# Jack vs doflamingo



## mr sean66 (Dec 27, 2016)

Jack vs Doflamingo

No restrictions fight is in marineford, starting 50 meters away from eachother, who wins?

Scenario 2: Jack vs Zoro+ sanji

Scenario 3: Jack vs Sanji, Smoker, Vergo and Bastille


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## whatsausername (Dec 27, 2016)

don't know much about jack other then the fact he's currently the only guy worth 1 billion berries. from showings i would say doffy, but from hype i would go with jack. jack easily wins scenario 2, but would struggle with scenario 3.


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## xmysticgohanx (Dec 27, 2016)

Scenario: Jack is weaker than doffy. He's doomed to be beat by the almighty Zoro or that one dude named Law.

He also got one shot by zunisha who's weaker than Kaido. Zoro, Law, Luffy etc aren't one shottable by top tiers anymore.

Scenario 2: Sanji isn't needed

Scenario 3: team wins.

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## zoro (Dec 27, 2016)

I'd say he's at least equal to Cracker whom I view as slightly superior to Doffy. So Jack wins. A Fishman with a mammoth Zoan in hybrid form will hit at least as hard as base G4 moves, I'd bet my set on that. His main problem is probably speed, he doesn't strike me as the fast type at all, but he should be a monster tank. I'll say extreme diff until we get more from Jack

S2: Sanji with his current feats will go down after a couple of hits and then it's GG Zoro. Some degree of high difficulty

S3: Smoker and Vergo are the only "threats". Smoker could win with the jutte but since Vergo broke through it quite easily I wouldn't bet on that since Jack should have a way better haki mastery. Vergo is fast and resilient but he won't put down someone who could tango with the minks for five days without rest. Sanji and Bastille go down quickly. Very quickly

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## Gohara (Dec 27, 2016)

1. It can go either way.  Lord Jack is likely => Lord Cracker, who has similar portrayal as Doflamingo.

2. I would lean towards Sanji and Zoro winning.  Zoro can likely individually give Lord Jack at least around or close to high difficulty.  Sanji would give the team the edge.

3. Smoker, Sanji, Vergo, and Bastille win with high to extremely high difficulty.  Lord Jack is more powerful than any of them individually but most of them can likely at least somewhat hold their own against Lord Jack individually.  If they use the best strategies I can see them winning.

Of course, this is all just IMO.

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## MYJC (Dec 27, 2016)

1. Jack probably high diff, mainly due to bounty/portrayal. 

2. Extreme diff either way

3. Jack high diff. Bastille is fodder and if Doffy was able to fodderize Smoker and Sanji, Jack should be able to as well. Although there's a chance Smoker could catch Jack with his jutte if they have a good strategy.


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## barreltheif (Dec 27, 2016)

They're around the same level, but Doffy will win. He can take to the sky, and Jack has no way of hitting him. It'll be hard for Doffy to put him down or knock him into the ocean. But when you're as versatile as Doffy, and you can hit your opponent and they have no way at all of hitting you, it's only a matter of time before you win.

Jack beats the two teams. Of all of them, only Zoro has the offense needed against Jack, but Zoro still isn't enough to beat him.


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## Amol (Dec 28, 2016)

Jack high diffs in all three sceneries.
Consult @Gyro post for explanation.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Dec 28, 2016)

scenario 3: a loss for Jack can happen, primarily due to numbers combined with seastone. Breaking the jitte doesn't mean the seastone on the tip vanishes, and anyone can pick it up and poke jack with it. However, they can all pretty much get 1-3 shotted. Jack's fighting style however sort of is more head on than anything and dude doesn't seem to fight as cautiously as law. There is a chance the team can go all at once and get a seastone poke in from the blind spot dropping jack. Whichever way the fight goes, it'll be over in less than 5 minutes.

In scenario 1: I can see doffy locking in a parasite, however jack's zoan abilities means he can change sizes freely and his raw strength as an ancient mammoth zoan should count for something to him being able to escape. If Doffy plays it smart, he can take to the skies and poke jack with awakening, maybe get a birdcage on. Doffy's super versatile, which is perfect for fighting someone more powerful. I'll still give Jack the edge, but it could be a good fight, if Doffy fights properly.

Scenario 2: There's no hax or versatility on either Zoro or Sanji's side. They have to fight this guy head on. Zoro has the punch to really hurt Jack, but if he's anything like the cracker biscuit clones, then I don't think they can really take him down.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 28, 2016)

Can Doffy even hurt Jack? Maybe God Thread is the only exception. 

Jack has a monstrous tank feat, he survived Zou's trunk ffs.


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## Bogard (Dec 28, 2016)

Doflamingo's offense was one of his main weakness in dressrosa comparatively to Jack's incredible endurance, so most likely Jack will end up outlasting him high diff. Scenario2, Zoro has good offense but most likely not enough to win with Sanji's current feats. In the third scenario, Jack should win about similar difficulty. I don't think Smoker even with his jitte can even pin down Jack, so he may end up fodderized. Vergo has great endurance though, so he may last a little longer than the rest


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## Nekochako (Dec 28, 2016)

Jack high diff.


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## barreltheif (Dec 28, 2016)

kurisu said:


> Can Doffy even hurt Jack? Maybe God Thread is the only exception.
> Jack has a monstrous tank feat, he survived Zou's trunk ffs.



Doffy would need to use his full arsenal to beat Jack. But Jack has no way to even hit an airborne Doffy.


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## mr sean66 (Dec 28, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Doffy would need to use his full arsenal to beat Jack. But Jack has no way to even hit an airborne Doffy.


lol I just imagine jack acting like a pissed off brute picking up chunks of stone and chucking it at mingo into the sky haha.


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## TheWiggian (Dec 28, 2016)

Jack high diffs.


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## Bernkastel (Dec 28, 2016)

Jack wins everytime ...he's propably higher in the hierarchy of a yonkou crew than Cracker who woould beat Doflamingo.


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## barreltheif (Dec 28, 2016)

mr sean66 said:


> lol I just imagine jack acting like a pissed off brute picking up chunks of stone and chucking it at mingo into the sky haha.



Yeah. And then Doffy effortlessly dodges. Or effortlessly blocks if he doesn't feel like dodging.



Bernkastel said:


> Jack wins everytime ...he's propably higher in the hierarchy of a yonkou crew than Cracker who woould beat Doflamingo.



Nope. They're both yonkou #4s. (1) Kaido (2) King (3) Queen (4) Jack. Doffy beats both.


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## Bogard (Dec 28, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Doffy would need to use his full arsenal to beat Jack. But Jack has no way to even hit an airborne Doffy.


Jack can most likely use Doflamingo's strings to bring him to him. Besides, we didn't even see Jack's on panel feats that much. For all we know he can throw water bullets attacks from the distance in his mammoth form(he is even a fishman-hybrid)


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## barreltheif (Dec 28, 2016)

Bogard said:


> Jack can most likely use Doflamingo's strings to bring him to him. Besides, we didn't even see Jack's on panel feats that much. For all we know he can throw water bullets attacks from the distance in his mammoth form(he is even a fishman-hybrid)



Uh, you know that Doffy can just release his strings?
Yeah, and for all we know Doffy is a Yasopp-level sniper, he just usually doesn't bother to use his gun. See, I can baselessly make up abilities for characters too.





kurisu said:


> Can Doffy even hurt Jack? Maybe God Thread is the only exception.
> Jack has a monstrous tank feat, he survived Zou's trunk ffs.



Zunisha absolutely fodderstomped Jack and deflated much of his hype in a few panels. Did you seriously just try to use that scene as a positive for Jack, because he didn't die? Maybe you think that Bellamy on Jaya had a "monstrous" tanking feat against Luffy since he survived Luffy's punch?


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## xmysticgohanx (Dec 28, 2016)

kurisu said:


> Can Doffy even hurt Jack? Maybe God Thread is the only exception.
> 
> Jack has a monstrous tank feat, he survived Zou's trunk ffs.


 that feat is garbage

Kaido > Zunisha


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## Bogard (Dec 29, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Uh, you know that Doffy can just release his strings?
> Yeah, and for all we know Doffy is a Yasopp-level sniper, he just usually doesn't bother to use his gun. See, I can baselessly make up abilities for characters too.


He most likely can, but can he release them fast enough?
Except it's complete nonsense. Doflamingo had the longest arc of the serie dedicated to him to showcase his abilities when Jack is reserved for later, so we don't know all his abilities(we didn't even see his hybrid form) . They aren't in the same situation at all, that's why basing this fight when there are some unknown things about Jack is bullshit

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## Bernkastel (Dec 29, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Nope. They're both yonkou #4s. (1) Kaido (2) King (3) Queen (4) Jack. Doffy beats both.



No he doesn't ...Cracker > Doffy despite the fact that your order is completely baseless.


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## Gohara (Jan 1, 2017)

To be fair The Beast Pirates seem to be ranked based on Playing Cards, so the ranking that barreltheif listed is reasonable IMO.  The only possible disagreement that I have is that Ace might rank above King.  We don't know if Kaidou himself is considered the Ace or if the First Mate is considered Kaidou's Ace.

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## Bernkastel (Jan 1, 2017)

It could be true yes but using that as an argument is pointless cause it's nontheless speculation and nothing more.
Not that it matters cause even if it's true Jack ~Cracker > DD anyway.
The disparity in bounties though suggest that Jack is higher in the hierarchy.
Btw was there ever mentioned a queen,ace,king cause Jack could just be his name ..you know simply Jack thus why it's at least stupid to use it as an argument just yet.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Jan 1, 2017)

In scenario one Jack wins high to extreme difficulty. I think all top 3 Yonkou commanders are slightly to greatly superior to Doflamingo (Match ups not taken into account). Due to Jack being a pure physical type of fighter even with the df ability I would say it would be an extreme difficulty. 

In the second scenario Jack would most likely lose after giving them an extremely difficult fight. Could be high-high difficulty. While Zoro is no Doffy, he is still comparable to Trafalgar, Doffy, and Luffy. That alone grants him some grounds to fight against Jack quite well. Add in Sanji and they win. Remember Jack is not Doffy and won't have the hax that comes along with Doffy's ability. Jack is a pure fighter so Sanji can accomplish a lot here. 

The third scenario is difficult to tell. Due to the number difference and because Smoker should be able to do more than we saw from him Jack should lose. But even with the number they don't really have a lot of good feats. So I say Jack sins with a high level of difficulty.


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## barreltheif (Jan 1, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> No he doesn't ...Cracker > Doffy despite the fact that your order is completely baseless.



Right. Because Jack being stronger than King makes total sense.



Bogard said:


> He most likely can, but can he release them fast enough?
> Except it's complete nonsense. Doflamingo had the longest arc of the serie dedicated to him to showcase his abilities when Jack is reserved for later, so we don't know all his abilities(we didn't even see his hybrid form) . They aren't in the same situation at all, that's why basing this fight when there are some unknown things about Jack is bullshit



We've seen Jack fight. He did not use water bullet or any other fishman karate techniques, nor was there indication at all that he can. You do not get to make up a fighting style for Jack just because what he has shown is not nearly enough for him to be able to beat Doflamingo.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 1, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Btw was there ever mentioned a queen,ace,king



I don't know about an Ace, but King and Queen are pretty much confirmed to exist and are stronger than Jack. There is this one picture of Oda's desk. The note in the upper right corner has "Kaido, King, Queen, Jack" written on it.

Here is what sandman (speaks japanese) says.


> We can see many setting notebooks about story, characters and moves. On upper right, there is a paper which says, "Kaidou, King, Queen, Jack


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 1, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Zunisha absolutely fodderstomped Jack and deflated much of his hype in a few panels. Did you seriously just try to use that scene as a positive for Jack, because he didn't die? Maybe you think that Bellamy on Jaya had a "monstrous" tanking feat against Luffy since he survived Luffy's punch?



In process of power-scaling, Luffy's punch is a complete joke in comparison to Zunisha's trunk. That comparison is flawed. 

This was Jack after Zunisha's attack:



After surviving The Admiral fleet, and after fighting Nekomamushi and Inuarashi for days. His durability and endurance is an obvious strong point. But to indulge you, does Doflamingo have anything remotely as powerful as Zunisha's trunk? I only mentioned God Thread due to the piercing effect, but most of Doffy's attacks pale in comparison. 



xmysticgohanx said:


> that feat is garbage
> 
> Kaido > Zunisha



Kaido being stronger than Zunisha doesn't really take away from Jack's durability.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Jan 1, 2017)

Also Zunisha didn't fodderize Jack. Jack was just stuck underwater being a df user and all.


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## Bogard (Jan 1, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Right. Because Jack being stronger than King makes total sense.
> 
> 
> 
> We've seen Jack fight. He did not use water bullet or any other fishman karate techniques, nor was there indication at all that he can. You do not get to make up a fighting style for Jack just because what he has shown is not nearly enough for him to be able to beat Doflamingo.


Ok show me one named attack from Jack, _*just one. *_Hint: You can't.
However ask me about Doflamingo's techniques and i can fill this thread of named attacks of his
You know why? Because as mentioned he got the longest arc in the manga dedicated to him when in Jack's case, we only got small glimpses and hype with his full showings being reserved for later. Refusing to understand this is pathetic


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## MrWano (Jan 1, 2017)

We haven't seen shit from Jack. How is that even an argument?


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## Bernkastel (Jan 1, 2017)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> I don't know about an Ace, but King and Queen are pretty much confirmed to exist and are stronger than Jack. There is this one picture of Oda's desk. The note in the upper right corner has "Kaido, King, Queen, Jack" written on it.
> 
> Here is what sandman (speaks japanese) says.



That's cool and all but still not a valid argument for a vs debate...i mean i'm all for the theme of king,queen,jack but to use something like this in a vs argument is pointless that's all...wait till we get solid proof in-manga and then use it all you want but for now all that is a theory.



barreltheif said:


> Right. Because Jack being stronger than King makes total sense..



No but thats just speculation for now and we don't know if Queen,King will be part of Kaido's crew...till we get proof in the manga that can't be used to rank/hype Jack...not that it matters since Cracker being equalish to Jack would still mean they're > Doflamingo.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Jan 1, 2017)

The whole DD wins by staying in the air argument is just stupid you might as well say DD beat Kaido to seeing as he can't fly.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 1, 2017)

Does Jack have any long ranged attacks?


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 1, 2017)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> The whole DD wins by staying in the air argument is just stupid you might as well say DD beat Kaido to seeing as he can't fly.



The difference is DD is unlikely to hurt mr invincible Kaido with his long ranged attacks.

This thread is pointless because we have no named attacks for Jack so we would just be speculating based on where each person places Dofla compared to a Commander. The only thing we know about Jack is he has great stamina, great durability and can go fight 2 admirals, sink 2 ships and only get bandage level wounds in return.


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## barreltheif (Jan 1, 2017)

Bogard said:


> Ok show me one named attack from Jack, _*just one. *_Hint: You can't.
> However ask me about Doflamingo's techniques and i can fill this thread of named attacks of his
> You know why? Because as mentioned he got the longest arc in the manga dedicated to him when in Jack's case, we only got small glimpses and hype with his full showings being reserved for later. Refusing to understand this is pathetic



WB didn't show named attacks either. We still saw WB's fighting style. Same with Jack. It wasn't fishman karate. That doesn't mean he can't ever show another fighting style, but it does mean that you don't get to say he can use a specific fishman karate technique just because it's the only way he could have a chance of beating Doflamingo.




kurisu said:


> In process of power-scaling, Luffy's punch is a complete joke in comparison to Zunisha's trunk. That comparison is flawed.
> This was Jack after Zunisha's attack:
> 
> After surviving The Admiral fleet, and after fighting Nekomamushi and Inuarashi for days. His durability and endurance is an obvious strong point. But to indulge you, does Doflamingo have anything remotely as powerful as Zunisha's trunk? I only mentioned God Thread due to the piercing effect, but most of Doffy's attacks pale in comparison.
> Kaido being stronger than Zunisha doesn't really take away from Jack's durability.



You didn't understand the comparison. Obviously Zunisha is stronger than preskip Luffy. But getting fodderized by your opponent isn't a durability feat, even if your opponent is really strong. You basically picked the worst scene you could - Jack getting one-shot - and then tried to use it as a positive for his durability.

Doffy doesn't need anything as strong as Zunisha's trunk attack, because Doffy isn't trying to fodderize Jack in a single hit here. He just needs to win.




Bernkastel said:


> That's cool and all but still not a valid argument for a vs debate...i mean i'm all for the theme of king,queen,jack but to use something like this in a vs argument is pointless that's all...wait till we get solid proof in-manga and then use it all you want but for now all that is a theory.
> No but thats just speculation for now and we don't know if Queen,King will be part of Kaido's crew...till we get proof in the manga that can't be used to rank/hype Jack...not that it matters since Cracker being equalish to Jack would still mean they're > Doflamingo.



King and Queen are in Kaido's crew. They were in Oda's notebook between Kaido and Jack. They're stronger than Jack. Of course, this is slightly speculative, but it's speculation based on evidence. It's far, _far_ less baseless than saying that Jack would beat Doflamingo using long range fishman karate.

I doubt Jack is as weak as Cracker. He's somewhere between Cracker and Doffy.

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## Bernkastel (Jan 1, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> King and Queen are in Kaido's crew. They were in Oda's notebook between Kaido and Jack. They're stronger than Jack. Of course, this is slightly speculative, but it's speculation based on evidence. It's far, _far_ less baseless than saying that Jack would beat Doflamingo using long range fishman karate.
> 
> I doubt Jack is as weak as Cracker. He's somewhere between Cracker and Doffy.



Again wait till we get proof in the manga before using it...it's not that hard and it's realy a bad way to gauge the strength of a character.
Also if you want to use equivalents you also have to add another commander in Kaido's crew(propably Ace) since BM's crew has 4 commanders and start making your own manga...see my point? just wait till we see the full crew and how it's composed.

Anyway you're wrong if you think Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker...the portrayal was clear...one couldn't do shit to G4 while the other was able to even piere through it..not to mention the huge amount of time it took for Luffy to beat him even when he had Nami+hommies to weaken him further.

So Jack wins comfortably here wether he's equal/stronger than Cracker.


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## Dayscanor (Jan 1, 2017)

I'd give it to DD, simply for the fact that we know a good deal about his abilities, which are pretty useful, while we really don't know much about Jack to begin with.

I can see Jack being superior to DD strength wise, and maybe even in terms of stamina (his fight with the two mink leaders lasted for days) but DD was seen tanking quite a few attacks against Luffy, so you bet he won't go down easily.
DD's DF is hax in its own right, he could just use Parasite on Jack, and he has the awakening too.

So seems to me he has quite a few tools at his disposal, and he could come up with a strategy instead of facing Jack head on and try to overpower him in terms of strength.

The other 2 scenarios I really have no idea. Again the issue is that we don't know much about Jack to begin with, and how strong other characters are in comparison.I'm tempted to say Zoro wins in S2 (yeah no need for Sanji) but it could be a tough fight. And in 3 Jack prolly wins.


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## Dayscanor (Jan 1, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Can Doffy even hurt Jack? Maybe God Thread is the only exception.
> 
> Jack has a monstrous tank feat, he survived Zou's trunk ffs.


...the trunk hit the boat, it didn't hit him directly.


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## barreltheif (Jan 1, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Again wait till we get proof in the manga before using it...it's not that hard and it's realy a bad way to gauge the strength of a character.
> Also if you want to use equivalents you also have to add another commander in Kaido's crew(propably Ace) since BM's crew has 4 commanders and start making your own manga...see my point? just wait till we see the full crew and how it's composed.



No, I don't see your point. There are three calamities. We saw Oda's notebook. It says "Kaido...King...Queen...Jack". There's no mention of an Ace, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. Is it vaguely possible that Oda has changed his mind since writing that notebook, and won't be including Queen or King? I guess there's a slight chance?



> Anyway you're wrong if you think Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker...the portrayal was clear...one couldn't do shit to G4 while the other was able to even piere through it..not to mention the huge amount of time it took for Luffy to beat him even when he had Nami+hommies to weaken him further.
> So Jack wins comfortably here wether he's equal/stronger than Cracker.



Doffy beat G4 by outlasting it. Doffy (+Trebol and Bellamy) took on Luffy+Law and managed to separate and ultimately beat them. Cracker lost to Luffy+Nami. It's pretty obvious who's stronger.
The only time Cracker even hit Luffy after he first went G4 was when he got in a free overhead swing on Luffy's outstretched arm, and still only did moderate damage. Imagine if someone like Zoro got a free chance to cut off Luffy's outstretched arm. The fight would pretty much be over. That doesn't bode well for Cracker's offense or his ability to give a good fight to someone as strong as Doffy.


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## Gohara (Jan 5, 2017)

@ Bernkastel.

It's not factual but I don't think that it's as speculative as you seem to think that it is.  We can safely assume that The Beast Pirates are themed off of Playing Cards, and in Playing Cards there are multiple ranks above Jack.  I don't see why Oda would use that theme but then randomly change the ranks.  So it's not factual but it is likely that there are multiple Beast Commanders ranked above Lord Jack IMO.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> You didn't understand the comparison. Obviously Zunisha is stronger than preskip Luffy. But getting fodderized by your opponent isn't a durability feat, even if your opponent is really strong. You basically picked the worst scene you could - Jack getting one-shot - and then tried to use it as a positive for his durability.



Well.. Context matters. Akainu also survived two straight hits from Whitebeard, so did Luffy against Magellan's poison. It's a durability/endurance feat regardless of how you twist it. He survived a 5 day war with the minks, survived Doffy escort fleet, and an island buster of an attack. Durability/endurance is a thing of his, let's try and move on shall we?



> Doffy doesn't need anything as strong as Zunisha's trunk attack, because Doffy isn't trying to fodderize Jack in a single hit here. He just needs to win.



And I refer you to my OG point. Can Doffy put down Jack for good without God Thread?



NoticemeEscanorsenpai said:


> ...the trunk hit the boat, it didn't hit him directly.



No. He was actually hit.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Dayscanor (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> No. He was actually hit.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


You should have quoted the double page that came before it

The angle from which Zunisha hit it makes it that he touched the boat first, he didn't smack his trunk on Jack directly, his aim was the boat.

The force of the impact  could be what caused Jack's helmet to break.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

NoticemeEscanorsenpai said:


> You should have quoted the double page that came before it
> 
> The angle from which Zunisha hit it makes it that he touched the boat first, he didn't smack his trunk on Jack directly, his aim was the boat.
> 
> The force of the impact and the debris could be what caused Jack's helmet to break.





It's still possible to hit the ship first and then Jack. The trunk's hardness and size relative to the ships pales in comparison, it's like if I kicked a paper boat with a chick standing on it. Jack got a direct hit. At the very worst Jack survived the impact, which taking into considering the size, hardness, and force is still just as impressive.


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## Dayscanor (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> It's still possible to hit the ship first and then Jack. The trunk's hardness and size relative to the ships pales in comparison, it's like if I kicked a paper boat with a chick standing on it. Jack got a direct hit. At the very worst Jack survived the impact, which taking into considering the size, hardness, and force is still just as impressive.


I'm saying that his aim was the boat, and the impact would also have  been lessened as a result because Zunisha wasn't aiming to hit Jack specifically. There's also that to take into account, and since there is no panel that shows Jack getting directly hit by it, then it's just up to speculation. It is definitely sure that the impact would have been great, which from all account would have hit Jack pretty hard.

However I don't think he has that much merit in him surviving it, considering that most of his men would have drowned anyway even if they weren't instantly killed by the trunk attack, since as far as we know he's the only fishman.


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## barreltheif (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Well.. Context matters. Akainu also survived two straight hits from Whitebeard, so did Luffy against Magellan's poison. It's a durability/endurance feat regardless of how you twist it. He survived a 5 day war with the minks, survived Doffy escort fleet, and an island buster of an attack. Durability/endurance is a thing of his, let's try and move on shall we?



Surviving a blow from WB isn't impressive if it still one shots you. Akainu is impressive because he can give WB a close fight, not because he can merely survive a single blow from WB.

Ronse, Teach, etc. didn't die. That's not a feat for them. As far as I can remember, not a single character in One Piece has ever died from a blunt force attack. I doubt Jack's underlings even died from Zunisha's attack.

Fighting the minks for 5 days and then taking on two admirals is an endurance feat. Getting one shot by Zunisha isn't a feat at all, especially when you're supposedly a top tier who isn't supposed to get one shot by anyone.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Surviving a blow from WB isn't impressive if it still one shots you. Akainu is impressive because he can give WB a close fight, not because he can merely survive a single blow from WB.
> 
> Ronse, Teach, etc. didn't die. That's not a feat for them. As far as I can remember, not a single character in One Piece has ever died from a blunt force attack. I doubt Jack's underlings even died from Zunisha's attack.



Again. Context... Akainu stepped right up after eating those attacks point blank. Jack's crew are probably Ko'd but he was still conscious.

It's mainly up to you if you *refuse *to look at it as a feat tbh. I wont fight a losing battle.



barreltheif said:


> Fighting the minks for 5 days and then taking on two admirals is an endurance feat. Getting one shot by Zunisha isn't a feat at all, especially when you're supposedly a top tier who isn't supposed to get one shot by anyone.



I again refer you to the possibility that Jack wasn't Ko'd and is only immobile due to him being underwater. Secondly, Zunisha could potentially possess power comparable to an ancient weapon. We have no idea how strong those are.

But again, either way. Whether it's a durability or endurance feat, let's cut to this chase. I've asked this before, but what can Doflamingo do to put down Jack? Other than God Thread which I agree probably could.

The problem with Jack is that he has barely shown any offensive feats but his hype around him is still intact. And Zunisha's triumph has more to do with Zunisha's power than Jack's shortcomings. 

That's my opinion on the matter until Jack shows some named attacks, now you can do with that as you will.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 14, 2017)

Yeah, aiming the boat means Jack shit. 

Anyway, Jack is possibly >= Cracker > Mingo. IMO Jack wins high difficulty.


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## Dellinger (Jan 15, 2017)

Jack is certainly stronger than Cracker and Doflamingo.You guys must be on some pretty good shit if you think otherwise.Cracker's portrayal pales in comparison to Jack's.


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## Nekochako (Jan 15, 2017)

I thought Cracker was impressive enough for a yonko top member but Jack is most definitely stronger. He has been shown to have top endurance and should be a real strength monster too. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be even stronger then both Jozu and Vista.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 15, 2017)

Cracker's portrayal is light years above Jack's currently


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## Gohara (Jan 16, 2017)

@ Hawk.

I agree that Lord Jack is likely more powerful than Lord Cracker, but what makes you suggest that the difference in portrayal is significant so far?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 16, 2017)

Cracker has better offense and a comparable defensive strategy(clone feints) to Jack's tankness. Jack needs an on-panel fight tbh.


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## Nekochako (Jan 16, 2017)

While Cracker is still extremely strong i can't see him tanking Zunisha in the same way and being able to fight the dukes for 5 days since he was getting tired after 11 hours of fighting Luffy and i can easily imagine Jack getting up from a cannon ball.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 16, 2017)

Nekomamushi said:


> While Cracker is still extremely strong i can't see him tanking Zunisha in the same way and being able to fight the dukes for 5 days since he was getting tired after 11 hours of fighting Luffy and i can easily imagine Jack getting up from a cannon ball.



Different styles. Cracker could possibly finish off one of the dukes instead of just enduring them.


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## Nekochako (Jan 16, 2017)

Jack can most likely likely finish off one duke one on one aswell so not really proof you can use to say Cracker is stronger/as strong. I personally think Inu/Neko can beat Cracker two on one while taking turns like they did against Jack and the clones seems to drain a lot of stamina so him using clones might stop working after a period of time so he probably won't be able to fight for 5 days without getting knocked out.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 16, 2017)

Nekomamushi said:


> Jack can most likely likely finish off one duke one on one aswell so not really proof you can use to say Cracker is stronger/as strong. I personally think Inu/Neko can beat Cracker two on one while taking turns like they did against Jack and the clones seems to drain a lot of stamina so him using clones might stop working after a period of time so he probably won't be able to fight for 5 days without getting knocked out.



But it's proven that Jack couldn't finish one off in 12 hours. My point is that Cracker possibly could, and might lose or stalemate the other.  

I mean Yonko Commanders shouldn't be far off from each other when it comes to overall strength. Cracker is just a specialist.


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## Nekochako (Jan 16, 2017)

Perhaps he could but it's also possible that he won't do better then Jack.

Never said they were far off at all. Only saying that overall seems that Jack is stronger then Cracker but who knows it's possible that Cracker will make a return like Jack and i might be proven wrong then.


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## Gohara (Jan 17, 2017)

To be fair, though, Luffy is likely more powerful than Neko and Inurashi individually.


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## Dellinger (Jan 17, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Cracker has better offense and a comparable defensive strategy(clone feints) to Jack's tankness. Jack needs an on-panel fight tbh.


What the fuck Khris? Where did Cracker showcase better offense?He didn't critically injure Luffy.

Jack is the guy with the billion bounty,the guy that was fighting 2 guys like Inu and Neko non stop for 5 days while they were resting for 12 hours.Wanda admitted the Mink nation couldn't do shit to him.He survived an encounter with Fujitora and Sengoku with only minor injuries and he was pretty fine after an island sized trunk hit him right in the face.


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## Shrike (Jan 17, 2017)

I dunno. We didn't see enough of Jack. From what we've seen, Doffy can simply fly and keep hitting him with Overheat or God Thread until he dies. Not to go all Vermilion, but Jack brought down a building with his trunk, whereas DD cut through three castle towers with a simple kick... (though that was before he got Gamma Knifed to shit)

All I have seen from Jack is insane endurance and stamina. His offense wasn't really all that special (neither is DD's for that matter, but he is far more versatile) and his abilities are very limited.

I am leaning toward Doffy. Even after getting his organs shredded he tanked insane blows and turned half the town into strings.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 17, 2017)

White Hawk said:


> What the fuck Khris? Where did Cracker showcase better offense?He didn't critically injure Luffy.
> 
> Jack is the guy with the billion bounty,the guy that was fighting 2 guys like Inu and Neko non stop for 5 days while they were resting for 12 hours.Wanda admitted the Mink nation couldn't do shit to him.He survived an encounter with Fujitora and Sengoku with only minor injuries and he was pretty fine after an island sized trunk hit him right in the face.



You didn't mention any of his offensive capabilities, that's because they're still a mystery to everyone. Cracker is the only character to hurt G4 so far. That's pretty impressive offense.


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## Dellinger (Jan 17, 2017)

kurisu said:


> You didn't mention any of his offensive capabilities, that's because they're still a mystery to everyone. Cracker is the only character to hurt G4 so far. That's pretty impressive offense.



Jack was beating Inu in his mammoth form.That's pretty impressive offense as far as I'm concerned.


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## Nekochako (Jan 17, 2017)

Cracker would probably also be able to fight with the dukes in the way we actually saw on-panel. Yeah can't really say anything on Jack's offensive strength so far compared to Cracker since we haven't seen anything. He is probably a strength monster but at the moment we can just assume that his endurance and stamina is better.


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## mr sean66 (Jan 17, 2017)

Yeah I belive like kaido, jack has much better defense, endurance and stamina
Then he has offensive power.


Jack would likely outlast cracker after about 20 or so hours cracker can't easily make clones anymore.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 17, 2017)

White Hawk said:


> Jack was beating Inu in his mammoth form.That's pretty impressive offense as far as I'm concerned.



Didn't Inu casually block his trunk swing. Not that impressive.
Jack is clearly a endurance type fighter like Marco his offensive powers are relatively low


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## Dellinger (Jan 17, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Didn't Inu casually block his trunk swing. Not that impressive.
> Jack is clearly a endurance type fighter like Marco his offensive powers are relatively low





As far as I'm concerned,Jack seems to have the advantage.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 17, 2017)

White Hawk said:


> As far as I'm concerned,Jack seems to have the advantage.



So after half a day of fighting Inu took some damage? 

I dont see how thats special?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gohara (Jan 17, 2017)

@ White Hawk.

What makes you suggest that Lord Cracker can't also do those things?


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## Muah (Jan 18, 2017)

Jack wins all three

The first on is high high diff.
The second one high diff
And the third one mid diff.

Sanji and Zoro have good damage output but have shown time and again they cant compete with Enimies on Luffys Level. Doflamingo is a good amount stronger than the two combined. And  he doesnt stand a chance against Jack. I only gave him high diff because hes so smart and manuverable.


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## trance (Jan 19, 2017)

Doffy takes to the sky, rains down attacks and there's not a damn thing Jack can do about it since he seems to be lacking in the range category and he's ground based

Jinbe and Ace can battle nonstop for 5 days straight and those incarnations of them are comfortably below Doffy, so it's not like Jack has the edge in stamina and even with his organs torn to pieces, he still essentially lolnoped everything Luffy threw at him prior to G4

So, with a noticeable range advantage, at least comparable stamina, similarly high endurance and much more versatility in combat, I'd give it to Doffy until we see more from Jack

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ThatGreekLady (Jan 19, 2017)

Scenario 1: Jack extreme difficulty

Scenario 2: Zoro and Sanji extreme difficulty

Scenario 3: Jack high difficulty


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## GucciBandana (Jan 23, 2017)

Jack, cracker, inu, neko all around same level, all below doffy.


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## tejas8055 (Jan 31, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Jack, cracker, inu, neko all around same level, all above doffy.


Fixed


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 31, 2017)

Doffy > Jack > Neko & Inu


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## Typhon (Feb 1, 2017)

kyouko said:


> Doffy takes to the sky, rains down attacks and there's not a damn thing Jack can do about it since he seems to be lacking in the range category and he's ground based
> 
> Jinbe and Ace can battle nonstop for 5 days straight and those incarnations of them are comfortably below Doffy, so it's not like Jack has the edge in stamina and even with his organs torn to pieces, he still essentially lolnoped everything Luffy threw at him prior to G4
> 
> So, with a noticeable range advantage, at least comparable stamina, similarly high endurance and much more versatility in combat, I'd give it to Doffy until we see more from Jack


Pretty much this. You see a lot people out right ignoring kits. It's Jozu all over again. Everyone thinks he can win, but can't explain how'd he even reach the guy


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## HawkEye13 (Feb 1, 2017)

Doflamingo: island level range attack that couldn't be stopped by an Admiral, Zoro and a whole country. Took mulitple G4 attacks AFTER gama knife and having fought luffy  Would have easily avoided that Zunisha . Went down by Luffy + Law + civilians WHILE holding the birdcage. Defeated by an attack that that leveled an island and luffy was out for 4 days.
Cracker: only thing was the biscuit soilders with had the defense. Shitty durability. I thought he was stronger than Doffy when he hurt G4 then I relise it was a sneak attack and he couldn't hurt luffy after that. Went down by Luffy+Nami+ homes. Defeated by an gag attack and luffy was fine after that. He fought the army and still be able to take Sanji attacks.
Jack: Only has edurance going for him, he failed to take down a duke in 12 hours. Got Spanked by Fujitora which wold also happen to Doffy. Got taken out by Zunisha while looking pathetic and could do a thing.

I thought cracker was stronger at first when he hurt G4 untilni saw his full extent .
Doflamingo feats shits on Cracker and Jack. Sure they have things going to them like defense for cracker and edurance for Jack but Doflamingo is way more impressive.
Doflamingo high diffs Jack. Doflamingo would have easily avoided that trunk attack.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## HawkEye13 (Feb 1, 2017)

Typhon said:


> Pretty much this. You see a lot people out right ignoring kits. It's Jozu all over again. Everyone thinks he can win, but can't explain how'd he even reach the guy


IKR. The only commander I see that is clear above Doffy is Marco so far. Jack most impressive Dc showcase was destroying a building, Cracker was destroying  tree and Smoothie couldn't destroy a door that BM bust through with no sweat.
Marco and Jozu seems way stronger than the new commanders and since BB defeated them hopefully they have real commanders

Reactions: Agree 1


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## tejas8055 (Feb 4, 2017)

Zunisha's island sized trunk swing >> King Kong Gun and Jack was even conscious after taking that while Duffy was battered. Endurance of Jack is far greater than Duffy. Also Jack is a fishman so maybe he uses fishman karate. Add to that he is a mammoth and can shoot water out of his trunk. That's funny but a deadly combo. Cracker and Doflamingo would be mid diffed.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Feb 4, 2017)

The top 3 Yonkou commanders are *clearly* above DD. Cracker's feats *shit *on everything DD did. But that doesn't mean based on a match up DD can't beat some of them of at least come close. Jack seems like one of those. DD seems like a bad match up for him. DD wins extreme difficulty because it will take a lot to take Jack down.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 5, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> The top 3 Yonkou commanders are *clearly* above DD. Cracker's feats *shit *on everything DD did. But that doesn't mean based on a match up DD can't beat some of them of at least come close. Jack seems like one of those. DD seems like a bad match up for him. DD wins extreme difficulty because it will take a lot to take Jack down.


 Doffy's feats are way above that Jack wannabe

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vengarl (Feb 5, 2017)

Between Jack Dofla and Cracky each have their own strong points.

Durability: Jack>Dofla>>cracker
Speed: Dofla>cracker>>jack
Offense: Dofla>=Cracker>Jack
Defense: Cracker>Jack>Dofla
Stamina: Jack>Cracker>Dofla

I think Dofla is quicker and has a better array of attacks would have to use his best ones to put Jack down and the fight would have to be finished soon since Jack doesn't get tired over a period of days.


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## tejas8055 (Feb 6, 2017)

Dofla would get the Sheepshead treatment from Jack. That is why he was scared shitless at the thought of angering Kaido.


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## Extravlad (Feb 6, 2017)

Vengarl said:


> Between Jack Dofla and Cracky each have their own strong points.
> 
> Durability: Jack>Dofla>>cracker
> Speed: Dofla>cracker>>jack
> ...


Doflamingo couldn't react to G4, Cracker could and was fighting G4 at blank point without getting hit. Speed goes to Cracker.
Doffy's offense is crap, Cracker did more to G4 than Doffy's awakening.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vermilion Kn (Feb 6, 2017)

Jack is a building level ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Dofla merks that useless bitch.


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## Lord Stark (Feb 7, 2017)

Going with Doflamingo extreme difficulty for now.


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## El Hit (Feb 7, 2017)

Doffy solos everybody, he has better feats, anyway I hate all that feats bullshit, the autor does not care about all that shit he is only drawing cool things, doffy is more relevant , like in dragonball, frieza was back and he could shit on the androids obviously the villain with the longest arc is more relevant than posible sanji's enemy.


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## zoro (Feb 9, 2017)

Barragan_Nnoitra said:


> Doffy solos everybody, he has better feats, anyway I hate all that feats bullshit, the autor does not care about all that shit he is only drawing cool things, doffy is more relevant , like in dragonball, frieza was back and he could shit on the androids obviously the villain with the longest arc is more relevant than posible sanji's enemy.



But that logic doesn't work, Caesar was Punk Hazard's antagonist, he's more relevant to the overall story than Jack yet that doesn't mean he'd beat him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GucciBandana (Feb 9, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> The top 3 Yonkou commanders are *clearly* above DD. Cracker's feats *shit *on everything DD did. But that doesn't mean based on a match up DD can't beat some of them of at least come close. Jack seems like one of those. DD seems like a bad match up for him. DD wins extreme difficulty because it will take a lot to take Jack down.



During marineford doffy stopped a top 3 yonkou commander effortlessly.



Extravlad said:


> Doflamingo couldn't react to G4, Cracker could and was fighting G4 at blank point without getting hit. Speed goes to Cracker.
> Doffy's offense is crap, Cracker did more to G4 than Doffy's awakening.



Doffy reacted to G4 enough times, he reacted to kong gun and was blocking it, just under estimated its power, reacted to python, dodged it easily, even launched a counter attack, then reacted to double python, blocked it with his awakening strings. The only time he had trouble reacting was that rhino Schneider kick, that's most likely cuz doffy underestimated G4 speed just like how he underestimated its power before it, and underestimated its defense after it, he still put CoA on his face which meaning reacted to it. But doffy has enough feat after it showing he can more than enough react to G4, he was pushing G4 luffy onto the defensive end during the end of that 20 min battle.
Cracker attacked luffy close range while he was distracted, which is like saying onigumo matches Marco speed cuz he was able to grab him and handcuff, crackers mainbody is likely not slow but he lacks speed feat or speed portrayal, the fact he couldn't take out nami during that 11 hours using his speed, isn't very good speed portrayal.


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## Lord Stark (Feb 9, 2017)

Point of information, it does seem Doffy also did make G4 Luffy bleed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## savior2005 (Feb 10, 2017)

Lord Stark said:


> Point of information, it does seem Doffy also did make G4 Luffy bleed.


o shit, is this legit? it matters a lot when it relates to the PL of cracker/jack/doffy. ppl say that doffy is completely incapable of scracthing luffy, but doffy is also the most versatile.


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## Ajin (Feb 10, 2017)

Misconception about Doffy's inability to hurt G4 Luffy is one of most cancerous when it comes to the threads like this one. Apparently because of his one kick was unable to break through Luffy's haki and natural blunt damage resistance (strengthened by G4 form) therefore he cannot hurt G4 Luffy whatsoever. Like, what the fuck? Was Dressrosa really THAT much of clussterfuck that people started to think about "Athlete" not like Doffy's placeholder technique but as a peak of his offensive capabilities? It was his basically second worst attack ever shown, a basic kick + single string attached to back of his feet (which couldn't even cut opponent until he was firstly kicked off), and there is also a point about Doffy's injures which for sure had a impact on his physical attacks which wasn't the case in Awakening.

I still blame Oda about shitty PIS in that scene with Doffy deciding to kick G4 Luffy when it was painfully obvious that it won't work. Literally every other of his techniques except Bulletstring would be better. 

But nice find @Lord Stark , we are getting somewhere.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 10, 2017)

Lord Stark said:


> Point of information, it does seem Doffy also did make G4 Luffy bleed.


 I honestly don't see it

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## GucciBandana (Feb 10, 2017)

savior2005 said:


> o shit, is this legit? it matters a lot when it relates to the PL of cracker/jack/doffy. ppl say that doffy is completely incapable of scracthing luffy, but doffy is also the most versatile.



Doffy incapable of scratching luffy is just ridiculous, people jump to conclusion way too fast after seeing that kick, in fact awakening doffy was able to fight luffy for 20min evenly and even slight gaining upper hands before G4 luffy pulled off that counter attack, doffy has speed matching G4, and with awakening he has offensive and defensive capability matching G4.
Luffy fainted and slept for 3 days after the fight with doffy, by the time sengoku and co arrived to dressrosa, the report says luffy was "severely wounded" or "received heavy damage", clearly doffy was doing damage to G4 luffy off panel too(G4 luffy has new scratch marks on his forehead after 20min off panel fight), there's no way doffy can't scratch g4 luffy and luffy being that severely injured after the fight, that attack with blood on the awakening string just confirmed it.



Ajin said:


> Misconception about Doffy's inability to hurt G4 Luffy is one of most cancerous when it comes to the threads like this one. Apparently because of his one kick was unable to break through Luffy's haki and natural blunt damage resistance (strengthened by G4 form) therefore he cannot hurt G4 Luffy whatsoever. Like, what the fuck? Was Dressrosa really THAT much of clussterfuck that people started to think about "Athlete" not like Doffy's placeholder technique but as a peak of his offensive capabilities? It was his basically second worst attack ever shown, a basic kick + single string attached to back of his feet (which couldn't even cut opponent until he was firstly kicked off), and there is also a point about Doffy's injures which for sure had a impact on his physical attacks which wasn't the case in Awakening.
> 
> I still blame Oda about shitty PIS in that scene with Doffy deciding to kick G4 Luffy when it was painfully obvious that it won't work. Literally every other of his techniques except Bulletstring would be better.
> 
> But nice find @Lord Stark , we are getting somewhere.



How would you rank doffy non awakening techniques? Aside from birdcage.

For me it would be
1. Parasite
2. Spiderweb
3. Overheat
4. Five colour
And the rest.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Foster (Feb 10, 2017)

Jack, high difficulty. I think it'd be somewhat close but right now I don't see Doflamingo beating him.


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## Lord Stark (Feb 10, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> I honestly don't see it



There is a darkened area which typically indicates blood and a place where it seems Luffy was either hit or tried to bounce off of.


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## Shrike (Feb 10, 2017)

What are you guys talking about? 

Doflaming reacted to most G4 attacks. He only didn't react to Rhino Schneider. Flamingo blocked lots of attacks as well with Offwhite. He did hurt Luffy somewhat, not by much, but he kept up with Awakening solidly. He bypassed Luffy's armament with his own after he came back from his 10 min rest. He never used lethal attacks when he had openings either, like Overheat, but he used kicks for whatever reason. Still wouldn't slice Luffy that much, but it would sure do more damage than a kick. KKG detonated him though, along with his threads.

DD isn't able to defeat G4 Luffy. He is able to outlast it, though. I am not so sure who to label 'stronger' there, because of many factors.

But from a story and fact perspective: Luffy couldn't do anything to DD before G4 even with GK landed, G4 tossed him around the island, but couldn't put him down. Luffy had tons of help, not only from the gladiators and such, but mostly from Law, who, even when all gladiators fell, kept teleporting him out of DD's grasp. After coming back, Luffy's Armament was pierced by Doffy. Sure, he had just recovered from his 10 min coma, but it's not like Flamingo was fresh or anything. Then Luffy goes G4, KKG detonates Flamingo. Both fall and wake up days later. If there was no one around the island but them, especially Law, who is a doctor, and Mansherry with her healing, maybe Flamingo would have woken up before Luffy, and guess what would happen.

All I am saying is that people are taking DD lightly because he got tossed around by G4.

I am just finding it ridiculous that "Doffy can't hurt G4 Luffy" is the argument that Cracker > Doffy because Cracker hit Luffy once with a sneak attack  Not to mention Luffy used Kong Organ on Cracker's soldiers instead of using Culverine to hit Cracker himself. Etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GucciBandana (Feb 11, 2017)

Shrike said:


> What are you guys talking about?
> 
> Doflaming reacted to most G4 attacks. He only didn't react to Rhino Schneider. Flamingo blocked lots of attacks as well with Offwhite. He did hurt Luffy somewhat, not by much, but he kept up with Awakening solidly. He bypassed Luffy's armament with his own after he came back from his 10 min rest. He never used lethal attacks when he had openings either, like Overheat, but he used kicks for whatever reason. Still wouldn't slice Luffy that much, but it would sure do more damage than a kick. KKG detonated him though, along with his threads.
> 
> ...



I wanna add that the one G4 luffy tossed around the island was a non awakening half serious doffy, doffy underestimated G4 strength, speed and durability respectively, which resulted the KG, rhino Schneider and culverine hit, once doffy realized the amount of threat G4 possess, started using awakening and upped his concentration(evidence of better concentration: check how he reacted to rhino Schneider compare to culverine), G4 luffy got ONE clean hit on him in over 20 minutes, while luffy himself also received some damage.

Personally I dont think kgg is a G4 attack, it's a G4 + G3 attack, it's above G4, I don't include a tech like this when I'm talking about pure G4 luffy, so personally I think unlimited time G4 luffy and fully concentrated awakening doffy are roughly same level, with luffy being slightly ahead.


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## El Hit (Feb 11, 2017)

Gyro said:


> But that logic doesn't work, Caesar was Punk Hazard's antagonist, he's more relevant to the overall story than Jack yet that doesn't mean he'd beat him


He is the antagonist of a little arc and he is a subordinate of doflamingo like jack is one from kaidou (obviously jack>>>>>>clown). Also his portrayal is not like Doffy's just look how hard was that fight with law and luffy using everithing on him. 

Doffy is a shishibukai like crocodile and remember what happened on marineford with him, he was clashing with the WB commanders, doflamingo, akainu etc, even when he was defeated by a no gears luffy. When the autor loves a character nonsense like that happens and I really enjoy it because I hate all those power lvl and feats things.

 Remember 3 powers and shishibukai are one of those, also look at big moms crew even vergo and the seats could defeat a bunch of them thats why law's plan was to put doffy vs kaidou, doffy would get rekt but kaidou would lose people from his crew I mean even urogue defeated a commander. I think people overate commanders because of rayleigh and marco but those 2 are an exception they are fist mate of the stronger crews in history.


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## zoro (Feb 11, 2017)

Barragan_Nnoitra said:


> He is the antagonist of a little arc and he is a subordinate of doflamingo like jack is one from kaidou (obviously jack>>>>>>clown). Also his portrayal is not like Doffy's just look how hard was that fight with law and luffy using everithing on him.
> 
> Doffy is a shishibukai like crocodile and remember what happened on marineford with him, he was clashing with the WB commanders, doflamingo, akainu etc, even when he was defeated by a no gears luffy. When the autor loves a character nonsense like that happens and I really enjoy it because I hate all those power lvl and feats things.
> 
> Remember 3 powers and shishibukai are one of those, also look at big moms crew even vergo and the seats could defeat a bunch of them thats why law's plan was to put doffy vs kaidou, doffy would get rekt but kaidou would lose people from his crew I mean even urogue defeated a commander. I think people overate commanders because of rayleigh and marco but those 2 are an exception they are fist mate of the stronger crews in history.



What does "even Urouge" mean? The guy is a Supernovae, that scene wasn't used to prove the commanders ain't worth shit it was here to prove the Supernovae are getting close to the big shots. Anyway the point is, feats matter and relevance doesn't. Relevance gives stupid power boosts like the one Crocodile got, true, but it's not systematic. Actually only Croc got one in the whole manga, everyone else has pretty consistent feats and portrayal regardless of their relevance. Someone as irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story as Cracker pushed Luffy for 12 hours and would've beaten him without Nami and an entire forrest worth of help. And that's one of the guy Jack would have to face in a Yonko war


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## El Hit (Feb 11, 2017)

Feats matter what I think does not is things like "he is island lvl or building lvl" like people saying tamago would defeat crocodile or moria because of bounty or "he destroyed something really big!physics!!!!1!!" in a fantasy manga. If luffy is fighting against cracker in gear 4 and he defeated doflamingo a few days ago, those guys are in the same "tier" I mean laws help in a fight of luffy vs cracker would be overkill, I think doflamingo's relevance and portrayal in this specific fight would give him the victory against cracker. I did not see a single attack of cracker capable of hurting doflamingo the way gear 4 did and i watched how cracker was defeated the moment luffy made contact with him, and doflamingo's awakening would just be cutting everything from the floor in the direction he wants without the need of bypasing every cracker soldier and their shield, cracker is just a defensive beast but he would be eventualy cut while doflamingo is just flying, and if he manages to hit doflamingo well good luck trying to knock him out after the things we watch him tanking from gear 4 and law plus clone deception spider web, parasite etc
Tldr they are in the same tier doflamingos relevance in the story gave him better feats because of that relevance, law's help>>>>>>>>>nami and some wood amande can oneshot.


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## Shrike (Feb 11, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Someone as irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story as Cracker pushed Luffy for 12 hours and would've beaten him without Nami and an entire forrest worth of help. And that's one of the guy Jack would have to face in a Yonko war



See, Luffy had help, but nowhere did it seem like Luffy could actually lose to Cracker, Nami or no Nami. The fight didn't ooze with tension one bit after Luffy started eating the guy's soldiers. Sure portrayal bla bla but I say the same - from what we can see even Oda didn't take the fight that seriously. Luffy was eating all the time and defeated a supposedly DD's equal with a bellyflop without actually taking a hit minus the sneak attack on the arm bit. He was a walking walrus for god's sake and Cracker couldn't do shit to him. His soldiers were getting eaten_ in front of him_ without damaging Luffy in any way in the process. Can you see it happening to Flamingo? Neither can I.

Homies were literally melting/dried out just by Cracker showing himself to them, don't tell me how they kept him for 12 hours and, as you usually say, had total control of the battlefield no matter who directed them. Fact is, Cracker couldn't touch Nami nor dispose of King Baum in 11 hours and his soldiers got debuffed by fucking rain. You call it what you want but I call bullshit on that. The whole fight was a total nonsense and a gag.

I agree with you 98% of the times Gyro, but this.. I can't take Cracker that seriously after, what I though, was a great introduction and a good start to a fight only for Oda to start going all comedy.


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## Clowe (Feb 11, 2017)

BM sent Cracker after Luffy knowing full well he had defeated Doflamingo.

Pretty clear cut to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 11, 2017)

Shrike said:


> See, Luffy had help, but nowhere did it seem like Luffy could actually lose to Cracker, Nami or no Nami. The fight didn't ooze with tension one bit after Luffy started eating the guy's soldiers. Sure portrayal bla bla but I say the same - from what we can see even Oda didn't take the fight that seriously. Luffy was eating all the time and defeated a supposedly DD's equal with a bellyflop without actually taking a hit minus the sneak attack on the arm bit. He was a walking walrus for god's sake and Cracker couldn't do shit to him. His soldiers were getting eaten_ in front of him_ without damaging Luffy in any way in the process. Can you see it happening to Flamingo? Neither can I.
> 
> Homies were literally melting/dried out just by Cracker showing himself to them, don't tell me how they kept him for 12 hours and, as you usually say, had total control of the battlefield no matter who directed them. Fact is, Cracker couldn't touch Nami nor dispose of King Baum in 11 hours and his soldiers got debuffed by fucking rain. You call it what you want but I call bullshit on that. The whole fight was a total nonsense and a gag.
> 
> I agree with you 98% of the times Gyro, but this.. I can't take Cracker that seriously after, what I though, was a great introduction and a good start to a fight only for Oda to start going all comedy.


 Cracker would have annihilated Luffy without Nami


----------



## zoro (Feb 11, 2017)

Shrike said:


> See, Luffy had help, but nowhere did it seem like Luffy could actually lose to Cracker, Nami or no Nami. The fight didn't ooze with tension one bit after Luffy started eating the guy's soldiers. Sure portrayal bla bla but I say the same - from what we can see even Oda didn't take the fight that seriously. Luffy was eating all the time and defeated a supposedly DD's equal with a bellyflop without actually taking a hit minus the sneak attack on the arm bit. He was a walking walrus for god's sake and Cracker couldn't do shit to him. His soldiers were getting eaten_ in front of him_ without damaging Luffy in any way in the process. Can you see it happening to Flamingo? Neither can I.
> 
> Homies were literally melting/dried out just by Cracker showing himself to them, don't tell me how they kept him for 12 hours and, as you usually say, had total control of the battlefield no matter who directed them. Fact is, Cracker couldn't touch Nami nor dispose of King Baum in 11 hours and his soldiers got debuffed by fucking rain. You call it what you want but I call bullshit on that. The whole fight was a total nonsense and a gag.
> 
> I agree with you 98% of the times Gyro, but this.. I can't take Cracker that seriously after, what I though, was a great introduction and a good start to a fight only for Oda to start going all comedy.



What about the part where he chose to run away rather than fight (that's Luffy we're talking about) and still had no idea how to win after they figured out Cracker's weakness? It didn't ooze with tension because Oda off-paneled it like he does now and that's a matter of perception anyway. I didn't think Doffy vs Luffy oozed with tension either. His soldiers were getting eaten because Nami softened them, I doubt they could've done much to Luffy in that state. And if you look at him post fight he's all fucked up. It's not huge cuts but he's still bruised and shit, and while he did relatively fine the fact that he barely did any damage to the enraged army speaks volume about the level of exhaustion he was operating at. A single round of G4 would've annihilated half of them but he didn't even have enough steam left in the tank to try that, and that's post-digestion of all the biscuits that made him a walrus

Yeah the homies feared Cracker. They feared Mom a lot more though and thus gave Nami and her vivre card total control over the battlefield. That's in the manga, in the chapter where Cracker gets defeated he threatens Balm and she threatens the homies back with the vivre card and -the important part- commands them to protect her. So yes, the homies protected Nami for twelve hours, it's in the manga

What we know is: Luffy admitted that he couldn't do shit to the biscuits soldiers because everytime he broke them they simply reassembled themselves, Cracker told us that Luffy used hit and run tactics, Nami was key in helping defeat the biscuits with her rain and the homies protected her, and the ultimate technique he used to defeat Cracker couldn't happen without Nami softening the biscuits

So, what's he supposed to do without her and the homies when he admitted that his classic arsenal was useless? 

Luffy vs Cracker 1on1 on neutral ground ends with Cracker's victory, that's how it was portrayed in the manga


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Feb 11, 2017)

After looking back at this panel Doflamingo fucked himself over by sending most of his awakening strings towards Luffy in attempt to finish him off which ended up giving Luffy an opening to attack while Doflamingo only had about two strings left to defend with.
Doffy could of won had he not tried to end it right there.


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## Shrike (Feb 11, 2017)

Gyro said:


> And if you look at him post fight he's all fucked up.



So-so. Most of the damage (or all of it beside the sneak slice) came from before he even went G4. Read the fight again. And Luffy started running and jumping all the way to Sanji shortly after that, all smiling and shit and full of energy, so I don't see anything life-threatening happened to him in the previous fight.



Gyro said:


> It's not huge cuts but he's still bruised and shit, and while he did relatively fine the fact that he barely did any damage to the enraged army speaks volume about the level of exhaustion he was operating at.



Sure, he was exhausted. But what about having the living shit kicked out of him by Sanji before the Enraged Army even came? Most of Luffy's damage came from Sanji, not from Cracker. Ironic, I know, but reread it if you have doubts. And even after that, he was still fighting one-vs-army, and it's not like they instantly broke him down.



Gyro said:


> A single round of G4 would've annihilated half of them but he didn't even have enough steam left in the tank to try that, and that's post-digestion of all the biscuits that made him a walrus



Yeah. You are saying that Luffy was too exhausted to go G4 vs an army after fighting for 11 hours, getting kicked by his friend. That's completely true and would be pretty stupid if he could pull off another G4 that could end his life.



Gyro said:


> Yeah the homies feared Cracker. They feared Mom a lot more though and thus gave Nami and her vivre card total control over the battlefield. That's in the manga, in the chapter where Cracker gets defeated he threatens Balm and she threatens the homies back with the vivre card and -the important part- commands them to protect her. So yes, the homies protected Nami for twelve hours, it's in the manga



Total control of the battlefield is something I am disputing the most from your claims. Homies and Baum were commanded to by Nami, sure, but it is also a fact that Cracker couldn't dispose of them for such a long time. They should be fodder to him for god's sake. Now comes to counter argument that Nami's rain makes his soldiers useless, right? That's beyond pathetic.



Gyro said:


> What we know is: Luffy admitted that he couldn't do shit to the biscuits soldiers because everytime he broke them they simply reassembled themselves, Cracker told us that Luffy used hit and run tactics, Nami was key in helping defeat the biscuits with her rain and the homies protected her, and the ultimate technique he used to defeat Cracker couldn't happen without Nami softening the biscuits



What we also know: Cracker couldn't put down Nami nor Baum for 11 hours even during Luffy's running away shenanigans. He also didn't so much as damage Luffy after his initial sneak attack and all the damage actually done to Luffy was during his G2/G3 phase.



Gyro said:


> So, what's he supposed to do without her and the homies when he admitted that his classic arsenal was useless?



When did he say that? Panel, please.



Gyro said:


> Luffy vs Cracker 1on1 on neutral ground ends with Cracker's victory, that's how it was portrayed in the manga



Assumption.


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## zoro (Feb 11, 2017)

Shrike said:


> So-so. Most of the damage (or all of it beside the sneak slice) came from before he even went G4. Read the fight again. And Luffy started running and jumping all the way to Sanji shortly after that, all smiling and shit and full of energy, so I don't see anything life-threatening happened to him in the previous fight.



Nope



Last time we saw him pre-off-paneling vs



post-fight





> Sure, he was exhausted. But what about having the living shit kicked out of him by Sanji before the Enraged Army even came? Most of Luffy's damage came from Sanji, not from Cracker. Ironic, I know, but reread it if you have doubts. And even after that, he was still fighting one-vs-army, and it's not like they instantly broke him down
> 
> Yeah. You are saying that Luffy was too exhausted to go G4 vs an army after fighting for 11 hours, getting kicked by his friend. That's completely true and would be pretty stupid if he could pull off another G4 that could end his life.



More stupid than not attempting it when he promised his friend he would stay there and not budge, and was ready to keep that promise despite the odds. This is the guy who was ready to rip off his own arms to keep that promise mind you. You really think he didn't go G4 because he feared for his life? That's out of character and inconsistent with how he's behaved this arc. And if the Cracker fight pushed him to a point where he couldn't use G4 after a dozen kicks by Sanji despite Nami and the Homie's help imagine how it'd have gone 1vs1 against Cracker 





> Total control of the battlefield is something I am disputing the most from your claims. Homies and Baum were commanded to by Nami, sure, but it is also a fact that Cracker couldn't dispose of them for such a long time. They should be fodder to him for god's sake. Now comes to counter argument that Nami's rain makes his soldiers useless, right? That's beyond pathetic.



He did dispose of some, hell even before Nami controlled them he destroyed a bunch by sending Luffy away. But there's literally thousands of them. It's an entire forest, not a dozen guys. They are fodder to him but they are numerous, they are controlled by the enemy, they can move around to make it harder for Cracker to find said enemy and the enemy can create illusions on top of it. Mom did complain a few chapters ago about her forest being destroyed

What's that about Nami's rain? I'm not sure what you mean. Her rain being effective is pathetic? 



> What we also know: Cracker couldn't put down Nami nor Baum for 11 hours even during Luffy's running away shenanigans. He also didn't so much as damage Luffy after his initial sneak attack and all the damage actually done to Luffy was during his G2/G3 phase.



See everything above 




> When did he say that? Panel, please.







> Assumption.



Corroborated by the manga


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## GucciBandana (Feb 12, 2017)

Barragan_Nnoitra said:


> He is the antagonist of a little arc and he is a subordinate of doflamingo like jack is one from kaidou (obviously jack>>>>>>clown). Also his portrayal is not like Doffy's just look how hard was that fight with law and luffy using everithing on him.
> 
> Doffy is a shishibukai like crocodile and remember what happened on marineford with him, he was clashing with the WB commanders, doflamingo, akainu etc, even when he was defeated by a no gears luffy. When the autor loves a character nonsense like that happens and I really enjoy it because I hate all those power lvl and feats things.
> 
> Remember 3 powers and shishibukai are one of those, also look at big moms crew even vergo and the seats could defeat a bunch of them thats why law's plan was to put doffy vs kaidou, doffy would get rekt but kaidou would lose people from his crew I mean even urogue defeated a commander. I think people overate commanders because of rayleigh and marco but those 2 are an exception they are fist mate of the stronger crews in history.



Rayleigh is impressive indeed, Marco not so much.


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## Divell (Feb 26, 2017)

Doflamingo should win in a high battle.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 9, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> During marineford doffy stopped a top 3 yonkou commander effortlessly.
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE)
> ...


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## GucciBandana (Mar 9, 2017)

@TheOnlyOne1

I just stated truth, it's what happened during marineford.

I don't believe doflamingo can beat yonko top commanders effortlessly, never hinted at that, I do believe doflamingo is stronger, but from what he did to jozu, it's clear that Jozu is anything but "clearly superior" to doflamingo, since G4 luffy, who I don't even consider clearly superior to doflamingo, broke out of parasite, has significantly better strength feats than jozu.


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## Muah (Mar 9, 2017)

He high diffs dofla and mid diffs the rest.


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## Yuki (Mar 10, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Rayleigh is impressive indeed, Marco not so much.



Yes yes, we all know about your stupid Marco hate.  Does not stop the fact he tango'ed with all 3 admirals in the war. Remember what WB suffered while doing the same thing? 

Either way, does not stop him from being the first commander of the WB Pirates and clearly the strongest behind WB himself. Anyone with even a little bit of reading comprehension can tell that Marco is a fking big deal and can tell that no SN is on that level yet.


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## Tenma (Mar 10, 2017)

DD's definitely stronger than Cracker, not sure about Jack but I'd lean yes also.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 10, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> @TheOnlyOne1
> 
> I just stated truth, it's what happened during marineford.
> 
> I don't believe doflamingo can beat yonko top commanders effortlessly, never hinted at that, I do believe doflamingo is stronger, but from what he did to jozu, it's clear that Jozu is anything but "clearly superior" to doflamingo, since G4 luffy, who I don't even consider clearly superior to doflamingo, broke out of parasite, has significantly better strength feats than jozu.



No you did not state the "truth". You are taking an incomplete and inconsistent scenario and misrepresenting it to fit your narrative. That feat and most war feats don't mean crap now. The war feats look vastly weaker compared to now. There is no "truth" because there are no actual feats or fights from either character to suggest either is superior.

But you can go based on the set up of the story. And that's where the top Yonkou commanders come in. They get more benefit than Doflamingo. And are already proving how they are superior with the hype and feats they are producing. That one feat which was not a one on one fight, means nothing in the greater context of the story.


That's doesn't at all suggest that Doflamingo can't defeat a Yonkou top commander. He might have an advantage against some. But that has less to do with capability and has more to do with matchups.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 10, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No you did not state the "truth". You are taking an incomplete and inconsistent scenario and misrepresenting it to fit your narrative. That feat and most war feats don't mean crap now. The war feats look vastly weaker compared to now. There is no "truth" because there are no actual feats or fights from either character to suggest either is superior.
> 
> But you can go based on the set up of the story. And that's where the top Yonkou commanders come in. They get more benefit than Doflamingo. And are already proving how they are superior with the hype and feats they are producing. That one feat which was not a one on one fight, means nothing in the greater context of the story.
> 
> ...



Why marineford feats don't mean crap now? Didn't most yonko top commander feats come from marineford anyways?

How does yonko top commander get benefit over doflamingo when one of them was defeated by urouge, a lower tier wg sn?



Juvia. said:


> Yes yes, we all know about your stupid Marco hate.  Does not stop the fact he tango'ed with all 3 admirals in the war. Remember what WB suffered while doing the same thing?
> 
> Either way, does not stop him from being the first commander of the WB Pirates and clearly the strongest behind WB himself. Anyone with even a little bit of reading comprehension can tell that Marco is a fking big deal and can tell that no SN is on that level yet.



Marco has shown lots of feat that puts him significantly below the admirals, while Rayleigh didn't, so the number of admirals he clashed with doesn't say much, none of those individual battles were dragged out like Jozu vs aokiji either.

Marco is first division commander but division number does not indicate strength ranking, I do believe Marco is indeed one of the strongest, most likely the strongest wb subordinate, but the difference is small, just like there's no clear pick for who's doflamingo strongest subordinate, most would prob pick vergo, like me, but a good amount would say it's pica, then you might get diamanté or trebol too a few times, it's not a clear cut.

Marco is a big deal, so are wg sn, people underestimate them significantly, all sn bar Bonney are yonko top commander level now, confirmed again by the hype Capone got recently, top tier sn are Marco level.

It's not just Marco, it's also 3 calamities, 4 sweet commanders, they aren't above wg sn, the 2 who get benefit of the doubt would be Beckmann and shilliew, since they seem to be a clear cut above the rest of their crew, specially Beckmann, confirmed first mate.


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## Yuki (Mar 10, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Marco has shown lots of feat that puts him significantly below the admirals, while Rayleigh didn't, so the number of admirals he clashed with doesn't say much, none of those individual battles were dragged out like Jozu vs aokiji either.
> 
> Marco is first division commander but division number does not indicate strength ranking, I do believe Marco is indeed one of the strongest, most likely the strongest wb subordinate, but the difference is small, just like there's no clear pick for who's doflamingo strongest subordinate, most would prob pick vergo, like me, but a good amount would say it's pica, then you might get diamanté or trebol too a few times, it's not a clear cut.
> 
> ...



Emm no, Marco's fight with Kizaru was longer than Jozu's fight with Kuzan.  Not only do we have more blows traded ON PANAL but it clearly lasted longer off panal as well. 

Clashing with all 3 admirals means nothing? Are you fking retarded?

Of fking course number means something.  Show me one other commander not in the top 5 comparable to anyone in the top 5. Oh wait, you can't.  And Marco is number 1. Not only did he give an order to Vista, but he was clearly the one tasked by WB to give orders to everyone else as well when he could not. 

Of course you fking think every other Yonko have first mates but WB does not.  Yonko are yonko, learn to fking read and realize ALL THE YONKO ARE AROUND THE SAME POWER OVERALL! That's why oh you know... they have been fighting each other for decades with no one coming out on top. 

Oh fking please. Say that when the third strongest commander of any yonko does not shit on the strongest SN. 

Cracker the third strongest BM commander > Luffy the strongest SN. 

Marco destroy's any SN, get over it.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 10, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Emm no, Marco's fight with Kizaru was longer than Jozu's fight with Kuzan.  Not only do we have more blows traded ON PANAL but it clearly lasted longer off panal as well.
> 
> Clashing with all 3 admirals means nothing? Are you fking retarded?
> 
> ...



Marco barely fought kizaru, their clash was very brief, only as long as it lasted on panel part, and it was never hinted they even met each other till wb had that heart attack.
While Jozu was fighting aokiji since he made aokiji bleed, until he was out and lost his arm, that's much longer than Marco vs kizaru, not even close.

Number does not indicate strength ranking was stated by oda in sbs. You want an example of no.1 commander not being strongest just look at burgess.

Marco did not give an order to vista, he asked for vistas assistance, same thing as when that wb pirates fodder asked a commander to move Jozu's unconscious body.

I don't think every other yonko has a first mate, from what we've seen so far,  kaido and big mom do not, just like wb, however they could since their entire crew isn't revealed yet, while shanks has one confirmed, and BB possibly has one but it's unclear.
Lacking a firstmate does not make ones crew any weaker, the crew can be stronger in other areas, like shanks has a first mate but clearly his crew is the smallest when it comes to number, wb doesn't have a fm but himself is worlds strongest man, and he has a very large fleet, big mom has 4 sweet commanders in comparisom to Kaido's 3 calamities. Not every yonko crew has to have the same structure.

Cracker is 3rd strongest BM commander says who? And he's not > luffy, luffy might or might not be the strongest sn, and definitely is not the best match up against cracker among the supernovas, he's a top tier sn for sure. While bottom tier sn defeated one of big moms top commanders, top tier sn beating other top commanders are logical and expected.


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## Yuki (Mar 10, 2017)

I'm done here. Too much bias and BS for me for one day.


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## Spirit King (Mar 17, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> No, I don't see your point. There are three calamities. We saw Oda's notebook. It says "Kaido...King...Queen...Jack". There's no mention of an Ace, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. Is it vaguely possible that Oda has changed his mind since writing that notebook, and won't be including Queen or King? I guess there's a slight chance?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same old shitty arguements. Doffy factually can't harm G4 Cracker can. He also has far better defence than Doffy and Luffy never managed to hit Cracker.

Oda made it clear who was the stronger between the two.

Overall Doffy is completely unable to handle G4. Cracker is stronger than G4 boundman.


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## barreltheif (Mar 17, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> Same old shitty arguements. Doffy factually *can't harm *G4 Cracker can. He also has far better defence than Doffy and Luffy never managed to hit Cracker.
> Oda made it clear who was the stronger between the two.
> Overall Doffy is completely* unable to handle* G4. Cracker is stronger than G4 boundman.



Doffy *defeated *G4 Luffy.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 17, 2017)

It's implied awakening could had harmed him otherwise Luffy spending the majority of his time in g4 dogging those strings wouldn't make sense.


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## Ekkologix (Mar 18, 2017)

Cracker only gave Luffy hard time cuz he was able to stall the entire G4 time without being in direct contact with G4 Luffy. But overall DD had alot more stronger offensive powers and threat to Luffy than Cracker but Cracker's defense in near invincible.

DD is definitely Yonkou 1st m8 to 3rd m8 level, DD vs Jack could go either way extreme diff depending on how strong is Jack.


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## Spirit King (Mar 18, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Doffy *defeated *G4 Luffy.


That's your arguement? Doffy litterally couldn't even scratch G4, Luffy managed to survive until the time limit. Still couldn't kill him because of help and then got his ass kicked by it. Your trolling he lost and clearly weaker than Cracker.



Go D. Usopp said:


> Cracker only gave Luffy hard time cuz he was able to stall the entire G4 time without being in direct contact with G4 Luffy. But overall DD had alot more stronger offensive powers and threat to Luffy than Cracker but Cracker's defense in near invincible.
> 
> DD is definitely Yonkou 1st m8 to 3rd m8 level, DD vs Jack could go either way extreme diff depending on how strong is Jack.


This is completely false. Dodgy can't hurt G4 Luffy. His halo in comparison to very big to top tiers is factually shit.
he has on panel awful offence at that level. Even in the war his Dps was shot that's why he relied on parasite. People need to accept that and stop ignoring blatant elements of the story.


----------



## trance (Mar 18, 2017)

Go D. Usopp said:


> overall DD had alot more stronger offensive powers and threat to Luffy than Cracker


 
>stronger CoA
>matched G4's attacks with his own
>actually penetrated G4's skin
>weaker offense than Doffy


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## barreltheif (Mar 18, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> That's your arguement? Doffy litterally couldn't even scratch G4 Luffy managed to survive until the time limit. Still couldn't kill him because of help and then got his ads kicked by it. Your trolling him lost and clearly weaker than Cracker.



I wasn't making an argument. I was simply stating the fact that Doflamingo defeated G4 Luffy. I can't decipher the rest of your post.


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## Spirit King (Mar 18, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> I wasn't making an argument. I was simply stating the fact that Doflamingo defeated G4 Luffy. I can't decipher the rest of your post.


He factually didn't.



Kyouko said:


> >stronger CoA
> >matched G4's attacks with his own
> >actually penetrated G4's skin
> >weaker offense than Doffy


Doffy fans have a tendency to make up random shit to hype doffy and do multiple rounds f mentally gymnastcs because for whatever reason the brain can't physically handle that he was portrayed weaker than Cracker. It just shuts down.


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## Ekkologix (Mar 18, 2017)

What destructive offensive feats does cracker has compared to Doffy? If cracker were to directly fight Luffy, G4 would sht on him but he has his biscuit soldiers buying time for him which doflamingo didn't have.

My point is a tired Doffy had to tank like huge amount of G4 beating and still manages to wake up making Luffy run for 10 minutes before taking another round of G4. Meanwhile cracker barely tanked any direct G4 hits. It'really simple, Cracker's DF does really good against Luffy's G4 cuz it buys him time not cuz it actually threatens to kill Luffy.

This makes cracker looks like he has more offensive power cuz he depletes Luffy's stamina but in actuality it's just his strong defense and counter structure that's hurting Luffy. Meanwhile Doffy's awakening and strings arsenal definitely pack more offensive power maybe not to G4 Luffy but overall it does.


----------



## Spirit King (Mar 18, 2017)

Go D. Usopp said:


> What destructive offensive feats does cracker has compared to Doffy? If cracker were to directly fight Luffy, G4 would sht on him but he has his biscuit soldiers buying time for him which doflamingo didn't have.
> 
> My point is a tired Doffy had to tank like huge amount of G4 beating and still manages to wake up making Luffy run for 10 minutes before taking another round of G4. Meanwhile cracker barely tanked any direct G4 hits. It'really simple, Cracker's DF does really good against Luffy's G4 cuz it buys him time not cuz it actually threatens to kill Luffy.
> 
> This makes cracker looks like he has more offensive power cuz he depletes Luffy's stamina but in actuality it's just his strong defense and counter structure that's hurting Luffy. Meanwhile Doffy's awakening and strings arsenal definitely pack more offensive power maybe not to G4 Luffy but overall it does.


No it wouldn't by basic manga feats that's false, Luffy would have got his ass completely kicked without Nami that's a fact. He fought an entire night with cracker using G4 did not manage to scratch him. Doffy almost lost against the first round of G4 got his ass beat by G4 on the second round. That same form *couldn't not scratch Cracker for an entire night with help. *Hell could only last as long as he did by eating them (with nami's help) Not actually fight them.*
*
Cracker is decisively stronger than Gear 4 boundman. Doffy is decisuvely fodder to G4. He can't even scratch that form block and attack against it or take hit without being ragdolled. Anything else is fanboy fantasy.

How does It overall. Awakenings feats are pretty shit. AoE damage is worthless against high to top tiers damage potency is all that matters when haki is involved. Crackers attacks would do more damage to a high/top tier than doffy's does that's a fact. Even in war where all of doffy's best feats against top tiers comes from he didn't personally damage any commander level character to a meaningul degree. His offense and defense is quite simply shit at that level which is why he's forced to rely on hax.


----------



## Ekkologix (Mar 18, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> No it wouldn't by basic manga feats that's false, Luffy would have got his ass completely kicked without Nami that's a fact. He fought an entire night with cracker using G4 did not manage to scratch him. Doffy almost lost against the first round of G4 got his ass beat by G4 on the second round. That same form *couldn't not scratch Cracker for an entire night with help. *Hell could only last as long as he did by eating them (with nami's help) Not actually fight them.
> 
> Cracker is decisively stronger than Gear 4 boundman. Doffy is decisuvely fodder to G4. He can't even scratch that form block and attack against it or take hit without being ragdolled. Anything else is fanboy fantasy.
> 
> How does It overall. Awakenings feats are pretty shit. AoE damage is worthless against high to top tiers damage potency is all that matters when haki is involved. Crackers attacks would do more damage to a high/top tier than doffy's does that's a fact. Even in war where all of doffy's best feats against top tiers comes from he didn't personally damage any commander level character to a meaningul degree. His offense and defense is quite simply shit at that level which is why he's forced to rely on hax.



You can't compare an enemy that needed Luffy + Law to one that needed Luffy + Nami to beat. Doffy suffered huge damage from Law and straight out tanked an entire round of G4 and was still up. A healthy Doffy would destroy a healthy Luffy specially if Luffy didn't get fodders help. 

I see where you are coming from tho and your point works if Luffy has unlimited G4 which would indeed dumpster Doffy more than Cracker but that's mainly cuz Cracker's ability works great against Luffy's G4 not cuz Cracker is straight out stronger than DD. If Cracker has to tank a round of G4 like DD he would get knocked the fk off faster than DD judging from his endurance feats. He has good stamina but not the best endurance out there.

So the trick is if anyone has an ability to bypass Crackers biscuit soldier's defense and get to the main body right away they would be able to beat him easier than beating DD. Say for example someone like Law would have easier time fighting Cracker than DD (not saying he can beat Cracker, but he will just do better against Cracker than DD)


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## Spirit King (Mar 18, 2017)

Go D. Usopp said:


> You can't compare an enemy that needed Luffy + Law to one that needed Luffy + Nami to beat. Doffy suffered huge damage from Law and straight out tanked an entire round of G4 and was still up. A healthy Doffy would destroy a healthy Luffy specially if Luffy didn't get fodders help.
> 
> I see where you are coming from tho and your point works if Luffy has unlimited G4 which would indeed dumpster Doffy more than Cracker but that's mainly cuz Cracker's ability works great against Luffy's G4 not cuz Cracker is straight out stronger than DD. If Cracker has to tank a round of G4 like DD he would get knocked the fk off faster than DD judging from his endurance feats. He has good stamina but not the best endurance out there.
> 
> So the trick is if anyone has an ability to bypass Crackers biscuit soldier's defense and get to the main body right away they would be able to beat him easier than beating DD. Say for example someone like Law would have easier time fighting Cracker than DD (not saying he can beat Cracker, but he will just do better against Cracker than DD)



That wouldn't mean anything keep in mind Luffy didn't manage to land a hit on Cracker when his soldiers were soggy enough to be eaten. For an entire night. If it wasn't for a mode in which Luffy litterally reflected crackers own attack against him he wouldn't have won. Doffy in a similar position (his strings signfiantly weakened) would have got his ass trashed even faster against any oponent worth their salt let alone G4.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 19, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> No it wouldn't by basic manga feats that's false, Luffy would have got his ass completely kicked without Nami that's a fact. He fought an entire night with cracker using G4 did not manage to scratch him. Doffy almost lost against the first round of G4 got his ass beat by G4 on the second round. That same form *couldn't not scratch Cracker for an entire night with help. *Hell could only last as long as he did by eating them (with nami's help) Not actually fight them.
> 
> Cracker is decisively stronger than Gear 4 boundman. Doffy is decisuvely fodder to G4. He can't even scratch that form block and attack against it or take hit without being ragdolled. Anything else is fanboy fantasy.
> 
> How does It overall. Awakenings feats are pretty shit. AoE damage is worthless against high to top tiers damage potency is all that matters when haki is involved. Crackers attacks would do more damage to a high/top tier than doffy's does that's a fact. Even in war where all of doffy's best feats against top tiers comes from he didn't personally damage any commander level character to a meaningul degree. His offense and defense is quite simply shit at that level which is why he's forced to rely on hax.



Any evidence luffy was in G4 after He started eating the biscuits?

G4 luffy is clearly stronger than cracker as crackers biscuit soldier crumbles after 1-2 hits, and their attacks get overpowered by a regular kong gun the same style doflamingo last attack against kkg.

On panel awakening doflamingo offence vs G4 > cracker offence vs G4, cracker cut G4 luffy arm with a sneak attack, luffy was off guard since he didn't know cracker had a main body, while doflamingo awakening strings made G4 luffy bleed just by SCRATCHING him, face to face.


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## Spirit King (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Any evidence luffy was in G4 after He started eating the biscuits?
> 
> G4 luffy is clearly stronger than cracker as crackers biscuit soldier crumbles after 1-2 hits, and their attacks get overpowered by a regular kong gun the same style doflamingo last attack against kkg.
> 
> On panel awakening doflamingo offence vs G4 > cracker offence vs G4, cracker cut G4 luffy arm with a sneak attack, luffy was off guard since he didn't know cracker had a main body, while doflamingo awakening strings made G4 luffy bleed just by SCRATCHING him, face to face.


This is nonsense. G4 means Luffy is covered in Haki. He has CoO. Doffy's litteral fighting is that he fights with thousands of tiny wires from all directions do you really think Luffy was on guard all the time against those attacks. Fact of the matter is we have on panel proof stating Doffy CANNOT penetrate G4. Anything else is pure fanfiction which Doffy fans absolutely love to engage it.

His offence is factually and on panel awful. Cracker on panel has penetrated G4. Why do you think it required and entirely different form for Luffy to defeat him and not simply boundman? If you were right boundman would be enough. Your arguement doesn't make a lick of logical sense.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 19, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> This is nonsense. G4 means Luffy is covered in Haki. He has CoO. Doffy's litteral fighting is that he fights with thousands of tiny wires from all directions do you really think Luffy was on guard all the time against those attacks. Fact of the matter is we have on panel proof stating Doffy CANNOT penetrate G4. Anything else is pure fanfiction which Doffy fans absolutely love to engage it.
> 
> His offence is factually and on panel awful. Cracker on panel has penetrated G4. Why do you think it required and entirely different form for Luffy to defeat him and not simply boundman? If you were right boundman would be enough. Your arguement doesn't make a lick of logical sense.





This was posted on page 2.

Luffy was so severely wounded(confirmed by the marines) from the fight against doflamingo to the point he had to sleep for 3 days, doflamingo, who took that kkg to end the fight, woke up before luffy did, compare to taking a nap and went to pick up sanji after fighting cracker, of course doflamingo damaged him more.

We got on panel feat of doflamingo unable to hurt G4 luffy BEFORE doflamingo entered awakening mode, it's like saying luffy has on panel feat of unable to hurt doflamingo with g2 or G3, then it proves luffy can never hurt doflamingo.

Luffy used another form to defeat cracker because he cannot function boundman after eating that much.
It was never stated boundman was enough or not:
1. Boundman(G4 in general) has a time limit, luffy enter a very weakened state after using it, since luffy had to explain to nami that G4 takes a lot of energy after the fight, it's safe to assume nami did not get to witness G4 wear off and forcing luffy into the weakened state, thus luffy did not use boundman to its limit like he did against doflamingo.

2. We saw luffy eating biscuit, in his normal state, not G4 state, which by logic, we can assume this is how he eats the biscuits, and this is how he ate thise biscuits for that past 11 hours, since nami got there.

Combining those 2, the most logical conclusion is luffy likely used bound man for a few minutes, then nami arrived, luffy returned back to normal state and started eating the biscuits.


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## zoro (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> This was posted on page 2.
> 
> Luffy was so severely wounded(confirmed by the marines) from the fight against doflamingo to the point he had to sleep for 3 days, doflamingo, who took that kkg to end the fight, woke up before luffy did, compare to taking a nap and went to pick up sanji after fighting cracker, of course doflamingo damaged him more.
> 
> ...



So Luffy, after finding a way to weaken Cracker's biscuits, didn't try to beat him with G4 for 11 hours? How does that make any sense?


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 19, 2017)

Gyro said:


> So Luffy, after finding a way to weaken Cracker's biscuits, didn't try to beat him with G4 for 11 hours? How does that make any sense?


It doesn't but that is what seemed to happen anyway.

It would make even less sense if he did sense the scene we come back to is obese Luffy facing Cracker rather than g4 or Luffy's regular self.

Blame Oda for off-paneling the bulk of the fight in favor of Sanji's sob story.


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## Spirit King (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> This was posted on page 2.
> 
> Luffy was so severely wounded(confirmed by the marines) from the fight against doflamingo to the point he had to sleep for 3 days, doflamingo, who took that kkg to end the fight, woke up before luffy did, compare to taking a nap and went to pick up sanji after fighting cracker, of course doflamingo damaged him more.
> 
> ...


Yes and Luffy broke through that litterally pages later with a more powerful attack (that was one of his weaker ones. Your point exactly?

It's a manga fact that Luffy was trying to run away meaning even with Gear 4 and in Crackers soldiers being weakened he could not break through.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 19, 2017)

Gyro said:


> So Luffy, after finding a way to weaken Cracker's biscuits, didn't try to beat him with G4 for 11 hours? How does that make any sense?



Maybe luffy loves to eat(that he does), by the time he had enough biscuits and wants to finish the fight, he's already in that walrus state unable to move properly thus eliminating boundman as an option.

This is how oda drew the fight thou, even if it feels far fetched and doesn't make that much sense, I'm just deciphering what oda gave me.



Spirit King said:


> Yes and Luffy broke through that litterally pages later with a more powerful attack (that was one of his weaker ones. Your point exactly?
> 
> It's a manga fact that Luffy was trying to run away meaning even with Gear 4 and in Crackers soldiers being weakened he could not break through.



My point is doflamingo made g4 luffy bleed, in face to face combat, just by partially landing that attack/scratching him.

Luffy was running away from cracker, but from what we saw, not in G4 state, but in walrus state.
G4 has a time limit and a nasty draw back, it doesn't make sense for him to run away in G4 anyways.


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## zoro (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Maybe luffy loves to eat(that he does), by the time he had enough biscuits and wants to finish the fight, he's already in that walrus state unable to move properly thus eliminating boundman as an option.
> 
> This is how oda drew the fight thou, even if it feels far fetched and doesn't make that much sense, I'm just deciphering what oda gave me.



No, Oda drew the fight as Luffy being on the defensive for 11 hours. That's what he chose to portray, despite Luffy having a huge advantage in Nami and the homies. The only time we saw G4 he couldn't power through the armors fast enough to hit Cracker. Then he ran away. That's Luffy we're talking about, he doesn't run away if he knows he can win, especially when his crewmate's well-being is on the line


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## Spirit King (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Maybe luffy loves to eat(that he does), by the time he had enough biscuits and wants to finish the fight, he's already in that walrus state unable to move properly thus eliminating boundman as an option.
> 
> This is how oda drew the fight thou, even if it feels far fetched and doesn't make that much sense, I'm just deciphering what oda gave me.
> 
> ...


How exactly does that panel show blood. Oda is far more explicit in terms of damage than that.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 19, 2017)

Gyro said:


> No, Oda drew the fight as Luffy being on the defensive for 11 hours. That's what he chose to portray, despite Luffy having a huge advantage in Nami and the homies. The only time we saw G4 he couldn't power through the armors fast enough to hit Cracker. Then he ran away. That's Luffy we're talking about, he doesn't run away if he knows he can win, especially when his crewmate's well-being is on the line



Yes luffy was on defensive end, in his gearless states with extra weight to the point he can barely move.
Nami's well being was not threatened during any point of the fight, at least not hinted.
Regardless, luffy did not use G4 for very long in this fight.



Spirit King said:


> How exactly does that panel show blood. Oda is far more explicit in terms of damage than that.



Then what else can that dark area be? At the exact point of impact.
Oda draws off panel damage all the time, like sabo vs fujitora, which is even less explicit than the panel I just showed you.


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## zoro (Mar 19, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Yes luffy was on defensive end, in his gearless states with extra weight to the point he can barely move.
> Nami's well being was not threatened during any point of the fight, at least not hinted.
> Regardless, luffy did not use G4 for very long in this fight.



No, that's how he was after Nami discovered Cracker's weakness. We don't know when into the fight she did. What matter is that Luffy couldn't win with Boundman. Otherwise he would have 

Nami was threatened, that's why she told the homies to protect her. King Balm was missing the top of his head, Cracker obviously went after her too. Without the homies she'd have been toast and without her Luffy would've died as well


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## GucciBandana (Mar 19, 2017)

Gyro said:


> No, that's how he was after Nami discovered Cracker's weakness. We don't know when into the fight she did. What matter is that Luffy couldn't win with Boundman. Otherwise he would have
> 
> Nami was threatened, that's why she told the homies to protect her. King Balm was missing the top of his head, Cracker obviously went after her too. Without the homies she'd have been toast and without her Luffy would've died as well



Saying ”luffy couldn't win with boundman" indicates that he's done all he can with boundman, which is not true, since not only we saw just 2 attacks from his boundman form(1 most basic boundman attack and 1 Gatling version of it, no kkg), on top of that it was indicated luffy did not enter his weakened state after boundman, which means luffy did not push to his boundman limit or even close to it. Thus whether luffy could win with boundman or not was unclear, unlike luffy's first round of boundman vs doflamingo, where we clearly saw the limit of boundman and the fact luffy could not win.

The homies protected nami well, nami was pretty much unscratched after the fight, which means cracker tried to attack her, but she managed to remain unthreatened, in other words nami's life wasn't in danger in this fight, cracker failed to make an effective attempt at nami's well being.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 20, 2017)

Cracker > Doffy > Jack is the correct chain


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## X18999 (Mar 20, 2017)

People thinking that panel is Doffy hurting Luffy is reaching further than Luffy can... that just a shadow of Luffy bouncing off the string after it hit him.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 21, 2017)

1) Jack mid diff
2) Jack low diff
3) Jack high diff

On a side note, I REALLY want to see Awakened Zoan Jack.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 21, 2017)

Khris said:


> It's still possible to hit the ship first and then Jack. The trunk's hardness and size relative to the ships pales in comparison, it's like if I kicked a paper boat with a chick standing on it. Jack got a direct hit. At the very worst Jack survived the impact, which taking into considering the size, hardness, and force is still just as impressive.


Zunisha also seems to be on that next level shit.
1) God tier kenbunshoku when he sensed momo on him to communicate and give momo direct vision of what he himself saw to give him intel on the conflict/trouble at hand.
2) Walking for over 1000 fucking years.


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## trance (Mar 21, 2017)

>this thread
>8 pages

but y tho?


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## GucciBandana (Mar 21, 2017)

X18999 said:


> People thinking that panel is Doffy hurting Luffy is reaching further than Luffy can... that just a shadow of Luffy bouncing off the string after it hit him.



It must be a coincidence the dark area aka shadow is exactly at the point of impact then. Honestly claiming it's haki would be a slightly better attempt.
Yeah, like Oda would draw a shadow specifically out of everything in an action panel, well he could, then might as well draw it for all the other action panels too, yet doflamingo has formed white strings similar to that attack numerals times, and how many times did oda draw a "shadow" on it?


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## Spirit King (Mar 22, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> It must be a coincidence the dark area aka shadow is exactly at the point of impact then. Honestly claiming it's haki would be a slightly better attempt.
> Yeah, like Oda would draw a shadow specifically out of everything in an action panel, well he could, then might as well draw it for all the other action panels too, yet doflamingo has formed white strings similar to that attack numerals times, and how many times did oda draw a "shadow" on it?


What on earth are you on about. Luffy is a rubber man simply hitting means Jack shot as that fight displace. You need to show actual explicit displays of blood not impacts with Doffy's awakening.

Blood is liquid you do know that right.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 23, 2017)

Spirit King said:


> What on earth are you on about. Luffy is a rubber man simply hitting means Jack shot as that fight displace. You need to show actual explicit displays of blood not impacts with Doffy's awakening.
> 
> Blood is liquid you do know that right.



And what do you think the dark area around the impact symbol is then? Or how do you think red liquid such as blood would look like staining white strings.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 29, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Why marineford feats don't mean crap now? Didn't most yonko top commander feats come from marineford anyways?
> 
> How does yonko top commander get benefit over doflamingo when one of them was defeated by urouge, a lower tier wg sn?



No they didn't. The war feats don't mean crap because everyone and their mother, including Sai, have better or equal feats. That's how shounen manga work. As time goes the feats and characters become stronger and faster. The war was the half way point and Oda was only scratching the surface. You are confusing portrayal and hype with feats. We have much better and concrete feats now. And it's from legitimate 1 vs 1 fights. Like Akainu vs Aokiji is a legitimate 10 day stamina feat. Not 1 kick here and one punch there. The war was used to showcase the top without revealing too much. Why do you think the Admiral, Yonkou, Sabo, and strongest Yonkou commander fights are still off paneled? It's too keep the mystery of the fighters until a certain point. Anyways, the most feats commanders have are from Jack and Cracker. And guess what? They are still off paneled for a reason. They are just that strong  and have to maintain that mystery for their peers, other Yonkou commanders. 


As for your other comment about why the top Yonkou commanders get the benefit when Big Moms 4th commander lost is an insanely screwed up logic. There are several reasons for your logic being insane. 
1) You are equating all the commanders together. If Cracker is a 5 and is a top commander that doesn't mean Smoothie and Katakuri HAVE to be 5 as well simply because they share titles. Smoothie can be 6 and Katakuri a 7. 
2) Just because he was a Sweet Commander doesn't mean he was a "Top commander". The 4th commander would be the 5th strongest of the crew. So sharing a title with the other 4 wouldn't mean anything. Franky or Robin could be the 4th strongest in the Strawhat crew. That doesn't mean anything when you compare them to the monster trio. The monster trio are a level above the rest. Just like that, Commander sugar or whoever could be the 4th commander and yet be a level apart from the other 3 commanders. 
3) The most important reason is the fact that we know nothing about the fight or the characters. You are passing things off as facts that we know nothing about. And even if the 4th commander is weaker than Doflamingo it means absolutely nothing.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 29, 2017)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Cracker only gave Luffy hard time cuz he was able to stall the entire G4 time without being in direct contact with G4 Luffy. But overall DD had alot more stronger offensive powers and threat to Luffy than Cracker but Cracker's defense in near invincible.
> 
> DD is definitely Yonkou 1st m8 to 3rd m8 level, DD vs Jack could go either way extreme diff depending on how strong is Jack.


You just completely made that up. 
1) We didn't see the fight and that stalling you speak of. 
2) We know for a FACT that Luffy actually stalled by running away and getting help. Those are facts. You can't go against that. 
Don't make stuff up. It's insulting to everyone you are talking to. 

Alright. I'm done with this argument. The crazy logic and false things people are using to argue are just over the top.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 29, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No they didn't. The war feats don't mean crap because everyone and their mother, including Sai, have better or equal feats. That's how shounen manga work. As time goes the feats and characters become stronger and faster. The war was the half way point and Oda was only scratching the surface. You are confusing portrayal and hype with feats. We have much better and concrete feats now. And it's from legitimate 1 vs 1 fights. Like Akainu vs Aokiji is a legitimate 10 day stamina feat. Not 1 kick here and one punch there. The war was used to showcase the top without revealing too much. Why do you think the Admiral, Yonkou, Sabo, and strongest Yonkou commander fights are still off paneled? It's too keep the mystery of the fighters until a certain point. Anyways, the most feats commanders have are from Jack and Cracker. And guess what? They are still off paneled for a reason. They are just that strong  and have to maintain that mystery for their peers, other Yonkou commanders.
> 
> 
> As for your other comment about why the top Yonkou commanders get the benefit when Big Moms 4th commander lost is an insanely screwed up logic. There are several reasons for your logic being insane.
> ...



What type of feats are you talking about? Aokiji ice age and wb tsunami is still the largest aoe feats up to date, and akainu 10 day stamina/endurance just makes wb knocking him down that much more impressive.

Clearly me and you have very different opinions on why oda skips fights, most va fights were skipped during mf, they are just that strong too I guess? Oda skips parts of most fight scene anyways, even like final fights of a long arc like luffy vs doflamingo.

1. Doesn't mean they are 5, but means they can close to 5, including on the lower side of 5, like 4.6, 4.7.

2. Robin and franky of bm pirates will never get sweet commander title, just like nobody refers robin or franky as monster trio or monster quadrio. You know strawhat is like 1/10 of the size of big mom's crew right? Like the 10th strongest member on big mom pirates is still very strong, while strawhat don't even have a 10th member yet. Simple reasoning, the fact big mom made not 2 not 3 not 5 sweet commanders to begin with, meaning the 4 of them aren't that different in power, and clearly above the rest, unless he's a sweet commander for a very unique reason which is a baseless assumption at this point.

3. He's not just weaker than doflamingo, he's much weaker, since he's weaker than urouge.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 29, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> What type of feats are you talking about? Aokiji ice age and wb tsunami is still the largest aoe feats up to date, and akainu 10 day stamina/endurance just makes wb knocking him down that much more impressive.
> 
> Clearly me and you have very different opinions on why oda skips fights, most va fights were skipped during mf, they are just that strong too I guess? Oda skips parts of most fight scene anyways, even like final fights of a long arc like luffy vs doflamingo.
> 
> ...



No it's not. Aokiji freezing a part of the ocean for a week was the largest AoE. And AOE doesn't mean anything based on what we are talking about. That's the nature of Aokiji's fruit. He will always have AOE. Also in that very same war Aokiji's attack was equally matched by Ace. That must mean Ace = Aokiji? Since we are taking the feats at face value. 

Clearly you are picking at the point as stand alone. That idea was part of a larger set of ideas. It all connects together. Don't just separate it. 

1) So? You missed the point. Don't speak about irrelevant things. The point was, you are somehow equating the defeat of one commander to the rest as if they are a singular group with each individual being the exact same as the other. Which proves how insane your logic is. You didn't address that and deliberately shifted. 

2) No it's not a baseless assumption. YOU assuming that the 4th commander has to be even on the same level as the other 3 is baseless. And I have proven why that is baseless based on other pirate crew power structure. People can be the next in line for being the strongest and can be levels apart from the next strongest. So to assume the 4th commander HAS to be on the same level as the other 3 is deeply flawed. And there can be many reasons for there being 4 commanders. One of which being power. Again, the four can be stronger than the rest but still be levels apart from each others. It is logically flawed to assume otherwise. And I made a claim and backed up what I said. Now you made the claim, so please back it up. Show me anything from the manga to back up your claim, not your gut feeling about "There must be a reason". Your feelings don't matter. And if you can't. You lost the argument. Let it go. 

3) You are just saying stuff for the sake of saying them. Without any reasoning, manga structure, or facts. This is called trolling. You can't use an unknown fight about unknown characters to state "Doflamingo is a lot stronger because Urogue". 
First of all, you can't even prove Urouge is weaker. Second of all you can't prove the 4th commander is weaker. And third you can't prove anything about the fight between Urogue and the 4th commander. Please enlighten me on how that fight went down. Please do. I'll be waiting. This is completely trolling. Please don't deny it. This is definitely trolling. 

I'll give you what your argument is all about "I like Doflamingo. Doflamingo is stronger. I don't care about factual manga structures, I don't care about good logical deductions, I don't care about the feats and how they are connected to the story over all, I just know Doflamingo is stronger and I will claim it without actually building up on it".


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## GucciBandana (Mar 29, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No it's not. Aokiji freezing a part of the ocean for a week was the largest AoE. And AOE doesn't mean anything based on what we are talking about. That's the nature of Aokiji's fruit. He will always have AOE. Also in that very same war Aokiji's attack was equally matched by Ace. That must mean Ace = Aokiji? Since we are taking the feats at face value.
> 
> Clearly you are picking at the point as stand alone. That idea was part of a larger set of ideas. It all connects together. Don't just separate it.
> 
> ...



The ice age I was referring to was actually him freezing the ocean, since he did use ice age. Wb tsunami was coming from very far too, not just the size of the tides.
Anyways my point is aokiji freezing the ocean was pre time skip, and how does that compare to anything post time skip?

Ace being a high yonko commander, I don't see why him cancelling out aokiji attacks is anything special,
It's like Marco block kizaru and jozu block mihawk, doesn't mean they are as strong as each other, just mean they are able to deal with some of each other's attacks.

I never said the sweet commander urouge defeated is the exact same strength as the other 3, however, he's a sweet commander.

2. It is you using your gut feeling that a 4th commander must be weak for some reason, it was never stated anything like close to that, the 4th commander, by default, is in the same league as the other 3, unless proven otherwise. Why else would oda make him a sweet commander? Well there can be many other reasons, but were they stated? No.
You are the one assuming he must be weak, or weaker than the other 3, in fact he could be stronger than somebody like smoothie, since there aren't any evidence that he's weaker.

Lol I'm going by exactly manga facts, urouge defeated Snack, Snack is a sweet commander, urouge is a [Blocked Domain] sn, doflamingo is stronger than some of the strongest [Blocked Domain] sn, like luffy and law individually, therefore doflamingo >>> snack.
I don't know what went down between snack vs urouge exactly, neither do you, maybe kaido or akainu came to help him, or maybe urouge became much stronger than luffy, there's that possibility, however it was not stated, then I go by default, which was what info was provided, urouge beat his ass.


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## zoro (Mar 29, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Lol I'm going by exactly manga facts, urouge defeated Snack, Snack is a sweet commander, urouge is a [Blocked Domain] sn, doflamingo is stronger than some of the strongest [Blocked Domain] sn, like luffy and law individually, therefore doflamingo >>> snack.
> I don't know what went down between snack vs urouge exactly, neither do you, maybe kaido or akainu came to help him, or maybe urouge became much stronger than luffy, there's that possibility, however it was not stated, then I go by default, which was what info was provided, urouge beat his ass.



What about Cracker beating Urouge and being clearly stronger than Luffy? Wouldn't that mean the commanders can vary greatly in strength and that Doffy and Cracker are equals at worst?


*Spoiler*: __ 



It does

Reactions: Like 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 29, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> The ice age I was referring to was actually him freezing the ocean, since he did use ice age. Wb tsunami was coming from very far too, not just the size of the tides.
> Anyways my point is aokiji freezing the ocean was pre time skip, and how does that compare to anything post time skip?
> 
> Ace being a high yonko commander, I don't see why him cancelling out aokiji attacks is anything special,
> ...


Yet again you are saying stupid shit.

Urouge's strength is a complete unknown and luffy clearly is > Doflamingo or at least = to him.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2017)

Jack. Can't. Do. Shit. To. Doffy.

>no range
>can't fly
>similar stamina

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 30, 2017)

@GucciBandana 
Once again, Aokiji's is irrelevant. AOE is the nature of his fruit. You can't compare the different fruits with the same standard. Don't make statements that you can't back up. We don't know if we can place Ace with the likes of Cracker.

Thats not how this works. Once again! I backed up what I said. You made the claim so you back it up. Show me where, who, or what is Snack. How powerful he or she is. How powerful is Urouge. And what happened in that fight. If you can't. You have no arguments. And you aren't using facts, those are conjectures, terrible ones at that. You are using flawed logic. Let me give you manga facts. Akainu and Aokiji are near equals. That's a fact because that fight actually happened. 

So you might ask how can you say Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. That's because we have back to back feats for both characters fighting the same character. Furthermore, it's a shounen trope that protagonists become stronger after a hard fight. Which is also a part of the OP story where Luffy gets stronger by the arc. Which is another point in favor of Cracker. So based on both of their performances we can safely assume Cracker>Doflamingo. Those are known as proper feats and logic. And the Yonkou are in a stalemate. So you have to assume the strongest fighters under them are relatively on the same power structure since they are not a singular organization. They are 4 different organizations. 

Doflamingo is not stronger than Luffy and Law is debatable. But he is factually weaker than G4 Luffy by a significant gap.

Now once again, seriously, you are making the statements about the 4th commander, Urougue, and Doffy. So provide something from the manga that relates to Doffy or anything at all. We already covered your illogical approach to equate to Cracker means nothing and neither does the 4th commander being weaker relate to Cracker. We go based on Cracker and Jacks feats not an an unknown fight with two unknown fighters. That's not how arguments, logic or "facts" work.


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## GucciBandana (Mar 30, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Yet again you are saying stupid shit.
> 
> Urouge's strength is a complete unknown and luffy clearly is > Doflamingo or at least = to him.



Doflamingo is clearly stronger than luffy in single combat.



Gyro said:


> What about Cracker beating Urouge and being clearly stronger than Luffy? Wouldn't that mean the commanders can vary greatly in strength and that Doffy and Cracker are equals at worst?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Cracker clearly beat urouge the same style enraged army beat luffy, oda even made the parallel comparison.

Urouge was likely heavily wounded after the fight, since snack is a damn sweet commander, cracker was fresh,  and had a huge fleet as well as Zeus Prometheus with him, so it's not an 1 on 1 or even close. Of course urouge would lose, if luffy loses to a bunch of 5k punch KOed or Vito KOed dudes after fighting cracker, what do you expect from urouge?

Cracker is not stronger than luffy.



TheOnlyOne1 said:


> @GucciBandana
> Once again, Aokiji's is irrelevant. AOE is the nature of his fruit. You can't compare the different fruits with the same standard. Don't make statements that you can't back up. We don't know if we can place Ace with the likes of Cracker.
> 
> Thats not how this works. Once again! I backed up what I said. You made the claim so you back it up. Show me where, who, or what is Snack. How powerful he or she is. How powerful is Urouge. And what happened in that fight. If you can't. You have no arguments. And you aren't using facts, those are conjectures, terrible ones at that. You are using flawed logic. Let me give you manga facts. Akainu and Aokiji are near equals. That's a fact because that fight actually happened.
> ...



Of course aokiji aoe is irrelevant to you, since you claim all pre time skip feats don't mean crap, how about give some reasons? Or gimme a aoe feat as impressive aokiji's?

You were the one talking about set up of the story first now you switching for concrete back up? Lemme tell facts then, urouge beat snack.
If you wanna believe oda made snack a sweet commander just to be much weaker than the rest of them, or made urouge a supernova just to be much stronger than the rest, that's up to you, but that's the set up of the story.

Now you wanna talk about shounen trope lol, if you wanna go that route, about doflamingo was the final villain for a long ass arc, while cracker is a mini boss like chinjao, with little to no importance compare to doflamingo. If oda truly believed in what you stated, why would he create "mf croc"? 

You don't wanna assume snack is cracker level based off their sweet commander title, yet you gonna assume yonko underlings are relatively on the same power structure, clear double standard.

Doflamingo is stronger than luffy in single combat, not weaker than G4 by a significant gap, in fact awakening dd and G4 luffy without going G4+G3 are pretty equally matched with luffy having slight upper hand.

I stated something from the manga relates to doflamingo with my first reply to you, doflamingo stopped a top 3 yonko commander effortlessly during mf. Well it's irrelevant to you thou without any logical reasoning.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 30, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Doflamingo is clearly stronger than luffy in single combat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cracker beat urouge after he defeated Snack and possibly some others. Cracker also would have defeated Luffy even if Luffy was fresh.

Honestly I think you're underestimating the other supernova, I view them as characters stronger than Luffy pre timeskip who gained strength but not as much so it equalizes some. For example urouge and drake showed at least equality between themselves (individually) and a pacifista which took the entire strawhat crew pre timeskip to defeat 1 of.

Vito is capone's first mate, akin to his zoro and his strength is probably pretty close to sanji's own strength considering Vito within 3 seconds defeated kung fu point chopper and nami which isn't super impressive for a m3 leveled character and is possibly for a middle trio character, but not with the level of ease and haste that he defeated them in. (like 3 seconds)

Cracker IS stronger than luffy, Luffy barely won even with Nami + army of big mom constructs helping considering she had a big mom vivre card and those defending nami with their lives while nami u sed very specific support techniques like turning the army to eatable levels due to wetting them. Cracker was > Gear 4th Luffy and Doflaming os weaker than Gear 4th Luffy, even if you take out the time limit, gear 4th luffy isn't enough to defeat Cracker without all the support he had. Doflamingo can outlast g4 but he is weaker than g4 during said time limit, well cracker is stronger than g4 luffy as shown by constantly pushing luffy back while he was using g4.

You're just underestimating Urouge and the others, law went into the doflamingo fight at like 40% (or was it 60%) stamina as stated by himself. All of the supernova should be at least as strong as zoro while almost all will be stronger. They are the luffy rivals and I wouldn't be surprised if Urouge can beat Luffy. The way I view it, Drake is the strongest followed by Kid, Hawkins, and Urouge. Then Luffy (or maybe he's on urouge, hawkins, and kid level) and then law and then the rest.

Snack is probably akin to Luffy or Doflamingo leveled, if not a bit weaker, which is weaker than Cracker who should be weaker than Smoothie who should be weaker than katakuri. 

So wait, you think because doflamingo had more plot relevance, he's stronger?
Arlong was a big arc villain as well, what's your point? Doflamingo was kind of implied to be probably an unofficial calamity of sorts in that he's not a part of the crew but he'd probably ride the line between the lowest calamity and the next strongest person under the calamities. I'd put Doflamingo as the beast pirates equivalent of snack.

Doflamingo and Crocodile are my favorite characters and Doflamingo is among the strongest in the one piece world, however commanders like calamities/sweet commanders are absolute monsters.

But yeah, doflamingo is the equivelant of Snack within the beast pirates (as an unofficial member), or who knows, maybe that'll be Drake.

Doflamingo blind sided a yonkou commander while said commander (jozu) was in mid combat with a move that is based on hax and luffy only seemed to break out of due to being able to change his mass. Jozu would wreck doflamingo though as evidenced by the fact that jozu could standstill aokiji.


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## zoro (Mar 30, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Doflamingo is clearly stronger than luffy in single combat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The guy Luffy couldn't beat 1vs1 is weaker than him? This seems fishy


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 30, 2017)

This will be a 3-4 day long fight, both seems to be more tanky. Leaning towards Doffy extreme diff. 51:49.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 30, 2017)

It's irrelevant because that is the nature of his fruit. He can freeze large volumes of water all he wants, it doesn't mean crap. His Ice mountain creating feat far surpasses any water freezing since he had to actually create large thickets of ice without any water. And AoE mean "Area of Effect" it really doesn't mean much. His water freezing doesn't mean much unless he is freezing Jimbei underwater or something. When Aokiji fights on land, what does he do? He creates a lance and throws it, he creates blocks of ice and throws it, and he freezes peoples bodies. It's not an automatic large scale feat like the ocean ones, because you know, ocean is water. Simply saying "Hey look at this" doesn't mean anything if you can't connect it to anything through logical means or argue using it. Also, Aokiji's AOE surpasses WB's, Mihawks, the other Admirals, etc. It doesn't mean crap in relation. Also, you can't compare two completely different abilities using the same criteria. Luffy has rubber fruit, he doesn't have AOE, Aokiji does. So what? Luffy can punch the heck out of you. That's the difference. Two different abilities. And why would I give you an AOE feat? AOE is not everything and Aokiji's AOE doesn't work the same on land. We don't see Aokiji create an oceans worth of ice without touching water. Aokiji's ability reacts differently to water and Aokiji fights differently on land. Do you understand the difference? Those are facts. You could look them up in the manga. How about you make some sense. And I already gave reasons/instances of why and how the war was surpassed. The 10 day fight and its after math, Admiral Fujitora, That dude that split a continent in half evenly, Law, Doflamingo, Luffy etc. Heck even Sai and Pica would standout right along side the Admirals in the war. But I'm done derailing the thread with this. I won't reply about this anymore. 

You don't follow conversations well do you? WTF are you even talking about? Feats, story set up, hype, these are all parts of the story. I use everything at my disposal. That's how you argue. And I always used concrete feats alongside all of it, F_____ing Cracker, he is concrete feat. Stop saying stupid stuff. 
*Facepalm* YOU made the statement about the 4th commander. YOU prove it. Are you f________ing dense? "Why would Oda make him the 4th commander" is not f_______ing argument. It's a stupid ass fallacious argument. Go f_________ing ask Oda and come back to me. I already proved how characters can share titles and be levels apart or be the next strongest in line and be levels apart. And for the last f________ing time I don't have to go based on that 4th commander. Because Cracker has his own f___________ing feats. I don't have to prove anything about that fight. I don't have to prove anything about that commander. And I don't have to prove anything about Urogue. And yes, Oda can make the 4th commander much weaker than the rest if he wants too. That's stupid fallacious question. Why would I have to prove that? Again, that's not how that works. I didn't make that statement or even bring him up to prove anything about Cracker. YOU did. The burden of proof falls on YOU! Stop trolling. For the last time. YOU brought him up. And Urougue doesn't have to be "Much stronger", he would just need to be as strong as Luffy, Law, and Doflamingo. And ONCE again, we don't know anything about Urogue, about that fight or that commander. You are placing an unknown variable into the equation and saying "There! That proves it". Proves what? It's an unknown. The facts end with a fight that happened in the past that left the 4th commander defeated. Everything else is YOUR theory. Those aren't facts. And that is fine, you can do that all you want on your spare time but you can't pass off your theories about an unknown like they are facts. And it has no relationship with Cracker. Cracker has his own feats. 

Yes because this is a shounen story................................ Did you forget you were reading a shounen story? And again, the story, the set up of the characters, places, and organizations, the feats, the hype, etc ALL of it matters. So what if Doffy is the villain of his own arc? Morgan was the villain of his arc. Rob Lucci was the villain of his arc. Can you stop saying stupid stuff? Can you stop asking fallacious questions and making fallacious arguments? Who the heck cares about "Mf Croc". Stop shifting all the damn time. "What about this? that? this? that?". We are not at a candy store and you are not here to grab every candy like "Daddy this, that, this that EVERYTHING". STAY FOCUSED!!!
Also, it works against Doffy. He doesn't have better feats than someone as insignificant as a "minor" character in a "minor" arc. Again, you can say stuff all day long but if you can't actually make a point, argument, or really some sense there is no substance behind it and it's just babbling and shifting. If you actually read and comprehended then you would know my point about Shounen trope and OP story was related to the characters. After reading 800+ chapters we can safely conclude Luffy becomes stronger with difficult fights. Luffy has consistently become stronger. And this is shared by his shounen peers. Those are facts. That actually happens. And since Cracker comes after a difficult fight against DD, there is a point of reference there. And Luffy's fight with Cracker has/will also make him stronger. 

No there is no double standard there at all. I don't want to assume anything about Snack or Cracker. Because Cracker has feats. YOU (Once again) brought up Snack and consistently failed to provide any evidence that shows Cracker and Snack are on the same level. I didn't make a statement like "Snack must be weaker than Cracker", because I don't need Snacks non-existent feats. The burden of proof doesn't fall on me. I don't have to do anything. Also, I have the manga to back up my reasoning. Read it! Read the story. The Yonkou are four different organizations. So in a fight they are counter parts. If they couldn't even fight on part with the other crews, they wouldn't even be Yonkou's. That's how BB became an Yonkou, by defeating a former Yonkou crew. The story also backs up the fact that they are in a stalemate and are having a difficult time getting the upper hand. So they are resorting to things like artifical df's and strong alliances. And even have well protected parts of their ponelygyphs. Also based on the war with Marco, Jozu, and Vista coming out looking better. Based on the 3 calamities. Based on the 3 sweet commanders. Based on their relative bounties and order of entries. I can safely conclude there is a clear pattern, out side of the crew and inside the crew. I have a lot going for my argument backed by actual stuff from the manga. I don't have to ask useless questions like "What about this or that". Your arguments give it away. If you actually had an argument, logic, or facts to base things on then your argument would look completely different. They would look more like mine and less like yours. 

Doflamingo is not stronger than Luffy. He is significantly weaker than G4 Luffy. Awakened DD barely did anything to Luffy. 

Yeah, and that was a few seconds of what? There is not enough evidence to conclude anything. I already asked for you to provide feats where Jozu and Doffy actually fight and Doffy over powers him. If you can't, you don't have a "Feat". You have an incomplete scenario that can mean a host of different things based on who is looking at them. There are also no background information to go on. And let's say I give it to you to throw you a bone. Doffy can beat Jozu. But it won't be because Doffy is more powerful. It will be because Doffy has an advantageous ability.


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## GucciBandana (Apr 1, 2017)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> It's irrelevant because that is the nature of his fruit. He can freeze large volumes of water all he wants, it doesn't mean crap. His Ice mountain creating feat far surpasses any water freezing since he had to actually create large thickets of ice without any water. And AoE mean "Area of Effect" it really doesn't mean much. His water freezing doesn't mean much unless he is freezing Jimbei underwater or something. When Aokiji fights on land, what does he do? He creates a lance and throws it, he creates blocks of ice and throws it, and he freezes peoples bodies. It's not an automatic large scale feat like the ocean ones, because you know, ocean is water. Simply saying "Hey look at this" doesn't mean anything if you can't connect it to anything through logical means or argue using it. Also, Aokiji's AOE surpasses WB's, Mihawks, the other Admirals, etc. It doesn't mean crap in relation. Also, you can't compare two completely different abilities using the same criteria. Luffy has rubber fruit, he doesn't have AOE, Aokiji does. So what? Luffy can punch the heck out of you. That's the difference. Two different abilities. And why would I give you an AOE feat? AOE is not everything and Aokiji's AOE doesn't work the same on land. We don't see Aokiji create an oceans worth of ice without touching water. Aokiji's ability reacts differently to water and Aokiji fights differently on land. Do you understand the difference? Those are facts. You could look them up in the manga. How about you make some sense. And I already gave reasons/instances of why and how the war was surpassed. The 10 day fight and its after math, Admiral Fujitora, That dude that split a continent in half evenly, Law, Doflamingo, Luffy etc. Heck even Sai and Pica would standout right along side the Admirals in the war. But I'm done derailing the thread with this. I won't reply about this anymore.
> 
> You don't follow conversations well do you? WTF are you even talking about? Feats, story set up, hype, these are all parts of the story. I use everything at my disposal. That's how you argue. And I always used concrete feats alongside all of it, F_____ing Cracker, he is concrete feat. Stop saying stupid stuff.
> *Facepalm* YOU made the statement about the 4th commander. YOU prove it. Are you f________ing dense? "Why would Oda make him the 4th commander" is not f_______ing argument. It's a stupid ass fallacious argument. Go f_________ing ask Oda and come back to me. I already proved how characters can share titles and be levels apart or be the next strongest in line and be levels apart. And for the last f________ing time I don't have to go based on that 4th commander. Because Cracker has his own f___________ing feats. I don't have to prove anything about that fight. I don't have to prove anything about that commander. And I don't have to prove anything about Urogue. And yes, Oda can make the 4th commander much weaker than the rest if he wants too. That's stupid fallacious question. Why would I have to prove that? Again, that's not how that works. I didn't make that statement or even bring him up to prove anything about Cracker. YOU did. The burden of proof falls on YOU! Stop trolling. For the last time. YOU brought him up. And Urougue doesn't have to be "Much stronger", he would just need to be as strong as Luffy, Law, and Doflamingo. And ONCE again, we don't know anything about Urogue, about that fight or that commander. You are placing an unknown variable into the equation and saying "There! That proves it". Proves what? It's an unknown. The facts end with a fight that happened in the past that left the 4th commander defeated. Everything else is YOUR theory. Those aren't facts. And that is fine, you can do that all you want on your spare time but you can't pass off your theories about an unknown like they are facts. And it has no relationship with Cracker. Cracker has his own feats.
> ...




So Aokiji's AOE is due to his devil fruit nature, while Fujitora's or Law's or Pica's aren't? I've seen way too much double standard in your post lol, so what's so impressive about all these guys you naming compare to Aokiji, or Croc's ground death? or Ace's Entei? Tell me how does Pica's method of making golem from existing rock any different than Aokiji freezing existing water?

Hmmm you were the one saying Yonkou commanders get benefit over DD based off set up of the story on post 116, can you make up your mind? That's the reason why I brought up Snack, since he has no feats, but he's a part of the set up of the story, if you wanna talk feats, we can talk about Cracker, but you brought up set up of the story first, which is where Snack comes in, clearly you just switching and avoiding because you can't explain the set up of the story about Snack.

You do realize your so called "set up of the story" and feats are separate things right? Snack has no feats, you read the manga too so I'm sure you are aware of that, it makes no sense why you would keep asking for it, I don't need to prove anything since we looking at it based off portrayal, which by your phrase, "set up of the story". Oda "set up" Snack as a Sweet Commander in the "story", and "set up" Snack to lose to Urouge in the "story", unless Oda specifies Snack being weaker, or else Snack gets powerscaled near Cracker, based off "set up of the story", same reason Green Bull would be powerscaled around Fujitora level, thou we don't know how he looks like, it's simple.

You seem don't get the part that Yonkous don't need to have the exact same crew structure to be evenly matched, assuming high commanders of each Yonkou must be as strong as each other is ridiculous, not even Yonkou captains themselves are as strong as each other, the underlings would vary even more, so does your "pattern" include BB has 10 Giant captains? While WB had 16 commanders? and Big Mom has 34 ministers? While Shanks crew seems the smallest in term of number? Does it consider Kaido has 3 calamities, while Big Mom has 4 sweet commanders? And Shanks is the only crew with a confirmed First Mate? Clearly the Yonkou crews are structured differently, based on actual stuff from the manga.

Doflamingo would've killed Luffy easily in single combat when Luffy enters his weakened state.

Did I conclude anything? I don't think so, I just stated the only direct encounter between DD and a top 3 Yonko commander in the manga, and we know that Jozu cannnot break parasite, thus DD had the upper hand in said situation, and Jozu looks inferior to G4 Luffy in the same situation.




PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Cracker beat urouge after he defeated Snack and possibly some others. Cracker also would have defeated Luffy even if Luffy was fresh.
> 
> Honestly I think you're underestimating the other supernova, I view them as characters stronger than Luffy pre timeskip who gained strength but not as much so it equalizes some. For example urouge and drake showed at least equality between themselves (individually) and a pacifista which took the entire strawhat crew pre timeskip to defeat 1 of.
> 
> ...



Whether Cracker will defeat Luffy fresh is unknown, I doubt it.

Urouge and Drake was losing to the Pacifista when the Pacifista started using its laser ability, they were only having upper hands before that in CQC.

G4 Luffy without time limit is clearly significantly stronger than Cracker, he breaks Cracker's biscuits right away whether it's clashing against the sword or smashing against the shield, he was struggling to do that against DD's strings. Luffy admitted DD was somebody he could not defeat with G4, with that KKG flashback. After Luffy defeated Cracker, he still has a lot left in the tank, barely injured, barely needed rest, compare to his severely wounded condition after fight DD, clearly DD was the one G4 Luffy would def lose against, while Cracker could've went either way, most likely Luffy would beat him if he went all out.

More Plot relevance DOES NOT mean stronger, just like Cracker appearing after DD DOES NOT mean stronger. DD is "Joker", hinted to be above 3 Calamities, Jack, and likely Queen and King, or Queen and X.

SNs are very strong, but no indication of these guys stronger than Luffy.

You people are strange, refuse to believe Luffy and Law, the 2 SN with highest bounties being among the strongest, yet to believe Katakuri > Smoothie > Cracker for some unknown reason.

Personally I think most of the SN are around same level, Luffy, Law, Kidd and possibly Drake and Hawkins are the top half.

Luffy broke out of parasite due to strength, while Jozu couldn't do so, it's the same portrayal as G4 Luffy physically stronger than anything Cracker can produce.




Gyro said:


> The guy Luffy couldn't beat 1vs1 is weaker than him? This seems fishy



It was never stated Luffy could not beat Cracker 1 on 1, he just happened to have a little help.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 1, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> So Aokiji's AOE is due to his devil fruit nature, while Fujitora's or Law's or Pica's aren't? I've seen way too much double standard in your post lol, so what's so impressive about all these guys you naming compare to Aokiji, or Croc's ground death? or Ace's Entei? Tell me how does Pica's method of making golem from existing rock any different than Aokiji freezing existing water?
> 
> Hmmm you were the one saying Yonkou commanders get benefit over DD based off set up of the story on post 116, can you make up your mind? That's the reason why I brought up Snack, since he has no feats, but he's a part of the set up of the story, if you wanna talk feats, we can talk about Cracker, but you brought up set up of the story first, which is where Snack comes in, clearly you just switching and avoiding because you can't explain the set up of the story about Snack.
> 
> ...


No, the aoe isn't because of the fruit, the fact that he can turn water into ice is though, it'd be one thing if he created that much ice but he turned water into ice.

Pica takes rocks/stone from the surrounding and doesn't create the rocks himself, meaning if he's not in a city like dressrosa, his combat level goes down A LOT since he can't form a golem.

Doflamingo is pretty much at low commander level, weaker than Cracker. Snack should be close to Cracker level due to both being commanders but he's going to be somewhat weaker, just like the gap we saw in the whitebeard pirates.

The most realistic situation is that Urouge and Snack fought, then Snack became Urouge's first mate after either bromancing through battle with him, wanting to find a way out of big mom's clutches and urouge was willing to take him in, or a mixture of the two.

I didn't say high commanders are equal at any point, katakuri > smoothie > cracker > snack, the gaps aren't huge though.

The whitebeard pirates after marco, jozu, thatch (dead), Vista, and Ace (dead) are all vice admiral leveled characters, there is a drop off there, just like after the top people in big mom's crew.

You say that but Cracker would have done the same thing if nami wasn't there with an army of big mom creations to help luffy, Cracker was overpowering Luffy in g4 while doflamingo was completely dominated while luffy was in g4. Also luffy made the claim he could have gotten away alone but people would have died, if you believe this or not is up to you but the fact is that if Cracker can overpower g4 then he's stronger than doflamingo and can easily defeat luffy who has no help while he's depowered after using g4.

Jozu was in parasite for like 20 seconds and during that time there was conversations being had and it was a blindside attack, against the same jozu who was able to standstill against jozu till he was blindsided again. Also Luffy changed his mass to get out of parasite.

You seriously need to go read the manga again in regards to the pacifista vs supernova fights. This is how the fights went:

Urouge punches Pacifista multiple times, pacifista gets pushed into a building and smoke flies everywhere. Laser shoots out through Urouge and he drops down. Is up 3 seconds later like nothing happened and is smiling and ready to fight the pacifista more like he viewed the pacifista as an equal who he'd enjoy fighting.

Drake bit into the pacifista and then not knocking it was a robot (thinking it was kuma or something) was thinking he was victorious since that'd chomp into their head, then a laser went into him and he dropped to a knee, 2 seconds later he was on his feet again smiling and ready to fight the pacifista just like urouge did.

Then Kizaru jumped in and defeated both. Urouge and Drake were painted in a way that they both seemed relatively equal with a pacifista 1 v 1 which is vastly superior to luffy, also both would realistically be stronger since they'd know what to watch out for that resulted in them getting hit the first time, neither were defeated and both were about to fight the pacifista.

Cracker > G4 Luffy > A single Cracker soldier

Cracker was without a doubt the one pressuring g4 luffy in their fight, luffy wound crush one then another would take it's place and a phalanx of them would rush into to luffy, luffy was the one who was losing in their 1 v 1, there is no iffs ands or butts, luffy IS weaker than Cracker.

Also what are you talking about? Luffy without a doubt can defeat doflamingo with gear 4th, if he'd have not known doflamigno was still standing he would have won with a single usage of g4. Also cracker's buso > doflamingo's buso.

Luffy was rapid firing kong guns against cracker and his defense still stood up.

What the fuck is this "hinted to be above the 3 calamities" bullshit you are spewing? Are you even reading one piece or are you just reading one piece fan fictions mistakenly?

I mean when Urouge defeats or stalemates Snack and Law is weaker than Doflamingo, yeah. Also luffy and law had small bounties till the doflamingo incident, yonkou commander bounties are accurate due to being established pirates while supernova are still being built up, for example luffy deserves a higher bounty than 500m, he's probably closer to a 750m bounty.

Drake had the best showing pre timeskip by far, Hawkins has godly kenbunshoku, Urouge was pre timeskip like pacifista leveled so pre timeskip he was more or less post skip franky leveled, and Bonney has the feat of blitzing zoro while he's in full attack mode even though her devil fruit is hax where she can do it aoe without having to touch the person meaning her physical stats + her devil fruit are strong even pre timeskip.

Honestly luffy and zoro were probably the weakest supernova pre timeskip.

Reactions: Like 1


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## zoro (Apr 1, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> It was never stated Luffy could not beat Cracker 1 on 1, he just happened to have a little help.



It doesn't need to be stated because it's the logical conclusion from what was shown

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over with you. You are trolling. You made statements and instead of providing arguments for those you keep asking me to prove it wrong instead. And I'm not playing that trollish game with you anymore. You lost the argument when you brought up unknown factors and failed to relate them to Doflamingo in any logical manner. And you resort to fallacious arguments like "Why would Oda do this or that". Trying to guess the authors intentions, when none of us knows why Oda does anything. We are not mind readers. The only reason a person asks questions like that is because they failed to defend their position. 

I entertained you about that 4th commander just to show how faulty and screwed your logic is. But it seems you won't defend your position and instead shift and argue for the sake or arguing. And it's not like you can since it's impossible. And since my arguments aren't connected to that 4th commander and "Unknowns", I will stop entertaining you. If you can't bring up evidence for any of those things and can't relate it to the characters we are talking about in any reasonable manner, then you lost. That's exactly the point! You DON'T have any evidence because we didn't see that fight and there's no way to relate them to the characters we are talking about. My arguments don't rely on that unknown fight, those unknown characters, and this unknown relationship that you are establishing. Stop trolling. That's the text book definition of trolling. 

And you are not addressing any of the argument. Just because you say something against what I'm saying doesn't mean it refutes what I'm saying. So your argument that "Just because Cracker appears after doesn't mean he is stronger". See that is trolling because you didn't refute or argue against what I said, you simply quoted me and just gave your opinion. I didn't say Cracker is stronger because he came afterwards. I don't need to say that. Cracker his feats that prove it. But anyways, what I said was Luffy gets stronger after each relevant fight and that it's a shounen trope something which One Piece falls under. Those are facts. We can verify those things. In mainstream shounen manga's the protagonists keep getting stronger after fights. But ignore that, we have 800+ chapters of One Piece that proves that. That's how arguments work. You make a statement and then provide evidence and reasons for why you reached that conclusion. Something that you fail over and over to do. You just gloss over what the other person says, don't provide evidence or reasons, and just keep blurting out stuff. Trolling. 

And this might be your biggest troll moment right now. "Doflamingo is Joker hinted to be above the 3 calamities". There you go. Where did you find that? In your butt? You can't make baseless assumptions like that and pass them off like they are arguments. This statement is full crap and your 4th commander mess is full of crap. 

I never said the Yonkou's are structured the same or not. That's not the structure I was talking about. WB can have a hundred commanders it won't mean anything, especially to the argument I'm making. There will always be a handful of commanders that can take on the top commanders of other Yonkous, take on Shichibukai, and strong marines. WB is not going to have 10 "Monster trio" characters. For one, that doesn't make sense and two that would be redundant. Some characters are simply above the rest. And those crew mate relationships have been established since East Blue and continued through out the story; Even in a non-pirate group like Boroque Works you had that relationship with Mr.0, 1, 2, etc. That's a "theme" when it comes to One Piece organizational structure and fighting. And it's a fact. 

Based on the set up of the story, feats, hype. Can you comprehend? Or do you just like trolling? None of the arguments I'm making are stand alone. They all go t-o-g-e-t-h-e-r because I'm arguing to prove a single statement and I'm providing a plethora of arguments to prove that. I know you don't want to comprehend but at least try. Argue it as a whole not a completely separate thing. Kind of like how an apple can be green, have a shape, have indentations, have seeds inside. All of those things describe an apple. They aren't separate thoughts and ideas about different things. 

There is no double standard. You just have comprehension issues. Refer to PwnGoats arguments about that. And I'm not even explicitly saying you are wrong. But you failed to provide any reasoning behind what you are saying. In the future if there is enough evidence to back what you are saying up, I will be the first one to say the same thing as you. But so far, thanks to the feats, hype, and story structure the top Yonkou commanders look better. And being stronger doesn't mean much. Cracker could be slightly stronger than Doflamingo and the 4th commander could be slightly weaker. 

Anyways, if you want to discuss the 4th commander I will keep asking you to provide evidence and relate it to Cracker, Doflamingo, and Luffy. If you can't, you lost the argument. You can keep talking about it all you want but that's not an argument.


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## GucciBandana (Apr 3, 2017)

Gyro said:


> It doesn't need to be stated because it's the logical conclusion from what was shown



nope not even close, Luffy wasn't even close to be at his limit after he defeated Cracker, with the help of a bunch of fodders, low injuries low stamina cost, so that conclusion is clearly illogical.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 3, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> nope not even close, Luffy wasn't even close to be at his limit after he defeated Cracker, with the help of a bunch of fodders, low injuries low stamina cost, so that conclusion is clearly illogical.


Luffy would have defeated doflamingo with the first use of g4, he was rapid firing kong guns. 


Don't even try to claim that doflamingo wouldn't lose to Cracker, Cracker wins mid diff at best. The trees were used as meat shields for Nami and probably Luffy when he was getting his shit back from g4 (between uses)
It took 16 hours worth of g4's + Nami who if she isn't taken out (she had meat shields to attack and defend) is able to heavily support in this battle due to softening up the cracker soldiers both for regular combat and for eating. 

Luffy went into the Cracker battle fresh as well, he went into the Doflamingo fight post arena, post running around dressrosa, post fighting off many opponents, and he took forever to get into g4. We saw that Doflamingo wasn't really much above g2/g3 except his impressive tanking ability, he could dodge g3 but he couldn't avoid g2 due to it's speed, I think doflamingo was weakened a bit due to law's shit cuz he could dodge g2 before but even if you factor that in, cracker is massively more impressive.

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## zoro (Apr 3, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> nope not even close, Luffy wasn't even close to be at his limit after he defeated Cracker, with the help of a bunch of fodders, low injuries low stamina cost, so that conclusion is clearly illogical.



Fodder help that allowed him to not get trashed after G4 ended and that negated the opponent's main fighting style. Reread the fight. Luffy said himself that merely breaking the biscuits had no effect and he didn't know how to bypass them. I'll remind you that Luffy's a fighting genius and yet he had no idea how to win on his own, even after the biscuits were weakened by Nami's rain. And there's a reason why Nami had the Vivre Card

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## GucciBandana (Apr 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Fodder help that allowed him to not get trashed after G4 ended and that negated the opponent's main fighting style. Reread the fight. Luffy said himself that merely breaking the biscuits had no effect and he didn't know how to bypass them. I'll remind you that Luffy's a fighting genius and yet he had no idea how to win on his own, even after the biscuits were weakened by Nami's rain. And there's a reason why Nami had the Vivre Card



There's not even the slightest hint that Luffy G4 was anywhere near ending, if a "fodder" is that important, Cracker can easily take her out first, yet he couldn't. Luffy only stated biscuits will regen after breaking meanwhile in his normal form but extra full, nothing suggests G4 can't bypass them if he kept trying.

Nami being there made the fight much easier for Luffy, Luffy seems almost uninjured after Nami's arrival and had enough stamina left.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No, the aoe isn't because of the fruit, the fact that he can turn water into ice is though, it'd be one thing if he created that much ice but he turned water into ice.
> 
> Pica takes rocks/stone from the surrounding and doesn't create the rocks himself, meaning if he's not in a city like dressrosa, his combat level goes down A LOT since he can't form a golem.
> 
> ...



Fujitora doesn't create heavy objects, WB doesn't create Tsunami water, and Aokiji doesn't create ice from scratch, so what's your point?

Of course big mom commanders will have few(4) outstanding ones like WB 1235 division commanders, that's the term "high commanders" come from.

how did Cracker overpower Luffy when Cracker's biscuit was breaking everytime the clash, while Doffy's string didn't till at least 20 min last, yet he's overpowered by G4 luffy?

how do you even know Cracker can last till G4 wears off? when Luffy has never pushed G4 near its limit against Cracker, while having homing attacks like Calvary while in G4, which he never used? Luffy finished the fight with injuries comparable to his fight against Bellamy, can still take a beating from Sanji and fight enraged army, clearly he had A LOT left.

Urouge and Drake both used their abilities to gain upperhand against the Pacifista, while the Pacifista wasn't using his(the laser), soon as he started using it, Drake and Urouge were injured, yes they can both keep fighting, but Pacifista had the upperhand.

yes Luffy was firing rapid KG at Cracker, and his defense still stood up, while Luffy was launching attack G4 attacks at DD for more than 20 min, his defense was still up, def the more impressive one.

Luffy landed ONE attack on DD during his entire initial G4 duriation after DD awakened, how is he going to beat DD 1 on 1 with 1 usage, or even 2 usage of G4 if Law didn't get him with Gamma Knife? Luffy passed out roughly the same time as DD did, and DD woke up before him.

"Joker" is a card reference, so is "Jack", this is obviously a pattern Oda is throwing.

It's fine if you believe Luffy who had 1 of the highest bounties, were weakest SN pre TS, just don't contradict this when you talking about the ranking of BM Sweet Commanders.




TheOnlyOne1 said:


> I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over with you. You are trolling. You made statements and instead of providing arguments for those you keep asking me to prove it wrong instead. And I'm not playing that trollish game with you anymore. You lost the argument when you brought up unknown factors and failed to relate them to Doflamingo in any logical manner. And you resort to fallacious arguments like "Why would Oda do this or that". Trying to guess the authors intentions, when none of us knows why Oda does anything. We are not mind readers. The only reason a person asks questions like that is because they failed to defend their position.
> 
> I entertained you about that 4th commander just to show how faulty and screwed your logic is. But it seems you won't defend your position and instead shift and argue for the sake or arguing. And it's not like you can since it's impossible. And since my arguments aren't connected to that 4th commander and "Unknowns", I will stop entertaining you. If you can't bring up evidence for any of those things and can't relate it to the characters we are talking about in any reasonable manner, then you lost. That's exactly the point! You DON'T have any evidence because we didn't see that fight and there's no way to relate them to the characters we are talking about. My arguments don't rely on that unknown fight, those unknown characters, and this unknown relationship that you are establishing. Stop trolling. That's the text book definition of trolling.
> 
> ...



It's entertaining watching yourself contradict yourself with each one of your replies, you talk about Yonkou crew structure on one hand, which is pure speculation, yet you ask about evidence of Snack lol, when you can provide me evidence that Yonkou Commanders are as strong as each other, like "There will always be a handful of commanders that can take on the top commanders of other Yonkous, take on Shichibukai, and strong marines.", I mean it's fine on its own, just sounds so strange when somebody talking about "theme" asking about "evidence" when the other side starting talking about "theme". You talk about kid at candy store saying "daddy this, daddy that", yet you are the one going all over the place talking about Luffy getting stronger after fights, and Alabasta Mr.1 2 3, sometimes makes me believe you are referring to yourself everytime you mention "trolling", which is like countless.

If you wanna talk about theme, sure I have a few, the "theme" is Yonkou top commanders are roughly same tier, [Blocked Domain] SN are also roughly same tier, Urouge beat Snack, according to this "theme", [Blocked Domain] SN are around the level of Yonko top commanders, at least, yet 2 of the strongest SN, Luffy and Law, both weaker than DD in single combat, the "theme" puts DD above Yonkou top commanders.

For somebody who likes talking about theme this much, and also jumping from DD, Cracker, all the way to Mr.0 1 2, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the card theme Kaido has.

if you wanna disgard theme and talk about feats I'm perfectly fine with that, we have Cracker and DD for that, I just can't have somebody asking me for evidence when it's clearly a portrayal then start talking about theme, or keeps asking for feats then make the claim "pre TS feats don't matter" lol, contradicting oneself all over the place, but calls the other person the troll.

well so how do you plan to back up your pre TS feats don't matter claim and disgard Ground Death or Entei anyways?



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Luffy would have defeated doflamingo with the first use of g4, he was rapid firing kong guns.
> 
> 
> Don't even try to claim that doflamingo wouldn't lose to Cracker, Cracker wins mid diff at best. The trees were used as meat shields for Nami and probably Luffy when he was getting his shit back from g4 (between uses)
> ...



Luffy needed to be carried off the battle field after G4, both times, yet he defeats DD with first use, lol.

Are there any evidence Luffy was ever in his condition of "getting his shit back from G4"? or you just made that up? since I do have the evidence of Nami's comment about witnessing G4 making fat Luffy strink for the first time, which goes completely against your claim.

it was 11 hours, not 16, n def not close to 16 hours of G4 lol, more like 5 min of G4 and 10 hours 55 min of Walrus form.

if Nami is this much of a threat, why didn't Cracker just take her out?

talking about "fresh" when DD was hit by Red Hawk, Injection Shot, Gamma Knife, Counter shock before their 1 on 1 fight even began, yeah running around fighting fodders makes Luffy tired, while fighting Law and Sanji, cutting Fujitora Meteor makes DD fresh, hmmm. 

DD was dodging G2 casually before GK, he dominated Luffy in all their encounters pre GK without really using Awakening, post GK too after a while, which made Luffy go G4. DD was avoiding G4 Calvary and instantly appearing behind G4 Luffy.

He's much above G2/G3 Luffy even without Awakening.


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## zoro (Apr 5, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> There's not even the slightest hint that Luffy G4 was anywhere near ending, if a "fodder" is that important, Cracker can easily take her out first, yet he couldn't. Luffy only stated biscuits will regen after breaking meanwhile in his normal form but extra full, nothing suggests G4 can't bypass them if he kept trying.
> 
> Nami being there made the fight much easier for Luffy, Luffy seems almost uninjured after Nami's arrival and had enough stamina left.



Then why didn't he keep trying? This is Luffy we're talking about, if there was a way to end the fight in less than 11 hours when the life of Sanji was on the line, he'd have tried it. And again Nami didn't die because of the literally thousands of sentient trees that had to obey her. Cracker is stronger than Luffy from what their encounter has shown, at the very worst equals if you really want to be nice to Luffy. Saying the encounter portrayed him as outright stronger is fanfic


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 6, 2017)

@Gucci Bandana. You seriously have an unbelievable level of comprehension issues. The crux of my argument doesn't rely on "theme". Those are add on arguments. Do you even properly read what people are saying? Or do you jump to conclusions by glancing at the arguments and ready your own opinion that fail to refute or even address anything the other is saying? You aren't really arguing, you are just stating what you want. Those aren't the same things.

As I said, I'm using several different reasons and evidence to reinforce my premise. For the last freaking time, those aren't stand alone arguments. I just said this two times and what do you do? Just go off on a tangent. It also seems that you lack nuance for complex issues.

There is literally no contradiction in anything I said. You made this claim so now prove how I contradicted my self?

I'm not "jumping" to the Boroque Works. I'm backing up what I said about how organizations in the One Piece world works. And it's an established relationship that occurs over and over again. It's an observable fact; Starting from the Strawhat crew to most other crews and organizations. Like the fight against Don Krieg, Gin, and the other metal guy. Hence the comparisons and corroborative evidence. That's how an argument is made and backed up. And what do you do? You dismiss it. Dismissing is not the same as refuting. And also, Mr.0,1,2 aren't the arguments. They are a part of the evidence for the argument. Do you understand the difference? So don't go off on a tangent about Don Krieg now since he is not the argument, he is an evidence and pattern to the argument I'm making.

When I talk about Yonkou crew structures I'm giving extensive background information from 800+ chapters. This can be verified and observed in the story. It's not something you can argue against. It's an established part of the story. The Yonkous don't exist in a vacuum. They fall within how the story, the thems, settings etc are structured. That's where that whole argument comes from. Those things aren't the argument, those are the evidence. And I'm backing it up. Those things repeat in the story. You dismiss or misrepresent my arguments. This is not the crux of my argument. My argument doesn't rely on this. This is just background information to further back up my stance.

What you are talking about is not a theme or a literary device. The crews are literary devices. You are misrepresenting things. The "theme" about "Yonkou commanders being on the same tier. And the SN being on the same tier" aren't themes or literary devices. The "Worst generation" represents the top crews of a generation. That's not really a theme but let's call it that. The theme: They are the top of their generation and they are troublesome. The theme isn't "They are all equal". The same with the Yonkou commanders. The theme isn't "They are all the same tier", we assume that, the theme is "These guys are the strongest amongst the Yonkou crew". So you are completely misrepresenting things. The distinct difference between what you are doing and I am doing is that I'm using repeated literary devices and established relationships in the manga to establish a relationship between Yonkou commanders. I'm not falsely claiming "These guys are in the same group. The other guys are in the same group. They must be all equal. This guy from this group defeated this other guy from another group. Therefore this other guy from a completely different group is stronger than all of them". That's huge flaw in logic, a huge leap, not evidence or even a reason. This amounts to bullshit. But before you even get to that argument the things you are using are faulty. There's no theme of "equality" amongst any of the groups. There's a theme of relationship however. And let's say you are right. Let's say Urogue and Luffy are in the same tier. Guess what? Luffy beat both Doflamingo and Cracker. So it's not that Snack is weak, it just means Urogue has a chance of beating Doflamingo. But this is once again going back down to unknown territory. We don't know how strong either of those characters are, how the fight went down or even how the type of ability they have matches up against other characters. You are simply stating Urogue is weaker than Doflamingo. Urogue is stronger than Snack. So that means Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker. And you have no way in hell to back up these assumptions. But you make bold statements, hence this is trolling. And once again, I don't need the 4th commander or his unknown feats for my argument. I have Crackers.

You are going against things in the manga to state Luffy was stronger than Cracker. As Gyro said, that is fan fiction. You can't say that when there is evidence to the contrary.

Amongst many of your fallacious reasoning one that can be found up and down is red herring. You take an idea or a snipet of an idea and misrepresent or argue against it instead of the actual argument, point, or the context of what was said. The dismissal of "Mr.0, 1, 2" for example. Which weren't arguments but the evidence to the context/argument being made. Stop doing that.


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## GucciBandana (Apr 10, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Then why didn't he keep trying? This is Luffy we're talking about, if there was a way to end the fight in less than 11 hours when the life of Sanji was on the line, he'd have tried it. And again Nami didn't die because of the literally thousands of sentient trees that had to obey her. Cracker is stronger than Luffy from what their encounter has shown, at the very worst equals if you really want to be nice to Luffy. Saying the encounter portrayed him as outright stronger is fanfic




Ask Oda, don't ask me.
if you want me to give you an explanation on it, like you did with why Nami didn't get taken out, when it was shown that Cracker's presence alone can take out those trees, yeah sure, I'd say it's because Luffy wanted to safest method to beat Cracker, which will leave him in the best condition possible after the fight, since Sanji's life was on the line, so not only it was unnecessary, also it wasn't a wise decision.

Whether Luffy with G4 time limit is stronger than Cracker or not is debatable, I've never said that Luffy can beat Cracker alone, I just said it was never revealed. Meanwhile, Luffy with unlimited G4 is def stronger than Cracker without a doubt.


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## zoro (Apr 10, 2017)

GucciBandana said:


> Ask Oda, don't ask me.
> if you want me to give you an explanation on it, like you did with why Nami didn't get taken out, when it was shown that Cracker's presence alone can take out those trees, yeah sure, I'd say it's because Luffy wanted to safest method to beat Cracker, which will leave him in the best condition possible after the fight, since Sanji's life was on the line, so not only it was unnecessary, also it wasn't a wise decision.
> 
> Whether Luffy with G4 time limit is stronger than Cracker or not is debatable, I've never said that Luffy can beat Cracker alone, I just said it was never revealed. Meanwhile, Luffy with unlimited G4 is def stronger than Cracker without a doubt.



The trees were scared of Cracker, they were scared of Mama's soul in the Vivre Card more. It's in the manga 

Unlimited G4 doesn't matter because it doesn't exist yet. A round of G4 wasn't enough to beat him, and after that it's GG Luffy without Nami and the sentient forest to protect his ass


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## Muah (Apr 10, 2017)

Jack midd diffs both scenarios. 

Sanji wins low diff.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 10, 2017)

Doflamingo could pull off a win over Jack.

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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 10, 2017)

Zoro said:


> Doflamingo could pull off a win over Jack.


 spoken like the true Grandmaster


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