# Rank Hebi Sasuke within the Akatsuki



## Kai (May 16, 2015)

My tribute to the hot character of the week. Rank Hebi Sasuke within the Akatsuki.

My ranking:
Obito
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
*Hebi Sasuke*
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu 

Bonus: How many paths of Pain can Sasuke take on and beat simultaneously?


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## Ghost (May 16, 2015)

Obito/Pain/Itachi
Kisame/Orochimaru/*Sasuke*
Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu
Zetsu/Hidan/Konan



> Bonus: How many paths of Pain can Sasuke take on and beat simultaneously?



Depends on knowledge, location and which paths he is facing.


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## Bonly (May 16, 2015)

I noticed you didn't mention Konan in your list Kai, you sexy pig you . 

As for my list:
Orochi
Obito
Nagato/Pain
Itachi
Hebi Sasuke/Kisame
Zetsu
Sasori/Deidara/Kakuzu/Konan
Hidan

As for the bonus I'd say he might be able to take Human Path and Naraka Path at the same time

Edit: I saw that Edit Kai, you can't hide from me


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

I'd probably have something like:

Pain
Obito
Itachi
--
Orochimaru 
Sasori
--
Sasuke
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
--
Konan
Hidan 
Zetsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

I'd staunchly debate for this hierarchy:


Obito (Konan)
Pain
Itachi (Sick)
Kisame
*Sasuke (Hebi)*
Deidara
Orochimaru 
Sasori
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Alex Payne (May 16, 2015)

He is in Tier directly below Monster Trio imo. He can take up to three Paths at once assuming the weak combo(Naraka, Human, Preta/Asura/Animal) and some helpful conditions.


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## Eliyua23 (May 16, 2015)

Obito
Pain
Orochimaru/Itachi
Sasori
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Zetsu
Hidan


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## Deer Lord (May 16, 2015)

Pain
Obito
Itachi
Orochimaru (with hands)
Kisame
Sasori
Kakuzo
Overhyped Sasuke
Deidara
Konan
Handless Orochimaru
Hidan
Zetsu


bonus: can beat two as long as neither of them is deva
three is too much
deva solos


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

My list is the same as Kai's:

Obito
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
*Hebi Sasuke*
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu 

As for the bonus, certainly less than three considering  Sage Jiraiya is far stronger than Hebi Sasuke and struggled to take down three. Kirin could potentially  wipe out a few of them but I feel Hebi Sasuke would get overwhelmed  before it comes into play.

Depending on the combinations of paths Hebi Sasuke faces he'll do better or worse but will still take an L in most scenarios.


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

Sasori being stronger than Deidara is actually canon guys.


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## Kai (May 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasori being stronger than Deidara is actually canon guys.


Sasori > C3 Deidara, and even so I rank Deidara higher in beating a wider spectrum of characters. I've always believed Deidara to have acquired his higher level "C" chakra types (C4, arguably 'C0') after his fight with Gaara based on his statement of his highest chakra type to be "C3" during the Gaara fight.


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

Interesting.


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## Alex Payne (May 16, 2015)

Yeah. Plus the fact that Deidara was talking to enemies he wanted to split. So he might not be entirely truthful. I think that Artists are pretty close in power either way.


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

Thunder said:


> As for the bonus, certainly less than three considering  Sage Jiraiya is far stronger than Hebi Sasuke and struggled to take down three. Kirin could potentially  wipe out a few of them but I feel Hebi Sasuke would get overwhelmed  before it comes into play.
> 
> Depending on the combinations of paths Hebi Sasuke faces he'll do better or worse but will still take an L in most scenarios.



Sage Jiraiya didn't really have trouble taking down those three bodies though. He was entirely uninjured. And while Sage Jiraiya  is stronger than Hebi Sasuke, he's not faster or smarter.

Being evasive and figuring out their abilities is the key in staying alive long enough to accrue knowledge and pick them off. I highly doubt Hebi Sasuke would have serious issues with the 3 bodies.

Especially because he uses genjutsu and a Chidori blade. Pain is strong, but they can't block a Chidori Kusanagi like they can a Sage's fist, and genjutsu is great to counter Preta.​


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sage Jiraiya didn't really have trouble taking down those three bodies though. He was completely uninjured. Pain said Sage Jiriaya would have been a huge threat with knowledge, and Jiriaya did have a lot of knowledge by the end of the clash.​



The fact Jiraiya had to enter Sage Mode to accomplish that feat does speak volumes though, Strat. Hebi Sasuke's strongest transformation is a lesser Sage Mode than even Jiraiya's imperfect version.

Jiraiya said he would've been _killed_ had he not retreated and began relying on guerrilla tactics before things got too dicey. 

On the matter of knowledge. It was Jiraiya's _lack_ of knowledge that lost him an arm. Nagato could be referring to knowledge of _all_ six paths of Pain there. Which makes sense considering he made the comment after all six bodies made an appearance, not before.


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## Alex Payne (May 16, 2015)

J-Man didn't face weakest possible 3-Pain combo though. I have my doubts about Naraka-Preta-Human consistently beating Sasuke.


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## Puppetry (May 16, 2015)

Deidara has used superlatives for 3 techniques: C3, C4, and C0. Two of those appeared in the same battle. Given that, I don't know why anyone would assume he created new techniques in the span between one and the other two. It's even stranger when you consider that C4 was crafted to specifically counter Itachi as a direct result of their scuffle, and that was long before we saw C3. Anyways, my list is:

Obito
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru/Sasori
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Kisame/Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

Thunder, Jiraiya was being cautious of the legendary Rinnegan. He didn't need it in the moment. I don't think anybody seriously believes Animal Path can solo Jiraiya with Sage Mode restricted.

Jiraiya was likewise intimidated by his ninjutsu and sage strength being made useless before Preta. But Sasuke's raiton enhanced kenjutu and genjutsu would not face the same problems.​


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## Alex Payne (May 16, 2015)

^Genjutsu is unlikely to work properly due to shared-vision and bodies being reanimated/controlled by Black Rods.


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> ^Genjutsu is unlikely to work properly due to shared-vision and bodies being reanimated/controlled by Black Rods.



I don't see why paralysis ninjutsu wouldn't work, as it's essentially induced by hijacking a chakra system. Nagato may know what's going on, just like Orochimaru knew he was in a genjutsu , but that doesn't mean Preta won't stay paralyzed temporarily, which is all the window Sasuke really needs.​


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## Alex Payne (May 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see why paralysis ninjutsu wouldn't work, as it's essentially induced by hijacking a chakra system. Nagato may not what's going on, just like Orochimaru knew he was in a genjutsu here, but that doesn't mean Preta won't stay paralyzed.​


I have my doubts about Sasuke's Kasegui being on the same level as Sage-enhanced Gamarinsho. Orochimaru was about to counter Itachi's version. I'd argue Nagato can perform better. Plus there are two other opponents around being constantly aware about what's going on. It isn't going to be completely non-factor. Just far from usual effectiveness. Pain got some solid anti-genjutsu tricks. Jiraiya just happened to have the perfect genjutsu to use against him.


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## Trojan (May 16, 2015)

Oro (ET)
Obito
Pain
Itachi
Kisame
Kakuzu
Hebi Sasuke
Sasori
Deidara
Konan (without the sea of explosions)
Hidan
Zetsu (Depends on, he might be above Obito)


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

*@Strat*

Ultimately, Jiraiya needed area-of-effect genjutsu to defeat those three paths of Pain. Which requires Sage Mode. So the end result is the same. 

And I'm not sure how effective Raiton kenjutsu would be against extendible chakra .


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

That's the thing though. He didn't _need_ that genjutsu. He used it and may have _thought_ he needed it. But we the readers know Pain much better than he did, and that it was within his capability to beat them another way. He blinded one and was successful at separating them from one another. He would've beat them without that genjutsu with the same tactics Sage Naruto used.​


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

Jiraiya flat out stated his ninjutsu and taijutsu were out of the question after testing it out on them. 

Jiraiya knew enough about Pain's abilities to conclude that much. You can make the same argument for many other situations in the manga so it's best to go with what we're _directly_ shown / told by the author.


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

Some people think Orochimaru can beat Kisame. Well, explain that to me please.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Sasuke would be below Kisame and Sasori and above deidara , kakuzu and konan


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## Empathy (May 16, 2015)

Rinnegan Obito
Pain
Itachi
*Hebi Sasuke*
Sasori
Deidara
Orochimaru (around KN4 fight)
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan

I didn't include Zetsu or Taka (the former due to being ambiguous). I mentioned Rinnegan Obito, because I'm unsure if pre-Rinnegan Obito is stronger than Itachi. I wasn't sure whether to put Hebi Sasuke ahead of or behind Sasori; Sasuke could have trouble with _Satetsu Shigure_. Sasuke could also be put under Deidara, as their fight was close and heavily match-up dependent. Sasuke would've been killed without raiton convenience, but Sasuke still had _Kirin_ in his pocket and Deidara's anti-genjutsu eye was another unlucky match-up factor. 

Orochimaru before his fight with Hiruzen would go above Hebi Sasuke and beneath Itachi. Orochimaru by the end of the series would go above even Rinnegan Obito. But Orochimaru around the start of part II was definitely surpassed by Hebi Sasuke, who came directly after the former's 'death.' Basically, Sasori, Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, and Orochimaru are all pretty close; I just don't like having to put them all next to each other and separate by slashes (Kisame and Kakuzu come right after).


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## LostSelf (May 16, 2015)

Pain
Obito
Itachi
Kisame
Sasuke

Didn't include Orochimaru, he left.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That's the thing though. He didn't _need_ that genjutsu. He used it and may have _thought_ he needed it. But we the readers know Pain much better than he did, and that it was within his capability to beat them another way. He blinded one and was successful at separating them from one another. He would've beat them without that genjutsu with the same tactics Sage Naruto used.​



 Sure, though Pain had no knowledge on Jiraiya's Genjutsu abilities or what he was intending on doing, so he merely assumed he counter Jiraiya's Taijutsu and Ninjutsu through normal means.

 Jiraiya retreating implies he needed prep time in order to do so and in an open field, this is highly unlikely. 

 It's not even that. Without the genjutsu, all of the Paths of Pain would have had full knowledge on Jiraiya's abilities and would take extra precautions because let's be honest here, without genjutsu, there would have been no possibly way Animal Path would've been taken out and there would still be Preta Path available to counter his ninjutsu. With summons, one of the Paths would have enough time to free Human Path from Yomi Numa and from there, the whole battle starts all over again except this time, the Paths have more knowledge.


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## StickaStick (May 16, 2015)

Obito (Rinnegan)
Pain
Obito (Single-MS)
Itachi
Kisame
Kakazu/Sasori
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Konan
Hidan/BZ


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## Sadgoob (May 16, 2015)

How would Kakuzu even beat Sasuke? Nagashi counters tendrils, and CS Sasuke can straight tank his elemental ninjutsu like Hidan, or Sasuke just evade them like Kakashi was doing. The , on the other hand, would wreck Kakuzu's day.

Sasuke's resistance to poison and speed and chakra vision would make Sasori go down hard too. A well placed shunshin and Chidori spear on the heart cannister would end it fast. Sasuke's much stronger than Sakura or Chiyo, and even better suited for Sasori.

Manda nor Kirin would be required against those two, but using them would make it that much more overwhelming.​


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## StickaStick (May 16, 2015)

This is a general ranking, no? I agree that Sasuke would be a terrible match-up for him for basically the reasons you stated.


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Deidara seems to be above Kakuzu in general according to Kisame and Pain's comments in regards to Deidara's death when no such thing was done towards Kakuzu.


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## Turrin (May 16, 2015)

1. Obito [Juubi]
2. Orochimaru [Edo Hokage]
3. Obito [Rinnegan]
4. Nagato [Edo or Rikudo]
5. Obito [MS]
6. Kisame [Hoped Up on Mass Hachibi Chakra]
7. Itachi [Edo or Healthier if You Prefer]
8-9. Orochimaru [Part 1] or Sasori
8-9. Orochimaru [Part 1] or Sasori
10. Itachi [Sick]
11. Orochimaru [Some Body Rejection]
12-13. Kakuzu or *Hebi-Sasuke*
12-13. Kakuzu or *Hebi-Sasuke*
14. Deidara
15. Orochimaru [Armless and Bedridden, or WSM if You Prefer]  
16. Kisame [No Additional Chakra] 
19. Hidan

Konan and Zetsu lack the data to be ranked, but they are at least above Hidan, hence Hidan being ranked 19th.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasori > C3 Deidara, and even so I rank Deidara higher in beating a wider spectrum of characters. I've always believed Deidara to have acquired his higher level "C" chakra types (C4, arguably 'C0') after his fight with Gaara based on his statement of his highest chakra type to be "C3" during the Gaara fight.


Except that isn't what Deidara says my man. Deidara's statement retranslated curtsey of me:

Deidara, _"Among my "speciality" It has the highest amount of chakra kneaded into it and as an epic piece of artwork boasts the greatest explosive power"_

Deidara is saying C3 has the greatest explosive power and greatest amount of chakra out of his artwork that's it. C3 has greater explosive power than C4 and could easily have more chakra kneaded into it than C4. C4 was developed to take on Itachi to, so I doubt it was something he only invented after the Gaara fight and nothing indicates much time passed and that Deidara trained his ass off during that time; rather he was off on missions. C0 is probably omitted because it's not part of the normal Kibaku Nendo Techs, even the DB lists it separately


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## Kai (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Except that isn't what Deidara says my man. Deidara's statement retranslated curtsey of me:
> 
> Deidara, _"Among my "speciality" It has the highest amount of chakra kneaded into it and as an epic piece of artwork boasts the greatest explosive power"_
> 
> Deidara is saying C3 has the greatest explosive power and greatest amount of chakra out of his artwork that's it. C3 has greater explosive power than C4 and could easily have more chakra kneaded into it than C4. C4 was developed to take on Itachi to, so I doubt it was something he only invented after the Gaara fight and nothing indicates much time passed and that Deidara trained his ass off during that time; rather he was off on missions. C0 is probably omitted because it's not part of the normal Kibaku Nendo Techs, even the DB lists it separately


Thanks Turrin, but I'm going with njt on this one who translated that line  not only because he was at one point one of the most well known translators, but I looked at both of your translations. Your translation doesn't disprove what is said in njt's. Njt's translation elaborates more on yours and suggests that "C3" was his highest level of chakra.

ūinjutsu _at all_



			
				njt said:
			
		

> _Deidara_:
> from all the things I can make, my "speciality(#18)" has my highest level chakra "C3" put into it.
> its exploding strength is my greatest art achievement.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

If we go based on jutsu which is what ninja are mostly made of 
It's quite obvious the dojutsu trio are well ahead 

Under them Orochimaru sits comfortably . None of the other members or Sasuke can deal with Edo tensei you combine that with Orochimaru other techniques and I don't see how anyone can claim he is weaker than Sasuke or Sasori . 

Sasuke 1 jutsu is kirin which is straight up impractical in combat and can only be used once . You can't be putting someone like that over kisame who can use water shark dance jutsu or daikodan . Just makes no sense 

Sasuke combat ability however is impressive speed wise he is a beast . Overall though he doesn't have a 1 shot jutsu bar kirin to put down the akatsuki basically no member here can actually be killed by it . They either avoid it casually or tank it 

Sasori jutsu are harder to land but are all 1 shot . 
Kisame well water shark dance is a 1 shot jutsu . You drown once caught


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> My tribute to the hot character of the week. Rank Hebi Sasuke within the Akatsuki.
> 
> My ranking:
> Obito
> ...




Itachi / Pain
Obito
Kisame
Hebi Sasuke
Orochimaru / Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan 
Zetsu


Kisame is hard to rank actually, but I ranked him @ his best(enviromental advantage or lots of stolen chakra to use).

edit : As for the Bonus question, I think Sasuke would do as well as Jiraiya. I'd rank them all around equal, Sasuke having a cleare against base Jiraiya and SM Jiraiya may or may not have a slight edge against Cs2 Sasuke. Sasuke would certainly be able to handle the 3 individual paths Jiraiya fought. Though he'd get prison raped once Deva path joins the fray. 
But all in all, I'd rank Kirin higher than anything Jiraiya has, and Manda is a stronger summon than any of Jiraiya's summons.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> Thanks Turrin, but I'm going with njt on this one who translated that line  not only because he was at one point one of the most well known translators, but I looked at both of your translations. Your translation doesn't disprove what is said in njt's. Njt's translation elaborates more on yours and suggests that "C3" was his highest level of chakra.
> 
> Hiruzen praises Minato's speed, and then Tobirama remarks how Minato's "Shunshin" is better than his _right after_ Hiruzen's comment


First off even NJT's translation does not call C3 his best Kibaku Nendo Bomb. It just says again that it has the most chakra kneaded into it and is what he considers his greatest work of art. Beyond that NJT isn't around to explain his translation in this context, I am. I mean I can link you to the Kanji used in that sentence if you want.

------

Plus translation aside. Deidara still has inferior accomplishments to Sasori. Inferior DB Stats. Inferior Techniques/Abilities. Inferior Exp/Knowledge. And Inferior portrayal. It's not like the guy went on to show some enormous growth in strength that would surmount Sasori's vastly superior showings, enough to retcon that statement.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> edit : As for the Bonus question, I think Sasuke would do as well as Jiraiya. I'd rank them all around equal, Sasuke having a cleare against base Jiraiya and S*M Jiraiya may or may not have a slight edge against Cs2 Sasuke*. Sasuke would certainly be able to handle the 3 individual paths Jiraiya fought. Though he'd get prison raped once Deva path joins the fray.
> But all in all, I'd rank Kirin higher than anything Jiraiya has, and Manda is a stronger summon than any of Jiraiya's summons.


Are you kidding me Grimmjow? SM-Jiraiya would rape Hebi-Sasuke, he's literally better at everything.



Kai said:


> How many paths of Pain can Sasuke take on and beat simultaneously?


It depends on paths, but assuming he faces Animal, HG, and Human Realm. The three Paths were countering SM-J-man's CQC which is far beyond Hebi-Sasuke's and his Ninjutsu which is also far beyond Hebi-Sasuke's, At best Hebi-Sasuke could kill one with Kirin, if he lasts that long, but otherwise he's toast. Now if it was different paths he might perform better because his Ninjutsu wouldn't be countered, like if it was Human, Animal, and Ashura, but I still think he'd loose more often than not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Are you kidding me Grimmjow? SM-Jiraiya would rape Hebi-Sasuke, he's literally better at everything.


Jiraiya'd be lucky if he could manage to defeat Hebi Sasuke, thats how close they are.

I'd say Sasuke is more durable, faster and has better more mobility thanks to his pseudo flying ability, and is overall more dangerous and lethal in CQC due to his raiton variants.

Jiraiya has better mid range arsenal, better utility due to kagebunshins and more firepower because of Odaama rasengan(bar Kirin of course). 

Both of their trump cards are hard to pull off, but almost guaranteed to give them the win in most situations. 

Its really hard to rank one above the other imo.


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## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I'd say: 

Pain

Obito/Itachi

Kisame
Hebi Sasuke / Orochimaru
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu

Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya'd be lucky if he could manage to defeat Hebi Sasuke, thats how close they are.
> 
> I'd say Sasuke is more durable, faster and has better more mobility thanks to his pseudo flying ability, and is overall more dangerous and lethal in CQC due to his raiton variants.
> 
> ...


Are you talking Base-Jiraiya or SM-Jiriaya


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## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

He's talking about Sage Jiraiya, the trump card being Gamarinsho.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Well, Hebi Sasuke can provide some defense against SM Jiraiya due to the Toad < Snake rule. However, SM Jiraiya outclasses Sasuke in Ninjutsu and Taijutsu and with Ma and Pa, the snakes are easily disposed of via Ma's Tongue and Yomi Numa or by Jiraiya's ninjutsu combinations with Bunta which Hebi Sasuke lacks this with any of his Snake Summons.

 I don't understand how SM Jiraiya loses to Hebi Sasuke.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He's talking about Sage Jiraiya, the trump card being Gamarinsho.


I pray this is not the case, considering SM-Jiraiya is literally better at EVERYTHING, than Hebi-Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I pray this is not the case, considering SM-Jiraiya is literally better at EVERYTHING, than Hebi-Sasuke.



 Grim arguing that CS2 Hebi Sasuke can clash with SM Jiraiya in Taijutsu is ridiculous considering Jiraiya's 4.5 in Taijutsu compared to Sasuke's 3.5 in Taijutsu along with the fact that Sage Mode users have far better feats physically compared to CS2 Enhancements. 

 I don't understand how Sasuke can even survive CQC.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Grim arguing that CS2 Hebi Sasuke can clash with SM Jiraiya in Taijutsu is ridiculous considering Jiraiya's 4.5 in Taijutsu compared to Sasuke's 3.5 in Taijutsu along with the fact that Sage Mode users have far better feats physically compared to CS2 Enhancements.
> 
> I don't understand how Sasuke can even survive CQC.


Base-Jiraiya is more close to Hebi-Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Base-Jiraiya is more close to Hebi-Sasuke.



 I certainly won't deny that. I just hope it was clear that I was talking about SM Jiraiya though the term "Sage Mode users" could be a bit confusing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I pray this is not the case, considering SM-Jiraiya is literally better at EVERYTHING, than Hebi-Sasuke.



SM Jiraiya obviously, base Jiraiya wouldn't last more than a minute against Sasuke.


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## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

Jiraiya gives Pain trouble.

Loses in under a minute to one of the weakest Sasuke incarnations.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

Base Jirayia would most likely pull high difficulty battle over Hebi Sasuke. Saying he wouldn't last a minute against him? What? I'm pretty sure you are literally the only member on these forums that thinks that.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> SM Jiraiya obviously, base Jiraiya wouldn't last more than a minute against Sasuke.



 How is this possible? He literally survived against KN4 Naruto, the same one who can overwhelm Orochimaru which Sasuke seemed to have felt inferior to.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya gives Pain trouble.
> 
> Loses in under a minute to one of the weakest Sasuke incarnations.



If you mean getting prison raped by "giving trouble", then I'll agree. And oh, that was SM Jiraiya.



NarutoX28 said:


> How is this possible? He literally survived against KN4 Naruto, the same one who can overwhelm Orochimaru which Sasuke seemed to have felt inferior to.



No offense but this has to be the shittiest logic I've seen in a while in BD.


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## David (May 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> How many paths of Pain can Sasuke take on and beat simultaneously?



Let's take the 4 weakest realms, uh

Hell
Hungry Ghost
Human
Animal

With no knowledge, I think it would be a pretty evenly-matched fight, just because of how much trouble HM Jiraiya was having landing a hit due to their shared vision, and because I do get the vibe that Nagato can counter most Genjutsus thanks to his Rinnegan, chakra control and chakra rods.  Jiraiya's was just exceptionally powerful.

I'm also one who believes that Hell Realm's losing to Konohamaru was just an inconsistency because they were sent into a Great Ninja Village full of Chuunin and Jounin and did exceptionally well.  If you're going to pull out the "Hell Realm was beaten by Konohamaru" card, I'm going to pull out the "Rasenshuriken covered the Chibaku Tensei crater in exactly 1 second" card.  We both know those are huge inconsistencies/instances of PnJ so don't bring them up.

Moreover, HM Jiraiya acknowledged how hard it was to fight 3 of the bodies and that if he screwed up, he would die, even in Sage Mode.  If they weren't Jounin-level bodies, he would never have said that.

So I do think that that each pain body has at least low-Elite Jounin level Taijutsu and speed, with some bodies being faster and stronger than others.  If I were to rate the bodies on their speed, it would be something like this:

Deva/Human/Asura
Preta
Animal/Hell Realm

Anyways, let's put these 4 bodies against Sasuke:

Hell
Hungry Ghost
Human
Animal

- Human Realm was always displayed as very fast (I will provide proof if necessary but won't bother unless asked).
- Hungry Ghost Realm intercepted Rasenshuriken.
- Hell Realm was no-diffing his way through Konoha ninja.
- Animal Realm actually never displayed speed feats, but given that (s)he's a Pain body, I'd give her/him at least low-Elite Jounin speed.

If you believe that Nagato would send out less-than-Jounin level bodies that only have CQC abilities (like Hell Realm and Hungry Ghost Realm) wearing Akatsuki cloaks that couldn't beat your average Jounin in Taijutsu into Konoha, which has its share of Chuunin and Jounin, I don't know what to say.

Anyways, fiirst off, Sasuke would have to fight 4 ninjas with at least Jounin level speed at once and there would be no blind spots.  These guys were all have Nagato's reaction speed and were all reacting to HM Jiraiya thanks to their shared vision.  They would simply dominate Sasuke in CQC.

Not to mention, besides having access to a good number of summons, Animal Realm was an incredibly fast summoner (he was able to counter HM Jiraiya's fastest attack with a summon in the time it covered like 1 meter).  Therefore, even if Sasuke managed to figure out Pains' shared vision and managed to paralyze a body find an opening, if he attacked any body not called Animal Realm, Animal Realm could just summon the body out of harm's way.

Also if Sasuke took out Hungry Ghost, Animal, or Human Realm first, he'd be wasting chakra if Hell Realm managed to revive their body.

The way I see it, Pain would just overwhelm Hebi Sasuke in CQC.  One hit with those black rods and Sasuke loses because it'd create an opening for another realm to paralyze him, rip out his soul, drain his chakra or simply stab him in the face.

Sasuke may be able to take them (there are just so many different things that can happen), but I don't see him getting through the fight without eventually getting pierced by one of Pain's sticks.

Edit: Oh wait, the least number of bodies Sasuke can beat, right.

I'd say he can beat Hell, Hungry Ghost, and Animal/Human Realm all at once.  I'm not sure about Human, Animal Realm, and Hungry Ghost.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you mean getting prison raped by "giving trouble", then I'll agree. And oh, that was SM Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense but this has to be the shittiest logic I've seen in a while in BD.





 I would think a guy like you wouldn't have to resort to insults considering you were crying about IceGaze wrecking you with insults. 

 Furthermore, the fact that you resorted to using insults implies you can't refute my argument, so therefore, you deserve a check from my buddy  here.

 Checkmate.


----------



## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you mean getting prison raped by "giving trouble", then I'll agree. And oh, that was SM Jiraiya.



SM Jiraiya & Base Jiraiya are the same character, and his name is Jiraiya. Jiraiya is not losing to Hebi Sasuke in under a minute. 

You also have an interesting definition of "prison rape." 





I could understand if this was v2 A starting from five meters away.

But Hebi Sasuke low-diffing Jiraiya is top kek.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> SM Jiraiya obviously, base Jiraiya wouldn't last more than a minute against Sasuke.


In that case:



> I'd say Sasuke is more durable


Sennin Modo > CS. Jiraiya also started off as more durable being 2 Tiers higher in physical strength. So 



> faster


Base-Jiraiya has the same speed as Sasuke [4.5]. SM Sensing > Sharingan Precog. Sennin Modo > CS. So again: 



> is overall more dangerous and lethal in CQC due to his raiton variants.


Base-Jiraiya > than Sasuke by 2 Tiers in Taijutsu and Strength. Sennin Modo > CS. Chou Oddoma Rasengan > Chidori. Senpo-Elemental Jutsu > Sasuke's Elemental Jutsu, etc... 

So really yet again:   : dafuq



> iraiya has better mid range arsenal, better utility due to kagebunshins and more firepower because of Odaama rasengan


Try better everything, like every ninja art Grimjow and you'd be correct.



> and has better more mobility thanks to his pseudo flying ability


Literally your only reasonable point, but whether limited flight or giant toad leaps are better Idk.


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## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

I don't think that Sasuke could beat SM Jiraiya, but I think he has a better chance against SM Jiraiya than Base Jiraiya has against Hebi Sasuke.


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## Rocky (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think that Sasuke could beat SM Jiraiya, but I think he has a better chance against SM Jiraiya than Base Jiraiya has against Hebi Sasuke.



No.

If Jiraiya could start every fight in Sage Mode, I'd tier him with Minato and Itachi.

Let me remind everyone that Cancer Itachi forced himself to fight Sasuke in a battle of attrition in order to draw out Orochimaru, and _he fucking won._ Sick Itachi is probably one of the _worst_ characters out there for outlasting someone. 

Hebi Sasuke is a fly to Sage Jiraiya, just as he would have been to his big brother had Itachi not jobbed himself into his grave. Base J-dog is certainly no insect to Hebi Sasuke though.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think that Sasuke could beat SM Jiraiya, but I think he has a better chance against SM Jiraiya than Base Jiraiya has against Hebi Sasuke.


The fact of the matter is Base-Jiraiya is still better than Hebi-Sasuke in numerous ways; Taijutsu, Strength, Stamina, Intelligence, Knowledge, Experience, and Versatility. His summons are still better than Hebi-Sasuke's, considering Hebi-Sasuke needs to Genjutsu Manda to control him and only has that Boss-Summon, while Jiraiya has three and than the Ni Dai Sennin on top of it. The only areas Hebi-Sasuke is really above base-Jiraiya is speed and Genjutsu. Genjutsu is tough against Jiraiya due to him having summons and KB to fall back on, as well as knowledge of Genjutsu and alternative detection methods. Speed is great, but the fact of the matter is if Hidan can keep up with Kakashi, with his 3.5 in speed due to his Taijutsu skill, Jiraiya should not fall that far behind that he's going to be blitz'd.

Now who would win between Base-Jiriaya and Hebi-Sasuke I don't know, as CS than buffs Sasuke further in certain areas making it closer than the above, but it's still a good fight. As oppose to this SM-Jiriaya trolls Hebi-Sasuke, w/ ease.


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## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> If Jiraiya could start every fight in Sage Mode, I'd tier him with Minato and Itachi.
> 
> ...


This is mostly your opinion that Jiraiya is as strong as those two though. If you view Jiraiya as being as strong as them then I can see why you would think he'd stomp hebi sasuke. I'd argue either of the two you mentioned are stronger feat or hype wise though. That's a road that's going to go dangerously off topic when the matter at hand is Hebi Sasuke vs Jiraiya though.  

On the merit of pure feats, I think CS2 Sasuke is closer to SM Jiraiya than he is to base jiraiya though. He's faster, stronger,  his ninjutsu is all senjutsu enhanced and going to beat out most of Jiraiya's, he can genjutsu boss summons as well as potentially genjutsu Jiraiya. Sasuke's survivability outclasses Jiraiya's entirely between C2 doton tanking durability and oral rebirth. Then there's Kirin.

I honestly don't believe Jiraiya stands much of a chance at all against him in base; what exactly is he going to do? Like, how would he win? Sasuke's just rawly superior to base Jiraiya in every way.

In SM things are kind reversed into the opposite spectrum with Jiraiya being the superior in pretty much all those things. But at least Sasuke still has Kirin, and with full knowledge he can play a game of keep away and set up for the OHKO. Him dodging/snake shielding/damage soaking/oral rebirthing to stay alive while the thunderstorm brews atleast gives him a chance of winning against an (admittedly) superior opponent.

Base Jiraiya has no hope against sasuke  . He would have a hard time accurately hitting Sasuke let alone doing more damage than Deidara's point blank C2 did to the sauce. Does he even have an attack in base capable of legitimately wounding Sasuke to a serious extent?


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## Sadgoob (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> On the merit of pure feats, I think CS2 Sasuke is closer to SM Jiraiya than he is to base jiraiya though. He's faster, stronger,  his ninjutsu is all senjutsu enhanced and going to beat out most of Jiraiya's, he can genjutsu boss summons as well as potentially genjutsu Jiraiya. Sasuke's survivability outclasses Jiraiya's entirely between C2 doton tanking durability and oral rebirth. Then there's Kirin.



100% agree with you.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Madara's first slash and held the blade in place.

 That's one move that can harm CS2 Sasuke and this was from a Weakened Base Jiraiya. Imagine SM Jiraiya using this along with Ma and Pa's oil to enhance it further.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> He's  stronger


No Jiraiya is two tiers better [4.5 vs 3.5]. He's also better feat wise considering a mere finger poke of his could send P1-Naruto flying over a large gorge. 



> , his ninjutsu is all senjutsu enhanced and going to beat out most of Jiraiya's


Gama Yu Endan, Suiton Drilling Water Bullets, Toad Gourd Barrier Seal, Food Cart Destroyer, and to a lesser extent Toad Stomach, Turn him Into Toad, Shadow-Control & Rasenrengan. 



> he can genjutsu boss summons as well as potentially genjutsu Jiraiya


Partner Method 



> Sasuke's survivability outclasses Jiraiya's entirely between C2 doton tanking durability and oral rebirth


This is certainly valid, but Sasuke even with his survivability isn't surviving any of Jiraiya's stronger attacks, so it's not making or breaking this match.



> Then there's Kirin.


And Base-Jiraiya has multiple attacks that are 1-shots to Hebi-Sasuke. 



> I honestly don't believe Jiraiya stands much of a chance at all against him in base; what exactly is he going to do? Like, how would he win? Does he even have an attack in base capable of legitimately wounding Sasuke to a serious extent?


Summons a Toad on top of him. Hits him with multiple Drilling-Water Bullets and each individually were as strong as Shukaku's Air-Bullets. Traps him in Toad Stomach or Toad Gourd Barrier seal, the latter of which he managed to pull off down an arm and up against Pain Rikudo. Roasts him alive with Gama Yu Endan.



> Sasuke's just rawly superior to base Jiraiya in every way.


We literally have statistical scores that tells us that's not true.


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## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The fact of the matter is Base-Jiraiya is still better than Hebi-Sasuke in numerous ways; Taijutsu, Strength, Stamina, Intelligence, Knowledge, Experience, and Versatility. His summons are still better than Hebi-Sasuke's, considering Hebi-Sasuke needs to Genjutsu Manda to control him and only has that Boss-Summon, while Jiraiya has three and than the Ni Dai Sennin on top of it. The only areas Hebi-Sasuke is really above base-Jiraiya is speed and Genjutsu. Genjutsu is tough against Jiraiya due to him having summons and KB to fall back on, as well as knowledge of Genjutsu and alternative detection methods. Speed is great, but the fact of the matter is if Hidan can keep up with Kakashi, with his 3.5 in speed due to his Taijutsu skill, Jiraiya should not fall that far behind that he's going to be blitz'd.
> 
> Now who would win between Base-Jiriaya and Hebi-Sasuke I don't know, as CS than buffs Sasuke further in certain areas making it closer than the above, but it's still a good fight. As oppose to this SM-Jiriaya trolls Hebi-Sasuke, w/ ease.


I don't think base jiraiya's physically stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, but that's a minor point. I don't know how much Intelligence, knowledge, and experience counts for either. Hebi Sasuke is extremely versatile as well.

Taijutsu? Sasuke has the speed advantage, precognition, chidori gatana and chidori nagashi not to mention genjutsu which means Jiraiya's going to have to avoid eye contact and therefore be adversely effected. His close quarters ninjutsu which will factor into taijutsu is as I implied with Rocky, much better.  

Jiraiya's summons  can be genjutsu'd like Manda even with access to partner method. The only people who detect genjutsu immediately are sensors, and even then some of them have to consciously sense for it.

He doesn't need genjutsu to beat base jiraiya anyway though, he's faster and stronger and his ninjutsu is senjutsu buffed and superior to jiraiya's.  

I don't think Jiraiya's going to get blitzed, but all in it'd be an extremely onesided match of a slower side getting their techniques dodged (or just straight up tanked if he feels like it, Sauce doesn't mind katons and explosions that much) and losing exchanges with a ninjutsu user who has senjutsu.  I'll reiterate, at least Sasuke has a chance against SM Jiraiya.


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## Lawrence777 (May 17, 2015)

> Gama Yu Endan, Suiton Drilling Water Bullets, Toad Gourd Barrier Seal, Food Cart Destroyer, and to a lesser extent Toad Stomach, Turn him Into Toad, Shadow-Control & Rasenrengan.


I'll give you Gama Yu Endan.

The suitons can be dodged or meat shielded. They aren't worse than point blank C2 missile regardless though.

Can you link the toad gourd? Don't know that one. 

He reacted to something similar to food cart destroyer already[1] without sharingan precog or cursed seal speed bonus(which was by itself a boost comparable to sharingan precog[1] The rest of those attacks are proving my point of not being as strong as C2 missile. Toad Stomach seemed to be more effective indoors, not sure how it would fair in most other situations.

Your just naming these things and not their odds of successfully landing btw. I'd like to reiterate Hebi Sasuke's faster than anyone base jiraiya's ever had to deal with.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think base jiraiya's physically stronger than Hebi-Sasuke, but that's a minor point. I don't know how much Intelligence, knowledge, and experience counts for either. Hebi Sasuke is extremely versatile as well.


You said he's better at everything, he clearly isn't, which is where this point was direct towards.



> Taijutsu? Sasuke has the speed advantage, precognition, chidori gatana and chidori nagashi not to mention genjutsu which means Jiraiya's going to have to avoid eye contact and therefore be adversely effected. His close quarters ninjutsu which will factor into taijutsu is as I implied with Rocky, much better.


Sasuke will be tough up close, but tough is no insurmountable, which is the case with SM-Jiraiya vs Hebi Sasuke. Jiraiya can counter the speed advantage with Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin making it difficult for Sasuke to use his speed to attack blind-spots and by augmenting his numbers with KB and powerful summons like the Ni Dai Sennin. Chidori Variants are dangerous, but even with CS none are overpowering Rasenrengan in a might contest, they do offer more versatility than Rasrengan does, but Jiraiya is overall the more versatile fighter to begin with give his wide plethora of Jutsu and mastery of elements. Avoid eye-contact is not a huge issue when Jiriaya has Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin, Summons, and KB to avoid Genjutsu. As well as his own speedy attacks in the former of Food Cart Destroyer. All of this stuff is dangerous, but not game enders the way SM-Jiriaya can just attack Sasuke w/ Chou Oddoma Rasengan be done with it. 

And beyond that Jiraiya's Mid and Long-Range games are indisputably better than Sasuke's outside of Kirin. His Katons can be fueled with greater chakra quantities allowing them to overwhelm Sasuke's, and his summon's attacks like drilling-water bullets or combinations like Gama Yu Endan are far above anything Hebi-Sasuke is capable off sans Kirin. 

On-top of this Jiraiya has a number of tricky traps he can implement to take Sasuke off guard such as his Shadow-Tech, Iwagama Stomach, and Toad-Gourd Barrier seal, with the latter of which working even when up again Pain-Rikudo and down 1-arm, so I have little doubts it can be a game ender against Hebi-Sasuke.



> Jiraiya's summons can be genjutsu'd like Manda even with access to partner method. The only people who detect genjutsu immediately are sensors, and even then some of them have to consciously sense for it.


As soon as the summon stops Jiriaya will detect it and release them. If he doesn't just have them avoid eye contact entirely while relying on Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin direction, considering their attacks hardly need to be very accurate considering their range and scope. Not to mention two of Jiraiya's summons [Ma and Pa] are Sensors with their Sennin Modo.



> He doesn't need genjutsu to beat base jiraiya anyway though, he's faster and stronger and his ninjutsu is senjutsu buffed and superior to jiraiya's


His Ninjutsu isn't stronger. Water-Bullets and Gama Yu Endan are superior to anything bar Kirin, and can be performed a-lot more easily and fluidly.



> I don't think Jiraiya's going to get blitzed, but all in it'd be an extremely onesided match of a slower side getting their techniques dodged (or just straight up tanked if he feels like it, Sauce doesn't mind katons and explosions that much) and losing exchanges with a ninjutsu user who has senjutsu. I'll reiterate, at least Sasuke has a chance against SM Jiraiya.


I fail to see how Jiraiya doesn't have at least a chance to defeat Hebi-Sasuke with moves like Gama Yu Endan, Food Cart Destroyer, Water-Bullets, and Toad Gourd Barrier Seal. All of these techniques have shown more than enough to beat Hebi-Sasuke, with a proper utilization he could also win with Toad Stomach, Rasenrengan, Shadow-Technique, and turn him into Toad Tech. And even if you doubt the efficiency of the last one against non-fodder, the rest are solid.

On the flip side of this in reality Hebi-Sasuke does not stand a chance against SM-Jiriaya, because he can not survive long enough to use Kirin. He has no answer to most of Jiraiya's Sennin Modo Techniques, on-top of the Base-Jiraiya techniques I already listed that can kill him, which are only improved even more with the addition of Senjutsu or Jiraiya's physical capabilities rising.



Lawrence777 said:


> The suitons can be dodged or meat shielded. They aren't worse than point blank C2 missile regardless though.


Bunta was able to spit out 4 bullets in a rapid succession each countering 1 of Shukaku's Air blasts. Sasuke has not shown anything that would indicate he can evade so many massive bullets consistently. As far as power goes, no C2 is not superior, a single Air-Bullet, which Bunta's Bullets matched did this to the surrounding forest and kept going:
Link removed

A single C2 is not superior to that, and let me remind you that their are going to be 4 of these coming at Sasuke here, and the C2 missile did do heavy damage to Sasuke blowing off his wing.



> Can you link the toad gourd? Don't know that one.




And he killed Animal Path with it:
Link removed



> He reacted to something similar to food cart destroyer already[


Food Cart happens at the speed of S/T since it's summoning the Toad on top of something, which is much faster than a C1 bird's flight speed. And if he tried to meat shield that shit he'd be squashed by the weight of the toad.



> The rest of those attacks are proving my point of not being as strong as C2 missile


The rest of those attacks are ones that bypass durability, sans Rasenrengan, which I do think is more powerful than C2 Missile. 



> issile. Toad Stomach seemed to be more effective indoors, not sure how it would fair in most other situations.


And a-lot of battlefields include some "indoor" structure. Caves, Buildings, Pipelines, etc.. 



> Your just naming these things and not their odds of successfully landing btw. I'd like to reiterate Hebi Sasuke's faster than anyone base jiraiya's ever had to deal with.


That doesn't mean anything when Jiraiya has the means to deal with that speed through traps or AOE techniques.


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## Alex Payne (May 18, 2015)

And people call Hebi Sasuke overrated... An amalgamation of P2 Sasuke and Orochimaru which was called superior to a team of those two is surely going to struggle against Base Jiraiya with fight going either way. No wonder J-Man was beating Oro in every fight they had. Oh, wait...


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke is not above any incarnation of Orochimaru that would compete with Jiraiya.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I have my doubts about Sasuke's Kasegui being on the same level as Sage-enhanced Gamarinsho. Orochimaru was about to counter Itachi's version. I'd argue Nagato can perform better. Plus there are two other opponents around being constantly aware about what's going on. It isn't going to be completely non-factor. Just far from usual effectiveness. Pain got some solid anti-genjutsu tricks. Jiraiya just happened to have the perfect genjutsu to use against him.



Hebi Sasuke suffers the Uchiha's "Stand in place during basic genjutsu," issues that aren't going to fly against more than one Path of Pain anyway.


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## Alex Payne (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hebi Sasuke is not above any incarnation of Orochimaru that would compete with Jiraiya.


Hebi Sasuke by definition is Sasuke+Orochimaru in one body. How can he be weaker than just Orochimaru? You can at best argue that it would be his "suicide tech" to unleash Hydra Oro but it is still within his powers. That was the whole point behind Sasuke _absorbing_ Oro - for Sasuke to have access to his abilities alongside his own.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

If you want to count Orochimaru himself emerging from Sasuke as part of Sasuke's power, then sure, he can beat Jiraiya...if Orochimaru appears and does it for him. It seemed pretty situational though. 

Sasuke himself didn't have access to all of Orochimaru's abilities, which is why I wouldn't consider Sasuke superior. _Sasuke_ can't transform into the Hydra thing, nor can he use that White Snake form that bleeds poison. He also lacks Edo Tensei if you want to count that. Sauce also lacks Orochimaru's natural regeneration, or whatever it was that allowed him to stitch himself back together after getting bisected by Naruto.


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## Alex Payne (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you want to count Orochimaru himself emerging from Sasuke as part of Sasuke's power, then sure, he can beat Jiraiya...if Orochimaru appears and does it for him. It seemed pretty situational though.


 It is roughly the same as Naruto or any other Jin going berserk using their Biju. Roughly the same as Minato using Shiki Fujin to trade his life for opponent's. Sauce attained that power fair and square - by beating Oro in his own game. We don't even know if Sasuke would be unable to deal with freed Oro if he tries to take his body again. 



Rocky said:


> Sasuke himself didn't have access to all of Orochimaru's abilities, which is why I wouldn't consider Sasuke superior. _Sasuke_ can't transform into the Hydra thing, nor can he use that White Snake form that bleeds poison. He also lacks Edo Tensei if you want to count that. Sauce also lacks Orochimaru's natural regeneration, or whatever it was that allowed him to stitch himself back together after getting bisected by Naruto.


 And Sasuke's own Kage-worthy arsenal suddenly is irrelevant. Sasuke got enough of Oro's perks to be considered superior to a simple team up. Hebi Sasuke is easily in the same Tier as Sannin. Just by virtue of having one inside him. Even if only part of said Sannin power is accessible.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 18, 2015)

Hebi with Orochimaru absorbtion is at least below sick dying Oro with his jutsu sealed, and sick dying Oro with no jutsu is still Sannin level, albeit in the lowest end, and still respectably strong.

The team up referred to Orochimaru in his current state.  But as it turned out, Hydra Orochimaru+Hebi post absorption still lost to Itachi, so I'm not sure it's a hair worth splitting.


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## Alex Payne (May 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hebi with Orochimaru absorbtion is at least below sick dying Oro with his jutsu sealed, and sick dying Oro with no jutsu is still Sannin level, albeit in the lowest end, and still respectably strong.


 That was Pre-Hebi Sasuke who was said to be superior to sick Oro.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The team up referred to Orochimaru in his current state.  But as it turned out, Hydra Orochimaru+Hebi post absorption still lost to Itachi, so I'm not sure it's a hair worth splitting.


 That was Oro capable of duking it out with KN4. And Itachi winning that battle was more about Itachi simply being strong. Than about Sasuke and Orochimaru being weak.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sennin Modo > CS. Jiraiya also started off as more durable being 2 Tiers higher in physical strength. So


Sennin Modo users don't have CS 2 level durability. What kind of a fanfic is that ? 

You can make a case when they tank a sword with their skin. superior to a simple team up




> Base-Jiraiya has the same speed as Sasuke [4.5]. SM Sensing > Sharingan Precog. Sennin Modo > CS. So again:


Deidara also has the same speed as Sasuke, yet he felt Sasuke's speed was overhwhelming.

Jiraiya doesn't have sage sensing, but even if he had it, then your assertion would still be wrong.
You could best argue that Sage Sensing is better in certain areas, but in a direct clash, sharingan precog is pretty much the same if not outright better.

Jiraiya's imperfect SM wasn't that good TBH.



> Base-Jiraiya > than Sasuke by 2 Tiers in Taijutsu and Strength. Sennin Modo > CS. Chou Oddoma Rasengan > Chidori. Senpo-Elemental Jutsu > Sasuke's Elemental Jutsu, etc...



Why is taijutsu a deal breaker here, neither Jiraiya nor Sasuke are heavily reliant on it. Sasuke uses a chidori sword, which Jiraiya can't block. Also CQC against Sasuke is more dangerous for Jiraiya because of Nagashi.



> Try better everything, like every ninja art Grimjow and you'd be correct.


Its delusional to think that Jiraiya is better than Sasuke @ Ninjutsu as a whole.
Kirin shits on anything Jiraiya has ever shown. 



> Literally your only reasonable point, but whether limited flight or giant toad leaps are better Idk.



Come at me bro.



NarutoX28 said:


> I would think a guy like you wouldn't have to resort to insults considering you were crying about IceGaze wrecking you with insults.
> 
> Furthermore, the fact that you resorted to using insults implies you can't refute my argument, so therefore, you deserve a check from my buddy  here.
> 
> Checkmate.



Yeah ok whatever 



Rocky said:


> SM Jiraiya & Base Jiraiya are the same character,
> and his name is Jiraiya.



Are you new to the battledome my dear ?




> Jiraiya is not losing to Hebi Sasuke in under a minute.


He sadly is. 



> You also have an interesting definition of "prison rape."




Do I now ? 
superior to a simple team up



> But Hebi Sasuke low-diffing Jiraiya is top kek.


Base Jiraiya is pretty underwhelming. 
Sasuke can overwhelm him pretty quickly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 18, 2015)

> Hebi with Orochimaru absorbtion is at least below sick dying Oro



I said below, but I meant "Above."


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## Raiken (May 18, 2015)

1: Pain
2: Obito / Itachi
3: Kisame / Orochimaru "w/ Arms & Not Sick"
4: Sasuke / Deidara / Sasori
5: Kakuzu / Hidan / Konan
6: Zetsu


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## Turrin (May 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And people call Hebi Sasuke overrated... An amalgamation of P2 Sasuke and Orochimaru w.


Alex Fuushi Tensei is never stated to give anyone anything other than the target's body. It's never said to give the enemy's Jutsu or knowledge to use those Jutsu. You get the body and it's passive abilities that's it. Hebi-Sasuke never got any of Orochimaru's Jutsu, he didn't otherwise have the knowledge and proficiency to use, just lacking the natural passive traits of the body to use. That's why  Hebi-Sasuke showed nowhere near Orochimaru's thousands of Jutsu, mastery of every element, Yamata no Orochi, Edo-Tensei, WSM, and so on. Literally he only showed Shadow Snake Hands and Oral-Rebirth.



> which was called superior to a team of those two


This just plain never happened, and quite frankly I expect better of you Alex.



> to a team of those two is surely going to struggle against Base Jiraiya with fight going either way. No wonder J-Man was beating Oro in every fight they had.


Fact of the matter is considering Kishi's writing, people should acknowledge that the Naruto Parallel of the rivalry usually holds the edge, which is Jiriaya. So it would be hardly surprising if Kishi considered Jiraiya a bit better Orochimaru, when both were at their best back in PI.

Beyond that SPII-Sasuke was stronger than a armless and bedridden Orochimaru, and quite frankly debatably at that, considering he was paralyzed by White-Snake Venom and if Orochimaru wished to bite his head off instead of using Fuushi Tensei I see nothing stopping him from doing so. Granted that was before Sasuke's absorbed Orochimaru, but literally what did Sasuke gain from absorbing Orochimaru; Shadow-Snake Hands, Oral Rebirth, and quicker Regen, is that raising his level all that much, fucking hell no. He's probably less debatably superior to armless and bedridden Orochimaru, but he still comes nowhere close to Full Power Orochimaru.



> It is roughly the same as Naruto or any other Jin going berserk using their Biju. Roughly the same as Minato using Shiki Fujin to trade his life for opponent's


It's not the same because it's literally releasing an entirely different entity from ones body that may or may not fight for you. It would be like a Jin completely releasing their Bijuu from their body and praying that said Bijuu decided to fight their enemy. It wouldn't be that Jin's power anymore because it's a completely different entity at that point and it would be completely unreliable as to whether said entity could be counted on helping.



> Sauce attained that power fair and square - by beating Oro in his own game


He ambushed a sick man in his bed, who than had to fight him w/o killer intent. That's a rather loose definition of fair 



> We don't even know if Sasuke would be unable to deal with freed Oro if he tries to take his body again.


Sasuke with no chakra left would have been able to deal with Orochimaru trying to get his body again, if Itachi wasn't there?



> And Sasuke's own Kage-worthy arsenal suddenly is irrelevant.


Sasuke's own arsenal was barely up to the task of defeating bedridden armless Orochimaru. To say it makes up for techniques like Edo-Tensei, Yamata no Orochi, WSM, Fuushi Tensei, and thousands of other Jutsu is quite absurd Alex.



> Sasuke got enough of Oro's perks


Sasuke got the perks of Orochimaru's passive body abilities, that's it. And no they weren't enough as he couldn't use most of Orochimaru's Jutsu.



> to be considered superior to a simple team up.


So that's where you getting that shit from. Okay first off here's the more accurate translation:

Sasuke, "In the present time nether myself nor Orochimaru can defeat Itachi"

Sasuke is talking about the present, I.E. a weakened Orochimaru. And he is talking about them individually not as a team.

So again Hebi-Sasuke was stronger than a weakened Orochimaru, that's it. 



> Hebi Sasuke is easily in the same Tier as Sannin


By Sasuke's own admission he is not:

Karin

"Sloppy!"
"Is this even the man who defeated Orochimaru!?"


Sasuke

"Orochimaru from the start was weakened"
"there's nothing more to that story"




> . Just by virtue of having one inside him. Even if only part of said Sannin power is accessible


If only part of the Sannin's power is accessible he is not Sannin level, he is handicapped Sannin level, which is indeed around where he's at.



> That was Oro capable of duking it out with KN4.


For a few moment he was beaten around by KN4, before his body rejection forced him to stop. So yeah Sasuke can be around a similar "level" to that heavily nerfed Orochimaru.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I said below, but I meant "Above."


Such underhanded tactic



Turrin said:


> Alex Fuushi Tensei is never stated to give anyone anything other than the target's body. It's never said to give the enemy's Jutsu or knowledge to use those Jutsu. You get the body and it's passive abilities that's it. Hebi-Sasuke never got any of Orochimaru's Jutsu, he didn't otherwise have the knowledge and proficiency to use, just lacking the natural passive traits of the body to use. That's why  Hebi-Sasuke showed nowhere near Orochimaru's thousands of Jutsu, mastery of every element, Yamata no Orochi, Edo-Tensei, WSM, and so on. Literally he only showed Shadow Snake Hands and Oral-Rebirth.





Turrin said:


> Alex Fuushi Tensei is never stated to give anyone  anything other than the target's body.





Turrin said:


> Literally he only showed Shadow Snake Hands and Oral-Rebirth.


 
Explain to me how he got those two jutsu then. Sasuke showed Killer Intent capable of stopping both Suigetsu and Jugo. Killer Intent from a guy that didn't kill anyone. Something tells me it wasn't exactly his. His genjutsu had snake-effects all over them. Never appeared again after Oro was removed. Hell, him simply getting White Snake passive healing is enough of a hint. He got Oro's suppressed soul. Not his DNA/body part. Sasuke didn't get everything. But he had enough for him to consider taking on Itachi. Something pre-ritual Sasuke and Orochimaru(with all his resources) were admittedly not capable of. 




Turrin said:


> This just plain never happened, and quite frankly I expect better of you Alex.


 I expect better of myself every day. Doesn't end well most of the time...
Sasuke said so himself. And it makes sense. Oro had no reason to disagree to a simple team up. He was confident in Fushi Tensei.  




Turrin said:


> Fact of the matter is considering Kishi's writing, people should acknowledge that the Naruto Parallel of the rivalry usually holds the edge, which is Jiriaya. So it would be hardly surprising if Kishi considered Jiraiya a bit better Orochimaru, when both were at their best back in PI.


 Jiraiya is Naruto who _failed_. He was unable to help his friend. Nor he was able to simply beat him up like Hashirama did to Madara. And stop him from endangering Konoha. 



Turrin said:


> Beyond that SPII-Sasuke was stronger than a armless and bedridden Orochimaru, and quite frankly debatably at that, considering he was paralyzed by White-Snake Venom and if Orochimaru wished to bite his head off instead of using Fuushi Tensei I see nothing stopping him from doing so. Granted that was before Sasuke's absorbed Orochimaru, but literally what did Sasuke gain from absorbing Orochimaru; Shadow-Snake Hands, Oral Rebirth, and quicker Regen, is that raising his level all that much, fucking hell no. He's probably less debatably superior to armless and bedridden Orochimaru, but he still comes nowhere close to Full Power Orochimaru.


 If he was nowhere near Full Power Oro - he wouldn't even think about challenging Itachi. "My teacher got wrecked and I am nowhere near his level but whatever". It simply doesn't make sense. At the very least he should be around Oro's general level but with a better anti-Itachi toolset. He simply wouldn't start hunting his brother if he wasn't ready. 




Turrin said:


> It's not the same because it's literally releasing an entirely different entity from ones body that may or may not fight for you. It would be like a Jin completely releasing their Bijuu from their body and praying that said Bijuu decided to fight their enemy. It wouldn't be that Jin's power anymore because it's a completely different entity at that point and it would be completely unreliable as to whether said entity could be counted on helping.


 Orochimaru wants Sasuke's body undamaged. Enemy wants Sasuke dead. I wonder what would Oro do...




Turrin said:


> He ambushed a sick man in his bed, who than had to fight him w/o killer intent. That's a rather loose definition of fair


 Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body and performed Fushi Tensei. And lost. I think it is fair. Sasuke didn't even need to ambush and attack him if you think about it. Oro lost the body snatching game. 




Turrin said:


> Sasuke with no chakra left would have been able to deal with Orochimaru trying to get his body again, if Itachi wasn't there?


 Depends at what point Sasuke let Oro loose. And with Oro needing another Fushi Tensei contest... Point is - Orochimaru needs Sasuke alive and with undamaged body. His options are rather limited. 




Turrin said:


> Sasuke's own arsenal was barely up to the task of defeating bedridden armless Orochimaru. To say it makes up for techniques like Edo-Tensei, Yamata no Orochi, WSM, Fuushi Tensei, and thousands of other Jutsu is quite absurd Alex.


 You think Kirin can't end Oro? 




Turrin said:


> Sasuke got the perks of Orochimaru's passive body abilities, that's it. And no they weren't enough as he couldn't use most of Orochimaru's Jutsu
> 
> So that's where you getting that shit from. Okay first off here's the more accurate translation:
> 
> ...


 Yeah. And Sasuke who was weaker than Orochimaru decided that he was ready for Itachi.  




Turrin said:


> By Sasuke's own admission he is not:
> 
> Karin
> 
> ...


 Handicapped Sannin-level isn't enough to challenge Itachi. And you should think about that comment a little bit more. Karin had no idea who was Sasuke fighting with. And was disappointed seeing her idol beaten up. Sasuke simply corrected her outburst. That comment has no direct relation to his fight vs Deidara. 




> For a few moment he was beaten around by KN4, before his body rejection forced him to stop. So yeah Sasuke can be around a similar "level" to that heavily nerfed Orochimaru.


 Orochimaru actually performed better than Jiraiya considering the latter had the Seal Key and ability to affect Kyubi through that. And was beaten up badly.


Bottom line - Sasuke decided that he was ready for Itachi. He had enough knowledge on both Orochimaru and Itachi to know the minimum requirements. Being around healthy Orochimaru's level + anti-Itachi moveset. Early Part 2 Sasuke is far from dumb. He carefully planned everything up to vs Itachi battle. If we are going to take your stance we have dumb Sasuke who doesn't know a single relevant thing about his goal. And that simply doesn't make sense.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you new to the battledome my dear ?



No sweetums.

Asking me that doesn't take away from the fact that there isn't anything in the story suggesting Sasuke was so powerful before the Mangekyou that he could roll one of the legendary Sannin in the time it takes me to nuke my Hot Pocket.



> Do I now ?
> changed



Pain _won_, but Jiraiya gave him trouble. That was my entire point. 

Hell, Pain even said as much.



> Base Jiraiya is pretty underwhelming.
> Sasuke can overwhelm him pretty quickly.



Are you one of those people that still think Itachi can solo the Sannin?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No sweetums.
> Asking me that doesn't take away from the fact that there isn't anything in the story suggesting Sasuke was so powerful before the Mangekyou that he could roll one of the legendary Sannin in the time it takes me to nuke my Hot Pocket.


Hebi Sasuke was depicted as Orochimaru's superior, who happens to be Jiraiya's equal.

I also made the distinction that Sasuke'd defeat base Jiraiya without trouble, I never said he was much stronger than Jiraiya overall.



> Pain _won_, but Jiraiya gave him trouble. That was my entire point.
> 
> Hell, Pain even said as much.



He gave Pain trouble because : 

Pain underestimated him, and allowed him to go SM. Yes, he pretty much let Jiraiya do it, by sending only animal realm to deal with him. 
And Jiraiya defeated relatively weaker bodies with SM.

Which also doesn't have much to do with my claim.



> Are you one of those people that still think Itachi can solo the Sannin?



I always argued that Itachi needed favorable odds to solo the sannin. But If granted, yes, he surely can.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I always argued that Itachi needed favorable odds to solo the sannin. But If granted, yes, he surely can.



I like Itachi. Why is this still going on. 

Oh well.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I like Itachi. Why is this still going on.
> 
> Oh well.




You like Itachi ? 

But yeah, pit Itachi against all 3 sannin with limited knowledge(for both parties) and see what happens.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You like Itachi ?





Rocky said:


> I like Itachi.





> But yeah, pit Itachi against all 3 sannin with limited knowledge(for both parties) and see what happens.



He dies  .


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He dies  .



That is the wrong answer.

But I'm sure you'd be able to make a case on how Sannin can deal with MS without exclusive knowledge.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

If they have absolutely zero knowledge on what a Sharingan is, then he'd get one of them with Tsukuyomi. The remaining two would likely mid-diff him though.

That's irrelevant because the Sannin know what the Sharingan is.


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## Ghost (May 18, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke would easily beat Jiraiya or Tsunade from a standard starting distance (10-15 meters) with manga knowledge.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

I almost didn't recognize you. Where'd your rep go? ^


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## Icegaze (May 18, 2015)

how has this turned into sanin vs hebi sasuke ?

though I find it hilarious that hebi sasuke who struggles to fight itachi holding back is going to be killing the sanin 
when as far as kishi intends jiriaya and itachi are dam near equal 


but hey fan bias and all. Base jiriaya beats hebi. Sm shit stops him to the ground low diff.


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## Ghost (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I almost didn't recognize you. Where'd your rep go? ^



Lost it in a blaze of glory wagered it in 9 sections colosseum



Icegaze said:


> though I find it hilarious that hebi sasuke who struggles to fight itachi holding back is going to be killing the sanin



1. Itachi > Sannin
2. Itachi's fighting style is way different from the Sannin




> when as far as kishi intends jiriaya and itachi are dam near equal


no



> Base jiriaya beats hebi.



Sasuke counters everything Jiraiya has, how is Jiraiya beating him?


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when as far as kishi intends jiriaya and itachi are dam near equal.



Jiraiya was equated to a level beneath Orochimaru by Orochimaru, whereas Orochimaru placed Itachi on a level (far) above him. And Orochimaru's the guy that fought both of them multiple times.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If they have absolutely zero knowledge on what a Sharingan is, then he'd get one of them with Tsukuyomi. The remaining two would likely mid-diff him though.
> 
> That's irrelevant because the Sannin know what the Sharingan is.



Actually, without exclusive knowledge on the Mangekyou sharingan and its capabilities, there is no way they can deal with Itachi. In a reputation only scenario(they know Itachi is a proficient Uchiha) all MS jutsu can make really short work of them.

And when you think about it, Totsuka and Tsukiyomi are like nightmare match ups for Tsunade and Orochimaru, who both rely on tanking their opponents attacks with their durability/regen. 
And the only jutsu that won't do much against them, Amaterasu, can still one shot Jiraiya with no difficulty or whatsoever.


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's irrelevant because the Sannin know what the Sharingan is.



Orochimaru knew what the Sharingan was when he lost to kid Itachi. The Sannin do not respect standard Sharingan users. Wave Kakashi was _famous_, and Orochimaru treated him like a joke. 

Orochimaru turned his back on Kakashi, and dared him to try. It's not hard to imagine Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jiraiya getting completely wrecked if they went against Itachi with that attitude.​


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## LostSelf (May 18, 2015)

Everybody in Konoha knows how dangerous Itachi is.

I don't think either Jiraiya or Tsunade would 'disrespect' Itachi with all the hype this guy has. The same Orochimaru attempted a sneak attack like the snake he is.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 18, 2015)

Maybe if Jiraiya didn't think some toad stomach can solo the Uchiha sweeper and the infamous Swordsman, or the 8 men Squad has any single chance to capture both Itachi and Kisame. 

Come to think of it, all the Sannin are quite arrogant actually.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru turned his back on Kakashi, and dared him to try. It's not hard to imagine Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jiraiya getting completely wrecked if they went against Itachi with that attitude.​



They probably would if they turned their backs, but that's only because Itachi is such a master at targeting blind spots that they'd make it too easy for him. 

If Itachi has no knowledge on the Sannin though, would he approach them like he did Asuma, Kakashi, and Kurenai? Maybe he'd assume Tsunade was a weak woman (despite her..impressive..upper body)  and try to catch her arm like he did little Sasuke's lightning hand. 

That wouldn't be good, now would it Strat.


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Everybody in Konoha knows how dangerous Itachi is.
> 
> I don't think either Jiraiya or Tsunade would 'disrespect' Itachi with all the hype this guy has. The same Orochimaru attempted a sneak attack like the snake he is.



This is not actually the case, and it can be seen all throughout part one. We have people like Asuma and Kakashi thinking that they can take Itachi, but more or less cowering before Orochimaru.

Yet ninja knowledgeable about Itachi, namely Orochimaru, know that they stand no chance against Itachi. It's actually one of the elements that originally fascinated me, and is why Itachi's power is polarizing.

People can't decide whether to think that base Jiraiya stood a chance against Itachi and Kisame, or if he was just as deluded as Asuma or Kakashi was in thinking that he stood a chance in hell.​


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## LostSelf (May 18, 2015)

It's not that they thought they could take on Itachi. They had no other choice. The same Asuma acknowledged that Hidan and Kakuzu were stronger than him, but he stood there to fight.

Part 1 Base Jiraiya can only be fought by Itachi + Kisame + backup, as Itachi stated.

But yeah, he probably thought his jutsu would've defeated them, wich is why he went there prepared.


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Maybe he'd assume Tsunade was a weak woman (despite her..impressive..upper body)  and try to catch her arm like he did little Sasuke's lightning hand.
> 
> That wouldn't be good, now would it Strat.



Compared to healthy Itachi's strength, Tsunade has a feeble grip.​


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Part 1 Kisame is trash, and Part 2 Kisame is a mystery thanks to all of his good feats coming against a man with lots of chakra for him to take.

Itachi's statement was supposed to be " Itachi >=< Jiraiya" with Kisame being a nonfactor because of his trashness. Not "Base J-dog > Itachi + Kisame + Pain + rest of Akatsuki."


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> It's not that they thought they could take on Itachi. They had no other choice. The same Asuma acknowledged that Hidan and Kakuzu were stronger than him, but he stood there to fight.



If you reread Asuma assessing Hidan and Kakuzu, and then assessing Itachi and Kisame, you'll see the difference. He had no clue what he was getting himself into against the first duo.​


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Compared to healthy Itachi's strength, Tsunade has a feeble grip.​



Edo Itachi did go hand to hand with KCM Naruto who pushed a Bijudama through a barrier. 

With Edos being weaker than their living counterparts, reasonable power scaling should put Itachi _around_ Tsunade's level, not above it. Stop trolling.


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He also clashed with a perfect Sage a few times despite those diminished Edo physical stats..​



I had underestimated Itachi all along.

I now see.

I do.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

They don't need to underestimate Itachi for him to win(although they will, both Jiraiya and Oro are very cocky mofos).

Itachi is the smartest of the bunch, he doesn't need to know what exactly they do. As long as he knows Tsunade is the medic(she is world famous for that), she'll be his first target. Tsukiyomi ends her, and neither Jiraiya or Orochimaru can do anything about it. I can't even imagine a realistic scenario where Jiriaya actually falls backs and preps sage mode, while Orochimaru and/or Tsunade keep Itachi's hands full(so far Oro's track record has been pretty bad). 

We've seen how both Tsunade and Orochimaru don't care about getting hit. Oro was shredded against Naruto, Tsunade was tagged by Madara shit loads of times. I am pretty sure Itachi can do a better job with Totsuka than mindless Naruto running around or a Madara who is just dicking around. 

MS is pretty hard to fight against without exclusive knowledge. Like Imagine A had no knowledge on MS. He'd get killed by Amaterasu, despite potentially having the capability of dealing with it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> My tribute to the hot character of the week. Rank Hebi Sasuke within the Akatsuki.
> 
> My ranking:
> Obito
> ...



I'd agree with your ranking. Though about Orochimaru, it probably depends on if we assume Sasuke can use Orochimaru's power entirely. If the answer is yes, then we assume Orochimaru is beneath Sasuke, otherwise no. (Though by Itachi's admission, MS Sasuke would be above Itachi.)

I don't think Sasuke's going to be able to get past Animal Realm. Maybe if he manages to get Animal Realm out of its summon and faces the Paths that Jiraiya faced... he's finished.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

Dark Rasengan's animal realm is back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 18, 2015)

> Makes a list of the opponents boss crow can solo 
> TFW Jiraiya is in that list


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke was too much for a Susanoo-less Itachi to handle, so if I were to say a Susanoo-less Itachi is beneath Hebi Sasuke... does that mean I rank Kisame and Orochimaru above a Susanoo-less Itachi?

(Healthy Itachi makes no difference since the manga says he just doesn't cough blood and can dodge a shuriken.)


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## Turrin (May 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> me how he got those two jutsu then.


Hidden Snake Hands Sasuke could have just known himself. We know he could use Snake Kuchiyose with or w/o Orochimaru, and Shadow Snake hands is merely an application of that. Oral-Rebirth, he saw with his Sharingan activated right here:
Madara was more impressed by A's speed

So it's not surprising that once he gained Orochimaru's body he was able to use that Jutsu.



> Killer Intent from a guy that didn't kill anyone. Something tells me it wasn't exactly his.


Dude showed Killer intent against Sai and pretty sure he showed it in PII as well.



> His genjutsu had snake-effects all over them. Never appeared again after Oro was removed.


So a stylistic choice of Genjutsu is a power up now. Come on AP, you must know this is weak sauce.



> Hell, him simply getting White Snake passive healing is enough of a hint.


No that fits perfectly with what I said. He gained Orochimaru's body and it's passive traites, not Orochimaru's knowledge and Jutsu skills.



> . He got Oro's suppressed soul. Not his DNA/body part.


No he got his DNA and body sir. That's how Fuushi Tensei is stated to work:

_"A jutsu to obtain everlasting life by repeatedly transferring one's psyche into someone else's body."_



> But he had enough for him to consider taking on Itachi. Something pre-ritual Sasuke and Orochimaru(with all his resources) were admittedly not capable of.


All Sasuke said was weakened Orochimaru was not capable off it.



> sasuke said so himself. And it makes sense. Oro had no reason to disagree to a simple team up. He was confident in Fushi Tensei.


No he didn't. He said nether himself nor weakened Orochimaru could do it.



> Jiraiya is Naruto who failed. He was unable to help his friend. Nor he was able to simply beat him up like Hashirama did to Madara. And stop him from endangering Konoha.


Hashirama, Obito, and Nagato are also Naruto who failed, that doesn't stop them all from being at least slightly stronger than the Sasuke's equivalent rival.



> If he was nowhere near Full Power Oro - he wouldn't even think about challenging Itachi. "My teacher got wrecked and I am nowhere near his level but whatever". It simply doesn't make sense. At the very least he should be around Oro's general level but with a better anti-Itachi toolset. He simply wouldn't start hunting his brother if he wasn't ready.


Sasuke did not know Full-Power Orochimaru was inferior. All he knew was present Orochimaru was inferior and in-fact that is what he says. Beyond that I didn't expect you to play the match up doesn't matter and Sasuke is always rational in how he estimates his capabilities card. I mean really AP 



> Orochimaru wants Sasuke's body undamaged. Enemy wants Sasuke dead. I wonder what would Oro do...


Enemy gets Sasuke dead, by just letting Oro take his body, so rather than face Oro after fighting Sasuke I can see many character just being like K whatever you can have him.



> Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body and performed Fushi Tensei. And lost. I think it is fair. Sasuke didn't even need to ambush and attack him if you think about it. Oro lost the body snatching game.


So Orochimaru being extremely handicapped and being unable to fight with killer intent just doesn't matter. Really AP #dafuck



> Depends at what point Sasuke let Oro loose. And with Oro needing another Fushi Tensei contest... Point is - Orochimaru needs Sasuke alive and with undamaged body. His options are rather limited.


Orochimaru, "Hey bro, I know you want this emo bitch dead, but i'll deal with him for you and you don't even need to get your hands dirty"
Sasuke's Enemy, "Sounds like a pretty sweet deal and we don't even need to fight"
Orochimaru, "Yah bro, fuck  if this jack ass puts up a fight we can even team up on him"
Sasuke's Enemy, "Nice bro!"
Sasuke, "Oh Noez, what have I done...."

And que the deliverance music



> You think Kirin can't end Oro?


Probably not actually if he's in Yamata no Orochi Form. But yeah the problem is Sasuke would never survive to the point of using Kirin.



> Yeah. And Sasuke who was weaker than Orochimaru decided that he was ready for Itachi.


He did not know Full-Power Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi.



> Handicapped Sannin-level isn't enough to challenge Itachi. And you should think about that comment a little bit more. Karin had no idea who was Sasuke fighting with. And was disappointed seeing her idol beaten up. Sasuke simply corrected her outburst. That comment has no direct relation to his fight vs Deidara.


Really AP, Really. Literally we have a character here saying Sasuke underperformed to the standard of someone stronger than Orochimaru, and your just going to be K cool let's ignore that and move on.



> Orochimaru actually performed better than Jiraiya considering the latter had the Seal Key and ability to affect Kyubi through that. And was beaten up badly.


And it's stated he used the key where? 



> Sasuke decided that he was ready for Itachi. He had enough knowledge on both Orochimaru and Itachi to know the minimum requirements. Being around healthy Orochimaru's level + anti-Itachi moveset. Early Part 2 Sasuke is far from dumb. He carefully planned everything up to vs Itachi battle. If we are going to take your stance we have dumb Sasuke who doesn't know a single relevant thing about his goal. And that simply doesn't make sense.


  But literally that's how Sasuke was portrayed. He thought he had a chance and Itachi once again toyed with his ass, even when Itachi himself was handicapped the most he's ever been. 

-----

It's really not hard to understand what happened AP. Sasuke thought Orochimaru couldn't beat Itachi because he was weakened. He surpassed weakened Orochimaru so he thought he had a chance against Itachi, but he was horribly wrong and got toyed with again. He overestimated himself while underestimating Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (May 18, 2015)

The White Snake (and powers) jumped into Sasuke's body, but Sasuke maintained control. What's so complicated about that? Obviously Sasuke's psyche wasn't put into Orochimaru dying body, because he still had the Sharingan and his Curse Seal.​


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## Rocky (May 18, 2015)

Turrin, Sauce didn't take Orochimaru's body with Fushi Tensei.   

Why would he do that when Orochimaru's body was sickly and armless.

Orochimaru went into Sasuke's body, but Sauce retained his psyche.


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## LostSelf (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If you reread Asuma assessing Hidan and Kakuzu, and then assessing Itachi and Kisame, you'll see the difference. He had no clue what he was getting himself into against the first duo.​



I know it's different. They were in their village, they should've been more confident than when they were against Hidan and Kakuzu. You can see they still don't retreat even then they are closing their eyes trying to avoid genjutsu being helpless.

Kakashi as well comes with that desperate decision despite being a genius, and he still takes to fight Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The White Snake (and powers) jumped into Sasuke's body, but Sasuke maintained control. What's so complicated about that? Obviously Sasuke's psyche wasn't put into Orochimaru dying body, because he still had the Sharingan and his Curse Seal.​



 This. They're not even comparable.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The White Snake (and powers) jumped into Sasuke's body, but Sasuke maintained control. What's so complicated about that? Obviously Sasuke's psyche wasn't put into Orochimaru dying body, because he still had the Sharingan and his Curse Seal.​


Sasuke's psyche was put in Orochimaru's body, Sasuke simply retained his own body as well, just like Orochimaru has always retained his body, hence him being able to go his true form [WSM] when he faced Sasuke. The point being that Fuushi Tensei allows one to take over another's body, nowhere and I repeat nowhere is it ever stated to give the user the target's knowledge and skill with their Jutsu.

If that were the case Sasuke would have been able to summon 4 deceased legendary ninja, transform into Yamata no Orochi, and have thousands of Jutsu at his disposal. He would have been unstoppable for that point in the manga, and pretty much up until the War-Arc. That's not what we got like at all.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob is right. Orochimaru jumped in Sasuke's body, but he couldn't take over, instead he was(his chakra/being/soul) absorbed. 
Sasuke didn't take over Orochimaru's body. Not that it matters, its basically the same thing.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If you reread Asuma assessing Hidan and Kakuzu, and then assessing Itachi and Kisame, you'll see the difference. He had no clue what he was getting himself into against the first duo.​



What kind of elite jonin would be scared of losing to only two enemies?


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## DavyChan (May 19, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi

Orochimaru
Konan
Kisame
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara

Kakuzu
Sasori

Hidan



Zetsu


----------



## Ghost (May 19, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> Obito
> Nagato
> Itachi
> 
> ...



no                 .


----------



## RBL (May 19, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Prime Healthy Itachi



Obito
Nagato
Itachi

Kisame
Orochimaru
*Hebi Sasuke*
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Turrin (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Strategoob is right. Orochimaru jumped in Sasuke's body, but he couldn't take over, instead he was(his chakra/being/soul) absorbed.
> Sasuke didn't take over Orochimaru's body. Not that it matters, its basically the same thing.


No he's not correct.

Sasuke says:

Sasuke, "A white scaled serpent..."

Sasuke, "So this is your true form..."

WSM was Orochimaru's true form.  Kabuto says:

Kabuto, "That's the molted skin of the giant snake" "Does that mean it's too late and the ritual is already over!?"

Basically the WSM was Orochimaru's true body and after the Fuushi-Tensei ritual all that was left was it's skin. So where did it's true body go, the only place it could have; Sasuke took it over. And this is support by this bit of dialog:

Kabuto, "Presently you..." "Which one on earth are you?"

Sasuke, "I hijacked that guy completely"

Where Kabuto doesn't know which one Sasuke is and Sasuke says he hijacked Orochimaru, basically Orochimaru's body.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No he's not correct.
> 
> Sasuke says:
> 
> ...



Ok so if WSM was Oro's true form, and it was lying dead on the ground after the ritual, then Orochimaru went in Sasuke, not the otherway around.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jiraiya was equated to a level beneath Orochimaru by Orochimaru, whereas Orochimaru placed Itachi on a level (far) above him. And Orochimaru's the guy that fought both of them multiple times.​



true true, orochimaru considers himself much weaker than itachi
however itachi is the one who thinks jiriaya wont be put down all that easily. in any case sick dying itachi holding back cant be so much above the sanin despite his GG jutsu that people think somehow sasuke is above any sannin. am sorry I don't get it 

@otherposter sorry you replied to me, cant remember your name for the life of me. 
how does sasuke counter everything jiriaya has and why cant jiriaya counter sasuke jutsu. 

even genjutsu sasuke 1 shot at victory can be countered with a sensing barrier. 

Now back to strat. 

despite the different styles the sannin have do note sasuke only faired so well against itachi because he was prepared for the fight and knew itachi jutsu 

now u give the sanin full knowledge of what sasuke can do and give sasuke knowledge and they should be leaving him comfortably behind. 

worse if u give all parties no knowledge and he foolishly decides to engage tsunade in cqc, only to realize a chidori to the chest doesn't do shit and then he gets swatted like a fly 

I am ranting a little but the sanin global abilities well exceed sasukes. by a nasty margin 

sasuke would never manage to kill 4 bodies of pain. like never 
sasuke could not engage 5 susanoo clones for hours and not be killed like a bug 
sasuke facing Kn4 Naruto would have some level of success due to sharingan 

so in actual confrontation I don't think there is any canon situation the sannin have been in that sasuke would fair better, while every situation the sasuke has been in the sannin would have faired sooo much better

imagine deidara without knowledge fighting jiraiya. a toad drops on his head ze end. pulling c4 would hardly even be likely against someone like jiraiya, or orochimaru or tsunade


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## Turrin (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok so if WSM was Oro's true form, and it was lying dead on the ground after the ritual, then Orochimaru went in Sasuke, not the otherway around.


No it's skin was lying on the ground. And BTW it's always that the Fuushi-Tensei user takes their true body into the body of the target, that's why Orochimaru still has his WSM true form even after switching bodies multiple times.


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## Alex Payne (May 19, 2015)

An interesting turn of discussion. 





Turrin said:


> Hidden Snake Hands Sasuke could have just known himself. We know he could use Snake Kuchiyose with or w/o Orochimaru, and Shadow Snake hands is merely an application of that. Oral-Rebirth, he saw with his Sharingan activated right here:
> Yōton Chakra Mode
> 
> So it's not surprising that once he gained Orochimaru's body he was able to use that Jutsu.


 But you don't have any solid proof, do you. Btw, aside from those two jutsu Sasuke also showed Jagei Jubaku. Three jutsu used after the Ritual. And never after Orochimaru's banishing. Hmm.




Turrin said:


> Dude showed Killer intent against Sai and pretty sure he showed it in PII as well.


 It was genjutsu. Focus on Sharingan. And Sai commenting on looking into Sauce's eyes. Said genjutsu surprisingly wasn't snake-themed... I wonder why. Oh and Sasuke didn't use Killer Intent aside from that incident with Suigetsu/Jugo. Not before. Not since. 




Turrin said:


> So a stylistic choice of Genjutsu is a power up now. Come on AP, you must know this is weak sauce.


 Pre-Hebi Sasuke uses genjutsu. No snakes. Hebi uses one - snakes. Post-Hebi - no snakes. Plus interesting situation with DB stats - Sasuke having just 4.0 in genjutsu. While Orochimaru having 5.0. That's a lot of weak sauce. 




Turrin said:


> No that fits perfectly with what I said. He gained Orochimaru's body and it's passive traites, not Orochimaru's knowledge and Jutsu skills.


 He didn't gain his body. 



Turrin said:


> No he got his DNA and body sir. That's how Fuushi Tensei is stated to work:
> 
> _"A jutsu to obtain everlasting life by repeatedly transferring one's psyche into someone else's body."_


 Err. Yes? Psyche. 

psyche 1 
  (sī′kē)
n.
1. The spirit or soul.
2. Psychiatry The mind functioning as the center of thought, emotion, and behavior and consciously or unconsciously adjusting or mediating the body's responses to the social and physical environment.

Soul. Orochimaru transfers his own soul, overcomes that of his target and assimilates it. We saw his previous hosts in his Special Dimension. Sasuke was able to overpower Orochimaru's soul(or psyche if you like it) and retain control on this new amalgamation. 



Turrin said:


> No he didn't. He said nether himself nor weakened Orochimaru could do it.


 Except healthy Oro couldn't do it either. Yeah. And Sasuke specifically states that by merging their powers they could possibly do it. Which do you think is stronger - Orochimaru using Sasuke's body or start of P2 Sasuke + Orochimaru as a team? 



Turrin said:


> Hashirama, Obito, and Nagato are also Naruto who failed, that doesn't stop them all from being at least slightly stronger than the Sasuke's equivalent rival.


 This is getting crazier and crazier. Obito lost everything related to his rival after Rin's death. Nagato didn't even have a rival. And Hashirama failed for a different reason. Jiraiya was simply not strong enough to either stop(like Hashirama) or "save"(like Naruto) Orochimaru. It's that simple. 



Turrin said:


> Sasuke did not know Full-Power Orochimaru was inferior. All he knew was present Orochimaru was inferior and in-fact that is what he says. Beyond that I didn't expect you to play the match up doesn't matter and Sasuke is always rational in how he estimates his capabilities card. I mean really AP


 Except he knew. He flat out said so when he ambushed Oro. "You were unable to get Itachi so you set your eyes on me". Trying to fight Itachi and later appearing before Sasuke was before Oro vs Hiruzen. He knew for a fact that Orochimaru before losing his arms was weaker. Pre-MS Sasuke is one of the most rational and calculating characters in the manga. It is easy to forget that considering his MS-caused brain damage. But he was indeed quite collected and calculating.  



Turrin said:


> Enemy gets Sasuke dead, by just letting Oro take his body, so rather than face Oro after fighting Sasuke I can see many character just being like K whatever you can have him.


 And I can see many characters simply not trusting a creepy snakeman to not backstab them to "test his new powers". 



Turrin said:


> So Orochimaru being extremely handicapped and being unable to fight with killer intent just doesn't matter. Really AP #dafuck


 Orochimaru's condition is irrelevant. Sasuke didn't coerce him to perform Fushi Tensei on him. He didn't actually coerce him to take him and train him even. It was Orochimaru's own proposition and decision. It was his "game" with his rules after the jutsu went on. And he lost. It's like if someone tries to mug you but you were able to fend him off. Lousy mugger escapes but drops 10 bucks. I don't think you getting said 10 bucks is _unfair_. 



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru, "Hey bro, I know you want this emo bitch dead, but i'll deal with him for you and you don't even need to get your hands dirty"
> Sasuke's Enemy, "Sounds like a pretty sweet deal and we don't even need to fight"
> Orochimaru, "Yah bro, fuck  if this jack ass puts up a fight we can even team up on him"
> Sasuke's Enemy, "Nice bro!"
> ...


 Any notable shinobi knows enough about Orochimaru. To both not trust him and not let him get crazy power ups. There is nothing stopping Oro from attacking Sauce's opponent for the lulz. And nothing stopping Oro from simply attacking Sasuke's opponent right away. For the lulz. 



Turrin said:


> Probably not actually if he's in Yamata no Orochi Form. But yeah the problem is Sasuke would never survive to the point of using Kirin.


 Never is a rather strong word to use here. Anyway - I don't consider Pre-Hebi Sasuke stronger than weakened Oro. Hebi Sasuke is a completely different story. 



Turrin said:


> He did not know Full-Power Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi.


 Sigh. He did. Proved earlier. Next.



Turrin said:


> Really AP, Really. Literally we have a character here saying Sasuke underperformed to the standard of someone stronger than Orochimaru, and your just going to be K cool let's ignore that and move on.


 Sasuke gets beaten up by unknown Akatsuki member. That's all Karin knew. Akatsuki have people both stronger than Orochimaru and around his level. She had absolutely no knowledge about the actual strength of Sasuke's opponent. Imagine for the sake of argument that Sasuke fought Nagato. Kishi asspuled some shit and he won. Escaped suicidal Chibaku Tensei via Manda or something crazy like that. Appeared beaten up. You think Karin would say something different? I don't. Kishimoto used that instance to simply enforce that Pre-Hebi Sasuke's victory over Orochimaru was because the latter was weakened. Which I don't disagree with. 



Turrin said:


> And it's stated he used the key where?


 The whole 4-tail incident was because Jiraiya tried to open a seal a little bit... 



Turrin said:


> But literally that's how Sasuke was portrayed. He thought he had a chance and Itachi once again toyed with his ass, even when Itachi himself was handicapped the most he's ever been.
> 
> -----
> 
> It's really not hard to understand what happened AP. Sasuke thought Orochimaru couldn't beat Itachi because he was weakened. He surpassed weakened Orochimaru so he thought he had a chance against Itachi, but he was horribly wrong and got toyed with again. He overestimated himself while underestimating Itachi.


 Sasuke knew Healthy Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi. Proven above. He understands that his victory over Oro was mainly because of Oro's condition. He says so himself. Now take those two pieces of evidence and think. Why would Sasuke instantly start Itachi Hunt after absorbing Orochimaru? Maybe because he was actually around healthy Oro's level but with mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan?


As for Sasuke absorbing Orochimaru's body... This is kinda crazy but interesting. White Snake didn't look any different prior and after Oro tried to get that young body for himself. I've found me some translation with RAW text



> 15
> あれは巨大蛇の脱皮。。。ということはすでに儀式は終わったのか?!
> 
> That's the molted skin of the giant white serpent...has the ritual already finished?!



 and played with google translate a bit and it isn't very clear. Might be a fancy name for White Snake Form. You should check it yourself. Because everything we know about Fushi Tensei points towards Soul Transferring... Oh, sorry. Psyche Transferring. Plus White Snake body lying around(and later used by Kabuto) not even closely resembles molted skin.



Turrin said:


> No it's skin was lying on the ground. And BTW it's always that the Fuushi-Tensei user takes their true body into the body of the target, that's why Orochimaru still has his WSM true form even after switching bodies multiple times.


Now this is false. Soul is enough to retain physical perks. That's how Edo Tensei works. That's how Kakashi was able to get Mangekyo set from Obito. Orochimaru can recreate his whole being just from Anko's Cursed Seal. You think he can't shape his new body accordingly?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No it's skin was lying on the ground. And BTW it's always that the Fuushi-Tensei user takes their true body into the body of the target, that's why Orochimaru still has his WSM true form even after switching bodies multiple times.



Orochimaru cast the jutsu on Sasuke, and his body or skin or body or whatever it is was left on the ground lifeless. I am pretty sure it was Orochimaru who went in Sasuke, not the other way around. If Sasuke went inside Orochimaru, then we'd see Sasuke's lifeless body lying around somewhere.
Orochimaru even used the CS on Sasuke as a medium and emerged out. 
Come on Turrin, it is pretty obvious who was in who.


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## Alex Payne (May 19, 2015)

I wonder what's Kai thinking about his thread. Must be laughing maniacally.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

well to be honest people its not too ridiculous that sasuke would be considered close to orochimaru level after absorbing him or even above

however what determines the difference to me is their techniques and abilities being at a certain level doesn't mean much if you don't have the right abilities for the fight 

simple example despite A and onoki being at the same level obito will instantly troll onoki while he would have more difficulty with A

sasuke was confident because he got a power boost and he has the best thing to fight a sharingan. 
Another sharingan of his own 

this is why he was confident, I don't think it has to do with him being above orochimaru, or thinking he was 

he simply had some of orochimaru techniques which worked to his advantage- oral rebirth to avoid amaterasu or he would have died 
sharingan to counter tskuyomi 

that's all he thought he needed people! and if that was all itachi had he would have been right and he would have killed itachi 

what orochimaru probably might have known or seen that sasuke didn't was itachi has susanoo

which in the end is what made itachi truly superior in that fight. no susanoo itachi dies due to kirin. that was sasuke entire plan 

*not hard to be confident when you know the enemy jutsu, have counters to them +have an unavoidable technique of your own that the enemy knows nothing about *

in short sasuke confidence was justified but not because he was stronger than orochimaru but he was better suited to face itachi than orochimaru was


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## Kai (May 19, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke couldn't use a jutsu like Edo Tensei because Orochimaru's arms were still sealed within the Shinigami anyways.

Everything Orochimaru displayed against KN4? In line with what Sasuke showed after absorbing Oro — Hebi summons, Hebi modifications, Hebi substitutions. Essentially Orochimaru's inherent abilities.

It's also important to note the contract with snakes likely has little to nothing to do with fusing with Oro.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> Hebi Sasuke couldn't use a jutsu like Edo Tensei because Orochimaru's arms were still sealed within the Shinigami anyways.
> 
> Everything Orochimaru displayed against KN4? In line with what Sasuke showed after absorbing Oro ? Hebi summons, Hebi modifications, Hebi substitutions. Essentially Orochimaru's inherent abilities.
> 
> It's also important to note the contract with snakes likely has little to nothing to do with fusing with Oro.



true 
however sasuke also lacked orochimaru body manipulation techniques 

he absorbed orochimaru but obviously not entirely as he was also keeping him surpressed

the contract with snakes has nothing to do with fusing with oro, he had that before and after the fusion

I don't think fusing with oro would have given sasuke edo tensei even if orochimaru had his arm when he was trolled by sasuke 

absorbing orochimaru would not give sasuke knowledge on particular techniques. oral rebirth is easy to decipher, edo tensei requires specific rituals 

sasuke also lacked kusanagi


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## Alex Payne (May 19, 2015)

Sasuke at that time outright detested Orochimaru's methods. He won't use a jutsu like Edo Tensei for a simple reason of human sacrifices/forcing the dead to abide. Not saying that he could though. 

As for what he got. I think he got Snake Contract before. Maybe Hidden Snakes Hands too. Ritual gave him stuff like Jagei Jubaku, White Snake regen, Oral Rebirth and arguably enhanced genjutsu with stronger chakra/larger chakra pool. Oral Rebirth is one of the key moves to use against Itachi(and a decently strong move by itself). I don't think it is usable without White Snake powers.


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## Kai (May 19, 2015)

I agree with AP on the "white snake" tidbit. Orochimaru possesses the power of the white snake, and that power manifesting in Sasuke after the latter's fight with Deidara proves one of Orochimaru's powers benefiting Sasuke.

The fusion would probably emerge a lot stronger if
A) Orochimaru was at the height of his power, possessing both arms
B) Both parties shared a power bond, not one of oppression

Like Icegaze said, Sasuke probably also lacked the body modifications such as neck extension and systematic regeneration. However, we've seen him perform Hebi ninjutsu without hand seals and I don't see a reason why Sasuke couldn't perform any and all of those.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Also the thing is, armless Oro is basically Oro minus ET.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 19, 2015)

To be honest I think that still sealed arms was a retcon. Orochimaru didn't show or even hint that his condition is more about arms and not about the whole body degenerating due to being weak.


----------



## Kai (May 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also the thing is, armless Oro is basically Oro minus ET.


That's the only difference that mattered to the plot, but if we already understand Oro's fascination with ninjutsu then it's a big deal.

Theoretically, Orochimaru with both his arms returned should be on another level than the Orochimaru we witnessed during Shippuden (i.e the Oro Sasuke absorbed). 

Too bad that, with Kishimoto's direction of Orochimaru's character, his arms' worth of ninjutsu has become solely defined by Edo Tensei.


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

Nagato / Itachi
Obito
Orochimaru (pt. 1)
Sasori
Deidara / Kisame - Hebi Sasuke falls here.
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan / Zetsu



Alex Payne said:


> To be honest I think that still sealed arms was a retcon. Orochimaru didn't show or even hint that his condition is more about arms and not about the whole body degenerating due to being weak.



His behavior in the Search for Tsunade arc would indicate otherwise. If it was just a simple matter of switching bodies I doubt he would have bothered seeking her out. And it would've made Hiruzen's sacrifice somewhat trivial too.


----------



## Turrin (May 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> But you don't have any solid proof, do you.


Solid proof of what, that Sasuke didn't automatically gain Orochimaru's knowledge and proficiency with Oro's skills? Yes I do have proof. Right here:

Sasuke, "Is this the "White Snake's" power....?"

Sasuke questions if his faster recovery rate is the White-Snake's power. If he really gained all of Orochimaru's knowledge of how Orochimaru's abilities work and are performed, that wouldn't be a question, he would already know it's the WS's power and expect to recover faster. But he doesn't. Beyond that Orochimaru also says at the end of the Itachi fight:

Orochimaru, "I'll lend you my power..."

If Sasuke already had all of Orochimaru's power, what is there to lend him exactly?

Zetsu also says:

"OROCHIMARU'S CHAKRA, WHICH HE ABSORBED AND HAD BEEN SUPPRESSING, HAS COME TO THE FORE...!!--"

So he had not gained Orochimaru's chakra ether, as he had been suppressing it the entire time as to prevent Orochimaru from taking over. 

So if Sasuke did not gain Orochimaru's knowledge of his thousands of Jutsu and how to perform him or Orochimaru's chakra. Sasuke clearly does not have anywhere near all of Orochimaru's power at his disposal. He has Orochimaru's WSM Body passive perks and that's it.



> Btw, aside from those two jutsu Sasuke also showed Jagei Jubaku. Three jutsu used after the Ritual. And never after Orochimaru's banishing. Hmm.


Jagei Jubaku is just another application of Kuchiyose: Snakes.



> It was genjutsu. Focus on Sharingan. And Sai commenting on looking into Sauce's eyes. Said genjutsu surprisingly wasn't snake-themed... I wonder why. Oh and Sasuke didn't use Killer Intent aside from that incident with Suigetsu/Jugo. Not before. Not since.


Alex, literally Orochimaru's "killer intent" is called [殺気] in the original text, which translates to blood-thirst. So it has nothing to do with whether someone's killed before. Sasuke has certainly shown blood-thirst before he absorbed Orochimaru, such as when he used Curse-Seal, tried to kill Itachi in the hallway, and tried to kill Naruto at the Valley of the end to awaken Mangekyo Sharingan. So he's always had blood-thirst:
Darui already tried that and Sasuke displayed no visible signs when he molded chakra to diffuse Darui's Suiton enhanced Raiton: Kangekiha



> Pre-Hebi Sasuke uses genjutsu. No snakes. Hebi uses one - snakes. Post-Hebi - no snakes.


Sasuke's never used Genjutsu Bushin since then, ether, which is the only Genjutsu he used that had snakes as the motif. 



> Plus interesting situation with DB stats - Sasuke having just 4.0 in genjutsu. While Orochimaru having 5.0.


I don't follow the point.



> He didn't gain his body.



Sasuke says:

Sasuke, "A white scaled serpent..."

Sasuke, "So this is your true form..."

WSM was Orochimaru's true form. Kabuto says:

Kabuto, "That's the molted skin of the giant snake" "Does that mean it's too late and the ritual is already over!?"

Basically the WSM was Orochimaru's true body and after the Fuushi-Tensei ritual all that was left was it's skin. So where did it's true body go, the only place it could have; Sasuke took it over. And this is support by this bit of dialog:

Kabuto, "Presently you..." "Which one on earth are you?"

Sasuke, "I hijacked that guy completely"

Where Kabuto doesn't know which one Sasuke is and Sasuke says he hijacked Orochimaru, basically Orochimaru's body.



> Soul. Orochimaru transfers his own soul, overcomes that of his target and assimilates it. We saw his previous hosts in his Special Dimension. Sasuke was able to overpower Orochimaru's soul(or psyche if you like it) and retain control on this new amalgamation.


See above



> Except healthy Oro couldn't do it either.


And Sasuke didn't know that



> Which do you think is stronger - Orochimaru using Sasuke's body or start of P2 Sasuke + Orochimaru as a team?


Relevance? 



> This is getting crazier and crazier. Obito lost everything related to his rival after Rin's death. Nagato didn't even have a rival. And Hashirama failed for a different reason. Jiraiya was simply not strong enough to either stop(like Hashirama) or "save"(like Naruto) Orochimaru. It's that simple.


Jiraiya and Orochimaru never had a final battle like Hashirama and Madara. 



> Except he knew. He flat out said so when he ambushed Oro. "You were unable to get Itachi so you set your eyes on me". Trying to fight Itachi and later appearing before Sasuke was before Oro vs Hiruzen. He knew for a fact that Orochimaru before losing his arms was weaker.


Actually he says Itachi was "too hard work" so he set his sights on the young Sasuke. He doesn't say Itachi was impossible for Orochimaru. Sasuke also provides no time-line for when he's speaking, I.E. he could and probably is talking about weakened Orochimaru. 



> Pre-MS Sasuke is one of the most rational and calculating characters in the manga. It is easy to forget that considering his MS-caused brain damage. But he was indeed quite collected and calculating.


No he is not. Sasuke consistently acted like a a jackass when it came to Itachi. He charged into the cave where Itachi was hiding alone and got pissed when Team Hebi came to back him up. When Kisame confronts Team Hebi, Karin specifically tells Sasuke the wise thing would be for them to all take down Kisame together and than take on Itachi as a collective unit and Sasuke says no it's myyy revenge, like a whiny brat. 

Karin: Sasuke! You mustn't...! // We should take this guy out and go as a team!!
Sasuke: Karin... the three of you are to wait here. // This revenge belongs to me




> And I can see many characters simply not trusting a creepy snakeman to not backstab them to "test his new powers".


And I can see many characters being like K and just leaving. It all depends on the context of the fight and what both parties are trying to achieve. But overall releasing Orochimaru is not going to be a dependable strategy in most instances.



> Orochimaru's condition is irrelevant. Sasuke didn't coerce him to perform Fushi Tensei on him. He didn't actually coerce him to take him and train him even. It was Orochimaru's own proposition and decision. It was his "game" with his rules after the jutsu went on. And he lost. It's like if someone tries to mug you but you were able to fend him off. Lousy mugger escapes but drops 10 bucks. I don't think you getting said 10 bucks is unfair.


Were talking strength here AP. Clearly within that context it was far from a fair fight.



> Never is a rather strong word to use here. Anyway - I don't consider Pre-Hebi Sasuke stronger than weakened Oro. Hebi Sasuke is a completely different story.


So Pre-Hebi-Sasuke is inferior to weakened Orochimaru, but Hebi-Sasuke whose shown a grand total of 3 new Jutsu, with only 1 of those Jutsu him being likely to have not been capable off before, suddenly is >= to Full strength Orochimaru. How does that make sense again.



> Sasuke gets beaten up by unknown Akatsuki member. That's all Karin knew. Akatsuki have people both stronger than Orochimaru and around his level. She had absolutely no knowledge about the actual strength of Sasuke's opponent. Imagine for the sake of argument that Sasuke fought Nagato. Kishi asspuled some shit and he won. Escaped suicidal Chibaku Tensei via Manda or something crazy like that. Appeared beaten up. You think Karin would say something different? I don't. Kishimoto used that instance to simply enforce that Pre-Hebi Sasuke's victory over Orochimaru was because the latter was weakened. Which I don't disagree with.


Dude, Karin is a super advanced Sensors, she knows the quality of enemy Sasuke was up against. Yet she directly does not think Sasuke performed the way someone stronger than Orochimaru should. Sasuke does not deny this, but instead talks about how Orochimaru was weakened. 



> The whole 4-tail incident was because Jiraiya tried to open a seal a little bit...


And I repeat, it says he used the key to stop KN4 where?



> Why would Sasuke instantly start Itachi Hunt after absorbing Orochimaru? Maybe because he was actually around healthy Oro's level but with mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan?


Sasuke did not know Itachi was stronger than Healthy-Orochimaru, as I explained above. In-fact if Orochimaru was healthy in PII he would have been stronger than Itachi due to further Edo-Tensei mastery, allowing him to now summon back deceased legends at near full power. So it's actually not even true.

Sasuke went to hunt Itachi, because he always overestimated his capabilities when it came to clashing with Itachi. Hence him acting irrationally in his pursuit of Itachi later in that arc. 

Plus you keep talking about how Sasuke going after Itachi means he considered himself stronger than Orochimaru, but fail to acknowledge that a weakened Orochimaru believed his power could defeat Itachi's Susano'o Jutsu that just countered Hebi-Sasuke's ultimate triumph-card [Kirin]. So based on the same logic your applying Weakened-Orochimaru > Hebi-Sasuke.

Orochimaru, "I'll lend you my power..."

Orochimaru, "I am needed am I not" "Sasuke-Kun....."



> and played with google translate a bit and it isn't very clear. Might be a fancy name for White Snake Form. You should check it yourself. Because everything we know about Fushi Tensei points towards Soul Transferring... Oh, sorry. Psyche Transferring. Plus White Snake body lying around(and later used by Kabuto) not even closely resembles molted skin.


I don't need google translate, i'm telling you right now these Kanji [脱皮], mean shedding or molting, and are referring to the WS we see there being merely it's shedded skin. But here's reference:


Than every other translations also calls it molted skin:

"That's the molted skin of the giant white serpent...has the ritual already finished?!"

"Kabuto: The giant snake's molting...
The ritual's over already?!"

"That’s the skin of the giant snake…
That means the ritual is already over!?"

"Kabuto: The giant snake's molted skin..."

Darui already tried that and Sasuke displayed no visible signs when he molded chakra to diffuse Darui's Suiton enhanced Raiton: Kangekiha

Are you going to argue with every translator that's ever look at this text.


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## Alex Payne (May 19, 2015)

Yagura said:


> His behavior in the Search for Tsunade arc would indicate otherwise. If it was just a simple matter of switching bodies I doubt he would have bothered seeking her out. And it would've made Hiruzen's sacrifice somewhat trivial too.


3 year cooldown + lack of a good body is enough to try and get Tsunade's healing in my opinion. Sasuke for some reason wasn't the perfect host yet. While available fodders weren't strong enough to house Oro for long as we now know.


@Turrin

This is starting to get pointless. Sasuke tells Naruto that beating Itachi for Orochimaru is impossible. He ambushes Oro and tells him that he became too weak for Sasuke to consider giving him his body. Then Sasuke tells Orochimaru that he went after him because Itachi was too strong for him. Rambles about how awesome Uchihas are. Later uses the same genjutsu that Itachi used vs Oro. Said the exact same words. And didn't even finish the sentence as if knowing that Oro have heard the exact same phrase before.

Sasuke knew that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. This ancient excuse "he was simply too strong for the Ritual, actual fight is different" has no place here. There is no reason to overcomplicate the manga. "He was talking about weakened Oro", "he didn't knew that healthy Oro was weaker" are plain silly. You think Kishimoto would really bother with all these nuances? 

But fuck it. Don't bother with all that. Last question from me: If take your stance we'd have enough info to conclude that Hebi Sasuke simply didn't stand a chance against Itachi. Before Uchiha Battle happened. "I see. Hebi Sasuke is roughly as strong a gimped Oro. While healthy Oro is still weaker than Sasuke's Big Bro. I wonder how would this upcoming fight with Itachi go." Does this makes sense to you? Did you really think that back then?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> That's the only difference that mattered to the plot, but if we already understand Oro's fascination with ninjutsu then it's a big deal.
> 
> Theoretically, Orochimaru with both his arms returned should be on another level than the Orochimaru we witnessed during Shippuden (i.e the Oro Sasuke absorbed).
> 
> Too bad that, with Kishimoto's direction of Orochimaru's character, his arms' worth of ninjutsu has become solely defined by Edo Tensei.





Alex Payne said:


> To be honest I think that still sealed arms was a retcon. Orochimaru didn't show or even hint that his condition is more about arms and not about the whole body degenerating due to being weak.





This.

The armless Oro thing was a retcon.

After Oro lost his arms, he wasn't able to use them at all. They were hanging limp. In part 2, his arms were able to function pretty well.

And we've seen him fight Hiruzen, and he didn't use anything major besides ET,  and I don't think he has anything stronger than ET. If he had, it would be hinted in the DB or in the manga.

So all in all, the only thing "armless" Orochimaru was lacking was his mediocre version of ET.


And oh,"Prime" Orochimaru in action : 

wasn't the perfect host yet


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

@ Grimmjowsensei: Prime Orochimaru summons Minato. GG Itachi. 


Alex Payne said:


> 3 year cooldown + lack of a good body is enough to try and get Tsunade's healing in my opinion. Sasuke for some reason wasn't the perfect host yet. While available fodders weren't strong enough to house Oro for long as we now know.



I'm not seeing it. His reason for seeking her out was explicitly to repair his arms... we just know now that he meant spiritually rather just physically. I don't recall him saying anything about her stopping his then body from degenerating. 

That said, the interesting thing to take away from this is that Tsunade can apparently conjure up spirit arms.


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## StickaStick (May 19, 2015)

Personally all this does is remind me how badly Kishi fucked up Oro's character and relevance to the plot (.e.g.; PTI vs PTII). One of the many victims of the whole Sasuke-Itachi atrocity that Kishi put together, sadly.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 19, 2015)

To think of it, asking Tsunade to heal his arms makes no sense at start because its soul was inside the Shinigami stomach, so one can say Kishi already fucks up the plot since Part 1.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

lol  wasn't a retcon 
by part 2 he jumped bodies 
odd how people don't know this yet claim to read the manga
 

jumping bodies doesn't bring his jutsu back considering his spiritual arms that hold the key to his jutsu were sealed


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

I definitely agree with those saying Edo Tensei is Orochimaru's ultimate jutsu which allowed him to  stay relevant in the story considering the weird direction Kishi went with the plot, for sure. That being said though, I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of ignoring everything else sealed  away by Shiki Fūin. I wouldn't  underestimate Orochimaru like that.

This is the same dude who's  running around with the personal summons of first two Hokage  (Hashirama's Rashōmon and Tobirama's Edo Tensei) like it's no big deal.  And the legendary Kusanagi. An item that serves as a counterpart to the  Totsuka and is also one of the three treasures along with the Yata  Mirror and Yasaka Magatama.

So who knows what else is up Orochimaru's sleeves. Given what we saw from him already . . . probably _a lot _of interesting and useful stuff.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

Orochimaru got pathetic individual portrayal in comparison to Jiraiya, yet the Sannin are supposed to be viewed as equals. It's inconsistent and just horrible writing in general.

Jiraiya was acknowledged as one capable of giving _Pain_ a fight, and Orochimaru by virtue of being his peer should be capable of the same feat. That fact is why it's difficult for me to believe that Hebi Sasuke was superior to a full-power Orochimaru when the young Uchiha got trolled by a near-blind Itachi at death's door.


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2015)

I just clicked on this thread twice looking for your post because I thought you were Strategoob.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

I've gone through the change.


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

I don't think Orochimaru's showing is bad at all compared to Jiraiya's. 

In fact I might even be inclined to think the inverse given how we saw him perform versus Jiraiya in the Sannin fight.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

to be honest I don't get why people say orochimaru showing weren't great. 
granted he never had a fight to the death without being nerfed in some way but still he showed jutsu that clearly show he is on jiriaya level

he is simply a bad match up for itachi while jiriaya isn't necessarily. While oro is entirely screwed by susanoo 

jiraiya in Sm got sound jutsu to laughably by pass susanoo. 

So it depends on the match up really, but based on showings orochimaru and jiraiya are at the same level


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## Ghost (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya was acknowledged as one capable of giving _Pain_ a fight, and Orochimaru by virtue of being his peer should be capable of the same feat.



But we all know that Jiraiya gets no diffed by unrestricted Pain in a neutral location.


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## Puppetry (May 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I definitely agree with those saying Edo Tensei is Orochimaru's ultimate jutsu which allowed him to  stay relevant in the story considering the weird direction Kishi went with the plot, for sure. That being said though, I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of ignoring everything else sealed  away by Shiki Fūin. I wouldn't  underestimate Orochimaru like that.



Yes, but (and this is the point I was making in the Sakura thread) it's contextually irrelevant. How are you supposed to factor that into Battledome match ups? It's no different than Sasori's 150+ puppets that we never saw. At best it's a nice addition to his portrayal, but there's no way to translate it into usable feats.

Edit: I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Portrayal matters, and should be discussed, but there needs to be some degree of specificity. Orochimaru simply having access to more jutsu is way too general to be of much use.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

kishi seems to think jiriaya doesn't get no diff'd by pain though 
 
also its up to fan bias really but I don't see why kishi would try to illustrate pain not being able to no diff jiriaya yet people claim he can 

CST and CT are basically never happening with all paths active. which means if those jutsu show up its far from no diff seeing that 5/6 paths would be down 

neutral location, give jiriaya knowledge and I see no reason why he cant take out 5/6. considering with no knowledge he took out 4 something people like to forget

note jiriaya was just as nerfed by kishi as pain was 

jiriaya forgot he could use 
FCD- this could have crushed the 3 paths of pain off the bat. preta cant absorb that
 frog katas, human realm could have died if jiriaya used the jutsu since he should be able to 
sensing was basically retconned, 
frog call was as well 

so those are 4 critical jutsu jiraiya was deprived of 

sensing and katas would have helped massively, since he wont have been blindsided by asura and taijutsu could still have been an option
frog call would mean he could immobilize them quick without the need of using frog song 

so yh jiraiya from DB4 retcon is quite a lot stronger than what was shown in their fight as is pain. 

so no it would never be a low diff match for either.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

Yagura said:


> I don't think Orochimaru's showing is bad at all compared to Jiraiya's.
> 
> In fact I might even be inclined to think the inverse given how we saw him perform versus Jiraiya in the Sannin fight.



It's supposed to be Tsunade ≤ Jiraiya ≤ Orochimaru ≤ Tsunade, so yeah.

I don't have a problem with Orochimaru being able to defeat Jiraiya. I have a problem with Hebi Sasuke being seen as > the Sannin when he was completely played by deathbed Itachi.



ghostcrawler said:


> But we all know that Jiraiya gets no diffed by unrestricted Pain in a neutral location.



Within the context of the story, Pain was not so far above any of the Sannin that he'd annihilate one effortlessly, even if you think that would be the case under certain circumstances here in the Battledome.


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## Turrin (May 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Sasuke tells Naruto that beating Itachi for Orochimaru is impossible. He ambushes Oro and tells him that he became too weak for Sasuke to consider giving him his body. Then Sasuke tells Orochimaru that he went after him because Itachi was too strong for him. Rambles about how awesome Uchihas are. Later uses the same genjutsu that Itachi used vs Oro. Said the exact same words. And didn't even finish the sentence as if knowing that Oro have heard the exact same phrase before.


AP again please show Sasuke knew Itachi was stronger than full power Orochimaru. Citing incorrect translations and a parallel, is not evidence. If anything the parallel would only reinforce that Sasuke thought Itachi beat a weakened Orochimaru.



> Sasuke knew that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. This ancient excuse "he was simply too strong for the Ritual, actual fight is different" has no place here. There is no reason to overcomplicate the manga. "He was talking about weakened Oro", "he didn't knew that healthy Oro was weaker" are plain silly. You think Kishimoto would really bother with all these nuances?


LOL, AP he literally brought up Orochimaru being weakened many many times in the manga 



> : If take your stance we'd have enough info to conclude that Hebi Sasuke simply didn't stand a chance against Itachi. Before Uchiha Battle happened. "I see. Hebi Sasuke is roughly as strong a gimped Oro. While healthy Oro is still weaker than Sasuke's Big Bro. I wonder how would this upcoming fight with Itachi go." Does this makes sense to you? Did you really think that back then?


No I didn't think that back then, because I knew Itachi would win and I knew Sasuke wasn't as strong as a fusion between Oro and Sasuke:



-------

Now please answer my questions AP. 

Naruto went after Sasuke so by your logic Wind-Arc Naruto > Orochimaru, because he knew Sasuke beat Orochimaru. Team 10 must be stronger than Asuma, Team 10, Kotetsu, Aoba, etc... because they went after Kakuzu and Hidan knowing they beat them. Ei must be stronger than B, since he went after Sasuke knowing he captured B. Sandaime Raikage must be stronger than Pain, since Kabuto sent him after Naruto knowing Naruto defeated Pain. And most importantly weakened Orochimaru took on Itachi's Susano'o that countered Hebi-Sasuke's strongest attack. By your own logic that means Orochimaru must consider himself stronger than Hebi-Sasuke despite being weakened, because otherwise he wouldn't attempt to take on Itachi's Jutsu, which was stronger than Hebi-Sasuke. So does your own logic not dictate that Hebi-Sasuke > Full-Power Orochimaru > Weakened Orochimaru > Hebi-Sasuke?

Do you really think this is a good way to judge character strength? Do I really need to make the tier rankings based around this concept, to show how absolutely silly as hell things end up.

Isn't a bit more rational to think Sasuke ether went after Itachi because he thought Itachi beat Orochimaru when he was weakened? Or that Sasuke simply saw red and targeted Itachi despite knowning his chances weren't great? Or Sasuke thought he was simply a much better type match up for Itachi than Orochimaru?


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## Sadgoob (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya was acknowledged as one capable of giving _Pain_ a fight, and Orochimaru by virtue of being his peer should be capable of the same feat. That fact is why it's difficult for me to believe that Hebi Sasuke was superior to a full-power Orochimaru when the young Uchiha *got trolled by a near-blind Itachi at death's door*.



(after finally controlling his dream vessel.)​


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Yes, but (and this is the point I was making in the Sakura thread) it's contextually irrelevant. How are you supposed to factor that into Battledome match ups? It's no different than Sasori's 150+ puppets that we never saw. At best it's a nice addition to his portrayal, but there's no way to translate it into usable feats.
> 
> Edit: I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Portrayal matters, and should be discussed, but there needs to be some degree of specificity. Orochimaru simply having access to more jutsu is way too general to be of much use.



Well, I'm not someone who relies on feats alone. I take everything the author throws at us into account: feats, statements, and databook information. Everything canon.

You factor that in the Battledome by granting Orochimaru _the_ _benefit of the doubt_ in match-ups he should win based on his portrayal. 

I'll give you an example of what I mean. The Sannin are supposed to be viewed as equals, right? Or at the very least around the same level. So we can use their relationship to help gauge where Orochimaru lies on the power scale. Take Kisame. He admitted inferiority to a Sannin. So in Kisame vs. Orochimaru match-ups I'm going to assume the jutsu Orochimaru _has _shown on-panel will be effective against him. And by extension of that match-up Orochimaru should perform just as well against _other_ shinobi around Kisame's level, like the rest of the mid-tier Akatsuki members. 

Don't get the impression I'm advocating for picking random jutsu out of  thin air and giving them to Orochimaru and other characters. That would be bad.


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## Sadgoob (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't have a problem with Orochimaru being able to defeat Jiraiya. I have a problem with Hebi Sasuke being seen as > the Sannin when he was completely played by deathbed Itachi.



Itachi defeated Orochimaru in his "dream vessel" in a panel despite (an already dying) Itachi having been stabbed in the leg, burned, endured Tsukuyomi backfiring, gone completely blind, and drained. 

He treated Sasuke pulling a Sannin out of his hat like it was nothing. _Less_ than nothing. "" Sasuke may as well have thrown a shuriken at him for all the worry it caused.

Hence Itachi being "overrated" by a fair chunk of people, and why many consider him much closer to being a peer of the other Akatsuki doujutsu user (as arguably portrayed) than any Sannin.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Within the context of the story, Pain was not so far above any of the Sannin that he'd annihilate one effortlessly, even if you think that would be the case under certain circumstances here in the Battledome.



That was the case. Pain underestimated Jiraiya and would've lost under certain circumstances based on that. That's why there was a big deal about making Pain underestimate Jiraiya. Without underestimating Jiraiya, Pain could, and was, effortlessly taking Jiraiya.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

Stage 4 Susano'o is the pinnacle of Itachi's power though. Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi, so it'd only make sense that a fight between the two where Itachi _began with that power_ would end in favor of the Uchiha. Itachi against Sasuke was more a game than it was a fight. According to Obito, Itachi had everything Sasuke did or could have used covered. It just didn't seem like a fight between two that were close in power...

Keep in mind that this is only based off Jiraiya's portrayal against Pain, who is Itachi's superior. If Itachi can lol all over the Sannin without trouble, then the comments made by Zetsu and Pain himself shouldn't exist. Unless, of course, we operate under the belief that Itachi is Pain's peer.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

pain was nerfed as was jiriaya 
who still took out 4. 

so there is no situation where pain drops jiriaya effortlessly.


@rocky I think orochimaru knew itachi had susanoo hence why he felt he was much weaker. notice despite susanoo appearing and orochimaru being  sharingan fan girl he showed no marvel at susanoo appearance, which to me points to the fact that he might have seen it before, no different from itachi seeing 8 headed snake 

what oro didn't know about was totsuka 

sasuke thought himself superior to itachi because he had a plan in place and had counters to tskuyomi and amaterasu which are only but a fraction of itachi power

If itachi seriously tried to kill hebi sasuke it wouldn't have lasted 10 seconds. he runs as sasuke with V4 susanoo and trolls. nothing sasuke can do about that.


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## Sadgoob (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Unless, of course, we operate under the belief that Itachi is Pain's peer.



Naruto stated that Nagato (hopped up on Hachibi chakra) was _way_ faster and stronger than Pain was, and Itachi "kept pace" with Nagato if we're being conservative and "pwnd" if we're not.

Which would put Itachi on a higher tier than Pain, especially if you consider that the dividing line between Itachi and Nagato are the big Deva techniques, which Nagato shuts down five bodies for.​


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

I cannot make up my mind on where these character's should be.


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## Sadgoob (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I cannot make up my mind on where these character's should be.



Nagato (Hachibi absorbed) ≥ Itachi > Pain > Sick Itachi ≥ Sick Nagato ≥ Sannin.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2015)

All arguments placing a Susanoo-less above Hebi Sasuke and a Susanoo Itachi above Taka Sasuke all lost credibility when you ignore Itachi's own words and Zetsu pointing out a healthy Itachi is just a sick Itachi who doesn't cough blood and get hit by a shuriken. 
Also when the argument assumes Itachi held back everything, not the jutsu Itachi held back. (Hint: Susanoo was the only jutsu to never attack Sasuke. )


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi defeated Orochimaru in his "dream vessel" in a panel despite (an already dying) Itachi having been stabbed in the leg, burned, endured Tsukuyomi backfiring, gone completely blind, and drained.​




Orochimaru wasn't in control of Sasuke's body, Strat. I believe he kind of just... popped out like he did with Anko. That and he was still lacking his 'spirit arms'. So either way that definitely wasn't Orochimaru at the top of his game.​


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto stated that Nagato (hopped up on Hachibi chakra) was _way_ faster and stronger than Pain was, and Itachi "kept pace" with Nagato if we're being conservative and "pwnd" if we're not.
> 
> Which would put Itachi on a higher tier than Pain, especially if you consider that the dividing line between Itachi and Nagato are the big Deva techniques, which Nagato shuts down five bodies for.​



the dividing line actually is stamina 

if itachi had a larger chakra pool then he would be nagato equal 

sadly itachi cant even keep susanoo for long enough which really is the only thing saving him from ST. 

seeing that it tanked the blow back from BD+FRS+YM

itachi having susanoo spamming abilities would be much more of a threat to nagato. sadly he will only keep up for about 5 mins then be trolled

@Munboy itachi also didn't time manipulate his tskuyomi which makes it inherently weaker quite obviously. 
also closed his eyes after trolling the katon out of fear of attacking an unprepared sasuke 

so yes itachi held back more than just susanoo. though not using susanoo is the very definition of holding back considering if he started with it sasuke would have died in 10 seconds. 

that's the difference in their level which itachi tried to explain. without MS sasuke is a fly to itachi

no sharingan user can beat an MS user being serious


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## StickaStick (May 19, 2015)

Wait, are we still using a _mind-controlled_ Nagato with a _fake _Rinnegan as a proxy for the real thing?  I thought that this notion died a while ago. Apparently not.

And Itachi had assistance to boot. 

The manga couldn't have made it more clear that Nagato > Itachi by a considerable amount.


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's supposed to be Tsunade ≤ Jiraiya ≤ Orochimaru ≤ Tsunade, so yeah.
> 
> I don't have a problem with Orochimaru being able to defeat Jiraiya. I have a problem with Hebi Sasuke being seen as > the Sannin when he was completely played by deathbed Itachi.



Ah.

I thought you meant strictly considering feats. Don't mind me then.


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## Sadgoob (May 19, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The manga couldn't have made it more clear that Nagato > Itachi by a considerable amount.



Like when Itachi said Kabuto was keeping his illusion powers and not Nagato's Rinnegan as the primary ace to impact the war? Or when Bee said Itachi was a brilliant shinobi, not just all about power?

Nagato had more destructive ninjutsu, but Itachi was indicated to be the better ninja, and Itachi's illusion powers were indicated to have the larger impact and pivotal role in Kabuto's war as a whole.​


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## StickaStick (May 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like when Itachi said Kabuto was keeping his illusion powers and not Nagato's Rinnegan as the primary ace to impact the war? Or when Bee said Itachi was a brilliant shinobi, not just all about power?
> 
> Nagato had more destructive ninjutsu, but Itachi was indicated to be the better ninja, and Itachi's illusion powers were indicated to have the larger impact and pivotal role in Kabuto's war as a whole.​


Edo Madara (w/Rinnegan) was his ace, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

Bee didn't get to see Nagato fight of his own volition so that is a bad comparison. Also funny considering Itachi "beat" Nagato with a point-and-click technique.

Created a thread if you actually care to make the case that Itachi is even = to Nagato and not outright outclassed.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

But Nagato has no offensive genjutsu feats anyways.

 All that panel really implies that Itachi's a more effective genjutsu user, but anyone paying attention to the manga up until that point should realize that considering Nagato had no genjutsu feats to begin with.

 But I partially agree with both you guys. Had Kabuto paid attention to Itachi, then Nagato likely would've defeated Itachi and avoided his attacks. The main reason he lost as easily as he did was due to lack of mobility. However, I don't believe Nagato's superiority was implied to be by a large margin. The fact remains that Itachi countered Nagato's Shared Field of Vision, Kabuto relied on separating each member one by one implying that Itachi, KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee would've crushed Nagato had Kabuto decided to have him fight one by one, and also that Itachi showed himself to be the more intelligent fighter and managed to pierce through Nagato while neither Naruto or Bee could despite Nagato being left vulnerable.

 I doubt it's by a large margin. The only reason Nagato would win as easily as you would think is because of CT or Gedo Mazo, but besides that, Nagato doesn't seem to be too far ahead of Itachi to the point where Nagato outclasses Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Yagura said:


> @ Grimmjowsensei: Prime Orochimaru summons Minato. GG Itachi.



Minato jobs, GG Oro & Minato


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

Itachi kills both Minato and Orochimaru. Orochimaru's a non-factor considering how he was fodderized in an instant by Sick Itachi.


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## Alex Payne (May 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> AP again please show Sasuke knew Itachi was stronger than full power Orochimaru. Citing incorrect translations and a parallel, is not evidence. If anything the parallel would only reinforce that Sasuke thought Itachi beat a weakened Orochimaru.


 Sasuke said that Itachi is too strong for Oro. Twice. You think that he meant weakened Oro in the first instance. And you think that he meant "too strong for a body snatch". With both I disagree with. You can twist said instances all you like. Kishimoto playing with statements like that is pointless. Considering he established power structure years ago.



Turrin said:


> LOL, AP he literally brought up Orochimaru being weakened many many times in the manga


 When in came to Itachi - he didn't. Orochimaru was inferior. It was stressed for multiple times. It was shown multiple times. Rubbed in readers faces. When it came to Oro vs Itachi comparison Orochimaru's condition was irrelevant. It didn't matter - hands, no hands, gimped Edo Tensei or not. 



Turrin said:


> No I didn't think that back then, because I knew Itachi would win and I knew Sasuke wasn't as strong as a fusion between Oro and Sasuke:
> 
> 
> 
> -------


 And Kishimoto is that a lousy writer to set up a tensionless fight. Right. 



> Naruto went after Sasuke so by your logic Wind-Arc Naruto > Orochimaru, because he knew Sasuke beat Orochimaru. Team 10 must be stronger than Asuma, Team 10, Kotetsu, Aoba, etc... because they went after Kakuzu and Hidan knowing they beat them. Ei must be stronger than B, since he went after Sasuke knowing he captured B. Sandaime Raikage must be stronger than Pain, since Kabuto sent him after Naruto knowing Naruto defeated Pain. And most importantly weakened Orochimaru took on Itachi's Susano'o that countered Hebi-Sasuke's strongest attack. By your own logic that means Orochimaru must consider himself stronger than Hebi-Sasuke despite being weakened, because otherwise he wouldn't attempt to take on Itachi's Jutsu, which was stronger than Hebi-Sasuke. So does your own logic not dictate that Hebi-Sasuke > Full-Power Orochimaru > Weakened Orochimaru > Hebi-Sasuke?
> 
> Do you really think this is a good way to judge character strength? Do I really need to make the tier rankings based around this concept, to show how absolutely silly as hell things end up.


 Way to misinterpret my words. Naruto's team went after Sasuke. MS Kakashi, Wind Arc Naruto(MS Kakashi's peer), Yamato, Shino-Kiba-Hinata, Sakura and Sai. You have two Kage/Borderline Kage levels with a group of Jonins/Chunins. Team Shikamaru had a specific plan and lacked knowledge on Kakuzu. Plus Akatsuki were endangering Konoha. Raikage had Darui and C as support. Kabuto had an undying zombie(one of many) who he didn't mind losing. And for the record - Orochimaru was planning to take Sasuke's body and only then beat Itachi.  

Here you have it. He didn't even think about taking on battle-worn Itachi by himself. So no, he didn't think he was superior to Hebi Sasuke if we use that instance. 



> Isn't a bit more rational to think Sasuke ether went after Itachi because he thought Itachi beat Orochimaru when he was weakened? Or that Sasuke simply saw red and targeted Itachi despite knowning his chances weren't great? Or Sasuke thought he was simply a much better type match up for Itachi than Orochimaru?


 I don't think it is rational. I think it is dumb. Sasuke spent years planning. Chose specific people to help him. Had intimate knowledge. Fight was set up as a close one(prior reveal). Zetsu was impressed by Sasuke and didn't think about the fight as one-sided. Kishi made a point about Sasuke+Oro fusion being the key since the beginning of Part 2. 

It is simply illogical for Sasuke to think that it was weakened Oro who is inferior to Itachi. He knew about the Shiki Fujin incident. He knew that Orochimaru was wrecked by Itachi way before that. He isn't as dumb as you try to make him look. 

Sasuke didn't need to fight Itachi right away. He had an opportunity to train more and try to improve his new White Snake perks. There was no rush(as far as he knew). Yet he instantly formed Hebi after absorbing Oro.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Munboy itachi also didn't time manipulate his tskuyomi which makes it inherently weaker quite obviously.
> also closed his eyes after trolling the katon out of fear of attacking an unprepared sasuke



You're not making sense. If he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke like he did with Kabuto, then you're on the point. He aimed that Tsukuyomi to take out Sasuke; it failed. Sasuke was hit with jutsu he could handle (everything Itachi has) and not hit with jutsu he couldn't handle (Susanoo).

He closed his eye because all he could see was black flames. Amaterasu is vision dependent. Can't burn shit if you just see black flames all over. Also Itachi has horrid chakra reserves, so obviously one Amaterasu would take a lot out of him.



> so yes itachi held back more than just susanoo. though not using susanoo is the very definition of holding back considering if he started with it sasuke would have died in 10 seconds.



No, you're pulling that fact out of thin air without convincing evidence to support it. Not using Susanoo *WAS* the definition of holding back. The jutsu didn't once attack Sasuke. Sasuke was thinking about how he almost died and he thought of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu- not Susanoo. 
We've seen how Susanoo works, we know at full force with Susanoo Itachi would've literally crushed Sasuke. 

Susanoo was the only thing, all evidence points to it. Everyone who says otherwise has no real evidence to back them up. Look at your argument for example. "Time manipulate" Tsukuyomi; Amaterasu somehow not being vision dependent. Too many asinine assumptions which don't hold any water. 



> that's the difference in their level which itachi tried to explain. without MS sasuke is a fly to itachi
> 
> no sharingan user can beat an MS user being serious



Itachi proved that by not using Susanoo because Sasuke could handle everything else. The dude prepared for Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. *Not* Susanoo. The Uchiha tablet only goes through Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, so Itachi chose not to use Susanoo because he knew which jutsu Sasuke was prepared for. 

If Itachi's ranking is heavily based on faulty assumptions of how held back he was (beyond being able to dodge a shuriken piece and coughing) then the stance hasn't got solid foundations to begin with.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

> Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
> 
> 
> > You're not making sense. If he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke like he did with Kabuto, then you're on the point. He aimed that Tsukuyomi to take out Sasuke; it failed. Sasuke was hit with jutsu he could handle (everything Itachi has) and not hit with jutsu he couldn't handle (Susanoo).
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ypu are making less sense. I am saying he could have used the tskuyomi like he did on kakashi in part 1. 72 hours of torture would have wrecked sasuke. the time manipulation is the power behind tskuyomi. danzo implies this



Here's the thing, you're in no position to say anyone isn't making sense when you're using evidence that doesn't exist. For example Danzo wasn't comparing two Tsukuyomi; he compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on Danzo; Sasuke used Tsukuyomi to use that time manipulation at the end. 

He did use it like he used on Kakashi. That was the same time it was foreshadowed Sasuke would overcome it. 

You literally have zero evidence for Tsukuyomi being held back.


> . sasuke was infront of him right behind the flames that were just consumed. all he needed to do was keep his eyes open and sasuke would have burnt that much is obvious since amaterasu actually travels.
> 
> horrid chakra reserves yet could use susanoo after. a jutsu far more tasking than 1 amaterasu



How the hell could Itachi burn Sasuke after consuming the Katon when his *field of vision* was blocked by Amaterasu?! 
You can't focus on Sasuke when you can't *see* Sasuke. 

Susanoo takes a lot of chakra to manifest, not maintain. That's why it takes your lifeforce. 
2 Amaterasu, 1 Susanoo and you can argue 1 MS fuuinjutsu. The dude will literally drop dead after using the MS five times, while being careful of not using jutsu like the Kage Bunshin. 



> yes sasuke almost died against amaterasu and would have if not for oral rebirth



You're seriously claiming that Sasuke using oral rebirth is a sign that Itachi was holding back... what? Sasuke used it while he was on fire. Well before Itachi put out the flames.



> even if u want to claim susanoo was the only thing. using susanoo kills sasuke instantly should itachi wish it
> 
> sorry are u saying itachi cant time manipulate tskuyomi despite doing so twice on panel and danzo talking about itachi ability to do so
> 
> omg!!!



No-one is saying Itachi can't time manipulate Tsukuyomi. I'm saying you have no evidence to say the Tsukuyomi was held back on Sasuke. You failed to link it. All it means is Itachi can use Tsukuyomi to take you out in an instant; unless you have the proper requirements to resist it like Sasuke did.



> he didn't use time manipulation on tskuyomi that's holding back



You don't even know what this means. I made that assertion in the previous sentence because you're blagging on about it without actually explaining to me the relevance of how time manipulation had anything to do with how powerful Tsukuyomi was. While failing to acknowledge we've seen a weak Tsukuyomi from Itachi (breaking Sasuke out) and a strong one (on Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke).




> but again *not using susanoo clearly is holding back *hence why anyone with a brain can say itachi>>>>>>>hebi sasuke. obito also says this. any  double MS user wanting to kill hebi sasuke can run at him with susanoo and end it casually



What on earth do think I was on about this entire time?
That was the entire point I was making!



> itachi is ranked far superior as obito stated he would have killed sasuke if that was his plan with no difficulty



Accounting for Susanoo, yes. Pretending that it was anything outside Susanoo, no.



> proven by the fact that you have yet to even claim sasuke can resist susanoo trying to kill him for more than 10 seconds.



Go ahead and find me a quote where I said Hebi Sasuke can take on Itachi's Susanoo.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Here's the thing, you're in no position to say anyone isn't making sense when you're using evidence that doesn't exist. For example Danzo wasn't comparing two Tsukuyomi; he compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on Danzo; Sasuke used Tsukuyomi to use that time manipulation at the end.
> 
> He did use it like he used on Kakashi. That was the same time it was foreshadowed Sasuke would overcome it.
> 
> You literally have zero evidence for Tsukuyomi being held back.



except time manipulation makes it inherently stronger than not manipulating it. common don't be slow 
torture for 72 hours in an instant is well over genjutsu with no time manipulation used for torture which is what he did on sasuke. ripping your eye out is torture, now imagine he did that for 72 hours.

to show u how time manipulation makes it stronger. 

itachi used 72 hours on kakashi, kakashi who has sharingan was knocked out for a week
he used 24 hours on genin sasuke who is a fly to kakashi, sasuke was knocked out for just as long. 





> How the hell could Itachi burn Sasuke after consuming the Katon when his *field of vision* was blocked by Amaterasu?!
> You can't focus on Sasuke when you can't *see* Sasuke.


 
look at the panel again. its because he saw sasuke that he closed his eyes. 
....feel free to post the scan you would see what I mean. 



> Susanoo takes a lot of chakra to manifest, not maintain. That's why it takes your lifeforce.
> 2 Amaterasu, 1 Susanoo and you can argue 1 MS fuuinjutsu. The dude will literally drop dead after using the MS five times, while being careful of not using jutsu like the Kage Bunshin.



panel proving that explanation of urs please. but he only needs amaterasu for 10 seconds to troll sasuke



> You're seriously claiming that Sasuke using oral rebirth is a sign that Itachi was holding back... what? Sasuke used it while he was on fire. Well before Itachi put out the flames.



no, I am seriously claiming that itachi gave sasuke a chance to defend himself against amaterasu hence why he closed his eyes after the first use because sasuke wasn't ready




> No-one is saying Itachi can't time manipulate Tsukuyomi. I'm saying you have no evidence to say the Tsukuyomi was held back on Sasuke. You failed to link it. All it means is Itachi can use Tsukuyomi to take you out in an instant; unless you have the proper requirements to resist it like Sasuke did.



time manipulation makes it stronger. no time manipulation=weaker tskuyomi. its basically idiot proof 
odd how you don't get it

a jutsu used to torture someone would be more effective the longer the torture lasts in the persons mind. 

yes sasuke resisted tskuyomi with no time manipulation behind it big whoop. 

btw sasuke doesn't have tskuyomi even with MS unless u wanna provide a scan of sasuke saying tskuyomi. dw ill wait 




> You don't even know what this means. I made that assertion in the previous sentence because you're blagging on about it without actually explaining to me the relevance of how time manipulation had anything to do with how powerful Tsukuyomi was. While failing to acknowledge we've seen a weak Tsukuyomi from Itachi (breaking Sasuke out) and a strong one (on Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke).



can you prove the one on hebi wasn't on the same level as the one used to break out EMS sasuke?
cuz both lack time manipulation which make them inherently different from the one used on kakashi



> What on earth do think I was on about this entire time?
> That was the entire point I was making!



ok




> Accounting for Susanoo, yes. Pretending that it was anything outside Susanoo, no.



eye closed on first amaterasu to let sasuke escape and no time manipulated tskyomi says otherwise 



> Go ahead and find me a quote where I said Hebi Sasuke can take on Itachi's Susanoo.



you didn't my bad

though u have had worse claims eg sasuke having tskuyomi which is funny u gotta admit. every jutsu used kish makes sure to write the name of the jutsu as its used. sasuke got no tskuyomi ever tied to his genjutsu 

btw read tskuyomi description in DB. and tell me if that's what he did to hebi sasuke


In summary of why i think tskuyomi was held back 

- anyone tortured for 72 hours will be worse off than someone tortured for a few seconds. this is essentially the power of tskuyomi which danzo, and kakashi emphasized
the ability to instantly torture someone for days while only a moment goes by. that has nothing at all to do with ripping sasuke eyes once in what wasnt indicated as a genjutsu being time manipulated.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Before we carry on: we're in agreement about Susanoo? It is just Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu we're debating?


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

yes we are in agreement about susanoo
i just need you to reply to one thing please
why would torture for a few seconds= torture for 72 hours 

if you can explain that then am good 

considering tskuyomi is basically used to torture a person if needed


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes we are in agreement about susanoo
> i just need you to reply to one thing please
> why would torture for a few seconds= torture for 72 hours
> 
> ...



I agree with that.

I just don't think that time manipulation is a good argument to say that Itachi held back Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. Itachi was genuinely surprised that Sharingan Sasuke managed to break out Tsukuyomi the way he did. Itachi even held his eye, which is what happens when the illusion breaks.

Also with Amateraus, Amaterasu relies on the user's field of vision.
link

When Itachi's eye was open, Sasuke was completely out of Itachi's field of vision. He *had* to close the eye to see Sasuke again.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> I just don't think that time manipulation is a good argument to say that Itachi held back Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. Itachi was genuinely surprised that Sharingan Sasuke managed to break out Tsukuyomi the way he did. Itachi even held his eye, which is what happens when the illusion breaks.
> 
> ...



i dont get how you can agree that torture for 72 hours is more difficult to bare than a few seconds 
yet you think itachi didnt hold back 

considering itachi chose to have sasuke suffer for a few seconds which sasuke broke out of. 

itachi opted for a gimped tskuyomi 

yes itachi was surprised a sharingan can overpower an MS even if he was using a gimped genjutsu considering MS>>>>>>>sharignan

. did u look at the scan properly it looks like itach closed his eyes to not fry sasuke

the panel before itachi closes his eyes we see a panel of sasuke. that was from itachi POV. as you can see on the panel you posted, sasuke is very visible to itachi.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Sasuke said that Itachi is too strong for Oro. Twice. You think that he meant weakened Oro in the first instance. And you think that he meant "too strong for a body snatch". With both I disagree with. You can twist said instances all you like. Kishimoto playing with statements like that is pointless. Considering he established power structure years ago.


Were not talking about the power structure, were talking about what Sasuke believed. Sasuke believed Itachi was weaker than he really was, this is a fact. So Sasuke's understanding of the power structure is already flawed from the onset.



> When in came to Itachi - he didn't. Orochimaru was inferior.


Than why did Sasuke say presently Orochimaru can't beat Itachi. Instead of just Orochimaru can't beat Itachi. 



> It was stressed for multiple times. It was shown multiple times. Rubbed in readers faces. When it came to Oro vs Itachi comparison Orochimaru's condition was irrelevant. It didn't matter - hands, no hands, gimped Edo Tensei or not.


Cool and we as readers know that, but Hebi-Sasuke does not



> And Kishimoto is that a lousy writer to set up a tensionless fight. Right


ummm....yeah pretty much bro.



> Way to misinterpret my words. Naruto's team went after Sasuke. MS Kakashi, Wind Arc Naruto(MS Kakashi's peer), Yamato, Shino-Kiba-Hinata, Sakura and Sai.


When Naruto was cornered by Itachi he still tried to fight him alone, instead of running away.



> Team Shikamaru had a specific plan and lacked knowledge on Kakuzu.


Cool so specific plans matter more than strength, is that what your saying AP, because if so Hebi-Sasuke also had a specific plan to defeat Itachi.



> Raikage had Darui and C as support


And Sasuke had Hebi



> Kabuto had an undying zombie(one of many) who he didn't mind losing


He never said my chances are slim, but I don't care if I loose this zombie. He thought he was going to win. So Edo Sandaime > Pain.



> And for the record - Orochimaru was planning to take Sasuke's body and only then beat Itachi.


The panel you posted says nothing off the sort, and literally right before that he says he'll use his power against Itachi and than right after that starts fighting Itachi before trying to take Sasuke's body.



> Chose specific people to help him. Had intimate knowledge. Fight was set up as a close one(prior reveal). Zetsu was impressed by Sasuke and didn't think about the fight as one-sided.


The specific people he choose to help him were than discarded for him going alone, due to him seeing red. Your refuse to acknowledge this, but that is a blatant instance of Sasuke's emotions getting the better of him. Zetsu thought the match was going to be one-sided many times, so I don't know what your talking about, he thought Tsukuyomi finished Sasuke, Amaterasu finished Sasuke, and so on, than when Sasuke "won" he was like WTF is going on with Itachi.



> Kishi made a point about Sasuke+Oro fusion being the key since the beginning of Part 2.


Yes Orochimaru in control, not Sasuke in control.



> It is simply illogical for Sasuke to think that it was weakened Oro who is inferior to Itachi. He knew about the Shiki Fujin incident. He knew that Orochimaru was wrecked by Itachi way before that. He isn't as dumb as you try to make him look.


He's pretty fucking dumb. Like remember the roof top battle where he thought he could beat Naruto, even after a few chapters before than admitting Naruto had a thunderous power that he couldn't match. 

But I digress. It's not a mater of Sasuke being dumb, it's a matter of us not knowing the extent of Sasuke's knowledge or Orochimaru's strength when he faced Itachi. Your making the assumption that Sasuke knows for sure that Orochimaru at his best was defeated by Itachi, and that's not something we can assume.



> Sasuke didn't need to fight Itachi right away. He had an opportunity to train more and try to improve his new White Snake perks. There was no rush(as far as he knew). Yet he instantly formed Hebi after absorbing Oro.


Because he saw red and is kind of moronic when it comes to overestimating himself and underestimating his adversaries.


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## Kanki (May 20, 2015)

I'd still put Deidara in front of Sasuke. Stylistically, Sasuke was just a bad match for his bombs due to the elemental advantage,


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont get how you can agree that torture for 72 hours is more difficult to bare than a few seconds
> yet you think itachi didnt hold back
> 
> considering itachi chose to have sasuke suffer for a few seconds which sasuke broke out of.
> ...



Tsukuyomi is in an instant, Itachi can cram a lot of stuff in a second. The actual power of the illusion doesn't depend on what's being shown. Also unlike Kakashi, Sasuke had the power to resist it quite a bit. Pinning Sasuke down for 72 hours wasn't within Itachi's power. 
Or Itachi wanted to trick Sasuke into thinking that he was still within the fight, not knowing he was in Tsukuyomi.

Nothing implied it was gimped whatsoever. Tsukuyomi has power, its power doesn't depend on the illusions shown.



> . did u look at the scan properly it looks like itach closed his eyes to not fry sasuke
> 
> the panel before itachi closes his eyes we see a panel of sasuke. that was from itachi POV. as you can see on the panel you posted, sasuke is very visible to itachi.



Look at the scan above that. Amaterasu was covering Itachi's eyes. Sasuke only became visible after the flames dispersed *after* Itachi closed his eyes. 

But probably not.
But probably not.

No possible way to see Sasuke.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi is in an instant, Itachi can cram a lot of stuff in a second. The actual power of the illusion doesn't depend on what's being shown. Also unlike Kakashi, Sasuke had the power to resist it quite a bit. Pinning Sasuke down for 72 hours wasn't within Itachi's power.
> Or Itachi wanted to trick Sasuke into thinking that he was still within the fight, not knowing he was in Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Nothing implied it was gimped whatsoever. Tsukuyomi has power, its power doesn't depend on the illusions shown.



its power depends on the amount of torture it can inflict in that instant though. clearly manipulating time to make the victim they have suffered for days is far more powerful than the same jutsu used to inflict pain that only lasts a moment. seriously I don't get your confusion and conviction in being wrong

itachi never attempted to pin sasuke down for 72 hours though. when itachi time manipulates his tskuyomi he clearly tells the victim that's what is happening as part of the mind game. 

kakashi 72 hours of torture...71hrs, 69mins and 69 seconds left all of that was to fuck with his mind more. 

he did the same to genin sasuke, against hebi he did not. you cant compare the 2 or imply he tried to manipulate time but couldn't hold sasuke in the jutsu 



> Look at the scan above that. Amaterasu was covering Itachi's eyes. Sasuke only became visible after the flames dispersed *after* Itachi closed his eyes.
> 
> But probably not.
> But probably not.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

no way you are right 
kk wont debate that one. 
kudos


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its power depends on the amount of torture it can inflict in that instant though. clearly manipulating time to make the victim they have suffered for days is far more powerful than the same jutsu used to inflict pain that only lasts a moment. seriously I don't get your confusion and conviction in being wrong
> 
> itachi never attempted to pin sasuke down for 72 hours though. when itachi time manipulates his tskuyomi he clearly tells the victim that's what is happening as part of the mind game.
> 
> ...




Show me that a particular illusion determines what works. From the looks of it, all illusions will generate the same effect. It just depends if Itachi wants you down (like with Sasuke and Kakashi) or walking alright (like it was when he broke Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion).


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Show me that a particular illusion determines what works. From the looks of it, all illusions will generate the same effect. It just depends if Itachi wants you down (like with Sasuke and Kakashi) or walking alright (like it was when he broke Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion).



then you did not read at all what the Db said. not even a little 



> Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end



showing sasuke a replay of his parents being killed is an inherently different from of torture to what he did to kakashi where by he had kakashi believe he was being stabbed by a sword for 72 hours. 

so clearly what happens in the illusion determines its effectiveness and power. 

having you believe I am sawing your leg off would obviously be a lot more painful than having you believe I am pulling out your finger nails. I hope you get that

in the same obvious way, showing sasuke an image of itachi ripping his eye out once isn't nearly as painful as reliving that same experience for days. 

go back to chapter 142

and to what danzo said when he brought up tskuyomi. time manipulation is a huge aspect of tskuyomi it doesn't mean it cant be used in other ways

however whats most important about genjutsu is what is being shown here. 

genjutsu stakes make you believe you are immobilized

the one used on kakashi clone was to make kakashi believe he was burning. different effect and would obviously be more of a mind wrecker than kakashi simply thinking he has giant stakes through him making him believe he is immobilized. 

Considering he knows its genjutsu and would feel no physical pain from the stakes 

am ranting on here but I don't see why u can easily claim the tskuyomi itachi used to free EMS sasuke was weak yet you believe the one on hebi sasuke was full powered


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> then you did not read at all what the Db said. not even a little
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read the databook, "the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness." 
That matches Sasuke's description. 

The illusion is tailored to the foe. Sasuke would be crushed if he stood no chance against Itachi, Itachi tailored the illusion to fit that. 
The one used on Hebi Sasuke was designed to take it down, there's no evidence suggesting that the vision itself influences the potency of the illusion. The user's intent is what influences that. 

Time manipulation just means that it distorts the victim's perception of time. If the user wanted it to: like how Sasuke made Danzo think he was still within his Izanagi time window. 

Itachi could've done anything in the illusion and Kakashi would've been in the same state. I'd see the illusions on Sasuke were more powerful because they were tailored to damage Sasuke based on how well Itachi knew him.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the databook, "the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness."
> That matches Sasuke's description.
> 
> The illusion is tailored to the foe. Sasuke would be crushed if he stood no chance against Itachi, Itachi tailored the illusion to fit that.
> ...



read the manga. 
yes sasuke matches the description 

yes itachi tailored it to fit that scenario he wanted .one where sasuke wins

you go against obito saying itachi planned everything and wanted to get rid of the orochimaru presence within sasuke hence pushing sasuke to sasuke limits

what sasuke used was a simple genjutsu to make danzo believe he had an eye left nothing to do with time manipulation of any sorts making people see things is something kotetsu can even do 

so don't even bring that up when discussing tskuyomi. 

considering you agree itachi tailored it and itachi didn't want to win. why assume that was itachi best tskuyomi?

unless u got some evidence suggesting itachi wanted to win


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> read the manga.
> yes sasuke matches the description
> 
> yes itachi tailored it to fit that scenario he wanted .one where sasuke wins
> ...



He didn't tailor it to one where Sasuke would automatically win. Itachi himself was surprised that Sasuke broke out. This was _after_ he kept going on and on about how with no MS, Sasuke stands no chance. 

I go with Obito when he says that he gave Sasuke no-more than he could handle: he gave Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi at full force, but no Susanoo.



> what sasuke used was a simple genjutsu to make danzo believe he had an eye left nothing to do with time manipulation of any sorts making people see things is something kotetsu can even do
> 
> so don't even bring that up when discussing tskuyomi.
> 
> ...



It was a MS Tsukuyomi with explanations of time manipulation. It was Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't tailor it to one where Sasuke would automatically win. Itachi himself was surprised that Sasuke broke out. This was _after_ he kept going on and on about how with no MS, Sasuke stands no chance.
> 
> I go with Obito when he says that he gave Sasuke no-more than he could handle: he gave Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi at full force, but no Susanoo.
> 
> ...



I didn't say he tailored it so sasuke could automatically break out. 
however failing to use tskuyomi to its full ability i.e. time manipulation means he held back 

yes and without MS sasuke is a fly to itachi. that's fact 

he gave sasuke no more than he could handle.   yet you think not time manipulating tskuyomi wasn't intentional so sasuke could handle it 

ill keep saying it, time manipulated tskuyomi>>>>>tskuyomi with no time manipulation 

sharingan genjutsu got different strength levels, tskuyomi a particular genjutsu is no different. 

itachi didn't go all out with it, considering danzo said *MS SASUKE!!* genjutsu abilities were as far as the heaven is from the earth when compared to itachi 

that's not at all indicative of hebi sasuke genjutsu level being remotely close to itachi. which it would have needed to be for itachi to use a time manipulated tskuyomi while intending to beat sasuke 

which again you urself said. itachi gave sasuke only what he can handle. its quite obvious itachi knew sasuke could not handle time manipulated tskuyomi, this is again emphasized by danzo statement


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I didn't say he tailored it so sasuke could automatically break out.
> however failing to use tskuyomi to its full ability i.e. time manipulation means he held back
> 
> yes and without MS sasuke is a fly to itachi. that's fact
> ...



Tsukuyomi by nature manipulates the victim's perception of time; "time manipulation". 

How can he not use time manipulation with Tsukuyomi when you cannot literally use Tsukuyomi without manipulating time?



> sharingan genjutsu got different strength levels, tskuyomi a particular genjutsu is no different.
> 
> itachi didn't go all out with it, considering danzo said *MS SASUKE!!* genjutsu abilities were as far as the heaven is from the earth when compared to itachi



Tsukuyomi has two levels, what Itachi used to break out Sasuke. And what he tried to do to Kakashi and Sasuke. He wouldn't have used Tsukuyomi if Sasuke couldn't handle its full power.

Danzo compared a normal Genjutsu from MS Sasuke to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Itachi's Genjutsu abilities outside Tsukuyomi were never referenced.



> that's not at all indicative of hebi sasuke genjutsu level being remotely close to itachi. which it would have needed to be for itachi to use a time manipulated tskuyomi while intending to beat sasuke
> 
> which again you urself said. itachi gave sasuke only what he can handle. its quite obvious itachi knew sasuke could not handle time manipulated tskuyomi, this is again emphasized by danzo statement



Let me ask you this: tell me what the difference between the Tsukuyomi we've seen in the manga to this time manipulated one.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi by nature manipulates the victim's perception of time; "time manipulation".
> 
> How can he not use time manipulation with Tsukuyomi when you cannot literally use Tsukuyomi without manipulating time?



 tskuyomi doesn't automatically mean time is being manipulated. omg where did u get that from. itachi within tskuyomi can control it as he wants. your assumption directly goes against DB

also where was time manipulation when itachi used it on EMS sasuke 



> Tsukuyomi has two levels, what Itachi used to break out Sasuke. And what he tried to do to Kakashi and Sasuke. He wouldn't have used Tsukuyomi if Sasuke couldn't handle its full power


.

 says the guy who just assumed all tskuyomi got time manipulation. way to contradict urself. where was time manipulation in the genjutsu used on EMS sasuke 

actually he would use tskuyomi to the level sasuke can handle since u just said there are 2 levels.  



> Danzo compared a normal Genjutsu from MS Sasuke to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Itachi's Genjutsu abilities outside Tsukuyomi were never referenced.



sorry when u say MS sasuke normal genjutsu. does MS sasuke have abnormal genjutsu?  MS sasuke is shit tier in genjutsu when compared to itachi



> Let me ask you this: tell me what the difference between the Tsukuyomi we've seen in the manga to this time manipulated one.



the length of torture. anyone can get that why u don't is beyond me 

u have basically said there are 2 level of tskuyomi then you contradict urself and say all tskuyomi requires time manipulation despite this being shown only 2 of the 5 times tskuyomi has been shown in the manga 

for real bro you are trying way to hard to troll here. I don't get it 

read the DB you posted and the manga again please. itachi says he can control the world of tskuyomi as he pleases therefore its the perfect jutsu to use against sasuke. he can make it as strong or as weak as he wills it. that's common sense.


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## UchihaX28 (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> I just don't think that time manipulation is a good argument to say that Itachi held back Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. Itachi was genuinely surprised that Sharingan Sasuke managed to break out Tsukuyomi the way he did. Itachi even held his eye, which is what happens when the illusion breaks.
> 
> ...



 I agree here.

 Time manipulation simply allows the effects of the genjutsu be greater as Tsukyomi as Kisame stated during Tsukyomi's debut was a genjutsu designed to break one's spirit. Time manipulation seemingly prolongs the psychological trauma that the person endures, but it doesn't necessarily effect the strength of the genjutsu. The reason why it makes it one of the most deadliest genjutsu's in the manga (excluding God Tier shit) is simply for that reason and also because hardly any ninja has the means to break out of it if they are affected by it which implies they'd feel the full effect. Besides that, time manipulation isn't really a good argument as to why Itachi held back.

 If anything, Itachi shouldn't have held back simply because Sasuke knows the full power of Tsukyomi. After all, Itachi forced him to relive * the worst psychological trauma * he had ever experienced. Even if Itachi did hold back, the manga directly dedicated a few pages to indicate that Sasuke's 3 Tomoe was more skilled as well as the fact that that was the only moment that Kishimoto had Zetsu credit Sasuke's success due to being legitimately more skilled as opposed to other instances where Zetsu actually outright stated where Itachi under-performed.

 @IceGaze

 If that was the case, Tsukyomi would be any regular MS genjutsu, so time manipulation is a huge component of what makes Tsukyomi, Tsukyomi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I agree here.
> 
> Time manipulation simply allows the effects of the genjutsu be greater as Tsukyomi as Kisame stated during Tsukyomi's debut was a genjutsu designed to break one's spirit. Time manipulation seemingly prolongs the psychological trauma that the person endures, but it doesn't necessarily effect the strength of the genjutsu. The reason why it makes it one of the most deadliest genjutsu's in the manga (excluding God Tier shit) is simply for that reason and also because hardly any ninja has the means to break out of it if they are affected by it which implies they'd feel the full effect. Besides that, time manipulation isn't really a good argument as to why Itachi held back.
> 
> ...


*

On top of that, another indicator that Tsukuyomi wasn't held back was that all the way in part 1 when we first saw the jutsu, it was foreshadowed that Sasuke would be the one to overcome Tsukuyomi. Even the databook reinforced it.*


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

@NarutoX28 and Munboy you have both convinced me 
Rep to both of you 
I can't really go on countering it . It's possible the time manipulation doesn't make it atronfer 
And Sasuke was foreshadowed to be able to break it


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

@NarutoX28 and Munboy you have both convinced me 
Rep to both of you 
I can't really go on countering it . It's possible the time manipulation doesn't make it atronfer 
And Sasuke was foreshadowed to be able to break it


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On top of that, another indicator that Tsukuyomi wasn't held back was that all the way in part 1 when we first saw the jutsu, it was foreshadowed that Sasuke would be the one to overcome Tsukuyomi. Even the databook reinforced it.



It was also "foreshadowed" that Sasuke'd defeat Itachi. But he didn't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was also "foreshadowed" that Sasuke'd defeat Itachi. But he didn't.



Without Susanoo, Itachi got destroyed. You're trying to hard to make it look like jutsu which weren't held back (Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi) were. The evidence doesn't support that.


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## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @NarutoX28 and Munboy you have both convinced me
> Rep to both of you
> I can't really go on countering it . It's possible the time manipulation doesn't make it atronfer
> And Sasuke was foreshadowed to be able to break it



 Honestly means a lot that you said that to me. You're actually one of the first few people to actually acknowledge what I say. I know that we have our differences, but the fact that you said this means a lot.

 Sending my poverty reps to you. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was also "foreshadowed" that Sasuke'd defeat Itachi. But he didn't.





 That's exactly what happened in the manga. Sasuke beat Itachi regardless of whether or not he was serious.

 Even then, we should still credit that Hebi Sasuke honestly wasn't outclassed by Itachi to the point where he'd be defeated low difficulty. Mid-difficulty at the very least considering Itachi initially believed he'd be able to push Sasuke to his limits with just Tsukyomi which was later contradicted when Itachi had to resort to Susano'o in order to accomplish this.

 Sasuke does deserve credit, but all of a sudden, Obito's statement makes it as if Sick Itachi would low-diff Hebi Sasuke which is downright false and never implied. All Obito claimed was that Sasuke'd be dead if Itachi was serious. That in no way implies that Sasuke was severely outclassed (which I know is off-topic, but judging by your post history, this is something you likely believe).


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

@Narutox28 you are welcome
I can admit when am wrong something you never see on the forum bar thunder as well who can admit it If he is wrong
the rest its either complaining or silly retorts. some just ignore me due to butthurt. 

but an all out itachi 1 panels hebi sasuke using susanoo


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## Ryuzaki (May 24, 2015)

This is a bit tricky considering Sasuke had an elemental advantage over Deidara, had he not, the match probably would have ended differently. I'd say he'd still lose to Kisame, Kakuzu, Obito, Pain/Nagato, Itachi but he probably could defeat Zetsu, Hidan, Sasori and Konan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's exactly what happened in the manga



finger break

Manga. read it.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Without Susanoo*, Itachi got destroyed.



But he had Susano'O.

So again, Sasuke never defeated Itachi, like it was foreshadowed. In fact it turned out, Itachi was much stronger than Sasuke @ that point.

So again, what was your argument ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But he had Susano'O.
> 
> So again, Sasuke never defeated Itachi, like it was foreshadowed. In fact it turned out, Itachi was much stronger than Sasuke @ that point.
> 
> So again, what was your argument ?



Without Susanoo, Itachi would be wrecked hard. With Susanoo, he wouldn't be. Though it appears you agreed.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

@Munboy this actually isn't true in the slightest. 

give both no knowledge or full knowledge and itachi even without susanoo would win more often than not


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## Ryuzaki (May 25, 2015)

I'm pretty certain that Susano'o was the difference maker between Sasuke and Itachi, he had most of his bases covered when he fought Itachi, but this sick, pretty much blind Itachi. There's no way, Hebi Sasuke would stand a chance against a healthy, not-so blind Itachi, with or without Susano'o.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Munboy this actually isn't true in the slightest.
> 
> give both no knowledge or full knowledge and itachi even without susanoo would win more often than not



Hebi Sasuke had an answer for everything Itachi did excpt Susanoo.


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## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No????
> 
> Manga. read it.





No????


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> AoE



He had Sasuke cornered, back to a wall, completely out of chakra, legs shaking and whimpering like a little child. And he poked him in the forehead.

Then he died, because of his terminal illness.

You take that as Sasuke defeating Itachi ? After how you saw the fight ended ? After all the explanations Tobi gave to Sasuke ? 

Sorry, but I'm finding hard to take you seriously because your manga knowledge seems insufficent.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Without Susanoo, Itachi would be wrecked hard. With Susanoo, he wouldn't be. Though it appears you agreed.



Whether I agree or not is irrelevant. 

You said Sasuke breaking Itachi's Tsukiyomi was foreshadowed, which should be enough evidence why he can break it.

And I said that Sasuke defeating Itachi was foreshadowed, but never actualized. Why is it any different for Tsukiyomi's case ? 
Protip : It isn't.


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## UchihaX28 (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He had Sasuke cornered, back to a wall, completely out of chakra, legs shaking and whimpering like a little child. And he poked him in the forehead.
> 
> Then he died, because of his terminal illness.
> 
> ...



 It honestly doesn't matter. Sasuke defeated Itachi. Sasuke simply contributed to the severity of the illness and so thus Itachi died.

 Obito's statements I take as Itachi not being completely serious, but it doesn't deny the fact that Itachi fell flat on his face and so thus, he lost.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It honestly doesn't matter. Sasuke defeated Itachi. Sasuke simply contributed to the severity of the illness and so thus Itachi died.
> 
> Obito's statements I take as Itachi not being completely serious, but it doesn't deny the fact that Itachi fell flat on his face and so thus, he lost.



Ok it figures... At first I thought you didn't pay much attention to the manga but now it is clear that you'r in complete denial. I'm done with you.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It honestly doesn't matter. Sasuke defeated Itachi. Sasuke simply contributed to the severity of the illness and so thus Itachi died.
> 
> Obito's statements I take as Itachi not being completely serious, but it doesn't deny the fact that Itachi fell flat on his face and so thus, he lost.



Zetsu said that Itachi would have been dead before Sasuke even fought him if not for some medicine that prolonged his life. Sasuke didn't do more than drain him of his chakra till his illness killed him. Itachi was just fucking with him till Orochimaru came out out so he could seal him. 

Sasuke didn't defeat Itachi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Whether I agree or not is irrelevant.
> 
> You said Sasuke breaking Itachi's Tsukiyomi was foreshadowed, which should be enough evidence why he can break it.
> 
> ...



Sasuke _did_ defeat Itachi. However it turned out that the way things were done, Itachi's Tsukuyomi was defeated but it set the stage for Sasuke to show off a new jutsu after the battle: Susanoo. 

You're trying way too hard to distort the context to make Tsukuyomi seem like it was held back, despite the fact you have literally nothing to back up the claim. 

The onus is on you to prove Tsukuyomi was held back since everything indicates it wasn't. No, distorting the context of Obito's words without using any aspect of the actual battle will not suffice.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke _did_ defeat Itachi. However it turned out that the way things were done, Itachi's Tsukuyomi was defeated but it set the stage for Sasuke to show off a new jutsu after the battle: Susanoo.
> 
> You're trying way too hard to distort the context to make Tsukuyomi seem like it was held back, despite the fact you have literally nothing to back up the claim.
> 
> The onus is on you to prove Tsukuyomi was held back since everything indicates it wasn't. No, distorting the context of Obito's words without using any aspect of the actual battle will not suffice.


"Sasuke defeated Itachi."



Read my reply to the above guy. I'm done lol.


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## Alex Payne (May 26, 2015)

I thought that Obito made it obvious that Sasuke would've died against serious Itachi long before Susano.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 26, 2015)

I thought so.

"If Itachi had been serious, you'd be dead."

Flashes to Tsukiyomi and Ameterasu.

"You never saw through any of his illusions."

Flashes to Tsukiyomi again.

Itachi is even saying, "Can see through my illusions?  Well, if you say so..."  Then Sasuke gets that freaked out face when realizing he's been duped.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 26, 2015)

01 Nagato
02 Itachi
03 0rochimaru
04 Sasori
05 Kisame
06 Kakuzu
07 Deidara
08 Hebi Sasuke
09 Konan
10 Hidan


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## Ryuzaki (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> "Sasuke defeated Itachi."
> 
> 
> 
> Read my reply to the above guy. I'm done lol.


Technically, he's right the two fought and the winner was Sasuke despite the numerous things that went against Itachi, if completely healthy, no chance in hell that Sasuke would win. The outcome remains the same and the ninja world will probably remember it like that as well.

Kind of a moot point, becuase I don't think the match would have gone down at all, I think, Itachi would have eventually told Sasuke the truth and the two would have just exchanged eyes after Sasuke activated MS.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> *Technically, he's right the two fought and the winner was Sasuke despite the numerous things that went against Itachi, if completely healthy, no chance in hell that Sasuke would win. *The outcome remains the same and the ninja world will probably remember it like that as well.
> 
> Kind of a moot point, becuase I don't think the match would have gone down at all, I think, Itachi would have eventually told Sasuke the truth and the two would have just exchanged eyes after Sasuke activated MS.



What the fuck are you on ? Itachi didn't lose because he was sick


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What the fuck are you on ? Itachi didn't lose because he was sick



Healthy or not, without Susanoo, Itachi would've been wrecked hard as he was when he was sick.

This is not a problem if you acknowledge that at full power, including Susanoo, Itachi would wreck Hebi Sasuke. However if you want to use a very unsupported and flawed stance to postulate that Itachi _without_ Susanoo could beat Hebi Sasuke, then it poses a problem.

Basically the main factor separating Hebi Sasuke and Itachi was the MS, as per the latter's statements throughout the battle. To be more precise, going by what we saw in the fight, Susanoo was the main jutsu separating the two of them.

It is only a shame if you expected a gazillion things to separate the two.


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## UchihaX28 (May 26, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Zetsu said that Itachi would have been dead before Sasuke even fought him if not for some medicine that prolonged his life. Sasuke didn't do more than drain him of his chakra till his illness killed him. Itachi was just fucking with him till Orochimaru came out out so he could seal him.
> 
> Sasuke didn't defeat Itachi



 - I'm aware of what Zetsu said.

 - Zetsu's statement doesn't negate the fact that Itachi was forced to continuously use his MS which would obviously increase the severity of his illness as well as the effects the MS already had on his body. After all, Susano'o fucks up the cells of his body, which he was forced to use thanks to Kirin.

 - Itachi wasn't completely fucking around. He purposely didn't react to some hits, but saying he totally fucked around with Hebi Sasuke is huge Itachi wank. Sasuke breaking out of Tsukyomi is an indication of that.

 - Ah, so Sasuke draining Itachi of his chakra did contribute to Itachi's death. It's a simple manga fact that when your chakra reaches 0, you die.


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## Sadgoob (May 26, 2015)

Everybody who's not Munboy knows that sick Itachi could kill Hebi Sasuke well before Susano'o came into play. There's no sense in arguing with him about that topic. He's adamant.​


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What the fuck are you on ? Itachi didn't lose because he was sick


Well yeah, he threw the match so that Sasuke could live but I'm speaking simply from the perspective of how the characters in the manga would know it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> sick Itachi could kill Hebi Sasuke well before Susano'o came into play.​



Care to provide evidence Gooby? Apart from focusing on one panel and distorting context of it and other evidence.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

oh god wont it be nice to get back on topic and not turn this into an itachi vs hebi sasuke thread
for example why would hebi sasuke be ranked above kisame, if not ranked above why not?

discuss


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Care to provide evidence Gooby? Apart from focusing on one panel and distorting context of it and other evidence.




I love munboy's debate tactic.

There are 2 kinds of evidence for him. Evidence that supports his argument, and evidence that are contextually distorted thus invalid.

We can't debate Munboy anymore, its futile. We lost


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Kisame vs Hebi Sauce can go either way (leaning towards Kisame myself) but Kisame can beat people who completely wreck Sasuke (Raikages, Bee for example). Daikoudan kills pretty much everyone from the mid Kage tier and lower if not avoided and not too many have the defenses to block it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I love munboy's debate tactic.
> 
> There are 2 kinds of evidence for him. Evidence that supports his argument, and evidence that are contextually distorted thus invalid.
> 
> We can't debate Munboy anymore, its futile. We lost



Your evidence is literally Zetsu said Itachi wasn't at full power... followed by excluding Zetsu's explanation of why that happened. Your next evidence is Obito's statement... not applying that comment in context to the fight i.e. Itachi didn't go all out because (as Sasuke pointed out) only 2 MS jutsu were used to almost kill him.

In this debate, that's where your main evidence is. So your arguments actually hinge on distorting the context to prove that Hebi Sasuke and Itachi were separated by more than just Susanoo. 

In fact, the exclusion of Zetsu elaboration is used to argue a distorted version of healthy Itachi's power. Which going by it, isn't too different to sick Itachi. Minimising the difference between Itachi and Sasuke _in general_. 

Of course this is fine if you accept Susanoo is the only reason Itachi's above Hebi Sasuke.


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## Soldierofficial (Nov 5, 2018)

Pain
Obito
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
*Hebi Sasuke*
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## The_Conqueror (Nov 5, 2018)

Nagato 
Obito 
Paths 
Itachi 
Orochimaru 
Hebi  sasuke 
The rest


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## Kisame (Nov 5, 2018)

1. Pain

*small gap*

2. Obito

*small gap*

3. Itachi

*decent gap*

4. Orochimaru

*decent gap*

5. Hebi Sasuke
6. Sasori

*average gap*

7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu
9. Deidara

*decent gap*

10. Konan
11. Hidan


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 5, 2018)

Itachi

*Hebi Sasuke*
Obito
Pain
Zetsu

Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## Serene Grace (Nov 5, 2018)

Damn the wank was even bad back then


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 5, 2018)

Equal to deidara with Hebi being higher in direct 1v1. Tied in general placing.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 5, 2018)

Obito
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Hebi Sasuke
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Kisame
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Tri (Nov 5, 2018)

Obito
Pain
Itachi
Oro
Sasori
Sasuke
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## Speedyamell (Nov 5, 2018)

Rocky said:


> I'd probably have something like:
> 
> Pain
> Obito
> ...


Basically this.
He's around the level of mid-akatsuki like kisame,deidara e.t.c


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 5, 2018)

Lord Konan is literally the most underrated character in Naruto (not even exaggerating).... anyways on OT

Nagato
...
Pein
Obito
...
Itachi
Konan
...
Sasori
Kisame
Kakuzu 
*Hebi Sasuke* 
Deidara 
...
Hidan
...
Zetsu


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## Kisame (Nov 5, 2018)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Lord Konan is literally the most underrated character in Naruto (not even exaggerating).... anyways on OT
> 
> Nagato
> ...
> ...


Are you counting Paper Ocean?


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 5, 2018)

Shark said:


> Are you counting Paper Ocean?


no


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 5, 2018)

Below Kisame


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## Gohara (Nov 5, 2018)

Obito.
Itachi.
The paths version of Nagato's character.  
Kisame => Orochimaru.
Sasuke.
Kakuzu.
Sasori.
Deidara/Hidan.
Zetsu/Konan.


----------

