# Kakashi and Gai vs the Sannin



## kakashibeast (Mar 18, 2014)

Location: Sannin showdown
Starting distance: 30 meters
Conditions: All start in base, Oro does not have his zetsu body
Intel: Manga knowledge
Restrictions: Edo Tensei


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## Mercurial (Mar 18, 2014)

Why restrict Orochimaru's Edo Tensei? I think that is not fair, is a part of his power and he should be allowed to fight with everything he has shown he can use. Also it wouldn't make any trouble for the Masters; Kakashi can preempt Orochimaru's Kuchiyose by reading his handseals with the Sharingan, and then Kamui away Orochimaru's body (he can Kamui away a body so fast that Obito can't even react to it, inspite the warping has been made right in front of his eyes) or warp away the coffins with Orochimaru along (he can Kamui away a giant arm from the Gedo Mazo in the same time that Madara summons away the monster).

Anyway hype and feats clearly are on the Masters' side. The speed gap is really wide, Kakashi with Raikiri/Raiden and Sharingan precog. + Gated Gai are going to blitz and carve through their defenses. Gai with Gates curbstomps Jiraiya and Tsunade, Kakashi can easily cut them in half with Raiton ninjutsu, superior speed, skill and smartness, or just rely on Kamui.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 18, 2014)

Yeah at this point the Masters are clearly superior to the Sannin overall in teamwork, and Kamui is one of the very few jutsu which bypasses Oro and Tsunade's durability and regeneration.

The Sannin can still take this w/extreme difficulty, but please at least don't say SM Jiraiya solos in here.


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## Cognitios (Mar 18, 2014)

In this scenario I am thinking Tsunade and Orochimaru will keep Kakashi and Gai busy until J-Man gets SM ready.
If J-Man gets Sage Mode then Kakashi and Gai are screwed. Tsunade herself can keep Gai entertained for a while, her regeneration and strength makes her a perfect counter, as long as she can hit Gai. IMO Tsunade can keep up her Regeneration as long as Gai can keep up 7th Gate, but once both of those run out, they are both screwed as their teammates will take each other out.
With Gai keeping Tsunade apart that leaves Orochimaru against Kakashi. Orochimaru just simply hasn't shown a technique that can definitely hit and take Kakashi down. Orochimaru's only chance is the Sword of Kusanagi, which IMO Kakashi will see as a threat and Kamui away. While a single Kamui isn't enough to take Kakashi out of the game, it does weaken him enough so that he won't be able to take Orochimaru out. 
Once Orochimaru and Tsunade are both weak, along with Kakashi and Gai, J-Man takes them out quite easily. Neither Gai nor Kakashi have counters for Frog Song. So that alone will probably take them out.
Summons also help quite a lot. It would take some big guns to take out Katsuya and Manda, that would weaken Gai and Kakashi. I think Afternoon Tiger could take out Katsuya and Lightning Chain could take out Manda. But both of those would severely weaken Kakashi and Gai.
Sannin win, mid-difficulty
Note: Why is the battledome so obsessed with the Sannin lately?


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## Cognitios (Mar 18, 2014)

> Yeah at this point the Masters are clearly superior to the Sannin overall, and Kamui is one of the very few jutsu which bypasses Oro and Tsunade's durability and regeneration.


Idk if this is IC, but if it is he wouldn't just take off their heads.
If it isn't in IC the masters win easily


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Mar 18, 2014)

This could really depend on how effective Evening Elephant is, and if Kakashi and Gai can stop Jiraiya from getting into SM.


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## LostSelf (Mar 18, 2014)

This depends on how Kakashi uses Kamui, as Orochimaru and Tsunade won't survive/dodge or even know it's coming. Also, i don't know why Jiraiya will automatically run to go SM. The man is cocky, he was cocky against Pain, was cocky against Itachi and Kisame as well all by himself, here with three people of his same level i don't see the need of thinking he needs SM, and that might be too late.

However, with manga knowledge, Gated Gai can smack any obstacle that is not a boss summon in Kakashi's way for him to warp, as Oro and Tsunade won't be effectively reacting to him. So, the best bet for them is to Kamui right away because if they summon, things are going to get too difficult, and while Gai and Kakashi can dance around their summons save probably Manda, with ease, all of them attacking together and combinating not shown methods will make it a bit hard.

Either way, Kakashi has shown enough stamina for more than three Kamui shots while Gai has shown enough speed to overwhelm any of the three and move between them.

It's not a stomp for either side, but if i had to put my bet, it would be on the Masters.


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## Mercurial (Mar 18, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> In this scenario I am thinking Tsunade and Orochimaru will keep Kakashi and Gai busy until J-Man gets SM ready.
> If J-Man gets Sage Mode then Kakashi and Gai are screwed. Tsunade herself can keep Gai entertained for a while, her regeneration and strength makes her a perfect counter, as long as she can hit Gai. IMO Tsunade can keep up her Regeneration as long as Gai can keep up 7th Gate, but once both of those run out, they are both screwed as their teammates will take each other out.
> With Gai keeping Tsunade apart that leaves Orochimaru against Kakashi. Orochimaru just simply hasn't shown a technique that can definitely hit and take Kakashi down. Orochimaru's only chance is the Sword of Kusanagi, which IMO Kakashi will see as a threat and Kamui away. While a single Kamui isn't enough to take Kakashi out of the game, it does weaken him enough so that he won't be able to take Orochimaru out.
> Once Orochimaru and Tsunade are both weak, along with Kakashi and Gai, J-Man takes them out quite easily. Neither Gai nor Kakashi have counters for Frog Song. So that alone will probably take them out.
> ...


Gai would blitz Tsunade and Hiru Tora/Asa Kujaku her face, or crash her skull. In base he is destroying boulders with casual hits, with Gates enhancement a simple kick from Gai is enough to hurt the Gedo Mazo and make him lose his footing, while Gedo is durable enough to tank a direct punch in the chest from BM + Cho Baika no jutsu Choji without even flinching a little. A combo of kicks like these on Tsunade's head? Please.

Kakashi can simply Kamui away Orochimaru like it's nothing, and he can use a lot of Kamui and fight on with the same high level of speed, reflexes and everything else, he has clearly shown the feats to be able to do these things.

Frog Song wouldn't even come in the play, Gai can destroy km with Hiru Tora, just compare the explosion he made with it to the giant turtle island. Kakashi can warp himself or Kamui GG in milliseconds. And Kakashi has shown in the war that he can literally spam things like Raikiri and Raiden to carve the boss summons, and Gai can kick the shit out of them like they are nothing. These two were fighting the V2 a lot better than KCM Naruto and Bee, Sannin's summons are strong but are like jokes in comparison. And the Sannin simply can't keep up.


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## Jad (Mar 18, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> In this scenario I am thinking Tsunade and Orochimaru will keep Kakashi and Gai busy until J-Man gets SM ready.
> If J-Man gets Sage Mode then Kakashi and Gai are screwed. Tsunade herself can keep Gai entertained for a while, her regeneration and strength makes her a perfect counter, as long as she can hit Gai. IMO Tsunade can keep up her Regeneration as long as Gai can keep up 7th Gate, but once both of those run out, they are both screwed as their teammates will take each other out.
> With Gai keeping Tsunade apart that leaves Orochimaru against Kakashi. Orochimaru just simply hasn't shown a technique that can definitely hit and take Kakashi down. Orochimaru's only chance is the Sword of Kusanagi, which IMO Kakashi will see as a threat and Kamui away. While a single Kamui isn't enough to take Kakashi out of the game, it does weaken him enough so that he won't be able to take Orochimaru out.
> Once Orochimaru and Tsunade are both weak, along with Kakashi and Gai, J-Man takes them out quite easily. Neither Gai nor Kakashi have counters for Frog Song. So that alone will probably take them out.
> ...



You guys really gotta stop overrating Tsunade's 'toughness' here, nothing is stopping Gai from splitting her in half. Lee in base, yes in Kyuubi form, was able to do so against Madara. Also:

I have a hard time seeing Tsunade staying conscious (let alone not have head blown off) with a 7 Gated blitzing to the head. I point out the 'conscious' part explicitly since I don't remember a ninjutsu or genjutsu technique that has worked when the user is _out_. Same with Orochimaru (the head being eviscerated of course). I mean a prepubescent Juubi Obito without fully matured powers, as seen without the coat, was able to completely break free of Myoun Jinmon [1][2]. He also effortless broke Sasuke's Sasunoo Rib Cage very easily [3].

Yet a much more powerful Juubidara was getting pushed back by a 7 Gated Gai, even after pointing out how he thought he [Madara] was being underestimated. Madara does not strike me as the type of guy to move backwards from strikes by someone he thought was underestimating him. He comes off as the type of guy who would want to show how insignificant that person really is [4]. So yeah, 7 Gated Gai should comfortably be able to blitz and kill either Tsunade or Orochimaru. They aren't made out of some form of diamond, let alone Sasuke's ribcage Sasuno's bone. Which a standing [stop] Raikage was able to break/shatter with one blow.

I point out the Raikage example because, the damage a 6th  Gated Gai did to the ground with the his victims body sort of resembles Ei _speeding_ elbow to Juugo's impact with the wall [5]. And Naruto's Odama Rasengan [6]. And just take into consideration, the body had to get through the bottom of the ocean, so it would have reduced the true impact.

When you put the Juubi Obito feat, how he quite comfortably broke free of Hashirama's technique, to how Gai was pushing back someone who is much stronger then Juubi Obito. You can get a feel of how much energy is being poured into those fists. Otherwise, Juubi Dara could have just comfortably blocked Gai's taijutsu with one hand and not moved one-inch. According to how most layer Gai's assault....

I go into great detail about Tsunade vs. Gai here . I reiterate, Tsunade may have wonderful regeneration, but the damage to the body can overturn that.​


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2014)

This thread should really wait until after we've seen what Gai can do with the 8th Gate.

With what we've seen so far, the Sannin probably win; they have Kakashi and Gai outnumbered, which is probably their biggest advantage here, and there's greater versatility between the three of them.

Gai is the most physically powerful here by a long shot, but he seriously lacks diversity, while Kakashi (for all his many Jutsu, and Kamui in particular) doesn't have the stamina to really compete with the Sannin for as long as they can keep going.

Kamui's probably gonna claim at least one, Gai may or may not take down another, but I don't think they have what it takes to burn through all three--not without the 8th Gate, anyway.


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## Turrin (Mar 18, 2014)

Depends 100% on 8th-Gate, but it's difficult seeing Taijutsu defeating Orochimaru, at this point.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Depends 100% on 8th-Gate, but it's difficult seeing Taijutsu defeating Orochimaru, at this point.



I was going to post a picture of Goku from Dragon Ball, but fuck it.

There are a bunch of guys even in Naruto who would violate Orochimaru with brute force, Taijutsu or otherwise.


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## Veracity (Mar 18, 2014)

If this was made 6 chapters ago then the Sannin would win mid difficulty. Now with these outrageous Gai feats, I assume the masters would win hard difficulty. With Gais inconsistent feats he an now pressure 2 Sannin at one time with pure speed leaving the other open for Kamui snip.

And LOL at them having more hype then the LEGENDARY Sannin that's funny.


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Mar 19, 2014)

Well. remember hype is based on who you fought to get that hype.  Right now Gai is going against the main villain, or second main villain depending on what the author throws at us...  Speed wise, we finally got to see what the 7th gate could do, it wound up doing almost nothing in the long run, however Gaara who was with all 5 Kages battling Madara looks on in shock..... Tsunade would have been back handed without a second thought if she were in Gai's place.


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## Bonly (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah. Welp someone go stick a fork in the Sannin because they are done.


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## trance (Mar 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Gai blitzes and splatters Tsunade and Orochimaru with the eighth gate. Kakashi Kamui's Jiraiya. Gai then dies. Masters win


.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah, after the latest chapter, Gai definitely solos and he does it with no difficulty whatsoever. 

Kakashi just...watches in horror.


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah, the last chapter ends this. U_U
Even putting Hashirama now with the Sannin won't be enough. lol


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## ShinobisWill (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai destroys them all, Kakashi drinks a soda


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 19, 2014)

Not really seeing how people are over analyzing this, Kakashi and Gai, on their own, are a match for the Sannin.

There is no counter to Kamui for any member of the opposing team, to suggest Jiraiya has time to enter SM is pretty ridiculous seeing as he's warped within the first 5 seconds of start battle.


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## StickaStick (Mar 19, 2014)

Replace Kakashi with Konohamaru for the lulz of saying he's the last ninja standing.


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If this was made 6 chapters ago then the Sannin would win mid difficulty. Now with these outrageous Gai feats, I assume the masters would win hard difficulty. With Gais inconsistent feats he an now pressure 2 Sannin at one time with pure speed leaving the other open for Kamui snip.
> 
> And LOL at them having more hype then the LEGENDARY Sannin that's funny.



LOL is what I say. Sannin's hype is... being defeated altogether by Hanzo alone, with the latter being merciful and not taking their lives? 

Kakashi even in part 1 is hyped to be Konoha's number one ninja and the most skilled ninjutsu master in the village (LOL at old ass Hiruzen), read it in chapter 113 and in 1st databook. The man was out of shape at the time, but could stand up against Itachi, being fucked by the MS, and had something like 1000 jutsu on his side. Kakashi is the son of Sakumo Hatake, one known to be > the Sannin by himself. Kakashi has been praised by Pain; not only he was fighting the strongest body, but Nagato sent the Asura too, against Jiraiya, he didn't sent Deva at all, we could say (we know he sent other bodies, and even if he sent all the Paths at the end, Fukasaku didn't know Deva's powers, as Kakashi had to discover them by himself). Kakashi is the rival of the motherfucking Obito Uchiha, and it's portrayed to be able to defeat his quantity with his quality and skill. 

Gai... is Kakashi's own rival. I don't even have to say anything else, or maybe the fact that Ei and Onoki and Tsunade and Mei needed to ganbang Madara's 1st stage of Susanoo, while Gai alone, in an exausted state, can stomp away Madara's 3rd stage Susanoo, surprising the Hachibi, who says about him and Kakashi that they really are strong or tough guys or something like this. The fact that Gai is the main actor in a fight against Rikudo Sennin 2.0...



DaVizWiz said:


> Not really seeing how people are over analyzing this, Kakashi and Gai, on their own, are a match for the Sannin.
> 
> There is no counter to Kamui for any member of the opposing team, to suggest Jiraiya has time to enter SM is pretty ridiculous seeing as he's warped within the first 5 seconds of start battle.



This. Luckily there are people who read the manga, and actually understand it.


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## ARGUS (Mar 19, 2014)

Guy solo stomps with the 8th gate,,, no debates necessary


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## ShinobisWill (Mar 19, 2014)

The best part is that this isn't even a draw. Gai murders the trio, dies and Kakashi takes the win for the team.


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## ? (Mar 19, 2014)

Kakashi and Gai win, and it's not even close.


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## Ersa (Mar 19, 2014)

It's 3 mice fighting Bruce Lee at this point.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Quite honestly, really isn't any need to use 8 Gates. Gai and Kakashi are powerful enough. Kamui and Hirudora spam.

Yes Hirudora spam. Gai is currently spamming Evening Elephant, it stands that he should be able to spam Hirudora. Especially considering his doing all this when not too long ago, he was leaning on Lee for support, from being exhausted. Don't see the Sannins really getting up from a Hirudora spam fest by a Healthy Gai.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't know about Hirudora, but Evening Elephant should work the same as Ura Renge with continuous hits, not a spamable tech.

Just sayin, I still believe the Masters will win w/o 8 gates.


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## Super Chief (Mar 19, 2014)

Ah, shit. I meant to vote for the Sannin instead.

Gai ain't going to risk opening all the Gates for two successive shots when Orochimaru always slips away, Tsunade can heal from almost anything and Jiraiya has Sage Mode with Ma and Pa able to use their genjutsu. 

There is very little chance of Gai and Kakashi winning this. Kamui on large targets makes Kakashi stumble. Even if he gets one Sannin, Gai won't be able to defend him against the two that are left.


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## Mithos (Mar 19, 2014)

If Gai uses the 8th Gate, he dies but The Masters win. 

If he doesn't, the Sannin win.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> If Gai uses the 8th Gate, he dies but The Masters win.
> 
> If he doesn't, the Sannin win.



Hirudora spam and Kamui Spam. Doubt the Sannin can win.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

No chance in hell Gai wins this alone. It would take everything he has just to kill a single one of them, let alone all 3.

As hax as Kamui has become it is hard to say how well Kakashi and Gai do in tandem. Kamui still suffers from the same problem that any eye technique and that is that blocking eyesight nullifies it. Still though, no knowledge (I think?) means one of the Sannin probably die from being surprised by it. 

I lean towards the Sannin here though. Strength in numbers as well as a significant strength increase when they combine as a team. Just so many options they have to mess up Gai and Kakashi.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> No chance in hell Gai wins this alone. It would take everything he has just to kill a single one of them, let alone all 3..





*Spoiler*: _More final gate wank_ 



He could commit suicide and kill them all. In the 8th Gate, he would punch them to pieces before they could even process what happened. He ran legit circles around Jubi Jin Madara, who is a few tiers above the Sannin in terms of everything, including speed.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: _More final gate wank_
> 
> 
> 
> He could commit suicide and kill them all. In the 8th Gate, he would punch them to pieces before they could even process what happened. He ran legit circles around Jubi Jin Madara, who is a few tiers above the Sannin in terms of everything, including speed.



As Gai charges gates Jiraiya throws out multiple KB's, Oro uses LAC to go underground and Tsunade activates her seal. He can't touch Oro, pick the right Jiraiya or do enough damage to kill Tsunade. He dies, leaving Kakashi all alone vs 3 Sannin.


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2014)

The Sannin are capable of pushing Hagoromo to a corner.

Gai is shit compared to them.


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## Garcher (Mar 19, 2014)

Guy goes 8 gates and solos, Kakashi is the last one standing. Masters win.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 19, 2014)

Wat. 

Is there still any doubt that 8 Gates Gai stomps Sannin? Are you telling me Sannin is more durable, faster, have better defense and reflexes than Jubi Jin? Are you saying Sannin can dodge sth not even Jubidara can react properly? 

8 gates Gai draws leaving Kakashi as the winner for the Masters, Sannin is utter fodder compared to Jubidara.


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## Skywalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Not much of a match, they are going to get steamrolled by Gai, if for some reason that doesn't work, Kakashi snipes them.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Pink mist - Pink Mist everywhere.

I think Sannin's should get some more help. The three of them will not satisfy 8th Gate Gai.

Well, personally, Hirudora spam is enough. But other then that, if you just want to say 8 Gates GG. Then pink mist this entire field up. Gai might have some stamina left to talk with Kakashi about how he wants to be buried.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Man the Gai wank is through the roof. Always expected when someone gets a new feat but hilarious as well.

The funny part is Gai can't even touch Oro and if he can he likely can't kill him. 


Although soon Oro will probably get some new feat and suddenly people will be talking about him soloing this match. Never fails in the BD.


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2014)

Wait, it can't be worse than saying the likes of Karin can defeat Itachi.


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> As Gai charges gates Jiraiya throws out multiple KB's, Oro uses LAC to go underground and Tsunade activates her seal. He can't touch Oro, pick the right Jiraiya or do enough damage to kill Tsunade. He dies, leaving Kakashi all alone vs 3 Sannin.



This is fanfiction. Gai doesn't need to charge the Gates, as he has shown, he entered 7th Gate and used Hiru Tora before Madara's Susanoo sword could hit from a short distance, he entered 6th Gate and counterblitzed the V2 together with Kakashi before they, who were rushing to attack, could reach them. And Kakashi can insta warp anyone's head or body with Kamui, not to mention that he is massively faster and smarter than them. Gated Gai and Kakashi destroy them, they can't keep up, they can't defend.



Jagger said:


> Wait, it can't be worse than saying the likes of Karin can defeat Itachi.



That's not Karin. That's Karen Uzamaki 

And also Hashirama < Sannin is good.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Mar 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Not even the almighty Base Jiraiya can stop the Power of Youth now.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> This is fanfiction. Gai doesn't need to charge the Gates, as he has shown, he entered 7th Gate and used Hiru Tora before Madara's Susanoo sword could hit from a short distance, he entered 6th Gate and counterblitzed the V2 together with Kakashi before they, who were rushing to attack, could reach them.



When I said charge I meant activate. Essentially I mean they can get off any 1 jutsu before he is at 8 gates. 



> And Kakashi can insta warp anyone's head or body with Kamui, not to mention that he is massively faster and smarter than them. Gated Gai and Kakashi destroy them, they can't keep up, they can't defend.



Kakashi is massively faster and smarter than whom exactly? He is in the same speed tier as Oro and Jiraiya and he may be slightly smarter than Oro who is the most intelligent Sannin.

As for the Kamui insta warp?.I have said Kakashi should be able to catch one of them without knowledge. With knowledge it is a matter of blocking his sight or giving him too many targets. KB from Oro and Jiraiya would be an option as well as summons to deal with.

In any case there is no way in hell they stomp though there is a chance they can win. You are severely overrating what they can do compared to what the Sannin can do.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> As Gai charges gates Jiraiya throws out multiple KB's, Oro uses LAC to go underground and Tsunade activates her seal. He can't touch Oro, pick the right Jiraiya or do enough damage to kill Tsunade. He dies, leaving Kakashi all alone vs 3 Sannin.






Cyphon said:


> Man the Gai wank is through the roof. Always expected when someone gets a new feat but hilarious as well.
> 
> The funny part is Gai can't even touch Oro and if he can he likely can't kill him.
> 
> ...



Dude I understand and its okay. Gai stomps my favorite now too. It's hard I know, but this is beyond delusional. You'll learn to accept it.


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## richard lewis (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Man the Gai wank is through the roof. Always expected when someone gets a new feat but hilarious as well.
> 
> The funny part is Gai can't even touch Oro and if he can he likely can't kill him.
> 
> ...



I really don't think he's getting wanked at all, obito was fighting evenly with sasuke, naruto, minato, and tobirama "each of whom are far above the individual sannin". Madara is even stronger than obito and yet gai is still smacking him round like a pinball "granted his insane durability is allowing him to tank most of the hits". Jiraiya is gunna be blitzed and killed, there's not much he can do here, even oro stated himself that there is a limit to his durability this so evening elephant will kill him, even AT would do critical damage. Gai in 7th gate plus kakashi spamming kamui ill result in a loss for the sannin.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 19, 2014)

Jesus, unless you think Sannin > Jubidara, there's no point why 8 Gated Gai can't vaporize Oro. 

New feats is good when actually produces results against someone who's several tiers stronger, so at least it's not wanking in here since a non-serious Jubidara can fodderize any versions of Sannin with 0 difficulty. Gai does pressure Jubidara, that means a lot.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Dude I understand and its okay. Gai stomps my favorite now too. It's hard I know, but this is beyond delusional. You'll learn to accept it.



Not sure who your favorite is but that isn't relevant. It takes everything Gai has to beat any individual Sannin. There is no chance he solos all 3. Delusional indeed BD.



richard lewis said:


> I really don't think he's getting wanked at all, obito was fighting evenly with sasuke, naruto, minato, and tobirama "each of whom are far above the individual sannin". Madara is even stronger than obito and yet gai is still smacking him round like a pinball "granted his insane durability is allowing him to tank most of the hits".



1. ABC logic doesn't work in this manga.

2. Madara is allowing himself to be smacked around. In fact, he is having fun doing it. Gai wouldn't have even been able to touch him without the help from Minato, Kakashi, Gaara and Lee. 



> Jiraiya is gunna be blitzed and killed, there's not much he can do here, even oro stated himself that there is a limit to his durability this so evening elephant will kill him, .



Not likely. At the beginning of the match Jiraiya can use KB's to misdirect Gai forcing him to choose between targets. That is assuming he chose to go after Jiraiya first. While he is aiming for him (again, assuming he went that route) Tsunade activates her seal and summons Katsuya (meaning she more or less can't be killed) and Oro uses LAC to go underground so Gai can't even locate him before he dies from the strain of 8 gates. 



Legendary Itachi said:


> Jesus, unless you think Sannin > Jubidara, there's no point why 8 Gated Gai can't vaporize Oro.



I would be interested in seeing a physical attack actually vaporize something. Do we have any precedent for that in the manga?


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> 2. Madara is allowing himself to be smacked around. In fact, he is having fun doing it.




No he isn't...

What is your basis for that claim? He's having "fun," sure, but he isn't allowing himself to be hit. He is shown actively attempting to guard, trying to counter-attack and kill guy, and even exclaimed that he absolutely did not want to get struck directly by one of Gai's condensed EE's.



> Gai wouldn't have even been able to touch him without the help from Minato, Kakashi, Gaara and Lee.




Gai landed 4 out of 5 Elephant punches before those four assisted.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What is your basis for that claim? He's having "fun," sure, but he isn't allowing himself to be hit. He is shown actively attempting to guard, trying to counter-attack and kill guy, and even exclaimed that he absolutely did not want to get struck directly by one of Gai's condensed EE's.



Here he says he will indulge Gai in a fight and be entertained. Furthermore he popped out without any defense in place or seemingly without trying any attack he should be capable of. And when he finally put up his real defense (the all encompassing one) Gai needed everyones assistance for any chance of success.

Even after taking all of that damage Madara was nothing but excited at the prospect. 

This isn't meant as a knock on Gai. He is fighting the strongest character we have ever seen but he isn't honestly accomplishing much of anything. Madara is basically toying with him at this point.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai is pushing Madara, Madara with 0 effort would solo the Sannin.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Gai is pushing Madara, Madara with 0 effort would solo the Sannin.



Gai isn't pushing Madara. Madara is indulging Gai like he did with everyone else he has faced. Gai just happens to be the most effective ant at this point.

The Sannin don't have to indulge him though. Oro can simply hide underground and let Gai kill himself trying to kill the other 2. 

Nobody has still countered any of those points. They just keep using faulty ABC logic and using it poorly at that.


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## richard lewis (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Not sure who your favorite is but that isn't relevant. It takes everything Gai has to beat any individual Sannin. There is no chance he solos all 3. Delusional indeed BD.



7th gate should be enough to take out any of the sannin 1v1, kamui can take out another and it's 2 on 1 from there. BTW gai is not my favorite character.



Cyphon said:


> 1. ABC logic doesn't work in this manga.
> 
> 2. Madara is allowing himself to be smacked around. In fact, he is having fun doing it. Gai wouldn't have even been able to touch him without the help from Minato, Kakashi, Gaara and Lee.



It's not really ABC logic, If you can blitz madara who has BM naruto lvl speed plus SM danger sensing then you can blitz anyone "aside from S/T users", especially the sannin who are *SEVERAL* tiers below him in terms of speed/sensing. Madara isn't allowing himself to be smacked around lol excited he's clearly trying to defend and gai shattered his defenses excited. 



Cyphon said:


> Not likely. At the beginning of the match Jiraiya can use KB's to misdirect Gai forcing him to choose between targets. That is assuming he chose to go after Jiraiya first. While he is aiming for him (again, assuming he went that route) Tsunade activates her seal and summons Katsuya (meaning she more or less can't be killed) and Oro uses LAC to go underground so Gai can't even locate him before he dies from the strain of 8 gates.



Jiraiya can use KB's but tsunade and Oro can't, and jiraiya has never shown the ability to use TKB so he's making only 1 or 2 at a time. All the are going to do is stall, 7 gates gai is gunna blitz his KB's with ease. Jiraiya need's a boss summon to keep his distance however his summon will get nuked by AT, and then jiriaya get's nuked shortly thereafter. Meanwhile kakashi oneshots either tsunade or Oro with kamui and then it's 2 on 1 and they can take their time with whoever the survivor is.



Cyphon said:


> I would be interested in seeing a physical attack actually vaporize something. Do we have any precedent for that in the manga?



To my knowledge only 2 jutsu in the manga have ever been shown actually vaporizing something and those are FRS and jinton. However I think it's reasonable to assume that BD's, madara's black orbs, Evening Elephant, among other jutsu should be able to install kill nearly anyone even if they do not "vaporize" them.


I don't think you understand just how strong gai is. Madara w/o the juubi defeated sasuke, tobirama and all 9 buju, he would baby shake the sannin. Now where taking this man who's is already in a totally different league from the sannin and boosting him even further and yet gai can still keep up. That alone should explain why kakashi and gai when this.


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> When I said charge I meant activate. Essentially I mean they can get off any 1 jutsu before he is at 8 gates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't ignore feat please. If Gai can open the Gates and actually attack in windows of time a lot shorter than the Sannin's jutsu execution speed, you can't say "Gai opens Gates and they do their jutsu". It's not a chess game, people don't have to make a move in the same time of another move, if they aren't fast enough. Also Kakashi is here too, anche he can warp himself behind the Sannin and Raikiri them, or simply warp them away with Kamui.

Please don't rely on a databook whose incongruences are bigger than the Pacific Ocean. Deidara and Sasuke are in the same speed tier, yet one nearly blitzes another and is called too fast to being fought on terrain. By feats we have Kakashi counterblitzing and hitting with Raikiri some V2 who were troubling Hachibi Bee and KCM Naruto (chap. 566), reacting and moving on par with Minato (chap. 657) and outspeeding and outreacting Obito, one who could perfectly keep up with KCM Naruto's no Shunshin speed (on par with V1 Raikage). Kakashi would blitz them with ease with superior speed, Sharingan precognition and unblockable Raiton nintaijutsu, also he can warp himself to teleport freely, even if it costs chakra, we have seen how his stamina improved. Kakashi has far, far, far better feats and hype as a genius fighter than Orochimaru, Orochimaru is a wonderful evil planner, but when he is in a fight he uses his brain less than fucking Raikage.

One of them? Actually he can catch the three of them without any problem. All together, if they are nearly (Gedo Mazo arm feat) or one after another. His timing and his MS activation/jutsu execution is something they can't even react, just look at his feats.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Here he says he will indulge Gai in a fight and be entertained. Furthermore he popped out without any defense in place or seemingly without trying any attack he should be capable of. And when he finally put up his real defense (the all encompassing one) Gai needed everyones assistance for any chance of success.




First off, Madara said he would indulge Gai and "entertain [the idea of] a fight." He is using the other definition of "entertain," not claiming he'll be amused.

Any attack Madara would have tried would have been avoided. As you can see in the following pages, Gai is much faster than Madara. He did attempt a guard, but Gai ran around it and hit him four subsequent times. Madara then tired the omnidirectional defense so Gai couldn't continue raping him in a blur of youth, and that's where the assistance came in handy.



> Even after taking all of that damage Madara was nothing but excited at the prospect.




Madara compared it to the battle with Hashirama, which he lost. This is Madara's IC attitude, even towards opponents that are stronger than him. 



> This isn't meant as a knock on Gai. He is fighting the strongest character we have ever seen but he isn't honestly accomplishing much of anything. Madara is basically toying with him at this point.




Please give me one scan where the implication that this is a game to Madara was made. I'm interested to see what the official translation has Madara saying, but I don't particularly care. He spent the entire chapter getting his ass beat, screaming and spitting up blood. The reason he_ likes_ it is because it remind him of Hashirama, who was the last opponent he fought that could kick his ass.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> 7th gate should be enough to take out any of the tannin 1v1



No way. There isn't enough damage output to kill either Tsunade or Oro and at best it would force a draw with Jiraiya but that is unlikely given his versatility. 



> Kamui can take out another and it's 2 on 1 from there.



Again, highly unlikely. He would be fairly fortunate to take out 1 (assuming there is knowledge). If there is no knowledge he will maybe get 1 but highly unlikely he gets a 2nd. There are too many ways they can block his vision or present targets he has to deal with first. 



> It's not really ABC logic



It is ABC logic.

If Madara (A) can beat Sannin (B) and Gai [C] can hurt Madara, Gai can solo the Sannin (might have these lettered incorrectly but you get the point). Like I said, not only is it ABC logic but it is bad ABC logic at best. Because Madara can beat the Sannin sure, but it isn't like Gai can actually beat Madara. So C isn't > A but you are using the logic as if it is. 



> Jiraiya can use KB's but tsunade and Oro can't, and jiraiya has never shown the ability to use TKB so he's making only 1 or 2 at a time.



Oro can use KB. He has done it before and Jiraiya doesn't need more than 1 or 2 at a time. 



> All the are going to do is stall, 7 gates gai is gunna blitz his KB's with ease. Jiraiya need's a boss summon to keep his distance however his summon will get nuked by AT, and then jiriaya get's nuked shortly thereafter.



So basically you are saying Kakashi has no problems taking on Oro and Tsunade while Gai deals with Jiraiya 

I can't even take you seriously after this so I will just leave it here. 



Raikiri19 said:


> Don't ignore feat please. If Gai can open the Gates and actually attack in windows of time a lot shorter than the Sannin's jutsu execution speed, you can't say "Gai opens Gates and they do their jutsu".



Proof that he can do it faster than they can execute jutsu please.

Jiraiya was able to summon a frog while Kisame was in midswing with his sword. It doesn't get a whole lot faster than that. 



> Please don't rely on a databook whose incongruences are bigger than the Pacific Ocean.



In case you haven't noticed the manga hasn't exactly been consistent with feats and statements either. So if we can rely on one, we can rely on the other. 

As I said, they are in the same speed tier. Kakashi has no chance of blitzing a single one of the Sannin. 



> Kakashi has far, far, far better feats and hype as a genius fighter than Orochimaru, Orochimaru is a wonderful evil planner, but when he is in a fight he uses his brain less than fucking Raikage.



I agree Kakashi is a better tactician than Oro. But the level of intelligence isn't far off. 



> Actually he can catch the three of them without any problem.



Sure, that is realistically possible. I will add you to the list of people I can no longer take seriously. This will be my last response to you for awhile.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> First off, Madara said he would indulge Gai and "entertain [the idea of] a fight." He is using the other definition of "entertain," not claiming he'll be amused.



It is the same thing in this context. Madara could have stayed in the hole, attempted retreat, attacked or came up and formed his perfect D right away. Instead he wanted to test what Gai was capable of. 



> Any attack Madara would have tried would have been avoided. As you can see in the following pages, Gai is much faster than Madara.



Most likely, yes. But when has that ever stopped someone from trying? If you are in a battle for your life you try to kill your opponent. Madara just didn't care enough to do so because the threat isn't real. 



> He did attempt a guard, but Gai ran around it and hit him four subsequent times.



And if you notice Madara simply watched Gai and waited for him to attack before attempting any defense. Meaning he was able to react to the speed and direction of Gai's attack before he changed direction. If Madara was that worried he would have formed his defense sooner and made it the full ball.

You really have no ground to stand on here. It is all right there in front of you. You are just blinded by hype. 



> Madara compared it to the battle with Hashirama, which he lost. This is Madara's IC attitude, even towards opponents that are stronger than him.



He said he hasn't had that much fun. And the only reason that is even true is because Gai has the support of 4 other shinobi right now. Had Madara wanted Gai wouldn't have ever been able to touch him because he could have used his full defense from the beginning.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Then why did Madara said TO HIMSELF that he had to avoid being punched? You make no sense, Madara clearly admited the threat to be real.

Not to mention his clearly hurried/shocked face when he saw Gai approaching him before he finished his black ball "He is coming!"


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Then why did Madara said TO HIMSELF that he had to avoid being punched? You make no sense, Madara clearly admited the threat to be real.



Tsunade also said she couldn't be killed in battle. I win.

Seriously though, saying isn't doing. He said that while jumping straight up to where Gai was without attacking or activating any defense. Kishi has a problem with characters saying shit that doesn't make sense a lot of the time. If he was so concerned why not immediately active his full defense? Why not attempt to attack Gai? Why wait until Gai attacked as opposed to forming any kind of defense initially?


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## Shodai (Mar 19, 2014)

Can't u see how simple life is...forget titles, numbers, levels and look at how thing works
Gai run at 300km/h, Akatsuki don't
SIMULATION: Gai in akatsuki's base
Akatsuki learder: "HOLLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT GREEN THING MOVING AT 300KM/H"
Itachi confused: "I DON'T KNOW DAMN, MY 3 TOMOE SHARIGAN CAN'T SEE"
Then Sasori summon 100 puppets but it fails...Sasori start cry when Gai in less than 5 seconds destroy all his puppets with a extremely high speed combo...Sasori became history with just one Punch

When Deidara see that scene, shestarts blow the base with bombs without even think
the chaos and the panic take control of all members external image omfg.gif
Itachi scream: "JESUS CRIST WE GONNA DIE"
Itachi starts run as usual, but its useless he got pwned by a kick at 300km/h, now with 70% of his bones completely broken Itachi scream:" JESUS CRIST MY LEGS...I CAN'T MOVE MY LEGS"external image cryinganime.gif
imagine the situation...something moving at 300km/h and u cant do nothing...U GONNA DIE!!!
Hidan crying start prey: "LORD CAN U HEAR, ME SAVE MY ASS I'M GONNA DI..kicked in his head at 300km/h
while that zetsu stand without move trying to pass as a tree
Deidara start to fly out of the base, its useless she is cut in half by one kick
While the only thing u can hear are bones breaking, Kakuzu offer money in trade of his life
Gai don't give a darn and Kakuzu legs and etc are now around the all base
The End


Gai solos the sannins while kakashi watches dumbfounded


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> It is the same thing in this context. Madara could have stayed in the hole, attempted retreat, attacked or came up and formed his perfect D right away. Instead he wanted to test what Gai was capable of.




Ok, so you obviously don''t know who Madara is.

Rewind to the time where Madara, despite standing on top of a projectile firepower godfox, charged straight into CQC with Sage Hashirama's 100 mile statue. Notice how Madara didn't back off and attack Shin suusenju with Bijuudama from afar while avoiding its fists. Do you think Madara chose not to do that because Hashirama wasn't a real threat to him? 



> Most likely, yes. But when has that ever stopped someone from trying? If you are in a battle for your life you try to kill your opponent. Madara just didn't care enough to do so because the threat isn't real.




Madara was trying to kill Hashirama when he stood there and waited for Shodai to enter Sage Mode. It doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's just how Madara does battle, even with serious opponents. 



> And if you notice Madara simply watched Gai and waited for him to attack before attempting any defense. Meaning he was able to react to the speed and direction of Gai's attack before he changed direction. If Madara was that worried he would have formed his defense sooner and made it the full ball.




The problem with that is...well, Madara isn't a bitch. It would've have been extremely OOC and poor writing if Kishimoto had Madara preemptively turtle away in fear of Gai. After Gai _*proved* too much _for him to handle, Madara had no other choice but to wrap himself away. 



> He said he hasn't had that much fun. And the only reason that is even true is because Gai has the support of 4 other shinobi right now. Had Madara wanted Gai wouldn't have ever been able to touch him because he could have used his full defense from the beginning.




The same thing could've been said if Madara just ran away from Shinsuusenju at the VoTe and took advantage of Kurama's range. It doesn't accomplish anything; it isn't a true "battle."


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Rewind to the time where Madara, despite standing on top of a projectile firepower godfox, charged straight into CQC with Sage Hashirama's 100 mile statue. Notice how Madara didn't back off and attack Shin suusenju with Bijuudama from afar while avoiding its fists. Do you think Madara chose not to do that because Hashirama wasn't a real threat to him?



Fair point.

You can't compare the 2 situations though. They were lifetime, bitter rivals and there is no way someone is going to back down. 



> The problem with that is...well, Madara isn't a bitch. It would've have been extremely OOC and poor writing if Kishimoto had Madara preemptively turtle away in fear of Gai. After Gai _*proved* too much _for him to handle, Madara had no other choice but to wrap himself away.



So we are using plot now? Well it would also be poor writing for Kishi to have Gai solo the Sannin as well. So if we are looking at it from a manga perspective it isn't very likely either.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Fair point.
> 
> You can't compare the 2 situations though. They were lifetime, bitter rivals and there is no way someone is going to back down.




Personally, I would not ride Kurama into battle against Hashirama's statue. Rival or not. That's where me and Madara differ.

You're trying to say that Madara could've have fought Gai more intelligently, and that is true. However, he could've fought everyone he's ever fought more intelligently when viewed by a reader. Madara is some meat head war fiend that lives for battle. It's in his nature to face challenges head on, even if it isn't the smartest option.



> So we are using plot now? Well it would also be poor writing for Kishi to have Gai solo the Sannin as well. So if we are looking at it from a manga perspective it isn't very likely either.




It isn't using plot, it's speaking to a particular person's _character_. That's the whole point of the mindset stipulation here in the Battledome. Madara may not fight like you think he should, but that doesn't mean the threat he is facing isn't real. He's done far dumber things then test out Gai as the Jubi's Jinchuriki, such as test out the big ass Shin Suusenju as *not* the jubi's Jinchuriki.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You're trying to say that Madara could've have fought Gai more intelligently, and that is true. However, he could've fought everyone he's ever fought more intelligently when viewed by a reader. Madara is some meat head war fiend that lives for battle. It's in his nature to face challenges head on, even if it isn't the smartest option.



There is a difference between smart and worried. If he was genuinely worried it would be instinctual to throw up a defense, regardless of if he was smart enough to know better. So while I agree that his character won't allow him to take the absolute best course, there is no reason for me to believe pure survival instinct wouldn't have him take that course if his fear matched his words. 



> It isn't using plot, it's speaking to a particular person's _character_. That's the whole point of the mindset stipulation here in the Battledome.



Fair enough but you said "poor writing". I was just pointing out that it would also be poor writing to have Gai solo the Sannin.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> There is a difference between smart and worried. If he was genuinely worried it would be instinctual to throw up a defense, regardless of if he was smart enough to know better. So while I agree that his character won't allow him to take the absolute best course, there is no reason for me to believe pure survival instinct wouldn't have him take that course if his fear matched his words.




Wh...what? 

Okay yes, I agree with all of that, but when exactly did anyone say that Madara _feared_ Gai? Madara wasn't worried about Gai at all (at first), even if Gai can beat the shit out of him. He was the same way with Sage Hashirama.

If you're speaking about Madara being weary of Gai's direct punches, then it's really just a matter of Madara underestimating him. Madara didn't realize Gai was capable of blitzing around his guard and socking him four times before he could move. That's when he got worried and tried to turtle up.




> Fair enough but you said "poor writing". I was just pointing out that it would also be poor writing to have Gai solo the Sannin.




It actually wouldn't be...

Gai's Gated hype is "power above 5 Kage" and Gai's currently making Jubidara look bad. Jubidara is the same who guy who would shit on the Sannin, neg difficulty.

Gai would die after anyway. It isn't like Gai's been portrayed above the Sannin without the gate of death.


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## richard lewis (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> No way. There isn't enough damage output to kill either Tsunade or Oro and at best it would force a draw with Jiraiya but that is unlikely given his versatility.



AT should be around the same strength if not stronger than KN4 naruto's menacing which oro himself stated would kill him. the sannin MIGHT be quick enough to use a summon as a shield but gai just rushes them on the other side and nukes them again. Jiriaya would be dead for sure "IDK how he's gunna draw?", oro would be in critical condition if not dead, tsunade could arguable regenerate from the attack but this is why kakashi is here to kamui her. 



Cyphon said:


> Again, highly unlikely. He would be fairly fortunate to take out 1 (assuming there is knowledge). If there is no knowledge he will maybe get 1 but highly unlikely he gets a 2nd. There are too many ways they can block his vision or present targets he has to deal with first.



I would love an explanation for how any of the sannin can dodge kamui? tsunade is definitely not dodging, oro and jiraiya like you said can use clone/replacements "which I find highly unlikely". So at the very least tsunade would get 1 shot.



Cyphon said:


> It is ABC logic.
> 
> If Madara (A) can beat Sannin (B) and Gai [C] can hurt Madara, Gai can solo the Sannin (might have these lettered incorrectly but you get the point). Like I said, not only is it ABC logic but it is bad ABC logic at best. Because Madara can beat the Sannin sure, but it isn't like Gai can actually beat Madara. So C isn't > A but you are using the logic as if it is.



Your not lising to what I said sir... I said gai blitzed madara who is several tiers above the sannin in speed which means he can also blitz the sannin, that's not ABC logic it's common sense. AT can then nuke the sannin and at close range it's virtually impossible for them to put up a defense.



Cyphon said:


> Oro can use KB. He has done it before and Jiraiya doesn't need more than 1 or 2 at a time.



I don't recall oro ever using KB's only replacements which are far weaker and easier to spot. ANd you still haven't explained what a KB is gunna do for them?



Cyphon said:


> So basically you are saying Kakashi has no problems taking on Oro and Tsunade while Gai deals with Jiraiya



Pretty much, kakashi has warped faster and larger targets than these guys.



Cyphon said:


> As I said, they are in the same speed tier. Kakashi has no chance of blitzing a single one of the Sannin.



I'd have to disagree here, kakashi and gai where keeping up with V2 jins. This is something we know jiraiya can't do b/c he got his chest blown open by KN4 naruto and the other sannin are at best equal to him in speed.



Cyphon said:


> I agree Kakashi is a better tactician than Oro. But the level of intelligence isn't far off.



yes but oro is cocky which will be his downfall, he tends to stand there and let people hit him "i.e. itachi's totsuika" which will be the cause of his downfall.

It should also be noted that it is not IC for the sannin to bring out their boss summons unless their opponents are also using boss summons. Tsunade didn't use her boss summon at all against kabuto, neither did oro against kn4 naruto. and jiraiya only used boss summon against pain b/c pain used summons first and he desummoned his boss summon once pain's summons where dead. so It's unlikely that they are going to pull out boss summons early on in the fight. which mean kakashi could beat any one of them in base and gai will find it even easier to blitz.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gai's Gated hype is "power above 5 Kage" and Gai's currently making Jubidara look bad. Jubidara is the same who guy who would shit on the Sannin, neg difficulty.



I would like to know more about how that was translation but my guess is that it means he is stronger than anyone of them individually which the same thing was said way back in part 1. I believe it was Kakashi who said something about the gates granting you temporary power even above the Kage.

And again, ABC logic doesn't work. Gai being super effective vs 1 person who is letting him attack does not mean he would be as effective vs 3 weaker opponents all doing different things and using different strategies.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> As for the Kamui insta warp….I have said Kakashi should be able to catch one of them without knowledge. With knowledge it is a matter of blocking his sight or giving him too many targets. KB from Oro and Jiraiya would be an option as well as summons to deal with.



Are they going to weave seals and make clones before a much faster technique is executed? No they aren't. Unless they are going to try to block Kakashi's line of sight constantly which they aren't going to do.



> In any case there is no way in hell they stomp though there is a chance they can win. You are severely overrating what they can do compared to what the Sannin can do.



Have you not seen the feats Gai and Kakashi achieved during this war? When you dominate the second strongest person to ever walk the earth, you don't get overrated.



Cyphon said:


> Gai isn't pushing Madara. Madara is indulging Gai like he did with everyone else he has faced. Gai just happens to be the most effective ant at this point.
> 
> The Sannin don't have to indulge him though. Oro can simply hide underground and let Gai kill himself trying to kill the other 2.
> 
> Nobody has still countered any of those points. They just keep using faulty ABC logic and using it poorly at that.



He is pushing Madara. He is injuring him, Madara is actively trying to defend himself, and Madara even comments on how Gai's attacks are dangerous. The mere fact that he compares this battle to his fight against Hashirma alone should prove he isn't dicking around. He enjoyed his battle with Hashirama too. It didn't mean he took that one lightly. 

Did you not see the giant hole Gai created with one punch? Orochimaru will die if he tries that. ABC logic isn't inherently flawed. If Usain Bolt can beat Tyson Gay in a race and Tyson Gay can beat me, then Usain can beat me as well. Likewise, if Gai can dominate Madara who is vastly superior to the sannin in every way imaginable, then he can certainly defeat the sannin.



Cyphon said:


> No way. There isn't enough damage output to kill either Tsunade or Oro and at best it would force a draw with Jiraiya but that is unlikely given his versatility.



Exactly why can't it kill them? Oro has never shown the capacity to survive such an attack. He even admitted 4 tailed Naruto's bijuudama and implied Katsuyu's acid could kill him. Just one evening elephant from Gai is beyond any of those attacks. Tsunade is understandable, but her regeneration has it's limits. Her body getting mangled beyond repair is one of them. Jiraiya outright dies without any sort of room for debate. Versatility is a meaningless word. He outright lacks any ability to survive one of those hits and lacks any means to avoid or block it. Even your clone feint argument falls short since nothing is stopping Gai from destroying every clone he sees.



> Again, highly unlikely. He would be fairly fortunate to take out 1 (assuming there is knowledge). If there is no knowledge he will maybe get 1 but highly unlikely he gets a 2nd. There are too many ways they can block his vision or present targets he has to deal with first.



Name a single way they can avoid line of sight before Kamui is used. Just one. They have exactly three ways to stop line of sight. Summon meat shields, clone feints, and Ma and Pa's dust cloud. All too slow before Kamui.



> It is ABC logic.
> 
> If Madara (A) can beat Sannin (B) and Gai [C] can hurt Madara, Gai can solo the Sannin (might have these lettered incorrectly but you get the point). Like I said, not only is it ABC logic but it is bad ABC logic at best. Because Madara can beat the Sannin sure, but it isn't like Gai can actually beat Madara. So C isn't > A but you are using the logic as if it is.



It isn't bad logic at all. Madara is vastly superior to the sannin. Gai is dominating that Madara. Even though Gai can't beat Madara, that alone is enough to show that the sannin stand no chance.



> Oro can use KB. He has done it before and Jiraiya doesn't need more than 1 or 2 at a time.



Oro never used Kage Bunshins in the manga as far as I can remember. He used an earth clone against Hiruzen, but that was anime only. 2 Clones are not going to help Jiraiya here.



> Jiraiya was able to summon a frog while Kisame was in midswing with his sword. It doesn't get a whole lot faster than that.



Comparing Kisame to Gai of all people? Slap yourself. Even Sasuke could summon Manda and hope into it's mouth before something way faster than a sword swing could reach him. But guess what, Gai would blitz the living crap out of him.



Cyphon said:


> Here he says he will indulge Gai in a fight and be entertained. Furthermore he popped out without any defense in place or seemingly without trying any attack he should be capable of. And when he finally put up his real defense (the all encompassing one) Gai needed everyones assistance for any chance of success.
> 
> Even after taking all of that damage Madara was nothing but excited at the prospect.
> 
> This isn't meant as a knock on Gai. He is fighting the strongest character we have ever seen but he isn't honestly accomplishing much of anything. Madara is basically toying with him at this point.



Madara's defense can be used near instantly, as he showed when he blocked one of Gai's punches. Madara was excited in his battles against Hashirama like there was no tomorrow. He lost both of those battles. Honestly you should know by now that they guy doesn't care. He simply loves battle. Unless you thought he toyed with Hashirama as well.

More like he's toying with Madara. Madara is the one getting his shit rocked, not Gai. Considering he could punch Madara right through that thing, there really is no basis to say that shield would have protected Madara. Kakashi obviously did that as they want to maximize the damage Madara receives.



Cyphon said:


> Not sure who your favorite is but that isn't relevant. It takes everything Gai has to beat any individual Sannin. There is no chance he solos all 3. Delusional indeed BD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My favorite is Sasuke, another character who would stomp the sannin incidentally. But of course I doubt you agree.

Gai is not stronger than Madara. We know this. But you have to be crazy to think being able to beat the Juubi's Jin on your own is the bar minimum for beating the sannin. You know your delusional when being stronger than the Gokage and dominating Madara is not enough to defeat sannin, who themselves were beaten by one man in their freaking prime.

ABC logic works in this manga just fine. It just doesn't work in all cases as most victory's come not from superior skill or power, but because one combatants abilities matches up to another in an effective way.

He blitzed Madara and hit him a few times before anyone helped him. Again, beating Madara isn't the minimum requirement for beaten the sannin. Nothing is actually stopping Gai from taking out any and all clones Jiraiya conjures.


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## richard lewis (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> And again, ABC logic doesn't work. Gai being super effective vs 1 person *who is letting him attack* does not mean he would be as effective vs 3 weaker opponents all doing different things and using different strategies.



Accept madara isn't letting him attack, he's been trying to defend/counter but gai is to strong and shattering his defenses.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I would like to know more about how that was translation but my guess is that it means he is stronger than anyone of them individually which the same thing was said way back in part 1. I believe it was Kakashi who said something about the gates granting you temporary power even above the Kage.




Individually would be an understatement based on showings, so yeah, I'd like to see the offcial translation.



> And again, ABC logic doesn't work. Gai being super effective vs 1 person who is letting him attack does not mean he would be as effective vs 3 weaker opponents all doing different things and using different strategies.




Madara isn't letting Gai attack (we've been over this).

And ABC logic can sometimes be applicable. The Sannin are "weaker" than Jubidara in the same sense that a possum is "weaker" than a Megalodon. If Gai can temporarily bend Jubidara over, then it's safe to say that this thread is basically " three gazelle vs. Azlan."


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2014)

Madara's actions and words didn't show he was playing around. The guy said he could not afford to get hit (word) and turtled up trying to protect himself fro Gai's attacks (actions), and was clearly worried about himself when hitting (Action).

Nothing actually says Madara was letting himself to be hit because he was enjoying it. Because i saw clearly the opposite.


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## ARGUS (Mar 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Madara's actions and words didn't show he was playing around. The guy said he could not afford to get hit (word) and turtled up trying to protect himself fro Gai's attacks (actions), and was clearly worried about himself when hitting (Action).
> 
> Nothing actually says Madara was letting himself to be hit because he was enjoying it. Because i saw clearly the opposite.



This....
No one can deny guys sheer power in the 8th gate 
As it's literally pressuring the second six paths


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## Didi (Mar 20, 2014)

Shodai said:


> Can't u see how simple life is...forget titles, numbers, levels and look at how thing works
> Gai run at 300km/h, Akatsuki don't
> SIMULATION: Gai in akatsuki's base
> Akatsuki learder: "HOLLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT GREEN THING MOVING AT 300KM/H"
> ...


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2014)

Going suicidal and unlocking the _Shimon_ early enough _could_ end in all but Kakashi dying, resulting in the Masters technically winning. I don't see it as likely to be early enough, though, given what it took to provoke Gai to consider using it during the battle against Obito.

The Sannin's counters to _Kamui_ were already exclusively preemptive, and they always have been, so not much has changed on that front besides the fact that the threat level of Kakashi's _Kamui_ appears to have actually been somewhat _de_-hyped this chapter, with him not being able to target (at least human sized beings) very well at a fair distance. The Sannin have their best chances operating at a distance anyway, playing defensive pressure between line of sight blocking and misdirection tactics such as sprays of smoke bombs, _Rasengan_ variants and/or Tsunade strikes to the ground, Dotons, _Rashōmon_, _Kage Bunshin_, Katsuyu/even combined transformations with Katsuyu, etc.

Summons appearing overhead is still dangerous to the Masters. _Yomi Numa_ is also still problematic because although it's an element that Kakashi has a direct advantage over in the Five Great Changes in Nature it's vastly more expansive than any of his Raitons, meaning that there's only so much of it he should be able to negate, and whatever tiny scrap of land he manages to keep solidified/make solid again is likely to get pulled under by the suctional force the swamp beneath it is still exerting. So Gai will have to get him out of it with his gated strength, but that would give the Sannin an opportunity to launch another deadly assault in the meantime.

_Yamata no Orochi_ still presents a host of problems for the duo even though it can't provide as good a defense for Orochimaru's teammates as Katsuyu, because Gai's techniques still aren't powerful enough to bring down that thing and _Kamui_ is too small.

_Hirudora_ cannot kill Tsunade or Orochimaru seeing as it couldn't kill Kisame or even completely immobilize him, and _Asakujaku_ is an even weaker technique. If they don't obliterate the slug and snake Sannin before they can regenerate they won't kill them and won't cripple them, and these particular techniques focus more on rattling to cause grievous internal injury than crushing outright. Gai would be most liable to exhaust himself attempting to kill either of them, but there's a very distinct possibility that he would be immobilized by Orochimaru's true form neurotoxins before it even comes to that.

Gai's newly revealed _Sekizō_ on the other hand actually seems to focus on crushing the opponent outright, but it is still blunt force, and still doesn't achieve much against omnislug's supple body besides knocking it up and down the battlefield or potentially splitting it up (if he does it from multiple directions as he did with Madara in his second attempt, though I think that was provoked by him having a shield up in one direction, since Gai sent him into a giant crater in the ground on his first attempt, and Katsuyu is a shield in every direction). And I still think that there's there is still a very real still at chance at death by attack after neurotoxins.

The Prodigal Three have a much more intense lasting power as well; so the battle should still favor them prevailing, but as said above Kakashi may have a fair chance at being the last one standing if Gai enters the final gate early enough and leaves him to clean up whatever's left of the Sannin.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2014)

But Kakashi couldn't Kamui at a distance because he was going blind after so many Kamuis, Even though i don't see Gai going eight gates if the Sannins go to the defensive, Gai can very well carry Kakashi in the middle of them and let him snipe confortably.


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## Super Chief (Mar 20, 2014)

It's amazing how people just lose sight of what's what in post chapter hype. Gai and Kakashi would lose this pretty much every time.


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## Mercurial (Mar 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The Sannin's counters to _Kamui_ were already exclusively preemptive, and they always have been, so not much has changed on that front besides the fact that the threat level of Kakashi's _Kamui_ appears to have actually been somewhat _de_-hyped this chapter, with him not being able to target (at least human sized beings) very well at a fair distance. The Sannin have their best chances operating at a distance anyway, playing defensive pressure between line of sight blocking and misdirection tactics such as sprays of smoke bombs, _Rasengan_ variants and/or Tsunade strikes to the ground, Dotons, _Rashōmon_, _Kage Bunshin_, Katsuyu/even combined transformations with Katsuyu, etc.
> 
> Summons appearing overhead is still dangerous to the Masters.
> 
> _Hirudora_ cannot kill Tsunade or Orochimaru seeing as it couldn't kill Kisame or even completely immobilize him, and _Asakujaku_ is an even weaker technique.


Did you even read the last chapter? Kakashi said clearly that he couldn't Kamui objects so fast like Madara's spheres because he has drastically lost his sight. Once in range, he Kamui'd away a human sized portion of the Onmyodon sphere in a instant, as usual. And I don't think I have to list casual in-summoning Gedo Mazo arm warping feat, KCM Naruto's Rasengan warped in the same instant window of time that Obito used to make his arm intangible, Naruto's body warped in a millisecond right in front of a ninja who has reflexes on another tier compared to the Sannin etc.

Kakashi would slice and carve through them with speed, Sharingan precog and Raiton ninjutsu as Raikiri, Raikiri projectiles and Raiden. Gai would kick their shit away, his Gated kick make Gedo Mazo lost his balance and scream in pain, while the same Gedo could tank a hit in the chest from Cho Baika no jutsu + BM Choji without even flinching. The Masters contented with Gedo Mazo and V2/Full Form Bijuu, c'mon. Bunta and the others are screwed, even Gakido Path could dance around them. So Kakashi and Gai blitz. 

Gai fought only to take the scroll and to capture Kisame alive. He said Hiru Tora was a certain kill taijutsu far stronger than Asa Kujaku. Then when Kisame was alive he didn't show any sign of wonder, I think that it couldn't be more obvious that he wanted to take him alive. Also that Hiru Tora lost strength underwater. Hiru Tora from a worn out Gai could destroy Madara's 3? stage Susanoo, just think that to destroy Madara's 1? stage Susanoo it needed two clear hits from Tsunade and one from Onoki powered up Ei...


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2014)

Raikiri19, I'll respond to you once I get back from class if I can muster the willpower to.



LostSelf said:


> But Kakashi couldn't Kamui at a distance because he was going blind after so many Kamuis.



Yeah...I know this already?

The Mangekyō's eyesight doesn't come back unless the EMS is obtained by swapping eyes with somebody else, so Kakashi's still going to be "blind" in his left eye in this thread and from now on.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> It's amazing how people just lose sight of what's what in post chapter hype. Gai and Kakashi would lose this pretty much every time.




If you're talking about Gai entering the final gate, there is no "loosing sight." Gai has some of the most inane feats in this entire story, like smacking the mess out of Jubu Jinchuriki Madara, who was ludicrously stronger than Jubito. Jubito himself was speed blitzing any character than got close to him.

There is no normal character that can keep up - strength or speed - with Red Gai, period. Jubidara struggled and largely failed, and every single character in the Manga is massively slower than him, except Gai of course who is alot faster...

Gai can still lose, because he is highly reluctant to use the 8th Gate, but if his opponent doesn't kill him before he realizes he has no choice, his opponent will die a bad death.


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## Cyphon (Mar 20, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> It's amazing how people just lose sight of what's what in post chapter hype.



Purdy much. 

It is best to wait for the hype to die down and for people to gain perspective. There are just so many things people are overlooking here. They focus too much on one thing when there are maybe a hundred to consider.


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## Mercurial (Mar 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah...I know this already?
> 
> The Mangekyō's eyesight doesn't come back unless the EMS is obtained by swapping eyes with somebody else, so Kakashi's still going to be "blind" in his left eye in this thread and from now on.


So if let's see there is a thread with Tsunade and in the current manga she's cut in half and let dying, in that thread you will count Tsunade beginning the fight cut in half and in dying state?


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Raikiri19, I'll respond to you once I get back from class if I can muster the willpower to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think this needs to be stated. In threads of living Itachi, he is not considered blind, sick or healthy, unless we assume it is Itachi before the fight with Sasuke, but i think that people doesn't think about it when they make threads. They just throw a sick/healthy Itachi there and that's it. And i am not the OP, but i bet he doesn't mean to put Kakashi blind .

Don't fail me OP


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Actually, sick & blind Itachi is the default Itachi. OP usually specifies, but if nothing is given we assume sick.

This thread was made on Tuesday though, so I doubt Kakashi is supposed to be blind here.


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## Veracity (Mar 20, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Did you even read the last chapter? Kakashi said clearly that he couldn't Kamui objects so fast like Madara's spheres because he has drastically lost his sight. Once in range, he Kamui'd away a human sized portion of the Onmyodon sphere in a instant, as usual. And I don't think I have to list casual in-summoning Gedo Mazo arm warping feat, KCM Naruto's Rasengan warped in the same instant window of time that Obito used to make his arm intangible, Naruto's body warped in a millisecond right in front of a ninja who has reflexes on another tier compared to the Sannin etc.
> 
> Kakashi would slice and carve through them with speed, Sharingan precog and Raiton ninjutsu as Raikiri, Raikiri projectiles and Raiden. Gai would kick their shit away, his Gated kick make Gedo Mazo lost his balance and scream in pain, while the same Gedo could tank a hit in the chest from Cho Baika no jutsu + BM Choji without even flinching. The Masters contented with Gedo Mazo and V2/Full Form Bijuu, c'mon. Bunta and the others are screwed, even Gakido Path could dance around them. So Kakashi and Gai blitz.
> 
> Gai fought only to take the scroll and to capture Kisame alive. He said Hiru Tora was a certain kill taijutsu far stronger than Asa Kujaku. Then when Kisame was alive he didn't show any sign of wonder, I think that it couldn't be more obvious that he wanted to take him alive. Also that Hiru Tora lost strength underwater. Hiru Tora from a worn out Gai could destroy Madara's 3? stage Susanoo, just think that to destroy Madara's 1? stage Susanoo it needed two clear hits from Tsunade and one from Onoki powered up Ei...



Kakashi is not "slicing and carving " through any Sannin member nor is be blitzing anyone period.

Gedo Mazo was hit in his damn pinky toe as opposed to be being hit with a blunt attack in the chest. Even in a realistic sense the chest hit wouldn't even hurt that bad tbh. While even a simple resengan to the foot would hurt more. It's also to note that that's a feat for Choji regardless. We know damn well Tsunade packs more of a punch then Choji. Especially with the size difference.

I like how you always say they were contending with V2 Jin. As if it means anything really? They aren't that fast and don't have the feats to suggest a blitz upon anyone Kage level. No shunshin Naruto and BM Bee( reacted to by Suigestu in water form) reacted to the Jin just fine. Were just a bit overwhelmed by the numbers. But seriously lol they aren't quick and only have feats from fighting Kakashi Gai Naruto and Bee. That's like a brand new villain named tom belong blitzed by Kakashi in his appearance and then you labeling that as a speed feat for Kakashi.

If Gai was planning on keeping Kisame alive then why use his strongest technique off the bat ? And more so he planned on knocking him out( he actually did) so why did Kisame after being hit with a direct AT have the ability to move perfectly fine and showed no signs of injury ? Moreover how the hell would Gai alter the AT ? And if he can alter it, it still doesn't make sense on how the power difference could be so substantial.  It's also to note that Gai directly hit Kisame in the gut with a 7th gated punch and Kisame woke up with NO injuries what's so ever. He even managed to physically muscle himself out of a Mokuton restraint and summon sharks. So basically Gai with his strongest technique and a direct punch didn't injure Kisame( was severely injured by simple lariat) even a little bit. That's pretty fucking bland. Tsunade can create craters in the ground with her finger, and could obliterate Madara( tanked Sussano breaking Ay hit with no injury) with one punch. She's stronger then anything not named AT and EE. 

It's also to note that AT destroying Sussano is based purely on SPECULATION. It was never shown in panel lol. If Kishi wanted I show the power of AT , why not show it doing shit on panel ? Lol it's kinda obvious that he merely pushed Madara several meters off panel, unless somebody here wants to provide some on panel proof of AT doing anything impressive.

Also Ay's hit contributed nothing to Tsunade busting Sussano. That was her alone. The force of his hit didn't even travel close to the area Tsunade hit. Think of it like an egg shell. Cracking one side of the egg doesn't make the other weaker. It's also like if your friend punch someone in the back and you punch them in the rib a second later and shattered their ribcage. Your friend contributed nothing, especially considering Ay basically did no damage to the Sussano.


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## Super Chief (Mar 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If you're talking about Gai entering the final gate, there is no "loosing sight." Gai has some of the most inane feats in this entire story, like smacking the mess out of Jubu Jinchuriki Madara, who was ludicrously stronger than Jubito. Jubito himself was speed blitzing any character than got close to him.
> 
> There is no normal character that can keep up - strength or speed - with Red Gai, period. Jubidara struggled and largely failed, and every single character in the Manga is massively slower than him, except Gai of course who is alot faster...
> 
> Gai can still lose, because he is highly reluctant to use the 8th Gate, but if his opponent doesn't kill him before he realizes he has no choice, his opponent will die a bad death.



1. Madara was keeping track of Gai the entire time. Are you suggest Gai is faster than Minato, who Madara even countered and kicked aside like a nobody? There was no speed blitzing there. Without the help of Kakashi, Minato and Gaara - three Kage level shinobi, I might add - Gai arguably wouldn't have been able to land a hit on Madara.
2. Madara isn't even fighting back. He's revelling in his excitement in seeing a rare technique performed. It's your cliche overconfident, high on god-complex villain nonsense. 

What you and many like you are doing in the wake of post chapter hype is coming to absurd interpretations of misconstrued facts, and quite frankly it's nauseating. I've read all kinds of nonsense ranging from Gai > Hashirama and Gai > Madara to Gai > Sannin - get a grip. Please.

In this scenario, there is little chance of Gai and Kakashi win against the Sannin. Not if you ignore Sage Mode, Ma and Pa and their genjutsu, Katsuyu, other snake summons,  Strength of a Hundred, Swamp of the Underworld, Eight Branches, and what have you else. The Sannin combined have some of the most OP and varied jutsu in the entire Narutoverse and each is considered a titan on their own in their base form. Clearly you have lost sight of that.


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## LostSelf (Mar 21, 2014)

You just need to compare. Madara fodderized Sage Mode Minato like Ei would fodderize Konohamaru in a wrestling match, yet, Madara had to hide behind his shield to be safe from Gai.

Is Gai faster than Minato? Yes. Maybe not faster than Hiraishin, but it's surely much more pressuring. Madara wasn't fighting back because he was pressured and hiding, when he tried to fight back with his rod he was sent 50 meters below the ground.

Gai did what Hashirama, Minato and the others couldn't, and it is ragdolling Madara, so yeah, Gai is above them in the eight gate.

And the Sannins can have 1000 thousands of combination, but they are not toping the combination of a eight gated Gai carrying Kakashi to blindside the Sannin and Kamui their heads.


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> 1. Madara was keeping track of Gai the entire time. Are you suggest Gai is faster than Minato, who Madara even countered and kicked aside like a nobody? There was no speed blitzing there. Without the help of Kakashi, Minato and Gaara - three Kage level shinobi, I might add - Gai arguably wouldn't have been able to land a hit on Madara.




Gai was running circles around Madara. When Gai went to strike, Madara was capable of blocking the first one, but was simply too slow to guard against the next four. 

Gai is much faster than Minato under normal circumstances, but teleportation trumps all movement speed. Hiraishin is instantaneous, so if Minato has a kunai/mark in the right place, he's the fastest thing in the verse. For example, if Minato had Madara marked, he could just warp a Rasengan into Madara's back, leaving quite literally _no_ time to react. 8th Gate Gai moves his body much faster than Minato moves his though, that should be clear when comparing their performances against Madara.

Gai wouldn't have landed his final punch on Madara without his assistance because Madara went to hide from Gai. Gai had already landed five at that point though.....




> 2. Madara isn't even fighting back. He's revelling in his excitement in seeing a rare technique performed. It's your cliche overconfident, high on god-complex villain nonsense.




More like Gai isn't giving him a chance to fight back.



> What you and many like you are doing in the wake of post chapter hype is coming to absurd interpretations of misconstrued facts, and quite frankly it's nauseating. I've read all kinds of nonsense ranging from Gai > Hashirama and Gai > Madara to Gai > Sannin - get a grip. Please.




Well spoken, but incorrect. There's nothing wrong with buying into hype when it's backed by hard feats. Gai smacking the mess out of Jubi Jinchuriki Madara does indeed translate to Gai obliterating the Sannin, or Hashirama, simply because of the _multiple tier gap_ between Gai's punching bag & the Sannin....or Hashirama.

ABC (transitive) logic can be applied in instances where there are obscene "level" gaps. Even though Rikudo Sennin has no on-panel display of his power, it's assumed that because he defeated the Jubi, he'd murder someone like MS Sasuke without effort. Sakumo Hatake was said to be on par with the Sannin, so it's perfectly safe to say that he'd rip Asuma apart. There is nothing wrong with this logic. They're assumptions, but they're nearly obvious. 



> In this scenario, there is little chance of Gai and Kakashi win against the Sannin. Not if you ignore Sage Mode, Ma and Pa and their genjutsu, Katsuyu, other snake summons,  Strength of a Hundred, Swamp of the Underworld, Eight Branches, and what have you else. The Sannin combined have some of the most OP and varied jutsu in the entire Narutoverse and each is considered a titan on their own in their base form. Clearly you have lost sight of that.




Oh no, please no more Sannin overestimation. I stopped considering the Sannin "titans" when Itachi soloed Orochimaru (in his most powerful form) moments away from succumbing to a fatal illness. I stopped considering them "titans" when Jiraiya got gang banged by The Six Paths of Pain _in_ the Hidden Rain. And let's not forget about old Tsunade. That "titan" was fucking _massacred_ along with four of her Kage-level piers by Edo Madara, someone I _still_ wouldn't consider a titan of the verse.

The Sannin are very powerful individually, and even more so as a team, but they don't hold a candle to the true top dogs, like the Jubi Jin pair, or even a few steps down, like Hashirama & Madara. Gai has pushed Jubidara further than the collective efforts of the five Kage pushed the vastly vastly *vastly *inferior Edo Madara. The Sannin have diverse Jutsu indeed, but so does the Shinobi Alliance, and they failed miserably at combating the _raw power_ of the Jubi. They had to wait for the four Edo Hokage to come and save the day, because they were the only ones capable of overpowering the Jubi & subduing it. Power almost always trumps versatility That's why the "Shinobi Alliance no Jutsu" – even though it was a fluid combination attack _taking advantage of the diverse abilities of the entire shinobi world_ – failed twice against the Ten Tails, despite the fact that its a mindless beast that relies solely on its power.


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

FlamingRain....

NO


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Did you even read the last chapter? Kakashi said clearly that he couldn't Kamui objects so fast like Madara's spheres because he has drastically lost his sight.



Did you read the chapter _or_ my post?

The speed of the objects had no bearing on Kakashi's statement. It was already established that he could track the objects just fine.

The only issue was that he needed to get much closer in order to accurately target them with _Kamui_. When I brought that issue up, I also implied that this might not apply to objects significantly larger than humans because they're obviously going to be easier to see.



> *Once in range*, he Kamui'd away a human sized portion of the Onmyodon sphere in a instant, as usual.



Your first three words make this sentence completely irrelevant to anything in my post.



> And I don't think I have to list casual in-summoning Gedo Mazo arm warping feat,



That summoning feat wasn't even particularly impressive considering that the summoning was delayed by the fact that Gedō Mazō had to first emerge from Obito and yet still had time to move out of the way. It isn't like the arm is what Kakashi was aiming for; he was aiming for its head, and missed by like 200 feet.

So maybe you want me to back even further off of my previous comment and just flat out claim that Kakashi can't see worth crap regardless of how big his opponent is?



> KCM Naruto's Rasengan warped in the same instant window of time that Obito used to make his arm intangible, Naruto's body warped in a millisecond right in front of a ninja who has reflexes on another tier compared to the Sannin etc.



Both feats were accomplished when Kakashi had used _Kamui_ much less and his eyesight wasn't diminished as greatly as it is currently. So I don't see what it was in my post that would provoke you to reiterate that.



> Kakashi would slice and carve through them with speed, Sharingan precog and Raiton ninjutsu as Raikiri, Raikiri projectiles and Raiden.



...And?

There's still the underlying issue that none of that is going to save him from the weight of the summon crashing down from above...



> Gai would kick their shit away, his Gated kick make Gedo Mazo lost his balance and scream in pain, while the same Gedo could tank a hit in the chest from Cho Baika no jutsu + BM Choji without even flinching.



Gai's gated kick made Gedō Mazō lose its balance only because it was the equivalent of it stubbing its toe on something, which isn't as impressive as it nearly being knocked down by a blow to the chest (idk where you're getting this "without flinching" thing from). That isn't a big enough deal to justify Gai just kicking the summons away, and it doesn't seem very likely to me that he can.



> The Masters contented with Gedo Mazo and V2/Full Form Bijuu, c'mon. Bunta and the others are screwed, even Gakido Path could dance around them.



And not a single one of those actions relate to a summon appearing _on top of_ the Masters.



> Gai fought only to take the scroll and to capture Kisame alive. He said Hiru Tora was a certain kill taijutsu far stronger than Asa Kujaku.



It's a "certain kill" against most opponents, but not necessarily especially tough ones (like Kisame).

How about you prove that taking Kisame alive mandated that Gai hold back _Hirudora's_ power, as opposed to Gai simply guesstimating that even it wouldn't kill Kisame and not caring very much if it did considering that Kisame's capture while alive was not an absolute necessity.

Taka was going to take Bee alive, and that time it _was_ an absolute necessity, but they still went at him with the intent to kill in their attempt to do such. I'd think that if anything Gai using a supposed "certain kill" while also apparently aiming to capture Kisame simply means he adopted the same mentality as Taka did, as opposed to holding back.



> Also that Hiru Tora lost strength underwater.



This is blatantly false. Water actually has the opposite effect on air pressure, meaning that if anything Kisame would have been hit with a strengthened _Hirudora_.



> Hiru Tora from a worn out Gai could destroy Madara's 3 stage Susanoo, just think that to destroy Madara's 1 stage Susanoo it needed two clear hits from Tsunade and one from Onoki powered up Ei...



There is no legitimate reason to believe that Gai could destroy Madara's _Susano'o_, especially within its higher levels, with _Hirudora_.

It's method of damage delivery might've shaken Madara up within it, however.



Raikiri19 said:


> So if let's see there is a thread with Tsunade and in the current manga she's cut in half and let dying, in that thread you will count Tsunade beginning the fight cut in half and in dying state?



No, because that would just be an example of a conventional injury. It's not something that would apply were current Tsunade to start a match fresh (which she would be by default); on the other hand, Kakashi can start any match fresh from this point onwards but still suffer from virtual blindness in his left eye because that's something irreversible and permanent sans the procuring of another and completely foreign Mangekyō. It's the same thing as defaulting to sick Itachi, immobile Nagato, old Hiruzen, rusty Hanzō, Gaara without Shukaku inside of him, etc, because those were their concurrent peaks.



LostSelf said:


> I think this needs to be stated. In threads of living Itachi, he is not considered blind, sick or healthy, unless we assume it is Itachi before the fight with Sasuke.



Why _wouldn't_ one assume that it was Itachi before the fight with Sasuke? The only Itachi afterwards is the dead one.

Also what Rocky said:



Rocky said:


> Actually, sick & blind Itachi is the default Itachi. OP usually specifies, but if nothing is given we assume sick.




Except for the following:



> I stopped considering the Sannin "titans" when Itachi soloed Orochimaru (in his most powerful form) moments away from succumbing to a fatal illness.



Itachi only solo'd Orochimaru's strongest technique using his own strongest technique against it, with Orochimaru not having knowledge on it and being unconcerned with getting struck by it- even boasting when he could have been barfing up a free body before the sealing Jutsu's effects took place.

Clashes of ultimate techniques tend to end quickly even between fighters that aren't that far off from each other anyway. Whichever one loses out in those clashes is usually finished; that's just how it happens.



> I stopped considering them "titans" when Jiraiya got gang banged by the Six Paths of Pain in the Hidden Rain.



Jiraiya, the Ninjutsu specialist with only one arm and the keys to his sound-based techniques sore in their throats for the time being, managed to contend with the six paths for some time and even take one down again before finally falling, only to have his opponent acknowledge that he would have been the victor had he been informed that there were three remaining paths beforehand.



> That "titan" was massacred along with four of her Kage-level peers by Edo Madara.



They nearly beat him twice. Granted he apparently wasn't yet going full throttle it still happened.

But more to the point- Tsunade was explicitly established as the Kage that Madara was out to kill first, and yet still wound up being the Kage that saved all the others following his rampage.

Pretty beast to betray such expectations except mine as they come relative to other the other Kages like that.


If the Sannin were ever titans in the first place in your eyes they should still be titans now. Sure, there are people who are even stronger than they are, but we already knew that people like that existed and would exist from the beginning, so it doesn't serve to truly discredit anything so much as it just reflects more positively on those others in question.

But if you don't consider even Edo Madara a titan then idk what to tell you since I can only think of 3 or 4 people who could beat him (those being the Ten Tails hosts, strongest Hokage, and future-strongest Hokage) and that makes me think that you didn't "stop" thinking they were titans so much as you never thought they were in the first place.

And in that case you can just forget everything I said.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> FlamingRain....
> 
> NO





I'm sorry I didn't notice until I hit "submit reply".


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Itachi only solo'd Orochimaru's strongest technique using his own strongest technique against it, with Orochimaru not having knowledge on it and being unconcerned with getting struck by it- even boasting when he could have been barfing up a free body before the sealing Jutsu's effects took place.
> 
> Clashes of ultimate techniques tend to end quickly even between fighters that aren't that far off from each other anyway. Whichever one loses out in those clashes is usually finished; that's just how it happens.




Regardless, Itachi still dealt with Orochimaru's strongest ability in an absolutely pathetic condition. Itachi had also borderline stomped Oro before that, when they were both younger.

My point overall is that Itachi, who isn't one of the big baddies, is quite clearly superior to Orochimaru. That has been smashed in our faces. 



> Jiraiya, the Ninjutsu specialist with only one arm and the keys to his sound-based techniques sore in their throats for the time being, managed to contend with the six paths for some time and even take one down again before finally falling, only to have his opponent acknowledge that he would have been the victor had he been informed that there were three remaining paths beforehand.




True, but Pain survived the battle with only one disabled path while Jiraiya was quite dead. Knowledge would've helped Jiraiya win_ that _battle, but in _that _battle, Pain also had limited knowledge, and most likely did not want to blow his village to bits. Had the knowledge been fair (even if it's full) from the start, and the location changed, I still favor Pain to win. Quite decisively. 



> They nearly beat him twice. Granted he apparently wasn't yet going full throttle it still happened.
> 
> But more to the point- Tsunade was explicitly established as the Kage that Madara was out to kill first, and yet still wound up being the Kage that saved all the others following his rampage.
> 
> Pretty beast to betray such expectations except mine as they come relative to other the other Kages like that.




Madara was in control the entire time. They never had him on the ropes; we knew once Perfect Susano'o was revealed. He fooled around that entire fight. Letting clones battle while he sat there with his arms crossed, allowing his arm to be vaporized to mess with their heads, etc. Most of the time, his offensive actions brought them to their knees. 

Tsunade saving her peers does change the outcome of the actual battle, which ended with all of the Kage out cold, bleeding from their heads, and Tsunade in half. I would call that a slaughter. You may be correct in your point, but it doesn't invalidate mine.



> If the Sannin were ever titans in the first place in your eyes they should still be titans now. Sure, there are people who are even stronger than they are, but we already knew that people like that existed and would exist from the beginning, so it doesn't serve to truly discredit anything so much as it just reflects more positively on those others in question.




As I though, the problem is out respective definition of "titan." 

I would only use that term to describe the current on-panel epitome of power in the Manga. Back in Part 1, they were the strongest characters around, or at least in that tier. Naturally, as the manga power creeps, whom is considered a "titan" in my eyes varies. 

"Titan" is basically equal to "God," in terms of praise at least. I would not say that The Sannin are our current gods of the Manga. In Part 1, it was definitely arguable that they were. Hell, Hiruzen was being hyped above all other Kage, and Orochimaru walked right into the leaf and killed him, asfter killing the Kazekage. 



> But if you don't consider even Edo Madara a titan then idk what to tell you since I can only think of 3 or 4 people who could beat him (those being the Ten Tails hosts, strongest Hokage, and future-strongest Hokage) and that makes me think that you didn't "stop" thinking they were titans so much as you never thought they were in the first place..




Jubi Jinchuriki Madara & Obito are so much more powerful than Edo Madara though. They are the titans, the top dogs, the big boys, etc. Since Edo Madara is no where near their general level, I would not place him as a God, no. He was, before Jubito/Jubidara were introduced. 



*as a side note, I am not including Rikudo Sennin in my assessment here. Since the character is basically just a legend, he's normally ignored/taken for granted.


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## The Undying (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Oh no, please no more Sannin overestimation. I stopped considering the Sannin "titans" when Itachi soloed Orochimaru (in his most powerful form) moments away from succumbing to a fatal illness. I stopped considering them "titans" when Jiraiya got gang banged by The Six Paths of Pain _in_ the Hidden Rain. And let's not forget about old Tsunade. That "titan" was fucking _massacred_ along with four of her Kage-level piers by Edo Madara, someone I _still_ wouldn't consider a titan of the verse.
> 
> The Sannin are very powerful individually, and even more so as a team, but they don't hold a candle to the true top dogs, like the Jubi Jin pair, or even a few steps down, like Hashirama & Madara. Gai has pushed Jubidara further than the collective efforts of the five Kage pushed the vastly vastly *vastly *inferior Edo Madara. The Sannin have diverse Jutsu indeed, but so does the Shinobi Alliance, and they failed miserably at combating the _raw power_ of the Jubi. They had to wait for the four Edo Hokage to come and save the day, because they were the only ones capable of overpowering the Jubi & subduing it. Power almost always trumps versatility That's why the "Shinobi Alliance no Jutsu" ? even though it was a fluid combination attack _taking advantage of the diverse abilities of the entire shinobi world_ ? failed twice against the Ten Tails, despite the fact that its a mindless beast that relies solely on its power.




Although I think that Itachi "soloing" Orochimaru was more circumstantial than some might think, I agree that the Sannin are nowhere near the level of Madara, Hashirama, or the Juubi Jins. Actually, I think a lot of posters here tend to either _overestimate_ the Sannin or _underestimate_ them considerably.

However, I think we're giving the "shinobi alliance no jutsu" too little credit. The versatility of the alliance has unequivocally proven to be effective on a few occasions; it forced the Juubi to transform into its next stage in order to combat the first assault, negated some of the Juubi's attacks, destroyed the Juubi's cage, and forced Madara and Obito to try to control the Bijuu and even use their own ranged attacks. This is not to contend the alliance's combined forces actually overpowered the Juubi, and you're right that Minato needed to save them from a gigantic Bijuudama, but the Juubi itself was definitely stalemated for quite some time. Admittedly Naruto's power played a part in this but I really doubt it was ever Kishi's intention to detract from the contributions of the rest of the alliance. Everyone played an important role in that fight; their abilities were clearly useful enough to keep everyone alive until the big dogs arrived. The problem is that they never had just enough manpower to tip the scales in their favor.

So for me, it's more accurate to hold power and versatility in equal regard. Quantity can trump quality if it's great enough and vice-versa.


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## iJutsu (Mar 22, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> 2. Madara isn't even fighting back. He's revelling in his excitement in seeing a rare technique performed. It's your cliche overconfident, high on god-complex villain nonsense.



Since when did "I can't move" mean "I'm not gonna fight back"?


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

The Undying said:


> However, I think we're giving the "shinobi alliance no jutsu" too little credit. The versatility of the alliance has unequivocally proven to be effective on a few occasions; it forced the Juubi to transform into its next stage in order to combat the first assault, negated some of the Juubi's attacks, destroyed the Juubi's cage, and forced Madara and Obito to try to control the Bijuu and even use their own ranged attacks. This is not to contend the alliance's combined forces actually overpowered the Juubi, and you're right that Minato needed to save them from a gigantic Bijuudama, but the Juubi itself was definitely stalemated for quite some time. Admittedly Naruto's power played a part in this but I really doubt it was ever Kishi's intention to detract from the contributions of the rest of the alliance. Everyone played an important role in that fight; their abilities were clearly useful enough to keep everyone alive until the big dogs arrived. The problem is that they never had just enough manpower to tip the scales in their favor.




It was successful against the Jubi it its first stage, but as you said yourself, the transformation to the second stage completely overpowered the combo. When I speak of the Jubi, I don't just take its first form into account. By "negated some of its attacks," I assume you mean the alliance's effectiveness in stopping the Tenpen Chi? That was all Naruto's cloak, and had nothing to do with versatility. Other than that, I'm not sure which attack was "negated." Nearly all of the Jubi's other offensive assaults took many casualties. 

I know you tried to defend the alliance regarding this, but honestly, Nauruto was responsible for nearly everything they did. Without him drastically increasing their _power_, that Mokuton spike storm would've continued mowing them down, the Tenpen Chi would've incinerated them, and even Madara & Obito's own assaults would've been a massive problem. Actually, the alliance would have never separated them from the Jubi, as that was completely the result of Nartuto's Chakra cloaks forming a giant bird, which cut through one its tails with the power of Rasenshuriken. 

They spent that entire fight being saved by Naruto. That's why he was so fucked up by the time Minato actually arrived (and dealt with the Jubi's Bijuudama better than the entire alliance did). That just supports my argument, as Naruto's cloaks manipulate the power of the alliance. Versatility is only effective in the face of massive power if you have significant power yourself to back it up. Otherwise, it's Perfect Susano'o vs. the Five Kage all over again.




> So for me, it's more accurate to hold power and versatility in equal regard. Quantity can trump quality if it's great enough and vice-versa.




Isn't the phrase "quality over quantity?" Maybe you need to talk with your English professors again. 

Versatility can beat out power only is the power advantage isn't too large. Kurama nearly blew up the Leaf, despite their vastly differing abilities, twice. Had it not been for Minato's equally powerful manipulation of Space & Time (plus his Fuinjutsu), wild Kyuubi with two moves (Chakra scream & Bijuudama) can beat an entire village of Shinobi with different strengths & weaknesses, including their retired Kage to boot.

So, when I see that 8th Gate Gai's raw speed & power absolutely shits on the Sannin (based on it's effectiveness against the most powerful man to exist sans Rikudo), I'm going to say that he wins the fight regardless of their versatile move-pool. I simply don't think they can deal with how strong his elephant fist is when it travels at speeds they _literally_ cannot process. And no, I do not think Tsunade or Orochimaru can _tank_ punches that had Jubi Jin Madara throwing up blood. That just _sounds_ stupid.


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## The Undying (Mar 22, 2014)

@Rocky: By "versatile", I just mean the variability of the alliance's unique skills. For example, it was a combination of effective planning and everyone's techniques that allowed them to blind the Juubi's first form, sink it into a narrow pit and then trap it within a giant concrete prison. Likewise, the Nara clan was involved in slowing down the Juubi's second form long enough for everyone else to throw relentless attacks at it, and through Minato's Hiraishin and Kakashi's Kamui (also Gaara's and Lee's abilities, though they played less of a role) was 8th Gate Gai able to avoid Juubi Madara's attacks and have a clean opening. These examples emphasize versatility, because they illustrate the many uses and capabilities of the alliance's team efforts against the antagonists.

That's where I was trying to go with this whole "quantity vs. quality" thing, although I'll admit that maybe it wasn't the best analogy. I think you're right that power is of absolute importance when battling someone of the Juubi's caliber, especially considering that Naruto had to power up the alliance's attacks just to make a difference... but even at this stage, it seems that versatility has a pretty important role to play. At the very least, Kishi still incorporates it on some level so the fights don't come down to two obnoxious-ass Saiyans constantly trying to overpower each other.

But no, in no universe do I see the Sannin tanking Gai's Night Elephant. Just making a general observation.


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## Santoryu (Mar 22, 2014)

Seeing as how the masters are able to contend with the top dogs in the series, this thread is an extreme mismatch. If the boss summons come in play, they'll pose no threat to the masters; these guys contend with version 2 Jins without even resorting to their full power, the likes of Katsuyu and Gamabunta are a complete joke compared to thT; not only are they extremely slow compared to someone like gated Gai, they can be easily manipulated by Kakashi's Sharingan. 

Masters low-difficulty.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 22, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Seeing as how the masters are able to contend with the top dogs in the series



And the Sannin aren't? Jiraiya was able to compete with Pein for a while, Tsunade held her own against Madara, and Orochimaru toyed with KN4 Naruto and nearly killed Sasuke on his death-bed. If we're going off battle performances, the Sannin's accomplishments are nothing to be sneered at.



> If the boss summons come in play, they'll pose no threat to the masters; these guys contend with version 2 Jins without even resorting to their full power, the likes of Katsuyu and Gamabunta are a complete joke compared to thT;



Those edo jinchuuriki  were not individually as strong as the Sannin's summons, though. For a start the boss summons are all enormous, even if their attacks aren't that fast they make up for that in size. Furthermore, there were only 6 jinchuuriki, the Sannin can potentially litter the field in huge summons. With Katsuyu's ability to divide she can multiply the threat significantly too. 



> not only are they extremely slow compared to someone like gated Gai, they can be easily manipulated by Kakashi's Sharingan.



I'm going to assume that taking control of a boss summon with a regular-level genjutsu consumes a fair amount of chakra to begin with. However, its only going to be all the more chakra-taxing continually having to re-use said genjutsu because the Sannin keep effortlessly breaking their summons from Kakashi's control. I'm not sure if Kakashi is even capable of doing this in the first place.

Also, does it really matter that they're slower than Gated Gai? Manda can launch ambush attacks from the ground, churning up rubble and pushing his opponents into the air. Katsuyu's divisions can attack from every angle and provide ideal distractions. They can also attach themselves to Jiraiya and Orochimaru and pump chakra into them to increase the scale of their ninjutsu. Gamabunta's katon has a gigantic range. 

The summons have their uses.​​


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## Santoryu (Mar 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And the Sannin aren't?​




As evidenced by the manga.



> Jiraiya was able to compete with Pein for a while,



He didn't even confront Deva (the strongest body directly) but yes, what he achieved was impressive, but are you seriously implying his feats are anywhere near comparable to what has happened recently?

I'm not meaning to be rude, but I'll break it down for you

Pain is a child compared to Madara.

Pain is not even an ant compared to Sage Madara.





> Tsunade held her own against Madara,


Tsunade with the aid of four other Kage, did okay against a *much, much, much, much **weaker* version of Madara compared to his current self. And even then, the fight did not excite him like this one.




> and Orochimaru toyed with KN4 Naruto and nearly killed Sasuke on his death-bed.



This was a much weaker Sasuke, KN4 back then was not as impressive as the Sharinnga-Rinnegan eqquiped V2 Jins seeing as how they completely dominated KCM Naruto and  Bee prior to the masters arriving.





> If we're going off battle performances, the Sannin's accomplishments are nothing to be sneered at.



In comparison to what has happened in the last few chapters? Their accomplishments shouldn't even be mentioned.




> Those edo jinchuuriki  were not individually as strong as the Sannin's summons, though.





I'll reply to the rest of your post later.​


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

The Edo Jinchuriki were massively stronger than your standard Boss summon, sans Godslug. But even Godslug would fall to a Bijuu.


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## Jad (Mar 22, 2014)

The thing is, the Sannins have been up against opponents in one session.

Kakashi and Gai, they have been in back-to-back fights with opponents at the upper levels. Version 2 Jinchurriki's and also the Six-Tails full form, Gedomazou and Obito, Madara and Obito. Let those names sink in, and remember they were back-to-back fights.​


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Regardless, Itachi still dealt with Orochimaru's strongest ability in an absolutely pathetic condition. Itachi had also borderline stomped Oro before that, when they were both younger.
> 
> My point overall is that Itachi, who isn't one of the big baddies, is quite clearly superior to Orochimaru. That has been smashed in our faces.



Not much would change were Itachi controlled for his physical condition since he would still need a fully manifested _Susano'o_ with the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ to put him down for good, and we don't know the full details of the battle that served as the causation for Orochimaru leaving Akatsuki.

I'd readily admit that Itachi is superior, but I don't think he's _that_ much stronger than Orochimaru.



> True, but Pain survived the battle with only one disabled path while Jiraiya was quite dead. Knowledge would've helped Jiraiya win_ that _battle, but in _that _battle, Pain also had limited knowledge, and most likely did not want to blow his village to bits. Had the knowledge been fair (even if it's full) from the start, and the location changed, I still favor Pain to win. Quite decisively.



It was pointed out that Nagato had a grasp on the type of fighter Jiraiya was because of his familiarity with him as his former student, while Jiraiya knew practically nothing about Pein. That's most likely why he chose to summon the paths that he did initially- as he knew they could counter Jiraiya's techniques, and though Pein didn't expect Jiraiya to resort to Genjutsu he discerned what it was before it took its full effect, so if anything, Nagato actually had the knowledge _advantage_ in the manga. I don't believe Jiraiya having known of the additional paths would have necessarily made the knowledge "unfair".

And the blow-village-to-bits Jutsus require Nagato to shut down all but one path first, and in some instances bring it closer to where he is even after that (depending on how far away he is from the battlefield). Sage Jiraiya eclipses the paths in direct movement speed _and_ has a variety of far reaching area-of-effect style attacks, so I'm not sure opting for those techniques would be very smart regardless of his care for the village because they may just get interrupted and then he's out another path.

Certain locations could admittedly make biding for Sage Mode and/or using hit-and-run tactics harder, but your last post specifically highlighted Amegakure...



> Madara was in control the entire time. They never had him on the ropes; we knew once Perfect Susano'o was revealed. He fooled around that entire fight. Letting clones battle while he sat there with his arms crossed, allowing his arm to be vaporized to mess with their heads, etc. Most of the time, his offensive actions brought them to their knees.



I already acknowledged that he fooled around, but in-character tendencies affect possibilities, and Madara's in-character tendencies are what lead him to more close calls than he had to go through had he simply been the more serious type and used his stronger techniques more hastily.

It's for that reason that having a final trump card isn't the same thing as having _never_ been on the ropes. Simply having a win card doesn't mean one is immune to something unexpected taking place and costing them before they get around to using it. Such is exemplified in an almost eerily similar case earlier within the manga- Orochimaru was far too powerful for the Third Hokage, but then decided to play with Hiruzen and despite having been in control for the majority of the fight and even considering it boring he wound up losing control when he took too long to finish it up.

That's what happened with the Five Kage twice, and Madara revealed _Perfect Susano'o_ in order to regain lost control after the Five Kage brought out their fullest collaborative power.



> You may be correct in your point, but it doesn't invalidate mine.



It wasn't a contention with whether or not Madara's rampage was a massacre/slaughter/etc. or not; it was made for yet another comparison between one of the Sannin and a few of the Kages.



> As I though, the problem is out respective definition of "titan."
> 
> "Titan" is basically equal to "god," in terms of praise at least. I would not say that The Sannin are our current gods of the Manga. In Part 1, it was definitely arguable that they were. Hell, Hiruzen was being hyped above all other Kage, and Orochimaru walked right into the leaf and killed him, asfter killing the Kazekage.



I realize that, but then we have testimonials from Kishi such as:

_*"Their god-like skills shake the heavens. Their glory shall spread to the ends of the earth; all shall fear them, all shall praise them, spreading tales of the Konoha three."​*_
Itachi's somewhat stronger than they are, yeah, _but_ then you have statements attesting to _Susano'o_ being "the power of a rampaging god"; Minato's in a similar boat, _but_ his main skill is "flying thunder god".

Someone like Nagato is far stronger than them, _but_ he called himself a "god" through Pein and the rest of Amegakure's forces that knew of him referred to him as such.

Gaara called Madara's casual meteor an example of "divine power", Hashirama was praised as the "god of shinobi", and the final gate exceeds the Hokage in power, so by transitive extension such applies to it as well.

It may be that the title has simply been removed completely, but even with recent developments it's possible that prime Hiruzen (the only one that could stand against a Sannin) simply inherited that "god of shinobi" title from Hashirama after he passed on.

You can probably see where I'm going with this by now; to me it seems as if Kishi just has a rather broad view of what can fit into that classification. Some can eclipse others by various margins, so I'd really call just about anyone that's above most Kages in my estimates a "titan".



> Jubi Jinchuriki Madara & Obito are so much more powerful than Edo Madara though. They are the titans, the top dogs, the big boys, etc. Since Edo Madara is no where near their general level, I would not place him as a God, no. He was, before Jubito/Jubidara were introduced.



Imo that would just make the Ten Tails hosts stronger titans as opposed to stripping Edo Madara of his position as one altogether, because where he stands in relation to the remainder of the verse hasn't really changed.


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## LostSelf (Mar 22, 2014)

Guys, guys. Kakashi and Gai does a better combination than Ei and Oonoki. Gai provides the superior speed and Kakashi the one shotting Kamui as a backpack.

As long as Kakashi can keep up and aim with the speed .


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I'd readily admit that Itachi is superior, but I don't think he's _that_ much stronger than Orochimaru.




I can agree to this. In the _grand_ scheme of things, Itachi he really isn't. I just wanted to be _clear_ that the gap was there.



FlamingRain said:


> It was pointed out that Nagato had a grasp on the type of fighter Jiraiya was because of his familiarity with him as his former student, while Jiraiya knew practically nothing about Pein. That's most likely why he chose to summon the paths that he did initially- as he knew they could counter Jiraiya's techniques, and though Pein didn't expect Jiraiya to resort to Genjutsu he discerned what it was before it took its full effect, so if anything, Nagato actually had the knowledge _advantage_ in the manga. I don't believe Jiraiya having known of the additional paths would have necessarily made the knowledge "unfair".




Nagato did have the knowledge advantage in the Manga. That's why he borderline stomped Jiraiya with serious damage to only one path.

I don't think Nagato knew about Sage Mode, which was turned out to be incredibly problematic for him. We saw what happened when Pain faced Gama Rinsho a second time; it didn't work. That alone is the only thing that would grant Jiraiya a win against Pain.

Giving Jiraiya knowledge on the secret of the Paths but keeping their knowledge on Gama Rinsho at zero would indeed give the fight to Jiraiya. I simply don't think he'd win under completely fair conditions. Or even come close. Not even Naruto, the superior Sage imo, could win with the conditions massively stacked in his favor. He needed his hidden Kyubi powers.



FlamingRain said:


> And the blow-village-to-bits Jutsus require Nagato to shut down all but one path first, and in some instances bring it closer to where he is even after that (depending on how far away he is from the battlefield). Sage Jiraiya eclipses the paths in direct movement speed _and_ has a variety of far reaching area-of-effect style attacks, so I'm not sure opting for those techniques would be very smart regardless of his care for the village because they may just get interrupted and then he's out another path.
> 
> Certain locations could admittedly make biding for Sage Mode and/or using hit-and-run tactics harder, but your last post specifically highlighted Amegakure...






You know what I'm going to say. Tendo was capable of pulling off Chibaku Tensei on Rokubi Naruto, a beast easily comparable to (or even superior to) Sage Jiraiya in terms of raw speed & strength. Furthermore, KN6 has ranged techniques, like Bijuudama, or even those intense shockwaves it can generate by swinging its arm. 

Jiraiya is smarter than wild Naruto, granted, but using Chibaku Tensei isn't particularly difficult as long as Tendo is somewhat close to Nagato. At that point, it would depend entirely on the location.



FlamingRain said:


> That's what happened with the Five Kage twice, and Madara revealed _Perfect Susano'o_ in order to regain lost control after the Five Kage brought out their fullest collaborative power.





Good example with the Orochimaru thing. I can agree with this, you win this point. 



FlamingRain said:


> I realize that, but then we have testimonials from Kishi such as: [Multiple examples]
> 
> You can probably see where I'm going with this by now; to me it seems as if Kishi just has a rather broad view of what can fit into that classification. Some can eclipse others by various margins, so I'd really call just about anyone that's above most Kages in my estimates a "titan".




Okay, I see. The issue was that my classification of "titan" or "god" simply differed from Kishimoto's own, and that is true. I will admit that, so what you're arguing is correct. In my response to "Super Chief," do note that I was more or less paying no mind to how Kishimoto would use the word though. It was more my opinion of who would fit into that "god tier."



FlamingRain said:


> Imo that would just make the Ten Tails hosts stronger titans as opposed to stripping Edo Madara of his position as one altogether, because where he stands in relation to the remainder of the verse hasn't really changed.




I'll just let you know how I was picturing everything:

Think of a tier list. I would refer to the characters at the tip top of that list as the "titans" of the Manga. Now, back in Part 1, people like Orochimaru or Yondaime Hokage would've been basically at that top spot, as there weren't many, if any, characters revealed that were more powerful than them. As the Manga goes on and new, more powerful characters are introduced, your previous "top tiers" move down to make room. Otherwise, nearly everybody would be a top tier.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 23, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> He didn't even confront Deva (the strongest body directly) but yes, what he achieved was impressive, but are you seriously implying his feats are anywhere near comparable to what has happened recently?



What exactly has happened, recently? Gai using a suicidal technique to try and kill Madara, with the aid of Minato, Gaara and Kakashi? And even then he didn't put him down? What Gai did is impressive, but I don't see how it puts him ' on another level ' to the Sannin. In a straight 1v1 Eight Gated Gai would kill any one of the Sannin, but then he dies shortly afterwards, so it doesn't actually make him stronger than them. 




> Tsunade with the aid of four other Kage, did okay against a *much, much, much, much **weaker* version of Madara compared to his current self. And even then, the fight did not excite him like this one.



Frankly, why does it matter? If the Madara Gai had fought had actually tried and used even 10% of his movepool I might agree, but he literally did nothing but evade Gai's attacks and fire Yin/Yang balls at him, and even then those attacks were nullified by Minato, Kakashi and Gaara. He ignored the MS, mokuton techniques, the rinnegan, katon and bijuu-dama, which are what actually make Madara's offense so unstoppable. 

So sure, the Madara Tsunade fought against was much slower than Madara Gai faced against, but his offensive power was far more significant.




> This was a much weaker Sasuke, KN4 back then was not as impressive as the Sharinnga-Rinnegan eqquiped V2 Jins seeing as how they completely dominated KCM Naruto and  Bee prior to the masters arriving.



Even so, Orochimaru was literally on his death-bed, the only thing he could use was his true-form white snake. Doing so well against that Sasuke should speak volumes for what he is capable of when healthy. Also, KN4 was definitely as impressive as those V2 Jins. The six jinchuuriki aren't really as great as you portray them to be, Naruto was capable of _parrying_ their blows, and it wasn't until Yugiito and Yagura attacked consecutively that they were actually able to land _a hit_. Even then, it wasn't a _critical_ hit. I should add, the only reason the six-tails was capable of doing anything to Killer Bee was because he had no existing knowledge of it's abilities. If he'd known that Utakata could produce alkaline acid from his pores then he probably wouldn't have grabbed him like he did. 




Rocky said:


> The Edo Jinchuriki were massively stronger than your standard Boss summon, sans Godslug. But even Godslug would fall to a Bijuu.



I agree, but we aren't even talking about the Bijuu forms, we're talking solely about the tailed-transformations.​​


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