# How strong is Itachi, considering Itachi Shinden?



## Bookworm (Jan 23, 2017)

It's all in the thread title. Any stronger? Considering his Tsukuyomi, I think he goes up a bit. At least as far as Uchiha are concerned I think he can possibly beat those others think he couldn't.


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

With shinden feats he essentially gains a shit ton of more base hype (dusting through the academy and breaking records), fire chakra punches which shattered a bolder launched by Kyuubi, and a longer duration than 3 days for Tsukuyomi.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 23, 2017)

He used 70 or 80 years of tsukyomi against izumi


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## Bookworm (Jan 23, 2017)

professor83 said:


> He used 70 or 80 years of tsukyomi against izumi


Considering that Itachi did this, Itachi could of beat Sasuke with Tsukiyomi, considering the amount of time it took Sasuke to break it.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 23, 2017)

Did people actually believe 3 days is the maximum that Itachi can use in the manga or something? 


It was explicitly stated that Itachi can control the time/space inside his genjutsu, so he can theoretically extend it for as long as he wants to and the limits would be Itachi himself. 3 days is nothing. I'd give
him a month

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Parallaxis (Jan 23, 2017)

He actually used literal months and manipulated it into a mere fraction of a second to kill his lover in Shinden if I recall correctly.


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## Bookworm (Jan 23, 2017)

What do you guys think, what is the limit to what Itachi can beat with this Tsukiyomi?


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2017)

Nothing changes. Itachi having high-level Ninjutsu in Base is nothing new, he used relatively high-level Elemental Ninjutsu and Genjutsu in Base. Also most Ninja on Itachi's level have several high level Base-Ninjutsu outside their speciality. Look at Jiraiya, ontop of his Toad-Arts, he also has high level elemental Ninjutsu like Yomi Numa, high-level Fuuinjutsu, etc...

As far as the Tsukuyomi thing goes, it's likely creative license of the author, but even assuming he can extend the duration infinitely it doesn't change anything. If someone can't avoid Tsukuyomi or break it they are going to loose whether it's 3 days or 300 Years, unless i'm missing some sort of scenario here.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He actually used literal months and manipulated it into a mere fraction of a second to kill his lover in Shinden if I recall correctly.


more like decades. He gave her a full life in her Tsukuyomi and she died naturally of old age. So assuming a good 60-80 years old that means Itachi gave her atleast 5 decades of life in the Tsukuyomi world.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 23, 2017)

Trolling said:


> What do you guys think, what is the limit to what Itachi can beat with this Tsukiyomi?


Same kakashi said if itachi wanted he could have killed him in 3 days worth of tsukyomi so does not matter if its 80 or 3 years.

Just playing god and deciding others life is wrong that was what I meant to say it was understood  otherwise.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 23, 2017)

...

He doesnt move

Its the same character just slightly more fleshed out, he might get a few new toys, but it aint anything substantial enough to say he moves up a tier or can now defeat other characters who he previously couldnt

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

Nah CES blue fire punches are enough to solo the universe with coolness


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 23, 2017)

It would be good if we get minato shinden how he learnt ftg from birth and how he solos

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

professor83 said:


> It would be good if we get minato shinden how he learnt ftg from birth and how he solos


Chill, I want that Minato-Kushina Shinden where we get Minato's backstory, his rescue mission for Kushina, and her teaching him all the Uzumaki stuff that would get fleshed out

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Bookworm (Jan 23, 2017)

MS Sasuke and MS Obito would lose IMO to 70 year Tsukiyomi if hit by it. Since it takes time to break out of genjutsu and the time experienced 8516 times faster then the normal Tsukiyomi if my math is right (can someone check my math), they wouldn't be able to break it before being dealt extreme psychological dmg.


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## Jad (Jan 23, 2017)

Oh. When ever I talk about Shiden I get ignored.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 23, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Nah CES blue fire punches are enough to solo the universe with coolness


Itachis hair does that just fine, he dont need no blue fire


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## t0xeus (Jan 24, 2017)

Considering he stalemated Kurama when he was 5 years old, I guess Shinden feats&hype put him on Semi-God tier, slightly above Hashimara and Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 24, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> With shinden feats he essentially gains a shit ton of more base hype (dusting through the academy and breaking records), *fire chakra punches which shattered a bolder launched by Kyuubi*, and a longer duration than 3 days for Tsukuyomi.



So Base Itachi is no longer Asuma level.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 24, 2017)

Is there any book about Sannins or Hiruzen's youth ?! I want to read those. And I wish something about Uzumaki Clan's history too..

By  the way blue fire punches sounds cool  

For the topic, Im agree with Turrin's opinion on it.


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

If anything it actually speaks a lot about how much control and skill he had when a kid. But nothing really changes.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 24, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He actually used literal months and manipulated it into a mere fraction of a second to kill his lover in Shinden if I recall correctly.




You mean DECADES.


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## theRonin (Jan 24, 2017)

Not strong enough to overcome the Neutralizer and Kamui GG.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Rai (Jan 24, 2017)

Invincible+

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gianfi (Jan 24, 2017)

Is shinden canon?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 24, 2017)

IMO it's nice for base Itachi, as some people literally think he's Chunin level without his Sharingan and it's good that the Shinden illustrates that this isn't so (dude did have the highest DB stats of knowledge and proficiency across all ninja fields.) Fire punches that give him super strength and just nice base feats in general do him justice without making him broken. 



Total warrior said:


> Is shinden canon?



Eh, Kishi blessed it and sells it and benefits and illustrates for it, but he didn't write it. Think of it as Naruto's EU.


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## Gianfi (Jan 24, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> IMO it's nice for base Itachi, as some people literally think he's Chunin level without his Sharingan and it's good that the Shinden illustrates that this isn't so (dude did have the highest DB stats of knowledge and proficiency across all ninja fields.) Fire punches that give him super strength and just nice base feats in general do him justice without making him broken.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, Kishi blessed it and sells it and benefits and illustrates for it, but he didn't write it. Think of it as Naruto's EU.


Ok, got it. Thanks


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## Jad (Jan 24, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> IMO it's nice for base Itachi, as some people literally think he's Chunin level without his Sharingan and it's good that the Shinden illustrates that this isn't so (dude did have the highest DB stats of knowledge and proficiency across all ninja fields.) Fire punches that give him super strength and just nice base feats in general do him justice without making him broken.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, Kishi blessed it and sells it and benefits and illustrates for it, but he didn't write it. Think of it as Naruto's EU.


But the thing is, I've never seen anyone who even considers the Shiden novels as canon, or considers the feats a relatively accurate description enough to reference them, notice any of Gai's feats. Ya'll go silent whenever I post them.


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## Platypus (Jan 24, 2017)

Weaker than that Byakugan wielding jounin who one-paragraphed (the novel equivalent of a one-panel) him.


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## Ayala (Jan 24, 2017)

Platypus said:


> Weaker than that Byakugan wielding jounin who one-paragraphed (the novel equivalent of a one-panel) him.



Someone really one-paragraphed the Solo King? Can you please give some more details?


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## Platypus (Jan 24, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Can you please give some more details?


Sure. 

In order to enter Anbu, Itachi had to complete an assignment first (mentioned in chapter 220). Danzo tasked him with the assassination of some guy called Mukai Kohinata, a Konoha jonin-slash-Anbu who they suspected was spying for Kirigakure. Mukai is distantly related to the Hyuga, so he was well versed in Gentle Fist and had a Byakugan in his left eye. Dude took out over 20 Sunagakure shinobi on his lonesome.

Itachi asked Shisui's help and together they defeated a bunch of Kirigakure shonobi and confronted Mukai. Their battle went as follows:

- Mukai activates his Byakugan. Shisui jumps back.
- Mukai blitzes Itachi and rips out his intestines, before his target turns out to be a crow clone.
- Shisui sneaks up from behind and fires off a Gōkakyū.
- Mukai uses his Gentle Fist to split the fireball in two.
- The real Itachi is hiding behind a rock and plans on casting genjutsu on Mukai from afar the moment their eyes meet.
- Shisui engages Mukai in hand to hand combat to try make Mukai's eyes meet Itachi's.
- Shisui activates Sharingan. Mukai makes sure not to look in his eyes by averting his eyes. He sees Itachi with his Byakugan.
- Mukai jumps toward Itachi's whereabouts.
- Shisui shunshins to Mukai and splits his skull by kicking him right in the face. Mukai substituted and is already right behind Itachi.
- Mukai uses Eight Trigrams Eight Palms on Itachi, blocking his chakra and rendering him useless.
- Shisui launches a flying kick. Mukai dodges and grabs Shisui by the neck, starts to strangle him.
- Mukai threatens to crush Shisui's throat in front of Itachi, who gets emotional, his Sharingan "sparkle" as a result. Mukai boasts that visual genjutsu of that caliber won't faze him. 
- Shisui activates his Mangekyō Sharingan. His and Mukai's gazes meet for "less than a thousandth of a second" and Mukai is ensnared in a genjutsu.
- Mukai pulls a kunai from his pocket and stabs himself in the belly because of some kind of jutsu that gets triggered when someone or something tries to fuck with his brain.
- Mukai dies.

All in all, a pretty shitty fight tbh.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 24, 2017)

Platypus said:


> Sure.
> 
> In order to enter Anbu, Itachi had to complete an assignment first (mentioned in chapter 220). Danzo tasked him with the assassination of some guy called Mukai Kohinata, a Konoha jonin-slash-Anbu who they suspected was spying for Kirigakure. Mukai is distantly related to the Hyuga, so he was well versed in Gentle Fist and had a Byakugan in his left eye. Dude took out over 20 Sunagakure shinobi on his lonesome.
> 
> ...




Pretty sure that was like a 9-10 yr old Itachi haha


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## Rai (Jan 25, 2017)

Non-canon


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

Platypus said:


> Sure.
> 
> In order to enter Anbu, Itachi had to complete an assignment first (mentioned in chapter 220). Danzo tasked him with the assassination of some guy called Mukai Kohinata, a Konoha jonin-slash-Anbu who they suspected was spying for Kirigakure. Mukai is distantly related to the Hyuga, so he was well versed in Gentle Fist and had a Byakugan in his left eye. Dude took out over 20 Sunagakure shinobi on his lonesome.
> 
> ...


IIRC Itachi was 11 at the time...He got Shisui to help cause he knew it would be a tough task given the rep Mukai was given (30 less shinobi than Minato took out and lets not forget Tobirama + a Raikage died to Gin/Kin and 20 foddeR). Pretty sure it was also stated that Shisui was using his speed to try and get Mukai into Itachi the whole fight, meaning he wasn't going for the kill and wanted Itachi to finish the job. Kinda meh given 2 years later he took out Oro with 3 tomoe genjutsu and supposedly mastered it at 8.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 25, 2017)

Platypus said:


> Weaker than that Byakugan wielding jounin who one-paragraphed (the novel equivalent of a one-panel) him.



Mukai was a 34-year-old Elite Jonin that zero-diffed 20 Suna/Kiri shinobi by himself, had high levels of genjutsu resistance with the Byakugan, was a skilled Kage Bunshin user, and had a suicide fail-safe against genjutsu control that we've seen countless Kage levels lack. He was kind of a boss. If Sharingan-less kid tachi somehow beat him then that would be Gary Stu bullshit.

And realistically, a ninja like Hiashi would IMO be extremely challenging for any base Uchiha where other Low Kage would not be. He'll see through genjutsu, he'll see feints coming, he'll spin away fire and weapons, and he'll take you to town in hand to hand. Give Hiashi Kage Bunshin too for feints and power, on top of his giant Kaitens and Air Palms? Dude would be Mid Kage IMO.


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## Platypus (Jan 25, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Pretty sure it was also stated that Shisui was using his speed to try and get Mukai into Itachi the whole fight, meaning he wasn't going for the kill and wanted Itachi to finish the job.


Shisui's goal was to lure Mukai's gaze toward Itachi's, so that Itachi could trap him in visual genjutsu. The novel mentions that while jonin Shisui's taijutsu was above average, Mukai's Gentle Fist and overall taijutsu capabilities were still a real threat. Mukai could handily substitute out of Shisui's shunshin+kick combo, dodged Shisui's flying kick toward his "blind side" and subsequently grabbed him by the throat. The Mangekyo Sharingan was their last resort since Mukai was smart enough to not look straight in their regular Sharingan eyes for the required period of time it would take them to trap him in Sharingan genjutsu.

Itachi was 11 at the time as stated by the novel. I already mentioned that this was the mission he was given in order to join Anbu. @Sapherosth

And no, he wasn't Sharingan-less. @Sadgoob


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## Sadgoob (Jan 25, 2017)

Platypus said:
			
		

> - Shisui launches a flying kick. Mukai dodges and grabs Shisui by the neck, starts to strangle him.
> - Mukai threatens to crush Shisui's throat in front of Itachi, who gets emotional, his Sharingan being activated as a result. Mukai boasts that visual genjutsu of that caliber won't faze him.



**


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## theRonin (Jan 25, 2017)

Jad said:


> But the thing is, I've never seen anyone who even considers the Shiden novels as canon, or considers the feats a relatively accurate description enough to reference them, _*notice any of Gai's feats. Ya'll go silent whenever I post them.*_


Because he is not Itachi, so ignore him and his feats no matter how great they are.


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

Platypus said:


> Shisui's goal was to lure Mukai's gaze toward Itachi's, so that Itachi could trap him in visual genjutsu. The novel mentions that while jonin Shisui's taijutsu was above average, Mukai's Gentle Fist and overall taijutsu capabilities were still a real threat. Mukai could handily substitute out of Shisui's shunshin+kick combo, dodged Shisui's flying kick toward his "blind side" and subsequently grabbed him by the throat. The Mangekyo Sharingan was their last resort since Mukai was smart enough to not look straight in their regular Sharingan eyes for the required period of time it would take them to trap him in Sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> Itachi was 11 at the time as stated by the novel. I already mentioned that this was the mission he was given in order to join Anbu. @Sapherosth
> 
> And no, he wasn't Sharingan-less. @Sadgoob


I'm not doubting that Mukai wasn't a threat, I am just noting Shisui was using his full capabilities and IIRC feinted Mukai with his shushin as well. So it's kinda hard to beat someone who's better than you at taijutsu when you aren't aiming for a kill but the slyly position them to someone else.

As for Itachi, do you honestly see any 13 year old bar Kakashi being able to accomplish such? Itachi in the fight was pretty much a year younger than BOS Sasuke and was atleast capable of not getting auto cucked by an Elite Jounin.


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## Platypus (Jan 25, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> **


My bad.

VIZ says:
The hand around Shisui's throat tightened its grip. Mukai was going to crush his Adam's apple.
"Stop!" Itachi shouted, and the sharingan in his eyes *glittered*.
"There's no way that sort of obvious genjutsu is going to work on me," Mukai said, turning his face away from Itachi.
Before the man's eyes was Itachi's friend's face.
"Mangekyo Sharingan," Shisui muttered. The eyes of his friend, now crimson, took on a shape unlike any other sharingan Itachi had ever seen.​
Kiyoitsukikage's translation says:
Mukai poured his strength into the hand that was grabbing Shisui's neck. He intended on smashing his Adam's apple.
"Stop that!" Itachi yelled, and the Sharingan *sparkled* in his eyes.
"There's no way that such a blatant genjutsu'd work on me." Mukai said, and turned his face away from Itachi.
In front of his eyes…
There was his friend's face.
"The Mangekyo Sharingan…" Shisui muttered.
His friend's eyes, who had turned crimson, had a shape different from the Sharingan Itachi had seen so far.​
The raw uses .

It's evident Itachi had his Sharingan activated prior, because his job was to try ensnare Mukai in the Sharingan's visual genjutsu. Getting pummeled and having his chakra blocked by Eight Trigrams Sixteen Palms may have temporarily deactivated Itachi's Sharingan though.


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## Marsala (Jan 28, 2017)

Trolling said:


> MS Sasuke and MS Obito would lose IMO to 70 year Tsukiyomi if hit by it. Since it takes time to break out of genjutsu and the time experienced 8516 times faster then the normal Tsukiyomi if my math is right (can someone check my math), they wouldn't be able to break it before being dealt extreme psychological dmg.



That's not how it works. Uchiha Sharingan users can break Tsukiyomi from the inside in the first few subjective minutes, so they don't experience mental damage. Sasuke and Obito (and Madara and Izuna and Shisui and maybe even Fugaku) could escape Tsukiyomi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2017)

Jad said:


> Oh. When ever I talk about Shiden I get ignored.



 for good reason

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Jan 29, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> for good reason


For some reason I started laughing.


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2017)

Jad said:


> For some reason I started laughing.



I am funny that could be why


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## Bookworm (Jan 29, 2017)

Marsala said:


> That's not how it works. Uchiha Sharingan users can break Tsukiyomi from the inside in the first few subjective minutes, so they don't experience mental damage. Sasuke and Obito (and Madara and Izuna and Shisui and maybe even Fugaku) could escape Tsukiyomi.



What makes you sure that's the case?


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## Marsala (Jan 29, 2017)

Trolling said:


> What makes you sure that's the case?



Because Itachi said that only a Sharingan user with Uchiha blood can break Tsukiyomi, and we saw Sasuke break it with only his regular Sharingan. Sasuke broke it before he experienced much mental damage. Any other Uchiha with top level Sharingan should be able to do the same.


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## Bookworm (Jan 30, 2017)

Marsala said:


> Uchiha Sharingan users can break Tsukiyomi from the inside in the first few subjective minutes, so they don't experience mental damage. Sasuke and Obito (and Madara and Izuna and Shisui and maybe even Fugaku) could escape Tsukiyomi.



There's not enough info to say this is correct. It's unknown how long Sasuke was in Tsukuyomi when he fought him, but it's likely that it was real time considering the circumstances (it wouldn't make sense for Itachi to put him in Illusion that was faster considering the nature of the illusion he put Sasuke in during that fight).


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## Marsala (Jan 30, 2017)

Trolling said:


> There's not enough info to say this is correct. It's unknown how long Sasuke was in Tsukuyomi when he fought him, but it's likely that it was real time considering the circumstances (it wouldn't make sense for Itachi to put him in Illusion that was faster considering the nature of the illusion he put Sasuke in during that fight).



It doesn't matter how fast time was moving; what matters is that Sasuke could break it in a short time *from his point of view*. No matter how many years or centuries Itachi tries to torture him, it's useless if Sasuke breaks it in the opening minutes.


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