# Sasuke vs Gaara and Lee



## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

This VotE Sasuke and SRA Gaara and Lee.

Location: Kimimaro vs Lee and Gaara

Knowledge: Manga

State of Mind: IC

Distance: 10 meters

Scenario goes as it went in manga with Kimi vs Lee and Gaara. Lee fights Sasuke alone first and then Gaara joins.

Gaara arrives in ten minutes and if Lee is defeated before that he will fight on his own.

Lee has the small bottle of sake he had against Kimimaro.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 30, 2015)

Gaara is more than enough.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

No he isn't.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 30, 2015)

Gaara wins.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

How is Gaara avoiding Sasuke's Chidori rush on his ass? He is far slower and Sasuke is faster than his sand.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 30, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> How is Gaara avoiding Sasuke's Chidori rush on his ass? He is far slower and Sasuke is faster than his sand.



Chidori at that time had a charge time. 
Gaara fucks him up.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

This is not CE Sasuke who already had base Gaara schooled. 

admits his loss solemnly and seriously.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee was willing to open the gates so GG if he does. If he gets drunk it's GG. In base he was faster than Sasuke and wouldn't have a problem whippin him in CQC. If Gaara grinds GG right then and there.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

Injured Lee is unable to open the gates, mate. 

and 





IchLiebe said:


> If he gets drunk it's GG. In base he was faster than Sasuke and wouldn't have a problem whippin him in CQC.


Drunk Lee beating Sasuke? 

Sasuke was reacting to KN1 Naruto's Chakra Arms without even using CS. Lee gets murked.



> If Gaara grinds GG right then and there.



He won't have time to grind any. Especially when Sasuke has knowledge on him.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 30, 2015)

Lee likely dies before Gaara arrives. Surgery made him weaker and slower. So Sasuke with the speed of healthy Lee, Sharingan and Cursed Seal is plainly superior. His VotE mindset was pretty bloodlusted so I don't see him allowing Lee to take his "medicine".  

Sasuke with some chakra wasted vs Gaara is close. But Sasuke knows enough to not waste time with normal moves so Chidori it is. Gaara also knows a lot but he didn't show a counter for CS-empowered Chidori from a faster Sauce. Except for flying maybe. 

Overall going with Sasuke. He might lose with different mindset or without knowledge. Or if Shukaku is unleashed.


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## BrokenChord (Jan 30, 2015)

Isn't it a little silly to post a fight that you already have such strong opinions on the result of...?

At any rate...

VoTE Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean three-tomoe, given that he awakened that mid-fight. You ought to be more specific. With that, he can probably outdo Lee... Keyword being probably. They're about equal in terms of speed, but the three-tomoe's precog gives him a big edge, though not as big as an edge as it gave him against K1 Naruto simply due to drunk Lee screwing the rules regarding the subtle shifts in stance and such that Sasuke was catching to prediction-pwn Naruto.

And, well... Sasuke already had pre-transformation Gaara basically beat once. With him willing to use the Curse Seal and having the ability to go Stage 2 this time, I could see him putting a Chidori through ShuGaara's heart, though it'd be a close battle.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 30, 2015)

Sasuke might defeat Gaara with huge difficulty. 

I do not see Sasuke stronger than Kimimaro as K0 Naruto couldn't handle him even without Kimi using CS1. And it took CS2 Kimi to deal with all of Gaara's stuff.

But adding Lee is simply too much.

He loses.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

BrokenChord said:


> Isn't it a little silly to post a fight that you already have such strong opinions on the result of...?


Of course not.



> VoTE Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean three-tomoe, given that he awakened that mid-fight.


You're new so you couldn't have knows, but when people refer to "VotE Sasuke" they mean him at his strongest in part 1. At least in here


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## RedChidori (Jan 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Lee likely dies before Gaara arrives. Surgery made him weaker and slower. So Sasuke with the speed of healthy Lee, Sharingan and Cursed Seal is plainly superior. His VotE mindset was pretty bloodlusted so I don't see him allowing Lee to take his "medicine".
> 
> Sasuke with some chakra wasted vs Gaara is close. But Sasuke knows enough to not waste time with normal moves so Chidori it is. Gaara also knows a lot but he didn't show a counter for CS-empowered Chidori from a faster Sauce. Except for flying maybe.
> 
> Overall going with Sasuke. He might lose with different mindset or without knowledge. Or if Shukaku is unleashed.



This .


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 30, 2015)

Chidori isn't really a problem against a flying opponent.  
Lee can open up the first gate in his drunken state. Who has better reactions and speed than Sasuke. 

Gaara can definitely grind and he never knew at that point he can grind up sand.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 30, 2015)

Not to mention, Chidori is linear and Gaara is capable enough to escape from that.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 30, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Injured Lee is unable to open the gates,


mate. 

Then how did he open the first gate against Kimmi? Because he can still open his gates. 



> Drunk Lee beating Sasuke?
> 
> Sasuke was reacting to KN1 Naruto's Chakra Arms without even using CS. Lee gets murked.



His chakra arms were smacking Sasuke around. Kimmi and Lee are both faster.



> He won't have time to grind any. Especially when Sasuke has knowledge on him.



It took him, I think, 7-8 pages to grind his tidal wave. Sasuke gets fucked up.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Chidori isn't really a problem against a flying opponent.


Gaara's flying isn't nearly as good as it is in part 2. And is still a lot slower than Sasuke is. 

admits his loss solemnly and seriously.

Sasuke in base blitzed Naruto from quite a distance. Gaara is not escaping him.

Also Gaara didn't go airborne against Kimimaro until Sawarabi no Mai came in play. So why would he do it against Sasuke so soon?


> Lee can open up the first gate in his drunken state. Who has better reactions and speed than Sasuke.


Yeah, no. 


> Gaara can definitely grind and he never knew at that point he can grind up sand.


No one said that Gaara *can't* grind sand, it's just he won't any time to.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Then how did he open the first gate against Kimmi? Because he can still open his gates.



I'm obviously talking about the Gates that start putting real pressure on his body, gates that would actually make a difference. 



> His chakra arms were smacking Sasuke around. Kimmi and Lee are both faster.


KN1 Naruto is way faster than both Lee and Kimimaro and Sasuke managed to react to his Chakra Arms and even avoid the first attack without even using CS (which would boost both his stats and Sharingan).




> It took him, I think, 7-8 pages to grind his tidal wave. Sasuke gets fucked up.



Sasuke knows that he can dominate Gaara easily in CQC. Unlike Kimimaro he won't be dancing 20 meters away allowing Gaara to grind enough sand. Sasuke closes the distance immediately.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 30, 2015)

SRA Lee is physically slower than Base VotE Sasuke. One Gate, so? 3-tomoe and Cursed Seal > that 1 Gate. 

Drunk Lee might give Sasuke some trouble due to his random style messing with Sharingan somewhat. But he is still outmatched. And won't likely to get a chance to get drunk. Kimi while fanatically loyal to Orochimaru wasn't semi-crazy and bloodlusted like Sauce. He'd this to Lee the moment he asks him to wait.

Naruto and Sasuke at VotE were both individually superior to Konoha Rookies and Sand Siblings(outside Shukaku Biju Mode). I thought that Kishi made it obvious.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 30, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> I'm obviously talking about the Gates that start putting real pressure on his body, gates that would actually make a difference.



And he can still open them. The gates do damage regardless of your physical state. Healthy or not. Gai had broken bones and had already used the 7th gate several times yet still opened the 8th gate. 



> KN1 Naruto is way faster than both Lee and Kimimaro and Sasuke managed to react to his Chakra Arms and even avoid the first attack without even using CS (which would boost both his stats and Sharingan).



Sasuke never reacted to the chakra arms, they smacked him around. Even in CS1 he couldn't react to them.



> Sasuke knows that he can dominate Gaara easily in CQC. Unlike Kimimaro he won't be dancing 20 meters away allowing Gaara to grind enough sand. Sasuke closes the distance immediately.



Good luck getting there. Kimmi tried to too.



Alex Payne said:


> SRA Lee is physically slower than Base VotE Sasuke. One Gate, so? 3-tomoe and Cursed Seal > that 1 Gate.



No he's not. He was never even as fast as Lee. Not to mention he's way more skilled in taijutsu. Any gates is overkill.



> Drunk Lee might give Sasuke some trouble due to his random style messing with Sharingan somewhat. But he is still outmatched. And won't likely to get a chance to get drunk. Kimi while fanatically loyal to Orochimaru wasn't semi-crazy and bloodlusted like Sauce. He'd this to Lee the moment he asks him to wait.



Comparing Lee to base Naruto LOLOLOL.



> Naruto and Sasuke at VotE were both individually superior to Konoha Rookies and Sand Siblings(outside Shukaku Biju Mode). I thought that Kishi made it obvious.



He never did. Gaara does one sand drizzle, GG, one tidal wave, GG, One anything GG. Kimmi had to muscle through the sand to get to Gaara, Sasuke can't.


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## SSMG (Jan 30, 2015)

Drunk lee probably is enough. Sasuke was only as fast as base Lee with weights on. A drunk Lee with weights off using first gate should be enough to beat him. If for whatever reason he isn't enough once gaara gets there its over he can solo. So him and Lee stomp.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> And he can still open them. The gates do damage regardless of your physical state. Healthy or not. Gai had broken bones and had already used the 7th gate several times yet still opened the 8th gate.


this

Lee was hesitant to even use the first gate. His body couldn't take strain.

And you really shouldn't compare Prime Guy to part 1 Lee... 




> Sasuke never reacted to the chakra arms, they smacked him around. Even in CS1 he couldn't react to them.



Even in CS1 he couldn't react to them.

Yes he did. And in the page you posted Sasuke had just got his shit thrown into a stone wall. 



> Good luck getting there. Kimmi tried to too.


He tried too late. And Sasuke has already previously managed to work his way around Gaara's sand and given him an ass whooping. He can do it again.




> No he's not. He was never even as fast as Lee. Not to mention he's way more skilled in taijutsu. Any gates is overkill.


CE Sasuke reached healthy weightless Lee's level of speed and VotE Sasuke's base stats are way superior to CE Sasuke's. Plus he has CS to boot.

And yet again, Lee can't use all of the gates here.




> Comparing Lee to base Naruto LOLOLOL.


VotE Base Naruto > Injured SRA base Lee.

Also pretty rich coming from a guy comparing Guy to part 1 Lee.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 30, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Even in CS1 he couldn't react to them.
> 
> Lee was hesitant to even use the first gate. His body couldn't take strain.
> 
> And you really shouldn't compare Prime Guy to part 1 Lee...



He said he wanted to avoid that. You think he would die and not open them? No.




> Even in CS1 he couldn't react to them.
> 
> Yes he did. And in the page you posted Sasuke had just got his shit thrown into a stone wall.



What? LOLOL. That's Naruto's arm, the next page was the chakra arm and it sent Sasuke flying. And guess what sent Sasuke into that stone wall, he didn't think it would...but it did. Not to mention that my previous post had the scan where Sasuke had already recovered from the stone wall incident.



> He tried too late. And Sasuke has already previously managed to work his way around Gaara's sand and given him an ass whooping. He can do it again.



SRA Gaara>>>Chunnin exam Garra. 



> CE Sasuke reached healthy weightless Lee's level of speed and VotE Sasuke's base stats are way superior to CE Sasuke's. Plus he has CS to boot.



Where did he get faster at? You can't just say it.



> And yet again, Lee can't use all of the gates here.



He can, he just wanted to avoid it.



> VotE Base Naruto > Injured SRA base Lee.



...No.



> Also pretty rich coming from a guy comparing Guy to part 1 Lee.



Where did I compare them? When I was stating that an injured body doesn't stop someone from opening the gates? Then that's okay. I'm not saying Lee is as strong as Gai nor implying it.


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## RBL (Jan 30, 2015)

either gaara or lee can solo.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> He said he wanted to avoid that. You think he would die and not open them? No.


Holy shit the denial is on the next level. His still healing leg and arm would exploded had he opened the gates from 3-5.  





> What? LOLOL. That's Naruto's arm, the next page was the chakra arm and it sent Sasuke flying. And guess what sent Sasuke into that stone wall, he didn't think it would...but it did. Not to mention that my previous post had the scan where Sasuke had already recovered from the stone wall incident.


Sorry, I meant to say he dodged Naruto's arm and reacted to the Chakra Arms.

Naruto had already sent his arm at Sasuke before Sasuke had gotten and up and focused his attention at Naruto.




> SRA Gaara>>>Chunnin exam Garra.


VotE Sasuke >>>>> CE Sasuke 




> Where did he get faster at? You can't just say it.


Sitting in that CS barrel greatly boosted Sasuke's stats. Both Naruto and Sasuke commented on that.




> He can, he just wanted to avoid it.


He avoids it because he has to. If he puts pressure on his broken arm and leg his muscles and bones would immediately rip. Stop trying to act as if Lee wasn't still recovering and out of shape.




> ...No.


Uhm yes. Your downplays is ridiculous.




> Where did I compare them? When I was stating that an injured body doesn't stop someone from opening the gates? Then that's okay. I'm not saying Lee is as strong as Gai nor implying it.



Guy's endurance, durability and stamina are far above Lee's.

to quote you: LOLOLOL


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## IchLiebe (Jan 30, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Holy shit the denial is on the next level. His still healing leg and arm would exploded had he opened the gates from 3-5.



I don't think you know what you're saying. 



> Sorry, I meant to say he dodged Naruto's arm and reacted to the Chakra Arms.
> 
> Naruto had already sent his arm at Sasuke before Sasuke had gotten and up and focused his attention at Naruto.



React to the chakra arms as in couldn't dodge one and got his ass whipped by them then yes. Sasuke was up and was looking right at Naruto look at the scan.



> VotE Sasuke >>>>> CE Sasuke



Maybe overall but not in speed.



> Sitting in that CS barrel greatly boosted Sasuke's stats. Both Naruto and Sasuke commented on that.



Scan?



> He avoids it because he has to. If he puts pressure on his broken arm and leg his muscles and bones would immediately rip. Stop trying to act as if Lee wasn't still recovering and out of shape.



The 5th gate already does exactly that and Lee fought through it once. He also stood up after his muscles were torn, his leg and arm was crushed, and unconscious. Lee is way tougher than you give him credit for.




> Uhm yes. Your downplays is ridiculous.



Your wank is ridiculous.



> Guy's endurance, durability and stamina are far above Lee's.



I agree. Doesn't do shit to what I said though.



> to quote you: LOLOLOL



I'd quote you but I don't like posting shit so...


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 30, 2015)

Sasuke at least beats Lee before Gaara arrives.

 It's clear that the boost he received from consuming the pill gave him a noticeable boost, one that allowed him to grab Naruto and punch him in the gut as well as being able to outclass him in taijutsu and blitz Naruto w/o his Sharingan even when it was shown that Naruto could match Sharingan Sasuke in Taijutsu and speed prior to Sasuke's boost.

 I see VoTE Sasuke as superior to Lee before awakening 2-Tomoe. With 3 Tomoe and the fact that Lee's Taijutsu was stated to be rusty, Sasuke just trashes Lee. There's no way Lee can even match KN0 Naruto considering a weaker KN0 Naruto could match Neji in CQC and we know Neji outclassed Lee prior to Gates every single time they fought.

 However, once Gaara arrives, he probably solos. Sasuke doesn't have Kimimaro's durability and strength, not even close along with the fact that Kimimaro is flat out faster regardless of CS2 giving Kimimaro a decrease in speed. Topped off with the fact that Gaara can just Sand Tsunami Sasuke and Sasuke has nothing that get through it. Location doesn't help, but distance might, but even Kimimaro couldn't exactly get close, so Gaara's more likely to win.

 As for 3 Tomoe Sasuke, he could react to KN1 Naruto's arm, but he could never avoid the chakra arms at which even 3 Tomoe CS Sasuke was flat out thrown around like a rag doll. Sasuke only dodged the chakra arms in anime filler, not in the manga.

 Edit: But I do agree with OP, VoTE Sasuke >> CE Sasuke. Consuming that pill greatly boosted Sasuke's stats and allowed him to blitz Naruto in Base. Not enough to trash him easily like CS Sasuke didbut enough to have a clear edge.


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## Ghost (Jan 31, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> I don't think you know what you're saying.


You must be pretty damn dull then. 



> React to the chakra arms as in couldn't dodge one and got his ass whipped by them then yes. Sasuke was up and was looking right at Naruto look at the scan.


Yeah he couldn't dodge an attack that is far faster than anything either Lee, Gaara or Kimimaro can pull. At least he reacted to it and wasn't even in his strongest when he did. Sorry to say, but people who had trouble against Lee's base speed (Kimimaro and Gaara) are not reacting to KN1 Naruto.



> Maybe overall but not in speed.


Pre-VotE Sasuke wasn't able to speed blitz Naruto. 




> Scan?


Link removed

Sasuke's base stats have increased greatly.



> The 5th gate already does exactly that and Lee fought through it once.


Lee was 100% healthy when he opened the Gates. The muscles and bones in his arm and leg are still broken. He won't be able to use the upper gates if he was hesitant to use the first one.

Holy fuck you're terrible. Why didn't Lee use the fifth Gate against Kimimaro if would've been such cake walk for him?

Gates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty sake



> He also stood up after his muscles were torn, his leg and arm was crushed, and unconscious. Lee is way tougher than you give him credit for.


Exactly, he was unconscious. The fight ended on his part right there when Gaara crushed his limbs. 





> Your wank is ridiculous.


I actually have something to back up my statements with you and as usual you have jack shit.




> I agree. Doesn't do shit to what I said though.


Yes it does. Guy can push his body far more than Lee can. That's what having more stamina and endurance means.



> I'd quote you but I don't like posting shit so...


No, you love posting shit apparently.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 31, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Yeah he couldn't dodge an attack that is far faster than anything either Lee, Gaara or Kimimaro can pull. At least he reacted to it and wasn't even in his strongest when he did. Sorry to say, but people who had trouble against Lee's base speed (Kimimaro and Gaara) are not reacting to KN1 Naruto.



Yeah they are. Kimmi reacted to Lee's 1st gate without any problems. And Lee in base is faster than Sasuke. Lee in 1st gate is even faster.



> Pre-VotE Sasuke wasn't able to speed blitz Naruto.



He never tried to.



> Link removed
> 
> Sasuke's base stats have increased greatly.



Do you blatantly ignore the what proves you wrong or did you legitimately miss the page right before that? Don't try to bullshit me, it won't work. The page right before that scan Sasuke was in CS1 state, as in not base.  



> Lee was 100% healthy when he opened the Gates. The muscles and bones in his arm and leg are still broken. He won't be able to use the upper gates if he was hesitant to use the first one.



The surgery fixed them so they are not still broken. He is able to, he just wants to avoid it. And it's smart to not want to do something that harms you, but if it's you getting hurt vs you dieing then you choose opening the gates.



> Holy fuck you're terrible. Why didn't Lee use the fifth Gate against Kimimaro if would've been such cake walk for him?



Because as soon as he opened the first gate and Kimmi blocked the lotus Gaara showed up an took over.



> Gates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty sake



I agree. You do know Lee didn't drink sake on purpose, he thought he was taking his medicine and ended up drunk.



> Exactly, he was unconscious. The fight ended on his part right there when Gaara crushed his limbs.



His shows his toughness. To say he can't open the gates in the kimmi fight is stupid.




> I actually have something to back up my statements with you and as usual you have jack shit.



Bullshit where you cherry pick scans isn't proof. Posting the page and trying to pass it off as base when the page right before it is CS1 discredits you. You can't even have an honest debate because I don't believe for one second that you missed that scan. 



> Yes it does. Guy can push his body far more than Lee can. That's what having more stamina and endurance means.



When has Gai has muscles torn, bones crushed, unconscious and still his body getting up and almost fighting.


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Gaara alone solos.
Once he unleashes shukaku, then sasuke gets raped


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## Ghost (Jan 31, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Yeah they are. Kimmi reacted to Lee's 1st gate without any problems. And Lee in base is faster than Sasuke. Lee in 1st gate is even faster.


Kimi reacted just fine but he was being pressured by Lee's speed.




> He never tried to.


This is what you've got? I guess Minato can't blitz Iruka because he has never tried to. 

Naruto had no trouble with base Sasuke during their rooftop fight but got his shit kicked at VotE by base Sasuke.




> Do you blatantly ignore the what proves you wrong or did you legitimately miss the page right before that? Don't try to bullshit me, it won't work. The page right before that scan Sasuke was in CS1 state, as in not base.


 
Sasuke was not in CS there. Open your fucking eyes. Only one of his eyes was yellow and the CS markings barely reached his face. Those were the after effects of the barrel. 

This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke. 

Read the page that I posted. Sasuke himself pretty much says: "If I'm this powerful now, I wonder how strong I will be if I release the seal."

The markings disappear and Sasuke says that the power is synchronizing within his body. Then Sasuke continues whooping Naruto's ass just in base. 



> The surgery fixed them so they are not still broken. He is able to, he just wants to avoid it. And it's smart to not want to do something that harms you, but if it's you getting hurt vs you dieing then you choose opening the gates.


Lee's body was still in healing process meaning his limbs were still broken. Gaara says that Lee is slower and his moves are duller compared to their fight at CE.




> Because as soon as he opened the first gate and Kimmi blocked the lotus Gaara showed up an took over.



He fought Kimi for a while and had no idea Gaara was coming and was pretty much about to die. He had nothing to lose. No reason for him not to open the gates if he was capable of it.




> I agree. You do know Lee didn't drink sake on purpose, he thought he was taking his medicine and ended up drunk.


Of course, he had more than enough time to open the Gates after he got sober and before Gaara came to the rescue. 




> His shows his toughness. To say he can't open the gates in the kimmi fight is stupid.


He can open them, but it wouldn't help at all. His still healing body would just be torn again and he would have to quit being a shinobi.





> Bullshit where you cherry pick scans isn't proof. Posting the page and trying to pass it off as base when the page right before it is CS1 discredits you. You can't even have an honest debate because I don't believe for one second that you missed that scan.



Try to actually read the pages people post. 


> When has Gai has muscles torn, bones crushed, unconscious and still his body getting up and almost fighting.



What? Lee was nowhere near "almost fighting" after getting crushed by Gaara. Only his will was holding him up. Doesn't accomplish anything against Sasuke.

Also there is no way to compare KN1 Naruto's and healthy fifth Gate Lee's speed.

What we know it that Neji was not even shocked by Lee's weightless speed, but had trouble with CE KN0 Naruto's speed. Granted it came as a surprise for Neji, but the fact is that CE KN0 Naruto and CE weightless Lee are in the same ballpark. 

Now let's look at some facts.

CE base Sasuke reached CE Lee's speed (and CE Lee is faster than SRA Lee as stated by Gaara). Back then Sasuke couldn't maintain that speed for long like Lee could though. Now at VotE Sasuke is far stronger than he was during CE. Putting his base speed above CE Lee's and definitely above SRA Lee's. 

Sasuke commented that having three tomoe is like using two tomoe and CS at the same but it is less taxing. Three tomoe + CS would put Sasuke so far above Lee its not even funny. How in the flying fuck is base Lee beating Sasuke? He can't touch him at all. Sasuke beats his ass without any difficulties. 

Then there is Gaara whose sand Sasuke has already worked his way through while being massively weaker. Sure, Gaara got stronger as well. Learning to grind sand and shit. The thing is he won't get a chance to do in here. The starting distance between them is 10 meters. Tell me how exactly is gourd sand enough to fend off Sasuke? Actually don't, it would probably be pretty damn retarded explanation.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 31, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Gaara's flying isn't nearly as good as it is in part 2. And is still a lot slower than Sasuke is.
> 
> This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke
> 
> Sasuke in base blitzed Naruto from quite a distance. Gaara is not escaping him.


Uh Sasuke wasn't that far away. i never said Gaara has to run away. Sand ball defends from Taijutsu as shown in the manga. Sasuke needed his Sharingan to follow the movements. Flight defends from Chidori, as Sasuke has only been shown to use it in a linear direction. Each time. 



> Also Gaara didn't go airborne against Kimimaro until Sawarabi no Mai came in play. So why would he do it against Sasuke so soon?


He didn't need to, until the big guns came out. When Chidori comes out he will use it. 



> Yeah, no.


Proof? Kimimaro is more skilled than Sasuke. And has better taijutsu.



> No one said that Gaara *can't* grind sand, it's just he won't any time to.


You underestimate his grinding abilities, which Sasuke doesn't know of. It didn't take him much time to grind in the first place.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Yeah they are. Kimmi reacted to Lee's 1st gate without any problems. And Lee in base is faster than Sasuke. Lee in 1st gate is even faster.



 CE Lee is not faster than CE Sasuke. It was literally stated that Sasuke is just as fast, then he got even faster afterwards and got even stronger after the boost he received from consuming the pills. Base Lee against Kimimaro was stated to be slower and it showed. He relied on pure taijutsu and his body was so weak and drastically slower than he couldn't even use Omote Renge or even attempt to run circles around Kimimaro until after 1st Base. Even then, 1st Base isn't as big of a boost as Kyuubi chakra which 3 Tomoe Sasuke wrecked. There's also the fact that Kimi himself stated that Lee's fighting style is linear which leaves him vulnerable to Sasuke's superior precognition.





> He never tried to.



 Because he couldn't. They were so evenly matched and Sasuke was so determined to defeat Naruto. 





> Do you blatantly ignore the what proves you wrong or did you legitimately miss the page right before that? Don't try to bullshit me, it won't work. The page right before that scan Sasuke was in CS1 state, as in not base.



 No he wasn't. He was impressed how much power he had and wondered how much he'd get after releasing the seal. This is also further supported when Base Sasuke effortlessly dodged Naruto's punch and effortlessly kicked him. He also took a hard blow and just speed-blitzed him afterwards. He is stated to get stronger, Sasuke and Naruto stated it. Don't ignore it.





> The surgery fixed them so they are not still broken. He is able to, he just wants to avoid it. And it's smart to not want to do something that harms you, but if it's you getting hurt vs you dieing then you choose opening the gates.




 This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke

 He can't open that many gates and considered only opening the 1st gate.





> Because as soon as he opened the first gate and Kimmi blocked the lotus Gaara showed up an took over.



 Didn't want to push himself as far and only considered opening the 1st gate. Safe to say he wouldn't open the 5th gate.




> His shows his toughness. To say he can't open the gates in the kimmi fight is stupid.



 Please. He never even attempted Omote Renge or run circles around Kimimaro until after the 1st Gate.




> Bullshit where you cherry pick scans isn't proof. Posting the page and trying to pass it off as base when the page right before it is CS1 discredits you. You can't even have an honest debate because I don't believe for one second that you missed that scan.



 Except you're ignoring the fact that he outclassed Naruto w/o his Sharingan.




> When has Gai has muscles torn, bones crushed, unconscious and still his body getting up and almost fighting.



 Gai's never used Gates in Part 1.

 But still, Sasuke does lose to Gaara. Gaara's sand from his gourd pressured Kimimaro and I'm not sure if 3 Tomoe can help Sasuke close the speed gap between him and Kimimaro as well as the fact that Gaara can effortlessly grind the sand.


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## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara is more than enough.



gaara is more than enough. especially if shukaku modes arent restricted. 

otherwise he still couldnt  deal with chidori and eats one


This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke


This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke

This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke

kakashi disagrees as well 

please note they are all talking about weightless lee here. 



chunin exam sasuke<<VOTE sasuke. so quite clearly. lee wouldnt even be a hurdle. he just dies.


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## RBL (Feb 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> gaara is more than enough. especially if shukaku modes arent restricted.
> 
> otherwise he still couldnt  deal with chidori and eats one
> 
> ...



yo bro, KN0 naruto couldn't do shit against BASE kimimaro, SICKENED drunken rock lee was man handing kimimaro, something KN0 naruto never could dream of, then again, this rock lee was slower and weaker, tsunade said rock lee needed to rest 1 more day, and then he'd be able to train in a slow-pace, but lee decided to scape in order to help his friends, and even with that, he showed more and better feats than KN0 naruto against the same oponent.

SICKENED kimimaro is by far stronger than any version of part 1 naruto and Sasuke.

Gaara would roflstomp CS2 Sasuke, and a healthy rock lee would give sasuke a run for his money.

i see either lee or gaara soloing, lee with mid-high diff, gaara with mid-low.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2015)

Bruce Lee said:


> yo bro, KN0 naruto couldn't do shit against BASE kimimaro, SICKENED drunken rock lee was man handing kimimaro, something KN0 naruto never could dream of, then again, this rock lee was slower and weaker, tsunade said rock lee needed to rest 1 more day, and then he'd be able to train in a slow-pace, but lee decided to scape in order to help his friends, and even with that, he showed more and better feats than KN0 naruto against the same oponent.
> 
> SICKENED kimimaro is by far stronger than any version of part 1 naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> ...



None of the crap you spouted remotely discredits the scanda Kishi provided 
CE sasuke was faster  than the lee that fought  kimi by gaara own admission 

Vote sasuke is obviously faster than his previous self and straight up rag  dolls lee with negative difficulty

When sasuke fights gaara the match starts 

Lee since CE till chapter 700 has never again been anytbing more than a waste of time to sasuke


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## BrokenChord (Feb 2, 2015)

Pretty sure KN0 Naruto isn't a level of strength. It's just a state Naruto goes into any time he gets any amount of Kurama's chakra that doesn't take him to KN1, which can totally fluctuate at this point because the amount of chakra Kurama gives him has nothing to do with how all-out Naruto feels like going. There's no reason to assume the KN0 Naruto that fought Kimi is at the same level as the one that blitzed 2-tomoe Sasuke and got roflstomped by 3-tomoe Sasuke...


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## Bonly (Feb 2, 2015)

Sasuke basically needs to land Chidori in order to win and now Gaara not only knows about Chidori but he also isn't fucking crazy like he was during the Chunin exams so I doubt he'll be rushing end on into it, so it's pretty much of case of which comes first, Gaara grinding up more sand to fuck Sasuke up or Sasuke landing Chidori for the win and I see the former happening more times then not since flight and a new mindset helps out Gaara avoiding the one thing Sasuke can do to win but it'll be a close match


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> gaara is more than enough. especially if shukaku modes arent restricted.
> 
> otherwise he still couldnt  deal with chidori and eats one
> 
> ...



Gaara has a clear mindset. 
Plus, that was CE Gaara. SRA is clearly a lot stronger. It goes both ways . 
Gaara is still enough. Sasuke needs to activate CS2 to stand a chance. Even then he is countered by flight.


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## SoleAccord (Feb 2, 2015)

Procrastinating my ass off on studying for a test in the morning, but I haven't done one of these in a bit, and Saikyou is a pretty cool guy, so fuck it. Lemme drop an analysis. 

As OP pointed out, this scenario is the exact same as Kimimaro v.s. Lee. Lee has not fully recovered from his surgery and begins handicapped, his weightless speed and Gates(Full usability up to his limit as shown in Chuunin Preliminaries) are unusuable, meaning he's on the losing side here. As this is the Sasuke with three-tomoe, Lee's taijutsu in base will be rendered strongly inefficient. 

Lee recognizes Sasuke's intense speed at the Chuunin Exam's. 

Gai goes on to compare it to Lee without his weights.  Lee does not have that speed here, severely weakening any possible chance he had at defending himself against Sasuke's brutal offensive. Sasuke's taijutsu had been compared to Lee's by both the author (and Lee himself of course) and Sakura. 

The Lee that had the minor skirmish with Sasuke was pretty much surpassed at least by the post-surgery Lee. Lee not only respects the Sharingan's power, but acknowledges that Sasuke has an advantage with it. His 'sense of superiority' is gone at this point, without full health to allow weightless speed and Gate usage he is unable to compete with Sasuke at the VotE level. 

"But the Sake! There's no way Sasuke can defeat Drunken Lee, Kimimaro couldn't even take him without using his Kekkei Genkai!" Yeah, but the problem with that is that Lee has no idea that he has Sake. This is the exact same situation in the manga, only replace Kimimaro with Sasuke. Lee believed it was medicine, not Sake, and Sasuke is going to be overwhelming Lee much too fast for Lee to even consider taking medicine. It will be a fight for his life from the get-go, and I believe that without starting in Drunken Fist, coupled with Lee not being aware of the medicine being Sake leaves Sasuke to end him within a couple minutes and I believe that is a generous amount of time. 

"But Lee's taijutsu--" Is going to be useless. Kimimaro had no Kekkei Genkai allowing him to read an opponents moves with relative ease, and could still avoid Lee's attacks prior to his Drunken State. Kimimaro even called his attacks linear, suggesting that without an unorthodox style of battle Lee had no chance of overtaking him without either his pre-surgery speed or mixing it up. Sasuke not only having Lee's weightless speed but the Sharingan to read his movements suggests that Lee is going to get rocked. He'll be lucky to last even two minutes in the condition he's in.

"But Lee's physical strength-" What will it matter if Sasuke can read his moves and has the advantage in speed? Lee in his condition cannot overwhelm Sasuke, and the Sharingan makes this a crushing defeat. Sasuke threw one direct blow into Naruto and drew blood, as well as knocked him back a considerable distance. Lee doesn't have that luxury without Drunken Fist. 

"But Lee-" Loses within two minutes. Sorry. Bonus panel of Gaara even noticing that Lee was weaker than he was before. 

Next up...

Sasuke and Gaara have fair knowledge of one another due to their unfinished fight, only Gaara does not actively use his Shukaku form, nor has any control over it. After Sasuke's talk I have little reason to believe we'll see Shukaku come out. Sasuke's speed is superior, his Sharingan is fully matured, and Gaara has been shown to be overwhelmed in the past. Nothing suggests Gaara can take on Sasuke's speed at this time. He has been shown to better utilize his sand for clever tricks such as bringing Kimimaro's attention up high to mask the attack below, but with Sasuke's speed, his sight, and his lethal jutsu I don't believe Gaara's stationary presence will allow him to keep up with Sasuke long enough to comfortable grind sand. Gaara is a *REACTIONARY* fighter, he waits for the opponent. 

He reacted against Kimimaro, rather than begin the attacks.  EDIT - Admitting an error here, Gaara did try a maneuver on Kimimaro here first just before Kimimaro counterattacked, my mistake. This part is rendered kinda moot now, but Gaara is shown to prefer reaction over his own action in the following fights below. We must also keep in mind that Lee offered Gaara some intel on the opponent first hand so Gaara wanted to keep him away due to his Kekkei Genkai. With intel Gaara can make the first move, as shown, as long as his sanity isn't in question like in the Exams. 

He reacted against Sasuke, rather than begin the attacks. 

He reacted against Lee, rather than begin the attacks. 

Gaara will not so easily forget Sasuke's abilities, because only Sasuke was the one who could truly bring out the thrill of battle. He cared so little about others that even when he was in a position to kill Shikamaru and Naruto he spared them. Gaara won't walk into this an idiot, but Sasuke's advantages are plentiful. Sasuke will know that ninja tools will prove ineffective, yet his speed won't fail him, especially since Lee won't even deplete a quarter of his stamina in a such a weak state. Shield of Shukaku would work as a defense against Chidori, but Sasuke remembers all too well that even if he pieced the dome, it won't defeat Gaara unless he's fast enough to get him before he's completely sealed. A frontal attack out of arrogance won't occur here. Sasuke isn't cocky enough to do the same thing twice when it's proven to be irrelevant and ineffective. Gaara benefits from one-shot counterattacks, Sasuke can read his sand, and is smart enough to avoid risks related to it. It is in his best interest to put Gaara down quickly before he can counterattack fast enough, and against the likes of Sand Armor he'll know Chidori is his best option. Seeing as he won't need one to put an end to Lee (at least I don't believe he will), he'll have enough for two or three attempts but one is all he'll need. 

Sasuke can overtake a  base Naruto who has more experience in close range combat than Gaara, and Sasuke was toying with him.  Naruto is faster than Gaara in physical speed, reaction is all Gaara has to him, and his reaction feats do not suggest that he can endure Sasuke's assault. He is moving faster than even Naruto can keep up with. I've said it several times now: Sasuke's speed is key, his Kekkei Genkai just makes it overkill. 

Sasuke's Katon's will easily put Gaara on the defensive - he won't run, he's incapable of outspeeding Sasuke, so he puts up his guard. Sasuke knows how linear his attack is and prepares the counter attack, which can be a flank to Gaara which he had done in the past.  Once again, his speed shines, his ability to react after a jutsu shines, he does not waste time (this is CS1 but his mindset hasn't changed). I believe Sasuke closes this out without CS1, but by using it Gaara has lost all opportunity to come back from a staggering low probability of victory against Sasuke. 

Without prep, without full knowledge, and without Lee's health, *Sasuke wins this with Low-Difficulty*, *CS1 makes this No-Difficulty*. Gaara needs Lee at full health and with him to even have a chance at defeating Sasuke here. His speed alone can take this for him in base, Sharingan and Curse Mark both just saves him a minute of minuscule effort. This is me believing that Sasuke can take this before Gaara resorts to additional sand grinding, if this was an extended fight with different circumstances I would probably raise the difficulty considerably. Sasuke's advantages outweigh Gaara's IMO.  *Perhaps I am underestimating Gaara with my verdict though, so if someone can convince me Gaara can hold Sasuke off for 30-45 seconds while he attempts to grind in spite of the evidence I've provided, I'll be happy to increase the difficulty. I just cannot see it myself. * 

Well, that was fun. Erased a couple errors I made in my haste, if I missed anything let me know.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 2, 2015)

From what I've noticed, I can definitely confirm to IchLiebe that Sasuke was definitely not using CS when he manhandled Naruto for the very first time.

 Sasuke would not want to be using the Cursed Seal for prolonged periods of time. That's why he decided to outright blitz him and use Chidori on his right shoulder. There's also the fact that 3 Tomoe Sasuke himself stated that the Cursed Seal uses up too much power and that he'd much rather fight using his Sharingan. This is also confirmed by the fact that Sasuke decided not to use CS against KN0 Naruto even doe 3 Tomoe = 2 Tomoe + CS which trashes KN0 Naruto yet he hesitated to use it. He even hesitated to use it against KN1 Naruto even though he was getting trashed and barely decided to use it after he realized he had no choice.

 That, and would Sasuke honestly want to waste chakra for no reason trying to get Orochimaru? It makes no sense for him to be able to maintain the Cursed Seal for that long anyways. Nothing suggests it and the longest he's ever maintained it is for a few minutes.

 There's no denying it. Sasuke did get faster to the point that he can blitz Naruto who could rival 2 Tomoe Sasuke prior to receiving his power.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara has a clear mindset.
> Plus, that was CE Gaara. SRA is clearly a lot stronger. It goes both ways .
> Gaara is still enough. Sasuke needs to activate CS2 to stand a chance. Even then he is countered by flight.



i completely agree with you 
100%
gaara got loads stronger and could win 

my only disagreement was anyone even bringing up lee, like he is relevant


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## Stermor (Feb 4, 2015)

gaara is the strongest rookie until the timeskip. 

which include both vote sasuke and vote naruto. 

sick lee would school sasuke in cqc.. even if lee was slower then cs2 sasuke at that point there is still a huge skill gap. that sasuke is not overcomming with chidori(which does very little in cqc at that point). 

it is unlikely that lee can bring sasuke down though in cs2, without gates.. 

sasuke is not touching gaara though..


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## RBL (Feb 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i completely agree with you
> 100%
> gaara got loads stronger and could win
> 
> my only disagreement was anyone even bringing up lee, like he is relevant



if lee is sick, then he has nothing against sasuke.

then again, i didn't read the op saying this war SRA rock lee.

my bad.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2015)

It's kk Bruce lee 
Obviously war arc lee would beat a genin 
Sasuke 
Would never debate that


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## RBL (Feb 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> It's kk Bruce lee
> Obviously war arc lee would beat a genin
> Sasuke
> Would never debate that



nope, with SRA lee i mean sick lee, if this was genin healthy lee, he would beat any part 1 sasuke version.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2015)

Bruce Lee said:


> nope, with SRA lee i mean sick lee, if this was genin healthy lee, he would beat any part 1 sasuke version.



Kishi firmly disagrees 
By Chunin exams sasuke was as fast and had copied his taijutsu
By VoTe genin lee was at best a waste of sasuke time 

Sasuke beats lee to the ground . Long before gates come up


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## IchLiebe (Feb 4, 2015)

Yet Sasuke never got above a 3.5 in taijutsu, even part 2 version. He taijutsu was "like Lee's" and his speed was close to weightless Lee. Sasuke never got faster, posting the scan where he said he was stronger "just then" and just then being a moment where he was using the curse seal doesn't make him faster. And nor does Sasuke have better reactions. Lee could fight in 5th gate and that >>>>>>>anything Sasuke reacted to.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Yet Sasuke never got above a 3.5 in taijutsu, even part 2 version. He taijutsu was "like Lee's" and his speed was close to weightless Lee. Sasuke never got faster, posting the scan where he said he was stronger "just then" and just then being a moment where he was using the curse seal doesn't make him faster. And nor does Sasuke have better reactions. Lee could fight in 5th gate and that >>>>>>>anything Sasuke reacted to.



 But he blitzed Naruto  who was dead even in Taijutsu and in speed when Sasuke used his Sharingan even doe his taijutsu is considerably lower than Sasuke's in the databook.

 He also didn't use the Cursed Seal as if he did, he would've been feeling the effects of the Cursed Seal, or loss of chakra by now which he didn't which implies it was just the after-effect of the pill and he was still in Base.

 3 Tomoe Sasuke wrecks CE Lee (not 5th gates) and just trashes the hell out of Sick Lee.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But he blitzed Naruto  who was dead even in Taijutsu and in speed when Sasuke used his Sharingan even doe his taijutsu is considerably lower than Sasuke's in the databook.



Sasuke is way faster than Naruto, as is Lee. And Sasuke blitzed him with and without the curse seal.



> He also didn't use the Cursed Seal as if he did, he would've been feeling the effects of the Cursed Seal, or loss of chakra by now which he didn't which implies it was just the after-effect of the pill and he was still in Base.



The curse seal was on his face in the panel where he states "It was that much power just then, that must've been the power Orochimaru was talking about". It was obvious he was talking about the curse seal and NOTHING states he got faster or better between chunnin exams and Vote. He merely got power ups (3 tomoe and CS2, neither of which makes Sasuke faster).



> 3 Tomoe Sasuke wrecks CE Lee (not 5th gates) and just trashes the hell out of Sick Lee.



Sasuke has worse taijutsu and is slightly slower. Naruto is leagues below them in speed and absolutely terrible in taijutsu. Saying Sasuke beats Lee because he beat Naruto in taijutsu in like saying TenTen hurt Ei because Bee did. It's fucking terrible logic.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke is way faster than Naruto, as is Lee. And Sasuke blitzed him with and without the curse seal.



 Yet Sharingan Sasuke couldn't blitz Base Naruto prior to consuming the pill which you're ignoring. Sasuke could never blitz Naruto w/o his Sharingan until after consuming the pill.

 Link removed

 That's not blitzing.

 This is:

 Link removed

 Which was clearly done in Base, * w/ no Sharingan. *




> The curse seal was on his face in the panel where he states "It was that much power just then, that must've been the power Orochimaru was talking about". It was obvious he was talking about the curse seal and NOTHING states he got faster or better between chunnin exams and Vote. He merely got power ups (3 tomoe and CS2, neither of which makes Sasuke faster).



 Link removed

 Which could imply he did use a small amount of the Cursed Seal power. However, he states that the Cursed Seal is synchronizing with his body which implies that after that point, he received that boost in power in just his normal state which leads to his curiosity of what kind of power he'd gain if he releases this seal in the first place.

 Nothing is stated unless you take Sasuke and Naruto's word for it, but feats suggest Sasuke's stats went higher overall.





> Sasuke has worse taijutsu and is slightly slower. Naruto is leagues below them in speed and absolutely terrible in taijutsu. Saying Sasuke beats Lee because he beat Naruto in taijutsu in like saying TenTen hurt Ei because Bee did. It's fucking terrible logic.



 Except my first scan says otherwise. Sasuke does beat Lee mainly due to speed and enhanced precognition. Sasuke's speed is enough to blitz Naruto who can react to and fight evenly in CQC against 2 Tomoe Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) who was stated to be as fast as CE Lee. Even if CE Sasuke's Taijutsu was inferior to CE Lee's, there's also the fact that Sasuke has 2 Tomoe which helps him out more than the gap in taijutsu they may have.


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2015)

i already provided scans. Gai, lee and kakashi all directly compared CE sasuke genin lee weightless speed. 
lee himself said he cant even fight as effectively at those speeds due to no sharingan. yet people argue. 

since then every version of sasuke would beat every version of lee. Part 2 sasuke lolz at war arc lee. 

Lee needs gate to become a treat to anyone.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Sharingan Sasuke couldn't blitz Base Naruto prior to consuming the pill which you're ignoring. Sasuke could never blitz Naruto w/o his Sharingan until after consuming the pill.



Sasuke never tried. Kakashi never blitz'd Tenten guess he can't do it. The pill did NOTHING to Sasuke. It advanced the curse seal to level 2. It did not make him stronger, faster, nor better. Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto. Sarcasm btw, I'm showing your flawed logic. That's exactly what happened on the roof, then Naruto made a shit ton of bunshins, Sasuke taijutsu'd them, then used a katon, then it was chidori/rasengan shit.



> Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.
> 
> That's not blitzing.



That's not trying to blitz. As I pointed out above.



> This is:
> 
> Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.



AND? I agree Sasuke blitz's Naruto. Chunnin exam Sasuke does the exact same.



> Which was clearly done in Base, * w/ no Sharingan. *



Sharingan doesn't enhance speed. Don't know why you're talking like it does.



> Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.
> 
> Which could imply he did use a small amount of the Cursed Seal power. However, he states that the Cursed Seal is synchronizing with his body which implies that after that point, he received that boost in power in just his normal state which leads to his curiosity of what kind of power he'd gain if he releases this seal in the first place.



No, it means he can use the curse seal without it killing him. You remember how Orochimaru stated that only 1/10 survived it being put on them. He was in a coma after Orochimaru first put it on him and then it part of the chunnin exams he couldn't even use chakra without overwhelming pain. He never got a power boost in base. He merely was able to fight normally without it killing him.



> Nothing is stated unless you take Sasuke and Naruto's word for it, but feats suggest Sasuke's stats went higher overall.



What feats? Sasuke being just as fast, just as good in taijutsu as in the chunnin exams. You can't say he didn't blitz Naruto before then because he never tried. Nothing states he got faster in base, nothing hints at it, nothing implies it. The curse seal adjusted to his body. 




> Except my first scan says otherwise. Sasuke does beat Lee mainly due to speed and enhanced precognition. Sasuke's speed is enough to blitz Naruto who can react to and fight evenly in CQC against 2 Tomoe Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) who was stated to be as fast as CE Lee. Even if CE Sasuke's Taijutsu was inferior to CE Lee's, there's also the fact that Sasuke has 2 Tomoe which helps him out more than the gap in taijutsu they may have.



Naruto got wrecked by Sasuke. As you posted, Sasuke blitz'd him in base. Yet then go to say Naruto can fight evenly with a 2 tomoe Sasuke. Pick one side or the other. Either Sasuke can or can't blitz Naruto. No matter what form, he can as he did in base. NOW that does not mean Sasuke will land a hit everytime. He didn't use his fullspeed constantly. No one does, Sasuke don't, Kakashi don't, Ei don't (he actually has fucking gears v1, v2, and fullspeed). Lee has weighted speed, weightless, 1st gate, 2nd gate, etc.



Icegaze said:


> i already provided scans. Gai, lee and kakashi all directly compared CE sasuke genin lee weightless speed.



Gai said Sasuke was CLOSE, exact being "about as fast as Lee without weights". No one said he was as fast as Lee.



> lee himself said he cant even fight as effectively at those speeds due to no sharingan. yet people argue.



No, Lee said he couldn't run fullspeed at someone head on and watch for their counter. AKA chidori. That's the same problem Kakashi had in gaiden. You're moving too fast to watch for their counter and you get hit. The sharingan nullifies that counter.



> since then every version of sasuke would beat every version of lee. Part 2 sasuke lolz at war arc lee.



VoTE Sasuke beating War arc 6th gate Lee? NO CHANCE.



> Lee needs gate to become a treat to anyone.



Sasuke needs sharingan, Oonoki needs jinton, Itachi needs sharingan, Kisame needs samehada, etc.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 5, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke never tried. Kakashi never blitz'd Tenten guess he can't do it. The pill did NOTHING to Sasuke. It advanced the curse seal to level 2. It did not make him stronger, faster, nor better. Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto. Sarcasm btw, I'm showing your flawed logic. That's exactly what happened on the roof, then Naruto made a shit ton of bunshins, Sasuke taijutsu'd them, then used a katon, then it was chidori/rasengan shit.



 Except Sasuke was determined to beat Naruto and was sweating bullets after his taijutsu clash with Naruto after using his Sharingan.



> Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.
> 
> That's not blitzing.
> 
> ...



 Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.
 Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.

 Here's another example.




> That's not trying to blitz. As I pointed out above.



 You didn't disprove my logic. All you're doing is ignoring my evidence and posting shit that you think might be disproving my logic, but actually isn't. Kakashi never faced Tenten. If he did, he'd outright blitz or the author would imply that he's holding back like he did against Team 7 considering it is one of Gai's students. 

 Sasuke did face Naruto and under these circumstances, he wanted to prove his superiority.

 Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.

 This certainly sounds like not trying to beat your opponent to you? 




> AND? I agree Sasuke blitz's Naruto. Chunnin exam Sasuke does the exact same.



 Except I proved he couldn't.





> Sharingan doesn't enhance speed. Don't know why you're talking like it does.



 Enhanced precognition failed to help him get through Naruto's taijutsu and land a hit. If Naruto could counter him, then it'd be all over as without his Sharingan, he can't react to Naruto. However, he effortlessly blitzed him and Naruto couldn't even react meaning Base Sasuke (VoTE) >> 2 Tomoe Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) = Naruto.  * Fact. *





> No, it means he can use the curse seal without it killing him. You remember how Orochimaru stated that only 1/10 survived it being put on them. He was in a coma after Orochimaru first put it on him and then it part of the chunnin exams he couldn't even use chakra without overwhelming pain. He never got a power boost in base. He merely was able to fight normally without it killing him.



 You didn't refute what I said. He specifically said, "The * power * is synchronizing with my body." 

Here's VoTE Sasuke not blitz'ing base Naruto.



> What feats? Sasuke being just as fast, just as good in taijutsu as in the chunnin exams. You can't say he didn't blitz Naruto before then because he never tried. Nothing states he got faster in base, nothing hints at it, nothing implies it. The curse seal adjusted to his body.



 I disproved that he did try.

 Good, but that doesn't refute the statement, "The power is synchronizing with my body." Emphasis on power.

 The fact that he blitzed Naruto without his Sharingan implies he was far above him. Naruto displayed many exclamation marks meaning he didn't expect Sasuke to be that strong. However, he never displayed any exclamation marks against 2 Tomoe Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) meaning he did get stronger unless you love ignoring evidence.




> Naruto got wrecked by Sasuke. As you posted, Sasuke blitz'd him in base. Yet then go to say Naruto can fight evenly with a 2 tomoe Sasuke. Pick one side or the other. Either Sasuke can or can't blitz Naruto. No matter what form, he can as he did in base. NOW that does not mean Sasuke will land a hit everytime. He didn't use his fullspeed constantly. No one does, Sasuke don't, Kakashi don't, Ei don't (he actually has fucking gears v1, v2, and fullspeed). Lee has weighted speed, weightless, 1st gate, 2nd gate, etc.



 Base Sasuke (VoTE) >> 2 Tomoe Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) = Naruto 

 Nice try, that's what I stated all along.

 Except Lee does use his full speed for a considerably long time. Sasuke's full speed which was equal to Weightless Lee's at the CE managed to beat Gaara before Sasuke tired out to the point where Gaara needed to use his Shukaku Shell. Even Lee can maintain his speed for longer which was implied by himself and his speed only deteriorated after using the Hidden Lotus.

 Base Sasuke effortlessly blitzed Naruto as well without any sign of effort. He gave Naruto a direct kick to the face and managed to use Chidori directly afterwards. He's going to be using a level of speed that outright destroys Naruto.




> Gai said Sasuke was CLOSE, exact being "about as fast as Lee without weights". No one said he was as fast as Lee.



 The curse seal adjusted to his body.

 But Lee said Sasuke had * his * speed and was surprised how he attained that level of speed in a month while it took him years to master it. Emphasis on "his" speed. They were portrayed as equals with the Sharingan putting Sasuke on another level.





> No, Lee said he couldn't run fullspeed at someone head on and watch for their counter. AKA chidori. That's the same problem Kakashi had in gaiden. You're moving too fast to watch for their counter and you get hit. The sharingan nullifies that counter.



 You're correct.





> VoTE Sasuke beating War arc 6th gate Lee? NO CHANCE.



 He over-exaggerated, but his point is spot on regardless.





> Sasuke needs sharingan, Oonoki needs jinton, Itachi needs sharingan, Kisame needs samehada, etc.



 Except Sasuke pisses on Lee, so Lee needs Gates.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 5, 2015)

Show me Sasuke using his speed pre VoTE against Naruto. Don't show me Sasuke running just as fast Naruto like in the VoTE scan I showed (where they ran at each other and caught each other's fist). I want to see Sasuke's fullspeed fail to blitz Naruto. 

The power is the curse seal. He said "just this much power in that instant" and in that instant was using the curse seal.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 5, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Show me Sasuke using his speed pre VoTE against Naruto. Don't show me Sasuke running just as fast Naruto like in the VoTE scan I showed (where they ran at each other and caught each other's fist). I want to see Sasuke's fullspeed fail to blitz Naruto.



 So thus V1 Raikage and Taka Sasuke are at the same level of speed because Sasuke also rushed in against V1 Raikage the same way he did against Naruto?

 I already showed you yet you failed to listen.



> The power is the curse seal. He said "just this much power in that instant" and in that instant was using the curse seal.



 He mentions that the Cursed Seal's power is radiating throughout his body, so thus, is having an effect on his normal body, hence the word synchronizing. There's also the fact that he alludes to how much power he'd gain if he releases the seal, so he didn't even take into consideration of the Seal's power until after he stated that.

 But good argument. You did better than expected, but I'm done with this argument now.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So thus V1 Raikage and Taka Sasuke are at the same level of speed because Sasuke also rushed in against V1 Raikage the same way he did against Naruto?



They didn't rush at each other. They were a couple of feet from each other. I showed you Naruto and Sasuke at VoTE clashing so does that make them equal speed? Because in your opinion that means Sasuke failed to blitz Naruto right there correct?



> I already showed you yet you failed to listen.



You showed nothing except Sasuke running at Naruto without fullspeed. No one goes fullspeed constantly. Right here shows Sasuke running and can't get past Gaara's sand and then he kicks it into gear and starts destroying Gaara. 



> He mentions that the Cursed Seal's power is radiating throughout his body, so thus, is having an effect on his normal body, hence the word synchronizing. There's also the fact that he alludes to how much power he'd gain if he releases the seal, so he didn't even take into consideration of the Seal's power until after he stated that.



Naruto could use Kurama's chakra without releasing the seal. Same way Sasuke used the curse mark without releasing the seal. Releasing it is curse mark 2. A seal is like a dam, some water (chakra) will get through, release it and it floods.

And synchronizing has already been explained. It kills people. It takes away people's "will". Synchronizing takes those effects away. In no way does it make them stronger in base. 



> But good argument. You did better than expected, but I'm done with this argument now.



Don't quit. I start showing you're arguments up and you quit, looks bad. At least concede, it looks better.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2015)

^ Except everyone except you agrees Sasuke (VoTE) >> Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) = Naruto.

 It's you ignoring evidence which is why I quit.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Sharingan Sasuke couldn't blitz Base Naruto prior to consuming the pill which you're ignoring. Sasuke could never blitz Naruto w/o his Sharingan until after consuming the pill.



Quick question but can you explain why a Sasuke who just woke up from a coma that he was in for over a week due to Itachi's Tsukuyomi would be at 100 perfect percent a few minutes later?


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Quick question but can you explain why a Sasuke who just woke up from a coma that he was in for over a week due to Itachi's Tsukuyomi would be at 100 perfect percent a few minutes later?



Can be explained by the fact that Sasuke looked like he was perfectly fine (physically) when he challenged Naruto. Nothing wrong with his body. Tsunade had healed him.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 6, 2015)

Poor Sasuke...

First he has to deal with Lee who in drunken state could give Base Kimimaro trouble and force him to use his bloodline limit. Something that K0 Naruto was unable to.

Then if he wins using CS1 or CS2 he has to deal with Gaara who pushed a CS2 Kimimaro and though ultimately weaker was still a worthy opponent.

What can Sasuke do against such guy after wasting some of his strength on Lee?


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

sasuke would waste no strength on lee
sasuke is faster and has precog
again lee is an utter waste of time to sasuke


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## IchLiebe (Feb 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Except everyone except you agrees Sasuke (VoTE) >> Sasuke (Pre-VoTE) = Naruto.
> 
> It's you ignoring evidence which is why I quit.



Show I start proving you wrong and you stop arguing? You know weighted Lee could blitz chunnin exams Naruto and saying that Sasuke is as fast as weightless Lee means he can to. Again, just because he didn't try doesn't mean he can't.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Quick question but can you explain why a Sasuke who just woke up from a coma that he was in for over a week due to Itachi's Tsukuyomi would be at 100 perfect percent a few minutes later?



 Can you explain to me why Naruto wouldn't be fatigued from his near-death experience that was much worse than Sasuke's? It's obvious Tsunade's healing is god-like considering Kakashi recovered to full strength and he shitty recovery as well.

 Can you explain to me why Sasuke after using up all his chakra and has the CS feed on his chakra as well managed to recover almost intantly after the battle?

 There's the fact that Kishi goes out of his way to state that Lee's physical state was worse than before whereas he never implied Sasuke's physical state was weaker.

 @IchLiebe

 Same as you conceding to me in the Itachi vs. Sannin thread? 

 Yeah, that's what I thought.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2015)

Sorry naruto X28 
whats your opinion on a lee vs sasuke in this match up 

mine is lee dies quickly.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Can you explain to me why Naruto wouldn't be fatigued from his near-death experience that was much worse than Sasuke's?



Because he had time to rest while traveling from whatever town they found Tsunade in back to Konoha as along with the fact that he has Kurama's healing factor pretty much explains that for ya.



> It's obvious Tsunade's healing is god-like considering Kakashi recovered to full strength and he shitty recovery as well.



But can you prove he was at full strength minutes after waking up?



> Can you explain to me why Sasuke after using up all his chakra and has the CS feed on his chakra as well managed to recover almost intantly after the battle?



Seeing as how he's been in more then one battle since he got the CS you're gonna have to be a bit more specific seeing as how during his second fight with Gaara he didn't instantly recover right after the battle so I don't know what you're referring to.



> There's the fact that Kishi goes out of his way to state that Lee's physical state was worse than before whereas he never implied Sasuke's physical state was weaker.



You mean he never implied it besides Sasuke just waking up after being up in a coma? Alrighty then


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Because he had time to rest while traveling from whatever town they found Tsunade in back to Konoha as along with the fact that he has Kurama's healing factor pretty much explains that for ya.



 My point was that Tsunade's healing is pretty damn amazing.




> But can you prove he was at full strength minutes after waking up?



 Can you prove he wasn't? He showed no physical fatigue at all and he has shitty recovery as well.




> Seeing as how he's been in more then one battle since he got the CS you're gonna have to be a bit more specific seeing as how during his second fight with Gaara he didn't instantly recover right after the battle so I don't know what you're referring to.



 My bad, I meant the battle with Shukaku Gaara. Unfortunately, I was in a rush for school, so I forgot to add that detail in. Anyways .....

 Not instantly, but it also didn't take a week just to recover.




> You mean he never implied it besides Sasuke just waking up after being up in a coma? Alrighty then



 Except he was in CS2 afterwards and was ready to head to Orochimaru. Nothing implies his physical state was weakened. Quite the opposite like I proved before.

 @Icegaze

 Sasuke trashes Lee neg diff.


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