# Yata Mirror vs Truth Seeker Ball -  comparison



## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

*This is a comparison between Yata Mirror and Truth Seeker Ball
*​*
*
*Yata Mirror*




The Yata Mirror was an ethereal shield wielded by the left arm of 's . It is said to be endowed with all  and able to change its characteristics to any nature transformation to completely negate any attack, whether it be *spiritual*, or *physical*.






*Truth-Seeking Balls* are spheres composed of all five  (Just like Yata Mirror) and , and are capable of negating all forms of ninjutsu.



*Analysis - *

Yata Mirror was stated to be able to negate any attack whether it is* spiritual *or *physical*. Spiritual & Physical are essentially Ying-Yang. Yin relates to one's spiritual energy and Yang relates to one's physical energy, and it's necessary to utilise both of these in order to mould  for ninjutsu. As such, the basis of simply kneading chakra and using techniques is based in Yin-Yang Release.

To further add to this, it's endowed with all five nature transformations, just like the Truth Seeker Ball. Since Yata Mirror was *stated *to be an ethereal item without any shape or form. Theoretically, it can alter its shape/size just like the Truth Seeker Ball can.








*Question*


Can anyone here highlight the key differences between Yata Mirror and Truth Seeker Ball that I haven't covered?
Where does Yata Mirror stand as a defensive tool in your eyes (What's the strongest attack do you think it can tank)?
Who do you think created Yata Mirror and Tosuka Sword? These two are spiritual items and I doubt that any average Shinobi can create it. How long have they existed? Since it's obviously existed long before Itachi.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2016)

NLF applies to Yata just as it applies to Preta Path (no matter the size or composition all ninjutsu get negated.. or whatever)

There's a cap, for Yata it's a smaller cap because of it's lack of features in comparison to Preta Path that was capable of absorbing Boiler Wave (Fire, Oil, Wind, Senjutsu), V2 Bee (Massive Chakra) & FRS (Large Rasengan, Wind, Senjutsu, moving toward at ridiculous speed) nearly instantly, which established a rather impressive *at least *suction for it's capacity.

Kirin busted it and Itachi's Susano behind it, so it's cap is pretty low IMO. Any legit nuke would probably bust it (Kirin, FRS, Bijuudama, C3, C0, Cherry Blossom, Jinton, PS Slash, Large ST/CST especially, etc.).

It'll still work to fundamentally counter basic elemental techniques (by emitting the element on the mirror in defense) and physical attacks, but attacks on the level of the above are not basic techniques. 

At the highest level all it really does is add a damage cushion for Itachi, in that you have to first destroy the mirror before destroying Susano. V4 Susano itself remains his greatest defense, as it would laugh off basic elemental and physical attacks without a spiritual property, not to mention protecting Itachi from some elite elemental and physical attacks.

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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2016)

Yata should scale to the best V4 feats as there is no reason for the Yata Mirror to be weaker than any Susanoo defense that is Madara's complete V4/PS given it's hype as a supreme defense even amongst Susanoo users. I can see it beating things like Kirin, regular FRS, TBB Rasengan, MAdaras katons, etc. At most I see it defending vs something like HAchibi's laser Bjuublast given it's linear in projection .

That being said it is also subject to NLF as Viz said, so you have to comprehensively look at it's feats, portrayal, and hype and try to fit it into a spectrum of appropriate scaling.Obito's TSB material is fit for Juubi host, and SOSP level of magnitude. IT has better feats against tougher opponents as well. So it outranks Yata in every single category. They even had to strip Madara of said defense against someone of the caliber of 8th Gate Gai so he could get a direct hit. Way above Yata/Itachi's paygrade.

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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> NLF applies to Yata just as it applies to Preta Path (no matter the size or composition all ninjutsu get negated.. or whatever)
> 
> There's a cap, for Yata it's a smaller cap because of it's lack of features in comparison to Preta Path that was capable of absorbing Boiler Wave (Fire, Oil, Wind, Senjutsu), V2 Bee (Massive Chakra) & FRS (Large Rasengan, Wind, Senjutsu, moving toward at ridiculous speed) nearly instantly, which established a rather impressive *at least *suction for it's capacity.
> 
> ...



You're contradicting yourself with this. If Yata Mirror was used and was supposedly broken through by Kirin, by is it still here?

I literally don't know anybody else who thinks that Yata Mirror was used in time against Kirin.





Dr. White said:


> Yata should scale to the best V4 feats as there is no reason for the Yata Mirror to be weaker than any Susanoo defense that is Madara's complete V4/PS given it's hype as a supreme defense even amongst Susanoo users. I can see it beating things like Kirin, regular FRS, TBB Rasengan, MAdaras katons, etc. At most I see it defending vs something like HAchibi's laser Bjuublast given it's linear in projection .
> 
> That being said it is also subject to NLF as Viz said, so you have to comprehensively look at it's feats, portrayal, and hype and try to fit it into a spectrum of appropriate scaling.Obito's TSB material is fit for Juubi host, and SOSP level of magnitude. IT has better feats against tougher opponents as well. So it outranks Yata in every single category. They even had to strip Madara of said defense against someone of the caliber of 8th Gate Gai so he could get a direct hit. Way above Yata/Itachi's paygrade.



What about its hype and descriptions in the databook which is *extremely similar *if not identical to the Truth Seeker Ball? It's obvious that the TSB has better feats since it had more showings. We're discussing the descriptions of those two items.



The *only* reason Yata isn't universally accepted as an ultimate defense is because it was used by Itachi. If it was used by SOT6P or Madara people would be wanking it all over. After all, it is essentially just a tool from legends that people don't even think existed.


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## Android (Dec 15, 2016)

Yata is an overwanked , overrated, featless puny ass shitty weak shield .

TSB - onmyuton - nullifies everything in the universe that isn't Senjutsu or six paths boosted. They literally no-selled 4 Juubidama because they weren't Senjutsu . And can be used for both offense and defense ( sword of nonobuko TBB-Rasenshuriken ...etc etc ).

The two things shouldn't even be put in the same sentence.

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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You're contradicting yourself with this. If Yata Mirror was used and was supposedly broken through by Kirin, by is it still here?
> 
> I literally don't know anybody else who thinks that Yata Mirror was used in time against Kirin.
> 
> ...


They can both be described in similar lights as descriptions, but being on separate levels of power. Yata and Totsuka are very strong weapons, but nothing approaching the caliber of Juubi/SOSP levels in hype or feats. Stuff like BM Naruto attacks, Juubi attacks, black matter TSB shield and defense are too much for Yata and nothing suggest Yata would be able to block them without resorting to No limits fallacy.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> They can both be described in similar lights as descriptions, but being on separate levels of power. Yata and Totsuka are very strong weapons, but nothing approaching the caliber of Juubi/SOSP levels in hype or feats. Stuff like BM Naruto attacks, Juubi attacks, black matter TSB shield and defense are too much for Yata and nothing suggest Yata would be able to block them without resorting to No limits fallacy.




I am not sure how you can say they are on separate levels of power when we've never seen Yata in action. The notion of Yata Mirror not being on SOT6P level in terms of hype is contradicted by Black Zetsu's comment (who is SOT6P's brother himself). 

Not to mention that people actually question whether these spiritual items exist or not (sounds familiar? SOT6P hype). 


As far as I know, no one can actually decisively differentiate these two defenses apart from using the whole TSB having more feats which is pretty obvious. While it is possible that TSB is a stronger as a defense, it is not like the *gap *between them is as big as most people think, which is what I am trying to highlight by comparing their characteristics and hype side by side.

People talk as if the difference between TSB is the sword of nunoboko and Yata Mirror is a freaking kunai when it's clearly not as I've highlighted using manga and databooks.



Let me ask everyone a question. If SOT6P was the user of Yata Mirror, would its hype automatically increase as a result?


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## Drake (Dec 15, 2016)

Yata Mirror blocks and reflects any ninjutsu with a single nature transformation element to it, which includes Kirin. What I am not sure about is if it can actually reflect things like Jinton which have multiple natures to them... I don't know if it was ever stated in the manga that Yata Mirror was limited to one nature transformation at a time.

As for blocking everything else, Yata Mirror should scale to V4 Susano'o's durability feats at the very least.


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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am not sure how you can say they are on separate levels of power when we've never seen Yata in action.


Exactly. Because of this you have to use manga context, the feats it does have and the hype to place it accurately. You can't argue from ignornace or use NLF of it's hyperbolic descriptions to scale it to god tier stuff and grant it unstoppable features. That is the definition of the former two fallacies.

T





> he notion of Yata Mirror not being on SOT6P level in terms of hype is contradicted by Black Zetsu's comment (who is SOT6P's brother himself).


Once again look at it in the manga context. This was back when Sage Mode was still a top tier form alongside V4 Susanoo. Something like Kyuubi's TBB was the top tier attack in the verse. Maybe in regards to all that stuff bar KYuubi's TBB (which would annihilate Itachi) it was unstoppable as a defense and nothing could stop totsuka, but that was in the past and you can't use narraration (which is often times contradictory or unreliable) to fill in the gaps for Totsuka to gain the burden of proof for god tier.





> As far as I know, no one can actually decisively differentiate these two defenses apart from using the whole TSB having more feats which is pretty obvious. While it is possible that TSB is a stronger as a defense, it is not like the *gap *between them is as big as most people think, which is what I am trying to highlight by comparing their characteristics and hype side by side.


You just named the most important aspect. Feats are pretty much the most explcit forms of gaining info on an attack or defense. Not only does it have more feats, but also against much stronger foes. Thus, it's hype of being unstoppable and capable of nulliyfing chakra attacks like TBB, or physical attacks like Tobirama's explosion, or Gai's evening elehpant, is validated. Even from a portrayal standpoint, Susanoo is a byproduct of MS sharingan. That is not on the same portrayal level as something that comes along with being a Sage like being with the chakra and physical potency of the Juubi. Yata is outranked in all factors of analysis. But it's still powerful. Think of Yata has a God like shield amongst high tiers and below, but once you get into top tier/God tier stuff it becomes much less efficient or straight up fodderized. Onmyuton is the God Tier defense of the top tiers and god tiers.






> Let me ask everyone a question. If SOT6P was the user of Yata Mirror, would its hype automatically increase as a result?


Yes because the SOSP had enough chakra to give Naruto the keys to pwning Madara, sealed the Juubi and created the moon, and is the literal godlike figure in Naruto. If he had a legit branch from a tree that was the strongest weapon, than that's just how it would be. Itachi's yata is all hype and very little feats to go off of. The only thing you could scale it from are other V3/V4 defenses. Not PS, not Juubi/Sage stuff, not BM Naruto stuff, etc.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You're contradicting yourself with this. If Yata Mirror was used and was supposedly broken through by Kirin, by is it still here?
> 
> I literally don't know anybody else who thinks that Yata Mirror was used in time against Kirin.
> 
> ...


Yata is wielded by Susano, if he had time to put that up why wouldn't he have time to manifest it with the mirror above him?

Madara & SO6P are fighters well above the power scale of Itachi, both being god levels. Not sure why you chose them as examples.

Juubi TSB *negates* all Ninjutsu as per statement, features and databook, Yata Mirror *reflects* properties of an attack to block it as per statement and databook.

Statements & Databook are not as reliable as features, both are subject to hyperbole for fanservice and inaccuracy depending on the character stating it.

Do you think Preta Path can absorb Superbijuudama because the databook indicated it absorbs all ninjutsu, and katsuya said anything but taijutsu won't work agaisnt him?

I don't, but you have the right to live in NLF land.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Exactly. Because of this you have to use manga context, the feats it does have and the hype to place it accurately. You can't argue from ignornace or use NLF of it's hyperbolic descriptions to scale it to god tier stuff and grant it unstoppable features. That is the definition of the former two fallacies.



I don't understand why a spiritual item hyped by a God's brother cannot be ranked up there as well. 



> T
> Once again look at it in the manga context. This was back when Sage Mode was still a top tier form alongside V4 Susanoo. Something like Kyuubi's TBB was the top tier attack in the verse. Maybe in regards to all that stuff bar KYuubi's TBB (which would annihilate Itachi) it was unstoppable as a defense and nothing could stop totsuka, but that was in the past and you can't use narraration (which is often times contradictory or unreliable) to fill in the gaps for Totsuka to gain the burden of proof for god tier.



If something has limited feats, you would obviously have to look at both manga *and* databook. If it was just a statement in the manga I wouldn't obviously compare it to TSB. But the fact that Yata and TSB have practically *identical *descriptions, that's something you can't just ignore.




> You just named the most important aspect. Feats are pretty much the most explcit forms of gaining info on an attack or defense. Not only does it have more feats, but also against much stronger foes. Thus, it's hype of being unstoppable and capable of nulliyfing chakra attacks like TBB, or physical attacks like Tobirama's explosion, or Gai's evening elehpant, is validated.



SOT6P was also hyped as being able to create all things, do this and that back in early part 2. No one tries to disprove that hype despite the fact that we haven't even seen it. Why is Yata Mirror's hype any different? 

If something was *explicitly stated* to be able to do something (by someone who's the most knowledgeable in the manga) and has the *same description *as TSB, why is the gap between them so big? 





> Even from a portrayal standpoint, Susanoo is a byproduct of MS sharingan. That is not on the same portrayal level as something that comes along with being a Sage like being with the chakra and physical potency of the Juubi. Yata is outranked in all factors of analysis. But it's still powerful. Think of Yata has a God like shield amongst high tiers and below, but once you get into top tier/God tier stuff it becomes much less efficient or straight up fodderized. Onmyuton is the God Tier defense of the top tiers and god tiers.



This doesn't really answer my question at all. 

The only thing Yata Mirror is outranked by is the number of appearances. 




> Yes because the SOSP had enough chakra to give Naruto the keys to pwning Madara, sealed the Juubi and created the moon, and is the literal godlike figure in Naruto. If he had a legit branch from a tree that was the strongest weapon, than that's just how it would be. Itachi's yata is all hype and very little feats to go off of. The only thing you could scale it from are other V3/V4 defenses. Not PS, not Juubi/Sage stuff, not BM Naruto stuff, etc.




I think you're underrating the potency of tools in Narutoverse.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yata is wielded by Susano, if he had time to put that up why wouldn't he have time to manifest it with the mirror above him?
> 
> Madara & SO6P are fighters well above the power scale of Itachi, both being god levels. Not sure why you chose them as examples.



Yata Mirror is a tool existed far longer than Itachi and even Madara. Using Itachi and his Susano as scale for Yata Mirror is ridiculous.

Oh yeah, what sounds more logical to you?

1. Itachi manifests Susano+Yata Mirror but it's both destroyed, but Yata reforms itself.

Or

2. Itachi couldn't manifest Yata Mirror in time to defend against Kirin (thus, Yata Mirror was undamaged).

*Itachi can manifest Susano without Yata Mirror. *Perhaps Yata Mirror needs an extra time to be manifested itself, since it's not technically Susano.



> Juubi TSB *negates* all Ninjutsu as per statement, features and databook, Yata Mirror *reflects* properties of an attack to block it as per statement and databook.
> 
> Statements & Databook are not as reliable as features, both are subject to hyperbole for fanservice and inaccuracy depending on the character stating it.





"Rendering the attack ineffective"........

Also, I am not using NLF, I am using logic to deduce that Yata Mirror has been vastly underestimated by people who don't understand it.

*Its limits is probably dependent on its user just like every other tool out there.
*
Itachi's limits are his time limit on Susano. If Yata is used by Madara, then I wouldn't be surprised



> Do you think Preta Path can absorb Superbijuudama because the databook indicated it absorbs all ninjutsu, and katsuya said anything but taijutsu won't work agaisnt him?
> 
> I don't, but you have the right to live in NLF land.



Who knows if Preta Path can absorb it or not. Technically it only has to absorb the area surrounding the user to keep it safe from the explosion, not the entire thing.

Can it absorb all of it? Probably dependent on the limits of the *user.
*
Edit: Come to think of it, Preta Path can absorb Sage enhanced attacks, but TSB couldn't get rid of it.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 15, 2016)

> Yata Mirror is a tool existed far longer than Itachi and even Madara. Using Itachi and his Susano as scale for Yata Mirror is ridiculous.


Not sure what you're talking about here.



> 1. Itachi manifests Susano+Yata Mirror but it's both destroyed, but Yata reforms itself.


Correct, a spiritual weapon can't be destroyed forever, that's kind of the point of being spiritual.



> 2. Itachi couldn't manifest Yata Mirror in time to defend against Kirin (thus, Yata Mirror was undamaged).


The Mirror is wielded through Susano, implying it can't be manifested as quickly as Susano is illogical.



> *Itachi can manifest Susano without Yata Mirror. *Perhaps Yata Mirror needs an extra time to be manifested itself, since it's not technically Susano.


Of course he can, he can also manifest it with the spirtual weapons, just as Sasuke manifests his with a crossbow on the arm.

Nothing indicates through evidence or basic logic that Yata Mirror would require extra time to be manifested with Susano. It's the weapon of the Susano.



> Also, I am not using NLF, I am using logic to deduce that Yata Mirror has been vastly underestimated by people who don't understand it.


It has virtually no features. It blocked explosion tags and was destroyed so easily by Kirin that the Susano behind it also was destroyed.



> *Its limits is probably dependent on its user just like every other tool out there.*


It's not a basic tool, it's a spiritual weapon of Itachi's Susano.



> Itachi's limits are his time limit on Susano. If Yata is used by Madara, then I wouldn't be surprised


No, they're not. The mirror's limit is somewhere below Kirin level, as it blew through the mirror and still annhiliated the entirety of Itachi's Susano.





> Who knows if Preta Path can absorb it or not. Technically it only has to absorb the area surrounding the user to keep it safe from the explosion, not the entire thing.


Um, no. Explosions can't be absorbed at all. 



> Can it absorb all of it? Probably dependent on the limits of the *user.*


No. 



> Edit: Come to think of it, Preta Path can absorb Sage enhanced attacks, but TSB couldn't get rid of it.


That's Juubi's TSB weakness. Preta Path's being explosions, physical attacks, etc. - both of which the technique does nothing to prevent at all - while Juubi's TSB don't directly negate, but are still exceptionally adept at protecting against explosions (4 Juubi TBB Fallout) physical attacks (Evening Elephant), and even sage enhanced attacks (Senpo Bijuudama [BSM Naruto], Senpo Bijuu Rasengan [BSM Naruto/BM Minato]) of the highest order.

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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2016)

We don't know if Itachi used Yata vs Kirin so it's pointless to claim one way or another. It was also likely that Itachi only had V2 Susanoo up given that's the one he re brought up to show Sasuke before going into V4, and the fact that we know Susanoo users rely on the lower grade forms for faster reactions (in regards to summoning Susnaoo).


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Correct, a spiritual weapon can't be destroyed forever, that's kind of the point of being spiritual.



You're contradicting yourself. How can you say Yata Mirror cannot be destroyed, and say that it was destroyed by Kirin?





> The Mirror is wielded through Susano, implying it can't be manifested as quickly as Susano is illogical.
> 
> Of course he can, he can also manifest it with the spirtual weapons, just as Sasuke manifests his with a crossbow on the arm.



It's wielded through Susano, but it's not Susano......Sasuke's crossbow IS his Susano, and it's not a spiritual tool like Yata Mirror. It cannot be compared at all.



> Nothing indicates through evidence or basic logic that Yata Mirror would require extra time to be manifested with Susano. It's the weapon of the Susano.



It's a far more logical conclusion than to say Itachi used Yata Mirror to defend Kirin when Yata Mirror was only introduced when Itachi used V4 during that fight.



> It has virtually no features. It blocked explosion tags and was destroyed so easily by Kirin that the Susano behind it also was destroyed


.

Not sure why this is relevant. It has no feats, but its hype is far beyond other defenses out there in Narutoverse apart from TSB.



> It's not a basic tool, it's a spiritual weapon of Itachi's Susano.



It's not a weapon manifested by Susano like Sasuke's bows or Madara's swords. It's an external weapon added to Susano by some unknown method.



> No, they're not. The mirror's limit is somewhere below Kirin level, as it blew through the mirror and still annhiliated the entirety of Itachi's Susano.



False. Do you even know what version of Susano Itachi used to defend Kirin?





A better question for you would be this.

Name one or two other defense that has comparable hype to Yata Mirror?


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

I think the most apparent difference between the 2 is that TSB can be used on offense as well. Yata is strictly defense. But I believe Yata is supposed to reflect the attacks back and TSB will stop any ninjutsu, but not reflect it. I was also always curious how Hagoromo used Nonobuko to create the world. In every flashback and all, that sword was never even mentioned. And the world already existed when Kaguya arrived, let alone when Hagoromo was born. Confusing era


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## Rai (Dec 15, 2016)

Yata Mirror is superior as stated by BZ (Kaguya's will)

It can tank Expansive TSB


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

If the attack is large enough to swallow the entire Susano'o, then it can still get Itachi.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> If the attack is large enough to swallow the entire Susano'o, then it can still get Itachi.




But Yata Mirror can expand though.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yata is an overwanked , overrated, fearless puny ass shitty weak shield .
> 
> TSB - onmyuton - nullifies everything in the universe that isn't Senjutsu or six paths boosted. They literally no-selled 4 Juubidama because they weren't Senjutsu . And can be used for both offense and defense ( sword of nonobuko TBB-Rasenshuriken ...etc etc ).
> 
> The two things shouldn't even be put in the same sentence.


Winner winner chicken dinner.

TSB>>>>>Dimensional Gap>>>>>Yata

If they clashed, as in, a TSB rammed into Yata, Yata would disintegrate, no question.

TSBs were also used to block 4 of the Juubitree bombs and they didnt even feel it.

Yata would get demolished against a single Juubidama, its unlikely it can even tank a TBBs explosion honestly.

Yata isnt in the same league as the TSBs.

Id say at best, you could scale Yatas defense to somewhere around V3 mads susanoo, nowhere near his colossal V4 and legit dirt compared to a PS, take from that what you will.

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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Winner winner chicken dinner.
> 
> TSB>>>>>Dimensional Gap>>>>>Yata
> 
> ...




Zero evidence to back up your "dimensional gap". 


Also...

Yata Mirror is about equal to V3 Susano in terms of defensive capability? 

What is the logic behind that thinking? A shield is weaker than the body it is protecting?

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## Android (Dec 15, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I think the most apparent difference between the 2 is that TSB can be used on offense as well. Yata is strictly defense. But I believe Yata is supposed to reflect the attacks back and TSB will stop any ninjutsu, but not reflect it. I was also always curious how Hagoromo used Nonobuko to create the world. In every flashback and all, that sword was never even mentioned. And the world already existed when Kaguya arrived, let alone when Hagoromo was born. Confusing era


The sword was used to RESHAPE the world, not to create it .
A big difference.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Zero evidence to back up your "dimensional gap".


Dont see Yata tanking 4 juubidamas without a damn scratch.
Dont see the damn featless thing tanking a single one, let alone 4.
Dont see it tanking a TBB either.

Wanna prove me wrong???

Didnt think so. 


Sapherosth said:


> Yata Mirror is about equal to V3 Susano in terms of defensive capability?


I said around Mads V3 susanoo, not necessarily below, or above it, just a benchmark, calm down.


Sapherosth said:


> What is the logic behind that thinking? A shield is weaker than the body it is protecting?


Implying Itachis V3=Mads V3...lolno....


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## Android (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Winner winner chicken dinner.
> 
> TSB>>>>>Dimensional Gap>>>>>Yata
> 
> ...


Thanks fam , appreciate the love.

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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont see Yata tanking 4 juubidamas without a damn scratch.



Well, it's a shame Yata hasn't had as much screen time. 

Care to point out any differences of their descriptions in the databook and manga? 

Have you even read the OP? 



> I said around Mads V3 susanoo, not necessarily below, or above it, just a benchmark, calm down.
> 
> Implying Itachis V3=Mads V3...lolno....



Show me a panel of Madara's V3 Susano tanking anything near Kirin's level.....

Didn't think so.

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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Show me a panel of Madara's V3 Susano tanking anything near Kirin's level.....
> 
> Didn't think so.


Hirudora?


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## Android (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont see Yata tanking 4 juubidamas without a damn scratch.
> Dont see the damn featless thing tanking a single one, let alone 4.
> Dont see it tanking a TBB either.
> 
> ...


Damn, fantastic post !
Please tear this thread up !


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well, it's a shame Yata hasn't had as much screen time.


Seems kishi deemed the damn thing irrelevant when he totally forgot to give it to edo itachi.



Sapherosth said:


> Care to point out any differences of their descriptions in the databook and manga?


The databook claims its imbued with all natures like a TSB, so it should have the same nullification property, only it doesnt, or it would have atomized sasukes sword on contact, or oros hydra on contact, or kirin on contact.

So i guess that could be considered a contradiction/Inconsistency between the manga and the DB.


Sapherosth said:


> Have you even read the OP?


Sure did champ. Thanks for asking.




Sapherosth said:


> Show me a panel of Madara's V3 Susano tanking anything near Kirin's level.....
> 
> Didn't think so




This guy thinks itachis V3 tanked kirin.....the damn thing was atomized son, and itachi got laid out and injured by kirin despite the fact he had V3 with yata up....

"Itachis V3 tanked kirin"


Whats next, "Kisame tanked hirudora"? Thats always fun.

Oh, and speaking of *hirudora*, Mads V3 tanked that, and that thing is at least in the same league as kirin considering its explosion was bigger than an island and rocked the entire island it was next to, and it didnt even scratch mads susanoos paint.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Hirudora?




There is no way that a human generated taijutsu technique is going to be stronger than the strongest Raiton in the manga that cannot be replicated by normal humans. Not to mention Hirudora didn't even obliterate Kisame's bare body. Kirin would decimate him.


Hirudora > Human level.

Kirin > Not Human level.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> There is no way that a human generated taijutsu technique is going to be stronger than the strongest Raiton in the manga that cannot be replicated by normal humans. Not to mention Hirudora didn't even obliterate Kisame's bare body. Kirin would decimate him.
> 
> 
> Hirudora > Human level.
> ...


Feats>>>>>>>>>Semantics...

Let the scans do the talkin...

Kirin


Hirudora




Nuff Said. They at least comparable.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Seems kishi deemed the damn thing irrelevant when he totally forgot to give it to edo itachi.



Irrelevant point.



> The databook claims its imbued with all natures like a TSB, so it should have the same nullification property, only it doesnt, or it would have atomized sasukes sword on contact, or oros hydra on contact, or kirin on contact.



You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I already explained the differences in the OP.



> So i guess that could be considered a contradiction/Inconsistency between the manga and the DB.
> 
> Sure did champ. Thanks for asking.



You obviously didn't understand it. 





> This guy thinks itachis V3 tanked kirin.....the damn thing was atomized son, and itachi got laid out and injured by kirin despite the fact he had V3 with yata up....



Yeah, but did Itachi die or lose a limb? 




> Whats next, "Kisame tanked hirudora"? Thats always fun.



He actually did though. He wasn't even incapacitated or passed out.





> Oh, and speaking of *hirudora*, Mads V3 taked that, and that thing is at least in the same league as kirin considering its explosion was bigger than an island and rocked the entire island it was next to, and it didnt even scratch mads susanoos paint.





Hirudora is not on the same level as Kirin. What are you smoking? 


Hirudora > Blunt taijutsu damage.

Kirin - Raiton technique on a completely different scale to what humans can do + vastly more penetrative power than Hirudora.







Sit down before you embarrass yourself any further


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, but did Itachi die or lose a limb?



Did susanoo exist after that kirin? No? Then it didnt tank it. Period.



Sapherosth said:


> He actually did though. He wasn't even incapacitated or passed out.


Oh boy...


Sapherosth said:


> Hirudora is not on the same level as Kirin. What are you smoking?


Check out the scans man, they comparable, kirin may very well be the stronger technique, but hirudora is within the same tier for sure.


Sapherosth said:


> Sit down before you embarrass yourself any further


Says the guy who thinks itachis V3 is = Mads and that itachis V3 tanked kirin when it was disintegrated by it and failed to protect itachi from its damage...


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Feats>>>>>>>>>Semantics...
> 
> Let the scans do the talkin...
> 
> ...



You've got to be kidding me. That is one of the worst argument I've ever seen in my life. 


Might as well say Hachibi's whirlwind is more powerful than both of those techniques since it has a wider radius than both of them.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You've got to be kidding me. That is one of the worst argument I've ever seen in my life.
> 
> 
> Might as well say Hachibi's whirlwind is more powerful than both of those techniques since it has a wider radius than both of them.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Did susanoo exist after that kirin? No? Then it didnt tank it. Period.



It obviously did because the user survived. 




> Oh boy...



Did Kisame die or was incapacitated? 



> Check out the scans man, they comparable, kirin may very well be the stronger technique, but hirudora is within the same tier for sure.



Refer to my post above. Just because something has a wider radius or looks more destructive on a wider scale doesn't mean it's more powerful or damaging. 

*You should really learn to differentiate between the two. Not all techniques have the same properties. Just because something is larger doesn't mean it's stronger.*



> Says the guy who thinks itachis V3 is = Mads and that itachis V3 tanked kirin when it was disintegrated by it and failed to protect itachi from its damage...




Did Itachi die? Was he incapacitated or unconscious? If not, Susano served its purpose.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It obviously did because the user survived.


Cant tell if serious...



Sapherosth said:


> You should really learn to differentiate between the two. Not all techniques have the same properties. Just because something is larger doesn't mean it's stronger.


You should really learn to differentiate between the two, not all techniques have the same properties. Just because something has greater penetrative force doesnt mean its stronger.

See? I can dance around semantics to.



Sapherosth said:


> Did Itachi die? Was he incapacitated or unconscious? If not, Susano served its purpose.


But, was there anything left of the susanoo itachi used to block kirin after that attack? 

LOLNOPE.

Ergo, itachis susanoo didnt tank shit. Itachi was also injured through its protection to top it off.

Not to mention the man lost his coat.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


>





You've totally missed the entire point. Not sure if it's on purpose to try and hide your embarrassment or you just genuinely believe that Hachibi's whirlwhip can deal more damage than Kirin.

Either way, I've already proven my point. No need to go further with this when it's not even relevant to the OP.


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

This thread is simply an attempt for you to wank Itachi even more than you normally do. Comparing the Yata Mirror and the Truth-Seeking Balls is utterly ridiculous. The Yata Mirror is a nigh-featless and overhyped shield that relies entirely on Databook hyperbole that only covered a little more than half of the series. Your logic is based almost entirely on no limits fallacy which severely hurts your overall argument. The Truth-Seeking Balls are unique and rare entities that are wielded by the Gods of the series and have been shown to withstand pretty much anything in addition to being reinforced by the latest Databooks. Whilst the Yata Mirror countered Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi, some explosive kunai, and was never used again after that point. If it's so invincible why didn't Edo Itachi have himself, Naruto, and Killer B camp in it to negate all of Nagato's attacks? Or have him and Sasuke do the same against Kabuto? Your argument also relies on what Black Zetsu said, who also didn't know what a Susanoo was. As evident by him calling it "that jutsu" meaning he isn't familiar with it. That was also said long before the idea of him being Kaguya's will was thought of, for obvious reasons. So in the end, Zetsu's words at that point in time are pretty much meaningless.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This thread is simply an attempt for you to wank Itachi even more than you normally do. Comparing the Yata Mirror and the Truth-Seeking Balls is utterly ridiculous. The Yata Mirror is a nigh-featless and overhyped shield that relies entirely on Databook hyperbole that only covered a little more than half of the series. Your logic is based almost entirely on no limits fallacy which severely hurts your overall argument. The Truth-Seeking Balls are unique and rare entities that are wielded by the Gods of the series and have been shown to withstand pretty much anything in addition to being reinforced by the latest Databooks. Whilst the Yata Mirror countered Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi, some explosive kunai, and was never used again after that point. If it's so invincible why didn't Edo Itachi have himself, Naruto, and Killer B camp in it to negate all of Nagato's attacks? Or have him and Sasuke do the same against Kabuto? Your argument also relies on what Black Zetsu said, who also didn't know what a Susanoo was. As evident by him calling it "that jutsu" meaning he isn't familiar with it. That was also said long before the idea of him being Kaguya's will was thought of, for obvious reasons. So in the end, Zetsu's words at that point in time are pretty much meaningless.






I am sorry but your argument is absolute trash. 

"Truth-Seeking Balls are unique and rare entities"

Spare me this BS. There are only *two spiritual tools in this entire manga.* It doesn't get any rarer than that! As for the TBS? It's been wielded by a loooooong list of people. Honestly, its rarity pales in comparison to Yata Mirror.


*
If Kishi truly meant to make TBS and Yata Mirror different, he wouldn't have made TBS to have the same properties as Yata Mirror with all five nature transformations and the ability to render spiritual and physical attacks useless. 

*
As for the point about Itachi not using it on Nagato and Kabuto.....wow...Not sure if you're trolling now. 



Nagato - There was zero opportunity to use it since they owned Nagato so fast. Name me 1 attack during that fight that Itachi should've used Yata to defend.


Kabuto - He was prepping Izanami and needs to be in CQC so using Yata Mirror to wall himself from Kabuto would be counterproductive 



Try harder please.....


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am sorry but your argument is absolute trash.
> 
> "Truth-Seeking Balls are unique and rare entities"
> 
> Spare me this BS. There are only *two spiritual tools in this entire manga.* It doesn't get any rarer than that! As for the TBS? It's been wielded by a loooooong list of people. Honestly, its rarity pales in comparison to Yata Mirror.


 Irrelevant, I never used that as the basis for my argument.





> *If Kishi truly meant to make TBS and Yata Mirror different, he wouldn't have made TBS to have the same properties as Yata Mirror with all five nature transformations and the ability to render spiritual and physical attacks useless.*


 Oh so now you know what Kishimoto is thinking now? He clearly intended for the TSBs and Yata Mirror to be on the same level because they have some similarities?
*
*


> As for the point about Itachi not using it on Nagato and Kabuto.....wow...Not sure if you're trolling now.
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato - There was zero opportunity to use it since they owned Nagato so fast. Name me 1 attack during that fight that Itachi should've used Yata to defend.


 He could've used it to tank Chibaku Tensei, and simply march over to Nagato and wall him instead of getting scared and saying "Here he comes" as he was about to attack. Why worry about any of his attacks, let alone counter CT, when he can casually tank it since he's basically invincible? Nagato would be no threat to Edo Itachi, yet he took a cautious approach and came up with a strategy to deal with him.




> Kabuto - He was prepping Izanami and needs to be in CQC so using Yata Mirror to wall himself from Kabuto would be counterproductive


 He could've used it several times to counter certain attacks, but chose not too. What for?





> Try harder please.....


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Irrelevant, I never used that as the basis for my argument.



You based your argument on TSB being more rare and unique, but I owned you by proving otherwise.




> Oh so now you know what Kishimoto is thinking now? He clearly intended for the TSBs and Yata Mirror to be on the same level and work similar because they way they work is similar?



It doesn't take a genius to work out that those two are similar. It's blatantly obvious really....You'd have to go out of your way to ignore the manga and databook to think otherwise.

*Yata Mirror doesn't even have to be on the same level as TSB because TSB is ridiculously overpowered as it is. All Yata Mirror needs is to be close to it, which it is based on its description in the manga and databook.

*


> He could've used it to tank Chibaku Tensei, and simply march over to Nagato and wall him instead of getting scared and saying "Here he comes" as he was about to attack. Why worry about any of his attacks, let alone counter CT, when he can casually tank it since he's basically invincible? Nagato would be no threat to Edo Itachi, yet he took a cautious approach and came up with a strategy to deal with him.



Let me ask you....What's the best method of countering CT? 

Attack it to destroy the core and KO its user? Or to let it drag you and your teammate to the core just to prove your Mirror's invincibility. 

It's not rocket science that the first method is the most efficient, which is what Itachi went for.




> He could've used it several times to counter certain attacks, but chose not too. What for?



Lmao, I already told you. He's prepping Izanami. It's no different than me asking why Itachi doesn't use V4 Susano or why Kabuto doesn't just summon back his Edo zombies or Manda.

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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

iirc Itachi got cut in half because he needed to

- Implant a physical sensation for Izanami
- Protect Sasuke.


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You based your argument on TSB being more rare and unique, but I owned you by proving otherwise.


 No, I didn't provide much of a counter argument in favor of TSBs to begin with because anyone who isn't a blind fanboy would never make such a comparison at all. But if I based it on anything, I based it on the fact that it belongs to Godly characters and has been shown to withstand almost anything unlike the Yata Mirror. 






> It doesn't take a genius to work out that those two are similar. It's blatantly obvious really....You'd have to go out of your way to ignore the manga and databook to think otherwise.
> 
> *Yata Mirror doesn't even have to be on the same level as TSB because TSB is ridiculously overpowered as it is. All Yata Mirror needs is to be close to it, which it is based on its description in the manga and databook. *


 It's description in the Manga is founded in Black Zetsu, who is unreliable source, and the Third Databook, which is oudated and uses hyperbole. Try again please.
*
*




> Let me ask you....What's the best method of countering CT?
> 
> Attack it to destroy the core and KO its user? Or to let it drag you and your teammate to the core just to prove your Mirror's invincibility.
> 
> It's not rocket science that the first method is the most efficient, which is what Itachi went for.


 Stop reaching, if Edo Itachi truly had an invincible shield at his disposal that he could use to tank absolutely anything then we would've seen it during the War Arc. You're literally saying that Edo Itachi is pretty much invincible, when the Manga showed otherwise. 






> Lmao, I already told you. He's prepping Izanami. It's no different than me asking why Itachi doesn't use V4 Susano or why Kabuto doesn't just summon back his Edo zombies or Manda.


 What the hell does prepping Izanami have to do with not choosing to tank attacks he could tank? Not every single movement in the battle as apart of Izanami, only a handful of them were. He had the ability to use the Yata Mirror to effortlessly counter certain attacks aimed at him and Sasuke, but employed other methods instead.


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 15, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The sword was used to RESHAPE the world, not to create it .
> A big difference.


that makes sense. But Obito specifically said "create". And Hagoromo himself never even referenced it in all his flashbacks


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

When kishi hypes up *literally anything* not named otsutsuki or adjacent to otsutsuki, it almost *never lives up to its hype.
*
What are ya gunna do?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No, I didn't provide much of a counter argument in favor of TSBs to begin with because anyone who isn't a blind fanboy would never make such a comparison at all. But if I based it on anything, I based it on the fact that it belongs to Godly characters and has been shown to withstand almost anything unlike the Yata Mirror.



Kishi compared them by making them have the same properties. 




> It's description in the Manga is founded in Black Zetsu, who is unreliable source, and the Third Databook, which is oudated and uses hyperbole. Try again please.



Lmao, why is Black Zetsu unreliable? 

The only thing BZ isn't reliable about is his relationship with Madara/Obito/Kaguya. 

Things like description of a super natural item that's even rarer than your TSB is based on BZ's knowledge, which is far superior to any other character in the manga.

Your point about him not recognising Susano can be answered so simply if you use a little bit of brain power. 

1. Black Zetsu keeping cover against White Zetsu to not reveal his true identity. Remember at that point in time, we just knew him as Zetsu. 

2. Kishi keeping Zetsu's identity hidden from us readers. If Black Zetsu somehow knew about Susano, we as readers would automatically speculate who Black Zetsu really is. 

It's not rocket science. 



> Stop reaching, if Edo Itachi truly had an invincible shield at his disposal that he could use to tank absolutely anything then we would've seen it during the War Arc. You're literally saying that Edo Itachi is pretty much invincible, when the Manga showed otherwise.



There are always weaknesses in this manga. Haven't you read the manga? Itachi isn't invincible. 




> What the hell does prepping Izanami have to do with not choosing to tank attacks he could tank? Not every single movement in the battle as apart of Izanami, only a handful of them were. He had the ability to use the Yata Mirror to effortlessly counter certain attacks aimed at him and Sasuke, but employed other methods instead.




ZzZzZz

Already explained.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 15, 2016)

Sure, BZ didn't know what a Susano'o was. But he knew what the Yata Mirror was.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> When kishi hypes up literally anything not named otsutsuki or adjacent to otsutsuki, it _*almost*_ never lives up to its hype.
> 
> What are ya gunna do?




The keyword here is "Almost"......


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Kishi compared them by making them have the same properties.


 You aren't understanding what I'm saying, it's the fact that you legitimately think they're close in power that is ridiculous. You're comparing a godly senjutsu that has been shown to withstand some of the most powerful techniques in the series to an ungodly shield that has shown next to nothing and was never brought up ever again. Do you see the problem here? 






> Lmao, why is Black Zetsu unreliable?
> 
> The only thing BZ isn't reliable about is his relationship with Madara/Obito/Kaguya.
> 
> ...


 This is all bullshit and you know it, Zetsu was speaking based on old legends that he had heard. He wasn't speaking from personal experience at all, and it's very obvious. You're using Kishimoto's bullshit retcon as a means of trying to justify Itachi being potentially invincible when the Manga has illustrated otherwise. 



[





> There are always weaknesses in this manga. Haven't you read the manga? Itachi isn't invincible.


 What weakness does Edo Itachi have with the Yata Mirror then? He can activate V4 Susanoo and sit there with the Yata Mirror around his body without any worries if it's so invincible according to you. 







> ZzZzZz
> 
> Already explained.


 Whatever you say.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You aren't understanding what I'm saying, it's the fact that you legitimately think they're close in power that is ridiculous. You're comparing a godly senjutsu that has been shown to withstand some of the most powerful techniques in the series to an ungodly shield that has shown next to nothing and was never brought up ever again. Do you see the problem here?




Ungodly shield, hahaha. I don't see TSB being called "spiritual item" anywhere in this manga. Spiritual.....I'd say that's quite a Godly/Unearthly term.



> This is all bullshit and you know it, Zetsu was speaking based on old legends that he had heard. He wasn't speaking from personal experience at all, and it's very obvious. You're using Kishimoto's bullshit retcon as a means of trying to justify Itachi being potentially invincible when the Manga has illustrated otherwise.



So now you're playing the legends card, eh.....No worries, I have a counter for that.

Early Part 2 people were hyping Rikudou sennin based on old legends. He was hyped as being able to do anything, but he was also said to just be a legend and not real. <- You and many others believed that SOT6P was undisputed the strongest and can do anything without a second thought.

So WHY is it, that when Black Zetsu, someone who is far more qualified than Obito/Onoki to speak about a supernatural/spiritual item, its suddenly BS and inconceivable?

*I smell double standards here......*

Oh yes, even if you claim that BZ is a retcon, he is either Kaguya's child or Madara's Will. Both of which are far more credible and qualified to speak about legendary items than anyone else in the manga. It's a lose lose situation for you tbh....




> [ What weakness does Edo Itachi have with the Yata Mirror then? He can activate V4 Susanoo and sit there with the Yata Mirror around his body without any worries if it's so invincible according to you.



Who knows, but at the very least, It's probably the reason why Itachi himself thought that he was unstoppable.

If the TSB has a weakness, Yata Mirror probably has one as well. It's not that hard to believe.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The keyword here is "Almost"......


Implying yata has any feats to support its outdated hype


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Implying yata has any feats to support its outdated hype




_"People Live their Lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That is how they define "Reality" . But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? They are merely vague concepts... Their "Reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to be simply living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"_
_

_

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## The_Conqueror (Dec 15, 2016)

Yata is like "prime hiruzen" all hype and less feats .


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> "People Live their Lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That is how they define "Reality" . But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? They are merely vague concepts... Their "Reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to be simply living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"


Its not a mirage that yata is a featless paperweight 

Its manga fact the thing hasnt done jack shit to impress anyone 

Youre the one whos interpreting a Mirage based solely on outdated hype 


_"You thinking yata isnt featless dirt is just your arbitrary assumption, just like how you used to think, itachi was the kind and gentle solo king, pretending to be the type of character you hoped for, was only to determine your ability"_

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not a mirage that yata is a featless paperweight
> 
> Its manga fact the thing hasnt done jack shit to impress anyone
> 
> ...




Well, it sure as hell impressed SOT6P's brother and Kaguya's son who has witnessed pretty much everything since the dawn of time.  

I didn't see Black Zetsu being impressed by TSB at all. Actually, I've never seen him hype up anything else to this extent in the manga. 



Anyways, I've already destroyed your weak points. Everything that needed to be said was said. You're welcome to live in your illusion that Yata Mirror is as durable as V3 Susano.


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## Veracity (Dec 16, 2016)

I'm pretty Black Zetsu wasn't even related to the Sages when he witnessed Itachi's battle. Kishi was literally creating parts of the manga on the fly lmao. That's why the end was so fucked up


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## Android (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> There is no way that a human generated taijutsu technique is going to be stronger than the strongest Raiton in the manga that cannot be replicated by normal humans. Not to mention Hirudora didn't even obliterate Kisame's bare body. Kirin would decimate him.
> 
> 
> Hirudora > Human level.
> ...


By this vague dumb laughable logic :
Kirin should be >>>> Night guy .
Because lol human lvl

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 16, 2016)

Veracity said:


> I'm pretty Black Zetsu wasn't even related to the Sages when he witnessed Itachi's battle. Kishi was literally creating parts of the manga on the fly lmao. That's why the end was so fucked up




Might as well say Tobi wasn't supposed to be Obito as well, since Kishi supposedly makes it up on the fly.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Can anyone here highlight the key differences between Yata Mirror and Truth Seeker Ball that I haven't covered?
> Where does Yata Mirror stand as a defensive tool in your eyes (What's the strongest attack do you think it can tank)?
> Who do you think created Yata Mirror and Tosuka Sword? These two are spiritual items and I doubt that any average Shinobi can create it. How long have they existed? Since it's obviously existed long before Itachi.



1. Yes, Yata's Mirror has no Yin, Yang or Yin-Yang nature. By then we were already aware of those natures and Susanoo's mirror was not classed as part of it. It can block physical attacks as in physical attacks like a sword or a fist. It can also block spiritual attacks, the closest example I can think is the Gedo Mazo's spirit dragon attack. 
The Truth Seeker Orb is the only thing which can use all the nature transformations in addition to Yin-Yang.

2. I think it can tank anything except Gedo Dama and obvious things like it cannot block sound attacks... potentially it can't block natural energy attacks like frog smash. This is easier to judge when if you specify things, but for the most part it should guard against most things.

3. Yata's Mirror and Totsuka come with every level 4 incomplete body Susanoo. The databook indicated that Susanoo users had these items. The only exception appear to be Indra transmigrants, even then Sasuke showed the shield and used a lower variant of the sword. 
It came with Susanoo just like how PS comes with the items it comes with unless the user's unique abilities can manifest something different. 
Of course, it can be that Indra's transmigrants access the same PS as, outside Hagoromo, they are the only ones who can access it. However considering Sasuke can choose to have a bow, a shield, a normal sword or an arrow or even an Enton arrow... it is likely that with PS the user can use their chakra manipulating abilities to manifest other items like a drill or sword... or even items which have the user's powers e.g. Kamui shuriken. Though I don't see why someone would alter PS' swords like Shisui/Itachi would in the games considering it can smash all creation.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well, it sure as hell impressed SOT6P's brother and Kaguya's son who has witnessed pretty much everything since the dawn of time.


This happened before BZ was Kaguyas will, thats half the reason i called your information "outdated"


Also, BZ was a bonafide moron at that point in the manga

*"Itachi is invincible"*

Itachi is dead panels later...His invincible shield was also worthless against nagato and kabuto apparently...

*"Tsukuyomi is the ultimate genjutsu"*

His entire plan is about using the infinite tsukuyomi which is>>>>>itachis tech as its on rikudo roids, and i guess BZ also never heard of kotoamatsukami or heard the name shisui either...cuz...well...

*"Amaterasu is the ultimate physical attack"*

Kirin gets introduced seconds later and demolishes that statement, not to mention if BZ really was supposed to have been around during Kaguyas time at this point in the series, he would have seen the fight between the juubi and hagoromo/hamura, and i sincerely doubt they had weaker physical attacks than amaterasu...

Still doesnt do it for you?

BZ stated he manipulated the reincarnations throughout history, that means he was around when mads fought hashirama...

You about to tell me that amaterasu>PS strikes and Kyuubisanoo?

Or amaterasu>SS and Chojo Kebutsu?

Cmon fam...



Sapherosth said:


> I didn't see Black Zetsu being impressed by TSB at all. Actually, I've never seen him hype up anything



Hype alone means jack 

And the hype he gave yata was proven to be BS seconds later

And yatas "invincibility" was all but forgotten during the war arc

Maybe it was retconned out of existence entirely 

Or maybe when it clashed with sasukes sword and yamata it broke and itachi couldnt use it anymore 


Sapherosth said:


> Anyways, I've already destroyed your weak points. Everything that needed to be said was said.


You have destroyed nothing...

Every time youre asked to prove your point you have one thing to say...

"Hypeeeeeeeeeee"

As to "what needs to be said" some feats would be nice, as opposed to simply a NLF.



Sapherosth said:


> You're welcome to live in your illusion that Yata Mirror is as durable as V3 Susano.


1. I said it was *around* a V3s level, do you not know, what a benchmark is? I also went on to say it would be lower than mads V4, to further emphasize a benchmark...

2. I said it was Mads V3, which is >any other V3 aside from rikudo V3s

3. Its way less of an illusion than believing the damn thing is TBB+ level when it has nothing indicating anywhere near that level of durability, pretty sure you go so far as to think its Juubidama level....lolwut...

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## Sapherosth (Dec 16, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This happened before BZ was Kaguyas will, thats half the reason i called your information "outdated"
> 
> 
> Also, BZ was a bonafide moron at that point in the manga
> ...






I guess Kabuto is also unreliable. 

Let's try another translation?







> Still doesnt do it for you?
> 
> BZ stated he manipulated the reincarnations throughout history, that means he was around when mads fought hashirama...
> 
> ...



What about Kabuto's statement during the war arc? Is he unreliable too? After all, he's obtained most of Oro's knowledge. 

So again....2 of the most knowledgeable characters in the manga calls it as such, who I am I to argue? 

While Amateratsu might not have the same DC capabilities, it's better against some defenses than Susano slash/Mokuton. Again, highlighting the different properties of each techniques, which you seem to fail to comprehend. 





> Hype alone means jack



How ironic. I already provided examples of how hypocritical people are about hype.



> And the hype he gave yata was proven to be BS seconds later
> 
> And yatas "invincibility" was all but forgotten during the war arc
> 
> Maybe it was retconned out of existence entirely




*Sigh*.....Fodder resorting to using sarcasm to hide their inability to counter my arguments. 





> Or maybe when it clashed with sasukes sword and yamata it broke and itachi couldnt use it anymore
> 
> You have destroyed nothing...
> 
> ...



Already went over this. 



> 1. I said it was *around* a V3s level, do you not know, what a benchmark is? I also went on to say it would be lower than mads V4, to further emphasize a benchmark...
> 
> 2. I said it was Mads V3, which is >any other V3 aside from rikudo V3s



Evidence of Madara's V3 being more durable than Itachi's? Lmao, seriously, I am still waiting......

Again, you have absolutely *nothing.* Kirin's power exceeds anything V3 Mads has tanked so far. 



> 3. Its way less of an illusion than believing the damn thing is TBB+ level when it has nothing indicating anywhere near that level of durability, pretty sure you go so far as to think its Juubidama level....lolwut...



Well, TBB would be a bit more intimidating if it's actually killed anyone noteworthy in this manga.....


Last time I checked, Hachibi who's shown to be far more fragile than Yata/Susano was tanking TBB with his face and grabbing it with his hands. 

He was also tanking Juubi's laser with his tails....the same tails that was sliced in half by Sasuke's chidori/3rd Raikage's finger nukite 



This is getting embarrassing now.  I am actually starting to feel bad owning you so hard.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 16, 2016)

Amaterasu is reputed as the best attack jutsu... but that's a jutsu that is known to exist. A lot of jutsu like the Rinnegan's powers wouldn't be known, in fact, we probably still don't know the scope of what the Rinnegan offers considering each different Rinnegan eye shows a dimension of the power we didn't know existed. Rinnegan jutsu which stand out would be ST, Limbo and you can even say that extension of the Preta Path which Momo uses. 
Then there are other things that weren't said to exist like SPSM, which like Rinnegan and Hagoromo's existence were regulated to myth, which by extension includes the greatest offense and defense: Gedo Dama.

Well then there is also Kamui, which only began existing well after Amaterasu's reputation was established.

Basically, Amaterasu would be considered the strongest because those are powers that characters in the manga actually knew existed. Anything stronger was considered to be mythical or was new during Jiraiya-Kakashi-Naruto's lifetime anyway. 

Trying to use BZ to hype Itachi is quite desperate at this stage. The moment Zetsu was unaware of Susanoo itself should invalidate a number of comments especially when he actually saw Madara and Hashirama's battles, even Indra and Asura's battles. Considering Indra had the Sharingan, he probably was using Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kagutsuchi and Susanoo so Zetsu never seeing those jutsu would automatically be invalidated since he would've already seen them.

Of course, BZ could have been playing dumb, so the Zetsu grapevine wouldn't eventually reveal the truth. Which means screwing around with a lot of details like saying the strongest jutsu people know is the one people know, not the actual strongest jutsu as it'd give away his background. 
Now it can also be a case of certain posters distorting context: Itachi is invincible = with Totsuka and Yata, there's literally nothing Sasuke, or most ninja, could do. How some poster's brain processes that: Itachi is invincible, in general. Then you get threads where there's an attempt to equalise Yata and Gedo Dama with the same context distorting techniques, arguably.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 16, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Amaterasu is reputed as the best attack jutsu... but that's a jutsu that is known to exist. A lot of jutsu like the Rinnegan's powers wouldn't be known, in fact, we probably still don't know the scope of what the Rinnegan offers considering each different Rinnegan eye shows a dimension of the power we didn't know existed. Rinnegan jutsu which stand out would be ST, Limbo and you can even say that extension of the Preta Path which Momo uses.
> Then there are other things that weren't said to exist like SPSM, which like Rinnegan and Hagoromo's existence were regulated to myth, which by extension includes the greatest offense and defense: Gedo Dama.
> 
> Well then there is also Kamui, which only began existing well after Amaterasu's reputation was established.
> ...




Why are you ignoring Kabuto's comment about Amateratsu? He also called Amateratsu the ultimate attack, despite witnessing Madara's showings and many others. Is Kabuto also unreliable? Might as well question everything else he's said in throughout the war arc.




The ones who are desperate are the people who try to differentiate the two defenses  as if the gap between them is heaven and earth despite it both having the exact same properties and descriptions, and equal hype in the manga.

Like I've said before, if it was Rikudou holding Yata Mirror and not Itachi, people would be wanking over it. But since people can't accept that Itachi actually possesses a tool that is the closest to TSB, people can't take it.


Name one other thing that has anything remotely similar to TSB? The only thing close to it is Yata Mirror.




Edit: Also, about your point about every Susano having the same spiritual tools like Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword......where are your evidence? 

Now THAT's an example of you being desperate.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Why are you ignoring Kabuto's comment about Amateratsu? He also called Amateratsu the ultimate attack, despite witnessing Madara's showings and many others. Is Kabuto also unreliable? Might as well question everything else he's said in throughout the war arc.



Why did you not read my post? I literally went through this. I can add a unique thing here that I didn't in the post: Kabuto didn't even know about the Rinnegan's abilities completely, _*we *_don't even know about the Rinnegan's powers completely. Amaterasu could be the most reputed offensive attack, but that's different to actually being the best offensive attack.



> The ones who are desperate are the people who try to differentiate the two defenses  as if the gap between them is heaven and earth despite it both having the exact same properties and descriptions, and equal hype in the manga.



Didn't you try to link blocking physical attack and spiritual attacks = Yin-Yang thus Yata = Gedo Dama?
That's desperate while it clearly ignores the clear fact that the Gedo Dama have Yin-Yang style embedded into them while Yata does not.



> Like I've said before, if it was Rikudou holding Yata Mirror and not Itachi, people would be wanking over it. But since people can't accept that Itachi actually possesses a tool that is the closest to TSB, people can't take it.



Why would Hagoromo need to hold Yata's Mirror when he's got access to the superior Gedo Dama? In fact, the Rikudou Sennin opting for Gedo Dama over Yata's Mirror _*is *_telling.
Ever thought that perhaps people don't accept Itachi has something close to a TSB because he doesn't? Your point as to why Yin-Yang is embedded into Yata's Mirror was not very compelling, in fact, you didn't even have a response to my first post in this thread outlining why.



> Name one other thing that has anything remotely similar to TSB? The only thing close to it is Yata Mirror.



Anything can be because TSB can mould to fit its purpose. It was called a black Jinton for a while because it obliterated everything in its path, hence Hiruzen's comparison. Then we got told it has all the elements within it as well as Yin-Yang.
With Yata's Mirror it was clear that it just takes a nature to block certain jutsu, it becomes water to block fire attacks. It may become a combination of water and fire to block a fire and wind combination. Yin is basically Genjutsu, so it has no defence for that, Yang is what Shikamaru and Chouji's clan use so that counts as blocking a physical attack.

In fact, with the Jinton comparison, a lot of people were saying the TSB was a stronger Jinton. So if we apply Yata's Mirror, we can correctly call it a superior version of Yata's Mirror since it has Yin-Yang style.



> Edit: Also, about your point about every Susano having the same spiritual tools like Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword......where are your evidence?
> 
> Now THAT's an example of you being desperate.



Actually, it still showcases your example of being desperate as I literally took that information off the databook 3.
The only exception to the rules was Madara and Sasuke, who were Indra transmigrants: the same people only capable of getting the EMS. Of course, Itachi showed a lesser version of the shield doing what the manga and databook said... as did Sasuke. Itachi also showed a lesser form of the sword, like Sasuke had done on two occasions. From that you can take that Indra transmigrants have the ability to tailor Susanoo to have what items they want. (Though I suppose anyone talented enough with the MS jutsu can do this, then again Itachi couldn't obtain Kagutsuchi by having superior control over the flames.)

Of course, since even Tobirama's time Kagutsuchi was considered a separate jutsu from Amaterasu, despite being an extension of it. Yet it has more applications than Amaterasu, but probably wasn't as common thus not as well known meaning it obviously wasn't factored in compared to the common Amaterasu. I.E. if characters knew about Kagutsuchi, that would be considered the ultimate/strongest offensive ocular power. That goes into the fact of how points like that are nonsensical when you try to frame them as absolute manga truth.

I'm using information available, whilst you're resorting to distorting manga and databook context... it doesn't bode well for your argument being sound.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I guess Kabuto is also unreliable.
> 
> Let's try another translation?


Clearly he is....he just called amaterasu "the greatest ocular jutsu" which is wrong on just about every level.

1. Sasukes kagutschi is blatantly stronger.
2. Susanoo, as the third and final mangekyou ability, is in actuality the strongest MS tech, and its been confirmed by every user in the manga.
3. "Greatest ocular" implies he isnt restricting himself to the sharingan, and amaterasu is nothing compared to the rinnegans six paths techniques.
4. Not too mention mads and Sasukes unique abilites, limbo and ameno.
5. Tenseigan also shits on amaterasu, as a base V1 jin cloak can no sell it, and tenseigan is a superior chakra mode. Pretty sure tenseigan can also absorb shit. And it gets TSBs, which shit on just about everything MS related.

So to summarize, in the scan you posted, kabuto is so wrong he is practically sig worthy there mate.



Sapherosth said:


> What about Kabuto's statement during the war arc? Is he unreliable too?


Its totally unreliable...as its blatantly incorrect...


Sapherosth said:


> it's better against some defenses than Susano slash/Mokuton.


Its not really a defense at all, its more of a deterrent really, and even then its situational as some people dont give a shit about it, ask AAAA.



Sapherosth said:


> How ironic. I already provided examples of how hypocritical people are about hype.


Hype alone is worthless, yata possess no feats that allow it to justify its own hype, its the prime hiruzen of ninja tools.

Saying "SO6P has nothing but hype and we give him the benefit of the doubt, so you need to do that to yata as well" isnt an argument.

SO6P=an all powerful entity with insane implied feats as well as hype. The man beat a full power kaguya, whjo was stronger than the one team 7 fought, created the biju, created the foundation for freaking ninjutsu although it wasnt his intent, and created the goddamn moon. *Those are feats.* What does yata have along these lines exactly? You know, along the lines of anything tangible whatsoever?

Oh right...it deflected sasukes dead tired ass when he tried to use his base sword on it...how impressive...




Sapherosth said:


> Sigh*.....Fodder resorting to using sarcasm to hide their inability to counter my arguments.


Adorable



Sapherosth said:


> Already went over this.


Not...really?

You just say...

"Nah, an outdated DB says so and BZ said so actually 6 years ago before he was relevant to the plot whatsoever, must be legit"



Sapherosth said:


> Evidence of Madara's V3 being more durable than Itachi's? Lmao, seriously, I am still waiting......
> 
> Again, you have absolutely *nothing.* Kirin's power exceeds anything V3 Mads has tanked so far.


Hirudora isnt far from kirin, i have already said, kirin is likely the stronger technique, but that doesnt mean hirudora cannot be compared.

Mads V3 tanked Hirudora without a scratch.

Itachis V3 was literally atomized by kirin and itachi took damage through his susanoo.

Thats a clear gap.

Also, mads ribcage tanked hits stronger than itachis ever did, byakugo amped tsunade could barely scratch that thing.

Sasukes ribcage (Which should be at minimum equal to itachis as they both possess MS) was vbroken by a back hand from AAAA, while coated in enton, theres a definite gap there.

And from there you simply scale up...

If Mads ribcage>Sasukes ribcage=itachis ribcage, then...

Mads V1>Itachis V1
Mads V2> Itachis V2
Mads V3>Itachis V3

and your dreaming if you think Mads V4 can even be mentioned in the same sentence as itachis V4.



Sapherosth said:


> Well, TBB would be a bit more intimidating if it's actually killed anyone noteworthy in this manga.....


Well, Yata would be a bit more intimidating if it actually did anything/defended against anything noteworthy in the entire manga...

And im the hypocrite, nice.



Sapherosth said:


> I am actually starting to feel bad owning you so hard.


If thats what you call it...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 16, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Mads V3 tanked Hirudora without a scratch.


The Mokuton binding the Hachibi loosened immediately after Madara was hit by the Hirudora, so it heavily implies that he received some damage otherwise he wouldn't have lost control of his justu.


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Ungodly shield, hahaha. I don't see TSB being called "spiritual item" anywhere in this manga. Spiritual.....I'd say that's quite a Godly/Unearthly term.


 Stop reaching.





> So now you're playing the legends card, eh.....No worries, I have a counter for that.
> 
> Early Part 2 people were hyping Rikudou sennin based on old legends. He was hyped as being able to do anything, but he was also said to just be a legend and not real. <- You and many others believed that SOT6P was undisputed the strongest and can do anything without a second thought.


 Hagoromo Otsutsuki has a godlike amount of both hype and feats within the Manga and Databooks, comparing Hagoromo's portrayal to the Yata Mirror is purely idiotic in every meaning of the word. The Yata Mirror's hype is outdated and was never brought up again and it has no notable feats whatsoever. Stop making dumb comparisons, it is hurting your credibility.



> So WHY is it, that when Black Zetsu, someone who is far more qualified than Obito/Onoki to speak about a supernatural/spiritual item, its suddenly BS and inconceivable?
> 
> *I smell double standards here......*
> 
> Oh yes, even if you claim that BZ is a retcon, he is either Kaguya's child or Madara's Will. Both of which are far more credible and qualified to speak about legendary items than anyone else in the manga. It's a lose lose situation for you tbh....


 Here we have the legendary Black Zetsu, the child of Kaguya Otsutsuki who has been around for nearly a millennia calling Tsukuyomi the most powerful genjutsu and Amaterasu the most powerful physical attack. We know for a fact that both of these statements are complete and utter bullshit. This guy has been around since Asura and Indra Otsutsuki's time, has witnessed countless battles between the Senju and Uchiha for several centuries, has even witnessed Hashirama and Madara's battle, and is aware of the Infinite Tsukuyomi yet he's calling Itachi's Tsukuyomi the most powerful genjutsu and his Amaterasu the most powerful physical attack. These are factually wrong statements, that cannot be defended. Face it, Black Zetsu was simply utilized as a wanking tool for the MS during Sasuke and Itachi's fight to hype the battle up for readers. Taking the shit he said seriously during that battle is not only ridiculous, but is simply a desperate attempt for you to wank Itachi.






> Who knows, but at the very least, It's probably the reason why Itachi himself thought that he was unstoppable.
> 
> If the TSB has a weakness, Yata Mirror probably has one as well. It's not that hard to believe.


 Yeah, he *thought* that. Meaning he doesn't think that anymore, because he knows he was wrong. He even told Kabuto he was overrating his abilities. Which is exactly what you're doing right now, but on an even worse level than Kabuto. Not to mention, despite all that wanking Kabuto did over Itachi, he didn't bother to mention the Yata Mirror once, meaning he didn't even acknowledge it. I wonder why...

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Veracity (Dec 16, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> The Mokuton binding the Hachibi loosened immediately after Madara was hit by the Hirudora, so it heavily implies that he received some damage otherwise he wouldn't have lost control of his justu.


What was stopping Madara from just releasing control of that Mokuton on his lonesome?


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## Parallaxis (Dec 16, 2016)

Veracity said:


> What was stopping Madara from just releasing control of that Mokuton on his lonesome?


Why would he though? And it is quite a coincedence because it loosened pretty much right after he was hit.


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## Veracity (Dec 16, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Why would he though? And it is quite a coincedence because it loosened pretty much right after he was hit.



For the same reason he was just chilling at the end of the chapter doing nothing. We also know for a fact that he was chilling there for quite sometime because Edo regeneration is pretty quick ,he wasn't that far away at all, and he was gone for an entire chapter. There's a possibility that when Madara was pushed away he just said fuck it. Either way, we don't have 100% proof of either just speculation. It's kinda just based on your own interpretation.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 16, 2016)

@Sapherosth

 Molding chakra using Yin and Yang energy doesn't even come close to Yin-Yang Release. Only the Uchiha's Yin and the Senju's Yang are constituents for Yin-Yang Release because their chakra comes directly from Hagoromo. In essence, only one with Rikudou's chakra can wield Yin-Yang Release, so the argument you presented is unreasoned.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You've got to be kidding me. That is one of the worst argument I've ever seen in my life.
> 
> 
> Might as well say Hachibi's whirlwind is more powerful than both of those techniques since it has a wider radius than both of them.



 Let's not hyperbolize the Hachibi's feat here when the Hachibi's whirlwind wouldn't even come close to the size of Turtle Island which was dwarfed by Hirudora.


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## Android (Dec 17, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> that makes sense. But Obito specifically said "create". And Hagoromo himself never even referenced it in all his flashbacks


Create it as in how it is today , not create it from zero , that doesn't even make sense or sound right .


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Create it as in how it is today , not create it from zero , that doesn't even make sense or sound right .


Exactly, hagoromo was born on the earth, it therefore existed before him, how could he create something that predates him?

He probably parted seas and split mountains and whatnot with it, and formed the lands into what they are today. But it aint like he legit created matter with it.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ayala (Dec 17, 2016)

I believe the sage did legit nothing what Obito said he did with the sword. How does a human sized man shape the world with a black DNA shaped weapon, it makes no sense.

It's like a legend, a myth, not something that really happened.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 17, 2016)

Yin = Genjutsu
Yang = various jutsu like the Akimichi and Nara clan techniques
Yin-Yang = a jutsu style that Hagoromo and Juubi Jinchuriki used

And we're getting "the mirror blocks spiritual attacks and physical therefore it has Yin-Yang style".


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Create it as in how it is today , not create it from zero , that doesn't even make sense or sound right .


Obito said that shit before Hagoromo even showed up. I think it was just outright bullshit. If it was so incredible/historical, why didn't Madara, who was obsessed with being the next So6P, use it or even mention it? Even Hagoromo himself said nothing about it. It showed him fight the Shinju/Kaguya, but never any sword. Even when Obito himself was using this super powerful sword that created the world (a ridiculous double helix shape at that), he never cut anything and it got immediately owned by the Iso Susanoo Sword. Then disappeared as quickly as it appeared...


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## Android (Dec 17, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Obito said that shit before Hagoromo even showed up


Hago was already mentioned , hyped up , and wanked throughout the manga many times , what are you talking about ?


The All Unknowing said:


> If it was so incredible/historical, why didn't Madara, who was obsessed with being the next So6P, use it or even mentio


Madara didn't use so many things , like the Juubi's TBBs , or the six paths techniques .
I guess that makes them weak too huh ?


The All Unknowing said:


> Even Hagoromo himself said nothing about it


Yeah so ?


The All Unknowing said:


> Even when Obito himself was using this super powerful sword that created the world (a ridiculous double helix shape at that), he never cut anything and it got immediately owned by the Iso Susanoo Sword. Then disappeared as quickly as it appeared...


Did you read the fight ? 
The sword feeds on the user's will , if the user has a strong will , the sword will be strong enuff .
Naruto's managed to break Obito's will , thus weakening the sword , the entire scene was about this point .


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Hago was already mentioned , hyped up , and wanked throughout the manga many times , what are you talking about ?


I said before he showed up. Not before he was mentioned/hyped/wanked. He was obviously wanked, as this world-creating sword was a part of that. 


> Madara didn't use so many things , like the Juubi's TBBs , or the six paths techniques .
> I guess that makes them weak too huh ?


never said it was weak. I'm saying it's irrelevant and not as important as Obito hyped it up to be



> Yeah so ?



so it's unimportant



> Did you read the fight ?
> The sword feeds on the user's will , if the user has a strong will , the sword will be strong enuff .
> Naruto's managed to break Obito's will , thus weakening the sword , the entire scene was about this point .


Yes I did. And from what I remember, it said that it's a sword of the soul and Hagoromo's feelings reside within it. But nothing at all about it's strength being controlled by the user's will...


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## Android (Dec 17, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> How does a human sized man shape the world with a black DNA shaped weapon, it makes no sense.


> Makes no sense 
And people spitting fire , opening S/T portals with their sight , creating a 100 feet tall chakra swordmen that fight for them , and exchange eyeballs like they're exchanging hats makes perfect sense right ?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 17, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yin = Genjutsu
> Yang = various jutsu like the Akimichi and Nara clan techniques
> Yin-Yang = a jutsu style that Hagoromo and Juubi Jinchuriki used
> 
> And we're getting "the mirror blocks spiritual attacks and physical therefore it has Yin-Yang style".


The Nara Clan actually uses Yin Release for their Hidden techniques and it's variants, only the Akimichi Clan is known to use Yang Release. But other than that, I agree with what you're saying.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> Molding chakra using Yin and Yang energy doesn't even come close to Yin-Yang Release. Only the Uchiha's Yin and the Senju's Yang are constituents for Yin-Yang Release because their chakra comes directly from Hagoromo. In essence, only one with Rikudou's chakra can wield Yin-Yang Release, so the argument you presented is unreasoned.




That's false. Every genjutsu is Yin, and anything else physical is Yang. It's not limited to Hagoromo's descendants. I never said Yata Mirror has Ying & Yang release. I said it can stop spiritual and physical attacks, which in essence is Ying and Yang.

The one key difference between Yata and TSB is Yata doesn't have Ying & Yang release to turn all jutsu to nothing, but it can defend against Ying & Yang, in addition to all 5 nature transformations. 

" Yin relates to one's spiritual energy and Yang relates to one's physical energy, and it's necessary to utilise both of these in order to mould  for ninjutsu. *As such, the basis of simply kneading chakra and using techniques is based in Yin-Yang Release. *According to , the  of Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental techniques such as the , , , genjutsu, etc.Furthermore, Yin–Yang Release is suggested to be connected to , a term used throughout the _Naruto_ storyline."



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yin = Genjutsu
> Yang = various jutsu like the Akimichi and Nara clan techniques
> Yin-Yang = a jutsu style that Hagoromo and Juubi Jinchuriki used
> 
> And we're getting "the mirror blocks spiritual attacks and physical therefore it has Yin-Yang style".



Therefore, it blocks it, not that it has it....There's a difference.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Let's not hyperbolize the Hachibi's feat here when the Hachibi's whirlwind wouldn't even come close to the size of Turtle Island which was dwarfed by Hirudora.




What are you talking about.




*Spoiler*: __ 











It's all about viewpoints.



You're telling me that this -


*Spoiler*: __ 












You think Hirudora has a wider radius than this ?
*
The location the Gai fired off Hirudora against Madara's Susano in the above panel was probably this area that Hachibi created. *Hirudora's scale wasn't even close.





That little dot is Hachibi. If what you're saying is true, then Hirudora's size is at least 100 times bigger than Hacibi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The Nara Clan actually uses Yin Release for their Hidden techniques and it's variants, only the Akimichi Clan is known to use Yang Release. But other than that, I agree with what you're saying.



Going by Bee's explanation of the Bijuu Dama you can assume that there's always a ratio of Yin and Yang with certain jutsu. You can say that there's a higher ratio for Yin and a very small amount for Yang for the Nara's clan jutsu, that fact that there's a lot of Yin would probably make it a Yin jutsu. Remember Yin creates and Yang breaths life into it. 

The only exception is Madara's Yin jutsu, though since Senjutsu has Yin, Yang _and _natural energy, Madara probably used some natural energy to give life into that Yin form.



Sapherosth said:


> Therefore, it blocks it, not that it has it....There's a difference.



It doesn't mean it blocks it, the only way that the mirror would have the same properties would be if it also had Yin-Yang style.


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## Android (Dec 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yata is an overwanked , overrated, fearless puny ass shitty weak shield .


Did i say fearless ?? sorry i meant featless


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 19, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Going by Bee's explanation of the Bijuu Dama you can assume that there's always a ratio of Yin and Yang with certain jutsu. You can say that there's a higher ratio for Yin and a very small amount for Yang for the Nara's clan jutsu, that fact that there's a lot of Yin would probably make it a Yin jutsu. Remember Yin creates and Yang breaths life into it.
> 
> The only exception is Madara's Yin jutsu, though since Senjutsu has Yin, Yang _and _natural energy, Madara probably used some natural energy to give life into that Yin form.


I mean, Genjutsu is classified as Yin Release and it has absolutely nothing to do with Yang Release. I'm just going by what the Fourth Databook said, and it said the Nara Clan's Hidden techniques are Yin, and the Akimichi Clan's Hidden techniques are Yang. You can clearly use Yin and Yang, without using both of them at the same time or back-to-back.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 20, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I mean, Genjutsu is classified as Yin Release and it has absolutely nothing to do with Yang Release. I'm just going by what the Fourth Databook said, and it said the Nara Clan's Hidden techniques are Yin, and the Akimichi Clan's Hidden techniques are Yang. You can clearly use Yin and Yang, without using both of them at the same time or back-to-back.



Going by both the manga and databook, pure Yin is just Genjutsu while some Yang is needed to bring to life the illusion from the Yin, so I'd probably say the Nara use probably a tiny amount of Yang. In fact, I believe Shikamaru suggested this during his battle with Tayuya.


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