# Elminster Aumar vs Raistlin Majere (read first!)



## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 18, 2008)

I know that in a regular match Elminster would stomp Raist so I'll change the settings little. This is the Raistlin from when he traveled to the past where he had a healthy body. Eliminster from the last Greenwood book about his life.

Match 1

Both have the same spells available that Elminster normally has. Magic works after Forgotten Realms rules and no outside help can be summoned/called/conjured..etc. No protection by any gods.


Match 2

Both have the same spells available that Raistlin normally has. Magic works after Dragonlance rules and no outside help can be summoned/called/conjured..etc. No protection by any gods.

Yeah, this is a battle of skill and wits. Who wins?


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2008)

Elminster's power hinges directly on the good graces of whatshernuts. The magic goddess.

Meaning that he can not PWN a god(though I would not be suprised in the least if he could anyway, being that Elminster is the Eragon to Ed Greenwood's Christopher Paolini)

Raistlin on the other hand has demonstrated that he can, in fact, PWN a god. All 21 of them in fact.


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## blueblip (Jul 18, 2008)

^Seconded.

Sure, ol' El is all favoured by Mystra and all, but he's still can't take on gods, much less the Dragonlance gods who have always seemed more...well, god-like, to me than the FR ones. I mean, Raistlin took down the top good god, who's like the Ao of Dragonlance, I think.

Plus, Raistlin beat the most powerful mage of all time in his world while he had health problems, and engineered the defeat of all the gods in his universe and made himself the sole one around. So wits and plans and power go to him.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 18, 2008)

Raistlin defeated the other gods after he himself ascended to godhood.

Raistlin was only capable of beating Takhisis because he lured her onto the mortal plane where she was weaker than in the Abyss.

Next thing on the list is that none of the gods in Dragonlance are even close to as strong as Ao. Heck, they were all created by the 'High God' who is probably no one else than Ao.

Also. Their powers are equal in both matches.

Not to forget that Forgotten Realms is generally viewed as a higher power setting than Dragonlance.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2008)

Elminster's brain implodes because Raistlin is a stone cold pimp.

Match 1:Failminster
Match 2:Raistlin-sama

Since they have the same spells it boils down to who's quicker on the draw, which would likely be affected by their familiarity with their own magic brands.


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## blueblip (Jul 19, 2008)

@Ryoma:
FR is higher tier? Damn, I always got the feeling their gods were weaker, with all the power being diluted into so many damn portfolios. I feel...sad...I always preferred Dragonlance to FR 

But anyways, I still think Raist takes this. What I meant to show with the beating gods bit is that Raist is VERY resourceful in his fights, while El tends to rely on power a lot more.

In situation 1, I think it'll be close, but I give it to Raist more times than not, since he has a healthy body.

In situation 2, same as the first. Both of them will not have too much trouble adapting to different magics.

But in situation 2, wouldn't the lack of Mystra's command over Dragonlance magic weaken El?


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

blueblip said:


> @Ryoma:
> FR is higher tier? Damn, I always got the feeling their gods were weaker, with all the power being diluted into so many damn portfolios. I feel...sad...I always preferred Dragonlance to FR



Yup, most of the high-tier guys would squish the Dragonlance gods. 



> But anyways, I still think Raist takes this. What I meant to show with the beating gods bit is that Raist is VERY resourceful in his fights, while El tends to rely on power a lot more.



Have you read the novels (the Elminster ones)?




> But in situation 2, wouldn't the lack of Mystra's command over Dragonlance magic weaken El?



Not really no. He had quite impressive powers on his own too.


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## Rice Ball (Jul 19, 2008)

Mystra taught Elminster magic, when her connection was severed during "Shadow of the Avatar" Elminster was all but powerless.

Its funny how he started as a thief/assasin.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> Mystra taught Elminster magic, when her connection was severed during "Shadow of the Avatar" Elminster was all but powerless.
> 
> Its funny how he started as a thief/assasin.



Huh? I thought he learned magic on his own (with his Elven teachers)? Sure, she thought him spells but to believe that all his powers are supplied by Mystra?

Then why do even the gods think he's so leet and awesome?


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2008)

> Then why do even the gods think he's so leet and awesome?



Because he's a God Mode Sue for Ed Greenwood. He's everything Ed wants to be, times a thousand. His novels exist for the sole purpose of elaborating on just how infinitely badass Ed made him. He's got power, wisdom, mighty deeds and hot chicks falling all over him, not the least of which is Mystra herself. All handed to him on a silver platter.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Because he's a God Mode Sue for Ed Greenwood. He's everything Ed wants to be, times a thousand. His novels exist for the sole purpose of elaborating on just how infinitely badass Ed made him. He's got power, wisdom, mighty deeds and hot chicks falling all over him, not the least of which is Mystra herself. All handed to him on a silver platter.



But he was also kept as a personal house slave, got turned into a woman for god knows how many years and was tortured in hell for some time.


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Is the magic for Forgotten Realms pre- or post Time Of Troubles? 

Also Elminster has a CR of 45 (39 retconned). Raistlin has one of 35.

Even though feats suggest Raistlin would WTFPWN, CR says differently.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Is the magic for Forgotten Realms pre- or post Time Of Troubles?



I have no idea.


Did I miss something?


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Ryoma Nagare said:


> I have no idea.
> 
> 
> Did I miss something?



)

Magic became more powerful (or rather more advanced) after the time of troubles.

Something interesting to note. Since Elminster has multiclassed into several branches while Raistlin hasn't, Elminster would have trouble even touching Raistlin's massive resistance to magic.

I'm looking at Elminster's character sheet for the moment and trying to find Raistlin's.


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Interesting 4th edition tidbit/fuck up.





> Elminster will still be a powerful figure, but he's afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic.



So basicly, if Elminster uses magic, he's boned and if he doesn't...Raistlin destroys him with a hand motion.


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## Enclave (Jul 19, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> Mystra taught Elminster magic, when her connection was severed during "Shadow of the Avatar" Elminster was all but powerless.
> 
> Its funny how he started as a thief/assasin.



I have the whole shadow of the avatar set, Elminster wasn't all but powerless, everybodys magic in the realm was messed up because Mystra dying messed up the weave.  Elminster still had all his powers, they just were unstable like everybody elses.  One thing of note though is the fact that Elminster's magic was still far more stable than other peoples magic simply because of his vast experience and power.

Even if you disregard the fact that he is one of Mystra's Chosen he's still an extraordinarily powerful arch-mage and he has been seperated from Mystra's influence before and still retained all his powers.

Being one of Mystra's Chosen isn't a power boost.  It gives a few abilities (similar abilities Clerics of Mystra have) and immortality.

Also if you would recall, when the Gods were cast down and were in their avatars, who did most of them go to for help?  That's right, Elminster.

Anyways, from what I've read Elminster does have the greater feats so I'd give him the win.  Hell, wasn't the way that Raistlin beat the gods was via a bloody game of chess?  Ya, super impressive.



> So basicly, if Elminster uses magic, he's boned and if he doesn't...Raistlin destroys him with a hand motion.



I hadn't read that yet, however you can be assured it's a purely temporary setback.  They just want to be able to write some interesting stories about Elminster in the new 4th ed setting.


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Enclave said:


> I hadn't read that yet, however you can be assured it's a purely temporary setback.  They just want to be able to write some interesting stories about Elminster in the new 4th ed setting.



From the Wizards site:


> "Unchecked, ungoverned, the raw stuff of wild magic danced across the world, wreaking terrible destruction. Cities burned, kingdoms fell, luckless people were changed into monsters, and mages went berserk. This was the Spellplague, a rippling outbreak of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of magical catastrophes that left no corner of Faer?n untouched. For almost ten years new outbreaks appeared here and there, striking randomly and without warning. Wherever they struck, chaos reigned."



Every since the Weave is disrupted and especially in 4th edition, Elminster, being a chosen of Mystra is more susceptible than others to Spell Plague. Him casting a spell could basicly destroy both of them accidentally. Untill the Weave gets fully restored, it's basicly a nerf.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2008)

> But he was also kept as a personal house slave,


Small potatoes.



> got turned into a woman for god knows how many years


Not really that big a deal. He probably enjoyed it, boobs and what not.



> and was tortured in hell for some time.



Mystra saved him. To say nothing of the fact that he only survived because he's an ubertough Made of Iron badass in accordance with Ed's inflated opinion of himself. And he had magic fire given to him by Mystra herself that let him heal himself.

That says more about him than being in hell in the first place. Being in hell was just another was for Ed to promote Failminster's badassedness.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Something interesting to note. Since Elminster has multiclassed into several branches while Raistlin hasn't, Elminster would have trouble even touching Raistlin's massive resistance to magic.



Raistline is a level 18 (or 20) Wizard you can say. The Dragonlance setting has a low level limit.

Elminster is a level 24 Wizard and a level 5 Arch Mage...(+the other stuff)



Zetta said:


> Also Elminster has a CR of 45 (39 retconned). *Raistlin has one of 35.*



Source?



Enclave said:


> Anyways, from what I've read Elminster does have the greater feats so I'd give him the win.  Hell, wasn't the way that Raistlin beat the gods was via a bloody game of chess?  Ya, super impressive.



Errr... no.

Raistlin lured Takhisis onto the mortal plane where he killed her in a contest of power (where Huma ages back could only force her back into the Abyss and he had an army of dragons on his side). He then ascended to godhood and proceeded to kill all the other gods as well since they tried to take him down.

His final fight Paladine devastated all of Krynn and turned it into a barren wasteland where nothing was capable of living.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2008)

Huma could have killed Takhisis but he didn't in order to preserve the balance


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 19, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Huma could have killed Takhisis but he didn't in order to preserve the balance



In what novel was this said?

I remember that Raistlin said in one of the Twin novels that Huma was only capable of driving her back but if someone with real power had been there that he (the one with real power not Huma) could have beaten her.


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Raistlin CR was mentioned by at the Wizard's forum once. As far as I know, no other CR was ever given to Raistlin.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2008)

Hmm..You're right.

In Legend of Huma, he said he wasn't able to kill her but the Dragonlances would have given her "eternal suffering", presumably their intent would have been to keep her imprisoned.

Still, he did let her go because of the balance.


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## blueblip (Jul 19, 2008)

Raistlin saying someone didn't have enough power hardly counts for much, as most people by his standards NEVER have as much power as he does. But the balance thing...? Never heard it before. If I remember Huma from his book, I doubt he would have thought along those lines at all. He never struck me as being a preserver of balance type; he just went for the kill.

If only he had let Kaz take the lead...burly minotaur powah would've done it.

EDIT: El in his own series didn't impress me that much. I was more impressed when he tried to take on Bane in the Avatar series, despite magic being all wacked out. THAT took balls.


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## Enclave (Jul 19, 2008)

Zetta said:


> From the Wizards site:
> 
> 
> Every since the Weave is disrupted and especially in 4th edition, Elminster, being a chosen of Mystra is more susceptible than others to Spell Plague. Him casting a spell could basicly destroy both of them accidentally. Untill the Weave gets fully restored, it's basicly a nerf.



I was talking about the previous Mystra's death.  Not Midnight's death.  It was the death of Midnight that caused the whole spell plague (which is over now, the weave has been restored but it's in a far different state than it once was, it's Wizards explanation for why the magic system in 4th ed is so dramatically different from how it was in previous editions).


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## Rice Ball (Jul 19, 2008)

Enclave said:


> I have the whole shadow of the avatar set, Elminster wasn't all but powerless, everybodys magic in the realm was messed up because Mystra dying messed up the weave.  Elminster still had all his powers, they just were unstable like everybody elses.  One thing of note though is the fact that Elminster's magic was still far more stable than other peoples magic simply because of his vast experience and power.



Unstable magic = useless
While Mystra was in a chaotic state, his magic was chaotic, if shes gone, his power would go.
Its likely more to do with his link to Mystra being stronger than others rather than 'experience'. 



Enclave said:


> Even if you disregard the fact that he is one of Mystra's Chosen he's still an extraordinarily powerful arch-mage and he has been seperated from Mystra's influence before and still retained all his powers.



Yeah, like he did when he was in hell :rolleyes



Enclave said:


> Being one of Mystra's Chosen isn't a power boost.  It gives a few abilities (similar abilities Clerics of Mystra have) and immortality.



Dependant on what litriture you are using. 



			
				Ryoma Nagare said:
			
		

> Huh? I thought he learned magic on his own (with his Elven teachers)? Sure, she thought him spells but to believe that all his powers are supplied by Mystra?



I might be wrong, but an avatar of Mystra (who went by the name Myrjala "Darkeyes") trained Elmara(female version of Elminster) in the ways of a mage.


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## Zetta (Jul 19, 2008)

Elminster is still scared shitless about Spell Plague apparently according to Wizards.


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## Rice Ball (Jul 19, 2008)

I doubt Raistlin has that knowledge, so its likely a null factor.


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