# Kakashi VS Tsunade



## Itachі (Apr 15, 2014)

*Location:* 
*Distance:* 10 Metres
*Restrictions:* Kamui, Byakugou.
*Additional Information:* This is current Kakashi but he's not going blind.
*Knowledge:* None for Kakashi, full for Tsunade.
*Mindset:* IC


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## Jad (Apr 15, 2014)

Unless I am mistaken, this is a stomp in Kakashi's favor....

In fact, you give Kakashi full, Tsunade rep, disable her two best abilities, and leave Kakashi without Kamui only....


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## Itachі (Apr 15, 2014)

Switched the knowledge around, not much good with these threads.


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## Jad (Apr 15, 2014)

Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> Switched the knowledge around, not much good with these threads.



Still believe it's unbalanced man. You disabled Tsunade's moveset. Haven't you seen her in the Battledome? 90% of the fight is Katsuya doing the work


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## animeboy1 (Apr 15, 2014)

Kakashi should win this. In this scenario, Tsunade barely has any ninjutsu to mention, since her summons and regeneration are restricted. So, she's up against Kakashi, who is faster, and is allowed to use his Raikiri. Only Taijutsu isn't going to cut it for her, when Kakashi outclasses her,  elsewhere.

Edit: If summons are allowed, Tsunade stands a better chance, but still favor Kakashi.


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## Veracity (Apr 15, 2014)

Without regeneration , Kakashi should win. With it, however, Tsunade wins handily. This is assuming the omnipotent Kamui is restricted .


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## ThunderCunt (Apr 15, 2014)

I think only restricting Kamui will make fight a bit fair for Tsunade.


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## Mercurial (Apr 15, 2014)

Kakashi is too fast for her and has Sharingan precognition on top. He landed Raikiri on people a lot faster than she is, he can easily carve her head away, or bisect in half with Raiden. Also Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu is on par with Obito's, so he can easily mindfuck her and end the unbalanced fight in good sex.


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## Mithos (Apr 15, 2014)

Byakugou is restricted but is Souzou Saisei still allowed? 

If Souzou Saisei is allowed, Tsunade wins. Kakashi isn't landing a head-shot and that's pretty much the only thing that would kill her before she could activate Souzou Saisei. 

The knowledge here heavily favors Tsunade. With no knowledge on Souzou Saisei, Kakashi is likely to try to Raikiri her, which would only result in him having his arm grabbed and receiving a fatal punch to the face. And after Tsunade regenerates - even Haku didn't die right away after being impaled by Raikiri and Tsunade has shown a lot more resilience. 

10 meters starting distance with no knowledge is also really bad for Kakashi. Tsunade is going to engage in CQC right away and without knowing about her strength, Kakashi will not know he needs to avoid CQC at all costs. He can dodge her strikes, but if he tries to block or parry them he'll die. And there's also the problem he'll have if he tries to counter attack: Tsunade has shown remarkable resilience even without Byakugou activated and she could tank a punch or kick from Kakashi, or even a kunai, and retaliate before Kakashi can retreat. 

Should the fight last longer than an ill-fated CQC skirmish, it likely ends with Tsunade tanking a Raikiri and countering before regenerating with Souzou Saisei. 

If the fight lasts longer than that, Tsunade can still summon Katsuyu. Without Kamui, Kakashi doesn't have a way to fight them both at once. Dodging Katsuyu's large acid blasts would be a problem because when he jumps out of the AoE, he'll be open to Tsunade charging at him while he's in the air and can't dodge. The reverse is also true - Tsunade can force Kakashi into the air where he can't dodge Katsuyu's acid. 

If Tsunade isn't allowed any regeneration but is still allowed Katsuyu, I'd lean towards her still winning. She can win by playing defensively and attacking with Katsuyu (as mentioned above) and can avoid fatal wounds. If she gets wounded she can heal herself while Katsuyu holds Kakashi off or Katsuyu can meld over her and heal/protect her while other parts of Katsuyu occupy Kakashi. Eventually they'd either land a hit while exploiting openings, or they'll win a battle of attrition, which Kakashi has no chance of winning against this duo. 

No knowledge and a close starting distance is already bad enough for Kakashi, but (maybe?) still allowing Souzou Saisei and Katsuyu make this even worse for him. I just don't see him winning.


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## Cognitios (Apr 15, 2014)

Sharingan Precog and multiple 1HKO moves for Kakashi, with Tsuande unable to regenerate?
Tsunade isn't hitting him, and as long as Kakashi doesn't go underground he is good. Clone feints and raikiri with raiton wolf make this a sealed deal for me.
Kakashi - mid difficulty.


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## SSMG (Apr 15, 2014)

Kakashi dances aroubd slow ass tsunade and cuts her down with raikiris and chidoris.
 Since tsaunde needs to make a hand seal in order to heal itt... she is screwed.


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## Bringer (Apr 15, 2014)

Tsunade jumps into the air...

And summons Katsuyu on top of Kakashi.

gg.


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## Tomaru Hatake (Apr 16, 2014)

Kakashi has more than enough in his arsenal to rape tsunade in the literal sense and fighting wise haha


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## Santoryu (Apr 16, 2014)

I think if you restrict Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu, and make this Pain-arc Kakashi, Tsunade might have a chance.

As it is, Kakashi takes this quite convincingly. The dude dominated Rinnegan Obito, and had no problems keeping pace with Version 2 Sharingan-Rinnegan equipped jins in an exhausted state.


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## Santoryu (Apr 16, 2014)

Jad said:


> Still believe it's unbalanced man. You disabled Tsunade's moveset. Haven't you seen her in the Battledome? 90% of the fight is *Katsuya doing the work*





This is so true 

Katsuyu is extremely slow in comparison to fighters like Kakashi, just like her summoner. Just a huge target for Kakashi to manipulate really. What's funny is that we've never seen Tsunade summon Katsuyu to fight a single ninja without boss summons.

Heck, even when they fought Madara, she only summoned Katsuyu *after* they got wrecked. Yes, she *can* summon Katsuyu to fight Kakashi. Just like Kakashi* can* slice her head off with Raikiri. The latter is far more likely as evidenced by the manga.


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## Garcher (Apr 16, 2014)

Kakashi should win mid diff


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## Sok (Apr 16, 2014)

Tsunade wins low-dif. Everyone knows that battledome tsunade is immortal and god-tier. :ignoramus


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## Bonly (Apr 16, 2014)

I'd favor Kakashi to win more times then not, generally he's overall better then her and he's got the tools to believably take her out first rather then the opposite.


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## Grimsley (Apr 16, 2014)

tsunade wins.

no knowledge means kakashi goes in for the kill with lightning blade; unaware of her creation rebirth (kakuzu scenario) tsunade then grabs his arm and punches a huge hole in him and regenerates. even haku resisted raikiri for a short while and tsunade has shown to have survived getting stabbed in the heart by orochimaru's blade.


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## RedChidori (Apr 17, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi is too fast for her and has Sharingan precognition on top. He landed Raikiri on people a lot faster than she is, he can easily carve her head away, or bisect in half with Raiden. Also Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu is on par with Obito's, so he can easily mindfuck her and end the unbalanced fight in good sex.



Lolz this right here peeps .


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## iJutsu (Apr 18, 2014)

Raikiri chain and decapitates Tsunade. She has no durability at all and only relies on her regen. Even a lightning kunai will end her. She's also dumb enough to disregard her own "not get hit" rules because she relies on her regen, so she's not dodging anything. She's not gonna get a hit in since it's a perfect vision MS.


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## Veracity (Apr 18, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Raikiri chain and decapitates Tsunade. She has no durability at all and only relies on her regen. Even a lightning kunai will end her. She's also dumb enough to disregard her own "not get hit" rules because she relies on her regen, so she's not dodging anything. She's not gonna get a hit in since it's a perfect vision MS.



This is a pretty terrible post.

No durabilty ? ? tanks Yasaka revered as the strongest Sussano projectile with zero injury.

Dumb? ? Sports a perfect intelligence score in the DB, and has a top tiered regeneration technique that allows her to charge through attacks. On top of this she was fighting the strongest Uchiha ever, so I don't see why she was "trying " to be hit.

Not going to hit a hit in? ? despite the fact that she blitzed Oro while rusty and injured, is a large deal faster then Manda while rusty, managed to hit Madara Uchiha, and has a perfect counter to lighting blade , which leads to a direct hit. Lol alright.


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## tkpirate (Apr 18, 2014)

i think both character has a chance of winning this.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 18, 2014)

tsunade wins mid diff, kakashis cqc isn't an overwhelming threat & katsyuu trumps his clone/summons.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 22, 2014)

Kakashi takes this no problem, he can use a variety of techniques on her all ending with heart being plunged with a Raikiri, with or without Byakago. Kakashi's arsenal is far to versatile for her to deal with, even while recovering, she loses her head, Madara stopped her by splitting her in half, Kakashi could do the same with a Raikiri through her head or heart.


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## iJutsu (Apr 22, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> This is a pretty terrible post.
> 
> No durabilty ? • tanks Yasaka revered as the strongest Sussano projectile with zero injury.
> 
> ...



Look who's talking. You're just a retarded wanker.

Who is to say she didn't regenerate or heal massive internal injuries? All you are doing is assuming. Why are you even comparing a blunt force object to a cutting attack? No matter how much strength you use, you're not defending against any lightning infused cutting/piercing attack.

She's clearly dumb. Just as you are. Who makes up rules, then disregards them? She clearly says the rules doesn't apply to her just because she has regen. So what if she can regen, doesn't mean she shouldn't dodge anyway. You're just intentionally ignoring that fact because it's inconvenient to you.

When did Oro have MS? How retarded are you to make that comparison? Intense pain caused by rotting/soulless arms will drastically impair your senses. If anything, Oro is far more impressive surviving her oh so amazing strength with no damage without even using oral rebirth. Madara didn't even care about getting hit. You're obviously ignoring the parts where he says he wanted to get hit and laugh it off to bring their resolve down. What counter to raikiri? There's no counter to your head being lopped off.

You should change your name to "More like a retard" or "Is a retard".


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 22, 2014)

iJutsu, I don't know if you're a troll or just a really bad poster, but your original post was _completely_ blinded by ignorance, and your second post perhaps even more so.



> Raikiri chain and decapitates Tsunade. She has no durability at all and only relies on her regen.



Tsunade is an evasive expert, and is highly durable. I can provide feats for you if you wish but you've clearly said something without doing your homework first, which is blatant ignorance. 



> Even a lightning kunai will end her



No it won't .



> She's also dumb enough to disregard her own "not get hit" rules because she relies on her regen, so she's not dodging anything.



How does that make her " dumb " ? The reason that rule exists is because medical ninjas _must_ be alive to heal their team-mates. Enemy ninjas commonly aim to attack the medic first for that very reason, and so it is essential that they can dodge attacks in order to keep themselves alive. However, whenever said medic is not in a situation where 

a) their team-mates are relying on them
and/or
b) they are capable of dying

then the medic doesn't need to focus on evasion 24/7. Tsunade can activate regeneration which makes her effectively unkillable. Her ' immortality ' has been cited twice in the manga, as well as in the databook. Relying on regeneration is often an effective way of fighting too since Tsunade can play dead/fake injury and then retaliate while her opponent lets their guard down. On the other hand, if she relied solely on evasion against foes who were faster than her there would be no guarantee that she would be able to dodge _everything_. Relying on regeneration is the opposite of ' dumb ' in her case.



> Who is to say she didn't regenerate or heal massive internal injuries?



Tsunade's regeneration is very fast but its not instantaneous. If she received massive injuries from Yasaka Magatama they would still be healing given that the large hole inside her abdomen had only just finished healing by the time she slammed into that boulder. Evidently no injuries are present - save a bit of bruising, so she tanked the attack



> Why are you even comparing a blunt force object to a cutting attack? No matter how much strength you use, you're not defending against any lightning infused cutting/piercing attack



Blunt force object? Yasaka Magatama is a spinning projectile with jagged edges. It functions like a high powered shuriken, as far as I can tell. 



> When did Oro have MS? How retarded are you to make that comparison?



Why does a shinobi need to have MS to prove that they're quick? Tsunade blitzing Orochimaru is still a testament of her speed. Kakashi only has one sharingan, not two, so his prediction skills are far more limited than Sasuke, Madara or Itachi's. Furthermore, his vision is not perfect anymore, he's abused his Kamui and he's going blind. If this is current Kakashi he cannot predict her attacks all that well. 



> Intense pain caused by rotting/soulless arms will drastically impair your senses.



You're a hypocrite. You spite Likes Boss for asserting that Tsunade tanked Yasaka Magatama, and then assert that Orochimaru's senses were _drastically_ impaired because he had no arms. Orochimaru was drugged up to the eyeballs and was obviously feeling no great pain from his arms at the time. Actually, there is no real evidence to suggest his reactions were slowed down much, if at all. 



> If anything, Oro is far more impressive surviving her oh so amazing strength with no damage without even using oral rebirth.



Why the fuck are you being sarcastic? Tsunade is literally is one of the physically strongest characters in the manga. Get your " oh so amazing strength " bullshit out of here  

Orochimaru was also knocked out temporarily after being hit by Tsunade's strike, when he woke up his skin started to peel off, he became absolutely exhausted and he had to retreat soon after. It's not exactly the best of the " tanking " feats.



> What counter to raikiri? There's no counter to your head being lopped off.



I implore you to give me at least 2 examples of where Kakashi has ICly aimed to chop his opponent's head off from the outset of a battle. 

Kakashi, like almost every other ninja in the manga, will aim for her chest when he's delivering critical blows. Tsunade will then grab his arm as he impales her and kill him while he's immobile. La Fin.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade is an evasive expert, and is highly durable. I can provide feats for you if you wish but you've clearly said something without doing your homework first, which is blatant ignorance.


Kakashi is much faster than her, almost 1.5 tiers faster than she is. The gap is ridiculously huge that Kakashi would be exploiting.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakashi, like almost every other ninja in the manga, will aim for her chest when he's delivering critical blows. Tsunade will then grab his arm as he impales her and kill him while he's immobile. La Fin.[/indent][/justify]


Kakashi has known to take headshots against exceptionally tough individuals like Deva Path. Kakashi was aiming for his head his blow was redirected to the side of Deva Path's head. That was not a follow up strike, it was his initial first usage of Raikiri.

So again, Kakashi, is not like every other ninja who would aim for the chest cavity. Has he done so in the past? Yes, but ever since taking on Kakuzu he's changed his fighting style.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 22, 2014)

Without knowledge Kakashi engages her in taijutsu and gets blown up by the super strength Tsunade knows he doesn't know about.

*Speed:*
*Spoiler*: __ 




It's hard for me to say Tsunade is slow, when most of her reactions and movements were on par with the Gokage.  She got his when they got hit, she evaded when they evaded, ect.  Even if you say that Kishi got lazy and equalized speed for those section, which he probably did, it still shows that, according to Kishi, Tsunade can actively participate and compete in combat at the higher tiers of the ninja world* without getting speed blitzed or left behind.  No one ever even commented on her being slow, or making things difficult, and you would expect that if Kakashi would truly leave her in the dust here, since even Mei's jutsu were alternating strikes with Raikage.  Kakashi will still have a warning with sharingan, but it's not going to be like P1 Choji swatting at Lee.  That would probably happen if PII Kakashi fought rusty Tsunade.  

*Hashirama and Tobirama and Juubi Jin and space time taijutsu kamui GG aside.


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## Jad (Apr 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Without knowledge Kakashi engages her in taijutsu and gets blown up by the super strength Tsunade knows he doesn't know about.
> 
> *Speed:*
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Well, Kakashi has shown a tendency to be wary of his opponents. Send in a clone here or there....


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 22, 2014)

Kakashi takes it mid-difficulty mainly because he has to gain knowledge in this match-up. Tsunade cheerleaders are extremely biased and believe she dodges way more the she actually can (vs Kakashi), when all her Madara fight proves is that she's great support. Too bad she has very few on-panel feats to speak of that don't involve assistance from other Kages in some way or another. The chances of her even landing a hit are extremely low once Kakashi has knowledge. She hasn't even proven that there's a real difference between her from part 1 to part 2 except for her fear of blood being gone.

and IC Kakashi always starts with bunshins and feints/tricks to analyze his opponents before going in when he has no knowledge. That's canon and even out-right stated in the Pein arc. As said, Kakashi takes it mid-difficulty because he'll need to waste a bit of chakra figuring her out. If Tsunade summons Katsuya he evades it and/or the fight continues on top of the summon. He can dance with V2 Bijuu's, Katsuya isn't a big danger to him, and Katsuya will eventually disappear once her time limit runs out, which is also canon.

Remember that Kakashi fought side by side 6th Gated Gai, connecting hits and getting hit at the same time as him. His feats/portrayal is above Tsunades even if you want to play the "hit/get hit/evade at the same time as faster characters" card.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Look who's talking. You're just a retarded wanker.
> 
> Who is to say she didn't regenerate or heal massive internal injuries? All you are doing is assuming. Why are you even comparing a blunt force object to a cutting attack? No matter how much strength you use, you're not defending against any lightning infused cutting/piercing attack.
> 
> ...



Lol why is this so late ? I posted like 15 days ago.


Lol unless you assume that Tsunade healed the Yasaka damage in less then a panel then she straight tanked it. And even if she didn't tank it then that means her regeneration is nigh instant and would probably regenerate lighting blade as it goes through her body thus negating the Justu.

I'm comparing the just because Yasaka has more impressive feats then lighting blade. It's like broly tanking a Kamahamaha wave, then getting cut by a toothpick. So unless you assume that lighting blade deals a ridiculous amount of damage, then it doesn't even make Tsunade flinch, nonetheless bisect her.

See dumb yet she's the Hokage, has hype for intelligence, and has a perfect stat in the category. That's funny lol.

She disregarded the rule because she was protecting her teamates. Matter of fact, I want you to link this "rule" as you seem to be using it to underestimate her intelligence. It's also to note that if she didn't want to get hit, she couldn't do anything about it. She's fighting Madara Uchiha, who is tiers more powerful then she is. { insert practically any character} can make any rule to not get hit, but would still eg hit my Juubimadara. Why? Because he is more powerful then them.

Naruto doesn't have MS yet would speed blitz Kakashi casually. You don't need MS to be quick ." Anyway, you originally said that she won't dodge anything because she isn't quick. I provided proof that she is indeed quick, and is quick enough to to dodge an attack like you seem to think she can't. The gap between blitzing Oro and being able to keep up with Kakashi isn't big at all. 

Please tell me exactly where you get the accusation that Oro was slower because he didn't have arms ? He still had legs to move the fuck out of Tsunades punch but didn't exercise that privilege because he wasn't fast enough to. 

What ? Oro found it necessary to flee the battle after taking two hits from a rusty and exhausted Tsunade. It is evident hah a single extra hit would have cracked his freaking dome. Current Tsuande would rip Oro in two pieces with a finger jab. This doesn't matter regardless as Kakashi is not even close to Oros durabilty and gets killed by a finger.

Madara cared enough to switch his body with a clone though right ? That's also note the part where he was trying to crush the morale. It was he part where Onoki skimmed him with Jinton.

Kakashi is not fast enough to lighting blade blitz Tsunade. Unless you believe he is tiers faster then Oro. But I don't believe so.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 23, 2014)

Orochimaru is canonically slower back then because he went even with a Jiraiya who was weaker in all abilities after being poisoned by Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2014)

That logic isn't sound because for all we know that just means Jiraiya is normally faster than Orochimaru.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> That logic isn't sound because for all we know that just means Jiraiya is normally faster than Orochimaru.



They both have a 4.5 in speed. Numbers or not, they're considered even by Kishi.

And I highly doubt Orochimaru is so weak that a poisoned Jiraiya is still around Orochimaru's speed. Even if we didn't have the numbers.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> They both have a 4.5 in speed.



There are ranges within identical statistics.

Kakashi's stamina remained at 3 across each databook despite his improvement between Part 1 the Invasion of Pein.

With the speed statistic in particular there's also Chakra enhanced movements screwing with the statistics and all that jazz (while Chakra control was a problem for Jiraiya but not Orochimaru at the time, mind you) but I'm too sleepy to start that up again right now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Well, Kakashi has shown a tendency to be wary of his opponents. Send in a clone here or there....



Well she knows that habit, but really it's 10 meters.  There isn't a lot of time or space or opportunity to set one up and conceal himself like he normally does whenever he's done that.  It's more likely to me that he'd have to engage in some kind of clash before he separates and forms a clone to trade out with.  But that is generally what keeps Kakashi alive, and lets him not get blind sided to death in no knowledge situations.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2014)

I still think cautionary _Ranshinshō_ removes a good deal of the threat clones potentially present without the need to reveal super strength.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> There are ranges within identical statistics.
> 
> Kakashi's stamina remained at 3 across each databook despite his improvement between Part 1 the Invasion of Pein.



It doesn't change the fact that a poisoned Jiraiya weakened so severely can't be so much faster than Orochimaru that he's still evenish with him.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2014)

Well...that's not a fact.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 23, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Well...that's not a fact.



It kind of is, because that means Gai absolutely shreds Orochimaru in base since part 1.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2014)

No...no it doesn't, though I already pointed out that I'm too sleepy to get into the Chakra control factor (and tier 5 Itachi not blitzing tier 4 Kurenai).

I might come back to this tomorrow after class, though.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

DB stats are unreliable.
? Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
? Tsunade with a "3.5" blogging Shizune and Oro.
? Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
? Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact jay Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
? Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.

Point is, don't ever use DB stats. Especially when it comes to speed. Other categories are some what reliable.


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## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Still doesn't change the fact that Kakashi is still much faster and with Sharingan, can read her movements like a book.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that Kakashi is still much faster and with Sharingan, can read her movements like a book.



Not much faster at all... 

And his MS is negated by Tsunade being a top tier in CQC. Same way Hidan was perfectly fine with Kakashi in CQC . 

She also has the durabilty to tank his strongest attack, top tiered regeneration, and physical strength capable of obliterating someone much more durable then Kakashi with a well placed punch . Let us also not forget her summoning that COMPLETELY Negates lighting blade , forms as a distraction , has top tier durabilty , and can one shot Kakashi .


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## LeBoyka (Apr 23, 2014)

I love Kakashi, but I'll go with *Tsunade* on this one. 

*Here's why*: Souzou Saisei and no knowledge on Kakashi's end, along with Kamui restricted. With this, Kakashi is basically fighting an unstoppable tank. And he isn't speed-blitzing her (she isn't dramatically slower than him; idk why she gets treated so unfairly on these threads). 

Most likely outcome, *based on the parameters set by the OP*, is Kakashi outsmarts her and stabs her with Lightning Blade while her Souzou Saisei is active. She pauses to get over the pain and then proceeds to punch him into oblivion with one strike (She was able to freak Madara Uchia with this; so I'm sure Kakashi won't see it coming either).This will probably be how he dies, unless he tests her with a shadow clone (like he normally does in his fights). Once the shadow clone is gone, he'll know she's got some serious durability, but she can rush him down like a tank and he won't be able to do much but run. 

As for genjutsu - I have never seen Kakashi use good genjutsu in a fight against a moving opponent. Even Madara Uchia hasn't done this without restricting the movement of his target. So genjutsu *is not a plausible option for Kakashi*. Ultimately Tsunade will rush down Kakashi until he's cornered and forced to fight. Then from there all it takes is one hit and bye bye. 

Tsunade wins this with extreme difficulty.


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## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Not much faster at all...



No. _Much_ faster. He was casually dealing with V2 Jinchurikis and kept pace with Obito all after fighting a straight day. She's not tagging him at all.



> And his MS is negated by Tsunade being a top tier in CQC. Same way Hidan was perfectly fine with Kakashi in CQC .



Because Hidan was outright demonstrated to have similar speed to Kakashi at the time. We all know Tsunade pales in comparison.



> She also has the durabilty to tank his strongest attack, top tiered regeneration, and physical strength capable of obliterating someone much more durable then Kakashi with a well placed punch . Let us also not forget her summoning that COMPLETELY Negates lighting blade , forms as a distraction , has top tier durabilty , and can one shot Kakashi .



Byakugo is restricted and with full knowledge, he'll know that decapitation will kill her (it arguably would kill her even *if* she had Byakugo). Even if he can't get a clean shot on her head, he can just cut off her limbs.

Tsunade is restricted a lot more than Kakashi.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> No. _Much_ faster. He was casually dealing with V2 Jinchurikis and kept pace with Obito all after fighting a straight day. She's not tagging him at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



V2 Jin's were dealt with by Bjuui bee, who was in turn reacted to by Suigestu. They aren't as fast as people make them out to be.

Obito was in a pre exhausted state, and Kishi made it heavily evident that his skill set had lowered via no usage of Kamui. They merely engaged in a Taijustu skirmish , where Kakashi won, probably because he had far more experience with taijustu then Obito who relies on phasing.

Hidan was not demonstrated to have similar speed. He was nearly outright caught in shikad shadow possession Justu. And even if he was "demonstrated to have around equal speed" then that brings us straight back to the disscussion at hand. Kakashi has never been indicated to be massively superior to Tsuande to in speed or even superior at all. His reactions might be better, I agree, but this is simply negated via CQC advantage, same way Hidan negated that advantage despite Kakashi wielding the MS.

Kakashi actually has no knowledge while Tsuande has full. This is the exact scenario where Tsunade forces Kakashi to lighting blade her through the chest then kills him. She has the Durabilty in base to run through his other pitiful elemental Justu, and the knowledge\reactions/ to force a chest puncture. It's to note that Tsuande is known for fighting causally with severe injuries, like blitzing Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed, and blitzing Oro with her mid section in pieces. She merely forced a lighting blade then plants a fist in Kakashis chest.


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## The Undying (Apr 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> DB stats are unreliable.
> ? Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
> ? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
> ? Tsunade with a "3.5" blogging Shizune and Oro.
> ...




Personally, I interpret these examples to mean that speed simply isn't the be-all and end-all the NBD likes to think it is. Even without taking DB stats into account, it seems obvious to me that characters will not be moving consistently at top speeds at all times in a fight (at least under IC stipulations) mainly due to stamina conservation for chakra production. I don't believe it matters to the degree that Character A outright stomps Character B by virtue of the former being one or two tiers faster, but that we can reliably use the stats to accurately gauge who might have a decisive advantage in speed _without_ immediately resorting to "lolblitz" conclusions.


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## Santoryu (Apr 23, 2014)

Starkiller is correct. Kakashi is* much* faster than Tsunade as evidenced by the manga.


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## Mercurial (Apr 23, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Starkiller is correct. Kakashi is* much* faster than Tsunade as evidenced by the manga.



Not only. 

Kakashi is much, much, much faster than Tsunade, and has also Sharingan precognition to boost his reflexes (no jokes, please). And he is also smarter, more skilled etc etc etc


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

Yeah that's nice. Any of you care to provide some feats to prove that he is much faster then someone that can blitz Oro?


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## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Typical Tsunade wanker. 

Downplaying Kakashi's speed feats.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Typical Tsunade wanker.
> 
> Downplaying Kakashi's speed feats.



That's nice. Care to reply to my post since you seem to think you are correct ?


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## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That's nice. Care to reply to my post since you seem to think you are correct ?



No need. You're just downplaying them to bring Kakashi down to Tsunade's level. We all know Kakashi has way better speed feats. Obviously biased.


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## Mithos (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> No need. You're just downplaying them to bring Kakashi down to Tsunade's level. We all know Kakashi has way better speed feats. Obviously biased.



Not possible. You haven't provided any feats for him to downplay


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> No need. You're just downplaying them to bring Kakashi down to Tsunade's level. We all know Kakashi has way better speed feats. Obviously biased.



So much faster yet you have failed to provide a feat with substantial evidence of such?


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## trance (Apr 23, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Not possible. You haven't provided any feats for him to downplay





Likes boss said:


> So much faster yet you have failed to provide a feat with substantial evidence of such?



>Casually held off V2 Jins
>Kept pace with Obito for an extended period of time
>Could perceive 8th Gate Gai's speed and Kamui Madara's barrier before Gai reached it



But I know you will just downplay them so whatever.


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> >Casually held off V2 Jins
> >Kept pace with Obito for an extended period of time
> >Could perceive 8th Gate Gai's speed and Kamui Madara's barrier before Gai reached it
> 
> ...



? The same V2 Jin that slow ass Bjuu bee was reacting to. Which in turn, Suigestu could also.

? barely won a taijustu skirmish with an exhausted and mentally unstable opponent who heavily relies on phasing in between attacks and probabaly has lackluster taijustu skill. Alright ?

? Gaara, Base Minato, and Lee not only were also able to track Gais movements, but were able to coordinate an attack with him. Get that "could track Gai" shit out of here.


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## Jad (Apr 24, 2014)

Wait....


This is Kakashi without Kamui vs. Tsunade without Byakugon. How is this a fair match? Tsunade can't afford to get hit.


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> Wait....
> 
> 
> This is Kakashi without Kamui vs. Tsunade without Byakugon. How is this a fair match? Tsunade can't afford to get hit.



Tsunade also has full knowledge compared to Kakashis none. She also has the skill and speed to keep up with Kakashi .

And guess what else? She has the durabilty and pain tolerance to take a lighting blade anywhere except maybe her skull . She also has SS to casually regenerate any damage with one seal .


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## Jad (Apr 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade also has full knowledge compared to Kakashis none. She also has the skill and speed to keep up with Kakashi .
> 
> And guess what else? She has the durabilty and pain tolerance to take a lighting blade anywhere except maybe her skull . She also has SS to casually regenerate any damage with one seal .



Well I did see Kakashi doing pretty well for himself not to get injured by a couple of Version 2. Jinchuuriki. And even without knowledge, Kakashi tends to send in clones. You gotta remember, Kakashi was doing pretty damn fine fighting Deva. and Asura without Kamui.

I personally believe while Tsunade is pre-occupied trying to land a linear punch (as she evidently does-so), this gives Kakashi clearance to Bunshin feint from underneath the ground (ala. Itachi and Deva). If she hits a Raiton Bunshin, Kakashi can go in there for the win as she temporarily paraylsed.

Without Kamui holding back his chakra reserves, Kakashi can easily pull these moves out without tiring himself as well. I feel like Tsunade is going to be out matched with clones and ninjutsu techniques and *raiton weaponary usage*. On top of Sharingan precognition, that will _most likely_ do well for avoiding and countering linear strikes from Tsunade. All she has is super strength on her side with no weapon or defense and a healing technique that requires concentration. Durability (in my words 'body toughness') means nothing in the way of Raikiri which can cleave through just about anything.

If Katsuya does come out, Kakashi only has to play the waiting come for the time limit to go out. Because Kakashi is not going to foolishly rush a giant summon like Katsuya.​


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> Well I did see Kakashi doing pretty well for himself not to get injured by a couple of Version 2. Jinchuuriki. And even without knowledge, Kakashi tends to send in clones. You gotta remember, Kakashi was doing pretty damn fine fighting Deva. and Asura without Kamui.
> 
> I personally believe while Tsunade is pre-occupied trying to land a linear punch (as she evidently does-so), this gives Kakashi clearance to Bunshin feint from underneath the ground (ala. Itachi and Deva). If she hits a Raiton Bunshin, Kakashi can go in there for the win as she temporarily paraylsed.
> 
> ...



The V2 Jin don't have much feats and are often overstated on these forums. I see Tsunade doing just as well against them.

Kakashi has Kage Bunshin true, but Tsuande very well knows this, and can dispel them nigh causally by earth punch and creating shockwaves the size of boss summonings.

Kakashi found it necessary from almost the start to call from assistance from Choji and Choza, which in turn helped Kakashi a massive amount. It's also to note that Kakashi didn't land a single lethal attack on Deva pain, merely held him back, and was chakra exhausted in the end. He also had more knowledge on pain then vice versa considering the intel he received prior.

Tsuande doesn't always use linear punches. This is simply the way you interpret her to do so lol. One who supports a perfect taijustu stat, and is hyped to be unparalleled in said category doesn't simply through linear attacks. She was actually tremendously nimble against Kabuto despite being both rusty and exhausted.  Even if  Tsunade simply threw linear punches, this doesn't in any way allow Kakashi go dodge them like clockwork. Goku is very linear despite the fact that a could land a hit on anyone in this manga. Tsuandes "linear " fighting style seems to work for her quite well( Oro, Manda, and Madara would agree ) and she should have no problems using her "linear " fighting style to kill Kakashi.

Do you think that Tsuande+ Katsuyu clones + Full knowledge will allow Kakashi to Bunshin feint ? No not happening. Especially when Kakashi is in a no knowledge situation.  Raiton Bunshin ? With full knowledge are dispatched by simply hitting the ground and creating shockwaves.

If Tsuande somehow happens to get paralyzed( I doubt it with her pain tolerance, durabilty, and regeneration) Kakashi will most like opt for lighting blade through her chest(as per canon) and that's where he looses his life.

Kakashi does have more chakra, but his chakra is still not even close to that of Tsuande. I feel that Tsuande( 5 tier intelligence) with full knowledge will be able to kill Kakashi before he discovers her entire arsenal.

Tsuande has the durabilty to outright tank any of Kakashis arsenal except possibly lighting blade. 

Sharingan is simply negated via taijustu advantage. This brings up Hidan vs Kakashi all over again. Kakashi was faster and had the MS, yet still couldn't dodge his attacks and was forced to parry his attacks to survive. You simply cannot parry a hit from Tsuande. Either you get hit( or the shockwave from hitting something else kills you) or you dodge. But then again Kakashi has zero knowledge on her taijustu skill, her boss summoning, her strength, her Durabilty, her pain tolerance, or regeneration. He could simply opt for a small taijustu skirmish and die.

She doesn't need a weapon( Gai) when she is top tiered in regeneration, strength and taijustu skill. Kakashi defiant stand a chance in CQC. 

It's never been stated that SS requires concentration. Considering Tsunade could cast the seal with her mid section in pieces, I am confident that Tsuande can cast a single seal.

Unless you believe lighting blade is many upon many times more penetrating then a direct Yasaka then I so no point in Tsuande dealing with lighting blade just fine. Even if she were to be hit, it would most likely be in the mid section region, where she quickly dispatches of Kakashi.

I am very skeptical about this "time limit " thing. I things more towards specific summonings. Katsuyu was revived beside Tsunade and healed her + 5 Kage for hours upon hours and still didn't deactivate. The sage toad was out for no more then 30 min against Juubito and was dispersed. I don't think Katusyu will go away any time soon. And if Kakashi wants to waste his chakra escaping a 100m boss summoning + acid blasts then he is obviously going to tire out before Tsunade does. Let's not forget that Katsuyu can multiply itself into thousands of clones that also can spit acid...


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## Mercurial (Apr 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah that's nice. Any of you care to provide some feats to prove that he is much faster then someone that can blitz Oro?



Kakashi is a man who could counterblitz some V2 Bijuu landing Raikiri 1 on them, they were troubling Bee and KCM Naruto. He has short reactions easily comparable to KCM Minato 2. He outspeeded and outreacted Obito, who was physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto 3, when KN1 Naruto was enough to speedblitz Orochimaru; has been called fast a lot of times, since he was a child (even from Minato himself), his speed is hyped even in databooks.

When Tsunade was rusty... Kabuto could dodge her punches to the point she exausted because she couldn't hit him. Tsunade may be in a better physical state... but current Kakashi is tiers and tiers faster than part 1 Kabuto, not to mention Sharingan, taijutsu skill, bushinjutsu and tricks etc.

Kakashi runs and opens Tsunade in half with Raiden. Even if she could try to punch him inspite the speed gap, Sharingan precog would let Kakashi easily counter it.

Oh and Itachi and Pain did know about Kakashi's skill but they were fooled nonethless. Guess what? Tsunade isn't smarter than them, and she hasn't a godly dojutsu.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 24, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi is much faster than her, almost 1.5 tiers faster than she is. The gap is ridiculously huge that Kakashi would be exploiting.



I fail to see the significance in this. There was a 1.5 speed difference between old Hiruzen and Orochimaru - yet Hiruzen easily keeps up with his pupil's movements and even manages to disarm him in CQC. There was a 1.5 speed difference between Kiba and Naruto during their exam, and yet Naruto wasn't being outright blitzed with every strike, even whenever Kiba increased his speed further with a food pill. There was a 2.0 speed difference between Ino and Asuma, and yet she could parry his blows while in Chouji's body. etc. etc.

A 1.5 speed difference doesn't mean Kakashi is going to blitz her all the time.



> Kakashi has known to take headshots against exceptionally tough individuals like Deva Path. Kakashi was aiming for his head his blow was redirected to the side of Deva Path's head. That was not a follow up strike, it was his initial first usage of Raikiri.



And yet, in his fight against Obito Kakashi _consistently_ aims his Raikiri at Obito's chest rather than his head, Obito being an even stronger opponent than Pein was. He does the same thing against Edo Zabuza. The fact of the matter is, yes, Kakashi is likely to throw some attacks at her head at some point, but unless he throws every single strike at her head throughout the duration of the match, he's not going to decapitate her. She's fast enough and skilled enough in taijutsu to protect herself or attempt to dodge/parry.



> So again, Kakashi, is not like every other ninja who would aim for the chest cavity. Has he done so in the past? Yes, but ever since taking on Kakuzu he's changed his fighting style.



His fights during the war would suggest otherwise.​​


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## Mithos (Apr 24, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> >Casually held off V2 Jins
> >Kept pace with Obito for an extended period of time
> >Could perceive 8th Gate Gai's speed and Kamui Madara's barrier before Gai reached it
> 
> ...



>There was nothing "casual" about his fight with the Jins, and he also had backup. And what about the Jins implies that they'd be too fast for Tsunade or any of the other Gokage? 

>Since when has Obito been super fast? He was dangerous because of his S/T ninjutsu not his physical speed. And the entire fight was practically Kakashi, Naruto, Gai and Bee coordinating attacks and strategies - Kakashi would not have fared well on his own. 

>Gai was in mid-air then; he was literally pushing off the air. He wasn't going anywhere near his top-speed because of this. In fact, Gaara's sand had no problems keeping up with an air-born Gai. 

Try again. 

The point is not that Kakashi isn't fast, or that he isn't faster than Tsunade. The point is that he's so not so much faster that she cannot deal with his speed. 

Kakashi has never been a character that overwhelms high-level opponents with his speed. Nor has he been one that can avoid all the attacks his slower opponents throw at him. Please provide me examples of Kakashi's speed overwhelming Kage level opponents. Because I have many examples to the contrary. 

Kakashi vs Hidan: Hidan was able to keep up just fine. And what has Hidan done to suggest that he's significantly faster than Tsunade? And he's inferior CQC-wise to her. To put this into perspective, Asuma didn't have a problem with Hidan's speed either. Nor did Shikamaru. 

Kakashi vs Pain: At no point during the match was Kakashi's speed an issue. 

Kakashi vs Kakuzu: Kakuzu was also able to keep up with Kakashi, out-do him in CQC, react to him, and even force him into the air where he could grab him with his tendrils. Ino, Shikamaru and Chouji were able to keep up in a fight as well. Particularly Shikamaru who dodged a blind-sided attack at the last second. 

Kakashi vs. Jins: Kakashi dealt with their speed just fine. But neither side was too fast for the other. 

Kakashi vs Obito: Again, same thing. Obito's physical speed has never been shown or implied to be that fast. Neither side had a problem with speed. 

It's very rare in this manga for two Kage level, or high level, opponents to not be able to keep up/react to one another. Even in fights where one opponent is remarked to be particularly fast, the other almost always has methods to counter the speed - at least enough to make it a tough fight. 

Neither Kakashi nor Tsunade are going to struggle against each other's speed in this match. Kakashi is not so fast that he can overwhelm Tsunade; nor is Tsunade so much slower that Kakashi cannot be hit, particularly if he enters into close range.


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## Mercurial (Apr 24, 2014)

Typical Tsunadefans.

Databook stats count, feats don't matter! When Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu, even if she does only smashy-smashy and a lot of characters with better feats have a lover stat.

Databook stats don't count, feats matter! When Tsunade's stats are shitty compared to other characters.

Portrayal is everything! Tsunade can defeat Asuma or people like these by portrayal.

Lol at portrayal! Tsunade can draw if not even win with base Minato. This is actually wrong not only by portrayal but by feats too, because Minato can tag and bisect her, but anyway.

And then you ask why in every thread there are only the same people arguing for Tsunade with the same insincere double-arguments... I wonder why...

Btw, databook stats are an inconsistent shit, this is clear. They mean nothing to the actual manga. And the manga shows things clearly.


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi is a man who could counterblitz some V2 Bijuu landing Raikiri 1 on them, they were troubling Bee and KCM Naruto. He has short reactions easily comparable to KCM Minato 2. He outspeeded and outreacted Obito, who was physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto 3, when KN1 Naruto was enough to speedblitz Orochimaru; has been called fast a lot of times, since he was a child (even from Minato himself), his speed is hyped even in databooks.
> 
> When Tsunade was rusty... Kabuto could dodge her punches to the point she exausted because she couldn't hit him. Tsunade may be in a better physical state... but current Kakashi is tiers and tiers faster than part 1 Kabuto, not to mention Sharingan, taijutsu skill, bushinjutsu and tricks etc.
> 
> ...



Here we go again with the implication that the V2 Jin are speedsters or anything.  They don't have any feats to suggest they are fast at all.

KCM Naruto and slow add Bjuii bee were reacting to them fine. Naruto was simply overpowered via numbers. Same way Kakashi is too: 3

It's also to note that Kakashi was only able to "blitz " the Jin because he simply took a few steps forward... And casted lighting blade after the Jin had already started charging. It is shown the next panel later that the Jin are dodging Kakashi: 3

So I don't see any reason to believe Tsuande can't simply replicate this feat and dodge Kakashi herself. 

He defeated Obito in a taijustu skirmish while Obito was exhausted and mentally unustable. It's also to note that Kishi made it very evident that Obito heavily relies on Kamui, and is lackluster in taijustu without it.

Can you link the actual Kakashi and Minato chapter? Cause just posting pictures leaves a ton of important information out. Anyway, it's evident that Minato wasn't using his full speed as he prior to that scene was able to traverse from an unknown distance and grab Kakashi arm when it was mere inches away from Obito.




You mean the Tobi that vanished from this air then appeared below Naruto in a surprise attack? Then I guess you also missed the part where Naruto reached to him despite not being impressive in CQC : 3

Show me a scan where KN1 Naruto blitzed Oro. Cause I remember Oro reacting to KN4 Naruto without difficulty.

His speed is hyped true. But Tsunade has more hype in CQC then Kakashi has for speed, which is the reason Tsunade wins here.

Kabuto could dodge a rusty and exhausted Tsunade with the aid of soldier pills. At the end of the day she had the speed to blitz him, and Kabuto had to resort to cutting himself to stay alive. It's also to note that Tsunade at the time was not serious and was way faster against Oro. Her speed speed jumped significantly once she got serious ; Blitzing Oro and fodderizing Manda. There is also a large gap between Healthy Tsunade and Rusty+ Exhausted Tsunade.

Kakashi is not speed blitzing Tsuande. 

Can you link me somewhere whee it shows that pain had knowledge on Kakashi. It doesn't matter anyway, as they both had knowledge Apposed to Kakashi having known and Tsunade having full.


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## Veracity (Apr 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Typical Tsunadefans.
> 
> Databook stats count, feats don't matter! When Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu, even if she does only smashy-smashy and a lot of characters with better feats have a lover stat.
> 
> ...



Tsunade has a 5 in taijustu as well as a ridiculous amount of hype. It's also to note that the DB is mostly inconsistent regarding speed and Genjustu. Taijustu, Ninjustu, and strength are pretty accurate. Nonetheless, Tsunade doesn't even need the DB to show that she is excellent in CQC . She easily has the hype ,'and the feats also.

Portrayal does matter in a way. Tsunade is viewed way higher then Asuma, she could basically beat him if she didn't have a single feat. 100 chapters ago would you be arguing Sakura > Tobirama? Yeah no. It doesn't really matter much as by feats Tsuande destroys Asuma regardless .

I agree that base Minato can beat Tsuande.

lol it's just funny cause the Tsunade fan base is one of the strongest fan bases on the forums. We seem to be able to agree our points pretty well, and can use her feats to disprove most posters. Some of us can argue SM Jirayia< Tsunade, and actually make sense of it. It's mostly because we actually know how to debate Tsuande and practically have her feats stored in out memory. Most other posters(you) don't know anything about Tsunade and ague against her with baseless information. You think that because she isn't as nimble as Kakashi( though she was against Kabuto) that she isn't good at evasion. You think just because she uses "somewhat" "linear" attacks that she isn't a Taijustu expert. You think just because she is incredibly storing that isn't fast . All wrong lol and this is evident based on her implication and speed. Ya know what ? It's possible to be super strong and quick( hulk) and you can be "linear " and be a CQC expert(broly).


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## Mithos (Apr 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> If Katsuya does come out, Kakashi only has to play the waiting come for the time limit to go out. Because Kakashi is not going to foolishly rush a giant summon like Katsuya.[/justify]



And how exactly does he do that? 

It's not going to be easy dodging giant blasts of acid. Especially if Katsuyu splits up and spits it from multiple directions. Tsunade's also not going to just stop attacking either. She can force him out of hiding underground. If Katsuyu spits acid at Kakashi it should force him to jump out of the way, and Tsunade can attempt to capitalize on that opening. If Tsunade forces Kakashi to jump away from the AoE destruction of her punches or 'Painful Sky Leg,' Katsuyu can like-wise blast acid at Kakashi while he's open. 

Outlasting the summoning is not really going to be feasible.


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## LostSelf (Apr 26, 2014)

I see Kakashi besting Tsunade with swift movements thanks to his sharingan precog, that it's often very overlooked. Not only he is faster, not only she has shown predictable moves, not only Kakashi has been fighting the _best_ taijutsu user in this manga, that, on top of that, is confortably faster than her, but he also can predict her movements and has a way to bypass her durability.

On top of that, he has been to be considerably superior when it comes to analytical inteligence in fighting and can trick her as well. Kakashi's superiority in CqC is very notable in this fight to give him a good advantage over her.

His trickery would end up with Tsunade defeated, especially if she's paralyzed hitting a _Raiton Bunshin_ and he cuts her in half before she can do anything.

No knowledge doesn't hurt him much when his IC behavior is finding out his enemy's skills with clones, but he likes to go to the heart with Raikiris, even though Haku was able to move briefly after being hit, he still tried that with Deva, however, none of those had super strenght, so it's safe to assume that he might not take that risk anymore.

Exodia makes this even if it starts doing OOC maneuvers, therefore i wouldn't be so sure. Kakashi's stamina in the war arc is huge, and without spamming Kamui, i see him fighting a long, long time. Probably enough to outlast the summoning time limit.

But i would say this is a 50/50 in case the slug divides into 3thousand mini-slugs throwing Big bang Kamehameha x10 at the same time, while Tsunade attacks in tandem, not being hit by any of these acids.

Ok, joking aside, still a 50/50.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> • The same V2 Jin that slow ass Bjuu bee was reacting to. Which in turn, Suigestu could also.
> 
> • barely won a taijustu skirmish with an exhausted and mentally unstable opponent who heavily relies on phasing in between attacks and probabaly has lackluster taijustu skill. Alright ?
> 
> • Gaara, Base Minato, and Lee not only were also able to track Gais movements, but were able to coordinate an attack with him. Get that "could track Gai" shit out of here.



1) Seeing what you want to see. V2 Jin were fast enough to rampage Naruto, and of course Bee could react. There's nothing slow about him or his attacks, being large =//= slow, but it certainly makes landing hits easier when it has such a wide range. Suigetsu reacted with a huge water wave that Bee couldn't get past right away.

2) Kakashi was ALSO exhausted and couldn't even warp out of Kamui Land for how many chapters? He lost his cloak entirely upon warping and was resting on the little amount of his own chakra he had left. Obito has _senju DNA_. His chances of being exhausted are far lower.

3) Tracking Gai isn't any better than saying Tsunade was equal to the other Gokages speeds during the Madara fight at times.

Kakashi's feats against V2 Jin (alongside 6th gated Gai, mind you) out level any speed feat Tsunade has shown. Your arguments are not solid for countering them. And while I have nothing against Tsunade fans, they're notorious for downplaying other characters speed in comparison to her own.


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## trance (Apr 26, 2014)

Tsunade's movements are too linear for Kakashi. He will see every blow coming and will promptly dodge.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Tsunade's movements are too linear for Kakashi. He will see every blow coming and will promptly dodge.



And what happens if Kakashi's the one to go on the offensive? She's statistically his superior in Taijutsu proficiency, so it may very well wind up being a replay of _Sharingan_ Sasuke vs. _Base_ Kakashi, except when Tsunade retaliates Kakashi will get blown apart.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 26, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And what happens if Kakashi's the one to go on the offensive? She's statistically his superior in Taijutsu proficiency, so it may very well wind up being a replay of _Sharingan_ Sasuke vs. _Base_ Kakashi, except when Tsunade retaliates Kakashi will get blown apart.



Taijutsu superiority comes into play a lot more when you're faster than the opponent or on equal grounds. (unless you lack ninjutsu but different topic). And comments like these love to pretend feints/clones don't exist or are somehow helpless to do anything in Kakashi's favor for the match. He somehow "won't have time" to make one, right?

We're just going back and forth to the same issue.


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## mahomy (Apr 26, 2014)

Kakashi's overall skill trumps tsunade, and if you seen him in the recent manga chapters you would know his skill withe the sharingan has increased 10-fold. Remember, he was one considered for hokage.


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> 1) Seeing what you want to see. V2 Jin were fast enough to rampage Naruto, and of course Bee could react. There's nothing slow about him or his attacks, being large =//= slow, but it certainly makes landing hits easier when it has such a wide range. Suigetsu reacted with a huge water wave that Bee couldn't get past right away.
> 
> 2) Kakashi was ALSO exhausted and couldn't even warp out of Kamui Land for how many chapters? He lost his cloak entirely upon warping and was resting on the little amount of his own chakra he had left. Obito has _senju DNA_. His chances of being exhausted are far lower.
> 
> ...



Bee In Bjuii mode has never been mentioned to have fast CQC moves, unless you care to provide some feats? 

Kakashi was also not mentally unstable and has a large advantage in CQC. So beating Obito( who relies on Kamui) in CQC isn't as impressive as StarKiller made it out to be.

What? Yes Obito has Senju DNA, but bag doesn't change the fact that he was simultaneously controlling 6 Bjuii , and fighting Gai, Naruto, and Kakashi at the same time. He was probably more chakra exhausted then Kakashi. Not that it matters anyway.

Exactly. He used "tracking Gai" as some sort of feat to counter Tsunades taijustu skill. So I countered by saying that Tsunade fights beside Gaara and reacts faster then him at certain instances. So Gaara should not have better reaction feats then Tsuande. And he also was able to "track Gai ."

That's nice.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> Taijutsu superiority comes into play a lot more when you're faster than the opponent or on equal grounds. (unless you lack ninjutsu but different topic).



Unless you think Kakashi can outright blitz, which I don't, then the disparity in skill is going to come into play every bit as much as it would were they on equal grounds. The importance of direct movement speed is diminished when considered in close-proximity.



> And comments like these love to pretend feints/clones don't exist or are somehow helpless to do anything in Kakashi's favor for the match. He somehow "won't have time" to make one, right?



You show me where Starkiller included any of the factors above in his sentiment. Otherwise, this is just a rather sorry attempt at a straw-man considering the content of one of my earlier posts included clones.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 26, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I fail to see the significance in this. There was a 1.5 speed difference between old Hiruzen and Orochimaru - yet Hiruzen easily keeps up with his pupil's movements and even manages to disarm him in CQC. There was a 1.5 speed difference between Kiba and Naruto during their exam, and yet Naruto wasn't being outright blitzed with every strike, even whenever Kiba increased his speed further with a food pill. There was a 2.0 speed difference between Ino and Asuma, and yet she could parry his blows while in Chouji's body. etc. etc.
> 
> A 1.5 speed difference doesn't mean Kakashi is going to blitz her all the time.​


Itachi w/a .5 speed gap was basically able to dance circles around Kakashi, Kakashi with a wider gap will be able to do the same. He's speed is greater than her which means he'll be able to execute seals faster. The example with Orochimaru is irrelevant because he was mocking the third for the majority of the battle.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> And yet, in his fight against Obito Kakashi _consistently_ aims his Raikiri at Obito's chest rather than his head, Obito being an even stronger opponent than Pein was. He does the same thing against Edo Zabuza. The fact of the matter is, yes, Kakashi is likely to throw some attacks at her head at some point, but unless he throws every single strike at her head throughout the duration of the match, he's not going to decapitate her. She's fast enough and skilled enough in taijutsu to protect herself or attempt to dodge/parry.


He was still attempting to get through to his friend, that was more plot oriented.​


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## Bringer (Apr 26, 2014)

We all know how this is going to go


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 26, 2014)




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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2014)

@Ryuzaki

The speed stat doesn't mean much . It really contradicts itself.

Like....
DB stats are unreliable.
? Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
? Tsunade with a "3.5" blitzing Shizune and Oro.
? Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
? Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact that Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
? Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.
? PTS Lee, Kakuzu, Kisame, and PTS Kakashi all sharing the same speed stat.
? Tenten> Hiruzen in speed.
? PTS Neji> Hidan in speed. 

Anyway, Hidan with a 3.5 compared to Kakashis 4.5 + Sharingan engaged Kakashi in taijustu perfectly fine. Ya know why? Because he was better in CQC skirmishs then Kakashi.


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## Bringer (Apr 27, 2014)

*@Ryuzaki*

I agree. Tsunade will be chilling in the shade under a tree while Katsuyu solo's. 

Anyway I don't even know why this is being argued. While I will agree that this battle could very well go either way(even though I'm leaning more towards Tsunade) Katsuyu practically stomps. I know most people tend to use exodia Katusyu as a joke, but Kakashi literally has nothing in his arsenal to down the thing. He eventually gets swarmed and killed.


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## Jad (Apr 27, 2014)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Ryuzaki*
> 
> I agree. Tsunade will be chilling in the shade under a tree while Katsuyu solo's.
> 
> Anyway I don't even know why this is being argued. While I will agree that this battle could very well go either way(even though I'm leaning more towards Tsunade) Katsuyu practically stomps. I know most people tend to use exodia Katusyu as a joke, but Kakashi literally has nothing in his arsenal to down the thing. He eventually gets swarmed and killed.



Kakashi is not going down to a boss summon, you are pretty much proving peoples points on Katsuya....the exodia part.


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## Bringer (Apr 27, 2014)

Portrayal wise Kakashi isn't losing to a boss summon. It'd never happen in the manga.

Feat wise...


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## Bonly (Apr 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Here we go again with the implication that the V2 Jin are speedsters or anything.  They don't have any feats to suggest they are fast at all.



It's more of a common sense type thing with them and their speed kinda like how we haven't seen a single speed feat from Kaguya yet we know Tenten isn't gonna blitz her. Yes it's a a bit of an extreme example but you get the point. We have constantly seen Jins when using their Bijuu's chakra to be mentioned/seen them moving faster then before.

 When Gaara was going through his mini transformation Sasuke noted that he was "faster then before" once he gained a tail. During the Chunin exams Neji noted that Naruto when in his "KN0" form was getting faster. Naruto who during the first two arc should nothing too impressive speed wise was able to completely outright speed blitz Orochi with one tail only and I don't think I need to show an example of B+KCM Naruto either as you should remember their showings better then the others. But as you can see when a Jin uses their Bijuu's chakra their speed ends up being boosted. So even without feats people usually got the idea the the V2 Jins are notably fast and as we know they each had a Sharingan+Rinnegan eye which helps them dodge/counter just like Sasuke who went from getting blitzed by KN0 Naruto to beating his ass which makes them being hit by Kakashi+Gai just a bit more impressive. So yes they do have the "implication" of "speedsters or anything".


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2014)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Portrayal wise Kakashi isn't losing to a boss summon. It'd never happen in the manga.
> 
> Feat wise...



Why exactly is Kakashi not losing to one of a living legend's legendary creatures, Jad?

In the manga Katsuyu is a portion of the arsenal of a Hokage, so there's nothing wrong with him going down to it when he has shown no way to deal with it.


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2014)

3 Boss summons are part of a legendary Sannin, and were kicked aside easily by Deva Path.

Manda is a summon of another legendary Sannin, and was used as fodder by Sasuke.

Portrayal wise, and considering that Katsuyu is an equal to those two, i don't see it defeating Kakashi in the manga.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> 3 Boss summons are part of a legendary Sannin, and were kicked aside easily by Deva Path.



Three boss summon's are part of a Sannin's arsenal and when they all jumped into a single _Shinra Tensei_-able area against the same person that beat down a Kakashi who had backup they lost to a part of Nagato's arsenal.

Kakashi has no abilities analogous to _Shinra Tensei_.



> Manda is a summon of another legendary Sannin, and was used as fodder by Sasuke.



A part of Orochimaru's arsenal was the only way Sasuke could have possibly escaped with his life, because had he used any other summon it would have already been obliterated in that brief moment that _C0_ hit Manda.



> Portrayal wise, and considering that Katsuyu is an equal to those two, i don't see it defeating Kakashi in the manga.



I heavily disagree, especially with Kakashi having displayed no counters to it.


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Three boss summon's are part of a Sannin's arsenal and when they all jumped into a single _Shinra Tensei_-able area against the same person that beat down a Kakashi who had backup they lost to a part of Nagato's arsenal.
> 
> Kakashi has no abilities analogous to _Shinra Tensei_.
> 
> ...



It's not because of the counters i am basing my argument of, nor the feats. I am talking about portrayal, Kakashi with Kamui is heavily superior to Hebi Sasuke, who used Manda as a meatshield. He could've done so anytime he wanted if he could do it without chakra and pressured by a bomb.

Wich Manda is an equal to Katsuyu, and an equal to Gamabunta. Story wise, i don't see Kishi making a boss summon defeat Kakashi, whose protrayal probably equaled Itachi's, surpassed Hebi Sasuke and has a jutsu that can take down other boss summons equal to Katsuyu.

Feat-wise i don't know how Kakashi can take down Katsuyu. Manda and Gamabunta can die via Kamui Snipe in their heads, Katsuyu i don't know, but the summon is not superior nor inferior to those two, and sure, Deva Path might be still stronger than Kakashi, but Hebi Sasuke is not.

About Sasuke needing a part of Orochimaru's arsenal to survive, i agree, but it was not my point. My point was about Manda, a Sannin summon portrayed to be equal to Katsuyu, being easily used by an exhausted Sasuke heavily inferior to Kakashi when it comes to portrayal.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The speed stat doesn't mean much . It really contradicts itself.
> 
> Like....
> DB stats are unreliable.



There are inconsistencies in everything though, not just in the databook. There are plenty of of them in the manga itself, especially when it comes to feats. They also exist in portrayal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use them as valid sources, though.

I think the most accurate way of judging fights and making comparisons is by using _all_ the sources of information that Kishimoto has provided us with. 



> ? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.



I don't remember the exact scenario, but I know for a fact that V1 Bee's attacks are quite linear. Also, Kisame has a 4.5 in taijutsu, even with a noticeable speed disadvantage he can compensate. 



> ? Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi



Kakashi was exhausted and not moving at his top speeds.



> ? Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact that Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.



He attacked from a distance. Also, Deidara's lack of skill in taijutsu meant that he couldn't engage Sasuke up close at all - he didn't even try to parry or block, he just jumped away, which is a measure of his speed rather than his taijutsu. 



> ? Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.



Why is this so hard to accept? Neither of them are speedsters but they are obviously far above average. 



> ? PTS Lee, Kakuzu, Kisame, and PTS Kakashi all sharing the same speed stat.



Again, I don't really see a problem with this.



> ? Tenten> Hiruzen in speed.



Hiruzen is old, Tenten is young and excels in taijutsu. This is perfectly understandable. 



> ? PTS Neji> Hidan in speed.



PTS Neji was well above Genin-level, and with the 64 Palms he can throw 32 strikes successively in mere seconds, which is faster than anything Hidan has done.​​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2014)

The first time Hidan went after Kakashi he wasn't exhausted.



LostSelf said:


> It's not because of the counters i am basing my argument of, nor the feats. I am talking about portrayal, Kakashi with Kamui is heavily superior to Hebi Sasuke, who used Manda as a meatshield. He could've done so anytime he wanted if he could do it without chakra and pressured by a bomb.



If we just go granting completely new abilities we can just be ignoring the relevance of matchup. Portrayal is used best to supplement the plausibility of potential ways to victory with displayed abilities (save for when something is explicitly stated to be the case, that's one even better use, but other than that).

Kakashi vs Katsuyu contrasted to vs. Gamabunta and Manda can feed into my original point about thinking about it simply as a portion of Tsunade's arsenal. Consider it nothing but Kakashi vs. Tsunade contrasted to vs. Jiraiya and Orochimaru: Katsuyu's body is a better counter to Kamui than the other boss summons, but Jiraiya and Orochimaru's defenses lie outside of summoning, she does not need to be superior to them for Kakashi to be unable to deal with her (and even outside of this equivocation to the Sannin themselves, you can still just call it matchup- the Three-Way-Deadlock itself illustrates that being someone's equal doesn't inherently mean you can't counter an ability they can't).

I don't see how Kakashi's portrayal equals Itachi's and/or surpasses Hebi Sasuke's, especially when _Kamui_ is restricted in this thread.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 27, 2014)

Also just a general rule of thumb, RKB + Raikiri through the heart or head would kill her.





Likes boss said:


> @Ryuzaki
> 
> The speed stat doesn't mean much . It really contradicts itself.
> 
> ...


It's cause Kakashi was fighting 2 vs. 1, he was also worried about Kakuzu and Team 10. Hidan had time to react because Kakahsi wasn't 100%, he had just let off multiple ninjutsu attacks.

Orochimaru had a fever and couldn't use his arms, that kind of slows him down don't ya think?

I don't think the stats include additional items (e.g. a flying bird) into Deidara's speed stat account. They had the same speed otherwise but Sasuke had the sharingan so that gave him the upper hand to react.


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The first time Hidan went after Kakashi he wasn't exhausted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do agree with your second paragraph, however this wasn't my point. 

My point is Kakashi being above Katsuyu, and that shinobis similar to his level have countered/defeated equal or stronger beings than Katsuyu (Bijuu hunters such as Hidan) and that just because 'it is the summon of a kage' doesn't mean that it needs to give Kakashi (or any other shinobi) enough troubles. Not that Kakashi will kill Katsuyu, he can counter it, trick it, dodge it, etc.

Sasuke didn't defeat Manda, but he used it as his bitch, Deva fodderized them. A 'Summon of a Kage' doesn't always needs to be a game changer. And that has been proven by the arsenal of Nagato's arsenal. Wich Kakashi should at least, match.

About him being portrayed equal to Itachi o above Sasuke, he already kept pace with Itachi, albeit for little time, and that was way before he got a tremendous upgrade. I counted his Kamui here because i am comparing him to an unrestricted version of Itachi or Hebi Sasuke, wich i think we don't need to go into details about current Kakashi with Mangekyo being his superior.


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## Mithos (Apr 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Tsunade's movements are too linear for Kakashi. He will see every blow coming and will promptly dodge.



If he's on the defensive, yes. 

But in actual fights, characters are constantly switching between offense and defense and are open to counter-attacks. If he throws an attack at her and she dodges or blocks it, she can retaliate. When someone dodges or blocks your attack, you can't move right away because of momentum. I'm always surprised this forum treats speed as if it's hiraishin and you can throw a punch and then teleport away. That's never how taijutsu has worked in this manga, and slower opponents have bested, pressured and hit, faster opponents in CQC. 

In fights, characters are often hit when they are forced into positions where they cannot dodge. For example, Kakashi vs Kakuzu. Kakashi tried to retreat from Kakuzu by jumping back to gain distance, and was instead caught by Kakuzu's tendrils because he was unable to dodge them while in mid-air  The collateral AoE damage of Tsunade's strikes can force Kakashi into the air - either by knocking him into the air, or forcing him to jump - as can Katsuyu's acid. Katsuyu's clones can also throw themselves at Kakashi, like when then threw themselves at Ino, Shizune and Ibiki to protect them from Pain. 

The argument that Tsunade's hits are "too linear" or that Sharingan pre-cog will allow him to always dodge doesn't hold up.


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## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2014)

Sasuke with precog. Defeated the Naruto that was blitzing him all over the place, in a taijutsu exchange. 

However, i do agree that Kakashi's best bet is not fighting Tsunade in CqC, but considering how Tsunade always fights, it looks like she will be the one on the offensive most of the time, while Kakashi will be countering with a cold head.


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> It's more of a common sense type thing with them and their speed kinda like how we haven't seen a single speed feat from Kaguya yet we know Tenten isn't gonna blitz her. Yes it's a a bit of an extreme example but you get the point. We have constantly seen Jins when using their Bijuu's chakra to be mentioned/seen them moving faster then before.
> 
> When Gaara was going through his mini transformation Sasuke noted that he was "faster then before" once he gained a tail. During the Chunin exams Neji noted that Naruto when in his "KN0" form was getting faster. Naruto who during the first two arc should nothing too impressive speed wise was able to completely outright speed blitz Orochi with one tail only and I don't think I need to show an example of B+KCM Naruto either as you should remember their showings better then the others. But as you can see when a Jin uses their Bijuu's chakra their speed ends up being boosted. So even without feats people usually got the idea the the V2 Jins are notably fast and as we know they each had a Sharingan+Rinnegan eye which helps them dodge/counter just like Sasuke who went from getting blitzed by KN0 Naruto to beating his ass which makes them being hit by Kakashi+Gai just a bit more impressive. So yes they do have the "implication" of "speedsters or anything".



All of what you said isn't important accept the Oro feat.

Anyway, Oro clearly stood and took that hit evident by the fact that he could react to 4k Naruto( who gets faster right because of the Bjuii enhancement like you just explained) pretty darn perfectly once he got serious. 

This also evidenced by the fact that he was able to casually react to a chakra arm( known for being pretty damn fast) from a faster version of Naruto from the same distance: Sharingan+Rinnegan eye

He was also reacting to 4k Naruto; Sharingan+Rinnegan eye
Sharingan+Rinnegan eye
Sharingan+Rinnegan eye

And landing hits on him: Sharingan+Rinnegan eye
Sharingan+Rinnegan eye

So unless we are to believe that Kyyubi cloaked Naruto is a ridiculous amount faster then 4k Naruto( couldn't blitz him once) then Oro was either not trying, or was trying to be hit.

True V2 Jin's are fast, I know this, but it's no feat to give to Kakashi to "overwhelm " Tsunade. I already have concrete feats of Bjuii Bee reacting to them, when Bjuii bee(using his full body) isn't even fast, he's actually slower then Tsuande in that form. So I have no problems assuming that Tsunade can react to people who can react to V2 Bjuii.

But then again I still wouldn't agree they are speedsters...


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> There are inconsistencies in everything though, not just in the databook. There are plenty of of them in the manga itself, especially when it comes to feats. They also exist in portrayal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use them as valid sources, though.
> 
> I think the most accurate way of judging fights and making comparisons is by using _all_ the sources of information that Kishimoto has provided us with.
> 
> ...




Linear attacks don't mean anything lol. For someone that loves Tsuande so much , I think we both should know that the speed of the attack is what makes it overwhelming in this specific case. Here is the feat actually in which Kisame went completely under killer bee with his big ass sword. It's to note that he moved after bee and reacted before bee got to him: Sharingan+Rinnegan eye

It doesn't matter that the attacks is linear as V1 bee is easily in the 5 subcategory of speed, and also most likely sports a perfect stat in taijustu. According to the DB, it is impossible for Kisame to have reacted to that attacks basically.

Kakashi was not exhausted at the first moment he engaged in taijustu. 

Hebi Sasuke used Tobi as a distraction to
blitz Deidara. Meaning that Deidara had to look away from Tobi to realize that Sasuke was already gone, then had to realize that Sasuke was behind him and dodge. All Sasuke had to to was shunshin and blitz. That feat just isn't even logical when both have the same speed stat. Sasuke is better in CQC( which kind of means evasion) has the Sharingan, and had an advantage.

The speed stat includes reactions, and Kisame casually reacts to top tiers. Yamato should not hold the same speed stat.

PTS Lee , Kakuzu, and PTS Kakashi being able to react to V1 bee is just not feasible.

Just no. In no way should fodder Tenten be as fast as a Kage. Especially a Kage that holds a perfect taijustu stat and should easily be nimble on his toes( as shown against the Edo Kage) and a Kage that was able to pressure Oro in CQC, and casually evade Kage level Justu. I just don't see it tbh. 

Speed also includes movement speed and reactions in which Hidan is clearly surperior to Neji in , as Neji would never be able to compete with immortals arc Kakashi in CQC. 

I see how you left the Shikamaru feat out lol, anyway, why are you arguing against me ! I was trying to help your point actually.


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Also just a general rule of thumb, RKB + Raikiri through the heart or head would kill her.It's cause Kakashi was fighting 2 vs. 1, he was also worried about Kakuzu and Team 10. Hidan had time to react because Kakahsi wasn't 100%, he had just let off multiple ninjutsu attacks.
> 
> Orochimaru had a fever and couldn't use his arms, that kind of slows him down don't ya think?
> 
> I don't think the stats include additional items (e.g. a flying bird) into Deidara's speed stat account. They had the same speed otherwise but Sasuke had the sharingan so that gave him the upper hand to react.



Tsuande has already had her heart a slashed into pieces and recovered just fine. She was also able to blitz Oro in this state.

No. There was times , when it was just Hidan vs Kakashi , and he failed to get the upper hand multiple times.

Oro did not have a fever? And him not having arms doesn't change much. He still could move his legs , which account for speed. He still would have the chance to move his body, mouth , or attempt to move away instead of not being able to move at all.

That doesn't even counter my point ? And I like how you neglect the other 6 points I brought up.


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## Bonly (Apr 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> All of what you said isn't important accept the Oro feat.



Doesn't matter if you think their important or not, they are evidence.



> Anyway, Oro clearly stood and took that hit evident by the fact that he could react to 4k Naruto( who gets faster right because of the Bjuii enhancement like you just explained) pretty darn perfectly once he got serious.



None of the things he reacted to(that you showed) where as fast as the main body and reacted to things slower then what he got blitz by isn't a good way to discredit the blitz.



> This also evidenced by the fact that he was able to casually react to a chakra arm( known for being pretty damn fast) from a faster version of Naruto from the same distance: Sharingan+Rinnegan eye



Chakra arms have never been as fast(or durable for that matter) as the main body moving and no they wasn't at the same distance. As you can see here here they are on the middle of the bridge and Oroch is a few feet in front of him before he got blitz. The scan you posted shows Orochi at the end of the bridge while Naruto was at the middle of the bridge and didn't move when he attacked with the chakra. That means that the distance when Naruto blitz Orochi with one tail and Naruto who attacked with a chakra arm isn't the same. 



> He was also reacting to 4k Naruto; the middle
> the middle
> the middle



Yes he reacted to chakra arms which have never been shown nor hinted to be faster then the main body moving(unless you have evidence otherwise that is) as well as Bijuudama which he had 8 pages worth of time to see coming with quite a distance between them. 



> And landing hits on him: the middle
> the middle



Wow he landed a hit when Naruto made no attempt to dodge(as you can see on previous pages) and a sneak attack. Doesn't help your overall point. 



> So unless we are to believe that Kyyubi cloaked Naruto is a ridiculous amount faster then 4k Naruto( couldn't blitz him once) then Oro was either not trying, or was trying to be hit.



Not at all, the examples you gave wasn't that good to say otherwise. You used things which are slower then the main body to discredit the blitz as if Orochi let it happen which doesn't hold up.



> True V2 Jin's are fast, I know this, but it's no feat to give to Kakashi to "overwhelm " Tsunade. I already have concrete feats of Bjuii Bee reacting to them, when Bjuii bee(using his full body) isn't even fast, he's actually slower then Tsuande in that form. So I have no problems assuming that Tsunade can react to people who can react to V2 Bjuii.
> 
> But then again I still wouldn't agree they are speedsters...



I couldn't careless about this whole "overwhelm" thing and whether Tsunade can react to them or not thing. You said "Here we go again with the implication that the V2 Jin are speedsters or anything. They don't have any feats to suggest they are fast at all." and I'm just showing otherwise. You can think they aren't speedsters for whatever reason but do you still think there are no implications that are or anything?


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## Dr. White (Apr 27, 2014)

Kakashi isn't gonna get hit before he notices she hits super hard. This fight will most likely end up outside, Kakashi can defend because of his doton, and suijinheki if need be. Tsunade will be at a disadvantage because Kakashi has 3 elements on her, and clones. He will eventually figure her out, and figure a suprise raiden to the neck or Raikiri to the brain is needed. He had doton, dogs, and Lightning clones to aid in this: I seem him taking High diff because of the no knowledge, a solid 8/10 times.


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Doesn't matter if you think their important or not, they are evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Evidence that holds zero merit as we actually have feats to disprove such.

It doesn't matter if the chakra arms "are slower " by your opinion then the main body, as one tailed Naruto blitzed Oro, opposed to 3 tailed chakra arms being causally dodged by Oro. Do you seriously think that chakra arms from the 3rd tail are slower then the body of Kyuubi cloaked Naruto ?

Naruto had to have been closer considering he had to traverse across the bridges and hit Naruto . Meaning he ended up in front of Kabuto .

He reacted to a sneak attacks that Naruto had set up, and not only did he react to such, but he reacted so fast that he was out of the panel by the time the chakra arms had come up. And 4tailed Naruto chakra arms are faster then the body of Kyuubi cloaked Naruto. Why the hell else would chakra arms be used, when Naruto( according to you) in only his Kyuubi cloaked form was fast enough to
Blitz Oro and already canonically had a body durable enough to shield anything Oro dished. Naruto could have simply blitzed Oro as causally as he wanted in 4k  mode considering she speed difference that should have been apparent if he was truly faster then Oro in Kyuubi chakra mode.

It doesn't matter how many pages Naruto charged up the BiuiiDama, as Oro chose to react when it was close as shit to him.

Naruto not attempting to dodge ? That exact excuse can be made for the feat you quantify as a solid speed blitz. Oro didn't even try to move his face when Naruto straight pounded on it. There was even "? " marks or "!" Marks which emphasize a blitz. I'm willing to believe that Oro didn't blitz Naruto and Naruto didn't blitz Oro rather them both blitzing eachother despite the speed enhancement received between One tailed Naruto and 4 tailed Naruto.

Oro sneak attacked Naruto the same way Naruto sneak attacked Oro( underneath) yet Oro reacted causally and Naruto didn't. Does that mean Oro is faster then Naruto ? Lol

Well then I guess I misinterpreted some of your post. However I still wouldn't agree they are speedsters yet. You haven't sold me yet.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Linear attacks don't mean anything lol. For someone that loves Tsuande so much , I think we both should know that the speed of the attack is what makes it overwhelming in this specific case. Here is the feat actually in which Kisame went completely under killer bee with his big ass sword. It's to note that he moved after bee and reacted before bee got to him: Link removed



If an attack is linear it is easier to predict - especially whenever you're a taijutsu expert, like Kisame is. 

Also, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in that scan. Samehada is its own seperate entity to Kisame - it parried Killer Bee's attack, catching Bee off guard, giving Kisame ample time to retaliate. Kisame didn't go under KB either, he just swung Samehada into the air causing Bee to be thrown into the opposite direction.



> It doesn't matter that the attacks is linear as V1 bee is easily in the 5 subcategory of speed, and also most likely sports a perfect stat in taijustu. According to the DB, it is impossible for Kisame to have reacted to that attacks basically.



I disagree. Even if Bee is highly skilled at taijutsu his manoeuvre in that instance was basic and predictable. He wasn't moving at his top speeds either, even if he is faster than Kisame. 



> Kakashi was not exhausted at the first moment he engaged in taijustu.



That's true, but then again, Hidan has taijutsu skills on par with Kakashi, and Kakashi isn't so much faster than Hidan that he would be able to blitz him 24/7 anyway, so being able to compete against him for a short period of time in CQC is believable.



> Hebi Sasuke used Tobi as a distraction to
> blitz Deidara. Meaning that Deidara had to look away from Tobi to realize that Sasuke was already gone, then had to realize that Sasuke was behind him and dodge. All Sasuke had to to was shunshin and blitz. That feat just isn't even logical when both have the same speed stat. Sasuke is better in CQC( which kind of means evasion) has the Sharingan, and had an advantage.



I don't really know what you're getting at. Hebi Sasuke used Tobi as a distraction to blitz Deidara _because_ their speed was the same (roughly). He had tried to blitz him straight up without a distraction previously and failed, so it only made sense to take advantage of the distraction. 



> The speed stat includes reactions, and Kisame casually reacts to top tiers. Yamato should not hold the same speed stat.



If there is one thing the databook is not clear about, its the differentiation between reaction speed and movement speed. Some characters have better reaction speed than they do movement speed. Minato is a great example - his reactions are much better than his actual movement. His movements are only so quick because of shunshin and Hiraishin, which are ninjutsu, and obviously are not counted in the base speed stat.

Kisame's speed stat could be predominantly based on his reactions rather than his movement, while Yamato's could be based more on movement than reactions. 

Yamato was capable of effortlessly keeping up with both Sai and Naruto in CQC at the same time, who were only a .5 behind him in speed and taijutsu. He even made a bunshin mid-spar that neither of them even detected. That would suggest he had a speed advantage, making him worthy of that 4 imo.



> PTS Lee , Kakuzu, and PTS Kakashi being able to react to V1 bee is just not feasible.



PTS Lee's 4 is most likely justified by his movement speed, rather than his reactions. His reactions in base were not that impressive. Kakuzu and Kakashi probably could react to KB, though, even if it was just by blocking or holding their arms up to their face in a jerk-reaction. That being said, Kakuzu and Pre Kakashi are both .5 behind Kisame in taijutsu, so they would have a harder time reacting than he did.



> Just no. In no way should fodder Tenten be as fast as a Kage. Especially a Kage that holds a perfect taijustu stat and should easily be nimble on his toes( as shown against the Edo Kage) and a Kage that was able to pressure Oro in CQC, and casually evade Kage level Justu. I just don't see it tbh.



Taijutsu = / = Speed. Hiruzen's taijutsu is way better than Tenten's, hence why he can pressure Orochimaru, but his speed isn't. This is perfectly believable because he is old and his speed has deteriorated by consequence. Tenten is nearing her physical prime and was taught by Might Guy. Even if you consider her fodder, the author doesn't. 



> Speed also includes movement speed and reactions in which Hidan is clearly surperior to Neji in , as Neji would never be able to compete with immortals arc Kakashi in CQC.



Eh, it depends on the character imo. Hidan's reaction feats are better, but that's mainly because of his high taijutsu stat that allows him to predict attacks more easily. His movements have yet to surpass Neji throwing 32 strikes in just seconds, but then again, 64 Palms is Nejis fastest attack and he's usually about as nimble as Hidan is otherwise. 



> I see how you left the Shikamaru feat out lol, anyway, why are you arguing against me ! I was trying to help your point actually.



Well, ultimately there are going to irrefutably be inconsistencies. Shikamaru's speed and taijutsu are both much lower than Kakuzu's, so it really doesn't make any sense that he could dodge being ambushed by Kakuzu. Like I said though, its not just the databook that has inconsistencies, the manga has plenty too.

I only wanted to nitpick this part of your argument because it is something I particularly disagree with. Sorry !​​


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## Mithos (Apr 27, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Sasuke with precog. Defeated the Naruto that was blitzing him all over the place, in a taijutsu exchange.
> 
> However, i do agree that Kakashi's best bet is not fighting Tsunade in CqC, but considering how Tsunade always fights, it looks like she will be the one on the offensive most of the time, while Kakashi will be countering with a cold head.



And Sasuke was much better at taijutsu than Naruto. So superior taijutsu defeated an opponent that was faster but that he could react to. 

Superior skill, resilience and insane strength gives Tsunade a bigger edge in CQC than Sharingan does to Kakashi. 

True. But when trying to counter-attack her, he must watch out for a counter of her own. When Kabuto hit her, she countered before he could move away. Kakashi must also watch out for Katsuyu, which makes successfully countering harder. We must also take into account the AoE of Tsunade's strikes may force Kakashi back and make it harder for him to counter her.


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## trance (Apr 27, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And what happens if Kakashi's the one to go on the offensive? She's statistically his superior in Taijutsu proficiency, so it may very well wind up being a replay of _Sharingan_ Sasuke vs. _Base_ Kakashi, except when Tsunade retaliates Kakashi will get blown apart.



Are you talking about their scuffle by the bridge? 

Also, Kakashi's common strategy in battle is use of clones and other deceitful tactics to obtain intel before he goes in with his real body, so she gets a hit in on his clone and that just plays into him formulating a plan.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 27, 2014)

Raiton kage bunshin+Raikiri GG. She has no way around it.

And good luck convincing anyone Tsunade uses Katsuyu.


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## LostSelf (Apr 28, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> And Sasuke was much better at taijutsu than Naruto. So superior taijutsu defeated an opponent that was faster but that he could react to.



This is true, however is very different than what it is here. For Sasuke to go from being easily blitzed to predict Naruto's movements is a very big deal, considering that Kakashi won't have problems doing it with his speed, having sharingan makes him counter her punches further. Diferent than Sasuke and Naruto, Kakashi has what Naruto had over Sasuke, Speed advantage. And has what Sasuke had over Naruto, precognition. 

The gap in taijutsu would probably be too small coming from the man that faced the best taijutsu user in the manga several times.



> Superior skill, resilience and insane strength gives Tsunade a bigger edge in CQC than Sharingan does to Kakashi.
> 
> True. But when trying to counter-attack her, he must watch out for a counter of her own. When Kabuto hit her, she countered before he could move away. Kakashi must also watch out for Katsuyu, which makes successfully countering harder. We must also take into account the AoE of Tsunade's strikes may force Kakashi back and make it harder for him to counter her.



It's because Kabuto didn't have precog. For example, Sasuke was able to easily dodge Ei's punch, who is faster than her, and hit him before he could finish his attack. If Kakashi does the same, Tsunade wouldn't have time to counter attack until she finishes her previous one, as Kakashi would've predicted it and moved to get a clean hit just like Sasuke did to Ei. However, if Kakashi is dumb enough to not  deal a massive amount of damage, he is outright fucked.

He can predict that and counter-attack her from a different angle before she finishes her first stirke (Sasuke vs Ei example again), and if he uses his attack as a cutting one, she might not be able to block it considering it would go through her body.

I agree about Katsuyu, but Tsunade cannot just attack while Katsuyu spits acid at Kakashi, because she can be hit by the acid as well. But my point is Kakashi not keeping in prolonged Taijutsu engages with her, just the necessary to counter and fall back. If he wins (i go with 50/50), it would be tricking her with a Raiton clone and a finishing blow or _raiden chain_.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> My point is Kakashi being above Katsuyu, and that shinobis similar to his level have countered/defeated equal or stronger beings than Katsuyu (Bijuu hunters such as Hidan) and that just because 'it is the summon of a kage' doesn't mean that it needs to give Kakashi (or any other shinobi) enough troubles. Not that Kakashi will kill Katsuyu, he can counter it, trick it, dodge it, etc.



What I'm saying is that you can't treat Katsuyu as if it's mutually exclusive from the rest of Tsunade's arsenal/Tsunade herself (it isn't) and then try to rely on A>B>C logic disguised as portrayal arguments after the fact as if this is DBZ. No, that summon can be every bit a game changer as Tsunade's regeneration in the right scenario, and in this case it is in the right one because Kakashi has no way to deal with it and he can't even dream about being able to outlast it with Tsunade present.



> A 'Summon of a Kage' doesn't always needs to be a game changer.



Let's not get what I said twisted. I'm not saying that it _always needs to be_ a game changer, I'm disagreeing with the notion that it never can be one simply because "it's just a summon lol and Kakashi is just so strong".

But...Deva is a puppet that Nagato can summon wherever he wants through Animal; he's basically just a summon of Nagato's that simply happens to look like a person.  And as stated previously, Kakashi's abilities are not analogous to Deva's, nor those of Nagato himself, he doesn't work on the scale necessary to just send a boss sized animal flying off into the distance.



> About him being portrayed equal to Itachi o above Sasuke, he already kept pace with Itachi, albeit for little time, and that was way before he got a tremendous upgrade.



That was a _Shōten_ aka 30% aka tremendously weaker Itachi, with Kakashi admitting he couldn't have taken him alone and getting Naruto involved.

Since then Kakashi has mastered a single Mangekyō technique, whereas Itachi still had three he didn't use there.



> I counted his Kamui here because i am comparing him to an unrestricted version of Itachi or Hebi Sasuke, wich i think we don't need to go into details about current Kakashi with Mangekyo being his superior.



I think we do, especially currently with Kakashi's abuse of the technique having limited his accurate reach with it.



Stαrkiller said:


> Are you talking about their scuffle by the bridge?



Yes.



> Also, Kakashi's common strategy in battle is use of clones and other deceitful tactics to obtain intel before he goes in with his real body, so she gets a hit in on his clone and that just plays into him formulating a plan.



Tsunade would be aware of that habit of his, though; precautionary use of _Ranshinshō_ prevents her from being electrocuted just in case she faces a _Raiton Kage Bunshin_, while she can still play up the distraction on her part to lure the true Kakashi out (and if she happens to be facing the real one instead of a clone to begin with there's no harm done).

What "other deceitful tactics" do you speak of besides clones? And what plan is he supposed to be formulating here exactly? He can't sustain a sufficient ranged game to actually threaten Tsunade nor tire her out. If you really want to break away from the Taijutsu aspect of this fight alone then what answer does Kakashi have to Katsuyu melting across the field? He wouldn't be able to close in on Tsunade without getting _Shosen'd_ into a comma when Tsunade siphons her Chakra out to the slug, and it's her full knowledge to his none to begin with.


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## trance (Apr 28, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes.



That's hardly a fair comparison. Sasuke had just got done fighting Danzo and his vision was slipping away while Kakashi was fresh. 



> Tsunade would be aware of that habit of his, though; precautionary use of _Ranshinshō_ prevents her from being electrocuted just in case she faces a _Raiton Kage Bunshin_, while she can still play up the distraction on her part to lure the true Kakashi out (and if she happens to be facing the real one instead of a clone to begin with there's no harm done).



How would that help against an actual surge of electricity?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> That's hardly a fair comparison. Sasuke had just got done fighting Danzo and his vision was slipping away while Kakashi was fresh.



Sasuke attacked and in the process of doing so put himself in a vulnerable position. The instant that happened the relevance of precognition went out of the window because he was physically not in a position to do anything irregardless of whether or not he'd seen his slip, which is my entire point, so that is a completely fair comparison.



> How would that help against an actual surge of electricity?



The clone only electrocutes in the moment of its destruction; _Ranshinshō_ will not destroy it.


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## Mithos (Apr 29, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> This is true, however is very different than what it is here. For Sasuke to go from being easily blitzed to predict Naruto's movements is a very big deal, considering that Kakashi won't have problems doing it with his speed, having sharingan makes him counter her punches further. Diferent than Sasuke and Naruto, Kakashi has what Naruto had over Sasuke, Speed advantage. And has what Sasuke had over Naruto, precognition.
> 
> The gap in taijutsu would probably be too small coming from the man that faced the best taijutsu user in the manga several times.



But Kakashi doesn't have what Naruto had over Sasuke. Naruto had a very decisive speed advantage, to the point where Sasuke was getting thrashed without the 3-tomoe Sharingan. Kakashi does not have a speed advantage that will cause Tsunade problems - at least not major ones anyway. 

He does not counter her punches harder. He cannot block her attacks, nor can he even be grazed by them. Parrying would also be too dangerous too. That takes away a lot of his ability to defend and counter-attack. Then we also have to add in AoE damage to the surroundings. They're going to force Kakashi away from her, or into disadvantageous positions. There's a lot more involved than a fairly inconsequential speed advantage and Sharingan pre-cognition. 



> It's because Kabuto didn't have precog. For example, Sasuke was able to easily dodge Ei's punch, who is faster than her, and hit him before he could finish his attack. If Kakashi does the same, Tsunade wouldn't have time to counter attack until she finishes her previous one, as Kakashi would've predicted it and moved to get a clean hit just like Sasuke did to Ei. However, if Kakashi is dumb enough to not  deal a massive amount of damage, he is outright fucked.



Sharingan would not have prevented Kabuto from being hit in that instance. Tsunade repositioned herself in mid-air so that when she landed she threw herself into Kabuto as his hit landed against her. He was unable to move away because of his momentum, not because he couldn't react or anticipate the attack. 

Ei's attacks are more linear and slower than Tsunade's. His movement speed is great, but he usually stops before the opponent and throws a punch or a downward chop. Tsunade has shown better taijutsu. Kakashi was not able to predict and easier counter Hidan, nor was he able to do it to Kakuzu either. Both opponents are less skilled than Tsunade in CQC. Even if Kakashi did manage to do so, unless he hits her head she's going to survive and he's going to get smashed or grabbed. She may not have Byakugou, but Souzou Saisei - as far as I understand it - has not been restricted. With her taijutsu prowess and specialization in evasion, evading enough to avoid having her head blow off shouldn't be that difficult.  




> He can predict that and counter-attack her from a different angle before she finishes her first stirke (Sasuke vs Ei example again), and if he uses his attack as a cutting one, she might not be able to block it considering it would go through her body.



As mentioned above, anything that does not take off her head is not going to kill her because of Souzou Saisei. If for some reason she gets sliced in half - which I don't see happening seeing as she fought 5 Susano'o clones, that also have Sharingan (I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), without having her head sliced off or being sliced in half - Katsuyu can patch her back together with the help of her regeneration. Kakashi lacks the firepower to stop Katsuyu from melding over Tsunade and putting her back together. 



> I agree about Katsuyu, but Tsunade cannot just attack while Katsuyu spits acid at Kakashi, because she can be hit by the acid as well. But my point is Kakashi not keeping in prolonged Taijutsu engages with her, just the necessary to counter and fall back. If he wins (i go with 50/50), it would be tricking her with a Raiton clone and a finishing blow or _raiden chain_



I don't mean that she attacks as Katsuyu spits the acid. I mean Katsuyu spits the acid and Kakashi is forced to jump/leap out of the way, and while he's airborn Tsunade charges/shunshins in to attack. It would put a lot of pressure on Kakashi to defend himself against both.

This match is a close one, but if Tsunade has Souzou Saisei and Katsuyu I lean towards her.


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## LostSelf (Apr 29, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> But Kakashi doesn't have what Naruto had over Sasuke. Naruto had a very decisive speed advantage, to the point where Sasuke was getting thrashed without the 3-tomoe Sharingan. Kakashi does not have a speed advantage that will cause Tsunade problems - at least not major ones anyway.



Ei had a decisive speed advantage over Sasuke, and he managed to do it. If Sasuke, who is slower than Ei, managed to do that, i think Kakashi, who is faster than her, can do it without less troubles, though.



> He does not counter her punches harder. He cannot block her attacks, nor can he even be grazed by them. Parrying would also be too dangerous too. That takes away a lot of his ability to defend and counter-attack. Then we also have to add in AoE damage to the surroundings. They're going to force Kakashi away from her, or into disadvantageous positions. There's a lot more involved than a fairly inconsequential speed advantage and Sharingan pre-cognition.



I am not saying he will block her or anything. I said something like happened to Ei would happen here. Tsunade attacks, Kakashi predicts the attack before, Kakashi comes from a different angle before Tsunade finishes throwing her punch and stabs her/cuts her. This is hardly avoidable.

This example worked with Ei, and from a slower opponent. It would easily work with Tsunade here.



> Sharingan would not have prevented Kabuto from being hit in that instance. Tsunade repositioned herself in mid-air so that when she landed she threw herself into Kabuto as his hit landed against her. He was unable to move away because of his momentum, not because he couldn't react or anticipate the attack.



Not in that stance because Kabuto was on the offensive, wich is different from what i am saying.



> Ei's attacks are more linear and slower than Tsunade's. His movement speed is great, but he usually stops before the opponent and throws a punch or a downward chop. Tsunade has shown better taijutsu. Kakashi was not able to predict and easier counter Hidan, nor was he able to do it to Kakuzu either. Both opponents are less skilled than Tsunade in CQC. Even if Kakashi did manage to do so, unless he hits her head she's going to survive and he's going to get smashed or grabbed. She may not have Byakugou, but Souzou Saisei - as far as I understand it - has not been restricted. With her taijutsu prowess and specialization in evasion, evading enough to avoid having her head blow off shouldn't be that difficult.



Nothing indicates his attacks are slower than Tsunade (i don't know where this have been proven), thus doesn't matter much because he can react to a punch from her and predict it. Not engaging into a prolonged fight here. Kakashi was not in shape when he was facing Hidan, plus, he had a weapon, and Kakashi kept up and dodged Kakuzu and Hidan's combined efforts, all that in a disadvantage.

I agree with him going dying if he stabs her chest, however, if he knows about her super strenght he would not risk that too much, and if he stabs her head, she won't be able to concentrate to use SS, and would die. Nothing says she specializes in evasion, on top of that, nothing says she is better than Kakashi in evasion, nor she has shown to be. But of course, she can defend her head, but my point about this was another.



> As mentioned above, anything that does not take off her head is not going to kill her because of Souzou Saisei.



Souzou Saisei needs handseals for that. If she dies by a headshot, she won't be able to do it.



> If for some reason she gets sliced in half - which I don't see happening seeing as she fought 5 Susano'o clones, that also have Sharingan (I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), without having her head sliced off or being sliced in half



The Susano'o clones were toying with them, this became clear when they had her on her knees and didn't kill her, something they would've done. Tsunade didn't evade 5 Susano'o clones, she abused Byakugo and was hit at the cost of hitting them. Those five Susano'o clones were likely not going for the kill, shown by them, Madara was never serious.



> - Katsuyu can patch her back together with the help of her regeneration. Kakashi lacks the firepower to stop Katsuyu from melding over Tsunade and putting her back together.



If Katsuyu is there already, yes. But after that, we don't know how much chakra Tsunade would have in order to continue fighting also, the time it will take for her to do it is not gonna be instantaneous, and we don't know if Katsuyu, with her own chakra, can manage that, at least, not fast enough. 



> I don't mean that she attacks as Katsuyu spits the acid. I mean Katsuyu spits the acid and Kakashi is forced to jump/leap out of the way, and while he's airborn Tsunade charges/shunshins in to attack. It would put a lot of pressure on Kakashi to defend himself against both.



Kakashi already countered something like this  [1], [2].



> t if Tsunade has Souzou Saisei and Katsuyu I lean towards her.



Nothing wrong with that, though.


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## LostSelf (Apr 29, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> What I'm saying is that you can't treat Katsuyu as if it's mutually exclusive from the rest of Tsunade's arsenal/Tsunade herself (it isn't) and then try to rely on A>B>C logic disguised as portrayal arguments after the fact as if this is DBZ. No, that summon can be every bit a game changer as Tsunade's regeneration in the right scenario, and in this case it is in the right one because Kakashi has no way to deal with it and he can't even dream about being able to outlast it with Tsunade present.



I am talking about how the summons are treated by Kishi when it comes to fighting superior opponents, not that Kakashi is gonna kill it or outlast it.

Look what happened to Manda and Tsunade while rusty, it was one shotted. Tsunade is surely superior to Manda, Gamabunta and Katsuyu even if she doesn't have the fire power to kill it.

Even rusty/weakened/divided versions of people in the level of Kakashi reacted accordingly and  countered the summons. Deva dodged all the attacks of the frogs, weak Sauce controlled Manda and rusty Tsunade one shotted it. Not to mention how they (people in the level of Kakashi and above) have defeated Bijuus. Again, talking about portrayal, feat-wise, Katsuyu lacks the reaction/speed to compete with Kakashi and keep pressuring him all the fight. So i won't just aid myself with potrayal here, even though it wasn't my goal entering a feats debate.

Just that if Kishi puts them in a fight (Kakashi vs Katsuyu), and Kakashi needs to win story-wise, i don't see how he can lose.

Kakashi might not kill Katsuyu, but i don't see how the Summon's offense will be troublesome to him, following portrayal. Tsunade being aided by the summon is different, though.



> Let's not get what I said twisted. I'm not saying that it _always needs to be_ a game changer, I'm disagreeing with the notion that it never can be one simply because "it's just a summon lol and Kakashi is just so strong".



I never said it. If Gated Gai has Katsuyu, i think it would be the game changer if he fought healthy Kakashi without the red gate. However, if Konohamaru has it, he is still in no way winning against Kakashi.



> But...Deva is a puppet that Nagato can summon wherever he wants through Animal; he's basically just a summon of Nagato's that simply happens to look like a person.  And as stated previously, Kakashi's abilities are not analogous to Deva's, nor those of Nagato himself, he doesn't work on the scale necessary to just send a boss sized animal flying off into the distance.



Actually, Deva Path wouldn't kill Katsuyu with that. Even though my point is different. I am glad you have Nagato so high in your standards .



> That was a _Shōten_ aka 30% aka tremendously weaker Itachi, with Kakashi admitting he couldn't have taken him alone and getting Naruto involved.



The Shoten version of Itachi had the same physical skills as his original version, it was just an Itachi with limited chakra. But yeah, i am not putting that Kakashi in the level of Itachi. Just the current one.



> Since then Kakashi has mastered a single Mangekyō technique, whereas Itachi still had three he didn't use there.



I agree with this.



> I think we do, especially currently with Kakashi's abuse of the technique having limited his accurate reach with it.



Mmm yeah, i think this should be specified, just like it should need to be specified if Gai would use the red Gate (bare me, i can't stop talking about him), because some posters probably don't even take into account that Kakashi doesn't have a Sharingan anymore, in said case, i go with Tsunade's side.


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## Super Chief (Apr 29, 2014)

Tsunade > Kakashi, with or without Sharingan.

This "omg Taunade is to slow!! 1!! she die !!" shit needs to fucking die. She's the fucking Hokage. A shinobi of 50 or so years. She'll keep up just fine, and she'll give at least as she gets. She'll definitely outlast Kakashi, who more or less will have to risk direct combat due to his lack of long range jutsu.


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