# Might Guy vs Jiraiya



## Troyse22 (Feb 13, 2017)

vs



Location: Konoha
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 35m
Restrictions: 8th gate
Stipulations/Notes: Jiraiya starts in base


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## Mithos (Feb 13, 2017)

Jiraiya wins.

His guerilla tactics fighting style works well to protect against Gai's straight-forward high-speed taijutsu style.

Jiraiya makes plentiful use of Shadow Clones, which is a sound strategy to avoid being blitzed.
Jiraiya can also hide in shadows using his Toad Silhouette technique - also good for keeping off the pressure.
Spiked Buddha is a good defense against taijutsu because the hardened hairs would not only protect against the force of Gai's blows, but would also inflict severe damage on Gai if he tries to attack. Makes approaching difficult and risky for Gai. May be able to partially defend against Morning Peacock or Afternoon Tiger to reduce damage.
If pressured, Jiraiya can hide in his Toad Barrier and/or trap Gai in there. Hiding inside could be used to used to prep Sage Mode.
Smoke bombs + distraction toad can also help to reduce pressure and get some breathing room, especially if used before/after some of the other pressure reducing techniques.
Large toads can actually cover larger distances faster than Gai can because of their jumping ability. That means they can also help prep Sage Mode. They can also potentially help Jiraiya evade a mid- or long-range Afternoon Tiger.
Despite his speed, Gai doesn't have any effective means to deal with some of Jiraiya's AoE attacks, including Swamp of the Underworld, Toad Flame Bombs, Toad Deep-fryer (Sage Mode), or Gamabunta's Water Cannonballs. If Jiraiya can create distance/openings using some of the aforementioned tactics, Gai would be hard pressed to deal with these techniques since he lacks defensive jutsu and speed alone is not a great defense against attacks that cover a _huge_ range.
Sage Sensing and Frog Kata make CQC dangerous even for Gated Gai. Gai's speed and superior skill don't mean as much if he has to dodge invisible blows that he doesn't see coming, and with SM Jiraiya's strength, one hit is all it would take to change the tide of the battle.
In short, I think Jiraiya has the versaility and tactics necessary to protect himself against Gai's speed. Even in the 7th Gate, Gai would be susceptible to guerilla tactic diversions (e.g., Shadow Clones, smoke bombs + distraction toad, Toad Silhouette - or any combination of them) and large AoE such as Swamp of the Underworld, which could be further followed up with other AoE attacks such as Food Cart Destroyer, Toad Flame Bombs, or Water Cannonballs while Gai is stuck and can't dodge.

I don't think Sage Mode would be needed, honestly. But if Jiraiya is feeling threatened enough, he should be able to use is summons and guerilla tactics to buy time to enter Sage Mode. From there, Sage Sensing, Frog Kata, increased speed, and sage empowered ninjutsu allow him to overpower Gai.

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 1


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## ARGUS (Feb 13, 2017)

Guy goes 7th gate and bodies jiraiya

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Gohara (Feb 14, 2017)

Jiraiya wins in my opinion.  Jiraiya is around the same level of power as Nagato.  Gai had a lot of difficulty defeating Kisame who I would argue is a level below Nagato in terms of power.


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## Android (Feb 14, 2017)

Underworld swap + Yatai Kuzushi wrecks Gai.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Jiraiya is around the same level of power as Nagato.



?????

Reactions: Agree 3


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 14, 2017)

Jiraiya wins
Gai is considered on the same general level as kakashi while  kakashi himself admits jiraiya is his superior

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Feb 14, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Gai is considered on the same general level as kakashi



By who? Guy has always been above Kakashi with the gates

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 14, 2017)

Gai didn't surpass Kakashi until the 8G , that was made clear during Gai's fight with Madara .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 14, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Gai didn't surpass Kakashi until the 8G , that was made clear during Gai's fight with Madara .



7g Gai was significantly above Kakashi, maybe even 6th gate


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## Android (Feb 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 7g Gai was significantly above Kakashi, maybe even 6th gate


Sure

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 14, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Jiraiya wins
> Gai is considered on the same general level as kakashi while  kakashi himself admits jiraiya is his superior




Except the part where Kakashi/Gai were facing off against multiple V2's while Jiraiya almost died to just one. 

Also forgot the part where Gai landed Hirudora against Madara more than once. 


Jiraiya can't tank Hirudora so he loses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## t0xeus (Feb 14, 2017)

Hirudora comes out pretty soon I'd imagine since Jiraiya will dance around Gai with his evasive jutsus for too long. After Hirudora though, Jiraiya has really no chance of surviving it (it wrecked Maddy's V3 Susanoo and Gai was super exhausted already before it) so Gai takes it mid diff.

Chances are 6th Gated Gai already takes it tho.


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2017)

Gai beats him with as much ease as he beat kisame


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 14, 2017)

Im unsure about this one honestly...

No idea how Jman would handle gais gated speeds at 6th gate+

I know for a fact he cant handle a morning peacock if he gets tagged with it, let alone hirudora

Gai tagged edo mads with hirudora, and tagged JJ mads with it as well...he wont have much issue tagging ero sennin with one

EDIT: Jman starts in base? He gets destroyed...it takes gai 2 seconds to pop the gates and lolblitz, it takes jman about 2 solid minutes of stalling to enter SM, hes up a creek


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 14, 2017)

Kisame's fake %30 chakra clone almost reacted to Gai's air kick.
Kisame released daikodan nearly in same time with Hirudora.. And after eating hirudora on his face. He was still able to break mokuton bars, protect to secret from a mental attack.

You are free to ignore P1 of this series but still a fact. Kisame legitly inferior too Jiraiya..

In Part 1.. Naruto wasnt able to understand samehada's swing from one meter away. He had no idea what just happened.

Jiraiya Shunshin into building + 5 Hand Seal Kuchiyose + And Gama came and stop Kisame's swing in mid-section  Itachi or Kisame didnt even realised Jiraiya come into action.. until Gama stopped Kisame's slash.

Due to portrayal how 6 Gate Gai gonna murder Jiriaya ?! Maybe ım biased or what.. Guys think what you want.. but ı dont see 6th Gate Gai taking any Kage.

And once Jiraiya summoned a giant toad. Gai have to jump or climb and thats create a reaction process for Jiraiya...

He doesnt need SM for 6th Gate Gai.. only need for 7th Gate Gai and once he entered in SM.. this is turns a low-mid diff for J-Man..



Sapherosth said:


> Except the part where Kakashi/Gai were facing off against multiple V2's while Jiraiya almost died to just one.


Except the part Jiraiya never charge for Kill .. And still able to tank the impact that able to open a crater or able to splits orochimaru in half :... Kakashi or Gai have any durability feat against a jinc/bijuu ?!

And this is a long term battle shounen.. And due to logic of this type of series.. If a alive character live enough he/she will be gain more feats and powers.. Jiraiya died too early. If Jiraiya had been in war arc too probably he will able to show similar feats. Due to how Pain Arc Kakashi saw so inferior to Jiraiya. 2 arc later War-Arc happened..

I wanna see Gai or Kakashi gonna restrain Kn4 Naruto even after that punch w/o killing intent  or Kakashi taking stalemate with 6 Pain Path w/o an arm for a little amount of time 

So ı can list so much thing that had done by Jiraiya but Kakashi aint. So that logic is kinda wrong.


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## Santoryu (Feb 14, 2017)

Gai wins by using the seventh gate.

The view that Kakashi implied inferiority to Jiraiya so Gai is weaker by default is easily discredited if one simply refers to an obvious power up for Kakashi; the ability to travel between dimensions and better MS usage. I don't even need to mention all of his other war feats. Moreover, Kakashi was incognizant of Jiraiya not taking on the paths head on. Do people think the manga stopped at the Pein arc?

The notion that Gai being significantly better than Kakashi without the final gate is disproved by Gai himself. Kakashi only acknowledged Gai his superior once the latter resorted to the final gate;prior to that, they were comparable.


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## Gohara (Feb 14, 2017)

@ Troy.

Nagato stated that Jiraiya can best him in a fair one on one match up.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 14, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Troy.
> 
> Nagato stated that Jiraiya can best him in a fair one on one match up.



PEIN stated that, meaning the Six Paths of Pein, not Nagato himself.

Nagato is canonically stronger than the Six Paths of Pein. Are you going to suggest that Jiraiya can do what Bee, Itachi and KCM Naruto can? Nope. Nagato is out of Jiraiya's league by 2 tiers easily

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2017)

Here's the thing Gai could defeat Jiraiya w/ AT, but Jiraiya could defeat Gai w/ like a dozen different techniques and greatly outclasses him as an overall Ninja, especially in SM. So to me it's like Kakashi's Kamui. Yes Kamui is dangerous to most Ninja, but it's something Kakashi pulls out later in the battle, and his other skills are so greatly lacking in comparison to the individuals he's usually matched up against, that while he could possibly win if he lands that one move, he will loose or be outperform most of the time. Similar situation with Hebi-Sasuke and Kirin, Naruto & 50% FRS, Itachi w/ Izanami, and so on.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Except the part where Kakashi/Gai were facing off against multiple V2's while Jiraiya almost died to just one.
> 
> Also forgot the part where Gai landed Hirudora against Madara more than once.
> 
> ...



This stupid comparison.

1- Kurama is stronger than all of the others combined
2- Jiraiya was fighting against his godson and did not want to harm him
3- It's not like Kakashi and Gai managed to do anything. 
4- They were 4 Vs 6, where in Jiraiya case he was alone. 

That's like saying Sakura fought against Kaguya, therefore she is stronger than Asspulldara and everyone else who is not T7 member or Obito. 

- Kisame basically tanked Hirudora. There is no proof that Jiraiya can't tank it either. 

---

OT: Jiraiya wins.

It's very clear that portrayal puts him above 7 Gates Gai.
7 Gates Gai is on the same level as Kisame.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sapherosth (Feb 15, 2017)

Hussain said:


> This stupid comparison.
> 
> 1- Kurama is stronger than all of the others combined
> 2- Jiraiya was fighting against his godson and did not want to harm him
> ...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2017)

Base Jiraiya would have no issue until the 6th gate, while sage.mode Jiraiya will definitely push gai to his seventh. Still, frog song ends it imo. Gai will not realize he will have to end it quickly and he will get caught.
Even though it might be false, I actually believe Jiraiya will even be capable of stalling 7th gate Gai with the aid of his toads and their leaps while frog song gets prepped. 

Forget about it, Jiraiya wins. Look at the location, speed will be a much smaller factor in a place with that many buildings where you can hide and prep your shit. 
Change the location and Gai takes the majority with the seventh gate


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## Serene Grace (Feb 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya almost died to just one.


Yah because Jiraiya was clearly trying to kill/injure Naruto the boy who say as a grandson instead of trying to restrain him like context clearly dictates.....reaching at maximum levels this is getting out of hand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Sapherosth (Feb 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yah because Jiraiya was clearly trying to kill/injure Naruto the boy who say as a grandson instead of trying to restrain him like context clearly dictates.....reaching at maximum levels this is getting out of hand.





Just because he was trying to save Naruto doesn't mean he has to nearly die in the process 


It just means he wasn't strong enough to subdue a *mindless beast* which were stated to be *weaker than controlled ones*.

It's called common sense. Every Akatsuki member were subduing Bijuu's without killing them and without nearly dying in the process easily.

Besides, Gai already tagged Madara with Hirudora so him tagging Jiraiya is pretty much certain. Jiraiya isn't more durable than Kisame so he'll drop just get owned.



Funny how when it comes to Jiraiya, people always give him some sort of fanfic idea that he can somehow react and defend things like 7th Gate.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 3


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## Serene Grace (Feb 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Just because he was trying to save Naruto doesn't mean he has to nearly die in the process


He was trying to restrain him, not save or hurt him. Your point also lacks substance since we didn't see what actually went down, Jiraya could have been unprepared toppled with that fact that he doesn't want to HURT naruto, so mute point



Sapherosth said:


> It's called common sense. Every Akatsuki member were subduing Bijuu's without killing them and without nearly dying in the process easily.


Akatsuki members are aloud to hurt them they just can't kill them, while Jiraiya wasn't trying to hurt Naruto at all. You know what that means let me break it down slowly for you:

Akatsuki..memebers..can..use...big...tech...to...hurt...bjiuii

While...Jiraiya...can't...use...big...tech...because...he...care...about...naruto..
Is that simple and slow enough for you, I'll go slower if you want?

Classic nonsense from yours truly.



Sapherosth said:


> It just means he wasn't strong enough to subdue a *mindless beast* which were stated to be *weaker than controlled ones*.


-_- use your head bro. He was holding back SEVERELY, unless you think Jiraiya is busting out his big techs to put down, a boy he cares about.  What's next is Naruto going to try and hurt his daughter if she gets mad or goes crazy as well

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Just because he was trying to save Naruto doesn't mean he has to nearly die in the process
> 
> 
> It just means he wasn't strong enough to subdue a *mindless beast* which were stated to be *weaker than controlled ones*.
> ...



Funny, because when you give this to an itachi fan

They will say "He was protecting Sasuke, that's why he got hit" 




> Just because he was trying to save Naruto doesn't mean he has to nearly die in the process



Naruto himself got captured when he was trying to protect his kid and salad. 

Gaara got captured when he was trying to protect his village.

Tsunade went on coma when she protected everyone from Pain's CST.


protecting someone/holding back always put you at a disadvantage.


You mentioned the Akatsuki even tho they attack the Jinchuuriki in 2 Vs 1. 
a weaker Bijuu as well.



> It just means he wasn't strong enough to subdue a *mindless beast* which were stated to be *weaker than controlled ones*.


No, what was stated is a Bijuu in a host is stronger than one without a host.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Lord Aizen (Feb 15, 2017)

guy doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't start in at least 6 gates. If guy doesn't start in gates he eats a giant rasengan to the face


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## Muah (Feb 15, 2017)

I mean techniqually it's a tie. Gai uses 8 gates and then dies.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Suoh (Feb 15, 2017)

Konoha is a pretty large village with lots of buildings so Jiraya should have a fairly easy time reaching SM and setup a plan. The knowledge stipulation helps Jiraiya more because his arsenal is more complex and he'll have more stuff to surprise Gai with. Jiraiya should be able to setup strategies and eventually kill Gai. Jiraiya high diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 15, 2017)

Suoh said:


> Konoha is a pretty large village with lots of buildings so Jiraya should have a fairly easy time reaching SM and setup a plan. The knowledge stipulation helps Jiraiya more because his arsenal is more complex and he'll have more stuff to surprise Gai with. Jiraiya should be able to setup strategies and eventually kill Gai. Jiraiya high diff


Oh man this. I wish some people would take the location into consideration. A location like this would allow an opponent as versatile and smart as Jiraiya to devise some sort of plan, or trap. Also allows him to sufficiently enter SM without too many(if not any) complications

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Suoh (Feb 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Oh man this. I wish some people would take the location into consideration. A location like this is would allow an opponent as versatile and smart as Jiraiya. to devise some sort of plan, or trap. Also allows him to sufficiently enter SM without too many(if not any) complications


Location has proven to be an important detail in the manga ala Jiraiya vs Pein, Gaara in a desert, SM Kabuto in a cave, the forest surrounding the Uchiha hideout, etc. This is a location that fits Jiraiya's style, so he'll hold a key advantage

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Sapherosth (Feb 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He was trying to restrain him, not save or hurt him. Your point also lacks substance since we didn't see what actually went down, Jiraya could have been unprepared toppled with that fact that he doesn't want to HURT naruto, so mute point
> 
> 
> Akatsuki members are aloud to hurt them they just can't kill them, while Jiraiya wasn't trying to hurt Naruto at all. You know what that means let me break it down slowly for you:
> ...





Lmfao, you said it yourself that we don't know what went down yet you have the balls to say that Jiraiya "Held back severely" despite the fact that there's no mention at all? 

Right........

Oddly enough, sick Orochimaru was TOYING with 4 tails and got close to it easily. If Orochimaru wanted to reseal it he could have without nearly dying in the process.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Jad (Feb 15, 2017)

Gai could just clear Konoha with one Hirudora if Jiraiya escapes his vision to go with a Guirrella tactic.

But with Manga knowledge why would Jiraiya do that. He only played hide and seek when he was overpowered and outnumbered.

Did he not engage for a lengthy time at the start of his battle with Pain first off?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2017)

Cut this "who was holding back" crap out, clearly Gai who accomplished little in the manga without resorting to 8th gate (and then still nothing), is going to lose to the genius who taught the Mac and held off a main villian for 2 chapters.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

~M~ said:


> Cut this "who was holding back" crap out, clearly Gai who accomplished little in the manga without resorting to 8th gate (and then still nothing),







He managed to take down one of the strongest members of the Akatsuki in his 7th gate.

Despite Kisame being nerfed and being Kisame's main counter, bringing him down was a pretty significant feat.

He also hit JJ Mads with Hirudora


7th gate Gai also possesses a jutsu that was scaring Shinobi from across turtle island 

Tell me how Jiraiya is going to escape the blast radius 

Jiraiya either needs to kill Gai before he opens the 6th or 7th gate, or lose.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## ~M~ (Feb 15, 2017)

Yeah, he "hit" madrara and phased him accomplishing nothing. And Kisame fought all kinds of people including Killer B who Jiraiya could also probably take.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

~M~ said:


> And Kisame fought all kinds of people including Killer B who Jiraiya could also probably take.



No, Bee would utterly destroy Jiraiya.

All Bee needs is his V2 Lariat and that outright kills Jiraiya.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He also hit JJ Mads with Hirudora


No need to be delusional. 
Asspulldara countered Hirudora easily. 



> Tell me how Jiraiya is going to escape the blast radius



Kisame survived after a direct hit. Why would the radius kill Jiraiya?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 16, 2017)

Hussain said:


> No need to be delusional.
> Asspulldara countered Hirudora easily.
> 
> 
> ...



Im not denying Madara recovered fast, i'm saying hitting him at all was a feat in itself in the 7th gate.

Kisame's durability also exceeds Jiraiya's pretty respectably (Naruto almost killed Jiraiya in 1 weak ass strike, whereas it took a perfect Jin's V2 to momentarily incapacitate Kisame)

And Bee is Naruto's physical superior until BM. Jiraiya is barely above average in terms of durability.

An attack that manages to stop Kisame would outright kill Jiraiya.


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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

Hussain said:


> No need to be delusional.
> Asspulldara countered Hirudora easily.
> 
> 
> Kisame survived after a direct hit. Why would the radius kill Jiraiya?



You're just salty Minato had to watch Gai's back as he out performed him. Don't let your salt ruin the thread.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 16, 2017)

7th Gate puts down Jiraiya

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2017)

The swamp can help stall Gai long enough for Jiraiya to set up follow up attacks, Jiraiya's hair jutsu provides good offense and defense in CQC which is where Gai is gonna need to go in order to do any meaningful damage, Bunta can be used to help overwhelm Gai with his Suitons and their Katon+oil combo and clones help set up feints to set up good follow up attacks which could possibly take out Gai, etc. Gai is gonna need to use the 6th or 7th gate in order to win though with Jiraiya having many hiding places for some good ol fashion guerilla warfare along with his ability to go into Shadows, he could likely outlast Gai as the gates wear him out. If Jiraiya feels the need to use Sage Mode and he gets into it, Gai simply gets overwhelmed so yeah I'd favor Jiraiya more times then not.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2017)

Jad said:


> You're just salty Minato had to watch Gai's back as he out performed him. Don't let your salt ruin the thread.


instead of useless posts, you can try to put some arguments. 

Pont out the flaws in my posts.


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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

Hussain said:


> instead of useless posts, you can try to put some arguments.
> 
> Pont out the flaws in my posts.


Sure. First one would be "Point" not "Pont". This will take a while Hussain, I'll try though.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2017)

Jad said:


> This will take a while Hussain, I'll try though.


If you will write a wall of text, then there is no need to do so.


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## J★J♥ (Feb 16, 2017)

Base guy runs through Jiraya.
A lot of people think that Guy kicking Jiraya in the face was a goof, but manga proved over and over that there is a very thin lane between comedy and reality of Guys character.
Guy is a goofy character and that is costing him a lot of reputation, but every time someone mentions his strength they either show a massive respect for him or flat out say that he is stronger than X character. It seemed like a goof until guy went and beat the shit out of literal god.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Disagree 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 16, 2017)

Sakura hits to Kaguya
Konohamaru take a Pain Path
Boruto flew off Momoshiki


So keep sayin and desperately or hold on to "Gai tagged Madara " (the first one was a sucker punch) its not make your argument more solid.  OF course thats is a good acheivement. But Madara never used advance jutsu to Gai.. He is a mad-shinobi about power and competition... Just got into cqc with Gai. This is about Madara's character. He is jobbed when he fought with Kages, he is jobbed when he fought with Gai.. He is only starts to take serious things is when he faced RSM Duo and when he faced Hashirama. 
Even in his eight gate, Lee able to throw that kunai perfectly and kunai moves fast as Gai.. And Minato's timing was so good to interfere a sekizo punch. ANd at first Lee save Gai's as from that tsb attack from Madara..

So even in 8th Gate that dude not portrayed as inevitable force. In my opinion after than RSM Naruto he was the fastest character.. and he is also in top 5 at striking power but still.. He still able to tracking by other people.. And Madara not used his techs.. Meteors, Elements, Lazer Beams, Lightning Web,Rinnegan abilities,Summoning, Mokuton, Susano, etc ,etc.. He just use TSB and that was fine enough to shake Gai off. And thanks to Minato's plan Gai was able to throw the kick & punches of his life. 

And cqc is the "ONLY THING" gai has. So of course he performed/showed some serious feats he has to.. This is main logic of the long term shonen manga. 

I also can see Jiriaya or any other character from Naruto taggin something more powerfull than him due to moral code of the scene or emotional set behind it. (the examples up there.) 

----------------------

People almost looks dont wanna talk about how 6th,7th gate turns to Gai so bad. 

Jiraiya stalemated 6 path of pain for small amount of time when his arm ripped-off. And he was still able to sucked in a safe position and he was able to escape if he decides.. And in that time he is still able to take out one of them.

So how 7th Gate Gai gonna block or interfere his guerilla tactics. When Pain cant able to do when they have homefield and number advantages ?!? 

And thanks to Giant Toads, Gai have to climb or jump thru him. And thats givin decent time to Jiraiya for creatin solutions against Gai. 

And people asking about how Jiriaya tanks Hirudora ?  How gai tanks Gamayu Endan, SCOR, Senpo Goemon, Dai Endan, Kebari Senbon, Ranjishigami no jutsu, Rasenrengan, Odama Rasengan, Suiton Toppa, Yatai Kuzushi ? 

He just can avoid some of them but he cant tank any impact of them though. 
Hirudora didnt able to take out Kisame for good.. Kisame still able to fight after some rest. 
Hirudora crash Madara's non legged susano with sucker punch.. Similar thing performed by Tsunade too. Jiraiya is a guy who is beating by Tsunade constantly who is almost die cuz of this. So ? we dont know ıf he can able to find the chance to land hirudora and we also dont know can hirudora kill jiraiya ? 

So there is so many doubts and twists inside of it. And how we can be sure Gai will kill Jiraiya with one shot ?! Just cuz tagging distracted Madara ? So what now, EoS Sakura > BSM Naruto or or something cuz she tagged Kaguya and able to track DSM Kakashi RSN Naruto & Sasuke and Kaguya ?!


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## Seekingsoul (Feb 16, 2017)

Jiraiya is very, very dangerous, I say too dangerous an opponent for Gai.

Think about it! One of the most impressive jutsus, imo, till this day belongs him; I'm referring to that space time kekkei genkai barrier he surrounds himself with. With this ability alone, we know he's able to quite literally *instantly *teleport a six path to his spacious acid realm and leave the other paths quite literally clueless as to where he disappeared too -- in spite of their enhanced sensory perception and shared vision. How, thus, in the world can Gai (a taijutsu only specialist) realistic approach an individual that could pull him to his doom *instantly* by a space time jutsu in close range? How?


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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

Seekingsoul said:


> Jiraiya is very, very dangerous, I say too dangerous an opponent for Gai.
> 
> Think about it! One of the most impressive jutsus, imo, till this day belongs him; I'm referring to that space time kekkei genkai barrier he surrounds himself with. With this ability alone, we know he's able to quite literally *instantly *teleport a six path to his spacious acid realm and leave the other paths quite literally clueless as to where he disappeared too -- in spite of their enhanced sensory perception and shared vision. How, thus, in the world can Gai (a taijutsu only specialist) realistic approach an individual that could pull him to his doom *instantly* by a space time jutsu in close range? How?


What the hell are you talking about. That has got to be the most broken justu ever. Can you provide scans?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 16, 2017)

Jad said:


> What the hell are you talking about. That has got to be the most broken justu ever. Can you provide scans?




Of course the word of "teleport" is wrong. But the other things and what happened with Pain is true per canon. But ı dont think it can be usefull for every location or situation.. but yeah still an impressive asset for J-Man.


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## Seekingsoul (Feb 16, 2017)

Jad said:


> What the hell are you talking about. That has got to be the most broken justu ever. Can you provide scans?


After pulling off an impressive genjutsu performed by PA and MA to finish the 3 paths off; Nagato revived the paths and caught Jiraiya off-guard. Jiraiya then lost an arm to Asura path as he was sent to an open environment.

He was then engaged with all 6 paths in combat for a period of time.  

During combat, he encircled himself with a space time barrier -- it's called _Kekkai barrier: Gamahyoro. _Look it up!


During this engagement, one of the paths charged right into him and got caught by it -- Jiraiya said "He charged right into my barrier". The barrier is ticket to the Acid realm.

As soon as this happend, the path that was displaced into Jiraiya's territory was quite literally doomed. Other paths and Nagato couldn't locate the doomed path because this barrier severs links from the outside world to the the doomed path inside (it's essentially untraceable via sensory ninjutsu).



*Remember*, this path was trapped because it charged right at Jiraiya. It's fate was to be experimented on by Konoha's research and development team.

So if Jiraiya places a barrier around himself, and Gai charged right at him (and we know he will because he's a taijutsu only specialist), Gai would've effectively placed himself in a seemingly insurmountable situation.

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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

Seekingsoul said:


> After pulling off an impressive genjutsu performed by PA and MA to finish the 3 paths off; Nagato revived the paths and caught Jiraiya off-guard. Jiraiya then lost an arm to Asura path as he was sent to an open environment.
> 
> He was then engaged with all 6 paths in combat for a period of time.
> 
> ...


Erm. The only barrier Jiraiya has is his sensory one. The toad drags the opponent into the location via wrapping it's tongue around the opponent and swallowing them.

What you described is a technique that can one shot Everyone in the Naruto world.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 16, 2017)

Jad said:


> The only barrier Jiraiya has is his sensory one


Nope, that was a barrier and space/time jutsu too. 





Jad said:


> What you described is a technique that can one shot Everyone in the Naruto world.


He is just a bit exaggerate it but didnt mean what you just said. Its not a oneshot for everyone and never mentioned like that but its a fearfull asset to be reckoned with. Thats all.


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## t0xeus (Feb 16, 2017)

Jiraiya is so underrated. He basically has a B-rank technique that functions like Kaguya's dimension swapping technique, only difference is that the toad has to touch you with its tongue first before she warps you there.

Wtf I love Jiraiya now

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## Sapherosth (Feb 16, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> *Jiraiya is so underrated*. He basically has a B-rank technique that functions like Kaguya's dimension swapping technique, only difference is that the toad has to touch you with its tongue first before she warps you there.
> 
> Wtf I love Jiraiya now





More like he's overwanked. There are people who actually believe that Jiraiya can react to V2 Raikage and 7th Gate Gai.

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## t0xeus (Feb 16, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> More like he's overwanked. There are people who actually believe that Jiraiya can react to V2 Raikage and 7th Gate Gai.


My post was 100% ironic, lol

I would never compare an utility technique with Kaguya's dimensional shifting


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## Sapherosth (Feb 16, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> My post was 100% ironic, lol
> 
> I would never compare an utility technique with Kaguya's dimensional shifting



I am just pointing out that he isn't underrated at all. He's overly wanked in general. 

I already know your comparison with Kaguya's dimension was a light hearted joke.

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## J★J♥ (Feb 16, 2017)

J★J♥ said:


> Base guy runs through Jiraya.
> A lot of people think that Guy kicking Jiraya in the face was a goof, but manga proved over and over that there is a very thin lane between comedy and reality of Guys character.
> Guy is a goofy character and that is costing him a lot of reputation, but every time someone mentions his strength they either show a massive respect for him or flat out say that he is stronger than X character. It seemed like a goof until guy went and beat the shit out of literal god.


I took few more minutes to think about Guy kicking Jiraya in the face in part 1 and people thinking that it was just a goof and here is the conclusion.

Unless you think that Chuunin with henge justu can kill Jiraya you have no right to say that it was a gag scene.


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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Nope, that was a barrier and space/time jutsu too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. But I meant a barrier that lived in the real world, not in a different dimension.

Doesn't matter. Unfortunately for you, Jiraiya had his battle off panel. So how he got that Pain dragged into the Toad dimension is unknown. Therefore, sad day for those users who want to somehow use that against Gai.

But if I understood the technique correctly, that the toad has to wrap it's tongue around Gai and swallow him. Then good luck. Because with no feats suggesting it can overpower Gai without having its tongue shoved up it's ass, I wouldn't bother posting about it.


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## Rai (Feb 16, 2017)

7th Gate Gai should take this.

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2017)

Anonymous: "lol, 7G Gai wins cuz Jiraiya can't escape Hirudora."
Me: "You do know that Jiraiya has exhibited some of the most spectacular feats in Katon, so he wouldn't even need to dodge it right? Hirudora is devoured and sent back as a more devastating attack against Gai."
Shitty logic, Hirudora ain't one-shotting Jiraiya.

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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 16, 2017)

Jiraiya is very good at stalling and is very good at keeping his distance because of versatility. If he reaches Sage Mode (which I don't think he can), then he wins. I don't think he can reach Sage Mode at this distance when Gai knows his ability and hype as a legendary character. His only chance is tricking Gai and being able to stall until he reaches Sage Mode, but Gai won't let that happen under these stipulations.

Gai most likely one-shots with Hirudora. Base Jiraiya can't react to or keep up with Gai in 7th Gate.


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## Jad (Feb 16, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> Jiraiya is very good at stalling and is very good at keeping his distance because of versatility. If he reaches Sage Mode (which I don't think he can), then he wins. I don't think he can reach Sage Mode at this distance when Gai knows his ability and hype as a legendary character. His only chance is tricking Gai and being able to stall until he reaches Sage Mode, but Gai won't let that happen under these stipulations.
> 
> Gai most likely one-shots with Hirudora. Base Jiraiya can't react to or keep up with Gai in 7th Gate.


What would the difference make between SM against Gated Gai?

Gai will ensure a CQC encounter and if he gets hit by one ghost punch, he learns his lesson and avoids his swings by a wide margin (Lee did the same against Dosu). He just hits Jiraiya in his blindspots  (Gaara vs. Lee) and considering how grossly out matched in speed he is, it will be one sided.

Gated users always force CQC and overwhelm. I've never seen a Gated user get stalled when they are full attack mode. It's always up close, hard and fast. Leaves the opponent no room for counter. Hence Gates was meant to beat Neji because it was meant for continuous attacking. All Gated users have a track record of forcing themselves on the opponent for CQC exchanges.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

Turrin's explanation is precisely why I would give Jiraiya the match regardless of the advantages Gai might have because the only move that could decisively kill Jiraiya is AT whereas Jiraiya has other advantages he can employ, the ones that are paramount if Jiraiya's eminence in Katon. Jiraiya's Katon would not only devour Hirudora immediately upon contact and flourish because of it, but Senpo Goemon is predominately Toad Oil ignited at over thousands of degrees which means that Morning Peacock would latch onto Jiraiya's attack and fuel his oil consequently. Both of Gai's primary offenses are double-edged blades because they're essentially used to bolster Jiraiya's already marvelous firepower as it is and they certainly aren't potent enough to expunge Gai's attacks in comparison to Jiraiya's who has. Base Jiraiya's Katon against Orochimaru remains to be one of the more phenomenal feats of Katon and is further amplified by Sage Mode and Ma's Fuuton.

Overall, SM Jiraiya would win with difficulty, Gai's  strongest attacks are essentially food for Jiraiya.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 17, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> 7th Gate Gai.


Kakashi able to track
Kisame able to react


Sapherosth said:


> V2 Raikage


Tsunade able to track
Sasuke able to track
Gaara able to react
Tsunade reacted to madara before the fastest version of Raikage did . (this not means Tsunade is faster than Raikage. I just clarify,, He is not inevidable or unreactable char at all.)

due to feats from manga.



t0xeus said:


> My post was 100% ironic, lol


But Saph still falls into it thanks to his rancor  


Jad said:


> Ok. But I meant a barrier that lived in the real world, not in a different dimension.
> 
> Doesn't matter. Unfortunately for you, Jiraiya had his battle off panel. So how he got that Pain dragged into the Toad dimension is unknown. Therefore, sad day for those users who want to somehow use that against Gai.
> 
> But if I understood the technique correctly, that the toad has to wrap it's tongue around Gai and swallow him. Then good luck. Because with no feats suggesting it can overpower Gai without having its tongue shoved up it's ass, I wouldn't bother posting about it.


Dude why unfortunately for me ? I never said Jiraiya win cuz of that barrier.. I just corrected your knowledge ı already said "That user a bit exegerate about barrier" So why you responded like that was my case ?  

Plus your  avoidin' attempt abour that barrier is kinda funny  When Gai or any other flashy Dude did something special, yeah lets all we excited about and lets exxegerate this  But when Jiraiya shows some great feat and jutsu.. Lets ignore it and underestimate it  I like that approach of the general of this forum 

Off Panel ? He stalemated with 6 path of pain for a little amount of  time when his arm already ripped off. Thats mean no ninjutsu ?We dont need any panel to understand how tough and resourcefull Jiraiya are!! 6 Paths didnt able to prevent and act on it and one of them sucked into to in an instant ? How Gai overcome..

Plus if you try to read wikia and DB descriptions of that barrier.. ITs clearly states "ıf  Toad warp its toungue around something its gonna sucked in" who or what doesnt mean anything to barrier. (Except so much powerfull beings probably able to shook off).

Its a space/time jutsu not a physicall act.. So 7th Gate aint gonna shook that off.. But like ı said that barrier was never been my case at all. Even ı didnt bring that up.. I just showed "thats a barrier jutsu and this is how it works" Thats all  But you're paniced and respond it like ı just said "That barrier is awesome its gonna oneshots to Gai"  


Jad said:


> I've never seen a Gated user get stalled when they are full attack mode


Then How Gaara overcome to Lee so easily ? Or How Kisame's fake clone able to react  6th Gate ? .. Or how Minato able to track and interfere a 8th Gate strike.
Or how kisame able to send his daikodan almost same time with Gai's Hirudora ?




Jad said:


> Lee did the same against Dosu


Lee saved by Neji and after Sasuke.. He didnt shook off Dosu by himself 

KCM is similar to Gates more than SM.

Boosting speed and strength even more than SM. But senses accuracy and durability wise SM better thats why Naruto pick SM for confrontin' with 3rd Raikage (who is faster,stronger and far more durable than 7th Gate Gai)

So SM kinda have this resume and feats so how Gates looks more dominant to senjutsu   6th Gate Gai can deal with 3rd Raikage in a second ? I dont think so even 7th cant.
SO what you saying about Gates > SM in terms of cqc.. Its not general opinion and aint portrated like that.. That is a subjective claim at all.


Jad said:


> Gaara vs. Lee


Yeah that example realy helped you 




Jad said:


> considering how grossly out matched in speed he is, it will be one sided


He even didnt look one sided against tattared Kisame.. How its gonna one sided against Jiraiya specialy when he is in SM ?

Dude all you talk is out ot the parameters of manga but more close to your own sentimental arguments.

And getting in cqc is pretty bad option for Gai.. Cuz due to his hair Jiraiya has many extra limbs for attack (like kakuzu's tendrills but even more powerfull) . And If Jiraiya able to hold gai even for 1 second.. He can turn Gai a freaking frog ...

And ı already said my ex-messages.. Gai Hirudora has similar(not same) effect and feat to Tsunade's byakugo punch due to what they did to Madara's v3 susanos.
And Same Jiraiya (when he is in base) tanked Tsunade's freakin punches in daily basics (no one try to sell me "They're friends, its aint something serious" shit. Jiriaya consider as his first near dying experiment in the end) .

So adding SM durability on Base and adding SM juiced Hari Jizo on that durability ..... The Hirudora which aint able to kill Base Kisame how gonna pass SM Durability and Hari Jizo and anything jiraiya released ?!

So even in wildest dreams   Hirudora aint a one shot jutsu and its never portrayed as it.

Locaiton works more for Jiraiya, Gai's singularity works more for Jiraiya.

He has Kuchiyose and SM and Defensive assets against Gates..

Portrayal and Reputation clearly grand a victory for J-Man.

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

J★J♥ said:


> Base guy runs through Jiraya.
> A lot of people think that Guy kicking Jiraya in the face was a goof, but manga proved over and over that there is a very thin lane between comedy and reality of Guys character.
> Guy is a goofy character and that is costing him a lot of reputation, but every time someone mentions his strength they either show a massive respect for him or flat out say that he is stronger than X character. It seemed like a goof until guy went and beat the shit out of literal god.



I agree, Base Gai's level of speed is surely enough to slaughter SM Jiraiya immediately.

Well, if this is your erroneous, fanfic version of Base Gai who has "Yellow Flash" speed and reflexes.

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## J★J♥ (Feb 17, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I agree, Base Gai's level of speed is surely enough to slaughter SM Jiraiya immediately.
> 
> Well, if this is your erroneous, fanfic version of Base Gai who has "Yellow Flash" speed and reflexes.


First of all failed attempt at sarcasm wont win you anything. Second Yellow Flash speed is shit. 3rd if you don't have anything to say you don't have to say something retarded.

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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2017)

7 Gates Gai is so overrated. 
Kishi clearly showed that Gai is around the same level as Kisame. Even then, Kisame is always at a disadvantage, more or less.

A: Gai Vs Kisame in Konoha.

It was a brief encounter that set the stone for their "rivalry" so to speak. And the battle was cut short.

B: Gai Vs Kisame (30%).

Gai had his team alongside him, and even then he needed 6 gates just to defeat that 30% clone of Kisame.

C: Gai Vs Kisame

Even if we assume that Kisame was able to recover all of his power after absorbing B's chakra. This time he lacked his sword
which enables him to me much stronger and uses the Shark-mode. This time, in order to defeat Kisame, Gai needed 7 gates, and even
after a direct hit, it's like Kisame died or got a visible damage on his body. 


Now, Jiraiya, even without SM, has 5 in strength like Kisame. Not to mention, it's the same character whose Kisame said that their levels
are too far apart. 


People love his "feet" against Asspulldara (even tho Asspulldara just decided to go backward for whatever reason rather than counterattack him). That is NOT Kishi trying to tell us "oh look, 7 Gates Gai is on JJ Asspulldara level. "



By this logic, everyone of the 5 Kages is on Edo Asspulldara level because they either hit him directly or forced him to go backward as well. This is just dumb logic.  


and there are numerous examples of other characters as well doing different things. People should be able to differentiate between those different stuff when they happen.


you don't see someone going around saying Lee is stronger than Edo Asspulldara or Hashirama because he was able to cut Asspulldara in half for example.

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## Ryuzaki (Feb 17, 2017)

7th Gate > V2 Raikage and Jiraiya

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## Ayala (Feb 17, 2017)

Hussain, Gai floored Kisame's shoten in the 6th Gate, it was overkill, a merciless stomp. It was also solo.

The second time, he opened 7 gates to get the scroll, no need to downplay.  In fact he launched Hirudora to kill the sharks who were underwater, Kisame was a secondary objective. Like Troyse always loves to say, Kisame" died" in the crossfire.

Kisame also murders Jiraya in brute strength, Gai has a 5 in strength too but Kisame was too much for him in base.

Also no Uchiha, by the time Hirudora is launched, Jiraya isn't countering with a Katon, the hell is this. Madara couldn't complete his swing two times in Hirudora's face. Not to mention it wouldn't do nothing, Hirudora is not a wind jutsu, it doesn't have to do with elemental chakra jutsu.

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## Jad (Feb 17, 2017)

Don't understand the Katon being used to send back Hirudora.
Don't understand Gai being Kisame's equal after one-side stomping him twice.
Don't understand how Gai outperforming 4 Kage in skill and power with pure Taijutsu against Madara in 7th Gate, twice, isn't impressive.
Don't understand how Gai being praised by Gaara, Bee, Hachibi, Naruto (KCM), Itachi, Kakashi, Kisame, Obito and Zetsu on separate occasions isn't still somehow at a level to compete with Jiraiya.
Don't understand how Kisame saying Morning Peacock can kill him, doesn't allude to the fact that Hirudora which is more powerful but didn't kill him, wasn't meant to incapacitate. Especially when Gai acknowledged Aoba about capturing Kisame.
Don't understand how Hirudora isn't hyped to be a kill jutsu when it's stated several times in Manga (by opponents and Gai) and Databook.
AND I especially don't understand how Jiraiya can complete with Gai in Taijutsu with 6th and 7th Gates opened when this dude was being reacted by Pain bodies. Hell one of them even blocked his attack with perfect ease and not a flinch. You need to reassert your opinion if this is your point because there is nothing short of hell freezing over will it be right. It's not even up for debate. If your plan is for Jiraiya to take Gai on in Taijutsu, he cops a beating so hard he wished he could be written in a different manga.

Yes, if Jiraiya throws a ghost punch and Gai gets hit, it's because Gai didn't know. Next one won't be a cheap shot, because since base Gai can move his upper body significantly in any direction during a Kamui warp of his Nunchuku, you better believe he isn't even catching the breeze off Jraiya's swings with Gates activated. Let me repeat, Base Gai moving his body during the Kamui warp of his small Nunchuku, before it could even finish, is vastly superior in speed than ANYTHING Jiraiya has shown in terms of swinging for a punch or kicking.

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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Hussain, Gai floored Kisame's shoten in the 6th Gate, it was overkill, a merciless stomp. It was also solo.
> 
> The second time, he opened 7 gates to get the scroll, no need to downplay.  In fact he launched Hirudora to kill the sharks who were underwater, Kisame was a secondary objective. Like Troyse always loves to say, Kisame" died" in the crossfire.
> 
> ...



1- that was only 30% of Kisame power tho. And no, it was not "really" solo, as the clone needed to make 3 extra clones to defeat his team.

2- Lol, no. Kisame was the primary object as it headed directly to him. Had the tiger headed to the sharks underwater, then you would have a point, but it wasn't. 

3- In term of strength they both have 5. The point is, there is no proof that the AT will kill Jiraiya, especially if he is in SM. 

- Asspulldara DID counter Gai's AT. I don't know from where people came up with the nonsense that he couldn't lol. 


But yeah, the Katon argument sounds ridiculous. lol

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## Ayala (Feb 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> 1- that was only 30% of Kisame power tho. And no, it was not "really" solo, as the clone needed to make 3 extra clones to defeat his team.
> 
> 2- Lol, no. Kisame was the primary object as it headed directly to him. Had the tiger headed to the sharks underwater, then you would have a point, but it wasn't.
> 
> ...



1. 30% of chakra, not general capacity. It was solo as the fodder squad had already been rendered useless. 

2. Im on phone and it's a pain to search for panels, but it goes like this;

Kisame puts the scroll in one of his 1000 sharks and launchs it. Gai manages to vaporize some of them, but notices the others had gone underwater and were running away. So Gai goes underwater and says he has to expand the blast radius. Hirudora comes out. Take a look at what Gai went after first, the scroll or Kisame. It's the scroll, he got the scroll first and then goes to immobilize Kisame.

3. And I said Gai and Kisame both have 5 in strength, and Gai has been portrayed above Jiraya in physical stats, yet was overpowered by Kisame. 

The AT landed before Madara could complete his swing once, my bad. Juuspulldara managed to swing in time. Point being it's very fast.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> 1. 30% of chakra, not general capacity. It was solo as the fodder squad had already been rendered useless.
> 
> 2. Im on phone and it's a pain to search for panels, but it goes like this;
> 
> ...



1- Chakra is what allow the characters to be able to different things. Had it not been for chakra, there wouldn't have been any different between Yamato and Hashirama for example. 

2- 
improved upon it
They are directly headed to each other. You can see in the last panel that the AT was right in front of Kisame 2.

3- Where was Gai portrayed above Jiraiya in physical stats? Just curious. 

improved upon it
>Gai was about to use his AT,
> Asspulldara noticed 

improved upon it
Asspulldara countered.


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## Ayala (Feb 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> 1- Chakra is what allow the characters to be able to different things. Had it not been for chakra, there wouldn't have been any different between Yamato and Hashirama for example.
> 
> 2-
> improved upon it
> ...



1. I agree he could have used bigger jutsu as he said (probably talking waterdome, Daikodan and shit), but what importance does that make when Gai just pushed the whole lake to the side and left him mid air, ready to be taken down? Nothing would save him in that scenario, he couldn't even swing his arm before he got sent flying away, and swinging a sword is faster than launching jutsu. 6 gated Gai was much superior. 

2. It doesn't matter where it headed, it had to head somewhere, point is Gai didn't do nothing for Kisame. It's literally written and explained in the manga. Scroll comes first, scroll is Gai's focus and motivation to go 7 gates, and scroll is what Gai goes and gets first. 

3. Him having immense destructive power with his nunchaku, directly from Tobi, him being praised in the databooks for his physical attributes and him training his whole life in physical attributes only.  I wonder what Jiraya showed to be on par with Kisame though. 


 I already said Juudara reacted in time lol. Normal Madara was sent crashing away with his Susano'o.


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## Veracity (Feb 17, 2017)

Jirayia doesn't even have a 5 in strength lol, I'm not sure where that came from.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 17, 2017)

How is this even debatable? I could understand Gai vs. Raikage being debatable but Jiraiya on his own is going to get solo'd

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

Hussain said:


> But yeah, the Katon argument sounds ridiculous. lol



 Ah right, same guy who believes FRS > Amaterasu.

 Nah, Katon overpowers Air Pressure and flourishes because of it. As long as Katon is executed punctually, then Jiraiya can overpower it. This shouldn't be an issue since Kisame had the liberty of responding to it, but this is presuming that Jiraiya maintains his distance.

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Also no Uchiha, by the time Hirudora is launched, Jiraya isn't countering with a Katon, the hell is this. Madara couldn't complete his swing two times in Hirudora's face. Not to mention it wouldn't do nothing, Hirudora is not a wind jutsu, it doesn't have to do with elemental chakra jutsu.



Both were done at close-range, something I'm not advocating here; Jiraiya has the means to escape Gai and the means to immobilize him with his adhesive oil.

I'm not sure where you're getting at, Katon has the advantage against Fuuton because oxygen is intrinsic to fire; it has nothing to do with chakra much like how Suiton douses flames because that's their inherent interaction which is not predetermined by chakra. I'm not sure how arrived to that conclusion, but it's atrocious.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 17, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Both were done at close-range, something I'm not advocating here; Jiraiya has the means to escape Gai and the means to immobilize him with his adhesive oil.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're getting at, Katon has the advantage against Fuuton because oxygen is intrinsic to fire; it has nothing to do with chakra much like how Suiton douses flames because that's their inherent interaction which is not predetermined by chakra. I'm not sure how arrived to that conclusion, but it's atrocious.




Are you telling me that Hirudora can be countered by katon?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Are you telling me that Hirudora can be countered by katon?



Jiraiya's Katon is among the best in the manga, so he can.

Somone like Sasuke and Kakashi would be incapable of doing so for obvious reasons.

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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2017)

When Yamato explains the interaction of Wind and Fire, he uses the natural occuring elements as an example, thus it doesn't seem like the elemental superiority of Fire over Wind is limited only to Fire and Wind Techniques born from Charka, but to the elements themselves:


Given this a powerful enough Katon should overcome Gai's Wind Based AT

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2017)

Turrin said:


> When Yamato explains the interaction of Wind and Fire, he uses the natural occuring elements as an example, thus it doesn't seem like the elemental superiority of Fire over Wind is limited only to Fire and Wind Techniques born from Charka, but to the elements themselves:
> 
> 
> Given this a powerful enough Katon should overcome Gai's Wind Based AT



 Yep, intrinsic properties take precedence over chakra. The only role that chakra plays is instrumental; an attack's potency within a collision is dependent upon the chakra integrated within the attack which makes sense since a drop of water won't douse a boisterous wild-fire which pertains to reality anyways.

 Since chakra is adapted to inherit intrinsic properties of elements, I see no reason why chakra would be the causal reason for why the elemental wheel actually exists.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Jiraiya's Katon is among the best in the manga, so he can.





So I assume suddenly we're ignoring ALL relevant Uchiha and Hiruzen?

Give me a break with this Uchiha, I sincerely hope you're joking.



Sapherosth said:


> Are you telling me that Hirudora can be countered by katon?



Jiraiya is a Sannin, he uses Katon, but the title "Sannin" automatically gives his Katon an inexplicable boost. His Katon would one shot Kaguya, no diff


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So I assume suddenly we're ignoring ALL relevant Uchiha and Hiruzen?
> 
> Give me a break with this Uchiha, I sincerely hope you're joking.



 I said, "Among the best," not "the best". Actually having good reading comprehension goes a long way, I suggest you start learning.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I said, "Among the best," not "the best". Actually having good reading comprehension goes a long way, I suggest you start learning.



Except he's not even in the same league as other high tier Katon users.

The manga, I suggest you start reading it


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Except he's not even in the same league as other high tier Katon users.
> 
> The manga, I suggest you start reading it



 Lol, compared to who? Only Madara and Obito who are better than him decisively and Hiruzen is arguably better, the rest do not compare. Jiraiya's Katon can easily encompass an area of multiple Boss Summons and this was without assistance of any of the Boss Toads. With them, it would've easily been more stupendous.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Except he's not even in the same league as other high tier Katon users.
> 
> The manga, I suggest you start reading it


Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Obito, Hiruzen, Jirayia(excluding Riduko level characters). 

Assuming he's dead last, he's the 6th best Katon user in the manga, that's among the best tbh.


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 18, 2017)

Unlike uchihas like itachi hebi sasuke jiraiya can use katon in combo with his summons and his combo katon dwarfed bunta itself


Then we have senpou goemon that covered a large AOE with a boiling oil

So if this is not considered to be in leagues with high Katon what is? Infact it is better than all basic Katon itachi , war arc sasuke uses  may be better than bakufu runbu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

Uhhh I guess it's a separate thread matter but how is Hiruzen beating Jiraiya in any matter especially Katon I don't remember him showing anything near Jiraiya's combinations and scale.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> Uhhh I guess it's a separate thread matter but how is Hiruzen beating Jiraiya in any matter especially Katon I don't remember him showing anything near Jiraiya's combinations and scale.



 That's why I said "arguably". Hiruzen has the benefit of the most spectacular Futon ever executed in the manga which would bolster the potency of his already stupendous flames substantially while Jiraiya has the contributions of both Fuuton and Toad Oil.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Obito, Hiruzen, Jirayia(excluding Riduko level characters).
> 
> Assuming he's dead last, he's the 6th best Katon user in the manga, that's among the best tbh.



Except the gap between the relevant Uchiha and Jiraiya is beyond all respectable measure.

He can be the 6th best all he wants, the gap is so big it doesn't matter.




professor83 said:


> Unlike uchihas like itachi hebi sasuke jiraiya can use katon in combo with his summons and his combo katon dwarfed bunta itself
> 
> 
> Then we have senpou goemon that covered a large AOE with a boiling oil
> ...




Lol.

So we can include Jiraiyas Katon COMBOS, but not include any combos for the Uchiha? Or no Yoton or Enton?

This is Sannin wank at its peak, hopefully it dies down soon, this is out of control

Reactions: Creative 1


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

No one in their right mind compares Jiraiya to the top uchiha because they're all god tiers at their peak. That doesn't mean he isn't high kage and if that's considered "wank" it's been that way for years it won't "end soon".


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## Skilatry (Feb 18, 2017)

Jad said:


> Gai will ensure a CQC encounter and if he gets hit by one ghost punch, he learns his lesson and avoids his swings by a wide margin (Lee did the same against Dosu).



If he gets hit by a ghost punch, he dies.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Except the gap between the relevant Uchiha and Jiraiya is beyond all respectable measure.
> 
> He can be the 6th best all he wants, the gap is so big it doesn't matter.



Not really. Gimped Jirayia + Bunta created a Katon damn near Juubi size before part 2 inflation.

Sage J + B> Base J + B> Gimped J + B. In terms of pure size Jirayia and Bunta can create something bigger than any Katon in the manga. To say that he isn't one of the best Katon users just because he uses Oil to create a Katon the size of the Juubi is crazy.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> No one in their right mind compares Jiraiya to the top uchiha because they're all god tiers at their peak. That doesn't mean he isn't high kage and if that's considered "wank" it's been that way for years it won't "end soon".




Lol.

So Itachi was god tier at his peak?

EMS Madara was not god tier, and he'd shit down Jiraiyas throat with his Katon, combo or not.

EMS Sasuke was not god tier, same thing

MS Itachi not god tier, same thing

MS Obito, same thing

Mei was never god tier, same thing (yoton)

Hiruzen never god tier, same thing.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Not really. Gimped Jirayia + Bunta created a Katon damn near Juubi size before part 2 inflation.
> 
> Sage J + B> Base J + B> Gimped J + B. In terms of pure size Jirayia and Bunta can create something bigger than any Katon in the manga. To say that he isn't one of the best Katon users just because he uses Oil to create a Katon the size of the Juubi is crazy.




Go ahead and delete that, I'll let you


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Go ahead and delete that, I'll let you


Don't cop out, refute it.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Don't cop out, refute it.



Bigger than any Katon in the manga? Jiraiya ma and Pa only flooded a small room...

Meanwhile we have Itachi burning forests down and Sasuke with his "Spam"aterasu throughout the entire war.

Madara using Katon that made the Gokage stop in their tracks until Mei put it out with Suiton 

Or him lighting an entire self made forest until Onoki put it out with Jinton?


"Biggest Katon in the manga" ha.Ha.ha.

I gave you a chance to delete it man


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lol.
> 
> So Itachi was god tier at his peak?
> 
> ...


Okay so I said Uchiha and you listed non Uchiha. 

And Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara comfortably beat everyone in the Manga apart from fellow top tiers. It's not surprising their Jutsu are strong that's just matter of fact. Their clan is predominantly futon and they have sharringan to learn any jutsu.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> Okay so I said Uchiha and you listed non Uchiha.
> 
> And Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara comfortably beat everyone in the Manga apart from fellow top tiers. It's not surprising their Jutsu are strong that's just matter of fact. Their clan is predominantly futon and they have sharringan to learn any jutsu.




Concession accepted.

One down two to go.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bigger than any Katon in the manga? Jiraiya ma and Pa only flooded a small room...
> 
> Meanwhile we have Itachi burning forests down and Sasuke with his "Spam"aterasu throughout the entire war.
> 
> ...



Bruh, the Katon Jirayia used in the room clearly wasn't his peak level Katon, which goes for every Katon user in the manga. Plus the fact that he didn't need that Katon to be Bjuii sized lol. The Katon Madara created when he was first revived was like 1/10 the size of the Katon he made later with Obito:
Naruto's dialogue along with his confident expression
Naruto's dialogue along with his confident expression

Okay, now Part 1 Jirayia( in part 1 the AoE of justu was much smaller) in the Sannin deadlock was so gimped he could barely summon Bunta, but he still could create an oil enhanced Katon this large:
Naruto's dialogue along with his confident expression
And Jirayia himself is this big compared to Bunta:
Naruto's dialogue along with his confident expression
Okay so now you know that nobody is playing with you right? Nobody is gassing up the Sannin hype, Jirayia simply created a Katon that made Bunta look like a aglet.

Now you know that Base Jirayia could have made something much larger because he wasn't drugged and you know Sage Mode adds a huge boost to elemental techinques.. Therefore Sage Jirayia could make something atleast twice as big as he did in Part 1, which would be around the size of the Katon that Madara/Obito made.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> If he gets hit by a ghost punch, he dies.


Prove it.


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Both were done at close-range, something I'm not advocating here; Jiraiya has the means to escape Gai and the means to immobilize him with his adhesive oil.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're getting at, Katon has the advantage against Fuuton because oxygen is intrinsic to fire; it has nothing to do with chakra much like how Suiton douses flames because that's their inherent interaction which is not predetermined by chakra. I'm not sure how arrived to that conclusion, but it's atrocious.



I don't know about that quite honestly, a strong wind will always push flames back. Meanwhile, Yamato says that his wind jutsu will only make his flame grow bigger (something that doesn't really happen just like that) and just get pushed back in the user's face. Normally it doesn't work like that, but with jutsu it seems like it does. 

Just like wind and lightning, the superiority of wind to lightning is something i heard off only in Naruto when talking their elemental advantages.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 18, 2017)

By the time Jiraiya gets a katon ready Gai would have landed a few hits in base let alone Gates. 

Make this SM Jiraiya and we have a debate


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

What I don't understand is how does Jiraiya

A. React to Hirudora when it could intercept Madara before he could finish a point blank swing at Naruto from almost a hundred meters distance? I swear, people keep bringing up that panel of Kisame reacting and firing Daikodan at Gai but seem WEIRDLY absent minded to know shit travels slower underwater.
B. Jiraiya knows Hirudora explodes. He has manga knowledge. He'll think its just a chakra attack.


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

How much time does it take to enter 7th gate? Jiraiya has a pretty massive defensive arsenal and since the location is Konoha he has a lot of evasive locations to enter sage mode.


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> How much time does it take to enter 7th gate? Jiraiya has a pretty massive defensive arsenal and since the location is Konoha he has a lot of evasive locations to enter sage mode.


What does it matter. Gai engages CQC distance at match start. Jiraiya won't instinctly go in hiding. He never did that in any fight his been in that I know of. Not unless the fight was one sided for a time.

Thing is Gai has no mindset to let fights carry on unless it's teamed and even then. Gai hits zero to hundred very quickly in fights. In fact he may hit 5 or 6 Gates immediately knowing his up against a Sannin.

Gai only fought in base at start of battle twice. Against Kisame and against Seven swords men. Isn't that funny for people who claim that Gai slowly builds to using Gates as a fight drags on.

He engaged with Gates opened at the start of battle against:
1. Obito to save Naruto
2. Madara three times
3. Kisame final battle
4. Six paths Jinchuuriki / Six Tails Bijuu
5. Not sure, but possibly Gedomazo


Hell. Lee opened Gates just to throw a Kunai


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

Well it matters since the technique you mentioned has only been shown in 7th gate... I'm legitimately asking because I don't have a victor in mind from the beginning I'm actually trying to learn and figure it out through communication. 

Jiraiya was evasive in his battle against Pain. There's no need to speculate the battle conditions it's just flat out part of his strategy in battle. Not to mention his "research", integral to his character, was all about stealth. He wasn't stealthy against the other Sannin because he knew them, was drugged, and that would be dumb. But he's very adapt at gurriella tactics.


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well it matters since the technique you mentioned has only been shown in 7th gate... I'm legitimately asking because I don't have a victor in mind from the beginning I'm actually trying to learn and figure it out through communication.
> 
> Jiraiya was evasive in his battle against Pain. There's no need to speculate the battle conditions it's just flat out part of his strategy in battle. Not to mention his "research", integral to his character, was all about stealth. He wasn't stealthy against the other Sannin because he knew them, was drugged, and that would be dumb. But he's very adapt at gurriella tactics.


I have the panels right infront of me. He didn't choose to hide and use Gureilla tactics until later on during his battle with the three Pains. And techniqually he only chose that path way of fighting because of their shared sight. Jiraiya was about to engage Itachi and Kisame in a closed off room for all intent and purposes. He didn't try Gureilla tactics against Itachi and Kisame. He did the OPPOSITE. He came in with a flashy entrance.


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

I understand that it's not something he would do immediately but given the location it's something that's going to be easier than if it were in an open field. 

And Gai just doesn't seem to have major destructive capabilities until the 7th gate but I don't remember his showings early on. Jiraiya has shown the durability of any Jounin at the very least.


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> I understand that it's not something he would do immediately but given the location it's something that's going to be easier than if it were in an open field.
> 
> And Gai just doesn't seem to have major destructive capabilities until the 7th gate but I don't remember his showings early on. Jiraiya has shown the durability of any Jounin at the very least.


Well for one Kisame stated Morning Peacock could kill him. And Gai destroyed the Coral on KCM Naruto's back which he couldn't break, using less than 5 Gates. As well as Gai in 6 or less Gates tripping Gedomazou which to me is impressive to say the least. And considering Obito was impressed with Gai's strength enough to comment about it - considering what his seen throughout his life.

And believe it or not, but if Lee in base with Kyuubi cloak can slice Madara in half, Gai surely can if he approached his kick in the exact same manner. I say this because Kyuubi cloak didn't give Naruto strength that surpassed Gai.

I think any Gated strength 4 or above will harm Jiraiya, SM or not. Escepially if he lands his combo moves on him.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 18, 2017)

Gai likely doesn't even need anything past the 5th gate to have an overt advantage over Base Jiraiya. I don't understand why the discussion is stemming to Hirudora.


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## Anbu Knights (Feb 18, 2017)

Gai goes 7th right off the bat and shoves a tiger down his throat.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> I don't know about that quite honestly, a strong wind will always push flames back. Meanwhile, Yamato says that his wind jutsu will only make his flame grow bigger (something that doesn't really happen just like that) and just get pushed back in the user's face. Normally it doesn't work like that, but with jutsu it seems like it does.



Doesn't seem all that strange to me at all.



> Just like wind and lightning, the superiority of wind to lightning is something i heard off only in Naruto when talking their elemental advantages.



Yeah, because Yamato and Naruto are both dealing with elements. This doesn't really prove how wind and lightning's relationship is extrinsic; only caused by chakra. That said, Zetsu's description of Kirin denotes no dissimilarity between lightning composed of chakra and intrinsic lightning, so it's very clear that elements are precisely molded into the elements of nature.


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## Skilatry (Feb 18, 2017)

Jad said:


> Prove it.



*Spoiler*: __ 





If you think Gai survives this, you're delusional.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

Jad said:


> What I don't understand is how does Jiraiya
> 
> A. React to Hirudora when it could intercept Madara before he could finish a point blank swing at Naruto from almost a hundred meters distance? I swear, people keep bringing up that panel of Kisame reacting and firing Daikodan at Gai but seem WEIRDLY absent minded to know shit travels slower underwater.
> B. Jiraiya knows Hirudora explodes. He has manga knowledge. He'll think its just a chakra attack.



I think we know, it's the fact that Kisame had the liberty of launching Daikodan the instant when Hirudora was launched.

Yamato knew about Hirudora, Jiraiya most likely did as well. Besides, he can distinguish between chakra and natural energy via Sage Sensing.


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Doesn't seem all that strange to me at all.




That flame didn't grow to burn the house down, and it didn't even blow back in the kid's face 

But Naruto said wind mangnifies fire and if you blow wind ....


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> That flame didn't grow to burn the house down, and it didn't even blow back in the kid's face
> 
> But Naruto said wind mangnifies fire and if you blow wind ....



She's exhaling Carbon Dioxide which I'm certain is found in Fire Extinguishers, obviously it would deviate from Naruto's logic.

 I'm certain this interaction between fire and wind was derived by how oxygen fuels flames which is true.


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> She's exhaling Carbon Dioxide which I'm certain is found in Fire Extinguishers, obviously it would deviate from Naruto's logic.
> 
> I'm certain this interaction between fire and wind was derived by how oxygen fuels flames which is true.



Come on man, please man, don't... You just wanna argue at this point. Why do people put their hands in front of the lighter when the wind is blowing? Because the wind sets the flame off if they don't. Fucking hell man, making me search actual examples for base facts like this


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Come on man, please man, don't... You just wanna argue at this point. Why do people put their hands in front of the lighter when the wind is blowing? Because the wind sets the flame off if they don't. Fucking hell man, making me search actual examples for base facts like this



Obviously considering it's a tiny bit of flames in comparison to a more powerful gust of wind. Doesn't discredit anything. 

 But yeah, oxygen fuels flames; common sense dictates that's what Kishimoto is referring to. What's funny is that you deliberately ignored my previous argument and expected me to forget about it.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 18, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Bruh, the Katon Jirayia used in the room clearly wasn't his peak level Katon, which goes for every Katon user in the manga. Plus the fact that he didn't need that Katon to be Bjuii sized lol. The Katon Madara created when he was first revived was like 1/10 the size of the Katon he made later with Obito:
> Rasengan's power is contingent upon Chakra, Chakra Compression, and Rotational Energy
> Rasengan's power is contingent upon Chakra, Chakra Compression, and Rotational Energy
> 
> ...



Not sure what the point of all this is.

Are you saying Bunta is above Ma and Pa?

Goemon, Jiraiya's strongest Katon tech only filled a small room.

To the strong Uchiha, that's childs play

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Obviously considering it's a tiny bit of flames in comparison to a more powerful gust of wind. Doesn't discredit anything.
> 
> But yeah, oxygen fuels flames; common sense dictates that's what Kishimoto is referring to. What's funny is that you deliberately ignored my previous argument and expected me to forget about it.




"At low wind speeds, the wind removes the products of combustion and replaces them with oxygen... so the vaporized fuel and oxygen can combine at a faster rate... leading to more heat density, warming up more fuel, which has more oxygen to combine with , and so on - so the wind feeds the fire.

At high speeds, it removes the vaporized fuel before it has had a chance to combust near enough to the rest of the vaporized and unvaporized fuel - thus the heat density is actually lowered and the fire ultimately goes out."

Meanwhile in Naruto, flame gets bigger (no fuel,just wind) and blows the wind back .




 Gai says it's not some gust of wind, it's a "blast of pressurized air"



Kisame sure got wrecked badly


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> "At low wind speeds, the wind removes the products of combustion and replaces them with oxygen... so the vaporized fuel and oxygen can combine at a faster rate... leading to more heat density, warming up more fuel, which has more oxygen to combine with , and so on - so the wind feeds the fire.
> 
> At high speeds, it removes the vaporized fuel before it has had a chance to combust near enough to the rest of the vaporized and unvaporized fuel - thus the heat density is actually lowered and the fire ultimately goes out."
> 
> ...


Dude it's magic, one may as well say the fire magically has fuel that doesn't dissipate (i.e. Amaterasu)


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> "At low wind speeds, the wind removes the products of combustion and replaces them with oxygen... so the vaporized fuel and oxygen can combine at a faster rate... leading to more heat density, warming up more fuel, which has more oxygen to combine with , and so on - so the wind feeds the fire.
> 
> At high speeds, it removes the vaporized fuel before it has had a chance to combust near enough to the rest of the vaporized and unvaporized fuel - thus the heat density is actually lowered and the fire ultimately goes out."
> 
> ...



Good, I don't care, here's what matters:

Wind fuels Fire.
Hirudora is wind.
Kirin is no different than any other lightning jutsu in terms of composition.
Therefore, Hirudora being devoid of chakra is irrelevant, it gets consumed by Jiraiya's Katon regardless.
Everything you stated is just irrelevant.


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

~M~ said:


> Dude it's magic, one may as well say the fire magically has fuel that doesn't dissipate (i.e. Amaterasu)



Don't butt in the middle of discussions that aren't yours as a first... And then, if you really wanna butt in, you read the whole context first.


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## ~M~ (Feb 18, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Don't butt in the middle of discussions that aren't yours as a first... And then, if you really wanna butt in, you read the whole context first.


Son these aren't private messages they're open for everyone and I'll tell you I read the context.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## t0xeus (Feb 18, 2017)

btw why do you guys even think that Jiraiya gets Katon out of his mouth in time before Hirudora hits him?


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Not sure what the point of all this is.
> 
> Are you saying Bunta is above Ma and Pa?
> 
> ...


I legit just showed you step by step exactly why Jirayia can make a Juubi sized Katon. I then showed you how drastically the size of Katon can change depending on how much chakra the user wants/needs to put in the techinque. You ignored all that and reverted to step one. Lmao wow


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 18, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> btw why do you guys even think that Jiraiya gets Katon out of his mouth in time before Hirudora hits him?


He'd be lucky enough to inhale deeply before Gai punches him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Ayala (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Lol, Disliking does nothing, your convoluted explanation as to why Hirudoara doesn't function like wind doesn't discredit that it actually is a pressurized air bomb which is obviously wind. Going by Yamato's statement, Hirudora is overpowered. You're acting as if the elemental wheel is amenable to the nuances of science which is clearly not the case. Kishimoto's explanation is simplistic at best and it entails that Katon feeds off of Hirudora and makes it larger.
> 
> Now stop your bullshitting and answer this question, "Is Hirudora wind?" You have failed to prove that Hirudora would not be absorbed purely because it's not composed of chakra. I provided an example of Kirin which shows that it's composition is like any other lightning style jutsu which thereby debunks the premise of your argument. All you've done is grasp for straws while failing to look at the big-picture.



The jutsu need to be near to equal for that to happen, which isn't the case. Jiraya's normal katon, without using Bunta's fuel isn't anything special. 

Hirudora is comparable to RS in power, which in turn needs a flame like Amaterasu to counter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Feb 18, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai likely doesn't even need anything past the 5th gate to have an overt advantage over Base Jiraiya. I don't understand why the discussion is stemming to Hirudora.



Gai could use at least the 6th Gate in Part I (Lee could use up to the 5th Gate, so unless you think Lee and Gai were equals with the Gates, Gai could use more) and he was never considered someone who could stand up to the Sannin.

5th Gate Gai would get wrecked by Jiraiya's Wild Lion's Mane / hair techniques alone. He can't attack through the spikes, and if he stays in close, he gets drawn and quartered à la giant crab.

Honestly, even 7th Gate Gai doesn't have great portrayal. Gai's 7th Gate was known in Konoha as even someone like Yamato knew about Afternoon Tiger. Yet, Gai was never considered for Hokage at any point in the manga. He was not considered a factor during Pain's invasion (Tsunade was hoping Naruto would return, not Gai; when Gai did return, he was told he would get in the way). He was not considered a secret weapon of the Shinobi Alliance, either. Despite that, this forum seems to think that Gai can defeat established Kage level ninja, including someone as strong as Jiraiya, with little difficulty with a technique that was known in the village. I've even seen a lot of posters claim that 7th Gate Gai can take on two of the Gokage at once and win because of Afternoon Tiger. 

The reality is that the village, which knew about Gai's capabilities in the 7th Gate, did not consider him someone who could easily off Kage, let alone the Sannin. The manga does not support it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 18, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> By the time Jiraiya gets a katon ready Gai would have landed a few hits in base let alone Gates.


IMO, Fire -> backward Hirudora claim is non-sense ı wouldnt say that.. But also ı wouldnt says that too.


*Spoiler*: __ 





You can see how fast Kisame about swinging his samehada. Even Naruto didnt aware about what just happened even after Kisame's explanation he is still looks clueless.. This is same Kisame almost swing his samehada to 6th Gate Gai (but his nerfed version) and same char who is able to send his jutsu almost in the same time with Hirudora. 

Lets look at Kisame's second attempt on Naruto.


Jiraiya came with shunshin to second floor of a building and summonin his summon which is require 5 hand seal.. And he did all of these when he is also carrying a adult woman.. And he even aint look like in a summoning pose or threting pose... That means

Shunshin into a building + Hand Seals + Gama Came + Gama counter Kisame + Jiraiya give a pose 

all of these happened in Kisame's mid-swing (Gama countered on the mid section) + They're realizing about Jiraiya's enterance. 

Lets look Kisame's 3rd attempt;


Kisame only a step away from Naruto and he can strike or can grab naruto in an instant due to his position. And we all know how fast Kisame is (at least for a genin). 

Then this hapened. Gamaguchishibari requres 7 hand seal + hitting your palms to the ground. 
Jiraiya make 7 hand seal and crouch to the floor and tappin his palm on it when Kisame only a step close to Naruto and grab him. 

Same Kisame able to cast a ninjutsu before Gai one shot him. 

So how Jiraiya gonna eat few kicks before he cast a thing ?! 

And ı can duplicate this examples. How he spam yomi numa when Orochimaru charges on him with a giant snake when Jiraiya was in the mid-air. 

Or How Jiraiya get into a barrier against 6 paths of pain w/o an arm .. even pain didnt get understand what happened.. 

So Jiraiya's casting and spamming speed is pretty fine enough to deal with Gai... 

And ı already pointed out at my previous post. SM Durability + Hari Jizo + Any other releases requires a great defense to bypass.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So your proof is a Pain body with no prior durability feats, no hype or portrayl of being tough, is the one reason Gai dies.

Gai, who is stated to have a body like tempered steel in the DB. Who survived the back lash of an unfinished Hirudora at point blank, the size of it comparable to 5% Katsuya. Gai is going to die from one Ghost punch because you found a panel of a fodder dieing to one?

You do know the Pain bodies - besides Deva and Ashura,  are fodder with just God powers.


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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I think we know, it's the fact that Kisame had the liberty of launching Daikodan the instant when Hirudora was launched.
> 
> Yamato knew about Hirudora, Jiraiya most likely did as well. Besides, he can distinguish between chakra and natural energy via Sage Sensing.


You're assuming just because Yamato knows Hirudora, everyone else. That's an over reaching statement since Jiraiya officially left the village during around the time Gai's shinobi years really took off.

Can you prove Sage sensing includes being able to distinguish Jutsu from Taijutsu. Can you also prove Jiraiya can distinguish a Tiger attack to be pressurised Air in order to formulate a counter with Katon? Gai had to explain it to Kisame.

Can you also prove Katon would send back Hirudora. We all know Wind fuels Katon to enhance it's potency, so yes Hirudora will be much more deadlier. But no where does it state Katon has the affect of auto returning the technique. You must prove that, otherwise what actually happens is Katon that Jiraiya uses will just create a giant fire Tiger of pressurised air. Thus screwing himself over.

Kisame and Hirudora were fired at the same time. The fact they both travelled at the same speed is a testament to Hirudora. Water Shark techniques move faster underwater and Hirudora moves slower underwater, thus a testament to Hirudora not a detrament. I have evidence Hirudora moves faster on land with the Madara scene I mentioned.


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## Bonly (Feb 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Not sure what the point of all this is.
> 
> Are you saying Bunta is above Ma and Pa?
> 
> ...



So you're saying that This Katon can't match, This Katon? If so, what if Jiraiya was in Sage Mode and did the former Katon, then do you think it could be considered one of the best Katons(barring Ama and Enton that is)?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 18, 2017)

Jad said:


> You're assuming just because Yamato knows Hirudora, everyone else. That's an over reaching statement since Jiraiya officially left the village during around the time Gai's shinobi years really took off.


But gates isnt special to Gai... If Minato know dai that much.. Jiraiya probably will do.. Maybe he cant exactly know Hirudora but he can prepare himself for a similar feat due to general knowledge about gates and how they're boostin abilities in general manga.




Jad said:


> You do know the Pain bodies - besides Deva and Ashura, are fodder with just God powers.


I was agree with you in that post of yours but this line is a huge lowballin.. Im also find Pain Paths weak against a kage level shinobi or physical base character.. But saying fodder ?!  




Jad said:


> Kisame and Hirudora were fired at the same time. The fact they both travelled at the same speed is a testament to Hirufora. Water Shark techniques move faster underwater and Hirudora moves slower underwater, thus a testament to Hirudora not a detrament. I have evidence Hirudora moves faster on and with the Madara scene I mentioned.


So due to this argument of yours.. That was a Hirudora's and Gai's acheivement not Kisame's or daikodan's due to Hirudora will be slowed down in more dense envoirements. 

Swamp >>>> Water in density.. ıf Gai caught in a swamp how he even able to pop out due to even water is able to make hirudora less dangerous  




Troyse22 said:


> tech only filled a small room.


biased detected  pace of ignoring will start  


This is the front side of that "little room"

This is the volume of the jutsu.. Pain paths stand on some pile of boulder which is high as a 2 storey building. 

40mx40mx5m = ? small room ? (these are the smallest assumptional numbers) And most important thing jutsus didnt stop expanding on the area.. Its just stoppped from Preta. So that wasnt even the full release for that jutsu  IF you think it was  I can remind you that guy when he was poisoned and w/o elder toads (only gamabunta) performed Gamayu Endan  
SO Healthy SM Jiraiya with elder toads ??? small room yeah    

And filled that area in a split second.. And Jiriaya gather oil for the jutsu.. If you can imagine what senpo goemon would be with Gamabunta ?! Small room   man lowballing about J-Man is never gonna stop ı guess


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

Jad said:


> You're assuming just because Yamato knows Hirudora, everyone else. That's an over reaching statement since Jiraiya officially left the village during around the time Gai's shinobi years really took off.



No I'm not, those are your words, not mine. I'm presuming that Jiraiya would have knowledge on Gai's Hirudora since he keeps tabs on even the most covert ninja and supposedly was capable of gauging Kakashi's strength as well.



> Can you prove Sage sensing includes being able to distinguish Jutsu from Taijutsu. Can you also prove Jiraiya can distinguish a Tiger attack to be pressurised Air in order to formulate a counter with Katon? Gai had to explain it to Kisame.



Actually, the argument I was going to use is wrong, so I'll use another.

The simplest explanation would be that Hirudora is devoid of chakra, so Sage Sensing would be capable of discerning the absence of it. Kisame's not a sensor without Samehada, so irrelevant. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how he'd fail to discover that it's not a chakra attack.



> Can you also prove Katon would send back Hirudora. We all know Wind fuels Katon to enhance it's potency, so yes Hirudora will be much more deadlier.* But no where does it state Katon has the affect of auto returning the technique*. You must prove that, otherwise what actually happens is Katon that Jiraiya uses will just create a giant fire Tiger of pressurised air. Thus screwing himself over.



Yamato stated that Wind not only empowers Katon, but would propelled at the user as a more excruciating attack which immediately debunks the premise of your argument:

*Spoiler*: __ 








What furthers this notion is that only Suiton is stated to consistently defeat Katon while Futon would lose when battling Katon. What you're arguing is contradictory because this would infer that Wind actually does not lose even though the elemental wheel dictates that Katon would only lose to Suiton under normal circumstances. No element has such relationship where it loses against two elements assuming both are equal users; that's nonsensical.

Even the Databook reaffirms that a stronger attack will at least force back the weaker jutsu:

"However, where the amount of chakra is greater, it is sometimes possible to push back the opposing jutsu." - 

Nowhere is it stated that the stronger jutsu is suddenly a double-edged sword for its user, Kishimoto even concludes that it should at least force back the weaker jutsu which is precisely what would happen here given the enormity of Jiraiya's jutsu and boost it receives by sapping Hirudora's energy and booming as a result. Before we proceed, I advise to provide a situation or statement where a Futon user would prosper from a Katon user's strength because I can assure you, there is no such thing like you erroneously believed was the case with the inverse.



> Kisame and Hirudora were fired at the same time. The fact they both travelled at the same speed is a testament to Hirudora. Water Shark techniques move faster underwater and Hirudora moves slower underwater, thus a testament to Hirudora not a detrament. I have evidence Hirudora moves faster on land with the Madara scene I mentioned.



Okay, that wasn't the point, it was the fact that Kisame had the liberty of executing a jutsu against it, so Jiraiya would as well considering his sign-weaving speed eclipses his.

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## Jad (Feb 18, 2017)

*Speed & Reflexes*

Jiraiya actually doesn't have many base speed feats that I know of, nor any statements to hype him in the area. His fight with Pain also did not illustrate this. With that said, Jiraiya's boost in speed while in Hermit Mode was jumping off a wall [x] with Odama Rasengan in his palm and hitting Preta Path. The thing is Preta Path reacted, he had his hands by his sides in this panel [x] from such a close distance, to countering moment later with his arms up in the next panel. His CQC speed is also easily countered in this panel [] with Human path easily blocking an attack using shared vision. True he blinded him with a ferocious kick when the Path ran at him []. But this 'speed' became diluted and manageable straight after, as evident to my references above from two different paths reacting to him easily. My conclusion being that Pain got used to his speed after his first encounter.

In contrast, Gai was already quick in base that I would say his at Hermit Mode Jiraiya's speed. Even above I would say. As I would categorize Minato, Itachi, Bee at as well. My evidence being the multitude of feats and statements he has in base:

_*Base Gai's Speed*_

Let's look at Gai's base speed in comparison to Shrouded Naruto. Naruto was half the distance closer to Obito then Gai [7]. Not only that, but he started running before Gai did [x]. Gai had potentially only started running at this point [x]. Yet reached Obito when Naruto's real body caught up to Obito's [x].

Not only that, but Naruto was unable to maneuver away from Obito's touch [x]. Remember, Itachi engaged Naruto in much the same away Obito did, and Naruto could dodge it [x]. _second panel_. Yet without help, even impressing Naruto, was Gai able to react to Obito [x]. This feat has the added benefit of Gai fighting Sharingan users without looking at their eyes, as he already stated to do against Itachi and Kakashi [x].

Also you can see, Obito and Naruto are relatively in the same ball park of speed [x].

The  also *exemplifies* his _quality_ of speed quite well:

Was able to at high enough speeds close the distance fast enough on Obito, who was closer to Naruto, and save Naruto in the nick of time.
"_unbelievable speed_" (Ironically a lot of people in the Battledome don't believe Gai's base speed)
"his target cannot even see him in the instant before his kick lands" - Databook 2
"Exceptional power and speed!" - Databook 2
"_speed that not a single person can follow his movement_"
"_His speed lets no one escape_"
"_He dodges like a flash_" - DB3
_5_ in speed - Databook 3.
Lee in base was able to dodge Kimimaro's attack that throws blows that leave after image s(both illustrated visually and explained as such). The Databook than goes on to say, without saying, "His[Gai] bodily movement is way above that of Lee. This is in one word the fruits of ‘effort.’" - Databook 2. Imagine Gai dodging Jiraiya 's attacks in such a way.
1st Gate - Omote Renge: "ultra-high level, special taijutsu is none else than his off-the-charts speed"- Databook 1
Appeared in front of Itachi, surprising him in an open field, with his Sharingan activated.
"his target cannot even see him in the instant before his kick lands" - Databook 2; This was the move that *surprised Itachi*
_*Gai's Reflexes*_

I think some of Gai's reactions and reflexes are overlooked, I would like to show you some of them. On top of his fights in Taijtusu, these ones stand out I guess:

Databook stats he has fast as lightning reflexes
Here Gai was able to react from an attack from behind by Obito [x]
Gai was able to notice a twitch under-water from Kisame's finger, so he is quite perceptive - reacting to it quickly [x]
Gai was able to move in-between the mid-kamui-warp of his Nunchuk's [3]. Imagine Gai dodging one of _Jiraiya_'s linear attacks in the same fashion.
Gai moved his body to an angle before Naruto got to him at the EXACT and right time. Notice how Gai's hair is moving one way suggesting movement, and Naruto's hand slaps Gai's shoulder and a 'SFX-impact' appears on it. And Naruto is NO slouch in speed and has no reason to not go fast in this situation against Obito [x][x]
The big one: Could percieve time through his space bending speed. Let alone his other gated speeds. Remember Raikage needs to stimulate through ninjustu his nerve transmission to use his speeds. Gai has trained them already.
Also notice how here KCM Naruto couldn't react to Obito [x] the same way he reacted to Itachi's strikes [x] (second panel). Notice the head, he'd of been warped by Obito. Whereas in Gai's taijutsu exchange he could react to Obito.

If Gai engages in Gates for whatever reason, he just amplifies the above feats and dominates Jiraiya.

*6th Gate Speed:*
He can already appear almost out of nowhere with his 6th Gated speed and blitz Kisame [x] (30% or naught, he shares the same speed, reflexes, durability just limited in chakra capacity for ninjutsu). Speed Jiraiya has not encountered in the manga to know for sure how his reflexes would react. But since his above mentioned speed was already reacted to by Pains, his ability in countering doesn't come off as good. Especially considering Gai in 6 Gates can move his limbs to catch on fire [x] and punch about 400 times a second (if not greater), enough to scorch the sky in fire [x]. My calculation is based on the fact Kisame called Morning Peacock a super-sonic attack, and that his lighting the air on fire.

_*7th Gate speed:*_
Jiraiya's chances in CQC is further diminished with the 7th Gate, as he outperforms 3 Kage, including Minato with Sage Mode, to engage Juubidara. And without losing a limb or being taken out the first second he hit Taijutsu hitting distance, that already is a remarkable feat in comparison. But he did more than that and pushed him back, someone as arrogant as Madara who believed to be underestimated could not counter attack until he found an opening with Hirudora being released.

If Gai in a similar manner, closing the distance as he did so quickly against Juubidara, and hitting combos with a followed up Hirudora, Jiraiya will surely lose with *no speed feats of Gai's* level to back him up [x]. Even *Gaara* was in complete shock of his speed and skills, and considering what his seen, that makes Gai's feats even more remarkable.
Gai can also unleash Hirudora from Base to 7th Gate, before Madara could finish a swing he was in mid motion of doing [x], and intercept him from close to a hundred or so meters [x]. The same Madara who could put up a guard against A [x][x].
*Jiraiya's Sensing*

Hermit Mode Jiraiya was never really shown having any sought of sensing on the level that Sage Mode Naruto had, considering in two examples he was caught from behind. Here Ma had to warn him of an attack coming from the side from slightly behind. Even than he should have seen it but the Pain seemed to whizz passed too quickly [x]. He was also not able to sense Asura path coming from behind []. These two examples lead me to believe he has no sought of ability to sense an attack. Jiraiya also does have his detection barrier, but that was activated before the human path attacked and it still didn't save him [].

Funnily enough in comparison, Jiraiya couldn't block an attack by himself from behind, but Base Gai was able to successfully block an attack coming from behind without looking [x] against a more powerful opponent than animal path. So we know his ever vigilant and focused of his surroundings. He even noticed the ant sized Naruto was in trouble from a distance even when surrounded by Bijuu [x]. He even noticed a finger twitch underwater, something so minute in detail that it set him off [x]. These examples should give us enough evidence to suggest an attack from behind won't blindside Gai immediately, nor does he fail to notice his surroundings for the smallest details.

*Taijutsu*

I don't think I really need to emphasize this point much, for all the skills shown in the manga, what's stated in the Databook are just bonus. Anyways, Kishimoto likened Gai to Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan, so there is that. I've looked over Jiraiya's Databook entries and nothing about his Taijutsu skill. Same with the manga, really no reference to his skill in Taijutsu. As for Gai:

"Specialized Technique: all taijutsu" - Databook 1
"He is not only good at taijutsu..." - Databook 4
"A master of hand-to-hand combat" - Databook 3
Lee is even called a Master of Taijutsu - twice (Databook 3 and 4)
Than you got an assortment of statemetnts in the Databook saying "Powerful Taijutsu technique" for just about every Base move he has in his arsenal.
"Might Guy, the greatest taijutsu user in Konoha village" - Databook 3
"Madara, saying he is the greatest Taijutsu fighter his ever witnessed". Only a supreme master of Taijutsu could invent and execute such brutal techniques from the group up.
I thought it was interesting how Gai also barehanded (grappled) blocked a ninjutsu user, who blows people up by punching them.
5 in Taijutsu - Databook 3
There is a chance with just manga knowledge Gai will get hit by a Frog Ghost punch, but because of his durability, he will get up and learn not to just dodge the attack but the full swing. Like Rock Lee learned to do with Dosu's attacks. Also, That was Naruto's feat of killing Preta path. Jiraiya failed to kill any of the paths with his Taijutsu moves [][x][].

With Gates, and really, just base speed/reflexes, Gai dodging Jiraiya's Taijutsu advances is more than possible. For example, Gai moving his upper body before a mid-Kamui warp of his Nunchuku in base [x] is speed quicker than any of Jiraiya's limb movements.

*Quick Note Gai's Durability*


"A body tempered like steel" - Databook 3
I think it was a good durability feat that he actually did get hit by Kisame's explosive strength that sent him deep within the ocean. Only to shrug it off to execute the 6th Gate.
By war arc standards, he survived an explosion that was about the same size as 10% Katsuya, at point blank range. While not Hirudora fully executed, an explosion nonetheless. He did need about 10-15 second breather, but he went on to execute 8 Gates. Resiliency and durable.
Any resiliency feats really just fall under his 8 Gates usage, and the fact he could execute Night Guy at probably his worse condition imaginable. Gai could have easily succumbed to the pain the moment he used Evening Elephant step 1.


*Gated Attacks*

_*Morning Peacock*_

If the taijutsu exchange happens while Gai is in gated form, Jiraiya will eat a Morning Peacock, and while some would say "_He can survive that, he has durability_", he won't be able to continue fighting on the level of destruction Gai can deal. However I doubt he can because even Kisame who was filled with Hachibi chakra, stated even he could die from the technique [x].

Also considering a small explosion was able to tear an entire limb off Hermit Mode Jiraiya [*x*]. On top of that, Ma and Pa are vulnerable to an attack if Morning Peacock is ever executed, and Jiraiya would have to face the full brunt of the attack in base [x][x] (these two panels show Hermit mode turning off the moment one toad leaves him), while being lit on fire afterwards. Without any ability to douse the flames out, whether in Base or Hermit Mode, he loses out on this exchange.

Jiraiya is also unable to prep for Morning Peacock because it is an instantaneous move, having the ability to know ahead the attack is going to happen would mean possessing mind reading abilities, and the ability to dodge the fast moving fists would also mean having a faster reaction than the attack. The argument before was that Gai would perform Morning Peacock, and Jiraiya would use his Hair Needle technique to block. That would be fine, if Gai didn't use his technique at close range within punching strike distance. Which is what the attack is meant for if it is used offensively rather defensively. Needle Jizo also requires hand seals [x] and than it forms around the body [x]. So it would not be quick enough as even Orochimaru found a way in.

_*Hirudora*_

I already explained why Hirudora has a high chance of hitting Jiraiya as explained above in the speed section. And considering the lethality of Morning Peacock was already established in my above point, I also believe Hirudora would kill Hermit Mode or Base Jiraiya. Re-iterating though:

The speed at which Hirudora travels leaves Jiraiya, who doesn't know it can explode, little room to form a defensive technique. It's ability to catch a *serious *[x] Madara is enough of a reason to believe Jiraiya will share a similar fate. Jiraiya's toad sages would also be swept up in the attack and thus killed off, resulting in Jiraiya having to take the attack in base and thus killing him. At the end of the day, Gai can end it with Hirudora if he ever feels pressured, especially if he enters the 7th Gate prematurely for countering Jiraiya's techniques (and I believe this to happen most certainly in the fight).

*Ninjutsu*

_*Yomi Numa and Senpō: Goemon*_

Jiraiya has Yomi Numa and Senpō: Goemon which can both be blown aside by using the 7th Gate [x], which indeed shows the ability to levitate in some degree. Without wasting the 7th Gate's usage, Hirudora will follow quickly giving Jiraiya, Ma and Pa no time to prep or react, and thus being swept off their feet and destroyed.

_*Rasengan and Odoma Rasengan*_

Normal Rasengan can be dodged just as normal as punches, and Odama Rasengan can be circumvented with Gai's gated speed, considering even Preta could react to it [].

_*Senbon Needle Spray*_

Jiraiya's most fastest attack, the Senbon needle spray, can be somewhat troubling for Gai, but he can avoid the brunt of the attack by dodging in base and blocking whats left with his Nunchaku play [x]. Plus the Senbon Needle in the databook has a 10 meter reach, at the same time can be countered with Hirudora, like he went from base to 7th Gate against Madara to help Naruto.

_*Toad Stomach*_

Toad Stomach was only ever executed and worked within enclosed spaces, replacing the walls with the toads innards. In fact this would work against him considering Jirayia's Sage techniques would backfire and hurt the Mountain toad. Probably why he didn't resort to them in the Pain fight and rather more useful in capturing than fighting within.

_*Frog Song and Frog Call*_

While Frog song prep is too long considering Gai would be constantly on his tail at match start. Frog Call is another technique that would give Gai trouble, but he can counter it. If he is caught in the technique, without Gates activated, he can open the 7th Gate force anything around him back so as to give him room, and considering opening the gates shows no signs of needing to concentrate it would be beneficial. Plus we have no idea how long the confusion lasts, as it only seems to work while the Sages continue to belt out their voice. Meaning Jiraiya can't attack Gai if he is confused otherwise he'd get caught as well. Same with anything else. It only worked for Naruto because he was below the area of affect and got behind the summons to land a hit  [x]. The technique also cannot be used when Jiraiya is around otherwise it will hit him as well, plus he loses Sage Mode if they leap off him. Which means if Gai dodges preemptively and they use it, Gai has a pot shot at Base Jiraiya. I can't think of any other attack that wouldn't be executed in the same speed or fashion over the ones I mentioned. Plus really, he'd just play the Gaara vs. Lee fight with Jiraiya, confusing him with his speed and strikes *Ura Renge* style [x].

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## Ryuzaki (Feb 18, 2017)

Honestly, I was about refute a bunch of this but @Jad impressive work, he said all I wanted to and took it further.

I don't think Gai can win if Frog Song is already being prepped, unless he goes 8th Gate, but for Gai to let it get to that point would mean he fucked up in huge ridiculous ways.



Mithos said:


> Honestly, even 7th Gate Gai doesn't have great portrayal. Gai's 7th Gate was known in Konoha as even someone like Yamato knew about Afternoon Tiger. Yet, Gai was never considered for Hokage at any point in the manga. He was not considered a factor during Pain's invasion (Tsunade was hoping Naruto would return, not Gai; when Gai did return, he was told he would get in the way). He was not considered a secret weapon of the Shinobi Alliance, either. Despite that, this forum seems to think that Gai can defeat established Kage level ninja, including someone as strong as Jiraiya, with little difficulty with a technique that was known in the village. I've even seen a lot of posters claim that 7th Gate Gai can take on two of the Gokage at once and win because of Afternoon Tiger.


There are a number of things wrong with this statement—Gai being never considered for Hokage has less to do with his physical capability and more to do with his lack of intellect and political understanding. There are a number of candidates in line before him that would do a much better job than he would, most of whom are inferior to him. For example, Tsunade was considered for Hokage but that had more to do with her lineage, natural aptitude and healing abilities, than her combat prowess. It didn't hurt her chances that she could throw down, but lets not get it twisted because she wasn't selected solely for her combat prowess.

7th Gated Gai could take out some combinations of a (2) person team selected from the Gokage. The real difference maker among the Gokage and any Gated version of Gai above 5th is that none of them would be able to react to his level of speed. But that goes for Base Jiraiya as well, he will need SM in order to compete with Gated Gai and since much of Gai's assaults do not use chakra I doubt SM would even make a difference in their clashes.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> There are a number of things wrong with this statement—Gai being never considered for Hokage has less to do with his physical capability and more to do with his lack of intellect and political understanding. There are a number of candidates in line before him that would do a much better job than he would, most of whom are inferior to him. For example, Tsunade was considered for Hokage but that had more to do with her lineage, natural aptitude and healing abilities, than her combat prowess. It didn't hurt her chances that she could throw down, but lets not get it twisted because she wasn't selected solely for her combat prowess.



 Actually, the example you've presented is incongruous with your argument considering Tsunade was deemed worthy for the Hokage position because of her unparalleled combat prowess. Tsunade and Kakashi were both considered under very grim circumstances where the village was under repair instead of Gai who was not even though his "unrivaled" power would've taken precedence over Kakashi's superior intelligence. I'd suggest you don't get it twisted since Jiraiya's admission of Tsunade's unique abilities occurred afterwards.



> 7th Gated Gai could take out some combinations of a (2) person team selected from the Gokage. The real difference maker among the Gokage and *any Gated version of Gai above 5th is that none of them would be able to react to his level of speed*. But that goes for Base Jiraiya as well, *he will need SM in order to compete with Gated Gai and since much of Gai's assaults do not use chakra I doubt SM would even make a difference in their clashes*.



 Curious as to how you derived this conclusion.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Actually, the example you've presented is incongruous with your argument considering Tsunade was deemed worthy for the Hokage position because of her unparalleled combat prowess. Tsunade and Kakashi were both considered under very grim circumstances where the village was under repair instead of Gai who was not even though his "unrivaled" power would've taken precedence over Kakashi's superior intelligence. I'd suggest you don't get it twisted since Jiraiya's admission of Tsunade's unique abilities occurred afterwards.


This basically sums it up nicely, he mentions it all but stresses the importance of her medical jutsu which is further supported by her performances in Konoha's Invasion and the War Arc.



> Curious as to how you derived this conclusion.


6th Gated Gai was enough to intercept Kisame mid-thought process.

The explanation of Hirudora, if it was chakra then Kisame would have absorbed it and gotten stronger.

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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> So your proof is a Pain body with no prior durability feats, no hype or portrayl of being tough, is the one reason Gai dies.
> 
> Gai, who is stated to have a body like tempered steel in the DB. Who survived the back lash of an unfinished Hirudora at point blank, the size of it comparable to 5% Katsuya. Gai is going to die from one Ghost punch because you found a panel of a fodder dieing to one?
> 
> You do know the Pain bodies - besides Deva and Ashura,  are fodder with just God powers.





Oh yeah, what amazing durability...

According to the DB Temari can blow away the universe, so I wouldn't go putting much stake into it. Gai, like 95% of Narutoverse is just a glass cannon, if he got hit by any SM user he would die instantly.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> Oh yeah, what amazing durability...
> 
> According to the DB Temari can blow away the universe, so I wouldn't go putting much stake into it. Gai, like 95% of Narutoverse is just a glass cannon, if he got hit by any SM user he would die instantly.



You just chose to ignore the feat of Gai getting back up after an explosion the size of 10% Katsuya exploded point blank in his face. I only used the DB statement to show that Kishimoto portrayed him as a durable and tough character. So again, do you have any feats that show specifically that the Ghost punch alone can kill Gai. So far you show me Preta path dieing to it. Preta path doesn't have any prior feats of durability nor anything that resembles a statement or portrayal to say he is in Gai's league. And if your example image, which I can't see, is of Kisame punching Gai, spitting blood, and sinking him into the depths of the ocean is a way to disapprove Gai's durability. Might I remind you that Kisame's strength has shown to be greater than the Ghost portion of a Sage users attack.

Also, That was Naruto's feat of killing Preta path. Jiraiya failed to kill any of the paths with his Taijutsu moves [][x][]


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> This basically sums it up nicely, he mentions it all but stresses the importance of her medical jutsu which is further supported by her performances in Konoha's Invasion and the War Arc.



He professed that it was predominately her unique abilities and bloodline that made her the perfect candidate, but that was clearly not the case. Jiraiya was selling himself short; he evidently stated that there was no one suited for the job and was in a dire situation where he had to convince Tsunade accept his own wishes. Given Tsunade's animosity to Konoha, Jiraiya revealing the full truth including how Jiraiya was the first person that came to mind for the Hokage position would not have boded well since there'd be no incentive for Tsunade to comply. Jiraiya simply had to fabricate the truth to get the job effectively.

I already provided the scan regardless, Tsunade was selected because she was one of the Sannin, a title denoting unrivaled power.



> 6th Gated Gai was enough to intercept Kisame mid-thought process.
> 
> The explanation of Hirudora, if it was chakra then Kisame would have absorbed it and gotten stronger.



I know and I agree Gai would defeat Jiraiya in CQC, but Jiraiya rarely ever engages his opponent directly.

That's a very superficial response. Daikodan doesn't have some inherit advantage that pertains to the elemental wheel that would denote absorption; Jiraiya does. Chakra is prerequisite for Kisame, the intrinsic relationship between Katon and Wind is the prerequisite for Jiraiya. You're comparing two different situations.


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> You just chose to ignore the feat of Gai getting back up after an explosion the size of 10% Katsuya exploded point blank in his face. I only used the DB statement to show that Kishimoto portrayed him as a durable and tough character. So again, do you have any feats that show specifically that the Ghost punch alone can kill Gai. So far you show me Preta path dieing to it. Preta path doesn't have any prior feats of durability nor anything that resembles a statement or portrayal to say he is in Gai's league. And if your example image, which I can't see, is of Kisame punching Gai, spitting blood, and sinking him into the depths of the ocean is a way to disapprove Gai's durability. Might I remind you that Kisame's strength has shown to be greater than the Ghost portion of a Sage users attack.
> 
> Also, That was Naruto's feat of killing Preta path. Jiraiya failed to kill any of the paths with his Taijutsu moves [][x][]



Gai "tanking" an explosion that Kisame survived is not impressive. Kisame has greater strength than an SM user? Lmao what?

Actually I linked Samehada shreading Gai's hands, if you think Samehada's shreading capabilities are more potent than Frog Kata then I don't know what to tell you.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> Gai "tanking" an explosion that Kisame survived is not impressive. Kisame has greater strength than an SM user? Lmao what?
> 
> Actually I linked Samehada shreading Gai's hands, if you think Samehada's shreading capabilities are more potent than Frog Kata then I don't know what to tell you.



Frog Kata doesn't shred though....

Saying frog Kata is superior to Samehada in shredding things is like Samehada is superior to frog Kata in ghost punches.

Makes no sense.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 19, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I legit just showed you step by step exactly why Jirayia can make a Juubi sized Katon. I then showed you how drastically the size of Katon can change depending on how much chakra the user wants/needs to put in the techinque. You ignored all that and reverted to step one. Lmao wow



Juubi sized Katon



I don't think you understand how huge the Juubi is.

Jiraiya's biggest Katon combo's would be a pebble in comparison to it.

Jiraiya doesn't have the chakra reserves to support a Juubi sized Katon collab. The dude has no chakra reserves feats or hype.

Yeah yeah, he's a Sannin bla bla bla that's not an argument.

Jiraiya's Katon without his summons are nothing to write home about.


Jiraiya doesn't have the hype or feats supporting such a statement. Take Orochimaru for example (a fellow Sannin) who was able to battle the same Naruto who almost OHK Jiraiya. He managed to spam oral rebirth, a tech that Sasuke could only use once and only had to back off because his body was failing him. This battle truly highlighted Orochimaru's reserves and stamina.

Jiraiya's Stamina and Chakra reserves are barely above average, he's not creating "Juubi sized Katon's"


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> Gai "tanking" an explosion that Kisame survived is not impressive. Kisame has greater strength than an SM user? Lmao what?
> 
> Actually I linked Samehada shreading Gai's hands, if you think Samehada's shreading capabilities are more potent than Frog Kata then I don't know what to tell you.



Sharp objects have always had the inherit property of being overly more dangerous.

1. Hashirama going to gut himself with a mere Kunai
2. Tobirama using a Kunai to kill SM Madara
3. Samehada biting on Bee, breaking skin and absorbing Hachibi's chakra
4. Kisame being torn apart by sharks
5. Hidan who took Kakuzu's fuuton style technique head on with visibly no cuts, being sliced in the neck by Shikamaru's tanto knife
6. Zetsu/Kisame going to use Samehada to shred Bee as he was incapacitated on the ground

List goes on and on. I know Gai can be gutted, sliced and killed by weapons varying from Kunai to Swords. But Gai is inherently durable against blunt forced attacks as I proved by Hirudora (failed to fully mature) releasing an explosion at point blank the size of Katsua 10%. Any explosion that size that someone survives is a durability feat.

Kisame is also shown to be stronger to SM users in striking strength. SM Naruto didn't exactly launch Preta path far [x] roughly distance between Naruto and pain []. In comparison, Gai nearly got dragged into the depths of the ocean [], which we all know is much harder than doing so above sea level.

Again, I showed you Jiraiya unable to kill paths using his Taijutsu in direct contact. Naruto could, Jiraiya couldn't. Use his feats not someone elses.

Again, prove Jiraiya can kill Gai using his version of Ghost Frog Kata/attacks.


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> Sharp objects have always had the inherit property of being overly more dangerous.
> 
> 1. Hashirama going to gut himself with a mere Kunai
> 2. Tobirama using a Kunai to kill SM Madara
> ...



None of those characters you mentioned could tank a hit from an SM user with perhaps the exception of SM Hashirama. You never saw Gai tank Hirudora, you have no idea how much damage the blast can do, considering Kisame was still in one piece, it can't be all that impessive. Claiming Gai can tank Frog Kata is like claiming he can tank a Rasengan, completely baseless.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> None of those characters you mentioned could tank a hit from an SM user with perhaps the exception of SM Hashirama. You never saw Gai tank Hirudora, you have no idea how much damage the blast can do, considering Kisame was still in one piece, it can't be all that impessive. Claiming Gai can tank Frog Kata is like claiming he can tank a Rasengan, completely baseless.


You know what. I'm done discussing Naruto's feat.

I showed you two panels of Jiraiya failing to kill any of the Pains with direct attacks, not even the Ghosted version of the attacks. 

Prove to me that Jiraiya can kill Gai with his attack landing on him. I've been asking you prove it to me several times now.


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> You know what. I'm done discussing Naruto's feat.
> 
> I showed you two panels of Jiraiya failing to kill any of the Pains with direct attacks, not even the Ghosted version of the attacks.
> 
> Prove to me that Jiraiya can kill Gai with his attack landing on him. I've been asking you prove it to me several times now.



The burden of proof is on you, show me where Gai has tanked hits similar to Frog Kata, oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist. Gai hasn't proven he's anymore durable than any regular character, no regular character can survive SM hits, Pain bodies aren't even living.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> The burden of proof is on you, show me where Gai has tanked hits similar to Frog Kata, oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist. Gai hasn't proven he's anymore durable than any regular character, no regular character can survive SM hits, Pain bodies aren't even living.


No offense but...

Why in the world would you say "_Pain bodies aren't even living_" to prove why Jiraiya couldn't kill the Pain bodies he hit, but at the same time use the feat of Naruto punching and killing a pain body.

*You do know you fucked up*? You don't even know what point you want to make anymore. I even proved how Kisame's strength rivals Naruto's SM strength by comparing the distance in the opponent being thrown back by their attacks. You didn't even prove to refute that point, you chose to ignore it. Prove to me an explosion the size of 10% Katsuya is on the same level as Jiraiya's Ghost Frog Kata technique that FAILED to kill any Pain bodies he attacked.

You STILL haven't proven anything. Stop using Naruto's feat as well.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2017)

Preta path is weak to Taijutsu. Naruto hit Deva with Taijutsu directly, and yet he did not die (Deva). I don't think it's wise to assume all the paths are on the same level of strength/power
Here
Here


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> No offence but what is wrong with you?
> 
> Why in the world would you use "_Pain bodies aren't even living_" to prove why Jiraiya couldn't kill the Pain bodies he hit, but at the same time use the feat of Naruto punching and killing a pain body.
> 
> ...



What's wrong with me? What's wrong with you, are you utterly retarded? A living being like Gai can't tank an attack like an inanimate object can. Then again Gai is brain dead, so maybe he can, perhaps that's why you like him so much, you can relate.

Do I have to spell it out for you again? You didn't see Gai tank jack shit, the idea he tanked anything is fan fiction.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you claimed he can tank Frog Kata, you can't prove it, therefore you fail.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Juubi sized Katon
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know exactly how large the Juubi is, and I know it's probabaly the size of 100 or more Buntas.. Which is a katon that Jirayia could create while healthy and in Sage Mode if you actually paid attention to those panels I posted. You thinking Jirayia doesn't have the chakra is either a lack of manga comprehension or dishonesty. Gimped Jirayia after using other techinques created a Katon that dwarfed Bunta and still wasn't exhausted. Healthy Sage Jirayia can create something _much_ larger without killing his chakra. Homie has a 5 in the stamina stat and clearly had the chakra reserves to utilize Sage Mode. He might not have massive reserves compared to high tier characters, but he holds his own.

And honestly even if you don't think he can make a Katon exactly the size of the Juubi, you still have to admit that Jirayia + Bunta can make Katon much larger than anything Itachi, Sasuke( Pre -Riduko) and Hiruzen can do; so he's still one of the top Katon users whether you hate the Sannin or not.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> What's wrong with me? What's wrong with you, are you utterly retarded? A living being like Gai can't tank an attack like an inanimate object can. Then again Gai is brain dead, so maybe he can, perhaps that's why you like him so much, you can relate.
> 
> Do I have to spell it out for you again? You didn't see Gai tank jack shit, the idea he tanked anything is fan fiction.
> 
> The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you claimed he can tank Frog Kata, you can't prove it, therefore you fail.


Calm down. You don't even know what points to make anymore and your tripping over your own statements, and can't refute my points which I posted several times; comparing Kisame's strength to SM Naruto's. Can't prove Jiraiya can kill Gai with a punch seeing as though he failed to do so against any of the Pain's he attacked. Choose to correlate Naruto's feats to Jiraiya's which is disingenuous of you. Now you start to name call. I accept your concession as you failed to provide reasoning on why Jiraiya can kill Gai with a ghost punch. Have a nice day 

I refer you too my large summary of how the battle goes:


> *Speed & Reflexes*
> 
> Jiraiya actually doesn't have many base speed feats that I know of, nor any statements to hype him in the area. His fight with Pain also did not illustrate this. With that said, Jiraiya's boost in speed while in Hermit Mode was jumping off a wall [x] with Odama Rasengan in his palm and hitting Preta Path. The thing is Preta Path reacted, he had his hands by his sides in this panel [x] from such a close distance, to countering moment later with his arms up in the next panel. His CQC speed is also easily countered in this panel [] with Human path easily blocking an attack using shared vision. True he blinded him with a ferocious kick when the Path ran at him []. But this 'speed' became diluted and manageable straight after, as evident to my references above from two different paths reacting to him easily. My conclusion being that Pain got used to his speed after his first encounter.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> Calm down. You don't even know what points to make anymore and your tripping over your own statements, can't refute my points which I posted several times; comparing Kisame's strength to SM Naruto's. Can't prove Jiraiya can kill Gai with a punch seeing as though he failed to do so against any of the Pain's he attacked. Choose to coorelate Naruto's feats to Jiraiya's which is disingenuous of you. Now you start to name call. Have a nice day
> 
> I refer you too my large summary of how the battle goes:



For the millionth time, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, as such, I accept your concession as you failed to provide reasoning on why Gai can tank Jiraiya's ghost punch.

Hilarious thing is, I ultimately agree that Gai is stronger than Jiraiya, but don't accept fanboy nonsense that he has some uber durability.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> For the millionth time, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, as such, I accept your concession as you failed to provide reasoning on why Gai can tank Jiraiya's ghost punch.
> 
> Hilarious thing is, I ultimately agree that Gai is stronger than Jiraiya, but don't accept fanboy nonsense that he has some uber durability.


Funny thing is you quoted the very post that provided the 'burden of proof' you kept asking for and that I kept posting about. You're stuck in a loop. Try and get out of it. Have a glorious day


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## Skilatry (Feb 19, 2017)

Jad said:


> Funny thing is you quoted the very post that provided the 'burden of proof' you kept asking for and that I kept posting about. You're stuck in a loop. Try and get out of it. Have a glorious day



I agree, Gai can probably tank Rasenshuriken as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Arthurthegrimreaper (Feb 19, 2017)

Are you nuts.how can guy handle jiraiyas summons


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## Sapherosth (Feb 19, 2017)

Arthurthegrimreaper said:


> Are you nuts.how can guy handle jiraiyas summons




He kicks the shit out of it ?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Arthurthegrimreaper (Feb 19, 2017)

Jiraiyas summons  can't be kicked simply as you say.they are humongous in size.


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## Santoryu (Feb 19, 2017)

Arthurthegrimreaper said:


> Jiraiyas summons  can't be kicked simply as you say.they are humongous in size.



They were easily evaded by the Deva path.

Gai is not only much faster, he also possesses monstrous physical strength.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> They were easily evaded by the Deva path.
> 
> Gai is not only much faster, he also possesses monstrous physical strength.



Where was Gai even shown to have a physical power that is enough to defeat a boss summon?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gohara (Feb 20, 2017)

@ Troy.

I know that Edo Tensei Nagato with limitless Chakra is more powerful than his normal self.  I call all versions of him Nagato, though, because his name is still the same.  Either way, my point is that Jiraiya is around the same level as a version of Nagato that's more powerful than Gai in my opinion.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 20, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Where was Gai even shown to have a physical power that is enough to defeat a boss summon?



 Fanfiction.net

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 20, 2017)

Gohara said:


> I know that Edo Tensei Nagato with limitless Chakra is more powerful than his normal self


Wrong. They have regenerative chakra, hence why Muu spilt in half, and he wasn't able to use jinton, so anything Nagato could have done in his Edo tensei form, he could have done it in his human form as well. I know exactly what you're implying which is " oh nagato couldn't do anything that he did when he was an Edo" which is far from the truth since being an edo, doesn't increase ones stats or their abilities, nor does it give them infinite chakra.



Gohara said:


> Either way, my point is that Jiraiya is around the same level as a version of Nagato that's more powerful than Gai in my opinion.


OK...you can call pein nagato, but just don't get pain mixed with Nagato in his actual body, who was outright stated to be superior to pein

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Feb 21, 2017)

Limitless Chakra isn't necessarily the same thing as Infinite Chakra.  Limitless Chakra does have more benefits than Limited Chakra, though.  So either way Edo Tensei Nagato is more powerful than Normal Nagato because he has limitless stamina and can use techniques without limit.

Fair enough.  I like to call any version of him Nagato, but I do make a distinction between their level of power.


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## Arthurthegrimreaper (Feb 21, 2017)

Man,jiraiya wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Feb 21, 2017)

People debating wether Frog Katas can kill Gai or not.

When in reality if Jiraiya tries slightly to get in Gai's Range, he's going to be destroyed before he can even think of Frog Katas.

If Jiraiya wants to win, he needs to try and exhaust Gai. In other words, run away, use clones. The very moment he stops to try to "hit" Gai is the moment he has to lose any hope of winning this fight.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So Itachi was god tier at his peak?


at his nadir, not at his peak. at his peak, itachi was kishi himself


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## ~M~ (Feb 21, 2017)

If anything, I think this is an even matchup. Jiraiya's summons cannot be "kicked the shit out of" (they're bijuu level, come on), and Gai entering 7th gate is literally pushing him to the most extreme he can go without dying. Jiraiya I think is unlikely to ever want to engage an unknown ninja close range, he's a mid to long range fighter, so naturally he's going to try to gain his distance. I don't see it likely happening that Gai could incapacitate him in the first few opening minutes with taijitsu but it could. Given the setting this would be even more difficult. But again, there's simply no debating around the fact that Gai at his most extremes is enough of a glass canon to kill Jiraiya. So I think it's a 50/50 matchup.


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## Arthurthegrimreaper (Feb 23, 2017)

Do I really need to repeat?


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## Sapherosth (Feb 23, 2017)

~M~ said:


> If anything, I think this is an even matchup. Jiraiya's summons cannot be "kicked the shit out of" (they're bijuu level, come on), and Gai entering 7th gate is literally pushing him to the most extreme he can go without dying. Jiraiya I think is unlikely to ever want to engage an unknown ninja close range, he's a mid to long range fighter, so naturally he's going to try to gain his distance. I don't see it likely happening that Gai could incapacitate him in the first few opening minutes with taijitsu but it could. Given the setting this would be even more difficult. But again, there's simply no debating around the fact that Gai at his most extremes is enough of a glass canon to kill Jiraiya. So I think it's a 50/50 matchup.





Summons are not "Bijuu level". It got neg-diffed by ST.


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## Arthurthegrimreaper (Feb 23, 2017)

Man,jiraiya's summons make the battle somewhat like 5 vs 1


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