# Where would you rank the Sannin among the Akatsuki members?



## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

*Akatsuki:*
Hidan
Kakuzu
Itachi
Kisame
Obito
Zetsu
Deidara
Sasori
Konan
Pain/Nagato

*Sannin:*
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade

*Bonus:*
Hiruzen


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

*Orochi*
Obito
Nagato
Itachi
*Jiraiya
Tsunade*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara/Zetsu
Kakuzu/Konan
Hidan/*Hiruzen*


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 4, 2015)

Nagato
Kabuto
Hiruzen
Itachi
0r0chi
jiraiya
Sasori
Tsunade
Kisame
Kakuzu
Deidara
Konan
Zetsu
Hidan


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## ARGUS (Jun 4, 2015)

Obito 
Nagato 
Itachi 
*Jiraiya*
Kisame 
*Orochimaru*
*Hiruzen*
Deidara 
Kakuzu
*Tsunade *
Sasori 
Hidan 
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Jun 4, 2015)

Nagato 
Itachi
Obito  
Kisame
Deidara
*Jiraiya 
Orochimaru
Hiruzen 
Tsunade*
Kakuzu 
Sasori 
Konan
Hidan 
Zetsu


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## FlamingRain (Jun 4, 2015)

Where would you put Konan?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2015)

Pain / Itachi(no sickness)
Obito (1 MS)
*SM Jiraiya*
Deidara / *Oro*
Kisame (no chakra on Samehada)
Sasori / Kakuzu 
*Tsunade*
*Hiruzen*
Hidan
Konan
Zetsu


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Obito
nagato
itachi
jiraiya
orochimaru
tsunade
sasori
kisame
deidara
kakuzu
konan
hidan


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
*Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade*
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan

Essentially they're the big three after the Akatsuki big three.


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## Turrin (Jun 4, 2015)

1. Orochimaru [Edo-Tensei]
2. Nagato
3. Obito
4. Kisame [Hopped up on Bijuu chakra]
5. Hiruzen [Prime]/Edo-Itachi
6. Jiraiya
7. Sasori/Orochimaru [P1-Edo-Tensei]
8. Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke Fight]/Hiruzen [Old]
9. Tsunade [War-Arc]
10. Orochimaru [Armless and Bodyless]
11. Kakuzu
12. Deidara
13. Kisame [No Bijuu Chalra]
14. Hidan

Zetsu and Konan are too tough to rank


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

No ET for Oro.

1- Nagato/Obito
2- Pain ~ *Jiraiya*
3- *Tsunade*, itachi, and *Oro*.
4- Kisame (would lose to Deidara tho)
5- Kakuzu
6- Konan (probably?)
7- Sasori
8- Deidara
9- Hidan 

I guess we can put Hiruzen with #3. 

@Turrin



> 5. Hiruzen [Prime]/Edo-Itachi



How did you know about Hiruzen's prime? Hype?
how is itachi comparable?


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## Mercurial (Jun 4, 2015)

1) Obito
2) Six Paths of Pain (Nagato)
3) Zetsu
4) Itachi
5) Orochimaru
6) Jiraiya
7) Kisame
8) Deidara
9) Sasori
10) Kakuzu
11) Hiruzen
12) Tsunade
13) Konan
14) Hidan


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No ET for Oro.
> 
> 1- Nagato/Obito
> 2- Pain ~ *Jiraiya*
> ...




These 2 are by far the worst lists I've seen in my entire life. 


Hebi Fight Itachi being weaker than Orochimaru

Pain and Jiraiya being equal


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## Beyonce (Jun 5, 2015)

*Orochimaru *(edo tensei)
Obito
Nagato
Pain
Itachi
*Jiraiya*
Kisame
*Tsunade*
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hiruzen (old)
Hidan
Zetsu


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## ARGUS (Jun 5, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> 1) Obito
> 2) Six Paths of Pain (Nagato)
> 3) Zetsu
> 4) Itachi
> ...



may i ask what made you put zetsu so high?


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> These 2 are by far the worst lists I've seen in my entire life.
> 
> 
> Hebi Fight Itachi being weaker than Orochimaru
> ...



even you know very well that the only thing makes Jiraiya being ranked lower is more or less the boner people have for itachi. 

Pain admitted that he could have not been able to win against Jiraiya


and itachi admitted that he is inferior to him as well


which obito agreed that Jiraiya deserve his reputation.  

just like how they use Hashirama's words to wank itachi, but ignore a superior shinobi when it comes to Jiraiya


Those are what people consider as the top 3 all agrees about Jiraiya. I just so happened to not underestimate him grossly/disgustingly as the others do.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Orochimaru(War + ET)
Obito
Nagato
Itachi/Hiruzen(Prime hype)
Orochimaru(Part 1)
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Hiruzen(Old)
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

old hiruzen better than kakuzu 
oh common! kakuzu violates


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> even you know very well that the only thing makes Jiraiya being ranked lower is more or less the boner people have for itachi.
> 
> Pain admitted that he could have not been able to win against Jiraiya
> 
> ...



So Obito thinks Jiraiya's reputation is good enough to keep Pain's hands full. How does that make him Pain's equal ? Obito is basically not surprised that Pain wrecked Jiraiya's shit, albeit with some difficulty. 

Pain is basically saying that had Jiraiya known about Nagato, then he *probably* couldn't have won. That isn't an admission of equality, that is basically admitting that Jiraiya would have a shot @ defeating him under very specific circumstances that aren't directly related to their power.

As for Itachi, he was obviously lying about it, as he was able to defeat another guy with the same reputation with Jiraiya with no difficulty or whatsoever when he was 13. Or you may call it a retcon, but we later on learned that the legendary title of a Sannin means nothing for Itachi, contrary to what Kisame was suggesting. That statement is rendered moot by various other evidence through out the course of the manga. Sure, you can cling to it if you ignore every other chapter that came after it. But then, you can ignore lots of other things too.

And if you'r going to take Obito's words @ face value, then why don't you take the words of the guy with the actual "God of Ninja" nickname @ face value as well ? Why is a guy who is a greater shinobi than "The God of Shinobi" is placed among Orochimaru and Tsunade ?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> old hiruzen better than kakuzu
> oh common! kakuzu violates


Kakuzu might win but it is more about matchups. With Shiki Fujin, 5 elements, Enma and general competence even Old Hiruzen is strong. He simply suffers from power inflation. He was able to outperform Healthy Oro with Edo Tensei. Orochimaru was fucking around but it was still a very impressive feat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

^
Yeah but he was pretty underwhelming as an Edo too.
Kakuzu'd prison rape him post part 1 as well.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakuzu might win but it is more about matchups. With Shiki Fujin, 5 elements, Enma and general competence even Old Hiruzen is strong. He simply suffers from power inflation. He was able to outperform Healthy Oro with Edo Tensei. Orochimaru was fucking around but it was still a very impressive feat.



even generally 

kakuzu domu plus ability to attack from 5 different angles without wasting chakra puts him above hiruzen 

in a direct match up. kakuzu should beat every version of hiruzen

bar this fan fic hype one that kishi dropped quickly


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 5, 2015)

I've always held the notion that Hiruzen would hang 1v1 against most high tiers for a little bit, but his stamina will crap out after a few exchanges and then he'd die.  Anyone below kage tier gets destroyed in those five active seconds.  Sort of like the super version of P1 Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I've always held the notion that Hiruzen would hang 1v1 against most high tiers for a little bit, but his stamina will crap out after a few exchanges and then he'd die.  Anyone below kage tier gets destroyed in those five active seconds.  Sort of like the super version of P1 Kakashi.



jugo is below kage tier. i dont see why he will die in 5 seconds or BM chouji 

none are kage tier if u compare how easily every kage bar hiruzen can beat them

including Mei. yes Mei!!!!


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## Mercurial (Jun 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> may i ask what made you put zetsu so high?



How Zetsu is ridiculously believed to be "weak" is out any sense. First of all, the common misconception about Zetsu not being a combat type refers to White Zetsu, it was said by Obito when Zetsu manifested the will to try to capture Naruto. And anyway I don't think that is so shameful for White Zetsu to be shit talked when he would have had to face Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi and post Pain Arc/pre War Arc Naruto, not exactly two fodders.

Black Zetsu is nearly unkillable with normal means. Chojuro bisected him taking him off guard, and still he was easily alive, he seems made of some strange mud that normal physical attacks can't "kill", even if usually deadly. To kill/defeat him you probably have to use hax things like Kamui or Gudodama, high destructive attacks like Bijuu Dama, maybe something like Gai's Asa Kujaku should work, and fuuinjutsu too should work. Also probably he can be fucked up with things like genjutsu or Raiton paralysis.

His knowledge extends on almost everyone and everything. His speed and reflexes are enough that he can fight without any problem at CQC distance with top speedsters like Kakashi, Minato and KCM Naruto. He can use Mokuton, he can travel underground in a unpredictable way that only Rinnegan can detect, with the White Zetsu half he can use clones to substitute and create distractions to land the spores on the enemy and absorb their chakra and make easier for him to "control" them, with a control that basically means GG, we saw how powerful it was, Rinnegan Sasuke couldn't free from it, even fucking Juubi jinchuriki Madara couldn't. The surprise attack on Madara only is something I won't count as a feat, it's so nonsense, Madara had even Linbo around him, I really can't explain that, and Black Zetsu in Obito's body surely shouldn't have been so fast to completely blitz Madara, clearly.

Before someone says that Zetsu admitted that he would have had not even a chance against Kakashi + Minato, I would ask how many ninja, out of the god tier and the Hashirama-Edo/EMS Madara/BM-BSM Naruto could have a chance to fight alone against that duo with mastered offensive Kamui + Hiraishin + two absolute genius working together.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

outside god tier non can fight minato and kakashi and win 
a team of 3 or 4 high kage with good counters are needed. 

short of that they slaughter


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## StickaStick (Jun 5, 2015)

*Orochimaru (ET)*
Nagato
Obito (MS)
Itachi / *J-Man (SM)*
*Tsunade (Byakugou) *
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakazu
Konan
Hidan

Don't really know where to put BZ and *Prime Hiruzen*; although if I had to conjure a guess I'd say BZ is towards the bottom of the list under most circumstances and Prime Hiruzen would be around Nagato's level.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> These 2 are by far the worst lists I've seen in my entire life.


I assure you the feeling is mutual:



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pain / Itachi(no sickness)






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara / *Oro*






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pain / Itachi(no sickness)
> *Deidara */Oro
> Kisame (no chakra on Samehada)
> *Sasori */ Kakuzu






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pain / Itachi(no sickness)
> *Deidara */ Oro
> Kisame (no chakra on Samehada)
> Sasori / Kakuzu
> *Tsunade*






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pain / Itachi(no sickness)
> Obito (1 MS)
> SM Jiraiya
> *Deidara* / Oro
> ...






Grimmjowsensei said:


> P
> Sasori / *Kakuzu *
> *Tsunade*
> Hiruzen
> ...







Grimmjowsensei said:


> P
> Sasori / *Kakuzu *
> Tsunade
> *Hiruzen*
> ...







Grimmjowsensei said:


> P
> Sasori / Kakuzu
> Tsunade
> Hiruzen
> ...







Grimmjowsensei said:


> P
> Sasori / Kakuzu
> Tsunade
> Hiruzen
> ...




Just to only scratch the surface of how maddeningly bad your list is.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

All of your lists are bad -except for mine-. It's pointless to argue which one is worst because that's won't make yours any better. :ignoramus


*Spoiler*: __ 



joking


*Spoiler*: __ 



or am I?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I assure you the feeling is mutual:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, lets make a Orochimaru with part 1 ET vs Hebi fight Itachi thread and a Deidara vs Tsunade thread.
And see whose standing is more accurate.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Here's my list, feel free to tell me where I screwed up, these are ranked in order of with who I believe to be strongest/dangerous in each subgroup.

*Top Tier*
Obito
*Orochimaru*
Nagato/Pain
Itachi

*Mid Tier*
*Jiraiya*
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Sasori = *Tsunade*

*Low Tier*
*Hiruzen*
Konan
Hidan

I sort of went the same way Thunder went with his rankings, personally, I do believe there are some people just out of the reach of certain shinobi. For instance, it's highly unlikely that anyone from the Low Tier would even come close to defeating someone in the top tier, if restrictions to the characters were not in place.

Also, I'm not sure where to put Zetsu, he's either all the way at the top or all the way at the bottom.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Here's my list, feel free to tell me where I screwed up, these are ranked in order of with who I believe to be strongest/dangerous in each subgroup.
> 
> *Top Tier*
> Obito
> ...



This is a good list, but I gave Hiruzen his Edo feats and scaled stamina when making my approximation. (Part 2 stamina inflation.) His elemental power and versatility surpasses that of Kakuzu, as does his close range lethality when supplemented by Enma.​


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

I didn't even consider Hiruzen's Edo feats or input his stamina, wow, I'll have to go back and re-read everything. I solely based that on his fight against Orochimaru. I'll make the adjustments.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

Who claimed Hiruzen is inferior to Hidan esp. with Edo feats?


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok, lets make a Orochimaru with part 1 ET vs Hebi fight Itachi thread and a Deidara vs Tsunade thread.
> And see whose standing is more accurate.


First off this assumes character's "levels" are decided by single matches. Also you talk about making threads, yet there is already a Deidara vs Sasori thread in the NBD, and vastly more people support Sasori > Deidara, over Deidara > Sasori, yet somehow that doesn't prevent you from putting Deidara multiple places above Sasori. So to me making threads is pointless because you would never practice what you preach and actually adjust your tier list to common opinion anyway.

And I assure you more people would find it plausible that Orochimaru beats a near death Itachi, than some of your BS, like Hidan > Konan


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## Garcher (Jun 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And I assure you more people would find it plausible that Orochimaru beats a near death Itachi,



Didn't that actually happen in the manga when Itachi beat Oro within one panel?


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## Trojan (Jun 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Here's my list, feel free to tell me where I screwed up, these are ranked in order of with who I believe to be strongest/dangerous in each subgroup.
> 
> *Top Tier*
> Obito
> ...



It's all screwed up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> First off this assumes character's "levels" are decided by single matches.


Unless there is an issue of a specifically "bad match up," like Jiraiya vs Konan(Jiraiya's oil negating Konan's arsenal) It is safe to assume that single matches can decide who is stronger overall. Most people would also agree with this.



> Also you talk about making threads, yet there is already a Deidara vs Sasori thread in the NBD, and vastly more people support Sasori > Deidara, over Deidara > Sasori, yet somehow that doesn't prevent you from putting Deidara multiple places above Sasori. So to me making threads is pointless because you would never practice what you preach and actually adjust your tier list to common opinion anyway.


Its an extreme case of a bad match up imo. Deidara's most lethal asset, C4 is useless against Sasori.
But Deidara was seen as a more valuable asset to Akatsuki than Sasori in the eyes of Pain. That ensures to me that he was an overall stronger nin, which is also backed up by his feats.



> [
> And I assure you more people would find it plausible that Orochimaru beats a near death Itachi, than some of your BS, like Hidan > Konan


I am 100% confident that the majority would think that Itachi'd(who mentioned near that Itachi btw?) be able to defeat Orochimaru and the majority would think that Itachi is definitely on a higher level than Orochimaru whether he is sick or not. You can create a poll if you'r so eager to be proven wrong again lol.

I think Konan and Hidan are fairly close, both are extremely weak by Akatsuki standarts, and it wouldn't matter much whether you placed Hidan above Konan or vice versa. Circumstantialy, both of their one trick pony skillset can trump the other. 

And Itachi being stronger than Orochimaru is a well established fact @ this point. Through feats, portrayal and direct admissions of superiority. So it isn't a matter of a personal preference anymore. You are living in denial.


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless there is an issue of a specifically "bad match up," like Jiraiya vs Konan(Jiraiya's oil negating Konan's arsenal) It is safe to assume that single matches can decide who is stronger overall. Most people would also agree with this.
> .


Deidara is a bad match up for Tsunade. Tsunade is one of the few fighters in her class, that does not have a means of detecting C4. She is mostly a CQC fighter, while Deidara is a long-range specialist. Deidara has some of the best Jutsu for bypassing Tsunade's regeneration. And Deidara likely has knowledge of a legendary-sannin and Hokage like Tsunade, while she likely does not have knowledge on him. 

All Tsunade has over him is an unknown level of Raiton alteration, however w/o any feats that is only useful in the sense that she can at least produce low-quality Raiton to diffuse individual bombs.



> ts an extreme case of a bad match up imo. Deidara's most lethal asset, C4 is useless against Sasori.
> But Deidara was seen as a more valuable asset to Akatsuki than Sasori in the eyes of Pain. That ensures to me that he was an overall stronger nin, which is also backed up by his feats.


That's fanfic but okay.



> And Itachi being stronger than Orochimaru is a well established fact @ this point. Through feats, portrayal and direct admissions of superiority. So it isn't a matter of a personal preference anymore. You are living in denial.


I don't deny that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. The fact of the matter is both declined though, Orochimaru due to Shiki-Fuujin and Itachi due to Ninja-aids. While both were handicapped Itachi maintained the edge, but if you throw Orochimaru at his best [Pre-Edo Hokage] at an Itachi at his worst, I do see an upset happening. If you don't that's fine, but this is obviously a-lot more empathetic view point to anyone who is not a raving Itachi-fanbody, than the many inexcusable flaws in you tier list. And I find it hilarious that you have the gal to talk about well established facts while putting Deidara multiple places above Sasori, who was factually stated to be stronger than him.

And I'm not going to get into making threads, because you would never subscribe to general public opinion anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Deidara is a bad match up for Tsunade. Tsunade is one of the few fighters in her class, that does not have a means of detecting C4. She is mostly a CQC fighter, while Deidara is a long-range specialist. Deidara has some of the best Jutsu for bypassing Tsunade's regeneration. And Deidara likely has knowledge of a legendary-sannin and Hokage like Tsunade, while she likely does not have knowledge on him.
> 
> All Tsunade has over him is an unknown level of Raiton alteration, however w/o any feats that is only useful in the sense that she can at least produce low-quality Raiton to diffuse individual bombs.


Wait, people in the same tier don't necessarily have to have counters for each other. Like you said, we aren't talking in terms of a "match up" perspective.

Tsunade not being able to deal with c4 doesn't make Deidara a bad match up for her. There are lots of people who can't deal with C4. A bad match up is, if a person is immune to C4 or something of that nature. I don't think a low quality raiton can diffuse C4. Its like saying a C rank katon can trump FRS.

I agree that Deidara is a bad match up due to Tsunade not being able to fight from range, however thats not the reason why I think Deidara is stronger than Tsunade.



> That's fanfic but okay.


Actually its not. No one mourned Sasori's death, but Pain expressed that Deidara was special after he died. 



> I don't deny that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. The fact of the matter is both declined though, Orochimaru due to Shiki-Fuujin and Itachi due to Ninja-aids. While both were handicapped Itachi maintained the edge,* but if you throw Orochimaru at his best [Pre-Edo Hokage] at an Itachi at his worst, I do see an upset happening*.


Based on what ? 
What jutsu does Orochimaru have that Itachi can't deal with, or what jutsu does Orochimaru have which is stronger or more lethal or more advanced than Itachi's MS arsenal ? 



> If you don't that's fine, but this is obviously a-lot more empathetic view point to anyone who is not a raving Itachi-fanbody, than the many inexcusable flaws in you tier list. And I find it hilarious that you have the gal to talk about well established facts while putting Deidara multiple places above Sasori, who was factually stated to be stronger than him.


What do you mean by "multiple places."
Those standings aren't tiers. Most shinobi I've listed there have marginal difference in power .Deidara being a couple of shinobi above Sasori doesn't mean he is couple of times stronger.
I'd actually rate them fairly close. 



> And I'm not going to get into making threads, because you would never subscribe to general public opinion anyway.


I'm speaking based on experience.
So far I've only seen a handful of people who claimed that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi. 
Not that a poll is needed to establish that Itachi is stronger, because manga had already established it, like I already mentioned, but it would further illustrate my point.


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wait, people in the same tier don't necessarily have to have counters for each other. Like you said, we aren't talking in terms of a "match up" perspective.


Agreed hence, me pointing out Deidara is a bad match up for Tsunade.



> Tsunade not being able to deal with c4 doesn't make Deidara a bad match up for her. There are lots of people who can't deal with C4. A bad match up is, if a person is immune to C4 or something of that nature.


And I disagree, I think most shinobi in Tsunade's class can deal with C4. So at that point you ether need to make the argument that Tsunade is on a lower-class or she is simply ill suited to dealing with the Jutsu.



> I don't think a low quality raiton can diffuse C4. Its like saying a C rank katon can trump FRS.


CO > C4. Omoi's low quality raiton diffused CO. ??? . Profit



> I agree that Deidara is a bad match up due to Tsunade not being able to fight from range, however thats not the reason why I think Deidara is stronger than Tsunade.


Than what is the point in making a Deidara vs Tsunade thread, as you earlier suggested 



> Actually its not. No one mourned Sasori's death, but Pain expressed that Deidara was special after he died.


We didn't see Pain after Sasori's death, so we don't know. That is why it's fanfiction.



> Based on what ?
> What jutsu does Orochimaru have that Itachi can't deal with, or what jutsu does Orochimaru have which is stronger or more lethal or more advanced than Itachi's MS arsenal ?


Itachi can deal with all of Orochimaru's Jutsu, but the problem is he doesn't have enough juice to deal with them and exposes openings he normally wouldn't, which will be his downfall in the fight.



> What do you mean by "multiple places."
> Those standings aren't tiers. Most shinobi I've listed there have marginal difference in power .Deidara being a couple of shinobi above Sasori doesn't mean he is couple of times stronger.
> I'd actually rate them fairly close.


This is irrelevant. You complain to me about facts, yet put Deidara above Sasori. I don't really care if your places are broad or narrow, the fact of the matter is if you want to play the facts card, you should have Sasori above Deidara. 



> I'm speaking based on experience.
> So far I've only seen a handful of people who claimed that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi.
> Not that a poll is needed to establish that Itachi is stronger, because manga had already established it, like I already mentioned, but it would further illustrate my point.


Grimjow for the 50th time. 

I'm not claiming Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi, i'm saying that Itachi with significant handicaps is weaker than Orochimaru w/o any. 

So please stop with that straw-man.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Agreed hence, me pointing out Deidara is a bad match up for Tsunade.


Fair enough.



> And I disagree, I think most shinobi in Tsunade's class can deal with C4. So at that point you ether need to make the argument that Tsunade is on a lower-class or she is simply ill suited to dealing with the Jutsu.


I think Tsunade is simply on a lower class. She lacks versatility(combat-wise) to be on the level you'r suggesting her to be.
Deidara is just one example.



> CO > C4. Omoi's low quality raiton diffused CO. ??? . Profit


Then why did Sasuke run a chidori through his body, if running raiton flow through a weapon(which requires some sort of a proficiency, given samurai were surprised that Sasuke was able to do it, meaning it wasn't a generic fodder ability) is the same as running it through your body ? 



> Than what is the point in making a Deidara vs Tsunade thread, as you earlier suggested



I agree, it wasn't the best way of establishing who was superior, but perhaps the only way we can in battledome.

And to be fair, it isn't like Deidara is a perfect counter to Tsunade. Deidara isn't the only person Tsunade will face in the battlefield who fights from a long range. And if we assume anyone who is capable of fighting from a long range is a bad match up against Tsunade, then we have to assume nearly every shinobi outside CQC specialists are a bad match up against Tsunade.



> *We didn't see Pain after Sasori's death*, so we don't know. That is why it's fanfiction.


Exactly. If Kishimoto thought it was worth noting, he simply would. Just like how Zetsu was awed @ Itachi and Pain's loss after they fought their big battles.
He took his time to note Deidara's value, something he didn't do for Sasori. 

There is also fact that Sasori was defeated by much weaker people than the ones Deidara fought. 



> Itachi can deal with all of Orochimaru's Jutsu, but the problem is he doesn't have enough juice to deal with them and exposes openings he normally wouldn't, which will be his downfall in the fight.


All of Itachi's high end techniques far exceed Orochimaru's capabilities and have the potential to make very short work of him, namely Tsukiyomi and Susano'O.
I think you'r assuming that Orochimaru can magically fight without eye contact while he somehow keesp his distance from a faster opponent all the time.



> This is irrelevant. You complain to me about facts, yet put Deidara above Sasori. I don't really care if your places are broad or narrow, the fact of the matter is if you want to play the facts card, you should have Sasori above Deidara.


It is relevant, because you complained about the fact that they had multiple people in between them.  I am just saying that the number of the people in between them doesn't point towards a gap.  I can only seperate Akatsuki into 3 tiers. Sannin would fit right in the middle, Jiraiya possibly taking the top and Tsuande being the bottom(among sannin).

Itachi / Pain / Obito 
Kisame / Deidara / Sasori / Kakuzu - Place Sannin in this tier
Hidan / Konan / Zetsu



> Grimjow for the 50th time.
> I'm not claiming Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi, i'm saying that Itachi with significant handicaps is weaker than Orochimaru w/o any.
> So please stop with that straw-man.



How is this straw man ? 
Author made it very clear that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. I'm pretty sure he knows his characters better than you do and he wouldn't change his mind after he hears your "interpretation" about how handicapped Itachi was.

Seriously, Itachi with illness can still use his trump cards for a considerable about of time, to the extend that he can basically outlast Hebi Sasuke, who has Orochimaru's regen and has statistically higher stamina than Itach, while holding back.
Let that sink in.
Itachi basically depleted Sasuke's chakra completely before even Susano'O came into play.
Sasuke has the same amount of chakra Orochimaru has, statistically.

There is no fucking way Orochimaru is outlasting Sick Itachi.

Whats part 1 ET gonna accomplish ? Itachi seals them with totsuka with 2 swings, even hiruzen with his shitty physical stats was able to tag them.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Tsunade is simply on a lower class. She lacks versatility(combat-wise) to be on the level you'r suggesting her to be.
> Deidara is just one example.


Here you say Tsunade is on a lower tier than Deidara, but you literally say Tsunade is on the same tier as Deidara later in this post. 



> Then why did Sasuke run a chidori through his body, if running raiton flow through a weapon(which requires some sort of a proficiency, given samurai were surprised that Sasuke was able to do it, meaning it wasn't a generic fodder ability) is the same as running it through your body


Because Chidori is Sasuke's basic goto Raiton technique. I mean even his generic raiton through sword is called Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Chidorigatana, rather than just raiton flow. So all of his raiton techniques are just Chidori based. Clearly he did not use Chidori in the sense of it being it's normal piercing attack there, as otherwise he'd have a hole in his chest.



> I agree, it wasn't the best way of establishing who was superior, but perhaps the only way we can in battledome.


We can put them against many different match ups in the BD



> And to be fair, it isn't like Deidara is a perfect counter to Tsunade. Deidara isn't the only person Tsunade will face in the battlefield who fights from a long range. And if we assume anyone who is capable of fighting from a long range is a bad match up against Tsunade, then we have to assume nearly every shinobi outside CQC specialists are a bad match up against Tsunade.


There really aren't many Long-Range specialist that pack the fire-power to completely disregard Tsunade's tankability with medical regen techniques. Beyond that like I said Tsunade is one of the few on her "level" who hasn't shown a pretty solid counter to C4. All these things combined make Deidara poor match up for her. 



> Exactly. If Kishimoto thought it was worth noting, he simply would. Just like how Zetsu was awed @ Itachi and Pain's loss after they fought their big battles.
> He took his time to note Deidara's value, something he didn't do for Sasori.


Kishi didn't have to go out of his way to do so, as he had already hyped Sasori far more than Pain simply mentioning Deidara was a good member. To go out of his way to draw an entire Akatsuki scene just to show Pain say something about Sasori would be redundant and unnecessary. But it's funny you bring up this point, because I just finished translating some of Sasori's entry in DB4, and Kishi does single him out there as a genius among the Akatsuki:

"The genius Akatsuki who passed away first once destroyed a country with his ability to operate 100 puppet-bodies"



> There is also fact that Sasori was defeated by much weaker people than the ones Deidara fought.


Was this before or after he had his ass raped by Fodder Ambush-Squad, despite being at his absolute strongest and having back up. 



> All of Itachi's high end techniques far exceed Orochimaru's capabilities and have the potential to make very short work of him, namely Tsukiyomi and Susano'O.
> I think you'r assuming that Orochimaru can magically fight without eye contact while he somehow keesp his distance from a faster opponent all the time.


Orochimaru can it's called the Snake Detection Kabuto used, Leech all Creation, and summons [Edo-Tensei and Mass Snakes]. Those three things would enable Orochimaru to keep his distance from Itachi while barraging him with techniques and summons that would require Itachi's MS Jutsu to counter, and from there Itachi ether dies from the strain or he exposes an opening which causes him to loose.



> t is relevant, because you complained about the fact that they had multiple people in between them. I am just saying that the number of the people in between them doesn't point towards a gap. I can only seperate Akatsuki into 3 tiers. Sannin would fit right in the middle, Jiraiya possibly taking the top and Tsuande being the bottom(among sannin).


If the numbers don't indicate one is better than the other, if only slightly, than there is no point to numbering them, and it's no ones fault but your own that your tier-list comes off so nonsensical looking to someone whose reading it. Mabye next time throw out an in any order disclaimer or something. 

But if you really were going with facts and considered Sasori > Deidara, you wouldn't be arguing the above points anyway. So ether way you are arguing against facts.



> Author made it very clear that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. I'm pretty sure he knows his characters better than you do and he wouldn't change his mind after he hears your "interpretation" about how handicapped Itachi was.


It's a straw-man because Itachi being clearly stronger than Orochimaru, doesn't mean Itachi handicapped would still win against Orochimaru not handicapped. That's like saying the author said Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru, so even if Itachi has his eyes ripped out and all his limbs chopped off before facing Orochimaru he's still stronger and going to win. It's silly and stupid, and you know this.

So when you say I'm arguing against Itachi > Orochimaru, it's a straw-man because i'm not. I'm arguing that any character can be handicapped enough to loose to a character they were otherwise stronger than, Itachi being no exception to that.



> Seriously, Itachi with illness can still use his trump cards for a considerable about of time, to the extend that he can basically outlast Hebi Sasuke, who has Orochimaru's regen and has statistically higher stamina than Itach, while holding back.
> Let that sink in.
> Itachi basically depleted Sasuke's chakra completely before even Susano'O came into play.
> Sasuke has the same amount of chakra Orochimaru has, statistically.


That is because Hebi-Sasuke was much weaker than Orochimaru at full power. 




> Whats part 1 ET gonna accomplish ? Itachi seals them with totsuka with 2 swings, even hiruzen with his shitty physical stats was able to tag them.


First off Orochimaru can summon 3, and 3 swings and sealings worth of S4 Susano'o would leave Itachi near death, given how much using MS fucked his day up during the Hebi-Sasuke fight. Than let's also throw Manda or ORochimaru's Mandara no Jin at his ass both of which require Amaterasu or Susano'o to take care of, and by then Itachi is pretty much dead, or at least in no shape to sustain S4-Susano'o to take on Yamata no Orochi. And this is assuming he doesn't loose Susano'o and expose an opening when he's coughing up blood mid way through the battle.


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Part 1 Orochimaru can only summon two Edo Tensei.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 7, 2015)

He tried to summon three and failed only because Minato was sealed inside Shinigami's belly. So he is capable of summoning at least three at once. Not that it would help him against Itachi...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here you say Tsunade is on a lower tier than Deidara, but you literally say Tsunade is on the same tier as Deidara later in this post.
> [


I'm talking about the class of shinobi which you think can deal with C4. She is lower than that, whoever they are. And by class I didn't mean tier, just she is overall weaker than them.



> Because Chidori is Sasuke's basic goto Raiton technique. I mean even his generic raiton through sword is called Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Chidorigatana, rather than just raiton flow. So all of his raiton techniques are just Chidori based. Clearly he did not use Chidori in the sense of it being it's normal piercing attack there, as otherwise he'd have a hole in his chest.


Again, Sasuke is a very proficient raiton user, most likely the most versatile one as well. Why would he hit himself with a technique that is potentially very harmful, instead of simply running raiton through his body, like he does with his blade.
He certainly has the capability of using Raiton in many different ways.



> We can put them against many different match ups in the BD


Sure but then how many match ups would it take to reach a certain norm, with of course taking match-up specifics into account.
It is really hard. 
Unless there is an extreme case, like genjutsu immunity vs a genjutsu user, I think if X can defeat Y, it is safe to assume X is stronger.



> There really aren't many Long-Range specialist that pack the fire-power to completely disregard Tsunade's tankability with medical regen techniques. Beyond that like I said Tsunade is one of the few on her "level" who hasn't shown a pretty solid counter to C4. All these things combined make Deidara poor match up for her.


Again I don't think there is a requirement for a solid counter against C4. She doesn't have a solid counter for Tsukiyomi, is Itachi also a bad match up against anyone who doesn't have a solid counter against it ? 

The thing with Tsunade is, she lacks versatility. She is one of the least versatile shinobi around Kage tier and even among CQC specialists.
In that sense, most people she'll face feel like a bad match up, because they can either kite her around, or simply hit her from a mid-long range while staying out of her effective range.

Actually when I think about it, probably there are only a handful of shinobi who aren't a bad match up against her.



> Kishi didn't have to go out of his way to do so, as he had already hyped Sasori far more than Pain simply mentioning Deidara was a good member. To go out of his way to draw an entire Akatsuki scene just to show Pain say something about Sasori would be redundant and unnecessary. But it's funny you bring up this point, because I just finished translating some of Sasori's entry in DB4, and Kishi does single him out there as a genius among the Akatsuki:


I think if Kishimoto thought he was worth it, then it wouldn't be redundant at all.
Sasori was pretty underwhelming, considering the power of the opponents he lost to.
It wouldn't make much sense if Pain talked about his value.



> "The genius Akatsuki who passed away first once destroyed a country with his ability to operate 100 puppet-bodies"


Do you want to dig out how many shinobi were called "genius" in the databook ? 



> Was this before or after he had his ass raped by Fodder Ambush-Squad, despite being at his absolute strongest and having back up.


You either have to accept that it was plot or that Sai is stronger than Hebi Sasuke, given he defeated Deidara and Sasori together in 1 move.
I'm fine with either one of them.



> Orochimaru can it's called the Snake Detection Kabuto used,


What snake detection ? Why hasn't Orochimaru shown that ability ? 



> Leech all Creation


How is he casting techniques when he is using that ability ? 



> , and summons [Edo-Tensei and Mass Snakes]. Those three things would enable Orochimaru to keep his distance from Itachi while barraging him with techniques and summons that would require Itachi's MS Jutsu to counter, and from there Itachi ether dies from the strain or he exposes an opening which causes him to loose.


Lol'd @ all the vagueass shit.
What does Orochimaru have that'll force Itachi to use MS ? Itachi is faster, btw, alot. He is also smarter and more tactical and he reads his opponents like a book.
He is going to catch Orochimaru and kill him. 
I repeat, Orochimaru isn't kiting a superior fighter.



> If the numbers don't indicate one is better than the other, if only slightly, than there is no point to numbering them, and it's no ones fault but your own that your tier-list comes off so nonsensical looking to someone whose reading it. Mabye next time throw out an in any order disclaimer or something.


Umm you didn't get me. I didn't say numbers don't indicate anything.
I said the number of shinobi in between them don't indicate anything in this case, because people in between them are in the same tier.

Let me simplfy this for you.

I think Deidara's power level is 100 And Sasori is 90
So even if I put 9 people in between them(going from 91 to 99), the gap in their strength is marginal.




> But if you really were going with facts and considered Sasori > Deidara, you wouldn't be arguing the above points anyway. So ether way you are arguing against facts.


Sasori being stronger than Deidara is not a fact.



> It's a straw-man because Itachi being clearly stronger than Orochimaru, doesn't mean Itachi handicapped would still win against Orochimaru not handicapped. That's like saying the author said Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru, so even if Itachi has his eyes ripped out and all his limbs chopped off before facing Orochimaru he's still stronger and going to win. It's silly and stupid, and you know this.



So you'r saying that Kishimoto wasn't aware of Itachi's illness, and he never took that into consideration when he made it clear that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru ? 

Oh ok. No. 



> So when you say I'm arguing against Itachi > Orochimaru, it's a straw-man because i'm not. I'm arguing that any character can be handicapped enough to loose to a character they were otherwise stronger than, Itachi being no exception to that.


No one is handicapped here.
Unless you assume Itachi's illness was a handicap that Kishimoto didn't take into consideration.



> That is because Hebi-Sasuke was much weaker than Orochimaru at full power.


Wait what ? 
Ok, you can argue that Hebi Sasuke being weaker(which doesn't make much sense tho) but how is he *much* weaker ? 



> First off Orochimaru can summon 3, and 3 swings and sealings worth of S4 Susano'o would leave Itachi near death


, 
What ? Itachi was near death when he brought out Susano'O because he was already wounded and exhausted.
Also Itachi cut down 6 heads of Yamata no Orochi in one swing. 
So let me correct my self. 
He needs 0.5 swings for 3 people




> given how much using MS fucked his day up during the Hebi-Sasuke fight. Than let's also throw Manda or ORochimaru's Mandara no Jin at his ass both of which require Amaterasu or Susano'o to take care of, and by then Itachi is pretty much dead, or at least in no shape to sustain S4-Susano'o to take on Yamata no Orochi. And this is assuming he doesn't loose Susano'o and expose an opening when he's coughing up blood mid way through the battle.



Itachi dispatched Yamata no jutsu in a matter of seconds, which is said to be stronger than Manda in the databook. Manda won't take a nick of Itachi's time. Itachi can actually control it like Sasuke did, he doesn't even need MS to get rid of Manda. 

The notion that Manda gives Itachi trouble ...


Your whole argument hinges on the fact that Itachi somehow wastes 2 Amaterasu shots and a Tsukiyomi, as well as other stuf and Orochimaru is perfectly fine at that point and Itachi has no choice but to use Susano'o and collapses and dies before he can kill Orochimaru.

I just realized how twisted your perception of this whole thing is. You've discarded all logic in one paragraph.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm talking about the class of shinobi which you think can deal with C4. She is lower than that, whoever they are. And by class I didn't mean tier, just she is overall weaker than them.
> .


If nearly everyone on her tier other than her is much more prepared to handle C4, I consider that a bad match up. Regardless of whether she is low, mid, or high on that Tier.

The only way it would not fall under the realm of match up is if Tsunade was of an inferior "tier".




> Again, Sasuke is a very proficient raiton user, most likely the most versatile one as well. Why would he hit himself with a technique that is potentially very harmful, instead of simply running raiton through his body, like he does with his blade.
> He certainly has the capability of using Raiton in many different ways.


As I said last post even when he use raiton to charge his blade he calls it Chidori. So he just uses Chidori.



> Sure but then how many match ups would it take to reach a certain norm, with of course taking match-up specifics into account.
> It is really hard.
> Unless there is an extreme case, like genjutsu immunity vs a genjutsu user, I think if X can defeat Y, it is safe to assume X is stronger.


However many characters you consider on that "tier" would be the number of match ups. As far as hard goes, we've all be on the forum for years and we're still at it, so we have had more than enough time to consider all these different match ups and have even more time to do so. So I don't think it's that hard for us to do.



> Again I don't think there is a requirement for a solid counter against C4. She doesn't have a solid counter for Tsukiyomi, is Itachi also a bad match up against anyone who doesn't have a solid counter against it ?


She actually does have a solid counter for Tsukuyomi as she's healed the effects of it before, therefore if Sousou Saisei or Sousou Saisei Byakugo are activated when she's hit she'll recover.

But to answer your overall question, it would only be a bad match up if nearly everyone on Tsunade's tier is much more prepared to handle Tsukuyomi than her. So if you wish to argue nearly everyone on Tsunade's "Tier" is likely to counter Tsukuyomi, except Tsunade, than you could argue match up.



> The thing with Tsunade is, she lacks versatility. She is one of the least versatile shinobi around Kage tier and even among CQC specialists.
> In that sense, most people she'll face feel like a bad match up, because they can either kite her around, or simply hit her from a mid-long range while staying out of her effective range.


I'm pretty sure your one of the people who rates Ei highly and he is much less versatile than Tsunade.



> I think if Kishimoto thought he was worth it, then it wouldn't be redundant at all.
> Sasori was pretty underwhelming, considering the power of the opponents he lost to.
> It wouldn't make much sense if Pain talked about his value.


Kishi had just finished hyping Sasori as being able to defeat the Kazekage who towered above the others in strength, soloing a country, being stronger than Deidara, and would have still won despite the numerous disadvantages he had against Chiyo + Sakura, if not for allowing himself to be hit. To waste panel time having an entire Akatsuki scene just to have Pain bemoan Sasori's loss is superfluous at that point. 

The point being is, your argument basically amount to the same thing as me saying, well Kishi never hyped Deidara could solo a country so he's weaker than Sasori and Orochimaru who were hyped this way. And than when you say he was hyped other ways I would just say well Kishi would have given him the hype if he thought he was stronger. Simply put your over valuing one piece of hype while ignoring the whole picture. As a whole Sasori was much more hyped than Deidara.



> Do you want to dig out how many shinobi were called "genius" in the databook ?


Besides Sasori, I can only recall Orochimaru and Itachi as the other Akatsuki highlighted for their Genius, but I admit it's been a long time since I've read all the Akatsuki entries of DBIII, so feel free to cite some for me.



> You either have to accept that it was plot or that Sai is stronger than Hebi Sasuke, given he defeated Deidara and Sasori together in 1 move.
> I'm fine with either one of them.


Actually I don't, because there is a thing called circumstance. Deidara lost to it here like Sasori "lost" to it against Sakura and Chiyo. Only difference being that Deidara's circumstances were much less difficult than Sasori's, and he was powered up, yet still lost. Which yet again shows the gap between them. 



> hat snake detection ? Why hasn't Orochimaru shown that ability ?


Apparently he showed the ability to Sasuke:
this



> How is he casting techniques when he is using that ability ?


He uses that ability to gain distance, and than casts techniques and resumes using that ability.



> What does Orochimaru have that'll force Itachi to use MS ? Itachi is faster, btw, alot. He is also smarter and more tactical and he reads his opponents like a book.
> He is going to catch Orochimaru and kill him.
> I repeat, Orochimaru isn't kiting a superior fighter.


Boss Summons, Madara no Jin, Yamata no Orochi, Edo-Tensei. Those are the things that will force MS.



> I think Deidara's power level is 100 And Sasori is 90
> So even if I put 9 people in between them(going from 91 to 99), the gap in their strength is marginal.


And you don't get me. That is still factually incorrect as the manga tells us Sasori is stronger.



> asori being stronger than Deidara is not a fact.


Than Itachi being stronger than Orochimaru is not a fact 



> So you'r saying that Kishimoto wasn't aware of Itachi's illness, and he never took that into consideration when he made it clear that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru ?


No i'm saying Kishi never made it clear that Hebi-Sasuke Fight 1 foot in the grave Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru at his best. All Kishi made clear is the following:

Orochimaru stated and was shown to be weaker than Itachi, when he left Akatsuki but. presumably Itachi was healthy or at least much healthier back then. Than Orochimaru said after having his arms ripped out by Shiki Fuujin that Itachi was stronger than him presently. Presumable Itachi was a bit less healthy at the time he came to Konoha in P1, but Orochimaru also had his arms ripped out by then. And than in PII Sasuke states nether him nor Orochimaru could beat Itachi and Itachi was much more ill then,  but by then Orochimaru had both body failure and the return of shiki Fuujin's effects to deal with.

Simply put we are told Itachi is stronger at three times, back in day when speculatively they were both at their best [prior to PII Edos] and two times when they were both disadvantage. Never was it stated that Itachi at his worst was still stronger than Orochimaru at his best.



> Ok, you can argue that Hebi Sasuke being weaker(which doesn't make much sense tho) but how is he much weaker ?


Because he's inferior to Orochimaru is nearly every conceivable way.



> What ? Itachi was near death when he brought out Susano'O because he was already wounded and exhausted.
> Also Itachi cut down 6 heads of Yamata no Orochi in one swing.
> So let me correct my self.
> He needs 0.5 swings for 3 people


Itachi can't seal six individuals at once however. So sure he could cut the Edo-Tensei in half in one swing, but they'd simply reform. He needs to seal each of them individually and that takes some time as was displayed when he sealed Edo-Nagato. By the time he's finished sealing 3 Tensei, sick Itachi will be on the ground coughing up blood. Your undermining how much using Susano'o fucked Itachi's day up.



> Itachi dispatched Yamata no jutsu in a matter of seconds, which is said to be stronger than Manda in the databook. Manda won't take a nick of Itachi's time. Itachi can actually control it like Sasuke did, he doesn't even need MS to get rid of Manda.


Manda will take time to seal, just like the Edos.



> Your whole argument hinges on the fact that Itachi somehow wastes 2 Amaterasu shots and a Tsukiyomi, as well as other stuf and Orochimaru is perfectly fine at that point and Itachi has no choice but to use Susano'o and collapses and dies before he can kill Orochimaru.


No my argument hinges on the fact that Itachi does not have the stamina and would expose two many opening to win this fight. It has nothing to do with what specifically he'd use.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If nearly everyone on her tier other than her is much more prepared to handle C4, I consider that a bad match up. Regardless of whether she is low, mid, or high on that Tier.
> 
> The only way it would not fall under the realm of match up is if Tsunade was of an inferior "tier".
> 
> ...




You are blatantly contradicting the manga @ this point, there is no reason to continue this any further, as my argument is only supported by the manga that you choose to ignore. So I'll leave those parts out.

You can chose not to reply to these of course.

* Deidara was also called genius in the databook. 





> Picture Caption: This genius was the one who invented a form of art that can fly.


I'm not going to look for the raw, you can do it yourself.

* Deidara can also take down a country, arguably easier than Sasori can, given his AOE arsenal. I think Deidara taking Gaara in his own turf and showing the capability of destroying sand village is more impressive than sasori soloing an unknown country off panel.

* Tsunade healed Tsukiyomi victims under unknown circumstances. We have no idea how long it took her to do so, or what she used.
But obviously a doctor healing a comatosed patient can't heal himself in the same state, so don't expect me to take that argument seriously.

* Itachi doesn't need to seal Manda, as Totsua can also be used to inflict physical damage that can kill it.  Also like I already mentioned Itachi can control him with sharingan as well.

* Sasuke & Itachi were referring to the giant Snakes, for having the infrared vision, not Kabuto. Kabuto also isn't Orochimaru. More like Orochimaru on steroids.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are blatantly contradicting the manga @ this point, there is no reason to continue this any further, as my argument is only supported by the manga that you choose to ignore. So I'll leave those parts out.
> .





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Deidara's power level is 100 And Sasori is 90






Fact of the matter is there is no statement that says Itachi at his worst would beat Orochimaru at his best, so i'm not contradicting anything. There is a statement that says Sasori > Deidara, which you are contradicting.



> Deidara was also called genius in the databook.


Cool his hype is still dwarfed by Sasori's and that is still Kishi singling Sasori out in comparison to other Akatsuki, which is what you asked for.



> Deidara can also take down a country, arguably easier than Sasori can, given his AOE arsenal. I think Deidara taking Gaara in his own turf and showing the capability of destroying sand village is more impressive than sasori soloing an unknown country off panel.


And I also think Sasori is more valuable to Akatsuki than Deidara. Hence my point about evaluating a characters entire worth by whether they have one specific piece of hype is silly and ridiculous. Their entire hype should be evaluated as a collective, but you don't want to do that because you know Sasori's hype blows Deidara's away as a collective.

I also don't think you understand Sasori's hype of soloing a country. It's not just that he solo'd a country, but that merely one of his Jutsu solo'd a country, which has has the capacity to use multiple times. 



> Tsunade healed Tsukiyomi victims under unknown circumstances. We have no idea how long it took her to do so, or what she used.
> But obviously a doctor healing a comatosed patient can't heal himself in the same state, so don't expect me to take that argument seriously


No Idea 

Tsunade literally put's her hand on his head and uses regular Shosen and than says he'll wake up soon:
works too.

Than a page later he's shown awake. 

So we know she used regular shosen and we know it took an extremely brief period of time. If she has Sousou Saisei or Sousou Saisei Byakugo activated which is vastly superior to Shosen, it should take even less time and accomplish the same thing

And I don't expect you to take any argument involving Itachi that doesn't result in Itachi one-shots seriously, as it's long established how bias you are.



> Itachi doesn't need to seal Manda, as Totsua can also be used to inflict physical damage that can kill it. Also like I already mentioned Itachi can control him with sharingan as well.


Cool it will still take Itachi time to cut down manda and other boss sized snakes. Maybe a brief period of time, but even that is a huge deal when using MS fucks Itachi day up so bad.



> asuke & Itachi were referring to the giant Snakes, for having the infrared vision, not Kabuto.


Yeah and Orochimaru can summon those snakes and use them to detect the enemy same as Kabuto did. Orochimaru can also use Kage-Bushin or Doton while relying on the typical Doton sensing. There is a-lot of options open to Orochimaru.


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## NarutoIndra (Jun 16, 2015)

Right above Hidan.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Deidara was mourned by Pain.

Deidara's jutsu was called completely terrifying by Obito.

Sasori was afforded no respects like that.


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

Deidara admitted Sasori was stronger. End.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 16, 2015)

So that Kakashi'd help Sakura and Chiyo and Deidara could isolate Naruto.


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## Matty (Jun 16, 2015)

Obito/Nagato
Itachi
*Oro*
*Jiraiya*
Sasori
*Tsunade*
Kisame
*Hiruzen*
Deidara/Kakuzu/Konan
Zetsu
Hidan


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 16, 2015)

Pain/Itachi
Obito
---large gap---
SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei (P1)
Kisame (power fluctuates with the type of opponent he's facing)
---moderate gap---
Byakugou Tsunade 
Sasori 
Deidara 
Kakuzu
Old Hiruzen
---large gap---
Konan (strongest technique relies on preparation)
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Deidara admitted Sasori was stronger. End.



Like when Naruto said he needed Kurama to beat MS Sasuke.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 16, 2015)

Obito
Pein
Itachi
*Sannin*
Everyone else

Hiruzen is below everyone but Hidan.​​


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like when Naruto said he needed Kurama to beat MS Sasuke.



are u implying SM Naruto could beat MS sasuke? been done before 

if KCM Naruto who admits he is much stronger than his MS self seems to warn bee about things such as amaterasu and tskuyomi 

then yh SM Naruto would loose to MS sasuke 

only chance COFRS but sadly would just be turned into enton which helps sasuke


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> are u implying SM Naruto could beat MS sasuke?



Yeah, I'm implying that.​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 16, 2015)

2. *Orochimaru(Edo Tensei)*- While a genius in his own right one of the strongest Konoha has ever produced the reason he is the 2nd strongest is for one technique the legendary Edo Tensei, with the power of this S rank jutsu histories most powerful forces bow to Orochimaru . The only reason he isn't first is because of Obitos frankly overpowered abilities.

3. *Nagato Uzumaki*- Another one of the few that have awakened the Rinnegan and all of the associated power and hax that comes along with it, a man trained by one of the legendary Sannin. Could only be stopped by the combined might of KCM Naruto, Kirabi, and Edo Tensei Itachi.

4. *Itachi Uchiha*- The man that made the God of Shinobi himself admit inferiority to, one of the biggest prodigies the Uchiha have produced since Madara himself, a man hyped to be closest to the ideal shinobi and hokage. To be fair Itachi and Nagato are fairly equal and their spots can be interchanged whenever.

5. *Jiraiya*- The Toad Sage and teacher of some of the most finest shinobi Konoha has ever produced like The Yellow Flash and The New Flash Naruto Uzumaki, The man that had Nagatos puppets admit they wouldn't win against him if he had full knowledge. The only thing holding him back was his inability to completely master Sage Mode which might have made his power increase to even greater heights.

6. *Tsunade Senju*- The Medical God of the Narutoverse and grandaughter of the God of Shinobi himself and part of the legendary Sannin, Tsunade proved her might when she could even crack Madara's Sussano.

7. *Sasori of Red Sands*- The puppet lord of Akatsuki that has an absolute kill poison that took the apprentice of the Medical God to counteract and was even confident of taking on Orochimaru himself 1 on 1.

8. *Kisame Hoshigaki*- The strongest of the 7 swordsman of Mist with the strongest sword in the world Samehada was able to beat the immensely strong Kirabi, and forced Might Gai to the 7th Gate and still took Hirudora without dying.

9. *Deidara*- The Mad Bomber Genius himself who was also the youngest member of Akatsuki who was able to to take Hebi Sasuke to the breaking point, and felt confident that he would have beat Orochimaru if Sasuke didn't take him over. Lower then Sasori because of his admitted inferiority to him.

10. *Old Hiruzen Sarutobi* - A man who trained all three of the legendary Sannin and was reportedly one of the strongest shinobi Konoha has ever produced, but his old self lost much of his power being toyed with by Orochimaru and only showing average elemental attacks because of his lack of chakra in his old age.

11. *Kakuzu* - The man that fought the God of Shinobi and lived to tell the tale, with six hearts and most of the elements at his disposal Kakuzu is not a force to be reckoned with, him and Sarutobi are pretty equal and the only thing that pushed Sarutobi above was Shiki Fujin.

12. *Konan, Hidan*- Both of these shinobi while way stronger then your average ninja are on a completely different lower level of strength and are arguably not even S ranked at all.


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## Ersa (Jun 16, 2015)

> *Orochimaru*: That all would not have been necessary if we had been able to rope in Uchiha Itachi from the beginning... But that dream has died...He is stronger than I.



If you take Deidara's statement then this also applies.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara was mourned by Pain.



I'm so tired of this. Literally all Pain says in the Raw is that compared to Tobi who is easily replaced Deidara's loss is regrettable. He doesn't even distinguish Deidara as more special than any other Akatsuki member besides Tobi. 



> Deidara's jutsu was called completely terrifying by Obito.
> Sasori was afforded no respects like that.


What are you smoking. Sasori ability to create human puppets was hyped to the moon. Satetsu was hyped as the strongest weapon in Sunagakuru. His other Jutsu was hyped as powerful enough to bring down an entire country. All of these things are much more hype than Obito's off hand comment about Deidara's Jutsu being dreadful.

Sasori's hype blows Deidara's away, no contest.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 16, 2015)

Was it not Deidara himself that admitted direct inferiority to Sasori, I mean you could say it was just him showing sign of respect to his senpai, but in every other case in Akatsuki the "senior" member Was Superior to the "junior" member.

Itachi and Kisame- Kisame admits inferiority perfectly acceptable

Nagato and Konan- Konan admits inferiority perfectly acceptable

Kakuzu and Hidan- Neither concedes inferiority but Hidan is clearly a weakling

Sasori and Deidara- Deidara concedes inferiority Kishi ima have to call BS, like what? it seems pretty cut and dry to me...

Hell Diedaras best attack that doesn't kill himself is useless on Sasori that right there should tell you something.


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