# Rank these Ninjas



## Kazekage94 (Dec 9, 2014)

Rank these characters

Ei
Ohnoki
Tsunade
Sasori
Itachi
MS Obito
Gaara(desert)
Orochimaru
Jiraya
Pain
MS Sasuke

What tiers are these characters located in?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2014)

1. Itachi/Pain
2. MS Obito/MS Sasuke
3. A
4. Sasori
5. Jiraiya/Orochimaru
6. Oonoki
7. Tsunade
8. Gaara (desert)


Tier separation is arbitrary, but this is the general ranking.


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## Mider T (Dec 9, 2014)

Plural of ninja is ninja.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2014)

Overall, I'd rank them like this:

1. Obito / Itachi / Pain / Gaara (in desert)

2. Sasuke / Onoki / Jiraiya (sage)

3. Jiraiya (base) / Orochimaru / Tsunade / Sasori

4. Gaara (not in desert) / A

I can explain why if someone asks me, but yeah, I'd say like that.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *1. Itachi/Pain*
> 2. MS Obito/MS Sasuke
> 3. A
> 4. Sasori
> ...



lol Itachi should not be ranked with Pain....

He isn't even as half as strong as Pain is...


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## Bloo (Dec 9, 2014)

1. Pein
2. MS Obito / Itachi / Gaara (Desert)
3. MS Sasuke / Ohnoki / Jiraiya (Sennin Modo)*
4. Jiraiya / Orochimaru
5. Sasori / Tsunade / Ei

_*Jiraiya starts in Sennin Modo_


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Itachi proved he'd be a problem for Pain when Nagato, who was stated to be way faster with jutsu than Pain, couldn't react or throw up any kind of barrier against the Totsuka extension from  when he was looking right at where it came out of. Pain would be mowed down by the hyped items.

However, Pain will possesses destructive jutsu well above Itachi's level, like Chibaku Tensei and Chou Shinra Tensei, but Itachi was also given village-level threat jutsu in the form of mass genjutsu that Shikaku and Kabuto hyped to being able to affect a world war, the ability held back as Kabuto's ace along with two Rinnegan sets.​

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bloo (Dec 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi proved he'd be a problem for Pain when Nagato, who was stated to be way faster with jutsu than Pain, couldn't react to throw up any kind of barrier against the Totsuka extension from  when he was looking right at where it came out of. Pain would be completely mowed down.
> 
> However, Pain will possesses destructive jutsu well above Itachi level, like Chibaku Tensei, but Itachi also has village-level threat jutsu in the form of the genjutsu that Shikaku and Kabuto hyped to being able to affect a world war.​


I disagree with this. Nagato can execute jutsu faster, but Pein is more dangerous. Pein is still six separate opponents to worry about, one of which can revive the other five as they're defeated. I can't think of an argument, beyond Naruto's statement about Nagato, that even surmounts to explain that very logical condition as to why Pein would be more dangerous in battle. Especially for someone of Itachi's arsenal who is better in one-on-one fights.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi proved he'd be a problem for Pain when Nagato, who was stated to be way faster with jutsu than Pain, couldn't react to throw up any kind of barrier against the Totsuka extension from  when he was looking right at where it came out of. Pain would be completely mowed down.
> 
> However, Pain will possesses destructive jutsu well above Itachi level, like Chibaku Tensei and Chou Shinra Tensei, but Itachi was also given village-level threat jutsu in the form of mass genjutsu that Shikaku and Kabuto hyped to being able to affect a world war, the ability held back as Kabuto's ace along with two Rinnegan sets.​



lol mass genjutsu my ass.

Anyone who says Itachi can hold his own against or even defeat the six paths of pain is crazy.

The only person who has a chance of killing pain below hashirama/madara level is obito.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2014)

Perhaps Bloo, but I consider the only body that is a threat to Itachi at all is Deva Path, who is too slow to react to the Totsuka extension with defensive jutsu, given that Nagato could not.

Itachi possesses the evasiveness to avoid all other Paths' attacks, and the flicker and weapon speed to bring them down with combinations of paralyzing genjutsu and weapons.

Similarly, only Deva and Preta can even really do anything about the basic rib-cage defense, and both are vulnerable to genjutsu and Itachi's superior movement, skill, and versatility.

Yes, Itachi would be tired after killing 6-9 Pain bodies, but he would definitely do it in my opinion.​


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## Bloo (Dec 9, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol mass genjutsu my ass.
> 
> Anyone who says Itachi can hold his own against or even defeat the six paths of pain is crazy.
> 
> The only person who has a chance of killing pain below hashirama/madara level is obito.


MS Obito stands no chance against Pein. And I'd say that SM Naruto, the character that did beat Pein, has a pretty good shot.



Strategoob said:


> Perhaps Bloo, but I consider the only body that is a threat to Itachi at all is Deva Path, who is too slow to react to the Totsuka extension with defensive jutsu, given that Nagato could not.
> 
> Itachi possesses the evasiveness to avoid all other Paths' attacks, and the flicker and weapon speed to bring them down with combinations of paralyzing genjutsu and weapons.
> 
> Similarly, only Deva and Preta can even really do anything about the basic rib-cage defense, and both are vulnerable to genjutsu and Itachi's superior movement, skill, and versatility.​


One thing I've always been curious about is how Itachi's visual genjutsu would work on Nagato through the Six Paths. I think it would be interesting if Nagato were to be hit by it because of Shared Vision. I doubt that would happen, but it would be a pretty slick weakness.

I agree that Tendō would be the main threat for Itachi, but I fear Itachi could be overwhelmed from the support of the other five realms. Regardless, I typically rank Pein as being higher than Itachi due to his sheer power. When it comes to pure skill, Pein/Nagato doesn't hold a candle to Itachi and that's why Itachi was able to ultimately beat out Nagato. That and he had less bodies to worry about.


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## Bonly (Dec 9, 2014)

Orochi with Edo(assuming they work with him)
MS Obito
Pain
Itachi
Jiraiya/Onoki/Orochi 
Gaara/Tsunade/MS Sasuke
Sasori
A



Kazekage94 said:


> What tiers are these characters located in?



I'd say that everyone on the list would be high Kage level bar A+Sasori who would be Mid Kage level


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol Itachi should not be ranked with Pain....
> 
> He isn't even as half as strong as Pain is...



Itachi defeated Nagato.

GG.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol mass genjutsu my ass.
> 
> Anyone who says Itachi can hold his own against or even defeat the six paths of pain is crazy.
> 
> The only person who has a chance of killing pain below hashirama/madara level is obito.



Itachi has a decent chance of beating Pain with Izanami.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh yeah, Izanami would definitely work on god-complex Pain.


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## Puppetry (Dec 9, 2014)

That requires you to believe that _genjutsu_ is a viable tactic against Pain.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 9, 2014)

Mider T said:


> Plural of ninja is ninja.



Idk why autocorrect had that word lol.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> That requires you to believe that _genjutsu_ is a viable tactic against Pain.



It is, as Jiraiya's toads demonstrated.

In fact, it's probably the best tactic available to Itachi.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi defeated Pain.


With the assistance of 2 Top Tiers.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> With the assistance of 2 Top Tiers.



Standing next to him and doing nothing while he blitzed Nagato through a dust cloud is not "assistance."


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## Puppetry (Dec 9, 2014)

_Magen: Gama Rinshō_ can ensnare multiple targets and it is still debated whether Jiraiya actually caught Nagato. At best _Izanami_ can hit two bodies, and if it only engages the interface he's using, then Itachi's getting the short end of the stick.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Standing next to him and doing nothing while he blitzed Nagato through a dust cloud is not "assistance."


Itachi has no counter to CT.
Bijuu dama and FRS are stronger than YM. 
It's safe to assume that without extra help Itachi loses horribly.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 9, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Itachi has no counter to CT.
> Bijuu dama and FRS are stronger than YM.
> It's safe to assume that without extra help Itachi loses horribly.



Every shinobi with speed like Nagato's can counter CT: Don't get caught in it in the first place. Wherever Nagato throws the orb, Itachi just has to run toward Nagato and get behind him. Wasted Jutsu.

Besides, if CT is the one thing separating Nagato from Itachi, then I wouldn't call that a difference in level so much as just a bad match. But Itachi could plausibly avoid it if he knew what it was. Hitting it with Amaterasu before it gathers debris might destabilize and eventually consume the core, as well.


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## Veracity (Dec 9, 2014)

Obito | Pain
Ms Itachi | Sasuke 
Sannin | Onoki 
Ei | Gaara 
Sasori


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## Ersa (Dec 9, 2014)

1. Pain
2. Obito
3. Itachi
4. Sasuke
5. Jiraiya
6. Orochimaru
7. Onoki
8. Ei, Tsunade, Sasori
9. Gaara (desert)
10. Gaara

Gaara's best feats took place in the desert and even then wasn't too impressive. The rest is fairly obvious imo although Obito and Pein are interchangeable and I'm assuming this is just MS Obito.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> 1. Pain
> 2. Obito
> 3. Itachi
> 4. Sasuke
> ...



You have to be trolling. I know y'all hate Gaara but Damn. 
Gaara in a desert destroys Tsunade Sasori definitely


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## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2014)

Based on overall abilities from strongest to weakest 
1. Pein
2. Tobi
3. Itachi 
4. Sasuke
5. Onoki
6. Jiraiya 
7. Ay 
8. Gaara 
9. Orochimaru 
10. Sasori 
11. Tsunade


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Every shinobi with speed like Nagato's can counter CT: Don't get caught in it in the first place. Wherever Nagato throws the orb, Itachi just has to run toward Nagato and get behind him. Wasted Jutsu.
> 
> Besides, if CT is the one thing separating Nagato from Itachi, then I wouldn't call that a difference in level so much as just a bad match. But Itachi could plausibly avoid it if he knew what it was. Hitting it with Amaterasu before it gathers debris might destabilize and eventually consume the core, as well.



So you expect Nagato to just stand there?

Nagato thrashed Itachi. You have to have FTG or Naruto speed to evade it and even KCM Naruto who is faster than Itachi couldn't ago it. There is no proof to suggest that Ama is stronger enough.


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## Ersa (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> You have to be trolling. I know y'all hate Gaara but Damn.
> Gaara in a desert destroys Tsunade Sasori definitely


I love how you single my post out when there are tonnes of posts also putting him below Tsunade.

Nikushimi and like boss for example, no I don't hate Gaara I just think he's grossly overrated.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I love how you single my post out when there aRe tones of posts also putting him below Tsunade.
> 
> Nikushimi and like boss for example, no I don't hate Gaara I just think he's grossly overrated.



Well Boss is a Tsunade fanboy and Niku hates Gaara. He stated it. 

So you think hes overrated yet you put him below Sasori in a desert? Seriously? That's underestimating him. You know it.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Ei and onoki above gaara , so is itachi 

This is not even me talking about direct match up cuz am sick of that 

In terms of quality or jutsu and how their jutsu compared to the verse 

Onoki would pose more problems for the general public so would Ei

Now Nagato is above all since his jutsu auto troll most jutsu in the verse 

Despite tsunade S rank healing and super strength I won't put her above gaara because all that is needed to defeat her is superior speed something a lot of ninja have in abundance


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## FlamingRain (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> So you think hes overrated yet you put him below Sasori in a desert? Seriously? That's underestimating him. You know it.



Gaara's initial desert performance in Shippuden, still as the Shukaku's host, against an admittedly ill-prepared member of Akatsuki, was witnessed the village over and yet, it was still after this event that the Third Kazekage was mentioned to be strongest of them by _*far*_.

Sasori is stronger than the aforementioned Akatsuki member according to said Akatsuki member himself, and he killed that Kage prior to adding Satetsu to his own power. I think that's rather telling, because even by the time of the war arc Gaara was still an identical fighter to his father, beating him simply because he raised his sand through the gold faster than had been anticipated by the former Kage, and that really doesn't make him look like the superior _"by far"_.

I think if anyone's being underrated it's Sasori.



Icegaze said:


> Despite tsunade S rank healing and super strength I won't put her above gaara because all that is needed to defeat her is superior speed something a lot of ninja have in abundance



Lies and slander.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 10, 2014)

Pain
Orochimaru (zetsu body)
Oonoki
Itachi
Ei
MS Obito
Jiraya
Orochimaru (non-zetsu)
Tsunade
MS Sasuke
Gaara
Sasori

this is their overal level IMO, not necceseraly how they would handle against eachother.
Pain and zetsu oro are high kage-level, the rest are mid-kage level.


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## Mider T (Dec 10, 2014)

What's with everyone ranking Pein so highly?


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## Deer Lord (Dec 10, 2014)

Mider T said:


> What's with everyone ranking Pein so highly?


He's just overall the most impressive shinobi in this list, with widest range and most potent abilities.


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## Rocky (Dec 10, 2014)

Pain
Obito/Itachi
Sasuke
Sannin
A/Ōnoki/Gaara
Sasori


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

1.	Pain.
2.	Gaara (desert).
3.	Ei.
4.	Itachi.
5.	MS Sasuke/MS Obito.
6.	Oonoki.
7.	Jiraya.
8.	Orochimaru.
9.	Sasori.
10.	Tsunade.


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## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2014)

Mider T said:


> What's with everyone ranking Pein so highly?


he has overall the greatest firepower here, hes one of the most versatile here as well, and facing him without intel is just a suicide for pretty much everyone here, 
apart from Obito, none of them even stand  a chance against him 



Rocky said:


> Pain
> Obito/Itachi
> Sasuke
> Sannin
> ...


Onoki is stronger than every single Sannin herre, he needs to be above them 
A can also potentially beat every single sannin bar possibly Jiraiya 
Gaara is also above every sannin bar Jiraiya 

these 3 need to be above the sannin 


StarWanderer said:


> 1.	Pain.
> 2.	Gaara (desert).
> 3.	Ei.
> 4.	Itachi.
> ...



Gaara is way too high on ur list, and Obito is way too low, no one bar possibly Pein could even stand a chance against him ,  he needs to be either at 1  or 2, nothing below 

Onoki, Obito, Jiraiya, Itachi and Sasuke are overall superior to gaara and most of them also beat him, 
Ay is abit too high as well,


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

ok i get gaara got a fan base but did someone just put him above MS obito. 

wtf...and people complain about itachi and minato wanking. That singular post is the most horrible wanking ever. 

obito absolutely shits on gaara so easily its not even funny. i mean the actual dumbing on gaara face wont be funny 

@flamming, regen cant grow a head or neck back. orochimaru also implied she could be strangled to death. 

obito
Nagato
pain
onoki/itachi/MS sasuke
Ei

everyone on the list is below that


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> he has overall the greatest firepower here, hes one of the most versatile here as well, and facing him without intel is just a suicide for pretty much everyone here,
> apart from Obito, none of them even stand  a chance against him
> 
> 
> ...



I'll explain. Ei is higher than Obito because he can attack him for 5 minutes non-stop so he can become touchable. He has lots of chakra and do not forget Obito has MS. So he may be suffering from MS usage side effects.

Gaara is in the desert, since OP stated that. And his sand is fast enough to react to Raikage Ei in his V2 Armor. He can counter anything Itachi, or anyone in the list has, except Pain.

Obito has no Kamui feats to suggest he can go pass Itachi's Susanoo. And he already showed his vulnerability to Amaterasu. Plus genjutsu. But it is debatable if Obito can, or cant go out Tsukuyomi.

Ei can dodge anything Itachi has, plus he has more chakra, plus Itachi cant cover his Susanoo in Amaterasu like Sasuke, and Yata Mirror is featless. And Itachi cant sustain it for long time.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

gaara sand has no feats to suggest it can avoid or prevent kamui phasing or warp



imagine Ei being above obito. while i think Ei doesnt get trolled he is no doubt below

but hey, kisame has no genjutus feats yet he can break out of genjjutsu. yata mirror never faced any element bar kirin which is its purpose yet somehow it is featless. i love this flip flop logic


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## Mercurial (Dec 10, 2014)

MS Obito
Pain
Gaara (desert)
Itachi
MS Sasuke
Ohnoki
Ei
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Sasori
Gaara (normally)
Tsunade


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> gaara sand has no feats to suggest it can avoid or prevent kamui phasing or warp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gaara can protect himself from Kamui by his sand so Obito can Kamui sand, not Gaara himself.

Well, we dont know if Itachi used Yata Mirror in order to protect himself from Kirin.

And Ei can attack him for 5 minutes non-stop so Obito can become tangible.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

hahahahaah....ok sure. cuz if obito walks direclty in gaara face then decides to kamui wrap gaara sand is fast enough to save gaara. i get u 

obito can phase through the ground and come up behind Ei. seriously its amazing. how old are you?? not even an insult i need to know, cuz ur logic is really awful. 

gaara can absolutely do noting to obito. obito walks up to him. and kamui wraps him. the end, his ability ultimately trolls gaara

obito fights 4 kage level ninja, they cant manage to touch him without another one of them havin kamui 

yet this gaara magic sand can save him from obito 

1 question what if there was green sand around?? would that make gaara loose since he is somehow allergic to green sand. u noe since anime is canon and all


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## Mercurial (Dec 10, 2014)

Gaara troubling Obito? Lol come on.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> hahahahaah....ok sure. cuz if obito walks direclty in gaara face then decides to kamui wrap gaara sand is fast enough to save gaara. i get u
> 
> obito can phase through the ground and come up behind Ei. seriously its amazing. how old are you?? not even an insult i need to know, cuz ur logic is really awful.
> 
> ...



Obito teleports right to his face - Gaara puts sand in front of himself. And yeah - his sand is very fast. 

And? Ei has Body Flicker technique and is very fast by himself. Plus, Obito has to touch him in order to Kamui him.

Since this fight is in the desert, Gaara have a chance against Obito.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

apparently its possible 

this gaara is just amazing. kishi certainly didnt create this character though. i mean from what i am reading gaara sand is faster than kamui 

that is ultimately impressive. i fear fan fic gaara. he may just troll juudara


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## Mercurial (Dec 10, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Obito teleports right to his face - Gaara puts sand in front of himself. And yeah - his sand is very fast.
> 
> And? Ei has Body Flicker technique and is very fast by himself. Plus, Obito has to touch him in order to Kamui him.
> 
> Since this fight is in the desert, Gaara have a chance against Obito.



Lol no. His sand is definitely not fast enough to do this.

Obito can easily react to him and outperform him with Kamui. Ei's speed is nothing troubling for people of Obito's level.

He doesn't have any chance at all.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

i am terrified of fan fic gaara. he is soooo strong yet cant control sand because in the anime it was green. 

jouki boy must be faster than kamui, so is Muu and madara they are insane. but ooops wait, Ei did straight up blitz madara, to which madara commented he is fast. then called the kage offense impressive right after saying Mei lava wasnt worth absorbing 

So using feats cuz its a must to use them, Gaara blocks Ei fastest kick SSMG will tell u this

then fails to catch madara and Muu, but wait Ei showed greater footspeed than madara to which madara stated he is fast. 

so gaara sand>Ei>madara=Muu>Ei 

am confused

please explain ooh mighty SSMG using these feats of course. dont deviate i want to get your logic here


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2014)

Overall Strength:

MS Obito
Pein 
Itachi
Ei 
Onoki
MS Sasuke
Gaara
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Sasori


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

wow after the post above i think i need to re-read the manga. people really do rate gaara highly. 

aite then, didn tknow. am baffled onoki below gaara. imagine that


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2014)

I didn't even know Gaara was in the list, edited accordingly.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

nah still cant agree. how can he be above jiraiya 
seriously thats good ratings man!! wow, he got rep. its mad never saw it


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2014)

Jiraiya has a better range of offensive techniques but Gaara can't be easily touched. That's why I have MS Obito at the top, not many people can take him.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

i agree gaara cant be easily touched 

but his sand can be weighed down, marked, trolled with oil, can be by passed with speed shown from part 1 to part 2, (in both parts he got trolled by speed, however won due to intelligence) 

his sand also cant protect against jinton, however certainly can against enton 

He got a very good offence and defence but i seriously do not see how he is goign to do anything if jiriaya decides to be a dick and summon 3 boss toads. to restrain them alone would be tough for him. add oil into it and he is living in a night mare

oro can easily do the same with snakes

i am shocked people put oro so low actually, ET, hydra and an inability to die to me puts him easily just below MS obito. but people love to take the jutsu away from him, despite him saying it isnt very complex and is something he seems to spam. 

revising your list i think 

MS Obito
Pein 
onoki/Itachi
jiraiya/orochimaru
MS sasuke/Ei 
Gaara
Tsunade
Sasori


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> i agree gaara cant be easily touched
> 
> but his sand can be weighed down, marked, trolled with oil, can be by passed with speed shown from part 1 to part 2, (in both parts he got trolled by speed, however won due to intelligence)
> 
> ...



This is why I don't really post in these threads. I agree with what you're saying but I don't think anyone will _ever_ be able to make a completely accurate list with powerful characters like these.

Jiraiya can defeat Gaara but I think that Gaara has more of an advantage against average opponents than Jiraiya. He can force enemies at a distance and protect himself while attacking.

I put Orochimaru low but that's based on my lack of knowledge, we can't accurately assess whether ET is something he regularly resorts to due to him not having much chance to use it. His arms were damaged against Tsunade and Jiraiya, he wanted Naruto and co alive to take out the Akatsuki, against Sasuke he was sick and wanted to take his body and against Obito and Madara he already had Edo out.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 10, 2014)

The thing about obito is, he's a one-trick rabbit
Outside of kamui he really isn't even on kage tier in terms of overall skill (the MS version of his anyway)
As displayed when he fough kakashi in kamui-land.

If you are ranking people here in terms of who is the most impressive shinobi then obito would only be in the middle. If you are ranking them in terms of who would win against the others then obito would come out on top.


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> The thing about obito is, he's a one-trick rabbit
> Outside of kamui he really isn't even on kage tier in terms of overall skill (the MS version of his anyway)
> As displayed when he fough kakashi in kamui-land.
> 
> If you are ranking people here in terms of who is the most impressive shinobi then obito would only be in the middle. If you are ranking them in terms of who would win against the others then obito would come out on top.



That's one ability but Obito's entire fighting style revolves around Kamui. It's not like Kakashi with Kamui or Minato with Shiki Fujin.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

well it doesnt have to be accurate it cant be its opinions based on a manga we enjoy far too much 

thats the thing i think jiraiya has more of an advantage against the verse than gaara. 

jiraiya can protect himself while attack with very giant toads. 

he used it in the only fight he had his arms. thats 100% used in battle. when he got his arms back he used it again

me i look at the people techniques and how those techniques go against the verse

for example ET is something most are poorly equipped to deal with

onoki, itachi, obito, pein, sasuke, jiriaya, gaara have ways of dealign with them with varry difficulty 

now u take kamui and the list gets shorter so on and so forth. thats how i tend to rate ninja 

now Ei speed is something most have trouble with hence why ill put him over gaara, not only does his shroud tank high speed attacks like chidori. he himself is fast and with his strength over 90% of the verse die on contact 

if u look at things that way it makes it easy


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## Deer Lord (Dec 10, 2014)

It's more like minato with hiraishin.
And I hold the same opinion of him, he isn't more impressive the the other hokage really, but he'd beat all of them bar hashi in a 1v1 fight cause his major ability is broken.


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## Ghost (Dec 10, 2014)

1. Pain/Itachi/Obito
2. Ei/Sasuke
3. Jiraiya/Oro/Sasori/Gaara/Onoki
4. Tsunade


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Gaara's initial desert performance in Shippuden, still as the Shukaku's host, against an admittedly ill-prepared member of Akatsuki, was witnessed the village over and yet, it was still after this event that the Third Kazekage was mentioned to be strongest of them by _*far*_.


I think it's quite clear that Gaara surpassed the 3rd Kazekage.
He was only stated as the most powerful because Iron Sand > Sand
Yet at the same time Gold Dust > Sand and yet Gaara still beat his father. The 3rd Kazekage was stated to be the strongest at the beginnging of part 2 BEFORE he fought Deidara. And only lost due to saving the village.




> Sasori is stronger than the aforementioned Akatsuki member according to said Akatsuki member himself, and he killed that Kage prior to adding Satetsu to his own power. I think that's rather telling, because even by the time of the war arc Gaara was still an identical fighter to his father, beating him simply because he raised his sand through the gold faster than had been anticipated by the former Kage, and that really doesn't make him look like the superior _"by far"_.


The 4th Kazekage stated that Gaara surpassed him long ago. He outsmarted his old man without difficulty. 
Sasori was said to be stronger but most people don't believe that.



> I think if anyone's being underrated it's Sasori.


How is Sasori being underrated? He was beaten by Part 2 Sakura and Chiyo. Now, by portrayal, that'srreally terrible. Sasori is powerful and all but his whole set up is nothing special. Many characters can beat him at the start of he starts in Hiruko which he normally does. 
Gaara has better feats and has a higher portrayal than him.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I'll explain. Ei is higher than Obito because he can attack him for 5 minutes non-stop so he can become touchable. He has lots of chakra and do not forget Obito has MS. So he may be suffering from MS usage side effects.


He cant attack him non stop for over 5minutes thats insane, 
obito goes through one of Ays attacks, then for a moment becomes tangible therefore the 5min kamui limit starts right from phase 1, 
and Obito doesnt suffer from any MS usage side effects thanks to hashiramas DNA that he has


> Gaara is in the desert, since OP stated that. And his sand is fast enough to react to Raikage Ei in his V2 Armor.


Joki Boy was shown to be faster than gaaras sand, 
V2 Ay is on a whole other level when it comes to speed, no way is his sand fast enough to react to him 


> He can counter anything Itachi, or anyone in the list has, except Pain.


Nope he cant, 

 - Onoki can make his sand extremely heavy, and his jinton laughs at his defense so he beats him mid diff,  

 - Jiraiyas oil, and water cannons from bunta counters gaaras sand hard, along with Food Cart Destroyer slamming him down followed by a Rasengan takes him out as well, 

 - Obito laughs at gaars sand, and phases through it, followed by a kamui warp, gaara has nothing on him  at all 

these 3 above alone can comfortably beat him, and are overall superior to gaara as well, 



> Obito has no Kamui feats to suggest he can go pass Itachi's Susanoo. And he already showed his vulnerability to Amaterasu. Plus genjutsu. But it is debatable if Obito can, or cant go out Tsukuyomi.


Obitos intangibility alone trolls on everything itachi or sasuke would throw at him, 
and what exactly does he need? 
he can kamui through the susanoo and warp the users, susanoo is not doing shit here, 
amaterasu is not doing shit either when, obito has the reflexes to react too it, and his intangiblity trolls on it as well, 



> Ei can dodge anything Itachi has, plus he has more chakra, plus Itachi cant cover his Susanoo in Amaterasu like Sasuke, and Yata Mirror is featless. And Itachi cant sustain it for long time.


Just because Ay can beat Itachi or Sasuke, doesnt make him above them, 
OVERALL, itachi and sasuke are still superior


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze332 said:
			
		

> apparently its possible
> 
> this gaara is just amazing. kishi certainly didnt create this character though. i mean from what i am reading gaara sand is faster than kamui
> 
> that is ultimately impressive. i fear fan fic gaara. he may just troll juudara



I am not going to say that Gaara wins but he gives MS Obito trouble. MS Before the War Arc. 
By portrayal idk who is above who. (MS Before the War Arc)
In a desert surrounding I'm not saying Gaara is unstoppable but give him his credit. Any ground opponent would have gotten the shit stomped out of them.

Gaara would beat
Kakuzu 
Konan
Sasori
Hidan
Deidara
Kisame
Orochimaru

In the desert with no problems unless they tried to attack the village and more


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> He cant attack him non stop for over 5minutes thats insane,
> obito goes through one of Ays attacks, then for a moment becomes tangible therefore the 5min kamui limit starts right from phase 1,
> and Obito doesnt suffer from any MS usage side effects thanks to hashiramas DNA that he has
> 
> ...



I will argue some of your points later. Maybe. But one thing i need to settle:

maybe Gaara wasnt as fast in his fight with Deidara as he was during his fight with Raikage. But the fact is the fact - his sand can react to Raikage and Amaterasu.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Joki Boy was shown to be faster than gaaras sand,
> V2 Ay is on a whole other level when it comes to speed, no way is his sand fast enough to react to him


Joking Boy was shown to be faster than his ground sand yes. Gaara never used gourd sand on Joki Boy. V2 is wayy faster but Gaara kost definitely has the feats to block his moves. The fact that his sand made it in time and Ay was covered in lightning his an enormous feat



> - Onoki can make his sand extremely heavy, and his jinton laughs at his defense so he beats him mid diff,


Not all of his sand and not before Gaara completely blindsides him with a village sized Tsunami. Jinton is laughed at by a clone. Gaara is a better tactician than Ohnoki and had to save his ass.


> - Jiraiyas oil, and water cannons from bunta counters gaaras sand hard, along with Food Cart Destroyer slamming him down followed by a Rasengan takes him out as well,
> No it doesnt. The amount he has in Suna is ridiculous. Gaara has has already proven that he can outsmart someone even with oil. Jiraya's summons get destroyed. Jiraya goes down as well.
> 
> 
> ...


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## DavyChan (Dec 10, 2014)

This would have been a lot more fun if you added Sakura.

Pain
Itachi
MS Obito
Jiraiya
MS Sasuke
Sakura
Orochimaru
Ohnoki
Tsunade
Ei
Gaara
Sasori


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I am not going to say that Gaara wins but he gives MS Obito trouble. MS Before the War Arc.
> By portrayal idk who is above who. (MS Before the War Arc)
> In a desert surrounding I'm not saying Gaara is unstoppable but give him his credit. Any ground opponent would have gotten the shit stomped out of them.
> 
> ...



i certainly give him his credit do not get me wrong this isnt some character bashing. I do not do that. 

however in a desert or not he cannot stop obito. gaara gourd sand is no doubt faster than desert sand so being in a desert doesnt help him against someone who can simply phase through his fastest attack 

as for gaara beating kisame. daikodan would be a nightmare for someone attempting to use ninjutus to block. u can say its featless not every single jutsu in the manga has feats. its only 700 chapters long. however a jutus described to get stronger with ninjutsu will defeat the ninjutus being used to defend it. 

now considering C1 to the face took out gaara. kisame murders the poor kid 

gaara isnt stopping orochimaru hydra with any sort of ease or orochimaru ET. people love to take that away from orochimaru 

as for konan slipping paper bombs in his sand using deidara tactic isnt above her reach she is also very very hard to crush. which is gaara only form of attacking a person 

i will not discuss deidara, u get hostile in the C4 trolls gaara situation 

the rest i gotta agree with u. yh 

i just need u to be more objective u wont be bad to argue with if u were.

I also need u to explain why gaara didnt just use his super i block Ei kick gourd sand to catch jouki boy. if u can stop its movement it becomes useless. 

if gaara sand could easily stop it dont u think he would have?? are u saying he intentional used desert sand despite fullying denying they are fighting in a desert? 

so where did gaara get said desert sand from?


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> however in a desert or not he cannot stop obito. gaara gourd sand is no doubt faster than desert sand so being in a desert doesnt help him against someone who can simply phase through his fastest attack


I never said he beats him I just said he will have difficulty beating Gaara.


> as for gaara beating kisame. daikodan would be a nightmare for someone attempting to use ninjutus to block. u can say its featless not every single jutsu in the manga has feats. its only 700 chapters long. however a jutus described to get stronger with ninjutsu will defeat the ninjutus being used to defend it.


Well Gaara's Tsunamis tower above Villages while Daikodan towers above trees but not by much. The Tsunami can take out Daikodan. 



> now considering C1 to the face took out gaara. kisame murders the poor kid


C1 never took Gaara out, after he was hit, Gaara moved the remaining amount of sand away from the village, depleting his chakra. Chakra loss is what took him out.



> gaara isnt stopping orochimaru hydra with any sort of ease or orochimaru ET. people love to take that away from orochimaru


I meant Orochimaru without ET. How isn't he? He has the capabilities to do it. 



> as for konan slipping paper bombs in his sand using deidara tactic isnt above her reach she is also very very hard to crush. which is gaara only form of attacking a person


Gaara won't give her that chance. Paper bombs aren't getting through his defense. Id argue he can move the paper bombs out even if that happen. They can't really hurt each other. Sand is heavier than paper so he can seal her. 


> i will not discuss deidara, u get hostile in the C4 trolls gaara situation


Assuming he has time to execute it. I think Gaara can kill him way before that. 



> i just need u to be more objective u wont be bad to argue with if u were.


I haven't said anything ludicrous though. 



> I also need u to explain why gaara didnt just use his super i block Ei kick gourd sand to catch jouki boy. if u can stop its movement it becomes useless.


I told you already. Gaara had a plan he was trying to execute. He was trying to get Joki Boy to attack the clone which he succeeded in. I don't think he was trying to catch Joki Boy at all, just provoke him.



> if gaara sand could easily stop it dont u think he would have?? are u saying he intentional used desert sand despite fullying denying they are fighting in a desert?


As stated before he already had a plan. He needed time to mix the gold dust. I still don't think it was a desert.


> so where did gaara get said desert sand from?


He grinded the sand dude


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I never said he beats him I just said he will have difficulty beating Gaara.
> 
> Well Gaara's Tsunamis tower above Villages while Daikodan towers above trees but not by much. The Tsunami can take out Daikodan.
> 
> ...



jouki boy is hardly a person. its a technique how is he provoking it exactly. so u mean gaara watched his comardes die while provokign it but could have caught it at any time with his sand?

daikodan will plow through the tsunami. i am not comparing them in size. the sand that daikodan would be in contact with will become devoid of chakra.daikodan will get bigger and stronger then explode 

i do not see why konan slipping tags in wont work. swap her with deidara. she can get her arm crushed. leave tags behind and have gaara use that sand to defend. i dont see why its impossible. gaara isnt above being fooled. as u have seen in the manga

i know ur opinion on the deidara thing. which is why i said u are biased for no reason. if deidara bombs are failing why would he not quickly opt for C4?? considering gaara is the best victim for it. 
he defends he doesnt try to avoid things. 

u also dont think its a desert despite Muu from miles away walking on sand. so there was just alot of sand around but it wasnt a desert. please show 1 panel in that entire battle where they arent standing on sand. the whole place was sand. 

like i said wont be bad but somehow all that sand around and its not a desert. did u see any grass, or water or any other non rock landscape? 

Please note kimimaro in the past ran on gaara sand after sabaku taiso and gaara couldnt even catch him. same thing happened with jouki boy 


i do not doubt gaara tricked jouki boy with a neat 1 time trick. however to imply he could have caught jouki boy at anytime and was simply stalling while getting injured by explosion and watching people die is simply wrong. if u thought about it u would see i am right


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 10, 2014)

Pain
Obito/Itachi_(Healthy)_
Sasuke_(Post-Danzo MS Mastery)_/Onoki_(Stone Willed)/_Itachi_(Sick)_/ Tsunade(Healing Role)
Jiraiya_(SM)_ / A 
Sannin / Onoki / <-------------------Middle of Mid-Kage Level Spectrum
Sasori
Gaara

I will say this is not just featwise.Featwise, Gaara in desert would be in a place inbetween Pain and Obito/Itachi. I'll elaborate.
^A lot of this is portrayal wise and author intent. 
Take for instance the Madara vs Kage Fight. It took place in the desert[1]. Gaara wasn't depicted to be the strongest or even second strongest kage imo even though he definitely could have been.

A lot of this has to due with author intent. An example would be Storm and Magneto in the X-Men. Storm can control weather while Magneto can control metal. Both those powers are capable of competing with one another I feel, but Magneto is depicted as stronger and more impactful than Storm just because the author wills it. It could be the other way around and Storm would be making class 5 hurricanes while magneto at max can only lift a truck. It's because Magneto is supposed to be stronger in the eyes of the author.

This is the case for all the others as well. Jiraiya casually talked to Tsunade about walking up to sunagakure and them potentially not being able to stop him from entering.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

lol kazekage is gonna kill u lawarence

what i dont get with ur logic kazekage is gaara went through this clone trickery. why?? if he could just simply catch him and restrain him with sand. considering gaara knew of the jutsu. all he had to do was restrain it. why willingly take damage?? couldnt his magic gourd sand just catch it?? i mean it did afterall block Ei kick and amaterasu


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

@Lawrence 
Quick question. Where would you place the 2nd Mizukage?


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> jouki boy is hardly a person. its a technique how is he provoking it exactly. so u mean gaara watched his comardes die while provokign it but could have caught it at any time with his sand?


Gaara was multitasking. He had to defend his comrades. And yes


> daikodan will plow through the tsunami. i am not comparing them in size. the sand that daikodan would be in contact with will become devoid of chakra.daikodan will get bigger and stronger then explode


No it won't. I don't think you get it. A Tsunami isn't onr wave of sand. If Gaara'a Tsunamis are larger how is Daikodan winning?


> i do not see why konan slipping tags in wont work. swap her with deidara. she can get her arm crushed. leave tags behind and have gaara use that sand to defend. i dont see why its impossible. gaara isnt above being fooled. as u have seen in the manga


Gaara upon war Arc achieved sensing sand. He can move the tags out if need be. He is above being fooled. Part 2 he had no knowledge on Deidara.


> i know ur opinion on the deidara thing. which is why i said u are biased for no reason. if deidara bombs are failing why would he not quickly opt for C4?? considering gaara is the best victim for it.
> he defends he doesnt try to avoid things.


He has the capability to do so. Are you saying with knowledge? C4 takes prep and in that time Gaara can kill Deidara. He can kill him before that even. With knowledge Gaara beats him low to mid difficulty. No desert. 



> u also dont think its a desert despite Muu from miles away walking on sand. so there was just alot of sand around but it wasnt a desert. please show 1 panel in that entire battle where they arent standing on sand. the whole place was sand.


It was a Rocky area. He wasn't standing on sand. 


> like i said wont be bad but somehow all that sand around and its not a desert. did u see any grass, or water or any other non rock landscape?


Yes


> Please note kimimaro in the past ran on gaara sand after sabaku taiso and gaara couldnt even catch him. same thing happened with jouki boy


Please note Kimimaro lost. Please that's also part 1.
Gaara can catch Kimimaro now.



> i do not doubt gaara tricked jouki boy with a neat 1 time trick. however to imply he could have caught jouki boy at anytime and was simply stalling while getting injured by explosion and watching people die is simply wrong. if u thought about it u would see i am right


Gaara was blocking explosions. Sand wasn't enough to stop Joki Boy thats why he needed to mix the gold dust with his sand dude. Thats the point I'm trying to make. When he did it, then he caught JB.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I think it's quite clear that Gaara surpassed the 3rd Kazekage.



This isn't clear at all.



> He was only stated as the most powerful because Iron Sand > Sand
> Yet at the same time Gold Dust > Sand and yet Gaara still beat his father. The 3rd Kazekage was stated to be the strongest at the beginnging of part 2 BEFORE he fought Deidara. And only lost due to saving the village.



Jinchūriki and Tailed Beasts are considered weapons just like Satetsu is, therefore if everyone saw Gaara fight Deidara using the desert, and the attacks Gaara used in the war simply served to remind the Fourth Kazekage of the Shukaku so many people already knew about, yet Chiyo still stated that Satetsu was the most feared weapon in the village which is located in the desert after Sasori stated that it was what lead to his name as the most powerful of the Kazekages, then the Third Kazekage can naturally be expected more dangerous than Gaara in the desert.

Also no, it wasn't stated before the fight, it was stated when Kankuro got mad at one of the advisors once Gaara had been captured. The guy who stated it started off with "we've faced a similar situation before"- the similarity being the defeat and abduction of a Kazekage. This was well after the battle.

Really one might say that the only reason Deidara had to even resort to attacking the village was because he needed to capture Gaara alive and came into the fight ill-prepared.



> The 4th Kazekage stated that Gaara surpassed him long ago. He outsmarted his old man without difficulty.



I don't remember him stating such a thing. And I don't remember him being outsmarted, I remember him incorrectly guesstimating Gaara's abilities; he underestimated how fast Gaara could work with his sand, not how tricky he was with it.



> Sasori was said to be stronger but most people don't believe that.



?



> How is Sasori being underrated? He was beaten by Part 2 Sakura and Chiyo. Now, by portrayal, that'srreally terrible.



Your second sentence pretty much answers your own question.

It doesn't take a genius to see that Sasori threw that fight. It may have only been mentioned at the end, but you'd have to wonder why he ever quit using Satetsu Shigure in spite of the fact that he had just forced Chiyo to throw away each of her defenses just to survive the first couple sprays, because had he not he'd have killed them casually right then and there. Unless of course, he was tripping up from the moment he realized he was going to have to fight his grandma who had his mother and father puppets.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Rank these characters
> 
> Ei
> Ohnoki
> ...



Orochimaru(War Arc)>Nagato

Gaara(Desert)>Obito(MS)

Jiraiya>Itachi(Edo)>Orochimaru(Pt 1)>Sasuke(MS)>Onoki>Tsunade>Gaara

Itachi(Sick)>Sasori>Ei>Orochimaru(Pt 2)


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## Patrick (Dec 10, 2014)

Someone really likes Gaara.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Gaara in a desert is like fucking Katara in an ocean or near a lake.
Not completely unstoppable but pretty damn powerful.


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara was multitasking. He had to defend his comrades. And yes
> 
> No it won't. I don't think you get it. A Tsunami isn't onr wave of sand. If Gaara'a Tsunamis are larger how is Daikodan winning?
> 
> ...



but gaara wasnt multi-tasking he had one task stop jouki boy. what else was he doing if i may ask?

its a wave of sand i get it, its bigger than daikodan cant dispute that. however daikodan is going to be coming in contact with only a portion of the sand, it cant come in contact with the whole thing. when daikodan comes in contact with a portion of sand. it gets bigger and stronger

that flies into gaara face. and gaara eats a titanic sized water blast in the face. considering base daikodan makes kisame look very very small 

chibi c4 which has been the entire basis of my deidara can beat gaara argument doesnt take time. it takes just as long as a C1. its just as small and comes from the mouths in deidara hand

when u say gaara achieved sensing sand in war arc are u saying its something he couldnt possibly have done before?? its sand. he controls it, if u step on it he should know. hardly a new thing for gaara. the fact that he only needed to use it against Muu then the mizukage is just that. 

when else has he needed to sense an opponent ??

why kazekage, are u saying jouki boy was standing on rocks?? what surface was he standing on?? grass? water? sand? please tell me, cuz for now u say its not sand what was it then?

why wont sand have been enough to stop JB if it was fast enough it would have. JB cant explode if he cant move. 

u do so well then go into trolling mode


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 10, 2014)

> Quick question. Where would you place the 2nd Mizukage?


I'd probably fit him somewhere in here:


> Jiraiya(SM) / A
> Sannin / Onoki



I'm not only applying that portrayal to Gaara mind you, I think Ei would easily be able to blitz onoki post-stonewill and most kages for that matter considering how close he came to flattening Minato. I just don't think the author would have it go that way after the way he portrayed Onoki, who was clearly the gokage mvp.  
[/QUOTE]Someone really likes Gaara. [/QUOTE]
I think it's fine to have a multitude of opinions. If everyone had a similar idea of character power this section wouldn't exist or would be extremely mundane. If  anything him making a thread to debate _his_ interpretation is more than alot of others can say or would do.


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## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

MS obito
Pein
Oonoki-Itachi-sm jirayia-Gaara desert
Ms sasuke -Ei-Orochimaru
Tsunade
Sasori


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## Nikushimi (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara would beat
> Kakuzu
> Konan
> Sasori
> ...



Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, and Orochimaru would murder Gaara in a desert.

The others he would beat. So, Kakuzu, Konan, Hidan...sure.



Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara in a desert is like fucking Katara in an ocean or near a lake.
> Not completely unstoppable but pretty damn powerful.



Kisame in an ocean isn't hyped up nearly as much as Gaara in a desert, yet he is far more dangerous, and would certainly beat desert Gaara.

He would also still lose to Itachi, which helps put desert Gaara into perspective...


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 10, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Well Boss is a Tsunade fanboy and Niku hates Gaara. He stated it.



I do hate Gaara, but it's not like that influences how I rank him here since I hate half the characters on this list (or even in the manga at this point). I hate Jiraiya, Sasuke, and Obito worse, yet I ranked all of them above Gaara.



> So you think hes overrated yet you put him below Sasori in a desert? Seriously? That's underestimating him. You know it.



Sasori beat the Kazekage who was explicitly stronger than Gaara's dad, who gave War Arc Gaara trouble. Sasori also became able to use that Kazekage and his Jutsu on top of his existing arsenal, and even added his poison to them. He's also stronger than Deidara, who beat Gaara in a desert with no intel and less than his full power.

So yeah, Sasori rapes Gaara in a desert, out of a desert, around a desert, under a desert, etc.



Kazekage94 said:


> So you expect Nagato to just stand there?



Well his legs are crippled, so yeah. 



> Nagato thrashed Itachi.



Is that why Kabuto was so mad that he punched the ground like a 10-year-old who lost at Call of Duty? 



> You have to have FTG or Naruto speed to evade it and even KCM Naruto who is faster than Itachi couldn't ago it.



Naruto had his chakra split and was only as fast as Itachi (he couldn't use Raikage-level Shunshin, which requires Bijuu-lvl chakra).



> There is no proof to suggest that Ama is stronger enough.



It was strong enough to destroy the Hachibi, who soaked a Juubidama. Chibaku Tensei>Juubidama?


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## Ennoia (Dec 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *Sasori, Deidara*, Kisame, and *Orochimaru* would murder Gaara in a desert.



Under what stipulations? Id figure Gaara would be one of the worst opponents for Sasori in a desert of all places.


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## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I will argue some of your points later. Maybe. But one thing i need to settle:
> 
> maybe Gaara wasnt as fast in his fight with Deidara as he was during his fight with Raikage. But the fact is the fact - his sand can react to Raikage and Amaterasu.



his sand reacted to enton not amaterasu, there is a vast speed difference between the 2, 
and his sand didnt react to Ay at all, he was in mid air, which is clearly no where near his shunshin



Kazekage94 said:


> Joking Boy was shown to be faster than his ground sand yes. Gaara never used gourd sand on Joki Boy. V2 is wayy faster but Gaara kost definitely has the feats to block his moves. The fact that his sand made it in time and Ay was covered in lightning his an enormous feat


Umm, Ay was mid air, meaning that he was in free fall, 
in what world is that considered Ays speed?, 
and when sasuke managed to use enton before Ay landed is a clear indication that his speed was nowhere near, 
especially when we saw just a few pages before that V2 Ay laughed at a faster attack and blitzed Sasuke completely, 

although the gourd sand is faster, its no where near fast enough to catch V2 Ay, 
gaara being able to even track V2 Ay, when even the sharingan couldnt keep up is a mere speculation, 



> Not all of his sand and not before Gaara completely blindsides him with a village sized Tsunami. Jinton is laughed at by a clone. Gaara is a better tactician than Ohnoki and had to save his ass


Weighted boulder jutsu, makes all the surrounding completely heavyy to a point that it will be slow af, and the gourd sand isnt sufficient to catch Onoki either, 
furthermore Jinton is not getting coutnered by a sand clone at all, 
the jutsus wide AOE and power laughs at gaara and his defenses completely, 

gaara saving his ass from Muu, doesnt means that he is stronger than Onoki, since he doesnt stand a chance against muu either 
.


> No it doesnt. The amount he has in Suna is ridiculous. Gaara has has already proven that he can outsmart someone even with oil. Jiraya's summons get destroyed. Jiraya goes down as well.


How do jiraiyas summons get destroyed, 
he simply slams them on gaara with food cart destroyer, and with oil and water to negate the sand surrounding gaara, just allows jiraiya to slam him with a rassengan, 


> MS Obito might win yes but it will be difficult. Yes he can phase through anything but Gaara can trick him  with a clone. He can surround himself with sand and trick Obito.


Nope, Obito would just go through his sand defense and approach him right up close and warp him, off, 
surrounding himself with sand isnt helping him, when obito can still just laugh at it with intangiblity and attack him up close to warp him off 



> Comfortably beat? No.
> Desert Gaara is around MS Obito in a desert
> But is above Ohnoki and Jiraya in a desert.
> 
> Normal terrain Gaara is around their level.


Nope, MS Obito is a good tier above desert Gaara, 
Onoki beats him mid diff at most, whereas jiraiya beats him due to a bad match up



Nikushimi said:


> *Sasori*, Deidara, Kisame, and *Orochimaru* would murder Gaara in a desert.


Sasori and orochimaru stand no chance against desert gaara at all, thats just pushing it


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> This isn't clear at all.


Neither is the power of the 3rd Kazekage.




> Jinchūriki and Tailed Beasts are considered weapons just like Satetsu is, therefore if everyone saw Gaara fight Deidara using the desert, and the attacks Gaara used in the war simply served to remind the Fourth Kazekage of the Shukaku so many people already knew about, yet Chiyo still stated that Satetsu was the most feared weapon in the village which is located in the desert after Sasori stated that it was what lead to his name as the most powerful of the Kazekages, then the Third Kazekage can naturally be expected more dangerous than Gaara in the desert.


How do we know that the person that stated the 3rd was stronger was watching? Just like you said strongest due to Iron Sand nothing else. The 3rd is featless. We have nothing to go on but some statement at the beginning of Part 2. Which is invalid.


> Also no, it wasn't stated before the fight, it was stated when Kankuro got mad at one of the advisors once Gaara had been captured. The guy who stated it started off with "we've faced a similar situation before"- the similarity being the defeat and abduction of a Kazekage. This was well after the battle.


Ok then my apologies.



> Really one might say that the only reason Deidara had to even resort to attacking the village was because he needed to capture Gaara alive and came into the fight ill-prepared.


Ok?




> don't remember him stating such a thing. And I don't remember him being outsmarted, I remember him incorrectly guesstimating Gaara's abilities; he underestimated how fast Gaara could work with his sand, not how tricky he was with it.


Read the fight again. He stated it.




> Your second sentence pretty much answers your own question.
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to see that Sasori threw that fight. It may have only been mentioned at the end, but you'd have to wonder why he ever quit using Satetsu Shigure in spite of the fact that he had just forced Chiyo to throw away each of her defenses just to survive the first couple sprays, because had he not he'd have killed them casually right then and there. Unless of course, he was tripping up from the moment he realized he was going to have to fight his grandma who had his mother and father puppets.


When did he say he threw the match? He was still beaten by 2jounin.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, and Orochimaru would murder Gaara in a desert.


Your hate is really showing. You know that's a lie. Everyone disagrees with you. You're wrong.





> Kisame in an ocean isn't hyped up nearly as much as Gaara in a desert, yet he is far more dangerous, and would certainly beat desert Gaara.


Kisame has zero feats in the ocean and would not beat Desert Gaara.


> He would also still lose to Itachi, which helps put desert Gaara into perspective...


That thread was made and once again you lost. Gaara no to low diffs him.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 10, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Umm, Ay was mid air, meaning that he was in free fall,
> in what world is that considered Ays speed?,
> and when sasuke managed to use enton before Ay landed is a clear indication that his speed was nowhere near,
> especially when we saw just a few pages before that V2 Ay laughed at a faster attack and blitzed Sasuke completely,


It was still quick and intercepted it. Look at that scan. The Raikage foot was like 1-3 away from landing yet Gaara's sand had enough power and strength to stop that. 
You act like he jumped in the air and had no power behind his kick. When you swing your leg down, you're going faster than just a free fall.



> although the gourd sand is faster, its no where near fast enough to catch V2 Ay,
> gaara being able to even track V2 Ay, when even the sharingan couldnt keep up is a mere speculation,


I never said it could but Gaara can most certainly defend from his attacks.



> Weighted boulder jutsu, makes all the surrounding completely heavyy to a point that it will be slow af, and the gourd sand isnt sufficient to catch Onoki either,
> furthermore Jinton is not getting coutnered by a sand clone at all,
> the jutsus wide AOE and power laughs at gaara and his defenses completely,


Not all the sand though. And Gaara won't let him do that. Why isn't his gourd sand sufficient enough? Gaara was able to ride on his sand as quick as Ohnoki.
A clone is most certainly plausible.



> gaara saving his ass from Muu, doesnt means that he is stronger than Onoki, since he doesnt stand a chance against muu either


He actually does stand a chance.



> How do jiraiyas summons get destroyed,
> he simply slams them on gaara with food cart destroyer, and with oil and water to negate the sand surrounding gaara, just allows jiraiya to slam him with a rassengan,


Gaara lifts his sand up from a kilometer away. One of the first moves he did to Deidara. Water doesn't affect his sand as showed in the combination attack of all 5 Kage.


> Nope, Obito would just go through his sand defense and approach him right up close and warp him, off,
> surrounding himself with sand isnt helping him, when obito can still just laugh at it with intangiblity and attack him up close to warp him off


Gaara is not being caught so easily by MS Obito in the air dude. Obito is going to have to work to get to Gaara.



> Nope, MS Obito is a good tier above desert Gaara,
> Onoki beats him mid diff at most, whereas jiraiya beats him due to a bad match up


Those are your opinions but by feats you are wrong.


Sasori and orochimaru stand no chance against desert gaara at all, thats just pushing it[/QUOTE]
Gaara beats them all in a desert.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Dec 11, 2014)

This is my ranking
1. MS Obito
2. Pain
3. Itachi
4. Jiraiya
5. Orochimaru
6. Tsunade
7. Gaara(desert)
8. Ohnoki
9. Ei
10. MS Sasuke
11. Sasori


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## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

just one question cuz i am really confused. i know kazekage answer i need everyone elses answer. 

was jouki boy running on sand and was it in a desert ?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

> his sand reacted to enton not amaterasu, there is a vast speed difference between the 2,
> and his sand didnt react to Ay at all, he was in mid air, which is clearly no where near his shunshin



The fatc he was in mid air doesnt change his speed. Many people here already explained that point. He was still in his fastest.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 11, 2014)

^
he wasn't using body flicker so no, he wasn't at his fastest


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## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

interception feats are hardly valid

that would make haku faster than kakashi, suigetsu faster than Ei, 6th gate lee faster than obito can kamui

that makes no sense at all and certainly wasn't portrayed that way 

if haku is faster than kakashi that automatically puts him at kage level which he is so far from being


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 11, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> just one question cuz i am really confused. i know kazekage answer i need everyone  elses answer.
> 
> was jouki boy running on sand and was it in a desert ?





If you scroll down past Shikamaru you see the setting.
Under that it clearly states "rocky barren terrain"

Then if you go a little further it said Gaara scattered a bit of sensing sand. The location wasn't fought ororiginally on a desert. Gaara grinded that sand first. It explains why he knew where Muu waswhen he fought his dad. It explains why he needed the Tsunami in the first place.

Nothing states that the location was a desert. Just because you can see sand on the ground doesn't exclude the fact that Gaara grinded it before hand. It doesn't automatically mean it started as a desert. There's your proof.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 11, 2014)

MS Obito
Pein
Itachi
MS Sasuke
Jiraiya 
Orochimaru / Tsunade
Onoki
Ei
Gaara
Sasori


Obito, Pein, Itachi, Sasuke and Jiraiya are all High-Kage level. Tsunade and Orochimaru are either bottom of the High-Kage tier or top of the Mid-Kage tier. The others are all Mid-Kage tier, with the exception of Sasori who is probably Low Kage tier.​​


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> he wasn't using body flicker so no, he wasn't at his fastest



He used V2 Armor to be at his top speed to break Sasuke's Susanoo.


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## Icegaze (Dec 12, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> If you scroll down past Shikamaru you see the setting.
> Under that it clearly states "rocky barren terrain"
> 
> Then if you go a little further it said Gaara scattered a bit of sensing sand. The location wasn't fought ororiginally on a desert. Gaara grinded that sand first. It explains why he knew where Muu waswhen he fought his dad. It explains why he needed the Tsunami in the first place.
> ...



my question was 
was jouki boy runnign on sand. look at the scans and tell me its not sand

the edo kages were standing on sand

it doesnt matter if he grinded it before hand or not. the fact is he tsumadi the place into a sand terrain and that did not give him the ability to simply bury all the kages 

like u think he can.

even in part 1 after he transformed the place into a desert against kimi. when kimi went cs2 he didnt simply bury him again with another tsunami or catch him easily. my point mainly is, fighting on sand or not doesnt change anything. he can grind sand and transform the terrain at will. same for kisame, 
unless u think kisame is stronger when there is a body of water around. 

him and gaara are landscape changers. that doesnt suddenly mean when the landscape changes that they climb up a tier. those gaara can beat with his gourd sand he will with desert sand. those he cant simply just crush with gourd sand he wont be able to simply tsunami

please note despite the huge tsunami gaara can create, he didnt simply think let me do that and bury a V3 susanoo. he considered pulling madara out of it.


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## Icegaze (Dec 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> MS Obito
> Pein
> Itachi
> MS Sasuke
> ...



impeccable list. 
those above oro can all deal with ET. seriously decent list. though i would replace onoki with tsunade on ur list. she cannot deal with jinton
none of her jutsu are on that level


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 12, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> my question was
> was jouki boy runnign on sand. look at the scans and tell me its not sand
> 
> the edo kages were standing on sand
> ...



No you claimed it was a desert I disagreed that was the argument. The desert has way more sand. I was just trying to say that Gaara grinded that sand dude.

And yes landscape does matter. 
If Gaara was fight in indoors it's not the same as outside. Gaara has to work a bit more outside of a desert terrain (since he has to grind it)

Gaara was running out of chakra in that fight. He didn't want to spawn another Tsunami, even though he could have. He needed to sink Kimimaro. 

He didn't bury Susanoo because there were other people around. His sand attacks have a pretty big AoE. In doing so he could hurt his fellow Ninja. 

If he fights in a desert then he can easily overpower and take out his enemies. In a normal terrain he has to work a bit more that's why he jumps up a tier because of how much power he has at the start.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Dec 12, 2014)

Pain
Itachi
MS Sasuke
Orochimaru
Gaara in desert
Sasori
Jiraiya
raikage
Onoki
Tsunade
Gaara in the forest, plains, mountains & coastlines


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Rank these characters
> 
> Ei
> Ohnoki
> ...




Itachi / Pain

Obito / MS Sasuke

Onoki / A

Oro / Jman 

Sasori / Gaara

Tsunade


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 12, 2014)

Why do people rank Sasori higher than some of the Gokage? He can only beat Mei probably. 
Sasori normally starts in Hiruko which is a huge disadvantage.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 12, 2014)

Written by Kishi:



Itachi says he can counter Kamui after seeing it for a second.

And then Obito flees like a pussy Abra.


----------



## Veo (Dec 13, 2014)

Pain/Obito
Ohnoki
Gaara (desert)
Jiraiya
Ei/Itachi/Sasuke
Orochimaru
Tsunade/Sasori

Pain and Obito are definitely the strongest and can beat anyone on the list.
Ohnoki can casually one shot anyone bar Pain/Obito
Gaara flight + desert gives him a huge advantage. Powerful attack and defense 
Jiraiya is extremely versatile, has summons and a good array of techniques
Ei is super fast, super strong, super durable and has a very large chakra pool
Itachi has a few deadly techniques and is an outstanding fighter overall
Sasuke similar to Itachi
Orochimaru is very versatile, extremely durable and has a good variety of techinques. Kusanagi is dangerous
Tsunade is the physically strongest of the list and she has amazing regen skills, but relies too much on CQC
Sasori is dangerous and very difficult to deal with, but it happens that the rest of the guys on this list have good counters to his techniques

I don't like this kind of lists because we should consider many factors. For example: Ohnoki can jinton anyone but he has no counter to tsukuyomi and can be overwhelmed by Gaara's sand in a desert. Itachi is deadly, but he cannot cope with Ei's speed, something Sasuke managed to do by coating his susanoo with enton. Also Gaara has hard counters to Itachi/Sasuke in a desert. Sasori can easily overwhelm his enemies from different angles, but Ei shits on his puppets anytime, etc. I guess you get the idea.

Many people like to do tier lists and stuff, but they are all unfair/inaccurate in many cases since some characters lower in the list just counter some others on top. I remember how strong Kisame was, he could definitely beat most of akatsuki and many kage, however Gai stomped him twice.


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## Puppetry (Dec 13, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Why do people rank Sasori higher than some of the Gokage? He can only beat Mei probably.
> Sasori normally starts in Hiruko which is a huge disadvantage.



Sasori has Iron-clad portrayal that is rarely adequately addressed. You're going to have to do a lot more than name-dropping Suckura to shake the perception that he's powerful.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2014)

MS Obito
Pain
Gaara(desert)
MS Sasuke
Onoki
Itachi
Jiraiya
Orochimaru - If you dont count the 4 hokage
Tsunade
Ei
Sasori

This is not a who can beat who list. ie: Onoki would probably defeat Gaara in the desert simply due to flight & Jinton bypassing the sand


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## ARGUS (Dec 13, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> MS Obito
> Pain
> Gaara(desert)
> *MS Sasuke*
> ...



Whhy is sasuke that much higher than itachi? 
why is gaara above onoki, when has nothing on jinton at all, 
and Ay should be above orochimaru, and tsunade, 
overall he is well above them


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 13, 2014)

Don't ask him questions he can't answer.

He, most of the time, has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to ranking shinobi. Although that list isn't his best piece of work. I've seen alot worse.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Whhy is sasuke that much higher than itachi?
> why is gaara above onoki, when has nothing on jinton at all,
> and Ay should be above orochimaru, and tsunade,
> overall he is well above them



Good point was thinking EMS Sasuke even though i typed MS
Gaara in the desert is well beyond onoki in terms of overall ability simply due to location. However as I stated Onoki still beats Gaara in a fight. Take Gaara out of the desert then onoki outclasses him greatly
Ei is a joke. One dimensional overhyped joke. Hell Mei did better then Raikage in the war arc


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Don't ask him questions he can't answer.
> 
> He, most of the time, has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to ranking shinobi. Although that list isn't his best piece of work. I've seen alot worse.



Coming from one of the biggest trolls this forum has ever seen. I wouldn't debate neiter when you have been torn apart numerous times years ago. Glad you gave that up ahwhile ago



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi / Pain
> 
> Obito / MS Sasuke
> 
> ...



And you want to talk about bad lists. This is possibly  one of the worse lists in this thread and you wonder why no one takes you seriously


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## Bonly (Dec 13, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> and Ay should be above orochimaru, and tsunade,
> overall he is well above them



I wouldn't say that at all. Orochi can use all five of the basic elements(from the DB I hear), has Edo Tensei, has his weird as body which allows him to be cut in half and be completely fine as he put himself back together with a smile on his face(not to mention giving no fucks when his arm has been ripped off), a big and fast boss summon as well as multiple snakes which can be used as meat shields as well as snakes that can spit out swords and are poisonous, Oral rebirth to create a new body freed of injuries which he can use after it seems like he is/was dead, he has a shit ton of knowledge, he has his true white snake form ontop of all that with a poison to help put people down, And he has his Yamata(or whatever it's called) form among a few other things. A may be strong but he isn't "well above" Orochi at all.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

Sasori should be last if anything
All these characters thrash him. 
He has the worst portrayal. His abilities are impressive but he isn't that strong.


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## Icegaze (Dec 14, 2014)

Well true the only person sasori can take is Mei
Everyone else floors him 
as for this gaara in a desert >>> gaara out of it 
I find it hilarious considering even as a Genin he could change the battlefield in seconds 
So no desert or not he still is nothing to onoki and yes you don't like it but he still will loose to itachi

Desert did not help him against susanoo clones or madara or jouki boy


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## LostSelf (Dec 14, 2014)

Pain
Obito/Itachi
MS Sasuke.
Jiraiya
Onoki
Tsunade
Ei
Gaara
I am really doubtful about where to put Sasori. The guy has a lot of hype, but not enough feats to back it up. So i will leave him out as i am not sure. Gaara in the desert is a bit confusing to me, though. I can say he beats a lot of people lifting his arms, trapping the enemy in the sand coming from his feets and crushing/Crushing then sealing if the enemy is very resilient like Ei/Tsunade.

The thing is that, i do think he beats Tsunade in the desert, but not the others. Ei can chop through his sand with lighting, Itachi/Sasuke can bust it with Susano'o, Onoki can bust it with Jinton (unless Gaara traps his hands, something very likely, though), Pain can bust it with Shinra Tensei, etc.

And glad to see people still putting Itachi on Pain/Nagato level .


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## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Pain
> Obito/Itachi
> MS Sasuke.
> Jiraiya
> ...



Ei can? Are there any feats to suggest such a thing? 

And how can Tsunade beat him even out of the desert?


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 14, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Why do people rank Sasori higher than some of the Gokage? He can only beat Mei probably.



Sasori would slaughter Mei. He'd also beat Tsunade, Gaara, and Oonoki, thanks in large part to the 3rd Kazekage's Satetsu.



> Sasori normally starts in Hiruko which is a huge disadvantage.



Sasori can exit Hiruko any time, and we saw in the manga that it provides an excellent buffer against opening attacks.



Ennoia said:


> Under what stipulations? Id figure Gaara would be one of the worst opponents for Sasori in a desert of all places.



Poisoned Satetsu spike through his sand and into his brain. GG.



Kazekage94 said:


> Your hate is really showing. You know that's a lie. Everyone disagrees with you. You're wrong.



You can parrot this all you like but I don't see you providing any reasoning why that's the case.



> Kisame has zero feats in the ocean and would not beat Desert Gaara.



Kisame had his last fight with Gai in the ocean and he would slaughter Gaara even on dry land (because he can turn that into an ocean). One Daikoudan and all the chakra from Gaara's sand is sapped and used to fuel the Jutsu before it smashes into him.



> That thread was made and once again you lost. Gaara no to low diffs him.



I never made an Itachi vs. Kisame in the ocean thread, and even if I did, there's no way I would "lose" because everybody knows Itachi would beat Kisame. 

And Kisame would beat Gaara, as I said.

So yeah, Itachi outclasses Gaara completely.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Well true the only person sasori can take is Mei
> Everyone else floors him
> as for this gaara in a desert >>> gaara out of it
> I find it hilarious considering even as a Genin he could change the battlefield in seconds
> ...



Yes he is dude
Ohnoki is strong yes but all of the arguements are Jinton GG.
If you think that A is the only one who stands a chance you are gladly mistaken. 

Desert Gaara is more capable to beating opponents then Ohnoki
Like Gaara cant swap a clone. It's that easy. Jinton has a charge time. Against Lee, despite his speedGaara was able to slip a clone in to save him. 

Ohnoki needs knowledge to use Jinton. 
If you people can say that, then that means at 10 meters he can beat fucking Hashirama. 

Desert can moe than benefit Gaara from Susanoo users. He can block strikes and his shield tanked Joki Boys explosions. 
As i explained before Gaara needed to mix his gold dust. That's why he was stalling. Then right after he did it, he caught Joki Boy. So your information is just wrong.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

The thread was Gaara vs Itachi Desert Gaara and the only ones who sided with you are your Itachi lovers
Nuetral people even said Gaara.

As for Sasori. Tsunade fucks him up. She's too much for him of he starts in Hiruko. 
Ohnoki stomps him. Remember Jinton GG right? And Sasori doesn't have clones. 
Sasori can't control the 3 rd Kazekage bettee than the 3rd Kazekage. 
Anyone of these people beats Sasori. Doesn't sand render puppets useless?

Sasori vs Gaara would result in Gaara winning. If Sasori starts in Hiruko he gets fucked
if he starts with the 3rd out, there might be some problems but not that many. 
Fucking Sakura was able to react to his Iron Sand. 

The Kazekage can keep up with Ohnoki on his sand, Sasori won't be a problem.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 14, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The thread was Gaara vs Itachi Desert Gaara and the only ones who sided with you are your Itachi lovers
> Nuetral people even said Gaara.



Then those "neutral people" were wrong. 

It's that simple.

Gaara in a desert lost to gimped Deidara. Itachi would wreck him. But people are too easily impressed by seeing how much sand Gaara can move, without actually considering the fact that there's not much he can do with it. He has close to no offensive power for a shinobi in his tier and his speed is less than admirable, while his enormous stamina is offset by the quantity of chakra he has to burn in order to simply lift that much sand. Gaara's strength is his defense, but he can't hold it forever.



> As for Sasori. Tsunade fucks him up. She's too much for him of he starts in Hiruko.



If he starts in Hiruko, Tsunade will just break it open and he will jump out the back.



> Ohnoki stomps him. Remember Jinton GG right?



Heart canister ejection. Once Oonoki thinks he has won, a fodder puppet with Sasori's heart stabs him in the back.

GG.



> And Sasori doesn't have clones.
> Sasori can't control the 3 rd Kazekage bettee than the 3rd Kazekage.



Sasori was able to control the 3rd Kazekage without any apparent trouble, and he even poisoned the Satetsu. 



> Anyone of these people beats Sasori. Doesn't sand render puppets useless?



Sasori could render puppets useless with Satetsu; if he can control it that precisely, he might just be able to dislodge any sand particles--although, he can also certainly take his puppet joints apart and put them back together.



> Sasori vs Gaara would result in Gaara winning. If Sasori starts in Hiruko he gets fucked
> if he starts with the 3rd out, there might be some problems but not that many.



Gaara doesn't even have an easy way of breaking Hiruko; unless he goes for the sealing pyramid immediately, Sasori's in no danger.

Gaara had a somewhat difficult time defeating the 4th Kazekage; no way is he beating two people even stronger (Sasori+3rd).



> Fucking Sakura was able to react to his Iron Sand.



So what? Sakura actually trained for evasion and movement reading, and was a physically-oriented shinobi even back at the start of Part II. None of that is true for Gaara.



> The Kazekage can keep up with Ohnoki on his sand, Sasori won't be a problem.



Oonoki is only as fast as Deidara, who admitted Sasori was stronger than him.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 14, 2014)

Tsunade would blast Sasori to bits if she struck Hiruko while he was still inside.



Kazekage94 said:


> Neither is the power of the 3rd Kazekage.



....Then it can't be clear that Gaara has surpassed him like you originally tried to claim.



> How do we know that the person that stated the 3rd was stronger was watching?



I would just assume such because a village spanning sky battle with sand waves and giant explosives is pretty hard to miss for like...anyone. I bet blind and deaf people knew what was going on when the village started quaking and lighting up.



> Just like you said strongest due to Iron Sand nothing else.



Well it was said to be "one of" 3KKs original Jutsu, but...he has the Iron Sand, and even if he was stronger only due to that one skill it doesn't change the fact that he was still stronger nonetheless. It might also be worth considering that this was prior to Sasori deciding to drench it in poison.

Gaara managing to take his father by surprise in spite of the Gold Dust doesn't mean anything since the Iron Sand is superior to the Gold Dust anyway.



> The 3rd is featless. We have nothing to go on but some statement at the beginning of Part 2. Which is invalid.



Elaborate on why that statement is invalid.



> Read the fight again. He stated it.



He stated that he had surpassed him, not that he had done it long ago.



> When did he say he threw the match? He was still beaten by 2jounin.



Chiyo said it, and if he threw it then it doesn't matter who it was he threw it to, he was still going to lose.

Itachi could in theory throw a match to Konohamaru.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

Strength and speed are 2 totally different things.

Minato is fast as shit but Tsunade still loses even though shes 100 times stronger

And no, you were wrong. Deidara had one big advantage. Flight. Ground characters get shit stomped. Gaara lifts the platform and Itachi dies from the fall.
It's that simple.

If he jumped out the back, she's still going to attack him dude. She'll break his heart. Literally.

Sasori was only shown to switch his hearts when the other puppets were out. If he starts with The 3rd then he will still get Jinton'd

I don't remember Sakura ever being trained in evasion.

Gaara can sink Sasori. Needles won't work. He beat his father with no difficulty. He had his plan set.

If the others are too fast for Sasori, then how is Sasori winning. 

On top of that it isnt Sasori and the 3rd, its Sasori controlling the 3rd. Iron sand is slow as fuck. Part 2 Sakura was slow as well.

Just because you admit inferiority doesn't mean you are.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade would blast Sasori to bits if she struck Hiruko while he was still inside.


True



> ....Then it can't be clear that Gaara has surpassed him like you originally tried to claim.


Well by feats he's above him
By portrayal, hes above him.

I would just assume such because a village spanning sky battle with sand waves and giant explosives is pretty hard to miss for like...anyone. I bet blind and deaf people knew what was going on when the village started quaking and lighting up.[/QUOTE]
Well what if they were hiding you know it was am Akatsuki attack. Why wouldn't they hide? The only ones who were watching were the comrades and soldiers. At least that was shown in the manga.




> Well it was said to be "one of" 3KKs original Jutsu, but...he has the Iron Sand, and even if he was stronger only due to that one skill it doesn't change the fact that he was still stronger nonetheless. It might also be worth considering that this was prior to Sasori deciding to drench it in poison.


Dude we have no feats. He just had Iron Sand which is strong than normal sand. That's the only evidence we have.


> Gaara managing to take his father by surprise in spite of the Gold Dust doesn't mean anything since the Iron Sand is superior to the Gold Dust anyway.


It doesn't matter he still beat him no difficulty. 



> Elaborate on why that statement is invalid.


Because we have nothing, I mean nothing to go by. The only thing is the Iron Sand
Yet Gold was better than sand and sand was able to win.
That was the beginning of Part 2 and we are past that.
He has no feats. He himself. It wasn't stated that he had better tactics intelligence or anything.





> He stated that he had surpassed him, not that he had done it long ago.


Scan?




> Chiyo said it, and if he threw it then it doesn't matter who it was he threw it to, he was still going to lose.


Chiyo said it. Not Sasori. We don't know if it was true or not.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 14, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Well by feats he's above him



We're allowed to use more than feats last time I checked.



> By portrayal, hes above him.



No he isn't.

Gaara becoming ambiguously stronger by the time of the war arc and defeating a weaker Kazekage does not give us a reason to think he is stronger than the Third Kazekage, and certainly not a reason to think that he's stronger by such a wide margin that he's even more powerful than the dude who killed the Third Kazekage _before_ adding his signature Jutsu to his own collection.



> Well what if they were hiding you know it was am Akatsuki attack. Why wouldn't they hide? The only ones who were watching were the comrades and soldiers. At least that was shown in the manga.



Advisors are ninjas, not the civilians being evacuated by the medical corps.

People not in the medical corps were supposed to consider a contingency plan in the event that Shukaku ran loose. Guess who was the most concerned about Shukaku? The advisors. It'd make sense that they were watching; more sense than not at least.



> It doesn't matter he still beat him no difficulty.



Which is irrelevant for reasons previously mentioned.

I'd hardly call that a "no difficulty" win, though, since he won due to Rasa not expecting him to work with his sand so fast and not paying attention to his feet as a result. He'd have been in for more of a challenge had his father known he could do that and just levitated a few feet off of the ground on a sand cloud.



> The only thing is the Iron Sand
> Yet Gold was better than sand and sand was able to win.
> That was the beginning of Part 2 and we are past that.



That doesn't render the statement invalid.

Iron Sand > Gold Dust > Sand.

Gaara managing to overcome the advantage his father had with Gold Dust =/= Gaara being stronger than the Third Kazekage, let alone evidence for Gaara being stronger than Sasori who can wield the Third Kazekage's powers now cloaked in poison in addition to his own powers that are apparently already sufficient to kill said Kazekage.



> It wasn't stated that he had better tactics intelligence or anything.



It doesn't need to be. We're just talking about general threat levels.



> Scan?



Uh..._you_ were the first one to reference the statement, not me?



> Chiyo said it. Not Sasori. We don't know if it was true or not.



Why would we not assume that it's true, especially given Sasori's behavior earlier on in the fight as I pointed out, until something comes along to actually contradict it?


----------



## Ersa (Dec 14, 2014)

This is like watching the Yankees play a high school B team.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> We're allowed to use more than feats last time I checked.


That doesn't change the fact that by Feata, Gaara is above him.


> he isn't.
> 
> Gaara becoming ambiguously stronger by the time of the war arc and defeating a weaker Kazekage does not give us a reason to think he is stronger than the Third Kazekage, and certainly not a reason to think that he's stronger by such a wide margin that he's even more powerful than the dude who killed the Third Kazekage _before_ adding his signature Jutsu to his own collection.


We don't even know how powerful the 3rd is.
The 3rd has nothing to suggest that he is above Gaara.


> Advisors are ninjas, not the civilians being evacuated by the medical corps.
> 
> People not in the medical corps were supposed to consider a contingency plan in the event that Shukaku ran loose. Guess who was the most concerned about Shukaku? The advisors. It'd make sense that they were watching; more sense than not at least.


Well we have no proof. That's just your theory. If the manga didn't show it then it's invalid.






> Which is irrelevant for reasons previously mentioned.
> 
> I'd hardly call that a "no difficulty" win, though, since he won due to Rasa not expecting him to work with his sand so fast and not paying attention to his feet as a result. He'd have been in for more of a challenge had his father known he could do that and just levitated a few feet off of the ground on a sand cloud.


Show me one sign if struggle, Gaara had. Oh that's right. He didn't. That's his own fault. 
You're just making up excuses as to why he lost. That's fine and all but hey Gaara still no dif him.




> That doesn't render the statement invalid.
> 
> Iron Sand > Gold Dust > Sand.
> 
> Gaara managing to overcome the advantage his father had with Gold Dust =/= Gaara being stronger than the Third Kazekage, let alone evidence for Gaara being stronger than Sasori who can wield the Third Kazekage's powers now cloaked in poison in addition to his own powers that are apparently already sufficient to kill said Kazekage.


You're arguement is Iron Sand > Sand. But so what? I was merely stating that Gaara had beaten something that is apparently better than his sand. So that makes your arguement off.



> It doesn't need to be. We're just talking about general threat levels.


But we have nothing to go by. 




> Uh..._you_ were the first one to reference the statement, not me?


First doesn't matter. If you were correct, then show the scan.





> Why would we not assume that it's true, especially given Sasori's behavior earlier on in the fight as I pointed out, until something comes along to actually contradict it?


Are you trying to say?

Chiyo and Sakura > Sasori > 3rd Kazekage > Gaara
Sasori is one of the weakest of the Akatsuki. He was beaten by two jounin. 
Unless you have proof of him throwing the fight then he didnt


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 14, 2014)

At the end of the day, 3rd Kazekage is featless and that was a statement in Part 2 yet we have nothing to go by.

Gaara is above Sasori in feats and portrayal.


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## Puppetry (Dec 14, 2014)

That has always been the key issue with the anti-Sasori mentality; you have to go around ignoring this and ignoring that because what was stated clashes with your own perceptions. There is no ambiguity concerning the ranking of the Sandaime Kazekage, which gives us a clear base to form opinions on Sasori. Any argument using a cherry-picked version of _any_ character is fundamentally flawed.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 15, 2014)

Sasori has very impressive hype given that Deidara admitted inferiority to him before Kakashi yet believed himself capable of killing Orochimaru (and seemingly, Onoki and Itachi.)

That, plus he killed the strongest Kazekage before adding that Kages power to his own, and drenching it in paralyzing poison. He's also exceptionally intelligent, even by genius standards.​


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## Ennoia (Dec 15, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori has very impressive hype given that Deidara admitted inferiority to him before Kakashi yet believed himself capable of killing Orochimaru (and seemingly, Onoki and Itachi.)​



Deidara has consistently shown himself to be overconfident, him believing himself capable of doing something does not reflect on Sasori's hype at all. Once Onoki pulled out Jinton Deidara ran, Deidara was fooled by Sasuke's genjutsu and was one shot by Itachi's, he never actually admitted to being able to kill Oro he only said he wanted to, plus he clearly had no idea what Oro was capable of. Not to mention Sasuke beat Deidara yet admitted he only beat Oro because he was sick. Lets be fair here.



> That, plus he killed the strongest Kazekage before adding that Kages power to his own, and drenching it in paralyzing poison. He's also exceptionally intelligent, even by genius standards.


He beat the Kazekage under unknown circumstances. As an example, Kisame said whoever beat Oro must have been really strong but because he didnt know the circumstances he assumed Sasuke was stronger than he actually was. Another example is Suigetsu claiming Sasuke killed Zabuza when we know he didnt.

He certainly is a genius and also very strong, but dont hype him beyond his level.​


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## Puppetry (Dec 15, 2014)

He may have defeated the Kazekage under unknown circumferences, but the databook stated it was a 'painstaking' effort, which again points to his superior skill and power rather than slipping some poison in a doughnut.


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## Ennoia (Dec 15, 2014)

That is very vague and hardly means anything because of that very fact. He could have chopped off one of the Kazekage's arms when he wasnt looking and it still took him painstaking effort to win. Painstaking effort could have been implementing an intricate plan and not direct combat. We dont even know for certain that Sasori is stronger than the Kazekage only that he killed him.


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## Puppetry (Dec 15, 2014)

> Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his painstakingly defeated opponent, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart.



It is quite clear that a difficult battle occurred between the two and Sasori won. And, based on that, we can infer that Sasori is comparable to the Sandaime Kazekage - if not stronger.

Sure, we don't have precise details. But it's one thing to acknowledge that fact and another to directly oppose what we know with comparisons to Sasuke and Zabuza.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 15, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> It is quite clear that a difficult battle occurred between the two and Sasori won. And, based on that, we can infer that Sasori is comparable to the Sandaime Kazekage - if not stronger.
> 
> Sure, we don't have precise details. But it's one thing to acknowledge that fact and another to directly oppose what we know with comparisons to Sasuke and Zabuza.



To think that since he beat one he can beat the other is outrageous. We all know that is Sasori was in Deidaras position, Sasori would have gotten stomped by Gaara. 

It's not like the 3rd Kazekage is actually fighting when Sasori controls him.


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## Puppetry (Dec 15, 2014)

Sasori bested an indisputably superior Kazekage and created a hitokugutsu from his corpse; had roughly twenty years to master Satetsu and outfit the Sandaime with weapons and yet it's outrageous to presume he can defeat Gaara? 

I think I'm very reasonable here. I've supported my points with more than a raised eyebrow.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 15, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> Sasori bested an indisputably superior Kazekage and created a hitokugutsu from his corpse; had roughly twenty years to master Satetsu and outfit the Sandaime with weapons and yet it's outrageous to presume he can defeat Gaara?
> 
> I think I'm very reasonable here. I've supported my points with more than a raised eyebrow.



You shouldn't powerscale. The only thing we know about the 3rd was Iron Sand, but that doesn't make someone stronger tf?

Gaara has better feats than Sasori and the 3rd Kazekage
In a desert location Sasori gets sealed or slips sand into the puppet and destroys his heart. 

Gaara can evade everything Sasori has. This is outrageous you actually think Sasori can beat Gaara.


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## Ennoia (Dec 15, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> It is quite clear that a difficult battle occurred between the two and Sasori won. And, based on that, we can infer that Sasori is comparable to the Sandaime Kazekage - if not stronger.
> 
> Sure, we don't have precise details. But it's one thing to acknowledge that fact and another to directly oppose what we know with comparisons to Sasuke and Zabuza.



Your ignoring the point here, your're using an ambiguous situation to power scale. As I said before, technically Sasuke beat Oro after a tough fight but we know he wasnt above Oro. You're reading too much into that statement. In this situation its best to just use straight up feats.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> Sasori bested an indisputably superior Kazekage and created a hitokugutsu from his corpse; had roughly twenty years to master Satetsu and outfit the Sandaime with weapons and yet it's outrageous to presume he can defeat Gaara?
> 
> I think I'm very reasonable here. I've supported my points with more than a raised eyebrow.



Since when characters statements and hype are good enough to think one is clearly superior to the other? What feats Third Kazekage has? 

And another quastion - how Sasori managed to kill him? We dont know the detailes of that, am i right?


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## Puppetry (Dec 15, 2014)

I see no issue with powerscaling when statements provided make it exceptionally easy to do so in no uncertain terms. What I see here is the misuse of ambiguity to disregard tiers that people dislike.

As a sidenote, there was nothing 'tough' about Sasuke's battle with Orochimaru at all. That was a decisive victory in Sasuke's favor, with crystal-clear explanations for why that was so. There weren't any hints of this concerning the Sandaime, and the bewilderment of Sunagakure's elders certainly implies he wasn't some lame-duck waiting to be captured. 



StarWanderer said:


> Since when characters statements and hype are good enough to think one is clearly superior to the other?



Different posters have different mentalities. I am of the opinion that character statements and hype have always been good enough, as they are, in instances such as these, much more clear-cut than feats, where there is leeway for interpretation.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> I see no issue with powerscaling when statements provided make it exceptionally easy to do so in no uncertain terms. What I see here is the misuse of ambiguity to disregard tiers that people dislike.
> 
> As a sidenote, there was nothing 'tough' about Sasuke's battle with Orochimaru at all. That was a decisive victory in Sasuke's favor, with crystal-clear explanations for why that was so. There weren't any hints of this concerning the Sandaime, and the bewilderment of Sunagakure's elders certainly implies he wasn't some lame-duck waiting to be captured.



Characters can be wrong. Hype and characters statements prove nothing at all.


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## LostSelf (Dec 15, 2014)

Come on guys. If a character is said to be that strong, there's no need to say much. The only thing we can say about that is that War-Arc Gaara improved and that statement would now be wrong, and it can be debated from that part.

But Sasori being above beggining of part 2 Gaara is not debatable.

Even then, i honestly don't see Sasori beating Gaara the way he fought Deidara by pure feats, though.


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## Puppetry (Dec 15, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Characters can be wrong. Hype and characters statements prove nothing at all.





> [Sandaime Kazekage]
> Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the *strongest* would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his painstakingly defeated opponent, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart. Exactly like a child getting ahold of the best toy ever...



That is from the databook, which Kishimoto wrote. 

Besides, you have to have some reason to question character statements. Why would Chiyo and a village elder both _lie_ about the Sandaime's power?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 15, 2014)

Gaara can beat Sasori, but has to do it really quick if the Kazekage comes out.


I have a very high opinion of Sasori. He is one of the most intelligent and skilled ninja there has been. Not even Kankurou ever exceeded his abilities(who through portrayal was the next great puppeteer...lol). In the narutoverse he was an extremely feared shinobi(if you knew of him). His human puppeteer is downright amazing(and you can't argue it) and could effectively take certain KGs users and use them to their fullest abilities.

He also aswell beat the Kazekage which had a lot of hype behind him. The entire sand village hailed him as a Hero/God, and was thrown into discord after his disappearance. And its general consensus that he was above Gaaras father in terms of power.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Pain
> Obito/Itachi
> Sasuke
> Sannin
> ...




what this man said


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 16, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> That is from the databook, which Kishimoto wrote.
> 
> Besides, you have to have some reason to question character statements. Why would Chiyo and a village elder both _lie_ about the Sandaime's power?




We aren't saying they were lying but that was at the beginning of Part 2. 
He was only said to be stronger because of his Iron Sand. But having that doesn't make you stronger.

He is featless. Gaara by feats and portrayal is the most powerful Kazekage. 
You dude just need to stop. With no feats to back that up you have nothing.


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## Puppetry (Dec 16, 2014)

Exactly. The Sandaime Kazekage was praised as the strongest because of Satetsu; Sasori demonstrated mastery of the very technique that granted him a superlative label. Thus, Sasori is superior to the Kazekage.

We're going in circles here. My arguments are very reasonable and are built upon straightforward statements. Until you have something other than disbelief to show me, that isn't going to change.


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## Rain (Dec 16, 2014)

Itachi was above everyone by a fair margin because neither Obito nor Pain dared to attack Konoha while he was alive. They knew they didn't have a chance in a fair battle against someone of his caliber.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 16, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> Exactly. The Sandaime Kazekage was praised as the strongest because of Satetsu; Sasori demonstrated mastery of the very technique that granted him a superlative label. Thus, Sasori is superior to the Kazekage.
> 
> We're going in circles here. My arguments are very reasonable and are built upon straightforward statements. Until you have something other than disbelief to show me, that isn't going to change.



How does mastery over a technique make you better than Gaara?
Sasori can't easily use Iron Sand like Gaara can easily use Sand. Gaara has a mastery over his technique. 
Gaara's scale of attacks are larger than anything Sasori has shown.
Gaara has proved to be the superior Shinobi of the 2.

While Sasori struggled against Chiyo and Sakura Gaara could mop the floor with them at Part 2.

The onlyhype that Sasori has is that he beat a featless 3rd Kazekage. We don't know how he won or anything. You have nothing.

Gold Dust  was better than Sand but Gaara won so I can say that he has the intelligence and capabilities to deal with Iron Sand.

Iron Sand is slower than Sand. The things Sasori showed can't hold a candle to Gaara's feats.

Gaara
Commander of an Army
Defeated the 2nd Mizukage and Joki Boy
Defeated his father with no difficulty
Showed intelligence and good tactics in the war.

Gaara has actual feats on panel while the 3rd has none. 

Sasori lost to 2 jounin twice. 

Now tell me who has the better portrayal?


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## Icegaze (Dec 17, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Yes he is dude
> Ohnoki is strong yes but all of the arguements are Jinton GG.
> If you think that A is the only one who stands a chance you are gladly mistaken.
> 
> ...



He needs knowledge to use Jinton is a BS excuse 
Why would he not have knowledge on a Kage 
Gaara needs knowledge to fight defensively and swap out with clones 
Jinton GG mate
It's a perfectly valid argument 
Creating a tsunami has charge time to 
In a panel Jinton leveled flower tree world 

As I have said before if gaara could care jouki boy without harming others he would have 
Watching people die to come up with  a plan. To slow jouki boy die doesn't in any way show he could have done in otherwise 

Why use gold dust on it if his regular sand could have caught it ??? Think logically


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 17, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> He needs knowledge to use Jinton is a BS excuse
> Why would he not have knowledge on a Kage
> Gaara needs knowledge to fight defensively and swap out with clones
> Jinton GG mate
> ...



He needs knowledge to use it right away.
Gaara is intelligent enough to send a clone out on a Kage level opponent. 

I told you before, sand wasn't enough. Joki Boy blew the pyramid up, Gold Dust was the only way to officially stop him without Gaara harming his comrades. 
Read the fight again dude.


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## Icegaze (Dec 17, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> He needs knowledge to use it right away.
> Gaara is intelligent enough to send a clone out on a Kage level opponent.
> 
> I told you before, sand wasn't enough. Joki Boy blew the pyramid up, Gold Dust was the only way to officially stop him without Gaara harming his comrades.
> Read the fight again dude.



Onoki is intelligent enough to use Jinton GG against a Kage level opponent BS reasoning on your part 

why want sand enough ??? Was jouki boy too fast ? If it was cuz it could escape the sand when caught then why even attempt to catch it with it? 

If so how on earth does gaara catch someone like Ei

Think dude 

Gaara can't compete with either onoki or Ei

Onoki has always used Jinton when he has enough chakra to do it 

In no situation would he not start with that against gaara


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 17, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Onoki is intelligent enough to use Jinton GG against a Kage level opponent BS reasoning on your part
> 
> why want sand enough ??? Was jouki boy too fast ? If it was cuz it could escape the sand when caught then why even attempt to catch it with it?
> 
> ...



Then Ohnoki can beat Hashirama then by your logic. 
Sand wasn't enough because the 2nd Mizukage used Joki Boy to get out of the pyramid. Joki boy blew up. Gaara had to think of a way without being reckless. 

Funny how when Gaara finally mixed the gold dust he was able to catch him right?
Gaara can fly on par with Ohnoki.

I never said he can catch Ei. Maybe he can if Ei slips up. 
Ei can't bypass Gaara's defenses.


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## Icegaze (Dec 18, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Then Ohnoki can beat Hashirama then by your logic.
> Sand wasn't enough because the 2nd Mizukage used Joki Boy to get out of the pyramid. Joki boy blew up. Gaara had to think of a way without being reckless.
> 
> Funny how when Gaara finally mixed the gold dust he was able to catch him right?
> ...



Wood dragon trolls Jinton it absorbs ninjutsu
lol awww your silly 
My logic is gaara isn't fast enough to stop Jinton  and cannot tank it therefore he looses 
While itachi cannot tank it he has 2 or more Jutsu which are fast enough to stop it 

Gaara wasn't able to catch jouki boy 
Jouki boy hit a gold dust clone the sand then got on jouki boy 

Why can't Ei with speed by pass gaara defense 
His defense is sand if the sand can't keep up what is defending him ?
See lee vs gaara 
Same thing would happen if they fought 
Only difference is Ei would punch a hole in gaara unless U believe gaara sand armor >>>>CS2 skin


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 18, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> Exactly. The Sandaime Kazekage was praised as the strongest because of Satetsu; Sasori demonstrated mastery of the very technique that granted him a superlative label. Thus, Sasori is superior to the Kazekage.
> 
> We're going in circles here. My arguments are very reasonable and are built upon straightforward statements. Until you have something other than disbelief to show me, that isn't going to change.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that Sandaime Kazekage is stronger than Gaara? I think it is fairly safe to assume that Gaara is about a tier stronger than his predecessor, all things considered.

It is true that Chiyo revered the Sandaime's strength as the greatest of all the Kazekage, but as a retired veteran who had _no interest in current affairs_, it is highly probable that she spoke oblivious to Gaara's strength and potential. 

I would put the Sandaime just slightly ahead of the Yondaime in power, and Gaara was obviously a lot stronger than his father.​​


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Wood dragon trolls Jinton it absorbs ninjutsu
> lol awww your silly
> My logic is gaara isn't fast enough to stop Jinton  and cannot tank it therefore he looses
> While itachi cannot tank it he has 2 or more Jutsu which are fast enough to stop it
> ...



Gaara already proved his sand can keep up with Ei.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Dec 18, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Wood dragon trolls Jinton it absorbs ninjutsu
> lol awww your silly
> My logic is gaara isn't fast enough to stop Jinton  and cannot tank it therefore he looses
> While itachi cannot tank it he has 2 or more Jutsu which are fast enough to stop it
> ...



He doesn't have to stop it dude.
He can use a clone just like a said. He's fast enough to do it. Clones take no time at all.
He actually was able to catch him, but he needed to mix gold dust with his sand. 

Gaara with a desert back up, is a pretty big defense. If Gaara blocked a leg drop with his gourd sand, Ei isn't getting past desert and gourd sand. 
Nothing Ei has is even close enough to C3.


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## Puppetry (Dec 18, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It is true that Chiyo revered the Sandaime's strength as the greatest of all the Kazekage, but as a retired veteran who had _no interest in current affairs_, it is highly probable that she spoke oblivious to Gaara's strength and potential.
> 
> I would put the Sandaime just slightly ahead of the Yondaime in power, and Gaara was obviously a lot stronger than his father.​​



The databook isn't oblivious to current affairs:



> [Sandaime Kazekage]
> Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the strongest would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his painstakingly defeated opponent, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart. Exactly like a child getting ahold of the best toy ever...



Neither is this _village elder,_ who aided in the decision of making Gaara Kazekage.

Gaara is confirmed stronger than someone who is confirmed to be considerably _weaker_ than the Sandaime. Kishimoto placed him between the two, not above both.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 18, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> The databook isn't oblivious to current affairs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You realize he said "was considered". Meaning during that time. Meaning stronger than the ones before him.


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## Puppetry (Dec 18, 2014)

_The strongest of them all..._

My mistake.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 19, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> _The strongest of them all..._
> 
> My mistake.



"Them all"

Meaning the ones before him. He never said stronger than Gaara.
By Sasori's feat he isnt really impressive so maybe he assassinated him idk.


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## Puppetry (Dec 19, 2014)

On no level is your interpretation remotely supported by the English language. The village elder states 'them' (referring to the Kazekages) and 'all' specifying that he isn't excluding any of the them from his statement. Gaara was a Kazekage at the time and is thus included in his statement.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> On no level is your interpretation remotely supported by the English language. The village elder states 'them' (referring to the Kazekages) and 'all' specifying that he isn't excluding any of the them from his statement. Gaara was a Kazekage at the time and is thus included in his statement.



Other shinobi's opinion proves nothing. Praise and hype can be wrong. Thats why he is not the strongest among Kazekage. Because he is all about praise and hype, not about feats.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 19, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> On no level is your interpretation remotely supported by the English language. The village elder states 'them' (referring to the Kazekages) and 'all' specifying that he isn't excluding any of the them from his statement. Gaara was a Kazekage at the time and is thus included in his statement.



It actually depends on how you interpret it. Yes he said them all yet that can still mean at the time.
As it stands just because A beats B doesn't mean A can beat C too. 
Gaara has better portrayal and Sasori really doesnt. He lost twice by 2 jounin.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Sandaime has a lot of hype and praise, but that proves* nothing at all*, people.

Alistair Overeem also had a lot of hype and praise when he entered The UFC. Many thought he is gonna be next UFC champion.  And what happened after that? Yeah, he lost a lot of fights.


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## Puppetry (Dec 19, 2014)

Real life doesn't have an author who has expresses the same idea four different times. 



Kazekage94 said:


> It actually depends on how you interpret it. Yes he said them all yet that can still mean at the time.



Sure, it _can_ if that it is explicitly stated or heavily implied. But to _add_ context when there exists no reason to is a step away from dishonesty.


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## CatnipAvenger (Dec 19, 2014)

My opinion on the visual genjutsu vs. Pein is that it would affect them all, so they turn off shared vision if possible. If they cannot turn it off, as soon as Pein summons, he (They?) loses.
1 Itachi-Pein
2 Ei-Obito

Ohnoiki is too unreliable at his age.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> Real life doesn't have an author who has expresses the same idea four different times.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it _can_ if that it is explicitly stated or heavily implied. But to _add_ context when there exists no reason to is a step away from dishonesty.



Express through Narutoverse characters. Characters can be wrong. Madara told his PS blade can crush all things in the universe, but Hashirama blocked his PS blade easily. Dan told that no one, except Hashirama, can beat Madara, although there is 8 Gates Guy. Am i need to continue?


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## Bonly (Dec 20, 2014)

CatnipAvenger said:


> My opinion on the visual genjutsu vs. Pein is that it would affect them all, so they turn off shared vision if possible. If they cannot turn it off, as soon as Pein summons, he (They?) loses.
> 1 Itachi-Pein
> 2 Ei-Obito
> 
> Ohnoiki is too unreliable at his age.



Well apperently the newest DB says that visual genjutsu doesn't work on the Rinnegan so yeah



StarWanderer said:


> Express through Narutoverse characters. Characters can be wrong.



Well Kishi himself said the Sandaime was the "strongest Kazekage" at the end of a chapter as well so it's not just characters claiming such.



> Dan told that no one, except Hashirama, can beat Madara, although there is 8 Gates Guy. Am i need to continue?



Well Technically 8th Gate Gai can't beat Edo Madara since Gai doesn't have a sealing jutsu to stop a Edo for good so yeah.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Well Kishi himself said the Sandaime was the "strongest Kazekage" at the end of a chapter as well so it's not just characters claiming such.



Hiruzen was said to be strongest Hokage, but in new Databook, it have been written about Hashirama that up to 4 Shinobi World War date, there is no shinobi who can surpass Hashirama in power.

And give me a scan of that please. I dont remember. 



> Well Technically 8th Gate Gai can't beat Edo Madara since Gai doesn't have a sealing jutsu to stop a Edo for good so yeah.



And Hidan told to Shikamaru he will make his way through his "grave" and kill Shikamaru... There are lots of wrong characters statements in Narutoverse. Characters statement proves nothing at all. The same is about hype and praise.


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## Bonly (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Hiruzen was said to be strongest Hokage, but in new Databook, it have been written about Hashirama that up to 4 Shinobi World War date, there is no shinobi who can surpass Hashirama in power.



Indeed.



> And give me a scan of that please. I dont remember.



A scan of what?



> And Hidan told to Shikamaru he will make his way through his "grave" and kill Shikamaru...



Indeed.



> There are lots of wrong characters statements in Narutoverse. Characters statement proves nothing at all. The same is about hype and praise.



And there are lots of right character statements in the Narutoverse as well. I'm not disagreeing with your point(well not 100 percent at least) that character statements can be wrong, just pointing out the ones you used were wrong, except the Madara one since I don't recall him saying " his PS blade can crush all things in the universe".


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 20, 2014)

The 3rd was the strongest after the first 2 but with no feats he's not stronger than Gaara period. Unless someone gives me proof instead of a statement then check yourself.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> A scan of what?



That Kishi himself said Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage ever.



> And there are lots of right character statements in the Narutoverse as well. I'm not disagreeing with your point(well not 100 percent at least) that character statements can be wrong, just pointing out the ones you used were wrong, except the Madara one since I don't recall him saying " his PS blade can crush all things in the universe".



Indeed. And you decide what statement is true and what is falce by facts and feats. 

"Capable of destroying all matter": Link removed


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## Puppetry (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Express through Narutoverse characters. Characters can be wrong. Madara told his PS blade can crush all things in the universe, but Hashirama blocked his PS blade easily. Dan told that no one, except Hashirama, can beat Madara, although there is 8 Gates Guy. Am i need to continue?



The operative word being _can._ As I said before, you have to have explicit contradictions and not just perceptions to challenge character statements. You're throwing out multiple statements of the Sandaime's power because they don't align with whatever narrative you've written.

I already provided the databook (written by Kishimoto) stating he was the strongest:



> [Sandaime Kazekage]
> Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the *strongest* would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his painstakingly defeated opponent, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart. Exactly like a child getting ahold of the best toy ever...



And then Bonly provided this wonderful caption written by the author:



"The 'strongest Kazekage' has become a puppet!"


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## Bonly (Dec 20, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The 3rd was the strongest after the first 2 but with no feats he's not stronger than Gaara period.



The first Kazekage has no feats to prove he's stronger then Part one Tenten, does that mean he was he's weaker then her because he lacks feats? 



> Unless someone gives me proof instead of a statement then check yourself.



Nobody has to give you anything, you'll ignore anything/everything unless you see what he's shown which we all know isn't going happen more or less so it'll be pointless. 



StarWanderer said:


> That Kishi himself said Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage ever.





I posted the scan in my first post, it was the "strongest Kazekage" words that were in red.



> Indeed. And you decide what statement is true and what is false by *facts and feats*.



Why, because you say so? Feats are limited and Kishi doesn't get to show everything he can. Jiraiya said that Nagato was able to master the five basic elements yet we don't have feats of him being able to do such? Should we ignore said statement because it lacks feat? It said that those with a contract with the toads can summon any toad but Minato has only summoned two toads so should we assume he can't summon any other toad due to a lack of feats. Feats can only take you so far and you gotta have a middle ground for character statements and hype and things Kishi say at some point otherwise your stuck with Part two Konohamaru being stronger then a shitload of Kages because said Kages lack feats while Kono doesn't.



> "Capable of destroying all matter": spam five of them at once



"Sorry, its licensed, and not available". That's all I see but since it's Madara I'll take your word for it since it seems like something he would say lol


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 20, 2014)

Kishi only made that statement to follow up on the idea. Like saying Yata is invincible which it's not.

Part 1 Tenten is fodder. I'm talking about Gaara who is tiers above her weak ass. This is about Gaara.
Nothing Sasori has shown is above Gaara. Kishi tends to be vague. With no feats to back up the claim. Oh maybe he meant stronger than the ones before him. 

Gaara is the strongest Kazekage by feats and portrayal at least use something concrete. 
The 3rd was beaten by Sasori, yet Sasori could of assassinated him. 

Instead of a statement go by feats,  go by portrayal. What did the 3rd do that was so great. People fawn over Gaaraas well.
I'm not ignoring anything but don't hype up someone who has no feats. That's plain stupid.


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## Bonly (Dec 20, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Kishi only made that statement to follow up on the idea.



And you know this how? Kishi himself left a little caption and some characters state he was the strongest as well. What hints that he doesn't think that the Sandaime was stronger then Gaara? Oh wait lack of feats so everyone and their mothers get a pass and get to be stronger amiright  



> Like saying Yata is invincible which it's not.



Kishi didn't say Yata was invincible, he used Zetsu for that but he didn't leave a little caption like he did with Sasori+the Sandaime. 



> Part 1 Tenten is fodder. I'm talking about Gaara who is tiers above her weak ass. This is about Gaara.



Who you are talking about is irrelevant to the point. The point is your sitting here saying 'hurr durr no feats mean he's weaker no ifs,ands, or buts about it". Therefore by using the same logic that would mean Tenten would be stronger then the Kages without feats, it doesn't matter that she's fodder as even when she's fodder she had feats(not many) nonetheless. But your smart so I know you would realize that, that isn't true which means that using that same logic for Gaara may not be true as well. 



> Nothing Sasori has shown is above Gaara.



Nothing the first+second Kazekage shown is above what Chunin exam Gaara(base) did, should I also assume Base Chunin exam Gaara is stronger then the first two Kazekage as well? Sasori has a quite a few things he didn't show, that doesn't mean Gaara's outright stronger due to lack of feats.



> Kishi tends to be vague. With no feats to back up the claim. Oh maybe he meant stronger than the ones before him.



Or maybe he meant stronger then all the Kazekages since he said "the strongest Kazekage" a few times in the manga as well as the DB and didn't say "the strongest of the first three".



> Gaara is the strongest Kazekage by feats and portrayal at least use something concrete.



By feats the Sandaime's Iron sand was the most feared weapon in the sand, not Gaara's arsenal. By feats the Sandaime can form shapes with his iron sand like Gaara can which means he can also float/fly like Gaara can. The Sandaime can pretty much do anything that Gaara can with his and so far the other thing he hasn't shown is to grind up more sand like Gaara can though he uses Iron which means he doesn't need to grind more up and could possible take some from around his general area. By Portrayal the Sandaime was said to be the strongest Kazekage a few times in both the Manga+DB. By feats+portrayal can be considered a toss up and this is without knowing alot about the Sandaime.



> The 3rd was beaten by Sasori, yet Sasori could of assassinated him.



If Sasori would have assassinated the Sandaime then it should have been an easy win for Sasori as the Sandaime wouldn't have seen it coming (like Abraham Lincoln or John F Kennedy) but Sasori said that he had a hard time killing the Sandaime which really support your case for it being an assassination.



> Instead of a statement go by feats,  go by portrayal. What did the 3rd do that was so great. People fawn over Gaaraas well.



A statement leads into portrayal but why should I go by feats only instead when feats are limited, because you want? Lol nope



> I'm not ignoring anything but don't hype up someone who has no feats. That's plain stupid.



The Sage himself didn't have feats for god knows how long yet people were still hyping him, were those people plain stupid? No not at all because in the end it turned out that his hype was justified later on through the series. The Sandaime has feats(through Sasori) and we aren't hyping him, the manga does that for us.


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## Ennoia (Dec 20, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> I see no issue with powerscaling when statements provided make it exceptionally easy to do so in no uncertain terms. What I see here is the misuse of ambiguity to disregard tiers that people dislike.



And the fact that you admit that ambiguity exists makes your interpretation less credible than if it were based on feats. You are using one simple statement and making a sweeping claim when anyone that believes otherwise can make a claim just as reasonable with minimal effort.



> As a sidenote, there was nothing 'tough' about Sasuke's battle with Orochimaru at all. That was a decisive victory in Sasuke's favor, with crystal-clear explanations for why that was so. There weren't any hints of this concerning the Sandaime, and the bewilderment of Sunagakure's elders certainly implies he wasn't some lame-duck waiting to be captured.


Whether or not the fight was tough is irrelevant, the point is that characters make  claims based on lack of information just like any other person does and it has happened multiple times in the manga. Ebisu even did it, stating that Hiruzen is the strongest, it is reflected in two databooks, yet im sure no one believes this not even yourself. Now youre trying to justify your opinion with further speculation by stating that "there were no hints" (how could there be hints when no one saw the fight?) or that "there was bewilderment," why wouldnt there be when their Kage was killed? Dosent change the fact that Sasori could have poisoned him prior to a tough fight.



> Different posters have different mentalities. I am of the opinion that character statements and hype have always been good enough, as they are, in instances such as these, much more clear-cut than feats, where there is leeway for interpretation.


Situations such as these? What kind of situation? 



Puppetry said:


> The operative word being _can._ As I said before, you have to have explicit contradictions and not just perceptions to challenge character statements. You're throwing out multiple statements of the Sandaime's power because they don't align with whatever narrative you've written.
> 
> I already provided the databook (written by Kishimoto) stating he was the strongest:
> 
> ...



If Sasori's use of the Kazekage reflects a significant portion of the Kazekage's true power (which I believe you said) then that alone is an explicit contradiction to what the manga has given Gaara. Unless you want to argue that Sasori using on the Kazekage puppet can beat Gaara then I hope we can both agree that Gaara>the third.


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## ARGUS (Dec 21, 2014)

Apart from IS being superior to gaaras sand, there is nothing really that implies the third kazekage being stronger than gaara apart from just a mere statement from chiyo, 

Gold Dust was also stated to be superior to sand, yet Gaara took care of his dad quite well, 

the scale at which gaara uses his sand in a desert is most likely well well above anything the third kazekage could dish out, since gaara has his source right with him, 

not to mention that the third kazekage puppet from sasori, doesnt use its IS anywhere near the scale at which gaara uses, nor is it anywhere near the speed of gaaras sand, 

with that being said, everyone should stick to feats and logical reasoning, 
which dictates that Gaara > Sasori, and Gaara > Third Kazekage


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## Puppetry (Dec 21, 2014)

Ennoia said:


> And the fact that you admit that ambiguity exists makes your interpretation less credible than if it were based on feats.



No it doesn't, because feats can be just as ambiguous, especially when you start comparing them to feats of other characters. There is a degree of ambiguity inherent in Battledome discussions that no amount of reasoning will ever remove.



> Whether or not the fight was tough is irrelevant, the point is that characters make  claims based on lack of information just like any other person does and it has happened multiple times in the manga.



I don't deny this. Let me be clear about the system I use to analyze character statements:


Character's Knowledge: Does the character have reasonable knowledge to make such a statement?
Character's Motives: Why are the saying this?
New Information: Is there anything that contradicts what was previously established? An explicit contradiction, mind you, not pure inferences.

Now, let's apply these to the statements regarding the Kazekage:


Kishmoto and a Village Elder have plenty of knowledge to state the Sandaime is the strongest (exclude Chiyo if you must, given her retirement). The village elder aided in his appointment, and Kishimoto wrote the manga. 
 The only motive they have is to give us the most accurate information possible. There's nothing to be gained by giving us a false perception; it would cause needless confusion about about a comparatively minor character.  
No new information contradicts previous statements. Gaara gets more feats, but is only explicitly placed above his father, who is weaker than the Sandaime. There's no contradiction here other than one's invented by people.



> Now youre trying to justify your opinion with further speculation by stating that "there were no hints" (how could there be hints when no one saw the fight?)



The databook and Sasori himself (who participated in the fight) could have provided hints at this.



> Or that "there was bewilderment," why wouldnt there be when their Kage was killed? Dosent change the fact that Sasori could have poisoned him prior to a tough fight.



I was using that to indicate that he wasn't ill in the way Orochimaru was; nobody would have been particularly surprised that someone had capitalized on such an obvious weakness.

Poison would have made it an easy fight. Nearly every poison in this manga has had a nearly instantaneous effect.  



> If Sasori's use of the Kazekage reflects a significant portion of the Kazekage's true power (which I believe you said) then that alone is an explicit contradiction to what the manga has given Gaara. Unless you want to argue that Sasori using on the Kazekage puppet can beat Gaara then I hope we can both agree that Gaara>the third.



I didn't say that. I said Sasori had ample time to master Satetsu (the source of the Kazekage's strength) and upgrade the body itself. Given the very nature of the jutsu, it's quite likely Sasori can use it in more ways than shown - such as using it to fly or shield himself.

I've been arguing that this entire time.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 21, 2014)

Bonly said:


> And you know this how? Kishi himself left a little caption and some characters state he was the strongest as well. What hints that he doesn't think that the Sandaime was stronger then Gaara? Oh wait lack of feats so everyone and their mothers get a pass and get to be stronger amiright


But he didn't say that. He never said it himself. The battledome goes by feats not portrayal unless stated otherwise. 



> Kishi didn't say Yata was invincible, he used Zetsu for that but he didn't leave a little caption like he did with Sasori+the Sandaime.


He didn't say the 3rd was the strongest either. 



> ]Who you are talking about is irrelevant to the point. The point is your sitting here saying 'hurr durr no feats mean he's weaker no ifs,ands, or buts about it". Therefore by using the same logic that would mean Tenten would be stronger then the Kages without feats, it doesn't matter that she's fodder as even when she's fodder she had feats(not many) nonetheless. But your smart so I know you would realize that, that isn't true which means that using that same logic for Gaara may not be true as well.


Well with no feats to back up the claim, I guess so. According to logic.




> Nothing the first+second Kazekage shown is above what Chunin exam Gaara(base) did, should I also assume Base Chunin exam Gaara is stronger then the first two Kazekage as well? Sasori has a quite a few things he didn't show, that doesn't mean Gaara's outright stronger due to lack of feats.


You keep using things that aren't relevant. Ok and Gaara hasn't shown everything he can do either. From what it stands, Gaara is stronger than Sasori.





> Or maybe he meant stronger then all the Kazekages since he said "the strongest Kazekage" a few times in the manga as well as the DB and didn't say "the strongest of the first three".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Puppetry (Dec 21, 2014)

There has never been any rule on how to support your arguments nor will there ever be. To suggest that is so outrageously  out of touch with the actual mechanics of the Battledome.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 21, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> There has never been any rule on how to support your arguments nor will there ever be. To suggest that is so outrageously  out of touch with the actual mechanics of the Battledome.


It doesn't matter. Back your argument up with things you can actually use that make sense. Feats make concrete sense. Portrayal is vague at times.


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## Bonly (Dec 21, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> But he didn't say that. He never said it himself.



He left that caption which wasn't a character statement.



> The battledome goes by feats not portrayal unless stated otherwise.



Can you show me where in the rules it says we must use feats only?



> He didn't say the 3rd was the strongest either.



The caption disagrees with ya



> Well with no feats to back up the claim, I guess so. According to logic.



Thanks for letting everyone know you lack common sense.



> You keep using things that aren't relevant.




No they are relevant, you just don't like it as it outs how stupid using "feats" only all the time can be. 



> Ok and Gaara hasn't shown everything he can do either. From what it stands, Gaara is stronger than Sasori.



Lol nope. Gaara has shown all he can do with the multiple times he's been shown in part two. Sasori canonly has more human puppets he can use which said puppets can use their chakra and jutsu which he didn't show. Sasori canonly has 298 puppets yet only used 102 of them meaning he has 196 puppets he can use that he didn't show. Now tell me whats left for Gaara to show that he didn't already show yet?



> He also didnt say stronger than Gaara. You see how the term vague works?



No I don't see how the term vague works by your example. It's a bit of common sense, if it was said a few times that the Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage and Gaara was a Kazekage then by saying he's the strongest means that he's stronger then Gaara.



> Actually that was by a statement. Not by feats.



You do realize that a character statement can also be a feat right?  



> By feats and portrayal? No. Gaara has shown a lot more versatility with his sand.



By feats anything Gaara can do with his sand, the Sandaime can do with his.



> Just because someone has aa stronger weapon doesn't mean you will win.



Well no shit sherlock, I'm not saying he would win due to him having a stronger weapon and that alone. I'm not even talking about the two of them fighting each other, not sure why you think being stronger means beating everyone else.



> Look at the Gaara vs his dad fight. Gaara literally had no difficulty handling him. And Gold Dust > Sand
> 
> A hard time infiltrating. Gaara didn't have a difficult time at all dealing with the 4th.


 
Gaara's dad gave up on fighting and Edo Tensei didn't make him keep fighting(like it did with the other two Kage), if not for that then Gaara would've had a problem so him not having a difficult isn't impressive.



> Its still vague dude. Hard time can mean, just a hard time finding him or getting to him.



You know damn well that wasn't the case, stop stretching like your Luffy. Lol having a hard time finding a Kazekage  



> Well without feats, you can't do anything.



Not gonna lie this sounds really stupid. 



> Irrelevant but at least it was justified in the end. Gaara's feats put him well above Sasori.



>Constantly says using hype is stupid
>Admits that hype does work out sometimes
>Says it's irrelevant even though it goes against your point that believing in hype is stupid





> His feats don't rise above Gaara's whatsoever.



Concession accepted.


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## Puppetry (Dec 21, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> It doesn't matter. Back your argument up with things you can actually use that make sense. Feats make concrete sense. Portrayal is vague at times.





Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara's portrayal is better than Lee and Neji's.



So it's okay to discredit Sasori and the Sandaime's portrayal in this thread but you can run your mouth about Gaara's when it suits you?

Concession accepted. You're clearly more interested in boosting Gaara's reputation than you are in formulating a consistent and reasonable interpretation of anything. Twisting languages, throwing out statements and whatever other mental gymnastics you want to perform isn't going to alter an explicit statement made roughly 5-6 times.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 21, 2014)

Puppetry said:


> So it's okay to discredit Sasori and the Sandaime's portrayal in this thread but you can run your mouth about Gaara's when it suits you?
> 
> Concession accepted. You're clearly more interested in boosting Gaara's reputation than you are in formulating a consistent and reasonable interpretation of anything. Twisting languages, throwing out statements and whatever other mental gymnastics you want to perform isn't going to alter an explicit statement made roughly 5-6 times.



You're using statements at the beginning of fucking Part 2. Kishi has left a lot of questions and statements be. 

You have nothing but statements to back up your claim but no given feats. He said this he said that. Hello, you can't use that in a court case. You need proof. You have known. Sasori's feats aren't anywhere near Gaara's. You're just trying tk hype of Sasori to pretend he's a boss when he got shat on by 2 jounin.


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## Kazekage94 (Dec 21, 2014)

Bonly said:


> He left that caption which wasn't a character statement.


Kishi writes what the characters say too. 





> Can you show me where in the rules it says we must use feats only?


Show me where in the rules that you can only use portrayal.




> The caption disagrees with ya


The manga disagrees with Sasori above Gaara.




> Thanks for letting everyone know you lack common sense.


Love, this is soo irrelevant.




> No they are relevant, you just don't like it as it outs how stupid using "feats" only all the time can be.


No they aren't



> Lol nope. Gaara has shown all he can do with the multiple times he's been shown in part two. Sasori canonly has more human puppets he can use which said puppets can use their chakra and jutsu which he didn't show. Sasori canonly has 298 puppets yet only used 102 of them meaning he has 196 puppets he can use that he didn't show. Now tell me whats left for Gaara to show that he didn't already show yet?


The first part, you are using assumptions not feats.
Gaara hasn't used his wind technique. Or Jinton



> No I don't see how the term vague works by your example. It's a bit of common sense, if it was said a few times that the Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage and Gaara was a Kazekage then by saying he's the strongest means that he's stronger then Gaara.


Not according to portrayal or feats. By a beginning of Part 2 statement. Common sense would tell you that Gaara is above the 3rd.



> You do realize that a character statement can also be a feat right?


I doubt it. Feats are shown by the character themself. Ei said he was the fastest man alive. Yet that was false.




> By feats anything Gaara can do with his sand, the Sandaime can do with his.


That's by assumption, not feats.



> Well no shit sherlock, I'm not saying he would win due to him having a stronger weapon and that alone. I'm not even talking about the two of them fighting each other, not sure why you think being stronger means beating everyone else.


Then what are you talking about? And watch your mouth.



> Gaara's dad gave up on fighting and Edo Tensei didn't make him keep fighting(like it did with the other two Kage), if not for that then Gaara would've had a problem so him not having a difficult isn't impressive.


You are just assuming that. It wasn't stated.





> You know damn well that wasn't the case, stop stretching like your Luffy. Lol having a hard time finding a Kazekage


We don't know the case. IT'S VAGUE THAT'S VAGUE. A HARD TIME DOING ANYTHING. 




> Not gonna lie this sounds really stupid.


Yea I know you hate Gaara.





> >Constantly says using hype is stupid
> >Admits that hype does work out sometimes
> >Says it's irrelevant even though it goes against your point that believing in hype is stupid


K, love.





> Concession accepted.


If that helps you sleep at night.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Kazekage94 said:


> Rank these characters
> 
> Ei
> Ohnoki
> ...



Ei- High Mid Kage
Ohnoki- Low High Kage
Tsunade- High Mid KAge
Sasori- High Mid Kage
Itachi- Mid-High High kage
MS Obito- High High Kage
Gaara(desert)- High Mid Kage
Orochimaru- High Mid Kage (Pt 1 Edo), High High Kage (Pt 2 Edo)
Jiraya(Low High Kage
Pain- Mid High Kage (6PoP), Nagato is the threshold for God tier
MS Sasuke- Top Mid Kage


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## Nikushimi (Mar 6, 2016)

1. Itachi/Pain
2. MS Obito
3. A
4. MS Sasuke
5. Sasori
6. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
7. Oonoki
8. Tsunade
9. Gaara (desert)


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## ARGUS (Mar 6, 2016)

1. Pein 
2. Obito 
3. Itachi 
4. MS Sasuke 
5. Ay 
6. Jiraiya 
7. Onoki 
8. Gaara
9. Orochimaru 
10. Tsunade
11. Sasori


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 6, 2016)

MS Obito
Pein
Itachi
MS Sasuke
Jiraiya 
Orochimaru / Tsunade
Onoki
Ei
Gaara
Sasori​​


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> MS Obito
> Pein
> Itachi
> MS Sasuke
> ...



Surpried that you put Onoki & Gaara so far below, imo they're around Jiraiya's level.


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