# Base Naruto punch vs. Edo Madara



## Ersa (Nov 12, 2015)

Could this punch send him into orbit? If Naruto upper-cutted him.

Not the first punch, that was probably not base. The second punch was base though.

Rate it from 1-10.

1 - Madara tanks it
10 - He gets sent into space


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Edo Madara gets sent flying into space with no way back to Earth.

 GG Madz.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 12, 2015)

Toneri >>> Alive Madara > Edo Madara

An 8 or 9 sounds about right.


----------



## Amol (Nov 12, 2015)

Madara becomes first person ever to fly through a galaxy


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Nov 12, 2015)

He's finished if he takes it head on. If he uses PS then he tanks it with a 0.


----------



## t0xeus (Nov 12, 2015)

Madara reacts in time and uses Susanoo (ribcage) and tanks it with 1/2.

If Susanoo activation is restricted, he probably gets fatally injured depending on where Naruto hits him.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Nov 12, 2015)

Madara gets tossed out of the Milkyway.


----------



## Brooks (Nov 12, 2015)

Edo Tensei are immoral zombies. Even if Madara gets hit, I don't see what's stopping him from regenerating.


----------



## Zensuki (Nov 12, 2015)

Does Madara have Susanoo....if so 0/10


----------



## Marsala (Nov 12, 2015)

It's not really a "base" punch if he starts off in Kyuubi Chakra Mode and then focuses all of the chakra right into his fist. Chouji did the same thing with his butterfly wings.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

No, you see the cloak is deactivated, along with the energy in his hand once Toneri's attack has ended. 

He then focuses energy in his right hand (while in base, neither of his palms glowing prior to focusing the energy, and without the cloak) and throws a punch that Toneri cannot react to. 

Even if you suggest the left palm technique that blocked Toneri's attack was him simply transferring the cloak into his left palm, he had no such cloak activated prior to manifesting energy in his right palm for the punch and he didn't have that energy signature on any part of his body prior to manifesting it in his right hand. 

My opinion is he was in base both times, because he's not in a transformation when performing either feat. But there is absolutely no argument as it pertains to the punch (second feat) as far as I'm concerned, that was 100% Base Naruto with the ability to manifest energy in his right hand for a taijutsu attack without an ounce of energy signature on his body (Ergo, base) prior to manifesting it in his right palm.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

Considering Toneri could fight against BSM Naruto in CQC and the punch still fucked him up, I doubt the lower level of Susano would matter


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Marsala said:


> It's not really a "base" punch if he starts off in Kyuubi Chakra Mode and then focuses all of the chakra right into his fist. Chouji did the same thing with his butterfly wings.


Don't bother, logic doesn't work with these guys.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord, what transformation was Naruto in when he punched Toneri?

Do remember to use logic.

Here is the list of his transformations:
-KN0-KN6 (Cloak, fox eyes)
-Sage Mode (Eye pigmentation, dashed eyes)
-Kyuubi Chakra Mode (Cloak, fox eyes)
-Kyuubi Chakra Sage Mode (Cloak, fox eyes, dashed eyes)
-Bijuu Mode (Cloak, fox eyes)
-Bijuu Sage Mode (Cloak, fox eyes, dashed eyes)
-Rikudo Sage Mode (Cloak, fox eyes, dashed eyes, Gudōdama)
-Rikudo Sage Bijuu Mode (Cloak, fox eyes, dashed eyes, Gudōdama)

Which one?


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

For the 238498675768th time
he condensed his BSM to that punch.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Okay, let's find it.

Here we are.

-Bijuu Sage Mode (Cloak, fox eyes, dashed eyes) [1]

Hmmm, I didn't see fox eyes, dashed eyes, or a bodily cloak 

In short, he wasn't in a transformation.

Unless you're suggesting BSM Naruto doesn't have any of these physical features?


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I didn't see fox eyes, dashed eyes, or a bodily cloak.
> 
> In short, he wasn't in a transformation.
> 
> Unless you're suggesting BSM Naruto doesn't have any of these physical features?





> con?dense
> verb
> verb: condense; 3rd person present: condenses; past tense: condensed; past participle: condensed; gerund or present participle: condensing
> 1. make (something) denser or more concentrated.
> "the limestones of the Jurassic age are condensed into a mere 11 feet"


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Please explain how  is this transformation. 

Or GTFO?


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Please explain how  is this transformation.
> 
> Or GTFO?





> con?dense
> verb
> verb: condense; 3rd person present: condenses; past tense: condensed; past participle: condensed; gerund or present participle: condensing
> 1. make (something) denser or more concentrated.
> "the limestones of the Jurassic age are condensed into a mere 11 feet"


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Concession accepted

Now please exit this section, it is for debating.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2015)

It's not Base. Madara is fucked regardless.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Miraculously, your three words didn't convince me, Alex.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Answer these two questions for me then:
1. How does naruto depowering to beat an enemy he couldn't beat in a powered form make any form of sense?
2. Why was base naruto trashed by base toneri if base naruto is > TCM toneri?

Unless of course Base toneri>Base naruto>TCM Toneri>BSM naruto


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2015)

What made you think I was trying to convince you?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Answer these two questions for me then:
> 1. How does naruto depowering to beat an enemy he couldn't beat in a powered form make any form of sense?
> 2. Why was base naruto trashed by base toneri if base naruto is > TCM toneri?
> 
> Unless of course Base toneri>Base naruto>TCM Toneri>BSM naruto


1. How does Base Naruto blitz and land Rasengan on a path he couldn't land FRS or Bijuudama on while in SM or KN6 ?
2. Why did Base Naruto trash TCM Toneri if TCM Toneri is > Base Naruto?




Alex Payne said:


> What made you think I was trying to convince you?


What made you think you convinced anyone?


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

1. Concession accepted.
2. Cause he wasn't in base, dear.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

1. Concession accepted
2. He was in base, no cloak, no dashed eyes, no fox eyes


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2015)

And what made you think I was trying to convince anyone? I read the first post. And posted what I think about it.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 12, 2015)

AP convinced me , anyway Madara gets sent flying taking quite a bit of damage but he's an Edo so he'll just regen the damage so yeah


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Do I need to link you to the dictionary again DaV?
Its getting embarrassing at this point.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Do I need to link you to the dictionary again DaV?
> Its getting embarrassing at this point.


Do I need to post every picture of Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto, and then post every picture of Base Naruto?

So through extended study you can discern that they are two different things?

I mean, it's pretty simple.

Blue-eyed, human-eyed, non cloaked, regular pupil Naruto is Base Naruto.

This is tough, I know. It can be a shock. 

Base Naruto looking like a regular human and all.

If you want to invent shit up like "partial transformations" (things I've only heard recently in the 10+ years I've debated this manga on multiple sites) go ahead.

You will still be wrong.

Naruto is not in a transformation when he punches Toneri.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

If you insist on sticking with your hallucination then its fine.
I won't try to convince you otherwise.

You could open a poll about it if you'd like.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 12, 2015)

So I guess P1 Base Naruto can summon Gamabunta?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> If you insist on sticking with your hallucination then its fine.
> I won't try to convince you otherwise.
> 
> You could open a poll about it if you'd like.


No need, if 99.9% of the human race said that was BSM Naruto they'd still be wrong. 

It's been thoroughly documented what Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto looks like, it's been confirmed multiple times as he's entered and exited this transformation what it looks like as it's consistently looked exactly the same every time he's entered it with null deviation. 

When Naruto punches Toneri, he retains none of the physical features of the Bijuu Sage Mode transformation.

Thus, he is not in that transformation.

Base Naruto can now focus Kurama's chakra into his palm and punch someone with force that puts Byakugou Sakura to shame. This is canon, Kishimoto wrote and oversaw the production of this film.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No need, if 99.9% of the human race said that was BSM Naruto they'd still be wrong.
> 
> It's been thoroughly documented what Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto looks like, it's been confirmed multiple times as he's entered and exited this transformation what it looks like as it's consistently looked exactly the same every time he's entered it with null deviation.
> 
> ...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

My triumph


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

btw guys, Base toneri is god-tier confirmed


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Naruto is always in BSM, confirmed by dude with deer avatar


*Spoiler*: __ 



Not so sure if we should believe it though, considering it's a dude.... with a deer avatar


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

What is this shit?


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Yes naruto always has shining hands of fox chakra 
unless you ask DaV, in which case the answer is
"What glowing hand"
"What hand"
"What is hand"
"I can't see."


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer avatar dude confirms glowing hand = BSM Naruto

I'll let the author know right away, he won't have to draw him with the cloak, fox eyes or dashed eyes in further productions

He'll be ecstatic


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

They sure as hell ain't base


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Confirmed glowing hand = a new transformation never introduced to the public

Kishimoto has a secret transformation in mind for Naruto for his next... oh wait the manga is over 

"Glowing Hand Mode" 

GHM Naruto solos


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

I think that there's misunderstanding in the air


----------



## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> My triumph



Is that really you.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I think that there's misunderstanding in the air


There's no misunderstanding, just DaV entrenching himself.

Either that or he legitimately has the visual processing abilities of a 5 yro.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is that really you.



Probably just a random photo on the internet that just happen to fit context-wise


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord busting the series wide open with new guidelines for Naruto's transformations

>No Cloak
>No Fox eyes
>No dashed eyes

Who cares? 

It's BSM Naruto confirmed by deer avatar guy 

The world may never know if or when Naruto is in base or BSM


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm having way too much fun here
keep ridiculing yourself DaV.

I'm really tempted to open that poll now


----------



## Kyu (Nov 12, 2015)

Apparently Bee entered a mode when he blocked raikage's punch.

The more ya know.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> I'm having way too much fun here
> keep ridiculing yourself DaV.
> 
> I'm really tempted to open that poll now





			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> No need, if 99.9% of the human race said that was BSM Naruto they'd still be wrong.
> 
> It's been thoroughly documented what Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto looks like, it's been confirmed multiple times as he's entered and exited this transformation what it looks like as it's consistently looked exactly the same every time he's entered it with null deviation.
> 
> ...


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

You asked 99.9% of people on earth? amazing!

As expected of DaV sama


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

I am willing to try and write a serious post about this thing however.
even though I think it might be the dumbest shit I've ever had to explain.

but only if you can guarantee a serious reply, because otherwise its not worth my time.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

> Apparently Bee entered a mode when he blocked raikage's punch.
> 
> The more ya know.


They now refer to it as "partial Bijuu Mode" years after the feat was printed, published, released, and debated thoroughly. 

I love it 

Naruto trashes a dude in base and people introduce "partial transformation" term because they can't accept the feat


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> *You asked 99.9% of people on earth? amazing!*
> 
> As expected of DaV sama





> No need, *if* 99.9% of the human race said that was BSM Naruto they'd still be wrong.



Reading comprehension fading, a true sign of a crumbling debater





Deer Lord said:


> I am willing to try and write a serious post about this thing however.
> even though I think it might be the dumbest shit I've ever had to explain.
> 
> but only if you can guarantee a serious reply, because otherwise its not worth my time.


I've been replying seriously.

I can't take a dude with a deer avatar serious though, especially after you claimed that was BSM Naruto.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

You know what I'll do it anyway, I'm that nice of a guy.
-------------------------------------
Lets start with definitions because you have a history of twisting them.

I'm going off of the definition that
Base=No using of power ups or external power-sources, i.e. no natural energy or bijuu chakra.

We have seen how fair base naruto handled un-powered toneri twice in the movie.
In both cases he was beaten without much effort.

So when toneri powered up further on the tenseigan, naruto entered BSM to fight him.
He even managed to hit him directly with a rasengan in this form, the result was the cloak on his armes peeled off.

Said punch however blew the whole thing off though. 
This is the first nonsensical thing about your claim, how can a punch in base be  > a rasengan in BSM?

When you watch the fight you see naruto avoiding the golden sword on his powered from.
However the second time, not only did he not dodge it, he charged it head on.
Before he has done so, he deactivated all of his cloak save the one on his arm.
Why would he do that? It makes zero sense to depower oneself before clashing with an attack that could kill you in your powered from.

The simple answer, the most people get is that naruto simply put all of his power/chakra/energy into his hand so he could block the sword.
He does the exact same thing a second later when he punches toneri, which result in much more damage then a BSM rasengan.

You can go on and on about visuals or semantics or whatever, but the fact remains the same.
This is not something that naruto would be able to do without his extra powers.
He needed to be transformed to use this move, that much is abundantly clear from the scene.

Suggesting that he could beat toneri without the use of his sage and bijuu powers makes no sense in the context of the film.

@Kyu This is not a partial transformation like what Bee does.
When bee grows tentacles and whatnot he start out un-transformed, with naruto it is the opposite, he starts out transformed and then uses the technique.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

> Base=No using of power ups or external power-sources, i.e. no natural energy or bijuu chakra.



That's not the definition, especially not for Base Jinchuriki.

You've already started off incorrect. Your entire post is irrelevant because of this. 

That's never been the definition.

The definition of base is the passive mode of a ninja.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not the definition, especially not for Base Jinchuriki.
> 
> You've already started off incorrect.
> 
> That's never been the definition.


That's what you say.
As far as I've seen basically everywhere, that's the definition.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

You're wrong.

I've been here longer, "Base" Killer Bee can use Tentacles and arm mutations.

I've been in multitudes of debates that have granted this.

Base Jinchuriki benefits from the bijuu's power.... that's why they're a fucking Jinchuriki.

If they don't benefit from it... they're not a fucking Jinchuriki.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> I've been here longer, "Base" Killer Bee can use Tentacles and arm mutations.
> 
> I've been in multitudes of debates that have granted this.


I've already explained why these two cases are dissimilar.
A technique used in "base" cannot be one that requires a full transformation beforehand.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

You guys are arguing over semantics.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

It didn't.... he was in base then manifested the chakra in his hand.

The glowing left palm was deactivated when Toneri's technique was destroyed, he was in base at that point....


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

You posted this gif yourself.
Naruto starts out transformed, put his power into his hand to block the sword, then does the same thing with the punch. It is indentical.
That's pretty straightforward.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Dude, right before he manifests chakra in his right hand there is no glowing part of his body.

As soon as Toneri's technique is destroyed, that left glowing palm is gone. 

He then manifests chakra into his right palm and punches him- this is a base technique.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

As I've said before, that makes no sense.
It caused far more damage than a rasengan from BSM naruto.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Dude, Base Naruto blitzed Deva Path with a Rasengan.

Deva Path avoided FRS twice and reacted to KN6 Naruto. 

What that means is Base Naruto, when thrown by two base Naruto clones, can move faster than FRS & KN6 Naruto. 

There are inconsistencies throughout the manga as it pertains to assumed weaker forms of ninja performing better than their higher forms.

Accept it, or don't.

Naruto can now punch harder than Byakugou Sakura while in base. That is what that feat showcased.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

Base naruto didn't blitz deva, he cleverly used KB to make use of the 5 sec interval.
ST was what shat on FRS, the doding of the first one was by the paths combined efforts.
It made much more sense then this.

What you are suggesting is naruto being able to beat a god tier in base
a god-tier which he struggled with in a vastly augmented form.
a god-tier who's base form, which is significantly weaker has shat on base naruto twice.

Anyway you spin it, it's still nonsensical.
Naruto needed most if not all of his sage and bijuu powers to beat toneri like that
If this is what you call 'base' then it's just that your definition is straight out wrong.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> You know what I'll do it anyway, I'm that nice of a guy.
> -------------------------------------
> Lets start with definitions because you have a history of twisting them.
> 
> ...



 So P1 Base Naruto is not Base? 

[2]
[2]


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

The seal lets some of kurama's chakra mix with naruto's own
but at the end of the day its still naruto's chakra, he doesn't need to ask kurama to use it.
Hence, not external power.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Base naruto didn't blitz deva, he cleverly used KB to make use of the 5 sec interval.
> ST was what shat on FRS, the doding of the first one was by the paths combined efforts.
> It made much more sense then this.
> 
> ...


Bro, he blitzed him.

Deva Path could've avoided him as he avoided FRS two times, he didn't need to use ST.

He didn't. He was blitzed. 

Base Naruto made a Rasengan, was picked up by two base clones, and was thrown toward Deva Path who was at least 50m away, he did not react, he was slammed in the stomach with a Rasengan and destroyed. A path that literally jumped away from FRS twice, and KN6 Naruto should not have had an issue avoiding that version of Naruto, but he didn't. 

Your inability to realize the inconsistency in feats is baffling. They exist throughout the manga, I don't even need to make an argument for them. 

The bottom line is that was Base Naruto who punched him, I proved it. Not a single part of his body was in a partial or full transformation when he manifested chakra in his right arm to punch that guy. His left arm was no longer glowing, none of his body was glowing prior to him manifesting that chakra in his right hand. He was 100% in base when he performed that punch.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The seal lets some of kurama's chakra mix with naruto's own
> but at the end of the day its still naruto's chakra, he doesn't need to ask kurama to use it.
> Hence, not external power.



 It is an external source of chakra seeing as how Kurama's Chakra isn't his actual chakra. Kurama Chakra mixing with his own and actually using it (which he actually does) is no different than demanding chakra from Kurama. The difference is the sheer quanity of Chakra, but Naruto's still using Kurama's Chakra, whether  voluntarily or not.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

I said my piece, this argument isn't going to go anywhere by the looks of it
There's only so many times I can repeat myself.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

You're wrong, now please stop crying and move on Deer Lord.

We've heard you repeat yourself, you're simply wrong.

Accept it.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It is an external source of chakra seeing as how Kurama's Chakra isn't his actual chakra. Kurama Chakra mixing with his own and actually using it (which he actually does) is no different than demanding chakra from Kurama. The difference is the sheer quanity of Chakra, but Naruto's still using Kurama's Chakra, whether  voluntarily or not.


Reaching for an external source is like everytime naruto goes to his inner world and talks to kurama
or kurama actively helping naruto out on his own accord.
Either way it requires Kurama's consent for the chakra transfer, which is different from naruto simply using his own reserves.

The seal being used to increase naruto's personal reserves is besides the point here.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You're wrong, now please stop crying and move on Deer Lord.
> 
> We've heard you repeat yourself, you're simply wrong.
> 
> Accept it.


Repeating it don't make it true


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 12, 2015)

Dude, it's irrelevant if Kurama is involved or not.

Base Naruto is a Jinchuriki, whatever he can do in Base (without transforming) is Base Naruto's abilities.

Kurama, and whatever of his abilities Naruto can tap into, does not disappear when he's in base.

In the manga, when he shits, when he pisses, when he sleeps, when he fucks - Kurama is there.

Kurama is always there, whether Naruto is in Base or Bijuu Mode.

*If* Naruto showed he could make a Bijuudama without transforming, any thread with "Base Naruto" in it without bijuudama restricted - could result in "bijuudama GG"


----------



## Marsala (Nov 12, 2015)

Didn't Base Naruto get knocked out by one finger of his little daughter?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Reaching for an external source is like everytime naruto goes to his inner world and talks to kurama
> or kurama actively helping naruto out on his own accord.
> Either way it requires Kurama's consent for the chakra transfer, which is different from naruto simply using his own reserves.



 Except it's no different. Naruto naturally taps into an external power source which naturally raises his reserves substantially, so by your definition, he's not in Base. Him demanding it voluntarily or not is irrelevant because he's still tapping into Kurama's Chakra. Even the manga states it multiple times, so by your definition, he's not in Base.

 It is entirely relevant because one of the points of your argument depended on what you defined Base Naruto to be.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 12, 2015)

> @Kyu This is not a partial transformation like what Bee does.
> When bee grows tentacles and whatnot he start out un-transformed, with naruto it is the opposite, he starts out transformed and then uses the technique



Naruto doesn't need to activate a mode in order to channel residual kyuubi/sage chakra into his fist. What did he do when the chakra on his left hand dispersed? Channel more onto his right. He did this _how_ exactly? In base.

Appearance aside, what he & Bee did is essentially the same thing. Difference is Naruto can do this without drawing directly from his biju's chakra.


Anyway, I'm not going over this shit again. I explained this shit in a previous thread already:



> Define Kurama's chakra. While it originated from the fox, Naruto can freely control a sizable portion of it(enough to enter Chakra Sage Mode) without his biju's aid due to it being permanently merged with his own chakra reservoir.
> 
> *Things he can do independently from Kurama:*
> 
> ...





> Btw
> [YOUTUBE]zDSjM-c2inM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> The whole "oh but first he's gotta don a full body cloak & focus it into his palm" argument falls apart around 3:45. At best you can try to argue blocking Kinrin Tensei Baku required a condensed senjutsu chakra mode, however that's suggesting there's a limit to the potency/quantity of chakra Naruto can focus into his fist.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

Isn't it funny that Naruto decided to transform into Super Sage Mode against Lil Shin? With the way he's being portrayed on here, you would think he could've just liquefied Shin's bones by flexing his chakra in base.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 12, 2015)

Rusty Naruto is weaker then The Last so that feat isn't scalable. 

Also by that logic Kaguya should've chakra-crushed Kakashi and Sakura to pulp but she didn't. Sakura dodged one of her Juubi arms as well, lol.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

You're right. I'm just surprised Naruto transformed. Rustiness isn't going to take one from above Edo Madara in base to using SSM against Lil Shin. Maybe he could have beaten Shin in base with no difficulty, but it certainly wasn't portrayed that way.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 12, 2015)

I'll explain how Godruto couldn't beat Shin in base when you explain to me how Kaguya was portrayed to be unable to one-shot Sakura and dodge her later on.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

You are trying to compare "Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura vs Kaguya" to "Naruto, Salad, and Chocho vs Shin." 

Do I need to say more?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2015)

That's not base Naruto. That's KCM-SM Naruto whose focused the entire shroud into his arm.



Ersad said:


> Rusty Naruto is weaker then The Last so that feat isn't scalable.



Hardly weaker, just rusty. His battle sense was dulled. Didn't look like it was much of a problem after he encountered Shin a second time and when he took on Momoshiki and Kinshiki.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Isn't it funny that Naruto decided to transform into Super Sage Mode against Lil Shin? With the way he's being portrayed on here, you would think he could've just liquefied Shin's bones by flexing his chakra in base.



Either Naruto is always using RSM  even against fodder or it was fake hype for Shin.


----------



## Marsala (Nov 13, 2015)

Shin had the Mangekyou Sharingan and Naruto was protecting two kids so he was cautious.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 13, 2015)

> Isn't it funny that Naruto decided to transform into Super Sage Mode against Lil Shin? With the way he's being portrayed on here, you would think he could've just liquefied Shin's bones by flexing his chakra in base.


That was him exuding his greatness to display dominance and convince him to give it up immediately, which he did, because he immediately ran and warped away after that.

He hadn't fought in awhile either, I think he actually wanted to cut loose. 

Also, he was blocking blindside projectiles [1] [2] aimed at children. 

There's no point in writing a sequel arc of Naruto, without Naruto showing his power.

Yeah, go ahead, go taijutsu gg them all in base Naruto, that's better than you transforming in front of the new characters for the first time.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 13, 2015)

You are speaking to me as if I didn't know it was plot.


----------



## Six (Nov 13, 2015)

That's not a base punch, he gathered all of Kurama's massive chakra in one point and attacked. A regular punch sent a Toneri puppet flying like 2 feet.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 13, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> That's not a base punch, he gathered all of Kurama's massive chakra in one point and attacked. A regular punch sent a Toneri puppet flying like 2 feet.


Irrelevant, there is no rule that suggests a base Jinchuriki can't gather all of their Jinchuriki's massive chakra in one point and attack.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 13, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch
not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch
not a base naruto punch
not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch

not a base naruto punch


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 13, 2015)

Here's Naruto transformations:

kn0-kn6
sm
kcm
kcsm
bm
bsm
rsm
rsbm

Which transformation was he in when he punched Toneri, thechickensage?

Here's the physical features prior to the punch:


----------



## Ersa (Nov 13, 2015)

I ain't not top notch debater but I'd say it's Base Naruto.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 13, 2015)

the debate going on is rather pointless. the people saying that the punch used against toneri is base narutos punch lack basic comprehension skills.

the punch used against toneri isnt base narutos power. 

naruto focused all of the chakra of his biju sage shroud into his left hand to run through toneris beam, then he transferred the chakra from his left hand to his right in order to punch toneri. 
doing this requires him to activate biju sage mode.


would the punch sent madara into orbit? no, not even close. its would send him flying back and left in a vulnerable state afterwards assuming it hit. 
narutos punch doesnt have the feats of sending anything into orbit.
realistically, madara would be safe from all damage if he manifests even a basic susnano.


----------



## Six (Nov 13, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Irrelevant, there is no rule that suggests a base Jinchuriki can't gather all of their Jinchuriki's massive chakra in one point and attack.



So how come earlier when he punched a Toneri puppet it barely flew? His entire body except for his arm wasn't in base


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> So how come earlier when he punched a Toneri puppet it barely flew? His entire body except for his arm wasn't in base


Low end and high end feats.

For one, he didn't focus bijuu energy into his hand when he punched the puppet.

When he punched Toneri, he did.

There's a clear difference. The technique he used on Toneri was a god-level Taijutsu attack, while he simply punched the puppet. 

But he was in base when he did it. Unless you can provide an arguement that suggests he was in a transformation when he gathered energy in his right hand to punch?

Refer to my previous post as it pertains to his transformations and explain to me how he was in one of them prior to charging and landing that punch.



> naruto focused all of the chakra of his biju sage shroud into his left hand to run through toneris beam, then he transferred the chakra from his left hand to his right in order to punch toneri.
> doing this requires him to activate biju sage mode


He did not. His left arm wasn't glowing prior to him charging that right arm up for the punch, there was no transfer because the glowing left arm would've instantly disappeared, and the right hand would've instantly glowed - it did not, no part of his body was glowing prior to him charging the right arm and he was 100% in passive base prior to charging that punch for a gauged time frame.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

If you consider THAT PUNCH a "base" punch, then how do you conceptualize these increasingly focused uses of a bijuu chakra cloak:


Does a fully cloaked Naruto count as "base".....?
What about if he uncloaked his head, increasing the chakra around the rest of his body?
What if he moved most of the chakra to his chest to help him tank an attack?
What if he concentrated his cloak into just his arm?
What if he concentrated his cloak into just his hand?
What if he concentrated all his cloak onto the striking surface of his knuckles?

If you concentrate the cloak in an area and use it for defense/attack, then those areas aren't in base.  The rest of him, the exposed, "human looking," "not orange glowing parts" would be in base.

So if you punch with an orange hand, it's not a base punch.  If you block with an orange hand, it's not a base block.  If you kick with an orange foot, it's not a base kick.  If you take a blow to the orange glowing chest, it's not a base tanking feat.

He is concentrating his whole chakra cloak into his hand.  He is punching with his hand.  His hand is the ONLY THING NOT IN BASE AT THAT TIME.

You're making the 100% exact opposite argument...your'e saying the ONE part of his body covered in the cloak is in base.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

I asked you which transformation, thechickensage.

Here's the list:

kn0-kn6
sm
kcm
kcsm
bm
bsm
rsm
rsbm

Which transformation was he in when he punched Toneri, thechickensage?

Here's the physical features prior to the punch being charged (0% glowing body, no cloak, non-mutated eyes) and landed (glowing right arm):


Be sure to back your argument up with canon evidence (preferably manga) that his physical features match up to his other uses of said transformation.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

Would you like to see a base Naruto punch?
Here:


Here is another:


DaVizWiz, *What is that orange stuff?*


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

He's 3 years older when he performs that punch against Toneri. 

I guess it's impossible for a kid of his genius to learn how to channel his bijuu chakra into his hand with 3 years of training, when he learns FRS and SM in days at 15.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

*What do you think that orange stuff is?*


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

>16 year old Naruto punch without the chakra to enter RSM for a second

vs.

>19 year old Naruto (3 years of training for the same kid who learned SM in a week, FRS in a couple days) with a ton of chakra left performing a chakra-enhanced punch

>chickensage deems them comparable
>chickensage thinks a glowing arm = transformation


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

Do you agree the orange stuff is bijuu chakra?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

It's bijuu chakra, sure. 

Certainly not a transformation.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

1.  If it's bijuu chakra, then it's not purely Naruto's own personal chakra

2.  Meaning his punch is enhanced with bijuu chakra.

3.  Meaning bijuu chakra is hitting Toneri.

4.  Meaning it's not a base punch.


Our disagreement comes between 3 & 4.   

So, why do you view his orange arm NOT as a partial transformation?

The inclusion of bijuu chakra means that it's not fair to call it a "base punch," but you are caught up on whether or not Naruto is transformed AS A WHOLE.

For me, whether or not his face shows a transformation is irrelevant when we're talking about a punch.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Bro, Base Jinchuriki have and use bijuu chakra regularly.

They benefit from bijuu being in them- even in base. 

We have midget Naruto summoning 1,000 clones at age 13. 

What are you talking about?


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

1.  If it's bijuu chakra, then it's not purely Naruto's own personal chakra

2.  Meaning his punch is enhanced with bijuu chakra.

3.  Meaning bijuu chakra is hitting Toneri.

4.  Meaning it's not a base punch.


Our disagreement comes between 3 & 4.   

So, why do you view his orange arm NOT as a partial transformation?

The inclusion of bijuu chakra means that it's not fair to call it a "base punch," but you are caught up on whether or not Naruto is transformed AS A WHOLE.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

There is no valid disagreement. 

I have never seen a stipulation that a Base Jinchuriki is a Jinchuriki who cannot benefit from or utilize the chakra of their bijuu. 

That would mean they're not a Jinchuriki 

It's not a partial transformation, it's a fucking taijutsu attack


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

"Base" to me means ONLY Naruto's normal, human power.

If he's using bijuu chakra, then it's not "base"

It's clearly more powerful than any regular Naruto punch, right?

All his bijuu chakra is concentrated into a cloak for just his hand.  His hand is transformed.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

No, I've been asked the same question many times.

He can't activate Susano without his eyes being mutated (EMS), ergo entering a transformation, and no longer being in base.



> dk what you mean. Any Jinchuriki not actively using bijuu chakra is considered "base"


No idea what you're talking about, bud.

Base is the passive mode of an individual, ergo absent transformation.

It has nothing to do with whether or not a Jinchuriki uses bijuu chakra.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

So do you think that there is no such thing as partial transformations?

That Naruto wasn't controlling where the bijuu chakra was concentrated?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Partial transformation is a term that was literally created once this feat was introduced.

I have never, in my entire time here, heard that term brought up.

And this is years after Killer Bee used tentacles, increased the size of his arm to throw people, and blocked V1 Raikage's punch with a gyuki-like palm. 

Didn't hear a lick about partial transformations after the release of these feats by Killer Bee. I've literally debated in threads where "Base Killer Bee" was a combatant, and people were using his tentacles and fist expansions as a valid option for him in the battle, without this term "partial transformation" ever being brought up. 

Recently (after this naruto punch was introduced),

People brought up examples of Sasuke manifesting a wing to stop Jugo as a partial transformation. Wrong, that is CS1 (transformed, curse seal released) Sasuke.

People brought up examples of Susano hands being manifested as partial transformation. Wrong, MS/EMS appear when using any variant of Susano (transformation, no longer passive mode [mutated eyes])

The bottom line is, according to Naruto's transformations, and here's the list:
kn0-kn6
sm
kcm
kscm
bm
bsm
rsm
rsbm

That was not one of these transformations. If you want to fanfic it up and create a new transformation for naruto, "glowing arm mode" be my guest.

I will categorically deny it as it's a ridiculously idiotic notion, however, you're free to your own opinion.

That was Base Naruto, channeling bijuu chakra into his arm, to perform an advanced taijutsu technique.


----------



## Amol (Nov 14, 2015)

I also don't think it is fair to call Naruto being in 'base' when he clearly using shitton of Kurama's chakra.
Why would BSM Naruto would go in 'base' to defeat his opponent?
It should be classified as partial transformation atleast.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

*Your argument: * "It's not in my list of transformations, so it's not a transformation at all and Naruto is therefore in base."

*My argument*: "It looks exactly like his standard transformations, but localized to his arm, therefore you can say that Naruto's ARM was transformed, but the rest of him is NOT transformed.  Therefore, it is a new thing that we should call a 'partial transformation'"

Does that summarize our arguments?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Be my guest and name the transformation, thechickensage. 

Glowing arm mode?

Arm Kyuubi Chakra Mode?

Entertain me, please.

It's not a transformation, partial transformations don't exist in this manga, you're either in a heightened mode, or you're not.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

My argument is that it is a slight modification/extension of modes we've seen 100s of times before.  

A logical adaptation of his 'full-body transformations'

Yes, it is something we haven't seen before, but my explanation is EXTREMELY simple

It makes more sense for Kishimoto to slightly adapt stuff we've already had explanations for, rather than to just "give" naruto a new power


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Partial transformation is a term that was invented because people can't accept the fact that Naruto can do this in base. 

I repeat, it has never been brought up on here prior to this feat being introduced.

There is no transformation, he's energizing his arm to perform a taijutsu attack- while in base.

A Base Jinchuriki can use bijuu chakra to enhance their abilities as long as they don't transform.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

we're just talking in circles, i'm tapping out

i still think you're wrong for saying "base punch" when it looks 100% exactly the same as his activated modes

(like seriously, if you just saw the hand, would you call that a "base" hand?  of course not)


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Concession accepted 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Just kidding, agree to disagree


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm glad neither of us activated our Izaya-mode.  

We both stayed in "base"

btw kermit is my avatar, you're trying to abduct him


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

Well he/she certainly puts effort into it.

Orochimaru beats Itachi low diff though, even though it was the complete opposite case in the manga twice.


*Spoiler*: __ 



According to Izaya*O*rihara (*O* for *O*rocihmaru)


----------



## Six (Nov 14, 2015)

Honestly how fucking stupid can a person be? Naruto was in bm or bsm or whatever the hell it was, and he decides to power down to take out an enemy that kept up with him toe to toe in his enhanced state. Why do you see the arm was glowing to the point that it looked on fire?  Because of that massive tailed beast chakra localized at one point. 
His arm was in an enhanced state, and the rest of his body was not, I don't see what the hell is so simple to get about that. It's only lyrics a few idiots making this more complicated than it needs to be. His damn arm is glowing even brighter when everything is concentrated at one point than it was when his entire body was cloaked.


----------



## rubberguy (Nov 14, 2015)

Naruto didn't transform so it can't be a partial TRANSFORMATION. If base naruto is the naruto never relating with his bijuu benefits/powers then that base never existed.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He did not. His left arm wasn't glowing prior to him charging that right arm up for the punch, there was no transfer because the glowing left arm would've instantly disappeared, and the right hand would've instantly glowed - it did not, no part of his body was glowing prior to him charging the right arm and he was 100% in passive base prior to charging that punch for a gauged time frame.


there isnt any reason that the chakra would have to instantly disappear from his left and into his right with absolutely zero time in between for my point to be correct.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 14, 2015)

rubberguy said:


> Naruto didn't transform so it can't be a partial TRANSFORMATION. If base naruto is the naruto never relating with his bijuu benefits/powers then that base never existed.



The tailed beast is still withing you, you're just not accessing its chakra.

Naruto vs Neji: Naruto was in base until the kyuubi came out.  Then he wasn't in base.

Naruto vs Kakuzu: Naruto was in base

Naruto vs Sasuke (I): start in base, then he transforms


You've seen Bee do partial transformations using tentacles, why is it so inconceivable that naruto would be able to do the same thing.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 14, 2015)

thechickensage, I already told you the tentacles aren't partial transformations, and have never been labeled as such on here.

A base Jinchuriki is still a Jinchuriki, Jinchuriki benefit from their bijuu.

Suggesting otherwise is folly.



> Naruto vs Kakuzu: Naruto was in base


He was in KN0.

It's not really relevant though, even in base Jins get a huge boost in stamina at the very least, Naruto got considerably larger reserves as well (1,000 bunshins at 13).

Without being a Jin his stamina wouldn't be a 5 in the databook, he wouldn't be making 1,000 bunshin at 13.


----------



## thechickensage (Nov 15, 2015)

What do you call the butt_tentacles then?

And I thought Naruto stayed in base the whole fight vs Kakuzu... Didn't he use a few clones and a rasenshuriken twice... And that was the whole fight?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 15, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> What do you call the butt_tentacles then?
> 
> And I thought Naruto stayed in base the whole fight vs Kakuzu... Didn't he use a few clones and a rasenshuriken twice... And that was the whole fight?



explicitly stated to have dodged
explicitly stated to have dodged
explicitly stated to have dodged

 Nope, KN0.


----------



## rubberguy (Nov 15, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> The tailed beast is still withing you, you're just not accessing its chakra.
> 
> Naruto vs Neji: Naruto was in base until the kyuubi came out.  Then he wasn't in base.
> 
> ...



the kyuubi chakra is always leaking (high stamina, rapid healing/recovery?) just that when it leak uncontrollably (sp??) naruto gain certain features. So there is never base naruto


----------



## Naruto sucksbutsodoessauc (Nov 16, 2015)

So OK I would say it is a base form punch not a transformation or a partial transformation but an enhanced punch kinda like how goku explained he uses kaioken in short bursts to boost his strength and speed against ginyu(that's still base goku even if his using a technique to momentarily enhance his strength). I  know most people get annoyed at the fact that naruto enhanced his strength while in base and say that he's not in base form to downplay him and that's understandable because they do have a point(mainly sasuke fanboys and I kniw because i was one of those). I believe that's just a problem with the naruto fanbase that I'm not used to and that is the ABC logic in reality any serious vsdebater would tell you that toneri (let's live naruto out of this for a second) can physically one shot madara and send him to space as he has never tanked a physical strike on that level, powerscalling in reverse is the most flawed and stupid way of debating a vs match by feats toneri or naruto send madara to space.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Nov 16, 2015)

Wow as a huge Naruto fan myself I must say this is stupid as hell. He focused all Kurama's chakra, his own, sage chakra, etc. into his fist for an incredible punch. You say you'v been on here for a while and know what defines base but I don't know a single self-respecting poster other than yourself that thinks this constitutes base.

This is some semantics bullshit regardless. If he could not beat him in base and he needed to power up to fight him equally, does it make sense that he powers down again to fight him? This is very basic reading comprehension.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 16, 2015)

> hat do you call the butt_tentacles then?


I call them tentacle releases, I've heard others refer to them as chakra arms. 



> Wow as a huge Naruto fan myself I must say this is stupid as hell. He focused all Kurama's chakra, his own, sage chakra, etc. into his fist for an incredible punch. You say you'v been on here for a while and know what defines base but I don't know a single self-respecting poster other than yourself that thinks this constitutes base.
> 
> This is some semantics bullshit regardless. If he could not beat him in base and he needed to power up to fight him equally, does it make sense that he powers down again to fight him? This is very basic reading comprehension.


It's irrelevant whether or not it makes sense.

He performed the punch while absent a transformation (in base). There is nothing else to discuss. 

Partial transformations don't exist in the manga, I've made my stance clear on this point. You're either transformed, in a mode, or you're not. And if you're not, anything you do is considered in base.


----------



## Six (Nov 16, 2015)

Why does anyone keep replying to this retard?


----------



## Siennyzhuang (Nov 19, 2015)

I know i am not supposed to ask here but i want to know, when edo madara fight with the shinobi alliances, he was trying to kuchiyose kyuubi which he assume already in his hands by the time he is being reaminated. Is he able to do that ? I know
Kurama is in naruto's however if kurama has been sealed inside the gedo mazou, is he still able to kuchiyose kurama ? 
And i wonder why all this time kurama don't know who is the one that attack konoha 16 years ago is obito? He can sense chakra and all yet he still assume that the chakra belongs to madara not obito.


----------

