don't know.)




Oh, it's sixth form. I see.



MadmanRobz said:


> I have never claimed that Bleach is the ultimate expression of philosophy, nor have U tried to argue that any of those questions were groundbreaking or light-years ahead of anything else and I am not arguing with you. I'm was not trying to convince you of anything.
> 
> Bleach contains several ethical and philosophical dilemmas and questions, and I like how it portrays them. That is all I meant, and I did not write those posts to convince other that Bleach is glorious. I simply took a chance to express what I enjoy about it (You know, the purpose of the thread?), _and I even apologized for taking that chance in the same post before the shitstorm hit me._


Hmm. Now that I look at it, I see that your claims never went beyond the territory of simply stating that Bleach _contained_ philosophical ideas, with no qualification as to the rather important question of whether it actually had anything interesting to say about them, or whether it actually represented them with any sort of complexity.

Yeah, we can both agree that Bleach asks some questions and talks about some philosophical things. 

Naruto, in fact, also contains issues related to the problems of government, racial intolerance, the relationship of the individual to the community and the greater good, and so on. It's nice how everything in that sentence is technically true because I studiously avoided qualifying how _well_ it explores those issues, huh?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 29, 2013)

what is this deep shit


the only reason to read any shonen are explosions 

GLORIOUS EXPLOSIONS  


you know I'm right, come join the


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

PPsycho said:


> I really did though. My point concerning his posts was to complain about the lack of a civil discussion and actual response to the content he provided, no matter what it was. All he got in return was the usual finger pointing. What you did is actually a valid response, much better then posting "the heart", don't you think?
> I'm not here to say I agree or disagree with your opinions, since I don't read Bleach, I don't really give a shit. But I like to see actual opinions is all.


I have no idea where you got the impression I was talking about you, since the context made it abundantly clear that I was still talking about MadmanRobz.


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## PPsycho (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> I have no idea where you got the impression I was talking about you, since the context made it abundantly clear that I was still talking about MadmanRobz.



Uh, you first quoted me asking if I did read his post, then Lord stated that I did, then again you provided your opinions stating again that I didn't really put much thought into it. That's what I got from this page, pardon if my focus is off.


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## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> what is this deep shit
> 
> 
> the only reason to read any shonen are explosions
> ...



^^

Truth.


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## Fujita (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> Even more basic than that, how about the fact that every single "monster" is really just a normal human overcome with grief and worldly attachments?



This is… hardly ever actually explored, and shunting it in as a world mechanic doesn't mean that the work has anything terribly interesting to say about it than the average vengeful ghost horror story. In fact, I think the only storyline that explores this in _any_ depth at all is the Don Kanonji one. With the guy that's attached to the hospital for petty reasons and then gets turned hollow by the idiot with the cane. Bit jarring, sure, but by far the more focus is put on Kanonji's cartoon-like character and his development. And this conflict is pretty much forgotten, I think. When the Quincy genocide comes up, nobody starts talking about how Quincies destroying Hollows is bad because they were once people… no, just because it might endanger the universe. Urahara (I think it was him, been a while) even says something about how it's entirely understandable what the Quincies did, after seeing their fellows killed by Hollows looking for a buffet of spiritually aware humans. Basically, while this is present, Bleach doesn't do anything terribly great with it imo. 



> How about all the different fighting ideologies we've been shown? Basically every single character has their own, and all of them are very real and very different ways of viewing combat. The Fourth Division's philosophy that "War is Hell that needs to be avoided" clashes heavily with the Eleventh Division's view that battle is something to yearn for and something you should seek out and gladly die in. These are ways of thinking that children don't use because they have not yet formulated their own ideologies and cannot analyze them because they lack the experience to do so.



Same as above, really. You have medics and fighters, and the most that comes of it? A comedic scene where the 11th tell Ichigo and Ganju to just to ahead and kill Hanataro. Just having something present doesn't say too much, honestly. I could say that because Bleach has swords, it brings up important questions about violence. Which is… grossly exaggerating the content present.


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## Fujita (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Hmm. Now that I look at it, I see that your claims never went beyond the territory of simply stating that Bleach _contained_ philosophical ideas, with no qualification as to the rather important question of whether it actually had anything interesting to say about them, or whether it actually represented them with any sort of complexity.
> 
> Yeah, we can both agree that Bleach asks some questions and talks about some philosophical things.
> 
> Naruto, in fact, also contains issues related to the problems of government, racial intolerance, the relationship of the individual to the community and the greater good, and so on. It's nice how everything in that sentence is technically true because I studiously avoided qualifying how _well_ it explores those issues, huh?



I'd say that the glowing and loving diction he used goes a bit beyond just saying that it _has_ philosophical content, and verging a bit more into saying that it's pretty decent philosophical content. 

Though maybe I'm not reading it entirely right. 

Oh, and MadmanRobz



^ This guy is Yoshihiro_Togashi

Raving troll


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

PPsycho said:


> Uh, you first quoted me asking if I did read his post, then Lord stated that I did, then again you provided your opinions stating again that I didn't really put much thought into it. That's what I got from this page, pardon if my focus is off.




I can see how that could be ambiguous, actually. My next post was all taking apart what Robz said, so I thought that'd clear it up, but all right.

Anyways, in response to what you said: deploring the lack of 'valid' responses to his post requires his post to have been saying something meaningful in the first place. As I think I pointed out, it really wasn't. At best, it was cruising on pointing out that Bleach _technically_ contained what could be regarded as philosophical concepts.



> Bleach contains several ethical and philosophical dilemmas and questions, and I like how it portrays them. That is all I meant



His own words.

'It contains them and that's that.' 

This isn't a claim to be argued, it's pointing out a bunch of semi-obvious things while _studiously_ avoiding making any claims about them. 

So there's really no point in deploring the fact that people aren't debating him - he hasn't provided anything to debate. He's just said 'Bleach contains some stuff'. Now obviously there's a lot of subtext that people would read into his post, like 'it is admirable that Bleach contains this stuff', 'Bleach is complex and nuanced because it contains this stuff', and so on.

But when pressed, he strenuously denies claiming anything like that:



> I have never claimed that Bleach is the ultimate expression of philosophy, nor have U tried to argue that any of those questions were groundbreaking or light-years ahead of anything else and I am not arguing with you. I'm was not trying to convince you of anything.



(making allowances for hyperbole which verges on the straw man fallacy)

So really, I don't think the standard of debate was especially lowered by posting images detailing Kubo's laziness and parodying his style, because they actually had a _point_ to make. While Robz didn't.



			
				Fujita said:
			
		

> I'd say that the glowingly loving terminology he used goes a bit beyond just saying that it has philosophical content, and verging a bit more into saying that it's pretty decent philosophical content.
> 
> Though maybe I'm not reading it entirely right.



Yeah, with all that 'truly beautiful' and 'masterfully written' and 'taught in philosophy courses' business, I think it pretty much says that outright.

But the author has denied any such implications, so what can you do?


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## Asune (Jun 29, 2013)




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## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2013)

Fujita said:


> I'd say that the glowing and loving diction he used goes a bit beyond just saying that it _has_ philosophical content, and verging a bit more into saying that it's pretty decent philosophical content.
> 
> Though maybe I'm not reading it entirely right.
> 
> ...



I quit the exaggerated behavior quite some time ago. All you have to do is look at my current posts and post from back then. Your post literally holds no merit.


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## MadmanRobz (Jun 29, 2013)

Shivers said:


> His own words.
> 
> 'It contains them and that's that.'
> 
> ...



I'm not "pointing out obvious things," I gave my own list of manga and explained why I put Bleach as my favorite, exactly what the topic of this thread is. The problems arose when people started thinking I was saying it should be everyone's favorite perfect manga. I originally did try to formulate it humorously over the top fanboy-y so that people wouldn't take it overly seriously as a claim that Bleach is perfection, but obviously I had to drop that pretty quickly. 

I do actually carefully plan out what I write specifically so that I don't end up claiming something I don't intend, because that isn't my intent. I happen to have Asperger's Syndrome, so I honestly can't tell how people will understand me beforehand.
I bring that up because, would you mind mentioning what I wrote that baited people into arguing with me? I honestly can't see what made people think I was trying to portray Bleach as the deepest manga ever, and the answer could feasibly help me avoid it in the future.


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## manidk (Jun 29, 2013)

Yoshihiro_Togashi said:


> I'm done.
> *As somebody who knows for a fact that Aspergers does not exist*



Oh my god.


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## Fiona (Jun 29, 2013)

PPsycho said:


> Reread your posts from the first page.
> 
> It always baffles me how people give a shit about what others read and the length they go to just to bash a single work of fiction and a person that enjoys it. And those same people react in exactly the same way as their hate targets whenever their favorite manga is bashed. A spiral of silliness.





Repped.


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## Shivers (Jun 29, 2013)

MadmanRobz said:


> I
> I bring that up because, would you mind mentioning what I wrote that baited people into arguing with me? I honestly can't see what made people think I was trying to portray Bleach as the deepest manga ever, and the answer could feasibly help me avoid it in the future.



All right.

First of all, Bleach is widely (and rightly) regarded as a superficial, pretentious, lazy and repetitive manga. So anyone representing it as having philosophical merit is fighting an uphill battle to begin with, because people automatically (and rightly) assume that if you mention its philosophical aspects, you're doing so because those aspects are laudable, which they aren't.

That aside...

Try and avoid being patronising, since it seems like you're presuming some sort of intellectual superiority, i.e.



> ...Sigh. I hate children.
> 
> I'll give you the most basic ones then, just so you'll at least get a slight chance of understanding them.





> a deity? (That basically means "A god," It's a tough word I know, but you can practice it for a while and it'll stick.)





> And that's never spelt out to the readers either, we are only shown the characters and the conclusion is left for us to draw.
> (Though I don't think you've done that.)





> In fact, never mind, here's one anyway: (Though I suspect it's full implications will go over your head.)



Then there's the content of your post which clearly seemed to be portraying Bleach as such:



> That alone is a philosophical question that even the greatest adult minds and philosophers still ponder over.





> How about Mayuri's truly beautiful and masterfully phrased speech on perfection





> I'm not even going to get started on Aizen's ludicrous amounts of poetic philosophy. His quotes alone can (and has) fill(ed) up entire essays, and has in fact even been used for courses in philosophy at least here in Sweden.



Not to mention all this:



> I happen to be in love with Hueco Mundo and the Menos Forest at the moment. They're so simple, yet so meaningful. An eternal dark dessert where Darwin rules, with nothing but nightmare-fuel, pale monsters in any direction. A melancholic and depressing eternal hunting ground for the people who couldn't let go of their attachments to life, a perfect setting that truly reflects it's inhabitants.
> And the Menos Forest! Pure brilliance. Massive dead underground trees that make up the foundation of the previously mentioned desserts, filled with all of limbo's younger inhabitants, a beautifully illustrated metaphor for said inhabitants being on the bottom of the food chain with the greatest hunters taking residence above ground. The Menos Grande themselves fit perfectly (esthetically) into that atmosphere and setting.


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## dream (Jun 29, 2013)




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