# Official NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku Debate Thread [READ FIRST AND SECOND POST!] - Part 1



## Rinoa (Mar 18, 2013)

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## Kathutet (Mar 18, 2013)

*WOAH WAIT A SECOND. READ THIS FIRST.*
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## SoulFire (Jan 11, 2014)

Hi LoH, welcome back to the debate circle!   I see that while I've been composing this you've been having fun in the sandbox with others. 



> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > The point I am trying to make is that: Who will Sakura go to first when everything is over? It's obvious that Sasuke still has something sinister up his sleeve and after that is revealed, who will she really turn to? That's the point. In my opinion, it has everything to do with who's side she will be by and who she values the most. So, yes, it has _everything_ to do with feelings.
> ...


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## ch1p (Jan 11, 2014)

LadyOfHubris said:


> Just because Sakura loves Sasuke, 'as expected', it doesn't disqualify her from developing feelings for someone else.
> 
> Naruto is close to her, no doubt, but we haven't had any insight on what Sakura's current feelings are for him. The only thing we know is that Sakura has progressively begun to see Naruto in a brighter light than what she used to think back in part I. Like I said, she has shown several indications of slowly but gradually developing some sort of feeling towards Naruto. If love with Naruto were not an issue, then why would Kishimoto supposedly say that Naruto's close but she still loves Sasuke?



That's true. What disqualifies Sakura from developing feelings for someone else is something altogether. I.E. there is no indication whatsoever Sakura likes anyone but Sasuke.

The way Sakura loves Sasuke is in your face. The manga goes about it repeteadly (and not just in a gag manner, mind you), the databook goes about it repeatedly (in all three of them), Kishimoto goes about it (people asked him about what Sakura felt for Naruto and he was quick to mention Sasuke without being prompted). So, there are plenty of evidence that Sakura loves Sasuke, from various angles. That's how Sakura loves and how Kishi portrays love in this manga, out in the open and personal. Recently, Sakura confirmed she loved Sasuke. Within 24 hours of the manga's timeline (the love letter chapters, if you don't accept 631 / 632 telling behaviour). Sakura has not dropped a love that has withstood tests upon test, of conditions and time, because of... actually there's no reason whatsoever. The NaruSaku fandom has never given a valid reason as to why she'd drop the. It's something I've asked many times, but never get an answer.

Towards Naruto, there is no such evidence. Everything your fandom brings forward when asked has always been their own biased interpretation of so called 'ambiguous' scenes. I'm not going to bother making a list, although I'm sure I'll be bombarded with 'bedroom eyes' crap soon enough. Regardless, this is what's important: anti-narusaku has a point when we say whatever you bring isn't evidence. Every single one of those scenes can be interpreted in many ways. The most recent would be Sakura did not deny Sasuke's gf comment, so she must love him... if only Sakura wasn't angry and even beating him like she always did when rejecting his advances. Similarly, the only 'Sakura is moving away from Sasuke' argument also falls in this overreaching defence. The 635 fake smile is gunshot by NaruSaku fandom as her re-evaluating her romantic feelings, when... the scene is about Sasuke being a troll to the tailed beasts (with the added bonus of this not being the worse he has ever done in her opinion.) There is no moment where Sakura is thinking about her feelings about Naruto and what they could be. 540 would be the perfect moment when they would have appeared, a bit of a sidenote to the dark Sasuke, but they didn't.

To deny Sakura loves Sasuke is to deny canon. To say Sakura loves Naruto _from what we've seen until now_ is overreaching. Everything tells us Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone.



> Could it be that is one of the flaws about Sakura's character? She still loves this guy that is obviously selfish and doesn't really mean anything good, and that's probably something that needs to be altered?



The manga is about bonds and they are never bashed. So no, that's not the flaw in Sakura's character.



> As for Sai's comment about Sakura's fake smile, that can be interpreted as one of the stepping stones for Sakura's progress in getting over Sasuke. Of course, she's not over Sasuke yet, but I believe she is in the process of it. If he continues down this destructive road, then yes, I see Sakura eventually falling out of love with him.



This argument always goes both ways, which the NaruSaku fandom is always quick to forget. Sakura thought there was no hope for Sasuke and tried to kill him before he sunk even further to darkness. Sasuke tried to kill Sakura (four times!!!1!), that's how evil he was once. However, ATM Sasuke is halfway redeemed and fighting for the good guys. There's no way his views about the tailed beasts, which are actually condoned by the majority of the ninja world, is the deal breaker. You have to find some other scenario.



> Lastly, just because Naruto's feelings have been played as comic relief doesn't mean that they're not serious or still there.



I'm not saying Naruto's feelings aren't there. That actually matters very little. I'm saying his feelings aren't treated as a big deal by canon. Certainly not in the girls' (Sakura and Hinata) levels. That does say something about things.

An example. Kiba wants to be Hokage and this has been treated comedically more times than not. Naruto's wish has been a constant, treated as serious business way more often and with more depth. Who do you feel canon treats more seriously?



> Also, according to Sai, one of the reasons why Naruto won't even confess and come onto Sakura like that is because he knows that she still loves Sasuke. He acknowledged that a long time ago, and has accepted that.



No. What was implied was that Naruto thought he couldn't do it because he couldn't keep his promises, not because Sakura loved Sasuke.



> Why would he do anything serious romance-wise with Sakura when he knows that she loves someone else?



Why wouldn't he?

BTW, if Naruto isn't trying anything with Sakura because he has accepted Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, then you're admitting that he's screwing around in 631. Just like everyone who advocates he was... screwing around in 631 and therefore it means nothing. Careful there, slippery slope.


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## Naiki (Jan 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hi LoH, welcome back to the debate circle!   I see that while I've been composing this you've been having fun in the sandbox with others.



Hey there, SoulFire, and thanks! No doubt, lol. It's great to be back. 



> Honestly, I don't think that Sakura will be forced to make any drastic decisions about whom to save because, as Kurama said, she now has the ability to heal both of her boys, either via her forehead seal or her slug summons. It is a moot point: Should this scene arise, she can and will heal them both.



Hm, you guys are right. I concede to both you and Kurama. I was trying to look at it from a point of view from where Sakura would go to if she were confronted with a situation such as this. 




> That panel was Hinata witnessing Naruto's welcome home from his village. She was standing with her clan and clearly happy for him. I think there is far too much emphasis placed on those ellipses. Why should she feel threatened by seeing him receive a relieved hug from his team mate?



That can also be a way of looking at it. Then again, that scene can be very ambiguous, but I just found  it strange that they would cut to Hinata right after we see Sakura embracing Naruto in that sort of way. It looked rather suspicious to me.



> The old 'admiration' theory was disproved when Hinata voiced her feelings while facing down Pain. She *loves* Naruto. Period. She no longer blushes and stammers in his presence, and she has fainted _only once_, when startled by his sudden appearance inches from her face after years apart.
> 
> Hinata has made every indication that she desires to be Naruto's girl. She has repeatedly told the audience that she wants to be by his side after the war, holding his hand forever. Her intentions are pretty clear and they don't appear to be platonic in nature. Naruto is no Shinobi 'rock star' that she wants to admire from afar: He is an amazing boy with whom she wants to share her future.



Admiration can also be a form of love. Most celebrities have fans that love them too. I do agree that she doesn't blush and stammer in his presence anymore. This is a part of her character development, I suppose. It would be ridiculous to still have her fainting and stammering into the conclusion of the manga. 

"Being by his side" is sort of ambiguous, in my opinion. Her wanting to be by his side could also mean her desire to fight together as strong individuals. There's also the fact that she said that while in the midst of combat. It would be sort of awkward to have her expressing a desire to be with someone like that when she doesn't even know she's going to make it out of there alive. 

And in the end, she got what she desired. She fought by his side; hand-in-hand. Her wish was completed. Maybe she wants to do that for the rest of her life? Fight with her future Hokage side-by-side as equals? She has always looked up to Naruto, right? Wouldn't it be an honor for her to stand as equals with him?





> Nothing wrong with being selfish about those you care for. Naruto has also called himself selfish in that way. I just don't think Hinata even considers Sakura a threat.



That's because Hinata knows that Sakura loves Sasuke. It would be illogical for her to consider someone a threat who she thinks isn't interested. It was strange to show Hinata's reaction after a so-called platonic hug, though. I mean, if it was so platonic, why would how Hinata reacted matter? I can admit that Hinata's love/admiration for Naruto is selfless though. In the beginning, Naruto's crush-like love for Sakura was selfish. He felt threatened by Sasuke and he continued to pursue Sakura knowing that she didn't feel that way. However, as time went on, Naruto's feelings for her progressed into something more selfless. He acknowledged that she loved Sasuke and backed off, because he was only looking for her happiness. 

I bet Naruto doesn't consider Sasuke a threat anymore because his feelings for Sakura aren't so selfish anymore. He has accepted it and wants her to be happy. Plus, I think he's aware that Sasuke doesn't feel the same way. Naruto's feelings for Sakura are completely selfless.

That's one of the reasons why he gave the PoaL. 



> Uh, no. Sakura's expression is borne of sadness, not threatened feelings. She is trying to save a fellow Kunoichi's life, and she realizes just how much this girl is willing to give for the boy she loves. I see not one iota of jealousy in those panels. I see empathy.



That's my point. If she were so absorbed with helping a fellow kunoichi, why would she have time to think about something like that? Tenten certainly wasn't thinking about such a thing, and no one else in that group. Also, Sakura's expression can be taken as being distressed. Not over Naruto, but more over Hinata's feelings itself. She could be saddened by the fact that Hinata loves a good guy while she's stuck loving a terrible guy. Who knows? Maybe that's why she has that sad expression on her face. 



> Seems to me we've discussed this scene before. Lord knows I have. The crowd does not personally know Naruto and Sakura. They are surprised to see the hug immediately following the knock on the head (to which they react negatively). As you say, Kakashi, himself, is startled. All you have to do is look at Naruto's behavior and reaction (or lack there of) to see how really romantic the moment is. As the recipient of the hug he should be reciprocating, or at least glancing her way. Instead he is more entranced with the cheering crowd ahead of him. The hug represents the joy, concern and care that Sakura--and indeed the entire village feels.



Yes, we have discussed this before, lol. However, I will say this. A crowd doesn't have to know two people personally to initiate this reaction. Hell, I'd blush if I saw two people acting so romantically. Why do you think most people hoot and holler when they see a kiss scene in a movie or a love scene? That's the same instance here. Never will you see people blush or become fluster at a simple platonic hug. They would've just simply brushed it off as simply another hug from one person to another. Also, the crowd didn't show a negative reaction to her knocking him on the dead. In fact, no reaction to that was in the panel. There was, however, a reaction to the embrace. 

Yes, Kakashi was startled to see one of his students show such affection for another student in such a way. I'm sure if it were platonic, nobody there would be reacting that way. Each of the people surrounding had blushes on their faces, and even the little girl by Naruto is clasping her hands together as if she's looking at a couple just exchange a kiss. I think that embrace was meant to show that some sort of romantic undertone. I agree that the hug contained joy, concern and gratitude, but it was looked at as having a romantic undertone as well. The majority of the people surrounding thought that as well, else they wouldn't have reacted that way/ 




> Sakura's feelings for Naruto were made abundantly and painfully clear via her Iron Country confession. She knows he's a great guy, but she just can't bring herself to romantically love him. She even looks uncomfortable in touching him in a 'romantic' manner.



I don't think so. Her expression throughout the confession looked thoroughly content within the duration of it. Naruto was the only one stiff as a board because he knew she was lying. It wasn't until she began talking about Sasuke that she looked uncomfortable, and that's where the lie was caught. Also, she never denied loving Naruto, she actually defended it.  The one denying it was Naruto. She even defended herself and said, "Only I know what I'm feeling!" That's true, nobody knows.

What we _do_ know is that she still loves Sasuke. That's all. 




> Sakura's feelings for both of her boys are equally strong--they are just different in nature. Platonic vs romantic.



We don't know what Sakura's feelings for Naruto are. She hasn't stated what she feels for him since part I. Some of her actions up until this point have come off as possibly romantic, depending on one's interpretation. As for me, some of the things she has done come off as romantic, including that Pein Arc hug. 





> I can agree with all of this and can also see it pertaining to Naruto's feelings for Sakura (and regarding a platonic 'enduring love', Sakura for Naruto as well).



Thanks. I've expressed why I think she might be developing romantic love for Naruto above.



> Regarding Naruto's feelings: He is the one who put his feelings for her to the back burner and I believe he has gradually cut off the gas. There just could be something new starting to warm up on that front burner.



Do you have proof that he has cut off the burner? His feelings have recently been touched on by the Minato 'girlfriend' comment, so it's evident that he still feels something. This was after the hand-holding incident with Hinata, so he can't be moving on to Hinata when he obviously still has something for Sakura. He hasn't even shown any indication that he is even seeing Hinata in that light. 



> That flashback from Sai is old, old news and much has occurred since that time that could have negated any remaining significance. The fact that the only 'serious' treatment of Naruto's feelings for Sakura come in a second hand memory is telling.



That was to the people saying that Naruto hasn't shown any indication of romantic feelings for Sakura in part II. However, there recently has been an indication of his still linger feelings lately, which was listed above.


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## Naiki (Jan 11, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's true. What disqualifies Sakura from developing feelings for someone else is something altogether. I.E. there is no indication whatsoever Sakura likes anyone but Sasuke.
> 
> The way Sakura loves Sasuke is in your face. The manga goes about it repeteadly (and not just in a gag manner, mind you), the databook goes about it repeatedly (in all three of them), Kishimoto goes about it (people asked him about what Sakura felt for Naruto and he was quick to mention Sasuke without being prompted). So, there are plenty of evidence that Sakura loves Sasuke, from various angles. That's how Sakura loves and how Kishi portrays love in this manga, out in the open and personal. Recently, Sakura confirmed she loved Sasuke. Within 24 hours of the manga's timeline (the love letter chapters, if you don't accept 631 / 632 telling behaviour). Sakura has not dropped a love that has withstood tests upon test, of conditions and time, because of... actually there's no reason whatsoever. The NaruSaku fandom has never given a valid reason as to why she'd drop the. It's something I've asked many times, but never get an answer.
> 
> ...



Firstly, no one is arguing against the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke. I have even placed that in my arguments. Yes, she loves Sasuke and also, no one has said that Sakura loves Naruto. I said that she may be developing feelings, but no one has said that she straight out loves him. When you are in the process of developing feelings, sometimes you do things without being conscious of it. I have produced examples as to why I think Sakura might be developing feelings. I never said that she was already in love with Naruto. 

Let me also address the possibility that the reason Sakura might have poundcaked Naruto after he told that lie about her being his girlfriend is because of the fact that he _did_ lie. I mean, she's the type of person to reprimand him for things like that, so why can't that be the reason she poundcaked him?

She certainly didn't object to the idea of being with Naruto romantically when she gave that confession, now, did she? She was okay with that. If she wasn't, she would have just told him the straight up truth, but overall, she was thinking of his feelings. So, why would this be different? 





> The manga is about bonds and they are never bashed. So no, that's not the flaw in Sakura's character.



Just because she might not love Sasuke anymore, doesn't mean that she can't have the bond as a teammate with him and a friend. That's what is important. Just because she might fall out of love with Sasuke, that destroys her bond with him? If that's the case, Sakura is nothing more than love fodder. I give Sakura more credit than that. 

The flaw is that she is constantly being heartbroken by this guy that has attempted to kill her on more occasions than one while she has this other guy who is always there by her side and thinks of her happiness. She even stated so herself during the confession. 





> This argument always goes both ways, which the NaruSaku fandom is always quick to forget. Sakura thought there was no hope for Sasuke and tried to kill him before he sunk even further to darkness. Sasuke tried to kill Sakura (four times!!!1!), that's how evil he was once. However, ATM Sasuke is halfway redeemed and fighting for the good guys. There's no way his views about the tailed beasts, which are actually condoned by the majority of the ninja world, is the deal breaker. You have to find some other scenario.



She didn't just do it for Sasuke, but she also did it because she felt she was the one causing Naruto the most harm because of the PoaL. She was considering Naruto's feelings, which is why she also felt she needed to do something. 

Also, Sasuke is not one of the good guys. At the moment, he is helping to get rid of Madara. What do you think will happen once all this mess is over with? He won't be on the good guys side anymore. He and Naruto will eventually fight to the death, so will he still be a 'good guy' if he somehow manages to kill Naruto and claim the seat of Hokage? He's not a villain, but he certainly isn't on the side of the protagonist either. 

In case you haven't noticed yet, Sasuke acts on his own accords, meaning he is selfish. He doesn't give a darn about what anyone thinks and he will definitely turn on anyone who gets in the way of his goals. Itachi described him as easily influenced, so yes. He can be blowing one way for a day, but could be blowing another way the next day.  





> I'm not saying Naruto's feelings aren't there. That actually matters very little. I'm saying his feelings aren't treated as a big deal by canon. Certainly not in the girls' (Sakura and Hinata) levels. That does say something about things.
> 
> An example. Kiba wants to be Hokage and this has been treated comedically more times than not. Naruto's wish has been a constant, treated as serious business way more often and with more depth. Who do you feel canon treats more seriously?



It's not treated as a big deal because Naruto doesn't treat his feelings as a big deal. He thinks that the girl he likes is still in love with someone else, so he placed his feelings on the back burner a long time ago. He has accepted that his feelings were not reciprocated and he has been concentrating on bigger and better things ever since. 

Also, you can't compare Kiba's desire to be Hokage as comical with Naruto's feelings being placed on a back burner. Naruto chooses to push his feelings aside. Kiba has no choice but to be viewed as comical, because he is no where near as powerful as Naruto and he doesn't possess what it takes to be Hokage. 




> No. What was implied was that Naruto thought he couldn't do it because he couldn't keep his promises, not because Sakura loved Sasuke.



Yes, but even before that, Naruto had stopped coming onto Sakura like that. Even if Sasuke came back, I doubt Naruto would try to come onto Sakura anyway because he knows she loves him. He accepted that back when he gave the PoaL. That's one of the reasons why I think he won't tell her that he likes her. 





> Why wouldn't he?
> 
> BTW, if Naruto isn't trying anything with Sakura because he has accepted Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, then you're admitting that he's screwing around in 631. Just like everyone who advocates he was... screwing around in 631 and therefore it means nothing. Careful there, slippery slope.



Because his feelings for her are selfless like that. Why would he come onto a girl and he knows she doesn't feel that way? That's not in Naruto's character anymore. He has matured. 

Just because he said that Sakura was his girlfriend, that doesn't mean he hasn't accepted that she loves someone else. Hell, he could've been saying that he _looked_ at Sakura as a girlfriend. That would just be how he felt. It's not like he went out of his way to ask her on a date or anything and begin a romantic relationship with her. He simply answered his father's question according to his own feelings.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Firstly, no one is arguing against the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke. I have even placed that in my arguments.




I placed it there as groundwork.



> Yes, she loves Sasuke and also, no one has said that Sakura loves Naruto. I said that she may be developing feelings, but no one has said that she straight out loves him. When you are in the process of developing feelings, sometimes you do things without being conscious of it. I have produced examples as to why I think Sakura might be developing feelings. I never said that she was already in love with Naruto.



This is the issue and this is why I placed that groundwork for SasuSaku, as a comparison. This is what I mean when I say you have nothing but your wishful thinking. There is no groundwork for Sakura developing romantic feelings for Naruto.

If Sakura is to fall in love with Naruto, surelly something must be there just like for SasuSaku, even if its just to point out she may be developing feelings. However, there are no such moments. All you have are scenes that your fandom interprets one way and the other side interprets another way. More times (if not all) of these scenes are interpreted by your fandom in a schizophrenic way, while the other side takes context into account.

I'll give the same example again, since you have used it as well: the whole 635 fake smile. Sasuke is watching the tailed beasts burn and Sakura isn't happy about that. It's about what Sasuke is doing and we've had Sakura react to much worse things what he has done before. However, the NaruSaku fandom forgets context and history, and just claims this could be Sakura falling out of love for Sasuke (the umptieth time too). There is no reason to jump to this conclusion.



> Let me also address the possibility that the reason Sakura might have poundcaked Naruto after he told that lie about her being his girlfriend is because of the fact that he _did_ lie. I mean, she's the type of person to reprimand him for things like that, so why can't that be the reason she poundcaked him?



Of course Naruto lied and of course she pounded him for it. However, you're keen on ignoring that Sakura's shtick for over the whole manga has been to be angry at Naruto when he says something about them under a romantic context. You're ignoring that this has always been code tropefier for Sakura's rejection of Naruto's advances.



> She certainly didn't object to the idea of being with Naruto romantically when she gave that confession, now, did she? She was okay with that. If she wasn't, she would have just told him the straight up truth, but overall, she was thinking of his feelings. So, why would this be different?



No. There was a second part to the plan. Shikamaru told Sakura they needed to kill Sasuke to end the cycle of revenge, this is why she was accompanied to Iron Country by some of the Leaf 12. It's later revealed Sakura's reasons for killing Sasuke were different (or ammended). However, the plan was always to go kill Sasuke, the confessing was what was planned over the knee. The guys from Leaf 12 that accompany Sakura all react surprised because she's going off the script. Later, Yamato mentions that quite clearly, saying 'that means she never meant to tell him [naruto] in the first place, what is she (really) planning'.

Sai told all this to Naruto, also told him she was prepared for Naruto to hate Sakura for that. You don't have romantic relationships with people you hate. Sakura said what she said, but she never meant to go through it because she was nuking any type of positive bond with Naruto by killing Sasuke.

Sakura having a relationship with Naruto is well exemplified in her actions. She thinks he has become a great person, but she's not interested in dating him (since outside of the fake confession, where she's said to be lying and we know she was planning on nuking a positive relationship with Naruto in the first place, she has always rejected him). You can cherish someone and still not want to date him. That is the case of Sakura towards Naruto.



> Just because she might not love Sasuke anymore, doesn't mean that she can't have the bond as a teammate with him and a friend. That's what is important. Just because she might fall out of love with Sasuke, that destroys her bond with him? If that's the case, Sakura is nothing more than love fodder. I give Sakura more credit than that.



That's nice, but that wasn't your original argument. You were advocating Sakura loving Sasuke romantically is a flaw in her character, because he's selfish and doesn't really mean anything good. That wouldn't change if Sakura loved him as a friend or as a teammate. He'd still be selfish and not really mean anything good.

Regarding the Sakura as nothing but love fodder and that you give her more credit than I supposed do, that's a weak excuse. I'm a SasuSaku fan defending her relationship with Sasuke is romantic and her relationship with Naruto is platonic, in other words I'm defending a big part of her character is romantic (Sasuke) and another big part of her character is not romantic (Naruto). You're the one advocating the big big part of her character that is about Sasuke has been romantic 99% of the time and that the big part of her character that has been about Naruto has been 100% has been romantic (since she's been in the process of falling for him all this time). Don't accuse me of something you're even more guilty of doing. You're the one making Sakura to be nothing but love fodder.



> The flaw is that she is constantly being heartbroken by this guy that has attempted to kill her on more occasions than one while she has this other guy who is always there by her side and thinks of her happiness. She even stated so herself during the confession.



First, you'd do well in remember Naruto said Sakura was lying to herself when she said those things.

Second, Sakura is heartbroken because Sasuke is being evil, not because she has romantic feelings for him. She'd be heartbroken if her feelings were platonic.

Third, Naruto may well be part of Sakura's happiness, but that doesn't mean it has to be a romantic happiness.



> She didn't just do it for Sasuke, but she also did it because she felt she was the one causing Naruto the most harm because of the PoaL. She was considering Naruto's feelings, which is why she also felt she needed to do something.



That's overreaching. At no point does Sakura (or even Sai) say she's killing Sasuke for Naruto. In fact, Sai says it quite clearly 'it's because she loves him that she'll kill him'. Nothing more.



> Also, Sasuke is not one of the good guys. At the moment, he is helping to get rid of Madara. What do you think will happen once all this mess is over with? He won't be on the good guys side anymore.He and Naruto will eventually fight to the death, so will he still be a 'good guy' if he somehow manages to kill Naruto and claim the seat of Hokage? He's not a villain, but he certainly isn't on the side of the protagonist either.



What I said is that he's half redempted, not fully redempted. Sakura has loved him through his worse and whatever he's doing now and whatever he'll do after isn't his worse. If he'd gone worse, there would be no point in making him change his mind about nuking the Leaf in 627. Once more, I'll say it. Sakura has loved him through his worse. This isn't a game changer. That has come and went. He tried to kill her. Four timez!!!1!



> In case you haven't noticed yet, Sasuke acts on his own accords, meaning he is selfish. He doesn't give a darn about what anyone thinks and he will definitely turn on anyone who gets in the way of his goals. *Itachi described him as easily influenced, so yes. He can be blowing one way for a day, but could be blowing another way the next day. *



You think Sasuke is easily influenced and that he can change "sides" of what he approaches things... I disagree with this on a general principle, since Sasuke has resisted Naruto's TnJ when nobody else did. Itachi has also admitted he fucked up with Sasuke, by thinking he was one thing and then him behaving in another.

However, let's recap here. You're the one saying that Sasuke can change his outlook on things that easily. You don't agree Sasuke is a static character. That means Sasuke changing his stance on a relationship with Sakura is actually quite believable as far as you're concerned.



> It's not treated as a big deal because Naruto doesn't treat his feelings as a big deal. He thinks that the girl he likes is still in love with someone else, so he placed his feelings on the back burner a long time ago. He has accepted that his feelings were not reciprocated and he has been concentrating on bigger and better things ever since.



I'm sorry, but if they're not a big deal, if he has accepted he's not reciprocated, and has been concentrating on better things then why do you think he's the one who's going to be pandered to in the end, when it's the girls' love which is treated as a big deal and which is what they've been concentrating in?

You're advocating that the depth of the Hinata -> Naruto and Sakura -> Sasuke bonds are going to be dropped, so it will pander to Naruto's when his feelings are as good as resolved. Because that's how it's you portray them. Naruto doesn't think they're a big deal to pursue, he has accepted he isn't reciprocated, and he has found better things to do with his time.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

> Also, you can't compare Kiba's desire to be Hokage as comical with Naruto's feelings being placed on a back burner. Naruto chooses to push his feelings aside. Kiba has no choice but to be viewed as comical, because he is no where near as powerful as Naruto and he doesn't possess what it takes to be Hokage.



LOL.

Let's recap, Naruto's feelings for Sakura, they are not a big deal, he has accepted he isn't reciprocated and found better things to do. He "waved" the white flag. However, with Naruto has pushed Kiba's feelings aside (according to you). Such, they are a big deal for Naruto and he's not accepting someone's 'contrary' opinion about it, he's not finding better things to do and he's still pushing for this relentlessly.

Let's also recap, Sakura and Hinata's feelings for their boys are "powerful", but its Naruto's whose feelings have been recurrently portrayed as less powerful that it's going to pandered to.

You contradict yourself. For something like the Hokage position, then Naruto's "strenght of feelings" and "powerful outlook" will win against Kiba's "comic relief" feelings and power. However, in the love department, Sakura and Hinata with their "strenght of feelings" and "powerful outlook" are the ones getting owned against Naruto and his "comic relief" feelings and power. AHAHAHAH! 

At least Kiba hasn't quit and is still trying to get the Hokage position as serious as he is, which is more than I can say about Naruto, who hasn't pursued Sakura seriously since... a long time ago.



> Yes, but even before that, Naruto had stopped coming onto Sakura like that. Even if Sasuke came back, I doubt Naruto would try to come onto Sakura anyway because he knows she loves him. He accepted that back when he gave the PoaL. That's one of the reasons why I think he won't tell her that he likes her.



You say it very well. Naruto has quit a long time ago and its not like he's going to do anything to change that.



> Because his feelings for her are selfless like that. Why would he come onto a girl and he knows she doesn't feel that way? That's not in Naruto's character anymore. He has matured.



Yes, Naruto is a mature gentleman. It's not like he's stating Sakura is his girlfriend when its a lie in very recent times.



> Just because he said that Sakura was his girlfriend, that doesn't mean he hasn't accepted that she loves someone else.



It's one or the other. 

You said twice in this post that Naruto has accepted his feelings are not reciprocated. I'll quote them here: "He has accepted that his feelings were not reciprocated and he has been concentrating on bigger and better things ever since." and "Even if Sasuke came back, I doubt Naruto would try to come onto Sakura anyway because he knows she loves him. He accepted that back when he gave the PoaL. That's one of the reasons why I think he won't tell her that he likes her."

Decide, please.



> Hell, he could've been saying that he _looked_ at Sakura as a girlfriend. That would just be how he felt. It's not like he went out of his way to ask her on a date or anything and begin a romantic relationship with her. He simply answered his father's question according to his own feelings.



Once again, NaruSaku only has the 'personal interpretation' excuse for a moment. There's no indication that this is the case besides your wishful thinking.

If you're admitting the 'girlfriend' comment is just a quip and not indicative of his feelings, I might recycle this old argument: 'Naruto hasn't mentioned his romantic interest in Sakura ever since Hinata confessed to him. That gives him plenty of time to have moved on.'


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## SoulFire (Jan 12, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > Hey there, SoulFire, and thanks! No doubt, lol. It's great to be back.
> ...


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## sakuraboobs (Jan 12, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> The way I see it, Naruto and Sasuke are going to inevitably fight, right? They both have to fight each other to the death for the title of Hokage and this plays into which pairing is going to be selected. When Naruto and Sasuke are battling each other, Sakura is going to be placed in the middle of this and this opens her up for more character development. When the both of them are lying on the ground nearly death, who is the one she's going to go to first?
> 
> Naruto or Sasuke?



Fanfic much? and even if such a scenario occurs Sakura will surely help both, she is capable of that. Did you miss the chapter where she healed all Shinobi Alliance alone?  

Sakura saving Naruto or Sasuke has nothing to do with who the hell she will end up but with her resolution of protecting them both because they are her dear ones.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 12, 2014)

It's not a romance, and as such, romance has had nothing important to do with the plot as of now. That being said, the small amounts of romance which we nitpick upon are the only things keeping this thread going. I think what needs to be remembered is this: Most shonen manga have the pairings set from the beginning as it has nothing to do with the main plot. Only the minor.
That being said, it's still possible both ways, but to even SUGGEST Sakura is getting over Sasuke, but Naruto isn't getting over Sakura is folly at best. Naruto's attitude towards Sakura has matured and changed a LOT since part 1. He has kept a fair bit more distance from her flirting wise. This leads me to believe he's done trying to change her mind. He knows she loves Sasuke. He knows that for 3 years her opinion was UNWAVERING. I doubt that will change anytime soon.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This is the issue and this is why I placed that groundwork for SasuSaku, as a comparison. This is what I mean when I say you have nothing but your wishful thinking. There is no groundwork for Sakura developing romantic feelings for Naruto.
> 
> If Sakura is to fall in love with Naruto, surelly something must be there just like for SasuSaku, even if its just to point out she may be developing feelings. However, there are no such moments. All you have are scenes that your fandom interprets one way and the other side interprets another way. More times (if not all) of these scenes are interpreted by your fandom in a schizophrenic way, while the other side takes context into account.
> 
> I'll give the same example again, since you have used it as well: the whole 635 fake smile. Sasuke is watching the tailed beasts burn and Sakura isn't happy about that. It's about what Sasuke is doing and we've had Sakura react to much worse things what he has done before. However, the NaruSaku fandom forgets context and history, and just claims this could be Sakura falling out of love for Sasuke (the umptieth time too). There is no reason to jump to this conclusion.



It isn't wishful thinking. It's interpretation. There are plenty of incidents where Naruto has done things that can be interpreted as romantic. If you want me to post a build-up, I will. Also, by your logic, I can say that most Naruhina's interpretation of that hand-holding incident can be wishful thinking, and NaruHina hasn't had nearly as much development as NaruSaku. By that logic, I can also say that there is no groundwork for Naruto developing romantic feelings for Hinata.

Again, if Naruto was to fall in love with Hinata, there has to be some groundwork for him pointing to falling in love with her. Naruto has never shown any interest in Hinata like that. Hell, he's never around the girl, and we are expected to believe that he so suddenly sprouted feelings for her? I believe before you mentioned something about bonds being not so easily broken. Well, what about in Naruto's case?

If bonds can't be so easily broken, then why would Naruto fall out of love with Sakura so easily (who hasn't don't anything horrible to warrant such a thing) when he hasn't even given up on Sasuke who has done all this terrible crap to him? On top of that, he considers him a friend.  

_All you have are scenes that your fandom interprets one way and the other side interprets another way. More times (if not all) of these scenes are interpreted by your fandom in a schizophrenic way, while the other side takes context into account._

I can turn it around and say the same for NaruHina. When you look at the context of the hand-holding scene, the context of that situation doesn't allow that gesture to be viewed as romantic. They are in the midst of battle with Hinata's dead cousin just several feet away. In a way, that incident can be interpreted as more camaraderie than anything. The only one who appears to be looking at that moment as romantic is Hinata, and that's understandable because she's in love with the dude. However, in my opinion, Naruto doesn't look to be feeling that way. All I see him do was grab Hinata's hand in appreciation, because after all, he was thanking Hinata _and_ Neji for fighting by his side. On top of that, romance wasn't even crossing his mind at that moment. In fact, he was thinking about his parents, Jiraiya, and all the people that he knows have faith in him. 

Yet, you claim that my fandom is interpreting things not based on context, yet NaruHina fans are quick to jump to a scene that doesn't even allow such a thing to be interpreted that way. Reading comprehension is key to understanding something. 

_I'll give the same example again, since you have used it as well: the whole 635 fake smile. Sasuke is watching the tailed beasts burn and Sakura isn't happy about that. It's about what Sasuke is doing and we've had Sakura react to much worse things what he has done before. However, the NaruSaku fandom forgets context and history, and just claims this could be Sakura falling out of love for Sasuke (the umptieth time too). There is no reason to jump to this conclusion._ 

Well, why would she burst out and cry like cry baby when Sasuke is currently fighting on the side of the alliance? That would be stupid. He's obviously fighting with them, so she doesn't have to really stress over Sasuke doing things that might threaten their lives, yes, but she's still uncertain and upset about him because she knows that he has something up his sleeve. I don't understand what you're trying to prove with that, but okay. 

You keep bringing up the NaruSaku fandom, but we have the right to interpret things just as the other fandom does. The NaruHina fandom doesn't always interpret things within context, and I gave an example why above. You can't criticize a fandom when your fandom does the same thing. Each fandom has their own bias and interprets things based off of the preference for the favorite pairing, so don't call out fandoms for interpreting things the way that they do. 





> Of course Naruto lied and of course she pounded him for it. However, you're keen on ignoring that Sakura's shtick for over the whole manga has been to be angry at Naruto when he says something about them under a romantic context. You're ignoring that this has always been code tropefier for Sakura's rejection of Naruto's advances.



The only time I remember Sakura ever poundcaking Naruto in the manga was in part I, and that was also in the beginning when her opinion of Naruto was even that high. He was lying then and she pound-caked him. He was lying to his father, and she pound-caked him. I don't see how that shows that she's disgusted at the idea of being his girlfriend. In fact, it's suggesting that she might be embarrassed at the thought of being his girlfriend. Normally, when someone embarrasses you in public, you act aggressively, no? 





> No. There was a second part to the plan. Shikamaru told Sakura they needed to kill Sasuke to end the cycle of revenge, this is why she was accompanied to Iron Country by some of the Leaf 12. It's later revealed Sakura's reasons for killing Sasuke were different (or ammended). However, the plan was always to go kill Sasuke, the confessing was what was planned over the knee. The guys from Leaf 12 that accompany Sakura all react surprised because she's going off the script. Later, Yamato mentions that quite clearly, saying 'that means she never meant to tell him [naruto] in the first place, what is she (really) planning'.
> 
> Sai told all this to Naruto, also told him she was prepared for Naruto to hate Sakura for that. You don't have romantic relationships with people you hate. Sakura said what she said, but she never meant to go through it because she was nuking any type of positive bond with Naruto by killing Sasuke.




Still doesn't change the fact that she was also acting because she was thinking about Naruto's feelings. She didn't have to lie to him. She didn't even have to make a confession. She could've simply said, "I want you go come back to Konoha with me". That's all. Sakura felt as if she was relying on Naruto too much, and she was causing him pain because of the life long burden that she had thought she placed on him. Then, there's the fact that Sai tells Sakura that Sasuke is garnering this sadness deep inside of Naruto. look here. She even states that she didn't want to make anymore mistakes and that she was the one who was causing Naruto the most pain.  look here. She even thinks that Naruto is a fool for loving someone like her, who obviously causes him so much pain. 

You can't deny that the fact that Sasuke is causing Naruto this supposed pain is also one of the reasons why she decided to kill him. Yes, Sakura wants to kill Sasuke as well because she doesn't want to see him walk down darkness, but that's not the only reason either. In a way, she wants to kill Sasuke for both herself *and* Naruto.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

> Sakura having a relationship with Naruto is well exemplified in her actions. She thinks he has become a great person, but she's not interested in dating him (since outside of the fake confession, where she's said to be lying and we know she was planning on nuking a positive relationship with Naruto in the first place, she has always rejected him). You can cherish someone and still not want to date him. That is the case of Sakura towards Naruto.



First of all, no one has addressed Sakura's feelings as false except Naruto, himself. Throughout the storyline, Naruto has always believed that Sasuke was the one, so why would he so easily believe that she might be developing interest in him? That's because he won't believe such a thing so easily. If you are rejected enough, you will start to doubt that person when they actually begin to become interested. That's how it works. 

Also, if she didn't want to date him, then why would she accept them when he would comically ask her out on one? Even back in part I, she asked _him_ out on a date to talk to him. Sakura's feeligns for Naruto are up for interpretation and are ambiguous until there is verification from her. As stated before, "He's close, but she still loves Sasuke as expected". 





> That's nice, but that wasn't your original argument. You were advocating Sakura loving Sasuke romantically is a flaw in her character, because he's selfish and doesn't really mean anything good. That wouldn't change if Sakura loved him as a friend or as a teammate. He'd still be selfish and not really mean anything good.



Yes, it is a flaw for her because it's causing her pain. Why should she love a guy that caused her all this pain? It's certainly not something she cherishes, since she had such a depressed expression on her face for loving such a guy. If she loves a guy like this, then that tells the reader that she doesn't have much self worth. Hanging onto unhealthy feelings like that will only bring unnecessary heartbreak. 

Hell, I can say the same for Naruto. His unhealthy feelings for his friend is just that: unhealthy. Why is it that it seems like all of the other rookie nine have given up their bonds with Sasuke, except Naruto and Sakura? I can understand why Naruto hasn't because Sasuke is his first friend and his first bond. Sasuke is the one that understands him the most out of everyone. Sakura really has no reason to hold onto Sasuke like she does, yes, he is a former teammate but he was a horrible one. Sasuke was never really nice to her, so why hold onto something like that? It's not healthy for her. 



> Regarding the Sakura as nothing but love fodder and that you give her more credit than I supposed do, that's a weak excuse. I'm a SasuSaku fan defending her relationship with Sasuke is romantic and her relationship with Naruto is platonic, in other words I'm defending a big part of her character is romantic (Sasuke) and another big part of her character is not romantic (Naruto). You're the one advocating the big big part of her character that is about Sasuke has been romantic 99% of the time and that the big part of her character that has been about Naruto has been 100% has been romantic (since she's been in the process of falling for him all this time). Don't accuse me of something you're even more guilty of doing. You're the one making Sakura to be nothing but love fodder.



I don't understand how a person can be a NaruHina fan and A SasuSaku fan whilst opposed to NaruSaku. SasuSaku is the polar opposite of ANY pairing in that manga and it's a basically a contradiction to the others. Also, you're the one advocating that you want her to still be in love with this dude that treats her like crap and you don't want her to move on based upon your own preferences. You're making her out to be some lovesick teen who can't get over an old crush and move onto better things. You'd rather she be with a guy that has attempted to kill her twice rather than a dude that actually cares about her and her feelings.




> First, you'd do well in remember Naruto said Sakura was lying to herself when she said those things.
> 
> Second, Sakura is heartbroken because Sasuke is being evil, not because she has romantic feelings for him. She'd be heartbroken if her feelings were platonic.
> 
> Third, Naruto may well be part of Sakura's happiness, but that doesn't mean it has to be a romantic happiness.



First, okay? Just because Naruto thinks she's lying doesn't mean that it's true. Does that make everything that comes out of Naruto's mouth as a fact? No, especially when there was no verification that she was actually lying. In fact, the only thing that was pointed out as a lie was her feelings for Sasuke, not her feelings for Naruto. The only one who did that was Naruto, and Sakura even vehemently defended herself against that. 

Second, that love letter scene says otherwise. When the guy made the statement that she was in love with a good guy, she obviously made a face as if to say, "No, the guy I'm in love with isn't a good guy." She's definitely not overjoyed that she's in love with this guy, now is she? That is one of the first steps toward getting over someone. Denial and then acceptance. Those are the steps to getting over something and moving on. She has accepted the fact that Sasuke isn't a good guy, and that's progress, while before, she always thought Sasuke was flawless. 

Third, happiness is happiness. There is no "romantic" happiness or "platonic" happiness. If you are content with a person, then that's who you need to be around. 





> That's overreaching. At no point does Sakura (or even Sai) say she's killing Sasuke for Naruto. In fact, Sai says it quite clearly 'it's because she loves him that she'll kill him'. Nothing more.



Apparently, you must have missed the whole chapter where Sai tells Sakura what the deal is about Naruto. She obviously feels guilty about placing that burden on him and she is aware of the fact that Sasuke is supposedly causing this pain, so I interpret as Sakura atoning for the lifelong burden she placed on him. She was even willing to have Naruto hate her but she was thinking of Naruto's as well as her own feelings. Sai even states this after the confession. look here. This whole time, she's been acting on her feelings as well as Naruto's. 





> What I said is that he's half redempted, not fully redempted. Sakura has loved him through his worse and whatever he's doing now and whatever he'll do after isn't his worse. If he'd gone worse, there would be no point in making him change his mind about nuking the Leaf in 627. Once more, I'll say it. Sakura has loved him through his worse. This isn't a game changer. That has come and went. He tried to kill her. Four timez!!!1!



Agreed, and it wasn't until he actually started to act this way that she began seeing this side of Sasuke that she never saw before. When you want the person that you love to change, you keep having faith in them, of course. However, if that person doesn't show signs of trying to change or do anything productive, then I'm sure that person will eventually get tired of waiting and hoping. That faith will slowly dwindle over time, and that's what I think is currently happening with Sakura. She certainly doesn't think Sasuke's an awesome anymore, and that's the first step of getting over a unhealthy relationship.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

> You think Sasuke is easily influenced and that he can change "sides" of what he approaches things... I disagree with this on a general principle, since Sasuke has resisted Naruto's TnJ when nobody else did. Itachi has also admitted he fucked up with Sasuke, by thinking he was one thing and then him behaving in another.
> 
> However, let's recap here. You're the one saying that Sasuke can change his outlook on things that easily. You don't agree Sasuke is a static character. That means Sasuke changing his stance on a relationship with Sakura is actually quite believable as far as you're concerned.



No, not really. Sasuke changes sides when he is manipulated. Obito and Itachi were both good manipulators and they had their proof to back up what they were saying. Naruto, on the other hand, was only speaking off of emotion's and his own desires. He never confronted Sasuke and spoke facts about why he should do this or do that. Itachi and Obito did, however. It's easy to influence people when you have good manipulation skills, which Naruto actually lacks. 

Yes, Naruto has this charismatic gift that touches people, but we wouldn't be having a story with Sasuke not falling for it, now would we? Also, the Raikage didn't fall for his TNJ, so no, not everyone falls for his "charms". 

If Sasuke was never attracted or interested in the girl, what makes you think he will start to do so now? If he doesn't like the girl, he doesn't like her. End of story. Also, we are nearing the end of the storyline, so why would Sasuke all of a sudden start showing these feelings and they has been absolutely ZERO development between them at all? Not even platonic development, really. 




> I'm sorry, but if they're not a big deal, if he has accepted he's not reciprocated, and has been concentrating on better things then why do you think he's the one who's going to be pandered to in the end, when it's the girls' love which is treated as a big deal and which is what they've been concentrating in?



To him, his feelings aren't the most important thing at the moment. I'm not saying that how I look at it. The only way for Naruto to place his feelings back on the front burner again would be for the person that he actually has those feelings for to reciprocate those feelings. And, no one said that the girls feelings were a big deal because that's not what's important right now. Sakura hasn't even mentioned feelings for Sasuke since the first part, and we all know that Hinata loves Naruto, but she's not desperately seeking him either. Yes, she wants to be by his side, hand-in-hand, and she got her wish, technically. Since then, their feelings haven't even been brought to the table. 



> You're advocating that the depth of the Hinata -> Naruto and Sakura -> Sasuke bonds are going to be dropped, so it will pander to Naruto's when his feelings are as good as resolved. Because that's how it's you portray them. Naruto doesn't think they're a big deal to pursue, he has accepted he isn't reciprocated, and he has found better things to do with his time.



Basically. This manga is named after him, remember? It's up to who he chooses to be his wife/girlfriend or whatever. Also, I didn't say that those bonds are going to be dropped. I'm not saying that at all. It would be logical for these characters to still love whoever they love, even if said person got into a relationship. Naruto's not obligated to return the feelings of anyone who loves him. If he doesn't love them, then he doesn't love them. He's not obligated to return Hinata's feelings just because she loves him and admires him for being the role model in her life. That's her own personal vendetta. What does matter is if he loves someone, and they love him back. That's what's important. Again, the storyline is centered around _him_. 



Jesus, people, stop trying to tack on a debate with me. If you see one person arguing my points, why would you also want to bud in and argue my points too? Someone is already advocating for your fandom. I'm only one person and I can't keep posting wall-after-wall of text on here for each and every person that debates with me. It's taking up too much space and time for my liking. If you see I'm debating with one person, please don't try to engage in a debate. I don't think that's fair. I'm only one person, and apparently the only NS fan here, so I don't want to debate *ALL* of you. It's frustrating. It's like I'm writing a paper for college and this is just a simple debate thread.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> It's not a romance, and as such, romance has had nothing important to do with the plot as of now. That being said, the small amounts of romance which we nitpick upon are the only things keeping this thread going. I think what needs to be remembered is this: Most shonen manga have the pairings set from the beginning as it has nothing to do with the main plot. Only the minor.
> That being said, it's still possible both ways, but to even SUGGEST Sakura is getting over Sasuke, but Naruto isn't getting over Sakura is folly at best. Naruto's attitude towards Sakura has matured and changed a LOT since part 1. He has kept a fair bit more distance from her flirting wise. This leads me to believe he's done trying to change her mind. He knows she loves Sasuke. He knows that for 3 years her opinion was UNWAVERING. I doubt that will change anytime soon.



I agree with the first bit. Most of the characters have their emotions on back burners anyway because this manga is shonen. 

On your second point, I have to point out that Naruto has shown no indication of moving on from Sakura. NONE. Sakura, however, has shown little indications of losing faith and trust in Sasuke, which can also open her up to the chance to actually move on to something better. Just because Naruto no longer flirts with her, it doesn't mean he has. 

If you haven't noticed by now, it's near impossible for Naruto to stop feeling the same way he feels about people and Sasuke is the perfect example of this. Naruto still thinks of Sasuke as a brother and friend after all of that mess he has done. Hell, Sasuke is an international criminal and Naruto _still_ thinks of him as a brother. 

Why would it be different for Sakura, who has done absolutely nothing as bad as Sasuke for Naruto to have his feelings change for her, but not Sasuke? That would be a contradiction to who he is and how he values his bonds and feelings for people.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

ch1p said:


> LOL.
> 
> Let's recap, Naruto's feelings for Sakura, they are not a big deal, he has accepted he isn't reciprocated and found better things to do. He "waved" the white flag. *However, with Naruto has pushed Kiba's feelings aside (according to you). Such, they are a big deal for Naruto and he's not accepting someone's 'contrary' opinion about it,* he's not finding better things to do and he's still pushing for this relentlessly.



It was hard for me to understand the bolded part because you worded that awkwardly, but I'm going to say that Naruto knows what he can and cannot have. I'm sure he has realized now that he can't get Sakura because she obviously loves someone else. Right? Right. In the romance subplot, there is an obstacle in the way of Naruto being with the girl he likes: Sasuke. As for the Hokage thing, there is no obstacle. All Naruto has to do is become stronger and prove that he is worthy of becoming Hokage material; simple. In my opinion, I think Naruto believes that it would be easier to accomplish gaining the title of Hokage over having his feelings reciprocated. That's probably how he views it, which is why he "waved his white flag on Sakura". That's why he is pushing to become Hokage so relentlessly because he believes it's more possible than getting Sakura to like/love him back. 



> Let's also recap, Sakura and Hinata's feelings for their boys are "powerful", but its Naruto's whose feelings have been recurrently portrayed as less powerful that it's going to pandered to.
> 
> You contradict yourself. For something like the Hokage position, then Naruto's "strenght of feelings" and "powerful outlook" will win against Kiba's "comic relief" feelings and power. However, in the love department, Sakura and Hinata with their "strenght of feelings" and "powerful outlook" are the ones getting owned against Naruto and his "comic relief" feelings and power. AHAHAHAH!



I already addressed that on top. Also, who said that Naruto's feelings are less powerful than the feelings he feel for Sakura? No one. Don't put words in my posts. Anyways, Naruto might have placed his feelings on the back burner, himself, but that doesn't mean they aren't strong. He's doing that because he has conceded to the notion that Sakura won't reciprocate his love and has opted to wish her happiness from afar. 

As for the Hokage/Kiba crap that you brought up, how did this . . . ? I don't even . . .  Anyway, whatever. It's obvious that Naruto desire to become Hokage is stronger than Kiba's. Hell, Kiba has only spoken of becoming Hokage ... what, one or two times? *That's* why it's taken as comedy because he has no match against Naruto right now. Also, what are you talking about, dude? No one said that Sakura/Hinata's feelings of "love" are owning anyone? Dude, I think you're going nuts or something. I can't really understand your text talk either. But, to each his own. You need to make your points clearer instead of beating around the bush with these ridiculous quips and skits or whatever you're doing. 




> At least Kiba hasn't quit and is still trying to get the Hokage position as serious as he is, which is more than I can say about Naruto, who hasn't pursued Sakura seriously since... a long time ago.



Honestly, the only reason I think Kiba wants to be the Hokage is because he wants to compete with Naruto. I don't think he sincerely wants to become Hokage for himself, but because he considers himself a rival to Naruto. He has only mentioned wanting to become Hokage twice, and those times were in the midst of someone else either declaring that they want to become Hokage or whatever . . . That's just my take on that. 

I already addressed why Naruto isn't pursuing Sakura seriously, so I'm not going to repeat myself, *AGAIN*. 




> Yes, Naruto is a mature gentleman. It's not like he's stating Sakura is his girlfriend when its a lie in very recent times.



Hey, no one said that Naruto was a mature, mature gentleman either. At the end of the day, he is still a teenager. Most teenagers I know might call a girl their girlfriend, but still accept that she likes someone else. That's a part of being human, buddy. As far as Naruto's feelings about Sakura, they are pretty selfless, yes. Don't take everything tit-for-tat. Naruto giving the PoaL was pretty the embodiment of how selfless he felt about things. He promised to bring Sasuke back.



> t's one or the other.
> 
> You said twice in this post that Naruto has accepted his feelings are not reciprocated. I'll quote them here: "He has accepted that his feelings were not reciprocated and he has been concentrating on bigger and better things ever since." and "Even if Sasuke came back, I doubt Naruto would try to come onto Sakura anyway because he knows she loves him. He accepted that back when he gave the PoaL. That's *one of the reasons* why I think he won't tell her that he likes her."
> 
> Decide, please.



Read the bolded part, please. I never said it was only reason. I said, "one of the reasons", which means it is one of other reasons. Man, reading comprehension is a mutha--




> Once again, NaruSaku only has the 'personal interpretation' excuse for a moment. There's no indication that this is the case besides your wishful thinking.
> 
> If you're admitting the 'girlfriend' comment is just a quip and not indicative of his feelings, I might recycle this old argument: 'Naruto hasn't mentioned his romantic interest in Sakura ever since Hinata confessed to him. That gives him plenty of time to have moved on.'



Hey, this is coming from the guy who supports two opposite pairings at  the same time that contradicts each other. That in no way makes sense. Anyway, I already addressed that above to you twice now. Like I said, Naruto likes Sakura like a girlfriend, so of course he's going to answer accordingly. Kishimoto doesn't have to throw the fact that Naruto loves Sakura in our faces every five chapters. That much should be obvious. It was pretty much thrown in our faces throughout the majority of part I, and like I said for the hundredth time on this thread, Naruto isn't going to pursue Sakura so harshly because he thinks his feelings aren't reciprocated, simple. How hard is that to understand? I do find it ironic that we are constantly shown Sakura's declining faith and trust in Sasuke, though. Yet, we are supposed to believe that Naruto's moving on and no indication of such a thing has been shown, but when Sakura does it, 'Oh she still luuuuuubssss him'    . It's hilarious.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

> Still doesn't change the fact that she was also acting because she was thinking about Naruto's feelings. She didn't have to lie to him. She didn't even have to make a confession. She could've simply said, "I want you go come back to Konoha with me". That's all. Sakura felt as if she was relying on Naruto too much, and she was causing him pain because of the life long burden that she had thought she placed on him. Then, there's the fact that Sai tells Sakura that Sasuke is garnering this sadness deep inside of Naruto. look here. She even states that she didn't want to make anymore mistakes and that she was the one who was causing Naruto the most pain.  look here. She even thinks that Naruto is a fool for loving someone like her, who obviously causes him so much pain.
> 
> You can't deny that the fact that Sasuke is causing Naruto this supposed pain is also one of the reasons why she decided to kill him. Yes, Sakura wants to kill Sasuke as well because she doesn't want to see him walk down darkness, but that's not the only reason either. In a way, she wants to kill Sasuke for both herself *and* Naruto.



There is the Naruto part and the Sasuke part. You're pretending the Naruto part is leaking towards the Sasuke part when it doesn't. Sai gave her reasons: she's prepared to kill him because she loves him. At no point of that is Naruto mentioned.

At most, there's the mention of Sakura being prepared for Naruto to hate her for killing Sasuke. I'll repeat: Sakura knows Naruto will hate her, yet she's determined to kill Sasuke. Naruto's feelings don't count more than her wish to help Sasuke. That shows no concern towards Naruto's feelings taking precedance over her wish to relieve Sasuke of his fate.



> First of all, no one has addressed Sakura's feelings as false except Naruto, himself.



Naruto was the only one who has ever addressed these romantic feelings, false or not. Nobody else has ever spoken of Sakura loving or not loving Naruto romantically. So yes, I can use him as a gauge to determine they're fake. There is no indication they exist besides that scene, and Naruto says she's lying.



> Throughout the storyline, Naruto has always believed that Sasuke was the one, so why would he so easily believe that she might be developing interest in him? That's because he won't believe such a thing so easily. If you are rejected enough, you will start to doubt that person when they actually begin to become interested. That's how it works.



Yes, Naruto has quit.



> Also, if she didn't want to date him, then why would she accept them when he would comically ask her out on one? Even back in part I, she asked him out on a date to talk to him. Sakura's feeligns for Naruto are up for interpretation and are ambiguous until there is verification from her.



The only time she accepted a date with Naruto was to talk about Sasuke. The second time they had been trying to get a lunch out of Kakashi and only changed to just the two of them because the teacher ran away. That goes in agreement with the rest of the times Naruto asked Sakura on a date and she refused. You are overreaching with that.



> As stated before, "He's close, but she still loves Sasuke as expected".



It doesn't mean what you think it does. The answer was given as someone questioned him if Sakura's feelings were changing. Kishimot said they were close (in general) but _that she loves Sasuke_.



> Yes, it is a flaw for her because it's causing her pain. Why should she love a guy that caused her all this pain? It's certainly not something she cherishes, since she had such a depressed expression on her face for loving such a guy. If she loves a guy like this, then that tells the reader that she doesn't have much self worth. Hanging onto unhealthy feelings like that will only bring unnecessary heartbreak.
> 
> Hell, I can say the same for Naruto. His unhealthy feelings for his friend is just that: unhealthy. Why is it that it seems like all of the other rookie nine have given up their bonds with Sasuke, except Naruto and Sakura? I can understand why Naruto hasn't because Sasuke is his first friend and his first bond. Sasuke is the one that understands him the most out of everyone. Sakura really has no reason to hold onto Sasuke like she does, yes, he is a former teammate but he was a horrible one. Sasuke was never really nice to her, so why hold onto something like that? It's not healthy for her.



This is your interpretation. Kishimoto doesn't care about any of that. People keep their bonds, regardless of everything. Hiruzen loved Orochimaru until the end, despite the fact that he had just killed a bunch of people by invading the Leaf and he had once caught him traipsing about people's innards. Does Hiruzen have low self-esteem as well? I've already told you this is irrelevant and there is nothing you can say that counters it.

Naruto is the hero. Hint: he's the one we should be praising as doing the right thing and being heroic. If NAruto keeps the bond with Sasuke, then that's supposed to be admirable, not otherwise.



> I don't understand how a person can be a NaruHina fan and A SasuSaku fan whilst opposed to NaruSaku. SasuSaku is the polar opposite of ANY pairing in that manga and it's a basically a contradiction to the others. Also, you're the one advocating that you want her to still be in love with this dude that treats her like crap and you don't want her to move on based upon your own preferences. You're making her out to be some lovesick teen who can't get over an old crush and move onto better things. You'd rather she be with a guy that has attempted to kill her twice rather than a dude that actually cares about her and her feelings.



SasuSaku is a story of acceptance, redemption, second chances, the spring after the winter. NaruHina is a story of acceptance, of growth because of another, of 'notice me senpai'. There's actually a lot of common things about the two of them.

NaruSaku on the other hand, has long since lost the only redeeming quality about it, which was acceptance. See, Sakura has already accepted Naruto is a wonderful guy, but she doesn't want to date him.



> First, okay? Just because Naruto thinks she's lying doesn't mean that it's true. Does that make everything that comes out of Naruto's mouth as a fact? No, especially when there was no verification that she was actually lying. In fact, the only thing that was pointed out as a lie was her feelings for Sasuke, not her feelings for Naruto. The only one who did that was Naruto, and Sakura even vehemently defended herself against that.



It's the truth when there's no indication otherwise. At no point is Naruto's evaluation of the situation said to be wrong. So yes, until hinted otherwise, Sakura was lying.



> Second, that love letter scene says otherwise. When the guy made the statement that she was in love with a good guy, she obviously made a face as if to say, "No, the guy I'm in love with isn't a good guy." She's definitely not overjoyed that she's in love with this guy, now is she? That is one of the first steps toward getting over someone. Denial and then acceptance. Those are the steps to getting over something and moving on. She has accepted the fact that Sasuke isn't a good guy, and that's progress, while before, she always thought Sasuke was flawless.



Yes, Sakura is aware Sasuke isn't a good guy in 540. I wonder what it did it for her. The first or second murder attempt? When he joined the organisation that just levelled her village, put her teacher in a coma and is threatening to destroy everything she holds dear? Perhaps the third or the fourth murder attempt? Face it, Sakura already knows Sasuke is not a good guy way before 540, that's why she decided she had to kill him so he wouldn't sink any lower  and it can't get any lower than that. 540 changes nothing, its there to remember the reader that yes, she loves him. Why? Because people like you keep asking if Sakura loves Sasuke!!!1!!, no matter how many times its stated on canon. The man can't help but he redundant.



> Third, happiness is happiness. There is no "romantic" happiness or "platonic" happiness. If you are content with a person, then that's who you need to be around.



That's what I said. Sakura may be happy with Naruto, but she doesn't need to date him for that to be the case. Which is this case. They are happy, because they're fweinds and teammates and all that crap. She doesn't want to date him. That is clear from her rejections.



> Apparently, you must have missed the whole chapter where Sai tells Sakura what the deal is about Naruto. She obviously feels guilty about placing that burden on him and she is aware of the fact that Sasuke is supposedly causing this pain, so I interpret as Sakura atoning for the lifelong burden she placed on him. She was even willing to have Naruto hate her but she was thinking of Naruto's as well as her own feelings. Sai even states this after the confession. look here. This whole time, she's been acting on her feelings as well as Naruto's.



I didn't miss anything. You're the one pretending Sakura went to kill Sasuke because of Naruto, when the only reason its given on canon that she did so was because she loved Sasuke.



> Agreed, and it wasn't until he actually started to act this way that she began seeing this side of Sasuke that she never saw before. When you want the person that you love to change, you keep having faith in them, of course. However, if that person doesn't show signs of trying to change or do anything productive, then I'm sure that person will eventually get tired of waiting and hoping. That faith will slowly dwindle over time, and that's what I think is currently happening with Sakura. She certainly doesn't think Sasuke's an awesome anymore, and that's the first step of getting over a unhealthy relationship.



This is dishonest. Sakura decided to kill Sasuke because she didn't think there was any hope. That was rock bottom, not now. She has hope for him now again.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

> No, not really. Sasuke changes sides when he is manipulated. Obito and Itachi were both good manipulators and they had their proof to back up what they were saying. Naruto, on the other hand, was only speaking off of emotion's and his own desires. He never confronted Sasuke and spoke facts about why he should do this or do that. Itachi and Obito did, however. It's easy to influence people when you have good manipulation skills, which Naruto actually lacks.



Like I said, I disagree Sasuke is manipulated. People say he is, but he trolled Orochimaru, he trolled Itachi and he trolled Obito. He does what he wants, not what other people tell him to. Orochimaru baited to the lair so he could take over his body, but Sasuke killed him when he had milked him for all he's worth. Itachi wanted him to become Leaf's hero, but Sasuke ran away as a criminal and then decided to destroy it. Obito wanted Sasuke for whatever plan, but Sasuke ran away and did his own thing, he's right now fighting against Obito's side and helped defeating him.



> Yes, Naruto has this charismatic gift that touches people, but we wouldn't be having a story with Sasuke not falling for it, now would we? Also, the Raikage didn't fall for his TNJ, so no, not everyone falls for his "charms".



Raikage did fall for his TnJ.



> If Sasuke was never attracted or interested in the girl, what makes you think he will start to do so now? If he doesn't like the girl, he doesn't like her. End of story. Also, we are nearing the end of the storyline, so why would Sasuke all of a sudden start showing these feelings and they has been absolutely ZERO development between them at all? Not even platonic development, really.



Sasuke has been interested in revenge all his life the most, but he's not going to stay like that forever. In fact, he has dropped it with 627. We don't know how Sasuke will react to a romantic relationship with Sakura if it doesn't conflict with his goals. This isn't very hard.

On the other hand, what's in it for Sakura to fall in love with Naruto, when she hasn't yet. What's her deal break? Your fandom has failed to propose a valid response. At most, you prance about with 'she already loves him but she's not aware of it' bulshit. I'm sorry, but there's no indication that's the case.



> To him, his feelings aren't the most important thing at the moment. I'm not saying that how I look at it. The only way for Naruto to place his feelings back on the front burner again would be for the person that he actually has those feelings for to reciprocate those feelings. And, no one said that the girls feelings were a big deal because that's not what's important right now.



Ah yah. Good old, I'm going to sit here and expect things to fall on my lap. Because that's Naruto's personality and the manga's theme. NOT.



> Sakura hasn't even mentioned feelings for Sasuke since the first part, and we all know that Hinata loves Naruto, but she's not desperately seeking him either. Yes, she wants to be by his side, hand-in-hand, and she got her wish, technically. Since then, their feelings haven't even been brought to the table.



Sakura hasn't mentioned feelings for Sasuke since first part? If you think she hasn't when 540 pretty much confirmed it, then you have no right saying Naruto is more serious business. He's the one who has never outright said anything since chapter 3.

Hinata said she wants to be by his side FOREVER. I can totally see her being there holding his hand while Sakura and Naruto are dating. NOT.



> Basically. This manga is named after him, remember? It's up to who he chooses to be his wife/girlfriend or whatever. Also, I didn't say that those bonds are going to be dropped. I'm not saying that at all. It would be logical for these characters to still love whoever they love, even if said person got into a relationship.



I was wondering when the 'Naruto is main character' was going to come in. Is that all? Because outside of that, you have no argument whatsoever.



> Naruto's not obligated to return the feelings of anyone who loves him. If he doesn't love them, then he doesn't love them. He's not obligated to return Hinata's feelings just because she loves him and admires him for being the role model in her life. That's her own personal vendetta. What does matter is if he loves someone, and they love him back. That's what's important. Again, the storyline is centered around him.



There's everything stopping Sakura from loving Naruto. However, there's nothing stopping from Naruto loving Hinata.



> Jesus, people, stop trying to tack on a debate with me. I'm only one person and I can't keep posting wall-after-wall of text on here. It's taking up too much space and time for my liking. If you see I'm debating with someone else, please don't try to engage in a debate. I'm only one person, and apparently the only NS fan here, so I don't want to debate ALL of you. It's frustrating. It's like I'm writing a paper for college and this is just a simple debate thread.



I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to post. You don't to answer, then don't. It's that simple. 



> It was hard for me to understand the bolded part because you worded that awkwardly, but I'm going to say that Naruto knows what he can and cannot have. I'm sure he has realized now that he can't get Sakura because she obviously loves someone else. Right? Right. In the romance subplot, there is an obstacle in the way of Naruto being with the girl he likes: Sasuke. As for the Hokage thing, there is no obstacle. All Naruto has to do is become stronger and prove that he is worthy of becoming Hokage material; simple. In my opinion, I think Naruto believes that it would be easier to accomplish gaining the title of Hokage over having his feelings reciprocated. That's probably how he views it, which is why he "waved his white flag on Sakura". That's why he is pushing to become Hokage so relentlessly because he believes it's more possible than getting Sakura to like/love him back.



There's no obstacle to Naruto being Hokage? LMAO. Naruto was a weakling and hated by all, so how could he be acknowledged like that? He trained hard, despite his limitations, and pushed himself beyond his boundaries. He also made people acknowledge him and love him, instead of hate him. No, Naruto worked hard, despite the obstacles, and he did it to overcome them.

If Sakura loving him romantically was all tht important to Naruto, he would have done some effort, but what he did was the bare minimum and never taken seriously by the plot. So of course I'm not going to take itseriously either. As won't any other reader which isn't NarSaku biased.



> I already addressed that on top. Also, who said that Naruto's feelings are less powerful than the feelings he feel for Sakura? No one. Don't put words in my posts. Anyways, Naruto might have placed his feelings on the back burner, himself, but that doesn't mean they aren't strong.



They're certainly weaker than his wish to be Hokage. So yes, I can say they're not that relevant to his character. Contrarily to Hinata, who practically revolves around Naruto, and Sakura who stated in chapter 3 that her dream was Sasuke. Sasuke got his dream of killing Itachi and is on the way to get the restoration of the Uchiha clan's reputation. Naruto will eventually become Kakashi. But Sakura won't get Sasuke because Naruto is the main character, so he'll hijack her dream?



> He's doing that because he has conceded to the notion that Sakura won't reciprocate his love and has opted to wish her happiness from afar.



That's what he'll always do then.



> As for the Hokage/Kiba crap that you brought up, how did this . . . ? I don't even . . . Anyway, whatever. It's obvious that Naruto desire to become Hokage is stronger than Kiba's. Hell, Kiba has only spoken of becoming Hokage ... what, one or two times? That's why it's taken as comedy because he has no match against Naruto right now.



Naruto's wish to be Hokage is stronger than Kiba, so of course he wiiiins. But Hinata's wish to get Naruto is stronger than Naruto's wish to get Sakura (since that one is zero as he has quit and has accepted he won't be reciprocated) but she's going to loooooose. Yeah, this is totally legit.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

> Honestly, the only reason I think Kiba wants to be the Hokage is because he wants to compete with Naruto. I don't think he sincerely wants to become Hokage for himself, but because he considers himself a rival to Naruto. He has only mentioned wanting to become Hokage twice, and those times were in the midst of someone else either declaring that they want to become Hokage or whatever . . . That's just my take on that.



What reason does Naruto have to be Hokage? He wants to be the king attention whore? How is that better than Kiba? Pay attention, I'm not saying this is bad or anything. I very much wanted him to get the Hokage position at one point just so he could lord it all over. I'm not the one making this out to be some kind of moral competition here.



> Hey, no one said that Naruto was a mature, mature gentleman either. At the end of the day, he is still a teenager. Most teenagers I know might call a girl their girlfriend, but still accept that she likes someone else. That's a part of being human, buddy. As far as Naruto's feelings about Sakura, they are pretty selfless, yes. Don't take everything tit-for-tat. Naruto giving the PoaL was pretty the embodiment of how selfless he felt about things. He promised to bring Sasuke back.



You said Naruto has matured. There's no maturity in what he did in 631.

The PoaLT has been long since nuked, so it doesn't matter anymore.



> Read the bolded part, please. I never said it was only reason. I said, "one of the reasons", which means it is one of other reasons. (...) I already addressed that above to you twice now. Like I said, Naruto likes Sakura like a girlfriend, so of course he's going to answer accordingly.



You don't understand the contradiction? You're saying Naruto won't tell Sakura his feelings. Yet he asks her out on dates and made the 631 comment. In fact, you said Naruto said what he said in 631 because he sees Sakura is his girlfriend, so he's definetly broadcasting his feelings. Sakura is right there to hear that 'Naruto likes Sakura like a girlfriend', but that's not telling her feelings? WHAT.



> Kishimoto doesn't have to throw the fact that Naruto loves Sakura in our faces every five chapters.



But he throws that Sakura loves Sasuke even more times than NAruto's feelings for Sakura, yet you don't fucking believe she loves him or that her feelings are serious business enough to be endgame.



> That much should be obvious. It was pretty much thrown in our faces throughout the majority of part I,



So was SasuSaku. 



> 'Oh she still luuuuuubssss him'.



That's because she does and there's no indication she'll stop doing so.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

> To fall out of love of someone, you only need to be baited by either the allure of change or to be baited by someone else. Considering Hinata has been baiting him and Naruto has reacted positivelly towards it, that falls under that quite easily.



Not completely true. Sure, you can fall in love with someone else WHILE you love someone, but that doesn't automatically mean you're going to just click and fall out of love with the person you've been loving since you were very young. That doesn't happen as easily as you might want to think. Really, I don't even think Naruto's the type to do that, unless Sakura did some that was so devastating, but even Sasuke has done devastating things and Naruto's feelings have remained intact. 




> You don't need to hate or be enemies to fall out of love with someone. You may have encountered stupid children that have ranted about how Sakura is a liaaar and equally retarded derivatives, so of course Naruto is gonna haaate her, but I'm one of those people. I think all of that is quite silly and has no weight whatsoever.



Exactly. Sasuke has done some horrible things, and Naruto's feelings haven't changed for him. So, why would his feelings for Sakura change and she has done nothing as bad as Sasuke? Doesn't make sense. 



> So file that away, because that's not why I think Naruto is gonna fall out of love for Sakura. Hinata has her worth that Naruto may come to appreciate, she's not his second choice just because the first one doesn't want him or hasn't lived to his expectations. Hinata doesn't need that at all. She stands on her own because she has good traits, not in the shadow of other's failures.



Like I said before, just because Naruto might fall for Hinata, it doesn't automatically mean he's going to fall out of love with Sakura with a click. 




> You are wrong. I've already explained above why. Neji's sacrifice referenced Hinata sacrificing for Naruto against Pain, which she did it because she loves him. It's tied with Hinata's romantic feelings for Naruto. On the other hand, NaruSaku has no such scenes. At no point are Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura tied with anything he does for her, unless it's about quitting his pursue.



Apparently, you're forgetting: this, this, this (these illustrate that it hurts Naruto to see Sakura like this and it's also one of the reasons why he would never betray Sasuke and it's because he promised Sakura he would bring him back and plus its the fact that he thinks of Sasuke as a comrade). Naruto is selfless because of his feelings for her. His romantic feelings are tied in because he wants her to be happy and that's *one of the reasons* why he wants to bring Sasuke back as well. 




> That's a lie. If it's a picture or a spoken speach, you're not going to use reading comprehension.  Keep your nuggets of... whatever you think you're doing to yourself, thanks.



Uh, no. Reading comprehension also deals with reading situations from the manga correctly, and not looking into something that doesn't fit the context. 



> I never said Sakura should be crying about this. I only said that Sakura is evaluating Sasuke's behaviour, because that's what happens. Sasuke is being mean to the tailed beasts and she's not happy about it. Why you and your fandom have to be trigger happy about it and claim she's re-evaluating romantic feelings without any indication that is the case is what is not understandable.



Again, no one is saying she's re-evaluating her romantic feelings. We're saying that it's obvious that she's losing trust and faith in him, and that's one of the steps to moving on from something. 




> You remember wrong.



Uh, no. That's Sakura poundcaking Naruto for using a perverted jutsu, not for coming onto her. Apparently, you remember wrong and you once again prove that your reading comprehension is off. 




> Sakura is angry with Naruto because he's doing something stupid and that includes his romantic advances. Whether she hits him while at it or not is actually quite irrelevant. The thing to take notice is that she's _angry_ because she doesn't like his behaviour. Sakura's anger in 631 is because she's lying but it's no stretch to say she's hitting him as well because he's making romantic advances. Sakura has reacted to Naruto's romantic advances with that same anger. It's a confirmed pattern.



If you remember correctly, she was actually looking for Naruto to compliment her in a romantic fashion. look here, and she can also be seen admiring his appearance. How that's not romantic, I don't know. She is even blushing, look here. So, I don't get where you think she's angry when he tries to advance romantically. Whenever he asks her on dates, she accepts with the idea that he's going to pay which is what a real couple does. So, yes, Sakura mostly hits Naruto when he is doing something stupid or says something that isn't true. It is a stretch to say she gets angry when he makes romantic advances, because if that were the case, she would hit him every time he asked her on a date. So, it's sort of invalid. Sakura doesn't even hit Naruto that often either. If you follow the anime, she hits him wayyy more than she hits him in the anime.

Are you really following the anime or manga? You know, most of that stuff is filler where she hits him all the time anyways.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

ch1p said:


> What reason does Naruto have to be Hokage? He wants to be the king attention whore? How is that better than Kiba? Pay attention, I'm not saying this is bad or anything. I very much wanted him to get the Hokage position at one point just so he could lord it all over. I'm not the one making this out to be some kind of moral competition here.



He wants to receive the acknowledgement that he never received as a child, that's why. Kiba was never an outcast and he was never a victim of being alone. Kiba had friends and family while Naruto was alone. How do you not know this? You're on a Naruto forum, but you don't know anything about the show other than pairing stuff? 

I just think Kiba is doing to just so that he won't feel left behind by Naruto. He has expressed to feel so several times, even at the end of the Pein Arc when he told Shino they he would catch up to Naruto. He did so again when he told Shino and Hinata that their team would not lose to team seven. To me, it looks like more of a competition for him than anything. 





> You said Naruto has matured. There's no maturity in what he did in 631.
> 
> The PoaLT has been long since nuked, so it doesn't matter anymore.



Yes, he has matured. No, there wasn't, but that's how he feels. He loves Sakura like he loves a girlfriend, and that's the truth. Yes, the PoaL doesn't matter anymore, but it was one of the reasons why Naruto was doing what he was doing anyway. It's nuked now because Sasuke's back. 




> You don't understand the contradiction? You're saying Naruto won't tell Sakura his feelings. Yet he asks her out on dates and made the 631 comment. In fact, you said Naruto said what he said in 631 because he sees Sakura is his girlfriend, so he's definetly broadcasting his feelings. Sakura is right there to hear that 'Naruto likes Sakura like a girlfriend', but that's not telling her feelings? WHAT.



Yes, he won't confess to her because he doesn't feel worthy. That's what I get from it. It's implied because he wasn't able to keep his promise to her and I'm also speculating that it's because he knows that Sakura doesn't feel that way about him. Besides, Sakura already knows that Naruto loves her, so why does that matter? Sai told her, remember? It's possible to show affection to someone you love, but not actually tell them. 




> But he throws that Sakura loves Sasuke even more times than NAruto's feelings for Sakura, yet you don't fucking believe she loves him or that her feelings are serious business enough to be endgame.



Now, now, don't get those panties in a bunch.  What are you talking about? He hasn't thrown that Sakura loves Sasuke around for over hundreds of chapters now? Sakura hasn't said it from her own mouth, so, yeah. Sakura's love for Sasuke wouldn't have to be thrown in our faces all of the time from other characters, because obviously it's not that strong if that's the case. 





> So was SasuSaku.



Yet, Sakura's feelings are the only ones that that keep being thrown around in our faces like they're expected to change sometime soon. I wonder why . . .




> That's because she does and there's no indication she'll stop doing so.




That's your interpretation, hon.


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## ch1p (Jan 12, 2014)

> Really, I don't even think Naruto's the type to do that, unless Sakura did some that was so devastating, but even Sasuke has done devastating things and Naruto's feelings have remained intact.
> 
> Exactly. Sasuke has done some horrible things, and Naruto's feelings haven't changed for him. So, why would his feelings for Sakura change and she has done nothing as bad as Sasuke? Doesn't make sense.



Naruto is a manga that doesn't abide to that view, the one where people have to do something terrible and people will cut bonds with them. Again I'll reference Hiruzen, who still loved Orochimaru after he saw him playing about with the innards of people he needed to protect. Even Orochimaru, as much as a monster he was portrayed _back then_, still loved Hiruzen enough to shed a few tears at the thought of killing him.

Nobody is saying Naruto is going to cut his bond with Sakura, if he falls out of love with her. Naruto shifting his bond type with Sakura is actually of no consequence whatsoever. He may cherish her as much as he did before, just not romantically. It does't make his feelings for her any less strong.



> Apparently, you're forgetting: this, this, this (these illustrate that it hurts Naruto to see Sakura like this and it's also one of the reasons why he would never betray Sasuke and it's because he promised Sakura he would bring him back and plus its the fact that he thinks of Sasuke as a comrade). Naruto is selfless because of his feelings for her. His romantic feelings are tied in because he wants her to be happy and that's one of the reasons why he wants to bring Sasuke back as well.



Of course Naruto wants Sakura to be happy and of course it hurts Naruto to see Sakura crying. That's because she's his friend and he cares about her. Sai got all angry out of Naruto 'suffering' due to Sasuke and Sakura, and he isn't in love with Naruto, or is he?



> Uh, no. Reading comprehension also deals with reading situations from the manga correctly, and not looking into something that doesn't fit the context.



That flew way over your head.  I meant that if you're looking at a drawing without things written on it, you reading comprehension isn't going to help you. Much like reading comprehension isn't going to help you if you're hearing about things instead of reading them. I was being flippant. Oh dear lord. 



> Uh, no. That's Sakura poundcaking Naruto for using a perverted jutsu, not for coming onto her.



That is the point, Naruto makes Sakura angry, for a multitude of reasons.  Sakura is angry when Naruto's being stupid and she's angry when he comes onto her, there are plenty of examples of both. The girlfriend comment the two of them rolled up in one, but you want it to be an example of Sakura only being angry because of the lie. You want to pretend Sakura being angry at Naruto coming onto her is not one of the reasons, when until now all of his romantic references are met with that sort of rejection.



> If you remember correctly, she was actually looking for Naruto to compliment her in a romantic fashion. look here, and she can also be seen admiring his appearance. How that's not romantic, I don't know. She is even blushing, look here. So, I don't get where you think she's angry when he tries to advance romantically.



Some girls are like that. Ino was also fishing for compliments from Neji and Sai, and she wasn't in love with them.



> Whenever he asks her on dates, she accepts with the idea that he's going to pay which is what a real couple does.



This is a lie. Every time Naruto has mentioned a date with Sakura, she has rejected him. The only time she didn't comes in the continuation of her getting a free meal out of Kakashi. She's not accepting him romantically.



> So, yes, Sakura mostly hits Naruto when he is doing something stupid or says something that isn't true. It is a stretch to say she gets angry when he makes romantic advances, because if that were the case, she would hit him every time he asked her on a date. So, it's sort of invalid. Sakura doesn't even hit Naruto that often either. If you follow the anime, she hits him wayyy more than she hits him in the anime.



Sakura's anger has always been what Naruto encounters when he makes date requests. I'm sorry, but just because she doesn't hit him in all of them doesn't mean anything.



> Are you really following the anime or manga? You know, most of that stuff is filler where she hits him all the time anyways.



I don't watch the anime.



> He wants to receive the acknowledgement that he never received as a child, that's why. Kiba was never an outcast and he was never a victim of being alone. Kiba had friends and family while Naruto was alone.



You're missing the point here.

Naruto wants acknowledgement and the Hokage position so bad, he worked for it as hard as he could. To the point of making an impassionate speech on the Chunin Exams on how he'd become Hokage no matter what happened. On the other hand, Naruto likes Sakura romantically, but he has tried the bare minimum to woo her (if that) and in your own words, has already accepted that he won't be reciprocated. The two "wishes" from Naruto are not treated the same at all.

On the other hand, you have Hinata going at Naruto like he goes at the Hokage / Acknowledgement shtick. Yet you don't accept Hinata's determination won't get anywhere, but Naruto's passiveness regarding Sakura will. It's uncanny.



> I just think Kiba is doing to just so that he won't feel left behind by Naruto. He has expressed to feel so several times, even at the end of the Pein Arc when he told Shino they he would catch up to Naruto. He did so again when he told Shino and Hinata that their team would not lose to team seven. To me, it looks like more of a competition for him than anything.



That's why I said Kiba's wish to become Hokage is at least taken seriously, more than Naruto getting Sakura. At least Kiba isn't accepting that he won't get it. No, he's working for it. While Naruto is sitting there, not even hoping she'll fall on his lap.

I'm sorry, but this is a story of people working for what they want. If Naruto doesn't work for Sakura, then he'll never get her. Hinata works for Naruto, she'll get him, without a doubt.



> Yes, he has matured. No, there wasn't, but that's how he feels.



Naruto has matured, but not quite. Just enough to fit whatever bulshit of the day. 



> Naruto loves Sakura like he loves a girlfriend, and that's the truth.



Or he's fucking around, considering that he said in 632.



> Yes, the PoaL doesn't matter anymore, but it was one of the reasons why Naruto was doing what he was doing anyway. It's nuked now because Sasuke's back.



Sasuke, the magnificent obstacle. 



> Yes, he won't confess to her because he doesn't feel worthy.  That's what I get from it. It's implied because he wasn't able to keep his promise to her and I'm also speculating that it's because he knows that Sakura doesn't feel that way about him. Besides, Sakura already knows that Naruto loves her, so why does that matter? Sai told her, remember? It's possible to show affection to someone you love, but not actually tell them.



Love isn't about being worthy. It's good that Naruto won't get Sakura because of this. He needs to be with someone that loves him, not that he thinks deserves him.

Besides, the contradiction wasn't that. The contradiction was that you were saying Naruto accepts Sakura is never going to reciprocate him and yet you also think he sees her as is girlfriend in 631. It's either one or the other. He either thinks he has no chance, or he thinks he has one.



> He hasn't thrown that Sakura loves Sasuke around for over hundreds of chapters now?



Naruto doesn't need to comment on it, Sakura does. She did so, less than a day ago, in manga timeline.



> Sakura hasn't said it from her own mouth, so, yeah.



Neither has Naruto since chapter 3 (and it was all in thoughts too. I don't see you say he has no chance because he never stated them out loud.



> Sakura's love for Sasuke wouldn't have to be thrown in our faces all of the time from other characters, because obviously it's not that strong if that's the case.



That's some screwed up logics. It implies Naruto's constant reminders that he's going to be Hokage is because he doesn't feel strongly on the subject. 



> Yet, Sakura's feelings are the only ones that that keep being thrown around in our faces like they're expected to change sometime soon. I wonder why . . .



Sakura's feelings are being thrown out in our faces yes. Like they're expected to change anytime soon is your own wishful thinking.



> That's your interpretation.



It's not interpretation. It's right there, in the manga.


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## Kathutet (Jan 12, 2014)

Hey, unrustle those jimmies. If you're going to be throwing more snark and bait than anything else in your posts, it's time to leave this alone for a while.


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## Naiki (Jan 12, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> > Let's hope it is a good year for debates--and for whatever pairings Kishi has in the works!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jan 13, 2014)

Even if Sakura didn't have some romantic feelings for Naruto and we assume that her feelings for Sasuke trump whatever she's feeling (however little) for Naruto, you'd still have to provide a reason of why IN THE CONTEXT OF NARUTO'S CHARACTER all of a sudden Naruto would drop his feelings for Sakura in the span of Part 2 (when he's had three years to think about it, considering his promise to her) for Hinata whom he's barely knows. Just cause he held her hand and she smacked him a light bulb just clicked in his head and he said "You know what? Fuck this girl that I've known and loved for years, lets get down with Hinata!!! Woo!"

How does that make any logical sort of sense? _Even taking Sakura out of the equation_, it has no basis.

This manga's love subplot primarily involves Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura. That's it. Period. Hinata is more or less a side character, when it comes down to it.


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## ch1p (Jan 13, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Even if Sakura didn't have some romantic feelings for Naruto and we assume that her feelings for Sasuke trump whatever she's feeling (however little) for Naruto



Sakura loves both Naruto and Sasuke, she just doesn't love them the same way. She loves Naruto platonically and Sasuke romantically.



> you'd still have to provide a reason of why IN THE CONTEXT OF NARUTO'S CHARACTER  all of a sudden Naruto would drop his feelings for Sakura in the span of Part 2



Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are not important to him or his character. To some (including Lady of Hubris), he has even resigned himself to never getting it, and is now waiting for her to fall on his lap. It doesn't break Naruto's character to shift the type of relationship he has with Sakura.

On the other hand, Sakura has loved Sasuke for over 660 chapters. When Kakashi asked team 7 about their dreams, Naruto said 'I want to be Hokage', Sasuke said 'I want to kill my brother and restore the Uchiha' and Sakura said 'Sasuke'. What's more, Sakura is the only person Sasuke ever conected romantically. Hinata has loved Naruto for 600 chapters as well and while that's weak from the author, her character revolves mostly around Naruto. Sasuke to Sakura, Naruto to Hinata, they are important to their characters in the romantic context.



> (when he's had three years to think about it, considering his promise to her) for Hinata whom he's barely knows. Just cause he held her hand and she smacked him a light bulb just clicked in his head and he said "You know what? Fuck this girl that I've known and loved for years, lets get down with Hinata!!! Woo!" How does that make any logical sort of sense? _Even taking Sakura out of the equation_, it has no basis.



You don't fall out of love of people by thinking about it nor because they held hands.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 13, 2014)

Can I just point out that the handhold got it's own cover, yet the NS hug did not? Oh. Ok.


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## sakuraboobs (Jan 13, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Can I just point out that the handhold got it's own cover, yet the NS hug did not? Oh. Ok.



Can I also just point out that the NS hug wasn't even romantic while the handhold had romantic connections and it was Naruto the one holding hands with Hinata. 



then:



and as if it's not enough:


*Spoiler*: __ 









He even squeeze her hand. 

Yep It was just a handhold in a Jump Cover. Nothing much, believe it!


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Even if Sakura didn't have some romantic feelings for Naruto and we assume that her feelings for Sasuke trump whatever she's feeling (however little) for Naruto, you'd still have to provide a reason of why IN THE CONTEXT OF NARUTO'S CHARACTER (not just bullshit wishful thinking) all of a sudden Naruto would drop his feelings for Sakura in the span of Part 2 (when he's had three years to think about it, considering his promise to her) for Hinata whom he's barely knows. Just cause he held her hand and she smacked him a light bulb just clicked in his head and he said "You know what? Fuck this girl that I've known and loved for years, lets get down with Hinata!!! Woo!"
> 
> How does that make any logical sort of sense? _Even taking Sakura out of the equation_, it has no basis.
> 
> This manga's love subplot primarily involves Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura. That's it. Period. Hinata is more or less a side bitch, when it comes down to it.




Thank you! I could kiss you right now! That's what people don't understand. How can a hand-hold that was severely taken out of context substitute 3+ years of feelings that Naruto has had for Sakura? Naruto doesn't even know Hinata like he knows Sakura, so why would he so quickly drop his feelings for this girl that he has known for a long time for this other girl that barely talked to in the academy and even throughout part II? Hell, even when the girl confessed her feelings to him, it took hundreds of chapters for him to even address it again. Isn't that something? Also, said girl had been in his presence SINCE the confession, and he *still* didn't bring it up until the war. Even then, he _never_ addressed her love confession itself, but the bravery of what she did.

What does that tell you? 

They're not even on the same team, so where is the development people? There is no mutual development! Atleast Naruto and Sakura have a chance because they both actually have mutual development, Naruto and Hinata have none. If Naruto and Sakura choose to be in a relationship, then can easily because of their _mutual development_. 

In fact, Naruto can relate to Sakura more than he can relate to Hinata. Naruto's connection to Hinata ended when he gained recognition from the village by becoming a hero and he was no longer alone. That's the only thing that Naruto and Hinata could relate on. On the other hand, Naruto and Sakura both feel the same things in regards to bonds. friendship, and having faith that some day they can all be happy with Sasuke as team seven again. That connection had been ongoing since part I and it's still going on right now. There's also the understanding of unrequited love between Narusaku because Naruto understands how it feels to not have your love reciprocated in regards to Saku -> Sasu. Don't believe me? Refer to my post with SoulFire and I explain why. 

What does Naruto have in common with Hinata at this moment? Nothing. All of that has ended, and that was what was needed for Hinata's character development. The only reason Kishimoto probably had Hinata admire and be in love with Naruto in the first place was because she needed to improve herself and Naruto had everything that she was lacking.

In my opinion, Hinata isn't really even a threat to the development that Naruto and Sakura have. Let me also add that just because their hand-holding gesture was placed on the cover, it doesn't mean anything. When Kishimoto places something on the cover, that means that it's going to be the basis of what the chapter is about.

Not that it's "canon" or that it's an 'oh so romantic mommmeeeent', no. If that were the case, then many characters would've hooked up a long time ago e.g. Sasuke andRaikage. I mean, their fight was on the front cover, right? Even then, that hand hold has no romantic tone, at all. Neither one of them look like their swooning or actually content. There is no smile, anything. Yet, this is taken as something romantic? Also, look in the background. Like I said, the background and context of this situation doesn't allow it to be romantic, which further validates my point of it being based solely on camaraderie.


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## Rinoa (Jan 13, 2014)

Too many fandoms mentions in the posts.
Please discuss the arguments without pointing fingers and less pleasant words to "mine" " your " the " neighbor " fandom or towards the other debater.

This thread is to discuss the manga events in relation to the pairings, the arguments ... leaving aside fandoms, not generalizing or labeling.

Are you, your opponent the manga events and arguments that each weaves here.

Refrain mentions of fandoms/fans, excessive sarcasm and irony and less kind words.
Consider a general warning since are already being posted many warnings in this thread in a few days and almost all know better by now.
Do not put yourself in unnecessary troubles. Not worth it.


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## PAWS (Jan 13, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Can I just point out that the handhold got it's own cover, yet the NS hug did not? Oh. Ok.





sasusakucannon said:


> Can I also just point out that the NS hug wasn't even romantic while the handhold had romantic connections and it was Naruto the one holding hands with Hinata.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can I point out that there were no romantic connections unless you call Hinata saying Naruto's hand is big as a romantic connection. Neji died, neji dying was a really big moment for Naruto and Hinata helps him get over it and fight. That is why they are on the cover, with Neji there. DO you really think Hinata would have helped him or been there had anyone else died? No she would not.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

I want to also point out there when you look at that cover, both Naruto and HInata are looking at Neji in the background. How is that a romantic connection? Romance was not the center of this scene. It was because of Neji's death that Naruto broke down and was willing to give up, but Hinata snapped him out of it. He was willing to give in, but Hinata reminded him that he had everyone relying on him and willing to die for him. Neji even says so as he is lying there dying. Then, Naruto grabs her hand in gratitude for snapping him out of it, and also for being there by his side to fight. It's just that. It doesn't illustrate that he is falling in love with her, not even one bit.  It illustrates that he is grateful for her and what she is willing to do for him, just like his parents, Jiraiya, and even the Hokage (who which he thought about as he grabbed her hand). It wasn't out of romantic love. Then, after he grabs her hand from it's place on his face, he does the chakra transfer. 

On Hinata's part, yes, she got what she wanted. Chapters before, she stated that she wanted to be by Naruto's side to fight and hold hands with him. That is her desire because she 1) loves him 2) wants to protect him and would willing die for him. She has done that already, but I don't really take the 'forever' part of her statement literally. Unless, she means she wants to fight by his side in the midst of her cousin's death forever . . . 

The theme of everything was camaraderie, standing together in the hour of despair, not love. Romance doesn't make sense in this context, I'm sorry. I will say that one must look at the entire picture to fully understand what the message is.

EDIT: Let me also point out that Hinata speaks about the camaraderie that they each have with each other because of how everyone's lives are connected. supports , that goes for Hinata and how she feels about Naruto as well. She is willing to give her life for him because they are comrades (plus because she loves him but that wasn't a part of the message here). But, yeah, Neji tells Naruto that his life is not his own anymore and Naruto grabs Hinata's hand in gratitude and realization with a new resolve after thinking about flashing back to Killer bee whilst thinking of all the people that are willing to give their lives for him, which again goes back to the theme of 'his life is not his own anymore'.  He then tells Hinata '_thank you_' out of gratitude for her making him realize this, as well as Neji, whilst still thinking about how his life isn't his anymore. supports   

This had nothing to do with romance, but more of camaraderie.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

First of all i will begin by saying that Naruto is a manga that doesn't have romance as its main plot so the manga will no give us much romantic development, in this case we shouldn't be surprised if the XYZ pairing just happens by the end of it  without so expected " proper romance" , the mangaka can easily just throw couple panels that could easily show us some evidence that could've happen between the pairing.
After clearing this aside lets begin.



LadyofHubris said:


> Thank you! I could kiss you right now! That's what people don't understand. How can a hand-hold that was severely taken out of context substitute 3+ years of feelings that Naruto has had for Sakura? Naruto doesn't even know Hinata like he knows Sakura, so why would he so quickly drop his feelings for this girl that he has known for a long time for this other girl that barely talked to in the academy and even throughout part II? Hell, even when the girl confessed her feelings to him, it took hundreds of chapters for him to even address it again. Isn't that something? Also, said girl had been in his presence SINCE the confession, and he *still* didn't bring it up until the war. Even then, he _never_ addressed her love confession itself, but the bravery of what she did.


You mean how can someone that got a romantic crush for someone, for years,  suddenly can move  on and fall in love with someone else?
First of all we are not sure about how are Naruto's feelings towards her for a long period of time,seeing how persistent Sakura's feelings for Sasuke could easily  make him change his romantic view on Sakura, after-all he is a guy that would sacrifice his own happiness for his friends  and if Sasuke accepts Sakuras feeling he will accept it. Im pretty sure Naruto already thought about it, the fake confession by Sakura and his reaction somewhat prove this , this point could be what made Naruto to finally move on or just accept that he may not end with her, he is not a little boy anymore that naively pounded his legs on the ground demanding to get what he wanted anymore.

As for Hinata,i do not understand why people claim that she and Naruto are strangers.
They live in the same village, they go to missions together  and especially when they both share the same ideals and understand each quite well . There is also affection between these too ( romantic or not it doesn't matter)  , they care about each other and plenty of times in manga it hints out that after team 7 Hinata is probably the closest person at his age that he interacts/likes.
As the series progress we have seen this more and more frequently , it is a fact that Naruto knows and understands more about Hinata, it is totally different that part 1 when he had no idea and considered he dark and unknown. After Neji's event  the words he spoke to her are pretty much  and indication that they are close, it doesn't matter if its romantically or not since that beyond the point, what it shows that they got a development together, they are closes, which could easily be taken as romantic affection between them or the likelihood of it grows.





> What does that tell you?


It tells me that are many different ways to love someone. There is nowhere to say that in order for two person to fall in love with eachother they need to interact   a lot with eachother or even know a lot about them, with that logic all childhood friends would be married and the concept of blind love would never work.
What affects somebody falling in love depends on many factors which are different for each individual.







> They're not even on the same team, so where is the development people? There is no mutual development! Atleast Naruto and Sakura have a chance because they both actually have mutual development, Naruto and Hinata have none. If Naruto and Sakura choose to be in a relationship, then can easily because of their _mutual development_.


They do not need to be in the same team for the to have mutual development , heck not even in the same village as we seen plenty  shinobi got married with different people from other villages or clans.
There is mutual development  with almost anyone in the village with Naruto. Mutual development is not only about romance, its about everything they do together, they went to same school, they fought together, they eat together,talk and share their emotions ,their rivalry, everything.
They do not need to spend lots of time together in order to have mutual development, Sasuke and Naruto relationship is the prime example of it.
I would love for you to point which exactly mutual romantic development Naruto and Sakura share more than Naruto and Hinata one ,taking into accord what i said earlier about the requirements for two people to be together.
I will give you the answer, there is none,since there is no evidence on Sakura mutually accepting Narutos feelings, not while she is thinking about Sasuke.





> In fact, Naruto can relate to Sakura more than he can relate to Hinata. Naruto's connection to Hinata ended when he gained recognition from the village by becoming a hero and he was no longer alone. That's the only thing that Naruto and Hinata could relate on. On the other hand, Naruto and Sakura both feel the same things in regards to bonds. friendship, and having faith that some day they can all be happy with Sasuke as team seven again. That connection had been ongoing since part I and it's still going on right now. There's also the understanding of unrequited love between Narusaku because Naruto understands how it feels to not have your love reciprocated in regards to Saku -> Sasu. Don't believe me? Refer to my post with SoulFire and I explain why.
> What does Naruto have in common with Hinata at this moment? Nothing. All  of that has ended, and that was what was needed for Hinata's character  development. The only reason Kishimoto probably had Hinata admire and be  in love with Naruto in the first place was because she needed to  improve herself and Naruto had everything that she was lacking.


You would be surprised to learn that in fact both Hinata and Naruto have more in common and understand each other better as you make it sound. They share the same nindo,they both want to want to be accepted by the others and they share both tragic past.Remember when everyone was making fun of Naruto as a child Hinata was the only one that could understand him at some extend ( she was still a child afterall )and that it is shown in her confession. 
Hinatas action towards Naruto and how Sakura questions them .are showing that she doesn't know Naruto that well, her confession even more proves that point as she got no clue ( apparently) that Naruto is/was in love with her.
You're confusing their team and friendship bonds with love but you never actually questioned on what would happen if Sasuke wasn't in the middle of team 7 , keeping them together ? Do not forget Sakuras main interest with team 7 is in fact Sasuke, just this time she doesn't dislike Naruto she accepts him for what he is and trust him as friend/partner team member. Does this mean this acceptance is translated as love? No, why  ? Because acceptance is a part of growing up together ,understand eachother better and become more intimate and interested. Naruto and Sakura could still remain very good friends even if they dont end up together, same applies to Hinata and everyone else.
Naruto bonds with everyone not just team 7.






> In my opinion, Hinata isn't really even a threat to the development that Naruto and Sakura have. Let me also add that just because their hand-holding gesture was placed on the cover, it doesn't mean anything. When Kishimoto places something on the cover, that means that it's going to be the basis of what the chapter is about.
> 
> Not that it's "canon" or that it's an 'oh so romantic mommmeeeent', no. If that were the case, then many characters would've hooked up a long time ago e.g. Sasuke andRaikage. I mean, their fight was on the front cover, right? Even then, that hand hold has no romantic tone, at all. Neither one of them look like their swooning or actually content. There is no smile, anything. Yet, this is taken as something romantic? Also, look in the background. Like I said, the background and context of this situation doesn't allow it to be romantic, which further validates my point of it being based solely on camaraderie.


Remember how i wrote about Naruto not being romance focused manga and that manga could/will hint us in couple of ways about it ?
Well lets begin to say that comparing Naruto and Hinata which have a lot of development with Raigake and Sasuke which didnt even know eachother faces before they fought its wrong.
What hints the handholding as romantic is the way its done and with the person it is done.Naruto pretty much admits that Hinata understand him the best and thanks  her for being there for him when he needed her.This acceptance  of her is what  hints the romance, plus her strong confidence before the fight combine eachother perfectly.
Does this means that Naruto is finally madly in love with her and is ready to cross the line ? No, but for sure it shows that their relationship grows deeper and more intimate as the time passes.Their relationship is not about anyone else involved, its about them  and perfectly understand and complete eachother.


Saying all the above i hope it stops  people being so surprised as i explained  how and why  Naruto and Hinata could have a romantic relationship , you may disagree and not like but you cannot deny  that it is not illogical or absurd as many make it to be.


I just wonder what will happen if Naruto  ends with someone else or nobody,how would people react to it but thats another discussion for another time.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> First of all i will begin by saying that Naruto is a manga that doesn't have romance as its main plot so the manga will no give us much romantic development, in this case we shouldn't be surprised if the XYZ pairing just happens by the end of it  without so expected " proper romance" , the mangaka can easily just throw couple panels that could easily show us some evidence that could've happen between the pairing.
> After clearing this aside lets begin.




Yes, because Naruto is a shonen manga. That's why I don't understand the argument that Naruto hasn't spoken about romantic feelings for Sakura in quite a while. That's not a valid argument because this manga isn't centered around such a thing and Kishimoto wouldn't have his main character running around like a lovesick puppy. 

Just because it's not written into every other chapter that Naruto loves Sakura, it doesn't mean that it's not so. 




> You mean how can someone that got a romantic crush for someone, for years,  suddenly can move  on and fall in love with someone else?
> First of all we are not sure about how are Naruto's feelings towards her for a long period of time,seeing how persistent Sakura's feelings for Sasuke could easily  make him change his romantic view on Sakura, after-all he is a guy that would sacrifice his own happiness for his friends  and if Sasuke accepts Sakuras feeling he will accept it. Im pretty sure Naruto already thought about it, the fake confession by Sakura and his reaction somewhat prove this , this point could be what made Naruto to finally move on or just accept that he may not end with her, he is not a little boy anymore that naively pounded his legs on the ground demanding to get what he wanted anymore.




That's the point that I'm trying to make. Naruto has not shown any romantic inclination towards Hinata, ever. I explained why the hand incident can't be seen as romantic above because the context doesn't allow it to be so. In my opinion, the hand incident was really the _only_ mutual development that they had since the Chuunin exams. 

If Naruto didn't feel the same, I'm sure he wouldn't have told his father that Sakura was his girlfriend. He probably would have said something like, "No, no, I don't like her like that", but he didn't. In my opinion, Naruto doesn't show his love like that because he has accepted that Sakura loves Sasuke a long time ago. Does that mean that he doesn't love her? It doesn't, because he would have stopped loving her a long time ago if that were the case. Heck, he would've stopped loving her when he gave the PoaL. 

Actually, Naruto's initial reaction to the confession confirms that he still loves her because he appeared to be shocked/somewhat happy when she first said she loved him. If I'm mistaken, I believe there was a blush on his face; I'll have to go back and look. 

You're right though. Naruto has matured, in regards to his feelings for Sakura, he has matured. Hell, you can tell that he had matured when it came to love as he was giving the PoaL. He had promised Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back to her because he knew that she loved him, despite his own feelings. That's maturity in my book. 

Naruto's not the type of dude to chase anyone, and Sakura's case proves that, but does that mean he doesn't love the person still? No. 



> As for Hinata,i do not understand why people claim that she and Naruto are strangers.
> They live in the same village, they go to missions together  and especially when they both share the same ideals and understand each quite well . There is also affection between these too ( romantic or not it doesn't matter)  , they care about each other and plenty of times in manga it hints out that after team 7 Hinata is probably the closest person at his age that he interacts/likes.
> As the series progress we have seen this more and more frequently , it is a fact that Naruto knows and understands more about Hinata, it is totally different that part 1 when he had no idea and considered he dark and unknown. After Neji's event  the words he spoke to her are pretty much  and indication that they are close, it doesn't matter if its romantically or not since that beyond the point, what it shows that they got a development together, they are closes, which could easily be taken as romantic affection between them or the likelihood of it grows.




No, they are not strangers, but they don't know each other that well. Naruto and Hinata don't go on missions that often, unless you count filler. I also explained above how Naruto and Hinata have gone past that understanding each other stage because Naruto is no longer in solitude and he has gained the acknowledgement that he has been striving for all of this time. All of these things are what Hinata can relate to Naruto about, but he has moved past that already. He has already gained the acknowledgement of the village and he has friends all around him now. I don't know what Hinata's situation is with her father, but she is still at the place that she was in part I in regards to some of the issues. Has she gained the acknowledgement and respect of her clan? 

That is unknown. 

Also, please show me panels where it states that Hinata is the closest person to him outside of team seven. I thought that Jiraiya was that? 

What Naruto said to Hinata after the hand incident was an indication that they are *close comrades*. I also explained that above too. The relationship is open to romantic development, yes, but Naruto needs to starts showing indication that he is developing romantic feelings for her. 





> It tells me that are many different ways to love someone. There is nowhere to say that in order for two person to fall in love with eachother they need to interact   a lot with eachother or even know a lot about them, with that logic all childhood friends would be married and the concept of blind love would never work.
> What affects somebody falling in love depends on many factors which are different for each individual.




Yes, there are. You can love someone like a comrade, a sister, a brother, a lover, or anything. Most of the time, it's best to know a person that you love. What would happen if you fell in love with someone who you secretly didn't know was abusive? It's best to know that person so that it would be up to you whether or not you would want to go down that romantic road with them or not. 

That's why people go on dates, so that they can get to know the people they are interested in. People need to gain that mutual development in order to work toward something, whether it be platonic or not. 




> They do not need to be in the same team for the to have mutual development , heck not even in the same village as we seen plenty  shinobi got married with different people from other villages or clans.
> There is mutual development  with almost anyone in the village with Naruto. Mutual development is not only about romance, its about everything they do together, they went to same school, they fought together, they eat together,talk and share their emotions ,their rivalry, everything.
> They do not need to spend lots of time together in order to have mutual development, Sasuke and Naruto relationship is the prime example of it.
> I would love for you to point which exactly mutual romantic development Naruto and Sakura share more than Naruto and Hinata one ,taking into accord what i said earlier about the requirements for two people to be together.
> I will give you the answer, there is none,since there is no evidence on Sakura mutually accepting Narutos feelings, not while she is thinking about Sasuke.




That's the point. There has been little evidence that Naruto and Hinata _ever_ hung out. They have never been shown eating together, talking together, sharing their emotions, or anything. The only thing we know is that Hinata had been watching Naruto in the shadows as he trained. I could see if she actually went out there and talked to him, but she never did. 

That is what's required for two people to form a relationship. You can't just form a relationship out of thin air when you have never interacted with that person like that before. 

Well, according to the manga, one of the reasons why Sakura came and confronted Naruto was because she was thinking about his feelings. She didn't want to tell Naruto the truth about Sasuke because she was thinking about how much it would hurt him. Sakura cares about Naruto and you can't deny that fact.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

> You would be surprised to learn that in fact both Hinata and Naruto have more in common and understand each other better as you make it sound. They share the same nindo,they both want to want to be accepted by the others and they share both tragic past.Remember when everyone was making fun of Naruto as a child Hinata was the only one that could understand him at some extend ( she was still a child afterall )and that it is shown in her confession.
> Hinatas action towards Naruto and how Sakura questions them .are showing that she doesn't know Naruto that well, her confession even more proves that point as she got no clue ( apparently) that Naruto is/was in love with her.
> You're confusing their team and friendship bonds with love but you never actually questioned on what would happen if Sasuke wasn't in the middle of team 7 , keeping them together ? Do not forget Sakuras main interest with team 7 is in fact Sasuke, just this time she doesn't dislike Naruto she accepts him for what he is and trust him as friend/partner team member. Does this mean this acceptance is translated as love? No, why  ? Because acceptance is a part of growing up together ,understand eachother better and become more intimate and interested. Naruto and Sakura could still remain very good friends even if they dont end up together, same applies to Hinata and everyone else.
> Naruto bonds with everyone not just team 7.




That's my point. Naruto and Sakura share the same nindo, but pretty much everything else, Naruto has gotten over. He has gotten over his lonely and tragic past because he now has friends to fill in that void, Naruto has already been accepted by everyone. Also, I think you're referring to the episode, which was filled with filler. You can't go by that episode saying that Hinata was the only one that was willing to reach out to Naruto, because it wasn't in the manga. The only thing we know is that Hinata would only watch Naruto, but she would never approach him, much like how most of the rookie nine did. 



> Remember how i wrote about Naruto not being romance focused manga and that manga could/will hint us in couple of ways about it ?
> Well lets begin to say that comparing Naruto and Hinata which have a lot of development with Raigake and Sasuke which didnt even know eachother faces before they fought its wrong.
> What hints the handholding as romantic is the way its done and with the person it is done.Naruto pretty much admits that Hinata understand him the best and thanks  her for being there for him when he needed her.This acceptance  of her is what  hints the romance, plus her strong confidence before the fight combine eachother perfectly.
> Does this means that Naruto is finally madly in love with her and is ready to cross the line ? No, but for sure it shows that their relationship grows deeper and more intimate as the time passes.Their relationship is not about anyone else involved, its about them  and perfectly understand and complete eachother.




I explained why the hand incident can't be seen as romantic above. Naruto never said that Hinata understands him the best either. He told her thank you and also thanked Neji for realizing that his life wasn't his own anymore. Nowhere did it state that Hinata understands him the best. 




> Saying all the above i hope it stops  people being so surprised as i explained  how and why  Naruto and Hinata could have a romantic relationship , you may disagree and not like but you cannot deny  that it is not illogical or absurd as many make it to be.
> 
> I just wonder what will happen if Naruto  ends with someone else or nobody,how would people react to it but thats another discussion for another time.





I don't see them becoming a romantic couple anytime soon. Naruto has not shown any indication of feeling that way.

If they do become a couple, hey, it is what it is.  Hinata's not a bad person, and actually, I like her.


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## Njaa (Jan 13, 2014)

I think some context is in order.

*Hinatas confession*

*Spoiler*: __ 







As you can see her desire to walk with him and be with him stems from romantic desire.

*Next up*

*Spoiler*: __ 






Here she is promising to be with him after the war ends.

*Now during the war we get the handhold.*
Where Naruto thanks her for being by his side. 

*Now later on*

*Spoiler*: __ 






Hinata acknowledges his acknowledgement (oooh that sounds weird ) about being by his side while recollecting the handhold and then promising to move forward. So the whole idea that Hinata is somehow done or doesn't belong in the pairing subplot is just not true.

Now about the whole Naruto doesn't know Hinata, well straight from the horse's mouth.

*Spoiler*: __ 




img



Naruto himself considers her a friend on the same level the rest of the rookies, including Sakura.

EDIT: Damn image cap, last one is a linky.


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## PAWS (Jan 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> I think some context is in order.
> 
> *Hinatas confession*
> 
> ...



Why are you trying to prove? We know Hinata loves Naruto. But just because she does, does not not mean he does. Unless you have a scan that proves otherwise?

Also dont say Naruto put Hinata and Sakura in the same boat as its clear he loves Sakura and has said it. He has not said anything like that to Hinata.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that Sakura means something a little more than just a friend to him, since he told his father that. Sakura is on a boat different than what Hinata is on.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 13, 2014)

Can we stop ignoring the chapter after where he say's he won't tease her anymore? Yea that'd be great. Just because he said it doesn't mean it's true, nor does it mean he was being serious nor does Sakura like that he said it.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Can we stop ignoring the chapter after where he say's he won't tease her anymore? Yea that'd be great. Just because he said it doesn't mean it's true, nor does it mean he was being serious nor does Sakura like that he said it.




The situation where he says he won't tease her anymore and the situation where he says he thinks of Sakura as a girlfriend don't even fit the same context. Naruto is known for having a loose mouth when it comes to calling Sakura 'manly' or having brute strength, which she usually pounds him for.

But, have you ever known Naruto to joke about how he feels? There was no indication that he was even talking about the girlfriend comment, which he was obviously serious about. Naruto never _teases_ about how he feels for someone.


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## sakuraboobs (Jan 13, 2014)

And even if Naruto was being serious (in fact he wasn't) Sakura remains repulsed by idea of ​​being his girlfriend and add the fact  of her being in love with another guy.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 13, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> And even if Naruto was being serious (in fact he wasn't) Sakura remains repulsed by idea of ​​being his girlfriend and add the fact  of her being in love with another guy.



Was this supposed to be ironic?

I recall Sasuke trying to kill the girl you want him to be with three times on top of showing zero interest and even his own repulsion toward her advances.


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## Njaa (Jan 13, 2014)

Actually i never mentioned who Naruto loves, only that he considers all the rookies as his friends equally, including Sakura. Beyond that it was just a counter to the assumption that Hinata is somehow "done".



LadyofHubris said:


> The situation where he says he won't tease her anymore and the situation where he says he thinks of Sakura as a girlfriend don't even fit the same context. Naruto is known for having a loose mouth when it comes to calling Sakura 'manly' or having brute strength, which she usually pounds him for.
> 
> But, have you ever known Naruto to joke about how he feels? There was no indication that he was even talking about the girlfriend comment, which he was obviously serious about. Naruto never _teases_ about how he feels for someone.



Then what is the context to Naruto's reaction in 632? As it certainly doesn't exist within a vacuum.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> And even if Naruto was being serious (in fact he wasn't) Sakura remains repulsed by idea of ​​being his girlfriend and add the fact  of her being in love with another guy.




How do you know that he wasn't serious? That's going off of wishful thinking. He looked serious as a heart attack to me. Sakura certainly took it seriously, and she acted accordingly. 

On another note, you don't even know if it was the idea of being with Naruto romantically that made her hit him. Have you ever sat down and considered the possibility that he wasn't concentrating on healing his wounds, which was what flew out of her mouth when she did hit him.

"Concentrate on your wounds!" She shouted that as she hit him, not "Never in a thousand years, buddy!" It would've made more sense for her to say that rather than the former if she were really disgusted at that thought. She was right, too. He wasn't concentrating on his wounds, but he was telling his father that they were something that they were not. 

Also, what does that have to do with anything that she's in love with someone else? Is it not possible to love someone but still have developing feelings for someone else? People argue the same thing in regards to Naruhina, but why not Narusaku? 

The difference is, there have been hints of Sakura's developing feelings from several people throughout this manga, including Sakura herself. There hasn't been any from Naruto though, but that same argument is still being put out there.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Yes, because Naruto is a shonen manga. That's why I don't understand the argument that Naruto hasn't spoken about romantic feelings for Sakura in quite a while. That's not a valid argument because this manga isn't centered around such a thing and Kishimoto wouldn't have his main character running around like a lovesick puppy.
> 
> Just because it's not written into every other chapter that Naruto loves Sakura, it doesn't mean that it's not so.


Im glad we agree, but, don't you think its unfair only to use this to defend your pairing or argument but discarding it towards other party?
Why should it be accepted that for Naruto and Sakura no further development or shown is required in order for them to pair up but magically for Naruto and Hinata this is excluded ? Especially when Naruto's and Sakura's  development is static for a long long time and from only Sakura part but Naruto as well ? I will explain myself perfectly in the upcoming post.





> That's the point that I'm trying to make. Naruto has not shown any romantic inclination towards Hinata, ever. I explained why the hand incident can't be seen as romantic above because the context doesn't allow it to be so. In my opinion, the hand incident was really the _only_ mutual development that they had since the Chuunin exams.


Didn't we just agree above that there is no need for the manga  to focus on blatant love in order love to be hinted why suddenly it excluded  for Hinata alone ?

I highly disagree about the hand holding,the reason it can be easily assumed and was assumed by most as romantic is how the whole conversation emerged combined with the scene.
Why was it Hinata that snapped him out of despair  why it wasn't someone else since they are plenty that know Naruto well , why not Sakura ?
The reason is simple, like mentioned in my previous post because Naruto knows that Hinata understands him well if not the best, they share a lot and she can share the grief of his loss and loneliness that he is afraid of.If Kishi didn't want this to be viewed as romantic or assumed as then why he gives so much emphasis on Naruto holding her hand when he could easily just say thanks and move on with it, why emphasis on squeezing her hand ,why the emphasis on the words he choose while looking at Hinata.
Kishi wouldn't put it there randomly, especially  how holdhanding it is taken by the majority of the audience that reads this manga. Its just too convenient to say and discard this as a simple meaningless moment.






> If Naruto didn't feel the same, I'm sure he wouldn't have told his father that Sakura was his girlfriend. He probably would have said something like, "No, no, I don't like her like that", but he didn't. In my opinion, Naruto doesn't show his love like that because he has accepted that Sakura loves Sasuke a long time ago. Does that mean that he doesn't love her? It doesn't, because he would have stopped loving her a long time ago if that were the case. Heck, he would've stopped loving her when he gave the PoaL.


It would help  a lot indeed if it wasn't for the tone and the look on Naruto face which pretty much makes it to sound more like a tease/joke towards his father. If we take Naruto and his character he wouldve have blushed like you said  and try to hide it but he didn't. This is where it is shown  that indeed something changed with Naruto ,since we assumed that or got clues about that after Sakura's confession, he indeed is more mature but, why it is so convincingly happens right after the handlholding event ? Why wouldn Kishi make him blush ,especially in front of his father ?
Naruto knew about Sakuras feelings for Sasuke for a long time but it didn't change they way he acted when someone would imply them as couple.






> Actually, Naruto's initial reaction to the confession confirms that he still loves her because he appeared to be shocked/somewhat happy when she first said she loved him. If I'm mistaken, I believe there was a blush on his face; I'll have to go back and look.
> 
> You're right though. Naruto has matured, in regards to his feelings for Sakura, he has matured. Hell, you can tell that he had matured when it came to love as he was giving the PoaL. He had promised Sakura that he would bring Sasuke back to her because he knew that she loved him, despite his own feelings. That's maturity in my book.
> 
> Naruto's not the type of dude to chase anyone, and Sakura's case proves that, but does that mean he doesn't love the person still? No.


No , Narutos initial reaction  confirms that he knows about Sakura lying to him and he was surprised  on why she would do that suddenly do this when they are determined  more than ever to go after Sasuke,he got angry and hence his response making Sakura realizing how he hurt Naruto for not trusting him enough and how naive she was to try and go kill Sasuke alone.
Naruto blushed simply because a girl suddenly hugged him, he would blush even if tsunade would hug him, its normal for his age.
Like you said, Naruto shows his maturity and doesn't act  selfishly . This could also mean like you mentioned that he accepted Sakura love for Sasuke  for quite time actually , but , those that means that Naruto will  sit and wait around and hope for Sakura to love him sometimes or does that mean or Naruto tries to move on  ?
To put it simply Naruto was majorly disappointed by Sakura.







> No, they are not strangers, but they don't know each other that well. Naruto and Hinata don't go on missions that often, unless you count filler. I also explained above how Naruto and Hinata have gone past that understanding each other stage because Naruto is no longer in solitude and he has gained the acknowledgement that he has been striving for all of this time. All of these things are what Hinata can relate to Naruto about, but he has moved past that already. He has already gained the acknowledgement of the village and he has friends all around him now. I don't know what Hinata's situation is with her father, but she is still at the place that she was in part I in regards to some of the issues. Has she gained the acknowledgement and respect of her clan?
> 
> That is unknown.
> 
> ...


This is where i highly disagree with you.
We agreed that in this manga  doesn't need to waste plenty of panels in order to show how two people get major developments since it can be done with one or few quality moments , the manga ofc wont show as much about Naruto and Hinata when it is centered about team 7 but, when it does it with a bang.
Like i mentioned, Sasuke and Narutos relationship is the prime example on how development between two people happens even if they are not close all the time, one moment is enough to cover it up and with hinata we got plenty of major moments that points us to her development with Naruto.
She and Naruto share a lot of similarities like ive said,some of them only they can understand ( like the loneliness of their past , the lack of acknowledgement  etc. ) pretty much like only Sasuke can understand Naruto  about him as well.
Yes Naruto indeed got the acknowledgement of the village but that means he discards his past? No, his mast is what made him strong, his past is what made him trying harder and reach this point and Hinata was one of the reasons, the whole Neji fight and Naruto fighting was empathizing how well Naruto understood her feelings  when she said the same words Naruto did. Hinata also was the only one that was  cheering for Naruto during Chunin exams without seeing him a monster ( besides the third ofc but im talking about his age), heck even ino made complain to Sakura on how she totally ignored Naruto and didnt care about his match.
Post Skip we got tons of moments that show their growth together and understanding, again, not with tons of meaningless panels but with major ones that relay the messages  pretty clear and in a strong way.
I explained about holdhanding and the reason why the majority view it as romantic.



> Also, please show me panels where it states that Hinata is the closest  person to him outside of team seven. I thought that Jiraiya was that?


I said the ones close to  his age ,unless you are expecting Naruto to have a chance to end up with Tsunade which is a different discussion.
Hinata seems to have the biggest impact  on him and we can clearly see that from their discussion, thats one of the reason why Hinata only could do the holdhanding speech and make him snap.




> Yes, there are. You can love someone like a comrade, a sister, a brother, a lover, or anything. Most of the time, it's best to know a person that you love. What would happen if you fell in love with someone who you secretly didn't know was abusive? It's best to know that person so that it would be up to you whether or not you would want to go down that romantic road with them or not.
> 
> That's why people go on dates, so that they can get to know the people they are interested in. People need to gain that mutual development in order to work toward something, whether it be platonic or not.


I was giving emphasis on romantic love,just trying to point out that knowing part can come later after two people love already. For Naruto and Hinata for example is not an issue because they already know plenty  about eachother . Now if that means it will help to their romantic affection for eachother,then i dunno, i personally believe so due to nature of Narutos character but thats just my opinion.






> That's the point. There has been little evidence that Naruto and Hinata _ever_ hung out. They have never been shown eating together, talking together, sharing their emotions, or anything. The only thing we know is that Hinata had been watching Naruto in the shadows as he trained. I could see if she actually went out there and talked to him, but she never did.
> 
> That is what's required for two people to form a relationship. You can't just form a relationship out of thin air when you have never interacted with that person like that before.
> .........


Like ive said before, quality>quantity , especially in a manga like Naruto.
Again,there is no need for Kishi to go into detailed panels just to prove us they got development, he does in major events, her confession,how naruto talks about her  and the handholding event are pretty much all the evidence ones need to understand that indeed there is mutual development between them,he even says " Thanks for always being at my side" , if this isnt major development then i do not know what else it.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Then what is the context to Naruto's reaction in 632? As it certainly doesn't exist within a vacuum.




The context is that Naruto is reacting to Sakura's brute strength, and in the past, Naruto has teased Sakura about her brute strength. It would make a lot more sense for him to refuse to tease her about brute strength as opposed to about his feelings. 

In fact, it wouldn't make sense for him to refuse to tease her about his feelings at all. Those are _his_ feelings, and he obviously wasn't teasing when he said that to his father.

The same thing happened when they both were doing the bell drill again, and Sakura smashed the ground. Naruto had that same reaction and he told himself that he needed to stop kidding around with her, or he would get hurt. Everytime Sakura does something amazing with her strength, he always reacts the same way.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> That's my point. Naruto and Sakura share the same nindo, but pretty much everything else, Naruto has gotten over. He has gotten over his lonely and tragic past because he now has friends to fill in that void, Naruto has already been accepted by everyone. Also, I think you're referring to the episode, which was filled with filler. You can't go by that episode saying that Hinata was the only one that was willing to reach out to Naruto, because it wasn't in the manga. The only thing we know is that Hinata would only watch Naruto, but she would never approach him, much like how most of the rookie nine did.


Naruto share the same nindo as Hinata afaik Sakura shares the same as Ino.
No im not referring to any episodes im clearly referring to the manga, Hinatas similarities to Naruto  are known since part 1 and more explained much better in part 2 by Hinatas viewpoint.
If Hinata didnt approach Naruto she would remain for ever that gloomy and dark person that Naruto  knows nothing,but, it is not, hence my point.






> I explained why the hand incident can't be seen as romantic above. Naruto never said that Hinata understands him the best either. He told her thank you and also thanked Neji for realizing that his life wasn't his own anymore. Nowhere did it state that Hinata understands him the best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As i explained on the reason why ti can be easily taken as romantic. Nejis sacrifice meant plenty of things ,especially if take the part on how he looked at Hinata when said that " hinata is ready to die for you hence your life is not yours alone" . Seriously there is a lot that point out about development between Hinata and Naruto, im not arguing that Naruto and Hinata will happen or not im just clearly pointing out and dismissing  claims about them not having relationship being a problem for the parring.


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## Njaa (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> The context is that Naruto is reacting to Sakura's brute strength, and in the past, Naruto has teased Sakura about her brute strength. It would make a lot more sense for him to refuse to tease her about brute strength as opposed to about his feelings.
> 
> In fact, it wouldn't make sense for him to refuse to tease her about his feelings at all. Those are _his_ feelings, and he obviously wasn't teasing when he said that to his father.



Really? then what is he referencing here?

When exactly did he "turn against her" for him to fear her strength?


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Really? then what is he referencing here?
> 
> When exactly did he "turn against her" for him to fear her strength?




He certainly wasn't talking about telling his father that she was his girlfriend. How would that be turning against her? In fact, that's turning *towards* her, romantically.

He turned against her by the teasing, as I mentioned before. Whenever he teases her about something, mostly pertaining to her strength or appearance, she pulverizes him or gets mad. In case you didn't know, Sakura is self-conscious and she has been ever since she was a little, little girl.


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## Njaa (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> He certainly wasn't talking about telling his father that she was his girlfriend. How would that be turning against her? In fact, that's turning *towards* her, romantically.
> 
> He turned against her by the teasing, as I mentioned before. Whenever he teases her about something, mostly pertaining to her strength or appearance, she pulverizes him or gets mad. In case you didn't know, Sakura is self-conscious and she has been ever since she was a little, little girl.



Yes and he teased her by butting in (Minato asked Sakura) and saying she was more or less his GF. Looks like he was using his own feelings to tease Sakura.

Oh and as to why that would be turning against her, well he made it quite clear back in iron country that that she loved Sasuke, now he's claiming her as his GF.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Yes and he teased her by butting in (Minato asked Sakura) and saying she was more or less his GF. Looks like he was using his own feelings to tease Sakura.
> 
> Oh and as to why that would be turning against her, well he made it quite clear back in iron country that that she loved Sasuke, now he's claiming her as his GF.




And that's bad because . . . ? If he was teasing, which I doubt, then that still wouldn't take away the truthfulness of how he felt or what he's feeling.

So, she loves Sasuke, so Naruto's going  to turn against her? That doesn't make sense either. Naruto has known that Sakura loves Sasuke ever since the beginning of part I, but he didn't turn against her then. That didn't stop him from still liking her as a girlfriend then, and I don't think it's stopping him now. 

His father asked the question, and he answered according to his feelings, whether he was teasing or not. Again, which I doubt that he was.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 13, 2014)

The back-and-forth between NaruHina and NaruSaku is hardly relevant to me. As to whether or not the other happens I honestly don't care about. They seem to be pretty much in the same league, and even moreso, on a more important characteristic of 'would I call the police if I knew the history of these two?', I don't find them atrocious.

The argument of "she loves him" in regard to SasuSaku however seems to be about the only argument the pairing has going for it. Because if you acknowledge all of its other characteristics you notice it has a much steeper hill to climb than the other two. Sasuke has shown zero romantic interest in anyone, period. This is conveniently ignored and for obvious reasons, if you wanna make a case for the pairing that is a pesky little detail that hurts the desired narrative. The argument that Naruto's awareness of Sakura's infatuation as to why he is/has/would give up is ridiculous on its face as well. He always comprehended the depth of her feelings and that never stopped him, and there is little to no reason to believe that is the case now. 

If one that wants NaruHina to happen, I would think they'd hope Naruto loved Sakura deeply, because if he does move on to Hinata then that would only emphasize the impression she left on him. Trying to argue that he had this flippant attitude not only belittles Naruto, it does of any pairing he'd be part of. Naruto is a person that emotes and attaches very strongly, whatever the nature; the argument should be about transference and transforming of the nature of his feelings in this case rather than the depth of them.


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## PAWS (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> I highly disagree about the hand holding,the reason it can be easily assumed and was assumed by most as romantic is how the whole conversation emerged combined with the scene.
> Why was it Hinata that snapped him out of despair  why it wasn't someone else since they are plenty that know Naruto well , why not Sakura ?
> The reason is simple, like mentioned in my previous post because Naruto knows that Hinata understands him well if not the best, they share a lot and she can share the grief of his loss and loneliness that he is afraid of.If Kishi didn't want this to be viewed as romantic or assumed as then why he gives so much emphasis on Naruto holding her hand when he could easily just say thanks and move on with it, why emphasis on squeezing her hand ,why the emphasis on the words he choose while looking at Hinata.
> Kishi wouldn't put it there randomly, especially  how holdhanding it is taken by the majority of the audience that reads this manga. Its just too convenient to say and discard this as a simple meaningless moment.



I am sorry but do you honestly believe Hinata would have been there had someone like Shikamaru,lee died. No she would not, she was there because of her connection to Neji.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

PAWS said:


> I am sorry but do you honestly believe Hinata would have been there had someone like Shikamaru,lee died. No she would not, she was there because of her connection to Neji.


I believe so , not because because of Neji ( which indeed gave more emphasis)  but mainly of what Obito said to Naruto about returning back to *loneliness* and guess which person understands his loneliness besides Sasuke since part 1 by watching him and sharing this same emotion ?


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## PAWS (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> I believe so , not because because of Neji ( which indeed gave more emphasis)  but mainly of what Obito said to Naruto about returning back to *loneliness* and guess which person understands his loneliness besides Sasuke since part 1 by watching him and sharing this same emotion ?



Show me scans of Hinata saying she was lonely? She was an underdog like Naruto but I never saw anything about loneliness. She had people in her life so its totally different than Naruto and Sasuke.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Show me scans of Hinata saying she was lonely? She was an underdog like Naruto but I never saw anything about loneliness. She had people in her life so its totally different than Naruto and Sasuke.


There is no need for scans to prove anything, that can be clearly be seen if you read Naruto from the beginning till now.
Hinata was indeed lonely , she is burdened with her clan , her father thinks of her as weakling and cast aside for hanabi. Neji and the branch hated her for no reason just because for what she is ( hint, like Naruto being hated for carrying the kyuubi)  and because Neji's father died  and he blames hinata being kidnapped by the Land of Lightning .
So yeah she was an outcast just like Naruto hence how she admired him and got inspired by him.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> Im glad we agree, but, don't you think its unfair only to use this to defend your pairing or argument but discarding it towards other party?
> Why should it be accepted that for Naruto and Sakura no further development or shown is required in order for them to pair up but magically for Naruto and Hinata this is excluded ? Especially when Naruto's and Sakura's  development is static for a long long time and from only Sakura part but Naruto as well ? I will explain myself perfectly in the upcoming post.



Firstly, that because Naruto and Sakura's mutual development has been occurring ever since the beginning of this series. It first started in chapter three, and has been ongoing ever since. Hinata's one-sided development started in the Chunin exams and that's all it has been mostly: one-sided development because she's the one that needs the development from the Naruhina relationship, not Naruto. 

It was made clear how Naruto felt about Sakura since the very beginning, and the reader should keep that in mind. When the main character loving someone is stated in the beginning, and until the character states otherwise, that protagonist still loves that character. Because, again, shonen manga doesn't concentrate on romance and a main character falling in love with someone else. 

That's why it works in the case of Naruto -> Sakura. Naruto is a protagonist to a shonen manga, and until he says he doesn't love Sakura, then he does. A shonen manga isn't going to concentrate on the main character and his struggle with love whilst moving onto someone else. 

As for Naruto, he has never expressed how he felt about Hinata as more than a comrade. That would be like Naruto constantly having to express how he feels about Tenten or Rock lee or someone else in the rookie nine. 




> Didn't we just agree above that there is no need for the manga  to focus on blatant love in order love to be hinted why suddenly it excluded  for Hinata alone ?
> 
> I highly disagree about the hand holding,the reason it can be easily assumed and was assumed by most as romantic is how the whole conversation emerged combined with the scene.
> Why was it Hinata that snapped him out of despair  why it wasn't someone else since they are plenty that know Naruto well , why not Sakura ?
> ...



That whole conversation in the chapter emerged from camaraderie, and it remained that way until the very end. It was Hinata because Hinata had been doing what any comrade has been doing for Naruto for the longest. She has always been by his side and she has always believed in him, like what a comrade should always do. If anyone wanted to teach Naruto that lesson, it should be Hinata because she has been doing it ever since the beginning. 

There was no emphasis on the hand incident. People are placing emphasis on the hand holding because they are fans of the two people and it's considered a romantic gesture, but the context is what's important. Also, why exactly is the words he choose so important? Kishimoto gave emphasis on Naruto's comrade words because that is what he feels for Hinata. Not only that, but Naruto grabbed Hinata's hand to initiate the chakra transfer so there was a purpose behind that as well.

No one is saying that the moment is meaningless. What I'm saying is that the message isn't about them holding hands, it's about the camaraderie and Naruto knowing that his life isn't just his own anymore. It's about him knowing that his comrades are there to die for him. 




> It would help  a lot indeed if it wasn't for the tone and the look on Naruto face which pretty much makes it to sound more like a tease/joke towards his father. If we take Naruto and his character he wouldve have blushed like you said  and try to hide it but he didn't. This is where it is shown  that indeed something changed with Naruto ,since we assumed that or got clues about that after Sakura's confession, he indeed is more mature but, why it is so convincingly happens right after the handlholding event ? Why wouldn Kishi make him blush ,especially in front of his father ?
> Naruto knew about Sakuras feelings for Sasuke for a long time but it didn't change they way he acted when someone would imply them as couple.




Like I told the other debater, nothing has stopped Naruto from liking Sakura before, even if she did like Sasuke. You can't really use the confession as an argument because he already knew that Sakura loved Sasuke from the beginning, so why would he tease her about such a thing? It certainly didn't change how he felt about her. 

Whether he is blushing or not, that still doesn't change the fact that he answered according to how he felt. On top of that, Naruto knows that Sakura isn't really his girlfriend, so why would he blush to something that he knows isn't true? 




> No , Narutos initial reaction  confirms that he knows about Sakura lying to him and he was surprised  on why she would do that suddenly do this when they are determined  more than ever to go after Sasuke,he got angry and hence his response making Sakura realizing how he hurt Naruto for not trusting him enough and how naive she was to try and go kill Sasuke alone.
> Naruto blushed simply because a girl suddenly hugged him, he would blush even if tsunade would hug him, its normal for his age.
> Like you said, Naruto shows his maturity and doesn't act  selfishly . This could also mean like you mentioned that he accepted Sakura love for Sasuke  for quite time actually , but , those that means that Naruto will  sit and wait around and hope for Sakura to love him sometimes or does that mean or Naruto tries to move on  ?
> To put it simply Naruto was majorly disappointed by Sakura.



That initial reaction was after he caught the lie about her not caring for Sasuke. Also, no, Naruto didn't blush because a girl was hugging him. He was blushing when Sakura said she loved him. Go back and read the chapter if you need to. 

Naruto accepted Sakura's love for Sasuke a long time ago, but has there been indication that he is moving on? No, because this is a shonen manga and this story wouldn't center on the protagonist falling in love with someone else. Second, just because Naruto has accepted that Sakura's love in with someone else, that doesn't mean that he's going to stop loving her. His actions should tell you that. He would still tell his father that she's his girlfriend, wouldn't he?


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

> This is where i highly disagree with you.
> We agreed that in this manga  doesn't need to waste plenty of panels in order to show how two people get major developments since it can be done with one or few quality moments , the manga ofc wont show as much about Naruto and Hinata when it is centered about team 7 but, when it does it with a bang.
> Like i mentioned, Sasuke and Narutos relationship is the prime example on how development between two people happens even if they are not close all the time, one moment is enough to cover it up and with hinata we got plenty of major moments that points us to her development with Naruto.
> She and Naruto share a lot of similarities like ive said,some of them only they can understand ( like the loneliness of their past , the lack of acknowledgement  etc. ) pretty much like only Sasuke can understand Naruto  about him as well.
> ...



That's it. The development that Hinata needed from Naruto being her idol ultimately ended in part I. Also, no one is saying that Naruto discards his past, but the thing that both Naruto and Hinata could relate on his gone. The NejixNaruto fight just wasn't about how Naruto understood  her feelings, but more on not giving up and beating up Neji for hurting Hinata that way. 

Another thing, in fact, Hinata wasn't the only one that cheered Naruto on. You're giving Hinata way too much credit for a lot of stuff. 

, look here, , , , it looks to me like Sakura's the only one really cheering on Naruto, so your argument in invalid. Also, in one of those photos, Hinata's actually one of the people who doubts Naruto when Sakura's the only who actually believes he can win. 

I also explained why that hand incident can't be interpreted as romantic. 



> I said the ones close to  his age ,unless you are expecting Naruto to have a chance to end up with Tsunade which is a different discussion.
> Hinata seems to have the biggest impact  on him and we can clearly see that from their discussion, thats one of the reason why Hinata only could do the holdhanding speech and make him snap.



I don't think so. Whenever Hinata shows up, she is a part of the rookie nine as a whole. He cares about all of his comrades equally, and she is just that. Hinata doesn't have a bigger impact on him than anyone else out there. 




> I was giving emphasis on romantic love,just trying to point out that knowing part can come later after two people love already. For Naruto and Hinata for example is not an issue because they already know plenty  about eachother . *Now if that means it will help to their romantic affection for eachother,then i dunno, i personally believe so due to nature of Narutos character but thats just my opinion.*


 

You claim that Naruto and Hinata know plenty about each other, but Naruto and Sakura can't fall in love, yet they know more about each other than Naruto and Hinata do? That's sort of a contradiction. How can Naruto and Sakura's familiarity with each other not produce romantic feelings with each other? 




> Like ive said before, quality>quantity , especially in a manga like Naruto.
> Again,there is no need for Kishi to go into detailed panels just to prove us they got development, he does in major events, her confession,how naruto talks about her  and the handholding event are pretty much all the evidence ones need to understand that indeed there is mutual development between them,he even says " Thanks for always being at my side" , if this isnt major development then i do not know what else it.



Hinata's confession was a development for only Hinata. There was no development from Naruto at all, except that he got pissed and went on a rampage, which he has done plenty of times over the people he cares about. I'm sure he would've done that for any one of the rookie nine. 

What? Naruto barely talks about her! What are you saying? They barely see each other! 

"Thanks for being at my side" can be said to any one of the rookie nine. There's nothing romantic about that. It's more like camaraderie.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The back-and-forth between NaruHina and NaruSaku is hardly relevant to me. As to whether or not the other happens I honestly don't care about. They seem to be pretty much in the same league, and even moreso, on a more important characteristic of 'would I call the police if I knew the history of these two?', I don't find them atrocious.
> 
> The argument of "she loves him" in regard to SasuSaku however seems to be about the only argument the pairing has going for it. Because if you acknowledge all of its other characteristics you notice it has a much steeper hill to climb than the other two. Sasuke has shown zero romantic interest in anyone, period. This is conveniently ignored and for obvious reasons, if you wanna make a case for the pairing that is a pesky little detail that hurts the desired narrative. *The argument that Naruto's awareness of Sakura's infatuation as to why he is/has/would give up is ridiculous on its face as well. He always comprehended the depth of her feelings and that never stopped him, and there is little to no reason to believe that is the case now. *
> 
> If one that wants NaruHina to happen, I would think they'd hope Naruto loved Sakura deeply, because if he does move on to Hinata then that would only emphasize the impression she left on him. Trying to argue that he had this flippant attitude not only belittles Naruto, it does of any pairing he'd be part of. Naruto is a person that emotes and attaches very strongly, whatever the nature; the argument should be about transference and transforming of the nature of his feelings in this case rather than the depth of them.



I understand what you're saying here. That's one of the reasons why I find certain arguments that people make illogical. Sasusaku is the opposite of any normal, healthy relationship. 

The bolded part, I can concede to because I have been making that argument. I guess that girlfriend incident reiterates the fact that he hasn't given up on her.  Well, this is a shonen manga, so his love issues wouldn't be something brought up alot. 

What I can't stand is that the argument is brought up that Naruto is moving on when there has been no indication of such and there has also been no indication of his declining love for Sakura. Well, he _must_ still love her if he can say she's his girlfriend, point blank.


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## Lady Hinata (Jan 13, 2014)

The 631/632 scene is pretty much exactly the same as the 245/246 scene. 

*245/246*



*Spoiler*: _246_ 








*631/632*




*So the formula goes*: 
>Team 7 is assembled again. 
>Naruto does something to annoy Sakura (sexy no jutsu/girlfriend comment)
>Sakura hits him for it
>Next chapter Sakura shows off her power
>Naruto monkey-faces and says he needs to stop joking around in front of/poking fun at Sakura lest she pulverizes/kill him.
>Kakashi/Shizune mentions something about Sakura's power (her building up maximum chakra/saving up chakra etc.) 

I see no big differences from either of those scenes except for the fact that in the earlier one, Naruto has a kind of smile on his face (I suppose) when he says this. Yet in 632, he's all monkey-face while Sasuke is the one with the smile/smirk.  

Naruto saying in 632 that he needs to stop poking fun at Sakura makes _no_ contextual sense if he isn't talking about his GF comment in 631. Unless one is going to argue that he's referring to the last time he's joked around with or made her upset with him...which was hundreds of chapters ago, so I don't see why he'd randomly address this when it has nothing to do with her showing off her strength. Naruto also hasn't joked about her strength in hundreds of chapters, so that makes zero sense as well.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 13, 2014)

I think you're just looking too much into it to be perfectly honest.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> There is no need for scans to prove anything, that can be clearly be seen if you read Naruto from the beginning till now.
> Hinata was indeed lonely , she is burdened with her clan , her father thinks of her as weakling and cast aside for hanabi. Neji and the branch hated her for no reason just because for what she is ( hint, like Naruto being hated for carrying the kyuubi)  and because Neji's father died  and he blames hinata being kidnapped by the Land of Lightning .
> So yeah she was an outcast just like Naruto hence how she admired him and got inspired by him.




You can't provide a scan because there isn't a scan.

Hinata's issue wasn't solitude, but recognition. Hinata had her family and friends, but Naruto had *no one*. She can't possibly relate to Naruto when it pertains to that because she had bonds, Naruto and Sasuke didn't. The only thing Hinata can really relate to Naruto on is recognition and earning respect from people, but Naruto has accomplished all of this gradually; there is nothing else that they can relate on except their Nindo.


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## Njaa (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Why do you continue to beat a dead horse? Naruto doesn't throw it away because he wasn't talking about the girlfriend he made towards his father. He is most likely talking about those incidents where he teased Sakura for her brute strength.



Sorry but that is wrong, can you tell me when was the last time that Sakura hit him before he made that comment? Since in 631 she hit him cause Naruto implied she was his GF, before that though, if memory serves (and i could be wrong don't really remember everything) it was before the hug (and context wise the before-hug doesn't fit either) and before that maybe during the immortals arc. So how can he fear her strength over something that happened over half the manga ago and be recalling it now?



> Re-read the responses I gave to you, and you will see that I argued everything that you're still continuing to argue now. Naruto's face and his demeanor doesn't spell as comical; he was being serious.
> 
> As Seto Kaiba and I agreed on, just because Naruto knows that Sakura loves Sasuke, that doesn't stop him from loving her. He will contnue to respond and act according to his feelings, point blank. Apparently, if he is asked if Sakura is his girlfriend, then he will say yes because that is what he feels she is to him.
> 
> Simple.



What makes it not so serious is his comment the very next chapter, he's referencing and action of his that caused Sakura to hit him, if the GF comment is not that action then the last one, as i stated above, is over half the manga ago. As to weather he still loves her romantically, that's a big unkown. On one hand he hasn't said he isn't but on the other his actions have made Hinata think she will be with him.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

Lady Hinata said:


> The 631/632 scene is pretty much exactly the same as the 245/246 scene.
> 
> *245/246*
> 
> ...



That is exactly what I was arguing. Those first two examples you gave are exactly what I was talking about. Sakura reacts whenever Naruto does something pertaining to teasing appearances or her brute strength. As I said before, Naruto is very loose-lipped and says things that offend her easily. He has done so before. If Naruto didn't look serious during that GF comment and the demeanor wasn't comical, then why are we going to assume so? 

You can interpret his face as comical if you wish, but it definitely doesn't look so to me. , as well as ,  that's the face of someone teasing, not what's above. 

If you noticed on the first example you gave, there was no indication that he had been teasing her beforehand for him to make that statement about not teasing her anymore. She just strikes the ground and he makes that statement in his head, there was no teasing shown beforehand. Yet, on the last example, we are going to assume that he's talking about the GF comment just because it happened before hand, which he looked serious in saying? That doesn't illustrate anything, but that Naruto is reminded not to ever tease Sakura for fear of feeling that wrath. 



> *So the formula goes*:
> >Team 7 is assembled again.
> >Naruto does something to annoy Sakura (sexy no jutsu/girlfriend comment)
> >Sakura hits him for it
> ...



That's the point, Naruto is always making Sakura upset about something and he's reminded not to do that every time he sees her brute strength. That automatically doesn't mean he's referring to the GF comment, which he most likely *meant*. Following a 'formula' doesn't prove anything. He's not teasing her about calling her GF. He's not poking fun at her for calling her his girlfriend; but he's answering based off of his emotions. 

If answering based off of your emotions = poking fun, then I have no idea. 

The formula is that every time Naruto sees her power, he is reminded not to make fun of her. Doesn't matter if the last time he poked fun of her was 100 chapters ago. He's reminded each time never to do it again. In my eyes, a 'formula' is like parallelism and that can't actually be factual.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jan 13, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I think you're just looking too much into it to be perfectly honest.



Of course.

That was something that we should've taken at face value. Point blank.

This goes a lot for the manga, regardless of pairings. Trying to find meaning in something that's really not there. Kishimoto is not a subtle man by any means. 

The idea that scene was meant to be a joke and not reconfirm what we ALREADY KNEW (that Naruto loves Sakura) is not only ridiculous, but just being outright being in denial and just making up facts to fit the narrative.

I also love the double standard of Naruto having to reaffirm his feelings in an obvious way (nevermind the fact that he did this in 631) but Sakura just thinking about Sasuke is "YUP! Totally loves him!" even though technically both haven't stated their feelings outright in quite some time, but the implication is obvious to anyone who isn't trying to play shipping wars for their preferred ship. 

Again, I say, take any sane and rational person of the street, have them read 631 and 615 and they'd assume a romantic moment, not that it was meant to be a joke.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

Again i explained myself perfectly that my main point was to discard the pointless argument that Naruto and Hinata  do not have development which is plain evidently wrong, no matter if you want to take those moments as romantic or not it is a manga fact.




LadyofHubris said:


> Firstly, that because Naruto and Sakura's mutual development has been occurring ever since the beginning of this series. It first started in chapter three, and has been ongoing ever since. Hinata's one-sided development started in the Chunin exams and that's all it has been mostly: one-sided development because she's the one that needs the development from the Naruhina relationship, not Naruto.
> 
> It was made clear how Naruto felt about Sakura since the very beginning, and the reader should keep that in mind. When the main character loving someone is stated in the beginning, and until the character states otherwise, that protagonist still loves that character. Because, again, shonen manga doesn't concentrate on romance and a main character falling in love with someone else.


I explained this before, this manga focuses on team7 mainly and their characters, does that mean they are all bound to romance between that team ? NO.
There is no need to waste panels for Naruto to talk about any romance,for simple reasons he doesn't focus on Narutos love story but about how he grows up in general, romance can be part of it and hinted in many ways but thats it.
What Sakura development and Naruto, for once take Sakura out of team 7 and point me out this so called development that Sakura and Naruto got and Naruto and Hinata don't, because as far i recall Hinata was inspired by Naruto since he was child ( and not during chunning exams) , Naruto gave her courage ,she was always watching him and Chunnin exams and Neji fight  and the nindo talk pretty much show that.
What was Sakuras childhood interaction with Naruto or anything related to Naruto ?
Again your making like a crush means deal done which is not, i explained in my previous post on how a persons feelings can change and how someone simply can move on, i do not understand why it is so hard to accept it.







> That's why it works in the case of Naruto -> Sakura. Naruto is a protagonist to a shonen manga, and until he says he doesn't love Sakura, then he does. A shonen manga isn't going to concentrate on the main character and his struggle with love whilst moving onto someone else.
> 
> As for Naruto, he has never expressed how he felt about Hinata as more than a comrade. That would be like Naruto constantly having to express how he feels about Tenten or Rock lee or someone else in the rookie nine.


So we are back to square 1 again,you agree that manga doesn't need to empathize on romance but you require vocal/written proof and discard anything else  that may be hinted throughout the manga.

For some reason you also try to reduce Hinata's impact/importance to Naruto, your comparing her to Ten Ten  like its the same thing when its not, i explained to you plenty of times about Naruto and Hinatas similarities  and they past and their whole development together, it doesn't matter if its romantic or not it is there and its infact more than Ten Ten and Rock Lee as you put it there.










> That whole conversation in the chapter emerged from camaraderie, and it remained that way until the very end. It was Hinata because Hinata had been doing what any comrade has been doing for Naruto for the longest. She has always been by his side and she has always believed in him, like what a comrade should always do. If anyone wanted to teach Naruto that lesson, it should be Hinata because she has been doing it ever since the beginning.
> 
> There was no emphasis on the hand incident. People are placing emphasis on the hand holding because they are fans of the two people and it's considered a romantic gesture, but the context is what's important. Also, why exactly is the words he choose so important? Kishimoto gave emphasis on Naruto's comrade words because that is what he feels for Hinata. Not only that, but Naruto grabbed Hinata's hand to initiate the chakra transfer so there was a purpose behind that as well.
> 
> No one is saying that the moment is meaningless. What I'm saying is that the message isn't about them holding hands, it's about the camaraderie and Naruto knowing that his life isn't just his own anymore. It's about him knowing that his comrades are there to die for him.


That is *your* opinion,  and in fact the majority that did read the chapter took that moment as romantic or hinted at least and not some camaraderie,*mostly* people that dislike the pairing claim otherwise or we would never would have such big fuss about it .

Hinata was the most suited for the situation like explained to Paws in my previous post,putting random rookie in there would make the moment laughable and out of place,just think about it.

I explained the emphasis on the hands as well.
Hinata is the one talking about friends the how they live and die, she reminds  him of  the nindo as well and remind him the importance of his friends  and everyone he bonded with.
Narutos words to Hinata are important  because he talks about* her* being at his side and thanking *her  *for that .
It is true that the whole chapter is mainly focused on nakama and their will to fight by his side but that specific moment where he talks to Hinata its for Hinata herself and nobody else.
Naruto could handle chakra with a simple hi five but he didnt hence the emphasis from the manga about holding hands and narrator " never letting go of that hand" and not just simply chakra transfer.









> Like I told the other debater, nothing has stopped Naruto from liking Sakura before, even if she did like Sasuke. You can't really use the confession as an argument because he already knew that Sakura loved Sasuke from the beginning, so why would he tease her about such a thing? It certainly didn't change how he felt about her.
> 
> Whether he is blushing or not, that still doesn't change the fact that he answered according to how he felt. On top of that, Naruto knows that Sakura isn't really his girlfriend, so why would he blush to something that he knows isn't true?


Naruto knew that Saruka loved Sasuke since part 1, way before the confession but it didn't stop him to chase after her, Naruto teasing her is normal as it is evidently done in the manga plenty of times and always rewarded by Sakura punching him, its the Sakuras trademark to punch" baka Naruto"  and Kishi uses it as comical relief  plenty of time sin the manga.
No, if Naruto was honest and truly meant he would blush and probably mess up his answer like he did all the times before, he didnt grow up magically to be such a straightforward guy, he is still a boy even tho he matured a lot during  the wars he have been through but that doesnt mean he matured romantically enough to make him.Naruto expected the punch , heck couple of chapter after he pretty much points out for not teasing Sakura again because with her new power he will simply die....
Naruto always used to blush when it was about Sakura romantically involved with him but now he didnt thats my point.







> That initial reaction was after he caught the lie about her not caring for Sasuke. Also, no, Naruto didn't blush because a girl was hugging him. He was blushing when Sakura said she loved him. Go back and read the chapter if you need to.
> 
> Naruto accepted Sakura's love for Sasuke a long time ago, but has there been indication that he is moving on? No, because this is a shonen manga and this story wouldn't center on the protagonist falling in love with someone else. Second, just because Naruto has accepted that Sakura's love in with someone else, that doesn't mean that he's going to stop loving her. His actions should tell you that. He would still tell his father that she's his girlfriend, wouldn't he?


Naruto is a boy and no matter who would come and confess to him out of blue and hug him he would blush, 100% guaranteed.
Is there been any indication that Naruto still loves Sakura, heck all im seeing is kishi putting emphasis on Sakura  loving Sasuke and nothing more, not even Naruto that  we know used to have feelings for her, why is that ?

To close this up i want to say i clearly explained myself on how Naruto and Hinata got enough development for them to have  a romantic relationship , that was my  intention  of the first post.
I believe that we wont see any conclusion ( or at all in general ) till the end of the series or sometime after the war events as Kishi probably wants to keep both fans attracted to the series till the end, yes toying with fanbase and their feelings is a marketing stunt.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> You can't provide a scan because there isn't a scan.
> 
> Hinata's issue wasn't solitude, but recognition. Hinata had her family and friends, but Naruto had *no one*. She can't possibly relate to Naruto when it pertains to that because she had bonds, Naruto and Sasuke didn't. The only thing Hinata can really relate to Naruto on is recognition and earning respect from people, but Naruto has accomplished all of this gradually; there is nothing else that they can relate on except their Nindo.


If you honestly do not see the solitude and loneliness in what i posted about a small child then i guess nothing will.
The scans are there, read the manga  around Chunnin exams and especially the parts where Hinata is mentioned.
Sasuke was Narutos first true friend, first person he actually bonded and understood him and his loneliness, does that make the others who lived lonely life invalid  just because they didn't came and interacting with him earlier? 
She was a child that he father  cast away, he branch family hated her, she got kidnapped , yes i guess she was full with joy from all these events.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

^ That's fine with me. I'm still going to stand by my stance that the entire message of that hand incident was camaraderie, but others choose to focus on just the hand-holding when it's not even about that. That's like looking at Waldo when there's an entire picture or looking at a flower petal when there's an entire bouquet.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 13, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> ^ That's fine with me. I'm still going to stand by my stance that the entire message of that hand incident was camaraderie, but others choose to focus on just the hand-holding when it's not even about that. That's like looking at Waldo when there's an entire picture or look at a flower petal when there's an entire bouquet.


That message  can work both ways  but i feel its wrong from both sides to discard one or another since it could actually mean both.
I also forgot to mention that there are plenty of Shounen manga where the main doesnt end up with his love interest , Slam Dunk for example shares same pater as Naruto , from Sakuragi>Haruko>Rukawa with Naruto>Sakura>Sasuke.
Also my all times favorite Rurouni Kenshin is another one.


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## Naiki (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> That message  can work both ways  but i feel its wrong from both sides to discard one or another since it could actually mean both.
> I also forgot to mention that there are plenty of Shounen manga where the main doesnt end up with his love interest , Slam Dunk for example shares same pater as Naruto , from Sakuragi>Haruko>Rukawa with Naruto>Sakura>Sasuke.
> Also my all times favorite Rurouni Kenshin is another one.




I've never seen those shows, but let me ask you this: Did the main character depict signs of moving on from his love interest and onto the other woman? You have to remember, the conclusion of this manga is very near, and yet no one has shown signs of having their feelings shift. It has been hinted at once or twice by other characters that Sakura is developing feelings for Naruto, but that is not valid.

If that characters did openly depict those signs, then you can't compare that to this anime because Naruto *hasn't* been showing signs.


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## PAWS (Jan 13, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> That message  can work both ways  but i feel its wrong from both sides to discard one or another since it could actually mean both.
> I also forgot to mention that there are plenty of Shounen manga where the main doesnt end up with his love interest , Slam Dunk for example shares same pater as Naruto , from Sakuragi>Haruko>Rukawa with Naruto>Sakura>Sasuke.
> Also my all times favorite Rurouni Kenshin is another one.



That has nothing to do with it, do you think we think the pairing will happen because they are main characters? No they have their own development that shows why it will happen. More so than any other pairings. And when it comes to a manga, quality and quantity really has no say.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> I've never seen those shows, but let me ask you this: Did the main character depict signs of moving on from his love interest and onto the other woman? You have to remember, the conclusion of this manga is very near, and yet no one has shown signs of having their feelings shift. It has been hinted at once or twice by other characters that Sakura is developing feelings for Naruto, but that is not valid.


Nope, i named the series as they go totally against the stereotypical shounen MC always gets the girl he firstly falls in love with.
I won't spoil since you may read em sometimes but in Slam Dunk's occasion the romance seems similar , Sakuragi joined Basketball team because of Haruko  as in Naruto joined ( or wanted hoped to) due to Sakura.

In case of Rurouni Kenshin its different since the romance in there even for a shounen is considered as high standard but it still goes against typical shounen romance.  




PAWS said:


> That has nothing to do with it, do you think we think the pairing will happen because they are main characters? No they have their own development that shows why it will happen. More so than any other pairings. And when it comes to a manga, quality and quantity really has no say.


As i mentioned above my point was about  how MC love towards the first girl he falls doesn't always works  as it seems to be taken.

As for the pairing development , i will just say that Kishi really sucks at writing manga and just leave it like that.


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## Lady Hinata (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> That is exactly what I was arguing. Those first two examples you gave are exactly what I was talking about. Sakura reacts whenever Naruto does something pertaining to teasing appearances or her brute strength. As I said before, Naruto is very loose-lipped and says things that offend her easily. He has done so before. If Naruto didn't look serious during that GF comment and the demeanor wasn't comical, then why are we going to assume so?
> 
> You can interpret his face as comical if you wish, but it definitely doesn't look so to me. , as well as ,  that's the face of someone teasing, not what's above.
> 
> If you noticed on the first example you gave, there was no indication that he had been teasing her beforehand for him to make that statement about not teasing her anymore. She just strikes the ground and he makes that statement in his head, there was no teasing shown beforehand. Yet, on the last example, we are going to assume that he's talking about the GF comment just because it happened before hand, which he looked serious in saying? That doesn't illustrate anything, but that Naruto is reminded not to ever tease Sakura for fear of feeling that wrath.



So then what offended her in 631 to make him not want to cross her in 632? Him randomly commenting about not teasing her when he hasn't done it in hundreds of chapters doesn't make any sense. He joked around, then when she showed him her true power, he declares in his mind that he needs to stop poking fun at her just like in 246, or else he'll die. 

From what I understand, you're arguing that every time he sees her strength, he's reminded to not poke fun at her, but my point was that the formula involves Naruto doing something to annoy her _before_ he sees her strength, and _then_ he is reminded that he should not be doing things to annoy her. That is a vital part of the formula: Naruto is saying or doing something she does not like. In other words, Sakura does not like him insinuating they are dating. Just like she doesn't like him doing Sexy no Jutsu in front of her. 

From this scene below, it also seems that Naruto doesn't just joke in one way. This scene is when Naruto gets up after the Yamato/Sakura scene during the Sasuke arc and he questions why Sakura is crying. Jumping up, he is looking around wildly while asking Sakura what "Sai did now." Did he call her "butt ugly" or "freak of nature?" 


Sakura hits him in the stomach, calling him a moron and that he just made 
"freak of nature" up. The way I took that scene was that Naruto was teasing her about her unnatural strength behind the facade of anger, probably to stop her from crying by directing her to hit him.

That's how I took that scene at least.



> That's the point, Naruto is always making Sakura upset about something and he's reminded not to do that every time he sees her brute strength. That automatically doesn't mean he's referring to the GF comment, which he most likely *meant*. Following a 'formula' doesn't prove anything. He's not teasing her about calling her GF. He's not poking fun at her for calling her his girlfriend; but he's answering based off of his emotions.
> 
> If answering based off of your emotions = poking fun, then I have no idea.
> 
> The formula is that every time Naruto sees her power, he is reminded not to make fun of her. Doesn't matter if the last time he poked fun of her was 100 chapters ago. He's reminded each time never to do it again. In my eyes, a 'formula' is like parallelism and that can't actually be factual.



See above.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

I feel what really needs to be discussed here is writer's intent rather than the merits of each pairing. We could all probably go on for hours as to why we dislike certain pairings and in the end it doesn't get us anywhere (Not that this thread has ever gone anywhere either)

-If NH wants to make a case for canon they need to present evidence that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are changing and that Hinata is the new love interest.

-If NS wants to make a case for canon they need to show that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are changing and Naruto is the new love interest.

-I feel like it's almost unnecessary to discuss SS because all the negativity surrounding their development and Sakura is distrustful of Sasuke. It seems unlikely that their relationship will end will romance let alone something positive.



Also comparing Naruto to other series is ridiculous and we should be focusing on what the manga has shown us not something completely unrelated.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> I feel what really needs to be discussed here is writer's intent rather than the merits of each pairing. We could all probably go on for hours as to why we dislike certain pairings and in the end it doesn't get us anywhere (Not that this thread has ever gone anywhere either)
> 
> -If NH wants to make a case for canon they need to present evidence that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are changing and that Hinata is the new love interest.
> 
> ...



If you realized what counts as 'evidence' then you'd realize that going on that would be a more endless argument than one of its merits. Bringing in writer's intent would just make it more of a mess. As a matter of fact if we went on merits, then I think it's clear SasuSaku is the biggest loser here.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

Lady Hinata said:


> So then what offended her in 631 to make him not want to cross her in 632? Him randomly commenting about not teasing her when he hasn't done it in hundreds of chapters doesn't make any sense. He joked around, then when she showed him her true power, he declares in his mind that he needs to stop poking fun at her just like in 246, or else he'll die.
> 
> From what I understand, you're arguing that every time he sees her strength, he's reminded to not poke fun at her, but my point was that the formula involves Naruto doing something to annoy her _before_ he sees her strength, and _then_ he is reminded that he should not be doing things to annoy her. That is a vital part of the formula: Naruto is saying or doing something she does not like. In other words, Sakura does not like him insinuating they are dating. Just like she doesn't like him doing Sexy no Jutsu in front of her.
> 
> ...




That's the point I've been trying to argue. It doesn't matter if Naruto poked fun at Sakura beforehand or not. If Sakura does something destructive, it strikes fear into Naruto and he is reminded, "don't mess with this chick". That's why I gave reference to your first example. In that example, Naruto had just come back from three years of training and I highly doubt he had any time to poke fun at Sakura's strength or anything like that, yet he was still fearful when he witnessed the wrath of Sakura. Even though it had been a couple years since he might of teased Sakura or said something to her, he was _still_ afraid and stated the _same_ thing. 

The fact that he might of been teasing her or not is irrelevant. Even if Naruto wasn't teasing, he would be afraid because he still knows not to "mess with this chick".

The bottom line is: Whether or not he was teasing beforehand, he will still react the same way if she obliterates something in front of him, regardless.

You also have to remember that hundreds of chapters to us could be months for them. Still, that goes back to my point. It was three years and Naruto still reacted that way when Sakura smashed the ground. I highly doubt hundreds of chapters will equal three years. I'd say around 3 - 8 months, but I know it's not three years.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> I feel what really needs to be discussed here is writer's intent rather than the merits of each pairing. We could all probably go on for hours as to why we dislike certain pairings and in the end it doesn't get us anywhere (Not that this thread has ever gone anywhere either)
> 
> -If NH wants to make a case for canon they need to present evidence that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are changing and that Hinata is the new love interest.
> 
> ...


To be honest im just expecting Kishi to drag this as much as he can, i wouldn't even be surprised  if he just doesnt pair Naruto up with anyone and just end the manga with some post time skip showing Naruto standing as hokage in front of the whole village but lets assume he does end up with a paring, how it can be done ?

Unfortunately the evidence we got from Kishi makes him look really insecure when he writes about romance  so im not really expecting him to put much or any development besides few  panels where he will explain the life of people in the village and how life moves on.
There is a possibility that Kishi may write extra chapter to cover it or to explain some unseen events  that would involve Romance .
I honest believe Kishi just intents to drag this till end, for couple of reasons.





> Also comparing Naruto to other series is ridiculous and we should be  focusing on what the manga has shown us not something completely  unrelated.


If this is pointed about my previous post.
I was just trying to point that typical shounen romance doesn't always apply, thats all, no direct comparison was intended.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> If you realized what counts as 'evidence' then you'd realize that going on that would be a more endless argument than one of its merits. Bringing in writer's intent would just make it more of a mess. As a matter of fact if we went on merits, then I think it's clear SasuSaku is the biggest loser here.




Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of the thread. I can agree intent could turn into something endless. It would be nice if we could try to look rationally at the manga with as little bias clouding as possible. I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out the best way to discuss this.



LivingHitokiri said:


> To be honest im just expecting Kishi to drag this as much as he can, i wouldn't even be surprised  if he just doesnt pair Naruto up with anyone and just end the manga with some post time skip showing Naruto standing as hokage in front of the whole village but lets assume he does end up with a paring, how it can be done ?
> 
> Unfortunately the evidence we got from Kishi makes him look really insecure when he writes about romance  so im not really expecting him to put much or any development besides few  panels where he will explain the life of people in the village and how life moves on.
> There is a possibility that Kishi may write extra chapter to cover it or to explain some unseen events  that would involve Romance .
> ...



I agree that Kishimoto will drag out the "love" triangles as much as possible. It seems to me that while SS has a couple nails in it's coffin NS and NH are on similar standings. Despite personally favoring NS, NH has zero negative development while there's the serious problem of Sakura using Naruto as an emotional crutch on NS's end. Still NH is lacking in confirmation from Naruto that Hinata is anything more than a comrade to him while Sakura's feelings for Naruto are more ambiguous.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

^ I agree with you Anlaced. There's no confirmation that Sakura actually _loves_ Naruto, but her feelings are not completely "comrade only" either. This has been hinted at several times by characters.


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## Kage (Jan 14, 2014)

It seems Sasusaku's fate is determined less by it's..._"development"_ and more on whether or not Naruto will finally shake off his pesky feelings for Sakura to live happily ever after with Hinata. For _some_ reason Naruhina ensures SasuSaku. With that in mind it's no wonder the earnestness of Naruto's feelings for Sakura (and on occasion, hers for him) are often belittled.

Sakura isn't in love with Naruto but being "disgusted" by the idea of a romantic relationship with him, who she may not be attracted to but has been nothing but a loyal, caring and dependable friend, says more about the kind of romantic feelings you _shouldn't_ be taking seriously. Like say, the _lack_ of disgust by the idea of a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't care about how many people he has to hurt to achieve his dubious goals.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> I agree that Kishimoto will drag out the "love" triangles as much as possible. It seems to me that while SS has a couple nails in it's coffin NS and NH are on similar standings. Despite personally favoring NS, NH has zero negative development while there's the serious problem of Sakura using Naruto as an emotional crutch on NS's end. Still NH is lacking in confirmation from Naruto that Hinata is anything more than a comrade to him while Sakura's feelings for Naruto are more ambiguous.


To be honest,after i witnessed team 7 reunion and the whole i wouldn't be surprised  if i saw something totally nuts happening about any pairings. 

The difference between each pairing is like Seto Kaiba said, about how each individual  understands/translates the hints that mangaka give us.
Having unbiased view when you support a pairing is impossible but yeah you can keep be objective as much its possible  and try to share out your opinions and debate about it properly,because, if everyone ignores each other and what exactly they try to point out then we get this endless circle which turns out to get really ugly and force people to really not bother or put any effort to write again.

The tragic part is that there is so much confusion with naruto world in general that sometimes trying to use logic doesn't really help hence people then tend to speculate and read behind the words and mangakas intentions.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> ^ I agree with you Anlaced. There's no confirmation that Sakura actually _loves_ Naruto, but her feelings are not completely "comrade only" either. This has been hinted at several times by characters.



Exactly. You can argue that Sakura loves Sasuke all you want. That much isn't in question, but to say that Sakura only sees Naruto as a friend is pretty ludicrous also, considering the multitude of characters and hints that have commented on it. 

At WORST Sakura and Naruto's relationship mirrors Ichigo and Rukia, i.e, they're not lovers, but they sure as hell aren't friends either.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

Kage said:


> It seems Sasusaku's fate is determined less by it's..._"development"_ and more on whether or not Naruto will finally shake off his pesky feelings for Sakura to live happily ever after with Hinata. For _some_ reason Naruhina ensures SasuSaku. With that in mind it's no wonder the earnestness of Naruto's feelings for Sakura (and on occasion, hers for him) are often belittled.



It would be really sad to see NH ensuring SS as SS is a cesspool of negativity.




Kage said:


> Sakura isn't in love with Naruto but being "disgusted" by the idea of a romantic relationship with him, who she may not be attracted to but has been nothing but a loyal, dependable friend, says more about the kind of romantic feelings you _shouldn't_ be taking seriously. Like say, the _lack_ of disgust by the idea of a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't care about how many people he has to hurt to achieve his dubious goals.







LadyofHubris said:


> ^ I agree with you Anlaced. There's no confirmation that Sakura actually _loves_ Naruto, but her feelings are not completely "comrade only" either. This has been hinted at several times by characters.




The comments by other characters are probably the strongest indication that Sakura feels something towards Naruto that isn't just camaraderie. It also seems stupid to have these characters be cut off unless they were going to say something significant about Sakura's feelings. Love or not.

With Naruto in some serious danger, I think the next couple of chapters could be telling of the standings of NH and NS.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> The comments by other characters are probably the strongest indication that Sakura feels something towards Naruto that isn't just camaraderie. It also seems stupid to have these characters be cut off unless they were going to say something significant about Sakura's feelings. Love or not.
> 
> With Naruto in some serious danger, I think the next couple of chapters could be telling of the standings of NH and NS.


Since i disagree about Sakura having romantic feelings toward Naruto il ask this:
For the sake of discussion if Sakura  got more than Nakama feelings for Naruto or an important team 7 member if you like why in many occasions   she never jumped to rescue Naruto and show the romantic hints like she did tons of times for Sasuke  ?


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> Since i disagree about Sakura having romantic feelings toward Naruto il ask this:
> For the sake of discussion if Sakura  got more than Nakama feelings for Naruto or an important team 7 member if you like why in many occasions   she never jumped to rescue Naruto and show the romantic hints like she did tons of times for Sasuke  ?



First I'd like to clarify that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous and I don't feel like there's enough evidence to say that they are romantic yet.

However, she did attempt to rescue Naruto back on the Heaven and Earth bridge despite failing miserably. Plus she was hysterical during the Gaara rescue arc. I'm trying to think of occasions where she had the opportunity to jump in and rescue Naruto but didn't....If you could point one out to me that would be helpful.

As I said to some other posters I think Naruto's life being in serious danger could be telling of her current feelings (and possibly Hinata's too) but we'll have to wait and see.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 14, 2014)

Kage said:


> It seems Sasusaku's fate is determined less by it's..._"development"_ and more on whether or not Naruto will finally shake off his pesky feelings for Sakura to live happily ever after with Hinata. For _some_ reason Naruhina ensures SasuSaku. With that in mind it's no wonder the earnestness of Naruto's feelings for Sakura (and on occasion, hers for him) are often belittled.
> 
> Sakura isn't in love with Naruto but being "disgusted" by the idea of a romantic relationship with him, who she may not be attracted to but has been nothing but a loyal, caring and dependable friend, says more about the kind of romantic feelings you _shouldn't_ be taking seriously. Like say, the _lack_ of disgust by the idea of a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't care about how many people he has to hurt to achieve his dubious goals.



B-But...redemption....



			
				BankaiLegend said:
			
		

> At WORST Sakura and Naruto's relationship mirrors Ichigo and Rukia, i.e, they're not lovers, but they sure as hell aren't friends either.



It doesn't in the slightest. Naruto and Sakura's relationship is an absolute joke in comparison.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> First I'd like to clarify that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous and I don't feel like there's enough evidence to say that they are romantic yet.
> 
> However, she did attempt to rescue Naruto back on the Heaven and Earth bridge despite failing miserably. Plus she was hysterical during the Gaara rescue arc. I'm trying to think of occasions where she had the opportunity to jump in and rescue Naruto but didn't....If you could point one out to me that would be helpful.
> 
> As I said to some other posters I think Naruto's life being in serious danger could be telling of her current feelings (and possibly Hinata's too) but we'll have to wait and see.


Mainly vs the Akatsuki members and now more recently vs  Obito she doesn't  seem to ready to put herself in danger unless its somehow Sasuke involved,sure there is no doubt  that she cares for him and that naruto is an important part of her life but the way i see it her worrying about  Naruto's life looks the same as she did after Naruto and Sasuke fight and like you mentioned the heaven and earth bridge.
Actually Heaven and Earth is the only one i could see  her genuinely  trying to jump in even if its danger  but even then, wasn't that more of payback for what Naruto  done for her so many times?


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

Lol, Naruto and Sakura would make a great friends with benefits relationship. They're not lovers and not completely friends. They're in between. I don't know why, but I can totally see that happening.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> Mainly vs the Akatsuki members and now more recently vs  Obito she doesn't  seem to ready to put herself in danger unless its somehow Sasuke involved,sure there is no doubt  that she cares for him and that naruto is an important part of her life but the way i see it her worrying about  Naruto's life looks the same as she did after Naruto and Sasuke fight and like you mentioned the heaven and earth bridge.
> Actually Heaven and Earth is the only one i could see  her genuinely  trying to jump in even if its danger  but even then, wasn't that more of payback for what Naruto  done for her so many times?




No, that incident with the Heaven & Earth bridge was because she genuinely cared about his well-being. That wasn't the Naruto that she knew and ran at him because she wanted him to return to his old self again. 

It wasn't because she wanted to pay him back. I don't know where you got that from.

On top of that, you can't always say that Sakura is willing to jump in for Sasuke when she was willing to attack Sasuke during the first reunion.


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## PAWS (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Lol, Naruto and Sakura would make a great friends with benefits relationship. They're not lovers and not completely friends. They're in between. I don't know why, but I can totally see that happening.



I dont, their relationship it too developed to put it at that level. I dont think they could use each other in that way.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

Kage said:


> It seems Sasusaku's fate is determined less by it's..._"development"_ and more on whether or not Naruto will finally shake off his pesky feelings for Sakura to live happily ever after with Hinata. For _some_ reason Naruhina ensures SasuSaku. With that in mind it's no wonder the earnestness of Naruto's feelings for Sakura (and on occasion, hers for him) are often belittled.
> 
> Sakura isn't in love with Naruto but being "disgusted" by the idea of a romantic relationship with him, who she may not be attracted to but has been nothing but a loyal, caring and dependable friend, says more about the kind of romantic feelings you _shouldn't_ be taking seriously. Like say, the _lack_ of disgust by the idea of a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't care about how many people he has to hurt to achieve his dubious goals.



That's funny. It's one of the reasons why I never understood why people liked both of those pairings, when one pairing has everything wrong with it. NH and SS are a contradiction to each other. As a matter of fact, hating NS and liking SS is a contradiction.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> Mainly vs the Akatsuki members and now more recently vs  Obito she doesn't  seem to ready to put herself in danger unless its somehow Sasuke involved,sure there is no doubt  that she cares for him and that naruto is an important part of her life but the way i see it her worrying about  Naruto's life looks the same as she did after Naruto and Sasuke fight and like you mentioned the heaven and earth bridge.



He wasn't always in serious danger like he was at Heaven/Earth. Naruto vs. Pein I realize now works as an example for that. Although I could cop out and call PNJ and say it was important for Hinata's development. I don't think Sakura has to jump in every time to prove her feelings for him and like I said she's still in love with Sasuke



LivingHitokiri said:


> Actually Heaven and Earth is the only one i could see  her genuinely  trying to jump in even if its danger  but even then, wasn't that more of payback for what Naruto  done for her so many times?



I guess I'll have to leave that as your interpretation.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> No, that incident with the Heaven & Earth bridge was because she genuinely cared about his well-being. That wasn't the Naruto that she knew and ran at him because she wanted him to return to his old self again.
> 
> It wasn't because she wanted to pay him back. I don't know where you got that from.


Sakura always felt guilty on how Naruto is always doing everything and many times dying in order to bring Sasuke  back or even protect her while she is helpless  and crying while depending on him, hence   maybe that reckless move by her was to show her resolve ?



> On top of that, you can't always say that Sakura is willing to jump in  for Sasuke when she was willing to attack Sasuke during the first  reunion.


It was still for the Sake of Sasuke tho, thats what i mean , even tho Obito almost killed Naruto  before Neji and Hinata jumped while she didn't use he powers to stop the attack or protect him. She just uses couple chapters later when the team 7 is reunited which makes me question Kishis writing abilities ....






Lace said:


> He wasn't always in serious danger like he was at  Heaven/Earth. Naruto vs. Pein I realize now works as an example for  that. Although I could cop out and call PNJ and say it was important for  Hinata's development. I don't think Sakura has to jump in every time to  prove her feelings for him and like I said she's still in love with  Sasuke
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'll have to leave that as your interpretation.


I guess her suicidal  emotions come up only when Sasuke is involved 
Will just leave it at that , its reasonable enough.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> I guess her suicidal  emotions come up only when Sasuke is involved
> Will just leave it at that , its reasonable enough.



Probably not the best example but land of waves arc Sakura wasn't going suicidal to protect Sasuke. We also have to realize that Sasuke was already falling into darkness during the times she stepped in.

I don't really think Sakura not going suicidal for Naruto is a good argument though, different circumstances and jumping in to protect someone isn't a good indicator of romantic feelings either. Just look at Neji. He wasn't in love with Hinata.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> Probably not the best example but land of waves arc Sakura wasn't going suicidal to protect Sasuke. We also have to realize that Sasuke was already falling into darkness during the times she stepped in.
> 
> I don't really think Sakura not going suicidal for Naruto is a good argument though, different circumstances and jumping in to protect someone isn't a good indicator of romantic feelings either. Just look at Neji. He wasn't in love with Hinata.


I was just joking around my second part of the comment referents to my interpretation .

I was trying in general to assume how Sakuras feelings for Naruto would be more visible hinted or show, thats all, was curious.


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## Lady Hinata (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> That's the point I've been trying to argue. It doesn't matter if Naruto poked fun at Sakura beforehand or not. If Sakura does something destructive, it strikes fear into Naruto and he is reminded, "don't mess with this chick". That's why I gave reference to your first example. In that example, Naruto had just come back from three years of training and I highly doubt he had any time to poke fun at Sakura's strength or anything like that, yet he was still fearful when he witnessed the wrath of Sakura. Even though it had been a couple years since he might of teased Sakura or said something to her, he was _still_ afraid and stated the _same_ thing.
> 
> The fact that he might of been teasing her or not is irrelevant. Even if Naruto wasn't teasing, he would be afraid because he still knows not to "mess with this chick".
> 
> ...



I'm going to give a reference stated by Jiraiya which I thought would be a good example to give before stating what I think.



> "Getting dumped always makes a man stronger.* And if he hasn’t experienced it enough to be able to laugh and joke about it*, or at least use it as material, he can’t fulfill his duties as a man."



Naruto has been rejected by Sakura many times. You don't think he'd joke about his feelings, but I don't think that's true. As you've said before, it's _Naruto's_ feelings. He can deal with them how he will and if he thinks making a little joke about it makes him feel better, then so be it. 

Like Jiraiya, just because he acted funny around Tsunade, did that make his feelings any less serious for her? Now, I believe that 631 was a joke and 632 references that. I also have my own stances on the pairings as a whole. _But_, because everything is still pretty much ambiguous for the most part, one can _still_ make the argument that just because it was a joke on Naruto's part, that it _doesn't_ mean Naruto doesn't feel anything for Sakura still. 

Personally, I think it would make more sense to argue that 631 was a joke and that's what he was talking about in 632 instead of saying that he just says this because he already knows not to mess with her and her power reminds him. Naruto has been shown to like poking fun at her, but when she shows him her power, he is then again reminded "don't mess with Sakura." 

That's all just part of the formula. As for Sakura's end, one might be able to  argue what you've stated before; that just because Sakura got angry at him for the GF comment, it doesn't mean the anger was directed around the _thought_ of being his girlfriend, but because he lied to his dad about it. Now, I have a different stance on it completely, but I digress. 

If _you_ think Sakura may have some feelings for Naruto, then maybe it's not much of a stretch on your end to believe that she could just as easily have been angry about his lies about being his girlfriend and not necessarily about being disgusted by the thought alone. I just do not think it works to say that 632 was a reference of past times he has joked with her, when he hasn't joked around with her in many chapters, whether weeks or months, he still hasn't, so it would seem as though he _had_ already learned his lesson up to that point...unless 631 was him joking around once more to which 632 reminds him not to do it again.

All this being said, we do not know which side is truly correct until Kishi shows us. I really believe NaruHina has a very good chance and I also do believe that if the "love two at once" can apply to Sakura, than I see no reason why it cannot equally apply to Naruto. That is, Naruto still has feelings for Sakura, but he can also be seen as possibly starting to view Hinata in a new light as well. 

 Eh, I was trying to look at this from a more unbiased point of view, and I hope I made some sort of sense. Either side at this point could be right or wrong, so I think to some extent, maybe we should all try to see the others side before arguing our own?

In any case, this is all just my take on it. Feel free to disagree if you will.


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## Kage (Jan 14, 2014)

Lace said:


> It would be really sad to see NH ensuring SS as SS is a cesspool of negativity.


Couldn't agree more. It's basically the polar opposite of what NH represents which, while bland and unconvincing, is at least positive.



Lace said:


> The comments by other characters are probably the strongest indication that Sakura feels something towards Naruto that isn't just camaraderie. It also seems stupid to have these characters be cut off unless they were going to say something significant about Sakura's feelings. Love or not.
> 
> With Naruto in some serious danger, I think the next couple of chapters could be telling of the standings of NH and NS.



Well her confession pretty much shat on all that as far as I'm concerned. In it she seems to be aware of what makes Naruto a desirable individual to anyone with relatively sane expectations for romance but she was not sincere about how that affected her own feelings for him.

The fact that she knows but it is unable to sway her heart is pretty damning. That said I feel it's less about her falling in love with Naruto and more about deciding she should _probably_ get higher standards than "He has never shown a particular interest in me, was willing to _kill me_ and everyone I care about but I can't help myself because he's so BrOkEn and HOTT" plus I just have to wait until he's redeemed to make this seem less horrendous tee hee

To this day her initial attraction to Sasuke and her love for him during the majority of the series aren't explained in any way aside from the superficial.

I hardly consider being _the flawed teammate that she often worried about who eventually learned to give a shit about her as well~_ tru luv development either because in that case she'd be madly in love with Naruto too but alas! The difference here is more or less physical attraction. 

*tl;dr:* I don't really have faith in Kishi's ability to make her grow up some more.



LadyofHubris said:


> That's funny. It's one of the reasons why I never understood why people liked both of those pairings, when one pairing has everything wrong with it. NH and SS are a contradiction to each other. As a matter of fact, hating NS and liking SS is a contradiction.



Preference is preference. It's just a different matter entirely when letting such preference completely destroy any credibility. It's almost like admitting that a preferred pairing is objectively worse than one you dislike is painful or something.


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## Lace (Jan 14, 2014)

Kage said:


> Well her confession pretty much shat on all that as far as I'm concerned. In it she seems to be aware of what makes Naruto a desirable individual to anyone with relatively sane expectations for romance but she was not sincere about how that affected her own feelings for him.
> 
> The fact that she knows but it is unable to sway her heart is pretty damning. That said I feel it's less about her falling in love with Naruto and more about deciding she should _probably_ get higher standards than "He has never shown a particular interest in me, was willing to _kill me_ and everyone I care about but I can't help myself because he's so BrOkEn and HOTT" plus I just have to wait until he's redeemed to make this seem less horrendous tee hee
> 
> ...



I certainly agree that the failfession was shit and is one of the biggest obstacles NS has to overcome. I don't have high hopes that this will ever be fully resolved (and if it is it's not going to be written well) because Kishi....in the hands of someone more competent..... : / 

Sakura's continuing "love" for Sasuke despite all the terrible things he's put her through is the absolute worst part of her character. I'm really hoping that when the Sasuke shit comes up we will finally see her make progress but once again....Kishi : /

I've been feeling pretty negative towards Naruto pairings lately. Despite still favoring NS. I'm trying to reserve my judgement until the Sasuke arc rolls around but I'm not optimistic.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

I agree with both of you, Lace and Kage. It's obvious that Kishimoto doesn't know how to handle women characters and their emotions. People have always accused him of being sexist, but I wouldn't say it's that. I assume he thinks that women are emotionally weak.

No normal girl would still love a guy like Sakura loves Sasuke. That's just illogical and cringe-worthy, at worst.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry, late reply, but even so, I'm still hearing, and not necessarily from any person on this thread, that the handhold was strictly chakra transfer...
So why were they holding hands on the cover, but not cloaked in chakra?
Ok.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Sorry, late reply, but even so, I'm still hearing, and not necessarily from any person on this thread, that the handhold was strictly chakra transfer...
> So why were they holding hands on the cover, but not cloaked in chakra?
> Ok.



Okay, it's on the cover. And? 

When you look at the context of the cover, it doesn't suggest anything romantic. Naruto and Hinata aren't even looking at each other; they're looking at Neji. The symbolism there is comrades coming together: 'Naruto's life isn't his own anymore'. 

Also, Ironically, the name of that chapter for the hand incident is called connected. So, it would be suitable for them to be holding hands anyway because it embodies the notion that their lives are connected because they are comrades willing to die for each other. The content of the chapter speaks on this.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

The reason Neji is in the background floating is because his sacrifice will live on and help push them forward. Not make them sad. Though it's not exactly romantic context, it's a bit more than camaraderie.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Okay, it's on the cover. And?


The cover of each volume covers the major events  for the chapters . Neji in this cover is symbolized as free bird that bonds the lives of his comrades  that are in the background. Naruto and Hinata are shown to hold hands without any chakra  transfer like the ones in the background, it pretty much separates  it from the guys in the background.
If it was the same Kishi would simply put Naruto and Hinata in front and his compared right behind him and all of them engulfed in Kyuubi chakra .




> When you look at the context of the cover, it doesn't suggest anything romantic. Naruto and Hinata aren't even looking at each other; they're looking at Neji. The symbolism there is comrades coming together: 'Naruto's life isn't his own anymore'.
> 
> Also, Ironically, the name of that chapter for the hand incident is called connected. So, it would be suitable for them to be holding hands anyway because it embodies the notion that their lives are connected because they are comrades willing to die for each other. The content of the chapter speaks on this.


It can be easily taken as romantic , they both hold hands and they indeed look at eachother ,they heads and eyes meet and not even close to see neji in the background.Like i have said before there is a reason why he separates Naruto and Hinata with the one sin the background .
The chapters name actually means bonds  if im not mistaken  , these bonds can represent many things from romantic to friend bonds ,comrades etc... So saying that  the chapter or the cover doesn't imply anything romantic is wrong, as its wrong to say thats pure romantic  when its both.
You cannot claim he did it simply for chakra transfer when have seen that Naruto could transfer his chakra with a simple hi five ,Kishimoto  empathizes the hand holding couple of times even after this chapter proving pretty much that it was  something about Naruto's and Hinata's bond .


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## Rinoa (Jan 14, 2014)

I wanted to ask you to stop the posts about x pairing should/can not be debated by pairing x and vice versa ... and oh how sad is that ... this is not an argument or an aspect of the manga, but only directed to people.
Again, remember that this thread is for pairings being debated according to the arguments based on the manga, not to question about the preferences of people, much less who can or can not discuss each pairing, or subtle or not so subtle accusations of x or y pairing places its faith in x or y pairing.
In summarizing this thread is to discuss the pairings not to make subtle accusations, judgment and pointing fingers that can be considered baitish and are totally unnecessary.
If you want to keep such observations lead it to PM or VM or the FCs.
Once by accident, no big deal, but this has already been brought in the archived thread, and returned to be brought here the same type of observations that have nothing to do with the pairings and their likelihood of becoming canon but only with assumptions about the debaters.

Each one of you can and should discuss the pairings you want ( among the 3 pairings) since it complies with the rules and directed to the arguments and manga facts freely.

Thank you and have a good debate.


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## PAWS (Jan 14, 2014)

At this point in the manga, Narusaku has the best chance of becoming canon. 

- First of, Sakura has already been shown to not trust Sasuke anymore, what exactly do you think that means?
Also throughout this war she has only shown worry for Naruto.

- Nowhere has it been stated Naruto no longer loves Sakura. He still does, and kishi obviously put in the girlfriend comment for a reason.

-Naruto has not been shown to have grown romantic feeling for Hinata, unless you have a scan that proves this?

Narusaku has always had Naruto done, now its only waiting for Sakura who is shown to be coming around.


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## Rinoa (Jan 14, 2014)

The rules are made ​​since the section was filed and were reviewed by the section mods before being posted and haven't changed since then, except the warning that Kenneth did in the second post after the thread has been closed due to drama installed and the fact that there's not more warnings in this thread and we'd start giving direct bans, something that was discussed between the moderation.

I will not derail the thread with this topic again if you have something to say PM me and Kenneth.
I'll answer to you by PM.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

PAWS said:


> At this point in the manga, Narusaku has the best chance of becoming canon.


interesting opinion,but no.




> - First of, Sakura has already been shown to not trust Sasuke anymore, what exactly do you think that means?
> Also throughout this war she has only shown worry for Naruto.


yet she was extremely  happy  when he saved her, to the point ignoring that naruto saved her as well.
Sakura also shows worried about Shikamaru, that makes her in love with him ?





> - Nowhere has it been stated Naruto no longer loves Sakura. He still does, and kishi obviously put in the girlfriend comment for a reason.


Naruto haven't reaffirmed his feelings for Sakura for a long time,but it did for Sakura, plenty of times.
Yes the reason as it was explained plenty of times shouldn't be taken as serious as it happen plenty times in the past where Naruto teased Sakura.





> -Naruto has not been shown to have grown romantic feeling for Hinata, unless you have a scan that proves this?


Neither Sakura has shown any evidential romantic  feeling for Naruto but only towards Sasuke.
The rest of the evidence can be only assumed from the hits and from each individual interpenetration of the manga, or, the mangaka leaves  some hints for the fans figure them out themselves. 







> Narusaku has always had Naruto done, now its only waiting for Sakura who is shown to be coming around.


The Same is for NaruHina, it always had Hinata done and now its only waiting for Naruto to return these feelings as well.


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## PAWS (Jan 14, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> interesting opinion,but no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- Um she was surprised that he saved her because before that he had tried to her kill her twice, Sasuke arrived there before Naruto so its obvious she will say his name first. And you obviously didnt read the chapter right as she joked with both saying she was going to be Hokage if they didnt stop fighting. 

- She was worried for shikamaru because he is a friend, but also Naruto needed him, she was also worried that Naruto was helping Shikamaru stay alive and told him she would take care of him. 

- Sorry unless its been stated he does not love her anymore it doesnt matter if he hasnt reaffirmed it. He has teased her about her super human strenght, never about his feelings. 

- Again Sakura has shown to stop trusting Sasuke, what do you think will happen after that? Plus certain characters had thrown in hints as to how Sakura really feels about Naruto.

- But you misunderstand, nowhere in the manga suggests that Naruto has ever thought of Hinata in that way. So its different, Sakura is coming around but nothing in Naruhina is changing.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

how the fuck are they even looking at Neji? He's behind them? Naruto is looking directly at Hinata, while Hinata is looking down as she is still shaken up. That's NOT too hard to see.


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## PAWS (Jan 14, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> how the fuck are they even looking at Neji? He's behind them? Naruto is looking directly at Hinata, while Hinata is looking down as she is still shaken up. That's not too hard see.



Yeah no, look at Naruto's eyes they are looking back. Why dont you try and do what Naruto is doing and see what you look at. That volume is about Neji dying, its about NEJI, not Naruhina holding hands.....


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## Kurama (Jan 14, 2014)

PAWS said:


> At this point in the manga, Narusaku has the best chance of becoming canon.



It really doesn't.



> - First of, Sakura has already been shown to not trust Sasuke anymore, what exactly do you think that means?



It means she's wary of his motives, considering last time she saw him he was trying to take her head off, but as shown in 540, she loves him no less and in this particular moment Kishi was teasing his lingering darkness in watching Juubi burn which conflicted with Naruto's intentions, an action rendered moot upon Naruto's revelation that he befriended the Bijuu. It certainly has no bearing on her regard for Naruto romantically



> Also throughout this war she has only shown worry for Naruto.



She showed worry for that Zetsu clone couple and Shikamaru as well, it means nothing. Also, Naruto showed worry for Hinata upon joining her family in protecting him, but somehow it means nothing this time.



> - Nowhere has it been stated Naruto no longer loves Sakura.



There's no need to state such a thing when Naruto's never declared himself to be in love with her to begin with. "Interested in" and "like" have been used to describe Naruto->Sakura, never "love". And that's not even getting into all the evidence Kishi throws in exemplifying Naruto's lack of actual interest in romance. He admits to Jiraiya he doesn't understand this interest in women during his Rasengan training [whoops, that's after the Gaara fight, so much for Gamakichi's pinky finger] and hilariously enough during Sakura's explanation of the chakra network during Hinata vs Neji Naruto side notes questioning the idea of Sakura being a "beautiful young girl". Kishi likely threw that one in for lulz but its still pretty damning to an already lackluster effort in portraying romantic interest especially in an arc where its competition receive defining moments [CS Hug and Proud Failure Speech].



> He still does,



He might at best still have a lingering attraction, but its pretty clear he has no intent to pursue.



> and kishi obviously put in the girlfriend comment for a reason.



For the lulz of the typical bokke-tsukkomi routine and to actually throw the MinaKushi parallel under a bus by acknowledging Sakura and Kushina's sole similarity then proceeding to compare Kushina to Naruto for everything else, not to mention his unease with Sakura's treatment of her son with no implication that it was representative of his own relationship with Kushina, to suggest as such is pulling stuff out of thin air.



> -Naruto has not been shown to have grown romantic feeling for Hinata, unless you have a scan that proves this?



Not concretely, but what he has shown is a clear positive reception to her affections sand an increased fondness and adoration for her as a result of her actions towards him which she directly takes note of as a sign that he is possibly open to her pursuit, which she is fully intent on once they make it through the war.



> Narusaku has always had Naruto done, now its only waiting for Sakura who is shown to be coming around.



NaruSaku needs Naruto to clearly and seriously at the least give thoughts towards the intent to pursuit Sakura, he hasn't done such since CHAPTER 3. As for Sakura, it seems she can't spell it out clear enough to you that Naruto simply does not exist in her romantic thought.


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> how the fuck are they even looking at Neji? He's behind them? Naruto is looking directly at Hinata, while Hinata is looking down as she is still shaken up. That's not too hard to see.




Anyways, No, Naruto and Hinata are not looking at each other. They are looking behind them. 

Ever heard of looking over your shoulder? I guess you haven't.


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## ch1p (Jan 14, 2014)

The volume cover isn't the only time the handhold is depicted. Chapter 633 has Naruto and Hinata looking at each other, Naruto smiling while squeezing her hand as well.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The volume cover isn't the only time the handhold is depicted. Chapter 633 has Naruto and Hinata looking at each other, Naruto smiling while squeezing her hand as well.



 Thank you. And I do recall Neji was in front of them in the chapter, while he was behind them on the cover. It shows them moving past the struggles and strife and moving forward.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

It wasn't bait. I was being sarcastic yes, but I was answering with reasoning.
ANYWAY....


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## Sizume (Jan 14, 2014)

You are /_implying_/ that the person you are arguing with possesses lesser intelligence than you. You _/implied/ _that the concept was hard to grasp by said person, baiting them.

Boop.


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## Lady Hinata (Jan 14, 2014)

This is off topic. If you have a problem with the posts and think they go against the rules, report it and move on. I know I'm not a mod, but we've been told this before guys.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm _IMPLYING_ that it's easy to see
I'm _IMPLYING_ that they're facing forward, heads only cocked slightly as to look at each other.
Don't tell me what I meant please. I know what I meant.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

PAWS said:


> - Um she was surprised that he saved her because before that he had tried to her kill her twice, Sasuke arrived there before Naruto so its obvious she will say his name first. And you obviously didnt read the chapter right as she joked with both saying she was going to be Hokage if they didnt stop fighting.


it doesn't matter, i was merely following your logic and taking direct manga points which show that Sakura indeed called him ( with a small blush on her face)  and  both Naruto and Sasuke attacked and arrived at the same time.
It got nothing to do with joking about Hokage.




> - She was worried for shikamaru because he is a friend, but also Naruto needed him, she was also worried that Naruto was helping Shikamaru stay alive and told him she would take care of him.


No, she was worried for Shikamaru in the same way she is worried for Naruto and Hinata whey they almost died
Naruto needed everyone then, Sakura was worried for him before Ino connected their thoughts together.





> - Sorry unless its been stated he does not love her anymore it doesnt matter if he hasnt reaffirmed it. He has teased her about her super human strenght, never about his feelings.


It doesn't work like that,in the past he used to reaffirm his feelings for quite often  but after the confession he never mentioned his feeling for her,he doesn't need to say he doesn't love her anymore as he can simply move on and never bother with Sakura romantically.
No, he is afraid of her super human strength  because he might actually die from it,he teased her in many ways but not about her strength,the girlfriend part included, but, lets agree to disagree on this part and simply move on 





> - Again Sakura has shown to stop trusting Sasuke, what do you think will happen after that? Plus certain characters had thrown in hints as to how Sakura really feels about Naruto.


She never stopped trusting Sasuke, otherwise she wouldn't so far for him,like the same as Naruto never stopped trusting  in Sasuke.
Hints is like ive said the ways you and me interpreter about different events that happen in manga, these hints are no clear as you try to make em sound. 






> - But you misunderstand, nowhere in the manga suggests that Naruto has ever thought of Hinata in that way. So its different, Sakura is coming around but nothing in Naruhina is changing.


Again, nowhere in manga suggest  that Sakura sees Naruto romantically or coming around as you claim , how can you even say that when she is all happy mighty about Sasuke ?


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 14, 2014)

If it makes you feel any better, I apologize if it made you feel like I was insulting you or anyone else, ok? Sincerely.


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## LivingHitokiri (Jan 14, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Yeah no, look at Naruto's eyes they are looking back. Why dont you try and do what Naruto is doing and see what you look at. That volume is about Neji dying, its about NEJI, not Naruhina holding hands.....





LadyofHubris said:


> Using that bait and snark technique just makes you look bad. The last part is unnecessary. Anyways, No, Naruto and Hinata are not looking at each other. They are looking behind them.
> 
> Ever heard of looking over your shoulder? I guess you haven't.


Im gonna reply to both at the same time.
Apparently nobody is reading my posts from before where i clearly explain the meaning of the volume cover.
They are looking at each other, its not about speculation   or biased opinion its indeed a fact,because if you apply simple  human anatomy and field of view logic you can clearly see what im talking about


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## Naiki (Jan 14, 2014)

^ Sure, but you don't need to use language like. "_how hard is that to understand?_"

When someone doesn't get your point or interpret something the same way you do, you don't lower yourself to belittling them like they are retarded, because they're not. Not everyone is going to see things the way that you see them. 

I find that the majority of people on this thread do that, and it's getting to the point where it's discouraging to even post. 

Anyway, I'm out. It's pointless to continue with this and wind up getting into unnecessary trouble.

I have tried to respect the moderator's wishes, given that  has emailed me about how people are rude and I understand that, but I'm not going to get into trouble over something foolish.


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## Rinoa (Jan 14, 2014)

Lady Hinata said:


> This is off topic. If you have a problem with the posts and think they go against the rules, report it and move on. I know I'm not a mod, but we've been told this before guys.


This again.

There is a report button, report the post if breaking rules and is off topic, and one of the mods will crash to check.



Kenneth said:


> Hey, unrustle those jimmies. If you're going to be throwing more snark and bait than anything else in your posts, it's time to leave this alone for a while.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jan 14, 2014)

It is pretty obvious Naruto meant what he said in chapter 631 how he claim Sakura is in his eyes.

The question was not if he loves her (he already does), but if she is his girlfriend!

That was why he responded "more and less it" to his father and despite the comedic reaction from Sakura, Minato still found the need to compare her with his wife.

They are not in a romantic relationship obviously, but Naruto's answer shows he still wants Sakura or at least flirt with the idea that they may become closer.

Naruto does not joke about feelings since this would make him hypocritical from what he told Sakura during her fake confession that it is not something to joke about.

Plus, Naruto was slightly jelly when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her in chapter 632 that he wanted to remind her that he helped, as well.  If he were really joking, he would not have brought that up (it was a reference of Sakura when she first revealed her super human strength near the beginning of part 2).


Not saying NS is endgame, just that Naruto meant what he said and is not the type of person to joke about his feelings especially with his reaction in 632 and Hinata being within earshot (that would be bad taste if that were the case).


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## PAWS (Jan 15, 2014)

LivingHitokiri said:


> it doesn't matter, i was merely following your logic and taking direct manga points which show that Sakura indeed called him ( with a small blush on her face)  and  both Naruto and Sasuke attacked and arrived at the same time.
> It got nothing to do with joking about Hokage.



No


*Spoiler*: __ 









Its quite obivous Sasuke arrives before Naruto and thats why she says his name first. 



> No, she was worried for Shikamaru in the same way she is worried for Naruto and Hinata whey they almost died
> Naruto needed everyone then, Sakura was worried for him before Ino connected their thoughts together.



Good I am glad we agree she was worried about Naruto, and has yet to show any worry for Sasuke.



> It doesn't work like that,in the past he used to reaffirm his feelings for quite often but after the confession he never mentioned his feeling for her,he doesn't need to say he doesn't love her anymore as he can simply move on and never bother with Sakura romantically.
> No, he is afraid of her super human strength because he might actually die from it,he teased her in many ways but not about her strength,the girlfriend part included, but, lets agree to disagree on this part and simply move on



No it does work like that but you just dont want to admit it. But fine agree to disagree. 



> She never stopped trusting Sasuke, otherwise she wouldn't so far for him,like the same as Naruto never stopped trusting in Sasuke.
> Hints is like ive said the ways you and me interpreter about different events that happen in manga, these hints are no clear as you try to make em sound.
> 
> Again, nowhere in manga suggest that Sakura sees Naruto romantically or coming around as you claim , how can you even say that when she is all happy mighty about Sasuke ?



Please, she is not happy mighty about Sasuke

*Spoiler*: __ 









It is quite obvious from her facial expression she does not trust him, then add the conversation with Sai.


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## rocci (Jan 15, 2014)

i think kishi intend to solve this love triangle in the next arc, when sakura take decision.


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## SoulFire (Jan 16, 2014)

Now that the thread has cooled down, I'll get back with you* Lady of H! *(hard to keep up on work days when the thread is on fire!) 



> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > Same here, but I doubt it. I'm starting to be reminded of why I left this place in the first place. These people are demons, fighting for their fandoms to the death.
> ...


----------



## Naiki (Jan 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Now that the thread has cooled down, I'll get back with you* Lady of H! *(hard to keep up on work days when the thread is on fire!)




Great! I enjoy debating with you, SoulFire, because you know how to still be friendly and argue your point at the same time. 




> Trick is not to let folks get to you and try to treat everyone the way you want to be treated, however they behave.




I agree. I guess I gave to work on keeping my temper when people come off the wrong way. I do have a bad temper when someone makes me mad, lol. 




> Hinata has said that she wants to be by his side _always_--she really has said nothing about _fighting_ next to him, though that could be included within the context. She is in love with him, thus she wants to be with him forever, whether it be fighting, grieving, loving or laughing at his side. She desires to share her life with him, not just be his 'battle buddy' or number one fan.




I can agree with this. One point for you, lol. 



> It has always been pretty obvious just whom Sakura loves and in which way. Hinata has no worries there.




Yes, which is probably why the people that know Sakura reacted the way that they did and the people that probably didn't know Sakura reacted that way.




> Blushes can indicate various things in manga: Love, embarrassment, surprise, excitement, shock...in this case I think surprise and shock fill the bill, including Kakashi. Yeah, he has seen Sakura 'poundcake' (love that term, btw ) Naruto plenty of times, but she doesn't usually give him a spontaneous hug directly afterwards.




I can agree with the blushing because I have seen characters blush when there was nothing romantic about the context, so that might be the case. Still, in the back of my mind, I think those blushes indicate shock as well as a bit of love. 

Yeah, I love that term too. I always wondered why they named the poundcake 'poundcake'. Were they beating people up while baking? I have no idea, lol. 





> Sasuke may look dazed, but he does not look at all repulsed by or rejecting of Sakura's attention. He is accepting it. Actually, as I view it Naruto realizes that Sasuke is reacting to Sakura's hug and pulls the curtain to leave them alone. Thus Tsunade notes that he has a sensitive side in being considerate of their feelings.




Hm, Sasuke doesn't look repulsed either, but I don't see an expression on his face that says that he welcomes it. It looks to me like he is looking at her and thinking, '_Oh, it's Sakura_'.  I sincerely don't think he cares at all during that moment. As a matter of fact, I interpret this scene as the opposite. I don't think Naruto's _just _ reacting to Sasuke's face as a whole, but the entire picture of what he's seeing. He sees Sakura illustrating her love and care for Sasuke in such a dramatic way and the only thing that Sasuke does is apathetically stare back at her; no emotions, no reassurance that he's fine or anything. 

As for Tsunade, I think she was referring to Naruto's sensitivity when it comes to Sakura's feelings. She is the one that is in need of alone time with the person she loves, not Sasuke, who actually isn't showing _any_ type of affection. Sakura's the one that needs the time alone to bask in the relief and comfort knowing that Sasuke is alright. 




> Naruto understands because he relates his crush to Sakura's situation: Caring about some one who is unattainable (in his case, because Sakura loves another/ in Sakura's case, loving someone who has decided to leave his bonds behind).




Exactly!   And this understanding connects to one of the reasons why he gave the PoaL several chapters later. 




> Naruto was considerate of both his team mates: He wants happiness for both of them--and for himself, in the long run. He knew that retrieving Sasuke would make her happy, but he was doing it primarily for his own happiness and need to save his friend. Which is why the PoaL does not carry the pairing significance it was given (as Naruto explained during the Iron Country confession). The fact that he did pull away from pursuit of Sakura while her feelings have remained with Sasuke says something about the difference in relationships: Naruto stepped away from a crush while Sakura's love remains strong.




That's true, Naruto does want happiness for both of his team mates. I know that Naruto sought after Sasuke primarily for himself and because Sasuke was his first bond, but he also did it because he made a promise to Sakura and his understanding of her. Even though he was seeking out Sasuke primarily for himself, but his understanding of Sakura is another reason why. 

That's why Naruto told Sakura that it didn't matter if there was a promise between them anymore because Naruto was pursuing Sasuke primarily for himself. Naruto's promise to Sakura was secondary to him. I don't think that the promise doesn't carry pairing significance, but I think it dulls in significance when it comes to Naruto's first bond and his friend. In my opinion, I think Naruto's bond with Sasuke is way stronger than his crush/love for Sakura. I don't blame him because he was alone his entire life, so it's expected. 

Well, I don't think that Naruto has stepped away from his crush completely, given the context of the girlfriend comment, but I think he acknowledges that his feelings are reciprocated. 




> The forlorn look while healing Hinata is for the shape that Hinata is in--how she has all but sacrificed herself for the one she loves.




I can agree with this. 



> As I said above: Shock and surprise. And folks were already blushing with excitement before Sakura appeared.




I didn't see any blushes on anyone's face when she was showing up. 




> Sakura purposely brought the entourage who observed the confession, so she shouldn't feel all that uncomfortable about it. I doubt that she would have brought an audience had she really had a love confession in mind. She thought up the confession solution on the fly and just couldn't bring herself to execute it convincingly (as the reactions of everyone makes clear).


 

That is true, but the thing that's confusing me is that her expression looks rather genuine as she is listing all of the reasons why she loves him. Then, there was Kishimoto's words about the confession itself that made it more confusing, but I'm just going to wait and see what happens.




> We know that she cares deeply for Naruto. She _does_ love him, however, she is not _in love_ with him. That is the catch.




She does, but we don't know what type of love she feels. The fact that she does care deeply is unquestionable, but her feelings remain ambiguous at this point. I think we might find our answer in the upcoming arc. 




> Heck, that was so long ago, I don't recall, myself!




Me neither. Oh well, that's a lose!


----------



## SoulFire (Jan 16, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > Great! I enjoy debating with you, SoulFire, because you know how to still be friendly and argue your point at the same time.
> ...


----------



## Young Lord Minato (Jan 17, 2014)

A thought came to me today; what if both Naruhina and Narusaku came true? Bear with me; right now, Naruto's life is hanging in the balance due to having Kurama extracted, right? When that hppened to Gaara, it took Chityo giving her life to save him. So, what if Sakura did the same thing for Naruto? And as she does, she admits her true feelings for him and dies with a smile on her face. Then afterwards, Naruto gets with Hinata. Everybdy  wins


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## sakuraboobs (Jan 17, 2014)

Young Lord Minato said:


> A thought came to me today; what if both Naruhina and Narusaku came true? Bear with me; right now, Naruto's life is hanging in the balance due to having Kurama extracted, right? When that hppened to Gaara, it took Chityo giving her life to save him. So, what if Sakura did the same thing for Naruto? And as she does, she admits her true feelings for him and dies with a smile on her face. Then afterwards, Naruto gets with Hinata. Everybdy  wins



It's true that Naruto's life is in danger.  I don't think Sakura know how to perform Chiyo's jutsu but even if Sakura indeed save Naruto's life so what? Back then in Gaara Rescue Arc wasn't Sakura ready to sacrifice her life for Chiyo, was she in love with her? lol nope. 

Sakura doesn't have to admitting anything. Not even two days ago in the manga universe Sakura herself confirmed to be in love with someone and that person was Sasuke alone. Nothing in the manga shows that she might have feelings for Naruto, nor that she is falling out of love for Sasuke. It's actually otherwise, as I said above Sakura confirmed herself  to be in love with Sasuke (and Sasuke alone) not even two days ago in the manga.

Hinata's not a second choice. She will end up with Naruto by her own merit not because she's Naruto's second choice.


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## SoulFire (Jan 17, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> It's true that Naruto's life is in danger.  I don't think Sakura know how to perform Chiyo's jutsu but even if Sakura indeed save Naruto's life so what? Back then in Gaara Rescue Arc wasn't Sakura ready to sacrifice her life for Chiyo, was she in love with her? lol nope.
> 
> Sakura doesn't have to admitting anything. Not even two days ago in the manga universe Sakura herself confirmed to be in love with someone and that person was Sasuke alone. Nothing in the manga shows that she might have feelings for Naruto, nor that she was or uncertain of her feelings or even less that she's falling out of love for Sasuke. It's actually otherwise as I said above Sakura confirmed herself  to be in love with Sasuke not even two days ago in the manga.
> 
> *Hinata's not a second choice. She will end up with Naruto by her own merit not because she's Naruto's second choice.*



I echo this! 

And no, I would not be pleased to see Sakura die this way (or any way). As one of Team 7, her hopes and dreams are as important to me as the rest. Fact is, if she were to use Chiyo's technique to revive Naruto (which I don't think she has the knowledge to do--Kakashi was the guy with the open Sharingan back then)--and Naruto is not yet dead--then she, like Chiyo healing her, would likely not die.


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## izzyisozaki (Jan 17, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Hm, Sasuke doesn't look repulsed either, but I don't see an expression on his face that says that he welcomes it. It looks to me like he is looking at her and thinking, '_Oh, it's Sakura_'.  I sincerely don't think he cares at all during that moment. As a matter of fact, I interpret this scene as the opposite. I don't think Naruto's _just _ reacting to Sasuke's face as a whole, but the entire picture of what he's seeing. He sees Sakura illustrating her love and care for Sasuke in such a dramatic way and the only thing that Sasuke does is apathetically stare back at her; no emotions, no reassurance that he's fine or anything.
> 
> As for Tsunade, I think she was referring to Naruto's sensitivity when it comes to Sakura's feelings. She is the one that is in need of alone time with the person she loves, not Sasuke, who actually isn't showing _any_ type of affection. Sakura's the one that needs the time alone to bask in the relief and comfort knowing that Sasuke is alright.



Couldn't agree more. The scene is about his and Sakura's feelings, not about Sasuke's.


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## Sizume (Jan 17, 2014)

Young Lord Minato said:


> A thought came to me today; what if both Naruhina and Narusaku came true? Bear with me; right now, Naruto's life is hanging in the balance due to having Kurama extracted, right? When that hppened to Gaara, it took Chityo giving her life to save him. So, what if Sakura did the same thing for Naruto? And as she does, she admits her true feelings for him and dies with a smile on her face. Then afterwards, Naruto gets with Hinata. Everybdy  wins



We're jumping way too high here, buddy.


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## Young Lord Minato (Jan 17, 2014)

Yeah, in retrospect, that wasn't a very good idea. Its something someone suggested on another website. I wouldn't want ti to end that way either


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## Naiki (Jan 17, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hey, we're all Naruto fans of some sort or we wouldn't be here! The fact that we interpret things differently shouldn't be cause to be uncivil. In the end it will be Kishi who has the last laugh, after all!




Agreed. It's probably not too wise to boast about your pairing too much anyway, because you might be disappointed when it turns out that your pairing wasn't the one chosen at the end of the manga. So, I'm just going to settle for seeing how things turn out, but that still doesn't mean we can't interpret the past events the way that we want to, right? 




> Because it takes a pound of each ingredient to make pound cake!   To 'poundcake' someone has such a tsundere ring to it, though. Cute!




Really now? I was never aware of that. 




> Ah, well, we read what we read from that scene. The thing is that Naruto has seen Sakura crying and emoting mightily over Sasuke (and Sasuke dead panning the attention) before, most notably during the Zabuza arc. That is nothing new to him. But whatever he saw in Sasuke's eyes in that hospital room compelled him to give them some privacy.




As I said before, Naruto has never actually seen Sasuke react to the care that he gets from Sakura. I believe this was the first time Naruto saw something like this, so he acted accordingly. As stated before, he was reacting more towards the entire situation: Sakura's emotions + Sasuke's reaction = what Naruto saw. 

The Zabuza arc? Wasn't Sasuke unconscious the entire time? But, I don't think that's the point because I don't think it was 'love' that Naruto was seeing in Sasuke's reaction, but complete disregard and concern for something else other than Sakura's affection. Because, remember, Sasuke had just gotten beat up and was reminded, once again, of how weak he was and I doubt he cared that Sakura was hugging him or not. It's obvious that he was dazed and had his mind on something else entirely. If you'll notice, Sasuke maintains that same expression throughout his stay in the hospital until he and Naruto actually fight on the rooftop. 

He is dazed, emotionless, and completely distracted. It was the same look he was giving when Sakura was hugging him. There was _no_ love there, at all. 




> We agree here: Naruto knows and understands that Sakura is just as desperate as is he to bring Sasuke back. Their feelings for Sasuke is the *one* area where they will always understand one another.




I agree with the first sentence, but I will have to disagree with the bolded. Naruto understands Sakura's feelings as far as unrequited love, which I posted about several posts ago. That is the reason why he gave the PoaL to her. I don't think that's the only thing that they understand each other on. Sakura even says so when he gives the PoaL. She says that he always knew about her struggles with her love/acknowledgement of Sasuke and has always tried to help her, via making her happy when it comes to Sasuke. 






> I kinda find all of Naruto's Team 7 bonds to be pretty significant, as his team became his 'family'. His bond with Sakura is just as strong as the one with Sasuke, but different in nature: She was the first girl he had any real interaction with, so she became a very important and precious person to him--sort of a friend/sister/crush combination.




I don't think Naruto thinks of Sakura as a sister in any means. He made it clear since the beginning that Sakura was a very cute girl that he liked a lot. I don't think he would think of a sister in that way.




> Kishi is going to have to prove to me that the silly 'girlfriend' panels are more than comic relief. No way I can take it seriously as is.
> 
> What do you mean 'he acknowledges that his feelings are reciprocated'? Nothing in that scene indicates that Sakura feels anything but righteous anger at Naruto's inaccurate comment.




It was comic relief from Sakura's point because she, usually, when she pounds him, it is considered comedy. I don't think it was meant to be taken as comedy from Naruto's end, however, because he looked completely serious to me. I tend to find that the Japanese find it funny when a female hits a male character in Anime, but I don't think it was meant to be funny for Naruto to answer that she was his girlfriend.

I highly doubt that Naruto is the type to joke about his emotions or anything pertaining to love, especially when it comes to Sakura. If so, it would be a contradiction to what he said back in the Iron Country. "I hate people who lie to themselves!" and also "That joke isn't funny at all!" Apparently, he takes that sort of thing seriously. 

What I meant when he said that he acknowledges his feelings as reciprocated is that he has probably accepted the notion that Sakura might not ever love him, but I don't think that'll stop him from loving her. He has still loved her through her loving Sasuke, right? What's stopping him from still loving her? It's also been indicated since chapter three that the reason Naruto likes/loves Sakura so much anyway is because she seeks acknowledgement just like him. In a way, her desire to gain acknowledgement from Sasuke is what makes him admire her. 








> Before Sakura makes her approach Naruto is swamped by excited overjoyed villagers, and yes, there is a blushing person in the picture:
> 
> teach Obito techniques from the Six Paths




Oh okay. I see it. That brings up different perspective on things, but I still believe that hug was romantic. That's based on my own interpretation. 




> That's where we differ, as I see nothing genuine, flirty or coquettish about her expressions. She is constantly looking away, unable to meet his eyes and even her posture is awkward. She does love those things about him that she says, but they aren't enough to make her fall 'in' love with him.




Just because you don't meet someone's eyes, that doesn't mean you're not genuine. Hinata wasn't looking into Naruto's eyes when she made her confession. I don't see anything awkward about her posture either. The only thing she really does is hug him and that didn't seem that horrible to me. 

That's what we are trying to find out. Is everything that she said in the confession true or not? Plus, remember, her feelings itself were never touched on in the confession except by Naruto. Of course, it would be natural for somebody like Naruto to be in disbelief because he has believed this entire time that Sasuke has always been the one. I'm not saying that this confession is proof that Sakura loves Naruto because it is a huge failure and it was executed horribly. 

However, Sakura does list the good attributes to Naruto and what has made her "admire" him so much and she has an endearing expression on her face as she says so. It is up to Kishimoto at the end of this manga to ring the bell on whether or not her words were true or not. You can't take Naruto's words for it because he has always come to the conclusion that he would never be the one. 





> I don't find her love of Naruto ambiguous at all. She loves him as a precious person, friend and comrade, but she is not in love with him. Kishi has made it very clear that her heart remains with Sasuke, in spite of all that has happened.




Kishimoto also made it clear that Naruto was 'close', but she still loves Sasuke. If her feelings for Naruto were not in question, why would Kishimoto include Naruto in a romantic statement like that? What he said suggests that Naruto is pretty close to her (romantically, because this is a romantic context that Kishimoto placed this in), but she still loves Sasuke. It's as if he is saying that she is close to being in love with him, but her heart still belongs to Sasuke.

That is what makes her feelings ambiguous. It's like Naruto is basically on the verge of being there, but he isn't quite there because of her love for Sasuke.  

It wouldn't make sense to say that Naruto is close as comrades, but she still loves Sasuke. It would've made more sense for him to compare her feelings for both of the boys separately if she supposedly feels something different for each one, but placing both of them in the same frame of reference in the case of romantic love is questionable. That's what makes her feelings ambiguous, and I think we're going to get our answer on that when the Sasuke v. Naruto arc comes around or maybe even during this war arc.


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## Naiki (Jan 17, 2014)

Also, SoulFire, I want to point out which expressions of the confession that I find to be genuine as well as the ones that I find to be uncomfortable.

*Genuine Ones:*




*Uncomfortable Ones where she is obviously lying*






If she were lying about her feelings for Naruto, don't you think she would've been wearing the same expression as the uncomfortable ones? Also, if she were completely lying, why would she defend herself so vehemently about how she feels for Naruto and her concern for his safety? This does nothing but lets me know that she does have ambiguous feelings toward him. This doesn't really prove that she's in love with him, but it brings to light that she *might* have a romantic inclination to him.


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## SoulFire (Jan 18, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. It's probably not too wise to boast about your pairing too much anyway, because you might be disappointed when it turns out that your pairing wasn't the one chosen at the end of the manga. So, I'm just going to settle for seeing how things turn out, but that still doesn't mean we can't interpret the past events the way that we want to, right?
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 18, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Old broads like myself know all kinds of such trivia! Just don't ask me to bake a pound cake!!




I never would have presumed that you're older than me. I must be the youngest one in this thread. 




> *Naruto certainly never saw Sasuke reacting to Sakura's overt care*, but he has witnessed Sakura reacting in just the way she did in the hospital, most notably in ch 33 of the Zabuza arc. Sasuke has always put on an air of indifference around both Naruto and Sakura.




That's what I mean. Naruto has never seen Sasuke react to the overt care, and it made him understand and relate to the situation because Sasuke appeared to be unconcerned with the overt care that Sakura was giving him. I'm assuming that he understood because he could relate in regards to his feelings for Sakura, which explains the pained smile afterwards. 





> No, he eventually came to and was immediately glomped by Sakura.



Ah, you're right. I went back and reread that chapter. 




> I think Naruto saw Sasuke's shields momentarily drop during that hospital hug. Sasuke accepted Sakura's hug and I don't think that he simply was too dazed to brush her off if he wanted to do so. As I said, in the Zabuza arc Sasuke also awoke to Sakura weeping over him. He was dazed there, as well, but he rallied enough to complain when she hugged him (though Kishi made sure to hide his eyes and his true reaction from us).




Sasuke's shield was dropped from the begin with because he was just waking up from possibly a life threatening situation. If there were signs of him accepting the hug, I'm positive there would have been an indication of so, like a small smirk/smile or something of the sort. Maybe a reassurance from him to her saying that 'everything was going to be alright now', but there wasn't. Overall, I really don't think that Sasuke cared, at all. 

The Zabuza incident is a perfect illustration of Sasuke's disdain for being touched. Throughout this series, Sasuke has expressed discomfort with being touched. He did so with Ino, now Sakura, and even Karin when he first recruited her.  In Karin's case, she hadn't even touched him, but her being so close made him uncomfortable. 

I think that message conveys the fact that Sasuke is in _no way_ interested in romantic love or affection. 

Sakura was hugging and weeping over Sasuke in the hospital just as she did during the Zabuza arc, but Sasuke still reacted the same way which was with distaste. The only difference with the hospital scene was that he was dazed and he clearly had his mind on other things. Still, he had that expression on his face as if he wasn't too thrilled about her embracing him. 




> I never intimated that Naruto saw 'love' in Sasuke's eyes. What he saw was acceptance of Sakura's hug and comfort in her caring. Sasuke was not really reminded of his rivalry with Naruto until much later during the apple peeling incident. At this point he is simply, as you say, dazed and waking up to find Sakura's arms around him.



I think Naruto saw the opposite, but you're right about him being reminded of his rivalry with Naruto but for the wrong reason. 




> I find that Sasuke looks quite alert and aware when next we see him in the hospital (the apple scene). Here Sasuke is initially shown remembering his brother's mental abuse. When he looks at Sakura, his gaze is actually forlorn, then turns angry as he recalls that sweet little smile she gave when he revealed that it was Naruto and not himself who saved her from Shikaku. That's where the jealousy towards Naruto rises:
> 
> chapter 561
> 
> From there Sasuke begins to fixate on Naruto's impressive new power and just gets angrier and angrier, striking out at those offered apples in displaced frustration.



Sasuke is shown to be forlorn because he was thinking of how he wasn't able to rescue Sakura because of his inability to do so, plus the fact that Naruto was stronger. Evidently, Sasuke was the one that wanted to take the gratitude for rescuing his teammate because it placed him on top and it would also give him a self esteem boost. Sasuke feels pressured to become strong enough to defeat his brother and I'm sure knowing that your teammate as a new jutsu and saved your teammate, alone, was *not* good for his self-esteem. I think his jealousy streamed more from the fact that Naruto stole the show whilst saving Sakura with his new power and not himself, so in his eyes it probably made him look weak. Sasuke is very competitive and has a bit of a superiority complex, so, of course it bothered him that he wasn't on top during that crucial moment of saving a teammate. 

He became angry when he remembered Naruto's new power and the summoning, not the fact that Naruto saved Sakura. The fact that Naruto is seemingly progressing faster than him is what made him jealous and it is hinted at during the rooftop fight and by Kakashi as well as Jiraiya. Jiraiya had the same relationship with Orochimaru. 

His jealousy and anger at Naruto's progress is what made him slap the apples out of her hands. She was simply a victim of being at the wrong place and at the wrong time.



> What is interesting is that the understanding you are highlighting is..well...related to Sasuke...which kind of backs up my words.



It relates to Sasuke in regards to Sakura, yes, but not to Naruto. Naruto is the one relating to Sakura about her struggles with Sasuke, which is gaining acknowledgement from him romantically. 




With a pained smile, Naruto asks Sakura if she loves Sasuke and then goes on about how he understands the pain that she's going through because of Sasuke. He is relating because he feels the same way that Sakura does in regards to loving someone/them not loving back. He feels the same way in regards to Sakura, because he loves her but she doesn't love him back, obviously. Ironically, Sakura flashes back to her conversation with Naruto (turned Sasuke) and she tells him how Naruto is  disruptive of her love life and how he understands nothing about her. She thinks that he enjoys watching her be troubled and struggle to gain Sasuke's acknowlegment, but it's the complete opposite.



Naruto does understand, which is why he gave the PoaL. Naruto was thinking of her happiness when he did that. 






> Naruto does not think of Sakura as a sister, per se, but within his experiences with a female, she encompasses all of those things that I listed. Sakura was the only girl he had ever been that close to in any capacity. And I do think that the bond they share is primarily a filial one, as they are a part of Naruto's Team 7 'family'.




Yes, I think that they each care for each other deeply, but I don't think the relationship that Naruto views himself with Sakura is family-like, more like 'best-friends', but not family. That would be way too awkward, given that he has asked her out on dates and has attempted to peek on her in the hot-springs on more than one occasion. If anything, the bond between Naruto and Sasuke is more like brothers, according to Naruto, himself. 




> I can't bring myself to say much more about this 'girlfriend' chestnut. I do not consider it serious in any pertinent sense, as it was produced to create the old Team 7 vibe. Personally, as I have said before, I do not hold with the notion that Naruto was joking--I think he was trying to explain his relationship with Sakura to his father regarding the difference between girlfriend and girl friend and failing to make himself clear. Doesn't make the scene any more relevant, pairing-wise imo. Comic relief soaked in nostalga, period.



I'm okay with that. 




> Then he acknowledges that his feelings are _not_ reciprocated, right?



Right! 




> I think the fact that he has accepted that her heart belongs to someone else just might have lead him to step aside a good while ago. Couple that with a new option that he never suspected or thought possible, and he has plenty of incentive to move on.




It might lead him to do so in the future if his feelings continue to go unreciprocated after this war, then yes, but he doesn't appear to have moved on. His camaraderie bond with Hinata has strengthened, no doubt, but the romantic aspect of it has not.


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## Naiki (Jan 18, 2014)

> Nothing looked 'horrible', but everything looked uncomfortable. That's my take and I'm sticking with it.




That's cool with me. We'll just have to see what happens and how things go. 



> That's just it. Sakura's words _were_ true: She realizes Naruto's many good qualities and knows what a great guy he is. She loves him, but not in a romantic way. Naruto and practically everyone else around knows it.




Phew~ I'm glad that we both acknowledge that Sakura's words were true and that she does have some type of 'love' for him, even though we both disagree on the type. Atleast we agree that she does love him and that's what counts! 



> Well, I don't think we're supposed to use Kishi quotes, but if I recall correctly, Kishi was responding to a question about Sakura's feelings for Naruto and Sasuke. He basically is saying that she is close to Naruto (quite true), but it is Sasuke whom she loves.
> Makes sense to me. Kishi's answer is *in response to a question regarding the case of romantic love, so the frame of reference fits*. He is precisely saying that Sakura does feel something different for each one. *She is close to one and romantically loves the other.*
> 
> Gonna try and squeeze this in. Sakura does mean those things she said in her confession, but not in context with being _in love_ with Naruto.  Why did she react with anger? She was caught in her lie and it ticked her off. She took it out on Kiba.



For the bolded part, yes, that's what I believe doesn't make sense. Kishimoto doesn't add in the 'platonic or friend' with the reference to Naruto nor does he do it with Sasuke. He just says that 'Naruto is close, but she loves Sasuke as expected...' They both were in romantic frames of reference. It would've made more sense if he said that, "Naruto is a close friend, and she still loves Sasuke as expected," and in way, he is separating the two by the types of emotions that she feels for them both. I also want to point out that you can be a close lover, and Kishimoto might have also be referring to the fact that Sasuke is far away and Naruto is literally close to her, like she said in the confession. 

Who knows? That statement within itself is rather ambiguous. I think he said that intentionally in order to showcase that Sakura's feels are ambiguous. 

I don't think she reacted in anger because she was caught in a 'lie' but more so around the fact that Naruto wasn't going back to the village like she wanted him too, and the fact that Naruto wouldn't give up his promise like she wanted him to. That was her purpose for coming there in the first place. She wanted to release Naruto of the lifelong burden that she felt she placed on him, and he basically told her he wasn't going to do that for personal reasons. 

Sai even states so.


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## SoulFire (Jan 18, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > I never would have presumed that you're older than me. I must be the youngest one in this thread.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 18, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> That's strangely appropriate, as I am one of, if not* the* oldest poster around here!




I love relating to older people. I think they are some of the wisest people you can ever have a conversation with. 




> This is what is interesting about other points of view. We see completely different indications in the details. While we both think that he is reacting to Sasuke (a take not usually accepted by NS fans, who generally believe his full attention is on Sakura, in spite of the fact that he is speaking to Sasuke), we each think that he sees something different in Sasuke's reaction to Sakura's hug.




Yup! One thing about me is that I can see something for what it is, but my interpretation is based on the factual information of what I observe from a situation. In my opinion, Naruto's full attention is on both of them, but Sasuke's behavior is what prompted the reaction out of him. The only difference is that I happen to think that Naruto is reacting to the indifferent emotion deriving from Sasuke. I understand where you got the notion that it is acceptance because there is no indication that he doesn't like it, but I'm also going to add onto that and say that Sasuke is seemingly indifferent to the hug because he is dazed (number one) and he obviously has his mind on other things (number two). 



> My question is why would he draw the curtain and leave them alone if he saw nothing but rejection in Sasuke's eyes? Naruto is more the type to challenge such behavior, as he challenged Sasuke in the past (during the Chuunin exams) when unhappy with his treatment of Sakura.




Eh, now, I wouldn't say that Naruto saw rejection in Sasuke's eyes, but more like discern and indifference. If you look at that image, you will see that Sasuke is looking at Sakura like she is some sort of nobody. 



I'm going to take a step further and assume that this could be a foreshadowing of Sasuke's desire to sever his bonds later on. As I think about it, it makes more sense which can explain Naruto's expression a bit better. He sees the emptiness in Sasuke's expression and it must have pained him to see such a thing in contrast to Sakura's obvious concern for him.




> Likewise, there was no real indication of Sasuke rejecting Sakura's attention. He was pretty darned dazed from the coma and as you say, *he has always refrained from physical contact in the attempt to keep others from creeping into his heart.* The most he could do was look her way and accept her hug (which I think he really needed at the time).




Yes, that is all true. That is why I came up with the conclusion that this could be the beginning process of Sasuke severing his bonds and connections with his teammates. 

Well, I don't think he refrained from physical contact so people couldn't get into his heart because I'm pretty sure that when team seven formed, he had formed bonds with them rather quickly and actually looked at Naruto and Sakura as actual comrades and friends. He cared about them, but that slowly diminished as his hunger for power overtook him. 

He definitely let people into his heart, but I think it was more of a preference that he didn't like people touching him. Heck, I'm like that, too. I don't like being touched and coddled, but I have plenty of people that I love. It's just a preference. 




> I think the reason is more likely that Sasuke put up walls to avoid letting others into his heart, fearing to again be hurt by those he loves and trusts.




Mm, I don't think so. He let Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi into his heart. He valued them, but his desire for power consumed him. His fight against Gaara was an illustration of that. He cared about the lives of his teammates and he didn't want to see them die "right in front of him", as he stated. 




> Quite true, but I don't think it was  solely for gratitude. Sasuke was always used to being the recipient of Sakura's attention. That smile toward Naruto really got under his skin, not because Naruto one upped him, but because in doing so Naruto stole Sakura's attention. Then he began to obsess over Naruto's new found power and lost himself to his jealousy.




Hm, I think it was solely out of being superior and being the one that exuded the most power. Upon looking it up, Sasuke was actually the one who told Naruto to save Sakura, so I don't think he was jealous over Naruto getting the attention from Sakura. Why would he get jealous over something he told Naruto to do in the first place? What he was jealous over *was the power and growth that Naruto exhibited*. 





What fueled his jealousy was Naruto's power, not the act of him saving Sakura. 




> Ah, but the point I was making was that Naruto and Sakura understand one another most when it comes to Sasuke. They relate to one another through their love of Sasuke and that is what has grown their bond with one another. At other times, they have trouble understanding each other: Naruto did not pick up on Sakura's need to be comforted regarding Tsunade's coma; *Sakura mistakes Naruto's unusual way of thinking and learning as stupidity*.




Not really about Sasuke, but mostly pertaining to unrequited love and striving for acknowledgement from that said party. I explained that in my last post. They both understand each other through the pain of losing a bond, which has brought them closer as a whole and also upon the pain of unrequited love. 

Woah, I think you're wrong about that last part. She always encourages him to do his best whenever he goes on a mission or training, so I highly doubt she thinks he is stupid. She has faith in his abilities and what he can do. Most of the time, she thinks that the things they he do is pretty stupid, not his learning itself. If she thought so, she wouldn't believe in him like she does. If she thought his way of thinking and learning jutsu was stupid, then she wouldn't believe that he could be as strong as he is now. 

Also . . .



But, if she does think he's an idiot, it's definitely not in a bad way . . . 










> Naruto's relationship with his team is filial whether he stops to think about it or not. Regarding the peeking at hot springs, that had to do with hearing women giggling and not Sakura. Naruto did not even think of Sakura in the manga until Yamato reminded him that she was over there. The idea that he was desiring to peek at her was an anime addition.




I don't think so. More like best friends. 




> Hinata now has Naruto's attention. And the romantic aspect of that attention is not outside of the scope of possibilities and cannot be discounted.




I don't think she has Naruto's attention like _that_, but he is aware of her and her feelings. As I interpret it, she is just a part of the rookie nine as a whole. Why is it that everytime Naruto thinks of her, it's never when she's by herself, but when she's with the rookie nine, who he considers to be his friends? 

But, with Sakura, he has thought of her a multitude of times where she isn't lumped in with the rookie nine. 




> I think Kishi meant 'she is close to Naruto (as in she does care about him), but in love with Sasuke'. It comes off as strange perhaps because something is lost in translation from Japanese.




Ah well, it's all interpretation anyways. 




> Our girl Sakura has a temper and I think Naruto invoked it when he rejected her confession. She was mad enough to stomp on Kiba's foot in deferred anger. I think she was also angry and disappointed in herself because she failed miserably at her mission (and likely hurt Naruto in the process).
> 
> 
> Sai also says in the next panel that this was why she _couldn't tell the truth._




Yes, but her temper really came out when Naruto denied her feelings. I would be pissed too, if someone called me a liar when I know what the truth is. I would definitely have an attitude. Yes, she was angry and disappointed in herself because she wasn't successful in getting Naruto to return to the village like she wanted too. 

I do agree that Naruto was hurt pretty badly by her confession. In his mind, she was messing with his emotions, but I really don't think she was. 

She couldn't tell Naruto the truth because she was thinking about him and his feelings the entire time. She was thinking about how the news on Sasuke would hurt him. Her anger was brought on probably by 1) Naruto's denial of her feelings and 2) Her failure to bring him back to the village for his safety, according to her, from the Akatsuki.  3) His refusal to stop pursing Sasuke, once again, for his own safety.

She was angry because he wouldn't do the things she wanted him to do out of concern for him.


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## SoulFire (Jan 18, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > I love relating to older people. I think they are some of the wisest people you can ever have a conversation with.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 19, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I've worked in a nursing home for near 15 years--always loved being around older folks and now I is one!!  Hoping to retire this year!




That's great! Its good to see an older fan of Naruto; makes us adults look less childish for liking anime too! 



> Talk about funny: I just got the latest Naruto DVD today and I've been watching flashbacks of practically all the scenes we've been discussing!
> 
> 
> I see dazed acceptance, you see indifference. What can I tell ya!




Really? Even the confession? I wish I had the money to buy all of that stuff. I just watch the episodes on the internet. 




> *I think Sasuke never wanted to have bonds again after the Uchiha massacre took everything and everyone he loved, which is why he was always so cold and distant*. He tried his best to avoid bonding with them, but failed as he grew to know and like them. *As with Naruto, Team 7 became a substitute family of sorts, though Sasuke could never open up completely, due to his past.*




I agree with this very much, although you can't forget Iruka either! Remember, Naruto thinks of Iruka as a father figure and Jiraiya as a grandfather. He thinks of Sasuke as a brother, but he has made it clear that he thinks of Sakura as a girlfriend/girl more so than just as family, if even that. 




> This may be true after the massacre, but as a child Sasuke was open, friendly and had no problem with physical contact. What happened to him that night left lingering affects from which he has yet to recover.




That's true, he did. I believe what you said in the past about him becoming distant and cold factors into his desire not to be touched now. 




> *Sasuke certainly was upset by Sakura's reaction when she learned that it was Naruto who saved her.* Always honest (sometimes brutally so), Sasuke even told her that Naruto was her rescuer. I think it surprised him when she sent Naruto that appreciative glance. If nothing else, that Uchiha pride was likely scalded by the loss of her attention.




Looking back at it, I can agree that he was disturbed by it out of sheer jealousy of not being recognized and acknowledged in that 'hero' type way. That, again, plays into the superiority complex. I guess Sasuke is the type that wants all of the appreciation because it boosts up his self esteem. 



> But that memory was the catalyst that started the jealous feelings rolling.
> 
> Sakura has been known to tease Naruto mercilessly over his 'idiot' status, which wouldn't be so bad if Naruto didn't actually believe that about himself deep down. More than once he has referred to his self-perceived lack of intelligence. I actually find them intellectually incompatible because his way of thinking is so different from hers and I don't think she understands it or tolerates it well.




The anger/jealousy was more around the idea that Naruto had a new and awakened power that he never showed before. That's what triggered the jealousy. What made him forlorn in the beginning was the memory of Sakura giving Naruto that appreciative smile, which he needs for his own self worth and self confidence boost.

Well, she only really does it when he is actually 'being' idiotic. I can't ever recall her just walking around bullying Naruto and calling him names. I also don't even think that Naruto believes himself to be stupid either. I think he has admitted once that he is more of a _hands-on_ type of learner rather than a listener because he doesn't understand. 

But, Ironically, I find that Naruto's goofiness compliments well with Sakura's sharp-witted behavior and her bad temper because it provides comedy and it proves to be rather entertaining. As far as intellectually, there were times where Naruto was _very_ intelligent and strategic in battle, one example being his fight with Pein. There was also that small exchange he had with the Cloud-nin teammates. He is quick on his feet and can make up plans in the midst of battle, so I think he is definitely maturing and getting better as he ages.

I mean, he will need to be if he's going to become Hokage, right?

*found a way to trick the rinnegan.
*maneuvering with the cloud-nin




> I think of them as best friends and more. Their relationship _is_ so hard to define because Sakura has filled the void of all female relationships (even maternal, in a way) for Naruto as he grew with Team 7.




True that, but don't all women have a maternal instinct when it comes to the people we love? We worry about their safety and that's definitely a maternal instinct, even from Sakura --> Sasuke. 




> *Hinata is now on Naruto's radar so the possibility certainly exists that his feelings for her will (or already has begun to) grow. *
> 
> Naruto has known Hinata for most of his life as a part of another team among the rookies, so it is natural that he think of her in that context. Likewise, Sakura has been a part of his team and as a team mate would not be lumped in with the rest of the rookies.  However, since her confession, Naruto thinks of Hinata alone as much as with others. And he has placed her right beside Sakura in his thoughts as well.




I agree; there is a possiblity, but if Kishimoto wanted ring across this possibility, he would've done so chapters ago when she gave the confession. Instead, he has done otherwise, and it is not nearly the conclusion of the manga and Naruto still hasn't shown signs of these developing feelings. If Kishimoto was planning to do something special with these two, why couldn't he have made Naruto place Hinata in his radar ages ago?

As far as his thoughts on Hinata, the only time he even referred to her as an individual was when he was giving thanks to her for her bravery with his battle against Pein. It was during that time when his clones were arriving at the battlefield to assist everyone, and again, that in itself was centered around the entire rookie nine as a whole. 




> *The problem is that she really wasn't telling the truth (which Sai notes afterward)*. She does love Naruto, but she was trying to convince him that she was in love with him. *He knew it was a lie and didn't buy it*.




The context was that she wasn't telling the real truth about what the rookie nine had decided on in regards to Sasuke. That was what she was lying about. By definition, partial or untold truth is still a lie.

*this., the fact that she couldn't tell him the truth about Sasuke was what was indicated as a lie.

Sai never stated whether her feelings in particular were a lie or not, only Naruto did that. As for him sensing that her love for him was a lie; It was indicated that he thought that her 'giving' up on Sasuke was a lie. Actually, Naruto never made specific which part he thought was a lie: the fact that she didn't love _Sasuke_ anymore or the fact that she loved _him_. Matter-of-factly, the implications of the chapter are that he believes she's lying about her love for Sasuke and the desire to give up on him so easily. 




> I think what hurt Naruto most was the shattering of his hopes for a Team 7 reunion. It really shook him that Sakura was willing to 'give up' on Sasuke after all the time shared in the quest to bring him home.




This as well. 



> I agree with 2 and 3, but I really think that she was more upset with the fact that Naruto simply would not buy into the 'I love you' lie.




Yes, that's the point. By confessing her love for him, she was striving for him to return to the village with her and forget about Sasuke. That was what she wanted to happen, but it didn't turn out that way. I don't think it was the fact that Naruto wasn't buying into the I love you, which was never stated that he thought was a lie, but more around the fact that he wouldn't give up on Sasuke and come home. 

If you'll notice, the first thing that Naruto questions throughout the confession is why her sudden decision to give up on Sasuke. Never did he question Sakura's feelings itself. *this, *this, and then here, Naruto does a whole page on his flashbacks on Sakura pertaining to her love for Sasuke, which makes it clear that the thing he is questioning are her feelings for Sasuke them self, *this.


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 19, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> If you'll notice, the first thing that Naruto questions throughout the confession is why her sudden decision to give up on Sasuke. Never did he question Sakura's feelings itself. *this, *this, and then here, Naruto does a whole page on his flashbacks on Sakura pertaining to her love for Sasuke, which makes it clear that the thing he is questioning are her feelings for Sasuke them self, *this.



Only going to reply to this because I just woke up and I have work in a bit.
The flashbacks weren't questioning her feelings for Sasuke, it was showing that it didn't make any sense as to what she was saying and that if she really stopped caring, it would be completely out of character for her.
This is backed up by this panel
This shows that she not only loves Sasuke, but is willing to kill him because she loves him so much, as well as she does not care if it causes Naruto to hate her in the process, as she loves Sasuke so much. All this to lessen the burden on Naruto but in a way causing him more pain.


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## Naiki (Jan 19, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Only going to reply to this because I just woke up and I have work in a bit.
> *The flashbacks weren't questioning her feelings for Sasuke, it was showing that it didn't make any sense as to what she was saying and that if she really stopped caring, it would be completely out of character for her.*
> This is backed up by this panel
> This shows that she not only loves Sasuke, but is willing to kill him because she loves him so much, as well as she does not care if it causes Naruto to hate her in the process, as she loves Sasuke so much. *All this to lessen the burden on Naruto but in a way causing him more pain.*




Well, good morning. 

The bolded part: yes, I know, and that's what I meant. Naruto was _only_ questioning this notion that she had given up on Sasuke and that she wasn't in love with him anymore, and he was backing it up by all of these memories.

The next bolded part: Sakura knew that it might hurt him to attempt to kill Sasuke, but she didn't care because, in her mind, killing Sasuke would not only lessen his burden but also atone for it as well. That was one of the reasons why she said sorry afterwards anyway, because she knew it would hurt him by killing Sasuke, but she was still doing it partially *for* him at the same time. Yes, part of it was because she loves Sasuke, but the other part has to do with Naruto and her guilt at this burden that she thinks she placed on him. By killing Sasuke, she was willing to have Naruto hate her in order to release him of his promise. And then, factor in the idea that she has relied on Naruto too much as well.

Overall, she was thinking of Naruto's feelings. 

*the sorry.
*she knows that might make you hate . . .


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## Michael Senpai (Jan 19, 2014)

LadyofHubris said:


> Well, good morning.
> 
> The bolded part: yes, I know, and that's what I meant. Naruto was _only_ questioning this notion that she had given up on Sasuke and that she wasn't in love with him anymore, and he was backing it up by all of these memories.
> 
> ...



There ya go! Exactly :3


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## SoulFire (Jan 19, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > That's great! Its good to see an older fan of Naruto; makes us adults look less childish for liking anime too!
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 19, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Yup! The latest DVD set has Sakura's confession with flashbacks of practically all of the scenes we've beed discussing.




That's fanfastic. Those DVD sets are great for those times where you can't even get on the internet. 




> Iruka was there for Naruto before Team 7. In fact, he felt put out when Kakashi took control as Naruto's new teacher. I love Iruka!!




Iruka is actually up there next to Sasuke when it comes to importance because Iruka was actually the first person to talk to Naruto and be nice to him. 





> I think his forlorn expression stemmed from the thoughts of the recent mental and physical abuse from his brother and the mental torment it caused. He then looks to Sakura and thoughts of her shifting her attention to Naruto with all of his new found power and his anger swells.




Itachi's mental/physical abuse is a factor, yes. I can agree with this. 





> Not really. The worst case I can recall (which is again Kishi's idea of humor) is during the "Nicknames" chapter. She berates Naruto for his dislike of reading in the library and proceeds to repeatedly call him an idiot. It was so harsh that Sai gave her the nickname of 'female dog'.




I think it's also important to take note that the Japanese will take certain things differently Americans.  I have read plenty of manga where the friends and family of the protagonist will often call them 'baka' or something of that nature. We, as westerners, aren't used to such things. I don't think Naruto was severely hurt by Sakura's words because that is a part of Japanese culture, in anime, anyway. 




> Naruto does have doubts about his intelligence. He is aware that he thinks in a different way than others. On more than one occasion he has referred to this--even admitting to his father that he is not smart enough to figure things out.




It's normal to recognize a flaw in yourself. Everyone does that, but does his lack of deep thought stop him from pursuing his dreams? Nope! So, I don't think it's an issue with him as far as I'm concerned. He has never made it an obstacle in his path of pursuing his dreams, so I don't think he really worries about such a thing. 




> Naruto and Sakura can be amusing together, but the romance in their interactions escapes me. I simply don't enjoy tsundere behavior wherein the recipient cowers rather than fights back. Which is why I like SuiKa so much--Suigetsu gives as good as he gets.




Personal preference, I guess, but that's how a lot of Japanese anime are. I guess they glorify that type of relationship between females and males. I think I heard somewhere that Sakura is more favored in Japan than Hinata, while it's the opposite with Hinata being more popular in the states. By this, Japanese people are used to seeing this aggressive behavior from women in anime, while we aren't. We are most used to the passive, quiet, shy girl and we find her more appealing than the more aggressive type. 




> Naruto is quite smart. I consider that he has ADD, making book and scroll work a chore--he's best at learning by doing and using comparisons to understand more complex ideas.  He has the ability to plan and act on the fly and has done so since he was a kid of twelve. He will make a great Hokage--and he will have his friends to help him out with the more mundane duties of the office.




That's true. 




> Kishi had no desire to rush into his final pairings at the time of Hinata's confession. That was indeed the first salvo, however, he wanted to set some things straight before he went any further*--primarily exactly where Sakura's feelings still lie.* He addressed this in the Iron Country arc. With the war arc he has just begun to move things forward. I believe that he wants to culminate his romances along with the culmination of the main story. He's taking his time on purpose.



We know where her feelings lie with Sasuke, but we don't know where her feelings lie with Naruto. That's the thing. She hasn't stated how she felt for Naruto since part I and the only thing she has said is what the confession gives us. We can't go by what Naruto says because he has always been rejected by this girl, so of course he's going to settle for what just _might_ not be so. 

I can see if Kishimoto were taking his time to develop NarHin's relationship individually as a slowly budding relationship, but the only thing Naruto has illustrated towards her is camaraderie. It doesn't look to be progressing any further than that. The only time there is actually any type of development in their relationship is when it has something to do with her family or something about her; never about their relationship. Just like the hand incident, all of that never would have happened if Neji hadn't died and that's the limit to what their relationship will have.

Development whenever something pertains to her family or her. Never development in regards to their relationship and feelings. 

Now, I can guarantee that the next time their relationship develops will be when something either happens to her father or something, which I doubt, and that's no way to develop a 'romantic' relationship. The key to developing a positive relationship is building it off of positive,   not negativity, along with developing it off of the feelings you hold for each other, not in the midst of a tragic incident or death. 

This has happened three times. 

1) Hinata's confession -- where Naruto had to practically witness her near death for him to recognize her sacrifice as well as her feelings.
2) Neji had to die -- where Naruto had to, again, realize that the people around him are willing to die for him. 
3) She was almost killed by Neji during the chunnin exams -- where Naruto had to then recognize that she wasn't as soft as she appeared. 

Those are the only times where there relationship has gotten *any* type of development, all at the behest of something tragic happening. 

Whereas with Naruto and Sakura, they both came to care deeply for each other through standing by each others side and watching each other grow and mature into people better than they were in part I, even in the midst of their teammate being gone. That is what made their relationship so positive, even if people might not interpret it as romantic or not. When the both of them act, they act on how they feel for the other or what they can do for the other e.g., Naruto giving the PoaL (given solely for the desire for Sakura's happiness), Sakura's confession (_which she felt was in Naruto's best interest_), Sakura deciding to accompany Naruto on his journey to bring Sasuke back (_She didn't want to rely on him too much_), Naruto handling everything with the cloud-nin (_one of the reasons he didn't rat Sasuke out was because of the promise he made to her_), Naruto not willing to reveal his feelings to her (_felt as if he was unworthy of her, he couldn't keep his promises_), Naruto pulling the curtain during Sakura --> Sasuke hug (_at the expense of Sakura's feeling and her time alone with the person she was worried to death over_).

Their relationship is built on what they feel and can do for each other and it's developing accordingly, and not at the behest of tragic events. 




> Naruto is taking serious notice of Hinata and interacting in ways that can be interpreted as romantic *(looking into each others' eyes, facial caresses, holding hands, etc.)*. But Kishi is not about to reveal Naruto's feelings at this stage--the main story thread presently takes precedent.




Well, all of that was done only from Hinata --> Naruto. Naruto wasn't doing that stuff. Also, what feelings? Naruto has not shown such feelings, and I doubt he has them. If he did, I'm sure he would have said something about them by now. It is well known that Naruto is a very straightforward person and he rarely bites his tongue for anything. If you'll notice, during the hand incident, Hinata was the only one who made a romantic note about how Naruto's hand felt, while Naruto wasn't even thinking about such a thing. It's clear that his mind nor his feelings were on romance at that time. If it were, I'm sure he would've made a comment about how 'soft' or 'smooth' her hand felt in his. 

It was pure camaraderie on his end of it. 




> We are seldom privy to Naruto's thoughts of Hinata or Sakura. He usually thinks back on Sakura in connection with Sasuke. He looks back on Hinata regarding her sacrificial act against Pain. He thinks of both of them equally at the forefront of those he counts as precious people.





I don't think so. In fact, he hasn't thought of Hinata at all throughout the duration of this manga. In over a hundred chapters, Naruto hasn't thought of Hinata or her sacrifice until they reached the war arc. The only thought he recently got from Naruto on Sakura is that she is his girlfriend. Seems like it's pretty much the same to me, and Hinata was even present when he made that statement. If he is supposedly developing these feelings, wouldn't he be uncomfortable saying something like that in front of her?



> If Naruto indicates that he considers her giving up on Sasuke a lie, then he certainly considers her claims of shifting her love to him as a lie as well. To top it off, Naruto states repeatedly that 'Sakura loves Sasuke'. Naruto knows full well that she does not love him.




He never stated that he considered her love for him as a lie. It's very much possible to love two people at the same time. If Naruto believed her love for him was a lie, don't you think he would be flashing back to all of those times that she called him annoying back in part I and other such things? Instead, he focused on the memories expressing her love for Sasuke. _That_ was what's in question. 




> Sorry if this is a bit disjointed: I was almost finished when my cat decided to jump on my keyboard and delete the entire post!!  I've rewritten it very quickly, but some things just don't come out as crisp!




Ah, that's fine!


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## SoulFire (Jan 20, 2014)

> LadyofHubris said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's also important to take note that the Japanese will take certain things differently Americans.  I have read plenty of manga where the friends and family of the protagonist will often call them 'baka' or something of that nature. We, as westerners, aren't used to such things. I don't think Naruto was severely hurt by Sakura's words because that is a part of Japanese culture, in anime, anyway.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 20, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Oh, I understand that much of it has to do with Japanese humor. It still rubs me the wrong way, especially when Naruto does have hidden doubts about himself in the areas wherein Sakura berates him. As said, I prefer Tsundere interaction wherein the guy fights back, not rolls over and pees like a beaten pup.




That's understandable. 




> Naruto has always harbored self doubt--about *his abilities, his worth, his intelligence-*-and has covered with silly behavior and big, phoney grins. *The first (and one of the few) he opened up to about this was Hinata* and it was her restoring his belief in himself that allowed him to mentally re-group and face Neji with confidence.




Ah, I think I know what scene you're talking about. 

this one?

You're right, Naruto did open up to her about his insecurity about failing with reason being that he now knows that she believes in his strength. I'll give you that one. 




> Seems to me that the Japanese prefer Yaoi pairings to anything hetero (something else I can't understand). There are plenty of romantic Tsundere type relationships in western entertainment, but it usually involves a give and take in the banter between the characters. Unfortunately, the only examples I can recall atm are from series made (I'm sure) before you were born, such as 'Moonlighting'.




Yeah, that as well. As for the Tsundere type relationships, yeah, but you never see a female character hitting a male character as something positive in western entertainment. More than anything, it's looked down upon as abuse. 

Yeah, I have no idea what that show is, lol.  :sweat




> If Naruto knows that Sakura romantically loves Sasuke 'so much', he also knows that she does not love him in the same way.




Well, has he said such a thing? It's possible to love two people romantically. It happens all of the time. That's why love triangles exist. 




> Naruto's relationship with Hinata has been built from their earliest interactions on their understanding of one another. They draw strength from one another and each lifts the other up when they are down.




Yeah, but there are very few  interactions. The second sentence can be said for Naruto and Sakura and they have drawn strength from each other more often than Naruto and Hinata has. 




> Adversity can strengthen a bond and help it to grow. As I see it, Naruto and Hinata's bond has been nothing but positive. They lift one another up from adversity and the depths of despair.




Yes, that's true, but their development is being built off of negative foundations all of the time. It's always on the behest of tragic events, and never about their feelings for each other and what they can do for each other. 




> Missing is the 'Proud Failure' scene in ch 98 where Hinata returned Naruto's confidence in himself.




Yes, that's the one instance where their relationship developed through what they feel for each other ( in that instance, what Hinata feels for Naruto which is belief in his strength).




> I think the first half of this sentence can be related to both NS and NH. And that Naruto and Sakura have also faced their share of adversity together (though NH gets the lion's share of really big, dramatic moments).




Mm, I'm going to have to disagree with this. Naruto and Hinata's relationship lack the type of development based on what they can do for each other and feelings. There has been only one instance of that which was Hinata --> Naruto. Their relationship is solely based off of being uplifted during tragic times and it doesn't seem to progress further than that. There were times where Naruto and Sakura have uplifted each other and team seven as a whole. A relationship of uplifting development is something that anyone can have. In fact, after the first Sasuke reunion, the entire team uplifted Naruto. Uplifting can be more like camaraderie than anything.

here, here. here, and here.




> Oh, no. It was _Naruto_ who took Hinata's hand, held on to it and even gave it a squeeze.




But was when he grabbed her hand romance inclined? Who was he thinking of when he was doing it? here He was thinking of all of the people that there that died for him and are willing to die for him, even Hinata, and he thanks Hinata accordingly for being by his side. Also, he thanks Neji too, so that is what makes it pure camaraderie. 

here, notice that in that last panel, Hinata was the only one taking in the moment as romantic with her hand comment and even when he had squeezed it, he was giving her a wide smile of gratitude and that only. 




> Naruto has feelings for both girls, but Kishi is not about to openly reveal them at this time. We have not heard from Naruto his current, deeper feelings for either Sakura or Hinata. And we won't until the story progresses further.




Yes, but he feels differently for both. Hinata (as a comrade that he knows has a good heart (according to an old databook ) and he feels romantically towards the other (one whom he recently answered as his girlfriend). I think it was made pretty much clear that there is no romantic love on Naruto's part for Hinata given that he answered Sakura's question about the girlfriend as "pretty much". 

What makes it so bad is that Hinata was right in the vicinity. Naruto's feelings haven't changed a bit, according to what the manga is saying. He still views Hinata as a close comrade and Sakura as someone he really likes. 




> Not so. His first thought upon regaining himself after nearly going nine tails concerned Hinata, and he even paused to search out her chakra to make sure she was alive (after which he wept, clutched his heart and basically said 'thank God'). I recall another scene where he recalls Hinata's sacrifice and says that he just lost it and let the Kyuubi take over when he saw her stabbed (I just can't for the life of me recall where that scene is--I'll blame it on old age!)




Doesn't indicate romantic love. Remember, Sakura did the same thing for Naruto. I think his concern for her was more out of concern for a comrade. Anyone would feel that way if they found out they had killed a comrade or someone close to them. The same for the second scene, Naruto went Kyuubi for Sasuke, but does that count as romantic as well? Remember, he completely lost it when Orochimaru just said that Sasuke belonged to him. 




> You know that I don't think that 'girlfriend' scene is meant to be taken seriously, nor do I think he was actually calling Sakura his girlfriend--he was trying to explain their relationship (girl friend, not girlfriend) and failing miserably--Sakura beaned him before he could make himself clear. He was not saying anything that would hurt Hinata, and she certainly was not deterred in her determination to be with him by his words.




I think I had a debate with someone awhile ago about the whole "girl friend" thing and we all agreed that the japanese translation for that doesn't make sense in that context. I wouldn't say that Naruto doesn't know the difference between a "girlfriend" and "girl friend" because he would have said so if he just thought of her as a "girl friend". 

Naruto's smart enough to know what taking a girl on a date means and trying to kiss said girl when he's transformed into another, so I highly doubt he wouldn't know what a girlfriend is either.

On top of that, he knew about it then, so why would he assume it's something different now? 






> This is something I see said often, but do not find to be true--certainly not in my case. I cannot imagine romantically loving two people at once. I can see loving more than one person, but in different ways, but not in a romantic sense. Maybe it's just me, but when I love, I love completely with no room for more than one in my heart.




Sure it can happen. It's not completely impossible.




> No, because he has always known that Sakura's heart was not his. What struck him as completely suspicious was her denial of Sasuke so he thought back to all those times that made it clear just how much she loved their team mate.
> 
> Oh wow!! You changed your name!!




Exactly, which explains why he didn't believe her notion that she didn't love Sasuke anymore. I mean, Naruto has once expressed that he had wanted Sakura to like him more and he got his wish (seemingly), so why would he reject that? 




I sure did! I was getting tired of LadyofHubris.


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## SoulFire (Jan 21, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, that as well. As for the Tsundere type relationships, yeah, but you never see a female character hitting a male character as something positive in western entertainment. More than anything, it's looked down upon as abuse.
> ...


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## Rinoa (Jan 24, 2014)

> I want to announce that both of you _*Naiki*_ and _*SoulFire!*_ proved to be the best opponents debating between you two at the Big 3 thread in the recent times.
> Both have maintained for a long-term debate and have been able to keep debating the arguments presented by the other in a correct and clean way and sometimes can even make a joke between the posts.
> 
> We decided not let this to pass blank and to show our recognition for what you guys have proven to be possible to do;
> ...



This post has been only a brief small interruption_information.
Keep up with the topic and debates. :3


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## Naiki (Jan 24, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Logically, if _he believes that Sakura truly loves Sasuke_, *he believes that she does NOT love him.*  And no, I'm not one to buy into that viewpoint on romantic love, nor do I think is Naruto. Romantic triangles are about two people in love with the same person, not one person in love with two others equally.




That part wasn't addressed, so there is no indication that he truly believes that. What is certain that he thinks is a lie is the part in underline. There is no indication that he believes the bolded, but there is no indication that he doesn't believe it either. It was never addressed. 




> I stand by the NH truth of *quality* over quantity. Sakura and Naruto have shared adversity (often in their shared quest for Sasuke) and grown through it into great team mates and friends. But when it comes to truly dramatic and possibly life changing moments, it has usually been Hinata by Naruto's side.




The good quality that is camaraderie from him --> her, yes.   There hasn't been any mutual romantic development from them. As for the Hinata being by Naruto's side, that's what I meant. The development has only been on Hinata's end throughout their relationship. Naruto has never developed from any situation that has happened between them and that's because Naruto is only a device used for Hinata's development. Her love for him is a stem off of the development she needs from his influence. 

The same goes for the rest of the rookie nine. The only difference is that none of them love him romantically. 




> As I've said, adversity can strengthen and build a relationship. Through adversity Naruto and Hinata have experienced positive personal growth both within _themselves_ and_ with one another_. Every interaction they have had has been about what they can do for one another.




I would only say that they received positive personal growth together many times, but only during that hand incident. I wouldn't call her being nearly killed and him going nine-tails afterwards as positive personal growth together. If anything, it's negative on Naruto's part because he saw a comrade nearly killed in front of him. 




> And Naruto learned that he actually liked someone like Hinata.




Yes, but not that way. He likes her the same way he would like Rock Lee, Kiba, Neji, or anyone who knows that type of guts or someone who doesn't give up like him. As i said before, he likes her as a comrade and has been that way this entire time, even up to the hand incident. He gives her that same smile that he gave her when he said that. 

He meant it in a platonic way then, and he still does now. I don't see him developing romantic feelings for her right now. 




> I never claimed that it was an overtly romantic gesture. But it was a movement universally viewed as romantic in nature (inserted by Kishi) and definitely indicates a new and more intimate stage in the NH relationship.




I explained what I think the hand holding meant in that chapter and it has a lot to do with the name of the chapter and the symbolism behind it. When you are connected with somebody physically, you hold their hand. Now, the message of the chapter is told as being connected with each other as comrades and as one. Naruto grabs Hinata's hand restating that exact thing and thanks both Hinata as well as Neji for being by his side (as comrades). He then tells Hinata, "let's go" as if to say 'let's head into battle together (as comrades)'. 

That is what I think that meant. Hinata and Naruto were connected as comrades heading into battle, nothing more.

That hand hold was nothing more than symbolism on the chapter's message. 




> Actually, Hinata was simply deriving comfort from the feel of his hand around hers--it made her feel safe. And that smile Naruto sent her was small and quiet and could just as easily be interpreted as more than simple gratitude. Hinata has certainly gained confidence in the possibility of being by his side *romantically* from his interaction with her. We're not going to find out his side of things until Kishi deems the time right to mesh his romantic plot line fully with his main one.




I explained what I think all of that meant. As for the declaration that she wants to be by his side romantically, I don't think that's the case. Everyone has declared that they want to be by Naruto's side during the midst of the war. 


It would be unbefitting to make romantic declarations like that when she should be uncertain if she's even going to make it out alive. This is what I think it was meant to be taken as; more like a fighting beside each other as comrades type of thing. 

Honestly, I don't think there is a side to see. Kishimoto has had ample time to make Naruto develop some type of special connection with Hinata, but it was never taken. The only reason that Hinata is in this romantic plotline is because Hinata loves Naruto and her love for him stems from her development of him. Plus, there's the fact that she's being used as a pairing tease. 



> Didn't say it did. But it does prove that Naruto has been thinking about Hinata and her sacrifice prior to the war arc. She _has _been on his mind. Just not the forward focus in a world full of adversity that he is trying to make right. As I said before, Hinata is now on his radar. How that develops further as this war winds down remains to be seen.




I don't think so, really. 

He hasn't thought of that incident in hundreds of chapters and he acknowledged it when it was the appropriate. He didn't acknowledge it in an intimate setting or anything. He never addressed the confession itself, but the bravery of her act (which a comrade does) and itself shows the camaraderie of his feelings for her.

In my opinion, his sidestep of her confession was really an indirect rejection. At least he addressed Sakura's confession, but he never addressed Hinata's which is a bigger slap in the face to me. Naruto really didn't reject Sakura's confession either, but pointed out that he thought she was lying about her feelings for Sasuke.

In fact, he was clearly shocked/delighted when she first told him she loved him. On the other hand, Naruto simply stared at Hinata with a taken back expression. There was no delight in his expression and if he truly did feel so about her, I'm sure would've reacted differently. In fact, his expression was that of one that's perplexed, taken aback and just downright lost. His face remains so even into her speech and that's when his face breaks into that of pure shock.

To me, that reaction is that of someone just being told their friend is in love with them and they don't feel the same way. 

here, here, and here.

That wasn't the case with Sakura, whom he asked to repeat herself with a bit of hopeful/shocked expression. 

here, and he even had a blush on his face when he didn't with Hinata. He was obviously delighted at first when Sakura confessed, but wasn't so with Hinata. In fact, with Hinata in that panel after she says she loves him, he has this 'what the heck just happened' / dumbfounded/  baffled expression on his face. 




> Oh, no. Naruto is not confusing the word 'girlfriend' in that scene. As I see it, he knows the context in which Minato uses the word, and he is attempting to explain that it is the wrong definition of his relationship with Sakura--he just can't voice his thoughts clearly (this is where the sort of/kind of/whatever the weak translation is comes in). Thus, he ticks off Sakura and is whacked for his failed efforts.




I don't think so. He's more honest than that. I'm sure he would've just said, 'No, she's a teammate', but he said, "More or less." In other words, she's his girlfriend but it's not yet official. Even if he were joking or not (which I doubt), that still doesn't take away a fact that was known since chapter three: he's in love with her. 





> Naiki--I like it!!




Thank you, dear!


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## SoulFire (Jan 25, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > That part wasn't addressed, so there is no indication that he truly believes that. What is certain that he thinks is a lie is the part in underline. There is no indication that he believes the bolded, but there is no indication that he doesn't believe it either. It was never addressed.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I think what you're saying is that he believes that Sakura's rejection of Sasuke is a lie; that he believes that she does love Sasuke (which he repeats over and over). It is logical to assume (which is all we can do at this point) that he also believes that she _does not_ love him in the same way.  I can't really imagine how he would think otherwise.




Well, there in no indication that he believes that Sakura doesn't appreciate and admire him and there is also no indication that he is developing romantic for Hinata. Yet, we both believe one of each, don't we? 




> The true extent of Naruto's current feelings for_ both_ girls has not been satisfactorily addressed at this point in the story. We're all still *waiting*.





Honestly, I don't think there is anything to wait on. Naruto's the protagonist of this shonen manga who's feelings have been reiterated through the roof since part I, so I think it's safe to say that that. If you've noticed, Kishimoto has never spent much time on the romantic plotline of Naruto because he is the main character. On the other hand, he has so for Sakura and Hinata and that's because they both are a supporting and side character. It's alright to shift and mess with the love plotlines of their characters because they aren't the main character, but it's different for Naruto.

I really think it's clear that Naruto's feelings for Hinata will remain the same as they've ever been, as well as his feelings for Sakura. 




> Actually, I believe that Naruto has had development from their situations together. He has gained greater belief in himself and strengthened his resolve through their interaction.




You can say the exact same thing for NarSak as well.  I mean, they are teammates and have been through more than anything together. There's also the fact that he has always had great belief in himself and great resolve; or else I think he wouldn't have made it his dream to become Hokage in the first place. 

He had great resolve when he decided to go after Sasuke and die with him to absolve him of his hatred, didn't he? He has always believed in himself, way before Hinata came into the picture. 




> Facing adversity as they have together has made both Naruto and Hinata stronger. It is not the first time that Naruto has seen a precious comrade apparently die before him (Sasuke, Zabuza arc). The knowledge of Hinata's feelings I think was a positive event because it *brought them to Naruto's attention*.




No, what brought Naruto's attention was the bravery of her actions, not her feelings itself. Even then, Naruto said that the idea of her protecting him was "_uncool_", so he clearly didn't like that either. The feelings were completely disregarded and overshadowed by the act of her jumping in to save him. I mean, that's the only thing he addressed after weeks and weeks and weeks of ignoring her and her sacrifice. Looks to me like an indirect rejection.

So, I don't think the bolded is the case. 





> Naruto realized that he liked Hinata as a person back at the training grounds. That was a beginning. Whether that realization is growing into something more as time and circumstance has progressed is yet to be revealed.  But the possibility is definitely there.




Yes, there is a possibility, but it isn't a possibility that has appeared to be taken. 




> Within that chapter Naruto and Hinata connected both on a physical and a  spiritual level. *They rose together, hand in hand, to face adversity.* It was a strong bonding moment between them--strong enough to make the cover of volume 64. Just a message of comradery? Perhaps, but it is just as possible that Kishi is indicating that they have begun to connect in a more personal way.





Yes, they rose together, hand in hand, to face adversity which is what every comrade does. It was a strong bonding moment of camaraderie, and the only way it can be that much more personal is because it is the epitome of what Hinata is. It's more persona from Hinata to Naruto because she knows that she will always be there to protect him and possibly die for him, because that is what a comrade does for other comrades.





> We've covered this before. Hinata has made it clear to the reader through her thoughts that she desires (and intends) to be at Naruto's side, holding his hand 'forever' after the war. Her desire and intention is completely romantic. It is _Sakura_ who speaks for everyone in a declaration to be by his side during the coming battle, lumping herself in with the entire Shinobi Alliance:





The 'holding his hand forever and being at Naruto's side' shtick is what connects to the hand-holding incident as camaraderie. The message of that hand incident and the idea of holding hands as symbolism to shinobi being connected as comrades refers back to Hinata's statement here. This brings clear that the meaning of Hinata's statement here is that she desires to hold hands with Naruto forever, connected, as comrades in adversity. 

Because of the message of shinobi being connected in that hand incident and her statement here, it is easy to make sense of what she meant. 




> Hinata has often been accused of having no confidence in Naruto (because she fears for his safety as someone in love is wont to do), but this certainty in being by his side at war's end shows just how much *she believes in his ability to survive--and in her own*.





Well, she didn't believe in his ability to defeat Kiba, so I doubt that. Everyone but Sakura believed that Naruto could beat Kiba. It's the same scenario when they fought Tobi. In fact, it implies the opposite. She doesn't have faith that he can survive, and she doesn't have faith in his strength. I think you're mistaking that for Sakura.


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## Naiki (Jan 25, 2014)

> There certainly is a side to see. I fully believe that Naruto's romantic feelings will be revealed as this story winds down because they are currently *ambiguous* at best. Naruto_ is_ developing _a special connection with Hinata_ as this war arc progresses. Hinata was *one of the first characters developed* for this manga and has a more fleshed out background than the majority of female characters, including Sakura. Kishi created her to be more than a 'pairing tease'.




I covered this above about shonen manga and how the protagonist's feelings are rarely going to be toyed with in the storyline. The only thing I see forming between him and Hinata is mutual understanding of the desire to be strong and his opinion of her improving from that, "weird, wishy-washy girl" from back in the academy. I don't see it going anywhere further than that. 

In fact, one of the first developed female characters was Sakura because she is the one undergoes a transformation from cry-baby Sakura to a true kunoichi. Her development started in the Chunin exams, to be exact. That was the time when we were just getting a feel of who Hinata was.  








> Hundreds of chapters can be weeks, *days or hours* within the time context of the story. _Kishi_ has avoided addressing the confession until he feels the time is 'right' (which obviously may not be the time that we as readers feel as right). The fact that Naruto brings up Hinata's actions and recalls with horror the aftermath tells us *that he remembers her confession as well*. Honestly, we don't know if it was addressed before Naruto left for Turtle Island, as Hinata had a memory of Naruto apparently interacting with her in a scene we have yet to see.




I doubt it would have been days or hours. All of that time spent from Pein's attack through the preparation of the war and everything in between, I doubt it's hours or days. I'd say perhaps several months at best. 

It doesn't tell us anything in regards to the confession. That's just wishful thinking. Obviously, if he wanted to addressed the confession, he should have. So, honestly, if he had addressed it and it was a pivotal moment in their relationship, Kishimoto would have shown so instead of waiting to the end of the manga to cram in development for them that could have easily been done throughout. 




> Shocked, yes, but I wouldn't call his expression 'delighted'.
> _Ch.606_




I'm referring to after she repeats herself. 

, and it was when she began this nonsense about Sasuke and not caring for him anymore that made Naruto's suspicions grow and his face darkened accordingly. 





, and in this last image, you'll notice that Naruto has his disapproving curl to his lips after Sakura talks about how all Sasuke has done is commit crimes and break her heart, becoming a distant person. 

That is what upset him about the confession; not the idea that she loves him. It's that particular thing he knows is a lie. However, other than that, he was shocked and delighted to know that she might actually love  him. 




> Entirely different context here. Naruto is pinned down, helpless and demoralized when Hinata makes her appearance and eventually confesses. He is in complete and total shock, but of a totally different type. There was no rejection. The abrupt realization that Hinata loved him and was ready to die for him left him completely stunned.





Yeah, realization that Hinata loved him is what stunned him, but I doubt the idea that she was ready to die for him stunned him though. Neji wouldn't have had to die for Naruto to realize that comrades were willing to die for him. 




> This is a blush of surprise as I read it. Sakura has just dissed Sasuke, . As for his expression with Hinata, he is definitely dumbfounded/stunned/shocked.  Her confession was the last thing he expected to hear. Something Naruto was even more startled to hear than her expression of love. *The surprise fades and Naruto's expression darkens. He is anything but delighted*




I don't know if there is such a thing as a blush of shock, but it looked more like a romantic and delighted one. If it was supposedly a blush of shock, why didn't it pop up for Hinata when he was obviously shocked there too? Also, I'm sure that Sakura's expression of love was the last thing he expected to hear as well, coming all of the way from Konoha to Iron country. 

There is more than surprise there, and Naruto's expression only darkens when he suspects that she's lying about her love for Sasuke. His face wasn't dark here:



or here:






> Naruto can be a bit of a goof--especially if Kishi wants comedy. Naruto was being honest, but also obtuse (as he is wont to be at times, despite his TNJ abilities). I see him trying to set Dad straight, failing miserably and inducing Sakura's angry attack all in the name of nostalgic humor.




Not exactly.  You just stated that he was being honest about the notion that Sakura was his girl, but I think it was more on the idea that he knew that he would be poundcaked by Sakura if he lied, but just took the risk anyway because he was answering based off of his feelings for her. That is what I think the slight hesitation at first meant.


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## SoulFire (Jan 26, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Well, there in no indication that he believes that Sakura doesn't appreciate and admire him and there is also no indication that he is developing romantic for Hinata. Yet, we both believe one of each, don't we?
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jan 26, 2014)

> I doubt it would have been days or hours. All of that time spent from Pein's attack through the preparation of the war and everything in between, I doubt it's hours or days. I'd say perhaps several months at best.


What I mean is that we can't judge the timeline outside of the story. The current arc has been going on for over a year, yet within the story itself it has been only one night. Hundreds of chapters ago is meaningless when talking about a past event. I'm thinking it is more like a month since the destruction of Konoha, but I could be wrong...



> It doesn't tell us anything in regards to the confession. That's just wishful thinking. Obviously, if he wanted to addressed the confession, he should have. So, honestly, if he had addressed it and it was a pivotal moment in their relationship, Kishimoto would have shown so instead of waiting to the end of the manga to cram in development for them that could have easily been done throughout.



If Naruto remembers Hinata's arrival before Pain and the aftermath with her bleeding out on the ground, he very well remembers what she said in between those two occurrences. 

Naruto will be shown addressing Hinata's confession when Kishi wants it done. The romantic angle of his story is secondary to the main plot and he seems content to 'cram' the romantic resolutions into the equation late in the game. I also suspect that Kishi also wants to keep his pairing fans hanging for as long as possible. 



> , and it was when she began this nonsense about Sasuke and not caring for him anymore that made Naruto's suspicions grow and his face darkened accordingly.


That blush actually appears _after_ Sakura makes the statements against Sasuke and then disappears as shock turns to anger in Naruto's face. 



> I don't know if there is such a thing as a blush of shock, but it looked more like a romantic and delighted one.



I see the shock, but not the romantic delight there.



> If it was supposedly a blush of shock, why didn't it pop up for Hinata when he was obviously shocked there too?



Context. These are two very different scenes. When Hinata confessed Naruto was completely demoralized and  pinned down, his chakra disrupted by Pain. He was full of physical and mental pain. He was past blushing at that point.  Circumstances are quite different when it comes to the Iron Country confession.



> Not exactly. * You just stated that he was being honest about the notion that Sakura was his girl*, but I think it was more on the idea that he knew that he would be poundcaked by Sakura if he lied, but just took the risk anyway because he was answering based off of his feelings for her. That is what I think the slight hesitation at first meant.



I was stating that he was attempting to explain the true relationship between himself and Sakura, not that he was being honest about the idea of Sakura being his girl. He knows full well that she is not his girlfriend and there is no real reason for him to claim that she is. He is hesitant as he tries to find the right way to define their relationship and he fails. Wham! Bam! Haha! There you have it.


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## Naiki (Jan 26, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Well, I do think that Naruto understands that Sakura thinks highly of him (enough to jeopardize their friendship for his sake) and I also think that there are indications that Naruto could be looking at Hinata in a new light that could turn romantic.




I'm not saying that it isn't possible that Naruto's new light on Hinata can turn into something romantic, but the issue stands as this: Naruto's new light on Hinata has not showed signs of being bathed in a more romantic light. All we know is that he still has Sakura on the list as his number one candidate for romantic interest. 

Just as Sakura hasn't shown signs of getting over Sasuke as of yet, Naruto hasn't either in regards to Sakura. Not too long ago, it was verified that Sakura still holds lingering feelings for Sasuke and it was also verified that Naruto still holds lingering feelings for Sakura, yet are more accepting to the idea that Sakura loves Sasuke. On the other hand, when it's verified with Naruto, t's taken as somethng else and misconstrued heavily as a joke or he didn't mean it. 

It doesn't matter if he was joking or not, it was still verification that he still holds those lingering emotions for her. As of yet, no one's feelings have shown signs of changing. The only thing that is different is that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are looked at in a wider and more ambiguous scale, while Naruto's for Hinata has been reiterated as comrade like over and over again. 

Still, people don't want to acknowledge what is it because their fandom will be crushed. 




> Much has taken place since part one of this series that could have influenced Naruto's feelings toward Sakura, particularly if one considers that he made the decision to step away from the pursuit of her way back then. Kishi has played Naruto's feelings close to the vest throughout part two, not necessarily because they haven't changed, but because the romantic thread of this story is quite secondary to the primary plot.




Much as taken place since part one for his feelings to have been influenced towards Sasuke, but it hasn't. You can also say the same thing for Sakura. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been close to the vest since the beginning of part two. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke had not been brought up in a romantic context until basically the confession and the love letter. 

As it turns out, she still loves him, so you can't say the same thing in regards to Naruto just because their feelings haven't been touched on in quite a while. That doesn't prove anything and there is no evidence or proof of that based on time because, remember, they are shinobi and their lives don't revolve around thinking about Tom, Dick, and Harry. 

It's shonen manga for a reason. 




> While Sakura is technically one of the main characters, I tend to agree that she has been treated as a secondary/supporting character often. From the beginning Kishi has used the female characters to move the romantic threads of his story along. Neither Naruto or Sasuke have really focused seriously on romantic matters to the extent of the girls involved--they are more focused on other plot points.




Precisely, and it is because of this reason that one can make the argument that character A doesn't have romantic feelings for character B anymore because it hasn't been illustrated in a while. Even Sakura's emotions hadn't been touched on in hundreds of chapters in the beginning, but it turns out that she still felt them. 





> I think enough has occurred within the second part of this story to indicate the possibility that Naruto's feelings are not necessarily static and could be in flux.




Naruto now looks at Hinata in a more positive light, that's for certain, and he most definitely respects her more now. I don't know about it being romantic, but I think that he thinks she has a good heart and she is strong. Other than that, he still 'jokes' about Sakura being his girlfrend, so I think they are still rather basic and static. 

Naruto isn't that much of a complicated character and he is a pretty honest and straightforward guy. If he were having something going on with blossoming romantic feelings for Hinata, then I think he would've felt more than uncomfortable jesting about Sakura in front of his father. Not only that, but Minato felt the need to compare her to Kushina afterwards.

If that was what Kushina was looking for (romantic development between NarHin), I'm sure Sakura and Hinata's roles would have been reversed. 




> I don't deny that. I'm simply saying that Naruto _has_ experienced personal development in his interactions with Hinata. You stated that  'development has only been on Hinata's end throughout their relationship' and that 'Naruto has never developed from any situation that has happened between them.' I believe otherwise.




Alright, tell me the situations where they both developed mutually together from their experiences. You already listed that time at the training post as one, so can you list others? The hand incident was another, but I can't really count the Pein arc as anything because there wasn't any development from Naruto end. The only thing he saw was a comrade nearly killed in front of him and he went haywire before waking up and realizing that he helped in the destruction of the village as well as the death of one of his friends. 




> Naruto has always had insecurities and bouts of self doubt. He admitted this to Hinata back at the training grounds in ch 98. He continues to doubt his own intelligence, even telling his father that he's not smart enough. As Hinata noted, Naruto is a proud failure, gathering his resolve to rise above his doubts and imperfections to succeed.




Yes, but even though she told him that, he still thinks that to this day since he told his father that way after the training post, so her words really didn't give much development to him. It's a fact about Naruto and he knows it, but I don't think its really an insecurity. He doesn't seem to be embarrassed or frets over it, unlike how Sakura used to do about her forehead. More than likely, when you have an insecurity, you feel ashamed and you attempt to hide that flaw. However, it its a negative trait about you and you acknowledge it but aren't ashamed of it, then it's not really an insecurity but a simple fact. 




> Hinata's declaration of love definitely got Naruto's attention--he never expected to hear that when he asked why she was there. *It certainly put her on his radar*. Naruto is actually impressed by and grateful for Hinata's bravery and sacrifice. He eased her discomfort at needing his help by telling her that it wouldn't be 'cool' for him to always be the one being saved--it was his turn to save her.




No, it didn't. I assure you that if it did, he wouldn't have ignored it for all of those chapters and he would have taken more time to get to know her as a person; spend time with her. He wasn't interested in her love and he still isn't. The only thing he was interested in was the comrade factor of her sacrifice and that's what made him grateful. If he really cared about her feelings as you say, he most likely would have addressed them and said something like, "You like a guy like me?"

If you'll notice, when Sai told Sakura that Naruto loves her, she responded to it right away afterwards with, "The fool loves someone like me", but Naruto never did that. Yes, he is impressed by her bravery and  her sacrifice, nothing more. However, it didn't impress him enough to add her onto the romantic interest list just yet because he completely and utterly overlooked that. 

In other words; an indirect rejection.


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## Naiki (Jan 26, 2014)

> I doubt that Naruto was ignoring Hinata. We really don't know if they met before he left for Turtle Island, as this was not addressed by the author. I would also add that Naruto's distrust of those around him had not yet been faced at the Waterfall of Truth. Thus he may have not been completely comfortable with her confession.




He ignored her. As I've said, if they discussed her confession and it impacted their relationship in a romantcally positive way, then I'm sure the author would have written up a few panels to show the shift in relationships. There _was_ no shift in the relationships. 



> As of yet.




Yes, but it's troublesome when Sakura's feelings are looked at as ambiguous, Naruto apparently still likes Sakura while showing _no_ indication of developing romantic ones for Hinata,  and Sakura's trust in Sasuke is gradually waning as we speak. It seems that NarSak has a better chance than NarHin by a small margin. The endgame pairing is dependent on Naruto's feelings *and* whoever's feelings he ends up with. As of yet, he has shown no feelings of romantic love for Hinata. 




> It was as strong a personal moment for Naruto as well. How often have we seen him take a girls hand and squeeze it in his own? As for as Hinata, she wants to always be there for Naruto to protect and possibly die for him because that is what one in love does for the person they love.




Again, that is what I'm trying to say: the message isn't about romantic love, but comrades connected in battle and standing as one. It was symbolism on the chapters message, as I've said before. There have been plenty of times where I have had my hand grasped and squeezed through comfort, reassurance, or anything.

When someone grabs and holds your hand, it's not always because you're trying to develop a romantic bond with them, and Kishimoto illustrated that through this chapter message and through the symbolism of being connected as comrades and shinobi. 

Would it also have been romantic if Naruto had grabbed Obito's hand when he reached his out to him in that chapter? 

If you'll just reread the overall message of this chapter, here, you'll realize how the hand-holding at the end symbolizes the feeling in their hearts to never give up and how their lives are connected together as comrades. Then, it goes on  to talk about not abandoning friends or the bonds that he have and it talks about how Neji did the same thing his parents did. Not only that, but he thinks back on how all of his comrades are willing to sacrifice their lives for him, even Killer bee in this chapter. 

That is the overall chapter in this message and Naruto grabs Hinata's hand in thanks for making him see that his friends are there to die for him, even herself. here, even in this picture, you see the two of them standing there before the Juubi as they hold hands, connected, as comrades and he even tells her "let's go" like he would any of his other comrades. 

This is again, the message of the chapter. 

And then, there's the fact that he grabs everyone else's hands, so that completely depletes the idea that this was romantic development between them. If anything, it still drives home the camaraderie from Nar --> Hin. here.




> Wanting to hold hands with someone you obviously are in love with has flat out romantic connotations. Yes, the chapter is about being connected, *but not just as comrades*. It is also about Hinata connecting with Naruto at soul level and raising him up from the depth of his despair even as she, herself, despairs over Neji's death. She reminds him that he is connected to everyone while strengthening her emotional connection with him.




Yes, she might want to be more than that with Naruto, but he didn't display that behavior in the chapter, which is what I explained above and in other posts. 



> Hinata wants to be at Naruto's side forever and in a romantic sense, sharing adversity and joy, laughter and tears. She wants it all.




That statement can be interpreted in an ambiguous way. Hinata has never expressed the desire for Naruto to be her boyfriend, but she has expressed the desire to be with him, stand with him, etc. which she has been doing all along.




> Once again, concern for the well being of someone you care about is not a lack of faith. It is a natural reaction. Consider that Naruto's battle with Kiba was the first time that Hinata ever witnessed him in a serious match. Unlike his team mates, she was unfamiliar with his abilities, techniques and stamina.




I'm sure she saw him fight in the academy with the other students, so I doubt it's the first time she saw him fight. Plus, I believe she saw his skills as well. 



> Sakura actually appears quite concerned with Naruto's match. She looks back at Kakashi for reassurance and picks up on his confident expression. _Then_ she smiles:




That doesn't look like concern in the first shot of her. If anything, she looked to Kakashi in a way that said, "I know he can do this". Still doesn't take away the fact that Hinata as well as everyone else didn't have faith in his abilities. If anything, it shows that both Kakashi and Sakura have faith in Naruto's abilities because they both know what he is capable of. 




> As a member of Team 7 and one of the main protagonists, she shows up earlier in the story than Hinata, but Hinata was created by Kishi long before Sakura. Sakura and Sasuke were additions suggested by editors, but Hinata existed in Kishi's mind prior to that.




Do you have some evidence of this?


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## Naiki (Jan 26, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> What I mean is that we can't judge the timeline outside of the story. The current arc has been going on for over a year, yet within the story itself it has been only one night. Hundreds of chapters ago is meaningless when talking about a past event. I'm thinking it is more like a month since the destruction of Konoha, but I could be wrong...





Yeah, I agree with that. Using time is irrelevant because the same can be so in the case of Naruto supposedly not displaying romantic inclination for Sakura in a long time. I mean, like you said, it could be months, weeks, or even days. That's why I don't buy the whole time argument because you don't know the time frame between events. 




> If Naruto remembers Hinata's arrival before Pain and the aftermath with her bleeding out on the ground, he very well remembers what she said in between those two occurrences.




That is the thing, he didn't remember it. He skipped over it and ignored it. 




> Naruto will be shown addressing Hinata's confession when Kishi wants it done. The romantic angle of his story is secondary to the main plot and he seems content to 'cram' the romantic resolutions into the equation late in the game. I also suspect that Kishi also wants to keep his pairing fans hanging for as long as possible.




Kishi had plenty of time to do that. It's even possible to compare Sasuke's reaction to Sakura's confession to Naruto's reaction to Hinata's confession. Sasuke never addressed Sakura's confession of love before leaving, and Naruto never addressed Hinata's. They both ignored the declarations of love from the girls, although Sasuke did it in a much harsher manner. 

They are both indirect rejections. 




> That blush actually appears _after_ Sakura makes the statements against Sasuke and then disappears as shock turns to anger in Naruto's face.




Yes, because the notion that Sakura loved him had just sunk in after she repeated what she said, and then his face became suspicious after she stated she didn't care about Sasuke anymore. It wouldn't make sense for him to start blushing at her saying she doesn't care about Sasuke, so it had to be that. 

I'm going by what makes sense in the context and by observations. Also, I know this is irrelevant, but in the anime, Naruto has delight and joy written on his face _before_ she mentions Sasuke. 




> I see the shock, but not the romantic delight there.




The romantic delight is what's in his eyes and the blush. 




> Context. These are two very different scenes. When Hinata confessed Naruto was completely demoralized and  pinned down, his chakra disrupted by Pain. He was full of physical and mental pain. He was past blushing at that point.  Circumstances are quite different when it comes to the Iron Country confession.




True, yet he still hasn't reflected on the confession of feelings and blush yet. 




> I was stating that he was attempting to explain the true relationship between himself and Sakura, not that he was being honest about the idea of Sakura being his girl. He knows full well that she is not his girlfriend and there is no real reason for him to claim that she is. He is hesitant as he tries to find the right way to define their relationship and he fails. Wham! Bam! Haha! There you have it.




But, he didn't explain. He could simply said three words in between Sakura's hitting him, but he didn't and that's what made Sakura strike him the way she did. She knew what he meant and Minato knew what he meant. In fact, the entire exchange reminded him of his wife, so it's clear verification on Naruto's part for having romantic feelings for Sakura. Even after the hit, Naruto didn't attempt to explain himself if it were truly the case of him explaining that their relationship wasn't like that, but he instead whined about being hit instead of healed.

He clearly meant what he said. 

Naruto could've simply said, "No, we're teammates," and the entire incident would have never happened.


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## SoulFire (Jan 26, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jan 26, 2014)

> Yes, but it's troublesome when Sakura's feelings are looked at as ambiguous, Naruto apparently still likes Sakura while showing _no_ indication of developing romantic ones for Hinata,  and Sakura's trust in Sasuke is gradually waning as we speak.



I see things just the opposite. I find Naruto's feelings more ambiguous and his interest in Hinata growing, while Sakura has been steadfast in her love for Sasuke, in spite of everything.



> Again, that is what I'm trying to say: the message isn't about romantic love, but comrades connected in battle and standing as one. It was symbolism on the chapters message, as I've said before. There have been plenty of times where I have had my hand grasped and squeezed through comfort, reassurance, or anything.



I consider that Kishi is double playing the term 'connected', as that chapter is as much about Naruto and Hinata connecting as it is about the connection of the shinobi alliance to one another in comradeship.



> Would it also have been romantic if Naruto had grabbed Obito's hand when he reached his out to him in that chapter?


Really...now that's just silly!



> And then, there's the fact that he grabs everyone else's hands, so that completely depletes the idea that this was romantic development between them. If anything, it still drives home the camaraderie from Nar --> Hin.here.



Naruto may have grabbed, tapped and slapped everyone elses' hands when transferring chakra, but he held only Hinatas, and held it for an extended time, continuing to hold it even after she had 'powered up'. 



> Yes, she might want to be more than that with Naruto, but he didn't display that behavior in the chapter, which is what I explained above and in other posts.


That's your view. I see it differently.



> That statement can be interpreted in an ambiguous way. Hinata has never expressed the desire for Naruto to be her boyfriend, but she has expressed the desire to be with him, stand with him, etc. which she has been doing all along.


The one thing that you can bet on in this manga is that Hinata is in love with Naruto and wants a romantic relationship with him (in fact, is now intent on having such a relationship). Nothing platonic about Hinata's feelings for him.



> I'm sure she saw him fight in the academy with the other students, so I doubt it's the first time she saw him fight. Plus, I believe she saw his skills as well.



Spars in the Academy were nothing like the Serious Business of the Chuunin exam fights. Hinata had never witnessed Naruto in such a situation--and she was fully aware of team mate Kiba's skills while only superficially acquainted with Naruto's abilities.



> That doesn't look like concern in the first shot of her. If anything, she looked to Kakashi in a way that said, "I know he can do this". Still doesn't take away the fact that Hinata as well as everyone else didn't have faith in his abilities. If anything, it shows that both Kakashi and Sakura have faith in Naruto's abilities because they both know what he is capable of.



Again, we see things differently. I see nothing wrong with Sakura and Hinata showing concern for Naruto's welfare as I think they both did in those panels. They both cared about him and didn't wish to see him hurt. Faith in him had nothing to do with it.



> Do you have some evidence of this?



Kishimoto posted his rough draft of Hinata which he presented to his editors in the first databook. I'm sure you've seen it--the one where she is in the dress with Naruto sitting in the background under a spiral sun. He had intended for her to be a civilian, not a Kunoichi. There is a copy of the pic toward the center of this page (but be warned that it is the NH manifesto ). 



He also had no plans for teams and intended to have Kakashi training Naruto solo but his editors wanted Naruto to have a 'rival'. In the Official Naruto Fanbook Kishi says "I started drawing Naruto without Sasuke, but the story didn't go anywhere...I talked to my editor, he suggested giving Naruto a rival. That person became Sasuke. Then I decided I needed a heroine and created Sakura."

Interestingly enough, in the Art of Naruto Uzumaki book Kishi says: "I didn't create Sakura to serve as the story's heroine, I suppose. I just thought it would be interesting to have a character who was slightly irritating, but who had a good head on her shoulders...but she's a great character...her energy and her flirtatious spirit around Sasuke are her defining characteristics."



> I'm going by what makes sense in the context and by observations. Also, I know this is irrelevant, but in the anime, Naruto has delight and joy written on his face _before_ she mentions Sasuke.


We definitely have a different view of delight and joy! 



> The romantic delight is what's in his eyes and the blush.



Just not seeing it. The kid is surprised and shocked at Sakura's sudden turn against Sasuke. 



> He clearly meant what he said.



Unfortunately, what he said was anything but clear!



> Naruto could've simply said, "No, we're teammates," and the entire incident would have never happened.



But where would the humor that Kishi was going for be in that?


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## Naiki (Jan 27, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Let's just say that I _don't_ know that Naruto still considers Sakura his #1 candidate for romance. In fact, *I think he dropped that quest long ago and is no longer in pursuit of such a relationship with her.*




But there isn't evidence that she's not either. Naruto has had other obligations on his mind, like going after Sasuke, the destruction of Konoha, and everything in between that. There hasn't been time for any other type of romantic development for him. 

Mainly, he has taken to loving her quietly in a corner rather than place himself out there and risk not having his feelings reciprocated, and then there's also the fact that:


*Spoiler*: __ 











> I also think that Kishi has laid out signs that bathe Naruto's recent interactions with Hinata in *a possibly romantic light* (reading one anothers eyes; teasing from Kiba; expressed concern when Hinata joins Neji and Hiashi to defend him; the face caressing and hand holding).  Nothing I have seen involving NS has been able to trump these scenes. When I see NaruSaku, comradery and not romance is what comes to mind.




Possibly is the keyword, SoulFire.  There is a possibility that it might shift towards a more romantic nature, but it hasn't taken that route as of yet.  The examples that you have listed are looked way into. Naruto wasn't reading Hinata's eyes, but merely commented that he can see the strength she has in her eyes. It's more or less a friendly way of commending her for her bravery and strength. Naruto's commenting on looking into Hinata's eyes and seeing strength was nothing like this:



Kiba's teasing was nothing like this:



I already explained why the hand holding can't be deemed as romantic because the context and message doesn't allow it to be so, and it was Hinata doing the face caressing remember? Which Naruto didn't really react to, but had an awkward expression on his face. 

As for Naruto's concern about her joining Hiashi and Neji:



  He even knocks Sakura out of danger. 

You can't really use that as an example because he has exhibited that same type of behavior towards Sakura, and Sai at times. 

But, since you listed his concern for Hinata as something which grooms his new light for her in a positive manner, would you consider this one for Sakura too? I mean, she's clearly concerned. 






> Could be because Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are treated in a serious manner and Naruto's feelings for her are for the most part (especially in part two) treated with humor, if at all.




Yes, and Hinata's feelings are only significant to her and only her, apparently. Naruto hasn't appeared to take them into consideration, at all. 




> Nor do I find Sakura's feelings ambiguous. She is obviously still in love with Sasuke and has clearly made it known to the reading audience and those around her.




Well, Naruto's feelings aren't ambiguous either because he clearly loves Sakura still and hasn't yet looked at Hinata in that type of manner.  Out of the three, Sakura is shown to have the most ambiguous emotions and this is verified by other characters. No one has verified that Naruto has had ambiguous feelings toward Hinata, and it is still apparent that he thinks of her merely as a comrade. 

Naruto's actions and the way he interacts as well as looks gives it all away. He doesn't interact with her like he would if he were in love with her and he wouldn't say the things he says. Naruto's feelings are important here and according to context clues and reading comprehension, he doesn't appear to be viewing her in a more romantic manner. 




> One of Naruto's goals is to save Sasuke--nothing is going to deter him from that quest. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been open and obvious throughout the manga: *Her reactions when Sai dissed him*; her expression when they finally caught up with him in Oro's lair; her tears when she learns that he has joined the Akatsuki; her reaction to the love letter nin, etc.




You forgot that her reaction when Sai dissed him was all on the behest of Naruto. 




She didn't lash out based on her own emotions, but primarily for Naruto's own anger. She is very gentle with Naruto's emotions, as Sai says, but much to her unawareness. 



It's apparent that Sakura considers Naruto's emotions all of the time, just like she did in the confession. 




> I can agree that there is no evidence or proof that Sakura feels anything but *the love of strong friendship* for Naruto--but I think it is because her heart remains with Sasuke, in spite of everything.




There isn't really solid proof but there are several events that give off ambiguous interpretations based upon Sakura's actions and feelings. She still loves Sasuke, that may be true, but her feelings for Naruto remain ambiguous which explains the "Naruto's close, but she still loves Sasuke as expected". 




> Are you saying that you believe that Naruto was joking there? I don't think so...while the entire page of panels was intended to create a humorous and nostalgic scene, I think Naruto was trying to give an honest answer. I just don't consider what he said to be a declaration of his love/relationship with Sakura or an example of wishful thinking put to words--it was an attempted explanation gone wrong for comedy's sake.




Not saying that I believe he was joking, but people tend to throw out there and he is joking, but I don't see the joke except for Sakura's usual reaction. Naruto's response wasn't meant to be taken as funny, but Sakura's headbutt is what is supposed to be the comic relief. 

I just don't see that. Naruto normally says what he means. He said what he meant and Sakura reacted accordingly. Like I said, if it were an attempted explanation gone wrong, I'm sure he would've tried to cover his ass even _afterwards_ and that's because he meant what he said. 




> Minato was reminded of Kushina's legendary temper. That is all.




And that alludes to the fact that Naruto and Sakura have the same type of relationship as Minato and Kushina. Sakura hitting Naruto is equivalent to Kushina hitting Minato and it was a parallel between them which still rings true that Sakura is still the number one romantic candidate for Naruto. 




> Why should I list others. Those are indeed proof of mutual development. The quality of these moments speaks for for itself.




Yes, those are the only two times were there may have been some mutual development but not nearly as much as NarSak. 




> Kishi did not begin to turn some attention to his pairings until late in the story. He has laid things out slowly,* beginning with the surprise of Hinata's stand against Pain and her confession*. Next he focused on making crystal clear where Sakura's heart lay with her Iron Country confession. *From there he has done nothing but focus on the certainty of the girls' feelings* and brought Naruto together with Hinata again and again. This is still a work in progress--there is much yet to come. I can't wait to see where Kishi is taking us!




Exactly, but why did he wait so long into the middle of the second part to make Hinata confess? On top of that, afterwards, Naruto hasn't even addressed the love itself yet, but rather the bravery of her act. 

What Kishimoto made crystal clear in that Sakura confession was that Sakura may still have held love for Sasuke, but it proved to us that Sakura has and will always think of Naruto's feelings before her own. It also opened up the doors of what Sakura's feelings are for Naruto because they were never even addressed as untrue or as a lie by Naruto himself. The only thing deemed a lie was her feelings for Sasuke, but everything she said about Naruto was the exact truth. She listed everything he did that made her feel comfortable and safe, also how much she admired him because he had grown up into such a wonderful person right in front of her.

Those words were the truth and I genuinely think that she feels that way. 

As for the bolded. No, he has not. He has focused on no one's feelings, especially not Hinata's. He hasn't even addressed Hinata's feelings at all and that's because he clearly doesn't feel the same way. If you love someone and/or falling for them, you would address that person and say, "Hey, remember the time you told me you loved me? Well, guess what? I feel the same way!"

But, Naruto has not done that, but chose to ignore it instead.


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## Naiki (Jan 27, 2014)

> Naruto has usually hidden his insecurities behind bold words and big, phoney grins. He does that less now, since he faced his fears and hatred at the Waterfall of Truth. Of course, Hinata could not address all of his self doubts (he had to do it on his own) , but she returned his confidence in himself on the training grounds and recently on the battlefield. Her words did and still do touch him.




Naruto is in no way a phony person and I believe he has tones and tones of self-confidence, otherwise, Hinata would never have started liking him and watching him. Truthfully, the only thing Naruto is self conscious about is the fact that everyone might just be toying with him and that they like him because he is a hero now. Naruto has never expressed insecurities of lack of self-confidence or a lack in self-esteem. 

Not even his lack of intelligence, which I pointed out that he doesn't even look at as a hindrance, but rather a trait of him. His lack of intelligence doesn't stop him from reaching for the stars and dreaming of becoming Hokage. It's not an insecurity, but a trait. Personally, I don't think he cares that he's not smart. That's what he has Shikamaru for. 




> We simply cannot say that Naruto has no interest in Hinata at this point. She has gotten his attention. We do not know the reason why he has not addressed her confession (or even if he _has_ addressed if off panel).




Hinata has made Naruto proud and he commends her for her bravery, strength and the desire to be by his side, but it's clear that he doesn't take interest in her like _that_.  He looks at her as this wishy-washy girl that has changed and shown herself to be strong and worthy of being a fellow shinobi and comrade with a good heart.

That's just it. 




> That doesn't even sound like something Naruto would say.




No, of course he wouldn't say that, but what I'm getting at is that Naruto has not made any type of feedback to Hinata's feelings. Sakura gave feedback to Naruto's love with that line and Naruto gave feedback to Sakura's love with: "I hate people who lie to themselves (but I think that was more along the lines of her love for Sasuke, but that's just my interpretation), and Sasuke never gave response to Sakura's love and you see where their relationship is now, right?

Naruto basically did the same thing Sasuke did when it came to the confessions of each girl. They were both ignored and overlooked as they continued on with what they were doing.


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## Naiki (Jan 27, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I see things just the opposite. I find Naruto's feelings more ambiguous and his interest in Hinata growing, while Sakura has been steadfast in her love for Sasuke, in spite of everything.




Well, you have that right to your interpretation. 




> I consider that Kishi is double playing the term 'connected', as that chapter is as much about Naruto and Hinata connecting as it is about the connection of the shinobi alliance to one another in comradeship.




Yes, Naruto and Hinata are connected just as the other comrades are connected to each other. 




> Naruto may have grabbed, tapped and slapped everyone elses' hands when transferring chakra, but he held only Hinatas, and held it for an extended time, continuing to hold it even after she had 'powered up'.




Only for a few minutes, and it didn't even show panels of them still holding hands after the panel, so . . . show me panels? 




> That's your view. I see it differently.




Alright. 




> The one thing that you can bet on in this manga is that Hinata is in love with Naruto and wants a romantic relationship with him (in fact, is now intent on having such a relationship). Nothing platonic about Hinata's feelings for him.




No one is saying that her feelings are platonic, but her statement about standing and holding hands with Naruto is definitely camaraderie based, at least off of the observations I've made and it's connection to a certain chapter.  It's possible to have romantic feelings but make a comrade-based statement about someone you love. 




> Spars in the Academy were nothing like the Serious Business of the Chuunin exam fights. Hinata had never witnessed Naruto in such a situation--and she was fully aware of team mate Kiba's skills while only superficially acquainted with Naruto's abilities.




The fact of the matter is, for her to admire and have so much faith in him, she certainly didn't during that time when his team did. 




> Again, we see things differently. I see nothing wrong with Sakura and Hinata showing concern for Naruto's welfare as I think they both did in those panels. They both cared about him and didn't wish to see him hurt. Faith in him had nothing to do with it.




Okay, I'm cool with that. 





> Kishimoto posted his rough draft of Hinata which he presented to his editors in the first databook. I'm sure you've seen it--the one where she is in the dress with Naruto sitting in the background under a spiral sun. He had intended for her to be a civilian, not a Kunoichi. There is a copy of the pic toward the center of this page (but be warned that it is the NH manifesto ).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah, I see. Alright then. I kinda of have to question why Kishimoto would make Sakura a supporting character and Hinata a side character then. 




> We definitely have a different view of delight and joy!




Yep!  Apparently. 





> Just not seeing it. The kid is surprised and shocked at Sakura's sudden turn against Sasuke.




That doesn't make sense. She initially said that she loved him and that's what brought on the shock and delight and when she mentioned her discarded love for Sasuke, that's when things turned sour. 



and even after she talks about Sasuke, Naruto is still locked into his shock and delight until he settles into more of a suspicious mode. 



You then see here that his shock wears off from her confession, and he goes suspicious. 

here.




> Unfortunately, what he said was anything but clear!




It pretty much is. Just some people interpret it that. Kishimoto isn't that subtle of a guy and since when have you known Naruto to be dodgy with his emotions and not straight forward? The only emotions he did dodge was Hinata's. 




> But where would the humor that Kishi was going for be in that?




Well, the humor wouldn't be in his answer, but rather Sakura's reaction. Naruto gives a serious answer and Sakura poundcakes him (the punchline of the entire thing, although the build-up wasn't meant to be funny in the first place).


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## SoulFire (Jan 28, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > But there isn't evidence that she's not either.* Naruto has had other obligations on his mind, like going after Sasuke, the destruction of Konoha, and everything in between that. There hasn't been time for any other type of romantic development for him. *
> ...


----------



## SoulFire (Jan 28, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Naruto is in no way a phony person and I believe he has tons and tons of self-confidence, otherwise, Hinata would never have started liking him and watching him.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> > Problem is that this can be claimed in regard to both pairings. Naruto has had a lot on his plate--his love life has been put on the back burner (by both the character and the author) while the major plot line unfolds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 29, 2014)

> I find Sakura's feelings anything but ambiguous. The Kishi quote needs no explanation. It just means that *she is close to Naruto*, but her heart remains with Sasuke, as one should expect.




It doesn't get any more ambiguous than that. It doesn't state if he's close in a platonic way or romantically. 




> The entire thing is meant to be funny. Naruto's inept attempt at an explanation followed by Sakura's expected attack and Minato's uncomfortable memory of Kushina's temper.




What's funny is Sakura's reaction, as it has always been. And at any rate, Naruto doesn't take lying about your feelings too lightly, so why would he poke fun that way? Kinda hypocritical, right?




> Naruto _was_ trying to say what he meant, he just did a lousy job of it. Because it was primarily a comedic relief scene and not meant to be taken seriously, it ended there without further exchanges between those involved.




As I said, if that were the case, he would've tried to cover his own ass afterwards, but he didn't. He meant what he said, clearly. 



> Problem is that we have never seen an indication that Kushina hit Minato. Any display of her temper, both canon and filler, is directed at her bullies (and Naruto). Of course Minato knows well her temper, having witnessed it for himself, but there is no evidence that he, himself, was on the receiving end.




Doesn't need to be an implication. What is implied is that she had a fiery temper and that she struck people on a whim just as Sakura does. I mean, she hit Naruto so it's safe to say that she hit Minato too. Unless, of course, he was always too fast to get to. 




> I see the comparison of NS and NH of little worth, as I view the individual development of these relationships to be of completely different natures. It's a case of apples and oranges. Kishi has only recently began to move on his pairing plans, which is why we suddenly have Hinata more front an center within the war arc.




Well, obviously, the only reason Hinata has been front and center recently is to be a tease for the pairings, nothing more. The only time she ever really shows up is when Sakura is in the chapter as well and something goes on. When Sakura shows up, Hinata shows up. The last chapter was an example of this.  So, it goes both ways. 




> She does feel that way. But those qualities have not made her fall in love with him.




You don't know that and I don't know that. Sakura has never expressed her feelings on Naruto, which is why her feelings are labeled as ambiguous. 




> I'm referring to Kishi here and how he is writing his story, not Naruto's actions/reasonings.




I understand that and part of understanding the character's feelings and emotions is by analyzing his actions and reasonings.


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## Naiki (Jan 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> What Hinata has always found inspiring about Naruto is the fact that he picks himself up, even when he fails, 'never gives up' and follows through, 'never going back on his word'. His strength in facing down his fears and doubts is what attracted her to him in the first place.




Exactly, but that's entirely different from believing in his ability to actually win a fight. That's the thing about Sakura and Hinata; they each believe in him in different ways. Sakura believes in Naruto's strength and that he can win any fight, while Hinata believes in Naruto's ability to neer give up and keep his word. 




> Fact is Naru_ has _expressed insecurities and a lack of self-confidence--to Hinata and a select few others.




Yes, but that was his insecurity about fighting Neji. He never expressed any insecurity dealing with his own personalities or traits; intelligence-wise or anything. 





> Oh, I  think it bothers Naruto that he thinks differently, but he's not one to let it get him down--*that's part of his never give up attitude*. And he does know now that he can depend upon his friends.




That' right! And, apart of his never give up attitude wouldn't be to give up on the girl he likes so easily right? (which he hasn't been hinted at doing anyways). 




> Just...no. Naruto has never considered Hinata in those terms. Her shyness puzzled and confused him, but wishy-washy? He thought better of her than that, even back when he knew her only superficially (mentally correcting himself about her trying to trick him during the written Chuunin exam).




That's what he described her as; weird actually.  here, in that last panel, he clearly called her weird, plain-looking, and dark. 



As I've said before, Kishi has used the girls as the catalysts for his pairing progression. I don't think that we're going to see the guys get open about it until the story begins to really wind down.



> Okay. We start here:
> here
> here
> here
> ...



Yes, that's what I mean. That don't continue to old hands into the next chapter. Only for a minute or so at most. 



> And here is where Naruto lets go of that hand--in order to create shadow clones:
> here





There isn't a panel of him letting go of her hand. In fact, when you see them, they are standing there not holding hands. 




> Note that he sends _them_ to transfer his chakra to everyone else while_ *he stays by Hinata's side the entire time*_. On top of this, there are actually nine panels of Hinata cupping Naruto's face in her hand.
> 
> These are intimate scenes of character connection. The amount of time they take within the story is not as significant as the author's emphasis on them.




And that bolded part alludes to romantic inclination . . . How? If that were the case, Madara and Obito would have fell in love with each other a long time ago. You can't use that as an illustration of intimate connection between two people. I'm sorry. 

As for the hand cupping the face, if anything, that would be romantic inclination from Hinata's part, not Naruto's. There was no mutual romantic inclination there. 



> Sure, Hinata is giving Naruto a pep talk/TnJ--and she is one of his comrades--but there's also one heck of a lot of romantic feel put into her words and actions.




Yeah, she feels the romantic emotions but that doesn't stop her from making comrade speeches either. I mean, she _is_ a comrade. 




> Here he blushes in surprise and makes with the elipses AFTER Sakura
> begins to degenerate Sasuke: "I'm saying there's nothing between Sasuke and me anymore! I don't know what I was thinking, liking a person like that."




That's the way you interpret that and it's hard to tell: but it makes more sense that he is settling off of his shock and joy before she talks of letting Sasuke go. What made Naruto blush was the idea of Sakura loving him and giving up on Sasuke, but then it all sunk in when she started on giving up the promise and badmouthing Sasuke. 



> From there he just gets angry:
> 
> here.





Yeah, and it was after she started badmouthing Sasuke about being a criminal and the lot.




> Very pretty NaruSaku set, btw! The fandoms all have such lovely and talented artists!!




Thank you!  I agree, both fandoms have beautiful art pieces.


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## SoulFire (Jan 30, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Which explains why him suddenly shifting his love interest to Hinata wouldn't make sense. He hasn't had time to think of how much more amazing Hinata is than Sakura. The only things he did acknowledge about her is that she is strong and that she is someone who's willing to die for him and protect him, just as Neji did. Other than that, he hasn't had time to process anything. I'm   sure after the war everything will be out in the open for development, but around that time, It would be too late.
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jan 30, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't get any more ambiguous than that. It doesn't state if he's close in a platonic way or romantically.
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> All it proves is that Naruto has been too involved with the current unwinding events to focus his attention on romance. I sincerely doubt that he would be weighing the worth of one girl against the other. He actually finds both of them amazing in their own ways.
> 
> Kishi is meshing his romance with his action in this arc. Let's just see where it goes from here.




I agree. We can debate this with different perspectives until we're blue in the face, but in the end, Naruto is the one with the last say and whoever he is paired with. 




> Hmm...what I see in the official translation is Naruto telling Sakura "anyway, it doesn't matter...even if there's no promise between us anymore cuz I want to rescue Sasuke for my own sake."




Well, the only reason he said that was because, like I said, it isn't all about Sakura but him too. Before, the PoaL did matter:


*Spoiler*: __ 








But now that Sakura has dismissed the request to bring Sasuke back, Naruto dismssed it also because it's what Sakura wanted. Notice that Naruto always acts on what Sakura wants and what makes Sakura happiness. You can't just say that Naruto dismssed the PoaL when Sakura was the one to dismiss her "request" first. 

So, no, Naruto didn't dismiss the PoaL, but Sakura dismissed her "request"  herself and Naruto went along with it. From the start, Sakura's request was secondary to Naruto's desire to pursue Sasuke for his own sake, but it was still something that Naruto did based off of his selfless feelings for her. Since Sakura dismissed her request to bring Sasuke back, Naruto dismissed it as well. Naruto always goes with whatever makes Sakura happy, and if giving up on the PoaL was what made her happy in this context, then Naruto went with it. 

Naruto would never dismiss Sakura's request to bring Sasuke back if she still wanted to bring him back. If that were the case, he would've done it a long time ago. 



> That sounds like Naruto dismissing the PoaL to me. Sakura may have told him that she wanted him to drop the PoaL, but his answer was that it no longer mannered anyway. He was angry and *was not thinking about making her happy by bowing to her wishes* (especially since she admitted that her real wish was for him to drop his pursuit of Sasuke). He was hardly content and fine with the idea of her abandoning their shared quest to save Sasuke.




Naruto was not angry. He was suspicious and thought something was strange about the way Sakura was acting. And, Naruto was happy bowing to Sakura's secondary wishes before . . . remember? That was the whole reason for him giving the PoaL. If anything, his dismissal of the PoaL after she dismissed it illustrates Naruto's desire to go along with whatever Sakura goes along with. Before, his secondary promise to Sakura mattered and the picture I posted above illustrated that, as well as this:



But, it wasn't until after she dismissed the PoaL and revealed her desire for him to give up on Sasuke, is when he turned another leaf and told her what he told her. It's because Sakura's promise is secondary to his own desire to bring Sasuke back, which is why it didn't matter either way. Because, after-all, Naruto gave that promise to Sakura out of his selfless feelings for her and his desire to make her happy. 



> What I mean is that more is often read into these scenes than actually exists.




Well, not really. What you see is what you get. There really isn't reading into something too much when you see a character reacting to one character one way and reacting to the other a different way. That's just the way it is. 




> Not really. Yamato looks downright angry.




Yamato wasn't reacting to her confession of love itself, but rather her insistance that Naruto give up on pursuing Sasuke. His expression when she told Naruto that she loved him was one of shock as well as confusion. As I said before, it was bad timing on Sakura's part and it prompted a reaction out of EVERYONE, including Lee, who had even accompanied her to see Naruto. 

here, this is when he really gets angry. The expression on his face here: this, is more along the lines of 'did you come all the way here tell him that?!" His reaction there was more along the lines of bad timing. There's also the fact that Sakura interrupted Naruto's training to 'talk', which I'm certain that most people forgot. 




> The line _was_ cut off exactly to create suspense. Think 'tease'. Yamato was attempting to make Sakura feel less useless--he was indicating that her concern for Naruto was as important as anything else she might be able to do--but he had only been with them for several days if that and didn't know either of them well enough to assume love.




Yes, that's my point. The line was cut off to create romantic suspense. You don't have to know two people a long time to know when somebody is in love with somebody else based on their actions. If a person is acting like they're in love with somebody, then it's easy to pick up. Showing concern, the desire to be useful to said person, and mulling over what you can do for said person are characteristics to being in love with somebody. It's something that doesn't require familiarity to pick up. 

It's something that both Hinata and Sakura have in common. Hinata worries over being useful to Naruto and the desire to protect him while Sakura worries about what she can do for him and how the only things she can do for him are insignificant. 



> I've already said there was a duel meaning to Kishi's title of 'connected', referring to the connection of the Alliance _and_ the personal connection between Naruto and Hinata. That's where I'm coming from.




Yes, and the personal connection between Naruto and Sakura is based off of camaraderie. That's where I'm coming from too.  In my opinion, that entire chapter was the epitome of Naruto and Hinata's relationship and that was what Kishimoto was making clear. 




> It wasn't about either of them being 'into it. The act of Hinata touching Naruto's face employed a gesture universally seen as romantic and Kishi put great emphasis on it.




It's already been illustrated enough that Hinata loves Naruto, so what was the big deal about it? Naruto didn't give any special reaction to it and it wasn't displayed as mutual romantic development, anyways. Also, Hinata didn't even stroke Naruto's face, so . . . She just slapped him and left her hand there. 




> Did Naruto react when Neji and Hiashi stepped forward to defend him? No. But when Hinata joined them we were given a panel showing *Naruto's concerned reaction (double exclamation points)--he even called out her name. Kishi added that panel for a reason and I don't think it was to minimize Naruto's feelings for the rest of his friends. *




So, what exactly are you trying to say? Naruto is falling in love with her because he showed concern for her like that? If that were the case, Sakura's faling in love with Naruto, too. I mean, when Naruto stepped up to fight Sasuke in place of Kakashi, she called out his name like that. The number of exclamation points are irrelevant.  




She even shed tears at the thought of Naruto willing to die with Sasuke. She sure wasn't concerned about Sasuke dying, at all, but Naruto.






> All I have to do is look at recent interactions and I find it very clear. Kishi has provided something for _both_ pairings to see in an encouraging light.




That's cool with me. We both just interpret it in different ways is all.




> I see it as Sakura acting on her own behalf. Basically, she's saying 'never you mind about Naruto--it's _me_ you have to watch out for if you badmouth Sasuke again!'




I don't see that. Or else, Sai's line and everything said later wouldn't have made sense.


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## Naiki (Jan 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> > I don't find it ambiguous at all. Sakura is close to Naruto, BUT *as expected*, she loves Sasuke. That but defines the difference in feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jan 30, 2014)

Ah! You're fast today! I've actually taken the day off due to a dentist appointment, so I had time to noodle around on the computer earlier than usual, myself!



> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. We can debate this with different perspectives until we're blue in the face, but in the end, Naruto is the one with the last say and whoever he is paired with.
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jan 30, 2014)

Naiki said:


> > The bolded part is what adds the ambiguity to Sakura's feelings. It doesn't state whether Naruto is close to her romantically or platonically, but it is suggested that it's romantically given that it is "as expected" that she loves Sasuke. That's my point. It wouldn't make sense to say that she loves Naruto platonically, but 'as expected' she loves Sasuke. That line doesn't make sense, and again, adds the ambiguity to her feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Naiki (Jan 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Ah! You're fast today! I've actually taken the day off due to a dentist appointment, so I had time to noodle around on the computer earlier than usual, myself!




Fortunately, I didn't have class today so I was free to roam the internet the entire time. 




> Agreed!! And with the way Kishi is moving, we may yet have a long wait!!




More than likely. Kishimoto is known to stall things and it looks as though we still have a ways to go; dealing with this fight with Madara as well as the upcoming duel with Naruto and Sasuke. Personally, I think everything will be settled when that particular battle comes around.




> Naruto initiated the PoaL as a favor to Sakura, as he was  (we both agree) already determined to bring Sasuke back for his own sake. He was being thoughtful, kind and caring in making that pledge, but he was not really pursuing Sasuke only for her sake, which is what she mistakenly assumed.




Exactly, and Naruto told her that it wasn't just about her promise. I can agree with you on this.




> Sakura may have requested that Naruto call off the PoaL, but it is obvious that *he had no problem with dropping it, as it was not his main impetus for saving Sasuke in the first place* (I think the importance of the PoaL had faded by the time of Sakura's confession). As he told her, 'it doesn't matter'. He dismissed its importance without a trace of remorse. If Naruto went along with whatever makes Sakura happy he would have accepted her love confession or at least went back to Konoha as she asked.




I agree with this, but the NarSak in me believes that it also has to do with what Sakura wanted as well. She, apparently, wanted to throw out the PoaL and Naruto went along with it. However, the statement in the parenthesis, I'll have to disagree with. It was only a few chapters ago, when Karui was giving Naruto a savage beating for not giving up information on Sasuke, that Naruto flashed back to Sakura's crying face as she gave him that request. I wouldn't necessarily say that it didn't matter up until that confession, but apparently, it didn't matter after Sakura requested that he drop it as well.

As for the last part, Naruto knew that Sakura was lying all along about Sasuke anyways and at this point, he was acting mainly for his own sake. As stated before, Naruto is going after Sasuke basically for his own merit and that's exactly why he wouldn't go back. 

According to Sai, Sakura knew that he would react this way anyways. 




> That flashback occurred quite a while ago, and wasn't even from Naruto's memory/perspective. His priorities just may have changed with time.




It still doesn't disprove the fact that when it comes to his feelings for Sakura, the PoaL does matter and he doesn't feel worthy enough to confess his feelings to her because of his inability to keep his promises. 

When it comes to him and his feelings toward Sasuke, however, the PoaL becomes secondary because Sasuke is his first bond and it's understandable for him to feel that way. 

You see, the PoaL (based on Naruto's feelings for Sakura) and Naruto's own personal pursuit of Sasuke (based on his own brotherly feelings for Sasuke) are two different things and are separate. 




> It honestly cannot be confirmed as to_ what_ Yamato is reacting to as we cannot read his mind, but he sure looks pretty angry to me:
> 
> chapter 6




According to the context, it appears as though he is reacting to Sakura insisting that Naruto cease pursuing Sasuke. It would be understandable for him to be pissed off at that.




> Those qualities can also be attributed to close friends, team mates and family. Yamato did not know his new team. However, he did know that Naruto and Sakura had a history of being team mates and I think that it was in that way that he addressed Sakura's feelings of uselessness.




True, but it is something that Sakura shares with Hinata, who has romantic feelings for Naruto. It is those exact feelings of uselessness that Yamato picks up as Sakura possibly loving Naruto and what draws him to that conclusion. The same goes for Hinata. Sakura has the desire to do significant things for Naruto and Hinata has the desire to always protect Naruto and be there for him. Both are elements of romantic love.





> Kishi makes use of universal representations of romantic behaviors such as holding hands, reading eyes, touching faces, etc. to project the sense of romance to the reader. Put Sakura in any of those situations and consider whether you would view them as romantic.




Yes, but they are all received as romantic only on Hinata's end of the spectrum. Not only that, but Naruto wasn't reading Hinata's eyes; he merely commented on seeing the strength in them. To add to the flame, it was also Hinata who touched Naruto's face. She didn't even caress his face, really. 

Even if it were Sakura, I still would say the same thing because Naruto did not react in a way that told me he was receiving this 'romantic' vibe from Hinata. Now, if it were Sakura and he did something like reach back and caress her face as well, then I can understand. Or, if he did something along the lines of giving her dreamy, bedroom eyes or something, then yes.

That is what the mutual romantic development would consist of, but that wasn't the case in this instance. 





> I said nothing about Naruto falling in love with Hinata. But he is far more aware of her presence now and is feeling concern at her jumping in to again place her life on the line for him.
> 
> Naruto is Sakura's team mate, dear friend and precious person. Of course she shows concern for him, but Naruto showing concern in this manner is something new.




Yes, he is aware of her presence and the strength that she holds. He now realizes that she is an internally strong person and it is something that he has come to appreciate, that's for sure. He is showing concern because, yes, he is aware of her capabilities and he now knows that she's willing to die for him, as any comrade would.

Hinata has already given her confession, but Naruto still treats her like a comrade, despite realizing her priorities and the things that she cherish the most. 

The same can be said for Naruto in Hinata's case. She is a close friend and a comrade of his. It's nothing new because we saw Naruto show concern for Hinata during the Chunin exams, and even then, it was nothing but pure camaraderie. There is nothing different in the way Naruto showed concern for Hinata and cheered for her in the Chunin exams and how he showed concern for her now.




> It would be dull if everyone in the world looked at things in the same way (though perhaps more peaceful at times! )




Yeah, that's why I'm glad to be debating with you.


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## Naiki (Jan 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I don't see saying that it is to be expected that Sakura loves Sasuke at all ambiguous. I see it as making an extremely obvious point. Being 'close' to Naruto naturally means that she accepts him as a friend and precious person. Makes perfect sense.




It is ambiguous because it is saying that she loves Sasuke romantically, but Naruto is close. In other words, that statement is insinuating that Naruto is close in her heart to where Sasuke is. 

That statement itself is ambiguous because it never states whether he is close romantically or with platonic feelings.




> The point I was making was that there was a lot of Hinata/Naruto in those scenes and very little Sakura to be seen: 'There have also been recent chapters with huge amounts of NH flavored happenings and no Sakura in sight beyond one relatively small side panel. The girls do not always show up within one another's developmental scenes.' Neither I or apparently Hinata take that comedic scene and its commentary seriously.




I already explained why that scene can't be seen as comedy relief, save for Sakura's reaction, and I just don't feel like going over it again. The only thing I will say is that Naruto's answer is the only thing that needs to be heeded and it once again clarifies what everyone should already know since Ch. 3.





> Sakura is running low on chakra, herself (though she has her Byakugo forehead seal and can possibly also summon Katsuyu). I'm still expecting Minato to somehow seal the yin Kyuubi into Naruto or for Kakashi to perform Chiyo's technique. Can't believe we have to wait another week!




More than likely, Minato will be the savior of the day. I'm actually psyched to see how Sakura will react when she finds out that Kurama was extracted from Naruto. Because, remember, you saw how upset she was when she found out that the Jinchuriki dies after having their Bijuu extracted, so . . . 





> Hinata has faith in Naruto's abilities or she would not believe that she will be by his side after the war. Both girls have shown concern and stressed over Naruto at times. Nothing wrong with that.




We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. 




> Look again: chapter 6
> 
> Naruto was revealing to Hinata the 'tough' act he put on to hide his frustration at being a failure and admitting that he was not the strong and influential guy she perceived him to be. He was showing her his self-doubt and not just about the coming battle with Neji.




Yes, but you said earlier that he considered his intelligence and the other things that Sakura often pokes fun of him for as insecurities, which he has never expressed as. 




> Certainly Naruto has continued to love Sakura, but it is possible that this love has evolved and changed with time and circumstance. We just don't know for certain at this time.




There is no doubt that Naruto's love for Sakura has changed, but in more of a good way. Over the years, his love has become more selfless and much more mature. He is able to be much more upfront about his feelings as well. There is no doubt that his childhood crush had developed into genuine love and tenderness for Sakura. If you'll notice, whenever Sakura is upset about Sasuke, he always has this forlorn expression on his face and that's because he genuinely cares. He was even jealous when Sakura only acknowledged that Sasuke saved her when the _both_ of them did. 

Again, this was after the NarHin fiasco. 






> Why would Kishi show a panel of Naruto releasing her hand when it is obvious that he does so to create his shadow clones?
> 
> Hinata's wish won't be fulfilled until she stands beside Naruto after war's end.



I thought it was something you were trying to argue. 




> There were not nearly the panels of Sakura hugging Naruto, and he showed no more romantic response to her hug than he did to Hinata's touch. The difference is the extended attention Kishi has given to the hand holding and face touching, going so far as  to return to it (with further embellishment of Naruto locking eyes with Hinata and squeezing her fingers) in following chapters and to make the hand hold a volume cover.




Of course he wouldn't show a romantic response because he knew that she wasn't telling the entire truth about everything. Also, there was no intimate face-touching, unless I'm missing the motion lines and the hand-holding was symbolic of camaraderie, as I've said before. I also said, again, that Naruto's interactions were never looked at as romantic.

I'm sorry. I just can't understand how Naruto locking eyes with her equals = romantic development. It was during a moment of camaraderie and Naruto was giving her a big confident smile during that time. All of that was symbolism of the camaraderie between them and the message of that chapter.


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## Kurama (Jan 31, 2014)

Just for the record, the word used to describe Naruto being "close" means in terms of physical proximity, as he is there as a teammate while Sasuke was far away. Not in terms of their actual relationship, which while they are close friends and comrades Sakura has made it clear she does not harbor romantic affection for Naruto. On the other hand whether you want to debate the nature of the girlfriend exchange or not [I co-sign the belief that he was attempting to clarify himself after the "more or less" being a bit of a tease, but was cut off by Sakura's violent reaction, its Naruto making the girl-friend distinction, regardless of the term Minato used. It was a simple instance of comic relief like their usual routine], Naruto's development with Hinata in this war shows him very much positively receptive of her feelings at the very least, so you really can't legitimately argue that he only sees Hinata as a comrade because unlike Sakura with her violent reactions and total lack of Naruto in her romantic thought when approached on it generally, there's no distinct evidence clearly showing a romantic disinterest in Hinata on Naruto's part [and before anyone tries to bring up 631, Minato was asking specifically about Sakura and Naruto gets cut off anyway]. He obviously hasn't set her down and explained to her anything along the lines of how he can't return her feelings due to lingering affection for Sakura or what have you, because then Hinata wouldn't take their interactions as a sign of her chances being high enough that she's so confident to speak with absolute certainty of her being by his side at war's end. The fact that he does give her such a warm reception while fully aware of her affections heavily implies he's welcoming of them, which is easily enough a sign that he's open to reciprocation.


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## Naiki (Jan 31, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Just for the record, *the word used to describe Naruto being "close" means in terms of physical proximity, as he is there as a teammate while Sasuke was far away. *Not in terms of their actual relationship, which while they are close friends and comrades Sakura has made it clear she does not harbor romantic affection for Naruto. On the other hand whether you want to debate the nature of the girlfriend exchange or not [I co-sign the belief that he was *attempting to clarify himself after the "more or less" being a bit of a tease, but was cut off by Sakura's violent reaction, its Naruto making the girl-friend distinction, regardless of the term Minato used. It was a simple instance of comic relief like their usual routine],* Naruto's development with Hinata in this war shows him very much positively receptive of her feelings at the very least, so you really can't legitimately argue that he only sees Hinata as a comrade because unlike Sakura with her violent reactions and total lack of Naruto in her romantic thought when approached on it generally, there's no distinct evidence clearly showing a romantic disinterest in Hinata on Naruto's part [and before anyone tries to bring up 631, Minato was asking specifically about Sakura and Naruto gets cut off anyway]. He obviously hasn't set her down and explained to her anything along the lines of how he can't return her feelings due to lingering affection for Sakura or what have you, because then Hinata wouldn't take their interactions as a sign of her chances being high enough that she's so confident to speak with absolute certainty of her being by his side at war's end. *The fact that he does give her such a warm reception while fully aware of her affections heavily implies he's welcoming of them, which is easily enough a sign that he's open to reciprocation.*


 

Exactly. Her feelings for Naruto were never touched on and that is just your assumption. Still, it doesn't make sense to say that Naruto is in close proximity, but she still loves Sasuke. It doesn't. The topic is on relationships and Sakura's relation to Naruto and Sasuke. That is what makes it ambiguous. The topic of romantic love is written within the context of Kishimoto's sentence and the only thing Kishimoto says regarding Sakura's feelings toward Naruto is that he is close which automatically makes one assume that it's either ambiguous or also included within the romantic context that Kishimoto was speaking of. Sakura even speaks of Naruto being close to her in her confession, which was also a romantic context and Kishimoto basically said the same thing she said in the confession about her admiration and what she thinks of Naruto. In other words, yes, Naruto is close and in the way that she describes in her confession.  

Also, we discussed the girlfriend and girl friend distinction already and that came out as invalid because apparently that wasn't used in the raw translation. As for the last part, you can give somebody warm reception about their desire to protect you and die for you, that's what a comrade does. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're willing to reciprocate anything. As I said before, more than anything, Naruto appears to be confused about the current status of his relationship with Sakura, so he settles for the best thing closest to girlfriend and says she is "more or less" that. There was no indication that he was trying to explain otherwise, and if he was, he would've covered himself after she poundcaked him and said otherwise. Apparently, Naruto's words meant that he was talking about girlfriend in a romantic sense and Sakura responded accordingly as well as Minato, who felt the need to compare her to Kushina.

Yes, it was a nostalgic Sakura/Naruto girlfriend comment from before, but now, it still appears as though Naruto is confused about his relationship with Sakura. Before, he was confused, and even now, he was confused. The only thing different about the entire exchange is Naruto's reaction to the insinuation. Before, he would blush and childishly go along with it. Now, Naruto is more mature with how feels and his love for her is more of a genuine love and care rather than a childhood crush. When it comes to Sakura, Naruto isn't a coy young boy anymore with a selfish crush. Now, he is a young man who's feelings have developed into something selfless and caring, as well as more straight forward. 

That is what that scene indicated, for me atleast. See the difference:





The first one is indicating more of a selfish, childish type of love where Naruto isn't really considerate of Sakura's feelings and where her feelings stand. The first one can also be taken that way as well, where he is uncertain where their relationship stands which explains why he says "You brats are very perceptive..." which could also mean that they're being judgmental and don't know the situation. The second one is more of an indication of more of a selfless love where Naruto is mature and acknowledges the complexity of the relationship between them and he is uncertain of where their relationship stands, so he settles for "more or less" it. There is no blush on his face and he deals with the situation in a mature manner; no blushing and no embarrassed/nervous expression on his face. He is straight forward. In both scenerios, Sakura reacts to the notion that she is Naruto's girlfriend, which is clearly what he meant both times. 

In fact, Naruto had no idea that Hinata wanted to stand beside his side at war's end, so how could he have the chance to reciprocate something that he doesn't know? Wait a minute, Naruto already knew because she said so in her confession? o_O I mean, she did say that she wanted to stand by his side and walk with him, right? Then, why did it take all the way up to the war for him to "reciprocate" her feelings?? Could it be because it might not be what he's doing??  Heck, he has been aware of her romantic feelings for a long time now, but has not shown any indication of reciprocating them. More than anything, Naruto is showing her that he thinks of her as a comrade, just as Sakura said in her speech before Minato shows up.  More than anything, this war is about sticking together and fighting along each other as one; connected. Reciprocating Hinata's feelings is the last thing on Naruto's mind at this stage. First and foremost, everyone is a comrade to Naruto during the duration of this war. That is what is most important. 

This line here desribes exactly what Naruto's doing with EVERYONE, including Hinata:



Clearly, you guys are mistaking his kindness for availability to romantic reciprocation and that's simply not the case. 

His lack of a response to her confession should be evidence of that, and people mistakenly assume that his recent kind and comrade-based interactions with her are indications of him returning those feelings, which it isn't. If he were really reciprocating such feelings, he would've done so chapters and chapters ago. People also assume that Naruto is beginning to see how such an amazing Hinata is; then why it take 100+ chapters for him to do so even after the girl sacrificed her life for him in the name of her love for him? 

He certainly wasn't thinking about her and how amazing she was then. So, we are expected to believe that after hundreds of chapters, he is just now finally starting to reciprocate her feelings and realize what an amazing person he is? Or is it because that's not the case? Hmm . . .  

Could it be that he didn't address the love confession itself, because he didn't feel that way but addressed the bravery of her act because he could relate to it due to the camaraderie behind sacrificing your life for a comrade?

I'm just saying. 

That's the end of it.


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## Kurama (Jan 31, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Exactly. Her feelings for Naruto were never touched on and that is just your assumption.



Yes they were, by way of stating while he's physically closer her heart lies with Sasuke, which is explicitly supported in manga chapter 540 where Sasuke alone is her "someone else" after being forced to consider Naruto's "love" and all his good points and Sasuke nearly taking her head off. 



> Still, it doesn't make sense to say that Naruto is in close proximity, but she still loves Sasuke. It doesn't.



How does it not make sense? Its essentially paraphrasing the truth behind her failfession: Naruto is there and good, Sasuke is away doing bad things but its Sasuke whom she loves. There's no loophole of not addressing her feelings for Naruto for you to abuse because its addressed through omission.



> The topic is on relationships and Sakura's relation to Naruto and Sasuke. That is what makes it ambiguous.



There's nothing ambiguous. You want the "close" to mean she's warmed up to him romantically but the manga does not support it at all.



> The topic of romantic love is written within the context of Kishimoto's sentence and the only thing Kishimoto says regarding Sakura's feelings toward Naruto is that he is close which automatically makes one assume that it's either ambiguous or also included within the romantic context that Kishimoto was speaking of.



No, that's just grasping for straws. The term was for physical proximity, not emotional. She's shut down every hint of romantic advance so no, she's not open to him.



> Sakura even speaks of Naruto being close to her in her confession, which was also a romantic context and Kishimoto basically said the same thing she said in the confession about her admiration and what she thinks of Naruto. In other words, yes, Naruto is close and in the way that she describes in her confession.



Yea, close as in proximity, he's there and Sasuke's not. And she's lying through her teeth about the main point she tried to sell: that she loved him now.



> Also, we discussed the girlfriend and girl friend distinction already and that came out as invalid because apparently that wasn't used in the raw translation.



And you miss the part where I say its NARUTO making the distinction, it doesn't matter what Minato says.



> As for the last part, you can give somebody warm reception about their desire to protect you and die for you, that's what a comrade does. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're willing to reciprocate anything.


The point is the idea of him being open to her romantically is a valid interpretation given the evidence, there's no concrete evidence to contradict the idea or that supports the argument you make that he definitely CANNOT be interested.



> As I said before, more than anything, Naruto appears to be confused about the current status of his relationship with Sakura, so he settles for the best thing closest to girlfriend and says she is "more or less" that.


Naruto isn't confused at all, he knows full well where her heart lies, there's no arguing otherwise. You're seriously reading too much into the girlfriend moment, which is a simple gag. But its understandable since yall have been in a drought since the Penis Arc and Hinata was getting so much shine.




> There was no indication that he was trying to explain otherwise,



His hesitation, uncertain reply and getting cut off.

[QUOTE{and if he was, he would've covered himself after she poundcaked him and said otherwise.[/QUOTE]
In universe perhaps he would have had Minato not alluded to Sasuke's arrival, out of universe, yall should understand through Iron Country that Kishi gets a kick out of baiting your fandom.




> Apparently, Naruto's words meant that he was talking about girlfriend in a romantic sense



No they don't, the word "girlfriend" never leaves his lips. Him attempting to make the distinction and getting cut off is arguably more valid as it doesn't contradict the failfession where he states matter of factly that her switching from Sasuke to him is a load of bull.



> and Sakura responded accordingly as well as Minato, who felt the need to compare her to Kushina.



It was strictly on temper and made him uncomfortable to where he told her to take it easy on his son. Nothing implies resemblance to his relationship with Kushina. The desperation for this parallel just reduces the four characters involved to raging harpies and total idiots, its like to hell with all their character development lets just throw chapter 3 Naruto and Sakura together.



> Yes, it was a nostalgic Sakura/Naruto girlfriend comment from before, but now, it still appears as though Naruto is confused about his relationship with Sakura.



Again, he's not confused, he's surely no longer a cocky little moron about it like he was with Konohamaru though.



> Before, he was confused, and even now, he was confused.



Naruto has never been confused. He's had minor hope spots like the feeding scene [which still isn't a deep showcasing of love as much as simple lingering attraction], but has never been confused. He's gone from cocky little shit, to actually respecting her affections for his best friend, mainly through simple lack of focus over an extended time and a realization of too little too late at the time of the PoaL.




> The only thing different about the entire exchange is Naruto's reaction to the insinuation. Before, he would blush and childishly go along with it. Now, Naruto is more mature with how feels and his love for her is more of a genuine love and care rather than a childhood crush.



Or its a mature love as a comrade/friend/teammate who respects her feelings for someone else. His romantic feelings never really underwent the distinct developments Sakura's and Hinata's received. Every time they were addressed it was tied directly to him acknowledging her affection for Sasuke. As I've said many times over the tears if the only support for the severity if Naruto's affection is the "sacrifice" of the PoaL it really isn't that strong at all.



> When it comes to Sakura, Naruto isn't a coy young boy anymore with a selfish crush.


Thank the gods for that.



> Now, he is a young man who's feelings have developed into something selfless and caring, as well as more straight forward.



By throwing out random date request out of opportunity and covering up his true feelings? They've developed platonically by consequence of generic team bonding, but we don't see his crush grow deeper the way Sakura's and Hinata's did, due to his overall lack of focus on romance.




> That is what that scene indicated, for me atleast. See the difference:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its understandable that you'd see it that way, otherwise you wouldn't have much at all to stand on. Unfortunately, I simply disagree on him being confused or his crush in particular having deepened as opposed to general friendship.


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## Kurama (Jan 31, 2014)

> The first one can also be taken that way as well, where he is uncertain where their relationship stands which explains why he says "You brats are very perceptive..." which could also mean that they're being judgmental and don't know the situation.


That's not confusion, that's him being a cocky, inconsiderate little moron. He's claiming their perception is correct, even though he knows its not.



> The second one is more of an indication of more of a selfless love where Naruto is mature and acknowledges the complexity of the relationship between them and he is uncertain of where their relationship stands, so he settles for "more or less" it.



There's nothing inherently selfless or indicative of deepened feelings in his response, the only thing changed is the loss of the cocky inconsiderate little moron who would answer an afgirmative without hesitation, and their relationship isn't even that complex, what he's acknowledging is that from an outsider's perspective it may seem that way. His "more or less it" is the same as "if you're splitting hairs I guess", in that in the literal sense she is a girl who is his friend. 



> There is no blush on his face and he deals with the situation in a mature manner; no blushing and no embarrassed/nervous expression on his face.



Considering my interpretation has him attempting to explain the actual truth of their relationship it makes sense he'd be serious, but Kishi is going for a gag so:



> He is straight forward.


Adding "more or less" is being roundabout, meaning he is not agreeing with certainty but implying its not really the case but Sakura cuts him off because of how she interpreted his wording.




> In both scenerios, Sakura reacts to the notion that she is Naruto's girlfriend, which is clearly what he meant both times.



In the first one yes, because he flat out agreed, in this one its to what she thought his words implied, which would have been a lie. Either way she reacts disfavorably towards the idea of a romantic relationship were hours before their current circumstance, so no matter what you wish to claim of Naruto's feelings Sakura does not want.



> ]In fact, Naruto had no idea that Hinata wanted to stand beside his side at war's end, so how could he have the chance to reciprocate something that he doesn't know?



You're making the mistake of misinterpreting "positive reception" for "reciprocation". The former is necessary for the latter to develop. NH clearly has this while NS clearly does not.



> Wait a minute, Naruto already knew because she said so in her confession? o_O I mean, she did say that she wanted to stand by his side and walk with him, right? Then, why did it take all the way up to the war for him to "reciprocate" her feelings??


Its only been at best a couple of weeks since Pain's Invasion depending on the travel time to Iron Country. Naruto wasn't just sitting around in the village twiddling his thumbs in that time [neither was Hinata for that matter]. Immediately after his hero's welcome he's hit with the news that Tsunade's in a coma. He even states in his moping that he has so much to talk to her about. She being his mother figure, its very likely he'd want to talk about his father, his quest for peace, and Hinata's confession. Then he's hit with news of the bounty on Sasuke's head and he immediately heads off for Iron Country. Then there's three days between his return from Iron Country to his departure for Turtle Island, which is likely where the exchange Hinata flashes back to in 540 takes places, which was clearly positive and not resulting in him stating any disinterest in her seeing as she's reactijg to his actions with increased confidence and certainty. Again, you're mistaking reception and reciprocation.



> Could it be because it might not be what he's doing??



If that was the case much like he attempted during her Proud Failure Speech to clarify the reasons for his boasting he'd tell her straight if he was unable to return her affections so she doesn't confuse his later gestures. But he doesn't, which implies through their later interaction that he's positively receptive and therefore open to reciprocate.





> Heck, he has been aware of her romantic feelings for a long time now,



A very hectic week and a half or so.



> but has not shown any indication of reciprocating them.



What he has shown is positive reception. By contrast Sakura has shown both negative reception and repulsion towards The concept of a relationship with Naruto.




> More than anything, Naruto is showing her that he thinks of her as a comrade,



Sure, if you ignore all the blatant references towards her love bred sacrifice and the intimate manner in which Kishi intentionally focuses on their physical contact.



> just as Sakura said in her speech before Minato shows up.



Makes sense coming from Sakura, as just as she said in her speech in 573, all of Naruto's comrades
are there to help.



> More than anything, this war is about sticking together and fighting along each other as one; connected.



True, but this doesn't discount the possibility for romance to develop, or NS shouldn't hold its breath for the next chapter.



> Reciprocating Hinata's feelings is the last thing on Naruto's mind at this stage.



Not gonna stop him from showing positive reception. Funny how you say this but insist his little exchange with his dad definitely indicates his love for Sakura.



> First and foremost, everyone is a comrade to Naruto during the duration of this war. That is what is most important.



Keep that in mind in Sakura's regard as well.



> This line here desribes exactly what Naruto's doing with EVERYONE, including Hinata:



Hinata had to remind of this first and foremost, out of her desire for her cousin's sacrifice to not be in vain and for Naruto to not fall to despair and give in. Naruto references her love bred sacrifice once again and takes her hand, smiling at her a gripping harder. There's definitely more involved in their exchange than simple camaraderie, but you refuse to accept it.



> Clearly, you guys are mistaking his kindness for availability to romantic reciprocation and that's simply not the case.


Amusing considering you pour all over Sakura so much as winking at Naruto as evidence she's growing feelings for him despite all the evidence to the contrary. There is nothing contradicting the idea that he is positively receptive to her affections.



> His lack of a response to her confession should be evidence of that, and people mistakenly assume that his recent kind and comrade-based interactions with her are indications of him returning those feelings, which it isn't.



We never said it was, we say its representative of him being positively receptive of her affections by repeat fond reference of her love bred sacrifice, a gesture made explicitly out of romantic love. Just because he hasn't directly responded to her words doesn't discount his response to her actions because her words are simple explanation for her actions.this positive reception opens the door for eventual reciprocation.



> If he were really reciprocating such feelings, he would've done so chapters and chapters ago. People also assume that Naruto is beginning to see how such an amazing Hinata is; then why it take 100+ chapters for him to do so even after the girl sacrificed her life for him in the name of her love for him?



"Chapters and chapters ago" is still just a day or two in manga time. Since her confession he's been all over the place with only a hint towards an interaction that ended on a positive note. It doesn't matter the number of chapters as he's still positively receptive.


[QUOTE{He certainly wasn't thinking about her and how amazing she was then. So, we are expected to believe that after hundreds of chapters, he is just now finally starting to reciprocate her feelings and realize what an amazing person he is? Or is it because that's not the case? Hmm . . .  [/QUOTE]


Its pretty obvious he's thought this even before her sacrifice, it only increased it and he only got t express it when they met on the battlefield. What business does he have thinking on how amazing she is when his mother figure is in a coma and the new guy in charge put a hit out on his best friend and now war is on the horizon?



> Could it be that he didn't address the love confession itself, because he didn't feel that way but addressed the bravery of her act because he could relate to it due to the camaraderie behind sacrificing your life for a comrade?



That's you cherry picking, things don't quite work out that way. Naruto doesn't have to respond directly to her words when her actions are what prove them time and again and that is what he references. On top of that, Hinata herself perceives his fondness as positive reception, are you going to claim Sakura's reaction validates Naruto's feelings for her in the gf response [which it still doesn't cuz he was cut off] but Hinata's reaction does not in their cases? Hinata reacts with increased confidence, Sakura reacts with repulsion. You should see the writing on the wall here.


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## PAWS (Jan 31, 2014)

Hinata in the latest chapter showed concern for Naruto, but to me it looked like concern for a friend not someone she loves. I know she ran to him but it wasnt the reaction I thought she was going to show. When Neji died she was crying. I dont know maybe she is starting to see Naruto as a friend now. 

(Kuruma, you need to change your profile pic and sig because they hurt too much)


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## Revolution (Jan 31, 2014)

Don't you guys find it hilarious there is a debate thread when any pairing that happens in the end will be indisputable?


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## Kage (Jan 31, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Hinata in the latest chapter showed concern for Naruto, but to me it looked like concern for a friend not someone she loves. I know she ran to him but it wasnt the reaction I thought she was going to show. When Neji died she was crying. I dont know maybe she is starting to see Naruto as a friend now.


...
That's highly unlikely. Hinata's character depth at this point doesn't extend beyond loving Naruto. She has _nothing_ else.

I do find it interesting that upon failing to reach him she makes a plea to her dead cousin to protect Naruto, almost like she's unintentionally cementing the role of the branch family to serve the main with their life (and in this case even in death. poor Neji will never be free  )


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## Naiki (Feb 1, 2014)

It's obvious that everyone has their own arbitrary opinions and subjective mindsets, so I'm just going to rest my case until we see what happens. 

SoulFire and Kurama, your interpretation of the girlfriend comment is yours. Kurama, I doubt that I am the one looking too deeply into it, given that your interpretation is that he is attempting to explain it as something else e.g. as "girl friend" when that doesn't even fit the context, while mine is going off of what is clear and fits more into context of what I'm seeing and reading.  He appears to be confused about where their relationship stands, which is obvious, so he settles for "more or less" girlfriend. The "more or less" speaks for itself in regards to Naruto's confusion and uncertainty when it comes to where their relationship stands. If wouldn't make sense for him to say "more or less" girl friend; just no. That would be like him saying that Sakura is not really his friend at all, and that again, wouldn't make sense because they obviously ARE friends. Minato asked if Sakura was his girlfriend (girfriend as in partner, not friend) and he answered his father's question in response to that word. 

There was no explaining it and there was no deep pondering on his part, yet you claim so, and I'm looking too deeply into it? And also, Kurama, don't bother if you're going to come at me with that but don't back your opinions up with manga panels or anything. I, however, have done that throughout this debate thread but you haven't and you're saying someone is looking too deeply into it?

As for your interpretation on Naruto having positive reception about Hinata's feelings and it being roughly a week or so; No.

Clearly, it's been more than a week, more like a month or so and passing it off as hectic doesn't prove anything. With all of the preparations going on and everything in between, I highly doubt that.

It's debaters like you that claim that someone is "cherry-picking" or looking too deeply into something that pisses me off and takes the professionalism out of friendly debating. I have never done that. The only thing I do is point out the misinterpretation of something and try to prove it with panels. However, I get told to "look at the writing on the wall here", yet you have no proof as if you're opinion is automatically correct. 

This is why I don't like debating on these threads. It's hard debating with people who don't back up their claims, but berates you when you show proof of why you believe so, yet you're called out as "looking too deeply into it" or  "*Its understandable that you'd see it that way, otherwise you wouldn't have much at all to stand on*".

You are being very condescending in your approach and I don't appreciate that.


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > It's obvious that everyone has their own arbitrary opinions and subjective mindsets, so I'm just going to rest my case until we see what happens.
> ...


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## Kurama (Feb 2, 2014)

Again, nobody's saying Minato's confused, just that Naruto is attempting to make the distinction between Minato's question of her being his girlfriend and the reality if her being his girl friend, but for sake of the lulz he chooses his wording badly at the unfortunate implication pisses Sakura off.

The only indication of time passed is the three days between Naruto's return from Iron Country and his leaving for Turtle Island [and we have Hinata's mystery flashback of Naruto in 540 that could very easily fit in that window, and we see it ends on a positive note even if they still beat around the bush about her words]. Aside from that there's the travel time to and from Iron Country and travel time to Turtle Island which are at the most 3 days a piece. Barely a day passes between his defeat of Pain and his leaving for Iron Country. So its been two weeks at most.


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## Kakugo (Feb 2, 2014)

I find it rather amusing that a select few are still relentlessly trying (to no avail) to twist the context of Minato's question and Naruto's answer.



ナルトの彼女かな？
[Are you Naruto's girlfriend?]

う～～～～～ん,　うん？　うん！　まぁ　そんな感じだって…
[Yeeeaaah, yeah? Yeah! Well, that's the feeling/sense of it...] 

彼女 (kanojo) = her; girlfriend
感じ (kanji) = impression; perception; feeling

彼女 (kanojo) serves no other implication here other than, literally, girlfriend. For you non-Japanese speakers, there is no such term for a "girl who is a friend". The English language makes that distinction, while Japanese does not.

そんな感じだって (sonna kanji datte) doesn't quite have a literal translation, rather, it's an expression. The "more or less it" bit is as close of a proper interpretation as you can get.

With that said, I would suggest you guys drop the ridiculous "girl who is a friend" rebuttal before you make your arguments seem even less credible.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 2, 2014)

Sourcing for this translation? Because to be honest, even if he said that, she was still pissed, and she still head butted him, just like when she punched him after answering konohamaru and many others. It's not necessary for her to say 'no i'm not' when the message of the head butt was clear enough. He was trying to impress daddy and everyone from before.


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Again, nobody's saying Minato's confused, just that Naruto is attempting to make the distinction between Minato's question of her being his girlfriend and the reality if her being his girl friend, but for sake of the lulz he chooses his wording badly at the unfortunate implication pisses Sakura off.
> 
> The only indication of time passed is the three days between Naruto's return from Iron Country and his leaving for Turtle Island [and we have Hinata's mystery flashback of Naruto in 540 that could very easily fit in that window, and we see it ends on a positive note even if they still beat around the bush about her words]. Aside from that there's the travel time to and from Iron Country and travel time to Turtle Island which are at the most 3 days a piece. Barely a day passes between his defeat of Pain and his leaving for Iron Country. So its been two weeks at most.


I was speaking from the time of Hinata's confession. I agree that since the events of Iron country a far shorter time has passed--and that the period directly before Naruto left for Turtle Island is where that flashback of Hinatas would fit perfectly.


Kakugo said:


> I find it rather amusing that a select few are still relentlessly trying (to no avail) to twist the context of Minato's question and Naruto's answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For me, this only serves to  make more sense of the rough time Naruto was having in explaining his relationship. If there is _no_ Japanese equivalent for 'girl friend',  his attempt to make his answer clear (yeah, Sakura is my friend and a girl, so you're more or less right) is even more difficult for _him _ (because Kishi wants him to come off as inarticulate in a goofy way).


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## Kage (Feb 2, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Sourcing for this translation? Because to be honest, even if he said that, she was still pissed, and she still head butted him, just like when she punched him after answering konohamaru and many others. It's not necessary for her to say 'no i'm not' when the message of the head butt was clear enough. He was trying to impress daddy and everyone from before.



That does nothing to diminish the actual meaning tho (Naruto regarding Sakura as his romantic interest) it's being argued his response wasn't intended to portray such, like he honestly felt the need to explain to his father the _complexities_ of Sakura being both a girl (Minato needed confirmation that she is in fact a girl apparently) who is his friend (whether or not she is his friend is not what his father was asking) and that's just silly.

Taking into account Sakura's reaction should only make this more evident because she did not appreciate the insinuation, otherwise she had no reason to wallop him for supposedly trying to clear up a misunderstanding.


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

Kage said:


> That does nothing to diminish the actual meaning tho (Naruto regarding Sakura as his romantic interest) it's being argued his response wasn't intended to portray such, like he honestly felt the need to explain to his father the _complexities_ of Sakura being both a girl (Minato needed confirmation that she is in fact a girl apparently) who is his friend (whether or not she is his friend is not what his father was asking) *and that's just silly.*
> 
> Taking into account Sakura's reaction should only make this more evident because she did not appreciate the insinuation, otherwise she had no reason to wallop him for supposedly trying to clear up a misunderstanding.



That's the entire point of the scene: It _is _just silly. It is Naruto being a bit of a goof, mucking up his explanation and ticking off Sakura because his explanation is so mucked up (unclear). The entire purpose of this scene is to provide humor complete with a nostalgic NaruSaku head bashing moment to lead into the team reunion. ( this ch is even titled 'Team 7' ).


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## Kage (Feb 2, 2014)

Yes humor was intended but not at the expense of Naruto's intelligence this time. He knew exactly what he was insinuating and so did Sakura. I think it very telling there is more willingness to accept Sakura getting hostile for no good reason (or just a weak one, "nostalgia" "being unclear") rather than accepting she's reacting the way she has always reacted to Naruto's not so subtle romantic advances. You could even still tag that under the 'team seven nostalgia' bit and it would still work but you have to be willing to admit Naruto's crush on Sakura is rearing it's ugly head again, just like it did when they were in similar situations in their genin days.


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

Kage said:


> Yes humor was intended but not at the expense of Naruto's intelligence this time. He knew exactly what he was insinuating and so did Sakura. I think it very telling there is more willingness to accept Sakura getting hostile for no good reason (or just a weak one, "nostalgia") rather than accepting she's reacting the way she has always reacted to Naruto's not so subtle romantic advances. You could even still tag that under the 'team seven nostalgia' bit and it would still work but you have to be willing to admit Naruto's crush on Sakura is rearing it's ugly head again, just like it did when they were in similar situations in their genin days.



Since Naruto knows full well that Sakura is NOT his gf, it makes no sense for him to insinuate such things. Naruto saying and doing silly things for the benefit of a comedic moment is completely in line with Kishi's track record.

The use of old team dynamics for nostalgic humor is hardly a 'weak' excuse. It fits right in with the chapter designated to the Team 7 reunion. As far as Sakura's reasons for punching out Naruto throughout the series, the are myriad. She is just as likely to punch him for saying something she deems stupid as for a romantic advance on his part. In this case it is a double whammy. His butt in explanation is both silly and unclear enough for her to think he is indeed proclaiming her his 'gf' (which could be perceived as mockery, considering the outcome of her confession to him). Has nothing to do with Naruto's former crush.


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## Kakugo (Feb 2, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Sourcing for this translation?



I'm the source. I speak the language, and broke this down for those who are either blatantly ignoring what's being said or simply don't know enough Japanese to decipher it for themselves.



SoulFire! said:


> For me, this only serves to  make more sense of the rough time Naruto was having in explaining his relationship. If there is _no_ Japanese equivalent for 'girl friend',  his attempt to make his answer clear (yeah, Sakura is my friend and a girl, so you're more or less right) is even more difficult for _him _ (because Kishi wants him to come off as inarticulate in a goofy way).



If this makes more sense to you, then the context of what's being said shouldn't be of any question. Minato asked if Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend, Naruto says "yeah, that's more or less it" with a straight face, and Sakura reacted. You are yet again trying to stir the "girl who is a friend" mix into the pot, and I'll say it once more: this argument is both ridiculous and desperate. If you feel as strongly as you claim you do about NH's chances of becoming canon, then you wouldn't feel the need to repeatedly nitpick at what is clearly a pro-NS insinuation.



Kage said:


> Yes humor was intended but not at the expense of Naruto's intelligence this time. He knew exactly what he was insinuating and so did Sakura. I think it very telling there is more willingness to accept Sakura getting hostile for no good reason (or just a weak one, "nostalgia" "being unclear") rather than accepting she's reacting the way she has always reacted to Naruto's not so subtle romantic advances.



Precisely. That, and this set up made for a clear opportunity for Minato to make the distinction between Sakura and Kushina. Kishi did this rather deliberately.



SoulFire! said:


> Since Naruto knows full well that Sakura is NOT his gf, it makes no sense for him to insinuate such things. Naruto saying and doing silly things for the benefit of a comedic moment is completely in line with Kishi's track record.



Actually, it does make sense. Naruto loves her, and didn't hesitate to insinuate that Sakura is his girlfriend when his father asked. If you want to write it off as a "comedic moment" (which seems to be the typical ANS go-to argument when all else fails), then that is your prerogative. This, however, does nothing to change the fact that Naruto has romantic interest in Sakura. We were simply reminded of it, though frankly, we never really needed reminding in the first place. It's namely the ANS/NH+SS crowd who continues to deny it, and that isn't NS's problem.


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

> Kakugo said:
> 
> 
> > If this makes more sense to you, then the context of what's being said shouldn't be of any question. Minato asked if Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend, Naruto says "yeah, that's more or less it" with a straight face, and Sakura reacted. You are yet again trying to sir the "girl who is a friend" mix into the pot, and I'll say it once more: this argument is both ridiculous and desperate. If you feel as strongly as you claim you do about NH's chances of becoming canon, then you wouldn't feel the need to repeatedly nitpick at what is clearly a pro-NS insinuation.
> ...


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## Naiki (Feb 2, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> > We're all pretty hard headed when it comes to our ships and how we view 'em!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SoulFire (Feb 2, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > I can agree on that, but it's pretty frustrating when people condescendingly call out for having an interpretation based on logic and context, yet they don't have any proof or logic of their own.
> ...


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## Naiki (Feb 5, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Sometimes you just have to ignore any apparent or presumed digs others put in (though, trust me, Kurama was going easy on you ) and just soldier on with presenting your view. In other words, don't stoop to the level of someone out to get your goat. Don't even acknowledge it. It works.




I try, really I do. 



> Heck, we're all fans of this manga to some extent and as pairing fans want to see the characters end up with the loves of their lives. No reason to get nasty about our differences in opinion--it's not like we have any control of the endgame, anyway!




I wish everyone felt the same way. 



> I don't think Naruto was being thoughtless (he was actually giving his words obvious consideration) as I don't feel that he was making any kind of a declaration (yes, that would be intentionally rude, as I've said in previous posts, and not just to Hinata).




His thoughtfulness plays into the speculation that  he was more than likely conflicted over the status of his and Sakura's current relationship status. Although it would be more inconsiderate and rude to Hinata since he is more than aware of her feelings by now.

For Sakura, it's more of a compliment than anything, but it's still rude since he basically told a lie on their relationship. In fact, I believe that was what inclined Sakura to actually headbutt him rather than the actual thought of being his girlfriend. I believe it was the simple fact that he was being dishonest about them.




> Naruto is uncertain of how to explain their relationship, but I don't believe he is at all uncertain of the current standing. To quote myself : It is Naruto trying to say: "Girlfriend? Yes, in a way she is (but not in the way you're suggesting)." In other words, girlfriend, no; friend who is a girl, yes. He just can't put together the right words (and apparently in Japanese there is no clear description of girl friend, making it even more difficult).




I definitely believe he is uncertain of the current standing. None of the translations I looked at indicated that Naruto was attempting to make a distinction between "girlfriend" and "girl friend". Even in one translation, Naruto comes right out and says yes with a moment's hesitation, further supporting the notion that he is, in fact, uncertain of their current standing. 




> You and I have been exceptions to the rule when it comes to pairing debates of the past. You really would not have liked posting here before the mods took the bull by the horns and put their feet down regarding the disrespectful treatment of opposing debaters and the characters. It could be a pit of vipers. It's a much nicer place, now.




I have posted here before, and even then, I had to take a break from this place. It was getting too heated for my tastes. I see that it's nicer although several bulls tend to slip past once in awhile.




> That's pretty much what Kurama and myself have said: Between the Iron Country arc and the current endless night of the War Arc there's been two weeks at most. Everything is happening ultra fast in Naruto's world (and ultra slow in ours!).




I don't know about two weeks; but I'll say at least four weeks or a month. 




>








> Give folks time! Perhaps if we treat them in the way we like to be treated they'll lighten up, eh?




I guess so, but even that isn't enough sometimes.


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## Scila9 (Feb 6, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I write it off as a comedic moment because no matter in which way you look at it, it _is_ just that. *I don't view Naruto as that in-genuine as to claim Sakura as his girlfriend simply because he might wish it so.* He knows it isn't true, and I don't see him lying to his father about it (or turning it into some thoughtless joke).



He's done it before. Chapter 34, when Konohamaru asks if Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend.


*Spoiler*: __ 








But I actually agree with you that Naruto wouldn't give an ingenuine answer to his father. I think Naruto was trying to convey that he likes Sakura in that way. Naruto says "yes, she's more or less his girlfriend" and Sakura headbutts him. Minato's conclusion imo is that Naruto is interested in Sakura, but she's not his girlfriend.

Also, if Naruto meant that "yes, she is more or less my friend who's a girl" how is that any more genuine? She's obviously his friend. Naruto would have just said yes if he meant it in that context. I don't think Naruto misunderstood what Minato was asking.

One more thing. You're right that it is a comedic moment, but I don't see how that means that everything said and everyone's reactions should be disregarded. Remember this?



Chapter 347. Sakura pervs out and Naruto makes a disgusted face. It's a comedic moment, but we can still make conclusions about a character based on their reactions. Like Sakura's a perv too and Naruto's straight.

The conclusions I draw from Chapter 631's comedic moment are really nothing new. Naruto likes the idea of Sakura being his GF and Sakura does not.

btw... hi. Just thought I'd jump in here and share some of my thoughts. I'm up for debating, of course, if anyone wants to. Sorry bout the crappy manga panels. I just google imaged them. I'm crap at editing anything


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## SoulFire (Feb 7, 2014)

Naiki said:


> > His thoughtfulness plays into the speculation that  he was more than likely conflicted over the status of his and Sakura's current relationship status. Although it would be more inconsiderate and rude to Hinata since he is more than aware of her feelings by now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Revolution (Feb 8, 2014)

Why Naruto will end up with Hinata in the end:

Japanese culture does not allow mothers back into the workforce until the children are of school age/age to take care of themselves if ever.  There are no babysitters or daycare.  

Sakura likes her career as a medic.

Hinata is a model housewife.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 8, 2014)

You know Sarahmint, at first I was like "Ohhh fuck that's not a good argument at all "
But thinking about it, you actually have a point .-.


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## Alexdhamp (Feb 8, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> You know Sarahmint, at first I was like "Ohhh fuck that's not a good argument at all "
> *But thinking about it, you actually have a point *.-.



 That and it ignores how much Hinata wanted to be a ninja and prove her self-worth. To the point that she even put her life on the line against Neji.


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## shurei (Feb 8, 2014)

Oh I see now, because somehow there's an atom size sub-plot that is raising the daycare crisis in Konoha. Hinata is clearly concern about this when she's inspired to do her best as a kunoichi.


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## PAWS (Feb 8, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> Why Naruto will end up with Hinata in the end:
> 
> Japanese culture does not allow mothers back into the workforce until the children are of school age/age to take care of themselves if ever.  There are no babysitters or daycare.
> 
> ...



Sakura has two capable parents who would look after the children. So she can be a mom and medic at the same time.


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## Alexdhamp (Feb 8, 2014)

shurei said:


> Oh I see now, because somehow there's an atom size sub-plot that is raising the daycare crisis in Konoha. Hinata is clearly concern about this when she's inspired to do her best as a kunoichi.



Reading comprehension fail FTW. The article was to show how wrong the statement made about Japanese culture was. The rest was to show Hinata wouldn't just be "a model housewife" as it doesn't match her development thus far. Hinata wants to be a strong shinobi...giving up and just being a complacent housewife would be the very opposite of that. Should I draw you graph or picture to help you better understand my point, perhaps?


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## SoulFire (Feb 8, 2014)

Being a Shinobi does not necessarily mean being out in the field. Konoha is a village primarily made up of Shinobi/Kunoichi families (so prosperous and successful that common folk became a large part of it). Shinobi of both sexes have plenty of other duties within the village (teachers; advisors; office workers; etc.). Most Kunoichi likely take a different path during child rearing years and/or as they age. I also expect Hinata to be involved with the business of her clan. I doubt she would simply be busy in the kitchen making samiches. 

As for the remarks about how things are done in Japan, I would bring up the fact that Naruto's country is _not_ Japan.


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## Scila9 (Feb 8, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hi *Webbstir*! Welcome to this cantankerous little thread of The Big Three!



*looks up the word cantakerous*

... *decides never to use argumentative again cuz cantakerous is way cooler*

Thanks! 



> True, but that was back when Naruto had a bratty streak and was *often building himself up as something and someone he was not.*  Back then he could not have cared less how Sakura felt about his lie--he was too invested in presenting himself as a winner in the eyes of Konohamaru and crew. Naruto has matured since then.



Yeah, Naruto's definitely matured. But what do you mean by the bolded? If you mean how he was always shouting about how awesome he was and how he was the future hokage then I don't think he's changed enough not to do stuff like that anymore. He just doesn't have to build himself up anymore because he's actually become what he was always boasting about (except hokage...not yet). He's acknowledged by everyone as awesome now. His delusions have become true. But I think if there was anything else he wanted to be and he wasn't yet that he'd still say things like that. That's how he is. If he wants to be acknowledged as something he himself always acknowledges it first. (I know I'm wording things weird, I hope you get my meaning )

If you just meant that he wouldn't build himself up to be Sakura's boyfriend when he's not then you can just ignore all that  ^  Or! If I wanna be difficult and nitpicky I can say that Naruto was technically building _Sakura_ up to be something she's not (his girlfriend) and not himself.



> I think just the opposite. I think that Naruto was trying to convey that his relationship with Sakura is not 'that way' at all. He just doesn't make his meaning clear before Sakura attacks him. I don't think we were privy to any conclusion that Minato might have made beyond noting Sakura's temper.



Minato uses the word kanojo, right? And Naruto repeats it before answering. "Kanojo?...um...uh...yeah! Well, that's more or less it." If he wanted to convey to Minato that he was not interested in Sakura as anything more than a friend then I just don't think he did a very good job. Even if he had been planning on explaining more before Sakura headbutted him, starting a "we're just friends" explanation off with "yeah, she's more or less my kanojo" is confusing.

No, we aren't shown any conclusions other than that Sakura's temper is scary like Kushina's. But I don't think it's a stretch to think Minato made some assumptions about their relationship/nonrelationship. I mean, that one comedic moment does basically sum up Naruto and Sakura's whole dynamic.



> It was not obvious to Minato that Sakura was Naruto's friend: He knows nothing about her beyond that she was healing Naruto when he arrived. It was _Minato_ who misunderstood the relationship, not Naruto. Naruto was trying to set his father straight.



My bad! I thought you were saying that Naruto had misunderstood Minato's meaning. 

I meant that it's obvious to Naruto that Sakura is his friend. So if he were replying to Minato that Sakura is more or less his friend it sounds weird. Naruto wouldn't say more or less or splitting hairs or whatever translation when describing Sakura as his friend. Anyway, my fault for misunderstanding



> What I conclude about that scene is that Sakura finds guys like Sasuke and Sai hot. Interestingly enough, Kishi (through Konohamaru's jutsu) did not make that a twosome of Sasuke and _Naruto_. It's obvious that Naruto is straight--don't need a scene to prove it.



 That's cuz Naruto would have seriously killed Konohamaru and Konohamaru knew it. With this he got off easy with a punch. Nah, I'm kiddin. Like Konohamaru was thinking ahead at all

So you agree that conclusions can be drawn from comedic moments based on character reactions?

Although Sakura finds Sasuke and Sai attractive, I don't think that matters regarding who she can fall in love with. Everyone has a look/type they like but they don't always fall for someone who matches it. Sakura finding Sasuke/Sai attractive doesn't mean she can't fall for Naruto. Just like Naruto finding Sakura attractive doesn't mean he can't fall for Hinata.

Yup, it should be _very_ obvious Naruto's straight. But people will believe what they wanna believe



> I consider the entire thing a comedic intro to the Team 7-centric chapter. Naruto says something in a clumsy manner, Sakura reacts with her traditional blowup and Minato sweatdrops. Much ado about nothing.



Yeah, it was nothing new. 



> Once again, welcome! Always nice to meet a new face, even if we see things differently! Don't worry about those panels--I'm the queen of crap editing skills--too darned old to figure it out!!



Huzzah! I'm not alone!! lol And thank ya again

Just a little about me:
*Spoiler*: __ 



Just so ya know, I'm not an avid shipper of NaruHina or NaruSaku. I'm cool with either or neither of them becoming canon (or both) SS... well I despise SS so I'm not really neutral. NH has the, imo, misfortune of always being accompanied by SS.

I know, I know! "Why are you even here then?" That's the question, right? Well, I may not care about the endgame, but I have thoughts about all the pairing moments and character feelings too... 
And I want to share!  Also I'm just not good at keeping my nose out of stuff. Plus debating about it's fun depending on your partner






Sarahmint said:


> Why Naruto will end up with Hinata in the end:
> 
> Japanese culture does not allow mothers back into the workforce until the children are of school age/age to take care of themselves if ever.  There are no babysitters or daycare.
> 
> ...



Sakura and Hinata are both great shinobi. Hinata would be sacrificing a lot too. Neither would be sacrificing it permanently though. I think, when the time is right, both of them will make great wives and mothers.


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## shurei (Feb 8, 2014)

Alexdhamp said:


> Reading comprehension fail FTW. The article was to show how wrong the statement made about Japanese culture was. The rest was to show Hinata wouldn't just be "a model housewife" as it doesn't match her development thus far. Hinata wants to be a strong shinobi...giving up and just being a complacent housewife would be the very opposite of that. Should I draw you graph or picture to help you better understand my point, perhaps?



Dude, wtf are you going on about?My post was not directed at anything you said or whatever the fucking article you're going on about. I was replying to Michael's post. My post reflected on Hinata's development on being a kunoichi too.
 You posted several minutes before I did, meaning that I was TYPING MY RESPONSE AND NEVER READ YOURS.


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## brainguyobserver (Feb 8, 2014)

Is it true that in the first databook it says  "she also looks Naruto's way despite loving Sasuke at that moment,but it is also mentioned that she might happen to love Naruto in the future."

I'd say that's another big clue.


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## SoulFire (Feb 8, 2014)

> TheWebbstir said:
> 
> 
> > *looks up the word cantakerous*
> ...


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## Naiki (Feb 9, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I find Naruto's thoughtfulness was more about choosing the proper words to clarify his relationship with Sakura--and that his clarification was _not_ about claiming/proclaimmiing her as his 'girlfriend'. Thus, it was no affront to Hinata at all (as demonstrated by her lack of a response).




I really don't see that. Naruto saying "if you're splitting hairs" or "more or less" about Sakura being just his friend doesn't make sense because, obviously, Naruto already knows that Sakura is his friend. That's like he is saying that Sakura is "kinda, sorta" his friend, and that doesn't make sense when fit into the context.

Actually, he wasn't even attempting to explain anything. His answer was short and sweet. There was no indication of any explanation _anywhere_. 

Hinata isn't the jealous type anyway, so why would she be jealous? As a matter of fact, Hinata's really isn't to "win" Naruto either. Her goal is to protect him and be by his side. 

Naruto meant "more or less" his girlfriend, and the context of the situation as well as everyone's reaction clarifies this. He wasn't trying to "explain anything" and he wasn't misinterpreted because his answer was short, sweet and he meant what he said based on his own feelings for the girl.




> I think that Naruto failed in establishing what he considers the true form of their relationship (which is _not_ girlfriend and boyfriend) in his first hesitant string of words. That was all that Sakura needed to take it the wrong way and whack him one (before he could elaborate further). She misunderstood his botched attempt at an explanation.




According to your argument, "uh ... uh .. " is an indication of an explanation? I agree that is he obviously considering the true nature of their relationship, but he  was obviously considering "just a friend" vs. "girlfriend" before he ultimately chose "more or less" girlfriend as an answer.  Even if he were trying to "explain" something (which I doubt). as you said, then he ultimately decided against answering that Sakura was just a friend. He went for "more or less" girlfriend in the end. 

Yes, his first hesitant string of words and then his self-assured answer soon after that: which was "more or less" and/or "if you're splitting hairs!" Both of these are definite answers with no hints of explanation behind them. Naruto's answer was short and sweet after a bit of hesitation. Both of these answers also translate to him meaning that she is basically is girlfrend, but with some difficulty. 

Sakura wouldn't just headbutt Naruto if she didn't understand him. She isn't that stupid not to understand him because Naruto isn't that hard to figure out and Sakura knows him pretty well and how he will react to certain things. As expected, Naruto answered Minato's question like he always does and she acted accordingly. 

If it were different, she would have given a different reaction.




> I don't think Naruto is so delusional or dumb as to be uncertain or confused about the current standing of their relationship.




Well, I think so. As a matter of fact, it's expected of him to feel this way. With the confession in the Iron country and the drama behind all of that, It's very safe to assume that he is confused about what's going on in their relationship. That's not being necessarily delusional, but it's obvious that he is confused/conflicted about where things stand with him and Sakura. 





> I'd be surprised if it's as long as a month. Things began to move really fast once Naruto headed off to Turtle Island. It really has been a whirlwind of activity since then.




That's my point. We weren't given exactly how much time passed while he was on the island as well as his trip there. It could've been a week that he was on that island, which is already half of what you guys claim to be how long the Pein arc was away from the hand-incident. Then take into account all of the things that happens as well.  There is also the reconstruction of Konoha saga, the Iron Country Saga, the Team 7 Reunion Saga, and everything in between and these were before the Killerbee/ Island arc. 

I highly doubt it was just two weeks all together. Add all of the preparations needed for the war as well as the assembling of the Divisions for the war. That's a lot.


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## Kage (Feb 9, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> She's full of doubt and distrust. Maybe if someone took the time to explain to Sakura the truth about Itachi things would be different. That seemed to enlighten Naruto enough.



That's not the case. Naruto was still at a loss even after being told the truth by Tobi.
He didn't get the answers he needed until deciding he would figure it out after meeting Sasuke himself. Because of such I believe Sakura, whose resolve to do what she thought best for everyone was already weak, wouldn't have benefited from knowing.


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## Scila9 (Feb 9, 2014)

Kage said:


> That's not the case. *Naruto was still at a loss even after being told the truth by Tobi.*
> He didn't get the answers he needed until deciding he would figure it out after meeting Sasuke himself. Because of such I believe Sakura, whose resolve to do what she thought best for everyone was already weak, wouldn't have benefited from knowing.



Ah 'tis true. Honestly, I feel like if it weren't for all of Naruto's resolve and determination inspiring Sakura so much, she would've given up on Sasuke a while ago.


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## Kage (Feb 9, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Ah 'tis true. Honestly, I feel like if it weren't for all of Naruto's resolve and determination inspiring Sakura so much, she would've given up on Sasuke a while ago.



You have good reason to feel that way because it's only the truth. Naruto shouldn't have to constantly jumpstart Sakura's faith in her beloved when the going gets tough if her love is supposed to be steadfast and proof of such admirable endurance and dedication.


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## Nic (Feb 9, 2014)

Itachi's true story is irrelevant to Sakura's mistrust seeing as Sasuke sees Naruto as someone to eliminate.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

Actually Sasuke sees Naruto as his rival only now it's just as someone for the title of Hokage. Sakura does trust Sasuke, but there is still doubt because of everything he's done in the past. 

"Is it true that in the first databook it says "she also looks Naruto's way despite loving Sasuke at that moment,but it is also mentioned that she might happen to love Naruto in the future."

I'd say that's another big clue."

To this I have to no it's not true. In the databook there are a bunch of stuff said that is either contradicted in the manga, or they don't happen. This is an example:

In her childhood, Sasuke was the object of her yearning, then loving feelings. Naruto was just the nuisance that would force itself between Sasuke and her, and ruin the day in some fashion. But looking back on the past after a few missions handled together, Sakura suddenly realized. In her painful moments, when she'd abandoned even the will to live, the one who'd protect her and encourage her was Naruto, the supposedly annoying one... What feelings does she harbor towards Naruto?... As of now, Sakura hasn't found the answer.

Sakura knows that in the shinobi world, one must pay a suitable compensation to obtain something. Despite this, if she could recover Sasuke... and the daily life that were lost, Sakura would gladly make any sacrifice. And that resolve gives Sakura the strength to open a way towards the future.

This basically means that while Naruto is close to Sakura, Sasuke is closer to her heart, but still hasn't figured out all her feelings. However, this is well over 6 years old and the databooks are not one hundred percent accurate in translation or show us what's to come. Much of what has happened in the manga contradicts   some of these things. One thing does remain however, how much she's in love with Sasuke.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

On another note... YEAH!!! I can post! Stupid thing wouldn't let me for some reason.... Eh-hum. Sorry, had to get that out of my system. Look forward to debating and arguing with you all. Please no bashing.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

Sakura in my personal opinion and the overall feeling I get from the same one I got from Tsunade. An old fashion individual whose first love is essentially their soulmate, and nothing can change that, meaning if Sasuke's dead she won't go to someone else. 

Maybe Naruto for comfort but not in the romantic sense... much like Tsunade who was in love with Dan even after his death. Even Jiraiya knew Tsunade would never see him the same way she saw Dan. Still doesn't.


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## Kage (Feb 9, 2014)

Sakura's love is not so terribly unique though. All the players in this debate also continue to feel the way they do about their unrequited love interests (yes, even Naruto though there are many who would argue the contrary despite the lack of a love confession, which is demanded for Naruto--->Sakura but not for Naruto---> Hinata)


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 9, 2014)

brainguyobserver said:


> Is it true that in the first databook it says  "she also looks Naruto's way despite loving Sasuke at that moment,but it is also mentioned that she might happen to love Naruto in the future."
> 
> I'd say that's another big clue.



no he never said that.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm a NaruHina fan "been since the beginning because of a feeling I get with every potential couple in the manga comics i've read, so far this feeling has never let me down."

One thing I find odd about the love part is that when it comes to Naruto's love for Sakura, which I don't doubt he loves her " though the type of love may have changed", quite a few moments are shown past tense in which months have passed or seen from someone else's view point." Not once has Naruto ever said, "I'm in love with Sakura!" People, fictional and real, make the assumption he has said that. 

During these moments I also see Naruto reflecting on their relationship. In my mind Naruto wants to be with Sakura, but knows that her heart and affections aren't his, most likely they never will be, he wants what he can't have. Ultimately if this continues he'll end up like Jiraiya. 

However, Naruto has shown signs of interests in Hinata with all that's happened. It was light in Part 1 but it appeared more often in Part 2. Stuff so very emotional, important and intense has occurred between them. None of which has any comedy, or humour that occurs after words like much of the NaruSaku moments. But for all we know the manga may end without the final pairing. Hell there could be an epilogue and we still don't know. 

Let's just enjoy the ride while it last.


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## Kage (Feb 9, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> One thing I find odd about the love part is that when it comes to Naruto's love for Sakura, which I don't doubt he loves her " though the type of love may have changed", quite a few moments are shown past tense in which months have passed or seen from someone else's view point." Not once has Naruto ever said, "I'm in love with Sakura!" People, fictional and real, make the assumption he has said that.
> 
> During these moments I also see Naruto reflecting on their relationship. In my mind Naruto wants to be with Sakura, but knows that her heart and affections aren't his, most likely they never will be, he wants what he can't have. Ultimately if this continues he'll end up like Jiraiya.
> 
> ...


Similarly he has yet to say the same about Hinata but the kindness he shows her and genuine appreciation he has for her as a comrade are enough to suppose there is an "interest" meanwhile blatant shows of romantic interest, even if comical, are considered meaningless...
Jiraiya's love for Tsunade was often presented as comical but it didn't make it any less true right? 

Naruto isn't the only one pining after what he seemingly can't have (though much more mild in comparison to the girls and thank buddha for that) and I'd rather assume if anyone is going to give it's going to be a character whose conflicts have been heavily associated with romance from the start (Sakura) as opposed to one who has not (Sasuke)

but who knows for sure?


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

Jiraiya loves for Tsunade was both comical and serious. There's just one problem, while Tsunade loved Jiraiya, she wasn't in love with him. Even after a decade and a half of Dan's death Tsunade was shown to still be in love with him, even after becoming Hokage her love for him never wavered. Tsunade never showed any change in that department, but people thought otherwise.

The latest scene with Sakura holding Naruto's heart and people calling it symbolic/romantic is pure crap in my mind and desperate. He's dying and Sakura is forced to take drastic measures because one: she's out of chakra, which was used to both pump and stabilize his heart, two he's dying for god sakes, three Naruto's healing factor is gone since Kurama was taken from him, four the CPR was done to give him fresh oxygen and expel the excess of carbon dioxide in his body, which accumulates even when the body stops producing oxygen and can kill him, "common sense that' and five the hand pumping his heart thing has been done in real life in very rare and desperate situations, even in medical manga comics they've been done. Just look at Team Medical Dragon.


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## Revolution (Feb 9, 2014)

SakuraxSasuke has so much potential.

The only problem I have is the fact that *it is never explained why she loves him*.

It's like:  

guy: You are beautiful
girl: but what else?
guy: ...


I love SasuSaku, but it seriously lacks texture and substance.  With Sasuke, she is the closest bond he ever had, surpassing Naruto as he is going to sever his bond with him once and for all (or so it seems)


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

In manga little to no reason, in some cases, are giving why someone falls in love with another. Hell! Kishimoto said he was inspired by Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball Z and look what happened! Little to no character development between Goku and Chichi and they end up getting married. Hell Vegeta was an asshole and he ending up marring Bulma, though it was said he had a soft side he only showed privately or something like that.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 9, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Yes, that's definitely what I mean!  I don't think Naruto would be so rude and inconsiderate as to make false claims about his relationship with Sakura (and he knows darned well that they are not boy and girlfriend).



It seems like we fundamentally disagree on Naruto's character then, as I think it'd be entirely in keeping with his nature in part 2 to make such a (joking) claim, particularly if Sakura is around.



> I'm not certain of the raw, from what I've seen Naruto does not repeat the word 'girlfriend'. He simply stumbles around before attempting to clarify the relationship. And yes, he did not do a very good job. That is part of the joke (and what drew Sakura's ire).



There are many ways to respond affirmatively to the question "is that your girlfriend?" without saying girlfriend, why is this even being discussed?



> Minato merely wondered if the girl healing Naruto was his girlfriend. More of a simple question than an assumption. I do agree that the moment does basically sum up Naruto and Sakura's whole dynamic.  More Team 7 than romantic.



I don't think anyone is claiming it as a romantic moment, what they are saying is that Naruto wants Sakura to be his girlfriend.



> It doesn't mean that Sakura can't fall for Naruto--but the fact is that _she still hasn't_. Nothing that Naruto has said or done has pushed her feelings past the friendship mark. She remains in love with Sasuke, warts and all.



Ah yes, 'she still loves him'. You know for all that love that she has for Sasuke, Sakura has been much more worried about Naruto in the past few hundred chapters. Then we have scenes with Sakura being miserable over Sasuke and mutual murder attempts and what not. Combine this with neither Naruto, Sakura or Sasuke being confirmed to have changed their feelings yet and the question "who is the most likely person to?" still remains firmly in the court of Sakura.

Might I also mention that it's been over a hundred chapters since the last time we got a peek into Sakura's head and current manga events are quite nicely lining up for some drama.



> Me, I'm NaruHina all the way. Like NaruSaku as friends but don't feel the romantic 'love' in their relationship. Not at all opposed to SasuSaku--it was the first hinted pairing I saw in the manga and I do think it very likely to happen. Sakura has been far too unwavering in her feelings for me to believe that she will have an endgame love epiphany about Naruto.



"unwavering".

Good one.



Sarahmint said:


> I love SasuSaku, but it seriously lacks texture and substance.  With Sasuke, she is the closest bond he ever had, surpassing Naruto as he is going to sever his bond with him once and for all (or so it seems)



OK what the actual fuck.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 9, 2014)

Language Mr Horrible. You hurt my freaking virgin ears..... Bwahahahahaha, naw I'm just messing. But seriously, language.


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## Scila9 (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> SakuraxSasuke has so much potential.
> 
> The only problem I have is the fact that *it is never explained why she loves him*.
> 
> ...



Swan Princess! Does anyone else remember that movie? lol Sorry, not relevant...



> I love SasuSaku, but it seriously lacks texture and substance.  With Sasuke, *she is the closest bond he ever had*, surpassing Naruto as he is going to sever his bond with him once and for all (or so it seems)



Whaaa? Sakura was the closest _girl_ to him, sure. But Naruto was his closest bond overall. In the past anyway.


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## Kage (Feb 9, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Jiraiya loves for Tsunade was both comical and serious. There's just one problem, while Tsunade loved Jiraiya, she wasn't in love with him. Even after a decade and a half of Dan's death Tsunade was shown to still be in love with him, even after becoming Hokage her love for him never wavered. Tsunade never showed any change in that department, but people thought otherwise.


Aaaand Naruto is similar in that regard. They had reason to think otherwise. There was an implication she would give him a chance should he make it back alive but...furthermore Tsunade was in love with a man _who was also in love with her from the start_ so you can only take these comparisons so far. In fact there is a reason they are not really allowed in the first place. no one ever reads the rules



> The latest scene with Sakura holding Naruto's heart and people calling it symbolic/romantic is pure crap in my mind and desperate. He's dying and Sakura is forced to take drastic measures because one: she's out of chakra, which was used to both pump and stabilize his heart, two he's dying for god sakes, three Naruto's healing factor is gone since Kurama was taken from him, four the CPR was done to give him fresh oxygen and expel the excess of carbon dioxide in his body, which accumulates even when the body stops producing oxygen and can kill him, "common sense that' and five the hand pumping his heart thing has been done in real life in very rare and desperate situations, even in medical manga comics they've been done. Just look at Team Medical Dragon.


I've read worse. In addition I have no interest in defending such theories because I have no investment in NaruSaku itself. As far as I'm concerned it is a procedure that is necessary to save his life and it's to be expected that Sakura _cares_ at the very least. I don't consider Naruhina in a better position than NaruSaku and so feel both have equal chances of happening based on whatever development. It's just that at the moment I'm not convinced Naruto has become romantically interested in Hinata (and disinterested in Sakura) but acknowledge this could change.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 10, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> SakuraxSasuke has so much potential.
> 
> The only problem I have is the fact that *it is never explained why she loves him*.
> 
> ...



when sakura told ino she loved sasuke, she was surprised to hear that sasuke was popular with the girls, which indicates she loves him for something else we don't know...


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## brainguyobserver (Feb 10, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> when sakura told ino she loved sasuke, she was surprised to hear that sasuke was popular with the girls, which indicates she loves him for something else we don't know...



Actually all that really proves is that Sakura was just unaware of how popular sauce was with da chicks.


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## Kage (Feb 10, 2014)

brainguyobserver said:


> Actually all that really proves is that Sakura was just unaware of how popular sauce was with da chicks.



yeah pretty hilarious when you think about it. "You mean other girls like the most handsome, talented, cool guy in class too??!!11 no wai."


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 10, 2014)

brainguyobserver said:


> Actually all that really proves is that Sakura was just unaware of how popular sauce was with da chicks.



k . 

msg too short


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## Nic (Feb 10, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> when sakura told ino she loved sasuke, she was surprised to hear that sasuke was popular with the girls, which indicates she loves him for something else we don't know...



placing logic on the thoughts of a 7-8 year old girl now.


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## ch1p (Feb 10, 2014)

Since you think we have to take notice of a 12 year old's feelings as legit too, I don't see the problem and neither should you.


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## Nic (Feb 10, 2014)

I do?  Since when?


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## PAWS (Feb 10, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> With Sasuke, she is the closest bond he ever had, surpassing Naruto as he is going to sever his bond with him once and for all (or so it seems)



That is just plain out false. Naruto is his closest bond. If anything Karin would be the closest bond he has with a girl.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Actually, though Sasuke is sorry for what he's done to both Karin and Sakura (it's implied he's sorry for his actions to her), his bond with Karin is more that of an acquaintance, as even after all they've done together they aren't that close "more one-sided on Karin's part." 

Also Karin's very pi-bolar. GOing from hating his guts to going obsessed crazy fangirl on his ass once more.

But to each their own.


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## PAWS (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Actually, though Sasuke is sorry for what he's done to both Karin and Sakura (it's implied he's sorry for his actions to her), his bond with Karin is more that of an acquaintance, as even after all they've done together they aren't that close "more one-sided on Karin's part."
> 
> Also Karin's very pi-bolar. GOing from hating his guts to going obsessed crazy fangirl on his ass once more.
> 
> But to each their own.



I gree but its more of a bond than what he has with Sakura. Where is it implied he is sorry? He says her name, that doesnt imply anything.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Didn't he say he was sorry? Huh? Could have sworn he did. Though it wasn't a full blown out apology if I recall, it was more of a "I'm sorry." This happened somewhere when Sasuke was meeting the revive Hokages when Orochimaru brought them back.


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## PAWS (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Didn't he say he was sorry? Huh? Could have sworn he did. Though it wasn't a full blown out apology if I recall, it was more of a "I'm sorry." This happened somewhere when Sasuke was meeting the revive Hokages when Orochimaru brought them back.



Yeah he says sorry to Karin but not Sakura.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Actually, though Sasuke is sorry for what he's done to both Karin and Sakura (it's implied he's sorry for his actions to her),



Implications _really_ aren't going to cut it here.



> his bond with Karin is more that of an acquaintance, as even after all they've done together they aren't that close "more one-sided on Karin's part."



Personally I think Sakura is the closest female bond Sasuke had, but _that is really not saying much_. That being said, Sasuke did view Karin as a comrade, just go back and read the Killer Bee capture arc again. Honestly his attitude towards Karin there wasn't that different to his attitude to Sakura for most of part 1.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Implications _really_ aren't going to cut it here.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I think Sakura is the closest female bond Sasuke had, but _that is really not saying much_. That being said, Sasuke did view Karin as a comrade, just go back and read the Killer Bee capture arc again. Honestly his attitude towards Karin there wasn't that different to his attitude to Sakura for most of part 1.



True Sakura is the closest female bond Sasuke has, when they got together the dynamics of Team 7 changed little ... well maybe a little... However, being a comrade doesn't equal friendship. Sasuke and Sakura had a friendship, just like Naruto and Sasuke... unique as it is. 

Just because the Alliance members are comrades in arms doesn't mean they are all friends, they are fighting for the same goal true but that doesn't mean anything. Some will still hold some animosity towards another, but they can still learn to work with each other.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Just because the Alliance members are comrades in arms doesn't mean they are all friends, they are fighting for the same goal true but that doesn't mean anything. Some will still hold some animosity towards another, but they can still learn to work with each other.



It is highly amusing that you are the one who brings up the point of hidden animosity/a lack of trust, if I were barracking for SS that'd be a touchy subject right now .

[sp][/sp]


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> It is highly amusing that you are the one who brings up the point of hidden animosity/a lack of trust, if I were barracking for SS that'd be a touchy subject right now .
> 
> [sp][/sp]




That scene, along with the other scenes that showed the dynamics of Team 7 reunion, shows that while Sakura trust Sasuke, she doesn't fully trust him. After everything he's done the only one who fully trust him, maybe, is Naruto. You can be in love with someone but does that mean you fully trust them? No. There are some things you don't want to tell about because no matter how you love them, no matter how much you trust them, there's always that lingering doubt in your mind that says otherwise.  

Off the record, at least when Naruto gives off a fake smile it looks convincing. Sakura's looks like she's about to crap herself in public and can't hold it in any longer while telling everyone she's ok. "Yeah, I'm fine... I'm gonna need new pants but I'm fine."

Just letting you know I neither hate or like Sakura. I'm neutral, she's had moment I like, and moments I don't like. The moments I don't like are when NaruSaku fans take them out of context with little evidence or explanation, though some NaruHina fans do the same thing too true. No one's perfect.... Except Chuck Noris somehow? 

Also I never said I was a SasuSaku fan. It may happen given how she's been shown to be peerlessly in love with Sasuke, despite everything he's done, something she hasn't shown towards Naruto, despite everything he's done, being emotionally shattered when she found out that they're forced to kill him. Naruto's a close friend but that's about it. The fact that Sasuke is on the good guy's side, though he may also have a hidden agenda "in my opinion it's the destruction of the current ninja system", is a step in that direction. 

I say step. Not there yet. But still there's a chance.

Also. In manga little to no reason, in some cases, are giving why someone falls in love with another. Hell! Kishimoto said he was inspired by Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball Z and look what happened! Little to no character development between Goku and Chichi, Chichi being a supporting character, and they end up getting married. Hell Vegeta was an asshole and he ending up marring Bulma, though it was said he had a soft side he only showed privately or something like that.

In other words, Naruto could very well end up with Hinata with little to no reason explained and the same with Sasuke and Sakura. Goku and Bulma knew each other for a very long time, being only 3-4 years apart and many made the assumption she would marry Goku before she fell for Yamcha "their relationship was none existant at the time", didn't happen and super smart hot headed Bulma ended up married to arrogant avenger emo "Vegeta. Hell for all we know Naruto could either end up marrying Ino, Tenten, Karin or any other girl and no reason is given.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> That scene, along with the other scenes that showed the dynamics of Team 7 reunion, *shows that while Sakura trust Sasuke, she doesn't fully trust him.*



.



> After everything he's done the only one who fully trust him, maybe, is Naruto.



I imagine the only thing Naruto trusts Sasuke with atm is to fight him before hurting anyone else from Konoha.

*Well also not to backstab him in the current battle, but we shall see where this leads.



> You can be in love with someone but does that mean you fully trust them? No. There are some things you don't want to tell about because no matter how you love them, no matter how much you trust them, there's always that lingering doubt in your mind that says otherwise.



It sounds like you're trying to justify a relationship without trust, good luck with that.



> Off the record, at least when Naruto gives off a fake smile it looks convincing.



*Except to the readers, Sai, Tsunade, Jiraiya... need I go on?



> Sakura's looks like she's about to crap herself in public and can't hold it in any longer while telling everyone she's ok. "Yeah, I'm fine... I'm gonna need new pants but I'm fine."



Sakura does seem to have a history of smiling while lying, tbh I think it adds depth to her character when she's less straight forward.



> Just letting you know I neither hate or like Sakura. I'm neutral, she's had moment I like, and moments I don't like. The moments I don't like are when NaruSaku fans take them out of context with little evidence or explanation, though some NaruHina fans do the same thing too true. No one's perfect.... Except Chuck Noris somehow?
> 
> Also I never said I was a SasuSaku fan. It may happen given how she's been shown to be peerlessly in love with Sasuke, despite everything he's done, something she hasn't shown towards Naruto, despite everything he's done,



Well I think more of you given that you aren't an SS fan (that shit really doesn't make sense). That being said it's not really relevant to the conversation as we're talking about which pairing is the most likely to become canon, not which we like the most.

As far as your point here goes; it really goes for all pairings. The difference for Sakura->Sasuke is that her love is never really portrayed positively or leads to a good outcome, not to mention Naruto has had to kickstart her faith several times now. In a literary setting these things should be pretty grim for SS supporters.

[sp=idk what I should spoiler]The reason NS supporters are happy with the newest chapter is that it shows Sakura's concern for Naruto (yet again) and this type of thing _really_ has the potential to lead to romantic drama. Now I'm not saying it will, however it's a powerful scene and the cards do seem to be there for something to happen.

It's similar to Hinata's repeated appearances ~30-40 chapters ago and before. There were a lot of NS fans nervous and NH fans happy because it was another one of those moments that can really push a pairing forward (although the extent to which it did will of course be debated).[/sp]



> being emotionally shattered when she found out that they're forced to kill him.



She looks pretty shattered in the most recent chapters too, I wouldn't ride that point too hard if I were you.



> Naruto's a close friend but that's about it. The fact that Sasuke is on the good guy's side, though he may also have a hidden agenda "in my opinion it's the destruction of the current ninja system", is a step in that direction.
> 
> I say step. Not there yet. But still there's a chance.



I remain less than convinced of Sasuke's face-heel turn. Considering how long the chase for his redemption has gone and how dark Sasuke got as well as the rather telling scenes where no rookie trusts him, I think it's leading to a pretty large Naruto vs Sasuke fight at the end of this (and more like the last Hashi/Madara one than the first).

Let's not forget Sasuke didn't give Sakura the time of day when he was good, so even if the change of heart is genuine what exactly will change? We have seen Naruto and Sakura get a hell of a lot closer over the course of the story while Sasuke just gets more distant from Team 7.



> Also. In manga little to no reason, in some cases, are giving why someone falls in love with another. Hell! Kishimoto said he was inspired by Dragon Ball, and Dragon Ball Z and look what happened! Little to no character development between Goku and Chichi, Chichi being a supporting character, and they end up getting married. Hell Vegeta was an asshole and he ending up marring Bulma, though it was said he had a soft side he only showed privately or something like that.



I remain unimpressed with this argument, the romantic subplot was virtually nonexistent in DB and that simply cannot be said for Naruto, I think everyone acknowledges that Kishi baits quite hard sometimes . Not to mention every major pairing has had some kind of development, whether it is good or bad, this again did not happen in DB.



> In other words, Naruto could very well end up with Hinata with little to no reason explained and the same with Sasuke and Sakura. Goku and Bulma knew each other for a very long time, being only 3-4 years apart and many made the assumption she would marry Goku before she fell for Yamcha "their relationship was none existant at the time", didn't happen and super smart hot headed Bulma ended up married to arrogant avenger emo "Vegeta. Hell for all we know Naruto could either end up marrying Ino, Tenten, Karin or any other girl and no reason is given.



Sure, anything _could_ happen, but that is a damn far cry off what is _most likely_ to happen. As I said previously, Kishi has been dropping hints for quite some time for pairings, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't drop more for the pairing he wanted to be endgame.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

To each their own but to me the recent so called NaruSaku is a weak argument. It's a powerful moment true as it shows the deep friendship between Naruto and Sakura.

Consider him being dead/borderline and her trying to revive him by being forced to use drastic measures and different way when all other's have failed and she's out of chakra a romantic scene. There's no symbolism. She's just trying to save his life and keep him alive long enough for Minato to transfer the Yin half of Kurama inside him. But I digress.

Speaking of the Yin half, how will that help? I mean the Yang half represents vitality and all that physical stuff the Yin half represents the spiritual aspect? Also am I the only one getting the feeling Madara's going to either kill or extract the other half of Kurama from Minato before they get to him?


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## PAWS (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> To each their own but to me the recent so called NaruSaku is a weak argument. It's a powerful moment true as it shows the deep friendship between Naruto and Sakura.
> 
> Consider him being dead/borderline and her trying to revive him by being forced to use drastic measures and different way when all other's have failed and she's out of chakra a romantic scene. Sheesh! Get some help. There's no symbolism. She's just trying to save his life and keep him alive long enough for Minato to transfer the Yin half of Kurama inside him. But I digress.



CPR is not romantic, its Sakura's words and thoughts. Also I mean she didnt need to go that far, but she did.

It is symbolic, Sakura holds Naruto's life/heart in her hands. I mean how much more symbolic can you get.

"Your not dying on me"

"No matter what costs, there is no way I will let you die" 

"Just look now that dream is right in front of your eyes"

Call it what you want but that is beyond deep. NH/SS have never gotten this deep.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> To each their own but to me the recent so called NaruSaku is a weak argument. It's a powerful moment true as it shows the deep friendship between Naruto and Sakura.



Showing the deep friendship between Naruto and Sakura is exactly what makes it a NaruSaku scene, it doesn't have to be romantic to be good for the pairing.



> There's no symbolism. She's just trying to save his life and keep him alive long enough for Minato to transfer the Yin half of Kurama inside him. But I digress.



I have never been good at picking up symbolism, I can always only identify it in hindsight. That said it could be a scene that I recognise as symbolism after the pairing situation is resolved but as far as I'm concerned that side of it isn't worth discussing at the moment.



> Speaking of the Yin half, how will that help? I mean the Yang half represents vitality and all that physical stuff the Yin half represents the spiritual aspect? Also am I the only one getting the feeling Madara's going to either kill or extract the other half of Kurama from Minato before they get to him?



I think it's more like there's a big ass void in Naruto's chakra network at the moment and Yin Kurama can fill it (yes I realise that's an obvious set up). Although to go toe to toe with Madara simply getting Naruto back to his KCM state isn't going to cut it so I imagine something else will happen shortly after.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

I honestly think people are reading too much into the scene and the words. Sakura used almost the same words during the Chunin Exam. 

"Your stupid dream it's now right in front of us." Now

"That stupid dream of yours, I can't let you see die." Past

You're not dying on me were not the words used by Sakura. They were "I refuse to let you die." "I won't let you die." 

To me it's not really pairing or romantic deep. It shows how dedicated a friend and medic ninja Sakura is. Were Sasuke, Shizune, or, Kakashi in Naruto's place she would have done the same thing because of how much they mean to her. 

After all it's an intense emotional seen where one of her closest friends is on Death's doorstep. Do you honestly think you wouldn't say stuff like that during a moment. I've seen moments like these before in other manga, books, films, and in real life. "my own personal friends."

There are three outcomes: he dies, he survives, or she sacrifices herself so he lives "lamenting the fact she couldn't see her friend accomplish his goal, not accomplish her own, but still says it's a good death and moves on peacefully."


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## Revolution (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Actually, though Sasuke is sorry for what he's done to both Karin and Sakura (it's implied he's sorry for his actions to her), his bond with Karin is more that of an acquaintance, as even after all they've done together they aren't that close "more one-sided on Karin's part."
> 
> Also Karin's very pi-bolar. GOing from hating his guts to going obsessed crazy fangirl on his ass once more.
> 
> But to each their own.



With Karin, it's not bipolar.  It's a front.  She is hiding/denying her true feelings (and can you blame her?)

Juugo is the bipolar one


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> I honestly think people are reading too much into the scene and the words. Sakura used almost the same words during the Chunin Exam.
> 
> "Your stupid dream it's now right in front of us." Now
> 
> ...



Actions should be judged on their history/context too, there is a lot more meaning (read; idgaf whether romantic or not) to Sakura's words here than there was in the Chunin Exams, to say otherwise is being willfully ignorant imo.



> To me it's not really pairing or romantic deep. It shows how dedicated a friend and medic ninja Sakura is. Were Sasuke, Shizune, or, Kakashi in Naruto's place she would have done the same thing because of how much they mean to her.



I honestly don't think any of those three in Naruto's place would cause the reaction we are seeing now (generally a combination of shock, fear and determination). Naruto has been the hero Konoha has relied on for a while now and even longer for Sakura, none of the others actually fit that profile (although Kakashi comes closest). You can't sit there and tell me that Sakura would show this specific reaction for Sasuke when she's tried to kill him previously, that's just not how people work.



> After all it's an intense emotional seen where one of her closest friends is on Death's doorstep. Do you honestly think you wouldn't say stuff like that during a moment. I've seen moments like these before in other manga, books, films, and in real life. "my own personal friends."



Sure, what matters to a lot of NS fans is that it is happening though and it's Sakura there with Naruto.



> There are three outcomes: he dies, he survives, or she sacrifices herself so he lives "lamenting the fact she couldn't see her friend accomplish his goal, not accomplish her own, but still says it's a good death and moves on peacefully."



Oh please, both Naruto and Sakura are going to survive this.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Coulda fooled me with the way she acts.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Actions should be judged on their history/context too, there is a lot more meaning (read; idgaf whether romantic or not) to Sakura's words here than there was in the Chunin Exams, to say otherwise is being willfully ignorant imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's what people thought about Jiraiya vs Pain. Look how that turned out. Funny thing if you wanna look into symbolism, did you know that the symbolism for Sakura is that it represents life. It also represents beauty and an extremely short life span. 

Plus when you include the fact that Kishimoto didn't want Sakura as the main heroine and despite him being fond of her he has a hard time portraying her as one sometimes. Doing better now though. Kishimoto could just suddenly have Sakura sacrifice herself to bring Naruto back to life, she may get revived, she may not, it may not even happen.  

Overall is this a NaruSaku moment. Yes ... somewhat. It's a NaruSaku moment that shows how deep their friendship is. Is it a romantic or pairing NaruSaku moment that may lead to something else later on... No, not even close.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Hero of Konoha has relied on and Sakura? What! Sakura didn't view Naruto as a hero until Konoha did, Invasion of Pain Arc. Though if you're talking about her relying on him then yes she has relied on him and it's caused him internal suffering. Sure she thought greatly of him but so did others. Sasuke trying to kill her didn't stop Sakura from still loving him, just like Jiraiya said he'd kill Tsunade despite loving her if she betrayed Konoha.



Yeah that was a bit of a mis-step on my part there, I meant it more like you said; Sakura has relied on Naruto for a long time, although to me that translates to thinking he's a hero quite well (during/after the Pain arc).



> Yeah, that's what people thought about Jiraiya vs Pain. Look how that turned out. Funny thing if you wanna look into symbolism, did you know that the symbolism for Sakura is that it represents life. It also represents beauty and an extremely short life span.



Firstly I believe I said I'm not really into symbolism (outside of hindsight), so I can't comment on that. Also people called Jiraiya dying from a mile off, there was a chance he'd survive but it was less likely than the alternative. On the other hand everyone know Pain would survive that encounter.



> Plus when you include the fact that Kishimoto didn't want Sakura as the main heroine and despite him being fond of her he has a hard time portraying her as one sometimes. Doing better now though. Kishimoto could just suddenly have Sakura sacrifice herself to bring Naruto back to life, she may get revived, she may not, it may not even happen.



Sakura's not going to sacrifice herself when there's options like Yin-Kurama or the chakra tree fruit around, not only that but she's a part of the Naruto vs Sasuke thing (and no I don't mean fighting for her heart).



> Overall is this a NaruSaku moment. Yes ... somewhat. It's a NaruSaku moment that shows how deep their friendship is. Is it a romantic or pairing NaruSaku moment that may lead to something else later on... No, not even close.



/Shrug, that's pretty much what I was saying.

Also claiming it _can't_ lead to something later on? Lol this is one of the most common tropes around, having characters close to death is historically a great catalyst for romantic subplots. Note that disagreeing with the statement that "it can't" doesn't mean I'm saying that "it will".


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Sakura's not going to sacrifice herself when there's options like Yin-Kurama or the chakra tree fruit around, not only that but she's a part of the Naruto vs Sasuke thing (and no I don't mean fighting for her heart).


Yeah, but if the Yin Kurama half thing doesn't work, say because Madara destroys Minato or extracts it from him before they can. In this war their are too many variables to consider. 


/Shrug, that's pretty much what I was saying.

Also claiming it _can't_ lead to something later on? Lol this is one of the most common tropes around, having characters close to death is historically a great catalyst for romantic subplots. Note that disagreeing with the statement that "it can't" doesn't mean I'm saying that "it will".[/QUOTE]

True, I find it cliche if stuff like that does happen, though the chances of something like this happening aren't guaranteed or one hundred percent. Especially the whole main guy gets main girl crap. However, what you said does make sense. However, during the Wave Arc Sakura thought Sasuke was dead and that can be interpreted as a catalyst for a romantic subplot. Hell even finding about his current condition can make it more so for Sakura loving Sasuke. Same thing can be said for Naruto and Hinata, Pain Invasion Arc.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 10, 2014)

Sorry for the bad "quote" thing. Still new at this.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> Sorry for the bad "quote" thing. Still new at this.



Just fyi; instead of double posting if no one has replied, you should instead edit your first post with what you want to add instead.

[sp=Quotes]you can use [ quote]_...text to quote here..._[ /quote] without the spaces inside the brackets to quote small sections if you have a large post you want to break up, it's also nice if the first part has a link to the post you are replying to (so just cut it off with a [ /quote]).[/sp]



legend of kyubi12 said:


> Sakura's not going to sacrifice herself when there's options like Yin-Kurama or the chakra tree fruit around, not only that but she's a part of the Naruto vs Sasuke thing (and no I don't mean fighting for her heart).



Eh, you have to remember that Minato would also be there too and as he's already dead he'd be the first to sacrifice himself (and he'll have a large bag of tricks should it come to that). The chances of Sakura sacrificing herself for Naruto here are slim to none tbh.



> Yeah, but if the Yin Kurama half thing doesn't work, say because Madara destroys Minato or extracts it from him before they can. In this war their are too many variables to consider.



I can't remember, does Madara have access to Obito's Space/Time jutsu? Without it there's virtually no chance of pinning Minato down to extract the other half of the Kyuubi.



> True, I find it cliche. Especially the whole main guy gets main girl crap. However, what you said does make sense. However, during the Wave Arc Sakura thought Sasuke was dead and that can be interpreted as a catalyst for a romantic subplot. Hell even finding about his current condition can make it more so. Same thing can be said for Naruto and Hinata, Pain Invasion Arc.



And we seem to be in agreement here ^_^.


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## SoulFire (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> *It seems like we fundamentally disagree on Naruto's character then*, as I think it'd be entirely in keeping with his nature in part 2 to make such a (joking) claim, particularly if Sakura is around.



No doubt about it! 



> There are many ways to respond affirmatively to the question "is that your girlfriend?" without saying girlfriend, why is this even being discussed?



Because some of us don't think Naruto was attempting to respond affirmatively to the question.



> I don't think anyone is claiming it as a romantic moment, what they are saying is that Naruto wants Sakura to be his girlfriend.



I never said anything about a 'romantic moment' as there was nothing romantic about the scene. What I'm saying is that I don't think that Naruto expressing any wishful thinking about having Sakura as his girlfriend. He was simply trying to honestly tell his father of the type of relationship that they _do_ have, which is not romantic in nature.



> Ah yes, 'she still loves him'. You know for all that love that she has for Sasuke, Sakura has been much more worried about Naruto in the past few hundred chapters.



And why shouldn't Sakura care about Naruto? He is one of her precious people--one of the two boys she wants most to protect and to save. She loves him dearly. She simply is not in love with him. 



> Then we have scenes with Sakura being miserable over Sasuke and mutual murder attempts and what not. Combine this with neither Naruto, Sakura or Sasuke being confirmed to have changed their feelings yet and the question "who is the most likely person to?" still remains firmly in the court of Sakura.



Sakura may be miserable over what Sasuke has become, but she has not given up on him. Sasuke's feelings (about everyone and everything) are purposely kept murky. As for Naruto, with all that has taken place in recent months, I see him as the one firmly in the position of 'most likely' to move on. 



> Might I also mention that it's been over a hundred chapters since the last time we got a peek into Sakura's head and current manga events are quite nicely lining up for some drama.



Kishi is definitely lining up his final Team 7 developments . The drama has already begun. First will be Sakura's part in the saving of Naruto and then comes Sasuke. I think we can count on it.



> "unwavering".
> 
> Good one.



You may not like it, but it is true. 

I agree that in no way is Sakura going to die. Too many options exist for that to happen--and how can she and Team 7 resolve their issues should that happen?


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Because some of us don't think Naruto was attempting to respond affirmatively to the question.



You know the humour in that scene simply wouldn't work if Naruto didn't respond in the affirmative right? Let's take a moment to see what the scene would be like if you are correct though;

Minato: Is that your girlfriend Naruto?
Naruto: eh, not really.
*Sakura hits Naruto*

I _really_ don't think this is a road you want to go down .



> I never said anything about a 'romantic moment' as there was nothing romantic about the scene. What I'm saying is that I don't think that Naruto expressing any wishful thinking about having Sakura as his girlfriend. He was simply trying to honestly tell his father of the type of relationship that they _do_ have, which is not romantic in nature.



If there was something romantic about the scene then it would be a romantic moment, conversely because there wasn't anything romantic about the scene, it wasn't a romantic moment, we're really just getting into semantics here.

As I said before, the scene simply doesn't work without Naruto responding that Sakura is his girlfriend.



> And why shouldn't Sakura care about Naruto? He is one of her precious people--one of the two boys she wants most to protect and to save. She loves him dearly. She simply is not in love with him.



I wonder if you would keep to the same tune if it was Naruto in Sakura's place and Hinata in Naruto's.

However I digress; from an endgame standpoint I am utterly fine trading whatever shiptease moments the other pairings have for scenes like these between Naruto and Sakura.



> Sakura may be miserable over what Sasuke has become, but she has not given up on him.



*At the moment.

I think you need to stop riding Sakura's hope in Sasuke given the rather prominent examples of when she did give up on him.



> Sasuke's feelings (about everyone and everything) are purposely kept murky.



_Murky_ huh, is that what we're calling it nowadays? 



> As for Naruto, with all that has taken place in recent months, I see him as the one firmly in the position of 'most likely' to move on.



Again the problem with this is that we are in Naruto's viewpoint for so much of the story, so we really need to see it happen. I mean sure it's more possible now than it was a few months ago that Naruto would move on, that still certainly doesn't mean it's the likeliest to happen, especially with some rather dark scenes of Sakura->Sasuke _still_ kicking around.

Let's be honest here, the only real response SS has at the moment is 'all this retarded shit has happened between Sakura and Sasuke and she still loves him!'. In the context of a story that is like taking pride that you live in a house made of termites. It's entirely because so many terrible things have happened between Sakura and Sasuke and the light in which her feelings seem to be shown recently that people think she's going to move on. They've been thinking it for pretty much the entirity of part 2 and you don't get to throw that out the window just because _she still loves him_.



> You may not like it, but it is true.



It really, really isn't though .


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## Biast (Feb 11, 2014)

How did Sakura managed to revert the curse mark in the Forest of Death? Always wondered, never fully understood it.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Feb 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Of course Naruto knows that Sakura is his friend. Minato doesn't really have a clue as to who she is and asks if she is his girlfriend. Naruto is trying to clarify that _literally_ that is the case (girl and friend). Just doesn't do a very good job.
> 
> His answer was hesitant and thoughtful, because he's searching for the proper words to make his case clear.


You talk as if hes in front of trial and jury when he wasn't even the one being addressed. The way you make his answer out would make sense with a frantic Naruto, one who say got caught accidentally in a compromising position with Sakura and is trying to explain that "its not like that". Naruto has his fair share of idiotic moments and I am the kind of person that will point that out whenever the opportunity arises yet I feel you are basically giving him no credit at all for being capable of saying something very simple. Naruto's idiocy is typically brought on by forgetfulness(forgetting Nagato has an ability that could absorb ninjutsu) or being naive(thinking the pregnant Kurenai was fat), not being incapable of a simple answer of "No, shes just a friend.", especially in what was a rather calm atmosphere and Naruto in a relaxed mood. 

You would also think that he would argue his case if Sakura had just misunderstood him. It would be unlike Naruto if he was bumbling his words in that instance to not yell that he didn't mean it like that.

Your argument does have one correct point in all of it in that it is playing on team 7 nostalgia, part of which is Naruto's feelings for Sakura. Really though, its 632 which is playing off of that with Naruto getting annoyed by Sakura thanking only Sasuke for saving her(which is a pretty twisted throwback to Sakura thinking Sasuke saved her from Gaara)




> I've recently seen a new interpretation regarding those sounds at the beginning of Naruto's answer, but I am not well versed in Japanese, so I can't verify it. Here it is:
> 'The Japanese have several words for yes and no. For "yes", はい (hai) and ええ (ee) are polite forms, うん (n) is used among friends. For "no", いいえ (iie) and いえ (ie) are polite, and ううん (nn) is used between friends. The intonation of ううん starts high, drops and then rises again. うん and ううん aren't really words, but more sounds, like the English "uhuh", and "uh-uh". Link removed
> I'm wondering if that "u~~~~~~n" isn't actually "uun" and not "un"...which would mean his first response was an unsure negative...then a questioning positive.'


I'm not sure how this supports your argument that he was trying to make a distinction between girlfriend and girl friend. Its rather been proven quite soundly that there is a more profound distinction between the words then exist in the English language.




> I doubt that either of these terms are sufficient to what is meant in Japanese--sometimes things just don't have an completely equivalent translation. But they are not self-assured and definite--they are similar to 'kinda, sorta'. If there is no clear word for friend who is a girl, then Naruto is trying to explain that fact and coming up short.


While there are some difficulties specific to certain languages(I've heard that other languages don't have the problem that the English language does when trying to speak of one individual whose gender is unknown, as "they" is meant for multiple) but it is a worldwide stretch to suggest that the Japanese language lacks a way of saying "female friend" just because their language isn't juvenile enough to combine gender with the word friend to describe an unmarried couple(even though it does work well in establishing that friendship is an important aspect of a romantic relationship).



> Given that this scene took place in the chapter titled 'Team 7' tells me that the behaviors presented are intended to call back to the old 'Team 7' feel of the early years. So yes, it is a bout Sakura and Naruto--but also about them reverting to the dynamic they shared back in part one.


What actually happens in a chapter is more indicative of intention than chapter title. In 631 we have very little team 7 interaction, that happens in the chapter after that. 631 mainly consists of Naruto and Sakura interacting with each other and Minato and Sasuke interacting with the Rookies with his Hokage declaration.


I could go on but I'd just be repeating myself from many times in the past and I'm rather sure you've seen those posts before.


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## CalmPurple (Feb 11, 2014)

Biast said:


> How did Sakura managed to revert the curse mark in the Forest of Death? Always wondered, never fully understood it.



She was able to snap Sasuke out of it by hugging him.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 11, 2014)

What specifically are we talking about right now?

Do many long comments I don't wanna burn through to catch up


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## Kage (Feb 11, 2014)

Biast said:


> How did Sakura managed to revert the curse mark in the Forest of Death? Always wondered, never fully understood it.



What's there to understand? Sasuke was not overly fond of having her worry about him. It wasn't even exclusive to Sakura either, just the thought of his team worrying about him was enough to have him fight back the curse seal again. 


*Spoiler*: _no hugs required_ 











WolfPrinceKiba said:


> it is a worldwide stretch to suggest that the Japanese language lacks a way of saying "female friend" just because their language isn't juvenile enough to combine gender with the word friend to describe an unmarried couple.


I don't think even the English language is that juvenile...


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## Biast (Feb 11, 2014)

Kage said:


> What's there to understand? Sasuke was not overly fond of having her worry about him. It wasn't even exclusive to Sakura either, just the thought of his team worrying about him was enough to have him fight back the curse seal again.



I was just wondering, always thought it was because of the hug she gave him. But then again, as you cleverly mentioned, he did it again by himself in the fight against Yoroi. 

Still I think the two situations are a bit different just because against Yoroi he was actually trying to fight against the seal's transformation (which would make it easier for him to revert back to normal). Meanwhile, when he was going ape shit on the Sound Four in the forest, he wasn't trying to fight it at all, he just gave in to the rage. So doesn't it mean that Sakura had it harder to revert Sasuke to his normal self due to the fact that he wasn't trying to fight it at all? Basically leading up to this conclusion:  hug power > will power.


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## Kage (Feb 11, 2014)

Biast said:


> I was just wondering, always thought it was because of the hug she gave him. But then again, as you cleverly mentioned, he did it again by himself in the fight against Yoroi.
> 
> Still I think the two situations are a bit different just because against Yoroi he was actually trying to fight against the seal's transformation (which would make it easier for him to revert back to normal). Meanwhile, when he was going ape shit on the Sound Four in the forest, he wasn't trying to fight it at all, he just gave in to the rage. So doesn't that mean that Sakura had it harder to revert Sasuke to his normal self due to the fact that he wasn't trying to fight it at all?



He let it take control prior because he wasn't given a reason to will it away until Sakura approached him. When it happened again it was less welcome after coming to the conclusion it does more harm than good but his method for fighting it back again was ultimately the same.

I think Orochimaru would have been a lot more worried about Sakura's influence on him  if it was supposed to mean anything more than that.


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## Biast (Feb 11, 2014)

Kage said:


> He let it take control prior because he wasn't given a reason to will it away until Sakura approached him. When it happened again it was less welcome after coming to the conclusion it does more harm than good but his method for fighting it back again was ultimately the same.
> 
> I think Orochimaru would have been a lot more worried about Sakura's influence on him  if it was supposed to mean anything more than that.


Yeah, your point makes sense, but knowing Orochimaru, he probably didn't know Sakura/wasn't interested in her (he could blame him, she was the fodder of all fodders  ) to know she had an influence on him. On the other hand, Naruto was quite famous, and he was considered Sasuke's ''best'' friend, so Orochimaru's worry was quite well founded.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 11, 2014)

CalmPurple said:


> She was able to snap Sasuke out of it by hugging him.



It wasn't really a hug, more of her attempt to try and physically restrain him from breaking limbs and stuff


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## Sys (Feb 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Of course Naruto knows that Sakura is his friend. Minato doesn't really have a clue as to who she is and asks if she is his girlfriend. Naruto is trying to clarify that _literally_ that is the case (girl and friend). Just doesn't do a very good job.
> 
> His answer was hesitant and thoughtful, because he's searching for the proper words to make his case clear.
> 
> I've seen it said that what Naruto said to Minato was rude and thoughtless in regard to Hinata (agreeing that Sakura is his gf). I'm saying that what he said was no such claim and that Hinata was not bothered by it.



Hi SoulFire,

I would like to point out something, as you seem to misunderstand that part a little bit. 

The ambiguity that may appear in the English translation between "girlfriend" and "girl friend" actually only exists in English languange because the word "girlfirend" is composed of the words "girl" and "friend".
But, as it has been pointed out by translators, the word used in Japanese - kanojo 彼女-  is not composed of the words "girl" and "friend"  and therefore it can not be mistaken or interpreted for anything else than what it means : lover (source ). 
Even if one would try to decompose the word into kanjis, it would become : 
彼 : pronounced ka / a - means : 'that' (source )
女 : pronounced onna / me - means : 'woman' (source )

So it is not possible that in the original version Naruto tries to replace "girlfriend" with "girl" and "friend" as you believe to be the case, because kanojo just can not be read, heard or understood as "girl friend". Even if he really did try to decompose kanojo into kanjis, it would be in "that" and "woman", which would not really make any sense.

Both Minato and Naruto meant "lover" here, there is no room for debate about that.

Now as for the reason why Naruto hesitated, and the reason why Sakura got angry about it, this is another story.


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## Kakugo (Feb 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I've recently seen a new interpretation regarding those sounds at the beginning of Naruto's answer, but I am not well versed in Japanese, so I can't verify it. Here it is:
> 'The Japanese have several words for yes and no. For "yes", はい (hai) and ええ (ee) are polite forms, うん (n) is used among friends. For "no", いいえ (iie) and いえ (ie) are polite, and ううん (nn) is used between friends. The intonation of ううん starts high, drops and then rises again. うん and ううん aren't really words, but more sounds, like the English "uhuh", and "uh-uh". Link removed
> I'm wondering if that "u~~~~~~n" isn't actually "uun" and not "un"...which would mean his first response was an unsure negative...then a questioning positive.'



Are you serious? I already went over this with you in one of my earlier replies. I speak the language and offered a step-by-step Japanese for dummies break down to the translation and yet you are still relentlessly disputing it. What part of "there is no term for a "girl who is a friend" in Japanese" don't you understand?


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## PAWS (Feb 11, 2014)

Honestly you just have to accept the fact that Naruto acknowledged his feelings for Sakura yet again. He understood what Minato was saying and answered how he actually felt. And this should come as no surprise as you should have already know who he likes, and there was nothing that said otherwise. He has liked Sakura for a long time and hasnt changed his feelings.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 11, 2014)

Can't we just check the shonen translation or something? This debate has been going on for a while now we need something new


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## PAWS (Feb 11, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> Can't we just check the shonen translation or something? This debate has been going on for a while now we need something new



Its already been checked like 8 times and its clear the translation was girlfriend/lover.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 11, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Its already been checked like 8 times and its clear the translation was girlfriend/lover.



Nevermind then. 

Also on another note, not to sound like a noob but I never knew shonen translated them so fast,  always thought they waited to translate them 'till they reached the US


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## PAWS (Feb 11, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> Nevermind then.
> 
> Also on another note, not to sound like a noob but I never knew shonen translated them so fast,  always thought they waited to translate them 'till they reached the US



I dont know how it works either, so from one noob to another I believe Viz has official translations but I am not sure.


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## SoulFire (Feb 11, 2014)

Sys said:


> Hi SoulFire,
> 
> I would like to point out something, as you seem to misunderstand that part a little bit.
> 
> ...



Hi *Sys*!

Just to let you know, I'm not assuming that Minato is saying 'girlfriend' as would be said in English, nor do I think that Naruto is trying to replace the word 'girlfriend' with 'girl friend'. Naruto is trying to explain that their relationship is _not_ what Minato is inferring and failing miserably (perhaps because there is no word for a girl who is a friend?). He obviously adds that 'more or less'/ 'sort of' at the end of his answer, which shows he's not in complete agreement with the question. For him to make a clearer answer would destroy the impetus for the humorous nostalgic scene.

I cannot, however, imagine that the Japanese word stands _solely_ for 'lover', which is an awfully presumptive word for Minato to use when referring to someone he has just met simply because she is healing his son. I also have my doubts as to the veracity of all things Wiki. 




> Mr Horrible said:
> 
> 
> > You know the humour in that scene simply wouldn't work if Naruto didn't respond in the affirmative right? Let's take a moment to see what the scene would be like if you are correct though;
> ...


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## Kage (Feb 11, 2014)

Biast said:


> Yeah, your point makes sense, but knowing Orochimaru, he probably didn't know Sakura/wasn't interested in her (he could blame him, she was the fodder of all fodders  ) to know she had an influence on him. On the other hand, Naruto was quite famous, and he was considered Sasuke's ''best'' friend, so Orochimaru's worry was quite well founded.



Kabuto was spying on Sasuke for him when Orochimaru wasn't snooping around himself. If she did anything worth relaying to his boss he definitely would have mentioned it.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hold on while I jump in the car!!
> 
> Sakura would not have gotten angry if Naruto hadn't mucked up his response. He did not give a clear 'not really' answer. What would be the humor in that?
> 
> Since I never claimed it to be a romantic moment, I don't know what you're going on about.  I do think that the joke works (for Kishi, anyway) without Naruto fibbing about his relationship with Sakura. It simply becomes another 'dumb Naruto' joke, topped off with Sakura's angry misunderstanding.



I believe others who know far more about Japanese than I do seem to be taking up this battle. That being said if there's no platonic version of girlfriend in Japanese then the ambiguity you are relying upon simply doesn't exist. You need to remember that Naruto is brash though and he's going to want to show off to his dad (and to think that Minato wasn't even there for the hug ).

Just coincidentally, are you from the camp that thinks Naruto was hurting Hinata with this scene (assuming it doesn't follow your interpretation)?



> Probably not, as I don't find Naruto's romantic attachment to Sakura anywhere near to the feelings she continues to hold for Sasuke.



/shrug, we have a reason for that.

Speaking of this topic, I noticed previously you claimed that Naruto stopped pursuing Sakura out of respect for her feelings for Sasuke. This again seems to be an attempt to get around the actual statements in the manga; where Naruto doesn't think he deserves Sakura due to not being able to save Sasuke yet. This is actually _very_ much in keeping with Naruto's character as it's also the reason why Naruto feels he can't become Hokage yet.

I think in discussions like these we should acknowledge that the best solution is also generally the simplest, as long as it works for all parts of a scene.



> That's definitely what we have to work with!



History shapes future expectations though, because Sakura has given up on Sasuke several times on the past, saying that she believes in him currently is not a great argument particularly when all any pairing needs to become canon is a single scene.



> As long as Sakura continues to have that hope in Sasuke I will continue to ride it. As far as Sakura giving up on him: Her feelings for him have not wavered, even when she made the attempt to kill him in order to save him from himself (which is why she couldn't do it).



Her feelings have not wavered sure, but the portrayal of them has gotten significantly darker ever since roughly when team 7 found out Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki. 



> We've been catching glimpses of Naruto's viewpoint throughout this war arc, which is why it's more possible now to consider that he might be ready to move on. Certainly presents that if not the likeliest, it is every bit _as likely_ to happen.



We've been _in_ Naruto's viewpoint for pretty much the entire war arc. Not only that but Naruto has historically been the most stubborn character in regards to his bonds, there's simply no way you're going to get me to agree that he's likely to change his viewpoint outside of something that is clearly more than just comrades (read; a blush or hug or something).

And no sorry I don't agree that hand holding counts .

Oh and for the record, Naruto is the one who has been unwavering in his pursuit of Sasuke (bar a hiccup in the snow ).



> Different folks see different things in the story, that much is pretty clear. Sure, Sakura has been given plenty of reasons to stop loving Sasuke and to move on, but for all her worries about his current mindset, she has not. I'm sure that is annoying if one doesn't particularly appreciate this pairing or one or more of he characters involved. But it remains true, no matter how 'retarded' it may seem. In the end, Kishi will decide what exactly is going to be 'tossed out the window'.



You know what I call 540/635? In-universe ramifications for SS. That is _big_ considering how unwilling Kishi seems to be to actually cause the big 3 to change. Those chapters are definitely showing that Sakura's feelings at the moment are not good.

Also I noted in one of your previous responses that you believe Sakura's words in 635. It should be pretty clear to anyone who reads the chapter that the whole "your smile is false" thing is meant to invalidate or cast doubt on her statement that she's happy Sasuke's back and she trusts him. Let's be honest here, it would be absolutely dumb as fuck to trust Sasuke at this point in the story and with that scene there's simply no real argument for Sakura trusting him.



> We'll see soon enough, eh?



Except for you know, when Naruto failed to catch Sasuke the first time and after Sasuke joined the Akatsuki (coincidentally the very organisation that wanted to kill Naruto).


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## Njaa (Feb 11, 2014)

Wow people are still bringing up the "girlfriend" thing, Minato asked Sakura if she was Naruto's girlfriend and he answered "yes more of less it". The very next chapter after seeing her power he mentions how he shouldn't poke fun of her or she'll kill him. To me that always implied he was just fucking with her in the first place when he butted in to answer the question himself.


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## Kage (Feb 11, 2014)

The scene with her demonstrating her power is almost an exact replica of his reaction to seeing her power during their second bell test. He didn't exactly stop flirting with her after that either despite realizing the risks of 'joking around'


*Spoiler*: __ 








It's a hard pill to swallow that _maybe_ he's _not quite_ indisputably falling in love with Hinata at this point I guess...


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## Sys (Feb 12, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hi *Sys*!
> 
> Just to let you know, I'm not assuming that Minato is saying 'girlfriend' as would be said in English, nor do I think that Naruto is trying to replace the word 'girlfriend' with 'girl friend'. Naruto is trying to explain that their relationship is _not_ what Minato is inferring and failing miserably (perhaps because there is no word for a girl who is a friend?). He obviously adds that 'more or less'/ 'sort of' at the end of his answer, which shows he's not in complete agreement with the question. For him to make a clearer answer would destroy the impetus for the humorous nostalgic scene.
> 
> I cannot, however, imagine that the Japanese word stands _solely_ for 'lover', which is an awfully presumptive word for Minato to use when referring to someone he has just met simply because she is healing his son. I also have my doubts as to the veracity of all things Wiki.



Hi SoulFire,

But it is exactly that : wether you like it or not, there is no other meaning for the word kanojo than either "she" when it is used as a pronoun or "girlfriend / lover" when it is used as a noun. If you don't trust Wiki, here are other sources :




It really does mean what everyone here is telling you it means : lover / girlfriend.

Minato may seem presumptive to you when he says that, but it is exactly what he is saying.

Then, why Naruto is hesitating is up to debate, but I think a much more reasonable explanation is that he says "more or less' because he does not believe that she loves him.


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## Kurama (Feb 12, 2014)

Yo, Sys. 

Soul isn't debating the word Minato is using, we all acknowledge its meaning, its an innocent question. What we're saying is that Naruto may have been attempting to make the distinction that she is his girl-friend, but for humor's sake he stumbles over his explanation cuing Sakura's fury. Yall are welcome to interpret it as affirmation of his feelings whatever you may presume them to be to still exist, but personally I'd want something a little stronger than typical slapstick. On top of that, this is hilariously used as evidence he cannot possibly be growing closer to Hinata despite the clear development between them focused directly on her sacrifice [which in contrast to Naruto and Sakura's occasional focus on the PoaL, results in positive progression], while Sakura clearly showing that Sasuke is her "someone else" is somehow no barrier to her having a romantic epiphany over Naruto despite his total non existence in her romantic thought [again, by contrast, when Minato asks the gf question It is directed specifically at Sakura] as well as her outright repulsion towards the mere implication of a romantic relationship with him after having already acting on the idea that he's in love with her by responding with a lie, to which Naruto responds with clear understanding of where her feelings lie with not a hint of jealousy. That's why the idea of him being steadfast in his affection for Sakura while she's supposedly most likely to change her feelings is so ridiculous to me, because despite her wariness of his motives, she still loves Sasuke. And I just don't see Kishi setting Hinata up for failure.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 12, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Yo, Sys.
> 
> Soul isn't debating the word Minato is using, we all acknowledge its meaning, its an innocent question. What we're saying is that Naruto may have been attempting to *make the distinction that she is his girl-friend*, but for humor's sake he stumbles over his explanation cuing Sakura's fury



Make the distinction between girlfriend(romantic) and girlfriend(fried who is a girl)? This seems to have been rather comprehensively disproved with the lack of the latter existing in the Japanese language. I should probably bow out here as it's been years since I've studied it.

Again I think Occam's Razor applies here, convoluted explanations for events should never take precedence over the straight forward ones.



> Yall are welcome to interpret it as affirmation of his feelings whatever you may presume them to be to still exist, but personally I'd want something a little stronger than typical slapstick.



As I recall you don't like Naruto and Sai's conversation either back in ~450.

So I'm going to bring it up as serious confirmation of Naruto's feelings ^_^.



> On top of that, this is hilariously used as evidence he cannot possibly be growing closer to Hinata despite the clear development between them focused directly on her sacrifice [which in contrast to Naruto and Sakura's occasional focus on the PoaL, results in positive progression],



I believe this is where I get to use the much repeated closeness=!romance line that is so often used against NS. If you claim that a hug is purely platonic, hand holding isn't going to cut it.



> while Sakura clearly showing that Sasuke is her "someone else" is somehow no barrier to her having a romantic epiphany over Naruto despite his total non existence in her romantic thought



Ah, that is a good point you have there.



> [again, by contrast, when Minato asks the gf question It is directed specifically at Sakura]



Minato also make some other comments about Sakura .



> as well as her outright repulsion towards the mere implication of a romantic relationship with him



Since when does anger equal revulsion?



> after having already acting on the idea that he's in love with her by responding with a lie,



So when she lied to Sai, she hit him.

And when she lied to Naruto she was preparing to commit an act he'd see as a grave betrayal.

What do you think she's going to do with the recent lie about Sasuke? 



> to which Naruto responds with clear understanding of where her feelings lie with not a hint of jealousy.



As Soulfire said, Naruto has matured significantly. Also he's known about Sakura's feelings ever since the end of part 1.



> That's why the idea of him being steadfast in his affection for Sakura while she's supposedly most likely to change her feelings is so ridiculous to me, because despite her wariness of his motives, *she still loves Sasuke.*



Ah, there's the catchphrase. I believe I've made my statement about this just a post or two ago.



> And I just don't see Kishi setting Hinata up for failure.



Yet you see Kishi setting Naruto up for failure?

Because let's get this straight, if you ever decide to follow the majority opinion on Naruto's joke to his dad, you'll also admit that Naruto still wants Sakura as his girlfriend. This means either Naruto or Hinata aren't going to get what they originally want.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 12, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Wow people are still bringing up the "girlfriend" thing, Minato asked Sakura if she was Naruto's girlfriend and he answered "yes more of less it". The very next chapter after seeing her power he mentions how he shouldn't poke fun of her or she'll kill him. To me that always implied he was just fucking with her in the first place when he butted in to answer the question himself.



Even if that were the case (it isn't, but I'll humour you), how is that evidence of him having any sort of feelings for Hinata? Because that would be a pretty big fucking deal.  That scene was simply a confirmation of what we already knew (that Naruto still had romantic feelings for Sakura, both confirmed by himself and other characters multiple times throughout part 2) and now its turn into an argument of semantics and bullshit. There are _numerous_ legitimate arguments you can make against NS, this isn't one of them AT ALL. It was as blatant as you can get.


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

It doesn't appear to be a moment that was ever meant to be taken seriously 
If this is the moment that is supposed to show that NS is still big in the pairing game...seems underwhelming? I don't know. When I look at it compared to all the NH moments that have happened, it simply stays at that comedic level in terms of actual importance. 
I don't get the large debate over it, seems like desperation in a way.
But maybe Kishimoto really wanted to hit home with the reader that Naruto clearly still loves Sakura despite his previous intimate developments with Hinata...I can't see it though. I'd think if Kishimoto really wanted to do that, he'd portray Naruto's feelings in a serious situation, instead of a comedic one which makes the dialogue much easier to brush over.


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## Kage (Feb 12, 2014)

When Kishi does portray Naruto's feelings about Sakura in a "serious situation" it gets taken lightly anyway. Naruto has to do nothing short of sticking his tongue down her throat I think and even then he might be accused of being some creepy rapist or something. Look at the mental gymnastics required for something as straightforward as "girlfriend" and an answer in the affirmative... there is definitely some desperation going on here.

All the "girlfriend" scene does is imply Naruto still has the hots for Sakura which clearly doesn't sit well with any who believe he's just had a love life changing intimate moment with Hinata. I mean it's not like he couldn't get with Hinata despite, it just makes NH look bad. Which is to be expected no matter the pair really.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 12, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It doesn't appear to be a moment that was ever meant to be taken seriously
> If this is the moment that is supposed to show that NS is still big in the pairing game...seems underwhelming? I don't know. When I look at it compared to all the NH moments that have happened, it simply stays at that comedic level in terms of actual importance.
> I don't get the large debate over it, seems like desperation in a way.
> But maybe Kishimoto really wanted to hit home with the reader that Naruto clearly still loves Sakura despite his previous intimate developments with Hinata...I can't see it though. I'd think if Kishimoto really wanted to do that, he'd portray Naruto's feelings in a serious situation, instead of a comedic one which makes the dialogue much easier to brush over.



Intimate? Da Fuck? HAND HOLDING is now considered "Intimate" now? 

Here I was thinking Intimacy was kissing, making love, and having a deep connection with your partner.  

The closest couple in this manga to have an "intimate" moment would be TsuDan and even then that's stretching it.  

This is why I can't take NH seriously. Kishi made the girl give up IMMEDIATELY after she tried and failed to get to Naruto, not that she could do ANYTHING if she could've gotten to him. You all *literally* act as if Hinata is entitled to Naruto "because she luvz him omg!".  Sorry, but no. She has to do more than just scream Naruto-kun in her head 24/7 to earn her so called "man she loves."


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## Kakugo (Feb 12, 2014)

Let's get real here. It really doesn't matter what kishi does to re-illustrate that Naruto loves Sakura and not Hinata, because the NH/SS supporters simply don't want to accept that reality. Be it comedic, serious, straight-forward, in-directly, *nothing* thus far has illustrated that Naruto no longer loves Sakura romantically. Despite how many times Naruto had convinced himself that Sakura doesn't love him in return, that hasn't stopped him from continuing to love her. If that hasn't stopped him yet, then I don't see what else would. Is it possible to change at some point? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely though? Highly doubtful. 

I've said it before, I'll say it again here: Unlike Naruto, Sasuke, OR Hinata, Sakura has been the *one character* to demonstrate enough internal conflict and potential to switch sides. Naruto has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Hinata, Sasuke has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Sakura, Hinata is one-dimensional and doesn’t see the world outside of Naruto, and Sakura has numerously behaved in ways towards Naruto that could easily be perceived as romantic (hence why her feelings are often subject to debate). So far, the only two who are likely to reciprocate to one another are Naruto and Sakura.

Oh, and yeah. Please put that retarded "girl who is a friend" trope to rest. I already took a big shit on that ridiculous argument some pages ago.


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

Kurama said:


> . And I just don't see Kishi setting Hinata up for failure.



Yet he will set up Naruto for failure?


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Let's get real here. It really doesn't matter what kishi does to re-illustrate that Naruto loves Sakura and not Hinata, because the NH/SS supporters simply don't want to accept that reality. Be it comedic, serious, straight-forward, in-directly, *nothing* thus far has illustrated that Naruto no longer loves Sakura romantically. Despite how many times Naruto had convinced himself that Sakura doesn't love him in return, that hasn't stopped him from continuing to love her. If that hasn't stopped him yet, then I don't see what else would. Is it possible to change at some point? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely though? Highly doubtful.
> 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again here: Unlike Naruto, Sasuke, OR Hinata, *Sakura has been the one character to demonstrate enough internal conflict and potential to switch sides. Naruto has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Hinata, Sasuke has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Sakura, Hinata is one-dimensional and doesn’t see the world outside of Naruto, and Sakura has numerously behaved in ways towards Naruto that could easily be perceived as romantic (hence why her feelings are often subject to debate). *So far, the only two who are likely to reciprocate to one another are Naruto and Sakura.
> 
> *Oh, and yeah. Please put that retarded "girl who is a friend" trope to rest. I already took a big shit on that ridiculous argument some pages ago.*




Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you. Finally someone who put everything perfectly in words. That's the reality of it right there.

Sakura has admired Naruto in both ways; physically and emotionally throughout this series, indicating a shift in feelings for him. She admired his physical appearance during the beginning of part two as well as his growth in strength. Naruto has never done so for Hinata, or anyone else, even after seeing her for three years. Sasuke didn't even do so for Sasuke after he saw her during their reunion. 

You're right about Hinata being one-dimensional and that's because she's just a side character. Not only that, but her world and goals revolve around only Naruto, like a side character. Sakura, however, is destined to possibly become one of the next Three Sannin like Naruto and Sasuke and she strives to become stronger for herself. She is destined to surpass Tsunade and become an excellent medical shinobi. She strives to help out Naruto so that his dream to become Hokage may come true. Sakura, unlike Hinata, has exhibited characteristics of selfless care for Naruto's feelings, his goal, and how things affect him. Hinata has been depicted as selfish with her feelings (the confession is one) and her lack of interest in Naruto's goals and what he strives for. Hinata, on the other hand, has never expressed interest in Naruto's dream to become Hokage and her main objective is to only protect him and be by his side based on her own internal motives and love for him, whilst not even taking the time to know about his life and aspiratons. 

Kushina even did that for Minato, and there is a reason why Kishimoto has been placing only Sakura next to Minato during crucial moments and having only Sakura interact with Minato and not Hinata because he is trying to make clear that Kushina and Sakura are very much alike. Kishimoto also made it his business to even have them compared through Minato, himself. So, if that isn't a clue, I don't know.


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

Kage said:


> When Kishi does portray Naruto's feelings about Sakura in a "serious situation" it gets taken lightly anyway. Naruto has to do nothing short of sticking his tongue down her throat I think and even then he might be accused of being some creepy rapist or something. Look at the mental gymnastics required for something as straightforward as "girlfriend" and an answer in the affirmative... there is definitely some desperation going on here.
> 
> All the "girlfriend" scene does is imply Naruto still has the hots for Sakura which clearly doesn't sit well with any who believe he's just had a love life changing intimate moment with Hinata. I mean it's not like he couldn't get with Hinata despite, it just makes NH look bad. Which is to be expected no matter the pair really.


I think Naruto's romantic feelings were portrayed well in a serious note during the promise of a lifetime. I took that pretty seriously. I also took that Sai moment as serious. THis moment though...nah

Ummm...ew XD? Naruto sticking his tongue down anyone's throat feels kinda gross to me... 

It might make NH look that way if you take that moment seriously. It seems like it was written to be taken lightly, the reason people are looking deeply into it seems to be that NS really hasn't had any other moments to look into. Thats the desperation part I see. You could of course be completely right though sir (▰˘◡˘▰)(i think you're a sir...)


BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Intimate? Da Fuck? HAND HOLDING is now considered "Intimate" now?
> 
> Here I was thinking Intimacy was kissing, making love, and having a deep connection with your partner.
> 
> ...


Wasn't really thinking solely of the hand-holding, but thats a part of it. I think the most intimate moment was actually when Hinata's hand was on Naruto's face and they were staring into each others eyes. You do know intimate doesn't just mean sex and kissing, deep connection could very well be applied to them though. It means close..private...personal....thats exactly what the moment was. Along with the "In your eyes moment" both focused strongly on the two of them, and their understanding of each other. Thats what makes it intimate. 

I don't feel that way, lol It's canon that she has done more than scream Naruto-kun in her head for Naruto... She does say his name a lot though XD


Kakugo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess you're looking for a direct "I don't love Sakura" anymore from him. To me the fact that Naruto's feelings for Sakura haven't been shown in a serious light in forever, and that Kishimoto is having him develop only positively with a girl who loves him is what shows that Naruto's feelings have drastically changed. Showing not telling. However It's not enough for you and I get that. Naruto could still be spending his nights thinking about how much he loves and wants to be with Sakura.

and Naruto hasn't with Hinata? ...I just don't know how people could not at all put a romantic light on _at least_ the hand-holding... If I was Hinata...I'd take that at least slightly romantically... 
but Naruto's bad with girls, so maybe he really had no idea what kind of messages he could be sending 

Whaaaa...Sakura seems to be the one to be _least_ likely to change feelings. This girl is firm with her emotions! Kishimoto has made her hold onto her feelings for Sasuke for so long...through the worst obstacles...for her to drop them...I don't know O____o just seems so strange...
I don't see Kishimoto being able to write her feelings away in a believable way at this point, I think his best chance was right after Sasuke tried to kill her. Maybe Kishimoto has something good up his sleeve though. What do you think he might do? As of now it seems she still loves Sasuke...so will Sasuke do something super duper evil to top what he did before? Maybe if he killed Naruto? (wait...that wouldn't work) I don't know. In your mind how do you see the realization happening?

I agree with putting the argument to rest...it's been over-debated at this point. Is there nothing else to talk about?


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 12, 2014)

Just ignore Jizz, he has gotten rather clever with his usernames recently.

[sp]That account just remade a thread that was deleted by Kenneth for being a Jizz-thread[/sp]


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Just ignore Jizz, he has gotten rather clever with his usernames recently.
> 
> [sp]That account just remade a thread that was deleted by Kenneth for being a Jizz-thread[/sp]


 Ok then...


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## Kage (Feb 12, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I think Naruto's romantic feelings were portrayed well in a serious note during the promise of a lifetime. I took that pretty seriously. I also took that Sai moment as serious. THis moment though...nah


That's good, you would be one of few... This moment itself doesn't need to be put on that level but my point is the serious moments get treated like this one anyway, something to brush aside as inconsequential. 



> Ummm...ew XD? Naruto sticking his tongue down anyone's throat feels kinda gross to me...


Well it would make his romantic interests clear at least...I would hope.



> It might make NH look that way if you take that moment seriously. It seems like it was written to be taken lightly, the reason people are looking deeply into it seems to be that NS really hasn't had any other moments to look into. Thats the desperation part I see. You could of course be completely right though sir (▰˘◡˘▰)(i think you're a sir...)


Even still who jokes about another girl being your girlfriend when you're supposed to be on the verge (if not already there the way some tell it) of discovering your love for someone else? Not very cute. 

eeehhh it's desperate all around, some more than others. I could be, that would be nice. I'm simply _am_


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## Kurama (Feb 12, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Yet he will set up Naruto for failure?



You say this as though they are under equivalent circumstances.

Hinata has made an outright declaration of her intent to pursue Naruto. Naruto supposedly won't pursue Sakura so long as he can't keep the promise that he's already deemed irrelevant.

Hinata is absolutely certain in her success provided they survive the war. Naruto is absoluteky certain Sakura loves Sasuke.

Naruto acknowledges Hinata's affection and sacrifice with fondness and positive reception, and he expresses it to her directly. Sakura takes Sai's revelation of Naruto's "love" as a burden and negative reception.

Hinata is operating under the impression that Naruto is willing to see where they go. Naruto is not under any delusion that Sakura holds any genuine interest in him.

For Naruto to fail he needs to actually have intent to act, which he doesn't.


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## Biast (Feb 12, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Let's get real here. It really doesn't matter what kishi does to re-illustrate that Naruto loves Sakura and not Hinata, because the NH/SS supporters simply don't want to accept that reality. Be it comedic, serious, straight-forward, in-directly, *nothing* thus far has illustrated that Naruto no longer loves Sakura romantically. Despite how many times Naruto had convinced himself that Sakura doesn't love him in return, that hasn't stopped him from continuing to love her. If that hasn't stopped him yet, then I don't see what else would. Is it possible to change at some point? Sure, anything is possible. Is it likely though? Highly doubtful.
> 
> I've said it before, I'll say it again here: Unlike Naruto, Sasuke, OR Hinata, Sakura has been the *one character* to demonstrate enough internal conflict and potential to switch sides. Naruto has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Hinata, Sasuke has never demonstrated to have any romantic interest in Sakura, Hinata is one-dimensional and doesn’t see the world outside of Naruto, and Sakura has numerously behaved in ways towards Naruto that could easily be perceived as romantic (hence why her feelings are often subject to debate). So far, the only two who are likely to reciprocate to one another are Naruto and Sakura.
> 
> Oh, and yeah. Please put that retarded "girl who is a friend" trope to rest. I already took a big shit on that ridiculous argument some pages ago.



My problem with NaruSaku is that Sakura hasn't really showed him that she loves him... 

I will try to explain my points as clearly as possible. First we got the famous reunion in the beginning of Shippuden when Sakura admired Naruto's growth. In my opinion, that is a completely normal reaction when you see a dear friend for the first time in three years. I don't see the SasuNaru and SasuSaku shippers use the moment when both Naruto and Sakura were struck with awe when they saw Sasuke for the first time, back in Oro's lair. I don't see them bringing up the moment when Sakura complimented Sasuke's speed when he jump off the cliff to situate himself next to Naruto. Why? Because it was obvious, she hadn't seen him for so long, of course she would be impressed!

Next we got the hug after the fight with Pain. Again, completely normal reaction when your friend just saved the ENTIRE village including your parents, friends, teachers, etc. What did you expect her to do? Not acknowledge what he had just done? I honestly expected a mouth to mouth kiss that moment, and still in my eyes it wouldn't have been cannon, just because Naruto deserved it after his great feat of strength!

Now we go directly to the CPR panel.    This here is gold! People claiming Sakura was slipping Naruto tongue. For fuck sake! She was holding her friend's hearth in her hand, pumping chakra into him and when she saw him not responding, she used the only resource left to her (or to any medic nin in that situation) which is CPR. But noooo, she didn't used CPR because one of her best friends was dying and with him dead, Madara would DEFINITELY WIN THE WAR, she used CPR just to kiss him and prove the unconditional love she harbors towards him. 

Let me just say that I'm not dismissing the NaruSaku pairing at all because clearly Naruto has admitted that he has feelings towards Sakura. I just don't get all that, _''Sakura's actions have proved she cares for him, not only as a firend, but as a boyfriend/lover (whatever you wanna call it)''_ which in my opinion is completely false. 

Well as I feel I'm in the zone, I will go on to critice some other pairings as well. 

SasuSaku. In *part 1*, this is just like NaruSaku in my opinion, but the roles have changed (Sakura loves Sasuke, he doesn't feel the same way, just like Naruto loves Sakura and she doesn't feel the same way). As I already stated, Sakura, especially in the original manga, is completely devoted to Sasuke (even admitting it when he was about to leave the village) and Sasuke clearly doesn't feel the same, but still cares for her as a friend. Examples being when he thanked her before leaving or when his cursed seal reverted due to Sakura's hug in the Forest of Death. 
Keep in my mind that I said, *part 1*, just because Sasuke's care for her as a friend or even as a human being could be seriously questioned in *part 2* when he tried to killl her 3 times. 

Inb4 some SasuSaku argument talking about rage, vengeance, Sasuke being blinded by Obito, etc. 

^ Even if those were true, I still can't believe he tried to kill one of his friends. The only saving grace for the pairing in part 2 is when Sasuke used the Amaterasu for the first time, having Team 7 in his thoughts, which could be interpreted as if he still cares for them. And as Sakura is a part of team 7, he still cares about her. 

In conclusion, the only ''love'' moments that are shown in the manga are: Sakura's confession in part 1 to Sasuke, Hinata's confession in part 2 to Naruto and Naruto's confesion about his love towards Sakura in part 2 to Sai. 

This basically proves that the big 3 are all one sided and what did you expect, Kishi is bad at romance.

Naruto loves Sakura while she loves him only as a friend. Hinata loves Naruto while he loves her only as a friend. Sakura loves (used to love, it isn't really clear if she still does) Sasuke while he in part 1 cared for her like a friend, and in part 2, mostly didn't give a darn about her. 

Edit: Inb4 some NH argument complaining about how I analyzed SasuSaku and NaruSaku, but didn't analyze NaruHina. What's there to analyze? One sided as fuck, except the Pain fight, but that could easily be explained. She is one of his friends, one of the first people to actually believe in him, and she just got slapped the fuck out. It was completely normal for him to freak the fuck out and turn into the Kyubi. Basically the same justification used to explain why Sakura hugged Naruto or used CPR.

Edit 2: The red rep is strong with you guys! Keep negging, like I care.  

#sweg


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

Kurama said:


> You say this as though they are under equivalent circumstances.
> 
> Hinata has made an outright declaration of her intent to pursue Naruto. Naruto supposedly won't pursue Sakura so long as he can't keep the promise that he's already deemed irrelevant.
> 
> ...



It is the same situation.

I honestly dont know what manga you read. Naruto has NEVER once gave Hinara anything to think about in regards to a romantic relationship He acknowledges her friendship that is it. 

She did not take Naruto's "love" as a burden she took his promise he made to her as a burden. 

Nowhere is it shown that Hinata thinks she and Naruto  are going to be something after this. After she confessed her love to Naruto and he didnt respond, her actions have only shown to be less on the love side and more on the the friend side. Like when Shikamaru was dying she wanted to be by Naruto's side too and help just as Shikamaru not as a girlfriend but as a friend. 

(Change your sig and avatar, it hurts too much)


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

Kage said:


> That's good, you would be one of few... This moment itself doesn't need to be put on that level but my point is the serious moments get treated like this one anyway, something to brush aside as inconsequential.
> 
> 
> Well it would make his romantic interests clear at least...I would hope.
> ...


Oh well I feel wut you sayin homie  

I don't know. I think pairing fans will still fight, even if Naruto has a child with a girl. They'll be like..."Well he has the other girls eye type, so Naruto cheated! " As ridiculous as that seems...

XD Cause Kishimoto is known for making tasteless jokes.
Naruto is shown to be very dense...so...theres also that lol

Well theres not much romance in this series so I can get that.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be right :33? Coooool...I'm not a sir though...I'm a turtle...800x cooler than a sir


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Hinata has made an outright declaration of her intent to pursue Naruto. Naruto supposedly won't pursue Sakura so long as he can't keep the promise that *he's already deemed irrelevant*.



When it comes to Naruto's deep-rooted desire to pursue Sasuke based on his own merits, yes, it's irrelevant. When it comes to Naruto's feelings for Sakura alone, yes, the promise is relevant. What Naruto wants to do for himself is entirely different than what he wants to do for Sakura. Naruto made that promise to Sakura out of pure desire for her happiness, and that has nothing to do with his own personal pursuit of Sasuke. 




> Hinata is absolutely certain in her success provided they survive the war. Naruto is absoluteky certain Sakura loves Sasuke.




Hinata hasn't even thought of such a thing since the war even started, so I don't know where you get that it's been on her mind this entire time to be with Naruto after the war. Also, just because Naruto knows that she still has _wavering_ feelings for Sasuke, that doesn't stop him from loving her. He's loved her since part one, and he loved her even then. Hell, it was because of Naruto that Sakura had a new resolve and was able to be hopeful of team seven being together and laughing again, not because of Sasuke or anyone else.

What's stopping him now? On top of that, her so called love for Sasuke doesn't have a strong backbone right now to begin with. The entire Iron country arc was the epitome of Sakura's 'love' for Sasuke beginning to waver and change into something different. 




> Naruto *acknowledges Hinata's affection* and sacrifice with fondness and positive reception, and he expresses it to her directly. Sakura takes Sai's revelation of Naruto's "love" as a burden and negative reception.



No.

Naruto never acknowledged Hinata's love for him. He acknowledged her chivalry, but dismissed her love itself. He responded to her chivalry and strength with positive reception and admiration, not her love itself. 

As for Sakura's negative reception. No that's not it, at all. If anything, it implies that Sakura feels unworthy and is distressed at the idea the Naruto might love somebody like her. According to Sai, she is one of the reasons that Naruto is in so much supposed pain, and she questions why he would love somebody like her. It wasn't necessarily negative reception or a burden. 

If anything, it's implied that she feels she doesn't deserve to be loved by Naruto. 



> *Hinata is operating under the impression that Naruto is willing to see where they go. *Naruto is not under any delusion that Sakura holds any genuine interest in him.



Where is your proof of this? You're making it seem like Hinata is some love-struck teen whose only objective is to get her man during this war, no matter what. That's not what this is about. Hinata's main objective in this war is to protect Naruto and stand by his side. No where does it suggest that she is trying to make Naruto fall in love with her.  

This war isn't about which girl will get the main of her dreams. It's about protecting your comrades and the lot. You know, like what Sakura's doing now. The last thing on her mind is trying to make Naruto her boyfriend. She's trying to protect him and make sure he doesn't die at all costs, just like what Hinata is doing. However, you're mistaking what Hinata is doing as her "operating under the impression that Naruto will see where they are going". 




> For Naruto to fail he needs to actually have intent to act, which he doesn't.




Again, where is your proof? Apparently, the only thing stopping Naruto from telling Sakura how he feels is the fact that he couldn't bring Sasuke back. Well, Sasuke's back, so what's stopping him from telling her after the war? Also, these last couple of events leave a very high possibility that some development is in store for the two of them and something may happen between them after the war.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you. Finally someone who put everything perfectly in words. That's the reality of it right there.
> 
> Sakura has admired Naruto in both ways; physically and emotionally throughout this series, indicating a shift in feelings for him. She admired his physical appearance during the beginning of part two as well as his growth in strength. Naruto has never done so for Hinata, or anyone else, even after seeing her for three years. Sasuke didn't even do so for Sasuke after he saw her during their reunion.
> 
> ...


 Not to mention, Kushina's last words to her son before dying is to date someone like her (although some people are arguing that the actual translation says that she wants him to date someone NOT like her so I don't really know)

The narusaku relationship seems to be the one closest to the finish line (with both charcaters showing, implied or in-directly stated to have feelings for each other where as every other relationship has been purely one-sided)The only real thing thats keeping this relationship from being entirely canon is Sakura's lingering feelings for Sasuke (which is fine, there's nothing wrong with her, "the heart wants what the heart wants" though lately her thinking about him has always been nothing but making her feel sad or regretful like when the love fodder confronted her)


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

Not only that, but Sakura has not thought of Sasuke or been concerned for Sasuke's well-being since he showed up. The only one she has thought of and been concerned for is Naruto and it's clear evidence that whatever feels she may have for Naruto are way stronger than her wavering love for Sasuke. In the end, her stronger feelings for Naruto will outweigh the wavering love she has for Sasuke.


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## Njaa (Feb 12, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Even if that were the case (it isn't, but I'll humour you), how is that evidence of him having any sort of feelings for Hinata? Because that would be a pretty big fucking deal.  That scene was simply a confirmation of what we already knew (that Naruto still had romantic feelings for Sakura, both confirmed by himself and other characters multiple times throughout part 2) and now its turn into an argument of semantics and bullshit. There are _numerous_ legitimate arguments you can make against NS, this isn't one of them AT ALL. It was as blatant as you can get.



First thing, i never mention Hinata or NH in my post so not sure where that comes from. Secondly i already had a discussion about this with someone else and they never gave an answer besides some vague run around so perhaps you will. What exactly is Naruto referencing when he says he "shouldn't poke fun" of Sakura, since Kage provided some links a couple posts up showing that early part 2 scene similar (well pretty much the same) to 631. Back then Naruto was perving out with Konohamaru in front of Sakura which was pretty much what he referenced when he said he shouldn't joke in front of her the next chapter. So in 632 what was the "poking fun" that Naruto talked about??



Kage said:


> When Kishi does portray Naruto's feelings about Sakura in a "serious situation" it gets taken lightly anyway. Naruto has to do nothing short of sticking his tongue down her throat I think and even then he might be accused of being some creepy rapist or something. Look at the mental gymnastics required for something as straightforward as "girlfriend" and an answer in the affirmative... there is definitely some desperation going on here.



Well personally i see difference between the girlfriend thing since it's Naruto himself who kinda deflates it the next chapter. The are serious Naruto -> Sakura which showed he did like her, stuff like his awe of her medical prowess, the feeding scene, even if it ended up comically Naruto took that seriously, the Sai flashback as well. While there are serious Naruto -> Sakura moments i just don't think the girlfriend comment counts as one since it's Naruto himself that kinda brushes it off.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Not only that, but Sakura has not thought of Sasuke or been concerned for Sasuke's well-being since he showed up. The only one she has thought of and been concerned for is Naruto and it's clear evidence that whatever feels she may have for Naruto are way stronger than her wavering love for Sasuke. In the end, her stronger feelings for Naruto will outweigh the wavering love she has for Sasuke.



I _would _ agree except for that moment at the end of the chapter when Team 7 teams up once again, both Naruto and Sasuke saved her from a Juubi clone and she only thanked Sasuke (though it was intended as a humorous moment)


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> I _would _ agree except for that moment at the end of the chapter when Team 7 teams up once again, both Naruto and Sasuke saved her from a Juubi clone and she only thanked Sasuke (though it was intended as a humorous moment)



Please go reread that exact page, Sasuke arrives first. She was suprised Sasuke arrived there before that he had tried to kill her twice. Then she goes on to joke with both.


She doesnt even thank him.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

^ She didn't necessarily thank him, but she was certainly happy that he was there and that he saved her. I sort of look at that moment as an opening for Sakura to sort of see something positive about Sasuke again, and she was definitely delighted to see that he saved her. I wouldn't blame her because after hearing Sasuke's name being run through the mud so much and how everything he did negatively impacted her, I'm not surprised she reacted that way.

Still, this doesn't show that her feelings for Naruto aren't stronger though. In a way, it just shows that she's glad that he's back on their side and he's saved her. Naruto has always been there to save her, but since Sasuke had been gone for such a long time, it was a refreshing moment (for her at least). 

And, naturally, Naruto was jealous which is why he said, "Sakura-chan, I'm here too, you know". In a way, it was a classic team seven moment.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Please go reread that exact page, Sasuke arrives first. She was suprised Sasuke arrived there before that he had tried to kill her twice. Then she goes on to joke with both.
> 
> 
> She doesnt even thank him.



I did 

They both saved her, Sakura only mentions Sasuke and Naruto even points this out. I am also aware that this is supposed to be a reference to the team BOS where one of the running "jokes" was that she put Sauce on higher up on the pedestal than Nardo


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> I did
> 
> They both saved her, Sakura only mentions Sasuke and Naruto even points this out. I am also aware that this is supposed to be a reference to the team BOS where one of the running "jokes" was that she put Sauce on higher up on the pedestal than Nardo



Again like I said she doesnt even thank him, she says his name because  she is surprised he went there to save her.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd say it's more along the lines of she's happy that he is in the light and that she's happy that he's back on their side again. It's only logical that she's more grateful and happy with Sasuke saving her than Naruto because Sasuke was gone for a long time as well as attempting to kill them, herself included and his assistance in saving her is an indication that he's back on their side and he isn't trying to kill her anymore.

Doesn't show that Sasuke's on a bigger pedestal to Sakura, but it does show that she's relieved/happy that he's back and on their side again.

Not that that brief moment of joy from Sakura  matters because deep down, it is indicated that she really doesn't trust his motives/him.


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## Njaa (Feb 12, 2014)

^ Given that he went from promising to kill everyone in Konoha to saying he wants to become Hokage in the time span of a few weeks. Makes sense she's happy he's back but unsure of his intentions.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

Hope Kishi doesn't give make naruhina just for the fans I mean if he goes that route thats cool I just think it would be lame if he were to do it just because that's the most popular pairing the fans are throwing at him apparently.

Didn't he also imply in a recent interview (2011 or 2012 something like that) he said he keeps trying to write Sakura so she could be more popular but fans are still shouting for Hinata? something along those lines I think


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> Hope Kishi doesn't give make naruhina just for the fans I mean if he goes that route thats cool I just think it would be lame if he were to do it just because that's the most popular pairing the fans are throwing at him apparently.


That would be horrible o___o...
I hope Kishimoto picks the pairing that he thinks makes the most sense for the story he's writing.
I doubt he'd make a pairing happen just because of popularity though.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> Hope Kishi doesn't give make naruhina just for the fans I mean if he goes that route thats cool I just think it would be lame if he were to do it just because that's the most popular pairing the fans are throwing at him apparently.
> 
> Didn't he also imply in a recent interview (2011 or 2012 something like that) he said he keeps trying to write Sakura so she could be more popular but fans are still shouting for Hinata? something along those lines I think




Wow. That would be horrible. Kishimoto can't please everybody, so why should he worry about it? He should do what makes more sense for the story rather than fall under the pressure of what people want. 

If anything, I bet it's the western audience that's carrying on like this. In fact, Sakura has more positive reception in Japan, so it has to be the American fan base. On top of that, there is the unnecessary hatred that Sakura receives all of the time for trivial reasons. They say that she's weak, mean, flat-chested or whatever. What the heck was Hinata in part one then? She was weak as hell but people still loved her. Gaara was mean as all hell, yet people still loved him. Tenten and other females are also just as flat-chested as Sakura is, yet they don't get nearly as much hatred as Sakura does.

 I also want to point out that Sakura isn't nearly as flat-chested as the anime seems to depict her to be. Her scorch isn't as long as it is in the anime and she has some curves. In the anime, her scorch is knee-high whilst in the manga, it's mid-thigh or around that area. I think that it's the anime team's own personal bias against Sakura that makes them try to depict her as less attractive as possible. It gives the haters something to laugh about.


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## BiggsDarklighter (Feb 12, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Wow. That would be horrible. Kishimoto can't please everybody, so why should he worry about it? He should do what makes more sense for the story rather than fall under the pressure of what people want.
> 
> *If anything, I bet it's the western audience that's carrying on like this. In fact, Sakura has more positive reception in Japan, so it has to be the American fan base*.



STOP. Just STOP.  You know Naiki, even though I disagree sometimes with your POV, I always had nothing but respect with your ability as a debater. But I can't believe this is coming from you.


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

BiggsDarklighter said:


> STOP. Just STOP.  You know Naiki, even though I disagree sometimes with your POV, I always had nothing but respect with your ability as a debater. But I can't believe this is coming from you.



Its totally true. The Japanese fans like Sakura alot more and Naruhina is not very popular over there.


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## BiggsDarklighter (Feb 12, 2014)

Its true? On what grounds?


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## PAWS (Feb 12, 2014)

BiggsDarklighter said:


> Its true? On what grounds?



On the grounds that Japanese people understand Sakura's personality as a tsudere and just find it as comic relief unlike in the west where she gets ripped apart for it.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

BiggsDarklighter said:


> STOP. Just STOP.  You know Naiki, even though I disagree sometimes with your POV, I always had nothing but respect with your ability as a debater. But I can't believe this is coming from you.



Don't get mad at me. Go do the research. Sakura is not as hated in Japan like she is in the United States. Actually, NarSak is more promoted there than anything. You see Naruto and Sakura on subway cars there as well. NarHin is not as popular in Japan as NarSak.

Sorry to break it to you.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

I guess it all depends on whether or not Kishi decides to go with the most popular pairing (NH).

IMO it comes down to whether he cares about the shitstorm it would unleash if it doesn't happen. Who knows

I just hope someone actually gets together, there's so many hints and fanservice all around for each pairing it seems like Kishi is going to shoot himself in the foot by doing this because no matter what he's going to end up pissing people off (I think this is why most mangaka's keep their pairings mostly limited in their series)  so its whether or not he decides on the most popular pairing and gets little backlash or chooses the pairing that has the most hints in the series and get backlash from the two most popular pairing fanbases (NH and SS people)

I think someone said earlier that if Kishi was a real troll he would pull what his brother did and have nobody together at all  since that's not the focus of the story 



PAWS said:


> On the grounds that Japanese people understand Sakura's personality as a tsudere and just find it as comic relief unlike in the west where she gets ripped apart for it.



We do tend to have a shorter temper and patience....friend



Naiki said:


> Don't get mad at me. Go do the research. Sakura is not as hated in Japan like she is in the United States. *Actually, NarSak is more promoted there than anything.* You see Naruto and Sakura on subway cars there as well. NarHin is not as popular in Japan as NarSak.
> 
> Sorry to break it to you.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 12, 2014)

LesExit said:


> You could of course be completely right though sir (▰˘◡˘▰)(i think you're a sir...)



Kage is most definitely a sir .



Kurama said:


> Hinata has made an outright declaration of her intent to pursue Naruto. Naruto supposedly won't pursue Sakura so long as he can't keep the promise that he's already deemed irrelevant.



I don't believe you've answered me regarding what you think about Naruto's words to Sai and what they mean, this conversation won't work without that.



> Naruto acknowledges Hinata's affection and sacrifice with fondness and positive reception, and he expresses it to her directly. Sakura takes Sai's revelation of Naruto's "love" as a burden and negative reception.



He acknowledged her sacrifice, we didn't actually see him think about Hinata's romantic feelings.



> Hinata is operating under the impression that Naruto is willing to see where they go. Naruto is not under any delusion that Sakura holds any genuine interest in him.



Just because Hinata is delusional doesn't mean your pairing is more likely. Let's not forget the ~150 chapter break between Hinata's sacrifice and Naruto's giving a fuck .

For Naruto to fail he needs to actually have intent to act, which he doesn't.[/QUOTE]



Biast said:


> My problem with NaruSaku is that Sakura hasn't really showed him that she loves him...
> 
> I will try to explain my points as clearly as possible. First we got the famous reunion in the beginning of Shippuden when Sakura admired Naruto's growth. In my opinion, that is a completely normal reaction when you see a dear friend for the first time in three years. I don't see the SasuNaru and SasuSaku shippers use the moment when both Naruto and Sakura were struck with awe when they saw Sasuke for the first time, back in Oro's lair. I don't see them bringing up the moment when Sakura complimented Sasuke's speed when he jump off the cliff to situate himself next to Naruto. Why? Because it was obvious, she hadn't seen him for so long, of course she would be impressed!



I think it should be obvious to everyone that Sakura loves Naruto, just not romantically yet. Conversely neither Sasuke nor Naruto have that level of bond for Sakura/Hinata (unless of course you're a rabid SS shipper who thinks Sasuke does in fact love Sakura).

That's because Sasuke tries to kill Team 7 shortly after their reunion, that kinda marrs the whole thing .



> Next we got the hug after the fight with Pain. Again, completely normal reaction when your friend just saved the ENTIRE village including your parents, friends, teachers, etc. What did you expect her to do? Not acknowledge what he had just done?



/Shrug, that's fine, however it means pretty much any physical act that is not 'more than' a hug is going to be viewed in a very critical light when trying to claim it's romantic (hint; hand holding).



> Now we go directly to the CPR panel.    This here is gold! People claiming Sakura was slipping Naruto tongue. For fuck sake!



Now now, every pairing has people like this.



> She was holding her friend's hearth in her hand, pumping chakra into him and when she saw him not responding, she used the only resource left to her (or to any medic nin in that situation) which is CPR. But noooo, she didn't used CPR because one of her best friends was dying and with him dead, Madara would DEFINITELY WIN THE WAR, she used CPR just to kiss him and prove the unconditional love she harbors towards him.



I believe multiple people, including myself, have covered why NS fans like the chapter and this doesn't address any of that.



> Let me just say that I'm not dismissing the NaruSaku pairing at all because clearly Naruto has admitted that he has feelings towards Sakura. I just don't get all that, _''Sakura's actions have proved she cares for him, not only as a firend, but as a boyfriend/lover (whatever you wanna call it)''_ which in my opinion is completely false.



Well yes because if that were true then the romantic subplot would be pretty much wrapped up so it's obviously not. NS fans are capitalizing on the recent negatives of Sakura->Sasuke and the strength of the NS bond as well as moments that could _possibly_ indicate Sakura feels something more for Naruto.



> ^ Even if those were true, I still can't believe he tried to kill one of his friends. The only saving grace for the pairing in part 2 is when Sasuke used the Amaterasu for the first time, having Team 7 in his thoughts, which could be interpreted as if he still cares for them. And as Sakura is a part of team 7, he still cares about her.



So Sasuke still cares for Team 7 and then knowingly tries to murder each of them ~3 times? Damn, I would not be wanting to claim that.



> In conclusion, the only ''love'' moments that are shown in the manga are: Sakura's confession in part 1 to Sasuke, Hinata's confession in part 2 to Naruto and Naruto's confesion about his love towards Sakura in part 2 to Sai.



There are quite a few moments explicitly concerning the romantic subplot that you are forgetting.



> This basically proves that the big 3 are all one sided and what did you expect, Kishi is bad at romance.



*Originally I wanted to reply to something in your post that I thought was AB3 in end game, I can't seem to find it so I'll just do it here.

I accept that the big 3 are all currently one sided, the issue is whether they will stay that way. Now if you operate under the assumption that at least one pairing will be made canon (it's a big assumption but I believe there's enough evidence to justify it). The problem then becomes 'which pairing will be the one to be canon'. So when arguing in the thread under that assumption, all I have to do is prove that NS is more likely than either NH, SS or NH/SS.



LesExit said:


> I don't know. I think pairing fans will still fight, even if Naruto has a child with a girl. They'll be like..."Well he has the other girls eye type, so Naruto cheated! " As ridiculous as that seems...



With these types of things there's usually a mass abandonment of canon.



Njaa said:


> What exactly is Naruto referencing when he says he "shouldn't poke fun" of Sakura, since Kage provided some links a couple posts up showing that early part 2 scene similar (well pretty much the same) to 631. Back then Naruto was perving out with Konohamaru in front of Sakura which was pretty much what he referenced when he said he shouldn't joke in front of her the next chapter. So in 632 what was the "poking fun" that Naruto talked about??



When I read it I assumed it was in general, however you can tell that Naruto knew Sakura wouldn't be happy if he claimed she was his girlfriend to Minato . 



> Well personally i see difference between the girlfriend thing since it's Naruto himself who kinda deflates it the next chapter.



That's not what you should be getting out of those chapters and I don't even really know how you're getting that.



> The are serious Naruto -> Sakura which showed he did like her, stuff like his awe of her medical prowess, the feeding scene, even if it ended up comically Naruto took that seriously, the Sai flashback as well. While there are serious Naruto -> Sakura moments i just don't think the girlfriend comment counts as one since it's Naruto himself that kinda brushes it off.



As Kage said before; mostly because there are serious Naruto->Sakura scenes in part 2, the joking ones serve to retain the status quo (being that Naruto loves Sakura). Again, as she said before; that joke/scene doesn't fit with a Naruto who was chaging from Sakura to Hinata (and that's why NH fans are fighting the interpretation so hard).


Anyway~, what's the go with parallels in this new thread? I had a skim over the first posts and they didn't mention it at all. NS has had a few in-universe mentions of being similar to MinaKushi and I see people disagreeing with it outside of this place and was wondering if I could address it in here.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

I agree with PAWS on this one. Japanese people understand Sakura's character and her role as a Tsundere. Americans don't. Even though I'm American, I've watched anime long enough to understand that you can't take Sakura's aggressive behavior literally like that because it is actually a usual characteristic for the romantic love interests of the protagonist.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 12, 2014)

BiggsDarklighter said:


> Its true? On what grounds?



The fact that on just about every poll (although a few she goes down a notch) she's the top rated heroine in the manga by a landslide?


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

In a way, I really wouldn't mind if nobody got together. It would shut everybody up, really. I'd just have to imagine Naruto and Sakura getting together and having family in my head. *- * 

Pink-haired, blue-eyed babies and Blond-haired, green-eyed babies. They would make some gorgeous children.

I should write a fanfiction of that one day.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

Kishi's been implying throughout the entire manga (or atleast in Part 2) both established by actual characters and in his databooks (not the same thing but whatever) that Sakura does have feelings for Naruto she just isn't aware of it, so technically this is the only pairing in the big 3 that's pretty much confirmed to not be one-sided at-least not entirely.


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## Rinoa (Feb 12, 2014)

Too much off topic floating around in here...

If you want to know about Kishi's interviews and their exactly words there's a section with them, if you want to discuss popularities, i believe there are also threads even if filed with this type of information.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

Rinoa said:


> Too much off topic floating around in here...
> 
> If you want to know about Kishi's interviews and their exactly words there's a section with them, if you want to discuss popularities, i believe there are also threads even if filed with this type of information.



I was just using Kishi's interviews as a reference, all I said when it comes to popularity was whether or not its going to affect if Kishi changes any relationships. So all of it technically _is_ relevant 

But if it bothers you I'll stop.


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

Rinoa said:


> Too much off topic floating around in here...
> 
> If you want to know about Kishi's interviews and their exactly words there's a section with them, if you want to discuss popularities, i believe there are also threads even if filed with this type of information.




Yes Ma'am!


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> Kishi's been implying throughout the entire manga (or atleast in Part 2) both established by actual characters and in his databooks (not the same thing but whatever) that Sakura does have feelings for Naruto she just isn't aware of it, so technically this is the only pairing in the big 3 that's pretty much confirmed to not be one-sided at-least not entirely.



To be fair even though I ship NS, you have to use manga evidence, not Databooks. That argument doesn't hold weight. 

:x


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## Tom Servo (Feb 12, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> To be fair even though I ship NS, you have to use manga evidence, not Databooks. That argument doesn't hold weight.
> 
> :x



hence why I said "not the same thing but whatever" I do think Kishi's editors' words (or whoever writes them) _do_ hold some weight, they work on the manga with him after all (though they are second tier)

But I know we don't really count them hence the quote, still doesn't change all the "subtle" hints given whether its by characters, or re-used character designs and reaction shots kubo style


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## Rinoa (Feb 12, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> I was just using Kishi's interviews as a reference, all I said when it comes to popularity was whether or not its going to affect if Kishi changes any relationships. So all of it technically _is_ relevant
> 
> But if it bothers you I'll stop.


Normally after that will lead to someone to come with another mention of another interview, another indication of another popularity ... not particularly bother me if it's not dragged or leads to another type of debate and derail the thread.

It's best kept for brief.



Such posts also please guys avoid:


> Originally Posted by *legend of kyubi12*
> 
> I heard about that event. It was taken out of context by the fan. Do not know Which, though it's Suggested is a NaruSaku shipper because They stated que Kishimoto was annoyed and mad at NaruHina fans are continuously calling for Hinata. This was later proven to be biased.



Not contribute to the debate in question and are just rumors which address fandoms.




Naiki said:


> Yes Ma'am!


Hey you.:33


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## Naiki (Feb 12, 2014)

Rinoa said:


> Hey you.:33




 How are you on this fine evening?


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## LesExit (Feb 12, 2014)

Naiki said:


> In a way, I really wouldn't mind if nobody got together. It would shut everybody up, really. I'd just have to imagine Naruto and Sakura getting together and having family in my head. *- *
> 
> Pink-haired, blue-eyed babies and Blond-haired, green-eyed babies. They would make some gorgeous children.
> 
> I should write a fanfiction of that one day.


Well regardless of what pairing is canon you can still do that :33 I hope pairing fans still do if they love their pairing. Regardless of what happens in the manga, we'll all have a pairing that feels the best to us and I don't think anyone has the right to take that away from us.




Sakura feeling question thing? 
So I don't get how Sakura could _still_ not be aware of any feelings for Naruto at this point. In her confession she listed all the reasons as to why she should love Naruto, which should show that if Sakura's was going to fall in love with Naruto at some point, she should've already. Though that confession was....well you know..., and later Sakura thinks of Sasuke as the guy she has feelings for. So it seems Sakura still doesn't love Naruto and if not...what's going to bring on her realization for her true love towards Naruto? It'd have to be for a different reason then the ones listed under her confession. Maybe Naruto's death, making her realize how much she cares? ...but she already cares a ton about him, and there was no romantic realization last chapter from her. So...I just don't get when this realization is supposed to happen. Maybe Sakura is secretly harboring her romantic feelings for Naruto for some unknown reason? I don't know why she'd be afraid of letting them out, she was apparently aware Naruto liked her and Naruto's a great guy compared to Sasuke so the idea of her keeping that from him seems strange...

However if she _doesn't_ and is still incredibly foggy about how she feels for Naruto, what do you think would bring on the realization at this point? The whole idea is one of my main obstacles with the NS pairing at this point in the manga. So give me your thoughts children (even though I'm probably the youngest >u>)...


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## Rinoa (Feb 13, 2014)

Naiki said:


> How are you on this fine evening?




*Spoiler*: _OT_ 



Sick of the rain falling where i live. :/
Naiki now you made me go OT over here ahah i need to take myself to vms.




Keep debating about pairings ... Valentine's day is nearing the door.

failed miserably in trying to keep the topic~ out


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## Risyth (Feb 13, 2014)

I swear, you're reich-modding every time I see you, Rinoa.


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## Naiki (Feb 13, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Sakura feeling question thing?
> *So I don't get how Sakura could still not be aware of any feelings for Naruto at this point.* In her confession she listed all the reasons as to why she should love Naruto, which should show that if Sakura's was going to fall in love with Naruto at some point, she should've already. Though that confession was....well you know..., and later Sakura thinks of Sasuke as the guy she has feelings for. So it seems Sakura still doesn't love Naruto and if not...what's going to bring on her realization for her true love towards Naruto? It'd have to be for a different reason then the ones listed under her confession. Maybe Naruto's death, making her realize how much she cares? ...but she already cares a ton about him, and there was no romantic realization last chapter from her. So...I just don't get when this realization is supposed to happen. Maybe Sakura is secretly harboring her romantic feelings for Naruto for some unknown reason? I don't know why she'd be afraid of letting them out, she was apparently aware Naruto liked her and Naruto's a great guy compared to Sasuke so the idea of her keeping that from him seems strange...
> 
> However if she _doesn't_ and is still incredibly foggy about how she feels for Naruto, what do you think would bring on the realization at this point? The whole idea is one of my main obstacles with the NS pairing at this point in the manga. So give me your thoughts children (even though I'm probably the youngest >u>)...




For all we know, Sakura could already be in love with Naruto, but she just doesn't understand her feelings at the moment. In her mind, she still _thinks_ that she loves Sasuke, but her feelings for Naruto could be stronger in her heart. 

The love-letter altercation is a rather vague example of this concept. When the subject is brought up of her being in love with an amazing guy, she automatically thinks of Sasuke because she still thinks that she loves him, obviously. On the contrary, it is Naruto that she has shown the most concern for throughout this war and she hasn't even had a thought of Sasuke since he showed up. It is Naruto that makes her feel safe and comfortable. It is Naruto that she finds to be this amazing shinobi that has matured before her very eyes. 

Now, what does she think of Sasuke? That's right, he isn't that much of an amazing guy and she mentally still loves him, despite not possibly feeling it inside of her heart. 

That, in itself, shows that in Sakura's mind, she still loves Sasuke, but her heart could be feeling something different. She has yet to follow her heart and that is what I think might end up happening. 

I think the "epiphany" will come in where Sakura is faced with a situation where she has to decide for herself who matters to her the most and who makes her feel good and comfortable. In the end, it will be Naruto. Her realization of how much Naruto means to her and ultimately her realization that these feelings she hold are what true love is can be carried out by Naruto's death or something tragic happening to him.

We've seen this happen before when he turned four-tails and it can definitely happen again. This explains why Yamato was able to pick up on her feelings for him through her concern and the desire to be useful to him.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 13, 2014)

OK this shit is painful;

You're not supposed to bring up interviews (even sourced ones) in this thread.
That statement from the interview isn't true.
NS doesn't need interviews (valid or invalid) to have strong arguments and using interviews generally makes our arguments appear weaker.



Naiki said:


> With Sasuke, she hasn't and I doubt she can come up with anything at this point. This may lead to her ultimately falling out of love with him in the future because, remember, she isn't the part one Sakura anymore. Sakura is maturing as well.



I much prefer this side of your argument .


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## Rinoa (Feb 13, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> OK this shit is painful;
> 
> You're not supposed to bring up interviews (even sourced ones) in this thread.
> That statement from the interview isn't true.


What Mr Horrible says.

I have mentioned to leave aside the interviews and that kind of speculations and speculate, discuss based on the manga and the arguments according to this source. :3


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## Naiki (Feb 13, 2014)

^ So, I apologize for that. I was going off of what someone else was saying, so people please omit that from what I previously posted! 

The thing about NS is that we don't need interviews and data-books because the evidence is in the manga itself. 

Silly of me to even place that in my argument.

EDIT: Also, Rinoa, I'm going to send you a message. I have a request for you. :3


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## Njaa (Feb 13, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Naiki said:


> For all we know, Sakura could already be in love with Naruto, but she just doesn't understand her feelings at the moment. In her mind, she still _thinks_ that she loves Sasuke, but her feelings for Naruto could be stronger in her heart.
> 
> The love-letter altercation is a rather vague example of this concept. When the subject is brought up of her being in love with an amazing guy, she automatically thinks of Sasuke because she still thinks that she loves him, obviously. On the contrary, it is Naruto that she has shown the most concern for throughout this war and she hasn't even had a thought of Sasuke since he showed up. It is Naruto that makes her feel safe and comfortable. It is Naruto that she finds to be this amazing shinobi that has matured before her very eyes.
> 
> ...







That kinda already happened though, during her fake confession she listed all the reason she _should_ choose Naruto over Sasuke but that didn't change her love for Sasuke. She knows all of Naruto's good points yet love letter nin clearly showed Sasuke and Sasuke alone, even if it was filled with irony "he must be a *great* guy".


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## LesExit (Feb 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> That kinda already happened though, during her fake confession she listed all the reason she _should_ choose Naruto over Sasuke but that didn't change her love for Sasuke. She knows all of Naruto's good points yet love letter nin clearly showed Sasuke and Sasuke alone, even if it was filled with irony "he must be a *great* guy".


Thats the way I see it...



Naiki said:


> Now, what does she think of Sasuke? That's right, he isn't that much of an amazing guy and she mentally still loves him, despite not possibly feeling it inside of her heart.
> 
> That, in itself, shows that in Sakura's mind, she still loves Sasuke, but her heart could be feeling something different. She has yet to follow her heart and that is what I think might end up happening.


I'd say the opposite is actually true. That in Sakura's heart she loves Sasuke, but mentally she knows he's made a lot of evil choices and that he's not a great guy, like we're shown she fully understands during the love-letter moment. It's Sakura's mind that told her to kill Sasuke but it's the love for him in her heart that didn't allow her to stab him. 

I think Sakura's confession displays that she knows mentally there are good reasons as to why she should love Naruto. He's the one who's been there for her while Sasuke has been gone, Naruto has been the one to help her, and the one she can touch(just insert all the reasons she gives in her confession)...but as far as truly loving Naruto in her heart...she doesn't. I think thats why Naruto told her, he hates people who lie to themselves, because they both know where her heart truly lies.

I think Sakura already knows just how much Naruto means to her, and who makes her feel the best and the most comfortable (Later Part I and Part II has showed her realizing this) and how Sasuke causes her pain...but that hasn't seemed to be enough for her to shift her feelings yet. Maybe I'm missing something though, and a moment like you said will happen.


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## Naiki (Feb 13, 2014)

Njaa said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Answer this question for me. 

What exactly makes her confession as a whole fake? Was it fake when Sakura was expressing her admiration and adoration for Naruto with a purely genuine expression on her face? You have to admit that was pure truthfulness. If anything, the falsity about the confession was when she was attempting to convince Naruto of her blank feelings for Sasuke which was obviously a lie because she was basically crying over the guy several chapters before. Was it because Naruto said it? That's a weak argument because Naruto is highly dense when it comes to romance and deciphering a woman's feelings anyway. Naruto has always believed that Sasuke was the one for Sakura, so that's automatic. 

Second, her love for Sasuke _has_ been wavering since the confession if you take notice.  She was willing to give up her search for Sasuke mainly for Naruto's sake. If anything, this suggests that her feelings for Naruto is stronger than her love for Sasuke. This is one example of how weak and brittle her love for Sasuke has gotten.

Third, that incident with the love letter nin is nothing but reality slapping Sakura in the face. It's a wake up call telling her that the man she supposedly loves is not a wonderful person and it placed her in a depressed mode. This scene contrasts well with the confession where she states what an amazing person Naruto is as well as how he always comes when he is needed and he comforts her. While in the love letter incident, she is clearly uncomfortable with the idea of loving someone like Sasuke. 

If anything, the above scene is Anti-SS than anything. It also opens the doors for Sakura to begin the process of overcoming this unhealthy love that she feels for the Uchiha and it also opens the doors for her to begin reciprocating whatever feelings she may have for Naruto. Naruto's charisma certainly hasn't stopped Sakura from seeing Naruto in a more positive light from chapter three, and it certainly can't stop her from falling in love with him. As a matter of fact, I think she has already been in the process of that for a very long time now. 

It's just that it is in Sakura's head that she loves Sasuke, but her heart could be feeling something different. She thinks she loves Sasuke, but her emotions and heart is telling her something different. If you'll notice, throughout this war, she has not thought of Sasuke even once since he showed up.

The only person she has thought of and been concerned for is Naruto himself. That should tell you where things are rapidly heading. I'm sure that if it were to be reiterated that Sakura's love for Sasuke was so strong then she would clearly be thinking of him and wondering if he is alright throughout this war as well, but she's not. If her love were so unwavering, she would have self-assurance in him and be absolutely certain in whatever he has planned or his agenda. She would stand behind her man no matter what he does.

That is what a woman with unwavering love for her man would do. Is Sakura doing that? Nope.

So much for her unwavering love.


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## Njaa (Feb 13, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Answer this question for me.
> 
> What exactly makes her confession as a whole fake? Was it fake when Sakura was expressing her admiration and adoration for Naruto with a purely genuine expression on her face? You have to admit that was pure truthfulness. If anything, the falsity about the confession was when she was attempting to convince Naruto of her blank feelings for Sasuke which was obviously a lie because she was basically crying over the guy several chapters before. Was it because Naruto said it? That's a weak argument because Naruto is highly dense when it comes to romance and deciphering a woman's feelings anyway. Naruto has always believed that Sasuke was the one for Sakura, so that's automatic.



It's fake when she mentioned she simply switched from Sasuke to Naruto, all those nice things she said about Naruto and the bad things about Sasuke, while true, didn't change who she loves romantically. Throughout iron country Sakura was approaching things from a logical PoV, Naruto = good Sasuke = bad yet when it came down to it to do the deed and kill Sasuke for the greater good, she couldn't bring herself to do it. In a way her "heart" got in the way of her "mind".



> Second, her love for Sasuke _has_ been wavering since the confession if you take notice.  She was willing to give up her search for Sasuke mainly for Naruto's sake. If anything, this suggests that her feelings for Naruto is stronger than her love for Sasuke. This is one example of how weak and brittle her love for Sasuke has gotten.



Her giving up was mainly due to her perceived burden she placed on Naruto through the PoaL and trying to relieve him if it, without realizing Naruto's desire to bring Sasuke back ran deeper than the PoaL.



> Third, that incident with the love letter nin is nothing but reality slapping Sakura in the face. It's a wake up call telling her that the man she supposedly loves is not a wonderful person and it placed her in a depressed mode. This scene contrasts well with the confession where she states what an amazing person Naruto is as well as how he always comes when he is needed and he comforts her. While in the love letter incident, she is clearly uncomfortable with the idea of loving someone like Sasuke.



It doesn't matter how much of a nice guy Naruto is as it didn't change her mind. As to being depressed well she isn't delusional to think Sasuke is this awesome guy yet when the letter nin mention the "he must be a great guy" it was Sasuke and Sasuke alone that entered her thoughts.



> If anything, the above scene is Anti-SS than anything. It also opens the doors for Sakura to begin the process of overcoming this unhealthy love that she feels for the Uchiha and it also opens the doors for her to begin reciprocating whatever feelings she may have for Naruto. Naruto's charisma certainly hasn't stopped Sakura from seeing Naruto in a more positive light from chapter three, and it certainly can't stop her from falling in love with him. As a matter of fact, I think she has already been in the process of that for a very long time now.



Even if she gets over Sasuke that doesn't automatically mean she'll jump to Naruto. Being a nice guy isn't enough.



> It's just that it is in Sakura's head that she loves Sasuke, but her heart could be feeling something different. She thinks she loves Sasuke, but her emotions and heart is telling her something different. If you'll notice, throughout this war, she has not thought of Sasuke even once since he showed up.



Like LesExit said, she knew Sasuke was doing bad things and killing him would stop him from doing more harm, but when it came to it it was her heart that stopped her from killing him. She has thought about Sasuke's intentions when Sai brought them up, she's unsure what he's up to.



> The only person she has thought of and been concerned for is Naruto himself. That should tell you where things are rapidly heading. I'm sure that if it were to be reiterated that Sakura's love for Sasuke was so strong then she would clearly be thinking of him and wondering if he is alright throughout this war as well, but she's not. If her love were so unwavering, she would have self-assurance in him and be absolutely certain in whatever he has planned or his agenda. She would stand behind her man no matter what he does.
> 
> That is what a woman with unwavering love for her man would do. Is Sakura doing that? Nope.
> 
> So much for her unwavering love.



You're equating love with blindly following someone and that has never been portrayed in the manga. Sakura still loves Sasuke but she won't blindly follow him, iron country showed that. Hell even Mr. optimism guy Naruto knew he would die with Sasuke if they fought.


Man that was a lot of quoting and typing


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## Tom Servo (Feb 13, 2014)

There's nothing that makes the confession itself fake, what Naruto noticed and got suspicious about was the fact that she was using it to get him to quit his promise.

Using her love as an excuse is what got him suspicious. Besides I don't think she would say she loves him and asks him to go back to the village with him if she wasn't ok with the fact that she was going to spend alot more time with him.

Its not what she says that's the lie but what she says it for.


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## Kurama (Feb 13, 2014)

Yall need to just stop clinging to any hope that her confession was genuine, seriously. Her points about Naruto being good was true, but she proves its not enough because she hinges it on the idea that she can't love a rogue ninja like Sasuke anymore....yet in the end she still loves him. When approached by the love letter nin and forced to think of the "someone else" it is Sasuke alone who appears. Sakura has already operated off of the idea that Naruto loved her and reacted with guilt, treating it as a burden. There is no romantic feelings, conscious or subconscious, from Sakura to Naruto. What has grown is platonic friendship and care, this is what is certain, black and white in the panels. No clinging to parallels is going to change that.


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## PAWS (Feb 13, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Yall need to just stop clinging to any hope that her confession was genuine, seriously. Her points about Naruto being good was true, but she proves its not enough because she hinges it on the idea that she can't love a rogue ninja like Sasuke anymore....yet in the end she still loves him. When approached by the love letter nin and forced to think of the "someone else" it is Sasuke alone who appears. Sakura has already operated off of the idea that Naruto loved her and reacted with guilt, treating it as a burden. There is no romantic feelings, conscious or subconscious, from Sakura to Naruto. What has grown is platonic friendship and care, this is what is certain, black and white in the panels. No clinging to parallels is going to change that.



Then explain to me why she was so mad when Naruto dismissed it as nothing much?

Sure what she thought she was saying was a lie but deep inside she doesnt even know what she feels for Naruto, she thinks she loves Sasuke but subconsciously her love for Naruto is there, she just does not know it.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 13, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Then explain to me why she was so mad when Naruto dismissed it as nothing much?
> 
> Sure what she thought she was saying was a lie but deep inside she doesnt even know what she feels for Naruto, she thinks she loves Sasuke but subconsciously her love for Naruto is there, she just does not know it.




Ok, for one it has been shown how she feels about Naruto. She cares deeply for him, yes, does she love Naruto, yes, is she _in love with Naruto romantically_ no. Second she was angry because the event didn't turn out how she hoped it would, Naruto coming back to Konoha and forgetting about chasing Sasuke. 

Despite everything he's done, no matter how bad or evil, Sakura's been shown to in love with Sasuke, not Naruto. She's close to Naruto but she doesn't see him in that light. The love letter scene proved that Sakura was still in love with him, however, with everything that happened because of Sasuke, the war, his horrible actions, she's sad and worried. 

She's theses things because she knows that despite being in love with him they may still have no choice but to kill him if things continue as they are, despite Naruto giving her hope that Team 7 can still have a happy ending.Sakura can't do it herself, her original attempt proves that. Kinda figured that she wouldn't be able to when I say how emotionally shattered she was when the other Rookies announced their intent to kill Sasuke to avoid war, Sakura hasn't shown that level of intense emotion for Naruto. Sure she's been shown to greatly worry about him, but the level of intensity shown for Sasuke is much greater. 

When Sakura was doing the fake confession everyone, including Naruto knew she was lying about her true feelings, you guys don't give Naruto enough credit. 

Sakura had good intentions, but ultimately the plan she had backfired on her. Hell her confession angered a few people, Yamato "who people said that he knows Sakura's in love with Naruto with the words being said, this scene hear can be used to contradict that, Kakashi "who's known Naruto and Sakura for the longest time, and Kiba "who knew it was pure B.S. because they knew it wasn't true and because it was also insulting to think Naruto would fall for such a thing.


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## LesExit (Feb 13, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> There's nothing that makes the confession itself fake, what Naruto noticed and got suspicious about was the fact that she was using it to get him to quit his promise.
> 
> Using her love as an excuse is what got him suspicious. Besides I don't think she would say she loves him and asks him to go back to the village with him if she wasn't ok with the fact that she was going to spend alot more time with him.
> 
> Its not what she says that's the lie but what she says it for.


If she was planning on actually going back to the village and being his girlfriend, I'd loose so much respect for her. It's like she'd just be trying to distract Naruto from what was going on around him D: 

I don't really know how to argue about which part she was lying about, I just disagree. To me it seemed pretty obvious Naruto's was speaking directly to her saying, she switched from Sasuke to Naruto, which is why Naruto had all the flashbacks to Sakura's moments with Sasuke. I didn't think there was any part of Naruto that believed Sakura loved him like Sasuke.(also no one else around them who saw what Sakura was doing) The entire confession was forced...and just awkward in every way...  


PAWS said:


> Then explain to me why she was so mad when Naruto dismissed it as nothing much?
> 
> Sure what she thought she was saying was a lie but deep inside she doesnt even know what she feels for Naruto, she thinks she loves Sasuke but subconsciously her love for Naruto is there, she just does not know it.


I think she explains why in the panels where she's extremely mad. She's tired of Naruto working so hard and putting himself in dangerous situations for Sasuke. She feels bad, because she thinks that he's doing it all for her(because Sai) and so she's guilty D: She's not mad because he didn't return her "I love you". She's mad because her confession didn't convince Naruto to stop chasing after Sasuke, so she could take the burden off Naruto's shoulders and handle it herself. Then she finds out that that promise didn't really matter, and that Naruto was going to take on that burden no matter what she did....and she's probably thinking of strangling Sai in her head XD

I still have no idea how she couldn't know. I have no idea what could be the mental obstacle for Sakura to not know her feelings. It's not like Sakura's ever been shy around him, she's not romantically committed the Sasuke, she's brought up all the reasons to love him...and still doesn't realize her romantic feelings?? The only reason that I can think of is, well she's just confused because...she is. There seems like more than enough in place for Sakura to return romantic feelings now if she has them. Doesn't make sense to me....if that's actually what Kishimoto is trying to portray though I'd accept it I guess O__o?


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## Naiki (Feb 13, 2014)

I think the reason Sakura was mad was because Naruto was denying her feelings for him, not the fact that he wasn't going back to Konoha. She even got in his face and shouted at him for taking her lightly. She was clearly upset about that.

If she were lying, I'm sure she wouldn't have reacted that way and went straight to what her true objective was. As Sai said, she didn't come there to confess her love. She came there to tell Naruto to come back to the village and also the truth about Sasuke. In a way, her love confession was entirely unnecessary and she got pissed when her feelings were rejected.

If her love confession was a part of a ploy or something devious, then she wouldn't have reacted that way and settled for plan B. I think she genuinely threw that love confession in because she was reaching out to Naruto romantically in light of finding out that he loved her and it was obviously positive reception from her end given that she was willing to reach out to him with her own feelings based upon the fact that he was an amazing person who comforted her and made her feel safe. 

Sai also states that Sakura knew that Naruto would react that way about  not giving up on Sasuke, which is why she resolved to killing Sasuke  herself. Right from the get go, she could've just told Naruto that she wanted him to come back to the village, but she chose to confess her feelings for him (which actually hit close to home). What she didn't expect was for Naruto to reject her feelings,  and you could see that she was visibly hurt by it and upset to the point  where she got in his face. 

  (hurt/almost offended expression)

  (her retaliation against him)

  (it is here where she states her main objective for coming there, which backs up my point of her making a love confession to Naruto while denouncing her love for Sasuke as unnecessary. Her deciding to give a close to home love confession is telling because upon learning that Naruto loves her, she was willing to reciprocate his feelings and return to Konoha with him as possibly his girlfriend. I don't buy into the whole 'she was manipulating him' schtick because Sakura isn't that devious of a character. It would be out of character for her to do so and she really cares about how Naruto feels as a person.

The last thing she would do would manipulate or hurt him in that way. One thing for certain is that she lied about loving Sasuke because she felt bad about the burden she felt she placed on him and the pain she placed on him. Because, remember, it was out of her love for Sasuke that Naruto made the PoaL in the first place and by declaring that she no longer loved Sasuke, she was hoping for Naruto to give up on that PoaL.) She could've just left it at not loving Sasuke anymore and stating that she wanted Naruto to come back to Konoha with her because she worries for his safety, that's it. She didn't, but chose to reach out to him instead with her own confession of love/adoration or whatever you want to call it. Hell, she could've just reached out to him as just a comrade, but she took to romantic route while listing realistic facts about why she loves him.

That seems very telling and promising to me. 

On top of that, Sakura is known to exhibit this false smile whenever she's lying about something, as Sai has picked up on many times. Throughout this confession, the only time Sakura exhibits this false smile is when she talks about giving up her love for Sasuke. Now, of course, this isn't true because we all saw how she cried for the guy several chapters before, so we all know that's bull. Then, we all know that this sudden denouncement of her love for Sasuke was driven by her guilt at giving such a request to Naruto out of her selfish love for Sasuke. Her love for Naruto, itself, has nothing to do with that because that wasn't her objection in the first place which she later states after biting Naruto's head off about rejecting her love. When she talks of her affections and love for Naruto, there is no false smile or signs of deception on her face. Even when she makes the "fickle as autumn winds" line, there is a false smile on her face because we all know that she still loves Sasuke. 

I'm just saying. Context clues are very important in these kind of things.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 13, 2014)

No. I'll never defend that confession, no matter how I feel about NS. That confession was* completely* unnecessary.


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## PAWS (Feb 13, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> No. I'll never defend that confession, no matter how I feel about NS. That confession was* completely* unnecessary.



Not one person said it was necessary but it had a point in kishi trying to make Sakura look like heroine. He messed up badly but people take the confession so out of context its not even funny. Her reasoning behind what she did should be enough to show how close Naruto is to her heart.


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## legend of kyubi12 (Feb 13, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I think the reason Sakura was mad was because Naruto was denying her feelings for him, not the fact that he wasn't going back to Konoha. She even got in his face and shouted at him for taking her lightly. She was clearly upset about that.



She was mad because things weren't going as she had planned. Get Naruto to go back to Konoha while she and the group searched for Sasuke. Kiba asked her why not tell him the truth instead but shut it down, otherwise she knew Naruto would have interfered, she also wanted to spare him the burden.  



Naiki said:


> If she were lying, I'm sure she wouldn't have reacted that way and went straight to what her true objective was. As Sai said, she didn't come there to confess her love. She came there to tell Naruto to come back to the village and also the truth about Sasuke. In a way, her love confession was entirely unnecessary and she got pissed when her feelings were rejected.



Actually it's true she didn't go there to confess to Naruto. But she wasn't pissed because her feelings got rejected, just that her plan didn't work how she wanted it to. Sakura tried to have Naruto give up on his promise for her, thinking that her plan would work if she took this direction. It failed and she tried to cover her tracks. 



Naiki said:


> (it is here where she states her main objective for coming there, which backs up my point of her making a love confession to Naruto while denouncing her love for Sasuke as unnecessary. Her deciding to give a close to home love confession is telling because upon learning that Naruto loves her, she was willing to reciprocate his feelings and return to Konoha with him as possibly his girlfriend. I don't buy into the whole 'she was manipulating him' schtick because Sakura isn't that devious of a character. It would be out of character for her to do so and she really cares about how Naruto feels as a person.



....Really?  No offense but that's a very flawed argument. You do realize that a couple of days, maybe hours ago, can't tell really, before reaching Iron Country that she was very emotionally shattered when they said they were going to kill the boy she's been in love with throughout the entire series. Also the fact that how Naruto felt about her, by Sai, was revealed. So Sakura went from loving Sasuke to being emotionally shattered to suddenly in love and become reciprocal of Naruto's emotions in such a very short span of time? Yeah, I don't think so.



Naiki said:


> The last thing she would do would manipulate or hurt him in that way. One thing for certain is that she lied about loving Sasuke because she felt bad about the burden she felt she placed on him and the pain she placed on him. Because, remember, it was out of her love for Sasuke that Naruto made the PoaL in the first place and by declaring that she no longer loved Sasuke, she was hoping for Naruto to give up on that PoaL.)



True. Also I think you meant to say she lied about no longer loving Sasuke when it's obvious that wasn't the case. 



Naiki said:


> On top of that, Sakura is known to exhibit this false smile whenever she's lying about something, as Sai has picked up on many times. Throughout this confession, the only time Sakura exhibits this false smile is when she talks about giving up her love for Sasuke. Now, of course, this isn't true because we all saw how she cried for the guy several chapters before, so we all know that's bull. Then, we all know that this sudden denouncement of her love for Sasuke was driven by her guilt at giving such a request to Naruto out of her selfish love for Sasuke. Her love for Naruto, itself, has nothing to do with that because that wasn't her objection in the first place which she later states after biting Naruto's head off about rejecting her love. When she talks of her affections and love for Naruto, there is no false smile or signs of deception on her face. Even when she makes the "fickle as autumn winds" line, there is a false smile on her face because we all know that she still loves Sasuke.



From what I've seen that's only happened one time and that was during the Team 7 reunion thing in the Fourth Shinobi World War. Also she was mad because she thought doing it this way would get Naruto to go back to Konoha while she and the rest dealt with Sasuke, it didn't work and Sakura being Sakura lashed out to try and keep up the act. 



Naiki said:


> I'm just saying. Context clues are very important in these kind of things.



Actually not always. Sometimes when we think they mean something it turns out we were looking too much into it.


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## Naiki (Feb 14, 2014)

legend of kyubi12 said:


> She was mad because things weren't going as she had planned. Get Naruto to go back to Konoha while she and the group searched for Sasuke. Kiba asked her why not tell him the truth instead but shut it down, otherwise she knew Naruto would have interfered, she also wanted to spare him the burden.



I don't think that was the case. Why would she get upset if she already knew that he would react that way to her plans? What she was angry about was Naruto's rejection of her love, period, which explains why she says, "You think it's easy for a girl to confess her feelings?!" and "I'm the only one who knows how I feel!" Like I said, her objective wasn't to confess her love. Her objective was to come there and express her concern for him being there and tell him to come home, which is what she later revealed to be her objective.

Her love confession was completely unnecessary for that. She was reaching out to Naruto romantically and got pissed off because it wasn't reciprocated like she wanted it to. I don't think that this was a part of some plan either. She was reaching out because Naruto is an amazing person and she was willing to go back to Konoha with him as possible bf/gf. Simple.

The part that was a part of her plan was the lying about being in love with Sasuke. That was her way of atoning for the lifelong burden that she placed on Naruto because of her love for Sasuke. 




> Actually it's true she didn't go there to confess to Naruto. But she wasn't pissed because her feelings got rejected, just that her plan didn't work how she wanted it to. Sakura tried to have Naruto give up on his promise for her, thinking that her plan would work if she took this direction. It failed and she tried to cover her tracks.




It's like you didn't even look at the panels that I posted. It clearly shows Sakura being upset. You can't deny that she wasn't upset about the rejection of her feelings. What she was also pissed about was the fact that Naruto wouldn't give up on Sasuke, which was what her true plan was in the first place by telling him she didn't love Sasuke anymore. <--- That was the plan. Not her love confession itself. Yes, she was offering her admiration and adoration to Naruto in hopes of him accepting them. The feelings itself that she expressed weren't too off the mark, so even if it were a "plan" as you say, I think she was being genuine about how she felt for him. 

So, in a way, she was angry because he rejected her feelings and angry because he wouldn't stop pursuing Sasuke. Both played a factor in her anger. You also have to know that she was doing all of this in the best interest of Naruto. 





> \....Really?  No offense but that's a very flawed argument. You do realize that a couple of days, maybe hours ago, can't tell really, before reaching Iron Country that she was very emotionally shattered when they said they were going to kill the boy she's been in love with throughout the entire series. Also the fact that how Naruto felt about her, by Sai, was revealed. *So Sakura went from loving Sasuke to being emotionally shattered* to suddenly in love and become reciprocal of Naruto's emotions in such a very short span of time? Yeah, I don't think so.




That's my point. It was obvious that Sakura was lying about that which explained her fake smile. The denouncement of her love for Sasuke was what she had been planning, but not the reciprocation of Naruto's feelings. Also, let's not say that she was "suddenly" supposed to be in love with Naruto because she has been displaying several signs of looking at Naruto in a romantic light throughout this series. 

So . . . I wouldn't say that her confession of her feelings for Naruto itself is a lie, but her denouncement of her love for Sasuke is, which was her plan to begin with. 




> From what I've seen that's only happened one time and that was during the Team 7 reunion thing in the Fourth Shinobi World War. Also she was mad because she thought doing it this way would get Naruto to go back to Konoha while she and the rest dealt with Sasuke, it didn't work and Sakura being Sakura lashed out to try and keep up the act


. 


No. What Sakura wanted to do was tell Naruto she didn't love Sasuke anymore, having him revoke the PoaL and return to Konoha while she and the rest of the gang went after Sasuke. That was the plan. Her love confession itself of Naruto had nothing to do with all of this. Like I said, I don't think she was manipulating him with that. I think she genuinely felt that and she was offering herself to him because she knows that he is a good guy that makes her comfortable, and it's something that she can do because he is an amazing person. 

That's it. 





> Actually not always. Sometimes when we think they mean something it turns out we were looking too much into it.




Well, this is a debate thread and that is what the posters on here do. They speculate. I really don't know how you can debate without looking into it deeply. 

I'm just going by interpretation and what I think logically makes sense about the entire situation. The confession itself is a complicated situation and we have Sakura's word against Naruto's.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there


*Spoiler*: __ 



I never seen Hinata offer to feed Naruto



 boom


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 15, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> No. I'll never defend that confession, no matter how I feel about NS. That confession was* completely* unnecessary.



I love the fake confession. bye
i feel like i'm the only one who liked it.
why i liked it ? i love the idea behind it, i LOVE that sakura was willing to throw away her own happiness for naruto and konoha. she was willing to be sad for the rest of her life so their suffering will end. its like she thought about her other's benefits but her own. (thats my gurl)
-she didnt want to burden naruto with the promise
-she didnt want naruto be in danger cos of sasuke
-she thought sasuke was so far gone so she didn't want him to fall deeper in the darkness
point is i liked the fake confession. 

and y'all really think it was real ??? c'mon now. even naruto told her “I hate people who lie to themselves!!!!” he knows how much sakura IS IN LOVE with sasuke. thats all he knows about her anyway
look even naruto acknowledged it so it isn't worth debating, tbh.


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## LesExit (Feb 15, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


XD is that really "boom" worthy?


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## PAWS (Feb 15, 2014)

LesExit said:


> XD is that really "boom" worthy?



Not exactly but it just shows how under developed the pair is. They dont have any moments like that. All of their moments happen in some sort of crisis.


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## ARGUS (Feb 15, 2014)

NaruHina ftw 
SasuSaku is ok


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## SoulFire (Feb 15, 2014)

After a very busy week I finally have time to jump into the roller coaster that is this thread! 

First off I will say this: No one should be called 'desperate' and/or 'delusional' simply because they possess a different point of view and wish to defend/explain it. That is what we do when debating, and if others join in the debate, it is guaranteed that the subject being discussed will continue to be discussed, even if it is 'beating a dead horse' on all sides.

Secondly, no matter how one looks at the 'gf' panels, I consider the entire thing to be much ado about nothing. Nostalgic humor to usher in the Team 7 reunion and nothing more. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Now on to the current discussions. Back to Sakura's confession, eh?


> *TheDevineOneDannii:* I love the fake confession. bye
> i feel like i'm the only one who liked it.
> why i liked it ? i love the idea behind it, i LOVE that sakura was willing to throw away her own happiness for naruto and konoha. she was willing to be sad for the rest of her life so their suffering will end. its like she thought about her other's benefits but her own. (thats my gurl)
> -she didnt want to burden naruto with the promise
> ...



This says it all. Everything Sakura did was about her boys and not herself. She wanted to protect Naruto from the awful truth that Sasuke was on the Konoha hit list and she wanted to save Sasuke from himself, even though it meant killing him. Her plan failed miserably all the way around. When Sakura lashed out at Naruto (and Kiba), she was angry and disappointed more so with herself than either of them.  



> *LesExit:*I think Sakura's confession displays that she knows mentally there are good reasons as to why she should love Naruto. He's the one who's been there for her while Sasuke has been gone, Naruto has been the one to help her, and the one she can touch(just insert all the reasons she gives in her confession)...but as far as truly loving Naruto in her heart...she doesn't. I think thats why Naruto told her, he hates people who lie to themselves, because they both know where her heart truly lies.
> 
> I think Sakura already knows just how much Naruto means to her, and who makes her feel the best and the most comfortable (Later Part I and Part II has showed her realizing this) and how Sasuke causes her pain...but that hasn't seemed to be enough for her to shift her feelings yet.



I  agree with most this. In spite of the fact that Sakura cares deeply for Naruto and has come to acknowledge all that he is, she has not fallen 'in love' with him. I don't see her feelings shifting this late in the game. 

As to Sakura offering to feed Naruto twice: The first time she would not have done so had Sasuke not offered first. The second time a flashback about Naruto expressing how happy he was that they were working together to save Sasuke induced her to offer to feed him. It was an act of comrade-re and friendship on her part. It also served as a comedic moment, with Kakashi eventually serving up the ramen.

True, development between Naruto and Hinata has taken place primarily under adverse conditions. Doesn't make the development any less relevant. As members of separate teams, they have had much fewer chances to interact, and Hinata has been painfully shy through a good part of the story. Still, a good deal of the time, when they do meet up there is progression both in character development and their relationship with one another. Whether one sees this as romantic or not, it cannot be denied.


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## LesExit (Feb 15, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Not exactly but it just shows how under developed the pair is. They dont have any moments like that. All of their moments happen in some sort of crisis.


They're not on the same team so they're not around each other as much!
Kishimoto rarely(if ever O___o?)shows Naruto just hanging out with his friends.
This is a ninja manga so I don't think it's illogical that Naruto and Hinata have had moments surrounding battle(does the proud failure speech count in that category you think?)

The moments where Naruto and Hinata do interact are always meaningful and result in great positive development between the two of them. Even though their meetings are shown to be less occurrent, the moments they have are so powerful it doesn't matter. Whats that saying....my brain is not working...uh....quality over quantity! Thats way I see it :33 This war arc however they've had more quantity than I was expecting.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 15, 2014)

Literally the feeding thing is about as romantic as Sasuke wanting to feed Naruto in part 1.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 15, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Literally the feeding thing is about as romantic as Sasuke wanting to feed Naruto in part 1.



Context. How does it work?


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## Kakugo (Feb 15, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Literally the feeding thing is about as romantic as Sasuke wanting to feed Naruto in part 1.





Naruto begs to differ.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Context. How does it work?



ikr?  How does one even compare the two?


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## Naiki (Feb 15, 2014)

^ Not to mention Sakura is giving him "bedroom" eyes.

In fact, it wasn't until Sakura offered to feed Naruto _after_ Sasuke did, that Naruto actually blushed and reacted. People automatically assume that just because Sasuke wanted to feed Naruto, Sakura did too. After the explanation about how Naruto would be a hindrance to the group, Sakura realizes that Sasuke is right and she acts accordingly.

I don't think she was just following what Sasuke was doing because she was a "fangirl". She thought over what he said and acted upon it after realizing he was right. Hell, when he first did offer, she questioned it and told him that the weren't supposed to because Kakashi would catch them.

But, who does Naruto's gratitude go to? That's right: Sakura.



He didn't even acknowledge that Sasuke was trying to feed him too. The same can be said for the Sai interfering with the Sakura feeding scene. Naruto was actually pissed at Sai for interfering.


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## SoulFire (Feb 15, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Naruto begs to differ.
> 
> 
> 
> ikr?  How does one even compare the two?



The element linking them is, of course, Sasuke. Sakura fed Naruto at the training grounds upon Sasuke's lead. The second incidence is inspired by Sakura's flashback (the final panel of which graces those provided). She had been recalling how Naruto was cheered as she healed his arm by their shared quest to save Sasuke. However thrilled Naruto was by the offer (he has always found Sakura attractive and being fed by her was an old fantasy), there was no romance from Sakura's pov. She was acting out of friendship and a sense of camaraderie--the thought of team mates joined by a goal close to both their hearts.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 15, 2014)

Context? The context is the fact that she was doing something a team mate should do, as shown in part 1. It's called teasing. She was teasing him "Oh well... I guess it can't be helped" and decides to try and feed him, but if that isn't enough of a fuck you, Kakashi tries to help as well as Sai, as to show this is a friendly moment.
Don't give me "Context" when it's right there ._.


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## Naiki (Feb 15, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> *The element linking them is, of course, Sasuke.* Sakura fed Naruto at the training grounds upon Sasuke's lead. The second incidence is inspired by Sakura's flashback (the final panel of which graces those provided). She had been recalling how Naruto was cheered as she healed his arm by their shared quest to save Sasuke. However thrilled Naruto was by the offer (he has always found Sakura attractive and being fed by her was an old fantasy), there was no romance from Sakura's pov. She was acting out of friendship and a sense of camaraderie--the thought of team mates joined by a goal close to both their hearts.




Bolded Part, Not necessarily. The element linking them together is that they both are getting closer  to their goal, together. That is what makes Sakura smile. Sasuke is the goal they are after, yes, but it is something they are going after together. 

As for the first incident, I highly doubt that Sakura was just following Sasuke's lead just because she was a "fangirl" as people like to always claim. She was doing it because Sasuke was right about Naruto being a hindrance if he doesn't eat, which could result in the entire team being held back. Before him, she even informs him that they shouldn't do that for fear of failing. Sakura was _not_ following along like a little puppy. 

Lastly, Naruto thinks more of Sakura than just being attractive. He likes/loves her and you can't downplay his reaction to both of these instances as just that. It has been a fact known since chapter three. Also, obviously, he thinks she is more than just attractive since the reason he likes/loves her so much is because she is like him.

She seeks acknowledgement and acceptance. That statement was made in chapter three, so I don't know why people are still using the argument that he has a "crush" on her or he just thinks she is attractive. Liking somebody because they share the same values as you + attractive is more than just a crush.

Remember, a crush is completely shallow and only looks at what's on the outside, not the inside. 

As for Sakura's reaction, with her expression in the panel and body position, I doubt she was just being platonic. She clearly was giving him bedroom eyes and had a sort of flirtatious expression to her face. Not at all like the expression that Naruto was giving Hinata when he was holding her hand, which can be entirely classified as platonic since he wasn't even looking her directly in the eyes, but Sakura was doing to Naruto which hints at it having subtle romantic undertones. 

{x} Naruto looking at Hinata compared to:

 Sakura looking at Naruto.

There's also the fact that there is motion lines of Sakura moving closer to Naruto as she looks directly into his eyes. I mean, come on, this comes off as way more than platonic.


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## PAWS (Feb 15, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Context? The context is the fact that she was doing something a team mate should do, as shown in part 1. It's called teasing. She was teasing him "Oh well... I guess it can't be helped" and decides to try and feed him, but if that isn't enough of a fuck you, Kakashi tries to help as well as Sai, as to show this is a friendly moment.
> Don't give me "Context" when it's right there ._.



Remember when naruto and Hinata had a moment like that? They didnt. We werent even trying to prove it was romantic just that fact that SS and NH do not have those moments like ever. Dont even bring up Naruto and Hinata are not teammates because that is not an excuse for them not having development like that.


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## Kakugo (Feb 15, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> The element linking them is, of course, Sasuke. Sakura fed Naruto at the training grounds upon Sasuke's lead. The second incidence is inspired by Sakura's flashback (the final panel of which graces those provided). She had been recalling how Naruto was cheered as she healed his arm by their shared quest to save Sasuke. However thrilled Naruto was by the offer (he has always found Sakura attractive and being fed by her was an old fantasy), there was no romance from Sakura's pov. She was acting out of friendship and a sense of camaraderie--the thought of team mates joined by a goal close to both their hearts.





MichaelInsanity said:


> Context? The context is the fact that she was doing something a team mate should do, as shown in part 1. It's called teasing. She was teasing him "Oh well... I guess it can't be helped" and decides to try and feed him, but if that isn't enough of a fuck you, Kakashi tries to help as well as Sai, as to show this is a friendly moment.
> Don't give me "Context" when it's right there ._.





Whether you think that the element "linking" them is Sasuke or not is completely irrelevant. It was a purely Naruto <-> Sakura moment that demonstrated how close and tightly bonded they are, nevermind Naruto's sweet blush towards her and getting pissed at Sai for interrupting the moment. I see no fucking teasing going on from Sakura's end, so not sure where the hell that idea came from. Kishi certainly didn't need to go to this extent to remind us of the "friendship" we already knew was there, so obviously, this moment meant something more.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 15, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Remember when naruto and Hinata had a moment like that? They didnt. We werent even trying to prove it was romantic just that fact that SS and NH do not have those moments like ever. Dont even bring up Naruto and Hinata are not teammates because that is not an excuse for them not having development like that.



Funny enough, even IF (and that's incredibly unlikely) Naruto and Sakura's relationship was simply platonic, their relationship would still, at the end of the day, have far more depth and meaning than Naruto's relationship with Hinata, romantic or otherwise.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 15, 2014)

Naiki said:


> {x} Naruto looking at Hinata compared to:
> 
> Sakura looking at Naruto.
> 
> There's also the fact that there is motion lines of Sakura moving closer to Naruto as she looks directly into his eyes. I mean, come on, this comes off as way more than platonic.



Comparing a war time moment when Naruto was trying to be confident to a team lunch with everyone relaxed is not really relevant. If it were the same situations, that would be applicable. The emotions and timing are 2 factors that can't be ignored.

Also, Idk where the attitude came from your reply to my post about the feeding, but I wasn't directing any anger or aggression at you ._. the 'fuck you' part was not aggression. Simply and expression ._.


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## Naiki (Feb 15, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Comparing a war time moment when Naruto was trying to be confident to a team lunch with everyone relaxed is not really relevant. If it were the same situations, that would be applicable. The emotions and timing are 2 factors that can't be ignored.
> 
> Also, Idk where the attitude came from your reply to my post about the feeding, but I wasn't directing any anger or aggression at you ._. the 'fuck you' part was not aggression. Simply and expression ._.




Well, people are claiming that Naruto is showing positive reception to Hinata's feelings during this war, and I'm just showing proof that it isn't like that in comparisons. I find it outrageous that atmosphere appropriate "flirting" from Sakura is deemed as platonic, but obviously platonic gestures from Naruto in an inappropriate atmosphere is. And then, I guess, being friendly and kind = returning/showing receptive to romantic feelings? Not only that, but the context as well as Sakura's posture AND face expression suggest it to be romantic inclined. Yet, in comparison to Naruto's interaction with Hinata, it pales in comparison and doesn't even come close to be flirty and romance personified. 

That's sort of backwards if you ask me.

Also, I never got an attitude. However, if you were offended, I apologize.


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## Lucky7 (Feb 15, 2014)

May I throw in my two cents? I loves a good debate .
I don't even _ship_ Narusaku or Naruhina, but Kishi is clearly going in the direction of Narusaku now. Yes,Naruto and Hinata had their moments and hand-holding cover, but we also must look at what development has come after. I think its only a testament that his feelings for Hinata are platonic because despite all that, he _ still_ called _Sakura_ his girlfriend. Whether Narusaku happens or not, wherever Sakura's feelings lie at this point, we know Naruto is still romantically interested in Sakura and only Sakura.


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## Njaa (Feb 15, 2014)

^ The closest thing to "flirting" was when Sakura was looking for a compliment after they first meet post timeskip.


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## SoulFire (Feb 16, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Bolded Part, Not necessarily. The element linking them together is that they both are getting closer  to their goal, together. That is what makes Sakura smile. Sasuke is the goal they are after, yes, but it is something they are going after together.
> ...


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## Naiki (Feb 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Most definitely. The element that brings them together there and quite often within their relationship is Sasuke. The joy that Naruto expresses in their shared quest is what makes Sakura smile. Yes, it is all about them pursuing that goal together and that goal is Sasuke.




Yes, it is because they are together in their struggles that brings them together, not Sasuke. Their bond has been strengthened throughout this series because of their struggles together and the endurances that they go through together to get their team back. They always do things together and that's what builds the relationship between them and the development. They both get stronger together, they are both pursuing their goals together. 








It was at the words of Naruto saying that "I feel like we're finally getting closer to Sasuke, *together*" --- that triggered Sakura's actions.







> I've never said that Sakura was behaving like a fan girl or a puppy. However, Sakura was a very 'by the book' student. While her inner self may have relished the thought of breaking rules, she always followed them, and Kakashi had just laid down a big one--do NOT feed Naruto. Had Sasuke not made the first move, she would never have offered Naruto her lunch.




That's sort of what I thought you were getting at since you said something along the lines of Sakura following Sasuke. That's not really much of an argument saying Sasuke wasn't breaking the rules, Sakura wasn't either. 

It WAS a test after-all. That's like saying that since they both were following the rules of their teacher, Sakura is following her crush who she so happens to also have an infatuation with. On top of that, they both more than likely believed that they would fail for feeding Naruto. 

Also, it doesn't matter if Sasuke made the first move or not. The bottom line is that Sakura was reluctant to feed Naruto after Sasuke offered his own food, but she conceded after Sasuke gave the explanation as to why and the hindrance of Naruto to the group. 

When Sasuke offered his food, Sakura was not following Sasuke, but she offered her food for good reason and it was NOT because Sasuke offered his. It was because Naruto would be a hindrance to them. 




> Naruto has always found Sakura attractive. His first comment about her is that she is a cute girl he kind of likes. He has also had a fantasy about being fed by her. And yes, he had a crush on her. This was also one of those comic relief scenes of which Kishi is so fond.




Yes, and that was early on in the chapter. It was until later when Sakura tried to kiss a Sasuke-transformed Naruto that Naruto finally figured out why he liked her so much. According to my definition of crush; it is an unreasonable infatuation.

Is Naruto's 'love' for Sakura unreasonable? No, it's not. He has a reason and it's because she, like him, wanted to gain acknowledgment and acceptance from the person he loves, which is her. Yes, Naruto has always found Sakura attractive, but that doesn't mean he doesn't truly love her. You're making it seem like if someone is attracted to another person, then it's automatically labeled as a crush. I know plenty of people that are attracted to their husbands and wives yet love them from the bottom of their heart. 

You're right about one thing though: He had a crush on her but it's obvious now that the 'crush' has developed into something a bit more. On top of that, Naruto has acted selflessly several times in the name of Sakura's happiness, so I'm sure that his feelings for her are far more than just a crush.

This was confirmed by Sai when he told Sakura that Naruto loves her and she remembers back to that selfless PoaL that he made. I don't know how anyone can really say that Naruto's feelings are shallow and just a crush after seeing the PoaL and how Naruto is hurt whenever he sees Sakura upset about Sasuke.

I don't., really. You have to atleast admit that he loves the girl. 




> I never quite got the 'I like her because she seeks to be acknowledged (by Sasuke)' just because that isn't really much of a reason to like someone romantically. Makes Naruto's feelings appear as even more of a crush, imo. I don't think a crush is always completely shallow. One can pine deeply and painfully over a crush--it feels like the real thing to somebody in the midst of one.




Actually, it is because that gives Naruto room to understand Sakura more. He understands her desire to be acknowledged by the person she loves and that's plenty of reason to love someone romantically. In fact, it makes Naruto's love for Sakura as more as a selfless love. It is because of this understanding of Sakura's feelings that Naruto selflessly gave the PoaL in the name of her happiness. 

Like I said before, usually, crushes focus on the sexual attractiveness of someone of their sex appeal. Just like people have crushes on celebrities and the lot because of their sex appeal or something shallow like that. That is not how Naruto's feelings for Sakura are characterized. Yes, Naruto thinks Sakura is attractive but it goes far beyond that. Naruto genuinely cares about Sakura's feelings and the PoaL is an example of this as well as the pained expressions he always give when Sakura is upset over Sasuke. And then, there is the fact that he won't tell her his feelings _because_ he couldn't keep his promise. If his feelings were just a crush and didn't hold much water, he would've already told her he liked her without a care for the world about her feelings. 

It's more than just a crush. He genuinely loves her. 




> I'm seeing Sakura scooting her chair in closer in order to help Naruto eat with a warm, almost *teasing* expression (to go with 'I guess it can't be helped'). Hardly bedroom eyes or flirting. Teasing a little, yes, because she is amused by his plight and warm because of that endearing flashback of their shared desire to save Sasuke.



I think you meant flirtatious, because that's clearly what it is. It's most definitely flirty. She is flirtatious, like a spouse or wife would be, and offers to assist him after an endearing flashback about their journey together to accomplish their goal of getting closer to Sasuke.

You are right that it's endearing but in more of a NarSak light. Also, it's not teasing. It's flirting.   Why would she suddenly decide to tease Naruto after having a flashback like that? Also, I don't know where you got the notion that she was amused from. She wasn't laughing or showing any signs of such. 




> Those are some strange comparisons between the two 'couples'. Naruto's mouth is wide open as he is speaking and his eyes are cast wide and to the corner because Hinata is apparently a step or so behind him.  I would choose this for a comparable NH exchange:
> 
> 2
> 
> This occurred during the handhold and Naruto is definitely looking into Hinata's eyes (as well as squeezing her hand in his).




Not really. People claim that the exchange between Naruto and Hinata was romantic, and I'm showing how it isn't with an example of my own with something considered romantic in comparison. Also, when Naruto is speaking to Hinata, it doesn't appear that he is speaking in a soft or alluring tone which is appropriate since they're in war. Second, yes, his eyes are wide open which doesn't give off any romantic inclination whatsoever. In your comparable NH exchange, he doesn't have a flirtatious expression AT ALL. The only thing he is giving her is confident, self-assurance smile as he squeezes her hand to give her even more assurance. Nothing rings as romantic about that exchange; sorry. Even then, what also makes the exchange in that panel non-romantic is the fact that she is conjuring some type of confidence and assurance as she prepares to attack. 

The purpose of that panel is to show that Naruto gives her confidence and it allows her to move forwards without fear. Nothing romantic about that at all. If anything, it's just romantic on Hinata's end. So, really, it can't be compared to that flirtacious exchange between Naruto and Sakura. 

Also, again, he thought he is looking at Hinata, it isn't with a coquettish or with a soft expression that lets one know that the moment is romantically inclined from Naruto --> Hinata. There is only a radiant, confident smile from him which can easily read as camaraderie. 

Heck, it can be the same smile that Sakura gives Kakashi when everyone is doubting Naruto's strength during the chunin exams. 




> Naruto and Hinata have had their own moments, such as the one referred to above. And yes, the fact that they are not team mates and thus do not have the same opportunity to interact does play a part in the extent of their development with one another. Still, almost every time they are brought together in the story their development (both individually and with one another) grows.




If you mean moments of camaraderie and upliftance from Naruto --> Hinata, then yes. There hasn't been any romantic development in the NarHin relationship. The fact that they are in separate teams and if Kishi seriously wanted to consider developing their relationship romantically, he would've gave Hinata more panel time with Naruto, but he hasn't. 





> I agree that the moment shows how close and tightly bonded Naruto and Sakura are--*and a good deal of that bond has evolved through their shared feelings for Sasuke.* Sakura's tease is not a 'nya nya' type of tease. It is a sweet, friendly tease because she is feeling close to Naruto after that memory and she is amused by his flustered attempts at feeding himself. Sakura's actions are there to show just how much she now has bonded with Naruto and to serve as a lead into a planned comedic exchange.




I think you misunderstand where the development is coming from in Naruto and Sakura's relationship. The development is coming from their endurance together as they accomplish their goals in the midst of struggle and pain. Also, I don't know too many people who tease their friends with that type of look on their face. It's not friendly, it's flirtatious. 

The only thing comedic about the whole incident was the fact that Sai (a friend) was interfering in a special moment between Naruto and Sakura.


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## SoulFire (Feb 16, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Yes, it is because they are together in their struggles that brings them together, not Sasuke. Their bond has been strengthened throughout this series because of their struggles together and the endurances that they go through together to get their team back. They always do things together and that's what builds the relationship between them and the development. They both get stronger together, they are both pursuing their goals together.



Naruto and Sakura have formed their bond through their struggle to save Sasuke. That is what has drawn them together and strengthened their friendship. They do not always do things together outside of their team assignments--at least not that we have been shown. 



> It was at the words of Naruto saying that "I feel like we're finally getting closer to Sasuke, *together*" --- that triggered Sakura's actions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Naiki (Feb 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto and Sakura have formed their bond through their struggle to save Sasuke. That is what has drawn them together and strengthened their friendship. They do not always do things together outside of their team assignments--at least not that we have been shown.
> 
> /Naruto-Chapter3436_zpsc6f47cfb.png[/IMG][/SPOILER]
> 
> I agree. That is pretty much what I said: It is all about them pursuing that goal together and that goal is Sasuke.




Yes, but through endurance as well and growing closer through their journey. Don't forget that their bond was growing way before Sasuke left as well, so it wasn't just through their struggle and endurance to get Sasuke back. 




> But Sasuke DID break the rules.




And Sasuke questioned Sasuke's breaking of the rules before finding reason and breaking it as well. She wasn't following. She acted on her own merits out of finding truth in Sasuke's explanation about Naruto holding the team back. 





> None the less, had Sasuke not offered his own meal to Naruto, there was no way that Sakura would have made a move to do so. She would have followed Kakashi's orders without a second thought.




Exactly, that doesn't mean that she was following Sasuke because she was following Kakashi's order just as he was. They both were following the same guidelines, not necessarily following each other. 




> A crush is an infatuation, but not necessarily an unreasonable one. A crush, as I see it, _is_ a form of love. It can feel strong and all consuming and either fades away or ends rather painfully.
> 
> People become enamored with another for many reasons. I think Naruto's crush began as an attraction to a cute girl (because Sakura's early treatment of him was anything but crush worthy). Once he learned that she was a seeker of acceptance, as was he, there was something to connect with and give weight to his crush.




There is a reason why a crush is called a crush and love is called love. To me, a crush is skin deep and focused more on the outer attributes to someone rather than their personality. For example, a celebrity crush is skin deep because we don't know about that person's life; we are just infatuated with said celebrity because their handsome or we like what they have in life (expensive car/house etc). Normally, crushes can are short-termed as well.

Now, true love is something deeper. True love is when you love the person for who they are and you genuinely care about their well-being and happiness. Normally, true love isn't short-termed and not easily extinguished. Naruto's feelings for Sakura are more characterized as this. He has loved Sakura for over three years now and even the fact that Sakura may love another hasn't deterred his feelings for her. True love is what keeps a person with you when your skin has gone wrinkled, your steps have grown shorter, and your hair has gone grey.

Naruto cares about Sakura's happiness and he is able to relate to her and understand her struggle with unrequited love. 




> Really now?   I've been married for 39 years--I know this quite well. I also can remember a very emotional crush in my earlier years that felt very real at the time...but it was not.




The thing is: Naruto's love can't be characterized as a crush. Since the beginning of the series, Naruto has listed why he loves Sakura so much and it's not skin deep. It's because, like him, she seeks acknowledgement and acceptance from the person she loves. 





> Naruto's crush has changed over time and developed into a sincere love of Sakura, and I do believe his attraction to her still remains (Sakura has many appealing qualities that have only improved as she has matured). Still, I feel that he made the decision to move on back around the time of the PoaL and with all that has happened has done so by now.




How can you say that he's moved on when he confirmed that he hasn't by telling his father that she's his girlfriend? To me, it looks like he's still holding onto the idea that she might be his one day. 




> I've never said that Naruto's feelings are shallow, crush or not. He is empathetic to Sakura's upset about Sasuke because, as with the PoaL, he can relate to her feelings and he doesn't want to see her hurt.




Exactly, and it's because he understands her and wants her to be happy. 




> Naruto continues to have strong feelings for Sakura, but they have gradually been changing from a tween crush to a _strong, supportive and loving friendship_.




So, when you feel strong, supportive, loving platonic feelings for someone, you tell your father that said girl is your girlfriend? 

I don't know about that one. 




> Crushes are not necessarily focused on sex appeal. There are as many reasons as there are people for crushes--and at the time when Naruto developed his crush on Sakura, he wasn't all that certain even what a relationship with a girl was about (as evidenced by his thoughts while in Jiraiya's company).




Crushes are more than likely skin deep. I have never seen someone who had a crush on somebody else get married to that person or have long-term love for that person. Usually, when you have a crush on someone, you overcome it in a short period of time. 

Naruto hasn't overcome his feelings despite the heartache, so it's apparent that it's more than that. 




> I do believe Naruto's love is genuine--it has just changed in nature with the acceptance and support of Sakura's feelings for another.




He supports her happiness, but that doesn't stop him from loving her. 




> Nope. Don't see Sakura's behavior as flirtatious. A gentle tease and a friendly offer. That's all.




Eh, well there's nothing I can say about that even though there's no evidence of her teasing. She isn't even smiling when he's struggling with his chopsticks, so I don't know where you got the teasing bit from. 




> Sakura was amused by Naruto's flustered attempts to feed himself. Not 'haha, look at the baka' amused; gently amused. The way she says 'it can't be helped' shows her amusement.




Doesn't look amused to me:


or here:


Why would she all of a sudden be amused after a flashback like that? Also, the 'can't be helped' is meant to be taken in a lighthearted way where she is basically saying "I guess I have no choice". Not that this matters, but the anime also depicts it in this way too. 

Not in amusement. 




> There is no way that Naruto would be speaking in a soft, alluring tone while on the battlefield (actually, it's kind of hard to imagine him ever speaking in that way, being Naruto). As you say, that would just be inappropriate. *But romance can be conveyed through things other than words*.




There was no romantic action going on between Naruto and Hinata though. 




> Naruto's expression is not flirtatious, nor should it be in such a situation: It is *soft, gentle and sincere.* That hand squeeze could suggest more than one type of assurance.




No it's not. It's one of confidence, re-assurance, and unwavering hope. There is nothing gentle about his expression. 

Please don't be biased by what you _want_ to see. 




> There is nothing wrong with gathering confidence and assurance from an indication that the one you care about believes in you and just might return your feelings.




Him squeezing her hand in self-assurance and in confidence does not equal reciprocating feelings. I'm sorry. Hinata didn't take Naruto reciprocating her feelings from that moment, but rather confidence in her abilities, which was what Naruto was doing to begin with. 




> Actually, that is a soft smile that Naruto is sending Hinata's way. Confident _and_ gentle _and_ accompanied with that squeeze of her hand. It can just as easily be read as a hint of romance.
> 
> No, it's not. That smile is purely of confidence and camaraderie.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 17, 2014)

Lucky7 said:


> May I throw in my two cents? I loves a good debate .
> I don't even _ship_ Narusaku or Naruhina, but Kishi is clearly going in the direction of Narusaku now. Yes,Naruto and Hinata had their moments and hand-holding cover, but we also must look at what development has come after. I think its only a testament that his feelings for Hinata are platonic because despite all that, he _ still_ called _Sakura_ his girlfriend. Whether Narusaku happens or not, wherever Sakura's feelings lie at this point, we know Naruto is still romantically interested in Sakura and only Sakura.



so Sakura's feelings don't matter ?
look i know how shounen works, the hero always get he wants and female's feelings don't matter. oh well.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm pretty sure nobody's going to force her into a relationship if she is with someone whether it's Naruto, Sasuke or friggin Hinata then that is her choice.


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## PAWS (Feb 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> so Sakura's feelings don't matter ?
> look i know how shounen works, the hero always get he wants and female's feelings don't matter. oh well.



Last time I heard Sakura was trying to end these feelings because they hurt too much. So yeah if Naruto's love is a positive one then thats the one that the shounen should go for. Sakura's love is a negative one that only hurts her.


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## LesExit (Feb 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> so Sakura's feelings don't matter ?
> look i know how shounen works, the hero always get he wants and female's feelings don't matter. oh well.


idk....Sasuke's already stealing Naruto Hokage hat XD


Tom Servo said:


> I'm pretty sure nobody's going to force her into a relationship if she is with someone whether it's Naruto, Sasuke or friggin *Hinata* then that is her choice.


I am not _too_ strongly against that >u>


PAWS said:


> Last time I heard Sakura was trying to end these feelings because they hurt too much. So yeah if Naruto's love is a positive one then thats the one that the shounen should go for. Sakura's love is a negative one that only hurts her.


Even though one guy is clearly the "nice guy" compared to the other...It doesn't mean you're going to love them. You can't always just fall in love with someone because they're the good logical choice, it's never that simple. I think Sakura showcased that very well in her confession. She listed all the good logical reasons as to why she should just get over Sasuke and love Naruto, but clearly that isn't enough D: Cause love isn't just about logic...it's about that special _connection_ thats just unexplainable O____O If that connection isn't there then...idk?

Loving Sasuke does hurt her , a lot, but it's also provided her with a tremendous amount of self-growth and in Part I Sakura and Sasuke had many positive moments. If Sasuke is redeemed then I see more of that in the future :3

I don't know what you mean by end her feelings though? I don't recall her implying wanting to give up her feelings. I think the last thing she said was thanking Naruto for giving her hope that one day Team 7 will be able to laugh together again, and that she just needed to believe in Naruto _and_ Sasuke. So I think Naruto has given her hope to linger on to those feelings more if she was thinking of giving up her feelings.


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## PAWS (Feb 17, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Even though one guy is clearly the "nice guy" compared to the other...It doesn't mean you're going to love them. You can't always just fall in love with someone because they're the good logical choice, it's never that simple. I think Sakura showcased that very well in her confession. She listed all the good logical reasons as to why she should just get over Sasuke and love Naruto, but clearly that isn't enough D: Cause love isn't just about logic...it's about that special _connection_ thats just unexplainable O____O If that connection isn't there then...idk?



But that is not even what I said, she had said "Of course they are going to take the man's feelings into account but not the female's" All I was saying was that if one is positive and other very negative than its not being sexist its just being logical as to which one they would choose. 



> Loving Sasuke does hurt her , a lot, but it's also provided her with a tremendous amount of self-growth and in Part I Sakura and Sasuke had many positive moments. If Sasuke is redeemed then I see more of that in the future :3



Both Naruto and Sasuke has equally provided her with tremendous growth, maybe even Naruto more due to more interaction. I really dont think positive moments(not many at all) of when they were kids would be sufficient enough. Especially when all of part 2 has been negative.



> I don't know what you mean by end her feelings though? I don't recall her implying wanting to give up her feelings. I think the last thing she said was thanking Naruto for giving her hope that one day Team 7 will be able to laugh together again, and that she just needed to believe in Naruto _and_ Sasuke. So I think Naruto has given her hope to linger on to those feelings more if she was thinking of giving up her feelings.



She tried to kill Sasuke because of how he was hurting both of them. Exactly her feelings are such a negative that it led to her trying to kill Sasuke, then having the positive in her life make it better.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 17, 2014)

PAWS said:


> She tried to kill Sasuke because of how he was hurting both of them. Exactly her feelings are such a negative that it led to her trying to kill Sasuke, then having the positive in her life make it better.



No, she went to kill Sasuke to end what she thought was his misery, or pain. She didn't want him to get further into the darkness. This is put into words. Also, she risked Naruto never wanting to speak to her again... Yep, totally helping herself in that situation.

The only positive in that is the man she loves doesn't have to become darkness or whatever. Buuuut we all saw how that ended. She still loves him. End of story.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 17, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> No, she went to kill Sasuke to end what she thought was his misery, or pain. She didn't want him to get further into the darkness. This is put into words. Also, she risked Naruto never wanting to speak to her again... Yep, totally helping herself in that situation.
> 
> The only positive in that is the man she loves doesn't have to become darkness or whatever. Buuuut we all saw how that ended. She still loves him. End of story.



Quoted for the truth, yo. She went to kill Sasuke for his sake so he wouldn't sink deeper into darkness, knowing Naruto would hate her for it. It was directly stated she was doing it to stop the man she loves from falling even further towards evil.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 17, 2014)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> Quoted for the truth, yo. She went to kill Sasuke for his sake so he wouldn't sink deeper into darkness, knowing Naruto would hate her for it. It was directly stated she was doing it to stop the man she loves from falling even further towards evil.



Pretty fucking much. Nothing else to it. She went to Naruto for the sole purpose of trying to trick him into not going after Sasuke so she didn't feel guilty because of his burden, but also so she could save Sasuke from himself by killing him. Really complicated and horribly thought out on her part. I think she though Naruto would just fall for it...


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## LesExit (Feb 17, 2014)

PAWS said:


> But that is not even what I said, she had said "Of course they are going to take the man's feelings into account but not the female's" All I was saying was that if one is positive and other very negative than its not being sexist its just being logical as to which one they would choose.
> 
> Both Naruto and Sasuke has equally provided her with tremendous growth, maybe even Naruto more due to more interaction. I really dont think positive moments(not many at all) of when they were kids would be sufficient enough. Especially when all of part 2 has been negative.


Well I was just trying to show how love isn't so black and white. idk XD

Ya I'd say they've both provided her with growth too :3 I think most of Naruto and Sakura's growth has come from their want to save Sasuke from the darkness.
I find their moments were pretty strong and that the two of them definitely established something back then that can be built upon. Sasuke thanked Sakura before he left the village...so he must've felt something good from their time together. Well thats the way I see it.


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## Kage (Feb 17, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> No, she went to kill Sasuke to end what she thought was his misery, or pain. She didn't want him to get further into the darkness. This is put into words. Also, she risked Naruto never wanting to speak to her again... Yep, totally helping herself in that situation.
> 
> The only positive in that is the man she loves doesn't have to become darkness or whatever. Buuuut we all saw how that ended. She still loves him. End of story.



She _was_ helping herself in that situation. She had already been informed of Sasuke's misdeeds at that point but didn't plan on putting Sasuke out of his misery until _after_ Sai dropped the Naruto bomb on her. Sakura figured she could kill two birds with one stone by relieving Naruto of his burdens and "saving" Sasuke. In the end she was unable to manage neither because being honest was too difficult and saving her true love the only way she thought possible hurt _her_ too much. Naurto is suffering, Sasuke is suffering <insert stupid plan to "help" them both here that she fails> but woe is Sakura. There was nothing positive about that.

Her love for Sasuke continues to get shitted on too btw. Dunno where Kishi is going with that tho honestly.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 17, 2014)

Her 'love' for Naruto isn't doing any better. Neither is Naruto's 'love' for Sakura .-.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 17, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Her 'love' for Naruto isn't doing any better. *Neither is Naruto's 'love' for Sakura* .-.



err its actually not doing bad at all. Its currently the only one implied to not be one-sided.


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## Kage (Feb 17, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Her 'love' for Naruto isn't doing any better. Neither is Naruto's 'love' for Sakura .-.



They never got to the point where _murder_ was an option. I'd say that has both doing a _little_ better by comparison.


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## SoulFire (Feb 17, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Yes, but through endurance as well and growing closer through their journey. Don't forget that their bond was growing way before Sasuke left as well, so it wasn't just through their struggle and endurance to get Sasuke back.



Sasuke was instrumental in their early growth as well, because he opened Sakura's eyes to the unkind way in which she was treating Naruto. From there she was able to see Naruto's better qualities and grow to like and accept him as friend and team mate. After all, this story is all about bonds.



> And Sasuke questioned Sasuke's breaking of the rules before finding reason and breaking it as well. She wasn't following. She acted on her own merits out of finding truth in Sasuke's explanation about Naruto holding the team back. That doesn't mean that she was following Sasuke because she was following Kakashi's order just as he was. They both were following the same guidelines, not necessarily following each other.



I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Sasuke was NOT following Kakashi's orders: He was _defying _them and feeding Naruto when told not to under penalty of disqualifying the team. Sakura would not have done the same without Sasuke's initial action to do so. 



> There is a reason why a crush is called a crush and love is called love. To me, a crush is skin deep and focused more on the outer attributes to someone rather than their personality. For example, a celebrity crush is skin deep because we don't know about that person's life; we are just infatuated with said celebrity because their handsome or we like what they have in life (expensive car/house etc). Normally, crushes can are short-termed as well.



I don't know about celebrity crushes--never had one. I do know about thinking you're madly in love with someone and discovering that it's just not what you thought it was.



> Now, true love is something deeper. True love is when you love the person for who they are and you genuinely care about their well-being and happiness.



True love may be deeper than a crush, but a crush is every bit as emotional.



> Normally, true love isn't short-termed and not easily extinguished. Naruto's feelings for Sakura are more characterized as this. He has loved Sakura for over three years now and even the fact that Sakura may love another hasn't deterred his feelings for her.



When it comes to Naruto's feelings, it appears to me that Sakura's love for another has deterred them to the extent that he decided to take himself out of the equation. He hasn't really been all that troubled by his 'sacrifice', with the only reference being Sai's flashback to earlier in part two in which Naruto allows Sakura to disappear into the distance. Since then he has stated that the PoaL is not a factor and no longer matters. I see these factors as evidence that his feelings could possibly be in flux. 



> True love is what keeps a person with you when your skin has gone wrinkled, your steps have grown shorter, and your hair has gone grey.


LoL! You don't have to tell_ me_ that!! 



> Naruto cares about Sakura's happiness and he is able to relate to her and understand her struggle with unrequited love.



Nothing to disagree with here.



> The thing is: Naruto's love can't be characterized as a crush. Since the beginning of the series, Naruto has listed why he loves Sakura so much and it's not skin deep. It's because, like him, she seeks acknowledgement and acceptance from the person she loves.



That isn't really much of a list or much of a reason for romantic love.



> How can you say that he's moved on when he confirmed that he hasn't by telling his father that she's his girlfriend? To me, it looks like he's still holding onto the idea that she might be his one day.



Please let's not reopen that smelly kettle of fish. You know I do not view that scene in such a light and do not at all consider it as serious proof of anything.



> Crushes are more than likely skin deep. I have never seen someone who had a crush on somebody else get married to that person or have long-term love for that person. Usually, when you have a crush on someone, you overcome it in a short period of time.



I think people can and do marry crushes. Then they get divorced.



> Naruto hasn't overcome his feelings despite the heartache, so it's apparent that it's more than that.



I just don't see all that much heartache on his part. He actually appears to accept Sakura's love for Sasuke as much as he expects it. 



> He supports her happiness, but that doesn't stop him from loving her.



It shouldn't stop him from loving her--I just think that he has accepted loving her in a different way.



> Eh, well there's nothing I can say about that even though there's no evidence of her teasing. She isn't even smiling when he's struggling with his chopsticks, so I don't know where you got the teasing bit from.
> 
> Why would she all of a sudden be amused after a flashback like that? Also, the 'can't be helped' is meant to be taken in a lighthearted way where she is basically saying "I guess I have no choice". Not that this matters, but the anime also depicts it in this way too.
> Doesn't look amused to me:



In these panels Sakura is looking at Naruto's injured hand and beginning her flashback, so there is no amusement. She is serious at this point.



> or here:



Here Sakura has finished her flashback, the camaraderie of it buoying her mood. She has a touch of a smile as she says, "it can't be helped" which of itself hints at gentle, non-depreciating amusement ('I have no choice but to help you, you loveable goof'). It is actually a warm moment and is meant to be seen in a lighthearted manner (though I don't see it as flirtatious or as 'making eyes' at him).



> There was no romantic action going on between Naruto and Hinata though.



We see that differently. The actions and eye contact in themselves can be viewed as romantic in nature. Just depends on interpretation. 




> No it's not. It's one of confidence, re-assurance, and unwavering hope. There is nothing gentle about his expression. Please don't be biased by what you _want_ to see.



We are _all_ biased by what we _want_ to see.  Naruto's smile is confident and re-assuring, but it is also gentle and sincere. 



> Him squeezing her hand in self-assurance and in confidence does not equal reciprocating feelings. I'm sorry. Hinata didn't take Naruto reciprocating her feelings from that moment, but rather confidence in her abilities, which was what Naruto was doing to begin with.



I think Hinata drew confidence from Naruto's self assurance and the intimacy of that hand hold. She wouldn't be remembering a squeeze of her hand as a 'you can do it' encouragement. She is gaining confidence as much from the sense that he just may be responding to her in a romantic way.



> It's simply mind-boggling that you can't see that incident between Sakura and Naruto as what it is: flirtacious, but see Naruto's obviously confident smile as gentle and romantic.


I could say the same thing to you in reverse. 



> {x}
> 
> Naruto's smile is the exact same smile that Sakura gives Kakashi. Naruto's lips curl upwards just like Sakura's in a smile of re-assurance and confidence. Just as Sakura is smiling at Kakashi in re-assurance and confidence, Naruto is smiling in re-assurance and confidence as he squeezed her hand as they face the Juubi.



 I don't find these two smiles at all alike. There is a harder dip to Sakura's eyebrow and a wider curve to her mouth. Naruto's smile is very subtle, as though it is meant for only Hinata to see, and the hand squeeze simply adds to the personal connection between them. 



> He has provided NH with platonic development, yet, but definitely not romantic. You are right. He is doing things his way and it isn't NH as far as how things are going now.



Well, that's one way to look at it, but  certainly not the only way.   



> Naruto and Sakura's development began from the beginning of the series. So, their development doesn't just evolve around Sasuke.



Sasuke was also there from the beginning of the series and often played a part in their development, one way or another right from the start. 



> If Sai was interpreting the scene as a 'true friend helping out a friend', why did he interrupt? Sakura, just a friend, was already helping, right? So, why the need for him to interrupt if one friend was already doing it? That's because that's not the case.



Sai interrupted because he wanted to show his friendship--and it made for a humorous scene, which was the final point of the scene.



> Whether she cared or not is irrelevant because Naruto and Sakura were both participants of a potentially romantic/special moment.



If Sakura were really sensing a romantic/special moment, I think she would definitely be showing some of that  infamous temper if interrupted, but she doesn't bat an eye.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Feb 17, 2014)

I can't say I really agree fully with either of your views on the matter of that scene, LadyOfHubris or SoulFire. I think you go too far in making it out to be a highly significant scene LoB and making it out as a serious romantic advance on Sakura's part. On the other hand, denying it as flirtatious at all on Sakura's end is something I can't really agree with. For as much as chip tried to push that Sakura's expression is not sensual based on a different panel where Sakura's face is somewhat alike but is facing down when talking to a young girl, which ignores context and by that same token throws several NH and probably also SS arguments out the window as they are based on pointing out specific expressions, Sakura's expression is fairly clearly sensual. Her doing some slight flirting with Naruto wouldn't mean that she is suddenly in love with him, they are both hormonal teenagers here and even male-female friendships that never go beyond that and neither party wants it to go beyond that will in most cases have some flirting. 

Its a nice NS scene in that it shows them growing ever more comfortable with the other but its not a major advancement, just one of the many scenes for the pairing that make it much more believable and natural than the other two. Admitting it for what it is doesn't mean accepting NS as canon but I'm used to anything about the pairing being vehemently denied as not having any meaning and/or existing.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 17, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> err its actually not doing bad at all. Its currently the only one implied to not be one-sided.



Lmao implied to not be one sided? One sidedness, as it stands, refers to all of the ships
Let's not bullshit guys, I think we KNOW FOR A FACT right now,

Naruto likes Sakura, may be developing feelings for Hinata
Sakura LOVES Sasuke feelings on Naruto are unknown. No, CPR is not love. Otherwise, I'd be dating my school nurse.
Sasuke has not shown to undeniably like or love anyone

Ok, so now that that is settled, what, servo, do you mean by 'the only one implied to not be one-sided' ?


----------



## LesExit (Feb 17, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> err its actually not doing bad at all. *Its currently the only one implied to not be one-sided.*


naaaaaah....I think technically there are none canon wise o___o



So if Sakura loves Naruto, does she see Hinata as competition? Since she knows Hinata loves Naruto? During the Chunin Exams she also seemed to be aware of Hinata always watching Naruto.

I don't get why Kishimoto would have a panel like this? Why would he have the girl Naruto's supposed to end up with acknowledging another girls love?
Sakura's shown no sign of being jealous at all and she did just see Hinata holding hands with Naruto and everything too....
I see this as a big reason as to why NS probably won't happen.
Thoughts homies?


----------



## Kage (Feb 18, 2014)

Why show her having a reaction at all? She's aware yeah and while not seething with jealously she doesn't appear to be super supportive either.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with that Sakura panel, she looks a little sad though? Surely you see that there are many valid (so far) interpretations of this scene so trying to claim it as NH/ANS seems a little silly to me.

I mean if Sakura's slightly sad it could be because she feels Hinata is a better fit for Naruto than she is, or she knows Naruto has never really given a romantic fuck about this girl who keeps chasing after him? 

If you want to talk about third party impressions of pairings then NS will bring up Yamato, Sai and Minato .


----------



## emachina (Feb 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> You want to talk about third party impressions of pairings then NS will bring up Yamato, Sai and Minato .



Wouldn't take to much stock in them. Yamato knew them for all of a day when he made a comment to Sakura. Sai doesn't really understand emotional nuances. And Minato's been alive for half an hour. I think you'd find better proof of NH/NS in omakes then those three.

As for the panel, it can be read either way. Sakura is sad that there's competition for Naruto's feelings now, or she could just look sad because of the fact her friends are hurt, her village is destroyed, she suspected Kakashi and Tsunade were dead. I can't imagine her having a happy smile on her face even if she was supportive of Hinata and happy she finally confessed.


----------



## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

*Special Connection 1*



LesExit said:


> Even though one guy is clearly the "nice guy" compared to the other...It doesn't mean you're going to love them. You can't always just fall in love with someone because they're the good logical choice, it's never that simple. I think Sakura showcased that very well in her confession. She listed all the good logical reasons as to why she should just get over Sasuke and love Naruto, but clearly that isn't enough D: Cause love isn't just about logic...it's about that *special connection* thats just unexplainable O____O If that connection isn't there then...idk?



Where is this _special connection_ between Sakura and Sasuke? 

Is it when Sasuke notices she's depressed and compliments her genjutsu to cheer her up?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Cuz it really doesn't indicate any special connection to me. It's obvious that something's wrong. Especially since she's normally like this:


She went from that to this:

Sasuke isn't dense or oblivious like Naruto, and Sakura _is_ his friend. And the day just before that, he had insulted her abilities, comparing her to Naruto and telling her that if she has time to bother him then she should go practice a jutsu or two. For all he knows, her depression is his fault. It's not really. Not entirely. But he did contribute to it.

*Spoiler*: __ 








It doesn't take a genius to see that she's upset and figure out why. But even if it did, Sasuke _is_ a genius, so there ya go. He not only wanted to make her feel better, but wanted to make up for bringing her down in the first place. Also wanted to make sure she brought her a-game for the exam.


----------



## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

*Special Connection 2*

Or is it when she hugs him in the FoD? Cuz to me, that really doesn't either.

*Spoiler*: __ 




While the curse seal was manifesting, Sasuke was remembering the day his clan died and how he had been powerless to protect everyone important to him. He had been weak and everyone he cared for had been killed.


When he woke up, Sasuke saw Sakura, his friend and teammate (not love interest), all beaten up. Unlike the day his clan died, he wasn't powerless and wouldn't cry. He had strength and he would use it. I have no doubt in my mind that if it had been Naruto that Sasuke had seen beaten up, he would have reacted the exact same way he did with Sakura. This was not romantic nor possessive of Sasuke. Clearly, Sakura didn't think it was either which is why she's scared instead of flattered and cheering him on. This is all Chapter 56 btw if ya wanna go check stuff. I don't feel like posting the whole chapter. I'm posting a lot of it though

Sasuke was in a power frenzy. Instead of only wanting to protect his comrades, Sasuke wanted to really hurt  whoever was threatening one of his important people. And he was actually enjoying hurting them until Sakura snapped him out of it.


Now, Sakura's _hug_ wasn't what calmed Sasuke down. It was her worry. See how Sasuke is looking at her eyes, which are full of concern and fear for him.


And when he sees that, that's when the curse seal starts receding.


None of this indicates a special connection because this is not exclusive to Sakura alone. Later, Sasuke tells Sakura not to say anything to Naruto. Why? He doesn't want to worry him.


Even later during his preliminary battle, not wanting to worry both Sakura _and_ Naruto is his incentive to keep the seal at bay.


Even for Sakura, her reaction isn't exclusive to Sasuke. She did the same exact thing with Naruto.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sakura running toward Sasuke as he's being corrupted by curse seal:


And Sakura running toward Naruto as he's being corrupted by kyuubi:




Only difference is Sakura never reached Naruto cuz one of his tails knocked her away. But her reaction for both Sasuke and Naruto were the same.


----------



## Tom Servo (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> naaaaaah....I think technically there are none canon wise o___o



Evidence from other characters say otherwise.


----------



## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

*Special Connection 3*

Neither do either of these moments right here:


*Spoiler*: __ 




First off, Naruto's face is pained because he's watching his crush hang all over someone else. His reason for leaving is not because he sees Sasuke's reaction (what reaction?) and decides to move on from Sakura. He leaves because it hurts him to see stuff like this. It's a rare scene that shows his feelings for Sakura are actually serious. We don't see these moments very often. Tsunade even comments "Heh, Naruto's more sensitive than he looks" This moment was emphasized to show _Naruto's_ reaction, not Sasuke's (seriously, what reaction? looking at her?)


Okay, now let's recap what happened with Sasuke before being hospitalized. He encountered Itachi, tried to kill him, got his ass kicked, was Tsukiyomi'd, relived the Massacre again and passed out.

So to me this face

says something like, ?Wha? What happened? Where am I? Huh? Sakura? ...Seriously, what the hell happened?? I go on to assume that once Naruto leaves the room Sasuke does not drift off into a private little world with Sakura (especially considering they really can't cuz Tsunade still needs to tell Sasuke to rest and what not), but instead starts remembering about Itachi. I imagine him tensing up, and (once she's done feeling relieved and crying) Sakura most likely noticing and pulling away. By now he's probably starting to make some sort of face so she's probably all ?Sasuke-kun?? cause she feels something's wrong. Something is indeed wrong and it stays wrong until... actually, nearly 500 chapters later and I'd say it's still wrong.

Anyway, Sasuke proceeds to stress about Itachi until the next time he's shown. And what's he doing the next time we see him? Laying in the hospital bed, stressing about Itachi, and letting his jealousy of Naruto's growth fester. 



Then the apple tray incident happens. And I'm sorry, but if you have 'special' feelings for someone, you do not act like that _toward your love interest_ because said love interest is giving attention to your rival. Ya just don't.

My conclusion? Sasuke does not have special feelings for Sakura and his jealousy has nothing to do with romance and everything to do with feeling inferior to Naruto. 

And Sasuke_ can't_ be inferior to _Naruto_. He's the sole survivor of the reknowned Uchiha Clan. Itachi left _him_ alive for a reason. He's special. He has to be. And yet _Naruto_ was able to beat Gaara and save Sakura when Sasuke couldn't. And yet Itachi came all the way to Konoha looking for _Naruto_. And yet _Naruto_ was able to learn a stronger jutsu than chidori. Naruto, Naruto, Naruto

You see why Sasuke started losing it?


----------



## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Loving Sasuke does hurt her , a lot, but it's also *provided her with a tremendous amount of self-growth* and in Part I Sakura and Sasuke had many positive moments. If Sasuke is redeemed then I see more of that in the future :3



Her romantic love for Sasuke is not what made her grow. Not ever. What made her grow was her desire to keep up with both Sasuke _and_ Naruto. To stop being a burden to _both_ of them and to change so she could protect _both_ of them. To become strong so her and Naruto could bring Sasuke back _together_.

Show me manga panels where Sakura finds determination and strength while thinking solely of Sasuke.

The only moment that shows Sakura being strong while solely thinking of Sasuke, that I remember, is:  And imo this doesn't even have to be seen as romantic love, but a love for a comrade. Both Naruto and Sasuke had similar moments before this. Self-sacrificing moments. This is just the first time we see Sakura doing it post-FoD. It shows her growth. This is _after_ she found her determination to become a good kunoichi.

People say Sakura's defined by her love for Sasuke, but she's really not. imo Hinata's more defined by her love for Naruto than Sakura is by hers for Sasuke.



> I don't know what you mean by end her feelings though? I don't recall her implying wanting to give up her feelings. I think the last thing she said was thanking Naruto for giving her hope that one day Team 7 will be able to laugh together again, and that* she just needed to believe in Naruto and Sasuke*. So I think Naruto has given her hope to linger on to those feelings more if she was thinking of giving up her feelings.



Which is why, when she was replying to Sai, she was trying to convince herself that she still has faith in Sasuke. Because she wants to be able to believe in both of them.

Also, why does not giving up on saving Sasuke have to mean loving him forever and ever? Sasuke isn't the same person he was in Part 1. He's not the same Sasuke that Sakura loved. *He never will be again.* Even when he finally opens himself up to caring for people again, you really think he'll just revert back to his 12 year old self? No, he'll be a new, different Sasuke. A 'good' one, but not early Part 1 Sasuke. He's changed permanently from the Sasuke she loved.

It makes perfect sense that Sakura would start moving past her old feelings after realizing this. This is not the Sasuke she fell in love with. She's starting to let go because of this. And it's not fickle.

If SS can ever happen it's not going to be in the time-span of the manga. Neither Sakura and Sasuke even know each other anymore. They'd have to become friends again, have time to move past everything that's happened, and have time to actually fall in love with who the other has become. imo


Whoo. Okay I'm done. Feels good to get all that out


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

emachina said:


> Wouldn't take to much stock in them. Yamato knew them for all of a day when he made a comment to Sakura. Sai doesn't really understand emotional nuances. And Minato's been alive for half an hour. I think you'd find better proof of NH/NS in omakes then those three.
> 
> As for the panel, it can be read either way. Sakura is sad that there's competition for Naruto's feelings now, or she could just look sad because of the fact her friends are hurt, her village is destroyed, she suspected Kakashi and Tsunade were dead. I can't imagine her having a happy smile on her face even if she was supportive of Hinata and happy she finally confessed.



Was Yamato ever really wrong about Team 7 in other cases? I think it's valid to view him as a bit of an author mouthpiece. Kakashi did the same thing regarding getting to know Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura very quickly when Team 7 first formed. Minato on the other hand is a bit harder to reject, after all Kishi does like his parallels and the major ANS argument against them has always been that it's never been explicitly mentioned as a parallel on panel (NS->MinaKushi), Minato's words negate that. Anyone who claims that Sakura panel means more than the Minato/NS scene would have to be either biased or a fool.

Oh primarily I was just arguing against the use of that panel as meaning something pro-NH, otherwise I don't really care.

Edit: @Les; you should remember that the last time we've really seen jealousy from a character was Naruto in Part 1. Now when even he is grown up enough that it's stopped being a factor, I _really_ don't think a lack of it from Part 2 Sakura is as damning as you think.


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Why show her having a reaction at all? She's aware yeah and while not seething with jealously she doesn't appear to be super supportive either.


What do you mean why? If she loves Naruto why wouldn't she have a reaction? Would you not have a reaction knowing that someone else loves the same person you do? The fact that she hasn't been shown to have a jealous reaction seems pretty big to me.


Mr Horrible said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with that Sakura panel, she looks a little sad though? Surely you see that there are many valid (so far) interpretations of this scene so trying to claim it as NH/ANS seems a little silly to me.
> 
> I mean if Sakura's slightly sad it could be because she feels Hinata is a better fit for Naruto than she is, or she knows Naruto has never really given a romantic fuck about this girl who keeps chasing after him?
> 
> If you want to talk about third party impressions of pairings then NS will bring up Yamato, Sai and Minato .


Nah I don't even think it had anything to do with those things. I think Sakura knows what it's like to love someone like Hinata does. She's sad because seeing Hinata do this out of love, reminded her of her _own _love for Sasuke and how she understands how Hinata would be so willing to do something like put her self in life-threatening danger for Naruto.

It's not me wanting to talk about third party impressions really. I wasn't even trying to focus on NH too much. I was more wanting to focus on Sakura herself and how for a girl who's supposed to be falling for Naruto, not having a bad reaction to the feelings Hinata has doesn't do a very good job at showing her wanting to be with Naruto too badly. Look at it as unimportant if you want, but I find it pretty important and strong evidence of her not falling for Naruto.



Tom Servo said:


> Evidence from other characters say otherwise.


Well we can all use evidence that implies things. but no one can say honestly 100% that these pairings are not still one-sided.


TheWebbstir said:


> Her romantic love for Sasuke is not what made her grow. Not ever. What made her grow was her desire to keep up with both Sasuke _and_ Naruto. To stop being a burden to _both_ of them and to change so she could protect _both_ of them. To become strong so her and Naruto could bring Sasuke back _together_.
> 
> Show me manga panels where Sakura finds determination and strength while thinking solely of Sasuke.
> 
> ...


Thank you...thank you for writing me an essay + reps for all that time and effort!  You really want me to reply to all the panels and stuff though? Can I choose a few or something? I'm so lazy XD

I mean I was just trying to say that when it comes to love we can't always just direct our feelings to the "right" place. Theres just a connection we feel to that person...whether it's logically good to be with that person or not doesn't always mean something... I was trying to refer to Sakura and her feelings, not really Sasuke's. So not their connection_ together_...but the way she feels a romantic click with him and not Naruto. I think they definitely have a connection though, I see you clearly don't 

I agree with that 100% her want to keep up with the two of them greatly fueled her strength, I was actually gonna write that too, but didn't for somer reason O____O Her love for Sasuke was apart of what fueled the desire to get Sasuke back, make her want to get even stronger to be able to help Naruto, I guess I was trying to refer to that. 

I don't think either girls are defined by their love. How much they love Sasuke and Naruto are a big part of them of course though, and well isn't everyone we deeply love? Sakura wants to keep up with Naruto and Sasuke, and bring back the one she loves. Hinata wants to keep up with Naruto, and to be stronger for her clan. All those goals seem pretty fine to me ( ･ω･)

It doesn't _have_ to mean that....nope. 
If Team 7 is going to be able to laugh together again, theres going to have to be some part of the old Sasuke there. The whole Team 7 reunion showed how even though they were apart for a long time, they still act out many of those old Team 7 roles and dynamics.Naruto and Sasuke bickering, Sakura paying attention to Sasuke, Naruto feeling left out XD. (This chapter actually surprised me. I personally think Kishimoto made Team 7's reunion too....easy) As you said Sasuke isn't the same person...but the way Kishi wrote him and them, made it seem like they were back in Part I o____o So, maybe it won't be too hard to go back, and therefore the need to let go of her feelings wouldn't seem necessary, cause the old Sasuke is still in there. The time when Sasuke truly struck Sakura as not himself, is during his crazy I will destroy all of Konoha mental state phase...I don't get Sasuke. He's had so many mental state changes it's weird lol

Fickle will be if Sakura falls in love with Naruto. Her words not mine. 

I think it should be that way....I think that if Sasuke and Sakura get together, it should be something where they slowly build up their trust and relationship. That how all the good fan-fictions are written imo  Chapter 632 convinced me that if they're meant to be together...Kishimoto probably won't do that...and that Sasuke and Sakura's trust will be built back up again easily. If theres no way to write it well in the manga time-line, I'd rather him leave it open-ended but implied that Sasuke and Sakura are becoming extremely close, and a time-skip years in the future perhaps. That would be good too me 

I'm glad you feel better ~(˘▾˘)~ I'm in pain though. Not because of you though ...(╥﹏╥)


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Nah I don't even think it had anything to do with those things. I think Sakura knows what it's like to love someone like Hinata does. She's sad because seeing Hinata do this out of love, reminded her of her _own _love for Sasuke and how she understands how Hinata would be so willing to do something like put her self in life-threatening danger for Naruto.



So you're checking it up to Sakura being sad over her feelings for Sasuke again?

I'm ok with this .



> It's not me wanting to talk about third party impressions really. I wasn't even trying to focus on NH too much. I was more wanting to focus on Sakura herself and how for a girl who's supposed to be falling for Naruto, not having a bad reaction to the feelings Hinata has doesn't do a very good job at showing her wanting to be with Naruto too badly. Look at it as unimportant if you want, but I find it pretty important and strong evidence of her not falling for Naruto.



Sakura's expression seems to have a bit in common with Naruto's during his conversation with Sai in 457~ (in terms of body language). As my edit said previously, if you're looking for jealousy then you're just not going to find it, that doesn't work with who the characters are now (it may when the war/turmoil is over though).

My original point was that you are choosing a highly ambiguous scene that all pairings can spin their way and claiming it as solid evidence. I really disagree with that and currently I think we need more information before we know where Kishi was going with that scene.


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## Corvida (Feb 18, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > No it's not. It's one of confidence, re-assurance, and unwavering hope. There is nothing gentle about his expression.
> ...


----------



## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Thank you...thank you for writing me an essay + reps for all that time and effort! * You really want me to reply to all the panels and stuff though? Can I choose a few or something? I'm so lazy XD*



Nah, not if you don't feel like it. That was just me taking an opportunity to vent out my interpretations 



> I mean I was just trying to say that when it comes to love we can't always just direct our feelings to the "right" place. Theres just a connection we feel to that person...whether it's logically good to be with that person or not doesn't always mean something...I was trying to refer to Sakura and her feelings, not really Sasuke's. So not their connection_ together_...but the way she feels a romantic click with him and not Naruto. I think they definitely have a connection though, I see you clearly don't



I got what you were saying, and I know it's true. You can't just point to someone and be like "I should fall in love with you" then do it. And yeah, I definitely don't see any special connection. I certainly made that clear 



> I agree with that 100% her want to keep up with the two of them greatly fueled her strength, I was actually gonna write that too, but didn't for somer reason O____O Her love for Sasuke was apart of what fueled the desire to get Sasuke back, make her want to get even stronger to be able to help Naruto, I guess I was trying to refer to that.



I like to think that even if Sakura weren't in love with Sasuke that she would still have been determined to help bring him back. He's her teammate and friend too. Not just love interest. But you're right. Because her love for Sasuke fuelled her all the more



> I don't think either girls are defined by their love. How much they love Sasuke and Naruto are a big part of them of course though, and well isn't everyone we deeply love? Sakura wants to keep up with Naruto and Sasuke, and bring back the one she loves. Hinata wants to keep up with Naruto, and to be stronger for her clan. All those goals seem pretty fine to me ( ･ω･)



Every time Hinata is focused on, literally _every_ time, her admiration and/or love for Naruto plays a part in whatever happens. It's unfortunate, but true. Unless you remember a time where it's not? Point it out, please, if you do. I'm tired of looking through the manga



> It doesn't _have_ to mean that....nope.
> If Team 7 is going to be able to laugh together again, theres going to have to be some part of the old Sasuke there. The whole Team 7 reunion showed how even though they were apart for a long time, they still act out many of those old Team 7 roles and dynamics.Naruto and Sasuke bickering, Sakura paying attention to Sasuke, Naruto feeling left out XD.* (This chapter actually surprised me. I personally think Kishimoto made Team 7's reunion too....easy)* As you said Sasuke isn't the same person...but the way Kishi wrote him and them, made it seem like they were back in Part I o____o So, maybe it won't be too hard to go back, and therefore the need to let go of her feelings wouldn't seem necessary, cause the old Sasuke is still in there. The time when Sasuke truly struck Sakura as not himself, is during his crazy I will destroy all of Konoha mental state phase...I don't get Sasuke. He's had so many mental state changes it's weird lol



Well, they are in the midst of war right now. They all had a common goal and there was just no time to deal with their team problems. So they skipped the drama and went straight to kicking ass.  It was also, of course, nostalgia for us fans.

I firmly believe Sasuke'll always be different from his Part 1 self. What he'll regain is his consideration for others. That's all he needs right now. And it is still in him somewhere. The last time he put anyone else before himself was during Team Taka's fight with Killer B (he thought of Team 7 and saved Karin by putting out the flames). But even with that he won't be the same. You don't go through all the crap Sasuke has and not come out changed.



> Fickle will be if Sakura falls in love with Naruto. Her words not mine.



She has her fake smile on when she says that. Naruto's on to her and she's trying to get him to believe it's possible.



> I think it should be that way....I think that if Sasuke and Sakura get together, it should be something where they slowly build up their trust and relationship. That how all the good fan-fictions are written imo  Chapter 632 convinced me that if they're meant to be together...Kishimoto probably won't do that...and that Sasuke and Sakura's trust will be built back up again easily. If theres no way to write it well in the manga time-line, I'd rather him leave it open-ended but implied that Sasuke and Sakura are becoming extremely close, and a time-skip years in the future perhaps. That would be good too me



I'd hate those fanfictions  They're definitely not meant to be in my book. But to each his own, yeah? 



> I'm glad you feel better ~(˘▾˘)~ I'm in pain though. Not because of you though ...(╥﹏╥)


Well that's not good. Stop being in pain


----------



## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Nah, not if you don't feel like it. That was just me taking an opportunity to vent out my interpretations


>u> good...cause I wasn't gonna anyways. I'm that lazy. I'm glad you got to vent out your pairings feelings! Make sure to share it with all the anti-sasusaku homies, they shall appreciate your hard-work :3




TheWebbstir said:


> I got what you were saying, and I know it's true. You can't just point to someone and be like "I should fall in love with you" then do it. And yeah, I definitely don't see any special connection. I certainly made that clear
> 
> I like to think that even if Sakura weren't in love with Sasuke that she would still have been determined to help bring him back. He's her teammate and friend too. Not just love interest. But you're right. Because her love for Sasuke fuelled her all the more


Oh alright, cool homie(thats been my new word lately :3) It's ok, I enjoyed the passion you put into it.
Oh I know she would! Cause like you said they're teammates and he her friend!



TheWebbstir said:


> Every time Hinata is focused on, literally _every_ time, her admiration and/or love for Naruto plays a part in whatever happens. It's unfortunate, but true. Unless you remember a time where it's not? Point it out, please, if you do. I'm tired of looking through the manga



Chunin Exams? Or does the fact that she mentions Naruto at all ruin that for you XD? She clearly has her own want to better herself as an individual. Not just win Naruto's affection or something. I don't really have a problem with Naruto being a large part of her character. I wish we would get to see more about her standing in the clan, and her changing relationship with her father. But she's not an Uchiha, what can ya do?


TheWebbstir said:


> Well, they are in the midst of war right now. They all had a common goal and there was just no time to deal with their team problems. So they skipped the drama and went straight to kicking ass.  It was also, of course, nostalgia for us fans.


I WANT THAT DRAMA THOUGH!  Now...I want it now (╥﹏╥)


TheWebbstir said:


> I firmly believe Sasuke'll always be different from his Part 1 self. What he'll regain is his consideration for others. That's all he needs right now. And it is still in him somewhere. The last time he put anyone else before himself was during Team Taka's fight with Killer B (he thought of Team 7 and saved Karin by putting out the flames). But even with that he won't be the same. You don't go through all the crap Sasuke has and not come out changed.


Well he'll never be exactly the same of course! He's...seen too much...and...ya
but like you said regaining consideration for others, and being able to laugh at a joke here and there(at least twice a year (▰˘◡˘▰))


TheWebbstir said:


> She has her fake smile on when she says that. Naruto's on to her and she's trying to get him to believe it's possible.


Which means she has no other way to get him to believe it's possible? Cause there is no other way  (;? ロ?)!?!? 


TheWebbstir said:


> I'd hate those fanfictions  They're definitely not meant to be in my book. But to each his own, yeah?


WHAT!? homie...b-but...you're missing out. Theres so good stuff out there I swear. You can find anything, SasuSaku, NaruSaku, SakuHina....ShizTsu >///> everything...


TheWebbstir said:


> Well that's not good. Stop being in pain


I can't...the pain is here to stay!


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## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> *>u> good...cause I wasn't gonna anyways*. I'm that lazy. I'm glad you got to vent out your pairings feelings! Make sure to share it with all the anti-sasusaku homies, they shall appreciate your hard-work :3






> Chunin Exams? Or does the fact that she mentions Naruto at all ruin that for you XD? She clearly has her own want to better herself as an individual. Not just win Naruto's affection or something. I don't really have a problem with Naruto being a large part of her character. *I wish we would get to see more about her standing in the clan, and her changing relationship with her father. But she's not an Uchiha, what can ya do?*



Exactly! What about the Hyuugas huh? What about Hinata's history?! *Sigh* I suppose I shouldn't complain. No Hyuuga's a main character. I should be happy Hinata gets as much as she does.



> Well he'll never be exactly the same of course! He's...seen too much...and...ya
> but like you said regaining consideration for others, and being able to laugh at a joke here and there(at least twice a year (▰˘◡˘▰))


Only laughing twice a year. What a sad life that would be



> I can't...the pain is here to stay!


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 18, 2014)

It think it's all but confirmed that NaruSaku are canon now, barring Sakura dying to save Naruto which would leave Hinata by default really.

That being said though, I'll just repost my thoughts on NaruSaku VS NaruHina from tumblr.

-

I’m not a big shipper in general, and a part of me feels silly for even getting involved, but the passion of shippers in the Naruto fandom in particular has sparked my interest.

In an earlier post I wrote that I preferred NaruSaku over any other pairing with Naruto because she is his dream girl and I’d like for him to get what he wants, which is, amongst other things, to be with Sakura. Now I’ve heard compelling arguments for and against various pairings, but if there is one thing that confuses me it’s this, I don’t know, assumption that because Hinata loves Naruto he is somehow obligated to reciprocate.

Before anyone calls me a hypocrite, I know that the same applies to NaruSaku because Naruto loves Sakura, who doesn’t share those feelings, but when it comes to them there is a lot more basis for a romantic relationship. There is history between them, and a lot of it. Furthermore, Sakura actually does deeply care about Naruto in a way he evidently doesn’t for Hinata. It might not be romantic in nature, but what Sakura feels for him is strong enough to have her seriously consider and attempt to not only accept his love and be with him (because she knows that’s what he wants), but to release him from his burden by killing Sasuke for him. That level of sacrifice is on the same level, from where I’m standing anyway, as the sacrifices Naruto made for Sakura, i.e. making that promise of a lifetime to return Sasuke to the village, to suppress his own feelings for her so that she can be happy regardless of the cost, and going as far as denying himself the opportunity to be with her when she offered it.

I don’t see this level of devotion between Naruto and Hinata. They’re friends, sure, but it would be a stretch to say they are particularly close friends. Their relationship certainly is nowhere near that of Naruto and Sakura. Naruto hasn’t made the same sacrifices for Hinata as he has for Sakura, who has at least reciprocated in terms of sacrifice as Naruto has for (though not for the same duration) by trying to give him what he wants at the cost of her own happiness, and by taking on immeasurable pain in killing Sasuke so that he wouldn’t have to.

I’m not going to bring up all the instances in the manga where Kishimoto trolled either side of the shipping wars with hints and whatnot, as it’s been done to death anyway, but to sum it up: NaruSaku simply makes more sense than NaruHina. There’s more history and basis for it to happen.


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## emachina (Feb 18, 2014)

Considering this thread is 23 pages long, and the biggest NaruSaku scenes for the past 200 chapters that fans have pointed to as undeniable "proof" involve Sakura punching Naruto after he answered Minato's question and then the big make out scene people technically call CPR, I'm inclined to believe NaruSaku is far from canon. I seriously do not get the NaruSaku argument. The only thing Sakura has come close to punching as many times as she has Naruto, is the ground. How is that "proof" of love?


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## Tom Servo (Feb 18, 2014)

emachina said:


> Considering this thread is 23 pages long, and the biggest NaruSaku scenes for the past 200 chapters that fans have pointed to as undeniable "proof" involve Sakura punching Naruto after he answered Minato's question and then the big make out scene people technically call CPR, I'm inclined to believe NaruSaku is far from canon. I seriously do not get the NaruSaku argument. The only thing Sakura has come close to punching as many times as she has Naruto, is the ground. How is that "proof" of love?



err nobody here has been using that cpr evidence as canon so I don't know where your getting that from.

Also the shonen "foreshadowing father" is almost a cliche at this point so yeah it kind of does have some proof.


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

emachina said:


> Considering this thread is 23 pages long, and the biggest NaruSaku scenes for the past 200 chapters that fans have pointed to as undeniable "proof" involve Sakura punching Naruto after he answered Minato's question and then the big make out scene people technically call CPR, I'm inclined to believe NaruSaku is far from canon. I seriously do not get the NaruSaku argument. The only thing Sakura has come close to punching as many times as she has Naruto, is the ground. How is that "proof" of love?



Lol since when has the girlfriend comment beem used to show Sakura's love for Naruto. Its used to show Naruto still likes Sakura and to put to rest the arguements by NH about him not loving her anymore. As for the cpr its not romantic but did Kishi need to put it in? Think about that. This late in the game its obvious which pairing he is pushing for canon, not saying its canon already.


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## Super Chief (Feb 18, 2014)

emachina said:


> Considering this thread is 23 pages long, and the biggest NaruSaku scenes for the past 200 chapters that fans have pointed to as undeniable "proof" involve Sakura punching Naruto after he answered Minato's question and then the big make out scene people technically call CPR, I'm inclined to believe NaruSaku is far from canon. I seriously do not get the NaruSaku argument. The only thing Sakura has come close to punching as many times as she has Naruto, is the ground. How is that "proof" of love?



When is the last time you've read the manga? Sakura hasn't punched Naruto in a very, very long time. The last woman to hit Naruto was his mother, about a 100 chapters ago.

The NaruSaku argument has much more weight and basis to it than any other couple in the series. Refer to my previous post for said argument.


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I can't say I really agree fully with either of your views on the matter of that scene, LadyOfHubris or SoulFire. I think you go too far in making it out to be a highly significant scene LoB and making it out as a serious romantic advance on Sakura's part. On the other hand, denying it as flirtatious at all on Sakura's end is something I can't really agree with. For as much as chip tried to push that Sakura's expression is not sensual based on a different panel where Sakura's face is somewhat alike but is facing down when talking to a young girl, which ignores context and by that same token throws several NH and probably also SS arguments out the window as they are based on pointing out specific expressions, Sakura's expression is fairly clearly sensual. Her doing some slight flirting with Naruto wouldn't mean that she is suddenly in love with him, they are both hormonal teenagers here and even male-female friendships that never go beyond that and neither party wants it to go beyond that will in most cases have some flirting.
> 
> Its a nice NS scene in that it shows them growing ever more comfortable with the other but its not a major advancement, just one of the many scenes for the pairing that make it much more believable and natural than the other two. Admitting it for what it is doesn't mean accepting NS as canon but I'm used to anything about the pairing being vehemently denied as not having any meaning and/or existing.


 
  I'm not making that scene out to be a large romantic advancement from Sakura. That's not my point of debating that. My point is because people are brushing it off as Sakura teasing Naruto about him not being able to feed himself when that's really not the case. Context clues, Sakura's expression and everything about that scene suggests that she's being a tad bit flirty as well as thoughtful to someone important to her; not that she is being a tease and picking on Naruto about his temporary disability.

People believe what they want to believe. 

I have given logical proof that makes sense as to why I believe certain things and backed it up afterwards, and I'm dipping out. Heck, even if Sakura were to ever say she was being flirty herself, people still wouldn't believe it.



			
				Corvida said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Just no.
> 
> Kakashi and Sakura are sharing a little moment ABOUT A THIRD PARTY. Naruto.Their expressions end in a "haha, litle they know him just you wait". That?s not only reassurance, it?s expectation. The moment between Naruto and Hinata is strictly about themselves, includes, at least gratefulnes and if you are not able to see gentleness in a handsqueeze......


 
I don't see gentleness in that hand squeeze. How someone can see something that hasn't been animated yet and only shows several motions line, I don't know.  I will surmise that it was more of a strong, confident hand squeeze rather than just a gentle, "romantic" one. Something like that wouldn't fit the context of them being in war and the camaraderie wrapped around the message. 

The point of the smile comparison was to show the nature everything and how Naruto has not shown any type of development towards Hinata except that of Camaraderie. Their smiles are similar because Sakura is giving Kakashi that in her confidence in Naruto's ability. 

Naruto is giving Hinata that same smile in his confidence in himself and her as a comrade. On top of that, the idea that Hinata reflects on this moment and is able to garner confidence from it and attack with more vigor is proof of what Naruto's smile did to her: it gave her confidence and that's all I think Naruto's smile was meant to be as well as do.

A confident smile.

That is the point I'm making.


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## Kurama (Feb 18, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> It think it's all but confirmed that NaruSaku are canon now, barring Sakura dying to save Naruto which would leave Hinata by default really.
> 
> That being said though, I'll just repost my thoughts on NaruSaku VS NaruHina from tumblr.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure I already crushed this but Tumblr mobile ate my reblog.

There a bigass hole in your argument. Sakura wasn't going to kill Sasuke for Naruto. She was going to kill Sasuke for Sasuke, to prevent his further plummet into darkness, because she loves him. She knew it was likely Naruto would HATE her for that, buy she didn't.care. Her fake confession was her desperate effort to relieve her own guilt at what she felt was having burdened Naruto with the task of retrieving Sasuke. It was her way of getting him off of Sasuke's trail and avoiding telling him of the Rookies decision to deal with him themselves. I think its rather ridiculous to claim this scene as great for NS romance when it forces Sakura into a relationship with someone she does not love and  you don't even know if she'd truly go through with it. The entire scenario is contrived as fuck as it ignores that Sakura knows full damn well Naruto isn't chasing Sasuke solely because of the promise as she explained Naruto's bond to Sasuke herself in the Penis Arc. The biggest point to be taken from it is despite Naruto's achieved greatness and Sasuke's darkness Sakura still loves the latter and Naruto was not only matter of factly convinced of that but even dependent on which only serves to make the idea of him intending to pursue Sakura ridiculous.


This foolish idea that "sacrificing happiness" =romantic love needs to stop. Naruto's happiness never lied in Sakura reciprocating his feelings, his "sacrifice" comes off the realization that her feelings for Sasuke grew stronger while he was too busy being the hero if the story to focus on his own for her. Sakura's "sacrifice" is brought on my guilt, desperation and treating his "love" as a burden and without even the guarantee that she'd go through with the LIE if he believed her. That's trash compared to the developments between Naruto and Hinata where she's shown a repeat willingness to give her LIFE for his own, him acknowledging her presence at his side and his actual warm reception towards her affections. To try to brush this off as "just reassurance and confidence" is being senselessly biased.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

I gotta say this because some of the posts I've been reading have just been... just no..
Nothing is canon until the series ends. Naruto could get with Hinata, and near the end they break up and he dates fucking Ino, and NaruIno would be canon. Nothing is canon until the end. 
Ok? .-. So saying "These characters disagree" is irrelevant lmao.


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## emachina (Feb 18, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> When is the last time you've read the manga? Sakura hasn't punched Naruto in a very, very long time. The last woman to hit Naruto was his mother, about a 100 chapters ago.
> 
> The NaruSaku argument has much more weight and basis to it than any other couple in the series. Refer to my previous post for said argument.





IRT, five minutes. Woot Sakura's self control!

As for the "CPR" and "Minato question"  being as used as proof, they might not have been used in this thread as proof, but they were plenty of times used in other threads.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

I wouldn't say 5 minutes, I'd say about an hour at the most, but still your point still stands emachina. 
She has no problem putting Naruto in his place. 
I want some from everyone.
Do you guys think it's necessary to argue the CPR anymore? As a medic nin, it's her job. Case closed.
Do you think it's necessary to argue the handhold? I don't really. It's been beaten like a dead horse, as well as the GF comment.
I think we should wait until next chapter and pick up from then .-. 
Agree? Disagree? Either way, I'll be back when the chapter is out.


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Exactly! What about the Hyuugas huh? What about Hinata's history?! *Sigh* I suppose I shouldn't complain. No Hyuuga's a main character. I should be happy Hinata gets as much as she does.
> 
> 
> Only laughing twice a year. What a sad life that would be


I appreciate the muffins Kishi gives me.
FINE!....15 times a year >u> 

I know...the pain kinda went a way, I think it's cause I ate cheerios...but I can't be too sure.


Super Chief said:


> *I don?t see this level of devotion between Naruto and Hinata. They?re friends, sure, but it would be a stretch to say they are particularly close friends.* Their relationship certainly is nowhere near that of Naruto and Sakura.



I don't know how you could possibly think Naruto doesn't care deeply for Hinata.
Heres just one example showing how he clearly cares deeply for her: pein battle  I honestly don't think Naruto caring deeply for Hinata is something that needs to be argued. Sakura cares deeply for Naruto and Naruto cares deeply for Hinata...it's just fact. I also have no idea how you could say they aren't close friends...all their momens in the war arc show how close they are. Are two people who are able to read each other just by looking at each the others eyes, not close people who clearly understand each other on a deep level? Argue the romantic nature sure...but for anyone to say they're not close...that just doesn't make sense homie O__O


Kurama said:


> That's trash compared to the developments between Naruto and Hinata where she's shown a repeat willingness to give her LIFE for his own, him acknowledging her presence at his side and his actual warm reception towards her affections. To try to brush this off as "*just reassurance and confidence*" is being senselessly biased.


 I still don't understand this....I don't see how anyone could see it as just that. He knows Hinata loves him, and is holding her hand, how that could not show him showing incredible positive reception towards her romantic feelings. I just...don't get it ⊙▃⊙


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## ch1p (Feb 18, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I don't see gentleness in that hand squeeze.



You might say it's not romantic, but there is gentleness. He doesn't have a shit eating grin as it's his regular confident smile.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

Naruto has a smile that usually shows sincerity... Ya know, like one that doesn't have mischief in his eye?

Oh.. One of those smiles kind of like this one..
Naruto smiling around Hinata


See when Naruto is around Sakura, if he's smiling, it's a giant smile, eyes closed, hand behind his head smile. It looks uncomfortable. Like "Oh I hope she doesn't get mad." That's just the feeling I get.
The one around Hinata is more comfortable. Like he has nothing to worry about. IDK, I just feel like the latter is more sincere. A little less childish and more relaxed.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> What do you mean why? If she loves Naruto why wouldn't she have a reaction? Would you not have a reaction knowing that someone else loves the same person you do? The fact that she hasn't been shown to have a jealous reaction seems pretty big to me.


You are arguing why wouldn't she have a reaction when her facial expression *is* a telling reaction. You are basically arguing that she should have a negative/jealous reaction to the knowledge while blowing off the fact that her facial expression can be interpreted as a form of a negative reaction due to you subscribing to a different but just as valid interpretation. Its circular logic, you take her "lack of a negative reaction" as proof of her not having any feelings for Naruto while writing off her sad reaction as meaning something else even though its highly ambiguous and therefore has many valid interpretations. You are using your own bias in brushing off those interpretations of her expression that put it as negative towards Hinata's feelings for Naruto to then add fuel to your belief that she doesn't have feelings for Naruto.

Thats ignoring the fact that given context it would be entirely out of place for Sakura to have a jealous reaction to the knowledge. She is thinking this while healing a near death Hinata who just risked her life trying to save Naruto and yet you think Sakura should be whispering in her ear "I appreciate what you did for Naruto but hes mine bitch, go near him and I'll cut you.". Obviously thats an exaggeration but I feel its appropriate given your lack of context consideration. Also by that same merit Hinata should totally have had a jealous/negative reaction to Sakura hugging Naruto after he came back. Her facial expression should have totally put across these thoughts: "That should be *ME* up there hugging Naruto! *I* was the one who jumped out to save him and almost died! *HOW DARE THAT PINK HAIRED HUSSIE TOUCH MY MAN!*" Though I suppose Hinata's "..." is concrete proof of her jealousy or she is totally "in the know" that she thinks of him as "just a friend" and that she is only in "tru love" with Sasuke for ever and ever. Shes just so convinced of her "little engine that could" strategy that it doesn't matter that Naruto likes Sakura or that shes hugging him. 

Then there is the matter of that it ignores that Sakura at that time and likely still now hadn't/hasn't worked out her feelings entirely. 

The idea that she is thinking of her own love for Sasuke, while possible, I don't think is really plausible. If that was the reason you would think Kishi would give an indication, maybe put a flashback picture of Sasuke behind her in the panel similar to 540 or have her mention his name. Instead what we have is a large part of the panel being taken up by a smiling, standing proud picture of Naruto. I also don't really see a connection between the two "loves" that would make Sakura think of her own outside of the plain connection of "a girl in love". Naruto hasn't gone dark and left the village and Sakura has no way of knowing for sure that Naruto won't return her feelings like Sasuke didn't return hers. If there was a very solid basis for thinking that her sad expression was due to thinking about Sasuke(especially just a straight confirmation), I would honestly say that would have been a rather big blow to NS's chances while being a boon to to NH's/SS's. It would have established a strong duality. That is not the case however.


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

Its a smile of great appreciation, its not romantic, he is not blushing and I dont think Hinata was either and that just shows you how its not a romantic thing and romance at that moment would be do out of context. Then again we all have different eyes that are biased towards our ships.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Its a smile of great appreciation, its not romantic, he is not blushing and I dont think Hinata was either and that just shows you how its not a romantic thing and romance at that moment would be do out of context. Then again we all have different eyes that are biased towards our ships.



._. talk about uncalled for.
I didn't say it was 'romantic' I said it was comfortable. I love how words are inserted into my mouth and pulled back out though.

OH. And blushing isn't always romantic. And you don't always have to blush to like someone .-. the fuck...?


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## Kage (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> What do you mean why? If she loves Naruto why wouldn't she have a reaction? Would you not have a reaction knowing that someone else loves the same person you do? The fact that she hasn't been shown to have a jealous reaction seems pretty big to me.



Exactly that. Why bother reacting *at all* if Naruto's love life doesn't concern her? Don't get me wrong because I'm not really convinced it's suppose to be hinting at deeper feelings. I just don't think it's meant to subtly push NH either.

oh...WPK did a much better job with this response lol.

*EDIT:*




MichaelInsanity said:


> See when Naruto is around Sakura, if he's smiling, it's a giant smile, eyes closed, hand behind his head smile. It looks uncomfortable. Like "Oh I hope she doesn't get mad." That's just the feeling I get.
> The one around Hinata is more comfortable. Like he has nothing to worry about. IDK, I just feel like the latter is more sincere. A little less childish and more relaxed.



Not really...Naruto smiles a lot, is very generous with them in fact. Most of his big smiles are his most carefree so throwing Hinata one more subdued isn't all that special in itself and it certainly hasn't been noted to be different particularly for or around her. Unlike Sai commenting on Naruto smiling a lot around Sakura, making no mention of it being uncomfortable but rather something that hints at a fondness for her.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 18, 2014)

What the hell at some of you. Calling canon already?

This is a debate thread for a reason.

Sheesh.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> What the hell at some of you. Calling canon already?
> 
> This is a debate thread for a reason.
> 
> Sheesh.



 
I can't even... It's not even ok.


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You might say it's not romantic, but there is gentleness. He doesn't have a shit eating grin as it's his regular confident smile.



You're talking about the smile. I'm talking about the hand squeeze and that's what me and the person that I replied to were discussing. The smile has no gentleness to it. Like I said, if that were the case, then Sakura's smile to Kakashi is gentle too.

His smile radiates confidence and assurance. Nothing romantic or gentle about that, honestly. That is what Hinata is got from that moment and that is what the reader _should_ get from that moment because that is the overall message, but it's being mistaken for a tender "romantic" moment.

EDIT

Besides, if this were such a special moment, Kishimoto basically took a shit on this "special" moment by reiterating chapters later that Naruto still has lingering feelings for Sakura. So, why we are still discussing the hand-hold and everything subsequent to that? I have no clue because it's irrelevant at this point.

Not to mention that it was Sakura who Kishimoto chose to accompany Naruto on his death bed and it will most likely be Sakura that he wakes up to when he is brought back. So, again, how is everything subsequent to this relevant at this point?


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## ch1p (Feb 18, 2014)

Naiki said:


> You're talking about the smile. I'm talking about the hand squeeze and that's what me and the person that I replied to were discussing.



The smile and the hand squeeze came together as a package.



> The smile has no gentleness to it. Like I said, if that were the case, then Sakura's smile to Kakashi is gentle too.



So what if it is?



> Besides, if this were such a special moment, Kishimoto basically took a shit on this "special" moment by reiterating chapters later that Naruto still has lingering feelings for Sakura.



Actually, the smile and the hand squeeze came _after_ the supposed confirmation of his feelings.



> So, why we are still discussing the hand-hold and everything subsequent to that? I have no clue because it's irrelevant at this point.



It's as relevant as wondering if Sakura is falling in love with Naruto when she implied, one day before, that she loved Sasuke and him only.



> Not to mention that it was Sakura who Kishimoto chose to accompany Naruto on his death bed and it will most likely be Sakura that he wakes up to when he is brought back. So, again, how is everything subsequent to this relevant at this point?



I don't see how Sakura preventing Naruto dying and is there when he wakes up is meant to disqualify anything, when it wasn't even portrayed in a romantic light. SasuSaku isn't canon since chapter 33 either and that one was portrayed romantically, twice.


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it is my interpretation XD and I've never said it's 100% valid. I asked for opinions because I wanted to see other interpretations to see if others might've felt the same way :3 

See I don't think we've been shown either Sakura or Hinata having jealous reactions, because I don't think either of them has felt jealous. I don't see how that moment with Hinata could show Sakura being jealous and acknowledging how much Hinata loves Naruto...while then having the hug she gave to Naruto right after being "romantic". That to me paints Sakura in a bad light, but I of course don't think it was that way. lol Hinata XD little engine that could!? Now I'm imagining Hinata as a train o___o

lol I still don't get how Sakura has not worked out her feelings  like...what is so confusing? What would be a mental barrier to stop her from loving Naruto if she truly does? She already has all the reasons in her head as to why she should love Naruto...but doesn't. I don't see Sakura trying to figure anything out...she knows what her feelings are and Naruto knows what they are. So ya...just have no idea what Sakura could still be contemplating in her head??

The way I interpreted was from me trying to put myself in Sakura's mind and how seeing Hinata do this out of her love for Naruto would cause her mind to drift to Sasuke. I feel like theres a pretty obvious connection from understanding loving someone so much you'd be willing to do anything for them(even killing them >.>) and also understanding how it feels to see the person you love in such a desperate situation. I think it's certainly possible, it makes sense to me (∪ ◡ ∪). Not enough evidence to say that it _absolutely_ happened though, I'd never say that. 


Kage said:


> Exactly that. Why bother reacting *at all* if Naruto's love life doesn't concern her? Don't get me wrong because I'm not really convinced it's suppose to be hinting at deeper feelings. I just don't think it's meant to subtly push NH either.
> 
> oh...WPK did a much better job with this response lol.


I just see it as Sakura being able to connect with Hinata on loving someone so much you're willing to do anything for them :3

Well...it was definitely longer too XD....I'm supposed to be doing hw (╥﹏╥) lol


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The smile and the hand squeeze came together as a package.



Yes, but obviously, they are too different actions. On top of that, this "package" wasn't gentle. It was confident. 




> So what if it is?



That would be out of context and nonsensical. Giving your sensei a gentle smile when everyone else is doubting the third party, including your sensei? Nah. That doesn't fit. Giving your sensei a confindant smile (similar to the one Naruto gives Hinata) when everyone is doubting the third party.

Yeah, that makes more sense and actually fits with the context. 




> Actually, the smile and the hand squeeze came _after_ the supposed confirmation of his feelings.



Yes, but it's a flashback to an event previous to that. Or did you forget? 




> It's as relevant as wondering if Sakura is falling in love with Naruto when she implied, *one day before*, that she loved Sasuke and him only.



And you have the knowledge of it being one day from where? 

The only thing that was implied in that scene is that the "love" that Sakura feels for Sasuke, it certainly isn't as strong as you might want it to be. She clearly isn't pleased with Sasuke and there is depression and doubt written all over her face when she thinks of Sasuke. Her feelings for Naruto, whatever they might be, are stronger that's for certain. Her recent actions lately prove that.

For a girl that "loves" this guy so much, she certainly hasn't been concerned for his well-being throughout this war and she definitely hasn't thought about him since he showed up. She has only thought about one person: and it isn't the person that you claim that she "only loves". 




> I don't see how Sakura preventing Naruto dying and is there when he wakes up is meant to disqualify anything, when it wasn't even portrayed in a romantic light. SasuSaku isn't canon since chapter 33 either and that one was portrayed romantically, twice.



It's not even that. It's the idea that it was Sakura out of the three most qualified people on the battlefield that was chosen to be by Naruto's side. Tsunade so happened to be out of chakra, Shizune as well, and Hinata fell on her face. Not to mention the fact that Sakura was performing healing jutsu just as long as Tsunade was and she ran out of chakra before Sakura did, supposedly. Prior to that, Sakura was even in medical tents performing medical ninjutsu on patients. 

I think that this is foreshadowing of more NS development to come and soon, I think. 

Don't forget that the rest of the development after that two measly moments were all negative, so I don't get how you can patch up the negativity surrounding this pairing with _two insignificant, *unrequited* instances from part one_.


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## Corvida (Feb 18, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I'
> 
> 
> I don't see gentleness in that hand squeeze. How someone can see something that hasn't been animated yet and only shows several motions line, I don't know.[



The same exact way you see bedroom eyes and flirting  in a -rare-affectionate moment from Sakura to Naruto in the infamous feeding scene. Becasue, blinders off, the squeeze was afectionate.Because you?re conveniently skipping  the whole bunch of pages that came before, what Hinata did and what Naruto was saying before and during said squeezing..

,


> I will surmise that it was more of a strong, confident hand squeeze rather than just a gentle, "romantic" one. Something like that wouldn't fit the context of them being in war and the camaraderie wrapped around the message.
> 
> 
> The point of the smile comparison was to show the nature everything and how Naruto has not shown any type of development towards Hinata except that of Camaraderie. Their smiles are similar because Sakura is giving Kakashi that in her confidence in Naruto's ability.
> ...




 Exactly -About the two of them -not about t third party, I repeat again.
And there?s where your point falls flat as a flounder fish even witht he constant repetition of "camaraderie". Even not taking romance into consideration, this was not the typical pat in the back scene.

Hinata has just saved  our hero from the brink of giving in to despair.

This was the rare case, the second case in the manga as a matter of fact, in which it was crippingly  shy Hinata the one to restore the Messiah morale and morals and not the other way around. And this situation had been a little more serious that the time Naruto was feeling "uncharacteristically depressed" before fighting genius Neji.

Are you still trying to compare the smile of complicity between Kakashi and Sakura, and about a third person , not evenabout each other,  to the smile Naruto dedicates to Hinata after  THANKING HER  again?

This was not the typical "Naruto boost Hinata?s confidence",they?ve had had an scen like that not so long before, when Naruto indeed reminded her she was stronger thatn she tought- as the contrary just had happened. This is the smile Naruto used to close his despair moment.. 

That was not only a confident smile

It was a grateful and appreciative smile, too..

handsqueeze included.


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

Corvida said:


> The same exact way you see bedroom eyes and flirting  in a -rare-affectionate moment from Sakura to Naruto in the infamous feeding scene. *Becasue, blinders off, the squeeze was afectionate.Because you?re conveniently skipping  the whole bunch of pages that came before, what Hinata did and what Naruto was saying before and during said squeezing.*.



Affectionate in a: 'Cheer up, we're going to get through this. Just stay strong!' type of way, then yes. It was affectionate in a way that comrades can be towards each other and that's what Hinata took from it, which explains the purpose of her flashback and the courage she gathered from that. 

Obviously, you're the one skipping the messages of those very same pages that you're speaking of. The messages behind everything that went on with the hand holding and the smile was based off of camaraderie. 

{x} If you'd read the speech that Hinata gives, you will see that this is what the message of the chapter is. The will to die for others is what connects people together as comrades and it connects their lives as one. 

{x}

Neji then states that Hinata is ready to die for Naruto, just as any comrade would do, and Naruto comes to the realization that his life isn't his own anymore because people were wiling to die for him and he thinks about his parents, the Hokage, and the other people in his life that died for him and to protect the village as well. 

^ That was just as they were getting ready to hold hands. So, how that rings as romantic? I don't know. It was even then that he squeezes her hand. It was in a way of camaraderie, not romance.

{x}

That is all I need to say about the matter. If you still want to believe that Naruto's smile, 'which there really wasn't in the "Connected" chapter, it was really just Hinata thinking of Naruto's confident smile directed towards her, then go ahead.

I've given my proof and my interpretation that makes the most sense to me, so go ahead.


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## ch1p (Feb 18, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Yes, but obviously, they are too different actions.



That is irrelevant. They were both done with the same sentiment. Naruto's body parts are not schizophrenic.



> On top of that, this "package" wasn't gentle. It was confident.



This is what you see. What I see is that Naruto usually has a shit eating grin when he's confident, and this is none of the sort.

In fact, Naruto is usually quite subdued around Hinata. He's not as obnoxious like towards Sakura, Sasuke, Kakashi, etc etc. That should tell you something, because it shows a difference in how he perceives these people. I'm not saying this acknowledgement is necessarily romantic, but it is different from the norm for Naruto's character and it's going to be noticeable for the reader who is paying attention. Yet, you refuse to accept this difference.



> That would be out of context and nonsensical. Giving your sensei a gentle smile when everyone else is doubting the third party, including your sensei? Nah. That doesn't fit. Giving your sensei a confindant smile (similar to the one Naruto gives Hinata) when everyone is doubting the third party.
> 
> Yeah, that makes more sense and actually fits with the context.



You are comparing smiles between two different people. Sakura smiling at someone like that is not the same as Naruto smiling at someone like that. Kishimoto may be very lazy in terms of general structure, but he has his differences (Naruto's trademark smile is the grin, not this smile). Plus, you're assuming that Kishimoto still draws things with the same sentiment as ten years or so ago. Art evolution and whether he even remembers Sakura used to smile like this should also be taken into account.

You are also comparing smiles between two different situations. One of them is between teacher and student about the other student's abilities that only they know and everyone else doubts. The other is between a love interest and the object of said affections, after going through a traumatic experience, being inspired up by that person and then thanking that person. Context plays its part.



> Yes, but it's a flashback to an event prior to that. Or did you forget?



I don't remember? ... Didn't you receive some prize for good behaviour before? Why are you being passive aggressive?

It doesn't matter if it's a flashback. After all, the Sai flashback to Naruto thinking about Naruto commenting on not being able to keep his promises preceded the NaruHina confession and it's still being used as evidence of his feelings afterwards.



> And you have the knowledge of it being one day from where?



 Click contents so you can see the list of things.



> The only thing that was implied in that scene is that the "love" that Sakura feels for Sasuke, it certainly isn't as strong as her feelings for Naruto that's for certain. Her recent actions lately prove that.



No. 'I already have someone I like.' is one person. 'I'm sure that person is great.' is one person. Consequently thinking of Sasuke alone is also one person.

Whether her feelings for Naruto are stronger or is irrelevant, because they are not romantic. My feelings for my best friend are stronger than the ones for my boyfriend. It still doesn't want to make me date my best friend.



> For a girl that "loves" this guy so much, she certainly hasn't been concerned for his well-being throughout this war and she definitely hasn't thought about him since he showed up. She has only thought about one person: and it isn't the person that you claim that she "only loves".



She has thought about him and she is worried about him as well. It may not be over his well being, but it's not like she knows he's hurt. Sakura is concentrated on Naruto ATM because she's aware he needs her the most. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about others.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Kishimoto is going to avoid the choice, because that's not what Sakura's character is about. It's about protecting her teammates (both of them). She's eventually going to protect Sasuke as well, whatever that entails, whether with romantic feelings attached or not. That doesn't mean SS is canon either.



> It's not even that. It's the idea that it was Sakura out of the three most qualified medic-nin on the battlefield that was chosen to be by Naruto's side. Tsunade so happened to be out of chakra, Shizune as well, and Hinata fell on her face. Not to mention the fact that Sakura was performing healing jutsu just as long as Tsunade was and she ran out of chakra before Sakura did, supposedly.



Sakura's supposedly the main character, not Tsunade or Shizune. It's also part of her character goals to protect Naruto, maybe Tsunade's (which is about seeing him become Hokage and she has done this in her own arc on part 1) but certainly not Shizune's.



> If that doesn't set things up for more NS development, I don't know what does.



How?

It's not like Naruto doesn't already value Sakura, regardless of she saving his life or not (this sounds like a bad anti NS argument), this situation changes nothing whatsoever. On the other hand, we already knew Sakura was up to protect Naruto in any way she could, as that's her goal in the first place. This is just, you know, the culmination of the foreshadowing.

If you mean romantic development, this situation wasn't romantic.



> Don't forget that the rest of the development after that two measly moments were all negative, so I don't get how you can patch up the negativity surrounding this pairing with _two insignificant, *unrequited* instances from part one_.



It doesn't matter if they're positive or negative, it's Sasuke she loves and not Naruto.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

emachina said:


> Considering this thread is 23 pages long, and the biggest NaruSaku scenes for the past 200 chapters that fans have pointed to as undeniable "proof" involve Sakura punching Naruto after he answered Minato's question and then the big make out scene people technically call CPR, I'm inclined to believe NaruSaku is far from canon. I seriously do not get the NaruSaku argument. The only thing Sakura has come close to punching as many times as she has Naruto, is the ground. How is that "proof" of love?



How do tsundere?

Come on, no one seriously tries to use that against NS because it's far too common in other cannon shounen pairings.



MichaelInsanity said:


> See when Naruto is around Sakura, if he's smiling, it's a giant smile, eyes closed, hand behind his head smile. It looks uncomfortable. Like "Oh I hope she doesn't get mad." That's just the feeling I get.
> The one around Hinata is more comfortable. Like he has nothing to worry about. IDK, I just feel like the latter is more sincere. A little less childish and more relaxed.



Ok I know this probably isn't allowed but this 'point' is absolutely fucking hilarious in combination with your sig.
[sp=for the lazy][/sp]


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 18, 2014)

And yet that scene with the smile and handholding happened  before Naruto told Minato how he considers Sakura to be "more or less" his girlfriend....so it was not romantic on Naruto's part.  Otherwise, he would not be telling Minato how he thinks of Sakura (Hinata being within earshot) and showing jealousy when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her in chapter 632!


I swear....is that hard to realize that Naruto's gesture was not meant to be romantic, but thankful?  Much like his "I like people like you" line way back in part I !

Not saying NS is endgame, just that at this time Naruto does NOT have romantic feelings for Hinata.


Edit: Naruto even gave Sakura a genuine smile (with a close up panel of that smile) when Sakura confronted him about how she is a disciple of Tsunade and how she wants to take part in the fight (last pages of chapter 631).


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That is irrelevant. They were both done with the same sentiment. Naruto's body parts are not schizophrenic.



But is body parts aren't a package of gentleness either. He is expressing confidence, as well as a bit of gratitude to Hinata for being by his side and willing to die. 



> This is what you see. What I see is that Naruto usually has a shit eating grin when he's confident, and this is none of the sort.



It's funny. Sai pointed out that Naruto smiles a whole lot around Sakura and immediately surmised that he liked her which Naruto confirmed by saying he couldn't tell her his feelings because he was somebody that couldn't keep his promises to her. It was that confident "smile" that you claim is different than what he gives to Hinata that re-confirms his feelings for Sakura. 




> *In fact, Naruto is usually quite subdued around Hinata. He's not as obnoxious like towards Sakura, Sasuke, Kakashi, etc etc.* That should tell you something, because it shows a difference in how he perceives these people. I'm not saying this acknowledgement is necessarily romantic, but it is different from the norm for Naruto's character and it's going to be noticeable for the reader who is paying attention. Yet, you refuse to accept this difference.



Naruto being subdued isn't really a good thing that equals that his feelings for Hinata are different in any way. Naruto is known to be a boisterous person and a bit of a showy person. Naruto's ability to be obnoxious around his teammates shows that he is able to be himself because that is who he is as a person. 

I can speculate that he isn't like that around Hinata because, first of all, she is a very subdued person herself. Not only that, but I don't look at his attitude around Hinata as that, but awkward. You have to remember that "weird and gloomy" was Naruto's first impression about Hinata so I can assume that he wasn't and still might not be used to socializing with quiet, shy types like Hinata and it's awkward for him.

Naruto being "subdued" certainly isn't a good thing since he's not himself which is: loud, bubbly, and hyperactive. 




> You are comparing smiles between two different people. Sakura smiling at someone like that is not the same as Naruto smiling at someone like that. Kishimoto may be very lazy in terms of general structure, but he has his differences (Naruto's trademark smile is the grin, not this smile). Plus, you're assuming that Kishimoto still draws things with the same sentiment as ten years or so ago. Art evolution and whether he even remembers Sakura used to smile like this should also be taken into account.
> 
> You are also comparing smiles between two different situations. One of them is between teacher and student about the other student's abilities that only they know and everyone else doubts. The other is between a love interest and the object of said affections, after going through a traumatic experience, being inspired up by that person and then thanking that person. Context plays its part.




No one is suggested that. Both of those situations are themes of expressing confidence in something or someone. Sakura expressing confidence in Naruto and Naruto expressing confidence in Hinata with a bit of gratitude. I don't see anything wrong with that comparison because they both have the same themes. 




> I don't remember? ... Didn't you receive some prize for good behaviour before? Why are you being passive aggressive?
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's a flashback. After all, the Sai flashback to Naruto thinking about Naruto commenting on not being able to keep his promises preceded the NaruHina confession and it's still being used as evidence of his feelings afterwards.



Well, what am I to expect from someone that I almost got in trouble with before? 

It does matter if it's a flashback. Not to mention that the confession was entirely Hinata --> Naruto, so how was the confession a threat to the re-confirmation of Naruto's feelings that was the Sai flashback? The same can be said for the girlfriend comment and the hand-hold. The hand-hold was not a threat to NS again because that event was based off of camaraderie and then there was another re-confirmation of Naruto's love after the hand-hold. 




> Click contents so you can see the list of things.



You do know that Wikipedia is not a credible source and that website is peer-edited, right? 




> *No. 'I already have someone I like.' is one person. 'I'm sure that person is great.' is one person. Consequently thinking of Sasuke alone is also one person.*
> 
> Whether her feelings for Naruto are stronger or is irrelevant, because they are not romantic. My feelings for my best friend are stronger than the ones for my boyfriend. It still doesn't want to make me date my best friend.



In the bold, no.

They are all one person and they all equal up to Sasuke. 

Her feelings for Naruto are not irrelevant, whether romantic or not because the strength of her feelings for Naruto over Sasuke is significant and it can also be the positive push that drives Sasuke to completely get over Sasuke. Sakura sees what a wonderful person Naruto and seeing how Sasuke is in comparison can push her to fall out of love with him. 

Her feelings for Naruto is definitely significant and it says a lot about the supposed love that she has for Sasuke. Her love for Sasuke can't be that strong if she hasn't thought of him since he arrived or been concerned for his safety in a positive manner.




> She has thought about him and she is worried about him as well. It may not be over his well being, but it's not like she knows he's hurt. Sakura is concentrated on Naruto ATM because she's aware he needs her the most. That doesn't mean she doesn't care about others.



The first one is invalid since it only shows a small panel of her onlooking with a pensive expression. The second one doesn't display any manner of concern or worry for his safety at all. The only thing that panel rings across is that she is weary of Sasuke's plans, she doesn't trust him, but she attempts to mask it with a false smile. 



> I've said this before, I'll say it again. Kishimoto is going to avoid the choice, because that's not what Sakura's character is about. It's about protecting her teammates (both of them). She's eventually going to protect Sasuke as well, whatever that entails, whether with romantic feelings attached or not. That doesn't mean SS is canon either.



In case you didn't notice, even if there was a choice, I personally think she would pick Naruto over Sasuke any day because, as I said, I think her feelings for Naruto are stronger. You might be right about there not being a choice down the line, but we won't know until the end.



> Sakura's supposedly the main character, not Tsunade or Shizune. It's also part of her character goals to protect Naruto, maybe Tsunade's (which is about seeing him become Hokage and she has done this in her own arc on part 1) but certainly not Shizune's.



It's everyone's job to protect Naruto. That is the purpose of the war: Protect Naruto and Killer Bee.  





> How?
> 
> It's not like Naruto doesn't already value Sakura, regardless of she saving his life or not (this sounds like a bad anti NS argument), this situation changes nothing whatsoever. On the other hand, we already knew Sakura was up to protect Naruto in any way she could, as that's her goal in the first place. This is just, you know, the culmination of the foreshadowing.
> 
> If you mean romantic development, this situation wasn't romantic.



Like I said, it sets up for positive development between them, not that is *IS* positive development. 





> It doesn't matter if they're positive or negative, it's Sasuke she loves and not Naruto.



But, it could be her stronger feelings for Naruto and how she sees him in a better light that draws her away from Sasuke.


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## Naiki (Feb 18, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> And yet that scene with the smile and handholding happened  before Naruto told Minato how he considers Sakura to be "more or less" his girlfriend....so it was not romantic on Naruto's part.  Otherwise, he would not be telling Minato what he thinks of Sakura with Hinata being within earshot and showing jealousy when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her in chapter 632!
> 
> 
> I swear....is that hard to realize that Naruto's gesture was not meant to be romantic?  Much like his "I like people like you" line way back in part I !
> ...




People just want their ship to sail, I guess. 

Even if the wind isn't exactly blowing.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This is what you see. What I see is that Naruto usually has a shit eating grin when he's confident, and this is none of the sort.



I don't really care about this argument, but Naruto never whips out his shit eating grin in battle, so jumping on the fact he didn't this time is a little meaningless to me.


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## ch1p (Feb 18, 2014)

^Naruto isn't fighting Hinata for that kind of comparison to fit.



Fruits Basket Fan said:


> And yet that scene with the smile and handholding happened  before Naruto told Minato how he considers Sakura to be "more or less" his girlfriend...



NaruHina getting this sort of moments, where Hinata is shown to be supportive and essential to Naruto, sets off potential for more later. On the other hand, NaruSaku went through all this, but Sakura didn't fall in love with Naruto and still loves Sasuke and only him. Whatever potential it may have had, it's gone.

As it stands, Sakura is quite aware of Naruto, but she doesn't love him. On the other hand, Naruto is only now becoming aware of Hinata (it started with the confession and it's been building since then).

Until NaruHina gets the NaruSaku equivalent of Iron Country, then its fine as it is. Until NaruSaku is built up again like NaruHina was, then it's over for the pairing. I'm not saying either of these can't happen though.



> Edit: Hell, he even gave Sakura a genuine smile (with a close up panel of that smile) when Sakura confronted him about how she is a disciple of Tsunade and how she wants to take part in the fight.



After he told her to go to the kitchen, smiling was the least he could do, no offence.



Naiki said:


> But is body parts aren't a package of gentleness either. He is expressing confidence, as well as a bit of gratitude to Hinata for being by his side and willing to die.



Once more, that's your opinion. Naruto expresses confidence by grinning. He doesn't do that after thanking people, smiling softly and squeezing their hands. Did he do that like this towards other people?



> It's funny. Sai pointed out that Naruto smiles a whole lot around Sakura and immediately surmised that he liked her which Naruto confirmed by saying he couldn't tell her his feelings because he was somebody that couldn't keep his promises to her. It was that confident "smile" that you claim is different than what he gives to Hinata that re-confirms his feelings for Sakura.



I don't see how that is of any importance, because while it's true people smile a lot around the people they like, Naruto has smiled a lot around Hinata as well. The type of smile was never commented upon by Sai.



> Naruto being subdued isn't really a good thing that equals that his feelings for Hinata are different in any way. Naruto is known to be a boisterous person and a bit of a showy person. Naruto's ability to be obnoxious around his teammates shows that he is able to be himself because that is who he is as a person.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Naruto being "subdued" certainly isn't a good thing since he's not himself which is: loud, bubbly, and hyperactive.



Whether it's good or bad for Naruto is irrelevant as that's a matter of opinion. I could very well say that someone who pacifies Naruto easily is good for him, because he's always so extreme. Since he can be obnoxous towards everyone else in his life, this doesn't stop him from being himself.

The point here is that Naruto treats Hinata differently than he treats everyone else. That, including people he knows well and doesn't know well. He was completely obnoxious around B even though he didn't know him. He was oboxious towards Kushina before he knew she was his mother as well. Those are just two examples.



> I can speculate that he isn't like that around Hinata because, first of all, she is a very subdued person herself. Not only that, but I don't look at his attitude around Hinata as that, but awkward. You have to remember that "weird and gloomy" was Naruto's first impression about Hinata so I can assume that he wasn't and still might not be used to socializing with quiet, shy types like Hinata and it's awkward for him.



So is the smile awkward or is it confident? The two things, awkwardly confident smile?

Regardless of exactly what he feels, what you're saying is not actually bad at all. It shows Naruto is aware of Hinata's personality and quirks, and is sensitive to them. What other character is Naruto sensitive towards, besides _Sakura's issues with Sasuke_ (not with Tsunade, not with her confidence issues, but just Sasuke)? Naruto being tactful around Hinata is quite nice for the pairing actually.



> No one is suggested that. Both of those situations are themes of expressing confidence in something or someone. Sakura expressing confidence in Naruto and Naruto expressing confidence in Hinata with a bit of gratitude. I don't see anything wrong with that comparison because they both have the same themes.



But it is a very wrong comparision. You are dismissing the Sakura smile was made over twelve years ago, that Sakura smiling is not the same as another character smiling, and lastly the context of Sakura and Naruto's respective smile.



> Well, what am I to expect from someone that I almost got in trouble with before?



You are flying off the handle unprovoked.



> It does matter if it's a flashback. Not to mention that the confession was entirely Hinata --> Naruto, so how was the confession a threat to the re-confirmation of Naruto's feelings that was the Sai flashback? The same can be said for the girlfriend comment and the hand-hold. The hand-hold was not a threat to NS again because that event was based off of camaraderie and then there was another re-confirmation of Naruto's love after the hand-hold.



This was an argument back in the day. Naruto didn't comment on getting in Sakura's pants since that moment until 631, which was around 300 chapters. NH was wrong (?) about saying Naruto was moving on from Sakura, but NS stating over and over again that a flashback that preceded it held any value to prove that argument false was the exact same situation as this one you're defending.



> You do know that Wikipedia is not a credible source and that website is peer-edited, right?



Of course I don't know this. 

What I mean is that the manga shows that day - night - day - night cycle, which is correctly noticed in that wikipedia page (and everywhere else in the forums).

You can disprove this claim quite easily btw. Tell me where in the manga is stated that the time elapsed is more than that cycle.

Then you can tell me Sakura is going to change the nature of her feelings that she has had for over 10 years, through being apart for over 1/3 of this lenght, through losing faith in him as well, literally from one day to the other.



> In the bold, no. They are all one person and they all equal up to Sasuke.[



Why would Sakura say 'I already have someone I like' if she liked two people. Why would Sakura think of Sasuke in darkness when the fodder ninja told her that he must be a good person? If she was in love with Naruto, she would have thought of Naruto, since he is a good person after all. She could have thought of both, but she did not. Only Sasuke. It's only she whom he loves. Literally a day before this moment in the manga.



> Her feelings for Naruto are not irrelevant, whether romantic or not because the strength of her feelings for Naruto over Sasuke is significant and it can also be the positive push that drives Sasuke to completely get over Sasuke.



That's enough of a push at all. Just because you consider someone your best friend / precious to you doesn't mean you want to get into their pants. It's certainly not the way the manga portrays romantic relationships.

Tsunade had her team since they were very young children, but it wasn't with either of them that she kindled love with. It was with someone she met at an assembly as an adult. Konan had two childhood friends, but only loved one of them. Rin was more friendly towards Obito and still loved Kakashi. Minato watched Kushina from afar for years. On the other hand, Kushina fell for Minato the moment he did something that impressed her, not over companionship.

You can say NaruSaku would brake this mould though, but that's not possible either and this is why:



> Sakura sees what a wonderful person Naruto and seeing how Sasuke is in comparison can push her to fall out of love with him.



Sakura was already aware of all of this about Naruto before Iron Country arc and that didn't make her fall in love with him.

I'm going to ask you something I always ask NaruSaku fans. What can possibly be the game changer for Sakura. She's been through _everything_ she could possibly have and still loves Sasuke and not Naruto. Sasuke became scum and she still loved him. Naruto became the golden hero and she still didn't love him. This is important here. What can possibly happen that will change this?



> Her feelings for Naruto is definitely significant and it says a lot about the supposed love that she has for Sasuke. Her love for Sasuke can't be that strong if she hasn't thought of him since he arrived or been concerned for his safety in a positive manner.
> 
> The first one is invalid since it only shows a small panel of her onlooking with a pensive expression. The second one doesn't display any manner of concern or worry for his safety at all. The only thing that panel rings across is that she is weary of Sasuke's plans, she doesn't trust him, but she attempts to mask it with a false smile.
> 
> ...



She thought of him postively. That is a positive smile.

It doesn't matter if she thought of Sasuke negatively and Naruto positively. As we're aware, we've already been through this in Iron Country, and it didn't change anything. Sakura loves Sasuke, despite the negatives, and she doesn't love Naruto, despite the positives.



> In case you didn't notice, even if there was a choice, I personally think she would pick Naruto over Sasuke any day because, as I said, I think her feelings for Naruto are stronger. You might be right about there not being a choice down the line, but we won't know until the end.



In case I didn't notice. ...

I don't agree Sakura will chose nor do I believe these thoughts should be entertained. Sakura's goal is not this choice. To expect her to, when she is not, is just wish fullfilment. And irrelevant for what we're discussing. I'd save my mother over my boyfriend. It doesn't mean I want to date my mother. The same for my best friend actually.



> It's everyone's job to protect Naruto. That is the purpose of the war: Protect Naruto and Killer Bee.



It's not their life goal, contrarily to Sakura. Such a thing wouldn't bring resolution to their character, contrarily to Sakura.



> Like I said, it sets up for positive development between them, not that is *IS* positive development.



The same can be said about NaruHina and the hand hold then.


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## emachina (Feb 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> How do tsundere?
> 
> Come on, no one seriously tries to use that against NS because it's far too common in other cannon shounen pairings.



Tsundere only works when the guy on the receiving end deserves the punishment. Like when Tenten has to calm Lee down in Rock Lee SD, or like when Tsunade beat Jiraiya for peeping. Naruto gets punched for saving the village or answering a questions his zombie dad asks him.

Sakura is a horribly done tsundere character, she's become protective and respectful towards Lee after he saved her life, Naruto has saved her life numerous times, but he still get whomped. Trying to play the tsundere trap card doesn't work.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

ch1p said:


> ^Naruto isn't fighting Hinata for that kind of comparison to fit.



Come on ch1p, they are in the 4th shinobi war. I never claimed Naruto was fighting Hinata and I don't know why anyone would think that.



emachina said:


> Tsundere only works when the guy on the receiving end deserves the punishment. Like when Tenten has to calm Lee down in Rock Lee SD, or like when Tsunade beat Jiraiya for peeping. Naruto gets punched for saving the village or answering a questions his zombie dad asks him.



There are many different types of tsunderes;


Now you may only like it in your above scenarios, however it's clear that Sakura hitting Naruto is generally comic relief.



> Sakura is a horribly done tsundere character, she's become protective and respectful towards Lee after he saved her life, Naruto has saved her life numerous times, but he still get whomped. Trying to play the tsundere trap card doesn't work.



This falls down when anyone can see that Naruto and Sakura are closer than Lee and Sakura.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 18, 2014)

@ch1p: Wrong.  He let her come into the fight.


And again why are you bringng up Sakura-->Naruto when I never stated she is in love with him!

I only stated that Naruto loves Sakura not Hinata, nothing more and less, even after Hinata's actions. And much like how you believe so long as Sakura does not love Naruto it will not go anywhere; the same applies for NH so long as Naruto loves Sakura (which Naruto has reaffirmed in chapter 631).

Come on, now.  You should know better than that since we had this talk before ....


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## kidloco (Feb 18, 2014)

lol hinata

and just stalking, I know my pairing already.. or harem 

and is funny only see the punch but not the hug , beside, that punch is because she was worrie for him

and beside, dint learn about love can be pain full sometimes? or dint know people like that? 

I refr a girl who punch me and later hug me to a stalker who said to me she love me and later nothing anout her like if was a bad joke... somebody never did something from him for 10 years mostly when need the most? 

I refer one who begun to dislike me to later be friend to a best friend to a lover to stalker who never did something and later think with her "talk and boobs" can get him in her legs?? oh lol

he... I think I need to leave.. before I lost my bus.... see ya XD



(im masokista so love girls with temper XD)


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

I think it's trying to speak to us .-. No seriously, please check your grammar before posting, it can save you a lot of trouble. I couldn't understand anything you were saying ._.


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## Scila9 (Feb 18, 2014)

I...  think I understood a little of that. I think it's against da rulez



> • Do not insert your own morals ​​or *personal experiences* to argue a point outside of the manga's context. The Naruto manga is the only thing that matters.





> I want soo bad some good spanking right now :giggle


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I...  think I understood a little of that. I think it's against da rulez



My thought's exactly .-. I didn't know this was story time


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> There are many different types of tsunderes;
> 
> 
> Now you may only like it in your above scenarios, however it's clear that Sakura hitting Naruto is generally comic relief.


I think the whole Sakura tsundere thing would work better if when Naruto makes comments like that, instead of just straight up being pissed like always, there'd be side indications that the idea makes her feel embarrassed and nervous, to indicate she had some hidden feelings she had trouble dealing with. Instead we just get Sakura outright rejecting those situations. 

Sakura definitely has many of those cliche tsundere traits...but I don't see how the way she acts in the manga supports her having hidden feelings for Naruto.

The argument that because Sakura is a tsundere and in many Shounens the main character ends up with the tsundere, Naruto and Sakura will be together, is one I hate. The characters and context are individual, just because it's happened one way in other mangas doesn't mean it'll happen in this one.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I think the whole Sakura tsundere thing would work better if when Naruto makes comments like that, instead of just straight up being pissed like always, there'd be side indications that the idea makes her feel embarrassed and nervous, to indicate she had some hidden feelings she had trouble dealing with. Instead we just get Sakura outright rejecting those situations.



*Naruto makes comment about Sakura being his girlfriend*
*Sakura blushes and proceeds to hit Naruto*
*Pairing war is pretty much over*.

Do you see why your situation would just give everything away?



> Sakura definitely has many of those cliche tsundere traits...but I don't see how the way she acts in the manga supports her having hidden feelings for Naruto.



Different issue tbh, I was just saying Sakura is pretty classic tsundere.

As far as her feelings go I have to take the path of least resistance, if I'm faced with lots of unlikely outcomes then I must choose the one I consider the least unlikely. I don't think we're going to see much development on the pairing front outside of canonization either, Kishi is running out of time.



> The argument that because Sakura is a tsundere and in many Shounens the main character ends up with the tsundere, Naruto and Sakura will be together, is one I hate. The characters and context are individual, just because it's happened one way in other mangas doesn't mean it'll happen in this one.



I tend to agree, if we're arguing tropes then there are much easier ways to argue for NS (namely main character gets the chick he's continued to want for 600 chapters). Parallels also tend to be very trope-based and can fit in here too.


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

NS may not be canon but NH's development is done, there is no place left for it to go other than friendship. 

Hinata while running towards Naruto said she would hold his hand, she does but it didnt go anywhere beyond friendship. Now she sees Naruto dying she runs towards him but doesnt make it, she isnt a medic but if NH was going to be getting anymore development romantic-wise she would at least been there. They were at the end of friendship development during the hand holding thing but thats where it stayed and isnt going to move forward.

No matter what happens with Sasuke, Sakura and Naruto NH is not going to be canon based on what is going on currently, there is no time.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

The series isn't over, therefore the pairing war isn't over.
Saying CPR and headbutting someone is development is downright insane if you ask me, but we all have interpretations, so let's not assume who's right until the end. Ok?


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> *Naruto makes comment about Sakura being his girlfriend*
> *Sakura blushes and proceeds to hit Naruto*
> *Pairing war is pretty much over*.
> 
> Do you see why your situation would just give everything away?


Of course it would be Thats what makes the classical tsundere getting with the guy so obvious, because writers will do that and you just roll your eyes and know, "ugh, of course she loves him." This isn't the case with how Kishimoto writes Sakura. Which is why I don't see how the argument works, she's not written as a tsundere _with_ hidden romantic affections. 


Mr Horrible said:


> Different issue tbh, I was just saying Sakura is pretty classic tsundere.


She seems like a pretty mellow version. Her violent reactions and what-not aren't very common. It comes out sometimes though really only when Kishimoto wants to add a joke.


Mr Horrible said:


> As far as her feelings go I have to take the path of least resistance, if I'm faced with lots of unlikely outcomes then I must choose the one I consider the least unlikely. I don't think we're going to see much development on the pairing front outside of canonization either, Kishi is running out of time.
> 
> I tend to agree, if we're arguing tropes then there are much easier ways to argue for NS (namely main character gets the chick he's continued to want for 600 chapters). Parallels also tend to be very trope-based and can fit in here too.


Oh so Naruto is the path with the least resistance to make happen for you? I could see that, except for the great amount of resistance there would be to make Sakura stop loving Sasuke. The manga is ending soon(whatever that means...1..2 years?), but I'm sure Kishimoto will do at least an _OK_ job at developing things better XD

Tropes are not something I find worth arguing really, nor parallels. If the story itself can't support the pairings then imo the pairing is badly written. I'd like to think everyone would rather discuss the actual story thank such things (;? ロ?)?


PAWS said:


> NS may not be canon but NH's development is done, there is no place left for it to go other than friendship.
> 
> Hinata while running towards Naruto said she would hold his hand, she does but it didnt go anywhere beyond friendship. Now she sees Naruto dying she runs towards him but doesnt make it, she isnt a medic but if NH was going to be getting anymore development romantic-wise she would at least been there. They were at the end of friendship development during the hand holding thing but thats where it stayed and isnt going to move forward.
> 
> No matter what happens with Sasuke, Sakura and Naruto NH is not going to be canon based on what is going on currently.


Don't see why you think that? Wouldn't seem to make much sense for their development to stop there. Especially when she talks about _after_ the war too. Seems obvious they'll have further developments. Just because HInata isn't with Naruto now, doesn't mean she won't be later in the war and after the war. She doesn't just disappear off the naruplanet cause she isn't on panel XD


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Don't see why you think that? Wouldn't seem to make much sense for their development to stop there. Especially when she talks about _after_ the war too. Seems obvious they'll have further developments. Just because HInata isn't with Naruto now, doesn't mean she won't be later in the war and after the war. She doesn't just disappear off the naruplanet cause she isn't on panel XD



She says herself after the war she will stop, she has already held his hand and it didnt change anything, it didnt push the relationship forward to a romantic thing. Well after the war is coming and no romantic development has happened so she is going to stop. 

I am not saying "Oh Sakura is there not Hinata CANON", just the fact that when shikamaru was dying she said she wanted to help Naruto too no romantic intake on her part there and then when she is running  as he is dying she doesnt speak about how much she loves Naruto, she has finally accepted Naruto's friendship.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

The war isn't even over and you're assuming it's over based upon..... what exactly?
Nothing.


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

PAWS said:


> She says herself after the war she will stop, she has already held his hand and it didnt change anything, it didnt push the relationship forward to a romantic thing. Well after the war is coming and no romantic development has happened so she is going to stop.
> 
> I am not saying "Oh Sakura is there not Hinata CANON", just the fact that when shikamaru was dying she said she wanted to help Naruto too no romantic intake on her part there and then when she is running  as he is dying she doesnt speak about how much she loves Naruto, she has finally accepted Naruto's friendship.


Ok. I'm not going to debate this, cause we just disagree on such basic things. I'll just accept this is your view.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Of course it would be Thats what makes the classical tsundere getting with the guy so obvious, because writers will do that and you just roll your eyes and know, "ugh, of course she loves him." This isn't the case with how Kishimoto writes Sakura. Which is why I don't see how the argument works, she's not written as a tsundere _with_ hidden romantic affections.



Seems like you're shifting the goalposts to "Sakura is a tsundere with hidden romantic affections" rather than "Sakura is a tsundere".



> She seems like a pretty mellow version. Her violent reactions and what-not aren't very common. It comes out sometimes though really only when Kishimoto wants to add a joke.



Pretty much, but it's still in that range. It's also why I think it's a bit silly for people to hold Sakura hitting Naruto against NS, it's pretty clearly comic relief that isn't meant to be taken seriously.



> Oh so Naruto is the path with the least resistance to make happen for you? I could see that, except for the great amount of resistance there would be to make Sakura stop loving Sasuke. The manga is ending soon(whatever that means...1..2 years?), but I'm sure Kishimoto will do at least an _OK_ job at developing things better XD



But we've already seen quite the change in Sakura's impression of Sasuke, when Sakura->Sasuke gets brought up in the manga it's been pretty dark for the past 3 or so occurrences. I'm still _very_ curious to see what becomes of Sakura faking the smile to Sai, that seems rather important to me.

I can't see the manga going past 2 years, pretty much all that is left is beating Madara, Naruto vs Sasuke and Naruto becoming Hokage.



> Tropes are not something I find worth arguing really, nor parallels. If the story itself can't support the pairings then imo the pairing is badly written. I'd like to think everyone would rather discuss the actual story thank such things (;? ロ?)?



The thing is Kishi does love his parallels though, between Team 7/Sannin, Naruto often acting like Minato (but having a personality that seems very similar to Kushina's), Naruto vs Sasuke/Hashi vs Madara/Younger son vs Older son. So when NaruSaku has so many similarities to the only canon romance that we've actually seen on panel (MinaKushi) and we have one of those parties actually remarking on the similarities, that should be considered a strong hint, at least in my opinion.


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> The war isn't even over and you're assuming it's over based upon..... what exactly?
> Nothing.



Its based on what has been shown throughout the manga. I am giving you a logical statement based on what has been shown. I am not saying NS is going to be canon but just that NH has no chance at this point. 



LesExit said:


> Ok. I'm not going to debate this, cause we just disagree on such basic things. I'll just accept this is your view.



ok.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 18, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Its based on what has been shown throughout the manga. I am giving you a logical statement based on what has been shown. I am not saying NS is going to be canon but just that *NH has no chance at this point. *



Based upon what?
Literally I could be an ass and bring back the failed confession, but that wouldn't do much because it's still somehow debated that she actually loves him, even though her motives were seen through by Naruto and everyone else.
Look, you can't claim something as done and over with until the manga is done and over with.
We'll see next chapter. At the moment though, I doubt there is any room for romance with Naruto half DEAD.


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## PAWS (Feb 18, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Based upon what?
> Literally I could be an ass and bring back the failed confession, but that wouldn't do much because it's still somehow debated that she actually loves him, even though her motives were seen through by Naruto and everyone else.
> Look, you can't claim something as done and over with until the manga is done and over with.
> We'll see next chapter. At the moment though, I doubt there is any room for romance with Naruto half DEAD.



I am not trying to be ass, I am just saying based on the things that have happened so far NH is not going to be canon and we are not talking about NS right now.


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## LesExit (Feb 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Seems like you're shifting the goalposts to "Sakura is a tsundere with hidden romantic affections" rather than "Sakura is a tsundere".


Well I never said she wasn't, she fits many of the traits. A girl being a tsundere type character doesn't always means she has hidden romantic feelings. Sakura seems to fit that. 


Mr Horrible said:


> Pretty much, but it's still in that range. It's also why I think it's a bit silly for people to hold Sakura hitting Naruto against NS, it's pretty clearly comic relief that isn't meant to be taken seriously.


I do think it's in the range too. Like all the "abuse" comments you mean XD? Ya...thats silly. Sakura's a nice girl ( ･ω･)


Mr Horrible said:


> But we've already seen quite the change in Sakura's impression of Sasuke, when Sakura->Sasuke gets brought up in the manga it's been pretty dark for the past 3 or so occurrences. I'm still _very_ curious to see what becomes of Sakura faking the smile to Sai, that seems rather important to me.
> 
> I can't see the manga going past 2 years, pretty much all that is left is beating Madara, Naruto vs Sasuke and Naruto becoming Hokage.


Metoo! :33 I'm really glad we got that though, cause with the way Kishi had Team 7's reunion, and having them act like nothing bad had happened between them confused me. I'm glad to see that Sakura doesn't fully trust Sasuke , I'm sure she still loves him, but trust no...as she shouldn't o___o Sakura still doesn't know the truth about the Konoha and that stuff about Itachi like Naruto does. She's pretty much in the dark about everything and Sasuke hasn't made his motives very clear to anyone. So as those things get more cleared up we'll see what happens I guess.

I'm still iffy on how the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight will go down
We don't know if Naruto will become Hokage >u> Sasuke might hehehe... I kinda don't even want anyone to be Hokage though .__.
I'd say 2 years is a good estimate.


Mr Horrible said:


> The thing is Kishi does love his parallels though, between Team 7/Sannin, Naruto often acting like Minato (but having a personality that seems very similar to Kushina's), Naruto vs Sasuke/Hashi vs Madara/Younger son vs Older son. So when NaruSaku has so many similarities to the only canon romance that we've actually seen on panel (MinaKushi) and we have one of those parties actually remarking on the similarities, that should be considered a strong hint, at least in my opinion.


I just like to focus on the actual characters in the pairings, since parallels can be used to support many pairings. They have there place though of course :3


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Metoo! :33 I'm really glad we got that though, cause with the way Kishi had Team 7's reunion, and having them act like nothing bad had happened between them confused me. I'm glad to see that Sakura doesn't fully trust Sasuke , I'm sure she still loves him, but trust no...as she shouldn't o___o



So you don't think that's in any way an indicator of what's going to happen?

But yeah, Sasuke just being welcomed back would be utter bullshit.



> Sakura still doesn't know the truth about the Konoha and that stuff about Itachi like Naruto does. She's pretty much in the dark about everything and Sasuke hasn't made his motives very clear to anyone. So as those things get more cleared up we'll see what happens I guess.



Lol, what exactly changes if Sakura finds out the truth behind the Uchiha Massacre? The only thing that has bearing on was Sasuke vs Danzo and Sasuke has done far worse than that. You think Sakura finding out the truth will change her view on Sasuke joining an organisation to kill Naruto? How about him trying to off Team 7 a good 3 times each now? That slash through Naruto in Team 7 seems pretty foreboding to me as well.

Naruto knows the truth and the *only* thing he trusts Sasuke to do right now is fight him before going after Konoha. 



> I'm still iffy on how the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight will go down
> We don't know if Naruto will become Hokage >u> Sasuke might hehehe... I kinda don't even want anyone to be Hokage though .__.



It's about as certain that Naruto becomes Hokage as it is that Sasuke is redeemed.



> I'd say 2 years is a good estimate.



I'd give it 1.5



> I just like to focus on the actual characters in the pairings, since parallels can be used to support many pairings. They have there place though of course :3



Not well though, the only parallel SS tries to use is Tsunade/Dan which simply falls down, there's also Rin/Kakashi I guess but good luck there. NH tries to get in on MinaKushi but I thought most people with a brain realized that was a crapshoot even before Minato made his comment about Sakura. It's actually NS that has a couple of legitimate parallels (with only one being explicitly referenced in-panel though). There's Jiraiya/Tsunade, Obito/Rin and MinaKushi that spring to mind for NS and all of them are pretty easily defensible. Of those MinaKushi is the strongest as it's an actual canon romance as well as there being a lot of panels to support it. People did bitch about the NS parallel with MinaKushi but after Minato's comment that has mostly died down.

So let's be honest here; if we have three potential pairings and only one of them resembles a canon romantic relationship (MinaKushi), is that not a strong indicator of which pairing will be likely canon?


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## emachina (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> There's Jiraiya/Tsunade, Obito/Rin and MinaKushi that spring to mind for NS and all of them are pretty easily defensible. Of those MinaKushi is the strongest as it's an actual canon romance as well as there being a lot of panels to support it. People did bitch about the NS parallel with MinaKushi but after Minato's comment that has mostly died down.
> 
> So let's be honest here; if we have three potential pairings and only one of them resembles a canon romantic relationship (MinaKushi), is that not a strong indicator of which pairing will be likely canon?



How is MinaKushi a parallel for NaruSaku? Let's see, there's a loud brazen Uzumaki whose seen as an outcast by the other kids, who thinks her unknown love interest is weird. Then there's Minato, whose kind of shy and a bit of a stalker who jumps in and fights to save Kushina from ninjas trying to kidnap her because they want the Kyuubi!

HOW THE HELL IS THAT NARUSAKU!? Someone tell me!


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## LesExit (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> So you don't think that's in any way an indicator of what's going to happen?
> 
> But yeah, Sasuke just being welcomed back would be utter bullshit.


I don't see it as an indicator of Sakura not loving Sasuke anymore. It's a clear indicator that Sakura doesn't trust him still, and that Sasuke's motives are unclear. I don't know how things will change when his motives become more clear, I don't know his full motives. 


Mr Horrible said:


> Lol, what exactly changes if Sakura finds out the truth behind the Uchiha Massacre? The only thing that has bearing on was Sasuke vs Danzo and Sasuke has done far worse than that. You think Sakura finding out the truth will change her view on Sasuke joining an organisation to kill Naruto? How about him trying to off Team 7 a good 3 times each now? That slash through Naruto in Team 7 seems pretty foreboding to me as well.
> 
> Naruto knows the truth and the *only* thing he trusts Sasuke to do right now is fight him before going after Konoha.


Of course it will change things .Because she'll know that Sasuke wasn't just insane and evil, but actually had justified reasons for being incredibly angry towards Konoha. Knowing the truth behind the massacre is what helped Naruto understand Sasuke's views and actions, why wouldn't it do the same with Sakura? It does, still not sure what it means. Does it mean he wants to kill Naruto, does he think that Naruto shouldn't be the one to change things but him? I don't know. 




Mr Horrible said:


> It's about as certain that Naruto becomes Hokage as it is that Sasuke is redeemed.
> 
> I'd give it 1.5


I don't know... I think the entire shinobi world will go through some major changes. I feel like there might be a new type of leadership made. I also am liking the idea of Naruto being Hokage less and less...doesn't even seem like his thing...

I think I'd give it more, 2 average. Just cause last time Kishimoto talked about the manga ending soon...it went on much longer than people thought. 


Mr Horrible said:


> Not well though, the only parallel SS tries to use is Tsunade/Dan which simply falls down, there's also Rin/Kakashi I guess but good luck there. NH tries to get in on MinaKushi but I thought most people with a brain realized that was a crapshoot even before Minato made his comment about Sakura. It's actually NS that has a couple of legitimate parallels (with only one being explicitly referenced in-panel though). There's Jiraiya/Tsunade, Obito/Rin and MinaKushi that spring to mind for NS and all of them are pretty easily defensible. Of those MinaKushi is the strongest as it's an actual canon romance as well as there being a lot of panels to support it. People did bitch about the NS parallel with MinaKushi but after Minato's comment that has mostly died down.
> 
> So let's be honest here; if we have three potential pairings and only one of them resembles a canon romantic relationship (MinaKushi), is that not a strong indicator of which pairing will be likely canon?


I've never heard of SS using Tsunade/Dan? How does that work XD? I thought there was that Yahiko/Konan one for SS, but it parallels in positive and negative ways. 
You can use one pairings for multiple pairings. 
I think MinaKushi can parallel NS and NH, Theres the tsundere thing, sacrifice thing, then theres the whole Naruto's like Kushina so KushiKushi nonsense...it gets so messy and ridiculous XD
Thats why I don't use it as strong indicators of much, they can get so unclear. I get guess you take them more seriously and thats fine, I just don't D:


emachina said:


> How is MinaKushi a parallel for NaruSaku? Let's see, there's a loud brazen Uzumaki whose seen as an outcast by the other kids, who thinks her unknown love interest is weird. Then there's Minato, whose kind of shy and a bit of a stalker who jumps in and fights to save Kushina from ninjas trying to kidnap her because they want the Kyuubi!
> 
> HOW THE HELL IS THAT NARUSAKU!? Someone tell me!


Well I guess people might separate the pairings itself, along with their own context, and compare the individual characters maybe? I don't know...
I don't like parallels XD


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

Let's get one thing straight; Naruto has both parts of his mother and father. Personality wise he is more like Kushina however ever since roughly the Invasion of Konoha arc forward, he's been highly reminiscent of Minato in his actions. So either way works, however all the parallels in the manga we have seen have been people of the same gender.

Anyway Sakura is quite similar to Kushina in some ways (with some obvious differences though); they both had a physical feature they disliked as a child (inc Sasuke(Naruto) and Minato), they are both quite violent, especially with Naruto, there's the whole 'getting saved bridal style by Naruto/Minato as well'. Now this may have still been ambiguous without Minato's comment about Sakura reminding him of Kushina. 

Finally let's not forget Kushina's last words to Naruto "find a woman like me". No matter how you cut it Hinata does not fit that profile as you're comparing her to Minato.



LesExit said:


> I don't see it as an indicator of Sakura not loving Sasuke anymore. It's a clear indicator that Sakura doesn't trust him still, and that Sasuke's motives are unclear. I don't know how things will change when his motives become more clear, I don't know his full motives.



The other pairings simply don't have these issues and it's a lot of the reason why _no one_ really gives SS a chance.



> Of course it will change things .Because she'll know that Sasuke wasn't just insane and evil, but actually had justified reasons for being incredibly angry towards Konoha. Knowing the truth behind the massacre is what helped Naruto understand Sasuke's views and actions, why wouldn't it do the same with Sakura? It does, still not sure what it means. Does it mean he wants to kill Naruto, does he think that Naruto shouldn't be the one to change things but him? I don't know.



Nah Sasuke was insane and evil, the manga pointed that out several times (e.g. his face when stabbing Karin). And Danzo/Elders is not the same thing as Konoha, especially Naruto who has tried to help Sasuke all this time. We've already seen Sasuke try to dismiss Naruto only for Sakura to get angry at him.

In terms of understanding Sasuke, Naruto>>>Sakura, this reflects the bond between Naruto and Sasuke being significantly stronger (read; present) than the one between Sakura and Sasuke.

I personally think a slash is quite emotive and seems to be leading to Sasuke wanting to kill Naruto. It'd also make the final fight actually mean something other than Naruto and Sasuke sparring.



> I don't know... I think the entire shinobi world will go through some major changes. I feel like there might be a new type of leadership made. I also am liking the idea of Naruto being Hokage less and less...doesn't even seem like his thing...



And yet the manga seems to have made it come down to Naruto vs Sasuke for the role of Hokage and all the rookies are like 'fuck Sasuke, we want Naruto'.



> I've never heard of SS using Tsunade/Dan? How does that work XD?



About as well as you seem to think .



> I thought there was that Yahiko/Konan one for SS, but it parallels in positive and negative ways.



Well that and Yahiko being far more like Naruto than they are like Sasuke . That being said they were all Jiraiya's students so Naruto 'gets' both Yahiko and Nagato.



> I think MinaKushi can parallel NS and NH, Theres the tsundere thing, sacrifice thing, then theres the whole Naruto's like Kushina so KushiKushi nonsense...it gets so messy and ridiculous XD



I believe I addressed this earlier, but Naruto has a lot of similarities with both his parents. 



> Thats why I don't use it as strong indicators of much, they can get so unclear. I get guess you take them more seriously and thats fine, I just don't D:



They got a lot more clear after Minato's words. If that didn't happen I wouldn't bring them up mostly.



> Well I guess people might separate the pairings itself, along with their own context, and compare the individual characters maybe? I don't know...
> I don't like parallels XD



People have done that over and over in this thread, sometimes I feel like a bit of change. People might not like parallels but Kishi's story is full of them.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Come on ch1p, they are in the 4th shinobi war. I never claimed Naruto was fighting Hinata and I don't know why anyone would think that.



Naruto has used that shit eating grin while fighting other people. I remember when I used to be a huge Nardo fangirl, I do remember all these things.



Fruits Basket Fan said:


> @ch1p: Wrong.  *He let her* come into the fight.



The fact that you phrased it this way. 

It doesn't matter if 'he let her' after she said she said she wasn't going to do what he said. The established fact here is that he told her to stay in the kitchen at first. That truly shows how little he understands of Sakura's problems except for Sasuke. The least Naruto could do after going for the thing she has most issues with would be to smile and 'let her'.



> And again why are you bringng up Sakura-->Naruto when I never stated she is in love with him!



That's true. I was speaking most for those who do.



> I only stated that Naruto loves Sakura not Hinata, nothing more and less, even after Hinata's actions.



Naruto's not going to fall in love with Hinata just because she confessed to him or slapped him into sense. These things are not made at the drop of a hat. Hinata has steadily grown in Naruto's front. He could very well be interested when things settle down after the war. Like I said, until NH has their equivalent Iron Country, its in the clear.



kidloco said:


> and beside, dint learn about love can be pain full sometimes? or dint know people like that? ohh.. I want soo bad some good spanking right now :giggle



Some anti narusaku fans have that type of view. I do not. Sakura hits Naruto for comic relief, no need to make serious business out of it, end of the story.



> I refr a girl who punch me and later hug me to a stalker who said to me she love me and later nothing anout her like if was a bad joke... somebody never did something from him for 10 years mostly when need the most?
> 
> I refer one who begun to dislike me to later be friend to a best friend to a lover to stalker who never did something and later think with her "talk and boobs" can get him in her legs?? oh lol
> 
> ...



You're not Naruto, your ex isn't Sakura, and your stalker isn't Hinata.



Mr Horrible said:


> Do you see why your situation would just give everything away?



This is the worse excuse ever. It can used by rival pairings as well. For example, why didn't Naruto reject Hinata right away after the confession.



> Different issue tbh, I was just saying Sakura is pretty classic tsundere.



The classic tsundere she may be, but the classic tsundere doesn't necessarily mean romantic feelings either.

I've heard she fits another thing altogether, but I don't care to discuss character roles like this.



> As far as her feelings go I have to take the path of least resistance, if I'm faced with lots of unlikely outcomes then I must choose the one I consider the least unlikely. I don't think we're going to see much development on the pairing front outside of canonization either, Kishi is running out of time.



The path of least resistance is letting the status quo as it is, not make NS canon.



PAWS said:


> NS may not be canon but NH's development is done, there is no place left for it to go other than friendship.



"It's over breh, NaruHina's development is over, go back to part 1." I remember when I personally said this when Hinata went on the Itachi Pursuit squad and nothing happened for NaruHina.



> Hinata while running towards Naruto said she would hold his hand, she does but it didnt go anywhere beyond friendship.



Hinata said she was going to be by his side forever.



> Now she sees Naruto dying she runs towards him but doesnt make it, she isnt a medic but if NH was going to be getting anymore development romantic-wise she would at least been there.



For what reason?



PAWS said:


> She says herself after the war she will stop, she has already held his hand and it didnt change anything, it didnt push the relationship forward to a romantic thing. Well after the war is coming and no romantic development has happened so she is going to stop.



The phrase didn't stop there. She said she'd stop chasing her because she was going to stand by his side from now on.



> I am not saying "Oh Sakura is there not Hinata CANON", just the fact that when shikamaru was dying she said she wanted to help Naruto too no romantic intake on her part there and then when she is running  as he is dying she doesnt speak about how much she loves Naruto, she has finally accepted Naruto's friendship.



Hinata can help in many ways. She doesn't need to be Naruto's doctor.



emachina said:


> How is MinaKushi a parallel for NaruSaku? Let's see, there's a loud brazen Uzumaki whose seen as an outcast by the other kids, *who thinks her unknown love interest is weird*. Then there's Minato, whose kind of shy and a bit of a stalker *who jumps in and fights to save Kushina from ninjas* trying to kidnap her because they want the Kyuubi! HOW THE HELL IS THAT NARUSAKU!? Someone tell me!



It's not very hard to figure out actually. Much like you put it into words to obviously fit NaruHina, the NaruSaku fandom can do the same to fit into NaruSaku.



Mr Horrible said:


> Let's get one thing straight; Naruto has both parts of his mother and father. Personality wise he is more like Kushina however ever since roughly the Invasion of Konoha arc forward, he's been highly reminiscent of Minato in his actions. So either way works, however all the parallels in the manga we have seen have been people of the same gender.
> 
> Anyway Sakura is quite similar to Kushina in some ways (with some obvious differences though); they both had a physical feature they disliked as a child (inc Sasuke(Naruto) and Minato), they are both quite violent, especially with Naruto, there's the whole 'getting saved bridal style by Naruto/Minato as well'. Now this may have still been ambiguous without Minato's comment about Sakura reminding him of Kushina.
> 
> Finally let's not forget Kushina's last words to Naruto "find a woman like me". No matter how you cut it Hinata does not fit that profile as you're comparing her to Minato.



*sigh*

You're not being any better than the other poster.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Naruto has used that shit eating grin while fighting other people. I remember when I used to be a huge Nardo fangirl, I do remember all these things.



I'm going to need a link here, Naruto gets serious pretty quickly.

The fact that you phrased it this way. 



> This is the worse excuse ever. It can used by rival pairings as well. For example, why didn't Naruto reject Hinata right away after the confession.



Yeah, I knew that when I typed it >.<, however it was in response to someone's personal dislike of how Sakura was written there if NS is to become canon, I'm not really good with that sort of stuff .



> The classic tsundere she may be, but the classic tsundere doesn't necessarily mean romantic feelings either.



Certainly, I was just replying to someone who said Sakura hitting Naruto invalidates moments that come before (or after).



> I've heard she fits another thing altogether, but I don't care to discuss character roles like this.



Hmm, really? I wouldn't mind having a link to an alternative interpretation of her character type although I'm going to guess it's common in a medium other than shounen.



> The path of least resistance is letting the status quo as it is, not make NS canon.



Not when Kishi has messed around with the pairings this much (and Kushina's words to Naruto are pretty big for some sort of pairing in the end too).

"It's over breh, NaruHina's development is over, go back to part 1." I remember when I personally said this when Hinata went on the Itachi Pursuit squad and nothing happened for NaruHina.



> *sigh*
> 
> You're not being any better than the other poster.



Fair enough. Minato commented that Sakura was similar to Kushina, is that direct enough for you?


----------



## Tom Servo (Feb 19, 2014)

emachina said:


> How is MinaKushi a parallel for NaruSaku? Let's see, there's a loud brazen Uzumaki whose seen as an outcast by the other kids, who thinks her unknown love interest is weird. Then there's Minato, whose kind of shy and a bit of a stalker who jumps in and fights to save Kushina from ninjas trying to kidnap her because they want the Kyuubi!
> 
> HOW THE HELL IS THAT NARUSAKU!? Someone tell me!



She was hotheaded and didn't like Minato when he was younger because as she said it in her own words she was simply an immature girl back then. She was made fun of by bullies because of her red hair (like Sakura was of her forehead) something that both Minato and Naruto like. Minato says himself that Sakura acts alot like Kushina.

There's so much evidence flat out given that its ridiculous.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> I'm going to need a link here, Naruto gets serious pretty quickly.



while looking for it vs Kiba, found the one where he mocks Sasuke.
since we were talking about sakura's smile before, there's vs Kiba, another, my boy nardo 

Okay the manga is out. i'm too excited. if you want more examples I'll give it to you later.



> The fact that you phrased it this way.



you repeating me is  a typo or?



> Yeah, I knew that when I typed it >.<, however it was in response to someone's personal dislike of how Sakura was written there if NS is to become canon, I'm not really good with that sort of stuff .
> 
> Certainly, I was just replying to someone who said Sakura hitting Naruto invalidates moments that come before (or after).



Fair enough. I actually enjoy the dynamics, even if I don't ship them.



> Hmm, really? I wouldn't mind having a link to an alternative interpretation of her character type although I'm going to guess it's common in a medium other than shounen.



A . The format between character roles is the same as the Tsundere. I believe there are examples of husband and wife, even if the large majority is not between love interests. The same as Tsundere role, in other words, but fitting of NS dynamic more.



> Not when Kishi has messed around with the pairings this much (and Kushina's words to Naruto are pretty big for some sort of pairing in the end too).
> 
> (...)
> 
> Fair enough. Minato commented that Sakura was similar to Kushina, is that direct enough for you?



I don't agree with that. While it's true the 'open pairing ending' is usually prefered by those who think they've lost, that is still the path of least resistance as well.

Kushina's words might be big, but they don't necesserily mean Sakura, and they should take precedance over Sakura's words (she claimed Sasuke was her endgame in chapter 4).



> "It's over breh, NaruHina's development is over, go back to part 1." I remember when I personally said this when Hinata went on the Itachi Pursuit squad and nothing happened for NaruHina.



?


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> while looking for it vs Kiba, found the one where he mocks Sasuke.
> since we were talking about sakura's smile before, there's vs Kiba, another, my boy nardo
> 
> Okay the manga is out. i'm too excited. if you want more examples I'll give it to you later.



I still think I want more examples, if you can find me one in part 2 I'll give you this point. Naruto vs Kiba (or Naruto's chunnin exam battles in general) are more about Naruto proving himself than actually needing to stop his opponent.



> you repeating me is  a typo or?



Yes, I get confused easily (the one at the bottom is too).



> A . The format between character roles is the same as the Tsundere. I believe there are examples of husband and wife, even if the large majority is not between love interests. The same as Tsundere role, in other words, but fitting of NS dynamic more.



Quite probably, although I wasn't aware the dere-dere part needed to be romantic. Sakura's punch/hug after pain was a rather straight up tsundere scene though (assuming tsundere doesn't imply romance on its own).



> I don't agree with that. While it's true the 'open pairing ending' is usually prefered by those who think they've lost, that is still the path of least resistance as well.



So you think the most likely outcome for the series is an open ending?



> Kushina's words might be big, but they don't necesserily mean Sakura, and they should take precedance over Sakura's words (she claimed Sasuke was her endgame in chapter 4).



I was using Kushina's words there as anti-open ending, as she was telling Naruto to find a girl, meaning either NS or NH. As far as precedence goes, later chapters should be given a lot more weight than early ones, especially when it was clear that Kishi was portraying Sakura's infatuation with Sasuke negatively (having a person as your dream/goal/interest is not cool folks). I mean just look at Neji's words in the chunnin exams compared to what's actually ended up happening.


----------



## LesExit (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Nah Sasuke was insane and evil, the manga pointed that out several times (e.g. his face when stabbing Karin). And Danzo/Elders is not the same thing as Konoha, especially Naruto who has tried to help Sasuke all this time. We've already seen Sasuke try to dismiss Naruto only for Sakura to get angry at him.


Well ya, but she'll understand what brought it on. Just as it made Naruto understand. Did you see Naruto before he heard the truth...he was on the floor basically crying XD So I'm going to keep thinking that Sakura finding out the truth will change how she feels 


Mr Horrible said:


> In terms of understanding Sasuke, Naruto>>>Sakura, this reflects the bond between Naruto and Sasuke being significantly stronger (read; present) than the one between Sakura and Sasuke.


I don't know why you say that, when clearly Naruto has the advantage of having more information about Sasuke. As I said before, before he found out the truth he was on the ground. This was Naruto before he found out: 
Naruto was in no better place. regarding his feelings towards Sasuke than Sakura was.
I think that shows how big of an effect that information could have on Sakura. Don't you??


Mr Horrible said:


> I personally think a slash is quite emotive and seems to be leading to Sasuke wanting to kill Naruto. It'd also make the final fight actually mean something other than Naruto and Sasuke sparring.


A simple sparring fight would be stupid. I could see the whole killing thing from conflicting political ideals about the world. I still feel like they're going to work things out and come up with some new system together.


Mr Horrible said:


> And yet the manga seems to have made it come down to Naruto vs Sasuke for the role of Hokage and all the rookies are like 'fuck Sasuke, we want Naruto'.


 They don't even know what he has to say about how he wants to change the system though :33 Who knows...he might make sense >u>


----------



## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> I still think I want more examples, if you can find me one in part 2 I'll give you this point. Naruto vs Kiba (or Naruto's chunnin exam battles in general) are more about Naruto proving himself than actually needing to stop his opponent.



Which is why the are almost all on the opposing side
Which is why the are almost all on the opposing side

I remember Naruto grinned like a fucker very recently as well, because I liked it and fangirled like old times. TBH I forget which chapter it was.



> Quite probably, although I wasn't aware the dere-dere part needed to be romantic. Sakura's punch/hug after pain was a rather straight up tsundere scene though (assuming tsundere doesn't imply romance on its own).



I don't disagree.



> So you think the most likely outcome for the series is an open ending?



I don't. I'm just saying that the path of least resistance is open ending, not pairings.

I disagree that the path of least resistance is NarSak. IMO, it's the path that has been blocked a long time ago. Naruto has been shown to be warming up to Hinata lately. On the other hand, Sakura has warmed up to Naruto and yet her feelings didn't change.



> I was using Kushina's words there as anti-open ending, as she was telling Naruto to find a girl, meaning either NS or NH. As far as precedence goes, later chapters should be given a lot more weight than early ones, especially when it was clear that Kishi was portraying Sakura's infatuation with Sasuke negatively (having a person as your dream/goal/interest is not cool folks). I mean just look at Neji's words in the chunnin exams compared to what's actually ended up happening.



Kushina's words are actually quite irrelevant, whether NS or NH as endgame. While literary foreshadowing is fine and all, Naruto ending up with someone should be for himself, not because his mother told him to.

How is wishing for a boyfriend a bad goal when the other two had goals such as 'the loser wants to be president because he's an attention whore' and 'the biggest ambition in life is killing the last of kin for revenge'. Naruto had to evolve past the former and Sasuke's avenger-kun issues were portrayed as bad for him as well. Similarly Sakura's crush had to go from that to real love, what's so difficult to accept? Naruto wanting to be Hokage, Sasuke wanting to restore his clan's honour are both things that are still referenced to this day. Sakura's might not be, because that would be innapropriate since he's an enemy, but it will eventually come around again. Nobody but peons doubts Naruto is going to be Hokage or that Sasuke would eventually kill his brother and now restore his clan's rep. So, why Sakura is an exception then? She's a girl and Kishi hates girls?

I also disagree Sakura's love for Sasuke has been portrayed negatively. She suffers yes, but because he's in darkness. She would have suffered for that, even if she didn't love him anymore.


----------



## LesExit (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Nobody but peons doubts Naruto is going to be Hokage



*Spoiler*: __ 



Well that hurts my feelings


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Well ya, but she'll understand what brought it on. Just as it made Naruto understand. Did you see Naruto before he heard the truth...he was on the floor basically crying XD So I'm going to keep thinking that Sakura finding out the truth will change how she feels



And Sakura would still be behind Naruto/Sasuke in terms of a loved on dying. Not only that but as I said before, knowing the truth about the Uchiha massacre didn't actually change what Naruto did, if anything it made him take a harder line against Sasuke (he never threatened to kill Sasuke previous to that).

Kakashi didn't give a darn either, nor did Yamato, of course once Sakura knows everything will be better? All the shit that has gone down for SS was completely unrelated to the Uchiha massacre.



> I don't know why you say that, when clearly Naruto has the advantage of having more information about Sasuke. As I said before, before he found out the truth he was on the ground. This was Naruto before he found out:
> Naruto was in no better place. regarding his feelings towards Sasuke than Sakura was.
> I think that shows how big of an effect that information could have on Sakura. Don't you??



What, she'll want to kill Sasuke again?



> A simple sparring fight would be stupid. I could see the whole killing thing from conflicting political ideals about the world. I still feel like they're going to work things out and come up with some new system together.



Well yes, they are hardly going to die.



> They don't even know what he has to say about how he wants to change the system though :33 Who knows...he might make sense >u>



IIRC Sasuke wants to eliminate the Bijuu.



ch1p said:


> Which is why the are almost all on the opposing side
> Which is why the are almost all on the opposing side
> 
> I remember Naruto grinned like a fucker very recently as well, because I liked it and fangirled like old times. TBH I forget which chapter it was.



That's not the shit eating grin we're talking about though (with the closed eyes and the hand behind the head).



> I don't. I'm just saying that the path of least resistance is open ending, not pairings.



Then we are talking about different things as I'm saying I go with whichever is the least unlikely (meaning whichever is the most likely).



> I disagree that the path of least resistance is NarSak. IMO, it's the path that has been blocked a long time ago. Naruto has been shown to be warming up to Hinata lately. On the other hand, Sakura has warmed up to Naruto and yet her feelings didn't change.



NH still lacks all the platonic development of NS and Naruto's feelings for Sakura were effectively confirmed ~30 chapters ago as well. I feel like when you're getting this late without a change in the MC's feelings, then you're likely looking at them being reciprocated.



> Kushina's words are actually quite irrelevant, whether NS or NH as endgame. While literary foreshadowing is fine and all, Naruto ending up with someone should be for himself, not because his mother told him to.



A quaint sidestep, I don't care why Naruto ends up with one of the girls, just that he does in this argument.



> How is wishing for a boyfriend a bad goal when the other two had goals such as 'the loser wants to be president because he's an attention whore' and 'the biggest ambition in life is killing the last of kin for revenge'. Naruto had to evolve past the former and Sasuke's avenger-kun issues were portrayed as bad for him as well. Similarly Sakura's crush had to go from that to real love, what's so difficult to accept? Naruto wanting to be Hokage, Sasuke wanting to restore his clan's honour are both things that are still referenced to this day. Sakura's might not be, because that would be innapropriate since he's an enemy, but it will eventually come around again. Nobody but peons doubts Naruto is going to be Hokage or that Sasuke would eventually kill his brother and now restore his clan's rep. So, why Sakura is an exception then? She's a girl and Kishi hates girls?



Wait, are you seriously going with this? You actually can't see the difference in the goals of those three?



> I also disagree Sakura's love for Sasuke has been portrayed negatively. She suffers yes, but because he's in darkness. She would have suffered for that, even if she didn't love him anymore.



That right there was portrayed negatively, it's easily shown in Kakashi's reaction to it. Later on we have a lack of trust and murder attempts so you tell me how SS is being portrayed?


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

@ch1p:  I stated Naruto gave Sakura a smile when she told him she will join the fight and you excused by portraying Naruto negatively on "go back to the kitchen" (whatever that means) when he was just being his usual caring self toward the girl he likes to rest since she gave him a full recovery after thanking her and that was before he smiled not after, so your rebuttal did not make sense.

Then, I stated it was incorrect to portray Naruto that way because he quickly gave into her determination to join after a close up panel of him smiling (which was a counter argument to your Naruto smiling at Hinata since he gave one to Sakura and others).  And even if you want to use that Hinata scene, Naruto clearly did not mean it as a romantic gesture since that scene happened before Naruto implied to his father of his feelings for Sakura.

And now you are going with the "what if" scenarios.  Any pairing fan can do that but the fact of the matter is, currently, Naruto still loves Sakura.  That is what the whole debate was about in the first place.

Naruto is not romantically warming up to Hinata, if so, he would had conflict when Minato questioned about Sakura nor would he affirmed of his feelings for Sakura with Hinata being within earshot.

It is like we are not reading the same manga.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> That's not the shit eating grin we're talking about though (with the closed eyes and the hand behind the head).



You're being very specific for no reason whatsoever. The original argument was about Sai commenting Naruto smiles around Sakura a lot. It was never about the type of smiling that took place.



> Then we are talking about different things as I'm saying I go with whichever is the least unlikely (meaning whichever is the most likely).
> 
> NH still lacks all the platonic development of NS and Naruto's feelings for Sakura were effectively confirmed ~30 chapters ago as well. I feel like when you're getting this late without a change in the MC's feelings, then you're likely looking at them being reciprocated.



You keep insisting on 'platonic development' when the series has never cattered to that. 

Tsunade had her team since they were very young children, but it wasn't with either of them that she kindled love with. It was with someone she met at an assembly as an adult. Konan had two childhood friends, but only loved one of them. Rin was more friendly towards Obito and still loved Kakashi. Minato watched Kushina from afar for years. On the other hand, Kushina fell for Minato the moment he did something that impressed her, not over companionship.

You're also forgetting that the most "important" bond in this manga (Sasuke and Naruto) is actually one with only months of development together.



> A quaint sidestep, I don't care why Naruto ends up with one of the girls, just that he does in this argument.



You just spoke of platonic development is important, but then you also state Kushina's words are the holy grail for some reason.



> Wait, are you seriously going with this? You actually can't see the difference in the goals of those three?



I see many differences. I don't see how they're thematically introduced as different though. They are all given as the same thing, goals these three have in life, and all are being pandered to this day.

I'm not saying SasuSaku is going to happen because of this chapter. What I'm saying is that it's unfair for people to accept Naruto's silly goal and Sasuke's destructive goal without once batting an eyelash at it, but then not accept Sakura's for no good reason. Because they think it's "lame" or "doesn't measure up" or for pairing preference's sake.

This becomes amazingly unfair when those very same people consider Kushina's words, which is by all means a random panel and stated by a third party, to actually take precedance over the interested party's stated goals. I'm sorry, but if I'm supposed to take Kushina's words as a "hint" due to authorial intent then Sakura's words in chapter 4 (and derivatives) is a bigger "hint". There shouldn't be exceptions.



> That right there was portrayed negatively, it's easily shown in Kakashi's reaction to it.



It's not with the intent you'd like.

First, because while Kakashi comments on Sakura's priorities, what he says is not against the pairing itself, just that she should recheck her priorities (for example, if she wants to become a great ninja first and wants sasuke second, that would counter his criticism). Second, because many have slighted Naruto's attempt to being Hokage as well, that doesn't stop the reader for thinking he'll still going to become one, and many have told Sasuke revenge sucked but he still got to do it (and the same for restoration of the Uchiha's pride). Including Kakashi, btw.

What he says about Sakura's goal is not so different about what he had to say about Naruto's (growing up an interesting away is not the same as agreeing he can or should be Hokage) or Sasuke's (calling his goals beforehand is not the same as agreeing he can or should do it). In fact, on the latter, he condemned it more than once. On the other hand, he never condenmed Sakura's love for Sasuke.



> Later on we have a lack of trust and murder attempts so you tell me how SS is being portrayed?



Sasuke is in darkness when he does all of this. That's what's portrayed as negative. Like I said.



Fruits Basket Fan said:


> @ch1p:  I stated Naruto gave Sakura a smile when she told him she will join the fight and you excused by portraying Naruto negatively on "go back to the kitchen" (whatever that means) when he was just being his usual caring self toward the girl he likes to rest since she gave him a full recovery after thanking her and that was before he smiled not after, so your rebuttal did not make sense.



You may try to fluff the whole thing as Naruto 'caring', but the truth is that Sakura scolded him for doing it. It was bad and Sakura thought it was bad. Either Naruto realised and smiling was the least he could do, or he didn't realise it and he's even more clueless about Sakura than you'd like.



> Then, I stated it was incorrect to portray Naruto that way because he quickly gave into her determination to join after a close up panel of him smiling (which was a counter argument to your Naruto smiling at Hinata since he gave one to Sakura and others).  And even if you want to use that Hinata scene, Naruto clearly did not mean it as a romantic gesture since that scene happened before Naruto implied to his father of his feelings for Sakura.



The smile Naruto gave Sakura is not the same as Hinata's. The Sakura one came after being told to stfu about going to the kitchen. The Hinata one came after being thanked for always being by his side and in tandem withy squeezing her hand. Context matters.



> And now you are going with the "what if" scenarios.  Any pairing fan can do that but the fact of the matter is, currently, Naruto still loves Sakura.  That is what the whole debate was about in the first place.
> 
> Naruto is not romantically warming up to Hinata, if so, he would had conflict when Minato questioned about Sakura nor would he affirmed of his feelings for Sakura with Hinata being within earshot.



The whole debate is not about stating the status quo. If it was so, then they should just close this joing and put the status quo on the OP.

The whole point of this debate is to speculate about the future. As it stands now, NaruHina is going swell but can be sunk (and you have to provide reasons for this), while NaruSaku is still at the ditch the fake confession left it in (and you have to provide reasons on how it's getting out). SasuSaku is on standby, because while bulshit happened it didn't change anything as Sakura is still in love with Sasuke.



> It is like we are not reading the same manga.



Okay.


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

Well, Kishi portrayed SS negatively enough that even Sakura had to pretend with a fake smile that she was "happy" and "trusts" Sasuke......

*reads edit*

And it still does not change the fact that Naruto loves Sakura, not Hinata, even after the 615 scene.  Which is what I was countering you in the first place but you are backtracking to "what if" scenarios.

His smile was a genuine one to Sakura, not a forced and embarrassed one.

You are making Naruto appear to be a jerk when that was not his intent much like his chakra hand holding was not meant to be romantic toward Hinata.

And no the debate is about what is happening now!  No fluffy what ifs and this may happen when such scenes have not happened.

NH and NS are at best on stand by  and SS is on critical condition.


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Well, Kishi portrayed SS negatively enough that even Sakura had to pretend with a fake smile that she was "happy" and "trusts" Sasuke......
> 
> *reads edit*
> 
> And it still does not change the fact that Naruto loves Sakura, not Hinata, even after the 615 scene.  Which is what I was countering you in the first place but you are backtracking to "what if" scenarios.



Sakura still loves Sasuke, despite the negatives.

This is interesting though, isn't the status quo all you care about anyway? You are very determinate saying that Naruto loves Sakura and not Hinata, yet you have to comment on SS so called negativity (which doesn't matter, but let's entertain this for a second) and using that as a 'what if' for SS for what reason?  Why are you complaining about one and not the other?



> His smile was a genuine one to Sakura, not a forced and embarrassed one.



NaruHina's wasn't forced or embarrassed either. There is also the eye comment smile, which is very similar.

Why do you say NaruHina's was forced or embarrassed?



> You are making Naruto appear to be a jerk when that was not his intent



Naruto was a jerk, many people commented on this. Sakura at least thought so as well, she told him to stfu in a non pleased manner.



> much like his chakra hand holding was not meant to be romantic toward Hinata.



I'm not saying it's romantic. I'm saying it's different. Naruto didn't thank, smile, squeeze the hand of the rest of the people he gave chakra to. That's potential. On the other hand, NarSak already went through all of these, and yet Sakura doesn't love Naruto.



> And no the debate is about what is happening now!  No fluffy what ifs and this may happen when such scenes have not happened.



Then Sakura loves Sasuke and you can gtfo with your negativity and what if scenarios. 



> NH and NS are at best on stand by  and SS is on critical condition.



I like how SS is on permanent critical condition since part 2 began according to ASS. Yet it never dies.  Much like Hinata's development, always over when she does something towards Naruto, but then...


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You're being very specific for no reason whatsoever. The original argument was about Sai commenting Naruto smiles around Sakura a lot. It was never about the type of smiling that took place.



Indeed I am, because I am replying to a very specific statement.

See the comment I originally disagreed with;




> You keep insisting on 'platonic development' when the series has never cattered to that.
> 
> Tsunade had her team since they were very young children, but it wasn't with either of them that she kindled love with. It was with someone she met at an assembly as an adult. Konan had two childhood friends, but only loved one of them. Rin was more friendly towards Obito and still loved Kakashi. Minato watched Kushina from afar for years. On the other hand, Kushina fell for Minato the moment he did something that impressed her, not over companionship.



So you're saying a character's going to have a big realization without really worrying about platonic development?

.



> You're also forgetting that the most "important" bond in this manga (Sasuke and Naruto) is actually one with only months of development together.



Well they've already kissed so I guess we're going for the next canon pairing.



> You just spoke of platonic development is important, but then you also state Kushina's words are the holy grail for some reason.



I don't mean them to be a holy grail, just to me they seem like strong evidence against an open ending. 



> I see many differences. I don't see how they're thematically introduced as different though. They are all given as the same thing, goals these three have in life, and all are being pandered to this day.



Naruto says something stupid for a sad reason (he's lonely and wants people to stop ignoring him~), Sasuke says something angsty (shocker) and then Sakura says something stupid without much else going on.



> I'm not saying SasuSaku is going to happen because of this chapter. What I'm saying is that it's unfair for people to accept Naruto's silly goal and Sasuke's destructive goal without once batting an eyelash at it, but then not accept Sakura's for no good reason. Because they think it's "lame" or "doesn't measure up" or for pairing preference's sake.



Also if we're going _all_ the way back there then I'm going to bring up a certain forehead line and contrast it with what made Kushina fall in love with Minato .

I don't accept Sakura's for exactly that, there's no good reason for it.



> This becomes amazingly unfair when those very same people consider Kushina's words, which is by all means a random panel and stated by a third party, to actually take precedance over the interested party's stated goals. I'm sorry, but if I'm supposed to take Kushina's words as a "hint" due to authorial intent then Sakura's words in chapter 4 (and derivatives) is a bigger "hint". There shouldn't be exceptions.



The characters have changed a hell of a lot since chapter 4, which is why hints contained in there will generally be of less interest than hints in chapter 500.

I still think we're talking about Kushina telling Naruto to get with Sakura rather than her telling Naruto to find a girl in general, the latter of which is what I brought up with you. I think the evidence for the former is much less (Kushina's words aren't as good for NS as they are for anti-open ending imo).



> First, because while Kakashi comments on Sakura's priorities, what he says is not against the pairing itself, just that she should recheck her priorities (for example, if she wants to become a great ninja first and wants sasuke second, that would counter his criticism). Second, because many have slighted Naruto's attempt to being Hokage as well, that doesn't stop the reader for thinking he'll still going to become one, and many have told Sasuke revenge sucked but he still got to do it (and the same for restoration of the Uchiha's pride). Including Kakashi, btw.



Yes, the whole reason I look down upon Sakura's goals there is the priorities and the immaturity they come along with. Sakura's goals do seem to have changed, especially in the forest of death (where she doesn't want to follow Naruto/Sasuke and wants to help both of them). If you asked people what Sakura's goals are, guess which one they'd say?



> What he says about Sakura's goal is not so different about what he had to say about Naruto's (growing up an interesting away is not the same as agreeing he can or should be Hokage) or Sasuke's (calling his goals beforehand is not the same as agreeing he can or should do it). In fact, on the latter, he condemned it more than once. On the other hand, he never condenmed Sakura's love for Sasuke.



Because Sakura's goals weren't treated with the same gravity as the others, especially Sasuke's. Naruto's were also treated as a joke (again with a sad backstory), but once he became the determinator and didn't let up on it everyone started thinking it was possible/probable.



> Sasuke is in darkness when he does all of this. That's what's portrayed as negative. Like I said.



Which has caused a lack of trust from Sakura . Seeing changes in relationship dynamics based on actions is actually pretty rare. It's part of the reason NH was so happy when Naruto remembered Hinata's sacrifice.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

Ch1p.....you are backtracking again.

Never once did I say Sakura loves Naruto and the original argument was you using smiles as proof for romance when Naruto has done it for Sakura and others and even confirmed his feelings for Sakura again!

If it was different for Hinata, Naruto would have NOT told his father after that scene with a poker face that he considers Sakura more or less his girlfriend nor be jealous next chapter when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her.

You do this when you are losing a debate every single time.

Whether you like it or not, Naruto still loves Sakura and while Sakura may still love Sasuke....it is on negative turns right now (chapter 635).


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Indeed I am, because I am replying to a very specific statement.
> 
> See the comment I originally disagreed with;



Scooby harder then. I was replying to Naiki, which you replied to then. You might have disagreed with Michael, but my argument wasn't his. I'm not required to defend his post. However, if you pick a fight with me, you're required to know about mine.



> So you're saying a character's going to have a big realization without really worrying about platonic development?



I'm saying that your platonic development level assessments don't matter as you'd like. Hinata as proved herself to be a reliable person, that will be there at Naruto's side. That is quite enough. She doesn't need to be 24/7 by his side nor does she need to provide solution for his every problem.

Much like all the other relationships in this manga. Naruto doesn't need to be with Sakura 24/7 nor does he need to provide solution for Sakura's every problem (in fact, outside of Sasuke and even then, he doesn't) either. Nothing stops the 'opposition' to tell you that their development isn't enough either, according to their standards.



> Well they've already kissed so I guess we're going for the next canon pairing.



You're being flippant because you have no counter. Which is, such a bond, without having this 'platonic' development, is still considered important enough to die for according to the main character.



> I don't mean them to be a holy grail, just to me they seem like strong evidence against an open ending.



Chapter 4 is also "strong evidence" (whatever that means to you) against open ending. Plus, you used Kushina's words as evidence for NaruSaku in a post to another person. That is what I'm refering to.



> Naruto says something stupid for a sad reason (he's lonely and wants people to stop ignoring him~), Sasuke says something angsty (shocker) and then Sakura says something stupid without much else going on.



So Sakura and Naruto said something stupid. Why is Sakura's stupidity not valid but Naruto's is? Plus, it's not 'without much else going on'. Sakura's wish to be acknowledged by Sasuke was noted by Naruto to be the reason why he likes her. So he likes her for weak or stupid reasons then?



> Also if we're going _all_ the way back there then I'm going to bring up a certain forehead line and contrast it with what made Kushina fall in love with Minato .



You can bring it all you want. Sakura wanted Sasuke to tell her about the forehead, not Naruto. When she was told that's the sort ot fhing Naruto would say, she didn't give a darn about it.



> I don't accept Sakura's for exactly that, there's no good reason for it.



It's *her* wish and one foundation of her character. You're dismissing with it because you don't agree with since it goes against what you personally believe. I didn't agree with Naruto's either, because he's a dumbass how can be the president equivalent, but I never though he wouldn't eventually get it. That's because it's _his_ wish and one of the foundations of his character. You have double standards.



> The characters have changed a hell of a lot since chapter 4, which is why hints contained in there will generally be of less interest than hints in chapter 500.



That would be true, if both Naruto and Sasuke didn't pander to their chapter 4 goals as recently as chapter +650 and Sakura confirmed she loved Sasuke in 540 and then blushed when he took her side in 632.



> I still think we're talking about Kushina telling Naruto to get with Sakura rather than her telling Naruto to find a girl in general, the latter of which is what I brought up with you. I think the evidence for the former is much less (Kushina's words aren't as good for NS as they are for anti-open ending imo).



Like I said, if you think that kind of authorial intent is evidence, then you have to accept other people will do the exact same for their pairings. That allows SS to tell you fodder ninja said 'hope it works out for you' as foreshadowing and NH to tell you that Kushina's comment is ironic or that 'standing by his side' is meta for being his other half.

In other words, grasping at straws is not evidence.



> Yes, the whole reason I look down upon Sakura's goals there is the priorities and the immaturity they come along with. Sakura's goals do seem to have changed, especially in the forest of death (where she doesn't want to follow Naruto/Sasuke and wants to help both of them). If you asked people what Sakura's goals are, guess which one they'd say?



Naruto was immature as well. This is noted by Kakashi when he says that all he cares too much about ramen or by Iruka, who _grew up past being an attention whore to cope with loneliness_.



> Because Sakura's goals weren't treated with the same gravity as the others, especially Sasuke's. Naruto's were also treated as a joke (again with a sad backstory), but once he became the determinator and didn't let up on it everyone started thinking it was possible/probable.



Yes they were. They were so sincere they spurned Naruto into making the PoaLT and to correctly pinpoint that she was lying when she confessed to him. 



> Which has caused a lack of trust from Sakura .



Sakura's lack of trust doesn't matter. She already lost all trust there was to have in Iron Country, yet she continued to love him. The trust boat has sunk a long time ago. If Sakura is going to fall out of love with Sasuke, it's going to be through another way.



> Seeing changes in relationship dynamics based on actions is actually pretty rare. It's part of the reason NH was so happy when Naruto remembered Hinata's sacrifice.



You're not helping your case here. 633 shows Hinata flashbacking to a Naruto who's smiling and squeezing her hand after all. That is a change in relationship dynamics.

On the other hand, what NarSak got lately was a redux of Sakura's thoughts on the chunin exam.



Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Never once did I say Sakura loves Naruto and the original argument was you using smiles as proof for romance when Naruto has done it for Sakura and others and even confirmed his feelings for Sakura again!
> 
> If it was different for Hinata, Naruto would have NOT told his father after that scene with a poker face that he considers Sakura more or less his girlfriend nor be jealous next chapter when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her.



I'm not saying you're saying Sakura loves Naruto. What I'm saying is that you're complaining about 'technicalities' and 'what ifs' for NH when you think it's enough of a settlement to say Naruto loves Sakyra, yet you indulge in 'technicalities' and 'what ifs' as to why SS is going to fail.



> Whether you like it or not, Naruto still loves Sakura and while Sakura may still love Sasuke....it is on negative turns right now (chapter 635).



This is the problem, FBF. It was established in 540, which is one less day ago in manga timeline, that Sakura LOVES Sasuke. Yet you're entertaining what ifs that it's perhaps a 'maybe' or that she's 'on negative turns' and may fall out of love with him.

What's stopping NaruHina in saying that 'maybe' Naruto loves Sakura and he was just fucking around, or that he's 'on the negative turns' and is falling out of love with her.

You're clearly having double standards over this.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

I never denied Sakura's feelings even then, though she does not look too happy about it.

Naruto is not a jerk or hypocrite to be fooling around feelings (he got onto Sakura's case with her fake confession, after all) and Hinata being within earshot. We had him become jealous after Sakura displaying her power and her noticing Sasuke first (he was jealous because he likes her).

And classic "No U" response.


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> I never denied Sakura's feelings even then, though she does not look too happy about it.
> 
> And classic "No U" response.



Saying 'while Sakura may still love Sasuke....it is on negative turns right now ' alludes to doubt and a what if.



> Naruto is not a jerk or hypocrite to be fooling around feelings (he got onto Sakura's case with her fake confession, after all) and Hinata being within earshot.



Naruto is a "jerk" because Sakura is not his girlfriend, yet he's saying that she is. I belive his "jerk" thing is not to be taken seriously though, because Naruto is just that clueless. I never said Naruto was a "jerk" to Hinata. I don't know why you're mentioning any of the two.

What I said he was being a jerk for would be the 'you can go rest Sakura', or whatever his line is. I don't think he's a jerk myself, I think he's tactless and has no clue about Sakura beyond the Sasuke issue. However, Sakura thought he was a jerk, and called him on it. Such him smiling is either the least he could if he acknowledged he was tactless, or it just shows he's even more clueless because he couldn't even see it after she called him out.



> We had him become jealous after Sakura displaying her power and her noticing Sasuke first (he was jealous because he likes her).



While Naruto may still like Sakura.... nothing stops it from being on negative turns right now (chapter 615) because Hinata stepped it up.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

Not my fault Kishi wrote that chapter.

Do not like it?  Read a doujin.

Excuse me what?  Naruto does not love Hinata and while Sakura is sometimes a pain she is not nearly as terrible to Naruto like Sasuke was to her .  Sakura is supportive of his goals even if she does not love him, which might be why he still likes her.

Your keep going into a losing debate and your comparisons are starting to crack.


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Not my fault Kishi wrote that chapter.



I never said it was your fault. 



> Do not like it?  Read a doujin.





EDIT:



> Excuse me what? Naruto does not love Hinata and while Sakura is sometimes a pain she is not nearly as terrible to Naruto like Sasuke was to her .



I never said otherwise.



> Your keep going into a losing debate and your comparisons are starting to crack.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 19, 2014)

It is a figure of speech.

And yes, it is the truth sadly !


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Scooby harder then. I was replying to Naiki, which you replied to then. You might have disagreed with Michael, but my argument wasn't his. I'm not required to defend his post. However, if you pick a fight with me, you're required to know about mine.



I get confused sometimes .



> I'm saying that your platonic development level assessments don't matter as you'd like. Hinata as proved herself to be a reliable person, that will be there at Naruto's side. That is quite enough. She doesn't need to be 24/7 by his side nor does she need to provide solution for his every problem.
> 
> Much like all the other relationships in this manga. Naruto doesn't need to be with Sakura 24/7 nor does he need to provide solution for Sakura's every problem (in fact, outside of Sasuke and even then, he doesn't) either. Nothing stops the 'opposition' to tell you that their development isn't enough either, according to their standards.



And I'm saying the platonic development matters more than you'd like in the sense of the overall story and where the subplot is going.



> You're being flippant because you have no counter. Which is, such a bond, without having this 'platonic' development, is still considered important enough to die for according to the main character.



They did have a lot of platonic development, a lot of part 1 was spent on Naruto and Sasuke's bond.



> Chapter 4 is also "strong evidence" (whatever that means to you) against open ending. Plus, you used Kushina's words as evidence for NaruSaku in a post to another person. That is what I'm refering to.



Oh, fair enough. I'd agree as it does sort of set up Sakura's character around the subplot and that has stayed a fair bit.



> So Sakura and Naruto said something stupid. Why is Sakura's stupidity not valid but Naruto's is? Plus, it's not 'without much else going on'. Sakura's wish to be acknowledged by Sasuke was noted by Naruto to be the reason why he likes her. So he likes her for weak or stupid reasons then?



Because we got legit backstory to Naruto, where he made a stupid statement that belied a serious issue (people ignoring him).



> You can bring it all you want. Sakura wanted Sasuke to tell her about the forehead, not Naruto. When she was told that's the sort ot fhing Naruto would say, she didn't give a darn about it.



It's just... coincidental .



> It's *her* wish and one foundation of her character. You're dismissing with it because you don't agree with since it goes against what you personally believe. I didn't agree with Naruto's either, because he's a dumbass how can be the president equivalent, but I never though he wouldn't eventually get it. That's because it's _his_ wish and one of the foundations of his character. You have double standards.



Did only one of us read the part where Sakura matured and then never thought about that wish again? I mean the FoD was pretty integral to her character development, as was the scene at the end of part 1 where she decides to become Tsunade's apprentice.



> That would be true, if both Naruto and Sasuke didn't pander to their chapter 4 goals as recently as chapter +650 and Sakura confirmed she loved Sasuke in 540 and then blushed when he took her side in 632.



Loving is not the same thing as having her sole goal be Sasuke. I don't comprehend how you think having your entire life goal be getting a particular boy is a healthy mentality.

Also Sasuke already avenged his family, I don't recall any real mention of that in ~650+.



> Like I said, if you think that kind of authorial intent is evidence, then you have to accept other people will do the exact same for their pairings. *That allows SS to tell you fodder ninja said 'hope it works out for you' as foreshadowing* and NH to tell you that Kushina's comment is ironic or that 'standing by his side' is meta for being his other half.
> 
> In other words, grasping at straws is not evidence.



You are aware that particular phrase can also have a big negative foreshadowing right?

When you have a your main character's heartfelt meeting with his dead mother and she gives him life advice, that tends to be _pretty important_ in any story, it's not just going to be a throwaway line.



> Naruto was immature as well. This is noted by Kakashi when he says that all he cares too much about ramen or by Iruka, who _grew up past being an attention whore to cope with loneliness_.



Naruto gets a pass because of childhood trauma, people tend not to joke too much about that kind of thing (well maybe Tenten ).



> Yes they were. They were so sincere they spurned Naruto into making the PoaLT and to correctly pinpoint that she was lying when she confessed to him.



By that point Sakura had resolved to protect both Naruto and Sasuke. That being said yes, Sakura's love for Sasuke did spur that sequence, she didn't however do it so she could be with Sasuke, she did it because he was in pain/darkness. Already that's significantly more admirable than her original goal.



> Sakura's lack of trust doesn't matter. She already lost all trust there was to have in Iron Country, yet she continued to love him. The trust boat has sunk a long time ago. If Sakura is going to fall out of love with Sasuke, it's going to be through another way.



As you said before, Kishi is fond of grand, sweeping realizations .



> You're not helping your case here. 633 shows Hinata flashbacking to a Naruto who's smiling and squeezing her hand after all. That is a change in relationship dynamics.



Yes that's true, I admit I find NH much more likely than it was when Naruto didn't give a darn about Hinata's confession for ~150 chapters.



> On the other hand, what NarSak got lately was a redux of Sakura's thoughts on the chunin exam.



*while crying over Naruto's corpse-like body*.

I'd still let the scene play out properly before we form impressions, Naruto's still effectively a meat puppet.


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> I get confused sometimes .



It's fine.



> And I'm saying the platonic development matters more than you'd like in the sense of the overall story and where the subplot is going.



It doesn't matter. I've already highlighted why it doesn't matter because A) the romance in Naruto has happened without people being best friends or had the most platonic development (Tsunade and Dan, Konan and Yahiko, Kushina and Minato, Kakashi and Rin), B) whether Naruto and Sakura had 'enough' platonic development is relative and some will agree / disagree and point out other pairings had it as well and over things that mattered etc etc C) even after all the platonic development, Sakura still doesn't love Naruto.

Why are these invalid? Furthermore, what are the reasons why you think this platonic development matters? Just because of the potential. That means NH's development would have potential as well then. After all, all these couples had was platonic development.



> They did have a lot of platonic development, a lot of part 1 was spent on Naruto and Sasuke's bond.



If you say that you can't say SS should be dimissed either, because they too had platonic development in part 1 with the added bonds of Sasuke being grateful for it.

Plus you can't say NH doesn't matter because they had some platonic development in part 1 and a lot more recently. While it's more spread out, the message stays the same.



> Oh, fair enough. I'd agree as it does sort of set up Sakura's character around the subplot and that has stayed a fair bit.



Alright.



> Because we got legit backstory to Naruto, where he made a stupid statement that belied a serious issue (people ignoring him).



You didn't get backstory for Sakura, but you did get development on screen, which is just as good. 

Sakura crying before the PoaLT wasn't because of a foolish dream. She's genuinely suffering. Furthermore, remember Naruto said he liked Sakura because of her wish to acknowledgement. Remember Naruto was touched by her wish to be acknowledged enough to make the PoaLT to beging with. Remember he flashbacked to Sakura showing love for Sasuke and considered it legitimate when he called out her lies.

The only way you can dismiss Sakura's love as silly is if you call Naruto's assessment of it wrong. This would make Naruto's reasons for liking Sakura to be just as silly, the reasons for making the PoaLT just as silly, and the reasons to call her a liar just as silly. You're digging your own grave.



> It's just... coincidental .



It is not so. Sakura is a popular girl. She has had compliments from several people (the sort of thing Naruto would do, the sort of thing Lee does, the sort of thing Inari says, the fodder ninja, ...), but besides feeling flattered just like everyone would, the only person she was stated to want these compliments from was Sasuke. She was shown not to care about Naruto commenting favourably on her forehead.



> Did only one of us read the part where Sakura matured and then never thought about that wish again? I mean the FoD was pretty integral to her character development, as was the scene at the end of part 1 where she decides to become Tsunade's apprentice.



Sasuke was integral to her character development as well.

 Plus, Sakura did mention wanting to be with him again after chapter 4.



> Loving is not the same thing as having her sole goal be Sasuke. I don't comprehend how you think having your entire life goal be getting a particular boy is a healthy mentality.



I never said it was Sakura's sole goal, nor would I like this to be the case. What I said was that it was *one* of her goals and one of her character foundations. There have been other things she has made goals for, like getting stronger and protecting those two. However, that doesn't invalidate what she wanted back then as well.

Same for Naruto, same for Sasuke. There have been other goals they have made for themselves, but they have never forsaken what they've wanted from part 1. Naruto still wants to be acknowledged as the Hokage, even though he has past surpassed that goal (the whole fate of the ninja world rests on his shoulders and yet he still wants to be hokage).



> Also Sasuke already avenged his family, I don't recall any real mention of that in ~650+.



Sasuke stated his reasons for wanting to protect the Leaf, as a means for the sacrifice Itachi and the Uchiha made not to be in vain.



> You are aware that particular phrase can also have a big negative foreshadowing right?



In a ironic manner? Much like Kushina's don't find a weird one (with the exact same kanji Naruto used to describe Hinata), find someone like me? Yes. This is why I don't use that as an SS argument in a serious debate and why I'm calling the Kushina statement as the exact same thing.



> When you have a main character's heartfelt meeting with his dead mother and she gives him life advice, that tends to be _pretty important_ in any story, it's not just going to be a throwaway line.



Naruto taking baths every day and eating his vegetables were also life advice. He says he'll bath and eat more vegetables (and he never says he'll do the girl thing, ironically enough), but we don't see him changing behaviour. Taking a bath and eating more vegetables, no matter how good and heartfelt advice it may have been, was just a throwaway line. Nothing stops the Kushina line for being the exact same thing. Or do you disagree that a healthy lifestyle is more important than getting a girlfriend?



> Naruto gets a pass because of childhood trauma, people tend not to joke too much about that kind of thing (well maybe Tenten ).



That may be so, but why should Sakura have a tragic past for you to take her goals seriously? That's kind of fucked up, honestly. People don't need to be traumatised to pursue whatever they feel like pursuing.

Furthermore, if sadness is all that you need to validate this stuff, you have that plenty in SS in part 1 and even part 2. Naruto recognised Sakura's pain over Sasuke leaving and said he understood it, *he* took that pain seriously.

On that last point. Naruto was unhappy with loneliness, but instead of accepting it and moving on with his life, he worked hard in being acknowledged by making friends and enduring the pain that brought him (recent case, Neji). He could have moved on like Gaara, who 'gave up' and sought acknowledgement through violence (who was portrayed wrong=. Similar to Sakura, which is unhappy with Sasuke's darkness, but instead of accepting it and moving on with her life, she still believes that he can be redeemed. If you're against this 'negativitiy' because it makes Sakura suffer, then Naruto too should have given up on being acknowledged because people ignoring his existance pained him.



> By that point Sakura had resolved to protect both Naruto and Sasuke. That being said yes, Sakura's love for Sasuke did spur that sequence, she didn't however do it so she could be with Sasuke, she did it because he was in pain/darkness. Already that's significantly more admirable than her original goal.



Just like Naruto's wanting to save the ninja world is more admirable than being ninja president for attention whore purposes. It doesn't mean he'll stop wanting to be Hokage nor should he.



> As you said before, Kishi is fond of grand, sweeping realizations .



You are insisting that 'this time' Sakura will realise it, without giving reasons as to why she would. Like I said, the trust matter has already been settled. It would make no sense to recycle the plotline because we already had that resolution.

BTW, grand, sweeping realisations, would be true for all pairings.



> Yes that's true, I admit I find NH much more likely than it was when Naruto didn't give a darn about Hinata's confession for ~150 chapters.



I remember I mocked the off panel ramen date theories. 



> *while crying over Naruto's corpse-like body*.
> 
> I'd still let the scene play out properly before we form impressions, Naruto's still effectively a meat puppet.



Sakura didn't cry much over his corpse, albeit tbh I don't really think it matters or not (if she did cry or didn't cry over his corpse). I find that shit kind of... bizarre. Much like I found the general assumption from NH fandom that Sakura not risking her life for Naruto established NH > NS and have called it a few times. The fact that Sakura doesn't cry while she's helping Naruto is not indicative of the strenght of her feelings.

However, you cannot escape the reality. Sakura went through that situation (life and death) and didn't have any kind of romantic realisation. The timing for that has come and went. What you'd like is for her to go through that again, just with different results this time around. Much like you want her to go through Iron Country regarding the trust issues with Sasuke, but with different results this time around as well. Almost like a retcon.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 19, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It doesn't matter. I've already highlighted why it doesn't matter because A) the romance in Naruto has happened without people being best friends or had the most platonic development (Tsunade and Dan, Konan and Yahiko, Kushina and Minato, Kakashi and Rin), B) whether Naruto and Sakura had 'enough' platonic development is relative and some will agree / disagree and point out other pairings had it as well and over things that mattered etc etc C) even after all the platonic development, Sakura still doesn't love Naruto.



That's a fair point, I do think it should be tempered by being a backstory and as such we are generally treated to a highlight reel.

On the other hand using that point opens up the comparison between our potential pairings and ones confirmed previously in canon (in other words, parallels). Simply put Hinata doesn't feature here, in _any_ of them. SS generally gets fucked over too because if you look at your list, then Kakashi and Rin is the only one that fits it (edit:snip).



> Why are these invalid? Furthermore, what are the reasons why you think this platonic development matters? Just because of the potential. That means NH's development would have potential as well then. After all, all these couples had was platonic development.



I think when we're waiting for a sweeping realization, then the potential couple that is closest will also be the most likely to have this happen.

I guess I should bring up JiraTsu here too?



> If you say that you can't say SS should be dimissed either, because they too had platonic development in part 1 with the added bonds of Sasuke being grateful for it.
> 
> Plus you can't say NH doesn't matter because they had some platonic development in part 1 and a lot more recently. While it's more spread out, the message stays the same.



It seems to me like we have degenerated into arguing based from part 1 moments and bonding and NS has a good number of those too.



> You didn't get backstory for Sakura, but you did get development on screen, which is just as good.



Development which moved Sakura on from her foolish dream.



> It is not so. Sakura is a popular girl. She has had compliments from several people (the sort of thing Naruto would do, the sort of thing Lee does, the sort of thing Inari says, the fodder ninja, ...), but besides feeling flattered just like everyone would, the only person she was stated to want these compliments from was Sasuke. She was shown not to care about Naruto commenting favourably on her forehead.



Comments on the thing she was self concious about? _Just like Kushina was?_

Pull the other one.

Sasuke!Naruto effectively backed down from his statement about her forehead which was why Sakura stopped caring about it. Now I don't think it'll be featured in the future, I just noted it as primarily a similarity to Kushina and if you think it's valid to dredge up things from the distant past to have relevance on the present, then that is a scene you need to reconcile.



> Sasuke was integral to her character development as well.
> 
> Plus, Sakura did mention wanting to be with him again after chapter 4.



Yep.

Again, I don't have a problem with _one of_ Sakura's goals behind to woo Sasuke, but when it's the only goal I think it's almost pathetic (or would be if they were older).



> I never said it was Sakura's sole goal, nor would I like this to be the case. What I said was that it was *one* of her goals and one of her character foundations. There have been other things she has made goals for, like getting stronger and protecting those two. However, that doesn't invalidate what she wanted back then as well.



Yes but the entire purpose of that scene with Sakura's goals in chapter 4 was to establish how overwhelming important winning Sasuke was and it was obviously treated in a negative light (to place that much importance on Sasuke's dick).



> Same for Naruto, same for Sasuke. There have been other goals they have made for themselves, but they have never forsaken what they've wanted from part 1. Naruto still wants to be acknowledged as the Hokage, even though he has past surpassed that goal (the whole fate of the ninja world rests on his shoulders and yet he still wants to be hokage).



Indeed, but as I said the goals were treated differently. Naruto's would have been treated like Sakura's if it wasn't for his backstory. 



> In a ironic manner? Much like Kushina's don't find a weird one (with the exact same kanji Naruto used to describe Hinata), find someone like me? Yes. This is why I don't use that as an SS argument in a serious debate and why I'm calling the Kushina statement as the exact same thing.



Well to determine how decent a point that is we'd need to know how many ways of saying "weird" there are in Japanese, as well as how many ways Kishimoto uses regularly.

Now as there _are_ many panels of similarity between Sakura and Kushina and furthermore NS/MinaKushi, that should provide context on how to view Kushina's words to Naruto as well. Simply put, Hinata doesn't factor in again.



> Naruto taking baths every day and eating his vegetables were also life advice. He says he'll bath and eat more vegetables (and he never says he'll do the girl thing, ironically enough), but we don't see him changing behaviour. Taking a bath and eating more vegetables, no matter how good and heartfelt advice it may have been, was just a throwaway line. Nothing stops the Kushina line for being the exact same thing. Or do you disagree that a healthy lifestyle is more important than getting a girlfriend?



You think we'd actually see Naruto eating vegetables and bathing? O.o

Anyway, those last words from Kushina are what she thinks is important for Naruto.



> That may be so, but why should Sakura have a tragic past for you to take her goals seriously? That's kind of fucked up, honestly. People don't need to be traumatised to pursue whatever they feel like pursuing.



Because her goal was immature. Naruto's goal was immature too but as I said he gets a pass due to trauma.



> Furthermore, if sadness is all that you need to validate this stuff, you have that plenty in SS in part 1 and even part 2. Naruto recognised Sakura's pain over Sasuke leaving and said he understood it, *he* took that pain seriously.



Fuck I'm entirely sure we're talking about different thing still, let me reiterate;

I have no problem with Sasuke being _*a*_ goal for Sakura.
I have a problem (and the story does to) with Sasuke being _*the*_ goal for Sakura.



> On that last point. Naruto was unhappy with loneliness, but instead of accepting it and moving on with his life, he worked hard in being acknowledged by making friends and enduring the pain that brought him (recent case, Neji). He could have moved on like Gaara, who 'gave up' and sought acknowledgement through violence (who was portrayed wrong=. Similar to Sakura, which is unhappy with Sasuke's darkness, but instead of accepting it and moving on with her life, she still believes that he can be redeemed. If you're against this 'negativitiy' because it makes Sakura suffer, then Naruto too should have given up on being acknowledged because people ignoring his existance pained him.



Gee, you're glossing over Sakura giving up on Sasuke several times there aren't you . Simply put, nothing we've really seen from Sakura has given her a determinator status. Naruto didn't break down in tears or not know what the fuck he was doing or break down in tears because of people ignoring him. Not only that but can you really, really not see the difference between chasing after one person's romantic affections and making a village filled with people who spurn you take notice?

I mean come on now.



> Just like Naruto's wanting to save the ninja world is more admirable than being ninja president for attention whore purposes. It doesn't mean he'll stop wanting to be Hokage nor should he.



Indeed and Sakura chasing after Sasuke has been portrayed in a better light than in chapter 4. My original point was that it simply wasn't portrayed in a good light in that chapter.



> You are insisting that 'this time' Sakura will realise it, without giving reasons as to why she would. Like I said, the trust matter has already been settled. It would make no sense to recycle the plotline because we already had that resolution.



The trust matter has not been settled, we are yet to see the follow up to Sakura's fake smile.

The reasons are the same as ever, as you lot are fond of saying; love isn't rational. The reasons are all there, simply because she didn't previously shouldn't mean she won't, particularly when Naruto's all dead and shit.



> BTW, grand, sweeping realisations, would be true for all pairings.



Ah yes, but it's my pairing that's currently in the cliche setting for one .



> I remember I mocked the off panel ramen date theories.



.



> Sakura didn't cry much over his corpse, albeit tbh I don't really think it matters or not (if she did cry or didn't cry over his corpse). I find that shit kind of... bizarre. Much like I found the general assumption from NH fandom that Sakura not risking her life for Naruto established NH > NS and have called it a few times. The fact that Sakura doesn't cry while she's helping Naruto is not indicative of the strenght of her feelings.



Quite true, still Sakura's frantically trying to stop Naruto from dying, it accomplishes much the same thing. I mean it's certainly not especially romantic at the moment, however it is _very_ cliche to lead to something.



> However, you cannot escape the reality. Sakura went through that situation (life and death) and didn't have any kind of romantic realisation. The timing for that has come and went. What you'd like is for her to go through that again, just with different results this time around. Much like you want her to go through Iron Country regarding the trust issues with Sasuke, but with different results this time around as well. Almost like a retcon.



Who's life and death? Naruto's scene isn't done yet and Sakura's own life just doesn't have the dramatic impact when looking to realize her feelings for another (who wasn't even present at the time).

Oh god I've hit the character limit, I cut some stuff to make it fit >.>


----------



## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> That's a fair point, I do think it should be tempered by being a backstory and as such we are generally treated to a highlight reel.
> 
> On the other hand using that point opens up the comparison between our potential pairings and ones confirmed previously in canon (in other words, parallels). Simply put Hinata doesn't feature here, in _any_ of them. SS generally gets fucked over too because if you look at your list, then Kakashi and Rin is the only one that fits it (edit:snip).
> 
> I think when we're waiting for a sweeping realization, then the potential couple that is closest will also be the most likely to have this happen.



I'm not speaking of parallels. Those are irrelevant as A) they can be done for SS / NS B) they don't fill in for plot anyway.

I'm speaking of how Kishi writes the romance bond. He doesn't care for a pair with most platonic development. Tsunade and her team had most platonic development, but she still got paired with Dan. Rin had more platonic development with Obito, ended her life in love with Kakashi. Konan had platonic development with both Yahiko and Nagato, later in life had more with the latter, still was in love with Yahiko and only him. Minato fell for Kushina by watching her from afar and Kushina fell for Minato the moment he did something cool, not because they had any kind of positive development before.

Suppose that most platonic development actually belongs to NS (I don't care to discuss either way nor does it matter). As said above, there is nothing in the story that indicates most platonic development indicates romance.



> I guess I should bring up JiraTsu here too?



I actually think there's no ambiguity, she loved Dan and not Jiriaya, end of story. However, I'll say ambiguous for the sake of the argument. 

JiraTsu was never confirmed and from the way Tsunade behaved towards Dan later in the war and didn't speak of Jiriaya in any way amorously (not even a regretful lost lover way) when Orochimaru mentioned him, there's plenty room to say either way. To use an ambiguous pairing to validate another ambiguous pairing is to twice make the same mistake.



> It seems to me like we have degenerated into arguing based from part 1 moments and bonding and NS has a good number of those too.



I don't disagree NS had its platonic moments in part 1 or part 2. However, like I said before, the issue here is that you're saying (more) platonic bonding makes it endgame when that is not necessarily true as there's no rule for it.



> Development which moved Sakura on from her foolish dream.



Sakura's dream to be acknowledged by Sasuke was never portrayed as foolish as you'd like. It was thanks to that dream that A) Naruto stated he liked Sakura, B) did the PoaLT, C) called her out for being a liar. To say that Sakura's dream is '_foolish_' is to say three major points of the NS pairing is also foolish. After all, _Naruto_ took it seriously, it's the base for his romantic feelings for her, to make grand promises, and to say he actually knows her 'better than that'. 

Sakura was never shown to have moved on from her dream. At most you have Iron Country and we all know she couldn't do it anyway, so at the end of the day, Sakura was never shown to have successfully moved on. She thought she could do it, but she could not.



> Comments on the thing she was self concious about? _Just like Kushina was?_ Pull the other one.
> 
> Sasuke!Naruto effectively backed down from his statement about her forehead which was why Sakura stopped caring about it. Now I don't think it'll be featured in the future, I just noted it as primarily a similarity to Kushina and if you think it's valid to dredge up things from the distant past to have relevance on the present, then that is a scene you need to reconcile.



Sakura is even more self conscious about her skills, which is something that has actually been more of a plot point as important to Sakura than the forehead which only mattered in chapter 3. Since Sasuke has commented on those skills positively (while Naruto is _scared_ of them), I'd give him the edge there.

You want Sakura to still be stuck in chapter 3, caring about her forehead more than she cares about other things which should be more important. You're very keen on calling Sakura's dream of getting Sasuke as her boyfriend to be foolish, yet you're there defending that her having some realisation because someone commented favourably on her forehead is quite legitimate, when it manages to be even shallower.

This discussion reminds me of FoD, where Sasuke was all prissy about who hurt Sakura, which was truly important since that actually mattered... while Naruto only noticed that her hair, which wasn't all that important at all lmao. Indeed, her _decision_ was important, but he believed her fake explanation that she wanted a '_image change_'.

Sasuke!Naruto backed away from that statement, such Sakura didn't fall in love with Sasuke for that moment. Furthermore, Sasuke!Naruto said that sort of thing was something Naruto would say, so if Sakura wanted to have her forehead praised just in general she'd know Naruto would do it. This has always been a moot point.



> Again, I don't have a problem with _one of_ Sakura's goals behind to woo Sasuke, but when it's the only goal I think it's almost pathetic (or would be if they were older).



I would think it would be pathetic for her to have that as her only goal as well.



> Yes but the entire purpose of that scene with Sakura's goals in chapter 4 was to establish how overwhelming important winning Sasuke was and it was obviously treated in a negative light (to place that much importance on Sasuke's dick).



Naruto and Sasuke's goals aren't more valid than Sakura's just because you say so. You have not given a reason as to why Sakura's goals be the only one left out while the other two get to accomplish what they want. Why do Naruto and Sasuke's goals have to be taken seriously and Sakura's isn't?

Because it's lame? Like I said, the dumbass wanting to be ninja president or having only one ambition in life as murdering someone else is also _lame_ by other people's definitions. Because it has skewed priorities? Like I said, wanting to be ninja president for attention whore reasons or wanting to kill people is also skewed (even more than getting a boyfriend). Naruto and Sasuke's goals have been, at points, ridicularised as well. In the case of Sasuke, outright told that it would only bring him misery.

These three characters matured, refined their goals and got new ones. However, it doesn't mean they have dropped what is a core of their character. Why would Sakura be the only one that got to drop that goal? Why would you consider that her mentality on chapter 3 (wanting her forehead to be praised let's forget that it was only by Sasuke for the sake of the argument) would take precedance over her mentality on chapter 3 and 4 (wanting to be acknowledged by Sasuke).

Take notice that wanting to be praised for her forehead was a comment, in passing. To be acknowledged by Sasuke is something she said that was 'all she wanted'. That means she ranked the forehead being complimented below in importance being than being acknowledged by Sasuke.



> Indeed, but as I said the goals were treated differently. Naruto's would have been treated like Sakura's if it wasn't for his backstory.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Because her goal was immature. Naruto's goal was immature too but as I said he gets a pass due to trauma.



Once more, while Sakura doesn't have this is as backstory, she makes it for development. At 181, her love is real, acknowledged by Sasuke and Naruto, several other characters, and even Kishimoto himself. While you have Naruto's reasons as backstory, you have Sakura's reasons on panel. Kishi only used different methods to get there, everything else about its treatment is the exact same.

Why is backstory > development according to you then? You cannot use sob story as an excuse because Sakura suffered enough with Sasuke leaving and in fact Naruto said he understood how she felt then. You're only saying backstory > development without giving any proper reason.



> Well to determine how decent a point that is we'd need to know how many ways of saying "weird" there are in Japanese, as well as how many ways Kishimoto uses regularly.



I've checked this before. It's the exact same kanji. I'll edit this post later with proof.

edit:  Not sure if the な means anything special, but it's interesting that it's always there, as if the same expression is always used. Like I said, not sure though.


If you're up to accept some things you have to accept others such as that, too. Honestly, I don't think they're important at all. Kushina's words aren't all that.


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## ch1p (Feb 19, 2014)

> Now as there _are_ many panels of similarity between Sakura and Kushina and furthermore NS/MinaKushi, that should provide context on how to view Kushina's words to Naruto as well. Simply put, Hinata doesn't factor in again.



You're stretching it. Sakura and Kushina being compared happened _once_.



> You think we'd actually see Naruto eating vegetables and bathing? O.o



I don't see what would be so bizarre for a page (if that) to be dedicated to Naruto eating some ramen and adding extra vegetables in it, after he met his mother and stood around with B in that island. This would establish he's serious about what she has to tell him. As it would, you know, Naruto actually stating he'll get a girl like her instead of being the only thing he didn't mention. 



> Anyway, those last words from Kushina are what she thinks is important for Naruto.



I don't doubt it. Not that the narrative cares _that_ much about it.



> Fuck I'm entirely sure we're talking about different thing still, let me reiterate;
> 
> I have no problem with Sasuke being _*a*_ goal for Sakura.
> I have a problem (and the story does to) with Sasuke being _*the*_ goal for Sakura.





The narrative also has a problem with Naruto wanting to be Hokage for attention whore purposes (both Hiruzen and Iruka express this in chapter 1, and even Naruto himself comments on this chapter 2). The narrative also has a problem with Sasuke's goals in general (or better, with the means to reach his goals). Doesn't stop either of them from accomplishing them.

The story has made more than one goal for Sakura though, so I don't see what your problem here is exactly. There is no conflict.



> Gee, you're glossing over Sakura giving up on Sasuke several times there aren't you .



When did Sakura 'give up' on Sasuke plenty of times? Like I said, Iron Country's endgame is that she couldn't kill him, such after she never gave up on him truthfully. Sakura never gave up on Sasuke, unless  counts as Naruto giving up on Sasuke. And then, oh well, amirte. 



> Simply put, nothing we've really seen from Sakura has given her a determinator status. Naruto didn't break down in tears or not know what the fuck he was doing or break down in tears because of people ignoring him. Not only that but can you really, really not see the difference between chasing after one person's romantic affections and making a village filled with people who spurn you take notice? I mean come on now.



I see the difference. However, it does not matter.

First, Naruto did cry over being ignored  so your argument is fundamentally false. but there was a point he got sick of doing it and coped by doing pranks instead, and then eventually moved on from that to working hard to be acknowledged.

Second, whether Naruto cried or not about being ignored by the village is quite irrelevant. Naruto coped with crying, then pranking. Sakura coped with crying. Lee coped by becoming Gai v2. Sasuke coped by becoming obsessed with revenge. Gaara channeled his pain into killing people (so did Nagato). That means they're different characters, with different personalities, with different coping mechanisms, nothing more.

Third, this is what your argument is all about: who suffered more should be rewarded more. Since Sakura didn't suffer enough, her aspirations and dreams don't matter enough either. What kind of bulshit is this, no offence? Furthermore, by no means the manga panders to that. After all, unquestioningly Gaara and Nagato suffered more than Naruto, and yet they're not getting rewarded more (might as well throw Itachi in this because I can). This manga is not about karma or characters getting what they deserve. This manga is about working for what you want with the exception of the prophecy nardo, holy shit does that suck, but that's not because he 'deserves' it either.



> Indeed and Sakura chasing after Sasuke has been portrayed in a better light than in chapter 4. My original point was that it simply wasn't portrayed in a good light in that chapter.



Neither was Sasuke's then, because the backstory for him was only introduced waaaaay later. And that changes nothing.



> The trust matter has not been settled, we are yet to see the follow up to Sakura's fake smile.



The way it's gonna be settled is not the way you'd like. Sakura lost the most trust she could in Iron Country (she thought there was no salvation for him), yet she still loved him and couldn't kill him. Unless Sasuke is somehow going to turn into a bigger arsehole than he was in Iron Country, then this trust matter is settled regarding whether Sakura is going to move on from Sasuke or not. Sakura is not going to. You need to find another way.



> The reasons are the same as ever, as you lot are fond of saying; love isn't rational. The reasons are all there, simply because she didn't previously shouldn't mean she won't, particularly when Naruto's all dead and shit.



Your reasoning here is that a written story doesn't need to make sense or have consistence.



> Ah yes, but it's my pairing that's currently in the cliche setting for one .
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...



The clich? has already come and went. If it had to happen, it would have been in the chapter where she did the CPR on him. Once more, you have to find another way. The princess is in another castle (if she's there at all).


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## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Kurama said:


> I'm pretty sure I already crushed this but Tumblr mobile ate my reblog.
> 
> There a bigass hole in your argument. Sakura wasn't going to kill Sasuke for Naruto. She was going to kill Sasuke for Sasuke, to prevent his further plummet into darkness, because she loves him. She knew it was likely Naruto would HATE her for that, buy she didn't.care. Her fake confession was her desperate effort to relieve her own guilt at what she felt was having burdened Naruto with the task of retrieving Sasuke. It was her way of getting him off of Sasuke's trail and avoiding telling him of the Rookies decision to deal with him themselves. I think its rather ridiculous to claim this scene as great for NS romance when it forces Sakura into a relationship with someone she does not love and  you don't even know if she'd truly go through with it. The entire scenario is contrived as fuck as it ignores that Sakura knows full damn well Naruto isn't chasing Sasuke solely because of the promise as she explained Naruto's bond to Sasuke herself in the Penis Arc. The biggest point to be taken from it is despite Naruto's achieved greatness and Sasuke's darkness Sakura still loves the latter and Naruto was not only matter of factly convinced of that but even dependent on which only serves to make the idea of him intending to pursue Sakura ridiculous.
> 
> ...



This wouldn't crush a tin can, let alone my argument. You're missing the entire point of my post. At no point have I asserted either "sacrifice = romantic love" or that Sakura loves Naruto. My post asserts that there is simply more basis for NaruSaku to happen than NaruHina.

The manga pretty much contradicts everything you posted. Sakura knew Naruto had his own reasons for chasing Sasuke, that's been evident from the very beginning, however she knew it was his promise of a lifetime to her that spurred him in the first place. She was guilty,  at least in part, because she knew Naruto was doing it for her. Kishimoto wouldn't have dedicated several pages of dialogue of Sai, who is supposed to be the oblivious one, telling Sakura that Naruto's love for her is hurting him if it didn't mean anything. There was a reason why Sakura specifically asked him to stop chasing Sasuke right before she made that fake confession, and there is a reason why he was thinking back to when he first made the promise to bring Sasuke back.


*Spoiler*: __ 










It was already too late at that point, because Naruto moved on, his motives for wanting to rescue Sasuke changed after facing Nagato and learning about the cycle of hatred. By then Sasuke was already being hunted by Kumo for allegedly kidnapping B. Retaliation seemed inevitable at that point unless he could get Sasuke to change.


*Spoiler*: __ 









The entire point of bringing up that fake confession is that, while she may not have loved Naruto, Sakura cared enough to be with him because she knew that's what he wanted. It's always been Sakura for him, he simply doesn't have eyes for anyone else. It wasn't until this point, however, that Sakura reciprocated in terms of sacrifice, i.e. she would be with him and sacrifice her own desires to that end. It's not the most romantic thing in the world, no, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.


*Spoiler*: __ 









It appears as though the vast majority of NaruHina shippers' arguments rest on the presumption that just because Hinata loves Naruto that he is somehow obligated to reciprocate, which is simply childish.

I know some NaruSaku shippers are equally guilty of this sort of presumption and think that Sakura has to love Naruto back because he loves her, but at least they have the manga on their side, i.e. proof that Sakura was willing to be in a relationship with Naruto even if she didn't love him.


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## Kurama (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> This wouldn't crush a tin can, let alone my argument. You're missing the entire point of my post. At no point have I asserted either "sacrifice = romantic love" or that Sakura loves Naruto. My post asserts that there is simply more basis for NaruSaku to happen than NaruHina.



Yea and you based your entire idea of it having more basis on this weird belief that Sakura was willing to submit to a loveless union with Naruto which somehow makes her love for him greater than Hinata's. Which is just plain counter productive.



> The manga pretty much contradicts everything you posted.



Does it really?



> Sakura knew Naruto had his own reasons for chasing Sasuke, that's been evident from the very beginning, however she knew it was his promise of a lifetime to her that spurred him in the first place.



Wrong. He was already on his way to get him back with the rescue squad, the only thing the promise did was offer more motivation and mainly clarify that he acknowledges the severity and sincerity of her love for Sasuke.



> She was guilty,   at least in part, because she Naruto was doing it for her. Kishimoto wouldn't have dedicated several pages of dialogue of Sai, who is supposed to be the oblivious one, telling Sakura that Naruto's love for her is hurting him if it didn't mean anything.


No, she mainly felt guilty because she was dependent on Naruto to solve the problem, and had been plagued with the desire to do her part since then. Last thing she wanted to hear was that she was s burden, even worse when she's at an emotional low point with her mentor in a coma and the love of her life a wanted man for crimes she can't make sense of. Kishimoto dedicated several pages of Sai deliberately taking the NaruSaku perspective that Kishi deliberately set up, for Sakura to confess using all their most popular arguments, just for Naruto to shut it all down as a lie.


[quote{There was a reason why Sakura specifically asked him to stop chasing Sasuke right before she made that fake confession, and there is reason why he was thinking back to when he first made the promise to bring Sasuke back.[/quote]


Because its been a source of guilt on her part from a contributive sense, shoehorned into some ridiculous idea that she's causing him pain cuz of his "love" for her and that she should force herself to love him to make up for it, but Naruto thankfully shuts that bullshit down.




> It was already too late at that point, because Naruto moved on, his motives for wanting to rescue Sasuke changed after facing Nagato and learning about the cycle of hatred. By then Sasuke was already being hunted by Kumo for allegedly kidnapping B. Retaliation seemed inevitable at that point unless he could get Sasuke to change.



So wait, are you saying he only decided to bring Sasuke back for his own reasons after his encounter with Nagato? His experience with his brother disciple only helped him understand Sasuke's pain to a degree, but he still needed the knowledge of Konoga's role in the massacre and Itachi's sacrifice to understand Sasuke's actions post Itachi. I don't see what this has to do with pairings.



> The entire point of bringing up that fake confession is that, while she may not have loved Naruto, Sakura cared enough to be with him because she knew that's what he wanted.



You're deliberately ignoring the guilt factor in her decision, and can't even say for sure of she'd actually go through with it if he believed her, and it still doesn't make it any less of a lie and yherefore not good for NS at all.




> It's always been Sakura for him, he simply doesn't have eyes for anyone else.



You can't state this as absolute fact as of 559/615.




> It wasn't until this point, however, that Sakura reciprocated in terms of sacrifice, i.e. she would be with him and sacrifice her own desires to that end. It's not the most romantic thing in the world, no, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.



Then there is no point. There's no way you can seriously think you can twist a guy acknowledging a girls love his best friend as genuine, promising to bring him back, and her in turn being led to feeling guilt and burdened by his perceived "love" at a low point to where she tries to lie in returning his feelings to get him off his best friends trail so she could take the burden of the fate of the man she loves on her own shoulders as a positive for the two "sacrificers" romantically.



> It appears as though the vast majority of NaruHina shippers' arguments rest on the presumption that just because Hinata loves Naruto that he is somehow obligated to reciprocate, which is simply childish.



Wrong. Its not just because she loves him, its because Kishi has chosen to give them increasingly positive and progressive interaction off the back of her genuine confession.



> I know some NaruSaku shippers are equally guilty of this sort of presumption and think that Sakura has to love Naruto back because she loves her, but at least they have the manga on their side, i.e. proof that Sakura was willing to be in a relationship with Naruto even if she didn't love him.



But that's a just a dumb stance to take when NaruHina in comparison has progressive interactions broadcasting a positive reception of her affections on Naruto's part with Hinata's confidence increasing as the story goes on in direct response. I mean seriously how can you really say an unwilling to pursue Naruto and Sakura submitting to a relationship with a man she does not love because of guilt can compete with that?


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## pizza_blade (Feb 19, 2014)

I know it's anime but the last Naruto movie was widely known as a project that Kishimoto personally involved himself in and that one was so chock-full of NarutoxSakura moments. 

If that's not a clear sign of how Kishimoto intended to conclude all the romance triangles/quadruples involving Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke/Hinata then I don't know what is. I mean, it's the one that he personally supervised/involved and it's like, it's so blatant.

And anyways, it's the only one being alluded to by Naruto's own dead-father-come-back-to-life, so.... yeah hm. Speaking of, I found it rather funny that some were so adamant on making Minato's word as "girl friend" and not "girlfriend" even though the word in Japanese itself was pretty blatant in making it as "girlfriend"

To persistently thinking it's meant as "a girl who is a friend" is so silly and the very definition of grasping at straws.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this 


*Spoiler*: __ 





Dragonball

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 433
monicker of being a sage

Chapter 519
monicker of being a sage




Rave

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 67
monicker of being a sage

Chapter 296
monicker of being a sage




FMA

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 13
monicker of being a sage
monicker of being a sage

Chapter 108
monicker of being a sage




Naruto

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 630
monicker of being a sage

Maybe?







I wonder if I forgot any.

Here come the excuses


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## emachina (Feb 19, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> I know it's anime but the last Naruto movie was widely known as a project that Kishimoto personally involved himself in and that one was so chock-full of NarutoxSakura moments.
> 
> If that's not a clear sign of how Kishimoto intended to conclude all the romance triangles/quadruples involving Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke/Hinata then I don't know what is. I mean, it's the one that he personally supervised/involved and it's like, it's so blatant.
> 
> ...



All those NaruSaku moments, which I can't recall any other than when Sakura angrily stormed away from her parents telling Naruto they were going on a date so she had an excuse to leave her house, intermingled with Sakura fawning like a schoolgirl whenever Sasuke was around. Boy, that really seals the deal that Sakura is totally falling for Naruto.

And I'm one of the ones who pointed out the word Minato used for "girlfriend" was kanojo. Yes, it means girlfriend in Japanese, but it can also mean female friend. Does it in the situation when Minato asked Naruto about Sakura? I don't know. But seeing as how when Naruto saw a pregnant Kurenai and immediatly concluded she was as fat as Chouji, I'm not putting it past Naruto to be that dense.


----------



## PAWS (Feb 19, 2014)

emachina said:


> And I'm one of the ones who pointed out the word Minato used for "girlfriend" was kanojo. Yes, it means girlfriend in Japanese, but it can also mean female friend. Does it in the situation when Minato asked Naruto about Sakura? I don't know. But seeing as how when Naruto saw a pregnant Kurenai and immediatly concluded she was as fat as Chouji, I'm not putting it past Naruto to be that dense.



Had that been the case he would have asked Sakura why she hit him. Naruto completely understood what he was asking and answered how he felt, just accept it already.


----------



## pizza_blade (Feb 19, 2014)

emachina said:


> All those NaruSaku moments, which I can't recall any other than when Sakura angrily stormed away from her parents telling Naruto they were going on a date so she had an excuse to leave her house, intermingled with Sakura fawning like a schoolgirl whenever Sasuke was around. Boy, that really seals the deal that Sakura is totally falling for Naruto.
> 
> And I'm one of the ones who pointed out the word Minato used for "girlfriend" was kanojo. Yes, it means girlfriend in Japanese, but it can also mean female friend. *Does it in the situation when Minato asked Naruto about Sakura? I don't know*. But seeing as how when Naruto saw a pregnant Kurenai and immediatly concluded she was as fat as Chouji, I'm not putting it past Naruto to be that dense.



To the 1st paragraph: huh. I must have seen a different movie than you than, a movie where Naruto did not even don his father's robe and, interestingly, also once again carried Sakura bridal style. I must have imagined stuff or maybe there are really folks out there really skilled in making fake Naruto movie.

And the bolded above is so, so, so silly. Do you honestly, really honestly, logically think what Minato meant was "a girl that is a friend" at that time? What's more, that Naruto misunderstood his father's question? Are you serious? I mean *come on.*


----------



## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 19, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> To the 1st paragraph: huh. I must have seen a different movie than you than, a movie where Naruto did not even don his father's robe and, interestingly, also once again carried Sakura bridal style. I must have imagined stuff or maybe there are really folks out there really skilled in making fake Naruto movie.
> 
> And the bolded above is so, so, so silly. Do you honestly, really honestly, logically think what Minato meant was "a girl that is a friend" at that time? What's more, that Naruto misunderstood his father's question? Are you serious? I mean *come on.*



Especially considering he thought about t about Kushina not even a SECOND later.

You know his WIFE...aka his ROMANTIC partner.

I've had kicks to the balls that were more subtle than that parallel.


----------



## Kakugo (Feb 20, 2014)

Kurama said:


> But that's a just a dumb stance to take when NaruHina in comparison has *progressive interactions broadcasting a positive reception of her affections on Naruto's part with Hinata's confidence increasing* as the story goes on in direct response. I mean seriously how can you really say an unwilling to pursue Naruto and Sakura submitting to a relationship with a man she does not love because of guilt can compete with that?





Positive reception, positive reception, positive reception... Really, your "wordy" arguments are quite the broken record and have no substance. Giving words of encouragement doesn't mean Naruto has suddenly began to look at Hinata in a romantic light, nor has there been any evidence of such. Naruto hasn't demonstrated to have even a drop of romantic interest in Hinata, *period*. Nevermind the fact that he reconfirmed (yet again) that he's in love with Sakura, and this time, to his f-a-t-h-e-r.



emachina said:


> Yes, it means girlfriend in Japanese, but it can also mean *female friend*.



No, it doesn't also mean "female friend". A few of us went over this already, but feel free to check out some of our earlier posts for a detailed rundown of the translation. It is what it is and people just need to accept it.


----------



## emachina (Feb 20, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> To the 1st paragraph: huh. I must have seen a different movie than you than, a movie where Naruto did not even don his father's robe and, interestingly, also once again carried Sakura bridal style. I must have imagined stuff or maybe there are really folks out there really skilled in making fake Naruto movie.
> 
> And the bolded above is so, so, so silly. Do you honestly, really honestly, logically think what Minato meant was "a girl that is a friend" at that time? What's more, that Naruto misunderstood his father's question? Are you serious? I mean *come on.*



I wasn't looking for NaruSaku moments. So I didn't see what you saw. I especially didn't see a "Bridal carry", I saw a guy pick up a girl and not hold her under his arm, over his shoulder, or around his waist. Sorry. What I did see was Sakura fawning over Sasuke. 

And do I believe Naruto might have interpereted "Is that girl your friend" instead of "Is that your girlfriend". Sure, I can buy it. I'm not a Japanese language scholar, I'm more of a five lessons in on Christmas present Rosetta Stone. Did I say "Naruto absolutly misunderstodd! NaruHina rulz!"? No. But I am one who realizes Kishi make Naruto's dumb as a brick at times for comedic relief, and this might have been an example of that. And, at the same time, I also admit I could be 100% wrong. 

edit: And Tom Servo, interesting you're NaruSaku but you post Dragonball as proof. Didn't Goku marry Chichi? The somewhat shy girl? Who had, like no screen time in the original series? Hmm. Oh well, must be thinking of that other Dragonall series.


----------



## LesExit (Feb 20, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Had that been the case he would have asked Sakura why she hit him. Naruto completely understood what he was asking and answered how he felt, just accept it already.


I too think Naruto understood. Minato clearly meant girlfriend. Thats why Naruto's answer made Sakura angry.

I don't see how Naruto would possibly think that Sakura was his _actual_  girlfriend or anywhere near it, he's not that stupid.  

Theres an importance to the lines, "if you're splitting hairs", or "that's more or less it...". He knew he was _stretching_ it, and that it wasn't _actually_ true.
Then we have a later panel with Naruto saying he'd never poke fun at Sakura again. Implying that he's intentionally gone out of his way to rouse her before. I'm pretty sure Naruto saw that moment the same way the scene was handled, as a joke...He was being _Naruto_. The point of what he said was to poke fun at her, and Sakura gave him what she thought he deserved...a bonk on the head XD


----------



## PAWS (Feb 20, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I too think Naruto understood. Minato clearly meant girlfriend. Thats why Naruto's answer made Sakura angry.
> 
> I don't see how Naruto would possibly think that Sakura was his _actual_  girlfriend or anywhere near it, he's not that stupid.
> 
> ...



He isnt talking about the girlfriend thing, Naruto always pokes fun at Sakura's strength and here she is making a crater in the ground so he says he will never make fun of her anymore.


----------



## LesExit (Feb 20, 2014)

PAWS said:


> He isnt talking about the girlfriend thing, Naruto always pokes fun at Sakura's strength and here she is making a crater in the ground so he says he will never make fun of her anymore.


Pokes fun at her _strength_...? ...Huh?


----------



## Drunkenwhale (Feb 20, 2014)

Thought I'd never come back to this thread, too busy with my own shit... Can't get my own story worked on tonight I guess...



Kurama said:


> Wrong. Its not just because she loves him, its because Kishi has chosen to give them increasingly positive and progressive interaction off the back of her genuine confession.




Kinda sound like a broken record Kurama.

**Sigh** Look man, call it all the quazi-bull you wish but their interactions don't feel romantic. The general desire of NH is simply that it happens because Hinata is "such a sweet girl" and "understanding" and insert comments about her body and that she "deserves him" for all the hardships she had to deal with.

As for her confession, man, look at the circumstances. I'll give you that the feelings were genuine but damn did the situation seemed suicidal - the last act to get her bottled up feelings off her chest before croaking.



Kurama said:


> But that's a just a dumb stance to take when NaruHina in comparison has progressive interactions broadcasting a positive reception of her affections on Naruto's part with Hinata's confidence increasing as the story goes on in direct response.




Too bad there isn't anything in Naruto's head telling us about which girl he preferred... OH RIGHT!!! There's the bit about his old man asking about the girl that ISN'T Hinata. So much for those progressive interactions that all just so happen to take place on a battlefield and never in a relaxed setting.

NaruHina has no real merit or worth for Naruto - It's Hinata who gets the whole prize. What does Hinata mean for Naruto? What does she do that no one else even compare to?



I'm tired, I want to get back to my own characters...


----------



## SoulFire (Feb 20, 2014)

The RtN movie is hardly canon, nor was Kishi all that deeply involved in it. He provided the underlying theme (the importance of the bonds of family and friends), character sketches and the idea of the switched personalities of the rookies (the most interesting and least explored part of the entire sorry thing), but the bulk of the story was written by others. Aside from being a badly written tale with many elements that made no sense (especially regarding Menma), the movie regressed Sakura to her twelve year old (immature and self-centered) mindset in order to explore the importance of those bonds.  It was a poor excuse for a movie with no real romantic vibe at all. Nothing about it counts as squat.

And are we really back to beating the dead horse of the 'gf' panels again? No matter how they are viewed, those panels are primarily there for comedic affect and an intro into the nostalgic Team 7 vibe.


----------



## Kakugo (Feb 20, 2014)

PAWS said:


> He isnt talking about the girlfriend thing, Naruto always pokes fun at Sakura's strength and here she is making a crater in the ground so he says he will never make fun of her anymore.



Exactly. Naruto had a pretty straight face when he answered Minato's question, so clearly that wasn't a joke (nor has he ever joked about his feelings for her). This isn't the first time that Naruto has similarly marveled/was caught off gaurd by Sakura's strength.


*Spoiler*: __ 











emachina said:


> And do I believe Naruto might have interpereted "Is that girl your friend" instead of "Is that your girlfriend". Sure, I can buy it. I'm not a Japanese language scholar, I'm more of a five lessons in on Christmas present Rosetta Stone. Did I say "Naruto absolutly misunderstodd! NaruHina rulz!"? No. But I am one who realizes Kishi make Naruto's dumb as a brick at times for comedic relief, and this might have been an example of that. And, at the same time, I also admit I could be 100% wrong.



As I've already explained, there is no way for Naruto to have misinterpreted Minato's question. The Japanese language doesn't break down the words individually as it does with English. Refer to the quotes below.



Kakugo said:


> I find it rather amusing that a select few are still relentlessly trying (to no avail) to twist the context of Minato's question and Naruto's answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Sys said:


> I would like to point out something, as you seem to misunderstand that part a little bit.
> 
> The ambiguity that may appear in the English translation between "girlfriend" and "girl friend" actually only exists in English languange because the word "girlfirend" is composed of the words "girl" and "friend".
> But, as it has been pointed out by translators, the word used in Japanese - kanojo 彼女-  is not composed of the words "girl" and "friend"  and therefore it can not be mistaken or interpreted for anything else than what it means : lover (source ).
> ...


----------



## emachina (Feb 20, 2014)

That's not what the guy on the other forum I go to, who claims to speak Japanese, and circles kanji says. But, I've freely said I could be wrong.


----------



## PAWS (Feb 20, 2014)

emachina said:


> That's not what the guy on the other forum I go to, who claims to speak Japanese, and circles kanji says. But, I've freely said I could be wrong.



He may just be an ignorant NH who just doesnt want to except it.


----------



## Kakugo (Feb 20, 2014)

emachina said:


> That's not what the guy on the other forum I go to, who claims to speak Japanese, and circles kanji says. But, I've freely said I could be wrong.



Well, please feel free to send that dude this way to speak with those of us who know the language. Cause I can assure you, he is either lying out the wazoo or simply doesn't want to acknowledge the truth.


----------



## pizza_blade (Feb 20, 2014)

emachina said:


> I wasn't looking for NaruSaku moments. So I didn't see what you saw. I especially didn't see a "Bridal carry", I saw a guy pick up a girl and not hold her under his arm, over his shoulder, or around his waist. Sorry. What I did see was Sakura fawning over Sasuke.
> 
> And do I believe Naruto might have interpereted "Is that girl your friend" instead of "Is that your girlfriend". Sure, I can buy it. I'm not a Japanese language scholar, I'm more of a five lessons in on Christmas present Rosetta Stone. Did I say "Naruto absolutly misunderstodd! NaruHina rulz!"? No. But I am one who realizes Kishi make Naruto's dumb as a brick at times for comedic relief, and this might have been an example of that. And, at the same time, I also admit I could be 100% wrong.





emachina said:


> That's not what the guy on the other forum I go to, who claims to speak Japanese, and circles kanji says. But, I've freely said I could be wrong.



Alright, I stand to my opinion about the movie, but let's just abandon that and speak strictly about the manga then.

To the point: even without *any* knowledge of Japanese language it is very, and I do mean *very easy* to surmise what is going on just by going on through what happening on that one page alone. I just *don't understand* how people could misinterpret something so very simple so very badly. 



SoulFire! said:


> And are we really back to beating the dead horse of the 'gf' panels again? No matter how they are viewed, those panels are primarily there for comedic affect and an intro into the nostalgic Team 7 vibe.



For something that is "primarily there for comedic effect" many seem to trying their hardest to analyze it to the point of unnecessarily and illogically trying to twist what Minato said to Naruto.

And *you* may be thinking that it's "primarily there for comedic effect" but one can be as equally valid to say that it *may* be an outlet for Kishimoto to say something to the audience as well and thus a valid point of discussion.



Kakugo said:


> Exactly. Naruto had a pretty straight face when he answered Minato's question, so clearly that wasn't a joke (nor has he ever joked about his feelings for her). This isn't the first time that Naruto has similarly marveled/was caught off gaurd by Sakura's strength.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Even with stuff like this, there are still people who counter with stuff like, "Yeah, well, that's your interpretation man".

Truly boggles the mind.


----------



## SoulFire (Feb 20, 2014)

> Drunkenwhale said:
> 
> 
> > Kinda sound like a broken record Kurama.
> ...


----------



## pizza_blade (Feb 20, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> ey, I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up! Whether you like it or not, there are various interpretations floating around, and I find that _everyone_ is very, very invested in defending/promoting their version.
> 
> Yeah. *I* do believe it is just a scene of comic relief. It *may * be an outlet for Kishi to say something, and then again it may just be much ado about nothing.



Fair enough.

To be honest, I just did not like your previous "Are we talking about this again" post because it felt as if you're making faces to me since I was the person who brought it up, that I was breaking some sort of rules or something. Like, "Oh here we go again this newcomer is so tiresome."

Speaking of discussing something that happened a long while ago;

Sakura's fake confession, when it first came out, makes me go, "WTF Sakura," but the subsequent chapter after that and more consideration afterwards turned my position around. It's just lovely to see how far Sakura's willing to go to protect Naruto being harmed emotionally and physically--reminded me to the forever endearing POTL scene (I literally shed tears the first time I read it, hahaha)

Hopefully I am not breaking any rules or anything for bringing up something that I am sure have been discussed to death, but whatever eh...


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I'm not speaking of parallels. Those are irrelevant as A) they can be done for SS / NS B) they don't fill in for plot anyway.
> 
> -snip word count-



Talking about how Kishi writes the romance bond effectively leads to parallels, which is simply drawing out similarities between two pairings.

The thing is with all those pairings; we've never actually seen someone change their feelings. Make no mistake, for any pairing to become canon someone is currently going to need to change their feelings.



> Suppose that most platonic development actually belongs to NS (I don't care to discuss either way nor does it matter). As said above, there is nothing in the story that indicates most platonic development indicates romance.



Also NS has a lot of scenes that wouldn't be considered platonic when considered by themselves, I don't think that should be overlooked even though Sakura still loves Sasuke.



> I actually think there's no ambiguity, she loved Dan and not Jiriaya, end of story. However, I'll say ambiguous for the sake of the argument.
> 
> -snip-



Tsunade was going to give Jiraiya a chance when he got back, it does suggest to me that she loved him in the end.



> Sakura's dream to be acknowledged by Sasuke was never portrayed as foolish as you'd like. It was thanks to that dream that A) Naruto stated he liked Sakura, B) did the PoaLT, C) called her out for being a liar. To say that Sakura's dream is '_foolish_' is to say three major points of the NS pairing is also foolish. After all, _Naruto_ took it seriously, it's the base for his romantic feelings for her, to make grand promises, and to say he actually knows her 'better than that'.



[img=http://i.imgur.com/86Q3U0b.png]totes[/img] [img=http://i.imgur.com/zV1qaqM.png]respectable.[/img]



> Sakura was never shown to have moved on from her dream. At most you have Iron Country and we all know she couldn't do it anyway, so at the end of the day, Sakura was never shown to have successfully moved on. She thought she could do it, but she could not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Tom Servo (Feb 20, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> To be honest, I just did not like your previous "Are we talking about this again" post because it felt as if you're making faces to me since I was the person who brought it up, that I was breaking some sort of rules or something. Like, "Oh here we go again this newcomer is so tiresome."
> 
> ...




I would like to point out that we don't know if her confession was a lie.

The lying part was that she said she loved Naruto more than Sasuke, which we find out is false. We don't how she truly feels about Naruto (of-course there is that moment with the love letter fodder) If you look at the whole Yamato scene she isn't aware of how she herself truly feels about him (one of the databooks even flat out say this however I know we don't count databooks since theya remade by Kishi's team and not Kishi himself)

Therefore the confession can't really be used or against any of the shipping arguments because it simply just cancels itself out.


----------



## BankaiLegend3135 (Feb 20, 2014)

At this point, I think it's clear that we can definitely say that Sakura is _more_ than friends with Naruto, but _less_ than lovers.

Whether or not that goes completely full circle remains to be seen.


----------



## pizza_blade (Feb 20, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> I would like to point out that we don't know if her confession was a lie.
> 
> The lying part was that she said she loved Naruto more than Sasuke, which we find out is false. We don't how she truly feels about Naruto (of-course there is that moment with the love letter fodder) If you look at the whole Yamato scene she isn't aware of how she herself truly feels about him (one of the databooks even flat out say this however I know we don't count databooks since theya remade by Kishi's team and not Kishi himself)
> 
> Therefore the confession can't really be used or against any of the shipping arguments because it simply just cancels itself out.



True, if you view the chapter all by its lonesome.

However, for myself personally the chapter immediately afterwards, where Naruto was being told by Sai about Sakura's real intention behind her action, for me, that showed the reasoning behind why Kishimoto put that confession scene in the first place.

Also, I want to throw this as well: for me, SasuSaku is 100% dead the moment Sasuke tried to kill Sakura before Naruto swoop in to rescue her. I just don't get the logic of trying to form a healthy romantic relationship with someone who once tried to kill you with no hesitation whatsoever. But I guess Shounen logic, eh @________@


----------



## emachina (Feb 20, 2014)

PAWS said:


> He may just be an ignorant NH who just doesnt want to except it.





> Well, please feel free to send that dude this way to speak with those of us who know the language. Cause I can assure you, he is either lying out the wazoo or simply doesn't want to acknowledge the truth



Or, he could simply be wrong. Ever been wrong? Happened to me.


But, now that I've hung around a bit I think I'm going to bow out of this here thread. Shipping is some serious business!


----------



## PAWS (Feb 20, 2014)

emachina said:


> Or, he could simply be wrong. Ever been wrong? Happened to me.
> 
> 
> But, now that I've hung around a bit I think I'm going to bow out of this here thread. Shipping is some serious business!



I said maybe. I dont ser how you can leave, once I got into the wars I havent been able to stop, I have to see it through lol


----------



## emachina (Feb 20, 2014)

PAWS said:


> I said maybe. I dont ser how you can leave, once I got into the wars I havent been able to stop, I have to see it through lol



Lol. Oh, I still support my ship, and I'll see it too the end. It just seems like I'm coming in prepared for a knife fight and everyone else is decked in Gundam mechs or piloting Unit-02. XD

When the shipping wars start up again in the library, I'll be there. They're more my speed.


----------



## SoulFire (Feb 20, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> To be honest, I just did not like your previous "Are we talking about this again" post because it felt as if you're making faces to me since I was the person who brought it up, that I was breaking some sort of rules or something. Like, "Oh here we go again this newcomer is so tiresome."
> 
> ...


Sorry if it sounded like I was picking on you! I don't believe in such things, really. Just a few pages back in the thread the 'gf' comments were taking up volumes in discussion, and things were just going in circles. 

You aren't breaking any rules!  I would actually expect nothing less of Sakura. Naruto is her friend, her team mate and one of her precious people. Not to mention that she is a damn fine medic whom I think would do her damnedest to save anyone in her care. It's just in her nature.

I love newbies, whatever their pairing preference--welcome!! 


Tom Servo said:


> I would like to point out that we don't know if her confession was a lie.
> 
> The lying part was that she said she loved Naruto more than Sasuke, which we find out is false. We don't how she truly feels about Naruto (of-course there is that moment with the love letter fodder) If you look at the whole Yamato scene she isn't aware of how she herself truly feels about him (one of the databooks even flat out say this however I know we don't count databooks since theya remade by Kishi's team and not Kishi himself)
> 
> Therefore the confession can't really be used or against any of the shipping arguments because it simply just cancels itself out.


I think what was made obvious by Sakura's confession was that she has indeed grown to love Naruto, but that she is not _in love_ with him.

Btw, I love Tom Servo (and Crow)! I still miss MST3K!


emachina said:


> Lol. Oh, I still support my ship, and I'll see it too the end. It just seems like I'm coming in prepared for a knife fight and everyone else is decked in Gundam mechs or piloting Unit-02. XD
> 
> When the shipping wars start up again in the library, I'll be there. They're more my speed.


Oh, don't take off so soon! We're a bunch of pussycats here, honest (just gotta dodge the claws )!!


----------



## emachina (Feb 20, 2014)

Well....when the impending shipping war of 2014 happens around August. I'll be a conscientious objector. Until then, I'll try to keep up with all this.


----------



## Benhazard (Feb 20, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> I know it's anime but the last Naruto movie was widely known as a project that Kishimoto personally involved himself in and that one was so chock-full of NarutoxSakura moments.
> 
> If that's not a clear sign of how Kishimoto intended to conclude all the romance triangles/quadruples involving Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke/Hinata then I don't know what is. I mean, it's the one that he personally supervised/involved and it's like, it's so blatant.
> 
> ...



then, go and tell that to DB and DBZ fandom about GT. 



Tom Servo said:


> I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm just...  
i kinda love how you skip the fact that all A) the girls are the main key factors, not the guys. B) none of the 3? partys involved ends in a bad light. (uncortable sweat drop/ wtf faces/ end up suportting opposite pairings/gets fucked up instead) or should i make a list of random guys who makes these jokes and get fucked, and never return the guy affection?
also, forget the same can be applied to others pairings, like naruto , letter nin and other people supporting or/and have emphaty with sakura fellings for sasuke, or the same with hinata in relation to naruto.


----------



## Super Chief (Feb 20, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Yea and you based your entire idea of it having more basis on this weird belief that Sakura was willing to submit to a loveless union with Naruto which somehow makes her love for him greater than Hinata's. Which is just plain counter productive.



You make sacrifices for the people you care about. Naruto sacrificed his own feelings so that Sakura could be with Sasuke. To that end he even made a promise of a lifetime to bring him back. He's never been once been selfish when it comes to Sakura. Not even when he was his loud, obnoxious self in Part I. Tsunade noticed it the first time she met Sakura.


*Spoiler*: __ 













Kurama said:


> Does it really?



It obviously does and this one liner shows you have nothing to counter with.



Kurama said:


> Wrong. He was already on his way to get him back with the rescue squad, the only thing the promise did was offer more motivation and mainly clarify that he acknowledges the severity and sincerity of her love for Sasuke.



No, you're just being flat out ridiculous. That promise Naruto made was a huge deal, it was really the point where he knew for certain that Sakura wasn't going to choose him, so he decided to at least make her happy by bringing back Sasuke. The guilt Sakura felt settled in almost immediately because she finally came to realisation (though it was building up to that when she found out Naruto saved her from Gaara) that he has always been there for her.


*Spoiler*: __ 












And when I say he has always been there for her that is actually what it means. He's been there for Sakura physically from the start, always looking out for her even though she didn't appreciate him at the start, even though she loved someone else - it didn't matter to him that he wouldn't get what he wanted, so long as she was happy, he'd be fine with that.



Kurama said:


> No, she mainly felt guilty because she was dependent on Naruto to solve the problem, and had been plagued with the desire to do her part since then. Last thing she wanted to hear was that she was s burden, even worse when she's at an emotional low point with her mentor in a coma and the love of her life a wanted man for crimes she can't make sense of. Kishimoto dedicated several pages of Sai deliberately taking the NaruSaku perspective that Kishi deliberately set up, for Sakura to confess using all their most popular arguments, just for Naruto to shut it all down as a lie.



This is a wilfully ignorant misinterpretation of the facts and you know it.




Kurama said:


> Because its been a source of guilt on her part from a contributive sense, shoehorned into some ridiculous idea that she's causing him pain cuz of his "love" for her and that she should force herself to love him to make up for it, but Naruto thankfully shuts that bullshit down.



You're missing the point. It wasn't guilt and guilt alone that spurred Sakura to make the false confession. She wanted to relieve Naruto of his promise, something she had tried early on in Part II already, but knowing it wouldn't be enough she tried to offer him more.


*Spoiler*: __ 









She openly acknowledged his love for her in Konoha.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Naruto wouldn't accept a fake confession however because he knew it wasn't true.



Kurama said:


> So wait, are you saying he only decided to bring Sasuke back for his own reasons after his encounter with Nagato? His experience with his brother disciple only helped him understand Sasuke's pain to a degree, but he still needed the knowledge of Konoga's role in the massacre and Itachi's sacrifice to understand Sasuke's actions post Itachi. I don't see what this has to do with pairings.



Initially Naruto's determination to return Sasuke to Konoha was twofold. One) he made a promise of a lifetime to Sakura, and two) he cared about Sasuke like a brother. When it no longer became about the promise or his own feelings, it was too late for Sakura to stop him even if she revoked her promise. In her mind, the only way she could free Naruto was to kill Sasuke so he wouldn't have to, and to be with him because she knew that's what he wanted. However, the fact he knew that's what she didn't want and thus denied himself and her, shows just to what extreme they will go for another. Even if it's one-sided love. They do, in fact, deeply care about one another.



Kurama said:


> You're deliberately ignoring the guilt factor in her decision, and can't even say for sure of she'd actually go through with it if he believed her, and it still doesn't make it any less of a lie and yherefore not good for NS at all.



This is utter horseshit. You're the one pinning it all on guilt and deliberately ignoring the fact Sakura cares about Naruto a lot, enough so that she would be willing to sacrifice her own happiness to make him happy, the same way he did for her.

That mutual sacrifice and caring, even if it's only romantic in nature from one side, has a lot more basis for growing into a romantic relationship than NaruHina, a relationship which doesn't even come close. Naruto has never put himself out there for Hinata the way he has for Sakura, he has never once shown her the same level of devotion and love.



Kurama said:


> You can't state this as absolute fact as of 559/615.



Unless you took what I said as literal, then yes I can. Absolutely. There is zero basis for Naruto even regarding Hinata in that light. They're not even particularly close. She admires him, and he respects her. That's it. Anything else is purely wishful thinking on your part.



Kurama said:


> Then there is no point. There's no way you can seriously think you can twist a guy acknowledging a girls love his best friend as genuine, promising to bring him back, and her in turn being led to feeling guilt and burdened by his perceived "love" at a low point to where she tries to lie in returning his feelings to get him off his best friends trail so she could take the burden of the fate of the man she loves on her own shoulders as a positive for the two "sacrificers" romantically.



There is a point, you are simply refusing to acknowledge it. Mutual sacrifice, respect, care and devotion make for a much stronger basis for an actual relationship than one-sided, unrequited love that hasn't been reciprocated in any way whatsoever.



Kurama said:


> Wrong. Its not just because she loves him, its because Kishi has chosen to give them increasingly positive and progressive interaction off the back of her genuine confession.



You mean the confession Naruto blew off? You mean how he's never actually shared more than a few panels with her at a time? You're reaching and you know it.



Kurama said:


> But that's a just a dumb stance to take when NaruHina in comparison has progressive interactions broadcasting a positive reception of her affections on Naruto's part with Hinata's confidence increasing as the story goes on in direct response. I mean seriously how can you really say an unwilling to pursue Naruto and Sakura submitting to a relationship with a man she does not love because of guilt can compete with that?



NaruHina has had about a handful of moments of which only one was in a romantic context - confession that went unresolved and ultimately ignored. That is a fart in the wind compared to all the NaruSaku moments we've seen thus far.

Furthermore, Kishimoto loves to draw parallels in his manga. MinaKushi, ObiRin and JirTsu all parallel perfectly with NaruSaku. It's not endgame yet but it's all but confirmed that is how he will end the pairing war.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 20, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> I know it's anime



The anime has no weight in canon.



Tom Servo said:


> I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this



If the naruto anime has no weight in canon, what makes you think other unrelated anime would have?



LesExit said:


> I too think Naruto understood. Minato clearly meant girlfriend. Thats why Naruto's answer made Sakura angry.



Indeed. It would be for the best if people stopped denying this already.



> I don't see how Naruto would possibly think that Sakura was his _actual_  girlfriend or anywhere near it, he's not that stupid. (...) Then we have a later panel with Naruto saying he'd never poke fun at Sakura again.



This as well. Naruto's either delusional or fucking around. The former, is just . The latter is what he does with his life. After all, pranking is his hobby (or used to be).



PAWS said:


> He isnt talking about the girlfriend thing, Naruto always pokes fun at Sakura's strength and here she is making a crater in the ground so he says he will never make fun of her anymore.



Yes, and the girlfriend comment applies. Unless you think Naruto is delusional to think they're dating when they're clearly not. The other option is that he's playing around.



Mr Horrible said:


> Talking about how Kishi writes the romance bond effectively leads to parallels, which is simply drawing out similarities between two pairings.
> 
> The thing is with all those pairings; we've never actually seen someone change their feelings. Make no mistake, for any pairing to become canon someone is currently going to need to change their feelings.



Look... how to say this. The parallels have the "Sakura" -> "Sasuke" every time. The only one which doesn't fit the mould is MinaKushi and AsuKure, with neither being compared to any pairing in canon.

It doesn't help your pairing. It _never_ did.



> Also NS has a lot of scenes that wouldn't be considered platonic when considered by themselves, I don't think that should be overlooked even though Sakura still loves Sasuke.



I have never dismissed context, so this means nothing to me.

For example, Sasuke was blushing when Sakura said she liked him. Considered by itself, he likes her, because characters blush around those that they like. However, the context here is that, you know, blushing was the sort of thing character did back in the day for anything.



> Tsunade was going to give Jiraiya a chance when he got back, it does suggest to me that she loved him in the end.



It suggests to you, it doesn't suggest to me. What I see is literally what she said. That he should drop his tough attitude around her when he came back. That doesn't mean they would have a relationship.



> [img=http://i.imgur.com/86Q3U0b.png]totes[/img] [img=http://i.imgur.com/zV1qaqM.png]respectable.[/img]



We've been through this. First, Kakashi's comment is that she has her priorities skewed, not that she's a disgrace. On the other hands, several characters have considered Naruto's dream a disgrace and Sasuke's the bane of his existance. It doesn't stop either of them to achieve them or prove others wrong.



> . This reminds me of the argument that Sasuke made Sakura stronger by being a complete dick to her.



Sasuke made Sakura stronger by _leaving_. So did Naruto for that matter. Chapter 34 didn't lead to anything but introduce Sakura's own issues with being a ninja and the following 36, that Sasuke pays close attention to her, knows her well enough to see when her mood changes (which Naruto never does outside of her issues with Sasuke) and that Sasuke believes she's an asset despite her flaws.



> No I want the whole conversation to move on from the earliest chapters, I originally only brought up the forehead thing to you because you were quoting things from chapter 4.



Remember why I quoted things from chapter 4. You were saying a throway panel from Kushina mattered. Like I told you, chapter 4, and even chapter 540 are examples of 'throwaway' panels that could be used for other pairings. It is useles to go after this, as much as it's useless to go after parallels.



> Actually Sakura cutting off her hair was a huge moment for her. Not to mention Naruto woke up after everything went down so there were no threats still around.



Sasuke noticed the hair and the bruises on her face. Naruto noticed she cut her hair, but didn't notice the bruises on her face. Ino and Sasuke noticed Sakura was hiding her feelings when she said she had cut her hair as an image change. Naruto believed her story fully. Sasuke shows a deeper awawreness and understanding of Sakura in that scene, that only her best friend / rival has. Naruto only notices the superficial details. This is a theme that is recurrently used.



> I never claimed Sakura fell in love with Sasuke over it.



Then why would Sakura care that "Sasuke" complimented her forehead?



> They were _back in chapter 4_.



Precisely. Sakura's love for Sasuke grew and evolved as well. She's not the same character in chapter 4 and 181.



> Because it's pathetic.



Being president for attention is also pathetic.



> I'm just saying Sakura's goal there was treated differently to Naruto's and Sasuke's.



It wasn't and you have failed to provide a single reason as to why you think this way.



> I'll leave this to other people, although I don't recall any translators thinking it was notable at the time.



I don't see why they would think it's notable. Why would they remember script from 300 chapters before? This is noticed by shippers, who go for the details, not by translators.



> In the desert that is the romantic subplot, once is pretty huge. Not to mention the other _very_ coincidental similarities Sakura and Kushina shared.



It's not pretty huge. Karin was also compared to Kushina, and she was done so _twice_.



> I feel like you're trying to make me prove a negative here.



Not so. What I'm saying is that the narrative doesn't care about the 'girl like me'. You have failed to provide me reasons as to why the narrative cares about the 'girl like me' panel.



> Hiruzan and Iruka's comments were both prior to chapter 4 and Naruto had no problems with them. Sasuke's goal was shown negatively (particularly by Kakashi) and look where he has ended up. The only reason Sasuke isn't going to die is because of Naruto.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Sasuke's was clearly angsty, not to mention the story hasn't shown Sasuke's dream to be a good one.



If Sasuke had never went after his brother, he would have never found out about the truth. In a way, this was needed, whether you like it or not. Sasuke's goal has never been bashed by itself. but the way he has done it yes. For example, Kakashi had no issues with Shikamaru avenging Asuma, he even aided him. What he had was Sasuke's methods, his obsession with it and his 'no matter the cost' approach.

Much like chapter 4, since you spoke of it before in this post. It's not Sakura liking Sasuke that is the problem. It's that Sakura liking Sasuke takes precedance over her ninja career. He even makes the comparison, which highlights this.

The exact same thing for Naruto. It's "wrong" for me to want to be ninja president for the sake of attention whorism. It's quite fine for him to want to be ninja president to build a better future for those under his tenure.

The series is not as black and white as you'd like it to be.



> Sakura gave up on Sasuke at the end of part 1 only for Naruto to renew her hope (hospital after retrieval arc). Then she gave up on redeeming Sasuke again in the Iron Country, just because she still loved who he used to be doesn't mean she thought he could be redeemed.



Sakura didn't give up on Sasuke. She said it was alright for Naruto to have let him escape. Thos are not the same thing. In Iron Country, like I said, deep down Sakura didn't give up on him or she would have been able to kill him but she couldn't.

Furthermore, giving up on Sasuke coming back or being redeemed is not the same as giving up on her feelings for him. You can love someone who is gone or has died. Tsunade is poster girl and Obito is poster boy within the universe.



> You keep thinking Sakura is this big important part of Sasuke's redemption when she simply hasn't factored in for the most part. At this point in the story she is simply waiting for Naruto to do it, as that's what she decided in Iron Country.



I have never said Sakura is a big part of Sasuke's redemption. What I've defended, since even before Itachi was ressurrected, was that his brother should be the one bringing out that. I still have those posts backed up btw, if you'd like to see.

Whether Sakura is waiting for Naruto to do it is a matter of opinion. She recently told Naruto to fuck off when he implied he'd take care of Sasuke himself, so there's your opinion. Furthermore, I don't see how that changes anything either. Much like I don't see how 'giving up' changes anything.



> You claimed the trust matter was settle when it clearly hasn't been. I don't know where Sakura's false smile is leading but it's obviously a loose plot point still.



I didn't say it's already over, because it clearly isn't since it has not been fixed yet. What I said was that we've already gone through this scenario and nothing changed.



> I think there are ways to fall in love with someone that don't involve them proving themselves to you.



Then there's even less reason as to why Sakura hasn't fallen in love with Naruto.



> Scene's not over Ch1p.



It may not be, but it's already too late thematically.



Tom Servo said:


> I would like to point out that we don't know if her confession was a lie.



"I hate people who lie to themselves." and then Sai saying that her objective wasn't to confess. Furthermore, Sakura thought of Sasuke and him alone, when asked about the guy she liked.


----------



## TItroops (Feb 20, 2014)

lol, chapter 4...really?  Ever since that chapter, Sakura has never said anything about that dream...ever. Not to mention she never even said anything in the end, it was just some comic relief shit( the argument you guys like using so much) of her looking at Sasuke. If its to be taken seriously then when she said the thing she dislikes is Naruto must be taken seriously then. Also, Sasuke himself said his revenge wasn't a dream.


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## ch1p (Feb 20, 2014)

TItroops said:


> lol, chapter 4...really?  Ever since that chapter, Sakura has never said anything about that dream...ever. Not to mention she never even said anything in the end, it was just some comic relief shit( the argument you guys like using so much) of her looking at Sasuke. If its to be taken seriously then when she said the thing she dislikes is Naruto must be taken seriously then. Also, Sasuke himself said his revenge wasn't a dream.



We were talking about chapter 4 because Mr Horrible is keen on saying that throaway panels would have relevance, such as the Kushina one. What I told him was that every pairing can use throaway panels then, like that in chapter 4 or the one in 540. Please read the whole argument before butting in.


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## Mael (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> We were talking about chapter 4 because Mr Horrible is keen on saying that throaway panels would have relevance, such as the Kushina one. What I told him was that every pairing can use throaway panels then, like that in chapter 4 or the one in 540. Please read the whole argument before butting in.



Silly ch1pwich you know better than to try to dismiss your attempt to parallel.  I mean if it works for you then it's all good amirite, if it works with Hinata or something that's Sakura and Sasuke? 

Horrible's argument does make sense because we're talking about an author that is massive on such things.  He tries to tie everything together, as significant as possible, no matter how awful he is at it.  You can't say X is throwaway and irrelevant but then go ahead with Hinata and say Y is.

Also it wouldn't hurt to show a little kindness to someone trying to offer their two cents.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> "I hate people who lie to themselves." and then Sai saying that her objective wasn't to confess. Furthermore, Sakura thought of Sasuke and him alone, when asked about the guy she liked.



The lie was that she liked Naruto more than Sasuke, not that she liked Naruto at all.

Again we already confirmed that she loves Naruto but just isn't aware of her actual feelings, we know she loves someone she only assumes its Sauce.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Look... how to say this. The parallels have the "Sakura" -> "Sasuke" every time. The only one which doesn't fit the mould is MinaKushi and AsuKure, with neither being compared to any pairing in canon.
> 
> It doesn't help your pairing. It _never_ did.



The only pairing I can think of that works for SS is KakaRin. When you have Kakashi making such negative comments about Sasuke I'm not sure it's one that I'd want.

Just an FYI here; Yahiko was canonically like Naruto in terms of personality. the Nagato<->Naruto thing only came about because they are both students of Jiraiya and searching for a path to peace.

Also MinaKushi is easily the most developed canon side pairing, which to me makes parallels to them quite powerful.



> It suggests to you, it doesn't suggest to me. What I see is literally what she said. That he should drop his tough attitude around her when he came back. That doesn't mean they would have a relationship.



This feels like the argument that Naruto's words to Sai in ~457 didn't confirm anything .



> We've been through this. First, Kakashi's comment is that she has her priorities skewed, not that she's a disgrace. On the other hands, several characters have considered Naruto's dream a disgrace and Sasuke's the bane of his existance. It doesn't stop either of them to achieve them or prove others wrong.



_I do not get how anyone can say this is respectable_;
[sp][/sp]



> Sasuke made Sakura stronger by _leaving_. So did Naruto for that matter. Chapter 34 didn't lead to anything but introduce Sakura's own issues with being a ninja and the following 36, that Sasuke pays close attention to her, knows her well enough to see when her mood changes (which Naruto never does outside of her issues with Sasuke) and that Sasuke believes she's an asset despite her flaws.



God, arguing Sasuke leaving is a good thing for Sakura has to be one of the more detestable SS arguments. Also don't forget that Sakura wanted to train to catch up to both Naruto and Sasuke.

Also, where the hell does Naruto not think Sakura is an asset? We've seen many panels showing Naruto being impressed with Sakura's abilities.



> Remember why I quoted things from chapter 4. You were saying a throway panel from Kushina mattered. Like I told you, chapter 4, and even chapter 540 are examples of 'throwaway' panels that could be used for other pairings. It is useles to go after this, as much as it's useless to go after parallels.



_Why the hell are you treating Kushina's last words as a throwaway panel?_

You're comparing a line from some random fodder ninja that can actually be used as 'foreshadowing' either way to Kushina's advice to Naruto? I don't even care about which girl he picks as my original point here was that the line significantly decreases the chance of an open ending.



> Sasuke noticed the hair and the bruises on her face. Naruto noticed she cut her hair, but didn't notice the bruises on her face. Ino and Sasuke noticed Sakura was hiding her feelings when she said she had cut her hair as an image change. Naruto believed her story fully. Sasuke shows a deeper awawreness and understanding of Sakura in that scene, that only her best friend / rival has. Naruto only notices the superficial details. This is a theme that is recurrently used.



Sasuke also had the considerable advantage of sensing the Sound Gennins' killing intent . Yes, Naruto can be a little dumb, especially in part 1, however he most certainly has his positives which are also shown there (that Sasuke lacks). Naruto also 'gets' Sakura at other times too (PoaL, Ino/Sakura fight, etc).

Not only that but it should be argued that the Sasuke that has a 'deeper understanding' of Sakura is the same Sasuke that callously tried to murder her ~3 times. 



> Then why would Sakura care that "Sasuke" complimented her forehead?



I'm not saying she does, I just pointed out the very similar nature of it to the MinaKushi scene.



> Precisely. Sakura's love for Sasuke grew and evolved as well. She's not the same character in chapter 4 and 181.



Yes! My point was that back in chapter 4 it wasn't a good thing, however it did change.



> Being president for attention is also pathetic.



Covered this, Naruto gets a pass in the eyes of the audience because of his childhood.



> It wasn't and you have failed to provide a single reason as to why you think this way.



Mostly because of;

Kakashi's reaction.
The inherent awfulness of having your sole purpose be a boy who doesn't care about you.



> I don't see why they would think it's notable. Why would they remember script from 300 chapters before? This is noticed by shippers, who go for the details, not by translators.



TakL is usually pretty keyed into these things, it can't be that notable if he missed it. Not only that but 2ch wouldn't have cared about it either or we would have heard this argument sooner.



> It's not pretty huge. Karin was also compared to Kushina, and she was done so _twice_.



Karin isn't involved in a possible pairing with Naruto. Not to mention she's an Uzumaki, so I would think the comparison natural, especially when she has the same ability as Kushina.



> Not so. What I'm saying is that the narrative doesn't care about the 'girl like me'. You have failed to provide me reasons as to why the narrative cares about the 'girl like me' panel.



The narrative cares because it's the last advice from the mother of the main character to her son.



> If Sasuke had never went after his brother, he would have never found out about the truth. In a way, this was needed, whether you like it or not. Sasuke's goal has never been bashed by itself. but the way he has done it yes. For example, Kakashi had no issues with Shikamaru avenging Asuma, he even aided him. What he had was Sasuke's methods, his obsession with it and his 'no matter the cost' approach.



Sure, but those are very close to being the same thing.



> Much like chapter 4, since you spoke of it before in this post. It's not Sakura liking Sasuke that is the problem. It's that Sakura liking Sasuke takes precedance over her ninja career. He even makes the comparison, which highlights this.



Yes.



> The exact same thing for Naruto. It's "wrong" for me to want to be ninja president for the sake of attention whorism. It's quite fine for him to want to be ninja president to build a better future for those under his tenure.
> 
> The series is not as black and white as you'd like it to be.



Naruto had realised this prior to chapter 4.



> Sakura didn't give up on Sasuke. She said it was alright for Naruto to have let him escape. Thos are not the same thing. In Iron Country, like I said, deep down Sakura didn't give up on him or she would have been able to kill him but she couldn't.



[sp][/sp]
It's pretty clear she's talking about his promise to bring Sasuke back there rather than his inability to retrieve him the first time. The chapter is 236 if you want to peruse it btw.



> Furthermore, giving up on Sasuke coming back or being redeemed is not the same as giving up on her feelings for him. You can love someone who is gone or has died. Tsunade is poster girl and Obito is poster boy within the universe.



Indeed but this wasn't about giving up her feelings for Sasuke, it was about giving up on his redemption.

Oh and btw Sakura _did_ give up on Sasuke in the Kage Summit arc, the only thing that stopped her killing him was her feelings for who he used to be.



> I have never said Sakura is a big part of Sasuke's redemption. What I've defended, since even before Itachi was resurrected, was that his brother should be the one bringing out that. I still have those posts backed up btw, if you'd like to see.



Nah it's going to be Naruto, that's pretty much the purpose of part 2 aside from the Akatsuki. This fight/redemption has been foreshadowed out the ass.



> Whether Sakura is waiting for Naruto to do it is a matter of opinion. *She recently told Naruto to fuck off when he implied he'd take care of Sasuke himself*, so there's your opinion. Furthermore, I don't see how that changes anything either. Much like I don't see how 'giving up' changes anything.



Link? Her words after the Kage Summit arc seemed pretty clear.



> I didn't say it's already over, because it clearly isn't since it has not been fixed yet. What I said was that we've already gone through this scenario and nothing changed.



And now we're in the twilight years of the manga where the romantic subplot does actually have a decent shot at being wrapped up. I'd personally be nervous whenever any pairing gets a chance at it now (as you said I think it'll come from sudden realization).



> Then there's even less reason as to why Sakura hasn't fallen in love with Naruto.



/Shrug, we'll see I guess.



> It may not be, but it's already too late thematically.



Forgive me if I don't take your word for it .


----------



## Mael (Feb 20, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> The lie was that she liked Naruto more than Sasuke, not that she liked Naruto at all.
> 
> Again we already confirmed that she loves Naruto but just isn't aware of her actual feelings, we know she loves someone she only assumes its Sauce.



Not to mention she's pretty much a basket case who was at a time reduced to a role of cheerleader between these two.  She lied to Nardo about her feelings and then became a weeping piece of shit whenever Sauce was mentioned, so she's really fucking confused and frankly adding her with anything Hinata-related is bound for retardation because Lord knows people actually try to think the two are in competition.

And on a side note, I fail to see, regardless of interpretation, how Kushina's parting words with Naruto are completely "throwaway."  That's ignoring a well-established plot device.


----------



## Naiki (Feb 20, 2014)

Overall, I think that Sakura still has lingering feelings albeit not very strong in comparison to the ones she have for Naruto. On the other hand, I think that the current standing with Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous. 

There are times where the interaction between them can be easily interpreted as more than platonic and the notion that Sakura may be developing budding romantic feelings and a tender spot for the Uzumaki which has been pointed out by several characters throughout the series. 

What's also obvious is the fact that the love Naruto feels for Sakura is still remnant. On the other hand, the recent development between him and Hinata has shown that he has developed a gratuitous and appreciative respect for the girl. Naruto realizes that Hinata is willing to place her life on the line for him as any comrade would and that was a huge step from the "weird, gloomy, and dark" girl that he described her as in the academy. 

I really can't see Naruto falling in love with Hinata at this point because there wasn't nearly enough mutual development and time placed on their relationship for Naruto to really get a feel for who Hinata really is as a person as well as what her family life is like and her world in entirety. The same can be said for Hinata. Hinata is more or less oblivious to the wishes and desires of Naruto. Hinata's main goal is to stand by Naruto's side (romantically or in the way that comrades do, that's up for interpretation). Sakura's goal, however is to protect Naruto and keep him alive whereas he can accomplish his dreams at all costs. 

^ This lets you know that Sakura is looking out for the best interests of Naruto and she has been ever since part I. That is another characteristic that not only shows that Sakura deeply cares for Naruto but also about  him as a person.


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## ch1p (Feb 20, 2014)

Mael said:


> Silly ch1pwich you know better than to try to dismiss your attempt to parallel.  I mean if it works for you then it's all good amirite, if it works with Hinata or something that's Sakura and Sasuke?
> 
> Horrible's argument does make sense because we're talking about an author that is massive on such things.  He tries to tie everything together, as significant as possible, no matter how awful he is at it.  You can't say X is throwaway and irrelevant but then go ahead with Hinata and say Y is.
> 
> Also it wouldn't hurt to show a little kindness to someone trying to offer their two cents.



No, I said all of throwaway panels are irrelevant, including Hinata's and Sakura's. If people want to take a throwaway seriously, then they need to accept that everyone can do the same for opposite pairings.



Tom Servo said:


> The lie was that she liked Naruto more than Sasuke, not that she liked Naruto at all.



You're cherry picking on what is a lie and what wasn't, withough any kind of indication that this is the case. Until further notice, everything Sakura said about switching feelings (and that includes falling in love with Naruto) is a lie. That is after all, the phrase Naruto responded to.



> Again we already confirmed that she loves Naruto but just isn't aware of her actual feelings, we know she loves someone she only assumes its Sauce.



When was this? In b4 ambiguous comment in the databook.



Mr Horrible said:


> The only pairing I can think of that works for SS is KakaRin. When you have Kakashi making such negative comments about Sasuke I'm not sure it's one that I'd want.
> 
> Just an FYI here; Yahiko was canonically like Naruto in terms of personality. the Nagato<->Naruto thing only came about because they are both students of Jiraiya and searching for a path to peace.
> 
> Also MinaKushi is easily the most developed canon side pairing, which to me makes parallels to them quite powerful.



DanTsu as well, since this the comparison between the two was made. Sasuke is not Nawaki in this comparison and Sakura was only in love with Sasuke back then, so he can only be parallel to Dan. Naruto has been said to have inherited Dan's dream, but let's not forget that when asked about it, Dan thought he was Nawaki.

YahiKonan was also paralleled. Sakura to Konan and Yahiko to Sasuke (this was Kishimoto's answer to when the editors asked him to make a comparison image between the rain orphans and team 7. You say personalities don't match, but that's quite irrelevant, since Kishimoto wrote it this way anyway and Konan is not like Sakura to begin with. What matters here are roles. Yahiko / Sasuke as the teammate that was "lost" and Nagato / Naruto as the 'savior' (directly parallel within the story as well, the latter).

I've seen NarSak fans making parallels with less. Like AsuKure, because he is a wind user and she is talented with genjutsu. Or MinaKushi, with Naruto functioning as a blend of Kushina / Minato and Sakura as redundant Kushina. These were never parallel in canon material, in any way, shape or form, like the former two were (YahiKonan was.

And yes, KakaRin.

However, like I said, parallels are stupid and shouldn't be used. I say this while holding all the successful cards from the parallels. After all 2/3 of these were confirmed reciprocated and the one that wasn't has been made ambiguous lately. Read this: matters nothing.



> This feels like the argument that Naruto's words to Sai in ~457 didn't confirm anything .



If that's all you have to say about it, then you can't convince me that JirTsu is supposed to be a 'thing'.



> _I do not get how anyone can say this is respectable_;
> [sp][/sp]



It's called comic relief. Like Naruto listing his whole obsession with ramen (which he never dropped either) or wanting to be president because he's an attention whore. Do you take Sakura hitting Naruto seriously? When she calls him an idiot / moron?



> God, arguing Sasuke leaving is a good thing for Sakura has to be one of the more detestable SS arguments. Also don't forget that Sakura wanted to train to catch up to both Naruto and Sasuke.



I have never said it was a good or a bad thing. Sakura could have grown without him leaving. What I said, it's that narratively, Sakura's shown to take a position over her ninja growth only when Sasuke leaves for good (and Naruto fails to bring him back, that she took that apprenticeship because she wants to protect the both of them (which includes Sasuke), and that she said they'd bring back Sasuke together (which includes herself.



> Also, where the hell does Naruto not think Sakura is an asset? We've seen many panels showing Naruto being impressed with Sakura's abilities.



I never said Naruto didn't think Sakura of an asset. What I said was that Naruto doesn't notice Sakura's mood changes unless they are about Sasuke.



> _Why the hell are you treating Kushina's last words as a throwaway panel?_



Because Kushina's words are a throwaway pane. A) They haven't been referenced again. B) Naruto deliberatly didn't repeat that when he enumerated all the things he would better in his life. C) They actually mean nothing, since Kushina's wish for Naruto to get a girl like her will not influence Sakura in any way.

I throw them away, much like you throw away Sakura's goals in chapter 4 even though her goal was actually mentioned again in 181.



> You're comparing a line from some random fodder ninja that can actually be used as 'foreshadowing' either way to Kushina's advice to Naruto? I don't even care about which girl he picks as my original point here was that the line significantly decreases the chance of an open ending.



I don't see the difference, between Kushina's words and the fodder ninja. The only one which exists is that Kushina has more plot value. That's irrelevant though. Fodder ninja's words were actually quite unnecessary.



> Sasuke also had the considerable advantage of sensing the Sound Gennins' killing intent . Yes, Naruto can be a little dumb, especially in part 1, however he most certainly has his positives which are also shown there (that Sasuke lacks). Naruto also 'gets' Sakura at other times too (PoaL, Ino/Sakura fight, etc).



I don't blame Naruto for being stupid. I am only mentioning that the narrative used Sasuke in a telling way, noticing Sakura was hurt and then that she was lying about her hair, while Naruto didn't notice Sakura was hurt and that she was lying about her hair. That it's telling of his usual clueless about Sakura outside of Sasuke.

Naruto got Sakura at PoaL because of Sasuke. Naruto got Sakura at I/S fight while mentioning Sasuke, lol.



> Not only that but it should be argued that the Sasuke that has a 'deeper understanding' of Sakura is the same Sasuke that callously tried to murder her ~3 times.



That's you avoiding the subject. 



> I'm not saying she does, I just pointed out the very similar nature of it to the MinaKushi scene.



But the MinaKushi scene is about Kushina giving a fuck about someone complimenting her hair while the "Nar"Sak scene is about Sakura only giving a fuck if it's Sasuke who compliments her forehead. Context matters.



> Yes! My point was that back in chapter 4 it wasn't a good thing, however it did change.



But do you agree that Naruto and Sasuke wasn't either, yet you don't doubt they'll able to accomplish them anyway?



> Covered this, Naruto gets a pass in the eyes of the audience because of his childhood.



Sakura should as well. She's _twelve_ and naive about the world, which is something Naruto and Sasuke are not.



> Mostly because of;
> 
> Kakashi's reaction.
> The inherent awfulness of having your sole purpose be a boy who doesn't care about you.


So the same as Naruto and Sasuke
[*]Kakashi's reaction (Iruka and Hiruzen's reaction in the case of Naruto, plus Kakashi again in chapter whatever when he ties Sasuke in a tree and then Iron Country)
[*]]The inherent awfulness of having your sole purpose to be an attention whore or murdering someone.


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## ch1p (Feb 20, 2014)

> TakL is usually pretty keyed into these things, it can't be that notable if he missed it. Not only that but 2ch wouldn't have cared about it either or we would have heard this argument sooner.



You're grasping at straws here. What I said is that the kanji used is the exact same. People can call Kushina's statement ironic if they so like, because what she said doesn't influence anything.



> Karin isn't involved in a possible pairing with Naruto. Not to mention she's an Uzumaki, so I would think the comparison natural, especially when she has the same ability as Kushina.



Why the hell is she not involved? What makes you think she can't come out of nowhere and be paired with Naruto? After all, Kushina said it!



> The narrative cares because it's the last advice from the mother of the main character to her son.



It does not if it's not mentioned again. Asuma too had parting words for Ino. Don't lose to Sakura in medical ninjutsu. Oh boy, is that going to be accomplished?



> Sure, but those are very close to being the same thing.



They are not. Naruto's goal for being Hokage is disgraceful, selfish and shallow if he only wants it for the attention (and funny as hell, I loved part 1 Naruto. However, if he wants it to build a better future, then this is a very noble goal.

Honour is a big thing in Japan. Sasuke restoring is also a good goal, if he so may choses. It's only when he choses questionable methods to achieve this that things are bad.

Sakura's problem isn't that she likes a boy, it's that she puts it as her first priority. If she puts it down in her priority list, things are cool. This is what you refuse to accept. It isn't Sakura getting Sasuke that the narrative condemns. It's that she only thought of him or gave him priority. You don't need to be ASS to agree with this. In fact, I agree with this, and I'm an SS fan.



> Yes.



Then, what is the problem again.



> Naruto had realised this prior to chapter 4.



Sakura had been introduced in the chapter just before.



> [sp][/sp]
> It's pretty clear she's talking about his promise to bring Sasuke back there rather than his inability to retrieve him the first time. The chapter is 236 if you want to peruse it btw.



Exactly. Sakura is not giving up on her feelings for Sasuke. She's giving up on Naruto's promise to bring him back. You known, a promise she one page later spurns because she says they'll do it together, a promise that haunts her in the penis arc, and a promise that made her fall into a guilt trip later on. It's not about her feelings for Naruto. It's about making Naruto promise. She thinks it makes her a burden (with reason) and she tried many times to relieve him from this.



> Indeed but this wasn't about giving up her feelings for Sasuke, it was about giving up on his redemption.



_How?_



> Oh and btw Sakura _did_ give up on Sasuke in the Kage Summit arc, the only thing that stopped her killing him was her feelings for who he used to be.



If that was true, she would have killed him. After all, she says she's killing him because she loves him. If she didn't kill him it was for another reason. She can't do it because deep inside her she believes he can be saved. She just doesn't know how.



> Nah it's going to be Naruto, that's pretty much the purpose of part 2 aside from the Akatsuki. This fight/redemption has been foreshadowed out the ass.



Oh, I'm not saying Naruto won't have his part, but Sakura will have hers too (and Kakashi too, if Kishi isn't a dick). I'd rather take my word for it, since I was actually right the first part (Itachi).



> Link? Her words after the Kage Summit arc seemed pretty clear.



Naruto implying that he'll be the one to take care of Sasuke. Sakura telling him that she's also a member of Team 7. Like I said, I'll take my word for it. 



> And now we're in the twilight years of the manga where the romantic subplot does actually have a decent shot at being wrapped up. I'd personally be nervous whenever any pairing gets a chance at it now (as you said I think it'll come from sudden realization).



I doubt it will be sudden as you're implying, but that's alright.



> /Shrug, we'll see I guess.



Again, you have no counter after being put in the corner.



> Forgive me if I don't take your word for it .



It's alright.



Naiki said:


> Overall, I think that Sakura still has lingering feelings albeit not very strong in comparison to the ones she have for Naruto. On the other hand, I think that the current standing with Sakura's feelings for Naruto are ambiguous.
> 
> There are times where the interaction between them can be easily interpreted as more than platonic and the notion that Sakura may be developing budding romantic feelings and a tender spot for the Uzumaki which has been pointed out by several characters throughout the series.
> 
> ...



Sakura cares about Naruto yes, but not romantically. Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone from chapter 540. This happened one day ago in manga timeline. Your only card is 'sudden realisation', like Mr. Horrible there. You can't say this can't happen with NH or SS as well though. After all, 'sudden realisations' are not only the result of development.

Naruto and Hinata have had plenty of platonic development lately and it's been a step up every single time it happens. On the other hand, NarSak has been on the same place for the majority of time. I don't see why it's so impossible to think that Naruto could fall for Hinata.


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## Drunkenwhale (Feb 20, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> > The interactions that have been taking place between Naruto and Hinata throughout the war arc involve universal elements looked on as romantic in nature from the 'in your eyes' comments to the touching of the face, the hand hold and the squeezing of said hand in unison with a shared gaze. They can certainly be viewed as evidence of a change in the way Naruto has began to view Hinata.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> DanTsu as well, since this the comparison between the two was made. Sasuke is not Nawaki in this comparison and Sakura was only in love with Sasuke back then, so he can only be parallel to Dan. Naruto has been said to have inherited Dan's dream, but let's not forget that when asked about it, Dan thought he was Nawaki.



Haha, good one. Naruto/Sasuke were compared to Dan/Nawaki because they are Sakura's two special people. Suggesting Sasuke parallels to Dan when the latter was all about saving lives is frankly absurd .



> YahiKonan was also paralleled. Sakura to Konan and Yahiko to Sasuke (this was Kishimoto's answer to when the editors asked him to make a comparison image between the rain orphans and team 7. You say personalities don't match, but that's quite irrelevant, since Kishimoto wrote it this way anyway and Konan is not like Sakura to begin with. What matters here are roles. Yahiko / Sasuke as the teammate that was "lost" and Nagato / Naruto as the 'savior' (directly parallel within the story as well, the latter).



For me personality trumps being 'lost'. Hell in that spread Naruto has pretty much the same expression as Yahiko . I believe I said Naruto has similarities with both Yahiko and Nagato btw.



> I've seen NarSak fans making parallels with less. Like AsuKure, because he is a wind user and she is talented with genjutsu. Or MinaKushi, with Naruto functioning as a blend of Kushina / Minato and Sakura as redundant Kushina. These were never parallel in canon material, in any way, shape or form, like the former two were (YahiKonan was).



Idc about AsuKure arguments, however Naruto does parallel to both his parents, there's been far too many moments of both to say otherwise. Then we have Minato cannonically saying Sakura reminds him of Kushina, it's _really_ not too hard to see where NS is coming from.

As I said previously YahiKonan would fall down a bit for SS due to Yahiko being pretty much the same character as Naruto .



> And yes, KakaRin.
> 
> However, like I said, parallels are stupid and shouldn't be used. I say this while holding all the successful cards from the parallels. After all 2/3 of these were confirmed reciprocated and the one that wasn't has been made ambiguous lately. Read this: matters nothing.



As I said before, Kishi draws parallels between everything in his story so it's natural to look at the pairing ones. 



> Because Kushina's words are a throwaway pane. A) They haven't been referenced again. B) Naruto deliberatly didn't repeat that when he enumerated all the things he would better in his life. C) They actually mean nothing, since Kushina's wish for Naruto to get a girl like her will not influence Sakura in any way.



I think we've exhausted the possibilities of this point.



> I throw them away, much like you throw away Sakura's goals in chapter 4 even though her goal was actually mentioned again in 181.



*goal, and I didn't.



> I don't see the difference, between Kushina's words and the fodder ninja. The only one which exists is that Kushina has more plot value. That's irrelevant though. Fodder ninja's words were actually quite unnecessary.



Fodder nin's words are very natural;
"wanna go out with me?"
"no sorry I have someone I like"
"Oh, good luck then"
It's not exactly like it had to be shoehorned in there .

And yes plot relevance is important, especially when a big character only has a few chapters.



> That's you avoiding the subject.



True, but lucky for me we are not held to simply part 1.



> But the MinaKushi scene is about Kushina giving a fuck about someone complimenting her hair while the "Nar"Sak scene is about Sakura only giving a fuck if it's Sasuke who compliments her forehead. Context matters.



From a story standpoint you have to admit they are very similar though. I'm also more then ready to move on from this point as my heart was never really in it here.



> But do you agree that Naruto and Sasuke wasn't either, yet you don't doubt they'll able to accomplish them anyway?



Sure looks that way. Good luck putting Sakura's chapter 4 dream on that level though .



> So the same as Naruto and Sasuke
> 
> Kakashi's reaction (Iruka and Hiruzen's reaction in the case of Naruto, plus Kakashi again in chapter whatever when he ties Sasuke in a tree and then Iron Country)
> The inherent awfulness of having your sole purpose to be an attention whore or murdering someone.



I don't agree. 



ch1p said:


> You're grasping at straws here. What I said is that the kanji used is the exact same. People can call Kushina's statement ironic if they so like, because what she said doesn't influence anything.



You're claiming significance because a word was used twice and I'm the one grasping at straws? Burden of proof is most certainly on you here and that means you need to prove significance.



> Why the hell is she not involved? What makes you think she can't come out of nowhere and be paired with Naruto? After all, Kushina said it!



Because it'd be poor story telling? I mean anything could potentially happen in the story but that doesn't mean everything is worth consideration.



> It does not if it's not mentioned again. Asuma too had parting words for Ino. Don't lose to Sakura in medical ninjutsu. Oh boy, is that going to be accomplished?



Ino damn well tried, this is more a case of which foreshadowing is stronger though (Sakura wins through being the second coming of Tsunade).



> Sakura's problem isn't that she likes a boy, it's that she puts it as her first priority. If she puts it down in her priority list, things are cool. This is what you refuse to accept. It isn't Sakura getting Sasuke that the narrative condemns. It's that she only thought of him or gave him priority. You don't need to be ASS to agree with this. In fact, I agree with this, and I'm an SS fan.



This was my point all along.



> Exactly. Sakura is not giving up on her feelings for Sasuke. She's giving up on Naruto's promise to bring him back. You known, a promise she one page later spurns because she says they'll do it together, a promise that haunts her in the penis arc, and a promise that made her fall into a guilt trip later on. It's not about her feelings for Naruto. It's about making Naruto promise. She thinks it makes her a burden (with reason) and she tried many times to relieve him from this.



*Sakura says Naruto is the only one who can bring Sasuke back*
*Naruto PoaL's, Sakura cheers up*
*Naruto fails and returns alone*
*Sakura tells it's alright that he failed and she looks dejected and shit*
*Naruto is adamant his promise still stands*
*Sakura cheers up and tells Naruto they'll do it together*

Sakura gave up on getting Sasuke back in that hospital scene, it doesn't fit with your interpretation.



> _How?_



Because they are two different things?



> If that was true, she would have killed him. After all, she says she's killing him because she loves him. If she didn't kill him it was for another reason. She can't do it because deep inside her she believes he can be saved. She just doesn't know how.



She thought she could kill him despite (and because of) her love for him. At not point does she think about redemption in that sequence in 484 and it's only once Naruto arrives and makes his statements does she look happy again. I feel like your scenario is a bit convoluted without any direct proof tbh.



> Naruto implying that he'll be the one to take care of Sasuke. Sakura telling him that she's also a member of Team 7. Like I said, I'll take my word for it.



Do you not get the context of that scene? Naruto tells his mind!Itachi that he'll take care of Sasuke and all of Team 7 step up to defeat their enemy and prove their worth to be Hokage. There are numerous unresolved issues regarding Sasuke and this scene is nowhere near as straight forward as the one at the end of the Kage Summit.



> I doubt it will be sudden as you're implying, but that's alright.



Probably not, I'm terrible at predicting how things happen.



> Again, you have no counter after being put in the corner.



More like that's a whole other can of worms that I don't really want to get into right now.


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## Naiki (Feb 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> *Sakura cares about Naruto yes, but not romantically.* Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone from chapter 540. This happened one day ago in manga timeline. Your only card is 'sudden realisation', like Mr. Horrible there. *You can't say this can't happen with NH or SS as well though.* After all, 'sudden realisations' are not only the result of development.
> 
> Naruto and Hinata have had plenty of platonic development lately and it's been a step up every single time it happens. *On the other hand, NarSak has been on the same place for the majority of time.* I don't see why it's so impossible to think that Naruto could fall for Hinata.




There are hints that Sakura's feelings for Naruto teeter on the borderline of romantic and platonic. There is an ambiguity of her feelings that I don't think Sakura herself understands. Could it be that she is slowly developing romantic inclination for Naruto but she doesn't yet understand it? This can be backed up by her startled, yet attentive expression when Yamato makes the statement about the magnitude of her feelings being the thing that matters in the end. 

There wouldn't have been a sudden realisation from Sakura that she's falling in love with Naruto since it's been hinted at by Yamato and Sai, somewhat, early in part II that she might be unconsciously developing said feelings. If anything, it would be upcoming events and further development that could give clarity to the feelings that Sakura hold for Naruto. 

Right now, there is no clarity on Sakura's feelings. The only thing that we have is her word, which is that she loves Naruto (confession). It is unclear whether she was telling the truth about that or lying, but it is very accurate in regards to the reasons listed. What we do know is that she was lying about her love for Sasuke. 

So, no. My only card isn't 'sudden realisation', but 'clarity' and 'distinguishing platonic from romantic' because Sakura's interactions with Naruto are a mixture of both. 

Hell, I'm sure that she's aware of these feelings hence the confession, but I don't think she quite understands which one she feels more than the other or which one it is that she feels the strongest. Does she love Naruto as just a close friend/teammate or does she love him like a lover/boyfriend?

I don't think she knows.

The thing wrong with NH and SS is that love interest of the one with the romantic feelings haven't exchanged any type of interactions with the said character that hint that their feelings are a bit more than platonic. The love interest of these two pairings have never had their feelings for the opposite person questioned or placed under discussion like Sakura has. Naruto's feelings for Hinata were never discussed or question and Sasuke's feelings for Sakura were never placed under discussion. 

On another note, neither one of their feelings were ever hinted at being romantic or 'gentle' towards the other person like Sakura's has. Because of the numerous hints and the spotlight being on Sakura's feelings more than once, it places a bit of ambiguity to Sakura's feelings for Naruto. 

As for the platonic development between Naruto and Hinata, honestly, I think the development between Hinata and Naruto is pretty much over. Naruto is grateful to her and respects her greatly as a fellow comrade, just as Hinata would want from someone she considers her idol and role model. The development I think that Kishimoto had in store in regards to Naruto --> Hinata is that he gradually sees her as someone courageous, a failure who never gives up and someone worthy of respect. Because, remember, Naruto didn't think that of her in the beginning. He thought she was weird and gloomy, but that's why Kishimoto is showing us that Naruto respects Hinata as an equal comrade because she has earned it.

This is just my humble opinion, but I think that Naruto falling in love with Hinata without an romantic development so suddenly when he is just beginning to really respect her and appreciate her kind of ruins the beauty of his acknowledgement of her as a strong person and her inner growth from someone who used to cry and give up all of the time to someone brave enough to give her life for the person she loves. Even if he doesn't feel the same way, Naruto would still hold that respect for her deep down inside because of her chivalry and willingness to die for someone important to them. That would explain why Naruto never addressed the romantic motives behind her sacrifice after the confession, but he did acknowledge the bravery in the act of her defending someone she loves. 

When you say that NarSak has been the same for the majority of the time, I have to highly disagree with that. Since part I, Sakura and Naruto's bond has strengthened to the point where they are selfless when it comes to each other. The motive behind the confession was based upon how horrible she felt that she was the one causing Naruto the most pain. Sakura grew from hating Naruto to developing strong feelings for him that might have surpassed her own 'love' for Sasuke.

I'm pretty sure that their relationship has developed the most out of all three. Also, theres a miniature buildup you can analyze to see how far they've come:


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## SoulFire (Feb 21, 2014)

Drunkenwhale said:


> But no inner thoughts. No refusal to his old man when Minato referred to Sakura as his girlfriend a mere few chapters later, and slight jealousy about being unnoticed when he helped save Sakura over Sasuke... Nothing inexplicable or a firm confirmation that his views towards Hinata have changed at all outside admiration - no exclamation about how they'll stand by each other from then on, nothing further beyond the hand holding scene to infer partnering with her after passing the Kyuubi chakra to everyone else, and she falls into the background immediately after, only to be brought in again with the rest of Naruto's peers to help with an attack with Rasengan.


Really now, how often have we had inner thoughts from Naruto about his romantic feelings for any girl? The closest we've ever gotten was Sai's flashback, which comes second hand and still doesn't let us into Naruto's head. I don't think we will see exclamations, confirmations or proclamations with the war ongoing. Just isn't the right time.

Not surprising to see Hinata return to the sidelines as the long awaited Team 7 reunion loomed, not to mention all of the Team 7 drama currently taking place. It is finally Sakura's time to shine, as it should be.

The old Team 7 schtick is just that. Naruto and Sasuke display their rivalry, with Naruto seeking attention and Sasuke and Sakura making the usual type of responses. The gf nonsense is just that and is much ado about nothing.



> I'm sure plenty of people have their own reasons, the sexual attractiveness thing is just the argument I see the most.


Interesting, because as a NH fan who hits several different forums, I just don't come across a great deal of that type discussion all that often. Yeah, guys like boobs and will mention it from time to time, but guys also like butts and I've seen similar praise for Sakura's fine little fanny. But it isn't dominant in the praise or appreciation of either girl. Boys will be boys. 



> Eh... Fair enough. Everything I see about Hinata or NH from a outside standpoint usually reinforces the boobs thing, and quite often mind you, which is why we as detractors mock it so openly. (Even from people at times who consider themselves "true" fans)



Don't know where you're looking. I consider such fixation an anomaly and certainly not the norm in the NH circles where I circulate.



> She knew he was going to be taken away, never to be seen again because she doesn't know that extraction takes a while. She knew she had no chance of survival facing Pein alone when Naruto was pinned down. Also, he's freaking pinned down with Chakra sapping rods, and with her Byakugan she could most likely tell that's what they do so buying time for the guy to free himself wasn't an option, especially when she made it out alone and not without backup. She was suicidal, wanting to let her feelings be known before she died.



Hinata was desperate to do anything she could, including give her life, to somehow keep Pain from taking Naruto. No one else was stepping up and she just couldn't stand by and watch him be taken. That is why she did what she did. She had no intention of revealing her feelings until Naruto pressed her about it. 



> Also, I would like to point out that since everyone is making a big deal about the meaning behind scenes - then what was the meaning of Hinata's little tripping incident. Seems pretty much a waste of panels and pages having the girl abandon her peers to rush towards Naruto as Gaara is taking Naruto and Sakura to Minato only for Hinata to trip and fall flat on her face, angsting that she couldn't do anything if it didn't mean anything, right?


Rather than a waste of panels, by again bringing Hinata to the attention of the readers Kishi is reminding us that she is still there, still in love with Naruto and still intent on being at his side. She just can't hold that position at this time--Team 7 time (Sasuke may be temporarily out of the picture, but after 'Mystery Foot', Oro and Taka get him up and running, he will be making his entrance onto the scene). That is all there is to that little tripping scene.


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## Naiki (Feb 21, 2014)

I think people are mistaking Hinata's desire to protect Naruto as some type of love competition like Naruto is some sort of prize to be won at the end of the war. I seriously doubt that's the case. Hinata's character wasn't developed for that and I seriously don't think that is Hinata's purpose every time she shows up in the manga and I'm not even a Hinata fan and I'm saying this.

Hinata looks up to Naruto as a role-model and idol, and extension of this is her romantic feelings for him. Now, it is because of her romantic feelings for him and her deep respect for him that she is willing to die for him and do whatever means necessary to protect him also as a comrade. 

Hinata isn't pairing fodder that only shows up to let the audience know that she is still in love with Naruto and wants to make adorable Hyuga babies with him after the war, SoulFire. It is, once again, being reiterated that she is willing to risk her life for him and to save him, not to be his wife. She wasn't developed for that. She was developed from a crybaby who always gave up to this courageous woman who protects the people she loves, not to be subjected to some lovesick hormone-driven ... ! 

^ You're being a bad girl!


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## Mael (Feb 21, 2014)

Naiki said:


> There are hints that Sakura's feelings for Naruto teeter on the borderline of romantic and platonic. There is an ambiguity of her feelings that I don't think Sakura herself understands. Could it be that she is slowly developing romantic inclination for Naruto but she doesn't yet understand it? This can be backed up by her startled, yet attentive expression when Yamato makes the statement about the magnitude of her feelings being the thing that matters in the end.
> 
> There wouldn't have been a sudden realisation from Sakura that she's falling in love with Naruto since it's been hinted at by Yamato and Sai, somewhat, early in part II that she might be unconsciously developing said feelings. If anything, it would be upcoming events and further development that could give clarity to the feelings that Sakura hold for Naruto.
> 
> ...



No, it's really more of Sakura being a poorly written deuteragonist and a potential basket case.


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## ch1p (Feb 21, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Haha, good one. Naruto/Sasuke were compared to Dan/Nawaki because they are Sakura's two special people. Suggesting Sasuke parallels to Dan when the latter was all about saving lives is frankly absurd .



Good one? I hope you're not ironic, because this is the truth.

When Tsunade compares Dan / Nawaki with Naruto at the sannin fight, this was done because the kid inherited the same dream as the other two. That is her personal parallel, over subject A: inheriting their dreams.

When Tsunade compares herself with Sakura, with the Dan / Nawaki and Sasuke / Dan superimposition, this was done because each of them wants / wanted to protect those two. That is the parallel between Tsunade and Sakura, over subject B: protecting them.

Who is Sasuke being compared to? The speck on the wall?  There are two people Tsunade wanted to protect, one that she's in love with and the other who she's not. Similarly, there are two people that Sakura wanted to protect, one that she's in love with and another who she's not.

What's so difficult to accept here? Thematicallly, their sob story is even the same. Nawaki is the Senju that wants to be just like his father an be acknowledged as the village's Hokage, a guy who died on his birthday because wanting to prove himself got him into trouble. Naruto is this, complete with the "Senju" and even the birthday thing. On the other hand, Dan was that guy who lost a sibling and because of that he decided he wanted to become Hokage, to learn from the mistakes of the past and avoid unnecessary deaths and build a better village. That's Sasuke's current goal fit to a T as well, what you say about Dan is actually said by Sasuke as well, he wants to prevent another massacre from occurring (the unnecessary death). You might disagree with Sasuke's methods, but as portrayed by canon as the exact having the exact same motivation. Hell, Dan compared Nawaki with Naruto, not himself (with good reason). These is everything we know about Nawaki and Dan btw.

Like I've said before, I've seen your side making parallels for less. Case in point DanTsu / NarSak. I don't even know where this comes from. When Sakura was included in the parallel, she brought Sasuke alone and he must fit. So once more I ask, who's Sasuke being paralleled in that scene? You've avoided answering this.



> For me personality trumps being 'lost'. Hell in that spread Naruto has pretty much the same expression as Yahiko . I believe I said Naruto has similarities with both Yahiko and Nagato btw.
> (...)
> As I said previously YahiKonan would fall down a bit for SS due to Yahiko being pretty much the same character as Naruto.



It's not personality that matters, but story role. After all Konan and Sakura are _nothing_ alike personality-wise and if you say DanTsu is parallel to NaruSaku you have even less reason to advocate this, because Dan is _nothing_ like Naruto either.



> Idc about AsuKure arguments, however Naruto does parallel to both his parents, there's been far too many moments of both to say otherwise. Then we have Minato cannonically saying Sakura reminds him of Kushina, it's _really_ not too hard to see where NS is coming from.



It's not hard, but you have to do some heavy contorcionism for this. You're advocating MinaKushi is gonna get a third Kushina after all. Not that it matters, when thematically, the whole thing is already over as well.

MinaKushi reasons to getting together were Minato watching Kushina from afar and falling in love with her, then proving himself as reliable and she following in love with him (complete with the physical appearance compliment). Naruto never watched Sakura from afar, and after proving himself reliable, she still didn't love him (and the physical appearance compliment, is by your own definition from our previous discussion, irrelevant). What's there to 'compare'.



> As I said before, Kishi draws parallels between everything in his story so it's natural to look at the pairing ones.



It is, but from the moment they can be done for all pairings, they are useless.



> I think we've exhausted the possibilities of this point.



You didn't counter any of them.



> *goal, and I didn't.



Then what, her words in chapter 4 and the fodder ninja in 540 are going to become true? This is what I mean when I say wondering about these 'foreshadowing' bits are useless.



> Fodder nin's words are very natural;
> "wanna go out with me?"
> "no sorry I have someone I like"
> "Oh, good luck then"
> It's not exactly like it had to be shoehorned in there .



But it was shoehorned in there, just like Kushina's advice, because in her situation mothers would advise on romance.

Furthermore, what's the point of that whole scene with the fodder ninja besides telling the reader for the umptieth of time that Sakura loves Sasuke? In the same character Hinata is seen taking a pro-stance and becoming more aggressive in her pursuit of Naruto?



> And yes plot relevance is important, especially when a big character only has a few chapters.



Like I said, if her words were so important, A) Naruto would have repeated them like he repeated the vegetables part, B) the narrative would have made sure to show that Naruto was taking her advice fully. As it stands, it's just something Kushina said, which can be interpreted in many ways.



> True, but lucky for me we are not held to simply part 1.



Yeah, remember when Sakura still didn''t love Naruto, even after he became "Minato".  What's the point of this?



> From a story standpoint you have to admit they are very similar though. I'm also more then ready to move on from this point as my heart was never really in it here.



They're not similar at all. The hair comment made Kushina fall in love with Minato. You have stated, two or three posts ago, that Sakura didn't fall in love with Sasuke (or Naruto whatever) over the compliment.



> Sure looks that way. Good luck putting Sakura's chapter 4 dream on that level though .



This was repeated in chapter 181. 



> I don't agree.



Without giving any reasons to why. 



> You're claiming significance because a word was used twice and I'm the one grasping at straws? Burden of proof is most certainly on you here and that means you need to prove significance.



I'm not claiming significance. I'm saying none of this shit matters, because it gets us nowhere.  Oh it's my parallel which is going to become true. Oh no, it's mine because of some line said like 150 chapters ago and that was never relevant again.



> Because it'd be poor story telling? I mean anything could potentially happen in the story but that doesn't mean everything is worth consideration.



Precisely. Why should I take Kushina's words as foreshadowing of NarSak? Or your odd parallels that don't even fit for that matter?



> Ino damn well tried, this is more a case of which foreshadowing is stronger though (Sakura wins through being the second coming of Tsunade).



Precisely. Why would Ino's words be more important than Sakura's? In the case of Kushina's words about 'finding someone like her' why should those trump Sakura, who by all means is more important than her?

Sakura wanting to be romantically acknowledged by Sasuke was not a chapter 4 reference only, she brought it again during 181 when she confessed and promised happiness if they were together. It was referenced again, when his gratefulness over everything she had done for him one of the reasons that prevented her from killing him.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 21, 2014)

> This was my point all along.



Then there is no problem with her goals. She should be allowed to have them. Why are we discussing this. 



> *Sakura says Naruto is the only one who can bring Sasuke back*
> *Naruto PoaL's, Sakura cheers up*
> *Naruto fails and returns alone*
> *Sakura tells it's alright that he failed and she looks dejected and shit*
> ...



It does fit, otherwise Sakura would have said okay Naruto I believe your words, get me Sasuke back. Instead, she said they'd do it *together*. When she had left everyhting in his hands before.



> Because they are two different things?



But they're not. 



> She thought she could kill him despite (and because of) her love for him. At not point does she think about redemption in that sequence in 484 and it's only once Naruto arrives and makes his statements does she look happy again. I feel like your scenario is a bit convoluted without any direct proof tbh.



No. At the end of 487 she says she has faith in _both_ of them. Where did the _both_ of them come from? Naruto gave her hope, much like in the PoaLT, but so did her love for Sasuke. It's a hospital redux scene. Naruto is a story that repeats.



> Do you not get the context of that scene? Naruto tells his mind!Itachi that he'll take care of Sasuke and all of Team 7 step up to defeat their enemy and prove their worth to be Hokage. There are numerous unresolved issues regarding Sasuke and this scene is nowhere near as straight forward as the one at the end of the Kage Summit.



This is not a self contained story. This is Kishi writing. If he made Sakura meddle when Naruto said he'd take care of Sasuke himself, then you have no right saying that has no significance. Especially when this is a repeat of an old scenario (hospital scene, where she says they'll do it together) or the aftermath of sound country arc (where she says, hey we'll do it together) or the hospital where she fixes his arm because he says (we're getting closer to him, together).



> Probably not, I'm terrible at predicting how things happen.



I'm not saying I hold the truth either. If I did it was in a clear flippant  way. However, the moment has come and went. Sakura is not going to have an ephinany while Madara stomps. I'm sure she has more to worry about. If she had to have this realisation, it would have been while she was on the way.



> More like that's a whole other can of worms that I don't really want to get into right now.



Okay.



Naiki said:


> There are hints that Sakura's feelings for Naruto teeter on the borderline of romantic and platonic. There is an ambiguity of her feelings that I don't think Sakura herself understands. Could it be that she is slowly developing romantic inclination for Naruto but she doesn't yet understand it? This can be backed up by her startled, yet attentive expression when Yamato makes the statement about the magnitude of her feelings being the thing that matters in the end.
> 
> There wouldn't have been a sudden realisation from Sakura that she's falling in love with Naruto since it's been hinted at by Yamato and Sai, somewhat, early in part II that she might be unconsciously developing said feelings. If anything, it would be upcoming events and further development that could give clarity to the feelings that Sakura hold for Naruto.
> 
> ...



There is nothing that you say that counters what I said.

Sakura cares about Naruto yes, but not romantically and all of her scenes with him are platonic (even the great CPR scene is not romantic). You keep insisting that she can care about him differently, but you give no reasons as to why this would be the case. You give no reasons as to why her feelings would switch from one to the other. You just allude to some vague 'realisation' of hidden feelings without giving any sort of reasons as to why any sort of thing like that would happen.

Your only card really is 'sudden realisation', because as you phrase this, you want her to be stupid enough to be clueless about her feelings after all this time and development. Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone from chapter 540. This happened one day ago in manga timeline. She's not aware of these supposed feelings for Naruto. This is not gradual development and a shift from Sakura, this is her suddenly changing her mind over some mysterious event.


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## Naiki (Feb 21, 2014)

ch1p said:


> There is nothing that you say that counters what I said.
> 
> Sakura cares about Naruto yes, but not romantically and all of her scenes with him are platonic (even the great CPR scene is not romantic). You keep insisting that she can care about him differently, but you give no reasons as to why this would be the case. You give no reasons as to why her feelings would switch from one to the other. You just allude to some vague 'realisation' of hidden feelings without giving any sort of reasons as to why any sort of thing like that would happen.
> 
> Your only card really is 'sudden realisation', because as you phrase this, you want her to be stupid enough to be clueless about her feelings after all this time and development. Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone from chapter 540. This happened one day ago in manga timeline. She's not aware of these supposed feelings for Naruto. This is not gradual development and a shift from Sakura, this is her suddenly changing her mind over some mysterious event.



You obviously didn't read the entire post, but that's alright. I specifically said that Sakura's feelings can be looked at from an ambiguous point of view. No where did I say that her feelings switched from platonic to romantic because that's not the case. The fact of the matter is that Sakura's feelings are up in the air and I don't think she understands them herself. If you had actually read my post and got where I was coming from, you wouldn't have come back with basically the same thing which I already covered. 

The thing that would be 'sudden realisation' in this manga is Naruto 'suddenly' falling in love with Hinata. That's sudden realisation when the guy has never turned an alluring eye on her in that manner. 

As for the sudden display of romantic inclination that you claim that Sakura would have, how do you explain this which happened at the beginning of part II then:

look here She was clearly admiring his matured appearance as well as his growth in strength. I don't know about you but this rings as more than platonic to me.

  When Sai points out Sakura's gentle nature towards Naruto, she looks at him with blatant incomprehension. This backs up my point of Sakura not understanding the magnitude of her feelings for Naruto. 

look here It's this panel that prompts the startled, self-awakening expression from Sakura which continues into this:
look here It was then where Yamato continues to draw the conclusion that Sakura must really... where Sakura appears to be even more alert with all ears. This, again, backs up the notion that she doesn't understand her feelings for Naruto and what she really needs is clarity from somewhere e.g. an outside source.

look here Not to mention here where Sakura is being a bit coquettish with her approach to feeding Naruto. 

 Then, there is this hug that can easily be interpreted as more than platonic. Not only can it also be interpreted as romantically inclined, but also as relief-driving and appreciative. 

 And it is in this confession where she lists highly accurate reasons as to why she loves him. This, more than anything, she bring genuine light to the nature of her feelings. In the next panel after this one, shes on to tell him that he makes her feel safe and that he is close to her, which again, is accurate information and brings a new perspective to the nature of her feelings.

 And then, it was here where she vehemently defends herself. If she were lying about how she feels about Naruto, why would she defend herself with such fervor? Maybe because she was really telling the truth about how she feels for him?

And then, of course, there were the numerous instances where Sakura has only expressed concern for Naruto over Sasuke throughout the war. This, in itself, explains who she feels strongly for. Even if Sakura still loves Sasuke, it is clear that her ambiguous feelings for Naruto are stronger. 

We only have her word for what she feels for Naruto and that is she loves him. But, what we do know is that her love for Sasuke is on thin ice right about now.


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## SoulFire (Feb 21, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I think people are mistaking Hinata's desire to protect Naruto as some type of love competition like Naruto is some sort of prize to be won at the end of the war. I seriously doubt that's the case. Hinata's character wasn't developed for that and I seriously don't think that is Hinata's purpose every time she shows up in the manga and I'm not even a Hinata fan and I'm saying this.
> 
> Hinata looks up to Naruto as a role-model and idol, and extension of this is her romantic feelings for him. Now, it is because of her romantic feelings for him and her deep respect for him that she is willing to die for him and do whatever means necessary to protect him also as a comrade.
> 
> ...



Absolutely nowhere in my post did I indicate that Hinata was nothing but pairing fodder wanting to make adorable babies with Naruto. And I certainly do not consider her to be in some sort of 'love competition' with him as the 'prize'.  

What I said was that her appearance in the mentioned chapter was specifically to remind us that she is still there and still intent to be there for him (which means more than being his 'wifu' even though she_ is_ in love with him). It is Kishi saying, "we're switching gears here and heading full steam into Team 7 development, but don't forget Hinata--she'll be waiting in the wings". Where you get whatever you're saying about her being subjected to lovesick hormone-driven...whatever, I don't know. Her love for him is a part of her character make up and will always be a part of her motivation, but I find nothing wrong with that.


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## Naiki (Feb 21, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Absolutely nowhere in my post did I indicate that Hinata was nothing but pairing fodder wanting to make adorable babies with Naruto. And I certainly do not consider her to be in some sort of 'love competition' with him as the 'prize'.
> 
> 
> What I said was that her appearance in the mentioned chapter was specifically to remind us that she is still there and still intent to be there for him (which means more than being his 'wifu' even though she_ is_ in love with him). It is Kishi saying, "we're switching gears here and heading full steam into Team 7 development, but don't forget Hinata--she'll be waiting in the wings". Where you get whatever you're saying about her being subjected to lovesick hormone-driven...whatever, I don't know. Her love for him is a part of her character make up and will always be a part of her motivation, but I find nothing wrong with that.




I'm sorry, but that was the impression I got from it. 



			
				SoulFire! said:
			
		

> Rather than a waste of panels, by again bringing Hinata to the attention  of the readers Kishi is reminding us that *she is still there, still in  love with Naruto and still intent on being at his side.* She just can't  hold that position at this time--Team 7 time (Sasuke may be temporarily  out of the picture, but after 'Mystery Foot', Oro and Taka get him up  and running, he will be making his entrance onto the scene). That is all  there is to that little tripping scene.




The bolded part is what made me assume that you were indicating that she is there to remind everyone that she is pursuing Naruto romantically, when that's clearly not the case. You gave no indication that her goal was to protect Naruto as you say, but rather that she's still in love with him. Her love for Naruto is just an extension of her admiration and idolization of him.  Her admiration/love, idolization of him, as well as his place as a role-model in her life is what drives her to protect him. 

As for the Team 7 time. It's clearly NarSak time since Sasuke is all alone while Sakura is the one chosen to be by Naruto's side during his brush with death. 

Not trying to nitpick, but you know you're one of my most treasured friends, SoulFire.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 21, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Good one? I hope you're not ironic, because this is the truth.



I was being sardonic.



> Who is Sasuke being compared to? The speck on the wall?  There are two people Tsunade wanted to protect, one that she's in love with and the other who she's not. Similarly, there are two people that Sakura wanted to protect, one that she's in love with and another who she's not.



They are being compared as a group, Sakura wants to protect both of them just Tsunade did. 



> What's so difficult to accept here? Thematicallly, their sob story is even the same. Nawaki is the Senju that wants to be just like his father an be acknowledged as the village's Hokage, a guy who died on his birthday because wanting to prove himself got him into trouble. Naruto is this, complete with the "Senju" and even the birthday thing. On the other hand, Dan was that guy who lost a sibling and because of that he decided he wanted to become Hokage, to learn from the mistakes of the past and avoid unnecessary deaths and build a better village. That's Sasuke's current goal fit to a T as well, what you say about Dan is actually said by Sasuke as well, he wants to prevent another massacre from occurring (the unnecessary death). You might disagree with Sasuke's methods, but as portrayed by canon as the exact having the exact same motivation. Hell, Dan compared Nawaki with Naruto, not himself (with good reason). These is everything we know about Nawaki and Dan btw.



Naruto wasn't connected to the Senju for hundreds of chapters yet, forgive me if I don't attribute that kind of foresight to Kishi. Not only that but again Naruto had no idea who his father was, he wanted to be like the previous Hokages. There are also _*major*_ differences between Dan and Sasuke in that Dan was in no way a villain and he served to buoy Tsunade's after Nawaki died. Not only that but Dan was pretty clearly on the Senju/peace side which Sasuke is directly opposed to _still_. You mention Dan compares Naruto to Nawaki in canon, there's a damn good reason no one compares Sasuke to Dan in canon; because Sasuke is far more like Danzo.



> Like I've said before, I've seen your side making parallels for less. Case in point DanTsu / NarSak. I don't even know where this comes from. When Sakura was included in the parallel, she brought Sasuke alone and he must fit. So once more I ask, who's Sasuke being paralleled in that scene? You've avoided answering this.



I wasn't aware that I have to defend every argument NS has ever made.



> It's not personality that matters, but story role. After all Konan and Sakura are _nothing_ alike personality-wise and if you say DanTsu is parallel to NaruSaku you have even less reason to advocate this, because Dan is _nothing_ like Naruto either.



I didn't say DanTsu are like NS, I brought up JiraTsu a couple of times though (and I think we finished that discussion).



> It's not hard, but you have to do some heavy contorcionism for this. You're advocating MinaKushi is gonna get a third Kushina after all. Not that it matters, when thematically, the whole thing is already over as well.



It's hardly contortionism when the Sakura/Kushina parallel is brought up in canon . Anyone should also be able to see that Naruto has elements of both his parents.



> MinaKushi reasons to getting together were Minato watching Kushina from afar and falling in love with her, then proving himself as reliable and she following in love with him (complete with the physical appearance compliment). Naruto never watched Sakura from afar, and after proving himself reliable, she still didn't love him (and the physical appearance compliment, is by your own definition from our previous discussion, irrelevant). What's there to 'compare'.



A parallel doesn't mean you have the exact same characters and situations. It's just when enough similarities between two pairings pop up so that it's either a coincidence (in which case Kishi coincidentally makes NS like a canon pairing ) or intended to reflect some of the qualities.

Not only that but as I said previously, old pairings in this story give us a highlight reel, whereas our current generation has grown up throughout the story and of course the drama is going to be different.



> It is, but from the moment they can be done for all pairings, they are useless.



Please, you're trying to muddy the issue because you have a far weaker hand in this area.



> You didn't counter any of them.



We're pretty much just repeating our points at this stage which is why I don't want to continue. Other people with better skills in literary analysis than I have could likely explain clearly why Kushina's words are pretty important.



> Then what, her words in chapter 4 and the fodder ninja in 540 are going to become true? This is what I mean when I say wondering about these 'foreshadowing' bits are useless.



I don't view pairing issues in the same light as avenging a family or becoming Hokage/making everyone acknowledge you. It's entirely common in a story to have characters like Sakura actually change her feelings despite how intense they are/were. So while I thought it was a forgone conclusion in chapter 4 that Naruto/Sasuke would do both of their things, I didn't feel the same way about Sakura and waited until forming my impression.



> But it was shoehorned in there, just like Kushina's advice, because in her situation mothers would advise on romance.



Would they? Not sure I agree with that.



> Furthermore, what's the point of that whole scene with the fodder ninja besides telling the reader for the umptieth of time that Sakura loves Sasuke? In the same character Hinata is seen taking a pro-stance and becoming more aggressive in her pursuit of Naruto?



Showing Sakura thinking about Sasuke wreathed in flames being evil and shit is pretty important if NS is going to be endgame. It _was_ very rare for her to think about Sasuke negatively.



> Yeah, remember when Sakura still didn''t love Naruto, even after he became "Minato".  What's the point of this?



And Naruto still doesn't love Hinata after she sacrificed herself for him, Sasuke doesn't love Sakura despite no murder attempts for ~150 chapters. Something has to give (or has given) somewhere unless you think there'll be an open ending.



> They're not similar at all. The hair comment made Kushina fall in love with Minato. You have stated, two or three posts ago, that Sakura didn't fall in love with Sasuke (or Naruto whatever) over the compliment.



Come off it, acknowledge the similarity and move on, it doesn't mean NS will magically become canon if you back down every now and again.



> Without giving any reasons to why.



Again I have addressed this elsewhere.



> I'm not claiming significance. I'm saying none of this shit matters, because it gets us nowhere.  Oh it's my parallel which is going to become true. Oh no, it's mine because of some line said like 150 chapters ago and that was never relevant again.



And we're back to the point about how Kishi loves his parallels again, which is my justification for why similarities between NS and other pairings matter.



> Precisely. Why should I take Kushina's words as foreshadowing of NarSak? Or your odd parallels that don't even fit for that matter?



I used Kushina's words as evidence against an open ending, not pro NS here. Personally I think they're both but I can't really be bothered defending something I don't have to.



> Precisely. Why would Ino's words be more important than Sakura's? In the case of Kushina's words about 'finding someone like her' why should those trump Sakura, who by all means is more important than her?



Having the main character love Sakura for ~650 chapters is a big factor in this, it's a shounen after all. Why should Sakura's love for Sasuke trump Naruto's love for Sakura story-wise simply because Sakura happened to be a bit more deluded in chapter 4?



> Sakura wanting to be romantically acknowledged by Sasuke was not a chapter 4 reference only, she brought it again during 181 when she confessed and promised happiness if they were together. It was referenced again, when his gratefulness over everything she had done for him one of the reasons that prevented her from killing him.



And Naruto's love for Sakura has been brought up a lot of times too.



> It does fit, otherwise Sakura would have said okay Naruto I believe your words, get me Sasuke back. Instead, she said they'd do it *together*. When she had left everyhting in his hands before.



You believe that 13 year old Sakura thought she could get Sasuke back without Naruto's help when she was staring out that window? O.o



> But they're not.



You can love who someone used to be while thinking they won't return to that previous state. 



> No. At the end of 487 she says she has faith in _both_ of them. Where did the _both_ of them come from? Naruto gave her hope, much like in the PoaLT, but so did her love for Sasuke. It's a hospital redux scene. Naruto is a story that repeats.



Naruto is a story that repeats? And you say parallels are useless .

I honestly do not know why she said both there as it's clear in the scene that Sasuke is a crazy friend and Naruto thinks he can redeem him still. Her love for Sasuke didn't factor in to thinking he could be redeemed, they are two seperate issues. Also in the hospital scene Sakura had sweet fuck all faith in Sasuke, just saying .



> This is not a self contained story. This is Kishi writing. If he made Sakura meddle when Naruto said he'd take care of Sasuke himself, then you have no right saying that has no significance. Especially when this is a repeat of an old scenario (hospital scene, where she says they'll do it together) or the aftermath of sound country arc (where she says, hey we'll do it together) or the hospital where she fixes his arm because he says (we're getting closer to him, together).



And Naruto's like "I'm the only one who can stop Sasuke", "I finally understand Sasuke", "fight me first". Sasuke's like "Fuck team 7, but especially Naruto because he makes me feel things".

I would like Sakura to be around for the fight but I'm not sure what her role in it will be.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 21, 2014)

Is this for real? Tsunade herself even likens Naruto to Dan AND Nawaki. Naruto "parallels" a lot of characters if it wasn't obvious.

I don't recall anyone trying to compare Tsunade and Dan except for those arguing in favor of SasuSaku though. Is a grab for a parallel really that desperate?


----------



## ch1p (Feb 22, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Is this for real? Tsunade herself even likens Naruto to Dan AND Nawaki. Naruto "parallels" a lot of characters if it wasn't obvious.
> 
> I don't recall anyone trying to compare Tsunade and Dan except for those arguing in favor of SasuSaku though. Is a grab for a parallel really that desperate?



You have not understood the point. What I'm defending is that using parallels are stupid and useless. They are either insignificant or contradicting.

Like I said, Tsunade's comparison between Naruto and Dan / Nawaki was done on her own, due to the dream of Hokage that she later inherited and wishes Naruto to. When it was time to include Sakura, she brought Sasuke with it, and furthermore the parallel is about people that they want to protect. Sasuke must fit that comparison, Tsunade thought of her two loved ones in that scene and Sakura was superimposed on her two loved ones as well. _This is a direct reference_. So unless you can prove me Sasuke was compared to Nawaki, he was by all means compared to Dan. This only makes sense as those two were whom were loved romantically and Nawaki / Naruto was loved platonically.

This is exaclty why I think parallels are stupid. Some push their side, some push the other side.



Naiki said:


> I specifically said that Sakura's feelings can be looked at from an ambiguous point of view.



But they cannot. 540 completely voids this.



Mr Horrible said:


> They are being compared as a group, Sakura wants to protect both of them just Tsunade did.



Yes, one Sakura loves romantically and the other she does not. Like Tsunade. :33



> Naruto wasn't connected to the Senju for hundreds of chapters yet, forgive me if I don't attribute that kind of foresight to Kishi.



First you had no problems doing the same, when you connected Kushina's words to Sakura hundred of chapters before that was done.

Second, the parallel between Naruto and Tsunade's family had already been made. The office scene was done _after_ Kakashi said Naruto / Sasuke mirrored Hashirama / Madara respectivelly.



> Not only that but again Naruto had no idea who his father was, he wanted to be like the previous Hokages.



It's like I'm talking to two different people. You are defending Kushina's words have authorial intent. Why can't it be said as well that this is the same case for Minato and Naruto?

Furthermore, this is only fuel for my own point, now that I think of it. Minato is Naruto's father was a prevalent theory back in the day precisely because of these connections. What also was a theory, was the Akatsuki Leader would be related to Naruto somehow. One got to be correct, one did not. This is because the connections on one case were correct and the 'connections on the other case were incorrect. Much like this whole parallel business.



> There are also _*major*_ differences between Dan and Sasuke in that Dan was in no way a villain and he served to buoy Tsunade's after Nawaki died. Not only that but Dan was pretty clearly on the Senju/peace side which Sasuke is directly opposed to _still_. You mention Dan compares Naruto to Nawaki in canon, there's a damn good reason no one compares Sasuke to Dan in canon; because Sasuke is far more like Danzo.



Them not being alike doesn't stop you from saying Naruto and Dan were paralleld, when they are nothing alike besides the Hokage thing. It doesn't stop you from attempting to make a smartass comment relating YahiKonan with NaruSaku, just because Naruto is like Yahiko and yet Konan is nothing like Sakura (nothing whatsoever besides being females) and having stuff on their hair. It doesn't stop you from attempting to push MinaKushi as NaruSaku parallel when both Naruto and Sakura have been compared to Kushina.



> I wasn't aware that I have to defend every argument NS has ever made.



You don't need to. However, you are pretending DanTsu // SasuSaku never existed when by your own definitions, it does exist. You have said MinaKushi // NaruSaku has been paralleled and tbh what was done carries less weight than DT / SS.

Only Sakura and Kushina were compared and the reason for it is because they're violent. In canon, the only people Kushina was violent was towards the people in the academy who teased her for her hair (Minato is not included in this) and Sakura has been violent towards more people than just Naruto (Konohamaru and Sai). On the other hand, Sasuke and Dan were brought as part of the people Sakura / Tsunade wanted to protect, and at the time it was canon that Sakura was in love with Sasuke and Tsunade was in love with Dan.



> I didn't say DanTsu are like NS, I brought up JiraTsu a couple of times though (and I think we finished that discussion).



That's true, it was someone else. However, you attempted to push YahiKonan as NaruSaku, just because Yahiko had a similar personality to Naruto. However, Konan doesn't have the same personality as Sakura.



> It's hardly contortionism when the Sakura/Kushina parallel is brought up in canon . Anyone should also be able to see that Naruto has elements of both his parents.



So was Sasuke and Dan in the office scene and Sasuke and Yahiko in that team spread (this one directly commented by Kishi that it was meant to be a comparison), whether you like it or not.

Take notice. I think this is all meaningless. I think Sakura / Kushina, Sasuke / Dan, Sasuke / Yahiko is meaningless. You're the one making a special case for Sakura / Kushina, and pretending SD and SY does not exist. I'm not using any of this as pairing backup, I'm saying this is all meaningless. On the other hand, you are using it as pairing backup.



> _*A parallel doesn't mean you have the exact same characters and situations.*_ It's just when enough similarities between two pairings pop up so that it's either a coincidence (in which case Kishi coincidentally makes NS like a canon pairing ) or intended to reflect some of the qualities.



Then you have no right in saying: 'there are also _*major*_ differences between Dan and Sasuke'. The fact is, Sasuke's whole motivation right now is similar to Dan, and he was brought in as a visual parallel once as well.

Like I've said, you're just cherry picking what's convenient to your pairing and  discarding everything else. I don't agree with that. Either take it all, or discard all. Take it all is useless, so IMO, discard it all is the right thing to do.



> Not only that but as I said previously, old pairings in this story give us a highlight reel, whereas our current generation has grown up throughout the story and of course the drama is going to be different.



I don't disagree. I'm just pointing out this crap can be done for all pairings and as such, defending this in a serious debate gets us nowhere.



> Please, you're trying to muddy the issue because you have a far weaker hand in this area.



 2/3 SS "parallels" are reciprocrated and the last one has about 3-4 points that make it debatable. I could use this as "proof" if I so wanted. I just think it's useless.



> We're pretty much just repeating our points at this stage which is why I don't want to continue. Other people with better skills in literary analysis than I have could likely explain clearly why Kushina's words are pretty important.



No, they can't. They can try though and I'd prefer this. This way, there wouldn't be burthurt feelings about nobody countering me and that I basked arrogantly in glory and cheerleading. I don't want to get into another tumblr war over what I say in this thread.


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## SoulFire (Feb 22, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I'm sorry, but that was the impression I got from it.



Sorry if my meaning was unclear. :sweat My intent was to negate the idea that Kishi is leaving Hinata literally and figuratively face down in the dust, meaning that her significance within the story is over. I believe that she still has parts to play, but this is not the time. Kishi placed those panels to tell us that she is still around, her goals  still in play and her personal part of the story not yet finished.



> The bolded part is what made me assume that you were indicating that she is there to remind everyone that she is pursuing Naruto romantically, when that's clearly not the case. You gave no indication that her goal was to protect Naruto as you say, but rather that she's still in love with him. Her love for Naruto is just an extension of her admiration and idolization of him.  Her admiration/love, idolization of him, as well as his place as a role-model in her life is what drives her to protect him.


Naruto does serve as Hinata's role model (his courage and drive serving to fuel her own), but her feelings for him have long ago grown past idolization. She loves him and her desire is to join him in his journey through life, fighting for him and with him. Who doesn't want to protect the one they love? 


> As for the Team 7 time. It's clearly NarSak time since Sasuke is all alone while Sakura is the one chosen to be by Naruto's side during his brush with death.


Kishi is just getting started with the _true_ reunion of his Team 7 players. There is still so much more yet to come--and I feel certain it _will_ involve all members (maybe even Sai--where the heck is he, anyway?). NH development has always been separate from Team 7 development. For the time being, Hinata will likely be on the sidelines. But she remains a player.



> Not trying to nitpick, but you know you're one of my most treasured friends, SoulFire.


No prob!


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## ch1p (Feb 22, 2014)

> I don't view pairing issues in the same light as avenging a family or becoming Hokage/making everyone acknowledge you. It's entirely common in a story to have characters like Sakura actually change her feelings despite how intense they are/were. So while I thought it was a forgone conclusion in chapter 4 that Naruto/Sasuke would do both of their things, I didn't feel the same way about Sakura and waited until forming my impression.



That's biased. I thought all three would get what they want and I didn't become an SS fan until FoD.



> Would they? Not sure I agree with that.



Dude, it's a clich?. Mothers like to be romantic councelors. How many teenage dramas exist where the mother attempts to give advice?



> Showing Sakura thinking about Sasuke wreathed in flames being evil and shit is pretty important if NS is going to be endgame. It _was_ very rare for her to think about Sasuke negatively.



Sakura tried to kill Sasuke because she thought there was no salvation for him, but that's not the case in 540 (she is hopeful of a bright future for Sasuke again). She thinking of him eating babies would still have been better than what she thought of him in Iron arc. He's "good" now though, which just defeats this argument even further.



> And Naruto still doesn't love Hinata after she sacrificed herself for him, Sasuke doesn't love Sakura despite no murder attempts for ~150 chapters. Something has to give (or has given) somewhere unless you think there'll be an open ending.



That's nice, but still utterly useless. NaruHina still hasn't had its "fake confession" moment. When they have something like that, with Naruto admitting Hinata is awesome but she still doesn't love him, then you can say NaruHina is sunk. SS is a different matter. It always hanged in the balance of what Sasuke's would be when he's redeemed.



> Come off it, acknowledge the similarity and move on, it doesn't mean NS will magically become canon if you back down every now and again.



You know who defended Sakura could be compared to Kushina before it happened? I did. You know who is defending Sakura can be compared to Rin (wasn't she already) before it happens? I am. I still don't think none of it matters.

I will not admit it's similar because it's not, outside of the very shallow.



> Again I have addressed this elsewhere.



If you say so.



> And we're back to the point about how Kishi loves his parallels again, which is my justification for why similarities between NS and other pairings matter.



But it's not. Kishi has compared several pairings to several others, some contradicting each other.



> I used Kushina's words as evidence against an open ending, not pro NS here. Personally I think they're both but I can't really be bothered defending something I don't have to.



You think it's both, come on now.



> Having the main character love Sakura for ~650 chapters is a big factor in this, it's a shounen after all. Why should Sakura's love for Sasuke trump Naruto's love for Sakura story-wise simply because Sakura happened to be a bit more deluded in chapter 4?
> 
> And Naruto's love for Sakura has been brought up a lot of times too.



I see main character > secondary character is here. I was wondering when it would make an appearance.

Why would Naruto's love be dropped? Because narratively, it's only about two things: comic relief and acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are just that strong.



> You believe that 13 year old Sakura thought she could get Sasuke back without Naruto's help when she was staring out that window? O.o



No. I don't see how that changes anything though. I was always skeptical that Naruto would bring Sasuke back. I was right btw. Sasuke went "back" himself. He wants to be Hokage. He can't be Hokage if he doesn't come back.



> You can love who someone used to be while thinking they won't return to that previous state.



Yes. Case in point, Tsunade. Probably Konan



> Naruto is a story that repeats? And you say parallels are useless .



I say they are useless when they contradict each other.



> I honestly do not know why she said both there as it's clear in the scene that Sasuke is a crazy friend and Naruto thinks he can redeem him still. Her love for Sasuke didn't factor in to thinking he could be redeemed, they are two seperate issues. Also in the hospital scene Sakura had sweet fuck all faith in Sasuke, just saying .



It doesn't matter if she has no faith. You people keep saying this as if it matters or changes anything. According to you she was 13 and had no faith, but she's 16 now and she still loves him. Lol faith.



> And Naruto's like "I'm the only one who can stop Sasuke", "I finally understand Sasuke", "fight me first". Sasuke's like "Fuck team 7, but especially Naruto because he makes me feel things".



Naruto also said he'd drag back Sasuke into the Leaf, but lolz that didn't happen either. You're being bias because you prefer Naruto to Sakura, that's all.



> I would like Sakura to be around for the fight but I'm not sure what her role in it will be.



I doubt she can fight Madara. Then again, I doubt Naruto can fight Madara as he is ATM. It seems like it's Obito who will be the game changer at least. I'd say more, but this isn't the predictions thread.


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Sorry if my meaning was unclear. :sweat My intent was to negate the idea that Kishi is leaving Hinata literally and figuratively face down in the dust, meaning that her significance within the story is over. I believe that she still has parts to play, but this is not the time. Kishi placed those panels to tell us that she is still around, her goals  still in play and her personal part of the story not yet finished.




Hinata's part to play is that she has Naruto's back and is there to protect Naruto to the end. The motive behind it is because of her love/idolization of him. Kishimoto placed Hinata in that panel to let us know that despite her intentions to protect him through this war, she doesn't have the ability to at that moment. The addition of her in the pages doesn't tell us that she is still there and she still desires to be by his side after the war. 

Her addition into those panels were a sign that despite her goals, she didn't have the ability to do just that in that present time which explains her praying to Neji to protect Naruto which was something she was unable to do right then. It wasn't to show that she was still in the game of protecting Naruto, because that was something that we already knew. 

{x}

If it were a matter of showing that Hinata was still in the game of protecting Naruto, she would've been able to reach that cloud of sand and hop right onto it. If anything, it actually does suggest that her part to play is over because she won't be apart of something crucial like witnessing the recovery of Naruto during a time where he might really need her since that's her desire to protect him. The one that was chosen for such a thing was Sakura and she barely has any chakra left. 

If anything, now is the time for Sakura to show the lengths that she would go to protect the one she cares deeply for as well, or atleast try to. You saw what lengths she went to in order to keep him breathing and alive, didn't you? She is literally holding the guy's heart in her hand. 




> Naruto does serve as Hinata's role model (his courage and drive serving to fuel her own), but her feelings for him have long ago grown past idolization. She loves him and her desire is to join him in his journey through life, fighting for him and with him. Who doesn't want to protect the one they love?




This is in my opinion, but I really think that her love for him is just an extenstion of her idolization of him. I don't think her romantic love for him is what creates her entire being. Her adoration and admiration developed into romantic love, but what hasn't changed is her idolization of him as a role model which explains why she strives to stand by his side as equal comrades. 




> Kishi is just getting started with the _true_ reunion of his Team 7 players. There is still so much more yet to come--and I feel certain it _will_ involve all members (maybe even Sai--where the heck is he, anyway?). *NH development has always been separate from Team 7 development.* For the time being, Hinata will likely be on the sidelines. But she remains a player.




NS development has been separate from Team 7 development too. What would you characterize the entirety of part II as? Naruto and Sakura's bond has been getting stronger since before Sasuke left and even more so after he left into part II.  Wouldn't you call that NS development?


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> But they cannot. 540 completely voids this.




Why would Naruto be included in that panel if her feelings are open-ended and completely unclear. I've explained why it's possible that Sakura doesn't understand her feelings for Naruto, so why would she think of Naruto when the subject of romance comes up when she herself can't even understand the nature of her own feelings? The only thing 540 proved was that Sakura still contains lingering feelings for Sasuke, but it doesn't verify what she feels for Naruto which can be viewed as unclear and indistinguishable.


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## SoulFire (Feb 22, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Hinata's part to play is that she has Naruto's back and is there to protect Naruto to the end. The motive behind it is because of her love/idolization of him. Kishimoto placed Hinata in that panel to let us know that despite her intentions to protect him through this war, she doesn't have the ability to at that moment. The addition of her in the pages doesn't tell us that she is still there and she still desires to be by his side after the war.


I see it as Kishi giving her some (rather large) panels to let us know that she is still around and still has more of her story to go, _not_ that he has left her in the dust in regard to her part in the greater scheme of things, storywise.



> Her addition into those panels were a sign that despite her goals, she didn't have the ability to do just that in that present time which explains her praying to Neji to protect Naruto which was something she was unable to do at that time.



At this point, Naruto is beyond protecting. He is in need of medical assistance. While she may have tried to jolt Naruto's heart back to beating with her Hyuuga skills, I think it would have been for nothing, as Naruto's condition is about a lot more than just his heart stopping. As I said, Hinata is not meant to have a part in this portion of the story. Kishi purposely set up for Sakura to be there with her medic skills and determination to keep Naruto alive. It is the precursor of the real Team 7 reunion/battle which is to come. Kishi will gradually pull all of the Team 7 players together in the face off against whomever or whatever will be the FV. Hinata has no place there.



> This is in my opinion, but I really think that her love for him is just an extenstion of her idolization of him. I don't think her romantic love for him is what creates her entire being. Her adoration and admiration developed into romantic love, but what hasn't changed is her idolization of him as a role model which explains why she strives to stand by his side as equal comrades.



We see this differently as I think Hinata views Naruto as a role model, but I really don't find that she idolizes him--she knows that he has clay feet and that is actually something she loves about him. I agree that her romantic love for him is not her entire being, but it is a part of her make up and her motivations. 



> NS development has been separate from Team 7 development too. What would you characterize the entirety of part II as? Naruto and Sakura's bond has been getting stronger since before Sasuke left and even more so after he left into part II.  Wouldn't you call that NS development?



The relationship between Naruto and Sakura had its start and a good deal of development while they were within Team 7. Sakura went from 'hating' Naruto to respecting and liking him. I also find that much of their bonding throughout the story has been wrapped around their shared feelings and concerns for Sasuke (whether or not he was present). Hinata's development with Naruto has always been kept outside of his relationships within his team. I don't see that changing.


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I see it as Kishi giving her some (rather large) panels to let us know that she is still around and still has more of her story to go, _not_ that he has left her in the dust in regard to her part in the greater scheme of things, storywise.




The size of the panel is irrelevant. If that's the case, then the CPR that Sakura was giving Naruto is letting us know that there is more lip-locking to come.  Anyways, my point is that it looks to me like at this point, there is nothing that Hinata could have done back then to protect Naruto. It was because of Sakura that Naruto is lasting this long with her pumping his heart with her chakra. When Hinata showed up, Naruto's heartbeat was weak and I'm certain that if it hadn't been for Sakura, Naruto would've already been dead. 

Because, remember, Naruto's heart stopped when they were on their way but it was thanks to Sakura that it started beating again. 

{x} Weakening heartbeat. 
{x} Heart isn't beating.
{x} Here it looks like it started beating again and it's due to that procedure.




> At this point, Naruto is beyond protecting. He is in need of medical assistance. While she may have tried to jolt Naruto's heart back to beating with her Hyuuga skills, I think it would have been for nothing, as Naruto's condition is about a lot more than just his heart stopping. As I said, Hinata is not meant to have a part in this portion of the story. Kishi purposely set up for Sakura to be there with her medic skills and determination to keep Naruto alive. It is the precursor of the real Team 7 reunion/battle which is to come. Kishi will gradually pull all of the Team 7 players together in the face off against whomever or whatever will be the FV. Hinata has no place there.




Well, as I stated before, Hinata was incapable of protecting Naruto in that moment but Sakura was the one that was able to get Naruto's heart pumping again after it had stopped. She is the one that's protecting him and making sure that he doesn't die at this point. In a way, using her medical skills, this is Sakura's own way of protecting Naruto just like Hinata has hers.




> We see this differently as I think Hinata views Naruto as a role model, but I really don't find that she idolizes him--she knows that he has clay feet and that is actually something she loves about him. I agree that her romantic love for him is not her entire being, but it is a part of her make up and her motivations.




I think that Hinata views Naruto as a role model, yes, more than anything but I interpret her motivation as being inspired by the encouragement and inspiration she gets from him. It was because of Naruto cheering her on that she was able to stand up to Neji in the chunin exams and the same can be said for why she protects him and strives to do her best. I don't think it's just a matter of her loving him, although I think that's a part of it, but mainly of her idolization of him and because he is a source of her strength and inspiration. 




> The relationship between Naruto and Sakura had its start and a good deal of development while they were within Team 7. Sakura went from 'hating' Naruto to respecting and liking him. I also find that much of their bonding throughout the story has been wrapped around their shared feelings and concerns for Sasuke (whether or not he was present). Hinata's development with Naruto has always been kept outside of his relationships within his team. I don't see that changing.




Naruto and Sakura had development outside of the Team 7 dynamic. It is because of the support and the strength that they see in each other that they have grown to care more about each other. Sakura cherishes and cares about the dreams and desires of Naruto. She doesn't want to see his dream crushed, and that in itself shows the type of relationship that just the two of them have. Even before Sasuke left, Naruto and Sakura both learned to trust and rely on each other. 

Sakura has grown to believe deeply in Naruto's abilities as a shinobi. And in the absence of a comrade, they both grew to have a strong sense of companionship with each other. NS developed based on its own merits, not because of Sasuke. They're there for each other. They both feel happy when the other is happy, they both are sad when the other is in pain. It's obvious they have a bond that doesn't include Sasuke or falls into the Team 7 dynamic.


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## Kage (Feb 22, 2014)

Quite frankly Sasuke and Sakura's relationship is the only one that can't really function and doesn't really exist on it's own outside of team seven.


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

Kage said:


> Quite frankly Sasuke and Sakura's relationship is the only one that can't really function and doesn't really exist on it's own outside of team seven.




Precisely. NH has potential for romantic development down the road despite the fact that there isn't any from Naruto's standpoint. Perhaps when Naruto begins to really get to know Hinata as a person because, right now, it's obvious that he respects her and appreciates her antics of protecting him and her willingness to die for him. However, he has yet to see her in a different light other than platonic. Not only that, but Naruto has never had the chance to get close to Hinata like he has with Sakura for him to really fall in love with her. 

It's also obvious that Naruto still loves Sakura, and in my own interpretation, Sakura can't distinguish or doesn't understand the nature of her feelings for Naruto. Right now, I can only say that NS appears to be ahead of NH by a small bit since Sakura's feelings are indecipherable while Naruto's have shown him to be nothing but platonic.


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## SoulFire (Feb 22, 2014)

Naiki said:


> The size of the panel is irrelevant. If that's the case, then the CPR that Sakura was giving Naruto is letting us know that there is more lip-locking to come.



Oookaay...



> Anyways, my point is that it looks to me like at this point, there is nothing that Hinata could have done back then to protect Naruto. It was because of Sakura that Naruto is lasting this long with her pumping his heart with her chakra. When Hinata showed up, Naruto's heartbeat was weak and I'm certain that if it hadn't been for Sakura, Naruto would've already been dead.
> 
> Well, as I stated before, Hinata was incapable of protecting Naruto in that moment but Sakura was the one that was able to get Naruto's heart pumping again after it had stopped. She is the one that's protecting him and making sure that he doesn't die at this point. In a way, using her medical skills, this is Sakura's own way of protecting Naruto just like Hinata has hers.


 
I'm not too sure what you're debating here, as this is pretty much what I just said! 



> I think that Hinata views Naruto as a role model, yes, more than anything but I interpret her motivation as being inspired by the encouragement and inspiration she gets from him. It was because of Naruto cheering her on that she was able to stand up to Neji in the chunin exams and the same can be said for why she protects him and strives to do her best. I don't think it's just a matter of her loving him, although I think that's a part of it, but mainly of her idolization of him and because he is a source of her strength and inspiration.



Well, there's our difference! I think Hinata is inspired and motivated by Naruto, but I don't think she idolizes him. 



> Naruto and Sakura had development outside of the Team 7 dynamic. It is because of the support and the strength that they see in each other that they have grown to care more about each other. Sakura cherishes and cares about the dreams and desires of Naruto. She doesn't want to see his dream crushed, and that in itself shows the type of relationship that just the two of them have. Even before Sasuke left, Naruto and Sakura both learned to trust and rely on each other.
> 
> Sakura has grown to believe deeply in Naruto's abilities as a shinobi. And in the absence of a comrade, they both grew to have a strong sense of companionship with each other. NS developed based on its own merits, not because of Sasuke. They're there for each other. They both feel happy when the other is happy, they both are sad when the other is in pain. It's obvious they have a bond that doesn't include Sasuke or falls into the Team 7 dynamic.



Note that I said that the relationship between Naruto and Sakura had its start and a good deal of development while they were within Team 7 (which is true, as they were brought together and the majority of their interactions have taken place within their team). Quite a ot of their bonding has also had something to do with their missing team mate. That's just how it is. What I am saying is that Naruto's development with Hinata has always been kept separate from Team 7 interaction. Really has nothing to do with his development with Sakura, which had much more opportunity due to her position as his team mate.

I said nothing about Sakura's development with Sasuke. 

I do not find it all that obvious that Naruto continues to hold a flaming torch for Sakura. Nor do I think she is confused about her feelings toward him. Either way, her relationship with Sasuke must be resolved once and for all before any chance of NS becoming canon.

As for Naruto's feelings and what is needed for him to fall for Hinata, I'll leave here what I have said elsewhere: Romance can happen quite quickly in fiction--just look at how fast Kushina fell for Minato.

I think that Naruto has been considering the possibilities for some time now--ever since the Pain incident when Hinata dropped out of the sky and onto his radar. His interest was peaked and certainly appears to have grown if their interactions throughout the war arc are any indication.


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## shurei (Feb 22, 2014)

Kage said:


> Quite frankly Sasuke and Sakura's relationship is the only one that can't really function and doesn't really exist on it's own outside of team seven.



this is true


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## ch1p (Feb 22, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Why would Naruto be included in that panel if her feelings are open-ended and completely unclear.



If Sakura is not aware of those feelings, then that realisation is gonna be sudden. It wasn't a gradual growth of feelings, fruit of the constant development NS supposedly had. They are going to appear from one moment to the other.

Nothing stops Naruto from doing the exact same about having moved on from Sakura and etc..


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I'm not too sure what you're debating here, as this is pretty much what I just said!



I'm glad that we agree on something. 




> Well, there's our difference! I think Hinata is inspired and motivated by Naruto, but I don't think she idolizes him.



Well, I'm fine with that. That's your opinion, and I have mine. 




> Note that I said that the relationship between Naruto and Sakura had its start and a good deal of development while they were within Team 7 (which is true, as they were brought together and the majority of their interactions have taken place within their team). Quite a ot of their bonding has also had something to do with their missing team mate. That's just how it is. What I am saying is that Naruto's development with Hinata has always been kept separate from Team 7 interaction. Really has nothing to do with his development with Sakura, which had much more opportunity due to her position as his team mate.



Not all of their development has something to do with their missing teammate. Some of it is centered around their trust  that they have in each other, the strength they find in each other as well as their companionship and selflessness in regards to each others feelings. 

But, really, hasn't mostly all of the rookie nine had development with Naruto separate from Team 7 interaction. Look at Neji's case, Iruka, Gaara, and all of the people that are close to Naruto now. This development that you say that Naruto has had with Hinata that is separate from Team 7 interaction has been done with others as well. 

There is nothing special about the development Naruto has had with Hinata. It is just like the development he had with Gaara, Neji, Iruka, and all of the others who's lives have been impacted greatly by Naruto's influence. Naruto has grown to respect each and everyone of them just like he respects Hinata now. 



> I said nothing about Sakura's development with Sasuke.



And I never brought up that you said anything. Also, I never said anything about Sakura's development with him either. The only thing I said was that Naruto and Sakura's relationship has been developing before and after Sasuke left and not because of him. So . . . 




> I do not find it all that obvious that Naruto continues to hold a flaming torch for Sakura. Nor do I think she is confused about her feelings toward him. Either way, her relationship with Sasuke must be resolved once and for all before any chance of NS becoming canon.



Well, the girlfriend comment was obvious of that flaming torch. I don't see how you can't acknowledge that he still has lingering feelings for her when it's right in your face and Kakugo (someone experienced with the language) was able to clarify it to you as plain as day that 'girlfriend' was what they both meant. 

Also, I already covered the material about why I think Sakura has indecipherable feelings for Naruto. If you want proof, refer to the posts I made to ch1p.  



> As for Naruto's feelings and what is needed for him to fall for Hinata, I'll leave here what I have said elsewhere: Romance can happen quite quickly in fiction--just look at how fast Kushina fell for Minato.



But, it hasn't happened yet and it's near the end of the manga. It would be out of touch and out of place for Naruto to suddenly fall in love with her when he barely knows anything about her and he was never able to get close enough to her to fall in love with her. On another note, Hinata sacrificing her life for Naruto wasn't enough to make her fall in love with him, so what makes you think he will when he barely hangs out with the girl and doesn't know anything about her? 

Kushina's falling in love with Naruto was based more on the ideal that Minato made her feel like someone special and that she belonged, on top of that, Minato made her feel good about something she was insecure about and despised: her red hair. If anything, Kushina falling in love with Minato connects more with Sakura  falling in love with Naruto that way because Naruto was the one that told her that she had a large, charming forehead in the beginning. Sakura never knew that Naruto was the one that said that, and it would be something that made her feel good if he complimented it again as himself. Just as Minato complimented Kushina's red hair. 




> *I think that Naruto has been considering the possibilities* for some time now--ever since the Pain incident when Hinata dropped out of the sky and onto his radar. His interest was peaked and certainly appears to have grown if their interactions throughout the war arc are any indication.



 Possibilities of what exactly? Are you sure that you and I are reading the same manga because I'm pretty sure that Naruto has not thought of any such thing as getting closer to Hinata or nothing of the sort. Nor has there been any indication that Hinata is in his 'radar'. What the manga has shown and proven is that Sakura is still the apple of his eye and will remain so until there is proof showing that she isn't. 

There is no interest peaked from Naruto's end. Naruto merely regards Hinata with respect accompanied with appreciative and platonic gratitude. The only one in his radar is Sakura. If Hinata was supposedly in his radar, he wouldn't have made that comment about Sakura being his girlfriend when she was in his 'radar'. 

Isn't that obvious?


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## Naiki (Feb 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> If Sakura is not aware of those feelings, then that realisation is gonna be sudden. It wasn't a gradual growth of feelings, fruit of the constant development NS supposedly had. They are going to appear from one moment to the other.
> 
> Nothing stops Naruto from doing the exact same about having moved on from Sakura and etc..



I never said that Sakura was unaware of the feelings. I'm saying that she doesn't understand them/ can't decipher them. There's a difference between being unaware, but being aware yet not quite understanding what exactly you are feeling. In that way, it wouldn't be sudden realization, but gaining clarity. 

Sakura has shown romantic inclination from moment to moment since the beginning of part II, so I don't understand how you can say it wasn't gradual. Hell, even in part I, there were instances where Sakura does questionable things for Naruto. 

Nothing has stopped Naruto from moving on. In fact, I don't think he has moved on. He still thinks of her as his girlfriend, doesn't he? The fact that Sakura is in love with Sasuke hasn't stopped Naruto from loving her, has it? So, what's going to stop him? Because he certainly hasn't shown signs of moving on.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 22, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I never said that Sakura was unaware of the feelings. I'm saying that she doesn't understand them/ can't decipher them. There's a difference between being unaware, but being aware yet not quite understanding what exactly you are feeling. In that way, it wouldn't be sudden realization, but gaining clarity.



That amounts to the same as to what I said previously.

If Sakura doesn't understand those feelings, then that realisation is gonna be sudden. Nothing stops Naruto from doing the exact same about having moved on from Sakura and etc.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> First you had no problems doing the same, when you connected Kushina's words to Sakura hundred of chapters before that was done.
> -snip-



Yeah that's fair, it was a bit of a shitty argument on my part.



> Them not being alike doesn't stop you from saying Naruto and Dan were paralleld, when they are nothing alike besides the Hokage thing. It doesn't stop you from attempting to make a smartass comment relating YahiKonan with NaruSaku, just because Naruto is like Yahiko and yet Konan is nothing like Sakura (nothing whatsoever besides being females) and having stuff on their hair. It doesn't stop you from attempting to push MinaKushi as NaruSaku parallel when both Naruto and Sakura have been compared to Kushina.



Naruto and Dan _were_ paralleled though, Tsunade does it when she sees how serious Naruto is about becoming Hokage. That doesn't mean I'm claiming DanTsu parallels NS though, make no mistake.

I always thought that the Yahiko/Nagato/Konan thing was looking at what would have happened to team 7 had Naruto died. Yahiko is pretty much a Naruto clone like Obito used to be, it's not an unknown topic for Kishi to explore, he's done it to Naruto himself with Gaara and Sasuke (saying circumstances shape people). Anyway Yahiko=Naruto pretty easily, Konan fulfills the role of The Chick on the team which is likely sexist but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Naruto _has_ been compared to Minato a heck of a lot in part 2 as well, NS has the lockdown on MinaKushi parallels now that Sakura is explicitly similar to Kushina.



> You don't need to. However, you are pretending DanTsu // SasuSaku never existed when by your own definitions, it does exist. You have said MinaKushi // NaruSaku has been paralleled and tbh what was done carries less weight than DT / SS.



Dan being compared to Naruto previously puts a big dampener on DanTsu/SS for me. Also MinaKushi is easily the most developed/shown canon pairing to date and Naruto is very similar to his parents which gives parallels to it very large weight when talking about who Naruto will end up with. Not to mention it's _current_, something that DanTsu/SS certainly isn't.



> Only Sakura and Kushina were compared and the reason for it is because they're violent. In canon, the only people Kushina was violent was towards the people in the academy who teased her for her hair (Minato is not included in this) and Sakura has been violent towards more people than just Naruto (Konohamaru and Sai). On the other hand, Sasuke and Dan were brought as part of the people Sakura / Tsunade wanted to protect, and at the time it was canon that Sakura was in love with Sasuke and Tsunade was in love with Dan.



Kushina hit Naruto too when they first met .

Anyway, not only are Dan and Sasuke nothing alike in character, they also took _radically_ different paths in the story. Combine this with Naruto already being similar to both Dan and Nawaki and I arrive at my interpretation of the end of part 1 where Naruto/Sasuke are simply Sakura's special people she wanted to protect, just like Tsunade had two people.



> So was Sasuke and Dan in the office scene and Sasuke and Yahiko in that team spread (this one directly commented by Kishi that it was meant to be a comparison), whether you like it or not.



It has to fit with both previous and future events though, Dan and Sasuke are nothing alike in personality/manga acts and Yahiko is pretty much Naruto. 



> Take notice. I think this is all meaningless. I think Sakura / Kushina, Sasuke / Dan, Sasuke / Yahiko is meaningless. You're the one making a special case for Sakura / Kushina, and pretending SD and SY does not exist. I'm not using any of this as pairing backup, I'm saying this is all meaningless. On the other hand, you are using it as pairing backup.



I'm saying Sakura/Kushina has much fewer detractors from the argument than either Sasuke/Dan or Sasuke/Yahiko. If Kushina was canonically like another female in the manga who competed for Naruto's affections then I would be a hypocrite.



> Then you have no right in saying: 'there are also _*major*_ differences between Dan and Sasuke'. The fact is, Sasuke's whole motivation right now is similar to Dan, and he was brought in as a visual parallel once as well.



Sasuke = Dan because they lost someone and both want peace? Pull the other one, that describes half the characters in the manga, not to mention Sasuke wanting to be Hokage was a pretty severe left turn for his character.



> Like I've said, you're just cherry picking what's convenient to your pairing and  discarding everything else. I don't agree with that. Either take it all, or discard all. Take it all is useless, so IMO, discard it all is the right thing to do.



No, some differences are to be expected in parallels, Team 7 was not a carbon copy of the Sannin but it was heavily paralleled. There are some differences that are irreconcilable or if Naruto has already been drawn as similar to someone you're trying to parallel Sasuke with then I think it's really weak when you try to use it against NS/for SS.

In the case of MinaKushi we have Minato commenting Sakura is similar to Kushina, numerous panels where the involved parties have similar poses/scenarios and none of the possible pairings for Naruto or Sakura fit in MinaKushi (lol Hinata=Minato).



> 2/3 SS "parallels" are reciprocrated and the last one has about 3-4 points that make it debatable. I could use this as "proof" if I so wanted. I just think it's useless.



Again you just try to muddy the waters with parallels that involve Naruto-like characters and claiming they fit Sasuke.



> No, they can't. They can try though and I'd prefer this. This way, there wouldn't be burthurt feelings about nobody countering me and that I basked arrogantly in glory and cheerleading. I don't want to get into another tumblr war over what I say in this thread.



PM me details about this war, sounds pretty hilarious ^_^.



ch1p said:


> That's biased. I thought all three would get what they want and I didn't become an SS fan until FoD.



I also thought SS got a whole lot more likely in FoD especially when Hinata encouraged Naruto prior to the chunin exam, however the story moved on and it was not good for either of those pairings.



> Dude, it's a clich. Mothers like to be romantic councelors. How many teenage dramas exist where the mother attempts to give advice?



I guess Naruto is technically a teenage drama, it's a bit disingenuous to call it such though. Just because it's a cliche doesn't mean it's more likely than not to be there.



> Sakura tried to kill Sasuke because she thought there was no salvation for him, but that's not the case in 540 (she is hopeful of a bright future for Sasuke again). She thinking of him eating babies would still have been better than what she thought of him in Iron arc. He's "good" now though, which just defeats this argument even further.



No, that panel in 540 was darker than we've ever _seen_ Sakura think of Sasuke before. Also it's a great point that Sasuke is "good" because Sakura's smile plays on that perfectly (it's pretty clear something fucked up will happen).



> That's nice, but still utterly useless. NaruHina still hasn't had its "fake confession" moment. When they have something like that, with Naruto admitting Hinata is awesome but she still doesn't love him, then you can say NaruHina is sunk. SS is a different matter. It always hanged in the balance of what Sasuke's would be when he's redeemed.



Naruto effectively said Hinata was awesome when he encouraged her in the war arc. I also love how Sasuke gets a pass in SS for what he does before he's redeemed, it's a great representation of the pairing's mentality ^_^.



> You know who defended Sakura could be compared to Kushina before it happened? I did. You know who is defending Sakura can be compared to Rin (wasn't she already) before it happens? I am. I still don't think none of it matters.



I'm pretty sure everyone was drawing similarities between Sakura and Kushina ever since the Invasion of Konoha arc (and especially once Naruto met her). Kakashi also compared Team 7 with his old team _very_ early on. I'm not entirely sure what your point here is.



> I will not admit it's similar because it's not, outside of the very shallow.



Ah yes, any compliment to a physical feature that someone is worried about is a sign of shallowness .



> You think it's both, come on now.



You got me , but as I said I only used her words as evidence against an open ending.



> I see main character > secondary character is here. I was wondering when it would make an appearance.



It is one of my favourites ^_^.



> Why would Naruto's love be dropped? Because narratively, it's only about two things: comic relief and acknowledging Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are just that strong.



You're forgetting the pain whenever Naruto acknowledges Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as well as the continuation of his own feelings despite it. Not only that but it's been linked to his feelings of inadequacy regarding not being about to redeem Sasuke. Naruto's respect/love for Sakura has also been used a couple of times by Kishi to compliment Sakura's skills.



> No. I don't see how that changes anything though. I was always skeptical that Naruto would bring Sasuke back. I was right btw. Sasuke went "back" himself. He wants to be Hokage. He can't be Hokage if he doesn't come back.



"Back".



> Yes. Case in point, Tsunade. Probably Konan



Sasuke isn't dead, nor did Yahiko/Dan try to murder their partners .

Oh, good work on not using parallels btw.



> I say they are useless when they contradict each other.



.



> It doesn't matter if she has no faith. You people keep saying this as if it matters or changes anything. According to you she was 13 and had no faith, but she's 16 now and she still loves him. Lol faith.



3 unrequited pairings, something has to give. One person has no faith in their loved one, gee I wonder what's going to happen.



> Naruto also said he'd drag back Sasuke into the Leaf, but lolz that didn't happen either. You're being bias because you prefer Naruto to Sakura, that's all.



As I said I would like to see her involved in the Naruto vs Sasuke battle, however Kishi has repeatedly seemed to sideline her.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 23, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Naruto and Dan _were_ paralleled though, Tsunade does it when she sees how serious Naruto is about becoming Hokage.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Dan being compared to Naruto previously puts a big dampener on DanTsu/SS for me.



Like I said, Naruto was compared to Dan only when Sakura (and consequently Sasuke) weren't there for this.



> That doesn't mean I'm claiming DanTsu parallels NS though, make no mistake.



That's true. However, I'm speaking from a more general manner that 'parallels' suck, because they do suck. You may not use DanTsu / NarSak, but I've seen that happy, and from people that were truly serious about it. Hell, there was someone who dared to make a KakaRin / NarSak parallel once. 



> I always thought that the Yahiko/Nagato/Konan thing was looking at what would have happened to team 7 had Naruto died.



I disagree. Yahiko and Sasuke are clearly the man that is lot while Nagato and Naruto are clearly the hero that lost his way due to giving up and succumbing to the pain of loneliness. Naruto / Nagato / Gaara all fullfill the role of '_Naruto gone dark_', albeit in slightly different ways.



> Naruto _has_ been compared to Minato a heck of a lot in part 2 as well, NS has the lockdown on MinaKushi parallels now that Sakura is explicitly similar to Kushina.



Then how can you compare it to MinaKushi when Naruto already fulfills all that quota? At least, Sakura should be like Minato, for some balance to be adquired and for the parallel to '_work_'.

Furthermore, the MinaKushi parallel is quite shallow. We already know Sakura thinks Naruto is heroic without falling in love with him so that's out. All there's left for the pairing to be parallel would be the appearance compliment. Which by your own admission matters nothing so.



> Also MinaKushi is easily the most developed/shown canon pairing to date.



I disagree. They can be summarised like this: boy who watched girl from afar and girl who thought he was lame, boy proves himself to be a hero and comments on girl's appearance, with girl falling in love with him. That isn't development and it's actually quite shallow in nature (in comparisons, DanTsu was _much_ better in content).

MinaKushi is probably the most showcased though. However, just because it's shown more often, doesn't mean it matters much. NaruHina is actually the most showcased bond _in this war_ and you never gate it the edge from waht I remember of our past debates. If you disagree with ATM, then think of it as how it stood just after 615. It all can change if Kishi so may choses, it's not indicative of anything whatsoever.

Considering NarSak has been on the low end of the sepctrum since before the Pain arc until these past few chapters. NarSak hasn't had any development for a real long time. Sakura may appreciate Naruto more, but her mindset is precisely the same as the Chunin arc or Gaara arc, the only difference is that SHE can do something about things now instead of being "useless".



> Kushina hit Naruto too when they first met .



Sakura hit Konohamaru and Sai as well. Is she in love with them? Hell, is Kushina in love with Naruto? Why would the conclusion be MinaKushi = NaruSaku?



> Anyway, not only are Dan and Sasuke nothing alike in character, they also took _radically_ different paths in the story.



That's actually irrelevant because neither Minato nor Kushina are taking the same paths as Naruto / Sakura either, yet you compare.



> Combine this with Naruto already being similar to both Dan and Nawaki and I arrive at my interpretation of the end of part 1 where Naruto/Sasuke are simply Sakura's special people she wanted to protect, just like Tsunade had two people.



You're cherry picking what is and what isn't, according to your interpretation to fit your agenda, when there are several other valid interpretations for thing. Which is why I'm defending this whole parallel thing to pad pairings sucks. 



> It has to fit with both previous and future events though, Dan and Sasuke are nothing alike in personality/manga acts and Yahiko is pretty much Naruto.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Sasuke = Dan because they lost someone and both want peace? Pull the other one, that describes half the characters in the manga, not to mention Sasuke wanting to be Hokage was a pretty severe left turn for his character.



You have dismissed 'alike in personality' for the case of Sakura = Konan and Naruto = Dan. It doesn't matter if they are not alike in personality at all as far as you're concerned. As such, you are being selective when you say Sasuke = Dan in personality when you've dismissed this before.

I gave you a much longer list than just that for Sasuke = Dan. May I remind you they were visually / role parallel. Same for Sasuke = Yahiko, which you counter Yahiko = Naruto, without them EVER being compared in canon.



> I'm saying Sakura/Kushina has much fewer detractors from the argument than either Sasuke/Dan or Sasuke/Yahiko. If Kushina was canonically like another female in the manga who competed for Naruto's affections then I would be a hypocrite.



Sakura doesn't compete for Naruto's affections.



> No, some differences are to be expected in parallels.



That's precisely my point. Those 'differences' can be claimed by every single pairing opposition. NaruHina may say YahiKonan is actually alike them in personality and they will be _correct_.



> In the case of MinaKushi we have Minato commenting Sakura is similar to Kushina, numerous panels where the involved parties have similar poses/scenarios and none of the possible pairings for Naruto or Sakura fit in MinaKushi (lol Hinata=Minato).



No. You are misunderstaning Sakura = Kushina to MinaKushi = NaruSaku. They don't mean the same thing at all.



> Again you just try to muddy the waters with parallels that involve Naruto-like characters and claiming they fit Sasuke.



Excuse me. I'm the one saying parallels sucks precisely because you lot muddy the waters. You know, like Dan = Naruto are nothing alike in personality, but then you get all prissy about Dan = Sasuke because they are nothing alike in personality.



> I also thought SS got a whole lot more likely in FoD especially when Hinata encouraged Naruto prior to the chunin exam, however the story moved on and it was not good for either of those pairings.



The story can move on again, not an excuse, said this before.



> I guess Naruto is technically a teenage drama, it's a bit disingenuous to call it such though. Just because it's a cliche doesn't mean it's more likely than not to be there.



Yet, vegetables never brought again.



> No, that panel in 540 was darker than we've ever _seen_ Sakura think of Sasuke before.



She thought of killing him was the only solution. How can that panel be any worse?

Whether Sasuke is still a bit of a fuckup is irrelevant. THe fact is, he's fighting for the good guy's side. He's not longer the guy who stabbed people who were his teammates to get a cheap shot at an enemy.



> Naruto effectively said Hinata was awesome when he encouraged her in the war arc. I also love how Sasuke gets a pass in SS for what he does before he's redeemed, it's a great representation of the pairing's mentality ^_^.



Your passive-aggressiveness doesn't change what I said: NaruHina still hasn't had its "fake confession" moment. When they have something like that, with Naruto admitting Hinata is awesome but she still doesn't love him, then you can say NaruHina is sunk. SS is a different matter. It always hanged in the balance of what Sasuke's would be when he's redeemed.

I'm not here to discuss morality. Considering how Kishi runs things, neither is he. He's there to speak about bonds and all that bulshit.



> I'm pretty sure everyone was drawing similarities between Sakura and Kushina ever since the Invasion of Konoha arc (and especially once Naruto met her). Kakashi also compared Team 7 with his old team _very_ early on. I'm not entirely sure what your point here is.



That it doesn't matter whether it's there or not.



> Ah yes, any compliment to a physical feature that someone is worried about is a sign of shallowness .



But it is. Don't you lot dismiss Sakura's crush on Sakura in chapter 3 precisely for these reasons? That she was a shallow girl? Or is she only shallow as far as Sasuke is concerned?



> You got me , but as I said I only used her words as evidence against an open ending.



I never said he'd make open ending.



> It is one of my favourites ^_^.



That's shallow too, no offence..



> You're forgetting the pain whenever Naruto acknowledges Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as well as the continuation of his own feelings despite it. Not only that but it's been linked to his feelings of inadequacy regarding not being about to redeem Sasuke. Naruto's respect/love for Sakura has also been used a couple of times by Kishi to compliment Sakura's skills.



The pain that Naruto shows still comes with 'acceptance'. Since you're so keen on pointing out Sakura 'giving up' (whatever that means) is a clue, you should also understand why people tell you Naruto's 'acceptance' is important. Especially because he's the main character, if you're so keen on defending that as well. Why would he go back on his acceptance again?

I never said Naruto didn't compliment Sakura. What I said is that he's afraid of her and speaks of her skills like everyone else. It doesn't make him special.



> "Back".



Of course he did. He says he's gonna be Hokage. He can't Hokage outside the village. He's going to go back, until further notice.



> Sasuke isn't dead, nor did Yahiko/Dan try to murder their partners .



Nor is Naruto dead, yet you like to say Yahiko = Naruto.



> Oh, good work on not using parallels btw.



I'm only using them to prove how much this bulshit sucks. If you drop using then I will.



> .



But they are.



> 3 unrequited pairings, something has to give. One person has no faith in their loved one, gee I wonder what's going to happen.



Sakura had no faith in part 1 according to you yet it changed nothing. While Naruto has been shown to accept Sakura's feelings over Sasuke over and over again. Naruto's more likely to move on.



> As I said I would like to see her involved in the Naruto vs Sasuke battle, however Kishi has repeatedly seemed to sideline her.



Sakura's not going to fight Sasuke.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Feb 23, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Like I said, Naruto was compared to Dan only when Sakura (and consequently Sasuke) weren't there for this.



_But he was still compared_ and as a rival for Sakura's affections that's a deathblow to DanTsu=SS (in combination with the numerous other problems with equating Sasuke with Dan).



> That's true. However, I'm speaking from a more general manner that 'parallels' suck, because they do suck. You may not use DanTsu / NarSak, but I've seen that happy, and from people that were truly serious about it. Hell, there was someone who dared to make a KakaRin / NarSak parallel once.



If you want to say that NS's parallels suck, then you need to focus on the strong parallels rather than the weak ones. Bringing up KakaRin or DanTsu and saying that because they don't parallel NS despite some claims to the contrary then all parallels are stupid is a terrible argument.



> I disagree. Yahiko and Sasuke are clearly the man that is lot while Nagato and Naruto are clearly the hero that lost his way due to giving up and succumbing to the pain of loneliness. Naruto / Nagato / Gaara all fullfill the role of '_Naruto gone dark_', albeit in slightly different ways.



Yahiko had a much more similar personality to Naruto than Nagato did. As I said though as students of Jiraiya they both get paralleled to Naruto.



> Then how can you compare it to MinaKushi when Naruto already fulfills all that quota? At least, Sakura should be like Minato, for some balance to be adquired and for the parallel to '_work_'.



I'm not sure why you think there's a quota here, I'm saying Naruto can parallel either Minato or Kushina depending on the setting. In this case it's pretty clear that Naruto would be the new Minato and Sakura is reminiscent of Kushina.



> Furthermore, the MinaKushi parallel is quite shallow. We already know Sakura thinks Naruto is heroic without falling in love with him so that's out. All there's left for the pairing to be parallel would be the appearance compliment. Which by your own admission matters nothing so.



I give this leeway due to the nature of the romantic subplot, I'm still less than convinced of the ANS argument that Sakura already knows all of Naruto's good points and because she isn't in love with him because of them, she never will be. This seems like prime material for a revelation to me and as you've said previously it seems likely that's how any pairing will be canonized at this point.



> I disagree. They can be summarised like this: boy who watched girl from afar and girl who thought he was lame, boy proves himself to be a hero and comments on girl's appearance, with girl falling in love with him. That isn't development and it's actually quite shallow in nature (in comparisons, DanTsu was _much_ better in content).
> 
> MinaKushi is probably the most showcased though. However, just because it's shown more often, doesn't mean it matters much. NaruHina is actually the most showcased bond _in this war_ and you never gate it the edge from waht I remember of our past debates. If you disagree with ATM, then think of it as how it stood just after 615. It all can change if Kishi so may choses, it's not indicative of anything whatsoever.



Eh, sorry, I did mean showcased, I'm not really looking for depth in Naruto at this stage. Also NH jumped the gun on 615, as numerous people said it wasn't an indication of romantic feelings from Naruto and then the gf joke dumpstered that NH notion (which is why there's such a terrible debate over Naruto's words).



> Considering NarSak has been on the low end of the sepctrum since before the Pain arc until these past few chapters. NarSak hasn't had any development for a real long time. Sakura may appreciate Naruto more, but her mindset is precisely the same as the Chunin arc or Gaara arc, the only difference is that SHE can do something about things now instead of being "useless".



Hell no, in the Pain arc we had Sakura crying out for Naruto and Sakura hugging Naruto which were both solid NS moments. Then shortly after we had Sai talking with Naruto and Sakura about Naruto's feelings and then the fake confession and Naruto saving Sakura in a way that's highly reminiscent of MinaKushi . There was a bit of a lull since then however there was a world war on so I'm ok with that . We've also seen a definite shift in who Sakura instinctively defends between Sasuke and Naruto and that was evidenced around the time of the Kage Summit, which is a marked change from part 1 or even early part 2.

Finally NH hasn't really changed on Naruto's part since... pretty much the chunin exams.



> Sakura hit Konohamaru and Sai as well. Is she in love with them? Hell, is Kushina in love with Naruto? Why would the conclusion be MinaKushi = NaruSaku?



I never claimed that, stop trying to divert the issue. You claimed that Sakura wasn't like Kushina because while Sakura hits a lot of people, Kushina only hit her bullies. I thought this was funny because the first thing Kushina really does on panel is hit Naruto .



> That's actually irrelevant because neither Minato nor Kushina are taking the same paths as Naruto / Sakura either, yet you compare.



Naruto's taking a different path to Minato? You realize the whole reason Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto is so he could take this path right? Kushina didn't really have a path to herself as we didn't have enough screentime for her (other than helping Minato become Hokage/a father/a man).



> You're cherry picking what is and what isn't, according to your interpretation to fit your agenda, when there are several other valid interpretations for thing. Which is why I'm defending this whole parallel thing to pad pairings sucks.



No as always I take the path of what I view the most likely. When you have panels that don't fit with an interpretation (Sasuke being explicitly Dan when Naruto already had a bit of that comparison).



> You have dismissed 'alike in personality' for the case of Sakura = Konan and Naruto = Dan. It doesn't matter if they are not alike in personality at all as far as you're concerned. As such, you are being selective when you say Sasuke = Dan in personality when you've dismissed this before.



Naruto is explicitly similar to Dan from Tsunade's thoughts (again, not supporting the DanTsu parallel). Not only that but it was his determination to be Hokage that spurred the comparison. When Sasuke comes out of left field wanting to be Hokage, do you see how that determination simply isn't there yet? Sasuke is just too flighty/previously insane to get that.



> I gave you a much longer list than just that for Sasuke = Dan. May I remind you they were visually / role parallel. Same for Sasuke = Yahiko, which you counter Yahiko = Naruto, without them EVER being compared in canon.



The one on-panel comparison you have for Sasuke = Yahiko has Yahiko with pretty much the exact same expression as Naruto .



> Sakura doesn't compete for Naruto's affections.



You know what I meant.



> That's precisely my point. Those 'differences' can be claimed by every single pairing opposition. NaruHina may say YahiKonan is actually alike them in personality and they will be _correct_.



I would not say Konan has the same personality as Hinata, the shyness/low self esteem which were major components of part 1 Hinata are simply not there.



> No. You are misunderstaning Sakura = Kushina to MinaKushi = NaruSaku. They don't mean the same thing at all.



I'm using Sakura = Kushina in conjunction with the numerous other similarities of NS/MinaKushi, those comparison pics of the two pairings have been around forever and I'm sure you're familiar with them .



> Excuse me. I'm the one saying parallels sucks precisely because you lot muddy the waters. You know, like Dan = Naruto are nothing alike in personality, but then you get all prissy about Dan = Sasuke because they are nothing alike in personality.



Again you harp on Dan = Naruto, which is a parallel I couldn't give a shit about other than Tsunade made it when seeing Naruto's determination.



> The story can move on again, not an excuse, said this before.



Yes the story _could_ change, that's a terrible argument though.



> She thought of killing him was the only solution. How can that panel be any worse?



She wanted to kill him so that he wouldn't continue to get worse.



> Whether Sasuke is still a bit of a fuckup is irrelevant. THe fact is, he's fighting for the good guy's side. He's not longer the guy who stabbed people who were his teammates to get a cheap shot at an enemy.



That _*really*_ remains to be seen. We have both no one trusting Sasuke and the slash through Naruto in Team 7's picture that suggest there's more to Sasuke than meets the eye here.

Aside from that, the fact remains that he was the guy who stabbed team mates and you can't just throw that away because he's 'good' now.



> Your passive-aggressiveness doesn't change what I said: NaruHina still hasn't had its "fake confession" moment. When they have something like that, with Naruto admitting Hinata is awesome *but she still doesn't love him*, then you can say NaruHina is sunk. SS is a different matter. It always hanged in the balance of what Sasuke's would be when he's redeemed.
> 
> I'm not here to discuss morality. Considering how Kishi runs things, neither is he. He's there to speak about bonds and all that bulshit.



I assumed that was originally a typo, but for a "fake confession" moment you'd have Naruto admitted Hinata is awesome but Hinata not believing he actually loves her.

SS has been fucked for the longest time in part 2 and the fandom has been hoping it's on ice rather than bleeding out on the ground. The fact that Sakura is getting all these negative views of Sasuke seems to me to suggest the latter.



> But it is. Don't you lot dismiss Sakura's crush on Sakura in chapter 3 precisely for these reasons? That she was a shallow girl? Or is she only shallow as far as Sasuke is concerned?



I never mentioned shallowness in chapter 3, I was heavily disdainful of making your entire life goal be getting some guy (which at chapter 3 it was).



> I never said he'd make open ending.



Indeed, which is why I'm surprised we're bickering over Kushina's words like this.



> That's shallow too, no offence..



It has nothing to do with physical appearance and everything to do with how shounen work (especially power up/battle shounen).


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 23, 2014)

You've made me finally have to double post 



> The pain that Naruto shows still comes with 'acceptance'. Since you're so keen on pointing out Sakura 'giving up' (whatever that means) is a clue, you should also understand why people tell you Naruto's 'acceptance' is important. Especially because he's the main character, if you're so keen on defending that as well. Why would he go back on his acceptance again?



He accepted how much Sakura loved/loves Sasuke. This shouldn't really bother any NS fan as we have his words to Sai _about why Naruto hasn't confessed his feelings to Sakura_ (low self esteem from the promise/Sasuke issue). 



> Of course he did. He says he's gonna be Hokage. He can't Hokage outside the village. He's going to go back, until further notice.



Yes but it's not the same as actually being "back" with Team 7, as I mentioned before.



> Nor is Naruto dead, yet you like to say Yahiko = Naruto.



You've forgotten what this was about; I claimed Sakura could love who Sasuke used to be while also believing they won't return to that state (i.e. be redeemed), you 'agreed' used Yahiko and Dan as an example of this which I claimed was bullshit as they were dead and wasn't the same thing at all.



> I'm only using them to prove how much this bulshit sucks. If you drop using then I will.



You can't use an invalid argument to counter an invalid argument. 



> Sakura had no faith in part 1 according to you yet it changed nothing. While Naruto has been shown to accept Sakura's feelings over Sasuke over and over again. Naruto's more likely to move on.



Naruto was shown to accept Sakura's feelings for Sasuke in part 1 yet it changed nothing . More seriously though, as I said before Naruto hasn't shown his acceptance of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as a reason why he hasn't pursued her recently. With Naruto's nature you're going to need _something_ quite strong in order for him to give up on winning Sakura over.


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## Naiki (Feb 23, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That amounts to the same as to what I said previously.
> 
> If Sakura doesn't understand those feelings, then that realisation is gonna be sudden. Nothing stops Naruto from doing the exact same about having moved on from Sakura and etc.



I already explained the difference between not understanding the feelings and being unaware of them. I'm pretty sure that it's obvious that Sakura cares deeply about Naruto and I'm sure that Sakura is aware of this as well, but it is possible to be unclear of which one you feel the most: platonic love or romantic love. Her interactions with Naruto throughout the majority of the part two as well as in bits and pieces of part one hint that it is what she feels.

I know I shouldn't mention this, but one of the characteristics to Sakura's character is that she is a 'normal girl' which means that she's realistic. Most girls Sakura's age don't know what real love is and what's best for them romance-wise. Sakura is also characterized as being unable to understand men, which again, is something that normal teenage girls lack the ability to do. If that's the case, then I guess it's safe to assume that she doesn't understand what real love is either. Much like how some teenage girls go for the bad boys who treat them like crap but ignore the good guys, the nerds, etc. Sure, she thinks that her love for Sasuke is real, but all it does is tear her down and to be quite frank, the love she has is pretty superficial and rather unhealthy. Her evident feelings throughout the war arc and before then suggest such a thing. The love that Sakura has for Sasuke is nothing but childish, puppy-dog love that she hasn't yet let go. 

If anything, since Sakura is already seeing what an admirable person Naruto is right now, I can totally see her falling in love with Naruto in the future because with age, she matures and she comes to understand things better. 

There wouldn't be a sudden realization on Sakura's part. Again, it would be clarification and Sakura would be able to understand better what it is that she is feeling. 

As for Naruto, Sakura's love for Sasuke has never stopped Naruto from loving her and he still loves her, and deep down, he wishes for her happiness. Does this suggest that he doesn't want Sakura to love him? 

No. 

I'm pretty sure that Naruto wishes that someday she would come to love him. Hell, Sakura has already come to care deeply about him in an ambiguous way, mind you. But, the point I'm making is that Naruto's heart is with Sakura right now (literally) and until he finds someone else that he's romantically interested in, which he hasn't, then he will continue to love her. 

I don't see Naruto falling out of love with Sakura any time soon given that the boy wore his heart on his sleeves for so long, yet his seemingly unrequited love hasn't stopped him from seeing her the same way. Heck, even if Naruto 'moves on' right now, his heart would still be with Sakura.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 24, 2014)

It's endgame, folks, and it is Sakura who is there with Naruto, Minato, Gaara, and the ultimate big bad, not Hinata who was quite unceremoniously face-planted herself (I am sorry to say this, really I do, since I like Hinata as a character, but damn it that scene made me laugh. Kind of didn't believe Kishi pulled that one off, actually. It's like a joke panel for something so serious)

And it is Naruto who is Sakura's side in this endgame scenario, not Sasuke, although I admit things might change since Sasuke is 100000000000% more crucial to the overall plot than Hinata.

Also, I would like to throw this in, an oft forgotten panel put there by Kishimoto to... indicate something 



Interesting to see he chose to highlight "-san" and "-kun" particularly


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## CalmPurple (Feb 24, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> It's endgame, folks, and it is Sakura who is there with Naruto, Minato, Gaara, and the ultimate big bad, not Hinata who was quite unceremoniously face-planted herself (I am sorry to say this, really I do, since I like Hinata as a character, but damn it that scene made me laugh. Kind of didn't believe Kishi pulled that one off, actually. It's like a joke panel for something so serious)
> 
> And it is Naruto who is Sakura's side in this endgame scenario, not Sasuke, although I admit things might change since Sasuke is 100000000000% more crucial to the overall plot than Hinata.
> 
> ...



Nothing is endgame yet until the end of the war. Sakura hasn't dropped her feelings for Sasuke yet and we don't know if Naruto still loves Sakura in that way so nothing is endgame. Hinata hasn't gone anywhere so it isn't over for her either. Using  san or kun on the end of someone's name doesn't mean anything.


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## uzzyman95 (Feb 24, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> It's endgame, folks, and it is Sakura who is there with Naruto, Minato, Gaara, and the ultimate big bad, not Hinata who was quite unceremoniously face-planted herself (I am sorry to say this, really I do, since I like Hinata as a character, but damn it that scene made me laugh. Kind of didn't believe Kishi pulled that one off, actually. It's like a joke panel for something so serious)
> 
> And it is Naruto who is Sakura's side in this endgame scenario, not Sasuke, although I admit things might change since Sasuke is 100000000000% more crucial to the overall plot than Hinata.
> 
> ...



Endgame? No "pairing" has been established yet so at best this is a prediction. Although I'm not going to lie the Hinata panel cracked me up lol. Curious as to what chapter that's from?


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## pizza_blade (Feb 24, 2014)

CalmPurple said:


> Nothing is endgame yet until the end of the war. Sakura hasn't dropped her feelings for Sasuke yet and we don't know if Naruto still loves Sakura in that way so nothing is endgame. Hinata hasn't gone anywhere so it isn't over for her either. *Using  san or kun on the end of someone's name doesn't mean anything.*



You misunderstood. 

What I meant by end-game was the story itself, it has reached the end-game. The pieces are all there, and all the most important people right now are embroiled in the culmination of all the stories and events in Naruto. The most plot-critical people, the ones that really matter, are all here right now, ready to blaze through to the series' end.

So yeah.

As for the bolded, sure, you can view it that way. What a waste of pages for Kishimoto to poured into though, making specific panels and even explanations like that to the readers.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 24, 2014)

I don't see any pair officially being canon until the very, very end (like after the war) there's way too much important shit going on right now for Kishi to focus primarily on romance.


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## LesExit (Feb 24, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> What I meant by end-game was the story itself, it has reached the end-game. The pieces are all there, and all the most important people right now are embroiled in the culmination of all the stories and events in Naruto. The most plot-critical people, the ones that really matter, are all here right now, ready to blaze through to the series' end.
> 
> ...


Yes the story is near it's ending point. That doesn't mean the manga's ending in 5 chapters o___o Kishimoto can't do everything at once. Seems like you're implying that because a character isn't shown on panel _right now_, that it means they're not going to have any other importance which I don't understand....



Tom Servo said:


> I don't see any pair officially being canon until the very, very end (like after the war) there's way too much important shit going on right now for Kishi to focus primarily on romance.


 I'd imagine Kishimoto would want to wait as long as possibly to make a pairing truly canon. Perhaps they'll be some more big pairing moments during the war that will make one canon, if not then definitely after the war.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 25, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Yes the story is near it's ending point. That doesn't mean the manga's ending in 5 chapters o___o Kishimoto can't do everything at once. Seems like you're implying that because a character isn't shown on panel _right now_, that it means they're not going to have any other importance which I don't understand....



We'll see, but to tell you the truth, in terms of pairing, NaruSaku and SasuSaku are the ones that vying for the top spot right now, since all the players concerned are now involved in something that, in movie term, can be called a climax. 

I don't see something that is as important as a romantic interest for Naruto as the main character is being "developed" in the "closing scene" after the climax, although I guess, we'll see.


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## SoulFire (Feb 25, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> We'll see, but to tell you the truth, in terms of pairing, NaruSaku and SasuSaku are the ones that vying for the top spot right now, since all the players concerned are now involved in something that, in movie term, can be called a climax.
> 
> I don't see something that is as important as a romantic interest for Naruto as the main character is being "developed" in the "closing scene" after the climax, although I guess, we'll see.



I suspect that the story is going to stretch a bit farther past the current predicaments--I'm thinking the manga might come full circle with the facing of Orochimaru as the final villain, so there's plenty of time for further pairing developments all around.

I agree that the current plot point is all about the Team 7 players and their relationships: There's much that has to be resolved between them and this looks to be the time when Kishi tackles it.


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## Naiki (Feb 25, 2014)

People, don't forget that there is also a SasNar battle that's inevitably going to happen after the war, so obviously it's not completely over. I think everything will be settled after that, including pairings.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

A battle which might be more friendly than foe.
Remember the fight they had before Sasuke left the village? He didn't put his head band on, and that's how it all started.
I think after the war, the battle will be more of a friendly (still powerful) test of skills. 
After all, why have this war for peace if Sasuke is just going to leave again? It doesn't make sense.


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## LesExit (Feb 25, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> We'll see, but to tell you the truth, in terms of pairing, NaruSaku and SasuSaku are the ones that vying for the top spot right now, since all the players concerned are now involved in something that, in movie term, can be called a climax.
> 
> I don't see something that is as important as a romantic interest for Naruto as the main character is being "developed" in the "closing scene" after the climax, although I guess, we'll see.


Hinata not being there right now, does not mean that her importance is over, she's clearly going to meet with Naruto again eventually. Sasuke not being near Sakura right now, doesn't mean they aren't going to have any future developments either. As I said the manga is not ending in like 5 chapters XD The characters will meet again, Kishi will finish developments. They won't be _developed_ in the closing scene I think. It would more just be officially proved that previous suspicions to what that true development meant between the characters was correct.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

I don't think you guys understand: This manga won't be over for at least 5 months.


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## LesExit (Feb 25, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> I don't think you guys understand: This manga won't be over for at least 5 months.


I'd say at least a year and a half O____O


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 25, 2014)

Naiki said:


> People, don't forget that there is also a SasNar battle that's inevitably going to happen after the war, so obviously it's not completely over. I think everything will be settled after that, including pairings.





MichaelInsanity said:


> A battle which might be more friendly than foe.
> Remember the fight they had before Sasuke left the village? He didn't put his head band on, and that's how it all started.
> I think after the war, the battle will be more of a friendly (still powerful) test of skills.
> After all, why have this war for peace if Sasuke is just going to leave again? It doesn't make sense.



this. Sasuke and Naruto's battle will be a friendly battle with no killing intent.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 25, 2014)

pathos....why did you delete your post ?


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## Naiki (Feb 25, 2014)

What I don't think you guys understand is that what Sasuke seeks to annihilate is the Bijuu, which can ultimately spell as a problem for Naruto later on down the line. Naruto will more than likely have Kurama back inside of him after this, and without the Bijuu inside of him, there is no way he can possibly live. Do you guys really think that Naruto is just going to stand by and let Sasuke destroy the Bijuu after he recently just formed a bond with Kurama and the others?

The final battle between them will be more than just a friendly sparring match. More than likely, Sasuke will become the new Danzo with his agenda to recreate the current Konoha and rebuild a new one. 

It's obvious that Sasuke isn't thinking in the best interest of everyone, but himself, which will ultimately be his downfall. Sasuke doesn't care about anyone, but himself. He admitted so when he declared that he wanted to become Hokage. 

Sure, there might not be any killing intent from Naruto's camp, but in Sasuke's camp, it's questionable since Naruto is the Jinchuriki of something that Sasuke wants to destroy. 

{x}
{x}

It's obvious that Sasuke is up to something devious involving the Bijuu and it does not spell as good. Sai, Jugo, and even Sakura picked up on this. Here, she's even crying because she knows right off the bat.

{x}


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## Hitt (Feb 25, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> A battle which might be more friendly than foe.



Are you kidding me?  Who in their right mind thinks this will be some friendly spar?

This will be a bloody battle to the death, as foreshadowed.  I don't think anyone will actually die because lol Kishi but you need to seriously reconsider if you think this will be some fun shindig between them.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

IDK about you, but Sasuke had many chances to kill Naruto during this war. If he hasn't killed him yet, I doubt he'll attempt to when they fight.


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## ch1p (Feb 25, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> _But he was still compared_ and as a rival for Sakura's affections that's a deathblow to DanTsu=SS (in combination with the numerous other problems with equating Sasuke with Dan).



It's not a deathblow, because Kushina was compared to Karin and Naruto and yet you consider the MinaKushi parallel valid. You're being stubborn because you don't like the implications that all this defending is selective reading and amounts to anything.



> If you want to say that NS's parallels suck, then you need to focus on the strong parallels rather than the weak ones.



That's selective reading.



> Bringing up KakaRin or DanTsu and saying that because they don't parallel NS despite some claims to the contrary then all parallels are stupid is a terrible argument.



Excuse me, but where is the NaruSaku and MinaKushi parallel and the ObiRin and NaruSaku parallel? The former never happened and the latter is yet to happen. You are doing selective reading and you're jumping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever.



> Yahiko had a much more similar personality to Naruto than Nagato did. As I said though as students of Jiraiya they both get paralleled to Naruto.
> (...)
> The one on-panel comparison you have for Sasuke = Yahiko has Yahiko with pretty much the exact same expression as Naruto



You do not care about personality being alike for Dan // Naruto or Sakura // Konan.



> I'm not sure why you think there's a quota here, I'm saying Naruto can parallel either Minato or Kushina depending on the setting. In this case it's pretty clear that Naruto would be the new Minato and Sakura is reminiscent of Kushina.



Yes, you can fit the comparisons to whatever you want, which is yet more selective reading.



> I give this leeway due to the nature of the romantic subplot, I'm still less than convinced of the ANS argument that Sakura already knows all of Naruto's good points and because she isn't in love with him because of them, she never will be. This seems like prime material for a revelation to me and as you've said previously it seems likely that's how any pairing will be canonized at this point.



You give leeway because you're bias. You had no issue throwing Sakura's statement of wanting Sasuke as a boyfriend under the bus because she was sort of reproached (but not really) by Kakashi as if that even mattered considering she fell for him for real. Yet you're there defending that the only thing that counts as a parallel for MinaKushi is also something that happened at the exact same time you consider Sakura foolish. You're cherry picking on what the 'appropriate' behavior for Sakura is.



> Eh, sorry, I did mean showcased, I'm not really looking for depth in Naruto at this stage. Also NH jumped the gun on 615, as numerous people said it wasn't an indication of romantic feelings from Naruto and then the gf joke dumpstered that NH notion (which is why there's such a terrible debate over Naruto's words).



You defend Tsunade could have loved two men at the same time at the time of the Pain arc (it's evident she loves Dan still during the war). You have no ground to stand on when you say 615 is not an indicative of romantic feelings when this could be the exact same situation here.

Not that I believe this, but once again this is just another instance when you don't hold pairings to the same standards.



> Hell no, in the Pain arc we had Sakura crying out for Naruto and Sakura hugging Naruto which were both solid NS moments.



Which are still platonic, considering 540, as such irrelevant.



> Then shortly after we had Sai talking with Naruto and Sakura about Naruto's feelings.



Sai's flashback predates the attack on the Leaf, as all buildings are intact in it. What I said is precisely this.



> then the fake confession


[

Which isn't good for NarSak.



> Naruto saving Sakura in a way that's highly reminiscent of MinaKushi .



Ehr, Kushina wasn't being killed by the guy that she loved. You're saying just because he picked her 'bridal style' or whatever that shit is. When Sasuke has picked Sakura 'bridal style' as well.



> There was a bit of a lull since then however there was a world war on so I'm ok with that . We've also seen a definite shift in who Sakura instinctively defends between Sasuke and Naruto and that was evidenced around the time of the Kage Summit, which is a marked change from part 1 or even early part 2.



Whether you're okay with it or not isn't the issue here. The point here is that things can 'hit the rut' for a really long time' and things can get development out of nowhere. You told me you agreed with the pairing's being resolved through 'sudden realisation' after all.



> Finally NH hasn't really changed on Naruto's part since... pretty much the chunin exams.



That's a lie. When has Naruto said he could look in Hinata's eyes and read what was there, when has Naruto stated that she had always been by his side?



> I never claimed that, stop trying to divert the issue. You claimed that Sakura wasn't like Kushina because while Sakura hits a lot of people, Kushina only hit her bullies. I thought this was funny because the first thing Kushina really does on panel is hit Naruto .



I didn't say Kushina wasn't like Sakura because they hit different types of people. I said MinaKushi is not like NaruSaku because Kushina only ever hit people who annoy her (including Naruto) and has never hit Minato as far as we're aware, and Sakura only has ever hit people who annoy her like Naruto / Konohamaru / Sai. Hitting is not a MinaKushi // NaruSaku parallel. It's actually KushiNaru and NarSaku parallel, with the former being a family bond. I'm not saying NaruSaku is a familial bond, but that's what you guys are defending when you come up with this comparison.



> Naruto's taking a different path to Minato? You realize the whole reason Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto is so he could take this path right? Kushina didn't really have a path to herself as we didn't have enough screentime for her (other than helping Minato become Hokage/a father/a man).



Yes, the path Minato never took. He left everything to his child instead of trying to save the world himself. The role is very different here.



> No as always I take the path of what I view the most likely. When you have panels that don't fit with an interpretation (Sasuke being explicitly Dan when Naruto already had a bit of that comparison).



I'm not saying Dan / Sasuke is an argument. I'm telling you that it was made, yet it doesn't mean anything for the pairing subplot, just likke Naruto // Dan doesn't mean anything for the pairing subplot. You're attempting to make me sound like I said something I never did.



> Naruto is explicitly similar to Dan from Tsunade's thoughts (again, not supporting the DanTsu parallel). Not only that but it was his determination to be Hokage that spurred the comparison.



So was Sasuke, and it was done when Sakura was actually present.



> When Sasuke comes out of left field wanting to be Hokage, do you see how that determination simply isn't there yet?



Why do you doubt him? Sasuke has technically achieved 1/2 of his goal (killing his brother) just like Naruto (getting his village acknowledgement)? 

I'm not saying Sasuke will get to be Hokage, but there is plenty of determination there, Sasuke was the guy who left his friends and went to the devil for power so he could achieve his goals. This is the guy who laughed while shoving his arm through his best friend's lung, because he was getting closer to what he wanted. Naruto isn't half that ruthless.



> Sasuke is just too flighty/previously insane to get that.



Dude. Dan didn't get to be Hokage either. 



> You know what I meant.



That she's Naruto's love interest? So what of it?



> I would not say Konan has the same personality as Hinata, the shyness/low self esteem which were major components of part 1 Hinata are simply not there.



Hinata has low self esteem ATM in which universe? They're calm and shy, and they like the loudmouth who has a shit eating grin.



> I'm using Sakura = Kushina in conjunction with the numerous other similarities of NS/MinaKushi, those comparison pics of the two pairings have been around forever and I'm sure you're familiar with them .



Yes, that means Kushina is similar to Sakura. However, how does this mean *Naru*Saku? You don't go for parallels there, you go for an oddity throwaway line from Kushina that is the exact same context-wise as a million others.



> Again you harp on Dan = Naruto, which is a parallel I couldn't give a shit about other than Tsunade made it when seeing Naruto's determination.



I don't harp on anything.



> Yes the story _could_ change, that's a terrible argument though.



That's your point when you say 'sudden realisation' from Sakura. She's in love with Sasuke and him alone, stating it just one day before.



> She wanted to kill him so that he wouldn't continue to get worse.
> 
> That _*really*_ remains to be seen. We have both no one trusting Sasuke and the slash through Naruto in Team 7's picture that suggest there's more to Sasuke than meets the eye here.



Yeah, she lost faith in him completely. How is she gonna surpass that when he's sort of redeemed and fighting by her side? Don't tell me, _the story can change_ and Sasuke goes back to a bigger monster than what he used to be.



> Aside from that, the fact remains that he was the guy who stabbed team mates and you can't just throw that away because he's 'good' now.



Come on now, this is Kishi. The guy who made Hashirama say that a guy who killed his own parents was a better ninja than him and who has been santified more than once.



> I assumed that was originally a typo, but for a "fake confession" moment you'd have Naruto admitted Hinata is awesome but Hinata not believing he actually loves her.



That never happened. 



> SS has been fucked for the longest time in part 2 and the fandom has been hoping it's on ice rather than bleeding out on the ground. The fact that Sakura is getting all these negative views of Sasuke seems to me to suggest the latter.



You are wrong. Like I said, she already went through her most negative phase before. This isn't going to be deal breaker when we've already been through it, and nothing changed.


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## ch1p (Feb 25, 2014)

> I never mentioned shallowness in chapter 3, I was heavily disdainful of making your entire life goal be getting some guy (which at chapter 3 it was).



Shallowness, being disdainful, the same thing context wise. Sakura thinking someone commenting on her forehead was naive. It is negative. It's interesting you think negativity only matters when it's about a matter which is settled (Sakura's trust in Sasuke).



> Indeed, which is why I'm surprised we're bickering over Kushina's words like this.



You think they matter for NaruSaku, I don't.



> It has nothing to do with physical appearance and everything to do with how shounen work (especially power up/battle shounen).



That would be true if Naruto hadn't spent most of part 2 going about with comic relief towards Sakura, coupled with Sakura / Hinata's loves hadn't been taken so seriously. Is there a shonen where a similar thing happens? Where the hero is flighty about his feelings for the girl yet hehe ends up with her, despite the girl loving another and another girl loving him and their feelings being treated as very serious business?



Mr Horrible said:


> You've made me finally have to double post



Work it.



> He accepted how much Sakura loved/loves Sasuke. This shouldn't really bother any NS fan as we have his words to Sai _about why Naruto hasn't confessed his feelings to Sakura_ (low self esteem from the promise/Sasuke issue).



It should bother them, because all serious business NarSak has is Naruto backing off in the face of SasuSaku.



> Yes but it's not the same as actually being "back" with Team 7, as I mentioned before.



Sakura's big issues with him were that he was in darkness and attempting to destroy her village. That takes precedance over team 7 or her own idnvidual feelings about it.



> You've forgotten what this was about; I claimed Sakura could love who Sasuke used to be while also believing they won't return to that state (i.e. be redeemed), you 'agreed' used Yahiko and Dan as an example of this which I claimed was bullshit as they were dead and wasn't the same thing at all.



I'm not forgetting anything. I'm dismissing it because it's meaningless.



> You can't use an invalid argument to counter an invalid argument.



You can't say a parallel validates another pairing's resolution either, yet here we are.



> Naruto was shown to accept Sakura's feelings for Sasuke in part 1 yet it changed nothing .



I don't think that matters at all, not because it changed nothing, but because Naruto hasn't shown he's serious for a real, real long time.



> More seriously though, as I said before Naruto hasn't shown his acceptance of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as a reason why he hasn't pursued her recently. With Naruto's nature you're going to need _something_ quite strong in order for him to give up on winning Sakura over.



No, Naruto hasn't pursued Sakura at all in the entirety of part 2. I don't care about getting what he wants just because he's been a nice guy. When the manga is actually about working for the things you want. Like Hinata is doing ATM and like Sakura, once upon a time.



Naiki said:


> I already explained the difference between not understanding the feelings and being unaware of them.



There is no difference. Sakura will still be realising things at a drop a hat, which is the exact same for Naruto realising he actually doesn't love Sakura anymore.

I don't know if you wrote more than this. Your argument relies on one side being cattered to while the other cannot be, under no circunstance and is easily countered by what I said above.



pizza_blade said:


> It's endgame, folks, and it is Sakura who is there with Naruto, Minato, Gaara, and the ultimate big bad, not Hinata who was quite unceremoniously face-planted herself (I am sorry to say this, really I do, since I like Hinata as a character, but damn it that scene made me laugh. Kind of didn't believe Kishi pulled that one off, actually. It's like a joke panel for something so serious)



Sakura is protecting Naruto from harm, like she said she would like in part 1 where she was in love with Sasuke instead.



pizza_blade said:


> Also, I would like to throw this in, an oft forgotten panel put there by Kishimoto to... indicate something
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting to see he chose to highlight "-san" and "-kun" particularly



How is this interesting when Sakura doesn't call Sai-kun and Hinata calls Kiba-kun and Shino-kun, which are her teammates?



MichaelInsanity said:


> A battle which might be more friendly than foe.
> Remember the fight they had before Sasuke left the village? He didn't put his head band on, and that's how it all started.
> I think after the war, the battle will be more of a friendly (still powerful) test of skills.
> After all, why have this war for peace if Sasuke is just going to leave again? It doesn't make sense.



That's what I think so too. We already had VotE, we don't need VotE 2.0, nobody will care. Furthermore, Naruto told Sasuke, that VotE wasn't the fight he so wanted, so why not use that fabled 'Naruto is the main character, he gets what he wants' argument and let him have that friendly fight like he so wanted back then.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

Yea it'd just be another cliche fight to the death and I think we all know what'd happen either way.


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## LesExit (Feb 25, 2014)

Naiki said:


> It's obvious that Sasuke isn't thinking in the best interest of everyone, but himself, which will ultimately be his downfall. Sasuke doesn't care about anyone, but himself. He admitted so when he declared that he wanted to become Hokage.


Perhaps killing the bijuu isn't the answer...perhaps it is!? Maybe Naruto will be able to convince him it's not necessary in order to put a change to the twisted system in their world.
I don't think Sasuke's being too selfish lately actually....I think he honestly acknowledges that theres a serious problem in the ninja world, and he wants to make it better and put a stop to all the corruption! So...I think Naruto and Sasuke could maybe work things out.



MichaelInsanity said:


> Yea it'd just be another cliche fight to the death and I think we all know what'd happen either way.


Naru-kuns #1 hokage-sama hero would win :33

I don't see how either Sasuke or Naruto dying would get a good message across, unless it's to die for the greater good or something?? I'm pretty sure in order to show how the world is not going to go back in the same cycle of hatred as before, both Naruto and Sasuke are going to have to come together. Not fight to the death ⊙▃⊙
They both want to change things, so I'd like to think'd they'd be able to come together.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It's not a deathblow, because Kushina was compared to Karin and Naruto and yet you consider the MinaKushi parallel valid. You're being stubborn because you don't like the implications that all this defending is selective reading and amounts to anything.



Let's see, on the one hand we have SS vs NS, which with Lee seemingly out of the picture are the major possible pairings for Sakura. On the other we have NaruKarin vs NS and the first one just hasn't featured pretty much ever. Surely you can see a difference here right? It's not selective reading when the parallel jumps out and bites you on the nose btw, MinaKushi-NS should be considered obvious since Minato's comparison.

I guess this is where I argue you're the one engaging in selective reading to get around it.



> That's selective reading.



Continue to focus on the weak arguments rather than the strong ones then.



> Excuse me, but where is the NaruSaku and MinaKushi parallel and the ObiRin and NaruSaku parallel? The former never happened and the latter is yet to happen. You are doing selective reading and you're jumping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever.



I'm not sure why you're holding out for specific explicit pairing parallels, that has never happened in this story. What Kishi does is parallel characters and you can look at the relationship between them to claim a pairing is paralleled. As I've said numerous times, Naruto parallels both Minato and Kushina (in terms of strict parallels he's been compared to Minato/the fourth Hokage more IIRC). Sakura-Kushina parallels have been floating around ever since her introduction and Minato confirmed this (again, anyone with a brain should have seen it though).

Team Minato(idk its name) has been compared to Team 7 several times by Kakashi. Sasuke=Kakashi, Naruto=Obito and Sakura=Rin (by virtue of being the medic chick), Obito/Naruto both loved Rin/Sakura who loved Kakashi/Sasuke. You say I'm jumping to conclusions when I parallel NS to ObitoRin? 



> You do not care about personality being alike for Dan // Naruto or Sakura // Konan.



Dan // Naruto was done by Tsunade, idk why you're fighting that so hard. Sakura // Konan I've also explained my reasoning for (namely I think Kishi is sexist here and they parallel because they are both female).



> Yes, you can fit the comparisons to whatever you want, which is yet more selective reading.



I fit the comparisons how I view the story means them to fit.



> You give leeway because you're bias. You had no issue throwing Sakura's statement of wanting Sasuke as a boyfriend under the bus because she was sort of reproached (but not really) by Kakashi as if that even mattered considering she fell for him for real. Yet you're there defending that the only thing that counts as a parallel for MinaKushi is also something that happened at the exact same time you consider Sakura foolish. You're cherry picking on what the 'appropriate' behavior for Sakura is.



I'm biased against dreams that involve the romantic subplot in a shounen, especially when the main character is involved and not the focus. This has nothing to do with whether I like SS or not, it was a "wait and see" for me from day 1.



> You defend Tsunade could have loved two men at the same time at the time of the Pain arc (it's evident she loves Dan still during the war). You have no ground to stand on when you say 615 is not an indicative of romantic feelings when this could be the exact same situation here.
> 
> Not that I believe this, but once again this is just another instance when you don't hold pairings to the same standards.



I read what is on the panels, Tsunade said she was going to give Jiraiya a chance, what the fuck do you think that meant?



> Which are still platonic, considering 540, as such irrelevant.



Ah, this is where I pull the author intent card. There's no way in hell Kishi drew that hug without realising what fans would think (platonic or not), as such is does fit as NS occuring in that time interval.



> Sai's flashback predates the attack on the Leaf, as all buildings are intact in it. What I said is precisely this.



This is a story, it was shown after the Pain arc, stop being obtuse.



> Which isn't good for NarSak.



/shrug, it was development nonetheless.



> Ehr, Kushina wasn't being killed by the guy that she loved. You're saying just because he picked her 'bridal style' or whatever that shit is. When Sasuke has picked Sakura 'bridal style' as well.



I wasn't talking about how Sakura got in that situation, but how she was rescued .
[sp][/sp]



> Whether you're okay with it or not isn't the issue here. The point here is that things can 'hit the rut' for a really long time' and things can get development out of nowhere. You told me you agreed with the pairing's being resolved through 'sudden realisation' after all.



That rut was much shorter than you're claiming, I also think that a 'sudden realisation' has to have build up (read: development) as well.



> That's a lie. When has Naruto said he could look in Hinata's eyes and read what was there, when has Naruto stated that she had always been by his side?



He can read Hinata's eyes because she never changes .



> I didn't say Kushina wasn't like Sakura because they hit different types of people. I said MinaKushi is not like NaruSaku because Kushina only ever hit people who annoy her (including Naruto) and has never hit Minato as far as we're aware, and Sakura only has ever hit people who annoy her like Naruto / Konohamaru / Sai. Hitting is not a MinaKushi // NaruSaku parallel. It's actually KushiNaru and NarSaku parallel, with the former being a family bond. I'm not saying NaruSaku is a familial bond, but that's what you guys are defending when you come up with this comparison.



Are you trying to claim Sakura treats Naruto like a son? 



> Yes, the path Minato never took. He left everything to his child instead of trying to save the world himself. The role is very different here.



Now _that's_ selective reading.



> So was Sasuke, and it was done when Sakura was actually present.



So both of them were compared to Dan right? In which case the DanTsu=SS thing falls on its face.



> Why do you doubt him? Sasuke has technically achieved 1/2 of his goal (killing his brother) just like Naruto (getting his village acknowledgement)?
> 
> I'm not saying Sasuke will get to be Hokage, but there is plenty of determination there, Sasuke was the guy who left his friends and went to the devil for power so he could achieve his goals. This is the guy who laughed while shoving his arm through his best friend's lung, because he was getting closer to what he wanted. Naruto isn't half that ruthless.



Because Sasuke wanting to be Hokage is a very new thing and there's shit going on under the surface there. Are you really trying to say that Sasuke's current determination to be Hokage is equal to Naruto's?



> Dude. Dan didn't get to be Hokage either.



Dude didn't try to kill Tsunade/her team mates/the rest of Konoha several times either.



> Hinata has low self esteem ATM in which universe? They're calm and shy, and they like the loudmouth who has a shit eating grin.



"In part 1".



> Yes, that means Kushina is similar to Sakura. However, how does this mean *Naru*Saku? You don't go for parallels there, you go for an oddity throwaway line from Kushina that is the exact same context-wise as a million others.



Because Naruto is similar to Minato (see; every powerup Naruto has had since SM). Not only that but it was Sakura's interaction with Naruto that reminded Minato of Kushina.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 25, 2014)

> That's your point when you say 'sudden realisation' from Sakura. She's in love with Sasuke and him alone, stating it just one day before.



She doesn't trust him, she thinks of him standing in flames and shit, she's currently crying over Naruto's half dead body, do I have to go on for why I view a 'sudden realisation' sometime on Sakura's part as likely?



> Yeah, she lost faith in him completely. How is she gonna surpass that when he's sort of redeemed and fighting by her side? Don't tell me, _the story can change_ and Sasuke goes back to a bigger monster than what he used to be.



I wouldn't view Sasuke trying to kill the Kyuubi (and therefore sacrifice Naruto) for his ideal of peace as unlikely, in fact I think it's the most probable route at the moment. Finally I'd let Sakura's viewpoint play out right now because it is not the same as it was previously.



> Come on now, this is Kishi. The guy who made Hashirama say that a guy who killed his own parents was a better ninja than him and who has been santified more than once.



His parents _were_ plotting a coup against Konoha, Naruto is pretty much blameless of anything.



> That never happened.



We were talking hypotheticals, wherein you said NH didn't have a fake confession moment and your wording confused me.



> You are wrong. Like I said, she already went through her most negative phase before. This isn't going to be deal breaker when we've already been through it, and nothing changed.



And again; something has to give somewhere. When there's finally movement on Sakura's part as well as SS's history, what do you want me to say?



ch1p said:


> Shallowness, being disdainful, the same thing context wise. Sakura thinking someone commenting on her forehead was naive. It is negative. It's interesting you think negativity only matters when it's about a matter which is settled (Sakura's trust in Sasuke).



I'm not even sure you have a point here, the story had different tones for those two events.



> You think they matter for NaruSaku, I don't.



Alright then, let's do this.

I think when you have the main character's dead mother say he should find a girl like her and when he's liked *said girl* for 600 chapters, then competing pairings are of pretty fucking thin ice.



> That would be true if Naruto hadn't spent most of part 2 going about with comic relief towards Sakura, coupled with Sakura / Hinata's loves hadn't been taken so seriously. Is there a shonen where a similar thing happens? Where the hero is flighty about his feelings for the girl yet hehe ends up with her, despite the girl loving another and another girl loving him and their feelings being treated as very serious business?



Naruto/Sakura does get played for comic relief often, but there's also serious undertones in there. As you said yourself, the recent girlfriend comment was comic relief but it simply wouldn't make sense unless Naruto still liked Sakura (and didn't feel that way about Hinata). Then pretty much everything concerning the PoaL is straight up drama for Naruto/Sakura, as well as any time Naruto rescues Sakura or Sakura heals Naruto.



> It should bother them, because all serious business NarSak has is Naruto backing off in the face of SasuSaku.



Acknowledging =! backing off, your statement there simply isn't backed up when there are solutions explicitly confirmed by canon (Naruto backing off because of low self esteem~).



> Sakura's big issues with him were that he was in darkness and attempting to destroy her village. That takes precedance over team 7 or her own idnvidual feelings about it.



So then why does Sakura still have a big issue with Sasuke?



> You can't say a parallel validates another pairing's resolution either, yet here we are.



Parallels are not about validation, they're about likelihood. As far as validation goes you need to look at personalities and relationships and I don't really care to do that here (although you're free to look at the NS fc to see why people like the pairing).



> I don't think that matters at all, not because it changed nothing, but because Naruto hasn't shown he's serious for a real, real long time.



*Naruto showed he's serious to Sai.*
*Nothing changes.*
*Naruto's feelings again confirmed in the girlfriend comment.*

But sure, let's assume Naruto's feelings have changed from serious to light because of reasons.



> No, Naruto hasn't pursued Sakura at all in the entirety of part 2. I don't care about getting what he wants just because he's been a nice guy. When the manga is actually about working for the things you want. Like Hinata is doing ATM and like Sakura, once upon a time.



Naruto hasn't seriously pursued Sakura for most of part 2, IIRC he did ask her on a date at the beginning. As I said previously though, we know why this is and it's not because Sakura loves Sasuke.



> That's what I think so too. We already had VotE, we don't need VotE 2.0, nobody will care. Furthermore, Naruto told Sasuke, that VotE wasn't the fight he so wanted, so why not use that fabled 'Naruto is the main character, he gets what he wants' argument and let him have that friendly fight like he so wanted back then.



It's a fun argument though isn't it? I must point out that you do seem to be using my arguments quite a bit though .

However Naruto has been going to redeem Sasuke for 400~ chapters now, if he's redeemed beforehand then it'd be a pretty huge anti-climax.



LesExit said:


> I don't see how either Sasuke or Naruto dying would get a good message across, unless it's to die for the greater good or something??





No one is saying Naruto would intentionally kill Sasuke either.


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## Naiki (Feb 25, 2014)

Here's what I think is going on:

Sasuke is going to try to kill the Bijuu in order to bring about his own sense of peace, thus sacrificing Naruto, which probably won't sit well with the village _or_ Sakura. 

This will ultimately lead to the Naruto v. Sasuke fight, which will most likely result in someone getting seriously hurt/dying or someone being banished from the village, most likely Sasuke. 

Sakura is going to obviously be on Naruto's side when the Naruto v. Sasuke fight comes up because this will be a test on who she stands behind. There's no way in hell that she would stand behind Sasuke after fully become aware of what his real goal is as well as knowing that his plan will harm Naruto in the process. 

That's as far as I can speculate, but I guarantee that this is what's going to happen when all of that comes to surface. But, I'm going to go with Mr. Horrible above, and say that Redemption equals Death would be a good choice for Sasuke. If Naruto doesn't kill Sasuke, which I doubt he'll do intentionally, then I might go a step further and say that Sasuke might wake up and actually 'do the right thing' for once and commit suicide. 

He told Itachi that he should've died along with his parents and his clan, remember? So, I can totally see him doing so in order to reunite with his family in the afterlife. That would be a very bittersweet ending to Sasuke's character.

{x}


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 25, 2014)

Can I just comment on the almost defensive and adamant way "SHE LOVES HIM" is argued now for SS? I think it's just kind of hilarious. It's about the only lifeline going for it and I think everyone knows that, and that is why that particular matter is defended so adamantly. If that changes it's dead, gone, done. There aren't really any redeeming characteristics to it, so that particular fact of Sakura's feelings is latched on like one's life depended on it. 

Seriously there's so little going for it compared to the other two. I mean, if it wasn't already obvious with Sasuke trying to kill her multiple times already. It's not like Sakura herself is particularly a stable person on the matter either.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm sorry, is this the debate thread, or the bash ships and characters thread? I really couldn't tell Seto 

@Naiki, I see where you're coming from, but if the series is ending this year, it'd be crazy to drag it out with a half assed (no offense intended) ending .-. Also, you can't kill the tailed beasts, they simply reform unless sealed away. I'll post the source for that once I find it.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 25, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> I'm sorry, is this the debate thread, or the bash ships and characters thread? I really couldn't tell Seto .



Bringing up legitimate shortcomings is more than just bashing, since it's clear you can't distinguish that either.


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## Naiki (Feb 25, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> @Naiki, I see where you're coming from, but if the series is ending this year, it'd be crazy to drag it out with a half assed (no offense intended) ending .-. *Also, you can't kill the tailed beasts, they simply reform unless sealed away.* I'll post the source for that once I find it.



But, it's not impossible for Sasuke. Remember, he has Amaterasu which never stops burning. That can explain why he was saying "burn it down" in that panel. That can be foreshadowing to what may occur after this war.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

The beasts are literally chakra with an animalistic form .-. once they 'die' they reform again. the fire wouldn't affect them anymore.


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## Naiki (Feb 25, 2014)

^ Unless Sasuke gets some new power-up where he can absorb chakra or extract Bijuu's, then I'm certain that Sasuke will be a later threat to Naruto. 

Also, do you have the source that states that about the Bijuu?


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

The only thing I've been able to find on it is 'If you kill the jinchuuriki the fox will die too' and I found that yesterday.
still doing some searching, but even if the jinchuuriki dies, it is still possible for the bijuu to be revived or brought back I believe. I just need to find this damn site .-.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> How is this interesting when Sakura doesn't call Sai-kun and Hinata calls Kiba-kun and Shino-kun, which are her teammates?



It is interesting because like, at the very same chapter, Sai--or rather, Kishimoto--make a mental note directly about *Sakura and Naruto's* relationship.



Mr Horrible said:


> Alright then, let's do this.
> 
> I think when you have the main character's dead mother say he should find a girl like her and when he's liked *said girl* for 600 chapters, then competing pairings are of pretty fucking thin ice.



And then the dead father came back to tell the readers that the said girl reminds him of his mother as if to drive the point home with a damn big hammer... well....

Also, want to chime in about SasuSaku: yes, I have said it before and on this page some were saying the same things: it's pretty much *dead* to me the moment Sasuke tried to kill Sakura *without hesitation*. You expect me to believe a healthy, loving relationship can be formed when a guy once tried to kill the girl without batting an eye and the girl just only recently shown that all she can gave to him is just a fake, painful smile that even a socially-impaired person like Sai can immediately notice?

Anyways, sorry for the off-topic question but: is there any way to see who quoted me other than to browse pages manually....?


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## Tom Servo (Feb 25, 2014)

Holy crap I leave for one day and this place lights up like fucking new year's eve 



Also tailed beasts are immortal now? When the fuck did this happen?


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

It's simply this: You can't kill energy.


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## LesExit (Feb 25, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> No one is saying Naruto would intentionally kill Sasuke either.


ya I've thought about that. If Sasuke does die, I think it would be much better that way. I still don't think he's gonna die though....seems like Naruto will do anything he can to make sure that _doesn't_ happen. I really think the best ending would be both Naruto and Sasuke actively reforming the system together 
but maybe he'll die, I don't know O____________O if he does, it better be a beautiful scene (╥ ◡ ╥)


Tom Servo said:


> Holy crap I leave for one day and this place lights up like fucking new year's eve
> 
> 
> 
> Also tailed beasts are immortal now? When the fuck did this happen?


Wait are they actually not?

Isn't the reason they keep re-sealing the beasts into people because once they "die" they come back again? Has it ever been stated that they can die, or how they can die???

....I don't think getting rid of the bijuu is necessarily a bad thing though >.> ...I think I actually agree with Sasuke. I don't see the whole keep re-sealing bijuu into people continuing. Maybe they'll find a way to free the tailed beasts or something since they're all suddenly nice and stuff XD


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 25, 2014)

Actually, a good thing to do might be to send them to an alternate dimension. Ya know? Like how Obito did with Kakashi? Might actually be interesting. 
Anyway, back on topic.. .-. don't wanna hear shit from the mods :33


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## Tom Servo (Feb 25, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> It's simply this: You can't kill energy.



Except they aren't simply forms of energy we see they have flesh, bones and bleed as well as the ability to die which is why the Kyuubi was actually giving Naruto some chakra in Part 1 during dire situations and why Akatsuki went out of their way to keep the hosts alive.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 25, 2014)

Bijuu cannot be killed permanently. We all know that if the host die, the Bijuu dies and the 4th Raikage attacked KCM with killing intent so as to delay Tobito's plan while Kurama reforms. He of all people would know from his extensive dealing with Gyuki. 
Bijuu are chakra entities. Not to mention they've been around since the Sage's prime days and are still kicking dytpmh, who people think was just a myth.


Sasuke can shoot fire out of his face til the cows come home, Bijuu will still be reborn and come back. Now, let's get back on topic as to why NH is clearly the superior pairing.


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## Kadu (Feb 25, 2014)

Honestly I'd be happy if shit just happened between anyone. None of these are my pairings but I don't care. I'm tired of the cat and mouse bullshit.


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## Kathutet (Feb 26, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Can I just comment on the almost defensive and adamant way "SHE LOVES HIM" is argued now for SS? I think it's just kind of hilarious. It's about the only lifeline going for it and I think everyone knows that, and that is why that particular matter is defended so adamantly. If that changes it's dead, gone, done. There aren't really any redeeming characteristics to it, so that particular fact of Sakura's feelings is latched on like one's life depended on it.



No, you can't. Keep meta discussions and anything targeted at a group or person out of this thread.


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## Naiki (Feb 26, 2014)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> Bijuu cannot be killed permanently. We all know that if the host die, the Bijuu dies and the 4th Raikage attacked KCM with killing intent so as to delay Tobito's plan while Kurama reforms. He of all people would know from his extensive dealing with Gyuki.
> Bijuu are chakra entities. Not to mention they've been around since the Sage's prime days and are still kicking dytpmh, who people think was just a myth.
> 
> 
> Sasuke can shoot fire out of his face til the cows come home, Bijuu will still be reborn and come back. Now, let's get back on topic as to why NH is clearly the superior pairing.



Like I said before, unless Sasuke obtains the ability to extract Bijuu and steal them, then he is possibly a threat to Naruto. Whether or not he can actually perform the task isn't significant, but the motive behind it is significant because it places Sasuke in a sort of anti-protagonist light. This wouldn't spell as good for SS, since Sakura is more than likely going to be behind Naruto.

As for NH being the superior pairing:  That's hilarious considering they have very little mutual development. Naruto is only _just _ beginning to respect her as a fellow shinobi and has YET to even acknowledge her love for him.  Even so, they both don't know jack shit about each other. Especially Hinata, she doesn't even place Naruto's best interests at heart like Sakura does (which is to see him become Hokage).

Hell, she doesn't even consider Naruto's feelings at all. The only thing that matters to her is what she wants to do with him. Not at all how he feels, which obviously isn't the same. Atleast with Sakura, she has shown numerous times that she cares about Naruto's feelings, what he wants,  and has acted selflessly for his sake. 

Hinata has never done any of those things.


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## ch1p (Feb 26, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Let's see, on the one hand we have SS vs NS, which with Lee seemingly out of the picture are the major possible pairings for Sakura. On the other we have NaruKarin vs NS and the first one just hasn't featured pretty much ever. Surely you can see a difference here right? It's not selective reading when the parallel jumps out and bites you on the nose btw, MinaKushi-NS should be considered obvious since Minato's comparison.



Why is Lee out of the picture? He like, sensed Sakura was in the sand cloud even though he can't use chakra for techniques. That's soulmate material right there.



> I guess this is where I argue you're the one engaging in selective reading to get around it.



We're both engaging on it. I'm doing so to prove that this can be done from both sides, and it doesn't amount to anything.



> Continue to focus on the weak arguments rather than the strong ones then.



Like, none of the established NarSak parallelz (MinaKushi has not been compared officially) that you consider strong have been reciprocrated? Lel. Go on them. That will get you far.



> I'm not sure why you're holding out for specific explicit pairing parallels, that has never happened in this story. What Kishi does is parallel characters and you can look at the relationship between them to claim a pairing is paralleled. As I've said numerous times, Naruto parallels both Minato and Kushina (in terms of strict parallels he's been compared to Minato/the fourth Hokage more IIRC). Sakura-Kushina parallels have been floating around ever since her introduction and Minato confirmed this (again, anyone with a brain should have seen it though).



I've already said that parallels exist many times. I am only defending they are irrelevant to predict the pairing endgame. 



> Team Minato(idk its name) has been compared to Team 7 several times by Kakashi. Sasuke=Kakashi, Naruto=Obito and Sakura=Rin (by virtue of being the medic chick), Obito/Naruto both loved Rin/Sakura who loved Kakashi/Sasuke. You say I'm jumping to conclusions when I parallel NS to ObitoRin?



I'm not saying it's not there. I'm saying you're just jumping to conclusions, much like you are doing for MinaKushi. That in this (Team Minato) case you are indeed correct, but that you are not in the case of MinaKushi, which has never been compared at all..

 I have given the examples of Minato being Naruto's father because of 'connections' being correct and yet Pain being either Minato or Naruto's relative because of 'connections' as being correct. Or the whole who Tobi is debacle, which had 'connections' to really odd people.

Humans are disposed into seeing patterns into everything, but do they mean anything? That is a matter of debate. To which is why I'm saying that most, if not all, parallel conversation is useless.



> Dan // Naruto was done by Tsunade, idk why you're fighting that so hard.



Tsunade did the parallel for herself, but when Sakura was included we had Sasuke also included. You're the one fighting this for god knows what reason. You've told me you don't consider the Naruto // Dan parallel to be important for NarSak and I've said repeatedly that even if Sasuke // Dan was paralleled, it didn't mean anything for SS.



> Sakura // Konan I've also explained my reasoning for (namely I think Kishi is sexist here and they parallel because they are both female).



This is your own interpretation. Furthermore, you contradict yourself with the personality thing when you defend Naruto // Dan as valid, so it's not just because of sexism. You're delierately turning a blind eye to that case.

My argument is that the parallelz are only there for roles in the story, nothing more.



> I fit the comparisons how I view the story means them to fit.



Like I said, there are plenty of ways people can interpret things.



> I'm biased against dreams that involve the romantic subplot in a shounen, especially when the main character is involved and not the focus. This has nothing to do with whether I like SS or not, it was a "wait and see" for me from day 1.



You complain that I'm the one with dreams that involve a romantic subplot, but you're the one who supposedly defends the pairing with connections and parallels and so called development. That would be romantic subplot, so how can you diss the idea like that?

SS is 'wait and see'? You told me to 'wait and see' and 'the scene is not over' for the current events when I pointed out if Sakura had to have this sudden realisation for her feelings for Naruto, that time has already come and went. You're dissing your own situation.



> I read what is on the panels, Tsunade said she was going to give Jiraiya a chance, what the fuck do you think that meant?



She did not say she was going to give him a chance. She said that he didn't need to put a tough front for her anymore.



> Ah, this is where I pull the author intent card. There's no way in hell Kishi drew that hug without realising what fans would think (platonic or not), as such is does fit as NS occuring in that time interval.



Kishi trolls can be used for every single pairing.



> This is a story, it was shown after the Pain arc, stop being obtuse.



I'm saying that NarSak hasn't had a single positive 'serious business' moment since before the pain arc, that it has been either negative, comic relief, or irrelevant (Sakura's mindset in the past few chapters isn't different from the Chunin Exam arc or the end of part 1. This is not being obtuse. This is pointing out how Kishimoto has gone with the storyline regarding NS.



> /shrug, it was development nonetheless.



It was still negative and that's the point. You are keen on pointing out Sakura's negative views on Sasuke are supposedly telling of her eventually moving away from him, after all.



> I wasn't talking about how Sakura got in that situation, but how she was rescued .
> [sp][/sp]



That's called selective reading. Whether Naruto saved Sakura in a similar panel or not is quite irrelevant, when it didn't come with her changing her feelings from 'he's annoying' to 'i love him' like Kushiha. People can make odd connections between panels about everything.



> That rut was much shorter than you're claiming, I also think that a 'sudden realisation' has to have build up (read: development) as well.



Naruto only attempting to woo Sakura in a light hearted manner and shown as hopeless to pursue her in a serious manner can also fit into that.



> He can read Hinata's eyes because she never changes .



That's false and unfair. Hinata used to hide behind walls and stutter while speaking with him. Furthermore, Naruto questioned her motives in the Pain arc, but in the war arc he could read them in her eyes.



> Are you trying to claim Sakura treats Naruto like a son?



Not at all. However, that's what *you* sound like when you insist with this 'she hits him' = kushina. Sakura hits him because he's a dumbass, just like he hits Konohamaru and Sai. Kushina hits him because he's a dumbass, just like he hit her school bullies. Kushina and Naruto have a familiar bond when she hits him.



> Now _that's_ selective reading.



Percisely, because that's the exact same you're doing here.



> So both of them were compared to Dan right? In which case the DanTsu=SS thing falls on its face.



They were compared to Dan in different situations and different contexts.



> Because Sasuke wanting to be Hokage is a very new thing and there's shit going on under the surface there. Are you really trying to say that Sasuke's current determination to be Hokage is equal to Naruto's?



It's true Sasuke0s feelings about the hokage seat are new and skewed, but that doesn't mean his determination is any less. Sasuke has never shown any kind of lack of determination to pursue his goals.



> Dude didn't try to kill Tsunade/her team mates/the rest of Konoha several times either.



Nor does he have a shit eating grin like Naruto, nor are his reasons to be Hokage to be acknowledged like Naruto's, yet he was compared to him.



> "In part 1".



That's funny, because you just said she's the exact same always. However, my point still stands. Hinata having changed is not excuse, because Sakura wasn't like Kushina in her childhood either, yet that doesn't stop you from comparing.



> Because Naruto is similar to Minato (see; every powerup Naruto has had since SM).



Then he can fit the MinaKushi parallel all by himself, he doesn't need Sakura. MinaKushi = Naruto Forever Alone.



> Not only that but it was Sakura's interaction with Naruto that reminded Minato of Kushina.



You say this because you think so, but I disagree  After all, Minato was never shown to be the recepient of his wife's violent tantrums. He doesn't fit anywhere.



> She doesn't trust him, she thinks of him standing in flames and shit, she's currently crying over Naruto's half dead body, do I have to go on for why I view a 'sudden realisation' sometime on Sakura's part as likely?



But it's not at all. Sakura has already gone through this faith test thing and still loved him. Sakura has already gone through this 'omg i'm going to lose naruto' and she still didn't love him (a few chapters ago).



> I wouldn't view Sasuke trying to kill the Kyuubi (and therefore sacrifice Naruto) for his ideal of peace as unlikely, in fact I think it's the most probable route at the moment. Finally I'd let Sakura's viewpoint play out right now because it is not the same as it was previously.



I don't care either way. Why would Sakura take this more badly than she did before when Sasuke personally attacked her and promised to kill Naruto right in front of her? Like I said, we've already gone through either worse situations or the exact same situations.



> His parents were plotting a coup against Konoha, Naruto is pretty much blameless of anything.



How does that counter my point? Sasuke is going to be forgiven, just like everyone before him.


----------



## ch1p (Feb 26, 2014)

> And again; something has to give somewhere. When there's finally movement on Sakura's part as well as SS's history, what do you want me to say?



Why this time it will be different, when we've already been through worse or similar situations already.



> I'm not even sure you have a point here, the story had different tones for those two events.



That you have no issues complaining that Kakashi thought of Sakura's goals negatively, yet you dismiss that he also thought of Naruto and Sasuke's goals negatively (and that doesn't many people doubt them), and that Sakura herself thought about the compliment negatively.



> I think when you have the main character's dead mother say he should find a girl like her and when he's liked said girl for 600 chapters, then competing pairings are of pretty fucking thin ice.



Kushina's words are a throwaway line, which are never mentioned again (hillariously, Naruto spoke of the baths and vegetables). In 600 chapters of opposite 'trolling' (according to you, and with a rival pairing have a volume cover.



> Naruto/Sakura does get played for comic relief often, but there's also serious undertones in there. As you said yourself, the recent girlfriend comment was comic relief but it simply wouldn't make sense unless Naruto still liked Sakura (and didn't feel that way about Hinata).



There is no problem in NS being comic relief at points. The problem is that Naruto doesn't have a serious business outlook to it unless it's to admit defeat towards SasuSaku.



> Then pretty much everything concerning the PoaL is straight up drama for Naruto/Sakura, as well as any time Naruto rescues Sakura or Sakura heals Naruto.



The PoaLT involves Sasuke. Naruto rescuing Sakura, VS Gaara he did it because of Sasuke's speech and in Iron Country he did it because Sasuke was being a complete dick. Do you see all this Sasuke?

The only thing you have that doesn't include him is the fate of the tailed beasts and her healing Naruto right now, which is in tandem with the goals Sakura set for herself in the end of part 1 and where she was not in love with Naruto.



> Acknowledging =! backing off, your statement there simply isn't backed up when there are solutions explicitly confirmed by canon (Naruto backing off because of low self esteem~).



When he leaves at the Hospital with a smile, he's backing off. When he does the PoaLT, he's backing off. When he says that he can't even keep his promises, he's shown as hopeless. Why isn't this important, when you have no issues whatsoever in saying Sakura having no faith in Sasuke would be the reason why she gives in? She also had no faith in him in part 1 and that changed nothing. The fact is, Naruto has backed off, at least in two instances. If you tell me 'it changed nothing' ...



> So then why does Sakura still have a big issue with Sasuke?



Because he's still being a twatty bitch. 



> Parallels are not about validation, they're about likelihood. As far as validation goes you need to look at personalities and relationships and I don't really care to do that here (although you're free to look at the NS fc to see why people like the pairing).



Likelihood of what if JirTsu and ObiRin are both unrequited and MinaKushi has never been confirmed.



> *Naruto showed he's serious to Sai.*
> *Nothing changes.*
> *Naruto's feelings again confirmed in the girlfriend comment.*
> 
> But sure, let's assume Naruto's feelings have changed from serious to light because of reasons.



*Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the end of part 1.
*Nothing changes.*
*Sakura's feelings confirmed in beginning of part 2, during reunion*
*Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the reunion or just after it.
*Nothing changes.*
*Sakura's feelings confirmed during the Kakuzu arc*
*Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the Iron arc.
*Nothing changes.*
*Sakura's feelings confirmed in 540.*

Do I need to paraphrase the rest or...?



> Naruto hasn't seriously pursued Sakura for most of part 2, IIRC he did ask her on a date at the beginning. As I said previously though, we know why this is and it's not because Sakura loves Sasuke.



It's always because of Sasuke in someway. He's the third wheel.



> It's a fun argument though isn't it? I must point out that you do seem to be using my arguments quite a bit though.



I was being flippant. I actually think it will not be VotE because it's weak after they take care of the big villain, which has threatened the whole planet's existance. A fight between a seat in a village is very small in comparison.



> However Naruto has been going to redeem Sasuke for 400~ chapters now, if he's redeemed beforehand then it'd be a pretty huge anti-climax.



I don't doubt Naruto will make him accept bonds and whatever else. That's not redeeming him though, at least not totally which was my point. Sasuke redeemed because of Itachi. If Itachi had never told him the things that he did, Naruto could have never stood a chance of reaching him.



> No one is saying Naruto would intentionally kill Sasuke either.


...

That would shit on the PoaLT and Naruto's words to Sai, which you take in high regard.



MichaelInsanity said:


> The beasts are literally chakra with an animalistic form .-. once they 'die' they reform again. the fire wouldn't affect them anymore.



This, anything else is bad fanfic. The So6P had to get rid of the 10 tails by dividing into 9 beasts, not make him disappear with a technique that surelly outclasses Amaterasu since he's the most powerful being in existance. He will not be surpassed by Sasuke.



MichaelInsanity said:


> The only thing I've been able to find on it is 'If you kill the jinchuuriki the fox will die too' and I found that yesterday.
> still doing some searching, but even if the jinchuuriki dies, it is still possible for the bijuu to be revived or brought back I believe. I just need to find this damn site .-.



Rin is poster girl for this. She had the three tails sealed inside of her, it died with her, and then reformed years later elsewhere.



pizza_blade said:


> It is interesting because like, at the very same chapter, Sai--or rather, Kishimoto--make a mental note directly about *Sakura and Naruto's* relationship.



There were no hints that Sakura didn't use honorifics because she loves Naruto, so this is irrelevant.



> And then the dead father came back to tell the readers that the said girl reminds him of his mother as if to drive the point home with a damn big hammer... well....



Karin is also like Kushina. Point?



> Also, want to chime in about SasuSaku: yes, I have said it before and on this page some were saying the same things: it's pretty much *dead* to me the moment Sasuke tried to kill Sakura *without hesitation*. You expect me to believe a healthy, loving relationship can be formed when a guy once tried to kill the girl without batting an eye and the girl just only recently shown that all she can gave to him is just a fake, painful smile that even a socially-impaired person like Sai can immediately notice?
> 
> You're free to believe whatever you feel like, but that's not an argument.
> 
> If Sasuke is redeemed, then he will be so completely, murder attempts and all. Sakura will not bear resentment, because that makes no sense. Regarding the trust issue, we've already gone through it, and nothing changed.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 26, 2014)

Kenneth said:


> No, you can't. Keep meta discussions and anything targeted at a group or person out of this thread.



Well. It was clearly targeted toward a pairing.


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## Kathutet (Feb 26, 2014)

It clearly wasn't entirely about the pairings themselves. Think I'll quote it again, but only the part I was talking about.



> Can I just comment on the almost defensive and adamant way "SHE LOVES HIM" is argued now for SS? I think it's just kind of hilarious.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 26, 2014)

Kenneth said:


> It clearly wasn't entirely about the pairings themselves. Think I'll quote it again, but only the part I was talking about.



Well that is clearly leading to the main idea of my post. Not to mention that specifically deals with a characteristic of the pairing, and how it is presented to emphasize it. It is still pretty much pairing-centric.


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## Kathutet (Feb 26, 2014)

It is. Just not the part I quoted just now. Don't make me quote it again and leave meta discussions out of this as I said several posts ago. You're not stupid and you've been here since before I even made an account, you should know why this is a thing at this point.

Can we end this now, please?


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## Kakugo (Feb 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> There were no hints that Sakura didn't use honorifics because she loves Naruto, so this is irrelevant.



It's relevant because it demonstrates how closely knit their relationship is as opposed to others.


*Spoiler*: __ 











No other pairing shares this suggested level of "closeness" that NaruSaku has, not even remotely. If this really were "irrelevant", then why did Kishi go the extra mile to emphasize on it's importance? Surely not to remind us of a "friendship" that we already knew existed.


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## Kurama (Feb 26, 2014)

He honorifics argument is a waste of time, since Naruto doesn't use honorifics with Hinata, nor does Sasuke bother with them at all. Sakura neglected to use honorifics with Naruto when she despised him, so her still not using them isn't distinctive of anything. Sakura and Hinata use the "kun" honorific with their objects of affection [Hinata uses it towards all her male peers due to her noble upbringing], they'd only DROP them once in a committed relationship with them. We know Sakura and Naruto are close friends, but you can't use honorifics to attempt to imply Sakura has feelings other than friendship when she proves that to not be the case.


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## Naiki (Feb 26, 2014)

I also want to point out that Lee refers to Naruto as "Naruto-kun" so using the argument that Sakura still calling Sasuke "Sasuke-kun" indicates that she still has romantic feelings for him is a complete and utter lie. Hell, even Hinata refers to Kiba and Shino as "Shino-kun" and "Kiba-kun". 

@ Kurama: You don't have any evidence that proves that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are anything other than ambiguous. I, on the other hand, do.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You're free to believe whatever you feel like, but that's not an argument.
> 
> If Sasuke is redeemed, then he will be so completely, murder attempts and all. Sakura will not bear resentment, because that makes no sense. Regarding the trust issue, we've already gone through it, and nothing changed.



Who gets to decide that it was not an argument? *You*?

Sometimes people need to remember that the one creating Naruto, Kishimoto, is a *real* person, with *real life* values that, holy shit, may use *real life logic* when dealing with these kinds of things. 

I have yet to see this magical creature of a human being that can be in a loving relationship that goes both ways with a person trying to kill him/her so nonchalantly, not even in fiction. 

"Regarding the trust issue, we've already gone through it, and nothing changed"

I don't remember Kishi resolved that whole Sai asking to Sakura about her fake smile thing. Can you point me to the page in the manga where it has been solved: give a manga panel that clearly indicates Sakura already put all those things behind---as you say, 'nothing changed'---and that she trusted Sasuke 100% implicitly.


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## Kurama (Feb 26, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I also want to point out that Lee refers to Naruto as "Naruto-kun" so using the argument that Sakura still calling Sasuke "Sasuke-kun" indicates that she still has romantic feelings for him is a complete and utter lie. Hell, even Hinata refers to Kiba and Shino as "Shino-kun" and "Kiba-kun".



Did you not read the part when I said the honorifics argument is pointless? We don't need the -kun to prove she still loves Sasuke, we have 540 for that. Absolutely nothing has happened to change that.




> @ Kurama: You don't have any evidence that proves that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are anything other than ambiguous. I, on the other hand, do.


Sakura: There's some_one_ else. *does not think of Naruto*
*thinks Naruto is affirming she's his girlfriend* *headbutts him*

No, you have nothing to prove ambiguous feelings from Sakura, because its been blatantly laid out that she never considered him romantically, took his "love" as a burden, then lied in attempt to relieve herself of the guilt perceived through him making the PoaL. You want to sit here and swear Sakura's feelings are ambiguous just because she shows him concern, but turn around and insist Naruto CANNOT be in process of growing interest in Hinata despite their progressive interaction in this arc alone that repeatedly references her affections with him holding her in high regard with none of the negative reception that plagued NaruSaku...just because of what's amounted to a set up for a punchline in 631 where unlike the open reference in 540, the question in directed towards Sakura specifically, not involving Hinata. You have to prove Naruto actually still has intent to pursue Sakura, 631 doesn't cut it at all, and right now he's unconscious not playing a role in any pairing development.


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## Benhazard (Feb 26, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I also want to point out that Lee refers to Naruto as "Naruto-kun" so using the argument that Sakura still calling Sasuke "Sasuke-kun" indicates that she still has romantic feelings for him is a complete and utter lie. Hell, even Hinata refers to Kiba and Shino as "Shino-kun" and "Kiba-kun".
> 
> @ Kurama: You don't have any evidence that proves that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are anything other than ambiguous. I, on the other hand, do.



The whole honoric argument it's terrible and pointless, if anything, anyone could talk how much sakura and Ino has a secret sex and hot yuri relationship that they are not even aware based on it, or even worse if going over it. =/


now, for the sake of curiosity, if these parallels doesn't save, and others ships happen instead, why "The Parallels" would be agaisnt it, if would be agaisn't the history themes, and other stuff, like, being agaisn't what was estabilished by canon, Lol?


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## Naiki (Feb 26, 2014)

Kurama said:


> Did you not read the part when I said the honorifics argument is pointless? We don't need the -kun to prove she still loves Sasuke, we have 540 for that. Absolutely nothing has happened to change that.



That part wasn't directed at you.





> *Sakura: There's someone else. *does not think of Naruto*
> *thinks Naruto is affirming she's his girlfriend* *headbutts him**
> 
> No, you have nothing to prove ambiguous feelings from Sakura, because its been blatantly laid out that she never considered him romantically, took his "love" as a burden, then lied in attempt to relieve herself of the guilt perceived through him making the PoaL. You want to sit here and swear Sakura's feelings are ambiguous just because she shows him concern, but turn around and insist Naruto CANNOT be in process of growing interest in Hinata despite their progressive interaction in this arc alone that repeatedly references her affections with him holding her in high regard with none of the negative reception that plagued NaruSaku...just because of what's amounted to a set up for a punchline in 631 where unlike the open reference in 540, the question in directed towards Sakura specifically, not involving Hinata. You have to prove Naruto actually still has intent to pursue Sakura, 631 doesn't cut it at all, and right now he's unconscious not playing a role in any pairing development.



Sakura: does not think of Naruto, because obviously, her feelings for him are not clarified as of yet. We don't know if what she feels for Naruto is either platonic or romantic. You obviously missed the post that I made a few pages back about this, and it's frustrating to have to cover the same argument again but whatever.

As far as her headbutting him, how exactly does that mean that she doesn't see him in a romantic light? I have read anime where Tsundere do the same all of the time. Her reacting violently is a typical Tsundere act, nothing more. 

She certainly didn't deny that she wasn't his girlfriend either. Whether she headbutts him or not is irrelevant because that is typical behavior for a Tsundere, 

Now, here is the post that I posted for ch1p regarding why I think Sakura's feelings are ambiguous as well as the manga panels to back it up.

Sakura's feelings can be looked at from an ambiguous point of view. The fact of the matter is that Sakura's feelings are up in the air and I don't think she understands them herself. 

 You mistakenly misconstrue is that the progressive development between Naruto and Hinata as some type of romantic development, when that's clearly not it. Hinata's goal is to earn her way next to Naruto's side, not romantically I would assume since it's *never* been HInata's goal to be Naruto's girlfriend, but rather for him to acknowledge her strength. It has always been Hinata's dream to catch up to Naruto, whatever that might be, and to earn his respect. Naruto has just learned to respect Hinata as someone strong, not someone who gives up easy e.g. a weak person. Naruto's recently developed respect for Hinata is not romantic development, Kurama.

Naruto going from thinking that she is some type of spineless crybaby to falling in love with her depletes the meaning behind her development. Hinata's development consists of Naruto respecting her as a person as well as catching up to him. If Naruto never gains respect for her (platonic), but instead falls in love with her, what would be the point of her character development all of this time?

As of right now, it wouldn't fit for Naruto to fall for Hinata because that's not the purpose of what her character or her development is for. 

{x} Her goal is to move forward and get stronger. She wants to be by his side in strength, which explains why she always draws inspiration from him. That is why she was able to go all the way with the Hakke 64 Fists in that panel. That is the point of her development. It is for her to receive the recognition and respect from Naruto that she always strives to receive, not for Naruto to fall in love with her. 

That's the end of it. 

As for the lack of ambiguous evidence  that you claim that I don't have, how do you explain this which happened at the beginning of part II then:

look here She was clearly admiring his matured appearance as well as his growth in strength. I don't know about you but this rings as more than platonic to me.

  When Sai points out Sakura's gentle nature towards Naruto, she looks at him with blatant incomprehension. This backs up my point of Sakura not understanding the magnitude of her feelings for Naruto. 

look here It's this panel that prompts the startled, self-awakening expression from Sakura which continues into this:
look here It was then where Yamato continues to draw the conclusion that Sakura must really... where Sakura appears to be even more alert with all ears. This, again, backs up the notion that she doesn't understand her feelings for Naruto and what she really needs is clarity from somewhere e.g. an outside source.

look here Not to mention here where Sakura is being a bit coquettish with her approach to feeding Naruto. 

 Then, there is this hug that can easily be interpreted as more than platonic. Not only can it also be interpreted as romantically inclined, but also as relief-driving and appreciative. 

 And it is in this confession where she lists highly accurate reasons as to why she loves him. This, more than anything, she bring genuine light to the nature of her feelings. In the next panel after this one, shes on to tell him that he makes her feel safe and that he is close to her, which again, is accurate information and brings a new perspective to the nature of her feelings.

 And then, it was here where she vehemently defends herself. If she were lying about how she feels about Naruto, why would she defend herself with such fervor? Maybe because she was really telling the truth about how she feels for him?

And then, of course, there were the numerous instances where Sakura has only expressed concern for Naruto over Sasuke throughout the war. This, in itself, explains who she feels strongly for. Even if Sakura still loves Sasuke, it is clear that her ambiguous feelings for Naruto are stronger. 

We only have her word for what she feels for Naruto and that is she loves him. But, what we do know is that her love for Sasuke is on thin ice right about now.

The argument that Sakura views Naruto's love as a burden is highly misinterpreted. If anything, it suggests that Sakura believes that she isn't worthy to be loved by Naruto. {x} She is clearly disturbed and heartbroken that she was the one that caused Naruto the most pain and she calls him a fool for loving someone like her. Does that seem like someone that feels burdened? If anything, she feels obligated to do so because

1) She cares for Naruto
2) She realizes that Naruto made the PoaL out of his love for her and it broke her heart to know that he was in pain because of her selfish desire to bring Sasuke back. 

Sakura takes it upon herself to correct her mistakes and it's not out of guilt, but out of care and her feelings for Naruto. You make it seem as if Sakura is some selfish chick that doesn't care about the feelings of others. In fact, Sakura has shown that she deeply cares about how Naruto feels and she has acted selflessly for his sake numerous times. The confession is one of them. 

It wasn't out of guilt that Sakura declared her love for Naruto, and it was out of selflessness that Sakura decided to free Naruto from his promise because she didn't want to see him in pain anymore because of her love for Sasuke. Guilt did not play a role in this. Selflessness did. 

Lastly, chapter 631. If you only view that incident as a punchline, that's up to you. Whatever grinds your gears. The only thing significant in that entire exchange was that Naruto confirmed that he still views Sakura in a romantic light and that Sakura's reaction reminded Minato of his wife. This in itself should let you know that reacting with violence is a normal thing for a Tsundere to do in those types of predicaments. 

Reading between the lines is the key here. But, honestly, there is no reading between the lines. It's right in your face. 

The next time, make sure you back up your arguments with manga panels. 
 Goodbye now.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 26, 2014)

Mkay so what I'm getting from this is simply this:
We aren't going anywhere in this argument. Kurama has a point, though calling you a hypocrite may have not been the best way to go about it, he does have a huge point.
The difference between a tsundere punching the person they are secretly in love with and Sakura head butting Naruto is simply this


Versus this


That's not a look of embarrassment or hiding feelings of love, that's a look of disgust, and to ignore that is asspull at best. 

*I'm saying this nicely: We don't get anywhere in this debate by ignoring what is and what isn't.*

The handhold can and may be interpreted as platonic, but that is a future debate, as handholding is subjective to the one who initiates it. We'll find out about that soon enough.

As for no development, I think this needs to be REVAMPED again: SCREEN TIME/PANEL SPACE DOES NOT EQUAL ROMANTIC DEVELOPMENT.

I can't stress that enough. There are plenty of manga, particularly shonen manga, couples who spring up out of the blue with not much panel time, but just enough development to make them credible. No one has to like it, but it's a _fact_ that we cannot ignore. 

That being said, sitting here and saying "Nope nope nope nope nope, def. romantic" or "nope nope nope nope nope your pairing has no development" is a fucking tragically mundane bout of stupidity that needs to stop. We know NOTHING until the end of the manga, so how about stop putting the opinions of eachother on a shit list, and start realizing that Kishi may very well fuck over one of us if not ALL of us if Naruto or Sasuke dies. 

We don't have to LIKE each others "evidence" . We just have to accept it. That's not THAT hard is it? After all, no one is correct until the end.

Back on topic, yes Naiki, the beginning of shippuden, she was flirting with him, that much is clear.
What else is clear is that she was testing to see if he changed, which he did not. 
That was an immediate turn off to her and her "feelings' towards him stayed as a friend from that point on. Nothing more. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



We can all sit here and say "nothing more" but that doesn't mean it's correct by the way.




As for her defending herself against Naruto calling her a liar, uhhh that's called being defensive.
People get defensive when they feel they are caught. Such as someone pulled over by the police. They start to get snappy, angry and emotional, hiding the true intentions when it's actually spelled all over their face.
This is the same situation. She was lying to stop the burden. It's not something you need to dig deep to find.

As for Sai saying "Naruto loves you" but then ignoring when he tells Naruto what her true intentions really were, THAT Naiki, is what was hypocritical. Unintentionally maybe, but still all the same. It was already said that she had lied. There were no feelings there. She had a hidden intention, that's why Naruto questioned her. 
He knew something was up. If she really felt that way, she probably would have let the feelings develop further until she was sure, not seek him out when he was on an important mission. 
It made no sense. He knew it didn't and it was CONFIRMED that she was not being honest. Her intentions were to stop Naruto from searching for Sasuke so she could kill him without feeling guilty that Naruto was trying to save sasuke FOR HER. 
Her flaw was simple: She thought he was doing it for her.
Her solution? She thought lying to him to make him feel like Sasuke wasn't important would solve the problem, so she wouldn't feel guilty and so Naruto would not have a burden to bear.

There. That's all. It's really not that difficult.


Edit: This does NOT make her selfish by the way, just ignorant to his feelings, as he was to hers.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 26, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> *I'm saying this nicely: We don't get anywhere in this debate by ignoring what is and what isn't.*
> 
> The handhold can and may be interpreted as platonic, but that is a future debate, as handholding is subjective to the one who initiates it. We'll find out about that soon enough.
> 
> ...



That's a rather long way to say, "guys, what we are doing here is pointless, this topic is pointless, this thread is pointless, let's just stop having this pointless conversations and just wait the end of the manga."

Well, I suppose it is sort of fair to say that you're not entirely wrong at that.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 26, 2014)

Hahahaha well yea you're probably right. But to be honest it really is just debating what we THINK is going to happen, based on what has already happened. It's really just theoretical at best.


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## Naiki (Feb 26, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Mkay so what I'm getting from this is simply this:
> We aren't going anywhere in this argument. Kurama has a point, though calling you a hypocrite may have not been the best way to go about it, he does have a huge point.
> The difference between a tsundere punching the person they are secretly in love with and Sakura head butting Naruto is simply this
> 
> ...



How do you know that it was the idea of being Naruto's girlfriend that 'disgusted' Sakura? In fact, I don't even see a hint on her face that reads as disgusted, but okay. In fact, she looks more angry than anything. Perhaps it could've been that Naruto was lying about the status of their relationship? That could very well explain what she says as she is headbutting him which is: "Shut up and concentrate on your wounds" (?) at least that's what I think it is. It's like she's pissed that's he's wasting his energy on telling lies about their relationship, rather than concentrating on getting better.

Something a typical Tsundere would do, really. 

if anything, her reaction suggests that she's pissed that he's lying about their status in relationship when he should have been concentrating on getting better. The same incident happened in part I, but that time she punched him and said "wrong!" which also indicates that she was pissed that he was buying into a lie about their relationship.



> *I'm saying this nicely: We don't get anywhere in this debate by ignoring what is and what isn't.*
> 
> The handhold can and may be interpreted as platonic, but that is a future debate, as handholding is subjective to the one who initiates it. We'll find out about that soon enough.



Well, speak for yourself. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people on this thread that won't even open their mind up to other possiblities despite having clear and logical proof presented right in front of them. I'm not giving any names though. 

Exactly, and Naruto initiated the hand-hold in a platonic manner. That moment wasn't just about him and Hinata. It was about everyone he considers a comrade and the people who died and are willing to die for him. 

Those were the people he thought of when he grabbed her hand, right?



> As for no development, I think this needs to be REVAMPED again: SCREEN TIME/PANEL SPACE DOES NOT EQUAL ROMANTIC DEVELOPMENT.
> 
> I can't stress that enough. There are plenty of manga, particularly shonen manga, couples who spring up out of the blue with not much panel time, but just enough development to make them credible. No one has to like it, but it's a _fact_ that we cannot ignore.
> 
> That being said, sitting here and saying "Nope nope nope nope nope, def. romantic" or "nope nope nope nope nope your pairing has no development" is a fucking tragically mundane bout of stupidity that needs to stop. We know NOTHING until the end of the manga, so how about stop putting the opinions of eachother on a shit list, and start realizing that Kishi may very well fuck over one of us if not ALL of us if Naruto or Sasuke dies.



First of all, no one is arguing that all of NarSak's screen time was romantic development because it's not. And no one is arguing that NarHin doesn't have development, although it dims in comparison to NarSak. Some of NarSak's development can be interpreted as romantic development and some of it can be interpreted as platonic development. 

The only difference with NarHin is that none of the interactions between them can truly be interpreted as mutual romantic development. Naruto has never been shown to be physically attracted to Hinata, like how Sakura was admiring Naruto's matured appearance in the beginning of part II. Naruto has never acted selflessly on Hinata's behalf. 

Hell, Naruto hasn't even been around Hinata often enough for us to know what he would do for Hinata. On top of that, there was absolutely no screen time for the two of them to get to know each other better. That is why I think NarSak has a better chance because they both know each other pretty well and that is where development and screen time counts. 

Naruto had romantic feelings for Sakura since the very beginning and I'm going to assume even when he barely knew her. As he grew to know her, his love for her grew as well. But, with Hinata, he knows that she has a good heart and how she strives to be stronger, but that still wasn't enough for Naruto to even look her way in that aspect.



> We don't have to LIKE each others "evidence" . We just have to accept it. That's not THAT hard is it? After all, no one is correct until the end.



Again, speak for yourselves. I have provided evidence and posted manga panels until my fingers turned blue, no one was ever willing to consider it or be open-minded enough to consider the possibilities of what I was posting. 

On another note, no one has really posted evidence here except me. Just typing stuff isn't evidence. You have to have the manga panels to back it up so that people will understand where you get that logic from.

Words are just that: words. 



> Back on topic, yes Naiki, the beginning of shippuden, she was flirting with him, that much is clear.
> What else is clear is that she was testing to see if he changed, which he did not.
> That was an immediate turn off to her and her "feelings' towards him stayed as a friend from that point on. Nothing more.



She wasn't testing to see if he changed. She automatically assumed that he had matured based off of his personality as well as his matured appearance, which placed a blush on her face. 

, and this notion that he has matured appearance-wise as well as his presumably matured personality made Sakura believe that he became this amazing person, and it placed a blush on her face. 

Because of this, she automatically assumed that he came back with some awesome jutsu as well. There was no test on her part. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What motive would Sakura have gained by telling Naruto that she loved him? That's right, nothing. Sai clearly stated that Sakura came there to relieve Naruto of his burden by telling him that she had given up on Sasuke, not that she was in love with him. Sakura telling Naruto that she was in love with him was not part of her plan. 

She got emotional and upset because Naruto denied her feelings, simple as that. What she was lying about was that she didn't love Sasuke anymore and that she had given up on him. <--- That was the lie and part of her plan to release Naruto of the burden. 



> As for Sai saying "Naruto loves you" but then *ignoring when he tells Naruto what her true intentions really were, THAT Naiki, is what was hypocritical.* Unintentionally maybe, but still all the same. *It was already said that she had lied. There were no feelings there. She had a hidden intention, that's why Naruto questioned her. *



Sai never brought up Sakura's 'love' for Naruto as a lie. You're, again, mistakenly assuming that just because Sakura was lying about her love for Sasuke and telling Naruto that she was giving up on him that it also includes the 'love' that she declared for Naruto herself. Sai even stated that Sakura didn't come there to confess her love for him, so how exactly was that a part of the plan? 

According to Sai, her plan was to come there and tell Naruto that she wasn't in love with Sasuke anymore and that she had given up on him. She didn't come there to confess her love, which wasn't a part of her plan to release Naruto from the burden.

So, again, how exactly is that hypocritical when I'm not arguing that she was telling the truth about not loving Sasuke anymore or about giving up on him? What I am arguing is that I think Sakura has some merits to what she was saying about her 'love' for Naruto. 

That's all. Also, here is the panel where Sai says that Sakura didn't come to confess her love, which was obviously not a part of her plan.


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## Naiki (Feb 26, 2014)

> He knew something was up. If she really felt that way, she probably would have let the feelings develop further until she was sure, not seek him out when he was on an important mission.
> It made no sense. He knew it didn't and it was CONFIRMED that she was not being honest. Her intentions were to stop Naruto from searching for Sasuke so she could kill him without feeling guilty that Naruto was trying to save sasuke FOR HER.
> Her flaw was simple: She thought he was doing it for her.
> Her solution? She thought lying to him to make him feel like Sasuke wasn't important would solve the problem, so she wouldn't feel guilty and so Naruto would not have a burden to bear.



Naruto was suspicious that Sakura was hiding something, which she really was. Also, who exactly confirmed that she was lying about her love for Naruto? Was it Naruto? Would you really take the word of someone who has always thought of Sakura as unattainable. Naruto has always thought the Sakura would never love him and always loved Sasuke, so of course he wouldn't welcome it so warmly.

Sai certainly didn't confirm her love for Naruto as a lie either. Her intentions were to tell Naruto that she had given up on Sasuke and that she didn't love him anymore so that she could lessen his burden. This way, Naruto would stop searching for Sasuke and she could carry on with her mission. 

Also, where are you getting the notion that it is guilt that is the driving factor behind Sakura's actions? It's selflessness. It wasn't because she was feeling guilty, but more around the fact that she put Naruto through so much pain and she is trying to correct her mistakes because she genuinely cares for Naruto. Sai even states that she was thinking of his feelings. 

And, yes, Sakura is lead to believe that Naruto did the PoaL because of her love for Sasuke 
and his understanding of her. That is true. The thing with that is that in discovery of this, Sakura also finds out that Naruto loves her and it makes her feel even worse that she placed such a selfish burden on Naruto, where he would selflessly shoulder a burden for her where he was striving to make her happy because of her love for someone else. 

It broke her heart to know that Naruto was suffering because of her love for Sasuke, which prompted her to lessen the burden by telling Naruto that she no longer loved Sasuke. She was doing all of it for Naruto's sake, not out of guilt. It's because she cares about Naruto and she genuinely cares about his feelings.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Why is Lee out of the picture? He like, sensed Sakura was in the sand cloud even though he can't use chakra for techniques. That's soulmate material right there.



.



> We're both engaging on it. I'm doing so to prove that this can be done from both sides, and it doesn't amount to anything.



You're trying to set up a situation where the only way I can disprove your argument is to discount parallels all together. The problem is that your parallels simply aren't strong enough to force me to do that.



> Like, none of the established NarSak parallelz (MinaKushi has not been compared officially) that you consider strong have been reciprocrated? Lel. Go on them. That will get you far.



Again, no one reasonable will fight the NaruSaku // MinaKushi now since Minato's comparison.



> Tsunade did the parallel for herself, but when Sakura was included we had Sasuke also included. You're the one fighting this for god knows what reason. You've told me you don't consider the Naruto // Dan parallel to be important for NarSak and I've said repeatedly that even if Sasuke // Dan was paralleled, it didn't mean anything for SS.



No, you're saying the Sasuke // Dan argument is valid to counter my parallels except every time I bring up faults with it you fall behind the defense of not caring about parallels in the first place. You have to choose one or the other here, can't have it both ways.

I discredit SS=DanTsu because;

Naruto (a rival for Sakura's heart) has already been compared to Dan.
Sasuke/Naruto being compared to Dan/Nawaki is more about having two special people to protect rather than their specific relationships.
Sasuke has never been individually compared to Dan, unlike Naruto.



> This is your own interpretation. Furthermore, you contradict yourself with the personality thing when you defend Naruto // Dan as valid, so it's not just because of sexism. You're delierately turning a blind eye to that case.



I found another quote that supports Naruto // Dan;
[sp][/sp]



> My argument is that the parallelz are only there for roles in the story, nothing more.



Ok then, however personalities do set up their roles. For instance Obito has vastly different story roles to Naruto, however they have been paralleled from the start due to the very similar personalities. 



> You complain that I'm the one with dreams that involve a romantic subplot, but you're the one who supposedly defends the pairing with connections and parallels and so called development. That would be romantic subplot, so how can you diss the idea like that?



I'm 'dissing' Sakura's goal in chapter 4 because her life goal is entirely revolved around getting some guy. I have no problem with the romantic subplot in general.



> SS is 'wait and see'? You told me to 'wait and see' and 'the scene is not over' for the current events when I pointed out if Sakura had to have this sudden realisation for her feelings for Naruto, that time has already come and went. You're dissing your own situation.



SS _was_ wait and see. As I said previously a lot of shit has gone down for SS and Naruto's feelings have stayed the same throughout it, so it's pretty much a no-brainer for me at this stage.



> Kishi trolls can be used for every single pairing.



It's still bringing NS up, I'm not talking about the fleeting possible mentions either.



> I'm saying that NarSak hasn't had a single positive 'serious business' moment since before the pain arc, that it has been either negative, comic relief, or irrelevant (Sakura's mindset in the past few chapters isn't different from the Chunin Exam arc or the end of part 1. This is not being obtuse. This is pointing out how Kishimoto has gone with the storyline regarding NS.



Naruto diverted Izuna when they were asking about Sasuke and making Sakura upset, that was both treated as serious and positive on Naruto's part.

Sakura is far more worried about Naruto now than she was in the chunin exams arc.



> It was still negative and that's the point. You are keen on pointing out Sakura's negative views on Sasuke are supposedly telling of her eventually moving away from him, after all.



Oh it would be an issue if Naruto thought of it in a negative light.

Also you're trying to equate a false love confession with attempted murder .



> That's called selective reading. Whether Naruto saved Sakura in a similar panel or not is quite irrelevant, when it didn't come with her changing her feelings from 'he's annoying' to 'i love him' like Kushiha. People can make odd connections between panels about everything.



Again, the whole instant change thing gets a pass from me due to flashback vs current events.

Also I believe I explained previously that NS/MinaKushi similarities (even unintentional ones) can screw you.



> Naruto only attempting to woo Sakura in a light hearted manner and shown as hopeless to pursue her in a serious manner can also fit into that.



Hopeless like his dream to be Hokage? 

More seriously though it was never shown as hopeless.



> Not at all. However, that's what *you* sound like when you insist with this 'she hits him' = kushina. Sakura hits him because he's a dumbass, just like he hits Konohamaru and Sai. Kushina hits him because he's a dumbass, just like he hit her school bullies. Kushina and Naruto have a familiar bond when she hits him.



Why are we arguing over Sakura being like Kushina, it's explicit since Minato's words.

Also I do not believe Kushina never hit Minato with her personality .



> They were compared to Dan in different situations and different contexts.



I've explained my viewpoint here already.



> It's true Sasuke0s feelings about the hokage seat are new and skewed, but that doesn't mean his determination is any less. Sasuke has never shown any kind of lack of determination to pursue his goals.



Sasuke has been mighty flighty of late with his goals, that's _not_ showing determination.



> Nor does he have a shit eating grin like Naruto, nor are his reasons to be Hokage to be acknowledged like Naruto's, yet he was compared to him.



This is getting pathetic, you're using Dan being similar to Naruto as proof that DanTsu parallels SS.



> That's funny, because you just said she's the exact same always. However, my point still stands. Hinata having changed is not excuse, because Sakura wasn't like Kushina in her childhood either, yet that doesn't stop you from comparing.



Actually Sakura and Kushina were had a couple of major similarities in their childhood;

They were both violent.
They both had a physical feature they were self conscious about.
To be honest pretty much the only other thing we know from Kushina's childhood is that she wanted to be Hokage for reasons similar to why Naruto did. Also some shit about love, but IIRC that was later on when she talked to Mito.



> Then he can fit the MinaKushi parallel all by himself, he doesn't need Sakura. MinaKushi = Naruto Forever Alone.



Willful ignorance.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 27, 2014)

> You say this because you think so, but I disagree  After all, Minato was never shown to be the recepient of his wife's violent tantrums. He doesn't fit anywhere.



And yet it was the Naruto/Sakura interaction that reminded Minato of Kushina. Remember he never saw Naruto meeting Kushina either.



> But it's not at all. Sakura has already gone through this faith test thing and still loved him. Sakura has already gone through this 'omg i'm going to lose naruto' and she still didn't love him (a few chapters ago).



I covered this already, one potential pairing has to give and the one with overwhelming negatives seems to be the most likely.

Also having one possible moment passing for a pairing really isn't the end of the world . Though I'd point out that the scene still isn't concluded yet.



> I don't care either way. Why would Sakura take this more badly than she did before when Sasuke personally attacked her and promised to kill Naruto right in front of her? Like I said, we've already gone through either worse situations or the exact same situations.



Because Sasuke fighting Naruto first is a better outcome than Sasuke wanting to murder the village? Not only that but Sakura was pretty pissed at Sasuke there.



> How does that counter my point? Sasuke is going to be forgiven, just like everyone before him.



Everyone before him has a rather alarming habit of dying shortly before/after they are redeemed .

Pls no Gaara, I might cry.



ch1p said:


> Why this time it will be different, when we've already been through worse or similar situations already.



Not something to brag about, nor are negative thoughts something to dismiss.



> That you have no issues complaining that Kakashi thought of Sakura's goals negatively, yet you dismiss that he also thought of Naruto and Sasuke's goals negatively (and that doesn't many people doubt them), and that Sakura herself thought about the compliment negatively.



Naruto had previously shown his goals and was already having development there (as you said he was admonished for wanting Hokage for recognition). Sasuke's goal did actually lead to highly negative things in the long run as well.



> Kushina's words are a throwaway line, which are never mentioned again (hillariously, Naruto spoke of the baths and vegetables). In 600 chapters of opposite 'trolling' (according to you, and with a rival pairing have a volume cover.



And we're back to this. A dead mother's last words to her son (a main character) are simply never going to be a throwaway line, that's not how stories work. Also NS doesn't even need Kushina's line to still come out looking cleaner than the other pairings for those 600 chapters. The volume cover would matter more if it was actually _something_ romantic-ish.



> There is no problem in NS being comic relief at points. The problem is that Naruto doesn't have a serious business outlook to it unless it's to admit defeat towards SasuSaku.



As I said previously, Naruto never admitted defeat to SS and you should stop using that point without justification (gl getting around Naruto's words to Sai).



> The PoaLT involves Sasuke. Naruto rescuing Sakura, VS Gaara he did it because of Sasuke's speech and in Iron Country he did it because Sasuke was being a complete dick. Do you see all this Sasuke?



It doesn't matter, you said NS was mostly comic relief and I was bringing up major sources of drama for the pairing.



> When he leaves at the Hospital with a smile, he's backing off. When he does the PoaLT, he's backing off. When he says that he can't even keep his promises, he's shown as hopeless. Why isn't this important, when you have no issues whatsoever in saying Sakura having no faith in Sasuke would be the reason why she gives in? She also had no faith in him in part 1 and that changed nothing. The fact is, Naruto has backed off, at least in two instances. If you tell me 'it changed nothing' ...



I'm sorry, you wanted Naruto to be obnoxious about his feelings for Sakura there? He showed pain, other characters noticed, there was nothing about backing off implied in the scene. Not to mention he's done a pretty piss poor job of backing off if that was the case.

He wasn't shown as hopeless in the conversation with Sai. It was shown to be dependent on rescuing Sasuke and Naruto has never lost hope in that (he did come close though).



> Because he's still being a twatty bitch.



But once he's good again SS can pick up right where it left off in part 1. I wonder if Sasuke will knock sandwhiches out of Sakura's hands this time .



> Likelihood of what if JirTsu and ObiRin are both unrequited and MinaKushi has never been confirmed.



I thought it was a pretty big regret of Obito's that he never got to tell Rin how he felt?



> *Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the end of part 1.
> *Nothing changes.*
> *Sakura's feelings confirmed in beginning of part 2, during reunion*
> *Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the reunion or just after it.
> ...



I'll do it .

*Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the end of part 1.*
*Naruto's resolve gives her hope*
*Sakura's feelings confirmed in beginning of part 2, during reunion*
*Sakura showed she 'has no faith' in Sasuke in the Iron arc by trying to murder him*
*Naruto's again restore's Sakura's faith*
*Sakura shown thinking negatively about Sasuke and not trusting him*

One pairing has to give Ch1p.



> It's always because of Sasuke in someway. He's the third wheel.



Now that is highly speculative.



> I don't doubt Naruto will make him accept bonds and whatever else. That's not redeeming him though, at least not totally which was my point. Sasuke redeemed because of Itachi. If Itachi had never told him the things that he did, Naruto could have never stood a chance of reaching him.



Naruto could always reach Sasuke, I thought that was apparent.



> That would shit on the PoaLT and Naruto's words to Sai, which you take in high regard.



Well it depends, but all of the villains who did really bad things have been turning up dead regardless of redemption.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 27, 2014)

Her intentions are clear here.


She knew telling him she liked/loved him might not convince him, so here are her real intentions. Not much more to it.


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## Naiki (Feb 27, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Her intentions are clear here.
> 
> 
> She knew telling him she liked/loved him might not convince him, so here are her real intentions. Not much more to it.



Again, you misinterpreted it. She is telling him that she doesn't want him to get in trouble by chasing Sasuke and putting himself in danger for Sasuke's sake. Instead of continuing the lying and telling Naruto that she wasn't in love with Sasuke anymore, she actually tells him the truth that she doesn't want him chasing Sasuke anymore because of the pain it's putting him through.

This has nothing to do with Sakura's own feelings for Naruto, but more around telling Naruto that she wasn't in love with Sasuke anymore. When the telling him that she didn't love Sasuke anymore backfired, she told him the real reason why she came: which was because she wanted him to stop chasing Sasuke.


Again, nothing to do with her 'love' for Naruto.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 27, 2014)

Exactly. When she told him she didn't love Sasuke anymore, he knew she was lying. The whole thing was a ruse from the beginning to get him to stop chasing Sasuke. She does not have romantic feelings for Naruto and he knew that, that's why he called her a liar. That's why he stopped her and grabbed her shoulders and said:



She was forcing herself to try and have feelings for Naruto. He knows this.

And what's worse? The shinobi who gave her the love letter that got rejected. Who did she think of? Sasuke.
It just goes to show that her feelings are nothing more than platonic towards him, despite the flirting in the beginning, the 'failfession' and the, somehow for some reason, credible to only some, girlfriend comment. She is only interested in Sasuke. It's been said time and time again. Despite subtle cues you THINK have shown, she has only EVER expressed romantic interest in Sasuke LONG TERM. She may have short admiration's for Naruto, but they only last until he makes a fool of himself around her and she changes her mind. It's to the point where she doesn't need to say no anymore, HE KNOWS SHE DOES NOT LOVE HIM, and whether her feelings for Sasuke are 'wavering on a thin line' or not, she has not expressed longterm interest in Naruto in any other way than team mate and friend, she has only admired his feats as hard work and determination, never something to fall head over heels for. If there is a panel where she says she likes Naruto, where Naruto has ZERO doubt that she is telling the truth, then, maybe then, I'll believe it.
But she hasn't, and she probably won't. As long as Sasuke is back and alive, her feelings for Naruto will be that of a team mate.


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 27, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> -snip-
> It just goes to show that her feelings are nothing more than platonic towards him, despite the flirting in the beginning, the 'failfession' and the, somehow for some reason, credible to only some, girlfriend comment. She is only interested in Sasuke. It's been said time and time again. Despite subtle cues you THINK have shown, she has only EVER expressed romantic interest in Sasuke LONG TERM. *She may have short admiration's for Naruto*, but they only last until he makes a fool of himself around her and she changes her mind. It's to the point where she doesn't need to say no anymore, HE KNOWS SHE DOES NOT LOVE HIM, and whether her feelings for Sasuke are 'wavering on a thin line' or not, *she has not expressed interest in Naruto in any other way than team mate and friend*, she has only admired his feats as hard work and determination, never something to fall head over heels for. If there is a panel where she says she likes Naruto, where Naruto has ZERO doubt that she is telling the truth, then, maybe then, I'll believe it.



These comments directly contradict each other .

Unless you're talking about platonic admiration, however Naruto acting the fool doesn't change that.


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## Michael Senpai (Feb 27, 2014)

Fixed. I meant to type 'longterm interest'


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 27, 2014)

Well then you are digging your own grave then.

If you acknowledge Sakura has shown romantic interest in Naruto as well the mess that is SS, then NS comes out far ahead.


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## Naiki (Feb 27, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Exactly. When she told him she didn't love Sasuke anymore, he knew she was lying. The whole thing was a ruse from the beginning to get him to stop chasing Sasuke. She does not have romantic feelings for Naruto and he knew that, that's why he called her a liar. That's why he stopped her and grabbed her shoulders and said:



Correct, Naruto knew immediately that Sakura was lying about her love for Sasuke. The only thing identified as a ruse was her false declaration that she wasn't in love with Sasuke anymore. What you're not understanding is that Sakura was trying to tell Naruto that she wasn't in love with Sasuke anymore in order to get him to stop pursuing him. Remember, the PoaL was made because Naruto believed that Sakura loved Sasuke, so she was doing the opposite by telling him she *didn't* love Sasuke.

You don't have proof that Naruto suspected Sakura of lying about her love for him. The only thing that he appears to be suspicious about is her claim that she doesn't love Sasuke anymore. Also, Naruto never called her a liar. He said that he hated people who lied to themselves. He obviously knew that Sakura was lying about her love for Sasuke, so he called her out on it. 

Sakura was trying to fool Naruto and herself into thinking that she didn't  love Sasuke anymore, but Naruto challenged her by saying that he hated people that lied to themselves. 



> She was forcing herself to try and have feelings for Naruto. He knows this.



No, she was forcing herself into trying to *not* have feelings for Sasuke, and Naruto knew this and called her out. 



> And what's worse? The shinobi who gave her the love letter that got rejected. Who did she think of? Sasuke.



I already covered this argument before, but it appears you didn't read it. Anyway, I'll go over it again. 

I have never argued or attempted to state that Sakura is in love with Naruto. I have been arguing that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are definitely unclear and up in the air. I have given evidence as to why I think Sakura's feelings for Naruto can be viewed as incomprehensible. She may feel romantic inclination for Naruto or she may not; it's ambiguous, but I will say that I think that she is open to the idea of reciprocating Naruto's feelings. Now, the love letter scene is a clear indication that she still thinks that she's in love with Sasuke. Right now, her feelings for Naruto are unclear and up in the air, so of course he wouldn't be in that panel. On top of that, it appears as though Sakura herself doesn't understand the nature of her feelings, so it makes it even more understandable that Naruto isn't in the panel. 

When it comes to romance, Sakura reacts the same way that any Tsundere would react and that's with violence, especially towards someone that they might have romantic inclination towards. Even then, I don't even think that it was the idea of being Naruto's girlfriend that stirred her up, but the fact that Naruto was lying to his father about their relationship and to the fourth Hokage, no less. 



> It just goes to show that her feelings are nothing more than platonic towards him, despite the flirting in the beginning, the 'failfession' and the, somehow for some reason, credible to only some, girlfriend comment.



I don't think it's normal to be physically attracted to someone that you view in a completely platonic way. If you are, then you might have some unclear feelings yourself, just like Sakura. That's like saying that you can flirt with your family members or friends and still love them platonically. 

Creepy. 

Anyway, I already covered those things. So, next. 



> She is only interested in Sasuke. It's been said time and time again. Despite subtle cues you THINK have shown, *she has only EVER expressed romantic interest in Sasuke LONG TERM.* She may have short admiration's for Naruto, but they only last until he makes a fool of himself around her and she changes her mind.



Naruto has only expressed long-term romantic interest in Sakura too, but you NH people are quick to assume that they aren't there anymore. Hell, you're claiming right now that Sakura has only expressed long-term romantic interest in Sasuke when her love for him wasn't even mentioned for the majority of part two until we basically hit the Five Kage Summit arc. 

The same thing can be said for NH, can't it? Naruto is only interested in Sakura and it also has been shown time and time again. Despite clues that Naruto still loves her, you guys still think that Naruto is developing romantic feelings for Hinata when it was nothing more than respect being developed. 

And for the record, Sakura has always showed strong belief in Naruto even when he does act a fool. When Pein attacked the village, who was the one that she called on? Her admiration of him remains the same. So, I don't understand where you get the notion that she "changes her mind" because if that were the case, she would've given up on believing that his dream to become Hokage would ever come true.

But she hasn't. 

If you want to still believe that she hasn't expressed romantic inclination for Naruto, go right ahead. I'm tired of presenting the same evidence over and over again to someone who presents the same argument over and over again which I always back up with logical proof. 

Next person please. 



> *It's to the point where she doesn't need to say no anymore, HE KNOWS SHE DOES NOT LOVE HIM*, and whether her feelings for Sasuke are 'wavering on a thin line' or not, she has not expressed interest in Naruto in any other way than team mate and friend, *she has only admired his feats as hard work and determination, never something to fall head over heels for. *If there is a panel where she says she likes Naruto, where Naruto has ZERO doubt that she is telling the truth, then, maybe then, I'll believe it.
> But she hasn't, and she probably won't. As long as Sasuke is back and alive, her feelings for Naruto will be that of a team mate.



 I already covered the confession part above about you think that Naruto's saying she's lying about her loving him. 

And I also provided evidence that she was admiring his matured appearance and personality, so again, I'm not going to continue giving the same evidence over and over again. It's like the stuff goes completely in one ear and out the other. As I said, I've given my manga panels that show my point. 

Also, I don't think it would be very wise to believe the word of Naruto. Naruto has always thought of Sakura as unattainable and he never once considered the possibility that Sakura might actually begin to fall in love with him some day, so I wouldn't really take it word for it. 

It's also pretty obvious that Sakura's feelings for Naruto are stronger for her love for Sasuke, so where you get the notion that she will always think of Naruto as only a teammate? I have no clue.  If anything, what's more possible is that Sakura's weak love for Sasuke is soon to give.


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## pizza_blade (Feb 27, 2014)

It's like, many who discussed that Sakura's confession always seem forget to include the *chapter immediately afterwards*, where Kishimoto *laid it thick* about the reasonings why Sakura did what she did.

It's always "Oh no Naruto told Sakura flatly to her face that he hated what she did" without putting any thoughts about how, in the chapter *immediately afterwards*, he was caught unaware when Sai explained to him Sakura's motives, although even the chapter itself alluded rather blatantly that, even Naruto himself realized the real reasonings behind her action, which was her feeling extremely worried about Naruto's well-being.


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## Kage (Feb 27, 2014)

She meant well but her execution sent a completely different message. In an attempt to spare Naruto's feelings she makes a mockery of them instead (there was good reason Naruto referred to it as a joke that's not funny) and then she has the nerve to get upset when he doesn't fall for it. She was acting in what she believed was his best interests but the truth of the matter was she overestimated herself and underestimated Naruto.

Aside from making the idea of NaruSaku look bad it hasn't really affected the relationship itself. Sakura still cares and worries over him. Naruto doesn't hold it against her and it appears it has not changed his romantic interest in her at all.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 27, 2014)

I guess the confession wasn't a complete lie


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## CalmPurple (Feb 27, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> I guess the confession wasn't a complete lie



That her saying she wants to fight with Naruto. Not excatly love evidence.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 28, 2014)

CalmPurple said:


> That her saying she wants to fight with Naruto. Not excatly love evidence.



Saying she's going to be by his side no matter "what he says this time" is though


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## Mr Horrible (Feb 28, 2014)

The next panel seems to heavily imply Sakura was referring to fighting together with Naruto imo;
"No matter what you say this time... we're going to be together..."
"Not just me..."
"We're all going to fight together this time!"

Not to mention it'd be very strange for Sakura to say a line like that considering where the subplot is at the moment.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Feb 28, 2014)

Kage said:


> She meant well but her execution sent a completely different message. In an attempt to spare Naruto's feelings she makes a mockery of them instead (there was good reason Naruto referred to it as a joke that's not funny) and then she has the nerve to get upset when he doesn't fall for it. She was acting in what she believed was his best interests but the truth of the matter was she overestimated herself and underestimated Naruto.
> 
> Aside from making the idea of NaruSaku look bad it hasn't really affected the relationship itself. Sakura still cares and worries over him. Naruto doesn't hold it against her and it appears it has not changed his romantic interest in her at all.



oh please.
more like, Sakura was manipulating her OWN feelings, and Naruto didn't care.


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## Kurama (Feb 28, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> Saying she's going to be by his side no matter "what he says this time" is though



Not when you consider his usual "taking it alone" approach to battle.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Feb 28, 2014)

Kurama said:


> He honorifics argument is a waste of time, since Naruto doesn't use honorifics with Hinata, nor does Sasuke bother with them at all. Sakura neglected to use honorifics with Naruto when she despised him, so her still not using them isn't distinctive of anything. Sakura and Hinata use the "kun" honorific with their objects of affection [Hinata uses it towards all her male peers due to her noble upbringing], they'd only DROP them once in a committed relationship with them. We know Sakura and Naruto are close friends, but you can't use honorifics to attempt to imply Sakura has feelings other than friendship when she proves that to not be the case.


Your counterargument is really rather missing the point. The situation is not "fan knows how Japanese honorifics work and then uses that knowledge to point out Sakura not using them with Naruto as a sign of romantic feelings", its "mangaka goes out of his way to have a character point out the significance of it then directly point out Sakura not using it for Naruto". Other characters lack of honorifics in certain situations are irrelevant to the point, especially Naruto who never has been one for formality and Sasuke who is just an asshole who believes pretty much everyone is below him. -Kun isn't really a term of endearment either, -chan however is.

You would be better off arguing that "Sai is an emotional retard" which I know your side likes to do, while missing the point that such scenes are more or less meant to show that Naruto and Sakura are so close that even emotionally stunted people like Sai and Yamato can see it. Whether or not they matter now is the real point of debate. An author can change his mind as a story goes on and at times it did seem to me as if he changed his mind from clearly gunning for NS to going for NH to teetering between the two. You could also argue that it was all a red herring but that kind of misses the point of a red herring and ignores Kishi's other uses of it.



MichaelInsanity said:


> Back on topic, yes Naiki, the beginning of shippuden, she was flirting with him, that much is clear.
> What else is clear is that she was testing to see if he changed, which he did not.
> That was an immediate turn off to her and her "feelings' towards him stayed as a friend from that point on. Nothing more.


He had actually changed and matured personality wise and she says she feels sad at the thought that the prankster/silly Naruto might be gone. However, that doesn't mean she is going to want Naruto to be having a "who can turn into the hotter naked woman" contest in the middle of the street. I do have to wonder though, do you believe such a thing to be a turn on for Hinata? Quite kinky of her, I'd have to say. In all seriousness though, I doubt Hinata would rather approve of it, as its really inappropriate(even more so in Japan then it would be in America). She certainly would go about "trying" to deal with it in a different manner, if she has the resolve to voice her disapproval at all.

Disliking one aspect of Naruto's prankster nature(we know she likes pranks in general) isn't really much of anything(every couple has an aspect of their spouse that they dislike, conflict is a natural and healthy thing in relationships and no, killing attempts are not healthy conflict), especially as its not something that happens often(being a pervert is much more Jiraiya's thing than Naruto's, its a very small part of Naruto) and Naruto has matured much more from the beginning of part 2 to now then he has from part 1 to part 2. Sakura has also proven to be a bit perverted herself since then what with her fawning over the male on male version of sexy no jutsu. She might be a bit less inclined to get too angry with him next time he does it given he can call her out on that

Given you acknowledge that she was attracted to the thought of a matured Naruto and likes the silly aspects of his personality enough to think to miss them, then what is exactly stopping her from being attracted to the current many times more mature version of Naruto? One that she has only gotten closer to over the course of part 2. Some girl rule that once you place them in the friendzone they are permanently there? She kind of broke that if it exists at the beginning of part 2 with those thoughts.


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## AMtrack (Mar 1, 2014)

Aye yai.  Really this is a story for teenagers, so its really not as complicated as some of you are making it out to be.  I realize you have to do this to justify your OTP, but I'm all about the K.I.S.S system here.  

Naruto loves him some Sakura.  There's never been any question about this inside the manga.  He either gets the girl or he doesn't.  Thats what it boils down to.  Simple right?

NH can't happen for obvious reasons.  SS is more of the same.  None of those pairings are really factors, because neither of the males are interested.  And in case you forgot, this is a shounen.  Its all about the males and what they want.

Regardless what you think about Sakura's feelings, Kishi said himself that a woman's heart changes like the autumn skies.  Notice there was no mention about a man's heart, you feel me?

/wrap


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Mar 1, 2014)

Why do you all insist on defending that confession? There's no way around how shitty that was, regardless of Sakura's intentions.


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## Kage (Mar 1, 2014)

Beats me. It was pretty damn stupid and insensitive despite her good intentions. But it does strike me as odd it has to be defended so fiercely because, while terrible, it wasn't the most controversial thing to happen to a pairing in that arc. Priorities.


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## Naiki (Mar 1, 2014)

I do agree that the confession was completely unnecessary and badly placed, but it did show that Sakura cares about Naruto to the extent where she is willing to give up her happiness for him. I just hate when people make Sakura out to be some type of manipulative liar when she only means well.

Yes, she lied during the confession but it was for a good cause.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 1, 2014)

No one said she was manipulative, but she wasn't truthful. She did have good intentions, but I think she should have thought it through a bit more. That's the point. It was horribly placed, badly timed, and the way it was said made no sense. The topic itself is hard to even discuss because of that fact.


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## AMtrack (Mar 1, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> No one said she was manipulative, but she wasn't truthful. She did have good intentions, but I think she should have thought it through a bit more. That's the point. It was horribly placed, badly timed, and the way it was said made no sense. The topic itself is hard to even discuss because of that fact.



In the grand scheme of things her confession is so irrelevant I fail to see why it comes up in pairing debates at all /shrug


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## Kage (Mar 1, 2014)

Naiki said:


> I do agree that the confession was completely unnecessary and badly placed, but it did show that Sakura cares about Naruto to the extent where she is willing to give up her happiness for him. I just hate when people make Sakura out to be some type of manipulative liar when she only means well.
> 
> Yes, she lied during the confession but it was for a good cause.



It's just laughable what she was willing to give up, that being a hypothetical future with the guy of her dreams who has never been quite dreamy (to her or anybody else really) to begin with.

How _terrible_ for her to part with such _happiness_ while Naruto had to settle for losing _two_ friends for his own good!

Like I said before, she underestimated him and she _did_ attempt to manipulate him using his feelings for her. For a "good cause" or not it shows a lack of respect that was completely uncalled for when he has been nothing but supportive, if a bit withdrawn and secretive, to her.

Up until that point we already knew she cared. In fact I'd say her running to a KN4 Naruto declaring she would save Sasuke _for him_ is a much better example of showing the extent of her feelings in a way that's not completely atrocious.


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## Naiki (Mar 1, 2014)

Kage said:


> It's just laughable what she was willing to give up, that being a hypothetical future with the guy of her dreams who has never been quite dreamy (to her or anybody else really) to begin with.
> 
> How _terrible_ for her to part with such _happiness_ while Naruto had to settle for losing _two_ friends for his own good!
> 
> ...




Well, Sasuke never made her happy anyways so I don't think it would really be a difference if Sasuke lived or not. Alive, Sasuke would still treat her like crap and dead, he just wouldn't be there anymore but she would still be depressed because the guy she loves is dead.

Either way, she doesn't win. I agree that she underestimated him as far as his willing to stop pursuing Sasuke _just_ because she asked him to. I will say that she underestimated him there, but I don't agree that she was manipulating him using his feelings. 

She gave valid reasons as to why she 'loves' him, and that's what makes her words about 'loving' him believable, to me atleast. She might not be 'in love' with him, but I personally think that the feelings are ambiguous and as of now, he is someone close to her. 

I agree about the KN4. The confession was atrocious and I wish it never happened, but it did.


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## Kage (Mar 1, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Well, Sasuke never made her happy anyways so I don't think it would really be a difference if Sasuke lived or not. Alive, Sasuke would still treat her like crap and dead, he just wouldn't be there anymore but she would still be depressed because the guy she loves is dead.
> 
> Either way, she doesn't win. I agree that she underestimated him as far as his willing to stop pursuing Sasuke _just_ because she asked him to. I will say that she underestimated him there, but I don't agree that she was manipulating him using his feelings.
> 
> ...


He did make her happy but mostly because of their shared experiences as a team. Trying to reach out and connect with him alone is where the bulk of her misery comes from because she was unsuccessful.

She knew how he felt about her and tried to use that knowledge to get him to do what she wanted. It would be like Naruto telling Hinata that he loves her and not Sakura _just_ to get Hinata to stop jumping between him and deadly projectiles. It is a form of manipulation.

Yes but all those good reasons don't mean much when she's not being sincere. I don't really know if being close to her will be enough to get her to truly fall for him in the end. I don't really care either as long as Naruto is happy and he's already proven he's not going to accept anything less than her genuine feelings.

In hindsight the whole Iron country fiasco sort of seems like a twisted attempt to make good on her word to save Sasuke for him doesn't it? lol. It did but it's better to acknowledge it for the train-wreck it was and still be able to make a _reasonable_ case despite. At least it's easier for me to appreciate and respect any opposition that way.


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## AMtrack (Mar 1, 2014)

Kage said:


> It would be like Naruto telling Hinata that he loves her and not Sakura _just_ to get Hinata to stop jumping between him and deadly projectiles. It is a form of manipulation.



If that was the only way you could save someone's life is that really so bad?  I think Sakura gets an undeserved amount of flak for that, when any of you would (i hope) do the same thing if it meant keeping someone you cared about alive.

People get over heartbreak.  They don't get over being dead.  If I had to choose between breaking someone's heart and making them hate me, or keeping them alive, I choose LIFE.  So did Sakura.

Its really not a big deal.  It wasnt a big deal to Naruto, idk why its such a big deal here.  Then again, NF looks for any reason to hate Sakura.  Its silly really.  Sure she failed, and sure she underestimated Naruto's resolve, but she was just trying to save him from what she thought was certain death.  She just wanted Naruto safe and alive.  Hardly the evil little witch ppl make her out to be.


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## Kage (Mar 1, 2014)

AMtrack said:


> If that was the only way you could save someone's life is that really so bad?  I think Sakura gets an undeserved amount of flak for that, when any of you would (i hope) do the same thing if it meant keeping someone you cared about alive.
> 
> People get over heartbreak.  They don't get over being dead.  If I had to choose between breaking someone's heart and making them hate me, or keeping them alive, I choose LIFE.  So did Sakura.
> 
> Its really not a big deal.  It wasnt a big deal to Naruto, idk why its such a big deal here.  Then again, NF looks for any reason to hate Sakura.  Its silly really.  Sure she failed, and sure she underestimated Naruto's resolve, but she was just trying to save him from what she thought was certain death.  She just wanted Naruto safe and alive.  Hardly the evil little witch ppl make her out to be.


Is it that much harder to just tell them to stay out of dangerous situations rather than lying about what they mean to you? More to the point if "the only way" involves fake love confessions that just makes the entire situation sound ridiculous and less dire than it really is. As if all Naruto's grief and chances of survival could really be resolved by having Sakura as a girlfriend Obito he is not

It was the product of an emotional, distressed Sakura. I wouldn't care half as much if she didn't end up endangering Naruto's life _anyway_ by trying to do the "right" thing and failing because in the end, what she felt mattered more than "saving" Sasuke or Naruto.

Sakura makes it too easy tbh. It was a slap in the face to the last person that deserved it from her and while Naruto has forgiven her (come on now the guy has resolved to not let any hate consume his heart so Sakura's fail is the least of his concerns) it's left a bad impression.


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## Naiki (Mar 1, 2014)

Kage said:


> He did make her happy but mostly because of their shared experiences as a team. Trying to reach out and connect with him alone is where the bulk of her misery comes from because she was unsuccessful.
> 
> She knew how he felt about her and tried to use that knowledge to get him to do what she wanted. It would be like Naruto telling Hinata that he loves her and not Sakura _just_ to get Hinata to stop jumping between him and deadly projectiles. It is a form of manipulation.
> 
> ...




Yes, you're right about that. They were a team and the shared experiences that they had together are what made her cherish those memories as well as her team; a team *including* Sasuke, not excluding him. 

And by telling Naruto that she is in love with him, how exactly would that get him to return to the village? That's right, it wouldn't get Naruto to return to the village because that's not the basis on why Naruto is pursuing Sasuke. The basis (according to Sakura) on why Naruto is pursuing Sasuke is because of the PoaL, which was made in the name of her love for Sasuke.

By telling Naruto that she isn't in love with Sasuke anymore, she was releasing him from the burden of the PoaL. Her own personal feelings toward Naruto have nothing to do with her plot to get Naruto to return to Konoha. 

I'll admit. The Iron Country arc was a real train wreck. In my opinion, Kishimoto could have found a better way to illustrate Sakura's role as a heroine but also the lengths she would go for Naruto. Hell, Sakura even attempting to kill Sasuke was ludicrous to even think about. It wouldn't have solved nothing but Naruto would've been without *two* teammates. Kishimoto must've been smoking some strong weed that day, but . . . what can you do? 

On top of that, Kakashi would've gotten killed by Sasuke as well if it hadn't been for Naruto showing up on time, it was thanks to Sai telling them everything in front of Naruto. Sakura would've gotten everyone killed because of her action.


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## AMtrack (Mar 2, 2014)

Kage said:


> Is it that much harder to just tell them to stay out of dangerous situations rather than lying about what they mean to you? More to the point if "the only way" involves fake love confessions that just makes the entire situation sound ridiculous and less dire than it really is. As if all Naruto's grief and chances of survival could really be resolved by having Sakura as a girlfriend Obito he is not



Telling ppl to simply stay out of danger doesn't work.  Ppl like Naruto and Hinata operate out of selflessness.  Heck, ppl told Hinata to stay back (including Naruto) and she still tried to fight Pain.  It was only by dumb luck she didnt die.

By "only way" i dont necessarily mean just fake love confessions, but any form of manipulation in general.  The idea is to find the weak point in someone's selflessness so they dont kill themselves unnecessarily.  Sakura's attempt was lame, and poorly thought out, but i dont fault the effort.  Naruto is a hard person to manipulate, so I can't think of anything better that she could have used.



> It was the product of an emotional, distressed Sakura. I wouldn't care half as much if she didn't end up endangering Naruto's life _anyway_ by trying to do the "right" thing and failing because in the end, what she felt mattered more than "saving" Sasuke or Naruto.



Well you can't fault her for the irony.  Naruto wasnt supposed to follow her, much less save her.  The plan was really to bring Sasuke down or die on her own trying.  She didnt ask, nor want, Naruto to be involved.  The entire point of her trip was to get him to stop taking on the world by himself.



> Sakura makes it too easy tbh. It was a slap in the face to the last person that deserved it from her and while Naruto has forgiven her (come on now the guy has resolved to not let any hate consume his heart so Sakura's fail is the least of his concerns) it's left a bad impression.



Sakura is human.  Most of us would be just like her in similar situations.  Naruto is over-idealized, and Sasuke is too extreme.  Sakura is what a "normal" person would be like in the shinobi world.  Its easy to make fun of her bc she's surrounded by unnatural characters; but lets not forget that we wouldn't fare any better, and possibly would fare much worse


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## Kage (Mar 5, 2014)

AMtrack said:


> Telling ppl to simply stay out of danger doesn't work.  Ppl like Naruto and Hinata operate out of selflessness.  Heck, ppl told Hinata to stay back (including Naruto) and she still tried to fight Pain.  It was only by dumb luck she didnt die.
> 
> By "only way" i dont necessarily mean just fake love confessions, but any form of manipulation in general.  The idea is to find the weak point in someone's selflessness so they dont kill themselves unnecessarily.  Sakura's attempt was lame, and poorly thought out, but i dont fault the effort.  Naruto is a hard person to manipulate, so I can't think of anything better that she could have used.


Apparently neither could she so my point still remains. In that moment she decided she possesses a strength Naruto doesn't, she was wrong and managed to turn the whole effort into a circus. I can't give her points for trying when it falls apart so spectacularly (at more than just her expense)




AMtrack said:


> Well you can't fault her for the irony.  Naruto wasnt supposed to follow her, much less save her.  The plan was really to bring Sasuke down or die on her own trying.  She didnt ask, nor want, Naruto to be involved.  The entire point of her trip was to get him to stop taking on the world by himself.


If Naruto didn't Kakashi would have. Either way her plan was sloppy enough to end up endangering people who actually care about her. 



AMtrack said:


> Sakura is human.  Most of us would be just like her in similar situations.  Naruto is over-idealized, and Sasuke is too extreme.  Sakura is what a "normal" person would be like in the shinobi world.  Its easy to make fun of her bc she's surrounded by unnatural characters; but lets not forget that we wouldn't fare any better, and possibly would fare much worse


Sakura is the most "normal" of the trio yes but her decisions and the motivations behind them make the over the top Naruto and Sasuke easier to sympathize with IMO sometimes.  If I'm gonna read a story about extreme magical ninjas that's what I'm going to expect, not a normal girl playing at one.


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## Mr Horrible (Mar 5, 2014)

You find Sasuke easier to sympathize with than Sakura?

Actually I guess I agree somewhat, dead family does trump 12 year old love in my book. That being said Sasuke is an intentional asshole to Naruto and Co for pretty much part 2. At least Sakura just seems... Odd rather than dickish.


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## LesExit (Mar 6, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> You find Sasuke easier to sympathize with than Sakura?
> 
> Actually I guess I agree somewhat, dead family does trump 12 year old love in my book. That being said Sasuke is an intentional asshole to Naruto and Co for pretty much part 2. At least Sakura just seems... Odd rather than dickish.


I think I have more sympathy for Sasuke...but more empathy for Sakura, because I think because she's more regularish...she's easier to relate to in some ways?


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## AMtrack (Mar 7, 2014)

Kage said:


> -snip-



Don't get me wrong, I dont disagree with the principles of your distaste.  I'm just pointing out that compared to what else has been done by others, Sakura's confession is not even worth noting.  It gets far more negative attention than it deserves.  It was an honest mistake driven by good intentions.  The manga is *filled* with those, and far more driven by malicious intent.

Really  its not all that different from Hinata's confession.  Both were out of place, and endangered those around them, but they came from good intentions.  Both did not plan on living afterwards.  Both of them were acting out of love.  Both of them tried to save Naruto.

The only real difference between the two is that Hinata was entirely truthful to herself.  Sakura was not.  But the feelings behind either confession were definitely real.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 7, 2014)

AMtrack said:


> But the feelings behind either confession were definitely real.



Hinata's was undeniably real. This much has been clear since she first appeared.

Sakura's.... Ehhh I don't even know why we're arguing hers anymore. Her intentions are clear. Read back in the previous threads. You'll know why it's so horribly disputed. It's a dead horse, I think it's time to put the whip away on this once and for all.


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## AMtrack (Mar 8, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Hinata's was undeniably real. This much has been clear since she first appeared.
> 
> Sakura's.... Ehhh I don't even know why we're arguing hers anymore. Her intentions are clear. Read back in the previous threads. You'll know why it's so horribly disputed. It's a dead horse, I think it's time to put the whip away on this once and for all.



Its disputed because its Sakura..thats why. Its not even a dispute. Its just a collection of ppl thinking she should burn in hell for it. Ironic really, considering what Sasuke and others have done. 

Really if anyone should burn in hell its Sasuke.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm sorry, the character bash was a bit unwarrented .-. Sasuke has had a shitty life, thought it's no excuse, it does provide reasoning. It's also a bit hypocritical saying "People think she should burn in hell" but going and saying that.
No one here has expressed unnecessary hatred towards Sakura, at least not from what I've seen, and to say so is baiting people to give a shitty reply to you.


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## Kage (Mar 8, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> You find Sasuke easier to sympathize with than Sakura?
> 
> Actually I guess I agree somewhat, dead family does trump 12 year old love in my book. That being said Sasuke is an intentional asshole to Naruto and Co for pretty much part 2. At least Sakura just seems... Odd rather than dickish.



Um hmm.

It's because Sasuke is intentionally being an asshole that it makes the well meaning Sakura look worse at times. As such it's less likely for Sasuke to say and do hurtful things while claiming they are for someone's own good.



AMtrack said:


> Don't get me wrong, I dont disagree with the principles of your distaste.  I'm just pointing out that compared to what else has been done by others, Sakura's confession is not even worth noting.  It gets far more negative attention than it deserves.  It was an honest mistake driven by good intentions.  The manga is *filled* with those, and far more driven by malicious intent.


I actually made the same point despite my distaste a few posts back lol. 



Kage said:


> Beats me. It was pretty damn stupid and insensitive despite her good intentions. But it does strike me as odd it has to be defended so fiercely because, while terrible, it wasn't the most controversial thing to happen to a pairing in that arc. Priorities.


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## PAWS (Mar 8, 2014)

The confession was so big for NS because it showed Sakura putting Naruto ahead of Sasuke once again. Kishi of course did terrible and made Sakura look bad but that still does not change the fact that she put Naruto over whatever love she has for Sasuke.


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## Kage (Mar 8, 2014)

Close but no cigar. Sakura failed to follow through because she _couldn't let go_ of her girlhood crush, not even to "save" said crush or to release Naruto of his burdens.

In any event that confession doesn't really have any long term repercussions (trashing Sakura aside) or benefits really. Now Sasuke's betrayal, which has left nothing but a despondent distrustful Sakura in it's wake, is a different story. Don't know how much longer "because she loves him" is supposed to hold up as reason to dismiss the overall negativity surrounding her feelings for him. or why such is used as a defense at all

The only one of the three here to be portrayed unfavorably too.


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## LesExit (Mar 8, 2014)

PAWS said:


> The confession was so big for NS because it showed Sakura putting Naruto ahead of Sasuke once again. Kishi of course did terrible and made Sakura look bad but that still does not change the fact that she put Naruto over whatever love she has for Sasuke.


 She wanted to stop Sasuke because she was tired of seeing Naruto being hurt chasing Sasuke by what she thought he was still doing largely because of his promise(not true), but also because she couldn't handle seeing the one she loved going deeper and deeper on a path of darkness. In the end her love for Sasuke prevented her from stabbing him....not like if she did he would've really died though. o____o I still don't get how she could've thought that would work.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 8, 2014)

Kage said:


> Close but no cigar. Sakura failed to follow through because she _couldn't let go_ of her girlhood crush, not even to "save" said crush or to release Naruto of his burdens.
> 
> In any event that confession doesn't really have any long term repercussions (trashing Sakura aside) or benefits really.



This so much.
She wanted to kill Sasuke because she loved him and didn't want to go further into the darkness.
Also, if she had succeeded in killing Sasuke, you'd think:
 "Well maybe then she could have fallen for Naruto and not had to think about it anymore right? Maybe then she would actually feel the things she said in her confession right?"

Wrong. Because Naruto would have hated her. Not JUST because Sasuke was his friend, no no not JUST that, but also, the amount of time he spent, training his ass off just to be told
"Nah it's ok now, I like you. You can quit " Which is complete and utter bullshit.


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## PAWS (Mar 8, 2014)

LesExit said:


> She wanted to stop Sasuke because she was tired of seeing Naruto being hurt chasing Sasuke by what she thought he was still doing largely because of his promise(not true), but also because she couldn't handle seeing the one she loved going deeper and deeper on a path of darkness. In the end her love for Sasuke prevented her from stabbing him....not like if she did he would've really died though. o____o I still don't get how she could've thought that would work.



Exactly look how far she was going for Naruto, she was willing to go that far. And she has love for part 1 Sasuke, she knows nothing bout current Sasuke so she cant actually love him, she only stopped because of her childhood crush.  How would it not? If she stabbed him in the heart or throat, the poison may not have killed him but depending on where she stabbed him it would have.


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## LesExit (Mar 8, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Exactly look how far she was going for Naruto, she was willing to go that far. And she has love for part 1 Sasuke, she knows nothing bout current Sasuke so she cant actually love him, she only stopped because of her childhood crush.  How would it not? If she stabbed him in the heart or throat, the poison may not have killed him but depending on where she stabbed him it would have.


Yes she did it for both of them. 

My aunt loves her son dearly, but she hates who he's become. He's basically in and out of jail, a criminal, but she loves him. She doesn't have to like the person he is now to still love him, because when she sees him, she remembers the person he was when he was younger, and hopes that he will change for the better one day. Sakura loves Sasuke, and hates who he's become, she began to loose hope that Sasuke would ever be able to come out of the darkness and thats why she wanted to kill him, but Naruto was able to give her back some faith that one day Team 7 would laugh together again. It's possible for Sasuke to change for the better, but he also might continue on a dark path. Sakura is of course extremely weary of him as she should be, his intentions are unclear, I mean he just said he was gonna be Hokage o___o?? 


....didn't Kakashi tell her that the poison would have no effect or something?
(EDIT) found the page *and*


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## Scila9 (Mar 8, 2014)

Kage said:


> Close but no cigar. Sakura failed to follow through because she _couldn't let go_ of her girlhood crush, *not even to "save" said crush* or to release Naruto of his burdens.



Put this way, it sounds like another example of Sakura's love for Sasuke being selfish. Even after seeing how far he'd fallen she ultimately couldn't bring herself to 'save' him because she ultimately never puts Sasuke himself above her own wants/feelings for him.

It's really never about how Sasuke feels with these two, is it?



> Yes she did it for both of them.
> 
> My aunt loves her son dearly, but she hates who he's become. He's basically in and out of jail, a criminal, but she loves him. She doesn't have to like the person he is now to still love him, because when she sees him, she remembers the person he was when he was younger, and hopes that he will change for the better one day. Sakura loves Sasuke, and hates who he's become, she began to loose hope that Sasuke would ever be able to come out of the darkness and thats why she wanted to kill him, but Naruto was able to give her back some faith that one day Team 7 would laugh together again. It's possible for Sasuke to change for the better, but he also might continue on a dark path. Sakura is of course extremely weary of him as she should be, his intentions are unclear, I mean he just said he was gonna be Hokage o___o??
> 
> ...



Loving a family member or even just a friend and hoping they'll change for the better is quite different from loving someone in a potential lover kind of way and hoping _they'll_ change for the better. Selfishly holding on to a love like that and forever wanting/hoping the person will change is not something I'd encourage. Don't pursue someone romantically if you don't love them just as they are.

Yeah, Kakashi said Sasuke would be immune to the poison, but I agree with *PAWS*. Depending on where Sakura was aiming that kunai still could have killed Sasuke... which would have been hilariously anticlimactic really. Sasuke dying from a kunai stab


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## LesExit (Mar 8, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Loving a family member or even just a friend and hoping they'll change for the better is quite different from loving someone in a potential lover kind of way and hoping _they'll_ change for the better. Selfishly holding on to a love like that and forever wanting/hoping the person will change is not something I'd encourage. Don't pursue someone romantically if you don't love them just as they are.
> 
> Yeah, Kakashi said Sasuke would be immune to the poison, but I agree with *PAWS*. Depending on where Sakura was aiming that kunai still could have killed Sasuke... which would have been hilariously anticlimactic really. Sasuke dyng from a kunai stab


I agree. Don't pursue them romantically if you don't love them as they are. Thats why I've been saying if Sasuke makes positive developments. Sakura's not stupid .___. she's clearly not pursuing a relationship with him right now, that doesn't make sense XD It's _if_ he changes. 

Plot wouldn't have allowed that in any way O___O and I think NF would've exploded in laughter....and anger


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## Kage (Mar 8, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Put this way, it sounds like another example of Sakura's love for Sasuke being selfish. Even after seeing how far he'd fallen she ultimately couldn't bring herself to 'save' him because she ultimately never puts Sasuke himself above her own wants/feelings for him.
> 
> It's really never about how Sasuke feels with these two, is it?



Exactly.

Indeed but all things considered I think Sakura is more sympathetic than she should be when Sasuke hasn't bothered to give fucks about anybody's feelings but his own for a long time now. Even so it shouldn't be an excuse to ignore his complete lack of interest (homicidal or not) or the fact that the power of Sakura's love is not central to his character at all. 

If/when Sasuke makes a change for the better I very much doubt turning himself into perfect husband material so Sakura doesn't have to hang her head in shame anymore is going to be top on the priorities list.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 8, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I agree. Don't pursue them romantically if you don't love them as they are. Thats why I've been saying if Sasuke makes positive developments. Sakura's not stupid .___. she's clearly not pursuing a relationship with him right now, that doesn't make sense XD It's _if_ he changes.
> 
> Plot wouldn't have allowed that in any way O___O and I think NF would've exploded in laughter....and anger



She shouldn't be pursuing him at all. I always found that argument that depends upon that matter of Sasuke changing pretty warped, because he's already reached the point where he has shown where his worst can take him, and Sakura has been on the bad end of that multiple times. It is somewhat understandable she cares for him and doesn't want to see him killed, but it is absolutely unsympathetic that she would still pine for him and hold out on the hope of him changing after all he has done to her and those around her. That's not the kind of behavior anyone should be encouraging, idealizing, or romanticizing.


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## LesExit (Mar 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> She shouldn't be pursuing him at all. I always found that argument that depends upon that matter of Sasuke changing pretty warped, because he's already reached the point where he has shown where his worst can take him, and Sakura has been on the bad end of that multiple times. It is somewhat understandable she cares for him and doesn't want to see him killed, but it is absolutely unsympathetic that she would still pine for him and hold out on the hope of him changing after all he has done to her and those around her. That's not the kind of behavior anyone should be encouraging, idealizing, or romanticizing.


Well that's basically all Naruto and Sakura have been doing for this entire manga XD I think it's all pretty over exaggerated, but Kishimoto just likes the message of never giving up I guess.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Mar 9, 2014)

The fact that this manga tries to pretend Naruto and Sasuke actually HAD a bond is pretty hilarious to be honest.


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## AMtrack (Mar 9, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Well that's basically all Naruto and Sakura have been doing for this entire manga XD I think it's all pretty over exaggerated, but Kishimoto just likes the message of never giving up I guess.



Well in all fairness, since when has Sakura been pursuing Sasuke romantically?  Sure she pined for his attention before he left in part one, but I haven't seen anything close to "romantic pursuit" since she agreed to help Naruto retrieve him.  All I've gathered is Sakura wants team 7 back together again, and she wants Sasuke to stop doing bad things.  There is no "romantic pursuit" here, nor in any of the pairings really.

Well, Hinata is actually the only one engaged in a pursuit of sorts.  Maybe Naruto if we assume confessing his feelings to Sakura is still on his to-do list.


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## Scila9 (Mar 9, 2014)

AMtrack said:


> Well in all fairness, since when has Sakura been pursuing Sasuke romantically?  Sure she pined for his attention before he left in part one, but I haven't seen anything close to "romantic pursuit" since she agreed to help Naruto retrieve him.  *All I've gathered is Sakura wants team 7 back together again, and she wants Sasuke to stop doing bad things.*  There is no "romantic pursuit" here, nor in any of the pairings really.



That's all I see too. The future of SasuSaku is extremely bleak atm. It has been for the entirety of Part 2. There is literally nothing positive to go on here. It all depends on very slim maybes and ifs and a whole lot of disregarding things that have occurred between them. 

Both NaruHina and NaruSaku have more than that going for them.

Shouldn't put this:
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hell, even SK has more going for it right now imo But that's really not saying much






> Well, Hinata is actually the only one engaged in a pursuit of sorts.  *Maybe Naruto if we assume confessing his feelings to Sakura is still on his to-do list.*



I think it probably is. I still believe Naruto loves Sakura. I see no indication that he has moved on, so to me the flashback with Sai certainly made it sound like the only thing that's holding Naruto back is that he feels he somehow doesn't have the right to confess to Sakura as he hasn't been able to keep his word yet. I also don't think the events of the Kage Summit Arc were enough for Naruto to stop loving Sakura. It would take alot more than that I think.

The only reason I'm not saying I'm sure Naruto will absolutely, 100% confess to Sakura is that he didn't outright say "Once I keep my promise I will tell her how I feel." It was only implied.

As for Hinata, we'll just have to wait and see if Kishi plans on putting her back in the spotlight. The way things have gone he could technically end the manga without anything more happening with Hinata. That'd be rather disappointing for me though


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## PAWS (Mar 10, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> The fact that this manga tries to pretend Naruto and Sasuke actually HAD a bond is pretty hilarious to be honest.



How did they not have a bond? They trained together and were at each other's throat most of time but they both came around to being friends.


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## LesExit (Mar 10, 2014)

AMtrack said:


> Well in all fairness, since when has Sakura been pursuing Sasuke romantically?  Sure she pined for his attention before he left in part one, but I haven't seen anything close to "romantic pursuit" since she agreed to help Naruto retrieve him.  All I've gathered is Sakura wants team 7 back together again, and she wants Sasuke to stop doing bad things.  There is no "romantic pursuit" here, nor in any of the pairings really.
> 
> Well, Hinata is actually the only one engaged in a pursuit of sorts.  Maybe Naruto if we assume confessing his feelings to Sakura is still on his to-do list.


I agree. Sakura never wanted to pursue Sasuke because she wants him back to the village to BE with him, but her love plays a large factor in her wanting him to not be eaten by hatred and revenge and be happy with Team 7 again. I mean friends always care about each other, but if it's a person you're romantically interested in, regardless of if you think you have a chance with them or not, theres a different kind of care there too. She hasn't pursued since early Part I, when she was her immature giddy self.

The only reason I believe Hinata may actually be pursuing Naruto is because she's gotten some kind of positive affectionate message from Naruto in the first place to make her think it's possible, not just some "I'm gonna get my man!!" kind of mindset. She doesn't seem like the kind of person to make such claims without something to back up her confidence, unless what she meant wasn't at all meant to be romantic in context. So ya I just don't think either HInata of Sakura will pursue without some positive message from Sasuke and Naruto giving them confidence. 

Regarding Naruto's confession, Naruto's response to Sai, was "how could I?...I can't even bring back the one she loves?" (that was it right XD?)
1. This sounds like it's Naruto still thinking largely about his promise to Sakura about saving Sasuke which he said had nothing to do with him saving Sasuke. However that doesn't mean it's still not important to him in another way I guess.
2. If Sasuke does become "good?" Sasuke, and Team 7 is together again, for what purpose would Naruto making a confession to a girl, when the guy she loves is on their side again?
3. Sakura's already been shown to be aware of Naruto having romantic feelings towards her, so that greatly eliminates the shock value.
-I personally don't see how it can be written well, but maybe Kishimoto has a way of writing it all deliciously sweet and sticky. What do you think? What would be a well-written confession from Naruto? 


PAWS said:


> How did they not have a bond? They trained together and were at each other's throat most of time but they both came around to being friends.


Canon wise it's undeniably true that they have a special bond. Kishimoto could've developed it much better in part I. There bond is strong, but I feel like the evidence for this is stated more than it was shown, which sucks since it's supposed to be basically one of the most important bonds in the entire manga.


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## Kage (Mar 10, 2014)

LesExit said:


> The only reason I believe Hinata may actually be pursuing Naruto is because she's gotten some kind of positive affectionate message from Naruto in the first place to make her think it's possible, not just some "I'm gonna get my man!!" kind of mindset. She doesn't seem like the kind of person to make such claims without something to back up her confidence, unless what she meant wasn't at all meant to be romantic in context.


_"I'm gonna get my man!!" kind of mindset_ is exactly what it seems like to me given how often she has to reassure herself. 

"Go forth without fear!" Hinata thinks to herself for seemingly no reason at all.

"I want to be by Naruto's side too..." Hinata mutters after Shikamaru mentioned wanting the same.


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## Kurama (Mar 10, 2014)

Kage said:


> _"I'm gonna get my man!!" kind of mindset_ is exactly what it seems like to me given how often she has to reassure herself.


Of course you'd think that way. Funny how you ignore the point that she would not act with such confidence without proper motivation, which Naruto has provided.



> "Go forth without fear!" Hinata thinks to herself for seemingly no reason at all.




No reason at all? Its the exact key to unlocking the last stage of 64 palms, and she used the handhold, correlating to her pushing forward without fear in pursuit of her desire to be with him, as motivation.



> "I want to be by Naruto's side too..." Hinata mutters after Shikamaru mentioned wanting the same.



You ignore the fact that these are sequences showing all of the rookies. This isn't her reassuring herself, its simply restating her intent.


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## Naiki (Mar 10, 2014)

Kage said:


> _"I'm gonna get my man!!" kind of mindset_ is exactly what it seems like to me given how often she has to reassure herself.
> 
> "_Go forth without fear!_" Hinata thinks to herself for seemingly no reason at all.
> 
> "_I want to be by Naruto's side too.._." Hinata mutters after Shikamaru mentioned wanting the same.



It's being misconstrued that Hinata's confidence in being by Naruto's side can be interpreted as  her trying to pursue Naruto romantically. Both of these clearly indicate that she doesn't mean 'standing' by his side romantically, but more in a comrade-like way. 

{x}{x} : In these two panels, Hinata draws strength from Naruto's confident smile, stating how Naruto is always working hard to move forward. She then states that she wants to stand by his side, which can easily mean that she wants to be by his side, working hard and moving forwards together in gaining strength and acknowledgement.

^ This is indirect proof that by Hinata saying that she wants to be at Naruto's side does not mean that she is romantically pursuing him. She means it in a platonic, camaraderie way. In my opinion, this is the height of Hinata's development.


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## Kurama (Mar 10, 2014)

^You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe she's strictly speaking as a comrade.


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## Naiki (Mar 10, 2014)

Kurama said:


> ^You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe she's strictly speaking as a comrade.



Prove me wrong then. You're just seeing something that isn't even there. We all wanna believe in fairy tales, but this isn't one.  Fairy tales and what we _want_ to believe don't connect with reality. 

You don't have proof that she is pursuing him romantically, yet I do that she doesn't with context from manga panels. Hinata's goal is to move forwards with Naruto, stand by his side and strive for strength and acknowledgement. That was the context of that panel, and that is what she meant. Not that she wants to be Naruto's lover or girlfriend.

Also, please explain to me how she goes from declaring that she wants to be by Naruto's side (romantically) to saying that she's going to go all of the way with 64 fists? Right, it doesn't make sense. She means that she wants to be by his side in camaraderie. That's the one that makes the most sense, the one that fits the context best and fits with Hinata's development as a character.

Since standing beside Naruto as equals in strength and working hard together is what she strives for and her standing by Naruto's side as a strong shinobi would mean that she has truly developed and been awarded what she has been striving to do all of this time.


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## Kage (Mar 10, 2014)

Naiki said:


> It's being misconstrued that Hinata's confidence in being by Naruto's side can be interpreted as  her trying to pursue Naruto romantically. Both of these clearly indicate that she doesn't mean 'standing' by his side romantically, but more in a comrade-like way.



Nah, what's being misconstrued for me is the idea that Hinata is spurred into kicking her advances into overdrive by some type of signal Naruto has given her (aka appreciating her help/support) that her efforts are not in vain.

I don't believe Naruto's suddenly felt the need to be _subtle_ about a potential love interest and I certainly don't believe Hinata's looking for just his companionship since she's already got that. Also her love confession should make it more than clear the kind of relationship with him she's interested in that she doesn't already have. Hence the constant (and I mean constant...) inner pep talks of _I wanna be by Naruto's side 4EvEr.._


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## Scila9 (Mar 10, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Regarding Naruto's confession, Naruto's response to Sai, was "how could I?...I can't even bring back the one she loves?" (that was it right XD?)



That wasn't it. Although the promise was to bring Sasuke back, the _point _of what he said wasn't about bringing back the one she loves. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



When Sai first flashbacks:

*Spoiler*: __ 








And again when he's about to make Sakura feel like crap:




It was simply about keeping his promises. To Naruto, his word means everything. Until he keeps it, he doesn't feel he has the right to tell Sakura that he loves her. Makes sense to me.

It goes back to what Kurama said about Naruto.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Naruto can say he'll bring Sasuke back all he wants, but none of it will mean anything until he actually does it. I think he's rather clear about it. He doesn't think a guy like him, who hasn't kept his word (which, again, is everything to Naruto) has the right to tell Sakura he loves her. If he loves her then he should be able to keep his promises to her. 

That's what I got from it.


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## Kage (Mar 10, 2014)

^And you would be absolutely correct.

Being a man of his word is indeed important to Naruto. His promise to Sakura has always been a matter strongly linked to his principles.


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## Naiki (Mar 10, 2014)

Kage said:


> Nah, what's being misconstrued for me is the idea that Hinata is spurred into kicking her advances into overdrive by some type of signal Naruto has given her (aka appreciating her help/support) that her efforts are not in vain.
> 
> I don't believe Naruto's suddenly felt the need to be _subtle_ about a potential love interest and I certainly don't believe Hinata's looking for just his companionship since she's already got that. Also her love confession should make it more than clear the kind of relationship with him she's interested in that she doesn't already have. Hence the constant (and I mean constant...) inner pep talks of _I wanna be by Naruto's side 4EvEr.._



Well, it's not just the idea that Naruto is spurring on her advance in technique because of this 'signal', but it's more because she wants to stand by Naruto's side in hard work and strength. She even states that she was always by his side, striving to work hard and become stronger, just as he has. 

Even in her confession, she states that she always used to cry and give up, but it was because of Naruto that she was able to go down the right path, {x}. She also goes on to say that Naruto showed her the right way through seeing him work hard and never give up, which changed her. {x}. Then, she goes on saying that she has always wanted to walk with him and she was always chasing after him (I'm guessing in terms of having guts and never giving up). This also further explains what she means when she says she wants to stand beside him, again, showing that it isn't necessarily romantic. 

Yes, Hinata is always motivated by Naruto to never give up and to keep pushing forwards which is what urges her to do her best. Her goal was never to be Naruto's girlfriend/lover, but her goal was to catch up to him and learn to never give up.

The Hinata ---> Naruto relationship does not have a romantic foundation. Her admiration for Naruto due to his guts and his perseverance eventually evolved into love, yes, but love or romance is not the foundation behind their relationship. So, Naruto is her beacon of confidence and her rock. That's pretty much the relationship between the two. 

What is spurring her on is that she wants to strive to do the best that she can, just as Naruto does. There is no 'signal' that Naruto secretly loves her spurring her on. What's spurring her on is Naruto, himself, and his drive to push forward. Just as it has always been. Just because Naruto has begun to acknowledge and respect her antics to become stronger doesn't mean that she's 'trying to get her man' because she's showing the drive to get stronger and protect Naruto just as she has always done. 

With that logic, you could say she was 'trying to get her man' when she jumped in to protect Naruto from Pein, and even then, Naruto had never showed her any respect and acknowledgement. So, that argument that she is acting in confidence believing that Naruto is beginning to become romantically interested in her is invalid. 

I do agree about Naruto not being subtle about Hinata. Naruto is pretty unsubtle about who he likes, if you ask me.


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## LesExit (Mar 10, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> That wasn't it. Although the promise was to bring Sasuke back, the _point _of what he said wasn't about bringing back the one she loves.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Naruto promised to bring him back, knowing fully that Sakura loved Sasuke. Hence to bring back the one she loves is his promise, which he was directly referring too. I don't really think we're disagreeing about anything there.

I don't get how much the promise really matters to Naruto at this point. I always thought it did a lot, but during Sakura's confession it really made me doubt it. Naruto straight up said that him helping Sasuke had nothing to do with his promise, that he truly just wanted to help Sasuke.  Like you said Naruto has been constantly stated to care about keeping his words, but the way he just brushed off the promise doesn't support him caring much about it. I think it's still important in some way, but Naruto basically said that whether the promise still existed or not between him and Sakura didn't matter anymore. So really is it that important at this point, that it's what's stopping Naruto from confessing? I really don't think so, but we'll see (｡･ω･)







Kishimoto has the strangest ways of building up platonic friendships of just admiration between a boy and a girl who we know has clear romantic affection towards him. Whatever, if the kind of affection displayed between Naruto and Hinata is how Kishimoto represents friendship then I think I'll survive with NS as long as we get panels of NH's friendship here and there (?∀｀)♡


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## Scila9 (Mar 10, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Naruto promised to bring him back, knowing fully that Sakura loved Sasuke. Hence to bring back the one she loves is his promise, which he was directly referring too. I don't really think we're disagreeing about anything there.



I think we were disagreeing on the point of his promise? I don't think bringing Sasuke back for Sakura was his biggest drive while chasing Sasuke.



> I don't get how much the promise really matters to Naruto at this point. I always thought it did a lot, but during Sakura's confession it really made me doubt it. Naruto straight up said that him helping Sasuke had nothing to do with his promise, that he truly just wanted to help Sasuke.  Like you said Naruto has been constantly stated to care about keeping his words, but the way he just brushed off the promise doesn't support him caring much about it. I think it's still important in some way, but Naruto basically said that whether the promise still existed or not between him and Sakura didn't matter anymore.



You bring up good points. This is how I think of it: The promise was _never_ just for Sakura. He did not make it solely for Sakura because he wanted to bring her beloved back to her. He promised himself as well. So when he says it doesn't matter if the promise still exists _between_ them, it doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all.

He said he'd bring Sasuke back (or die trying). He'll still want to keep his word even if it no longer matters to Sakura is what he's saying. 'Course it's not only to keep his word, but also the fact that he wants to help Sasuke. imo it always has been.

Those panels I showed were all pre-failfession. I do think that all of the events during the Kage Summit changed some things. That's why I'm not 100% sure Naruto will confess either, but if he wants to do it then I think that's the only thing holding him back. 

Overall, the elephant (Sasuke) in the room needs to be dealt with before any of these pairings go anywhere.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 11, 2014)

He originally had a drive to bring Sasuke back because of his promise, but that was null and void when people started trying to kill and go after Sasuke. He realized it was bigger than just a teammate's love triangle. 

He was a friend. A brother. It's already been stated by Naruto himself, it's not just about that promise anymore.

Also small side-note: I know it's fun to blow off steam and completely jump off topic to shit talk things that don't really matter, and though I'm not a mod/admin I can't really say anything...
But can we please stay the fuck on topic without shit talking and baiting every time we join? That'd be great. I enjoy debating with the few regulars such as Naiki, but when certain unnamed others come in here it becomes a bit hard to say much because all I see is unnecessary, pointless interpretations of things that don't really do anything but pluck nerves and cause trouble. 
It'd be greatly appreciated if this could stop, thanks very much.


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## Scila9 (Mar 11, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> He originally had a drive to bring Sasuke back because of his promise, but that was null and void when people started trying to kill and go after Sasuke. He realized it was bigger than just a teammate's love triangle.



I don't believe Naruto realized that after making the promise. I think it was bigger than that from the get-go for him. Before the Kage Summit and everything.

Chapter 451:
*Spoiler*: __ 




When Tazuna asks about it, Naruto replies as so:




It's always been more complicated than a love triangle and about more than getting Sasuke back for Sakura.

So! I was thinking about the failfession and all and I feel like I got a pretty good analogy to explain how I see it. I think about this crap way too much. I should be studying muscle anatomy right now 

Naruto Shippuden Ending 24, Goodbye Memory: 

Sakura is shown holding Naruto and Sasuke dolls. 
Near the end of it we see Naruto and Sakura dolls reflected in Naruto's eyes and then a Sasuke doll left fallen in the water (like it was dropped there).
Naruto then picks the Sasuke doll up and goes on his way.

Kage Summit Arc: 
Sakura is holding on to both Sasuke and Naruto. 
Sai comes around with good intentions and horrible social skills and indirectly tells her that holding onto both of them like that is causing Naruto a lot of pain. 
Sakura thinks about everything that's going on like Sasuke becoming an international criminal and Naruto understanding and being there for her through everything.
Sakura decides to let go of Sasuke (she drops his doll)
Naruto rightfully believes doing that is not what Sakura really wants (she'd regret it), so he picks the Sasuke doll back up (metaphorically still holding on to him) and continues on.

But even if Sakura hadn't been lying to herself about Sasuke, Naruto still wouldn't have given up. He's always had his own reasons that have nothing to do with Sakura.

Thoughts?


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## Naiki (Mar 11, 2014)

I think you made some legit points, The Webbstir ^. I actually agree that pursuing Sasuke became more than just his promise to Sakura, but more of his own merits. In fact, I think it was more than just the promise to Sakura to begin with. When he was fighting Sasuke at the VoD, he was having this monologue in his head about how he always wanted to be like Sasuke and how he was the first one to acknowledge him.  My take on it is that Naruto's own desire to pursue Sasuke has nothing to do with the promise he made to Sakura and it was like that from the beginning.

{x}, {x}

Naruto's own pursuit of Sasuke is based off of the bond he has with Sasuke as a brother.

Naruto's promise to Sakura was based off of Naruto's own romantic feelings for and understanding of Sakura. It would make sense for the promise to not have anything to do with Naruto's own pursuit of Sasuke, who he considers a brother. 

So, I agree that Naruto's own reasons have nothing to do with Sakura, and he stated so during the confession.  It's not that the promise doesn't mean anything, but simply it doesn't matter because Naruto is still going after Sasuke because 

1) Sasuke is like a brother to him
2) He doesn't want to sever those bonds with Sasuke, even if Sakura wants him to or not.


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## Scila9 (Mar 11, 2014)

^ Agreed. ...I think? I'm not sure. I guess I'm the only one here who thinks Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back isn't just for Sakura, but himself as well.

After looking back at Chapter 218

*Spoiler*: __ 











You can see that before the battle even starts Naruto reflects on why he wants to bring Sasuke back. We're shown how Sakura's depending on him, but much more emphasized is his own bond with Sasuke throughout Part 1.

By the end of that battle, at least, I think he applies that promise to himself just as much as to Sakura. He WILL bring Sasuke back no matter what is his thinking.


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## Naiki (Mar 11, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> ^ Agreed. ...I think? I'm not sure. I guess I'm the only one here who thinks Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back isn't just for Sakura, but himself as well.
> 
> After looking back at Chapter 218
> 
> ...



That's what I was saying. I agree completely that it isn't just about the promise that he made to Sakura. It's about himself as well. That's the reason why I posted those panels; to show that Naruto's bond with Sasuke is the sole reason of why he pursues him, not because of just Sakura.


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## Scila9 (Mar 11, 2014)

Naiki said:


> That's what I was saying. I agree completely that it isn't just about the promise that he made to Sakura. It's about himself as well. That's the reason why I posted those panels; to show that Naruto's bond with Sasuke is the sole reason of why he pursues him, not because of just Sakura.



 I think I get why I was confused now. Sorry if I'm wrong! 

Do you see it as two promises? One to Sakura (TPoaL) and one to himself. Both promises to bring Sasuke back for different reasons.

I see it as just one. To bring Sasuke back (TPoaL). One promise for both himself and Sakura. Take out the Sakura part and it still matters to Naruto.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 11, 2014)

I think he was already set on saving Sasuke, even before Sakura asked him to bring Sasuke back.


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## Naiki (Mar 11, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I think I get why I was confused now. Sorry if I'm wrong!
> 
> Do you see it as two promises? One to Sakura (TPoaL) and one to himself. Both promises to bring Sasuke back for different reasons.
> 
> I see it as just one. To bring Sasuke back (TPoaL). One promise for both himself and Sakura. Take out the Sakura part and it still matters to Naruto.




It can possibly be two promises since Naruto has sworn up and down that he will bring Sasuke back.  

The other promise being for Sakura, of course, where he will bring Sasuke back because of his love and understanding of her.


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## Naiki (Mar 11, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> I think he was already set on saving Sasuke, even before Sakura asked him to bring Sasuke back.



Perhaps. But, the implication would be that he was even more set on it when he saw Sakura bawling in front of him, and then it kind of deepened his resolve a bit.


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## LesExit (Mar 11, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I think I get why I was confused now. Sorry if I'm wrong!
> 
> Do you see it as two promises? One to Sakura (TPoaL) and one to himself. Both promises to bring Sasuke back for different reasons.
> 
> I see it as just one. To bring Sasuke back (TPoaL). One promise for both himself and Sakura. Take out the Sakura part and it still matters to Naruto.


So it's one promise that he's doing for the both of them? But then since he said that the promise between him and Sakura didn't matter anymore, and that he wanted to save Sasuke because _he_ wanted too...it makes it sound like before that the promise had to mainly do with Sakura in the first place? I think Naruto has always had the stone hard will to bring Sasuke back, I think the act is for the both of them, but the promise itself was mainly for Sakura. Or it could maybe be that the promise for both of them has always been there, but Sakura being in the equation just doesn't truly matter to him? lol I don't know what I'm saying


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## Scila9 (Mar 11, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> I think he was already set on saving Sasuke, even before Sakura asked him to bring Sasuke back.


*Nods* He was. As soon as Shikamaru told him what was up. TPaoL was just him saying it out loud/declaring it.



LesExit said:


> So it's one promise that he's doing for the both of them? But then since he said that the promise between him and Sakura didn't matter anymore, and that he wanted to save Sasuke because _he_ wanted too...it makes it sound like before that the promise had to mainly do with Sakura in the first place?


Unless you look at it the other way.



> I think Naruto has always had the stone hard will to bring Sasuke back, I think the act is for the both of them, but the promise itself was mainly for Sakura.


Does a promise always have to be spoken out loud? If so then yeah, the promise itself ( the declaration) was really just to assure Sakura.

What about a promise to yourself? It's not a promise until you tell yourself out loud? The definition of it does say a declaration... ...and I am thinking about this way too hard.



> *Or it could maybe be that the promise for both of them has always been there, but Sakura being in the equation just doesn't truly matter to him?* lol I don't know what I'm saying


*Shrugs* Yeah something like that



> I see it as just one. To bring Sasuke back (TPoaL). One promise for both himself and Sakura. *Take out the Sakura part and it still matters to Naruto.*


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 11, 2014)

Naiki said:


> Perhaps. But, the implication would be that he was even more set on it when he saw Sakura bawling in front of him, and then it kind of deepened his resolve a bit.



Of course. And he felt bad knowing that she loved him, so he was set on making her happy, even if it made him a bit miserable. But to be honest, I think all he wants is for her to be happy, I mean what good friend doesn't?


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## LesExit (Mar 11, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Unless you look at it the other way.


So it had to mainly do with naruto? WUt ?


> Does a promise always have to be spoken out loud? If so then yeah, the promise itself ( the declaration) was really just to assure Sakura.


No?


> What about a promise to yourself? It's not a promise until you tell yourself out loud? The definition of it does say a declaration... ...and I am thinking about this way too hard.


no...? 


> Someone needs to come in here and hardcore disagree with something! We're not even debating. Is it my fault? What's going on!?


Uhh...no!? I think? I'm honestly just confused by this


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## Scila9 (Mar 11, 2014)

LesExit said:


> So it had to mainly do with naruto? WUt ?


"The other way" you mentioned in your previous post.



> Or it could maybe be that the promise for both of them has always been there, but Sakura being in the equation just doesn't truly matter to him? lol I don't know what I'm saying



Except without the "just" and the "truly". So it doesn't imply the Sakura part doesn't matter at all. But basically yeah. Sakura or no Sakura, Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back still matters because of his nindo.

Is one way of looking at it.



> No?
> 
> no...?


Well you're no help.  Be more sure! 



> Uhh...no!? I think? I'm honestly just confused by this


Yeah I edited that out  It was before I saw all your posts. We all posted around the same time. I was confused myself for a while there.


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## Naiki (Mar 11, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Of course. And he felt bad knowing that she loved him, so he was set on making her happy, even if it made him a bit miserable. But to be honest, I think all he wants is for her to be happy, I mean what *good friend* doesn't?



Correct. 

He was doing it because he understood the pain of unrequited love. He was also doing it out of his romantic love for her. He loves her and he wants to see her happy, so bringing Sasuke back would warrant her happiness.


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## LesExit (Mar 11, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> "The other way" you mentioned in your previous post.


...um....ya O___o I'm just gonna say....ok :33 my brain today



> Except without the "just" and the "truly". So it doesn't imply the Sakura part doesn't matter at all. But basically yeah. Sakura or no Sakura, Naruto's promise to bring Sasuke back still matters because of his nindo.
> 
> Is one way of looking at it.


I think Naruto cares about Sakura wanting the promise too? Like...he cares about her caring about Sasuke and not giving up on him? ya I think the promise matters, but it isn't necessary for Naruto's goals, which I think makes it matter less...but I still think it matters. 


> Well you're no help.  Be more sure!


I wish I could be....but math class is so hard


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## Super Chief (Mar 25, 2014)

NaruHina is pretty much dead in the water by now. If NaruSaku ain't endgame at this point, then Kishimoto is trolling till the manga finally finishes for good.


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## emachina (Mar 25, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> NaruHina is pretty much dead in the water by now. If NaruSaku ain't endgame at this point, then Kishimoto is trolling till the manga finally finishes for good.





I fail to see how.


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## Super Chief (Mar 25, 2014)

emachina said:


> I fail to see how.



You wouldn't if you were being reasonable. Do you really think Kishi has set up everything the way he has without some kind of agenda as far as romance is concerned? If there wasn't any meaning behind it, why did he have Sakura accompany Naruto and Gaara to retrieve Yin Kurama? Why were we given that whole inner monologue and CPR scene? Why did he show Hinata fall and fail to reach Naruto? These things weren't just written for the heck of it or without forethought. It should be clear what Kishi's intentions are. All this adding to Minato's girlfriend remark and the obvious parallels of MinaKushi should paint a pretty good picture of what's to come.


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## emachina (Mar 25, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> You wouldn't if you were being reasonable. Do you really think Kishi has set up everything the way he has without some kind of agenda as far as romance is concerned? If there wasn't any meaning behind it, why did he have Sakura accompany Naruto and Gaara to retrieve Yin Kurama? Why were given that whole inner monologue and CPR scene? Why did he show Hinata fall and fail to reach Naruto? These things weren't just written for the heck of it or without forethought. It should be clear what Kishi's intentions are. All this adding to Minato's girlfriend remark and the obvious parallels of MinaKushi should paint a pretty good picture of what's to come.



Oh Lord, not another "I'm so rational" person. Why did Sakura accompany Naruto and Gaara? She's a medic. Does it have any deeper meaning in terms of romance? Maybe , maybe not . Based on what has been shown so far, I can't base a rational decision on  it.  Why was she given an inner monologue/CPR scene? My thought: she was keeping him alive and Kishi was trying to keep the tension up. It'd been pretty boring if Sakura just started CPR and did nothing else. Why did Hinata fail to be with Naruto? Plot convenience, maybe. If Hinata was there for all that's happened she'd be a useless third wheel in the situation and considering the intensity of the scene, that would be distracting from the drama Kishi was trying to develop. Could there be a deeper meaning? Sure. But for now, I side with plot convenience.

As for the girlfriend remark, I seriously fail to see how that negates the slap /face caress, hand holding, and the cover from the previous volume. But, that's just me. And if we're going to bring up the MinaKushi parallel, which is Sakura? Is she suppose to be Minato or Kushina? And vice versa , who is Naruto suppose to be? From what I've seen, Minato is closer to Hinata, what with having a crush  on an outcast Uzumaki with a demon fox in her belly who also had a tendency to watch said Uzumaki from afar.

So, rationally speaking, I don't see NaruHina as dead in the water. I'll never say it's guaranteed until the manga ends. But for now, it's not dead either.


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## Kage (Mar 25, 2014)

I think NaruHina's chances are about as fair as NaruSaku's at this point.

Having said that I don't understand the need to pigeonhole comparisons where they just don't belong (Hinata = Minato) not once has the story ever alluded to this and why this is the immediate response to the Sakura/Kushina comparison, one actually made in the manga, is beyond me.

This isn't pairing bingo.


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## Super Chief (Mar 25, 2014)

emachina said:


> Oh Lord, not another "I'm so rational" person. Why did Sakura accompany Naruto and Gaara? She's a medic. Does it have any deeper meaning in terms of romance? Maybe , maybe not . Based on what has been shown so far, I can't base a rational decision on  it.  Why was she given an inner monologue/CPR scene? My thought: she was keeping him alive and Kishi was trying to keep the tension up. It'd been pretty boring if Sakura just started CPR and did nothing else. Why did Hinata fail to be with Naruto? Plot convenience, maybe. If Hinata was there for all that's happened she'd be a useless third wheel in the situation and considering the intensity of the scene, that would be distracting from the drama Kishi was trying to develop. Could there be a deeper meaning? Sure. But for now, I side with plot convenience.
> 
> As for the girlfriend remark, I seriously fail to see how that negates the slap /face caress, hand holding, and the cover from the previous volume. But, that's just me. And if we're going to bring up the MinaKushi parallel, which is Sakura? Is she suppose to be Minato or Kushina? And vice versa , who is Naruto suppose to be? From what I've seen, Minato is closer to Hinata, what with having a crush  on an outcast Uzumaki with a demon fox in her belly who also had a tendency to watch said Uzumaki from afar.
> 
> So, rationally speaking, I don't see NaruHina as dead in the water. I'll never say it's guaranteed until the manga ends. But for now, it's not dead either.



You're missing the point. Sakura didn't have to be the one to keep Naruto alive. The entire CPR and inner monologue scene could have been omitted if Kishi wanted to. He could have decided that Shizune did have enough chakra and went instead of Sakura. He could have decided that Sakura stayed back to heal fodder nin. Hinata falling could have been omitted if he wanted to. 

Instead, Kishi wrote it the way he did. 

You can claim there's no meaning to any of it as much as you'd like, that's your prerogative, however, objectively speaking, there's obvious author intent and it sure as hell seems to be pushing the NaruSaku envelope.

Minato's girlfriend remark was as close as a "this is canon and it's happening" moment we've gotten. Hinata slapping Naruto out of his super (caress, really?) was emotional and sweet but there was little to no romantic connotations to it. Naruto was practically still holding to her cousin's dead body.

Naruto inherited quite a bit from both his parents, but when he's serious, he takes more after Minato than he does Kushina, who, by the way, wanted Naruto to find a girl like her. What's the first thing Minato thinks when he meets Sakura again? Oh, yeah. That she reminds him of his wife. Kishi couldn't have been any clearer about his intentions in that scene alone.

Hinata's personality bares little to no resemblance to Minato's. She's shy and quiet. Minato is confident and reserved. I've seen NaruHina fans try to force this comparison so hard it's hilarious and really just pointless since Kushina specifically stated Naruto should find a girl like her, not like his father. What few Hinata-Kushina comparison I've seen are at least just as weak.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 26, 2014)

You're really trying to stir shit huh chief? The fact is, until the manga is over, no one is in "good position" to be canon. So you can go somewhere with this "rationality" of yours, especially since you're bringing up unproven parallels, which, let's face it, should just be banned from the argument entirely as they're a theory.


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## emachina (Mar 26, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> You're missing the point. Sakura didn't have to be the one to keep Naruto alive. The entire CPR and inner monologue scene could have been omitted if Kishi wanted to. He could have decided that Shizune did have enough chakra and went instead of Sakura. He could have decided that Sakura stayed back to heal fodder nin. Hinata falling could have been omitted if he wanted to.
> 
> Instead, Kishi wrote it the way he did.



Okay, yes. Shizune could have gone instead of Sakura. But let's think about this in terms of storytelling, instead of pairing. If you were writing a story and you had a choice between using the main female lead like Sakura, or someone like Shizune who hasn't been relevant to the plot in over 300 chapters to be present during one the most important parts of the story's current arc, who would you pick to send along for the ride? 




> You can claim there's no meaning to any of it as much as you'd like, that's your prerogative, however, objectively speaking, there's obvious author intent and it sure as hell seems to be pushing the NaruSaku envelope.



Please be reasonable, and not put words into my mouth or project your attitude onto me. I never claimed there was no meaning behind Sakura going with Naruto. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I said there could be a deeper meaning behind it, but as of now, I do not see it.  And yes, that part is my prerogative.



> Minato's girlfriend remark was as close as a "this is canon and it's happening" moment we've gotten. Hinata slapping Naruto out of his super (caress, really?) was emotional and sweet but there was little to no romantic connotations to it. Naruto was practically still holding to her cousin's dead body..



That Minato part is really a stretch there, like I'm afraid you might hurt yourself you're stretching it so far out. That's the closest canon moment the series has got? There's was more substance when Yamamto called Sakura out in the beginning of P2 then the girlfriend comment. At least that wasn't turn into a comedy bit. And yes, caress. When someone slaps a person they don't normally leave their hands on the cheek of the person who received the slap. To me, it was a caress.



> Naruto inherited quite a bit from both his parents, but when he's serious, he takes more after Minato than he does Kushina, who, by the way, wanted Naruto to find a girl like her. What's the first thing Minato thinks when he meets Sakura again? Oh, yeah. That she reminds him of his wife. Kishi couldn't have been any clearer about his intentions in that scene alone..



When Naruto's serious he resembles Kushina as well, when she was fighting the kyuubi alongside Minato. She was just as composed and serious as Minato. Yes, Sakura reminded Minato of Kushina, but that was just one aspect of Kushina's personality. If you want to read into it, that's fine. But I don't see it as being super meaningful.



> Hinata's personality bares little to no resemblance to Minato's. She's shy and quiet. Minato is confident and reserved. I've seen NaruHina fans try to force this comparison so hard it's hilarious and really just pointless since Kushina specifically stated Naruto should find a girl like her, not like his father. What few Hinata-Kushina comparison I've seen are at least just as weak..



Naruto resembles his mother a lot more than he does Minato. The use of nonsense words at the end of his sentences being the most noticeable. And Kushina does tell Naruto to find a girl like his mother. Does that mean a girl like Sakura who punches him on the head a lot? Or someone willing to die to protect him out of love like Hinata? It can go both ways. And seeing as how I never compared Hinata to Kushina, I fail to see why you brought that up.


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## Xusasu Basasu (Mar 27, 2014)

Hello there, first time posting here, please be gentle. 



emachina said:


> Okay, yes. Shizune could have gone instead of Sakura. But let's think about this in terms of storytelling, instead of pairing. If you were writing a story and you had a choice between using the main female lead like Sakura, or someone like Shizune who hasn't been relevant to the plot in over 300 chapters to be present during one the most important parts of the story's current arc, who would you pick to send along for the ride?



I think what's interesting is Kishi drawing a parallel between Sakura and Karin both caring for and desperatly trying to save Naruto and Sasuke. It might not mean anything but you've got to admit it could easily be interpreted as something significant, as Kishi could have easily replaced Karin by Sakura and Sakura by Tsunade for ex. You could say that Sakura's status as the heroine means that she takes priority but it wouldn't be the first time she got upstaged by a secondary character. Afterall Hinata giving Naruto a pep talk after Neji's death can be interpreted as such. 




> Please be reasonable, and not put words into my mouth or project your attitude onto me. I never claimed there was no meaning behind Sakura going with Naruto. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I said there could be a deeper meaning behind it, but as of now, I do not see it.  And yes, that part is my prerogative.



That's a reasonable stance. I too think we won't be able to fully judge the significance of this scene before Naruto wakes up and interacts with Sakura. 




> That Minato part is really a stretch there, like I'm afraid you might hurt yourself you're stretching it so far out. That's the closest canon moment the series has got? There's was more substance when Yamamto called Sakura out in the beginning of P2 then the girlfriend comment. At least that wasn't turn into a comedy bit. And yes, caress. When someone slaps a person they don't normally leave their hands on the cheek of the person who received the slap. To me, it was a caress.



Ehh, I wouldn't say this was anything close to "canon", but it was a pretty big tease. I'm not fluent in Japanese so I don't know how reliable it is, but I've read on another forum that the line Minato tells Sakura about leaving his son in her capable hands is a formal Japanese phrase used by parents when meeting their son or daughter in law. As for Hinata's gesture, I'd call it a gentle slap. Sakura pretty much did the same a long time ago when she broke Naruto out of Itachi's genjutsu: 

Chapter 665




> When Naruto's serious he resembles Kushina as well, when she was fighting the kyuubi alongside Minato. She was just as composed and serious as Minato. Yes, Sakura reminded Minato of Kushina, but that was just one aspect of Kushina's personality. If you want to read into it, that's fine. But I don't see it as being super meaningful.



I'd say it starts being meaningful when added with the rest of that scene, with Minato thinking Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend, Naruto sort of agreeing, and Minato's final line. 



> Naruto resembles his mother a lot more than he does Minato. The use of nonsense words at the end of his sentences being the most noticeable. And Kushina does tell Naruto to find a girl like his mother. Does that mean a girl like Sakura who punches him on the head a lot? Or someone willing to die to protect him out of love like Hinata? It can go both ways. And seeing as how I never compared Hinata to Kushina, I fail to see why you brought that up.



I think if she meant "someone willing to die to protect him out of love" she'd have said just that. Or she could have said "find someone like your parents" because why leave Minato out of it if she was just talking about someone who was willing to die for Naruto's sake? Also something interesting about the comparison between Sakura and Kushina is that it seems Kishimoto likes his mothers/wives to be scary and domineering. There's Kushina obviously, but also Shikamaru and Kiba's moms, and he recently said in an interview his own wife was like that. Somehow I can't see Hinata ever being this type of character, or she'd need a pretty big change in personality.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Mar 28, 2014)

We'll probably know for sure when Naruto wakes up in the real world.


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## SoulFire (Mar 28, 2014)

Xusasu Basasu said:


> Hello there, first time posting here, please be gentle.



Hi! Welcome! New blood is always a good thing! 



> I think what's interesting is Kishi drawing a parallel between Sakura and Karin both caring for and desperatly trying to save Naruto and Sasuke. It might not mean anything but you've got to admit it could easily be interpreted as something significant, as Kishi could have easily replaced Karin by Sakura and Sakura by Tsunade for ex. You could say that Sakura's status as the heroine means that she takes priority but it wouldn't be the first time she got upstaged by a secondary character. Afterall Hinata giving Naruto a pep talk after Neji's death can be interpreted as such.



I don't think Kishi could easily have replaced Karin with Sakura, as she was far from Sasuke's location and completely unaware of his situation (she still is). I believe the positioning of Sakura with Naruto at this time (not Tsunade; certainly not Hinata) is Kishi's set up for future Team 7 action. Sakura is also accomplishing a goal that she has pursued since early in the story: She is saving Naruto and proving herself to be a useful member to a dear team mate.



> That's a reasonable stance. I too think we won't be able to fully judge the significance of this scene before Naruto wakes up and interacts with Sakura.



True. Though I have a feeling that Naruto is going to come to with Obito looming over him and jump up in defensive mode, perhaps using that new power he's supposed to get to defend what he perceives as the attack of an enemy and send Obito flying. 



> Ehh, I wouldn't say this was anything close to "canon", but it was a pretty big tease. I'm not fluent in Japanese so I don't know how reliable it is, but I've read on another forum that the line Minato tells Sakura about leaving his son in her capable hands is a formal Japanese phrase used by parents when meeting their son or daughter in law.



I'm inclined to see the girlfriend panels as more comic relief than big tease. It's a pretty light weight moment to pin one's pairing hopes on. I don't know how reliable the translation of Minato's words are, either--but I do know that he said something similar to Kakashi:

Either Sasuke wins and becomes a MADARA/ITACHI, or he loses and becomes an Izuna/Uchiha clan

It could just as likely be that when Minato asked Sakura to take care of his son he meant just that and nothing more.



> As for Hinata's gesture, I'd call it a gentle slap. Sakura pretty much did the same a long time ago when she broke Naruto out of Itachi's genjutsu.



There's a big difference in those two slaps. Sakura was releasing Naruto from a genjutsu with a slap. It ended there. Hinata, however, continued to cup Naruto's face in her hand after redirecting him with that slap, comforting him as she talked back his confidence. As a shared moment, those two scenes do not compare.



> I think if she meant "someone willing to die to protect him out of love" she'd have said just that. Or she could have said "find someone like your parents" because why leave Minato out of it if she was just talking about someone who was willing to die for Naruto's sake?



I'm a mom, myself. I think every mother wants her child to find someone who loves them as much as does she. That is what I think Kushina meant: Find someone who loves you unconditionally and with all of her heart, just like me. Makes much more sense than wanting her son to find a girl with her personality or looks. Kushina certainly doesn't appear to be that full of herself and shallow.



> Also something interesting about the comparison between Sakura and Kushina is that it seems Kishimoto likes his mothers/wives to be scary and domineering. There's Kushina obviously, but also Shikamaru and Kiba's moms, and he recently said in an interview his own wife was like that. Somehow I can't see Hinata ever being this type of character, or she'd need a pretty big change in personality.



I would agree that Kishi likes to indicate that mothers have a definite scary side that they show to their children. However, I've not seen any scary wife moments: Kurenai was not violent or scary with Asuma; Sasuke's parents by all appearances had a peaceful relationship; even Shikamaru's mother appeared to be more of a nag than anything else. Kiba's mother is the only married woman with indications that she may have scared her husband off--the only unsuccessful pairing because of possibly violent behavior. I've seen nothing to indicate that Kushina was violent with Minato, though her temper was something of which he was well aware and respected with awe.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 28, 2014)

Not to jump to conclusions but I think 631 pretty much made NS the closest to the finish line. 

Comical or not it still was a major hint, probably the biggest one since 297.


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## SoulFire (Mar 28, 2014)

Funny, I feel the same way about NaruHina's chances given what took place in Ch 615 (and referenced again with additional attention in Ch 634). It's all in the eye of the beholder, eh?


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 28, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Funny, I feel the same way about NaruHina's chances given what took place in Ch 615 (and referenced again with additional attention in Ch 634). It's all in the eye of the beholder, eh?


My thoughts exactly 
Fact is, we can all spew about who we _*THINK*_ is closer to canonization, but the fact is, we won't know until the end of the series.
Naruto could date Sakura, kiss her and be with her, but until the series ends, the fact is, nothing is canon.
Take DBZ for example: Bulma and Yamcha. They broke up. In comes Vegeta. Tada! They date, get married and have a son.
Canon is only canon when everything is set in stone.
Nothing is set in stone. Again, Naruto could date Sakura and kiss her, but unless the series ends off with that, it's not canon until the end. That being said, he could date her, break up, and run to Hinata. That's far fetched because this isn't romance though. Even so, let's wait till the end ok everyone? Until then, happy debating


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## Tom Servo (Mar 28, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Funny, I feel the same way about NaruHina's chances given what took place in Ch 615 (and referenced again with additional attention in Ch 634). It's all in the eye of the beholder, eh?



Different strokes for different folks.

Though hand holding to give her kyuubi chakra doesn't really seem to me like a moment atleast no more than 616 was felt like a NarutoxShikamaru moment


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## LesExit (Mar 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> Though hand holding to give her kyuubi chakra doesn't really seem to me like a moment atleast no more than 616 was felt like a NarutoxShikamaru moment


Ok this "the handhold had absolutely no more significance than Naruto patting Shikamaru's hand" argument." ....is just....so absolutely....awful. 

*Spoiler*: __ 











Just no. Debate whether or not it was romantic sure. However to put THAT^ at the same level
as this:
Shows a blatant lack of reading comprehension. That I honestly do not believe you truthfully logically in your mind believe what you said.

You really can't even begin to debate that what Naruto did to Shikamaru was the same as that moment he shared with Hinata. Their hand-hold was special to them and the development of their relationship. What kind of relationship that moment developed is up to you, and up for debate. However the emphasis of their hand hold-vs Naruto's quick gripping of Shikamaru's hand are not comparable. It's not a debate, you're just incorrect. This argument should never be brought up in a serious debate, _ever_.


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## SoulFire (Mar 29, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Ok this "the handhold had absolutely no more significance than Naruto patting Shikamaru's hand" argument." ....is just....so absolutely....awful.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Quite!! Naruto and Hinata shared a moment while holding hands. Before Naruto infused her with his chakra. With all others it was a quick slap-dash through the ranks done primarily by shadow clones while the real Naruto remained at Hinata's side.  A fast bro grasp with Shikamaru does not equal those panels of Naruto smiling into Hinata's eyes as he squeezes her hand.


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## Super Chief (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm not going to bother arguing now that the end is near. Once Naruto wakes up we'll know.


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## Kage (Mar 29, 2014)

There isn't a special name for the way he grabbed Shikamaru's hand just because it wasn't Hinata. :/  If Obito had taken Naruto's hand when he offered it he would have been holding it too and the gesture wouldn't be any more foreign just because some desire to put the word 'bro' in front of it.

You can argue the different circumstances/motives for each but even then there is no indisputable proof he took Hinata's hand for romantic reasons.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 29, 2014)

How about this? Naruto isn't a yaoi/boy love manga.
Case closed. You can argue it romantic or not, but making petty comparisons between same genders does not hold and ground in this argument.


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## Kage (Mar 29, 2014)

Lmao. You don't say.

Making petty comparisons between genders at all is the reason I brought it up in the first place. hand holding is called hand holding, BL/Yaoi manga or not. Sorry if that upsets you? but not really


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## LesExit (Mar 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> There isn't a special name for the way he grabbed Shikamaru's hand just because it wasn't Hinata. :/  If Obito had taken Naruto's hand when he offered it he would have been holding it too and the gesture wouldn't be any more foreign just because some desire to put the word 'bro' in front of it.
> 
> You can argue the different circumstances/motives for each but even then there is no indisputable proof he took Hinata's hand for romantic reasons.


Ya you can hold hands in many situations. You can hold hands with your little sister. You can hold hands with your girlfriend. You can tag someone in with a quick hand hold in the game.... the meaning of all three are different. How many people are gonna look at two people doing the last example and say they were holding hands? I'd see Naruto grabbing Obito's hand as a better example to call it hand-holding, since there'd probably be more focus on the hands between them. 


It's that Naruto and HInata's handhold was given emphasis and meaning beyond simply giving her chakra that really isn't debatable. With Naruto and Hinata the hand hold had it's own focus outside of any sharing of Chakra. If not we wouldn't have panels focusing on Naruto grabbing her hand or Hinata thinking back to an image of their hands, or her describing what it felt like to hold his hand, or a cover of them holding hands without any chakra cloak, the handhold between Naruto and Shikamaru did not have any focus beyond Naruto just giving him chakra.

Whether or not it was for _romantic reasons_ is debatable. Which is precisely what I was pointing out. Honestly if people can't look at those two character interactions and not tell that their is a major difference I honestly have no idea what to say


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## Kage (Mar 29, 2014)

It was just the principle of the matter since I'm well aware there are various circumstances and relationships in which hand holding takes part. MichaelInsanity is the one who presumed I was implying taking someone's hand at all apparently has romantic implications, hence the kind reminder that this is not a BL manga. Imagine my shock and disappointment  

As for the rest, There is a clear difference yes but so what? The comparison doesn't really spark my ire in the same way because I have yet to see that moment, as important as it was to NH's development in general, really rock Naruto's world the way it has, unsurprisingly, rocked Hinata's. Especially not romantically. *shrug*


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> Lmao. You don't say.
> 
> Making petty comparisons between genders at all is the reason I brought it up in the first place. hand holding is called hand holding, BL/Yaoi manga or not. Sorry if that upsets you? but not really



No, I have nothing against BL/Yaoi. To each their own, but the fact is, Naruto is neither. It's shonen, so as far as the manga is concerned, all that is shown (that we've seen) is straight coupling .-. don't take that as some form of hate, because it's not.


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## SoulFire (Mar 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> There isn't a special name for the way he grabbed Shikamaru's hand just because it wasn't Hinata. :/  If Obito had taken Naruto's hand when he offered it he would have been holding it too and the gesture wouldn't be any more foreign just because some desire to put the word 'bro' in front of it.
> 
> You can argue the different circumstances/motives for each but even then there is no indisputable proof he took Hinata's hand for romantic reasons.



When Naruto grabbed Shikamaru's hand it was lightning quick as the clone sped through the crowd, dispersing Naruto's chakra cloak but it was also more of a handshake, showing Naruto's closer relationship with him--most others were given a slap or a tap. Still, it took mere seconds. Naruto stood holding Hinata's hand with time enough to exchange glances with her and squeeze her fingers before transferring his chakra--and even after doing so he changed the way in which he held her hand, his own now palm to palm with hers. 

Naruto did not take Hinata's hand solely for romantic reasons--he obviously intended to share his chakra shroud. But the length of time he took and the way in which he did interact with her while holding it had a very romantic feel--emphasized by that exchanged glance and gentle squeeze of her fingers.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> When Naruto grabbed Shikamaru's hand it was lightning quick as the clone sped through the crowd, dispersing Naruto's chakra cloak but it was also more of a handshake, showing Naruto's closer relationship with him--most others were given a slap or a tap. Still, it took mere seconds. Naruto stood holding Hinata's hand with time enough to exchange glances with her and squeeze her fingers before transferring his chakra--and even after doing so he changed the way in which he held her hand, his own now palm to palm with hers.
> 
> Naruto did not take Hinata's hand solely for romantic reasons--he obviously intended to share his chakra shroud. But the length of time he took and the way in which he did interact with her while holding it had a very romantic feel--emphasized by that exchanged glance and gentle squeeze of her fingers.



Exactly. Idek why this is still being debated anymore. Like, this has significance. Kishimoto wouldn't make a fucking cover out of this shit if it WAS NOT SIGNIFICANT. You can argue the nature of it, but to say it was just chakra transfer is just repeated over done arguments on something already covered time and time again on this thread.


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## Kage (Mar 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> When Naruto grabbed Shikamaru's hand it was lightning quick as the clone sped through the crowd, dispersing Naruto's chakra cloak but it was also more of a handshake, showing Naruto's closer relationship with him--most others were given a slap or a tap. Still, it took mere seconds. Naruto stood holding Hinata's hand with time enough to exchange glances with her and squeeze her fingers before transferring his chakra--and even after doing so he changed the way in which he held her hand, his own now palm to palm with hers.
> 
> Naruto did not take Hinata's hand solely for romantic reasons--he obviously intended to share his chakra shroud. But the length of time he took and the way in which he did interact with her while holding it had a very romantic feel--emphasized by that exchanged glance and gentle squeeze of her fingers.



I don't have a problem with this explanation but the fact of the matter is no one else had a family member physically put themselves in harms way and _die_ literally right in front of Naruto and said related family member.

It was different for Naruto and Hinata simply because Neji was involved, as a result of such circumstances it was more personal.



MichaelInsanity said:


> No, I have nothing against BL/Yaoi. To each their own, but the fact is, Naruto is neither. It's shonen, so as far as the manga is concerned, all that is shown (that we've seen) is straight coupling .-. don't take that as some form of hate, because it's not.



The fact is whether this is a BL/Yaoi manga wasn't relevant to my point at all.  Even if there is only straight coupling in this manga it does in no way mean Naruto can't grab a girls hand without romantic implications.


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## SoulFire (Mar 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> I don't have a problem with this explanation but the fact of the matter is no one else had a family member physically put themselves in harms way and _die_ literally right in front of Naruto and said related family member.
> 
> It was different for Naruto and Hinata simply because Neji was involved, as a result of such circumstances it was more personal.



Everything that came before (Neji's death, Obito's mockery, Hinata's tnj) influenced Naruto and Hinata's interaction as they stood together. Just another step in their strengthening bond. Was it different solely because Neji was involved? Maybe...but maybe not.

Btw, that's quite a nice set--that Sasuko is a cutie!


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## LesExit (Mar 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> As for the rest, There is a clear difference yes but so what? The comparison doesn't really spark my ire in the same way because I have yet to see that moment, as important as it was to NH's development in general, really rock Naruto's world the way it has, unsurprisingly, rocked Hinata's. Especially not romantically. *shrug*


To me it's pretty obvious it did...who's world wouldn't be rocked by that...they'd have to have basically no emotions at all. I'm not even gonna argue about the romantic aspect of things.

The problem is Kishimoto revolves Hinata's character largely around Naruto, so whenever we see her it's going to have something to do with Naruto. Naruto as the main character has 20 things going on at once, most basically none of which are romantic, for this manga's main focus isn't romance at all. 

This manga takes incredibly large gaps in between romantic moments. Which I think reduces the quality of romance in this series, because it leaves things which in other stories would get a large focus, left open because theres more battles and explosions to happen and it feels strange as hell...

These two cases are just awful:

Girl sacrifices her life for you, tells you she loves you, then you don't go talk to her?? Nothing?

A girl confesses her love to you, you call her out on it, never gets brought up again. Really? No discussion on that at all?? Just whatever? 

The way Kishimoto handles things appears really careless towards how heavy these moments are...at least to me. Things don't have to be completely resolved, but how about some tiny amount of closure to these things? How about some kind of conversation?

It's just weird....


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## Tom Servo (Mar 29, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Ok this "the handhold had absolutely no more significance than Naruto patting Shikamaru's hand" argument." ....is just....so absolutely....awful.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



So which touched more of a nerve the fact that the hand holding lacked any other significance then to hand out his chakra or the fact that Naruto still views Hinata as a friend?


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## Kage (Mar 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Everything that came before (Neji's death, Obito's mockery, Hinata's tnj) influenced Naruto and Hinata's interaction as they stood together. Just another step in their strengthening bond. Was it different solely because Neji was involved? Maybe...but maybe not.
> 
> Btw, that's quite a nice set--that Sasuko is a cutie!



Ah but you can't be certain they would have held hands or even have Hinata come to Naruto's tnj rescue without Neji's death prompting it. Naruto thanked her properly as they stood together whereas before he was content to go on about how it wasn't cool to essentially be in her debt and reassure her that's she's strong. All very good and well but ultimately romantic? we'll just have to wait and see. 

Thank you 



LesExit said:


> To me it's pretty obvious it did...who's world wouldn't be rocked by that...they'd have to have basically no emotions at all. I'm not even gonna argue about the romantic aspect of things.
> 
> The problem is Kishimoto revolves Hinata's character largely around Naruto, so whenever we see her it's going to have something to do with Naruto. Naruto as the main character has 20 things going on at once, most basically none of which are romantic, for this manga's main focus isn't romance at all.
> 
> ...


Well the romantic aspect of things is where I'm not impressed so the scene overall has less impact in that regard.

I don't disagree with you and that's why the amount we do get in between the bulk of the plot is so heavily scrutinized. Contrary to popular belief the girls can't carry these ships alone which is part of the reason they end up looking bad.


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## LesExit (Mar 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> So which touched more of a nerve the fact that the hand holding lacked any other significance then to hand out his chakra or the fact that Naruto still views Hinata as a friend?


 I don't think either of those things are true so I'm not really upset. I feel pretty fine with the NH pairing for this manga. At the least it showed their strong bond, and thats pretty nice too.



Kage said:


> Well the romantic aspect of things is where I'm not impressed so the scene overall has less impact in that regard.
> 
> I don't disagree with you and that's why the amount we do get in between the bulk of the plot is so heavily scrutinized. Contrary to popular belief the girls can't carry these ships alone which is part of the reason they end up looking bad.


Whereas I see it as one of the strongest romantic moments in the manga. So we'll just disagree on that whatever, nothing to do but wait.

Yup...it's really bad how all the romance seems to fall on their shoulders. I don't think this is really going to change much though... well...It is what it is...


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## Mr Horrible (Mar 30, 2014)

Wait, are we seriously claiming that Naruto holding Hinata's hand means he reciprocates her feelings now?

You know NS has a bunch of this shit lying around don't you? You're going to have to argue that a hug is strictly platonic, whereas hand holding is romantic .


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## Xusasu Basasu (Mar 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hi! Welcome! New blood is always a good thing!



Thanks!




> I don't think Kishi could easily have replaced Karin with Sakura, as she was far from Sasuke's location and completely unaware of his situation (she still is). I believe the positioning of Sakura with Naruto at this time (not Tsunade; certainly not Hinata) is Kishi's set up for future Team 7 action. Sakura is also accomplishing a goal that she has pursued since early in the story: She is saving Naruto and proving herself to be a useful member to a dear team mate.



 But Sakura was far from Sasuke's location and unaware of the situation because Kishimoto made it so, that's my point. He could have written this differently.

Agreed about Sakura fulfilling one of her goals, but that still doesn't address the composition of chapter 662's final pages. That is definitely teasing from Kishimoto IMO, even if it might only be that. 


> True. Though I have a feeling that Naruto is going to come to with Obito looming over him and jump up in defensive mode, perhaps using that new power he's supposed to get to defend what he perceives as the attack of an enemy and send Obito flying.



I think Sakura should be the closest since she literally has her hand inside him. :rofl I think the scene will initially be comedic but the exchange between Naruto and Sakura after that will be telling. The way Naruto thanks Sakura and the way she reacts especially, this should be interesting.





> I'm inclined to see the girlfriend panels as more comic relief than big tease. It's a pretty light weight moment to pin one's pairing hopes on. I don't know how reliable the translation of Minato's words are, either--but I do know that he said something similar to Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 
> It could just as likely be that when Minato asked Sakura to take care of his son he meant just that and nothing more.



That's why I mentioned I wasn't sure of the translation because I hoped a Japanese speaker could clarify it. 

I don't like the comic relief argument used to discredit Naruto/Sakura's scenes because I feel like it's a standard that only applies for this pairing. Let's remember for example that the very first scene with Hinata in part 2 when she sees Naruto again after two years was entirely comic relief, but I'm sure it was still used (and rightly so) as a proof Hinata's feelings remained and fans celebrated. More recently Sasuke apologizing to Karin was also comic relief, but it doesn't mean it should be ignored and readers should act as if Karin didn't pine for the Sauce again. 

You might say that contrary to Naruto/Hinata and Sasuke/Karin there hasn't been a "serious" followup to comic relief scenes with Naruto/Sakura yet, but I don't think this argument is valid either because we've been given a justification in the story as to why Naruto hasn't pursued Sakura seriously (with a formal confession especially). You might choose to ignore it, but I don't think it's very wise.



> There's a big difference in those two slaps. Sakura was releasing Naruto from a genjutsu with a slap. It ended there. Hinata, however, continued to cup Naruto's face in her hand after redirecting him with that slap, comforting him as she talked back his confidence. As a shared moment, those two scenes do not compare.



I wasn't really trying to compare them, I was just commentating on the gesture itself, which I called a "gentle slap". The page I posted had the "slap" sound effect which made it pretty clear.  



> I'm a mom, myself. I think every mother wants her child to find someone who loves them as much as does she. That is what I think Kushina meant: Find someone who loves you unconditionally and with all of her heart, just like me. Makes much more sense than wanting her son to find a girl with her personality or looks. Kushina certainly doesn't appear to be that full of herself and shallow.



Maybe. That's certainly the most convenient interpretation for people who don't like the Naruto/Sakura pair especially after Minato directly comparing Sakura to Kushina. I have a hard time understanding the point of that scene if Kushina's words were meant to be understood that way though. 



> I would agree that Kishi likes to indicate that mothers have a definite scary side that they show to their children. However, I've not seen any scary wife moments: Kurenai was not violent or scary with Asuma; Sasuke's parents by all appearances had a peaceful relationship; even Shikamaru's mother appeared to be more of a nag than anything else. Kiba's mother is the only married woman with indications that she may have scared her husband off--the only unsuccessful pairing because of possibly violent behavior. I've seen nothing to indicate that Kushina was violent with Minato, though her temper was something of which he was well aware and respected with awe.



We haven't really seen anything of the Kurenai/Asuma relationship though. It's not like we were privy to the way they behaved together when no one was looking. Same with Sasuke's parents. Shikamaru said that his father was "constantly whipped" by his wife, or something like that. Kushina might not have been violent with Minato but it was implied she was the one wearing the pants in the relationship as she told Minato it was the first time he won an argument with her when he sealed the Kyuubi inside Naruto. 

I also don't think, if Sakura and Naruto got married, that Sakura would still punch his lights out. I'd think they would both have matured enough that Sakura would still be dominant and Naruto comically scared of her without physical violence having to take place. Generally speaking from my understanding the dominant housewife/mother is something that is common in Japanese society and in Asia at large. The father is supposed to be a provider and the one who's really the boss of the household is the mother. As I said, this isn't something I could see Hinata do, especially not with Naruto as a husband.


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## LesExit (Mar 30, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Wait, are we seriously claiming that Naruto holding Hinata's hand means he reciprocates her feelings now?
> 
> You know NS has a bunch of this shit lying around don't you? You're going to have to argue that a hug is strictly platonic, whereas hand holding is romantic .


As canon, *no*. Whether or not it is romantic is the debate. Whether or not Sakura hugging Naruto was out of her having romantic feelings for him is up for debate.

The difference in focus and meaning between Naruto and Hinata's handhold and to Naruto and Shikamaru's is what really isn't. You have to lack basic reading comprehension to think they're the same 

It's a waste of space argument and claim that needn't be brought up. That's the point. 
However of course argue whether or not it means Naruto returns romantic feelings if you want.


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## SoulFire (Mar 30, 2014)

Kage said:


> Ah but you can't be certain they would have held hands or even have Hinata come to Naruto's tnj rescue without Neji's death prompting it. Naruto thanked her properly as they stood together whereas before he was content to go on about how it wasn't cool to essentially be in her debt and reassure her that's she's strong. All very good and well but ultimately romantic? we'll just have to wait and see.



Kishi has been developing Naruto's relationship with Hinata throughout the war arc. Naruto is not 'in love' with Hinata, but he is showing interest and that interest is strengthening with each new interaction between them. I see his 'not cool' talk and his encouragement as his way of showing his interest to her (the other guys in her life were present for that exchange and definitely noticed that something was going on--which lead to Kiba's 'acting tough' tease later on). 



> Contrary to popular belief the girls can't carry these ships alone which is part of the reason they end up looking bad.



This is true, but romance has never been high on Kishi's list as far as his story goes. The guys will come around, but it's not a high priority as far as Kishi is concerned.



Mr Horrible said:


> Wait, are we seriously claiming that Naruto holding Hinata's hand means he reciprocates her feelings now?



No, it means that their bond is growing and quite possibly changing.  



Xusasu Basasu said:


> But Sakura was far from Sasuke's location and unaware of the situation because Kishimoto made it so, that's my point. He could have written this differently.



Right you are--Kishi has placed Sakura exactly where she needs to be as the focus shifts to the main characters (Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke, whom I'm sure will be joining them once he is back on his feet). It was time for Sakura to shine (finally!) and be useful as she has always wanted to be. Does it foreshadow a romantic revelation regarding Naruto--maybe, but I don't think so.



> Agreed about Sakura fulfilling one of her goals, but that still doesn't address the composition of chapter 662's final pages. That is definitely teasing from Kishimoto IMO, even if it might only be that.



Kishi is known to tease, so I'm not surprised with that. That is a given. 



> I think Sakura should be the closest since she literally has her hand inside him. :rofl I think the scene will initially be comedic but the exchange between Naruto and Sakura after that will be telling. The way Naruto thanks Sakura and the way she reacts especially, this should be interesting.



I don't expect Sakura's hand to still be in Naruto's chest cavity by the time he awakens. And Obito is standing over them, so he definitely will be in Naruto's view as he comes to. I think he's gonna freak out and immediately defend himself. Should be an interesting scene, whatever happens. 



> That's why I mentioned I wasn't sure of the translation because I hoped a Japanese speaker could clarify it.



Yeah! Sometimes things just don't come across clearly from one language to another. 



> I don't like the comic relief argument used to discredit Naruto/Sakura's scenes because I feel like it's a standard that only applies for this pairing. Let's remember for example that the very first scene with Hinata in part 2 when she sees Naruto again after two years was entirely comic relief, but I'm sure it was still used (and rightly so) as a proof Hinata's feelings remained and fans celebrated. More recently Sasuke apologizing to Karin was also comic relief, but it doesn't mean it should be ignored and readers should act as if Karin didn't pine for the Sauce again.



It is true that quite a bit of Naruto's interaction with Sakura tends to be about comic relief. However, Sakura has had similar behavior with other characters as  well--her bouts of temper are not focused solely on Naruto. She will tear into anyone who annoys her, and usually to create a funny scene. 

I see Hinata's faint in her first appearance in part two (and her first and only faint in the entire manga) as an homage to the anime team as much it was a humorous scene. Considering that this was the first time that Hinata had seen the more grown up (and good looking ) Naruto literally eye to eye with her, it was more than she expected or could take at the time.  

Sasuke's abrupt and emotionless 'sorry' to Karin, her hop back on the fangirl wagon and his dismayed (somewhat horrified) expression was a hot mess, imo. More funny strange than funny haha. I simply cannot take that pairing seriously.



> You might say that contrary to Naruto/Hinata and Sasuke/Karin there hasn't been a "serious" followup to comic relief scenes with Naruto/Sakura yet, but I don't think this argument is valid either because we've been given a justification in the story as to why Naruto hasn't pursued Sakura seriously (with a formal confession especially). You might choose to ignore it, but I don't think it's very wise.



I find that Naruto's words in answer to Sakura's confession nullify previously given (per second party) justifications for his lack of pursuit of her love. What I can't ignore is that long ago he realized that her heart belonged to another (and that _just perhaps_ there were some reciprocal feelings going on there) and that he accepted it and backed off. 



> Maybe. That's certainly the most convenient interpretation for people who don't like the Naruto/Sakura pair especially after Minato directly comparing Sakura to Kushina. I have a hard time understanding the point of that scene if Kushina's words were meant to be understood that way though.



I see it more as the most logical interpretation of what a mother wishes for her child: To find someone who loves him as much as does she. I have a hard time trying to read her meaning in any other way.



> We haven't really seen anything of the Kurenai/Asuma relationship though. It's not like we were privy to the way they behaved together when no one was looking. Same with Sasuke's parents. Shikamaru said that his father was "constantly whipped" by his wife, or something like that. Kushina might not have been violent with Minato but it was implied she was the one wearing the pants in the relationship as she told Minato it was the first time he won an argument with her when he sealed the Kyuubi inside Naruto.



Quite right--we've seen no real evidence of humorous violence in any of the successful canon pairings. Add Tsunade/Dan and Yahiko/Kanon to the list. Shikaku may have been a 'henpecked husband', but we never got the inkling that his wife raised a fist to him, even if she wore the pants in the family. As for Kushina, she was as headstrong a personality as is Naruto, so I expect that she did get her way much of the time with the more easy going and diplomatic Minato.



> Generally speaking from my understanding the dominant housewife/mother is something that is common in Japanese society and in Asia at large. The father is supposed to be a provider and the one who's really the boss of the household is the mother. As I said, this isn't something I could see Hinata do, especially not with Naruto as a husband.



Oh, I can see Hinata taking charge, but in her own quiet, reasoning way. She has disagreed with Naruto more than once within the series and has turned him around to see things differently. She has the chops. Beneath that reticent exterior is a backbone of steel.


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## Lady Hinata (Mar 30, 2014)

> *Xusasu Basasu*
> Maybe. That's certainly the most convenient interpretation for people who don't like the Naruto/Sakura pair especially after Minato directly comparing Sakura to☻Kushina. I have a hard time understanding the point of that scene if Kushina's words were meant to be understood that way though.☻


The context of that scene is  Kushina giving all the advice she wouldn't be able to give him throughout the course of his life, because she was _dying_. 

She was saying all the things she'd never get to tell him. Eat right, do your best in school, make friends, listen to your teachers. And yes, love advice. A mother wants what is best for her child, and what better advice than to ask her son to find someone like her. To me, it makes more sense to ask that he find soneone who loves him as much as she does because I honestly do not see why Kushina would ask such a tall order of her son. 

To find someone like her in personality, as opposed to letting Naruto decide what kind of personality _he_ likes most, while just making sure the girl is genuine about her feelings, loving him as much as a mother would love her son. To me, that advice is something I can see a mother saying because what would possess Kushina to believe that the only kind of girl who would ever be good enough for her son, is someone who is like her in personality? 

I just don't see her saying something like that. The way I view her advice, it doesn't discriminate against _either_ girl. Which I think is good because I really do not believe Kushina would say that, she would be happy with either girl so long as her son was genuinely loved. 

And if we add onto this advice a translation a reliable source decoded, Kushina says do not fall for bad women, find someone like me. Which only makes this advice even more open, again which is good because it leaves Naruto with a choice in _his_ type of woman, while keeping in mind to find a genuine woman. To me, that is very good advice a mother would say.  (Though as I am not a Japanese speaker myself, this is up for debate.) Either way, my overall point is still the same.


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## LesExit (Mar 30, 2014)

Lady Hinata said:


> I just don't see her saying something like that. The way I view her advice, it doesn't discriminate against _either_ girl. Which I think is good because I really do not believe Kushina would say that, she would be happy with either girl so long as her son was genuinely loved.


ya, the entire argument that Kushina meant find someone with a similar personality to me...paints Kushina in an awful light. All she wants is for her son to be with someone nice and loves him like she does. 

If Hinata or Sakura meet those requirements, then I'm pretty sure Kushina would love them too


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## Kage (Mar 30, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Kishi has been developing Naruto's relationship with Hinata throughout the war arc. Naruto is not 'in love' with Hinata, but he is showing interest and that interest is strengthening with each new interaction between them. I see his 'not cool' talk and his encouragement as his way of showing his interest to her (the other guys in her life were present for that exchange and definitely noticed that something was going on--which lead to Kiba's 'acting tough' tease later on).


Naruto is not the kind of guy who is subtle about such an interest so if this is meant to hint at one it's not very convincing. The 'not cool' comment seems more like an issue of his pride (Naruto is definitely not a stranger there even if he rarely let's it get the best of him) and the tease was pretty much ignored by Naruto. Plus it's Kiba, he takes shots at Naruto whenever he can.



SoulFire! said:


> This is true, but romance has never been high on Kishi's list as far as his story goes. The guys will come around, but it's not a high priority as far as Kishi is concerned.


Romance not being high on the list of priorities should only emphasize why the guys *never* have to eventually _come around_ for the sake of the girls.


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## LesExit (Mar 30, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto is not the kind of guy who is subtle about such an interest so if this is meant to hint at one it's not very convincing. The 'not cool' comment seems more like an issue of his pride (Naruto is definitely not a stranger there even if he rarely let's it get the best of him) and the tease was pretty much ignored by Naruto. Plus it's Kiba, he takes shots at Naruto whenever he can.


Ya but when have they ever involved another girl....Hinata? Do you think Kiba was just pulling a random tease out of nowhere, like hmm let me just pick a random girl who's here and tease Naruto about acting tough in front of them? Don't you think something(the last time Kiba saw Naruto interact with Hinata) convinced him that that tease was of some value?

I think it's significant because I think it shows that some part of the "in your eyes" moment between Naruto and Hinata, gave Kiba the impression that there were some type of feelings _from Naruto_ to Hinata. 

Maybe it was just a useless moment, however as of now I honestly see it as evidence of Naruto returning Hinata's feelings. 

If NH doesn't happen, guess we'll all have to except Kiba's just a random insulting jerk and bad at reading interactions XD


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## Kage (Mar 30, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Ya but when have they ever involved another girl....Hinata? Do you think Kiba was just pulling a random tease out of nowhere, like hmm let me just pick a random girl who's here and tease Naruto about acting tough in front of them? Don't you think something(the last time Kiba saw Naruto interact with Hinata) convinced him that that tease was of some value?
> 
> I think it's significant because I think it shows that some part of the "in your eyes" moment between Naruto and Hinata, gave Kiba the impression that there were some type of feelings _from Naruto_ to Hinata.
> 
> ...


I think he threw Naruto's own words back at him for the sake of ribbing him. He was there when Naruto rescued Hinata and told her it wouldn't be very cool of him to let her always protect him after all.

For Kiba to supposedly hint at what Naruto is feeling after several other characters hint at his feelings for someone else? After Naruto himself, arguably I guess, even still shows an interest in someone else?

Seems awfully convenient to dismiss the latter and bet all your chips on the former. 

And if it does happen I still stand my ground that it wasn't done very well  Not like I'm expecting quality no matter the outcome anyway...>_>


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## LesExit (Mar 30, 2014)

Kage said:


> Seems awfully convenient to dismiss the latter and bet all your chips on the former.
> 
> And if it does happen I still stand my ground that it wasn't done very well  Not like I'm expecting quality no matter the outcome anyway...>_>


I think you can say that both ways until what it actually means is proven o_____O??

ya it just....is what it is I guess. If NH happens I'm sure I'll be happy, but I'll probably think of hundreds of things that would've made it better. Kishi could've handled romance so much better....oh well


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## SoulFire (Mar 30, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto is not the kind of guy who is subtle about such an interest so if this is meant to hint at one it's not very convincing.


Naruto has never before encountered a girl bearing serious feelings about him--he just may react differently when faced with such knowledge. Hinata has always been the one with whom he drops his ultra confident act and I see the 'eyes' encounter as his way of 'testing the waters', so to speak. In other words, he's taking it slow, but letting her know that he's not opposed to the idea.



> Romance not being high on the list of priorities should only emphasize why the guys *never* have to eventually _come around_ for the sake of the girls.



Oh, I think Kishi will produce pairings by story's end. He has even said that at least one pairing would take place. 



Kage said:


> I think he threw Naruto's own words back at him for the sake of ribbing him. He was there when Naruto rescued Hinata and told her it wouldn't be very cool of him to let her always protect him after all. The 'not cool' comment seems more like an issue of his pride (Naruto is definitely not a stranger there even if he rarely let's it get the best of him) and the tease was pretty much ignored by Naruto.



Kiba was definitely ribbing Naruto, but I doubt that he would ever do that at Hinata's expense, and she was within earshot. As far as Naruto's lack of reaction--he was focused on the coming fight, not on teasing remarks (though I do think it possible that his 'yeah!' was in answer to Hinata's question on the previous page). 

Naruto had no reason to feel that his pride had been hurt by Hinata's previous actions against Pain--he was reassuring her with his words, diffusing any trepidation she may have felt and adding a touch of machismo.



> For Kiba to supposedly hint at what Naruto is feeling after several other characters hint at his feelings for someone else? After Naruto himself, arguably I guess, even still shows an interest in someone else? Seems awfully convenient to dismiss the latter and bet all your chips on the former.



Any other 'hints' regarding Naruto's feelings toward Sakura have taken place much farther back in the story. Quite a bit has happened since then to bring into question just how strong those feelings continue to be. Naruto, himself has shown no _serious _interest or pursuit of her in some time. That said, one cannot dismiss the possibility of any pairing, as Kishi can well do as he pleases in the end.


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## Mr Horrible (Mar 30, 2014)

LesExit said:


> As canon, *no*. Whether or not it is romantic is the debate. Whether or not Sakura hugging Naruto was out of her having romantic feelings for him is up for debate.



I agree, I just think you're going to have trouble saying handholding is romantic while the hug was not. 



SoulFire! said:


> No, it means that their bond is growing and quite possibly changing.



Doesn't really fit with the Sakura-girlfriend joke though does it?



LesExit said:


> ya, the entire argument that Kushina meant find someone with a similar personality to me...paints Kushina in an awful light. All she wants is for her son to be with someone nice and loves him like she does.
> 
> If Hinata or Sakura meet those requirements, then I'm pretty sure Kushina would love them too



This seems like mental gymnastics to me, simpler solutions are usually better ones.


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## Michael Senpai (Mar 31, 2014)

Can I just ask:
What is the point of being in this thread if you're just going to discount all ships? There isn't one.

Anyway, the Kiba comment was omitted from the manga, if I'm not mistaken, so it's not really applicable, as much as I'd like it to be.


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## Xusasu Basasu (Mar 31, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Right you are--Kishi has placed Sakura exactly where she needs to be as the focus shifts to the main characters (Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke, whom I'm sure will be joining them once he is back on his feet). It was time for Sakura to shine (finally!) and be useful as she has always wanted to be. Does it foreshadow a romantic revelation regarding Naruto--maybe, but I don't think so.



As I said, the focus shifting to the main characters could have been achieved with Sakura being at Sasuke's side while Naruto survives in a different way. I don't necessarily think it'll result in a "romantic revelation", my point has more to do with the way that situation portrays Sakura taking Naruto's side so to speak while Sasuke gets helped by Oro and his goons. Sakura supporting Naruto's dream that way is also particularly significant, especially after learning Sasuke wanted to become hokage too. 





> It is true that quite a bit of Naruto's interaction with Sakura tends to be about comic relief. However, Sakura has had similar behavior with other characters as  well--her bouts of temper are not focused solely on Naruto. She will tear into anyone who annoys her, and usually to create a funny scene.
> 
> I see Hinata's faint in her first appearance in part two (and her first and only faint in the entire manga) as an homage to the anime team as much it was a humorous scene. Considering that this was the first time that Hinata had seen the more grown up (and good looking ) Naruto literally eye to eye with her, it was more than she expected or could take at the time.
> 
> Sasuke's abrupt and emotionless 'sorry' to Karin, her hop back on the fangirl wagon and his dismayed (somewhat horrified) expression was a hot mess, imo. More funny strange than funny haha. I simply cannot take that pairing seriously.



It is a mess yes, but the point remains: Sasuke/Karin having a lot of comic relief scenes (even before that thank you, most of Karin's interactions with Sasuke had her behaving like a horny, deranged fangirl) doesn't make the more serious portrayals of Karin's "love" irrelevant. For ex Karin bursting into tears when she realizes Sasuke is dying, or being so desperate to save him she awakens Uzumaki chakra chains and destroys that big wooden monster are completely serious scenes.

My point is a pair having comic relief scenes doesn't mean the author expects the readers to act as if they never happened, especially as Naruto is a shounen manga, and romance tends to be portrayed in a rather humorous and lighthearted way in this type of story: there's an entire subgenre of shounen called "pantsu" or "harem" where romantic interactions consist of funny misunderstandings ending up with the loser main character getting beaten up for his troubles.




> I find that Naruto's words in answer to Sakura's confession nullify previously given (per second party) justifications for his lack of pursuit of her love. What I can't ignore is that long ago he realized that her heart belonged to another (and that _just perhaps_ there were some reciprocal feelings going on there) and that he accepted it and backed off.



I don't think Naruto's answer to Sakura's fake confession means anything except that he was (understandably) angry at her at the time. I doubt you could convince anyone he truly hates Sakura, especially as in the same scene Sakura asks him something like "if you don't like me say so" and he doesn't reply. This seems like a very underwhelming way to give closure to the main character's feelings, so I'm pretty sure it'll be further explored in the future.

The interpretation that Naruto gave up on Sakura entirely and backed off is also contradicted by the numerous instances in part 2 where he shows romantic interest in her. Again I know this is ignored because it's "comic relief" but as I've shown earlier I don't consider it a valid rebuttal. Naruto's answer to Sai is also inconsistent with this interpretation, as a more fitting reply would have been "how could I? She loves someone else". Instead his reply implies he hasn't completely given up (which makes perfect sense as this is Naruto we're talking about) and at least wants to properly confess to her once he's kept his promise.




> I see it more as the most logical interpretation of what a mother wishes for her child: To find someone who loves him as much as does she. I have a hard time trying to read her meaning in any other way.



My interpretation is based on the fact in the same monologue she tells Naruto not to fall for a "weird woman". The context is her talking about personality, the type of woman Naruto should pursue. The way I see it, "find a woman who loves you like I do" is needlessly complicating it and contradicting Occam's Razor. You might say it's shallow from her but I don't see how, it simply seems to me she's proud of who she is and knows she's a good woman. 





> Quite right--we've seen no real evidence of humorous violence in any of the successful canon pairings. Add Tsunade/Dan and Yahiko/Kanon to the list. Shikaku may have been a 'henpecked husband', but we never got the inkling that his wife raised a fist to him, even if she wore the pants in the family. As for Kushina, she was as headstrong a personality as is Naruto, so I expect that she did get her way much of the time with the more easy going and diplomatic Minato.



You're comparing things that are just not comparable. Naruto and Sakura have interacted on panel for the majority of the 670 chapters of this manga, while "successful canon pairings" have had maybe a couple panels dedicated to them in 15 years of publication. You're also making a leap in logic IMO when you imply that these canon pairings were successful because they had no physical violence, while this physical violence is simply the exaggerated, mostly light hearted portrayal of a dynamic that is common to a lot of these couples: a dominant woman and a whipped man. 




> Oh, I can see Hinata taking charge, but in her own quiet, reasoning way. She has disagreed with Naruto more than once within the series and has turned him around to see things differently. She has the chops. Beneath that reticent exterior is a backbone of steel.



I don't see it. She's not as meek as some people try to portray her that's true, but I could never see her becoming that "scary mom" Kishimoto likes to mention quite often lately without her personality drastically changing.


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## Naiki (Mar 31, 2014)

I'm sure that if Naruto were developing any type of romantic interest in Hinata at this point, then we would have definitely known it. Naruto is not a subtle guy when it comes to how he feels about girls. His interactions with Sakura should be a perfect example of that. 

Naruto does not interact with Hinata in the same light that he interacts with Sakura that lets us know that he is interested in her romantically. On top of that, once again, it was reiterated that he still thinks of Sakura only in that romantic light *with* Hinata in close proximity.  

I don't understand why this is still up for a debate. After that girlfriend incident, I'm still questioning why people are still arguing this idea that Naruto is considering Hinata in some type of way. If he were 'considering her', he wouldn't have been so precise in his answer to Sakura being his girlfriend. If he is so open to relationships and testing the water like some are claiming, then he would be shying away from the idea of Sakura being his girl and would be exploring other options other than Sakura. 

But, he hasn't.  Instead, he expressed acceptance to the idea of Sakura being his girl.

Is that the answer of someone 'testing the waters'? If anything, he's testing the waters with Sakura. 

"More or less" equates to exactly that. 

Even still, if Kishimoto were truly going in the direction of Naruto 'considering' or 'testing the waters with Hinata', then he wouldn't have set it up for Sakura to be the first one he sees when he wakes up with her by his side. That is the set up for a possible NS moment between them. 

Where this is going is painfully obvious. 

Naruto and Hinata have no where near enough development for this to work. It's too close to the end where the characters normally come to a conclusion about their feelings, and so far, the light casted on Hinata from Naruto's perspective hasn't changed from part one except for having garnered a newly discovered respect for her courage and strength. Earning Naruto's respect and acknowledgement is what Hinata's character was made for. That was what she wanted the most and that is what she got, in my opinion.

From the beginning, she has wanted Naruto's acknowledgement and respect, not his love. After all, that was what her character development was for. Hinata has never expressed the desire to be his lover/girlfriend, but rather to catch up to him. She had already done that and that's all there is to her character.


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## LesExit (Mar 31, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Can I just ask:
> What is the point of being in this thread if you're just going to discount all ships? There isn't one.
> 
> Anyway, the Kiba comment was omitted from the manga, if I'm not mistaken, so it's not really applicable, as much as I'd like it to be.


Well if you want to debate that they all seem illogical and have little chance I guess? Do you have to debate in favor of a pairing, or is their like an Anti-NS,NH,SS debate thread? lol idk.

Logically I still think NH has the highest chance to come out canon. That doesn't mean I think It'll be perfect. I hope it satisfies me fully, but I'm not sure what Kishimoto is going to do, I'll have to wait and see. Thus far I've been pretty satisfied with their moments, of course I have criticisms, but I have to remind myself the main focus of this manga isn't romance so.

Alright then forget it XD???



Mr Horrible said:


> I agree, I just think you're going to have trouble saying handholding is romantic while the hug was not.


I could say the same with you about hand-holding. Everyone's bias, just a part of life. If NS happens, I'll accept that that hug was Kishimoto showing Sakura's developing romantic feelings for Naruto sure.


> This seems like mental gymnastics to me, simpler solutions are usually better ones.


I think it's mental gymnastics for one to take her words as mother and thing she meant for Naruto to find a girl like her...who can be loud, aggressive, and has pink, red hair? idk??

Instead of very simply meaning find a girl who's kind and loves you, like any mother would want. I don't know how that's more complex....unless Kushina's some superficial women, that appears the most logical, and works in favor of both girls.

Also even if that's what she wanted, Naruto doesn't have to listen....it's his relationship. I don't get why Kishimoto didn't have Naruto comment on that advice, I mean he could've said ya mom I've found this girl...and she can be really scary like you sometimes, but she has a sweet side too :3 Or thanks mom the thing is lately I've been having feelings towards a girl who's courage and ability to love reminds me of your own. Though if he did that, than he wouldn't be able to milk the pairings out much more. Soooo probably better as a writer he didn't XD


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## Kage (Mar 31, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I think you can say that both ways until what it actually means is proven o_____O??
> 
> ya it just....is what it is I guess. If NH happens I'm sure I'll be happy, but I'll probably think of hundreds of things that would've made it better. Kishi could've handled romance so much better....oh well



That it's convenient to bet all your chips on multiple examples rather than dismiss a single one?? 





SoulFire! said:


> Naruto has never before encountered a girl bearing serious feelings about him--he just may react differently when faced with such knowledge. Hinata has always been the one with whom he drops his ultra confident act and I see the 'eyes' encounter as his way of 'testing the waters', so to speak. In other words, he's taking it slow, but letting her know that he's not opposed to the idea.


? by all rights 'testing the waters' should of happened after Hinata's confession. To say there wasn't any time for that would just be untrue because _during a war _ isn't anymore of an appropriate time to ruminate over these things. The 'eyes' encounter is a reminder; he hasn't forgotten what she's done for him and so has been nothing but kind when addressing her (not that he would have been mean otherwise) Even so, he has yet to dwell on the romantic aspect of her confession or even show clear signs of being interested in that kind of a relationship with her. 

Again, Naruto, a character who is very expressive being so subdued about something like love when he practically _glowed_ upon hearing his mother tell him she loves him, doesn't seem right. He shouldn't want to tip toe around this.




SoulFire! said:


> Oh, I think Kishi will produce pairings by story's end. He has even said that at least one pairing would take place.


Can't say I would be too disappointed if he didn't. He has also admitted (a lot more recently too) to having a tendency to not plan ahead  It's the reason he writes himself into nice little corners and instead of trying to sort out the mess he's made with pairings, which is not high on the list of priorities anyway, he can very well decide to abandon all ships.



SoulFire! said:


> Kiba was definitely ribbing Naruto, but I doubt that he would ever do that at Hinata's expense, and she was within earshot. As far as Naruto's lack of reaction--he was focused on the coming fight, not on teasing remarks (though I do think it possible that his 'yeah!' was in answer to Hinata's question on the previous page).


Why would it be at Hinata's expense when it's clearly meant to be a jab at Naruto regardless???

No matter what you believe Kiba wouldn't mention her to be cruel or even petty but her conversation with Naruto before did give him an opening.

Naruto's lack of reaction could just as well mean he didn't care. It wouldn't be very Naruto-like to not get a little riled over such things though.

I believe the word used was 'おっす' or 'ossu!' which is both a greeting and a type of war cry if you will. Either way it works best as a response to his friends arriving rather than a direct reply to Hinata.



SoulFire! said:


> Naruto had no reason to feel that his pride had been hurt by Hinata's previous actions against Pain--he was reassuring her with his words, diffusing any trepidation she may have felt and adding a touch of machismo.


He has every reason as someone who has a tendency to make it his personal responsibility to protect everyone himself, as someone who has a tendency to beat himself up when he can't and as someone that spent the better half of this war learning to _allow_ others to do the same for him.



SoulFire! said:


> Any other 'hints' regarding Naruto's feelings toward Sakura have taken place much farther back in the story. Quite a bit has happened since then to bring into question just how strong those feelings continue to be. Naruto, himself has shown no _serious _interest or pursuit of her in some time. That said, one cannot dismiss the possibility of any pairing, as Kishi can well do as he pleases in the end.


Maybe so but Naruto hasn't really been questioning his feelings either way has he? and then when the opportunity to show off in front of his father presents itself he uses it to confirm Sakura as a love interest...Naruto himself has given reason for lack of a serious pursuit and no matter how dated that is the alternative means providing indisputable evidence of romantic interest in Hinata.

Indeed.


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## SoulFire (Mar 31, 2014)

> Mr Horrible said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, I just think you're going to have trouble saying handholding is romantic while the hug was not.
> ...


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## LesExit (Mar 31, 2014)

Kage said:


> That it's convenient to bet all your chips on multiple examples rather than dismiss a single one??


hey how about a little less sarcasm with those fries next time >u>

I think it's just pointless to say such a statement....everyone's bias in some way, so one can always use that argument against another when it comes to these pairings can't they ⊙▃⊙?

It's one moment. Compared to the actual in your eyes moment and especially chapter 615, I wouldn't bet all my chips on that if I had too and I don't think I do. The NH handholding moment itself has given me enough confidence to believe Naruto returns feelings towards Hinata. Thats three moments in this war-arc, I'd put Kiba's comment as one of least important simply because I find the actual interaction between Naruto and Hinata to be what's taken as most important. I don't think the NS comedic gf comment shows any serious romantic feelings on Naruto's part or that the comment negates any evidence of developing feelings from Naruto to Hinata...and even if it did the moment still does NS no favors since Sakura completely shuts any such idea down. So then...Naruto held Hinata's hand just to give her friendly encouragement and Sakura is still pissed by Naruto making comments about her being in a romantic relationship with him...theres no progress there at all (」ﾟヘﾟ)」

If Naruto wakes up and has some special _serious_ romantic or just romantically implied moment with Sakura(lol I don't know...something), then I'll be convinced NS is still well in the pairing game(though of course something could always pop up later if not now). However until then thus far NH has the most serious at _least_ intimate one-on-one development in this entire war arc. There's been nothing but positivity when it comes to their development, so I feel fine with them and think they're in a really good place. I don't get how people think Kishi wrote these moments to be taken as just friendly war-buddy encouragements but it's all good I guess. Perhaps my bias is blinding me, it happens ヽ(ーuー )ノ

I just wonder what things will be like when a pairing is canon. WIll we debate over what _should've_ happen? What if NH happens and it's just awful(I don't know how but Kishi just bombs it lol??), and _everyone_ becomes a NS fan o___O!!?? This manga is the only one that's caused me to feel a strong connection with a pairing, enough so that I actually write stuff in a debate thread...to defend...a _fictional_ pairing. They're pretty lines and words on a paper, but you can still feel connected with them emotionally. I'm rambling right now, but this is where my brain decided to go... 
Do you ever just stop and think about that though? .... life is weird


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## SoulFire (Mar 31, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure that if Naruto were developing any type of romantic interest in Hinata at this point, then we would have definitely known it. Naruto is not a subtle guy when it comes to how he feels about girls. His interactions with Sakura should be a perfect example of that.
> ...


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## Xusasu Basasu (Apr 1, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> If it was all about Sakura choosing which side to take and supporting Naruto over Sasuke, then she would have known about Sasuke's condition as well. Kishi did not make her choose between them because that is not where he is going with the story. She loves them both (but in different ways, imo), that much is already clear.



If she had known about Sasuke's condition and chosen Naruto over him it'd have been too much of a decisive blow to Sakura/Sasuke and too much of a positive sign for Naruto/Sakura, essentially giving closure to the romantic subplot. Kishimoto always has to walk a fine line where he gives hints and teases to keep readers invested without giving a definitive answer. Most of the scenes involving the "Big 3" are ambiguous, leaving room for multiple interpretations, which is why this thread even exists. Sakura consciously letting Sasuke die wouldn't exactly fit with this modus operandi. 





> Karin is portrayed as a serious emotional nutcase. Her obsessive 'love' is completely serious to her, but also completely rejected by Sasuke.



Sasuke's reaction to Karin's advances isn't relevant to my point. Since I realized I shouldn't even talk about Sasuke/Karin as we're not supposed to discuss other pairings than the "Big 3" I should mention Naruto/Hinata and Sasuke/Sakura also had multiple comic relief scenes in part 1. Off the top of my head, I could cite Kiba mocking Hinata for fainting when she tried to visit Naruto at the hospital, or Sakura's date request getting rejected by Sasuke with slapstick panels of inner Sakura holding a big rock representing Sasuke's words, or her thinking she would like to see Sasuke take a leak. 

My point is this manga has already shown genuine romantic interest culminating in love confessions could be expressed through comic relief scenes, therefore it's dishonest to hold the way Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura is portrayed against him.



> Kishi is influenced by far more than shounen/Japanese tropes. He has repeatedly shown us romantic interaction minus the overt 'comic relief' within his story. The 'lighthearted and humorous' interaction between Naruto and Sakura seldom has a romantic vibe, and she behaves in a similar manner with other characters as well. Sakura may have tsundere elements to her personality, but she is not a romantic tsundere.



I don't know what "romantic tsundere" is supposed to mean. According to  tsundere is "a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing his or her warm side over time". For all intents and purposes this describes the relationship between Sakura and Naruto pretty accurately.

Sakura might not hit Naruto to hide her romantic feelings for him, nor does she say things like "don't get the wrong idea it's not like I bought this for you!" but not all tsunderes do things like that, only the most stereotypical ones. The same way Naruto might not be a carbon copy of Goku but still fits the typical Shonen Jump protagonist archetype pretty well, as opposed to a character like Death Note's Light Yagami for example. 




> I have never thought that Naruto hates Sakura: He was disappointed and angry with her. Naruto _does_ like her--he loves her, even. Whether those feelings remain romantic in nature is what is yet to be proven, at least to me.



Given the precedent established in the story, where romantic feelings of characters like Sakura or Hinata were denied but remained despite no "serious", undeniable confirmation being given for a while, I think the most reasonable position to take is to consider Naruto is still in love with Sakura until he himself claims otherwise.



> Naruto effectively took himself out of the running for Sakura's heart back at the PoaL. I'm sure he still retained feelings for her at that time (even though I consider it a crush, it is still a form of romantic love). His 'confession' to Sai  (and most if not all of Naruto's displays of romantic interest) took place back near the beginning of part two and quite a lot has happened since then to influence his already purposely distanced feelings.



We simply know Naruto's confirmation of his feelings for Sakura happened before the destruction of Konoha and after Sai joined Team 7, which could be a month before the current events for all we know, as to my knowledge there's no clear timeline available anywhere. I think that if Naruto's feelings for Sakura remained for 2 years despite him supposedly giving up on her during the PoaL then they can survive for an additional month. I suppose you could say Hinata's confession had a drastic effect on his feelings, but I'm not convinced the hand holding scene is enough to make such a definitive claim. 

I personally think it's more accurate to interpret it as Naruto temporarily refusing to pursue Sakura seriously (with a few comic relief scenes thrown in occasionally by Kishimoto so that the readers don't forget his interest) because he doesn't want to take advantage of Sakura's pain to be a rebound and because it's simply part of his code of honor. We know he puts a lot of his self worth on his ability to save Sasuke, as he's claimed multiple times he couldn't become Hokage if he couldn't save a single friend, so it's not that much of a stretch to think this mindset also applies to his romantic interest.

Finally, I think it doesn't fit his character to simply give up like that, and I think as the protagonist of the story his feelings should get a proper closure instead of simply getting somehow resolved off panel. Even if he doesn't expect Sakura to reciprocate I think it makes sense for him to want to properly compete with Sasuke for Sakura's heart once he's back to the "good guys" side, and that's why I don't buy him having given up on Sakura entirely. 




> Let's just say that as a mother myself, I consider the 'find someone who loves you like I do' as the most realistic and least complicated view of Kushina's advice.



Let's just agree to disagree here then. 



> I'm simply saying that Kishi has portrayed the majority of his established pairings as gentle and caring with a very few appearing as a dominant woman and a whipped man (the parents of Kiba and Shikamaru). Even Shikaku's comments indicate that his wife was gentle with him. Sure, there have been only a few panels regarding these established pairings, but in reality there hasn't been much more than that regarding Kishi's developing couples.



Shikaku's comment is a parallel to what Sai told Sakura in the first arc he appears in. Something about her being very gentle to Naruto. You might disagree with the statement but the point is Kishimoto had Sai make this comment for a reason, and I don't think it should be disregarded. We've seen examples of this contrast between Sakura's violent and aggressive personality and her more mellow and tender side with the infamous hug scene, which was definitely something a tsundere would do. 

Just so there's no misunderstanding btw, I'm not claiming Sakura hits Naruto because she loves him or that a pair must have a violent woman and a submissive man to be successful: I'm simply arguing against the notion Sakura hitting Naruto is the death knell of the pairing, as it's something extremely common in anime and manga and represents an archetype portrayed multiple times in the particular context of Naruto.





> Hinata relates with Naruto and redirects him in her own gentle way, without being scary--she would be the same with her children. There is no need for her to be that way and I don't know that this is all that important to Kishi regarding his story.



I've noticed Naruto has mentioned "moms being scary" multiple times recently, as well as Kishimoto himself talking about his wife being like that. Added to the parallels established between Sakura and Kushina I thought it was interesting, nothing more. I'm not saying it's particularly important, just a little thing that adds to the portrayal of the Naruto/Sakura pair.


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## Naiki (Apr 1, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Before the war arc I recall folks saying that Naruto immediately falling in love with Hinata without any further development would be unbelievable. Now that Kishi has them interacting and Naruto *showing enough interest* to spur Hinata's confidence in being with him at war's end, this interaction is seen as not enough.



Naruto hasn't interacted with Hinata in quite a while now. In fact, Naruto hasn't been interacting with anyone that much. They're in the midst of war. I think you're misinterpreting Naruto's respect for Hinata as something that it's not. 



> I think the entire slap to hand hold sequence contained plenty of development that could be viewed as romantic. Naruto hasn't had any interactions with Sakura that could be viewed as romantic for quite some time now--and no, the gf panels were not at all romantic.



Romantic development from Hinata, sure, but not from Naruto. 
Does his face expression here let you know that his mind is on romance: 
How about here: 
Or here:  I would also like to point out the sudden interruption of Naruto's thoughts on the next page also lets you know where his mind is. What was he thinking about in this panel:  It doesn't look like anything romantic alluding to Hinata that's for certain. He's flashing back to what he said to Kurama about not abandoning his friends or his bonds. This once again reinforces my stance that this was entirely based on camaraderie from Naruto's end.
Lastly, who is it that he is also thinking of when he grabs Hinata's hand:  His mother, father, and all of the people that died and gave their lives for the people they care about. That's the message. There is no romantic undertone from this.



> Naruto has never interacted with Hinata in the way that he does with practically everyone else. *He has always been more subdued in her presence, less 'full of himself' and more honest about his feelings*. It seems only natural that he would indicate interest in her in a less showy manner.



Could it be because that's the type of atmosphere that Hinata, herself, exudes? Hinata is a very subdued and less 'full of herself' person. Whenever you're around someone like that, you also take up that same atmosphere. Just like when he is around Sakura, he takes up this more showy and boisterous attitude (which is who he is, by the way). I would also like to note that when Naruto gives off this showy persona, he is more than likely trying to impress someone or show off.

When he does that in front of Sakura, he is trying to show off. I really wouldn't take him being subdued around Hinata as a compliment because it shows that he really isn't trying to impress her like he does with Sakura. When he first reunited with Sakura in the beginning is a perfect example of this: 

^ He was clearly showing off in that panel and look who was around; Sakura, which gave him even more reason to show off. 




> As you know, I don't buy that scene as at all to be taken seriously. I'm not going there again.



That's your interpretation but serious or not, it was still verification that Naruto still likes Sakura. 




> It is just as possible that _Obito_ will be the first one Naruto sees when he awakens, and if this proves true, Naruto is going to jump into defensive action immediately with all of his attention on what he perceives as an attack. A set up for a completely different type of moment.



Why would Naruto jump into defense mode when Naruto was seeking to change him in the first place? Naruto certainly wasn't ready to attack him when they were in that other world talking, so why would he do it now? Hell, he was even reaching his hand out to him and called out Sasuke's name when he went to finish him off.

I think it'll be unlikely that there will be some type of violent exchange when Naruto wakes up and sees Obito with a new resolve. 




> Hinata has loved Naruto from all the way back in their Chuunin days. She has sought his acknowledgement, his respect AND his love. She repeatedly expresses her desire to be beside him, hand in hand after the war is over and for always. This truth is beyond established and proven.



Show me a panel where Hinata states that she wants Naruto to love her please. The real truth is that the only thing Hinata has ever expressed is to catch up to Naruto. Here, she talks about always chasing him and wanting to overtake him, but nowhere did she ever express the desire to be in a romantic relationship with him.

The issue is that you're taking her 'I wanted to be with you', and 'I wanted to walk with you' too literally. She isn't talking in a romantic sense. She is talking in a sense of strength and willpower. That's blatantly obvious if you actually pay attention to the text and it directly ties with her statement of her 'always chasing him' which suggests that she was always far behind him. She even goes on to say that he changed her and his smile saved her. Now, tell me, would the context of everything on that page make sense if she were talking about being with him and walking with him in a romantic sense? 

Would it make sense for her to say that his love changed her, but rather his will to never give up and his courage? After all, that's why Hinata adopted the same nindo as he did, correct? It wasn't because she was pursuing a romantic relationship with him, correct? So, how would it make sense for her to be speaking _in_ a romantic sense about being by Naruto's side? 

When you look at it from that sense, then the 'I want to be with you' and 'I want to walk with you' statements actually make sense. Take that along with her flashbacks of him working hard when she was always a cry baby and gave up all of the time. Here is the panel: , and I really look forward to you showing me a panel where she says her goal and desire is to be in a romantic relationship with Naruto and have him return her love.


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## Kage (Apr 1, 2014)

LesExit said:


> hey how about a little less sarcasm with those fries next time >u>
> 
> I think it's just pointless to say such a statement....everyone's bias in some way, so one can always use that argument against another when it comes to these pairings can't they ⊙▃⊙?


I am mildly offended you think _that's_ my sarcasm  I really am. It was an honest question.

Perhaps but I'm not being biased when I say Naruto has clearly expressed a romantic interest in Sakura before. I am not being biased when I say Naruto has not clearly expressed a romantic interest in Hinata before.

I will say I don't think your stance overall is an unreasonable one but I also don't think it unusual for Naruto to just be nice to Hinata without "romantic intention" looming all over it. I know it's pretty much all Hinata's character exists for so it would seem kind of cruel to have all her feelings "go nowhere" (because it's not enough that she's been acknowledged by Naruto and is considered a precious comrade) but it's not the same for Naruto at all. He doesn't need Hinata to validate his existence. 




LesExit said:


> I just wonder what things will be like when a pairing is canon. WIll we debate over what _should've_ happen? What if NH happens and it's just awful(I don't know how but Kishi just bombs it lol??), and _everyone_ becomes a NS fan o___O!!?? This manga is the only one that's caused me to feel a strong connection with a pairing, enough so that I actually write stuff in a debate thread...to defend...a _fictional_ pairing. They're pretty lines and words on a paper, but you can still feel connected with them emotionally. I'm rambling right now, but this is where my brain decided to go...
> Do you ever just stop and think about that though? .... life is weird



I think it's safe to say no matter what (or what doesn't) end up canon the debates will never be over.  It's just how pairings and anyone with serious time and investment in them work in general.

I try not to think about it too much. I'm only here cuz I get bored 



SoulFire! said:


> Honestly, we don't know whether Naruto and Hinata met after the Pain incident. We do have a sequenced memory of Naruto from Hinata that may be from such a meeting. Development between characters during times of drama and danger is just as appropriate as any other time. It is often during such times that the strongest of bonds are formed.


We can only know what we have been shown. This has never been shown and Hinata conjuring up a random image of Naruto doesn't really imply this either...nor does it have to be related to some tryst with her before he left to meet B. I agree but how many more times must Hinata risk her life and experience personal tragedy to keep the ball rolling here I wonder...



SoulFire! said:


> Naruto is letting Hinata know that he has not forgotten anything she has done (and that includes her confession). Kishi is illustrating a growing interest in her, beginning with Naruto leaping to her defense when he could have directed others there and continuing on through the war arc. Kishi is developing a new bond between them, but I don't expect Naruto to have already fallen head over heels for her. I don't expect pairings to be fulfilled until near story's end (and there still appears to be quite a bit to go).


Naruto's shadow clones were all over the battle field, leaping to whatever defense needed defending...Hinata got the chance to talk to that KB thanks to her skeptical teammates but it was no less a moment I guess. While I don't buy all this supposed subtly I don't rule out the possibility of crap writing at work. He's done worse.



SoulFire! said:


> Learning that your Mom loves you is completely different than discovering that someone completely outside of your peripheral vision admits that they have been inspired by you, drew strength from you and loved you for years. I  think Naruto's reaction was one of shock and surprise--he was dumbfounded. I'd expect that he likes the idea that someone has always been in the wings, liking him for just being him, but I also think that it could leave him tongue tied in a way he has never been before.


It is but I meant in general. Naruto is a character who is pretty much fueled by the concept of _love_ and to shy away from a kind of love rooted in _loving him for who he is_ after we've _seen_ the very noticeable affects of how someone who acknowledges him changes his life? (ex: Iruka, Sasuke and everyone else eventually) who weeps over a fellow jin not getting the chance to experience things like kissing girls? hmm. His shock and surprise was understandable initially but when it doesn't really take off from there (as far as making a grand impression on his life) it makes you wonder if her feelings can only go so far.



> Because Hinata is right behind them. And if Kiba is using his call out to Naruto as a taunt of sorts, it is a bit of a jab at her as well.
> 
> Exactly, which is why I don't believe he was teasing Naruto in a snarky way. He was making a teasing comment on what he picked up on during the 'eyes' exchange between Naruto and Hinata.


It's really not.

This is a guy who will argue he is seriously a better contender for the Hokage title. It's just not meant to be malicious but it is meant to provoke him.



> Maybe, but I don't think so. Naruto was just concentrating more on the coming battle than Kiba's silliness.


_Kiba's silliness_ is exactly why I believe it wasn't worth responding to in the first place.



> Or Naruto could have been 'acting tough' for Hinata with an equivalent of 'Hell, yeah!' in his greeting response to her question (which induced Kiba to make the teasing comment).


Regardless it's not really a big deal that he simply answers a question.



> We won't see Naruto truly displaying his feelings whatever they may be this early in the game. Still a lot of war drama to get through, not to mention settling things with Sasuke. Sorry--I don't take the gf comment seriously...and any serious romantic interest shown by Naruto in Sakura has been MIA for some time.


I wouldn't consider 600 + chapters "early in the game"
You don't need to take it seriously. As long as Naruto does you will only continue waiting for him to seriously move on to Hinata.



> Naruto negated that reason (which we have seen only in Sai's memory) at the Iron Country confession, and since then Sasuke has returned on his own. There is no longer anything standing in Naruto's way, but he has yet to tell Sakura how he feels (Sakura's love for Sasuke were not a consideration in his explanation to Sai). There could just be a chance that his feelings have changed.


As far as the promise being the reason he was trying to bring Sasuke back yeah (I don't see how it being from Sai's perspective really changes anything) It didn't negate his feelings. You assert pairings won't be resolved until the very end and until everything with Sasuke has been settled but basically consider things with Sasuke already settled in this case? (why should it be when Naruto just wants to let her know how _he_ feels?)

It's now or never for Naruto ---> Sakura but he gets to take his time with Hinata.


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## SoulFire (Apr 1, 2014)

Xusasu Basasu said:


> If she had known about Sasuke's condition and chosen Naruto over him it'd have been too much of a decisive blow to Sakura/Sasuke and too much of a positive sign for Naruto/Sakura, essentially giving closure to the romantic subplot. Kishimoto always has to walk a fine line where he gives hints and teases to keep readers invested without giving a definitive answer. Most of the scenes involving the "Big 3" are ambiguous, leaving room for multiple interpretations, which is why this thread even exists. Sakura consciously letting Sasuke die wouldn't exactly fit with this modus operandi.



I don't think Kishi is at all interested in having Sakura choose between her beloved team mates. Her longtime goal has been to save and protect both of them.



> I should mention Naruto/Hinata and Sasuke/Sakura also had multiple comic relief scenes in part 1. Off the top of my head, I could cite Kiba mocking Hinata for fainting when she tried to visit Naruto at the hospital, or Sakura's date request getting rejected by Sasuke with slapstick panels of inner Sakura holding a big rock representing Sasuke's words, or her thinking she would like to see Sasuke take a leak.



That's stretching it. Kiba teasing Hinata for _almost _ fainting at the sight of Naruto in bandages does not strike me as a NaruHina comedic moment as it did not involve them together. The two SS examples at least dealt with the characters within the pairing.



> My point is this manga has already shown genuine romantic interest culminating in love confessions could be expressed through comic relief scenes, therefore it's dishonest to hold the way Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura is portrayed against him.



Just not seeing anything indicating serious romantic interest in the recent comedic panels between Naruto and Sakura--from him or her. 



> I don't know what "romantic tsundere" is supposed to mean. According to  tsundere is "a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing his or her warm side over time". For all intents and purposes this describes the relationship between Sakura and Naruto pretty accurately.



The strongest example of a romantic tsundere that I can think of is Helga from 'Here's Arnold'. Hating on Arnold to his face while longing for him behind his back. Sakura turns her temper on anyone who draws her ire. Tsundere behavior of itself doesn't always indicate a romantic interest.



> Given the precedent established in the story, where romantic feelings of characters like Sakura or Hinata were denied but remained despite no "serious", undeniable confirmation being given for a while, I think the most reasonable position to take is to consider Naruto is still in love with Sakura until he himself claims otherwise.



I find that the feelings of Hinata and Sakura have always been pretty obvious and out there regarding their love interests while evidence of Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura has dwindled with time. He has passed on more than one opportunity to at least return her hugs. No way is Naruto going to claim his feelings for anyone until the story winds further down, but I'm getting very little by way of romantic vibes towards Sakura from him. Should be interesting to see what happens when he wakes up in Obito's tetris zone, eh?



> We simply know Naruto's confirmation of his feelings for Sakura happened before the destruction of Konoha and after Sai joined Team 7, which could be a month before the current events for all we know, as to my knowledge there's no clear timeline available anywhere.



Given that Kakashi was not on the mission (Sakura was going to report to him if I remember correctly) and Naruto wearing that backpack that we saw during the Sasuke retrieval arc, I'm putting that scene a long way back in the story line. 



> I personally think it's more accurate to interpret it as Naruto temporarily refusing to pursue Sakura seriously (with a few comic relief scenes thrown in occasionally by Kishimoto so that the readers don't forget his interest) because he doesn't want to take advantage of Sakura's pain to be a rebound and because it's simply part of his code of honor. We know he puts a lot of his self worth on his ability to save Sasuke, as he's claimed multiple times he couldn't become Hokage if he couldn't save a single friend, so it's not that much of a stretch to think this mindset also applies to his romantic interest.



Possibly, but that reasoning wasn't apparent in his answer to Sai. It was more about his failure to keep his promises than out of respect of Sakura's feelings.



> Finally, I think it doesn't fit his character to simply give up like that, and I think as the protagonist of the story his feelings should get a proper closure instead of simply getting somehow resolved off panel. Even if he doesn't expect Sakura to reciprocate I think it makes sense for him to want to properly compete with Sasuke for Sakura's heart once he's back to the "good guys" side, and that's why I don't buy him having given up on Sakura entirely.



Naruto does 'give up' (change his pov) on things as he progresses--he was resolved to never use the Kyuubi's power for the sake of his precious people at one point, but came to realize that he had to take control of that untapped power. 

Naruto's feelings will get proper closure--but this is not yet the time. Kishi has already had a little fun with the rivalry between the guys, but I see any such behavior as Team 7 oriented and not really motivated by romantic competition.




> Let's just agree to disagree here then.



Sure! 



> Just so there's no misunderstanding btw, I'm not claiming Sakura hits Naruto because she loves him or that a pair must have a violent woman and a submissive man to be successful: I'm simply arguing against the notion Sakura hitting Naruto is the death knell of the pairing, as it's something extremely common in anime and manga and represents an archetype portrayed multiple times in the particular context of Naruto.



I've never taken Sakura's traditional comedic violence as anything but that. I just don't consider it a surefire indication of hidden romantic feelings on her part.


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## Schweinsteiger (Apr 5, 2014)

Guess I ship narusaku, with 631 and the cpr I think it will most likely happen.
And shouldn't sasukarin be in here?


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 5, 2014)

Nope. Big 3 thread for a reason. 
CPR is a life saving procedure, not some make out fest or romantic kiss. This has been beaten to death. Sakura, being the teams DESIGNATED MEDICAL NINJA, pretty much HAD to save his life, as it was her JOB.


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## merlina (Apr 5, 2014)

*waves* Hi! I'm new. Hope you don't mind if I just jump right in. 



SoulFire! said:


> Just not seeing anything indicating serious romantic interest in the recent comedic panels between Naruto and Sakura--from him or her.



I read this thread over the past few days and I wanted to compliment you on your posts, SoulFire, well articulated and with a nice attitude.

ch1p's posts have also made me fangirl.

To attempt to contribute without beating too many dead horses:

I find the idea that Sakura is behaving romantically as a tsundere toward Naruto difficult to believe because she has been playing the tsukkomi to both Naruto and Kakashi's boke for a long time (remember when Kakashi says Sasuke's the only one she doesn't play the tsukkomi to. He uses the word tsukkomanai in Japanese, I forget what the exact subtitle was). Also, I suppose it's possible to have incredibly different romantic approaches to different people but her romantic approach to Sasuke was anything but tsundere. She fawned over him quite openly. The stronger argument for romantic feelings from Sakura's perspective would be the times she admires him and is affectionate towards him, but for me the failfession and the love letter nin convinced me that she admires Naruto as a close friend and comrade rather than romantically. I wouldn't say it's an impossible outcome, I actually warmed to NaruSaku for a while during the arc when he was losing to the Kyuubi transformations, but right now it's not what I'd put my money on.


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 6, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Nope. Big 3 thread for a reason.
> CPR is a life saving procedure, not some make out fest or romantic kiss. This has been beaten to death. Sakura, being the teams DESIGNATED MEDICAL NINJA, pretty much HAD to save his life, as it was her JOB.



Claiming Sakura saved Naruto because she HAD to is a hilarious new interpretation of that chapter.

I mean it's not valid, but it's amusing as hell.



merlina said:


> I find the idea that Sakura is behaving romantically as a tsundere toward Naruto difficult to believe because she has been playing the tsukkomi to both Naruto and Kakashi's boke for a long time (remember when Kakashi says Sasuke's the only one she doesn't play the tsukkomi to. He uses the word tsukkomanai in Japanese, I forget what the exact subtitle was).



Sakura's dere dere moments have gotten a hell of a lot more ambiguous for NS as the series progressed though. I admit I'm not a huge fan of Sakura = tsundere though either as it doesn't truly fit her character.



> Also, I suppose it's possible to have incredibly different romantic approaches to different people but her romantic approach to Sasuke was anything but tsundere. She fawned over him quite openly.



And we all know how that turned out for her. I think you're judging Sakura's actions based on her previously being a fangirl. I don't think Sakura will be a fangirl for anyone now, that part of her character was left behind (basically = no more fawning).



> The stronger argument for romantic feelings from Sakura's perspective would be the times she admires him and is affectionate towards him, but for me the failfession and the love letter nin convinced me that she admires Naruto as a close friend and comrade rather than romantically.



This is where I ask that if one pairing *has* to happen, which pairing would that be? Do you think the other pairings have a stronger shot than NS even with the confession and love letter nin?



> I wouldn't say it's an impossible outcome, I actually warmed to NaruSaku for a while during the arc when he was losing to the Kyuubi transformations, but right now it's not what I'd put my money on.



The arc where Naruto hurt Sakura? There's a pairing preferences joke in here somewhere .


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## merlina (Apr 6, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Sakura's dere dere moments have gotten a hell of a lot more ambiguous for NS as the series progressed though. I admit I'm not a huge fan of Sakura = tsundere though either as it doesn't truly fit her character. ... And we all know how that turned out for her. I think you're judging Sakura's actions based on her previously being a fangirl. I don't think Sakura will be a fangirl for anyone now, that part of her character was left behind (basically = no more fawning).



What I mean is that Sakura's fawning shows that she's capable of being straightforward with her affections, tsunderes are not straightforward. I agree that she's expressed affection toward Naruto, just not convinced it's lovey dovey at this point. If she had really moved on to Naruto she would have made it known already and he would have believed her. (or, Kishi is stringing it out because he wants to keep it until the ending, but then why didn't see see Sasuke and Naruto both in the love letter nin scene?)



> This is where I ask that if one pairing *has* to happen, which pairing would that be? Do you think the other pairings have a stronger shot than NS even with the confession and love letter nin?



I still believe that if Kishi is going for a Sakura pairing he's going for SasuSaku. His murderous dark chakra can be explained with the Uchiha hatred curse etc, so I think he's going to have them reconcile. Do I think this would be a healthy idea in a comparable real life situation? No. But people don't suffer from curses and plus, teaching twelve-year-olds to throw kunai at dangerous adults isn't a good idea in real life either. It's a fantasy. This whole thing takes a lot of suspension of disbelief, like Gaara becoming Hokage despite his ruthless killer past etc. As unrealistic as it may be, Kishi seems to be going for a full redemption for Sasuke. (Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the way he's handling a lot of this, I'm not defending all of his decisions, but this thread as far as I understand is about where we think he's going with it, not the story we would write. I don't hold the manga to real life standards, it's not that genre.)



> The arc where Naruto hurt Sakura? There's a pairing preferences joke in here somewhere .



Oh you  I see the humor. But for me, the violence is the same kind of violence they call "fantasy violence" in movie ratings. It's unrealistic and there for drama. If you take it dead cold seriously then the kids should be a lot more grim and traumatized in general and the whole thing would be painful to watch.


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## Super Chief (Apr 6, 2014)

Kishi wrote that CPR scene for funsies. It has no meaning whatsoever. Right?


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## LesExit (Apr 6, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Kishi wrote that CPR scene for funsies. It has no meaning whatsoever. Right?


 what do you mean o___o? Of course it has serious meaning. Sakura was trying to save his life  I loved how badass Sakura was in that scene 

oh wait was that sarcasm? It better have been >__>


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 6, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Claiming Sakura saved Naruto because she HAD to is a hilarious new interpretation of that chapter.
> 
> I mean it's not valid, but it's amusing as hell.



Claiming she wanted a romantiku kissu from nardo isn't exactly a brilliant observation either. That's why I'm being realistic.


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## LesExit (Apr 6, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Claiming Sakura saved Naruto because she HAD to is a hilarious new interpretation of that chapter.
> 
> I mean it's not valid, but it's amusing as hell.


 Well..what were the other options? Naruto is one of the MVP's in this entire war-arc. 

When you take into account their desperate situation....being if Madara was not stopped they would all fall under that gen-jutsu...Naruto being kept alive is incredibly important. Sakura knows this, however her want to keep him alive also has to do with her caring for him deeply. Unfortunately she was low on chakra, and the only option she saw she had as a medic-ninja was CPR. There was no romantic intimacy implied in the procedure at all, Sakura went into full-blown serious badass medic ninja mode.

I guess no she didn't HAVE too, none of the ninjas there have to do anything, they could sit on their butts and wait for the flower to bloom or whatever XD but...really why _wouldn't_ she? She's a medic ninja, Naruto's an MVP in the war, and she doesn't want him to just die before he's able to accomplish his dreams. I thought the moment was pretty awesome though....


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Well..what were the other options? Naruto is one of the MVP's in this entire war-arc.
> 
> When you take into account their desperate situation....being if Madara was not stopped they would all fall under that gen-jutsu...Naruto being kept alive is incredibly important. Sakura knows this, however her want to keep him alive also has to do with her caring for him deeply. Unfortunately she was low on chakra, and the only option she saw she had as a medic-ninja was CPR. There was no romantic intimacy implied in the procedure at all, Sakura went into full-blown serious badass medic ninja mode.
> 
> I guess no she didn't HAVE too, none of the ninjas there have to do anything, they could sit on their butts and wait for the flower to bloom or whatever XD but...really why _wouldn't_ she? She's a medic ninja, Naruto's an MVP in the war, and she doesn't want him to just die before he's able to accomplish his dreams. I thought the moment was pretty awesome though....



Agreed. I mean fuck, like she's just going to let him die? Not only his team mate but his best friend. I mean shit, it's a life saving procedure, and to imagine anymore is over the edge.


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## Kage (Apr 6, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Claiming she wanted a romantiku kissu from nardo isn't exactly a brilliant observation either. That's why I'm being realistic.



Knowing Horrible that's not likely to be the case. If you hadn't noticed you attempted to make the scenario as impersonal as possible. You know, kind of like when people say Naruto only grabbed Hinata's hand to transfer his chakra without a speck of emotional investment? (doesn't really matter be that romantic or not)

Except this accusation is much worse because Sakura's reputation is already horrid and now you guys are implying saving Naruto's life was more a professional move than anything else.

It's not like she cares or anything because then some might think it's romantic so it's better to just axe the whole idea that Naruto matters to her a bit more than just as the _MVP_ of the war at all.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 6, 2014)

Kage said:


> Knowing Horrible that's not likely to be the case. If you hadn't noticed you attempted to make the scenario as impersonal as possible. You know, kind of like when people say Naruto only grabbed Hinata's hand to transfer his chakra without a speck of emotional investment? (doesn't really matter be that romantic or not)
> 
> Except this accusation is much worse because Sakura's reputation is already horrid and now you guys are implying saving Naruto's life was more a professional move than anything else.
> 
> It's not like she cares or anything because then some might think it's romantic so it's better to just axe the whole idea that Naruto matters to her a bit more than just as the _MVP_ of the war at all.


No one said he wasn't important to her, just that it wasn't some romantic moment. It's a lifesaving procedure, I mean fuck, if they kissed, or if she was crying over his body saying "I love you please don't die!" then yea, it'd be romantic, but that's not the fucking case.


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## Kage (Apr 6, 2014)

No one said anything about it being a kiss of the most romantic love either.

When you have to make sound as clinical as possible just to prove such a point maybe it's not the opposition who is getting carried away by ideas of romance...


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 6, 2014)

> No one said anything about it being a kiss of the most romantic love either.
> 
> When you have to make sound as clinical as possible just to prove such a point maybe it's not the opposition who is getting carried away by ideas of romance...





Schweinsteiger said:


> Guess I ship narusaku, with 631 and the cpr I think it will most likely happen.
> And shouldn't sasukarin be in here?



At least read the previous posts before jumping on my case. CPR isn't something that should be added to a list of moments, as it was nothing but a life saving procedure towards a friend and ally. THAT is what I was saying. God forbid if Sakura does her job whilst saving her friend/teammates life without said action being considered something of affection .-. You can't really interpret saving a life, unless she did more than that.


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## Kage (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm sorry, I didn't bother to take that seriously but I should have known it might be enough to get the hackles rising elsewhere.

Much threat. 

So it wasn't her affection for him talking when she insists that he has to live to see his dream realized?

What you say and what you mean are two different things. God forbid being affectionate automatically translates to being romantic.

I'm not normally one to defend anything Sakura does (or feels) but in this case she manages not to be a moron while genuinely giving a shit about someone other than herself. This insecurity tho.


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## LesExit (Apr 6, 2014)

Kage said:


> Knowing Horrible that's not likely to be the case. If you hadn't noticed you attempted to make the scenario as impersonal as possible. You know, kind of like when people say Naruto only grabbed Hinata's hand to transfer his chakra without a speck of emotional investment? (doesn't really matter be that romantic or not)
> 
> Except this accusation is much worse because Sakura's reputation is already horrid and now you guys are implying saving Naruto's life was more a professional move than anything else.
> 
> It's not like she cares or anything because then some might think it's romantic so it's better to just axe the whole idea that Naruto matters to her a bit more than just as the _MVP_ of the war at all.


I also said it was because she cared about him deeply too you know 
Theres many factors in the situation, a major one begin that keeping Naruto alive is incredibly important if they want to win, that's just the truth. Another one was that she is a professional medic ninja, it's her job. However of course a large part of her wanting to save him is because of how she feels for him on a personal level, which is shown when she recalls Naruto's dreams. 

It's not that it's impersonal, theres just nothing in the moment that implies romantic intimacy. Nothing in Sakura's thoughts, or her actions. Being mouth to mouth is what the procedure calls for. The most personal part of it from Sakura to him was her recalling Naruto's dreams and not wanting to see him fail at reaching them, which I think is great shows how much she cares for him. Just don't see the romantic nature in this. Maybe when Naruto wakes up, we'll see Sakura react in a more emotional way or something??? 

I definitely don't want to downplay this moment emotionally, but I'm also not going to paint it as Sakura doing it because she has romantic feelings for Naruto because other people can't tell the difference between CPR and a romantic kiss o_____o


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## Kage (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't think it's romantic either. 

I just thought it was kind of funny the need to insist it was her job to keep him alive rather than something she wanted to do.

I'm also trying to get across that it's okay to admit something may be in the realm of affection because that doesn't have to imply romance. This is basically where I put the handhold, it was an affectionate gesture but not a romantic one. I consider Sakura's desire to keep Naruto alive, wanting him to realize his dreams much of the same. 

These are the kind of things that are often interpreted as being about more and people will take the opportunity to do so when they can. Go on if you can make a decent case for it and some are indeed in a better position to make a case than others.


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## LesExit (Apr 6, 2014)

Kage said:


> I don't think it's romantic either.
> 
> I just thought it was kind of funny the need to insist it was her job to keep him alive rather than something she wanted to do.
> 
> ...


Ya I got that.

I think there are a few basic things which are different in the NH moments which make it much more obviously one in the zone of romantic affection, but the hand-hold has been argued to death and clearly the barrier between people who see it as a sign of Kishi wanting to romantically develop them and those who see it as friendly affectionate encouragement isn't going to break, until there are further pairing hints. So I'll just leave it there lol


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## Kage (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't begrudge you for believing those differences exist. Yeah, still at a stalemate until something that allows *no* room for interpretation comes along. 

You're my favorite in this thread


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## Xusasu Basasu (Apr 6, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I don't think Kishi is at all interested in having Sakura choose between her beloved team mates. Her longtime goal has been to save and protect both of them.



I think it's a conflict that might very well arise during the much anticipated final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke. In this case, given the current situation and the hints given recently about her losing faith in Sasuke, I think it makes sense that she'd make a choice that'd be pretty damning for the chances of Sasuke/Sakura.




> That's stretching it. Kiba teasing Hinata for _almost _ fainting at the sight of Naruto in bandages does not strike me as a NaruHina comedic moment as it did not involve them together. The two SS examples at least dealt with the characters within the pairing.



Naruto might not have been present but it was still a scene about the relationship between him and Hinata, and my point was that Hinata's romantic interest was then portrayed in a light hearted and comedic way, yet I don't think any Naruto/Hinata supporter used said scene to conclude Hinata wasn't really in love with Naruto. I ask the same leeway to be given to Naruto when it comes to his feelings for Sakura and the way they're portrayed.




> Just not seeing anything indicating serious romantic interest in the recent comedic panels between Naruto and Sakura--from him or her.



Yes, but this doesn't matter. What matters is, as I've shown, comedic scenes portraying romantic interest eventually ended up with a confession. This is why it makes no sense to completely disregard the numerous instances of Naruto showing romantic interest in Sakura in part 2 and conclude that the pairing is dead and buried. Added to the fact we've been given a reason why said confession from Naruto has yet to happen, it'd be wiser to at least expect such a thing to be used to give closure to the entire subplot, no matter the outcome.





> The strongest example of a romantic tsundere that I can think of is Helga from 'Here's Arnold'. Hating on Arnold to his face while longing for him behind his back. Sakura turns her temper on anyone who draws her ire. Tsundere behavior of itself doesn't always indicate a romantic interest.



I know very little about that particular fiction so I can't comment, but I find it a bit weird that you're using an american cartoon as an example of a typically japanese trope. 



> I find that the feelings of Hinata and Sakura have always been pretty obvious and out there regarding their love interests while evidence of Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura has dwindled with time. He has passed on more than one opportunity to at least return her hugs. No way is Naruto going to claim his feelings for anyone until the story winds further down, but I'm getting very little by way of romantic vibes towards Sakura from him. Should be interesting to see what happens when he wakes up in Obito's tetris zone, eh?



I don't think you can say he hasn't returned her first hug as we don't really see what happens once his initial surprise (probably) subsides. The focus is on Sakura's face and tender gesture (what you'd call a caress I suppose) and then we get a reaction shot from the villagers. It's therefore impossible to prove your claim, but even if for some reason he hadn't returned it, there'd be more interpretations possible than just "his love for her has waned" (surprise, not knowing how to react to such an intimate gesture, refusal to get too close to her due to him not being able to keep his promises etc).

The second hug was in such a particular context it can't really be used as a proof of anything either, except as I said previously that he was understandbly angry at her at the time.




> Given that Kakashi was not on the mission (Sakura was going to report to him if I remember correctly) and Naruto wearing that backpack that we saw during the Sasuke retrieval arc, I'm putting that scene a long way back in the story line.



I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't see how any of this helps in figuring out the moment the scene took place.



> Possibly, but that reasoning wasn't apparent in his answer to Sai. It was more about his failure to keep his promises than out of respect of Sakura's feelings.



As I said, it's coherent with his refusal to pursue certain goals as long as he hasn't brought Sasuke back to the "light" yet.




> Naruto does 'give up' (change his pov) on things as he progresses--he was resolved to never use the Kyuubi's power for the sake of his precious people at one point, but came to realize that he had to take control of that untapped power.



I think it's twisting things a bit. He resolved not to use the Kyuubi power when he had no control over it because it meant losing himself to it and becoming a danger to his comrades. It never meant that if given the chance to control the power while staying himself he would refuse to do it, which would be stupid and counterproductive. Regardless, I don't think it's really comparable to something like his romantic interest, which has been a far more important and regular plotline than that one particular example.



> Naruto's feelings will get proper closure--but this is not yet the time. Kishi has already had a little fun with the rivalry between the guys, but I see any such behavior as Team 7 oriented and not really motivated by romantic competition.



I do agree they'll get proper closure, and I also think the best way for it is to have him confess to Sakura properly, again regardless of the outcome (that's a matter of pairing preference and I won't go there). This is at least something the protagonist deserve.




> I've never taken Sakura's traditional comedic violence as anything but that. I just don't consider it a surefire indication of hidden romantic feelings on her part.



There's no surefire indication of "hidden romantic feelings" from either Naruto, Sasuke or Sakura towards Hinata, Sakura or Naruto. Again this is why a thread like this exists, there's only ambiguous signs that may or may not mean something. In any case, I don't think Sakura hitting Naruto to hide her romantic feelings for him is an argument seriously used by Naruto/Sakura fans, I've seen more discussions about certain facial expressions, parallels, comments from third parties and supplementary material we're not allowed to discuss here than "she hits him so she must love him!".


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## LesExit (Apr 6, 2014)

Kage said:


> You're my favorite in this thread



....:0 ......



Is it because of the badass thuggish nature I give off :33?


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## SoulFire (Apr 7, 2014)

Naiki said:


> > Naruto hasn't interacted with Hinata in quite a while now. In fact, Naruto hasn't been interacting with anyone that much. They're in the midst of war. I think you're misinterpreting Naruto's respect for Hinata as something that it's not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 7, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Claiming she wanted a romantiku kissu from nardo isn't exactly a brilliant observation either. That's why I'm being realistic.



I didn't claim that, nor did the post you responded to. The moment can be important for NS without being considered a romantiku kissu.

Your realism leaves much to be desired.



LesExit said:


> Well..what were the other options? Naruto is one of the MVP's in this entire war-arc.
> 
> When you take into account their desperate situation....being if Madara was not stopped they would all fall under that gen-jutsu...Naruto being kept alive is incredibly important. Sakura knows this, however her want to keep him alive also has to do with her caring for him deeply. Unfortunately she was low on chakra, and the only option she saw she had as a medic-ninja was CPR. There was no romantic intimacy implied in the procedure at all, Sakura went into full-blown serious badass medic ninja mode.
> 
> I guess no she didn't HAVE too, none of the ninjas there have to do anything, they could sit on their butts and wait for the flower to bloom or whatever XD but...really why _wouldn't_ she? She's a medic ninja, Naruto's an MVP in the war, and she doesn't want him to just die before he's able to accomplish his dreams. I thought the moment was pretty awesome though....



"Had" implies obligation, in this context it meant MichaelInsanity was implying Sakura saved Naruto because she was obligated to rather than because he was such an important person _to her_.

I don't really give a shit about Naruto being the MVP of the war, that wasn't even mentioned in the chapter that focused on Sakura there.



MichaelInsanity said:


> Agreed. I mean fuck, like she's just going to let him die? Not only his team mate but his best friend. I mean shit, it's a life saving procedure, and to imagine anymore is over the edge.



It shows the closeness of their bond.



MichaelInsanity said:


> No one said he wasn't important to her, just that it wasn't some romantic moment. It's a lifesaving procedure, I mean fuck, if they kissed, or if she was crying over his body saying "I love you please don't die!" then yea, it'd be romantic, but that's not the fucking case.



That's a rather binary definition of romance there. Under such a system NH and SS don't even come close to romance either.



MichaelInsanity said:


> At least read the previous posts before jumping on my case. CPR isn't something that should be added to a list of moments, as it was nothing but a life saving procedure towards a friend and ally. THAT is what I was saying. God forbid if Sakura does her job whilst saving her friend/teammates life without said action being considered something of affection .-. You can't really interpret saving a life, unless she did more than that.



Again, you're assuming Sakura saved Naruto because it's her job, which is rather distasteful and duplicitous. 

There was also quite a bit of affection from Sakura shown there.



merlina said:


> What I mean is that Sakura's fawning shows that she's capable of being straightforward with her affections, tsunderes are not straightforward. I agree that she's expressed affection toward Naruto, just not convinced it's lovey dovey at this point. If she had really moved on to Naruto she would have made it known already and he would have believed her. (or, Kishi is stringing it out because he wants to keep it until the ending, but then why didn't see see Sasuke and Naruto both in the love letter nin scene?)



/Shrug, I would consider her dere dere moments to be reasonably straight forward. She also shows a hell of a lot more backbone around Naruto/others than she did around Sasuke in part 1 so I'm ok with her not mirroring her part 1 self ever again.

As far as the love letter nin goes; I don't really know/care, I guess you'd have to assume Sakura still isn't really aware of her feelings for Naruto, she can be a bit dense about these things if canon is to be believed. What is important in the love letter scene for me was her perception of Sasuke (and her reaction when he came back), these were both *highly* negative for SS>



> I still believe that if Kishi is going for a Sakura pairing he's going for SasuSaku. His murderous dark chakra can be explained with the Uchiha hatred curse etc, so I think he's going to have them reconcile. Do I think this would be a healthy idea in a comparable real life situation? No. But people don't suffer from curses and plus, teaching twelve-year-olds to throw kunai at dangerous adults isn't a good idea in real life either. It's a fantasy. This whole thing takes a lot of suspension of disbelief, like Gaara becoming Hokage despite his ruthless killer past etc. As unrealistic as it may be, Kishi seems to be going for a full redemption for Sasuke. (Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the way he's handling a lot of this, I'm not defending all of his decisions, but this thread as far as I understand is about where we think he's going with it, not the story we would write. I don't hold the manga to real life standards, it's not that genre.)



It has been shown _many_ times that it was Sasuke's own choice to go down this path, the result of this made his chakra so dark. The Sasuke/Gaara comparison is another thing I particularly dislike, Gaara got one chance from Naruto and took it after never knowing what comrades were/anything other than loneliness. Sasuke on the other hand willingly betrayed his comrades even going as far as specifically targeting them for death despite all the times Naruto tried to change his mind. Just reread the Sasuke vs Gaara dialogue at the Summit to have an idea of how different the characters are.



> Oh you  I see the humor. But for me, the violence is the same kind of violence they call "fantasy violence" in movie ratings. It's unrealistic and there for drama. If you take it dead cold seriously then the kids should be a lot more grim and traumatized in general and the whole thing would be painful to watch.



/Shrug, the story emphasises not fucking over your comrades, Sasuke did it for years. If he gets out of it without repercussions it'll probably be either a plot hole or a weak justification that undermines the story. Obviously we have to wait to see what actually happens regarding Sasuke, however the ramifications are already apparent (the rookies reactions when he entered the war).

I'd also point out that while some aspects of ninja missions were played down, the violence/potential for death wasn't one of them.



LesExit said:


> ....:0 ......
> 
> Is it because of the badass thuggish nature I give off :33?



You didn't choose the thug life, the thug life chose you.


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## merlina (Apr 7, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> /Shrug, I would consider her dere dere moments to be reasonably straight forward. She also shows a hell of a lot more backbone around Naruto/others than she did around Sasuke in part 1 so I'm ok with her not mirroring her part 1 self ever again. As far as the love letter nin goes; I don't really know/care, I guess you'd have to assume Sakura still isn't really aware of her feelings for Naruto, she can be a bit dense about these things if canon is to be believed.



My read is that if she was in love with him and knew she was in love with him she'd make it clear to him. I believe it's possible that she is being thick and hasn't realized she's in love with him. I still think it would be strange for Kishi to be writing the Hinata scenes as romantically ambiguous as he is if he was going for NaruSaku but it's not impossible, he may just be teasing the fans as some have said. And I don't want to see her return to her part 1 self either. I never said that. Plus, I don't think Good!Sasuke would want that either, if he's still in there. If he's truly hopelessly fallen to evil then obviously SasuSaku isn't happening. I admit that Sasuke's redemption may be partially wishful thinking, but I don't think it's unfounded. If Kishi is writing Sasuke as irredeemable I wouldn't mind NaruSaku (though if he's going NaruSaku I wish he would just go KibaHina and not do this will they won't they only to have Naruto ditch her for Sakura.)



> What is important in the love letter scene for me was her perception of Sasuke (and her reaction when he came back), these were both *highly* negative for SS>



Yes, she's devestated that he's evil. If he stays evil, they won't end up together, if he is redeemed then maybe Kishi will have them reconcile. (I'm trying not to opine too much on this thread, but if he is going for redemption, I actually tend to agree with you that he's taken Sasuke a bit far for it to come off as believable.)



> It has been shown _many_ times that it was Sasuke's own choice to go down this path, the result of this made his chakra so dark. The Sasuke/Gaara comparison is another thing I particularly dislike, Gaara got one chance from Naruto and took it after never knowing what comrades were/anything other than loneliness. Sasuke on the other hand willingly betrayed his comrades even going as far as specifically targeting them for death despite all the times Naruto tried to change his mind. Just reread the Sasuke vs Gaara dialogue at the Summit to have an idea of how different the characters are. /Shrug, the story emphasises not fucking over your comrades, Sasuke did it for years. If he gets out of it without repercussions it'll probably be either a plot hole or a weak justification that undermines the story. Obviously we have to wait to see what actually happens regarding Sasuke, however the ramifications are already apparent (the rookies reactions when he entered the war).



I think the dark chakra Uchiha curse stuff is still unclear. Sasuke and Gaara are by no means a one to one correlation but I still find it telling when it comes to Kishi's redemption theme that Gaara is absolved of all murder by one Naruto TnJ to the point where he can become Kazekage. But, you're right that he's taken it really far with Sasuke.



> I'd also point out that while some aspects of ninja missions were played down, the violence/potential for death wasn't one of them.



It's half and half. Some people die for real but plenty of characters "die" and then don't. It strikes a pretty good balance of stakes/feels and yet it's not super dark.


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## Naiki (Apr 7, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto has respected Hinata since back in their Chuunin exams days, but he has shown a *growing interest* in her as this arc has progressed.  Kishi has  provided the recent interactions between them to develop changes in their relationship. However one wants to view it, their bond has grown stronger, Hinata to Naruto _and_ Naruto to Hinata.



Yes, Naruto has respected Hinata since back in the Chunin exam days but that's all it has ever been; even now. Again, I think you're mistaking his 'growing respect' and image of her as a strong shinobi and companion as a 'growing interest' which it clearly isn't. 

No doubt, their bond has grown stronger, but not in the way that you want it to. It's more platonic than anything. The recent interactions show that they have strong camaraderie feelings for each other and I already explained why the hand-hold incident is an illustration of that. 

It's funny how you brush off an obvious indication of Naruto's lingering feelings for Sakura as comedic, but you refuse to acknowledge that Hinata _was_ there when this was happening thus disproving such a theory of growing interest. It doesn't matter if the moment was made for comic relief or not; that still doesn't prove that Naruto doesn't love Sakura. It sure as hell didn't say that he didn't like her. 

It's pretty obvious that the girlfriend comment was meant to negate the notion that Naruto was developing an interest in Hinata with the hand-hold, even when it wasn't meant to be romantic anyway. So, in other words, Kishimoto took a huge shit on the hand-hold incident between Hinata and Naruto with the girlfriend comment.





> Naruto _did_ attempt his showy persona with Hinata back at the training grounds, but instead he came clean, dropped his act and was straight with her. There was just something honest and special about his relationship with Hinata, even back then, in the beginning.



That exchange wasn't even about his personality, but more about his attitude when it comes to fighting and battling others. We all know that Naruto is naturally a boisterous person in personality. That is a given. However, just because he is boisterous in personality, it doesn't mean that he can't be a bit self conscious at times. 

The context suggests that he wasn't so confident in his upcoming battle with Neji, not that he wasn't confident as a person in personality. I think you read that entire exchange wrong. 




> Not necessarily. That is just another interpretation. As far as I'm going with that scene. Let's agree to disagree, eh?



It's your call. 




> Since the Bijuu revealed Obito's role in his recovery, that's now a given. Still not so sure there's going to be much interaction before Naruto bursts back onto the battlefield. We'll know soon!!



Well, the SOSP did tell Naruto that Obito was nursing him, so I don't see Naruto bursting out quite yet. Obito, Naruto, and Sakura are sucked into the other world. They would have to be sucked out again for Naruto to spring into action. 




> Hinata's desire to be always at Naruto's side, holding his hand after the war is intended to be taken _literally_. *The girl is in love with him--of course she wants him to love her in return! And her confidence in a future (romantic) relationship with him has strengthened as their interactions have progressed.*




Maybe literally, but it doesn't have to be in a romantic sense either and the Connected chapter was a perfect example of that. In fact, she did hold his hand in a platonic way, so why does it always have to be romantically? 

We're never given a hint that Hinata truly desires Naruto to love her back, so that's mere speculation. You also don't have any proof that she is confident in a romantic relationship with him either. In fact, the context suggests that she's more confident in catching up to him in hard work, strength and perseverance. That is what pushes her to move forward, not being in a romantic relationship with him. 

Again, I don't understand where people are getting that it's the idea of being in a romantic relationship that moves her forward. It's the fact that Naruto is always working hard that does it. It even states so in this panel.

That is what's obvious: .



> According to Hinata it was Naruto's _smile_ that saved her--the buoyant positivity of his personality. She adopted his nindo because of her admiration of his indomitable will and determination, but it was that smile that won her heart and saved her from her personal despair.



Exactly. More than anything, her romantic feelings for him are just a branch of her admiration of him. Admiration and love are two different things. Admiration can also be platonic might I also add. 




> Frankly, I find that so obvious that no such panel is needed.



And I already explained why it's not obvious and it's _not_ the case. So, please indulge me with a panel where she states that she wants Naruto to be in love with her too and that's her goal.


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## Tangle (Apr 7, 2014)

The problem with any parings hints in Naruto is that Kishi is a god damn troll that loves to provide fanservice. The reason he hasn't made Naruto answer Hinata's confession etc is because he'd either have to kill NH or kill NS. Really, a pairing where there is a clear indication that both parts are in love with each other is probably Kishi's worst nightmare.


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## Kage (Apr 7, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Is it because of the badass thuggish nature I give off :33?



Hardcore like a marshmallow ｡◕‿‿◕｡



Tangle said:


> The problem with any parings hints in Naruto is that Kishi is a god damn troll that loves to provide fanservice. The reason he hasn't made Naruto answer Hinata's confession etc is because he'd either have to kill NH or kill NS. Really, a pairing where there is a clear indication that both parts are in love with each other is probably Kishi's worst nightmare.



Nah, pretty sure the fanbase cares a lot more than he does.


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 7, 2014)

merlina said:


> My read is that if she was in love with him and knew she was in love with him she'd make it clear to him. I believe it's possible that she is being thick and hasn't realized she's in love with him. I still think it would be strange for Kishi to be writing the Hinata scenes as romantically ambiguous as he is if he was going for NaruSaku but it's not impossible, he may just be teasing the fans as some have said. And I don't want to see her return to her part 1 self either. I never said that. Plus, I don't think Good!Sasuke would want that either, if he's still in there. If he's truly hopelessly fallen to evil then obviously SasuSaku isn't happening. I admit that Sasuke's redemption may be partially wishful thinking, but I don't think it's unfounded. If Kishi is writing Sasuke as irredeemable I wouldn't mind NaruSaku (though if he's going NaruSaku I wish he would just go KibaHina and not do this will they won't they only to have Naruto ditch her for Sakura.)



The Hinata scenes aren't ambiguous though, at least no more so than the NS scenes. If you're going to discount Sakura feeling things for Naruto then you can hardly turn around and say that Naruto has unconfirmed feelings for Hinata. No matter how Kishinev resolves this, someone is going to have to break their unrequited love, people often seem to say that Kishi wouldn't do that to Hinata while not saying anything about the necessity of it happening to Naruto if that situation were to occur.



> Yes, she's devestated that he's evil. If he stays evil, they won't end up together, if he is redeemed then maybe Kishi will have them reconcile. (I'm trying not to opine too much on this thread, but if he is going for redemption, I actually tend to agree with you that he's taken Sasuke a bit far for it to come off as believable.)



My point is that because something has to give right now and Sakura is shown thinking things like this about Sasuke as well as some admittedly ambiguous scenes with Naruto then NS has a stronger position than the other pairings.

Honestly at this point in the story all Sakura needs is to fall out of love with Sasuke and have a flashback of her interaction with Naruto for the subplot to be resolved. Characters have been hinting and focusing on this relationship for quite a while and there is enough interaction there to make it believable when considered by Sakura in a different light.



> I think the dark chakra Uchiha curse stuff is still unclear. Sasuke and Gaara are by no means a one to one correlation but I still find it telling when it comes to Kishi's redemption theme that Gaara is absolved of all murder by one Naruto TnJ to the point where he can become Kazekage. But, you're right that he's taken it really far with Sasuke.



I have to point out that it makes Sakura look really weak when she stays in love with someone who wants to kill her, her closest comrades and her village. There are reasons why people have though Sakura was getting over Sasuke since the beginning of part 2 and from and in-story perspective we're finally seeing what we expected here.



> It's half and half. Some people die for real but plenty of characters "die" and then don't. It strikes a pretty good balance of stakes/feels and yet it's not super dark.



It's pretty damn dark where Sasuke is concerned, I'm wondering if it'll get a bit darker even judging from that team 7 picture.


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## SoulFire (Apr 7, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Naruto has respected Hinata since back in the Chunin exam days but that's all it has ever been; even now. Again, I think you're mistaking his 'growing respect' and image of her as a strong shinobi and companion as a 'growing interest' which it clearly isn't.
> ...


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## merlina (Apr 7, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> The Hinata scenes aren't ambiguous though, at least no more so than the NS scenes. If you're going to discount Sakura feeling things for Naruto then you can hardly turn around and say that Naruto has unconfirmed feelings for Hinata. No matter how Kishinev resolves this, someone is going to have to break their unrequited love, people often seem to say that Kishi wouldn't do that to Hinata while not saying anything about the necessity of it happening to Naruto if that situation were to occur.



What is the point of Naruto holding and squeezing Hinata's hand if she's just a friend? He could have comforted her in a less romantically ambiguous way. She confessed to him, we never saw him reject her, if he doesn't feel the same way he should be friend-zoning her. He's not dumb enough to not understand that holding the hand of a girl who loves you is not a good idea if you're trying to turn her down. 

The most likely answer here is that Naruto is the one moving on from Sakura to Hinata. The whole unrequited love thing is neatly resolved if NaruHina and SasuSaku happen. Otherwise, Hinata ends up alone and Sasuke ends up irredeemably evil or dead. If Kishi is going for the latter, the Hinata handhold and the failfession seem like poor ways to further it.



> My point is that because something has to give right now and Sakura is shown thinking things like this about Sasuke as well as some admittedly ambiguous scenes with Naruto then NS has a stronger position than the other pairings.
> 
> Honestly at this point in the story all Sakura needs is to fall out of love with Sasuke and have a flashback of her interaction with Naruto for the subplot to be resolved. Characters have been hinting and focusing on this relationship for quite a while and there is enough interaction there to make it believable when considered by Sakura in a different light.
> 
> ...



Naruto pointed out that Sakura is still in love with Sasuke despite his willingness to kill her. He says she's lying to herself and he tells Sai how much she loves Sasuke. Naruto himself hasn't fallen out of friendship with Sasuke despite it all either. Does that mean Naruto is weak too?

The team 7 picture implies that he still wants to kill Naruto himself, yes. And yes, Sakura is worried about Sasuke's motives too. There's no proof that she's fallen out of love with him and in love with Naruto yet but I will concede that it is possible that if Sasuke fails to be redeemed then she could. You make it sound like a done deal but I just see it as one possibility and the Hinata stuff I mentioned makes Naruto look like a jerk if he's holding her hand but really hoping to snatch up Sakura once his best friend who he has sworn to never give up on is dead (he claimed he wouldn't kill Sasuke without dying himself) or exiled (would he really give up on chasing Sasuke?).


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 8, 2014)

Hey anyone remember when Sakura was saving her other friends life too?


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## Schweinsteiger (Apr 8, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Hey anyone remember when Sakura was saving her other friends life too?



Wow you really trying to downplay Sakura's bond with Naruto.  I like how Sakura says "we're", and this is viz.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 8, 2014)

We're so close as in, almost to his father.

And I never said she didn't have a bond with Naruto.
I just used Shikamaru as an example of her caring about her close friends.


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## shurei (Apr 8, 2014)

Schweinsteiger said:


> Guess I ship narusaku, with 631 and the cpr I think it will most likely happen.
> And shouldn't sasukarin be in here?


I asked the mods about adding SK to this thread since we once had another pairing listed but it was removed. I would love to have a SK vs SS thread.


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 8, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> Hey anyone remember when Sakura was saving her other friends life too?



I again find it hilarious that you used a panel that shows Sakura inadvertently thinking about Naruto first ahead of everyone else .



merlina said:


> What is the point of Naruto holding and squeezing Hinata's hand if she's just a friend? He could have comforted her in a less romantically ambiguous way. She confessed to him, we never saw him reject her, if he doesn't feel the same way he should be friend-zoning her. He's not dumb enough to not understand that holding the hand of a girl who loves you is not a good idea if you're trying to turn her down.



You are aware he does go on to hold the hands of everyone else too right? That does tend to colour my impression of that scene. Also Naruto has been dense concerning Hinata for most of the manga, I wouldn't put it past Kishi to bring that back. 

But really this works for NS too; why would Sakura act in a romantically ambiguous way towards Naruto if she doesn't feel the something for him? Again I have to say that hugging>hand holding by a pretty large amount, then you throw in stuff like feeding him ramen.

Finally NS really pulls ahead in terms of common shounen couple traits, the amount of tropes it hits is rather staggering now. 



> The most likely answer here is that Naruto is the one moving on from Sakura to Hinata. The whole unrequited love thing is neatly resolved if NaruHina and SasuSaku happen. Otherwise, Hinata ends up alone and Sasuke ends up irredeemably evil or dead. If Kishi is going for the latter, the Hinata handhold and the failfession seem like poor ways to further it.



Doesn't really hold up with Naruto's joke to Minato about Sakura being his girlfriend though does it? That is hardly the actions of someone who now loves Hinata instead of Sakura. I'm not sure why you think Hinata and Sasuke ending up with someone is important; Hinata has always been a side character defined by her love for Naruto (this doesn't mean she has to end up with him, but it will be addressed). Sasuke on the other hand has shown absolutely zero interest in romance for the duration of the manga. Also I can't imagine Sasuke ending up any way other than redeemed at this stage, although there are several possibilities within that. 

People seem to act like it's this horrible thing for Naruto if Sakura moves on from Sasuke because his actions. I mean what the actual fuck is with that viewpoint? Sasuke was batshit insane and tried to kill Sakura and her comrades several times and he is never going to go back to who he was in Konoha even if he gets redeemed. Sakura has only shown love for _who he was_ back then, combine that with all of them being 13 at the time and I have no problem labeling Sakura's continued love for Sasuke as delusional.

The failfession simply did not address Naruto's viewpoint. If you want to end NS then you're going to need Naruto to switch his feelings and from what we've seen he still loves Sakura.



> Naruto pointed out that Sakura is still in love with Sasuke despite his willingness to kill her. He says she's lying to herself and he tells Sai how much she loves Sasuke. Naruto himself hasn't fallen out of friendship with Sasuke despite it all either. Does that mean Naruto is weak too?



I also find the continued Naruto/Sasuke bond distasteful, Naruto seems to forget his other bonds in pursuit of Sasuke sometimes. At least here we have evidence that the bond still exists on Sasuke's side, which is a major point in Naruto's favour. Not only that but for most of the manga Naruto has the emotional and physical strength to deal with Sasuke after his defection, Sakura on the other hand has a few too many examples where this wasn't the case.



> The team 7 picture implies that he still wants to kill Naruto himself, yes. And yes, Sakura is worried about Sasuke's motives too. There's no proof that she's fallen out of love with him and in love with Naruto yet but I will concede that it is possible that if Sasuke fails to be redeemed then she could. You make it sound like a done deal but I just see it as one possibility and the Hinata stuff I mentioned makes Naruto look like a jerk if he's holding her hand but really hoping to snatch up Sakura once his best friend who he has sworn to never give up on is dead (he claimed he wouldn't kill Sasuke without dying himself) or exiled (would he really give up on chasing Sasuke?).



There's no proof anyone has fallen out of love with anyone. However when one party is looking like Sakura when she thinks about Sasuke I find that a pretty strong clue as to which way it's going. Conversely Naruto seems fine/happy when he thinks about Sakura and similarly for Hinata->Naruto.

Naruto isn't a jerk if he was just encouraging his comrade when he grabbed Hinata's hand. This is a pretty common argument for NH (that Naruto is a jerk if he doesn't reciprocate) and it's utterly distasteful. If I were to make the same argument about Sakura and Naruto, what would you think?


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 8, 2014)

It's not that he's a jerk if he doesn't reciprocate, it's the fact that he's giving her all these hopes and shit, and being able to sense people's feelings, you'd think he'd know that.
He'd be a jerk if he gave her false hopes and dropped her.
Not if he just didn't reciprocate. If he treated her like a friend, or someone who he wasn't trying to get too close with, she wouldn't be getting high hopes, like he's giving her. So you can drop that.

And as for Sakura, Naruto has known about her love for Sasuke, she has NOT given him some sense of false hope, and each time he HAS gone to try and flirt with her, she's put him in his place. ERGO the headbutt, and every other time someone mentioned her being his 'girlfriend'.


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 8, 2014)

MichaelInsanity said:


> It's not that he's a jerk if he doesn't reciprocate, it's the fact that he's giving her all these hopes and shit, and being able to sense people's feelings, you'd think he'd know that.
> He'd be a jerk if he gave her false hopes and dropped her.
> Not if he just didn't reciprocate. If he treated her like a friend, or someone who he wasn't trying to get too close with, she wouldn't be getting high hopes, like he's giving her. So you can drop that.



Ah yes, first Naruto was a jerk for not answering Hinata's confession.

The he was a jerk for making a joke about Sakura being his girlfriend to his dad.

*snip*



> And as for Sakura, Naruto has known about her love for Sasuke, she has NOT given him some sense of false hope, and each time he HAS gone to try and flirt with her, she's put him in his place. ERGO the headbutt, and every other time someone mentioned her being his 'girlfriend'.



Naruto hasn't tried to flirt with Sakura in a long time (read; Naruto's conversation with Sai). Most of the Sakura->Naruto moments we've seen have actually been started by Sakura rather than being in response to Naruto flirting with her. As far as her hitting Naruto when referred to as his girlfriend; that's a pretty common trait in future shounen couples and really shouldn't be used against the chances of NS .

This whole 'false hope' argument is bullshit tbh as all of these moments are ambiguous in nature.


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## emachina (Apr 8, 2014)

Can someone point out to me when and where Sakura admitted she loved Naruto, and it wasn't a lie? I mean, if NH shippers overblow moments, such as the hand holding scene, where's the big moment for Sakura? I keep reading people saying Naruto doesn't reciprocate Hinata's feelings for him. Well, I don't see Sakura reciprocating any romantic love for Naruto. Not trying to be a jerk, and I'm sorry if I come across that way. But, this issue does seem to be an elephant in the room for NS.


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## merlina (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> snip



I came into this thread to point out some nuance with the tsundere thing. Since then we've entered dead horse territory with the who's showing who affection with what motives that's already been covered so much earlier in this thread that I don't feel I need to repeat counter arguments that already exist. If anyone else feels like taking up the current discussion with Mr. Horrible, feel free to jump on in.


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## Mr Horrible (Apr 9, 2014)

No spoilers outside of the telegrams until ~Sunday, even if they are tagged.


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## Naiki (Apr 9, 2014)

merlina said:


> I came into this thread to point out some nuance with the tsundere thing. Since then we've entered dead horse territory with the who's showing who affection with what motives that's already been covered so much earlier in this thread that I don't feel I need to repeat counter arguments that already exist. If anyone else feels like taking up the current discussion with Mr. Horrible, feel free to jump on in.



I'm feeling the same way. Repeating the same counter arguments isn't going to get you anywhere. I may as well just take my past post and re-post it again.


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## Naiki (Apr 9, 2014)

SoulFire! said:
			
		

> Quote Here


 

Let me just keep this short since we're debating the same material over again. I despise repeating counter arguments that I have used several times before (with manga panels, may I add). Here goes:


You mistakenly misconstrue the progressive development between Naruto and Hinata as some type of romantic development, when that's clearly not it. Hinata's goal is to earn her way next to Naruto's side, not romantically I would assume since it's *never* been HInata's goal to be Naruto's girlfriend, but rather for him to acknowledge her strength. It has always been Hinata's dream to catch up to Naruto, whatever that might be, and to earn his respect. Naruto has just learned to respect Hinata as someone strong, not someone who gives up easy e.g. a weak person. Naruto's recently developed respect for Hinata is not romantic development, SoulFire.

Naruto going from thinking that she is some type of spineless crybaby to falling in love with her depletes the meaning behind her development. You have to crawl before you walk and Naruto has to come to respect her first before he can fall in love with her. That's the process of developing from a generally negative impression of someone to a generally positive one.

It's not normal to fall in love with someone that you don't really respect. Naruto has to come to respect Hinata before there can possibly be the openhandedness to romance developing. 

Hinata's development consists of Naruto respecting her as a person as well as catching up to him. If Naruto never gains respect for her (platonic), but instead falls in love with her, what would be the point of her character development all of this time?

As of right now, it wouldn't fit for Naruto to fall for Hinata because that's not the purpose of what her character or her development is for. 

 Her goal is to move forward and get stronger. She wants to be by his side in strength, which explains why she always draws inspiration from him. That is why she was able to go all the way with the Hakke 64 Fists in that panel. That is the point of her development. It is for her to receive the recognition and respect from Naruto that she always strives to receive, not for Naruto to fall in love with her.

Here's another section explaining why I think Naruto's respect for Hinata is being misconstrued.

It's not just the idea that Naruto is spurring on her advance in technique because of this 'signal', but it's more because she wants to stand by Naruto's side in hard work and strength. She even states that she was always by his side, striving to work hard and become stronger, just as he has. 

Even in her confession, she states that she always used to cry and give up, but it was because of Naruto that she was able to go down the right path, . She also goes on to say that Naruto showed her the right way through seeing him work hard and never give up, which changed her. . Then, she goes on saying that she has always wanted to walk with him and she was always chasing after him (I'm guessing in terms of having guts and never giving up). This also further explains what she means when she says she wants to stand beside him, again, showing that it isn't necessarily romantic. 

Yes, Hinata is always motivated by Naruto to never give up and to keep pushing forwards which is what urges her to do her best. Her goal was never to be Naruto's girlfriend/lover, but her goal was to catch up to him and learn to never give up.

_The Hinata ---> Naruto relationship does not have a romantic foundation._ Her _admiration_ for Naruto due to his guts and his perseverance eventually evolved into love, yes, but _love or romance is not the foundation behind their relationship_. So, _Naruto is her beacon of confidence when it comes to working hard and never giving up _and her rock. That's pretty much the relationship between the two. 

What is spurring her on is that she wants to strive to do the best that she can, just as Naruto does. There is no 'signal' that Naruto secretly loves her spurring her on. _What's spurring her on is Naruto, himself, and his drive to push forward._ Just as it has always been. Just because Naruto has begun to acknowledge and respect her antics to become stronger doesn't mean that she's 'trying to get her man' because she's showing the drive to get stronger and protect Naruto just as she has always done. 

_With that logic, you could say she was 'trying to get her man' when she jumped in to protect Naruto from Pein_, and _even then, Naruto had never showed her any respect, acknowledgement, or given such a 'signal'._ So, the _argument that she is acting in confidence and believing that Naruto is beginning to become romantically interested in her is invalid. _

I do agree about Naruto not being subtle about Hinata. Naruto is pretty unsubtle about who he likes if you ask me. He is being subtle to Hinata in a platonic way; just like the rest of the rookies. 

The sentences with the italics are emphasized more.


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## Scila9 (Apr 9, 2014)

emachina said:


> Can someone point out to me when and where Sakura admitted she loved Naruto, and it wasn't a lie? I mean, if NH shippers overblow moments, such as the hand holding scene, where's the big moment for Sakura? I keep reading people saying Naruto doesn't reciprocate Hinata's feelings for him. Well, I don't see Sakura reciprocating any romantic love for Naruto. Not trying to be a jerk, and I'm sorry if I come across that way. But, this issue does seem to be an elephant in the room for NS.


There have been no confessions other than Sakura's both awful and Hinata's. I think everyone acknowledges that.

However, many believe (myself included) that Sakura was telling the truth when she told Naruto she loves him (either platonicly or romanticly) and that she was lying to herself about wanting to give up on Sasuke. Because Sakura's not a 'fool' like Naruto and realizes that letting go of Sasuke is the 'smart' thing to do, and because she didn't want Naruto to get himself hurt/killed chasing Sasuke anymore. 

Sai's (somewhat) unintentional guilt trip greatly influenced her decision in that arc. She felt like the whole Team 7 mess was her fault and she had to try to fix it (by killing Sasuke). Much like Kakashi in the same arc felt like the whole Team 7 mess was _his_ fault and that _he_ had to try to fix it (by killing Sasuke). It's like everyone besides Naruto decided to play the self-blame game and try to kill Sasuke for the 'greater good'.

Anyway, no, NS does not have a good, clearly romantic confession with no issues *cough*Sasuke*cough* smack dab in the middle of it.



Naiki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really believe Hinata's feelings have more of a romantic inclination than you think. The way you put it makes it sound like Naruto is to Hinata as Sasuke is to Naruto 

Not that this has a point, but after your post made me think "Naruto is Hinata's Sasuke?" I remembered this.



Naruto is a big part of Hinata's character. She wouldn't be who she is if it weren't for him. I know you can say that for nearly all the characters, but Hinata did say "I love you" and outside a romantic confession that's rather rare in Japan, even for family. So for Hinata to say it to Naruto is really pretty huge. This is one reason I don't disregard Sakura's confession either.

Also, I don't think Naruto's respect for Hinata is a recent thing. I think he got that back during the Chunin Exam. Around the preliminaries when she stood up against Neji. Since then it's been growing. I do agree with you that Naruto's respect growing is not romantic development.


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## SoulFire (Apr 9, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > You mistakenly misconstrue the progressive development between Naruto and Hinata as some type of romantic development, when that's clearly not it. Hinata's goal is to earn her way next to Naruto's side, not romantically I would assume since it's *never* been HInata's goal to be Naruto's girlfriend, but rather for him to acknowledge her strength. It has always been Hinata's dream to catch up to Naruto, whatever that might be, and to earn his respect. Naruto has just learned to respect Hinata as someone strong, not someone who gives up easy e.g. a weak person. Naruto's recently developed respect for Hinata is not romantic development, SoulFire.
> ...


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## Naiki (Apr 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I don't feel that I misconstrue anything. Hinata romantically loves Naruto and has said as much. Perhaps she did not dare to hope that she had the chance to be at his side (in a romantic sense) earlier in her life, but by the time Naruto had *returned from his time with Jiraiya, she was already beginning to think about telling him something...but she wasn't yet ready.* She expressed this right before their first post ts meeting. I think she wanted to tell him of her feelings:




That is just speculation. There is no indication that she was going to tell him that she loved him. Maybe she was trying to figure out a way to approach him and say "welcome back"? Just because she was trying to figure out a way to approach him and what to say to him doesn't mean that she was trying to give a love confession.




> As The Webbster said (and I, myself, said in my earlier post), Naruto came to respect Hinata back in their Chuunin exam days. He has respected her as a person and fellow shinobi for a long time--*and I don't think that he ever viewed her as a 'spineless crybaby'. *He likes her, as well. *With the knowledge of just how deep her feelings are for him, falling in love with her could be the next step.*




I didn't say that Naruto viewed her as a spineless crybaby. What I meant was that Hinata more than likely didn't want Naruto to view her as such. That would explain why she kept getting up during her fight with Neji. She didn't want to look bad in front of the person she admired (Naruto): , 

Also, according to the beginning, Naruto thought she was weird. So, no, he never always liked her. 



Naruto has known that Hinata loved him since the Pein arc, which was 100+ chapters ago. He didn't express interest in her then, so it wouldn't make sense for him to begin this late now. 





> I leave it to Kishimoto to show us what the purpose of Hinata's character/development is for. It just might fit very well for Naruto to fall for Hinata at this stage of their lives.




If that were so, Naruto would've begun to fall in love with her a long time ago. Hell, even during the Chunin exams when he saw how tough she was, Naruto could've fallen in love with her. 





> Hinata wants to stand by Naruto's side always, sharing in all aspects of his life. I think that her statement of having always been by his side harkens back to his thanking her for being there as he held her hand.




You don't have proof that she wants to share all aspects of his life. It's just mere speculation and assumption on your part. as for the always being by his side, I think it goes back to her always believing in him when everyone thought he was a fool since the academy. 




> Sorry, just don't see it that way at all. The NH relationship is founded on their respect and admiration for one another's personal qualities, but I feel that it has progressed further, especially during this war arc.




That's basically what I just said. 

 NH is not founded on romance. Respect and Admiration isn't romance. On another note, NH is founded on Hinata's respect and admiration for Naruto's personal qualities. Naruto has never drawn confidence from Hinata except once. Hinata is the one that needs to development in that area, not Naruto.





> I don't know that I would consider all that Hinata has done for Naruto's sake as 'antics' or an attempt 'to get her man'. She did what she did in facing Pain to save the one she loved. No strings attached, no reply to her confession expected. Even so, * I expect Naruto to eventually address Hinata's love confession--but only after the business of war at hand has passed.
> *
> Naruto has shown his respect and acknowledgement of Hinata throughout this war arc. They have definitely been connecting with one another in their interactions in ways that *can be construed as romantic.*




It would be completely out of place for Naruto to respond to a confession made more than 200+ chapters ago. Atleast Naruto responded to Sakura's confession, but he made no response whatsoever to Hinata's. If he didn't do it when he had the chance, why would he do it now? 

 Their 'romantic' platonic interactions were completely overridden by Naruto still thinking of Sakura as a girlfriend. 

If it's romantic, I'm sure Naruto doesn't interpret it as such. 




> Naruto relates to Hinata in a way apart from the way he relates to anyone else, rookies included. As I said before, Hinata always brings out a quieter, more introspective side of Naruto. There's something special and different in the way they connect. Doesn't feel all that platonic to me.



He isn't always like that around Hinata. , this panel you posted demonstrates that. It seems to me like Naruto only gets quiet around Hinata because she also exudes that type of atmosphere. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's romantic because I do that when I'm around a certain friend with a certain aura about them.

When I'm with my quiet friends, I'm quiet too. When I'm with my loud friends, I'm loud. It's more like fitting in. Doesn't look special or romantic to me. It's normal human behavior.


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## SoulFire (Apr 10, 2014)

Naiki said:


> That is just speculation. There is no indication that she was going to tell him that she loved him. Maybe she was trying to figure out a way to approach him and say "welcome back"? Just because she was trying to figure out a way to approach him and what to say to him doesn't mean that she was trying to give a love confession.



Of course it is speculation. This entire thread is about speculation, but the one thing that I _don't_ consider speculation is the fact  stated by Hinata herself that she loves Naruto. Not simply admires; not just respects him. She _loves _him. 

Hinata may not have thought she had a chance with Naruto prior to the events surrounding the Pain invasion, but that has definitely changed as the war arc has progressed. She has confidently told herself that she will be walking with him, holding his had after this war is over. I believe that it is something that she has sensed in Naruto's interactions with her that has buoyed her confidence to this extent. I do not think she is talking about being a good buddy. She is thinking romantically. 



> *I didn't say that Naruto viewed her as a spineless crybaby.* What I meant was that Hinata more than likely didn't want Naruto to view her as such.



Maybe you meant something different, but it kinda looks like that is exactly what you said: 

_'Naruto going from thinking that she is some type of spineless crybaby to falling in love with her depletes the meaning behind her development. You have to crawl before you walk and Naruto has to come to respect her first before he can fall in love with her.'_

The above reads that Naruto has thought of Hinata a spineless crybaby whom he needs to come to respect before he can fall in love with her. 



> That would explain why she kept getting up during her fight with Neji. She didn't want to look bad in front of the person she admired (Naruto).



That is stating the obvious. And has nothing to do with Naruto needing to come to respect her (which I contend he already does and has done from all the way back to your examples).



> Also, according to the beginning, Naruto thought she was weird. So, no, he never always liked her.



I never indicated that Naruto _always_ liked Hinata, but he never disliked her, either--he was just perplexed by her behavior, which to his twelve year old way of thinking was weird. He didn't realize that she was a shy girl who liked him--he probably suspected she looked away because she disliked him (like everyone else). None the less, Naruto did grow to respect _and_ like Hinata back then and he continues to do so. Does he love her? Maybe not yet, but the possibility is definitely there.



> Naruto has known that Hinata loved him since the Pein arc, which was 100+ chapters ago. He didn't express interest in her then, so it wouldn't make sense for him to begin this late now. It would be completely out of place for Naruto to respond to a confession made more than 200+ chapters ago. Atleast Naruto responded to Sakura's confession, but he made no response whatsoever to Hinata's. If he didn't do it when he had the chance, why would he do it now?



No matter how many hundred chapters ago it was, within Naruto's time line it was not all that far in the past (look at how many years and chapters our time this present night of war has taken). Imo the main reason we have not seen Naruto respond lies with Kishi and not Naruto. He was no where near ready to set pairings in stone at that point and in fact used the Pain arc as a starting point for his part two pairing developments. We don't even know for sure that Naruto has not spoken with Hinata prior to leaving for Turtle Island. Kishi leaves few loose ends, often tying them up long after they were initiated. 



> If that were so, Naruto would've begun to fall in love with her a long time ago. Hell, even during the Chunin exams when he saw how tough she was, Naruto could've fallen in love with her.



Naruto did not interact with Hinata that often--they were on different teams and the teams did not work together. He liked her enough to wonder if she saw him defeat Neji, but everything changed once Orochimaru and the Sand attacked. Naruto had a new agenda (powering up and saving Sasuke) that captured his attention. 



> You don't have proof that she wants to share all aspects of his life. It's just mere speculation and assumption on your part.



I consider Hinata desiring to be beside him hand in hand after the war as proof enough, given that she is in love with him.



> NH is not founded on romance. Respect and Admiration isn't romance. On another note, NH is founded on Hinata's respect and admiration for Naruto's personal qualities. Naruto has never drawn confidence from Hinata except once. Hinata is the one that needs to development in that area, not Naruto.


 
Respect and admiration and liking someone are stepping stones to romance. Naruto and Hinata have drawn confidence from one another at different times when each of them needed it from the other. 



> Their 'romantic' platonic interactions were completely overridden by Naruto still thinking of Sakura as a girlfriend.



Not in my opinion.



> If it's romantic, I'm sure Naruto doesn't interpret it as such.


 
That is speculation on your part.



> He isn't always like that around Hinata. , this panel you posted demonstrates that.



This scene is Naruto meeting Hinata after not seeing her in almost three years, asking her why she was hiding and then reacting in surprise to her faint. It is just a series of simple interactions made to show the readers that Hinata's feelings for Naruto remained and to set up an homage to the anime. Don't see the point.


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## Naiki (Apr 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Of course it is speculation. This entire thread is about speculation, but the one thing that I _don't_ consider speculation is the fact  stated by Hinata herself that she loves Naruto. Not simply admires; not just respects him. She _loves _him.



Please understand that I am not arguing that Hinata doesn't love Naruto. That much I am aware of and that is not the basis of my argument. What I am countering is the argument that Hinata is feeling confident in pursuing a romantic relationship with Naruto when there is no evidence of such. 

It's alright for you to speculate that she is doing so, which is what a debate thread is for, but there is no evidence of such a thing. 




> Hinata may not have thought she had a chance with Naruto prior to the events surrounding the Pain invasion, but that has definitely changed as the war arc has progressed. She has confidently told herself that she will be walking with him, holding his had after this war is over.* I believe that it is something that she has sensed in Naruto's interactions with her that has buoyed her confidence to this extent. I do not think she is talking about being a good buddy. She is thinking romantically. *



There is no evidence that she is speaking in a romantic sense and I have evidence backing up that she isn't speaking romantically. The way she was talking when she drew inspiration from Naruto should suggest that she isn't speaking in a romantic sense. 

My point is that she states that she has always been by his side and 'walking with him', hasn't she? And it was never in a romantic sense, so why do you suppose that she is speaking in a romantic sense when it's clearly hinted that she is speaking about camaraderie? 

This  clearly shows that she wants to continue being by his side and protecting him just as she has always been.




> Maybe you meant something different, but it kinda looks like that is exactly what you said:
> 
> _'Naruto going from thinking that she is some type of spineless crybaby to falling in love with her depletes the meaning behind her development. You have to crawl before you walk and Naruto has to come to respect her first before he can fall in love with her.'_
> 
> The above reads that Naruto has thought of Hinata a spineless crybaby whom he needs to come to respect before he can fall in love with her.




I was arguing from what I interpreted as Hinata's POV. I wasn't arguing that Naruto saw her that way, but perhaps that was how Hinata saw it as given the context. I was explaining the development for Hinata in Hinata's own point of view if that makes sense. 




> That is stating the obvious. And has nothing to do with Naruto needing to come to respect her (which I contend he already does and has done from all the way back to your examples).




You're not understanding my argument. My argument is that Hinata has appeared to want Naruto's respect which is why I gave the example of her getting up when fighting Neji. She doesn't want to look bad in front of her admirer and wants to gain the respect of someone who has finally 'looking at her'. 




> I never indicated that Naruto _always_ liked Hinata, but he never disliked her, either--*he was just perplexed by her behavior, which to his twelve year old way of thinking was weird. *He didn't realize that she was a shy girl who liked him--he probably suspected she looked away because she disliked him (like everyone else). None the less, Naruto did grow to respect _and_ like Hinata back then and he continues to do so. Does he love her? Maybe not yet, but the possibility is definitely there.




He didn't state that her behavior was weird. He obviously called *her* a weirdo, not her behavior. Calling someone a weirdo clearly indicates a negative feeling for said person. 




> No matter how many hundred chapters ago it was, within Naruto's time line it was not all that far in the past (look at how many years and chapters our time this present night of war has taken).* Imo the main reason we have not seen Naruto respond lies with Kishi and not Naruto*. He was no where near ready to set pairings in stone at that point and in fact used the Pain arc as a starting point for his part two pairing developments. We don't even know for sure that Naruto has not spoken with Hinata prior to leaving for Turtle Island. Kishi leaves few loose ends, often tying them up long after they were initiated.




Well, Naruto's the character, isn't he? Not Kishimoto. If Kishimoto wanted to make something romantic develop between NH, he would've had Naruto respond to the confession like he did Sakura's. The difference between Sakura and Hinata's confession is that Naruto actually gave a response to it where he doesn't believe that Sakura loves him. This doesn't mean that he doesn't love Sakura, but it means that he wants her to come to him with genuine feelings. 

With Hinata, it's clear that he basically brushed off her love confession and only slightly touched on it when he referred to her bearing strong but still never touched on her love confession either. Naruto indirectly rejected Hinata's love. If he were open to reciprocating, he would've at least tried to give her an answer. 

Naruto doesn't feel the same way. 

That's why he hasn't answered it yet and I don't think he will answer it until there is clarification that he feels the same way. On the other hand, he already addressed the confession and it wasn't in a romantic way. He answered the act of her jumping in, not her love itself. 




> Naruto did not interact with Hinata that often--they were on different teams and the teams did not work together. He liked her enough to wonder if she saw him defeat Neji, but everything changed once Orochimaru and the Sand attacked. Naruto had a new agenda (powering up and saving Sasuke) that captured his attention.




This is exactly why I don't see the whole NH thing working. They barely know anything about each other. Hinata doesn't take interest in Naruto's dream to become Hokage, has never sympathized with his painful childhood, and they barely interact. 

Hell, they don't even have the same chemistry as NS. 

It's clear that everything about Hinata only revolves around one aspect about Naruto: his determination and strength, but nothing about Naruto as a whole. Sakura, atleast, was able to acknowldege Naruto's childhood, understanding of his bond with Sasuke and the importance of bonds to him, his desire to become Hokage, as well as his strength and determination. Sakura understands Naruto better than Hinata does that makes for a better pairing. 

However, that is only *one* aspect of Hinata. The only thing she understands about him is his drive to never give up, but that's just one 'tiny' part of his character. That isn't enough to completely understand him. Also, Naruto understands nothing about Hinata except the same thing about strength and determination.

Thus is the role of being a side character. 




> I consider Hinata desiring to be beside him hand in hand after the war as proof enough, given that she is in love with him.




I already addressed why this is just speculation with no evidence above. 




> Respect and admiration and liking someone are stepping stones to romance. Naruto and Hinata have drawn confidence from one another at different times when each of them needed it from the other.




Well, the same thing can be said about Sakura, can't it? Sakura respects, admires, and likes Naruto. This was touched on in the very beginning of Shippuden and Sakura has shown more romantic inclination towards Naruto than Naruto has *ever* shown to Hinata. Heck, she was even admiring his physical appearance, too, which indicates possible physical attraction. 



Naruto never even made a reference to Hinata's appearance at at in contrast to Sakura. Naruto isn't physically attracted to her. 




> This scene is Naruto meeting Hinata after not seeing her in almost three years, asking her why she was hiding and then reacting in surprise to her faint. It is just a series of simple interactions made to show the readers that Hinata's feelings for Naruto remained and to set up an homage to the anime. Don't see the point.




But he isn't 'specially' introspective, like you claim he is, right?


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## SoulFire (Apr 12, 2014)

> Naiki said:
> 
> 
> > Please understand that I am not arguing that Hinata doesn't love Naruto. That much I am aware of and that is not the basis of my argument. What I am countering is the argument that Hinata is feeling confident in pursuing a romantic relationship with Naruto when there is no evidence of such. It's alright for you to speculate that she is doing so, which is what a debate thread is for, but there is no evidence of such a thing.
> ...


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 15, 2014)

Oh god.
The fact that Hinata said "Wait for me!" is enough.
She doesn't want him to wait for her to be friends.
She wants to be with him romantically. Her whole development revolves around him motivating her to be better than people see her. It's admiration and respect, yes, but it's also love for him and she wants to be WITH him. 
By his side.
There's no deeper hidden meaning behind it. It's just that. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## Schweinsteiger (Apr 15, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Oh god.
> The fact that Hinata said "Wait for me!" is enough.
> She doesn't want him to wait for her to be friends.
> She wants to be with him romantically. Her whole development revolves around him motivating her to be better than people see her. It's admiration and respect, yes, but it's also love for him and she wants to be WITH him.
> ...



Your putting to much importance in a side character's feelings.
If a couple does happen its going to be the girl Naruto likes for the whole manga.


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## LesExit (Apr 15, 2014)

Schweinsteiger said:


> Your putting to much importance in a side character's feelings.
> If a couple does happen its going to be the girl Naruto likes for the whole manga.


I think thats true to a certain extent. It's a very crappy way of writing in this genre, that whatever the hero wants he'll get  However how a writer depicts the importance of a side-characters feelings mean something. Clearly Hinata's feelings for Naruto were given incredibly more focus than Ino's to Sasuke's, or Lee's to Sakura's.

There are ways to write side-characters feelings in unimportant ways, and important ways. Kishi's best bet with making Hinata's feeling unimportant was to keep her feelings at admiration level at best as we went into Part 2, he however didn't and kept putting serious focus on Hinata's feelings. 

Of course Kishimoto could still do the crappy, "lol whatever, side characters are just there to watch and cheer on the hero, while he gets whatever he wants just cause he's the main star! I wrote a character like Hinata that loves and understands Naruto to please pairing fans " It'd be crappy, and could happen, but really doesn't seem likely. I think Kishi's wanted direction in the story as far as romance goes has been clear for a while. We just have to get over all the fighting stuff, and the pairings will be made canon.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 16, 2014)

Schweinsteiger said:


> Your putting to much importance in a side character's feelings.
> If a couple does happen its going to be the girl Naruto likes for the whole manga.


Lol no I'm not.
An author doesn't make a certain character say a list of things, have one of them happen as foreshadowing, and then leave the rest to just NOT happen.
It's shitty writing at best.
He's foreshadowed it. And she wants to be WITH him. Not as his friend. 
And yes, his opinion matters, but the fact remains, he's still Naruto, not a mind control expert, and that being said, the characters developed to cater TO him are what matter as well. Not JUST his OWN feelings, which, remain ambiguous at this current moment.


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## Megu-Nee (Apr 16, 2014)

hahaha michealinsanity your name change is


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## Xusasu Basasu (Apr 18, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Lol no I'm not.
> An author doesn't make a certain character say a list of things, have one of them happen as foreshadowing, and then leave the rest to just NOT happen.
> It's shitty writing at best.
> He's foreshadowed it. And she wants to be WITH him. Not as his friend.
> And yes, his opinion matters, but the fact remains, he's still Naruto, not a mind control expert, and that being said, the characters developed to cater TO him are what matter as well. Not JUST his OWN feelings, which, remain ambiguous at this current moment.



I don't see the point in denying Hinata's romantic inclination towards Naruto nor her desire to become his girlfriend/wife. This denotes insecurity from the Naruto/Sakura side IMO which tries to convince itself that her character development is separate from her romantic love for Naruto, which couldn't be further from the truth. Denying the nature of her desire is pointless though, and for a rather simple reason.

It's nice to want things. I'm very glad for Hinata that she wants to be Naruto's girlfriend and that it's apparently her great ambition in life. There's one little problem though: she's not the focal character of the story. The rest of the narrative isn't supposed to twist and turn to satisfy Hinata's desire and things aren't going to happen just because she wishes them to. To take a rather simple example explaining my point: Kiba wants to become Hokage and thinks Naruto is his rival. I'm pretty sure Kiba is in way over his head, and that he's never going to become Hokage or rival Naruto in anything ever. 

I know that the tried and tested rebuttal will be to call Kiba a "comic relief" character and that he couldn't possibly be compared to Hinata who's so much more important and serious. I don't see it. Both are support characters with rather shallow charaterizations who have expressed their thoughts and ambitions during the course of this war arc. The only difference is Hinata is vastly more popular, but this certainly doesn't set anything in stone when it comes to future developments.

The key thing that determines the endgame pairing here is Naruto's side of the equation. You call it ambiguous, personally based on precedents established in the story I see no reason to question Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura and I consider that a damning indictment for Naruto/Hinata.


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## LesExit (Apr 18, 2014)

Xusasu Basasu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once Kishimoto starts treating Kiba's dream to become Hokage seriously, I'll take it serious to the plot. I refuse to believe literary wise you actually think the attention on Kiba's Hokage dream compares to Hinata's focus on her feelings for Naruto, and rather you're just trying to bring down the clear significant importance Hinata's feelings have been given.

If Kishimoto is so set on having NS happen, why is he not changing the way Sakura acts around him? Kishimoto has had so many moments to turn Sakura's actions to him intertwined with a girl falling for him actions...and he hasn't. Why? He doesn't want Sakura to be in love with Naruto. Yet once the war ends Sakura's just gonna come around, fickle as she is, and fall for Naruto because he's the main hero? This is bad writing. You do not write character developments how ever you want then throw two characters together because, well the main character had feelings for her I've barely developed. You must show the development between them reaching that romantic level, though Kishi has intentionally not written this development. I was somewhat shocked, I thought we'd get something NS wise in this war romantically, was even expecting some kind of intimate thoughts during the CPR, or when Naruto woke up maybe, just to balance out the NH and NS development if anything, but nothing. Plot wise there has to be a reason for this. Sakura does not love Naruto, and does not want to be his girlfriend. Naruto has not thought about Sakura in a serious romantic way in an incredibly long time, and has been developing with a girl who he knows loves him in a solely positive way.

I think at this point what's holding up the NS pairing is holding on to the fact that Naruto has never outright stated, "I'm over you Sakura-chan" and because of this he must still be in love with Sakura and therefore all of his intimate developments with Hinata must be platonic. Many NH fans are holding onto a more 'show don't tell' opinion, where Naruto not showing any serious romantic thoughts for Sakura and him having intimate developments during the war with Hinata, show that Naruto's feelings had to have changed. I agree with this, Naruto's actions don't agree with Naruto holding serious romantic feelings for Sakura, I think Naruto has to have moved on from Sakura at this point for his interactions with Hinata to make sense, cause platonic hand-holding with a girl who loves you just sounds... 
idk maybe NS will get some moment soon the negates everything else.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Once Kishimoto starts treating Kiba's dream to become Hokage seriously, I'll take it serious to the plot. I refuse to believe literary wise you actually think the attention on Kiba's Hokage dream compares to Hinata's focus on her feelings for Naruto, and rather you're just trying to bring down the clear significant importance Hinata's feelings have been given.
> 
> If Kishimoto is so set on having NS happen, why is he not changing the way Sakura acts around him? Kishimoto has had so many moments to turn Sakura's actions to him intertwined with a girl falling for him actions...and he hasn't. Why? He doesn't want Sakura to be in love with Naruto. Yet once the war ends Sakura's just gonna come around, fickle as she is, and fall for Naruto because he's the main hero? This is bad writing. You do not write character developments how ever you want then throw two characters together because, well the main character had feelings for her I've barely developed. You must show the development between them reaching that romantic level, though Kishi has intentionally not written this development. I was somewhat shocked, I thought we'd get something NS wise in this war romantically, was even expecting some kind of intimate thoughts during the CPR, or when Naruto woke up maybe, just to balance out the NH and NS development if anything, but nothing. Plot wise there has to be a reason for this. Sakura does not love Naruto, and does not want to be his girlfriend. Naruto has not thought about Sakura in a serious romantic way in an incredibly long time, and has been developing with a girl who he knows loves him in a solely positive way.
> 
> ...



Exactly. He's never had a SERIOUS moment with her that was mutual, it's always been a joke or ended in one, and when it comes to her confession (no I'm not debating this shit anymore, it's dead) there was no mutual agreement. He down right rejected her.

BTW I like your rat :33


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## Tom Servo (Apr 18, 2014)

For the record Hinata doesn't need to be with Naruto to technically be by his side.

Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura has unknown feelings for Naruto unless NH has another moment that's going to top off the hand holding and change Naruto's perspective he isn't looking at Hinata in a romantic way.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 18, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> For the record Hinata doesn't need to be with Naruto to technically be by his side.
> 
> Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura has unknown feelings for Naruto unless NH has another moment that's going to top off the hand holding and change Naruto's perspective he isn't looking at Hinata in a romantic way.




>Naruto loves Sakura
In what panel has Naruto directly said he loves her? In what panel has he said he really likes her? Mind you, I'm talking about the post time skip.

Fact being, Sai may have thought Naruto loved her, and he very well MIGHT have, or at least had strong feelings for her, but after REJECTING her, it shows how far he's come. He knows she won't be happy with him and has accepted it, and is moving on. The girlfriend comment was a joke to show that he wasn't angry at her for playing with his feelings, and her reaction shows  that she wasn't in the mood to bring it back up again, as well as she didn't want someone else thinking they're dating when they aren't.
She doesn't like him.
He probably doesn't like her anymore either.

And as for Hinata...
I think it's over stressed but... the cover. That's all.
And yea, until something happens FOR BOTH SIDES no one will know for sure.


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## Tom Servo (Apr 18, 2014)

1. He never rejected her.

2. 631 wasn't a joke, he was legitimately thinking about whether or not it was true and he answered with "something like that" as oppose to bluntly stating yes like he did last time, on top of that he was saying it to his dead father. She didn't deny it she just didn't want to talk about it reinforcing the proof that the subject was simply a complicated matter

3. what exactly is the volume cover supposed to prove exactly? He held her hand the same reason he held other peoples hands, to give them his chakra. She wanted to be next to him and hold his hand and now her wish has been fulfilled.


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## Xusasu Basasu (Apr 18, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Once Kishimoto starts treating Kiba's dream to become Hokage seriously, I'll take it serious to the plot. I refuse to believe literary wise you actually think the attention on Kiba's Hokage dream compares to Hinata's focus on her feelings for Naruto, and rather you're just trying to bring down the clear significant importance Hinata's feelings have been given.



I didn't say they were exactly the same, and I'm not trying to bring down anything. They're both secondary characters with goals and ambitions. I fail to see how Hinata being given more attention changes her standing and her role in the narrative.


> If Kishimoto is so set on having NS happen, why is he not changing the way Sakura acts around him? Kishimoto has had so many moments to turn Sakura's actions to him intertwined with a girl falling for him actions...and he hasn't. Why? He doesn't want Sakura to be in love with Naruto. Yet once the war ends Sakura's just gonna come around, fickle as she is, and fall for Naruto because he's the main hero? This is bad writing. You do not write character developments how ever you want then throw two characters together because, well the main character had feelings for her I've barely developed. You must show the development between them reaching that romantic level, though Kishi has intentionally not written this development. I was somewhat shocked, I thought we'd get something NS wise in this war romantically, was even expecting some kind of intimate thoughts during the CPR, or when Naruto woke up maybe, just to balance out the NH and NS development if anything, but nothing. Plot wise there has to be a reason for this. Sakura does not love Naruto, and does not want to be his girlfriend. Naruto has not thought about Sakura in a serious romantic way in an incredibly long time, and has been developing with a girl who he knows loves him in a solely positive way.



You claim Kishimoto hasn't developped Sakura's relationship with Naruto in a romantic way so that if NS happend it'd be "bad writing". Fine. I don't agree with this interpretation. I personally think Sakura's relationship with Naruto can be interpreted as romantically ambiguous on her part in various instances. I understand supporters of Naruto/Hinata will object to this and claim it's a ridiculous interpretation, but it really isn't, as this isn't something that comes from internet debates and fanclubs only but also from official supplementary material (I understand we're not supposed to talk about it here, but I still feel the need to mention this in passing to counter accusations of fandom delusion).

Meanwhile, I admit Naruto's relationship with Hinata could technically be interpreted as romantically ambiguous on his part. I'm not denying this, and I'm not going to blame Naruto/Hinata fans for doing so. What I don't understand though is the conviction his relationship with Hinata has "developped" when I don't see much difference from him. I see a clear escalation in Hinata's approach (she's getting bolder and outright thinks she wants to be his girlfriend) but no change from Naruto's reaction. He's always thought of her positively ever since the Chuunin exams, but this didn't mean romantic interest from him then and I see nothing implying this means romantic interest from him now.




> I think at this point what's holding up the NS pairing is holding on to the fact that Naruto has never outright stated, "I'm over you Sakura-chan" and because of this he must still be in love with Sakura and therefore all of his intimate developments with Hinata must be platonic. Many NH fans are holding onto a more 'show don't tell' opinion, where Naruto not showing any serious romantic thoughts for Sakura and him having intimate developments during the war with Hinata, show that Naruto's feelings had to have changed. I agree with this, Naruto's actions don't agree with Naruto holding serious romantic feelings for Sakura, I think Naruto has to have moved on from Sakura at this point for his interactions with Hinata to make sense, cause platonic hand-holding with a girl who loves you just sounds...
> idk maybe NS will get some moment soon the negates everything else.



I think you have things backwards. There's no proper reason to conclude Naruto's feelings have changed since the last time we were privy to them. When I talk about precedents established in the manga, I mean the fact romantic feelings in this story don't disappear easily. All characters have actually kept their crush from part 1, and even a character like Karin, who a lot of people thought was just a fangirl and could easily have been taken out of the subplot by Kishimoto when she apparently gave up on Sasuke is still in love with the same guy and her feelings are still given attention that late in the game.

I see no reason to think that the protagonist of the story would be the only one to change feelings in the span of a few hundred chapters at most while everyone else keep feeling the same. I see even less reason to think that when the last time we saw his feelings they were the same as always, that the scene confirming his feelings also foreshadowed a confession from him which would conclude the subplot neatly, and that such a development would actually fit in nicely with the overarching story.

I want more solid evidence of romantic interest from Naruto than Hinata really wanting to be his girlfriend and him holding her hand to give her chakra and show her gratitude after she gave him a pep talk while Neji's corpse was still cooling down a couple of feet away. I don't think this is unreasonable.

Thanks for the rep btw.


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 18, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. He never rejected her.
> 
> 2. 631 wasn't a joke, he was legitimately thinking about whether or not it was true and he answered with "something like that" as oppose to bluntly stating yes like he did last time, on top of that he was saying it to his dead father. She didn't deny it she just didn't want to talk about it reinforcing the proof that the subject was simply a complicated matter
> 
> 3. what exactly is the volume cover supposed to prove exactly? He held her hand the same reason he held other peoples hands, to give them his chakra. She wanted to be next to him and hold his hand and now her wish has been fulfilled.



1. Yes he did: "I hate people who lie to themselves" And what happened after?
He didn't start dating her.

2. It very well COULD have been a joke, as it could have broken the tension between them since they last talked about it.

3. There was no chakra transfer on the cover.
I think we can drop that petty argument already.


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## Tom Servo (Apr 18, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> 1. Yes he did: "I hate people who lie to themselves" And what happened after?
> He didn't start dating her.
> 
> 2. It very well COULD have been a joke, as it could have broken the tension between them since they last talked about it.
> ...



1. She was lying to herself and he pointed that out, obviously he doesn't hate her. For the record she was fine with going on date with him even by the start of part 2

2. that doesn't make sense for him to joke about it to his deceased dad, not only that but again he clearly was thinking about it, there is literally no similarities to what he's doing in 631 and when he's actually joking about her being his girlfriend. On top of that it wouldn't make sense for him to even joke about her being his girlfriend if he wasn't interested in her anymore or if he wante dto be with Hinata I mean she was standing right there. Hell Kishi even goes to the trouble of making the Kushina parallel and even having Minato mumble to himself that he wants her to be gentle with him. At this point Kishi would have to give Minato some kind of interaction with Hinata and have some kind of evidence there otherwise Minato would just pass away under the false assumption that his son followed his mother's final request which would be a dick move on Kishi's part

3. and yet Hinata is in the center with the kyuubi cloak over her....how mysterious...He clearly wasn't holding her hand for any other reason then to give her chakra


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## Corvida (Apr 18, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tom Servo (Apr 18, 2014)

Yes he did...that was the whole point...

He grabbed her hand, gave her chakra, then grabbed other people's hands to give them chakra.


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## Corvida (Apr 18, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LesExit (Apr 18, 2014)

Someone once again trying to argue that the hand hold was just to give her chakra....no...just...just stop XD It's so obviously not.


Woooooooah I forgot I wrote stuff here.


Xusasu Basasu said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sakura totally ruined that idea though, about her interactions with Naruto being a sign of her falling for him. The whole logic in her confession to Naruto, was that she was fickle and just switched over from Naruto to Sasuke. If there was any part of Sakura that felt that her previous interactions with Naruto could've been interpreted as romantic by her or Naruto she would've stated them. This didn't happen. Literally it was just, I just switched to you cause you're the hero now, now Ima look sad and Naruto's gonna have flashback to moments I had with Sasuke. 

Do you mean how it's developed when it's always been positive(well he thought she was strange and quiet at first)? Or you mean you don't understand how him being able to understand how she was feelings through looking at her eyes, or Hinata's bitch-slap and them holding hands shows how they've developed?


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sakura and HInata's feelings have been shown not to disappear easily, Sakura's mostly Hinata's feelings have always been around and have never been shaken at all, well maybe she didn't realize they were romantic till later in part I or between part 1 and 2 or something. Sakuras feelings tho...it would take a bulldozer on steroids to rid her of them o___o I mean if they made it through this
*Spoiler*: __ 



 lol Sasuke




It wouldn't be 100 chapters, I think it's reasonable to assume that if Naruto's feelings have changed, they've been depleting in seriousness over the years. I think it's during Sakura's confession itself that shows that Naruto is very capable of moving on(The hospital SS hug counts too I think though). The fact that Sakura was lying about not liking Sasuke anymore is what he wasn't capable of handling, because of that it seems likely Naruto had already understood and accepted he had no chance with Sakura. This doesn't automatically mean he'll like another girl though, just because he can't have Sakura. Though the fact that he seems perfectly fine holding hands with a girl that loves him to me shows that he's pretty good with not having Sakura. Though maybe if he doesn't like Hinata romantically, and Sakura ends up with Sasuke, he'll just be like...a hermit :0 like Jiraiya...theres Tenten though, she's a very pretty girl :3
In what kind of situation would it make sense for Naruto to confess though O__O!? 
1. Doesn't get Sasuke back...then like in the flashback, he can't tell her? 
2. Get's Sauske back, knows Sakura loves him, doesn't want her to give up on him, yet he's still going to make a confession??
 3. Sai already told Sakura that Naruto loved her and look where we are, Naruto making gf comments and Sakura hitting him out of anger and disgust, so what would it change in Sakura?? I have no idea how KIshimoto would write it.

I want more evidence too of changing feelings, If Kishimoto doesn't add in anymore moments, and then randomly it's fast-forward, and theres babies everywhere that'd be awful. He better go over to Hinata and pick her up and be like 
*Spoiler*: __ 




If Kishimoto did this...


 The fact that he initiated the hand-hold is a very big start. So far what we have is something that shows very positive feelings from Naruto to Hinata, that can be interpreted as romantic. 


> Thanks for the rep btw.


Reps are green, and greens are good for your health :33


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## Revolution (Apr 18, 2014)

all Team 7 love each other like siblings?

They grew up together. It's only fitting that they love each other deeply without having to breed.

What are your thoughts?


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 18, 2014)

Tom, blatantly ignoring something just to seem right doesn't make you any more correct.

That being said, it wasn't just chakra transfer. Like I said before, arguments like this have been beaten to death.


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## shurei (Apr 19, 2014)

I viewed the hand holding as gratitude and for the additional purpose for distributing chakra, nothing more, nothing less. I do not find any evidence suggesting that Naruto's feelings are ambiguous especially after he answered his dad's question which was directed at Sakura. It being a comic relief moment still does not remove the fact that the named girl was not Hinata.


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## ch1p (Apr 19, 2014)

Perhaps both sides are guilty of exaggeration.

People _can_ hold hands with another to give support and not have romantic feelings for them. While Hinata was clearly making her feelings known, but what Naruto was doing there is detable.

People _can_ joke around about dating others, especially someone who's known to joke around (and has done this precise joke before).

Neither of the two positions are wrong, per se. However, the difference here is the series background.

Hinata caressing his face and Naruto holding her hand in response is something which comes across as quite intimate. Physical closeness between confirmed love interests had a few examples, like kissing a forehead and a faraway panel of them sitting together (Dan and Tsunade), two characters having their faces close and then kissed off panel (Konan and Yahiko), and holding bridal style as the male confessed (Minato and Kushina). This falls in line with that (and another example, the CPR does not).

That joke by Naruto is not different from the 12367236 times he commented about his romantic feelings for Sakura before. Sakura's response is also not different from the 12367236 times she reacted to. You can say Tsundere and you can be anal retentive that she didn't deny with others (I'd say being pissed off and hitting him is saying no enough), but neither changes the fact that Sakura's doing the exact same shit as she was doing in chapter 36 and she wasn't in love with Naruto there.

The point isn't so much the precise meaning behind Naruto holding Hinata's hand or the joking about Sakura being his girlfriend (or Sakura's reaction to it or the CPR scenes). There's no way to tell and discussing it is a waste of time because everyone has their own fanfic opinion. The point is that Naruto is showing something new towards Hinata and Naruto isn't showing anything new towards Sakura (nor is Sakura showing anything new towards Naruto), there is progression and stalling in each other's relationships respectivelly.

What NaruHina fans defend is the natural progresion of what we've seen, the continuous relationship between Naruto and Hinata. What NaruSaku defends is a break with the status quo, get NaruHina to stop and get NaruSaku to start again after years of innactivity (if it was ever running, because in hindisght, there's only that comment by Sai which makes Naruto's feelings substantial instead of non serious and Sakura having platonic development for years).


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Apr 20, 2014)

A natural progression? What? A progression of their friendship? Yeah, sure, I'll buy that. But a progression of any sort of romantic tension? No. Hinata is still very much in the friendzone. 

This is more of you "wanting" something to happen, rather than what's *actually* happening. 

Naruto doesn't *have* to show anything new because we've already known what his feelings are (631 reaffirmed that, but let's conveniently ignore that ). I love this double standard. Naruto has to constantly shower dear Sakura-chan with affection for you to believe he hasn't moved on, Sakura shows ONE PANEL of Sasuke (which was implied to be negative) and you all jump on the "ZOMG SHE LURVS HIM!!11"


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## Michael Senpai (Apr 20, 2014)

Like really though, how many more times do you have to have mods say shit to you before you actually stop baiting in this thread dude? 

The burden of proof is on the one providing the counter, so please, tell me where Sakura has shown any evidence of thinking in a loving manner of anyone other than Sasuke?

And be it that she DID think negatively, does that mean she doesn't love him anymore? No.
It means she doesn't love who he became, but the fact remains, he's come back to fight along side them.

And as for a hidden meaning behind his intentions, just the fact that the sage of the six paths even trusts him shows that he's resolved his past.

Again, what panel? Show the panel where she says she's starting to fall for Naruto. 
No? Can't show it? Because I can show the panel where Naruto rejects her for lying about her feelings and knowing SHE has hidden intentions.

And by the way: double standard my ass. 
"I love this double standard. Naruto has to constantly shower dear Sakura-chan with affection for you to believe he hasn't moved on"

Same applies to Sakura thinking about Sasuke.

When there's panels where Naruto is showing a sad face knowing she loves Sasuke, that's so conveniently ignored, but when she thinks about Sasuke, 1 panel, as you said, you think she's automatically over him.

Read back a few chapters, and maybe you'll remember her face when he came back and with Naruto, helped her in the fight?
I remember her saying something along the lines of this?



COMPLETELY ignoring Naruto?
Yea. 

Totes over him.


----------



## ch1p (Apr 20, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> A natural progression? What? A progression of their friendship? Yeah, sure, I'll buy that. But a progression of any sort of romantic tension? No. Hinata is still very much in the friendzone.



Hinata's in love with Naruto and her pursuit is very much romantic in nature. We know she has romantic feelings for him (and he knows this as well) and she has commented on his hand being manly and strong, and making her feel safe.

You can call her delusional and make some guesswork on how she's going to end up disappointed if you'd like, but that's a matter for another discussion. However, her wish to be close to Naruto isn't platonic and it's ridiculous to state otherwise.



> This is more of you "wanting" something to happen, rather than what's *actually* happening.



This has nothing to do with me wanting things to happen. I didn't want NaruHina to happen, but then I was forced to realise it would be.

Even if it was, however, what's so different from "me wanting something to happen" and "you wanting something to happen"? What I want and what you want is irrelevant. What's relevant is what's there, and what's there is NaruHina progress and NaruSaku stagnant.



> Naruto doesn't *have* to show anything new because we've already known what his feelings are (631 reaffirmed that, but let's conveniently ignore that ). I love this double standard. Naruto has to constantly shower dear Sakura-chan with affection for you to believe he hasn't moved on, Sakura shows ONE PANEL of Sasuke (which was implied to be negative) and you all jump on the "ZOMG SHE LURVS HIM!!11"



Naruto and Sakura both have to show something new, otherwise NS will be stuck in the current status quo forever: which is Naruto making jokes about his feelings and Sakura rejecting him. How is NaruSaku getting resolved if Naruto continues to joke about his feelings, or worse, refuse to believe Sakura can stop loving Sasuke just like he did in Iron Country? How is it getting resolved if Sakura still loves Sasuke and doesn't love Naruto? Clearly something has to change, from both sides, otherwise it's just the same old and nothing will get resolved. On the other hand, Naruto and Hinata only need to continue what they've been doing until now.

I have not denied that Naruto has feelings for Sakura. What I said, is that whether he has them or not is irrelevant, because what it matters is gauging their importance to the plot. He can think she's a 'girl he kind of likes' until the day he dies for all he wants. However, if that's all he'll ever think of then that is something that matters not because his feelings don't move the plot since they are *drum roll*... stagnant, as I accused them to be. Comparing Hinata, this stagnance is something that becomes even more irrelevant than just an excuse for cheap drama the exception that confirms the rule.

Sakura shows one panel which is negative? The dirt on Sakura's cheeks may be kind of off putting, but her happy smile at Sasuke getting between her and the debris isn't negative. Not that it matters whether she smiled at Sasuke or not, or if she's sad at him or not. What is the problem here, which I've pointed out, is that Sakura doesn't show any type of progression towards _Naruto_, so NaruSaku too is stagnant from her side. Furthermore, you've got no moral ground to stand on when you invalidate that happy smile and pretend the war arc moments chapter 615 and a volume cover isn't there, while clinging onto a panel with a joke and a panel with a rejection. NaruSaku is what you accuse NH and SS to be, irrelevant and negative respectivelly, all rolled up into one.



CPRSex said:


> And by the way: double standard my ass.
> "I love this double standard. Naruto has to constantly shower dear Sakura-chan with affection for you to believe he hasn't moved on"
> 
> Same applies to Sakura thinking about Sasuke.
> ...



This is also true. Sakura's sad panda face is nothing we haven't seen before. She's been a sad panda about Sasuke and what he does ever since he attempted to murder Naruto in that hospital rooftop, or more properly, ever since he violently trounced the sound three for her sake. Sakura still loved him after this moment and this is nothing new.

Taking a page out of what I said before. What SasuSaku fans defend is the natural progresion of what we've seen, SAkura continuing to love Sasuke even though she doesn't love his arsehole behavior. What NaruSaku defends is a break with the status quo, get Sakura to stop loving Sasuke love she always did and get her to like Naruto which she never did.


----------



## Young Lord Minato (Apr 22, 2014)

I support both NaruSaku and NaruHina


----------



## Revolution (May 12, 2014)

I'm kinda sick of Kishi's trolling.  I just want to find out who ends up with who and what the heartbroken do to cope.


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

in no particular order, i see only two possibilities:

a. no pairings
b. narusaku 


(tbh, i'm rooting for the 'no pairings' option at this point, w/e. these two options were the only ones i saw from the moment i read nardo)


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## Sango-chan (May 13, 2014)

The proof is all in the hands...........


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## Revolution (May 13, 2014)

If Sakura ends up with Naruto, I want to see Sasuke appearing sad and yearning for her of what could have (easily) been. 

It's not like Sasuke has had more then his share of missing someone in his life to begin with.


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## Revolution (May 13, 2014)

Sango-chan said:


> The proof is all in the hands...........



The proof is in THE EYES.  Sakura looked away when she was "kissing Naruto" just like she was looking away when she said "I love you" to him.

It kinda irks me because Naruto and Sakura are a great pair that so love each other and have been beside each other unlike Sakura and Sasuke who have not.  But teens do crazy things.


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## Michael Senpai (May 13, 2014)

This past chapter with the Viz translations pretty much debunks NS ever really having a chance of happening. Like ever.
Naruto's "love" for Sakura was never mentioned
And Sakura's "feelings' for Naruto weren't mentioned either. Instead, her undying love for Sasuke.
Fact remains, if her feelings for Naruto were really that big of a deal, it would have been mentioned. Instead you get nothing. Even if SS never happens, this pretty much makes NS obsolete. I don't seriously think it's necessary for her to have to walk up and say "I love you like a brother" to Naruto for it to make sense to be honest.


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> The proof is in THE EYES.  Sakura looked away when she was "kissing Naruto" just like she was looking away when she said "I love you" to him.
> 
> It kinda irks me because Naruto and Sakura are a great pair that so love each other and have been beside each other unlike Sakura and Sasuke who have not.  But teens do crazy things.



sakura looked away to the side when she said 'i love you' to naruto. 
but she was still blushing for some odd reason.
sakura was looking away from naruto when she was performing the cpr, but that was because she was checking his heartbeat. 

also, sakura looks back to naruto during the cpr and sort of caresses his face while remembering his dream as a child.  




CPRSex said:


> This past chapter with the Viz translations pretty much debunks NS ever really having a chance of happening. Like ever.
> Naruto's "love" for Sakura was never mentioned
> And Sakura's "feelings' for Naruto weren't mentioned either. Instead, her undying love for Sasuke.
> Fact remains, if her feelings for Naruto were really that big of a deal, it would have been mentioned. Instead you get nothing. Even if SS never happens, this pretty much makes NS obsolete. I don't seriously think it's necessary for her to have to walk up and say "I love you like a brother" to Naruto for it to make sense to be honest.



this past chapter only confirms what sakura feels about her team mate sasuke now. 
this is because kakashi's the one looking back on team 7's past dreams and how much they changed from back then. 
the chapter isn't called 'the present dream' for nothing. 
besides, viz (and ms to some degree) aren't exactly the most reliable translators.
mp is as close as you can get.   

sakura loved sasuke, or the old sasuke. 
the current sasuke is different. she feels that it's her *duty* to save him because she feels sorry for his current state. no matter what, he's still part of team 7 to her.  
she'll still love sasuke, but it's a different kind of love. it's no longer that naive childhood crush. and no, it didn't 'advance' to deeper romantic love either.


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## Michael Senpai (May 13, 2014)

Viz IS the official English translation. Not reliable my ass xD 
Just because it doesn't agree with NS doesn't make it any less reliable.


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Viz IS the official English translation. Not reliable my ass xD
> Just because it doesn't agree with NS doesn't make it any less reliable.



if you actually read the raw, you'd know what's up.
this isn't the first time viz got the translation mixed up anyway.


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## Twin Steps (May 13, 2014)

odango said:


> if you actually read the raw, you'd know what's up.
> this isn't the first time viz got the translation mixed up anyway.



Oh wow, like when?


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

Twin Steps said:


> Oh wow, like when?: nuts



too many instances. 
but i'll just mention one of the famous ones. 
that time when kushina said, "don't pick a strange/weird one... try to find someone like me." 
viz translated it as, "don't fall for the first one you see... try to find someone like me." 

you know, i'm not really cool with the rudeness here.


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## ch1p (May 13, 2014)

I agree with Seto Kaiba for once. The MP / MS / VIZ translations have been relied onto for YEARS. Furthermore, the three of them might all have different wording, but they all mean the same thing. Sakura is in love with Sasuke, no matter what happened in their past. This is nothing new, just a reminder of what went down in chapter 540.

All NarSak can defend now is that Sakura will love both of them by the end and then chose Naruto, but there is no indication she's in love with Naruto nor an indication that she is about to fall for him. The fact that Naruto dying in front didn't make a damn difference points to the contrariy. NarSak has exhausted all possibilities. It is over. Unless someone has some brilliant scenario to counter all of this, but TBH there is nothing. Everything has been dealt with. It's like Kishi had a narusaku argument checklist and made sure to cross each and every single one of them.

So. Sakura loves Sasuke and Sakura doesn't love Naruto. There is no scenario for Sakura to fall out of love with Sasuke and there is no scenario for Sakura to fall in love with Naruto.  NarSak is free to try though. Go on, offer possibilities.


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## ch1p (May 13, 2014)

Oh wait, you think VIZ says something different from MP / MS? That I don't agree.

Chapter 540 establishes Sakura is in love with Sasuke, no doubts. Kakashi's speech can only pander to that, because he's actually a third party talking about someone's feelings and not that person in question talking about their feelings.

It's not that hard to figure out and I have no idea why anyone would see the feel of all three translations are different.


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## Hitt (May 13, 2014)

SS has been effectively killed this chapter.  Granted, I argued this before with the whole murder attempt thing, but sometimes you need the Kishi sledgehammer to see things through.

Sakura's love for Sasuke has "changed" according to Kakashi.  It comes down to duty and affection for a comrade that she continues this quest, despite the fact he tried to kill her.  That certainly doesn't come off as "deepening love" to me, and it would take a whole heap of delusion to think otherwise.

For now, it all comes down to NH vs NS vs no pairing.  SS has been eliminated, not that it had much of a chance to begin with given all the plot that has gone down since the Kage summit arc.


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

personally i never saw ss having a chance. 
also, ss makes me feel sorry for sakura.


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## Njaa (May 13, 2014)

Hitt said:


> SS has been effectively killed this chapter.  Granted, I argued this before with the whole murder attempt thing, but sometimes you need the Kishi sledgehammer to see things through.
> 
> Sakura's love for Sasuke has "changed" according to Kakashi.  It comes down to duty and affection for a comrade that she continues this quest, despite the fact he tried to kill her.  That certainly doesn't come off as "deepening love" to me, and it would take a whole heap of delusion to think otherwise.
> 
> For now, it all comes down to NH vs NS vs no pairing.  SS has been eliminated, not that it had much of a chance to begin with given all the plot that has gone down since the Kage summit arc.



The problem i see is that the argument can go both ways. The text can be used for arguments for both deeper love or not love and platonic only. It doesn't help that the imagery that goes with it, where Kakashi specifically compares chapter 3/4 Sakura with the current one, helps to make it clearer.

On one hand Kakashi is comparing that fangirly Sakura that loved the cool and handsome Sasuke, with current Sakura that still cares for him but also doesn't automatically takes his side like she had done in the past. Personally (for now) i still think it's romantic love for Sasuke mainly due to what happened in iron country and 540. Too little in-universe time has passed since Sakura has though of Sasuke as the one she loves to make the leap from romantic -> platonic.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

takL said:


> from the raw
> kakashi: and sakura...your feelings for Sasuke now differ from back then perhaps.
> 
> love is love and yet it's different
> ...



Kakashi says that Sakura's feelings are different from back then and that her love has changed. You can't argue that romantic love, changed to romantic love; that makes zero sense. The only way this makes sense is if Sakura's love went from romantic love to brotherly love. 

Bringing up chapter 540, as proof that Sakura's feelings haven't changed, is a reading that only takes into account the text while blatantly ignoring the context of that text. The context being someone who is very clearly unsure of herself and her feelings. What's even worse is that this is thee only argument that can be put forth in favor of SS, when the author has given us a metric shit ton against it. 

On the other hand you have NS, which is all but confirmed by the main characters fricking father. 

How this is even debatable still I have no clue.


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## Njaa (May 13, 2014)

^ Again the problem is you're equating Sakura's chapter 3 "love" to her current one and it just doesn't work. Back then Sakura was Sasuke, perfect Sasuke, cool and handsome Sasuke. Now though, she genuinely wants to help the person he actually _is_, rather than her image of him. Love is not the right word for what Sakura felt for Sasuke back at the beginning.


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## Nic (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi says that Sakura's feelings are different from back then and that her love has changed. You can't argue that romantic love, changed to romantic love; that makes zero sense. The only way this makes sense is if Sakura's love went from romantic love to brotherly love.
> 
> Bringing up chapter 540, as proof that Sakura's feelings haven't changed, is a reading that only takes into account the text while blatantly ignoring the context of that text. The context *being someone who is very clearly unsure of herself and her feelings*. What's even worse is that this is thee only argument that can be put forth in favor of SS, when the author has given us a metric shit ton against it.
> 
> ...


 
Because that would be admitting defeat for your own pairing which is why it is vehemently ignored. But yes for a long time the whole SS argument was centered around the simple "because she loves him argument" Killing attempts were ignored, Sasuke's lack of emotion towards sakura is ignored. Heck even now, he basically doesn't seem to give a shit about her. 

People debate these types of things to the bitter end and that's for most manga with a romance subplot to it. Even when it's pretty clear who the Main Character will end up with. At the end of the day, either because readers are of the casual variety and don't have experience with many shounen genres with a romance subplot they don't seem to see that authors center their romance subplots in a similar way to how they focus the rest of their story around the main character. It also becomes more obvious when you see who the author spends most of the MC focus on when it comes to his love interests. The MC doesn't change his feelings the side characters do to fit those of the MC.

I mean you even have Romance Manga named after the main heroine (ie Suzuka) that the main character was in love with since the beginning that had a huge fandom devoted and believed to the very end that a satellite love character for the MC would end up with him. All that despite the freaken title being thrown in their faces.


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## ch1p (May 13, 2014)

Every time Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are confirmed (and these are by far the most addressed in the whole series), ASS goes into this bizarre quest of twisting them into something utterly odd and contrary.

You'd think the umpteenth of time would make people quit it, but no. To be fair, if we're at the umpteenth and it still happens, it will never stop happening. This series will be over, and ASS will still be like 'she's confuzled'.


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## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

> kakashi: and sakura...your feelings for Sasuke now differ from back then perhaps.
> 
> love is love and yet it's different
> 
> ...



How does this not make it clear that her feelings have changed?


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## fdfsd (May 13, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> How does this not make it clear that her feelings have changed? I swear the levels of delusion some pairing fans have are scary.


Cuz even the translator of that sentence confirmed Sakura still loves Sasuke romantic.


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## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

> love is love and yet it's different



So her feelings went from romantic love to romantic love? Okay


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## Harbour (May 13, 2014)

All of these pairings are half-live being one-sided.
But atleast NS have some real progression from other side, while NH and SS are stagnated. Sasuke still doesnt give a darn about Sakura in SS (well, its regression because Sasuke moved on from ingoring Sakura to desire to kill her) and Naruto doesnt give a darn about Hinata in NH. Their attitude towards other side doesnt change through the whole manga.
What about NS?
Sakura from hating in first season, move on respect Naruto, then to careing and now she literally thinking that she want him to be happy (CPR scene). This called progression. Add to this the number  of hints given during last 150 chapters (Kishimoto clearly makes the parallel between Sakura/Kushina and Naruto/Minato) and we can without doubts be sure that NS more live than NH and SS which are looked like half-dead. Deal with it.


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## Mione (May 13, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> So her feelings went from romantic love to romantic love? Okay



I think the part of this scene that has thrown a lot of people off is this part here.

Sakura's feelings didn't change from "Romantic love" to "Platonic Love"  they changed through out the course of the 600 plus chapters from "Romantic Crush/Fangirl Obsession" to "Unconditional Love"

Think of it this way. 

The Sakura that was shown in the early chapters her feelings were that of a fangirl who has a crush on the latest boy band member. He is "cool" "Talented" and "Popular" she only saw that image and not the person themselves.

Through out the manga and as her character development Sakura saw the real Sasuke with all his faults and mistakes, but regardless of all of it Sakura still felt love for Sasuke and her feelings evolved to unconditional love for this person. 

That's it. 

That's the entirely of the message Kishimoto was giving to his readers with Kakashi's thoughts.


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## Michael Senpai (May 13, 2014)

LOL I'm sorry I'm sorry.
What the FUCK do you think Viz translators, editors and reviewers are hired for? To just wing it?
No.
They translate, edit, and review.
If it doesn't pass review (LIKE EVERY OTHER FUCKING PROFESSIONAL MANGA COMPANY) It does not get released until IT HAS BEEN CORRECTED.

It's not AMBIGUOUS anymore. It's put there in different wording yes, BUT WITH THE SAME MEANING.
She loved Sasuke. Now she's DEVOTED to him.
Not as a friend
Not as a 'lost sister' as I've seen some say (not on this thread)

But as a potential lover.

And as for Sasuke's current goal, he's killed Itachi. Anyone remember what he said after that?

He wants to restore his clan. Maybe that explains his current aloof attitude and surprise towards Sakura as of this chapter. How he avoided directing his comment at her "Stay alert... Naruto. I've already told you once"
Or something along those lines.
Even though he never directed it at Naruto.

I mean shit. Naruto has passed one of his goals. He's on his way to be Hokage. I think Sasuke may have just said that to avoid awkwardness. How weird would it be if he just came on the battlefield like "Yea, I'm here to get laid."
Like really?

Again, the viz translators are there for a reason: To debunk or to inadvertently approve any fan translations of the raw, and to provide the approved CORRECT translation. 
There's a reason why they're licensed and paid to do so and MP/MS/MB are NOT.


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## Kage (May 13, 2014)

I wonder how many times Sasuke has to choke a bitch to have one reconsider whether or not he's truly interested in the kind of "clan revival" that involves "getting laid" 
So many missed opportunities. I also like how he apparently doesn't think attempting to kill your supposed 1# option for incubator makes things _awkward_ but making his intentions to get his freak on known is.

Sure sounds like Sasuke, forever searching for the appropriate romantic atmosphere.

That bit of hilariousness aside, it's also curious how context is being ignored (again) Kakashi shouldn't be so impressed by Sakura's apparent kindness if what he's saying was meant to be interpreted as recognizing some serious mature romantic love. 

It's really something when you're in love with someone (who has tried to kill you) but still want to save them from the darkness! How does one scrounge up the kindness to make that happen despite their feelings of intense love?


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## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL I'm sorry I'm sorry.
> What the FUCK do you think Viz translators, editors and reviewers are hired for? To just wing it?
> No.
> They translate, edit, and review.
> ...



viz is a company. 
what this means is that they care about raking in the doughs.
viz isn't there to 'debunk or to inadvertently approve any fan translations of the raw.' 
no.
viz is there to churn out chapters to make money. 
it isn't always there, but viz has mistranslated many mangas, including naruto. 
viz has also censored a lot of mangas out there too. 
viz isn't for the fans. viz is for the profits. 
there's no show biz like show viz.


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## Nic (May 13, 2014)

Kage said:


> I wonder how many times Sasuke has to choke a bitch to have one reconsider whether or not he's truly interested in the kind of "clan revival" that involves "getting laid"
> So many missed opportunities. I also like how he apparently doesn't think attempting to kill your supposed 1# option for incubator makes things _awkward_ but making his intentions to get his freak on known is.
> 
> Sure sounds like Sasuke, forever searching for the appropriate romantic atmosphere.
> ...


 
or calling its one's duty (almost sounds like a chore lol) when you're supposedly in love.


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## Kage (May 13, 2014)

It's a duty of unconditional love clearly.


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## TRN (May 13, 2014)

Harbour said:


> All of these pairings are half-live being one-sided.
> But atleast NS have some real progression from other side, while NH and SS are stagnated. Sasuke still doesnt give a darn about Sakura in SS (well, its regression because Sasuke moved on from ingoring Sakura to desire to kill her) and Naruto doesnt give a darn about Hinata in NH. Their attitude towards other side doesnt change through the whole manga.
> What about NS?
> Sakura from hating in first season, move on respect Naruto, then to careing and now she literally thinking that she want him to be happy (CPR scene). This called progression. Add to this the number  of hints given during last 150 chapters (Kishimoto clearly makes the parallel between Sakura/Kushina and Naruto/Minato) and we can without doubts be sure that NS more live than NH and SS which are looked like half-dead. Deal with it.



After seen  takl/Viz/Raw.,  Sakura in love with sauske more deeper


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## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

Can anyone post the actual Viz-Translation or what Takl said, besides his general trans, which I posted



Mione said:


> I think the part of this scene that has thrown a lot of people off is this part here.
> 
> Sakura's feelings didn't change from "Romantic love" to "Platonic Love"  they changed through out the course of the 600 plus chapters from "Romantic Crush/Fangirl Obsession" to "Unconditional Love"
> 
> ...


The problem with this, is that you can't describe a childish crush as "love".


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## Harbour (May 13, 2014)

> After seen takl/Viz/Raw., Sakura in love with sauske more deeper


According to takL/Raw Sakura went from romantic love to sister/friend love. Viz put words "total" and "level", which Raw doesnt contain at all, so its mistranslation.


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## TRN (May 13, 2014)

Naru/Hina.-Saus/Saku isn't lock but what is  

- Sakura will always be in love with Sasuke.  ( Seem her feeling became stronger)



That all I have to say about this NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku Debate


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## TRN (May 13, 2014)

Harbour said:


> According to takL/Raw Sakura went from romanti*c love to sister/friend *love. Viz put words "total" and "level", which Raw doesnt contain at all, so its mistranslation.



Well in takl opinion no it doesn't...but who knows


----------



## Nic (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Can anyone post the actual Viz-Translation or what Takl said, besides his general trans, which I posted
> 
> 
> The problem with this, is that you can't describe a childish crush as "love".


 
The VIz completely butchered the translation and rewrote Love that is different to Love on a totally different level when neither totally or level were used in the Raw. Not the first time they rewrite things when it comes to the pairings.  They literally rewrote Kushina to not pick a weird one (as to girls he should chose), to don't pick the first one that comes your way.  If you want the most accurate translation i'd stick to Takl or MPs.


----------



## Lovely (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Can anyone post the actual Viz-Translation *or what Takl said, besides his general trans*, which I posted



Yeah, sure.



			
				takL said:
			
		

> i think when sakura was a kid in love with the idea of love she liked sasuke because he looked cool.
> 
> now she saw the uncool sasuke for what he was and yet doesnt hate him but is willing to save him. shes grown out of that lil girl who was after the most popular guy in her school.
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

Lovely said:


> Yeah, sure.


So it's just Takl's opinion, not that the translation is actually saying that. In which case I maintain that there is only one interpretation that makes sense and it's not the SS one.



Nic said:


> The VIz completely butchered the translation and rewrote Love that is different to Love on a totally different level when neither totally or level were used in the Raw. Not the first time they rewrite things when it comes to the pairings.  They literally rewrote Kushina to not pick a weird one (as to girls he should chose), to don't pick the first one that comes your way.  If you want the most accurate translation i'd stick to Takl or MPs.


Do you have the full translation of everything Kakashi said.


----------



## Nic (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So it's just Takl's opinion, not that the translation is actually saying that. In which case I maintain that there is only one interpretation that makes sense and it's not the SS one.
> 
> 
> Do you have the full translation of everything Kakashi said.


----------



## LesExit (May 13, 2014)

Mione said:


> I think the part of this scene that has thrown a lot of people off is this part here.
> 
> Sakura's feelings didn't change from "Romantic love" to "Platonic Love"  they changed through out the course of the 600 plus chapters from "Romantic Crush/Fangirl Obsession" to "Unconditional Love"
> 
> ...


I think you stated it perfectly. The message doesn't seem hard to understand at all, really I think people are making a big deal out of it because it's making it quite clear that Sakura's feelings have always been towards Sasuke. Kakashi's just commenting that her feelings for Sasuke back in early part 1 (silly fan-girl crush) developed into true feelings of love and dedication towards him. It is this love that has matured that is motivating her to save him now. The love is still there in a romantic way, but it's showing that her goal from saving Sasuke isn't just to make-out with him, it's to save him from the darkness. Furthermore I think it shows that even if Sasuke is redeemed, Sakura isn't expecting to be with him, but her feelings are there. 

So. Her goal isn't for him to fall in love with her, but her love for him is whats motivating her to save him.


----------



## shurei (May 13, 2014)

excuse me but how is her love saving him? Is it by just doing nothing and understanding him? Because the last time I checked, she wanted to kill him in the name of love


----------



## sakuraboobs (May 13, 2014)

Did I just see someone saying that in last chapter SS got killed even thought in same very chapter Kakashi said that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are now in a totally different level from before (chap. 3)? You know even though her feelings back then were also romantic they did progress to something stronger, real love not just a crush. Then there's chap. 540 where Sakura herself says to be in love with someone else (Sasuke).  

There's something wrong your comprehension skills because in all translations that we have until now (VIZ included) says the same very thing - Sakura still in love with Sasuke. 

the denial


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

I don't really see why Kakashi would view Sakura as a sweet girl if she wanted to save Sasuke because of romantic love towards him, it seems to me that what Kakashi means is that in spite of the fact that she doesnt love him romantically anymore she still cares about him and wants to save him from darkness, that shes selfless and therefore a sweet girl.


----------



## Kage (May 13, 2014)

I don't understand the stock some would put on so and so translation when her love, her romantic feelings in particular, continues to mean shit to no one other than Sakura herself regardless.

The greatest denial of all is pretending SS _isn't_ in the worst position of the pairs here.


----------



## fdfsd (May 13, 2014)

I like how NS still pretends Hinata isn't a threat anymore. Most of her character closure is gonna be how she ends up with Naruto.


----------



## shurei (May 13, 2014)

fdfsd said:


> I like how NS still pretends Hinata isn't a threat anymore. Most of her character closure is gonna be how she ends up with Naruto.



you're looking for the Anti NS Fc dear, you mis-posted here


----------



## TRN (May 13, 2014)

Kage said:


> I don't understand the stock some would put on so and so translation when her love, her romantic feelings in particular, continues to mean shit to no one other than Sakura herself regardless.
> 
> The greatest denial of all is pretending SS _isn't_ in the worst position of the pairs here.



Atleast SS know that sakura feeling will never decline but rise (as in grow stronger)


----------



## Michael Senpai (May 13, 2014)

Tbh even if the translations were wrong, or misinterpreted, there's still one part which remains the same for all of them


That's called devotion folks. It's not just love. It's devotion now. And not on a friendly level either.


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

^^

Too bad its a different feeling.


----------



## Romanticide (May 13, 2014)

Too bad this is Kakashi's POV, and not Sakura's own. I'm not putting any faith in this since it's not her. Out of all of them Kakashi has interacted with Sakura the least.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

kakashi knows sakura well enough to come to this conclusion. 
in the chunin arc, kakashi lied to team 7 so that sakura can decide if she wants to participate in the exam or not out of her free choice. 
kakashi knew that if he told them the truth, sakura would be pressured into taking the exam, which was something that he knew sakura didn't want.


----------



## Romanticide (May 13, 2014)

odango said:


> kakashi knows sakura well enough to come to this conclusion.
> in the chunin arc, kakashi lied to team 7 so that sakura can decide if she wants to participate in the exam or not out of her free choice.
> kakashi knew that if he told them the truth, sakura would be pressured into taking the exam, which was something that he knew sakura didn't want.



he knew her in part 1, but part 2 he does not.


----------



## Kage (May 13, 2014)

TRN said:


> Atleast SS know that sakura feeling will never decline but rise (as in grow stronger)


Even if you want to believe this is true...

this concerns Sasuke because...????

?????


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 13, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> he knew her in part 1, but part 2 he does not.



it still goes the same for part 2. 
kakashi probably saw sakura during the 2 1/2 year time interval. 
also kakashi's well aware of sakura's feelings for sasuke. 
he knew about her plans during the kage summit, and he saw how sakura couldn't attack sasuke.
kakashi was right next to her when she was crying because of sasuke.  
kakashi is very perceptive, and he's pretty sharp when it comes to other people's feelings.
all those years of reading ero-books helped too maybe lel


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> Too bad this is Kakashi's POV, and not Sakura's own. I'm not putting any faith in this since it's not her. Out of all of them Kakashi has interacted with Sakura the least.



Yeah I'm sure Kishi put Kakashi's monologue in the story for it to be wrong, not to give information to the reader. lel


----------



## Romanticide (May 13, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> Yeah I'm sure Kishi put Kakashi's monologue in the story for it to be wrong, not to give information to the reader. lel



he's done it before. more than once.


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

Wait a minute why are you arguing with me? I'm on the NS side and it seems so are you.


----------



## Romanticide (May 13, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> Wait a minute why are you arguing with me? I'm on the NS side and it seems so are you.



no i'm not arguing! i was just saying kishi has put things like that before. sorry if i seemed i was arguing.


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

lol its alright, but I have doubts that something as specific as Kakashi's statement about Sakura is Kishi using the unreliable narrator trope.


----------



## Benzaiten (May 13, 2014)

Even if the chapter had meant her childish love grew to romantic love (which it didn't because look at the context), why the shit does it matter? It's not like Sasuke's going to be magically moved by the sheer strength of Sakura's ~love~ and fall in love with her. Where the hell is Sasuke in all these? If you're going to argue for a pairing, you need to do it for both sides. Sasuke and Sasuke have barely interacted in the whole of Part 2, have made attempts on each other's life (Sasuke 3, Sakura 1), have lost trust in each other (IDK who Sasuke trusts at this point but Sakura sure as hell doesn't trust Sasuke), and you're telling me their love is going to be confirmed just because Sakura still loves him??? Alright.


----------



## Romanticide (May 13, 2014)

is this supposed to be in support of SS or against it? you didn't put any text...if it's support then look at sakura's expression, she's not happy, and sasuke's expression is murderous.


----------



## Kakugo (May 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi says that Sakura's feelings are different from back then and that her love has changed. You can't argue that romantic love, changed to romantic love; that makes zero sense. The only way this makes sense is if Sakura's love went from romantic love to brotherly love.
> 
> Bringing up chapter 540, as proof that Sakura's feelings haven't changed, is a reading that only takes into account the text while blatantly ignoring the context of that text. The context being someone who is very clearly unsure of herself and her feelings. What's even worse is that this is thee only argument that can be put forth in favor of SS, when the author has given us a metric shit ton against it.
> 
> ...



Exactly. 

Arguing that romantic love changed to romantic love makes no sense at all. If 675 were meant to "reaffirm" that Sakura loves Sasuke romantically, then why did Kishi toss a wrench into the blender by saying that her feelings have *changed*? Kishi is clearly iterating that while Sakura obviously does care about Sasuke, her "duty' to help him is purely out of friendship and comradery. Hence, "you're a kind girl" for caring for and forgiving someone whose tried to kill you. 

Lets assume, however, that this were meant to be some positive notion for SS - what's up with her "false smile" in 635? Considering that event had only recently occurred, what does her "false smile" mean in retrospect to 675? Certainly nothing positive, either which way. No actions, dialogue, or third party perspective has placed SS in ANY positive light lately (or ever, for that matter), and recent chapters have been no exception to that either.


----------



## Skilatry (May 13, 2014)

You know its funny when someone posts an "SS" page and you cant tell whether its for or against the pairing.


----------



## Nic (May 13, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> Too bad this is Kakashi's POV, and not Sakura's own. I'm not putting any faith in this since it's not her. Out of all of them Kakashi has interacted with Sakura the least.


Except this is the author writing the text using Kakashi's character.  If the author wanted the status quo of Sakura still loving Sasuke romantically to exist he wouldn't have to bother with this scene and would simply move on to different things.


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 13, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL I'm sorry I'm sorry.
> What the FUCK do you think Viz translators, editors and reviewers are hired for? To just wing it?
> No.
> They translate, edit, and review.
> ...



Viz doesn't have any magical insight into Kishi's head, they are just professional translators. Normally this would mean we take their translation over that of amateurs' however they have been known to be rather blatantly wrong in the past.

As such significantly more importance is placed on the raw rather than Viz's translation.

Finally the last half of your post is utter wankery that only exists inside your head .



CPRSex said:


> Tbh even if the translations were wrong, or misinterpreted, there's still one part which remains the same for all of them
> 
> That's called devotion folks. It's not just love. It's devotion now. And not on a friendly level either.



If I were shipping SS I must say I'd be distasteful about throwing the word 'devotion' from Sakura around after Part 2.


Now in regards to the recent chapter; the statement is ambiguous, either it means Sakura's still in love with Sasuke (which you shouldn't need the recent chapter to prove) or that Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke. For SS it has to be at best a neutral-lose equation.

As other people have said; even assuming a best case scenario for SS, we're still back to where we started with Hinata->Naruto->Sakura->Sasuke. You're going to have to be joking if you honestly think Sasuke will show interest in Sakura in the near future as well, while he's not batshit crazy now he still seems to have something nefarious planned.


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

TRN said:


> Atleast SS know that sakura feeling will never decline but rise (as in grow stronger)



it CHANGED! not grown but CHANGED as in platonic.
Karin, who is a sensor, once said,"She loves him BUT".
Kakashi, "I bet you're feelings have changed from what they were. You still love him ( like Karin once said) B   U    T on a totally different level..He tried to take your life but you still care for him..You still THINK it's your duty  to save him from the darkness" 
The word* But* introduces a contrast not growth! So I am supposed to interpreted this as it has grown..LMAO


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> You know its funny when someone posts an "SS" page and you cant tell whether its for or against the pairing.



That should be your own fault, not other people's.



shurei said:


> it CHANGED! not grown but CHANGED as in platonic.



Go read 540 then. That's not platonic and was less than one day ago.


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Go read 540 then. That's not platonic and was less than one day ago.



this is weak, kakashi wasn't there during 540, he doesn't give a shit what the love letter fodder said. Kakashi was comparing to the Sakura of part one to part two, you know where SS didn't talk but tried to kill each other.
If you want to play, then acknowledge Karin, who is a sensor, most likely greater than the love ninja, and she can tell if someone is lying by their chakra. Sakura who was very emotional and crying...all of a sudden I am supposed to believe 540 love ninja to be>karin, GTFO.


----------



## Skilatry (May 14, 2014)

Actually it would be your fault for thinking something like this is a positive moment.


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

shurei said:


> this is weak, kakashi wasn't there during 540, he doesn't give a shit what the love letter fodder said.



It isn't weak, it's confirmation directly from the source. Sakura is giving her thoughts about her own feelings and in them, she loves Sasuke and only him. It doesn't matter if Kakashi wasn't there during 540, because Kishimoto was there for 540. Sakura's feelings can't be overruled by anyone but herself. If Kishimoto writes Kakashi thinking these things, he either has to agrees with Sakura's position in 540 or just speaks its different in general. One thing is for sure, if Kakashi is saying that its platonic when Sakura classifies them as romantic, then Kakashi is saying nonsense.



Skilatry said:


> Actually it would be your fault for thinking something like this is a positive moment.



I'd say so. My thoughts are my own, so they're obviously my fault.


----------



## Revolution (May 14, 2014)

I love how everyone is so fanatical that their ship is _right_ when the only way they will be satisfied is if Kishi never fullfills any ships at the end.


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It isn't weak, it's confirmation directly from the source. Sakura is giving her thoughts about her own feelings and in them, she loves Sasuke and only him. It doesn't matter if Kakashi wasn't there during 540, because Kishimoto was there for 540. Sakura's feelings can't be overruled by anyone but herself. If Kishimoto writes Kakashi thinking these things, he either has to agrees with Sakura's position in 540 or just speaks its different in general. One thing is for sure, if Kakashi is saying that its platonic when Sakura classifies them as romantic, then Kakashi is saying nonsense.


Wrong! Kishi went out of his way to tell us that Karin can tell if someone is lying. She was intuitive to say"she loves him BUT".
In 540 Kishi, highlights IF he (sasuke) was somebody she like then he must be a great guy". Hint: Key word: IF
Kishi,through Kakashi is specifically comparing part one Sakura to part 2 and it is not nonsense. She has CHANGED. She didn't talk to Sasuke or fawn over him, shit she tried to kill him and forget about Sasuke even engaging in a conversation with her. LOLS, "Why is Sakura here?" he asked Kakashi instead of Sakura.
Make no mistake, Kishimoto is signifying the death of SS since part two began


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

shurei said:


> Wrong! Kishi went out of his way to tell us that Karin can tell if someone is lying. She was intuitive to say"she loves him BUT".
> In 540 Kishi, highlights IF he (sasuke) was somebody she like then he must be a great guy". Hint: Key word: IF
> Kishi,through Kakashi is specifically comparing part one Sakura to part 2 and it is not nonsense. She has CHANGED. She didn't talk to Sasuke or fawn over him, shit she tried to kill him and forget about Sasuke even engaging in a conversation with her. LOLS, "Why is Sakura here?" he asked Kakashi instead of Sakura.
> Make no mistake, Kishimoto is signifying the death of SS since part two began



I know its' hard for you lot to accept this, but who has the final say about who Sakura loves is *Sakura*. It's not Yamato, it's not Sai (?), it's not Kakashi. It's Sakura.

And Sakura implied she loves Sasuke and only him in 540 she blushed when he helped her in 632 as well (please no 'its dirt' arguments ). If Kakashi's statement is to be truth, then he has to agree with her. Either that, or its a general statement.

Kakashi compared chapter 3 with chapter 675. Even a blind man can see the difference. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke in chapter 3 aren't the same as her feelings in FoD, they aren't the same as her feelings in 181, they aren't the same in 675. Her feelings deepened. She's not that child anymore. It has nothing to do with the nature of her feelings. That is the only conclusion because chapter 540 says she's in love with him. 

What Sasuke thinks about Sakura is quite irrelevant to gauge *Sakura*'s feelings about him. He can think whatever he wants.


----------



## Nic (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I know its' hard for you lot to accept this, but who has the final say about who Sakura loves is *Sakura*. It's not Yamato, it's not Sai (?), it's not Kakashi. It's Sakura.
> .


 
Actually it's Kishi.


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

Nic said:


> Actually it's Kishi.



Well, since you insist.

Masashi Kishimoto: As for Sakura? Sasuke? it?s Sasuke, Naruto is close and she worries about Naruto too, right? But as expected, she (loves/has) Sasuke.


----------



## Nic (May 14, 2014)

Four years ago.


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

Nic said:


> Four years ago.



I was being flippant and assuming you aware enough to remember that _Sakura's thoughts are written by Kishimoto_.


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I know its' hard for you lot to accept this, but who has the final say about who Sakura loves is *Sakura*. It's not Yamato, it's not Sai (?), it's not Kakashi. It's Sakura.
> 
> And Sakura implied she loves Sasuke and only him in 540 she blushed when he helped her in 632 as well (please no 'its dirt' arguments ). If Kakashi's statement is to be truth, then he has to agree with her. Either that, or its a general statement.
> 
> What Sasuke thinks about Sakura is quite irrelevant to gauge *Sakura*'s feelings about him. He can think whatever he wants.


I know it's even harder for you to understand that Kishi is expressing his thoughts through other characters and although I have no doubt that Sakura loves Sauske BUT it's not in the romantic light  as you want it to be. 
Sakura already loves Sasuke but the question is how does she love him ? Yet she has expressed caution and lied through the courtesy of her smile and recently not really engaging with Sasuke, he doesn't give a shit.  Now this autumn sky chick is being compared to part one to part 2 but she is supposedly in love, romantic and maturely  after all and thinking it's her duty to not love him but to  save him from the darkness by doing nothing for him because she's a good girl. LMAO which is it?


----------



## Nic (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I was being flippant and assuming you aware enough to remember that _Sakura's thoughts are written by Kishimoto_.


 
Oh but I am, and I see a girl that is moving on from her childhood crush and realizing slowly her romantic feelings for the guy she's like for a while now.  As in Naruto that is.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 14, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> is this supposed to be in support of SS or against it? you didn't put any text...if it's support then look at sakura's expression, she's not happy, and sasuke's expression is murderous.



no, he's saying that sakura will end up with the love letter fodder nin. believe it


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

shurei said:


> I know it's even harder for you to understand that Kishi is expressing his thoughts through other characters and although I have no doubt that Sakura loves Sauske BUT it's not in the romantic light  as you want it to be.
> Sakura already loves Sasuke but the question is how does she love him ? Yet she has expressed caution and lied through the courtesy of her smile and recently not really engaging with Sasuke, he doesn't give a shit.  Now this autumn sky chick is being compared to part one to part 2 but she is supposedly in love, romantic and maturely  after all and thinking it's her duty to not love him but to  save him from the darkness by doing nothing for him because she's a good girl. LMAO which is it?



Kishimoto expressed his thoughts about Sakura via Sakura and they were quite obvious. She loves Sasuke and him alone. The fact that she has expressed caution and made fake smiles doesn't stop her from loving Sasuke. she once decided that killing him was the answer, and she still loved him after that. Nothing changed.

If you like to call Sakura fickle, then that's your problem, not mine. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are the same all along, just different in depth. Which is in accordance with 540 and what the translators have said. When she decided to kill him, Sai said she was prepared to do everything that it took because it was her duty to save him from darkness. What Kakashi says is a reminder of this, nothing more. And yes, she's a kind girl for not discarding Sasuke, or at least Kakashi says. So what of it?



Nic said:


> Oh but I am, and I see a girl that is moving on from her childhood crush and realizing slowly her romantic feelings for the guy she's like for a while now.  As in Naruto that is.



You may say that, but reality doesn't agree with you.


----------



## Nic (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You may say that, but reality doesn't agree with you.


 
like I've said before we'll see.


----------



## Kathutet (May 14, 2014)

> ?*Telegram and latest chapter spoilers are still in effect!*
> If you spoil or even hint on the latest chapter you will be banned as  per the spoilers rules detailed in the forum rules. Count this as the  first warning to everyone.


.........................


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Kishimoto expressed his thoughts about Sakura via Sakura and they were quite obvious. She loves Sasuke and him alone. The fact that she has expressed caution and made fake smiles doesn't stop her from loving Sasuke. she once decided that killing him was the answer, and she still loved him after that. Nothing changed.
> 
> *If you like to call Sakura fickle, then that's your problem, not mine.* Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are the same all along, just different in depth. Which is in accordance with 540 and what the translators have said. When she decided to kill him, Sai said she was prepared to do everything that it took because it was her duty to save him from darkness. What Kakashi says is a reminder of this, nothing more. And yes, she's a kind girl for not discarding Sasuke, or at least Kakashi says. So what of it?
> 
> ...



Sakura said herself that her heart is like the autumn sky! WTF are talking about Her feelings are not the same if two characters expressed their thoughts coming to the same conclusion that they have changed! Sakura can love him but it's on a different level and it's not romantic. Then current trans doesn't not support your comment about what Kakashi said which was, "You* still * T H I N K it's your  d u t y to save him from the darkness" The verb is : it's not was! This was said after Sai's comment and after he (Kakashi) witnessed what Sasuke was prepared to do which was to kill her. Kakashi took noticed during 675 to think these thoughts while she was standing there talking to Sasuke  after all that has happened.
Kishimoto doesn't agree with you! He's writing this!


----------



## santanico (May 14, 2014)

I see a lot of straw man 

NS fans can think what they like, if they need Sai to tell them that Sakura loves someone, Yamato, Kakashi, etc., then so be it, since this pairing _thrives _on third party confessions


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

starr said:


> I see a lot of straw man
> 
> NS fans can think what they like, if they need Sai to tell them that Sakura loves someone, Yamato, Kakashi, etc., then so be it, since this pairing _thrives _on third party confessions



This is not about NS, let's get that straight. LOLS, now third party is irrelevant when it comes to SS, holyshit that's funny. How about this: Sasuke doesn't give a shit.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 14, 2014)

sorry, kenneth 


edit: anyway i wanna make this post useful. i still think that -like kakashi had said before in part 1- sakura sees sasuke who is far away from her while not noticing naruto, who is close to her. but she's noticing now that the current sasuke don't care about anything other than himself.


----------



## Kathutet (May 14, 2014)

You are forgiven


----------



## santanico (May 14, 2014)

LOL you're funny, since where have we gotten proof he doesn't? nice try though

We've already gotten proof she still loves him, and that has not yet been contradicted, so let's get _that_ straight. Kakashi, Sai, the little frog, etc. are only a third parties, their opinion or lack thereof means squat at the end of the day


----------



## ch1p (May 14, 2014)

Whatever shurei. I'm not going to repeat what I've already said. Sakura loves Sasuke. Kakashi agrees with her.



Nic said:


> like I've said before we'll see.



We still have that bet. Let's see if you don't magically disappear when its time.


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Whatever shurei. I'm not going to repeat what I've already said.


It's ok, but  I will. See how i used the conjunction But





starr said:


> LOL you're funny, since where have we gotten proof he doesn't? nice try though
> 
> We've already gotten proof she still loves him, and that has not yet been contradicted, so let's get _that_ straight. Kakashi, like Sai is only a third party, their opinion or lack thereof means squat at the end of the day


I already said she loves him but
Sasuke does not harbour any romantic feeling for Sakura.


----------



## Narutofreak1112 (May 14, 2014)

People people, there will only be one final pairing when the smoke clears and it's NARUHINA. DEAL WITH IT!


----------



## santanico (May 14, 2014)

shurei said:


> I already said she loves him but
> Sasuke does not harbour any romantic feeling for Sakura.



And like I said, you can claim all you want, but until you have proof, your statements are worth dirt


----------



## shurei (May 14, 2014)

starr said:


> And like I said, you can claim all you want, but until you have proof, your statements are worth dirt



and so are yours


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 14, 2014)

wait, why does it matter at this point if sakura loves sasuke?
it's not like sasuke will have a 360 degree turn and start wooing sakura.


----------



## Revolution (May 14, 2014)

poor Naruto

I actually expect Kishi to not have any of team 7 get together with each other because it's not a love triangle, it's a love circle.

I still love NaruSaku, but Naruto cannot be Sasuke and Sasuke cannot be the coddling boyfriend Sakura wants.


----------



## Revolution (May 14, 2014)

Narutofreak1112 said:


> People people, there will only be one final pairing when the smoke clears and it's NARUHINA. DEAL WITH IT!



She's the one who always had faith in Naruto from the start to begin with.


----------



## Narutofreak1112 (May 14, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> She's the one who always had faith in Naruto from the start to begin with.



Wow, an NS fan with something nice to say? :amazed


----------



## Revolution (May 14, 2014)

I use to be an SS shipper, but I'm kinda irked at Sakura because Sasuke goes head on against Madara the second she gets pierced and all she says is "Sasuke doesn't seem to care"  

Look babe, you cannot change your boyfriend.  Sasuke is great in his own way, but he is far from a coddler-romantic type who brings flowers and cooks dinner for you and gives you back rubs and holds your hand.  He's a stoic loyalist.  It's Sasuke!  What do you want!?


----------



## Revolution (May 14, 2014)

Narutofreak1112 said:


> Wow, an NS fan with something nice to say? :amazed



Yes, if there is anything I hate it is anti-ships/hating a ship that is not yours.

I like SasuSaku, NaruHina, NaruSaku, and SasuNaru/NaruSasu.

Even though I have a preference I'm happy with what makes the characters happy, not what my fanclub wants.


----------



## Scila9 (May 14, 2014)

Seems nothing's changed. Hinata loves Naruto, Naruto loves Sakura, Sakura loves Sasuke, and Sasuke doesn't give a darn cuz he's got way more priorities to think about.


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## TyranntX (May 14, 2014)

^ do you guys ever hear yourselves... Sakura's feelings have CHANGED in chapter 675. that doesn't meant that she is n love with him or even has a crush on him any more, hell look at her reaction when she sees that Sasuke isn't the one who garbs her. and THAT doesn't make ss take a painful shot? how? why? is it just because sasuke knocked back Madara while naturo grabbed sakura?

hinata may love naruto, but if memory serves she did say she would stop going after naruto. this has a number of takes to it, but I find that the most logical one is that she will be fully content with just being his friend, she knows that naruto doesn't have the same feelings and that he would be happy to see him with the girl he DOSE love. Hinata dosn't need a guy (or girl) to be happy in her life, she will be just fine alone. sorry NH fans, but I'm afraid NH is dead

don't get me started on SS, that pairing has been dead since chapter 3. and in this chapter and the last one it took some rather brutal blows. SS, grab a shovel. because your about to dig your grave.

NS on the other hand makes so much sense now that its laughable. as I said before, Sakura's feelings for sasuke have changed, whould it not make sense if her feelings for naruto changed as well? then you have the umteen times he saved her (both canon content and filler). AND the time sakura was trying to save him (irony anyone?). this is just from by perspective but it looks like NS is soaring higher than a rocket.


----------



## Michael Senpai (May 14, 2014)

NS makes so much sense that Kakashi felt no need to mention Sakura's feelings about Naruto or vice versa.

So much sense. Yes.


----------



## NCphoenix (May 14, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> NS makes so much sense that Kakashi felt no need to mention Sakura's feelings about Naruto or vice versa.
> 
> So much sense. Yes.



It wouldn't make any sense to include any ns considering he was talking about their dreams. How Naruto wants to be hokage, sauce wanted to kill itachi and sakura fangirling all over sauce.


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## Narutofreak1112 (May 14, 2014)

Please tell me where it is shown that Naruto loves Sakura? He loves her so much that in that chapter where all his regrets were being shown, not getting her wasn't one of them? Yea...


----------



## Kurama (May 14, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> ^ do you guys ever hear yourselves...



Says you, the apparent King of Selective Reading. I mean holy shit.



> Sakura's feelings have CHANGED in chapter 675.


Yea, from the schoolgirl crush they were in chapter 3 to the mature unconditional love it has been since chapter 181, further emphasized by her inability to kill that love after he almost killed her. You can't just look at one word and entirely disregard the given context to add your own.



> that doesn't meant that she is n love with him or even has a crush on him any more,


It means precisely that she's in love with him. Her feelings are "on a whole different level" of the emotion they were in chapter 3. Crush=>Love



> hell look at her reaction when she sees that Sasuke isn't the one who garbs her. and THAT doesn't make ss take a painful shot?


No fucks were given towards who grabbed her, her intention was to be a diversion so they could attack, but she couldn't sense or see the Limbo clones. That's where Sasuke's focus was. Plus he knows he can trust Naruto to get her out of harms way, and also it shows faith in Sakura's ability [obviously she wouldn't jump in if she wouldn't be able to take some punishment].



> how? why? is it just because sasuke knocked back Madara while naturo grabbed sakura?



Because its to create drama. Sakura's love for Sasuke is set in stone. Its Sasuke that's the mystery.



> hinata may love naruto, but if memory serves she did say she would stop going after naruto.



Again, you take a single word out of its original context and add your own.



> this has a number of takes to it, but I find that the most logical one is that she will be fully content with just being his friend,


It has only one take to it, the take she explained in the very next panel, that she will no longer be chasing him because she will have caught up, and will from that point forward walk by his side hand in hand. FOREVER. She is definitely not content just being friends.



> she knows that naruto doesn't have the same feelings



Incorrect. He's given her enough hints in this war that he's receptive of her affections and open towards her pursuit, which is why she makes her declarations of being by his side with such certainty.




> and that he would be happy to see him with the girl he DOSE love.



Hinata gives -9000 fucks about Naruto's silly crush that doesn't even exist past nostalgic teasing at this point.



> Hinata dosn't need a guy (or girl) to be happy in her life,



None of them need to get together to be happy. But Hinata's the one with actual aggressive intent to pursue.



> she will be just fine alone. sorry NH fans, but I'm afraid NH is dead



And Naruto has been just fine without Sakura. Hinata is, again, actually pursuing Naruto. So no, NH is most certainly alive.



> don't get me started on SS, that pairing has been dead since chapter 3. and in this chapter and the last one it took some rather brutal blows. SS, grab a shovel. because your about to dig your grave.




You must mean NS, considering any remote opportunity for Sakura to reciprocate Naruto's feelings no matter how intense you wish to define them was annihilated when Kakashi stated she is unwilling to let go of her love for Sasuke despite him almost taking her head off. NS is the ship where there's been no real attempt at pursuit since Chapter 3.



> NS on the other hand makes so much sense now that its laughable. as I said before, Sakura's feelings for sasuke have changed,



If you're banking on its chances depending on her feelings for Sasuke changing for the worse, you've shot yourself in the foot already.



> whould it not make sense if her feelings for naruto changed as well?



That's as stupid as assuming the failfession played any role in Naruto growing fondness of Hinata. For her feelings for Naruto to change as you claim we'd need to be shown that. But we aren't. At all. We're shown the opposite. She couldn't genuinely consider him romantically if he tried when he was at his greatest and Sasuke his lowest.



> then you have the umteen times he saved her (both canon content and filler).



lol filler.

Shows how much you understand Sakura's character. She doesn't want to be a load, a damsel in distress. She wants to be an ASSET to her teammates. Saving her isn't going to magically inspire romantic feelings in her for anyone. If that was the case she'd be in love with Lee from way back in the Forest of Death.



> AND the time sakura was trying to save him (irony anyone?).



What irony? That she was doing her medics duty and giving her dying teammate CPR? With absolutely no fanfair towards painting her motivations in a romantic light whatsoever?



> this is just from by perspective but it looks like NS is soaring higher than a rocket.



Yea um....might need some new glasses cuz its not soaring, its sinking.


----------



## TyranntX (May 14, 2014)

Riddle me this though, where dose NARUTO say that he loves HINATA? Hmmmm? If your ruling out NS for something dumbF*ckish. I'm ruling out NH for pure facts and what we know.


----------



## Kurama (May 14, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> Riddle me this though, where dose NARUTO say that he loves HINATA? Hmmmm? If your ruling out NS for something dumbF*ckish. I'm ruling out NH for pure facts and what we know.



That's the thing, Naruto doesn't have to be in love with Hinata at this moment. He just needs to be receptive towards her affections, which he is. Meanwhile the best you get for him pursuing Sakura are jokes that she isn't at all receptive towards. THAT's what is known.


----------



## TyranntX (May 14, 2014)

Kurama said:


> That's the thing, Naruto doesn't have to be in love with Hinata at this moment. He just needs to be receptive towards her affections, which he is. Meanwhile the best you get for him pursuing Sakura are jokes that she isn't at all receptive towards. THAT's what is known.




so in other words you have nothing? and yet you have the audacity to bash why I have put down on the table? 
In chapter chapter 675 It was stated that sakura's feeling have changed. that doesn't men that its in a way that benefits SS. and in Chapter 676 Sasuke almost smited her, if you come up with an excuse for that then your just lying to your self.

as for NH.... Didn't Hinata say that she would stop going after Naruto? She knows Naruto doesn't has the same feelings for her, and that He will be happy with some one else. she will do anything to please naruto, even if it means removing her self from the picture. Hinata hill just as happy alone as she would be with naruto, she doesn't HAVE to be with him.

NH had a good run but sadly didn't make the cut, and I think it's safe to say that SS had died a LONG time ago.


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 14, 2014)

Kurama said:


> That's the thing, Naruto doesn't have to be in love with Hinata at this moment. He just needs to be receptive towards her affections, which he is. Meanwhile the best you get for him pursuing Sakura are jokes that she isn't at all receptive towards. THAT's what is known.



Oh this game again. Surely you've been around long enough to know that this is a terrible argument Kurama.

_We know why Naruto hasn't been pursuing Sakura despite loving her._


----------



## TyranntX (May 14, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Oh this game again. Surely you've been around long enough to know that this is a terrible argument Kurama.
> 
> _We know why Naruto hasn't been pursuing Sakura despite loving her._




Thank you kind sir


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 14, 2014)

crack theory: sakura turns out to be mito's reincarnation. lel 
srs i wanna know what mito was like in her life time. i think she would've been an interesting character


----------



## Kakugo (May 14, 2014)

Narutofreak1112 said:


> Please tell me where it is shown that Naruto loves Sakura?



It would appear that you haven't been reading the manga at all. It's been shown since the very beginning (as early as chapter 3) that Naruto has always loved Sakura.

*※* "A very cute girl that I like alot".



*※* Naruto protecting Sakura from Gaara | Gamakichi calling Sakura his girlfriend (since he's perceptive/smart enough to tell that Naruto clearly loves her.)



*※* Konohamaru notices the same thing (even uses the same "gesture").



*※* Naruto asking Sakura out on dates 'n shit. Wouldn't make sense to ask someone out on a date if you didn't have the hots for them.



*※* Sai takes notice to Naruto's obvious feelings towards Sakura and asks why he hasn't confessed yet | Naruto replies that he doesn't feel he has the right to because he hasn't kept his promise to her yet.


*Spoiler*: __ 









*※* Naruto's blushed expression when Sakura offered to feed him ramen.



*※* Naruto referring to Sakura as his girlfriend when Minato (his father) asked.



Need more? There's plenty.



Narutofreak1112 said:


> He loves her so much that in that chapter where all his regrets were being shown, not getting her wasn't one of them? Yea...



Naruto was regretful for not being able to protect some of the important people in his life and doesn't want to lose anyone else. He felt like he had failed them in some way. That's what the whole point of that scene was. Naruto being in love with Sakura has nothing to do with it and is a separate matter.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Laylo (May 14, 2014)

> Naruto was regretful for not being able to protect some of the important people in his life and doesn't want to lose anyone else. He felt like he had failed them in some way. That's what the whole point of that scene was. Naruto being in love with Sakura has nothing to do with it and is a separate matter.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Not to mention it's not too late to confess to Sakura. It's too late to become close to Sasuke and stop him from going AWOL. It's too late to save all of those people who died in battle. But Sakura's still alive so how can he regret not confessing to her when he still has a chance? And as far as love goes, he's been trying so what regrets could he possibly have there? 'I should've tried harder'? I don't think Naruto believes that's how love works.


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## TyranntX (May 15, 2014)

thanks for the back up guys, Its nice to see that NS isn't dead in all the naruto forums


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## Nic (May 15, 2014)

^
The confession will only happen after Sasuke has finally turned good again which was clearly foreshadowed by Naruto. 



TyranntX said:


> thanks for the back up guys, Its nice to see that NS isn't dead in all the naruto forums


 
well when 10,000 members of NS basically just reside on their own forum that's going to happen. lol


----------



## Narutofreak1112 (May 15, 2014)

So liking someone is the same as loving someone? LMFAO ''I don't even understand this interest in women'' LMAO look at how shallow and silly his crush WAS.


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## TyranntX (May 15, 2014)

Narutofreak1112 said:


> So liking someone is the same as loving someone? LMFAO ''I don't even understand this interest in women'' LMAO look at how shallow and silly his crush WAS.



Some fail to see that Naruto doesn't have a crush on Sakura, he LOVES her. and for the record, yes. Liking some one CAN mean that you love them. its called LIKE liking them. and tell me. how was his crush "Shallow"?


----------



## LesExit (May 15, 2014)

My opinion on chances of ships as of now.

Bests chances: NH.
-There really is no blatant obstacle for this pairing, other than maybe the chance of Naruto's feelings for Sakura being so strong that he's been gripping on to them.
-Gotten the most development in this war, which was very intimate.
-Hinata loves Naruto(of course) gotten nothing but positive actions from Naruto>Hinata, which could show he's very open to her affections.
--I'm not really concerned about NH being canon anymore, Kishimoto's made it pretty obvious. Just waiting for how it plays out. Hinata might die or something though...so ya :0

Moderate to high maybe?: SS 
-I say moderate because yes Sakura's feelings are strong and concrete(like wholly crap could an A-bomb break through them o__O?), but as always love is a game of two. We still have to see if Sasuke gets redeemed and starts considering the bonds he made as important or not. Though this still of course doesn't have to mean that Sasuke loves Sakura, though to many there is evidence of affection from Sasuke>Sakura in part I. So they could both start off where they left off.
--So for the most part this pairing relies on Sasuke's redemption I'd say. Though that's not 100% of course

Lowest: NS
-Best thing NS has is the reliance that Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are super strong, and that the "aha" moment from Sakura where she realizes she loves Naruto will still happen.
-Otherwise not much going on for it. 
-Serious interest from either party is non-existent.
-Naruto accepts Sakura's love
-Sakura still shows no sign of growing romantic affection towards him.
---So that puts NS at the bottom. During the CPR, I was giving NS one last chance in my head to get itself back in the game, cause thought hmm, if anything will bring about the "aha" moment but....Once that failed, I seriously mentally came to the conclusion that NS has almost no chance of happening at this point.

I'm focusing most on observing evidence ofSS as of now. The others aren't at the forefront of my concern for different reasons.


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## Narutofreak1112 (May 15, 2014)

How was his crush shallow? Look up the word shallow


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## Michael Senpai (May 15, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Oh this game again. Surely you've been around long enough to know that this is a terrible argument Kurama.
> 
> _We know why Naruto hasn't been pursuing Sakura despite loving her._



You know what else is a terrible argument?
"Sakura hasn't realized her love for Naruto yet!"

I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. It's a hopeful theory at best. One with no leverage when the only man Sakura has ever thought about being in love with was Sasuke. In 'bad light' or not. She has only ever expressed and said she has feelings for Sasuke. Even now, with these past chapters, it is shown.
Naruto could love her to the moon and back and still be in no better position than Jiraiya, who no matter what, still had feelings for Tsunade. But the fact remains, if she doesn't want him, it will NEVER happen.

And let's take this from a more realistic perspective.
This isn't "Sakura's personality" or "Sasuke's personality"
That matters.

It's how KISHIMOTO has been leading up to these couples that matters. The constant foreshadowing has made these things more and more clear.

Nothing is canon yet, but as it stands, with Sakura only thinking of Sasuke romantically, I seriously doubt she'd do a complete 180 and BLOSSOM into love for Naruto out of no where.

This series is coming to an end. 676 chapters of being in love with Sasuke, and with only a few more to go, it's hard to believe her feelings will ever change.
Whether Sasuke has feelings for her or not.


----------



## TyranntX (May 15, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> You know what else is a terrible argument?
> "Sakura hasn't realized her love for Naruto yet!"
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. It's a hopeful theory at best. One with no leverage when the only man Sakura has ever thought about being in love with was Sasuke. In 'bad light' or not. She has only ever expressed and said she has feelings for Sasuke. Even now, with these past chapters, it is shown.
> ...



Correction, Crushing on sasuke... and technically her feelings HAVE changed (Chapter 675) face it dude, your fighting a losing battle. Hinata stated that she would stop going after Naruto, she knows that he dosn't have the same feelings for her and she'd do any thing to make him happy. Even if it means taking her self out of the picture. SS is a pairing that was dead from the begining, sasuke never showed romantic interest or any form of positive feelings toward her since act one. 
I don't mean to bash NH ans SS but lets face it, they have no chance any more.

NS on the other hand DOSE. Naruto is yet to confess his feelings. We know he loves sakura, but SHE doesn't. Hinata confessed to naruto, nothing happened after words, Sakura confessed in act 1 (despite her feelings being only a crush) and sasuke still ran away.

so what is to be expected of THIS confession? well we don't know just yet. since right now they are a bit busy with Madara at this time. but since sakura had no argument or even a comment on the fact naruto called her his Girlfriend I'd say things look brighter than usual for NS.

I'm not stating this from a NS fan prospective. I' stating it from a logical one


----------



## Rinoa (May 15, 2014)

Just a general heads up: Let's try to keep less nice words off and also the fans, any doubts read the  and the  or PM/VM me or Kenneth.
Stick with the manga, ot and have a good debate.


----------



## Risyth (May 15, 2014)

_*RINOA!! :33*_


----------



## Revolution (May 15, 2014)

_"Oh Sakura,
If only there was someone who loved you"​_


----------



## Turrin (May 15, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> You know what else is a terrible argument?
> "Sakura hasn't realized her love for Naruto yet!"
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. It's a hopeful theory at best. One with no leverage when the only man Sakura has ever thought about being in love with was Sasuke. In 'bad light' or not. She has only ever expressed and said she has feelings for Sasuke. Even now, with these past chapters, it is shown.


I actually think this sentiment is out of touch with the reality of the manga. We've seen murderers like Gaara, Nagato, and Obito, change their feelings in a matter of 3 chapters, and become good hearted people. We've even seen murderous demons change their feelings in a couple of chapters. It's very clear that in this manga characters can have changes of heart in a matter of a few chapters and these changes of heart can completely defy all logic. 

Though for the record I don't think Sakura hasn't realized her love for Naruto; I think she has realized it. 



> Even now, with these past chapters, it is shown.
> Naruto could love her to the moon and back and still be in no better position than Jiraiya, who no matter what, still had feelings for Tsunade. But the fact remains, if she doesn't want him, it will NEVER happen.


Funny thing is Tsunade did admit her feelings for Jiriaya, and was going to pursue a romantic relationship with him if he made it back from Amegakuru. Unfortunately he died, which is quit honestly the only way I see Naru/Saku not happening; if Naruto dies in the final battle.

Jiraiya: Men become stronger when they're rejected

それに幸せなんてのは男が求めるもんじゃないのォ
Jiraiya: Besides, men are not the ones looking for happiness

カッコつけやがって…
Tsunade: Always acting tough, eh...

帰って来たら…
Tsunade: When he comes back

そろそろ　カッコつかなくさせてやるかな…
Tsunade: I guess I'll make sure he isn't able do to that anymore...



> And let's take this from a more realistic perspective.
> This isn't "Sakura's personality" or "Sasuke's personality"
> That matters.
> 
> It's how KISHIMOTO has been leading up to these couples that matters. The constant foreshadowing has made these things more and more clear.


Anyone who thinks Sakura has no romantic feelings towards Naruto did not read the DB, is really going out of their way to misinterpret Yamato's words, and most importantly doesn't know what a tsundere archetype is.

In terms of how the relationships stands, you have Sakura very clearly heavily doubting her feelings towards Sasuke and Kakashi clearly indicating she doesn't love him the same way anymore [expecting deepr love given how she has reacted towards him is outright laughable, so it's clearly shifted to plutonic love]. Sakura literally holding Naruto's heart in her hands, indirect kiss, saying he absolutely can't die, etc... Naruto still in love with Sakura (and MC's feelings matter the most). And even the main characters father being a NS shipper [indirectly Kushina as well, as she asks him to be with someone like her and Minato compares Sakura to Kushina]; so basically Naruto's parents are NS shippers lol.  

Yeah the current state make it obvious NS is head and shoulders above every other pairing.



> This series is coming to an end. 676 chapters of being in love with Sasuke, and with only a few more to go, it's hard to believe her feelings will ever change.
> Whether Sasuke has feelings for her or not.


Saying 676 chapters is taking too much of a leap. As for chapter 675, there is serious doubt as far as Sakura's feelings towards Sasuke. And her feeling for Naruto are very much up in the air as well. Unless you look at Kishi's symbolism in which case it's very clear that she realized she loves him when he almost died.


----------



## Michael Senpai (May 15, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> Correction, Crushing on sasuke... and technically her feelings HAVE changed (Chapter 675) face it dude, your fighting a losing battle. Hinata stated that she would stop going after Naruto, she knows that he dosn't have the same feelings for her and she'd do any thing to make him happy. Even if it means taking her self out of the picture. SS is a pairing that was dead from the begining, sasuke never showed romantic interest or any form of positive feelings toward her since act one.
> I don't mean to bash NH ans SS but lets face it, they have no chance any more.
> 
> NS on the other hand DOSE. Naruto is yet to confess his feelings. We know he loves sakura, but SHE doesn't. Hinata confessed to naruto, nothing happened after words, Sakura confessed in act 1 (despite her feelings being only a crush) and sasuke still ran away.
> ...



It's actually not very logical in the least to be honest, because if it was, you would be using evidence to back this up. Not hopes.

Sakura loves Sasuke. This is still confirmed. Her feelings didn't change into friendship, they changed to devotion, which is deeper than love.
And as for "no argument or comment"
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
How many times does she have to hit him before people realize it's a rejection?

This "You didn't say no! So that must mean yes!" argument is getting old.

And as for "Her feelings were only a crush"
....
Is that so?

I do recall her in her pre academy days saying to her friends 
"Guess who I like!"
to which they replied
"Sasuke? Yea everyone does!"

(paraphrasing btw. Anyone care to post the panel for this?)

To her surprise though, she had no idea everyone else liked him. She liked him, and not because everyone else did.

This slowly progressed from crush, as a child, to love post-academy days.

In shippuden she still loved him.
Now it is stated 
Viz translation


Manga panda translation


Nearly the same thing is stated. One says like, the other says love. But at the maturity level she's at now, I'd say love over like.
That being said,

"It's a totally different feeling now"

That doesn't mean she's given up on him
That means she's devoted to him.

This makes sense as you progress to the next page which states


"You won't cut him off and you still think it is your duty to save him from the darkness"

That is the LITERAL definition of DEVOTION.


She is not giving up on him.

So yea 

Did I miss anything?  Or naw?


----------



## Romanticide (May 15, 2014)

Seriously, if you need "evidence" for NaruSaku you need to REREAD the manga, and read the databooks. Or is finding it on your own too difficult? Also, if it's not "logical" to you then maybe you need to look at it from a non-western perspective.


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## Selina Kyle (May 15, 2014)

i don't know why you're keep pushing the devotion card
sakura loves sasuke but she is not loyal to him anymore
she doesn't even trust him after what team 7's gone through 


and the apple... come on. you can't blame everything on the curse mark and itachi.


----------



## Romanticide (May 15, 2014)

Him having the CM doesn't make any of his actions ok. Do you think he had no control over himself? As for Itachi, Sakura has nothing to do with him, and there's no reason he should have screamed at her, pushed the apples she got for him away, and later became intent on murdering Naruto. Later he even knocked Sakura out after she confessed and pleaded for him not to leave. And Naruto wasn't "accepting" anything. He was also happy Sasuke woke up. Also why are you only using Part 1 examples?


----------



## Kage (May 15, 2014)

It's interesting because a few weeks ago CPRSex was asserting Sakura's determination to keep Naruto alive was prominently because of her duty as med nin. This was not considered "devotion"

At least...not until Kakashi flat out says the very reason she wants to help Sasuke and can't cast him aside is because she feels it is her duty..._now_ it's no longer an obligation but rather a sign of unwavering feelings!


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## Michael Senpai (May 16, 2014)

Funny, I don't ever remember Sakura having the job name "Therapist"
Therefore she's not doing this because she cares for a dear friend  and team mate, as well as it being her job, like with Naruto.

But because she loves Sasuke and even if he doesn't love her back, she feels a devotion towards helping him find happiness.


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## Selina Kyle (May 16, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Funny, I don't ever remember Sakura having the job name "Therapist"
> Therefore she's not doing this because she cares for a dear friend  and team mate, as well as it being her job, like with Naruto.
> 
> But because she loves Sasuke and even if he doesn't love her back, she feels a devotion towards helping him find happiness.





the word of the day is 'duty.' 
as in, '...*and still think that it's your duty* to save sasuke from the darkness. you're a kind girl.'

DUTY not DEVOTION.


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## Kakugo (May 16, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> That is the LITERAL definition of DEVOTION.



Funny that you bring "devotion" into this, because Naruto's feelings towards Sakura have been precisely that. Despite convincing himself hundreds of chapters ago that she loves Sasuke and not him, he has continued to love her and has shown no indication that his feelings have changed. We're even reminded recently that Naruto still loves Sakura when Minato (his father) asked if she's his girlfriend, to which Naruto affirmatively replies by saying "yeah, she more or less is". We even get a Sakura <-> Kushina parallel by Minato himself, which is interesting when taking into account Kushina's dying words to Naruto: find someone like me. 

Sakura, on the other hand, has visibly shown a shift in her feelings towards both Naruto and Sasuke respectively. She's clearly grown closer towards Naruto over time and has behaved rather intimately towards him on a number of occasions. In retrospect, she has hardly demonstrated the supposed sense of "devotion" towards Sasuke as you so claim. She's been doubtful of his intentions for a long time, doubtful of her own feelings towards him, and even recently reminded us that she doesn't trust him. Thus, using the "devotion" card to justify your beliefs in SS's chances are weak and counterproductive.



odango said:


> the word of the day is 'duty.'
> as in, '...*and still think that it's your duty* to save sasuke from the darkness. you're a kind girl.'
> 
> DUTY not DEVOTION.



This.


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## Kage (May 16, 2014)

_Duty_ and _Devotion_ are indeed two separate words with different meanings...you just can't substitute them when you feel like it.

It was never said or implied it was her duty to resuscitate Naruto. It was both said and implied it's her duty to help Sasuke.


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## Mr Horrible (May 16, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> You know what else is a terrible argument?
> "Sakura hasn't realized her love for Naruto yet!"
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. It's a hopeful theory at best. One with no leverage when the only man Sakura has ever thought about being in love with was Sasuke. In 'bad light' or not. She has only ever expressed and said she has feelings for Sasuke. Even now, with these past chapters, it is shown.
> Naruto could love her to the moon and back and still be in no better position than Jiraiya, who no matter what, still had feelings for Tsunade. But the fact remains, if she doesn't want him, it will NEVER happen.



It's had leverage since Yamato's statement to Sakura all the way back in the 4 tails arc. 

I also find it hilarious that you're ok with NS parallels as long as you think they are negative .



> And let's take this from a more realistic perspective.
> This isn't "Sakura's personality" or "Sasuke's personality"
> That matters.
> 
> It's how KISHIMOTO has been leading up to these couples that matters. The constant *foreshadowing* has made these things more and more clear.



I don't think that word means what you think it means .

Foreshadowing is something like Sakura's fake smile to Sai about her trusting Sasuke.



> Nothing is canon yet, but as it stands, with Sakura only thinking of Sasuke romantically, I seriously doubt she'd do a complete 180 and BLOSSOM into love for Naruto out of no where.
> 
> This series is coming to an end. 676 chapters of being in love with Sasuke, and with only a few more to go, it's hard to believe her feelings will ever change.
> Whether Sasuke has feelings for her or not.



This argument works for every pairing kiddo.

What differentiates SS from the rest is the tone with which Sakura has been thinking of Sasuke (or in fact how she was thinking of her feelings for Sasuke in 540, which is huge).


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## Nic (May 16, 2014)

^
I always found it funny that 540 is used as a pro SS moment when Sakura's feelings in that panel is cast in a negative light and pre-phrase with fodder nin saying (he must be a really great guy).  That's not a pro SS moment. 


Kage said:


> It's interesting because a few weeks ago CPRSex was asserting Sakura's determination to keep Naruto alive was prominently because of her duty as med nin. This was not considered "devotion"
> 
> At least...not until Kakashi flat out says the very reason she wants to help Sasuke and can't cast him aside is because she feels it is her duty..._now_ it's no longer an obligation but rather a sign of unwavering feelings!


 
pretty much this, it's basically comparable to Naruto's feeling that it's his duty to bring back Sasuke as well. Basically Naruto and Sakura's goal when it comes to Sasuke are the same and coming from the same reasons.


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## TyranntX (May 16, 2014)

@CPRSex...* but in all seriousness though I can  SORT of see where your comming from. but you seem to not see that each and every chapter that has been comming out Kishimoto keeps giving SS the middle finger.

so for the mean time NS is way ahead, no matter witch way you look. weather it be the manga or the anime

@Horrible, Very good point sir. For that I solute you.

@Kanugo, Exactly one of the points I'm trying to make. many SS fans have this idea that sakura's change of heart is to their benefit. but in reality it just keeps pushing them further and further underground. despite her change in feelings we don't exactly know what she thinks of him other than recent events. and don't get me started on how NH is going to shortly follow SS other wise this will turn into a flame war.


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## Turrin (May 16, 2014)

Nic said:


> ^
> I always found it funny that 540 is used as a pro SS moment when Sakura's feelings in that panel is cast in a negative light and pre-phrase with fodder nin saying (he must be a really great guy).  That's not a pro SS moment. .


Yeah I did a translation of the raw of ch 540 per someone's request recently and It 100% casts SS in a negative light. I'm not a translator and only know beginner Japanese, but if anyone's interested these are my findings:

In chapter 539, Sakura says that she Suki's another person. Most people translate that as love, but to me Suki is a bit less strong than "love", and is close to "like". 

Basically I'd go with the way Aegon-Rikudo translates it:

Sakura, "thanks?\\ but? I have another person I like? so\\"

When it comes to chapter 540, I'd translate it as:

Fodder Ninja, "The person you've come to like a-lot is certainly a lovely good natured person probably" 

My analysis. 

On ch539 Sakura is fumbling for an answer to Fodder-Shinobi's confession and without thinking much about it basically falls back on what has been her default all this time; she likes someone else [Sasuke]. But than on Ch540 when Fodder shinobi starts talking about how she likes this guy [sasuke] ALOT and how he's such a great person. She starts really thinking Sasuke, and has no response.

I personally think it's too much of a surface reading to say Sakura's lack of response and expression is 100% due Sasuke being not a great person and using Sakura saying she "likes" Sasuke when it was done as a means of deflection as confirmation of her feelings.

I personally believe that the fact that Kishimoto only has Sakura say she like's Sasuke, but than has Fodder shinobi say she like's him a-lot [closer to love] is also something Kishimoto is contrasting and something Sakura is questioning 

Basically I think the scene shows that Sakura doesn't have the conviction in her feelings for Sasuke. Rather than it confirming that Sasuke is the only one she loves or her love for Sasuke is true love. Which is funny because the scene is typically used as proof of SS, which from my reading, it seems like it's against SS.

Beyond that Fodder Shinobi seems to use a bit of double speak. Like He "certainly" is, but than says "probably" at the end, so he's doubting his own "certainty". Don't know if that's his own goof personality or him being nervous, but the probably at the end is also seems to me to be putting anything fodder shinobi says into doubt.

Again not nearly the level of NF translators, but that was the impression I got from the Raw.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 16, 2014)

look at y'all trying to twist the facts . 

She said i already love someone, and that someone is Sasuke. Point blank, period. 
what's sooo hard to get ?
And yes we SS fans has every right to use it as an argument cuz NO. SHIT. She's thinking about the man she loves. 

Someone upthread said she looks sad. 

NO. SHIT. 

the man is insane and he took a dark path. I'm glad that she has a sad face cuz i'd ask kishimoto wtf this maniac is smiling about a man who's in the darkness.


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## Romanticide (May 16, 2014)

we aren't twisting the facts. we're stating them. do you not have any reading comprehension??


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 16, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> we aren't twisting the facts. we're stating them. do you not have any reading comprehension??



No y'all aint. 

sakura is real about her feelings. She's not conflicted. 
she's sad because of the situation that sasuke is in.

Lol. 

I have a great reading comprehension, dear. 

And IDC about what y'all have to say. sakura's feelings for sasuke are the least of my worries.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> look at y'all trying to twist the facts .
> 
> She said i already love someone, and that someone is Sasuke. Point blank, period.
> what's sooo hard to get ?
> ...


What's so hard to get that it was written in the context of it being a spur of the moment deflection to let the Fodder-shinobi down easy. Than when the Fodder-Shinobi got her to really think about what she said, she was extremely troubled. And no looking at the Raw I do not think it was simply Sasuke going to the dark-side that troubled her, but also the contrast between how weak her romantic feelings towards Sasuke had become in comparison to how stronger the fodder-shinobi expected them to be. At best your could argue her heart is wavering due to Sasuke's actions and if he redeems himself her heart will stop wavering and her romantic-feelings will come back stronger than ever, but that still means at the very least her heart is still wavering currently, which is not unconditional "love" at all; It's rather 100% conditional, the condition being that Sasuke having a grand enough redemption that Sakura's heart can stop wavering and him doing so before someone else can do that (I.E. Naruto).


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## MaxMelody (May 17, 2014)

it's just showed Sakura never ever understand sasuke a bit at all. let her "save" the darkness man in her illusion  but not sasuke who has his own path and fighting for glorious warrior life and never love such  passive girl


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## ch1p (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> look at y'all trying to twist the facts .
> 
> She said i already love someone, and that someone is Sasuke. Point blank, period.
> what's sooo hard to get ?
> ...



I agree with dannii. The obsession with casting 540 in a negative light has no point, because obviously she's not going to be happy if he's evil. Furthermore, Kakashi called her kind for still have feelings for him, her romantic feelings have been exalted by him as positive (kind is a _positive_ adjective). The only defence is to call Kakashi delusional.


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## hannah (May 17, 2014)

NaruHina is going to happen because Hinata truly loves Naruto and he will see that she is the best girl for him and fall in love. :33 If he already hasn't. 

NaruSaku is going to happen because Naruto and Sakura have the strongest bond of friendship which will turn into love once Sakura realises what Naruto means to her. :33 If she already hasn't. 

SasuSaku is going to happen because Sakura still loves Sasuke and that will not change, while she is the only girl Sasuke can end up with, if he's paired up at all. :33 Also Sakura sees Naruto as a brother. 

Did I win the thread? 

Can I have a cookie?


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## TyranntX (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> look at y'all trying to twist the facts .
> 
> She said i already love someone, and that someone is Sasuke. Point blank, period.
> what's sooo hard to get ?
> ...



there is only one thing wrong there, Villains don't GET the girl.  even id they are sided with the hero for a brief moment. as you said, Sasuke is still in the darkness. Doesn't matter if sakura loves him or not. sasuke is still considered a villain. would it not make sense for him to turn back to the dark side? He is still scheeming something you know, and Its not something that would be to SS's benefit. even some one who doesn't ship can see that.

Its been 676 chapters and sasuke has not shown any romantic interest for sakura. why would he start now? Sakura on the other hand CARES for sasuke. but not since her failed attempt to stop him in act 1 have we seen her give a legit confession. heck that word is even quite a big stretch considering what was done and said. and now given what has happened in chapter 675 you think SS is still standing... after her feelings have changed and matured?  sorry but I call BS. especial given what has happened in more recent events.

again.. NS just makes more sense at this point. no matter where you look weather it be the manga or the anime they still have an ace in the hole. an ace that both SS and NH have used and failed. Naruto is yet to confess his feelings for sakura. Hinata confessed to Naruto during the pain story arch, and not only did hinata begin her decent in usefulness (not to bash the character or anything) but its never addressed again! and to add insult to injury it never went canon for some reason. How and why did that happen? My guess is that Naruto just completely forgot about it after coming to. but for what ever reason NH still didn't go canon, even after the hand holding scene. sorry NH, looks like Kishimoto just doesn't care about NH.

I could go on and on and ON about how NS is plausible. but its mostly things that have already been said, and at the same time have been discused with others from their rival pairings. the ones I my self have seen were either weak or just nonsensical. however they were not made on this forum. so you guys at least have arguments with structure... they are still questionable, they are just more respectable.

Once more I don't mean to bash or hate on the other two fandoms. I'm just questioning your logic and ideas. Isn't that the point of a debate thread?


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## Nic (May 17, 2014)

For SS to happen you would have to believe that the Author would have his main character lose his love interest to his main rival whom has multiple times tried to kill his so called love interest.  Good luck with that. To add insult to injury NS is filled with symbolism and a never ending assault of MinaKushi parallels that have been thrown over and over again to the readers faces.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 17, 2014)

wtf are you talking about ? 

Naruto is unbothered that Sasuke tried to kill Sakura so idk why you even made that conclusion. Plus, Naruto knows full-well that Sakura loves Sasuke and he seems perfectly fine with it. 
When was the last time Naruto supposed feelings for Sakura have been mentioned, mate ?
chapter 3 but it was in a childish manner, that dipshit sai who tried to start drama, and that awful joke he made.

Wow. 

I didn't know that MinaKushi means NS = canon. 

Good luck with that.

To add insult in injury, Sakura is still in love with Sasuke.


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## Nic (May 17, 2014)

Too add insult to injury she's not.

BTW I thought you were done arguing? What happened?


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 17, 2014)

Nic said:


> Too add insult to injury she's not.
> 
> BTW I thought you were done arguing? What happened?



i needed to answer to that bullshit. 

i deleted my post earlier cuz i felt like i was repeating myself. 

i'm not gonna argue with you about whether sakura is in love with sasuke or not, because i know she's in love with him, no matter what you and others say. 

Kakashi, Naruto, Sai, Shikamaru, the manga, the official raws disagrees with y'all. 

now i'm really done, i've said my piece. Argue away  

Goodbye.


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## Mr Horrible (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Naruto is unbothered that Sasuke tried to kill Sakura so idk why you even made that conclusion.



Are you serious?


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## Michael Senpai (May 17, 2014)

Nic said:


> For SS to happen you would have to believe that the Author would have his main character lose his love interest to his main rival whom has multiple times tried to kill his so called love interest.  Good luck with that. To add insult to injury NS is filled with symbolism and a never ending assault of MinaKushi parallels that have been thrown over and over again to the readers faces.



Please tell me you're joking.


*Just because Naruto is the main character, does not mean he has automatic rights to the main heroine. Especially since she has shown no interest in him. Ever.*

"BUT BUT SHE DIDN'T SAY NO WHEN HE CALLED HER HIS GIRL FRIEND"
So if you walk up to a girl and ask her out, and she pours water on you, is it a date or nah?

You can't tell me seriously you think she's got interest in Naruto in any way other than as a friend.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 17, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Are you serious?



yes i'm serious. 

last time i checked, naruto was unbothered that sasuke tried to kill sakura. 
and this thing bugged me. 

for someone who loves sakura, he shoulda had a better reaction. 
Sasuke tried to kill kakashi and sakura, then he started talking about how they were friends. that was a huge WTF to me. and he focused on sasuke only. that bothered me a lot.


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## Sango-chan (May 17, 2014)

hannah said:


> NaruHina is going to happen because Hinata truly loves Naruto and he will see that she is the best girl for him and fall in love. :33 If he already hasn't.
> 
> NaruSaku is going to happen because Naruto and Sakura have the strongest bond of friendship which will turn into love once Sakura realises what Naruto means to her. :33 If she already hasn't.
> 
> ...



*Four* for you *Hannah* you go! And none for Gretchen Wieners!


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## Romanticide (May 17, 2014)

You clearly missed the look Naruto gave Sasuke after rescuing Sakura. He did care and he was mad.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 17, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> You clearly missed the look Naruto gave Sasuke after rescuing Sakura. He did care and he was mad.



honey, i remember everything. he was unbothered. 

he was focused on sasuke and he ignored sakura. 
he turned straight to sasuke. sakubabes went thru some crazy shit and she still had the politeness to thank him and yet he ignored her. 

c'mon the guy has nearly killed his teacher and the girl he loves in front of his eyes and all he says is, "I'm happy to be your friend?" 

sorry but that disappointed me.


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## Njaa (May 17, 2014)

One look and a very mild scolding for someone who tried to kill the girl he's supposedly madly in love is very _underwhelming_ to say the least. He's shown more emotion to what he perceived as Fukasaku bad mouthing Jiraiya.


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## TyranntX (May 17, 2014)

yikes, I get warned for NOT bashing fandoms and just stating why SS and NH wont happen, and yet all of ^THAT^ makes the mods look the other way? what kind of forum is this?

I mean seriously, just look at this.

@Divine never once did I mention that. and why should he have a reaction to it now? he is rather buisy with madara at this time. best to save his anger on him dont you think ? and where in act 2 is it seen that she still loves saskue, because I don't see it any where. all I DO see is that sakura is growing up, she is realzing the hard way that sasuke doesn't love her and never will. her facial expressions say it all.

@CPRsex You'd be suprized about how things like that work out, the stories can get pretty strange. I know of a man who's first date with a girl was bailing her out of jail. women are very strange creatures dude. its almost impossible to read them.



@hannah ...... erm.... no comment


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 17, 2014)

Njaa said:


> One look and a very mild scolding for someone who tried to kill the girl he's supposedly madly in love is very _underwhelming_ to say the least. He's shown more emotion to what he perceived as Fukasaku bad mouthing Jiraiya.



thank you. 

his lack of reaction bothers me a LOT. for someone who's apparently madly in love you'd expect he'd go apeshit on sasuke or even insult sasuke, anything. 

nope. 

he talks about their ''friendship'' yadda, yadda. this moment had a huge effect on me because it proves what i said for years. 

it seems like sasuke > sakura when it comes to naruto and this shit gets on my nerves.


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## Nic (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> i needed to answer to that bullshit.
> 
> i deleted my post earlier cuz i felt like i was repeating myself.
> 
> ...


Getting riled up only proves my point struck home.


CPRSex said:


> Please tell me you're joking.
> 
> 
> *Just because Naruto is the main character, does not mean he has automatic rights to the main heroine. Especially since she has shown no interest in him. Ever.*
> ...



It shouldn't be automatic but guess what? It is still going to happen.


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## TyranntX (May 17, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> thank you.
> 
> his lack of reaction bothers me a LOT. for someone who's apparently madly in love you'd expect he'd go apeshit on sasuke or even insult sasuke, anything.
> 
> ...



and that warrents SS how?

I'm sorry I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around that... the friendship between Naruto and Sasuke = SS?

I too remeber Naruto being completely pissed off at first, but he did settle down quickly. and True they do talk about their friendship but I some hos do recall him having an an irritated tome here and there. i'm going to have to consult the anime first and gt back you you on that matter 

but still, given recent events I'm curious.... how dose SS stand a chance any more... please don't use the exuce " Because sakura loves saskue" because its clear in the story that she dosn't and that her crush is slowly dying.... (not baashing the pairing or anything, just saying whats on my mind)


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## Nic (May 17, 2014)

@Njaa
The whole pain arc had a major theme of forgiving and letting go of your hatred which is ironically the opposite of what Sasuke has done.  Naruto basically was acting like best bud with Edo Nagato a dude that actually killed his father figure.


TheDivineOneDannii said:


> you're hopeless.



That's twice now that you said you were done. Make up your mind.


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## TyranntX (May 17, 2014)

yeah I have to agree with that. the pain story arc was a bit more of a lesson than a NH hint.

@Divine .... okay how was THAT comment not against the rules?


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## Njaa (May 17, 2014)

@Nic
Ummm not sure what that has to do with what i posted. Fukasaku was the frog that taught Jiraiya (and Naruto) sage mode. First time he met Naruto he kept calling Jiraiya "chan" and that pissed off Naruto.


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## Kage (May 17, 2014)

TyranntX@ Report the post if you have reason to believe it's aganist the rules. Click this icon  on said post.


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## Nic (May 17, 2014)

Mods have a shorter leash with new members.


Njaa said:


> @Nic
> Ummm not sure what that has to do with what i posted. Fukasaku was the frog that taught Jiraiya (and Naruto) sage mode. First time he met Naruto he kept calling Jiraiya "chan" and that pissed off Naruto.



Yes and before the end of the pain arc Naruto would get riled up after the slightest taunts.  After his maturing process and the end of the pain arc he's the person that forgives everyone.  Forgives Nagato, Sasuke, now even freaken Obito. You can't compare his pre pain arc reactions with those after since Naruto is a completely different person in handling those that hurt the people he cares for. Even kishi himself talked about the need to mature his MC before the pain arc.  Letting go of hatred and forgiving were the clear end results of that maturity whether we find it dumb or not.


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## TyranntX (May 17, 2014)

Nic said:


> Yes and before the end of the pain arc Naruto would get riled up after the slightest taunts.  After his maturing process and the end of the pain arc he's the person that forgives everyone.  Forgives Naga to, Sasuke, now even freaken Obito. You can't compare his ped pain arc reactions with those after since Naruto is a completely different person in handling those that shirt the people he cares for. Even kishi himself talked about the need to mature his MC before the pain arc.  Letting go of hatred and forgiving were the clear end results of that maturity whether we find it dumb or not.



yeah now that you mention it Naruto has also Matured just like Sakura. both of them have changed. both have a better understanding of their emotions. Naruto knows now he can't let hate drive him in his future endeavors, and Sakura is starting to realize her TRUE feelings for both Sasuke and Naruto. its subtle but she is with out a doubt falling in love with naruto. Her feelings for sasuke on the other hand are slowly dying down. It too is subtle but its still there.


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## Njaa (May 17, 2014)

Ah i understand now. He never hated Fukasaku though, just got angry at first and he still gets ticked off. When Obito was talking shit about Minato and the Hokage position in general he gave him a rasengan to the ass (not literally of course) for it.


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## Corvida (May 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What's so hard to get that it was written in the context of it being a spur of the moment deflection to let the Fodder-shinobi down easy. Than when the Fodder-Shinobi got her to really think about what she said, she was extremely troubled. And no looking at the Raw I do not think it was simply Sasuke going to the dark-side that troubled her, but also the contrast between how weak her romantic feelings towards Sasuke had become in comparison to how stronger the fodder-shinobi expected them to be.




No, Turrin. The tragic irony  and contrast was in  the great person love letter fodder was describing and expecting and the crazed loon Sasuke had become. Notice love letter is not questioning her feelings as in "are you sure I havent a chance?" but centered in trying to get from poor Sakura the kind of great guy that has taken his place in Sakura?s affection. Of course that Sasuke?s descent is what is troubling and flooring her.He is, as far as she know-the frigging enemy.An occasion perfect to dance mu?eira.


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## TRN (May 18, 2014)

Nic said:


> Getting riled up only proves my point struck home.
> 
> 
> It shouldn't be automatic but guess what? It is still going to happen.



So let me get this straight...Sakura doesn't realize how much she in love with naruto yet  Even though Sasuke is always on her mind.


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## Nic (May 18, 2014)

If we're going to play the who Sakura has on her mind most often game, then Naruto has Sasuke completely beaten.


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## TyranntX (May 18, 2014)

TRN said:


> So let me get this straight...Sakura doesn't realize how much she in love with naruto yet  Even though Sasuke is always on her mind.



not exactly... Sasuke is on her mind quite often. she just isn't being a fan girl like she was in the past. so she may not realize her feelings for Naruto just yet, but thats because she isn't completely over sasuke yet.

but hey, thats how typical teenage girls behave when they are finding out the one they had a huge crush on doesn't even like them.


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## TRN (May 18, 2014)

Nic said:


> If we're going to play the who Sakura has on her mind most often game, then Naruto has Sasuke completely beaten.



With regard to romance (who she want to be with)...I think not


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## TyranntX (May 18, 2014)

TRN said:


> With regard to romance (who she want to be with)...I think not



so? Naruto is still on her mind way more often than sasuke, and given recent events (again) I think who's on her mind romanticly is going to change.


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## TRN (May 18, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> so? Naruto is still on her mind way more often than sasuke, and given recent events (again) I think who's on her mind romanticly is going to change.



I keep hearing it going to change, but when?   This story is coming to close an I don't see sakura doing a 180 right at the end


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## TyranntX (May 18, 2014)

TRN said:


> I keep hearing it going to change, but when?   This story is coming to close an I don't see sakura doing a 180 right at the end



she already is turning her self around. its another one of those subtle things. Recent events bro, best to pay attention to them


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## Kathutet (May 18, 2014)

Get along, or get out.


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## TyranntX (May 18, 2014)

^Will do sir. Thank you for stepping in before things got ugly


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## Corvida (May 18, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TRN (May 18, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> she already is turning her self around. its another one of those subtle things. Recent events bro, best to pay attention to them



How is she turning her self around, explain please


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## ch1p (May 18, 2014)

Lol drama.

Regarding the translations about Kakashi's speech, you're taking it too far. The raws state that she loves him, MP / MS / raws via several translators including takl, all confirm it. 540 was just less a day ago as well, and there its implied that she loves him. There are no translations that say that she doesn't love him anymore, unless they come from NS sources. This chapter, she was wondering whether he cared or not, completely dismissing that Kakashi had no reaction to her being saved either. Obviously, she sees him differently than anyone else around here.

The there's the other problem. The wake up call for Sakura being Sasuke supposedly ignoring her is... ridiculous and portrays Sakura as an idiot with skewed priorities. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you lot are very quick to remember Sasuke attempted to kill Sakura a number of times, but then pretend that wasn't the lowest he could get in her eyes and that's when she should have questioned her feelings. That somehow, not giving her the attention she so wants, is going to change her feelings when him attempting to murder him didn't. This doesn't make any sense. The only way out is to advocate that Sakura loves them both, but just doesn't know that she does in the case of Naruto. Even here, you'd be depicting Sakura as an idiot. Or that she'd fall in love from one moment to the other, but that's the same for all characters then, not really an argument for NS alone.

I remember at least one of you defended this (that Sakura was an idiot), but is this the position of the whole fandom? I doubt it. So please explain. Like I said 'at the drop of a hat' is an argument for all fandoms, so if NS wants to use that, then they have to accept everyone can use that. So, how can you lot make Sakura fall out of love with Sasuke and fall in love with Naruto without her looking like a fool? How can you make Sakura question her feelings about Sasuke when he's ignoring her but not when he attempted to kill her. How can you make Sakura fall in love with Naruto or 'she loved him all along but didn't realise it until this moment'.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 18, 2014)

Even she DOES still love him (which doesn't make any sense considering the progress of events for almost three years now), it still puts you right where you started.

Sasuke doesn't give a single fuck about Konoha, except for maybe Naruto (and then that's debatable.) Yet, you all expect him to magically develop feelings for someone he never cared about? 

You're in a lose/lose situation no matter which way you try to argue.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

sasuke cares about team 7.


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## ch1p (May 18, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Even she DOES still love him (which doesn't make any sense considering the progress of events for almost three years now), it still puts you right where you started.



She loves him. The raw leaves no room for interpretation.



> Sasuke doesn't give a single fuck about Konoha, except for maybe Naruto (and then that's debatable.) Yet, you all expect him to magically develop feelings for someone he never cared about?



This is irrelevant to the discussion we are having, which is Sakura -> Sasuke. The reverse implication was not part of it and is an independent subject.


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## Risyth (May 18, 2014)

^How can someone ship two characters when one has _unrequited_ love for another, though?


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## Tangle (May 18, 2014)

Nic said:


> *For SS to happen you would have to believe that the Author would have his main character lose his love interest to his main rival whom has multiple times tried to kill his so called love interest.*  Good luck with that. To add insult to injury NS is filled with symbolism and a never ending assault of MinaKushi parallels that have been thrown over and over again to the readers faces.



Lose? So Sakura is something that Naruto has to win over? A prize to be obtained?


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## ch1p (May 18, 2014)

Risyth said:


> ^How can someone ship two characters when one has _unrequited_ love for another, though?



I said they are independent subjects, and that we were talking about one subject and not the other. What we were discussing was Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and NaruSaku.

Such, its only necessary to point out that Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone, not Naruto, and that there's no reason why this would change without Sakura looking stupid.

These are independent of Naruto's feelings for Sakura or Hinata, or Sasuke's feelings for Sakura. The fact is, NaruSaku isn't getting anywhere if Sakura is not interested and is interested in someone else instead. The state of NaruSaku from Naruto's side, or NaruHina and / or SasuSaku are independent matters.

If you mean in a general sense, as to how people can ship unrequited love... I've got to tell you, people ship two people even if they have never spoken a word towards each other.



Tangle said:


> Lose? So Sakura is something that Naruto has to win over? A prize to be obtained?



I dislike the way that was worded as well.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 18, 2014)

> She loves him. Raw leaves no room interpretation



 you mean only because you're choosing a translation that conveniently fits with how you personally feel  

It doesn't really matter regardless. It's not happening. 



Tangle said:


> Lose? So Sakura is something that Naruto has to win over? A prize to be obtained?



That's more or less her purpose now in the story anyhow as much as I hate to admit it. Once she chooses her so called "man", Sakura's role (what little she had) in the story is finished.


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## Mr Horrible (May 18, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> sasuke cares about team 7.



Ah yes, as shown when he was planning to save just Juugo and Naruto in the Obito fight .


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> you mean only because you're choosing a translation that conveniently fits with how you personally feel
> 
> It doesn't really matter regardless. It's not happening.



i feel bad you, son. the official raws leaves no room for interpretation. she's in love with him. ask taKL.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Ah yes, as shown when he was planning to save just Juugo and Naruto in the Obito fight .



are you one of those people who pretends taka and naruto are sasuke`s only friends ? 

sasuke cares about everyone in team 7.  sakura and kakashi included.


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## ch1p (May 18, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> you mean only because you're choosing a translation that conveniently fits with how you personally feel



MS / MP / VIZ / several translators on tumblr including someone who isn't part of the fandom, and takl. All of them imply that Sakura loves Sasuke. Oh yeah, and chapter 540, where Sakura implied she loves him still.



> It doesn't really matter regardless. It's not happening.



Again, that is irrelevant to the subject we are discussing, which were Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and her non feelings for Naruto. I understand you have no answer to 'how is Sakura going to stop loving Sasuke and fall for Naruto instead' though.



> That's more or less her purpose now in the story anyhow as much as I hate to admit it. Once she chooses her so called "man", Sakura's role (what little she had) in the story is finished.



What choice? Sakura only loves Sasuke, she doesn't love Naruto. There's nothing to chose.



TheDivineOneDannii said:


> are you one of those people who pretends taka and naruto are sasuke`s only friends ?
> 
> sasuke cares about everyone in team 7.  sakura and kakashi included.



As you say. As a bit of a sidenote, Kakashi being always forgotten as stupid as Sasuke not caring about Sakura argument.


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## Kage (May 18, 2014)

Naruto's not in love with Hinata.

Sasuke's sure as hell not in love with Sakura.

So...

...why is it only offensive when "winning" someone over is applied to Naruto when Hinata and Sakura are expected to have their feelings returned for no other reason than because they feel so strongly? You know, like a _reward_ for their _devotion to love_ or something.


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## Nic (May 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto's not in love with Hinata.
> 
> Sasuke's sure as hell not in love with Sakura.
> 
> ...


 
With is definitely ironic when you consider those bringing it up turn a blind eye when it comes to Sakura trying to win Sasuke over despite his numerous murder attempts. As if that's not far worse.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Nic said:


> ^
> yes that girl
> 
> 
> With is definitely ironic when you consider those bringing it up turn a blind eye when it comes to Sakura trying to win Sasuke over despite his numerous murder attempts. As if that's not far worse.



if hinata and sakura behaved towards naruto and sasuke in the same manner as naruto does towards sakura (harassing someone to return your romantic affections, along with lying, and Naruto’s blatant disrespect of her when it comes to his romantic overtures. etc) i'd prolly say the exact same thing.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> if hinata and sakura behaved towards naruto and sasuke in the same manner as naruto does towards sakura (harassing someone to return your romantic affections, along with lying, and Naruto?s blatant disrespect of her when it comes to his romantic overtures. etc) i'd prolly say the exact same thing.



When did he do any of that?


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> When did he do any of that?



his first big ?move? on sakura was disguised himself as Sasuke in an attempt to kiss her and to know what she think about him which is a huge betrayal of trust and disrespectful. 

his liking for ?claiming? that she?s his girlfriend against her wishes and despite anything she has to say about it, which makes her react with anger. And he also knows Sakura loves Sasuke. Is he delusional ? 

He doesn?t care about her feelings, just his own. He wouldn?t even give up on his obsession with Sasuke when she asked him to. 

And he also tried to peep on her as well.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

When did he try and peep on her? Also he never got through with trying anything because he got sick. He never claimed Sakura was his gf, he said "more or less" and he never had anyone teach him any boundaries and didn't have parents, so....


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## Mr Horrible (May 18, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> are you one of those people who pretends taka and naruto are sasuke`s only friends ?
> 
> sasuke cares about everyone in team 7.  sakura and kakashi included.



Ah, considering Sasuke's preference for murdering and/or sacrificing his 'friends', I can't actually say Sasuke has any friends at the moment, merely people he finds useful.

The one redeeming Sasuke-Team 7 moment in part 2 was during the Killer Bee fight. When you weight that against all the other shit he's done and the special princess he is I don't see how you can say Sasuke considers Team 7 his friends. I mean for fuck's sake, he wanted to kill all of them for smiling .



Hollow'd Heart said:


> When did he try and peep on her? Also he never got through with trying anything because he got sick. He never claimed Sakura was his gf, he said "more or less" and he never had anyone teach him any boundaries and didn't have parents, so....



I swear it was only three or so pages ago that Kakugo dropped a whole lot of NS pages in here.

Also the gymnastics required for that gf scene rationalization is amusing.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> When did he try and peep on her? Also he never got through with trying anything because he got sick. He never claimed Sakura was his gf, he said "more or less" and he never had anyone teach him any boundaries and didn't have parents, so....



Here


I'm sorry but making moves on someone you love by saying she's his girlfriend when it is sure as hell untrue (and he has done this both in Part 1 and Part 2) - is not cute or appealing in the slightest. Peeping on someone is not cute either, it is in fact creepy and gross.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

Image isn't showing up.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> Image isn't showing up.



I'll edit it when i'll be on my PC. 

Idk if you remember but he was with yamato at the bathhouse trying to peep on her.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Even she DOES still love him (which doesn't make any sense considering the progress of events for almost three years now), it still puts you right where you started.
> 
> *Sasuke doesn't give a single fuck about Konoha, except for maybe Naruto (and then that's debatable.) Yet, you all expect him to magically develop feelings for someone he never cared about? *
> 
> You're in a lose/lose situation no matter which way you try to argue.




Up until this point we've been led to believe that Sasuke does not care about Sakura romantically. But as of 676 it looks as though Sasuke ---> Sakura is going to be addressed clearly in the near future.


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## Kage (May 18, 2014)

Is that what it implies? cuz it just looked like more fuel for Sakura angst rather than Sasuke evaluating his feelings for someone he hasn't thought of exclusively since...well since ever really.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Is that what it implies? cuz it just looked like more fuel for Sakura angst rather than Sasuke evaluating his feelings for someone he hasn't thought of exclusively since...well since ever really.



Perhaps. I'll try to find the translation of the raws that I read, but in this last chapter it was confirmed that Sakura was questioning if Sasuke cared about not only her physical condition after being stabbed by Madara, but about she as a person. In my opinion, Kishi would not have brought this up if it was not going to be addressed later. We got a re-evaluation of the members of Team 7 individually in chapter 675. It only makes sense that in the near future there is a re-evaluation of the bonds within the team (and the SasuSaku bond got a head-start with Kakashi's comments).


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## Kage (May 18, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> Perhaps. I'll try to find the translation of the raws that I read, but in this last chapter it was confirmed that Sakura was questioning if Sasuke cared about not only her physical condition after being stabbed by Madara, but about she as a person. In my opinion, Kishi would not have brought this up if it was not going to be addressed later. We got a re-evaluation of the members of Team 7 individually in chapter 675. It only makes sense that in the near future there is a re-evaluation of the bonds within the team (and the SasuSaku bond got a head-start with Kakashi's comments).



Kakashi comments on _change_ so in that respect I agree it's a re-evaluation that will be addressed later but only on Sakura's end. There are things she obviously needs to come to terms with as far as her feelings for Sasuke go.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

^^The entire big 3 does this.

SasuSaku believes that Sasuke will return Sakura's love because she has been so dedicated to him through ALL of the ups and downs, despite the fact that he has attempted to kill her on different occasions and his perceived lack of care for her.

NaruHina believes that Naruto will return Hinata's love because she has been devoted to him and is determined to walk by his side, despite a perceived lack of response or care for her confession.

NaruSaku believes that Sakura will return Naruto's love (and I use that word lightly with Naruto) because Naruto has always been by her side protecting her selflessly time and time again, despite the fact that she still seems to loves Sasuke and has not shown any signs of changing the way she feels.



Edit: Of course my point is, one can claim that this pairing does this, but there is more depth to the argument besides "X belongs with Y because X loves Y so much, and Y has to reciprocate at some point." It's unfair to water-down arguments to that extent.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> Because people will think whatever is required to justify their chosen pairing, even when it requires thinking that hey are justified in using an "X reasoning" while in the same breath mocking people when doing so





Clearly you didn't read my posts upthread. 
if Hinata and Sakura behaved towards Naruto and Sasuke in the same manner as Naruto does towards Sakura, i'd prolly say the exact same thing. 

Naruto's romantic advances towards Sakura IMO are gross and disrespectful.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Kakashi comments on _change_ so in that respect I agree it's a re-evaluation that will be addressed later but only on Sakura's end. There are things she obviously needs to come to terms with as far as her feelings for Sasuke go.



A bond is between two people. It can't simply be on Sakura's end. Sasuke must be involved somehow in order for Sakura to either realize that he doesn't care for her romantically and move on or be made aware that Sasuke does indeed see her in a romantic light. It's clear from this chapter that in order for her to get over Sasuke completely she needs to know if he cares about her. Since this is the case, she is going to need confirmation from Sasuke himself.



*@Dannii*:


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## Laylo (May 18, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Here
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but making moves on someone you love by saying she's his girlfriend when it is sure as hell untrue (and he has done this both in Part 1 and Part 2) - is not cute or appealing in the slightest. *Peeping on someone is not cute either, it is in fact creepy and gross*.



But...



She wants to watch Sasuke pee which is REALLY creepy and gross. How is she forgiven for that and allowed to continue pursuing a relationship whereas Naruto should just give up and forever be labelled a pervert who is unworthy?


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

Laylo said:


> But...
> 
> 
> 
> She wants to watch Sasuke pee which is REALLY creepy and gross. How is she forgiven for that and allowed to continue pursuing a relationship whereas Naruto should just give up and forever be labelled a pervert who is unworthy?




 and she wanted to see his penis too, didn't she?


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Laylo said:


> But...
> 
> 
> 
> She wants to watch Sasuke pee which is REALLY creepy and gross. How is she forgiven for that and allowed to continue pursuing a relationship whereas Naruto should just give up and forever be labelled a pervert who is unworthy?



Image doesn't show up. 

And when did Sakura say that ?


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> and she wanted to see his penis too, didn't she?



No she didn't.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> No she didn't.



yeah she did, she said she wanted to sneak a peek iirc.


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## Laylo (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> and she wanted to see his penis too, didn't she?



She got really excited at seeing him naked with Sai which is REALLY REALLY REALLY SUPER DUPER FANTASTICALLY creepy and gross because Sasuke wasn't even there to give Konohamaru permission to pretend to be him naked. 

But the main point is, like Naruto's actions or not, it's Kishimoto's sense of humor and thus I don't think it's a serious point against NS.

Especially when all is said in done, JUST last chapter he saved Sakura from further harm and cared enough to see if she was okay compared to Sasuke who obviously didn't try to save her and didn't even care.



> Image doesn't show up.
> 
> And when did Sakura say that ?



Shows just fine for me so I'm stumped.

Anyways chapter 46. Right as the second Chunnin Exam test started Naruto went to go take a leak. Sakura told him not to do that in front of a lady and then in her mind giggled and said that she wouldn't mind watching if it were Sasuke who had to go instead.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

Laylo said:


> But...
> 
> 
> 
> She wants to watch Sasuke pee which is REALLY creepy and gross. How is she forgiven for that and allowed to continue pursuing a relationship whereas Naruto should just give up and forever be labelled a pervert who is unworthy?




Put like that, it's not fair. It's a double-standard. But the difference is that Sakura stopped acting in this manner quite early in Part I. On the other hand, it seems this behavior pervaded with Naruto much into Part II.


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## Kage (May 18, 2014)

Pretty sure Naruto has never wanted to watch Sakura pee so yeah, he's not even on Sakura's pervert level.

And in part II she was quite taken with Konohamaru's jutsu so therefore no better than the perverts she was reprimanding.



BeBreezy said:


> A bond is between two people. It can't simply be on Sakura's end. Sasuke must be involved somehow in order for Sakura to either realize that he doesn't care for her romantically and move on or be made aware that Sasuke does indeed see her in a romantic light. It's clear from this chapter that in order for her to get over Sasuke completely she needs to know if he cares about her. Since this is the case, she is going to need confirmation from Sasuke himself.



Sakura's entire struggle with her bond with Sasuke has been entirely one-sided and I see no reason for that to change amongst the many things Sasuke is sure to be paying much more attention to. If Sakura is indeed waiting for a cue from Sasuke (that would likely not be romantic in nature anyway) to decide whether or not a romance is worth pursing when she can't figure out if he's even trustworthy as an ally first than she's more delusional than I thought.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

Laylo said:


> But the main point is, like Naruto's actions or not, it's Kishimoto's sense of humor and thus I don't think it's a serious point against NS.



I could believe this, if Kishi gave the other pairings the same humorous treatment.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> Put like that, it's not fair. It's a double-standard. But the difference is that Sakura stopped acting in this manner quite early in Part I. On the other hand, it seems this behavior pervaded with Naruto much into Part II.



well, besides him not having parents, jiraiya trained him, so obviously the pervertedness stuck. and it's kishi's sense of humor so....


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 18, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> yeah she did, she said she wanted to sneak a peek iirc.





Laylo said:


> She got really excited at seeing him naked with Sai which is REALLY REALLY REALLY SUPER DUPER FANTASTICALLY creepy and gross because Sasuke wasn't even there to give Konohamaru permission to pretend to be him naked.
> 
> But the main point is, like Naruto's actions or not, it's Kishimoto's sense of humor and thus I don't think it's a serious point against NS.
> 
> Especially when all is said in done, JUST last chapter he saved Sakura from further harm and cared enough to see if she was okay compared to Sasuke who obviously didn't try to save her and didn't even care.



Ok i'll be fair. That's quite a double-standard, but the difference is Sakura stopped acting like this in middle of part 1.

naruto has not grown out of that phase. He's still like this in part II. 
Peeping on her at the bathhouse. I mean, its cool that he has flaws but the thing is its ''okay'' for him to be like this, because he's special.

Even if he knows she doesn’t love him, it doesn’t stop him from falsely claiming she’s his girlfriend more than once and generally creeping on her.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Sakura's entire struggle with her bond with Sasuke has been entirely one-sided and I see no reason for that to change amongst the many things Sasuke is sure to be paying much more attention to. If Sakura is indeed waiting for a cue from Sasuke (that would likely not be romantic in nature anyway) to decide whether or not a romance is worth pursing when she can't figure out if he's even trustworthy as an ally first than she's more delusional than I thought.




Quite true. It seems from her perspective that Sasuke has no care for either romantically or even as a teammate. So ideally she should have taken her cue to move on already. But that is not the case; therefore, Kishimoto has set things up for there to be an evaluation of the bond between Sakura and Sasuke, and I suspect not _all_ of it will be revolving around Sakura's feelings anyhow. We (the audience) need to know if Sasuke cares about Team 7 at all at this point, Sakura included.




Hollow'd Heart said:


> well, besides him not having parents, jiraiya trained him, so obviously the pervertedness stuck. and it's kishi's sense of humor so....



I don't actually think that's a valid excuse. That's like saying Sakura should have adopted Tsunade's habits of gambling and drinking, simply because she was under her tutelage.


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## Selina Kyle (May 18, 2014)

at this point, i would say that naruto's better off with a random girl who's like kushina than sakura. 

sakura's obsession for sasuke is weird, dark, and downright creepy. 
the bush thing and wanting to see sasuke pee in front of her was funny at first when i read it. 
but then within a sec, the dark intention behind it creeps up and it's like, 'wtf.' 
and later in part 2, when konohamaru does the yaoi sasuke and sai jutsu, she yells, "oohhh so that's how you do it!" 
obviously this implies that she's fantasized about sasuke in warped ways. konohamaru's jutsu was just a gateway that showed a glimpse of her dark fantasies.   

in all sakura's life, sasuke was an idol that was the object of her worship. 
sasuke is like pygmalion except that in reality, there is no goddess of love that will bring the stone cold idol to life no matter how much you wish for it to happen.


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## BeBreezy (May 18, 2014)

odango said:


> *in all sakura's life, sasuke was an idol that was the object of her worship.*
> sasuke is like pygmalion except that in reality, there is no goddess of love that will bring the stone cold idol to life no matter how much you wish for it to happen.




The fact that this has no consistent validation in canon aside, if she has fantasies of Sasuke that does not mean she idolizes him. Naruto most likely has fantasies of Sakura, and I would not say that he idolizes her. Team 7 are aware of each of their flaws. They view each and every member as human. You can't have a bond with an idol.


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## SoulFire (May 18, 2014)

May I just interject in Naruto's defense that he did _not_ specifically seek to peek on Sakura in the mentioned scene with Sai and Yamato. Only the anime makes that distinction. In the manga Naruto hears the ladies giggling and gets some naughty ideas about peeking to which Yamato reminds him that Sakura is over there and warns him about what Tsunade did to Jiraiya for doing what Naruto is contemplating. Which definitely cooled Naruto's jets.


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> I don't actually think that's a valid excuse. That's like saying Sakura should have adopted Tsunade's habits of gambling and drinking, simply because she was under her tutelage.



except sakura has parents, and tsunade wouldn't do that to sakura, plus shizune would stop her. jiraiya and naruto is a different thing.


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## Tangle (May 18, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto's not in love with Hinata.
> 
> Sasuke's sure as hell not in love with Sakura.
> 
> ...



It was the "losing her to his rival" part that I found offensive. It makes her sound like a prize.

If he genuinely loves her then that's a different story.


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## Kage (May 18, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> Quite true. It seems from her perspective that Sasuke has no care for either romantically or even as a teammate. So ideally she should have taken her cue to move on already. But that is not the case; therefore, Kishimoto has set things up for there to be an evaluation of the bond between Sakura and Sasuke, and I suspect not _all_ of it will be revolving around Sakura's feelings anyhow. We (the audience) need to know if Sasuke cares about Team 7 at all at this point, Sakura included.



Ideally yes but I feel since Kishi pretty much doesn't have any idea what to do with her anyway he's decided she's going to learn this lesson the long and hard way. Sasuke caring about Team 7 will be Sasuke caring about Team 7 and while that includes Sakura there needs to be more to it than that if we are talking about potential romance. 

Sasuke has not shown anything but gratitude for her feelings and that was nearly 400 + chapters ago. It has not been worth ruminating over since. Maybe he could learn to appreciate her feelings again but that does not guarantee returning them (assuming there's anything left to return should Sakura have a change of heart)



Tangle said:


> It was wanting to win her over from his rival that I found offensive. It makes her sound like a prize.
> 
> If he genuinely loves her then that's a different story.



I think it's safe to say Naruto's rivalry with Sasuke has nothing to do with Sakura. Getting her attention despite said rival is just a bonus not an ambition.


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## Selina Kyle (May 18, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> The fact that this has no consistent validation in canon aside, if she has fantasies of Sasuke that does not mean she idolizes him. Naruto most likely has fantasies of Sakura, and I would not say that he idolizes her. Team 7 are aware of each of their flaws. They view each and every member as human. You can't have a bond with an idol.



we were never able to see any signs of naruto having any kind of weird sexual fantasies about sakura. 

the fact that sakura watched sasuke in adoration with wide, sparkling eyes, the fact that sakura cried so hard when she thought sasuke died by yelling out his name a lot, the fact that sakura has dark sexual thoughts for sasuke even when she was 12 years old all indicate that sakura did obsess over sasuke like an idol. she put him up on the pedestal by thinking that sasuke's so cool, mysterious, and charming, sasuke can win any battles (remember lee vs sasuke), sasuke this, sasuke that. but as time went by, sakura saw that sasuke was not who she thought he was. still, that nostalgia of idolizing sasuke in her heart didn't fade.

and that's just it. sakura never had any real close bond with sasuke. everything about the 'cool, mysterious' sasuke is in her mind.


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## narutoshipp (May 18, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 











what is the difference?


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> except sakura has parents, and tsunade wouldn't do that to sakura, plus shizune would stop her. jiraiya and naruto is a different thing.



Please give Naruto more credit. Yes he grew up without parents, and as a result he misbehaved. But he has learned right from wrong now, and has grown out of many of his old habits, except this one. He knows how to shed bad habits, he just hasn't (or won't) shed this one.

As far as the relationship between him and Jiraiya, if I remember correctly he berated Jiraiya for his lascivious behavior towards women on separate occasions. It does not sound like Jiraiya was that much of an influence on him in that regards. He was already quite the flirtatious boy before he trained under Jiraiya. Not to mention that before Jiraiya he had many other role models to emulate, most prominently Kakashi and the third hokage.


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## ch1p (May 19, 2014)

Naruto's "disrespectful" ways, I think they're funny. In a way, him being socially clueless because he's emotionally deprived can be equated with Sakura's early brattiness because she's spoiled. One doesn't know how to act in public, the other takes things for granted, so ofcourse they're going to be foolish. I also agree that at least Naruto's antics aren't as disgusting as Jiraiya's. Though a bit tasteless, Naruto's comic relief situations over these matters aren't all that bad either. That, or I am easily amused. I find other things to be way more problematic regarding Naruto's character.

That said, the problem of his "disrespect" is when we equate this to pairings. Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are not taken seriously by the narrative most of the time. Much like Sakura's early crush on Sasuke or Hinata blushing / fainting around Naruto was played for laughts (and i'd say more but we're not really allowed to speak of other pairings). These three were all played for laughs.

However, the girls' feelings both evolved into serious business, while Naruto's for Sakura remained in the same comic relief situations. It becomes even more obvious when Naruto used to look at Hinata as if she was odd and this was done in a way the reader would laugh (omg you odd, omg is she trying to fool me, omg you dark dork), and then it also involved into serious business. He seems more mature around her. He certainly has never "disrespected" her.

The only exceptions to the comic relief moments are the hospital scene and the PoaLT (both in part 1), the memory Sai had of Naruto and the fake confession (part 2). In 3/4, Naruto acknowledges and accepts the SasuSaku and in 1/4 he hints that NaruSaku is hopeless. When the narrative does take them seriously, it's to say that 'hey, its not happening'.


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## Michael Senpai (May 19, 2014)

narutoshipp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're both obvious non verbal rejections at Naruto's attempt to look cool.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

narutoshipp said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's no difference. 
In part 1: Sakura is pissed that Naruto claimed tht she's his girlfriend. Which is disrespectful because she knows she doesn't like him romantically but he claims that. 

In part 2: Minato asks Sakura if she is Naruto’s girlfriend. In an overwhelming display of disrespect and disregard for how she feels, Naruto dont allow her to speak even though the question was aimed at her, and he answers on her behalf without permission. Which makes her respond, as always, with anger. All this does is reinforce the one-sidedness.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

odango said:


> ]the fact that sakura watched sasuke in adoration with wide, sparkling eyes, the fact that sakura cried so hard when she thought sasuke died by yelling out his name a lot, the fact that sakura has dark sexual thoughts for sasuke even when she was 12 years old all indicate that sakura did obsess over sasuke like an idol. she put him up on the pedestal by thinking that sasuke's so cool, mysterious, and charming, sasuke can win any battles (remember lee vs sasuke), sasuke this, sasuke that. but as time went by, sakura saw that sasuke was not who she thought he was. still, that nostalgia of idolizing sasuke in her heart didn't fade.



Naruto acted the same towards Sakura in Part I. The difference is that Sakura matured from that way of thinking. Whenever Sasuke is brought up, we do not see idolization in her eyes, we see love (and broken heartedness). She did put him up on a pedestal, however ever since he fell off that pedestal she has seen the true, flawed Sasuke, and she still loves him. Since that time, she has not once thought of Sasuke in such a childish light.



> and that's just it. *sakura never had any real close bond with sasuke*. everything about the 'cool, mysterious' sasuke is in her mind.




They were close enough that Sasuke considered her one of his precious people, as he said during the Gaara fight in Part I.


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## Laylo (May 19, 2014)

> I could believe this, if Kishi gave the other pairings the same humorous treatment.



Oh but he does.

In the RTN chapter, uncanon as it made be, he gave NaruHina humor when he had Neji freak because he thought Naruto was trying to spy on Hinata. Plus there's that little bit with her crying because she thought Naruto was a pervert.

SasuSaku humor is strictly in part 1 but it's there. However in that defense, Naruto hasn't had a humorous moment with Sasuke either until their recent argument about Naruto not listening. I don't think anyone other than Taka has had a funny moment with Sasuke in all of part 2 either...



> Ok i'll be fair. That's quite a double-standard, but the difference is Sakura stopped acting like this in middle of part 1.



But no she didn't. As Kage just said, Sakura swooned over Konohamaru's Man-on-Man jutsu (which included a naked Sasuke on top of a naked Sai) in part 2.

Hell the whole point to that scene was to prove she's just as bad as the guys.



> naruto has not grown out of that phase. He's still like this in part II.
> Peeping on her at the bathhouse. I mean, its cool that he has flaws but the thing is its ''okay'' for him to be like this, because he's special.



Sakura has not either. When caught being hypocritical she tried to brush it off as if it never happened and got upset when the boys all looked at her funny, meaning she did not learn her lesson.

That wasn't supposed to be okay because, if you remember the scene right, Naruto was stopped by Yamato explaining EXACTLY why peeping was the exact opposite of okay.

As the audience though, we were just supposed to find it funny. Whether or not you did is your opinion but it doesn't appear to be a serious point against the couple.



> Even if he knows she doesn?t love him, it doesn?t stop him from falsely claiming she?s his girlfriend more than once and generally creeping on her.



It looks like the problem with Naruto saying she's his girlfriend has much to do with him A) seemingly staking a claim and B) seemingly putting his feelings above hers.

Both of those things Sakura has done with Sasuke. After all, she has acted before as if SHE knew what was best for him despite not completely understanding his situation OR his feelings.

At the end of part 1, she demanded that he stayed in Konoha because if he left she'd be 'sad and lonely'. And despite knowing how strongly he felt about getting his revenge she STILL had the gall to say that she could make him happier than revenge ever could. Although in the end she was ultimately right in that revenge didn't make him happy, she did not know that and she did not explain that beyond 'I'LL make you happy Sasuke!'.

Basically she was placing a claim on him as a person. HE can't leave the village because of HER. HE can't follow his dream because HER feelings would be hurt.

And then at the Kage Summit, Sakura believed that Sasuke should be killed and made an entire plan (a bad one but she still planned it) to pull it off.

This despite the fact that Sasuke DID NOT WANT TO DIE!

She was once again placing her (and Naruto's) feelings above Sasuke and claiming that SHE knew the best solution for him, basically claiming his life and trying to take control BEFORE Sasuke could really solve all of his problems.

Even though she couldn't succeed in the end, she actually had the thought that Sasuke was better off DEAD once again without understanding the situation nor his feelings.

Naruto teases Sakura a little and he's scum. But Sakura disregards Sasuke's feelings entirely and yet she's the noble one?   



> I don't actually think that's a valid excuse. That's like saying Sakura should have adopted Tsunade's habits of gambling and drinking, simply because she was under her tutelage.



Naruto had no parents and all of his mentors were perverts (including Sarutobi and Iruka). Naruto  had enough social grace to trash talk Kakashi and Jiraiya for being perverts which means he must've learned from someone that being a pervert is not acceptable, but he still slips up from time to time.

Sakura grew up in a normal house. So she had two parents to tell her that the reason there are stalls in the bathroom is because you don't watch people tinkle. She still wanted to watch Sasuke pee and KYAAA'd over Konohamaru's gay jutsu. 

There is no excuse for EITHER of their actions other than 'that's what turns them on' and more importantly 'humor'.


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## Selina Kyle (May 19, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> Naruto acted the same towards Sakura in Part I. The difference is that Sakura matured from that way of thinking. Whenever Sasuke is brought up, we do not see idolization in her eyes, we see love (and broken heartedness). She did put him up on a pedestal but every since he fell off that pedestal she has seen the true Sasuke, and she still loves him. Since that time, she has not once thought of Sasuke in such a childish light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the childish light was there before. she fantasized about him in dark ways and sometimes in childish fairy tale-like ways. she wanted to see him pee. 

she's still holding onto the part of the pedestal just a little by remembering what she thought she had seen in him. 

but now, sakura's hurt and sasuke's the cause. actually, it's more like sakura's hurting herself more by holding on to sasuke. she should let him go. 

i guess he did once see her as one of his precious people. not anymore.


and don't forget that naruto's love for sakura matured a lot too. he's a lot more selfless than before.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

Laylo said:


> Oh but he does.
> 
> In the RTN chapter, uncanon as it made be, he gave NaruHina humor when he had Neji freak because he thought Naruto was trying to spy on Hinata. Plus there's that little bit with her crying because she thought Naruto was a pervert.
> 
> ...



wtf.

Even if he knows she doesn’t harbor romantic feelings for him, it doesn’t stop him from falsely claiming she’s his girlfriend more than once and  creeping on her so I don’t buy the “he put her feelings first” theory.

Sakura's intentions were good and she was willing to give up her own happiness for naruto, hell for konoha. 
Naruto rejected her because nothing, not even Sakura’s feelings, is going to stop him. His pursuit of Sasuke is nothing to do with the PoaL at all. It’s his messiah complex.

As for Sakura disregarding Sasuke's feelings ? what ? 
in the beginning it was selfish because she wanted to be with Sasuke for herself. in chapter 3 when naruto made the forehead comment, inner sakura was like ''HES MINE'' so yeah it was about herself.

but after FoD it stopped being selfish. it was more about sasuke's well-being. When FoD happened Sakura saw that Sasuke was hurt and she did everything she could to help him and make sure he’s ok. 

Her care for him wasn’t because she expected him to love her back, that was the LAST thing on her mind. it's because sasuke is hurting, in the manga she even says to his face she doesn’t want to see him suffering.

in her confession scene she told him revenge won't bring him happiness and thats why she didn't want him to leave because he'll be unhappy. wanting happiness for someone doesn't mean disregarding someone's feelings. 

first of all, sakura doesn't want to change sasuke, she wants him out of darkness.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> Ideally yes but I feel since Kishi pretty much doesn't have any idea what to do with her anyway he's decided she's going to learn this lesson the long and hard way.




I don't think that's the case.




> Sasuke caring about Team 7 will be Sasuke caring about Team 7 and while that includes Sakura there needs to be more to it than that if we are talking about potential romance.




I'm saying that in addressing the relationship between Sakura and Sasuke, Sakura is looking for a final response from Sasuke as to what he feels for her as a person and as a potential partner. Whether Sasuke cares for her as a person is tied into his feelings for Teeam 7 as a whole, but in addition the romantic side of things has to be addressed in order for there to be closure for Sakura.


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## Selina Kyle (May 19, 2014)

why would there be a need for a final response from sasuke? 
he already rejected her before with a 'sakura, thank you.'

now, sakura only wants to save sasuke from darkness, nothing more.


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

Don't see the point of this conversation. Kishi throughout part 1 and early part 2 shove it down the readers throats that Sakura and Naruto had similar personalities.  Them being perverts, enjoying pranks, etc are just examples.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Laylo said:


> Oh but he does.
> 
> In the RTN chapter, uncanon as it made be, he gave NaruHina humor when he had Neji freak because he thought Naruto was trying to spy on Hinata. Plus there's that little bit with her crying because she thought Naruto was a pervert.
> 
> SasuSaku humor is strictly in part 1 but it's there. However in that defense, Naruto hasn't had a humorous moment with Sasuke either until their recent argument about Naruto not listening. I don't think anyone other than Taka has had a funny moment with Sasuke in all of part 2 either...



Again, I would believe this argument if he gave the other pairings _the same_ humorous treatment. In other words, in the same way that nearly every time Naruto's feelings are brought up it's in a comical light, Hinata's feelings would be treated comically, and Sakura's feelings would be treated comically as well.

That is not the case in canon. While, as Ch1p stated beautifully, the other girls did get some minor humour earlier in Part I, their feelings towards their respectful love interests has been treated quite reverently, unlike Naruto's feelings.



> Naruto had no parents and all of his mentors were perverts (including Sarutobi and Iruka). Naruto  had enough social grace to trash talk Kakashi and Jiraiya for being perverts which means he must've learned from someone that being a pervert is not acceptable, but he still slips up from time to time.



Exactly! Naruto knows better. Therefore, it is expected that he abandon that type of behavior altogether. But unfortunately instances of his flirtatious advances have been quite consistent throughout the story, meaning that he just does not "slip up from time to time." 

Let's be honest. I don't like it, but this behavior is solely for humour, which does not bode well for NaruSaku.


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## Michael Senpai (May 19, 2014)

> Don't see the point of this conversation. Kishi throughout part 1 and early part 2 shove it down the readers throats that Sakura and Naruto had similar personalities. Them being perverts, enjoying pranks, etc are just examples.


Lol that doesn't make them canon. In fact, it's part of the reason why they don't get along. He's not interesting to her because of that fact. They bounce off of eachother. They don't blend well because of the fact that they're so similar. In fact it's the small differences between them that make it worse as a couple. They make great friends, but a shitty couple. Cute? Sure. Compatible? No. Opposites attract.


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## Kage (May 19, 2014)

odango said:


> why would there be a need for a final response from sasuke?
> he already rejected her before with a 'sakura, thank you.'
> 
> now, sakura only wants to save sasuke from darkness, nothing more.



Yes. Sasuke's response to Sakura's confession isn't seen as the rejection it was.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

odango said:


> why would there be a need for a final response from sasuke?
> he already rejected her before with a 'sakura, thank you.'
> 
> now, sakura only wants to save sasuke from darkness, nothing more.



That expression of thanks may not have been enough for her, and I do believe that a simple "thanks" alone isn't enough closure. However, the times in which he attempted to kill her should have been enough of a response for her. But clearly it is not. Which is why in the last chapter Kishi is beginning to finally address their relationship once and for all. She not only wants to save him from darkness, she wants to know what he thinks of her as a person. Which, in my opinion, implies we are going to get a final response from Sasuke.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Ok i'll be fair. That's quite a double-standard, but the difference is Sakura stopped acting like this in middle of part 1.
> 
> naruto has not grown out of that phase. He's still like this in part II.
> Peeping on her at the bathhouse. I mean, its cool that he has flaws but the thing is its ''okay'' for him to be like this, because he's special.
> ...



Really I think it's far too late to be playing up this bullshit indignation of Naruto's sexism and immaturity. Particularly when we know Sakura isn't in better in either regard. Considerably worse where it counts...

Also it is hilarious to see THIS is what bothers you all and not say...Sasuke trying to kill her three times....which makes the indignation all the more disingenuous. Christ, where do you guys even got off getting mad about this when you are ready to act like attempts on one's life is some casual relationship flaw?


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## clementdong (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> In part 2: Minato asks Sakura if she is Naruto?s girlfriend. In an overwhelming display of disrespect and disregard for how she feels, Naruto dont allow her to speak even though the question was aimed at her, and he answers on her behalf without permission. Which makes her respond, as always, with anger. All this does is reinforce the one-sidedness.



As a Chinese I know that, taking Asian culture into consideration, Naruto's answer is normally seen as a sign of positive thing, like confidence and believe of love, although this seems to be a display of disrespect. I think it is ok that he express his feeling and are you sure that Minato is asking Sakura not Naruto the question?


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## Mr Horrible (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> Yes. Sasuke's response to Sakura's confession isn't seen as the rejection it was.



I take it this is similar to how some people interpret Naruto and Sai's conversation?

Or how Sasuke *always* smirks when Sakura's around?


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## clementdong (May 19, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> Again, I would believe this argument if he gave the other pairings _the same_ humorous treatment. In other words, in the same way that nearly every time Naruto's feelings are brought up it's in a comical light, Hinata's feelings would be treated comically, and Sakura's feelings would be treated comically as well.
> 
> That is not the case in canon. While, as Ch1p stated beautifully, the other girls did get some minor humour earlier in Part I, their feelings towards their respectful love interests has been treated quite reverently, unlike Naruto's feelings.
> 
> ...



This kind of humorous treatment is common in Japanese Manga, IMO. You can never take it seriously.


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## Hitt (May 19, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Really I think it's far too late to be playing up this bullshit indignation of Naruto's sexism and immaturity. Particularly when we know Sakura isn't in better in either regard. Considerably worse where it counts...
> 
> Also it is hilarious to see THIS is what bothers you all and not say...Sasuke trying to kill her three times....which makes the indignation all the more disingenuous. Christ, where do you guys even got off getting mad about this when you are ready to act like attempts on one's life is some casual relationship flaw?



It really illustrates how wretched SS really is when in order to prop it up the only recourse is to belittle other pairings on such trivialities as Naruto acting slightly pervy.  I mean none of these moments help the narrative of him "not being in love with Sakura" anyway.  And they're quite mild to begin with, AND as it has been repeatedly pointed out Sakura has the same tendencies, which just again points out how similar Naruto and Sakura really are.

If attacking other pairings is the order of the day, than I say SS has the biggest target of all slapped on it given that it has TWO, if not THREE murder attempts on it.  Every single moment in part 2 covering it has been negative too.  The last two chapters are just some of the final nails in the coffin, given that we really see Sakura (and Kakashi's observation) showing doubt as to her romantic feelings for him.  There really is no rational way to defend this pairing.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

Look, I don't care about Naruto and Sakura's flaws, there are plenty. But don't try to act like you have some moral indignation as to why you find distaste in their dynamics when you're trying to peddle shit like SasuSaku. Then when people bring up its own SEVERE shortcomings in that regard cry about it and try to get any discussion of it shut down. 

NaruHina and NaruSaku are bothersome, boring, and flawed, but in contrast to SasuSaku they are not repulsive on all conceivable levels. A prospective pairing in which one party has tried to actively murder the other has ZERO place in talking about the flaws of any other that is absent of that flaw.

No, it's clear here. It isn't what Naruto DOES that is bothersome, it is NARUTO is the one doing it that is bothersome. Because if Sasuke were in his place you can bet you'd have a reaction that could make enough water to break the Hoover Dam.


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Lol that doesn't make them canon. In fact, it's part of the reason why they don't get along. He's not interesting to her because of that fact. They bounce off of eachother. *They don't blend well because of the fact that they're so similar.* In fact it's the small differences between them that make it worse as a couple. They make great friends, but a shitty couple. Cute? Sure. Compatible? No. Opposites attract.


 
They blend a whole lot better than Sakura and Sasuke that's for sure.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

^^^^ for two people who blend well together, they don't even understand each other. 

Lol i love how y'all get riled up. And now y'all trying to play the Sakura and Naruto are similar card. 

as Ch1p stated upthread, the other girls did get some minor humour earlier in Part I, their feelings towards their respectful love interests has been treated quite reverently, unlike Naruto's feelings. I found Naruto's romantic advances are consistent and are still the same in part II. 

IDC. Repeadtly saying Sakura is his girlfriend is not cute or appealing in the slightest. He has done this both in part 1 and part 2. 

And someone upthread brought up Jiraiya ? I don't like Jiraiya's romantic advances towards Tsunade either. I'm also glad she friendzoned him for the same reasons.

LMFAOOOO SEXIST ? 
MALE ENTITLEMENT MUCH ? WHO TALKED ABOUT SEXISM ? 

Y'all mad.


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## TyranntX (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto's not in love with Hinata.
> 
> Sasuke's sure as hell not in love with Sakura.
> 
> ...



He's got a point, if you guys can't expect Sakura to "Make a 180"  twoards Naruto(even though she already has been since the last few chapters ) then shouldn't the same apply to Naruto to Hinata and Sasuke to Sakura? I'm sorry Divne, but that arguement of yours can be used on the other pairings as well as NS.

in the anime Naruto DID say he was in love with Sakura and try to win her over. and Naruto dose have a special power to change people. He's done it in so many story arcs that I've lost count. But I think that a good example would have to be the Zabuza story arc. The Village he went to was flat broke, it was a wonder how he was even employed. they were completely terrified of a tyrannical business man and his thugs. but Naruto to managed to convince one of them to fight back. and that one person managed to convince the whole village. Heck he even got Zabuza to side with him before he died. and he was trying to kill them before!

so what I think is happening to sakura is that she is starting to come around. but not instantly! no, that would be an ass pull. Even I agree with that. she is most likely going to completely fall for him and get over sasuke either by the end of THIS story arch, or some where in the NEXT one.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> Naruto's not in love with Hinata.
> 
> Sasuke's sure as hell not in love with Sakura.
> 
> ...



It Seem you forgot one son


Sakura sure as hell not in love with Naruto


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

clementdong said:


> This kind of humorous treatment is common in Japanese Manga, IMO. You can never take it seriously.


Again with the japanese manga argument. I know that Jiraiya's pervy advances towards women and Tsunade in particular is meant to be comical or humorous. 
I find Jiraiya's romantic advances gross. Don't get me wrong, I love Jiraiya but his romantic advances are quite creepy. 



Hitt said:


> If attacking other pairings is the order of the day, than I say SS has the biggest target of all slapped on it given that it has TWO, if not THREE murder attempts on it.  Every single moment in part 2 covering it has been negative too.  The last two chapters are just some of the final nails in the coffin, given that we really see Sakura (and Kakashi's observation) showing doubt as to her romantic feelings for him.  There really is no rational way to defend this pairing.



You're so funny. First you came outta no where. 
SS was not the subject of the conversation, someone mentioned Hinata and Sakura, so I made a comparison between Sakura and Hinata's romantic advances vs Naruto's romantic advances. You don't even what went down. So LOL at "attacking another pairing to prop SS" which wasn't even my point to begin with. 

Right now, I could "attack" - like you said NS more but I'm not bitter so I'll leave it here. 

SS is not dead. Kakashi was talking about Sakura's romantic feelings. And LOL, did you read last chapter ? Sakura thinks the man that she loves don't give her attention. Thats totally platonic. <- i'm being sarcastic here. 

Sakura also confirmed her feelings 24 hours ago but ok.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> ^^^^ for two people who blend well together, they don't even understand each other.
> 
> Lol i love how y'all get riled up. And now y'all trying to play the Sakura and Naruto are similar card.
> 
> ...



"Male entitlement"?

No. This is just trying to hop on the social justice wagon, an extension of trying to pitifully apply some bullshit moral standard now when the truth is you nor anyone else supporting SasuSaku is being consistent in doing so. One's sex does not dismiss the point made here.

It was arguments made in your camp about sexism, particularly that of Naruto being sexist whenever he saved Sakura, or advised her not to put herself in too much danger. With you specifically have brought up "male entitlement", it seems more clear than ever there is some degree of adoption of the sjw method of arguing, sadly and strangely enough. Keep going down the ladder though, soon enough I should probably expect to see people accused of being white...

Again, it is strange THAT is what bothers you, enough that you would find the prospect of a relationship between the two distasteful and even glad Tsunade rejected Jiraiya on similar basis, yet Sasuke trying to kill Sakura is clearly not enough for you to rescind support of that prospect. It's entirely inconsistent. Don't try to apply a moral standard now, you're not in the position.



TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Again with the japanese manga argument. I know that Jiraiya's pervy advances towards women and Tsunade in particular is meant to be comical or humorous.
> I still find Jiraiya's romantic advances gross. Don't get me wrong, I love Jiraiya but his romantic advances are quite creepy.
> 
> You're so funny. First you came outta no where.
> ...



You don't have nor do you have a place to apply some moral standard when you are ready, willing, and have tried to dismiss the fact that there are far worse acts between Sasuke and Sakura than with any other pairing mentioned in this thread. Your outrage is disingenuous.

It seems evident that you are not bothered that they were done so much so that you are bothered that Naruto was the one doing them.


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## TyranntX (May 19, 2014)

^wrong topic bra.

@kiba, another very good point. Kishimoto has done so mutch against SS that its almost like he hates the idea him self. but I don't know what else could happen to help divine see that. he can't Kill off sasuke because the fans will only say that sakura is with naruto because sasuke is dead. Likewise with NH why hinata hasn't been killed off yet. even though the story has been throwing some pretty strong hints as of late it seems like the best we can do is keep up the debate until something is made clear.

this has been said a dozen times already but I feel ike what sealed the deal with NS was the move RtN. and before you say "Thats a move and their for its not canon" just hear me out first. The move was written by Kishimoto, the guy who writes the manga. and fans today say that the whole thing is an NS moment. Naruto and Sakura connect in a way never before seen in the books. how you might ask? they switch life styles. Naruto finds out what its like to have a family and Sakura learns about the life of being not only the child of a hero but an orphan as well. and of corse in the end you have naruto saving sakura and they return to their world. not the issue is that this IS a movie and could be considered non canon. but it was written by kishimoto. so while it may not be considered canon to the ANIME, it could be canon to the MANGA. heck even the first to movies form act 1 got made into manga. perhaps in the far future we will see other movies get made into books too.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 19, 2014)

So...since you guys are talking about Kakashi confirming Sakura's feelings (even though he did the opposite, but let's go with that for sake of argument) you're basically now admitting third party observers now counts towards confirmation of whatever feelings a person has. So therefore.




Anyone trying to claim Naruto has feelings for Hinata is deluded to the nth degree. 

But PLEASE try to make the argument that he's somehow not without looking like hypocrites.


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## Radice (May 19, 2014)

Sasuke trying to kill Naruto = not abusive
Sasuke trying to kill Kakashi = not abusive
Sasuke trying to kill Karin = not abusive
Sasuke trying to kill Sakura = abusive.

I mean really? How do you even use the argument of ‘abusive’ to only honestly apply to SasuSaku?  


Everyone  can see, that Sakura still loves Sasuke. This chapter only confirmed it.  If there would be nothing romantic and important between Sasuke and Sakura, Kishimoto would not bring her feelings and her thoughts up whenever Sasuke is around or part of a conversation.


What about Sasuke? Kishimoto never revealed his feelings towards Sakura or anyone else except for Itachi. But if he wouldn’t plan on doing so, then why does he still pay attention to their bond? Naruto grabbed her, while Sasuke parried Madara’s shadows, but Sakura was again focused on Sasuke when she told Naruto not to worry about her.  Sakura only thinking about Sasuke while in naruto's arms.Compared with Chapter 675, now he’s literally telling us; Sakura still loves Sasuke, she wants him to care for her That’s only natural. You want the person you love and care for, to care for you as much as you care for them.


She was impressed by Sasuke’s susanoo and his abilities alone in chapter 676.
She was specifically worried about how and if Sasuke cares about her.
Just like Kishimoto addressed Naruto and Sakura’s relationship and Naruto and Sasuke’s relationship, he will address Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship  in a positive way. Some people can’t even allow for Sasuke to care for Sakura in the slightest or have any bond with her at all. Sasuke has to hate her..


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## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

Movies are not, nor will they ever be, canon. 

I think Naruto understands Hinata and Sakura plenty, I just don't get the impression they really understand him though. They see his vulnerabilities, but that isn't anywhere close to understanding who he is. One virtually idolizes him, the other is more or less his emotional parasite. He himself is pretty screwed up in the head too, either girl is going to have to accept they'll never be #1 in his life.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> So...since you guys are talking about Kakashi confirming Sakura's feelings (even though he did the opposite, but let's go with that for sake of argument) you're basically now admitting third party observers now counts towards confirmation of whatever feelings a person has. So therefore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hold on...where the fuck did I mention Naruto's feelings for Sakura ? 
I just talked about his gross romantic advances, thats it.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

Radice said:


> Sasuke trying to kill Naruto = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Kakashi = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Karin = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Sakura = abusive.



Your argument fails with this first paragraph. Because they are all terrible.


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

Radice said:


> Sasuke trying to kill Naruto = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Kakashi = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Karin = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Sakura = abusive.


 
don't see your point? Who's arguing that Sasuke hasn't been abusive to others?  This is a NS vs SS vs NH thread, and out of those three pairings only SS has been subject to multiple attempted murders. I mean who ever argues for Sasuke and Kakashi or Naruto when those are crack pairings? And yes SK is as bad as SS.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Hold on...where the fuck did I mention Naruto's feelings for Sakura ?
> I just talked about his gross romantic advances, thats it.



I wasn't talking to YOU specifically. 

I meant in general.


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## Kathutet (May 19, 2014)

The discussion is about the information the manga gives us. Not movies, the anime, fanart, spin offs, or a really cute poster you saw at some point.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> even depicted the rescuing of Sakura with the same chains that held Kushina during extraction.  I always found it funny that people would argue against movies being canon or representation of canon when the author himself is having a direct role in the story of that movie, having said that we aren't supposed to use RTN references in this thread.
> 
> The manga itself like I said before is littered with MinaKushi and NS parallels, so I can understand why non fans of the NS pairing try to dismiss them vehemently. Worst part is that NS is directly and indirectly supported by both parents of Naruto.  Not a good sign at all for those that wish NS to not be canon in the end.



Hey didn't Minato Say that Naruto is Far More like Kushina.   (More so than Sakura, he say maybe she a little like kushina?)   So  Naurto(Kushina)+Sakura(A Little like kushina)


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> even depicted the rescuing of Sakura with the same chains that held Kushina during extraction.  I always found it funny that people would argue against movies being canon or representation of canon when the author himself is having a direct role in the story of that movie, having said that we aren't supposed to use RTN references in this thread.
> 
> The manga itself like I said before is littered with MinaKushi and NS parallels, so I can understand why non fans of the NS pairing try to dismiss them vehemently. Worst part is that NS is directly and indirectly supported by both parents of Naruto.  Not a good sign at all for those that wish NS to not be canon in the end.



Yup.

Kushina directly and bluntly tells Naruto to find a girl like her. 

17 years later, Minato says Sakura reminds him of Kushina, his wife, aka a romantic partner whom he had a SON with, after said son calls said girl his girlfriend. 

That is *literally* the most direct parallel in this manga outside of the Rikudo Sons reincarnation bullshit, yet somehow it's being spun and twisted because of confirmation bias getting in the way.


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## Kathutet (May 19, 2014)




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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

kushina has been compared to Karin too. 
Does that mean NaruKarin will be canon too ? Lol.


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> Hey didn't Minato Say that Naruto is Far More like Kushina. (More so than Sakura, he say maybe she a little like kushina?) So Naurto(Kushina)+Sakura(A Little like kushina)


 and Sakura is like Naruto   Minato and Kushina are also alike in their goals and dreams.  Not only has kishi put an effort in drawing his parallels between the two pairings (which is flat out undeniable) but he's also made their characters consistent as they relate to one another.


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## TyranntX (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> kushina has been compared to Karin too.
> Does that mean NaruKarin will be canon too ? Lol.



All Karin really has going for her is the bloodline trait of the Uzumaki clan. and as said before Minato said that it was sakura who reminded her of Kushina. not Karin. so no not really


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> kushina has been compared to Karin too.
> Does that mean NaruKarin will be canon too ? Lol.



Manga Fact

+Naruto: exactly Like Kushina
+Karin: Like Kushina
-Sakura: maybe she a little like Kushina 

Sakura is losing


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> Manga Fact
> 
> +Naruto: exactly Like Kushina
> +Karin: Like Kushina
> ...


 unfortunately for you the only canon thing is Minato directly comparing Sakura to kushina.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> Manga Fact
> 
> +Naruto: exactly Like Kushina
> +Karin: Like Kushina
> ...



So basically naruto gonna fuck her own mom ?


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> So basically naruto gonna fuck her own mom ?


if that's the best counter you can muster to an argument you might as well concede that NS is the end pairing.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> and Sakura is like Naruto   Minato and Kushina are also alike in their goals and dreams.  Not only has kishi put an effort in drawing his parallels between the two pairings (which is flat out undeniable) but he's also made their characters consistent as they relate to one another.



Manga Fact

Sakrua Goals

+To be with Sasuke

+To have Sasuke childrens maybe

Naruto Goal

+ To Surpass the Hokage

+ To be Acknowledge By Everyone

+ To Be Hokage


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

and yet her dream is now for Naruto to be hokage.  Funny how things change when your supposed crush keeps trying to kill you.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> unfortunately for you the only canon thing is Minato directly comparing Sakura to kushina.



Are you sure about that


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> Are you sure about that


 
and like I said Naruto and Sakura are directly compared to one another, so what you just added only helps my point.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> and like I said Naruto and Sakura are directly compared to one another, so what you just added only helps my point.



So let me get this straight

I prove you wrong you go in to damge control mode

With this 

Manga Fact

Sakrua Goals

+To be with Sasuke

+To have Sasuke childrens maybe

Naruto Goal

+ To Surpass the Hokage

+ To be Acknowledge By Everyone

+ To Be Hokage

And what I have provided at the top


NS is in Tsuki no Me Keikaku


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> if that's the best counter you can muster to an argument you might as well concede that NS is the end pairing.



No. NS is dead in my eyes. I'd add more but someone will whine that i'm attacking NS to prop my ship so I'll leave at that. *kanye shrug*


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## AyamiCassi (May 19, 2014)

This is the most important parallel the manga give to us.
Naruto saves Sakura the same way Minato saves Kushina and makes she falls for him


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## TyranntX (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> So let me get this straight
> 
> I prove you wrong you go in to damge control mode
> 
> ...



Really... where was it in act 2 stated that Sakura wanted to have Sasuke's kids or even wanted to be with him. because I don't recall anything of the sort.


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## Chabal (May 19, 2014)

Radice said:


> Sasuke trying to kill Naruto = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Kakashi = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Karin = not abusive
> Sasuke trying to kill Sakura = abusive.



This is a strawman. Plenty of people have complained about Sasuke's treatment of his friends, Naruto and Karin included. You're breaking this thread's rules too by mentioning NaruSasu because this is explicitely a NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku debate thread. It's in the title. You also haven't read the first post.

Even if your oversimplification was accurate, it'd be a false equivalence anyway. Sasuke's abuse towards Sakura isn't the same as his abuse towards Naruto, because there's a rivalry aspect to his relationship with Naruto that often has the two of them engaging in battle. They're of equal power and the narrative has foreshadowed a final battle between the two. Simply put, Naruto can and will retaliate against Sasuke's attempts on his life. Until now Sakura has yet to lay a finger on Sasuke, she's far weaker than him meaning that she couldn't defend herself even if she wanted to, and the romantic aspect of the relationship makes it even more unpalatable to a lot of people than Naruto and Sasuke destined rivalry.






> Everyone can see that Sakura still loves Sasuke. This chapter only confirmed it.  If there would be nothing romantic and important between Sasuke and Sakura, Kishimoto would not bring her feelings and her thoughts up whenever Sasuke is around or part of a conversation.



I'm glad that we're condescending to people now because they have a different opinion about fictional pairings. This is an intelligent thing to do to ensure the conversation stays healthy.

The second part of this paragraph isn't an acceptable argument. Kishimoto can bring up her feelings because he wants SS to be endgame but he could also bring up her feelings because he wants to kill off SS for good. The way Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have been consistently portrayed in an overwhelmingly negative light during this arc and the previous one tells me the latter is more probable.



> What about Sasuke? Kishimoto never revealed his feelings towards Sakura or anyone else except for Itachi.



He's revealed his feelings towards Naruto. He admitted Naruto was his best friend at the end of part 1. We saw Sasuke being jealous of Naruto's power during this arc and we know he wants to kill him to "erase the past". Sasuke isn't the completely closed off individual SS arguments would like him to be. It's just a convenient way to dismiss the lack of interest from his part towards Sakura.



> But if he wouldn’t plan on doing so, then why does he still pay attention to their bond? Naruto grabbed her, while Sasuke parried Madara’s shadows, but Sakura was again focused on Sasuke when she told Naruto not to worry about her.  Sakura only thinking about Sasuke while in naruto's arms.Compared with Chapter 675, now he’s literally telling us; Sakura still loves Sasuke, she wants him to care for her That’s only natural. You want the person you love and care for, to care for you as much as you care for them.



He pays overwhelmingly negative attention to their bond. To me it's far worse than simply ignoring it. Sakura has been portrayed as distrustful of Sasuke for dozens of chapters now and Sasuke is still the same person who'd kill Sakura without a second thought. 

Sakura being sad that Sasuke doesn't care also isn't proof of romantic feelings. It fits with the alternative interpretation of Kakashi's words too: even if Sakura's feelings for Sasuke weren't romantic in nature it's normal for her to be sad that someone who was her first love and that she still wants to save from the darkness would completely disregard her life. 




> She was impressed by Sasuke’s susanoo and his abilities alone in chapter 676.
> She was specifically worried about how and if Sasuke cares about her.
> Just like Kishimoto addressed Naruto and Sakura’s relationship and Naruto and Sasuke’s relationship, he will address Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship  in a positive way. Some people can’t even allow for Sasuke to care for Sakura in the slightest or have any bond with her at all. Sasuke has to hate her..



You've lost me. It's not some people who draw Sasuke trying to kill Sakura twice in quick succession, Sakura being miserable every time she thinks about Sasuke, and Sasuke not caring about Sakura's well being with Sakura herself commenting on it so that no one could ignore it. 

I personally think Sasuke cares about Sakura and the rest of his friends somehow, deep deep deep deep deep down. It's just that minimum amount of care needed for his redemption wasn't enough to stop him from trying to kill her multiple times and leaving her to die at least twice. The fact so many people expect these weak feelings to turn into romantic love baffles me.


----------



## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

clementdong said:


> This kind of humorous treatment is common in Japanese Manga, IMO. You can never take it seriously.



And that's the problem. If Kishimoto treats Naruto's feelings comically most of the time, then naturally I am inclined to believe that they are not to be taken as seriously as Hinata's and Sakura's. Naruto is indeed a very multi-faceted character, and as the main hero obviously his priorities lie elsewhere. In my opinion, that is all the more reason for his feelings to be treated more reverently in the few instances that they are brought up.


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## Kage (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> It Seem you forgot one son
> Sakura sure as hell not in love with Naruto



I didn't forget I just didn't care.

She can be miserable loving a man that will never give her the time of day all she likes.



BeBreezy said:


> That expression of thanks may not have been enough for her, and I do believe that a simple "thanks" alone isn't enough closure. However, the times in which he attempted to kill her should have been enough of a response for her. But clearly it is not. Which is why in the last chapter Kishi is beginning to finally address their relationship once and for all. She not only wants to save him from darkness, she wants to know what he thinks of her as a person. Which, in my opinion, implies we are going to get a final response from Sasuke.



Again, it's not Sasuke's responsibility to put her mind at ease and he's not treating it as such. Not even inadvertently. A simple thanks is the way he cut his bond with Sakura and he hasn't looked back since. This may not be enough for Sakura to get the picture but that's why it continues to make her miserable. Feeling like he acts like he hates her/always makes him angry didn't stop her from confessing her love so is it any wonder why attempting to murder her didn't cut it either? 

I don't understand why anyone who actually _likes_ her would want her to continue to be unable to move past those destructive feelings whether she gets the closure she wants from Sasuke himself or not.

It's not admirable to endure such abuse for the sake of some childhood fantasy.


----------



## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> I didn't forget I just didn't care.
> 
> *She can be miserable loving a man that will never give her the time of day all she likes.*
> 
> ...



Naruto can be miserable loving a girl that will never give him the time of day all he want.   ( "I hate those people who lie to themselves")


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## Kage (May 19, 2014)

Sure.

Sakura's not his whole world so I think he'll be okay. Still wouldn't be in love with Hinata tho but what can you do.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

I do find a wealth of hypocrisy in the idea that because Naruto is not as melodramatic over his romantic interests as Sakura and Hinata are that he simply does not feel as deeply. Yet Sasuke, showing no shits at all on the matter, and showing a murderous rage towards potential partners, does or is supposed to feel romantic inclinations toward Sakura, BUT THE STORY JUST HASN'T GOTTEN AROUND TO IT YET! On that note what is with the difficulty in acknowledging no one's feelings seem to NOT be leading anywhere on a mutual level?



TRN said:


> Naruto can be miserable loving a girl that will never give him the time of day all he want.   ( "I hate those people who lie to themselves")



Man, are you so lost in your own false dichotomies that you have to bring up NS even to those it has no relevance to? Even worse you seem to act like it's clever doing it. What you did was not address her point at all. Twice.


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## Rinoa (May 19, 2014)




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## ch1p (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> Are you sure about that



Karin as well, lol.

The only thing that Sakura was compared to Kushina was the manzai routine. Which we know for a fact it isn't romantic. Kushina beat all her classmates and Naruto (who she has no romantic feelings for, despite being the bathouse's favourite). Sakura has beat more people than Naruto, such as Konohamaru and Sai.



TheDivineOneDannii said:


> No. NS is dead in my eyes. I'd add more but someone will whine that i'm attacking NS to prop my ship so I'll leave at that. *kanye shrug*







AyamiCassi said:


> This is the most important parallel the manga give to us.
> Naruto saves Sakura the same way Minato saves Kushina and makes she falls for him



But Sakura didn't fall for Naruto when she was saved. She still loved Sasuke and only him, as 540 implied. This "parallel" served no purpose.



BeBreezy said:


> And that's the problem. If Kishimoto treats Naruto's feelings comically most of the time, then naturally I am inclined to believe that they are not to be taken as seriously as Hinata's and Sakura's. Naruto is indeed a very multi-faceted character, and as the main hero obviously his priorities lie elsewhere. In my opinion, that is all the more reason for his feelings to be treated more reverently in the few instances that they are brought up.



Precisely.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (May 19, 2014)

Quick question, if Kishi wanted to go with NaruSaku from the very beginning wouldn't he have implemented the signs of Sakura shifting her romantic feelings from Sasuke to Naruto, especially after Naruto has constantly saved Sakura while Sasuke does the opposite? I mean it would just be random and terrible if she shifted her feelings in the final arc.


----------



## Chabal (May 19, 2014)

Bruce Wayne said:


> Quick question, if Kishi wanted to go with NaruSaku from the very beginning wouldn't he have implemented the signs of Sakura shifting her romantic feelings from Naruto to Sasuke, especially after Naruto has constantly saved Sakura while Sasuke does the opposite? I mean it would just be random and terrible if she shifted her feelings in the final arc.



He has implemented some signs anti NS people consider "delusional" from the NS side, so your question actually has no real answer. I suppose you're anti NS? Then you consider all the scenes pro NS people refer to as ambiguously romantic from Sakura's part as purely and undeniably platonic. The problem with that is, you can't know for sure until the end of the story. If Sakura switches from Sasuke to Naruto then it means the pro NS interpretation was right and Kishimoto foreshadowed it properly. If Sakura is still in love with Sasuke at the end then it means the anti NS interpretation was right. You have decided there's no pro NS scenes at all in the manga (which is IMO an absurd claim as even I as someone who's anti SS wouldn't say there's no pro SS moments at all in the manga) and so NS would be an asspull. Therefore there's no discussion possible.


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## TRN (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> Sure.
> 
> Sakura's not his whole world so I think he'll be okay. Still wouldn't be in love with Hinata tho but what can you do.



Who said anything about hinata.



Seto Kaiba said:


> I do find a wealth of hypocrisy in the idea that because Naruto is not as melodramatic over his romantic interests as Sakura and Hinata are that he simply does not feel as deeply. Yet Sasuke, showing no shits at all on the matter, and showing a murderous rage towards potential partners, does or is supposed to feel romantic inclinations toward Sakura, BUT THE STORY JUST HASN'T GOTTEN AROUND TO IT YET! On that note what is with the difficulty in acknowledging no one's feelings seem to NOT be leading anywhere on a mutual level?
> 
> 
> 
> Man, are you so lost in your own false dichotomies that you have to bring up NS even to those it has no relevance to? Even worse you seem to act like it's clever doing it. What you did was not address her point at all. Twice.



Sorry seto kaiba, I will try to address poeple point more


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## Nic (May 19, 2014)

Bruce Wayne said:


> Quick question, if Kishi wanted to go with NaruSaku from the very beginning wouldn't he have implemented the signs of Sakura shifting her romantic feelings from Sasuke to Naruto, especially after Naruto has constantly saved Sakura while Sasuke does the opposite? I mean it would just be random and terrible if she shifted her feelings in the final arc.


 
except he has multiple times in part 1 and part 2, 

such examples is Sai talking about how tender Sakura is to Naruto and not understanding those feelings, which is ironic considering Shikaku makes the statement to his son that women are tender to those they love. 

Sakura's endless private smiles about Naruto which are said again in the manga that are done when you love someone. 

Yamato's words that were cut off mid sentence about her feelings for Naruto. 

there's been plenty of hints throughout the manga that Sakura is harboring romantic feelings for Naruto. .


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Kage said:


> IAgain, it's not Sasuke's responsibility to put her mind at ease and he's not treating it as such. Not even inadvertently. A simple thanks is the way he cut his bond with Sakura and he hasn't looked back since. This may not be enough for Sakura to get the picture but that's why it continues to make her miserable. Feeling like he acts like he hates her/always makes him angry didn't stop her from confessing her love so is it any wonder why attempting to murder her didn't cut it either?
> 
> I don't understand why anyone who actually _likes_ her would want her to continue to be unable to move past those destructive feelings whether she gets the closure she wants from Sasuke himself or not.



My friend, we continue to go back and forth on this subject, but we are not getting anywhere because you continue to see things as they should be, instead of things as they are.

Sakura could have taken Sasuke's simple "thanks" in chapter 181 as a rejection of her feelings and moved on. _But she did not._ Sakura should have moved on from Sasuke after he attempted to kill her (and she him) on separate occasions. *But she didn't.* It is clear to me that Kishimoto has kept her love alive for this long because he wants to address it once and for all in conjunction with the re-evaluation of Team 7's bonds. He could have shifted her love interest long ago, but as of 676 she still wants to know what Sasuke thinks of/feels for her. Since this is the case, it means that Kishimoto did not intend for Sasuke's "thanks" to be a sign of rejection. 




> It's not admirable to endure such abuse for the sake of some childhood fantasy.




She is not enduring "abuse" because she is holding onto a fantasy. She still loves him.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Bruce Wayne said:


> Quick question, if Kishi wanted to go with NaruSaku from the very beginning wouldn't he have implemented the signs of Sakura shifting her romantic feelings from Sasuke to Naruto, especially after Naruto has constantly saved Sakura while Sasuke does the opposite? I mean it would just be random and terrible if she shifted her feelings in the final arc.




Agreed. It is claimed that there are instances throughout Part II where Sakura shows signs of having romantic feelings for Naruto, but after those instances Kishimoto again reinforces the fact that Sakura still loves Sasuke and only Sasuke. As of 676, Sasuke is still on her mind in a romantic light.


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## Nusakan (May 19, 2014)

AyamiCassi said:


> This is the most important parallel the manga give to us.
> Naruto saves Sakura the same way Minato saves Kushina and makes she falls for him




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Kakugo (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> except he has multiple times in part 1 and part 2,
> 
> such examples is Sai talking about how tender Sakura is to Naruto and not understanding those feelings, which is ironic considering Shikaku makes the statement to his son that women are tender to those they love.
> 
> ...



This. These are just some of the many indications that Kishi has placed throughout the manga illustrating that Sakura's feelings for Naruto have increasingly grown intimate/stronger in nature. There would be no purpose in doing so if Kishi didn't have something significant in mind for the two of them. 

For arguments sakes though, if Kishi had no intentions to develop NaruSaku as the end-game pairing, then ask yourselves this:

Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Naruto has always been (and still is) in love with Sakura? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?

Why is the extent of Sakura's feelings towards Naruto constantly brought to light throughout the manga, if it weren't meant to be anything significant? (ex. Take into account Yamato's remarks, Sai's remarks, Kakashi's remarks, Konohamaru's remarks, Gamakichi's remarks, Sakura's own remarks, her blushes towards him, her excessive concern towards him, her devotion to save/protect him, etc. The list goes on.)

Why is the extent of Sakura's feelings towards Sasuke constantly being put in a negative light, even to which she herself constantly doubts/questions?

Why does Naruto STILL not show ANY indication that he may harbor romantic feelings towards Hinata, after all this time? (Unlike Sakura, who has shown a shift in her feelings towards Naruto, Naruto himself has not shown ANY shift from his love towards Sakura. He's still very much in love with her).

Why has Kishi put so much more focus and attention on Naruto and Sakura's dynamics as a pair compared to that of anyone else? What would be the point, if it weren't meant to be significant?

Out of ALL the potential pairings, WHY is it that NaruSaku shares the most *mutual* chemistry/relationship with one another?

The answers to these should be simple: Kishi has placed focus on developing these two precisely because he has intended on such. We don't need to constantly be reminded about a friendship that we already knew existed between Naruto and Sakura. Thus, it makes sense to draw the conclusion that they are meant to share something *more* together. The manga facts are indisputable.


----------



## Nic (May 19, 2014)

Nusakan said:


> *Spoiler*: __



If we're going that route,


----------



## Kage (May 19, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> My friend, we continue to go back and forth on this subject, but we are not getting anywhere because you continue to see things as they should be, instead of things as they are.
> 
> Sakura could have taken Sasuke's simple "thanks" in chapter 181 as a rejection of her feelings and moved on. _But she did not._ Sakura should have moved on from Sasuke after he attempted to kill her (and she him) on separate occasions. *But she didn't.* It is clear to me that Kishimoto has kept her love alive for this long because he wants to address it once and for all in conjunction with the re-evaluation of Team 7's bonds. He could have shifted her love interest long ago, but as of 676 she still wants to know what Sasuke thinks of/feels for her. Since this is the case, it means that Kishimoto did not intend for Sasuke's "thanks" to be a sign of rejection.


Yeah I guess we're at the running in circles point because Sasuke leaving the village, likely without the intention of returning, after Sakura confesses her love and devotion sounds like a rejection to me and if it makes more sense to you that Sakura still can't get over the fact that _maybe_ he doesn't want her (not even the threat of mortal peril can convince her of this) rather than this just being a long hard lesson in moving on but not abandoning the hope of saving someone she cares about I dunno what to say.



BeBreezy said:


> She is not enduring "abuse" because she is holding onto a fantasy. She still loves him.


That's exactly what it is...they never were a couple so she has no obligation to him as a lover or really any right to demand answers regarding where his, of all things, _romantic_ preferences lie. Priorities.


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## Vash (May 19, 2014)

[img=i love this thread to life/death/chocolate cake]http://i26.tinypic.com/29pq6qb.jpg[/img]


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## ch1p (May 19, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> For arguments sakes though, if Kishi had no intentions to develop NaruSaku as the end-game pairing, then ask yourselves this:



Okay.



> Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Naruto has always been (and still is) in love with Sakura? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?



Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Sakura has always been (and still is) in love with Sasuke? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?

Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Hinata has always been (and still is) in love with Naruto? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?



> Why is the extent of Sakura's feelings towards Naruto constantly brought to light throughout the manga, if it weren't meant to be anything significant? (ex. Take into account Yamato's remarks, Sai's remarks, Kakashi's remarks, Konohamaru's remarks, Gamakichi's remarks, Sakura's own remarks, her blushes towards him, her excessive concern towards him, her devotion to save/protect him, etc. The list goes on.)



Yamato's remark was about Sakura's worth as a kuinochi, not about her love life. He doesn't know her or her feelings for Sasuke.

Sai remarked that Sakura is in love with Sasuke.

Kakashi remarked that Sakura is in love with Sasuke. You can check the raw translations that confirm this is the case.

Sakura has blushed towards Inari. Sasuke has blushed at Sakura, does he love her?

Sakura is concerned and wants to help Naruto because she's his friend. I like how you say Sakura is devoted to saving Naruto when just two chapters ago Kakashi remarked she's devoted to saving Sasuke.



> Why is the extent of Sakura's feelings towards Sasuke constantly being put in a negative light, even to which she herself constantly doubts/questions?



Kakashi said Sakura's feelings for Sasuke make her kind girl. That isn't negative, that's positive.



> Why does Naruto STILL not show ANY indication that he may harbor romantic feelings towards Hinata, after all this time?



Why does Sakura STILL not show ANY indication that she may harbor romantic feelings towards Naruto, after all this time? 



> Why has Kishi put so much more focus and attention on Naruto and Sakura's dynamics as a pair compared to that of anyone else? What would be the point, if it weren't meant to be significant?



That's because they're friends and teammates.



> Out of ALL the potential pairings, WHY is it that NaruSaku shares the most *mutual* chemistry/relationship with one another?



Mutual chemistry and NaruSaku?  That would be NaruHina.



Nic said:


> If we're going that route,



Don't miss the point, which is you're looking too much into these visual parallels when they either irrelevant or too common to care between pairings.


----------



## Nusakan (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> If we're going that route,



Sasuke saved Sakura  more times this away before than Naruto  and Sakura still loves only him.

Good Luck . For me it's pathetic to give more relevance  on oedipus complex than character's feelings.


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Nic (May 19, 2014)

Nusakan said:


> Sasuke saved Sakura more times this away before than Naruto and Sakura still loves only him.
> 
> Good Luck . It's really pathetic NS give more relevance on oedipus complex than character's feelings.
> 
> ...


 
yes I give a whole lot more relevance to images that show an Author's effort to make parallels to a parent pairing than I do about a side character's wavering feelings.


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 19, 2014)

TRN said:


> So let me get this straight
> 
> I prove you wrong you go in to damge control mode
> 
> ...



I love how you throw the 'maybe' in there to hide the fact that it's a bullshit fanwank goal . If you're going to take liberties like that then I can certainly amend Naruto's goals too.

Just an fyi though, both Naruto and Sasuke's goals have shifted significantly since chapter 3. Naruto realized that you become Hokage because people respect you, not the other way around, while Sasuke's goal to kill his brother worked out to be hilariously awful .



BeBreezy said:


> Sakura could have taken Sasuke's simple "thanks" in chapter 181 as a rejection of her feelings and moved on. _But she did not._



People don't just move on in this manga, I thought that was apparent. While something has to give somewhere, talking about lost opportunities like this is a fools game and doesn't add up to a decent argument.



> Sakura should have moved on from Sasuke after he attempted to kill her (and she him) on separate occasions. *But she didn't.* It is clear to me that Kishimoto has kept her love alive for this long because he wants to address it once and for all in conjunction with the re-evaluation of Team 7's bonds.



I agree. That being said I have to point out that SS got *real* dark right about the time Team 7 learned Sasuke joined the Akatsuki. Now before that it was still a terrible pairing and there was an abundance of evidence to show that however the tone shifted around ~450.



> He could have shifted her love interest long ago, but as of 676 she still wants to know what Sasuke thinks of/feels for her.



Works for all pairings and as such it's useless.



> Since this is the case, it means that Kishimoto did not intend for Sasuke's "thanks" to be a sign of rejection.



Good fucking lord .



Let's pursue the thread of Sasuke having feelings for Sakura at the end of Part 1 shall we? It means that despite caring about her for the entirety of Part 2, he still didn't show much of a fuck when going to murder her . I mean I guess the first time was a little better as Sasuke seemed mostly apathetic however the second time was without a doubt premeditated as Sakura is certainly in the panel of 'Konoha Laughing'.





> She is not enduring "abuse" because she is holding onto a fantasy. She still loves him.



Actually we've only seen flashbacks for Sakura's love for Sasuke (i.e. she thinks of who he used to be). Seems like the very definition of holding on to a fantasy to me.



Nusakan said:


> *Spoiler*: __



You think this is a parallel?



Nusakan said:


> Good Luck . For me it's pathetic to give more relevance  on oedipus complex than character's feelings.



You realise NS only gives weight to this 'oedipus complex' because the Kushina did right?

Just an fyi though, liking a girl who is similar to your mother doesn't mean you want to fuck your mother.


----------



## Kage (May 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> People don't just move on in this manga, I thought that was apparent. While something has to give somewhere, talking about lost opportunities like this is a fools game and doesn't add up to a decent argument.


Yeah. If Sakura hasn't snagged herself a boyfriend by now than it's because she has no intention of doing so unless it's Sasuke but Naruto still remaining single this far in doesn't hurt the possibility of being with Hinata in the future. Right?


----------



## Nusakan (May 19, 2014)

Nic said:


> yes I give a whole lot more relevance to images that show an Author's effort to make parallels to a parent pairing than I do about a side character's wavering feelings.



 Karin is another Kushina reencarnation.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Romanticide (May 19, 2014)

Nusakan said:


> Karin is another Kushina reencarnation.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


you don't know what reincarnation means. and karin and kushina have the chakra chains because they are RELATED.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> People don't just move on in this manga, I thought that was apparent. While something has to give somewhere, talking about lost opportunities like this is a fools game and doesn't add up to a decent argument.




You are saying the same thing I've been saying to *Kage*. Sakura simply isn't moving on from Sasuke, despite the way he left in 181 and his actions towards her throughout Part II. It appears Kishi is setting up for a final addressing of her feelings for Sasuke in which she gets closure from the man himself. If this is the case (and I think it is) then that means the "thanks" in 181 was not meant for closure, or was not final enough, not to mention his attempts on her life. This is not the way things should be, but it is the way things are at this point in the manga. I'm not necessarily making an argument for SS; I'm merely explaining the direction the manga is going right now in regards to Sakura's feelings.






> Works for all pairings and as such it's useless.



Kindly elaborate on this point.





> Good fucking lord .
> 
> Is this the sort of delusion that is common within SS?
> 
> Let's pursue the thread of Sasuke having feelings for Sakura at the end of Part 1 shall we? It means that despite caring about her for the entirety of Part 2, he still didn't show much of a fuck when going to murder her . I mean I guess the first time was a little better as Sasuke seemed mostly apathetic however the second time was without a doubt premeditated as Sakura is certainly in the panel of 'Konoha Laughing'.




Again, I am not making an argument for SS; I am just commenting on the direction that Kishi is taking with regards to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. Since he finds it necessary to readdress Sakura's love for Sasuke once more, it implies that Sasuke's expressed gratitude in chapter 181 was either not enough closure for Sakura to move on, or his thanks was not meant to be concluding in nature.





> Actually we've only seen flashbacks for Sakura's love for Sasuke (i.e. *she thinks of who he used to be*). Seems like the very definition of holding on to a fantasy to me.





			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> fan?ta?sy  [fan-tuh-see, -zee]  Show IPA
> noun, plural fan?ta?sies.
> 1. imagination, especially when extravagant and unrestrained.
> 2. the forming of mental images, especially wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.
> ...



Sounds to me like you have described Sakura holding onto her memories of the person Sasuke used to be, rather than a fantasy of him. The Sasuke we see in her flashbacks is not imagined. She is remembering a time in which she cared for Sasuke and their friendship, and he did the same. That Sasuke was very real--he was not a figment of her imagination.


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## Nusakan (May 19, 2014)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> you don't know what reincarnation means. and karin and kushina have the chakra chains because they are RELATED.




I know very well.
Don't tell me what i Know or don't

While Sakura has the same temper. Karin has the same abilities. 

It's funny to ignore Karin abilities as the same as kushina at the same time wanna to make Sakura parallel with Tsunade and Mito  because of  yin seal only in sake of NS. Parallel  is a  too superficial argument.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 19, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> She is not enduring "abuse" because she is holding onto a fantasy. She still loves him.



Her point stands. There's really nothing admirable about still loving a guy that tried to kill you.


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## BeBreezy (May 19, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Her point stands. There's really nothing admirable about still loving a guy that tried to kill you.



And I never refuted that point.


----------



## Romanticide (May 19, 2014)

I give up. There's no use debating when it just amounts to people ignoring manga facts. Bye.


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 19, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> You are saying the same thing I've been saying to *Kage*. Sakura simply isn't moving on from Sasuke, despite the way he left in 181 and his actions towards her throughout Part II. It appears Kishi is setting up for a final addressing of her feelings for Sasuke in which she gets closure from the man himself. If this is the case (and I think it is) then that means the "thanks" in 181 was not meant for closure, or was not final enough, not to mention his attempts on her life. This is not the way things should be, but it is the way things are at this point in the manga. I'm not necessarily making an argument for SS; I'm merely explaining the direction the manga is going right now in regards to Sakura's feelings.



I agree that Sakura's feelings are being set up to be addressed however we have very different expectations. This again is a neutral-loss game for SS as it doesn't deal at all with Sasuke's feelings (or lackthereof). 



> Kindly elaborate on this point.



Kishi could have shifted Hinata/Naruto/Sakura's love interest long ago, but as of 6xx he hasn't.

Also there's no fucking way Sakura is talking about Sasuke thinking of her romantically in 676, it's more about being a fundamentally decent human being to people you consider his friends.



> Again, I am not making an argument for SS;



We agree on that then .



> Sounds to me like you have described Sakura holding onto her memories of the person Sasuke used to be, rather than a fantasy of him. The Sasuke we see in her flashbacks is not imagined. She is remembering a time in which she cared for Sasuke and their friendship, and he did the same. That Sasuke was very real--he was not a figment of her imagination.



Expecting Sasuke to return to the boy he was in early part 1 after all of the shit he's done now is delusional.


----------



## Kage (May 19, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Also there's no fucking way Sakura is talking about Sasuke thinking of her romantically in 676, it's more about being a fundamentally decent human being to people you consider his friends.



I'd say it's a toss up.

On one hand you have what is rational and on the other you have _Sakura._

I'm actually giving Kishi the benefit of the doubt on this one because Sakura would really outdo even her Part I self if she's brooding about his lack of concern because it tramples on her hopes of becoming the Mrs. 

That's not maturing at all.


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## BeBreezy (May 20, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Also there's no fucking way Sakura is talking about Sasuke thinking of her romantically in 676, it's more about being a fundamentally decent human being to people you consider his friends.



And that inquiry about what Sasuke thinks of her is most likely motivated by her feelings for him, considering this is Sakura we are talking about. Almost any topic concerning Sasuke possesses a romantic undercurrent when viewed from Sakura's perspective. 




> Expecting Sasuke to return to the boy he was in early part 1 after all of the shit he's done now is delusional.




Expecting someone to revert back to who they were previously, and devoting effort to helping them change for the better are two different things.Both she and Naruto want to redeem Sasuke, not force him into regression.


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## Mr Horrible (May 20, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> And that inquiry about what Sasuke thinks of her is most likely motivated by her feelings for him, considering this is Sakura we are talking about. Almost any topic concerning Sasuke possesses a romantic undercurrent when viewed from Sakura's perspective.



Hilariously two-faced. SS screams up and down that anything Naruto does concerning Sakura is platonic unless blatantly otherwise and when you turn it around we're supposed to assume that *everything* Sakura does around Sasuke is about getting on his dick?



> Expecting someone to revert back to who they were previously, and devoting effort to helping them change for the better are two different things.Both she and Naruto want to redeem Sasuke, not force him into regression.



Not entirely sure what this has to do with the conversation.


----------



## Kakugo (May 20, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Sakura has always been (and still is) in love with Sasuke? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?
> 
> Why have we repeatedly been reminded that Hinata has always been (and still is) in love with Naruto? What purpose would there be to this, if it were unintended to go anywhere?



Sakura has shown plenty of indication throughout the manga (as well as recently) that her feelings towards both Naruto and Sasuke have respectively changed. She's been doubtful of her feelings towards Sasuke for a long time, and in retrospect has behaved rather intimately towards Naruto on a number of occasions. Thus, it's not unfounded to divulge in the notion that she has developed romantic feelings towards Naruto whilst still caring for Sasuke's well being.

Hinata has looked upon Naruto for both motivation and inspiration for her own self growth, which is primarily where her feelings towards him have been derived from. As a side character, she has never once indicated that she seeks romantic reciprocation from Naruto or expects as such, especially when it's known that Naruto is in love with Sakura. Hinata appears to be the type who would be happy regardless of whom he becomes romantically involved with. Naruto, on the other hand, has shown to be both hurt and sad over the thought of Sakura not loving him in return.

It's Interesting though that you completely avoided my question in regards to Naruto. Perhaps because you know that I have a point?



ch1p said:


> Yamato's remark was about Sakura's worth as a kuinochi, not about her love life. He doesn't know her or her feelings for Sasuke.



He doesn't have to know her or her feelings for Sasuke to be observant of what he sees in *front* of him. Claiming that he's talking about her "worth" as a kunoichi makes no sense, because in that very moment he states that what's important is the strength of Sakura's *feelings* towards Naruto. 







ch1p said:


> Sai remarked that Sakura is in love with Sasuke.



Sai remarked that Sakura is gentle towards Naruto.



Sai has reflected upon the fact that Sakura doesn't use any honorific with Naruto, which implies that they share a very close relationship.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Sai remarked that people always smile towards the one they love.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Sai remarked that even he can tell that Naruto truly loves Sakura.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Of course, there's plenty more.



ch1p said:


> Kakashi remarked that Sakura is in love with Sasuke. You can check the raw translations that confirm this is the case.



I have read the raws myself, and I have a very different interpretation of what was said from you.



ch1p said:


> Sakura has blushed towards Inari. Sasuke has blushed at Sakura, does he love her?



The context is completely different.


*Spoiler*: __ 

















Sakura's evolving feelings towards Naruto are both apparent and progressive, which is what makes her smiling faces and blushes towards him significant. On the other hand, Sasuke's "blush" towards Sakura bears no meaning upon the fact that he has demonstrated to not have *any* romantic interest in her. Additionally, he has tried to kill her multiple times, and even recently showed no concern towards her in the event that she was injured.



ch1p said:


> Sakura is concerned and wants to help Naruto because she's his friend. I like how you say Sakura is devoted to saving Naruto when just two chapters ago Kakashi remarked she's devoted to saving Sasuke.



Again, I have read the raws. What appears to be implied is that Sakura's resolve to help Sasuke is more-so out of duty than devotion. 

Kakashi: 何があろうと好いていたサスケを切り捨てず、サスケを闇から救うのは自分の役目だと思っている。

Duty =/= devotion. They are two completely different things. Regardless, she certainly hasn't demonstrated to be "devoted" to him, as you so claim. She continues to doubt him and question both his intentions as well as her own feelings towards him.



ch1p said:


> Kakashi said Sakura's feelings for Sasuke make her kind girl. That isn't negative, that's positive.



The fact that she cares for and has seemingly forgiven someone whose tried to kill her multiple times is what makes her a kind girl. That is the context of what is being said, not "you still love him, how kind of you!" That doesn't make any sense.

Either way, that isn't what I'm referring to. It's their dynamics as a whole that is continuously put in a negative light. The mutually repeated murder attempts, references in that there's a "distance" between them that isn't narrowing, Sakura feeling like shit when she thinks about what Sasuke has done/become, Sasuke not demonstrating to care about Sakura as a comrade or friend, etc. The list goes on. The toxicity of their relationship (or lack thereof) is evident to the point where even Sakura herself has reflected upon it. 



ch1p said:


> Why does Sakura STILL not show ANY indication that she may harbor romantic feelings towards Naruto, after all this time?



She has, and I think my earlier posts sums this up quite nicely.



ch1p said:


> Mutual chemistry and NaruSaku?  That would be NaruHina.



What? NaruHina hardly bares any mutual chemistry. Mutual chemistry requires having a familiarity and closeness to one another that exceeds anything Naruto and Hinata have collectively experienced together. Naruto barely knows anything about Hinata, and compared to Sakura, Hinata knows nothing of the hardships and struggles that Naruto has endured both as a jinchuuriki as well as a shinobi. Hinata has never given Naruto the comfort and companionship in the way that Sakura has. Hinata has never once thought about Naruto's on-going pursuit to rescue Sasuke from the darkness. Hinata has barely (if ever) spent the necessary time with Naruto to get to know him on any personal level. Hinata has barely (if ever) thought about Naruto's well being and best interests outside of her own self-loathing and insecurities. *Hinata has never once reflected upon Naruto's dreams to become hokage. Sakura, on the other hand, has.*

Compared to NaruSaku, NaruHina harbors no mutual chemistry at all.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 20, 2014)

ch1p said:
			
		

> Mutual chemistry and NaruSaku? That would be NaruHina.



How are you gonna laugh at that? Is the irony lost on you I wonder?

Do you even remember the main pairing you've been trying to push here?

I just...you know if a person is simply supportive of NaruHina they can say anything, a number of things about NaruSaku, and vice-versa. However throwing SasuSaku in the equation just makes everything illogical and inconsistent as far as the former is concerned. It just makes it seem like a hope that SasuSaku would take a piggyback ride on NaruHina's clearly more substantial and positive development and nature. Even if it may be of the lowest among the three by a long shot.


----------



## TyranntX (May 20, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Sakura has shown plenty of indication throughout the manga (as well as recently) that her feelings towards both Naruto and Sasuke have respectively changed. She's been doubtful of her feelings towards Sasuke for a long time, and in retrospect has behaved rather intimately towards Naruto on a number of occasions. Thus, it's not unfounded to divulge in the notion that she has developed romantic feelings towards Naruto whilst still caring for Sasuke's well being.
> 
> Hinata has looked upon Naruto for both motivation and inspiration for her own self growth, which is primarily where her feelings towards him have been derived from. As a side character, she has never once indicated that she seeks romantic reciprocation from Naruto or expects as such, especially when it's known that Naruto is in love with Sakura. Hinata appears to be the type who would be happy regardless of whom he becomes romantically involved with. Naruto, on the other hand, has shown to be both hurt and sad over the thought of Sakura not loving him in return.
> 
> ...



Another strong point. people say that NS has no romantic moments but they are wrong. Dose feeding him while he's tied to a post not count for any anything. What about her near sacrifice in the first part of the chuunin exams. what hinata did was cute I'll admit, but what SAKURA was about to do was ASTOUNDING! heck even if it worked more NS moments would shortly follow. Kishimoto did you a favor to NS there. but not that it matters now. since recent events are against SS.

As many have said before Naruto never changes, the people around him on the other hand do... so while naruto might not make a 180 towards Hinata, Sakura just may do one towards him. He is the hero after all, and hereos more times then not get the girl of their dreams in anime. Heroine or not that Girl is and forever will be sakura.

Lastly I'd like to say is that hinata dosn't need naruto to be happy. She'll be just as content alone as she would be with naruto. There's no real point really. Naruto on the other hand needs a girl like sakura, not just because she's the girl of his dreams but for another reason too! one thing fans seem to overlook is that Naruto has outbursts, and they could cause more harm than good. so he need a girl who is just as hot blooded and pig-headed as him to keep him in line. Some one who could match his unaugmented power. Hinata is far too Timid to fill those shoes, hell she'd get steamrolled is she even attempted. Sakura on the other hand has proved time and again that she is more than able to do such a task.


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## TRN (May 20, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> Another strong point. people say that NS has no romantic moments but they are wrong. Dose feeding him while he's tied to a post not count for any anything. What about her near sacrifice in the first part of the chuunin exams. what hinata did was cute I'll admit, but what SAKURA was about to do was ASTOUNDING! heck even if it worked more NS moments would shortly follow. NH fans, kishimoto did you a favor there. but not that it matters now. since recent events are against SS.
> 
> As many have said before Naruto never changes, the people around him on the other hand do... so while naruto might not make a 180 towards Hinata, Sakura just may do one towards him. *He is the hero after all, and hereos more times then not get the girl of their dreams in anime. Heroine or not that Girl is and forever will be sakura.*
> 
> Lastly I'd like to say is that hinata dosn't need naruto to be happy. She'll be just as content alone as she would be with naruto. There's no real point really. Naruto on the other hand needs a girl like sakura, not just because she's the girl of his dreams but for another reason too! one thing fans seem to overlook is that Naruto has outbursts, and they could cause more harm than good. so he need a girl who is just as hot blooded and pig-headed as him to keep him in line. Some one who could match his unaugmented power. Hinata is far too Timid to fill those shoes, hell she'd get steamrolled is she even attempted. Sakura on the other hand has proved time and again that she is more than able to do such a task.





Anything in there about what sakura want ( You know want to be with sasuke).   It look like all about what naruto should have (Me,ME.Me).  That  trophy wife


----------



## Nic (May 20, 2014)

TRN said:


> Anything in there about what sakura want ( You know want to be with sasuke). It look like all about what naruto should have (Me,ME.Me). That trophy wife


 
I thought this was a debate as to what will be canon, not what is fair.


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## Nusakan (May 20, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Sai remarked that Sakura is gentle towards Naruto.



that  misinterpretation 
Did you realize in this same chapter  happened this?


*Spoiler*: __ 














Sakura  visiting Sasuke  everyday and embracing him immediately after he wakes up.
Sakura was gentle only around Sasuke. Sakura still oves only Him. Try Again.



Kakugo said:


> The context is completely different.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




Let's not forget Sakura's blush around Sasuke


*Spoiler*: __ 










The most recent blush in this war  when she saw the same Sasuke who supposedly don't care to her helped her:







Sakura still loves Sasuke
She tells Naruto its alright and he doesn’t have to worry about her, but then wonders why Sasuke doesn’t worry about her  She also doesn’t Kakashi was as quiet as Sasuke, yet she doesn’t worry what sensei thinks of her. It is yet another moment where Sakura treats Sasuke differently, and yet another moment where Sakura shows that she wants Sasuke’s acknowledgement


----------



## BeBreezy (May 20, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Hilariously two-faced. *SS screams up and down that anything Naruto does concerning Sakura is platonic* unless blatantly otherwise and when you turn it around we're supposed to assume that *everything* Sakura does around Sasuke is about getting on his dick?




I was under the impression that you and I were discussing Sakura's feelings, not Naruto's. And please do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything close to the bolded.

Anyhow, it has been emphasized time and time again that Sakura loves Sasuke. She herself has hardly separated her feelings from any topic concerning Sasuke. So why should the audience do the same?





> Not entirely sure what this has to do with the conversation.




If I am not mistaken you claimed that Sakura is delusional for wanting her 12 year old Sasuke back. I said that she and Naruto merely want to rescue the Sasuke they knew, the Sasuke that cared about his friends and wanted to protect them, from this pit of darkness.There's a difference.


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## sapikcan (May 20, 2014)

So Kakashi thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke. 
Sai thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke. 
Naruto thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke. 
Karin thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke.
Sakura thinks that she loves Sasuke but somehow you are not convinced? 

She may have doubts about Sasuke but she has no doubts about her love towards him. She had times that she is sorry for loving a criminal, not the hero, but she couldn't help it. You cant choose whom do you love.

About Naruto and Hinata's chemistry...

Naruto, Obito, Nagato... All this guys wanted a peaceful wold. But both Nagato and Obito gave up at some point. What makes Naruto different from this guys is, he doesnt give up.

Or does he?

For example, before fighting vs Neji, he was desperate and almost giving up. Then talked to Hinata.

During Pein Fight he almost gave up and about to surrender. Then Hinata jumped in.

During Obito fight, after Neji's death, he almost gave up. Then Hinata slapped him.

This is called "staying by his side" thats the reason why he remembers now Hinata's cheers on him on 538th chapter.  Naruto is Hinata's role model, reason to hang on to life and Hinata is the person who slaps Naruto when he needs to be slapped. This is how they "complete eachother"  Also not to mention they love to use each others sentences when necessary such as "being selfish" or "never give up".


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## TyranntX (May 20, 2014)

TRN said:


> Anything in there about what sakura want ( You know want to be with sasuke).   It look like all about what naruto should have (Me,ME.Me).  That  trophy wife



Did sakura say anything about wanting to get with sasuke? No, she did not.


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 20, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> I was under the impression that you and I were discussing Sakura's feelings, not Naruto's. And please do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything close to the bolded.



My apologies.



> Anyhow, it has been emphasized time and time again that Sakura loves Sasuke. She herself has hardly separated her feelings from any topic concerning Sasuke. So why should the audience do the same?



Because it's pretty clear that Sakura also cares for Sasuke as an ex-team mate as well?



> If I am not mistaken you claimed that Sakura is delusional for wanting her 12 year old Sasuke back. I said that she and Naruto merely want to rescue the Sasuke they knew, the Sasuke that cared about his friends and wanted to protect them, from this pit of darkness.There's a difference.



I said Sakura thinking back to the 12 year old Sasuke that she loved was a fantasy, as it's delusional to think Sasuke will ever return to being that person.


----------



## Michael Senpai (May 21, 2014)

I think what needs to be said here is simple: A pairing can have all the "_*development*_" in the world in your own eyes, but if you aren't interpreting it correctly, and if the story line doesn't agree with it either way, Kishimoto could easily say FUCK your development and make something else happen. Not just because he's the author, but because, hell, it'll cause a nice stir in the fandoms, making more people nervous and interested. 

That being said, it doesn't take an idiot to realize that if Kishimoto stopped caring about SS, he would have stopped mentioning it. Same goes for NH.

As for NS, the same applies as well. But the fact remains, he's giving negative context to one, and the other two are receiving POSITIVE;
Example: NH- Naruto holding Hinata's hand, after it was foreshadowed that she would do so with him.
SS- Kakashi hinting at her still being in love with him, but a stronger love. Even the past chapter she was wondering if he still cared about her? And then he jumps to save her whilst Naruto pulls her away? I'd say he still cares. And as his feelings are ambiguous at the moment, if Kishi really stopped caring about the pairing, he WOULD NOT HAVE ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE AT ALL.

Whilst NS- Sakura head butting him and non-verbally rejecting his asspull.

We can run in circles about development all day long, but if 2 are more strongly hinted at, in a positive light,  than 1 near the end of the story, and the 2 prevent 1 from happening, it's not exactly a good sign for 1. That 1 being NS.

If Sakura is in love with Sasuke still (which she is) than NS has slim to 0 chance of happening.

If Naruto has shown to reciprocate feelings to Hinata, the foreshadowing also pointing towards this, and shown him to be rejected by Sakura, NS HAS 0 CHANCE OF HAPPENING.

If Sasuke's feelings towards Sakura are as they have been predicted, NS is almost guaranteed to not happen.

Sakura has been shown to have no feelings for Naruto,
Naruto has been shown to reciprocate feelings for Hinata,
And Sasuke is the only one who's ambiguous in this matter.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 21, 2014)

naruto and sakura held hands long before hinata did with naruto. 
sakura even gave him a light tap on the cheek too before. 
but both prove that while there is a development in the relationship, neither one really moves toward romance. 
more like closeness in bonds. 
sakura loving sasuke doesn't mean that ss wins automatically and the same goes for nh.


----------



## Michael Senpai (May 21, 2014)

Never said it did automatically mean SS and NH win. It means that one is pretty much screwed, even if the whole fucking circle jerk doesn't work itself out.
Sasuke may not love Sakura, but she still doesn't love Naruto. Naruto may go ahead and date Hinata and find out it's not meant to be, but if Sakura doesn't like him, NS won't happen.
He could fuck us all.

But that's not what the debate is about now is it?


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 21, 2014)

i don't see naruto reciprocating feelings for hinata. 
sasuke's not ambiguous in anything. he doesn't like sakura at all. he doesn't care about anyone except himself. 
the one who's really ambiguous here is sakura. 
sakura's been slowly showing something toward naruto, but even the readers can't figure out what been going through her head a lot. 
and she's the bad liar of the series.


----------



## Scila9 (May 21, 2014)

Haven't been keeping up with this thread  Don't know where everyone else is at, but imma dive in here for a sec.

I like both NH and NS. My preference between the two flunctuates. I'll be happy with either couple. As far as debating what pairing will be canon goes, I think NH and NS both have a lot going for them. Kishi has been baiting both rather consistently. Does he have an endgame pairing in mind? Eh maybe. He might troll us all though...

- For a while I thought it'd be NS. 

- Then Hinata's confession happened and I thought, okay, maybe NH. 

- The confession was never discussed and I thought, still NS??

- Kage Summit happened and I thought WTF?! 

- Kushina's flashback telling Naruto to find a girl like her made me think NS. NS for sure now.

- 615 still had me thinking NS. In fact, back then it felt like that was the last big thing that would happen with Hinata. The 'finale' for her character, ya know? But now I'm thinking she might get another big spotlight in the future 

That all being said, atm I still think NS is endgame if there even is an endgame Why? Welp, I'm probably gonna get heat for this. 
Cuz of the Kushina/Sakura parallel 

 I know many people dislike parallels, but Kishi obviously doesn't. And he's done this whole "girl like your mother thing" before in Mario. I honestly think it's a shtick of his. The whole introduction of that parallel in the first place and Minato's comment on top of it really makes me believe that if Kishi does have an endgame pairing in mind then it will be NS. 

I enjoy NH moments, like the one in this last chapter, but ever since Minato shat on NH like he did it feels like trolling to me more than foreshadowing. I think the only way my mind will switch back to thinking NH will be canon is if the parallel is brought up again and it's actually stated that Naruto should find someone more like his father/Hinata/not his mother. That, or Naruto outright says he loves Hinata back.

As for SS  
*Spoiler*: __ 



SS is just garbage no matter how you swing it. It does not need to happen for NH to be credible and if NH is canonized SS does not get to ride on it's coattails. It literally has _nothing_ going for it except "Sakura loves Sasuke" and that's where all the pairings started out in the first place  "Naruto loves Sakura" and "Hinata loves Naruto." Each pairing grew from there. SS had decent development in Part 1. Not enough to warrant all this "tragic, star-crossed lovers" bullshit, but decent, friendly development (I'm talking about mutual feelings here, not unreciprocated romantic ones). All of that has gone down the crapper with Part 2. SS is the only pairing that has *regressed*. 

Do I believe that Sakura and Sasuke can regain their friendly development from Part 1? Regain the bond they had before? Sure, it won't be exactly the same, but I think they can be friends (If Sasuke stops being a dick). Anything more than that? NO. Not in the timespan of the manga anyway, and an SS timeskipped ending would be more BS. Like I said, SS has regressed from the small chance it had to begin with.

And don't bring up Naruto and Sasuke's bond to me like it's a parallel of SS. Naruto doesn't desire anything more than friendship so it's, guess what? BS

Naruto and Sasuke will become friends again hopefully. Sakura and Sasuke will become friends again hopefully. They won't skip right over to being lovers. Also, don't forget Sasuke has tried to *kill them*. Probably will try again with Naruto in the future. Them being friends is miraculous in and of  itself.


----------



## TyranntX (May 21, 2014)

^this guy's talking sense. He doesn't even ship ns and he knows its going to be canon


----------



## Scila9 (May 21, 2014)

^ I know nothing. Basically all I said up there is that I can't bring myself to disregard the whole Kushina thing as "just a parallel" and that SS is bad. Like _really_ bad.

btw I'm a chick


----------



## LesExit (May 21, 2014)

TyranntX said:


> ^this guy's talking sense. He doesn't even ship ns and he knows its going to be canon


So...the argument right now is basically relying on parallels between Sakura/Kushina? I don't remotely understand why people think that is a strong argument. Personality wise both Sakura and Naruto are related to Kushina. Talent wise-Naruto has been paralleled with Minato, and Kushina too by Minato himself(When he was fighting with Naruto. Minato felt like he was with Kushina when he was with Naruto.....yet Sakura is supposed to parallel Kushina, and Naruto Minato? wut O___O??). However maybe talent doesn't matter, because the Sakura/Kushina parallels are based off of their superficial brash personality types. Yet for some reason this parallel, is supposed to make up for the lack of NS development, surpass the interactions between Naruto and Hinata, and Sakura's continuously restated love for Sasuke. No...it doesn't add up at all. I think the argument shows just how little NS has to support itself.


TheWebbstir said:


> btw I'm a chick


..... 


*Spoiler*: __ 




It looks pissed off :3


----------



## Schweinsteiger (May 21, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> I think what needs to be said here is simple: A pairing can have all the "_*development*_" in the world in your own eyes, but if you aren't interpreting it correctly, and if the story line doesn't agree with it either way, Kishimoto could easily say FUCK your development and make something else happen. Not just because he's the author, but because, hell, it'll cause a nice stir in the fandoms, making more people nervous and interested.
> 
> That being said, it doesn't take an idiot to realize that if Kishimoto stopped caring about SS, he would have stopped mentioning it. Same goes for NH.
> 
> ...



The post by @Kakugo completely destroys your post that has zero manga scans and just your opinion.


----------



## sapikcan (May 21, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I think the only way my mind will switch back to thinking NH will be canon is if the parallel is brought up again and it's actually stated that Naruto should find someone more like his father/Hinata/not his mother. That, or Naruto outright says he loves Hinata back.


I used to think that "lookin for a girl like your mother" is a stupid idea but, dude, "looking for a girl like your father"????? 

This could be the most stupid idea i've ever heard my entire life by far. 

Dont get me wrong, i'm a naruhina fan and i understand what u really mean but seriously???

"This girl is like my father, i should bang her"


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## Scila9 (May 21, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> I used to think that "lookin for a girl like your mother" is a stupid idea but, dude, "looking for a girl like your father"?????
> 
> This could be the most stupid idea i've ever heard my entire life by far.
> 
> ...





Don't make it sound so creepy! 

I mentioned that because of arguments I've heard in the past suggesting that since Naruto's so much like his mom he should find a girl like his dad instead. Like more reserved/quieter. I didnt think about it like that ^


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 22, 2014)

LesExit said:


> So...the argument right now is basically relying on parallels between Sakura/Kushina? I don't remotely understand why people think that is a strong argument. Personality wise both Sakura and Naruto are related to Kushina. Talent wise-Naruto has been paralleled with Minato, and Kushina too by Minato himself(When he was fighting with Naruto. Minato felt like he was with Kushina when he was with Naruto.....yet Sakura is supposed to parallel Kushina, and Naruto Minato? wut O___O??). However maybe talent doesn't matter, because the Sakura/Kushina parallels are based off of their superficial brash personality types. Yet for some reason this parallel, is supposed to make up for the lack of NS development, surpass the interactions between Naruto and Hinata, and Sakura's continuously restated love for Sasuke. No...it doesn't add up at all. I think the argument shows just how little NS has to support itself.
> 
> .....: iria
> 
> ...



lol rly 
if it was only that simple 
this is why pairing arguments go in full circle after another circle....


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## Eternity (May 22, 2014)

odango said:


> i don't see naruto reciprocating feelings for hinata.
> sasuke's not ambiguous in anything. he doesn't like sakura at all. he doesn't care about anyone except himself.
> the one who's really ambiguous here is sakura.
> sakura's been slowly showing something toward naruto, but even the readers can't figure out what been going through her head a lot.
> and she's the bad liar of the series.


*
"I don't see Naruto reciprocating feelings for Hinata."*

I do. Opinion vs opinion. 
I am not going to elaborate my stance on this, as I have discussed this before, and so have many others.
*
"Sasuke's not ambiguous in anything."*

He said he wanted to be a Hokage, but it has been hinted that that is not his real goal. Is that not ambigous?
*
"He doesn't like sakura at all."*

I am not so sure. What I am sure about, is that he cares more about his goal than he does Sakura. That doesn't mean he doesn't care, or like her at all. But for the time being, I will agree that him not liking her is a good possiblity.
*
"He doesn't care about anyone except himself."*

And Itachi. And his clan.


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## Eternity (May 22, 2014)

> It's hilarious because this thread has had plenty of manga scans posted here supporting NS moments (repeatedly might I add), from myself included. I have yet to actually see a NH/SS manga scan that actually drives home a strong point supporting those pairings.
> 
> Only NS.


I hold quite the opposite opinion. I have seen good manga evidence from both side, but hold with NH as the one having the strongest moments in the manga. Your next to last sentence I would say right back, as I too have yet to see a NS manga scan that actyally drives home a strong point to support it as a romantic pair.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 22, 2014)

Eternity said:


> This is called slander, and is a indiriect way of attacking the person instead of what is being said. Could you keep this out of the debate?
> 
> I hold quite the opposite opinion. I have seen good manga evidence from both side, but hold with NH as the one having the strongest moments in the manga. Your next to last sentence I would say right back, as I too have yet to see a NS manga scan that actyally drives home a strong point to support it as a romantic pair.



Strongest moments? Based on what? A handhold? Hinata and Naruto barely interact with each other, let alone enough to form a bond strong enough to hold a relationship that would last. 

This is the main problem with their relationship. You all expect a girl and guy who barely know anything about each other other than what's on the surface to have a long healthy relationship, when in reality it'd just be awkward for all parties involved. 

Because even IF (which is extremely doubtful but I'll humour you) NS was strictly platonic, their relationship would be far more meaningful than NH/SS could ever hope to be.


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## Risyth (May 22, 2014)

^The naked bathing scene.

^The many CE scenes.


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## Eternity (May 22, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Strongest moments? Based on what? A handhold? Hinata and Naruto barely interact with each other, let alone enough to form a bond strong enough to hold a relationship that would last.



If you want my full view on this, browse the thread. I am not going to repeat myself over and over again. This topic has been bled dry.



> This is the main problem with their relationship. You all expect a girl and guy who barely know anything about each other other than what's on the surface to have a long healthy relationship, when in reality it'd just be awkward for all parties involved.



I am really close to writing a 200 page essay about just how wrong you are. I agree, they have not been talking a lot together, but the interaction they have had throught he manga (in the war spesifically) is not superficial interactions. And they know plenty about the things about the other that matters. Like their characters. And they accept each other for who they are.

Seriously. To everyone here: I am not going to debate with anyone that doesn't put the effort into knowing what the other side has already said.  (Not individually, but the generally accepted opinions and instances of pairing manga evidence). This is not to attack anyone, but to make sure this debate has some kind of resemblance to an actual debate.



> Because even IF (which is extremely doubtful but I'll humour you) NS was strictly platonic, their relationship would be far more meaningful than NH/SS could ever hope to be.



No.


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## Michael Senpai (May 22, 2014)

"That's only your opinion!"
No that's logic. But yes, it does include some of my opinion. But that's what this whole debate is about is your opinion on the manga panels and what you think is going to happen.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 22, 2014)

Eternity said:


> If you want my full view on this, browse the thread. I am not going to repeat myself over and over again. This topic has been bled dry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, please go ahead. Please humor me on how Hinata knows Naruto, his likes, dislikes, how he's kept in line, insecurities. And please use canon evidence that makes sense in context, not  deluded fanfiction fantasies that I see constantly being used in this thread. 

I've seen it all, but here's hoping you come up with something more original. Doubtful, but one can dream.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 22, 2014)

I COULD do this but I won't do this and I could prove that but I won't do that, but I'll tell you how much I can do this and that while completely avoiding any argument you make.


----------



## ch1p (May 22, 2014)

Kakugo said:


> Sakura has shown plenty of indication throughout the manga (as well as recently) that her feelings towards both Naruto and Sasuke have respectively changed. She's been doubtful of her feelings towards Sasuke for a long time, and in retrospect has behaved rather intimately towards Naruto on a number of occasions. Thus, it's not unfounded to divulge in the notion that she has developed romantic feelings towards Naruto whilst still caring for Sasuke's well being.



No, there really isn't any proof of what you say. 540 shows no ambiguity and comes straight from the source. Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone.



> Hinata has looked upon Naruto for both motivation and inspiration for her own self growth, which is primarily where her feelings towards him have been derived from. As a side character, she has never once indicated that she seeks romantic reciprocation from Naruto or expects as such, especially when it's known that Naruto is in love with Sakura. Hinata appears to be the type who would be happy regardless of whom he becomes romantically involved with. Naruto, on the other hand, has shown to be both hurt and sad over the thought of Sakura not loving him in return.



Hinata told Naruto she loves him and then stated that she's going to stand by his side. Since you see NaruSaku clues where there aren't any, it astonishes me that you think Hinata's pursue is platonic.



> It's Interesting though that you completely avoided my question in regards to Naruto. Perhaps because you know that I have a point?



I didn't avoid the question. I was just pointing out your double standards, because Sakura and Hinata both fit into that same reasoning.

TBH, whether Naruto loves Sakura or not, to what level, to me is petty discussion which doesn't matter.

Most of the time, Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are treated as part of a joke. When they're taken seriously, it's either to establish Naruto feels it's hopeless or that he believes / takes a step back in Sakura -> Sasuke more. The narrative isn't in agreement with NaruSaku having a positive romantic resolution.

Furthermore, Naruto shows repeatedly that he has no issue accepting Hinata in his life, even after she romantically confessed to him. Either Naruto's a douchebag for stringing the girl on (because she has been bolder and bolder since her confession) or the narrative is in agreement with NaruHina having a positive romantic resolution.



> He doesn't have to know her or her feelings for Sasuke to be observant of what he sees in *front* of him. Claiming that he's talking about her "worth" as a kunoichi makes no sense, because in that very moment he states that what's important is the strength of Sakura's *feelings* towards Naruto.



Chapter 540 shows without any doubt that Sakura loves Sasuke and him alone. Furthermore, the conversation from Yamato is not about her romantic feelings.

Sakura is attempting to heal Naruto, and its noted that its going slower than it should be, because of Kurama's interference. Then Sakura asks Yamato to teach her wood style sealing. Yamato tells her that he can't, because this is something only Hashirama could do. Sakura then replies that she can do only the lame things for Naruto, in other words that she can't help him properly (the healing is going slow, she can't do wood style sealing). Yamato then replies that it's the strenght of feelings that count. Which is the truth by the way. Sakura doesn't need to fullfill all these roles to be of help to Naruto. All it matters is that she's his friend and she does everything she can to help him.

This wish to help Naruto doesn't necessarily mean it's romantic and we know from 540 (amongst others) that it is not. First, because Yamato doesn't know Sakura and it would be extremely out of lime for him to be commenting on such an intimate topic about someone he just met (the fact that he is shocked that Sakura is confessing to Naruto later on is indicative that he doesn't see this well). Second, if you're so keen on this idea, you have to accept that Sakura is in love with Sasuke because, as Kakashi put it, she wants to help him too.



> Sai remarked that Sakura is gentle towards Naruto.



Ah, Shikamaru's line in chapter 172. But in that    Sakura is gentle with Sasuke instead...

Sakura may be gentle with Naruto, but she's also "violent", and she is this towards many people. And... Hinata is very gentle towards Naruto.



> Sai has reflected upon the fact that Sakura doesn't use any honorific with Naruto, which implies that they share a very close relationship.



Sakura doesn't use any honorific towards Sai either. Or Kiba.



> Sai remarked that people always smile towards the one they love.



Actually, Sai said 'like'.   ' . I could make an equivalent list with Naruto -> Kakashi or... Sakura -> Sasuke.



> Sai remarked that even he can tell that Naruto truly loves Sakura.



Sai also said Sakura  .



> Of course, there's plenty more.



And all of them are irrelevant.



> I have read the raws myself, and I have a very different interpretation of what was said from you.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...



Your interpretation is wrong. MS / MP / VIZ, several translators, including many who aren't SS fans (one of them a SN fan and another being takl).

You say duty as if that means anything bad. Japanese take duty seriously and take it as part of their honour conduct, so there's nothing bad about it being duty. Furthermore, Sai said that *because Sakura loved Sasuke, she saw it as her duty to do something about him not falling to darkness anymore*. Sounds familiar? Kakashi is saying the same as Sai said back then. It's called cohesion and consistence.

There's no difference between Sakura forgiving Sasuke, while thinking he's a friend or someone she loves. Second, the fact that Kakashi speaks of her romantic feelings for Sasuke and then speaks of her wish to help him, then punctuates everything with 'you're a kind girl' without specifying exactly what peart of it is, means that its _the whole thing_.

You say their relationship is negative, but the truth is that its not, not from the manga's perspective. Sasuke thanked Sakura for everything she did for him, so he (at least) values it as something positive and to be grateful for. Sakura couldn't kill Sasuke because of her feelings for him, and this one is quite self-explanatory. Kakashi said that she's a kind girl for still having feelings for him as well. It's of no consequence whether Sakura has platonic or romantic feelings for Sasuke. She would have suffered for his sake even if she saw him as a friend. For example, Naruto and even Kakashi were all under a similar "negative light towards Sasuke. Worse of all, the Sasuke and Itachi relationship, heavily negative and yet... was based on strong love abnd had a happy ending.



> The context is completely different. Sakura's evolving feelings towards Naruto are both apparent and progressive, which is what makes her smiling faces and blushes towards him significant. On the other hand, Sasuke's "blush" towards Sakura bears no meaning upon the fact that he has demonstrated to not have any romantic interest in her.



It's not different at all, because Sakura was fishing for compliments from Naruto when she blushed. Inari was giving her compliments when she blushed. In both instances, it was about being praised as a pretty girl.

When Sakura blushed when she was a child, it was a stylistic choice and she blushed towards everyone including Kakashi. However, Sasuke in chapter 4, that wasn't a stylistic choice because Kishi chose to draw it there even with his new drawing style. Pay attention, I'm not saying he's in love with her.



> Additionally, he has tried to kill her multiple times, and even recently showed no concern towards her in the event that she was injured.



That's quite irrelevant. The fact that he tried to kill her doesn't invalidate that he was embarassed by Sakura coming onto him once upon a time.



> She has, and I think my earlier posts sums this up quite nicely.



In a NaruSaku fanfic, but not in the manga.

cont. below


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are again and again confirmed, inside and outside the manga including by the author in interviews, but it's somehow up to discussion. However, Naruto's feelings, who have never been stated outright by himself, are somehow more legit. Lol NaruSaku.



Engaging in tricky little word games to differentiate Naruto and Sakura's feelings doesn't accomplish much other than a cute little argument. Naruto implicitly confirmed his feelings to sai and since then we have still gotten snippets of naruto's affection.



> Hinata has been by Naruto's side since she was a child, watching him. Since she has noticed how hard he has worked for other people's acknowledgement, it's safe to say she'd know what he likes and what dislikes with reasonable accuracy, but nothing that wouldn't be easily solved by going on a date to know each other.



Sakura has actually shown a better understanding of Naruto and his capabilities than Hinata has.



> I agree. I'd advise not to fall into the same mistakes as the NaruSaku relationship. This whole 'bang your mommy / daddy' is creepy. And doesn't make in sense either. I'm sure that when Kushina said 'find a girl like me' isn't 'find someone who will hit you when you're being stupid'. Why would she want that? Plus, a friend can do that just fine. Someone who loves him is not something that a vanilla friend can do however.



Interesting how you don't find Hinata stalking Naruto for years or Sakura loving an abusive asshole creepy, just NS . I'm also pretty sure that when kushina said 'find a girl like me', she meant 'find a girl like me', I realise it's a pretty difficult concept to grasp.


----------



## ch1p (May 22, 2014)

> What? NaruHina hardly bares any mutual chemistry. Mutual chemistry requires having a familiarity and closeness to one another that exceeds anything Naruto and Hinata have collectively experienced together. Naruto barely knows anything about Hinata, and compared to Sakura, Hinata knows nothing of the hardships and struggles that Naruto has endured both as a jinchuuriki as well as a shinobi. Hinata has never given Naruto the comfort and companionship in the way that Sakura has. Hinata has never once thought about Naruto's on-going pursuit to rescue Sasuke from the darkness. Hinata has barely (if ever) spent the necessary time with Naruto to get to know him on any personal level. Hinata has barely (if ever) thought about Naruto's well being and best interests outside of her own self-loathing and insecurities. Hinata has never once reflected upon Naruto's dreams to become hokage. Sakura, on the other hand, has.
> 
> Compared to NaruSaku, NaruHina harbors no mutual chemistry at all.





Hinata has been by Naruto's side since she was a child, watching him. Since she has noticed how hard he has worked for other people's acknowledgement, it's safe to say she'd know what he likes and what dislikes with reasonable accuracy, but nothing that wouldn't be easily solved by going on a date to know each other.

Hinata doesn't need to keep Naruto in line, as she's not his mother. However, she is quite capable to reign him when it matters, as chapter 615 demonstrated. She knows his insecuritoes well, as he told her them just before he went to fight Neji and she witnessed (along with everyone else) the carroussel of regrets from Naruto's thoughts.

Hinata doesn't need to fulfill all important roles in Naruto's life nor does she need to fullfill them all better than other people either. They don't live for each other. A romantic relationship isn't a checklist.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Oh, please go ahead. Please humor me on how Hinata knows Naruto, his likes, dislikes, how he's kept in line, insecurities. And please use canon evidence that makes sense in context, not  deluded fanfiction fantasies that I see constantly being used in this thread.
> 
> I've seen it all, but here's hoping you come up with something more original. Doubtful, but one can dream.



See above.



sapikcan said:


> So Kakashi thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke.
> Sai thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke.
> Naruto thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke.
> Karin thinks that Sakura loves Sasuke.
> ...



Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are again and again confirmed, inside and outside the manga including by the author in interviews, but it's somehow up to discussion. However, Naruto's feelings, who have never been stated outright by himself, are somehow more legit. Lol NaruSaku.



sapikcan said:


> I used to think that "lookin for a girl like your mother" is a stupid idea but, dude, "looking for a girl like your father"?????
> 
> This could be the most stupid idea i've ever heard my entire life by far.
> 
> ...



I agree. I'd advise not to fall into the same mistakes as the NaruSaku relationship. This whole 'bang your mommy / daddy' is creepy. And doesn't make in sense either. I'm sure that when Kushina said 'find a girl like me' isn't 'find someone who will hit you when you're being stupid'. Why would she want that? Plus, a friend can do that just fine. Someone who loves him is not something that a vanilla friend can do however.



Mr Horrible said:


> Engaging in tricky little word games to differentiate Naruto and Sakura's feelings doesn't accomplish much other than a cute little argument. Naruto implicitly confirmed his feelings to sai and since then we have still gotten snippets of naruto's affection.



The point is not a tricky litle word game. The point is Naruto's feelings are not taken seriously by the narrative, they're a joke 90% of the time. When they're not, he's accepting SasuSaku in some form. His love being something important to his character is clearly not what the manga choses to highlight about him.



> Sakura has actually shown a better understanding of Naruto and his capabilities than Hinata has.



That's quite irrelevant. People don't get together romantically because they understand each other better than anyone else.



> Interesting how you don't find Hinata stalking Naruto for years or Sakura loving an abusive asshole creepy, just NS .



I don't think NS is abusive. In fact, I made a post a few pages back saying that Naruto's perversion is supposed to be funny.



> I'm also pretty sure that when kushina said 'find a girl like me', she meant 'find a girl like me', I realise it's a pretty difficult concept to grasp.



If that's the case, she's advocating for Naruto to marry himself or marry Karin as well. Uncanny.


----------



## Dokiz1 (May 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> > Actually, Sai said 'like'. And I don't disagree. I could make an equivalent list with Naruto -> Kakashi or... Sakura -> Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mr Horrible (May 22, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The point is not a tricky litle word game. The point is Naruto's feelings are not taken seriously by the narrative, they're a joke 90% of the time. When they're not, he's accepting SasuSaku in some form. His love being something important to his character is clearly not what the manga choses to highlight about him.



Ah yes, because Naruto doesn't thinking about Sakura every moment of the day, he doesn't love her as much . There has been plenty of serious drama in the Naruto->Sakura subplot.



> That's quite irrelevant. People don't get together romantically because they understand each other better than anyone else.



/shrug, it's both a good place to start and another instance of NS beating out NH.



> I don't think NS is abusive. In fact, I made a post a few pages back saying that Naruto's perversion is supposed to be funny.



Hilarious.



> If that's the case, she's advocating for Naruto to marry himself or marry Karin as well. Uncanny.



Do you have to work on being this obtuse or does it just come naturally?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (May 22, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> That being said, it doesn't take an idiot to realize that if Kishimoto stopped caring about SS, he would have stopped mentioning it. Same goes for NH.
> 
> As for NS, the same applies as well. But the fact remains, he's giving negative context to one, and the other two are receiving POSITIVE;


SS is being portrayed in a positive context? SS hasn't received positive context since early part 1 and barely even then. 

-Sakura's confession has her saying Sasuke never talks to her and she thinks that he hates her -Sasuke tries to kill her in cold blood multiple times
-Love letter fodder nin saying to Sakura that anyone that she could love must be a great person causing Sakura to look downcast with an evil Sasuke in the background
-Sakura's outright distrust of Sasuke
-Sasuke's blatant lack of regard for Sakura's well being even on the level of a comrade
-Depending on proper translation, Kakashi's observations as a death blow

SS is only portrayed positively if positive context is only defined as Sakura's feelings for him still existing in some manner, even if said feelings for him are being portrayed in a negative context/in a way that should lead people to believe that they are fading and Sasuke's blatant lack of feelings are disregarded.

As for NH, it really lies outside the bounds of negative moments due to a lack of interaction between the two characters and it not being surrounded by team 7 love triangle drama. Its problem is not having too many negative interactions as is its lack of general interaction.



> Whilst NS- Sakura head butting him and non-verbally rejecting his asspull.


Sakura's reaction there is supposed to be NS being portrayed negatively in this arc in comparison to SS and NH? A reaction that could have absolutely nothing to do with her rejecting his feelings and instead being embarrassed/annoyed at Naruto taking liberties with the status of their relationship in front of his dad who happens to be a revered Hokage?  Their bond has been portrayed positively on numerous occasions in this arc, they don't have to be explicitly romantic for them to be positive development if they do get together at the end, otherwise numerous NH moments can be entirely discounted. Though NH does seem to have the benefit to proclaim any interaction Hinata has with Naruto a moment due to her feelings, yet not have the same apply to Naruto in regards to Sakura. They also tend to claim any time Hinata merely mentions his name as a moment, as can be seen from their reaction to the latest chapter.


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## BeBreezy (May 22, 2014)

Mr Horrible said:


> Because it's pretty clear that Sakura also cares for Sasuke as an ex-team mate as well?



She can do both simultaneously: she can care for Sasuke because of their friendship (or ex friendship...) and care for Sasuke because she loves him. One does not nullify the other.





> I said Sakura thinking back to the 12 year old Sasuke that she loved was a fantasy, as it's delusional to think Sasuke will ever return to being that person.




And I said that what you have described, thinking back to who someone used to be, is not a fantas but is a memory. There is a difference. I also argued that Sakura (nor Naruto) is pining for Sasuke to return to his 12 year old self. She merely wants to save him from darkness, because she believes in the Sasuke who cherished and cared for his friends.


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## TyranntX (May 23, 2014)

Hand holding dose NOT justify an end game couple. Thats like saying you'll die early just because you work at a cemetary. It shows support, but not romance. Heck the only reacon why the are holding hands is so that Hinata could get Kurama chakra, oall because she ASKED for some. Naruto gave some to the others too, and they didn't even ask for any! case in point? Hinata is F$#&ING greedy. lol jk, but seriously  Hand holding dose not = NH. that just doesn't make any sense.


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## Drunkenwhale (May 23, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Hinata has been by Naruto's side since she was a child, watching him. Since she has noticed how hard he has worked for other people's acknowledgement, it's safe to say she'd know what he likes and what dislikes with reasonable accuracy, but nothing that wouldn't be easily solved by going on a date to know each other.
> 
> Hinata doesn't need to keep Naruto in line, as she's not his mother. However, she is quite capable to reign him when it matters, as chapter 615 demonstrated. She knows his insecuritoes well, as he told her them just before he went to fight Neji and she witnessed (along with everyone else) the carroussel of regrets from Naruto's thoughts.
> 
> Hinata doesn't need to fulfill all important roles in Naruto's life nor does she need to fullfill them all better than other people either. *They don't live for each other.* A romantic relationship isn't a checklist.





@Bold: Isn't that what a relationship supposed to be about? Two people living their lives for each other?



I don't think a simple volume cover is really going to establish all of those issues that was asked by Kakugo either.

Her speeches really never hit to a point of how much she knows of him, or how well she's aware of his struggles or how lonely he was or his dreams - they were all about how much he's effected _her_, how he's inadvertently helped her grow stronger and in retrospect how he helped everyone around him instead of any sort of establishment of a special intimate bond between Naruto and Hinata.

This leads him into stating that because of all of that, they've (always) supported him instead of him just going at it all by himself protecting everyone. (But then kinda take a look where that got them - Spending half the war standing around when there were things they could have attempted to do, however insignificant... On top of the latest chapter...)

However, none of that hinted at Hinata understanding Naruto for who he is as a person instead of being this ultimate role model she developed feelings for.


Whereas, well... Kakugo pretty much nailed it on the head - that Naruto and Sakura have this deeper sense of understanding between themselves - and it's actually referenced in the manga right in front of us.


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## ch1p (May 23, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> Yeah except it was different for Sakura, because Naruto's smile is what made Sai notice that he is in love with Sakura and made him confessing Naruto's love to her for him



The point is that Naruto smiling at people is not indicative of his romantic feelings. The fact that the conversation started there is quite irrelevant.



> Sure, you wouldve had a point if he was in love with himself or Karin, But Sakura is the girl that hes in love with and has been compared to Kushina by Minato himself, the guy who knows the most about Kushina.



The point is that there is plenty of 'a girl like his mother' means.



Mr Horrible said:


> Ah yes, because Naruto doesn't thinking about Sakura every moment of the day, he doesn't love her as much . There has been plenty of serious drama in the Naruto->Sakura subplot.



Once more, the point is not 'thinking about Sakura every moment of the day' nor that NaruSaku doesn't have 'serious drama'. The point is that Naruto thinks of Sakura in comic relief the majority of the time. The point is that, the rest of the cases is him accepting SS as something more.



> /shrug, it's both a good place to start and another instance of NS beating out NH.



Naruto and Sakura understand each other in some ways, Naruto and Hinata understand each other in other ways. If you think that is indicative of one understanding the other more or less then you're sadly mistaken.



> Hilarious.



I'd say so. TBH its no longer my cup of tea.



> Do you have to work on being this obtuse or does it just come naturally?



The point is that there is plenty of 'a girl like his mother' means.



TyranntX said:


> Hand holding dose NOT justify an end game couple.



This is true.



> Thats like saying you'll die early just because you work at a cemetary.



IDK what this analogy is about TBH. 



> It shows support, but not romance.



The original poster was saying that 'compared to NaruSaku, NaruHina harbors no mutual chemistry at all'. That isn't true. The handhold has been the most mutual chemistry moment of all (the other only that comes close would be the FoD hug). While NaruSaku has a few moments that could be equaled, they either don't have physical contact (PoaLT, Sound Reunion end) or they're not mutual (469 hug, the fake confession, CPR). I'm not saying Naruto cares any less for Sakura than Hinata, but the way Kishi choses to portray this is very different in feeling.



> Heck the only reaction why the are holding hands is so that Hinata could get Kurama chakra, oall because she ASKED for some. Naruto gave some to the others too, and they didn't even ask for any! case in point? Hinata is F$#&ING greedy. lol jk, but seriously  Hand holding dose not = NH. that just doesn't make any sense.



Stop. It made volume cover, she thought his hand made it feel safe and he was smiling at her while squeezing her hand. It's clearly more significant than 'he just gave her chakra'. If you want to advocate its not telling of romantic feelings, I won't stop you nor will I counter you. Now saying it wasn't important outside of chakra transfer? I apologise for the bluntness but that's ridiculous.



Drunkenwhale said:


> @Bold: Isn't that what a relationship supposed to be about? Two people living their lives for each other?



No. There are more things in life than each other and one person cannot fulfill all roles towards another. A relationship, whatever it is, should not be based on co-dependency.



> I don't think a simple volume cover is really going to establish all of those issues that was asked by Kakugo either.



The volume cover is representative of a mutual chemistry moment that NaruSaku never had.



> Her speeches really never hit to a point of how much she knows of him, or how well she's aware of his struggles or how lonely he was or his dreams - they were all about how much he's effected _her_, how he's inadvertently helped her grow stronger and in retrospect how he helped everyone around him instead of any sort of establishment of a special intimate bond between Naruto and Hinata.



Hinata knew how hard Naruto tried to be acknowledged. She even says at one point that she has always watched him. That is the definition of knowing who he is.

Regarding Naruto's growth, Naruto said that Hinata has been by his side supporting him. So he is giving her acknowledging of having a hand on his growth as an individual.

The rest is repeating these arguments and some petty baiting, so I'll just ignore it.


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## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Drunkenwhale said:


> Her speeches really never hit to a point of how much she knows of him, or how well she's aware of his struggles or how lonely he was or his dreams - they were all about how much he's effected her, how he's inadvertently helped her grow stronger and in retrospect how he helped everyone around him instead of any sort of establishment of a special intimate bond between Naruto and Hinata.



...Naruto vs Kiba? Chuunin Exams? 



> @Bold: Isn't that what a relationship supposed to be about? Two people living their lives for each other?



No, not necessarily. That actually sounds pretty unhealthy. Why can't people live their own lives? If you said "with" each other, I'd understand.


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## Eternity (May 23, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Oh, please go ahead. Please humor me on how Hinata knows Naruto, his likes, dislikes, how he's kept in line, insecurities. And please use canon evidence that makes sense in context, not  deluded fanfiction fantasies that I see constantly being used in this thread.
> 
> I've seen it all, but here's hoping you come up with something more original. Doubtful, but one can dream.



Fine, if I have the time tomorrow, ill put up a good post about how Hinata knows Naruto, but before I do that, I want to adress what you said. 

*"his likes"*

Do you mean all the things he likes to do?  This takes communication, time and familarity, all of which they have yet to have a lot of. _But I will try my best to find something_, if you keep in mind that this isn't paramount to how well she knows Naruto. Kushina knew practically nothing about Minato when she fell in love with him after he saved her.
All the smaller details comes with time together.

PS: Keep in mind that I use "how well she knows Naruto", and not "how well she knows _about _Naruto", which is to know _about_ all the little things. Knowing someone is not just about knowing about someone. 

*"dislikes" *

See above.

*"how he's kept in line"*

This is not paramount to a relationship. I might even go as far as to say that this is destructive to a relationship. But ill humor you. I will show this as well.

*"Insecurities" *

This one will be easy. When I have the time, I can show you two very good examples.

*"And please use canon evidence that makes sense in context, not  deluded  fanfiction fantasies that I see constantly being used in this thread."*

Ditto.

*"I've seen it all, but here's hoping you come up with something more original. Doubtful, but one can dream."*

Ditto.


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## Drunkenwhale (May 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> ...Naruto vs Kiba? Chuunin Exams?




But has any of that really showed how much she knows about his issues and his life? Most of it shows us how she admires him and has confidence in him, but not if she knows him as a person.



> No, not necessarily. That actually sounds pretty unhealthy. Why can't people live their own lives? If you said "with" each other, I'd understand.




That's essentially what I'm saying. Living for each other, with each other.

NaruHina doesn't do that - It's all what Hinata wants, and she's not the main character.


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## ch1p (May 23, 2014)

Drunkenwhale said:


> But has any of that really showed how much she knows about his issues and his life? Most of it shows us how she admires him and has confidence in him, but not if she knows him as a person.



Of course it does. Hinata knows how hard Naruto trained to be acknowledged, how much of a loser he was because he really couldn't get anywhere anyway, how much he never gave up, she knows that his words and beliefs about protecting his comrades and never giving up. What else do you want her to know about him? His boxers colour portofolio?



> That's essentially what I'm saying. Living for each other, with each other. NaruHina doesn't do that - It's all what Hinata wants.



Then it's fine with Naruto and Hinata, he said that she has been by his side supporting him.



> she's not the main character.


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## Michael Senpai (May 23, 2014)

> NaruHina doesn't do that - It's all what Hinata wants, and she's not the main character.



LOL 
Did you really? 
I seriously thought this was already made clear
*Being a main character has ALMOST NOTHING to do with how a ship will turn out.*
It isn't always what the main character wants or needs.


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## Dokiz1 (May 23, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The point is that Naruto smiling at people is not indicative of his romantic feelings. The fact that the conversation started there is quite irrelevant.



You're irrelevant. Brushing off #mangafacts won't make your arguments more valid. 

It doesn't matter what you say, according to the manga, his smiles do indicate his romantic feelings when it comes to Sakura. #mangafacts

Also, its because he's _always_ smiling at Sakura when she's around him that made Sai notice he had feelings for her. Which Naruto doesn't do to other people, apparently. #mangafacts




> The point is that there is plenty of 'a girl like his mother' means.



lmaoo, you wish. There's only one meaning to that and Sakura is the closest to what Kushina meant, deal with it.

She certainly doesn't mean to marry Karin's chakra, or ending up with one of his clones. Get real.


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## ch1p (May 23, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> You're irrelevant.







> Brushing off #mangafacts won't make your arguments more valid. It doesn't matter what you say, according to the manga, his smiles do indicate his romantic feelings when it comes to Sakura. #mangafacts



I'm not brushing off facts. I'm saying that what the conversation started with or not is quite irrelevant. Naruto smiles for a lot of people, therefore Sai's statement is either generic and only a topic started, or Naruto's in love with everyone. His shit eating grin is legendary.



> Also, its because he's _always_ smiling at Sakura when she's around him that made Sai notice he had feelings for her. Which Naruto doesn't do to other people, apparently. #mangafacts







> lmaoo, you wish. There's only one meaning to that and Sakura is the closest to what Kushina meant, deal with it. She certainly doesn't mean to marry Karin's chakra, or ending up with one of his clones. Get real.



There is no difference about mocking Naruto for chosing a bride for his chakra or Naruto chosing a bride because she hits him when he's doing something stupid. You really think that's the advice a mother would give to his child? Find a girl that will hit you over the head when you're being stupid? What a bad fanfic.


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## Mr Horrible (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL
> Did you really?
> I seriously thought this was already made clear
> *Being a main character has ALMOST NOTHING to do with how a ship will turn out.*
> It isn't always what the main character wants or needs.



Don't read many shounen do you?

It is really, really rare for a protagonist to "lose" if their unrequited love is persistent.


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## Chabal (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL
> Did you really?
> I seriously thought this was already made clear
> *Being a main character has ALMOST NOTHING to do with how a ship will turn out.*
> It isn't always what the main character wants or needs.



Do you have any example of the contrary? Please don't cite Dragonball as it's often the case because the two narratives have very little in common romance wise. For starters Goku was never interested in Bulma and was almost entirely asexual. Romance wasn't focused on and Toriyama was just using it as a plot device to create new generations and lengthen the story. In Naruto it's been a rather significant part of the narrative, mostly for drama's sake but also as something fleshing out characterization (or in some case entirely defining it).

I'm not saying "Naruto is the main character so he'll get what he wants" is a good argument btw, I'm just saying it's not very wise to almost entirely disregard his desires, his feelings and his thoughts and handwave them as "jokes" and "comic relief" for the sake of a preferred pairing. Always keep in mind as the titular character he embodies most of the narrative's themes and acts both as a role model and someone to identify with for the target audience of the manga, which are 8th grade Japanese boys.


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

"Goku"? 

"Asexual"?


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## Chabal (May 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> "Goku"?
> 
> "Asexual"?



Yes? There's no scene of Goku trying to peep at Bulma in the bath, or thinking he wanted a girl to like him, or showing any sort of interest in the opposite sex. He thought it was perfectly normal to get naked in front of Bulma and sleep with her because he did the same with his grandpa (lol now that sounds messed up) and he thought marriage was some kind of food. 

Goku is typically the kind of shonen hero who's more interested in fighting and food than in girls. Luffy is the same. Naruto is not.


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

...asexual, though?


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL
> Did you really?
> I seriously thought this was already made clear
> *Being a main character has ALMOST NOTHING to do with how a ship will turn out.*
> It isn't always what the main character wants or needs.



Naruto is practically jesus incarnate and has practically every ninja in the world bowing down and giving him a metaphorical blowjob. 

Not always about the main characters wants or needs? lol, this last arc should've torpedoed that argument to the bottom of the ocean. 

He's getting everything he wants, Hokage, the respect, power, and, of course, the girl. Considering the fact that Sakura supports HIS bid for Hokage and Not Sasuke who's clearly intended to run for the chance, I think it's pretty clear where things are headed. You really think Sasuke in a million years would let the girl that he's in a relationship with or interested in would let said girl choose his "best friend" in his bid to become Hokage or whatever his current dream is?

Get fucking real.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Naruto is practically jesus incarnate and has practically every ninja in the world bowing down and giving him a metaphorical blowjob.
> 
> Not always about the main characters wants or needs? lol, this last arc should've torpedoed that argument to the bottom of the ocean.
> 
> ...



I would like to take this moment to ask you:

There are statistically more people that ship NH, so if NS doesn not happen like you think it will, will you accept it, or will you call it bad writing, and at the same time call the majority of shippers stupid and delutional?

You can choose not to answer this, but I am just curious about this?

I would also like to tell you that I am provoked by how you are arguing, so I apologize if that colors how I reply to you. 

Now, onto your arguments:


> Naruto is practically jesus incarnate and has practically every ninja in  the world bowing down and giving him a metaphorical blowjob.



Fallacy - Special Pleading

What it is:  An argument that places the position above and beyond the  means to analyze it. 

Example:  
_Hamton_: ?All evidence points to the crystal skulls being  mundane and made in Europe in the 1800s? 
_Plucky _?Well, the crystal skulls are magic.  We can?t attempt to examine  them with science or anything like that.  They?re not subject to it.?  This is a particularly frustrating fallacy as it shuts down the  conversation.  Once invoked, the argument is effectively over, and  nothing has been determined.  Keep an eye out for it in religious texts,  ghost and UFO writings, and new age health claims.  The last in  particular, as they are actively trying to separate you from your money.     *If someone places their argument beyond refute, it may be because the  argument can?t stand otherwise.*



> Not always about the main characters wants or needs? lol, this last arc  should've torpedoed that argument to the bottom of the ocean.
> 
> He's getting everything he wants, Hokage, the respect, power, and, of course, the girl.



This last arc has the main character lose people, lose a part of himself that he has been with since birth (Kurama), mentally break down, etc. How this last arc shows that Naruto gets everything he wants is beyond me. 

He is still not Hokage, but I agree that will happen. He has the respect, but that was earned. He has the power, but that was struggled for.



> ..and of course, the girl.



Of course. Obviously. Let's just push aside the fact that the other things you said have been his lifelong dream... 

Sure, you might be right. Kishimoto has been adding pairing moments like bunnies reproduce, but he is not focusing on NS. He is focusing on NH, SS _and_ NS.

You believe that anything NH or SS is either for show/tease, or some other reason that is beyond me, and that NS is genuinely romantic by it's very nature. 

I dissagree, and I have given and agreed with more than my share of reasons why.



> Considering the fact that Sakura supports HIS bid for Hokage and Not  Sasuke who's clearly intended to run for the chance, I think it's pretty  clear where things are headed.



What does Sakura's support have to do with romantic interest? That's absurd. Those two things has little to do with each other.


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

I thought Kishimoto blatantly said he wanted Sasuke to be Hokage.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I thought Kishimoto blatantly said he wanted Sasuke to be Hokage.



No..when did he do that? Do you mean that Sasuke said he wanted to be Hokage. That's not Kishi saying he wanted it. I mean even Kiba said he wanted to be Hokage. 

So I am unsure why you said that.  Care to elaborate on your post?


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

I wasn't there, so I wouldn't have been able to validate this, but I prefer to think the ones who put out this news knew how to interpret a basic Japanese sentence. Else we've been trolled.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I wasn't there, so I wouldn't have been able to validate this, but I prefer to think the ones who put out this news knew how to interpret a basic Japanese sentence. Else we've been trolled.



I believe the front page doesn't allow Kishi's cryptic interviews as proof in this debate. So even if it was true, which I doubt (but I am ok with it if that's what Kishi does), it can't be used here.

We have to wait and see it happen in the manga before it's brought up here.


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

Well, I singled that part out. It's irrelevant. But I was just wondering if the interpretation had been invalidated.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Not sure. Haven't seen it before.


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## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

If it were true, that'd be nice. 

But, my fault, I didn't mean to derail the thread.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

It's fine. 

Now, on topic:

Aee we allowed to post about the newest chapter starting Monday, or can we do it before that?


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## emachina (May 24, 2014)

Chabal said:


> Do you have any example of the contrary? Please don't cite Dragonball as it's often the case because the two narratives have very little in common romance wise. For starters Goku was never interested in Bulma and was almost entirely asexual. Romance wasn't focused on and Toriyama was just using it as a plot device to create new generations and lengthen the story. In Naruto it's been a rather significant part of the narrative, mostly for drama's sake but also as something fleshing out characterization (or in some case entirely defining it).
> 
> I'm not saying "Naruto is the main character so he'll get what he wants" is a good argument btw, I'm just saying it's not very wise to almost entirely disregard his desires, his feelings and his thoughts and handwave them as "jokes" and "comic relief" for the sake of a preferred pairing. Always keep in mind as the titular character he embodies most of the narrative's themes and acts both as a role model and someone to identify with for the target audience of the manga, which are 8th grade Japanese boys.



Well, even if you say don't throw Dragonball in I am because it is an example. Jubei from Jubei Ninpuncho the movie and series, his love life was made of tragedy. If I remember correctly, Jin from Samurai Champloo didn't have his love life turn out how he wanted. Spike from Cowboy Bebop. Inuyahsa also, he wanted Kikyo, Kagome was always his second choice. I know there are more, but I'm under the weather, tired, and my Google fu is weak this morning.

And why is it we have to consider Naruto's feelings but not Sakura's? Every time its been hinted at that she is Naruto's girlfriend, she get unbelievably pissed about it. She 'a confessed her love for Sasuke, not Naruto.


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## Chabal (May 24, 2014)

emachina said:


> Well, even if you say don't throw Dragonball in I am because it is an example. Jubei from Jubei Ninpuncho the movie and series, his love life was made of tragedy. If I remember correctly, Jin from Samurai Champloo didn't have his love life turn out how he wanted. Spike from Cowboy Bebop. Inuyahsa also, he wanted Kikyo, Kagome was always his second choice. I know there are more, but I'm under the weather, tired, and my Google fu is weak this morning.



Dragonball isn't an example for reasons I've already mentioned and most of your other examples weren't shonen manga but more adult tv series and movies that tend to be darker in tone and less idealistic.




> And why is it we have to consider Naruto's feelings but not Sakura's? Every time its been hinted at that she is Naruto's girlfriend, she get unbelievably pissed about it. She 'a confessed her love for Sasuke, not Naruto.



I've already said why Naruto's feelings should be considered in priority. Girls who might identify with Sakura and empathize with her quest to become Sasuke's girlfriend aren't the manga's target audience. As I'm only stating a fact here (that's the point of the separation between shonen and shojo demographics) please do not cry about sexism as an answer to this argument, thanks in advance.

Also I'm fine with considering Sakura's feelings but if you do so you should also consider how many times Sasuke has made her miserable and Naruto cheered her up and restored her hope in comparison. Far from being a slight against NS and a plus for SS, it's actually quite the contrary.


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Chabal said:


> Dragonball isn't an example for reasons I've already mentioned and most of your other examples weren't shonen manga but more adult tv series and movies that tend to be darker in tone and less idealistic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Using other mangas of the same genre as en example of how this manga should or seem to be is not allowed.

From the front page:



			
				Kenny-boi said:
			
		

> ? Do not insert your own morals ​​or personal experiences to argue a  point outside of the manga's context. *The Naruto manga is the only thing  that matters. Nothing else.*


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## Kage (May 24, 2014)

The only reason for aversion to the concept of 'the hero gets what he wants' is not being near as confident in Naruto's supposed lack of romantic interest in Sakura as one would have others believe.

Why does it matter that Naruto gets what he wants if all signs point to Hinata anyway? Or is this just a knee jerk reaction to considering a guys feelings in a debate that largely treats them like an afterthought?(e.g. "Romantically ambigious" Sasuke)


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2014)

I KNOW IT'S BEEN LIKE 700 CHAPTERS BUT SASUKE WILL COME AROUND, KAGE!

Oh, Sakura or Hinata changing their feelings? Don't be silly Kage, it's too late for that!


----------



## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I KNOW IT'S BEEN LIKE 700 CHAPTERS BUT SASUKE WILL COME AROUND, KAGE!
> 
> Oh, Sakura or Hinata changing their feelings? Don't be silly Kage, it's too late for that!



Well, he is kinda coming around now adays, isn't he? With all the "not killing allies" and "helping Konoha" and stuff. Just putting that out there. 

Almost as if he is chainging. Progressing as a character.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2014)

That is a really pathetic measure for "coming around". I mean he's acting like a decent human being for once? OBVIOUSLY IT MEANS ROMANCE! That's kinda the point I was getting at though, Sasuke is supposed to and is acceptable to change "any minute now", despite having zero indication of interest in romance; but it's too late for these characters who don't have such baggage to change their minds? That kind of logic just doesn't add up.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 24, 2014)

Kage said:


> The only reason for aversion to the concept of 'the hero gets what he wants' is not being near as confident in Naruto's supposed lack of romantic interest in Sakura as one would have others believe.
> 
> Why does it matter that Naruto gets what he wants if all signs point to Hinata anyway? Or is this just a knee jerk reaction to considering a guys feelings in a debate that largely treats them like an afterthought?(e.g. "Romantically ambigious" Sasuke)



All signs point to Hinata? 

 Up until the War Arc, you had _no_ leg to stand on other than Sakura's fake confession. Then that was torpedoed the moment Naruto called Sakura his girlfriend and promptly went back to not giving a shit about Hinata.

Let's be real, if the same thing happen to your ships (Hinata giving Nardo CPR, Him calling her his girlfriend, etc) you'd all be preaching to the choir. But since it's not for the team you play it "doesn't count" or "He was just joking!"

Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying through their teeth.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> All signs point to Hinata?
> 
> Up until the War Arc, you had _no_ leg to stand on other than Sakura's fake confession. Then that was torpedoed the moment Naruto called Sakura his girlfriend and promptly went back to not giving a shit about Hinata.



hey, hey...she's not a naruhina fan


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is a really pathetic measure for "coming around". I mean he's acting like a decent human being for once? OBVIOUSLY IT MEANS ROMANCE! That's kinda the point I was getting at though, Sasuke is supposed to and is acceptable to change "any minute now", despite having zero indication of interest in romance; but it's too late for these characters who don't have such baggage to change their minds? That kind of logic just doesn't add up.




You missunderstand our stance. (Or at least mine.)

Becoming a decent human doesn't mean ROMANCE. Of course not.

I don't even think SS is sure to happen. The idea of SS rests on Sakura's feelings and actions, and Sasuke's redemption. If Sakura doesn't give up on Sasuke, and Sasuke is redeemed and returns to Konoha, the stage is set for something to happen. But at this point, Sasuke has other goals, so he could have feelings for Sakura and still act the way he does, because that's kind of how is personality is, and his other goals  are too important to allow feelings to ruin them.

Now your last part is somehting I need to adress:



> but it's too late for these characters who don't have such baggage to  change their minds? That kind of logic just doesn't add up.



Course it's not too late. 

Hinata can change her mind (even though every single interaction between Naruto and Hinata has been leading them closer, and only strenghtened her resolve)

Sakura can change her mind (and she have every right  to do so too, yet she still cares so much)

And Naruto can change his mind (yes, even the titular character can change his mind)

But even if they can, will they? That's really what your argument boils down to. Who will change their mind? Or am I wrong?


----------



## TRN (May 24, 2014)

I haven't been keeping up with the NaruSaku shipper, but did there defence went from Sasuke is a Evil Killer (Never caring for anyone but naruto)  to he just helping but he never have human  emotions.



I want to know there mindset, because it flip flop depending on the chapter


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## Eternity (May 24, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> All signs point to Hinata?
> 
> Up until the War Arc, you had _no_ leg to stand on other than Sakura's fake confession.



If you visit the NH fanclub, you will see the legs we walk on in the poll at the top. The idea of NH had many legs to stand on, and still have.

(If you didn't understand, the poll in the NH FC shows moments between Naruto and Hinata, and which chapter it happened.)

And why are you bringing up Sakura's face confession? That's not a leg we stood on, that's a leg we think broke on the NS tabel. 




> Then that was torpedoed the moment Naruto called Sakura his girlfriend and promptly went back to not giving a shit about Hinata.



You forgot to mention the handholding a few chapters prior to this girlfriend comment. That's also a moment we believe supports the idea of NH.

But why are you saying "not giving a shit about Hinata"? He was fighting an enemy. One tends to want to focus in such a predicament..
And then his life was pretty much sapped out of him, leaving him unable to do anything. Then he was rushed off far away from her.





> Let's be real, if the same thing happen to your ships (Hinata giving Nardo CPR, Him calling her his girlfriend, etc) you'd all be preaching to the choir. But since it's not for the team you play it "doesn't count" or "He was just joking!"



Personally, no. I would not say CPR between Naruto and Hinata would count as a moment. The girlfriend comment was preceeded by Saukra physically hurting him. But sure, we can call that a pairing moment between Sakura and Naruto. Naruto called Sakura his girlfriend. Sort of. Cause, you know, he said "sort of"

But then again, if Naruto had said Hinata was his girlfriend, the entire scene would have been different, don't you think? If the same thing happened to our ship, Hinata would have blushed. Then he probably would have asked her if she was ok. And then the war would be back in focus. And if that was indeed the case, what would you say about the moment? If everything in the manga was the same, and you still supported NS? (Not retorical, I would like to hera your answer on  this)





> Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying through their teeth.



Am I supposed to just take your word for that? Could you build a case as to why claming otherwise is lying through our teeth?


----------



## Chabal (May 24, 2014)

TRN said:


> I haven't been keeping up with the NaruSaku shipper, but did there defence went from Sasuke is a Evil Killer (Never caring for anyone but naruto)  to he just helping but he never have human  emotions.



I'm not sure why "the NaruSaku shipper" is the one who's supposed to be on the defensive here. What is there to defend against? Are you implying NS is doing damage control because the manga has countless scenes showing Sasuke cares about Sakura, possibly in a romantic light?

The latest chapter has _Sakura herself_ saying Sasuke doesn't care about her. It seems to me this is a pretty clear cut case. Now did he care about her in the past? Yes, roughly 500 chapters ago, like he cared for a character like Karin during the fight against Killer Bee. Will he care about Sakura again in the future? Yes, once he's redeemed. Did he ever have any romantic interest for Sakura? I don't think so. Will he ever have any romantic interest for Sakura? There's nothing telling me he will.


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## Kage (May 24, 2014)

Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are the only of all parties involved to be called into question (numerous times) and almost constantly portrayed negatively. 


*Spoiler*: _Let's review_ 















It makes the most sense for her feelings to change and progress 

rather than a character who has had zero interest and has, at best, tolerated more than participates in the romantic subplot.

But hey there's always questionable writing to fall back on.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Let's be real, if the same thing happen to your ships (Hinata giving Nardo CPR, Him calling her his girlfriend, etc) you'd all be preaching to the choir. But since it's not for the team you play it "doesn't count" or "He was just joking!"
> 
> Anyone who tries to claim otherwise is lying through their teeth.



????

I'm almost tempted to play the role. _Almost._


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 24, 2014)

Sorry for misinterpreting your post Kage!


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## LesExit (May 24, 2014)

Kage said:


> Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are the only of all parties involved to be called into question (numerous times) and almost constantly portrayed negatively.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Let's review_
> ...


Whether or not Sasuke is going to ever change is what Sakura questions, not whether or not she has feelings for him. 

I feel like people keep misunderstanding that. It's perfectly reasonable for Sakura to not trust Sasuke right now. I would be extremely confused if she did...and for a moment during that first Team 7 reunion moment when Kishi had Sakura all smiling and happy...I thought he was gonna have her forget the past O___O Though thankfully he didn't, and showed Sakura to be wary of Sasuke, as she has been for a very long time in the manga now. Though once again, this does not mean she doesn't still love him. She very well understands the type of person Sasuke might be, but of course she still loves him. She, like Naruto would love for him to change, and would love to know that he cared about her like he was shown to in Part I. Though perhaps he doesn't...or perhaps he does. I'll just have to wait and see for that.

For a long time it has probably always made the most "sense" for Sakura's feelings to just change. Like Sakura said in her "confession" Sasuke's the bad guy, but Naruto you're a hero and you're here for me and a nice person ect. Though feelings don't always work like that. You don't stop loving someone just because it would make more sense if you didn't. We can scold Sakura's romantic choice all we want, but she'll feel what she feels, and maybe in the future her never-ending love and faith will lead her to a relationship with a person she truly loves. Or maybe it'll slowly eat her alive :0 Unless she gets over her feelings, but as of now her feelings are shown to belong solely to Sasuke.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2014)

What the hell are you talking about? Many of those panels explicitly call into question the state of Sakura's feelings toward Sasuke. This seems to be a more consistent thing in this regards than with anyone else. The fact that she questions if he cares or if he's trustworthy is just in addition to that and an extension of that.


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## shurei (May 24, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Whether or not Sasuke is going to ever change is what Sakura questions, not whether or not she has feelings for him.
> 
> I feel like people keep misunderstanding that. It's perfectly reasonable for Sakura to not trust Sasuke right now. I would be extremely confused if she did...and for a moment during that first Team 7 reunion moment when Kishi had Sakura all smiling and happy...I thought he was gonna have her forget the past O___O Though thankfully he didn't, and showed Sakura to be wary of Sasuke, as she has been for a very long time in the manga now. Though once again, this does not mean she doesn't still love him. She very well understands the type of person Sasuke might be, but of course she still loves him. She, like Naruto would love for him to change, and would love to know that he cared about her like he was shown to in Part I. Though perhaps he doesn't...or perhaps he does. I'll just have to wait and see for that.
> 
> For a long time it has probably always made the most "sense" for Sakura's feelings to just change. Like Sakura said in her "confession" Sasuke's the bad guy, but Naruto you're a hero and you're here for me and a nice person ect. Though feelings don't always work like that. You don't stop loving someone just because it would make more sense if you didn't. *We can scold Sakura's romantic choice all we want, but she'll feel what she feels, and maybe in the future her never-ending love and faith will lead her to a relationship with a person she truly loves.* Or maybe it'll slowly eat her alive :0 Unless she gets over her feelings, but as of now her feelings are shown to belong solely to Sasuke.


I don't believe it will be Sasuke.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

Sasuke's in love with Sakura you guys! 

Didn't you see the way he protected her? He even acknowledged her strength by not giving her so much as a glance after she was impaled. He knows how strong his baby girl is unlike that sexist pig Naruto telling her to go back to the kitchen. He ought to knock Naruto into next week for such behavior. Lol


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## LesExit (May 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Many of those panels explicitly call into question the state of Sakura's feelings toward Sasuke. This seems to be a more consistent thing in this regards than with anyone else. The fact that she questions if he cares or if he's trustworthy is just in addition to that and an extension of that.


I explained it pretty simply. Right now what Sakura questions is Sasuke's character. Not her own feelings for him. It's not, "oh Sasuke's truly bad so I no longer love him now". Whether or not Sasuke is a good person or not, does not change the fact that Sakura still loves him. We were blatantly shown this when she tried to kill him, and couldn't. She has not been shown to let go of those feelings. Doesn't matter if we agree with who she loves or not, the fact is she loves Sasuke and not Naruto. 



shurei said:


> I don't believe it will be Sasuke.


As I said, she could get over her feelings. That a-ha moment could still happen.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 24, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Kage was talking about not only Sakura (and she herself has, btw) but other characters and the story itself presenting such a question.


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## LesExit (May 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I'm pretty sure Kage was talking about not only Sakura (and she herself has, btw) but other characters and the story itself presenting such a question.


....a question about Sakura's changing her feelings? I've noticed the question of: is Sasuke going to lose all hope for Sasuke...but not stop loving him. I mean just because she loves him, doesn't mean she's going to be with him. If he turns our to be purely evil, or just not interested in her, then it won't happen :0


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 24, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I explained it pretty simply. Right now what Sakura questions is Sasuke's character. Not her own feelings for him. It's not, "oh Sasuke's truly bad so I no longer love him now". Whether or not Sasuke is a good person or not, does not change the fact that Sakura still loves him. We were blatantly shown this when she tried to kill him, and couldn't. She has not been shown to let go of those feelings. Doesn't matter if we agree with who she loves or not, the fact is she loves Sasuke and not Naruto.
> 
> 
> As I said, she could get over her feelings. That a-ha moment could still happen.



Except Kakashi pretty much said the opposite. If he meant that she was still in love with him or she had grown to love him, he would've used words that would've directly stated that. Not say it's "a different feeling." 

You can't claim Sakura loved Sasuke before Kakashi said that because then what he says would make no logical sense. You can't claim he meant she grew to love him because that would invalidate every argument you had since before the chapter was released.


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## LesExit (May 24, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Except Kakashi pretty much said the opposite. If he meant that she was still in love with him or she had grown to love him, he would've used words that would've directly stated that. Not say it's "a different feeling."
> 
> You can't claim Sakura loved Sasuke before Kakashi said that because then what he says would make no logical sense. You can't claim he meant she grew to love him because that would invalidate every argument you had since before the chapter was released.


I'm not even going to discuss this. I'm just gonna say, I think you're wrong, and leave it at that o__O


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## Kage (May 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I'm pretty sure Kage was talking about not only Sakura (and she herself has, btw) but other characters and the story itself presenting such a question.



Yes.



LesExit said:


> ....a question about Sakura's changing her feelings? I've noticed the question of: is Sasuke going to lose all hope for Sasuke...but not stop loving him. I mean just because she loves him, doesn't mean she's going to be with him. If he turns our to be purely evil, or just not interested in her, then it won't happen :0



The fact is none of the other characters here have had to repeatedly hang their head in shame because their feelings for someone so out of reach (be it because Sasuke is evil or just indifferent) are so problematic.

Sakura already lost all hope and had her faith restored by Naruto (even if she's still wary of Sasuke) She's not going to stop loving him but Kakashi remarked it's probably a different feeling from the kind of love she felt before.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

What a lot of SS and NH fans take for granted is that Sakura is the only female that might have any importance in Sasuke's life. They completely disregard the team he formed on his own and act as if they have less meaning to him than Sakura does. Kishimoto has not presented the two teams as a dichotomy of good and evil but rather as Sasuke's old team and his new team. Sasuke has made connections with his new team just as he did with his old one. Karin loves him and Juugo feels devotion to him.  Suigetsu says he doesn't care but I would say he's attached to Sasuke too in a way.

As it stands right now Sasuke loves neither Taka or Team 7. He's used Taka as tools just as he's using Team 7 as tools right now. Despite that he's shown genuine care for both teams in the past on occasion. How does that prove that one is worth more to him than the other I have to ask?


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## Michael Senpai (May 24, 2014)

Except you're forgetting the fact that the Sage of the Six Paths found him to be good enough to receive an amazing power.
But no no he's totally still using people.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

Isn't it an assumption that the sage gave him power because he was good? Where does it state that? Could he not have given him the power because he is truly Indra's reincarnation and needed to help save the world with Naruto? I think the sage doesn't believe that Sasuke is truly evil but not good either. He has hope that Sasuke and Naruto will be able to find peace with one another.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Except you're forgetting the fact that the Sage of the Six Paths found him to be good enough to receive an amazing power.
> But no no he's totally still using people.



Considering Sasuke's a reincarnation of his more "evil" son, I highly doubt he gave him that power because he thought he was "good.

It was purely for practical reasons.


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## TRN (May 24, 2014)

Kage said:


> Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are the only of all parties involved to be called into question (numerous times) and almost constantly portrayed negatively.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Let's review_
> ...




That the thing, when has kishimoto ever written a character in this manga to do things that make sense.....character development  in this manga are all over the place

NaruSaku I wouldn't put to much faith in ( doing what makes the most sense belief )

But who knows


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## Michael Senpai (May 24, 2014)

He wasn't evil, he was cocky. He didn't know the meaning of hardwork and struggle.

That's why the brothers were different. Sasuke learned that struggle because he tried to become stronger than his brother to avenge his clan.

Stop assuming that Sasuke is some bad guy just because he interferes with your ship. It also doesn't fucking help that the curse mark drove him mad with power.

Point being: The sage is no fool. To assume so is.. well, foolish.
Why would he give power to someone who would turn around and use it to betray others??
It would make no sense to do so.


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## TRN (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> He wasn't evil, he was cocky. He didn't know the meaning of hardwork and struggle.
> 
> That's why the brothers were different. Sasuke learned that struggle because he tried to become stronger than his brother to avenge his clan.
> 
> ...



Pretty much everyone knows that sasuke is good, even if they don't want to accept it.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Point being: The sage is no fool. To assume so is.. well, foolish.
> Why would he give power to someone who would turn around and use it to betray others??
> It would make no sense to do so.



Because Sasuke needs that power to help save the world like I said maybe? I don't know if the sage thinks Sasuke will betray anyone or not but I doubt he thinks Sasuke is "good." 

Anyway he has faith that Naruto and Sasuke will come to an understanding so if he does betray anyone Naruto will be able to bring him back.


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## Plague (May 24, 2014)

In terms of romance, Sasuke seems to be Sakura's priority. Not Naruto. 

That, to me looks like she thinks of Naruto as a back up or Plan B that she can get whenever she wants. Doesn't look fair or healthy to me. 

Then we have Sakura as Naruto's main love interest. But over the course of the war, he has undoubtedly gotten closer to Hinata. 

The fact that he wanted to look cool in front of her kind of shows that he cares about her opinion of him. Something he wouldn't value if he "didn't give a shit" about her like some birds think. 

Just plain being in character, if Hinata asked Naruto out on a date, I'm fairly certain he would say yes. Even if just to give it a try. 

His crush on Sakura is shallow and in all honesty, doesn't look serious at all to me.


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## Kage (May 24, 2014)

Naruto can't be a "plan B" when he won't accept anything other than her genuine feelings. Sakura's failed confession to him should prove that much :/

Naruto does care about what people think of him...it's kind of the reason he wanted them to acknowledge who he is. What's more, confirming he was fine and meaning it wasn't an attempt to 'look cool' in front of Hinata however much Kiba wanted an opportunity to make a jab at him over something. Certainly didn't jump at the chance to brag to his father about this Hyuuga girl he's trying to impress when the subject of girlfriends was brought up.

sharks? would you prefer your opinion sit pretty and not be contested? sort of defeats the point of this thread.


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## shurei (May 24, 2014)

I find it fascinating when Kiba say something, it's taken seriously but if it's Kakashi, Yamato, Sai, Minato, Naruto, Sasuke or even Sakura herself it's not taken into consideration.
Kiba>>  Naruto


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

Plague said:


> In terms of romance, Sasuke seems to be Sakura's priority. Not Naruto.
> 
> That, to me looks like she thinks of Naruto as a back up or Plan B that she can get whenever she wants. Doesn't look fair or healthy to me.
> 
> ...



If we knew Naruto was Sakura's romantic priority the game would already be over. Her romantic stance on Sasuke is questionable.

Where's the evidence that Sakura sees Naruto as a back up?

Naruto has gotten closer to Hinata in what way? Romantically? Not that I can see.

Kiba said Naruto wanted to look cool. Besides Naruto's always tried to look cool in front of everybody. Hinata's not special in that regard.

Naruto might give a date with Hinata a try but would it be romantically inspired?

Naruto's feelings for Sakura are a shallow crush huh? That's why he puts her feelings before his own, puts his own body on the line for her, and looks so hurt when he realizes that she loves Sasuke and not him. Textbook example of shallow. Right.


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## Plague (May 24, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> If we knew Naruto was Sakura's romantic priority the game would already be over. Her romantic stance on Sasuke is questionable.



If she recirpicated his feelings, then yeah, this would be over years ago. 



> Where's the evidence that Sakura sees Naruto as a back up?



She isn't making any effort to getting into a relationship with him any time soon. Especially if Sasuke is still around. That to me is evidence. Truth is she might not even see him as a back up. I'm actually being generous with you. 



> Naruto has gotten closer to Hinata in what way?



Re-read the War arc. 



> Romantically?



Depends on if you hold hands with your friends and gaze into their eyes. Looks romantic to me. 



> Not that I can see.



Sounds like a You problem to me. 



> Kiba said Naruto wanted to look cool. Besides Naruto's always tried to look cool in front of everybody. Hinata's not special in that regard.



I was mostly addressing the birds who think he doesn't care about her at all. Still, the fact that Kiba had to comment on it shows it was there for a reason. Or at least to me, from a writers perspective. 



> Naruto might give a date with Hinata a try but would it be romantically inspired?



Since it hasn't happened, we can only speculate. 

Still, Naruto willingly spending time with Hinata would be a positive sign, regardless of your view on it. 



> Naruto's feelings for Sakura are a shallow crush huh? That's why he puts her feelings before his own, puts his own body on the line for her, and looks so hurt when he realizes that she loves Sasuke and not him. Textbook example of shallow. Right.



If you want to get technical, Naruto's done this for pretty much everyone. Even people he doesn't have much of a bond with. It's just his nature. 

Sakura is his friend and he values her life. She just so happens to be surrounded by danger. What would a friend do? lol

I say the crush is shallow because I haven't seen Naruto look shaken up by the fact that she's always rejecting him. He thinks she's cute, big deal. 



> I suggest you read the manga again without wearing your shipping goggles this time.



Take your own advice.


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## Michael Senpai (May 24, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> If we knew Naruto was Sakura's romantic priority the game would already be over. Her romantic stance on Sasuke is questionable.
> 
> Where's the evidence that Sakura sees Naruto as a back up?
> 
> ...



If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.


----------



## ch1p (May 24, 2014)

Chabal said:


> Dragonball isn't an example for reasons I've already mentioned and most of your other examples weren't shonen manga but more adult tv series and movies that tend to be darker in tone and less idealistic.



Digimon.



Eternity said:


> The idea of SS rests on Sakura's feelings and actions, and Sasuke's redemption. If Sakura doesn't give up on Sasuke, and Sasuke is redeemed and returns to Konoha, the stage is set for something to happen.



I say this every time, but some people "have" short memory, so they never remember it.



LesExit said:


> Whether or not Sasuke is going to ever change is what Sakura questions, not whether or not she has feelings for him. I feel like people keep misunderstanding that.



Yes.



LesExit said:


> I'm not even going to discuss this. I'm just gonna say, I think you're wrong, and leave it at that o__O



He is wrong. The translations by MP / MS were perfectly clear since there's the fact they must match with 540.



Plague said:


> His crush on Sakura is shallow and in all honesty, doesn't look serious at all to me.



I agree. There's a big difference between Naruto's comic relief crush and Sakura's feelings, whose strenght is emphasised over and over again in a way that matters contextually. Naruto's feelings are not on par with Sakura's or Hinata's. They're much less important in the story. His romantic feelings matter very little and rarely move the plot forward.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

Plague said:


> She isn't making any effort to getting into a relationship with him any time soon. Especially if Sasuke is still around. That to me is evidence. Truth is she might not even see him as a back up. I'm actually being generous with you.



Saying she thinks of Naruto as a back up makes her sound worse. 





> Depends on if you hold hands with your friends and gaze into their eyes. Looks romantic to me.



Good for you. I have a difference of opinion. Holding hands is not inherently romantic. Neither is gazing into each other's eyes as you put it. Shouldn't Naruto have at least blushed? It was a gesture of friendship and a look of determination.




> I was mostly addressing the birds who think he doesn't care about her at all. Still, the fact that Kiba had to comment on it shows it was there for a reason. Or at least to me, from a writers perspective.



Or more likely it was just Kiba teasing as he's wont to do. Again did Naruto blush?




> Since it hasn't happened, we can only speculate.
> 
> Still, Naruto willingly spending time with Hinata would be a positive sign, regardless of your view on it.



You're right the scenario is purely hypothetical. The date could also end in disaster.




> If you want to get technical, Naruto's done this for pretty much everyone. Even people he doesn't have much of a bond with. It's just his nature.



Please list a few detailed examples. 



> Sakura is his friend and he values her life. She just so happens to be surrounded by danger. What would a friend do? lol



Him getting beat up by the cloud ninja just to protect her feelings for Sasuke is just being a friend huh?



> I say the crush is shallow because I haven't seen Naruto look shaken up by the fact that she's always rejecting him. He thinks she's cute, big deal.



He hasn't looked shaken up? smh



> Take your own advice.



I already have.


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## Elicit94 (May 24, 2014)

It's sad when Naruto's feelings are looked as shallow despite all evidence pointing to the contrary.


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## BatoKusanagi (May 24, 2014)

shurei said:


> I find it fascinating when Kiba say something, it's taken seriously but if it's Kakashi, Yamato, Sai, Minato, Naruto, Sasuke or even Sakura herself it's not taken into consideration.
> Kiba>>  Naruto


I know right? I mean, except Minato, those people have stated Sakura loves Sasuke and some people _still_ question the fact .
And when Naruto states how little he care about the supposedly romantic PoAL, some still claim that he still does. And when Sai recalls what he told Sakura about Naruto as a mistake, some still use it as evidence of Naruto's "deep love" for Sakura. 
Sai >>>> Naruto


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> I know right? I mean, except Minato, those people have stated Sakura loves Sasuke and some people _still_ question the fact .
> And when Naruto states how little he care about the supposedly romantic PoAL, some still claim that he still does. And when Sai recalls what he told Sakura about Naruto as a mistake, some still use it as evidence of Naruto's "deep love" for Sakura.
> Sai >>>> Naruto



Interesting. Naruto says he doesn't care about the PoAL. Prove it. Sai said Naruto didn't love Sakura. Prove it.

Also Naruto doesn't care about Sakura or the promise huh? That's why he said he cant confess to her because he can't keep it?

Your logic is flawed my friend.


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## Elicit94 (May 24, 2014)

Isn't the actual translation to that part of Sakura's confession where Naruto says it isn't about the promise something like this?



> (Viz translation, )
> 
> Naruto: It just sounds like an excuse. I mean, I get where you're coming from, Sakura.
> 
> ...



I believe he meant that it's not just about the promise, meaning that it was still important to him then.

Also, is this the page where Sai supposedly says that it was a mistake?


*Spoiler*: __ 







He never said that his assumptions about Naruto were a mistake. He's just admitting that he was too hard on Sakura, and for that reason she's been acting irrationally.


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## shurei (May 24, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> I know right? I mean, except Minato, those people have stated Sakura loves Sasuke and some people _still_ question the fact .
> And when Naruto states how little he care about the supposedly romantic PoAL, some still claim that he still does. And when Sai recalls what he told Sakura about Naruto as a mistake, some still use it as evidence of Naruto's "deep love" for Sakura.
> Sai >>>> Naruto


Except, Naruto never said that he didn't care. He said, "This isn't about the promise"   As far as the latter with Sai's recollection, I'm not sure what the heck you're talking about. What mistake?   Sakura has hurt Naruto by relying on him and not doing a damn thing herself for the benefit of saving Sasuke. When left up to Sakura, she condemned him to death without EVER lifting her 'enduring love and faith but without too much faith since she doesn't trust but nevertheless it's grown to a  mature loving ass' to attempt to understand and help him out of the darkness. It's too much effort, killing him was the better option. Even now, what is Sakura doing to save Sasuke from the darkness? What?


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 24, 2014)

shurei said:


> Except, Naruto never said that he didn't care. He said, "This isn't about the promise"   As far as the latter with Sai's recollection, I'm not sure what the heck you're talking about. What mistake?   Sakura has hurt Naruto by relying on him and not doing a damn thing herself for the benefit of saving Sasuke. When left up to Sakura, she condemned him to death without EVER lifting her 'enduring love and faith but without too much faith since she doesn't trust but nevertheless it's grown to a  mature loving ass' to attempt to understand and help him out of the darkness. It's too much effort, killing him was the better option. Even now, what is Sakura doing to save Sasuke from the darkness? What?



and even now what is naruto doing to save Sasuke from darkness ?

Naruto rejected her because nothing, not even Sakura?s feelings is going to stop him. His pursuit of Sasuke is nothing to do with the PoaL at this point. It?s his messiah complex.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 24, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> and even now what is naruto doing to save Sasuke from darkness ?
> 
> Naruto rejected her because nothing, not even Sakura?s feelings is going to stop him. His pursuit of Sasuke is nothing to do with the PoaL at this point. It?s his messiah complex.



At least Naruto has Sasuke's attention. Besides both the sage and Itachi have handed Sasuke's redemption over to Naruto. Sasuke barely acknowledges Sakura's presence.

Naruto rejected Sakura because he knew she wasn't' telling the truth about how she felt about Sasuke. He already indicated the promise holds a different meaning for him. Whether he has a messiah complex or not is irrelevant.


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## Corvida (May 25, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> At least Naruto has Sasuke's attention. Besides both the sage and Itachi have handed Sasuke's redemption over to Naruto. Sasuke barely acknowledges Sakura's presence.
> 
> Naruto rejected Sakura because he knew she wasn't' telling the truth about how she felt about Sasuke. He already indicated the promise holds a different meaning for him. Whether he has a messiah complex or not is irrelevant.



Sure, the sage and Itachi handed Sasuke's redemption to Naruto, however he's not the one who helped Sasuke's redemption, the dead ass hokages did. 


Still doesn't change what i said he rejected cuz nothing will stop him. Bye


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## Michael Senpai (May 25, 2014)

Shurei I'll answer you happily.

If you think back, you'll remember Sakura putting Sasuke on Naruto.
"Please bring Sasuke back! I'm begging you!"
Meanwhile, she focused on bettering herself, so if he ever came back, she would show him that she's not useless (and if you pay attention, she often feels this way in the manga. Always behind them? Yea.)

And now that he's back, there's nothing really to focus on except winning the war.

Also, when debating, * The burden of proof is on you when you're trying to argue a point.*
That's just debating 101 guys .-.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> He is wrong. The translations by MP / MS were perfectly clear since there's the fact they must match with 540.


I know they're wrong. Though I just thought if they still didn't understand that, it would go nowhere discussing it.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 25, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I know they're wrong. Though I just thought if they still didn't understand that, it would go nowhere discussing it.



Your side has always argued that Sakura has always loved Sasuke, but when Kakashi says something different you all change your tune saying it was Crush---->Love. 





> There's a big difference between Naruto's comic relief crush and Sakura's feelings, whose strenght is emphasised over and over again in a way that matters contextually. Naruto's feelings are not on par with Sakura's or Hinata's. They're much less important in the story. His romantic feelings matter very little and rarely move the plot forward.



What in the actual FUCK?

Not on par? You do realize that Naruto's selflessness towards Sakura has been emphasized repeatedly, no? How when he saw her hug Sasuke he was hurt, but stepped aside for her sake. Contrast to the beginning of the manga where he was childish with his crush on her and turned into Sasuke. He wouldn't do that now, not even entertain the thought, much less actually go through with it. If being with Sasuke would make Sakura happy, as fucked up as said relationship would be, Naruto would do so without hesitation, even though it would absolutely devastate him. If that's not fucking love, IDK what is. 

Plus, the whole Sai and Sakura each telling the readers that Naruto loves her, but lets ignore that, because reasons! 

Naruto's love for Sakura is stronger than anyone's in the series, bar Minato and Kushina, because he's not selfish (Sakura) or his world doesn't revolve completely around her to the point of unhealthy obsession (Hinata). 

For someone who goes on about context, you surely do ignore the ones that don't favor your own view.


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## Corvida (May 25, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shurei (May 25, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Shurei I'll answer you happily.
> 
> If you think back, you'll remember Sakura putting Sasuke on Naruto.
> "Please bring Sasuke back! I'm begging you!"
> Meanwhile, she focused on bettering herself, so if he ever came back, she would show him that she's not useless (and if you pay attention, she often feels this way in the manga. Always behind them? Yea.)


Thanks for your response but this is not what I am talking about, not at all.




> And now that he's back, there's nothing really to focus on except winning the war.


 Now that he's back, we gained insight on how Sakura sees him. She doesn't trust him.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Sure, the sage and Itachi handed Sasuke's redemption to Naruto, however he's not the one who helped Sasuke's redemption, the dead ass hokages did.
> 
> 
> Still doesn't change what i said he rejected cuz nothing will stop him. Bye



Wow you're pretty rude aren't you?

First of all it remains to be seen if the "dead ass hokages" as you so charmingly put it have redeemed Sasuke at all. Current signs point to no. 

Secondly I addressed how your stance on Naruto's rejection and the promise has holes and you haven't provided any evidence to refute it.





Corvida said:


> That?s because Kakashi actually.....didt have to change any tune at  all. He, rational people as he is, merely did with Sakura and Naruto what you also did in your tirade later on , he did a
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because the contrast can only mean one thing right? Her feelings have grown from a fan-girl crush into mature understanding love. It can't be that she's mature and kind because she hasn't lost all hope for her friend and still wants to save him despite the things he's done?

That's the flaw in your logic. Everything Sakura does or feels relating to Sasuke has to be romantically inspired to you people. Even when viewed by other characters.

I have a different question for you. If Kishimoto is trying to make it so obvious that Sakura still loves Sasuke why did Kakashi word it so ambiguously. He could have easily said how she was just a fan-girl with a crush that developed into a mature woman that would never give up on her love. He didn't. HIs monologue can be interpreted several different ways.


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## SoulFire (May 25, 2014)

> BankaiLegend3135 said:
> 
> 
> > Your side has always argued that Sakura has always loved Sasuke, but when Kakashi says something different you all change your tune saying it was Crush---->Love.
> ...


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## hannah (May 25, 2014)

People, people, everything will be happy in the end and they will all be great firends! Look! 



Come on, does it matter who humps whom in the end? 
You're discussing about love people, be kind to one another. 


Not to be banned by mods I must provide an argument in my post.  
Well...  In the manga I know he definitely acknowledged her strenght. That means he respects her and is likely to look her way in the future. Don't you agree? :33


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## emachina (May 25, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> For someone who goes on about context, you surely do ignore the ones that don't favor your own view. We rational people call that "confirmation bias."



I always love it when people claim to be rational while participating in a pairing thread, that involves fictional ninjas who are fighting to save the world from a super powered zombie whose using the powers of a Bunny Goddess. Said ninjas now have to save the world after the inhabitants of the world looked into a giant eyeball projected onto the moon which caused the population to get wrapped up in a giant tree and sucked into the ninja matrix. 

I'm biased towards my ship, I'll even get a little dirty for my ship. But I will never call this "rational". Seriously, just have some fun with this. It's gonna end how it's gonna end.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> May I step into this lovely conversation?
> 
> You are operating under the incorrect idea that there is only one form of romantic love. As I have said before, I consider a crush to be a form of love--when one is crushing on another, the feelings are just as intense (perhaps more so), the highs as high and the lows as low. But crushes don't always last because the infatuation fades with time and circumstance...OR the feelings can evolve to something deeper. This is what Kakashi alludes to.



You're right there is more than one kind of romantic love. There is also the possibility that romantic love can turn into something more platonic. Kakashi could be alluding to either of these results.



> Let's just admit that Naruto is selfless toward just about everybody. He is a considerate guy. When it comes to seeing Sakura hug Sasuke--he has seen it before, back in the Land of Waves. However, this time his attention is on _Sasuke_ and it is Sasuke's reaction to which he is responding. You may disagree, but this is the only reasoning that appears logical, as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have never been a surprise to Naruto and up until this moment he had never considered that Sasuke might actually respond to her. Naruto stepped aside out of respect to the feelings of _both_ of his team mates.



Sakura is the only person we know Naruto has romantic attraction for. When he acts selfless around her we  should know it's because he loves her. 

In the land of waves are you trying to suggest that Sasuke cared about Sakura hugging him and that Naruto was thinking about Sasuke's feelings in that situation? I don't know what to say  really.



> Are you suggesting that Naruto would turn into Sasuke to please Sakura? Now that_ is_ messed up!



I think what BankaiLegend3135 is saying is even if it would hurt Naruto deeply he would do it if it made the girl he loves happy. 



> I'll believe it when _Naruto_ tells Sakura (and the readers) that he loves her.



That has a very high chance of happening.



> Oh Naruto loves Sakura, all right--but I don't think it has been of a romantic nature for quite a while (the last--and really only--serious reference since the time skip was Sai's flashback, which happened far back in the manga when Naruto, Sai and Sakura were operating as a team, apparently under Yamato). No comment on the slamming of Sakura and Hinata.



Kishimoto would not have Naruto's feelings change without letting the reader know. You may not think that they're all that important but several scenes in the manga indicate otherwise.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Your side has always argued that Sakura has always loved Sasuke, but when Kakashi says something different you all change your tune saying it was Crush---->Love.
> 
> -*tweaks*


Anyone who thinks that early part I Sakura's fan-girling is proof of her loving him....is just wrong . Yes that's blatant evidence of Sakura have romantic feelings towards him, but those feelings did not progress into something deeper until later when she actually got to know him beyond," OOOooo look at that cool, mysterious looking, handsome boy in class who's super strong :33"

Kakashi was simply comparing that fangirl version of Sakura and her "love" 
to insert later part II moments and Part II moments showcasing Sakura's strong feelings towards him. Not going to post this stuff. We've all seen them.

 It's not something difficult to understand really. Her feelings towards Sasuke regarding her love for him, have changed yes. Though changed from fan-girl crush feelings, to ones of actual love. Though this isn't really news we've already known this for a while. I think all the Kakashi comment does is further cement that Sakura's feelings are solely directed towards Sasuke.


hannah said:


> People, people, everything will be happy in the end and they will all be great firends! Look!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope, Sasuke is pure evil and Naruto will kill him. Sakura will finally realize Naruto is the one she truly loves and Hinata...lol who cares about her future she's a side-character


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## Corvida (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory;[QUOTE


[QUOTE said:
			
		

> [
> Because the contrast can only mean one thing right?


Judging from the introductory chapter Kakashi chose to make his comparison with-,  a Young Sakura stating her dreams for the future all flustered and giggly  and WEEEEEEEE, KWEEEEELLLLL, what  would you you think? But seriously.What would you infer?

If Kakashi had had another kind of flashback, but no, he had to go tyo the very beginnings



> [Her feelings have grown from a fan-girl crush into mature understanding love. It can't be that she's mature and kind because she hasn't lost all hope for her friend and still wants to save him despite the things he's done?



And that?s the best. A win -win.

Oh-but the latest sing song-wasnt it that she was always losing hope and that the weak, weak  last flame  of thin hope  was only alive because of the messiah?  Wasnt she relying all the work on love martyr Naruto?

But here we have Kakashi,the one that witnessed the part one team seven dramarama, the one who instantly had guessed Sakura had decided to kill Sasuke herself as the means to prevent him from falling further into darkness,  before Sai could even  sparknote her confession, and that here instatntly gives her seal of approval to a Sakura who still  has, in Kakashi?s own words, brought it upon herself to save Sasuke from darkness...even after he has tried to burst her head open like a mel?n.

And Kakashi, instead of commenting on the girl idiocy or "when she will get the script and leave it to the chosen one".... approves."She wont cast away old Sasuke, no matter what" That?s hilarious!

Now, *that?s* some sisterly dedication and devotion and part one nostalgia, let me tell you.

And let me tell you-it?s a very dangerous thing for  a rival pairing when the female part is still determined and seing as a duty-sisterly, cold or even distant- the saving from darkness her first love and still believing the other one can be changed back as the loved one he was..... after having learnt, the hard way, she coudnt eliminate him before.

And there she is, wondering if Sasuke cares about her.Distantly,. of course.



> That's the flaw in your logic. Everything Sakura does or feels relating to Sasuke has to be romantically inspired to you people. Even when viewed by other characters.
> [



That?s because she herself still instantly spontaneously associates Sasuke and romance-by some hours in manga time, as seen in 540.Oh,  even if she comes around, eventually, or next chapter, this has been gold.Like the biggest constipation in the history of comic books.





> I have a different question for you. If Kishimoto is trying to make it so obvious that Sakura still loves Sasuke why did Kakashi word it so ambiguously. He could have easily said how she was just a fan-girl with a crush that developed into a mature woman that would never give up on her love. He didn't. HIs monologue can be interpreted several different ways.



 because....simnply, He said exactly that. Of course everything pairing related will be Intepreted several ways-hell, it was even tried to be interpreted that he was thinking about Naruto in the love fodder scene  when she had the OMG SASUKE IN FLAMES!!!!!! flashback.

Oh she can have her illumination and joyoius realization, let me see,   let me guess- at the latest, when Sasuke and Naruto fight....again? Or if she gets very very very very disappointed again?

But there she will be, hoping to get Sasuke back "no matter what", with Kakashi?s stamp of approval-there goes your shame,Sakura-chan-.and ready to receive that naughty Uchiha back and laugh together again,  with team seven ,even when she?s married to  Worldkage Naruto.



Sorry but after Iron Land, there?s nothing, absolutely nothing Kishi can do to clean that mess, and these latest events have been glorious. Only pray for one of my pet scenarios, that Naruto has to kill Sasuke himself and live with that -and Sakura- all his life, eating dead sea ashes.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Anyone who thinks that early part I Sakura's fan-girling is proof of her loving him....is just wrong . Yes that's blatant evidence of Sakura have romantic feelings towards him, but those feelings did not progress into something deeper until later when she actually got to know him beyond," OOOooo look at that cool, mysterious looking, handsome boy in class who's super strong :33"
> 
> Kakashi was simply comparing that fangirl version of Sakura and her "love"
> to insert later part II moments and Part II moments showcasing Sakura's strong feelings towards him. Not going to post this stuff. We've all seen them.
> ...



If Kakashi stated it in those terms we would have no argument. The trouble is he worded it ambiguously. Not so obvious as either side would like.



Corvida said:


> Judging from the introductory chapter Kakashi chose to make his comparison with-,  a Young Sakura stating her dreams for the future all flustered and giggly  and WEEEEEEEE, KWEEEEELLLLL, what  would you you think? But seriously.What would you infer?
> 
> If Kakashi had had another kind of flashback, but no, he had to go tyo the very beginnings



Obviously to show growth and change in the characters.



> And that?s the best. A win -win.
> 
> Oh-but the latest sing song-wasnt it that she was always losing hope and that the weak, weak  last flame  of thin hope  was only alive because of the messiah?  Wasnt she relying all the work on love martyr Naruto?



She kind of said it herself that it was because of Naruto that her faith was restored. Make of that what you will I suppose.



> But here we have Kakashi,the one that witnessed the part one team seven dramarama, the one who instantly had guessed Sakura had decided to kill Sasuke herself as the means to prevent him from falling further into darkness,  before Sai could even  sparknote her confession, and that here instatntly gives her seal of approval to a Sakura who still  has, in Kakashi?s own words, brought it upon herself to save Sasuke from darkness...even after he has tried to burst her head open like a mel?n.
> 
> And Kakashi, instead of commenting on the girl idiocy or "when she will get the script and leave it to the chosen one".... approves."She wont cast away old Sasuke, no matter what" That?s hilarious!
> 
> Now, *that?s* some sisterly dedication and devotion and part one nostalgia, let me tell you.



Just because Kakashi approves of Sakrua's dedication to save Sasuke doesn't mean he approves of her romantic love for him. He's never made any such indication.



> And let me tell you-it?s a very dangerous thing for  a rival pairing when the female part is still determined and seing as a duty-sisterly, cold or even distant- the saving from darkness her first love and still believing the other one can be changed back as the loved one he was..... after having learnt, the hard way, she coudnt eliminate him before.
> 
> And there she is, wondering if Sasuke cares about her.Distantly,. of course.



Because it doesn't add more drama that makes it seem like the hero won't get the girl he loves in the end right?



> That?s because she herself still instantly spontaneously associates Sasuke and romance-by some hours in manga time, as seen in 540.Oh,  even if she comes around, eventually, or next chapter, this has been gold.Like the biggest constipation in the history of comic books.



That doesn't necessarily mean her feeling are a deep mature romantic love.



> because....simnply, He said exactly that. Of course everything pairing related will be Intepreted several ways-hell, it was even tried to be interpreted that he was thinking about Naruto in the love fodder scene  when she had the OMG SASUKE IN FLAMES!!!!!! flashback.



Previous interpretations are irrelevant to the current argument.



> Oh she can have her illumination and joyoius realization, let me see,   let me guess- at the latest, when Sasuke and Naruto fight....again? Or if she gets very very very very disappointed again?
> 
> But there she will be, hoping to get Sasuke back "no matter what", with Kakashi?s stamp of approval-there goes your shame,Sakura-chan-.and ready to receive that naughty Uchiha back and laugh together again,  with team seven ,even when she?s married to  Worldkage Naruto



Have you forgotten that Naruto wants Sasuke saved from the darkness just as much if not more than Sakura does?



> Sorry but after Iron Land, there?s nothing, absolutely nothing Kishi can do to clean that mess, and these latest events have been glorious. Only pray for one of my pet scenarios, that Naruto has to kill Sasuke himself and live with that -and Sakura- all his life, eating dead sea ashes.



You didn't address my question in asking why Kishimoto wasn't more straightforward in Kakashi noting Sakura's change in feelings for Sasuke.


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## Njaa (May 25, 2014)

I know you were responding to someone else but I'd like to address some of these points.



FlawlessVictory said:


> Because the contrast can only mean one thing right? Her feelings have grown from a fan-girl crush into mature understanding love. It can't be that she's mature and kind because she hasn't lost all hope for her friend and still wants to save him despite the things he's done?
> 
> That's the flaw in your logic. Everything Sakura does or feels relating to Sasuke has to be romantically inspired to you people. Even when viewed by other characters.



That's mainly due to the fact that Sakura -> Sasuke bond has been presented with some sort of romantic overtone. While it's possible she would want to save him from a purely platonic PoV, it has never been presented as that. Even during iron country, the reason given for Sakura's actions toward Sasuke were because she loved him. 



> I have a different question for you. If Kishimoto is trying to make it so obvious that Sakura still loves Sasuke why did Kakashi word it so ambiguously. *He could have easily said how she was just a fan-girl with a crush that developed into a mature woman that would never give up on her love. He didn't*. HIs monologue can be interpreted several different ways.



Well not everything is written, this is also a visual work. The comparison made was strictly chapter 4 Sakura which was fangirling over Saskue. As for the bold, i honestly don't think that's necessary, Kakashi was there during the whole fake confession and its aftermath. He knows the lengths Sakura is willing to go for Sasuke due to her love for him. Not to mention Kakshi is not aware of her weariness of Sasuke's intentions (in fact was he even present when Sasuke made his declaration to be hokage?) either so it's hard to jump to the platonic interpretation when the last time Kakashi saw any Sakura -> Sasuke thing it was stated to be romantic love.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> If Kakashi stated it in those terms we would have no argument. The trouble is he worded it ambiguously. Not so obvious as either side would like.


It actually is...but...ya I'm just not gonna go any further into this topic...



hannah said:


> I only tried to help.


TRY HARDER


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## SoulFire (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> You're right there is more than one kind of romantic love. There is also the possibility that romantic love can turn into something more platonic. Kakashi could be alluding to either of these results.



Hi FV! First time that I've debated with you, I believe! 

This is true (with Naruto as well as with Sakura). The nature of Kakashi's musings all depends on how that darned Japanese language translates, doesn't it? 



> Sakura is the only person we know Naruto has romantic attraction for. When he acts selfless around her we  should know it's because he loves her.



I'm not so sure about that. I am, after all, a NH fan. 



> In the land of waves are you trying to suggest that Sasuke cared about Sakura hugging him and that Naruto was thinking about Sasuke's feelings in that situation? I don't know what to say  really.



Uh, no.  It was in the Land of Waves where Naruto observed Sakura beside herself in grief, weeping over Sasuke. It is even a memory that he goes back to when Sakura confesses. Naruto was already quite aware of her love for Sasuke when he stepped into that hospital room. It was Sasuke he was addressing and Sasuke that he was looking at when he made that decision to draw that curtain and step away.



> I think what BankaiLegend3135 is saying is even if it would hurt Naruto deeply he would do it if it made the girl he loves happy.



Doesn't make it sound any less messed up! 



> That has a very high chance of happening.


That calls for a 'we'll see' response. 



> Kishimoto would not have Naruto's feelings change without letting the reader know. You may not think that they're all that important but several scenes in the manga indicate otherwise.



Hmm...and I think that a string of scenes (which you might not consider all that important) in the manga may just be indicating that a change in Naruto's feelings has already taken place.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

hannah said:


> Now I feel like a libertarian, standing in-between pissed of Liberals and Conservatives about to be executed.


 nice comparison! 

I'd hope that no matter the results of pairings, Naruto, HInata, Sasuke and Sakura will all be happy.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Hi FV! First time that I've debated with you, I believe!
> 
> This is true (with Naruto as well as with Sakura). The nature of Kakashi's musings all depends on how that darned Japanese language translates, doesn't it?



TY for the welcome.

I'm not so sure how the Japanese language translates is the problem here.



> I'm not so sure about that. I am, after all, a NH fan.



Yes that's subjective. Going by the manga the only one he's said he liked in a romantic context is Sakura. I go by that.



> Uh, no.  It was in the Land of Waves where Naruto observed Sakura beside herself in grief, weeping over Sasuke. It is even a memory that he goes back to when Sakura confesses. Naruto was already quite aware of her love for Sasuke when he stepped into that hospital room. It was Sasuke he was addressing and Sasuke that he was looking at when he made that decision to draw that curtain and step away.



I'm still not sure what you're getting at here. Can Naruto still not be hurt that Sakura devotes so much of her attention to Sasuke? Why would he address Sasuke in this situation?



> Doesn't make it sound any less messed up!



I agree lol. But it's kind of beside the point.




> That calls for a 'we'll see' response.



Yes.



> Hmm...and I think that a string of scenes (which you might not consider all that important) in the manga may just be indicating that a change in Naruto's feelings has already taken place.



I consider those scenes important just not in a romantic context. Evidence points away from Naruto falling for Hinata. Whether you want to think so or not Kishimoto has presented Naruto's feelings for Sakura in a very strong way. He's not going to ambiguously fall out of love with her. And please don't bring up the tired confession argument. It doesn't hold up.


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## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

> Nope, Sasuke is pure evil and Naruto will kill him. Sakura will finally realize Naruto is the one she truly loves and *Hinata...lol who cares about her future she's a side-character *




There's actually some truth to this, I think. If Kishomoto wanted to convince people that NaruHina was going to be the end-relationship and not NaruSaku, Hinata would definitely have to have some more screen-time, especially with Naruto. 

In Part 1, it wouldve made more sense, since Sakura was a clown and Hinata was high on Naruto in almost every one of her scenes. Now it's a bit less clear, and if NaruHina was raised by Kishimoto, it wouldn't be as believable.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

LesExit said:


> nice comparison!
> 
> I'd hope that no matter the results of pairings, Naruto, HInata, Sasuke and Sakura will all be happy.



Well said. There are multiple scenarios where this could be true. Let's not impose our own feelings on these characters and dictate how they would feel if they didn't end up with the character of our choice.


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## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

shurei said:


> I did, I said it was a deflection. IE it was a dumbass question.



You mean a strawman?


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## Michael Senpai (May 25, 2014)

Shurei, don't throw shots that you can still be hit with.

When it comes down to it, if you can't argue your own point, you don't need to be even in the debate thread. I may not be a mod, but I'm sure everyone else would appreciate it if you'd both stop antagonizing each other, and start debating respectfully.


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## sakuraboobs (May 25, 2014)

Kakashi's monologue can't be interpreted in different ways. Sorry but that's only your wishful thinking. All translations means the same and the japanese raws are very clear about it.  

Kakshi's comparing Sakura now with Sakura back then (chap.4) . He says that even thought it's the same love (romantic), her feelings are now in a whole different level which means that her crush on Sasuke back then developed in something stronger compared to that time and we readers could witness this - Land of waves - FoD - Gaara's fight - Sakura's love confession - Iron country - and certainly again very soon.

Kakashi only meant what I said before and it wouldn't make sense other way because not even two days ago in the manga Sakura's herself said to be in love with someone else - Sasuke. 

Platonic is out of question. She's in love with Sasuke.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 25, 2014)

And last week's chapter she was boo hooing because she thinks Sasuke doesn't care about her. 
So platonic


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## Njaa (May 25, 2014)

Risyth said:


> [/B]
> 
> There's actually some truth to this, I think. If Kishomoto wanted to convince people that NaruHina was going to be the end-relationship and not NaruSaku, Hinata would definitely have to have some more screen-time, especially with Naruto.
> 
> In Part 1, it wouldve made more sense, since Sakura was a clown and Hinata was high on Naruto in almost every one of her scenes. Now it's a bit less clear, and if NaruHina was raised by Kishimoto, it wouldn't be as believable.



The funny thing about that though, is that most of her part 2 screen time is about or with Naruto. In fact the biggest complaints about her is that she's so Naruto centric. Obviously that doesn't necessarily mean NH, but being a side character isn't exactly the huge detraction it's made out to be.


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## sakuraboobs (May 25, 2014)

Oh! Yes, that too! So much platonic


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## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

I probably phrased that wrongly. What I meant is that she doesn't have as much of it. It probably feels that way since the Hinata&Naruto moments are so close together in Part 1. But in Part 2, she just doesn't have a good flow of them. 

It's like you knew Hinata was eventually going to be the one for Naruto in the PTS because of the consistency, but come the Part 2, it's "Oh, there's Hinata again for her quick moment with Naruto before she's offed for another dozen+ chapters." At least, that's how Hinata&Naruto's like in Part 2 for me, anyway. Like someone's trying to drive with a clutch and jerking the car. ww


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> Kakashi's monologue can't be interpreted in different ways. Sorry but that's only your wishful thinking. All translations means the same and the japanese raws are very clear about it.
> 
> Kakshi's comparing Sakura now with Sakura back then (chap.4) . He says that even thought it's the same love (romantic), her feelings are now in a whole different level which means that her crush on Sasuke back then developed in something stronger compared to that time and we readers could witness this - Land of waves - FoD - Gaara's fight - Sakura's love confession - Iron country - and certainly again very soon.
> 
> ...



Actually it can and it has. Just as you are interpreting it right now. The trouble you have is that ambiguity is very dangerous for SasuSaku at this point so you can only see it being interpreted one way. Sakura has not stated she's in love with Sasuke for some time now.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Actually it can and it has. Just as you are interpreting it right now. The trouble you have is that ambiguity is very dangerous for SasuSaku at this point so you can only see it being interpreted one way. Sakura has not stated she's in love with Sasuke for some time now.



It can't. 

WTF? Sakura stated 24 hours ago that she was in love with Saucy!


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

^
She's said the phrase "I'm in love with Sasuke." has she? Insinuations are not the same as Sakura declaring it herself.


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## hannah (May 25, 2014)

I have failed.


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## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

^I blame Rinoa. 


(To avoid modpower, it was a failed premise: even Kishimoto has a side he's moving towards. Ostensibly, it's Hinata. It was definitely Hinata back when Sakura was a prick in Part 1.)


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> ^
> She's said the phrase "I'm in love with Sasuke." has she? Insinuations are not the same as Sakura declaring it herself.



OMG. I MF CAN'T YO. 

Just because Sakura didn't say ''I'm in love with Saucy" thats ambiguous? whatever how we spell that shit
Just because Sasuke appears in a frame where Sakura thinks about him romantically it's different? 

I can't even. Lawd.


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## SoulFire (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> I'm not so sure how the Japanese language translates is the problem here.


Yeah, it's often the problem--especially on the pairing front. 



> Going by the manga the only one he's said he liked in a romantic context is Sakura. I go by that.



I go by events in the story's progression and character reaction to them.



> I'm still not sure what you're getting at here. Can Naruto still not be hurt that Sakura devotes so much of her attention to Sasuke? Why would he address Sasuke in this situation?



I'm saying that Naruto would not be having an epiphany of pain over seen Sakura hug/cry/fawn over Sasuke, as this was nothing new to him. What _was_ new was Sasuke's reaction to her hug. Remember, Naruto was coming in to see Sasuke upon learning that he had awakened--his attention was on Sasuke, not Sakura (who wasn't even facing him). He was even in the process of addressing Sasuke when he saw Sasuke's glance at Sakura and withdrew.



> I consider those scenes important just not in a romantic context. Evidence points away from Naruto falling for Hinata. Whether you want to think so or not Kishimoto has presented Naruto's feelings for Sakura in a very strong way. He's not going to ambiguously fall out of love with her. And please don't bring up the tired confession argument. It doesn't hold up.



I find the evidence against NH within this war arc weak at best. I haven't seen strong romantic feelings toward Sakura emanating from Naruto in a long, long while. Comedic scenes and shared angst over Sasuke doesn't cut it with me.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

^
You still don't seem to understand the difference between a character stating something and something being suggested. It is suggested that Sakura still has those feelings for Sasuke. It is not outright stated as you said she did. Suggestions can be put into a story to throw the reader off. Sakura herself hasn't stated she loved Sasuke since her confession all those years ago.


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## Eternity (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> ^
> She's said the phrase "I'm in love with Sasuke." has she? Insinuations are not the same as Sakura declaring it herself.



Has Naruto said the phrase "Im in love with Sakura"? And a "yes" is not acceptable unless you can show the actual panel.



FlawlessVictory said:


> ^
> You still don't seem to understand the difference between a character  stating something and something being suggested. It is suggested that  Sakura still has those feelings for Sasuke. It is not outright stated as  you said she did. Suggestions can be put into a story to throw the  reader off. *Sakura herself hasn't stated she loved Sasuke since her  confession all those years ago*.





FlawlessVictory said:


> ^
> She's said the phrase "I'm in love with Sasuke." has she? Insinuations are not the same as Sakura declaring it herself.



Sooo... she did say she loved him. I am confused as to what you are saying here..


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## sakuraboobs (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> ^
> She's said the phrase "I'm in love with Sasuke." has she? Insinuations are not the same as Sakura declaring it herself.



"Sorry, I'm already in love with someone else"  - thinks about Sasuke.


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## Corvida (May 25, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eternity (May 25, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> "Sorry, I'm already in love with someone else"  - thinks about Sasuke.



Oh, totally forgot about that part. 

So yeah, there we go, another one from her own mouth.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I probably phrased that wrongly. What I meant is that she doesn't have as much of it. It probably feels that way since the Hinata&Naruto moments are so close together in Part 1. But in Part 2, she just doesn't have a good flow of them.
> 
> It's like you knew Hinata was eventually going to be the one for Naruto in the PTS because of the consistency, but come the Part 2, it's "Oh, there's Hinata again for her quick moment with Naruto before she's offed for another dozen+ chapters." At least, that's how Hinata&Naruto's like in Part 2 for me, anyway. Like someone's trying to drive with a clutch and jerking the car. ww


Is romance in general in this manga written in a way that flows too well? Theres much more to the story than these pairings. The manga itself is not a romantic genre, it's not surprising that romantic moments comes here and there. You've got wars and battles in between everything. I think the flow between the moments is alright considering all the battles and such. I think the NH moments of the war arc have flowed together pretty nicely though, and have pointed towards nothing but a positive outcome. Maybe they feel far apart cause it's been like 3 years XD Though hasn't it been like...2 days?? :0 That's so weird.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I go by events in the story's progression and character reaction to them.



How would you explain Naruto's reactions to Hinata's actions as being romantic?



> I'm saying that Naruto would not be having an epiphany of pain over seen Sakura hug/cry/fawn over Sasuke, as this was nothing new to him. What _was_ new was Sasuke's reaction to her hug. Remember, Naruto was coming in to see Sasuke upon learning that he had awakened--his attention was on Sasuke, not Sakura (who wasn't even facing him). He was even in the process of addressing Sasuke when he saw Sasuke's glance at Sakura and withdrew.



It doesn't need to be an epiphany for Naruto to feel pain. Naruto has never once thought about Sasuke's possible feelings for Sakura. I think you're reading too much into the scene.



> I find the evidence against NH within this war arc weak at best. I haven't seen strong romantic feelings toward Sakura emanating from Naruto in a long, long while. Comedic scenes and shared angst over Sasuke doesn't cut it with me.



I don't. First and foremost he hasn't blushed at any of Hinata's supposed romantic gestures. He's blushed in reaction to Sakura many times. Second if he had changing feelings he would not have lied to his father about who was his girlfriend. And yes I've read your old argument about how you think that Naruto was trying to explain to his dad about how Sakura wasn't in fact his girlfriend, but that argument simply doesn't make sense. 

Also what would you even define as romantic feelings for Sakura emanating from Naruto? Many think that Naruto has never had romantic feelings for Sakura.

@Eternity

I will excuse you for misinterpreting my words as I suspect English is not your first language. I was contradicting the other user's statement that she stated it just a day ago in the manga.

@sasusakucannon

She did not think about Sasuke directly following that statement.


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## Elicit94 (May 25, 2014)

I'm sorry but how does the MP and MS translations imply that her feelings have become stronger? Personally, I think that what those translations seem to imply is that her romantic feelings have regressed, not that they have become platonic or stronger. If it could mean that her feelings have grown, it would have been worded in a way that is similar to the viz translation. I don't see how "Even if you still like him, It's probably a different feeling" or "Though you might still like him, it's a different feeling now" could be interpreted as a stronger love.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I'm sorry but how does the MP and MS translations imply that her feelings have become stronger? Personally, I think that what those translations seem to imply is that her romantic feelings have regressed, not that they have become platonic or stronger. If it could mean that her feelings have grown, it would have been worded in a way that is similar to the viz translation. I don't see how "Even if you still like him, It's probably a different feeling" or "Though you might still like him, it's a different feeling now" could be interpreted as a stronger love.



Exactly.

You don't tell your describe someone's love in real life like "You still like him, it's a different though"

No. You cut right to the bullshit and say "Damn, her love has gotten stronger." 

Which Kakashi clearly didn't do.


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## LesExit (May 25, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> You don't tell your describe someone's love in real life like "You still like him, it's a different though"
> 
> ...


The fact that Sakura's love for Sasuke is stronger than it was in Chapter (3? Which is precisely the version of Sakura's feelings he was referring too) isn't new information. We all know that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have developed into something stronger, genuine love for him. What else would Kakashi mean when he say's that besides, yes the romantic feelings are still there, but it's not on that fan-girl level, it's on a genuine level. So much so that regardless of whether or not Sasuke too far in the darkness, you still want to help him. It really paints Sakura in a positive light, cause it shows she's not helping Sasuke for herself, as in she's not expecting some romantic rewards for helping him, but she just cares for him so much that she wants to save him. Just like when she tried to kill him, her actions were out of her love for him, but they weren't for some romantic reward(lol he'd be dead). Her feelings have matured. Now once again really none of this information is new, people are acting like Kakashi just gave us on some life-changing information regarding Sakura's, feelings, he hasn't  We've known all this.


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## sapikcan (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Yes that's subjective. Going by the manga the only one he's said he liked in a romantic context is Sakura. I go by that.


Hmm..

*Almost a month ago by Sai, Naruto and Karin*


*Spoiler*: __ 



















*Almost a day ago by Sakura herself*


*And almost 10 minutes ago by Kakashi*

*Spoiler*: __ 









Going by the manga the only one Sakura's said, she liked in a romantic context is Sasuke.  
So, will you go by that too?
*
Seriously people!! What must Kishi do for you to understand she loves Sasuke??*


And about that "girlfriend" issue..

It's obvious that Sakura is not Naruto's girlfriend (whether he still loves her or not). So if Naruto *really* mean that "she is my girlfriend" then he literally *lied* to his father. We all know that he doesn't like liers. (especially who lies to themselves  ) 

So which one makes sense?

He totally lied to his father?
He did misunderstand something? 
Or He just made a stupid joke which Hinata didnt give a shit.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Bingo!-And there was Naruto, speaking about Hokagedom, way before knowing what hokagedom really implied, and there was Sakura and her puppy love, long before landing from fairy land and realizing what the "kwelness"  of Sasuke wanting to kill a certain man really implied, , just before.....the full of part one happened and before really getting  to know her team. But the Sakura forever romantically frozen in chapter 3...till now  in still a favourite in many parts.



So there's no possible way that Sakura's dream when she was a, as even many SS shippers put it,  "fan-girl with a shallow crush," has changed? Naruto isn't just about becoming hokage anymore is he? Would you say his dream is exactly the same? And if Sakura's dream has changed why does it still need to include getting together with Sasuke romantically?




> Oh But I do   ..I dont really care about the specific reasons of Sakura?s belief in a happy ending, post Iron land debacle,  as that?s part of Naruto?s messianic  job description.  Specially after the shameles  universal" hare hare, hare Nardo " of the fight against Obito-, but in a  Sakura  that, still stubbornly thinks that a happy ending implies not believing in Naruto, but believing in both Naruto and Sasuke. Why she still wants Sasuke back to his previous  "saner"self,, or something like that, and why she still wants Sasuke to be part of the happy ending-leches, the nostalgia is strong in this one,....is the point here.



Romantic aspirations aren't required to want your old friend back the way he was.



> He had previously taken it as a fact, as Naruto did,when Sai went all "becasue she looooves him" and Naruto echoed it "she loves Sasuke so much" in Iron land arc.Now, re-evaluating grown Sakura,  He dint  tought- you?re a loyal girl to the Messiah, Sakura, and it?s sweet that  for devotion to the Messiah?s private  dream  of "two Pals and It"...you have brought upon yourself the task of saving Sasuke from darkness
> No He openly recognizes she still has feelings for the one who tried to take her life,and wont cast him away, no matter what.., says that she sees it as a task brough upon herself personally... and he?s ok with it.and finds it sweet.



It's not Kakashi's job to notice that Naruto and Sakura have grown closer. He notes that it's kind for Sakura not to give up on Sasuke.




> Marvelous. And Kishi can be "creating drama" straight to the  Naruto and Sasuke?s duel of the fates, or better still, Sakura can be wondering whether Sasuke cares when she?s marrying Naruto, for all the drama Kishi can cr?ate.



If he so desires then yes.



> But if all you care about is for the hero to "get the girl" in the end......look that hero doesnt look as the biggest Juan Lanas in the Universe in the process, at least.


 
That's far from what I care the most about. I care about the story resolving in the way that fits best with the way it's been set up and told.



> The most aggravating thing is the scene was after the Iron Land fiasco-and still no sunny Naruto smiley.But she?s coming close,only a Little more.






> I did-He was straighforward enough in Sakura?s "change of feeling"-coudnt have be more( except by saying"you?re not a giggling, blushing, blindly adoring  chapter 4 anymore")-when he affirmed that Sakura?s woudnt  cast Sasuke away "no matter what" even after murder attempts becasue feelings.



Feelings which Naruto also has. It doesn't change my argument that he easily could have said it more directly. Was my previous example not thorough and simple enough?




> And Sakura still asking about Sasuke?s care?
> 
> 
> That?s sisterly interest.
> ...



It could be. Sisterly, friendly, whatever way you want to put it.

@sapikcan

All other characters saying it. Not Sakura herself.

Also about the girlfriend thing yes I believe he was lying to his father. Note: He's not lying to himself about his feelings.


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## SoulFire (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> How would you explain Naruto's reactions to Hinata's actions as being romantic?



During this war arc Kishi has been repeatedly bringing Naruto and Hinata together in order to develop their relationship. How can one not see the romantic implications of Hinata cupping Naruto's face with a comforting hand or Naruto taking that hand in his and giving it a squeeze while he smiles into her eyes? 

Naruto is not necessarily 'in love' (though he could be coming close) with Hinata, but he has certainly been showing his interest and Hinata has responded with growing confidence that she will indeed be at his side at war's end.



> It doesn't need to be an epiphany for Naruto to feel pain. Naruto has never once thought about Sasuke's possible feelings for Sakura. I think you're reading too much into the scene.


Or perhaps you are reading too little into it?  That hospital visit was initial catalyst in Naruto's decision to end serious pursuit of Sakura: He realized something that made him step away and consider within his mind that Sakura was 'Sasuke's girl'. Sakura's request and the PoaL was just the icing on the 'time to move on' cake. 



> I don't.


I wouldn't expect you to find War Arc evidence for NH anything but weak. You are NS, after all! 



> First and foremost he hasn't blushed at any of Hinata's supposed romantic gestures. He's blushed in reaction to Sakura many times. Second if he had changing feelings he would not have lied to his father about who was his girlfriend. And yes I've read your old argument about how you think that Naruto was trying to explain to his dad about how Sakura wasn't in fact his girlfriend, but that argument simply doesn't make sense.



Naruto harbored a crush for Sakura for the entire first part and a period of the second--and to be honest, Kishi loved blushes in the first part and used them often and for various reasons--even Sasuke blushes! And yes--Naruto _has_ blushed while interacting with Hinata: The proud failure scene in Ch. 98. 

So you're wise to me, eh?  As I've said earlier, I don't take comic relief seriously.



> Also what would you even define as romantic feelings for Sakura emanating from Naruto? Many think that Naruto has never had romantic feelings for Sakura.



Naruto was always vying for Sakura's attention in part one: He attempted to steal a kiss, etc., but really most of his pursuit attempts and interactions with her were more comedic than romantic. The PoaL is the only scene I can recall that had true romantic implications (it hurts to say goodbye to the dream). Haven't seen many in part two that aren't actually more about their shared quest for Sasuke--again, most of their scenes have a comedic element to them. Sai's flashback is the closest it gets and that's about it.


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## sapikcan (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> @sapikcan
> 
> All other characters saying it. Not Sakura herself.






Also you said that u dont see Naruhina scenes romantic because Naruto didnt blush (Hinata didnt blush either but anyway) So if blushing is that important for a romantic scene, why didnt he blush when he was telling to his father "she is my girlfriend" if he really meant that?


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## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Is romance in general in this manga written in a way that flows too well? Theres much more to the story than these pairings. The manga itself is not a romantic genre, it's not surprising that romantic moments comes here and there. You've got wars and battles in between everything. I think the flow between the moments is alright considering all the battles and such. I think the NH moments of the war arc have flowed together pretty nicely though, and have pointed towards nothing but a positive outcome. Maybe they feel far apart cause it's been like 3 years XD Though hasn't it been like...2 days?? :0 That's so weird.



Either way, if Kishimoto doesn't write his preferred pairing better, that end love scene--if there is one--is going to look extremely forced.

To me, anyway.


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## sapikcan (May 25, 2014)

If a mangaka draws a boy and a girl holding hands over and over again (about 10 times i guess) and if he makes it a volume cover also if the anime team uses it on both opening and ending, that must ring the bells for you guys. If it doesnt, you will be suprised at the end of manga and thats not mangakas fault.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> During this war arc Kishi has been repeatedly bringing Naruto and Hinata together in order to develop their relationship. How can one not see the romantic implications of Hinata cupping Naruto's face with a comforting hand or Naruto taking that hand in his and giving it a squeeze while he smiles into her eyes?



Fair enough. Still manga conventions imply the scenes are non-romantic. 



> Naruto is not necessarily 'in love' (though he could be coming close) with Hinata, but he has certainly been showing his interest and Hinata has responded with growing confidence that she will indeed be at his side at war's end.



I haven't seen him showing interest in pursuing a romance with her. Hinata's statements like so many others in this manga are vague. Being at his side does not have to mean marriage.



> Or perhaps you are reading too little into it?  That hospital visit was initial catalyst in Naruto's decision to end serious pursuit of Sakura: He realized something that made him step away and consider within his mind that Sakura was 'Sasuke's girl'. Sakura's request and the PoaL was just the icing on the 'time to move on' cake.



I'd say you have it backwards. Naruto saw Sasuke was Sakura's boy. His later conversation with Sai is pretty contradictory to the idea that he was "moving on."




> I wouldn't expect you to find War Arc evidence for NH anything but weak. You are NS, after all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even if Naruto did blush out of romantic feelings way back then the fact that he doesn't now should be pretty telling. Just because you don't take comedy seriously doesn't mean Kishimoto doesn't.



> Naruto was always vying for Sakura's attention in part one: He attempted to steal a kiss, etc., but really most of his pursuit attempts and interactions with her were more comedic than romantic. The PoaL is the only scene I can recall that had true romantic implications (it hurts to say goodbye to the dream). Haven't seen many in part two that aren't actually more about their shared quest for Sasuke--again, most of their scenes have a comedic element to them. Sai's flashback is the closest it gets and that's about it.



Sai's flashback is pretty poignant. Naruto's initial face at Sakura's declaration of love was pretty poignant. Him protecting Sakura's feelings in front of Tazuna and the Kumo ninja was pretty poignant. He wasn't thinking about Sasuke in those instances.

@sapikcan

Why Naruto didn't blush when he told his father that I don't really know. Still the fact that he didn't around Hinata during that big scene was pretty telling to me. 

That scene was the biggest that Naruto and Hinata have ever had together. It was a way for them to remind each other of their shared nindo and what Naruto means to everyone. I have no problem with that scene as it beautifully encapsulates everything that NaruHina stands for. It however did not stand out romantically and is just one scene of Naruto with one of his countless relationships. There was no follow up and the fact that Naruto made no mention of HInata to his father should mean something significant. Hinata means almost nothing to anybody outside of Naruto and Neji.


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## sapikcan (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> @sapikcan
> 
> Why Naruto didn't blush when he told his father that I don't really know.



I think i know. 



FlawlessVictory said:


> Still the fact that he didn't around Hinata during that big scene was pretty telling to me.



That scene wasnt that big as you remember. It was just a joke. It didnt make a cover or smth...



FlawlessVictory said:


> That scene was the biggest that Naruto and Hinata have ever had together. It was a way for them to remind each other of their shared nindo and what Naruto means to everyone. I have no problem with that scene as it beautifully encapsulates everything that NaruHina stands for. It however did not stand out romantically and is just one scene of Naruto with one of his countless relationships.



In his countless relationships, Naruto didn't hold anyone else's hand. And holding hands is considered to be romantic by almost every culture. If not blushing is the reason you dont consider it romantic, then why do think Hinata didnt blush? Because it was obvious that she thinks, holding Naruto kun's big hand is romantic. (makes her feel safe, remember?)


----------



## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> If a mangaka draws a boy and a girl holding hands over and over again (about 10 times i guess) and if he makes it a volume cover also if the anime team uses it on both opening and ending, that must ring the bells for you guys. If it doesnt, you will be suprised at the end of manga and thats not mangakas fault.



Who said anything about surprise? 

That's just poorly written romance.


----------



## Revolution (May 25, 2014)

If it wasn't for illogic like this, I'd be a much bigger SasuSaku shipper then I am now (which hangs by a thread because there is no relationship).  I absolutely hate this moment because Sasuke is dead for all she knows.  She never should expect to see him again.


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## Corvida (May 25, 2014)

> FlawlessVictory said:
> 
> 
> > So there's no possible way that Sakura's dream when she was a, as even many SS shippers put it,  "fan-girl with a shallow crush," has changed?
> ...


----------



## sapikcan (May 25, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Who said anything about surprise?
> 
> That's just poorly written romance.



I dont think it is written poorly.  We know Naruto, since he was born. Naruto's biggest wish was *to be loved* because he didnt have parents and nobody loved him. It's hard for a little kid not to be loved. That's why he wanted to be Hokage. He thought that if he becomes strong and eventually becomes Hokage, everybody will love him. Being loved was his obsession. 
Then one day, a girl (named Hinata) told him that she loves him unconditionally. Not because he is strong or anything, she loves him just the way he is. And she showed him that it's not a joke, she was loving him more then her own life.  It's more then enough to impress Naruto. It's not a big suprise for a guy like him, who is hungry for being loved, to fall in love with a girl like Hinata. It's simple but it makes sense. It's a shonen after all. I dont expect all the story revolves around romance.


----------



## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Do you think so? Do you think that, as in Naruto?s case, the dream has changed pe se, or seing that the  chapter is called the present. dream.what has changed is the way in which the dream it is pursued as the dreamers have matured and expanded views? Was chapter 3 Sakura the same girl as the one  at the end of part one-she had stopped pestering Sasuke with date requests ages ago, and yet she confesed. Now.....
> 
> Here we have Sakura?s present dream.The task she has brought upon herself. Walkig before running.  The saving from darkness.She knows the boy she loved romantically  was not only lost to her, but became an international criminal and went, literally, nuts. She?s still waiting to know what  exactly happened after he killed Itachi  and  how she can help.
> 
> ...



Naruto's dream has far eclipsed a simple desire for acknowledgment from the people and the title of hokage. He wants to save everyone, most especially Sasuke. Sakura may now feel the need to save Sasuke from the darkness but no longer desire him romantically. Also we the readers as well as Kakashi doesn't know what Sasuke really wants.

I do think that Sakura will hear the story of Sasuke's background and it will affect her greatly. I don't think it's going to close the circle on her romantic feelings for him though.




> Walking before running. First, the laughing  together again part.In that part, Sakura?s dream hasnt changed from the girl of the end of part one at all. The girl that sai they were all happy (!) even with all that had happened and loved Sasuke with  all her heart..
> Then. something Sakura seems to want even now.
> 
> The dream,yes,  or  rather, the big question.



I don't think we know exactly what Sakura wants from Sasuke. Hopefully we find out soon.




> Nope, see Naruto-the brotherly vesion. But.........
> 
> But Sakura needs romantic closure, I?m afraid Love ltter fodder scene and her "There?s already someone" and later scenes prove it
> 
> ...



I agree she absolutely needs closure, and I have a very good feeling she will get it. 

There's a lot of bad things said about Sasuke. I don't agree with a lot of it but I do agree that he never especially cared about Sakura.

Her position being in a shonen shouldn't have any special meaning. Already you viewing her as Naruto's trophy kind of shows where your mindset is in relation to the pairing.



> Ah,no?-how curious and what a very, very  nice girl is this Sakura after this bastard  almost decapitated and strangled her. Then her nostalgic and dutiful dedication to the memory of her  old  team  must be otherworldly...I stil wonder why can she want back someone which
> didnt give her the ime of day
> If not for her Narto?s sake, that is.



Bonds. She had a relationship with Sasuke. It was important to her.



> NO-you ony care about  Hero getting the girl in the end and to hell about the way it fits best.



I'm afraid that is quite the assumption on your part.



> No.As we put in Spain, after the way  Kakashi phrased his secod tirade more clear, w?ter.



You still haven't convinced me that he did put it clearly. You continuing to assert the same thing isn't getting us anywhere.



> Tha?s the tragedy of it.



How so?


----------



## BeBreezy (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> @sasusakucannon
> 
> She did not think about Sasuke directly following that statement.



That's missing the point. The point is that when her feelings are brought up Sasuke is the only one she thinks of.


----------



## SoulFire (May 25, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Fair enough. Still manga conventions imply the scenes are non-romantic.


I don't worry myself with 'manga conventions'. Kishi has been influenced by far more than other manga. The hand holding scene was important enough to make the cover of the tankubon and to be referenced in both the opening and ending of the anime. 



> I haven't seen him showing interest in pursuing a romance with her. Hinata's statements like so many others in this manga are vague. Being at his side does not have to mean marriage.



Naruto's interest in Hinata is still developing, and Kishi continues to tease at this as with the last chapter. I find Hinata's statements very clear. She intends to be by Naruto's side, holding his hand at war's end. She has even said that she wants to be with him for always. She's not looking to be his good buddy--she loves the boy and wants to share his life.



> I'd say you have it backwards. Naruto saw Sasuke was Sakura's boy. His later conversation with Sai is pretty contradictory to the idea that he was "moving on."



It all depends on how you view that hospital scene.  In Sai's flashback Naruto already sounds like he has moved on, and his pov is watching Sakura disappear in the distance. Moving on does not necessarily mean dropping one's feelings and Naruto's crush likely remained more or less at that time--and that time has long passed, with the possibility of love from another presenting itself. 



> Even if Naruto did blush out of romantic feelings way back then the fact that he doesn't now should be pretty telling. Just because you don't take comedy seriously doesn't mean Kishimoto doesn't.


 
I don't believe that Naruto blushed out of romantic feelings at that moment in Ch 98(nor do I consider his blushes toward Sakura to be solely romantic in nature). Naruto was shocked and surprised by Hinata's words. Blushes are not necessary to make for romantic progression, imo.




> Sai's flashback is pretty poignant. Naruto's initial face at Sakura's declaration of love was pretty poignant. Him protecting Sakura's feelings in front of Tazuna and the Kumo ninja was pretty poignant. He wasn't thinking about Sasuke in those instances.



In Sai's memory Naruto is wistful but accepting. All I see in Naruto's reaction to Sakura's confession is puzzlement and surprise. Naruto was covering for Sasuke's absence in front of Tazuna. I consider the face off against the Kumo nin as Sasuke-centric and having more to do with Team 7 and their fears and puzzlement over their loved missing member. Naruto was as concerned about Sasuke and what he had done as Sakura.



> Why Naruto didn't blush when he told his father that I don't really know. Still the fact that he didn't around Hinata during that big scene was pretty telling to me.



Naruto didn't blush because the scene was merely for comic affect. Naruto's interaction with Hinata was solemn and sad. Naruto was in shock. A romantic blush had no place in that scene.



> That scene was the biggest that Naruto and Hinata have ever had together. It was a way for them to remind each other of their shared nindo and what Naruto means to everyone. I have no problem with that scene as it beautifully encapsulates everything that NaruHina stands for. It however did not stand out romantically and is just one scene of Naruto with one of his countless relationships. There was no follow up and the fact that Naruto made no mention of HInata to his father should mean something significant.



There hasn't been time for 'follow up' to the hand holding scene, though Kishi has gone back to it through Hinata to show us Naruto giving her a gentle smile and squeezing her fingers, which counts for something. 

The scene with Minato was a part of the coming Team 7 set up. There was no place of Hinata there.
And Naruto's reaction when he sensed her distress in the last chapter wasn't placed there for giggles and grins.



> Hinata means almost nothing to anybody outside of Naruto and Neji.



Hiashi, Hanabi, Koh and the Hyuuga clan beg to differ.


----------



## FlawlessVictory (May 25, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I don't worry myself with 'manga conventions'. Kishi has been influenced by far more than other manga. The hand holding scene was important enough to make the cover of the tankubon and to be referenced in both the opening and ending of the anime.



He's utilized those same conventions in this manga several times. I guess it's possible that he'd just drop them though I find that highly unlikely. The hand holding scene was NaruHina's biggest moment and Hinata is a popular character. It's a good thing for her.




> Naruto's interest in Hinata is still developing, and Kishi continues to tease at this as with the last chapter. I find Hinata's statements very clear. She intends to be by Naruto's side, holding his hand at war's end. She has even said that she wants to be with him for always. She's not looking to be his good buddy--she loves the boy and wants to share his life.



That's your interpretation. She's said nothing of marriage or even Naruto returning her love. She said she wanted to be by Naruto's side too when Shikamaru talked about becoming Naruto's adviser.



> It all depends on how you view that hospital scene.  In Sai's flashback Naruto already sounds like he has moved on, and his pov is watching Sakura disappear in the distance. Moving on does not necessarily mean dropping one's feelings and Naruto's crush likely remained more or less at that time--and that time has long passed, with the possibility of love from another presenting itself.



Are you conveniently ignoring what Naruto said in that scene? His words do not imply that he's moved on. He says that he can't confess to Sakura because he can't keep his promises. 



> I don't believe that Naruto blushed out of romantic feelings at that moment in Ch 98(nor do I consider his blushes toward Sakura to be solely romantic in nature). Naruto was shocked and surprised by Hinata's words. Blushes are not necessary to make for romantic progression, imo.



Maybe not necessary but frequently used even in this manga. Naruto blushed when Sakura said she loved him. The hand hold scene for all its supposed romantic power at the least should have produced a blush.



> In Sai's memory Naruto is wistful but accepting. All I see in Naruto's reaction to Sakura's confession is puzzlement and surprise. Naruto was covering for Sasuke's absence in front of Tazuna. I consider the face off against the Kumo nin as Sasuke-centric and having more to do with Team 7 and their fears and puzzlement over their loved missing member. Naruto was as concerned about Sasuke and what he had done as Sakura.



In your opinion he's accepting in Sai's flashback. I agree that he's wistful. He has a joyful face complete with blush when Sakura says she loves him. Later comes the puzzlement. Remember the way he looked at Sakura when Tazuna asked about Sasuke. The same with the Kumo nin. Look at his face when she started crying. Yes Naruto was concerned about Sasuke as well but he was obviously hurt when Sakura started crying.



> Naruto didn't blush because the scene was merely for comic affect. Naruto's interaction with Hinata was solemn and sad. Naruto was in shock. A romantic blush had no place in that scene.



You could be right about the first. The second sounds awfully convenient. 



> There hasn't been time for 'follow up' to the hand holding scene, though Kishi has gone back to it through Hinata to show us Naruto giving her a gentle smile and squeezing her fingers, which counts for something.



Maybe, maybe not. 



> The scene with Minato was a part of the coming Team 7 set up. There was no place of Hinata there.
> And Naruto's reaction when he sensed her distress in the last chapter wasn't placed there for giggles and grins.



If it is revealed that he was reacting solely to her distress in upcoming chapters I will give it to you. Until then it's likely he was reacting to everyone. Team 7 didn't happen until Sasuke got there. HInata was available.



> Hiashi, Hanabi, Koh and the Hyuuga clan beg to differ.



What interactions has she had with them in the manga?


----------



## Risyth (May 25, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> I dont think it is written poorly.  We know Naruto, since he was born. Naruto's biggest wish was *to be loved* because he didnt have parents and nobody loved him. It's hard for a little kid not to be loved. That's why he wanted to be Hokage. He thought that if he becomes strong and eventually becomes Hokage, everybody will love him. Being loved was his obsession.
> Then one day, a girl (named Hinata) told him that she loves him unconditionally. Not because he is strong or anything, she loves him just the way he is. And she showed him that it's not a joke, she was loving him more then her own life.  It's more then enough to impress Naruto. It's not a big suprise for a guy like him, who is hungry for being loved, to fall in love with a girl like Hinata. It's simple but it makes sense. It's a shonen after all. I dont expect all the story revolves around romance.



Holding hands for a few spaced out panels -> marriage is poor writing. That's all I'll say about that.


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## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

> FlawlessVictory said:
> 
> 
> > Naruto's dream has far eclipsed a simple desire for acknowledgment from the people and the title of hokage. He wants to save everyone, most especially Sasuke[
> ...


----------



## BatoKusanagi (May 26, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Interesting. Naruto says he doesn't care about the PoAL. Prove it. Sai said Naruto didn't love Sakura. Prove it.


Read chapter 470. He renounces the promise _twice_.



> Also Naruto doesn't care about Sakura or the promise huh? That's why he said he cant confess to her because he can't keep it?
> 
> Your logic is flawed my friend.


Are you reading the manga backwards? Naruto said he supposedly couldn't tell Sakura how he felt because of the promise, but then, later, Naruto states that the promise is irrelevant to him, which means that in reality there was nothing stopping him if he actually wanted to confess (he doesn't), it's just that his crush is irrelevant (and has always been) and that Naruto is perfectly aware of who Sakura loves and has no wish to interfere.
Also,  I've already argued this, but if any so-called  NS moment until now is to have meaning you can't claim that Naruto couldn't tell her Sakura his feelings. What were those so-called NS moments about then?



shurei said:


> Except, Naruto never said that he didn't care. He said, "This isn't about the promise"   As far as the latter with Sai's recollection, I'm not sure what the heck you're talking about. What mistake?   Sakura has hurt Naruto by relying on him and not doing a damn thing herself for the benefit of saving Sasuke. When left up to Sakura, she condemned him to death without EVER lifting her 'enduring love and faith but without too much faith since she doesn't trust but nevertheless it's grown to a  mature loving ass' to attempt to understand and help him out of the darkness. It's too much effort, killing him was the better option. Even now, what is Sakura doing to save Sasuke from the darkness? What?


Your own source says "this isn't about the promise". Sakura thought the promise was a burden on Naruto and was trying to relieve him from it, Naruto tells her than no the promise didn't matter. Even without it he would still be wanting to save Sasuke. He even says it again in the page after the one you posted "it doesn't have _anything_ to do with my promise to you".
Also has to be said that a confession would have no effect. When Sai told Sakura that Naruto "really loved" her, Sakura just cried and went to lie about her feelings for him. A confession is not gonna save the wreckage that is the NS ship.

And like I said, Sai recalled what he told Sakura as a mistake, and it obviously was. It's chapter 474. He tells Naruto he may have helped push Sakura into her current state of mind (wanting to kill Sasuke). And evidently he was wrong about everything he told Sakura: a) Naruto gave no f*cks about the promise and b) Naruto loving Sakura and being in pain because of it was just nonsense on his part (he himself admits that he didn't understand people and didn't know what was going on between Naruto and Sakura, so in a sense it's understandable); so he owned up to his mistake by telling Naruto what Sakura was thinking. 

Of course, in typical NS fashion, its supposed moments are just completely forgotten and help build nothing and Kishi would rather use panels to show Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and Naruto's for Hinata and viceversa; instead of recalling Naruto's supposed love for Sakura, so at the end this discussion is just giving meaningless moments too much credit. I mean, has anyone thought about how pathetic for NS is that Kakashi didn't give a single thought to Naruto's feelings for Sakura? And let's not even pretend that he didn't know.


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## Arya Stark (May 26, 2014)

The scene with Sai is something we all experience. The first love stings. And if it was failure, when you look back on it, you will always have that little ache in there. Even if you move on, find the love of your love, you will always feel that little heartbreak when you think about your first love. It's your first experience with opposite gender after all, and the first time you realize you are attracted to someone beyond friendship. And so it's special in it's own way.

I don't see it as Naruto keeping on hope about her. He's well aware where her heart lies and I'd prefer Naruto respecting her feelings.

Seriously there is nothing bad on Naruto's side. (considering his development doesn't include his love for Sakura, compared to other two girls) People get rejected, this isn't the end of world. People don't get married with their first love. You turn into Obito Uchiha or miserable like Jiraiya if you don't keep moving on.

I just don't know...For the first time in fiction, I'd prefer if the man respected female's choices and moved on instead of "proving himself" and "getting the trophy". Love and friendship don't work that way.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> Your own source says "this isn't about the promise". Sakura thought the promise was a burden on Naruto and was trying to relieve him from it, Naruto tells her than no the promise didn't matter. Even without it he would still be wanting to save Sasuke. He even says it again in the page after the one you posted "it doesn't have _anything_ to do with my promise to you".



I'm pretty sure that translation is completely wrong. A better translation is the Viz translation found here: (). I believe he actually meant that it wasn't just about the promise, and even if there wasn't any promise between them anymore he wants to rescue Sasuke for his own sake.  

Another thing I should add is that right before he let himself get beat up by Karui he was thinking of her tearful request to bring back Sasuke, so it should have been clear that the promise mattered a lot to him right before Sai declared that he was in love with Sakura. 


*Spoiler*: __ 










> And like I said, Sai recall what he told Sakura as a mistake, and it obviously was. It's chapter 474. He tells Naruto he may have helped push Sakura into her current state of mind (wanting to kill Sasuke). And clearly he was wrong about everything he told Sakura: a) Naruto give no f*cks about the promise and b) Naruto loving Sakura and being in pain because of it was just nonsense on his part (pulled out of whatever book he was); so he owned up to it by telling Naruto was Sakura was thinking.



He didn't recall it as a mistake in that "everything I said was wrong" but as in "maybe I pushed her too hard".


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## Arya Stark (May 26, 2014)

"Confession" is as cringeworthy as ever. 

And people think it's genuinely romantic...


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## Nic (May 26, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> "Confession" is as cringeworthy as ever.
> 
> And people think it's genuinely romantic...


 
yeah I never understood why some tried to call it genuine when it clearly wasn't.  Well then again it's a good thing that Naruto's confession for Sakura has been foreshadowed.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 26, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> "Confession" is as cringeworthy as ever.
> 
> And people think it's genuinely romantic...



Only diehard NS fans will defend that garbage ass confession.

Shit was completely unnecessary, both story wise and for both characters. 

Kishi was on some serious shit.


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## Scila9 (May 26, 2014)

^ I defend it. Sort of.

It was shitty, but I've read a quote of Kishi's saying that he was trying to portray an honest girl... yeah, he really sucks at this. I wouldn't have believed it at first but...

After rereading it I came to think she does really believe what she's saying about loving Naruto, and how he's always been there for her, and how she sees how awesome he is now, and blah blah blah. She's blushing there and does seem more honest than when she starts saying stuff like "Right! So you can give up on Sasuke now cuz I sure have blah blah blah" 



> Kishi was on some serious shit.


*nods* He was probably on something that entire arc


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 26, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Let's just admit that Naruto is selfless toward just about everybody. He is a considerate guy. When it comes to seeing Sakura hug Sasuke--he has seen it before, back in the Land of Waves


Which was the first arc in a series and a good deal of time and a lot of interaction takes place between then and the hospital scene after the Search for Tsunade arc. Like people are claiming Sakura's feelings for Sasuke grew from her early fangirling to "love", so did Naruto's feelings evolve from a crush to love. So yes, there is quite a valid reason for him to look so sad



> However, this time his attention is on _Sasuke_ and it is Sasuke's reaction to which he is responding. You may disagree, but this is the only reasoning that appears logical, as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have never been a surprise to Naruto and up until this moment he had never considered that Sasuke might actually respond to her. Naruto stepped aside out of respect to the feelings of _both_ of his team mates.


Its a gigantic stretch here to assume that Sasuke in that scene is reciprocating Sakura's feelings when he barely is reacting at all, having just recently come out of a coma. While Kishi can be sometimes subtle, to believe that he meant the readers to view that scene as "Naruto sees that Sasuke luvs her too" and thats why he looks so sad and is backing away is reading way too much into it.



> I'll believe it when _Naruto_ tells Sakura (and the readers) that he loves her.


He has, albeit indirectly. 




LesExit said:


> Anyone who thinks that early part I Sakura's fan-girling is proof of her loving him....is just wrong . Yes that's blatant evidence of Sakura have romantic feelings towards him, but those feelings did not progress into something deeper until later when she actually got to know him beyond," OOOooo look at that cool, mysterious looking, handsome boy in class who's super strong :33"


The thing is...she never got to know him beyond "OOOooo look at that cool, powerful, mysterious looking handsome boy". In her own confession she says that he never talks to her and we never see any real meaningful interaction between the two and given how Sasuke is, no we can't just assume they had a lot of off-panel bonding. 

The amusing thing is that I have accused Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as being a shallow, solely based on looks/popularity attraction and had people say thats not true as in the Ino and Sakura flashbacks she isn't even aware of his popularity or some such. Like theres supposed to be some hidden reason for her love when she can't even come up with anything positive in her own love confession. As much as I feel Hinata's feeling are not actual love just yet(but can develop into such if she spends more time with Naruto), at least she had good reasons for thinking shes in love with him and being drawn towards him. 

Its really disheartening to see several people believe that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are shallow yet they prop up Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, which are the only actual shallow feelings of the three. Especially when its NH supporters who do so, seeing as one of their pairings main scenes involves a talk where Naruto outright admits that he is wearing a mask, trying to appear stronger than he is, to not show his self doubt. Naruto may like to act silly but he has real feelings which come out when he feels the need to be more serious or when he fails to hide them. His pained look in the hospital scene, him crawling towards Gaara using his chin as its the only thing he can still move until Sasuke assures him that Sakura is safe, the PoaL, etc.  Outside of that, his feelings have the most logical basis for having grown past that of a crush, considering he knows Sakura much more on a personal level than either Hinata or Sakura know their love interest.




SoulFire! said:


> And Naruto's reaction when he sensed her distress in the last chapter wasn't placed there for giggles and grins.
> .


Naruto was sensing everyone in the entire world being put under the genjutsu. Thinking it had to do with Hinata specifically is really doing Naruto a disservice. Hers may have been the last panel before cutting to Naruto but the whole few pages leading up to his reaction were devoted to showing the Alliance being put under the genjutsu, all people Naruto cares for a lot. What makes more sense, Naruto reacting to Hinata being in danger or Naruto reacting to the entire world being in danger.


----------



## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

[





> TheWebbstir said:
> 
> 
> > ^ I defend it. Sort of.
> ...


----------



## Kage (May 26, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Its really disheartening to see several people believe that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are shallow yet they prop up Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, which are the only actual shallow feelings of the three. Especially when its NH supporters who do so, seeing as one of their pairings main scenes involves a talk where Naruto outright admits that he is wearing a mask, trying to appear stronger than he is, to not show his self doubt. Naruto may like to act silly but he has real feelings which come out when he feels the need to be more serious or when he fails to hide them. His pained look in the hospital scene, him crawling towards Gaara using his chin as its the only thing he can still move until Sasuke assures him that Sakura is safe, the PoaL, etc.  Outside of that, his feelings have the most logical basis for having grown past that of a crush, considering he knows Sakura much more on a personal level than either Hinata or Sakura know their love interest.


In addition to that...What's worse is even Sasuke's imaginary repressed romantic feelings for Sakura get taken more seriously.

Not to mention not running on a time constraint. If Naruto hasn't confessed (to Sakura. he's granted far more leniency with revealing his love to Hinata) by now it's because he never intends to but we can wait however long we need for Sasuke's romantic epiphany.

Naruto explaining to Sai that he can't tell Sakura how he feels because he can't keep a promise? That's old news. A lot has happened between now and then. *Proceeds to use Part I to "prove" mutual SasuSaku*


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## LesExit (May 26, 2014)

I just spent 2 hours with a math tutor...It was awful 


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The thing is...she never got to know him beyond "OOOooo look at that cool, powerful, mysterious looking handsome boy". In her own confession she says that he never talks to her and we never see any real meaningful interaction between the two and given how Sasuke is, no we can't just assume they had a lot of off-panel bonding.
> 
> The amusing thing is that I have accused Sakura's feelings for Sasuke as being a shallow, solely based on looks/popularity attraction and had people say thats not true as in the Ino and Sakura flashbacks she isn't even aware of his popularity or some such. Like theres supposed to be some hidden reason for her love when she can't even come up with anything positive in her own love confession. As much as I feel Hinata's feeling are not actual love just yet(but can develop into such if she spends more time with Naruto), at least she had good reasons for thinking shes in love with him and being drawn towards him.
> 
> Its really disheartening to see several people believe that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are shallow yet they prop up Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, which are the only actual shallow feelings of the three. Especially when its NH supporters who do so, seeing as one of their pairings main scenes involves a talk where Naruto outright admits that he is wearing a mask, trying to appear stronger than he is, to not show his self doubt. Naruto may like to act silly but he has real feelings which come out when he feels the need to be more serious or when he fails to hide them. His pained look in the hospital scene, him crawling towards Gaara using his chin as its the only thing he can still move until Sasuke assures him that Sakura is safe, the PoaL, etc.  Outside of that, his feelings have the most logical basis for having grown past that of a crush, considering he knows Sakura much more on a personal level than either Hinata or Sakura know their love interest.


Listen if they were shallow, she wouldn't care anymore. She just wouldn't care. I do personally have a few problems with how Kishimoto developed Part I Team 7, mostly with him and Naruto though. He could've done a better job showing, instead of relying on telling. The strong bond between Naruto and Sasuke seems to be pushing it to me, but Kishimoto makes in canon sooo whatever -___-

Hinata's feelings of genuine love for Naruto are the most clear of everyone. You don't sacrifice your self for someone multiple times just cause you like them. I don't know how  love could be displayed in a stronger way. All spending time with Naruto will do, is cause her to fall even more in love with him. Part I Sasuke wasn't an awful person, he did indeed bond with Naruto and Sakura. Sakura still loves Sasuke, because she can't let simply let that person she used to know fade away, just like Naruto. They both hope that they'll be able to bring him back, and team 7 will laugh together again.

By the time of Sakura's confession, Naruto is not hurt by the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke. He knows this, and has accepted it, expects it. He is hurt and mad that Sakura would ever think to lie to herself and him, by saying that she's in love with Naruto, when they're both aware of how strongly she feels for Sasuke. The one thing Naruto understands and knows about Sakura better than anyone, is things regarding Sasuke, it's how they both relate. Hinata knows Naruto very well, and actually Naruto her. All of their moments in this war have blatantly showcased this. You don't have to be around someone 24/7 to know them well. Unless you're talking about mundane things like their favorite juice or something XD

Sasuke's a much more closed off person, their was a brief time when Sasuke let both Naruto and Sakura in personally, but it ended. Sakura at least understood Sasuke well enough that not Naruto or kakashi, but she was the one waiting for Sasuke when he left the village.  

The most personal thing Naruto relates to Sakura on is Sasuke. Then they're on the same team so they're around each other, so they've had time to grow closer over the years since ya they are in close quarters. Yet then you have Naruto and Hinata who aren't in that lucky team situation, yet are still shown to have a strong connection to each other(reading each others eyes, and seeing through masks and stuff) Which to me represents a stronger connection between individuals.

*@Kage*
I don't think Sasuke cares about romance right now at all. Though whatever actions had transpired between Sasuke and Sakura, he thanked her for. I don't know why he would thank her if she didn't make him feel good in some way. That to me says their were some positive mutual feelings from both sides. I wouldn't say love though  So if that old Sasuke is able to come to the surface again, and he starts allowing himself the bonds he allowed in part 1 to form, I don't see why their relationship couldn't develop. I'm still not sure what this expected Naruto confession is supposed to be, and what more is supposed to change that would convince Sakura that she actually loves Naruto. 

-Naruto can't save Sasuke: Can't keep his promise to Sakura or satisfy his own desire to help Sasuke. Then confesses his love for Sakura, even though Sai already said Naruto had feelings for her? Don't get what would change.  lol Hinata
-Naruto saves Sasuke: Sasuke's "good"  and starts appreciating bonds. Naruto confesses. Team 7 is laughing together again, and Sasuke sits while Naruto and Sakura giggle and feed each other ramen next to him, cause it took Sasuke becoming good again, not evil in order for her to realize where her heart lies. lol Hinata

I honestly can't see how him confessing would be written well in any way. Though whats your best scenario. I don't like NS, maybe I'm being too negative  How do you imagine Kishi writing it?


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## Suit (May 26, 2014)

I'm personally kind of shocked at those who think that Sakura has gotten over her feelings for Sasuke. That just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. She was willing to love him even when he was playing for the enemy team against the entire shinobi world. 

If Sakura is still able to have feelings for Sasuke with all this, then... Well, Naruto is out of luck if he wants her (also, it probably would have been safe to detain her for the remainder of the war, considering she was in love with the enemy). I'm not using this as support for NH, but rather as a counter to NS. This is a shonen after all, there are no guarantees that there will be any canon pairings anyway.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 26, 2014)

@LesExit

I wouldn't say that Sakura's feelings are shallow exactly, more that they are based on an old selfish ideal of hers. Her confession demonstrated this selfishness perfectly. She thought only of herself and how she could keep him in the village. She made no real attempts to understand him then and still doesn't. A part of her still hopes that he can go back to the way she wanted him to be.

I agree that Hinata's feelings for Naruto are genuine, but how does she know Naruto all that well exactly? She doesn't talk about his dreams or his relationship with Sasuke or his relationship with Jiraiya or spoken to his father. She hardly knows anything about him. She knows that he was unpopular and weak like she was but fought that adversity and was drawn to him because of that. Her thoughts about Naruto are incredibly self-centered all about how she wants to be at his side and be strong like him. The way Kishimoto has presented her she's just a step above pairing fodder. She's a step above because she has actually influenced Naruto on occasion and had a decent side development with her cousin Neji. 

Yes the most personal connection between Naruto and Sakura does involve Sasuke. However, Sakura's desire to see Naruto become hokage has nothing to do with Sasuke. Neither does Naruto acknowledging and admiring Sakura's skill. Her fear and worry for him being a jinchuuriki has nothing to do with Sasuke. Naruto wanting to protect Sakura and vice versa has nothing to do with Sasuke. Sasuke is their biggest shared goal so that's why it's given such importance but it's hardly the only thing.

Sakura and Sasuke on the other hand have nothing other than being former teammates. 

As far as Naruto's possible confession. Sakura hasn't heard it from Naruto's lips for one thing and she may think that he doesn't love her after all. She may feel that she doesn't even deserve him. Also Naruto could make the confession fully expecting Sakura to reject him but being pleasantly surprised when she actually returns his feelings. Sakura could come to realize all the things that Naruto has done for her and all the times that she felt a bit more strongly for Naruto without fully realizing it. She could possibly see that Naruto was the type of person she wanted the entire time and that her sustained love for Sasuke was clinging to a fantasy. One possible scenario.

As for Sasuke who's to say that he will even return to the village? I have serious doubts that anything resembling Team 7 will ever exist again. Getting Sasuke to acknowledge Naruto and Sakura and their bond does not necessarily mean he will abandon his own dream whatever that is. He can be on good terms with Naruto and Sakura yet not share their life. He's certainly under no obligation to return Sakura's feelings.

And I wouldn't worry about Hinata. If she didn't sweat that Naruto made no attempt to return or even acknowledge her feelings after her confession, I don't think she'll be too upset if Naruto ends up happily with someone other than her. Besides there's always Kiba.


@TheRooMan

They should lock up Naruto too as he still has feelings for Sasuke am I right?


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## Kage (May 26, 2014)

LesExit said:


> *@Kage*
> I don't think Sasuke cares about romance right now at all. Though whatever actions had transpired between Sasuke and Sakura, he thanked her for. I don't know why he would thank her if she didn't make him feel good in some way. That to me says their were some positive mutual feelings from both sides. I wouldn't say love though  So if that old Sasuke is able to come to the surface again, and he starts allowing himself the bonds he allowed in part 1 to form, I don't see why their relationship couldn't develop.


He's never cared about it. I don't understand how an expression of gratitude is supposed to pave the way for something more when there's never been any indication of such. Sakura has thanked Naruto several times and it's seen for what it is. She appreciates I use this term loosely tho what he's done for her. Why is it different for Sasuke? Reconciliation with Team 7 doesn't guarantee an interest in developing a romance with Sakura.



LesExit said:


> I'm still not sure what this expected Naruto confession is supposed to be, and what more is supposed to change that would convince Sakura that she actually loves Naruto.
> 
> -Naruto can't save Sasuke: Can't keep his promise to Sakura or satisfy his own desire to help Sasuke. Then confesses his love for Sakura, even though Sai already said Naruto had feelings for her? Don't get what would change. lol Hinata
> -Naruto saves Sasuke: Sasuke's "good" and starts appreciating bonds. Naruto confesses. Team 7 is laughing together again, and Sasuke sits while Naruto and Sakura giggle and feed each other ramen next to him, cause it took Sasuke becoming good again, not evil in order for her to realize where her heart lies. lol Hinata
> ...


I'll let you in on a little secret..._I don't like NaruSaku either._

As such how it comes about will be awful to me as well but NH/SS is definitely not exempt from also happening in a way that's written terribly. I just sort of go 'wat' when there is apparently nothing wrong with wiping the slate clean so something like SS can develop properly but giving Naruto shit for wanting to let Sakura know what he feels about her. It's not a problem that Sasuke already knows how Sakura feels but rejected her anyway (this was when he still cared too mind you and "revenge" can't be an excuse to explain feelings that just don't exist) so the question of "what will it change?" in regards to Naruto confessing seems a bit silly to me.


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## Michael Senpai (May 26, 2014)

Zell, don't be a jackass 
This is a serious debate.


No but really, there's no possible way for SN to be canon, solely for the reason that it does not fit the genre, and it's not in any way a yaoi manga.
Take the trolling somewhere else please.

ANYWAY...


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## Arya Stark (May 26, 2014)

Nic said:


> yeah I never understood why some tried to call it genuine when it clearly wasn't.  Well then again it's a good thing that *Naruto's confession for Sakura has been foreshadowed. *



As l ong as Sakura loves Sasuke...


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## Nic (May 26, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> As l ong as Sakura loves Sasuke...



Well we all know she doesn't anymore. Besides Naruto has the power of plot behind him which is invincle.


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## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

> QUOTE=FlawlessVictory;50767194]@LesExit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Suit (May 26, 2014)

@FlawlessVictory: I thought about it, but the thing is Naruto has made it abundantly clear that protecting everyone is equal on his priority list to "bringing Sasuke back." Plus, Naruto has matured a lot, mostly thanks to Nagato, and is ready to do what it takes to take the hatred from the world. Sakura on the other hand, has NOT been convincing (at least not to me) enough to make one believe her loyalties to the rest of the shinobi outweigh her love for Sasuke.

Sakura has never been a "strong" character (in terms of convictions anyway) and Sasuke seems to be her number one priority at all times. 

Besides, they already tried "locking up" Naruto haha. Remember how that turned out?


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## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Michael Senpai (May 26, 2014)

Wow, is Sakura aware that she doesn't anymore? That's a huge surprise to me, probably to her as well.


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## Nic (May 26, 2014)

Corvida said:


> > [
> >
> > Have you told Sakura,?
> 
> ...


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## Kage (May 26, 2014)

Nobody knows what Kishi knows here. They just pretend that they do.


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## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

> Nic said:
> 
> 
> > Corvida said:
> ...


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## FlawlessVictory (May 26, 2014)

@Corvida

How do any of those pictures disprove what I just said?

Naruto saying that Sakura is his girlfriend to his dad is a declaration of love now? Sakura responding the way she did disproves that she may feel she doesn't deserve him? He was being an idiot she responded in kind.

She cried because she was hurting Naruto. She didn't recognize her feelings as clinging to a fantasy. She said it was because of Sasuke's evil that she fell out of love with him. She may not yet realize the nature of her true feelings for Sasuke. Also who's to say that she was lying when she said those things about Naruto? Her leftover feelings for the past prevent her from truly accepting him and he knows it.

Team 7 will laugh together again? Sorry that doesn't guarantee Sasuke will lead a life in the village when all is said and done.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 26, 2014)

she responded with anger .
She doesn't love Naruto romantically.


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## Corvida (May 26, 2014)

> [QUOTEQUOTE=FlawlessVictory;50768068]@Corvida
> 
> How do any of those pictures disprove what I just said?



Sorry flawless, coudnt resist-those comments of yours were the perfect  showing of the wonderful quality of sweated sock this por main and main pairing has-the overexposition and overused arguments are......


> Naruto saying that Sakura is his girlfriend to his dad is a declaration of love now?


And of the pairing canonzship, besides, , and offiicial wedding AND ALL IN FRONT OF DEAD DAD, seeing how seriously the full retarded scene was taken. Simply reread what you wrote"Naruto saying Sakura was his girlfriend-sort of-"and unless we asume our Hero is in the kindergarden or-ahem-he?s joking-what Sakura must imply, besides that Naruto is answering for her, with the Word ?


> > Sakura responding the way she did disproves that she may feel she doesn't deserve him? *He was being an idiot *she responded in kind.[[
> > ]
> 
> 
> ...


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## FlawlessVictory (May 26, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> she responded with anger .
> She doesn't love Naruto romantically, deal!



Correct me if I'm wrong but that's quite a common trait of tsunderes.

@Corvida

The scene could be taken as a hint for NaruSaku. Minato made a comparison to Kushina due to Sakura's violence. I'm not claiming canon but I don't deny a tease. Naruto was claiming a relationship status without her input. Sakura bonking him on the head proves she has no interest in him? No it doesn't.

Yes the girl doesn't always love for good reasons or recognize what she really wants. This trope has been explored in stories countless times. Why don't you explain why Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are so immutable and pure and never subject to change?

Yes because Naruto saying that means they literally have to laugh together for as long as they live.


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## Mione (May 26, 2014)

Sakura would be a Tsundere if in addition to the way Kishimoto has portrayed the Naruto/Sakura relationship in the manga he also showed some moments or hints of Sakura feeling romantic or none platonic feelings to Naruto.

The one moment she did. .  it ended up being a lie.

I always personally thought the biggest obstacle to the Naruto/Sakura relationship for their shippers wasn't Sasuke or Hinata but *Sakura* herself.


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## Nic (May 26, 2014)

The perverted jutsu scene where Sakura is admiring Naruto before realizing what his jutsu is and then hitting him is textbook example of a tsundere moment actually.


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## LesExit (May 26, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> @LesExit
> 
> I wouldn't say that Sakura's feelings are shallow exactly, more that they are based on an old selfish ideal of hers. Her confession demonstrated this selfishness perfectly. She thought only of herself and how she could keep him in the village. She made no real attempts to understand him then and still doesn't. A part of her still hopes that he can go back to the way she wanted him to be.
> 
> ...


Her shallow crush was the starting attraction. Though she quickly learned her idea of Sasuke was fake and so her feelings became something not based on those selfish ideals anymore. They became genuine. What do you mean she wanted him to stay in the village? You mean with Naruto? She was trying to kill Sasuke, because she wanted to stop him from falling even further in the darkness. Yes both Naruto and Sakura would very much like for Team 7 to laugh together again. 

Re-read the proud failure speech, the it's in your eyes moment, and the speech after Neji's death. None of those things are something that can be done from a person that does not understand the other well. If you don't think so, then we'll just have to disagree.

Yes I agree it's not. They're friends they care about each other, I expect nothing less.
Sakura and Sasuke very well had a special bond. We can agree to disagree on it though.

What difference would it make? What would Naruto say that would shock Sakura into loving him? Why would Naruto confess at all if he expected her to reject him? To put pressure on her shoulders or something? Sakura has already done all that. Sakura's confession is precisely why Sakura suddenly realizing she loves Naruto makes no sense. She knows all the good Naruto has done for her already, he's the hero, the one she can touch, the one who's been there for her. We all read her confession, and we all know Naruto's response to it. 

That's all possible. 

I don't think theres been any direct conversation of it(though some people say theres a panel that might show that, I'm skeptical though O___O) I think that the panel of him thinking back to her during pein when he rescued her during the war, was some silent message to her about it.
....XD kiba? Yes because theres been so much evidence of romantic development between Hinata and Kiba. Like Kiba teasing Naruto about acting tough in front of Hinata....oooo but maybe he's jealous. Maybe theres evidence after all 
lol no but honestly, Kiba would be so random. I'd rather her get with Tenten...they'd be cute >u>



Kage said:


> He's never cared about it. I don't understand how an expression of gratitude is supposed to pave the way for something more when there's never been any indication of such. Sakura has thanked Naruto several times and it's seen for what it is. She appreciates I use this term loosely tho what he's done for her. Why is it different for Sasuke? Reconciliation with Team 7 doesn't guarantee an interest in developing a romance with Sakura.
> 
> 
> I'll let you in on a little secret..._I don't like NaruSaku either._
> ...


I don't know man...that thank you was mad intense. It was all whispered, and the angle of it was all mysterious of his expression. That's some deep cinematic dramatization. That thank you meant something. I imagined myself as a hippie when I wrote that.

....good >u>

I agree. I hope Kishi doesn't screw up too bad. I don't recall a rejection. He thanked her. There was no thank you, but I don't feel the same. I think if he had feelings, he just choose to put those behind his goals. 

Oh. I still think it's a great question. Cause....ya I still have no idea what that would change o__O?


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## Suit (May 26, 2014)

Nic said:


> The perverted jutsu scene where Sakura is admiring Naruto before realizing what his jutsu is and then hitting him is textbook example of a tsundere moment actually.



Good point. But I must point out the fact that this is the first time she has seen him in over two years. Sakura had no idea just yet what kind of maturing Naruto did while he was away, thus there was a window for him to prove that he was now the kind of guy whom she could be attracted to. When he failed to do so, she went back to viewing him essentially as the "same old Naruto."

Admittedly, had he pulled off everything just right, the chance to truly impress Sakura and win her over (whatever would have done that, who knows) would have been successful. But he didn't and it didn't.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

I don't know why it's hard for some people to understand that the MP/MS translations don't imply a matured love. It just doesn't fit with the wording at all. Seriously how does "It's probably a different feeling" or "It's a different feeling now" imply a matured love? It's hilarious how people try to push this as a matured love despite all the negative developments that have happened for SasuSaku in Part 2. You know like... not seeing that person for years before they try to murder you? It's not even like she wants to save him from the darkness because she loves him like it was established in the Kage Summit arc. Now it's just a sense of duty.


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## sakuraboobs (May 26, 2014)

This sure is amusing.

So Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke anymore even thought it's been all over the manga that  she is - in fact few chapters ago it was reconfirmed. 

But somewhat she does have romantic feelings for Naruto when such thing never was implied neither by her nor by anyone else while when comes to her feelings for Sasuke aside of Sakura herself (chap. 4, chap. 181, chap. 540)  many others characters also said it. 

Ah! Kishimoto himself said it too, after the iron country.


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## Mione (May 26, 2014)

Nic said:


> The perverted jutsu scene where Sakura is admiring Naruto before realizing what his jutsu is and then hitting him is textbook example of a tsundere moment actually.





> "What about that wonderful feeling of* respect* I had for you just now?!! As if *I could feel sad that I wasn't grown up like you*"



Sakura's quote from that moment. She doesn't mention feeling anything that would imply an romantic interest in him, but rather an interest in his growth of character and a reflection of her own self during that time.

Kishimoto actually has shown that the Naruto/Sakura  relationship has matured and grown in that area. Sakura now does respects Naruto's abilities and has seen him mature/grow as a person. 

The hug after the Pain fight is a symbol of that growth and acceptances from that character to the other. 

Even still the author has decided to not show these two characters developing into a romantic way. 

Every time  an opportunity has presented it's self for these two characters to start  developing an romantic interest in one another the author has chosen not to portray it in that light.

The most recent has been the moment Sakura had gotten hurt by the enemy she is caught by Naruto. The moment between them is passed over with an "Don't worry Naruto." and her thoughts drifting to another man.

Joking moments between Naruto/Saukra such as the "girlfriend" comment from Naruto is the most recent argument I see in favor for this couple actually  happening, but it is a light comical moment that wasn't taken seriously by either Naruto or Sakura and is easily lost  in weight of other recent serious developments towards other pairings.


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## Kage (May 26, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I don't know man...that thank you was mad intense. It was all whispered, and the angle of it was all mysterious of his expression. That's some deep cinematic dramatization. That thank you meant something. I imagined myself as a hippie when I wrote that.
> 
> ....good >u>
> 
> ...



Hmm...I think that judo chop Sasuke landed on Sakura was way more intense 
Anyway, the scene did have a splash of dramatic effect but why not? he was leaving forever afterall but it ultimately changes nothing that follows. Sasuke doesn't look back, Sakura has little to no effect on him in the future. Not as a physical or emotional obstacle to his goals, not as someone foreshadowed to play a big role in his redemption, not as someone who feels a love that is paramount to conclude Sasuke's story.

Agree to disagree then. She confessed and his answer was to go far far away~ Hell, she only managed to squeeze out a "Thank You" because she decided to be extra desperate and annoying. Nothing about that implies _maybe under different circumstances_

What does it have to? If he confesses and Sakura's still like _lol no I luv saskay and he loves me now too cuz reasons_ then SS can ride happily into the sunset and Naruto can run into Hinata's arms just as planned. No one could dare complain about bad writing then no sir.

But if you're interested in my real answer Naruto can at least get it off his chest and proceed appropriately from there no matter the answer. Better to do so when shit's calmed down then during an invasion on your village or something.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> This sure is amusing.
> 
> So Sakura isn't in love with Sasuke anymore even thought it's been all over the manga that  she is - in fact few chapters ago it was reconfirmed.
> 
> ...



Ch. 540 is a re-confirmation of her feelings towards Sasuke but it puts them in a negative light and potentially questions the state of her feelings. I doubt she feels the same way towards Sasuke as she did in Ch. 181. If the MP/MS translations are correct for 675, I think it implies that she just doesn't like him as much as she used to. It's not that her romantic feelings towards Sasuke are platonic now, but they seem to be fading away.


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## Kage (May 26, 2014)

We speak not of this "negativity" in SS. We just pretend it's not there. Basically we pretend it's Naruto. Can't be taken seriously, is to be defamed if not just plain ignored at all costs.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> We speak not of this "negativity" in SS. We just pretend it's not there. Basically we pretend it's Naruto. Can't be taken seriously, is to be defamed if not just plain ignored at all costs.



"You still have feelings for someone that tried to kill you".

It really needs to be talked about.


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## LesExit (May 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> Hmm...I think that judo chop Sasuke landed on Sakura was way more intense
> Anyway, the scene did have a splash of dramatic effect but why not? he was leaving forever afterall but it ultimately changes nothing that follows. Sasuke doesn't look back, Sakura has little to no effect on him in the future. Not as a physical or emotional obstacle to his goals, not as someone foreshadowed to play a big role in his redemption, not as someone who feels a love that is paramount to conclude Sasuke's story.
> 
> Agree to disagree then. She confessed and his answer was to go far far away~ Hell, she only managed to squeeze out a "Thank You" because she decided to be extra desperate and annoying. Nothing about that implies _maybe under different circumstances_
> ...


It was intense. It better be addressed. It's not cool to go around trying to kill people. Sasuke was cray 
It's dramatic cause it meant something. Something that stopped Sakura from stabbing him. It's definitely something that can be brought up again, and given an explanation. So ya...just gonna have to wait on that one I think.

I'm ok with disagreeing homie . 

Cause, I see no other point in him making one otherwise. To just get it off his chest I might get, if his feelings for Sakura had been shown to be eating away at him or something. If Naruto knows Sakura loves Sasuke, which he does, I have no idea why he would feel a need to confess such a thing. Unless he just wants to guilt trip her like Sai did. I agree it's better to do this stuff when theres no invasion going on. I don't think Naruto's feelings are eating away at him, it's been shown that Naruto accepts that Sakura loves Sasuke, and he's OK with it. and he's got another girl who he likes and holds hands with and stuff, so it's cool  I don't think Naruto feels any need to confess anything.

 If SS does happen, I really hope Kishimoto doesn't go that route. I can totally see him rushing feelings, theres too much angst in the pairing for that. I think it should more be like scenes showing them closer, cause Sasuke's no longer pushing her away cause he appreciates his bonds now. The Team 7 reunion at first made everything seem all dinky dory(that's a saying right?) but theres some deep wounds there. They're all gonna have to rebuild some stuff 


Elicit94 said:


> "You still have feelings for someone that tried to kill you".
> 
> It really needs to be talked about.


I'd understand this great concern if the way Sakura acted upon her feelings was different. She knows Sasuke's intentions are unclear and that she can't fully trust him.
Just because she loves him, doesn't mean she wants to be with him as he is, if he's a bad person. Her most important concern is not getting in a relationship with him, but trying to save him from the darkness.  She cares about Sasuke, and doesn't like seeing him as he is, just like Naruto.

It is only when and if Sasuke is able to change back into that person Naruto and Sakura bonded with, that she would actually consider being with him. Not the Sasuke that tried to kill her O____O like...wtf that's crazy?? 
It sounds like people think Sakura's in love with the bad version of Sasuke, which is not at all the Sasuke she grew to love. Though bad version or not, it's the same person, and regardless of how dark he got, the fact that he was once that good person inside is what Naruto and Sasuke both hold on to and believe can resurface. 

Are they wrong? We must stay tuned I guess  (;? ロ?)


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## Kage (May 26, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It was intense. It better be addressed. It's not cool to go around trying to kill people. Sasuke was cray
> It's dramatic cause it meant something. Something that stopped Sakura from stabbing him. It's definitely something that can be brought up again, and given an explanation. So ya...just gonna have to wait on that one I think.


It isn't very cool at all and not very romantic either I'm afraid 

That 'something that stopped Sakura' has recently been touched upon. Sakura's _a kind girl_ remember? She could not cast Sasuke aside even though he tried to kill her. She still cares about him. She stil feels it's her duty to save him from darkness. 



> I'm ok with disagreeing homie .






> Cause, I see no other point in him making one otherwise. To just get it off his chest I might get, if his feelings for Sakura had been shown to be eating away at him or something. If Naruto knows Sakura loves Sasuke, which he does, I have no idea why he would feel a need to confess such a thing. Unless he just wants to guilt trip her like Sai did.


Well, It's out there as something Naruto planned to do and something he had a reason for not doing so why shouldn't he eventually get the opportunity? Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have nothing to do with his own and after that chap 3 bit he's been rather considerate of her feelings for Sasuke, regardless of his own, since. 



> I agree it's better to do this stuff when theres no invasion going on. I don't think Naruto's feelings are eating away at him, it's been shown that Naruto accepts that Sakura loves Sasuke, and he's OK with it. and he's got another girl who he likes and holds hands with and stuff, so it's cool  I don't think Naruto feels any need to confess anything.


It isn't eating away at him but that's because he has a life and ambitions outside of romance  He doesn't seem particularly enthused about the possibility of a romance with Hinata either but it's enough that he likes her as a person and appreciates her support. Not enough that when the word 'girlfriend' pops up he still associates it with Sakura though...



> If SS does happen, I really hope Kishimoto doesn't go that route. I can totally see him rushing feelings, theres too much angst in the pairing for that. I think it should more be like scenes showing them closer, cause Sasuke's no longer pushing her away cause he appreciates his bonds now. The Team 7 reunion at first made everything seem all dinky dory(that's a saying right?) but theres some deep wounds there. They're all gonna have to rebuild some stuff



I care not for hypothetical SS, only for what the manga has shown thus far and it hasn't shown good things. It's hunky-dory  Even still, I've already asserted that Sasuke reconciling with his old team doesn't guarantee an interest in developing a romantic relationship with Sakura and that seems the most probable when considering his character.


----------



## BatoKusanagi (May 26, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I'm pretty sure that translation is completely wrong. A better translation is the Viz translation found here: (). I believe he actually meant that it wasn't just about the promise, and even if there wasn't any promise between them anymore he wants to rescue Sasuke for his own sake.


Sure, wrong translation... 

Anyway, not even this translations helps you:
"But it's not just about that promise. "
This part might give you some hope, but then Naruto follows that up with:
 "Anyway, it doesn't matter... Even if there's no promise between us anymore."
"Cuz I want to rescue Sasuke for my own sake."

Promise or no promise, Naruto wants to save Sasuke. In other words the promise is irrelevant. Sure, Sakura will be happy if Sasuke comes back to the village, but to Naruto that's just secondary effect, what he actually cares about is saving Sasuke.  So, again, the promise wasn't an obstacle and apparently even despite it, according to NS, Naruto confidently claimed Sakura as his girlfriend in chapter 631.



> Another thing I should add is that right before he let himself get beat up by Karui he was thinking of her tearful request to bring back Sasuke, so it should have been clear that the promise mattered a lot to him right before Sai declared that he was in love with Sakura.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Well, dunno what to tell you now. I gave the chapter where Naruto states *TWICE* that the promise doesn't matter to him. If you choose to ignore his words, that's up to you. 



> He didn't recall it as a mistake in that "everything I said was wrong" but as in "maybe I pushed her too hard".


But everything he said WAS wrong. Clearly, it would stupid of Sai after the disaster in the Land of Iron to believe he was kinda right, but "pushed Sakura too hard". He was _totally wrong_ and admitted it.


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## BeBreezy (May 26, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Team 7 will laugh together again? Sorry that doesn't guarantee Sasuke will lead a life in the village when all is said and done.




It's number one on Naruto's to-do list. There's a good chance that this could happen.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I'd understand this great concern if the way Sakura acted upon her feelings was different. She knows Sasuke's intentions are unclear and that she can't fully trust him.
> Just because she loves him, doesn't mean she wants to be with him as he is, if he's a bad person. Her most important concern is not getting in a relationship with him, but trying to save him from the darkness.  She cares about Sasuke, and doesn't like seeing him as he is, just like Naruto.
> 
> It is only when and if Sasuke is able to change back into that person Naruto and Sakura bonded with, that she would actually consider being with him. Not the Sasuke that tried to kill her O____O like...wtf that's crazy??
> ...



When Kakashi is saying that her feelings towards Sasuke have changed, that includes her feelings towards the old Sasuke as well. Just because she is holding on to the old Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean that she still feels the same way about the old Sasuke.


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## Elicit94 (May 26, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> Sure, wrong translation...



Yeah, it happens a lot. He says the same thing as the Viz translation in anime version of the confession. It would make more sense for him to say that it's not just about the promise. It would be odd for him to say that the promise didn't have anything to do with bringing back Sasuke when he has always placed much importance on it.


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## ch1p (May 26, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Been there, seen all.Including the trascendental girlfriend proclamation in front of dead dad. She wasnt thrilled.Spanish trans was priceless



This right here. That troll moment destroyed every single argument as to why Sakura would fall for Naruto.

*Sakura doesn't know Naruto likes her?* Yes, she does.
*Sakura feels like she doesn't deserve him?* Yes, she does. 
*Sakura could realise all the things Naruto has done for her?* She already did.
*Sakura could realise Naruto's worth?* She already did.

Yet, Sakura doesn't love Naruto and loves Sasuke instead.



Elicit94 said:


> "You still have feelings for someone that tried to kill you".
> 
> It really needs to be talked about.



Yes, let's speak how morally outraged the ASS is. Because that matters when Kakashi, one of the pillars of this manga, had no outrage to give and punctuated his tirade with "you're a kind girl" instead.



BatoKusanagi said:


> Promise or no promise, Naruto wants to save Sasuke. In other words the promise is irrelevant. Sure, Sakura will be happy if Sasuke comes back to the village, but to Naruto that's just secondary effect, what he actually cares about is saving Sasuke.



Naruto's one moment of chivalry is always so misunderstood tbh. It doesn't help that he said that in Iron Country. However, one thing is clear, Naruto wants to save Sasuke for team 7, for Sakura, for Sasuke and for Naruto.

It certainly isn't because of the promise only, even if it's important to him (although I disagree for the reasons why with NaruSaku fans). He's not being burdened by it. Sai was wrong in his conclusion and Sakura was wrong in her insecurities, as Naruto and Sai himself admitted.



Elicit94 said:


> Yeah, it happens a lot. He says the same thing as the Viz translation in anime version of the confession. It would make more sense for him to say that it's not just about the promise. It would be odd for him to say that the promise didn't have anything to do with bringing back Sasuke when he has always placed much importance on it.



The irony here is that some were denouncing VIZ translation two chapters ago, but now you're using it to defend your point.


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## Elicit94 (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Yes, let's speak how morally outraged the ASS is. Because that matters when Kakashi, one of the pillars of this manga, had no outrage to give and punctuated his tirade with "you're a kind girl" instead.



It's more about how Sasuke's attempts to kill Sakura were acknowledged as something that should have changed the way she feels about Sasuke. Kakashi said that her feelings had changed, and that's probably the reason why it did. 



> It certainly isn't because of the promise only, even if it's important to him (although I disagree for the reasons why with NaruSaku fans). He's not being burdened by it. Sai was wrong in his conclusion and Sakura was wrong in her insecurities, as Naruto and Sai himself admitted.



He definitely felt burdened by it at the time that he got beat up by Karui. I guess after he had that conversation with Tobi it became more about saving Sasuke for himself and less about the promise. It's the reason why he would recall that conversation before stating that leaving the promise doesn't matter to him because he wants to rescue Sasuke for his own sake. 



> The irony here is that NaruSaku fans were denouncing VIZ translation two chapters ago, but now you're using it to defend your point.



I checked the anime translation (both subbed and dubbed) of Naruto's words during the confession and it was the same thing as the VIZ translation. I see no reason to doubt the Viz translation because of that.


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## Corvida (May 27, 2014)

> The scene could be taken as a hint for NaruSaku. Minato made a comparison to Kushina due to Sakura's violence.[



Yes, the violence, that?s the only clear common trait Sakura and Kushina seem to share-all the rest, from the ttebayo ttebane mottormouth    of speaking without thinking-that annoy Sakura so much-, the trademark Uuzumaki annoying loudness and energy, the chakra, and even the inspirational capacity of making believe that everything is posible, as Minato comments the next chapters when he has Naruto around him....all the rest, as Tsunade commented,her son inherited.

But as long as there?s someone that can whack maternally Naruto with a slipper  like a puppy when it doesnt use the newspaper, all is well with the world. Pass the How to train your Nardo texbook from clone to clone.



> [I'm not claiming canon but I don't deny a tease. Naruto was claiming a relationship status without her input. Sakura bonking him on the head proves she has no interest in him? No it doesn't.


The very first thing it proves it that she was instantly pissed off as in her better part one days, reacting as she always does when Naruto says something particulalry retarded .Without even vacillating or blustering.The vader face of doom was there as soon as por Naruto started to  be long in clearing dad?s doubts.After the Iron land drama, when all her intent was to convince messiah she loved him romantically to distraction
Such a tease.

And there was Naruto next chapter, making a mental note never, but never perster and   poke fun of Sakura chan ever again-he deliberatedly knew  those things annoy her to no end. 




> [
> Yes the girl doesn't always love for good reasons or recognize what she really wants. This trope has been explored in stories countless times. Why don't you explain why Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are so immutable and pure and never subject to change?




I dodnt need to- Those are immutable facts  defining Sakura?s character, as seen in Sai?s resigned sparknotes after her marvelous confession, and even two chapters ago whe she-is -still-seeking Sasuke care.   I have Word of God after the festa fiasco-Sakura is, literally.as   her creator says...surprisingly stubborn, as is Hinata. And the longer the girl resist to their shonen fate, kicking and screaming, or like fishes out of w?ter,the most horrid and comedic her illumination and glorious settling for silver medal will be.



> Yes because Naruto saying that means they literally have to laugh together for as long as they live.



Eeehhhhh-Yes? Shonene lawwls? Or they are only applied for Hero to get trophy girl


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## ch1p (May 27, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> It's more about how Sasuke's attempts to kill Sakura were acknowledged as something that should have changed the way she feels about Sasuke. Kakashi said that her feelings had changed, and that's probably the reason why it did.



Kakashi spoke of Sakura still having feelings for him and that she wants to save him from darkness, then punctuated with a favourable appreciation of her person. Enough with the mental gymnastics. I don't see the point of entertaining such thoughts. The narrative doesn't speak negative or positive of Sakura moving on from Sasuke either. There is nothing to talk about besides anti fans being outraged by this and that changes nothing in the narrative, so it's a point better suited for elsewhere, not here.



> He definitely felt burdened by it at the time that he got beat up by Karui. I guess after he had that conversation with Tobi it became more about saving Sasuke for himself and less about the promise. It's the reason why he would recall that conversation before stating that leaving the promise doesn't matter to him because he wants to rescue Sasuke for his own sake.



I don't see how Naruto felt burdened by the PoaLT, as there is no indication he ever looked at it negatively. He did think of it at certain occasions and as a source of determination, but it also came with other reasons like his own wish to get Sasuke back and to have team 7 back to what he used to be. In fact, by the time he did the PoaLT, he was already "burdened" (whatever that means) by all of this plus Tsunade's mission protocol. One more to the pile, as they say.

Furthermore and more than once, Sakura told him to either drop the promise or that they'd both get Sasuke back together (the final hospital scene of part 1 twice, the last chapter of the first reunion in part 2, another hospital scene in part 2, from the top of my head). If Naruto felt "burdened" (again, whatever that means), then he's feeling so for no reason. Like I said, Sakura told him to drop it, so it was fine by her if he decided to quit it altogether. Even if we assume he felt "burdened" because they had come to that joint agreement (and yes, Naruto remembers Sakura saying they'd do it together, so there is no excuse like 'he didn't understand what she said'), then him going on his own and telling Sai not to tell Sakura about what he was planning to do, is him already breaking the arrangements of the whole deal.

Naruto's denouncing of the PoaLT as 'not enough reason' was the trigger for me to start disliking Naruto and Sakura even as friends, because that was terrible. Naruto's chivalry towards Sakura's feelings for Sasuke was the only specific Naruto -> Sakura trait (I appreciate the crush antics for the comic relief, not because they're significant) that was admirable. So, I don't dislike your guesses or anything of the sort, nor do I ever felt they actually mattered pairing-wise (besides confirmation that Naruto accepts Sakura -> Sasuke is beyond his reach). However, canon is as canon was. Naruto told Sakura that the PoaLT mattered not for why he wanted to save Sasuke.

I'll give you the original script however. So do with it as you please.
ナルト「約束の問題じゃねーんだ」



> I checked the anime translation (both subbed and dubbed) of Naruto's words during the confession and it was the same thing as the VIZ translation. I see no reason to doubt the Viz translation because of that.



Oh I didn't say it was funny because of 'doubting translations' in a general sense. I'm saying it's funny because NaruSaku fans were complaining two weeks ago that VIZ translations have always been unreliable, because they translated so clearly that Kakashi said Sakura loves Sasuke (as the MP / MS translations imply, by the way) and that irrelevant Kushina 'find a girl like me' with 'don't chose the first that comes your way'. So to see a NaruSaku fan defending VIZ translations when this piece of entertainment happened just a couple of weeks ago is quite funny. Ironies of life.


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## TItroops (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Oh I didn't say it was funny because of 'doubting translations' in a general sense. I'm saying it's funny because NaruSaku fans were complaining two weeks ago that VIZ translations have always been unreliable, because they translated so clearly that Kakashi said Sakura loves Sasuke (as the MP / MS translations imply, by the way) and that irrelevant Kushina 'find a girl like me' with 'don't chose the first that comes your way'. So to see a NaruSaku fan defending VIZ translations when this piece of entertainment happened just a couple of weeks ago is quite funny. Ironies of life.




It's not clear at all since Kakashi said she lov_ed_ Sasuke in past tense according to those translations. She doesn't anymore.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 27, 2014)

@Corvida

Sakura has also been tender to Naruto. Sai himself makes note of this and you seem to take his word like gospel regarding her "fake" confession.  Violence in this situation doesn't rule anything out.

Naruto making a mental note not to tease her rules out any possible romance does it?

So Sakura's feelings are immutable facts but they are only ever really addressed by third parties. And never in-depth either, just that "she loves him." Yeah she's stubborn. Stubborn people can change. 

I find it funny you're bringing up shonen law when one of it's common tropes is one you seem so disgusted by.


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## BatoKusanagi (May 27, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Yeah, it happens a lot. He says the same thing as the Viz translation in anime version of the confession. It would make more sense for him to say that it's not just about the promise. It would be odd for him to say that the promise didn't have anything to do with bringing back Sasuke when he has always placed much importance on it.


I meant that at no point did you actually show it was a wrong translation, you simply gave another one which also doesn't support your argument. 



			
				 ch1p said:
			
		

> This right here. That troll moment destroyed every single argument as to why Sakura would fall for Naruto.
> 
> Sakura doesn't know Naruto likes her? Yes, she does.
> Sakura feels like she doesn't deserve him? Yes, she does.
> ...


You can add "Sasuke is evil so Sakura will choose Naruto" to that list. More recently the "Naruto will be dying/dead and Sakura will realize her feelings" argument was also debunked. 

Seriously, what's left? Can someone mention a single NS argument that the story itself hasn't debunked already?



TItroops said:


> It's not clear at all since Kakashi said she lov_ed_ Sasuke in past tense according to those translations. She doesn't anymore.


This has been cleared so many times that's there's really no excuse to still be confused about it. Anyway, Kakahi also says "*you still have feelings* for someone who tried to kill you". What's you excuse for that part?


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## TItroops (May 27, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> This has been cleared so many times that's there's really no excuse to still be confused about it. Anyway, Kakahi also says "*you still have feelings* for someone who tried to kill you". What's you excuse for that part?



YOu want me to give you an excuse when you cant even give me one about "you loved him' in past tense. Yeah..no


but for the hell of it, no shit she still has feelings for him, after all he was her comrade once.


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## ch1p (May 27, 2014)

TItroops said:


> It's not clear at all since Kakashi said she lov_ed_ Sasuke in past tense according to those translations. She doesn't anymore.



It is clear.



FlawlessVictory said:


> I find it funny you're bringing up shonen law when one of it's common tropes is one you seem so disgusted by.



It's not so bad if Naruto was shown to give 10% of the fucks about Sakura as Sakura gives about Sasuke or Hinata gives about Naruto. Considering he barely reaches 1%, yeah, it's disgusting.



BatoKusanagi said:


> You can add "Sasuke is evil so Sakura will choose Naruto" to that list. More recently the "Naruto will be dying/dead and Sakura will realize her feelings" argument was also debunked.
> 
> Seriously, what's left? Can someone mention a single NS argument that the story itself hasn't debunked already?



*Sakura doesn't know Naruto likes her?* Yes, she does.
*Sakura feels like she doesn't deserve him?* Yes, she does.
*Sakura could realise all the things Naruto has done for her?* She already did.
*Sakura could realise Naruto's worth?* She already did.
*Sasuke is evil so Sakura will choose Naruto.* Yet, she did not.
*Naruto will be dying/dead and Sakura will realize her feelings.* Yet, she did not.

I've always asked this. Before, people were keen on saying all of the reasons of the list above. There really is nothing left.



TItroops said:


> YOu want me to give you an excuse when you cant even give me one about "you loved him' in past tense. Yeah..no



 , .


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## Nic (May 27, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> You can add "Sasuke is evil so Sakura will choose Naruto" to that list.


not exactly NS fault that kishi has portrayed it that way for a while now to his young male readers.


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## Corvida (May 27, 2014)

> FlawlessVictory said:
> 
> 
> > @Corvida
> ...


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## LesExit (May 27, 2014)

Nic said:


> not exactly NS fault that kishi has portrayed it that way for a while now to his young male readers.


As people have already pointed out, Sakura's confession really destroys this argument. Cause she knows Sasuke's not a great guy


Then Naruto's reaction

Then this happened, and one might think this would send her over the edge.

Then she's left with these feelings



I don't know how her believing in them and having faith that everyone on Team 7 can have a happy ending, implies her moving onto Naruto. She knows Sasuke tried to kill her, but Naruto was able to give her back enough hope to believe again that perhaps redemption is indeed still possible
I'm not sure what the evidence is of her switching to Naruto people are speaking of. Nothing implies such. The last direct NS moment, further solidified this fact by this expression


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## Elicit94 (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I don't see how Naruto felt burdened by the PoaLT, as there is no indication he ever looked at it negatively. He did think of it at certain occasions and as a source of determination, but it also came with other reasons like his own wish to get Sasuke back and to have team 7 back to what he used to be. In fact, by the time he did the PoaLT, he was already "burdened" (whatever that means) by all of this plus Tsunade's mission protocol. One more to the pile, as they say.
> 
> Furthermore and more than once, Sakura told him to either drop the promise or that they'd both get Sasuke back together (the final hospital scene of part 1 twice, the last chapter of the first reunion in part 2, another hospital scene in part 2, from the top of my head). If Naruto felt "burdened" (again, whatever that means), then he's feeling so for no reason. Like I said, Sakura told him to drop it, so it was fine by her if he decided to quit it altogether. Even if we assume he felt "burdened" because they had come to that joint agreement (and yes, Naruto remembers Sakura saying they'd do it together, so there is no excuse like 'he didn't understand what she said'), then him going on his own and telling Sai not to tell Sakura about what he was planning to do, is him already breaking the arrangements of the whole deal.




*Spoiler*: __ 








He always felt very guilty of not being able to live up to the promise. I think because of this he was more inclined to take it upon himself (as a burden) to save Sasuke rather than cooperate with her as a team mate. During the start of the Kage Summit arc he decided to leave her out of the situation, probably so he could relieve himself of this guilt by dealing with Sasuke alone. He thinks back to her tearful request to bring back Sasuke before deciding to let himself get beat by Karui, so it's pretty clear that the promise mattered to him here. Sai takes notice of the fact that he left her out of the situation and refuses to let her know of his condition by thinking back to how he's not able to confess because he can't keep his promises, and comes up with the assumption that he is deeply in love with her, rightfully so.



> I'll give you the original script however. So do with it as you please.
> ナルト「約束の問題じゃねーんだ」


Can someone translate this?



> Oh I didn't say it was funny because of 'doubting translations' in a general sense. I'm saying it's funny because NaruSaku fans were complaining two weeks ago that VIZ translations have always been unreliable, because they translated so clearly that Kakashi said Sakura loves Sasuke (as the MP / MS translations imply, by the way) and that irrelevant Kushina 'find a girl like me' with 'don't chose the first that comes your way'. So to see a NaruSaku fan defending VIZ translations when this piece of entertainment happened just a couple of weeks ago is quite funny. Ironies of life.



Personally, I would say that Viz is right most of the time, but people are always going to pick the translation that best fits their needs. If the anime sub and dub version of the confession agrees with the viz translation, there's like no way I could be wrong about Naruto's words during the confession. Also, I STILL don't see how the MP/MS translations could imply that Sakura's feelings have matured.


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## Corvida (May 27, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 27, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I just spent 2 hours with a math tutor...It was awful
> 
> Listen if they were shallow, she wouldn't care anymore. She just wouldn't care.


So you are saying that it can't be shallow because of longevity? Thats pretty funny to me, especially with NH/SS's claims of Naruto's feelings being a shallow crush. 

IT MUST BE TRUE LOVE BECAUSE WHY ELSE COULD SHE POSSIBLY STILL FEEL THIS WAY AFTER ALL THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but thats just bad reasoning and bad writing. Not that I don't acknowledge the latter as already happening but in the writing, its still shallow.



> Hinata's feelings of genuine love for Naruto are the most clear of everyone. You don't sacrifice your self for someone multiple times just cause you like them.


So your argument is that self sacrifice proves her love as the most genuine and clear

Lets see:


*Spoiler*: __ 





]




Crawling on his chin to continue fighting until he is told Sakura is safe: SHALLOW
Doing a pointless kamikaze: TRUE LOVE

More then that, you can sacrifice yourself for someone you idolize even if you don't love them or if the love is shallow. Even if she didn't love him, her worship of him is on a near religious level and people have sacrificed themselves for less. Her putting herself in bodily harm for Naruto doesn't do anything to disprove her love as being shallow, sorry.

In the cases of both Sakura and Hinata a line from a good story I read comes to mind:

"There is nothing more dangerous than a woman in love because 1) they would always rationalize that anything they did for love was forgivable because it was well, "for love" and 2) whatever they did for love would always be in the extremes



> All spending time with Naruto will do, is cause her to fall even more in love with him.


It could cause genuine love to happen as admiration of someones ability to be cheerful in the face of hardship doesn't really translate to genuine love and a lasting relationship. 



> By the time of Sakura's confession, Naruto is not hurt by the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke.


Evidence of this?



> Hinata knows Naruto very well, and actually Naruto her. All of their moments in this war have blatantly showcased this. You don't have to be around someone 24/7 to know them well. Unless you're talking about mundane things like their favorite juice or something XD


Hinata knows how Naruto has influenced her and Naruto knows that shes strong. Naruto knows her about as much as he knows Chouji. 




BatoKusanagi said:


> Sure, wrong translation...
> 
> Anyway, not even this translations helps you:
> "But it's not just about that promise. "
> ...


This has already been debunked multiple times in these threads. Naruto's words in Iron Country about the PoaL are about his own desire to save Sasuke, that he would want to do it regardless of the promise or not. They do not however mean that the PoaL doesn't matter at all to him in regards to his relationship with Sakura.




> Well, dunno what to tell you now. I gave the chapter where Naruto states *TWICE* that the promise doesn't matter to him. If you choose to ignore his words, that's up to you.


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## sapikcan (May 27, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Doing a pointless kamikaze: TRUE LOVE


According to Sakura... 
YES!!

Like it or not, that pointless kamikaze saved the day. Naruto was helpless, somebody has to do something... Hinata did... and one way or another, it worked!!  And you may disagree with Naruto but he thinks that she saved him. 


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Crawling on his chin to continue fighting until he is told Sakura is safe: SHALLOW


Take Sakura out there, put Ten Ten and result would be the same.
Take Sakura out there put Sasuke and it would be like this..




Take Sakura out there put Hinata and it would be like this..



or this



or this





> Hinata knows how Naruto has influenced her and Naruto knows that shes strong. Naruto knows her about as much as he knows Chouji.


I dont think Chouji and Naruto can read each others eyes.


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## ch1p (May 27, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're stretching it.

Sakura doesn't speak of broken promises there, so this isn't about the PoaLT specifically. Yes, Naruto feels bad for disappointing Sakura, but he also feels like he failed Sasuke (if you bother to check the page before) and like he failed Kakashi (if you bother to check the page after), and yet he didn't make a PaoLT for either of them either. It's about how Naruto's deepest fear is to feel like he failed all of those that are important to him and Sasuke.

Like I said, Naruto's PaoLT is a very nice show of chivalry from his part (more than he has shown in all of part 2. he really used to be such a sweet kid). Naruto understands the pain of not being acknowledged by Sasuke and being abandoned by Sasuke. See, he's going through the same thing.

It has nothing to do with romantic feelings, which is what Sai got wrong and Sakura was guilt tripped into believing it was, and what Naruto later rectifies about him wanting to save Sasuke having nothing to do with the PoaLT.



> Can someone translate this?


It wouldn't hurt you to say thank you by the way.



> Personally, I would say that Viz is right most of the time, but people are always going to pick the translation that best fits their needs. If the anime sub and dub version of the confession agrees with the viz translation, there's like no way I could be wrong about Naruto's words during the confession. Also, I STILL don't see how the MP/MS translations could imply that Sakura's feelings have matured.


You don't see how? It says her feelings from chapter 3 to chapter 675 have changed. Surelly you can see that difference? Good. Now remember that chapter 540 establishes undoubtly Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. Add 1+1. Hint. It's not -0,5.


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## Dokiz1 (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You don't see how? It says her feelings from chapter 3 to chapter 675 have changed. Surelly you can see that difference? Good. Now remember that chapter 540 establishes undoubtly Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. Add 1+1. Hint. It's not -0,5.



Yes, her feelings changed. Into true love though? That shit wouldn't make sense no matter what. Their relationship has been all but negative since...ever.

Tell me, how the fuck can her love grow from Sasuke never talking to her(said by Sakura herself), trying to kill her 3 times, and doesn't really care about her said by SAkura herself again.

Not to mention, she doesn't even trust him.

But apparently we have to take that as her love being more mature or whatever, LMAOOO.


----------



## ch1p (May 27, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> Yes, her feelings changed. Into true love though? That shit wouldn't make sense no matter what. Their relationship has been all but negative since...ever.



Well yeah. You think her feelings in 181 were just a crush? Or that when Kishi implied in an interview that Sakura loves Sasuke was just him throwing sand to people's eyes?



> Tell me, how the fuck can her love grow from Sasuke never talking to her(said by Sakura herself), trying to kill her 3 times, and doesn't really care about her said by SAkura herself again.



Sakura's love grew during part 1. He was around back then.



> Not to mention, she doesn't even trust him.



Whether she trusts him or not is quite irrelevant to whether she loves him or not. One thing is not like the other.



> But apparently we have to take that as her love being more mature or whatever, LMAOOO.



That's what Kish's writing. You can like it or dislike it, but pretend it isn't there is ridiculous.


----------



## LesExit (May 27, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you are saying that it can't be shallow because of longevity? Thats pretty funny to me, especially with NH/SS's claims of Naruto's feelings being a shallow crush.
> 
> IT MUST BE TRUE LOVE BECAUSE WHY ELSE COULD SHE POSSIBLY STILL FEEL THIS WAY AFTER ALL THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Sorry but thats just bad reasoning and bad writing. Not that I don't acknowledge the latter as already happening but in the writing, its still shallow.


When you take into account Sasuke's current character, a person with shallow feelings for such a person wouldn't want to keep helping them for _their_ sake after all this time. They would've moved on. 




WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So your argument is that self sacrifice proves her love as the most genuine and clear
> 
> Lets see:
> 
> ...


It's not the only reason. Though clearly Hinata's display of sacrifice proved at least to Sakura that Hinata loves himHinata's feelings have never been represented as anything other than genuine. Or is it when she confessed to Naruto right before sacrificing herself, she wasn't sure of her feelings. She was just talking utter nonsense. Naruto's facial response to her words was out of the disbelief that she would lie to him like that, before throwing her life away!! 

I think out of all 4 characters the only one who's been showcased to have shallow feelings is Sakura>Naruto. I do think Naruto's feelings were genuine, though I also think Kishimoto has shown him to let those feelings go, and accept that Sakura loves Sasuke, and developing positively with another girl.


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> In the cases of both Sakura and Hinata a line from a good story I read comes to mind:
> 
> "There is nothing more dangerous than a woman in love because 1) they would always rationalize that anything they did for love was forgivable because it was well, "for love" and 2) whatever they did for love would always be in the extremes


Love indeed makes us do extreme things. It's a common theme in many stories. Love is a drug, and humans love getting high off of it >u>


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> It could cause genuine love to happen as admiration of someones ability to be cheerful in the face of hardship doesn't really translate to genuine love and a lasting relationship.


Genuine love is already there, I mean really I could accept this argument before chapter 437, but Hinata's feelings are manga fact at this point. So we can agree to disagree on that, cause I honestly have no idea how you could be convinced otherwise. They make each other happy. Is there a checklist you have that you to give people to tick off so they know whether or not they have enough to be in a loving happy relationship ( ・_・)?



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Evidence of this?


Every time, Naruto is shown to be upset during that confession has nothing to do with Sakura not liking him and everything to do with Sakura lying about not loving Sasuke, and being OK with killing him.


This is what Naruto is upset about. The village killing Sasuke, and Sakura being OK with it, cause he KNOWS she loves him.

Where in the time of all of this confession nonsense, does Naruto seem hurt over the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke? 
The only time after this when we see Naruto being what could be considered remotely jealous is after the Team 7 Reunion, when just like in Part I, Sakura was more focused on Sasuke, and Naruto was feeling all left out. So yes I'd say by the time of Sakura's confession Naruto is not hurt by the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke.


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Hinata knows how Naruto has influenced her and Naruto knows that shes strong. Naruto knows her about as much as he knows Chouji.


Which is precisely why he was able to read her eyes, and see what she was feeling, and give her back his own silent response with his eyes to remind her of her confession. lol Naruto doesn't know Hinata at all. He barely knows her name. They have absolutely no connection. All those intimate moments of Hinata holding Naruto's face while they gazed into each others eyes was platonic. Naruto grabbed her hand to give her a silent friendly thank you, and transfer chakra to her, while at the same time silently rejecting her since he knew she loved him. He smiled at her so she would handle the rejection better. After the war, Naruto and Chouji will probably meet up and take a walk in the park while holding hands, cause that's what friends who barely know each other at all do :33

Honestly. I have no idea how anyone can state what you just said. Kishimoto has clearly gone out of his way to show that they do in fact understand each other. I'm just going to have to disagree with you and leave it there.... (ー_ー )


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## Dokiz1 (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Well yeah. You think her feelings in 181 were just a crush? Or that when Kishi implied in an interview that Sakura loves Sasuke was just him throwing sand to people's eyes?



I do think it was a crush, her confession was all about me, me... and me  then she goes on to say he never really talked to her.




> Sakura's love grew during part 1. He was around back then.


 sure.




> Whether she trusts him or not is quite irrelevant to whether she loves him or not. One thing is not like the other.



Wow, loving someone that you can't even trust, it's a damn fucking first.


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## Hydro Spiral (May 27, 2014)

Nic said:


> not exactly NS fault that kishi has portrayed it that way for a while now to his young male readers.


Well, yes and no. I kinda agree on the _premise_, but Kishi executes the whole thing in this really..Bizarre manner...I mean usually the "bad boy" in those kinds of romance triangles is meant to be trashed. But here Sakura is a "sweet girl" for wanting to save him, and Naruto is this ideal messianic hero of friendship. And their bonds to Sasuke are..Meaningful. Its kinda messed up imo, so IDK about it unfolding in that fashion. 



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Hinata knows how Naruto has influenced her and *Naruto knows that shes strong. Naruto knows her about as much as he knows Chouji.*



Er, he basically learned everything about her history at the Exams tho o_O Apart from her feelings, obviously...

The Hyuuga Clan feud, her struggles for attention within the family, and even her beliefs about strength from her little "Proud Failures" speech. That's part of why he stood up for her, and others like her, against Neji. I'd say he knows her pretty well at this point.

Granted, its true they don't do a whole lot together.



Dokiz1 said:


> Yes, her feelings changed. Into true love though? That shit wouldn't make sense no matter what. Their relationship has been all but negative since...ever.
> 
> Tell me, how the fuck can her love grow from Sasuke never talking to her(said by Sakura herself), trying to kill her 3 times, and doesn't really care about her said by SAkura herself again.
> 
> ...


Gonna have to agree with that. I think Kishi just trying to say she isn't a squealing fan-child anymore.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 27, 2014)

@Corvida

One thing I would like to make clear is that I am not hung up on the hero gets the girl trope like you seem to think I am. First of all I usually dislike the main boy/main girl and or tsundere pairing trope. I'm actually far more similar in personality to Sasuke than I am to Naruto so self-insertion is also not a factor.

I actually didn't support NaruSaku happening until way late in the manga, deep into part 2. I saw it as a distinct possibility fairly early but was hardly sold on it happening. I'll be honest I never liked SS but I was okay with it happening up till a certain point. NH was okay up till Hinata's confession and the lack of any kind of follow-up from Naruto. 

First and foremost I like stories with good development. Naruto established his feelings for Sakura early on and they were only expanded from there. He proved his feelings were not insincere on several occasions. Sakura for her part grew in leaps and bounds in her estimation of Naruto, from outright loathing him to  him arguably being her strongest bond. For her part she has shown on more than one occasion that those feelings could be stronger than just friendship.

Sakura's feelings for Sasuke was established as a girl having selfish dreams about a boy. Despite the boy not reciprocating her feelings at all they grew stronger due to shared trauma. Her seeing the darkness in him and her fear of losing him. That was the start of negative development and it never really turned the other way.
She even noted that Naruto's resolve to save Sasuke was stronger than her own. 

To be honest Sasuke's ambivalence to the whole thing is the biggest sticking point with me. He's evil yadda yadda I don't give a damn about that. The murder attempts weren't great but he was psychotic at the time. If he had ever clearly shown that he felt about Sakura as more than just a friend I might be a cautious supporter of this ship. As it stands I see him being a trophy for Sakura for waiting all those cold, dark, years for her tortured prince to finally see the light. Yeah I said it. 

Naruto established an early friendship with Hinata but sadly it just hasn't really progressed into romance. Kishimoto has given them great chances but just hasn't capitalized. HInata's one dimensionality as a character doesn't really help things either. Besides I don't see why Naruto should fall in love with someone who only seems to hero worship him. Just my opinion of course and it has no bearing on me seeing the couple be canon or not. I've acknowledged numerous pairings that I've outright despised in the past.

Sasuke never gave Sakura hints like Sakura has given Naruto. Same with Naruto to Hinata. Naruto never thinks about Hinata in any other way than as a friend. You cannot say the same about him and Sakura.

So yes in the end I do want the hero to get the girl. Not only because he deserves her, but because he desires her and she has shown that she may be open to returning his feelings, much more clearly than Sasuke ever did for her. Naruto has far less reason to let go of Sakura than she does of Sasuke. As for Hinata Kishimoto has done a good job of making her a sympathetic character but here of late he's also done a good job of turning her into a pathetic one. Her single-mindedness of hers regarding Naruto is really grating and is turning what I once saw as a sweet but bland, innocuous character into an aggressively annoying one. So no I don't care what happens with her.

Now my biases and thoughts are laid on the table make of them what you will. Call me a liar I don't care.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 27, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> I do think it was a crush, her confession was all about me, me... and me  then she goes on to say he never really talked to her.


Dude!!! Sakura told him that revenge won’t bring him happiness, and that’s why she didn’t want him leaving. bbECAUSE HE’LL BE UNHAPPY. EVEN WHEN SHE WAS CONFESSING HER FEELINGS ALL SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WAS HOW SHE PROMISES TO MAKE HIM HAPPY AND HOW HAPPY THEY’D BE TOGETHER. HOW DOES WANTING HAPPINESS FOR SOMEONE ELSE MAKE IT ABOUT HERSELF? 

Plus Sasuke said he appreciate the moment he had with team 7. 



> Wow, loving someone that you can't even trust, it's a damn fucking first.


sakura may not trust his intentions, but she loves him like hella!


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 27, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> According to Sakura...
> YES!!
> 
> Like it or not, that pointless kamikaze saved the day. Naruto was helpless, somebody has to do something... Hinata did... and one way or another, it worked!!  And you may disagree with Naruto but he thinks that she saved him.


That has nothing to do with the point I was making and is irrelevant.



> Take Sakura out there, put Ten Ten and result would be the same.


I do hope you're not being serious in thinking that Tenten means as much to Naruto as Sakura.



> Take Sakura out there put Sasuke and it would be like this..


Naruto did use the Kyuubi's powers during that fight but I don't doubt that his weird obsession with Sasuke would lead to the same.



> Take Sakura out there put Hinata and it would be like this..


So you are suggesting that a Hinata that hasn't even yet given him the proud failure speech would evoke more of a reaction out of him than Sakura...

The idea that Hinata cannot be replaced by Kakashi, Sakura, Shikamaru, etc. as the one to get hurt in front of the pinned down Naruto and make him angry enough to release the Kyuubi has always been one of the funniest things the other side has tried to make a point of. 



> I dont think Chouji and Naruto can read each others eyes.


You and the rest of people do know that the ability to read someones eyes isn't some inherent thing that resembles closeness right? You can correctly read the emotion in the eyes of a person you do not know. Now lets translate this to Naruto, a character who can read peoples emotions well enough that he has TNJ'd half the villains in the series. 



LesExit said:


> I think out of all 4 characters the only one who's been showcased to have shallow feelings is Sakura>Naruto. I do think Naruto's feelings were genuine, though I also think Kishimoto has shown him to let those feelings go, and accept that Sakura loves Sasuke, and developing positively with another girl.


Well, at least you're not the kind of person who will delude themselves into thinking Naruto never loved Sakura for the sake of his supposed eventual love for Hinata to be propped up or so that they can deny their own hypocrisy when making the claim that Naruto would just be Sakura's silver medal. 



> Genuine love is already there, I mean really I could accept this argument before chapter 437, but Hinata's feelings are manga fact at this point.


I never said Hinata doesn't believe she loves Naruto or that she didn't have a shallow love for him. Thats not what I'm debating.



> Is there a checklist you have that you to give people to tick off so they know whether or not they have enough to be in a loving happy relationship ( ・_・)?


No checklist, just general standards. I don't have much problem with NH being the endgame. It will have had poor development in comparison to NS but it wouldn't be all that bad. Its SS that I can't remotely stand.




> Every time, Naruto is shown to be upset during that confession has nothing to do with Sakura not liking him


As thats not really what she is saying and/or doing. His reaction at first speaks to him thinking its genuine, then she starts saying that she doesn't even remotely care about Sasuke, which is a definite lie and is just out of the ordinary for her. That was his main concern. At this point in the series hes had over three years to mature and not be as hurt by it. I wouldn't expect him seeing Sasuke and Sakura embrace at this point would give him as much of a pained looked as it did in part 1 but it would still have an effect on him.


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## bluemiracle (May 27, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> Wow, loving someone that you can't even trust, it's a damn fucking first.



Its not really a first. It happens in real life and fictional world all the time. But even if it were a first it doesn't take way the fact that it is happening. Sakura does love Sasuke. If you want to be mad, be mad at Kishi I guess...


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## Scila9 (May 27, 2014)

bluemiracle said:


> *Its not really a first. It happens in real life and fictional world all the time.* But even if it were a first it doesn't take way the fact that it is happening. Sakura does love Sasuke. If you want to be mad, be mad at Kishi I guess...



I disagree. There's a reason relationships fall apart without trust. It's a requirement. If anyone believes they're in love with someone who they can't bring themselves to trust then they're thinking backwards. 

You don't fall in love with someone and then learn to trust them. You learn to trust them and then fall in love. There're a crap ton of other elements involved there, but we're focusing on trust right now.

It's like saying you can be in love with someone without respecting them. Doesn't make sense. 

I'm aware people in RL have this kind of thinking and it pisses me off a lot of the time. I'm surrounded by people stuck in marriages that mean nothing. There's no respect, no trust, and no love and it's so frustrating. Don't friggin marry a person if you don't trust them. And only say you're in love when that person makes you feel comfortable, safe (Hinata anyone?), and like you can share almost anything with them. Only marry them when they've become your best friend. Geezus. People throw the word around too easily these days.

I agree that Kishi is wack if he thinks this is how love works.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 27, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Dude!!! Sakura told him that revenge won?t bring him happiness, and that?s why she didn?t want him leaving. bbECAUSE HE?LL BE UNHAPPY. EVEN WHEN SHE WAS CONFESSING HER FEELINGS ALL SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WAS HOW SHE PROMISES TO MAKE HIM HAPPY AND HOW HAPPY THEY?D BE TOGETHER. HOW DOES WANTING HAPPINESS FOR SOMEONE ELSE MAKE IT ABOUT HERSELF?



That's why she said she would help him take revenge and to take her with him?


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## Kage (May 27, 2014)

yeah...not in a good place when trying to argue all the things normally used to *build* and maintain a functional, healthy relationship should come or just disappear _after_ the fact.


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## sapikcan (May 27, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I do hope you're not being serious in thinking that Tenten means as much to Naruto as Sakura.
> 
> 
> Naruto did use the Kyuubi's powers during that fight but I don't doubt that his weird obsession with Sasuke would lead to the same.
> ...


Ofc I m not saying Ten Ten is important as much as Sakura for Naruto. I m sayin that, in that scene, Naruto gave his best to save his friend. And it would be no different if that girl was Ten Ten. He would give his best just like as he did on Sakura. But in other scenes, we see really strong emotions which we never saw towards Sakura. Nobody can deny that Sakura is one of Naruto's best friends, and he deeply care about her but as i said, we didnt see that *"freaking out*" situations. Just last week she got stabbed by Madara and he gave the exact same reaction as Kakashi.


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## Scila9 (May 27, 2014)

^ He reacted to Sakura just like he reacted to Hinata and everyone going under IT. Exclamations and running to the rescue. Or in the IT's case _trying_ to run to the rescue. 

I'm not sure reactions to someone being in danger should be used as a measure of how strong anyone's feelings are. Particularly in Naruto's case. He looked like this after seeing a bunch of fodder comrades dead on the ground. 



He thinks of the entire Alliance as "nakama"

Going that route opens a whole can of worms for many characters. For instance, Sakura reacting to Naruto going 4Tails exactly like how she reacted to Sasuke in FoD, Naruto's reaction to Pein attacking Hinata, Sakura's reaction to Naruto dying and her giving him CPR...

... Gaara's reaction to Naruto dying, Shikamaru's reaction to Asuma dying... Do I even need to bring up Sasuke and Naruto? Ok I'm done bullshitting

Anyway, can't we all agree that anything like that just means the person cares and not use it like it's absolute proof of anything romantic? Cuz it doesn't matter how strong a reaction the person has, if they're a good-hearted person you can always claim it's platonic.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 27, 2014)

Trying to argue how Naruto would have reacted with a different character is a purely hypothetical and pointless excercise. 

If Naruto could scream "Sakura chan!" when she was attacked, the least he could do is spare an internal "Hinata!" if that is indeed who he was responding to. 

Looks like a case of convenient panel placement to me. I suppose the panels where NaruSaku and SasuKarin were paralleled is evidence too with that logic.


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## Elicit94 (May 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You're stretching it.
> 
> Sakura doesn't speak of broken promises there, so this isn't about the PoaLT specifically. Yes, Naruto feels bad for disappointing Sakura, but he also feels like he failed Sasuke (if you bother to check the page before) and like he failed Kakashi (if you bother to check the page after), and yet he didn't make a PaoLT for either of them either. It's about how Naruto's deepest fear is to feel like he failed all of those that are important to him and Sasuke.



With Sakura, he would fear failure when it comes to the PoaLT because she said that she trusted him. Sakura placed all her trust on Naruto when he made that promise, so he fears negative reception for not living up to it.  



> Like I said, Naruto's PaoLT is a very nice show of chivalry from his part (more than he has shown in all of part 2. he really used to be such a sweet kid). Naruto understands the pain of not being acknowledged by Sasuke and being abandoned by Sasuke. See, he's going through the same thing.




*Spoiler*: __ 







This also has to do with him understanding the pain of unrequited love. That's why he would have that pained expression before saying that she really likes Sasuke. Naruto was being very selfless here. 



> It has nothing to do with romantic feelings, which is what Sai got wrong and Sakura was guilt tripped into believing it was, and what Naruto later rectifies about him wanting to save Sasuke having nothing to do with the PoaLT.



With the Viz translation he says that it's *not just* about the promise, though, so I'm going to go with that. 

I don't see why he would consider the promise if it doesn't have to do with his romantic feelings, though. You can't say that he's just being a good friend, because it was already established that the promise was done because of his deep feelings for her, and it's clear that he still liked her throughout part 2. There's no other reason for him to consider it the way he does if he naturally wants to save Sasuke to get the team back together, and because of his own bond with him. 

He no longer considers the promise because Sakura forced him to drop it, though. That doesn't mean that his love for Sakura isn't true. 



> It wouldn't hurt you to say thank you by the way.



Sorry... I can forget to show gratitude.



> You don't see how? It says her feelings from chapter 3 to chapter 675 have changed. Surelly you can see that difference? Good. Now remember that chapter 540 establishes undoubtly Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. Add 1+1. Hint. It's not -0,5.



I highly doubt he would be thinking that her love matured, but rather that those feelings of deep infatuation for Sasuke that she had are not as strong as they used to be. I think that interpretation is done out of convenience rather than what is the most logical. It's just... no, just no.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 27, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> That's why she said she would help him take revenge and to take her with him?



What? First of all, Sakubabes just want him out of darkness.

Sasuke himself even said that, yes, he WAS happy with team 7. And YES, he knew what he was doing to himself (as in, breaking special bonds, causing himself loneliness and unhappiness) if he were to leave Konoha. He was perfectly aware of all of this, but he said his goal is in the darkness. 

They both knew it would hurt, the difference is Sasuke doesn’t give a darn about his feelings ‘cause it interferes and won’t help him with his goals while Sakura does give a darn about his feelings and his well-being. She rather have him be happy than succeed in his goals and be miserable.

I don't see hows that selfish. Wanting happiness for someone else!


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## Suit (May 27, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Anyway, can't we all agree that anything like that just means the person cares and not use it like it's absolute proof of anything romantic? Cuz it doesn't matter how strong a reaction the person has, if they're a good-hearted person you can always claim it's platonic.



I can agree to that. It's kind of difficult to tell what exactly the "argument" is now, but it seems to be whether character a's feelings for character b are platonic or romantic. Sakura certainly has come to accept Naruto much more than she used to, and I think, in a sense, that she even highly respects him. While she very clearly cares about him, the feelings just don't seem to be romantic at all (she certainly didn't want to be considered Naruto's "girlfriend"). 

On the other hand, Naruto still hasn't given a whole lot of hinting at romantic feelings toward Hinata either. However, he also has not given any clear rejection of Hinata, as Sakura has given to him.

That's my peace on "feelings." I'm more than willing to debate it in more detail if anyone wants


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## FlawlessVictory (May 27, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> What? First of all, Sakubabes just want him out of darkness.
> 
> Sasuke himself even said that, yes, he WAS happy with team 7. And YES, he knew what he was doing to himself (as in, breaking special bonds, causing himself loneliness and unhappiness) if he were to leave Konoha. He was perfectly aware of all of this, but he said his goal is in the darkness.
> 
> ...



Wants his happiness so that she could have his cock you mean? 

If she truly cared about his happiness she would attempt to understand him rather than just trying to become his girlfriend. The confession was primarily about her. Her feelings, her loneliness, her being unable to live happily without him. She says revenge won't bring him happiness then goes ahead and declares that she'll kill for him. What kind of f***ed up logic is that?


@TheRooMan

What is it guys? Was the girlfriend comment comedy or serious? Let's make up our minds here. It's comedy but her headbutting Naruto is a serious rejection? How about Naruto actually confesses his feelings in a serious scene and then gets rejected? I love how we take comedic rejection seriously but not any comedic romantic moments seriously like the feeding scene.


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## Kage (May 27, 2014)

She tried to appeal to his emotions first (using team 7, pain of loneliness etc) then she tried to persuade him with promises of happiness and 'fun' (lmao) then she offered to help him because if he had to leave she demanded he take her with him (her family and friends? nothing without Sasuke) and finally when all else failed she threatened to scream.

Sounds about right for a lovesick 12 year old girl.


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## sapikcan (May 27, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> ^ He reacted to Sakura just like he reacted to Hinata and everyone going under IT. Exclamations and running to the rescue. Or in the IT's case _trying_ to run to the rescue.
> 
> I'm not sure reactions to someone being in danger should be used as a measure of how strong anyone's feelings are. Particularly in Naruto's case. He looked like this after seeing a bunch of fodder comrades dead on the ground.
> 
> ...


I think u missed the beginning of the discussion. I even gave Sasuke example myself against WolfPrinceKiba's argument. 

But again the things you list are not even close to 6 tails.  

Not that it means he loves her but still... 

But seriously.. I see your point.


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## hannah (May 27, 2014)

Kage said:


> She tried to appeal to his emotions first (using team 7, pain of loneliness etc) then she tried to persuade him with promises of happiness and 'fun' (lmao) then she offered to help him because if he had to leave she demanded he take her with him (her family and friends? nothing without Sasuke) and finally when all else failed she threatened to scream.
> 
> Sounds about right for a lovesick 12 year old girl.



It's comments like this that remind me how well Kishimoto can write.


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 27, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Wants his happiness so that she could have his cock you mean?
> 
> If she truly cared about his happiness she would attempt to understand him rather than just trying to become his girlfriend. The confession was primarily about her. Her feelings, her loneliness, her being unable to live happily without him. She says revenge won't bring him happiness then goes ahead and declares that she'll kill for him. What kind of f***ed up logic is that?



Her care for him wasn’t because she expected him to love her back, that was the least thing on her mind. It was because Sasuke was hurting and I can’t see how that’s selfish??? hell, in the manga she even says to his face she doesn’t want to see him suffering.

she said herself that she was happy with their Team 7 days. When she was 12 she definitely felt sad that he didn’t love her back, but she developed over time.  Whether he reciprocated her affections or not didn’t stop her from being happy. For the majority of Part 2 when she tried to get him back,  she just wanted him back for his well-being.

And LOL. Nice try at misinterpreting my words!


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## Scila9 (May 27, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> I think u missed the beginning of the discussion. I even gave Sasuke example myself against WolfPrinceKiba's argument.


Ah, I did 



> But again the things you list are not even close to 6 tails.
> 
> Not that it means he loves her but still...
> 
> But seriously.. I see your point.



You just couldn't help yourself could you? 

Hmmm. I don't really want to argue a point cuz, like I said, reactions to people in danger shouldn't matter, but... I can't help myself either 

If Naruto hadn't become bros with Kurama I'm nearly positive we would have seen Naruto lose his shit again after certain moments in this war. Course, it's a ridiculous hypothetical cuz if Naruto hadn't become bros with Kurama then everyone would have died and Naruto would have been captured


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 27, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> Ofc I m not saying Ten Ten is important as much as Sakura for Naruto. I m sayin that, in that scene, Naruto gave his best to save his friend. And it would be no different if that girl was Ten Ten.


So you're saying that Naruto would put in 100% effort from anyone whose his friend, thats something that for the most part is true. Naruto is still human though(or at least was in part 1 before he became Jesus), so people hes closer to would evoke more of a reaction out of him., especially when his saving Sakura in that fight was given romantic context by the author. 

Though you yourself went against your own argument by suggesting that if it was Sasuke or Hinata in Sakura's position he would have had a stronger reaction and therein lies the problem. 




> He would give his best just like as he did on Sakura. But in other scenes, we see really strong emotions which we never saw towards Sakura. Nobody can deny that Sakura is one of Naruto's best friends, and he deeply care about her but as i said, we didnt see that *"freaking out*" situations. Just last week she got stabbed by Madara and he gave the exact same reaction as Kakashi.


So you are suggesting that Naruto cared more for Sasuke in the Wave Arc and for Hinata early in the CE arc then he did Sakura, his established love interest and you are basing this off of your own interpretation of the strength of his reactions and not the established text. I guess with Hinata it was love at first "I inspire you to fight asshole cousin whose ideals pissed me off" as at that time that was the only thing connecting him. At the start of the exams he thought of her as just a weird girl he saw in the academy and the only other interaction they had was her letting him cheat off her. Though maybe that was really the moment he fell out of love with Sakura and in love with Hinata. He thought to himself "That pick haired harpie *never* would have let me cheat off of her but this girl, she didn't even hesitate. I think this is what real love feels like."

I can totally see your point now. If it was Sasuke or Hinata in that scene, Naruto would have been chin crawling at mach 5.


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## sapikcan (May 27, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you're saying that Naruto would put in 100% effort from anyone whose his friend, thats something that for the most part is true. Naruto is still human though(or at least was in part 1 before he became Jesus), so people hes closer to would evoke more of a reaction out of him., especially when his saving Sakura in that fight was given romantic context by the author.
> 
> Though you yourself went against your own argument by suggesting that if it was Sasuke or Hinata in Sakura's position he would have had a stronger reaction and therein lies the problem.
> 
> ...



Let me try to be more simple. You said that "Crawling on his chin to continue fighting until he is told Sakura is safe" because he loves her. 
And I said: No, we have seen way more deeper and emotional scenes then that including Sasuke which i dont think Naruto is in love with him. 
Also I dont think that Naruto starts loving Hinata in part 1 but he shows great care for her.
Also I know that he has a crush on Sakura by the time.
Maybe the way i tried to show u this,could have misled you but all I m trying to say is mankaga have chosen to draw stronger emotional scenes (like freaking out 6 tails Naruto) with Hinata and Sasuke then with the ones with Sakura .


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 27, 2014)

sapikcan said:


> Let me try to be more simple. You said that "Crawling on his chin to continue fighting until he is told Sakura is safe" because he loves her.


Then you missed the entire point of the conversation I was having with LesExit(which you were quoting a response from), when she was arguing that Hinata risking her life for Naruto was proof of her feelings being genuine and not shallow. 

Please read the conversation you are responding to before responding to it, otherwise you end up not knowing the context in which things are said.



> And I said: No, we have seen way more deeper and emotional scenes then that including Sasuke which i dont think Naruto is in love with him.


To you they may seem deeper. I don't see how trying to move with your chin because the rest of your body is so weakened that you can't move it isn't superior to him just getting angry about Sasuke being hurt or a Naruto with a much more weakened seal whose already gone through a lot with his village being destroyed and being pinned down to be given bullshit lectures by Pain seeing a friend being what he figured to be killed right in front of him. Though thats just me.


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## sapikcan (May 28, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Then you missed the entire point of the conversation I was having with LesExit(which you were quoting a response from), when she was arguing that Hinata risking her life for Naruto was proof of her feelings being genuine and not shallow.
> 
> Please read the conversation you are responding to before responding to it, otherwise you end up not knowing the context in which things are said.
> 
> ...


Nevermind dude. You are right. Everybody in Naruto fandom remembers that chin scene in tears. That was one of the greatest scenes in Naruto. And nobody cares about Naruto getting 6 tails cause of his anger at all. Noone doesnt even remember that. im really bored of this conversation. It's really hard to discuss with guys who still has doubts about Hinata's love for Naruto and Sakura's love for Sasuke. I'm done with it. See you guys when manga ends.


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## Michael Senpai (May 28, 2014)

YOU CANNOT DISCUSS THE RECENT CHAPTER UNTIL NEXT WEEK.


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> Anyway, not even this translations helps you:
> "But it's not just about that promise. "
> This part might give you some hope, but then Naruto follows that up with:
> "Anyway, it doesn't matter... Even if there's no promise between us anymore."
> ...



Wait...what?

With this translation, it actually means that the promise mattered a lot to him until Sakura forced him to forget about it. He always wanted to rescue Sasuke for his own sake, but just because he also acts on other reasons doesn't mean that he wasn't acting out of his love for Sakura. What this really means is that because Sakura doesn't want him saving Sasuke for her sake, he's only going to save Sasuke for himself.

Even if you think Naruto only has a crush on Sakura, how would that even help NH? You know if he claimed that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend, it should be obvious that *he was not trying to be romantic* when he held Hinata's hand. Apparently, Naruto's silly crush on Sakura > any possible romantic implications that previous NH moments could have had. That's quite an insult.


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## SoulFire (May 29, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Wait...what?
> 
> With this translation, it actually means that the promise mattered a lot to him until Sakura forced him to forget about it. He always wanted to rescue Sasuke for his own sake, but just because he also acts on other reasons doesn't mean that he wasn't acting out of his love for Sakura. What this really means is that because Sakura doesn't want him saving Sasuke for her sake, he's only going to save Sasuke for himself.



Naruto was already determined to save Sasuke for his own reasons even before the made the PoaL. Out of consideration and care toward Sakura he made that pledge. Basically, he tells Sakura after her confession that truth--he has no problem dropping the PoaL but he won't drop his original determination to save his friend (and if the PoaL is no longer of consequence, why not go ahead and tell her of his feelings, eh?).



> Even if you think Naruto only has a crush on Sakura, how would that even help NH? You know if he claimed that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend, it should be obvious that *he was not trying to be romantic* when he held Hinata's hand. Apparently, Naruto's silly crush on Sakura > any possible romantic implications that previous NH moments could have had. That's quite an insult.



This all depends on how much faith one puts in those few panels intended for nostalgic comedic purposes set to lead into the return of Team 7. Even Hinata (if she even noticed) didn't take them seriously. Not long afterward we are given yet another view of that handhold moment, complete with a gentle, connecting smile and a squeeze of the fingers. Trumps a jumbled gf line and a whack in the head by a long shot.


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## LesExit (May 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> This all depends on how much faith one puts in those few panels intended for nostalgic comedic purposes set to lead into the return of Team 7. Even Hinata (if she even noticed) didn't take them seriously. Not long afterward we are given yet another view of that handhold moment, complete with a gentle, connecting smile and a squeeze of the fingers. Trumps a jumbled gf line and a whack in the head by a long shot.


I will never understand how one can think this:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Trumps this(not even gonna add the eyes moment): 

*Spoiler*: __ 










The difference literary-wise is so strikingly blatant. 


See the thing that sucks about manga, is this whole one chapter a week thing. People literally forget what in manga time happened like 20 minutes ago, and instead hyper focus on one thing in the present, as if it somehow negates everything that previously just happen, no matter if the previous developments were treated much more importantly. Note, authors tend not to write their stories chapter by chapter, they know what the bigger picture is and the outcome they want from the developments of their characters. It's your fault if you're reading in a chapter to chapter way. The development that Kishimoto has written between Naruto and Hinata, is not something meant to be forgotten about, it was not meant to be something to just laugh at and move on, like a certain other moment. It left lasting effects on those characters, and helped changed the dynamic of their relationship in some way. What way was it changed? We shall find out >u>


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## emachina (May 29, 2014)

LesExit said:


> I will never understand how one can think this:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I don't know Les, sure all those pictures of Naruto and Hinata looking deep into each other's eye, the cheek caress, the hand holding, the trust they both place in each other...sure that might imply romance to some people. But, come on, look at Sakura's face in the post you made.

The irritation, the irrational hatred, the uncontrollable violence, and the look of pure unyielding rage painted on Sakura's face. If that doesn't say: "When this is all over, I am so going to have your babies", I don't what does.

/sarc


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> This all depends on how much faith one puts in those few panels intended for nostalgic comedic purposes set to lead into the return of Team 7. Even Hinata (if she even noticed) didn't take them seriously. Not long afterward we are given yet another view of that handhold moment, complete with a gentle, connecting smile and a squeeze of the fingers. Trumps a jumbled gf line and a whack in the head by a long shot.



_Bullshit. _

The only reason you're debating said line "doesn't count" simply is because it doesn't play for the team you're trumpeting. This amount of confirmation bias is simply nauseating. 



> ven Hinata (if she even noticed) didn't take them seriously



 So you're basically admitting that you don't know if or not Hinata heard Naruto's comment, but essentially are going to assume she wouldn't take them seriously, if she did. 

Yeah...okay. 



> Trumps a jumbled gf line and a whack in the head by a long shot.


It does. The parallel was set up in 504 and then came full circle with Minato's comment. You're being purposely obtuse and trying to twist something that should be painfully obvious for over 600 chapters.

 This is a manga aimed at tweens and teenagers, yet you're looking for something deeper like every manga page must be scrutinized as if it's a CSI case, instead of taking it at face value. But hey, Sakura simply thinking about Sasuke should just be taken as is, no debates, no?   

Stop reading doujins and fanfiction. Hinata is pretty much irrelevant to Naruto's character in the grand scheme of things, where on the opposite end, that's the ONLY thing her character revolves around, which is fucking disgusting of Kishimoto, considering how much potential said girl had.


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## LesExit (May 29, 2014)

emachina said:


> I don't know Les, sure all those pictures of Naruto and Hinata looking deep into each other's eye, the cheek caress, the hand holding, the trust they both place in each other...sure that might imply romance to some people. But, come on, look at Sakura's face in the post you made.
> 
> The irritation, the irrational hatred, the uncontrollable violence, and the look of pure unyielding rage painted on Sakura's face. If that doesn't say: "When this is all over, I am so going to have your babies", I don't what does.
> 
> /sarc


You so right. Sakura may look incredibly pissed off and disgusted by Naruto saying Sakura is more or less/ if you're splitting hairs like his girlfriend. Though that's just because she's a tsundere, she may look mad, but deep underneath she was just embarrassed that Naruto would talk about their clear romantic relationship like that out in the open!

Hinata and Naruto holding hands, and looking into each others eyes, and even reading each others eyes implying romantic development? XD no! Kishimoto just needed to do this to finish Naruto and Hinata's relationship development. That handhold was nothing more than a friend giving another friend strength, which is all Hinata wants from Naruto, his strength and acknowledgement. Naruto is still super in loves with Sakura! That moment changed nothing at all between Naruto and Hinata. After the war, Naruto is gonna be with Sakura, and Hinata....dats what Kiba's for . Screw all the blatant build up of Naruto responding positively to Hinata's romantic feelings. People are looking to deep into that handhold! Though that NS headbutt moment makes it clear which direction Kishi is going.

I honestly can't take the NS pairing seriously anymore at all ( ・_・)


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

The girlfriend line defence force is quite funny. Literally NS hanging on by a joke.


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto was already determined to save Sasuke for his own reasons even before the made the PoaL. Out of consideration and care toward Sakura he made that pledge. Basically, he tells Sakura after her confession that truth--he has no problem dropping the PoaL but he won't drop his original determination to save his friend (and if the PoaL is no longer of consequence, why not go ahead and tell her of his feelings, eh?).



Yeah, he was determined to save him for his own reasons, but when he made that promise it was a way to deal with his love for Sakura. She was very hurt, and because of that he makes a promise between them for him to be committed to for the rest of his life, even if it means that he will never have her love.  It's this devotion and selflessness that he has towards her that proves that he is in love with her. 

Why he had no problem dropping the promise? The whole point of Sakura going there was to get him to stop doing things for her sake so he wouldn't have to hurt himself for her.  If it's Sakura herself telling him to stop going after Sasuke for her sake, why the hell wouldn't he drop something that he doesn't have to feel miserable about anymore?

Why he didn't tell her his feelings? He was pretty pissed at her, and he obviously had more important things to be concerned about than his love life.



LesExit said:


> I will never understand how one can think this:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



All of that "romantic development" is put to question when Naruto says that the girl he has always been in love with is "more or less" his girlfriend. It didn't even take more than 20 minutes after the handhold for the father and son duo to completely shit on NH. 



ch1p said:


> The girlfriend line defence force is quite funny. Literally NS hanging on by a joke.



Can you even prove that it was a joke? It sure as hell looked like he was legitimately thinking about whether or not she can be considered his girlfriend. Also, isn't SS hanging on NH these days? That's pretty sad.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

@LesExit

It trumps the NH moment because of Sakura's parallel with Kushina (connecting it to 504) and the fact that he just gave NS his blessing....at this point NH will only really become canon if

1. Minato dies again forever under the false impression his son followed his mother's final request

2. Minato shares a scene with Hinata and reconsiders

I honestly don't see a realistic scenario of either of these happening let's ignore the fact that Naruto still doesn't find romantic interest in Hinata.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The girlfriend line defence force is quite funny. Literally NS hanging on by a joke.


I find that hilarious considering you ship a pairing where both parties have tried to murder each other multiple times and male party gives ZERO fucks about her and legitimately think that it'd be a healthy and loving () relationship.


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Can you even prove that it was a joke? It sure as hell looked like he was legitimately thinking about whether or not she can be considered his girlfriend. Also, isn't SS hanging on NH these days? That's pretty sad.



It's self explanatory. Naruto says something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura has her face of doom and hits him in the usual comical routine, and the audience is "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade A fake smile).

The only ones who didn't laugh are zealot NaruSaku fans or insecure NaruHina / SasuSaku fans. And Sakura haters, of course.



Tom Servo said:


> It trumps the NH moment because of Sakura's parallel with Kushina (connecting it to 504) and the fact that he just gave NS his blessing....at this point NH will only really become canon if.



This is what I see every time I get this Sakura / Kushina thing:



You see what you want to see.



> 1. Minato dies again forever under the false impression his son followed his mother's final request



Pretty sure he got the message that it was a joke, considering the fact that... it was a joke.



> 2. Minato shares a scene with Hinata and reconsiders



You're taking this parental blessing way too seriously.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> I find that hilarious considering you ship a pairing where both parties have tried to murder each other multiple times and male party gives ZERO fucks about her and legitimately think that it'd be a healthy and loving () relationship.



Ahaha look at this guy so bitter about what I said.  I touched it where it hurts the most! NS is a failure, independently of what SS is or isn't, when fans are using a _joke_ (and worse, a mommy joke) this late in the game as one of its core pillars.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

1. so in other words you have no legitimate argument? Good to know.

2. No it wasn't a joke...Naruto actually had to think about it for a few seconds...hell they've actually been on dates before and they've only gotten closer since then, why wouldn't that be a logical conclusion to come to?

3. It honestly wouldn't make sense if Kishi were to have Minato give NS his blessing if he was planning on not following through with it or going with another pairing without contradicting it. Fun fact: Minato wouldn't have given NS his blessing if it crossed his mind that Naruto was joking.


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. so in other words you have no legitimate argument? Good to know.



My argument is that it's a joke and you lot are grasping at straws over a joke. Just like every single LeeSaku fan who thinks Lee's crush is a 'sign' from Kishi (I very much doubt any of them thinks this seriously). No offence to LeeSaku because I love LeeSaku, and I'm planning on wearing "something" soon as a set.



> 2. No it wasn't a joke...Naruto actually had to think about it for a few seconds...hell they've actually been on dates before and they've only gotten closer since then, why wouldn't that be a logical conclusion to come to?



It was a joke. The fact tht Naruto had to think about it doesn't invalidate him saying something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura getting her face of doom on and hitting him in the usual comical routine, and the audience being "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade-A fake smile).



> 3. It honestly wouldn't make sense if Kishi were to have Minato give NS his blessing if he was planning on not following through with it or going with another pairing without contradicting it. Fun fact: Minato wouldn't have given NS his blessing if it crossed his mind that Naruto was joking.



It's clear that Sakura isn't Naruto's girlfriend from her reaction. So if Minato is that stupid to think otherwise and give "blessing", then that's another matter altogether.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> My argument is that it's a joke and you lot are grasping at straws over a joke. Just like every single LeeSaku fan who thinks Lee's crush is a 'sign' from Kishi (I very much doubt any of them thinks this seriously). No offence to LeeSaku because I love LeeSaku, and I'm planning on wearing "something" soon as a set.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Which isn't a legitimate argument to begin with...

2. No...we see his face when he actually makes a joke like that and it looks nothing like that, the face he had on at the time wasn't comical. On top of that he said this to his father....his father who is only around for a limited time....Sakura getting angry at Naruto having said conversation with Minato in the middle of a war-zone is understandable. It was neither the time nor the place. The reaction was due to their relationship which is what reminded him of his wife.

3. Except she didn't deny it, her reaction wasn't a form of denial either it was a form of surprise and a desperate attempt to change the subject, given stereotypical tropes that's even more evidence.


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## Arya Stark (May 29, 2014)

*puts panel time, actual development*

*but his dad said this*

I dont think it balances lotsa that happened in war arc...


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

^ 632 Made it pretty clear he was at least just messing with her. It didn't exactly scream he was being super serious before.

To me this one page is the one that doomed NS.


"I just switched from Sasuke to you. They say a woman's heart is as changeable as the autumn sky, don't they?"

All the reason she listed before, all the good qualities of Naruto and all the negatives of Sasuke. All the parallels and parental approvement, the x00 chapters of development and any possible love epiphany theories. They all mean nothing when the story and Sakura herself say the only possible way for her to switch her feeling is by being fickle. That is the one thing Sakura has never been when it comes to the romance department.


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

All 631 did was remind people of Naruto's interest in Sakura (which does not bode well for any convinced he's in process of falling in love with Hinata) Naruto never does anything to "just mess with her" he simply lacks tact sometimes and doesn't expect the things he says or does to get her worked up so easily. 

Yes, between "fickle" and "miserable" the choice is clear in the romance department for Sakura.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> ^ 632 Made it pretty clear he was at least just messing with her. It didn't exactly scream he was being super serious before.
> 
> To me this one page is the one that doomed NS.
> 
> ...



Kishi himself said her confession was honest, yet surprisingly stubborn. The lie wasn't that she loved Naruto instead of Sasuke it was that she stopped caring about Sasuke at all...



Arya Stark said:


> *puts panel time, actual development*
> 
> *but his dad said this*
> 
> I dont think it balances lotsa that happened in war arc...



And the camaraderie panel time doesn't contradict the entire development of Part 2 you're argument just collapsed in on itself.


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. Which isn't a legitimate argument to begin with...



Yes it is. Or do you think Sakura fangirling over Sasuke is indicative of deep feelings? It was played for laughs, obviously it wasn't.



> 2. No...we see his face when he actually makes a joke like that and it looks nothing like that, the face he had on at the time wasn't comical. On top of that he said this to his father....his father who is only around for a limited time....Sakura getting angry at Naruto having said conversation with Minato in the middle of a war-zone is understandable. It was neither the time nor the place. The reaction was due to their relationship which is what reminded him of his wife.



They all have funny faces. You're trying too hard.

Why wouldn't Naruto joke around his father? He's not a particularly serious individual. This is the same kid who drew poop over his father's face in chapter 1? Perhaps he didn't know it was his father, but even back then Minato was his source of inspiration and at the very least a symbol of authority.



> 3. Except she didn't deny it, her reaction wasn't a form of denial either it was a form of surprise and a desperate attempt to change the subject, given stereotypical tropes that's even more evidence.



Lol 'she didn't say no'. What arguments does this remind me... 

Visual clues are more than enough for you to get a clue of what's going on. Sakura having that face and hitting him to go with it is enough of a refusal.

Desperate attempt at changing the subkect? You think they're dating? When did it happen? Since Iron Country arc? Good lord. 



Kage said:


> All 631 did was remind people of Naruto's interest in Sakura (which does not bode well for any convinced he's in process of falling in love with Hinata) Naruto never does anything to "just mess with her" he simply lacks tact sometimes and doesn't expect the things he says or does to get her worked up so easily.



Naruto may be interested but his interest isn't all that. It was never portrayed outside of shallow infatuation. Even Sai, the only one responsible for the only moment they're actually taken seriously, refered to Naruto's feelings for Sakura as 'suki' and at Sakura's for Sasuke as 'daisuki'.



Tom Servo said:


> Kishi himself said her confession was honest, yet surprisingly stubborn. The lie wasn't that she loved Naruto instead of Sasuke it was that she stopped caring about Sasuke at all...



He means the second part, where she states she wants him to go home and after Naruto dismisses her words as 'lies'.



> And the camaraderie panel time doesn't contradict the entire development of Part 2 you're argument just collapsed in on itself.



The development was platonic. Naruto's romantic feelings aren't hinted as deeper (the only time they do, they are said to be misunderstood later) and Sakura is only in love with Sasuke by 540, so anything beforehand is platonic.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> ^ 632 Made it pretty clear he was at least just messing with her. It didn't exactly scream he was being super serious before.
> 
> To me this one page is the one that doomed NS.
> 
> ...



And somehow the fact that Sasuke has repeatedly shown and Sakura has commented that HE GIVES NO FUCKS about her, is somehow "development" and will totally happen, is lost on you lot?That didn't doom the pairing at all? The fact that he tried to kill her didn't doom it at all? The fact that Sasuke hasn't shown romantic attachment to ANYONE didn't doom it at all?


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And somehow the fact that Sasuke has repeatedly shown and Sakura has commented that HE GIVES NO FUCKS about her, is somehow "development" and will totally happen, is lost on you lot?That didn't doom the pairing at all? The fact that he tried to kill her didn't doom it at all? The fact that Sasuke hasn't shown romantic attachment to ANYONE didn't doom it at all?



He's talking about NaruSaku, not SasuSaku. Do you always lash out by attacking other pairings when you have no answer to defend yours, or is it today just an exception to the rule?


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And somehow the fact that Sasuke has repeatedly shown and Sakura has commented that HE GIVES NO FUCKS about her, is somehow "development" and will totally happen, is lost on you lot?That didn't doom the pairing at all? The fact that he tried to kill her didn't doom it at all? The fact that Sasuke hasn't shown romantic attachment to ANYONE didn't doom it at all?


To my understanding being fickle is far more atrocious and therefore more damning to a pair.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Yes it is. Or do you think Sakura fangirling over Sasuke is indicative of deep feelings? It was played for laughs, obviously it wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. How you're even drawing that connection should be an interesting voyage of contradictions and paradoxes I'm sure, please do go on.

2. No first of all, it wasn't bos Naruto that was talking to Minato second of all, if he was joking he wouldn't say "more or less" nor would he take a few seconds to think about it unlike before

3. She said no when Naruto lied to Konohamaru, and she did it immediately

4. Her face reaction shows that she was surprised. Had she wanted to deny it, she would have done so. Especially since it was a conversation carried to his father unlike a conversation with a 10 year old child.

5. They were on 2 dates in the manga 3 if you count the movie written by Kishi, so yes like it or not they have been dating....How you come to terms with that will be your own decision.

6. So the entire fight with Gaara and the Sasuke retrieval arc was due to a shallow infatuation? lolno.



ch1p said:


> He's talking about NaruSaku, not SasuSaku. Do you always lash out by attacking other pairings when you have no answer to defend yours, or is it today just an exception to the rule?



That's the most ironic thing you've said all day.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 29, 2014)

The hand holding scene was obviously of greater dramatic importance than the girlfriend thing. As I've argued before it was the defining moment of Naruto's relationship with Hinata. Whether it was romantic or not is completely up to interpretation though. I think there's plenty of evidence to support that it isn't and I've already provided that evidence in the past. Also Naruto doesn't give Hinata's hand a squeeze. There's no sound effect to back that claim up. It's simply a close up of their clasped hands with Hinata's thoughts on how Naruto's hand is so big and strong.

The girlfriend comment scene while humorous is highly suggestive because of the context. It's not Naruto telling Konohamaru that Sakura is his girlfriend. It's his father for whom he has a great deal of respect. Sakura's reaction is typical Sakura. It's a callback to the Konohamaru scene. She reacts violently to Naruto doing something stupid. And Minato does not take her reaction negatively but instead remarks that Sakura is similar to his wife and asks Sakura to take care of Naruto. Now whether Kushina's last words to her son meant anything or not regarding him finding a girl like her, a direct comparison has been made by Naruto's father no less.

One more question to consider. Why would Minato ask if Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend? Would he just think that about any girl he sees with his son? It's possible but that can't be backed up. Couldn't it also be possible  he thought they had a special connection and he was asking to see if he was right? 

I've already said while this scene doesn't make anything canon it's an obvious pairing tease and a wink to the reader. The intent is not to make it clear that Sakura has no interest in Naruto. Whether that's true or not that isn't the purpose of the scene. If that was indeed the purpose Minato could have said something like "that girl reminds me of Kushina but I don't think she's right for my son" or something along those lines. Instead he gives a line that could easily be interpreted as giving his blessing for their relationship. It's classic NaruSaku character dynamic, love it or hate it, and a pairing tease. Of course it could just be a red herring meant to throw us off, but as I've already argued in the past there is much more to support NaruSaku than this little comical scene.


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> All 631 did was remind people of Naruto's interest in Sakura (which does not bode well for any convinced he's in process of falling in love with Hinata) Naruto never does anything to "just mess with her" he simply lacks tact sometimes and doesn't expect the things he says or does to get her worked up so easily.



But he did say he shouldn't turn against/poke fun of her or she'll hit him. Not sure how that doesn't say he did it at least partially on purpose to rile her up.



> Yes, between "fickle" and "miserable" the choice is clear in the romance department for Sakura.



 It's written that way and while paragraphs can be made discussing the writing, it's not exactly on topic. 



Tom Servo said:


> Kishi himself said her confession was honest, yet surprisingly stubborn. The lie wasn't that she loved Naruto instead of Sasuke it was that she stopped caring about Sasuke at all...



'I just switched from Sasuke to you." That was clearly a lie so how is Sakura being honest here?

EDIT: 





BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And somehow the fact that Sasuke has repeatedly shown and Sakura has commented that HE GIVES NO FUCKS about her, is somehow "development" and will totally happen, is lost on you lot?That didn't doom the pairing at all? The fact that he tried to kill her didn't doom it at all? The fact that Sasuke hasn't shown romantic attachment to ANYONE didn't doom it at all?



Wut? I never even mentioned SS. Whether Sasuke continues to ignore Sakura or not has nothing to do with the possibility of NS happening. I have no horse in the SS race, if it happens ok if it doesn't also ok.


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. How you're even drawing that connection should be an interesting voyage of contradictions and paradoxes I'm sure, please do go on.



Whaat does this 1. connect to.



> 2. No first of all, it wasn't bos Naruto that was talking to Minato second of all, if he was joking he wouldn't say "more or less" nor would he take a few seconds to think about it unlike before



Yes, he was joking around. Naruto's face, Sakura's face and reaction, Minato's face and reaction, are all indication that this is a scene which isn't meant to be taken seriously. Then there's 632 where Naruto says he won't mess around Sakura. It was a joke.



> 3. She said no when Naruto lied to Konohamaru, and she did it immediately
> 
> 4. Her face reaction shows that she was surprised. Had she wanted to deny it, she would have done so. Especially since it was a conversation carried to his father unlike a conversation with a 10 year old child.



You know, Sakura didn't say no when she was unscounscious during the Gaara fight. It was authorial intent, an obvious pairing tease and a wink to the reader , that she did not because she already was Naruto's GF back then too.

Sakura only loves Sasuke, as 540 established, she made an angry face and she hit Naruto for this comment. Clearly, she's not his gilrfriend and there isn't a reason why she would want to be his girlfriend (she loves another). It's obviously a no.



> 5. They were on 2 dates in the manga 3 if you count the movie written by Kishi, so yes like it or not they have been dating....How you come to terms with that will be your own decision.



Oh this is as good as the that desperate NH off-panel date argument.



> 6.



No shit.

EDIT:



> 6. So the entire fight with Gaara and the Sasuke retrieval arc was due to a shallow infatuation? lolno.



I don't see how any of these would be any different from Naruto trying to help a friend. Or is Naruto taking the Neji VS Hinata personally a sure thing about his romantic feelings for Hinata?

Naruto would have saved Sakura against Gaara even if he didn't have a crush on Sakura, and he would do whatever this is because I don't have a clue what's romantic from Naruto about Sasuke retrieval arc.



FlawlessVictory said:


> Also Naruto doesn't give Hinata's hand a squeeze. There's no sound effect to back that claim up. It's simply a close up of their clasped hands with Hinata's thoughts on how Naruto's hand is so big and strong.



Yes he does. .



> The girlfriend comment scene while humorous is highly suggestive because of the context. It's not Naruto telling Konohamaru that Sakura is his girlfriend. It's his father for whom he has a great deal of respect. Sakura's reaction is typical Sakura. It's a callback to the Konohamaru scene. She reacts violently to Naruto doing something stupid. And Minato does not take her reaction negatively but instead remarks that Sakura is similar to his wife and asks Sakura to take care of Naruto. Now whether Kushina's last words to her son meant anything or not regarding him finding a girl like her, a direct comparison has been made by Naruto's father no less.



It was a joke NAruSaku fans wax poetry about.



> One more question to consider. Why would Minato ask if Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend?
> 
> (...)
> 
> I've already said while this scene doesn't make anything canon it's an obvious pairing tease and a wink to the reader. The intent is not to make it clear that Sakura has no interest in Naruto. Whether that's true or not that isn't the purpose of the scene. If that was indeed the purpose Minato could have said something like "that girl reminds me of Kushina but I don't think she's right for my son" or something along those lines. Instead he gives a line that could easily be interpreted as giving his blessing for their relationship. It's classic NaruSaku character dynamic, love it or hate it, and a pairing tease. Of course it could just be a red herring meant to throw us off, but as I've already argued in the past there is much more to support NaruSaku than this little comical scene.



For shits and giggles. I laughed at least. Then again, I laugh at Karin being creepy too and I'm still ASK.

The intent is to make the reader laugh. You're doing walls of text over a joke.



> Would he just think that about any girl he sees with his son? It's possible but that can't be backed up. Couldn't it also be possible  he thought they had a special connection and he was asking to see if he was right?



I'd say any girl would do. Sakura isn't doing anything shipping worthy, she's healing him. Typical of NS though. Take completely platonic moments and spin them as romantic.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> 'I just switched from Sasuke to you." That was clearly a lie so how is Sakura being honest here?



The confession was honest, the switching wasn't.



ch1p said:


> Whaat does this 1. connect to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Was I expecting too much that you knew how to count? 

2. I literally just contradicted all those arguments go and read back and think of something new, Naruto was being general with that statement you are literally making a baseless assumption that he's referring to 631 its actually a call back to when he first saw Part 2 Sakura's strength against Kakashi.

3. When did I even bring up the girlfriend comment in the Gaara fight? Answer: I didn't.

4. Actually both the raw and mp leave it ambiguous, on top of that she wasn't depressed at first when she brought up the someone else. Kakshi's statement and Sai's statement during the war back this up. 

5. So you're in the denial stage...that's too bad

6. Gotta love how you didn't respond...GG? gg

Except the lengths he went through for her were more than he ever did for Hinata, he couldn't move his arms or legs by the end of the fight but was still going because he wanted to save her. Neji's ideals conflicted with his own and he looked down on him Naruto even goes out of his way to say this was the whole reason why he was trying so hard.


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> But he did say he shouldn't turn against/poke fun of her or she'll hit him. Not sure how that doesn't say he did it at least partially on purpose to rile her up.


If he's worried about getting hit riling her up is the last thing he would want to do on purpose. To say he does so intentionally is basically implying he _wants_ to be hit or at the very least it's not something he minds (because everyone likes to be punched every so often as hard as Sakura punches him cuz it's enjoyable right)



Njaa said:


> It's written that way and while paragraphs can be made discussing the writing, it's not exactly on topic.


she was running low on reasons for her bullshit totally inconspicuous confession and offered up that horrendous piece of logic so I'm not sure how much of it she actually believes herself (and by this I mean "fickle" being the only possible reason her feelings could change. Though I acknowledge she could very well be this fucking stupid but this goes back to discussing the writing in general so let's not.)


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It's self explanatory. Naruto says something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura has her face of doom and hits him in the usual comical routine, and the audience is "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade A fake smile).
> 
> The only ones who didn't laugh are zealot NaruSaku fans or insecure NaruHina / SasuSaku fans. And Sakura haters, of course.



Lol seriously? His face is supposed to look judging instead of funny. I guess it looks funny to you because of the way it's drawn. It actually isn't much different than how it's drawn in the sixth panel here:


*Spoiler*: __ 









I don't know how you can say he was joking if he was just trying to answer a legitimate question. How the hell would Minato even get the joke anyway? You know, maybe he was just stretching it because he really wants Sakura to be his girlfriend?


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> The confession was honest, the switching wasn't.



Sakura may even think everything she said was true, because TBH I don't think they're lies either. Sasuke was scum and Naruto was a hero. So nothing she says is fase.

However, Naruto called her a liar for switching her feelings from Sasuke to him. She doesn't love Naruto and she loves Sasuke. As 540 so painfully (for you) established.



> 1. Was I expecting too much that you knew how to count?



I have more than 6 paragraphs in that post. In this case, it could have meant the first paragraph or the second, so IDK. Can you count?



> 2. I literally just contradicted all those arguments go and read back and think of something new, Naruto was being general with that statement you are literally making a baseless assumption that he's referring to 631 its actually a call back to when he first saw Part 2 Sakura's strength against Kakashi.



No, you didn't contradict anything. It was a joke. The fact tht Naruto had to think about it doesn't invalidate him saying something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura getting her face of doom on and hitting him in the usual comical routine, and the audience being "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade-A fake smile). I'm copy pasting because you're dismissing all of this with fanfic.



> 3. When did I even bring up the girlfriend comment in the Gaara fight? Answer: I didn't.



You're not the only one talking here. I can bring whatever I feel like bringing.



> q4. Actually both the raw and mp leave it ambiguous, on top of that she wasn't depressed at first when she brought up the someone else. Kakshi's statement and Sai's statement during the war back this up.



It isn't ambiguous at all. 



> 5. So you're in the denial stage...that's too bad



Stop staring at the mirror. 



> 6. Gotta love how you didn't respond...GG? gg



More like, you submitted the post without finishing the setence and i had already quoted it before you edited it. I still have the tab open with the blank 6. if you'd like proof of that.  It's fine though, I did answer when I saw you edited.



> Except the lengths he went through for her were more than he ever did for Hinata, he couldn't move his arms or legs by the end of the fight but was still going because he wanted to save her. Neji's ideals conflicted with his own and he looked down on him Naruto even goes out of his way to say this was the whole reason why he was trying so hard.



Lawl, Naruto would do everything he could for his friends. He did it for Gaara and for Saske, but he's not in love with them.



Elicit94 said:


> Lol seriously? His face is supposed to look judging instead of funny. I guess it looks funny to you because of the way it's drawn. It actually isn't much different than how it's drawn in the sixth panel here:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Oh this fanfic just keeps appearing.  It was a joke. The fact that Naruto had to think about it doesn't invalidate him saying something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura getting her face of doom on and hitting him in the usual comical routine, and the audience being "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade-A fake smile). Then 632 has Naruto saying he wont mess around with Sakura anymore.


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## Tom Servo (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Sakura may even think everything she said was true, because TBH I don't think they're lies either. Sasuke was scum and Naruto was a hero. So nothing she says is fase.
> 
> However, Naruto called her a liar for switching her feelings from Sasuke to him. She doesn't love Naruto and she loves Sasuke. As 540 so painfully (for you) established.
> 
> ...



1. No he said she was lying to herself and that was about switching not about the confession. Thinking of someone who she used to like who tried to kill her surrounded by flames and makes her depressed isn't really a convincing form of love.

2. Obviously I meant the first because I put "1"

3. I countered that argument with the very next response try coming up with a contradiction rather than repeating the same argument.

4. Actually it is "If its somebody you love then they're bound to be a great person" this isn't true because out of the 2 people she loves one of them is a psychopath

5. That comeback would probably work better if I wasn't using a computer.

6. And there goes yet another argument of yours down the drain.


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## Corvida (May 29, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. No he said she was lying to herself and that was about switching not about the confession. Thinking of someone who she used to like who tried to kill her surrounded by flames and makes her depressed isn't really a convincing form of love.



Like I said you see what you want to see. 675 is also 'ambiguous', even though the translators have said it's not at all ambiguous.



> 2. Obviously I meant the first because I put "1"



Then what about the second paragrah? You put 2. on the third paragraph. You don't know to count.



> 3. I countered that argument with the very next response try coming up with a contradiction rather than repeating the same argument.



You're not countering the argument. You're writing fanfic about how Sakura looks surprised and she didn't deny it, when Sakura looks angry and she did deny it by clearly showing a negative response.



> 4. Actually it is "If its somebody you love then they're bound to be a great person" this isn't true because out of the 2 people she loves one of them is a psychopath



AHAHAHAAH.  Naruto being part of that scene _never happened_.
 You want me to believe she thinks of him off-panel or that showing Naruto wasn't importanat? I take it back what I said, this is worse than the NH off-panel ramen date! At least that was a theory and proposed as a theory!



> 5. That comeback would probably work better if I wasn't using a computer.



I'm sure the room you're in has more things in it then your computer.



> 6. And there goes yet another argument of yours down the drain.



Since you can't F5 to see my edit, here it goes.

I don't see how any of these would be any different from Naruto trying to help a friend. Or is Naruto taking the Neji VS Hinata personally a sure thing about his romantic feelings for Hinata? Naruto would have saved Sakura against Gaara even if he didn't have a crush on Sakura, and he would do whatever this is because I don't have a clue what's romantic from Naruto about Sasuke retrieval arc. Lawl, Naruto would do everything he could for his friends. He did it for Gaara and for Saske, but he's not in love with them.



Corvida said:


> Oh not exactly,  Kage hon-She can be Both ath the Same Time. She could. She was-She will be again.
> 
> Can you hear the sweetest sound
> 
> ...



This time! I swear it will be this _time_!




> Because love fodder hadnt innocently reminded her of Sasuke?s state.



It happened off screen.

Or in a fanfic near you.


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

Tom Servo said:


> The confession was honest, the switching wasn't.



Well factually the good points about Naruto and negatives about Sasuke were true, but the changing feelings were not. I just fail to see how it can be pro NS.



Kage said:


> If he's worried about getting hit riling her up is the last thing he would want to do on purpose. To say he does so intentionally is basically implying he _wants_ to be hit or at the very least it's not something he minds (because everyone likes to be punched every so often as hard as Sakura punches him cuz it's enjoyable right)



Not so much about being worried about being hit but rather being reminded what Sakura is capable of when she lets loose. That pissing her off is not the best idea. Though he has teased her in the past and it didn't always ended in a smack.


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## Corvida (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Not so much about being worried about being hit but rather being reminded what Sakura is capable of when she lets loose. That pissing her off is not the best idea. Though he has teased her in the past and it didn't always ended in a smack.



Dont think too much about it-The panel of Naruto with comical face thinking-memomo to me-never, but never  never never poke fun  of-pester(Spanish versi?n)Sakura chan  *again* or she?ll reduce  me to a stain shows  Naruto perfectly knew what he had done, but comical reactions or not, he?s particularly...resistant to Sakura?s comical punishment.



He was heartbroken  by the headbutt, by the way.

And he confessing in front of dead dad!








> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FlawlessVictory (May 29, 2014)

@ch1p

Being dismissive of someone's analysis is not debating. Address the points rather than just claiming "it's a joke lol" and ignoring the argument. Is it because you don't actually have a counter argument? I could easily simplify every single NaruHina argument yet I carefully address the points people make out of respect for them and the act of debating.

You claim the girlfriend scene is just for random laughs yet some people, (I'm not sure if you have) are trying to claim it as undeniable proof that Sakura hates the idea of being in a relationship with Naruto. Also the fact that you just can't possibly see it as a possible pairing tease is perplexing. Are you that obtuse or are you just being disingenuous?

Also ever heard the saying, "It's funny because it's true?"

Why do you think any girl would do? What do you consider shipping worthy? I never said the scene was romantic.

Movement lines do not indicate a squeeze. That could be when he's about to let go of her hand. Also the drawing looks exactly the same as when he was loosely holding it. A sound effect would be needed to prove he was squeezing her fingers.


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> ^ 632 Made it pretty clear he was at least just messing with her. It didn't exactly scream he was being super serious before.


Lol, this is retarded. That comment on Sakura's strength had absolutely nothing to do with his girlfriend comment. It has to do with how he always acted perverted in front of her and would occasionally poke fun of her strength. This interpretation is just... desperate.


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Not so much about being worried about being hit but rather being reminded what Sakura is capable of when she lets loose. That pissing her off is not the best idea. Though he has teased her in the past and it didn't always ended in a smack.



Except his reaction is a near replica of Naruto reuniting with his team (sans Sasuke) at the very beginning of the time-skip

*Spoiler*: __ 







this does not deter any future attempts at flirting or "messing around with" by flirting regardless of how probable an actual punch would be (why risk it at all)




to have a similar scene (replacing Kakashi with Sasuke) in a chapter meant to push the idea of team seven sort of paints a picture of where that was meant to go.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 29, 2014)

^
Exactly. It's Kishi's goofy way of having Naruto acknowledge Sakura's strength and growth. 

No he's actually deathly afraid of ticking off Sakura again. Who wants to make a bet that he's going to do something to piss her off again and she's going to hit him before the end of this manga? I'd say the odds are pretty good.


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Oh this fanfic just keeps appearing.  It was a joke. The fact that Naruto had to think about it doesn't invalidate him saying something stupid (and with his face looking funny too), Sakura getting her face of doom on and hitting him in the usual comical routine, and the audience being "disturbed" (Minato's sweatdropping and having that grade-A fake smile). Then 632 has Naruto saying he wont mess around with Sakura anymore.



How would it even help NH if was a joke? If he would joke about it, it would still mean that he does it because he really wants her to be his girlfriend, and *it would still mean that he was not trying to be romantic when he held Hinata's hand*. Joke or not, you lose.


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Lol, this is retarded. That comment on Sakura's strength had absolutely nothing to do with his girlfriend comment. It has to do with how he always acted perverted in front of her and would occasionally poke fun of her strength. This interpretation is just... desperate.



I've had this discussion before about this in this very thread. Anyway, the reason Sakura hit him in the first place was because he claimed they were gf/bf. There is no separation of him being afraid of her strenght and his comment the previous chapter, since it's a cause and effect type thing.



Kage said:


> Except his reaction is a near replica of Naruto reuniting with his team (sans Sasuke) at the very beginning of the time-skip
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I agree it was nostalgic team 7 reunion thing, but even that page you linked has a cause. In the previous chapter Naruto did his sexy jutsu and Sakura hit him for it. After that he still sometimes asked her for dates (would be considered flirting no?) and didn't get a harsh physical response. It's only when he pushes too far (according to Sakura anyway) that he actually get hit.


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> I agree it was nostalgic team 7 reunion thing, but even that page you linked has a cause. In the previous chapter Naruto did his sexy jutsu and Sakura hit him for it. After that he still sometimes asked her for dates (would be considered flirting no?) and didn't get a harsh physical response. It's only when he pushes too far (according to Sakura anyway) that he actually get hit.



Yes but he performed the jutsu to show off to Konohamaru and pissing off Sakura was just a consequence. This only proves my point about how he doesn't really take the time to consider whether some of the things he says or does will set her off. He does not provoke her on purpose for any reason.


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> Yes but he performed the jutsu to show off to Konohamaru and pissing off Sakura was just a consequence. This only proves my point about how he doesn't really take the time to consider whether some of the things he says or does will set her off. He does not provoke her on purpose for any reason.



It's true that in that early part 2 scene he didn't do it to purposely piss her off, he did find out it did. Thar gf comment, however, isn't the first time he did it and knows she doesn't like it.


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## Mr Horrible (May 29, 2014)

emachina said:


> I don't know Les, sure all those pictures of Naruto and Hinata looking deep into each other's eye, the cheek caress, the hand holding, the trust they both place in each other...sure that might imply romance to some people. But, come on, look at Sakura's face in the post you made.
> 
> The irritation, the irrational hatred, the uncontrollable violence, and the look of pure unyielding rage painted on Sakura's face. If that doesn't say: "When this is all over, I am so going to have your babies", I don't what does.
> 
> /sarc



Ah yes, the very definition of a circlejerk right here.

I like how you guys compare what is the pinnacle of NH at the moment to a single NS scene . That being said I'd still argue that 1-2 punch of Kushina and Minato's words doesn't lose to that NH moment in the slightest.


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## FlawlessVictory (May 29, 2014)

@Njaa

Probably why he was hesitant. He wanted to impress his pop even knowing what the consequences might be.

Again there is no evident link between the girlfriend scene and the one where he notes Sakura's brute force. That is reader interpretation. There is an actual link backed up by manga panels to the time when he first saw an example of Sakura's monstrous strength and essentially said the same thing.


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## Kage (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> It's true that in that early part 2 scene he didn't do it to purposely piss her off, he did find out it did. Thar gf comment, however, isn't the first time he did it and knows she doesn't like it.



Perhaps but it still doesn't explain why he thought it was better to tease Sakura and get clonked for it rather than use the opportunity to let his dead father know who his _real_ "girlfriend" is *shrug*



FlawlessVictory said:


> Probably why he was hesitant. He wanted to impress his pop even knowing what the consequences might be.
> 
> Again there is no evident link between the girlfriend scene and the one where he notes Sakura's brute force. That is reader interpretation. There is an actual link backed up by manga panels to the time when he first saw an example of Sakura's monstrous strength and essentially said the same thing.


Having a girlfriend is the type of thing Naruto would probably love to brag about.

Yup.


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## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> @Njaa
> 
> Probably why he was hesitant. He wanted to impress his pop even knowing what the consequences might be.
> 
> Again there is no evident link between the girlfriend scene and the one where he notes Sakura's brute force. That is reader interpretation. There is an actual link backed up by manga panels to the time when he first saw an example of Sakura's monstrous strength and essentially said the same thing.



I'm mainly hung up on his "shouldn't turn againt/poke fun" part as that is referencing something he did.



Kage said:


> Perhaps but it still doesn't explain why he thought it was better to tease Sakura and get clonked for it rather than use the opportunity to let his dead father know who his _real_ "girlfriend" is *shrug*



Pairing tease? I may be rooting for NH but Hinata isn't his gf either.


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## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> To me this one page is the one that doomed NS.
> 
> 
> "I just switched from Sasuke to you. They say a woman's heart is as changeable as the autumn sky, don't they?"
> ...


It's more like she was trying to convince herself that she could just easily switch over to Naruto just because Sasuke turned into a criminal. I don't see how that negates all the NS development that happened before in the story.  This is just another desperate argument.


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## Selina Kyle (May 29, 2014)

you know, even though all this crap happened, i understand where sakura's coming from. 
sakura is a really kind and gentle girl. 
however, she's very naive when it comes to understanding what love is logically. 
this is probably because sakura is the 'heart' of the team???
i don't believe that love is merely, simply a feeling. 
i believe that love is reason and logic, the backbone of true justice and judgment. 
sakura needs to understand that component, and it looks like she will soon. 
i don't like how kishi portrayed her out right now.
i don't like the fact that kishi used stereotypes to weave sexism into his manga at times. 
but this is sakura right now, the heroine of the story. 
and the sooner she grows out of sasuke, the better. 
because it will counter out some of the bland prejudices placed on women in narutoverse.
it will tell the readers that you don't need to take crap from assholes. 
it will tell the readers that you too, regardless of the stigma placed upon you by society, can change yourself and the world around you. 
ss is unhealthy and toxic to sakura. 
'because she loves him' doesn't cut it. that's abusive to sakura.


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## SLB (May 29, 2014)

odango said:


> you know, even though all this crap happened, i understand where sakura's coming from.
> sakura is a really kind and gentle girl.
> however, she's very naive when it comes to understanding what love is logically.
> this is probably because sakura is the 'heart' of the team???
> ...



yup. and more specifically...



> 'because she loves him' doesn't cut it.



this is particularly damaging to potential character development pursuits with her character because it blocks all rational. it's limiting to say the love she has for him can't change or manifest in different ways or that she can't realize that what she's feeling is unhealthy. 

it maintains a linear narrative and that's probably not the best for her character in the long run.


----------



## Kage (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> Pairing tease? I may be rooting for NH but Hinata isn't his gf either.


You would have to acknowledge it as a possibility first to consider it a pairing tease I think? Though forgive me If I'm mistaken in lumping you in with those who consider NaruSaku pretty much dead.

Why should that stop him from hinting at the possibility with someone else. I doubt Hinata would raise a stink over the implication. Anywho this is starting to tread even further on the 'hypothetical' territory and I'll only go so far down that road before reaching the extent of fucks I give about it.


----------



## FlawlessVictory (May 29, 2014)

Njaa said:


> I'm mainly hung up on his "shouldn't turn againt/poke fun" part as that is referencing something he did.
> 
> 
> 
> Pairing tease? I may be rooting for NH but Hinata isn't his gf either.



He essentially said the same thing in chapter 246. "I should stop playing around in front of Sakura... She could kill me...!"



Obviously Hinata isn't his girlfriend but rather than waste Minato on a throwaway joke, he could have been introduced to the girl that his son is actually destined to be with if NH is the plan. Instead Minato is only aware of Sakura's relationship with his son.


----------



## Corvida (May 29, 2014)

> odango said:
> 
> 
> > , she's very naive when it comes to understanding what love is *logically. *
> ...


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 29, 2014)

Corvida said:


> That  is *precisely* what she swore by sweet baby jesus she had done when she confessed on Iron land..Understood the component.
> 
> It?s too late for "the sooner the better", at this apocalyptic stage  of the story dont  you think?Even the end of part one would have been a better time.
> 
> ...





when did sasuke become sakura's boyfriend  


and i will not cheer because she will 'finally feel very good about it.'

i will cheer when sakura cheers herself up and put her own damn two feet down because she wants to.


and i don't understand what you've just wrote down because it's very hard to read it.


----------



## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

FlawlessVictory said:


> Being dismissive of someone's analysis is not debating.



I am being dismissive for good reason.



> Address the points rather than just claiming "it's a joke lol" and ignoring the argument.



That's the argument, if you haven't noticed yet. It's a joke and you people take jokes too seriously. Only that explains why you lot feel like Naruto's feelings for Sakura, which are 90% of the time pure comic relef, are in the same level of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto, which are 90% of the time (or more) serious business.

Oh and Naruto is main character. Can't forget that one. Such a classic.



> Is it because you don't actually have a counter argument? I could easily simplify every single NaruHina argument yet I carefully address the points people make out of respect for them and the act of debating.



I wouldn't have anything against you dismissing NaruHina and SasuSaku arguments if they were comic relief or equally useless narrative devices. Too bad for you they're not.



> You claim the girlfriend scene is just for random laughs yet some people, (I'm not sure if you have) are trying to claim it as undeniable proof that Sakura hates the idea of being in a relationship with Naruto. Also the fact that you just can't possibly see it as a possible pairing tease is perplexing.



I have not said Sakura hates the idea of a relationship with Naruto. I said she's not interested in a relationship with Naruto.



> Are you that obtuse or are you just being disingenuous?



NS / ANH / ASS crowd's penchant for sharing the same insult brain cell that they swap it around when it's time to debate rears it's ugly head.



> Also ever heard the saying, "It's funny because it's true?"



Sakura is dating Naruto then? I'm going to take a page out of Corvida's book. _Does she know this?_



> Why do you think any girl would do? What do you consider shipping worthy?



To take a scene seriously? Not playing it for laughs, which is the exact opposite of taking a scene seriously.



> I never said the scene was romantic.



I wasn't debating with just you, ya know.



> Movement lines do not indicate a squeeze. That could be when he's about to let go of her hand. Also the drawing looks exactly the same as when he was loosely holding it. A sound effect would be needed to prove he was squeezing her fingers.



Movement lines imply... movement. Then, you got to notice the timeline of these events. Naruto only let go of Hinata's hand AFTER he powered them with Kurama's cloak. However, the flashback in 633 happened with them in base. So no, it can't be when he's about to let go of her hand _at all_.

Furthermore, why would a clearly infatuated Hinata remember the moment Naruto let go of her hand? 

The truth is Naruto was wearing gloves so he wouldn't catch the Titnata cooties. We just don't know because it happened off screen.



Elicit94 said:


> How would it even help NH if was a joke? If he would joke about it, it would still mean that he does it because he really wants her to be his girlfriend, and *it would still mean that he was not trying to be romantic when he held Hinata's hand*.



Why does it even matter? Regarding Hinata, she never cared about NaruSaku. Regarding Naruto, if he's joking around, it means his feelings aren't that serious so a basic crush isn't a threat to anything.



> Joke or not, you lose.



Oooh, that sure showed me. NOT. That's some nice gymnastics you attempted there, but the truth is you're taking a joke too seriously.



Mr Horrible said:


> Ah yes, the very definition of a circlejerk right here.
> 
> I like how you guys compare what is the pinnacle of NH at the moment to a single NS scene . That being said I'd still argue that 1-2 punch of Kushina and Minato's words doesn't lose to that NH moment in the slightest.



That's because the pinaccle of NaruSaku is all platonic and most if not all have happened before the war even started, so irrelevant for recent history. Only Naruto's joke comment can classify as a romantic type of scene.



odango said:


> you know, even though all this crap happened, i understand where sakura's coming from.
> sakura is a really kind and gentle girl.
> however, she's very naive when it comes to understanding what love is logically.
> this is probably because sakura is the 'heart' of the team???
> ...



this thing here. 

because she loves him doesn't cut it? what does it cut it then? she doesn't even love naruto.


----------



## Njaa (May 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> You would have to acknowledge it as a possibility first to consider it a pairing tease I think? Though forgive me If I'm mistaken in lumping you in with those who consider NaruSaku pretty much dead.
> 
> Why should that stop him from hinting at the possibility with someone else. I doubt Hinata would raise a stink over the implication. Anywho this is starting to tread even further on the 'hypothetical' territory and I'll only go so far down that road before reaching the extent of fucks I give about it.



Sure while i think it's unlikely i don't deny it's possible.



FlawlessVictory said:


> He essentially said the same thing in chapter 246. "I should stop playing around in front of Sakura... She could kill me...!"
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously Hinata isn't his girlfriend but rather than waste Minato on a throwaway joke, he could have been introduced to the girl that his son is actually destined to be with if NH is the plan. Instead Minato is only aware of Sakura's relationship with his son.



Even that had a root cause.

*Spoiler*: __ 







As his playing around was him doing his sexy jutsu in front of her.

I don't considered Minato to be wasted on a joke, since his presence was much more about his relationship with his son than ship teases.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> this thing here. : lmao
> 
> because she loves him doesn't cut it? what does it cut it then? she doesn't even love naruto. : lmao



what are you so afraid of that you'd have to mock my post like that? 
as someone who doesn't ship any pairings but does have general interest in it, i'll tell you one thing that i know out of the pairing biz in the manga:
there never was ss. 
sakura's love for sasuke was purely one-sided. 
sasuke isn't going to reciprocate. ever.
and did i mention naruto in my post? no. i mentioned sakura mostly and sasuke. 

and if i do have to mention naruto, yes, she cares tons about naruto. 
love? yes, she does love naruto. 
not romantically (yet) but there are different kinds of love. 
she did a lot of selfless things to save naruto such as the cpr. she's willing to cross any boarders for naruto, and if that's not love, then you can't define it by anything else. caring? kindness? those are all weak words compared to what sakura has done for naruto.


----------



## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

odango said:


> what are you so afraid of that you'd have to mock my post like that?
> as someone who doesn't ship any pairings but does have general interest in it, i'll tell you one thing that i know out of the pairing biz in the manga:
> there never was ss.
> sakura's love for sasuke was purely one-sided.
> ...



That's nice of you to think that, but I disagree. 



> and if i do have to mention naruto, yes, she cares tons about naruto.
> love? yes, she does love naruto.
> not romantically (yet) but there are different kinds of love.
> she did a lot of selfless things to save naruto such as the cpr. she's willing to cross any boarders for naruto, and if that's not love, then you can't define it by anything else. caring? kindness? those are all weak words compared to what sakura has done for naruto.



Sakura doesn't love Naruto romantically and she never will. She already went through all the situations where she could fall for him and she didn't. There's nothing left. It's over.


----------



## Selina Kyle (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's nice of you to think that, but I disagree.  smile -big
> 
> 
> 
> Sakura doesn't love Naruto romantically and she never will. She already went through all the situations where she could fall for him and she didn't. There's nothing left. It's over.



good, because i disagree with you too.


----------



## Elicit94 (May 29, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Why does it even matter? Regarding Hinata, she never cared about NaruSaku. Regarding Naruto, if he's joking around, it means his feelings aren't that serious so a basic crush isn't a threat to anything.



No, this most likely means that she's not aware of exactly of how much Naruto is in love with Sakura. Even if she knows that he has a thing for Sakura, there is basically no way she can know that it's romantic love. It's actually a bad thing for a side character like Hinata to have never been aware of the main character's feelings for another girl, because it's even more obvious that those feelings are going to be broken from Naruto preferring Sakura over her. It'll actually be pretty hilarious when that happens.



> Oooh, that sure showed me. NOT. That's some nice gymnastics you attempted there, but the truth is you're taking a joke too seriously.



How can you be so sure that Naruto is warming up to Hinata romantically? He doesn't take a handhold that should have romantic implications seriously. This hand hold that should have meant that Naruto and Hinata are now one. Is he a two-timing moron?


----------



## ch1p (May 29, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> No, this most likely means that she's not aware of exactly of how much Naruto is in love with Sakura. Even if she knows that he has a thing for Sakura, there is basically no way she can know that it's romantic love.



Yes, Hinata is stupid for not realising Naruto loves Sakura, even though he has asked her out publically and even that socially retarded Sai can tell (since we're assuming he got it right then).

Sakura is also stupid, because she spent over 10 years in love with a guy which is clearly wrong for her and she spent over 10 years not in love with a guy that is clearly right for her. Or worse, Sakura is so stupid she doesn't realise her own feelings. Whatever school of thought you fancy yourself in.

Everyone's stupid! This is NaruSaku.



> It's actually a bad thing for a side character like Hinata to have never been aware of the main character's feelings for another girl, because it's even more obvious that those feelings are going to be broken from Naruto preferring Sakura over her.



I have no idea what mangas you've been reading, but that isn't always the case. Hell, that's not even tha majority of the cases.



> It'll actually be pretty hilarious when that happens.



_Wow, that's lovely_.



> How can you be so sure that Naruto is warming up to Hinata romantically? He doesn't take a handhold that should have romantic implications seriously. This hand hold that should have meant that Naruto and Hinata are now one. Is he a two-timing moron?



How is Naruto two-timing? He's not dating Sakura!


----------



## pizza_blade (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's nice of you to think that, but I disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> Sakura doesn't love Naruto romantically and she never will. She already went through all the situations where she could fall for him and she didn't. There's nothing left. It's over.



Actually, the same can be said to Sasuke -------> Sakura, if the latest chapter is any indication (I actually laughed at the smackdown, what a Jackass--but it's certainly in-character for him), and also Naruto -----------> Hinata too, if the development so far is any indication.

I mean, claiming to your zombie father that Sakura is his girlfriend after all that hush-mush hand-holding slap-loving action Hinata did? Or back then how he completely and utterly ignored Hinata post I-love-you-STABBED confession in Pain arc? 

Pffft. There's nothing left. They're over too.


----------



## Revolution (May 30, 2014)

The reason the latest chapter makes me no longer ship SasuSaku (and I ship almost everything) is NOT what Sasuke said to her, but what Sakura *didn't* say.  Instead of "You jerk" or "Don't underestimate me" or SOMETHING, all she said was "..." feeling bad about herself.

That is not healthy for Sasuke.  Don't think of Sakura's feelings.  Think of Sasuke's.  Naruto was the one who stood up to him.  Not Sakura.  Even NaruSasu or 
*Spoiler*: __ 



SasuKarin


 or SasuHina is better then SasuSaku now.


----------



## Elicit94 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Yes, Hinata is stupid for not realising Naruto loves Sakura, even though he has asked her out publically and even that socially retarded Sai can tell (since we're assuming he got it right then).



How would anyone other than Naruto's own team mates be able to tell that he is in love with Sakura? At most, non-teammates would only be able to tell that he just likes her, and that it's probably not anything serious. Sai was only able to tell that he is in love with Sakura after he got beat up by Karui. 



> Sakura is also stupid, because she spent over 10 years in love with a guy which is clearly wrong for her and she spent over 10 years not in love with a guy that is clearly right for her. Or worse, Sakura is so stupid she doesn't realise her own feelings. Whatever school of thought you fancy yourself in.


Sasuke was Sakura's love object for 10 years. That's why it's hard for her to get over him, but it's definitely heading there. As for her feelings for Naruto... you are probably right about that. She's definitely closer to being in love with Naruto than Naruto being in love with Hinata, though. 



> I have no idea what mangas you've been reading, but that isn't always the case. Hell, that's not even tha majority of the cases.



I'm pretty sure Shonen manga's have never favored the shy satellite love interest over the main character's original love interest. There also has been no indication that Naruto will ever get over Sakura. Jiraiya lived his life getting laid with many different girls but still only loved Tsunade his whole life.


----------



## ch1p (May 30, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> Actually, the same can be said to Sasuke -------> Sakura, if the latest chapter is any indication (I actually laughed at the smackdown, what a Jackass--but it's certainly in-character for him), and also Naruto -----------> Hinata too, if the development so far is any indication.
> 
> I mean, claiming to your zombie father that Sakura is his girlfriend after all that hush-mush hand-holding slap-loving action Hinata did? Or back then how he completely and utterly ignored Hinata post I-love-you-STABBED confession in Pain arc?



I like how you have no response for the NaruSaku arguments we're having, so you try to steer it away to SasuSaku and NaruHina.

I also like how that NaruSaku fan was expressing her or his glee at the moment when Hinata realises her happiness with Naruto will be denied and how you are expressing your glee at the supposed smackdown Sakura received from Sasuke. She deserves it, right? They both deserve it.

_Wow_.



> Pffft. There's nothing left. They're over too.



Suuuure. 



Sarahmint said:


> The reason the latest chapter makes me no longer ship SasuSaku (and I ship almost everything) is NOT what Sasuke said to her, but what Sakura *didn't* say.  Instead of "You jerk" or "Don't underestimate me" or SOMETHING, all she said was "..." feeling bad about herself.
> 
> That is not healthy for Sasuke.  Don't think of Sakura's feelings.  Think of Sasuke's.  Naruto was the one who stood up to him.  Not Sakura.  Even NaruSasu or
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Sarah please.  Sakura wants to save Sasuke from darkness even though he tried to kill her. She thinks of him and his feelings quite a big deal. If she only thought of herself, she would have given up on him. In fact, he'd be dead by now, because she wouldn't have stopped from killing him.



Elicit94 said:


> How would anyone other than Naruto's own team mates be able to tell that he is in love with Sakura?



Why wouldn't they? They've been together since they were six or so and Naruto isn't a quiet sort of fellow. It's not a secret or anything of the sort.



> At most, non-teammates would only be able to tell that he just likes her, and that it's probably not anything serious.



That's because it really is nothing serious.

You're not helping your argument either. Hinata was there to listen to the GF comment, but she did not give a darn. You know why? Because as you say, what they see is nothing serious.



> Sai was only able to tell that he is in love with Sakura after he got beat up by Karui.



Naruto got beat up by Karui for the sake of Sasuke and team 7 as well and he's not in love with them.



> Sasuke was Sakura's love object for 10 years. That's why it's hard for her to get over him, but it's definitely heading there. As for her feelings for Naruto... you are probably right about that. She's definitely closer to being in love with Naruto than Naruto being in love with Hinata, though.



I've heard that mantra since chapter 245.  I'll be hearing it once this manga is over too.

Naruto's feelings are not serious and they never will be. Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. Him attempting to kill her changed nothing. She went through everything she could towards Naruto and she still doens't love him, either.



> I'm pretty sure Shonen manga's have never favored the shy satellite love interest over the main character's original love interest.



Digimon (for example). Other series aren't Naruto by the way.



> There also has been no indication that Naruto will ever get over Sakura. Jiraiya lived his life getting laid with many different girls but still only loved Tsunade his whole life.



Jiraiya isn't Naruto either.


----------



## pizza_blade (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I like how you have no response for the NaruSaku arguments we're having, so you try to steer it away to SasuSaku and NaruHina.
> 
> I also like how that NaruSaku fan was expressing her or his glee at the moment when Hinata realises her happiness with Naruto will be denied and how you are expressing your glee at the supposed smackdown Sakura received from Sasuke. She deserves it, right? They both deserve it.
> 
> ...



Hahaha, I actually didn't read all of your argument but I read that one bit in a glance and decided to chime in.

I mean, the logic stating that "Sakura have multiple chances of her falling in love with Naruto but she didn't"--if you do actually follow it--can also be said for Sasuke towards Sakura and Naruto towards Hinata. How the girls showed the boys compassion and love and whathaveyou and yet these boys didn't respond positively/romantically. 

Actually, belay that, Naruto ---> Hinata is actually debatable and I *can* see it happening if Kishi decides to take that route, and I wouldn't mind it happening even though it's not my first choice, but Sasuke towards Sakura? (Since obviously we need *two* people in love to make a relationship works) 

So yeah, if you ship SasuSaku and saying those things, yeah, your argument is also  worthy


----------



## Corvida (May 30, 2014)

> [/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Elicit94 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Why wouldn't they? They've been together since they were six or so and Naruto isn't a quiet sort of fellow. It's not a secret or anything of the sort.



I'm talking about *genuinely loving* someone, not just a fondness for someone that is easy to tell from the surface. The only person who was able to tell just how much Naruto is in love with Sakura is Sai, because he was the only one who knew that he couldn't confess to Sakura because he couldn't keep his promises, and how it pained him. 



> That's because it really is nothing serious.



Yeah, being in love with someone so much that they are completely devoted to fulfill that person's greatest desire to "protect that smiling face" isn't serious. 

This is starting to get really sad.



> You're not helping your argument either. Hinata was there to listen to the GF comment, but she did not give a darn. You know why? Because as you say, what they see is nothing serious.



If she was listening she should have been visibly hurt by his comment, but she wasn't. You can't expect her to be listening to Naruto's personal conversation with his dad when she has to be worried about herself.


----------



## Scila9 (May 30, 2014)

Corvida said:


> So much for proving herself and to the world, unless her way is *breaking Sasuke?s heart* showing him she doesnt care anymore.





Sasuke currently does not care enough about Sakura or her feelings for that to happen. 

I think I worded that very generously.


----------



## ch1p (May 30, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> Hahaha, I actually didn't read all of your argument but I read that one bit in a glance and decided to chime in.



I'm not surprised you lot aren't reading everything.



> I mean, the logic stating that "Sakura have multiple chances of her falling in love with Naruto but she didn't"--if you do actually follow it--can also be said for Sasuke towards Sakura and Naruto towards Hinata. How the girls showed the boys compassion and love and whathaveyou and yet these boys didn't respond positively/romantically.



Hinata wasn't pursuing Naruto romantically, but now she is. He seems alright with it and has even encouraged her (looks like a douche otherwise). SasuSaku has always been an option after he's redeemed, never before.

I've just gave you the two scenarios where NH / SS can (and will) work. On the other hand, NaruSaku exhausted all possibilities. You lot were already fumbling with bad scenarios even before Naruto died, to say nothing of now.

If NaruSAku is so like these two as you pretend it to be, give a scenario where Sakura can fall out of love of Sasuke and fall in love with Naruto. Go on. Without degrading characters if you please.



> Actually, belay that, Naruto ---> Hinata is actually debatable and I *can* see it happening if Kishi decides to take that route, and I wouldn't mind it happening even though it's not my first choice, but Sasuke towards Sakura? (Since obviously we need *two* people in love to make a relationship. So yeah, if you ship SasuSaku and saying those things, yeah, your argument is also  worthy



You're all pretty much the same. Can't argument to defend your pairing, attack another instead and with bitter abandon.



TheWebbstir said:


> Maybe healthy wasn't the best word, but she's only staying true to a belief that Sakura should be able to "handle Sasuke" better than she's being shown to.



Dude. She just said OroSAsu is more healthy for Sasuke. Why are you defending this bulshit. Learn to draw a line, will you?



Elicit94 said:


> I'm talking about *genuinely loving* someone, not just a fondness for someone that is easy to tell from the surface. The only person who was able to tell just how much Naruto is in love with Sakura is Sai, because he was the only one who knew that he couldn't confess to Sakura because he couldn't keep his promises, and how it pained him.



Sai said he misunderstood a lot of things. In fact, in that very same chapter, he says he doesn't understand people. And Sai uses 'suki' for Naruto's feelings (both times) while he uses 'daisuki' for Sakura's feelings (whatever many times he said it, three?).



> Yeah, being in love with someone so much that they are completely devoted to fulfill that person's greatest desire to "protect that smiling face" isn't serious.



Uhm uhm, that's nice. However, Naruto's greatest desire is not to protect that smiling face and if you think it is, you have a very gross understanding of Naruto's character. Furthermore, people may want to make others happy out of chivalry. Or are you ready to take Sakura's feelings seriously since she wants to save Sasuke from darkness? Because that's even more poignant than protecting someone's happiness.



> This is starting to get really sad.



It really is. For NaruSaku fans Naruto's feelings are taken too seriously while Hinata / Sakura's are not taken seriously enough. No matter how many times Kishi brings the latter up and no matter how many times Kishi doesn't bring the former.



> If she was listening she should have been visibly hurt by his comment, but she wasn't. You can't expect her to be listening to Naruto's personal conversation with his dad when she has to be worried about herself.



Stop. Naruto's crush has never been a secret. Hinata doesn't take NaruSaku seriously because there's nothing there to take seriously. She knows what's up, contrarily to you.


----------



## Scila9 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You're all pretty much the same. Can't argument to defend your pairing, attack another instead and with bitter abandon.


This hypocrisy leaves me speechless.



> Dude. She just said OroSAsu is more healthy for Sasuke. Why are you defending this bullshit. Learn to draw a line, will you?



Draw a line? Between a healthy and unhealthy relationship? 

Believe you me, I have a line. Oh yes, I have a line. My line has been crossed by many a Naruto pair. All three of the ships she mentioned have crossed it. I was only defending her reasoning for no longer shipping SS ( i.e. it being unhealthy) I can at least agree on that whether I agree with what she said about NaruSasu and OroSasu or not. Which I don't. Oro only wants Sauce for his body (that will never stop sounding creepy)

I am curious as to what constitutes an unhealthy relationship for you though. If abandoning someone who loves you for revenge and multiple murder attempts don't cross your line, what does?


----------



## ch1p (May 30, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> This hypocrisy leaves me speechless.



You continue not addressing the NaruSaku arguments. ~



> Draw a line?



Yes, learn to draw a line. Sarahmint was saying that Sakura's care for Sasuke was more unhealthy than Orochimaru's for Sasuke. Come on, now. Draw a line. Not, ya know, continue attempting to pretend the anti NaruSaku arguments aren't there and trying to steer this into SasuSaku territory instead.


----------



## Scila9 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You continue not addressing the NaruSaku arguments. ~



What does that have to do with your hypocrisy?

I wasn't the one you were aiming those arguments at. I didn't realize I was supposed to address them. I don't have to anyway though. I'll address NH and NS whenever I feel like it.



> Yes, learn to draw a line. Sarahmint was saying that Sakura's care for Sasuke was more unhealthy than Orochimaru's for Sasuke. Come on, now. Draw a line. Not, ya know, continue attempting to pretend the anti NaruSaku arguments aren't there and trying to steer this into SasuSaku territory instead.



I can only assume you didn't read the rest of my post since you replied as if I didn't say anything more than that.

I don't feel like arguing about NH or NS right now. I feel like addressing SS, so that's what I'm going to do. If no one else wants to, then all they have to do is ignore what I post. If you don't want to answer my question then you don't have to. I can't make you *shrugs*


----------



## ch1p (May 30, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> What does that have to do with your hypocrisy?



What hypocrisy? We're discussing NaruSaku now, not SasuSaku. What you want isn't a debate. What you want is a 'no u' ad infinitum.



> I wasn't the one you were aiming those arguments at. I didn't realize I was supposed to address them. I don't have to anyway though. I'll address NH and NS whenever I feel like it.



Still avoiding the issue I see. 



> I can only assume you didn't read the rest of my post since you replied as if I didn't say anything more than that. I don't feel like arguing about NH or NS right now. I feel like addressing SS, so that's what I'm going to do. If no one else wants to, then all they have to do is ignore what I post. If you don't want to answer my question then you don't have to. I can't make you *shrugs*



That's the problem. We were discussing NaruSaku, not SasuSaku. If you want to address SS then you should wait until the current discussion is over. That's what a debate is like.


----------



## Scila9 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> What hypocrisy? We're discussing NaruSaku now, not SasuSaku. What you want isn't a debate. What you want is a 'no u' ad infinitum.



? Did you forget that you responded to a post of mine that was about SS? I haven't talked about NS at all because that wasn't what I was addressing when I came into this thread last night.

Geeze, this is becoming a neverending back and forth. But I want it sorted out.



> Still avoiding the issue I see.



 What are you _talking_ about? I'm avoiding _nothing_.

Wait a sec, scratch that. I am. I'm trying to stay out of a debate that you and some others were having about NS, because _I wasn't a part of it_. And I don't want to be.

I'm sorry if you thought I did want to be when I addressed your hypocrisy. 

What I'm talking about, btw, is how hypocritical it is (not only of you, but anyone really) to try to shame your rival pairs for "ignoring points and attacking each other with bitter abandonment." (I paraphrased) I don't know about the bitter part, but it's a fact that all sides attack each other.



> That's the problem. We were discussing NaruSaku, not SasuSaku. If you want to address SS then you should wait until the current discussion is over. That's what a debate is like.



You replied to one of my posts so I replied as well, while also commenting on something I thought was hypocritical. That's what happened


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## Corvida (May 30, 2014)

> []QUOTE=TheWebbstir;50805877]
> 
> Sasuke currently does not care enough about Sakura or her feelings for that to happen.
> 
> I think I worded that very generously.



:amazed

You?re telling me!

I was wrong trying to be sarcastic using Spanish instad of lil emoticons, but that?s exactly my point. What would current Sasuke say if  Sakura suddently, after getting all sad  discovering once again Sasuke  is unattainable and very, very bad,  proudly proclaimed" that?s it, bastard-" and started singing Eartha Kitt?s "this is my life".




But dont t tell me there will be a point in which a future Sasuke would care again, as that would be still better. for  the post guilt trip and iron land  comedic redundancy case.


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## ch1p (May 30, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> ? Did you forget that you responded to a post of mine that was about SS? I haven't talked about NS at all because that wasn't what I was addressing when I came into this thread last night.
> 
> Geeze, this is becoming a neverending back and forth. But I want it sorted out.
> 
> ...



You're being a nuisance towards the discussion because you can't cope with the anti NS arguments so you have to deflect elsewhere. That's my point. If the others don't come back, we'll talk about SS. Wait a little bit until then.



Corvida said:


> :amazed
> 
> You?re telling me!
> 
> ...



Agreed.


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## LesExit (May 30, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> *@ Ch1p* I agree actually.  Sasuke _does_ care about Sakura, but that's not the problem.
> 
> There is a quote about how when you are under pressure you show your true self.  Sasuke is being himself as all the chips are down.  Sakura is being herself as well.  A sad face with "...".  This is what their marriage would be like.  It kinda sucks.
> 
> I'd rather have Sasukes teenage daughter hate her dad for being strict about who she dates rather then the way he treats mom.


Maybe Sakura didn't say anything in this situation specifically because she knows his words are true..she honestly can't do anything worthwhile as of now D: Even Sasuke was able to shut Kakashi up a bit. Sakura did speak up against him after the last Naru Sasu clash.

I'm sure that some sort of confrontation will take place. Sakura isn't that weak, so she better tell him off >.>


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## Kage (May 30, 2014)

mein sides

I think this debate would run a lot more smoothly if people could keep their headcanons (Sasuke's achy breaky heart) and fanfiction (Sasuke's future teenage daughter) out of it.

If it can't be supported by manga canon it doesn't belong here.

Oh and practicing what you preach would be nice. Nobody should lecture anyone on courtesies they can't be bothered to show the opposition.


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## Elicit94 (May 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Sai said he misunderstood a lot of things. In fact, in that very same chapter, he says he doesn't understand people. And Sai uses 'suki' for Naruto's feelings (both times) while he uses 'daisuki' for Sakura's feelings (whatever many times he said it, three?).


I'm pretty sure it still translates to "really loves".



> Uhm uhm, that's nice. However, Naruto's greatest desire is not to protect that smiling face and if you think it is, you have a very gross understanding of Naruto's character. Furthermore, people may want to make others happy out of chivalry. Or are you ready to take Sakura's feelings seriously since she wants to save Sasuke from darkness? Because that's even more poignant than protecting someone's happiness.



I never said it was his greatest desire, but it's pretty high up there. Naruto wanting to make Sakura happy is not out of chivalry. Naruto (especially) and Kakashi want to save Sasuke from the darkness, are they in love with him? Sakura's desire to save him from darkness > Naruto's desire to save him from darkness?



> It really is. For NaruSaku fans Naruto's feelings are taken too seriously while Hinata / Sakura's are not taken seriously enough. No matter how many times Kishi brings the latter up and no matter how many times Kishi doesn't bring the former.



It's sad only because Naruto's selfless love is always underestimated while Sakura's selfish love for Sasuke is supposed to be taken seriously even though her feelings are obviously fading away. Why would you place a selfish romantic love over a selfless romantic love? 



> Stop. Naruto's crush has never been a secret. Hinata doesn't take NaruSaku seriously because there's nothing there to take seriously. She knows what's up, contrarily to you.



She's just a side character who has never cared about his dream of becoming hokage or his desire to save Sasuke. It's almost like she's not even aware of anything important to him. I don't know how you can be so sure.


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## Revolution (May 30, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Maybe Sakura didn't say anything in this situation specifically because she knows his words are true..she honestly can't do anything worthwhile as of now D: Even Sasuke was able to shut Kakashi up a bit. Sakura did speak up against him after the last Naru Sasu clash.
> 
> I'm sure that some sort of confrontation will take place. Sakura isn't that weak, so she better tell him off >.>



I've been waiting so long I expected it to happen.  I doubt it at this point but hopefully it will happen.  Just don't see why she would bother since she was always one to tell those who put her down off until Sasuke said it.


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## Rinoa (May 30, 2014)

Guys let's drop a little the excess of attitude and sarcasm and accusations _U no U_ here.
Too many posts with attacks on opponents and not just the arguments and deletable posts/lines floating.
Do not forget that this thread doesn't exactly need or give warnings, just read the .
And do not bring other pairings or last chapter spoilers (until the Telegrams are clean).


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## Corvida (May 30, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (May 30, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Remember Naruto?s self introductory words?
> 
> Hinata was one of the very first persons in believing in them, even before thge chuunim exams.



How the hell am I supposed to believe that Hinata is aware of exactly how much Naruto is in love with Sakura when she has never thought about the simple fact that he has feelings for Sakura even though she is in love with him?


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## BankaiLegend3135 (May 30, 2014)

> Stop. Naruto's crush has never been a secret. Hinata doesn't take NaruSaku seriously because there's nothing there to take seriously. She knows what's up, contrarily to you.



Wait a minute. WAIT A MINUTE. you don't take a guy who's literally sacrificed everything almost for Sakura's happiness as he's demonstrated multiple times throughout the entire manga, yet you take the feelings of two girls who one) Is completely selfish and has an obsession that's disguised as "love" and the other doesn't even trust the so called man she "loves." 

 

By the way: 



I'm very interested in how you're going to spin how Sakura herself doesn't know what she's talking about and therefore Naruto's not in love with her. 

Oh, and if you need more confirmation:



Now, this is the part where you try to argue these panels somehow don't count or "mean" nothing, but in your view Kakashi weighing in two chapters ago prove Sakura's "serious" feelings for Sasuke somehow.


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## Revolution (May 30, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Wait a minute. WAIT A MINUTE. you don't take a guy who's literally sacrificed everything almost for Sakura's happiness as he's demonstrated multiple times throughout the entire manga, yet you take the feelings of two girls who one) Is completely selfish and has an obsession that's disguised as "love" and the other doesn't even trust the so called man she "loves."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the first image is broken

here:


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## Corvida (May 30, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (May 30, 2014)

Corvida said:


> As for the rest- she has even felt Naruto?s heart and deepest regrests and lifelong regrets, remember  it?They involved the Sasuobssesion you were mentioning the post before, somehting about not having been able to reach him-never anything about not being bale to finally confess to Sakura-chan.
> 
> Which in this genre of story is only, at the most, an added bonus.
> 
> So why the hell should Hinata care?



Why should he have felt bad about not confessing to Sakura in that moment? He never even felt worthy of doing that, so there should be no regrets. There's always some other time. If he didn't feel anything bad about that, nobody would know anything new about his love life. There's still no evidence to suggest that Hinata knows Naruto is in love with Sakura.


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## Corvida (May 31, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why should he have* felt bad *about not confessing to Sakura in that moment? He never even *felt worthy *of doing that, so there should be *no regrets*.



It was an intimate review of his general felings.regrest and tasks to get done, and he never felt worthy, the por mister sacrificed his all earthly happiness for Sakura.

Werent you asking me if the uninportant secondary char?cter Hinata gets a fully grasp of the cosmic importance Sasuke has to the Messiah and the worldly order?

Now, the full Alliance has it.
 I detect the contradictions like the fair pound of guiltrippism Sai piled at Sakura?s door-never felt worthy- coudnt  kept promise-so, according to the nice guy logic,-HE WONT BE EVER BE ABLE TO CONFESS!!!!!!!- Funnily enough, what was eating away Naruto for everyone to see, was a feeling that he had  never been able to reach  or understand Sasuke, even before they joined academy to their battle at the valley of the  end-I suppose as a nod to a future final understanding at the end of the manga, unless we get tragedy
(.Notice that Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi all perfectly know there?s something still  very. very off key with Sasuke and that tough he?s helping the alliance to avoid disaster he has to return to the loving nest yet.)

Unless what Naruto told Sakura when  he debunked her failfession was true, it?s not about the promise the thing that ties his tongue like Sai?s seal and he?s not the  silent suffering love martyr Sai was painting.?




> [There's always some other time.



When Sasuke dies, so Naruto is sealed forever,or whe  he finally reforms and understand bonds and comes back, something mister sacrificed his earthly happiness and all his hopes and dreams for Sakura should be waiting like May w?ter? Sakura should be more tan ready to re-rebound by then,after cheking her trascendence both in the motivation in the retrieval of Sasuke in Naruto and in  theSasuke?s redemption,  so his selflessness would be duly rewarded.



> If he didn't feel anything bad about that, nobody would know anything new about his love life. There's still no evidence to suggest that Hinata knows Naruto is in love with Sakura.



Or to Word it more precisely, there?s no evidence to show that she should care.


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## ch1p (May 31, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I'm pretty sure it still translates to "really loves".



What matters is that suki is "less" stronger than "daisuki". The fact that the character who uses it is the exact same is indicative of a clear measuring of feelings from the author's part or at least how Sai sees it. Considering Sai is the one that is used to gauge Naruto's romantic feelings strenght (since Naruto has never stated them directly besides chapter 3), then his gauging of Sakura's feelings for SAsuke should not be ignored.



> I never said it was his greatest desire, but it's pretty high up there. Naruto wanting to make Sakura happy is not out of chivalry.



I don't need you to say it. If you think that this is important to him that much, then it needs to be in tandem with his wish to be acknowledged and be Hokage and even save Sasuke, which are without a doubt his greatest desires. Only if that's important can it be considered, especially when it has Sakura and Hinata's character motivations against it, whose romantic feelings are waaay more centred at the core of their characters than Naruto's. If they're not in the same category as wanting to be Hokage or saving Sasuke, then it's not essential to his character and it can be shoved aside.

Considering Naruto has never likened wanting Sakura's affections is in the same category as wanting to be acknowledged as saving Sasuke (especially funny that it's absent in chapter 4, which was brought to our attention lately), then it's not on the same level at all (not on the level of Sakura's... Sasuke-kun, or Hinata's... well, we'll talk Sunday, but you know what I mean surely). Furthermore, Naruto wanting to make Sakura smile (or protect her smiling face) is out of comradship or out of chivalry. You have no proof that it's because of romantic love and considering Naruto does it while defering to her feelings for another man and has called her a liar when she said she switched her love interests, it's more indicative of what I propose than what you propose. His motivations aren't in tandem with Sakura and Hinata.



> Naruto (especially) and Kakashi want to save Sasuke from the darkness, are they in love with him? Sakura's desire to save him from darkness > Naruto's desire to save him from darkness?



Nope, but that's the issue here. You're convinced that just because someone feels strongly about something, they have to be in love with someone to do it. So many times have I seen 'oh he saved her against Gaara' as if that's a reason, as if he wouldn't help her if he wasn't in love with her. However, that's not the case. People may feel very strongly about others and things, but that doesn't mean they romantically love that person or do those things because of that reason.

What matters is if the narrative ties things together. In the case of Naruto, his feelings for Sakura were never linked to wanting to protect that smiling face, and when they were (the PoaLT via Sai), Naruto later corrects it and says it has nothing to do with romantic feelings because he wants to save Sasuke himself too. In the case of Sakura, we know saving him from darkness is a wish spurned by her romantic feelings for him (again via Sai and even via Kakashi I know you don't want to accept the translations of 675, but that's the correct interpretation).



> It's sad only because Naruto's selfless love is always underestimated while Sakura's selfish love for Sasuke is supposed to be taken seriously even though her feelings are obviously fading away. Why would you place a selfish romantic love over a selfless romantic love?



I call it sad what some do with Sakura and Hinata's love, in this very same thread where they state they're guiddy to see them disappointed, and they write their feelings off because they're not Naruto, the main character. I call said because you take Naruto's too seriously. It's understimated because Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are treated as a joke, or treated as him accepting Sakura -> Sasuke is beyond is reach. This is why his feelings don't matter all that, especially not in comparison to Sakura and Hinata.

I have no idea where you get the feeling Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are fading away. Then again, I asked this question in the beginning of part 2. It's been a mantra since then. It's been decreasing for so long it may underflow soon. You don't want that.  /nerd joke.



> She's just a side character who has never cared about his dream of becoming hokage or his desire to save Sasuke. It's almost like she's not even aware of anything important to him. I don't know how you can be so sure.



Sakura never cared about Naruto romantically, being annoyed 99% of the times it was brought up. So by under your lolgics of a character not caring about one aspect of its personality, NS will never happen either.

Sakura, Shikamaru, Gaara, Kakashi, Tsunade have all cared about his dream of becoming to be Hokage. This is not exclusive to Sakura. Furthermore, Hinata's feelings for Naruto are rooted in him wanting to have acknowledgement more than anything. That acknowledgement's pinnacle is being Hokage. So, Hinata does care about him wanting to be Hokage. She cares about the reasons he wants to be that after all.

Unf lol and as if you care. You'd be calling Hinata selfish and obsessed if she stated directly that she wants Naruto to be Hokage, because she would be chosing Naruto over Kiba, her teammate.



Sarahmint said:


> I've been waiting so long I expected it to happen.  I doubt it at this point but hopefully it will happen.  Just don't see why she would bother since she was always one to tell those who put her down off until Sasuke said it.



Sakura has told Sasuke off plenty of times. The only times she hasn't is because he's right (chapter 34 and ya know). Yes he could be less blunt, but that has always been his way of speaking. You'd be complaining Sakura doesn't accept Sasuke as he is and you'd be accusing her of trying to change him to what she wants, if she had said anything about his bluntness.



Elicit94 said:


> How the hell am I supposed to believe that Hinata is aware of exactly how much Naruto is in love with Sakura when she has never thought about the simple fact that he has feelings for Sakura even though she is in love with him?



Hinata knows what's up. Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are not what NS fans make it out to be. They're not a threat.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Wait a minute. WAIT A MINUTE. you don't take a guy who's literally sacrificed everything almost for Sakura's happiness as he's demonstrated multiple times throughout the entire manga, yet you take the feelings of two girls who one)



What fanfic.  What has Naruto sacrificed everything almost? 



> Is completely selfish and has an obsession that's disguised as "love" and the other doesn't even trust the so called man she "loves."



They are love, whether you like it or not. Kishi has even said it on interviews.



> By the way:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never said Sakura doesn't know Naruto has a crush on her. She'd be stupid if she didn't know, all things considering.  My point is that NAruto's feelings aren't all that (which she got told that by the way, he didn't let go of his wishes to save SAsuke in exchange with a relationship with her after all) and on top of that, Sakura doesn't see those feelings positivelly. Look at that, cried (tears that aren't of happiness btw) and called him a fool and everything.



> Now, this is the part where you try to argue these panels somehow don't count or "mean" nothing, but in your view Kakashi weighing in two chapters ago prove Sakura's "serious" feelings for Sasuke somehow.



This is the part where I remind you that when the fake confession happened, Naruto sees that Sakura -> Sasuke is too strong for her to let it go and fall for him, that everyone acknowledged Sakura is up to anything to save Sasuke, no matter what it is. This is also the part where I remind you that Kakashi's words in 675 are exactly what happened, that even though Sasuke sunk so low to the point of trying to kill her, Sakura still cannot discard him and loves him and wants to save him from darkness. This is the part I remind you, that all NaruSaku has in comparison while this all went down, is Naruto saying that the PoaLT isn't that important to him , and making that joke about them being dating.



Elicit94 said:


> Why should he have felt bad about not confessing to Sakura in that moment? He never even felt worthy of doing that, so there should be no regrets. There's always some other time. If he didn't feel anything bad about that, nobody would know anything new about his love life. There's still no evidence to suggest that Hinata knows Naruto is in love with Sakura.



This penchant for making characters being stupid from NS is becoming meme-worthy. Sakura is stupid for loving Sasuke even after 10 years of disappointments and she's stupid for not loving Naruto even after all that he has done for him. Or for those who believe in Sai's gentle comment or Yamato's comment  how Sakura is too stupid to see that she lubs Naruto. Or how Kakashi is stupid for saying her love has deepened. Or how Hinata is so stupid for not realising that Naruto loves his Sakura-tchan and will never love her. Or how Naruto is so stupid for not realising that Sakura's love for Sasuke is weak and selfish and giving it more importance than his own feelings. Or how Naruto is so very stupid for not rejecting Hinata already and not noticing how douchy he looks like when he gives her silly comments like 'i can read your eyes' and 'you've always been by side' while squeezing her hand, when he's clearly not interested in her.


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## BatoKusanagi (May 31, 2014)

My question from some pages back wasn't answered (no surprises there). I'll throw in another one: can someone explain to me how Naruto holding the hand of the girl who just weeks ago confessed her love for him not romantic? I mean, once upon a time a very preponderant argument was "lol Naruto doesn't know how Hinata feels", "naruHINA" and other crap, so NH moments were just brushed off as one-sided and therefore irrelevant. Now that he does know how she feels, how is his very much positive response to her (reflected on Hinata's increasing confidence about her chances of being with him, which approach certainty at this point) means only "camaraderie" or "Naruto would do that for any of his friends"? Help would be much appreciated. 



> YOu want me to give you an excuse when you cant even give me one about "you loved him' in past tense. Yeah..no
> 
> 
> but for the hell of it, no shit she still has feelings for him, after all he was her comrade once.


Deflecting, I see... but do you really not know the meaning of the expression "having feelings for someone"? .
So either Kakashi is contradicting himself or he's saying Sakura still loves Sasuke (which has been confirmed time and time again by multiple characters). I go with the latter.
But if it bothers you so much you can read MS' or Viz's translations which translate that line in a more fool-proof way.



			
				WolfPrinceKiba said:
			
		

> This has already been debunked multiple times in these threads. Naruto's words in Iron Country about the PoaL are about his own desire to save Sasuke, that he would want to do it regardless of the promise or not. They do not however mean that the PoaL doesn't matter at all to him in regards to his relationship with Sakura.


Hey, that's what Naruto said. He was clear about it. You can laugh if you want. The point remains that promise or no promise Naruto wants to save Sasuke. That's why Sakura's attempted manipulation using the POAL completely failed and was nonchalantly brushed off by Naruto. Sai was wrong by overstating the importance of the POAL tp Naruto (even going as far as to compare with the curse Danzo puts on Root members) when talking to Sakura. 
And the point remains that NS hasn't happened yet not because of the POAL as a) Naruto states it to at best second place to his actual goals and b) it apparently didn't stop Naruto from asking Sakura on dates and supposedly claiming her his girlfriend, but simply because it's not Kishi's plan for the manga (that much should be obvious after 678 chapters of no romance between Naruto and Sakura). There's really no excuse for NS being not having progressed past the friendship that was already established in part 1. It's actually gotten worse; at least in early part 1, even if it was by childish means, Naruto was trying to get Sakura to like him.


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## TItroops (May 31, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> My question from some pages back wasn't answered (no surprises there). I'll throw in another one: can someone explain to me how Naruto holding the hand of the girl who just weeks ago confessed her love for him not romantic? I mean, once upon a time a very preponderant argument was "lol Naruto doesn't know how Hinata feels", "naruHINA" and other crap, so NH moments were just brushed off as one-sided and therefore irrelevant. Now that he does know how she feels, how is his very much positive response to her (reflected on Hinata's increasing confidence about her chances of being with him, which approach certainty at this point) means only "camaraderie" or "Naruto would do that for any of his friends"? Help would be much appreciated.



Too bad, Naruto still wishes for Sakura to be his girlfriend. 




.[/QUOTE]


BatoKusanagi said:


> Deflecting, I see... but do you really not know the meaning of the expression "having feelings for someone"? .
> So either Kakashi is contradicting himself or he's saying Sakura still loves Sasuke (which has been confirmed time and time again by multiple characters). I go with the latter.
> But if it bothers you so much you can read MS' or Viz's translations which translate that line in a more fool-proof way.



Deflecting, I see. Did you know in the very same chapter Madara said to Obito that he had _strong feelings_ for his comrades? So having feelings for people doesn't always mean that. and ROFL urban dictionary, thats some desperate shit.


It seems like their fool proof translation weren't fool proof enough to stop people like you.


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## The Faceless Man (May 31, 2014)

Naruto doesn't want Sakura to be his girlfriend.
Our translator takL cleared that out and said that Naruto meant it as a joke.

Hinata's whole character is based around Naruto and people think kishi will take her only goal away.
Naruhina is unavoidable.


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## Kage (May 31, 2014)

Joke or not it makes NH look bad.

This manga isn't about Hinata and her goals and Kishi sure as hell isn't above humiliating his characters (Female characters especially. Did we already forget about Hinata getting acquainted with the ground.)


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## LesExit (May 31, 2014)

Kage said:


> Joke or not it makes NH look bad.
> 
> This manga isn't about Hinata and her goals and Kishi sure as hell isn't above humiliating his characters (Female characters especially. Did we already forget about Hinata getting acquainted with the ground.)


It was a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. I suppose if one takes it seriously they may think that. However if you brush it off like the joke it was meant to be, it has absolutely no effect on NH whatsoever.

Hinata falling wasn't mean to be a joke. Just cause a character fails at something doesn't mean they should be humiliated XD I understand how people found it funny, though clearly it wasn't supposed to have that effect. I thought the moment was quite sweet, even though she was exhausted she still wanted to get to Naruto. Though I'm pretty sure Kishimoto made her fall simply so NH wouldn't have any more interactions yet, cause it wouldn't made things waaay to obvious beyond what they already are. I wonder if Hinata even knows if he's still alive, well she's off in lala land now so I guess she doesn't have to worry about it yet


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## Kage (May 31, 2014)

*If it was a joke.* Doesn't matter either way as far as I'm concerned because the bottom line is Naruto had an opportunity to associate the idea of a 'girlfriend' with Hinata and didn't.

It wasn't but that doesn't matter either. She tripped over nothing and I'm not sure what her being there would achieve other than starting more pairing drama. Would make things more obvious than it is? The only thing it's made obvious and continues to make obvious is that Hinata's in love with Naruto so much it is literally all she thinks about. Naruto however rarely spares her a thought unless it involves life or death situations. I consider what Naruto feels far more important than what a satellite character like Hinata does. SO until Naruto bothers to make it clear he wants Hinata to be his forever girl she can keep dreaming.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 1, 2014)

I still find it hard to believe that some NH posts really want Naruto to be with Hinata by claiming his comment to Minato was a joke especially when she is nearby when he made that girlfriend comment....

Think about It, NH!  That does not paint Naruto in a good light and Hinata deserves better if that were the case!  It would make Naruto a hypocrite if he were to do that after getting onto Sakura with her fake confession ("you do not fool around with things like that" as in feelings).

His face was dead pan neutral and serious.  At best, the joking part was Sakura's reaction.....Minato even made that horrible parallel (sorry NS posts, but Kushina being compared to Sakura or Hinata like that is an insult to Kushina's character in my opinion) that she reminds him of his wife after witnessing that scene.  He did not sense it as a joke from Naruto's side.

Plus, he has shown jealousy in the next chapter when Sakura noticed Sasuke first when both saved her.  If he still did not like her he would not have felt the need to remind her about how he helped as well.  And he unlike, Sasuke, was concern for Sakura when she was stabbed by Madara and made it a priority to save her.

This does not mean NS is end game, so I fail to see why deny a person's feelings......


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## KamaroTheNinja (Jun 1, 2014)

Just reminder guys,

Naruto's feeling and dreams put *above* everyone else on this manga because he's the main character and this manga tell Naruto journey to achieve his dream.

So..

1. Naruto will become Hokage, no doubt.
2. He will beat Sasuke (Rival) and get acknowledge from him that he's the stronger of the two.
3. Naruto will get the girl he wants, which obviusly Sakura.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 1, 2014)

ch1p said:


> What matters is that suki is "less" stronger than "daisuki". The fact that the character who uses it is the exact same is indicative of a clear measuring of feelings from the author's part or at least how Sai sees it. Considering Sai is the one that is used to gauge Naruto's romantic feelings strenght (since Naruto has never stated them directly besides chapter 3), then his gauging of Sakura's feelings for SAsuke should not be ignored.



That was Naruto's gauging of Sakura's feelings that he used to make his point (Naruto said that she loves Sasuke TWICE before Sai said that she wants to save him from the darkness because she loves him). It doesn't even make sense for someone like Sai to make such distinctions.



> I don't need you to say it. If you think that this is important to him that much, then it needs to be in tandem with his wish to be acknowledged and be Hokage and even save Sasuke, which are without a doubt his greatest desires. Only if that's important can it be considered, especially when it has Sakura and Hinata's character motivations against it, whose romantic feelings are waaay more centred at the core of their characters than Naruto's. If they're not in the same category as wanting to be Hokage or saving Sasuke, then it's not essential to his character and it can be shoved aside.
> 
> Considering Naruto has never likened wanting Sakura's affections is in the same category as wanting to be acknowledged as saving Sasuke (especially funny that it's absent in chapter 4, which was brought to our attention lately), then it's not on the same level at all (not on the level of Sakura's... Sasuke-kun, or Hinata's... well, we'll talk Sunday, but you know what I mean surely). Furthermore, Naruto wanting to make Sakura smile (or protect her smiling face) is out of comradship or out of chivalry. You have no proof that it's because of romantic love and considering Naruto does it while defering to her feelings for another man and has called her a liar when she said she switched her love interests, it's more indicative of what I propose than what you propose. His motivations aren't in tandem with Sakura and Hinata.



His wish to make Sakura happy was always in tandem with his wish to save Sasuke. That's why he made a promise to the girl he loves, and why he thinks of it as motivation despite wanting to save Sasuke for his own sake. Hell, when he was in the hospital after coming back from his failed mission, all he thought about was how he couldn't keep his promise. Even if you think Naruto's feelings are not so essential to his character, they will never be shoved aside for a side character's feelings. In fact, Hinata's feelings were already shoved aside by Naruto saying that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend to his dead father. You don't have that happen, and expect Hinata to get what she wants "once this war is over".  

Wtf? It was heavily implied by Sai that it was really the case of romantic love, and it truly was, to the point of even a person like Sai being able to notice it. Sakura had realized it herself, and felt very pained about it, even placing his strong feelings over her own love for Sasuke. I don't understand why you need more proof.  



> Nope, but that's the issue here. You're convinced that just because someone feels strongly about something, they have to be in love with someone to do it. So many times have I seen 'oh he saved her against Gaara' as if that's a reason, as if he wouldn't help her if he wasn't in love with her. However, that's not the case. People may feel very strongly about others and things, but that doesn't mean they romantically love that person or do those things because of that reason.
> 
> What matters is if the narrative ties things together. In the case of Naruto, his feelings for Sakura were never linked to wanting to protect that smiling face, and when they were (the PoaLT via Sai), Naruto later corrects it and says it has nothing to do with romantic feelings because he wants to save Sasuke himself too. In the case of Sakura, we know saving him from darkness is a wish spurned by her romantic feelings for him (again via Sai and even via Kakashi I know you don't want to accept the translations of 675, but that's the correct interpretation).



When did he say it had nothing to do with his romantic feelings for her? He said that it wasn't *just about* the promise, so his love for Sakura was truly part of his motivation for going there. Why does he have to act solely because of the promise to prove that he is in love her? 

For someone that wants to save Sasuke because of her romantic feelings for him, she definitely doesn't seem to care about saving him nearly as much as Naruto, because to her it's just a duty rather than something she's crazily devoted to like Naruto. Her romantic feelings for Sasuke are not nearly as essential to her character as they were in Part 1. 



> I call it sad what some do with Sakura and Hinata's love, in this very same thread where they state they're guiddy to see them disappointed, and they write their feelings off because they're not Naruto, the main character. I call said because you take Naruto's too seriously. It's understimated because Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are treated as a joke, or treated as him accepting Sakura -> Sasuke is beyond is reach. This is why his feelings don't matter all that, especially not in comparison to Sakura and Hinata.



What's with this bullshit about his feelings for Sakura treated as a joke? The author doesn't take them seriously sometimes (typical shonen hero treatment), but those strong feelings are still there and still matter a lot more to the story than Hinata's feelings for him. 

How does he think Sakura > Sasuke is beyond his reach when he says that she's "more or less" his girlfriend? More than likely he's aware that he has a lot more of a chance with her than he did when he made that promise. 



> I have no idea where you get the feeling Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are fading away. Then again, I asked this question in the beginning of part 2. It's been a mantra since then. It's been decreasing for so long it may underflow soon. You don't want that.  /nerd joke.



Sakura's feelings for Sasuke can only stay the same or regress from chapter 181, 494 chapters before Kakashi stated that her feelings have changed. If he wanted to say that her feelings have matured, he would have said that a long time ago. Why is Kakashi surprised that Sakura still cares about Sasuke after he tried to murder her, when he also tried to murder Naruto and himself who are also part of Team 7? Clearly he's under the assumption that her romantic feelings have regressed.



> Hinata knows what's up. Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are not what NS fans make it out to be. They're not a threat.



"Hinata doesn't know what's up, because there's no evidence of such".

"No fuck you, she knows what's up, and it's not a threat".

You're not even trying to address my point rationally. 



> This penchant for making characters being stupid from NS is becoming meme-worthy. Sakura is stupid for loving Sasuke even after 10 years of disappointments and she's stupid for not loving Naruto even after all that he has done for him. Or for those who believe in Sai's gentle comment or Yamato's comment  how Sakura is too stupid to see that she lubs Naruto. Or how Kakashi is stupid for saying her love has deepened. Or how Hinata is so stupid for not realising that Naruto loves his Sakura-tchan and will never love her. Or how Naruto is so stupid for not realising that Sakura's love for Sasuke is weak and selfish and giving it more importance than his own feelings. Or how Naruto is so very stupid for not rejecting Hinata already and not noticing how douchy he looks like when he gives her silly comments like 'i can read your eyes' and 'you've always been by side' while squeezing her hand, when he's clearly not interested in her.



It's not even a case of stupidity. How the hell is Hinata supposed to know that? Nobody has given me a valid reason for why she would know that.



LesExit said:


> It was a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. I suppose if one takes it seriously they may think that. However if you brush it off like the joke it was meant to be, it has absolutely no effect on NH whatsoever.



The thing is, you're not supposed to brush it off even if it's a joke, because that's ignoring the fact that Naruto still prefers Sakura a lot more than Hinata, even if by small chance he finds Hinata to be appealing.

How long is it supposed to take some people to realize that this was meant to shit on NH?


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 1, 2014)

KamaroTheNinja said:


> Just reminder guys,
> 
> Naruto's feeling and dreams put *above* everyone else on this manga because he's the main character and this manga tell Naruto journey to achieve his dream.
> 
> ...



The last part is just no since it ignores Sakura's feelings .......That is hardly better than NH and SS using the "but she likes him " which ignores the guy's feelings.


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## Corvida (Jun 1, 2014)

> []
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ch1p (Jun 1, 2014)

TItroops said:


> It seems like their fool proof translation weren't fool proof enough to stop people like you.



You seem to be ignoring the fact that I've posted the translations already. 

No matter, I'll post it again. , , , ; takl: , , ,  (all these translations have a slight typo, which is 思い instead of 想い, which doesn't change much, just that the correct raw makes it even more romantic in nature).



The Faceless Man said:


> Naruto doesn't want Sakura to be his girlfriend. Our translator takL cleared that out and said that Naruto meant it as a joke.
> 
> Hinata's whole character is based around Naruto and people think kishi will take her only goal away. Naruhina is unavoidable.



Centring Hinata in Naruto may be unfortunate for Hinata as a character, but it pretty much sets NaruHina in stone.



LesExit said:


> It was a joke and not meant to be taken seriously.



I agree. Hinata doesn't take it seriously, because it's not important for her to be worried about it, since it was not meant to be taken seriously. The only other option is Hinata is stupid because she never noticed Naruto really loves Sakura (when emotionally retarded Sai that hadn't been in the team for long knows this ), doesn't understand the joke herself, or is in denial about NaruSaku, which is just spitefulness from opposing fandoms.



> Hinata falling wasn't mean to be a joke. Just cause a character fails at something doesn't mean they should be humiliated XD I understand how people found it funny, though clearly it wasn't supposed to have that effect.



It wasn't a joke. Naruto was _dying_ and Kishi was pandering to drama over and over again with those chapters. Why would he put a joke in it to break the flow. While it's true that Kishi has terrible sense of humour, it's very rare for him to inject jokes when he's attempting for a scene to be serious.



Elicit94 said:


> That was Naruto's gauging of Sakura's feelings that he used to make his point (Naruto said that she loves Sasuke TWICE before Sai said that she wants to save him from the darkness because she loves him). It doesn't even make sense for someone like Sai to make such distinctions.



Ah yes. Naruto is stupid for giving more importance to Sakura -> Sasuke than Naruto -> Sakura. As I said, meme-worthy. 



> His wish to make Sakura happy was always in tandem with his wish to save Sasuke. That's why he made a promise to the girl he loves, and why he thinks of it as motivation despite wanting to save Sasuke for his own sake. Hell, when he was in the hospital after coming back from his failed mission, all he thought about was how he couldn't keep his promise.



I have never said Naruto wanting Sakura to be happy wasn't done in tandem with his wish to save Sasuke. What I said is that Naruto's wish to make Sakura happy isn't necessarily because he's in love with her. In fact, the fact that he seems to believe she really loves sasuke and is so genuine it's impossible for her to switch her feelings, then he puts those feelings above his own and does the promise out of chivalry and concern for his teammate.



> Even if you think Naruto's feelings are not so essential to his character, they will never be shoved aside for a side character's feelings. In fact, Hinata's feelings were already shoved aside by Naruto saying that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend to his dead father. You don't have that happen, and expect Hinata to get what she wants "once this war is over".



Stop taking a joke so seriously.  THough it's interesting to see, it's either this joke or Naruto is the main character, the reasons as to why Hinata will not get her dream.



> Wtf? It was heavily implied by Sai that it was really the case of romantic love, and it truly was, to the point of even a person like Sai being able to notice it. Sakura had realized it herself, and felt very pained about it, even placing his strong feelings over her own love for Sasuke. I don't understand why you need more proof.
> 
> When did he say it had nothing to do with his romantic feelings for her? He said that it wasn't *just about* the promise, so his love for Sakura was truly part of his motivation for going there. Why does he have to act solely because of the promise to prove that he is in love her?



You seem to be under the impression that just because it's romantic love, then that means they're in the same category. They're not. Naruto has a crush on Sakura, he finds her attractive, but that's as far as it goes. The only times his romantic feelings are touched upon are either jokes or him showing that Sakura -> Sasuke is stronger, or that one with Sai which amounts to the exact same thing as it makes getting with Sakura intangible.

You also seem to be under the impression that Sai didn't imply he forced Sakura's hand or that Naruto didn't tell Sakura and Sai that his reasons for the PoaLT have nothing to with wanting to save Sasuke. I actually had the line checked for me from a translator. It really said 'it has nothing to do with it'.

What I want proof is that Naruto's feelings for Sakura are treated as important as Sakura's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto, both to the respective characters and to the narrative. Unfortunetly to you, NH / SS are the real deal 99% of the time while NS is a joke 99% of the time, so you cannot prove me anything. 



> For someone that wants to save Sasuke because of her romantic feelings for him, she definitely doesn't seem to care about saving him nearly as much as Naruto, because to her it's just a duty rather than something she's crazily devoted to like Naruto. Her romantic feelings for Sasuke are not nearly as essential to her character as they were in Part 1.



You speak as if duty has negative conotations, especially in japan, where duty is _sacred_. I have a duty to my friends, which is to support them when they need it. 



> What's with this bullshit about his feelings for Sakura treated as a joke? The author doesn't take them seriously sometimes (typical shonen hero treatment), but those strong feelings are still there and still matter a lot more to the story than Hinata's feelings for him.



There are plenty of NaruSaku scenes that are positive, but once they have a romantic vibe, they all have a negative twist.  As I've said, they're treated as a joke most of the time, that always end up with Sakura reacting negatively. When they're not a joke, they're to acknowledge that Sakura -> Sasuke >>>>> Naruto -> Sakura. Then there's Sai's flashback, which is NAruto acknowledging that Sakura is out of his reach. Not a single of these romantic scenes hint at a positive romantic resolution.



> How does he think Sakura > Sasuke is beyond his reach when he says that she's "more or less" his girlfriend? More than likely he's aware that he has a lot more of a chance with her than he did when he made that promise.



Tht's one of those scenes that are treated as a joke. Read the whole argument, if you please.



> akura's feelings for Sasuke can only stay the same or regress from chapter 181, 494 chapters before Kakashi stated that her feelings have changed. If he wanted to say that her feelings have matured, he would have said that a long time ago. Why is Kakashi surprised that Sakura still cares about Sasuke after he tried to murder her, when he also tried to murder Naruto and himself who are also part of Team 7? Clearly he's under the assumption that her romantic feelings have regressed.



Kakashi says, quite clearly, that Sakura still loves Sasuke and that her feelings from chapter 3 (the ones being flashbacked to) are quite different, which should be obvious to anyone and only serve as a reminder considering 631 and 540 all have Sakura -> Sasuke as romantic. Please stop attempting to make Kakashi's words to be this fanfic. Refer to the beginning of this post for translations that even include a neutral translator.



> It's not even a case of stupidity. How the hell is Hinata supposed to know that? Nobody has given me a valid reason for why she would know that.



See, I don't classify a character as stupid just to suit my argument.

Hinata has been following Naruto around since she was 6-7. You think she was stupid to have never noticed Naruto's feelings for Sakura. He wasn't particularly a quiet or subtle child. If she doesn't care, it's because they're not a problem, not because she's stupid. How can Hinata not know when socially retard Sai knows. She stalked him everywhere. 

Then there's Naruto himself and who didn't receive Sakura's fake confession well. His attitude was clearly negative and to think that they're actually a couple now, even if more or less, is quite honestly ridiculous. If Naruto makes jokes about her being girlfriend, then he clearly isn't serious, not because he's stupid and has no idea what went down after all.



> The thing is, you're not supposed to brush it off even if it's a joke, because that's ignoring the fact that Naruto still prefers Sakura a lot more than Hinata, even if by small chance he finds Hinata to be appealing.



It is a joke. Naruto's face and reaction in 632 make it as a joke, Sakura's reaction is a joke, Minato's face and reaction is a joke.  NaruSaku fans lash to it so badly because they haven't had anything from Naruto ever since Sai's flashback. That should tell you everything you need to know. The titular character's feelingzzz are brought up as a joke after a long hiatus from the last time, when they weren't even directly mentioned by his own mouth.



> How long is it supposed to take some people to realize that this was meant to shit on NH?



Man, this lolgic. 615 was also meant to shit on NH, after all Naruto took Hinata's hand from his cheek with that ew face stamped all over it. He's clearly rejecting her! Clearly!



Corvida said:


> The last part is the ONLY thing Narusaku has going for it .



This.


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## LesExit (Jun 1, 2014)

Kage said:


> *If it was a joke.* Doesn't matter either way as far as I'm concerned because the bottom line is Naruto had an opportunity to associate the idea of a 'girlfriend' with Hinata and didn't.
> 
> It wasn't but that doesn't matter either. She tripped over nothing and I'm not sure what her being there would achieve other than starting more pairing drama. Would make things more obvious than it is? The only thing it's made obvious and continues to make obvious is that Hinata's in love with Naruto so much it is literally all she thinks about. Naruto however rarely spares her a thought unless it involves life or death situations. I consider what Naruto feels far more important than what a satellite character like Hinata does. SO until Naruto bothers to make it clear he wants Hinata to be his forever girl she can keep dreaming.


It _was_ a joke. It really was. Are we all going to actually act like we can't tell when Kishimoto is writing a comedic moment? They're all cheesy and the same between Naruto and Sakura. Naruto says something dumb, Sakura hits him. Minato looks uncomfortable as hell and relates Sakura's temper and violence to his wife's temper and violence. It had no effect on Hinata because...it's.a.joke. Or is Hinata stupid and still can't tell that the guy she likes is uber in love with Sakura?
Probably because you know....she isn't his girlfriend...

Drama being pairing fans probably, though what exactly would've happened to add drama between the pairings themselves? Sakura performs CPR, a procedure to save the guy Hinata loves, then she gets jealous XD?

It's to be expected that happens a lot, given the story, it's a ninja manga. They've had their quiet moments, and will too after the war. Though the fact that their moments happen in the midst of battle isn't surprising, and not all that bad, it simply makes the moments more powerful. 

.The argument of 'Naruto is main character, therefore gets whatever his little orange wearing ninja mind can think of is' an awful one that uses absolutely no evidence from the actual literary material we're discussing, Naruto. If one must constantly rely on this to keep a pairing afloat, it's probably a sinking ship....

Sakura was never put up on the list of Naruto's goals, his goals are to surpass the Hokage and to be acknowledged by people. It's his dream to be acknowledged that he feels drew him to Sakura , for she wanted to be acknowledged by Sasuke though.



ch1p said:


> Then there's Naruto himself and who didn't receive Sakura's fake confession well. His attitude was clearly negative and to think that they're actually a couple now, even if more or less, is quite honestly ridiculous. If Naruto makes jokes about her being girlfriend, then he clearly isn't serious, not because he's stupid and has no idea what went down after all.


Really this.
How can people honestly think that Naruto was being serious. Cause clearly the last interaction he had with Sakura definitely left him thinking that they were at a good place romantically. Naruto isn't that stupid people 

Furthermore him making a joke is further supported in the next chapter, with him saying he'd stopping poking fun at Sakura.

The fact that people are continuously making this comedic moment out to be evidence of Naruto's undying love for Sakura is ridiculous and such a direct insult to Naruto.


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## Revolution (Jun 1, 2014)

Questions for everyone:

1. What would you do if Sakura* dies*?

2. What would you do if your otp (whatever is is) doesn't not become canon?


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 1, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> Questions for everyone:
> 
> 1. What would you do if Sakura does?



does what? reciprocate naruto's feelings? 
nothing. 
what's done is done. 
it's likely that she might love naruto back, but i feel like it's still far from that point. 




> 2. What would you do if your otp (whatever is is) doesn't not become canon?



don't have an otp.


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## Chabal (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Naruto doesn't want Sakura to be his girlfriend.
> Our translator takL cleared that out and said that Naruto meant it as a joke.



I don't understand how "your translator" can magically clear the ambiguity of the scene and determine Naruto's intention, except if he added "just kidding" at the end of his reply to Minato and that was somehow omitted in the three other translations I've seen. 



> Hinata's whole character is based around Naruto and people think kishi will take her only goal away.



I'm glad you admit Hinata is pairing fodder. What a terrible way to describe a character you supposedly support.

This argument was pretty much destroyed with the latest chapter btw, as Hinata's dream has been given the same focus as other side character's ambitions such as Kiba becoming Hokage or Lee beating Naruto and having Sakura fangirling over him. Except if you're willing to argue Kishimoto is going to make Kiba the 6th Hokage and LeeSaku canon then there's no reasonable justification to Hinata's goal being prioritized over her fellow side characters, and no, "she's my favorite so she should get what she wants" and "they held hands on the volume cover" aren't acceptable arguments.



> Naruhina is unavoidable.



Oh well close the thread then, how could we have all been so mistaken.


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## Revolution (Jun 1, 2014)

I have a bigger question for SasuSaku fans:

Why does Sakura love Sasuke?  After the recent chapter (and the ones preceding), Sakura is thinking more about how Sasuke feels about her then the dire situation.

Then we get this



as a reaction to Sasuke being himself or of the dire situation?

If it's her being sad about Sasuke being himself, then what is the point?  What is the point of a relationship with someone who makes you feel that way?  He's still cool and you love him regardless?  Okay, I guess I follow.  He's cool and good looking and you like the way he does everything.  Too bad for Ino.


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## Kage (Jun 1, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It _was_ a joke. It really was. Are we all going to actually act like we can't tell when Kishimoto is writing a comedic moment? They're all cheesy and the same between Naruto and Sakura. Naruto says something dumb, Sakura hits him. Minato looks uncomfortable as hell and relates Sakura's temper and violence to his wife's temper and violence. It had no effect on Hinata because...it's.a.joke. Or is Hinata stupid and still can't tell that the guy she likes is uber in love with Sakura?
> Probably because you know....she isn't his girlfriend...
> 
> Drama being pairing fans probably, though what exactly would've happened to add drama between the pairings themselves? Sakura performs CPR, a procedure to save the guy Hinata loves, then she gets jealous XD?
> ...



As long people are going to pretend Naruto's banter with Sakura in general isn't lighthearted with a touch of physical violence. It was meant to be funny but not for the reasons a lot are insisting upon. "Uncomfortable" sounds too serious a reaction for a joke. Why should he be uncomfortable being reminded of his wife? her temper wasn't enough to make him so uncomfortable with the idea of being with her or uncomfortable enough to not ask Sakura to continue to take care of his son. It has no effect on Hinata because it's not important to Hinata, only Naruto is important to Hinata. Tunnel vision will do that.

Yes between the fans. As for the characters themselves? well there was a reason she took a dirt nap and it's because she had no place there. Not to stir up drama, not to make herself useful (she's done what she can for him already) not to be the first thing Naruto sees upon waking up cuz I'm sure he wouldn't have jumped straight back into battle if Hinata was there./sarcasm

Excuses. We remember now that they are ninjas doing ninja things but the same doesn't quite cut it for Naruto--->Sakura because he doesn't spend enough time agonizing over his love for her. Their "quiet times" happen less frequently than all the big dramatic life or death moments where Hinata *really* gets Naruto's attention cuz she or somebody else is dying. Time they spend together beyond the war is simply speculation. 

More plausible for the main character of the manga to end up with all he desires than expecting Hinata to have him handed to her because it's vital that Kishi validate her existence for some reason. Sorry, that sounds more awful to me (as both an argument and a genuine belief) than rooting for the hero of this story.

It's not his goal to shack up with Hinata either so why does it matter? Naruto has expressed an interest in romance and has only expressed an interest in one person.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 1, 2014)

So since the last chapter just have to say it, Kishi essentially put Hinata's dream on being with Naruto on the same level of absurdity as Kiba being Hokage. 

Sorry peeps, that's about as blatant as a "Fuck you" to your pairing as it can get, short of Kishi killing Hinata off. 

Unless you all want to make the argument that Hinata's dream will be the exception....


...


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## LesExit (Jun 1, 2014)

Kage said:


> As long people are going to pretend Naruto's banter with Sakura in general isn't lighthearted with a touch of physical violence. It was meant to be funny but not for the reasons a lot are insisting upon. "Uncomfortable" sounds too serious a reaction for a joke. Why should he be uncomfortable being reminded of his wife? her temper wasn't enough to make him so uncomfortable with the idea of being with her or uncomfortable enough to not ask Sakura to continue to take care of his son. It has no effect on Hinata because it's not important to Hinata, only Naruto is important to Hinata. Tunnel vision will do that.
> 
> Yes between the fans. As for the characters themselves? well there was a reason she took a dirt nap and it's because she had no place there. Not to stir up drama, not to make herself useful (she's done what she can for him already) not to be the first thing Naruto sees upon waking up cuz I'm sure he wouldn't have jumped straight back into battle if Hinata was there./sarcasm
> 
> ...


How else could it be meant to be funny? "Uncomfortable sounds too serious" ok XD? Don't know how you want me to explain it. He has a sweatdrop derp face on? More like he's uncomfortable because he realized he was the catalyst of that beatdown, and understands how women can have tempers. His expression is over exaggerated, which makes sense given it's supposed to be an over dramatic comedic scene. Even if Hinata only cares about Naruto(being realistic she doesn't, but literary wise her entire character is basically meant to revolve romantically around Naruto yes), why would that still make the moment not important to her, if it directly involves the person of her affections making a _serious_ confession about his love for another girl. You would think a girl who wants to be by his side, romantically, would feel discouraged. Yet instead we get this 2 chapters later .___. 
Blatantly showing the reader the minuscule amount of importance they should take from that, if they for some reason couldn't already tell.

I agree she had no place. Team 7 had to end up together for their reunion. Hinata would've only serve to conclude pairings even further. Kishimoto didn't need that to happen yet.

It's different for Naruto and Sakura, they're teammates and main characters and we constantly follow them. I was thinking of the proud failure and chunin exam moments as quiet time. People speculate on them having a conversation cause of a flashback HInata had, which I think is pushing it O___O. The manga, even with bonds as a major theme, doesn't go into the rookies spending time together at all, which is unfortunate. Cause I assume they must like at least go get BBQ or whatever it is they eat sometimes XD

It's not my fault if the author created a character who romantically revolves around the main character and has given her nothing but positive development with Naruto. It has nothing to do with her being a side character, Kishimoto has written her character in a way which makes these feelings come out as important and ones that will be addressed. It's not vital he does anything (look at how he's treated shino, tenten, kiba) Kishimoto had every opportunity to stop her feelings at just acknowledgement, he did not. It's more plausible if it's written in a way that says those things will happen.

It matters because you're making an argument that because he's a main character he'll accomplish all his goals. When getting Sakura has never been apart of the goals and dreams definitive of his character. His want to be Hokage(or really just being acknowledged) and bringing back Sasuke, has been portrayed as his goals that he doesn't want to let go of. Sakura has not been displayed this way since Naruto has been shown to let her go, and fully acknowledge that her feelings are solely Sakura>>>Sasuke. I see holding hands and smiling at a girl who confessed her loved to you as showing romantic interest in them, but hey we'll just agree to disagree 


BankaiLegend3135 said:


> So since the last chapter just have to say it, Kishi essentially put Hinata's dream on being with Naruto on the same level of absurdity as Kiba being Hokage.
> 
> Sorry peeps, that's about as blatant as a "Fuck you" to your pairing as it can get, short of Kishi killing Hinata off.
> 
> ...


oooooh no please don't tell me people are actually going to make this argument. Cause clearly just cause it's shown to be something the character wants means it's absurd. LOL at Chouji finding a girl who loves him for who he is, LOL at Mei ever getting married. She's clearly forever alone. LOL at Hinata ending up with Naruto. Cause clearly all those things are on the same level of craziness as Kiba becoming Hokage and having a dog day, or Lee and Gai becoming "cool"
The only thing that is impossible in Hinata's dream is Neji being there. This is an even more desperate argument than the GF moment.


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 1, 2014)

Chabal said:


> I don't understand how "your translator" can magically clear the ambiguity of the scene and determine Naruto's intention, except if he added "just kidding" at the end of his reply to Minato and that was somehow omitted in the three other translations I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the record i don't support hinata I'm just stating the obvious.
takL is NF translator but I understand you must ignorant.
Like you said Hinata was made for paring and her goal is Naruto... not giving her the ending would make her whole character useless. If this happens to Sakura its not a big deal since she still has lee or sasuke.

By the way Sakura part 1 whole character was based around Sasuke.

Dreams or some dreams can happen. Gaara accepted his past he know has Naruto as a friend, Kiba can be a future Hokage after Naruto. Shino can find a bug. Ino can switch minds to entertain herself with Sasuke and Sai. Mei could get married. Tsunade could accept her past. Shikamaru can have a relation without getting married. Lee could defeat/equal Naruto one day with 8 gates.

I'm talking purely on the psychological mind of these characters and their "dreams"

Mods keep this thread for fun and to prevent people from making rants etc. Yeah I do know this.
*PS*. I'm not a nerd or a smartass


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## Chabal (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> For the record i don't support hinata I'm just stating the obvious.
> takL is NF translator but I understand you must ignorant.



I know who takl is. I saw him post in the prediction thread of the Telegrams a couple of weeks ago that he expected a kiss between Sasuke and Sakura soon. I don't know if he was trolling or serious but in both case I wouldn't take his opinion about pairings very seriously.



> Like you said Hinata was made for paring and her goal is Naruto... not giving her the ending would make her whole character useless. If this happens to Sakura its not a big deal since she still has lee or sasuke.



Her character wouldn't be useless if she didn't end up with Naruto because her entire role would have been to act as a part of the romantic subplot. She was created as you say as a way to make things more ambiguous and make people talk, and no matter the outcome she was successful in that role. 



> By the way Sakura part 1 whole character was based around Sasuke.
> 
> Dreams or some dreams can happen. Gaara accepted his past he know has Naruto as a friend, Kiba can be a future Hokage after Naruto. Shino can find a bug. Ino can switch minds to entertain herself with Sasuke and Sai. Mei could get married. Tsunade could accept her past. Shikamaru can have a relation without getting married. Lee could defeat/equal Naruto one day with 8 gates.



Most of these things aren't remotely plausible and you know it. Kiba and Lee are on a different planet compared to Naruto strength and influence wise. Gaara can't get his dead parents back. Ino is never going to get Sasuke and especially Sai (he thinks she's ugly) fighting over her. Others might happen (like Chouji getting a girlfriend) sure, but my point was Hinata isn't any more special than the other rookie 9 and I see no reason why her dream would happen but Ino couldn't get Sasuke to pine after her. What's the reason for such a preferential treatment? What about Karin, wasn't she created specifically for romance and isn't her character all about Sasuke? Does this mean SasuKarin is inevitable?



> PS. I'm not a nerd or a smartass



I hate to break this to you but I'm pretty sure posting on a pairing thread on a Naruto fansite qualifies for nerdom. It's ok though we're all nerds here.


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 1, 2014)

Chabal said:


> I know who takl is. I saw him post in the prediction thread of the Telegrams a couple of weeks ago that he expected a kiss between Sasuke and Sakura soon. I don't know if he was trolling or serious but in both case I wouldn't take his opinion about pairings very seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you know who he is then you know the official translation thread or you can ask him if what Naruto said  was a joke and why.

You're suggesting she is just a plot tool in this triangle but every triangle is solved by everyone getting someone to love. Who would Hinata get ? Like no one would make sense.

I already said how are they possible and the fact that every dream comes from a certain desire or regret. You can treat a regret and the desire dreams where explained by me.
And damn Bijuu's could be set free and Lee would own. There are ways to accomplish their dreams since this manga is full of magic friendship and bonds and asspulls.

Suigetsu likes Karin so she still has a open door. I think someone liked Lee to but can't remember. So everyone has a plan B except Hinata.

I'm doing this cuz I can't sleep right now. I really don't post here and if you ceck my profile pics you would see why I'm not a nerd.


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## Kage (Jun 1, 2014)

LesExit said:


> How else could it be meant to be funny? "Uncomfortable sounds too serious" ok XD? Don't know how you want me to explain it. He has a sweatdrop derp face on? More like he's uncomfortable because he realized he was the catalyst of that beatdown, and understands how women can have tempers. His expression is over exaggerated, which makes sense given it's supposed to be an over dramatic comedic scene. Even if Hinata only cares about Naruto(being realistic she doesn't, but literary wise her entire character is basically meant to revolve romantically around Naruto yes), why would that still make the moment not important to her, if it directly involves the person of her affections making a _serious_ confession about his love for another girl. You would think a girl who wants to be by his side, romantically, would feel discouraged. Yet instead we get this 2 chapters later .___.
> Blatantly showing the reader the minuscule amount of importance they should take from that, if they for some reason couldn't already tell.


Sakura pummeling Naruto because she is angry so hi-larious apparently. Rather than the alternative of _Naruto called Sakura his girlfriend because it's supposed to be funny to his dad/Sakura/the reader._

Yeah a bit nervous and understandably so. Still, Sakura reminded him of his wife whom he is fond of. (don't like the comparison any more than you do cuz Kushina >>>>> Sakura but it is what it is.)

Not even Hinata's dead cousin could discourage her from fapping over Naruto's big strong hand so it's really not unusual to me for her to disregard everything else. She spent years being encouraged (or "saved") by his smile even when he was not smiling at her so again, moot point, tunnel vision etc.



> I agree she had no place. Team 7 had to end up together for their reunion. Hinata would've only serve to conclude pairings even further. Kishimoto didn't need that to happen yet.


The way she concluded it after her confession is what this reminds me of.



> It's different for Naruto and Sakura, they're teammates and main characters and we constantly follow them. I was thinking of the proud failure and chunin exam moments as quiet time. People speculate on them having a conversation cause of a flashback HInata had, which I think is pushing it O___O. The manga, even with bonds as a major theme, doesn't go into the rookies spending time together at all, which is unfortunate. Cause I assume they must like at least go get BBQ or whatever it is they eat sometimes XD


Yes but even still we follow them during their ninja stuff more often than quite time (in the case of Naruto especially lol sakura)



> It's not my fault if the author created a character who romantically revolves around the main character and has given her nothing but positive development with Naruto. It has nothing to do with her being a side character, Kishimoto has written her character in a way which makes these feelings come out as important and ones that will be addressed. It's not vital he does anything (look at how he's treated shino, tenten, kiba) Kishimoto had every opportunity to stop her feelings at just acknowledgement, he did not. It's more plausible if it's written in a way that says those things will happen.


and it's not my fault that she still isn't the main character no matter how often Kishi see's fit to shove her pointless Naruto-kunning in our face. I'm saying you can't be certain he will make something of that just as I can't be completely certain that he won't. What I am sure of is she won't be given priority over Naruto.



> It matters because you're making an argument that because he's a main character he'll accomplish all his goals. When getting Sakura has never been apart of the goals and dreams definitive of his character. His want to be Hokage(or really just being acknowledged) and bringing back Sasuke, has been portrayed as his goals that he doesn't want to let go of. Sakura has not been displayed this way since Naruto has been shown to let her go, and fully acknowledge that her feelings are solely Sakura>>>Sasuke. I see holding hands and smiling at a girl who confessed her loved to you as showing romantic interest in them, but hey we'll just agree to disagree


First off I said "he will get all he _desires_" Not once have I made the argument 'winning Sakura' is a goal of his. Secondly, still don't understand how Hinata being absent from said goals you're putting so much stock in doesn't effect her the way it does Sakura (from what I gather it's because he's been nice to Hinata. Can't imagine why Naruto hasn't been walking around with heart eyes ever since her confession.) 

Romance, let alone one with Sakura, has never been a goal of his or high on the list of his priorities but again he has at least expressed an interest. This only goes back to a point I made earlier with there being so many objections to the very idea of Naruto getting what he wants because there isn't as much confidence as there could be that what he wants is Hinata.

Naruto being considerate of Sakura's feelings hasn't changed his own (he was supposed to have 'let her go' with the Poal right? but in comes part II and he still wants to take her on dates, has his feelings for her confronted by Sai etc) and if he let her go this pairing war should have ended long before this ninja war actually started, alas. I guess we will have to agree to disagree


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## Megu-Nee (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> For the record i don't support hinata I'm just stating the obvious.
> takL is NF translator but I understand you must ignorant.
> Like you said Hinata was made for paring and her goal is Naruto... not giving her the ending would make her whole character useless. If this happens to Sakura its not a big deal since she still has lee or sasuke.
> 
> *By the way Sakura part 1 whole character was based around Sasuke*.


this caught my eye. that's so untrue! how can you compare sakura to hinata (if you're not then i'm sorry for assuming)

sakura back then was a big fangirl yes, but she still had a rivalry with ino, bonded with team 7 and lee.

tsunade only took her in because of this .

*Spoiler*: __


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 1, 2014)

sakura's different from hinata.
sakura didn't revolve around sasuke like hinata did with naruto in part 1 and part 2. 
sakura flat out called sasuke a coward when he was acting like one. 
sakura genuinely cares about naruto. 
sakura wants to be stronger for herself and for her teammates because 'women have to strong in order to survive.'


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## ch1p (Jun 1, 2014)

Chabal said:


> I know who takl is. I saw him post in the prediction thread of the Telegrams a couple of weeks ago that he expected a kiss between Sasuke and Sakura soon. I don't know if he was trolling or serious but in both case I wouldn't take his opinion about pairings very seriously.



Now takl is unreliable? For _years_ he has translated stuff on this forum, for every single subject that people approach him with and receiving nothing in return. This is a new low. Disgusting.  I wish I could neg you 10x times over.



LesExit said:


> oooooh no please don't tell me people are actually going to make this argument. Cause clearly just cause it's shown to be something the character wants means it's absurd. LOL at Chouji finding a girl who loves him for who he is, LOL at Mei ever getting married. She's clearly forever alone. LOL at Hinata ending up with Naruto. Cause clearly all those things are on the same level of craziness as Kiba becoming Hokage and having a dog day, or Lee and Gai becoming "cool". The only thing that is impossible in Hinata's dream is Neji being there. This is an even more desperate argument than the GF moment.



I agree.


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## Chabal (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> If you know who he is then you know the official translation thread or you can ask him if what Naruto said  was a joke and why.



Yes, I will go ask the person who thinks Sasuke is going to kiss Sakura in the upcoming chapter for his opinion about the pairing subplot. Thanks for the suggestion.




> You're suggesting she is just a plot tool in this triangle but every triangle is solved by everyone getting someone to love. Who would Hinata get ? Like no one would make sense.



Who would Ino get? Who would Lee get? Who would Karin get? None of these characters have a plan B. Again, why does Hinata get prioritized? You'll find out the answer to that is simply personal preference. People want Hinata's goal to be realized because they're fans of her. This is completely arbitrary though and doesn't make for a compelling argument.



> I already said how are they possible and the fact that every dream comes from a certain desire or regret. You can treat a regret and the desire dreams where explained by me.
> And damn Bijuu's could be set free and Lee would own. There are ways to accomplish their dreams since this manga is full of magic friendship and bonds and asspulls.



If you have to depower Naruto drastically for this thing to become credible then you're trying to make square pegs fit in round holes. 

I also like now you're stating the manga is full of asspulls but it wouldn't make any sense for Hinata to end up with anyone but Naruto. Which is it?



> Suigetsu likes Karin so she still has a open door. I think someone liked Lee to but can't remember. So everyone has a plan B except Hinata.



... Ok, we're done here. If you have to prop up crack pairings like SuiKa for your argument then there's nothing to discuss. Bye.

tweaks- takL discussion.


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## redragon88 (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> If you know who he is then you know the official translation thread or you can ask him if what Naruto said  was a joke and why.



Would you kindly post the link to where takl refers to Naruto's girlfriend comment as a joke?

I remember he translated the dialogue, but he didn't give any explanations about whether Naruto was joking or not.

If you find the time please do post it.


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 1, 2014)

odango said:


> sakura's different from hinata.
> sakura didn't revolve around sasuke like hinata did with naruto in part 1 and part 2.
> sakura flat out called sasuke a coward when he was acting like one.
> *sakura genuinely cares about naruto*.
> sakura wants to be stronger for herself and for her teammates because 'women have to strong in order to survive.'



As a friend. Its a buddy situation all the time. Kishi even force the buddy route since she lets Sakura hit Naruto... lie to him with love only to protect him.


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 1, 2014)

Chabal said:


> Yes, I will go ask the person who thinks Sasuke is going to kiss Sakura in the upcoming chapter for his opinion about the pairing subplot. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He was joking there. His ironic... you really can't tell ?
Okay then bye.
You could take what you want its not like I force you to believe.

Now I just state the obvious and some possible aspects from a writer perspective.
Yes I'm very emotional. I could careless.



redragon88 said:


> Would you kindly post the link to where takl refers to Naruto's girlfriend comment as a joke?
> 
> I remember he translated the dialogue, but he didn't give any explanations about whether Naruto was joking or not.
> 
> If you find the time please do post it.



You can ask him yourself or search the whole thread if you have the time or even better post that panel in the official thread again and ask him if that is a joke and why....

Its not that hard.


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## redragon88 (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> You can ask him yourself or search the whole thread if you have the time or even better post that panel in the official thread again and ask him if that is a joke and why....
> 
> Its not that hard.



You're the one that claimed *takl *said as such at some point. So the responsibility lies in you to produce the evidence to back up your claim.

If you're unable to do so that mean that what you said are just empty words for the sake of bettering your argument.

If by chance you're lying that means you want me to partake in a wild goose chase for a post that might not even exist.


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## The Faceless Man (Jun 1, 2014)

redragon88 said:


> You're the one that claimed *takl *said as such at some point. So the responsibility lies in you to produce the evidence to back up your claim.
> 
> If you're unable to do so that mean that what you said are just empty words for the sake of bettering your argument.
> 
> If by chance you're lying that means you want me to partake in a wild goose chase for a post that might not even exist.



Or you can simply VM takL. I'm on mobile and I don't feel like searching to a whole thread.
You can belive me or you can verify the info.

And I could say by not verifying the info you are afraid that I am right. 
See how childish it sounds ?


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## redragon88 (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Or you can simply VM takL. I'm on mobile and I don't feel like searching to a whole thread.
> You can belive me or you can verify the info.



I'm not going to do your work for you. You made the claim, you have to prove it.

Until then what you say is nothing but a lie. If you want it to not be a lie then produce the post that you claim you saw.


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## Chabal (Jun 1, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Or you can simply VM takL. I'm on mobile and I don't feel like searching to a whole thread.
> You can belive me or you can verify the info.



I searched the translation thread for "joke", "joking" and "girlfriend" and couldn't find anything about him saying it was a joke.

Are you lying?


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## ch1p (Jun 1, 2014)

Chabal said:


> I searched the translation thread for "joke", "joking" and "girlfriend" and couldn't find anything about him saying it was a joke.
> 
> Are you lying?



I agree with redragon88. The Faceless Man should produce the proof of what he's saying, otherwise he shouldn't have said anything at all.

However, you on the other hand... stop pretending you have the high moral here. As if you care if the post exists or not. You were discrediting the translator way before you asked for proof.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 1, 2014)

I see people still don't understand that there being comedic aspects to a scene doesn't mean that everything said in a scene or the feelings behind things said in a scene are a joke and therefore not meant to be of any value. Are we to think Sasuke saying hes going to be Hokage is a joke, that he meant it as a joke because of the comedic reaction we get from the K12? Are we to considering certain fights of Naruto's like his fight vs Edo Nagato a joke because Kishi forced some comedy in there by making Naruto forget about Nagato's ability to absorb ninjutsu? Naruto is a comedic character and his interactions are usually going to involve comedy in some way. 

Some things that is being failed to understand is why certain scenes have significance or why they have significance over opposing scenes. The 631 GF comment has significance over 615 because it shows that despite 615, Naruto's feelings have not shifted to Hinata and his feelings for Sakura are still there, making 615 not that important in the grand scheme of things. Not that NH is dead because of it, its still rather alive but it makes the chances of it happening lower. As for the "NH cover", I feel its rather repugnant to call it that. That cover was about Neji's death, that was the big moment in that volume. Naruto and Hinata had a comrade bonding over it.

The Sai scene where he points out how Sakura and Naruto don't use the formal titles with each other has significance because he gives it significance by pointing it out. Its called context. It is irrelevant if Sakura doesn't use them with Kiba and Sai(IIRC who ch1p said). To my knowledge, not using them is also a sign of disrespect if you aren't close with the person. Sakura has shown Kiba no respect, given her treatment of him in Iron Country(stomping on his foot, not giving him any thanks for finding Sasuke for her) and her and Sai had a really rough start. 

If you don't understand the reasons a side uses an argument you'll never be able to properly argue against it..


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## Awes (Jun 1, 2014)

Here is Takl's translation :


takL said:


> He asked if sakura was　ナルトの彼女（naruto no Kanojo=naruto’s girlfriend）in the raw.
> Aの彼女 lit means A's 'she'=A's girl =A's girlfriend, not just a girl friend of As
> 
> Minato: don't worry, I'm on your side.
> ...


There you have it, if he thinks or not that's a joke it's just his opinion therefore doesn't hold any more value than anyone's else opinion.


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## Revolution (Jun 2, 2014)

You are lying to yourself if you don't think Naruto and Sakura are not AT LEAST best friends.


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## ch1p (Jun 2, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I see people still don't understand that there being comedic aspects to a scene doesn't mean that everything said in a scene or the feelings behind things said in a scene are a joke and therefore not meant to be of any value. Are we to think Sasuke saying hes going to be Hokage is a joke, that he meant it as a joke because of the comedic reaction we get from the K12? Are we to considering certain fights of Naruto's like his fight vs Edo Nagato a joke because Kishi forced some comedy in there by making Naruto forget about Nagato's ability to absorb ninjutsu? Naruto is a comedic character and his interactions are usually going to involve comedy in some way.
> 
> Some things that is being failed to understand is why certain scenes have significance or why they have significance over opposing scenes. The 631 GF comment has significance over 615 because it shows that despite 615, Naruto's feelings have not shifted to Hinata and his feelings for Sakura are still there, making 615 not that important in the grand scheme of things. Not that NH is dead because of it, its still rather alive but it makes the chances of it happening lower. As for the "NH cover", I feel its rather repugnant to call it that. That cover was about Neji's death, that was the big moment in that volume. Naruto and Hinata had a comrade bonding over it.
> 
> ...



You continue to insist that Naruto's feelings must be taken seriously when the scene used didn't take them seriously. There is no reason to take them seriously, when the context didn't take them seriously.

For example, I didn't take Sakura's in chapter 3 or 4 seriously, Even if her wish for acknowledgement was since, I thought she was being immature and silly. Taking her claims seriously came with development of her feelings and the plot as it went along. Interestingly, Kakashi comments this is the case in 675.

This is something Naruto's *romantic* feelings for Sakura have always lacked. They feel the exact same in chapter 3 as they feel in chapter 631. Even the joke used is a recycle of chapter 34 and with similar results. They have become friends, but there is no development nor growth regarding Naruto's romantic pursuit.

Naruto may still be attracted to Sakura and he may continue forever if that's Kishi's decision. Howver, they are much weaker than Sakura's feelings for Sasuke and as they became friends, Naruto eventually acknowledges them this as the truth. This also doesn't stop Naruto from finding other girls attractive or from pursuing a relationship with other girls, if he feels so inclined. Much like an attraction doesn't stop him from acknowledging Sakura's feelings are stronger, that doesn't stop him from developing stronger feelings for someone else either, which is probably the case of Hinata if his behaviour is to considered.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You continue to insist that Naruto's feelings must be taken seriously when the scene used didn't take them seriously. There is no reason to take them seriously, when the context didn't take them seriously.


You believe that because their is humor in the scene that Naruto's feelings aren't being taken seriously, yet as I proved that is not the case with Kishi's writing. Sasuke was serious about being Hokage, Naruto vs Edo Nagato was a serious fight with serious consequences. There are quite a lot of examples of it throughout the manga really. Something can be said with humor in it and still have serious feelings behind it. Its called being multi-dimensional but I wouldn't expect some people to understand that as they are stuck on hoping that a one-dimensional, one track mind character gets her way.



> For example, I didn't take Sakura's in chapter 3 or 4 seriously


You still shouldn't.



> This is something Naruto's *romantic* feelings for Sakura have always lacked. They feel the exact same in chapter 3 as they feel in chapter 631.


Hardly. The Naruto in chapter 3 isn't the Naruto in the Gaara fight or hospital scene, let alone the Naruto in chapter 631.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You continue to insist that Naruto's feelings must be taken seriously when the scene used didn't take them seriously. There is no reason to take them seriously, when the context didn't take them seriously.
> 
> For example, I didn't take Sakura's in chapter 3 or 4 seriously, Even if her wish for acknowledgement was since, I thought she was being immature and silly. Taking her claims seriously came with development of her feelings and the plot as it went along. Interestingly, Kakashi comments this is the case in 675.
> 
> This is something Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have always lacked. They feel the exact same in chapter 3 as they feel in chapter 631. Even the joke used is a recycle of chapter 34 and with similar results. They have become friends, but there is no development nor growth regarding Naruto's romantic pursuit.



When did he ever acknowledge that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are stronger than his own feelings for her? If you think it was because of her confession to Naruto, then you are definitely stretching it. He only thought of her feelings for Sasuke because she said that she doesn't care about Sasuke since he's a criminal, and he knew he couldn't accept her love confession when she was lying about her feelings for Sasuke. It doesn't really mean anything more than that. It's also strange how you think you can consider his feelings as something lower than Sakura's just because you think he isn't pursuing her that much. He's usually asking her out on dates during his free time in Part 2, and since he no longer has to grab her attention for Sasuke he doesn't even need to step up his game in his romantic pursuit. He has basically been waiting for her to fall for him.


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## Corvida (Jun 2, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 2, 2014)

It's funny because all these dreams were treated as comedic relief, except for Tsunade's and Gaara's who had a few panels more than all the other ones.

Hinata's dream has Neji being overprotective for no reason and Hanabi telling him to shut up. Naruto doesn't even have his arms around Hinata, and kind of looks like he's just there for the hell of it


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## ch1p (Jun 2, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> You believe that because their is humor in the scene that Naruto's feelings aren't being taken seriously, yet as I proved that is not the case with Kishi's writing. Sasuke was serious about being Hokage, Naruto vs Edo Nagato was a serious fight with serious consequences. There are quite a lot of examples of it throughout the manga really. Something can be said with humor in it and still have serious feelings behind it. Its called being multi-dimensional but I wouldn't expect some people to understand that as they are stuck on hoping that a one-dimensional, one track mind character gets her way.



Nope. Comic relief is comic relief. No amount of walls of text will change that.



> You still shouldn't.



675 disagrees with that. 



> Hardly. The Naruto in chapter 3 isn't the Naruto in the Gaara fight or hospital scene, let alone the Naruto in chapter 631.



Naruto would protect Sakura against Gaara even if he wasn't in love with her, or is Sasuke a morally better character than him (because he was ready to sacrifice his life to save her there).

Naruto in the hospital scene recognises his friends need to be left alone, which goes with what I said.

Naruto in chapter 631 (or his attitude towards Sakura in 631) is the exact same as chapter 3.



Elicit94 said:


> When did he ever acknowledge that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are stronger than his own feelings for her? If you think it was because of her confession to Naruto, then you are definitely stretching it. He only thought of her feelings for Sasuke because she said that she doesn't care about Sasuke since he's a criminal, and he knew he couldn't accept her love confession when she was lying about her feelings for Sasuke. It doesn't really mean anything more than that.



All of these: hospital scene, PoaLT, fake confession. All of them have Naruto conceding defeat. The Sai scene is him saying she's out of his reach. This is all NaruSaku has in terms of serious business.



> It's also strange how you think you can consider his feelings as something lower than Sakura's just because you think he isn't pursuing her that much. He's usually asking her out on dates during his free time in Part 2, and since he no longer has to grab her attention for Sasuke he doesn't even need to step up his game in his romantic pursuit. He has basically been waiting for her to fall for him.



Nice try.  I have never said NAruto's feelings are not as important just because he hasn't been pursuing. I have said they're not important because 99% of the time they're treated as a jok, and the 1% that it isn't its either about accept SasuSaku or seeing Sakura as out of his reach.

They're not important because the narrative doesn't consider them important. Take note how many times Naruto's feelingzz for Sakura have come up in this war. Once, to make a joke. Notice how many times Sakura's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto have come up? I'll post a list if you need remembrance.



Elicit94 said:


> It's funny because all these dreams were treated as comedic relief, except for Tsunade's and Gaara's who had a few panels more than all the other ones.



You _laughed_ at Hinata's dream? 



> Hinata's dream has Neji being overprotective for no reason and Hanabi telling him to shut up. Naruto doesn't even have his arms around Hinata, and kind of looks like he's just there for the hell of it



Yeah, I'm sure that's the case, that Naruto isn't interested in Hinata's dreamworld.


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## Corvida (Jun 2, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny because all these dreams were treated as comedic relief, except for Tsunade's and Gaara's who had a few panels more than all the other ones
> ...


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> You continue to insist that Naruto's feelings must be taken seriously when the scene used didn't take them seriously. There is no reason to take them seriously, when the context didn't take them seriously.
> 
> For example, I didn't take Sakura's in chapter 3 or 4 seriously, Even if her wish for acknowledgement was since, I thought she was being immature and silly. Taking her claims seriously came with development of her feelings and the plot as it went along. Interestingly, Kakashi comments this is the case in 675.
> 
> ...



Agreed. 
I also wanna add...you can’t really compare how Naruto behaves towards Sakura, with how Sakura behaves towards Sasuke.

Even tho, Sakura has rejected Naruto he still does gross stuffs like insisting on calling her his girlfriend when they’re not even dating nor has she shown romantic interest. In comparison, Sakura don't go around calling Sasuke her boyfriend and Kakashi stated that her love for him is different/stronger than how it was in chapter 4.  

The thing is, Sakura has grown from how she was in chapter 3 and chapter 4, meanwhile Naruto is still very self-centered and immature when it comes to her.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 2, 2014)

Awes said:


> what the fuck are you talking about ? I'm not Chabal besides what he said is right takl's *opinion* has no more value than anyone else.



that you are right

but his translations are not wrong, that's different


----------



## Awes (Jun 2, 2014)

And where did I say that ?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Nope. Comic relief is comic relief. No amount of walls of text will change that.


So you don't have an actual rebuttal to the point I made about Sasuke saying he wanted to be Hokage or many other serious moments in the manga with comic relief put into them? Got it. Concession accepted. 



> Naruto would protect Sakura against Gaara even if he wasn't in love with her


ch1p, please don't play dumb and try to act as if you didn't know what I was talking about or at least not think that my point would be him protecting her=his love for her has evolved. The fight was given romantic context by Gamakichi and Naruto's flashback of Sakura having him asking her "Wouldn't you rather know what my feelings for you are?". His determination in that fight based off of that is what I was talking about.



> Naruto in the hospital scene recognises his friends need to be left alone, which goes with what I said.


Ah the delusional Sasuke reciprocated Sakura's feelings in the hospital scene theory or at the least, the theory that Naruto believed that Sasuke reciprocated her feelings(also rather delusional). I wouldn't expect either of the other two pairings to understand the strength of feelings growing based off of actual regular interaction, with the two talking(for Sasuke sure as hell didn't talk to Sakura much, she said it herself after all) and having positive development(instead of the negative between SS). The Naruto in chapter 3 who only knew Sakura as a cute classmate definitely has the same romantic feelings for Sakura as the hospital scene Naruto, who had had months of being on the same team with her. Gaining more familiarity and knowledge on someone you already had affection for, when they show traits that you respect and admire, couldn't possibly strengthen feelings. 

The Naruto in chapter 3 is the same Naruto who would steal a kiss from Sakura disguised as Sasuke. That selfishness alone in opposition to his later selflessness makes the claim that his feelings feel the same rather absurd, let alone including what I said above. Yet if we are going just by what we feel, Sakura is still the same as she was in chapter 3 in regards to Sasuke in so far that she regresses to her part 1 self in his presence. In part 2, she embraced inner Sakura and it became a part of her every day outward self, the strong, fierce stubborn woman who has a mischievous/silly side to her. In Sasuke's presence, that disappears. She has never been her true self around him, which is just one of many, many reasons I find SS morally repugnant and can't understand how anyone whose even remotely a fan of Sakura's can ship it.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 2, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Agreed.
> I also wanna add...you can’t really compare how Naruto behaves towards Sakura, with how Sakura behaves towards Sasuke.
> 
> Even tho, Sakura has rejected Naruto he still does gross stuffs like insisting on calling her his girlfriend when they’re not even dating nor has she shown romantic interest. In comparison, Sakura don't go around calling Sasuke her boyfriend and Kakashi stated that her love for him is different/stronger than how it was in chapter 4.
> ...



The inconsistent logic is amazing. Naruto is naturally a light-hearted individual and will try a light-hearted approach to anything when he can, particularly on sensitive matters as an attempt to soften the emotional blow. Yet he's shown far more emotional maturity when necessary to a number matters in contrast to Sakura, and that includes the matter of his feelings, and those of others which include her own. It has been made more than clear that beneath that facade he takes things very seriously on matters of emotion in particular. His mark of emotional maturity compared to Sakura at least, is in his ability to connect with a greater deal of people and understand their feelings. An ability to understand the nature and depth of feelings the individual may have on a particular matter. An ability Sakura lacks, most notably with Sasuke himself. I am simply amazed that one that insists on the idea of Sasuke and Sakura getting together can be oblivious or simply in denial to the wildly inconsistent logic that goes on in making these kinds of shitty arguments.

Naruto is an enormously flawed character, dislikable in many ways...but I find it amazing this demonization of him by those that support SasuSaku of all things. Like seriously. The guy can kill the girl three times but it's ok because he'll change and somehow that makes it acceptable; yet the outrage at any minor action Naruto may do.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 2, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Agreed.
> I also wanna add...you can?t really compare how Naruto behaves towards Sakura, with how Sakura behaves towards Sasuke.
> 
> Even tho, Sakura has rejected Naruto he still does gross stuffs like insisting on calling her his girlfriend when they?re not even dating nor has she shown romantic interest. In comparison, Sakura don't go around calling Sasuke her boyfriend and Kakashi stated that her love for him is different/stronger than how it was in chapter 4.
> ...



Jesus Christ, can your confirmation bias get any more blatant? 

 This Is the same guy who at chapter 3 went from going to impersonate Sasuke for selfish gain, to stepping aside when Sakura hugged Sasuke. Sorry, but no. Naruto cares about Sakura's happiness. Nothing More, Nothing less.  




> Nope. Comic relief is comic relief. No amount of walls of text will change that.



*Yawn*  You mean because comic relief doesn't support your pairing *that's* why it changes nothing? Get the fuck out with that shit. You're not fooling anyone. 


> This is something Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have always lacked. They feel the exact same in chapter 3 as they feel in chapter 631. Even the joke used is a recycle of chapter 34 and with similar results. They have become friends, but there is no development nor growth regarding Naruto's romantic pursuit.



.....

......

Same....as Chapter 3? Really? REALLY?  The Naruto of Chapter 3 would've accepted her fake confession without the slightest bit of hesitation. Yet, he rejected it because he knew she was lying and he didn't want to her to settle for him. That's called character development. 



> They're not important because the narrative doesn't consider them important. Take note how many times Naruto's feelingzz for Sakura have come up in this war. Once, to make a joke. Notice how many times Sakura's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto have come up? I'll post a list if you need remembrance.



Once to make a POINT. 

Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have ALL been put in a negative light. She doesn't trust him, he doesn't give a single crap about her and to top it off, she supports Naruto to be Hokage, not him. These two don't even have healthy human interaction, yet you've deluded yourself into believing somehow not only will they get in a relationship, but it will actually be healthy and not emotionally abusive, as Sasuke has demonstrated countless times?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 2, 2014)

Yes, it's clear SasuSaku has no redeeming qualities. It's little more than vicarious fantasy at this point. Anyone arguing in its favor really has no position to express disgust or outrage at anything else considering what has been excused with this pairing, and what has been defended. YES that includes most notably the murder attempts; because that pretty much closes the book on the entire matter, and is really the only reason needed to.

The false indignation over Naruto's antics, or even trying to paint him as a sexist of all things, where the contrast is clearly implied Sasuke is of a more or will be at least, of a more virtuous nature...it's just hilariously deluded.


----------



## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 2, 2014)

Whoops. Triple post.


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## Kage (Jun 2, 2014)

Comic relief can never be used to illustrate a more serious point in the grand scheme of things cuz "context" says it's just for funnies.

Yet all the panels (all = majority of the time-skip for clarification) of Sakura looking like she's on the verge of tears (and sometimes in actual tears) when basking in her super srs feelings for Sasuke mean *nothing* because "context" is only pushing how much she loves him??

Well this doesn't seem suspect at all!


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## ch1p (Jun 2, 2014)

Awes said:


> And where did I say that ?



If you weren't, then you weren't. My problem was with Chabal's bulshit, nothing more.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you don't have an actual rebuttal to the point I made about Sasuke saying he wanted to be Hokage or many other serious moments in the manga with comic relief put into them?



What do you want me to rebut? Sasuke wanting to be Hokage was a joke in chapter 632. It only became serious business once he died and that was all he could think about. That's what I feel about it anyway.



> Got it. Concession accepted.



How funny. I'm imagining you saying this outloud and then nodding to yourself as you click reply. 



> ch1p, please don't play dumb and try to act as if you didn't know what I was talking about or at least not think that my point would be him protecting her=his love for her has evolved. *The fight was given romantic context by Gamakichi and Naruto's flashback of Sakura having him asking her "Wouldn't you rather know what my feelings for you are?".* His determination in that fight based off of that is what I was talking about.



Yeah, another joke. I don't care.



> Ah the delusional Sasuke reciprocated Sakura's feelings in the hospital scene theory or at the least, the theory that Naruto believed that Sasuke reciprocated her feelings(also rather delusional). I wouldn't expect either of the other two pairings to understand the strength of feelings growing based off of actual regular interaction, with the two talking(for Sasuke sure as hell didn't talk to Sakura much, she said it herself after all) and having positive development(instead of the negative between SS). The Naruto in chapter 3 who only knew Sakura as a cute classmate definitely has the same romantic feelings for Sakura as the hospital scene Naruto, who had had months of being on the same team with her. Gaining more familiarity and knowledge on someone you already had affection for, when they show traits that you respect and admire, couldn't possibly strengthen feelings.



That's nice, but friendship is not teh same as romance. You insist that it is, but I don't see where there is any indication that this is the case.



> The Naruto in chapter 3 is the same Naruto who would steal a kiss from Sakura disguised as Sasuke.  That selfishness alone in opposition to his later selflessness makes the claim that his feelings feel the same rather absurd, let alone including what I said above.



And stating that Sakura is his girlfriend when she clearly isn't, what would you call it? It's either him fucking around, or he's saying they're dating without consulting her and that's selfish.



> Yet if we are going just by what we feel, Sakura is still the same as she was in chapter 3 in regards to Sasuke in so far that she regresses to her part 1 self in his presence. In part 2, she embraced inner Sakura and it became a part of her every day outward self, the strong, fierce stubborn woman who has a mischievous/silly side to her. In Sasuke's presence, that disappears. She has never been her true self around him, which is just one of many, many reasons I find SS morally repugnant and can't understand how anyone whose even remotely a fan of Sakura's can ship it.



I disagree. Kakashi clearly disagrees in 675 as well.



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> *Yawn*  You mean because comic relief doesn't support your pairing *that's* why it changes nothing? Get the fuck out with that shit. You're not fooling anyone.



Pftt, I don't need to fool anyone here. What I say is the truth. If you want to wallow in denial that's not my problem.



> Same....as Chapter 3? Really? REALLY?  The Naruto of Chapter 3 would've accepted her fake confession without the slightest bit of hesitation. Yet, he rejected it because he knew she was lying and he didn't want to her to settle for him. That's called character development.



Naruto's treats his *romantic* feelings for Sakura the same way as chapter 3, yeah. It may not look the same to you, but tell me again how 631 is different from 34? Go on.

Their friendship is another ball park altogether.



> Once to make a POINT.



The point was a joke. 



> Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have ALL been put in a negative light. She doesn't trust him, he doesn't give a single crap about her and to top it off, she supports Naruto to be Hokage, not him. These two don't even have healthy human interaction, yet you've deluded yourself into believing somehow not only will they get in a relationship, but it will actually be healthy and not emotionally abusive, as Sasuke has demonstrated countless times?



Yeah, but she loves him. Sai said so. Kishi said so (after the fake confession). Sakura said so. Kakashi said so. All of these were taken seriously. On the other ahnd NaruSaku's confirmation is a joke. Sorry, but I'm not going to treat them the same when they clearly are not.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes, it's clear SasuSaku has no redeeming qualities.



You should make a script to post for you instead of bothering to type this every time.


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## Corvida (Jun 2, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> An ability to understand the nature and depth of feelings the individual may have on a particular matter.



Including Sakura?s false, shallow and selfish ones?



> Kage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 2, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Jesus Christ, can your confirmation bias get any more blatant?
> 
> This Is the same guy who at chapter 3 went from going to impersonate Sasuke for selfish gain, to stepping aside when Sakura hugged Sasuke. Sorry, but no. Naruto cares about Sakura's happiness. Nothing More, Nothing less.



Even if he knows she doesn?t love him, it doesn?t stop him from falsely claiming she?s his girlfriend more than once. 

So, i don't buy the "he put her feelings first" theory.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> What do you want me to rebut? Sasuke wanting to be Hokage was a joke in chapter 632. It only became serious business once he died and that was all he could think about. That's what I feel about it anyway.


So you are trying to claim that Sasuke wasn't serious when he said it? 




> How funny. I'm imagining you saying this outloud and then nodding to yourself as you click reply.


Interesting considering I found myself imagining you plugging your ears and saying "lalalalala, not listening" during your last reply. 




> Yeah, another joke. I don't care.


You can keep continuing to not care because you have some weird belief that comedy somehow inherently makes everything around it non-serious and without value. I would love to see you read a lot of different books or play a lot of different games because with this mindset you'll totally not be able to understand so many characters. Alistair from Dragon Age would totally go over your head. It would be quite entertaining.

The "joke argument" only applies to Gamakichi's GF comment by the way, not Naruto's flashback.



> That's nice, but friendship is not teh same as romance. You insist that it is, but I don't see where there is any indication that this is the case.


I never insisted that friendship and romance are the same. I am saying that Naruto's feelings towards Sakura were romantic in nature and therefore said romantic feelings would grow stronger from chapter 3 to the hospital scene to now, which is why your belief that they are the same as they were in chapter 3 is one of the most absurd things ever said in one of these threads.





> And stating that Sakura is his girlfriend when she clearly isn't, what would you call it? It's either him fucking around, or he's saying they're dating without consulting her and that's selfish.


Depends on how you interpret the scene. He didn't say yes. My view is that he was wanting to tell his father that he has romantic feelings for Sakura while still trying to answer the question, so he said "something like that".




> I disagree. Kakashi clearly disagrees in 675 as well.


Based on your interpretation sure


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 2, 2014)

TheDivineOneDannii said:


> Even if he knows she doesn’t love him, it doesn’t stop him from falsely claiming she’s his girlfriend more than once.
> 
> So, i don't buy the "he put her feelings first" theory.



This is that cognitive dissonance I was talking about earlier. 

What the hell did Sasuke do just last chapter? What the hell has he done all throughout Part II? He has either completely disregarded or stomped all over her feelings, and she was none the better for it. He has tried to kill her multiple times, in cold blood, which is the most blatant way of discarding the worth of an individual. 

Naruto makes jokes and *this* is what gets them angry. Yet I think it doesn't take any shipper to see why. It is infuriating not because what Naruto is doing, it's because Naruto is doing them. Things that  are expected and desired that Sasuke does. 

When Naruto saves Sakura from mortal danger? He's a sexist trying to put her back in the kitchen.

When Sasuke saves Sakura from mortal danger? It's proof of his tender, hidden feelings.

When Naruto makes a joke about her being his girlfriend? He has zero sensitivity for her feelings.

When Sasuke completely steps over her esteem and self-worth? Oh, he's just offering constructive criticism! He's always been blunt, so why should she (Sakura) be upset?

I think you guys see what I'm getting at here. SasuSaku is riddled with, and defined by its hypocrisy, selectivity, and inconsistency.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> All of these: hospital scene, PoaLT, fake confession. All of them have Naruto conceding defeat. The Sai scene is him saying she's out of his reach. This is all NaruSaku has in terms of serious business.


He isn't conceding defeat because her feelings are stronger. During the whole of Part 1 he had been trying a lot harder to get her attention because of Sasuke being there. What can he really do if after all this time his pursuits seemed to be going nowhere (hospital scene)? Maybe hide his pain and try to please her in a different way (PoaLt). The chapter cover of 236 implies that he's definitely in love with her (as in his feelings for her being just as strong or perhaps even stronger), but that he lost hope in his pursuits. Also, him conceding to "Sakura's stronger feelings" during the "fake" confession is an exaggerated view of the scene.



> Nice try.  I have never said NAruto's feelings are not as important just because he hasn't been pursuing. I have said they're not important because 99% of the time they're treated as a jok, and the 1% that it isn't its either about accept SasuSaku or seeing Sakura as out of his reach.


You're exaggerating. 



> They're not important because the narrative doesn't consider them important. Take note how many times Naruto's feelingzz for Sakura have come up in this war. Once, to make a joke. Notice how many times Sakura's feelings for Sasuke or Hinata's feelings for Naruto have come up? I'll post a list if you need remembrance.


Hinata is a satellite character so what else can you expect from her? 

Now that Sakura is fighting along side Naruto, it's an almost definite possibility that his feelings for Sakura will be brought up in a serious way again.



Corvida said:


> Neji.
> 
> overprotective .
> 
> The one who atoned for almost killing Hinata in part one  choosing to die protecting her.


On her date with Naruto though? 

It was like a homage to Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth, where NaruHina is always treated like a joke.


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## ch1p (Jun 2, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you are trying to claim that Sasuke wasn't serious when he said it?



Nice try. 

What I'm saying is that people help others without it being for romantic reasons. I don't think Sasuke wanted to save Sakura for romantic reasons, OTP non withstanding. She was important to him, so he'd help her. Similarly, I don't think Naruto is saving Sakura because he has a crush on her. He'd have that same strenght and determination to save her even if he didn't have said crush. See, she was important to him, so he'd help her.



> Interesting considering I found myself imagining you plugging your ears and saying "lalalalala, not listening" during your last reply.



Why would I need listen when we're writing our arguments?



> You can keep continuing to not care because you have some weird belief that comedy somehow inherently makes everything around it non-serious and without value. I would love to see you read a lot of different books or play a lot of different games because with this mindset you'll totally not be able to understand so many characters. Alistair from Dragon Age would totally go over your head. It would be quite entertaining.



I have not said comedy makes everything non-serious. What I've said is that NaruSaku is 99% comedy, and 1% serious. And that 1% serious is Naruto admitting Sakura -> Sasuke is just that strong or to say Sakura is unreachable. This is what makes it clear that Naruto's feelings aren't as serious as Sakura's or Hinata's. He's either fooling around or he's admiting defeat. Narrative doesn't care that 99% of the time and when it actually cares, it's to remember the audience on how it's a dead end.



> The "joke argument" only applies to Gamakichi's GF comment by the way, not Naruto's flashback.



That's nice, but she's his friend, as I've said. He would have saved her even if he hadn't a crush on her.



> I never insisted that friendship and romance are the same. I am saying that Naruto's feelings towards Sakura were romantic in nature and therefore said romantic feelings would grow stronger from chapter 3 to the hospital scene to now, which is why your belief that they are the same as they were in chapter 3 is one of the most absurd things ever said in one of these threads.



No, you are insisting that they are the same. You are insisting Naruto saved Sakura out of romantic thoughts, when it's non eof the sort. When he actually got his biggest incentive to save Sakura when Sasuke did his speech to help her, and that speech wasn't romantic in nature. Naruto flashbacked to all those people protecting what was important to them and not all (if any, oh wait Sakura -> Sasuke was there) thought of romantic bonds.



> Depends on how you interpret the scene. He didn't say yes. My view is that he was wanting to tell his father that he has romantic feelings for Sakura while still trying to answer the question, so he said "something like that".



It's a joke.



> Based on your interpretation sure



Oh wow. _Really_?





> In any case I'm putting you on ignore list.



Too bad you're still bad mouthing me on other places. 



Elicit94 said:


> He isn't conceding defeat because her feelings are stronger. During the whole of Part 1 he had been trying a lot harder to get her attention because of Sasuke being there. What can he really do if after all this time his pursuits seemed to be going nowhere (hospital scene)? Maybe hide his pain and try to please her in a different way (PoaLt). The chapter cover of 236 implies that he's definitely in love with her (as in his feelings for her being just as strong or perhaps even stronger), but that he lost hope in his pursuits. Also, him conceding to "Sakura's stronger feelings" during the "fake" confession is an exaggerated view of the scene.



he is conceding defeat. In the hospital scene, he left them. In the PoaLT, he promised he'd get Sasuke back for Sakura. In the Sai flashback, he thinks Sakura is out of reach. In the fake confession, he sees no way for Sakura to fall in love with him. It's all defeated scenarios. All and every single one of them.

Chapter cover, chapter cover. Should I go get the chapter cover that hints that Sasuke would be okay with a relationship with Sakura if not for revenge because 'he threw away love' and yada yada yada. Focus on what's the manga, not some cover chapter that was well over 400 chapers ago.

Naruto wants to protect Sakura yes. But he doesn't do it out of romantic affection. People don't protect oithers out of romantic affection. They protect others because they have a bond with them. You're attempting to inject some credibility into Naruto's feelings because there simply isn't any on canon.



> You're exaggerating.



Nope.



> Hinata is a satellite character so what else can you expect from her?



I'm not like NaruSaku who expects her to be discarded like used toilet paper.



> Now that Sakura is fighting along side Naruto, it's an almost definite possibility that his feelings for Sakura will be brought up in a serious way again.





Yes yes, this time. This time it will happen. For _sure_.




> On her date with Naruto though?



What date? The one they talked about Sasuke? As usual Sasuke is the third wheel of the NaruSaku relationship. Or the one where she wanted to mooch a free meal out of him as much as she wanted to mooch a free meal out of kakashi. She wants some hot ass teacher? Can't say I blame her.



> It was like a homage to Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth, where NaruHina is always treated like a joke.



So is NaruSaku.


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## C-Moon (Jun 2, 2014)

> Should I go get the chapter cover that hints that Sasuke would be okay with a relationship with Sakura if not for revenge because 'he threw away love' and yada yada yada.


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> he is conceding defeat. In the hospital scene, he left them. In the PoaLT, he promised he'd get Sasuke back for Sakura. In the Sai flashback, he thinks Sakura is out of reach. In the fake confession, he sees no way for Sakura to fall in love with him. It's all defeated scenarios. All and every single one of them.


It's not in the way of "because her feelings for Sasuke are way stronger than my feelings for her". That's pretty delusional. 



> Chapter cover, chapter cover. Should I go get the chapter cover that hints that Sasuke would be okay with a relationship with Sakura if not for revenge because 'he threw away love' and yada yada yada. Focus on what's the manga, not some cover chapter that was well over 400 chapers ago.
> 
> Naruto wants to protect Sakura yes. But he doesn't do it out of romantic affection. People don't protect oithers out of romantic affection. They protect others because they have a bond with them. You're attempting to inject some credibility into Naruto's feelings because there simply isn't any on canon.


It was always said that he appreciated Sakura's love, but since he didn't feel the same way (at all) he couldn't reciprocate. 

The manga already shows how he "wanted to protect that smiling face" from the Kage Summit arc, but you refuse to acknowledge it. 

"People don't protect others out of romantic affection"

Seriously? Rock Lee wasn't protecting Sakura out of romantic affection? That was the first thing he wanted to do upon first meeting Sakura. This is a pretty absurd claim,  but all you really need is the manga to disprove it. 



> I'm not like NaruSaku who expects her to be discarded like used toilet paper.


That means not ending up with Naruto right?



> Yes yes, this time. This time it will happen. For _sure_.


It happened in 631, but people continue to deny it as a joke. 



> So is NaruSaku.


NaruSaku wasn't the one reduced to a mere dream 

Edit: Wait so... that caption was just a fake? Hilarious.


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## Chabal (Jun 2, 2014)

Even if that cover genuinely said Sasuke "threw away love" it's quite a desperate stretch to conclude it meant he was fine with a romantic relationship with Sakura. There's different types of love and love in general is a concept that's been mentioned in Naruto multiple times without having anything to do with romance. Examples include Gaara's uncle telling him love heals wounds (he wasn't talking about any girl here, and indeed Gaara was saved by Naruto and later by knowing his parents loved him all along) or how Jinchuurikis like Kushina or Naruto had to be filled with love by other people (Mito for Kushina and Kushina herself for Naruto) to accept their fate. And EVEN if it meant Sasuke threw away romantic love, it says nothing about him reciprocating and just serves as a confirmation Sakura had romantic feelings for him and he threw them in the trash can. So really what a terrible argument.


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 3, 2014)

> In short, Sasuke left Sakura so she could live her life away from Sasuke's hell. He loved her.



sasuke left not just sakura, but the whole village for the sake of his selfish desires. 
sasuke never loved sakura.
sasuke never loved anyone but himself and his clan. 
if sasuke truly loved sakura, the opposite should've happened: sasuke should've abandoned all of his past and his selfish desires just to be with her. 
but he didn't, and the result is clear now. 
sasuke doesn't love sakura back, and it won't matter anymore if sakura still loved sasuke the same way she did before. 
in fact, sasuke doesn't know what love is. 
sasuke chases after power, and that will never fulfill him in the end. 
even if he found what he was looking for, he will remain hungry and cold as he did on that uchiha massacre night. 


when sasuke said 'thank you' to sakura on that night, it should've been clear to the audience that he was *rejecting* her rather than embracing her love for him.


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## Chabal (Jun 3, 2014)

The romanticized idea Sasuke rejected Sakura because he wanted to protect her was already destroyed by his attempts on her life and by his general apathy towards her physical well being now. Otherwise you've got to argue he's really really really good at hiding his feelings and I'm sure that's not something people who often ridicule the idea of Sakura having ambiguous feelings for Naruto would do.

In any case it's against the rules to discuss other mangas and this particular manga was published in 2007 long after Sasuke left Konoha so I'm not sure why it's even mentioned as Kishimoto couldn't possibly have used it as inspiration.


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## Revolution (Jun 3, 2014)

odango said:


> sasuke left not just sakura, but the whole village for the sake of his selfish desires.
> sasuke never loved sakura.
> sasuke never loved anyone but himself and his clan.
> if sasuke truly loved sakura, the opposite should've happened: sasuke should've abandoned all of his past and his selfish desires just to be with her.
> ...



Oh my god!

For his selfish desires?

Go back and see what happened to him.

He finds Itachi after 5 years only to be broken and brainwashed into a coma that flipped him from a friend who wanted to save Naruto to an angry mental patient who tried to kill Naruto on the hospital rooftop.  Did Naruto, Sakura, or even Jiraya save him?  Nope.

The village failed him and he had no way to escape Itachi's (which we later learn is Konoha's) hell and torment.  

It was the only desperate option.  Kakashi abandoned Sasuke while he supported Shikamaru in revenge.

I don't care what you say about SasuSaku because Sasuke had no choice.

(And SasuSaku time has already passed)


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 3, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> Oh my god!
> 
> For his selfish desires?
> 
> ...




sasuke had a choice. 
everything that he did up to now was his choice. 
we see how kishi portrays sasuke in the manga. 
sasuke decided to avenge his clan. 
sasuke decided to listen to the four hokages before making his next move.
sasuke decided to fight naruto but not kill him. 
sasuke decided to leave the village. 
sasuke decided to form team taka. 
sasuke decided to 'kill' orochimaru. 
sasuke decided to seek power. 
sasuke decided to kill danzo. 


sasuke could've easily walked away from his clan's cycle of hatred, but instead chose to become enslaved by it. 
what sasuke never realized was that there was such thing as love outside of his clan, and that he can start everything all over again with plans other than revenge and hatred. 

what sasuke doesn't see is that people are trying to help him, but he refuses to understand them. 
he could've even easily picked sakura over his past, but he refused her. 
naruto tried to lend his hand out million times, but sasuke's always saying, 'fuck you' and 'what the fuck is wrong with you?!' 
kakashi gave him advice in part 1, but he refused to listen in the end. 


saying that sasuke had no choice is like saying that sasuke is someone's puppet or a brainless dog who can't overcome his fate.


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 3, 2014)

If there was any indication that Sasuke could possibly have romantic feelings for Sakura, it would be when she confessed, but there wasn't a single thing.


----------



## Corvida (Jun 3, 2014)

> [/QUOTE=Elicit94;50835893]
> 
> On her date with Naruto though?


Awwww, come on you should have seen the indignant comentsof NEJI HAD TO DIE FOR A PALTRY  NARUHINA MOMENT!!!Neji ended his redemption line atoning for his atempt on Hinata?s life. Nej even trained Hinata, so he lked big bro Neji idea pretty much.



> It was like a homage to Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth, where NaruHina is always treated like a joke.


 

And Neji always end travestited, I know.
And the point is? Have I agreed anytime in considering the rookies, Shika, Choji Lee or  their dreams as jokes?

 Havent you noticed that the  refence to the spin off series on Hinata?s perfectly peaceful dream  is and that?s stretching it, is big bro mode Neji,the common link with Lee and Ten Ten?s dreams? Hadnt occured to you that his sister  and teammates could miss him a Little  in the back of   their minds?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 3, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Nice try.
> 
> What I'm saying is that people help others without it being for romantic reasons. I don't think Sasuke wanted to save Sakura for romantic reasons, OTP non withstanding. She was important to him, so he'd help her. Similarly, I don't think Naruto is saving Sakura because he has a crush on her. He'd have that same strenght and determination to save her even if he didn't have said crush. See, she was important to him, so he'd help her.


Are you confusing the two discussions? The quote you were responding to had me asked about whether or not Sasuke was serious when he said he wanted to be Hokage in 631, this doesn't work as a reply to that. Not that you could have an actual rebuttal since while the reaction of a good deal of others was comedic, he was totally serious(as he always is). 




> No, you are insisting that they are the same. You are insisting Naruto saved Sakura out of romantic thoughts, when it's non eof the sort.


No thats what you are trying to twist my words into being what I am insisting to try and make me out as a bad person who would think Naruto would only protect someone if he wants to bang them. Such is not the case and would be clear to anyone without an agenda who actually took the time to read my arguments, especially if they also read my debate with sapikcan earlier in the thread or just in general have seen my stances and views.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you're saying that Naruto would put in 100% effort from anyone whose his friend, thats something that for the most part is true. Naruto is still human though(or at least was in part 1 before he became Jesus), so people hes closer to would evoke more of a reaction out of him., especially when his saving Sakura in that fight was given romantic context by the author.
> 
> Though you yourself went against your own argument by suggesting that if it was Sasuke or Hinata in Sakura's position he would have had a stronger reaction and therein lies the problem.



He would have saved her even without pre-established romantic feelings, just like most heroes in these types of stories would. Like those heroes before him though, Naruto got extra determination from it being his love interest in danger. Its a rather common thing in these sorts of works, the "Damsel in Distress" trope. I wouldn't apply it to the Gaara fight if it wasn't for Kishi giving it romantic context twice in the actual fight(Gamakichi's main squeeze comment, ) then also giving it some romantic context when Sakura tries to thank Sasuke for saving her from Gaara and he corrects her that it was Naruto(this is based off her somewhat blush when thanking Sasuke then her expressions after she accepts that it really was Naruto, given SS's ability to read love into a blank, "just came out of a coma" Sasuke's face I think I'm entitled to do my own interpretation of expressions). 

I do find it highly amusing that someone who ships the morally reprehensible SS is trying to put my morals into question though.



> When he actually got his biggest incentive to save Sakura when Sasuke did his speech to help her, and that speech wasn't romantic in nature.


Sasuke's speech helped fuel his resolve in the face of Gaara's overwhelming power. It didn't give him his biggest incentive, as that would mean that saving Sakura for Sasuke's sake means more to him than saving Sakura for his own sake/her sake(I'll just assume you didn't fully understand what the word incentive means here). Sasuke's speech isn't romantic in nature because it isn't given romantic context and we have no pre-established romantic feelings from him towards Sakura. 

The thing I find really amusing lately is this thought process of NH and SS. While I'm not specifically claiming you ch1p held to this belief, many in the SS fandom would have argued prior to 675 that Sakura was always in love with Sasuke and only changed their tune when it benefited their argument. The thing that interests me here is that with that comes the belief that her feelings strengthened to love through her interaction with Sasuke in part 1, which okay thats how these things normally go. She herself in her confession said that he never really talked to her and we see ourselves see him ignore, push away or downright be nasty towards her throughout the course of part 1. Not that that stopped her from growing to be in "love" with him, maybe those small compliments he paid her here and there were enough for her tween heart to be satisfied enough into latching onto him even more.

Onto the actual point, what amuses me to no end is that you can take that and accept Sakura's love as being genuine, not extremely shallow love and yet when I and others argue that Naruto's feelings grew over part 1 from crush to love its always met with opposition from the other side. Both Sakura and Naruto started the series having crushes and yet supposedly only Sakura, whose interactions with Sasuke were considerably more negative with him being a very closed person who doesn't give much of himself away, grew into love while Naruto's considerably more positive interactions didn't cause his feelings to grow deeper. Even with him getting even closer and more knowledgeable of her in part 2 where Sakura has barely interacted with Sasuke supposedly hasn't had his feelings grow stronger than Sakura's part 1 interactions with Sasuke. NH and SS read romance into everything Sakura and Hinata do because of their feelings yet are hypocrites when it comes to reading romance into Naruto's even when the author gives it direct romantic context. Naruto's pre-established romantic feelings are seemingly handwaved in such cases as "mere friendship" for supposedly the reason that he can actually have real conversations with Sakura, for we know that real love comes from being spurned or just having some really dramatic talk once every hundred or several hundred chapters or so.


*Naruto:* Established crush+lots of positive interaction=stays as crush
*Sakura:* Established crush+lots of negative interaction=everlasting love
*Hinata:* Established crush+watching from after with a few interactions=everlasting love


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## Eternity (Jun 3, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> *Naruto:* Established crush+lots of positive interaction=stays as crush
> *Sakura:* Established crush+lots of negative interaction=everlasting love
> *Hinata:* Established crush+watching from after with a few interactions=everlasting love


*
Naruto:* Established crush + positive interaction + negative interactions + girl never giving up on other guy = giving up on crush.
*Sakura:* Established crush + negative interactions = she is still in love and lots of drama
*Hinata: *Established crush + positive interaction (oh my, see what I did there? See how I am not wrong when I say positive interactions, yet it changes the sentence completely. Isn't that wierd?) = relationship foriming and developing.

You see, it's very easy to use words to convey a certain belief. You don't really need a lot of actual proof or understanding at all. 

I fear for this thread. It's not a debate thread at all. Not anymore.


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 3, 2014)

Naruto wouldn't really stay as a crush though. He has many signs of infatuation. Someone who is infatuated with someone else usually starts off as a crush, but one that is short sighted and very shallow at best.
Infatuation needs to be fed with positive affection, else it is short lived. I doubt Naruto really has strong feelings for Sakura anymore. Whether it be a crush or not, it's hopeful at best.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 3, 2014)

Eternity said:


> *
> Naruto:* Established crush + positive interaction + negative interactions + girl never giving up on other guy = giving up on crush.
> *Sakura:* Established crush + negative interactions = she is still in love and lots of drama
> *Hinata: *Established crush + positive interaction (oh my, see what I did there? See how I am not wrong when I say positive interactions, yet it changes the sentence completely. Isn't that wierd?) = relationship foriming and developing.
> ...


It's one thing to say that Naruto's feelings aren't love, but its' another to say that he's given up on Sakura?

What?



There is ZERO evidence of that. Naruto is an extremely blunt and direct person. If he didn't have any feelings for Sakura that would be made ABUNDANTLY clear. Like Kishimoto would've literally outright told the audience.


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 3, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> It's one thing to say that Naruto's feelings aren't love, but its' another to say that he's given up on Sakura?
> 
> What?
> 
> ...


LOL Bankaii, here you are with your cocky attitude, but there is no current evidence that he's still got any feelings for her that are that of much but a crush. The girlfriend comment was shutdown quickly, so don't bother with that.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 3, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL Bankaii, here you are with your cocky attitude, but there is no current evidence that he's still got any feelings for her that are that of much but a crush. The girlfriend comment was shutdown quickly, so don't bother with that.



He only doesn't have feelings to only those invested in NH/SS. Your section of the fandom is literally the ONLY people who subscribe to the deluded notion that Naruto doesn't still have romantic feelings for Sakura. To everyone else saying "Naruto likes Sakura" is the same as saying "Water is wet"

Gee, I wonder why that is?


----------



## Eternity (Jun 3, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> It's one thing to say that Naruto's feelings aren't love, but its' another to say that he's given up on Sakura?
> 
> What?
> 
> ...



Hey, I won't judge the guy if he keeps wanting to crush on Sakura. That's his perogative. But as far as Naruto is concerned, Sakura is still on the Sauce. If he isn't giving up, good for him, but that's what it looks like to me. You have your observations, I have mine. Let's agree to dissagree on this.

And let me ask, is there any spesific reason you didn't respond to the other things I wrote? Or was is just selective picking?


----------



## Chabal (Jun 3, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> LOL Bankaii, here you are with your cocky attitude, but there is no current evidence that he's still got any feelings for her that are that of much but a crush. The girlfriend comment was shutdown quickly, so don't bother with that.



I think you have it backwards. It's your job to provide evidence Naruto's feelings for Sakura have changed. The burden of proof is on you. There's nothing even implying such a thing in the narrative (except of course if you take his line in the Kage summit arc literally, but then I'll let you attempt to convince people Naruto now hates Sakura). More importantly, Kishimoto made it very clear that romantic feelings don't change easily in this manga, as demonstrated by Lee still dreaming of Sakura being romantically interested in him, or an even more egregious example, Karin still pining after Sasuke, despite the fact she had the perfect opportunity to drop her pursuit after he stabbed her (Kishimoto even had her say she was done with him... yet he went back on it later).

Again, if you wish to argue everyone and their mother kept their romantic interest from part 1 but Naruto, the protagonist and most important character in the narrative, well known for cherishing his bonds and never giving up, was somehow the only one who switched feelings off screen without any sort of focus being given to it... Suit yourself.


----------



## Eternity (Jun 3, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> He only doesn't have feelings to only those invested in NH/SS. Your section of the fandom is literally the ONLY people who subscribe to the deluded notion that Naruto doesn't still have romantic feelings for Sakura. To everyone else saying "Naruto likes Sakura" is the same as saying "Water is wet"
> 
> Gee, I wonder why that is?



Really? Can you provide me with any statistics on that? A survey that shows that only those who are invested in NH/SS believes Naruto doesn't have romantic  feelings for Sakura? Cause that sounds like your subjective opinion, based on your own limited experiences with the fandom and understanding of people.

Cause if you ask me, I think that's brushing everyone over with he same brush. We are individual people. Remember that.

So no, "everyone else" doesnt see "Naruto likes Sakura" as "water is wet". Cause everyone hasn't had a say in the matter.


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## Hitt (Jun 3, 2014)

To deny Naruto has romantic feelings for Sakura even now is the ultimate in delusion and craziness.  He's stated this repeatedly and confirmed it repeatedly.  Yet somehow people still want to push the narrative that he's either still just crushing (while the girls have true love and only true love) or is COMPLETELY OVER HER 

Gimme a fucking break.  No NS is not canon, not until Sakura shows unambiguous romantic affection for Naruto, and yet there seems to be this overwhelming need to absolutely crush this pairing with "facts" that are simply not true whatsoever.  

Of course I know exactly why that is, but I'm not at liberty to discuss the reasons due to the rules of this thread.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 3, 2014)

I ship SS, I do not care for NH. I do believe Naruto loves Sakura. I just don't see him as _"the nice guy who is madly in love with Sakura"_ or _"the guy that'd do anything for Sakura."_

i dont see naruto as the ~nice guy~ who truly loves sakura. To me, his feelings for her ain't all that. Just my humble opinion.


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## baasama (Jun 3, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Edit: Wait so... that caption was just a fake? Hilarious.





「友を捨てた。愛を捨てた。里を捨てた。残るのはその名と、この思いだけ。」
"He threw away friendship (literally ?friend?). He threw away love. He threw away the village. What remains are only that name, and this thought."

Carry on.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 3, 2014)

Using covers is a very desperate game seeing as there are things that would work against your favor. Furthermore, of course you guys seeing that in rose-tinted glasses you overlook that fact that he literally turned his back on these things as they were offered to him..._by other people_...Also the fact that kinda you know, *rejected* them.



CPRSex said:


> Naruto wouldn't really stay as a crush though. He has many signs of infatuation. Someone who is infatuated with someone else usually starts off as a crush, but one that is short sighted and very shallow at best.
> Infatuation needs to be fed with positive affection, else it is short lived. I doubt Naruto really has strong feelings for Sakura anymore. Whether it be a crush or not, it's hopeful at best.



Seeing as you have argued in SasuSaku's favor, I am astounded that you can't take notice of the inconsistency in this statement to your prior standpoints.



> LOL Bankaii, here you are with your cocky attitude, but there is no current evidence that he's still got any feelings for her that are that of much but a crush. The girlfriend comment was shutdown quickly, so don't bother with that.



That is an extreme argument from ignorance. Whatever Naruto feels, and whomever he feels for, regardless of the nature we know it runs deep. So I'm pretty amazed people like you whom are supposed to like this guy and want him to be with Hinata can actually sit and argue that he's essentially Part I Sakura.


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## Chabal (Jun 3, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is an extreme argument from ignorance. Whatever Naruto feels, and whomever he feels for, regardless of the nature we know it runs deep. So I'm pretty amazed people like you whom are supposed to like this guy and want him to be with Hinata can actually sit and argue that he's essentially Part I Sakura.



This is particularly ironic because, if I remember correctly, isn't the pro NS argument about Sakura realizing she truly loves Naruto and will drop her shallow feelings for Sasuke for a more positive and genuine love constantly derided as delusional and only having a place in fanfiction? Yet we're allowed to turn around and argue Naruto has only ever had a crush on Sakura and Hinata is the one who'll make him discover what true love really is with the magical handholding of rainbows and unicorns (although even that apparently doesn't stop him from being an asshole since he jokes about another girl being his girlfriend to his dead father)?

Again I feel like the internet echo chamber has made quite a few people lose track of the kind of fiction they were reading. It makes absolutely zero sense for the feelings of the hero of a manga for young boys (who have to identify with him to some degree) to be portrayed as less relevant than those of female side characters. It's just nonsense. Kishimoto isn't writing this manga for shoujou readers or people who really like Hinata. Get some perspective please.


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## ch1p (Jun 3, 2014)

Ahhh, see... you're wrong.



「友を捨てた。愛を捨てた。里を捨てた。残るのはその名と、この思いだけ。」
He threw away frienship (literally ‘friend’). He threw away love. He threw away the village. What remains are only that name, and this thought.

Not that I think it matters. It's a chapter cover. Who the fuck cares. You take these too seriously. I love how your first instinct is to deny though.



Elicit94 said:


> It's not in the way of "because her feelings for Sasuke are way stronger than my feelings for her".



That's how the manga treats his feelings. As minor compared to Sakura and Hinata. 



> It was always said that he appreciated Sakura's love, but since he didn't feel the same way (at all) he couldn't reciprocate.



So? I'm just saying that chapter covers can bite you in the ass.



> The manga already shows how he "wanted to protect that smiling face" from the Kage Summit arc, but you refuse to acknowledge it.



How. 



> "People don't protect others out of romantic affection"
> 
> Seriously? Rock Lee wasn't protecting Sakura out of romantic affection? That was the first thing he wanted to do upon first meeting Sakura. This is a pretty absurd claim,  but all you really need is the manga to disprove it.



Sasuke wasn't protecting Sakura out of romantic affection, for example.



> That means not ending up with Naruto right?



Considering Naruto is what 99% of her character is about, then yeah. Hinata's character role will be shat upon if she doesn't get with Naruto.



> It happened in 631, but people continue to deny it as a joke.



That's because it's a joke.



> NaruSaku wasn't the one reduced to a mere dream



That's because NaruSaku has always been a joke. There's nothing less for it to be reduced to.



> Edit: Wait so... that caption was just a fake? Hilarious.



It really amuses me and proves me oh so very right! If a translator says something bad about NaruSaku it's just his opinion and he's biased and blah blah blah, dragging that person to the mud. If it's a fan pointing out something bad about NaruSaku, it was made up. It happened with this cover ATM but it happened with 675 as well. How many accusations did I saw from NS fans that the translators were biased and how we were making scripts and raws up. You're all the same too. Three people already. Best fandom _ever_. 



Chabal said:


> Even if that cover genuinely said Sasuke "threw away love" it's quite a desperate stretch to conclude it meant he was fine with a romantic relationship with Sakura. There's different types of love and love in general is a concept that's been mentioned in Naruto multiple times without having anything to do with romance. Examples include Gaara's uncle telling him love heals wounds (he wasn't talking about any girl here, and indeed Gaara was saved by Naruto and later by knowing his parents loved him all along) or how Jinchuurikis like Kushina or Naruto had to be filled with love by other people (Mito for Kushina and Kushina herself for Naruto) to accept their fate. And EVEN if it meant Sasuke threw away romantic love, it says nothing about him reciprocating and just serves as a confirmation Sakura had romantic feelings for him and he threw them in the trash can. So really what a terrible argument.



He threw away romantic love. What do you think that is?

Didn't you put me on ignore? Then why are you answering to my arguments? Because some guy quoted me? Do you understand the concept of ignoring someone, or you did it just to be petty?



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Are you confusing the two discussions? The quote you were responding to had me asked about whether or not Sasuke was serious when he said he wanted to be Hokage in 631, this doesn't work as a reply to that. Not that you could have an actual rebuttal since while the reaction of a good deal of others was comedic, he was totally serious(as he always is).



I didn't take his claim seriously. He may have bee serious but the narrative put it as a joke, such I didn't really care. It was only when he died that it took a level in depth.



> No thats what you are trying to twist my words into being what I am insisting to try and make me out as a bad person who would think Naruto would only protect someone if he wants to bang them. Such is not the case and would be clear to anyone without an agenda who actually took the time to read my arguments, especially if they also read my debate with sapikcan earlier in the thread or just in general have seen my stances and views.



If it doesn't matter, _*then don't bring it up*_.



> I wouldn't apply it to the Gaara fight if it wasn't for Kishi giving it romantic context twice in the actual fight(Gamakichi's main squeeze comment, ) then also giving it some romantic context when Sakura tries to thank Sasuke for saving her from Gaara and he corrects her that it was Naruto(this is based off her somewhat blush when thanking Sasuke then her expressions after she accepts that it really was Naruto, given SS's ability to read love into a blank, "just came out of a coma" Sasuke's face I think I'm entitled to do my own interpretation of expressions).



Gamakichi's comment was a joke.

Sakura thanked Sasuke romantically and that means, then by that lolgic that would mean Naruto saved her romantically?  No. Sakura thanked Sasuke romantically because she likes him. Sakura's actions have nothing to do with Naruto's actions. If that was the case, by that lolgic, it would put Sasuke's jealousy as romantic as well.



> I do find it highly amusing that someone who ships the morally reprehensible SS is trying to put my morals into question though.



Oh yes, the 'SS is the worse' hour. When NaruSaku is looking like shit, attack the opposition. Quick! As nobody sees.



> Sasuke's speech helped fuel his resolve in the face of Gaara's overwhelming power. It didn't give him his biggest incentive, as that would mean that saving Sakura for Sasuke's sake means more to him than saving Sakura for his own sake/her sake(I'll just assume you didn't fully understand what the word incentive means here). Sasuke's speech isn't romantic in nature because it isn't given romantic context and we have no pre-established romantic feelings from him towards Sakura.



It was the big incentive. He was fighting with explosive tags just before and saying to himself that he didn't know what to do. He massive kage bunshin and summoned gamabunta after Sasuke said what he said.

The fact is, Naruto flashbacked to all sorts of bonds. Interestingly, he flashbacked to romantic love Sakura -> Sasuke (as usual, acknowledging it). He's not doing it for romantic love just because Gamakichi made a joke.



> The thing I find really amusing lately is this thought process of NH and SS. While I'm not specifically claiming you ch1p held to this belief, many in the SS fandom would have argued prior to 675 that Sakura was always in love with Sasuke and only changed their tune when it benefited their argument.



Look, Kiba. I'm not some of the NH / SS fandom. I'm not required to defend them or their arguments. I'm not required to sign under everything any NH / SS fan has ever said. The only thing I need to defend is my feelings and my thoughts.

The fact is, I've never signed down that Sakura was seriously in love with Sasuke in chapter 3. In fact, I wrote a huge wall of text months ago, saying _exactly_ this.



> Onto the actual point, what amuses me to no end is that you can take that and accept Sakura's love as being genuine, not extremely shallow love and yet when I and others argue that Naruto's feelings grew over part 1 from crush to love its always met with opposition from the other side.



Listen, Kiba, again. You might not know this, but I used to take Naruto's feelings WAY more seriously than Hinata's. In fact, I mocked the NH fandom for thinking NH would ever become canon when she and I'll paraphrase it 'all Hinata does is faint around Naruto, per Kiba's comment, she doesn't have a spine deal with it'. I didn't have any friends amongst the NH fandom, they all disliked me (at least, those that had crossed paths with me, I admit I wasn't very loud back in the day).

However, things changed. Naruto continues not giving any thought about his feelings for Sakura outside of jokes. Hinata on the other hand, hit the serious business hard. Considering my way of seeing the situation, I had no option but to admit defeat, and even though I didn't do it right away I eventually did. I understand you're not so ready because the conflict is bigger, but that's not my problem.

I have never been an hypocrite about this. And I don't have to defend people who have been hypocrites over it. I only have to defend my argument.



> Naruto: Established crush+lots of positive interaction=stays as crush
> Sakura: Established crush+lots of negative interaction=everlasting love
> Hinata: Established crush+watching from after with a few interactions=everlasting love



Naruto: It stays as a crush because that's all Kishi has shown.
Sakura: It's everlasting love because that's what Kishi has shown (and made other characters say, like Naruto or Kakashi).
Hinata: It evolved to love beecause that's what Kishi has shown. I guarantee you I wasn't part of the fandom who said Hinata loved Naruto in part 1. In fact, I was probably on the other side, mocking it as admiration / crush. However, it's love now, because Kishi made sure it's undeniable. Her dream is to be cuddling with him on a bench for crying out loud.



CPRSex said:


> Naruto wouldn't really stay as a crush though. He has many signs of infatuation. Someone who is infatuated with someone else usually starts off as a crush, but one that is short sighted and very shallow at best.
> Infatuation needs to be fed with positive affection, else it is short lived. I doubt Naruto really has strong feelings for Sakura anymore. Whether it be a crush or not, it's hopeful at best.



His (romantic) feelings are most similar to chapter. She's a cute girl he kind of likes. He wouldn't mind having her as a girlfriend, but that's all there is to it.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Using covers is a very desperate game seeing as there are things that would work against your favor.



That's what the NaruSaku side was doing it. Get on with the times, Kaiba. You don't have to defend everything that comes from your side.


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 3, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's how the manga treats his feelings. As minor compared to Sakura and Hinata.


His feelings for Sakura were always treated in the same level as whatever Sakura felt for Sasuke. You can say that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke (if she even feels the same way) are minor compared to Hinata's.  



> So? I'm just saying that chapter covers can bite you in the ass.


Nah.



> Sasuke wasn't protecting Sakura out of romantic affection, for example.


Naruto and Rock Lee like Sakura, and they've showed that they were protecting her out of romantic affection. 

Sasuke protected Sakura just cuz she's a helpful teammate.  



> Considering Naruto is what 99% of her character is about, then yeah. Hinata's character role will be shat upon if she doesn't get with Naruto.



She's not entitled to him so fuck trying to tell me that shit. It's not like Karin is entitled to Sasuke. 




> That's because it's a joke.



It's funny how you people think that he would suddenly be in the mood to joke to someone who wouldn't even understand the joke. It can't be that he was just trying to answer a legit question as best as he can?



> That's because NaruSaku has always been a joke. There's nothing less for it to be reduced to.



If NaruSaku is a joke I wonder what that makes SasuSaku


----------



## C-Moon (Jun 3, 2014)

Okay I'll take the L



> *Considering Naruto is what 99% of her character is about, then yeah.* Hinata's character role will be shat upon if she doesn't get with Naruto.



Such depth very interesting


----------



## Corvida (Jun 3, 2014)

> QUOTE=Elicit94;50842570].
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh dodnt worry, Sakura got it right straight . SMASH!!!!!

Naruto next chapter-"never, but never  pester Sakura-chan again".



> t can't be that he was just trying to answer a legit question as best as he can?



He wasnt even the one being asked the question..
That should give you a little clue about the charming scene.
Remember he tells Sakura he had felt zombie dad was coming, along with the rest.

Next scene he?s bragging  "Isnt my pap? cool "with Kyuubi

That would give you another



> [f NaruSaku is a joke I wonder what that makes SasuSaku



The drama that makes the joke fall flat.

aUTMN SKIEZ included


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 3, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Oh dodnt worry, Sakura got it right straight . SMASH!!!!!
> 
> Naruto next chapter-"never, but never  pester Sakura-chan again".


So he suddenly decided to want to mess with her even though what Minato asked was thought provoking? He was thinking of a way to mess with her before saying "*uhm? *Yeah! Well, something like that"? What's with the need for thought just to mess with her? He wanted to get hit instead of trying to answer to the question as best as he can or letting Sakura answer the question meant for her?


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## ch1p (Jun 3, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> His feelings for Sakura were always treated in the same level as whatever Sakura felt for Sasuke. You can say that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke (if she even feels the same way) are minor compared to Hinata's.



No, they haven't been treated the same at all. Even Sai, who was the only one to evaluate Naruto's feelings in part 2, used a different word to refer to NAruto's feelings and Sakura's feelings, with the former being lesser deep than the latter.



> Nah.



But it can. Like this one.



> Naruto and Rock Lee like Sakura, and they've showed that they were protecting her out of romantic affection.



That's not true. Naruto has tried to look cool for Sakura in the past out of romantic affection (for example, FoD), but not in this occasion.



> Sasuke protected Sakura just cuz she's a helpful teammate.



I don't care. I'm not the one making sweeping remarks about people loving each other because they want to save them.



> She's not entitled to him so fuck trying to tell me that shit. It's not like Karin is entitled to Sasuke.



Karin's feelings are a joke too. She can join Naruto in the irrelevant love interest space. Even LeeSaku has been treated with more respect than NaruSaku.



> It's funny how you people think that he would suddenly be in the mood to joke to someone who wouldn't even understand the joke. It can't be that he was just trying to answer a legit question as best as he can?





Elicit94 said:


> So he suddenly decided to want to mess with her even though what Minato asked was thought provoking? He was thinking of a way to mess with her before saying "*uhm? *Yeah! Well, something like that"? What's with the need for thought just to mess with her? He wanted to get hit instead of trying to answer to the question as best as he can or letting Sakura answer the question meant for her?



Naruto painted the Hokage monument with poop symbols. All over papa too. Much respect. Naruto likes to fuck around. He even said this right the next chapter.



> If NaruSaku is a joke I wonder what that makes SasuSaku



Naruto's feelings only exist of SAkura -> SAsuke. So, SS is the reason for this pairing's existance even if it's a joke.


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## Corvida (Jun 3, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 3, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Oh dont  worry about Nardo?s skull-it?s thick, and  tough and used to it.. so I dont see him suffering  a reenacting of a certain game of thrones scene.And no, he wasnt specifically thinking about a way to mess, pest or play around wiht with her-he doesnt even really need to think very much, and usually doesnt need to specifically plan it, only has to be himself  It?s an Uzumaki motor mouth trait.. Ah, and that?s another endearing Nardo trait-he-doesnt mind or doesnt learn from Sakura hittings, no matter how brutal,, even with her "comical" corrections of doom-no matter how "cutesy-comically" scared  or penitent Kishi  likes to picture him after our hero has done it again.
> .The very fact he answered for Sakura was putting his head in smashing danger, anyway..
> 
> There goes another Little secret-Nardo is chatty, and Nardo likes to boast and brag-seee him with Kyubi when zombie dad leaves.
> ...



So he's bragging about Sakura being sort of his girlfriend. He couldn't just flat out say that she is his girlfriend. Interesting. That totally sounds like a joke. 

It's also not that he was answering according to how he himself views their relationship, Sakura didn't like that so it wasn't a serious portrayal of his feelings and he deliberately got her angry for the amusement.

Basically, you can try and shoot down the idea that she is his girlfriend, but that won't really change anything.


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## Revolution (Jun 3, 2014)

Hitt said:


> Oh, and I'm also willing to bet Yurika and Junichi didn't try to kill each other.  With Junichi trying multiple times



Neither did Sasuke try to kill Sakura at that point in his life.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 4, 2014)

ch1p said:


> No, they haven't been treated the same at all. Even Sai, who was the only one to evaluate Naruto's feelings in part 2, used a different word to refer to NAruto's feelings and Sakura's feelings, with the former being lesser deep than the latter.


Didn't I already tell you that was Naruto's gauging of her feelings?



> But it can. Like this one.


How? I've already said how it doesn't. Also, the main reason why I use that volume cover as an example is because in the very same chapter it's pretty obvious that Naruto was trying to "protect that smiling face" by desperately reiterating his desire to save Sasuke for her. Sakura even had flashbacks of that moment that happened in that same chapter when she realized that Naruto is deeply in love with her. 




> That's not true. Naruto has tried to look cool for Sakura in the past out of romantic affection (for example, FoD), but not in this occasion.


That whole Gaara fight was portrayed as Naruto trying to save his romantic interest no matter what. The implications were stated by WolfPrinceKiba, but you refuse to acknowledge them. 



> Karin's feelings are a joke too. She can join Naruto in the irrelevant love interest space. Even LeeSaku has been treated with more respect than NaruSaku.


Karin's feelings were already shown to be treated in the same level as Sakura's feelings when she was in love Sasuke. 

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Naruto's feelings only exist of SAkura -> SAsuke. So, SS is the reason for this pairing's existance even if it's a joke.


'the fuck?


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## Corvida (Jun 4, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ch1p (Jun 4, 2014)

> If I was going to defend it, I'd cite something favorable to it.



I'm not defending it. There's nothing to defend at the moment. Sasuke is being a dick to people? Welcome, this manga is called NAruto. 



Elicit94 said:


> Didn't I already tell you that was Naruto's gauging of her feelings?



And didn't I already tell you that I don't accept 'everyone, naruto, sai, sakura, kakashi, hinata is fucking stupid' as a pairing argument?



> How? I've already said how it doesn't. Also, the main reason why I use that volume cover as an example is because in the very same chapter it's pretty obvious that Naruto was trying to "protect that smiling face" by desperately reiterating his desire to save Sasuke for her.



My point is that there is no indication he's doing this out of romantic feelings. My point is also that, and it's very "obvious" Sasuke threw away love as well. You know, under the interpreation of wishful thinking. You're trying to pass of speculation as fact.



> Sakura even had flashbacks of that moment that happened in that same chapter when she realized that Naruto is deeply in love with her.



Sakura's flashbacks are irrelevant to gauge anything with accuracy because she was wrong to think that the PoaLT had that significance.



> That whole Gaara fight was portrayed as Naruto trying to save his romantic interest no matter what. The implications were stated by WolfPrinceKiba, but you refuse to acknowledge them.



A joke isn't an implication. The fact that he got inspiration from Sasuke and then flashbacked about 'important people' should tell you this is about 'important people', not 'love interest'.



> Karin's feelings were already shown to be treated in the same level as Sakura's feelings when she was in love Sasuke.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Karin wants to lick Sasuke all over and planned to take advantage of him while he's asleep. That's comparable to Sakura's feelings? Get out.



> 'the fuck?



 The reason Naruto gives why he likes Sakura is because of her feelings for Sasuke.

I promised a week ban for the whole Kaguya thing, so I won't show up so soon. This conversation is going in circles anyway.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 4, 2014)

Corvida said:


> MMMMMM--EEEERRRR.. Sort of.If you?re splitting hairs....he might even be proposing!I in front of zombie dad
> Come on, didnt you feel the teasing?


How could he be teasing if he looks dead serious about his answer?



> No, Sakura defiinitely, didnt like that-the vader face of death was authomatic even before heabutting him.
> definitely, that didtn sound as a serious portrayal, that?s sure.


Naruto was serious, Sakura's reaction and Minato's reaction was treated as comedic relief. 



> Cari, I didnt shoot down the idea that she is his girlfriend-Sakura did!-The statement was premature, even after Hero was praised as universal Messiah by the whole aliance.and beter still, after Sakura herself confessed romantic love like what, 3 weeks before?



Doesn't change the fact that Naruto views her like a girlfriend. Also, I think if she truly wanted to shoot down the idea she would feel the need to say something to deny that statement rather than just telling him to shut up, but that's just me.


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## AlphaTM (Jun 4, 2014)

Okay, hold up, hold up. I have a question.

One of the general ideas I've seen as of late, in the wake of last week's chapter, is that NH's chances of becoming canon are jeopardized by Hinata's Tsukuyomi dream, right?

Could someone explain the reasoning of why they believe that for me? Does anyone here _really_ believe that?


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

Personally I don't think it's makes NH's chances better or worse. I think the general idea is that her dream is just as likely to happen as having Sai and Sasuke fight over Ino. In other words, it was put in the realm of near impossible dreams.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 4, 2014)

That and Hinata is a side character, which is putting her importance to the story as nicely as possible. 

Hinata never stood a chance of being with Naruto, by proxy of Sakura existing. Its on the same level of absurdity as Shino getting the ultimate bug or Kiba being Hokage. Except you have people trying to rationalize it saying that she'll be an exception BECAUSE REASONS! 

She's not some special snowflake, never has, never will be. If she was, she wouldn't have been caught by IT. When a character's *only* trait is how much she wants to screw the main character's brains out you know you done fucked up somewhere.


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## LesExit (Jun 4, 2014)

AlphaTM said:


> Okay, hold up, hold up. I have a question.
> 
> One of the general ideas I've seen as of late, in the wake of last week's chapter, is that NH's chances of becoming canon are jeopardized by Hinata's Tsukuyomi dream, right?
> 
> Could someone explain the reasoning of why they believe that for me? Does anyone here _really_ believe that?


Yes some people think that. Probably to try to find any way possible to limit NH chances of happening when it's in such a threatening position pairing wise. Just because theres something in the dreams that would make the character happy in real life, doesn't mean it won't happen. Theres no reason as to why Mei can't get married, or Chouji can't find a girl who likes him for who he is, just like theres no reason as to why Naruto and Hinata can't be sitting like a happy couple on a bench XD Nothing about that is in the realms of impossible, or ridiculousness like Kiba being Hokage and having a dog day (lol Kiba wtf?), or with Neji being there (cause he's dead )


Though ya It's an awful argument, that people are using to try to attack NH, and push it into some no danger zone  Try to ignore it if you can, cause it's not worth acknowledging.


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## AlphaTM (Jun 4, 2014)

Kage said:


> Personally I don't think it's makes NH's chances better or worse. I think the general idea is that her dream is just as likely to happen as having Sai and Sasuke fight over Ino. In other words, it was put in the realm of near impossible dreams.



And as likely as Kiba becoming Hokage, or somesuch, right?

No but see, that kind of reasoning is flawed. All of the dreams are different and unique, and all of them have varying possibility and how reasonable they are. The dreams are directly a reflection of the character who has it. Assuming all of the dreams fall under the same "totally impossible" umbrella is disingenuous. All of the dreams _are_ impossible, but not all of them are impossible in the way Ino's is (well, hers is impossible both because of the romantic aspect and the fact that her dad is dead. Most of the dreams are impossible in that second aspect (like Hinata's) but not all of them are impossible in the first aspect. Acting as though they are is, again, disingenuous.)


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

AlphaTM said:


> And as likely as Kiba becoming Hokage, or somesuch, right?
> 
> No but see, that kind of reasoning is flawed. All of the dreams are different and unique, and all of them have varying possibility and how reasonable they are. The dreams are directly a reflection of the character who has it. Assuming all of the dreams fall under the same "totally impossible" umbrella is disingenuous. All of the dreams _are_ impossible, but not all of them are impossible in the way Ino's is (well, hers is impossible both because of the romantic aspect and the fact that her dad is dead. Most of the dreams are impossible in that second aspect (like Hinata's) but not all of them are impossible in the first aspect. Acting as though they are is, again, disingenuous.)



That's the idea.

I understand. I might even agree if I didn't believe one could make a case and say Hinata's dream borders more on the impossible in the same way Ino's does (dead relatives aside, it's the idea of romantic prospects who are not interested in reality) While it isn't fair or true to say this wipes out any and all chances for NH it shouldn't be treated like some kind of foreshadowing either or else try to be rationalized as probable because the dreams are simply dreams and as Naruto said 

Looks more like a bit of fun than anything else on Kishi's part to me.


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## AlphaTM (Jun 4, 2014)

It's obviously not foreshadowing, it's just a reaffirmation that Hinata's dream is to be with Naruto (something that's been established and reestablished time and time again), and I don't know how people manage to be surprised.

Again the actual topic of discussion falls onto Naruto and how he feels, and again any number of cases could be made in that regard (the majority of which will eventually be proven false (maybe)), but I just find it absurd that people try to make a case against NH based on _established information_ that is the _entire reason the pairing is at all possible_. That being, Hinata's side of the relationship.


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## Ao Thurston (Jun 4, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> That and Hinata is a side character, which is putting her importance to the story as nicely as possible.
> 
> Hinata never stood a chance of being with Naruto, by proxy of Sakura existing. Its on the same level of absurdity as Shino getting the ultimate bug or Kiba being Hokage. Except you have people trying to rationalize it saying that she'll be an exception BECAUSE REASONS!
> 
> She's not some special snowflake, never has, never will be. If she was, she wouldn't have been caught by IT. When a character's *only* trait is how much she wants to screw the main character's brains out you know you done fucked up somewhere.



Problem is, Kishimoto does all the writing, not only Naruto. It's not like some fangirl is writing Hinata.

And Kishimoto likes to state how much Hinata wants to be with Naruto. He does it a lot, sometimes giving her a lot more spotlight than other characters. If he is screwing with her, he must be a huge asshole - but he stated he likes her. No way Hinata's feels are going to be broken.

(also, Shino discovering another bug species isn't that impossibile or anything or Mei getting married is something isn't going to happen)


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

Yeah it is nothing new so it doesn't make it very compelling evidence either way. Then there's the fact people have ruled out pairings for a lot less so that isn't new either. Check out the shitstorm involving Naruto's Girlfriend comment to his dad for proof. That to me is also a case of establishing something the reader has already been made aware of (Naruto's interest in Sakura) but isn't meant for much else.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 4, 2014)

Kage said:


> Yeah it is nothing new so it doesn't make it very compelling evidence either way. Then there's the fact people have ruled out pairings for a lot less so that isn't new either. Check out the shitstorm involving Naruto's Girlfriend comment to his dad for proof. That to me is also a case of establishing something the reader has already been made aware of (Naruto's interest in Sakura) but isn't meant for much else.


I still don't get how people can seriously believe that Hinata will *surely* get what she wants when it's obvious from that comment that he bares absolutely no romantic feelings for Hinata. Her being with Naruto once the war is over? Lolno. Try sometime after that.


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## Chabal (Jun 4, 2014)

AlphaTM said:


> It's obviously not foreshadowing, it's just a reaffirmation that Hinata's dream is to be with Naruto (something that's been established and reestablished time and time again), and I don't know how people manage to be surprised.
> 
> Again the actual topic of discussion falls onto Naruto and how he feels, and again any number of cases could be made in that regard (the majority of which will eventually be proven false (maybe)), but I just find it absurd that people try to make a case against NH based on _established information_ that is the _entire reason the pairing is at all possible_. That being, Hinata's side of the relationship.



That's not what people are doing at all. The general idea is that Hinata's dream is portrayed and treated the same way as the rest of the side cast. It quite clearly demonstrates what a lot of anti NH arguments have been saying: Hinata is a side character, and it's nice that she wants to be with Naruto, but her wanting it to happen doesn't guarantee it'll happen, just like Kiba wanting to be Hokage doesn't mean it'll happen. Keep in mind one of the main pro NH arguments is "Hinata wants to be with Naruto so much it'd be cruel/bad writing if Kishimoto didn't give her what she wants!". The point anti NH is making is what really matter in this story is what NARUTO wants. Which to this point has never been Hinata.

You can argue about the various degree of possibility of each dream but that's missing the point. The point is Hinata's dream was given as much focus as the dreams of the rest of the side cast and therefore Hinata's dream happening while others stay in the dust isn't backed up by the narrative, it's just a matter of personal preference: basically people believe Hinata's dream will be realized because they like her and because she has more fans than Lee or Kiba or Ino. That's not a convincing argument.


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I still don't get how people can seriously believe that Hinata will *surely* get what she wants when it's obvious from that comment that he bares absolutely no romantic feelings for Hinata. Her being with Naruto once the war is over? Lolno. Try sometime after that.



Well there's definitely not a lack of shitting all over Naruto's feelings when it's convenient here.  In fact the general reasoning around here is something like girls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boys.

I don't believe that comment makes NH impossible but it's just hilarious to me not even the almighty 615 changed the fact Naruto still has the hots for Sakura.


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## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

I'd like to ask you guys what Sakura sees in Sasuke, a guy who she hardly knows and has seen very little of in the last 3-4 years.

I get what Sasuke sees in Sakura - a good spy (liar) a sexy badass babe who no other kunoichi can compare to.

Sakura knows jack shit about Sasuke, so what's her deal.

The reason I am annoyed with SS is because of Sakura's side.  Sasuke has more reason to be with his Taka team then her, but she is sexy and a proper mother who could carry her clan.  But she is a medical healer, not a psychological one.  

Why on earth does Sakura give one shit about Sasuke after trying (and failing) to kill him before?  She couldn't kill him from previous feelings.  Okay, but why is she in love with someone she never thought she'd see again and reject a good looking man who even gave her a love letter?

I just don't get it.

Please explain it to me.

At that point, Sasuke was just a part of the Fourth Great Shinobi World War as far as everyone was aware.


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## Revolution (Jun 4, 2014)

AlphaTM said:


> Okay, hold up, hold up. I have a question.
> 
> One of the general ideas I've seen as of late, in the wake of last week's chapter, is that NH's chances of becoming canon are jeopardized by Hinata's Tsukuyomi dream, right?
> 
> Could someone explain the reasoning of why they believe that for me? Does anyone here _really_ believe that?



some people just get the feeling that because it's in a dream world of Tsukoyomi that it will never happen.


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## LesExit (Jun 4, 2014)

Kage said:


> Well there's definitely not a lack of shitting all over Naruto's feelings when it's convenient here.  In fact the general reasoning around here is something like girls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boys.
> 
> I don't believe that comment makes NH impossible but it's just hilarious to me not even the almighty 615 changed the fact Naruto still has the hots for Sakura.


Literally it depends on if you take that gf comment seriously. If NH happens, we'll all be forced to accept that when Naruto said he'd stop poking fun at Sakura, it really meant he was intentionally trying to rouse her. Not to seriously exclaim to his father that the girl whom he just prior to the war had an incredibly negative romantic interaction with, which also further confirmed he knows Sakura loves Sasuke, was like his girlfriend. 

Really the possibilities seem to be
1.It was a joke.
2.Naruto is genuinely stupid. LIke_ genuinely_ stupid :0


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Literally it depends on if you take that gf comment seriously. If NH happens, we'll all be forced to accept that when Naruto said he'd stop poking fun at Sakura, it really meant he was intentionally trying to rouse her. Not to seriously exclaim to his father that the girl whom he just prior to the war had an incredibly negative romantic interaction with, which also further confirmed he knows Sakura loves Sasuke, was like his girlfriend.
> 
> Really the possibilities seem to be
> 1.It was a joke.
> 2.Naruto is genuinely stupid. LIke_ genuinely_ stupid :0



"Incredibly negative romantic interaction" is a bit much. They weren't trying to kill each other after all. Was it negative? certainly. Did Naruto hold it against Sakura and has it ultimately changed their dynamic for the worst? Not really no.

So we're left with the possibility that _maybe_ Naruto really does still like Sakura, answered a question that wasn't directed at him to depict as much and got whacked upside the head for the implication. (and it was just an implication because the way he words it doesn't confirm she is but doesn't exactly deny it either)

But _nah_, he has to be joking or he's an idiot.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 4, 2014)

There was never any indication that he fell out of love with Sakura anyway. If you actually believe that he could end up with Hinata without any resolution towards his feelings for Sakura then you are probably stupid. Naruto is still very much in love with Sakura, and obviously still only wants her and bares no romantic feelings for Hinata as of now.


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## LesExit (Jun 4, 2014)

Kage said:


> "Incredibly negative romantic interaction" is a bit much. They weren't trying to kill each other after all. Was it negative? certainly. Did Naruto hold it against Sakura and has it ultimately changed their dynamic for the worst? Not really no.
> 
> So we're left with the possibility that _maybe_ Naruto really does still like Sakura, answered a question that wasn't directed at him to depict as much and got whacked upside the head for the implication. (and it was just an implication because the way he words it doesn't confirm she is but doesn't exactly deny it either)
> 
> But _nah_, he has to be joking or he's an idiot.


Romantically for NS yes, it was incredibly negative. 
They're still friends of course, I would expect nothing less. Naruto understands Sakura did all this out of love. 

Yes.


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## pizza_blade (Jun 4, 2014)

Ah well, since my last post got deleted due to the latter part of the post--which is fair enough, although I don't deny that I kind of need to get it out of my system due how frontal/aggressive that particular poster's actions towards others--I just repost the beginning part of my deleted post then:

I can understand NaruSaku and NaruHina, since at least these involve two characters who appreciate one another, characters that can work with one another in a good, healthy relationship. What I don't understand is SasuSaku; last week's chapter Sasuke went ahead to smackdown Sakura's confidence and self-worth without so much of a pause/hesitation, and there are people who support this kind of relationship? Not to mention the fact he HAS tried to kill her before, also without so much of a pause/hesitation.

Really? NaruSaku and NaruHina = I am fine with it, but SasuSaku, I just can't ever understand it.



LesExit said:


> Romantically for NS yes, it was incredibly negative.
> They're still friends of course, I would expect nothing less. Naruto understands Sakura did all this out of love.
> 
> Yes.



I love how you persist in using the word "incredibly", hahaha.


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## LesExit (Jun 4, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> I love how you persist in using the word "incredibly", hahaha.


Cause yes, romantically it was incredibly negative. No positives on either side. Though SS also went through some incredibly negative crap too O___O


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## Kage (Jun 4, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Romantically for NS yes, it was incredibly negative.
> They're still friends of course, I would expect nothing less. Naruto understands Sakura did all this out of love.
> 
> Yes.



It wasn't good and makes NaruSaku look like shit but hasn't changed much else. 

Talk to me about serious negative repercussions when Naruto develops trust issues regarding Sakura, when he constantly frowns at the thought of her, when other characters take note of how it appears his feelings for her are different from before and seem motivated primarily out of duty and kindness. When his interactions with her leave him sullen and demoralized.

About that


Kage said:


> Well there's definitely not a lack of shitting all over Naruto's feelings when it's convenient here.


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## LesExit (Jun 4, 2014)

Kage said:


> It wasn't good and makes NaruSaku look like shit but hasn't changed much else.
> 
> Talk to me about serious negative repercussions when Naruto develops trust issues regarding Sakura, when he constantly frowns at the thought of her, when other characters take note of how it appears his feelings for her are different from before and seem motivated primarily out of duty and kindness. When his interactions with her leave him sullen and demoralized.


Two me it simply made two things clear.
That there really was no romantic NS development prior to that, that either of them could think of. 
That Sakura solely loved Sasuke, and Naruto had already come to accept that.
-I think the positives were that it showed how much Sakura cared for Naruto, she truly thought her promise was hurting him. Then it also showed that Naruto understood Sakura and her feelings, which was good. They don't have a bad relationship at all. Sakura's good intentions just ending up backfiring...but I think she was smart enough to know they would anyway. Though stabbing Sasuke, I'll never get how she thought she could pull that off  (;? ロ?)

I know Sasuke and Sakura have issues. They're the only pairing that I'm honestly concerned about, because of all their issues. NS is trivial, NH is obvious. If you still think that Sakura no longer feels romantic affection towards Sasuke because of Kakashi's comment, theres nothing I can really say at this point, cause we're gonna run in circles.


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## Kage (Jun 5, 2014)

All it made clear to me is miscommunication problems and truly exposed Sakura for the emotional parasite that she is. They don't work because they aren't equals. Sakura will worry even to the point of underestimating Naruto's abilities and his feelings but still depend on his strength of character and Naruto will keep quiet to keep her safe.

This is debate thread precisely because it's not obvious. It's up for debate because even now there is still material to debate over, because Naruto hasn't confessed to Sakura _or_ Hinata no matter how supposedly unshakable and prophetic their own feelings might be. Because it's been over 600+ chapters and Sasuke still isn't giving a romantic shit but here we call that "drama" and "issues" instead of acknowledging it as truly damming for the pairing as it surely would have been for any other. 

Ultimately nothing is obvious because *no one* has had their feelings returned no matter whatever development or how strongly one might feel about the chances.


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## pizza_blade (Jun 5, 2014)

Yea I don't see any compelling argument that can push me towards favoring SasuSaku even just for a little bit. Also, I always laugh whenever I see SasuSaku supporter say something to the tune of "Sakura has never shown interest in Naruto and therefore it fails" or "Naruto has never shown interest in Hinata and therefore it fails."

It's like the ultimate irony.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 5, 2014)

How about we take a look at the NH moments during the course of this war arc?

559: Naruto encourages Hinata by being a decent human being and telling her that there is no reason to get herself down. The "It's all in your eyes" is exaggerated to mean something romantic when that's obviously not the case if he had not thought or shown any interest in her or her love confession prior to that. Not to mention that Naruto was obviously still in love with Sakura and had not a single thought of Hinata during the Kage Summit arc, after Hinata had confessed her love for him. Also, is this supposed to be a signal?

573: Hinata randomly decides to pursue Naruto in the middle of a war... or so we're supposed to believe... 

611: Naruto was "acting tough" in front of Hinata, because Kiba had sensed something during their previous interaction in 559, where there should have been no romantic implications. The comment then gets ignored by Naruto. Also, acting tough in front of your biggest admirer means romance?

615: Naruto gives up hope in himself before Hinata has to ensure him of his ideals and his way of the ninja. Kurama is given the credit as well. Naruto takes her hand in gratitude with the primary purpose of chakra transfer, saying "It's thanks to you that stayed at my side" (in this present battle). 

631: Naruto totally poked fun of Sakura there! 

633: Seems like there was a bit more to the hand hold after all.  Naruto looks at her and squeezes her hand in camaraderie. Hinata then says that she has to push forward like he has and that she always wants to be by his side.

649: Hinata states that she wants to be by his side *too*, and that she has to do her best to do that. What happened to this confidence in just simply being by his side by being in a romantic relationship with him? 

677: Hinata "calls" for Naruto, but it's confirmed next chapter that he was rushing forward to save everyone rather than a single life. Cool pairing tease wasn't it?


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## Chabal (Jun 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Two me it simply made two things clear.
> That there really was no romantic NS development prior to that, that either of them could think of.



What do you call "romantic development" then? It is development in a way because in early part 1 especially there was just no conceivable way Sakura would ever "confess" to Naruto or even accept being in a relationship with him. I know this was in great part spurned by her guilt and the situation (Sasuke seemingly being unredeemable and Sai's speech to her) but the fact remains she was willing to become his girlfriend, which is a change compared to early on.

I also have a tough time believing absolutely _everything _Sakura told Naruto was a lie because this would portray her in an even worse light than I think Kishimoto intends to. She also blushed when she hugged him and she didn't look like someone faking it or she's really talented. So it does hint at her changing feelings for him (she started as someone who hated him remember) even if she's obviously not in love with him yet.

On the other hand, what "romantic development" did NaruHina have? It's only on Hinata's side as always. She confessed and now she plainly states that she wants to be his girlfriend/wife. What about Naruto though? To me it's the same old stuff since the Chuunin exams: positive reaction from him but nothing implying romantic interest. And indeed NaruHina arguments have never changed since the famous "I like people like you" line: it's always supposed to be a proof Naruto has accepted Sakura will never love him and so is open to Hinata's affection... Until a scene shows he's still interested in Sakura (early part 2 date requests, Sai's observation, the girlfriend comment) and then NaruHina proceeds to argue it's either a "joke" or another proof he's "moved on" (?).

I won't even mention SasuSaku because not only didn't it have any "romantic development" but their relationship as comrades took an awful turn.


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## Corvida (Jun 5, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 5, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Becsue he himself recognizes as much the very next chapter, if the retardedness of the sacred scene wasnt enough.



If he's dead serious that means he did not expect Sakura to hit him.. He never once did something to mess with her intentionally and rile her up. That's completely OOC. HE WAS NOT TEASING. Stop trying to paint him as an inconsiderate moron just to appeal to NH. 



> Then he?s lying to himself,or delusional and  or the love martyr, forever tongue tied until he presents Sasuke to Sakura tied with his own sound bow belt to be able to confess himself doesnt exist



I don't think he would be lying about her being sorta his girlfriend, but of course you wouldn't want to see it that way.


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## Corvida (Jun 5, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> If he's dead serious that means he did not expect Sakura to hit him..



Think so? This time it wasnt even the habitual "Sakura-chaaaann", but an straigh"Ouch.you?re making it worse instead of healing me". He knows pretty well what riles Sakura up by this time.



> He never once did something to mess with her intentionally and rile her up. That's completely OOC. HE WAS NOT TEASING. Stop trying to paint him as an inconsiderate moron just to appeal to NH.


"Memo to me-never. but never never ever pester Sakura-chan again" He?s not an incosiderate moron nor lkes to rile her up in a bad way,  he?s simply.... spontaneous like that. And that pet phrase you find you reminiscent of early par 2 is comedically  repeated for a reason.


> I don't think he would be lying about her being sorta his girlfriend, but of course you wouldn't want to see it that way.



The only way he woudnt be lying , after the Iron Land confession  and his clear example of a Naruto that is not playing around, would be , if he simply cant let Sakura answer herself,  would have been with a mere  "no."


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

Kage said:


> All it made clear to me is miscommunication problems and truly exposed Sakura for the emotional parasite that she is. They don't work because they aren't equals. Sakura will worry even to the point of underestimating Naruto's abilities and his feelings but still depend on his strength of character and Naruto will keep quiet to keep her safe.
> 
> This is debate thread precisely because it's not obvious. It's up for debate because even now there is still material to debate over, because Naruto hasn't confessed to Sakura _or_ Hinata no matter how supposedly unshakable and prophetic their own feelings might be. Because it's been over 600+ chapters and Sasuke still isn't giving a romantic shit but here we call that "drama" and "issues" instead of acknowledging it as truly damming for the pairing as it surely would have been for any other.
> 
> Ultimately nothing is obvious because *no one* has had their feelings returned no matter whatever development or how strongly one might feel about the chances.


NH is blatantly obvious literary wise, it's been obvious for a while. Of course this debate thread will keep existing though, cause people are in denial, and I do enjoy doing it usually...but I'm feeling so out of steam lately... I don't have too much to say I guess. I'm mostly just waiting for how SS plays out. NH becoming canon is simply a matter of time.


Chabal said:


> What do you call "romantic development" then? It is development in a way because in early part 1 especially there was just no conceivable way Sakura would ever "confess" to Naruto or even accept being in a relationship with him. I know this was in great part spurned by her guilt and the situation (Sasuke seemingly being unredeemable and Sai's speech to her) but the fact remains she was willing to become his girlfriend, which is a change compared to early on.
> 
> I also have a tough time believing absolutely _everything _Sakura told Naruto was a lie because this would portray her in an even worse light than I think Kishimoto intends to. She also blushed when she hugged him and she didn't look like someone faking it or she's really talented. So it does hint at her changing feelings for him (she started as someone who hated him remember) even if she's obviously not in love with him yet.
> 
> ...


Not any of Naruto and Sakura's interactions prior to her confession. Or did I miss all the panels of Sakura and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer? Oh ya that' right all we got was SS moments. Nothing that happened between them convinced Naruto that Sakura had good reason to love him, and Sakura couldn't come up with anything either: "You're the hero now. I just switched from Sasuke to you" 

Sakura was doing an awful job, she must be an awful liar I guess. Like when she said, "Listen up I'm making a confession to you now!"  sounds like she's teaching a class or something. During that hug every single person there looked at her in...I don't want to say disgust O___o so I'll go with disappointment, they knew what she was doing. Though sure believe everything she said was a lie except for the love part. 

You already know what I'm going to say, and I already know you're going to disagree. 
I don't think that moment had anything to do with Naruto getting over Sakura. That was purely Naruto acknowledging Hinata as a person he liked. Yes all those moments are Kishimoto not treating NS seriously, and him showing Naruto further accepting that Sakura is out of his reach.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 5, 2014)

NH is blatant only in your deluded fanfiction fantasies. You talking about "literary" wise is hilariously ironic and disingenuous when you perform ass backwards mental gymnastics to make the pairing work. 

Again, you have *zero* evidence of Naruto having any sort of romantic feelings for Hinata, especially when Sakura herself has *openly admitted* that she's *fully aware* that Naruto's in love with her.


The fact that you all keep trying to spin it any other way is just blatantly ignoring what's outright said to you. 

The status quo is essentially the best case scenario for your side.

Naruto gives zero fucks about Hinata's feelings.
Sakura may or may not still love Sasuke
Sasuke cares about no one. 

This is starting to remind me of Zutara and it took till the end of the series for them to accept that they never had a snowball's chance in hell of having their paring become canon.


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## Kage (Jun 5, 2014)

Haha. Obvious from a literary standpoint but literally missing Naruto. That's great. Well can't really say you're the only one who feels this is more of a "NH is canonz and SS is just going through a rough patch" debate thread. But that's what makes the surprise, confusion and damage control all the more fun when things don't go according to plan.


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> NH is blatant only in your deluded fanfiction fantasies. You talking about "literary" wise is hilariously ironic and disingenuous when you perform ass backwards mental gymnastics to make the pairing work.
> 
> Again, you have *zero* evidence of Naruto having any sort of romantic feelings for Hinata, especially when Sakura herself has *openly admitted* that she's *fully aware* that Naruto's in love with her.
> 
> ...




Zutara? It was funny that I never really knew that pairing was a thing, until much later. Looking back I can see they had some evidence maybe with that thing when Katara and Zuko were stuck in that hole, but that wasn't strong at all. There was never Katara > Zuko, and Zuko was very happy with Mei(Or is it may?) lol for the most part. I liked Katara and Aang together, think Zutara would've made for an interesting pairing though.


Kage said:


> Haha. Obvious from a literary standpoint but literally missing Naruto. That's great. Well can't really say you're the only one who feels this is more of a "NH is canonz and SS is just going through a rough patch" debate thread. But that's what makes the surprise, confusion and damage control all the more fun when things don't go according to plan.


ok...well I don't really have much else to say at this point.


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## Kage (Jun 5, 2014)

I wouldn't imagine people who are sold on canon would have much else to say. Once or twice I get but not as often as you've been here Les  free yourself from these chains!


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

Kage said:


> I wouldn't imagine people who are sold on canon would have much else to say. Once or twice I get but not as often as you've been here Les  free yourself from these chains!


Nope. I'm stuck....these chains are holding me down. I'm 99.9% convinced at this moment >u> It feels pretty good though, but that's cause I'm into kinky stuff like this. I honestly have no idea what I'm talking about right now o____o 

I'll probably discuss NH next time something happens between them, which I'm presuming shall be a while. SS is sure to have some moments coming up, positive or negative. So I'm excited to see how all that will play out. That's about it


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> NH is blatantly obvious literary wise, it's been obvious for a while. Of course this debate thread will keep existing though, cause people are in denial, and I do enjoy doing it usually...but I'm feeling so out of steam lately... I don't have too much to say I guess. I'm mostly just waiting for how SS plays out. NH becoming canon is simply a matter of time.



If I had a dollar for every pairing fan that thought their OTP was a sure thing, I'd be richer than Bruce Wayne. Seriously, you only say that because you've become so invested in your pairing you can't see any other way. It's the same thing with people that support NaruSaku, you guys tend to do the exact same shit as the other but it's always a case of "IT'S DIFFERENT THIS TIME". It's not. You always think it's a sure thing until it isn't. I've just noticed it specifically among those that are arguing in favor of SS or sideship NH/SS more than anyone that may simply support NH or simply NS. They have completely abandoned actually trying to make a point and just basically steamroll over Naruto's character and completely dismiss his own interests for whatever they want him to be. Any time he steps outta line he gets thrashed. 

Also what worth does SasuSaku even have at this point? Why do so many that seem to have a problem with NaruSaku turn around to support garbage like SasuSaku? It's leagues worse than any other pairing here. 



> Not any of Naruto and Sakura's interactions prior to her confession. Or did I miss all the panels of Sakura and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer? Oh ya that' right all we got was SS moments. Nothing that happened between them convinced Naruto that Sakura had good reason to love him, and Sakura couldn't come up with anything either: "You're the hero now. I just switched from Sasuke to you"
> 
> Sakura was doing an awful job, she must be an awful liar I guess. Like when she said, "Listen up I'm making a confession to you now!"  sounds like she's teaching a class or something. During that hug every single person there looked at her in...I don't want to say disgust O___o so I'll go with disappointment, they knew what she was doing. Though sure believe everything she said was a lie except for the love part.



SasuSaku moments? Like the ones when if he wasn't belittling her he was trying to kill her? Those kind of moments? Because I'm pretty sure those moments have been highly negative, and highlighting their highly negative dynamic.


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> If I had a dollar for every pairing fan that thought their OTP was a sure thing, I'd be richer than Bruce Wayne. Seriously, you only say that because you've become so invested in your pairing you can't see any other way. It's the same thing with people that support NaruSaku, you guys tend to do the exact same shit as the other but it's always a case of "IT'S DIFFERENT THIS TIME". It's not. You always think it's a sure thing until it isn't. I've just noticed it specifically among those that are arguing in favor of SS or sideship NH/SS more than anyone that may simply support NH or simply NS. They have completely abandoned actually trying to make a point and just basically steamroll over Naruto's character and completely dismiss his own interests for whatever they want him to be. Any time he steps outta line he gets thrashed.
> 
> Also what worth does SasuSaku even have at this point? Why do so many that seem to have a problem with NaruSaku turn around to support garbage like SasuSaku? It's leagues worse than any other pairing here.
> 
> ...


It doesn't take much to see the clear direction Kishi is going with NH, the war arc has made it ridiculously obvious, its surprising really. However of course I know people who don't like it will be in denial, doesn't change the outcome. I'll take back my words when Naruto and Sakura are holding hands together after the war. So I guess I won't really say anything about NH unless something drastic happens in the war, cause theres really nothing against it at the moment.
Until then my final thoughts are: Don't act surprised if it becomes canon. 


I think that relies a lot on what Sasuke has at this point. Will he be "redeemed" or not.  It's not like I emotionally have a problem with NS, if they were both totally into each other than great. Their relationship simply has no romantic dynamic to it. I understand peoples feelings about SS. They don't like the idea of a girl being with someone who tried to kill her. Yet still her feelings of love persist, and if Sasuke has redemption then a relationship could happen. It is indeed possible for people to forgive.

Well I think the moments themselves were supposed to highlight how Naruto knows just how strongly Sakura feels for Sasuke. So probably better to say Sakura >Sasuke moments. Yes Sasuke has gone off the deep end, we all know. He's tried to kill Naruto plenty of times too. Can he still change, ya maybe, but maybe Naruto and him won't be able to work things out. Waiting for more SS interactions at this moment to get a feel of what Kishi's gonna do with them, and Sasuke himself.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It doesn't take much to see the clear direction Kishi is going with NH, the war arc has made it ridiculously obvious, its surprising really. However of course I know people who don't like it will be in denial, doesn't change the outcome. I'll take back my words when Naruto and Sakura are holding hands together after the war. So I guess I won't really say anything about NH unless something drastic happens in the war, cause theres really nothing against it at the moment.



My god, and you just keep doing it...You really think it's different this time. Again, it is amazing how each of you repeat the other's mistakes. Even in other fandoms people like you have said that exact same thing and had to eat their words for it. 

 What is wrong with "I don't know" here? You WANT your pairing to happen, you don't know if it will. That's all right, but don't act like you're a soothsayer or something. Everything is obvious until it doesn't happen. All you have is your speculation, which is honestly why arguing which or the other will happen is irrelevant to the nature of these pairings and what worth they have in happening.



> Until then my final thoughts are: Don't act surprised if it becomes canon.



Proving my point...you know this could easily be reversed. Don't act surprised if it doesn't. 



> I think that relies a lot on what Sasuke has at this point. Will he be "redeemed" or not.  It's not like I emotionally have a problem with NS, if they were both totally into each other than great. Their relationship simply has no romantic dynamic to it. I understand peoples feelings about SS. They don't like the idea of a girl being with someone who tried to kill her. Yet still her feelings of love persist, and if Sasuke has redemption then a relationship could happen. It is indeed possible for people to forgive.




You complain of no romantic dynamic into it, when in that aspect it is simply the same as SasuSaku; one-sided. Major difference being Sasuke has given zero indication toward interest in romance of any kind. Yet it's only for the sake of an "everyone is paired off" ending does it seem to get any support from those supporting it on the side. Redemption simply means he stops being evil, which a lot of people presume is the case now. That has not changed a thing now has it? He's still aloof and dismissive, and more and more of the same negativity is still present. Which supporters actively choose to ignore when it consistently rears its head. 



> Well I think the moments themselves were supposed to highlight how Naruto knows just how strongly Sakura feels for Sasuke.



He's always known that. Virtually from the very start. 



> So probably better to say Sakura >Sasuke moments. Yes Sasuke has gone off the deep end, we all know. He's tried to kill Naruto plenty of times too. Can he still change, ya maybe, but maybe Naruto and him won't be able to work things out. Waiting for more SS interactions at this moment to get a feel of what Kishi's gonna do with them, and Sasuke himself.



Or is it that you won't acknowledge any development between the two that isn't positive?


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You complain of no romantic dynamic into it, when in that aspect it is simply the same as SasuSaku; one-sided. Major difference being Sasuke has given zero indication toward interest in romance of any kind. Yet it's only for the sake of an "everyone is paired off" ending does it seem to get any support from those supporting it on the side. Redemption simply means he stops being evil, which a lot of people presume is the case now. That has not changed a thing now has it? He's still aloof and dismissive, and more and more of the same negativity is still present. Which supporters actively choose to ignore when it consistently rears its head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We disagree there. Though we don't see Part I the same, so I'll leave it there cause we'll run in circles. The moments have been debated to infinity.

I don't think the idea of everyone getting paired off makes it certain at all. It would just a happy ending, which may or may not happen.
Yes you are completely right, just because he gets redeemed doesn't mean him and Sakura will get together. 
I don't wish to ignore the negativity at all, simply to see it addressed. 

As he spent more time with Sakura and observed how she acted towards Sasuke, he simply became more and more sure of whom she had feelings for, not him. 

Nope fully acknowledge theres a lot of negatives in their relationship. Kishimoto has seemingly been building up some sort of situation where all these feelings are addressed, I'm waiting for that, and waiting for more evidence on the direction Sasuke's character will take.


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## Chabal (Jun 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Not any of Naruto and Sakura's interactions prior to her confession. Or did I miss all the panels of Sakura and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer? Oh ya that' right all we got was SS moments. Nothing that happened between them convinced Naruto that Sakura had good reason to love him, and Sakura couldn't come up with anything either: "You're the hero now. I just switched from Sasuke to you"



That's a rather disingenuous way to portray what happend. Sakura didn't just tell him he was the hero, she also mentioned how he cheered her up (which is true) and how he made her feel safe (which is a feeling Hinata shares and is obviously in stark contrast with what Sasuke makes her feel). That's what I meant when I said I didn't believe everything she said was a lie. I also don't get what you mean when you talk about "all the panels of Sakura and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer". Why are you applying these standards to NaruSaku and NaruSaku only? Where are "all the panels of Hinata and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer"? They don't exist. What does exist though is Sakura thinking about Naruto and remembering him in various instances (like when he turned into Kyuubi 4 tails, or when she healed Hinata after Pain stabbed her, or when Sai made that famous speech to her). This has yet to happen with Sasuke thinking about Sakura or Naruto thinking about Hinata. 





> Sakura was doing an awful job, she must be an awful liar I guess. Like when she said, "Listen up I'm making a confession to you now!"  sounds like she's teaching a class or something. During that hug every single person there looked at her in...I don't want to say disgust O___o so I'll go with disappointment, they knew what she was doing. Though sure believe everything she said was a lie except for the love part.
> 
> You already know what I'm going to say, and I already know you're going to disagree.
> I don't think that moment had anything to do with Naruto getting over Sakura. That was purely Naruto acknowledging Hinata as a person he liked. Yes all those moments are Kishimoto not treating NS seriously, and him showing Naruto further accepting that Sakura is out of his reach.



I don't understand this mindset. You were talking about "romantic development" earlier (you didn't answer my question btw, where is the "romantic development with NaruHina?) but the fact we now know Naruto doesn't want to confess to Sakura because he hasn't kept her promise to her is a pretty big development. It answers all these arguments from the NH/SS side asking why Naruto was the only one who didn't confess and instead just had the comedic date requests to show his interest, but weirdly enough this is completely disregarded and I've even seen some people argue that it confirmed their interpretation that Naruto had moved on from Sakura, which is absurd as he should have answered "how could I? She loves someone else" if that was the case. 

It's no wonder you think NaruHina is inevitable and NaruSaku irrelevant when everytime NaruSaku gets an important scene you act like it never happend.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 5, 2014)

> "Memo to me-never. but never never ever pester Sakura-chan again" He?s not an incosiderate moron nor lkes to rile her up in a bad way,  he?s simply.... spontaneous like that. And that pet phrase you find you reminiscent of early par 2 is comedically  repeated for a reason.



So he was just trying to answer on his own accord, because he really wants her to be his girlfriend, and he thinks she could be considered to be sorta his girlfriend. He wasn't messing with her or teasing her at all, just acting on his own feelings. It doesn't change anything, even if you look at it this way. It's pretty clear from this that he is only interested in Sakura.


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

Chabal said:


> That's a rather disingenuous way to portray what happend. Sakura didn't just tell him he was the hero, she also mentioned how he cheered her up (which is true) and how he made her feel safe (which is a feeling Hinata shares and is obviously in stark contrast with what Sasuke makes her feel). That's what I meant when I said I didn't believe everything she said was a lie. I also don't get what you mean when you talk about "all the panels of Sakura and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer". Why are you applying these standards to NaruSaku and NaruSaku only? Where are "all the panels of Hinata and Naruto thinking back to all their moments and how they grew closer"? They don't exist. What does exist though is Sakura thinking about Naruto and remembering him in various instances (like when he turned into Kyuubi 4 tails, or when she healed Hinata after Pain stabbed her, or when Sai made that famous speech to her). This has yet to happen with Sasuke thinking about Sakura or Naruto thinking about Hinata.
> 
> I don't understand this mindset. You were talking about "romantic development" earlier (you didn't answer my question btw, where is the "romantic development with NaruHina?) but the fact we now know Naruto doesn't want to confess to Sakura because he hasn't kept her promise to her is a pretty big development. It answers all these arguments from the NH/SS side asking why Naruto was the only one who didn't confess and instead just had the comedic date requests to show his interest, but weirdly enough this is completely disregarded and I've even seen some people argue that it confirmed their interpretation that Naruto had moved on from Sakura, which is absurd as he should have answered "how could I? She loves someone else" if that was the case.
> 
> It's no wonder you think NaruHina is inevitable and NaruSaku irrelevant when everytime NaruSaku gets an important scene you act like it never happend.


Yes Naruto is the bright cheery guy, who's a hero now and who's been around for her, while Sasuke is the dark anti hero, who's hurt her. Sakura listed all the reasons, and ultimately convinced no one that her confession was truthful. 
Because it was a confession from Sakura to _Naruto_, and the only thing Naruto could think about was all the times he saw how deeply Sakura felt for _Sasuke_. (If you make a confession to someone and the only thing either of you can think about is another person that's probably a red flag.)There were no moments convincing him that she had a logical reason to change to him. Which means there had been nothing in her previous actions that had ever convinced him otherwise, meaning they weren't romantic. All those moments, like that Yamato line, were thrown away with the confession. Kishi made sure to write her confession in a way that it came out as Sakura suddenly/fickly switching over, instead of her reasoning being some sort of long build up over years of romantic developments. I have no idea what her remembering those moments has to do with romantic development between them. Especially when she healed Hinata??

I don't think any Part I interactions between Hinata and Naruto were romantic in nature at the time. I mean sure Hinata had a crush on him, but we didn't get any truly romantic interactions between both of them until this war arc, they just became more fond of each other when they were younger. Though moments like that can be used by Kishi, by having Naruto think back to those moments. If SS happens, Kishimoto also has moments that he could have Sasuke look back on. Though Kishimoto screwed that over for NS with the confession.


I know I didn't answer it. I don't want to get into it. The arguments have been made, I don't want to waste tons of time re-writing them cause....why would I?

The promise is irrelevant, Naruto will help Sasuke regardless of how Sakura feels for him, though he knows she loves Sasuke. The notion of Naruto not feeling worthy of Sakura because he couldn't keep his promise makes no sense. If the promise wasn't there anymore, Naruto should've gone on head and confessed too right there, but he didn't. So whats stopping him now? The fact that he knows she doesn't love him, and maybe just maybe it's possible Naruto himself has been moving on. But nah he just likes holding hands with all the chicks.


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## Corvida (Jun 5, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LesExit (Jun 5, 2014)

So I don't really feel like debating anymore, so I won't be responding until something comes up in the manga, though I'll still read your responses


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## Elicit94 (Jun 6, 2014)

Corvida said:


> And there was poor me hoping you wouldnt choose this option.
> Pray dont say that was a heartfelt declaration from  the love martyr whose lips were tied because of a cruel promise he coudnt keep.....who suddently  -thinks-Sakura-could be-considered-his-sorta.-girlfriend
> .After the Iron land show,
> 
> Just because, the hongue seal got unsealed  he just decided, just like that,  or he gained extra bonus for having a cool dad?



This is Naruto, so you can't expect him to be poking fun of her when it's much more likely that he's being serious while maybe thinking like an idiot, or just deluding himself. There's also no indication that he wanted to brag to his dad other than shallow speculation. Really, all of this still boils down to him wanting Sakura to be his girlfriend while having no interest in Hinata.  



> What part of the "pester" or "poke fun" according of the versions of the Naruto memo you dont  get?
> It?s only clear at this point that the" playing around" is more autopilot that anything that hasnt been used this far.It?s so late in the manga, the guilt trip and the confession  to end all confessions  did a damage so strong to any relevance this disaster  of main and main, could have had  after that flat part 2 that there is  NOTHING, virtually NOTHING new,  that it can offer, All it has been played out, except Sakura defeating the main villain herself.
> 
> Even Naruto?s future romantic disclosure.



I don't know where you got the "pester" translation from, but it doesn't really support your argument, and I don't even see how pestering could used to to say that he wasn't serious about his comment. I'm pretty sure the most accurate translation is either "turn on" or . If it's "turn on" or "defy" that means that it had absolutely nothing to do with the girlfriend comment. The only translation that can support your argument is "poke fun" but that is the one that is most likely to be wrong. Hell, take a look at the viz translation:


*Spoiler*: __ 






If for some reason you want to apply this to the girlfriend comment... he crossed her by answering the question meant for her, or at most saying that she is sorta his girlfriend without her approval. With this translation, you can't possibly argue that he was joking when he made that comment, especially considering the fact that he looked dead serious about it.


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## Chabal (Jun 6, 2014)

Wow, so even the Viz translation that's been used by the NH/SS side recently as proof Sakura was seriously in love with Sasuke says nothing about "joking" at all? So basically the interpretation Naruto was joking with the girlfriend comment is entirely baseless? That's hilarious.


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## Corvida (Jun 6, 2014)

> This is Naruto, so you can't expect him to be poking fun of her when it's much more likely that he's being serious while maybe* thinking like an idiot, or just deluding himself. [*


*

So you?re agreeing with me then-for the sake of any seriosness of that scene, you prefer a hare brained cretin Naruto  and to throw away his maturity and the dignity he had Iron country-thinking like an idiot or deluding himself





			There's also no indication that he wanted to brag to his dad other than shallow speculation. Really, all of this still boils down to him wanting Sakura to be his girlfriend while having no interest in Hinata.  
[
		
Click to expand...


Better an delusional eejit than a teaser or a playful teamamte, of course .Better a serious  momentary brainfart with vcomic reactions added.




			[
I don't know where you got the "pester" translation from, but it doesn't really support your argument,
		
Click to expand...


Spanish oficial trnalation from Planeta dagostini, where our Messiah voew never again to "incordiar"-to annoy in  a bad way, be a pest to Sakura again.




			[]and I don't even see how pestering could used to to say that he wasn't serious about his comment.
		
Click to expand...




Remember part one Nardo? Thats the definition of " ser un  incordio"




			I'm pretty sure the most accurate translation is either "turn on" or . If it's "turn on" or "defy" that means that it had absolutely nothing to do with the girlfriend comment. The only translation that can support your argument is "poke fun" but that is the one that is most likely to be wrong. Hell, take a look at the viz translation:


Spoiler:  






If for some reason you want to apply this to the girlfriend comment... he crossed her by answering the question meant for her, or at most saying that she is sorta his girlfriend without her approval. With this translation, you can't possibly argue that he was joking when he made that comment, especially considering the fact that he looked dead serious about it. 




Click to expand...


[/QUOTE]

Oh Heavens and Earth, Viz is Gospellic again, can we finally use the whole different level of Sakura?s romantic lovel then?

My champion, If you are trying to forgert the "talk back" Viz uses as in "to reply defiantly and insolently"or "to make an impertinent and insolent reply"....that exactly the same thing as planeta and his incordiar did.And he vows never ...againin the Viz versi?n, too? How convenient.

No change, sorry.Naruto knows perfectly what riles Sakura up and that he has done it.....again.


He likes to fool around and cannot help it. Sorry.

What is worse-was only used as a thing silly enough to  show off Sakura?s worst side.

And you know what is worse about his serious seriousnes?'

That as I  told you yesterday,it was made as redundant as Sakura?s endless lub epiphanies, you can thank Sai?s guilt trip and the Mother of all confessions for that, as that?s all the script.
Added bonus, no more than that.

I say it again-the only thing that things has for it is the "hero gest all in the end."*


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## Elicit94 (Jun 6, 2014)

Corvida said:


> So you?re agreeing with me then-for the sake of any seriosness of that scene, you prefer a hare brained cretin Naruto  and to throw away his maturity and the dignity he had Iron country-thinking like an idiot or deluding himself



Saying that she is sorta his girlfriend can hardly be considered to be a confession... it wasn't even him that brought up the idea that she could be his girlfriend. 



> Better an delusional eejit than a teaser or a playful teamamte, of course .Better a serious  momentary brainfart with vcomic reactions added.


Too bad he didn't look like he was teasing or being playful there. 



> Spanish oficial trnalation from Planeta dagostini, where our Messiah voew never again to "incordiar"-to annoy in  a bad way, be a pest to Sakura again.



If you are pestering someone, that means you are not annoying them deliberately. It's incidental. 

He wants to act like a pervert in front of her... he gets beat up
He wants poke fun of her strength... he gets beat up.
He wants to say that she is sorta his girlfriend without her consent... he gets beat up, but he totally meant it.   



> Remember part one Nardo? Thats the definition of " ser un  incordio"



That's because he always wanted to do whatever he wants in front of her. It was never deliberate, but incidental. 



> My champion, If you are trying to forgert the "talk back" Viz uses as in "to reply defiantly and _insolently_"or "to make an _impertinent and insolent _reply"....that exactly the same thing as planeta and his incordiar did.And he vows never *...again*in the Viz versi?n, too? How convenient.
> 
> No change, sorry.Naruto knows perfectly what riles Sakura up and that he has done it.....again.
> 
> ...



So he was talking back to her when he made that comment?  

That was when he was complaining about getting hit by her... perhaps. Did he talk back to Sakura when Minato asked if she was his girlfriend?


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## Corvida (Jun 6, 2014)

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## Elicit94 (Jun 6, 2014)

> Too bad he implied otherwise the very nexct scene or that Sakura put her vader mask of doom as soon as Naruto didnt correct the assumption  instantly. and pummelled him the very next panel.Without even  blustering.



The thing, he is well aware of what riles up Sakura, but that doesn't stop him from doing his means. You can tell that he never actually wanted to correct his assumption, because instead of saying something like "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it!" when he was getting pummeled he just complains about her hitting him. Clearly, he was serious when he said that, and he obviously wasn't trying to tease her. 



> No. Naruto, specially attention seeking part one can get annoying and troublesome deliberatedly, And Naruto perfectly knows  by now what riles Sakura  up and what antics of him annoy her-specially...how your magic viz translation implies-"being impertinent and insolent"-  or for example, as you  say....
> 
> Because, as you masterful put it, and  is a true Uzumaki trait
> 
> Not maliciously deliberate, he?s exuberant like that, but no matter how many times Sakura pummels and chastises him and how comically he vows it?s the last time, ever, or she will disintegrate him. But the mere fact he knows he "talks back-lol thank you Viz to Sakura says a lot.



Yeah, he knows what riles Sakura, but he wanted to answer positively. He REALLY wanted to say to his dad she is sorta his girlfriend, regardless of how she would react, because that's how he feels. 



> Poor Naruto being direspectful by merely saying "it hurts?
> 
> Nope.Naruto always uses his big mouth to be out ot line BEFORE Sakura hulksmashes him-he?s aways soft as a dove when he?s chastised..



Hmm... I guess you can say he was being disrespectful just by replying for her. He never really took back his girlfriend comment.


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## Corvida (Jun 6, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> The thing, he is well aware of what riles up Sakura, but that doesn't stop him from doing his means. You can tell that he never actually wanted to correct his assumption, because instead of saying something like "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it!" when he was getting pummeled he just complains about her hitting him. Clearly, he was serious when he said that, and he obviously wasn't trying to tease




 Oh but he he was trying , as yes, no matter how many times Sakura "corrects" him, that wont stop him  from doing his things-Naruto?s own upbringing can explaina lot.He was. Or worse, he was being a deliberate ass, misleading dead dad.


> [
> Yeah, he knows what riles Sakura, but he wanted to answer positively. He REALLY wanted to say to his dad she is sorta his girlfriend, regardless of how she would react, because that's how he feels.



No, hun-regarfless of _perfectly _knowing Sakura would implode, specially after her Iron land confession fiasco. That was  his being a deliberate pest. 


> Hmm... I guess you can say he was being disrespectful just by replying for her.



That was his first danger point-cue, Sakura vader mask face.

His second _disrecpect _was  bluffing in front of zombie dad-cue-headbutt of a lifetime.  and a tender SHUT YOUR TRAP!!!



> [He never really took back his girlfriend comment.



He hadnt even the time!. His obeying Sakura?s brutality instantly,  comically memoing he should stop _pestering-annoying-being impertinent and disrecpecful t_o avoid being reduced to a stain implies he agrees he shoudnt even had made it.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 6, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Oh but he he was trying , as yes, no matter how many times Sakura "corrects" him, that wont stop him  from doing his things-Naruto?s own upbringing can explaina lot.He was. Or worse, he was being a deliberate ass, misleading dead dad.



It's really sad how you think he would be misleading his dead dad rather than trying to introduce Sakura as a potential romantic partner. 



> That was his first danger point-cue, Sakura vader mask face.
> 
> His second _disrecpect _was  bluffing in front of zombie dad-cue-headbutt of a lifetime.  and a tender SHUT YOUR TRAP!!!





Seriously? It looks like he's bluffing? 



> He hadnt even the time!. His obeying Sakura?s brutality instantly,  comically memoing he should stop _pestering-annoying-being impertinent and disrecpecful t_o avoid being reduced to a stain implies he agrees he shoudnt even had made it.



The use of the word "pester" means that he wasn't being deliberate, or that it doesn't have anything to do with the comment.

Same with the use of the words"defy" and "turn on". 

He wasn't even talking back * to* Sakura, because he was talking to Minato. 

Is this over yet?


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## Revolution (Jun 7, 2014)

The main problem with SasuSaku is not Naruto, but Ino.  Sakura and Ino's friendship was ruined when they let their crush over a mutual guy get in between them.  If either Ino or Sakura is with Sasuke, the other girl may pretend to support the other, but deep inside there will be a wound that will never heal (unless they actually find love somewhere else).

Naruto has always been their for Sakura, but Sasuke is the one Sakura wants.  It's kinda funny when you think about how tragic that is.  Yes, Sakura kind of liked Naruto at the start of part two, but the second she saw Sasuke on that cliff it was all over.

*Question: If Sakura actually has to choose between joining Sasuke's side or Naruto's side in a fight for control of the ninja world, who will she join?*

I think I know the answer to this one.


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## rocci (Jun 7, 2014)

@sarahmint
She will choose naruto.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 7, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> The main problem with SasuSaku is not Naruto, but Ino.  Sakura and Ino's friendship was ruined when they let their crush over a mutual guy get in between them.  If either Ino or Sakura is with Sasuke, the other girl may pretend to support the other, but deep inside there will be a wound that will never heal (unless they actually find love somewhere else).



Pretty sure the main problem with SasuSaku isn't tangential characters, but Sasuke and Sakura themselves. I mean Sasuke gives utterly no shits about anything romantic and hasn't even thought of Sakura as a comrade in 400 chapters. Sakura on the other hand seems to get shit on whenever SS is brought up recently.

You expect me to care more about what it does to Ino here?



> Naruto has always been their for Sakura, but Sasuke is the one Sakura wants.  It's kinda funny when you think about how tragic that is.  Yes, Sakura kind of liked Naruto at the start of part two, but the second she saw Sasuke on that cliff it was all over.



. NS has had plenty of moments from Sakura's side since then. This line you've drawn seems rather arbitrary without much support.



> *Question: If Sakura actually has to choose between joining Sasuke's side or Naruto's side in a fight for control of the ninja world, who will she join?*
> 
> I think I know the answer to this one.



Are you actually saying she'd choose Sasuke's? I really hope not but from the previous paragraph I'm not sure. We can argue about Sakura's romantic (or future) feelings all we want but we have plenty of solid evidence of Sakura supporting Naruto over Sasuke.


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## Corvida (Jun 7, 2014)

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## Elicit94 (Jun 7, 2014)

Corvida said:


> But , sadly, that?s what he?s doing at that precise moment.
> I can undertand how you want delete the Iron land scene from your memory, but you cant send a girl  packing  home( for all you know) telling her she?s lying to herself after she vows you she has switched from evil bastard to you......
> and then you merrily introduce her as you girlfriend-not "potential romantic partner" 3 weeks later without sounding like a complete nunursus.



Or maybe after those events... you know... he just *might* think back to it and think that she actually has a thing for him after all. You're expecting him to not consider the fact that she was finally showing an interest in him, after hugging him in front of the whole village? The Naruto who's in love with Sakura? 

And wtf does nunursus mean anyway?




> He looks like he?s thinking how to tell the awful truth  without being reduced to atomic particles!



How?




> ?Because you say so?-when someone is annoying. rude, obnoxious, irrespectful....is it always without deliberation? Repeat with me in Spanish-in-cor-diar.
> 
> And no, I?m afraid Sakura isnt remotely turned on, deliberatedly or not.



If you "pester" someone, it means that you are being annoying, rude, obnoxious, or disrespectful WITHOUT deliberately being those things. 

I'm pretty sure "turn on" is supposed to mean get her angry here, but not deliberately. Whenever he got her angry before, he was just ignorant or not considering the consequences.



> But he knew he was answering for her, that is, being somewhat disrepecful , and not telling the truth, that was even worse than any mocking.That is, he was pertering her, again, like  in part one best times.



This isn't even Part 1 Naruto. Stop trying to shit on his character development. He just wants view her like a girlfriend. 



> Why?


I don't like you.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 7, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> *Question: If Sakura actually has to choose between joining Sasuke's side or Naruto's side in a fight for control of the ninja world, who will she join?*
> 
> I think I know the answer to this one.



Of course she will stand by Naruto's side if Sasuke was wrong. That's a given. It has nothing to do with whom she loves.
Likewise , Sakura will not take Naruto's side if Naruto suddenly decided he wants to do something bad. It has nothing to do with romantic love.

Sakura is not karin. Karin will choose Sasuke's side even if it means sasuke destroying the world. She doesn't care. Which is not a positive thing if you know what I mean.


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## Corvida (Jun 7, 2014)

> [Or maybe after those events... you know... he just *might* think back to it and think that she actually has a thing for him after all. You're expecting him to not consider the fact that she was finally coming onto him, after hugging him in front of the whole village? The Naruto who's in love with Sakura?





OH, MY.. You have really forgotten Iron land events.

Qucik reminder of what happened after Sakura?s last public display of affection





I see you really, really  want a delusional Naruto.



> And wtf does nunursus mean anyway?


 Cretin.



> How?



"Should I try to drop the bomb without being killed in the attempt?"



> If you "pester" someone, it means that you are being annoying, rude, obnoxious, or disrespectful WITHOUT deliberately being those things.


Or deliberatedly being those things. RemebMer part one Naruto and his obnoxious attention seeking part one personality.
He knew what he was doing.



> I'm pretty sure "turn on" is supposed to mean get her angry here, but not deliberately. Whenever he got her angry before... he was just ignorant or not considering the consequences.


YEP- he doesnt usually consider the consequences, 

Look at us, making words obey us like Humpty dumpty!



> This isn't even Part 1 Naruto. Stop trying to shit on his character development. He just wants view her like a girlfriend.



But you?re the one destroying it cry-he just want, he just want----you constantly paint  him as a delusional ass for the sake of....I dont exactly what!




> I don't like you.



I love you,!


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 7, 2014)

I don't know what Kishi exactly meant by the girlfriend comment. Naruto claiming Sakura is his GF is not actually a good thing for his character if he truly meant it , specially since HE was the one who was 100% sure she still loves someone else AND he was the one who scolded her and told her " I hate people who lie to themselves "
Naruto knows Sakura and him are NOT BF/GF. He himself stated that Sakura still loves Sasuke . Even Sai , the one responsible for the whole Iron country mess and fake confessions also said Sakura still loves Sasuke.
So , either Naruto was lying to his father AND himself because she's not his GF or a sorta GF ( which is stupid and illogical since he told Sakura he hates that kind of people ) OR he was joking about the whole thing and it was actually a jab towards Sakura and her recent fake confession.

Of course knowing Kishi  and his flip-flopping with characters , I wouldn't put it past him as a writer to make Naurto suddenly flip back to his part1 self who does not respect Sakura's feelings or opinions about the matter and goes around claiming she's his GF even though she's not.

If Naruto wanted to show his father he's interested in Sakura , all he had to say is that  " Well , I've always wanted her to be my GF " but saying she's sorta a GF makes it sound like they are actually just starting a romantic relationship which doesn't fit with how their last "romantic" escapade went with him calling her a liar and that she's still pretty much in love with someone else.


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## emachina (Jun 7, 2014)

After reading a lot of these replies, I'm starting to get the opinion that NS and SS fans absolutely hate Sakura. They want her to be with Naruto who she has never been into in a romantic way. She's so not into him that he saw through her "confession" even though he was in an emotionally vulnerable and turbulent time in his life. 

Or they want her to be with Sasuke, who has shown that he thinks nothing of her. In fact, he has gone out of his way to put her down as often as he can, along with attempted murder.

Seriously, I dislike Sakura as a character, but even I don't hate her that much.


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## Kage (Jun 7, 2014)

Much like Sasuke I actually don't care about Sakura. However I also don't feel like it would be the end of the world to have her reconsider her romantic prospects (this doesn't even mean getting with Naruto, he's just the most likely candidate) better yet forget the love business altogether and focus on being a better character ninja. 

So the latter half of part I and the majority of part II where Naruto has been especially considerate of Sakura's feelings mean nothing just because he got a bit mischievous with the GF comment? (which he got hit for btw)

You want to talk about disrespectful insensitive twats? just remember the first thing Sakura did when she found out about Naruto's feelings was to attempt to manipulate them to get him to do what she wanted. 

But no, let's complain about character regression for Naruto cuz he's not on 'Sakura's precious feelings for Sasuke' watch 24/7


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 7, 2014)

Kage said:


> So the latter half of part I and the majority of part II where Naruto has been especially considerate of Sakura's feelings mean nothing just because he got a bit mischievous with the GF comment? (which he got hit for btw)
> 
> You want to talk about disrespectful insensitive twats? just remember the first thing Sakura did when she found out about Naruto's feelings was to attempt to manipulate them to get him to do what she wanted.
> 
> But no, let's complain about character regression for Naruto cuz he's not on 'Sakura's precious feelings for Sasuke' watch 24/7



I am not sure if this is a reply to my post. If it is then my reply is down if it isn't then sorry for misunderstanding.

I wasn't complaining about Naruto being insensitive or being a twat. I was just trying to make sense of that comment and what exactly Kishi meant by it.
Because it doesn't make sense if Naruto really meant it for the soul reason that he was scolding Sakura about lying to herself a month or so before so why does he do the same now?
Or was it a jab at Sakura for her fake confession ? A joke that meant to jab Sakura about her claim of fake love?

I'm not sure. I was just trying to make sense of it in context. Because Kishi making Naruto go back to his old ways is not good writing. But that's not surprising since I said he did that flip-flopping a lot with other characters too.


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## Kage (Jun 7, 2014)

There is no deeper meaning than simple lighthearted banter. Naruto reestablishes his interest in a way that gets him in trouble and sure enough he gets whacked for the implication. I very much doubt the alternative was a subtle jab at Sakura's confession (seriously Naruto's not that petty) let alone meant to question the integrity of his character.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 7, 2014)

Kage said:


> There is no deeper meaning than simple lighthearted banter. Naruto reestablishes his interest in a way that gets him in trouble and sure enough he gets whacked for the implication. I very much doubt the alternative was a subtle jab at Sakura's confession (seriously Naruto's not that petty) let alone meant to question the integrity of his character.



It is not petty when he's joking about it. It's like one of his pranks. She lied about wanting to be his GF so when someone asks him if she is his GF he says " umm ... hmmm ... yeah , she's sorta my GF "  joking about it to reel Sakura up in a lighthearted way
But I agree that Kishi could have very well meant it in a way that Naruto re-established his interest in the same way he used to do it in part 1.


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## Revolution (Jun 7, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> It is not petty when he's joking about it. It's like one of his pranks. She lied about wanting to be his GF so when someone asks him if she is his GF he says " umm ... hmmm ... yeah , she's sorta my GF "  joking about it to reel Sakura up in a lighthearted way
> But I agree that Kishi could have very well meant it in a way that Naruto re-established his interest in the same way he used to do it in part 1.



And where did Minato take it as a joke, hmm?

Naruto was being an asshole.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 7, 2014)

Naruto doesn't think of Sakura's feelings for Sasuke for once? No way, he's poking fun at her! 

God fucking damn.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 7, 2014)

The mental gymnastics you have to come up with to convince yourself that Naruto was joking is pretty goddamn severe.

Holy shit, people.


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## Corvida (Jun 7, 2014)

> Sarahmint said:
> 
> 
> > And where did Minato take it as a joke, hmm?
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 7, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Or deliberatedly being those things. RemebMer part one Naruto and his obnoxious attention seeking part one personality.
> He knew what he was doing.


You still think this is the same Naruto as before...



> But you?re the one destroying it cry-he just want, he just want----you constantly paint  him as a delusional ass for the sake of....I dont exactly what!


Why does he have to be delusional to consider her sorta his girlfriend?


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## Corvida (Jun 7, 2014)

> You still think this is the same Naruto as before...



Of course not, in many things at least, from messianic to god-like powers ups to his getting rid of hatred and many inner demons, learning his parentage and mission....he has grown up and matured a lot , but there are certain Naruto traits, as the loveable thickeaded shounen protagonist type,, that are fixed and remain even in p?rt deux, even if Kishi likes to force the note a Little-remember him asking why Kurenai had gotten so fat, or his loltastic reactions to Hagoromo?s formal speech?


> Why does he have to be delusional to consider her sorta his girlfriend?



Eli, for the love of all the leches, why do you think,  and how can you ask that'?

Do you think Sakura got so furious merely  because Naruto asked for her, after all that has  happened  when Sai guilt tripped her? Remember, she merely got annoyed  when she saw Naruto was interrupting her, when she headbutted him was when he dropped the   G bomb instead of making things clear to dad.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 7, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why does he have to be delusional to consider her sorta his girlfriend?



Because she's not sorta his girlfriend. I'm not saying he's delusional because Naruto for sure knows she's not. 

I just think kishi handled this scene badly. Instead of making Naruto revert back to his part 1 self he should have made him say " I always hoped she is my girlfriend " 

Anyway , if Minato dies thinking Sakura is Naruto's GF I think NS  will most likely become canon. If Minato was used again to troll that GF comment before he dies then I think NS might not become canon. 

Kishi can still go either way but for now I think NS is more likely to happen unless Kishi trolls the GF comment and actually compares Sakura to how Kushina would have treated Naruto , by that I mean like family ( which is farfeched )


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## Elicit94 (Jun 7, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> Because she's not sorta his girlfriend. I'm not saying he's delusional because Naruto for sure knows she's not. )



You don't even know what he means by sorta his girlfriend. You don't even know what he feels about his relationship with Sakura. Nobody really does actually...


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 7, 2014)

It's pretty easy to say that it doesn't matter because she rejected his statement by headbutting him.
Seriously, he can claim her as queen of the universe and he be the king, and if she doesn't want him, there isn't a damn thing going for it other than "Well he's the main character!"


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 7, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> It's pretty easy to say that it doesn't matter because she rejected his statement by headbutting him.
> Seriously, he can claim her as queen of the universe and he be the king, and if she doesn't want him, there isn't a damn thing going for it other than "Well he's the main character!"



I find this heavily ironic considering you ship SS, which he rejected her as a fucking human being, let alone a potential romantic partner.


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## Corvida (Jun 8, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > You don't even know what he means by sorta his girlfriend. You don't even know what he feels about his relationship with Sakura. Nobody really does actually...
> ...


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## Tangle (Jun 8, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> The mental gymnastics you have to come up with to convince yourself that Naruto was joking is pretty goddamn severe.
> 
> Holy shit, people.



Hinata sure must have done the most severe mental gymnastics of us all, she doesn't appear to give a shit about the girlfriend comment joke whatsoever. But I guess the poor girl is just too stupid to acknowledge NS ne?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 8, 2014)

Tangle said:


> Hinata sure must have done the most severe mental gymnastics of us all, she doesn't appear to give a shit about the girlfriend comment joke whatsoever. But I guess the poor girl is just too stupid to acknowledge NS ne?



I wouldn't be surprised if getting with Naruto "once the war is over" was never really her goal... or if she never listened to the girlfriend comment.


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## Corvida (Jun 8, 2014)

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## Arya Stark (Jun 8, 2014)

> Hinata on the other hand, is too quite and not assertive at all, I figure she would be completely overwhelmed by Naruto's more outspoken and rambunctious personality becoming more invisible than she already is.



Chapter 615 says hello.


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 8, 2014)

Actually, opposites attract very well.
They'd balance eachother out.
Naruto would bring Hinata out of her shell (as he already has in the past, through her admiration of his confidence.)
And Hinata will help Naruto calm down and think more critically. That's how that works out.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't really see the point in pandering to a side character who seems to have unrealistic expections, especially considering the fact that the main character is still in love with the girl that he's been into for the whole manga. There is no indication that he ever fell out of love for Sakura, but you expect him to be fickle and just switch to Hinata simply because you think the narrative supports your own view on NH. You also think that he should have rejected her... but when has she ever expressed the desire for him to answer? When Hinata confessed she had no intention to look for an answer and only did it to get it off of her chest, but now you expect every positive moment that he has with her to be a sign that he's falling for her when all he could be doing is just being nice to her. You can't just ignore Naruto's feelings for Sakura just because you think her desire to be with Naruto wouldn't be tossed aside.



CPRSex said:


> Actually, opposites attract very well.



That's not really true. Some people are attracted to opposites, but most others try to find partners that share many similarities with them. I don't see why Naruto would ever find Hinata's personality to be romantically appealing.


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## Griever (Jun 8, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> Chapter 615 says hello.



She has her moments, i'll give her that. But on a day to day basis?, i don't see it. 



CPRSex said:


> Actually, opposites attract very well.
> They'd balance eachother out.
> Naruto would bring Hinata out of her shell (as he already has in the past, through her admiration of his confidence.)
> And Hinata will help Naruto calm down and think more critically. That's how that works out.



Actually that is not true. According to studies,  people tend to follow the likes-attract rule more than opposites when searching for a mate. 
And no, they don't balance each other out, studies have also shown that mates with similar personalities have healthier and longer marriages because they complement and validate each other.


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## Revolution (Jun 8, 2014)

Why is Kenneth deleting. A bunch of posts?  SasuSaku compared to SasuKarin?


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jun 8, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> Why is Kenneth deleting. A bunch of posts?  SasuSaku compared to SasuKarin?



No. The user brought up SasuKarin and NaruSaku. 

Inb4: delete


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## Arya Stark (Jun 8, 2014)

Griever said:


> She has her moments, i'll give her that. But on a day to day basis?, i don't see it. .



The thing is 615 is the cultivation of her growth. If you've seen Hinata moments leading up to that, you can notice Hinata knows exactly what she wants and she's not turning back. With the 615 she finally cements it and proves she's gained a development since the start.

She is not turning back to her old self after this, writing doesn't work that way


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 8, 2014)

> She is not turning back to her old self after this, writing doesn't work that way



Tell that to Sakura.

Hinata's worst trait is being a satellite character. It used to be that I felt unease when those supposed fans of her said that without Naruto, she had no relevance; unfortunately this has become truth.


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## Griever (Jun 8, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> The thing is 615 is the cultivation of her growth. If you've seen Hinata moments leading up to that, you can notice Hinata knows exactly what she wants and she's not turning back. With the 615 she finally cements it and proves she's gained a development since the start.
> 
> She is not turning back to her old self after this, writing doesn't work that way



That shyness will always be a part of her nature. And as i've said, what about on the day to day basis. Will Hinata be able to call Naruto out on the stupid shit he does and says?, will she be able to make the decisions he can't; Sakura gets shit for her actions in the Iron land (or whatever) but i give her props, she at least was willing to take action despite herself.


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## SoulFire (Jun 8, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I don't really see the point in pandering to a side character who seems to have unrealistic expections, especially considering the fact that the main character is still in love with the girl that he's been into for the whole manga. There is no indication that he ever fell out of love for Sakura, but you expect him to be fickle and just switch to Hinata simply because you think the narrative supports your own view on NH. You also think that he should have rejected her... but when has she ever expressed the desire for him to answer? When Hinata confessed she had no intention to look for an answer and only did it to get it off of her chest, but now you expect every positive moment that he has with her to be a sign that he's falling for her when all he could be doing is just being nice to her. You can't just ignore Naruto's feelings for Sakura just because you think her desire to be with Naruto wouldn't be tossed aside.



I actually see no clear indication that Naruto has continued with his crush on Sakura. The only serious indication of his feelings for her date way back to Sai's flashback. Plenty has happened since that time that just might have influenced those feelings. A few comedic panels here and there since then just doesn't cut it for me--especially following the growing development in Naruto and Hinata's relationship--every positive moment may not be a sign that he has presently fallen in love with her, but with every moment he is drawn closer to her.

It is easy to ignore Naruto's continued romantic feelings for Sakura when they are not apparent to me. 



> That's not really true. Some people are attracted to opposites, but most others try to find partners that share many similarities with them. I don't see why Naruto would ever find Hinata's personality to be romantically appealing.





Griever said:


> Actually that is not true. According to studies,  people tend to follow the likes-attract rule more than opposites when searching for a mate.
> And no, they don't balance each other out, studies have also shown that mates with similar personalities have healthier and longer marriages because they complement and validate each other.



All I can do is look at my marriage as an example. I'll be married 40 years in September.  I am the Naruto in our relation ship, as I am extroverted, loud and blunt; my hubby is of a quieter, more serious nature. We are very different in personality, but we also have mutual interests and enjoy one another's company. We also accept that we also have different interests (such as his pool and my Naruto addiction ) and are all right with that. What makes a good match is a balanced amount of similarities _and_ differences in personality.



Griever said:


> That shyness will always be a part of her nature. And as i've said, what about on the day to day basis. Will Hinata be able to call Naruto out on the stupid shit he does and says?, will she be able to make the decisions he can't; Sakura gets shit for her actions in the Iron land (or whatever) but i give her props, she at least was willing to take action despite herself.



Personally, I don't consider Naruto all that stupid 'on a day to day basis.' Yes, he has a silly streak, but he is serious about his duties and obligations. He does not need someone to 'keep him in line'. Hinata tends to quiet Naruto and give him a more introspective view. Nor is a shy personality necessarily shy in his/her established personal relationships. We already see Hinata's shyness around Naruto dissipating as her confidence in their relationship grows. 

I give Hinata props as well, for pushing through her fears and doubts to act and nearly give her all for the one she loves (not to mention taking the initiative to slap him back to reality when he needed it most).


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## shurei (Jun 8, 2014)

Hinata is a satellite character. It's sad but true.


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## bluemiracle (Jun 8, 2014)

shurei said:


> Hinata is a satellite character. It's sad but true.



Even if Hinata isn’t a main character I don’t see how that means her dreams and goals have less relevance.  Unless you’re a psychic (or Kishi from the future) and already saw how this manga ends, that doesn’t mean much, if anything.

Actually I can't believe this is even used as a real argument


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## Kage (Jun 8, 2014)

> doesn’t mean much, if anything.


Exactly. Hinata's goals and dreams are no more important than any other supporting character in the grand scheme of things. They exist but there's way more "psychics" in here betting it matters more that she achieve them than not.



> Actually I can't believe this is even used as a real argument


There are those who would argue her character would be pointless without and quite frankly that's much worse than calling a spade a spade.


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## shurei (Jun 8, 2014)

bluemiracle said:


> Even if Hinata isn’t a main character I don’t see how that means her dreams and goals have less relevance.


 It doesn't, looks at Lee



> Unless you’re a psychic (or Kishi from the future) and already saw how this manga ends, that doesn’t mean much, if anything.


 Nope don't know the ending but I can guess it won't be NH or SS.


> Actually I can't believe this is even used as a real argument


There was no argument presented.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 8, 2014)

bluemiracle said:


> Even if Hinata isn’t a main character I don’t see how that means her dreams and goals have less relevance.  Unless you’re a psychic (or Kishi from the future) and already saw how this manga ends, that doesn’t mean much, if anything.
> 
> Actually I can't believe this is even used as a real argument



Probably because the "main" isn't included when describing her? Furthermore, that's not what a "satellite character" implies.

Also perhaps you should tell your friends that whom are saying under no ambiguous terms, NaruHina WILL happen, and by extension more times than not, SasuSaku...I never understood the sideshipping thing. On a matter of values these two pairings are on the complete opposite end of another.


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

shurei said:


> It doesn't, looks at Lee


Lee is not Hinata, really. He has feelings for Sakura, indeed, but never did he persistently pursue her love, because he's aware of who she trully loves (he witnessed the PoaL and "Please, please, bring Sasuke-kun back!") and, moreover, he respects her and feeling more than he wants to date her. He protected her several times in the past, he probably wants to protect her in the future as well and, let's be honest, he _would like_ her to fall for him (judging from his dream), but it's not like he's going to compete with Naruto, Sasuke, and anyone to get her to love him. That's not Rock Lee's spring time of youth manga.
Unlike him, Hinata has already shown to us that she loves Naruto deeply and wants to be with him. 
Unlike him, she's determined to be with Naruto (while carrying the same respect for him cause he's the one who changed her). Her "crush" has been given too much attention. What I'm saying is that their dreams are not on the same level. You cannot just compare them like this.

Also, I'd like to say that I _adore_ the argument that  Naruto's feelings for Sakura were stated in Chapter 3 and there have been no clear indications that he has moved on from her up until now, which definitely implies that he still loves her. 
Yes, he never stated he didn't love Sakura anymore, but he never OPENLY stated he still loved her either!
Hinata, on the other hand, has already stated her feelings for him several times. But she's a "satelite character", isn't she, huh? Her feelings don't count. 
Let's move to Sakura, then. She's one of the main characters. 
Sakura's feelings get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. No, Sakura's feelings FOR SASUKE get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. They seem to be more relevant than Naruto's supposed love for her. So why do people claim that Naruto's unconfirmed and unclear feelings have more relevance than the feelings of these two girls, when they are clearly emphasized almost every time?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 9, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I actually see no clear indication that Naruto has continued with his crush on Sakura. The only serious indication of his feelings for her date way back to Sai's flashback. Plenty has happened since that time that just might have influenced those feelings. A few comedic panels here and there since then just doesn't cut it for me--especially following the growing development in Naruto and Hinata's relationship--every positive moment may not be a sign that he has presently fallen in love with her, but with every moment he is drawn closer to her.
> 
> It is easy to ignore Naruto's continued romantic feelings for Sakura when they are not apparent to me.


Don't you think that if Naruto's feelings were just a crush, Sakura would be aware of that?



This doesn't look the face of someone that is realizing how much of a crush Naruto has on her. It's pretty evident that she knows he's deeply in love with her.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Sakura still wants to atone for saddling him with the burden of the promise even when he stated that "It's not just about the promise" (This is the correct one) or "It's not about that promise". The narrative doesn't support the notion that Sai was wrong about Naruto being in love with Sakura. There's a lot more to his feelings than what meets your eyes.  

If you still do not acknowledge that he's in love with Sakura, then I really don't know what else to tell you. I've tried everything to get people to see things the way it should be when it comes to his feelings.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 9, 2014)

Again, the only people who deny Naruto's ridiculously obvious feelings for Sakura are those who have an emotional investment in NH/SS being the final outcome.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:
			
		

> Unlike him, Hinata has already shown to us that she loves Naruto deeply and wants to be with him.
> Unlike him, she's determined to be with Naruto (while carrying the same respect for him cause he's the one who changed her). Her "crush" has been given too much attention. What I'm saying is that their dreams are not on the same level. You cannot just compare them like this



Lee. The defintion of guts and determination, not determined about a clear goal in his life. Well, if you wanted to discredit yourself you already have.

No the difference here is, Hinata has no depth to her character outside of Naruto. Naruto is what her character is all about, in contrast to Lee that can be defined on a multitude of things one of which includes his own amorous pursuits. 



> Sakura's feelings get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. No, Sakura's feelings FOR SASUKE get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. They seem to be more relevant than Naruto's supposed love for her. So why do people claim that Naruto's unconfirmed and unclear feelings have more relevance that the feelings of these two girls, when they are clearly emphasized almost every time?



Probably because they have little to their character aside from that, and it ultimately takes a backseat to their male counterparts, in turn, like so many other things meaning absolutely nothing ultimately? Kishi has made it more than clear his perceptions of women and his perceptions of men, on this matter included. I do like how arguments like these *always* ignore the male's side of the equation too.

I suppose in your case you'd have to, since the male's side of the equation has a number of um...to put lightly, less than stellar acts toward the female party.


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## pizza_blade (Jun 9, 2014)

Oh now we are denying Naruto ---> Sakura now?

That's just bloody silly. He just remarked to his dead-Father that Sakura was his girlfriend, and people say this?

Even if it's *just a joke*, which NaruSaku naysayers are so fond of saying, this *clearly* implies how Naruto still sees Sakura in terms of romantic feelings.



Vishka said:


> Sakura's feelings get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. No, Sakura's feelings FOR SASUKE get new confirmation almost every 100 chapters. They seem to be more relevant than Naruto's supposed love for her. So why do people claim that Naruto's unconfirmed and unclear feelings have more relevance than the feelings of these two girls, when they are clearly emphasized almost every time?



Most probably because that at all the times they are "clearly emphasized almost every time", the subject of their affection does not give a crap to their feelings.


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## Revolution (Jun 9, 2014)

I hope my feeling is correct that Kishi is purposely trolling parings, like SasuSaku, to present a scenario where the person you idealize and think you want is not the person you end up with or truly fall for in the end.

It would work because Sasuke and Sakura are likely to end up on opposite sides.  

Why do you want a pair of people who are on opposite sides by choice?


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## Corvida (Jun 9, 2014)

[





> Seto Kaiba said:
> 
> 
> > Lee. The defintion of guts and determination, not determined about a clear goal in his life. .
> ...


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Lee. The defintion of guts and determination, not determined about a clear goal in his life. Well, if you wanted to discredit yourself you already have.


Oh, so now Lee's goal of his life is Sakura, right? Quite interesting. And where did you take that from? Because I have always thought he wanted to become a great shinobi even without using ninjutsu and show that hard work > talent in the first place. Prove me wrong with manga pages, please, if you can, cause I don't remeber him stating Sakura was his goal. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> No the difference here is, Hinata has no depth to her character outside of Naruto. Naruto is what her character is all about, in contrast to Lee that can be defined on a multitude of things one of which includes his own amorous pursuits.


I completely disagree with you on the _"Hinata has no depth to her character outside of Naruto"_ matter because of the whole Neji and Hyuga clan thing and her wishing to change herself and become stronger, but that aside.
If Naruto plays such a big part in her character development, do you think Kishi would emphasize her feelings just to make him reject her? You say that she has no depth to her character outside of Naruto, but if Naruto is sooooo head over heels for Sakura, then why would the narrator give her feelings that much importance? Just to destroy her as a character at the end of the manga, because "Naruto's feelings are the only thing that matters"?



Seto Kaiba said:


> Probably because they have little to their character aside from that, and it ultimately takes a backseat to their male counterparts, in turn, like so many other things meaning absolutely nothing ultimately? Kishi has made it more than clear his perceptions of women and his perceptions of men, on this matter included. *I do like how arguments like these always ignore the male's side of the equation too.*
> 
> I suppose in your case you'd have to, since the male's side of the equation has a number of um...to put lightly, less than stellar acts toward the female party.


Let's not ignore the fact that the male characters have been primarily interested in some other things (war, revenge, for example). To me, in this particular manga love is a female business, and the main male characters like Naruto and Sasuke have not openly stated their feelings for anyone. To me, they are a question mark, but I see strong emphase on Sakura ---> Sasuke and Hinata ---> Naruto, and that makes me believe they are relevant and should be taken into consideration in the first place, when speaking about the love aspect of the manga.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:


> Oh, so now Lee's goal of his life is Sakura, right? Quite interesting. And where did you take that from? Because I have always thought he wanted to become a great shinobi even without using ninjutsu and show that hard work > talent in the first place. Prove me wrong with manga pages, please, if you can, cause I don't remeber him stating Sakura was his goal.



He takes his aspirations very seriously, one of which since you missed it the first time, are Sakura's affections. 



> I completely disagree with you on the _"Hinata has no depth to her character outside of Naruto"_ matter because of the whole Neji and Hyuga clan thing and her wishing to change herself and become stronger, but that aside.



The clan matter is more relevant to Neji than herself. Her character is defined almost purely by her relation to Naruto.



> If Naruto plays such a big part in her character development, do you think Kishi would emphasize her feelings just to make him reject her?



Yes, because that is the only thing noteworthy about her. It doesn't necessarily indicate any bearing to the greater story as a whole. Almost literally, every time she shows up it's for her to say "Naruto-kun" or something like that. That is less emphasis and more her being one-dimensional.



> You say that she has no depth to her character outside of Naruto, but if Naruto is sooooo head over heels for Sakura, then why would the narrator give her feelings that much importance? Just to destroy her as a character at the end of the manga, because Naruto's feelings are the only thing that matters?



Naruto's feelings for Sakura don't have to be reciprocated either. 

The feelings for each character are just there to add a dynamic between the characters in the story. They don't have to necessarily go anywhere. 



> Let's not ignore the fact that the male characters have been primarily interested in some other things (war, revenge, for example).



Refer to: 

"Kishi perceives males very differently from females, on this matter included"

Because he feels more comfortable writing male characters in-depth, because he personally believes this aspect defines a woman more than it does a man. Girls are typically, defined by how they relate to a male character; while their counterparts are more multi-dimensional. 



> To me, in this particular manga love is a female business, and the main male characters like Naruto and Sasuke have not openly stated their feelings for anyone


. 

Sasuke has given zero indication of interest in this matter.

Naruto has clearly expressed interest in this matter, regardless of whether or not it is an interest which you want for him. Insofar, that interest is Sakura. A lot of you have taken what you want of this guy, and tried to pass it off as absolute truth. Doing the same thing you all have often complained of Sakura fans, but rather than own up to that folly just try to justify the double-standard.



> To me, they are a question mark, but I see strong emphase on Sakura ---> Sasuke and Hinata ---> Naruto, and that makes me believe they are relevant and should be taken into consideration in the first place, when speaking about the love aspect of the manga.



They're a question mark because their characters are at a point where you don't personally want them to be. Even if the story may have answered the question already. It's a continuous shifting of goalposts and application of double-standards to prevent from acknowledging matters you don't like on this matter. Most notably such as, Sasuke's lack of interest in Sakura and his poor treatment of her.


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He takes his aspirations very seriously, one of which since you missed it the first time, are Sakura's affections.


Sakura is not his aspiration and she never was to begin with. Calling her his love interest is acceptable, since he liked her in Part I and may still like her now, but it's pretty clear she's neither the goal of his life nor his aspiration. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> The clan matter is more relevant to Neji than herself. Her character is defined almost purely by her relation to Naruto.


Her relations with her family and her father (the fact that she's weaker than her little sister) are defined by her relation to Naruto as well?  



Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes, because that is the only thing noteworthy about her. It doesn't necessarily indicate any bearing to the greater story as a whole. *Almost literally, every time she shows up it's for her to say "Naruto-kun" or something like that. *That is less emphasis and more her being one-dimensional.


If she was irrelevant and one-dimensional and her feelings didn't matter at all, she would simply remain a dark weido she was in Part I, with almost zero development, like Kiba or Shino, yet she has become really important to the plotline, especially  and . Why would the narrator do that, if he didn't plan on developing her and her love further? Especially when her love interest doesn't look like he's rejecting her.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Naruto's feelings for Sakura don't have to be reciprocated either.
> 
> The feelings for each character are just there to add a dynamic between the characters in the story. They don't have to necessarily go anywhere.


We're not talking about whether Naruto's feelings will be reciprocated or not. My question was, would Kishi develop her from a weirdo to _at the very least_ a more confident person, willing to give her life for the one she loves, just to destroy her in the end. I guess, he wouldn't. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> Sasuke has given zero indication of interest in this matter.
> 
> Naruto has clearly expressed interest in this matter, regardless of whether or not it is an interest which you want for him. Insofar, that interest is Sakura. A lot of you have taken what you want of this guy, and tried to pass it off as absolute truth. Doing the same thing you all have often complained of Sakura fans, but rather than own up to that folly just try to justify the double-standard.


Naruto has clearly expressed his interest in Part I, saying there was a girl named Sakura who he kind of liked. In Part II the only confirmation of his supposed feelings for her are Sai's words, guilt-tripping Sakura and leading to the Failfession. In which Naruto openly expressed his  to Sakura switching from Sasuke to him. We also have him holding Hinata's hand, if you don't remember. He rejects his love interest, because he doesn't believe she would fall for him all of a sudden, and then holds the other girl's hand, giving her hope that he may return her feelings. To me, his feelings are not clear at all.



Seto Kaiba said:


> They're a question mark because their characters are at a point where you don't personally want them to be. Even if the story may have answered the question already. It's a continuous shifting of goalposts and application of double-standards to prevent from acknowledging matters you don't like on this matter. Most notably such as, Sasuke's lack of interest in Sakura and his poor treatment of her.


Sasuke doesn't give Sakura special treatment. He treats her the way he treats other people, including Naruto. This is the way he is. I would disagree if you said it was clear that Sasuke hated Sakura especially, but no, he doesn't. She's his teammate and he saves her when her life is in danger. This doesn't necessarily mean that he harbors any feelings for her, but it indicates he doesn't hate her either.


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## Sete (Jun 9, 2014)

Whoa someone is in for a suprise. My toughts are know to everyone about this matter.
And the arguments are always the same. Satellite character. 
Why the hell would kishi focus so much on the romantic aspect of a "satellite" character?
Oh I know poor writing. The excuse when you dont like what you read. Yep thats it.


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## pizza_blade (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:


> Naruto has clearly expressed his interest in Part I, saying there was a girl named Sakura who he kind of liked. *In Part II the only confirmation of his supposed feelings for her are Sai's words*, guilt-tripping Sakura and leading to the Failfession. In which Naruto openly expressed his  to Sakura switching from Sasuke to him. We also have him holding Hinata's hand, if you don't remember. He rejects his love interest, because he doesn't believe she would fall for him all of a sudden, and then holds the other girl's hand, giving her hope that he may return her feelings. To me, his feelings are not clear at all.



"You like her, don't you?" "Have you told her your feelings yet?" scene.

The (in?)famous Minato scene. 

Both directly comes from his own mouth, from his own admission, from his own words. 



Vishka said:


> Sasuke doesn't give Sakura special treatment. He treats her the way he treats other people, including Naruto. This is the way he is. I would disagree if you said it was clear that Sasuke hated Sakura especially, but no, he doesn't. She's his teammate and he saves her when her life is in danger. This doesn't necessarily mean that he harbors any feelings for her, but *it indicates he doesn't hate her either.*



He also didn't give a crap about destroying her self-worth and self-esteem. That anyone would want Sakura to be paired to the likes of him is simply just something I do not understand. Do you not value a person that values your self-worth when looking in a relationship? I-just-don't-understand.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hinata the speshul snowfalek who is meant to get with Naruto


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> "You like her, don't you?" "Have you told her your feelings yet?" scene.
> 
> The (in?)famous Minato scene.
> 
> Both directly comes from his own mouth, from his own admission, from his own words.


Another Sai scene, huh? I counted it as one, because they both are related to the Failfession. I wouldn't separate them into two independent moments, however I don't really care. If you insist, then let it be.
There are two, *only two* confirmations of Naruto's feelings _in the entire Part II_. Wow.

Minato scene was meant to be comic relief, but that's already been discussed a thousand times, so I don't want to start it again.




pizza_blade said:


> He also didn't give a crap about destroying her self-worth and self-esteem. That anyone would want Sakura to be paired to the likes of him is simply just something I do not understand. Do you not value a person that values your self-worth when looking in a relationship? I-just-don't-understand.


He didn't destroy neither her self-worth nor self-esteem, you're exaggerating. _"And what would you do if you found out?" _and _"Right now, there's nothing you can do"_ didn't destroy her self-esteem. He was rude, sure, but he didn't intend to humiliate her or anything like that, it's just the way he tends to reply to people.


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## pizza_blade (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:


> Another Sai scene, huh? I counted it as one, because they both are related to the Failfession. I wouldn't separate them into two independent moments, however I don't really care. If you insist, then let it be.
> There are two, *only two* confirmations of Naruto's feelings _in the entire Part II_. Wow.
> 
> Minato scene was meant to be comic relief, but that's already been discussed a thousand times, so I don't want to start it again.



Ah well, of course they didn't count since they did not suit your narrative.

And oh well, there you go, there's "comic relief" reasoning again. You're right, It has been discussed a thousand times though, and still people so strongly use that "comic relief" as a clutch again and again as if their life depended on it. Ah well. 

And hey, at least two is better than none at all, which is exactly Sasuke gave towards Sakura! Unless you count trying to kill her as a gesture of romance, that is. 



Vishka said:


> He didn't destroy neither her self-worth nor self-esteem, you're exaggerating. _"And what would you do if you found out?" _and _"Right now, there's nothing you can do"_ didn't destroy her self-esteem. He was rude, sure, but he didn't intend to humiliate her or anything like that, it's just the way he tends to reply to people.



Uh huh, right, him stating that she's useless, complete with a panel of her downed expression, didn't count. "He didn't intend to humiliate her" is really a funny line though; I mean damn, Kishi even bothered to draw a panel of her feeling down and made Naruto make a retort immediately afterwards. But that didn't count! I am sure Sakura didn't fell at all humiliated because of his words, I mean he didn't mean it!

But you're right, that's just the way he tends to reply to people. Even including the girl that some'd argue to the death should become a subject of his endearing affection and love. Which just makes the entire thing even more ridiculous and funny.

NaruHina = I can understand. SasuSaku = not so much.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:


> Sakura is not his aspiration and she never was to begin with. Calling her his love interest is acceptable, since he liked her in Part I and may still like her now, but it's pretty clear she's neither the goal of his life nor his aspiration.



Seriously having a hard time with this? He has many goals in life, one of his goals are Sakura's affections. This is not something to be disputed here. 



> Her relations with her family and her father (the fact that she's weaker than her little sister) are defined by her relation to Naruto as well?



It ultimately goes back to how she relates to Naruto, yes. 



> If she was irrelevant and one-dimensional and her feelings didn't matter at all, she would simply remain a dark weido she was in Part I, with almost zero development, like Kiba or Shino, yet she has become really important to the plotline, especially  and . Why would the narrator do that, if he didn't plan on developing her and her love further? Especially when her love interest doesn't look like he's rejecting her.



Each of which are her having her moment in the spotlight only to go into the background again. You see special meaning to it because you want it to be special, when anyone reading this can see that Kishi afforded such similar moments to most of the rookies. You can ask why he would do that if he didn't plan on them getting bigger roles, and you can answer all the same that it was simply their time in the spotlight. 



> We're not talking about whether Naruto's feelings will be reciprocated or not. My question was, would Kishi develop her from a weirdo to _at the very least_ a more confident person, willing to give her life for the one she loves, just to destroy her in the end. I guess, he wouldn't.



Yes, because her character is defined by her love interest. Naruto has more to him than that. Again, since you seem to constantly miss the point here....neither case have to be reciprocated. The infatuations are only adding to a layer of the dynamics between the character, they don't necessarily have to be resolved. 



> Naruto has clearly expressed his interest in Part I, saying there was a girl named Sakura who he kind of liked. In Part II the only confirmation of his supposed feelings for her are Sai's words, guilt-tripping Sakura and leading to the Failfession.



Naruto has expressed interest in part II, really no reason to claim anything to the contrary because no statement has been made to the contrary. Furthermore, Sai didn't guilt-trip Sakura to confess anything. All of that lies squarely on her shoulders. Sai knows the feelings of his teammates, and he knows there is a triangle there as the arc had established. Again, it doesn't fit with how you want things to be so naturally you'd dismiss it. 



> In which Naruto openly expressed his  to Sakura switching from Sasuke to him.



An attitude in response to being false, not in response to the idea of her falling for him instead. It has become abundantly clear already he would like her affection, but as Sai's recollections make clear, feel unworthy of addressing them. It's also clear that he puts every aspiration and goal secondary to his rescuing of Sasuke, that he prioritizes her and everyone's needs and feelings over his own. That is simply what kind of person he is. 



> We also have him holding Hinata's hand, if you don't remember. He rejects his love interest, because he doesn't believe she would fall for him all of a sudden, and then holds the other girl's hand, giving her hope that he may return her feelings. To me, his feelings are not clear at all



You pretend like these events happened in sequential order, when they didn't'. Furthermore, again, you ignore anything that would indicate the contrary in-between and after those events because that is not the narrative you want to see in the story. 



> Sasuke doesn't give Sakura special treatment. He treats her the way he treats other people, including Naruto. This is the way he is. I would disagree if you said it was clear that Sasuke hated Sakura especially, but no, he doesn't.



He doesn't hate her.

Worse yet, he doesn't give a shit about her. Yet here you are unsurprisingly making excuses for his abhorrence. 



> She's his teammate and he saves her when her life is in danger. This doesn't necessarily mean that he harbors any feelings for her, but it indicates he doesn't hate her either.



Once he did it. Afterward, he was going to let her fry with the alliance, and did not care at all when Madara had her at his mercy. 

Massively hypocritical of you I might add, you are giving this wide benefit of the doubt as far as he goes because you simply want him to be with Sakura. Regardless of the negative development thrown in our face time and again, and less of principle on the matter on top of that. 



Sete said:


> Whoa someone is in for a suprise. My toughts are know to everyone about this matter.
> And the arguments are always the same. Satellite character.
> Why the hell would kishi focus so much on the romantic aspect of a "satellite" character?
> Oh I know poor writing. The excuse when you dont like what you read. Yep thats it.



You really do have a hard time reading. Are you legitimately illiterate?


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

pizza_blade said:


> And hey, at least two is better than none at all, which is exactly Sasuke gave towards Sakura! Unless you count trying to kill her as a gesture of romance, that is.


The same applies to your pairing, actually.
Sakura hasn't shown any sign of affection towards Naruto. She cares about him, worries about him, but she doesn't love him in a romantic way and never did. 
Unless you count the CRP scene as a gesture of romance, of course.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Yeah, but SasuSaku is just incredibly fucked up. I can't say that about the other two, at least you don't have to play mental gymnastics to argue why a girl should be going to a guy that tried to kill her with either of those. It's just a matter for them more than anything, seeing what they want to see. So they argue from that perspective, each convinced of their own truth. SasuSaku however, you actually have to argue against all the common sensibilities of what constitutes a healthy relationship.


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## Corvida (Jun 9, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sete (Jun 9, 2014)

My dear seto kaiba its the second time you say that. And in time I will be proven right and that will be a lot more satisfying than insulting you. Personally attacking people makes poor arguments.
I decided to edit my response because honestly i should not go down to your level. 
Maybe next time.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 9, 2014)

Sete said:


> Whoa someone is in for a suprise. My toughts are know to everyone about this matter.
> And the arguments are always the same. Satellite character.
> Why the hell would kishi focus so much on the romantic aspect of a "satellite" character?
> Oh I know poor writing. The excuse when you dont like what you read. Yep thats it.



Hinata is literally the poster girl for a satellite character.

Take away her feelings for Naruto.

What else is known about her that has some meaning and depth outside of deluded fanon interpretations of her character?

As much as I give Team 7 shit for the dumbfuckery they do, at the _very least_ the three of them have actual personalities that can stand on their own two feet outside of their perspective romantic partners.

There are throwaway Bleach characters that have more depth than Hinata. That's fucking sad and pathetic.


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## Sete (Jun 9, 2014)

And did I negate that? No.
Hinatas development is tied to Naruto. Since part 1. 
And now I ask you why? Why would the author write her development that way?
Almost every interaction between them has been of support or romantic.
It has a purpose to be that way.
But while we speculate, because until the end either side of the discussion is just speculating, anything could happen. 
And thats MY OPINION on this matter.Despite being fairly confident on what can happen I can be wrong.
Regarding caracther development Hinata is not the only one lacking.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Sete said:


> My dear seto kaiba its the second time you say that. And in time I will be proven right again. Personally attacking people makes poor arguments.
> But when you dont have a valid argument its always good to try and downplay the others.
> Im not illiterate but you are for sure a moron. (Since you want to go this way).
> Having your head stuck up your own ass does not make you right.
> And for reading comprehension you might be lacking some, but I wont preach to the deaf.



I'll state it so long as you give the impression. Furthermore, it was a simple question because you seem hard of understanding a clearly expressed statement. Instead, continuing on with that simplistic prattle that the only reason people dislike something is because they didn't expect it. A symptom of this fandom in particular which people are too hung up on being right on a matter, even if ultimately it means nothing in regard to the critical reception of it. Plenty of people see things coming, or expect something this is not the same as liking it. All the same people see unexpected events and warm up to it.

Whether something is unexpected or expected is ultimately not what measures its quality of writing. Yet every time I point this out you avoid it, because you have shit to say in response to it. It's much easier to go on your knuckle-dragging simplifications of simple fandom lines rather than the standard of the general reader that assesses something as good or bad regardless of whether or not the writing had expected or unexpected events.

I mean the irony in your entire response, seriously. A tirade far more personal than I have ever went at with you only means not only have you by your own terms, sunk at my level, you went even lower.


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## Vishka (Jun 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Each of which are her having her moment in the spotlight only to go into the background again. You see special meaning to it because you want it to be special, when anyone reading this can see that Kishi afforded such similar moments to most of the rookies. You can ask why he would do that if he didn't plan on them getting bigger roles, and you can answer all the same that it was simply their time in the spotlight.


Well, _any _character has his or her time to shine and then inevitably goes in the background, and even Naruto has these rare moments. Naruto is a big part of her character development, indeed, but if her time to shine was supposed to be taken as a rare moment of her showing her strength or being in the spotlight, her feelings for him shouldn't have been emphasized that much. 
I see your point, you think that she only had those moments and that's all, but what I'm saying (again), that it was Kishi's intent to stress her affection. You say, she has very little to her character outside of Naruto, but that could be easily changed by Kishi himself, which would allow him to make her have moments to shine, that wouldn't be related to Naruto in any way. Yet he didn't do that. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes, because her character is defined by her love interest. Naruto has more to him than that. Again, since you seem to constantly miss the point here....neither case have to be reciprocated. *The infatuations are only adding to a layer of the dynamics between the character, they don't necessarily have to be resolved. *


Then the same thing can be applied to Naruto as well, even if he is the main character of the series. Why don't you consider the fact that his interest in Sakura could be some kind of dynamics between him and Sakura, and not a serious crush or even love? Just like you said, neither case have to be reciprocated, including Naruto's feelings.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Naruto has expressed interest in part II, really no reason to claim anything to the contrary because no statement has been made to the contrary.


Excuse me, _what kind of interest_ did he express? _Serious_ interest in her becoming his girlfriend? Or was he planning to confess to her after bringing Sasuke back, just like he promised to her? He knew she loved the other person and even if he did bring Sasuke back, I doubt he would confess.



Seto Kaiba said:


> An attitude in response to being false, not in response to the idea of her falling for him instead. It has become abundantly clear already he would like her affection, but as Sai's recollections make clear, feel unworthy of addressing them.


He would like her _attention_, because the very idea of Sakura falling out of love with Sasuke and switching to him seems false to him. He felt unworthy because he could not keep his promise to her, but she came there to free him from it, yet he could not believe this sudden change in her feelings. This is not about him being unworthy, it's about him accepting the fact that she simply doesn't love him. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> You pretend like these events happened in sequential order, when they didn't'. Furthermore, again, *you ignore anything that would indicate the contrary in-between and after those events* because that is not the narrative you want to see in the story.


No, I didn't. What I did was stating that his feelings were not clear at all.
Moreover, I got especially interested in the bold part. What do you mean exactly? The GF comment? 




Seto Kaiba said:


> He doesn't hate her.
> 
> Worse yet, he doesn't give a shit about her. Yet here you are unsurprisingly making excuses for his abhorrence.


He rushes to her rescue when her life is in danger. Twice. He really doesn't give a shit about her, right.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Once he did it. Afterward, *he was going to let her fry with the alliance, and did not care at all when Madara had her at his mercy. *


Wait, what? He did not care when Madara had her at his mercy? Actually, he was the first to act. 
This part is ridiculous, really.


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## Arya Stark (Jun 9, 2014)

Griever said:


> That shyness will always be a part of her nature. And as i've said, what about on the day to day basis. Will Hinata be able to call Naruto out on the stupid shit he does and says?, will she be able to make the decisions he can't; Sakura gets shit for her actions in the Iron land (or whatever) but i give her props, she at least was willing to take action despite herself.



Again shyness =/= submissive. My father is a very shy person but I've never seen him bow down anyone. And my mother is the complete opposite of shy compared to my dad. (in fact she's as scary as Kushina)  They've been married for 20 years now. 

Even back in day, during her confession, Hinata didn't listen to anyone and did her own thing. She's not submissive. She's quiet. That's insult to quiet and reserved people.

The point of 437, 615 is that Hinata has a very strong will and can make right decisions in very harsh times. 

You don't have to punch someone for that.


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## Sete (Jun 9, 2014)

Calling someone illiterate for interpreting strongly implied events hardly makes you right.
Also the quality of the writing is beyond me because im illiterate. And please do forgive any spelling errors its my dog typing and its a bit hard for him to use a mobile without opposite thumbs.
Returning to the matter at hand, I referred the poor writing as an excuse people will use when something they dont like happens. We had a very good example of that this week. I hope in the end neither of us go that way right?
And denying those said heavily implied events does not help for someone reading compreension of the manga.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Vishka said:


> Well, _any _character has his or her time to shine and then inevitably goes in the background, and even Naruto has these rare moments. Naruto is a big part of her character development, indeed, but if her time to shine was supposed to be taken as a rare moment of her showing her strength or being in the spotlight, her feelings for him shouldn't have been emphasized that much.



They are the only thing that really matter about her though, being a sattelite character it is defined by how she relates to another more important character.



> I see your point, you think that she only had those moments and that's all, but what I'm saying (again), that it was Kishi's intent to stress her affection. You say, she has very little to her character outside of Naruto, but that could be easily changed by Kishi himself, which would allow him to make her have moments to shine, that wouldn't be related to Naruto in any way. Yet he didn't do that.



I don't see that as indicative of anything in and of itself other than the fact that Hinata is one-dimensional. You see characters like her in fiction all the time, and they do not always get their feelings reciprocated. Hinata is simply an example of a larger archetype of characters that you find in just about any other series. 



> Then the same thing can be applied to Naruto as well, even if he is the main character of the series.



*That's what I stated.*



> Why don't you consider the fact that his interest in Sakura could be some kind of dynamics between him and Sakura, and not a serious crush or even love? Just like you said, neither case have to be reciprocated, including Naruto's feelings.



Jeez, is a SasuSaku fan going to ask this? 

Um, like I said before...just because Naruto loves Sakura or whomever else loves who does not mean resolution to those feelings. So why are you asking me this when I was the one who pointed it out to you to begin with?



> Excuse me, _what kind of interest_ did he express? _Serious_ interest in her becoming his girlfriend? Or was he planning to confess to her after bringing Sasuke back, just like he promised to her? He knew she loved the other person and even if he did bring Sasuke back, I doubt he would confess.



If he says he's gonna do something, he more often than not does it when those conditions are met. I haven't a reason to believe, that Naruto whom is very clearly sure of how he feels about others and to his credit at least tries to understand them would be any different in this case. I don't think it necessarily means anything if I have to point it out, except that like everyone else in this regard he has been static. 



> He would like her _attention_, because the very idea of Sakura falling out of love with Sasuke and switching to him seems false to him. He felt unworthy because he could not keep his promise to her, but she came there to free him from it, yet he could not believe this sudden change in her feelings. This is not about him being unworthy, it's about him accepting the fact that she simply doesn't love him.



He couldn't believe it because he understands her feelings, having those same for her. He understands specifically as well what Sasuke means to them as a collective, and most importantly, he knows his teammates well enough to tell when something isn't right. He's always known that she loved him, but that has never deterred him. You've given no reason why it would now. Especially when the arc seemed to pretty much establish the dynamics have largely remained the same in this regard.



> No, I didn't. What I did was stating that his feelings were not clear at all. Moreover, I got especially interested in the bold part. What do you mean exactly? The GF comment?



Any subjective interpretations NaruSaku fans have presented in contrast to your own. Both of you have taken events in the midst of this story as absolute truth to your claims. I really don't see the difference between the two, one reason I don't get bothered when the topic is just the back-and-forth. However...if you try to wedge SasuSaku in it, of which has a number of flaws and clear negative development in contrast to the two I will naturally comment on that. 



> He rushes to her rescue when her life is in danger. Twice. He really doesn't give a shit about her, right.



No he doesn't. He's made that abundantly clear. This is what I mean you just focus on his acts of decency, but you completely ignore his acts of inhumane cruelty or dismissive attitude because it compromises the budding romantic interest you want him to have. Did you forget that he was going to leave her to die after he had saved her from the Juubi clone? Did you forget the "false smile" she had? Or the fact that she lamented of his apathy in their fight with Madara? I don't think you did, I just think you ignore it. 



> Wait, what? He did not care when Madara had her at his mercy? Actually, he was the first to act.



He didn't care, she lamented as much and he made no indication of worry. Neither does his behavior after the fact indicate that he holds her as a person of relevant value. _Because he doesn't._



> This part is ridiculous, really.



I don't see how hard it is to get. It's not like it's the worst he's done to this girl.


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## Sete (Jun 9, 2014)

Seto please answer me this. Whats the interpretation you have about Naruto and Hinata interactions?
I really want to know your point of view concerning those events. Tell me your honest unbiased interpretation.


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## Scila9 (Jun 9, 2014)

I agree with anyone who says Hinata's dream has no effect on the likelihood of NaruHina happening or not happening. It's like saying Lee's dream has an effect on the likelihood of LeeSaku happening or not happening. Nonsense.



BatoKusanagi said:


> My question from some pages back wasn't answered (no surprises there). I'll throw in another one: *can someone explain to me how Naruto holding the hand of the girl who just weeks ago confessed her love for him not romantic?* I mean, once upon a time a very preponderant argument was "lol Naruto doesn't know how Hinata feels", "naruHINA" and other crap, so NH moments were just brushed off as one-sided and therefore irrelevant. Now that he does know how she feels, how is his very much positive response to her (reflected on Hinata's increasing confidence about her chances of being with him, which approach certainty at this point) means only "camaraderie" or "Naruto would do that for any of his friends"? Help would be much appreciated.



Don't know if your question got answered by someone else, but I'll tell you what I think.

Imo that was by far the greatest NH moment we've gotten yet. It's the biggest reason why I prefer NaruHina most of the time over NaruSaku.

I'm in the middle about it, between people who believe it was romantic and people who think it was "just to transfer chakra" It was more than transferring chakra to me. It was also a gesture Naruto gave to comfort Hinata while simultaneously showing her how grateful he was to her (along with his words).

It was a big moment for Hinata, Naruto, and the plot in general. 

It had a lot more to do with Neji's death then some portray it to though. This is shown in the cover as well. I don't really understand why people like to show the cover like it's proof that Kishi intends for NH to happen when the cover makes it look even more like a gesture of comfort than the manga does. Instead of Naruto's encouraging smile and Hinata's determined face, the cover has them both looking sadder (cuz of Neji's death) and it just seems even less romantic then the manga did to me. Which wasn't at all really.

I do want to say that I don't think it was Hinata alone that snapped Naruto out of it. Kurama did too. Even after Hinata's speech Kurama had to remind Naruto of everyone else who's died for him before Naruto fully came back to himself. So I don't think "without Hinata Naruto would have been lost" or something like that. Hinata was the one to initiate it though and, like Naruto says, it's thanks to her being by his side that he was able to jump back up to fight so quickly.

That said I don't think that Naruto would have taken Obito's hand either way. That might just be me not being able to imagine Naruto giving up, but yeah. I think Hinata sped up Naruto's recovery, but I doubt that Naruto wouldn't have recovered without her. Kinda like how Shikamaru and Iruka helped Naruto through Jiraiya's death. He would have eventually anyway, but friends are there to help him get through it easier/faster/however you want to say it.

As for doing the same for any of his friends... well, it'd be really friggin hilarious if it were Shikamaru  or any of the guys (:rofl Kiba!) but I could see him doing it with any of the girls if they did what Hinata did for him and if they had the same connection with Neji that she did. Course, they don't, so I can't _really_ imagine it.

I don't see how the meaning behind treating Hinata kindly and as someone important to him changes after knowing her feelings for him (I'm not one who believes he was ever indifferent to her. Not after the Chunin Exams anyway) Treating her the same just makes him an awesome person.

Hinata's feeling more and more certain that Naruto and her will be together? Idk about certainty, but it's clear she wants to be with him. What _I'm_ certain of is that Hinata, Shikamaru, and everyone and their mothers want to work hard to stay by Naruto's side. Kishi would indeed be trolling Hinata's feelings if she doesn't get with him romantically, but seeing as it's Hinata I don't think it'd be the end of her world. She's strong and someone I feel would ultimately be happy as long as Naruto's happy. I think this is one thing among many that she and Naruto have in common.

So no, I don't think it was Naruto showing romantic interest in Hinata. For me, something like that would be... well, like telling his deceased father Hinata's sorta his girlfriend.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 9, 2014)

Sete said:


> Seto please answer me this. Whats the interpretation you have about Naruto and Hinata interactions?
> I really want to know your point of view concerning those events. Tell me your honest unbiased interpretation.



Well if you've been keeping up, you'll see I had answered this already.


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## Kage (Jun 9, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Kishi would indeed be trolling Hinata's feelings if she doesn't get with him romantically, *but seeing as it's Hinata I don't think it'd be the end of her world.* She's strong and someone I feel would ultimately be happy as long as Naruto's happy. I think this is one thing among many that she and Naruto have in common.



This is the most credit I've read someone give Hinata who is not opposed to NH in this thread.

For all the complaining people will do when she's called a satellite character and all the depth they insist she has, the latter is always contradicted by claims her development would be all in vain if she doesn't end up with Naruto. If she has all this supposed depth, if there's so much more to her character than just her love for Naruto than yes, she should be able to move on.

Just like it wouldn't be the end of Naruto's world if he didn't end up with Sakura because he has a life outside of his interest in her. Some might consider him multifaceted! That's crazy! who could take his feelings seriously when he's not devoting his life to romance? _Unless_ he's being amicable but still not smitten to someone who's in love with him because there would be no reason to be so nice otherwise. Right? Right.


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## SoulFire (Jun 9, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Don't you think that if Naruto's feelings were just a crush, Sakura would be aware of that?



I believe that Sakura knew that Naruto had a crush on her all the way back in part one--he certainly never made a secret of it.  Her distress is from being guilt tripped by Sai into believing that Naruto's feelings were deeper.



> This doesn't look the face of someone that is realizing how much of a crush Naruto has on her. It's pretty evident that she knows he's deeply in love with her.



It is pretty evident that Sai succeeded in convincing her that Naruto's feelings were deeper than his obvious tween crush and that the Poal had made her a huge and painful burden to him, akin to a curse seal. Is it any wonder that she was weeping? 



> Sakura still wants to atone for saddling him with the burden of the promise even when he stated that "It's not just about the promise" (This is the correct one) or "It's not about that promise". The narrative doesn't support the notion that Sai was wrong about Naruto being in love with Sakura. There's a lot more to his feelings than what meets your eyes.



Naruto sets Sakura straight by saying "anyway, it doesn't matter...even if there's no promise between us anymore." This pretty much tells her (and the reader) that it's not about that promise, because that promise no longer matters. Naruto's own desire to save Sasuke was always the true impetus that spurred him on. I don't see this as support for the notion that Sai was correct in his assessment of Naruto's feelings regarding both Sakura and that promise.



> If you still do not acknowledge that he's in love with Sakura, then I really don't know what else to tell you. I've tried everything to get people to see things the way it should be when it comes to his feelings.



Oh, I acknowledge that Naruto loves Sakura: I just don't believe that he loves her romantically.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 9, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I believe that Sakura knew that Naruto had a crush on her all the way back in part one--he certainly never made a secret of it.  Her distress is from being guilt tripped by Sai into believing that Naruto's feelings were deeper.



Wait a minute, you ACTUALLY think that SAI of all people, actually tricked Sakura into believing that Naruto's feelings for her are an actual misrepresentation and "guilt trip" from his part? Do you have any idea how utterly batshit insane and fucking absurd that sounds? 

Sai. The emotionless asshole consciously and willingly tricked Sakura into falsely believing Naruto loves her romantically.


I'm at a loss for for words.


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## Revolution (Jun 10, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Wait a minute, you ACTUALLY think that SAI of all people, actually tricked Sakura into believing that Naruto's feelings for her are an actual misrepresentation and "guilt trip" from his part? Do you have any idea how utterly batshit insane and fucking absurd that sounds?
> 
> Sai. The emotionless asshole consciously and willingly tricked Sakura into falsely believing Naruto loves her romantically.
> 
> ...



are you saying Naruto DOESN'T love her romantically?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto sets Sakura straight by saying "anyway, it doesn't matter...even if there's no promise between us anymore." *This pretty much tells her (and the reader) that it's not about that promise, because that promise no longer matters. Naruto's own desire to save Sasuke was always the true impetus that spurred him on*. I don't see this as support for the notion that Sai was correct in his assessment of Naruto's feelings regarding both Sakura and that promise.



Sorry but, how the hell did you come to that conclusion? He stated that it wasn't just about the promise, so that means that the promise and his own desire to save Sasuke was what spurred him. Obviously, if he no longer feels the need to act because of the promise, then naturally he will save Sasuke only for his own sake. Sakura forced him to forget about the promise, now he's only saving Sasuke for his own sake, because Sakura doesn't want him to save Sasuke for her.


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## Sete (Jun 10, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well if you've been keeping up, you'll see I had answered this already.



I'll have a look when I have time.


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## Revolution (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you ever feel like Neji's death and Karin's character ruining is cheap writing excuse for NaruHina and SasuSaku?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Nope. Naruto was always acting first and foremost to save Sasuke for his own sake: He was already preparing to start out on the retrieval mission when Sakura ran up with her teary request. He reassured her with his promise to bring Sasuke back to them both. In the greater scheme of things, the PoaL was always secondary to Naruto's own personal quest.


Wrong. 

The PoaLt is treated in the same level as his desire to save Sasuke for his own sake. It was stated by Shizune that he also wanted to save him for his own sake, and Sai said that he's already known this, meaning that Sai also took into account Naruto's own bond with Sasuke when he made his assumption about him being in love with Sakura.

Also, right before Sasuke left the village he had promised Sakura that Sasuke wouldn't submit to Orochimaru and his henchmen. He's shown to be in turmoil over that promise not going his way even before Sakura appeared, so you can't really say that he was acting to save Sasuke only for himself.


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## Corvida (Jun 10, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong.
> ...


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## SoulFire (Jun 10, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> The PoaLt is treated in the same level as his desire to save Sasuke for his own sake. It was stated by Shizune that he also wanted to save him for his own sake, and Sai said that he's already known this, meaning that Sai also took into account Naruto's own bond with Sasuke when he made his assumption about him being in love with Sakura.
> 
> Also, right before Sasuke left the village he had promised Sakura that Sasuke wouldn't submit to Orochimaru and his henchmen. He's shown to be in turmoil over that promise not going his way even before Sakura appeared, so you can't really say that he was acting to save Sasuke only for himself.


Sai may have considered that Naruto wanted to save Sasuke for his own sake, but Sai also appears to have put the PoaL ahead of Naruto's personal goal in importance. Which it was not. 

When Naruto thinks back on his assurance to Sakura that Sasuke would never go to Orochimaru, his disappointment is with _Sasuke_, whose actions proved his words to Sakura wrong. That made Naruto feel like he had mistakenly built up Sakura's hopes. 

Naruto no doubt wanted to bring Sasuke back for _both_ his and Sakura's sakes, but his promise to Sakura was never that much of a heartwrenching angstfest because his own personal determination to save his team mate was always paramount.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Sai may have considered that Naruto wanted to save Sasuke for his own sake, but Sai also appears to have put the PoaL ahead of Naruto's personal goal in importance. Which it was not.



He never actually put it ahead of his own personal goal, he just noticed that he was being burdened by the promise when he decided to leave her out of the situation and let himself get beat up by Karui. That's why he felt the need to be a good friend to Naruto by letting everyone, especially Sakura, know to not rely on him too much. 



> When Naruto thinks back on his assurance to Sakura that Sasuke would never go to Orochimaru, his disappointment is with _Sasuke_, whose actions proved his words to Sakura wrong. That made Naruto feel like he had mistakenly built up Sakura's hopes.


I guess you are right, but if he's been shown to be considering her worry for Sasuke , I don't know why you would assume he was preparing to save Sasuke only for his own sake. In fact, his motivations weren't even made clear until the time before and during his fight with Sasuke at the Vote. 



> Naruto do doubt wanted to bring Sasuke back for _both_ his and Sakura's sakes, but his promise to Sakura was never that much of a heartwrenching angstfest because his own personal determination to save his team mate was always paramount.


Too bad that it actually was.


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## SoulFire (Jun 10, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> He never actually put it ahead of his own personal goal, he just noticed that he was being burdened by the promise when he decided to leave her out of the situation and let himself get beat up by Karui. That's why he felt the need to be a good friend to Naruto by letting everyone, especially Sakura, know to not rely on him too much.


Naruto allowed himself to be beaten by Karui because he did not want to betray Sasuke. Sai had no reason to equate that with the burden of some past promise (of which he had no knowledge or understanding).



> I guess you are right, but if he's been shown to be considering her worry for Sasuke , I don't know why you would assume he was preparing to save Sasuke only for his own sake. In fact, his motivations weren't even made clear until the time before and during his fight with Sasuke at the Vote.


As I said, Naruto wanted to save Sasuke for both he and Sakura--and for Team 7--but Naruto had always felt a special bond with Sasuke that was the primary reason for his desire to go after him. I found his motivations quite obvious.



> Too bad that it actually was.



I guess as you see it, but I've never felt that lovelorn angst from Naruto--and the closest he came was Sai's flashback, which struck me as more wistful than anguished.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto allowed himself to be beaten by Karui because he did not want to betray Sasuke. Sai had no reason to equate that with the burden of some past promise (of which he had no knowledge or understanding).


Yes he did, because in that flashback Naruto stated that he couldn't confess because he couldn't keep his promise. If he couldn't confess because of the promise, then obviously it was a burden to him then.



He thinks back to her tearful request to save Sasuke... clearly it was a burden to him here too. 



> As I said, Naruto wanted to save Sasuke for both he and Sakura--and for Team 7--but Naruto had always felt a special bond with Sasuke that was the primary reason for his desire to go after him. I found his motivations quite obvious.



You could say that it is his primary reason... as it should be, but his secondary reason which is the PoaLt has to do with his love for Sakura.



> I guess as you see it, but I've never felt that lovelorn angst from Naruto--and the closest he came was Sai's flashback, which struck me as more wistful than anguished.



How can he be feeling wistful there?


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## SoulFire (Jun 10, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Yes he did, because in that flashback Naruto stated that he couldn't confess because he couldn't keep his promise. If he couldn't confess because of the promise, then obviously it was a burden to him then.


I still don't get the connection Sai would make between Naruto taking a beating rather than betraying Sasuke to the Cloud and his whole inability to state his feelings to Sakura. They are two separate instances as far as the observing Sai is concerned.


> He thinks back to her tearful request to save Sasuke... clearly it was a burden to him here too.



He also thinks of his comrades standing up for Sasuke because he is one of the Leaf shinobi. To save Sasuke was not a burden: It was a duty, to the Konoha way, to Sakura and to Sasuke, himself.




> You could say that it is his primary reason... as it should be, but his secondary reason which is the PoaLt has to do with his love for Sakura.



The PoaL (PoaLT for some reason reminds me of a molting chicken ) was important to Naruto because it brought Sakura into his quest for Sasuke. Their shared love for their partner had a great deal to do with it. That was why Naruto was so upset when Sakura denounced Sasuke in Iron Country. That shattered Naruto's Team 7 dream (as shown in his mind) and sent him spinning into a brief depression.  



> How can he be feeling wistful there?



Wistful: Wishful yearning. At that point Naruto still harbored a lingering crush for Sakura, even though he had fully accepted her feelings for Sasuke. But he was hardly torn up about it.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 10, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I still don't get the connection Sai would make between Naruto taking a beating rather than betraying Sasuke to the Cloud and his whole inability to state his feelings to Sakura. They are two separate instances as far as the observing Sai is concerned.


But that's exactly the connection he made when observing Naruto. 



> He also thinks of his comrades standing up for Sasuke because he is one of the Leaf shinobi. To save Sasuke was not a burden: It was a duty, to the Konoha way, to Sakura and to Sasuke, himself.



Everything other than Sakura's tearful request was a duty. That was the only burden. 



> The PoaL (PoaLT for some reason reminds me of a molting chicken ) was important to Naruto because it brought Sakura into his quest for Sasuke. Their shared love for their partner had a great deal to do with it. That was why Naruto was so upset when Sakura denounced Sasuke in Iron Country. That shattered Naruto's Team 7 dream (as shown in his mind) and sent him spinning into a brief depression.



Nope. There was no indication that Naruto had any intention on bringing Sakura into his quest to save Sasuke until after he failed his mission, and even after that her part in his saving had absolutely nothing to do with the promise. Sakura has always wanted to help him with his quest to save Sasuke, but during the start of that Kage Summit arc he leaves her out of it because he wants to place the burden only on himself because of the promise. 



> Wistful: Wishful yearning. At that point Naruto still harbored a lingering crush for Sakura, even though he had fully accepted her feelings for Sasuke. But he was hardly torn up about it.


And then a million years later... he shows his continued interest in Sakura with his girlfriend comment. How can you be so sure that his feelings are just a crush, let alone not even romantic anymore? Sorry, but the interpretation that he was being wistful rather than anguished is incredibly stupid.


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## SoulFire (Jun 11, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> But that's exactly the connection he made when observing Naruto.



That's not the connection I noticed when Sai was observing Naruto getting the tar beaten out of him. Sai was actually thinking back on Naruto's past statements as to why he continued to pursue Sasuke in an attempt to understand just why Naruto would protect someone who did nothing but hurt him. There was no connection to Sakura (or a promise that Sai knew nothing about) whatsoever.





> Everything other than Sakura's tearful request was a duty. That was the only burden.



I very much doubt that Naruto has ever considered his pledge to be a burden--especially since he was already determined to go after Sasuke, anyway. He has always felt it his personal duty to himself, to Sakura and to Sasuke most of all.



> Nope. There was no indication that Naruto had any intention on bringing Sakura into his quest to save Sasuke until after he failed his mission, and even after that her part in his saving had absolutely nothing to do with the promise. Sakura has always wanted to help him with his quest to save Sasuke, but during the start of that Kage Summit arc he leaves her out of it because he wants to place the burden only on himself because of the promise.



The Sasuke retrieval team was already established and ready to move out when Sakura made her plea. Naruto and Sakura did not team up in the effort to save Sasuke until the second retrieval arc, wherein Team 7 was re-imagined and they bonded over their shared love for and desire to bring back their 'lost' team mate. Sakura's determination to grow stronger and join Naruto in that quest meant a lot to him, which is why he was so happy about how they were getting closer to Sasuke together and why he was so devastated when Sakura delivered that confession.

Naruto has always had a tendency to go it alone--perhaps because that was what he had to do to survive in the beginning. I don't think he intentionally left Sakura out because of some desire to 'bear the burden' all on his own. It was just his usual way of doing things, and something that he is just now beginning to overcome.



> And then a million years later... he shows his continued interest in Sakura with his girlfriend comment. How can you be so sure that his feelings are just a crush, let alone not even romantic anymore? Sorry, but the interpretation that he was being wistful rather than anguished is incredibly stupid.



Let's be respectful of one another, shall we?   You know darned well that I give no serious weight to the gf panels. Because I feel none of the angst or longing that you apparently do in Naruto's demeanor, it is very easy for me to view his feelings as a faded crush and one that he was on the verge of letting go at the time of what I see as his wistful answer to Sai's question.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 11, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> That's not the connection I noticed when Sai was observing Naruto getting the tar beaten out of him. Sai was actually thinking back on Naruto's past statements as to why he continued to pursue Sasuke in an attempt to understand just why Naruto would protect someone who did nothing but hurt him. There was no connection to Sakura (or a promise that Sai knew nothing about) whatsoever.



He made the connection when he realized that there was more to it than just his own bond with Sasuke, in chapter 457. 



> I very much doubt that Naruto has ever considered his pledge to be a burden--especially since he was already determined to go after Sasuke, anyway. He has always felt it his personal duty to himself, to Sakura and to Sasuke most of all.



I don't see the point in seeing his pledge as a duty when the manga already treats it as burden. It was even stated by Sai, after all of these events that you think could possibly make it not a burden, that Sakura wanted to atone for placing the burden of the promise on Naruto. Even after Naruto said that he now wants to save Sasuke for his own sake, and while Sai was there watching everything that happened. He never took back his own assumptions about Naruto being in love with Sakura and the promise being like a curse, and Sakura never once doubted what Sai had told her.  



> The Sasuke retrieval team was already established and ready to move out when Sakura made her plea. Naruto and Sakura did not team up in the effort to save Sasuke until the second retrieval arc, wherein Team 7 was re-imagined and they bonded over their shared love for and desire to bring back their 'lost' team mate. Sakura's determination to grow stronger and join Naruto in that quest meant a lot to him, which is why he was so happy about how they were getting closer to Sasuke together and why he was so devastated when Sakura delivered that confession.
> 
> Naruto has always had a tendency to go it alone--perhaps because that was what he had to do to survive in the beginning. I don't think he intentionally left Sakura out because of some desire to 'bear the burden' all on his own. It was just his usual way of doing things, and something that he is just now beginning to overcome.



Even though Sakura and Naruto had bonded over their shared desire to get back Sasuke, and Sakura was more than willing to help him on his quest to save Sasuke, he was more inclined to try and save Sasuke by himself because of the promise. It was clear, at least to Sai, that he wanted to bear the burden alone when he decided to not let Sakura heal him so she wouldn't have to worry him. He even went all the way to the Iron Country without her even though he could have easily taken her with him. It can't be just a tedency, because just for that tedency he wouldn't bring the one he had bonded with on his quest to save Sasuke on his journey?



> Let's be respectful of one another, shall we?   You know darned well that I give no serious weight to the gf panels. Because I feel none of the angst or longing that you apparently do in Naruto's demeanor, it is very easy for me to view his feelings as a faded crush and one that he was on the verge of letting go at the time of what I see as his wistful answer to Sai's question.



Why wouldn't you? If he is saying "Yeah! Sorta, something like that" than obviously his interest in her is still as strong as ever. It's not even like there was any indication that he lost interest in Sakura before that. 

I don't get the view of it being wistful. I think you're only saying that because it fits your own view of the story where Naruto eventually lets go of Sakura for Hinata.


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## SoulFire (Jun 12, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> He made the connection when he realized that there was more to it than just his own bond with Sasuke, in chapter 457.


Just because Sai reaches this conclusion does not make it true.



> I don't see the point in seeing his pledge as a duty when the manga already treats it as burden. It was even stated by Sai, after all of these events that you think could possibly make it not a burden, that Sakura wanted to atone for placing the burden of the promise on Naruto. Even after Naruto said that he now wants to save Sasuke for his own sake, and while Sai was there watching everything that happened. He never took back his own assumptions about Naruto being in love with Sakura and the promise being like a curse, and Sakura never once doubted what Sai had told her.



The only one treating Naruto's pledge as a 'burden' is Sai, and eventually Sakura after Sai convinces her that it is one. Naruto has never treated it as such, even though he felt guilty and inadequate (he had a very poor view of his own abilities back at the time of that flashback) at being unable to fulfill it. The credibility of Sai's assumptions were not important to the confession scene and its aftermath, and I think Naruto's reaction pretty much clued Sakura in on the fact that the PoaL wasn't the great burden that Sai had led her believe.



> Even though Sakura and Naruto had bonded over their shared desire to get back Sasuke, and Sakura was more than willing to help him on his quest to save Sasuke, he was more inclined to try and save Sasuke by himself because of the promise. It was clear, at least to Sai, that he wanted to bear the burden alone when he decided to not let Sakura heal him so she wouldn't have to worry him. He even went all the way to the Iron Country without her even though he could have easily taken her with him. It can't be just a tedency, because just for that tedency he wouldn't bring the one he had bonded with on his quest to save Sasuke on his journey?



 Sai is anything but clear on relationships, so what he assumes  is not necessarily correct. It could be that Naruto did not want Sakura to heal him because she may have reacted with upset at what he had done (and added her own punch). Naruto is more inclined to attempt to save Sasuke on his own because that is his nature. Even though he was delighted to have Sakura on board in his quest, he considers it, first and foremost, _his_ duty.



> Why wouldn't you? If he is saying "Yeah! Sorta, something like that" than obviously his interest in her is still as strong as ever. It's not even like there was any indication that he lost interest in Sakura before that.


I've said all I'm going to say regarding those joke panels. I don't consider them significant or particularly relevant: They were there for a nostalgic lead into the return of Team 7. Period.



> I don't get the view of it being wistful. I think you're only saying that because it fits your own view of the story where Naruto eventually lets go of Sakura for Hinata.


I don't see the angst. Which would fit your own view of the story. It's all in different interpretations, after all.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 12, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> The only one treating Naruto's pledge as a 'burden' is Sai, and eventually Sakura after Sai convinces her that it is one. Naruto has never treated it as such, even though he felt guilty and inadequate (he had a very poor view of his own abilities back at the time of that flashback) at being unable to fulfill it. The credibility of Sai's assumptions were not important to the confession scene and its aftermath, and I think Naruto's reaction pretty much clued Sakura in on the fact that the PoaL wasn't the great burden that Sai had led her believe.



Your evidence of Naruto not treating the promise as a burden is incredibly shallow. Naruto's reaction didn't have anything to do with the matter of whether or not it was a burden or not. It's a huge leap of logic to assume that it wasn't a burden based on what you have given me so far. If Naruto didn't treat it as a burden, he would make that clear to Sakura and Sai, but he didn't. Sakura herself realized that it was definitely a burden when Sai told her that Naruto is in love with her. The story supports my belief a lot more than it does yours. 



> Sai is anything but clear on relationships, so what he assumes  is not necessarily correct. It could be that Naruto did not want Sakura to heal him because she may have reacted with upset at what he had done (and added her own punch). Naruto is more inclined to attempt to save Sasuke on his own because that is his nature. Even though he was delighted to have Sakura on board in his quest, he considers it, first and foremost, _his_ duty.



The funny thing about Sai is that even though people believe that he is a social retard the story treats his assumptions as credible as the words of a gospel. The characters in the story believe everything that he says mostly because they themselves feel that what he says is logical, if they didn't the social retard would be put in his place. 

It's really sad how you think Naruto would be wary of Sakura's punches even though she is the only one that could heal him. Because her initial reaction means he should avoid a good medic... 



> I've said all I'm going to say regarding those joke panels. I don't consider them significant or particularly relevant: *They were there for a nostalgic lead into the return of Team 7*. Period.



So basically, you want to justify ignoring those panels because it doesn't fit your own narrative... and for a really stupid reason too. A nostalgic lead... really?


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## BeBreezy (Jun 12, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> Do you ever feel like Neji's death and Karin's character ruining is cheap writing excuse for NaruHina and SasuSaku?




This is why, in my opinion, it is better to discuss pairings mostly based on the two characters being paired, rather than involving too many third parties, who really have nothing to do with that pairing. We should discuss the pairing based on its own merit, and not too much on whether the actions or words of a lateral character improve or diminish a pairing's chances of canonization.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 12, 2014)

BeBreezy said:


> This is why, in my opinion, it is better to discuss pairings mostly based on the two characters being paired, rather than involving too many third parties, who really have nothing to do with that pairing. We should discuss the pairing based on its own merit, and not too much on whether the actions or words of a lateral character improve or diminish a pairing's chances of canonization.



It doesn't matter how you spin it, based on "merit" SS is by far the most vile and disgusting of the three being discussed here. 

I could see why someone could ship NH (Hell, I ship SH as my OTP so I can't fault them too hard for it), but SS is just reprehensible in every sense of the term. 

There's literally not a single logical argument of why both Sasuke and Sakura _should_ be in a romantic relationship, let alone could be. If this was still part 1, then yeah, you had an argument. But after Sasuke severed his bonds, any hope for a relationship that wouldn't defy logic, reason, and common fucking sense went out the window.


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## SoulFire (Jun 12, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Your evidence of Naruto not treating the promise as a burden is incredibly shallow. Naruto's reaction didn't have anything to do with the matter of whether or not it was a burden or not. It's a huge leap of logic to assume that it wasn't a burden based on what you have given me so far. If Naruto didn't treat it as a burden, he would make that clear to Sakura and Sai, but he didn't. Sakura herself realized that it was definitely a burden when Sai told her that Naruto is in love with her. The story supports my belief a lot more than it does yours.



The manga has given me nothing that indicates that Naruto felt burdened by the PoaL. At most he mentally beat up on himself for being too weak to accomplish what he set out to do (with or without the PoaL), which was to bring Sasuke back. Sai may have convinced Sakura that her request was a burden as horrible as the curse seal on his tongue, but Naruto was never shown to treat it as such.



> The funny thing about Sai is that even though people believe that he is a social retard the story treats his assumptions as credible as the words of a gospel. The characters in the story believe everything that he says mostly because they themselves feel that what he says is logical, if they didn't the social retard would be put in his place.



Just because Sai's simple, straightforward way of speaking can be convincing doesn't necessarily make his words true. The outcome of his conversation with Sakura is ample proof.



> It's really sad how you think Naruto would be wary of Sakura's punches even though she is the only one that could heal him. Because her initial reaction means he should avoid a good medic...



Naruto didn't need a medic and said as much. He was fully healed by the time the crew headed to Iron country made it to that Inn. You don't think Naruto is wary of Sakura's punches? Didn't he recently worry about being turned int a stain? Yeah, I know. Joke.   Main reason why Naruto didn't include Sakura on the trip: His agenda in going to Iron Country was to intercept the Raikage and not clearly tied to their shared quest to save Sasuke. On top of that, it was a covert mission as Naruto was supposed to stay in Konoha. The fewer involved the better.



> So basically, you want to justify ignoring those panels because it doesn't fit your own narrative... and for a really stupid reason too. A nostalgic lead... really?



Just as you justify taking those panels as dead serious in order to fit your narrative. We each have a different point of view. And yes, that entire page was a nostalgic lead in resurrecting the antics and character interactions from part one in preparation for the Team 7 reunion to come.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 12, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> The manga has given me nothing that indicates that Naruto felt burdened by the PoaL. At most he mentally beat up on himself for being too weak to accomplish what he set out to do (with or without the PoaL), which was to bring Sasuke back. Sai may have convinced Sakura that her request was a burden as horrible as the curse seal on his tongue, but Naruto was never shown to treat it as such.



It's a burden simply because he didn't feel worthy enough to confess if he didn't keep his promise. In that flashback, it was a burden, and logically it would be the same as in the events of the Kage Summit arc especially when the story points to it being that way. Also, when Sai told Naruto that she wanted to atone for saddling him with the burden, as if his assumptions are treated as completely true by the story. If he was being wistful, the events that happened in the Kage Summit arc would have never happened. 



> Just because Sai's simple, straightforward way of speaking can be convincing doesn't necessarily make his words true. The outcome of his conversation with Sakura is ample proof.



Ample proof? I don't even get this proof you are talking about. Most would assume that it was a burden until Sakura forced him to forget about the promise. If he truly wasn't burdened by it, than Sakura would have gotten the message when he stated that he now wants to save Sasuke for his own sake. 



> Just as you justify taking those panels as dead serious in order to fit your narrative. We each have a different point of view. And yes, that entire page was a nostalgic lead in resurrecting the antics and character interactions from part one in preparation for the Team 7 reunion to come.



Is that your way of ignoring the fact that it was a re-confirmation of Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura? Also the fact that it basically shot down the idea that Naruto's recent interactions with Hinata were romantic. It was all from his own admission too. Even if you think it's a joke... clearly Naruto is not into Hinata.


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## SoulFire (Jun 12, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > It's a burden simply because he didn't feel worthy enough to confess if he didn't keep his promise. In that flashback, it was a burden, and logically it would be the same as in the events of the Kage Summit arc especially when the story points to it being that way. *Also, when Sai told Naruto that she wanted to atone for saddling him with the burden, as if his assumptions are treated as completely true by the story.*
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 13, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Naruto thought himself a failure and would have felt the same were there no promise. He might have felt worthless due to his inability to bring Sasuke back, but those feelings had as much to do with his own personal quest as it did with the PoaL. As I said before, it was an obligation and a duty to himself, Sakura and Sasuke, but I doubt that he ever considered it a burden.
> 
> I'm not understanding the bolded sentence.



If he can't confess because he's feeling unworthy, why the hell would those feelings have anything to do with his own personal quest to save Sasuke? I don't understand your logic at all.  If he feels unworthy, that can only mean that it's a burden that he places on himself due to the guilt of not being able to live up to the promise. There is no duty here, you're just making that stuff up. 



> Imo, the events in Iron country happened because of Sai's assumption of Naruto's feelings.


Which was totally right. All he really wanted to do was be a good friend to Naruto by letting people know of the truth so people don't rely on him too much.  



> Naruto plainly told Sakura that the PoaL was secondary to his own quest for Sasuke and found her reasons for coming all the way after him downright weird. Nothing he said or did indicated that he was suffering from the burden of his promise and he had no trouble dropping it because his own personal (and number one) agenda was already the same.



No, he understood that she was thinking of his feelings when she confessed and told him to forget about the promise, meaning that he was aware that she wanted to lift the burden of the promise from him. His own personal agenda had actually changed after his conversation with Tobi, which is why he would think back to that when Sakura stated that the promise doesn't stand anymore. By the time she arrived, it was already too late to change anything by denouncing the promise. 



> Who's to say that she didn't? (He has _always_ wanted to save Sasuke for his own sake.)


If there was no indication that she did, then it didn't happen. The narrative doesn't support your view of Naruto's feelings at all. That's pretty much what I mean by the bolded sentence. 



> I don't take those panels seriously and neither did Hinata. I do not think they were meant to be anything but funny and they will have no bearing on the future of NH.



A lowly side character with tunnel vision doesn't take them seriously... probably because she wasn't even listening.


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## SoulFire (Jun 13, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> If he can't confess because he's feeling unworthy, why the hell would those feelings have anything to do with his own personal quest to save Sasuke? I don't understand your logic at all.  If he feels unworthy, that can only mean that it's a burden that he places on himself due to the guilt of not being able to live up to the promise. There is no duty here, you're just making that stuff up.



By the time of the Iron Country confession, I no longer consider Naruto's feelings to be at all the same as they were in Sai's memory (which I see as wistful but accepting and you see as angsty and painful). I consider that he had completely moved on by Sakura's confession and was not at all troubled by dropping the PoaL--in fact, he was most troubled by Sakura turning her back on Sasuke and their shared dream of Team 7 reunited. Duty trumps burden.



> Which was totally right. All he really wanted to do was be a good friend to Naruto by letting people know of the truth so people don't rely on him too much.



Yes, Sai had good intentions, but he went about things in entirely the wrong way, hurting Sakura and causing the entire Iron Country mess of a confession by acting on his own unconfirmed assumptions.



> No, he understood that she was thinking of his feelings when she confessed and told him to forget about the promise, meaning that he was aware that she wanted to lift the burden of the promise from him. His own personal agenda had actually changed after his conversation with Tobi, which is why he would think back to that when Sakura stated that the promise doesn't stand anymore. By the time she arrived, it was already too late to change anything by denouncing the promise.



Naruto was defending Sasuke at that moment, trying to get Sakura to better understand Sasuke's motives (and his own) by informing her of the new information he had gotten from Tobi. Which got nowhere because Kakashi shut him down.



> If there was no indication that she did, then it didn't happen. The narrative doesn't support your view of Naruto's feelings at all. That's pretty much what I mean by the bolded sentence.



I think that Naruto made it quite clear to Sakura that he was not burdened by the PoaL and had no problem at all in dropping it. It was over and done and he was still intent on saving Sasuke. 



> A lowly side character with tunnel vision doesn't take them seriously... probably because she wasn't even listening.



Well, at least we know what you think of Hinata, eh.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 13, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> By the time of the Iron Country confession, I no longer consider Naruto's feelings to be at all the same as they were in Sai's memory (which I see as wistful but accepting and you see as angsty and painful). I consider that he had completely moved on by Sakura's confession and was not at all troubled by dropping the PoaL--in fact, he was most troubled by Sakura turning her back on Sasuke and their shared dream of Team 7 reunited. Duty trumps burden.



Why should he be troubled by that? The more important thing to him in this case would be her turning her back on Sasuke, calling him a criminal like if he isn't worth saving. That would be more important to him than his own love life at this point. It's pretty evident from the start her confession, when he blushed, that he wanted to believe her but couldn't when he knew she was lying to herself. To say that he had moved on from Sakura because of these circumstances is an exaggeration and you know it. 



> I think that Naruto made it quite clear to Sakura that he was not burdened by the PoaL and had no problem at all in dropping it. It was over and done and he was still intent on saving Sasuke.



If it's Sakura herself telling him to drop it, then I see no reason to use this as evidence that the promise wasn't a burden. You are over reaching way too much.


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## SoulFire (Jun 13, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why should he be troubled by that? The more important thing to him in this case would be her turning her back on Sasuke, calling him a criminal like if he isn't worth saving. That would be more important to him than his own love life at this point. It's pretty evident from the start her confession, when he blushed, that he wanted to believe her but couldn't when he knew she was lying to herself. To say that he had moved on from Sakura because of these circumstances is an exaggeration and you know it.



According to Sai's flashback, that promise was of such importance...and so painful to Naruto: A curse seal on his heart. Yet Naruto lets it go without a single twinge to indicate this to be true. Instead, all of his memories are SasuSaku. 

Possibly Naruto was blushing, but just as possibly, those marks were the affect of the cold on his cheeks, as they are present just moments before Sakura arrived, when Naruto was going into sage mode atop the roof in the falling snow. 



That said, a blush can represent feelings other than love such as shock, anger, surprise, and I'd certainly say that Naruto was shocked and surprised by Sakura's out of the blue professed love.



> If it's Sakura herself telling him to drop it, then I see no reason to use this as evidence that the promise wasn't a burden. You are over reaching way too much.



If  the PoaL was such a huge burden to him, I would expect him to have at least a momentary twinge: Something--anything--to show the reader the important hold it has on his heart. Instead he simply shrugs it off as though it is nothing.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 14, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> According to Sai's flashback, that promise was of such importance...and so painful to Naruto: A curse seal on his heart. Yet Naruto lets it go without a single twinge to indicate this to be true. Instead, all of his memories are SasuSaku.



I wouldn't really count on this to be indicative of Sai's words not being true. His state of mind at the point of her confession was that of being incredibly worried about Sasuke. If he felt relieved about the burden of the promise being lifted from him, he wouldn't really show it considering the fact that saving Sasuke has much more of a priority than his love life.



> Possibly Naruto was blushing, but just as possibly, those marks were the affect of the cold on his cheeks, as they are present just moments before Sakura arrived, when Naruto was going into sage mode atop the roof in the falling snow.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, a blush can represent feelings other than love such as shock, anger, surprise, and I'd certainly say that Naruto was shocked and surprised by Sakura's out of the blue professed love.



He was blushing out of love and surprise. You can't possibly try and make it seem like anything else while thinking rationally. He couldn't believe that the girl he's been in love with for so long would finally say that she loves him, so when he asks her what she just said and she says that she loves him again he was pretty delighted. Take a look at this:


*Spoiler*: __ 








There are no marks on his face the page before.

Now, he's obviously blushing here, unless you think the author would suddenly place these marks here again  



> If  the PoaL was such a huge burden to him, I would expect him to have at least a momentary twinge: Something--anything--to show the reader the important hold it has on his heart. Instead he simply shrugs it off as though it is nothing.



There was nothing in the confession that is indicative of him shrugging it off like nothing unless you are exaggerating.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 14, 2014)

^Basically, they expect very detailed, subtle reactions(different for each of them, of course so you can never really "win") to indicate things we already know are there, logically would be there and there is no indication that they are not there but they will only accept them as valid if their own outlandish specifications are met. They are somehow reading things in there that are not there and logically do not make sense with information that we already know. Only when it comes to NS stuff of course. With NH stuff, they read very deeply into scenes and find things that aren't there, aren't indicated by past interactions/thoughts of the character/s(usually always Naruto in this case) and/or don't make logical sense with the information we already have. 


The whole blushing thing reminds me of the Sakura blush stuff in 632(it was dirt btw). He was blushing, Elicit's panels make that perfectly clear. Blushing doesn't only occur with romantic feelings, so SF's arguments does hold some weight but its kind of weak when we already know Naruto has romantic feelings for her and only the "wishful thinking" interpretation of the Sai flashback with Naruto indirectly saying that he loves Sakura as well as the "wishful thinking" interpretation of their interactions in part 2 can lead to believing that at the time of Sakura's "failfession" he no longer was in love with her.


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## Kage (Jun 14, 2014)

Off-topic but I always thought the frostbite on Naruto's nose was damn adorable  (frostbite itself not so kawaii tho)

I'll also add that Naruto's promise to Sakura is both over and underrated.

Yes it was important to him and yeah it was a burden. When caught in Itachi's genjutsu Sakura pops out of his stomach to scold him for not bringing Sasuke back. If that isn't an example of how he was internalizing it rather than making a show of this burden via melodramatic ANGST than jfc. 

However it should never be argued it was the primary motivating factor for him up until a certain point. His promise to Sakura never once took precedence over his own desire to save Sasuke.


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## Ao Thurston (Jun 14, 2014)

I also blush whenever my mother talks about me in certain ways. Does it mean I'm incestuous?


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## SoulFire (Jun 14, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I wouldn't really count on this to be indicative of Sai's words not being true. His state of mind at the point of her confession was that of being incredibly worried about Sasuke. If he felt relieved about the burden of the promise being lifted from him, he wouldn't really show it considering the fact that saving Sasuke has much more of a priority than his love life.


 
Maybe...then again, maybe not. 



> He was blushing out of love and surprise. You can't possibly try and make it seem like anything else while thinking rationally. He couldn't believe that the girl he's been in love with for so long would finally say that she loves him, so when he asks her what she just said and she says that she loves him again he was pretty delighted.



I see the (confused) surprise, but nothing that really indicates love or romantic feeling. Certainly not delight.



> There are no marks on his face the page before. Now, he's obviously blushing here, unless you think the author would suddenly place these marks here again



Note that I said 'possibly', and also gave other reasons for a blush to appear.



> There was nothing in the confession that is indicative of him shrugging it off like nothing.



Neither is there anything in the confession scene that is indicative that this PoaL has continued to be a huge and painful burden on his heart.



> WolfPrinceKiba said:
> 
> 
> > ^Basically, they expect very detailed, subtle reactions(different for each of them, of course so you can never really "win") to indicate things we already know are there, logically would be there and there is no indication that they are not there but they will only accept them as valid if their own outlandish specifications are met. They are somehow reading things in there that are not there and logically do not make sense with information that we already know. Only when it comes to NS stuff of course. With NH stuff, they read very deeply into scenes and find things that aren't there, aren't indicated by past interactions/thoughts of the character/s(usually always Naruto in this case) and/or don't make logical sense with the information we already have.
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 14, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I see the (confused) surprise, but nothing that really indicates love or romantic feeling. Certainly not delight.


I don't really know what I can tell you if you don't see that he's blushing out of romantic feelings. I mean, that's something that should be incredibly obvious.


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## SoulFire (Jun 14, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I don't really know what I can tell you if you don't see that he's blushing out of romantic feelings. I mean, that's something that should be incredibly obvious.



_Should be_ (if it is indeed supposed to be representative of his romantic feelings, which I doubt), but it isn't. At least not to me.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 14, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> _Should be_ (if it is indeed supposed to be representative of his romantic feelings, which I doubt), but it isn't. At least not to me.



Ok then, please try and differentiate between these two expressions:

1. When Naruto "still had a crush" on Sakura 

*Spoiler*: __ 







2. When Naruto has "no romantic feelings"  for Sakura


How does the second one have no indication of romantic feelings but not the first one?


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 14, 2014)

Maybe because you missed out on half the chapter and only went with 1 panel.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 14, 2014)

Sorry, but no. This is the same guy that would say that Sakura is sorta his girlfriend, after all. Also, if he would blush, than any of his further reactions aren't indicative of a lack of romantic feelings, unless you're thinking irrationally.


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## SoulFire (Jun 14, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Ok then, please try and differentiate between these two expressions:
> 
> 1. When Naruto "still had a crush" on Sakura
> 
> ...



Kishi is often a minimalist when illustrating expressions, so such similarities are not uncommon or surprising. Often the context within the scene helps to define exactly what is being shown. In both of these scenes Naruto is caught off guard and has a surprised expression. 

Whether the blush indicates the same emotions remains quite debatable (Naruto envisioning an old fantasy of Sakura feeding him--again, way back in the storyline--vs Naruto being surprised by a confession of love that he knows darned well isn't true--again, after events have occurred that could very likely have influenced him in moving on romantically).


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## Elicit94 (Jun 15, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Kishi is often a minimalist when illustrating expressions, so such similarities are not uncommon or surprising. Often the context within the scene helps to define exactly what is being shown. In both of these scenes Naruto is caught off guard and has a surprised expression.


The only reason why he would be surprised is because the girl he likes is saying exactly what he would want to hear from her. This is clearly the case because before he blushed he thought he heard her wrong and wanted her to repeat herself. When he blushed he realized that her words were correct, and there's even a "......" that indicates deep thought, so he wasn't really caught off-guard when he blushed.



> Whether the blush indicates the same emotions remains quite debatable (Naruto envisioning an old fantasy of Sakura feeding him--again, way back in the storyline--vs Naruto being surprised by a confession of love that he knows darned well isn't true--again, after events have occurred that could very likely have influenced him in moving on romantically).



What events? Sai's flashback where he's supposely being "wistful" instead of anguished (which is how the story defines it as, and how there's no indication that he's being wistful in his words)? Other than that, there is nothing in the story that can indicate that he doesn't feel the same way as he did during the ramen feeding scene.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 15, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> Maybe because you missed out on half the chapter and only went with 1 panel.



I love how you all ALWAYS miss the context of WHY he rejected her and take it as face value of "Nope! No romantic feelings at all! He friendzoned her!"


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 15, 2014)

And Bankaii, I love how you can't come up with an actual argument, and instead attack the person.
He knew she was lying. And it pissed him off.

Or did we all forget that?


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## Misuzu (Jun 15, 2014)

I was always for Narusaku from the start... but it changed when I saw that Hinata risked her life for him ( pain vs Naruto) and Sakura always thinks about sasuke sasuke.. She dont deserve Naruto , Hinata really loves him I hope so much that they two come together


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## SoulFire (Jun 15, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> The only reason why he would be surprised is because the girl he likes is saying exactly what he would want to hear from her. This is clearly the case because before he blushed he thought he heard her wrong and wanted her to repeat herself. When he blushed he realized that her words were correct, and there's even a "......" that indicates deep thought, so he wasn't really caught off-guard when he blushed. There is nothing in the story that can indicate that he doesn't feel the same way as he did during the ramen feeding scene.



Not necessarily. In both of those scenes Naruto was surprised, yes--but within the timeline of the story for very different reasons. 

As I said, the first example you presented happened way back there closer to that wistful flashback presented by Sai. Naruto had a fantasy of being fed by Sakura from his tween days. Not surprising that her offer excited him at that time (even though he had accepted that her heart belonged to Sasuke).

The Iron Country confrontation is another matter altogether. Naruto asks her to repeat her words because they are totally unexpected and off the wall. Kishi has used those parenthesized series of dots to show thought and Naruto is obviously considering what she says, but he could just as likely be reacting to her rejection of Sasuke, which he knows to be a lie (and could cause him to blush for a different reason). The whole thing made no sense to him and his expression does not really reveal much more than wide eyed surprise.



> What events? Sai's flashback where he's supposedly being "wistful" instead of anguished (which is how the story defines it as, and how there's no indication that he's being wistful in his words)?


The most specific and influential event is pretty obvious, is it not? Naruto has been presented with the knowledge that there exists someone who loves him and has loved him all the way back to when he was a 'dead last' failure and village pariah. Someone willing to sacrifice it all because of that love. How could this not have a big influence on him? 

Yes, I've heard it all...satellite character whose actions are of no import, Naruto never answered because he isn't interested, etc. I don't buy it. Remember when those Shinobi asked for Naruto's autograph? He didn't do it because of his own doubts about just what people really felt about him. If Naruto did not speak with Hinata before he left for Turtle Island (which remains a possibility), it is quite likely that he held back because of that hatred and distrust in his heart that had yet to be expelled at the Waterfall of Truth. Since then Naruto has certainly been giving Hinata much more attention that has encouraged her and has been noted by team mates and family (Neji, of course).

As I read it _Sai_ (and not the story, itself) defines Naruto as anguished in that flashback response, and nowhere else in part two has Naruto shown one anguished or angst filled moment or even expressed further wistful longing in regard to his feelings for Sakura.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 15, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> So now I'm a hive mind 'they', eh?


The way you went about your argument is pretty much exactly how others arguing for SS/NH have done in the past. You are certainly your own person but that particular argument is part of your sides hive mind. Both sides have one and few fall outside the collective.



> Kishi is notorious for being ambiguous in his pairing plans. He has been keeping things up in the air and easily read in various different ways until only recently. We_ all_ read deeply into what what is perceived as authorial support for our ship.
> 
> I would not single out NH when it comes to reading things into scenes that might not be there, don't mesh with what is known of the characters' interactions/thoughts and don't make sense considering continuing events and information that could be game changers. Pot calls kettle black.


I'm all for interpretation, sometimes things are just stretched too far for my tastes. It just has seemed to me that the NH/SS side goes out of their way to try and deny that NS ever existed in any capacity within the manga, for what I have to guess is the purpose of making NH look better because shes not Naruto's "silver medal"(a ridiculous argument when either sides tries to pull it) and/or make NH seem more plausible. To a practical minded person like myself this doesn't really make much sense, as denying most of what you try to deny isn't really necessary for NH to have a high chance of happening and be at least decently written from the side of Naruto at least. 

Both sides can go too far with "interpretation". A recent NS example is a good deal of that following trying to act like Hinata's dream sequence in the IT means it no longer has a chance due to it being next to things like Kiba being Hokage and because Naruto called the IT a big lie. However, this whole thing with trying to say Naruto was out of love with Sakura by the time of the failfession is very close to fanfiction. It isn't supported by anything other then wishful thinking or misunderstanding of Naruto being how he normally is and being held back by a promise as some subtle signs of him "moving on". 

-Thinking Naruto is wistful instead of anguished in the Sai flashback is not supported by any evidence. Naruto being anguished is supported by both Sai's interpretation of it and a previous scene where we see that Naruto is anguished by his love for Sakura(the part 1 hospital scene).

-Thinking Naruto is still not in love with Sakura at the time of the failfession is not supported by any evidence. Him still being in love with her is supported by Sai's flashback where he indirectly states that he loves her, there having been no indication past that flashback that he is falling out of love with her and the fact that when Sakura told him straight up that if he didn't love her he should just say it, he didn't answer in the affirmative, just dodged the question. You'd think that if he wasn't in love with her he would just say so then and there and get rid of any notion that she might have, so that she would stop what shes doing? He has just told Sakura that he hates people who lie to themselves and you'd think not being honest about his feelings right then and there wouldn't have been something he would have done at that time if he wasn't in love with her anymore?

-Thinking Naruto was never in love with her is possibly the biggest wishful thinking and only holds any modicum of validity due to the fact that he hasn't said it in straight words, even though the way he indirectly said it holds no room for any other interpretation other then him admitting that he loves her.


Maybe this is the way you and some others honestly interpret things while reading the manga but to me it just comes off as most of those who argue these things being intellectually dishonest. 



> It isn't wishful thinking to take into account all that had occurred since Sai's long ago flashback and consider that time and circumstance just may have influenced Naruto's feelings and made it easier for him to move on from his crush (Yeah, I'm gonna call it a crush, cos that's how I see it. Don't let that bother you).


I outlined why its wishful thinking above. Its not supported by any actual evidence based on Naruto's behavior or actions, only the wishful thinking of those who want him to be with someone else looking at what has happened and inserting how their feelings might change if they were in Naruto's shoes. They are not Naruto though, just like they are not Sakura or Hinata(and its quite absurd to try and put yourself in Sakura's shoes and not think that your feelings would have changed or started to change by this it). 

It only bothers me in that its hard to properly debate with someone who ignores such blatant evidence to the contrary when it comes to Naruto's feelings. Especially someone who argues that what Hinata and Sakura have are true love. I would still disagree but have more respect for someone of the position that none of their feelings are truly love, at least they wouldn't be as intellectually dishonest.


I miss Karyu Endan being in this thread. At least he could concede some points, try to see things through other viewpoints


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## Elicit94 (Jun 15, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Not necessarily. In both of those scenes Naruto was surprised, yes--but within the timeline of the story for very different reasons.
> 
> As I said, the first example you presented happened way back there closer to that wistful flashback presented by Sai. Naruto had a fantasy of being fed by Sakura from his tween days. Not surprising that her offer excited him at that time (even though he had accepted that her heart belonged to Sasuke).
> 
> The Iron Country confrontation is another matter altogether. Naruto asks her to repeat her words because they are totally unexpected and off the wall. Kishi has used those parenthesized series of dots to show thought and Naruto is obviously considering what she says, but he could just as likely be reacting to her rejection of Sasuke, which he knows to be a lie (and could cause him to blush for a different reason). The whole thing made no sense to him and his expression does not really reveal much more than wide eyed surprise.


It's like you keep finding the craziest ways to deny any serious implications of Naruto's feelings. I can't really take you seriously anymore. It's very evident that you're quite delusional and irrational.



> The most specific and influential event is pretty obvious, is it not? Naruto has been presented with the knowledge that there exists someone who loves him and has loved him all the way back to when he was a 'dead last' failure and village pariah. Someone willing to sacrifice it all because of that love. How could this not have a big influence on him?
> 
> Yes, I've heard it all...satellite character whose actions are of no import, Naruto never answered because he isn't interested, etc. I don't buy it. Remember when those Shinobi asked for Naruto's autograph? He didn't do it because of his own doubts about just what people really felt about him. If Naruto did not speak with Hinata before he left for Turtle Island (which remains a possibility), it is quite likely that he held back because of that hatred and distrust in his heart that had yet to be expelled at the Waterfall of Truth. Since then Naruto has certainly been giving Hinata much more attention that has encouraged her and has been noted by team mates and family (Neji, of course).
> 
> As I read it _Sai_ (and not the story, itself) defines Naruto as anguished in that flashback response, and nowhere else in part two has Naruto shown one anguished or angst filled moment or even expressed further wistful longing in regard to his feelings for Sakura.



How long is it going to take for people to fathom that when Naruto said that Sakura is sorta his girlfriend he really does not view Hinata in a romantic light and is still into Sakura? Sorry, but that's exactly what it means, even if you think it was joke. The narrative hates your interpretation that Hinata is a special snowflake that Naruto is obliged to fall in love with. It's just too bad.


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## SoulFire (Jun 15, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The way you went about your argument is pretty much exactly how others arguing for SS/NH have done in the past. You are certainly your own person but that particular argument is part of your sides hive mind. Both sides have one and few fall outside the collective.



I call it as I see it pairing-wise. The majority of my views quite naturally mesh with those of other NH fans because we interpret events and actions in a similar manner. I'm sure it is much the same with other pairing fandoms. Like minded individuals tend to seek one another out--it's always nice to find others whom share one's point of view, but I don't know that this necessarily indicates a 'hive mind'. 



> I'm all for interpretation, sometimes things are just stretched too far for my tastes. It just has seemed to me that the NH/SS side goes out of their way to try and deny that NS ever existed in any capacity within the manga, for what I have to guess is the purpose of making NH look better because shes not Naruto's "silver medal"(a ridiculous argument when either sides tries to pull it) and/or make NH seem more plausible. To a practical minded person like myself this doesn't really make much sense, as denying most of what you try to deny isn't really necessary for NH to have a high chance of happening and be at least decently written from the side of Naruto at least.



As I see it, Naruto did have a crush on Sakura that was actually strengthened due to his rivalry with Sasuke. As I have said before, I consider a crush a form of love that can be felt every bit as strongly as true romantic feelings: It simply doesn't have the staying power for one reason or another and wanes over time, but it can feel quite serious--and painful when one is in the midst of it.

NS has never existed within the manga--neither has NH or SS. None of these pairings are as of yet established canon. I've never used the 'silver medal' analogy regarding any pairing (I've seen it used for more than one).   



> Both sides can go too far with "interpretation". A recent NS example is a good deal of that following trying to act like Hinata's dream sequence in the IT means it no longer has a chance due to it being next to things like Kiba being Hokage and because Naruto called the IT a big lie. However, this whole thing with trying to say Naruto was out of love with Sakura by the time of the failfession is very close to fanfiction. It isn't supported by anything other then wishful thinking or misunderstanding of Naruto being how he normally is and being held back by a promise as some subtle signs of him "moving on".



Sometimes folks in a fandom just get boisterous and say silly things. That's how I look at that emphasis on the dream states of Hinata and the others. I see claiming that Naruto was still deeply and painfully in love with Sakura at the time of her confession as wishful thinking, as there is little to nothing to support it beyond Sai's long past flashback and the even more distant events surrounding the PoaL. 



> -Thinking Naruto is wistful instead of anguished in the Sai flashback is not supported by any evidence. Naruto being anguished is supported by both Sai's interpretation of it and a previous scene where we see that Naruto is anguished by his love for Sakura(the part 1 hospital scene).


The claim that Naruto is anguished is supported _solely_ by Sai's interpretation (that's the problem there for me). Naruto himself just never gives off much of an angsty vibe regarding his feelings for Sakura and hasn't since (as you note) way far back in part one, when acceptance that his non-reciprocated crush was still raw.



> -Thinking Naruto is still not in love with Sakura at the time of the failfession is not supported by any evidence. Him still being in love with her is supported by Sai's flashback where he indirectly states that he loves her, there having been no indication past that flashback that he is falling out of love with her and the fact that when Sakura told him straight up that if he didn't love her he should just say it, he didn't answer in the affirmative, just dodged the question. You'd think that if he wasn't in love with her he would just say so then and there and get rid of any notion that she might have, so that she would stop what shes doing? He has just told Sakura that he hates people who lie to themselves and you'd think not being honest about his feelings right then and there wouldn't have been something he would have done at that time if he wasn't in love with her anymore?



Guess it all depends on how viable one considers Sai's flashback. A distant second hand memory without any further back up from the subject of said memory doesn't cut it for me.  

Sakura said, "If you hate me just come out and say so!!" (directly after Naruto proclaimed to hate people who lie to themselves).  Of course Naruto does not hate her, so his response was to ignore this and continue to puzzle over her motives.



> Maybe this is the way you and some others honestly interpret things while reading the manga but to me it just comes off as most of those who argue these things being intellectually dishonest.



Ah, well...you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.



> I outlined why its wishful thinking above. Its not supported by any actual evidence based on Naruto's behavior or actions, only the wishful thinking of those who want him to be with someone else looking at what has happened and inserting how their feelings might change if they were in Naruto's shoes. They are not Naruto though, just like they are not Sakura or Hinata(and its quite absurd to try and put yourself in Sakura's shoes and not think that your feelings would have changed or started to change by this it).



I have never inserted myself into a character, so I have no idea what you're on about. I do find it absurd that due to what they perceive as unacceptable choices, some treat Sakura's continued apparent feelings as something that should be/needs to be changed. 



> It only bothers me in that its hard to properly debate with someone who ignores such blatant evidence to the contrary when it comes to Naruto's feelings. Especially someone who argues that what Hinata and Sakura have are true love. I would still disagree but have more respect for someone of the position that none of their feelings are truly love, at least they wouldn't be as intellectually dishonest.



Sorry, but I don't see that 'blatant' evidence as all that blatant. It is stale and covered in cobwebs at this point in the story. I haven't hyped that what Hinata and Sakura have is true love, but I will say that they have both professed their romantic feelings and made them very obvious while from Naruto we have heard not a peep. Second hand proclamations from a distant and different point in Naruto's development don't cut the mustard. 



> I miss Karyu Endan being in this thread. At least he could concede some points, try to see things through other viewpoints


I have no difficulty in seeing different points of view, but I'm not about to concede mine when I believe in them.


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## SoulFire (Jun 15, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > It's like you keep finding the craziest ways to deny any serious implications of Naruto's feelings. I can't really take you seriously anymore. It's very evident that you're quite delusional and irrational.
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> NS has never existed within the manga--neither has NH or SS. None of these pairings are as of yet established canon. I've never used the 'silver medal' analogy regarding any pairing (I've seen it used for more than one).


You understood what I meant by what I said. Don't act stupid. 



> Sometimes folks in a fandom just get boisterous and say silly things. That's how I look at that emphasis on the dream states of Hinata and the others. I see claiming that Naruto was still deeply and painfully in love with Sakura at the time of her confession as wishful thinking, as there is little to nothing to support it beyond Sai's long past flashback and the even more distant events surrounding the PoaL.


The burden of proof rather lies in the NH/SS camp to provide concrete evidence that he had fallen out of love with her by that time, to which they have only supplied highly ambiguous interpretations of scenes that go against prior evidence and context. This isn't A Song of Ice and Fire, we don't see scenes through a character lens and therefore the events are debatable based on their viewpoint. 



> The claim that Naruto is anguished is supported _solely_ by Sai's interpretation (that's the problem there for me). Naruto himself just never gives off much of an angsty vibe regarding his feelings for Sakura and hasn't since (as you note) way far back in part one, when acceptance that his non-reciprocated crush was still raw.


It being anguished would match with Naruto's prior response to such a situation and also fits with what he is saying. The context of the scene is Naruto talking about how he can't confess to Sakura due to a promise that looks far away from being able to keep, why wouldn't that cause him anguish? How is "wistful" a more appropriate tone for Naruto in that scene when its clear from his words that he loves her at that time? As I've said before, a confession would involve him telling Sakura that he loves her, so him basically saying that if it wasn't for the PoaL he would confess means that he is indirectly saying that he loves her. There is no other interpretation outside of trying to look way too deep and trying to twist Sai's POV as unreliable. Despite his inability to understand some emotion, I'm quite sure Sai is capable of telling apart different tones of voice and wistful is rather far from anguish on that scale. 



> Guess it all depends on how viable one considers Sai's flashback. A distant second hand memory without any further back up from the subject of said memory doesn't cut it for me.


I personally don't think Sai's flashback matters much at all. There shouldn't be reason to question Naruto's feelings for Sakura when there is no evidence that they have changed, thats basically the bottom line. Sai's flashback isn't the establishment of Naruto's feelings, just more confirmation of them. Feelings don't magically disappear off-panel without any evidence of it happening. It is only those with ulterior motives that would take an established fact and then try to put the burden of evidence on the other side to prove that that fact is still true despite no evidence that that established fact had ever changed. Its rather ludicrous.   



> Sakura said, "If you hate me just come out and say so!!" (directly after Naruto proclaimed to hate people who lie to themselves).  Of course Naruto does not hate her, so his response was to ignore this and continue to puzzle over her motives.




She is talking about him having romantic feelings for her, not the whole "I hate people who lie to themselves!" line. This is quite clear from Sakura saying "If you're just going to make up excuses."(which is obviously about his rejection of the her confession) and Naruto's response being about how he thinks its weird that she came out here just to confess. There is no interpretation here, she was speaking of Naruto loving her and Naruto dodged the question. Its not a translation thing either, given Naruto's response and Sakura's second line. 




> Sorry, but I don't see that 'blatant' evidence as all that blatant. It is stale and covered in cobwebs at this point in the story.


Established feelings don't have an expiration date. There is either evidence of them changing or there isn't. In this case, there isn't.



> I haven't hyped that what Hinata and Sakura have is true love, but I will say that they have both professed their romantic feelings and made them very obvious while from Naruto we have heard not a peep. Second hand proclamations from a distant and different point in Naruto's development don't cut the mustard.


Define what you mean by a different point in Naruto's development as it pertains to his romantic aspirations.


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## SoulFire (Jun 16, 2014)

> WolfPrinceKiba said:
> 
> 
> > You understood what I meant by what I said. Don't act stupid.
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> You mentioned denying 'that NS ever existed in any capacity within the manga' and I simply pointed out that it never has--and neither has either of the other 'Big Three'. I don't deny Naruto's early feelings for Sakura, but I do think they have changed over time.


I'm quite aware that none of them have ever been an official couple, I don't need this pointed out to me.  



> Throughout this war arc Kishi has been providing the reader with indications that Naruto's focus has turned elsewhere romantically, and I don't consider them as highly ambiguous at all.


I'd agree that there are indications that NH may be the route that hes going for based on the interactions they've had and due to to some things regarding Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, otherwise I wouldn't believe that NH still has a valid chance. However, I see no current indication of him reciprocating Hinata's romantic feelings, that is rather the only current thing in the way of the pairing. Their interactions here could very well lead to it, it just hasn't happened yet in my view. What you see as romantic reciprocation I see as camaraderie. With 615, given the fact that Hinata's cousin had just died when the handhold came and the fact that Naruto is thinking of everyone whose sacrificed themselves to help him get this far throughout the chapter. I never saw the whole "in your eyes" thing as anything more than a standard Naruto pick-me-up speech. 



> On the contrary, we have repeatedly been shown Naruto's despair over Sasuke's behavior and the loss Naruto feels because of it. We've been shown Naruto's devastation at the thought that he may have killed Hinata (first in his thoughts, there), complete with tears and a grip to his heart. Naruto's feelings toward Sakura, however, have remained outside that 'character lens' and have only appeared at one point and then through the 'lens' of another character with definite issues when it comes to understanding emotions.


I'm not sure how Sasuke's actions and the pain they cause Naruto are equivalent to his feelings for Sakura. While he may be pained by his love for Sakura, its not something you're going to see much unless he is given direct reason to lament over it. Its not in Naruto's character to be that way on a standard daily basis and he just wouldn't be able to cope that way. Sakura unlike Sasuke is around him on a daily basis and not doing gods no what evil stuff Sasuke may be up to at any given time. Every time he learns that Sasuke is further into darkness that pain is going to show, as its one step further to possibly losing Sasuke as a friend forever. His relationship with Sakura has remained mostly static and he doesn't have reason to be shown brooding over his feelings for her without any changes in their relationship taking place, as its outside the main plot whereas chasing after Sasuke has been a major part of the plot for the longest time. 

Not sure what you're going for with the Hinata thing. Replace Hinata with Sakura in that situation and tell me he doesn't have as strong or a stronger response. Sakura hasn't been in that same kind of position that Hinata was, plain and simple. 




> I wouldn't bet on that. Sai apparently realized that he had made a mistake after observing that fiasco of a confession.


What he had made a mistake on is up to interpretation. What he definitely made a mistake on is the same thing Sakura did: thinking that Naruto didn't want to pursue Sasuke for his own reasons, due to his bond with Sasuke. 



> Nonetheless, it certainly pops up quite frequently as a primary proof of Naruto's feelings for Sakura (primarily because it is the only scene in part two that even touches on that aspect).


I didn't mean it was important in general, it very much is. However, when it comes to debating whether Naruto's feelings still exist or not it isn't needed, for the mere fact that the established fact of his feelings has never been disputed in the manga. 




> Evidence that Naruto's feelings have possibly changed exists throughout the current war arc, with the only counter being a throw away series of comedic panels that I find rather ludicrous.


The better counter being that he himself has never had any romantic thoughts of Hinata and taken no actions that suggest more than camaraderie.




> Ah. You see, I'm quoting the official Viz translation. Naruto says that he hates people who lie to themselves and she answers with if you hate me then go ahead and say so. It is a translation thing.


Viz has been wrong in the past. How does it being about the "I hate people that lie to themselves!" line make sense given Sakura's line about making up excuses and Naruto's response of just thinking that its weird that she came out there to confess. Could you provide that entire panels dialogue from the Viz? I would like to see what Sakura's second line and Naruto's response are translated to in that because it would need to be a pretty huge deviation.


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 16, 2014)

at this point, it's kind of obvious which pairing kishi's gonna go for. 
the obviousness is there because of the parallels and sakura. 
naruto and sasuke simply switched roles. 
we saw this when naruto and sasuke met again at the kage summit bridge. 

naruto: sasuke... you and i... could've easily been in each others' shoes. 

or actually, it's not the roles that have been switched. 
it's more like naruto and sasuke were destined to be the polar opposite of each other. 
naruto was supposed to grow into his shoes and same with sasuke. 
if naruto was the antihero of the story in part 1, now he's the hero. 
same with sasuke. he's now the antihero of the story, not the hero. 
and sakura is the heroine who is supposed to be with the hero in the end, whoever the hero is of this story. 
in part 1, sasuke seemed more like the hero, and sakura was playing the conventional love interest because sasuke was seemingly the conventional hero. 
but we see that the axis has been reversed, or is turning around the way it's supposed to. 

the whole point of this story all along was about restoring order but in a 'break the tradition while keeping the background of it still the same' kind of way.  
kishi's done this in sort of an interesting way. 
everything will fit together in the end.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 16, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Oh, Lord. Are we back to that again!  Puh-leeze! There is nothing more to be said about it. You take the silliness seriously and I don't. How can the narrative hate my interpretation: It has never even met me! And I have never proclaimed that Naruto is obliged to fall in love with Hinata. Should it happen (and I think it will), he will fall in love with her because he _wants_ to.



If you believe that Naruto isn't currently in love with Hinata then why do you dismiss a re-confirmation of Naruto's feelings for Sakura just because the scene was treated as comedic relief? When Naruto implied to Konohamaru that she is his girlfriend (which you must admit had to be a true portrayal of his feelings) the comedy that followed was very similar to 631.


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## Chabal (Jun 16, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> What he had made a mistake on is up to interpretation. What he definitely made a mistake on is the same thing Sakura did: thinking that Naruto didn't want to pursue Sasuke for his own reasons, due to his bond with Sasuke.



I don't think anything in Sai's words implies he thinks he was wrong in his conclusions and his actions. From what I remember the only thing he says is that he was partly responsible for Sakura's actions, which is... A fact? He never said "I was wrong to talk to Sakura and I was wrong when I told her she made Naruto suffer and I shouldn't have told her she was the number one reason why Naruto wants to save Sasuke" (something he never did btw). 

Something that is often forgotten is that during the "guilt trip" Shizune said that Naruto wanted to save Sasuke for his own reasons and Sai replied "of course I know that". So again that whole interpretation about Sai not knowing what he's talking about and being in the wrong just isn't supported by anything in the narrative.


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## SoulFire (Jun 16, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I'm quite aware that none of them have ever been an official couple, I don't need this pointed out to me.


I was simply stating the obvious in response to your comment : NS has _not _ever existed in any capacity within the manga, so denying it is no big deal. No deliberate ruffling of feathers intended. 



> However, I see no current indication of him reciprocating Hinata's romantic feelings, that is rather the only current thing in the way of the pairing. Their interactions here could very well lead to it, it just hasn't happened yet in my view. What you see as romantic reciprocation I see as camaraderie. With 615, given the fact that Hinata's cousin had just died when the handhold came and the fact that Naruto is thinking of everyone whose sacrificed themselves to help him get this far throughout the chapter. I never saw the whole "in your eyes" thing as anything more than a standard Naruto pick-me-up speech.



Naruto has gradually been giving more and more attention to Hinata throughout this arc. It begins with his defense of her against the Zetsu (cleverly disguised as Cloud Shinobi). NaruHina tends to parallel itself, and this scene parallels to some extent Hinata's defense of Naruto against Pain (which Naruto recalls, showing us that he does remember that event). Kishi ensures that the 'in your eyes' interaction takes place before Hinata's team mates and cousin Neji, and we are shown that they are paying attention and that something is going on between Naruto and Hinata. I believe Kiba's call out to Naruto showing off in front of Hinata got its start here.

Naruto also gives pause when Hinata leaps in to join Neji and Hiashi as they rally to protect him against the Juubi, with a panel showing his concerned 'Hinata!' upon her appearance. 

The aftermath of Neji's death, the handhold, etc. simply continues to build on this growing connection between them. You can call it camaraderie, but Naruto's gentle smile, the squeezing of her fingers and the changing of the handhold to a more traditional one all indicate a developing relationship. Hinata's confident response all but confirms it. She's picking up a new and different vibe from Naruto, even if some readers are not.



> I'm not sure how Sasuke's actions and the pain they cause Naruto are equivalent to his feelings for Sakura. While he may be pained by his love for Sakura, its not something you're going to see much unless he is given direct reason to lament over it. Its not in Naruto's character to be that way on a standard daily basis and he just wouldn't be able to cope that way.



The pain Naruto might be experiencing from his unrequited love of Sakura would naturally be different from that felt about the Sasuke dilemma, but I still expect to see some clear indication of it in order for me to believe that it even continues to exist.  I just don't. One flashback from Sai and a page of joke panels does not do it.



> Not sure what you're going for with the Hinata thing. Replace Hinata with Sakura in that situation and tell me he doesn't have as strong or a stronger response. *Sakura hasn't been in that same kind of position that Hinata was, plain and simple. *


 
That is the point. Kishi could also have replaced Hinata with Sakura at various times within the story, but he did not. We don't know what Naruto's response would be, but that is neither here nor there. That was not what Kishi was aiming for.



> What he had made a mistake on is up to interpretation. What he definitely made a mistake on is the same thing Sakura did: thinking that Naruto didn't want to pursue Sasuke for his own reasons, due to his bond with Sasuke.



Sai's mistake was taking it upon himself to act and to speak for someone else. Good intentions or not, he butted into Naruto's business and made a mess of it.



> I didn't mean it was important in general, it very much is. However, when it comes to debating whether Naruto's feelings still exist or not it isn't needed, for the mere fact that the established fact of his feelings has never been disputed in the manga.



The fact that he had feelings was never disputed, but their extent and whether they remain the same definitely could be.



> Viz has been wrong in the past. How does it being about the "I hate people that lie to themselves!" line make sense given Sakura's line about making up excuses and Naruto's response of just thinking that its weird that she came out there to confess. Could you provide that entire panels dialogue from the Viz? I would like to see what Sakura's second line and Naruto's response are translated to in that because it would need to be a pretty huge deviation.



I own the volume, so I'll quote from it:

After Naruto makes his 'I hate lying liars' statement it goes as follows:

Sakura: "I'm...lying to myself?  I think I know my own heart. I know how I feel!! If you hate me, just come out and say so!! Don't make some lame excuse." 

Naruto: "But it's just weird! You came all the way here just to say this to me?!"

I read it as Sakura saying, "Are you indicating that _I'm_ a lying liar--okay then, come out and say that you hate me--don't beat around the bush like that."


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 17, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> The pain Naruto might be experiencing from his unrequited love of Sakura would naturally be different from that felt about the Sasuke dilemma, but I still expect to see some clear indication of it in order for me to believe that it even continues to exist.  I just don't. One flashback from Sai and a page of joke panels does not do it.


Your set of expectations for things to be considered valid are always rather amusing to me. The flashback from Sai is all the confirmation we needed that the anguish continued past the timeskip, nothing else is actually needed unless there is actual development in that regard, which there hasn't been. As I said, his relationship with Sakura has been static for quite awhile now, without any specific reason for him to be directly questioned about the status of his relationship with her(like with Sai) and with Sakura not getting together with anyone else/no Sasuke to cling onto like she did in part 1, there is no reason for Naruto's anguish to be continually brought up. Kishi established that it still exists and until we are given *direct * reason to believe it doesn't exist there shouldn't be cause to question the validity of it. 

Thats what I find so preposterous about most of these Naruto arguments. Established facts don't stop being established facts just because you expect them to be restated an arbitrary amount of times for them to still be valid. Established facts don't stop being established facts just because one-dimensional characters when shown harp on about their single dimension in comparison to characters with more dimensions not focusing on one topic as much as the one-dimensional characters do, especially given said multi-dimensional characters nature, gender and static state of relationship. 




> That is the point. Kishi could also have replaced Hinata with Sakura at various times within the story, but he did not. We don't know what Naruto's response would be, but that is neither here nor there. That was not what Kishi was aiming for.


Kishi could have also have given Hinata relevance at an early point in part 2 instead of having her be off-screen for half of it. Certain characters work better for certain points in a story, depending on what the author wishes to convey and their general positions, personalities, duties, etc.

It seems in a way that you are suggesting Kishi should have put Sakura in some super life threatening situation in part 2 so that Naruto could rescue the damsel in distress, which would be a rehash of the Gaara fight(which unlike the Pein and Hinata thing, was given romantic context *on Naruto's side*). 




> The fact that he had feelings was never disputed, but their extent and whether they remain the same definitely could be.


I can agree with this to a general extent. I'd hold that he definitely was in love with her in the Sai flashback scene as there really isn't any other interpretation of his words there. Whether Naruto has been slowly having his feelings shifted elsewhere after he put his feelings for Sakura in standby mode can is a topic that can be debated.





> I own the volume, so I'll quote from it:
> 
> After Naruto makes his 'I hate lying liars' statement it goes as follows:
> 
> ...


As is, this looks like another Viz mistranslation because the change to "if you hate me" from "if you don't like me" makes the rest of her lines and Naruto's response not really make sense. She knows on an intellectual level that he doesn't hate her and despite not meaning that he truly hated her, Naruto had directly said that he hates people who lie to themselves at the end of the chapter before it(not seconds before these next lines). So if the Viz translation was right, she'd be demanding that he straight say that he hates her after he had done just that. The lame excuse part makes no sense as what lame excuse is she referring to in this case? That he have a different reason to hate her than what his stated one, which again she would know wasn't true anyways(that he hates her). Naruto's response is further confirmation given what he finds weird is that she'd come out her just to confess, which means that what she had just said was in regards to her love confession and his rejection of it. not the "I hate people who lie to themselves!" line.


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## SoulFire (Jun 17, 2014)

> WolfPrinceKiba said:
> 
> 
> > Your set of expectations for things to be considered valid are always rather amusing to me. The flashback from Sai is all the confirmation we needed that the anguish continued past the timeskip, nothing else is actually needed unless there is actual development in that regard, which there hasn't been.
> ...


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## Corvida (Jun 17, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 17, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Perhaps that is all that you need to believe that Naruto retains a deep and enduring love for Sakura that pains him, but it takes more than that to convince me that Naruto's feelings are intact and unchanged.


It seems the reason you may feel more need for confirmation/reconfirmation is that you never thought Naruto's feelings were more than a crush. Its not a conclusion that I can understand given all the evidence and that his feelings have had the most opportunity to grow given he has by far more interaction with Sakura then Sakura with Sasuke or Hinata with Naruto. 




> My view of Sai's flashback is that it is indirect evidence made weak because it is not delivered directly from Naruto, himself.


...except that it was. It was Naruto who was speaking the lines that Sai read anguish into and that any reader given the tone of the scene and Naruto's past anguish over his love for Sakura can come to. Is Naruto himself supposed to dramatically say "Oh, the *anguish!*" at the end of that scene? We read anguish in Naruto's face in the part 1 hospital scene, here we do not see his face but the other contextual clues lead to him being in anguish. 



> Sakura has never dropped her feelings for Sasuke (repeatedly shown to us in a manner that could easily be used to show Naruto's feelings as well--but which has not) and now Sasuke is back in the


They are repeatedly shown for the same reason that Naruto's are. They have reason to be brought up repeatedly due to Sasuke's further descent into darkness, which has direct impact on the main plot. Naruto being in anguish over his love for Sakura every time he sees Sakura in anguish over hearing about Sasuke getting darker wouldn't exactly work too much given his own anguish at the situation, the fact that Sakura would be in anguish regardless of romantic love for him and it being the status quo which he is used to at this point. Though really the only time there was good opportunity to show it, it can be argued that it was:



Compare to:



The problem being is this is right after Naruto is learning about Sasuke joining Akatsuki alongside Sakura, so its ambiguous if his anguish over his love for Sakura is mixed in there or not. Which, along with the static state of their relationship, is the main reason that we don't see it repeated ad nauseam.



> Now we're going inter-dimensional, huh? I'm not going to worry about that as it has nothing to do with anything in the long run, imo.


Not sure what you mean by that. I wasn't bringing up the character dimensions for the sake of saying which pairing is endgame, only to prove a point that one note characters will continue to play that one note, them doing so doesn't give that one note any more importance than any of a multi-layed characters many notes, even if separately those notes aren't played as much as the one-note characters note. 



> Something established at one point of a story should be returned to from time to time as the story and the characters themselves change and grow. This has certainly been the case with Sakura, but for Naruto those romantic feelings for her just have not been shown to be that very important in the long run.


It should be returned to when there is cause to do so. Naruto's relationship with Sakura has remained mostly static throughout part 2. Sakura is given reason to rethink her feelings and/or there is cause for the author to give the readers an idea of the current state of her feelings fairly often due to Sasuke's continued dark path. 540 was necessary because after the events of Iron Country you'd have to think that the readers would be wondering about her feelings for Sasuke post murder attempts(a scene that we may discuss if you wish, considering its status as either a positive or negative scene for SS).



> That was way too early in the story for Kishi, I think. He wanted to culminate his romantic threads along with his primary ones and the early stories were more about the reformation of a Team 7 and Naruto's personal growth as he fought with his weakness and fear and learned more about the meaning of being a Jinchuuriki.


Even if we don't change any of the actual straight events that happen, there are multiple missed opportunities prior to Hinata's confession for him to develop their relationship a bit. He could have given some hints in Naruto's first meeting with her in part 2(which he could of wrote any way he wanted to, even having Naruto come across her training and remark on her growth...in possibly more ways than one). He could of done much more with the fact that he paired them in the same squad during the hunt for Itachi. 



> I don't know that Kishi had even thought out how exactly he was going to go about his pairings at that point in the story.


I doubt that given most of these kind of stories are planned far in advance. It would give credence to theory that if NH does happen that it wasn't a long time planned thing and was only decided in the middle of part 2. 




> Naruto says that he hates folks who lie to themselves. She says are you inferring that I'm lying? Don't beat around the bush--say you hate ME! Naruto just goes back to wondering what in the heck she is really doing there.


I asked talkL to translate the panel because currently the Viz translation doesn't make logical sense on multiple levels, though that could possibly be something lost in translation.


*Edit:*



takL said:


> "i make up my mind for myself!! if you don't like me, be honest with me!! rather than making up self serving excuses―"
> "but its odd, don't you think! (You came) all the way here just for such a thing?!"



Having just been in the translation thread I ran across takL's translation of Kakashi's lines a few chapters back about Sakura's feelings. Seeing as there was the whole long argument involving ch1p about them, its weird that his actual translation was never posted:




takL said:


> Sakura: I'm Sakura Haruno.
> What I like is ah... ...or rather ah    who I like is...
> hmmm...  ... maybe I will spill my future dream too...
> Sakura: Squeeeeeee!!
> ...




Unless there was more he said about it, I don't see how his translation particular favors the position that Sakura's feelings grew to being true love. "Love is love and yet the feelings are different." can be easily translated to her feelings going from romantic love to platonic love.


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## SoulFire (Jun 17, 2014)

> WolfPrinceKiba said:
> 
> 
> > It seems the reason you may feel more need for confirmation/reconfirmation is that you never thought Naruto's feelings were more than a crush.
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 17, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> The moment was a part of Sai's memory. I'd like to see Naruto's recollection of the same scene.


A flashback isn't really a look into someones memories, at least thats not how Kishi puts them forth. What exact change would a Naruto recollection bring? Do you think Sai forgot some important words of Naruto's? 



> My beef is with the fact that Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura are NOT repeatedly shown.


That wasn't what I was talking about in that quote. I was talking about Naruto's feelings about Sasuke being brought up repeatedly, which has the same reason as Sakura's feelings being brought up repeatedly, that being Sasuke's continued descent into darkness.



> Whew! That was one convoluted sentence! Regarding what I gleaned from it, I will say don't mistake empathy (first example) for romantic anguish (the second). Not to mention that these two scenes took place years apart with ample time between for Naruto to come to grips with his hurt feelings.Naruto is understanding Sakura's pain as well as sharing in it, as Sasuke's apparent betrayal tears at their shared hope to bring him home to Team 7. It really has nothing to do with a sense of anguish on his part regarding his feelings toward her.


I said myself that that scene can't be used as anywhere close to definitive evidence. You ignored my point though. You made the argument that Sakura's anguish over Sasuke can be used to show Naruto's anguish over his love for Sakura. That scene is a great example why that just isn't much of a possibility in part 2. When she is given reason to be shown in anguish over Sasuke(learning of his continued descent), Naruto is also going to be in anguish over Sasuke, therefore hes not really going to be giving any focus on his feelings for Sakura when a bigger issue affecting Sasuke is on his mind. It would be kind of petty for him to even think about it, given that Sakura while not his girlfriend is still there as his friend and not out doing evil things and her being anguish over that fact being reason for him to be shown pining over her goes against Naruto's character. Even if his anguish over his unrequited romantic feelings are mixed in there somewhat, its impossible to tell in any concrete manner and therefore, like you have just done, be dismissed as a possibility.  





> All I will say about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke is that they have not changed despite everything.


They haven't fully changed yet. Like with the reminder of how 540 only happened around a day or two ago in real time within the manga, the events of Iron Country only happened at most a month or two ago in real time. Deeply rooted feelings don't just vanish even in the face of truly terrible developments, such things take time. If Kishi chooses to not have SS happen and have Sakura move on from Sasuke, he has already laid the groundwork  for her feelings for him fading with her downcast look in 540, her fake smile and Sasuke continually being shown not to care for her even on the level of a standard comrade.




> True, but remember that Kishi stated that he was uncertain as to how to incorporate romance into the story. And as I said before, he didn't want to get the pairing ball rolling too early in the story. I think he may have wanted to initiate it in the search for Itachi quest, but he backed off for some reason, perhaps feeling it was just not the right time. Who knows, but Kishi? I dunno how far Kishi plans in advance, but I do think that he was a bit flummuxed about how and when to instigate his romance thread in earnest. That said, I do think that he has had plans for Hinata from her conception at the story's beginning and that he has finally begun to act on them.


He certainly has had conceptual ideas for her possible role from early on. Given Hinata's lack of presence throughout most of part 2 and only somewhat development of a relationship between her and Naruto being put into part 1 along with the strong emphasis on NS for the first half of part 2, I doubt he had any sort of definitive plans for NH happening until more towards the mid-way point of part 2(if that is his plan).




> I've seen this translation, and my only response is that translating from Japanese ain't easy. Personally, I think it's obvious that Sakura still loves Sasuke at this point.


She still cares about him as a friend but the strength of her romantic feelings should certainly be in doubt. They still exist but I'd say they are continually growing weaker.


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## BatoKusanagi (Jun 18, 2014)

I thought Kakashi's statements about Sakura's feelings were clear enough and nothing we didn't know about already: Sakura's feelings have gone from her part 1 fangirling to real love (and takl's translation only confirms it with "Sasuke you've loved" which gets rid of the 'past tense' that confused people and correctly puts Sakura's feelings as an on-going thing), but for those who think otherwise-- considering it was Kakashi speaking from the information he has, what exactly do you think he witnessed that would make him believe Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are now platonic? I mean, last time he heard anything about Sakura's feelings was at the Land of Iron when Naruto and Sai stated several times that Sakura loves Sasuke; and since then nothing to contradict that has happened.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 18, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> I thought Kakashi's statements about Sakura's feelings were clear enough and nothing we didn't know about already: Sakura's feelings have gone from her part 1 fangirling to real love, but for those who think otherwise-- considering it was Kakashi speaking from the information he has, what exactly do you think he witnessed that would make him believe Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are now platonic? I mean, last time he heard anything about Sakura's feelings was at the Land of Iron when Naruto and Sai stated several times that Sakura loves Sasuke.


It's not that they are now platonic... it's just that they are regressing. If Kakashi wanted to say that her love has matured, he would have said that a long time ago. He has already acknowledged that Sakura wanted to kill Sasuke because of true love back in the Kage Summit arc, so if he's now making guesses on her changing feelings he can only suspect that they have regressed.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 18, 2014)

BatoKusanagi said:


> I thought Kakashi's statements about Sakura's feelings were clear enough and nothing we didn't know about already: Sakura's feelings have gone from her part 1 fangirling to real love (and takl's translation only confirms it with "Sasuke you've loved" which gets rid of the 'past tense' that confused people and correctly puts Sakura's feelings as an on-going thing), but for those who think otherwise-- considering it was Kakashi speaking from the information he has, what exactly do you think he witnessed that would make him believe Sakura's feelings for Sasuke are now platonic? I mean, last time he heard anything about Sakura's feelings was at the Land of Iron when Naruto and Sai stated several times that Sakura loves Sasuke; and since then nothing to contradict that has happened.





takL said:


> Suki means to 'like/be fond of/love' something/someone.
> and no its not だ(da） the text says 好いていた, not 好いていだ which isnt in standard  jp.
> its modyfying the noun Sasuke. 好いていたサスケ
> like the example of 好いた男 (the man she fell for)
> ...





takL said:


> Un unh, like i said its either in the present perfect or the past progressive.
> if 'the man who tried to kill sakura', it can be put as 'Sasuke who sakura was loving'.
> if 'the man who has tried to kill sakura', it has to be 'Sasuke who sakura has loved/been fond of'.




takL talks in a strange manner due to English not being his first language but what I gather is that it can be taken as being in the past tense or present tense.


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## SoulFire (Jun 19, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> A flashback isn't really a look into someones memories, at least thats not how Kishi puts them forth. What exact change would a Naruto recollection bring? Do you think Sai forgot some important words of Naruto's?


 
I think that the memory would have more weight if it were Naruto's reflection on his feelings and not that of someone else.



> That wasn't what I was talking about in that quote. I was talking about Naruto's feelings about Sasuke being brought up repeatedly, which has the same reason as Sakura's feelings being brought up repeatedly, that being Sasuke's continued descent into darkness.



True, they both mourn the loss of Sasuke to darkness and that is the only time you see Naruto giving Sakura those angsty looks--when he understands and empathizes with her despair regarding their shared loss. His own personal feelings toward her are simply not touched upon at all within part two of the story--save for Sai's flashback from a distant and far different period in the timeline.



> I said myself that that scene can't be used as anywhere close to definitive evidence. You ignored my point though. You made the argument that Sakura's anguish over Sasuke can be used to show Naruto's anguish over his love for Sakura. That scene is a great example why that just isn't much of a possibility in part 2. When she is given reason to be shown in anguish over Sasuke(learning of his continued descent), Naruto is also going to be in anguish over Sasuke, therefore hes not really going to be giving any focus on his feelings for Sakura when a bigger issue affecting Sasuke is on his mind.* It would be kind of petty for him to even think about it, given that Sakura while not his girlfriend is still there as his friend* and not out doing evil things and her being anguish over that fact being reason for him to be shown pining over her goes against Naruto's character. Even if his anguish over his unrequited romantic feelings are mixed in there somewhat, its impossible to tell in any concrete manner and therefore, like you have just done, be dismissed as a possibility.



Actually, I had a difficult time figuring out what you were saying. What I'm saying is that those scenes wherein Naruto and Sakura share in their anguish and concern over Sasuke are often sited as evidence of Naruto's anguish over Sakura. 

As you say, Naruto _knows_ that Sakura is _not_ his girlfriend.



> They haven't fully changed yet. Like with the reminder of how 540 only happened around a day or two ago in real time within the manga, the events of Iron Country only happened at most a month or two ago in real time. *Deeply rooted feelings don't just vanish even in the face of truly terrible developments, such things take time.* If Kishi chooses to not have SS happen and have Sakura move on from Sasuke, he has already laid the groundwork  for her feelings for him fading with her downcast look in 540, her fake smile and Sasuke continually being shown not to care for her even on the level of a standard comrade.


 
This is an interesting view, as it represents my thoughts on Naruto's feelings for Sakura. Time and circumstance laid the groundwork for Naruto to move on past his crush. I don't view Sakura's current series of expressions over Sasuke's apparently callous attitude as evidence of fading feelings: I see it as Kishi setting up for the much needed emotional confrontation between she and Sasuke which I feel certain is yet to come.



> He certainly has had conceptual ideas for her possible role from early on. Given Hinata's lack of presence throughout most of part 2 and only somewhat development of a relationship between her and Naruto being put into part 1 along with the strong emphasis on NS for the first half of part 2, I doubt he had any sort of definitive plans for NH happening until more towards the mid-way point of part 2(if that is his plan).



I find that the emphasis on NS early in part two was to build upon and strengthen their relationship as friends and team mates. Hinata had no real place in the first several arcs of part two.  Like the majority of the rookies, her place in the story was put on the back burner until Kishi was ready to address her part in the story, but I do think that Kishi always had a plan for her and that he has begun to put it into in motion. 




WolfPrinceKiba said:


> takL talks in a strange manner due to English not being his first language but what I gather is that it can be taken as being in the past tense or present tense.



Sometimes things just don't translate easily.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 19, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I don't view Sakura's current series of expressions over Sasuke's apparently callous attitude as evidence of fading feelings: I see it as Kishi setting up for the much needed emotional confrontation between she and Sasuke which I feel certain is yet to come.


Why wouldn't they be fading? If Kakashi says that her feelings have changed, than those expressions obviously points to them fading away. Even if there is a emotional confrontation, what the hell would you even expect? There is just no development in SasuSaku that can be considered romantic.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 19, 2014)

> I don't view Sakura's current series of expressions over Sasuke's apparently callous attitude as evidence of fading feelings: I see it as Kishi setting up for the much needed emotional confrontation between she and Sasuke which I feel certain is yet to come.



And what the hell do you expect from such an emotional confrontation? Something positive? He admits that he's LUVED her this whole time despite attempting to kill her three times, and essentially leaving her for dead TWICE, and would've left her to succumb to IT had she not been around Naruto? You actually expect Sasuke to CARE even if she DID confront him about his behavior? How many times has that worked out for Sakura? or ANY character when confronting Sasuke? The only person Sasuke's ever apologized to was Karin. 

If that's Sasuke's way of expressing hidden romantic feelings, then this is a fucked up "romance" that make Twilight seem Oscar worthy in comparison. 

The only way SS works is if you change each character's personalities around to the point where they completely unrecognizable from canon, to the point where they might as well be different characters. You twist the narrative to fit an agenda, even when Kishi has Sasuke OUTRIGHT says that Kakashi and Sakura are worthless, you take it as some sort of "hidden feelings", when prior actions and his own words shoots that bullshit down like a torpedo. 

Kishi isn't setting up anything. He's just making it plainfully obvious that Sasuke only cares about Naruto and he has a hidden, implied sinister goal, once Kaguya is taken care of. Judging by Sakura's reaction AND her support of Naruto to be Hokage (which directly contradicts Sasuke's goal) you REALLY think she's going to side with him? 

Not a snowball's chance in hell.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 19, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> I think that the memory would have more weight if it were Naruto's reflection on his feelings and not that of someone else.


Sure it would. That doesn't mean there is cause to believe that Sai forgot something Naruto said or his recollection of Naruto's body language is off(which as I said, isn't even how Kishi flashbacks work, he isn't going to have something be distorted for the reason of "its a memory" as while the reason for the flashback in this case is that its one, he isn't going to write it in any out there manner to try and reflect that). 




> Actually, I had a difficult time figuring out what you were saying. What I'm saying is that those scenes wherein Naruto and Sakura share in their anguish and concern over Sasuke are often sited as evidence of Naruto's anguish over Sakura.
> 
> As you say, Naruto _knows_ that Sakura is _not_ his girlfriend.


They aren't cited by me as such, which should have been clear two posts ago. That is besides the point however. This specific discussion was based on you saying this:




SoulFire! said:


> My view of Sai's flashback is that it is indirect evidence made weak because it is not delivered directly from Naruto, himself. Sakura has never dropped her feelings for Sasuke (repeatedly shown to us in a manner that could easily be used to show Naruto's feelings as well--but which has not)


Sakura's feelings for Sasuke in part 2 are only really brought up when new development in his descent is brought forward. Saying that her feelings for Sasuke being brought up makes it easy for Naruto's for her to be brought up isn't a good analysis of the situation due to the points I made about Naruto's own anguish over Sasuke, which has been what I have been arguing. 




> This is an interesting view, as it represents my thoughts on Naruto's feelings for Sakura. Time and circumstance laid the groundwork for Naruto to move on past his crush.


If Kishi goes the way of NH then sure, from a reader perspective we could understand why Naruto chose to move on and it would be believable. However, there is no actual evidence of him having moved on in the manga. No thoughts from him of how he should move on from Sakura, having negative thoughts of Sakura, having positive romantic thoughts for Hinata, etc. There is nothing concrete to work with, just speculation. Compare that to Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, which has direct evidence that can be pointed to as signs that her feelings are fading/are set to change in the future(downcast look in 540, fake smile, constantly looking destroyed by his comments to her).




> I don't view Sakura's current series of expressions over Sasuke's apparently callous attitude as evidence of fading feelings: I see it as Kishi setting up for the much needed emotional confrontation between she and Sasuke which I feel certain is yet to come.


My response to this is basically the same as Bankai's, though less crude. Sure we know that Sasuke either deep, deep, deep down cares for Kakashi and Sakura as comrades or that he eventually will care for them as such, that doesn't translate to him not being a prick and having any sort of romantic reciprocation towards Sakura. 





> I find that the emphasis on NS early in part two was to build upon and strengthen their relationship as friends and team mates. Hinata had no real place in the first several arcs of part two.  Like the majority of the rookies, her place in the story was put on the back burner until Kishi was ready to address her part in the story, but I do think that Kishi always had a plan for her and that he has begun to put it into in motion.


The NS romantic implications are certainly there and fairly strong in the first half of part 2. Its not as if growing their bond in general doesn't bolster either a friendship or a romantic relationship, whichever Kishi chose to go with. Him changing his mind would make sense with Hinata's confession followed closely by Sakura's "failfession", though he very well missed his chance to have Naruto just tell Sakura in chapter 470 that hes moved on from her if thats what he was going for.


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## SoulFire (Jun 19, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why wouldn't they be fading? If Kakashi says that her feelings have changed, than those expressions obviously points to them fading away. Even if there is a emotional confrontation, what the hell would you even expect? There is just no development in SasuSaku that can be considered romantic.


Like I said: Sometimes things just don't translate easily. That series of panels is every bit as ambiguous as the gf ones. They can be interpreted differently depending on one's pov. 


BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And what the hell do you expect from such an emotional confrontation? Something positive?



Note that I didn't say anything about the outcome of the certain to happen confrontation between Sasuke and Sakura. I make no predictions other than it will definitely happen because the rift between them must and will be addressed. What happens during and after they actually finally face each other is up to Kishi, not you and not me. 



> WolfPrinceKiba said:
> 
> 
> > Sure it would. That doesn't mean there is cause to believe that Sai forgot something Naruto said or his recollection of Naruto's body language is off(which as I said, isn't even how Kishi flashbacks work, he isn't going to have something be distorted for the reason of "its a memory" as while the reason for the flashback in this case is that its one, he isn't going to write it in any out there manner to try and reflect that).
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 20, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Like I said: Sometimes things just don't translate easily. That series of panels is every bit as ambiguous as the gf ones. They can be interpreted differently depending on one's pov.



I'm pretty sure the most accurate translations would imply that her feelings are fading. It makes no sense for Kakashi to guess that her feelings have matured because he would have already noticed that by the time of the Kage Summit arc when she wanted to kill Sasuke because of love. If he's comparing the old Sakura with the current one he can't help but notice that her romantic feelings for Sasuke are not as strong as they used to be or are non-existent. There's also nothing Kakashi can notice about Sakura in 675 that can indicate that her feelings have matured, only things that indicate that they have regressed significantly.


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## Tangle (Jun 20, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I'm pretty sure the most accurate translations would imply that her feelings are fading. It makes no sense for Kakashi to guess that her feelings have matured because he would have already noticed that by the time of the Kage Summit arc when she wanted to kill Sasuke because of love. If he's comparing the old Sakura with the current one he can't help but notice that her romantic feelings for Sasuke are not as strong as they used to be or are non-existent. There's also nothing Kakashi can notice about Sakura in 675 that can indicate that her feelings have matured, only things that indicate that they have regressed significantly.



He is comparing her feelings to the mere silly crush she had on Sasuke in chapter 4, ofc they have matured since then.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 20, 2014)

Tangle said:


> He is comparing her feelings to the mere silly crush she had on Sasuke in chapter 4, ofc they have matured since then.



That makes no sense because Kakashi should have already known that her feelings from chapter 4 have matured by the end of the Kage Summit arc (if they did). If he's thinking that her feelings have probably changed, there is no reason for him to believe that it has probably matured because how could those feelings get stronger than they were in the Kage Summit arc? He doesn't view her feelings back then as a "silly crush", all he's really doing is comparing the aspect of her having romantic feelings for Sasuke back then to now. Even the viz translation doesn't support that her feelings back then were a silly crush ("You still love him", meaning that with this translation Kakashi believes that her "silly crush" back then was genuine love).


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 20, 2014)

Tangle said:


> He is comparing her feelings to the mere silly crush she had on Sasuke in chapter 4, ofc they have matured since then.



Matured and then completely shitted on by Sasuke being a total POS to her. 

Sorry peeps. There's no possible way you can justify these two being in a relationship. 

None.

Absolutely NONE.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 21, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Matured and then completely shitted on by Sasuke being a total POS to her.
> 
> Sorry peeps. There's no possible way you can justify these two being in a relationship.
> 
> ...



Don't worry, Naruto is being made to end up with Hinata once the war is over, so that leaves Sakura who must end up with someone and that person can only be Sasuke. It must work out since Kishimoto has already decided to appease Hinata, no matter how inane or bizarre it'll seem.


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## Guest no jutsu (Jun 22, 2014)

I couldn't be arsed to read the whole thread but I skimmed through some of your posts and I see everyone trying to prioritize events over others and getting too invested in a microscopic view of the manga.

However it is established that from the beginning up to now that 1. Naruto likes/loves Sakura 2. Sakura loves/likes Sasuke 3. Hinata loves/likes Naruto.

We never see any solid reciprocity from the recipients of love/like so no pairing has any priority over the other. Tsunade and Jiraiya's relationship was similar to that of Naruto and Sakura which could foreshadow a platonic future. That being said I don't think Sakura's future is with Sasuke either, apart from thanking her that one time before he left Sasuke never gave two shits about Sakura and it would be ridiculous if the pairing happened.

I predict and I HOPE that this situation remains open at the end of the manga. The only characters we have seen hooking up are Minato/Kushina and Asuma/Kurenai and their interest was mutual ,perhaps in the former it wasn't as mutual as the latter but it can still be called 'mutual' compared to the far reaching one-sidedness in SS NS and NH . So in the end I think we might only have a definitive answer with Shikamaru and Temari since their cues are similar to Asuma/Kurenai's i:e not admitting that they like each other but the rest of the cast realizes. The other cues we are given in the relevant pairings in this thread aren't at all similar to the established pairings and are effectively too one-sided and contradictory and should remain open to the fan to decide. I hope this ends up being the case (unless naruto and/or sasuke die then it's a non issue and Kakashi bangs all) 

I hope my mentioning of the established pairings isn't against the rules since I only discussed them to determine the subject matter that is NH SS and NS


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## Corvida (Jun 23, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Kakashi is flashbacking  to the day he met his tream of then  pre ninja and pre missions.innocent shool children   How it doesnt make sense?Specially as he?s repeating verbatim what was said on Iron land country,  some weeks before manga time.



He's most likely saying something that is pretty different to what was said in the Iron Land Country, but I guess if you use the viz translation it's basically a repeat. The viz translation makes Kakashi look like a moron for not noticing something that was repeatedly said and implied back in the iron land country (I bet you love him even more :amazed), but every other translation points to what would make more sense from his perspective: that he's noticing a regression on Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. .


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## SoulFire (Jun 23, 2014)

Kakashi was reiterating what was said in Iron Country and noting to himself (upon seeing how Sakura was handling again facing Sasuke after that last confrontation) that her feelings for Sasuke had indeed matured from the goofy tween crush of a twelve year old. Doesn't matter how it is interpreted, as it will be Sakura, herself, who will confirm the extent of her current feelings when that coming Sasuke/Sakura confrontation takes place.


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## Corvida (Jun 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> He's most likely saying something that is pretty different to what was said in the Iron Land Country, but I guess if you use the viz translation it's basically a repeat. The viz translation makes Kakashi look like a moron for not noticing something that was repeatedly said and implied back in the iron land country



No.That?s not what was said in Iron country-what was said there -was that Sakura wanted to prevent Sasuke from falling further into darkness becasue she loved him.

Just the same thing Kakshi is reiteraing here-with a flashback of chapter 4  giggling and blushingSakura thinking Sasuke watting to kill a certain man was the summun of kewlness,...... as an apt comparison.



> (I bet you love him even more :amazed), but every other translation points to what would make more sense from his perspective: that he's noticing a regression on Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. .



That he?s noticing how Sakura has matuyed from chapter four.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 23, 2014)

Kakashi's words can only be understood in context. Let's answer one question first:

*What was the main topic of Kakashi's monologue?*

Team seven , his own students and their 12 year old selves when they first became genin and their dreams VS their current selves and dreams.

That's a clear point that cannot be argued. All the comparisons Kakashi is making are between his 12 year old students in chapter 4 and their current selves.

*For Naruto:*

12 year old : He wanted to be Hokage so everyone will acknowledge him.

current self : everyone already acknowledged him and sees him as a hero but he STILL wants to be Hokage. Meaning the dream is still the same but the reason for wanting that dream is now *more mature* than his 12 year old self-centered one.

*For Sakura:*

12 year old: squeeeeeeee!!! Blushing at Sasuke and thinking he's cool because he wants to kill someone and implying he is her dream for the future.

current self:  Love is love/onaji suki/the same love which means romantic love (Back then it was romantic love but it was shallow to the point she found him cool for wanting to kill someone ) but the feelings are different  ( her feelings are different they slowly grew mature since she came to know the real sasuke when he was with team7) you cannot  cut off the Sasuke you've loved ( part1 team seven sasuke ) no matter what and take it upon yourself to save Sasuke from the darkness. ( you cannot cut off/forget/get over the sasuke that you loved  ( the one who would die to save a loved one ) and you want to save him from his current self) Such a sweet/kind girl you are..
basically , the same as Naruto , she still sees sasuke romantically like her 12 year old self and she still wants him to be in her future ( hence the saving part ) but the way she hold her feelings and reasons are more mature. ( just like Naruto wanting the same dream but his feelings and reasons for pursuing that dream became more mature )

*Sasuke:  *

12 year old: he wanted to kill itachi to avenge his clan and restore it to it's former glory.

current self:already killed itachi and danzo and avenged his clan. Kakashi doesn't know why sasuke wants to be hokage now. He figured he never understood Sasuke ( which is completely true IMO ) but Kishi showed us Sasuke's reasons in the manga ( the Uchiha massacre happened because of the wrong way the kages handled the shinobi world and the village , he wants to change that ) He wants to protect AND change the world that itachi and his whole clan died for.Like his 12 year old self he still wants to restore the glory of his clan but his feelings about the matter and how he wants to do it changed.  


That's how the scene was presented.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

SoulFire! said:


> Kakashi was reiterating what was said in Iron Country and noting to himself (upon seeing how Sakura was handling again facing Sasuke after that last confrontation) that her feelings for Sasuke had indeed matured from the goofy tween crush of a twelve year old. Doesn't matter how it is interpreted, as it will be Sakura, herself, who will confirm the extent of her current feelings when that coming Sasuke/Sakura confrontation takes place.



Nowhere in any translation other than the viz one does it imply what you are saying. Please try and explain to me how "even if you still like him, it's probably a different feeling", "though you might still him, it's a different feeling now", or  would mean that Kakashi is saying that her feelings have matured. I think it's very convenient for you guys to say that that a "silly tween crush" would mature but that is most likely not the actual message Kakashi is trying to say.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 23, 2014)

These are the same people who argue that Naruto calling Sakura his girlfriend and his father making a mental comparison to his wife, confirming a parallel she brought up when they both died is somehow a "joke" and shouldn't be taken seriously. 

In a manga where the author loves parallels like drug addicts love their next high, probably the most direct parallel in the story (outside of destiny reincarnation bullshit) is treated as a joke and shouldn't be taken at face value.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> These are the same people who argue that Naruto calling Sakura his girlfriend and his father making a mental comparison to his wife, confirming a parallel she brought up when they both died is somehow a "joke" and shouldn't be taken seriously.
> 
> In a manga where the author loves parallels like drug addicts love their next high, probably the most direct parallel in the story (outside of destiny reincarnation bullshit) is treated as a joke and shouldn't be taken at face value.



The truly despicable thing is not the claims that a parallel shouldn't matter (I would agree), but the claims that Naruto poking fun of Sakura (implying that he would be misleading his dead dad and being an asshole to Sakura for no good reason) or joking (inappropriately) rather than staying true to the romantic feelings that he has for his long term companion. You have to make Naruto out to be a complete asshole to think up these retarded claims. Poor Naruto can't express his feelings for his long term companion without getting accused of doing a detestable act. It's better if he was serious.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> The truly despicable thing is not the claims that a parallel shouldn't matter (I would agree), but the claims that Naruto poking fun of Sakura (implying that he would be misleading his dead dad and being an asshole to Sakura for no good reason) or joking (inappropriately) rather than staying true to the romantic feelings that he has for his long term companion. You have to make Naruto out to be a complete asshole to think up these retarded claims. Poor Naruto can't express his feelings for his long term companion without getting accused of doing a detestable act. It's better if he was serious.



I am actually one of the members who thinks it's a direct hint that if not trolled later will most likely make NS canon.
But still , I think Naruto claiming she's his GF when she isn't , lying to his father is not really nice too.
Joking doesn't make him an asshole. It's true to his nature as someone who likes to rile people up in good nature from time to time. Like calling Tsunade " Old hag " and ticking her off by some of his words.

I think claiming falsely that Sakura is his GF in front of his father is worse than him actually joking about it.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> I am actually one of the members who thinks it's a direct hint that if not trolled later will most likely make NS canon.
> But still , I think Naruto claiming she's his GF when she isn't , lying to his father is not really nice too.
> Joking doesn't make him an asshole. It's true to his nature as someone who likes to rile people up in good nature from time to time. Like calling Tsunade " Old hag " and ticking her off by some of his words.
> 
> I think claiming falsely that Sakura is his GF in front of his father is worse than him actually joking about it.


You're under the assumption that if he's serious he's lying to him because it HAS to be that way, but it doesn't even look like he's lying.and nobody really knows what Naruto means by her being sorta his girlfriend.


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## Corvida (Jun 23, 2014)

[QUOTE





Elicit94 said:


> Nowhere in any translation other than the viz one does it imply what you are saying. Please try and explain to me how "even if you still like him, it's probably a different feeling", "though you might still him, it's a different feeling now", or  would mean that Kakashi is saying that her feelings have matured. I think it's very convenient for you guys to say that that a "silly tween crush" would mature but that is most likely not the actual message Kakashi is trying to say.



Convenient?

The fact that Kishi chose to portray Kakashi flashbacking explictiyl to the VERY first day he met the then 12 year old innocent   trio leaves Little message to understand.
Unless the introductory flashback  is an extra addition, too

The fact that he repeats the "saving Sasuke from darrrrkness as something Sakura still has brought upon herself Iron land" corniness seals the deal.



> You're under the assumption that if he's serious he's lying to him because it HAS to be that way, but it doesn't even look like he's lying.and nobody really knows what Naruto means by her being sorta his girlfriend


. 


It?s clear as clean w?ter-you prefer a delusional retard that purposedly misleads  dead dad  Naruto  than a Naruto that-gasp-might be lightly bantering. or teasing.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Convenient?
> 
> The fact that Kishi chose to portray Kakashi flashbacking explictiyl to the VERY first day he met the then 12 year old innocent   trio leaves Little message to understand.
> Unless the introductory flashback  is an extra addition, too
> ...



If he was trying to say that her feelings have matured from a "silly tween crush", he would obviously say it very directly (like in the Viz translation) . He wouldn't say "probably", "perhaps", "even if you still", or "different feeling". Do you understand now?


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## Tangle (Jun 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Nowhere in any translation other than the viz one does it imply what you are saying. Please try and explain to me how "even if you still like him, it's probably a different feeling", "though you might still him, it's a different feeling now", or  would mean that Kakashi is saying that her feelings have matured. I think it's very convenient for you guys to say that that a "silly tween crush" would mature but that is most likely not the actual message Kakashi is trying to say.



The word "if" is not in the raw.

"though it's the same love/like" is as accurate as it gets.


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## Kage (Jun 23, 2014)

No matter what translation is being desperately clinged to overall Kakashi's words imply _change_ not _growth._

Are recent events supporting the idea that Sakura will put up with Sasuke's crap no matter what because her love is so mature like that? because she's so kind?

Or is it only enforcing that saving him is a duty motivated more by her kindness rather than her love?

Can't wait till Sasuke makes her feel like shit for another 3 chapters straight to find out.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 23, 2014)

Tangle said:


> The word "if" is not in the raw.
> 
> "though it's the same love/like" is as accurate as it gets.


But if he's saying that it's the same love/like, how can you say that it has matured, regressed, or become platonic? So she would have the same feelings as she had before?


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## Tangle (Jun 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> But if he's saying that it's the same love/like, how can you say that it has matured, regressed, or become platonic? So she would have the same feelings as she had before?



"though it's the same love/like those feelings are something else/different"
*Kakashi looks back at a 12 year old Sakura who was childishly crushing on Sasuke who she newly teamed up with*
I would say that implies that her feelings are still of the romantic nature but it's clearly different from that time since she doesn't act that way at all anymore. Even *if* her feelings for him were to be platonic now they would still have matured considering how Sakura was acting in chapter 4. 

And, I do not for the record ship SS or try to justify it. I would prefer if Sakura was alone at the end.


----------



## shikamaru naraS (Jun 24, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> But if he's saying that it's the same love/like, how can you say that it has matured, regressed, or become platonic? So she would have the same feelings as she had before?



It's the same love with different feeling. It's romantic love with different feeling. It was shallow romatic love at chapter 4 and it slowly her feelings changed from shallow to mature during part1 and till now. I already explained that in my post about kakashi's FB. The comparison is between chapter4 team seven and current selves you can't debate that it's a fact.

Naruto knows quite well Sakura is not his GF nor is she sorta GF and him lying to his father is much worse than him being himself and joking to rile Sakura up in good nature.

Sorta GF can only mean what they have is romantic but they not offecially together. Sakura was called a liar for claiming she has romantic feelings for Naruto barely a month ago manga time. And she also thought of sasuke as the one she loves barely two days ago. Naruto knows she's not his GF nor sorta GF. Now if he said he always wanted her as GF that would have showed his intrest without him lying to his father if he actually is meant to be serious.  But if it's a joke it actually shows his nature side of loving to rile Sakura up in good nature just like he does with tsunade.


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 24, 2014)

> Naruto knows quite well Sakura is not his GF nor is she sorta GF and him lying to his father is much worse than him being himself and joking to rile Sakura up in good nature.
> 
> Sorta GF can only mean what they have is romantic but they not offecially together. Sakura was called a liar for claiming she has romantic feelings for Naruto barely a month ago manga time. And she also thought of sasuke as the one she loves barely two days ago. Naruto knows she's not his GF nor sorta GF. Now if he said he always wanted her as GF that would have showed his intrest without him lying to his father if he actually is meant to be serious.  But if it's a joke it actually shows his nature side of loving to rile Sakura up in good nature just like he does with tsunade.



The actual fuck? Riling her up in good nature? You mean riling her up just to be an asshole which is completely out of character? He looks quite serious, so obviously he isn't joking. He has never riled her up intentionally, and he wouldn't do so now. Can people just please stop with this bullshit?


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 24, 2014)

And it would also be bad taste to joke about that with Hinata nearby......

Naruto got onto Sakura for messing around with feelings during her fake confession, so I highly doubt Naruto would be hypocritical since he usually does practice what he preaches.

But alas, acknowledging a character's feelings does not mean it will happen nor support it.  It is called being neutral, people!




Kage said:


> No matter what translation is being desperately clinged to overall Kakashi's words imply _change_ not _growth._
> 
> Are recent events supporting the idea that Sakura will put up with Sasuke's crap no matter what because her love is so mature like that? because she's so kind?
> 
> ...



This right here!!!!


----------



## Corvida (Jun 24, 2014)

> Kage said:
> 
> 
> > No matter what translation is being desperately clinged to overall Kakashi's words imply _change_ not _growth._
> ...


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 24, 2014)

Yeah, and Kakashi still placed it on past tense and implied it was different not growing!  The possibility is also there with how it is worded by givin g it a 50/50 chance.

Especially when her self at the time was not even talking to Sasuke but Naruto about how he healed Kakashi's eye.

Kakashi's main complaints for Sakura after claiming her dreams and during the bell test that girls were more interested in romance instead of ninjutsu and how she always looked at Sasuke but never Naruto!

You cannot edit out those words.

Although, it could go either way with whether Sakura will cling onto those lingering feelings for Sasuke or let them regress since she is not happy with Sasuke downplaying her despite him being back.

And no, this does not mean she is going to shag with Naruto either.


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## Corvida (Jun 24, 2014)

> Fruits Basket Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, and Kakashi still placed it on past tense and implied it was different not growing! [
> ...


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 24, 2014)

You are doing it again by disregarding the implications on Kakashi's statement which at least give it a 50/50 chance that it could go either way.

"Past tense and different"....and ending it by the reason she is doing it is because she is a kind girl rather because she is a girl in love (even though I do think she has lingering feelings for Sasuke).

I just merely believe they are not in the same romantic intensity when she confessed to him back in part 1 where supposedly her crush developed into real love at that time.

But at last, only a possibility not a fact for now.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 24, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Memo to me-never, but never pester Sakura-chan again or she reduce me to a stain!



Did you forget what we already went through?

The use of the word "pester" here means that he wasn't being deliberate and that it doesn't have anything to do with the comment. 

He interrupted Sakura by answering the question meant for her. 

It's the same with  and "turn on" (as in get her angry). 

The only one that can imply deliberation (if you're desperate) is "poke fun", which is the one that is most likely to be wrong. 

Oh, and the viz translation:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Absolutely nothing that implies such absurdity.


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## Corvida (Jun 24, 2014)

> Did you forget what we already went through?[




How can I-we made Humpty Dumpty proud!!!! I assasimated English!!!!!  You bended language like Beckham! 



> The use of the word "pester" here means that he wasn't being deliberate and that it doesn't have anything to do with the comment.




And then you mar it all with the very lovely list of synonisms of the verb_ pest _you include for my English formation. 
 "badger, hound, harass, plague, annoy, bother, trouble, keep after, persecute, torment, bedevil, harry, worry, beleaguer, nag, hassle, bug "

:amazed

  The use of the verb  has ALL to do with the unfortunate comment and our Messiah mock penitential mode-Naruto perfectly knows by now what makes Sakura-chan explode, and boy, he was hammered.Without mercy As he never learns..





> He interrupted Sakura by answering the question meant for her.



You forget a Little detail.He didnt told the truth.

As I already told you, answering for her was only  offense number one.Sakura had  already  her vader mask face then.

Offence number  two was the Gf bomb.

Bamf- Headbutt of hell.




> It's the same with  and "turn on" (as in get her angry).
> 
> The only one that can imply deliberation (if you're desperate) is "poke fun", which is the one that is most likely to be wrong.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


And that?s when I told you I liked the Viz translation very much, as it matched  perfectly with the Spanish Planeta dagostini one, with Naruto vowing to  never, never, *"incordiar*" Sakura again.

Which leads us to the  negative connotations of the pester synonisms again.


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## Hitt (Jun 24, 2014)

Kage said:


> No matter what translation is being desperately clinged to overall Kakashi's words imply _change_ not _growth._
> 
> Are recent events supporting the idea that Sakura will put up with Sasuke's crap no matter what because her love is so mature like that? because she's so kind?
> 
> ...



Clinging to whatever translation you find most convenient or not, (nevermind the same people who bashed Viz before with translations now want to embrace it...) Sasuke has shown unambiguously how he feels about her, _repeatedly_.

That is, no feeling at all.  He doesn't even respect her as a comrade at this point, much less a freaking lover.  Not to mention Sasuke has shown no romantic interests at all anyway.

This pairing was murdered long ago, when Sasuke attempted it on her.  Sasuke now is just doing his best part to continue to bludgeon the dead horse.


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## Kage (Jun 24, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Yeah, and Kakashi still placed it on past tense and implied it was different not growing!  The possibility is also there with how it is worded by givin g it a 50/50 chance.





Hitt said:


> Clinging to whatever translation you find most convenient or not, (nevermind the same people who bashed Viz before with translations now want to embrace it...) Sasuke has shown unambiguously how he feels about her, _repeatedly_.


Here's the thing, unlike Hinata and even Naruto, confirmation of Sakura's "love" for Sasuke *always* comes with a catch.


She still loves him but she has to kill him.
She still loves him but he's not a great guy.
She still loves him but she doesn't trust him.
She still loves him but it's a different feeling.

There is too much focus on the former (she loves him) and a complete disregard for what follows. It's straight up throwing out context.

How could feelings that are far from being nurtured have matured? Sakura didn't understand Sasuke when she first confessed to him and she understands even less now. It isn't even important she know the truth about the massacre this far into the story.

The negative aspects of this pairing are ignored (if not flat out denied) in favor of expecting Sasuke's redemption to "fix" what is broken. Relying on his redemption to instantly insert an interest he's never had in her before ontop of validating and even excusing Sakura's suffering is basically the same as counting on Kishi's wretched characterization (of his heroine especially) and his questionable portrayal of bonds. 

Granted, it's only because of the subpar writing that a scenario where Sakura's nonsensical feelings endure to get a tru lub payoff is even 1% possible.

Objectively, SS is the worst possible outcome for endgame pair with how it's been presented in canon if it's meant to be sympathetic and believable. The fact that this even needs to be disputed frightens and saddens me.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 24, 2014)

Corvida said:


> How can I-we made Humpty Dumpty proud!!!! I assasimated English!!!!!  You bended language like Beckham!


I did not? NONE OF THE SYNONYMS you gave me even imply deliberation. 



> And that?s when I told you I liked the Viz translation very much, as it matched  perfectly with the Spanish Planeta dagostini one, with Naruto vowing to  never, never, *"incordiar*" Sakura again.
> 
> Which leads us to the  negative connotations of the pester synonisms again.


How does the viz translation support your interpretation? It cements the fact that his comment had nothing to do with the girlfriend comment.


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## Corvida (Jun 24, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BatoKusanagi (Jun 24, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> It's not that they are now platonic... it's just that they are regressing. If Kakashi wanted to say that her love has matured, he would have said that a long time ago. He has already acknowledged that Sakura wanted to kill Sasuke because of true love back in the Kage Summit arc, so if he's now making guesses on her changing feelings he can only suspect that they have regressed.


Regressing? You mean to her part 1 fangirling? And why would Kakashi be making guesses about Sakura's feelings when he's been there to see Sakura love Sasuke for the last 3 years? How could he see Sakura still love Sasuke after he tried to kill her and then say that just in the last few weeks Sakura's feelings have changed (I assume you think they changed to platonc love)? And because of what exactly? It just doesn't make any logical sense that Kakashi would think that. And wouldn't Naruto realize before Kakashi? I mean, I'm told that Naruto and Sakura spend _so much_ time together and know each other so well; I would've expected Naruto to have said something first. Maybe also being hopeful that his love interest is finally going to be available... Instead in 469 when Sakura was confessing he could only think about Sakura with Sasuke and in 474 he stated, more than once,that Sakura loves Sasuke.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> takL talks in a strange manner due to English not being his first language but what I gather is that it can be taken as being in the past tense or present tense.


Actually takl states that it could be either present *perfect* or the past *progressive* (not just past or present), both of which imply continuos action and not something that only used to be true in the past. And checking the translations thread, the second comment of takl you posted was in response to a comment with another translation which used precisely the past tense ('used to love' to be precise), and other posters asking him if that part was in the past tense; the answer was no it's not and then he explains that it could be either 'Sasuke who sakura was loving' (past progressive) or 'Sasuke who sakura has loved/been fond of' (present perfect). And in another comment he says: 


> Kakashi's already stated sakura loves sasuke differently than when she was little and Sasuke was an idol. so no point to take the 'suite ita' as if she doesn't anymore.


Doesn't seem like takl supports the past tense interpretation (loved =/='used to love') or at the very least thinks that just because Sakura *liked* Sasuke doesn't mean she doesn't anymore.
Other trans: "you still love him, but on a totally different level" (Viz)
"you still have feelings for the one who tried to take your life" (MS)
Even MP that confused so many: "you *still*" have feelings for the one who tried to kill you".


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## Elicit94 (Jun 24, 2014)

Corvida said:


> .
> 1-ask (someone) repeatedly and annoyingly for something
> 2-pursue relentlessly
> 3- subject to aggressive pressure
> ...


It seems like it's hard for you to understand where I'm coming from.

If he's pestering her, he wouldn't say that she is sort of his girlfriend to rile her up. He has never intentionally said or done anything for the sole purpose of annoying her.

When he asks her for a date, he does it because HE WANTS TO GO ON A DATE.

When he acts perverted in front her, he does it because HE JUST FEELS LIKE BEING A PERVERT. He doesn't consider the consequences. 

It's the same thing when his father asks him if she is his girlfriend, he wants consider her his girlfriend even if it might annoy her. He might be aware that saying that can rile her up, but he considers her his girlfriend because that's how he feels. He's pestering her, but not deliberately.  

Now, even if what you are saying is correct, he would still be joking because he has a continued romantic interest in Sakura, meaning that he currently does not feel any romantic feelings for Hinata and is still obviously hopeful that he can be in a relationship with Sakura. It still boils down to the same thing. It's pointless debating whether or not it's a joke. He's obviously still in love with Sakura.



BatoKusanagi said:


> Regressing? You mean to her part 1 fangirling? And why would Kakashi be making guesses about Sakura's feelings when he's been there to see Sakura love Sasuke for the last 3 years? How could he see Sakura still love Sasuke after he tried to kill her and then say that just in the last few weeks Sakura's feelings have changed (I assume you think they changed to platonc love)? And because of what exactly? It just doesn't make any logical sense that Kakashi would think that. And wouldn't Naruto realize before Kakashi? I mean, I'm told that Naruto and Sakura spend _so much_ time together and know each other so well; I would've expected Naruto to have said something first. Maybe also being hopeful that his love interest is finally going to be available... Instead in 469 when Sakura was confessing he could only think about Sakura with Sasuke and in 474 he stated, more than once,that Sakura loves Sasuke..


He's either guessing that her feelings have changed or he's completely sure of it. 

"I *reckon* your feelings have changed since that time" (MP)

"And Sakura... *perhaps* your feelings for Sasuke now differ from that back then" (Takl's translation"

"I *bet *your feelings have changed since that time" (Viz)

"And Sakura... I'm * sure* your feelings have changed since that time" (MS)

Also, I'm not thinking that her feelings are now platonic. I'm thinking that her romantic feelings are fading. Even if her feelings have matured the romantic aspect of it has regressed significantly.


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## ch1p (Jun 25, 2014)

Tangle said:


> He is comparing her feelings to the mere silly crush she had on Sasuke in chapter 4, ofc they have matured since then.





Corvida said:


> Kakashi is flashbacking  to the day he met his tream of then  pre ninja and pre missions.innocent shool children   How it doesnt make sense?Specially as he?s repeating verbatim what was said on Iron land country,  some weeks before manga time.





SoulFire! said:


> Kakashi was reiterating what was said in Iron Country and noting to himself (upon seeing how Sakura was handling again facing Sasuke after that last confrontation) that her feelings for Sasuke had indeed matured from the goofy tween crush of a twelve year old.





BatoKusanagi said:


> Regressing? You mean to her part 1 fangirling? And why would Kakashi be making guesses about Sakura's feelings when he's been there to see Sakura love Sasuke for the last 3 years? How could he see Sakura still love Sasuke after he tried to kill her and then say that just in the last few weeks Sakura's feelings have changed (I assume you think they changed to platonc love)? And because of what exactly? It just doesn't make any logical sense that Kakashi would think that. And wouldn't Naruto realize before Kakashi? I mean, I'm told that Naruto and Sakura spend _so much_ time together and know each other so well; I would've expected Naruto to have said something first. Maybe also being hopeful that his love interest is finally going to be available... Instead in 469 when Sakura was confessing he could only think about Sakura with Sasuke and in 474 he stated, more than once,that Sakura loves Sasuke.
> 
> 
> Actually takl states that it could be either present *perfect* or the past *progressive* (not just past or present), both of which imply continuos action and not something that only used to be true in the past. And checking the translations thread, the second comment of takl you posted was in response to a comment with another translation which used precisely the past tense ('used to love' to be precise), and other posters asking him if that part was in the past tense; the answer was no it's not and then he explains that it could be either 'Sasuke who sakura was loving' (past progressive) or 'Sasuke who sakura has loved/been fond of' (present perfect). And in another comment he says:
> ...



This. As _*several*_ translators have already said. Sakura still loves Sasuke, despite everything, and her feelings have matured since chapter 4. Including takl, whose opinion on the feel of the script, no matter if there are posters here attempting to twist his others into something else.

NarSak is pandering to 'ambiguous' and 'up to discussion', but there is no such thing. Just desperate attempts at saving the NarSak ship, in denial that it has already hit rock bottom ever since the fake confession.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This. As _*several*_ translators have already said. Sakura still loves Sasuke, despite everything, and her feelings have matured since chapter 4. Including takl, whose opinion on the feel of the script, no matter if there are posters here attempting to twist his others into something else.
> 
> NarSak is pandering to 'ambiguous' and 'up to discussion', but there is no such thing. Just desperate attempts at saving the NarSak ship, in denial that it has already hit rock bottom ever since the fake confession.


It's better if her feelings are fading. SasuSaku is pretty much a crack pairing at this point and it would be retarded for Kishi to write it now.  It has like nothing going for it compared to NS and NH, and should be removed from discussion due to the idea of it happening being completely absurd.


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## Corvida (Jun 25, 2014)

> [[ seems like it's hard for you to understand where I'm coming from


.

Au contraire-you?re like contaminated mountain water.Lets analize your moving portrait of love martyr Nardo



> If he's pestering her, he wouldn't say that she is sort of his girlfriend to rile her up. He has never intentionally said or done anything for the sole purpose of annoying her.
> 
> When he asks her for a date, he does it because *HE WANTS *TO GO ON A DATE.
> 
> ...



He wants

He feels like 
he doesnt consider

he might rile her-pfffffffff

Holy Narut?n de Galiana-do you know what you?re picturing here?





> . He's pestering her, but not deliberately.



You?re described just the contrary, and even a more deliberate punk than you intended, like a part one Naruto nightmare version.




> Now, even if what you are saying is correct, he would still be joking because he has a continued romantic interest in Sakura, meaning that he currently does not feel any romantic feelings for Hinata and is still obviously hopeful that he can be in a relationship with Sakura. It still boils down to the same thing. It's pointless debating whether or not it's a joke. He's obviously still in love with Sakura


.
 At least, you admitted the truth-he was  joking there. and as you explain so movingly...because he felt like it  The mere fact of equating his romantic interest to a brain fart, a running gag, something that riles Sakura up like, peeing in front  of a lady, peeking in a bathhouse or deliberately annoying her is enough to me.And no, the debating whether or not it?s a joke at this point of the manga after the Iron land  fiasco scene, Sakura?s reaction and oh wait-Hero?s expected  confession tells a lot.

Added bonus.No more and not less.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This. As _*several*_ translators have already said. Sakura still loves Sasuke, despite everything, and her feelings have matured since chapter 4. Including takl, whose opinion on the feel of the script, no matter if there are posters here attempting to twist his others into something else.
> 
> NarSak is pandering to 'ambiguous' and 'up to discussion', but there is no such thing. Just desperate attempts at saving the NarSak ship, in denial that it has already hit rock bottom ever since the fake confession.



The irony is fucking hilarious.

You have zero credibility in telling someone they're in 'denial" when you genuinely believe two characters who have tried to kill each other and one side doesn't even care about said person as a human being, that they somehow belong in a romantic relationship. 

You are the last person who should talk about being in denial.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 25, 2014)

The fact that SS is still being discussed in this thread is insulting. Honestly, at this point, only NH/NS, should be discussed due to Sasuke torpedoing this ship the moment he allowed Kakashi and Sakura to die and wasn't going to save them.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This. As _*several*_ translators have already said. Sakura still loves Sasuke, despite everything, and her feelings have matured since chapter 4. Including takl, whose opinion on the feel of the script, no matter if there are posters here attempting to twist his others into something else.


Don't you mean: Sakura still loves Sasuke in _Kakashi's opinion_ and its _Kakashi's opinion_ that those feelings have matured(and even then its stated directly in the dialogue that hes just guessing).

I want to see Sakura's opinion on the matter...this scene came off as rather whimsical to me



> NarSak is pandering to 'ambiguous' and 'up to discussion', but there is no such thing. Just desperate attempts at saving the NarSak ship, in denial that it has already hit rock bottom ever since the fake confession.


I'm apparently disgusting and transparent for wanting actual quality discussion with someone who can actually debate with some objectivity...yet here you are with this kind of arrogant bullshit. Thanks for being a shining example of how low quality the competition has become.


----------



## Chabal (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, it's "NarSak" that has hit rock bottom. Why of course. Not a pairing that had:

-two murder attempts that were only thwarted by third parties (including one NaruSaku save scene which was of course 100% platonic not romantic didn't mean anything, it's a far more serious romantic moment to have the guy lift the girl by the throat and nearly cut her jugular)
-at least three instances of the guy letting the girl die without giving a damn (oh but it's _ambiguous_ this time, you have to look underneath the underneath and ignore context clues, characterization and just plain common sense to make this mess work)
-constant focus on the negative effects the pairing has on the girl (she cries, she gets depressed, she doesn't reply anything to his words that crush her confidence and acts like a submissive child, she doesn't trust him, she doesn't support his goal, she admits she can't do or say anything to him)

How can anybody have the gall to tout that as satisfying romantic development and bash NaruSaku for being "dead" because of the fake confession? There's a limit to hypocrisy and arrogant irrationality.


----------



## shikamaru naraS (Jun 25, 2014)

Anyone who says any pairing is dead at this point is arrogant. As long as one side of the pairing is still romantically interested then Kishi can do anything with it.

Non of the three is dead. Naruto still likes Sakura as far as we know until stated otherwise , Sakura still loves sasuke and Hinata still loves Naruto.

I think everyone should just stop being arrogant and actually debate instead of bashing pairings or fans. That being said I think NS is the most likely right now but believe me Kishi can do one thing , just one thing and he can fix or kill any of those pairings and that includes the one you think is beyond repair or "dead".


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

Corvida said:


> He wants
> 
> He feels like
> he doesnt consider
> ...



It's like you are unable to comprehend that he doesn't do things for the sole purpose of riling her up. You must be crazy to think that he would suddenly decide to lie to his dead dad, misleading him... for the purpose of joking, asking to get hit? While his face is serious?



> At least, you admitted the truth-he was  joking there. and as you explain so movingly...because he felt like it  The mere fact of equating his romantic interest to a brain fart, a running gag, something that riles Sakura up like, peeing in front  of a lady, peeking in a bathhouse or deliberately annoying her is enough to me.And no, the debating whether or not it?s a joke at this point of the manga after the Iron land  fiasco scene, Sakura?s reaction and oh wait-Hero?s expected  confession tells a lot.
> 
> Added bonus.No more and not less.


I'm not conceding to anything, you are the one crazy enough to believe this bullshit even after I proved that his comment in 632 has nothing to do with his girlfriend comment. I think the main problem with people that spout your bullshit is that they try to make it out as something that doesn't prove a continued affection for Sakura even though it's quite the contrary even in their case.


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## ch1p (Jun 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> It's better if her feelings are fading.



What's "better" (in your opinion), isn't the reality of things.



> SasuSaku is pretty much a crack pairing at this point and it would be retarded for Kishi to write it now. It has like nothing going for it compared to NS and NH, and should be removed from discussion due to the idea of it happening being completely absurd.





BankaiLegend3135 said:


> The irony is fucking hilarious. You have zero credibility in telling someone they're in 'denial" when you genuinely believe two characters who have tried to kill each other and one side doesn't even care about said person as a human being, that they somehow belong in a romantic relationship. You are the last person who should talk about being in denial.





ShadowFox88 said:


> The fact that SS is still being discussed in this thread is insulting. Honestly, at this point, only NH/NS, should be discussed due to Sasuke torpedoing this ship the moment he allowed Kakashi and Sakura to die and wasn't going to save them.





Chabal said:


> Yes, it's "NarSak" that has hit rock bottom. Why of course. Not a pairing that had:
> 
> -two murder attempts that were only thwarted by third parties (including one NaruSaku save scene which was of course 100% platonic not romantic didn't mean anything, it's a far more serious romantic moment to have the guy lift the girl by the throat and nearly cut her jugular)
> -at least three instances of the guy letting the girl die without giving a damn (oh but it's _ambiguous_ this time, you have to look underneath the underneath and ignore context clues, characterization and just plain common sense to make this mess work)
> ...



Such defensiveness. 

What has all of that have to do with the fact that Kakashi said that Sakura still loves Sasuke? Nothing. How does that even begin to counter it? Oh, it doesn't. So you attempt to slight the opposite pairing to hide the flaws of your own. Which is: Sakura doesn't love Naruto, even at the end of all things, and after everything she has been through. 

As usual, throwing some sand to confuse the enemies, or then go all in and hide your head inside the sand itself. Then you're surprised when Hinata is relevant or when Sakura wonders about 'Sasuke-kun' yet again.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Don't you mean: Sakura still loves Sasuke in _Kakashi's opinion_ and its _Kakashi's opinion_ that those feelings have matured(and even then its stated directly in the dialogue that hes just guessing).



No, I don't mean that. See, contrarily to you, I have not forgotten chapter 540, where Sakura herself undoubtly implies she loves Sasuke and him alone.



> I want to see Sakura's opinion on the matter...this scene came off as rather whimsical to me







> I'm apparently disgusting and transparent for wanting actual quality discussion with someone who can actually debate with some objectivity...yet here you are with this kind of arrogant bullshit. Thanks for being a shining example of how low quality the competition has become.



The fact is, you were being slightful towards another poster by saying you "missed" someone else instead of here. You deserved that neg. You can neg back. Nobody cares but your rep bar.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> What's "better" (in your opinion), isn't the reality of things.


Why are you trying to state your opinion as absolute fact? Then you try and stab at NaruSaku when nobody is currently discussing anything that has to do with Sakura's feelings for Naruto. Nobody is saying that if her feelings for Sasuke are now platonic or regressed she is in love with Naruto or is going to fall in love with him. You are the one that is starting this crap because YOU KNOW that your pairing is complete shit and not potentially bound to happen by anything that is set in the story. If the only thing your pairing has going for it is a continued affection (that's probably gone), than obviously Kishimoto will not write it and would prefer to go with the opposite pairing that has much more positive development (NaruSaku) than a shitty pairing like SasuSaku.


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## ch1p (Jun 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why are you trying to state your opinion as absolute fact?



That's because it's *fact*. Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. That is what Kakashi said in 675. That is what is implied by Sakura in 540. That is what is implied by Karin in 483. That is what Naruto and Sai said in 474. That is what was said by Kishi somewhere in between two of these chapters.

Saying the translations are "up to discussion" is wrong, because it's not up to discussion. Your repetitive drivel about how SS is this or that is irrelevant, because the narrative doesn't give a darn about it since Sakura loves Sasuke despite him trying to kill her.

I read the last 10 pages during coffee break. I'm pretty sure Sakura -> Naruto was spoken about somewhere in there, but if you don't want to talk about it then alright. Regarding the personal attack bulshit, as they're the same as they've always been. I've had enough of reading that pettyness in the last ten pages anyway.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's because it's *fact*. Sakura is in love with Sasuke and him alone. That is what Kakashi said in 675. That is what is implied by Sakura in 540. That is what is implied by Karin in 483. That is what Naruto and Sai said in 474. That is what was said by Kishi somewhere in between two of these chapters.


Yes, she obviously still likes him, but the feelings behind the affection are not the same and the only way you can say that she likes him the exact same way as in chapter 181 is if you disregard all the negative SS development and the complete absence of Sasuke in her life up until this point. If he is saying that it's the same love (romantic affection), but a different feeling, it can only mean that her romantic feelings have regressed unless he stated that it's on a totally different level like the viz translation (which is wrong).

The translations are very much up for discussion, whether you like it or not.


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## Njaa (Jun 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> It's like you are unable to comprehend that he doesn't do things for the sole purpose of riling her up. You must be crazy to think that he would *suddenly decide to lie to his dead dad*, misleading him... for the purpose of joking, asking to get hit? While his face is serious?



But that is *exactly* what he did. 
Is Sakura his gf? no and right there off the bat he's already lying to dead dad.

Everything else is actually within character. He may not have done it solely to rile her up but given his reaction the next chapter, he knows what pisses her off. Not to mention Naruto has a habit of saying things to people, while not maliciously, that could easily be seen as rude. Most obvious example of this is how he tends to give people nicknames, even those that have seniority over him, it's not done out of malice or disrespect but is just a quirk he has.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

Njaa said:


> But that is *exactly* what he did.
> Is Sakura his gf? no and right there off the bat he's already lying to dead dad.
> 
> Everything else is actually within character. He may not have done it solely to rile her up but given his reaction the next chapter, he knows what pisses her off. Not to mention Naruto has a habit of saying things to people, while not maliciously, that could easily be seen as rude. Most obvious example of this is how he tends to give people nicknames, even those that have seniority over him, it's not done out of malice or disrespect but is just a quirk he has.



He said that she is "sorta, something like" his girlfriend which probably means he thinks she is at least starting to like him. He said that she was lying to herself during her confession but it would be strange if he didn't consider that she may have something for him after that. He doesn't have to be delusional to say that she can kinda be considered his girlfriend if he's so hopeful that she can reciprocate his feelings.

If he's not doing it solely to rile her up, that can only mean that he said that she is sorta his girlfriend because that's how he feels even if he knows it might rile her up. It's what makes the most sense considering the fact that he was legitimately thinking about what to say to his dad.


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## Njaa (Jun 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> He said that she is "sorta, something like" his girlfriend which probably means he thinks she is at least starting to like him. He said that she was lying to herself during her confession but it would be strange if he didn't consider that she may have something for him after that. He doesn't have to be delusional to say that she can kinda be considered his girlfriend if he's so hopeful that she can reciprocate his feelings.



None of those are true either, but more importantly nowhere is it stated that Sakura sees him or Naruto thinks she sees him like that. It's all conjecture that the manga doesn't even imply. 



> If he's not doing it solely to rile her up, that can only mean that he said that she is sorta his girlfriend because that's how he feels even if he knows it might rile her up. It's what makes the most sense considering the fact that he was legitimately thinking about what to say to his dad.



"I hate people who lie to themselves" straight from the horse's mouth. He never said "i wish" or "i hope she'll be my gf", he said she sorta was which isn't true. While he might still have a thing for Sakura, i don't think it's quite the same as it once was.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 25, 2014)

Njaa said:


> None of those are true either, but more importantly nowhere is it stated that Sakura sees him or Naruto thinks she sees him like that. It's all conjecture that the manga doesn't even imply.


But clearly he was thinking back to something that happened between them or something about their relationship that would lead him to his response. 



> "I hate people who lie to themselves" straight from the horse's mouth. He never said "i wish" or "i hope she'll be my gf", he said she sorta was which isn't true. While he might still have a thing for Sakura, i don't think it's quite the same as it once was.


Naruto was confirmed to be deeply in love with Sakura back in the Kage Summit arc. This is not debatable, because of Naruto indirectly telling Sai that he is in love with her here:



Any arguments that point to his feelings not being as strong as they used to be are just baseless conjecture, and there is nothing in the story that can imply that his feelings have faded anyway (especially from the time of that flashback until Sai declaring that Naruto is in love with Sakura), unlike with Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. If Kishimoto wanted his main character to fall in love with someone else, it would have already been clear this late in this story that he's falling for someone else and 631 would have never happened if he was by chance falling for Hinata.


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## Njaa (Jun 25, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> But clearly he was thinking back to something that happened between them or something about their relationship that would lead him to his response.



So what you're saying is this development happened off-panel?



> Naruto was confirmed to be deeply in love with Sakura back in the Kage Summit arc. This is not debatable, because of Naruto indirectly telling Sai that he is in love with her here:
> 
> 
> 
> Any arguments that point to his feelings not being as strong as they used to be are just baseless conjecture, and there is nothing in the story that can imply that his feelings have faded anyway (especially from the time of that flashback until Sai declaring that Naruto is in love with Sakura), unlike with Sakura's feelings for Sasuke. If Kishimoto wanted his main character to fall in love with someone else, it would have already been clear this late in this story that he's falling for someone else and 631 would have never happened if he was by chance falling for Hinata.



For one thing Sai's flashback was something that took part earlier on in part two. Far more importantly though, where is this love he has when he's thinking about his mother's parting words?




Surely he would've added a caveat for Sakura like he did for Sasuke. Sakura for a girl like his mother and Sasuke as a friend.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 25, 2014)

I seriously think some of you don't realize how much of an asshole Naruto would be if he actually was joking. Which he wasn't...

If he's the type to joke about a girl who's not into him to his dead father who he had zero reasons to lie too then that speaks volumes.

Hinata could do better.


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## Rinoa (Jun 25, 2014)

I will say this again, keep the discussion regarding to the arguments and not to attack people, this thread is starting to set foot on the line again for a while now and don't forget that there's no warnings in here.
The warnings are in the and quite clear.
Kenneth and i are tired of warning about this. Put aside the excessive attitude, irony and personal attacks if you wanna keep a debate in here without leading to trouble.
Any questions contact us, any post you find it incorrect report.

Keep a good debate.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 26, 2014)

Njaa said:


> So what you're saying is this development happened off-panel?


Not necessarily. Naruto hasn't had any time to hang out with Sakura after the Kage Summit arc, unless it happened while they were on their way back to Konoha after the whole Sasuke ordeal.



> For one thing Sai's flashback was something that took part earlier on in part two. Far more importantly though, where is this love he has when he's thinking about his mother's parting words?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter if Sai's flashback took place earlier in part two, because there's nothing in the story (at least what's been shown) that could have happened between the time of that flashback and Sai's declaration that can change his feelings for Sakura. Logically, if something points to his feelings still being as strong before (Sai's observation of Naruto taking the promise as a huge burden), then what was established earlier is still going to be the same. Also, his feelings for Sakura never faded when he left with Jiraiya for 2 & a half years, and perhaps a few months after he came back was when he indirectly said that he's in love with Sakura. It's pointless to use time as a measurement here. 

I don't think Kishimoto would want to show Naruto thinking about Sakura as a girl like his mother for the sake of pairing drama. If he thought about Sakura it would be like he's confirming NS way too soon. There's also the fact that Kishimoto has said that he wanted to give Hinata "a chance" and perhaps try to please the rabid Hinata fandom from Jump Festa 2010.


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## Corvida (Jun 26, 2014)

> [/QUO51051764]It's like you are unable to comprehend that he doesn't do things for the sole purpose of riling her up.


 As you  repeated ad nauseam.......he simply doesnt care!!!!!! Naruto must do what Naruto must do even if how did you put it,? Sakura riles up a litle.

The pic I inserted of the honey badger was deleted but that?s the image of Naruto you were giving.



> You must be crazy to think that he would suddenly decide to lie to his dead dad, misleading him... for the purpose of joking, asking to get hit? While his face is serious?



Was he telling him the truth?
Does, he as you eloquently put it, really care if he  is hit or not, even if he is shown in mock fearful  penitence vowing never never  to pest Sakura-tchann again?




> I'm not conceding to anything, you are the one crazy enough to believe this bullshit even after I proved that his comment in 632 has nothing to do with his girlfriend comment. I think the main problem with people that spout your bullshit is that they try to make it out as something that doesn't prove a continued affection for Sakura even though it's quite the contrary even in their case.



But you coudnt even prove  that the Word pester and its synonyms always imply  unintentional motives , and  Much less that Naruto wasnt  straightly  referring to his unfortunate girfriend comment-he knows what riles Sakura up, has been hulksmashed the previous chapter for misleading dead dad as in the best part 1 times and vows never, but never pester Sakura again........


Are you bactracking to the delusional moron Naruto again instead to the teasing-joking Naruto?


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> No, I don't mean that. See, contrarily to you, I have not forgotten chapter 540, where Sakura herself undoubtly implies she loves Sasuke and him alone.


Even if I was one to forget things, I wouldn't forget chapter 540 considering how much its brought up here. For once though, I'll pass the baton to Kage for a moment:



Kage said:


> Here's the thing, unlike Hinata and even Naruto, confirmation of Sakura's "love" for Sasuke *always* comes with a catch.
> 
> 
> She still loves him but she has to kill him.
> ...




I think you missed how what I said there was partly me playing off the whole "what third parties say matters little/their view is distorted" angle that keeps being brought up in regards to the Sai flashback. The implication is there sure and my stance on the subject which I've said here multiple times, at least one of which was during a debate with you, is that Sakura's feelings still linger but are fading. While you can continue to remind people that 540 was around a day ago in the Naruverse, Iron Country was only around a month to two months ago(maybe even shorter than that...Kishi has a problem with informing readers of the passage of time). 




> The fact is, you were being slightful towards another poster by saying you "missed" someone else instead of here. You deserved that neg. You can neg back. Nobody cares but your rep bar.


I never said it wasn't deserved. It wasn't my intention to be disrespectful to SoulFire but in retrospect it was a poor choice to include it. I did find the comment with it amusing though, coming from you.


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## ch1p (Jun 26, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Yes, she obviously still likes him, but the feelings behind the affection are not the same and the only way you can say that she likes him the exact same way as in chapter 181 is if you disregard all the negative SS development and the complete absence of Sasuke in her life up until this point. If he is saying that it's the same love (romantic affection), but a different feeling, it can only mean that her romantic feelings have regressed unless he stated that it's on a totally different level like the viz translation (which is wrong).



That's nice, but the feelings being compared are chapter 4 and chapter 675, not chapter 181 and 675.



> The translations are very much up for discussion, whether you like it or not.



They're not up to discussion.



Elicit94 said:


> He said that she is "sorta, something like" his girlfriend which probably means he thinks she is at least starting to like him. He said that she was lying to herself during her confession but it would be strange if he didn't consider that she may have something for him after that. He doesn't have to be delusional to say that she can kinda be considered his girlfriend if he's so hopeful that she can reciprocate his feelings.
> 
> If he's not doing it solely to rile her up, that can only mean that he said that she is sorta his girlfriend because that's how he feels even if he knows it might rile her up. It's what makes the most sense considering the fact that he was legitimately thinking about what to say to his dad.



But Sakura isn't his 'sorta of girlfriend' either. Naruto's lying, whether he genuinely believes what he says or not. And hif he's serious, then he's a hypocrite because he hates people who lie to themselves.

The fact is Naruto isn't the most respecful person in canon. For example, he drew feces on the Hokage's faces when he was 12 to gather attention. One of these Hokages being his role model even back then, mind you. His first reaction to Minato was punch him as well, angry at him or not.

Naruto isn't that wholesome. Riling up people to gather attention is his standard behaviour is consistent. He could have lied in front of Minato, if that amused him. There is no reason for you to think he wouldn't say such a thing in front of him, father or not. That's just what kind of character Naruto is.

Naruto was clowning around, as he's prone to. He saw a good chance and he took it.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Even if I was one to forget things, I wouldn't forget chapter 540 considering how much its brought up here.



I should rephrase. You haven't forgotten it existed per se, you have simply forgotten what it means.



> For once though, I'll pass the baton to Kage for a moment: I think you missed how what I said there was partly me playing off the whole "what third parties say matters little/their view is distorted" angle that keeps being brought up in regards to the Sai flashback. The implication is there sure and my stance on the subject which I've said here multiple times, at least one of which was during a debate with you, is that Sakura's feelings still linger but are fading. While you can continue to remind people that 540 was around a day ago in the Naruverse, Iron Country was only around a month to two months ago(maybe even shorter than that...Kishi has a problem with informing readers of the passage of time).



I didn't miss anything that was said. You have missed the true meaning of those scenes however.

*Kishimoto said 'Naruto is a close friend, but as expected Sakura loves Sasuke.
*Sai said 'Sakura loves Sasuke, but she's not a child and understands what he has put us all trough.'. Sai also said 'Sakura loves Sasuke, but she's prepared to kill him so he won't sink any lower.'
*540 implies that 'Sakura loves Sasuke, but he's not a good guy and she acknowledges this.'
*Kakashi said 'Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her. '

Hell, I can even stretch this as far back as I'd like.

*Sakura spent 3 years apart from Sasuke, but she still loved him.
*Sakura had better options to chose than Sasuke, but she still loves him.
*Sakura thought Sasuke hated her, but she still loved him.
(...)

Sakura can be sad about Sasuke (happened), she can be heartbroken by him (happened), she can even turn against him (happened), but at the end of the day Sakura loves Sasuke. The *implication* is that Sakura loves Sasuke, despite the things he does that she doesn't approve.

Make no mistake. Sakura can take a stance against Sasuke (happened), but she cannot and won't discard her love for him. Those are the nature of bonds in Naruto, when they are meaningful. They are _forever_.



> I never said it wasn't deserved. It wasn't my intention to be disrespectful to SoulFire but in retrospect it was a poor choice to include it. I did find the comment with it amusing though, coming from you.



If you're rude towards me, its fine. Rude towards someone who is nothing but kind annoys the shit out of me.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 26, 2014)

Does someone have the raw for Naruto's line in 632 so they can give it to takl? I'm tired of debating about this shit. 3 or 4 out of 5 translations used so far imply that Naruto wasn't deliberately riling her "defy, turn on, talking back to or crossing, pester (most likely)" so I'd like to think that I'm right. 



ch1p said:


> That's nice, but the feelings being compared are chapter 4 and chapter 675, not chapter 181 and 675.


Why would he say that her feelings have matured if in the Kage Summit arc if it was already repeatedly stated and implied to Kakashi that her feelings have matured from chapter 4 (if there was growth)? He would have noticed that a long time ago. If he is now saying that her feelings have changed it can only mean that her romantic feelings have regressed unless you think he's restating her feelings of the Kage Summit arc which is retarded. Sakura's romantic feelings can only start to fade after Sasuke attempted to kill her. 



> But Sakura isn't his 'sorta of girlfriend' either. Naruto's lying, whether he genuinely believes what he says or not. And hif he's serious, then he's a hypocrite because he hates people who lie to themselves.
> 
> The fact is Naruto isn't the most respecful person in canon. For example, he drew feces on the Hokage's faces when he was 12 to gather attention. One of these Hokages being his role model even back then, mind you. His first reaction to Minato was punch him as well, angry at him or not.
> 
> ...



Riling people up to get attention was early Part 1 Naruto behavior that he's long grown past of. 
He no longer riles people up deliberately, so he only wanted to state what he felt about his relationship with Sakura to his father. Also, you don't even know what he means by sorta his girlfriend, which seems to be something he genuinely believes.


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## Tangle (Jun 26, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Why would he say that her feelings have matured if in the Kage Summit arc if it was already repeatedly stated and implied to Kakashi that her feelings have matured from chapter 4 (if there was growth)? *He would have noticed that a long time ago.* If he is now saying that her feelings have changed it can only mean that her romantic feelings have regressed unless you think he's restating her feelings of the Kage Summit arc which is retarded. Sakura's romantic feelings can only start to fade after Sasuke attempted to kill her.



Who says he didn't?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 26, 2014)

Tangle said:


> Who says he didn't?



*Spoiler*: __ 








He's in deep thought about Sakura in the fifth panel, meaning that he's NOW noticing something about her in this chapter that would make him think that her feelings have changed. He's obviously not stating anything he already noticed a long time ago.


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## ch1p (Jun 26, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Does someone have the raw for Naruto's line in 632 so they can give it to takl? I'm tired of debating about this shit. 3 or 4 out of 5 translations used so far imply that Naruto wasn't deliberately riling her "defy, turn on, talking back to or crossing, pester (most likely)" so I'd like to think that I'm right.



631 you mean? If so, .


*Spoiler*: _here's the script though_ 



Minato: 安心して君の味方だよナルトを回復してくれてありがとう…ナルトの彼女かな？」
Naruto: う〜〜〜〜んうん？うん！まぁそんな感じだって…
Sakura: ！！
Naruto: ばぁ！
Sakura: アンタは黙ってなさい！！しゃべる体力も温存！！！
Naruto: …イデデ…回復どころかダメージ食ってんだけどもよォ…！
Sakura: その分割り増しで回復したげるわょ！！
Minato: ハハ…（クシナに似てるかなこの子…息子をお手柔らかに願います…






> Why would he say that her feelings have matured if in the Kage Summit arc if it was already repeatedly stated and implied to Kakashi that her feelings have matured from chapter 4 (if there was growth)?
> 
> (...)
> 
> If he is now saying that her feelings have changed it can only mean that her romantic feelings have regressed unless you think he's restating her feelings of the Kage Summit arc which is retarded.



The same reason why Kakashi is stating that Naruto wants to be Hokage, even though that has been stated a million times before. The same reason why Kakashi already repeatedly stated and implied that Naruto had surpassed himself and Jiraiya (Hokage apoint?s for 5m), and Minato (Hokage) during the wind training arc (and subsequently many times). The same reason Kakashi already noticed that Naruto had been acknowledged as a hero at the endgame of the Pain arc and even during the fight with Obito. 

How long has Naruto been everyone's hero and surpassed the previous Hokages? Both happened in two instances that actually predate Iron Country, so if you think that restating things from there is retarded, restating things from two arcs that predate it is even more retarded. You should have seen it and you should have noticed a pattern. Like these two examples, there are many more by the way. The reason is, Kishi is *repetitive* to the point of frustration. He restates feelings and themes over and over again.



> He would have noticed that a long time ago.





Elicit94 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see how Kakashi hasn't noticed it. He correctly guessed that Sakura had decided to kill Sasuke, even before Sai explained Sakura's motivations for killing Sasuke were because she loves him. Because of this, I'm pretty sure he had already noticed that her feelings were different.

I mean, who wouldn't notice? Naruto, a "kid" and Sai, emotionally retarded, noticed Sakura loves Sasuke a long time ago. Would it even matter to you if the narrative had pointed out that Kakashi had noticed it though? Like I just said, Naruto and Sai noticed and I don't see you giving them any credence.

This is just the yearly reminder that Sakura loves Sasuke even though all the bulshit that has happened. It happens all the time. Kishi is *repetitive*.



> Sakura's romantic feelings can only start to fade after Sasuke attempted to kill her.



Kakashi said that Sakura still loves Sasuke despite him trying to kill her, so no dice. You have to find another way. There is no way, not after 540. Her feelings aren't going to fade from one day to the other, when they've been standing for _ten years already_.



> Riling people up to get attention was early Part 1 Naruto behavior that he's long grown past of. He no longer riles people up deliberately, so he only wanted to state what he felt about his relationship with Sakura to his father. Also, you don't even know what he means by sorta his girlfriend, which seems to be something he genuinely believes.



Naruto does rile up people for shits and giggles. It's part of his character and (for example) the reason why he says he won't mess up with Sakura in 632. That and Kishi likes to make him do something funny every now and then. For example, what he did this past chapter.


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## ch1p (Jun 26, 2014)

Nah. From the moment MP and MS translated it that way, I was 100% sure that it was about Sakura loving Sasuke, despite everything has happened. See, it was the same message as Iron Country and even chapter 540, furthermore in concordance with the manga's themes.

You can check my posts in the telegrams of the SS FC if you so wish (doubt you will). Then the rest of the translators I know (not just takl) confirmed it over and over again that this was the correct interpretation. It went all in when VIZ was even more shameless about it.

It's not up to discussion, it never was. It's funny you think it is though. I have no idea why my personal opinion on the matter is even relevant. The fact that its not up to discussion is because many translators have said its not, not because I say so.


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## TItroops (Jun 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It's not up to discussion, it never was. It's funny you think it is though.



Yeah. they're not. Just discussing the context.

the point Kakashi was trying to make is that Sakura is a kind girl for trying to still save Sasuke as a duty even after he tried to kill her, nothing romantic I'm afraid. When he talked about her feelings, it was all about past tense and if.



> It went all in when VIZ was even more shameless about it



So shameless, they even removed a line or 2 in their translation(for some reason.)


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 26, 2014)

Even if the Viz translation wasn't garbage, that still doesn't change the fact that SS is inherently unhealthy and detrimental to Sakuras character or Sasuke has zero romantic feelings for anyone.

Even if she does love him (doubtful) he doesn't love her...AT ALL. 

Either way you try to argue it your back to square one


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## ch1p (Jun 26, 2014)

TItroops said:


> Yeah. they're not. Just discussing the context.



What has what I did have to do with context?



> the point Kakashi was trying to make is that Sakura is a kind girl for trying to still save Sasuke as a duty even after he tried to kill her, nothing romantic I'm afraid. When he talked about her feelings, it was all about past tense and if.



Like the translators said, it's past pogressive. AKA it's still happening.



> So shameless, they even removed a line or 2 in their translation(for some reason.)



The meat of the thing is there tho'. Sakura loves Sasuke despite everything. You need to upgrade your argument.



ShadowFox88 said:


> Even if the Viz translation wasn't garbage, that still doesn't change the fact that SS is inherently unhealthy and detrimental to Sakuras character or Sasuke has zero romantic feelings for anyone.



Sakura loves Sasuke despute him trying to kill her. Your flippant opinion on unhealthy things is what's irrelevant for context.



> Even if she does love him (doubtful) he doesn't love her...AT ALL.
> 
> Either way you try to argue it your back to square one



Yes. The square one is Sakura loves Sasuke. Just like in chapter four. It's the same love although it's on a whole different level.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 26, 2014)

And yet, her so called "deeper" feelings will never be reciprocated. 

You seem adamant at ignoring Sasuke's feelings.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 26, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And yet, *her so called "deeper" feelings will never be reciprocated. *
> 
> You seem adamant at ignoring Sasuke's feelings.



That's not even an argument. No one knows what will or will not happen. I can say Sakura will never return Naruto's feelings or Naruto will never return Hinata's feelings...ect

You can say it's unlikely for Sasuke to return her feelings. Anything is possible. No one knows how this manga will end. We can all predict but last I checked this not the prediction thread.


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## Kage (Jun 26, 2014)

"Anything is possible" is not exactly an argument either.

On the subject of Sakura's "deeper mature feelings" I find it curious there is no visible difference from those feelings and part 1 Sakura's. This supposed mature love behaves the same way part I Sakura would when Sasuke gets testy; she hangs her head, shuts her mouth, is on the verge of tears and has Naruto come to her rescue in some form or other.


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## ch1p (Jun 26, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And yet, her so called "deeper" feelings will never be reciprocated. You seem adamant at ignoring Sasuke's feelings.



I support Sakura and I support Sasuke.  If she loves him and wants to help him, then I'll support her. I believe Sakura and her love would be good and benefit Sasuke, so if he wants to have a relationship with her, I'll support him as well.

Everything else...


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## Plague (Jun 26, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And yet, her so called "deeper" feelings will never be reciprocated.
> 
> You seem adamant at ignoring Sasuke's feelings.



I'm not a SasuSaku fan. Matter of fact I hate that pairing. 

But Kishi had Tobirama state that Uchiha's feel love "hard". 

As ridiculous as Sasuke has been acting, Kishi could very well say that he was hiding his true feelings. 

It's stupid and bad writing, but its there. 

Saying any pairing is "dead" is a bit arrogant.


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## Michael Senpai (Jun 26, 2014)

This is so familiar... Where have I heard this before?
OH 
"Stop ignoring Naruto's feelings, he obviously still loves Sakura!"
But she doesn't love him
But wait but but but but wait!
"Stop ignoring Sasuke's feelings! He doesn't love her!"
So I guess with that being said, people should take that arrogant  "Your pairing is dead" comments somewhere else.


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## Chabal (Jun 26, 2014)

Plague said:


> I'm not a SasuSaku fan. Matter of fact I hate that pairing.
> 
> But Kishi had Tobirama state that Uchiha's feel love "hard".
> 
> ...



Surely if Uchihas love is far stronger than what "normal" people feel it makes Sasuke's behavior towards Sakura even more nonsensical if he is indeed in love with her?

The idea Sasuke is some sort of extreme Tsundere towards Sakura is probably one of the most ridiculous arguments in this debate. It just doesn't fit with Sasuke's characterization, who's always been a very blunt individual who tells things like they are. He never had an issue telling Naruto he considered him his best friend, or how he didn't want to lose "precious comrades" anymore. 

He also never had any trouble showing how concerned he was when people he cared about were in danger, like in this very arc during the fight against Kabuto (watch the faces he makes when Itachi gets hit) or even, ironically enough, against Killer Bee when he thought Taka and especially Karin were in trouble. Compare with the poker face when he coldly states he'll only save Juugo and Naruto from Obito's nuke, or when he doesn't even spare Sakura a glance after Madara stabbed her.

Of course there's also the issue of Sakura herself stating Sasuke doesn't care about her well being, which is somehow completely ignored. Character statements are apparently valid only when they can be used as a positive for SS, otherwise they're worthless even when they come from the one character whose thoughts and feelings make up the entirety of the "pairing". I also remember SS arguments stating Sakura was the one who understood Sasuke the most, but I guess this isn't the case in this particular scene? Why though I don't know. Maybe SS will blame her doubts on someone else like always, is it Naruto's fault? Or maybe Sai? Yamato? Santa Claus?


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## shurei (Jun 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> "Anything is possible" is not exactly an argument either.
> 
> On the subject of Sakura's "deeper mature feelings" I find it curious there is no visible difference from those feelings and part 1 Sakura's. This supposed mature love behaves the same way part I Sakura would when Sasuke gets testy; she hangs her head, shuts her mouth, is on the verge of tears and has Naruto come to her rescue in some form or other.



I agree! The added  bonus of Sakura's mistrust, fake smile and dejection feels of uselessness while Sasuke admitted to Naruto because of the coincidence for Sakura and Kakashi standing next to Naruto they would be trapped in the I.T say a lot about the fate of the SS ship . The deliciousness of Sasuke action to his willingness to  compromise the lives of both Sakura (his supposed hidden Uchiha deep love clause) and Kakashi (that other guy who is sensai)  to achieve the sealment of Kaguya reeks of "winning at all cost".


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## Kage (Jun 26, 2014)

Furthermore, Sasuke conveniently burying his secret love for Sakura wouldn't be something he could hide from his sharingan, 

Not once has it been implied, by Sasuke or anyone else, that losing Sakura specifically would cause a despair powerful enough to evolve or strengthen his sharingan.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 26, 2014)

CPRSex said:


> This is so familiar... Where have I heard this before?
> OH
> "Stop ignoring Naruto's feelings, he obviously still loves Sakura!"
> But she doesn't love him
> ...



I love how you assume that most of us debating you are Pro NS. Newsflash, most of us aren't. Just arguing against the ridiculous arguments that throw out rationality and common sense. 

If you're going to try the double standard angle, you should look at yourself first.


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## shurei (Jun 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> Furthermore, Sasuke conveniently burying his secret love for Sakura wouldn't be something he could hide from his sharingan,
> 
> *Not once has it been implied, by Sasuke or anyone else, that losing Sakura specifically would cause a despair powerful enough to evolve or strengthen his sharingan*.



True, but what is heavily implied is that Sasuke didn't give a damn about her in the least, not even as a comrade Edit: this is made clear when Sakura and Kakashi are within the mouth  of the lava and Sasuke chooses to save Naruto!
Sakura and Kakashi were expendable


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## Kage (Jun 26, 2014)

Saying a pairing is dead _should_ just be a lazier way of saying it's chances are slim to none as far as I'm concerned and there's nothing wrong with that. Especially if you can provide sufficient evidence for such a claim.



shurei said:


> True, but what is heavily implied is that Sasuke didn't give a damn about her in the least, not even as a comrade Edit: this is made clear when Sakura and Kakashi are within the mouth  of the lava and Sasuke chooses to save Naruto!
> Sakura and Kakashi were expendable



Yes, that's the state of it currently. Learning to care for her as a comrade again, which is bound to happen sooner or later, doesn't really guarantee much in romance department either. But SS is so special it has to (and is the last to) work up to "mutual care and respect for each other" and once it gets to that point it can just skip a platonic relationship entirely.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> Saying a pairing is dead _should_ just be a lazier way of saying it's chances are slim to none as far as I'm concerned and there's nothing wrong with that. Especially if you can provide sufficient evidence for such a claim.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the state of it currently. Learning to care for her as a comrade again, which is bound to happen sooner or later, doesn't really guarantee much in romance department either. But SS is so special it has to and is slow to work up to "mutual care and respect for each other" and once it gets to that point it can just skip a platonic relationship entirely.



Well, considering that Sakura supports Naruto for Hokage, I doubt Sasuke would take too kindly to that. 

Girl he's supposed to "love" doesn't even side with him to change the village for the better.


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## shurei (Jun 26, 2014)

Kage said:


> *Saying a pairing is dead* _should_ just be a lazier way of saying *it's chances are slim to none* as far as I'm concerned and *there's nothing wrong with that. Especially if you can provide sufficient evidence for such a claim*.


I have nothing that would counter but that is SS specialty.




> Yes, that's the state of it currently. Learning to care for her as a comrade again, which is bound to happen sooner or later, doesn't really guarantee much in romance department either. But SS is so special it has to (and is the last to) work up to "mutual care and respect for each other" and once it gets to that point it can just skip a platonic relationship entirely.


Platonic is the best SS can hope for after Sasuke's redemption.


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## Kage (Jun 26, 2014)

ShadowFox88 said:


> Well, considering that Sakura supports Naruto for Hokage, I doubt Sasuke would take too kindly to that.
> 
> Girl he's supposed to "love" doesn't even side with him to change the village for the better.



You're doing it wrong. The Sasuke of now is not important. When referring to him (especially in regards to Sakura) you have to think in terms of hypothetical future Sasuke, the one who will be more considerate and rational and caring and perfect husband/hokage material.


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## sakuraboobs (Jun 26, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> And yet, her so called "deeper" feelings will never be reciprocated.



Did you already told this to Kishi? cause I doubt he knows. 



BankaiLegend3135 said:


> You seem adamant at ignoring Sasuke's feelings.



We don't know if Sasuke's feelings for Sakura are romantic.  Sasuke is not like Sakura nor Hinata - whose feelings we know very well - but at least  we know that Sasuke benefited from her romantic feelings for him and this is a good thing. 

Also you seem to ignore Sakura's feelings which has been emphasized many times (most recent in chap. 675) - she really is in love with Sasuke. 

Sakura's feelings for Naruto 'the supposed romantic' ones are never put in question or even mention so yeah. Dam you Kishi.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> 631 you mean? If so, .
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _here's the script though_
> ...



I'm talking about Naruto's line in 632 where he says he wouldn't "turn on" Sakura again. 



> I don't see how Kakashi hasn't noticed it. He correctly guessed that Sakura had decided to kill Sasuke, even before Sai explained Sakura's motivations for killing Sasuke were because she loves him. Because of this, I'm pretty sure he had already noticed that her feelings were different.
> 
> I mean, who wouldn't notice? Naruto, a "kid" and Sai, emotionally retarded, noticed Sakura loves Sasuke a long time ago. Would it even matter to you if the narrative had pointed out that Kakashi had noticed it though? Like I just said, Naruto and Sai noticed and I don't see you giving them any credence.
> 
> This is just the yearly reminder that Sakura loves Sasuke even though all the bulshit that has happened. It happens all the time. Kishi is *repetitive*.



Naruto probably doesn't believe that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have changed, but Sai has most likely already noticed something about her that pertains to her changing feelings for Sasuke. Sai is a character that is always used to indicate romantic feelings (either to notice something about them, confirm them, or see change in them), so it's a big deal when he notices Sakura's fake smile in 635. She was obviously lying to herself about being happy that Sasuke is back and trusting him. 

Kakashi is noticing something new about Sakura that pertains to her romantic feelings for Sasuke in 675, so he can't be restating what he noticed in the Kage Summit arc.



> Naruto does rile up people for shits and giggles. It's part of his character and (for example) the reason why he says he won't mess up with Sakura in 632. That and Kishi likes to make him do something funny every now and then. For example, what he did this past chapter.


Show me examples where he does it deliberately, other than early Part 1 Naruto moments. He's not trying to rile her up if his face is serious like if he's just trying to answer a legit question.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 26, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I should rephrase. You haven't forgotten it existed per se, you have simply forgotten what it means.


Or you know...have a different view on what it means in the long term for the pairing. 



> I didn't miss anything that was said. You have missed the true meaning of those scenes however.


"True meaning"...how pretentious




> Sakura can be sad about Sasuke (happened), she can be heartbroken by him (happened), she can even turn against him (happened), but at the end of the day Sakura loves Sasuke. The *implication* is that Sakura loves Sasuke, despite the things he does that she doesn't approve.
> 
> Make no mistake. Sakura can take a stance against Sasuke (happened), but she cannot and won't discard her love for him. Those are the nature of bonds in Naruto, when they are meaningful. They are _forever_.


"Discard" is an incorrect term to use. One doesn't discard love for somebody, that implies quick loss of feeling. Feelings can fade though into almost nothing though. Feelings can change from being romantic to being platonic with only small remnants of the romantic feelings remaining. Bonds in Naruto may be "forever" but that doesn't mean the nature of the bond can't change. A romantic bond can turn into a platonic one and vice versa. Arguing that Sakura's romantic love for Sasuke will never change because of the whole "bonds are forever" thing doesn't really help your case, even if taken the way you are trying to push for it to be taken, not just because of Naruto's feelings for Sakura but Sasuke's lack of feelings for Sakura.   




> If you're rude towards me, its fine. Rude towards someone who is nothing but kind annoys the shit out of me.


Understandable





I've spoken way too much on the whole 631 thing, so I won't say much there. It still astounds me that people think Naruto suddenly gained the ability to pull off a poker face though. Naruto is not subtle, if he is making a joke/teasing someone/trying to rile someone up it would be obvious through his facial and bodily expressions.


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## Chabal (Jun 26, 2014)

sasusakucannon said:


> We don't know if Sasuke's feelings for Sakura are romantic.  Sasuke is not like Sakura nor Hinata - whose feelings we know very well - but at least  we know that Sasuke benefited from her romantic feelings for him and this is a good thing.



See this is why SS is nonsensical to the extreme. The fact Sasuke's feelings for Sakura are interpreted as ambiguous after all the things that happend between them. 

I don't know if it's a problem of misguided fandom, but as I said before you have to remember the target demographics for this manga. Young boys. I can tell you a guy who sees the way Sasuke treats Sakura isn't going to think "wow how mysterious I wonder what Sasuke REALLY feels about Sakura, he must really love her deep down but he's just shy". We think "this guy doesn't give a darn about this chick". I mean what constitutes a worse rejection than attempting to end someone's life?

As for Sasuke's benefiting from Sakura's feelings, he did show gratitude for her concern, but it was never enough to divert him from the path of darkness he's still following today, and by Sakura's own admission she can't do anything to save him, contrary to Naruto. As for Sakura her feelings for him have only brought her misery and that is not a good thing. 




> Also you seem to ignore Sakura's feelings which has been emphasized many times (most recent in chap. 675) - she really is in love with Sasuke.



Look at Kage's post about context. 



> Sakura's feelings for Naruto 'the supposed romantic' ones are never put in question or even mention so yeah. Dam you Kishi.



They have been multiple times during the course of part 2 but of course I wouldn't expect you to pay attention to them, it's far more important to try to decipher Sasuke's secret feelings for Sakura when he lets her drop into lava without even looking in her direction.


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## Plague (Jun 26, 2014)

The reason I brought up that "Uchiha's feel love/hate harder" thing is because, from a writers perspective, why would Kishimoto bring it up if he wasn't going to use both sides? 

We've seen the hate, it's time to see the love. lmao

Look at it from a writers perspective. He wanted us readers to know that for a reason. (I can't believe I am defending SasuSaku >_____<')

Kishi put it on the table for a reason. And I doubt it's for their other teammate.


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## Chabal (Jun 26, 2014)

Plague said:


> The reason I brought up that "Uchiha's feel love/hate harder" thing is because, from a writers perspective, why would Kishimoto bring it up if he wasn't going to use both sides?
> 
> We've seen the hate, it's time to see the love. lmao
> 
> ...



? In the very page Kage posted, they talk about Madara and how he became uncontrollable because of this curse of the Uchiha, and Hashirama clearly mentions it was because he loved his little brother so much. There is zero mention of romantic love (this is a mistake I've seen quite a few people make, as if everytime love was mentioned it meant something romantic, which isn't the case).

This is also what happend with Sasuke. Sasuke is in the darkness because of his love for Itachi and his family and clan. Again Sakura has no place in this narrative.


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## Kage (Jun 26, 2014)

I think there's also the tendency to mistake Sasuke for Obito who was a clear case of having a romantic love effect his Uchiha curse.

Let's not even get into everything wrong with that scenario.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 26, 2014)

Sasuke's ultimate bond is still Itachi. Even Naruto does not compare. Much less Sakura I fear.

If Kishi wants to make SS canon then he should throw some pairing tease as NS has tons of pairing tease even if it isn't 100% clear as romantic tease. Of course Kishi may turn Sasuke into a tsundere that says that he doesn't care but actually does as Naruto implied by making him remember when he shielded Naruto from Haku's attack. But that would be kinda weird. I see Kishi shielding Sakura with his own body(to make up for his dickishness towards her) but that wouldn't necessarily mean that he loves her but just that he cares for her as a dear comrade.

What Kishi plans for Sasuke when it comes to romance is a mystery. He may keep him thinking about Itachi and only Itachi for the rest of his life, he may hook him with Karin since he interacted with her more in part 2 than with any other girl, he may give him some love epiphany and make him fall for Sakura(though that would be weird and sudden given no build up), kill him and make him join his family, or leave an open ending including what girl Sasuke will hook up.

Naruto is still in love with Sakura who may or not be starting to reciprocate his feelings

Hinata is still in love with Naruto but he had not yet given clear signs that he started to love her too or giving up on Sakura.

Sasuke is still Itachisexual/asexual and Sakura may either developed more mature feelings of love towards him in contrast to her early part 1 fangirlish crush or care for him "only" as a very dear friend.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

People should get it by now that the Uchiha curse was mentioned for a reason. We now also have Black Zetsu admitting he had to do with those Uchihas Tobirama called " cursed with evil and suddenly start to lose their mind " . We have Kishi states it's because they truly love and care so much that the loss of that love drive them crazy ( with a huge help from dark forces that affect them )

At the beginning of this manga Team7 passed the bell exam because Sasuke cared enough to disobey orders to feed Naruto. He cares enough to wait for Sakura to wake up when she fainted during the bell exam even though he was wasting precious time.
Then Kishi introduced Sasuke's real self in wave arc . Kishi made Haku say it clearly " A shinobi who willingly step into a deadly trap to save a friend or a dear one " that's who Sasuke really is.

It is all set to be revealed and there are ton of evidence to prove it. The only ones who affected Sasuke enough to almost forgetting his revenge are team7. Sakura's tears was able to stop the effect of the cursed seal on him. Sakura being in danger made him want to throw his life to save them even if he can never achieve his revenge in Gaara's fight.
The only person who Sasuke bonded with and had nothing to do with his revenge was Sakura. Naruto was a rival that with fighting him he will become stronger , Kakashi was his teacher who can teach him to become more powerful. All of Taka was formed for the soul purpose of their abilities being useful to trace itachi. 
Sasuke's bond with Sakura has nothing to do with power or her usefulness to his revenge. He formed that bond unconsciously with her.

I am not saying his bonds with others are only for power or usefulness , that's far from what I'm saying. What I mean is that , Sasuke's bond with Sakura is the only bond he had after the massacre that didn't stem or start from the initial need for power or usefulness in his revenge.


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## BankaiLegend3135 (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> People should get it by now that the Uchiha curse was mentioned for a reason. We now also have Black Zetsu admitting he had to do with those Uchihas Tobirama called " cursed with evil and suddenly start to lose their mind " . We have Kishi states it's because they truly love and care so much that the loss of that love drive them crazy ( with a huge help from dark forces that affect them )
> 
> At the beginning of this manga Team7 passed the bell exam because Sasuke cared enough to disobey orders to feed Naruto. He cares enough to wait for Sakura to wake up when she fainted during the bell exams even though he was wasting precious time.
> Then Kishi introduced Sasuke's real self in wave arc . Kishi made Haku say it clearly " A shinobi who willingly step into a deadly trap to save a friend or a dear one " that's who Sasuke really is.
> ...


Any sort of bond that Sasuke shared with Sakura was shattered the moment he left the village and was DEFINITELY killed the moment he tried to kill her...three times. 

He has no bond with Sakura. She's useless to him. He said so himself and demonstrated how much he values her life; which is to say nothing at all.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 27, 2014)

You know, it's one thing to try and prove that Sasuke truly cares about Sakura deep down, but you have to be retarded to try and make it seem like he could have romantic feelings for her if he truly does care about her. SasuSaku has a near 0% chance of happening only because Sasuke has never found anything about her that is appealing to him in all his time in Team 7, all while being incredibly dismissive to her romantic affection and not sparing a single thought about just her after Sakura said that he hates her when she confessed. Sasuke shot down any possibility that he could have romantic feelings for her during her confession to him. It's a crack pairing that will never happen.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Any sort of bond that Sasuke shared with Sakura was shattered the moment he left the village and was DEFINITELY killed the moment he tried to kill her...three times.
> 
> He has no bond with Sakura. She's useless to him. He said so himself and demonstrated how much he values her life; which is to say nothing at all.



You conveniently left the first half of my post. Just because Sasuke pretends or likes to think he doesn't care doesn't mean much. You still don't get the fact that Kishi introduced the Uchiha curse and now black zetsu involvement in uchiha's flipping or going crazy was not just for nothing.

You think the bond has shattered but I disagree. Itachi has done much worse to sasuke , even tortured him mentally , killed all his parents , lover and friends and relatives even though itachi STILL LOVED them. 

There is a theme with Uchihas Kishi is trying to tell a story about. It's not a coincidence that  itachi/Obito/Madara/sasuke have all done many questionable things yet all of them are also said to be good at heart by people who truly knew them and formed bonds with them before they went berserk. Kishi is throwing that curse thing in the manga for a reason. He's adding more to it lately like Black Zetsu.

Believe what you want , but there are quite the evidence on this matter in the manga.



Elicit94 said:


> You know, it's one thing to try and prove that Sasuke truly cares about Sakura deep down, but you have to be retarded to try and make it seem like he could have romantic feelings for her if he truly does care about her. SasuSaku has a near 0% chance of happening only because Sasuke has never found anything about her that is appealing to him in all his time in Team 7, all while being incredibly dismissive to her romantic affection and not sparing a single thought about just her after Sakura said that he hates her when she confessed. Sasuke shot down any possibility that he could have romantic feelings for her during her confession to him. It's a crack pairing that will never happen.



Sasuke is a closed off character. Anyone who thinks his interests will be out in the open like telling her how lovely she is , or giving her flowers or asking for dates is the retarded one. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around and is the only girl he smirked/smiled satisfied around too , one of them is in part1 and the other in part 2. Sasuke does care about Sakura, what kind of feelings are there for her? Who knows. But his bond with her is unique in more than one way. Just the fact that it's the only bond that has nothing to do with power is unique enough.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> You conveniently left the first half of my post. Just because Sasuke pretends or likes to think he doesn't care doesn't mean much. You still don't get the fact the Kishi introduced the Uchiha curse and now black zetsu involvement in uchiha's flipping or going crazy was not just for nothing.
> 
> You think the bond has shattered but I disagree. Itachi has done much worse to sasuke , even tortured him mentally , killed all his parents , lover and friends and relatives even though he STILL LOVED them.
> 
> ...


_Are you fucking kidding me? _ You have to be dizzy from the amount of spin your trying to bullshit me with. 

Itachi is practically essential to Sasuke's character, Sakura not at ALL. You take Sakura away, NOTHING about Sasuke's character changes. You take Itachi away, EVERYTHING changes. 

This is the most blatant apples and oranges comparison I've seen in this thread, which is saying something.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> Sasuke is a closed off character. Anyone who thinks his interests will be out in the open like telling her how lovely she is , or giving her flowers or asking for dates is the retarded one. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around and is the only girl he smirked/smiled satisfied around too , one of them is in part1 and the other in part 2. Sasuke does care about Sakura what kind of feelings are there for her? Who knows. But his bond with her is unique in more than one way. Just the fact that it's the only bond that has nothing to do with power is unique enough.


Any possible romantic feelings he could have for Sakura that are closed off would have been exposed during her confession, especially considering the fact that Sakura was tearfully commenting on how closed off he is towards her. There was nothing indicative of him having romantic feelings for her even though he knew that he was probably never going to see her again  meaning that he only ever felt feelings of friendship towards her. Sakura is not a special snowflake to him and that is a fact that has been extremely evident throughout the whole manga.

Oh, and for those that think you can get away with the narrative "not giving a fuck" about the negativity that surrounds SasuSaku, if you're interpreation of Kakashi's words happens to be right (which I doubt), 540 is your biggest nightmare. When the fodder-nin commented that the person Sakura likes must be a great guy, she thinks of a murderous-looking Sasuke (who's quite the opposite of that) in flames and puts her head down in shame. What irony! There is no other reason for this scene to have happened other than to question her romantic interests, and the state of her feelings for Sasuke.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

ShadowFox88 said:


> _Are you fucking kidding me? _ You have to be dizzy from the amount of spin your trying to bullshit me with.
> 
> Itachi is practically essential to Sasuke's character, Sakura not at ALL. You take Sakura away, NOTHING about Sasuke's character changes. You take Itachi away, EVERYTHING changes.
> 
> This is the most blatant apples and oranges comparison I've seen in this thread, which is saying something.



I have never compared itachi and Sakura , read before you post. Itachi is a brother Sakura is a girl he met who he never wanted to bond with but still did anyway. What the heck are you on about?
What I was saying is itachi killed his parents and lover yet he still LOVED them when he did that. He beat Sasuke half to death put him in a coma and tortured him mentally and STILL LOVED more than anything. Itachi did all those horrible things to people he LOVED. I said that in response to the claim that because Sasuke tried to kill Sakura that means the bond has shattered. 
If you take Sakura away from Sasuke's character his first kill would have been in the forest of death under the influence of the CS because she's the one who has stopped him. He would have killed Karin in the kage summit because Sakura is the one who had stopped him too. 

Kishi doesn't leave much to the females sadly ( something I've always criticized him about among many other things ) 

If you take itachi away Sasuke would be much happier and wouldn't have gone to darkness in the first place. Itachi did much more bad than good to Sasuke's character.



Elicit94 said:


> Any possible romantic feelings he could have for Sakura that are closed off would have been exposed during her confession, especially considering the fact that Sakura was tearfully commenting on how closed off he is towards her. .



That's not true at all. Sasuke is the perfect case of a male who thinks he can't afford romance because he has ambitions. Any man with ambitions that he thinks cannot be achieved with romance will act the same way Sasuke did  when Sakura confessed. Sasuke thought he can't afford bonds. It's why he tried to cut them and it's why he failed to cut them because he still cares.


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## ch1p (Jun 27, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> I'm talking about Naruto's line in 632 where he says he wouldn't "turn on" Sakura again.



Naruto: 2度と?もう2度と?！！2度とサクラちゃんに歯向かうのはよそう??塵にされる?！



> Naruto probably doesn't believe that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke have changed, but Sai has most likely already noticed something about her that pertains to her changing feelings for Sasuke. Sai is a character that is always used to indicate romantic feelings (either to notice something about them, confirm them, or see change in them), so it's a big deal when he notices Sakura's fake smile in 635. She was obviously lying to herself about being happy that Sasuke is back and trusting him.



A) This is bizarre plot progression. If Sakura not trusting Sasuke when he displays questionable behaviour even though he joined the alliance is somehow indicative of her feelings being smothering, then that should have happened when Sasuke joined the enemy during the Pain arc or when he attempted to kill her. If it was the case you advocate.

B) This is overreaching. Sai said 'because she loves him' thrice just a few weeks before. Sakura's smile may be fake, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love him anymore or loves him any less. They are not the same thing and there's no indication that it could be the same thing.

C) If anything this situation is similar to Kishimoto classic: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though she doesn't trust him. Just like in 540: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a nice guy, and like in 675: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her. This is something we've already seen a million times before, while you're advocating for a new one that we've never seen and without any hints that it could be.



> Kakashi is noticing something new about Sakura that pertains to her romantic feelings for Sasuke in 675, so he can't be restating what he noticed in the Kage Summit arc.



Yes he can be a repetitive offender. Kakashi already acknowledged that Naruto has surpassed the previous Hokages and is acknowledged by everyone several arcs back. Kakashi already acknowledged that Sasuke killed Itachi several arcs back as well. What he says about Sakura isn't new, as much as what he says about Naruto or Sasuke isn't new.



> Show me examples where he does it deliberately, other than early Part 1 Naruto moments. He's not trying to rile her up if his face is serious like if he's just trying to answer a legit question.



Naruto riles up people often, not just Sakura. Or Kishi likes to make him 'funny'. Show you? Like I told you, read this week's chapter. You think what Naruto did there is serious business? It's not, even though the world's at stake. That's even "worse" than screwing around his father.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Or you know...have a different view on what it means in the long term for the pairing.  "True meaning"...how pretentious



My different view and my pretentiousness comes with solid arguments though. 



> "Discard" is an incorrect term to use. One doesn't discard love for somebody, that implies quick loss of feeling. Feelings can fade though into almost nothing though. Feelings can change from being romantic to being platonic with only small remnants of the romantic feelings remaining. Bonds in Naruto may be "forever" but that doesn't mean the nature of the bond can't change. A romantic bond can turn into a platonic one and vice versa. Arguing that Sakura's romantic love for Sasuke will never change because of the whole "bonds are forever" thing doesn't really help your case, even if taken the way you are trying to push for it to be taken, not just because of Naruto's feelings for Sakura but Sasuke's lack of feelings for Sakura.



When has this happened in Naruto? Never.



> Understandable



Alright.



> I've spoken way too much on the whole 631 thing, so I won't say much there. It still astounds me that people think Naruto suddenly gained the ability to pull off a poker face though. Naruto is not subtle, if he is making a joke/teasing someone/trying to rile someone up it would be obvious through his facial and bodily expressions.



His face looks funny enough to me. The whole chapter is gag after gag. From Madara going    to Hashirama, or with everyone going :amazed  at Sasuke when he says he wants to be Hokage.




Chabal said:


> See this is why SS is nonsensical to the extreme. The fact Sasuke's feelings for Sakura are interpreted as ambiguous after all the things that happend between them.
> 
> I don't know if it's a problem of misguided fandom, but as I said before you have to remember the target demographics for this manga. Young boys. I can tell you a guy who sees the way Sasuke treats Sakura isn't going to think "wow how mysterious I wonder what Sasuke REALLY feels about Sakura, he must really love her deep down but he's just shy". We think "this guy doesn't give a darn about this chick". I mean what constitutes a worse rejection than attempting to end someone's life?
> 
> As for Sasuke's benefiting from Sakura's feelings, he did show gratitude for her concern, but it was never enough to divert him from the path of darkness he's still following today, and by Sakura's own admission she can't do anything to save him, contrary to Naruto. As for Sakura her feelings for him have only brought her misery and that is not a good thing.



That's nice, but Sasuke was grateful for it and Sakura still wants to save him from darkness, so everything you say there is invalid.



> Look at Kage's post about context.



Kage's post ignores the fact that its always the same message in all of those situations. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's being naughty.



> They have been multiple times during the course of part 2 but of course I wouldn't expect you to pay attention to them, it's far more important to try to decipher Sasuke's secret feelings for Sakura when he lets her drop into lava without even looking in her direction.



This is asking for a NO U, because to be fair, Sasuke's ways of dealing with people were just touched a couple of chapters ago. Attempting to decipher Sasuke's character motivations is something we've touched very recently. When was the last time Sakura's feelings for Naruto may be changing  or Naruto's feelings for Sakura were touched in a way that affected the narrative? Over 200 chapters ago, if not more because the flashback actually predates the destruction of the Leaf.



shikamaru naraS said:


> What I was saying is itachi killed his parents and lover yet he still LOVED them when he did that. He beat Sasuke half to death put him in a coma and tortured him mentally and STILL LOVED more than anything. Itachi did all those horrible things to people he LOVED. I said that in response to the claim that because Sasuke tried to kill Sakura that means the bond has shattered.





> If you take Sakura away from Sasuke's character his first kill would have been in the forest of death under the influence of the CS because she's the one who has stopped him. He would have killed Karin in the kage summit because Sakura is the one who had stopped him too. (...) If you take itachi away Sasuke would be much happier and wouldn't have gone to darkness in the first place. Itachi did much more bad than good to Sasuke's character.





> That's not true at all. Sasuke is the perfect case of a male who thinks he can't afford romance because he has ambitions. Any man with ambitions that he thinks cannot be achieved with romance will act the same way Sasuke did  when Sakura confessed. Sasuke thought he can't afford bonds. It's why he tried to cut them and it's why he failed to cut them because he still cares.



These are all true.


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## Hitt (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> Sasuke is a closed off character. Anyone who thinks his interests will be out in the open like telling her how lovely she is , or giving her flowers or asking for dates is the retarded one. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around and is the only girl he smirked/smiled satisfied around too , one of them is in part1 and the other in part 2. Sasuke does care about Sakura, what kind of feelings are there for her? Who knows. But his bond with her is unique in more than one way. Just the fact that it's the only bond that has nothing to do with power is unique enough.



Closed off?  Seriously?  Sasuke is ANYTHING but closed off when he's around people he cares about.  Which comes to Itachi and Naruto.  That's it.  He's an open book then.

The idea is Sasuke is only closed off in his feelings to Sakura and her alone is laughable.  If someone wants to try to use this to support SS they are just reeking of utter desperation.

As for the *UCHIHA CURSE*, SS should steer well clear of this, because it flat out won't help them.  It's been made clear that the "love" they speak of can be any type of love, from brotherly to romantic, and only in Obito's case was it romantic...for Madara and Sasuke it came down to their brotherly love, and Itachi it was a friendship love.  When they speak of the curse with regards to Sasuke, it's plain as day his love is with respect to Itachi.  Trying to shoehorn Sakura into that is laughable to the extreme.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

Hitt said:


> Closed off?  Seriously?  Sasuke is ANYTHING but closed off when he's around people he cares about.  Which comes to Itachi and Naruto.  That's it.  He's an open book then.
> 
> The idea is Sasuke is only closed off in his feelings to Sakura and her alone is laughable.  If someone wants to try to use this to support SS they are just reeking of utter desperation.
> 
> As for the *UCHIHA CURSE*, SS should steer well clear of this, because it flat out won't help them.  It's been made clear that the "love" they speak of can be any type of love, from brotherly to romantic, and only in Obito's case was it romantic...for Madara and Sasuke it came down to their brotherly love, and Itachi it was a friendship love.  When they speak of the curse with regards to Sasuke, it's plain as day his love is with respect to Itachi.  Trying to shoehorn Sakura into that is laughable to the extreme.



You're absolutely right , Sasuke is such an outgoing person who freely give hugs and admit how much he cares specially to girls. 

Itachi is a bond Sasuke had before the massacre stop comparing sasuke's love towards his brother with potential romantic love. Sasuke doesn't have to hide the fact that he cares about itachi because he needs that care for his revenge. The love he had for itachi was turned into hatred then after knowing the truth was turned back to love.

Sasuke doesn't like to admit he cares about anyone but his family after the massacre.He was closed off towards Naruto as he is towards Sakura in part two till recently when he claims he only cares because Naruto has the other half of the sage power. 

In part one he admitted he cares about both Naruto and Sakura. He even called Sakura a precious person.  But like I said , in his plan for the future he had no plans for romance because of his ambitions. And since Sakura is the only bond he can't relate to his quest for power or revenge he tries his best to ignore it and pretend he doesn't care at all which is a lie. 

Romance is different from rivalry or brotherhood dude. 

Dude , you do not understand a thing about the implication of the Uchiha curse. The Uchiha curse is said to take effect when an Uchiha looses someone he cares about a lot and that happened to Sasuke on a HUGE scale it started with the whole clan then it ended with itachi. What you should pay attention to is not what kind of love Sasuke lost , but what kind of effect the curse has on him and in turn how it made him do things he normally would not do. It's dark forces affecting people in a bad way. Do you get it still? Can you see where Kishi is going with this?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> You're absolutely right , Sasuke is such an outgoing person who freely give hugs and admit how much he cares specially to girls.



Sasuke isn't one to parse his words, he's very blunt. 



> Itachi is a bond Sasuke had before the massacre stop comparing sasuke's love towards his brother with potential romantic love. Sasuke doesn't have to hide the fact that he cares about itachi because he needs that care for his revenge. The love he had for itachi was turned into hatred then after knowing the truth was turned back to love.
> 
> Sasuke doesn't like to admit he cares about anyone but his family after the massacre.He was closed off towards Naruto as he is towards Sakura in part two till recently when he claims he only cares because Naruto has the other half of the sage power.



He blatantly admitted to Naruto that they were best friends before their fight. He really hasn't shown any form of aversion or shyness in telling people what he thinks of them be that for good or ill. You all are just trying to make up this fantasy version of a Sasuke that cares about romantic pursuits.



> In part one he admitted he cares about both Naruto and Sakura. He even called Sakura a precious person.  But like I said , in his plan for the future he had no plans for romance because of his ambitions. And since Sakura is the only bond he can't relate to his quest for power or revenge he tries his best to ignore it and pretend he doesn't care at all which is a lie.



His ambitions since you forgot, he felt excluded him from forging bonds in general but he did and admitted to them. More than anything that was important to him was the concept of a surrogate family, and he feared it because he feared losing it. Yet still, he found one in his team and came to terms with it. The simple fact is that while Sakura was part of that surrogate family, she was not nearly as close to him or understood him as the others did. 



> Romance is different from rivalry or brotherhood dude.



The nature is different but as clearly shown with Sasuke, intensity is a more defining aspect. More importantly, Sasuke has shown only interest in terms of familial or surrogate bonds, and zero on romance. You are arguing purely from a perspective of what you want him to be rather than what he is.



> Dude , you do not understand a thing about the implication of the Uchiha curse. The Uchiha curse is said to take effect when an Uchiha looses someone he cares about a lot and that happened to Sasuke on a HUGE scale it started with the whole clan then it ended with itachi.



The curse is metaphorical. It is reference to the fate Uchiha often face in losing themselves in the pursuit of power, as greater power requires experiencing greater traumas, they subject themselves to events that contribute to corrosion of the positive traits of their personality. 



> What you should pay attention to is not what kind of love Sasuke lost , but what kind of effect the curse has on him and in turn how it made him do things he normally would not do. It's dark forces affecting people in a bad way. Do you get it still? Can you see where Kishi is going with this?



It's metaphorical, once again. All of his deeds have been his of his own volition and choosing. They are completely his responsibility. The "dark forces" have not subverted his will, they have been suggestive influences at best. Such influences he has shown when he wants to he is perfectly capable of ignoring. If it was involuntary, if it was a genetic inevitability then this wouldn't be a matter of redemption. 



			
				ch1p said:
			
		

> Kage's post ignores the fact that its always the same message in all of those situations. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's being naughty.



How demented.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Sasuke isn't one to parse his words, he's very blunt.
> He blatantly admitted to Naruto that they were best friends before their fight. He really hasn't shown any form of aversion or shyness in telling people what he thinks of them be that for good or ill. You all are just trying to make up this fantasy version of a Sasuke that cares about romantic pursuits.



He blatantly admitted that Sakura is a precious person to him too and was ready to throw his life away to save her.
No one is saying he is shy. He does what's best for his goal. Sasuke lies. He says he doesn't care and pretends he doesn't care. He thinks it's better if he doesn't care because he thinks it's the best way to do the job but he lies and he still cares.




Seto Kaiba said:


> His ambitions since you forgot, he felt excluded him from forging bonds in general but he did and admitted to them. More than anything that was important to him was the concept of a surrogate family, and he feared it because he feared losing it. Yet still, he found one in his team and came to terms with it. The simple fact is that while Sakura was part of that surrogate family, she was not nearly as close to him or understood him as the others did.



She was not as close? The gaara fight begs to differ. She didn't understand him? Well excuse me Naruto did not understand a thing about him in part1 too and he admitted that himself and Sasuke shouted it in his face too. Kakashi just recently admitted he had NEVER understood Sasuke and that was obvious from the stupid way he handled him after itachi's famous mind rape. Yet she was the only one waiting for him on that gate. Both Naruto and Kakashi told her " Don't worry everything is okay" but she knew better.
Kakashi and Naruto now knows way more than Sakura and it's their fault for keeping things from her.





Seto Kaiba said:


> The curse is metaphorical. It is reference to the fate Uchiha often face in losing themselves in the pursuit of power, as greater power requires experiencing greater traumas, they subject themselves to events that contribute to corrosion of the positive traits of their personality.



Yeah , that's why Kishi has included black zetsu in it now.


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## Hitt (Jun 27, 2014)

It looks like to me at this point SS is just living on a hope of Kishi writing even worse garbage then he has churned out to the point and come up with the biggest asspull ending ever.  Somehow, Sasuke will be getting 100% redeemed, finding a new flare for romance, and Sakura being able to just sweep all of Sasuke's MANY past transgressions with her, which again include multiple murder attempts, under the rug like it never happened.  They'll have tru lub and live happily ever after. 

That's all SS is left with at this point:  Kishi is a horrible writer, and he's fully capable of writing some of the worst pairing melodrama ever seen in any kind of fiction to patch up this oh-so-wonderful paring and somehow make it a reality.

I, however, think that Kishi has ENOUGH decently left to make sure this pairing never comes to fruition and Sakura finally moves on.  As such, I still declare this travesty of a pairing DEAD.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> People should get it by now that the Uchiha curse was mentioned for a reason.


A reason that has nothing to do with the romantic subplot involving Sasuke and Sakura, except maybe, just the slightest of chances it was an afterthought. Like: "I'm going to establish this Uchiha curse thing to explain the rampant obsessions of Obito and Madara, lay the foundations for them being manipulated by black Zetsu to revive Kaguya and also use it as the reason why Tobirama decided to create the Uchiha compound that sectioned off the Uchiha, leading to their coup...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................oh and maybe, if I decide that Sasuke eventually will stop being asexual so that I can have him make Uchiha babies I could use this as a bullshit copout for him to get with practically any female in the seriesSakura."









ch1p said:


> My different view and my pretentiousness comes with solid arguments though.


Your view has merit behind it sure, as does the opposing viewpoint. 




> When has this happened in Naruto? Never.


What does that matter? What precedence really is there for romantic feelings not being able to fade and turn into something just platonic given time and a continual realization that how the person you "love" acts towards you makes you depressed. The only thing you could possibly point to(which don't make your idea that Kishi is unlikely to change Sakura's feelings change any more likely) is unfavorable to you, that being Jiraiya's love for Tsunade, in which the conditions are not the same in that Tsunade never treated him like trash beneath her feet and continually became someone he couldn't approve of. Tsunade's feelings for Dan are not in the same category, considering they were in a loving relationship and then he died, along with her brother dying around the same time. Her inability to move on wasn't stunted just by her love for Dan but by the fact that she couldn't bear to lose someone that close to her again. 

Then theres the issue of Naruto's romantic love for Sakura, though like always to deny your own hypocrisy you'll downplay his feelings. 





> His face looks funny enough to me. The whole chapter is gag after gag. From Madara going    to Hashirama, or with everyone going :amazed  at Sasuke when he says he wants to be Hokage.




I'm not sure in what world that is a funny face in any manner. Though I'm talking to someone who read love into Sasuke's blank expression after he just woke up from a coma. I've already established your inability to understand that both serious and comedic elements can exist within a chapter without neutralizing each other and also that someones feelings being followed by a comedic reaction do not mean said feelings are themselves meant as a joke.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> He blatantly admitted that Sakura is a precious person to him too and was ready to throw his life away to save her.
> No one is saying he is shy. He does what's best for his goal. Sasuke lies. He says he doesn't care and pretends he doesn't care. He thinks it's better if he doesn't care because he thinks it's the best way to do the job but he lies and he still cares.



It can only be argued that at this point he is lying, and even then that's a stretch. The point seems pretty clear is that Naruto is trying to get him to his former self right now. when he left Konoha he was completely frank with them. When he tried to kill them he was frank with them as well. Again, you're trying to make him out to be a guy he's simply not.



> She was not as close? The gaara fight begs to differ. She didn't understand him? Well excuse me Naruto did not understand a thing about him in part1 too and he admitted that himself and Sasuke shouted it in his face too.



No, she wasn't. She could not relate to him on the levels the other two could. He did care about her, but that doesn't mean they were especially close. Naruto was despised by the village and grew up alone, so he knows that pain of being alone. Sasuke himself acknowledged that. What Naruto didn't understand is the feeling of losing family after knowing them, which he does very well now. 



> Kakashi just recently admitted he had NEVER understood Sasuke and that was obvious from the stupid way he handled him after itachi's famous mind rape. Yet she was the only one waiting for him on that gate. Both Naruto and Kakashi told her " Don't worry everything is okay" but she knew better. Kakashi and Naruto now knows way more than Sakura and it's their fault for keeping things from her.



Kakashi lost his parents at a young age, much like Sasuke. Like he too, grew up alone and on top of that lost just about every friend he had to war. Sasuke didn't understand him either. You guys try to make it as if Sasuke is the one that needs to be catered to when while people have come to understand him he can't do the same in turn. He hasn't gone through what Kakashi has, and probably never will. Kakashi however has the knowledge and experience of what types like Sasuke are in danger of becoming, and he knows what it's like to lose family. What Kakashi doesn't understand is what he wants to do with himself now, or his plans.



> Yeah , that's why Kishi has included black zetsu in it now.



As a manipulator of events, not mind control. You are just trying to deny and excuse Sasuke's wrongdoings. The entire rationale behind SasuSaku is dependent on being in denial over his deeds as they are the largest contributor to its negative characteristics.


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## Kage (Jun 27, 2014)

The problem (among many) with Sakura's bond with Sasuke, even within and especially within team seven, is that it lacks impact. It fails to make a lasting impression *exclusive* to the Sakura/Sasuke bond and to Sasuke himself. Why try to argue a few small gestures mean anything when the manga pays no special attention to them? 

1) Did Sasuke smirking at her show of power stop him from considering her useless later? 

No. 

2) Did regarding her as someone precious once for the most part  because they were teammates stop him from trying to kill her later?

No.

3) Did it make him think twice about it? 

No. 

4) Was it ever made a point by Sasuke or _any other character_ (since being "closed off" will be an excuse for the former despite that being BS) that Sakura and *only* Sakura affects him in an unusual or unique way? 

Nope, nope and *nope.*


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

Hitt said:


> It looks like to me at this point SS is just living on a hope of Kishi writing even worse garbage then he has churned out to the point and come up with the biggest asspull ending ever.
> I, however, think that Kishi has ENOUGH decently left to make sure this pairing never comes to fruition and Sakura finally moves on.  As such, I still declare this travesty of a pairing DEAD.



Don't misunderstand. I am against this Black Zetsu thing all the way. I even called Kishi an idiot and bitched about it in the Sasuke FC when it was revealed. I hate this line of plot as much as you and I think it's bad writing. But Kishi has wrote the itachi asspull and I don't think anything is beyond him now. He fucking made a genocide heroic. He called someone who killed his parents while they refused to fight a hero. Ksihi praised someone like itachi as a great brother.

No need to be that worked up dude. I don't care that much about romance. I do prefer SS but I don't really mind if it didn't happen. 

And if it makes you feel better I will shout with you " SS IS DEAD "  but the truth is no matter how you shout it's only dead when the manga proves it. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> It can only be argued that at this point he is lying, and even then that's a stretch. The point seems pretty clear is that Naruto is trying to get him to his former self right now. when he left Konoha he was completely frank with them. When he tried to kill them he was frank with them as well. Again, you're trying to make him out to be a guy he's simply not.



 I am not trying to make him anything that I want. Sasuke still cares and Naruto's smirk last chapter is enough to prove that. If Sasuke is so heartless to the point he doesn't really care anymore Naruto will not be smirking like he knows something about Sasuke's bullshit .

The only things I truly want for Sasuke's character are:

1- For him to show cool kick ass fights ( which I lost hope for because all the current fights Kishi is writing are boring and has barely any strategies and focused more on flashy mecha and bomb like jutsu ) 

2-him actually bringing a new POV that will actually change the shinobi world to the best if it's combined with Naruto's POV like a real yin/yan thing. But I know Kishi is too bad of a writer to do that. It's going to be the same old thing where everyone who doesn't think like Naruto is wrong and Naruto is right. Sasuke will turn into another Naruto cheerleader. It will not  be a real yin/yan thing when it comes to the solution.




Seto Kaiba said:


> No, she wasn't. She could not relate to him on the levels the other two could. He did care about her, but that doesn't mean they were especially close. Naruto was despised by the village and grew up alone, so he knows that pain of being alone. Sasuke himself acknowledged that. What Naruto didn't understand is the feeling of losing family after knowing them, which he does very well now.



So let me get this straight , if I am an orphan who lived a shitty life I should look for a girl that went through something similar to me so she can completely understand what I went through or it will not work?  

Like I said , Naruto and Kakashi failed to see what Sakura did that day and she was the one waiting for at the gate.




Seto Kaiba said:


> Kakashi lost his parents at a young age, much like Sasuke. Like he too, grew up alone and on top of that lost just about every friend he had to war. Sasuke didn't understand him either. You guys try to make it as if Sasuke is the one that needs to be catered to when while people have come to understand him he can't do the same in turn. He hasn't gone through what Kakashi has, and probably never will. Kakashi however has the knowledge and experience of what types like Sasuke are in danger of becoming, and he knows what it's like to lose family. What Kakashi doesn't understand is what he wants to do with himself now, or his plans.



 Kakashi telling Sasuke to forget about punishing someone who killed every single relative he had is the stupidest thing anyone can do. It is his right to get the  crimes committed against his whole family punished. He told him revenge or friends which is stupid because he knows itachi will not stop. He wants Sasuke to pretend like nothing is wrong and wait for itachi to come back again?
Kakashi is the adult of course he's the one who should cater to Sasuke he's his teacher and he failed big time. 
Kakashi didn't say a thing to Shikamaru about darkness when he wanted revenge. He didn't tell him it's either your friends or darkness. Shikamaru was welling to become a missing nin over a his teacher not a whole clan. Kakashi went out of his way to ask for a mission for him too.
I can go more in depth into this if you like but it's OT. If you're interested PM me and I will talk more about it.  



Seto Kaiba said:


> As a manipulator of events, not mind control. You are just trying to deny and excuse Sasuke's wrongdoings. The entire rationale behind SasuSaku is dependent on being in denial over his deeds as they are the largest contributor to its negative characteristics.



I am not in denial at all. I think you really want to paint me a certain way to save your sanity  I think you're the one in denial.
 I actually hope you're right like I said above I hate the whole BZ thing. SS is not dependent on this at all. It is just dependent  on Sasuke's redemption and if what he feels for Sakura can go romantic or not.



Kage said:


> 1) Did Sasuke smirking at her show of power stop him from considering her useless later?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...




1) Does considering her not able to do a thing against a god means he considers her useless all the time?

No , Sasuke is blunt. He thinks Sakura and Kakashi can do nothing against Kaguya and he voices his thoughts for them to stay out of the way. Also , he never did smirk at any other girl.

2) Did itachi's love for his parents stop him from killing them? No Did itachi's love for Sasuke stopped him from turning his life into hell and actually even tamper with his mind? No

Sasuke seeing Sakura as someone worth to die for is enough evidence he cared a lot. " Save Sakura no matter what! " Sasuke seeing Sakura as someone he cares about a lot to throw away his revenge for is enough evidence of how much he cared.

Sasuke only decided to cut bonds when he failed to protect them numerous times and itachi came back to remind him what happens if he didn't do what he was told the day of the massacre.

4) Did the CS regression when it was at full blown control was because of Sakura? Did the ones present , especially ino , not see the effect of her tears on him?

Yes and yes.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Naruto: 2度と…もう2度と…！！2度とサクラちゃんに歯向かうのはよそう……塵にされる…！


Thanks.


> A) This is bizarre plot progression. If Sakura not trusting Sasuke when he displays questionable behaviour even though he joined the alliance is somehow indicative of her feelings being smothering, then that should have happened when Sasuke joined the enemy during the Pain arc or when he attempted to kill her. If it was the case you advocate.


It wouldn't happen during the Pain arc as that was before he tried to kill her, and she had not seen for herself exactly how low he has fallen until she stated how different Sasuke is before he tried to kill her. After the murder attempts you can say that her feelings have changed by 540, and 635 brings to question what she had been thinking in 540. Then there's 675 where I believe Kakashi is saying that her romantic interest in Sasuke has faded.



> B) This is overreaching. Sai said 'because she loves him' thrice just a few weeks before. Sakura's smile may be fake, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love him anymore or loves him any less. They are not the same thing and there's no indication that it could be the same thing.


It really isn't. Just because she wants Sasuke to be a good guy again doesn't mean that she wants anything to do with him romantically. She's aware that if Sasuke were an ideal romantic interest he would have never fallen so far into the darkness in the first place, even going so low as attempting to kill her after he abandoned her. That's why in 540 when the story questions her choice in romantic interests she doesn't think of the old "good" Sasuke at all but a murderous one that is full of rage, and puts her head down in shame. 



> C) If anything this situation is similar to Kishimoto classic: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though she doesn't trust him. Just like in 540: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a nice guy, and like in 675: Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her. This is something we've already seen a million times before, while you're advocating for a new one that we've never seen and without any hints that it could be.


Kakashi's words in 675 proves what I've been thinking if my interpretation of his words is correct. 



> Yes he can be a repetitive offender. Kakashi already acknowledged that Naruto has surpassed the previous Hokages and is acknowledged by everyone several arcs back. Kakashi already acknowledged that Sasuke killed Itachi several arcs back as well. What he says about Sakura isn't new, as much as what he says about Naruto or Sasuke isn't new.


The thing is, Kakashi isn't being a repeated offender as he's actually noticing something new about Sakura in 675 as he's shown to be in deep thought about her. Then he's *guessing* that her feelings have changed. 



> Naruto riles up people often, not just Sakura. Or Kishi likes to make him 'funny'. Show you? Like I told you, read this week's chapter. You think what Naruto did there is serious business? It's not, even though the world's at stake. That's even "worse" than screwing around his father.


The funny thing is that the manga treats it as serious business as what he did was looked as something that worked. Everything he does that makes it seem he's doing something deliberately is actually serious business. He never riles people up deliberately, but really incidentally, unless it's early Part 1 Naruto.


----------



## Kage (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> 1) Does considering her not able to do a thing against a god means he considers her useless all the time?
> 
> No , Sasuke is blunt. He thinks Sakura and Kakashi can do nothing against Kaguya and he voices his thoughts for them to stay out of the way. Also , he never did smirk at any other girl.



None of this is relevant to my point. You're trying to argue a quarter of a panel smirk means anything in the grand scheme of things. I said he still considered her useless despite thus it failed to make a lasting impression.

He smiled at Karin when he first met her, should they plan the wedding?



> 2) Did itachi's love for his parents stop him from killing them? No Did itachi's love for Sasuke stopped him from turning his life into hell and actually even tamper with his mind? No


Itachi is not Sasuke. Itachi's reasons for being a disgusting older brother are not the same reasons Sasuke has attempted to brutally murder Sakura.

But more to the point, now you're trying to justify Sasuke's deplorable behavior by arguing it could be revealed later (cuz it's sure as hell hasn't been implied thus far) he did all those horrible things to Sakura out of love.

_wonderful._



> Sasuke seeing Sakura as someone worth to die for is enough evidence he cared a lot. " Save Sakura no matter what! " Sasuke seeing Sakura as someone he cares about a lot to throw away his revenge for is enough evidence of how much he cared.


"cared"
past tense.

"cared a lot" 
subjective.

"throwing away his revenge for"
Was not what was being stressed in this scene. There are instances it does make it a point to note Sasuke is near throwing away his revenge for something (see Sasuke vs Haku, the aftermath of Sasuke vs Orochimaru in the FoD)



> Sasuke only decided to cut bonds when he failed to protect them numerous times and itachi came back to reminded what happens if he didn't do what he was told the day of the massacre.


And ever since he has had no trouble in particular with treating Sakura like she never mattered because being strong enough to protect her was never his incentive.



> 4) Did the CS regression when it was at full blown control was because of Sakura? Did the ones present , especially ino , not see the effect of her tears on him?
> 
> Yes and yes.


He didn't want her to worry about him. 

Afterwards, he makes her promise not to tell Naruto about the CS because he doesn't want Naruto to worry about him too.

Sasuke's first match after the FoD had his CS flaring again and the image of Sakura *and* Naruto pushes it back. why? because he didn't want them to worry about him.

No special snowflake Sakura tears.
We're still lacking something exclusive.


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## ch1p (Jun 27, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Your view has merit behind it sure, as does the opposing viewpoint.



It doesn't considering all my points are always countered with either nonsense or backslash about SS being the worse pairing ever morally.



> What does that matter? What precedence really is there for romantic feelings not being able to fade and turn into something just platonic given time and a continual realization that how the person you "love" acts towards you makes you depressed. The only thing you could possibly point to(which don't make your idea that Kishi is unlikely to change Sakura's feelings change any more likely) is unfavorable to you, that being Jiraiya's love for Tsunade, in which the conditions are not the same in that Tsunade never treated him like trash beneath her feet and continually became someone he couldn't approve of. Tsunade's feelings for Dan are not in the same category, considering they were in a loving relationship and then he died, along with her brother dying around the same time. Her inability to move on wasn't stunted just by her love for Dan but by the fact that she couldn't bear to lose someone that close to her again.



I'm speaking of feelings in general, not just romantic. People never let them go in Naruto. You and everyone else have failed to produce a single moment where feelings, that mattered, were actually discarded or smoothed down. These have never happened. Even Orochimaru, the monster, was crying at the thought of killing Hiruzen. It's an interesting work, Naruto.



> Then theres the issue of Naruto's romantic love for Sakura, though like always to deny your own hypocrisy you'll downplay his feelings.



You don't know how to separate things, but I'll explain for the umptieth of time. My argument was never that Naruto would stop loving Sakura. My argument was always that Naruto's crush on Sakura isn't important thematically.

The fact that she's a girl 'he kind of likes' is of no consequence and he can bring himself to 'really like' someone else. Naruto can go thinking Sakura is 'not as cute as Haku' until his grave for all the narrative cares. You cannot say the same for Sakura -> Sasuke and Hinata -> Naruto, because they're treated consistently as serious business.

Kakashi states Sakura -> Sasuke is strong, even though Sasuke tried to kill her. Hinata states that she will walk beside him from now on. In contrast Naruto -> Sakura is a vast emptiness.



> I'm not sure in what world that is a funny face in any manner.



But it is funny. 





> Though I'm talking to someone who read love into Sasuke's blank expression after he just woke up from a coma.



And who are you talking to exactly? Not me, certainly, as I've never said Sasuke loved Sakura because of that in any of this thread.



> I've already established your inability to understand that both serious and comedic elements can exist within a chapter without neutralizing each other and also that someones feelings being followed by a comedic reaction do not mean said feelings are themselves meant as a joke.



The problem isn't that NS has comedic moments and serious business moments. This was fine until Hinata's confession and if you knew me at all, you'd know I favoured NS over NH around that time. Indeed, the reason why I dismissed NH was because it simply wasn't consistent. Things changed with the war arc however, NH was then consistent and pandered to, and I was forced to reconsider.

The problem here is NS hasn't been _anything_ since chapter 460. There was a comic relief moment about 175 chapters later but that's it. And even then, even if we look at chapter 460... The whole conodrum of chapter 460 is actually the fruit of something that predates chapter 300. Compare and contrast SS and NH with their yearly (or more) reminders of existance.

In other words, SS / NH are relevant to the plot ATM. NS isn't and won't be.



shikamaru naraS said:


> Don't misunderstand. I am against this Black Zetsu thing all the way. I even called Kishi an idiot and bitched about it in the Sasuke FC when it was revealed. I hate this line of plot as much as you and I think it's bad writing.



This is funny because I have problems with it as well and I've stated it publicaly. Some, like you and I, have the talent to abstract from emotions to make arguments, but others have not.



Elicit94 said:


> Thanks.



At least the NS fans say thanks this time. Last time I provided scripts and raws out of good will all I had was rudeness. 



> It wouldn't happen during the Pain arc as that was before he tried to kill her, and she had not seen for herself exactly how low he has fallen until she stated how different Sasuke is before he tried to kill her.



That's nice, but I was here before the murder attempts. I can tell you, point blank, that NS would say verbatim, the things Sakura said in her confession, would be the reasons why she would quit Sasuke. In fact, there are many who still believe this school of thought, and they are the same who say the confession is genuine. However, those people aren't you, so I'll refrain from continuing this.



> After the murder attempts you can say that her feelings have changed by 540, and 635 brings to question what she had been thinking in 540. Then there's 675 where I believe Kakashi is saying that her romantic interest in Sasuke has faded.



It's not, and that's why point B) and C) are there. See, Sakura said, in her fake confession, that Sasuke left her, Sasuke was joining the enemy, Sasuke was breaking her heart and blah blah blah. Then Naruto said she was lying. So we were made aware that Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he left. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he joined the enemy. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he breaks her heart. Like I said, it's a matter of consistence. You can add up Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a good guy, and Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her. They're all the same, all the exact same. It's consistence. You have provided no counter to why would Kishi break ranks from his established themes.

You say 540 is indicative, but its not. There is no sadness when Sakura says she already has someone she likes or when the guy further interrogates her about the kind of guys she likes. There isn't any sadness when she acknowledges she loves Sasuke. The sadness comes AFTER the guy says Sasuke must be a nice guy. Then Sakura sadly thinks of Sasuke looking evil in the background, giving us the answer that no, Sasuke isn't a nice guy (or at least not at the moment).

You say 675 is indicative, but like I've told you many times the translators don't agree with the 'Sakura's feelings are fading' interpretation. Nor does the narrative of the thing. Kakashi is comparing Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura's childhood antics and goals with their current antics and goals. He speaks how each has worked and is working towards those goals. You think Sakura is somehow the exception? Furthermore, he's comparing her feelings from chapter 4 to chapter 675. Furthermore, you say its redundant for Kakashi to comment if she's in love with him because he already saw that, but you don't think its redundant to point out how her feelings changed when its clear as fucking day that she wasn't a fangirl ever since the _Forest of Death_?



> It really isn't. Just because she wants Sasuke to be a good guy again doesn't mean that she wants anything to do with him romantically.



It does, because Kakashi is linking her wanting to save him and loving him in the same phrases.



> She's aware that if Sasuke were an ideal romantic interest he would have never fallen so far into the darkness in the first place, even going so low as attempting to kill her after he abandoned her.



Yes, Sakura has realised that Sasuke isn't a prince charming. It's the deconstruction of the fangirl into real love. Welcome to SS argument #5. This is actually the #1 of the whole list of Sakira loves Sasuke, even though <insert reason here>. The original. The parent of all of them. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's nothing like the ideal romantic interest, and we know this because of chapter 181 and chapter 459-460.



> That's why in 540 when the story questions her choice in romantic interests she doesn't think of the old "good" Sasuke at all but a murderous one that is full of rage, and puts her head down in shame.



That's nice, but look above about your view is wrong, and surprise! Sasuke is no longer a murderous one that is full of rage either!



> Kakashi's words in 675 proves what I've been thinking if my interpretation of his words is correct.



It's not. The narrative disagrees with you and the translators disagree with you.



> The thing is, Kakashi isn't being a repeated offender as he's actually noticing something new about Sakura in 675 as he's shown to be in deep thought about her. Then he's *guessing* that her feelings have changed.



And that is the problem. It's Kishi's nature to be repetitive and be nauseus about bonds remaining even though everything that has happened. You're giving a "new scenario" that isn't what the guy writes, ever.



> The funny thing is that the manga treats it as serious business as what he did was looked as something that worked. Everything he does that makes it seem he's doing something deliberately is actually serious business. He never riles people up deliberately, but really incidentally, unless it's early Part 1 Naruto.



Naruto has always been a jokster and if its not him, then its Kishi making jokes about something around him. I have no idea why you think he's a serious business 100% kind of guy.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> Don't misunderstand. I am against this Black Zetsu thing all the way. I even called Kishi an idiot and bitched about it in the Sasuke FC when it was revealed. I hate this line of plot as much as you and I think it's bad writing. But Kishi has wrote the itachi asspull and I don't think anything is beyond him now. He fucking made a genocide heroic. He called someone who killed his parents while they refused to fight a hero. Ksihi praised someone like itachi as a great brother.



So?



> No need to be that worked up dude. I don't care that much about romance. I do prefer SS but I don't really mind if it didn't happen.
> 
> And if it makes you feel better I will shout with you " SS IS DEAD "  but the truth is no matter how you shout it's only dead when the manga proves it.



You people are so shortsighted. What does it matter if any of these pairings are dead or not? I care more about the basis of their merits. SasuSaku has the least of them by far. 



> I am not trying to make him anything that I want. Sasuke still cares and Naruto's smirk last chapter is enough to prove that. If Sasuke is so heartless to the point he doesn't really care anymore Naruto will not be smirking like he knows something about Sasuke's bullshit .



Sasuke isn't heartless he's just highly callous and insensitive. 



> So let me get this straight , if I am an orphan who lived a shitty life I should look for a girl that went through something similar to me so she can completely understand what I went through or it will not work?



This was about who understood and/or related to him, not about the qualifications of a prospective mate. Sakura does not understand him. This is a simple fact. 



> Like I said , Naruto and Kakashi failed to see what Sakura did that day and she was the one waiting for at the gate.



Actually Kakashi admitted that he should not have reassured Sakura, and he did feel his words weren't enough to change him. 



> Kakashi telling Sasuke to forget about punishing someone who killed every single relative he had is the stupidest thing anyone can do.



Not when it was consuming Sasuke as it was. 



> It is his right to get the  crimes committed against his whole family punished. He told him revenge or friends which is stupid because he knows itachi will not stop. He wants Sasuke to pretend like nothing is wrong and wait for itachi to come back again?



It isn't his right to harm other people in getting to that point, which is what he did and was planning to do. It is his right to destroy himself over it, but no responsible teacher would encourage that route. Kakashi didn't want to see his favored student become the person he warned Sasuke about. This is stupid question to ask since Kakashi believed Itachi needed to be taken down, but not in the consuming manner Sasuke was going about. 



> Kakashi is the adult of course he's the one who should cater to Sasuke he's his teacher and he failed big time.



No, Sasuke is a petulant child who thinks his tragedies are unique. They aren't. No one, child or adult should have any obligation to cater to him. It just happens he's a strong ninja, so his tantrums do more damage and are harder to contain than the average. 



> Kakashi didn't say a thing to Shikamaru about darkness when he wanted revenge. He didn't tell him it's either your friends or darkness. Shikamaru was welling to become a missing nin over a his teacher not a whole clan. Kakashi went out of his way to ask for a mission for him too.



Probably because Shikamaru was not willing to sell out or abandon his friends and village. Probably because on top of that, Shikamaru desired to protect people from the likes of Akatsuki as well and fulfill his promise to Asuma. He didn't become all-consumed by revenge. 



> I can go more in depth into this if you like but it's OT. If you're interested PM me and I will talk more about it.



I'm not. 



> I am not in denial at all. I think you really want to paint me a certain way to save your sanity  I think you're the one in denial.



Deflection.


----------



## shikamaru naraS (Jun 27, 2014)

Kage said:


> None of this is relevant to my point. You're trying to argue a quarter of a panel smirk means anything in the grand scheme of things. I said he still considered her useless despite thus it failed to make a lasting impression.
> 
> He smiled at Karin when he first met her, should they plan the wedding?



It wasn't a smile after he saw something from her. Sasuke smiled at Sakura because he was able to cheer her up and give her confidence. Sasuke smirked at her when he saw her throw punched so much much power. It's called satisfaction. He smiled at something he liked or was satisfied with. 

Karin had zero influence on Sasuke. While Sakura in part one had positive influence on him.



Kage said:


> Itachi is not Sasuke. Itachi's reasons for being a disgusting older brother are not the same reasons Sasuke has attempted to brutally murder Sakura.
> 
> But more to the point, now you're trying to justify Sasuke's deplorable behavior by arguing it could be revealed later (cuz it's sure as hell hasn't been implied thus far) he did all those horrible things to Sakura out of love.
> 
> _wonderful._



The heck  , I never said Sasuke doing what he did to Sakura was out of love. Zabuza acted like he never cared about Haku but he did. This manga is about how you CAN'T cut bonds. Sasuke still cares even now. It is already proved by Naruto smirked at him like he knows Sasuke is full of bullshit.




Kage said:


> "cared"
> past tense.
> "cared a lot"
> subjective.
> ...



So him actually willingly offering his life to save Sakura doesn't mean him throwing away his revenge?  I guess Sasuke thought he can continue to pursue his revenge from the grave  




Kage said:


> He didn't want her to worry about him.
> 
> Afterwards, he makes her promise not to tell Naruto about the CS because he doesn't want Naruto to worry about him too.
> 
> ...



The one with first match is not the same. It was just starting to activate and he already experienced it once. 

In the FOD it completely took over him and it was the first time he ever experienced it. He was completely warped in it and ready to kill until Sakura hugged him. Everyone there saw her influence on him.
Try as you might to downplay this and the gaara fight but at the end of day you're just applying double standards with " yeah when he saved Naruto he was throwing away his revenge but when he offered his life for Sakura he wasn't."


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## Guest no jutsu (Jun 27, 2014)

Through the course of the manga there were only two events which come to mind where it could be inferred  that Sasuke loved Sakura as more than just a precious a team mate.  

1.The crying that stopped the Cursed Seal in the FoD

2. When he thanked her before leaving (and this is quite weak too) 

Sakura's love for Sasuke can't be questioned. But it takes two to tango, Sasuke is oblivious to romance. I can see a scenario where after all his shit is sorted (doubt it) he passively accepts Sakura as his mate, maybe to repopulate his clan or something but I don't think he loves her at all. Her advances never affected him and when it mattered he never even considered her apart from the FoD example aforementioned. Kishi pulls stuff out of his ass so maybe there will be magical turn of events. At this point anything is possible. 

Being more subjective though this couple would be unmerited, the dynamic between the two is too fucked up. I don't know why there are people still rooting for them. But that's just my opinion.


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## Kage (Jun 27, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> It wasn't a smile after he saw something from her. Sasuke smiled at Sakura because he was able to cheer her up and give her confidence.


Sasuke was not a complete monster.

Not that it matters when he does act like one because we'll just talk about pre-timeskip Sasuke instead.



> Sasuke smirked at her when he saw her throw punched so much much power. It's called satisfaction. He smiled at something he liked or was satisfied with.


Not satisfied enough to save her from drowning in lava.
These little things are not making a impact.



> Karin had zero influence on Sasuke. While Sakura in part one had positive influence on him.


Karin was still someone Sasuke cared about at some point in time and was still able to nearly murder just like Sakura.

Sakura's positive influence didn't give her an edge at all.



> The heck  , I never said Sasuke doing what he did to Sakura was out of love. Zabuza acted like he never cared about Haku but he did. This manga is about how you CAN'T cut bonds. Sasuke still cares even now. It is already proved by Naruto smirked at him like he knows Sasuke is full of bullshit.


Naruto brought up the bridge scene in an attempt to get Sasuke to understand why it was important to him to save the rest of his teammates even if they had nothing to contribute.

"Sasuke-kun is right" Sakura says but she's thanking Naruto for calling Sasuke out on his "bullshit" anyway instead of being grateful Naruto still values her worth as a human being.

Sasuke wasn't bullshitting about not caring what happens to them and that was evident to everybody there.



> So him actually willingly offering his life to save Sakura doesn't mean him throwing away his revenge?  I guess Sasuke thought he can continue to pursue his revenge from the grave



I said that wasn't what was being stressed in that scene and it wasn't.



> The one with first match is not the same. It was just starting to activate and he already experienced it once.


Of course.



> In the FOD it completely took over him and it was the first time he ever experienced it. He was completely warped in it and ready to kill until Sakura hugged him. Everyone there saw her influence on him.


And?

Fast forward many chapters later and Orochimaru, the guy who gave and wanted Sasuke to succumb to the CS, worries only about Naruto's influence on him.

No glory for Sakura again but at least everyone in the forest at the time saw it.



> Try as you might to downplay this and the gaara fight but at the end of day you're just applying double standards with " yeah when he saved Naruto he was throwing away his revenge but when he offered his life for Sakura he wasn't."


I don't have to downplay it. 

SS is still lacking something exclusive.
SS is still lacking something substantial that's happened roughly within the last 8 years or so.
SS is still lacking indisputable proof that Sakura alone makes a difference in Sasuke's life in an unique way.

But surely my double standards are the problem here.


----------



## Elicit94 (Jun 27, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's nice, but I was here before the murder attempts. I can tell you, point blank, that NS would say verbatim, the things Sakura said in her confession, would be the reasons why she would quit Sasuke. In fact, there are many who still believe this school of thought, and they are the same who say the confession is genuine. However, those people aren't you, so I'll refrain from continuing this.


The things she said in her confession and her own witnessing of Sasuke's lowest point would be the reasons why her feelings would start to fade. It's not that what she said about him in her confession didn't matter, but when she sees him for herself it just adds to the whole thing. 



> It's not, and that's why point B) and C) are there. See, Sakura said, in her fake confession, that Sasuke left her, Sasuke was joining the enemy, Sasuke was breaking her heart and blah blah blah. Then Naruto said she was lying. So we were made aware that Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he left. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he joined the enemy. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he breaks her heart. Like I said, it's a matter of consistence. You can add up Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a good guy, and Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her. They're all the same, all the exact same. It's consistence. You have provided no counter to why would Kishi break ranks from his established themes.



You can't expect feelings to just disappear instantaneously. There wasn't really anything that could have happened before the Kage Summit arc that would change how she feels for Sasuke. I believe she was developing romantic feelings for Naruto, but when it comes to her feelings for Sasuke the only thing you can say that would cause her to change her feelings for Sasuke is the absence of him in her life. It's obvious that in this manga, time can only do so much with changing someone's feelings, which is part of the reason why I find it retarded when you people think that Naruto's feelings for Sakura would fade out of nowhere, but I'll leave that for another matter. When Sasuke attempted to murder her, that's when her feelings would definitely start to fade, and it was even acknowledged by the manga that the murder attempts could have changed the way she feels about him (and most likely did).



> You say 540 is indicative, but its not. There is no sadness when Sakura says she already has someone she likes or when the guy further interrogates her about the kind of guys she likes. There isn't any sadness when she acknowledges she loves Sasuke. The sadness comes AFTER the guy says Sasuke must be a nice guy. Then Sakura sadly thinks of Sasuke looking evil in the background, giving us the answer that no, Sasuke isn't a nice guy (or at least not at the moment).


So you're saying that she wouldn't be thinking about the negativity that surrounds SS before that guy appeared? In fact, you don't even get to see most of her facial expressions, and she probably felt sad deep down anyway. 



> You say 675 is indicative, but like I've told you many times the translators don't agree with the 'Sakura's feelings are fading' interpretation. Nor does the narrative of the thing. Kakashi is comparing Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura's childhood antics and goals with their current antics and goals. He speaks how each has worked and is working towards those goals. You think Sakura is somehow the exception? Furthermore, he's comparing her feelings from chapter 4 to chapter 675. Furthermore, you say its redundant for Kakashi to comment if she's in love with him because he already saw that, but you don't think its redundant to point out how her feelings changed when its clear as fucking day that she wasn't a fangirl ever since the _Forest of Death_?



I don't understand why you people think he would even be considering that "fangirl" aspect of her love. Most likely he thought of that Sakura as having genuine romantic feelings, and that those genuine romantic feelings have changed. In fact, she has liked him since she was 6 years old, so her feelings then would definitely be genuine, and there is really no solid proof that her love "matured" other than fan speculation. 

He stated that she still cared about him because of kindness rather than "matured feelings". He doesn't give a darn about Sakura's goal to be with Sasuke, and was even shown to be unsupportive of it back in chapter 4. 



> Yes, Sakura has realised that Sasuke isn't a prince charming. It's the deconstruction of the fangirl into real love. Welcome to SS argument #5. This is actually the #1 of the whole list of Sakira loves Sasuke, even though <insert reason here>. The original. The parent of all of them. Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's nothing like the ideal romantic interest, and we know this because of chapter 181 and chapter 459-460.



But he always was the ideal romantic interest in her mind? Her interest in him was always incredibly shallow. He was the cool authoritative loner with good looks and that was enough to make her see him as the ideal romantic interest despite him being a complete asshole. It's after he goes so low as to try and murder her that she must put her head down in shame.



> That's nice, but look above about your view is wrong, and surprise! Sasuke is no longer a murderous one that is full of rage either!



You think she can't forget the fact that he tried to murder her even when he changes for the better? These things have a deep impact on your soul that lasts forever, especially considering the fact that she even thought he hated her when she confessed to him. 



> And that is the problem. It's Kishi's nature to be repetitive and be nauseus about bonds remaining even though everything that has happened. You're giving a "new scenario" that isn't what the guy writes, ever.


But that's exactly what he's doing. Kakashi wouldn't guess that her feelings have changed if he's repeating the same shit. 



> Naruto has always been a jokster and if its not him, then its Kishi making jokes about something around him. I have no idea why you think he's a serious business 100% kind of guy.


Naruto has never had a poker face while he was joking?


----------



## Revolution (Jun 28, 2014)

@Shikamaru naraS, Karin did being out something in Sasuke that unlocked control of Amatersu, learning how to extinguish the flames.  Through her, he gained a stronger power.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 28, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It doesn't considering all my points are always countered with either nonsense or backslash about SS being the worse pairing ever morally.


I'm not sure how viewing constant negative portrayal of a pairing as a sign of the author not heading down that road is "nonsense" but to each their own. I always accompany my outright disgust of the pairing with sound arguments, so you must mean some of the NS debaters here. 




> I'm speaking of feelings in general, not just romantic. People never let them go in Naruto. You and everyone else have failed to produce a single moment where feelings, that mattered, were actually discarded or smoothed down. These have never happened. Even Orochimaru, the monster, was crying at the thought of killing Hiruzen. It's an interesting work, Naruto.


You are basically trying to force the message of bonds that Kishi is going for to stick Sakura forever into her romantic love for Sasuke....yeah no. The message about bonds is focused on the idea that once you care about someone you will always care for them even if just a little. Orochimaru works more against your argument then for. He may feel slight remorse at killing Hiruzen but the fact of the matter is, he still goes through with killing him and leading an invasion on his once home town village. He doesn't care enough about them now to not kill them mercilessly(he used Edo Tensei against Hiruzen mainly to torture him by having him fight his former senseis). The same has happened with Sasuke. While we never saw how strong the bonds between Oro and others were prior to him leaving we did see Sasuke's and his feelings have gone beyond just being smoothed down. He genuine barely cares about them beyond what value they offer him in battle.

Twisting "once you care about someone you will always care about them even if just a little" into "if you are romantically in love with someone it will always stay that way" is just pushing your agenda, nothing more, nothing less. Trying to force proof by precedent in a series that doesn't have much focus on romance is also a really weak argument nor does any possible precedent mean that its highly unlikely for the author to veer from how he handled other cases. 

Sakura continuing to love him also doesn't stop her from deciding that even if she does love him she can't be in a relationship with him. 



> You don't know how to separate things


I know how to recognize double standards, tis all.




> My argument was never that Naruto would stop loving Sakura. My argument was always that Naruto's crush on Sakura isn't important thematically.


Yet you just made the argument of how bonds in general are not discarded or "smoothed down". 



> The fact that she's a girl 'he kind of likes' is of no consequence




Are you seriously trying to use his feelings from the first few chapters to describe his feelings now?



> and he can bring himself to 'really like' someone else.


As can Sakura. As I said, you'll downplay his feelings as a crush when they have been blatantly indirectly stated to be love. 



> Naruto can go thinking Sakura is 'not as cute as Haku' until his grave for all the narrative cares.


Is this supposed to be some kind of awkward joke? Maybe you are confusing Naruto for Sakura here, shes the one with a predominant shallow attraction. 



> You cannot say the same for Sakura -> Sasuke and Hinata -> Naruto, because they're treated consistently as serious business.


As I've explained before, its much less that they are treated as "serious business" then the character dynamics are different. Naruto --> Sakura is more lighthearted because Naruto is lighthearted. They interact much more on a regular basis, in standard settings. They know each other much better on a personal level than any of the other pairs do. Sakura --> Sasuke is melodramatic in large part due to the fact that you know, he went over to the evil side for a long while which was tied to the main plot. There is no room for lightheartedness there, not only would it be out of place given the path Sasuke is going down it doesn't fit Sasuke's or Sakura's personality(at least not Sakura's when it comes to Sasuke, shes never actually been her true self around him). Hinata ---> Naruto happens at most only every 50-100 chapters when Hinata forces herself into a dire situation/is in one, comedy doesn't work with those scenes. Though prior to her confession, the pairing was used for some slight comic relief with Hinata's fainting.




> But it is funny.


The way his serious face looks may be humorous to you but that doesn't mean hes making a joke. There is nothing indicating him joking from his expression or body language. No smile/smirk, no shifting of the eyes, no body movements really whatsoever. Its a clear straight face.   




> And who are you talking to exactly? Not me, certainly, as I've never said Sasuke loved Sakura because of that in any of this thread.


You have argued that Naruto "backed off" in that scene because he read reciprocation into Sasuke's actions. Thats pretty much the same thing, especially considering your argument based on "why would his reaction to Sakura hugging Sasuke be stronger now than in Wave arc" had the super glaring hole in it that you know, feelings grow stronger with further interaction and time. 




shikamaru naraS said:


> 2) Did itachi's love for his parents stop him from killing them? No Did itachi's love for Sasuke stopped him from turning his life into hell and actually even tamper with his mind? No




The situations aren't remotely comparable. Agree or disagree with his decision, Itachi killed his family to stop them from starting a civil war. Sasuke tried to kill Sakura because he felt like doing it. You can't really argue self defense when he was going to backstab her when she went to heal Karin(doesn't matter too much whether or not he sensed her intentions prior to that) and also the fact that he is much more powerful than her and he knows this. Killing Sakura does nothing to help further his goals, so if he cared about her then he'd just knock her out or just straight up leave(its not like she could follow his superior speed, especially when he has a hawk summon).


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## Elicit94 (Jun 28, 2014)

Warning: Being incredibly bias may cause blindness or delusional tendencies.



Looks like Sakura was a girl that he only kind of liked, and he started to let go of his measly crush during that hospital hug.


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## Corvida (Jun 28, 2014)

> I don't understand why you people think he would even be considering that "fangirl" aspect of her love



That-is-precisely-what-he-is-doing-while-remembering-Sakura-introducing herself-remember how his flashback of that intro ended? *KYAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!*




> Most likely he thought of that Sakura as having genuine romantic feelings, and that those genuine romantic feelings have changed. In fact, she has liked him since she was 6 years old, so her feelings then would definitely be genuine, and there is really no solid proof that her love "matured" other than fan speculation. [


 
No it?s not fan speculation, its called part one. When team seven ended forming a team and all that..



> He doesn't give a darn about Sakura's goal to be with Sasuke, and was even shown to be unsupportive of it* back in chapter 4. *



Oh so we now DECIDE to remember chapter 4, when Kakshi met his rookies? When Kakashi definitely didnt like the new material and his new team  and almost decided to not to less them pass?

By the time of the Iron land fiasco he gives fucks enoughs, and by the time he reviews the times he met his team seven, he simply repeats it verbatim.HE HAS ASSUMED IT as a fact


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 28, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> So?



That wasn't for you.Thought the quote that isn't yours would make it clear. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> Sasuke isn't heartless he's just highly callous and insensitive.



Sasuke is about the mission. It's learned from itachi.  



Seto Kaiba said:


> This was about who understood and/or related to him, not about the qualifications of a prospective mate. Sakura does not understand him. This is a simple fact.



And I repeat Naruto and Kakashi both admitted they don't understand him. Kakashi now and Naruto back then. They brushed over clear signs not to mention that Oro made a special trip just to tell Kakashi he's going to take Sasuke and Kakashi stupidly leaves Sasuke alone after what happened knowing quite well Oro can waltz easily back to Konoha like he did the first time.All that after Sasuke received a horrid mental torture that put him in a coma for a long time.  as usual he leaves things irresponsibly. 
Naruto , even after Sakura explained everything to him also naively promises that everything is going to be okay.

Sakura , even with assurance from Naruto believed in her heart who knew with no doubt Sasuke will leave that day. She was there waiting for him. Funny how she didn't need to loose her parents or be an orphan or have a crazy brother to torture her to empathize and even predict what he might do because of what happened to him recently.   



Seto Kaiba said:


> Actually Kakashi admitted that he should not have reassured Sakura, and he did feel his words weren't enough to change him.



Kakashi's fault is not that he couldn't change Sasuke's mind. Kakashi's fault comes from his words and his impossible demand. Kakashi's fault comes from knowing Sasuke is targeted by Oro and he's mentally unstable coming out from a horrid mental torture and yet leaves him alone as an easy pray. What Kakashi needed to say was that he too lost many people and can relate to Sasuke. That's why he will train Sasuke to master the CS and  train his sharingan then convince Tsunade to give him a mission to kill itachi when the time comes. But that on one condition , they want to help him too. But instead Kakashi asks for the impossible "*forget * your revenge and play with your friends even though just a day  before I talked to you , you were comatose because that man almost kidnapped your best friend , beat you half to death , put you under the most horrible mental torture , told you you're worthless and put you in a coma that can only be cured by some legendary ninja who almost died on the way to heal you "

Kaashi should have been more like Jiraya. Kyuubi was a dark power that needed Naruto to master it so he can defend himself against the people targeting him "Akatsuki". Kakashi shouldn't have forbidden Sasuke to use CS he should have trained him to control it and guide him to defend himself against Oro and itachi instead of telling him to forget that itachi needs to be punished.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Not when it was consuming Sasuke as it was.



He was just out of a coma caused by mental torture. Kakashi expect Sasuke to think straight and act completely normal after that? Sasuke needed someone to tell him that it can work if he stayed but all Kakashi told him is that he's not allowed to punish itachi and he should just forget about it or he's bad and will end up in darkness. 
Kakashi should have known it's impossible for Sasuke ( Or anyone ) to forget about punishing the criminal who killed every single person in their family specially when he came back for more. What did Kakashi expect? Sasuke waiting for itachi to kill him ? Kidnap Naruto? Keep torturing him? What exactly? How can he forget when itachi will NOT leave him alone?



Seto Kaiba said:


> It isn't his right to harm other people in getting to that point, which is what he did and was planning to do. It is his right to destroy himself over it, but no responsible teacher would encourage that route. Kakashi didn't want to see his favored student become the person he warned Sasuke about. This is stupid question to ask since Kakashi believed Itachi needed to be taken down, but not in the consuming manner Sasuke was going about.



Sasuke wasn't harming people back then. Sasuke asked for a fight with Naruto. He wasn't planing on killing him. Itachi treated Sasuke like nothing but he was interested in Naruto then itachi mentally tortured sasuke for days. It is an expected reaction for Sasuke to want to prove himself against Naruto ( like Naruto used to pick fights with him for the same reason ) but then it was Naruto who used rassengan first and Sasuke had to use chidori to counter. It wasn't Sasuke who used the deadly jutsu first it was Naruto. Both didn't mean to harm each other. Both wanted to prove their worth.
Sasuke was no different from Shikamaru here. His tragedy was much much harder to take than Shikamaru and it was worsened by the mental torture. 
I think Kakashi learned his lesson from what happened to Sasuke and he tried to be more supportive to shikamaru so they will not loose him like they lost Sasuke.




Seto Kaiba said:


> They aren't. No one, child or adult should have any obligation to cater to him.



Yeah , a traumatized and mentally tortured child  should be left alone. You're right , no one has any obligation to cater to him or actually help him. He should either act normal and pretend nothing is bothering him and that everything is perfectly fine or he should just fuck off because if he can't act normal that means he's bad.  



Kage said:


> Not satisfied enough to save her from drowning in lava.
> These little things are not making a impact.



That's what you want to see from this page. Kishi drew Sasuke after summoning the hawk in two panels. One he was looking in another direction and after he saw something he looked the other way and went to Naruto. Naruto didn't see what happened and shouted at Sasuke " Not me! " but then he looked and saw Kakashi and Sakura are safe and he asked " How? " and Kishi specifically let Sasuke explain the "how" even though he currently was NOT facing Kakashi and Sakura. Naruto who was facing them didn't see how they were saved but Sasuke magically saw. Either Sasuke has byakugan and can see 360 or he actually looked towards them first which is why Kishi drew him in two different panels looking different ways and saw what Kakashi was about to do so he went for Naruto instead because he knew Kakashi got this.

Kishi specifically made Sasuke explain what Kakashi did even though his back was to them. He specifically showed you that Naruto didn't see what happened even though he was facing them to tell you Sasuke saw them before he grabbed Naruto. It's why Naruto was smirking. Sasuke explaining things got the message to him but not to Sakura. Sakura still thinks Sasuke hates her. Kishi will stress this till it will be revealed that Sasuke care even though he claims otherwise. 

But you people like to see what you want. Like you saw Sasuke trying to kill Sakura when she attacked Madara 



Kage said:


> Sakura's positive influence didn't give her an edge at all.



Sakura is the only girl who managed to stop Sasuke from doing something bad with a hug and some tears. Like I said downplay it as much as you want. She's the only girl to do that.



Kage said:


> I said that wasn't what was being stressed in that scene and it wasn't.



You think Kishi will repeat the " Naruto I will not be able to kill itachi if I do this but for Sakura I will do it"
It was there clearly , it didn't need to be stressed because by then in the manga everyone knew Sasuke lived for revenge but in the haku fight we didn't know. All we knew is that Sasuke wanted to kill someone so Kishi made Sasuke say it to Naruto before he died.
Sasuke was clearly ready to thorw his revenge and life to save Sakura. He was urgent " save Sakura no matter what"

Again try to downplay as much as you like it will not change what there in the manga.



Kage said:


> Fast forward many chapters later and Orochimaru, the guy who gave and wanted Sasuke to succumb to the CS, worries only about Naruto's influence on him.
> 
> No glory for Sakura again but at least everyone in the forest at the time saw it.



Naruto's influence is stressed while speaking about everyone in this manga because he's the main character that doesn't mean the others had no influence. Shikamaru's dying thoughts were of Naruto and he wanted to come back to life because he wanted to be his advicer. There wasn't any thought of Chouji/ino/his own mother but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to live for them too.



Kage said:


> SS is still lacking something exclusive.
> SS is still lacking something substantial that's happened roughly within the last 8 years or so.
> SS is still lacking indisputable proof that Sakura alone makes a difference in Sasuke's life in an unique way.
> 
> But surely my double standards are the problem here.



Your double standards are a problem for the debate but not for SS. 

Sakura is the only girl who stopped Sasuke from doing something bad/dark. ( you arguing she couldn't do it later on is of no importance because even Naruto couldn't do it later ( Sasuke was the longest man on earth to fight the TNJ  ) even though Naruto is known as mister Jesus prophecy boy so plot clearly gives him advantage over everyone that doesn't mean he's everyone's love interest  since you love to compare your sasunaru with SS )

Sakura is the only girl Sasuke showed satisfaction towards. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around. Sakura is the only bond that has nothing to do with power. 

It's all there but if you want to pretend it's not there then it's fine by me. We will never see eye to eye then.



Sarahmint said:


> @Shikamaru naraS, Karin did being out something in Sasuke that unlocked control of Amatersu, learning how to extinguish the flames.  Through her, he gained a stronger power.



Sorry Sarah , this wasn't for Karin. If you remember , Taka working together reminded Sasuke of team7. He closed his eyes and saw team seven and viola! Emotional amaterasu. Team7 memory was what triggered it not Karin.

Karin is yet to stop Sasuke from doing anything dark or wrong. She follows him blindly and has zero effect on him.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 28, 2014)

The problem with the fan girl perspective is that you have to assume that he's viewing her as a fan girl rather than a girl who is madly in love. Also, if he could have been saying that her feelings have matured, he wouldn't have to *guess* that her feelings have changed into that as that should have been obvious to him during the Kage Summit arc when it was repeatedly stated and implied that her love "matured". He saw a girl who was madly in love with Sasuke and now not so much if at all.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 28, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> The problem with the fan girl perspective is that you have to assume that he's viewing her as a fan girl rather than a girl who is madly in love. Also, if he would have saying that her feelings have matured, he wouldn't have to *guess* that her feelings have changed into that as that should have been obvious to him during the Kage Summit arc when it was repeatly stated and implied that her love "matured". He saw a girl who was madly in love with Sasuke and now not so much if at all.



Onaji Suki. It's the same love. It's romantic love. What changed is her idolizing him. Before she loves the perfect image she thought of Sasuke. During part1 she saw his good side and not so perfect side and loved him even more then  , she saw him as a human. She can't cut off/ forget / get over that Sasuke and her love for him so she makes it her duty to save him from darkness.


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## ch1p (Jun 28, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> The things she said in her confession and her own witnessing of Sasuke's lowest point would be the reasons why her feelings would start to fade. It's not that what she said about him in her confession didn't matter, but when she sees him for herself it just adds to the whole thing.



And it still didn't matter. Since you didn't drop the bone I so charmingly threw away, tell me, how is Sakura going to fall in love with Naruto? What will be the reason? What's going to be, the 'thing' that will cement it? Because we've gone through everything your fandom has defended as the 'things' and Sakura still loves Sasuke and not Naruto.



> You can't expect feelings to just disappear instantaneously.



I don't. Which is why I ask you. How is Sakura going to drop liking Sasuke when she has implied, a day or so ago mangatime, that she loves him? That two weeks (or even less) before, as Sai put it, Sakura loves him so much she decided to kill him?



> There wasn't really anything that could have happened before the Kage Summit arc that would change how she feels for Sasuke. I believe she was developing romantic feelings for Naruto, but when it comes to her feelings for Sasuke the only thing you can say that would cause her to change her feelings for Sasuke is the absence of him in her life. It's obvious that in this manga, time can only do so much with changing someone's feelings, which is part of the reason why I find it retarded when you people think that Naruto's feelings for Sakura would fade out of nowhere, but I'll leave that for another matter. When Sasuke attempted to murder her, that's when her feelings would definitely start to fade, and it was even acknowledged by the manga that the murder attempts could have changed the way she feels about him (and most likely did).



There are plenty of reasons, not just distance. Sakura's a teenager and love at that age is usually very strong but fleeting. He left for three years. He didn't come home when he was supposed to (after defeating Orochimaru and Itachi). He joined a criminal organization. He attacked innocent people. Those are many reasons to why she could have moved on even before the murder attempts. _This was NarSak's argument before the deed._ I remember it very well. Yet she didn't.

The murder attempts are no different from these reasons. Sakura could have moved on because of them, but the truth is that she didn't. You believe in this or that, but what the narrative shows is completely different. 540 implies Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a nice guy. In fact, it goes well in establishing its not loving him that's the problem, its the fact that he's ebil. Then there's Kakashi saying Sakura loves Sasuke despite what he did to her as well, and even goes as far as to say she still wants to help him and classify her as kind.

Your attempt to twist 540, 635 and 675, claiming Sakura is moving on from Sasuke. However, that has no narrative value. You believe in it, but there's nothing in the text that supports your idea. Sakura's upset Sasuke's ebil in 540 and 635, but that's not different from her thoughts in Iron Country arc, and she still loved him there. Furthermore, being upset at him being ebil has no weight in the strenght of her romantic feelings. Kakashi said it 'Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he tried to kill her'.

However, you cannot disguise your true intent. If Sakura forgives Sasuke for attempting to kill her and yet still loves him and him alone, what's _left_ in the narrative for ASS and for NS? For ASS? Sasuke's not going to sink that low again and in consequence he cannot top what he did, so you cling to the murder attempts. There is this false outrage about the morality of the thing , but if you don't understand that forgiving murderers is everyday's bread in the narutoverse, then you haven't been reading long and you understand nothing about what you're reading. For NS? There is no bad situation for Sasuke to go through and there is no good situation for Naruto to go through, that they haven't already gone through. Yet Sakura still loves Sasuke despite all the negatives and she doesn't love Naruto despite all the positives.

You cling hard to the murder attempts, because if you acknowledge that in the end they won't sway Sakura's feelings, there's nothing left. This is hillarious lately, because looking back, Kishi has made sure that the murder attempts don't matter for both sides. On one hand, Kishi cleaned up the Uchiha in general with that stupidity about Curse of Hatred that makes them go cray or Black Zetsu manipulating all their moves and forcing their hand. He made good people kill their friends and family for the sake of goals (Hashirama's 'I'll kill my own child if I have to' is the strongest thematically and he's undoubtly a hero even if we debate that the ends don't justify the means all we want). All of this excuses Sasuke being a dick, he was cray with grief, he was the byproduct of Zetsu's manipulation. Oh yeah, he's gonna 'repent' because of this or that (I sincerily hope that he will at least repent, but from the looks of it we may not even have that), but he's still going to be excused. On the other hand, Kishi made sure to make Kakashi state that Sakura loves Sasuke _even though he tried to kill her_, that she cannot throw him away, that she wants to help him and called her kind for it.



> So you're saying that she wouldn't be thinking about the negativity that surrounds SS before that guy appeared? In fact, you don't even get to see most of her facial expressions, and she probably felt sad deep down anyway.



Yes, I'm saying that. You may think she probably thought this or that, but your head canons are not an argument. They didn't happen in the narrative.



> I don't understand why you people think he would even be considering that "fangirl" aspect of her love.



Because that's what's being compared.  Those are the scenes being compared, chapter 4 and chapter 675. You want to compare chapter 181, but that's not what happened. What's happening is Kakashi comparing Sakura's silly chapter 4 antics with chapter 675.



> Most likely he thought of that Sakura as having genuine romantic feelings, and that those genuine romantic feelings have changed.



You may think he probably thought this or that, but your head canons are not an argument. They didn't happen in the narrative.



> In fact, she has liked him since she was 6 years old, so her feelings then would definitely be genuine, and there is really no solid proof that her love "matured" other than fan speculation.



Kishi himself has stated Sakura loves Sasuke. Your head canon that her feelings didn't mature is only your head canon, and not reflected in the narrative.



> He stated that she still cared about him because of kindness rather than "matured feelings". He doesn't give a darn about Sakura's goal to be with Sasuke, and was even shown to be unsupportive of it back in chapter 4.



Yes, Kakashi does give a darn. And that is what's so good about it. About six months ago, I had this exact same conversation with someone. I reminded that person that if off-hand comments counted, then chapter 4 also counted. They were very adamant they had been a long time ago and haven't been brought up lately, and that Kakashi thought her feelings were negative too. But they were brought back, so they're relevant again and Kakashi now thinks her feelings are positive and even called her kind to go with it. I bit my hand when I remembered it. So good. 



> But he always was the ideal romantic interest in her mind? Her interest in him was always incredibly shallow. He was the cool authoritative loner with good looks and that was enough to make her see him as the ideal romantic interest despite him being a complete asshole. It's after he goes so low as to try and murder her that she must put her head down in shame.



You're quite wrong. Sasuke's prince charming self was shattered a long time ago for Sakura. Sasuke isn't the infalible Uchiha genius that she thought him to be. In several instances, she gets to see him failing. Against Haku, against Rock Lee (and the page before he gets owned is _priceless_ because it builds on this explicitly), against Gaara. Sasuke isn't the wholesome hero that would resist the temptation of the Sound either. Better yet, Sakura was reassured by Kakashi and Naruto that Sasuke was much better than that, yet she knew he really wasn't and that's why she went to wait for him at the village gate. To top it all, Sakura vows to become stronger so she could protect and save Sasuke from darkness. None of these instances is Sakura putting Sasuke as an ideal, that's her clearly acknowledging that he's flawed. She doesn't look at him through rose tinted glasses and all of this was established quite well even before part 1 ended.

Ahaha, put her head down in shame. 



> You think she can't forget the fact that he tried to murder her even when he changes for the better? These things have a deep impact on your soul that lasts forever, especially considering the fact that she even thought he hated her when she confessed to him.



People can forgive without forgetting. It's part of what people call redemption. 

Yeah, yeah, Sakura thought Sasuke hated her in the confession, yet still loved him three years later. You should have seen that as hint number #1231236 that Sakura will love Sasuke, despite <insert reason here>.



> But that's exactly what he's doing. Kakashi wouldn't guess that her feelings have changed if he's repeating the same shit.



It's not. Like I have said, Kakashi is repeating the same shit that already happened with Naruto and Sasuke. We've already known a million times that Naruto wants to be Hokage, wants to surpass the other Hokages and wants to acknowledged. Kakashi himself already stated ARCS BEFORE that Naruto has surpassed the previous Hokages and was even there to acknowledge the whole village acknowledging him. We already know that Sasuke killed Itachi, that happened ARCS ago, as well. Kakashi is repeating things because Kishi loves repetition. Sakura is no different. You want Sakura to be different from the other two for the sake of pairings, not once looking for the cohesion and consistency regarding the other characters.



> Naruto has never had a poker face while he was joking?



Yes, he had. Read this chapter. Either its Naruto trolling by himself, or its Kishi trolling through Naruto. All the same shit that shouldn't be taken seriously.


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## ch1p (Jun 28, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I'm not sure how viewing constant negative portrayal of a pairing as a sign of the author not heading down that road is "nonsense" but to each their own. I always accompany my outright disgust of the pairing with sound arguments, so you must mean some of the NS debaters here.



This is because you have a shallow comprehension of what that portrayal is about.

You can say Kishi can always pull a Kaguya though.  Why would you want to, I will never know though.



> You are basically trying to force the message of bonds that Kishi is going for to stick Sakura forever into her romantic love for Sasuke....yeah no.



It's 675 chapters of this: Sakura loves Sasuke, despite <insert reason here>. You cannot blame me for defending Kishi is consistent and repetitive, because this is one of those examples.



> The message about bonds is focused on the idea that once you care about someone you will always care for them even if just a little. Orochimaru works more against your argument then for. He may feel slight remorse at killing Hiruzen but the fact of the matter is, he still goes through with killing him and leading an invasion on his once home town village. He doesn't care enough about them now to not kill them mercilessly(he used Edo Tensei against Hiruzen mainly to torture him by having him fight his former senseis). The same has happened with Sasuke. While we never saw how strong the bonds between Oro and others were prior to him leaving we did see Sasuke's and his feelings have gone beyond just being smoothed down. He genuine barely cares about them beyond what value they offer him in battle.
> 
> Twisting "once you care about someone you will always care about them even if just a little" into "if you are romantically in love with someone it will always stay that way" is just pushing your agenda, nothing more, nothing less. Trying to force proof by precedent in a series that doesn't have much focus on romance is also a really weak argument nor does any possible precedent mean that its highly unlikely for the author to veer from how he handled other cases.



That's nice, but the nature of the bond has never changed for anyone in the narrative when shit happened.



> Sakura continuing to love him also doesn't stop her from deciding that even if she does love him she can't be in a relationship with him.



That's nice, but I'm not saying Sakura wants a relationship with Sasuke.  I'm saying Sakura loves Sasuke, despite <reason here>.



> I know how to recognize double standards, tis all.



You don't.



> Yet you just made the argument of how bonds in general are not discarded or "smoothed down".



No. I made the argument that Naruto's romantic interest in Sakura never had, has or will have importance to the narrative. There is no discarding or smoothing down here. Like I said, Naruto can go thinking Sakura is a cute girl that he kind of likes to the grave if that's what he wants to do. This will never stop him from having a meaningful relationship with someone else.



> Are you seriously trying to use his feelings from the first few chapters to describe his feelings now?
> 
> As can Sakura. As I said, you'll downplay his feelings as a crush when they have been blatantly indirectly stated to be love.



Yah. Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have remained the exact same in part 1 and part 2. He asks her out on dates randomly or states she's his girlfriend out of a joke. That's pretty much it. Your only 'NO U' moment is Sai's odd flashback, which we know is misinterpreted by Sai by Naruto's own admission. That's because Naruto's feelings are a crush. They rarely have been treated as anything else but a joke.



> Is this supposed to be some kind of awkward joke? Maybe you are confusing Naruto for Sakura here, shes the one with a predominant shallow attraction.



Naruto's only two reasons stated for liking Sakura is because 'she's a cute girl' (not as cute as Haku tho'), and the reason why he's the SS fan number #1. One is as shallow as it can get and the other sinks NS. But its Sakura, who never stated her reasons for liking Sasuke, that is the one with the shallownesss. _Sure_.




> As I've explained before, its much less that they are treated as "serious business" then the character dynamics are different. Naruto --> Sakura is more lighthearted because Naruto is lighthearted. They interact much more on a regular basis, in standard settings. They know each other much better on a personal level than any of the other pairs do. Sakura --> Sasuke is melodramatic in large part due to the fact that you know, he went over to the evil side for a long while which was tied to the main plot. There is no room for lightheartedness there, not only would it be out of place given the path Sasuke is going down it doesn't fit Sasuke's or Sakura's personality(at least not Sakura's when it comes to Sasuke, shes never actually been her true self around him). Hinata ---> Naruto happens at most only every 50-100 chapters when Hinata forces herself into a dire situation/is in one, comedy doesn't work with those scenes. Though prior to her confession, the pairing was used for some slight comic relief with Hinata's fainting.



That doesn't counter what I said. What I said and I will quote here:

"The problem isn't that NS has comedic moments and serious business moments. This was fine until Hinata's confession and if you knew me at all, you'd know I favoured NS over NH around that time. Indeed, the reason why I dismissed NH was because it simply wasn't consistent. Things changed with the war arc however, NH was then consistent and pandered to, and I was forced to reconsider.

The problem here is NS hasn't been anything since chapter 460. There was a comic relief moment about 175 chapters later but that's it. And even then, even if we look at chapter 460... The whole conodrum of chapter 460 is actually the fruit of something that predates chapter 300. Compare and contrast SS and NH with their yearly (or more) reminders of existance.

In other words, SS / NH are relevant to the plot ATM. NS isn't and won't be."



> The way his serious face looks may be humorous to you but that doesn't mean hes making a joke. There is nothing indicating him joking from his expression or body language. No smile/smirk, no shifting of the eyes, no body movements really whatsoever. Its a clear straight face.



If NS wasn't mostly a joke these days, you'd have a relevant scene in this war, where Naruto's love for Sakura is pointed out without being a joke. Indeed if that was the case, you wouldn't be clinging at this so hard at this if you actually had any proof to counter the point I accuse of above.

All you and NS has are jokes. The day Naruto's feelings for Sakura are stated again with seriousness, I will consider them. Until then that scene is a joke for shits and giggles, because that's what it is, a joke. I've done that for NH and I reconsidered my position (and I hated that one way more than I could ever do for NS). I can do it for NS as well.



> You have argued that Naruto "backed off" in that scene because he read reciprocation into Sasuke's actions. Thats pretty much the same thing, especially considering your argument based on "why would his reaction to Sakura hugging Sasuke be stronger now than in Wave arc" had the super glaring hole in it that you know, feelings grow stronger with further interaction and time.



No. What I have argued (seriously) is that whatever reason why Naruto backed off was because of Sasuke, and that you cannot dispute. This is because Naruto has already seen Sakura express her feelings for Sasuke a million times before and that didn't make him back off.  This is also because Naruto's attention is on Sasuke's face and expression, not Sakura. I'll repeat, whatever Naruto saw in Sasuke was what made him back off. I have never stated (seriously) that it was because he acknowledged Sasuke loved Sakura. Like I said, you have no idea who you're talking to.



Elicit94 said:


> Warning: Being incredibly bias may cause blindness or delusional tendencies.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Yes, incredibly bias may cause blidness and delusional tendencies. It's like the world stopped at chapte 3 for NarSak.  You cannot see the rest of the manga or even Sakura or Hinata's feelings and you think they're actually portrayed as _less_ than Naruto.

And lol at 'Naruto loving Sakura more than a crush at the hospital scene' statement. You think its about him for what reason? Blind and delusional reasons no doubt. Tsunade has no idea Naruto likes Sakura 'that way', she hasn't seen him putting the moves on her, all he has seen is him telling her 'i brought a medic' and that's it. Did Naruto tell Tsunade 'there's this cute girl that I kind of like' offpanel? 

You know what Tsunade has seen _onpanel_? The flowers Sakura brought, with her acknowledging that Sakura is visiting Sasuke every day. Sakura's gentle and polite request to help Sasuke, with Tsunade smiling reassuringly and saying everything will be fine. Sakura's tears falling down her face as Sakura watches her heal Sasuke, then Sakura hugging Sasuke in relief and _whatever_ his reaction to that is. To the point of Tsunade comparing Sakura's love for Sasuke to the same she had for Dan, when she requests an apprenticeship from her.

Tsunade is also smiling when Naruto leaves. You think she's going to smile because of his heartbreak? How cruel of Tsunade if that's the case.


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## Corvida (Jun 28, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the fan girl perspective is that you have to assume that he's viewing her as a fan girl rather than a girl who is madly in love. Also, if he would have saying that her feelings have matured, he wouldn't have to *guess* that her feelings have changed into that as that should have been obvious to him during the Kage Summit arc when it was repeatly stated and implied that her love "matured". He saw a girl who was madly in love with Sasuke and now not so much if at all.
> ...


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 28, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This is because you have a shallow comprehension of what that portrayal is about.


Actually, its more the opposite. The ones with shallow comprehension merely look at the "she still loves him" while ignoring the context of the scenes.



> It's 675 chapters of this: Sakura loves Sasuke, despite <insert reason here>. You cannot blame me for defending Kishi is consistent and repetitive, because this is one of those examples.


It was around 470 chapters of so of that without much change in her view of her own love. Since Iron Country it has been consistently brought up how negative her feelings are for him. Its being hammered home quite strongly.



> That's nice, but the nature of the bond has never changed for anyone in the narrative when shit happened.


I see your bent on repeating this absurd argument that also would keep friendship from going to romantic love.



> That's nice, but I'm not saying Sakura wants a relationship with Sasuke.  I'm saying Sakura loves Sasuke, despite <reason here>.


I bring the point up due to it having relevance to the main point of this thread, which is discussing the likelihood of any of these pairings happening. 




> You don't.


I didn't expect you to admit it. 




> Yah. Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura have remained the exact same in part 1 and part 2. He asks her out on dates randomly or states she's his girlfriend out of a joke. That's pretty much it. Your only 'NO U' moment is Sai's odd flashback, which we know is misinterpreted by Sai by Naruto's own admission. That's because Naruto's feelings are a crush. They rarely have been treated as anything else but a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto's only two reasons stated for liking Sakura is because 'she's a cute girl' (not as cute as Haku tho'), and the reason why he's the SS fan number #1. One is as shallow as it can get and the other sinks NS. But its Sakura, who never stated her reasons for liking Sasuke, that is the one with the shallownesss. _Sure_.


See this is what I mean by the double standards. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were just a crush early on now that SS has changed its tune due to Kakashi's statement, yet became "love" by late part 1. Yet there is this insistence that Naruto's feelings, which started at the same level as Sakura's, didn't change to love as hers did without any reason given for why they shouldn't have. Naruto's two stated reasons for being drawn to her were before he actually even spent any real time in her company and we'd need a confession from him for his reasons for his crush turning into love. Sakura on the other hand had a confession yet we get nothing as for reasons why she "loves" him, we do however have her talking about how she thinks he hates and that he never talks to her. Throughout all of part 1 Sasuke displays no real unique personality trait that Sakura is shown to "love", outside of maybe brooding I suppose. That is why I consider it to be an extremely shallow affection, as the girl herself couldn't give any reason for loving him. At least with Hinata she actually gave reasons for her love and they were positive. 

The thing about SS is that it even lacks the very basics of forming any kind of bond. Sakura doesn't enjoy Sasuke's company(never really talks to her, when he does hes rude/dismissive) and he doesn't enjoy hers. Naruto and Sakura on the other hand quite enjoy each others company. While we have yet to hear Naruto's main reasons for loving Sakura, we can at least see why his feelings would grow. The same can't be said for Sakura's. 

Naruto implying that he would confess to Sakura if not for the PoaL is his words, straight from his mouth. There is no need for someone in the manga to interpret that, that is very straightforward. There is no misinterpretation here because the words have no other possible meaning. His feelings for Sakura being love is not what Sai misinterpreted. 




> The problem here is NS hasn't been anything since chapter 460. There was a comic relief moment about 175 chapters later but that's it. And even then, even if we look at chapter 460... The whole conodrum of chapter 460 is actually the fruit of something that predates chapter 300. Compare and contrast SS and NH with their yearly (or more) reminders of existance.
> 
> In other words, SS / NH are relevant to the plot ATM. NS isn't and won't be."


In what ways are NH or SS actually relevant to the plot? SS being relevant to the plot would depend on it playing a large part in Sasuke's redemption, which is yet to be seen. Hinata is only somewhat relevant to the plot in the few times she inspires him, which in functionality matter as much as Sakura's healing of Naruto. You talk of NS as if it is as underdeveloped as SS and NH. The thing is, its the bond that has received the most development. Sakura's feelings towards Naruto have went from near hatred of him to being very close to him. Right now the pairings development is at a standstill as the only real step further it could take is them being an official couple. Before that can happen the stuff with Sasuke has to be resolved first.  





> If NS wasn't mostly a joke these days, you'd have a relevant scene in this war, where Naruto's love for Sakura is pointed out without being a joke. Indeed if that was the case, you wouldn't be clinging at this so hard at this if you actually had any proof to counter the point I accuse of above.


NS doesn't actually need 631. There is no clinging here, just your imagination. The arguments about it may be long because we disagree with your points and find your argument fairly ridiculous but thats basically every argument here.




> Yes, incredibly bias may cause blidness and delusional tendencies. It's like the world stopped at chapte 3 for NarSak.


Thats where you like to pretend it stopped which is evident in this entire reply to me.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 28, 2014)

Even if NS was strictly platonic (which is fucking absurd) their bond would still have more meaning and impact than the other two combined. I don't even like nS that much and it's quite obvious where things are headed.


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## Kage (Jun 28, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> That's what you want to see from this page.


Oh boy.

Sasuke would have no reason to stress why they aren't important and insist Naruto forget about them when he could have settled for reassuring Naruto it seems they were able to take care of themselves so that's why he didn't worry about them. But lying to Naruto about not caring was sure to get him to cooperate. Makes sense. 

He's no longer the jerk with the heart of gold you guys are so desperate for. Not yet anyway. 

You're either pushing the Sasuke of the past or the hypothetical nice Sasuke of the future. How bout we worry about the now? about the Sasuke who is shown to only be interested in defeating a powerful enemy with the only other person he considers important to the cause, which is why the spares could fall in lava for all he cares? no? no.



> But you people like to see what you want. Like you saw Sasuke trying to kill Sakura when she attacked Madara


I see and read what's written on the panels. I don't need to pretend Sasuke is being someone he's not for whatever reason. 

I don't recall ever claiming that but it's nice of you to put words in my mouth for the sake of your already weak argument. If you must know I saw Sasuke not giving a shit whether or not Sakura became collateral damage. I'm sure you're one of those people who thought he actually came to her rescue instead which is a hell of a lot funnier considering Sakura herself broods over Sasuke's lack of giving a fuck and his general dismissive attitude. (but we can't be bothered to take Sakura boo hooing over Sasuke being "naughty" again as indication of anything other than her inability to understand how much he's hiding his deep love for her.)



> Sakura is the only girl who managed to stop Sasuke from doing something bad with a hug and some tears. Like I said downplay it as much as you want. She's the only girl to do that.


Like I said, I don't have to downplay it. The plot hasn't bothered to make this particularly worthy of notice outside the time it happened *nearly a decade ago.* You're free to think it means something special while the manga continues to move on though.



> You think Kishi will repeat the " Naruto I will not be able to kill itachi if I do this but for Sakura I will do it"
> It was there clearly , it didn't need to be stressed because by then in the manga everyone knew Sasuke lived for revenge but in the haku fight we didn't know. All we knew is that Sasuke wanted to kill someone so Kishi made Sasuke say it to Naruto before he died.
> Sasuke was clearly ready to thorw his revenge and life to save Sakura. He was urgent " save Sakura no matter what"
> Again try to downplay as much as you like it will not change what there in the manga.




"Risking his revenge" was involved by risking his life yes but the most important thing being stressed in this fight is that Sasuke didn't want to see anymore of his precious people die and was willing to protect them. It's why he waited until the fight was over and Naruto had won before going over to Sakura himself because saving her _no matter what_ didn't involve abandoning Naruto in the process. 

tbh I just cared not for your flowery language when the scene isn't about throwing away his revenge just for Sakura~

Again, all this time traveling doesn't change what's happening in the manga right now.



> Naruto's influence is stressed while speaking about everyone in this manga because he's the main character that doesn't mean the others had no influence. Shikamaru's dying thoughts were of Naruto and he wanted to come back to life because he wanted to be his advicer. There wasn't any thought of Chouji/ino/his own mother but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to live for them too.



No it doesn't but in the case of Sasuke it's stressed because his influence's matters the most in team seven. Sasuke can't become a better person without him, Sakura's influence is not near as vital.



> Your double standards are a problem for the debate but not for SS.


Nah, the biggest problem for SS in this debate is...well...the manga. I don't have to do much of anything but refer to said manga to get accused of double standards for it.

I'm supposed to apply positive reinforcement not exclusive to Sakura and or SS that happened hundreds of chapters ago to now when the narrative isn't bothering with your specific examples.



> Sakura is the only girl who stopped Sasuke from doing something bad/dark. ( you arguing she couldn't do it later on is of no importance because even Naruto couldn't do it later ( Sasuke was the longest man on earth to fight the TNJ  ) even though Naruto is known as mister Jesus prophecy boy so plot clearly gives him advantage over everyone that doesn't mean he's everyone's love interest  since you love to compare your sasunaru with SS )


I'm arguing her influence lacks long term impact and I'm not wrong. You're the one who refuses to move past events that took place several years ago that has no bearing on the now, that hasn't been noted as particularly special to Sasuke's character or his rehabilitation (Unlike Naruto whom despite his failures continues to be necessary)

Outside the context of team seven, Sakura's influence has near zero effect on Sasuke. Being "the only girl to stop him from the bad thing that one time" doesn't change this simple fact. 

Can we not do the bitterness over Naruto's prominent role in Sasuke's life making Sakura's laughable by comparison thing.



> Sakura is the only girl Sasuke showed satisfaction towards. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around.


do you really expect anyone to take a argument like this seriously...



> Sakura is the only bond that has nothing to do with power.



*Spoiler*: _No_ 













> It's all there but if you want to pretend it's not there then it's fine by me. We will never see eye to eye then.


You're much better at pretending than I'll ever be with compelling evidence such as this


> Sakura is the only girl Sasuke showed satisfaction towards. Sakura is the only girl Sasuke blushed around.


but yeah, agree to disagree looks like.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 28, 2014)

ch1p said:


> And it still didn't matter. Since you didn't drop the bone I so charmingly threw away, tell me, how is Sakura going to fall in love with Naruto? What will be the reason? What's going to be, the 'thing' that will cement it? Because we've gone through everything your fandom has defended as the 'things' and Sakura still loves Sasuke and not Naruto.


How is Naruto going to fall in love with Hinata?

How is Sasuke going to fall in love with Sakura?

How does your interpretation of Sakura's feelings mean she will *never* fall in love with Naruto? Why does NS get these special conditions but not SS or NH? 



> I don't. Which is why I ask you. How is Sakura going to drop liking Sasuke when she has implied, a day or so ago mangatime, that she loves him? That two weeks (or even less) before, as Sai put it, Sakura loves him so much she decided to kill him?


That wasn't a re-confirmation that she still likes him the same way. It's anything but that. Also, I suspect Sakura will still having traces of romantic feelings for Sasuke if she ends up with Naruto, but that have died down tremendously.


> There are plenty of reasons, not just distance. Sakura's a teenager and love at that age is usually very strong but fleeting. He left for three years. He didn't come home when he was supposed to (after defeating Orochimaru and Itachi). He joined a criminal organization. He attacked innocent people. Those are many reasons to why she could have moved on even before the murder attempts. This was NarSak's argument before the deed. I remember it very well. Yet she didn't.


But back then she still had much hope that Sasuke will come back to the team, and she didn't know that he joined a criminal organization or attacked innocent people until the Kage Summit arc. She knew that his goals were in the darkness a long time ago, and after she found out that he defeated Itachi she had no idea what he was doing until the Kage Summit arc.



> The murder attempts are no different from these reasons. Sakura could have moved on because of them, but the truth is that she didn't. You believe in this or that, but what the narrative shows is completely different. 540 implies Sakura loves Sasuke, even though he's not a nice guy. In fact, it goes well in establishing its not loving him that's the problem, its the fact that he's ebil. Then there's Kakashi saying Sakura loves Sasuke despite what he did to her as well, and even goes as far as to say she still wants to help him and classify her as kind.



No, he said that her feelings have changed, and that she still 'cares' about Sasuke even though he tried to kill her. There is no translation that says that she still 'loves' the person that tried to kill her other than takl's which he actually changed to 'care'. Takl's translation doesn't even say that it's the "same love" but instead "love is love" so most likely onaji suki doesn't really translate to what you guys want to believe. 



> However, you cannot disguise your true intent. If Sakura forgives Sasuke for attempting to kill her and yet still loves him and him alone, what's left in the narrative for ASS and for NS? For ASS? Sasuke's not going to sink that low again and in consequence he cannot top what he did, so you cling to the murder attempts. There is this false outrage about the morality of the thing , but if you don't understand that forgiving murderers is everyday's bread in the narutoverse, then you haven't been reading long and you understand nothing about what you're reading. For NS? There is no bad situation for Sasuke to go through and there is no good situation for Naruto to go through, that they haven't already gone through. Yet Sakura still loves Sasuke despite all the negatives and she doesn't love Naruto despite all the positives.



The thing is that because of the murder attempts she most likely will have lost interest in him, or would probably have started to show romantic feelings for Naruto by the time she can forgive him. The longer it takes to get to that point is an advantage to NS. 



> Yes, I'm saying that. You may think she probably thought this or that, but your head canons are not an argument. They didn't happen in the narrative.


I wonder how likely it is for her not to be thinking about the person she likes having attempted murder on her.



> Because that's what's being compared. Those are the scenes being compared, chapter 4 and chapter 675. You want to compare chapter 181, but that's not what happened. What's happening is Kakashi comparing Sakura's silly chapter 4 antics with chapter 675.



I don't really see why he would be seeing her as a fangirl rather than a girl who is madly in love. I'm sure he thought of her as someone that had an incredibly deep infatuation for Sasuke rather than a fucking fangirl. There is nothing in kakashi's words that indicate that he is thinking about her antics.



> Yes, Kakashi does give a darn. And that is what's so good about it. About six months ago, I had this exact same conversation with someone. I reminded that person that if off-hand comments counted, then chapter 4 also counted. They were very adamant they had been a long time ago and haven't been brought up lately, and that Kakashi thought her feelings were negative too. But they were brought back, so they're relevant again and Kakashi now thinks her feelings are positive and even called her kind to go with it. I bit my hand when I remembered it. So good.


Kakashi doesn't think of Sakura's feelings as being negative or positive... he's actually pretty neutral in his view of her feelings. He never saw it as a bad thing, but he definitely saw it as something that was subject to change:



He was never shown to view it as something negative but he definitely never saw it as something positive and something he would be supportive of. I doubt Kakashi would want to say that still loving a murderer that would abandon his comrades is a positive thing, so that's another reason why I find your interpretations to be complete bullshit. 



> You're quite wrong. Sasuke's prince charming self was shattered a long time ago for Sakura. Sasuke isn't the infalible Uchiha genius that she thought him to be. In several instances, she gets to see him failing. Against Haku, against Rock Lee (and the page before he gets owned is priceless because it builds on this explicitly), against Gaara. Sasuke isn't the wholesome hero that would resist the temptation of the Sound either. Better yet, Sakura was reassured by Kakashi and Naruto that Sasuke was much better than that, yet she knew he really wasn't and that's why she went to wait for him at the village gate. To top it all, Sakura vows to become stronger so she could protect and save Sasuke from darkness. None of these instances is Sakura putting Sasuke as an ideal, that's her clearly acknowledging that he's flawed. She doesn't look at him through rose tinted glasses and all of this was established quite well even before part 1 ended.



An ideal love interest cannot have any flaws at all? It doesn't matter if he sees him fail, because she knows instictively that he's usually stronger than his opponents. That's why when she suspected that Sasuke saved her from Gaara she was onto him like a fangirl:

*Spoiler*: __ 









She easily looks past his flaws due to her shallow obsession towards him.





> It's not. Like I have said, Kakashi is repeating the same shit that already happened with Naruto and Sasuke. We've already known a million times that Naruto wants to be Hokage, wants to surpass the other Hokages and wants to acknowledged. Kakashi himself already stated ARCS BEFORE that Naruto has surpassed the previous Hokages and was even there to acknowledge the whole village acknowledging him. We already know that Sasuke killed Itachi, that happened ARCS ago, as well. Kakashi is repeating things because Kishi loves repetition. Sakura is no different. You want Sakura to be different from the other two for the sake of pairings, not once looking for the cohesion and consistency regarding the other characters.


It looks like you're unable to see why he wouldn't be repeating the same shit. 

When he was saying that her feelings have changed, he said that they "probably", or "perhaps" changed to what they are now. He can't be repeating the same shit if he's saying "probably" or "perhaps" because the knowledge that her feelings have "matured" should have been clear to him during the Kage Summit arc.


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## Njaa (Jun 28, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> It was around 470 chapters of so of that without much change in her view of her own love. Since Iron Country it has been consistently brought up how negative her feelings are for him. Its being hammered home quite strongly.



I'm gonna butt in here for a bit cause i don't think that's quite right. It's not Sakura's love that has been portrayed negatively. She was called kind for still wanting to help Sasuke regardless of all he had done due to her love for him (whether platonic or romantic doesn't really matter). What is being portrayed negatively is Sasuke's attitude since it wasn't Sakura alone at the receiving end of Sasuke's assyness. 

@Kage
Those panels you linked only show one part of the Naruto Sasuke bond. It wasn't initially about power but it did eventually pup up throughout the story. Sasuke's continual jealousy of Naruto's power in part 1&2. Naruto's initial childish jealousy of the attention Sasuke got. The NarSas bond is not that black and white.


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## Kage (Jun 28, 2014)

Njaa said:


> @Kage Those panels you linked only show one part of the Naruto Sasuke bond. It wasn't initially about power but it did eventually pup up throughout the story. Sasuke's continual jealousy of Naruto's power in part 1&2. Naruto's initial childish jealousy of the attention Sasuke got. The NarSas bond is not that black and white.


Well yeah.

The argument I'm refuting claims Sakura is the only person he bonded with that had nothing to do with power when the fact of the matter is Naruto and Sasuke's bond not only predates team seven but started because of empathy over the pain of loneliness. There is a reason Sasuke reacted so harshly to Sakura's ignorance in chap 3 even though he supposedly hated Naruto at the time. Everything else comes after.

Also, I don't understand how it not being about or involving power later down the line helps the argument they're trying to make when an Uchiha's power is a good indicator of how strongly they feel about something or someone.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 28, 2014)

ch1p said:


> And lol at 'Naruto loving Sakura more than a crush at the hospital scene' statement. You think its about him for what reason? Blind and delusional reasons no doubt. Tsunade has no idea Naruto likes Sakura 'that way', she hasn't seen him putting the moves on her, all he has seen is him telling her 'i brought a medic' and that's it. Did Naruto tell Tsunade 'there's this cute girl that I kind of like' offpanel?
> 
> You know what Tsunade has seen onpanel? The flowers Sakura brought, with her acknowledging that Sakura is visiting Sasuke every day. Sakura's gentle and polite request to help Sasuke, with Tsunade smiling reassuringly and saying everything will be fine. Sakura's tears falling down her face as Sakura watches her heal Sasuke, then Sakura hugging Sasuke in relief and whatever his reaction to that is. To the point of Tsunade comparing Sakura's love for Sasuke to the same she had for Dan, when she requests an apprenticeship from her.
> 
> Tsunade is also smiling when Naruto leaves. You think she's going to smile because of his heartbreak? How cruel of Tsunade if that's the case.


Naruto is heartbroken because of his love, and Tsunade doesn't really have any idea that he is, just that he's being sensitive for a reason that she wouldn't know. Naruto was quite jolly about Sasuke waking up from the genjutsu and she picked up on how his mood changed pretty quickly just by Sakura hugging Sasuke like that.. You can't really twist this scene in your favor. 

Since when has Tsunade compared Sakura's love for Sasuke with her love for Dan? If anything DanTsu actually parallels NaruSaku as Tsunade likened Nawaki *and* Dan to be similar to Naruto. Then there's the whole thing about Tsunade supporting Dan's dream to be Hokage and Sakura supporting Naruto's dream no matter what. You can say that Naruto is the 'lil bro that wants to be Hokage and Sasuke the lover who wants to be hokage but that's completely wrong because she doesn't support Sasuke's goal to be Hokage at all and only supports Naruto's.

Edit:

Takl has translated Naruto's line in 632. Seems like I'm right .


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## Corvida (Jun 28, 2014)

> The argument I'm refuting claims Sakura is the only person he bonded with that had nothing to do with power



She still is,




> [] when the fact of the matter is Naruto and Sasuke's bond not only predates team seven but started because of empathy over the pain of loneliness



It doesnt predate team seven. Their relationship only started in team seven,  and  as pure rivalry, even all of Kishi retcons from valley of the end onwards to  part 2 flashback only reinstate one thing-Naruto failed to reach Sasuke "I should have called out to him" in their pre academy and academy days precisely becasue of that fac of his pulling an Hinata ... he decided in pure frustration unilaterallly to be better than him  and  make him his rival.Rivalry is a fact so definitory in the NarSas Dynamic that is has had to be even to be cosmically and karmically ratified via heavenly asspull to justify a final fandango.




> Elicit94
> 
> Takl has translated Naruto's line in 632. Seems like I'm right .


[/QUOTE]

.No, you have failed *again.*As you will, every time you will find a trasnlation of a verb which can  mean or imply "cross","disrecpect" or "annoy".-that?s just the eternal "incordiar ", or being a pest..

And you wont ever, ever, be free of the "again"-?Why doesn Naruto says "again" 

Becasue I have to ask you -when, or by which actions,  does Nardo "go against" his Sakura-tchann?And when has he lately done it?


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## Elicit94 (Jun 28, 2014)

Corvida said:


> No, you have failed *again.*As you will, every time you will find a trasnlation of a verb which can  mean or imply "cross","disrecpect" or "annoy".-that?s just the eternal "incordiar ", or being a pest..


"Pester" doesn't imply deliberation. You can't use synonyms to prove your point as they have to have the exact same meaning as "Pester". 



> And you wont ever, ever, be free of the "again"-?Why doesn Naruto says "again"


Because he has "pestered", "went against", "talked back to", "crossed", or "turned on" her (as in get her angry) before the girlfriend comment, and even if it was because of the comment he meant what he said. 



> Becasue I have to ask you -when, or by which actions,  does Nardo "go against" his Sakura-tchann?And when has he lately done it?


It means to oppose her in this case. He has opposed her by acting perverted in front of her when he knows she doesn't like it, or just answering for her and maybe saying that she is sorta his girlfriend without her consent.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 28, 2014)

Njaa said:


> I'm gonna butt in here for a bit cause i don't think that's quite right. It's not Sakura's love that has been portrayed negatively. She was called kind for still wanting to help Sasuke regardless of all he had done due to her love for him (whether platonic or romantic doesn't really matter). What is being portrayed negatively is Sasuke's attitude since it wasn't Sakura alone at the receiving end of Sasuke's assyness.


Her being kind for what is regarded as her "duty" to save Sasuke doesnt mean that clearly negative portrayal isnt negative. Sasuke's attitude is only one if tge 5+ negative moments the pairing has had since the start of the war and them not being solely directed towards her doesn't negate them from being a negative portrayal of SS as her reactions are given emphasis. Shes going to be the one more affected by Sasuke not even treating her with even common decency. Even if you are in the process of moving on from someone, continued reminder that they could give a shit less about you is going to hurt


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## Njaa (Jun 28, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Her being kind for what is regarded as her "duty" to save Sasuke doesnt mean that clearly negative portrayal isnt negative. Sasuke's attitude is only one if tge 5+ negative moments the pairing has had since the start of the war and them not being solely directed towards her doesn't negate them from being a negative portrayal of SS as her reactions are given emphasis. Shes going to be the one more affected by Sasuke not even treating her with even common decency. Even if you are in the process of moving on from someone, continued reminder that they could give a shit less about you is going to hurt



Point is that Sakura's love itself towards Sasuke is not presented as a negative, in fact it is quite the opposite. Since her self imposed duty derives from her love for him and it is stated quite clearly that doing so is what makes her a kind girl. The negativity of SS comes from Sasuke and how his actions affect Sakura, not from the love Sakura has for Sasuke.

@Kage
I'm just pointing out how the NarSas bond isn't that wholesome, so when comparing that bond with the one that Sasuke had with Sakura they are indeed quite different. Sasuke bonded with Sakura as a comrade with no real caveats (can't think of a better word atm) unlike the NarSas which was and still is friend/rival, that doesn't make one better than the other, just different. In that sense the SasSak bond is fairly unique in that it didn't have anything to do with Sasuke's desire for power or as a means to an end to achieve a goal.


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## Dokiz1 (Jun 28, 2014)

Its also because of her love that she wanted to kill him. How the fuck is that not negative?


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## Njaa (Jun 28, 2014)

Because it wasn't presented as a negative. It was _supposed_ to show how much Sakura cared about Sasuke.


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## Selina Kyle (Jun 28, 2014)

i've suddenly realized that this moment in ch 469, the look and the unfinished sentence of kakashi's here:



continues to our recent chapter here:


*Spoiler*: __ 










kakashi knows that something's up with sakura's heart. 
her feelings are changing. 
she's becoming selfless, and she's willing to abandon what she loved before for naruto.
there's stil no real answer yet, but it's clear that sakura has moved on from sasuke in romantic sense.


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## Tangle (Jun 28, 2014)

^
onaji suki = same love

So nope, it's still romantic.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 29, 2014)

Falling back toward that will not help since Kakashi said it may have become different and become another feeling.

This is the problem with some SS posts here, they cling to ONLY one part of a line but do not read the rest of what Kakashi is saying or implying.

Or at the very least, admit it is intentionally worded that way to make it seem to go either route (whether Sakura will move on or not).


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## xxRomanceGirlxx (Jun 29, 2014)

Hi, everyone.   I'm new to this forum and I've mostly been lurking, but this conversation has caught my interest so I'm going to put in my two cents:

SasuSaku is a pairing that I don't think ever really left the ground. Sakura had really strong feelings for him, but Sasuke never seemed to pay any attention to it. He just thought she was annoying and even when he acknowledged her as a friend and protected her, his bond was more meaningful with Naruto than anything else. Sasuke treated her really indifferently and he was so rude to Sakura. Sasuke's rude to everyone, but Sakura always took it so personally. I just never got the feeling she was right for him if she was that sensitive with his personality. I don't think she ever even stood up to him in Part 1 that wasn't a serious situation.

SS had a really great ending in Part 1 with Sasuke's departure. You see that Sasuke cared for T7 and Sakura, but in the end he still chose to sacrifice that for his own goals. Sakura's confession didn't sway him, but he still thanked her for caring even though he never really liked her that way. I actually thought that Sasuke's "thank you" there was beautiful. But it's also the moment I officially believe foreshadowed SS eventually changing and getting closure. Just not closure as endgame. 

Sakura still loved Sasuke after the time-skip, but she stopped wanting to be with him. All that matters was saving Sasuke and getting him back to Team 7. That's not a bad thing, but I did notice something. Sasuke seemed to stop caring for Sakura completely and the only one he even marginally acknowledged and paid attention to was still Naruto. He's the one he still cared about and in the current chapters it's still the same way.

But then what about Sakura's feelings? Well, that's the thing. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke is getting less and less focus while her feelings for Naruto are getting more and more focus. I'd even go as far to say that the whole of Part 2 has been Sakura worrying over and supporting Naruto the most while in Part 1 that was Sasuke. She's even supporting Naruto to be Hokage over Sasuke without any second thoughts. And in her confession she tried to kill Sasuke to ease Naruto's burden and protect him. Of course Sasuke's fall to darkness was part of it, but that was her justification. The reason she even decided to do that was to protect Naruto. 

SasuSaku is far from being portrayed as positive. Sakura's behavior with Sasuke is completely negative. He makes her miserable, she doesn't trust him, she's upset he doesn't care, and then you have Sakura seem legitimately ashamed for having feelings for Sasuke in 540 because he wasn't a great guy. Sakura in the Kage Summit Arc was also not positive for SS in any way whatsoever. She was trying to kill him to "save him from himself" but then you have her crying and losing complete faith in Sasuke until Naruto had to restore it. And even then, it wasn't about Sasuke. It was just about T7 being together again in general.

Romantic SS is so depressing and shaky. Sakura lost faith in him _twice_. If we're supposed to believe SS is positive, then why not have her be like Naruto? Happy and willing to take on anything for Sasuke, never losing hope once? Naruto's feelings may be platonic, but if romantic SS was supposed to be a big deal, than Kishi would've written Sakura like that with him instead of shame and complete misery.

The only thing about SS that seems to be supported is how Sakura feels it's her duty to save Sasuke from darkness, but it's not that special because it's not that different from Naruto. They care for him. SasuSaku is positive, but only platonically. Kakashi's monologue said Sakura's feelings changed for Sasuke from how it was. She doesn't love him the way she used to, but she still cares for him and that's what's positive. *Platonic SS and only platonic SS is positive*. 

I do think Sakura _thinks_ she still loves Sasuke. That's how things like 540, 676, and the Kage Summit Arc happened. However, I thought 675 made it abundantly clear she isn't in love with him anymore while she may not have entire closure to her feelings for him _yet_. We're just waiting for that moment when she sees it.


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## Tangle (Jun 29, 2014)

Fruits Basket Fan said:


> Fall back toward that will not help since Kakashi said it may have become different,and other feeling.
> 
> This is the problem with SS it clings to one part of a line but does not read the rests of what Kakashi is saying.]



Why would I add the rest of the line when all I wanted to do was to point out that the romantic nature of her feelings are still the same? The other part of the line doesn't change that fact so it makes no sense to even add it in.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 29, 2014)

@Tangle: Because then you would lose the context and full meaning of Kakashi's words and you are intently only reading what you want to read because it goes against what you want to believe.

Do the words "have become different" or "become another feeling" become completely erased from that line in your head?

I cannot believe you just asked that and not realize how absurd your post sounds.

It is like "why should I read the rest of the book after reading the beginning" even when the story could have a completely different outcome by the end of the book.

I acknowledge the possibility that Sakura may have lingering  feelings for Sasuke (weakening maybe), all the while acknowledge that she may care for him different from romantic love in part 1 based on Kakashi stating the feelings maybe different.

50/50 chance especially with how Kishi worded Kakashi's monologue.....it is not hard to see it that way.


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## Revolution (Jun 29, 2014)

When Sasuke learned Amaterasu, he was thinking of Team 7.  When Karin got hit with Amatersu and Juugo told him "it's too late! We have to leave now" he refused and while thinking of KARIN, he refused to let her die, doing something no Uchiha has done before: stopping Amaterasu.

Shikamaru naraS, you are thinking of the previous chapter with the team 7 flashback.  

Sasuke mastered Amaterau for Karin and Karin alone.  Now that he has, he can use it for other things.

How has Sakura influenced Sasuke in part 2?  Part one give you a big list at least.

You can't deny that Sasuke truly cared about Taka during the Bee fight because Taka reminded him of the closeness of Team 7.


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> ["Pester" doesn't imply deliberation. You can't use synonyms to prove your point as they have to have the exact same meaning as "Pester".
> [


Pester , as in harass, bug, or annoy, imply deliberation , coraz?n-.
And I can use all the synonysm I can, as the meaning of synonysm is,...."same meaning."


> Because he has "pestered", "went against", "talked back to", "crossed", or "turned on" her (as in get her angry) before the girlfriend comment, and even if it was because of the comment he meant what he said.
> E-XACTLY-Becasue pestering her with things like the girfriend comment make Sakura explode-and oops-he has done it again-he?s straightly referring to the girfriend scene with his mock penitence.He has "been disrepectful".
> 
> IN-COR-DIO.



It means to oppose her in this case. He has opposed her by acting perverted in front of her when he knows she doesn't like it, or just answering for her and maybe saying that she is sorta his girlfriend *without her consent.[/*QUOTE]

But here we go again-He-knows-he doesnt like it-without her consent-

And you still have the cheek to say there was no deliberation on Naruto?s part?


HE KNOWS WHAT HE HAS DONE

Definitely,Naruto was refering to the previous chapter in 632.



Edit-forgot this yesterday and was golden




> [Since when has Tsunade compared Sakura's love for Sasuke with her love for Dan? If anything DanTsu actually parallels NaruSaku



Poor, poor Jiraiya.Frienzoned in the afterlife  now that he has seen chilling with lilbro- and another Nardo figure -like himself- Nawaki,  reading  naughty mangazines,and dropped like a hot potato by the paring of the thosand paralels.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 29, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Pester , as in harass, bug, or annoy, imply deliberation , coraz?n-.
> And I can use all the synonysm I can, as the meaning of synonysm is,...."same meaning."





You can annoy, bug, or harass someone with or without deliberation, but "pester" makes it so it's specifically not deliberate. 



> But here we go again-He-knows-he doesnt like it-without her consent-
> 
> And you still have the cheek to say there was no deliberation on Naruto?s part?
> 
> ...


He looks quite serious with his answer. There was nothing in his expression that indicates that he was teasing her, so even if he knows it would annoy her he meant what he said to his father.



Corvida said:


> Poor, poor Jiraiya.Frienzoned in the afterlife  now that he has seen chilling with lilbro- and another Nardo figure -like himself- Nawaki,  reading  naughty mangazines,and dropped like a hot potato by the paring of the thosand paralels.


Cool.

But tell me how Sasuke is anything like Dan.


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

Glad we are agreeing then. That?s why in my legendary Pamplona journalism uni days they forced us to have a dictionary of synonysms to avoid repeating always  the same Word-to say or mean the same thing.



> You can annoy, bug, or harass someone with or without deliberation, but "pester" makes it so it's specifically not deliberate.



Seeing that pest is to harrass with petty annoyances, or bother.....the degree of deliberation is left to the situation-as seen in your moving descriptions of Naruto?s behaviour.



> He looks quite serious with his answer. There was nothing in his expression that indicates that he was teasing her, so even if he knows it would annoy her he meant what he said to his father.



Oh be sure of that-even your late tranlstion so hardly won assures you of that-he knew it woulkd annoy her. He was teasing.




> Cool.
> 
> But tell me how Sasuke is anything like Dan.



No no, we were speaking of narsak thousand paralululz-what we make with por Jitaiya now? Can he not be paraloled anymore? We?ve just seen in Tsunade dream the two Nardo-like figures lilbrothered and lumped together.


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## Elicit94 (Jun 29, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Glad we are agreeing then. That?s why in my legendary Pamplona journalism uni days they forced us to have a dictionary of synonysms to avoid repeating always  the same Word-to say or mean the same thing.



*Spoiler*: __ 










> Seeing that pest is to harrass with petty annoyances, or bother.....the degree of deliberation is left to the situation-as seen in your moving descriptions of Naruto?s behaviour.
> 
> Oh be sure of that-even your late tranlstion so hardly won assures you of that-he knew it woulkd annoy her. He was teasing.


But he didn't look like he was teasing? It's all in his expression. 



> No no, we were speaking of narsak thousand paralululz-what we make with por Jitaiya now? Can he not be paraloled anymore?


SS is the one in need of parallels, NS doesn't need anymore.


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> Elicit94 said:
> 
> 
> > *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 29, 2014)

> NO pairing should need paralels. Tha Narsak lives from them is the ultimate proof of its shittiness



Say, what? 

You're saying parallels in a manga that literally thrives on them are meaningless? NS stands on its own two feet, the parallels are simply icing on the cake. They were NEVER meant to 1:1 exactly the same (no parallel in the manga is, romantic or otherwise, WTF?) 

This is what happens when you're so divorced from reality, that you can't tell fantasy from fiction anymore.


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> [Say, what?
> 
> You're saying parallels in a manga that literally thrives on them are meaningless?




Nooooooo. I said no pairing should rely basically and specifically feed on on paralels. As you yourself realice whe you specify



> []NS stands on its own two feet,



Very ortopedically. The way it desperatelly reacted to  OMG KUSHINA  V2,  OMG SANNINZ DEUX OMG FORGET DAT, ITS DAN  is proof of that.Without  its parallols and its shonen autopilot, it?s....nothing.




> The paralels are simply icing on the cake.


The cake is rotten. and full of fleas and flies. The way poor Jiraiya has been discarded is haertbreaking.




> [They were NEVER meant to 1:1 exactly the same (no parallel in the manga is, romantic or otherwise, WTF?)


The way Sakura as been sdhoehorned as  the second coming of Kushina tells me otherwise.



> This is what happens when you're so divorced from reality, that you can't tell fantasy from fiction anymore.



Naruto as Dan 2?????


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 29, 2014)

Corvida said:


> Poor, poor Jiraiya.Frienzoned in the afterlife  now that he has seen chilling with lilbro- and another Nardo figure -like himself- Nawaki,  reading  naughty mangazines,and dropped like a hot potato by the paring of the thosand paralels.


I think you have a serious misunderstanding of the argument that involves Jiraiya and Tsunade. Based on the scene before he left to Amegakure, it is implied that when he came back Tsunade would finally give him a legitimate chance, open her heart up to that kind of thing once more. He died there however, so that never went any further. I've never seen any NS fan argue that Tsunade loved Jiraiya at that point and even if she did somewhat love him romantically, it wouldn't matter in regards to her IT dream. She would dream of a situation where all of her loved ones are alive, so Dan would need to be in the picture. It would make no sense to put the fact that she was going to give Jiraiya a chance/might have had some romantic love for him before his death over the fact that she was in an actual relationship and full on in love with Dan. Nor does it make sense for the dream to put them both in the "lover" category. Jiraiya is portrayed as an uncle in her IT dream, as very close friends usually act as uncles/aunts to their friends kids. He is not portrayed as a "little brother", that is absurd. 


Once again, your side proves that it doesn't even know how parallels work or the actual arguments that are made in regards to them. Parallels are a tool, though only one side actually seems to know how to use them correctly. They are just one part of a larger scale argument.


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> []I think you have a serious misunderstanding of the argument that involves Jiraiya and Tsunade


.  
Not that I really care,. Naruto and Sakura have been paralolled enough, thank you very much. I only found hilarous, after years of enduring NaruSaku as the Jira-tsu paralulz and  new generations blah blah blah blah, finding Elicit making the new" it" thing-the NarSak as the new Tsuna-Dan after  finding out- as if the edo?s incident wasnt enough-that Tsunade?s heart never moved on romantically......Urgh..





> ]He is not portrayed as a "little brother", that is absurd.


No-I said he was portrayed WITH the lilbro-  The Nardo figure of  the sannnin  team corrupting the Nardo forerunner of tsunade life- which was a real showstopper. Remember both Tsunade and Nawaki have Uzumaki blood. and Nawaki even resembles Naruto physically

And then, there?s Dan?s the man. Totally like Nardo, too, according to Eli.

Becasue Naruto is everywhere. And all pairings are proto-narusaku parallels.

.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 29, 2014)

Elicit was arguing that NaruSaku works better as a parallel to DanTsu than SasuSaku, not that he thinks that DanTsu is meant to be a parallel to NaruSaku(I don't think its meant as one either, not to NS or SS). To which hes right, the kind of relationship that they had has more similarities and Dan has been paralleled to Naruto in a stronger manner thank Sasuke has(Sasuke arguably was never directly paralleled to him, only indirectly as a general "someone Sakura cares strongly for").


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 29, 2014)

Kage said:


> Oh boy.
> Sasuke would have no reason to stress why they aren't important and insist Naruto forget about them when he could have settled for reassuring Naruto it seems they were able to take care of themselves so that's why he didn't worry about them. But lying to Naruto about not caring was sure to get him to cooperate. Makes sense.



It is convenient how you did not prove me wrong but actually went and asked for a prediction, but this is not a prediction thread. Sasuke is telling Kakashi and Sakura to fend for themselves. He was totally honest when he said they were there by chance for the tsukoyomi and if they weren't he would have gone for Naruto , he wasn't lying there because if he  doesn't save Naruto then it's all over for all of them and humanity and he's right. But here when the death was immediate he couldn't help but check on them before he went to grab Naruto. His body moved on it's on and the first thing he did after the summoning was to check on Sakura and Kakashi  here:



Panel 1 and 2 , look how he checked in the other direction then he goes in Naruto's direction. 



Then Kishi specifically make Naruto ask what happened even though he was facing them and on top of that Kishi specifically makes Sasuke answer instead of Kakashi even though Sasuke's back was to them. It is so clear what Kishi is telling the readers  also:



Look how Sasuke positions his hawk. Kaguya is facing the other way and instead of Sasuke facing her for battle he positioned his hawk between her and Sakura and Kakashi. He even made sure to put himself and Naruto between Kaguya ,and Sakura and Kakashi .

Look , I really don't like to see something that's not even there. I am not that kind of person , but sometimes we do it unconsciously so If you think I am wrong explain to me what those panels mean and how did Sasuke see what Kakashi did even though Naruto couldn't and why is Sasuke positioning his hawk not facing Kaguya.
I am man enough to admit I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong when I am.



Kage said:


> You're either pushing the Sasuke of the past or the hypothetical nice Sasuke of the future. How bout we worry about the now? about the Sasuke who is shown to only be interested in defeating a powerful enemy with the only other person he considers important to the cause, which is why the spares could fall in lava for all he cares? no? no.



I am not pushing anything. I am reading a manga and it just happens that I noticed things you didn't and don't tell me it's not there , the panels are posted above for you to see. 




Kage said:


> Like I said, I don't have to downplay it. The plot hasn't bothered to make this particularly worthy of notice outside the time it happened *nearly a decade ago.* You're free to think it means something special while the manga continues to move on though.



The time it happened is irrelevant to my argument. She's the only girl who influenced him enough with a hug and some tears to stop him from doing something bad/dark. She's still the only girl till now after many years.




Kage said:


> It's why he waited until the fight was over and Naruto had won before going over to Sakura himself because saving her _no matter what_ didn't involve abandoning Naruto in the process.


The heck , who said anything about Sasuke abandoning Naruto? Sasuke caring about Sakura enough to stress saving her and throwing his life and his revenge for her does not mean abandoning Naruto. Who on earth would say that? It's funny how you think I'm anti the sasuke and Naruto bond when it's my most favorite. I am even in it's FC ( of course the platonic one not the gay one ) 




Kage said:


> No it doesn't but in the case of Sasuke it's stressed because his influence's matters the most in team seven. Sasuke can't become a better person without him, Sakura's influence is not near as vital.



Sakura without the prophecy , without Jesus no jutsu , without incarnations , without destiny and lost brothers souls was able to influence Sasuke enough for him to throw his life and revenge to save her. His bond with her is as strong as Naruto's just without the supernatural stuff and without the rivalry stuff. It's a bond purely on emotions that has nothing to do with power.



Kage said:


> I'm arguing her influence lacks long term impact and I'm not wrong.



Last I checked , even Naruto's influence didn't change Sasuke for the longest of times. He abandoned both Naruto and Sakura. He tried to kill both Naruto and Sakura. Naruto and Sakura both couldn't convince him to change. And STILL he's fighting this war now NOT because of Naruto. And that's even though Naruto has all the gods and destiny in his favor and on his side  

 Sakura doesn't know the truth. Kishi kept it from her for a reason. Naruto knows why Sasuke joined Akatsuki and why he went crazy for a while because Obito told him. Kishi conveniently hid this from Sakura. 

And before I forget , Naruto and Sasuke's bond is not all about power I never said that. But power is a huge part of it, Naruto is the rival. Sakura is the only bond that has nothing to do with power. Nothing at all.  





Kage said:


> Can we not do the bitterness over Naruto's prominent role in Sasuke's life making Sakura's laughable by comparison thing.



Bitterness? The only one who is bitter is you and that's why your trying to make me some Sasuke/Naruto bond hater   Naruto's role is so different from Sakura that he can't even touch her role so how can he make it laughable  This is shounen not gay manga 



Sarahmint said:


> he refused to let her die, doing something no Uchiha has done before: stopping Amaterasu.
> 
> Shikamaru naraS, you are thinking of the previous chapter with the team 7 flashback.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry Sarah , Itachi has stopped amaterasu when he fought Sasuke. So no ,sasuke was not the only uchiha who did that .when you get Amaterasu you can put it off too.

Sasuke does care about Taka , I never said he didn't. But Taka has zero influence on him Karin included. Karin has never been able to stop him from doing anything bad/dark . More , she actually helps him doing it. All it took for Sakura to make Sasuke smile behind her back was deliver a couple of strong punches. And yes that was in part2.

Compared to all the girls that loved Sasuke , Sakura is the one who influenced him the most and the one who had him blush , smile when he saw her fight , compliment her when she was down and even almost gave away his revenge and life for her. She brought him down from CS craze with a hug. She is also the only bond who has nothing to do with power.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 29, 2014)

The "if anything" part means "if we have to force DanTsu to parallel something, NS works best".


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 29, 2014)

Shikamaru, your continued emphasis on Sakura being the only girl to do this or that has no actual significance as shes a forced bond(teammate) and the only female he had any real interaction with in the entirety of part 1, before he cut his bonds to focus on his revenge.

As for the "unique bond" thing its pretty laughable considering it comes from her lack of power/lack of ability to offer him power. Hers is a bond that he didnt choose, he was put on a team with her and she could be replaced by Ino, Tenten or Hinata without it making much difference. The "uniqueness" of the bond has no significance and wouldn't exist if Sakura was actually on the same level of power as Sasuke and Naruto. That is how tge element of power seeped into the NaruSasu bond, by Naruto getting onto Sasuke's leven then surpassing it, making him think Konoha was holding him back if the dead last of the class was stronger than him.


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 29, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The "if anything" part means "if we have to force DanTsu to parallel something, NS works best".



The only thing Dan and Naruto share is the dream to become Hogake. And surprisingly , Sasuke has the same dream now  

Naruto looks , acts and behaves like Nawaki. Naruto is more like his mother than father ( what Jiraya and Tsunade said before ) Jiraya also said Naruto is more like him than Minato. It's funny how Naruto and Sakura are more like people who are either mother and son ( She treats Naruto like Kushina treats him ) Or bog sister young brother ( Tsunade and nawaki ) or best friends ( Jiraya and Tsunade ) or friend zoned couple ( Obito and Rin )

The only couple that worked was ( Minato and Kushina ) but Naruto is said to be more Kushina than Minato. More Jiraya than Minato. We've never seen Kushina treating Minato with punches all the time.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Shikamaru, your continued emphasis on Sakura being the only girl to do this or that has no actual significance as shes a forced bond(teammate) and the only female he had any real interaction with in the entirety of part 1, before he cut his bonds to focus on his revenge.
> 
> As for the "unique bond" thing its pretty laughable considering it comes from her lack of power/lack of ability to offer him power. Hers is a bond that he didnt choose, he was put on a team with her and she could be replaced by Ino, Tenten or Hinata without it making much difference. The "uniqueness" of the bond has no significance and wouldn't exist if Sakura was actually on the same level of power as Sasuke and Naruto. That is how tge element of power seeped into the NaruSasu bond, by Naruto getting onto Sasuke's leven then surpassing it, making him think Konoha was holding him back if the dead last of the class was stronger than him.



You're argument is the laughable one. Sasuke competed with Naruto even before he was better than him. They were rivals from the start. Even through their first mission you can see that. Sakura completed the tree walking before both of them and but they didn't compete with her they only competed with each other. 

And you saying if Sakura was replaced with tenten it will be the same result is even more laughable. It's like me saying if Garaa was the chosen one and the one who is Ashura's incarnation and the one who was put in Sasuke's team from his village it could have done the same exact thing.


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## Dokiz1 (Jun 29, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> It is convenient how you did not prove me wrong but actually went and asked for a prediction, but this is not a prediction thread. Sasuke is telling Kakashi and Sakura to fend for themselves. He was totally honest when he said they were there by chance for the tsukoyomi and if they weren't he would have gone for Naruto , he wasn't lying there because if he  doesn't save Naruto then it's all over for all of them and humanity and he's right. But here when the death was immediate he couldn't help but check on them before he went to grab Naruto. His body moved on it's on and the first thing he did after the summoning was to check on Sakura and Kakashi  here:



...

... 


...


...


...............................................................

this is really SS logic at its worst


You could easily say Sasuke was only trying to stand up or position himself in the first panel considering he fell on his back like just 1 panel before. 




Also, you can say Karin doesnt have any influence or whatever, she's still the only girl or the only person for that matter that Sasuke bothered to apologize to for trying to kill. Meanwhile he is still ignoring Sakura.

Naruto = Dan/Nawaki


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> ]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shikamaru naraS (Jun 29, 2014)

Dokiz1 said:


> this is really SS logic at its worst
> 
> 
> You could easily say Sasuke was only trying to stand up or position himself in the first panel considering he fell on his back like just 1 panel before.



And Kishi will waste a panel on Sasuke adjusting himself on a hawk? Then how did he know what Kakashi did when even Naruto who was facing them didn't see it?



Dokiz1 said:


> Also, you can say Karin doesnt have any influence or whatever, she's still the only girl or the only person for that matter that Sasuke bothered to apologize to for trying to kill. Meanwhile he is still ignoring Sakura.



Actually the way Kishi handled the Sasuke and Karin thing like one word of " Suminakata" and how she started to rave about how it felt good but then corrected herself is enough for me to see how Kishi didn't even bother to really repair anything between them. 

Team7 is yet to have that talk. When they do have that talk ( and we all know they will ) we will see how Kishi will handle the repair thing. If it's worse than Karin and Sasuke's then I will say SK is canon. Till then Karin cannot compare to how Sakura influenced Sasuke.



> Naruto = Dan



only in his dream of being Hokage.


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## ShadowFox88 (Jun 29, 2014)

Corvida said:


> > ]
> >
> > Nope-the literal words were "DanTsu *actually parallels *NaruSaku".-like a joyful revelation.
> > I know  of  NarSak?s historial of forcing itself like a forunculus into any pairing present , past or future, of this manga or any other, but pretending that it remotely works best "inserting itself into Tsuna-Dan  is beyond revolting.
> ...


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## Corvida (Jun 29, 2014)

> only in his dream of being Hokage.



It isnt worth, Shikamaru-you wont be finding many Naruto-Sarutobi comparisons.

Becasue he cant be  paraloled,

Will of fiyah and all.


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## Dokiz1 (Jun 29, 2014)

shikamaru naraS said:


> And Kishi will waste a panel on Sasuke adjusting himself on a hawk? Then how did he know what Kakashi did when even Naruto who was facing them didn't see it.




Sure, because a panel of that size actually wasted space, get real. 


How? Just like how Naruto couldn't tell what happened even though he was staring at them all along. Sasuke was just the better guy for Kishi to explain through him the obvious.








> only in his dream of being Hokage.



DAn himself said he was like him, enough said.


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2014)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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