# Greatest Villains: Discussion Thread



## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2009)

For MH's benefit if nothing else.

The Rounds will begin soon. 'Till then, anything to be said can be discussed here.  

Here are the nominations.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Joker
The Terminator
Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
Darth Vader
John Doe
Anton Chigurh
Scar
Agent Smith
Hannibal Lecter
Michael Myers
Alonzo Harris
Freddy Krueger
Jigsaw
Patrick Bateman 
Tyler Durden
Jason Voorhees


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## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2009)

_*Round 1*

*Joker (The Dark Knight)*

vs

The Terminator (Terminator 1)

*Round 2*

Bill "The Butcher" Cutting (Gang's of New York)

vs

*Darth Vader (Star Wars Trilogy)*

*Round 3*

*John Doe (Se7en)*

vs

Anton Chigurh (No Country for Old Men)

*Round 4*

*Scar (The Lion King)*

vs

Agent Smith (The Matrix Trilogy)

*Round 5*

*Hannibal Lecter (Silence of the Lambs series.)*

vs

Michael Myers (Halloween series)

*Round 6*

Alonzo Harris (Training Day)

vs

*Freddy Krueger (Nightmare on Elm Street series)*

*Round 7*

Jigsaw (Saw series)

vs

*Patrick Bateman (American Psycho)*

*Round 8*

*Tyler Durden (Fight Club)*

vs

Jason Voorhees (Friday the 13th series) _


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## Gooba (Jan 4, 2009)

Aww, I was hoping Round 1 would end up being the final.  Are the brackets set up so Anton Chigurh v Joker could be?

This is going to be an interesting competition, but I see Joker stomping as badly as TDK did the best of the year.


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## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2009)

Gooba said:


> Aww, I was hoping Round 1 would end up being the final.  Are the brackets set up so Anton Chigurh v Joker could be?
> 
> This is going to be an interesting competition, but I see Joker stomping as badly as TDK did the best of the year.



Maybe- I was pretty lazy with this, and just put the rounds in order of the list. I'll probably try and randomise a bit more for the next rounds (though I'm fairly happy with how it has turned out).

By the way, Gooba, could you do me a favour and close the Nominations thread?


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2009)

Bleh, I'll stop our debate anyway because we aren't really getting anyware. 

Anyway, I disagree with a few of the nominations. 

Jigsaw has become, more-or-less, an anti-hero. Even though Darth Vader is an iconic character, I never thought he was that evil.....I'd ray the Emperor was the true villain of Star Wars....or Jar Jar Binks. 

But still, this will be interesting(even though Joker will rapestomp)

Edit: Wait, why does it have to be Joker from TDK? Jason gets "Friday the 13th series", encasing all of his movies. Shouldn't that be the same with Joker, since he's got comics, movies and T.V shows?


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## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2009)

MartialHorror said:


> Bleh, I'll stop our debate anyway because we aren't really getting anyware.
> 
> Anyway, I disagree with a few of the nominations.
> 
> ...



People specifically voted for TDK Joker. These are only film nominations.
And Friday the 13th is, more or less, one single series; TDK is a reboot, separate from any other Batman film series.

Vader was the villain in the first two ones, and stil in the third albeit to a lesser extent. Jigsaw was and kindof is the villain- regardless, I stated at the beginning that anti-heroes were allowed (I suggested Vito and Michael Corleone, as examples).


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2009)

Ah, gotcha. 

Hmmmm, NOBODY VOTED FOR THE EVIL DICTATOR IN "Last King of Scotland". How could I forget that. Bad MH, bad.


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## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2009)

Yeah, Idi Amin was good. But oh well, it happens. The only bad guy up there who actually existed is Bill the Butcher, and even then a good deal is made up.

The list is still pretty strong anyway.  They all would have made my list, if not neccesarily that high up.


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## Chee (Jan 4, 2009)

Round 3 is the one that's going to be hardest for me. I liked them both.


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## masamune1 (Jan 5, 2009)

Firstly:



> Originally Posted by *Vonocourt*
> 
> "Death" is not a him, the picture I showed is just a visual representation of death.
> 
> ...



Death is not a villain. If Joker could'nt kill he would just torture and maim, and Death would be shown as the fried who is'nt around. Patrick Bateman might not actually have killed anyone anyway- the film (and moreso the book) implies towards the end that most or all of the killings were in his head. 

And if they were'nt, he probably would have found another way. Paul Allan, for example, might have been spared the axe, but Bateman could have just drugged him and dumped him in the river or something. Death is an obstacle for a psycho's imagination. 

And now that that's done, I can announce that I will be having my dinner now, and when I'm done I'll be back to start putting up some matches.


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## Angelus (Jan 5, 2009)

Scar from the Lion King is in it, but General Zod is not? Dissapointing to say the least...


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 5, 2009)

John Doe, Patrick Bateman and Scar I'm really rooting for.


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## masamune1 (Jan 5, 2009)

Okay, the 8 Round 1 matches are up.

The polls will close in 5 days, though I will probably start the next rounds before that if they are all easy victories for one party or another.


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## Chee (Jan 5, 2009)

5 days is a lot. I did 2 days for the first round and a lot of people already voted in just that amount of time.


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm rooting for Hannibal Lecter and Scar.



MartialHorror said:


> Ah, gotcha.
> 
> Hmmmm, NOBODY VOTED FOR THE EVIL DICTATOR IN "Last King of Scotland". How could I forget that. Bad MH, bad.



Probably because Idi Amin was a real guy and it would be in poor taste


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## Federer (Jan 6, 2009)

Funny that no one nominated Chucky, although he's not that scary, but I was afraid when I was a kid. :rofl

I have two finals in my head:

Krueger vs. Hannibal
John Doe vs. Krueger

Krueger who enjoyed slaying kids, and is born from a mother who was raped by a  couple dozens of guys (?) and is coming and get you in your dreams, you can't sleep anymore.

Hannibal, well he eats you. :ho
How he talks, what he talks, gives you a weird feeling.

And John Doe, is the wrath of God and has no consciousness.


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

I support Hannibal vs. Scar for these reasons:

Hannibal Lecter is one villain you'd like to sit down to lunch with (as long as he's not the one cooking ). He's witty, he's smart and he'll fuck you up without his heart rate even increasing. The epitome of cool villain.

Scar is different. He is the one villain out of all the aforementionned villains that genuinely makes me angry. He commits the ultimate sin - just like Fredo in the Godfather part II - of betraying his own flesh and blood. We all bicker with our family members, but we do not kill them or betray them for those that would harm them. Scar is portrayed in the song "Be Prepared" as a Hitleresque figure, with the hyenas acting as his little Nazis. When he says "long live the king" and throws Mufasa to his death, no-one is cheering.

Movie psychopaths all have an element of "yeah just kill the annoying teenagers already " and with villains like Darth Vader, Joker, Agent Smith, John Doe, etc you have an underlying love for them and kinda want them to succeed in their evil plans (of course this could also be blamed on the charisma of the actors playing them). However, when scar tells Simba that Mufasa's death is HIS fault, the only thing going through my head is "you fucking prick ".

It may be a cartoon, it may be Disney, but Scar is a bastard of an antagonist. That's why I think he's a good villain.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 6, 2009)

OooO Yes Para, I agree with you with Lector. He's a very smart and interesting man. I would not mind having a deep conversation with him, I'd probably forget about him wanting to eat me. Scar is horrible, he's the only villain out of the ones chosen who actually made me cry, ACTUALLY CRYING. Just thinking about it kinda makes me sad. Mufasa was amazing, I just couldn't believe he was actually dead. And his reign as King was great because no one liked him, he basically reflects what the audience feelings towards Scar was like.

*John Doe*

From the beginning in the manner the people were killed we knew the guy was a genius. The scene where he force the guy to have sex with the huge dildo is just scary, sure we didn't actually see it but the thought of it is scary enough. The guy is without emotions sometimes, but he's so passionate about what he did. Obviously what he did was wrong but he never saw it that way, from his point of view he wasn't special at all he even admitted.All he thought was  what he was doing was blessing and everyone should be grateful.

But the way he treated his victims was the most interesting thing to me personally. Pride; the beautiful woman who had a picture of herself in her living room is a good example. Like Doe said " A woman so ugly on the inside she couldn't bare to go living if she wasn't beautiful on the outside"...It's the way he knows what they are capable of he knows their nature.  At the end he knew David Mills would kill him even with Somerset there with him. From the beginning to the end he was one step of them, his interaction with Mills was great as well until the bitter end.

*Patrick Bateman *

My favourite fictional character of all time, a very normal person on the outside...the whole "looks can be deceiving" should be used here. Unlike John Doe It's the way he kills (or imagines killing people) It's the way he feels about it all. I remember the moment he killed Paul Allen and went over his house to steal his clothes and leave a message on his answering machine the first thought that came to into his head was the fact Paul Allen had a bigger and more expensive apartment then he did. It's just little things like that, that makes his character fascinating. 

He doesn't really care about who or what he kills. Of course most of the time he kills for sexual pleasure but sometimes just for the sake of it. He killed a child to actually find out if he liked it. His character on the outside seems so caring, (example the way he disprove of racism when he's actually racist). His interact with Luis was the best, he was so disgusted with the fact he was in love with him he couldn't bring himself to kill him. When Luis kissed him on his right hand he washed his hands while wearing a leather glove XD

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RODLM_zQdmM[/YOUTUBE]

Mr Bateman is just amazing.


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

You make good points there. The fact that he's so unaffected by his murderous rampages and yet *is* affected by things like someone's apartment being better than his or a font on a card is exactly the opposite of how you'd expect the mind of a psychopath to work. He's similar to Lecter in that sense.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jan 6, 2009)

Im really suprised Keyzer Soze isn't on here. Though i suppose he isn't as much a villian as these guys. 

I'm rooting for John Doe and the Joker.

Though after seeing the comments in the Anton vs Doe thread i think i had better watch No Country for Old Men pronto.


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Im really suprised Keyzer Soze isn't on here. Though i suppose he isn't as much a villian as these guys.
> 
> I'm rooting for John Doe and the Joker.
> 
> Though after seeing the comments in the Anton vs Doe thread i think i had better watch No Country for Old Men pronto.



Keyzer Soze vs John Doe

I don't think I could pick


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

*Stage 2*

*Round 1*

Joker

vs

Patrick Bateman

*Round 2*

Darth Vader

vs

John Doe


*Round 3*

Scar

vs

Hannibal Lecter

*Round 4*

Freddy Krueger

vs

Tyler Durden


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## Gooba (Jan 6, 2009)

I wouldn't rule Anton out yet, it is a tie.

I think for those rounds as is I'd have to vote Joker, Vader, Hannibal, and Tyler.


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Gooba said:


> *I wouldn't rule Anton out yet, it is a tie.*
> 
> I think for those rounds as is I'd have to vote Joker, Vader, Hannibal, and Tyler.



When I put the rounds up, John Doe was winning by one point.

I admit it's very close, but all the other ones are clear-cut and I don't want to drag this out.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 6, 2009)

The Joker is gonna screw over Bateman, I just know it.


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## Chee (Jan 6, 2009)

I miss Anton. WHY WAS HE VOTED OUT!?


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> The Joker is gonna screw over Bateman, I just know it.



Well that makes two of Bale's characters then


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, well, well, this is _extremely_ close. Vader and Doe are tied at the moment, and Joker and Bateman are practically neck-and-neck too. 

Only Hannibal seems to be having no real troubles with his opponent. Tyler Durden is beating Freddy, but there is still room for that to change. And come on- Durden is not more evil than a child-murdering demon that kills you in your dreams.


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright, it's over. It's been roughly 24 hours and Vader has _just_ sneaked ahead of Doe, as his Joker with Bateman.

So, the semi-finals shape up like this:

Joker
Vader
Lecter
Durden

*Match 1*

The Joker 

vs 

Darth Vader

*Match 2*

Hannibal Lecter 

vs

Tyler Durden


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 7, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQx_AN02XuM[/YOUTUBE]

How did The Joker beat this man is beyond me, always knew NF was full of retards.


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## Chee (Jan 7, 2009)

Tight race with the Joker and Bateman, Bateman had a great run though (although _someone_ was bribing ).


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## Para (Jan 8, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQx_AN02XuM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> How did The Joker beat this man is beyond me, always knew NF was full of retards.



Ledger's performance is still fresh in everyone's minds, American Psycho is more obscure than TDK, and Bateman was the protagonist, so while evil and psychotic, he probably doesn't even count as a villain in the first place.


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## Adonis (Jan 8, 2009)

Para said:


> Ledger's performance is still fresh in everyone's minds, American Psycho is more obscure than TDK, and Bateman was the protagonist, so while evil and psychotic, he probably doesn't even count as a villain in the first place.



Villain isn't synonymous with antagonist.

Bateman was a villain protagonist.


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## Chocochip (Jan 8, 2009)

Anton>John Doe by miles. The guy is such a dynamic character, yet subtle about his changes to where only cenrtain people who trie to look at the moral of the movie gets it.

He has the to be one of the single top villians of all time.


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## Para (Jan 8, 2009)

Adonis said:


> Villain isn't synonymous with antagonist.
> 
> Bateman was a villain protagonist.



Okay, I'll concede that there are villain protagonists, but I think you're missing the point. The villain is usually the only worthy adversary to a hero, right? Patrick Bateman just ran amok killing random people the audience don't really give a shit about because he's the protagonist and our sympathies naturally align with him, however fucked up it feels (and we're not even sure whether that was all in his head or not. who here hasn't gone on a murderous spree in their head? ). The Joker was a challenge to even Batman. In my, admittedly likely biased, opinion, that's what makes a true villain.

Bateman is an awesome character and evil as hell, but we're talking greatest villain here, not greatest killing spree caught on film.


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## masamune1 (Jan 8, 2009)

And with that in mind, young Para-wan, we now turn to the grand finale. The *Greatest* villain off all time, as voted for by the NF KN KH public, will be decided forthwith.

_*Finals*

Darth Vader

vs

Hannibal Lecter_

A more predictable outcome I could not have imagined. Still, at least the fears that the Joker would rape were provenunfounded (or exagerrated). Of course, he did quite well, despite my consciously putting him against enemies I knew would give him a run for his money. 

I was hoping for him to face off against Lecter in the end. He would not have won, I would'nt think, but I like the idea better. But I just had to face him off against Vader- I wanted to give him a challenge, and it seems that I did all too well.

But enough of this. The endgame starts *now.*


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## Federer (Jan 8, 2009)

I can't believe no one nominated Travis Bickle (Taxi Driver) or Jack Torrance (The Shining). 

Ain't here Potter fans, where's Voldemort.


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## Para (Jan 9, 2009)

masamune1 said:


> And with that in mind, young Para-wan, we now turn to the grand finale. The *Greatest* villain off all time, as voted for by the NF KN KH public, will be decided forthwith.
> 
> _*Finals*
> 
> ...


Predictable maybe, but there are reasons for that. Those two will get in these kinds of lists forever, and whether it's because they deserve it or whether it's a mixture of fanboyism, hype and nostalgia can be debated until the cows come home. They are, however, two of the first characters that will come to our minds when we say 'villain'.

Thanks for running this tourney btw; good to see more activity in this section, and I loved the debates concerning the definitions of villain and comparisons of some of my favourite films and characters etc. More I say!


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## Ryuk (Jan 9, 2009)

Joker and Vader stomp


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## Chocochip (Jan 9, 2009)

Anton, Joker, than Bateman stands out the most here. Anton was amazing. If you actually watch the movie a couple times and try to think what Anton is thinking when he does or says stuff, than it'll just shock you. Especially at the end when he gets in a wreck right after the girl denies the chance of survival, thus choosing where her life takes her, unlike him.

Joker was great as well. The very fact that he burned the money he stoled was just downright psycho. His biggest fascination was toying with the mind of a human(many psychos are) and he did it in a halarious yet creepy way. He felt real yet more insane as well as crazier than any other villian. I can't imagine many villians existing in the world(such as Bateman) due to their characteristics, but Joker I can. That is, even with his twisted view of life.

Bateman was the most halarious as well as he thought like most Americans, which was why his actions actually seemed reasonable half the times. Of course some scenes overdue the connection of us and Bateman, which kind of makes it unrealistic that such a person would actually exist, it is still kind of fun. The intro the Bateman is great and the way he analyzes certain situations like we would is so precise to where the next time you analyze a tiny situation, you go...woah.


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## masamune1 (Jan 9, 2009)

thegoodjae said:


> Anton, Joker, than Bateman stands out the most here. Anton was amazing. If you actually watch the movie a couple times and try to think what Anton is thinking when he does or says stuff, than it'll just shock you. Especially at the end when he gets in a wreck right after the girl denies the chance of survival, thus choosing where her life takes her, unlike him.
> 
> Joker was great as well. The very fact that he burned the money he stoled was just downright psycho. His biggest fascination was toying with the mind of a human(many psychos are) and he did it in a halarious yet creepy way. He felt real yet more insane as well as crazier than any other villian. I can't imagine many villians existing in the world(such as Bateman) due to their characteristics, but Joker I can. That is, even with his twisted view of life.
> 
> Bateman was the most halarious as well as he thought like most Americans, which was why his actions actually seemed reasonable half the times. Of course some scenes overdue the connection of us and Bateman, which kind of makes it unrealistic that such a person would actually exist, it is still kind of fun. The intro the Bateman is great and the way he analyzes certain situations like we would is so precise to where the next time you analyze a tiny situation, you go...woah.




The finals are on and none of these guys made it.

It's down to Hannibal and Vader.


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## Gooba (Jan 9, 2009)

I think the best Bateman scene is the business card one, it sums up his character and that whole lifestyle perfectly.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 9, 2009)

The reason why Bateman lost is because not as many people have seen the movies.

American Psycho came out 10 years ago and people tend to not remember it(it was an awesome character in an average movie).

Everyone has seen Star Wars and knows of Hannibal Lector.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jan 9, 2009)

Sabakukyu said:


> I Jack Torrance (The Shining).



Your absolutely right - him and Keyzer Soze are what's missing from these match ups. 



Sabakukyu said:


> Ain't here Potter fans, where's Voldemort.


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## Chee (Jan 9, 2009)

Voldemort is a horrible villain.


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## Rukia (Jan 9, 2009)

Voldemort's physical appearance is why he's a failure.  He's supposed to be a good villain since he's ugly?  Give me a break!


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## MartialHorror (Jan 9, 2009)

Actually, I like Voldemort. He's both menacing but also charming. He's also immensely rutheless, killing kids and such.


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## Stalin (Jan 9, 2009)

Palpatine deserves a place.


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## Chee (Jan 9, 2009)

Voldemort is sorta like Vader. Yea, he kills some people here and there but he's only well known for his appearance.


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## masamune1 (Jan 10, 2009)

Ladies and gentlemen, Vader v Hannibal is over, and the Greatest Villain as voted for by the people is:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Both of them




Unbelievable, eh?

And Voldemort is a decent villain. His appearance is irrelevant except to augment his real evil quality: pure despicability. He has few if any reedeming qualities, not even charisma. That is what maks him stand out.


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## Stalin (Jan 10, 2009)

Seriously,why no respect for palepatine?


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