# Minato vs Nagato



## hbcaptain (Oct 10, 2015)

Location : Taka vs Killer Bee .
Distance : 15m
Knowledge : known
Conditions/restrcitions  : 
-Nagato is alive but only have Edo false rinnegan like we have seen in the manga , so he can't summon the Gedo Mazo .
-Nagato is complete but he is lucking mobility .
-Minato is alive and he is not a Jinchuriki .


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## t0xeus (Oct 10, 2015)

What does knowledge: known mean?
Like they know basic info about each other, or full?

I will edit this post after I get it.


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## LostSelf (Oct 10, 2015)

Minato warps back.
Nagato senses.
Minato rubs Nagato with Rasengan.
Nagato manages to shot a powerful Shinra Tensei before Minato finished hitting him.
Minato dies.
Nagato gets up.


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## Hachibi (Oct 10, 2015)

This has been done before and the result still doesn't change.


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## thechickensage (Oct 10, 2015)

With perfect knowledge on Nagato, Minato can win, depends on the person writing the fight

But without perfect knowledge, there's really no way he could win


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## hbcaptain (Oct 10, 2015)

Full knowledge for both .


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 10, 2015)

Deva path, asura path and multiple way vision means minato dies.

He could try to use pressure game with a clone feint but being able to see minato at all times, being able to one shot with any type of ST and his armor that hold back rakiri's from fully piercing(and this was from a pain which is weaker than nagato in every way) i would be kidding myself to say minato pull off a win here.


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## GearsUp (Oct 10, 2015)

Edo minato > edo nagato > Paths nagato > minato > healthy nagato


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## t0xeus (Oct 10, 2015)

Minato can kite around Shinra Tenseis with full knowledge using his Hiraishin tags outside the battlefield, but I don't think he will be able to get to Nagato, as he can just Shinra Tensei any kunai thrown at him, as he has also full knowledge.

It will either finish as a draw, since neither of them can injure the other.


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## Matty (Oct 10, 2015)

Nagato > Minato. CT, CST, GM... You pick, Minato is done with knowledge on Hiraishin


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## hbcaptain (Oct 10, 2015)

Nagato can't use high level ST if he is pressured , that was already demonstrated many times in the manga . Since he is much smarter , Minato wins using 5 seconds weakness and weapons to strike Nagato plus FTG combos .


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## ARGUS (Oct 10, 2015)

Nagato wins mid diff


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2015)

I do think Nagato is stronger than Minato. He's more complete and doesn't have poor match ups (Minato would struggle with Sandaime Raikage for example), _buuuut_ I think Minato wins this anyway. Someone with limited mobility going up against one of the most mobile fighters screams upset. Itachi was also able to connect with Nagato using precise, quick attacks. With no knowledge, I think Minato can stab him before he gets going.


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## LostSelf (Oct 10, 2015)

When was Nagato demostrated to be unable to use high level ST when pressured? I recall seeing Deva Path pressured by Kakashi's tactic, and him beating them all with Shinra Tensei.

Also, Nagato will full knowledge can cover himself in Asura Armor and Preta Path. Minato won't damage that. 

*Sits on the sidelines to watch the thread from now on*


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 10, 2015)

Minato wins at the lower end of mid difficulty.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 10, 2015)

Minato takes this, 15m is way too close for Minato who can throw kunai 30m and arrive in SM with a Rasengan before Kakashi can complete Kamui.

ST isn't being used fast enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 11, 2015)

Nagato wins. absorbtion, ST and shared vision counter all of Minato's skillset. On the other side of things, Minato can't avoid ST. He is badly matched here.

Conditions need to be tweaked for Minato to be able to stand a chance.


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## Icegaze (Oct 11, 2015)

Well using an argument from some posters
It took juubi jins to react and counter minato

Nagato has no feats that puts him close to that level so he looses 

 

Nagato murders him . Minato will stall but in the end can't kill Nagato .


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## Matty (Oct 11, 2015)

With knowledge on Minato he's just going to immediately CST him or CT him. With no knowledge you can make a claim Minato MAYBE can get in a surprise attack but even that can be ST'd (lol) if his reactions are good enough. I doubt Minato wins in either scenario but certainly loses with Nagato having full knowledge


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2015)

Either Minato is fast enough to touch Nagato thus marking him and being able to bag him eventually or Nagato is able to react to Minato and finish him off from a distance eventually.


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## thechickensage (Oct 11, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> With knowledge on Minato he's just going to immediately CST him or CT him. With no knowledge you can make a claim Minato MAYBE can get in a surprise attack but even that can be ST'd (lol) if his reactions are good enough. I doubt Minato wins in either scenario but certainly loses with Nagato having full knowledge



Why do people think movement-based jutsus (CT/CST/BT/ST) would have a chance of working on Minato, given that Minato's fighting style is the single best counter in the series (minus Obito)....

Nagato's primary weapons (the push/pull ones) are countered by FTG + full knowledge (meaning exact timings).

I voted for Nagato because he can be far less skillful in his fighting but still have advantages, but it's possible Minato could win. Full knowledge takes the battle from IMPOSSIBLE to extremely hard but possible for Minato, but doesn't help Nagato nearly as much.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 11, 2015)

Minato is a terrible matchup for Nagato, are you guys crazy? Nagato would get solo'd.

You all act like he can use ST everything, you realize theres a span in which he can't use it right? He's toast. He will have tags everywhere, all that pushing and pulling isn't going to do shit with FTG involved. He doesn't give a shit about shared vision when he's too fast for Nagato to deal with anyways.

Minato solo's


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

Minato is winning this. From 15m...are you guys kidding.

Blitzing aside, lets see other options. Shinra tensei is basically nagato signing his own death warrant. Not only is minato so fast that he can spread kunai markings incredibly far apart in mere seconds, just like against the juubi. So minato will have plenty of warping and escape options. In addition, minato can use the tajuu kage bunshin to really make shinra tensei useless.

A single clone can go in for the attack, and nagatos best defence is shinra tensei, but if he does that, then another clone will be on standby, ready to strike during the shinra tensei interval. Lets even forget clones for a sec. Lets say it was the real minato, even if he is pushed back, he can still throw a kunai at nagato as he is flying back and strike him down. With clones its just much easier.

Rasengans can be absorbed hes, but lets see him absorb food cart destroyer, his entire immobile body will get crushed. And considering the speed of fcd, he aint reacting to it at all. Dancing around shinra tensei is minatos easiest strategy.

Chibaku Tensei is childs play. Minato ran through countries and reached konoha in almost a single chapter. Gaining praise from both hiruzen and tobirama. He can send a clone well away from the battlefield. Then all minato has to do is let go of a kunai, which will be pulled towards the jutsu. Then minato can easily teleport to it and warp it to the clones position. He's already warped a juubi bomb in base, CT is like a pebble in size comparison. Not hard to teleport at all.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2015)

Assuming Minato can throw a kunai and plan his next attack when he is being pushed back by a force strong enough to level buildings  
He will be disoriented.

Also he can't dodge ST because it moves at light speed. He can teleport to a mark as he is being pushed back(assuming it is a long flight and he doesn't crash into something before he can regain composure) but that won't get rid of his momentum and he will still land crashing and get hurt.

So on the contrary, ST hard counters Minato and his skillset. 

Tajuu Kagebunshin ? Minato can't use that.

Also even if we assume that he can legitamelty set up a clone strategy and attack during the interval, Nagato can use Asura path and wreck him like he wrecked an unsuspecting B or activate absorbtion barier and negate any rasengan variant Minato can opt to use. Any attempt @ blindsiding Nagato is countered by shared vision. 
In before he throws kunai like Itachi and gets rid of the extra pair of eyes



CT also ends Minato as its AOE is big enough to pull all of his marks and kunais and even if Minato can escape by teleporting to a pre-set mark in Konoha or in another location, he can't come back because all of his marks will be trapped inside CT sphere so it counts as a retreat and a loss by default.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 12, 2015)

If Minato tags Nagato then the latter will be in trouble.

But if Nagato can react to Minato's shunshin and hit with ST before a Hirashin mark can be landed on his body then Minato is in trouble.

Also if Nagato used CT I'm not sure how Minato could escape with his kunai being all drawn inside the sphere along with Minato himself. Even with SM I doubt Minato can make a hole in CT when KN6 bijuudamas couldn't.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

Naruto and most of his clones withstood and quickly recovered from shinra tensei in base:
[repel]
[repel]

Yet we can claim minato will be disorientated when the force wasnt even enough to get rid of shadow clones loool. Gtfo. Being disorientated doesnt mean you dont have the will power to throw a kunai, he diesnt even need to see, just throw it in the direction he was blown away from. And minato using mass amounts of clones like naruto , is the perfect counter. In tandem with ftg kunai.

Pains st recovery time and reaction speed was too slow to react to BASE narutos rasengan blitz. How Da actual Flip is he gonna react to minatos blitz and kunai throws that travel faster than kamui activation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2015)

Naruto had hundreds of shadowclones and they cushioned the push and resisted it, thats why a couple of them left standing among a hundred. 

Take into consideration that Minato cannot create as many clones as Naruto, and the fact that strength of Nagato's techniques are on an another level compared to Deva. 
You are left with one certainty. What you saw with Naruto and Deva isn't going to happen here.


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## Harbour (Oct 12, 2015)

> Minato vs Nagato





> Nagato lаcking mobility





Minato solo without restrictions for Nagato. Similar level of cheats but different levels of shinobi skills.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 12, 2015)

Minato wins. CST < Space Time Barrier. ST/BT < Shunshin evasion. Animal path summons < Boss toads. Asura Path < Rasengan. Naraka path < Konohamaru <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Minato. Human path < shushing evasion and flying raisin level 2 rasengan. Raengan < Preta path but Preta path < Gamabunta sword, + Gamayu end an will take long to absorb (assuming minato has fire style or bomb kunai or cigarrete lighter to perform with) and will keep him busy. Minato wins. Honestly, he is Jiraiya without SM but with extreme speed. Nagato just don't ave the skill to win. He lost to Itachi who admitted inferiority to Jiraiya who is on the same tier as Minato. in fact nagato himself admitted inferiority to the j man, who is a slower, space time lacking version of minato.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

I see multi shadow clone jutsu is still the most overrated jutsu of all time. A jutsu stated to used by those of hokage level and a select few.

Heres kakashi who is almost completely out of chakra, yet look how many shadow clones he made:
10
Imagine he was on full chakra, he coulda made a hundred. And his chakra isnt even on minatos level. 

Part1 naruto that defeated mizuki could make 100 clones and his base chakra at the time was not all that. He couldnt summon bunta with his base chakra. Yet we are claiming a hokage cant create 100 clones? The fodder in kakashi gaiden that minato solod could make 19 clones, and he was just a fodder.
So lets not act stupid and claim a hokage cant make more clones than early part 1 naruto. 

The strength of nagatos st was withstood by base bee and kcm naruto. Completely unscathed, the both of them. Not to mentiin deva had mobility, while nagato does not. Deva had no choice but to repel a small group of konoha fodder attacks with st because he couldnt evade them all. And en he barely evaded chojis kunai throws, and again, he was forced to use st against kakashos 1 kunai because he couldnt evade it.

minato can throw over two dozen kunai in nagatos direction at once from a distance. And he has no choice but to use st. In that brief interval, the minato throws another kunai and blitzes, as nagato cannot move or react to the kunai. Gets his throat slit and marked at the same time, just in case he doesnt die the first time. Thats without the use of clones. Now imagine with clones, nagato has no chance. Not when deva path was struggling with kunai feints from kakashi and choji. Hows an immobile version gonna fair against so,eone who can instantly teleport to said kunai. This is all assuming minato doesnt shunshin blitz him from the 15 m.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2015)

And again, Minato hasn't shown the capability of using Tajuu kagebunshin. 
Going by the amount of Kagebunshins they created when they were sustaining the barrier, Shodai created the most, then Tobirama and then Minato(and Minato was using KCM if I am not mistaken). There is no way Minato is creating tens of shadowclones, let alone hundreds.

Minato isn't blitzing Nagato unless he blindsides him with Hirashin or something, which isn't happening with shared vision and knowlege.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And again, Minato hasn't shown the capability of using Tajuu kagebunshin.
> Going by the amount of Kagebunshins they created when they were sustaining the barrier, Shodai created the most, then Tobirama and then Minato(and Minato was using KCM if I am not mistaken). There is no way Minato is creating tens of shadowclones, let alone hundreds.
> 
> Minato isn't blitzing Nagato unless he blindsides him with Hirashin or something, which isn't happening with shared vision and knowlege.



Common sense, use it. Minato made one clone while holding the barrier because he only needed one. He sensed his marking on obito so he used a clone to slit his throat. For what reason would he need more? Before that, he had no reason to make a clone. Tobirama warped two kurama avatars. While minato warped a juubi dama in base which is like 10x the size of both of them combined. Whats your point? So you need to see someone do something to know they can? Ok, hashirama cannot use deep forest bloom because he hasnt shown the capability of doing so. Third raikage cant use black lightning cuz he never shown the capability. Madara cant use the fireball jutsu because hes never shown to be able to.

Edo hiruzen created 4 clones. Alive old hiruzen created two clones. Putting his feats above kcm Minato. So by your logic, he has more chakra than kcm minato because you saw him use more clones right 

When an exhausted kakashi has already created dozens of clones. A kakashi with almost absolutely no chakra left. The same kakashi who stated he has low chakra reserves. 

You better find a better argument because those garbage excuses arent working here. Not when you have fodder who can create 19 clones like nothing. Databook states it to be a hokage level technique, as well as a select few (it was referring to kakashi). Minato who by fact has enormous chakra reserves, yet you think he cant make double the number of clones that chakra drained kakashi did. Use your stupid ass brain for once. The jutsu is about chakra, not skill. The number of clones is determined by how much chakra you can put into it. 

Anyone can make dozens of clones, but only those will large chakra can deal with the chakra drain afterwards. Naruto didnt blindside pain, still blitzed him and his speed is far inferior. Animal summons eyes get kunai in their eyes, toads deal with them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2015)

Hokages were trying to give alliance all the assistance they can give, so yes they used the max amount of bunshins they could use. Hashirama created 4, Tobirama created 2, Minato created 1, and Hiruzen didn't create any.

Plus when he was fighting Juubito, Minato only opted to use two Kagebunshins. He had Kyuubi's chakra resources and he was an edo. Using TKB is completely OOC for him.

But here, not only you are assuming that Minato can use TKB, you are assuming that he can fight effectively with it. 
Then it is only fair to assume Nagato can do the same. Or any other character capable of using kagebunshin for that matter. 
That pretty much eleminates any advantage TKB will give Minato.


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## LostSelf (Oct 12, 2015)

Nagato lacking mobility is not much of a problem.

The man can go inside his invisible chameleon who cannot be detected by sensing and can attack from blindspots.

Or he just flies and outlasts. Or uses Chibaku Tensei.

Or like i said: activated ST before Minato hits him. Jutsus like that are good counters for speedesters, as they can be used at thought speed.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 12, 2015)

*@Grimmjow :*

First Part Naruto<a bit of Kurama's chakra<<<<<KCM 

And you are saying that  KCM user can't use some clones , , what you are saying is just a total nonsens .

Minato is a Senjutsu user , only chosen peaople with an anormaly huge amout of chakra can master it , even a Senju descendant like Tsunade couldn't master it while she can summon Shiktsurin slugs .

First Part Naruto can't summon Bunta by himself because he don't have enough chakra while Minato could do it when he was at the same age , now just imagine 24 years old Minato... It obvious that base Minato can use Taijuu Kage Bunshin .

Plus Nagato's ST can't even damage Kakashi when he is pressured , so ... he can't stand 5 seconds against Minato without ST .


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Or like i said: activated ST before Minato hits him. Jutsus like that are good counters for speedesters, as they can be used at thought speed.


He can't, Minato arrived at Judara with a Rasengan and in SM before Kamui completed by throwing a kunai 30m. 

ST isn't faster than Kamui, Minato kills him with 15m start distance- no problem.


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## Zef (Oct 12, 2015)

Nagato is complete but lacks mobility?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 12, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *@Grimmjow :*
> 
> First Part Naruto<a bit of Kurama's chakra<<<<<KCM
> 
> ...



Part 1 Naruto also lacked chakra efficiency. [4]
[4]
He used excessive amounts of stamina because he couldn't mold chakra well.

Jiriaya also has huge amounts of chakra and yet he never used TKB. 
Being able to use it, and being able to effectively use it are two completely different concepts.

Minato IC doesn't use TKB(no evidence that he has the capability either, other than scaling from part 1 Naruto). If we grant that ability to him, based on part 1 Naruto, then anyone who has the chakra enough to summon a boss summon, including Hebi Sasuke, who summoned manda at extremely low chakra reserves, should be able to use TKB. That includes majority of narutoverse characters, given Sasuke isn't even close to being a chakra monster.

As for Nagato'S ST on Kakashi, you meant to say that Deva realms ST which was used when all the other paths were active. The strength of Deva's powers increased when Nagato focused all his power on him. Naruto admitted that Nagato's powers were on a different level. 

Even if you take the ST used against Kakashi as a base standart, Minato isn't tanking many of those. And yes Nagato surely can stand against Minato for 5 seconds with absorbtion, and Asura's powers.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hokages were trying to give alliance all the assistance they can give, so yes they used the max amount of bunshins they could use. Hashirama created 4, Tobirama created 2, Minato created 1, and Hiruzen didn't create any.
> 
> Plus when he was fighting Juubito, Minato only opted to use two Kagebunshins. He had Kyuubi's chakra resources and he was an edo. Using TKB is completely OOC for him.
> 
> ...


Erm no. Jinchuuriki minato has more chakra than tobirama, so stop with this nonsense. Minato didnt use clones because he had no need to. Tobirama only made clones when madara was about to be ressurected, so he sent his clones to stop him. He didnt do it because he was supporting the alliance, people like you who make up crap just to try and prove a failing point, try reading the manga. By your logic, why didnt naruto make any clones at that time? Since hes the best at it? 

Hokage level minato cant use tkb better than pre genin naruto? 

Wrong again. The real minato was with naruto and sasuke. While the clone was the one attacking juubito. A clone by itself isnt gonna be enough to take on juubito, thats why the clone noted that it needed to summon the original to himself. Clones are slower with ftg, so think for a second. Minato planned to use an ftg based jutsu with the purpose of attacking juubito without giving him time to react. So why would minato make more clones when he needs to be as fast as possible? Actually try and think before you spout all this retarded dribble.

TKB is a hidden leaf ninjutsu, a hokage level ninjutsu at that. Its already clearly stated its mainly used by those of hokage level . If you can use kb, then you can use tkb. Nagato has never used the shadow clone jutsu, nor is he from konoha, so take your sorry ass example outta here.

Its out of character for kakashi as well, yet he still knows it. He has less chakra than minato, yet can still ise it. Its not out of character, how many fights have you seen minato in? You use techniques that suit the situation. Summoning a turtle is out of character for gai, but if he needs it for a specific purpose, then he'll use it. Minato is much smarter than naruto, if naruto can come up with enduring st like that, so can minato.


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## LostSelf (Oct 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can't, Minato arrived at Judara with a Rasengan and in SM before Kamui completed by throwing a kunai 30m.
> 
> ST isn't faster than Kamui, Minato kills him with 15m start distance- no problem.



ST's activation is as instant as Kamui-Susano'o, etc. in activation speed.

I think that was more a coordinated attack. Gaara as well lifted an amount of sand before Kamui was completed.

However, sensing has shown to be very effective when it comes to countering Hiraishin. Madara's an example of that. Sure enough, Nagato's not able to physically dodge Minato's attempt with a combo like that.

But instantaneous activation jutsus has as well been proven to be faster than Minato's movement speed, as we saw Sasuke manifesting Susano'o before KCM Minato touched his left shoulder in desesperation.

Nagato happens to have those two things. But it's something i've been debating for quite a long time, and i can accept people saying Minato wins under this circunstances.

We might be ending to agree to disagree.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 12, 2015)

*@Grimmjow*

Ok , then what would you say about Tendo Full Power , he tanked his own ST while he was pressured against KN6 Naruto , you think that he is as durable as giant frogs ?

As for Minato :
-First Part Naruto without good chakra control can use about 1000 clones .
-The same Naruto can't summon Gama Bunta by his own .
-Kid Minato can summon Gama Bunta .

If we count chakra control+quantity , then :
First Part Naruto < Kid Minato << Kyubi's attack Minato .

Minato can clearly and easily use TKB . He is a Senjutsu user , a man with abnormal chakra quantity , even higher than the likes of Tsunade who can't use Shikkotsurin Senjutsu .

As for KCM Minato his chakra quantity is in a hole another level than base War Arc Naruto .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 13, 2015)

Giant frogs are heavy as shit, heavier they are, harder they fall. 
Naruto with his clones resisted that ST, you don't think base Naruto and his clones are stronger and more durable than giant frogs do you ?

About TKB part, I already explained it. If your go to argument is the fact that Naruto can't summon a boss summon, then anyone who is capable of doing it, should be able to use TKB. 


However, going by what we have seen, Minato IC doesn't use TKB, nor he has shown the capability of effectively using it. He is also a shitty senjutsu user, if that counts for something(confirmed by Kakashi and himself). It takes one rasengan for him to deplete his sage chakra, which means he actually doesn't have large reserves like Naruto does.

If you are going there, then I guess you have to assume that Hebi Sasuke(and everyone else who meets the requirements) too can create thousands of clones and fight efficiently.


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## thechickensage (Oct 13, 2015)

Minato said he wasn't that great as a sage, but if you look at many statements by Minato, he is very humble and self-deprecatory despite his extraordinary skill.

He says he was no good at sage mode, yet was a perfect sage like Naruto (no partial transformation like Jiraiya), though had a lower time limit.  

He also gathered enough Nature chakra in a tiny amount of time to instantly activate sage mode, so he's definitely not "a shitty senjutsu user"

As for TKB....he necessarily has massive chakra reserves by being able to use sage mode in the first place, but also he has enough chakra to contain and defeat a 1/2 kyuubi.  And he has enough chakra to be in both modes at the same time.  Maybe not fields of fodder Naruto clones, but far more shadow clones than most advanced shinobi.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Giant frogs are heavy as shit, heavier they are, harder they fall.
> Naruto with his clones resisted that ST, you don't think base Naruto and his clones are stronger and more durable than giant frogs do you ?
> 
> About TKB part, I already explained it. If your go to argument is the fact that Naruto can't summon a boss summon, then anyone who is capable of doing it, should be able to use TKB.
> ...


I have already said that Tendo can easily tank his own ST when he is pressured and he was at full power :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Any average ninja in physical durability can can tank it easily in such a situation .

Naruto didn't use TKB against Juubito and Juudara , so he can't use it :
You think that KCM chakra quantity is lower than just a bit Naruto received when he was child  KCM Minato can creaste tens of thousands clones if he wants and can easily create 1000 clone in base mode .

Minato simply don't use TKB , .it'snt his style , just like Hahsirama doesn't use it (so also Hahsirama can't use TKB  ) . Clones are just divded strengh and they are weak , and even much weaker when they are so many . That doesn't make any sens .

If Minato can easily summon Gama Bunta , then he can easily use TKB like did child Naruto , *you have nothing to say about that* (and yeah Iam talking about charka control+quantity) .

Plus shit Senjutsu user or not , just the fact to master it is making him one of the chosen ones with anormally large amount of chakra like said Fukasaku , *For the second time you can't counter that .*


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## Arles Celes (Oct 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Naruto and most of his clones withstood and quickly recovered from shinra tensei in base:
> [repel]
> [repel]
> 
> ...



Pain could make his ST more powerful though. Powerful enough to one shoot boss summons and not lose his power for long. He also owned Kakashi with it.

And by the end of his fight with Naruto he was so tired that he stumbled so no wonder that he got hit with a regular rasengan from base Naruto.

Minato won't die at first shot obviously but getting hit over and over again will certainly lead to his death unless he can outsmart Nagato and make him move close to one of his marked kunai so he can blitz him. Nagato got also nice durability as he was undamaged by V2 Bee's lariat. And he can absorb rasengans.

Minato is rather smart though and if Nagato does not know how Hirashin works he may be fooled. It won't be easy though even then.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 13, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I have already said that Tendo can easily tank his own ST when he is pressured and he was at full power :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Just like Kakashi and Akimichi's.




> Naruto didn't use TKB against Juubito and Juudara , so he can't use it :
> You think that KCM chakra quantity is lower than just a bit Naruto received when he was child  KCM Minato can creaste tens of thousands clones if he wants and can easily create 1000 clone in base mode .


It is a known fact that Naruto can and in fact does use TKB. 
You are trying to make a link between that and someone who never used it. Thats a shitty argument.

By the same token, every character can use it because summoning a boss summon doesn't take too much chakra. I'm glad that Itachi using hundreds of Karasbunshins became a legit argument now.



> Minato simply don't use TKB , .it'snt his style ,


These are your words, not mine 



> If Minato can easily summon Gama Bunta , then he can easily use TKB like did child Naruto , *you have nothing to say about that* (and yeah Iam talking about charka control+quantity) .


I already said  what needs to be said.
Sasuke summoned a boss summon at very low chakra reserves. That means Sasuke can use TKB too. And anyone with comparable chakra levels.



> Plus shit Senjutsu user or not , just the fact to master it is making him one of the chosen ones with anormally large amount of chakra like said Fukasaku , *For the second time you can't counter that .*


I already countered it.
Minato spent his whole sage mode with 1 rasengan. I guess his chakra reserves aren't that great afterall.


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2015)

ST itself is not dangerous in my opinoin (and no one actually died from it, not Deva, not Kakashi, Choji, Choza, Naruto, Hinata...etc etc). Its danger is based on the surrounding area and what whoever being thrown away gets crushed into so to speak. 

Otherwise, it's just push...


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## hbcaptain (Oct 13, 2015)

> Just like Kakashi and Akimichi's.


Euh no , because we are talking about Full Power Tendo here so 
I am just showing you that pressured Nagato can't use St strong enough to blitz average ninjas .




> By the same token, every character can use it because summoning a boss summon doesn't take too much chakra. I'm glad that Itachi using hundreds of Karasbunshins became a legit argument now.


No , Jiraya himself said that First Part Naruto can't summon GamaBunta using only his chakra so...




> These are your words, not mine


Yeah , Jiraya , Hashirama , Tobirama was never shown using TKB , so they can't :dabuq
Your argument is irrelevant .




> I already said  what needs to be said.
> Sasuke summoned a boss summon at very low chakra reserves. That means Sasuke can use TKB too. And anyone with comparable chakra levels.


If he masters TKB , he can use it , Sasuke was always someone with a large amout of chakra , and chakra quantity is growing proportionatly to the Shinobis growth . For exemple Kakashi said that noraml kids don't have enough chakra to use Katon Goukakyu no Jutsu while an adult can .




> I already countered it.
> Minato spent his whole sage mode with 1 rasengan. I guess his chakra reserves aren't that great afterall.


The fact to master Senjutsu = anormaly amout of chakra , even the Shity Senjutsu like you said hae a lot of chakra .

Base Minato's chakra quantity is just enormous .


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't think this debate will go anywhere honestly.

People were saying that Minato can't use even a single clone because he did not show so, and when he actually
did they said it was because of Kurama's chakra and that his maximum (even with Kurama) is 1 clone (because he only showed 1) and it's because of the ET that he did not fall from exhaustion.

And that's about 1 clone, it took them years to accept it, and you want to convince someone about several ones? 

Heck, some of them back then said he does not even know how to use a clone when he was alive (because he did not show it while living)
and that those moves came with ET.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 13, 2015)

MInato can certainly make more than one clone without even Kurama.

If Kakashi and Itachi both of whom posses rather average chakra reserves can make like 2-4 clones then Minato who can even use SM should be able to use more.

Obviously not 1000 like Naruto but...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 13, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euh no , because we are talking about Full Power Tendo here so
> I am just showing you that pressured Nagato can't use St strong enough to blitz average ninjas .


We know that Kakashi and Akamichi's were all knocked out by 1/6 powered Deva's ST. 
Unless you can prove that Minato is as durable as Deva realm, there is no point in saying that Deva tanked his own ST. 
I am not saying that Minato will die after 1 push. I am just saying that powerful ST will end up hurting him. Even if he isn't hurt badly, he can't just get up like nothing happened and attack Nagato during the interval.
ST provides enough defense for Nagato to keep Minato and his marks at a certain distance.
And if a powerful ST lands, then Minato will be hurt badly.


> No , Jiraya himself said that First Part Naruto can't summon GamaBunta using only his chakra so...


That s irrelevant, Sasuke summoned manda with very low chakra reserves. Itachi outlasted the same Hebi Sasuke.
Unless you think the remaining chakra of post Deidara fight Sasuke was more than the whole chakra pool of Itachi, then yes Itachi should have the chakra reserves to summon a boss summon, meaning he can spam 100's of clones, like  you are claiming.




> Yeah , Jiraya , Hashirama , Tobirama was never shown using TKB , so they can't :dabuq
> Your argument is irrelevant .


Hashirama's chakra was directly compared to BM Naruto's, so he should be able to use it. 
Jiraiya didn't use TKB in a fight where he went all out, he in fact only used 1 or two bunshins in total, so yes it is meaningless to debate whether he can or can't, when we both know that he won't. Same argument applies to Minato as well.



> If he masters TKB , he can use it , Sasuke was always someone with a large amout of chakra , and chakra quantity is growing proportionatly to the Shinobis growth . For exemple Kakashi said that noraml kids don't have enough chakra to use Katon Goukakyu no Jutsu while an adult can .


Sasuke has a little above Average stamina score in the databook. It is by no means large. 



> The fact to master Senjutsu = anormaly amout of chakra , even the Shity Senjutsu like you said hae a lot of chakra .
> 
> Base Minato's chakra quantity is just enormous .


Toads words are unquantifiable.
Even if we assume that Minato has large amounts of chakra, apparently it isn't enough to sustain SM for long, like Naruto can. We can safely assume that his chakra reserves are alot lower than Naruto's.
Actually other than that vague scan, there is no comment on Minato's chakra reserves in the entire manga.
And given Minato's fighting style, I highly doubt he has high chakra reserves enough to spam TKB.
At the very best I'd place him around Jiraiya's level when it comes to chakra levels.


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## Kyu (Oct 13, 2015)

>Massive reserves are required to draw upon natural energy

>Minato draws on natural energy 

>Him meeting the criteria still up for debate


Lack of practice due to the sage arts deviating from his established fighting style of constant motion is what halted Minato's progression as a Sage. Gathering natural energy takes too long by _his_ standards. Notice how he entered Sage Mode rather quickly against Madara.

____


As for TKB, not only is that extremely out of character for Minato, he can't afford to split his chakra into hundreds of bodies and expect them to have enough left pumped in them to tank a super ST. 

Only two human Sages can spread their chakra hundreds of ways and have a ton to spare: Naruto & Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2015)

> Only one human Sage can spread his chakra hundreds of ways and have a ton to spare: Naruto



fixed it for you.


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## Kyu (Oct 13, 2015)




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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2015)

I'll accept your apology this time.  
& remember Narudo had to change his charka to fix everyone. He is too good.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 13, 2015)

> ST's activation is as instant as Kamui-Susano'o, etc. in activation speed.


ST as fast as Kamui & Susano manifestation? What led you to believe this?

Not really sure why that matters considering Minato already outsped Kamui multiple times on panel by warping out of it and traveling a distance of 30m before it could even complete. 



> I think that was more a coordinated attack. Gaara as well lifted an amount of sand before Kamui was completed.


We're talking about different feats, you're referring to the truthseeker interceptions I'm referring to Judara being attacked by SM Minato.



> But instantaneous activation jutsus has as well been proven to be faster than Minato's movement speed, as we saw Sasuke manifesting Susano'o before KCM Minato touched his left shoulder in desesperation.


Not really. Kamui wasn't activated to protect Obito from Minato's first attack, then his second warp to tag Obito's torso with reverse contract seal, and Minato warped out of Kamui while it was sucking him in initially. Your logic is Nagato can react and activate ST before Obito can activate intangible Kamui, before Obito can finish sucking a target in with grab Kamui or before Kakashi can finish an already started Kamui warp on Obito?

Again I refer to Minato throwing a kunai 30m, entering SM, and arriving at Judara with a Rasengan all while Kamui was being used by Kakashi- and failed to complete. 

He can do all this faster than Kamui, please explain how Nagato reacts to a blitzer who can travel 30m before Kamui completes and arrive with a Rasengan. 

Even if ST activation is as fast as Kamui- Minato is faster than Kamui he proved it against Obito & while teamed with Kakashi. He can get 15m with a kunai throw in the dirt, arrive with Rasengan and slam it into Nagato before he finishes activating ST the same way he got 30m with a kunai throw in the dirt, then entered SM and arrived with a Rasengan before Kakashi finished activating Kamui.

Half the distance, doesn't have to enter SM this time. I see no reason why he doesn't arrive at Nagato and then slash him before ST is activated.


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## ARGUS (Oct 14, 2015)

ST is instantly activated upon users thought 
Kamui still has a warping speed which is what allowed minato to escape with FTG despite using it afterwards 
Hence ST and FTG are faster than kamui


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

Nothing is instant dude, the closest thing to instant is FTG. 

Then the question becomes whether or not Nagato thinks fast enough to activate it, and I highly doubt he thinks faster then it takes an already activated Kamui to open a warp hole, and it takes less time than that for Minato to blitz and fatally wound him. 

Obito certainly couldn't think to use Kamui quick enough to avoid Minato's Rasengan into the back, nor his tag in front subsequently after. This being his own bodily version, which by and large is considered faster than the grab-warp and range-warp.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> ST is instantly activated upon users thought.



That's not true. Shinra Tensei does not happen at the speed of thought. It's just another jutsu that doesn't require seals.

For example, if a kunai is thrown at Nagato, the first thought is "oh look, a kunai." Then the combat reflex (which is to use Shinra Tensei in this case) kicks in, Shinra Tensei is activated, and after a split second, the kunai will go flying the other way.

You seem to think that if a kunai is thrown at Nagato, the first thought will send the kunai flying the other way. That is wrong.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

ST moves at light speed, and since none of the characters in Narutoverse are even close to that speed ballpark, none of them register it. So it is safe to say that a mere thought is all it takes to send the kunai flying away.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Your conclusion has nothing to do with your explanation of how you reached it, let alone my post. I didn't even address Shinra Tensei's travel speed, mainly because I don't know (and don't care) if it actually travels at all.


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## LostSelf (Oct 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> ST as fast as Kamui & Susano manifestation? What led you to believe this?



Because it's cast right when the user activate it. I'm talking about the activation, not the travel speed. Minato being close, he might meet with ST considering that it'll come from Nagato's body, from the opposite direction Minato's attack is going and Nagato just needs to think in order to do so.



> Not really sure why that matters considering Minato already outsped Kamui multiple times on panel by warping out of it and traveling a distance of 30m before it could even complete.
> 
> We're talking about different feats, you're referring to the truthseeker interceptions I'm referring to Judara being attacked by SM Minato.



I'm talking about the same instance. When Gaara crouched and used his sand, Kakashi used Kamui. But while Kamui was still manifestating, the sand formed faster. 



> Not really. Kamui wasn't activated to protect Obito from Minato's first attack, then his second warp to tag Obito's torso with reverse contract seal, and Minato warped out of Kamui while it was sucking him in initially. Your logic is Nagato can react and activate ST before Obito can activate intangible Kamui, before Obito can finish sucking a target in with grab Kamui or before Kakashi can finish an already started Kamui warp on Obito?



Minato escaped Kamui because Obito said he didn't try to absorb him fast. (Or that he could absorb him fast enough). After that, Obito didn't have a time to absorb him again.

With Obito's feat made me change my mind about it's activation. I've seen Kamui activates as a passive ability, not sure. But it surely can't be on "thought" (even though it can be fast) because when Minato warped, Obito had time to think and realize what was happening, yet, he couldn't activate his barrier.

Sensing Nagato with his durability and his instant jutsu in activation should catch Minato before he hits Nagato or mid-hit.




> Again I refer to Minato throwing a kunai 30m, entering SM, and arriving at Judara with a Rasengan all while Kamui was being used by Kakashi- and failed to complete.
> 
> He can do all this faster than Kamui, please explain how Nagato reacts to a blitzer who can travel 30m before Kamui completes and arrive with a Rasengan.
> 
> ...



I covered this above. From the coordinated attack, Obito's phasing speed, and Nagato's). Aside from that, i really doubt that Minato is going to kill the man who was hit by a direct V2 lariat and shrugged it off to absorb it later with a Rasengan.

I see at best, Minato managing to hit Nagato with Rasengan and being blasted away before he leaves.  But i have no problems with your point of view, like i said. I don't see Minato one-panneling a man with Nagato's caliber (or above).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your conclusion has nothing to do with your explanation of how you reached it, let alone my post. I didn't even address Shinra Tensei's travel speed, mainly because I don't know (and don't care) if it actually travels at all.



A thought activates shinra tensei.
The speed of the gravitational waves arriving at their destined target is at light speed.
So yes, Nagato thoughts about deflecting the kunai and and the kunai is deflected simultaneously. 

If you are including things like Nagato percieving the moving kunai, telling his chakra system to mold chakra to activate shinra tensei, etc, then it applies to every single jutsu and it is something that you can safely overlook.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

one grain of sand moving at light speed can generate nuclear level explosion , so no Nagato's ST isn't moving at light speed . And Nagato's ST is weak when he is pressured .

Tendo who has at most an average ninja durability can (one basic rasengan=beeing killed) can easily take it at such a situation .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> one grain of sand moving at light speed can generate nuclear level explosion , so no Nagato's ST isn't moving at light speed . And Nagato's ST is weak when he is pressured .
> 
> Tendo who has at most an average ninja durability can (one basic rasengan=beeing killed) can easily take it at such a situation .



ST doesn't have mass, it just warps the space the same way gravity does. Gravitational waves travel at light speed and they don't cause nuclear explosions.


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## thechickensage (Oct 14, 2015)

Why do you think ST travels at light speed?  That is absurd...

You DO realize that gravity only attracts?  

There is no reason to claim it travels at the speed of light


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

Even if it travel at light speed , Nagato need some time to concentrate chakra in his eyes and use ST that's why he can't produce high level waves when he is pressured , plus 5 seconds without ST against someone like Minato , good luck .


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## Legend777 (Oct 14, 2015)

Can you show me where its stated that ST = Gravitational waves ? I am not sure that Gravitational waves can simply just negate Ninjutsu on contact.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Shinra Tensei is simply manipulating repulsion, if he wants to repel something,  it is instant, whether or not it can withstand the attack or not, it's effect is instantaneous, I am not sure how anyone can even question this. It doesn't have travel speed, it's a push.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So yes, Nagato thoughts about deflecting the kunai and and the kunai is deflected simultaneously.
> 
> If you are including things like Nagato percieving the moving kunai, telling his chakra system to mold chakra to activate shinra tensei, etc, then it applies to every single jutsu and it is something that you can safely overlook.



Now why would we overlook the steps to successfully executing a jutsu when discussing the speed at which Nagato can defend himself?  The "I must deflect that" reflex does not occur simultaneously with the actual deflection. That would make no sense. 

I've seen many people act as if ninja (or their jutsu) need to be faster than Nagato can form a thought in order to get to him before being launched hundreds of meters away by Shinra Tensei. That is wrong.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Why do you think ST travels at light speed?  That is absurd...
> 
> You DO realize that gravity only attracts?
> 
> There is no reason to claim it travels at the speed of light



Kakashi likened it to gravitational forces. 

Einstein suggested that gravitational waves traveled at light speed, and some experiments seems to have correlated with his findings. You can look it up.

If BT is exact replica of gravity, then ST would act like anti gravity, but I assume it would run with similar princibles.




hbcaptain said:


> Even if it travel at light speed , Nagato need some time to concentrate chakra in his eyes and use ST that's why he can't produce high level waves when he is pressured , plus 5 seconds without ST against someone like Minato , good luck .



Minato can't avoid ST, he will always get hit, unless he preempts it and teleports before ST is used.

And Nagato with absorbtion barrier, shared vision and Asura's extra limbs and weaponary can easily hold his own against Minato for 5 seconds. It is absurd to think otherwise.



Rocky said:


> Now why would we overlook the steps to successfully executing a jutsu when discussing the speed at which Nagato can defend himself?  The "I must deflect that" reflex does not occur simultaneously with the actual deflection. That would make no sense.



I agree,  but like I said that applies to every jutsu. In that sense, Hirashin isn't instant, Minato needs to follow the same steps to use Hirashin.



> I've seen many people act as if ninja (or their jutsu) need to be faster than Nagato can form a thought in order to get to him before being launched hundreds of meters away by Shinra Tensei. That is wrong.


It is actually true. 
No one can avoid ST. All you can do is to preempt it, move out of its reach before Nagato uses it, so he fires a blank. Or just tank it.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Nothing would avoid ST. If he wants to push you, you're getting pushed. It is possible to resist however.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

> Minato can't avoid ST, he will always get hit, unless he preempts it and teleports before ST is used.
> 
> And Nagato with absorbtion barrier, shared vision and Asura's extra limbs and weaponary can easily hold his own against Minato for 5 seconds. It is absurd to think otherwise.


Iam not saying Minato can avoid , but he can tank it without damage in such a situation , plus he knows about the 5 seconds between 2 ST , he is smarter than Kakashi and his base speed/reflexes are far better than the copy ninja . He can elaborate strategies using clones and FTG , Shurado/Gakido or not he can at least mark him , if Nagato is marked then he is screwed .


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

ST would hit him, thing is, it has a delay, Minato would ghost his ass so quick during that delay it's not even funny. If he wants to put more force into his attack that would require more time, and time against Minato is something someone doesn't have.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree,  but like I said that applies to every jutsu. In that sense, Hirashin isn't instant, Minato needs to follow the same steps to use Hirashin.



You questioned this before? That fact literally cost him his arm against Jūbi Obito.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No one can avoid ST. All you can do is to preempt it, move out of its reach before Nagato uses it, so he fires a blank. Or just tank it.



If "preempting it" means slitting Nagato's throat before he can manage to get it off, then sure.

As a side note, dodging it isn't out of the question. Rokubi Naruto planted his tails into the ground after its activation to prevent himself from being flung. Replace the tail planting with a speed technique like Hiraishin or a fully amplified lighting flicker, and Nagato probably misses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You questioned this before? That fact literally cost him his arm against Jūbi Obito.


Thats more related to what happened after Hirashin though.
We never consider the time it takes to execute Hirashin. As long as he can react, we consider that he can execute it. Same goes for any other thought activated technique.



> If "preempting it" means slitting Nagato's throat before he can manage to get it off, then sure.


Preempting means, knowing that it is going to happen and act accordingly. In this case, teleporting a split second before Nagato fires off ST. 



> As a side note, dodging it isn't out of the question. Rokubi Naruto planted his tails into the ground after its activation to prevent himself from being flung. Replace the tail planting with a speed technique like Hiraishin or a fully amplified lighting flicker, and Nagato probably misses.



Sure but Minato can't get rid of the momentum, so even if he Hirashins right after he is pushed by ST, he will land wherever he is landing with that momentum, and most likely it will be the ground. So he will still get hurt.



hbcaptain said:


> Iam not saying Minato can avoid , but he can tank it without damage in such a situation , plus he knows about the 5 seconds between 2 ST , he is smarter than Kakashi and his base speed/reflexes are far better than the copy ninja . He can elaborate strategies using clones and FTG , Shurado/Gakido or not he can at least mark him , if Nagato is marked then he is screwed .



Minato isn't durable enough to tank it without damage. If he gets hit, he will be disoriented at the very worst case. So he can't just get up and attack Nagato during the interval.
He can however exploit the interval with a bunshin, but then, whats he going to do Nagato unless he manages to blindside him ? 
Shared vision reduces the effectiveness of Hirashin greatly, even if Minato teleports behind Nagato he will be seen and reacted. Just remember how B got shat on. Same thing can happen to Minato.

Absorbtion barrier, makes rasengan useless and Asura's limbs and gadgets can block a kunai easily. 

Even if Minato marks Nagato, I don't see him bringing him down easily. But then, I don't see him marking Nagato in the first place.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats more related to what happened after Hirashin though.



No clue what you're talking about. 

KCM Minato saw Obito's arm moving towards him, realized what was about to happen, and _still_ lost his arm before he could jump.

If Hiraishin was activated simultaneous with Minato's ability to think, he would have been back at the group instead of thinking "I'm fucked" and losing an arm.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure but Minato can't get rid of the momentum, so even if he Hirashins right after he is pushed by ST, he will land wherever he is landing with that momentum, and most likely it will be the ground. So he will still get hurt.



Minato went from a full sprint to floating above Obito during the flashback, so Hiraishin can stop momentum. 

But you missed my actual point. Rokubi Naruto planted the tails before Shinra Tensei actually pushed him anywhere from the looks of it. That would mean that there is an interval for Minato to leave before Shinra Tensei actually pushes him anywhere.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

> Minato isn't durable enough to tank it without damage. If he gets hit, he will be disoriented at the very worst case. So he can't just get up and attack Nagato during the interval.
> He can however exploit the interval with a bunshin, but then, whats he going to do Nagato unless he manages to blindside him ?
> Shared vision reduces the effectiveness of Hirashin greatly, even if Minato teleports behind Nagato he will be seen and reacted. Just remember how B got shat on. Same thing can happen to Minato.


Minato can use CLONES+FTG to make a countless numbers of possible diversions like did Kakashi and the Akimichi against Tendo , he has just to delude Nagato using some tactics without exposing the real body to blitz him or at least mark him .




> Absorbtion barrier, makes rasengan useless and Asura's limbs and gadgets can block a kunai easily.


What's about headshot Kunai ? you think that Nagato is fast enough to deal with Minato+Hiraishin combos just by Shurado and shared vision 



> Even if Minato marks Nagato, I don't see him bringing him down easily. But then, I don't see him marking Nagato in the first place.


No , Minato's Kunai are very fast , Shurado can't deal with it . If Nagato is marked , that mean he is killed , Minato can easily blitz him by a Kunai on the heart or head .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No clue what you're talking about.
> 
> KCM Minato saw Obito's arm moving towards him, realized what was about to happen, and _still_ lost his arm before he could jump.
> 
> If Hiraishin was activated simultaneous with Minato's ability to think, he would have been back at the group instead of thinking "I'm fucked" and losing an arm.


He simply couldn't react quick enough. Which comes down to what I'm saying.
As long as he can react, we assume he can execute the technique.



> Minato went from a full sprint to floating above Obito during the flashback, so Hiraishin can stop momentum.


Thats against the laws of physics, you can't erase momentum. 
I think Minato somehow dispositioned himself, so his horizontal momentum shifted into a vertical one. Although I wouldn't take this as a reliable explanation. 
Probably Kishimoto didn't think too much into it. 
But logicaly if Minato is hit by ST, regardless of where he teleports(assuming he isn't disoriented by the push) he will crash land.



> But you missed my actual point. Rokubi Naruto planted the tails before Shinra Tensei actually pushed him anywhere from the looks of it. That would mean that there is an interval for Minato to leave before Shinra Tensei actually pushes him anywhere.


Probably he preempted it and planted his tails simultaneously.

The other explanation proposes that Rokubi Naruto has FTL reaction speed.



hbcaptain said:


> Minato can use CLONES+FTG to make a countless numbers of possible diversions like did Kakashi and the Akimichi against Tendo , he has just to delude Nagato using some tactics without exposing the real body to blitz him or at least mark him .


Minato needs trial and error to be able come up with those strategies. That means he is giving Nagato information. 
I just don't see Minato succeeding here, because he is more one dimensional than Kakashi and Nagato is more resourceful than Deva realm.



> What's about headshot Kunai ? you think that Nagato is fast enough to deal with Minato+Hiraishin combos just by Shurado and shared vision


That assumes Nagato can't move his head. 
And yes, Minato's biggest weapon is the surprise factor, and blindsiding his opponent. Shared vision removes that possibility, and as long as Nagato knows his whereabouts, he can defend himself.
Thats why I think Nagato is a bad match up against Minato. 



> No , Minato's Kunai are very fast , Shurado can't deal with it . If Nagato is marked , that mean he is killed , Minato can easily blitz him by a Kunai on the heart or head .


Minato's body speed isn't fast enough to blitz Nagato. If he teleports behind Nagato's back, he eats an instant ST. If it is during the interval, he gets blocked by Asura's limbs.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

since when were the laws of physics even a factor in naruto? It's been defied many times. come on now. Ninja can breathe on the moon for goodness sake


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He simply couldn't react quick enough. Which comes down to what I'm saying.
> As long as he can react, we assume he can execute the technique.



Do you realize that you are telling me that Minato can use Hiraishin as long as he can use Hiraishin?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats against the laws of physics



Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about the laws of physics. Characters like A , Gai, and Naruto can accelerate to massively hypersonic speeds at the drop of a dime, and decelerate from those same speeds at the drop of another. 

Magical ninja speed ≠real life.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The other explanation proposes that Rokubi Naruto has FTL reaction speed.



Or it takes a moment for the gravity force to take effect after the technique's activation. This is probably illustrated best by the colored distortion in the anime:



Assuming he had knowledge, Minato could jump away while that distortion is taking place, before he goes anywhere.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:
			
		

> Minato needs trial and error to be able come up with those strategies. That means he is giving Nagato information.


What ? Minato knows about Nagato's weakness in this thread , he can elaborate a strategy without making experiences like Kakashi .



> I just don't see Minato succeeding here, because he is more one dimensional than Kakashi and Nagato is more resourceful than Deva realm.


Nagato is stronger than Tendo but Minato is by far stronger than Pain Arc Kakashi , he totaly outclass him in every field so .... Plus FTG+KB+Minato's brain>>>>any 3TS Kakashi's combo




> That assumes Nagato can't move his head.
> And yes, Minato's biggest weapon is the surprise factor, and blindsiding his opponent. Shared vision removes that possibility, and as long as Nagato knows his whereabouts, he can defend himself.
> Thats why I think Nagato is a bad match up against Minato.


No ,Minato's moves are too fast and impredictable , imagine if Minato throws out six kunais at close range , and he can teleport to every Kunai he lauched instantly , what Nagato could do about that , not even talking about base Minato's high speed moves .... he will be at least marked , and marked=killed with a Kunai in the head before even reacting to it . 




> Minato's body speed isn't fast enough to blitz Nagato. If he teleports behind Nagato's back, he eats an instant ST. If it is during the interval, he gets blocked by Asura's limbs.


[/QUOTE]
Euuh , no Minato's reflexes>>>Nagato , plus Nagato can't even notice the marking because he is always well covered ,
Beeng marked = instant kill , it was Juubito's case against ennemies much slower than him , now we are talking about Minato who is much faster and smarter than Nagato ....


----------



## thechickensage (Oct 14, 2015)

Its a big mistake in logic to assume that because push and pull reminds you of gravity, it must therefore propagate at the speed of light.

Neither the push nor the pull travels that fast.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Do you realize that you are telling me that Minato can use Hiraishin as long as he can use Hiraishin?


I'm saying that as long as he can react, he can execute the technique. 



> Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about the laws of physics. Characters like A , Gai, and Naruto can accelerate to massively hypersonic speeds at the drop of a dime, and decelerate from those same speeds at the drop of another.
> 
> Magical ninja speed ≠real life.



If they have the power/agility to accelerate to that speed, they have the power/agility to stop themselves. That is an entirely different matter.
Minato needs to exert counter force to stop the force of ST. If he is thrown around, then he isn't magically stopping. He needs to brace himself in someway to halt that momentum.

There are magical moments in Naruto for sure, but we can't dismiss common sense because of that, especially in BD where shit like plot doesn't exist.



> Or it takes a moment for the gravity force to take effect after the technique's activation. This is probably illustrated best by the colored distortion in the anime:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming he had knowledge, Minato could jump away while that distortion is taking place, before he goes anywhere.



I always thought it was just visual emphasis, It is hard to illustrate someone being pulled in without an indicator. Or maybe BT takes effect slowly. 

But Shinra tensei wasn't illustrated that way, ever IIRC. 

Naruto and Bee who knocked the Gedo Mazo over.
Naruto and Bee who knocked the Gedo Mazo over.
It is always depicted as something that happened instantly.
There is always a realization "!" when BT takes effect.
Never happens with ST.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> What ? Minato knows about Nagato's weakness in this thread , he can elaborate a strategy without making experiences like Kakashi .



If it is full knowledge, then he isn't catching Nagato off guard with Hirashin, like ever.



> Nagato is stronger than Tendo but Minato is by far stronger than Pain Arc Kakashi , he totaly outclass him in every field so .... Plus FTG+KB+Minato's brain>>>>any 3TS Kakashi's combo


I wasn't talking about strength, I was talking about resourcefulness.

Kakashi is alot more versatile than Minato, and he is a better strategist. 
Nagato isn't limited to Deva realms powers.



> No ,Minato's moves are too fast and impredictable , imagine if Minato throws out six kunais at close range , and he can teleport to every Kunai he lauched instantly , what Nagato could do about that , not even talking about base Minato's high speed moves .... he will be at least marked , and marked=killed with a Kunai in the head before even reacting to it .


Nagato can blast those kunais with Asura laser or rockets or ST.
Minato is pretty predictable, he needs to teleport to a mark, if you can preempt it, you can counter hit him as soon as he pops out.




> Euuh , no Minato's reflexes>>>Nagato


No. 



> , plus Nagato can't even notice the marking because he is always well covered ,
> Beeng marked = instant kill


,
With all of Nagato's abilities, I don't see Minato laying a hand on Nagato and marking him.



> it was Juubito's case against ennemies much slower than him , now we are talking about Minato who is much faster and smarter than Nagato ....


Juubito was an arrogant prick.
However, the moment he took a precaution(spawned that shit on his back) Tobirama never opted to teleport to him again.



thechickensage said:


> Its a big mistake in logic to assume that because push and pull reminds you of gravity, it must therefore propagate at the speed of light.
> 
> Neither the push nor the pull travels that fast.



Naruto and Bee who knocked the Gedo Mazo over.


----------



## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it is full knowledge, then he isn't catching Nagato off guard with Hirashin, like ever.


No , I have already said that Minato is by far smarter than Nagato and has much ressources to mariking him .




> I wasn't talking about strength, I was talking about resourcefulness.
> Kakashi is alot more versatile than Minato, and he is a better strategist.


Minato's FTG is itself ultra versatil , it allow him to make an infinite number of possible and effective attacks , it's on a hole another level than Kakashi , plus he is himself ultra fast so...
Plus Minato was a better strategist than Kakashi in direct confrontation , so...




> Nagato isn't limited to Deva realms powers.


The others are useless against Minato that's all .



> Nagato can blast those kunais with Asura laser or rockets or ST.
> Minato is pretty predictable, he needs to teleport to a mark, if you can preempt it, you can counter hit him as soon as he pops out.


Minato has another Kunais plus he can also teleport to the blasted Kunais , plus Minato has also shared vision like with his Kunais since he can see through them (cf : Kakashi Gaiden) .




> No.


Nagato>Minato in .... reflexes lol ^^ .

,


> With all of Nagato's abilities, I don't see Minato laying a hand on Nagato and marking him.


Nagato has only one effective ability against Minato , it's ST+BT , the others are nothing compared to FTG combos , and he will lose ST for 5 seconds againt... Minato , so...



> Juubito was an arrogant prick.
> However, the moment he took a precaution(spawned that shit on his back) Tobirama never opted to teleport to him again.


*Juubito was striked 3 times by FTG because he was ... marked* , Juubito himself>>>>>>>Nagato in reflexes , even KCM Minato can't much him .


----------



## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm saying that as long as he can react, he can execute the technique.



ck

Minato can "execute the technique as long as he can react"...with what? Do you know the definition of react?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If they have the power/agility to accelerate to that speed, they have the power/agility to stop themselves.



I guess I'll have to bring up some of the the other 273,644 examples.

Why weren't the five meters of land between Minato and A obliterated by the latter's instant, hypersonic acceleration? How can Hidan talk as a severed head? How can Sasori see? How can Obito survive with his body sometimes existing in two separate dimensions? Why didn't the gargantuan Jūbi Bijūdama cause a nuclear/volcanic winter? How did Tsunade move around with her spine destroyed? Need I go on?

Ninjutsu evidently and unarguably has the potential to break the laws of physics. They're hardly laws in the Narutoverse. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But Shinra tensei wasn't illustrated that way, ever IIRC.



It was once kinda. [1]

I think they're the same technique with one pushing and one pulling. Shinra Tensei is normally used at the last second of some dramatic "is he gonna make it!?" moment, so Kishimoto couldn't really illustrate it like that.

That said, we _usually_ get a panel that could be interpreted as Shinra Tensei's activation before it actually pushes anything, often accompanied by Pain shouting its name. 

In the end, Naruto preempted Shinra Tensei with the tail plant to stop himself from flying away, which is enough evidence that there is opportunity to do something before you go flying away.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ck
> 
> Minato can "execute the technique as long as he can react"...with what? Do you know the definition of react?


Whats so complex about it ?

If I throw a baseball to your face, and if you can react fast enough, you can move to the side and dodge it.
Moving to the side = using Hirashin. 

It is meaningless to talk about the brain/body coordination like a seperate thing.
The act of reacting covers that.



> I guess I'll have to bring up some of the the other 273,644 examples.
> 
> Why weren't the five meters of land between Minato and A obliterated by the latter's instant, hypersonic acceleration? How can Hidan talk as a severed head? How can Sasori see? How can Obito survive with his body sometimes existing in two separate dimensions? Why didn't the gargantuan Jūbi Bijūdama cause a nuclear/volcanic winter? How did Tsunade move around with her spine destroyed? Need I go on?
> 
> Ninjutsu evidently and unarguably has the potential to break the laws of physics. They're hardly laws in the Narutoverse.


Again not the same thing. 
There is gravity in Narutoverse and it works under the same princibles as our universe.
People have mass, and speed. There is also the concept of space and time.

There is a thing called momentum, even A emphasised this against Madara "I have to up that speed and crush his guard."

You can't erase momentum. You have to transfer that energy to something to be able to get rid of it.



> It was once kinda. [1]


That was to show that Naruto was resisting it. ST hit naruto before that panel, as you can see the clones are being thrown around : 1
Nice try though 



> I think they're the same technique with one pushing and one pulling. Shinra Tensei is normally used at the last second of some dramatic "is he gonna make it!?" moment, so Kishimoto couldn't really illustrate it like that.


Thats one way to interpret it.
The other is, they work under the same general princible but executed differently.
Because BT is a more delicate move. If Nagato BT'd someone @full speed, they would crash him @ full speed. So I guess he wants to have some sort of control as he is pulling his target, thats why the technique seems to start slow.
You can't observe the same effect in CT, it is illustrated the same way as ST. 
That should clear any misunderstanding regarding the mechanics of Deva's powers.



> That said, we _usually_ get a panel that could be interpreted as Shinra Tensei's activation before it actually pushes anything, often accompanied by Pain shouting its name


. 
We never get a panel of contact though, like with BT. We see Deva use the technique in one panel, and his opponent flying away in the other.



> In the end, Naruto preempted Shinra Tensei with the tail plant to stop himself from flying away, which is enough evidence that there is opportunity to do something before you go flying away.


The difference is, Naruto did something to resist the push. He planed this tails a split second after he felt the push thus he remained still.
As long as Minato gets hit, he is getting disoriented and thrown around.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , I have already said that Minato is by far smarter than Nagato and has much ressources to mariking him .


Not really no.
Both of them aren't among the smartest bunch in my book. I don't see a clear edge for neither of them.



> Minato's FTG is itself ultra versatil , it allow him to make an infinite number of possible and effective attacks , it's on a hole another level than Kakashi , plus he is himself ultra fast so...
> Plus Minato was a better strategist than Kakashi in direct confrontation , so...


Hirashin is hard to deal with not because it is versatile. It is extremely strong, but so is Kamui or Deva's powers and all of them are one trick ponies.




> The others are useless against Minato that's all .


Depends on the circumstances. Offensively they aren't very useful I agree, but as defensive measures, they surely are, given Minato's offense is very limited and weak.




> Minato has another Kunais plus he can also teleport to the blasted Kunais , plus Minato has also shared vision like with his Kunais since he can see through them (cf : Kakashi Gaiden) .


I don't think Minato can see through his kunais, but even if he can, it doesn't benefit him as much as it does Nagato. Nagato isn't a mobile fighter, but Minato is. Keeping track of Minato is essential, that is how you beat him.




> Nagato>Minato in .... reflexes lol ^^ .


I agree but not ">>>>" like you were suggesting earlier.
,



> Nagato has only one effective ability against Minato , it's ST+BT , the others are nothing compared to FTG combos , and he will lose ST for 5 seconds againt... Minato , so..


.
Absorbtion barrier renders rasengan useless, which is Minato's strongst offensive move.
Asura's limbs and weapons can block kunais and they are extremely dangerous to face in CQC for Minato.



> *Juubito was striked 3 times by FTG because he was ... marked* , Juubito himself>>>>>>>Nagato in reflexes , even KCM Minato can't much him .


Like I said, Juubito is an arrogant prick. He wasn't even taking his opponents seriously.
But the moment he spwned those spikes on his back, Tobirama said "If we TP, we will be annihilated."
In other words, the moment Juubito started taking precautions against getting blindsided, teleported behind his back stopped being a valid move. And he doesn't have shared vision like Nagato does. It is harder to catch Nagato off guard.


----------



## hbcaptain (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:
			
		

> Not really no.
> Both of them aren't among the smartest bunch in my book. I don't see a clear edge for neither of them.


Euh , no that's just your impression , because manga feats clearly showed that Minato is smarter than the likes of Kakashi in two direct confrontation : Kamui mechanism and GudoDamas mechanism , so ....
Until you came up with an argument to counter that feat : Minato is smarter than Kakashi .




> Hirashin is hard to deal with not because it is versatile. It is extremely strong, but so is Kamui or Deva's powers and all of them are one trick ponies.


No Hiraishin and it's variants can counter all types of attacks , if we add the other seals like Hakke Fuin , summons and KB then Minato is extremely powerful and versatil , Kakashi may have 1000 Jutsus but 99% are not good for anything , even Zabuza can deal with it , comparing 3TS Kakashi to Minato  ... You forgot that Minato is a genius that come up with orginal Jutsus one after another .



> Depends on the circumstances. Offensively they aren't very useful I agree, but as defensive measures, they surely are, given Minato's offense is very limited and weak.


No , shurado is just shit against someone like Minato who has a lot faster moves as for Gakido he is nothing against headshot Kunai , for the other Jutsus Nagato catch Minato with his hands , good luck for him , against all FTG combos+ultra fast Minato's moves , he is completely hopeless against the fourth without gravity Jutsus .



> I don't think Minato can see through his kunais, but even if he can, it doesn't benefit him as much as it does Nagato. Nagato isn't a mobile fighter, but Minato is. Keeping track of Minato is essential, that is how you beat him.


LOL  he said :

plus , he can teleport from battlefield to another one because he knows about Kunais positions .




> I agree but not ">>>>" like you were suggesting earlier.


No , Nagato's raw moves are jutsu in avarege Kage level while Minato's raw moves are faster than V2 Raikage .

.


> Absorbtion barrier renders rasengan useless, which is Minato's strongst offensive move.
> Asura's limbs and weapons can block kunais and they are extremely dangerous to face in CQC for Minato.


Ashura hands aren't bloking anything , Minato's CQC FTG style is not something that just more hands can deal with it , even a super powerful hax Jutsu like Kamui can barely deal with it , so Asura limbs  .




> Like I said, Juubito is an arrogant prick. He wasn't even taking his opponents seriously.
> But the moment he spwned those spikes on his back, Tobirama said "If we TP, we will be annihilated."


Yes , That's because Tobirama's moves are much slower than Juubito's , plus he didn't notice anything about SM Naruto's rasengan until he got blitzed , now we are talking Nagato who is much slower than Minato , he don't stand any chance :

*Spoiler*: _Juubitodidn't notice anything before being blitzed_ 








Same here , he didn't notice Tobirama's clone until he touched his shoulder :

*Spoiler*: __ 










> In other words, the moment Juubito started taking precautions against getting blindsided, teleported behind his back stopped being a valid move. And he doesn't have shared vision like Nagato does. It is harder to catch Nagato off guard.


No , Tobirama himself stated that he predicted the last FTG ,and even with that he barely managed to escape beeing blitzed using Juubi's hands , so Nagato against ....Minato ....  .

Even Obito couldn't activate Kamui before getting striked :


And databook stated that beeing marked by FTG formula is like sentence of death .


----------



## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If I throw a baseball to your face, and if you can react fast enough, you can move to the side and dodge it.



No.

If there's a baseball coming at me, my reaction could be the thought "pretty colors," and I would get pegged. Furthermore, my reaction could have been the thought (more like a reflex) "dodge the ball" and I may still get pegged because I'm too slow.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can't erase momentum



You can't talk without lungs either. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> We see Deva use the technique in one panel, and his opponent flying away in the other.



Indeed, which could point towards there being time before you go anywhere.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He planed this tails a split second after he felt the push thus he remained still.



I saw no indication of Naruto "feeling the push" in those panels.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> If there's a baseball coming at me, my reaction could be the thought "pretty colors," and I would get pegged. Furthermore, my reaction could have been the thought (more like a reflex) "dodge the ball" and I may still get pegged because I'm too slow.


Well maybe there is a problem with you pal 
If I see a baseball coming at me, my reaction is "I have to get out the way or I have to block this" and my body starts moving before even I finish the thought.
We have a thing called muscle reflex, sometimes you don't have to think, as long as you register a danger, your body will act accordingly.
I am pretty sure Minato teleports by using Hirashin pretty much instinctively in the face of danger.



> You can't talk without lungs either.



With my physiology yes, I can't.

That is besides the point.

You don't question anything when Kakuzu turns into a tentacle monster but if all of a sudden he wasn't effected by gravity, you would go " WTF ? "
Because you'd expect Kishimoto to explain why a character defies the laws of physics.

Also this : 1
Minato fell flat on the ground when he Hirashin'd away during mid Kamui. That means he was actually being displaced when he was being sucked in, so the movement carried over to Hirashin. He also seemed disoriented. 
This proves my point.

So again, if he gets hit by ST, teleporting will not help. He will still be thrown around when he appears at a hirashin mark.
You can only argue that he will not get ragdolled as hard because he won't eat the full brunt of the technique, but then, that is pretty optimistic given he will be disoriented by a sudden push.



> Indeed, which could point towards there being time before you go anywhere.


I guess the same can be said about Hirashin as well, because Hirashin is also illustrated the same way. It is a manga, so there has to be frame 1 and frame 2. And obviosly the mangaka can't draw a frame for every single action, then it would be like reading an animated movie.



> I saw no indication of Naruto "feeling the push" in those panels.


Because only his tails are shown in the next panel.

I can perfectly illustrate this in my head. Naruto gets pushed by ST a little, but he plants his tails to the ground a split second later, without being displaced too much. 
Its like ST touches him and he plants his tails to the ground. Maybe he was pushed back 20 - 30 centimeters, it is impossible to know though.

Although your interpretation doesn't make any sense to me, that there is like a 1 sec delay of stillness when ST makes contact with something. That was never illustrated or pointed out.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We have a thing called muscle reflex



Notice the parenthetical. 

You are generally correct in that the body begins to move instinctively in response to a threat. However, whatever is causing that threat _must first be perceived as such._ 

That "shit" panel [1] was Edo Minato processing the threat. In all likelihood, his mind instinctively began activating the _instantaneous_ Hiraishin as soon as he saw Obito's arm coming towards him, but since he was still hit, we can conclude that the process of seal-less ninjutsu activation needs to be accounted for even if the shinobi perceives the threat.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't question anything when Kakuzu turns into a tentacle monster but if all of a sudden he wasn't effected by gravity, you would go " WTF ?



I went "WTF?" when Hidan spoke as a head, and it went without explanation. Kishimoto is not illustrating his battle scenes with science in mind. 

Why don't you think of it illustrated like this:


Minato lunges at Nagato.
Nagato pushes him away with Shinra Tensei.
While flying backwards, Minato throws a tag by Nagato.
Still moving backwards, Minato uses Hiraishin to jump to that tag.

At that point, Minato would have an opening to take advantage of. He's not going to appear behind Nagato and resume flying backwards because "momentum cannot be erased according to scientific law." Kishimoto gives not one single shit about scientific law. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato fell flat on the ground when he Hirashin'd away during mid Kamui. That means he was actually being displaced when he was being sucked in, so the movement carried over to Hirashin. He also seemed disoriented.



Kamui does move its target anywhere except for between dimensions, and Minato wasn't moving at that point. He just didn't land on his feet, probably from shock.

-------

As for the rest, I don't really care about it anymore. I'll admit that your points are valid and there's reason to doubt my original interpretation that Shinra Tensei could be evaded.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm interested by how easy you made it seem when Minato can simply throw a Kunai while accelerating at relatively high speeds. Even if he does do that and warp behind Nagato, he's simply going to be sent crashing straight to the ground like he was against Obito.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm interested by how easy you made it seem when Minato can simply throw a Kunai while accelerating at relatively high speeds.



Throwing a weapon is one of the more basic ninja tasks. Doing it while flying through the air isn't difficult. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Even if he does do that and warp behind Nagato, he's simply going to be sent crashing straight to the ground like he was against Obito.



Or he would appear behind him, much like he appeared above Obito straight after sprinting towards him.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Throwing a weapon is one of the more basic ninja tasks. Doing it while flying through the air isn't difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> Or he would appear behind him, much like he appeared above Obito straight after sprinting towards him.



 Because he can control his own speed prior to the warp whereas he doesn't have complete control over his speed if being forced to accelerate quickly due to Shinra Tensei or due to Kamui like I stated earlier.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

He can indeed "control his own speed prior to the warp." It was his sprint speed.

Btw, Kamui doesn't accelerate.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He can indeed "control his own speed prior to the warp." It was his sprint speed.
> 
> Btw, Kamui doesn't accelerate.



 Kamui caused Minato accelerate at a very high speed and Minato has to exert much more effort to control that kind of acceleration as opposed to acceleration caused by their own speed.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Kamui doesn't accelerate. 

Shinra Tensei does. It knocks ninja off their feet with a repulsion effect.

It's a good thing that Minato can use Hiraishin while in the air.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kamui doesn't accelerate.
> 
> Shinra Tensei does. It knocks ninja off their feet with a repulsion effect.
> 
> It's a good thing that Minato can use Hiraishin while in the air.



 Kamui also knocks ninjas off their feet and causes them to accelerate at high speeds hence why Obito can warp to places almost instantaneously (at speeds KCM Naruto struggles detecting). I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about it. The only difference is the direction of both forces. They both still causes their opponents to accelerate whether you like it or not. 

 If you really want to argue against this, you should explain how Minato crashed to the ground using Hiraishin after Obito almost managed to warp Minato.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Kamui involves jumping through space. There is no acceleration. 

The explanation for Minato landing on the ground is that he didn't land on his feet, likely because of shock.

As a side note, I encourage you to understand your own arguments. If the momentum from Minato being accelerated to massively hypersonic speeds were transferred with him after Hiraishin, his collision with the ground would do far more than just kick up dust.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kamui involves jumping through space. There is no acceleration.
> 
> The explanation for Minato landing on the ground is that he didn't land on his feet, likely because of shock.



  1

 That is the most logical explanation for why he was sent flying to the ground. Please tell me where Minato displayed any expressions of shock at all. He was surprised by his S/T ninjutsu capabilities, as shown here:

 1

 1

 But not here, so shock isn't an answer to justify your position. 



> As a side note, I encourage you to understand your own arguments. If the momentum from Minato being accelerated to massively hypersonic speeds were transferred with him after Hiraishin, his collision with the ground would do far more than just kick up dust.



  He was sent flying sideways in the direction of Obito's Kamui absorption.

 But please, even if his collision with the ground didn't make sense, it also doesn't make sense for BM Naruto's Shunshin to repel Bijuudamas moving at high velocities yet Kakashi and Gai who had far less mass and were motionless weren't blown away in the first place.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That is the most logical explanation for why he was sent flying to the ground.



The most logical explanation is shock.



NarutoX28 said:


> Please tell me where Minato displayed any expressions of shock at all.



His face was distorted, but I sincerely hope you wouldn't need to see his face to determine that randomly being sucked into an eyeball shocked him.



NarutoX28 said:


> He was sent flying sideways in the direction of Obito's Kamui absorption.



Kamui doesn't send people flying.



NarutoX28 said:


> But please, even if his collision with the ground didn't make sense, it also doesn't make sense for BM Naruto's Shunshin to repel Bijuudamas moving at high velocities yet Kakashi and Gai who had far less mass and were motionless weren't blown away in the first place.



Okay. That is nice, but it doesn't actually help support your interpretation of those panels. 

They display Minato hitting the ground as if he had fallen over, wondering what had just happened.

They do not display Minato being propelled towards the ground at relativistic speeds.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 15, 2015)

Minato warped sideways so he landed sideways.  He's not a cat.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The most logical explanation is shock.



 I see no reason why.





> His face was distorted, but I sincerely hope you wouldn't need to see his face to determine that randomly being sucked into an eyeball shocked him.



 I'm going by exclamation marks. Lack of exclamation marks implies he anticipated it.





> Kamui doesn't send people flying.



 It doesn't, but it did as Minato warped out of it while still being in motion.





> Okay. That is nice, but it doesn't actually help support your interpretation of those panels.
> 
> They display Minato hitting the ground as if he had fallen over, wondering what had just happened.
> 
> They do not display Minato being propelled towards the ground at relativistic speeds.



 He didn't wonder what happened. He was shocked how he managed to phase through him and then his statement afterwards implies that he analyzed his Kamui. 

 @PoW

 He warped sideways due to Kamui's pull.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I see no reason why.



That is not my problem.



NarutoX28 said:


> I'm going by exclamation marks. Lack of exclamation marks implies he anticipated it.



You are trying to argue that Minato anticipated a jutsu he didn't know existed. 



NarutoX28 said:


> It doesn't, but it did as Minato warped out of it while still being in motion.



He warped out of it and fell to the ground.



NarutoX28 said:


> He didn't wonder what happened.



"What was that move?" is typically said by someone who didn't fully understand what had just happened to him.


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## savior2005 (Oct 15, 2015)

wait does minato have SM? If so, he can win


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Notice the parenthetical.
> 
> You are generally correct in that the body begins to move instinctively in response to a threat. However, whatever is causing that threat _must first be perceived as such._
> 
> That "shit" panel [1] was Edo Minato processing the threat. In all likelihood, his mind instinctively began activating the _instantaneous_ Hiraishin as soon as he saw Obito's arm coming towards him, but since he was still hit, we can conclude that the process of seal-less ninjutsu activation needs to be accounted for even if the shinobi perceives the threat.



You can say that Minato didn't percieve the threat until it was too late and he just couldn't get out of the way in time because his synapses didn't fire fast enough.
Isn't that what we general refer to as "reacting" in BD ? 



> I went "WTF?" when Hidan spoke as a head, and it went without explanation. Kishimoto is not illustrating his battle scenes with science in mind.



Hidan's immortality was explained though wasn't it ? 

We have seen Orochimaru get ripped in half and then sew himself back together and move on like nothing happened. We know these magical things happen, but we also know that  gravity, speed, accelaration, momentum, space/time are concepts that Naruto characters have to abide.

The only reason why Naruto can run up to a person and punch them in the face, and the are sent flying by the impact is because Kishimoto is taking laws of physics into consideration. Even in Narutoverse Momentum is a universal law.



> Why don't you think of it illustrated like this:
> 
> 
> Minato lunges at Nagato.
> ...


Thats physicaly not possible, so I don't think Kishimoto would draw anything like it. 



> Kamui does move its target anywhere except for between dimensions, and Minato wasn't moving at that point. He just didn't land on his feet, probably from shock.
> 
> -------



Obito's Kamui sucks you into a dimension, its like a vacuum, there is some kind of movement involved.  We've seen him and Kakashi pretty much eject through the hole 1
1
Here you can see a wind like effect as they come out.

Also Minato was standing when Obito tried to warp him, and when he used Hirashin, he appeared already falling down. Shock would only make sense if he fell down after he teleported. 



> As for the rest, I don't really care about it anymore. I'll admit that your points are valid and there's reason to doubt my original interpretation that Shinra Tensei could be evaded.



But it can't be.Regardless of which scientific approach you take.
I maybe wrong all about Kishimoto's scientific take, maybe he goes with newtonian physics, but then, the result doesn't change. Newton thinks gravity acted instantly, but then he had no idea about gravitational waves and such.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

savior2005 said:
			
		

> wait does minato have SM? If so, he can win


If he wants to use SM , he can activate it if he can .


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## Rocky (Oct 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can say that Minato didn't percieve the threat until it was too late and he just couldn't get out of the way in time because his synapses didn't fire fast enough.



Say whatever you want as long as you realized that the activation of Hiraishin (or Shinra Tensei) isn't simultaneous with the the "I'm in trouble" thought. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hidan's immortality was explained though wasn't it ?



Yes.

How he spoke without lungs was not explained. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats physicaly not possible, so I don't think Kishimoto would draw anything like it.



Nor is speaking without lungs, or instantly accelerating to ridiculous speeds without obliterating the surrounding environment. 

He is not afraid to draw things that aren't physically possible.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito's Kamui sucks you into a dimension, its like a vacuum, there is some kind of movement involved.



Okay, there is some sort of sucking force. 

So he was sideways when he warped, so he landed sideways.

Does that make you happy?


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## ARGUS (Oct 26, 2015)

Kamui has practically non existant impact when being teleported, because its a teleportation jutsu. 
yet when minato escaped from it, he landed hard on the ground, implying that FTG cant just help minato erase the entire fkn impact altogether

minato has no means of anticipating ST. Just like KCM naruto didnt. SM naruto didnt, and edo itachi didnt. 
and he cant react to something thats instantly activated on users thought. and has no physical shape or form, 

having FTG is useless when minato cant evade ST. due to the above reasons. and he cant evade its momentum, 
given how just the impact of kamui landed him down 

*a powerful ST that instantly pushes him rock hard on the ground, turns him into slimy pudding. *

the ST above is a regular one. and minato is no special when it comes to durability. 
any stronger one and he is one shotted


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## hbcaptain (Oct 26, 2015)

Kakashi was enough resiliant to takbe a weak ST same for Bee in base mode , neighter Tendo or Nagato can't generate a powerful shock wave if they are pressured . Nagato can see throught Minato moves but just slighly , he can't kill him with just weak ST version .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Kamui has practically non existant impact when being teleported, because its a teleportation jutsu.
> yet when minato escaped from it, he landed hard on the ground, implying that FTG cant just help minato erase the entire fkn impact altogether
> 
> minato has no means of anticipating ST. Just like KCM naruto didnt. SM naruto didnt, and edo itachi didnt.
> ...



I most of the time disagree with this guy but I have to quote this post. I've been debating about the same points for the last few pages to no avail though. So good luck.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Oct 26, 2015)

If Nagato has knowledge of Minatos jutsu then consider him the winner. I think it would be a lot more interesting if they knew nothing about each other. Either way Nagato would probably win, not by a landslide though.


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## LostSelf (Oct 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I most of the time disagree with this guy but I have to quote this post. I've been debating about the same points for the last few pages to no avail though. So good luck.



You're not alone on this.


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## ARGUS (Oct 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I most of the time disagree with this guy but I have to quote this post. I've been debating about the same points for the last few pages to no avail though. So good luck.





LostSelf said:


> You're not alone on this.



i have been debating this for years now 
Doubt there's anything that minato fans can bring which puts his durability at a level where he just stands back up after getting pasted

And I'm sure that portrayal puts Nagato comfortably above base minato


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 27, 2015)

Minato falls but only because he's not a Jinchuriki, Nagato is too much and him + shared vision + rin'negan > Minato. Minato's best chance for victory was with the other half of the Kyuubi, give him that he has it in the bag, regardless of whatever version of Nagato is present, mobile or immobile.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Minato falls but only because he's not a Jinchuriki, Nagato is too much and him + shared vision + rin'negan > Minato. Minato's best chance for victory was with the other half of the Kyuubi, give him that he has it in the bag, regardless of whatever version of Nagato is present, mobile or immobile.


this


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