# Isaac Clarke vs Commander Sheppard



## Pintsize (Feb 4, 2011)

Isaac gets all of his toys from DS 2 with all available upgrades. Sheppard cannot be Vanguard, Infiltrator, or Adept. Sheppard cannot use cryo grenades or the cain. Setting is the extremely poor lit sprawl, sans necromorphs. Who wins?

Bonus round: zero gravity activated


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## Shiorin (Feb 4, 2011)

ME1 Shep or ME2? If ME2, does he get research upgrades? Our choice if he's Engineer, Soldier, Sentinel, or will it be all three at once?


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## Pintsize (Feb 4, 2011)

ME 2 Sheppard. He can only be one class at a time. As far as upgrades go, the reason I gave Clarke all upgrades was because some of his upgrades add different functionality to his gear. Upgrade the plasma cutter enough and it lights targets on fire, etc. Obviously, the damage systems won't translate. If upgrades add additional functionality, go nuts.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 4, 2011)

ME weapons have a set muzzle velocity, ie hypersonic, most of the upgrades either increase damage by a set amount. i calced a low ball estimate for shepards weaponry a while back.

it would be easy to accomadate upgrades and change the calc for different weapons.

on a slightly less brain harming note. Engineer or sentinel should stomp isaac easily.

Sentinel should easily control situation with Biotics and tech.
Warp-molecular destruction
Overload EMP and weapon overheat
Cryoblast(i think you banned this though kinda unfair since isaac gets stasis, but shepard isnt allow to freeze).

Engineer pretty much the same. Except he has and explodinge combat drone that follows enemies, and can use incinerate which is easily over 1,750C.

Soldier is just going to crush with superior fire power, and reflexes.

In zero G isaac has a maneuverability advantage but shepard has shielding radar and auto homing missiles so he can still win.

pretty much im going with Shepard in all scenarios.


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## Pintsize (Feb 4, 2011)

The reason I didn't disable stasis was because while Isaac does have some pretty ridiculous reflexes (note the rocket propelled trip from the solar array to the transport hub), he doesn't have slowing down time level of reflexes. Cryo doesn't slow opponents down, it outright freezes them, making them vulnerable to shattering. 

Overload EMP was a talent specifically crafted against enemy shield tech. Isaac doesn't have shields, he has armor. And also, this is ME 2 Sheppard, who doesn't have weapon overheat (not that Isaac's weapons function by thermal clips, anyway). 

Warp and Incinerate were designed to take on armor, it's true. However, it'd be hard to argue that they're more powerful than attacks with similar properties from Isaac's own universe. There are enemies who spit superbly effective acid, which breaks down matter in much the same way warp is described to. As for the effectiveness: there are too many instances to count in both games where necromorph bile is shown freely flowing through steel bulkheads, industrial piping, and various other locations. As for Incinerate? There's one notable scene in the first game where Isaac has to navigate tunnels filled periodically with fire intense enough to instantly burn necromorphs to the point where all that's left of them are the bone ends of their limbs and some of the thicker parts of their torso (remember, these are the same necromorphs that take several applications of _space-age mining equipment_ to just lose one limb, not to mention all of them). While getting hit hurts, it doesn't kill you. While I don't think Isaac could take either of those abilities indefinitely, one application of either certainly won't kill him. 

As for superior firepower (excluding the Cain, which is far above anything else either of them has to offer), I'm unconvinced that Sheppard has a true advantage here. Again, most of Isaac's arsenal was developed to deal with rocks and minerals, which likely included many different metals. I fail to see any non explosive weapon have the destructive power of the javelin gun, and I doubt that even Sheppard's explosive weaponry has the punch of Clarke's contact beam. In addition, Clarke has utility to his weaponry. The javelin gun's projectiles can be made to electrocute nearby targets on a miss, so even if he misses Sheppard is still in danger (the widespread electrical charge is a good way to deal with cover as well). While the force gun doesn't deal a terrible amount of damage, it can fire long-range concentrated bursts guaranteed to knock Sheppard over in quick succession. Finally, all of Clarke's weaponry is supremely accurate, even his rapid fire pulse rifle. The only weapons Sheppard has that are as accurate are the collector beam and his sniper rifles (though he has more natural sway than Isaac when using them). 

The only reliable way I see Sheppard taking Clarke down would be the with detonating Sentinel armor. Other Sheppards could possibly get the jump on Isaac, but with Isaac's detonating proximity mines, it would be very hard to flank him.


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## Lucifeller (Feb 4, 2011)

There are at least two weapons Isaac uses that wouldn't overheat even if Overload (which is stated in the codex to cause firearm malfunctions) was used - the Ripper (which is basically a giant throwing blade that chops you to pieces) and the Contact Beam (which is part energy weapon, yes, but also has the same functionalities of a jackhammer).

In light of how horribly efficient the Ripper is at mutilating even the biggest Necromorphs, letting Isaac have Stasis means Shepard likely gets his limbs surgically removed by a well placed Ripper... which makes it a whole lot harder to fight for him.

(for the record, due to how it works the Ripper would count as a melee attack, not a ballistic weapon... and shields don't do so hot against melee, although the melee options in ME2 admittedly stink, making the Kestrel Armor's awesome bonus kinda useless. WHY does Charge get powered up by biotic power ups when it's a shoulder ram, again? It should count as melee. Stupid game...)


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 4, 2011)

> Overload EMP was a talent specifically crafted against enemy shield tech. Isaac doesn't have shields, he has armor. And also, this is ME 2 Sheppard, who doesn't have weapon overheat (not that Isaac's weapons function by thermal clips, anyway).



overload is a normal EMP, it overheats weapons and disable machines such as mechs..overload overheats weapons in ME2,  and thermal clips dont matter, there were no thermal clips in ME 1 if a weapon is susceptible to overheating it'll be overheated.



> Warp and Incinerate were designed to take on armor, it's true. However, it'd be hard to argue that they're more powerful than attacks with similar properties from Isaac's own universe. There are enemies who spit superbly effective acid, which breaks down matter in much the same way warp is described to.



warp is a space-time anomaly so i doubt its even comparable to the acid, but the flames are a good feat for isaac. if they are hot as incinerate i dont dont think so incinerate reduces enemies, hard suit and all to ashes and the hardsuits can survive reentry mostly intact.  



> As for superior firepower (excluding the Cain, which is far above anything else either of them has to offer), I'm unconvinced that Sheppard has a true advantage here. Again, most of Isaac's arsenal was developed to deal with rocks and minerals, which likely included many different metals. I fail to see any non explosive weapon have the destructive power of the javelin gun, and I doubt that even Sheppard's explosive weaponry has the punch of Clarke's contact beam. In addition, Clarke has utility to his weaponry. The javelin gun's projectiles can be made to electrocute nearby targets on a miss, so even if he misses Sheppard is still in danger (the widespread electrical charge is a good way to deal with cover as well). While the force gun doesn't deal a terrible amount of damage, it can fire long-range concentrated bursts guaranteed to knock Sheppard over in quick succession. Finally, all of Clarke's weaponry is supremely accurate, even his rapid fire pulse rifle. The only weapons Sheppard has that are as accurate are the collector beam and his sniper rifles (though he has more natural sway than Isaac when using them).



that is true about isaacs weapons, but hypersonic projectiles like what ME weapons fire tend to impact with the force of about 1/5 stick of dynamite. The contact beam, one of isaacs most powerful weapons only softens and pounds rocks into smaller pieces. we also have no idea how large the chunks of rock are that it is used on.

Now i assumed the slug was the size of a standard military caliber they call them "small", and 5.65 is the "small" of today

Avenger base damage 10
57.4mm x 9.58mm x 9.58(nato standard) 
5267.96 cubic mm slug 
Divided by 1000 to get 5.26 cubic grams x 19.35(tungsten) for 101.78 gram slug. 
Mass effect weapons fire hypersonic projectiles, the bare minimum would be 2000m/s 

So 101,78 gram slug, fired at 2000m/s impacts with 203560j of force.

its speculation, but at least its a start better then just flinging wild claims around.

that is Shepard starting weapon, and you can powerscale the rest from there.

if we are using shepard most powerful weaponry excluding the cain then powerscaling would be....

Mattock- 5.04x stronger
M-100- 50x stronger
M-5-10.9x stronger
Locust-2.5x
Plasma shotgun-34.7x stronger
Widower-38.63x stronger

so just a little speculation with some facts, research, and math show that shepards weapons are pretty powerful(if youll humor my calcs). with every shot from his mattock being a little bit more powerful then a stick of dynamite(all directed at you instead of omni directional).

So while Isaac has utility and weapons that have prep potential, shepard has the weapons that are striaght forward, but a much better suite in the form of radar, targeting etc....

more about warp to back my claim.



> Disruptor torpedoes are powered projectiles with warheads that create random and unstable mass effect fields when triggered. These fields warp space-time in a localized area. The rapid asymmetrical mass changes cause the target to rip itself apart.



warp ammo is slugs surrounded by the warp effect.



> Further increases damage done by warp ammo, which now tears flesh and metal like a miniature disruptor torpedo. Effective against barriers.



the warp effect is only comparable in game effects.



> (for the record, due to how it works the Ripper would count as a melee attack, not a ballistic weapon... and shields don't do so hot against melee, although the melee options in ME2 admittedly stink, making the Kestrel Armor's awesome bonus kinda useless. WHY does Charge get powered up by biotic power ups when it's a shoulder ram, again? It should count as melee. Stupid game...)



we'll yes and no, the ripper is shot at the the target, which would register with the shielding, then it spins at ridiculous RPMs which would probably register with the shields.

assuming it doesn't, the armor is still tough as all hell, the chest plate can tank hits from ME weaponry and Shepard body was intact when Cerberus found him. 

and about your question, charge gets a boost because the user is enveloped in a biotic field...same principle as the flash enveloping himself in the speed force to attack.

Also i disagree with the comment about the contact beam. energy weapons usually focus thru some type of coil and where there is a coil there is a chance of overheat usually defeated by the addition of clips or cooldown phases. seeing as the contact beam has a clip im assuring thats how it handles heat. 

thats what i see th most in fiction energy weapons. thats just my speculation, but its based on the fact that the weapon infact generates heat and it has to be dealt with.


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## Wan (Feb 4, 2011)

Acid is totally different than a mass effect field that tears things apart with alternating gravitational pulls.

Anyways unfair thread is unfair, giving Isaac all his toys but restricting Shepard.  That's basically admitting that Shepard would win and you have to restrict him just to give him a chance.


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## Lucifeller (Feb 4, 2011)

> we'll yes and no, the ripper is shot at the the target, which would register with the shielding, then it spins at ridiculous RPMs which would probably register with the shields.



It's not shot at the shielding, it's essentially a remote-controlled ship propeller, as far as the damage it does is involved. It acts less like a bullet and a lot more like one of the Emgineer's drones... except it's a smaller target than the drone, and it can mutilate you a lot worse than they can. Drones are pretty much only good against cannon fodder as actual attackers, for anybody who's not crap they just act as decoys that let you take potshots while they get destroyed by the target they are ineffectively pelting.

Hell, on difficulties Veteran and above, only LOKI mechs fail to destroy them before any notable damage is done. And LOKI mechs are practically the ME equivalent of Seiken Densetsu's Rabites.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 4, 2011)

> It's not shot at the shielding, it's essentially a remote-controlled ship propeller, as far as the damage it does is involved.



are we talking about the same gun?

The when you use the ripper it fires a saw blade and holds it out there spinning, if he shoots it at shepard it will hit the shields....i dont know what you mean by "aimed at the shields".


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## Pintsize (Feb 5, 2011)

> that is true about isaacs weapons, but hypersonic projectiles like what ME weapons fire tend to impact with the force of about 1/5 stick of dynamite. The contact beam, one of isaacs most powerful weapons only softens and pounds rocks into smaller pieces. we also have no idea how large the chunks of rock are that it is used on.
> 
> Now i assumed the slug was the size of a standard military caliber they call them "small", and 5.65 is the "small" of today
> 
> ...



Well, those are some impressive numbers... just gotta ask you: where's the empirical evidence behind all that force? 

If the numbers are anywhere near accurate, shouldn't every time you land a fatal blow (assuming the armor provides stability and support until the very last second of life) send the body flying across the room? Don't say that it's just game mechanics: several attacks (vanguard's charge and other biotic abilities), and explosive ordinance do propel corpses. Clearly, some physics system is at work in Mass Effect. I fail to see how anything close to what you're proposing is even halfway logical. 

Addressing supposedly superior radar and targeting systems: those same radar and targeting systems where weapons ave an accuracy stat, and varying degrees of aiming reticle accuracy? It's undeniable that, even when properly aimed, most weapons have a chance of missing. None of Isaac's do.

I was comparing warp to acid not in the sense that space/time manipulation and acid are the same thing, but hat they both seem to excel at breaking down armor particle by particle. 



> Anyways unfair thread is unfair, giving Isaac all his toys but restricting Shepard. That's basically admitting that Shepard would win and you have to restrict Isaac just to give him a chance.



Well, I restricted Sheppard Infiltrator because it's kind of hard to fight something you can't see, adept because of the singularity ability, and vanguard because of his ability to instantly close range (though as to whether that would help him against a man who can stomp and punch through tissue like cardboard is another question entirely ). I dropped the first two because A) it might be genuinely impossible for Isaac to fight against those two or B) we point out that in game cloaking isn't perfect, and that in game even mooks don't get the full effects of seemingly unstoppable abilities as long as they have shields or armor. I generally don't like devolutions into pointless bickering, so I didn't make my thread that way. As for the third... see parenthetical. On the one hand we'd have hard evidence that Isaac is superhumanly strong, and on the other we have lots of fluff saying Sheppard is anywhere from almost as strong to massively stronger, but little in game proof. 

Also... to those of you more involved in ME than I am: is there any scene where concrete proof is given as to how awesome a commander Sheppard is? I don't remember any, and necromorphs, particularly Dead Space 2 necromorphs, are much more mentally challenging than line after line of foes that just come in waves after Sheppard. Considering this, it might be possible that Isaac could play some tactical mind games in the visibility limited Sprawl.


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## Wan (Feb 5, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Also... to those of you more involved in ME than I am: is there any scene where concrete proof is given as to how awesome a commander Sheppard is? I don't remember any, and necromorphs, particularly Dead Space 2 necromorphs, are much more mentally challenging than line after line of foes that just come in waves after Sheppard. Considering this, it might be possible that Isaac could play some tactical mind games in the visibility limited Sprawl.



(Warning: Major Lair of the Shadow Broker spoilers)


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## Pintsize (Feb 5, 2011)

> I also don't know what you mean by necromorphs being more mentally challenging.



Necromorphs will actively flank and ambush you to start with. The cream of the necromorh crop would be stalkers.


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## Axl Low (Feb 5, 2011)

warp is fun 

Slam, reave, incinerate, Tech armor , cryo blasts, shield boosts, armor boosts, biotic barrier boosts, Armor piercing ammo, adrenaline rush time slow downs, neural shock, dominate, warp ammo, shredder ammo, cryo ammo, inferno ammo, disruptor ammo, stasis, TERMINUS BLACKHOLE SHOOTER , lock on rockets, flamethrowers, arc projector, and the avalanche. 

I think some of those might give Isaac some trouble


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## Wan (Feb 5, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> While the clip did show that Sheppard has some considerable muscles, I don't see how that's impressive tactically (which is what I was dissatisfied with his legendary status as a commander for). All I see is the same duck behind cover until your enemy stops firing and then retaliate formula that lasted two games. True, Liara had a nifty idea, but she's not the one under review.



Ah, I misunderstood your question.  Since most strategizing is done while actually controlling Shepard, there's no "concrete" evidence of his strategic knowledge.  By the same token, though, basing Isaac's intelligence on the gameplay behavior of his enemies isn't really valid either.  That comes down to superior AI programming on the Dead Space developers' part.


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## Shiorin (Feb 5, 2011)

In the Shadow Broker mission enemies do make good attempts to suppress you with heavy fire, throw flashbangs, and flank you. I believe that is the most outstanding instance of ME2 enemy tactics. It doesn't seem far from the difficulty of DS necromorphs.

Mordin has already covered the perspective of in-game AI vis a vis subjective interpretation of the respective protagonists' tactical intelligence.


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## Pintsize (Feb 5, 2011)

> By the same token, though, basing Isaac's intelligence on the gameplay behavior of his enemies isn't really valid either. That comes down to superior AI programming on the Dead Space developers' part.



Well, no, not entirely. The level most closely removed from gameplay would be the short cut scenes presented of both characters. In ME, the most impressive thing we see Sheppard doing to the enemy in a scripted event is blowing up some nearby explosives. It's almost the only trick he knows. With Dead Space, not only is every situation different (for example sealing vacuum door while being dragged bodily toward the void vs stasising certain rotating laser generators so he doesn't get sliced in half vs any random number of necromorph scripted events), but he is usually under much more immediate pressure to complete his mission. 

Secondly, you have just the sheer advantage in capability of the necromorphs. With Mass Effect, you have enemies that: take away your shield, (or) take away your armor, (and) take away your health. Granted, the scions and the husks mix things up a bit, but those are only two enemy types. With necromorphs you have enemies that can scale vertical surfaces, leap at you from long distance, can come from the ceiling, can come from the walls and floor, they can grapple you, allowing you to be surrounded by other necromorphs, you have many that can only be damaged in certain areas (brutes and other bosses) and some that when getting close to you just explode. In addition, Isaac usually has to deal with more enemies at the same time, and with far less ammo.

Lastly, there are the objectives themselves. Sheppard's objectives are always 'kill x', with the possible exception of 'don't let x die'. Isaac's vary from killing x to also fix x, find out obstruction for x, navigate this hostile environment, retrieve this part to be used later, find out if there is this spare part, get from point a to b before the enemy finds their way there. Etc. Additionally, Isaac makes up his objectives on the fly, and while Sheppard manages this in several of his missions, it is by no means a universal feature of his outings while Isaac not only does this on every mission we've seen him undertake, but his outings are much longer than Sheppard's, which would make them much more mentally exhausting (to say nothing of physically either). 

All of this non-gameplay evidence suggests that Sheppard isn't as advanced tactically as Isaac is.


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## Axl Low (Feb 5, 2011)

Actually since you control both characters and the enemies are AI [doesnt matter how good]
It's kind of fallacious to say who is better in strategy  

It's guy alone in the dark vs hordes of aliens who can get instant killed at street level threats
vs
Guy who only needs 2 other people to take out an space station prison fighting hundreds of well armed guards and machines 
that can strain the squads's tactics, durability, ability and survival
even more so since everyone is using the same technology for the better part of the game


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 5, 2011)

physicals are in order where physics are due, attacks that require the enemies to be knocked down are knocked down.

ie shockwave, charge, concussive shot.

yet in game missiles and grenades who have much more force the a few hundred newtons simply causes enemies to slid a few feet at best, most of the time they take the explosive to the face and dont budge.

those numbers aren outlandish, a 50 cal sniper has about as much force as a stick of Dynamite its just all penetration.

it probably should knock people down, but besides GP mechanics the hardsuits are power armor.



> Addressing supposedly superior radar and targeting systems: those same radar and targeting systems where weapons ave an accuracy stat, and varying degrees of aiming reticle accuracy? It's undeniable that, even when properly aimed, most weapons have a chance of missing. None of Isaac's do.



its is of no fault to the technology. human error. the expanding reticle simulates recoil, and decreased accuracy due to running etc...it sounds like youre trying to put words into my mouth since youre comment actually has little to do with targeting and the radar is and advantage which isaac has no counter.

anyway isaacs weapons are less accurate(well no less accurate, much less effective range), actually hitting something requires that you can see the laser paint on the target and at some of the ranges that Shepard engages in combat i dont see isaac being able to definitly tell his laser is on him. which is why the military doesnt have visible laser pointers on longer range weapons.

in short.

A. Shepard has a radar that can tell him where isaac is.
B. a weapon system that will paint isaac in a neat little triangle so that shepard can keep track of him, all the while compensating for weather and range, as well as telling him his margin of error.

the only information in there thats speculation is the size of the round. everything else is revealed in game of in books

so it pretty much is game mechanics


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## Shiorin (Feb 5, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> In ME, the most impressive thing we see Sheppard doing to the enemy in a scripted event is blowing up some nearby explosives. It's almost the only trick he knows. With Dead Space, not only is every situation different (for example sealing vacuum door while being dragged bodily toward the void vs stasising certain rotating laser generators so he doesn't get sliced in half vs any random number of necromorph scripted events), but he is usually under much more immediate pressure to complete his mission.


- Saving the MSV Broken Arrow
- Collector Station Ventilation Shaft Run
- Shutting Down David



Pintsize said:


> Secondly, you have just the sheer advantage in capability of the necromorphs. With Mass Effect, you have enemies that: take away your shield, (or) take away your armor, (and) take away your health. Granted, the scions and the husks mix things up a bit, but those are only two enemy types. With necromorphs you have enemies that can scale vertical surfaces, leap at you from long distance, can come from the ceiling, can come from the walls and floor, they can grapple you, allowing you to be surrounded by other necromorphs, you have many that can only be damaged in certain areas (brutes and other bosses) and some that when getting close to you just explode. In addition, Isaac usually has to deal with more enemies at the same time, and with far less ammo.


I want to note that most DS enemies are necromorphs, who are in other words primitive scary monsters. If they didn't have these tactics you would be complaining that they are boring/easy/uncreative. On the other hand, most ME2 enemies use the same tactics and weapons that you do in superior numbers. Thus the only way you could possibly defeat them is if they were hardcoded to have less health, slower reflexes, inferior flanking abilities, etc. I can see how this might contribute to a "Shepard is tactically inferior" mentality. Still,
- Vasir
- The Shadow Broker
- Geth Colossus
- Harbinger's abilities
- Collectors deploying shields



Pintsize said:


> Lastly, there are the objectives themselves. Sheppard's objectives are always 'kill x', with the possible exception of 'don't let x die'.


Hardly, but even if I'm being generous, we have
- Samara's Loyalty Mission
- Thane's Loyalty Mission



Pintsize said:


> Isaac's vary from killing x to also fix x, find out obstruction for x, navigate this hostile environment, retrieve this part to be used later, find out if there is this spare part, get from point a to b before the enemy finds their way there. Etc. Additionally, Isaac makes up his objectives on the fly, and while Sheppard manages this in several of his missions, it is by no means a universal feature of his outings while Isaac not only does this on every mission we've seen him undertake, but his outings are much longer than Sheppard's, which would make them much more mentally exhausting (to say nothing of physically either).


I don't know how you arrived at this, but what Shepard did on Aite seemed pretty remarkable. Also,
- Haestrom
- Legion's Loyalty Mission
- Project Firewalker

I may take the time to find the corresponding videos later, but if you played ME2 and think carefully you should know what I mean.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 5, 2011)

Geth stalkers scale walks and move alot faster then any necromorph except twitchers


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 5, 2011)

> Well, no, not entirely. The level most closely removed from gameplay would be the short cut scenes presented of both characters. In ME, the most impressive thing we see Sheppard doing to the enemy in a scripted event is blowing up some nearby explosives. It's almost the only trick he knows. With Dead Space, not only is every situation different (for example sealing vacuum door while being dragged bodily toward the void vs stasising certain rotating laser generators so he doesn't get sliced in half vs any random number of necromorph scripted events), but he is usually under much more immediate pressure to complete his mission.



so basically, youre trying to downplay shepard because bioware didnt break up the action constantly with set pieces to emphasize certain traits of the character. you cant downplay shepard because ME doesnt have adrenaline pumping set pieces where the character survives unbeatable odds... 

especially when Shepard survives lopsided, suicides situations, where hes surrounded, and out gunned, by mercenaries, military, mech, and AI all day every.



> Secondly, you have just the sheer advantage in capability of the necromorphs. With Mass Effect, you have enemies that: take away your shield, (or) take away your armor, (and) take away your health. Granted, the scions and the husks mix things up a bit, but those are only two enemy types. With necromorphs you have enemies that can scale vertical surfaces, leap at you from long distance, can come from the ceiling, can come from the walls and floor, they can grapple you, allowing you to be surrounded by other necromorphs, you have many that can only be damaged in certain areas (brutes and other bosses) and some that when getting close to you just explode. In addition, Isaac usually has to deal with more enemies at the same time, and with far less ammo.



and how does this fault shepard? what was the point about mentioning how eneimes take shield, help and armor? do enemies not take health on DS?

jumping around? geth stalkers do that.
comming outta vents? shepard has radar.
can only be damaged in certian places? Isaac has no weapon heavy enough to damage them anywhere. so he has to shoot the weak spots.
Exploding? mechs do that.
More enemies? ive yet to see more then 6 necromorphs on screen simultaneously that were a threat to the player, yet they throw waves of babies sometimes but you can wade through them by spamming melee. all the while getting a net gain in ammo.

The point of your post seems to be an attempt at getting people to believe necromorphs are more of a threat then heavily armed military, AI, orginazations, and mercs usually backed by powerful combat mechs. which they arent.

the only way a necromorph hell, 5 or six necromorphs would be a threat to even an alliance soldier would be if they were unarmed, unarmored, did have thier omnitool(which i think its a subdermal implant), and weren't a biotic.




> Lastly, there are the objectives themselves. Sheppard's objectives are always 'kill x', with the possible exception of 'don't let x die'. Isaac's vary from killing x to also fix x, find out obstruction for x, navigate this hostile environment, retrieve this part to be used later, find out if there is this spare part, get from point a to b before the enemy finds their way there. Etc. Additionally, Isaac makes up his objectives on the fly, and while Sheppard manages this in several of his missions, it is by no means a universal feature of his outings while Isaac not only does this on every mission we've seen him undertake, but his outings are much longer than Sheppard's, which would make them much more mentally exhausting (to say nothing of physically either).



how does this fault shepard? how does this help isaacs chances in this fight? all i got from that post is isaac is a good engineer. isaac doesnt make his objectives hes been given them from the time he got out of the straight jacket at most he makes alternatives if something goes wrong or 

and are you seriously using the argument that isaac knows what he has to do next therefore he is smarter then shepard? does shepard not know what he has to do next?
its a pretty bad argument in essence youre saying that isaac is smarter because he has to do more things.

the sad fact is that isaacs engineering skill is matched by shepards omnitool

non of this helps isaac in a gun fight which is the important part. unless this fight takes place in a big puzzle ship where everything has to repaired then that point is just a red herring.

and Shepard would still wins that scenario because of the omnitool.

Isaac isnt trained to fight armed opponents, he has no experience in it.
Most of his gear is totally inferior to shepards
He has no form of shielding whatso ever
he cant get the jump on shepard

Shepard is trained and outfitted for man to man combat. if he catches isaac he guns him down.


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## Lucifeller (Feb 5, 2011)

Regarding enemy intelligence in Mass Effect... it depends on the enemy. Vorcha are worthless storywise - they have barely above room temperature IQ (which is why they haven't become a major threat yet) and generally are regarded as little more than fodder. Batarians stink at direct combat because their specialty is being cowardly and launching sneak attacks on helpless opponents with overwhelming numbers (ie, slaver raids). Anytime they seriously enter a firefight they tend to get plastered by any more competent race. For God's sake, the Human Alliance stomped them into paste with utter ease during the Skyllian Blitz, and back then humans weren't quite as technologically advanced as the rest of the galaxy. They just were better at that fighting thing. The only time batarians are successful at anything is when they are either colonydropping people from a safe distance or attacking someone who considered them allies without warning (ie, what they did to the asari colony).

As for krogan... Battlemasters are admittedly scary. Your average krogan? Unfortunately dimwitted enough that their preferred tactic is 'advance while shooting without taking cover' (Wrex even had some choice words for such a dumb tactic in the first game).

And you fight asari too rarely to get a good idea of how they are. They are supposed to be badass, but the only asari commando I fought in ME2 were rather wimpy in spite (or perhaps because of) their biotic powers - I found geth and husks more dangerous.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 5, 2011)

Does the fact that Shepard has shields factor into this fight or has this been restricted by the OP?
Tactics really won't matter when one universes gear is so far above another universes.


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## Lucifeller (Feb 5, 2011)

I just noticed that the bonus round has zero gravity activated. Unless anyone can provide feats of agility in zero-G for Shepard comparable to what Isaac can do (and off the top of my head the only 'feat' Shep has in zero-G is getting spaced like a nublet after failing to enter a safety module in a timely fashion and getting blown away by an explosion when the SR1 Normandy gets trashed in the ME2 prologue - seriously, Shep, you are halfway inside already, don't stand there like a dumbass and stare at the pretty gigacheese Collector death beam until they space you!), that one's pretty much a lock for Isaac regardless of weaponry levels due to superior mobility. All that fancy weaponry is worthless if the other guy can quite easily superjump out of the way and start taking potshots at you from the ceiling... gotta love those ridiculous magnetic boots Isaac has.


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## Wan (Feb 5, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Well, no, not entirely. The level most closely removed from gameplay would be the short cut scenes presented of both characters. In ME, the most impressive thing we see Sheppard doing to the enemy in a scripted event is blowing up some nearby explosives. It's almost the only trick he knows. With Dead Space, not only is every situation different (for example sealing vacuum door while being dragged bodily toward the void vs stasising certain rotating laser generators so he doesn't get sliced in half vs any random number of necromorph scripted events), but he is usually under much more immediate pressure to complete his mission.





> Secondly, you have just the sheer advantage in capability of the necromorphs. With Mass Effect, you have enemies that: take away your shield, (or) take away your armor, (and) take away your health. Granted, the scions and the husks mix things up a bit, but those are only two enemy types. With necromorphs you have enemies that can scale vertical surfaces, leap at you from long distance, can come from the ceiling, can come from the walls and floor, they can grapple you, allowing you to be surrounded by other necromorphs, you have many that can only be damaged in certain areas (brutes and other bosses) and some that when getting close to you just explode. In addition, Isaac usually has to deal with more enemies at the same time, and with far less ammo.



First of all, the claim that Mass Effect enemies are so simple is false.  First of all, as DarkBlade noted, there's geth Hoppers who jump all over the place.  There's Thorian Creepers, who spew acid on you at close range.  Rachni, who spew acid at you and melee you.  Biotics, who use their attacks to weaken your armor and knock you back.  Engineers, who can overload your weapons and deploy combat drones.  Abominations, which explode in your face.  Krogan, who rush at you to smash your face in.  Geth in ME2 that cloak and use flamethrowers.

All your talk about necromorphs mostly boils down to them being able to attack at a variety of angles, which again is simply superior physics and AI programming on the part of the Deadspace developers.



> Lastly, there are the objectives themselves. Sheppard's objectives are always 'kill x', with the possible exception of 'don't let x die'. Isaac's vary from killing x to also fix x, find out obstruction for x, navigate this hostile environment, retrieve this part to be used later, find out if there is this spare part, get from point a to b before the enemy finds their way there. Etc. Additionally, Isaac makes up his objectives on the fly, and while Sheppard manages this in several of his missions, it is by no means a universal feature of his outings while Isaac not only does this on every mission we've seen him undertake, but his outings are much longer than Sheppard's, which would make them much more mentally exhausting (to say nothing of physically either).



...false.  Shepard's objectives are, in fact, varied.

-: Make your way down a rickety shipwreck that could fall off a cliff at any moment.
-: Figure out how to shut down a malfunctioning AI.
-: Reactivating a radiation shield for a research station.
-Thane's loyalty mission: following a politician without being noticed. (poor mechanics though, I admit -- ME is no Assassin's Creed or Splinter Cell)
-Samara's loyalty mission: drawing out an asari killer and getting her to bring you back to her apartment.

I could go on, if you want more.


> All of this non-gameplay evidence suggests that Sheppard isn't as advanced tactically as Isaac is.



No...all the stuff you listed still boils down to gameplay, whether it's level design, AI programming, or the physics engine.

Edit:  Oh btw



Lucifeller said:


> I just noticed that the bonus round has zero gravity activated. Unless anyone can provide feats of agility in zero-G for Shepard comparable to what Isaac can do (and off the top of my head the only 'feat' Shep has in zero-G is getting spaced like a nublet after failing to enter a safety module in a timely fashion and getting blown away by an explosion when the SR1 Normandy gets trashed in the ME2 prologue - seriously, Shep, you are halfway inside already, don't stand there like a dumbass and stare at the pretty gigacheese Collector death beam until they space you!), that one's pretty much a lock for Isaac regardless of weaponry levels due to superior mobility. All that fancy weaponry is worthless if the other guy can quite easily superjump out of the way and start taking potshots at you from the ceiling... gotta love those ridiculous magnetic boots Isaac has.



Climbing the Citadel Tower.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 6, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> I just noticed that the bonus round has zero gravity activated. Unless anyone can provide feats of agility in zero-G for Shepard comparable to what Isaac can do (and off the top of my head the only 'feat' Shep has in zero-G is getting spaced like a nublet after failing to enter a safety module in a timely fashion and getting blown away by an explosion when the SR1 Normandy gets trashed in the ME2 prologue - seriously, Shep, you are halfway inside already, don't stand there like a dumbass and stare at the pretty gigacheese Collector death beam until they space you!), that one's pretty much a lock for Isaac regardless of weaponry levels due to superior mobility. All that fancy weaponry is worthless if the other guy can quite easily superjump out of the way and start taking potshots at you from the ceiling... gotta love those ridiculous magnetic boots Isaac has.




well the thing is in Zero G isaacs advantage is maneuverability. Shepard's hardsuit is magnetized so he can maneuver normally.

Isaac jumping around isnt going to keep him from acquiring him, then add in the fact that shepard has homing grenades and missiles, and powers that all have this nasty habit of hitting nearly 90 degree turns, add in shepards shielding and armor and id wager he could orientate himself as well as get a good position.


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## Lucifeller (Feb 6, 2011)

DarkBladex96 said:


> well the thing is in Zero G isaacs advantage is maneuverability. Shepard's hardsuit is magnetized so he can maneuver normally.
> 
> Isaac jumping around isnt going to keep him from acquiring him, then add in the fact that shepard has homing grenades and missiles, and powers that all have this nasty habit of hitting nearly 90 degree turns, add in shepards shielding and armor and id wager he could orientate himself as well as get a good position.



Uhh, Shepard's suit has magnetized BOOTS, exactly like Isaac's. The rest of the suit isn't magnetized (otherwise why the hell would his hands have slipped from the IRON WALL of the SR-1 when he was trying to close Joker's safety pod's door? Unless you want to argue the great Commander Shepard is so dumb he forgets to magnetize his own suit, but I like to think he's a lot smarter than that...), and in fact Shepard does noticeably slow down when in zero-G - as pointedly showed when he was on the gutted bridge of the SR1, where all of a sudden he starts moving slower than an advancing Krogan.

And Isaac jumping around is a big freaking deal because the area they are fighting in (as stated in OP) is full of objects and structures that he can zero-G jump behind for cover from incoming weapons. Homing ordinance will just follow Isaac's movement... and ram straight into the wall he hid behind with said jump. I should know, all too many times I found my so-called 'homing' stuff smashing into a wall because the enemy ducked back into cover....

There's a reason why those weapons still require at least a clear line of sight to use effectively - aside from the area of effect heavy weapons Shepard has (Arc Projector and Blackhole Gun, and the Projector needs to first hit a valid target to unleash its AoE effect), if it hits a wall it'll be a wasted power cell.

By the way, unless I'm missing something, the grenades aren't homing (they are just arching, so they can hit behind cover, but enemies can still avoid them - in particular, charging krogan will make you eat shoulder tackle while your grenades harmlessly fly over their charging form) and aren't part of Shepard's default arsenal. They are optional equipment that can only be acquired by clearing an ally's loyalty mission (because they are, in fact, that ally's default EQ), not something he can just pick up/buy and go to town with.

There's also the fact that unlike Isaac, Shepard has a cooldown time that, depending on his build (remember, it's impossible to max out every skill Shepard has, so assuming he has all maxed out skills is silly), will prevent him from spamming everything continuously. In particular, Kasumi's flashbang grenades are fairly worthless in their first two levels - it's with the third and fourth that they shine.

(and frankly, I'm not leaning towards allowing him ally-specific powers, even if he can ingame. It makes allies redundant, and I like having a reason to use them)

This is just my opinion, though. I just don't find Shepard to be all that exceptional equipment-wise, aside from some of the heavy weapons and the (unusable - OP knew what he was doing...) Vanguard's Charge. And there's also the fact that Shepard is a trained soldier, while Isaac is a noncombatant engineer - who do you think is more impressive given how much ass they kick? The soldier who is SUPPOSED to be able to use every weapon he has skillfully, or the engineer who just so happens to be very good at turning mining implements into horrifically lethal weapons?

That's also another reason why I don't give Shepard's shields and barriers much credit here. The stuff he gets hit by is weapons designed to take out people, not to _pulverize bedrock_ into ore to be processed. Generally speaking, a human, even one protected by barriers, will be squishier than, well, a mountain of rock. Especially given how crates conveniently are indestructible cover even when a gunship starts spamming rockets at it... same rockets that can one-two kill Shepard from full health (first rocket kills the shields, second rocket kills you - hi, Kasumi's loyalty mission!).


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 6, 2011)

> By the way, unless I'm missing something, the grenades aren't homing (they are just arching, so they can hit behind cover, but enemies can still avoid them - in particular, charging krogan will make you eat shoulder tackle while your grenades harmlessly fly over their charging form) and aren't part of Shepard's default arsenal. They are optional equipment that can only be acquired by clearing an ally's loyalty mission (because they are, in fact, that ally's default EQ), not something he can just pick up/buy and go to town with.



M-100 grenade launcher, the first heavy weapon in the game



> and in fact Shepard does noticeably slow down when in zero-G - as pointedly showed when he was on the gutted bridge of the SR1, where all of a sudden he starts moving slower than an advancing Krogan.



that 1 set piece were you couldnt run in zero-G vs the entire citadel event in ME1 where shepard had perfect maneuverability. the only thing you were allowed to do in that scene was walk.



> There's a reason why those weapons still require at least a clear line of sight to use effectively -



if theres a wall, between you and an enemy in cover you can throw biotics, incenerate, or shoot the ML-77 over around the wall and hit him.



> Homing ordinance will just follow Isaac's movement... and ram straight into the wall he hid behind with said jump. I should know, all too many times I found my so-called 'homing' stuff smashing into a wall because the enemy ducked back into cover....



depends, the ML-77 can go straight into the air and hit a 90 degree turn the cinematics at on ME2 that obvious, mostly it depends on where isaac is going in relation to when shepard fired.

if the round is chasing isaac thn yea he can fool it, but if isaac is behind cover and shepard has compensated then isaacs done, or if isaac was to try and avoid it to soon hes done.



> The stuff he gets hit by is weapons designed to take out people, not to pulverize bedrock into ore to be processed.



which really doesnt say much especially when shepards weapons are quite possibly packing forces anywhere from 1/5 stick of dynatime to 100x that. The numbers seem absurd but look at what they weapons have to be effective against. A power armored suit that can survive reentry heat and impact almost completely intact(plus its shielded).
Isaacs weapons are formidable but they arent any more powerful then whats in Mass Effect.

Also the widow is a anti armor sniper, made to drop shield heavy armor vehicles. No military grade shield is enough to stop the weapon in ME. that gun is a OHK  against isaac.



> who do you think is more impressive given how much ass they kick?



isaac is impressive for what he has done, but its completely different when you have to fight other trained soldiers. no matter what tricks necromorphs have learned they are still instinctual animals. Isaac would do good in a survival scenario but i wouldnt put my money on him in a gun fight. 



> Especially given how crates conveniently are indestructible cover even when a gunship starts spamming rockets at it... same rockets that can one-two kill Shepard from full health



plz dont use that argument, you kno as good as anyone else that ME is a cover based shooter if all the cover was destructible the game would be impossible. 

Gameplay wise ive taken a rocket with no shield. outside gameplay those are gunships with heavy mass accelerators and anti vehicle rockets. Theyd have to be way stronger then what shepards carrying.



> There's also the fact that unlike Isaac, Shepard has a cooldown time that, depending on his build (remember, it's impossible to max out every skill Shepard has, so assuming he has all maxed out skills is silly), will prevent him from spamming everything continuously.



the cooldown has been reiterated multiple times in ME to be a game balancing mechanic.(well the immediate cooldown) Kaiden explained it in ME 1, and in ME2 we see jack samara and monrith spam biotics all over the place. what happens it that biotics build up electricity and the user has to discharge eventually usually after battle. Outside gameplay theres no cooldown.




> They are optional equipment that can only be acquired by clearing an ally's loyalty mission (because they are, in fact, that ally's default EQ), not something he can just pick up/buy and go to town with.



just like half of links items and powers that he is still allowed in his matches, just like isaacs rivet gun which he is allowed in this match. That argument actually doesnt make sense because you dont buy weapons in ME 2 every weapon but the ones you start with are optional, you find them laying around.

basically what you just said is its ok for Shepard to have these guns in found this level, but its not ok for him to have guns he found on this level. even though hes not obligated to acquire either.

I dont agree with that mind set, if Shepard acquires a weapon and after he gets it its available for his use then it fair game for use in a debate, the same with DLC.


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## Pintsize (Feb 6, 2011)

On tactics: I'll admit I was underestimating Sheppard's mission variety. I still think that Isaac has better tactical know-how, but I will concede that he probably couldn't toy with him. 



> isaac is impressive for what he has done, but its completely different when you have to fight other trained soldiers. no matter what tricks necromorphs have learned they are still instinctual animals.



You do know that every single trained military officer (with the exception of Hammond and Ellie) has had their asses royally handed to them by necromorphs, don't you?

I'm not sure how many videos are available from dead space 2 yet, but I could look if you'd like. 



> which really doesnt say much especially when shepards weapons are quite possibly packing forces anywhere from 1/5 stick of dynatime to 100x that. The numbers seem absurd but look at what they weapons have to be effective against. A power armored suit that can survive reentry heat and impact almost completely intact(plus its shielded).
> Isaacs weapons are formidable but they arent any more powerful then whats in Mass Effect.



Mind doing some calcs for this weapon?


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## Pintsize (Feb 6, 2011)

Also, @Lucifeller: not that Isaac will have room to cut loose like this, but Zero G has changed greatly. At the beginning of the clip is the speed that Isaac moves around normally. The second half of the clip is the speed at which Isaac can move when he wants to really get somewhere. Granted, moving at that speed inside the Sprawl will get Isaac killed, but I just thought you should know. 

That landing feat ain't so bad for Isaac's physique, either. Note the cracked steel and the perfectly fine engineer :ho


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 6, 2011)

> You do know that every single trained military officer (with the exception of Hammond and Ellie) has had their asses royally handed to them by necromorphs, don't you?



actually there have only been a few.

Hammond and ellie didnt know what was going on.
Ishimura didnt have military it had security, and the movie showed that they didnt know what was happening for a long time, and they actually did very well against the necromorphs when they actually became aware of the threat.
The sprawl had security forces it was mostly a civilian station.

But anyway armed forces always get murked by necromorphs because they are ill briefed, ill informed, and not very well armed.

the infection has usually already taken a large number of civilians by the time any armed response is even enacted.



> Mind doing some calcs for this weapon?



javelin gun? ill look it up and see what i can come up with.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 6, 2011)

Well the javelin gun is complicated, i can tell you what youll need to find though.

The javelin gun is made to shatter stones from asteroids for scientific research.

Meaning it deals with stony iron or carbonaceous rocks.
To figure out how much force the secondary fire releases you need to know how much energy it would take to shatter a stone >50lb(because i assume they are shattering them because they are to heavy to carry back).

As for penetration, ummmm lets see with out calc ing it i can tell you its at least equal to a a half stick of dynamite, to shatter it about 1 stick of dynamite or 2.1Mj.

so both the contact beam and javelin would be stronger then the Avenger assault rifle.

I think if isaac could get a few bolts into shepard and detonate them it wouldnt be pretty. but to get thru the armor fast enough he'll have to aim for the weak spots.

Dangerous weapon none the less.

The contact beam might be more dangerous since its pure kinetic energy and shepards shields cant block it.


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## Pintsize (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, not just penetration. Did you see how far it can carry bodies?

It can actually do much farther: at one point I managed to send a body so far I had to sprint for at least 30 seconds, probably longer. If you've played dead space 2, it was half the length of the tunnel in the Ishimura when you encounter 2 brutes. It had JUST started to arc off when it hit the far wall and still managed to penetrate steel. Amazing.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 6, 2011)

well those go hand in hand, it needs force to penetrate material, and it needs force to carry bodies.

either way its got enough to to be dangerous to shepard.


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## Wan (Feb 6, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Uhh, Shepard's suit has magnetized BOOTS, exactly like Isaac's. The rest of the suit isn't magnetized (otherwise why the hell would his hands have slipped from the IRON WALL of the SR-1 when he was trying to close Joker's safety pod's door? Unless you want to argue the great Commander Shepard is so dumb he forgets to magnetize his own suit, but I like to think he's a lot smarter than that...), and in fact Shepard does noticeably slow down when in zero-G - as pointedly showed when he was on the gutted bridge of the SR1, where all of a sudden he starts moving slower than an advancing Krogan.



The slow speed is probably for dramatic effect.  He move just fine when climbing the Citadel Tower.



> And Isaac jumping around is a big freaking deal because the area they are fighting in (as stated in OP) is full of objects and structures that he can zero-G jump behind for cover from incoming weapons. Homing ordinance will just follow Isaac's movement... and ram straight into the wall he hid behind with said jump. I should know, all too many times I found my so-called 'homing' stuff smashing into a wall because the enemy ducked back into cover....



I'm starting to feel that Shepard should be allowed to use his Vanguard Charge for the zero G fight.



> This is just my opinion, though. I just don't find Shepard to be all that exceptional equipment-wise, aside from some of the heavy weapons and the (unusable - OP knew what he was doing...) Vanguard's Charge. And there's also the fact that Shepard is a trained soldier, while Isaac is a noncombatant engineer - who do you think is more impressive given how much ass they kick? The soldier who is SUPPOSED to be able to use every weapon he has skillfully, or the engineer who just so happens to be very good at turning mining implements into horrifically lethal weapons?



Isaac fights for survival against a bunch of alien monster mutants, not that he has much choice.

Shepard picks fights with whole high-tech alien armies and saves the galaxy while doing so.



> That's also another reason why I don't give Shepard's shields and barriers much credit here. The stuff he gets hit by is weapons designed to take out people, not to _pulverize bedrock_ into ore to be processed. Generally speaking, a human, even one protected by barriers, will be squishier than, well, a mountain of rock. Especially given how crates conveniently are indestructible cover even when a gunship starts spamming rockets at it... same rockets that can one-two kill Shepard from full health (first rocket kills the shields, second rocket kills you - hi, Kasumi's loyalty mission!).


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## Pintsize (Feb 7, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Also, @Lucifeller: not that Isaac will have room to cut loose like this, but Zero G has changed greatly. At the beginning of the clip is the speed that Isaac moves around normally. The second half of the clip is the speed at which Isaac can move when he wants to really get somewhere. Granted, moving at that speed inside the Sprawl will get Isaac killed, but I just thought you should know.
> 
> That landing feat ain't so bad for Isaac's physique, either. Note the cracked steel and the perfectly fine engineer :ho



I just realized I forgot to post the youtube video with this.


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## Pintsize (Feb 7, 2011)

> But anyway armed forces always get murked by necromorphs because they are ill briefed, ill informed, and not very well armed.



Yeaaaaaaa....


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 7, 2011)

> Yeaaaaaaa....



that doesnt do much to prove that they were well armed that shows they have vehicles which is to expected from a security force patrolling such a large area. 

Said vehicle is also not very helpful either for obvious reasons id put money on the fact that they didnt shoot up the spawl before the necromorphs were outta control.

Add in the fact that the security forces probably didnt know what they were fighting and how delayed the response probably was just a good old seeker rifle and pulse rifle werent heavy enough.

Police have heavy weapons and armored vehicles, but if you sent them into a warzone with little briefing and the situation was outta control what would you expect to happen?

They always learn to dismember them, but by that point how outta control is the infection? oh yea the ishimura unsalvagable and the sprawl hopeless.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 7, 2011)

> Yeaaaaaaa....



that doesnt do much to prove that they were well armed that shows they have vehicles which is to expected from a security force patrolling such a large area. 

Said vehicle is also not very helpful either for obvious reasons id put money on the fact that they didnt shoot up the spawl before the necromorphs were outta control.

Add in the fact that the security forces probably didnt know what they were fighting and how delayed the response probably was just a good old seeker rifle and pulse rifle werent heavy enough.

Police have heavy weapons and armored vehicles, but if you sent them into a warzone with little briefing and the situation was outta control what would you expect to happen?

They always learn to dismember them, but by that point how outta control is the infection? oh yea the ishimura unsalvagable and the sprawl hopeless.


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## Pintsize (Feb 7, 2011)

> Add in the fact that the security forces probably didnt know what they were fighting and how delayed the response probably was just a good old seeker rifle and pulse rifle werent heavy enough.
> 
> Police have heavy weapons and armored vehicles, but if you sent them into a warzone with little briefing and the situation was outta control what would you expect to happen?
> 
> They always learn to dismember them, but by that point how outta control is the infection? oh yea the ishimura unsalvagable and the sprawl hopeless.





It's been three years. They are very much aware of what necromorphs are at this point, and practically everyone is telling them to cut off the limbs. Yes, the civvies don't know, but everyone with a weapon does. Necromorphs are shown continually to be mercing armed guards since the beginning of chapter one, right when the outbreak started. So you can't say they always had the numerical advantage. 

Also, as far as the the pulse and seeker rifles being inadequate weapons, the pulse rifles alternate fire is explosive grenades and the seeker rifles certainly have the power to amputate limbs when necessary. About the only thing they're ineffective against are Brutes, and those hardly make up the majority of the outbreak.


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

We really don't need to argue tactical intelligence or the efficacy of Shepard's Overload. In fact, this really doesn't need to go any further than Sentinel Shep slamming Isaac with a parabolic homing 1200 newtons every 2.1 seconds from behind cover. Throw in a Tech Armor you don't want to break when Shep is near you and Warp for good measure.

You made some nice blanket restrictions on Shepard, but you probably should've made it exclusively Soldier Shepard versus Isaac.

I will even point out that Shep's advanced training powers can wreck Isaac's day. The defense powers make an especially strong case for Shep staying alive long enough to place a Widow or Geth Shotgun headshot. Reave is doubly effective on armor and causes organic targets to have a seizure while giving Shep a health bonus. Shep's own Stasis can also be a clincher.


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

Shepard gets hit with a mini supercollider. Or a Graviton Accelerator


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

Because, just in case you didn't know, that's what the force Gun and Contact beam are.


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

That's great. Shep has a singularity launcher. Wanna trade fire?


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

Someone didn't read the OP


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

Who, me? The Cain != Blackstorm.


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

He gets hit with a lightspeed Graviton Accelerator


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

Fooooorce gun . Shep totally allows it to happen.


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

Shep is lightspeed? when did this happen.


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

Force gun is long ranged? When did that happen.


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## Kurou (Feb 8, 2011)

Long range, contact beam


short range, force gun. Simple solution


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 8, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tWhNMqCYhQ[/YOUTUBE]

2:55 would that count as a reaction feat?


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

Tech Armor - one size tanks all.


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## Axl Low (Feb 8, 2011)

Terminus weapon solos
Cyro gun solos
Tungsten ammo rapes 
Pull makes Isaac useless
Warp rips him apart
Reave kills him 
Slam will prolly make him see stars
Incinerate would be fun 
CRYO BLAST SAYS FREEZE 

I mean shit
Engineer Shepard can fuck up Isaac
Do know how lame that shit is? 



Raptor Diego said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tWhNMqCYhQ[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 2:55 would that count as a reaction feat?



Yes because it's a cutscene

So Shepard has supersonic/hypersonic reactions 
Oh Noes


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## Lucifeller (Feb 8, 2011)

> that 1 set piece were you couldnt run in zero-G vs the entire citadel event in ME1 where shepard had perfect maneuverability. the only thing you were allowed to do in that scene was walk.



Set piece? Shepard could run just FINE inside the ship when it was burning. Then the door to the SR1 opens and all of a sudden he slows to a crawl. That's not a set piece or drama effect, that's quite obviously him having to anchor himself to make sure he doesn't get spaced.

Also, for the record, Citadel specifics mention that the Keepers always mantain a minimal amount of gravity in it at all times - it's never truly zero-G. It's the whole point of why you end up landing back on it instead of getting spaced whenever you take a small hop.


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## Pintsize (Feb 8, 2011)

> In fact, this really doesn't need to go any further than Sentinel Shep slamming Isaac with a parabolic homing 1200 newtons every 2.1 seconds from behind cover.



You know, call me crazy, but I don't think that'll cut it. Remember the javelin gun, and how it could carry human sized necromorphs dozens of meters before the projectile embedded itself in steel?


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## Axl Low (Feb 8, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> Kay. Explain how bullets are a danger to Sheppard the rest of the game, or how the husks can be a danger to Sheppard at all when they're clearly not projectile speed. I'll be waiting.



game mechanics 
Hence why they are tricky devils when debating 

It's wouldn't really be a challenging game if you dodged every bullet/missile/laser/explosion/biotic or tech attack automatically
Plus enemies are pretty much lock onto at all times unless you cloak

If you dodged everything it would just be more like a movie with a controller

Neural shock is fun.
Point.
Painrape bodyache


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## Pintsize (Feb 8, 2011)

> game mechanics
> Hence why they are tricky devils when debating
> 
> It's wouldn't really be a challenging game if you dodged every bullet/missile/laser/explosion/biotic or tech attack automatically
> ...



There are several cut scenes where Sheppard is threatened with BULLETS. Clearly, Sheppard was just forgetting that he could dodge them. Hope he doesn't forget to breathe.

Eh, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. All you've done is blabber out the names of abilities and wank Sheppard without justification from the beginning.


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## Wan (Feb 8, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Also, for the record, Citadel specifics mention that the Keepers always mantain a minimal amount of gravity in it at all times - it's never truly zero-G. It's the whole point of why you end up landing back on it instead of getting spaced whenever you take a small hop.



Not on the outside of the Citadel.  It's clearly 0 g.  Shepard is shown floating a bit before attaching to the tower using magnetic boots, and when you kill enemies they float away from the tower.


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

Talk calc to me, or you are only convincing yourself. The modulus of elasticity of steel and other materials can be used to obtain the forces involved in Isaac's incidents.

By the way, Incinerate is stated to be plasma, which is easily 10^4 K, while your counterpoint is a "brutal" fire. An oxygen/carbon fire is at most 1773 K, which that fire wasn't judging by color emission.


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## Pintsize (Feb 8, 2011)

Well, I don't care enough to do calcs, and I don't think you should use those as a shield to hide behind why your argument is (empirically) flawed.

As for the fires: could a man more easily survive being burned in the palm or shoulder by a welding torch, or being roasted whole in a pyre? Yes, Sheppard's flame may be hotter, but common sense would tell you which is the more lethal.


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## Wan (Feb 8, 2011)

...both are still ordinary fire.  That analogy fails because you're still comparing fire.


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## Pintsize (Feb 8, 2011)

My god. I mean, despite not knowing that fire IS plasma (which is just the fourth state of matter), you can't even do a simple google search before you post.



Mordin Solus: a new level of ignorant posting.


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## Wan (Feb 8, 2011)

Fine, fine, my terminology was wrong.  So I'll take another approach.

If a man has a fire-resistant suit, will he survive going through a pyre?  Quite possibly.  Would the fire-resistant suit protect him from the welding torch so easily?  No.


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## Shiorin (Feb 8, 2011)

My points are empirically flawed?

Isaac survives a shot from an armor-piercing smart-targeted anti-material sniper rifle? Isaac withstands repeated application of tremendous force? Isaac trivially withstands Warp because he has withstood acid? Isaac has a nebulous advantage in firepower with mining equipment? 

Like you, I don't care enough to crunch numbers, but unlike you, I don't need to resort to strawman arguments in an already lopsided thread. Case in point, nothing that Shepard has will one-shot Isaac and nothing that doesn't one-shot Isaac needs to be considered. Of course.

Incinerate has a 1.2-3.0 meter blast radius. Clearly it's just a welding torch. Reave paralyzes bosses once their armor is destroyed. But clearly Isaac is bosser than a boss. Stasis will allow Shep to set up potshots. Cue non-sequitur statement that it isn't "enough." Shep has armor-piercing ammo against an exclusively armor-wearing foe. Isaac still has more firepower! Shepard was implanted with eezo at the start of ME2 and can receive advanced training from a loyal squad member. Still, the previous three powers are not canon.


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## Pintsize (Feb 8, 2011)

> Fine, fine, my terminology was wrong. So I'll take another approach.
> 
> If a man has a fire-resistant suit, will he survive going through a pyre? Quite possibly. Would the fire-resistant suit protect him from the welding torch so easily? No.



There ya go. And it would probably tear through the armor at the point of contact. But any guarantees that the heat will be hot enough throughout the blast that it'll affect all of Isaac's armor equally? I mean, in game no one has all their armor gone from one incinerate, so their must be heat dispersion with the blast.

Additionally, it's not just a ball of plasma, but a sort of plasma grenade. Lemme quote the wiki.



			
				Mass Effect Wiki said:
			
		

> Incinerate is a tech power available to Engineers and Infiltrators in Mass Effect 2. It is a high-explosive plasma round fired from the user's omni-tool that inflicts damage over time to all nearby enemies and permanently stops their health regeneration.



And you know what Isaac's good at? Catching projectiles. The only question is if the projectile is too fast.

First, I'll bring up Sheppard's tech projectile speed.


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## Wan (Feb 8, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> There ya go. And it would probably tear through the armor at the point of contact. But any guarantees that the heat will be hot enough throughout the blast that it'll affect all of Isaac's armor equally? I mean, in game no one has all their armor gone from one incinerate, so their must be heat dispersion with the blast.
> 
> Additionally, it's not just a ball of plasma, but a sort of plasma grenade. Lemme quote the wiki.
> 
> ...



Ok, sure.  Now you you need to prove that Isaac can catch something as hot as a plasma round without it melting his hand.



> Do you understand the science behind how manipulation of time and space takes away things molecule by molecule? No.
> 
> What I can understand is durability. They were commonly used in ship to ship comment for their ability to take apart, molecule by molecule, the steel frames of ships. You know what else takes apart the steel frames of ships? Necromorph acid.
> 
> Now, unless you can find me some quote that says all the steel used in all the space faring ships in the galaxy is combined with a special alloy that helps resist space time manipulation, I'm going to naturally assume that it's just cheaper to manufacture than the same amount of steel eating acid, or something, and that they both work generally the same.



Acid and warp do the damage differently.  Acid works by breaking down the material at the molecular level.  It reacts with substances, breaking down molecules to release hydrogen ions and negative ions.  If the material doesn't have many ions to release it is more resistant to the acid, regardless of its physical strength.  If the material has ions to release, it will be broken down, and general durability won't help resisting.

Warp works by alternating mass effect fields to create gravitational pulls that tear apart the object.  It's not on the molecular level, and thus nothing like acid.  Resisting acid does not mean Isaac's armor can resist warps.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 8, 2011)

> Ok, sure. Now you you need to prove that Isaac can catch something as hot as a plasma round without it melting his hand.



he means with kinesis



> That's what empirical means: depending upon experience or observation alone.



what we have is mass effect soldier who wear power armor with a million different systems and upgrades that can migitate kinetic forces. 

such as eeze microcores that alter their mass.

you cant seriously base anything on the ingame physics on ME they are selective and there is a million technobabble reasons why.



> I've asked one of the other guys in the thread to do calcs on the javelin, but he didn't do it, and I didn't care to.



i gave you an estimate which would put it around 8x the power of the avenger. no calcs were really needed since i knew what it was for.


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## Axl Low (Feb 9, 2011)

Cryo blast and cryo ammo serious rape this 
Disruptor ammo fucks up with Isaac's systems for funsies 

also the video posted falls under the game mechanics
game mechanics depends on who is playing so some catch it and some dont like you said
So it a fallacious argument 

show use Isaac in cutscenes tanking fire, falls and etc
No gameplay

and the incisor with tungsten would put holes in Isaac
and well it looks like Isaac needs some reflex feats


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## Pintsize (Feb 9, 2011)

> Warp works by alternating mass effect fields to create gravitational pulls that tear apart the object. It's not on the molecular level, and thus nothing like acid. Resisting acid does not mean Isaac's armor can resist warps.





			
				Mass Effect Wiki said:
			
		

> The rapid asymmetrical mass changes cause the target to rip itself apart.



So, perhaps not on the molecular level, but it does seem to be a similar system of damaging ships. 

So, what's your claim then? That since Isaac can resist one ship destroying substance, since this has apparently not enough similarity to warp, that he's not going to resist this one at all, and will be torn apart like tissue paper? 

Where's the proof that all metal in the mass effect verse is made specifically to resist space time manipulation?



> what we have is mass effect soldier who wear power armor with a million different systems and upgrades that can migitate kinetic forces.
> 
> such as eeze microcores that alter their mass.
> 
> you cant seriously base anything on the ingame physics on ME they are selective and there is a million technobabble reasons why.



And as I've already said, that's why most arguments for Mass Effect are empirically flawed. 

As for calcs...



> i gave you an estimate which would put it around 8x the power of the avenger. no calcs were really needed since i knew what it was for.



I'm assuming you're a bit flawed because of this assumption. I don't know how to do calcs, however, and I may be completely wrong. 



> To figure out how much force the secondary fire releases you need to know how much energy it would take to shatter a stone >50lb(because i assume they are shattering them because they are to heavy to carry back).



It would need to be much bigger than 50lb, because engineers typically have kinesis modules. Despite picking up dead people all the time in game (which will obviously be heavier than 50lb), Isaac's kenisis module can fire sufficiently hard, sufficiently sharp materials with enough momentum to embed themselves in the steel hull of the ship.

While it'd be almost impossible to calc the mass of things that are simply too big for Isaac to lift, you can see he easily generates enough force to move a steel wall to the side when running from the giant necromorph in the clip I showed with the gunship.


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## Axl Low (Feb 10, 2011)

Overload so Isaac's Zero Grav control malfunctions  
Isaac cant win
Gameplay =/= feats

also lol at the puker shooting at supersonic speeds
Isaac will catch bullets with his skull


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## Wan (Feb 10, 2011)

Pintsize said:


> So, perhaps not on the molecular level, but it does seem to be a similar system of damaging ships.
> 
> So, what's your claim then? That since Isaac can resist one ship destroying substance, since this has apparently not enough similarity to warp, that he's not going to resist this one at all, and will be torn apart like tissue paper?



Acid =/= the sheer force the Warp exerts.  Resistance to one does not mean resistance to the other.  Isaac's armor won't be any more resistant than the regular armor in Mass Effect.



> Where's the proof that all metal in the mass effect verse is made specifically to resist space time manipulation?



Uh...nowhere.  Your point?


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## ChINaMaN1472 (Feb 10, 2011)

LULz at so many instances of in-game mechanics and gameplay feats used as "valid" arguments.


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## Pintsize (Feb 10, 2011)

> Acid =/= the sheer force the Warp exerts. Resistance to one does not mean resistance to the other. Isaac's armor won't be any more resistant than the regular armor in Mass Effect.



Since when does space/time manipulation count as sheer force?

And, I was under the assumption that Mass Effect supports thought Isaac would be ripped apart instantly since he had never encountered it before. Well, my perceptions of the effectiveness of warp are probably skewed since I never played ME 2 on anything under hardcore difficulty, but I hardly think it'll one shot Isaac. 

Should be useful either way... but will it be useful enough? :ho


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## Wan (Feb 10, 2011)

Since biotics do one of three things:  push, pull, or tear.  Pushing and pulling are just sheer force, and the tearing is a combination of the two.  So, tearing is sheer force as well.


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## Axl Low (Feb 11, 2011)

Pintsize start posting some cut scenes of isaac tanking falls, fire hazards and being ripped molecular levels please :33


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 11, 2011)

> Isaac's armor won't be any more resistant than the regular armor in Mass Effect.



better believe they technobabbled that up to, armor in ME doesnt get wrecked by biotics because of hardening.


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## Axl Low (Feb 11, 2011)

some ME armor is resistant to AR fire and some small arms fire plus resist to tech and biotic powers :33


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## Wan (Feb 11, 2011)

DarkBladex96 said:


> better believe they technobabbled that up to, armor in ME doesnt get wrecked by biotics because of hardening.



Game mechanics.  The same upgrade protects against tech attacks, which should be completely unrelated.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 11, 2011)

> The same upgrade protects against tech attacks, which should be completely unrelated.



no my friend it is not game mechanics.

Description of Hardening.



> Hardened Weave:
> A complex filament network of element zero microcores combined with advanced firewall technology provides protection against both biotic and tech attacks.



It covers both. Bioware is good at making babble.


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## Pintsize (Feb 11, 2011)

Isn't that an upgrade, though? Does base armor have that property?

Just checking.


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## DarkBladex96 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yea, pretty much just not to that lvl.

All the hardsuit have eezo cores and computer systems, hardening is just exactly what it states a hardening(hardening prior defenses like if someone says they are hacking a hardened computer system.) upgrade.

Hardening is the name of the upgrade, but i apply it as a general term to mean armors resistance to biotics and tech... almost all armor has a resistance to both.

Just a table that shows the stats and that most armor does have innate hardening(resistance).


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## ChINaMaN1472 (Feb 12, 2011)

Shepard has the edge in this fight.  I'd say he takes around 70/30.

Spammable biotic/tech attacks > 4 shots of stasis.  If Isaac can land a shot, he'd win though.  TK doesn't seem to useful here without any impalement tools lying around.

Shepard's armor > Isaac's armor.  Based on overall superior technology and attacks it was designed to defend against.

Shepard's weapons ~ Isaac's weapons.  Isaac has some more interesting toys to play with (Ripper, Mines) while Shepard's are a little more conventional.  A shot from the Widow Maker or Contact Beam would pretty much end the fight either way.


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## ShadowReaper (Nov 13, 2012)

Isaac curbstomb - the dude killed Lethian and immorta creatures!


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## ~Greed~ (Nov 13, 2012)

There was no need to bump an old thread like this.


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