# Who is the strongest person Tsunade can beat?



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

I've made my mind up, but I wanna know what others think.
Restrictions: Tsunade downplay (even if you don't believe it, she is an equal to Orochimaru and Jiraiya)


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

Orochimaru probably...


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2016)

She can beat Danzō fight Sasuke IC.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Orochimaru probably...



Yeah why didnt i think of that??
/thread

- Do you think I would be wanking if I said  Byakugo War Arc Tsunade with Katsuyu Available ... had a shot at Six Paths of Pain?
- She tanks Deva
- Tanks/smashes Asura
- Katsuyu deals with Animal Path summons
- Taijutsu hard counters Human Path via Ranshinsho
- Taijutsu hard counters Naraka Path via Chakra Scalpel to the neck/lungs/heart
- Taijutsu hard counters Preta Path via a good punch

Once all the other paths are gone she just has to use chakra to stop ST from throwing her about like she did in the manga. Then when the 5 second gap opens - Chakra Scalpel, Ranshinsho, Punch, Tsutenkyaku, take your pick. And then there is Katsuyu as well.



FlamingRain said:


> She can beat Danzō fight Sasuke IC.



Yeah probably.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2016)

Well one issue would be that the Pain bodies don't line up and fight one-on-one.

Intentionally anyway.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2016)

I think if Sakura or Tsunade played their cards right they could give those bodies some issues tbh. 

Inner Sakura would demolish them paths and Nagato too.


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I think if Sakura or Tsunade played their cards right they could give those bodies a hard time.



Define "hard time." She does significantly worse than Jiraiya did, and he barely gave Pain a hard time by my definition.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Comfortably? Sasori. I think that Byakugou would negate the effects of poison.

If not Sasori, probably Gengetsu.


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## Kai (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Orochimaru probably...


I'll go with this.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Define "hard time."



I think it'd be at least mid-difficulty, so I edited it to _"some real issues"_, but I _could_ see it bordering on high depending on how long splitting Katsuyu could occupy a few of the realms to keep them from all ganging up on Sakura or Tsunade at once, which is what I meant by _"hard time"_. That's _if_ she had full knowledge and Pain wasn't overly familiar with her (likely in Sakura's case I think), because they might bust in an order inconvenient for Nagato.

Jiraiya gave Pain a hard time and probably would have actually _won_ were he to have had knowledge sooner, and Nagato was more familiar with Jiraiya's fighting style in general.


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya gave Pain a hard time and probably would have actually _won_ were he to have had knowledge sooner, and Nagato was more familiar with Jiraiya's fighting style in general.



Nagato wasn't familiar with Sage Mode or Gamarinshō either. Also, given how close a call it was when Jiraiya went for Sage Mode against the animal path alone, I'd guess that he'd have no chance whatsoever against Pain if all six were standing there at the onset of the fight instead of just one, regardless of Nagato's knowledge.


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## Ersa (Feb 5, 2016)

Sakura by the time of the War Arc is basically on par with her master. By the time of The Last she eats Tsunade for breakfast.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Nagato wasn't familiar with Sage Mode or Gamarinshō either. Also, given how close a call it was when Jiraiya went for Sage Mode against the animal path alone, I'd guess that he'd have no chance whatsoever against Pain if all six were standing there at the onset of the fight instead of just one, regardless of Nagato's knowledge.




Which is funny, because when Pa tried to use the genjutsu again, Pain stopped him in his tracks.


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## LostSelf (Feb 5, 2016)

I would say Orochimaru, but he has to be restricted (Edo Tensei). But that'd depend if we consider it part of his powers (I do).

And, no. I don't see her having a shot against Pain. Jiraiya had like the best odds, and even then, Fukusaku lacked knowledge on some key paths (Like Deva). Maybe he didn't see Shinra Tensei. But either way, even if she's Jiraiya's equal, they are different shinobis with different movesets.

I stick with Oro without Edo Tensei.


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## Bonly (Feb 5, 2016)

I'd say the strongest she has a decent shot at would be Tobi


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2016)

How does she beat him? 



Rocky said:


> Nagato wasn't familiar with Sage Mode or Gamarinshō either.



I said Nagato was familiar with Jiraiya's fighting _style_, as was pointed out while Jiraiya was in Sage Mode (which is simply a direct power boost).

I know Nagato wasn't familiar with Gamarinshō.



> Also, given how close a call it was when Jiraiya went for Sage Mode against the animal path alone, I'd guess that he'd have no chance whatsoever against Pain if all six were standing there at the onset of the fight instead of just one, regardless of Nagato's knowledge.



He opted for the method he did because he saw the guy already standing on a summon, and when his summon wasn't providing a smooth ride for him he sent it home. I'm inclined to think Jiraiya could simply tell that he'd be in Sage Mode by the time the ram crossed the room and smashed him when he did that.

If there were other paths Jiraiya could try a different method in order to buy time for Sage Mode, like escaping into the pipes, or even sending a Kage Bunshin out to draw Nagato's attention. Even if the clone didn't last long on its own it could give Jiraiya the opportunity to transform between Nagato going after it, discovering that it isn't the real Jiraiya, and then picking up the search again.

(I've suggested a somewhat similar method for Jiraiya reaching Sage Mode against Tsunade before.)

But...it's in Sage Mode that Jiraiya would do better than Tsunade and Sakura isn't it?


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## 1yesman9 (Feb 5, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> That was a misogynistic post but anyway.



Amazing.


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## ARGUS (Feb 6, 2016)

Kakuzu is the strongest she can beat


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## Empathy (Feb 6, 2016)

I'd go with Gai.


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## Richard Lionheart (Feb 6, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Yeah why didnt i think of that??
> /thread
> 
> - Do you think I would be wanking if I said  Byakugo War Arc Tsunade with Katsuyu Available ... had a shot at Six Paths of Pain?
> ...



That would be on a whole new wanking level. And that says someone, who feels sympathy towards Tsunade. She has a shot at beating Deva in a 1vs1 one battle with no knowledge and has more than a shot at destroying the other bodies in a 5vs1 battle.

If she is going to fight them at the same time she is just...overwhelmed. As soon as Deva knows about her strength and regeneration he will just smack her around till she runs out of chakra or at worst he will use CT. There is no way for her to counter that alone.


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## Kyu (Feb 6, 2016)

Jiraiya.**


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

The woman stands zero chance of beating orochimaru 
What she gonna do 
Punch him to death ?

How lol


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 6, 2016)

Orochimaru or Tobirama.

She doesn't beat Pein. With intel, she does very well, but she doesn't beat him.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The woman stands zero chance of beating orochimaru
> What she gonna do
> Punch him to death ?
> 
> How lol



Perhaps in the same way that she canonically defeated him? lol.

Her reserves are larger than his. She punches him repeatedly until he can't regenerate anymore, or until his body starts to reject him, and then she KOs.​​


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Orochimaru or Tobirama.​​





I can't see her taking on Tobirama. 


She will never be able to hit him, and he can decapitate her as many times as necessary to make Byakugō run out. Especially if she's tagged. Gojō Kibaku Fuda would likely do major damage as well.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> I can't see her taking on Tobirama.
> 
> 
> She will never be able to hit him, and he can decapitate her as many times as necessary to make Byakugō run out. Especially if she's tagged. Gojō Kibaku Fuda would likely do major damage as well.



He lacks the physical strength to decapitate her, and Gojo Kibaku Fuda wouldn't work because he'd get caught in his own blast. Its also possible that she'll just destroy the tag before it detonates. I see her outlasting him, presuming she has enough chakra stored up. If not, then Byakugou runs out and she dies.​​


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## shade0180 (Feb 6, 2016)

You should rather ask who is the weakest who can defeat Tsunade with her complete arsenal which include 5% Katsuyu. 

Tsunade lacks the strength to clear the higher portion of the top tier but can tie with them with the help of Katsuyu. Basically same case with Sakura.. A lot of the top tier lack the ability to clear Katsuyu's body.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Perhaps in the same way that she canonically defeated him? lol.
> 
> Her reserves are larger than his. She punches him repeatedly until he can't regenerate anymore, or until his body starts to reject him, and then she KOs.​​



Lol she never did defeat him

She punched the weakest version of oro possible and he got up 

She has larger reserves but dies to loosing a head 

Oro has the benefit of being able to tank her punches

Takes 3 years for the body to reject him , she can't beat on him for 3 years 

he is faster , less versatile and has the better skill set

Since when was strength required to decapitate tsunade ? Bet that's your argument against oro , she looses her head against him . 

no where it is implied that would require a special level of strength


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## Yoko (Feb 6, 2016)

It's highly dependent on the knowledge she has on an opponent and the knowledge her opponent has on her.  I rate Tsunade pretty low on the Kage totem pole due to below average speed and combat one-dimensionality, so in a neutral scenario, there aren't many Kage I can see her beating.

In a scenario where the opponent lacks knowledge on her striking power and regenerative abilities, a CQC oriented person would be in for trouble.  Even long range / defensive fighters could be in for a surprise as their defenses crumble and normal attacks are regenerated from.

 So for me, the answer is a resounding, predictable "it depends."


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

How does tsunade destroy the GFK tags if I may ask


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

But she's certainly not going to be able to stop multiple tags from detonating at once, and the mechanics of GKF causes the tags to summon more tags regardless.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Pain lifts up Katsuyu & launches it off of the battlefield. GG all Tsunade arguments.


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## Empathy (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Pain lifts up Katsuyu & launches it off of the battlefield. GG all Tsunade arguments.



Tsunade summons her back.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Tendō does it again. I think he does it around five times over the course of the battle.


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## Ghoztly (Feb 6, 2016)

She has a chance against Jiraiya but not Orochimaru due to his defense and ET. Without ET even I can't see her winning.

Pain destroys and I don't think anyone can come up with an argument that will convince anyone otherwise.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Pain lifts up Katsuyu & launches it off of the battlefield. GG all Tsunade arguments.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

I think I'll make a compendium of all my old good posts on every given match up, and program a bot to inject them into threads based on key words.

I can automate the process and someday give Atlantic Storm a run for his money on MotM victories.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> She can beat Danzō fight Sasuke IC.



Really? I can't see her winning against Sasuke unless the odds are extremely slanted in her favour. Heck, I see Hebi Sasuke beating her more times than not.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Gengetsu    .I disagree with Ms Sauce, Oro, and Kakuzu from what I saw. All have counters to her.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

I can see her defeating Kakuzu but yeah, Raiton: Gian & Jiongu are problems for her.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How does she beat him?



By punching him eventually, she can tank/avoid most of what he can dish out, he's needs to get up and close in order to land that final killing shot imo and once that happens he's likely to get tagged which is either gonna kill him or fatally wound him giving Tsunade the edge


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> By punching him eventually, she can tank/avoid most of what he can dish out, he's needs to get up and close in order to land that final killing shot imo and once that happens he's likely to get tagged which is either gonna kill him or fatally wound him giving Tsunade the edge



All he has to do is touch her and she's gone, though. Tsunade's not hitting Obito either imo, his reactions are great. Obito with a hole in his heart was still able to use Kamui, Tsunade's going to have trouble putting him down.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I can see her defeating Kakuzu but yeah, Raiton: Gian & Jiongu are problems for her.



Kakuzu was able to knock down a huge Iron Gate infused with a fuinjutsu with pure physical force, and has inherent defense to her strength (he'll still be hurt and could be killed, but obviously not like a regular ninja like kakashi or Itachi). Her only defense from 3 element mask is trying to swat everything away which she can't do to Fuuton, Gian, or KFC. Then Jiongu just makes killinger that much easier especially when it can be implemented from underground.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Kakuzu was able to knock down a huge Iron Gate infused with a fuinjutsu with pure physical force, and has inherent defense to her strength (he'll still be hurt and could be killed, but obviously not like a regular ninja like kakashi or Itachi). Her only defense from 3 element mask is trying to swat everything away which she can't do to Fuuton, Gian, or KFC. Then Jiongu just makes killinger that much easier especially when it can be implemented from underground.



That's true. She'll be blown away by the Futon but it shouldn't do any damage to her, I don't recall Hidan being damaged by it.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> By punching him eventually, she can tank/avoid most of what he can dish out, he's needs to get up and close in order to land that final killing shot imo and once that happens he's likely to get tagged which is either gonna kill him or fatally wound him giving Tsunade the edge



For some reason when you said Tobi I thought of the guy who fought Minato.



Itachі said:


> Really? I can't see her winning against Sasuke unless the odds are extremely slanted in her favour.



IC they would be, because Sasuke is liable to try blocking with ribcage Susano'o. 

Considering what Raikage did to it, what he did to the one Madara used and then what Tsunade did to that one, she'd put her fist through that ribcage and still snap Sasuke's head off.


Otherwise yeah, he could simply Kagutsuchi spam.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Didn't she need Yin Seal to bust Susanoo? That isn't an IC opening move. Plus from what I recall he abuses V2/V3 much more than V1. 

I could see her maybe beating MS sasuke from Kage summit. He is a nut , who could be liable to try and abuse ribcage, but even then if she doesn't hit him with her best, then he would start enton coating the shield.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> IC they would be, because Sasuke is liable to try blocking with ribcage Susano'o.
> 
> Considering what Raikage did to it, what he did to the one Madara used and then what Tsunade did to that one, she'd put her fist through that ribcage and still snap Sasuke's head off.
> 
> Otherwise yeah, he could simply Kagutsuchi spam.



I can't see her getting to that stage though. Sasuke could simply just coat his Susano'o with Enton if he has knowledge on her.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's true. She'll be blown away by the Futon but it shouldn't do any damage to her, I don't recall Hidan being damaged by it.



It's pretty much a pressure wave. Outside of tearin your skin to pieces, it's mostly gonna just fuck up your insides like getting hit by grenade without the heat, or shrapnel. It's the reason bomb squad guys can still die in their bombproof suits when they go to disarm small local bombs.

Plus it'd be more about just pasting her into the ground and immobilzing her/making her heal then killing her. That's what Gian/ Ji are for.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Didn't she need Yin Seal to bust Susanoo? That isn't an IC opening move.



I don't think Tsunade uses so much Chakra in each punch upon opening the Byakugō diamond that it'd eclipse her natural Chakra capacity (i.e.- what she could do in base), but considering Sasuke has taken out Akatsuki members and gone after Jinchūriki I think she'd open it.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I can't see her getting to that stage though. Sasuke could simply just coat his Susano'o with Enton if he has knowledge on her.



Yeah, he doesn't though. Even if he were able to see the Chakra focused into her hand it wouldn't tell him how powerful the strike would be, since neither Kakashi or Madara predicted that.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> For some reason when you said Tobi I thought of the guy who fought Minato.



Nah since we found out he is Obito I refer to him by his name, I'm just to lazy to type out Tobirama every time I mention him so I shorten it to Tobi lol


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't think Tsunade uses so much Chakra in each punch upon opening the Byakugō diamond that it'd eclipse her natural Chakra capacity (i.e.- what she could do in base), but considering Sasuke has taken out Akatsuki members and gone after Jinchūriki I think she'd open it.



We have seen both Byakugo users gain substantial strength and chakra boost after opening the Yin seal as that's the mechanism behind it's amping. It completely eclipses her base striking. Her best base feat is her axe Kick, and scaling from Sakura (pre War Arc punch).

I don't think Tsunade would open up with Yin seal just based on that. Opening Yin seal isn't something to be done lightly as she spends years storing it.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah, he doesn't though. Even if he were able to see the Chakra focused into her hand it wouldn't tell him how powerful the strike would be, since neither Kakashi or Madara predicted that.



Well, I think that Sasuke would try and engage Tsunade in CQC first and I can't see her doing too well since Sasuke was tangling with V1 Ei. If he uses Chidori she could counter his attack but even then he could use Chidori: Nagashi to delay her somewhat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

IC Summit Sasuke will lololol sword blitz with the darkness and might not even bother to flow raiton through it.  He did it enough times.  He also likes to eiso stab once and walk away, or chidori people in the chest.  All of these are things that get him killed if Tsunade stands there or sticks her fist out.  Ribcage blocking is also death, assuming she tries to punch him, and he whores his absolute defence, which he's very very fond of.  Taka's sanity drop prevents him from winning until we get to Ameterasu spamming portion of the madness, in which case he accidentally does the right thing out of an otherwise bad habit.  

Hebi actually has a pretty good and even fight he probably wins more often than not, despite lacking the right counter.


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## Itachі (Feb 6, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> IC Summit Sasuke will lololol sword blitz with the darkness and might not even bother to flow raiton through it.  He did it enough times.  He also likes to eiso stab once and walk away, or chidori people in the chest.  All of these are things that get him killed if Tsunade stands there or sticks her fist out.  Ribcage blocking is also death, assuming she tries to punch him, and he whores his absolute defence.  Taka's sanity drop prevents him from winning until we get to Ameterasu spamming portion of the madness, in which case he accidentally does the right thing out of habit.



Sasuke outmanouvered V1 Ei, I can't see him getting bested by Tsunade easily. I could however see her countering his Chidori and punching his lights out though. If he uses Eiso she's not getting him since he's going to be using it at a range.

She could break ribcage but is there anything to suggest that she could kill him while inside of it too?


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> IC Summit Sasuke will lololol sword blitz with the darkness





That's too funny for me to handle .

The fact that's true makes it even more funny.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> We have seen both Byakugo users gain substantial strength and chakra boost after opening the Yin seal as that's the mechanism behind it's amping. It completely eclipses her base striking. Her best base feat is her axe Kick, and scaling from Sakura (pre War Arc punch).
> 
> I don't think Tsunade would open up with Yin seal just based on that. Opening Yin seal isn't something to be done lightly as she spends years storing it.



Sakura didn't even use her seal to send juublings up splash mountain.  She just stopped dumping 90% of her default chakra into forming the seal, and there's no way Sakura has more default chakra than Tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

No logical way.

Like.  She could.  Because screw this manga.  It hates people who think.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> We have seen both Byakugo users gain substantial strength and chakra boost after opening the Yin seal as that's the mechanism behind it's amping.



Nobody is denying that there's _any_ effect, simply that it's _so_ dramatic it couldn't be replicated in base at all. We saw Sakura start putting more Chakra into her Ōkashō upon the mark forming. She did not use Infūin: Kai, then pull that off. The Chakra stored with Byakugō is usually set to power Sōzō Saisei for an extended period of time, it doesn't automatically enhance everything about the users even if they can refocus amounts of the Chakra to other Jutsu.

Tsunade's axe kick was done when she could hardly even be called a ninja and complained about the Chakra a single healing Jutsu would use up, so that quite frankly doesn't matter- she likely did not put much of any Chakra into that feat. 



> I don't think Tsunade would open up with Yin seal just based on that. Opening Yin seal isn't something to be done lightly as she spends years storing it.



There sure weren't years between the incident with defeating Pain and the incident with Madara.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, I think that Sasuke would try and engage Tsunade in CQC first and I can't see her doing too well since Sasuke was tangling with V1 Ei. If he uses Chidori she could counter his attack but even then he could use Chidori: Nagashi to delay her somewhat.



I'd put money on Tsunade smashing him in spite of Nagashi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Sasuke outmanouvered V1 Ei, I can't see him getting bested by Tsunade easily. I could however see her countering his Chidori and punching his lights out though. If he uses Eiso she's not getting him since he's going to be using it at a range.
> 
> She could break ribcage but is there anything to suggest that she could kill him while inside of it too?



He's going to walk away after eiso and get the Madara possum treatment.  Only instead of he breaking off his eiso blade and chopping him in half with it and ORAAAAAAA Senju war cries, she's just get up and dash punch him in the spine.  

Sasuke took some visible damage from Ei's Shinigami chop and raiga bombahead even through Susano.  Both of them left him visibly stunned and disoriented afterward too.  Spillover will probably kill him, assuming her fist doesn't go straight through it and hit him.  Which, you know, it might, considering she hit a V4 Madara Susano hard enough to spin it's head around backwards.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Sakura didn't even use her seal to send juublings up splash mountain.  She just stopped dumping 90% of her default chakra into forming the seal, and there's no way Sakura has more default chakra than Tsunade.



Really? I thought that was like a minor release hence the close up, and highlighting. Scans please.

Lmao I thought i was conversing with Rocky


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

The seal formed.  We didn't get infuin: kai tatoos that all the cool Sannin have.  

All of a sudden I argue smashy smashy and you think I'm Rocky.

(Apologies for not getting scans.  I am lazy and don't wanna.)


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

I thought you were Rocky too for a second there.

If it was so minor as to not even require Infūin: Kai, yet that happened, then Tsunade using an amount of Chakra so great that she couldn't replicate it using her natural volume would be even more weird.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

I'm going to pretend to be offended,


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Okay I concede that point. But just as I think with sakura, she isn't going to be hitting like that everytime, and she won't be opening with that unless she has full.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol she never did defeat him
> 
> She punched the weakest version of oro possible and he got up



Lol Yes she did. She punched him in the face, he got KO'd, and once he had recovered enough to regain consciousness he slithered away and then retreated because he was so exhausted. 

Even if that Orochimaru was substantially weaker, so was Tsunade, so who cares.



> She has larger reserves but dies to loosing a head



Orochimaru could never decapitate her. He isn't nearly fast enough.



> Oro has the benefit of being able to tank her punches



For as long as he still has the chakra to recover from the damage.



> Takes 3 years for the body to reject him , she can't beat on him for 3 years



That's only if he's recently switched bodies.



> he is faster,



But not fast enough to make a significant difference.



> less versatile



I assume you meant more versatile, and if so, that is still irrelevant in the outcome of the match. His versatile arsenal still can't kill her unless she has very little chakra stored up for Byakugou. 



> and has the better skill set



Edo Tensei is the only thing he has that would set his skill set as more powerful than Tsunade's.



> Since when was strength required to decapitate tsunade ? Bet that's your argument against oro , she looses her head against him .



Actually it's just because he isn't nearly fast or skilled enough to decapitate Tsunade. He got schooled by old Hiruzen at close range - Tsunade shits on him.



> no where it is implied that would require a special level of strength



I think common sense would indicate that you'd need a lot of strength To cut like 10 inches deep into someone strong enough to tank large, pointy, spinning blades (Magatama) slamming into their chest without even recieving a scratch.



Saru said:


> What makes you think that? I don't see her tanking Hiraishingiri to the neck or Suidanha.



Suidanha has no feats of speed so I don't know why it would blitz her, but even if it could, it's only feat is of cutting through wood, which isn't nearly as durable as Tsunade's body, which took three pointy Magatamas without recieving a scratch. Don't know why Hiraishingiri would be able to decapitate her either, as Tobirama possesses no feats to suggest he's strong enough to slice into someone that durable, both deeply and craftily, using just a kunai.



> He can mark the battlefield, move the fight elsewhere, summon Edo Tensei, and then use the technique without risk of injury. Or better yet, he can have a Kage Bunshin go place the Hiraishin seal for him elsewhere as he fights Tsunade.



I can see so many possible problems with this plan. Why would Tsunade stand idly while Tobirama has a Bunshin suspiciously run away to do errands? Tobirama has to be at a specific distance away from Tsunade to be able to escape the blast. If Tsunade moves towards wherever he's placed his seal, even if it's only by 20 or 30 meters, she could easily be bringing his Hiraishin seal into the area of impact. And I really doubt Tsunade vs Tobirama is going to be a cycle of Tobirama placing a seal on the ground, Tsunade charging at the seal, and then Tobirama running away and placing another seal, Tsunade charges towards it again etc., especially seeing as how Tobirama doesn't even use GKF ICly while he's alive. He only uses it on his Edo Tensei, but his Edo Tensei are so fodder that Tsunade can completely ignore their presence and charge at Tobirama/his Kage Bunshin whenever he tries to escape to place a seal.



> There are multiple tags, though...



[1]
​​


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Really? I thought that was like a minor release hence the close up, and highlighting. Scans please.
> 
> Lmao I thought i was conversing with Rocky



 Nope, that was all Base Sakura.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Suidanha has no feats of speed so I don't know why it would blitz her, but even if it could, it's only feat is of cutting through wood, which isn't nearly as durable as Tsunade's body, which took three pointy Magatamas without recieving a scratch. Don't know why Hiraishingiri would be able to decapitate her either, as Tobirama possesses no feats to suggest he's strong enough to slice into someone that durable, both deeply and craftily, using just a kunai.





Suidanha doesn't need feats of speed when the user moves at instantaneous speeds with Hiraishin. Hiraishingiri can be used with any weapon such as a sword. If you think that neither Suidanha nor a sword can cut through Tsunade's flesh, then... Nothing I say will likely change your mind. But just to let you know what actually happened: Tsunade healed from the damage she sustained from Madara's Magatama. Hence Madara's comment. She didn't tank anything.




> I can see so many possible problems with this plan. Why would Tsunade stand idly while Tobirama has a Bunshin suspiciously run away to do errands?




Well, she can't catch Tobirama, so... There's not a lot that she would be able to do about it, honestly.




> Tobirama has to be at a specific distance away from Tsunade to be able to escape the blast. If Tsunade moves towards wherever he's placed his seal, even if it's only by 20 or 30 meters, she could easily be bringing his Hiraishin seal into the area of impact.




It's a good thing Tobirama is smart enough to account for things like that...




> And I really doubt Tsunade vs Tobirama is going to be a cycle of Tobirama placing a seal on the ground, Tsunade charging at the seal, and then Tobirama running away and placing another seal, Tsunade charges towards it again etc.




Me too, especially since Tsunade's far slower than Tobirama and the latter can slice her head off with Hiraishin + Suidanha. This is something he can do over and over and over and over again, mind you.




> especially seeing as how Tobirama doesn't even use GKF ICly while he's alive. He only uses it on his Edo Tensei, but his Edo Tensei are so fodder that Tsunade can completely ignore their presence and charge at Tobirama/his Kage Bunshin whenever he tries to escape to place a seal.




Do you think that Tsunade can escape Deidara's C3? Because GKF has a comparable AoE but uses nukes that are more mobile. Tobirama doesn't have to attempt to use the Edo Tensei as anything more than explosives and create an explosion that's so large that Tsunade can't possibly escape. Tobirama can casually warp to his clone's Hiraishin marking. Tsunade cannot. She's also not nearly fast enough to catch Tobirama or his Kage Bunshin with sheer movement speed. So if Tobirama's Bunshin wishes to go elsewhere it will.




> scenario




Umm, that's great, but Tsunade needs to _*crush*_ the tags and their thousands of friends.​​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

Madara made that comment looking at the site where the giant blade went through Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 6, 2016)

I know the panel, but his attention was on the site where the blade went through her, which is why there's a zoom in on it. That tear on Tsunade's belt is where the blade was earlier.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Suidanha doesn't need feats of speed when the user moves at instantaneous speeds with Hiraishin. Hiraishingiri can be used with any weapon such as a sword. If you think that neither Suidanha nor a sword can cut through Tsunade's flesh, then... Nothing I say will likely change your mind. But just to let you know what actually happened: Tsunade healed from the damage she sustained from Madara's Magatama. Hence Madara's comment. She didn't tank anything.



Tobirama doesn't carry a sword, and Suidanha does need speed, regardless of Hiraishin. It takes longer to make a handseal and perform a jutsu than it does to jab at someone with a kunai. And FlamingRain has explained to you why the Magatama didn't break her skin, so my work here is done.



> Well, she can't catch Tobirama, so... There's not a lot that she would be able to do about it, honestly.



I think you're overestimating Tobirama's speed if you think that he's so much faster than Tsunade that he can create like a kilometre of distance between them without Tsunade being able to close at least some of that distance. Besides, clones are slower than the original, and unless he was Shunshining constantly, his foot speed probably isn't going to be much faster than Tsunade's anyway. Tsunade can canon-ball off the ground too, so it isn't like she can't move large distances quickly.



> It's a good thing Tobirama is smart enough to account for things like that...



And yet, there's nothing he can do about it. Which is exactly why he doesn't ICly use GKF unless he has alive ET prepped or he himself is an ET body.



> Do you think that Tsunade can escape Deidara's C3? Because GKF has a comparable AoE but uses nukes that are more mobile.



No I don't, but then Deidara can fly, meaning Tsunade can never get anywhere near him. Tobirama has to create a massive distance between himself and Tsunade using nothing but Shunshin and his footspeed, something I don't think is possible, or that he's likely to ICly attempt, because it seems a bit ridiculous.



> Tobirama doesn't have to attempt to use the Edo Tensei as anything more than explosives and create an explosion that's so large that Tsunade can't possibly escape. Tobirama can casually warp to his clone's Hiraishin marking. Tsunade cannot. She's also not nearly fast enough to catch Tobirama or his Kage Bunshin with sheer movement speed. So if Tobirama's Bunshin wishes to go elsewhere it will.



It seems like you're trying to assert that Tobirama can summon an ET, attach explosives to it, make a Kage Bunshin, have it run a kilometre into the distance, put a Hiraishin marking on the ground, and then have the ET explode, before Tsunade has time to do _anything_. In reality, the minute he summons an ET she will just canon-ball forwards and put a hole through it. When he attaches explosives and then has his KB go running, she destroys whatever explosives he throws/attaches, and then brings out Katsuyu, and starts using smashy smashy tactics on Tobirama to keep him preoccupied. Even if he does manage to place a seal far away, all she has to do is Shunshin a few dozen meters and she brings the seal into the radius of the explosion.



> Umm, that's great, but Tsunade needs to _*crush*_ the tags and their thousands of friends.



She only needs to crush the first few tags that Tobirama throws at her, which she does in quick succession.​​


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## shade0180 (Feb 7, 2016)

> Tobirama doesn't carry a sword,



Er he kind of owns a sword. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




Sword of the Thunder God


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 7, 2016)

Wasn't that just in the anime? He wasn't carrying it when he got revived, and we never saw him using it in flashbacks.​​


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tobirama doesn't carry a sword, and Suidanha does need speed, regardless of Hiraishin. It takes longer to make a handseal and perform a jutsu than it does to jab at someone with a kunai. And FlamingRain has explained to you why the Magatama didn't break her skin, so my work here is done.




When I analyze a character's overall battle potential, I take into consideration the tools they had in life. If Tobirama went into a battle during the warring era in which he lived, he would have had a sword. Also, making a handseal and using jutsu requires, like, no time at all. If what you are saying were true, then Minato would be a terribly ineffective fighter since he needs to form the Rasengan and then thrust it at the enemy after warping, and we know that's not the case. As for the Magatama, Madara only launched one at her, and she clearly healed the damage of the raw impact. It was a blunt-force type of attack, not a piercing / slicing one like Hiraishingiri or Suidanha. I hope you're not about to try to argue "B-But... the Magatama are pointy... !" 

Swords tend not to cause explosions upon impact... Regardless, Tsunade healed the damage done by the Magatama more quickly because it was less damaging than having something pierce her abdomen. Yasaka no Magatama first debuted when Itachi used it alongside Naruto's FRS and B's Bijūdama. Do you really think that Itachi intended to send an attack that would simply _pierce_ at the core of Chibaku Tensei. More importantly, do really think that Itachi's "strongest long-range attack" is weaker than Gōkakyū no Jutsu? Because we've already seen Tsuande suffer burns from Katon touching her arms briefly and the damage looked worse than whatever damage Madara did with his one Magatama--which Tsunade recovered from anyway. I guess it won't be long before people are asserting that Tsunade is durable enough to bathe in Gōkakyū no Jutsu without taking any damage.




> I think you're overestimating Tobirama's speed if you think that he's so much faster than Tsunade that he can create like a kilometre of distance between them without Tsunade being able to close at least some of that distance. Besides, clones are slower than the original, and unless he was Shunshining constantly, his foot speed probably isn't going to be much faster than Tsunade's anyway. Tsunade can canon-ball off the ground too, so it isn't like she can't move large distances quickly.




Explain to me how Tsunade runs past Tobirama and ignores his presence to chase after a Kage Bunshin which can use Hiraishin. Madara called Tobirama the fastest of his generation for a reason. I'm sorry, but Tsunade is just _not_ fast enough to swoop around Tobirama and outpace his Kage Bunshin.




> And yet, there's nothing he can do about it. Which is exactly why he doesn't ICly use GKF unless he has alive ET prepped or he himself is an ET body.




Obviously Tobirama had Edo Tensei prepped in life, and obviously one should take that into consideration when analyzing his overall battle power. Did you think I was implying that Tobirama could use GKF himself? For one, that's not even possible. The technique requires a body to be used as medium for initiation. Any time Tobirama uses GKF, he's going to need Edo Tensei to do it. Second of all, Tobirama had clearly developed this technique in life for the purpose of using it in battle, and Hiruzen himself had knowledge of the jutsu. Tobirama used GKF in life. Tobirama used GKF IC.





> No I don't, but then Deidara can fly, meaning Tsunade can never get anywhere near him. Tobirama has to create a massive distance between himself and Tsunade using nothing but Shunshin and his footspeed, something I don't think is possible, or that he's likely to ICly attempt, because it seems a bit ridiculous.




 Are you really telling me that Tobirama wouldn't resort to using his most powerful known jutsu if necessary, because, oh, wait... He already did _in canon_.  Escaping the explosion? That's what Kage Bunshin and Hiraishin if for. And guess what? _Tobirama created those too_. It's almost as if Tobirama was trying to create a battle strategy or something. 

The argument that Tobirama created a technique that he can't effectively use in battle against Tsunade or would not use IC against Tsunade is _incredibly_ weak.




> It seems like you're trying to assert that Tobirama can summon an ET, attach explosives to it, make a Kage Bunshin, have it run a kilometre into the distance, put a Hiraishin marking on the ground, and then have the ET explode, before Tsunade has time to do _anything_. In reality, the minute he summons an ET she will just canon-ball forwards and put a hole through it. When he attaches explosives and then has his KB go running, she destroys whatever explosives he throws/attaches, and then brings out Katsuyu, and starts using smashy smashy tactics on Tobirama to keep him preoccupied. Even if he does manage to place a seal far away, all she has to do is Shunshin a few dozen meters and she brings the seal into the radius of the explosion.




Why does your argument assume that Tobirama is a noob? Obviously Tobirama would make the Kage Bunshin (or make _several_) in battle and have one Shunshin / Hiraishin warp far away once he decides that he will use GKF. When the clone has done its job and placed a Hiraishin seal a safe distance away from GKF's explosion radius, it will poof and Tobirama will initiate GKF. He then uses Hiraishin to escape the blast as Tsunade gets blown up. Tsunade's not going to be fast enough to grab and crush the explosive tags, and you've provided no evidence that she can. Regardless, she would _never_ be able to crush thousands of tags. In fact, she would be much better off summoning Katsuyu and hiding in her body, or better yet being reverse summoned to retreat from the battle altogether. The fact that you think GKF can be countered with Tsunade's Body Flicker is also mind-boggling. Tsunade is far too slow Body Flicker out of range before the detonation of GKF; she wouldn't be able to reach the seal in time. She wouldn't even know where the seal was if Tobirama was used multiple Kage Bunshin. Being able to Shunshin towards Tobirama to avoid the explosion or suck him into it is fanfic. Tsunade doesn't have Hiraishin, unfortunately. I also love how Tsunade can Shunshin forward a "few dozen meters" in your fanfic but Tobirama can't do the same. 





> She only needs to crush the first few tags that Tobirama throws at her, which she does in quick succession.




Sounds like fanfic. The tags summon other tags if you recall, and Tobirama can use multiple Edo Tensei kamikaze. I find this whole discussion amusing, because even if Tobirama couldn't kill Tsunade with Suidanha or GKF... Tsunade would run out of Byakugō no Jutsu. GKF would certainly end Byakugō no Jutsu if not outright obliterate the Slug Princess.
​​


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Yooo I kinda like the way that indent looks. Ima start doing that until I get tired of it and eventually stop.


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2016)

Tsunade is hurt by the fact that Kishimoto did a really poor job of illustrating the combat effectiveness of medical ninja, even-though he put a great deal of time putting emphasis on the exact opposite, that they are extremely effective in combat. I bring this up because we are told about top Medical Ninja having abilities that would be super effective, but are never shown them in practice.

For example Chiyo states that Tsunade brewed antidotes to all of her poisons in an instant, and in the middle of battle. So it's not unimaginable that Tsunade could create an antidote to Sasori's, Hanzo's, or Orochimaru's poisons in the midst of battle and that would be extremely valuable and go a long way to allowing Tsunade to defeat them. Like wise Tsunade was also stated to be the only one capable of generating oberless, tastless, etc.. poison that could easily down a Sannin,  and it's not unimaginable she could employ similar poisons in battle like her student Shizune does, which would make her even more dangerous in CQC. Or the fact that she was about to kill Orochimaru w/ a single applicate of Reverse Shosen, which could be excessively dangerous in combat especially when used through Katsuya.

But again we never saw any of these things, because Kishimoto gave medical Ninja very little 1v1 battles, so most of the time the medics simply opted to use their skills for support, as ultimately that's what they are best at.

So when someone says whose the strongest Tsunade can beat, it's tough, as she never got a 1v1 showing in PartII, and really no medic did, so we can't really evaluate what exactly top Medical Ninja are capable off in combat.


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## Bringer (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> When I analyze a character's overall battle potential, I take into consideration the tools they had in life. If Tobirama went into a battle during the warring era in which he lived, he would have had a sword. Also, making a handseal and using jutsu requires, like, no time at all. If what you are saying were true, then Minato would be a terribly ineffective fighter since he needs to form the Rasengan and then thrust it at the enemy after warping, and we know that's not the case. *As for the Magatama, Madara only launched one at her, and she clearly healed the damage of the raw impact. It was a blunt-force type of attack, not a piercing / slicing one like Hiraishingiri or Suidanha. I hope you're not about to try to argue "B-But... the Magatama are pointy... !" *



I like how you transitioned from "The Magatama gave her the slash wound!" to "The Magatama were blunt damage" after you were corrected and realized she healed from the sword stab and not the Magatama.

Yasaka Magatama are Susanoo Shuriken, and Shuriken cut and spin.


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## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

No Magataa burrow through withblunt force. The only shuriken type is Sasuke's, the rest are clearly models after beaded jewels.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I like how you transitioned from "The Magatama gave her the slash wound!" to "The Magatama were blunt damage" after you were corrected and realized she healed from the sword stab and not the Magatama.




No, I didn't. Reread both of my posts. Nowhere did I imply that Yasaka no Magatama was a slicing / piercing force, but I anticipated that someone would try to suggest otherwise. I wasn't corrected either; the damage that Tsunade received from the Magatama was healed, so whatever damage the blunt force of the Magatama did was obviously less severe than the Susano'o sword through her gut. This in essence further proves my point: Tsunade is not durable enough to withstand slicing.




> Yasaka Magatama are Susanoo Shuriken, and Shuriken cut and spin.




Even though every instance of its use suggests otherwise, you're free to believe that if you feel so inclined.



Dr. White said:


> No Magataa burrow through withblunt force. The only shuriken type is Sasuke's, the rest are clearly models after beaded jewels.




Even in Sasuke's Enton: Yasaka no Magatama debut, the technique caused an _explosion_ of black flames upon impact




Note that none of the White Zetsu were sliced.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Or the fact that she was about to kill Orochimaru w/ a single applicate of Reverse Shosen, which could be excessively dangerous in combat especially when used through Katsuya.



We actually saw this one.

Kabuto used it on Kiba before kicking off Leaf vs Sound and Sand- the databook says one can overload an enemy's circulatory system with the Chakra, after which they would pass out.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> The only damage that Tsunade was shown healing from was the damage from the Susanoo sword. Then you go on to link the panel saying she was healing from Yasaka Magatama... When again the only damage she was healing was a vertical gash which could only come from the Susanoo sword. Madara was referring to his sword stab, not his Yaskaka Magatama. You clearly tried to pass off that wound as the damage from Yasaka Magatama, which means you didn't think it was just blunt damage before, because blunt damage doesn't leave vertical gashes.




I said that she had already healed from the Magatama. Why are you trying argue what _I_ said, bro? 




> What are you talking about, in every instance Yasaka Magatama has been shown to be pointed rotating Susanoo shuriken's.




... That explode. 



> It looks like to me that those Yasaka Magatama were made out of only amaratsu flames, and not Susanoo. Hence the enton(amaratsu shape manipulation ability) if he was just coating the Yasaka Magatama in flames he wouldn't need enton, and the zetsu's would've been at the very least launched away like Tsunade was when she got hit by Yasaka Magatama. Instead they just caught ablaze and toppled over.
> 
> This was clearly different from Madara's and Itachi's Yasaka Magatama.




Yet Itachi's and Madara's Magatama caused an explosion, too. So clearly different. 

Like I said, if you want to believe that, you can.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 7, 2016)

Probably Gaara, honestly.


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## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

@POW & FlamingRain

True, I can see now why you guys would think that Tsunade has a good shot at MS Sasuke.


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## Bringer (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> I said that she had already healed from the Magatama. Why are you trying argue what _I_ said, bro?



You know what, you're right. It's stupid to try to argue what you said. I will say that you made an unintentional implication, because it wasn't only me who thought you were mistaking the damage the sword did for the damage the Yasaka Magatama did. It would seem as if FR and GT thought you meant that too. Try being clearer next time 




> ... That explode.



Okay cool, it explodes after it cuts/pierces. 




> Yet Itachi's and Madara's Magatama caused an explosion, too. So clearly different.



So why didn't Madara's Yasaka Magatama bury/pierce/cut it's way through Tsunade like it did to Onoki's and Gaara's double defense? 



> Like I said, if you want to believe that, you can.



Sure, let's agree to disagree.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> You know what, you're right. It's stupid to try to argue what you said. I will say that you made an unintentional implication, because it wasn't only me who thought you were mistaking the damage the sword did for the damage the Yasaka Magatama did. It would seem as if FR and GT thought you meant that too. Try being clearer next time




But FR didn't say anything about piercing.


Never mind. 




> Okay cool,*it explodes after it cuts/pierces.*




That would be _highly_ impratical. Obviously the explosion is more lethal than the moment of impact.




> So why didn't Madara's Yasaka Magatama bury/pierce/cut it's way through Tsunade like it did to Onoki's and Gaara's double defense?




It _didn't_ pierce the Kage's combined defense. Madara bombarded their defense with Magatama and it almost caved. I used to think that Magatama pierced based on that panel too, so I ain't mad atcha. But you have to look at the evidence objectively. You can't say that Madara's attack pierced when the Magatama weren't shown to be still intact, and literally _every_ instance in which Yasaka no Magatama was used, the Magatama exploded. 





See how the sand flies outward? That's from an explosion.




> Sure, let's agree to disagree.




Well I suppose we'll have to.


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2016)

Loving this tsunade neck immune to being cut 

Hidan can tank Atsugi but shikamaru can cut his neck off 

Unless godaime is implying Hidan can't tank 1 silly yasaka bead . I don't get this whole tsunade is immune to loosing her head


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> When I analyze a character's overall battle potential, I take into consideration the tools they had in life.If Tobirama went into a battle during the warring era in which he lived, he would have had a sword.



Tobirama was revived in the same form that he died. So post-Warring states era, he wasn't using a sword. In the past, Tsunade wore battle armour, carried poisons, could probably move faster, but none of these things apply to Tsunade's most current, most commonly seen form. 



> Also, making a handseal and using jutsu requires, like, no time at all. If what you are saying were true, then Minato would be a terribly ineffective fighter since he needs to form the Rasengan and then thrust it at the enemy after warping, and we know that's not the case.



Tobirama is not Minato, and Rasengan is not Suidanha. Why should we just give Minato's physical movement feats to Tobirama? Besides, Rasengan doesn't need a handseal.



> As for the Magatama, Madara only launched one at her, and she clearly healed the damage of the raw impact.



Nothing was _clearly_ healed, other than the gash in her stomach from the sword that had impaled her earlier on.



> It was a blunt-force type of attack, not a piercing / slicing one like Hiraishingiri or Suidanha. I hope you're not about to try to argue "B-But... the Magatama are pointy... !"



Why are you trying to argue that pointy, spinning shuriken colliding with someone at whothefuckknowshowmany miles an hour was _not_ piercing damage?



> Swords tend not to cause explosions upon impact... Regardless, Tsunade healed the damage done by the Magatama more quickly because it was less damaging than having something pierce her abdomen. Yasaka no Magatama first debuted when Itachi used it alongside Naruto's FRS and B's Bijūdama. Do you really think that Itachi intended to send an attack that would simply _pierce_ at the core of Chibaku Tensei. More importantly, do really think that Itachi's "strongest long-range attack" is weaker than Gōkakyū no Jutsu? Because we've already seen Tsuande suffer burns from Katon touching her arms briefly and the damage looked worse than whatever damage Madara did with his one Magatama--which Tsunade recovered from anyway. I guess it won't be long before people are asserting that Tsunade is durable enough to bathe in Gōkakyū no Jutsu without taking any damage.



Durability is not consistent. Tsunade can be resilient to piercing damage and blunt force trauma but still suffer burns. There are plenty of characters who have taken ridiculous amounts of a certain kind of damage without any scars to show for it, but yet suffered obvious injuries from other kinds of damage. And yes, Magatama seemingly explode, but they have to make contact first. 



> Explain to me how Tsunade runs past Tobirama and ignores his presence to chase after a Kage Bunshin which can use Hiraishin. Madara called Tobirama the fastest of his generation for a reason. I'm sorry, but Tsunade is just _not_ fast enough to swoop around Tobirama and outpace his Kage Bunshin.



She doesn't need to if she can just destroy his tags. 



> Obviously Tobirama had Edo Tensei prepped in life, and obviously one should take that into consideration when analyzing his overall battle power. Did you think I was implying that Tobirama could use GKF himself? For one, that's not even possible. The technique requires a body to be used as medium for initiation. Any time Tobirama uses GKF, he's going to need Edo Tensei to do it. Second of all, Tobirama had clearly developed this technique in life for the purpose of using it in battle, and Hiruzen himself had knowledge of the jutsu. Tobirama used GKF in life. Tobirama used GKF IC.



Tobirama probably placed tags far from the battlefield before he entered the fight. In which case, all he had to do was summon his ET, Hiraishin away and then GKF the shit out of his opponents. If he had the luxury of that preparation when fighting Tsunade, then yes he might be able to exhaust her regeneration and kill her in many scenarios, but there are few scenarios that he has Edo Tensei prepared as soon as he walks onto the battlefield, especially since he eventually banned the jutsu's use and saw it as a corrupt technique. And there are fewer scenarios still that he has both ET prepared and a seal placed far away before he walks onto the field. 



> Are you really telling me that Tobirama wouldn't resort to using his most powerful known jutsu if necessary, because, oh, wait... He already did _in canon_.  Escaping the explosion? That's what Kage Bunshin and Hiraishin if for. And guess what? _Tobirama created those too_. It's almost as if Tobirama was trying to create a battle strategy or something.



He used it in canon when he was either dead or when he had Edo Tensei prepared. There is no proof that he used it without ET prepared, and there is no proof that he used it mid battle against opponents of Tsunade's level and was able to successfully pull it off. If he's prepared Hiraishin seals beforehand then sure, but that's a specific stipulation that he doesn't have in every match up.



> The argument that Tobirama created a technique that he can't effectively use in battle against Tsunade or would not use IC against Tsunade is _incredibly_ weak.



He can use it effectively, he just needs preparation.



> Why does your argument assume that Tobirama is a noob? Obviously Tobirama would make the Kage Bunshin (or make _several_) in battle and have one Shunshin / Hiraishin warp far away once he decides that he will use GKF. When the clone has done its job and placed a Hiraishin seal a safe distance away from GKF's explosion radius, it will poof and Tobirama will initiate GKF. He then uses Hiraishin to escape the blast as Tsunade gets blown up. *Tsunade's not going to be fast enough to grab and crush the explosive tags, and you've provided no evidence that she can.*



Why wouldn't she? They're just explosive tags. Genin use them. And if Tobirama attaches them to Tsunade while his KB are running away, then she has plenty of time to destroy them.



> Regardless, she would _never_ be able to crush thousands of tags.



Agreed, thankfully she can just destroy the first few and avoid that situation altogether.



> In fact, she would be much better off summoning Katsuyu and hiding in her body, or better yet being reverse summoned to retreat from the battle altogether. The fact that you think GKF can be countered with Tsunade's Body Flicker is also mind-boggling. Tsunade is far too slow Body Flicker out of range before the detonation of GKF; she wouldn't be able to reach the seal in time. She wouldn't even know where the seal was if Tobirama was used multiple Kage Bunshin. Being able to Shunshin towards Tobirama to avoid the explosion or suck him into it is fanfic. Tsunade doesn't have Hiraishin, unfortunately. I also love how Tsunade can Shunshin forward a "few dozen meters" in your fanfic but Tobirama can't do the same.



If you think that Tsunade can save herself from GKF by hiding inside Katsuyu or reverse summoning, why are you even arguing with me? Lol. And Tobirama would need some kind of X-Ray vision to know that Tsunade has even moved at all, if he's able to get so far away from her that he's out of the range of his GKF. In fact, even if he could see her, or he decided to metagame and sense her immediately after teleportation, he still can't detonate his tags so long as she's within range. The only realistic scenario would be if Tobirama created a bunch of KB, and they all ran in different directions, and there was exactly a big enough space between them and Tsunade for Tobirama to teleport to any seal. But that still takes time, time she can use to just destroy the first tags that are thrown at her. 



> Sounds like fanfic. The tags summon other tags if you recall, and Tobirama can use multiple Edo Tensei kamikaze. I find this whole discussion amusing, because even if Tobirama couldn't kill Tsunade with Suidanha or GKF... Tsunade would run out of Byakugō no Jutsu. GKF would certainly end Byakugō no Jutsu if not outright obliterate the Slug Princess.



I love how you think that anything that is not your opinion is fanfic. The tags summon other tags if they haven't already been obliterated. Also, as with Konan's paper ocean technique, Tsunade wouldn't be hit by every single explosive..because presumably there are hundreds of thousands being summoned over a huge radius, and Tsunade is tiny by comparison. I'm not sure how many would hit her, but not nearly all of them would.




Icegaze said:


> Loving this tsunade neck immune to being cut
> 
> Hidan can tank Atsugi but shikamaru can cut his neck off
> 
> Unless godaime is implying Hidan can't tank 1 silly yasaka bead . I don't get this whole tsunade is immune to loosing her head



Atsugai is shit. It hollowed out a few trees and inflicted pitiful damage to Kakashi, who isn't particularly durable either. But then again, that was blunt force trauma, and everyone and their mother can take ridiculous amounts of blunt force trauma in this manga. Piercing damage is always more lethal, and yet Tsunade resisted that too.​​


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

Nah, a sword is standard equipment for Tobirama. It's a part of his fighting style forever, and he still used a sword when he had his blue armor on.

I'd also argue there is precedent for Tsunade having poisons based on Sakura, and Shizune.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tobirama was revived in the same form that he died. So post-Warring states era, he wasn't using a sword. In the past, Tsunade wore battle armour, carried poisons, could probably move faster, but none of these things apply to Tsunade's most current, most commonly seen form.




The difference is that we've seen Tobirama use his sword in combat, while Tsunade has no feats of using poisons and battle armor on panel. Therefore her poison is featless; her battle armor is featless. There's nothing to work with in terms of Tsunade's poison or the durability of her battle armor. You're free to argue that Tsunade could use poisons and whatnot, but best of luck with that when she has literally zero feats with those things. Unfortunately, Kishimoto failed to deliver on that front. Tobirama literally debuted _Hiraishingiri_ with a sword. I should also add that it would be remiss to ignore Tobirama's sword given how little we know about his skills in combat. The fact that Tobirama has used his sword on-panel (like Hashirama's and Madara's weapons) in life means that one should take it into account. As another example, Madara could summon Kurama in life, and it was a huge part of his arsenal, so most of the time people tend to specify whether or not Kurama is allowed in a Madara thread because he is assumed to still be able to use it. As yet another example, Chiyo could lace her puppets' weapons with lethal poison in life, so people often assume that she can do so in the Battledome as well (as far as I have seen) because it does not introduce a wild amount of speculation or betray Chiyo's portrayal in the manga.




> Tobirama is not Minato, and Rasengan is not Suidanha. Why should we just give Minato's physical movement feats to Tobirama? Besides, Rasengan doesn't need a handseal.




Well, we should not "give Minato's physical movement feats to Tobirama," but we could compare how effective their techniques are in application, because Minato's and Tobirama's battle styles are extremely similar. I thought that _Suidanha_ required one hand seal, so in consideration of that, I _don't_ think Tobirama would be able to get behind Tsunade and decapitate her with _Suidanha_ with as much ease as Minato would have using Rasengan. However, as we have seen, a technique can be prepared prior to warping with _Hiraishin_ and then used with deadly effectiveness.







With that in mind, Tobirama could make the hand seals for _Suidanha_ then warp with _Hiraishin_ to strike Tsunade in her blind spot. Tobirama could also use _Hiraishingiri_ in tandem with his sword to decapitate Tsunade in a more subtle and efficient manner.




> Nothing was _clearly_ healed, other than the gash in her stomach from the sword that had impaled her earlier on.




Well, the sword ran her through. Tsunade was still intact after the Magatama exploded, so it doesn't surprise me that she was able to heal from that injury more quickly. Logically, the sword damage would take longer to heal from than damage from blunt force because there are more possibly more cells and certainly more complicated injuries to regenerate from.

However, I'm glad you brought healing up. Tsunade had clear damage from Madara's Magatama.









Notice the marks around her breasts and chest? Those injuries were from Madara's Magatama after Tsunade had healed them. Now, censorship is a thing, so Kishimoto couldn't have Tsunade's breasts and stomach be exposed by Madara's attack (and this is Shonen; clothes are highly durable), but there was clearly damage done. By the time Madara had looked Tsunade in the eye after knocking her aside with his Magatama, the wound from the Susano'o sword had already almost completely healed. The simple conclusion is that Tsunade is able to recover from the damage done by one of Madara's Magatama more rapidly than the damage done by a sword running her through (for reasons I mentioned above).



> Why are you trying to argue that pointy, spinning shuriken colliding with someone at whothefuckknowshowmany miles an hour was _not_ piercing damage?




Please, show me an example of _Yasaka no Magatama_ piercing anything. Naruto's FRS is literally a shuriken, but is its primary purpose to cut enemies? No. I posted the panels above which contradict the argument that Tsunade withstood "pointy, spinning shuriken." You have failed to address any of that evidence. _Yasaka no Magatama_ is not an attack designed for piercing, and it never has been in literally any of its showings. No two ways about that, I'm afraid. The Magatama cause explosions upon impact. 

As far as lethality, I would say that the scale of the Magatama's explosion is probably comparable to an explosive tag, but the damage done is somewhat dubious. I doubt that Magatama are as weak as a mere explosive tag, but I think the damage that would be done is probably comparable enough to make the difference in damage more negligible. The damage done by three Magatama thrown in a chain as in its debut (to thwart Chibaku Tensei) is likely far greater, however.




> Durability is not consistent. Tsunade can be resilient to piercing damage and blunt force trauma but still suffer burns. There are plenty of characters who have taken ridiculous amounts of a certain kind of damage without any scars to show for it, but yet suffered obvious injuries from other kinds of damage. And yes, Magatama seemingly explode, but they have to make contact first.




If you wanted to argue that Tsunade with _Byakugō no Jutsu_ activated could recover from explosion damage and not be obliterated, I would probably be more likely to agree with you. Tsunade has never tanked piercing / slicing damage. If you're going to pull up the case of Orochimaru and Kusanagi, I don't think that Orochimaru tried to slice through her, so that wouldn't convince me. Kishimoto has a habit of making a fuss when a character uses durability to their advantage. For example, Sandaime Raikage was shown to have been the only person capable of surviving Heavenly Transfer with no injuries, so when A did that, his durability was not implied, it was made explicit.  I've already shown why _Yasaka no Magatama_ are not designed to pierce with the scans in this post and the posts above.




> She doesn't need to if she can just destroy his tags.




If it was that easy, I doubt that GKF would be so dangerous. 




> Tobirama probably placed tags far from the battlefield before he entered the fight. In which case, all he had to do was summon his ET, Hiraishin away and then GKF the shit out of his opponents. If he had the luxury of that preparation when fighting Tsunade, then yes he might be able to exhaust her regeneration and kill her in many scenarios, but there are few scenarios that he has Edo Tensei prepared as soon as he walks onto the battlefield, especially since he eventually banned the jutsu's use and saw it as a corrupt technique. And there are fewer scenarios still that he has both ET prepared and a seal placed far away before he walks onto the field.




So your argument is essentially that, based on inference, Tobirama wouldn't have access to his full power and would have used GKF differently than I suggested? Tobirama is one of the most intelligent characters in the manga and as such is more than capable of adapting. Again, the argument that "well, Tobirama wouldn't use this like that when he was alive" is purely biased conjecture that assumes that Tobirama would hold back or not be at his best. It's a weak argument.




> He used it in canon when he was either dead or when he had Edo Tensei prepared. There is no proof that he used it without ET prepared, and there is no proof that he used it mid battle against opponents of Tsunade's level and was able to successfully pull it off. If he's prepared Hiraishin seals beforehand then sure, but that's a specific stipulation that he doesn't have in every match up.




He used it on Juubito in the midst of being hit. Tobirama's _Edo Tensei_ kamikaze could do the same thing to Tsunade. In fact, the kamikaze wouldn't even need to touch Tsunade. They could simply throw the tags near her location. The blast radius is so large that escaping is nearly impossible to begin with. Tobirama could also use _Hiraishin_ with his _Edo Tensei_ to warp them into Tsunade's grill provided that she is marked or there is a _Hiraishin_ seal nearby.


I have a question for you regarding GKF's portrayal: If Kishimoto had Tobirama use GKF on Juubito, do you think that that Tobirama would have a problem using it on Kage-level ninja if given the opportunity (with multiple Edo Tensei at his disposal, no less)? Of course he didn't use it without _Edo Tensei_ prepared; there's no reason to even look for proof of that. Again, the techniqe requires sacrifice. No sacrifice, no technique. No _Edo Tensei_, no GKF. Tobirama wouldn't need to prepare a _Hiraishin_ seal outside of the battlefield beforehand. He could just use _Kage Bunshin_ and have a clone go mark a safe area as he fights Tsunade. If most people in the NBD can see the logic behind this obvious tactic, why do you think that for some reason Tobirama wouldn't? He _*created*_ _Kage Bunshin_. He _*created*_ GKF and _Hiraishin_. He probably knows how to use those techniques in combination more effectively than almost anyone else in the manga.




> He can use it effectively, he just needs preparation.




Aside from Edo Tensei, he doesn't.





> Why wouldn't she? They're just explosive tags. Genin use them. And if Tobirama attaches them to Tsunade while his KB are running away, then she has plenty of time to destroy them.




What about this simple strategy is unclear? Tobirama could make a clone and have it go elsewhere, _then_ have it  _poof!_ (clones have Tobirama's brain and can transmit information when _poofed!_, remember?), then initiate GKF and warp with _Hiraishin_. He wouldn't attach them to Tsunade _as_ the Kage Bunshin is/are running away. That would just be moronic. He would wait until the clones are a safe distance away (again, the clones have his brain and know the strategy, so they can _poof!_ when they find it most appropriate) _then_ use GKF. And no, Tsunade's not as fast as Tobirama--the fastest person in a generation of people like Madara and Hashirama. Madara actually blitzed SM Naruto with incredible ease, so... What does that say about what Tobirama could do? Tobirama could also, you know, attack her as the _Edo Tensei_ throw the tags. He would be able to warp away instantly at any time, as he's the one who activates GKF.




> Agreed, thankfully she can just destroy the first few and avoid that situation altogether.




I highly doubt that. Even if she could, the tags would summon more tags regardless. 

***​


			
				Fourth Databook said:
			
		

> Gojō Kibaku Fuda
> Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags
> Ninjutsu
> A-rank; Offensive; Close-range
> ...



***​
The tags are going to summon countless other tags no matter what Tsunade does. I don't know where you got the impression the technique could be circumvented with genin battle tactics, or that the multiplication of the tags took place after the tags exploded. The tags are thrown, then they multiply, then they explode and summon more tags. Summoning is a type of S/T ninjutsu--it's instantaneous. So Tsunade would not be able to grab all of the tags before they exploded. 




> If you think that Tsunade can save herself from GKF by hiding inside Katsuyu or reverse summoning, why are you even arguing with me? Lol. And Tobirama would need some kind of X-Ray vision to know that Tsunade has even moved at all, if he's able to get so far away from her that he's out of the range of his GKF. In fact, even if he could see her, or he decided to metagame and sense her immediately after teleportation, he still can't detonate his tags so long as she's within range. The only realistic scenario would be if Tobirama created a bunch of KB, and they all ran in different directions, and there was exactly a big enough space between them and Tsunade for Tobirama to teleport to any seal. But that still takes time, time she can use to just destroy the first tags that are thrown at her.




Well, reverse summoning would be BFR. I think that Katsuyu has the potential to survive, but she would probably get thoroughly destroyed in the process, and Tobirama can just rinse and repeat. Either Byakugō no Jutsu would run out, or Katsuyu would get destroyed (with Tsunade being badly damaged but able to recover). I can see Tsunade taking GKF once... But not twice.




> I love how you think that anything that is not your opinion is fanfic. The tags summon other tags if they haven't already been obliterated. Also, as with Konan's paper ocean technique, Tsunade wouldn't be hit by every single explosive..because presumably there are hundreds of thousands being summoned over a huge radius, and Tsunade is tiny by comparison. I'm not sure how many would hit her, but not nearly all of them would.




That _is_ fanfic though. You literally just made that stipulation up, and that's not how the jutsu works anyway. The tags summon many tags... Then they explode and summon more tags. The blast radius is irrelevant to the damage done to Tsunade unless she's outside of it. If Tobirama used GKF, Tsunade would be in pretty bad shape if not outright obliterated.​​


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> We actually saw this one.
> 
> Kabuto used it on Kiba before kicking off Leaf vs Sound and Sand- the databook says one can overload an enemy's circulatory system with the Chakra, after which they would pass out.



True, but no one is going to take seriously a feat against P1-Kiba, and it's a far cry from the implied power of taking down Orochimaru.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Notice the marks around her breasts and chest? Those injuries were from Madara's Magatama after Tsunade had healed them.​​



Those are marks you could already see in prior panels when Madara tried stabbing her.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

The ones that resemble a burn or wave pattern weren't there previously. You can even see the injury covering up part of Tsunade's Byakugou markings on her chest.

Look at the second scan and at the last scan.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

That would be steam, produced by the earlier stab wound healing and rising from her front and back.

We saw that effect back when she healed the injuries sustained by the Kusanagi in Part 1 _(1)_.

Actually we saw it on Kabuto, too _(2)_.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

... From what? Whatever we're seeing in that panel is not in the previous panel.


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## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

It should also be noted that she took a V1 Magatama, not the V3 version which is thrown with much more force (the one that burrowed through cave, helped beat CT, and broke through sand/doton defense)


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## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That would be steam, produced by the earlier stab wound healing and rising from her front and back.
> 
> We saw that effect back when she healed the injuries sustained by the Kusanagi in Part 1 _(1)_.
> 
> Actually we saw it on Kabuto, too _(2)_.






If that's the case, the steam surrounding her entire stomach and chest area--where Tsunade was hit by Madara's Magatama--would imply that she was healing from an injury in that area. Like whatever injury was sustained from the Magatama.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

Or the steam emerging from the site of the stabbing was simply spreading as it rose, like my humidifier does.


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## Jad (Feb 8, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Or the steam emerging from the site of the stabbing was simply spreading as it rose, like my humidifier does.



It was surrounding her entire body to the point even the pig tails seemed to be lifted in the air.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

Jad said:


> It was surrounding her entire body to the point even the pig tails seemed to be lifted in the air.



The blade went in her stomach _and out her back_, so there would have been steam rising behind her too. Notice how you don't see it coming off of her arm, even though the sleeve was torn off.

Her pig tails were likely up for the same reason the tail of her haori was up, which is that the boulder she was bashed into was still crumbling (as per sound effects) and she hadn't actually landed on the ground until that point.


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## Jad (Feb 8, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The blade went in her stomach _and out her back_, so there would have been steam rising behind her too. Notice how you don't see it coming off of her arm, even though the sleeve was torn off.
> 
> Her pig tails were likely up for the same reason the tail of her haori was up, which is that the boulder she was bashed into was still crumbling (as per sound effects) and she hadn't actually landed on the ground until that point.



She is clearly not moving or falling or anything as usually indicated by 'lines' that indicate movement. Her pig tails are literally spiking up, not far fetched her clothes would flutter as well. HER WHOLE body is covered in steam that indicates healing. From her arms to wherever. She clearly didn't tank ANY attack and needed a full body regen for mostly internal damage and bones. I hadn't noticed but now this confirms she didn't tank the attacks.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

There are not lines indicating movement every time a character is moving, especially when the distance isn't particularly significant, and we can already see that there is no steam on her arm, where the clothing was actually removed, so no her whole body _wasn't_ covered in steam.


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## Jad (Feb 8, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> There are not lines indicating movement every time a character is moving, especially when the distance isn't particularly significant, and we can already see that there is no steam on her arm, where the clothing was actually removed, so no her whole body _wasn't_ covered in steam.



Look at the second panel of her close up. Her pig tails are still up.

First panel her head is down, second panel head looks up.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

We also see a lack of steam on her arm, which is right in front of a spot where steam is actually coming from.

If there were steam emanating from her full body and it was enough to raise her pigtails her coat would have swollen up like a balloon instead of only rising at the tail.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 8, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Loving this tsunade neck immune to being cut
> 
> Hidan can tank Atsugi but shikamaru can cut his neck off
> 
> Unless godaime is implying Hidan can't tank 1 silly yasaka bead . I don't get this whole tsunade is immune to loosing her head



And Kisame can be cut by a lighting pencil but Hirudora didnt sratch him. But anyway, the Magatama didnt pierce Tsunade. So shes more durable than Sand/Chokeijugan Golem defence. Its just how it is. Nine Bijuus couldnt pulverise Madara. All they could do was cut his arm off.


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## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And Kisame can be cut by a lighting pencil but Hirudora didnt sratch him.




One of those is an attack designed for piercing, though. The other is not.




> But anyway, the Magatama didnt pierce Tsunade. So shes more durable than Sand/Chokeijugan Golem defence. Its just how it is. Nine Bijuus couldnt pulverise Madara. All they could do was cut his arm off.




The Magatama was not intended to pierce either. Madara only threw one Magatama at her for one, as opposed to many like he did against Gaara's sand and Onoki's Doton, and he used it in a weaker form of Susano'o which may have lowered strength. When the bijū smacked Madara around, he was already partway Rikudō and had Hashirama's Sage Mode durability, so that probably had a lot to do with it. Tsunade is neither Rikudō nor is she a Sage. 

Although it's interesting you brought Madara up, because Shukaku's _Fūton_ Sasandan, which was intended to pierce, went straight through Madara's body.


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## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Atsugai is shit. It hollowed out a few trees and inflicted pitiful damage to Kakashi, who isn't particularly durable either. But then again, that was blunt force trauma, and everyone and their mother can take ridiculous amounts of blunt force trauma in this manga. Piercing damage is always more lethal, and yet Tsunade resisted that too.​​



Atsugi is shit is a weak argument

I could just say 1 yasaka bead is shit. that's why tsunade tanked it. 

it didn't touch kakashi, it was clearly stated he avoided it. Aaah how fandom turns people into tards 

tsunade has no feats of tanking a slash to the head. which is my point

if someone stabs my neck with a 4 inch blade it could go through and through, doesn't mean someone doing that with the same force will run through my abdomen and come out the other side

there is zero evidence kusanagi wont run through her neck, considering it ran through her chest casually

there is zero evidence hirashingiri wont run through her neck either


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> there is zero evidence hirashingiri wont run through her neck either


Well tell me then cos Tobirama didn't run through Izuna did he? if so, where is the blood?
*Spoiler*: _The blood is only coming from his side_ 







I doubt Tobirama can run someone through.So stop using Kusanagi as an excuse for Tobirama. Kusanagi can cut the same Kongou Nyoi that bitchslapped 100% Kyuubi out of Konoha.
[sp][/sp]
The problem with this forum is underrating/overrating.
_Tobirama can't do anything to Tsunade, but because they think he' s stronger than her, they say she can slice in her half with a senbon. Thats how bad it is. Sannin > Tobirama. End of story. Tobirama is the same as KinGin and Hanzo. All hype and no feats._


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Well tell me then cos Tobirama didn't run through Izuna did he? if so, where is the blood?
> *Spoiler*: _The blood is only coming from his side_
> 
> 
> ...



Because he cut his gut . At that angle . What durability feats does tsunade neck have is all I'll ask you 

Feel free to provide such


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Because he cut his gut . At that angle . What durability feats does tsunade neck have is all I'll ask you
> 
> Feel free to provide such



Her neck has never been hit so how would I know. What i do know is the same skin covering her neck tanked the same attack that ran right through a Chokeijugan enhanced Iwa Golem + War Arc Gaara Karura Sand Defence combination. 

Besides, Kabuto hit her lungs with Chakra Scalpel (which would have killed/negged a normal person) and Tsunade was more or less fine. And that was when she was rusty and didn't have Byakugo activated. If Tobirama can cut someone's head off so easily why didn't he do that to Izuna or Juubito?

Did you open and read the link in my post?


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

There is more muscle and more skin on her tummy than her neck . Again if I stab ur neck it could go through and through , doesn't mean if I try to do the same through ur gut that my hand going to come out the other side 

Juubito first off shits on tsunade in every aspect . 

Izuna was killed last I remember and his neck wasn't aimed 

Didn't open it . Didn't need to . because end of the day , claiming immunity to having her neck sliced is bull 

When we got Hidan who has tanked shit loads and shikamaru could still take his neck off 

Hidan would tank everything tsunade has tanked . Yet can loose his head to shikamaru


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Didn't open it . Didn't need to . because end of the day , claiming immunity to having her neck sliced is bull



You don't even know what was in the link because you didn't open it. Open it and then we can talk.



Icegaze said:


> claiming immunity to having her neck sliced is bull



Tobirama is faster than Hashirama. I guess Tobirama can beat him since Hashirama isn't immune to having his neck cut off and doesn't have the skills to react and put up a defence like maybe Madara would be able to with precog and Susanoo


via Icegaze logic: Tobirama > Hashirama confirmed.

Are you happy now?



Icegaze said:


> _
> Izuna was killed last I remember _and *his neck wasn't aimed*


*
But you are assuming he'll aim for Tsunade's neck, *knowing she can survive decapitation anyway.
*Why is that?*

_Izuna didn't die instantly. Madara took him home and he died there after handing over his eyes. Also, Tsunade is more durable than Izuna, has Chakra Enhanced Strength, has good reflexes, has Shosen, has Sozo Saisei and has byakugo so I don't know where you are going with this._

@EVERYONE


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

It also depends on the Fight factors. For example, with full knowledge from up close, I can see her beating Kakuzu, but at far with none, I see her losing.

@ Izaya She cannot survive Decapitation from what has been shown, and even if she did show it, Tobirama would still aim for the head > any other part of the body if given an open shot because logic.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru I'll reply to you later, I have another fish to fry.



Icegaze said:


> Atsugi is shit is a weak argument
> 
> I could just say 1 yasaka bead is shit. that's why tsunade tanked it.
> 
> it didn't touch kakashi, it was clearly stated he avoided it. Aaah how fandom turns people into tards



Please show me where it was _clearly_ stated that Kakashi was never even touched by Atsugai. Because before its used, he's wearing his flak jacket and headband, and afterwards he isn't. It looked to me like they were destroyed/blown away, especially given that his mask is ripped [1]. He was also in mid-air when it attacked him, and the last time I checked Kakashi didn't have the ability to move in mid-air like Hachimon Gai. Furthermore, look how big the blast is; since when could Beginning of Shippuden Kakashi dodge attacks of that scale without Kamui?

You're calling me a tard before you even considered the circumstances of that clash. A bit ironic, don't you think?



> tsunade has no feats of tanking a slash to the head. which is my point



She took a Magatama to the chest and her skin wasn't cut. Why should her head/neck skin be significantly less durable?



> if someone stabs my neck with a 4 inch blade it could go through and through, doesn't mean someone doing that with the same force will run through my abdomen and come out the other side
> 
> there is zero evidence kusanagi wont run through her neck, considering it ran through her chest casually
> 
> there is zero evidence hirashingiri wont run through her neck either



Orochimaru's Kusanagi was cited as an extraordinary blade with exceptional cutting power. Hiraishingiri uses a kunai, and is wielded by someone with no extraordinary physical strength.​​


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> You don't even know what was in the link because you didn't open it. Open it and then we can talk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Healing a small slit on her neck means that she's immune to decapitation now?


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

If people really want to go that route--kunai or sword to the brain. There are several non-Rikudou Tier characters that I believe could accomplish this feat just as well as decapitation. Decapitation is not necessary before Byakugō no Jutsu is activated.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Tsunade would have opted for Sōzō Saisei before Orochimaru or Tobirama ever accomplished it.

Plus, Edo Tensei can _“die”_ as they would prior to death until they regenerate (as could be seen with Sai’s brother, Haku, Zabuza, and Madara), so Tobirama continuing to cast Jutsu even before Edo Tensei had started to regenerate him would indicate that injuries of that nature are not exceptions to the rule that Senju/Uzumaki take significantly longer to actually succumb to injuries that would otherwise hastily kill someone.

That means if they don't hit the diamond mark itself Tsunade'd simply activate Sōzō Saisei when it happened, and at that point she'd simply regrow whatever parts they targeted.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

@flaming no feats to suggest what you claiming 

If it was so easy why didn't tsunade just grow a new bottom half or heal casually when split ?

If the excuse is out of chakra then tobirama keeps cutting her down till she runs out 

She isn't touching someone who has marked her with hirashin 

The guy can play the coward and run off . The clones can benefit from the mark on her 

And exhaust her while tobirama keeps himself safe from harm


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> If it was so easy why didn't tsunade just grow a new bottom half or heal casually when split ?



Chakra, since she was primarily concerned with the other Kage and turned old before she even finished healing them.



> If the excuse is out of chakra then tobirama



It's not an excuse, it's a reason. On that should have been obvious.

I'm addressing the _"kunai to the brain"_ thing. Whether Tobirama can beat her or not is another question.


----------



## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade would have opted for Sōzō Saisei before Orochimaru or Tobirama ever accomplished it.




She's never activated Sōzō Saisei _before_ receiving damage IC as far as I can remember. I think there are certain characters who could cause lethal injury to Tsunade before she opted to do anything (Orochimaru is not someone who I would consider one of those people, BTW).




> Plus, Edo Tensei can _“die”_ as they would prior to death until they regenerate (as could be seen with Sai’s brother, Haku, Zabuza, and Madara), so Tobirama continuing to cast Jutsu even before Edo Tensei had started to regenerate him would indicate that injuries of that nature are not exceptions to the rule that Senju/Uzumaki take significantly longer to actually succumb to injuries that would otherwise hastily kill someone.
> 
> That means if they don't hit the diamond mark itself Tsunade'd simply activate Sōzō Saisei when it happened, and at that point she'd simply regrow whatever parts they targeted.




Edo Tensei don't experience pain.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Depends on what part of her brain is damaged or how damaged it is, she can't activate Sozo Saisei if she can't operate normally.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Saru said:


> She's never activated Sōzō Saisei _before_ receiving damage IC as far as I can remember. I think there are certain characters who could cause lethal injury to Tsunade before she opted to do anything.



If she knows how dangerous they are at the start I don't see why she wouldn't.

When she actually decided to go on the offensive against Madara she activated it _before_ she went at him. Prior to that it wasn't warranted because she was initially going to play the role of mystical healing Chakra-battery.



> (Orochimaru is not someone who I would consider one of those people, BTW).



My bad. I assumed since he was one of the ones being talked about you were including him.



> Edo Tensei don't experience pain.



Pain is nothing but a signal of injury, so that's inconsequential. What matters is whether the injury shut them down until they regenerated or they were able to keep going.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Healing a small slit on her neck means that she's immune to decapitation now?



Who told you it was a small slit? You just wanna assume that because misogyny.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

You can tell it's small by looking at it.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Who told you it was a small slit? You just wanna assume that because misogyny.



Is there something genuinely wrong with you mate?


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Wow kid you sound retarded



How old are you? You call me a kid. I'm 17. So what are you? 42 years old and arguing with 17 year old boys over fiction? Lol. Interesting life you got there.



> U bring up hashirama and a fly like tsunade in the same sentence


Misogyny. Since when was Jiraiya's equal a fly? But i'd figured you'd say that. Chauvinistic fool.


> Soz mate , that level of logic is too stupid to comprehend


I'm not your mate. And your logic is stupid and anti-feminist.


> He won't aim for her neck the first time . But after that why not . He would have just seen her heal


Do I fucking care? Shounen doesnt work like that. Orochimaru had 2 chances to cut off Tsunade's head but did he? Why're assuming this. A decapitation has only happened twice in the manga. It is not common to happen or easy to achieve. Hidan was standing still due to Kagemane and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Kisame


 Zetsu was standing still trying to pull of an A Rank tech against 2 of the manga's fastest characters. Tsunade has eyes and will be moving around. This man is her fucking great uncle. She knows what he is capable of and will take the necessary measures to avoid losing the fight, as anyone would do. Tobirama didnt cut off Izuna's head or Juubito's head so i'm not gonna assume he does it to only Tsunade just because misogyny.


> And she is marked after the first exchange


.
You're assuming he'll be able to mark her. Remember her reflexes and self awareness? Plus the minute Tobirama gets close to her she'll smash his head into the fucking concrete or summon Katsuyu on top of him. IIRC Tobirama needed help to land a mark on Juubito. If i'm wrong then bring me a scan and I'll concede the statement I just made.





> Considering he could manueveur around SM madara with 1 kunai in hand  , therefore she ain't reacting or dodging him when marked


All I can say is Tsunade will use terrain manipulation to her advantage. I'm not explaining this to you as I'm assuming you are intelligent, have read the manga and have common sense so read this if you want to know more about it. If not, ignore it at your own peril and I'll just dismiss your entire argument if you do decide to take that "ignorance is bliss" route. I won't even blame you lol.


> considering juubito barely could once he was marked




> U bring up hashirama and a fly like tsunade in the same sentence


U bring up Juubi Jinchurikis and a wasp like tobirama in the same sentence

Don't come back to me with "well Tobi marked them" because Tsunade's medical techs were compared to Hashi's so ....

And also, Tobirama is faster than Hashi and logically according to you should aim for his head, Hashirama's regeneration < Tsunade's regeneration which you say can't counter a decapitation + her neck cant tank so therefore Tobirama, according to you, should be able to kill Hashirama?
Don't dismiss my point by calling Tsunade a fly because you just sound more misogynistic when you do that - its not a good look for you, old man. My argument is so good you want me to dismiss it, but I won't. I'm awaiting your answer to this analogy.


> When u figure that out come back to me and talk


When you answer my Hashirama analogy and learn to stop throwing common sense out the window every time characters like Tobirama, Raikage or Itachi are involved, then come back to me and talk.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Kakuzu can't beat any form of Tsunade. He hasnt got the power to put her down nor the stamina to outlast her.


Jiongu can pluck out her anatomy, and Gian can split her dome. She has nothing to combat all the elementals, and he has his own super strength/durability with Domu. Both can win under different circumstances.



> Kakuzu is weaker than  Kisame. How can someone weaker than Kisame defeat a Sannin?


Kisame has his own chances at beating 2/3 Sannin himself, and A>B>C logic is laughable.


> It just wouldn't make sense. Tsunade is on the same tier as Itachi yet Kakuzu can beat her. She doesn't need knowledge factor to spray Katsuyu Acid all over Kakuzu.


Tsunade is not the same level as Itachi

Kakuzu could just counter with Katon Fuuton, or KFC.



> The scan I posted plus the hype statements show she can.  And Tobirama didn't aim for Izuna's neck so again what the fuck are you talking about?
> ___


that's cool, guess it's pretty relevant then that Izuna isn't a healer who can regen from moderate and severe wounds.

Kakashi went for Kakuzu's heart without knowledge, and learned from this and immediately went for a head snipe vs Deva. Stahp.



> Tsunade is too underrated. Anytime she is concerned logic is thrown out the window. Tobirama aims for her head but not for Izuna. And another example is an Itachi vs Tsunade thread ages ago. Someone said "he Genjutsus her and rips her spinal cord out". What is the fucking meaning of that?


Not at all.

Itachi can genjutsu her, and then kill her when her chakra is disrupted. that's irrelevant to this discussion though.



> Every Tsunade thread devolves into marginalising her abilities while inflating her opponents' and I've been down that road enough times to know it's not worth going down.


K, cool. this is just your opinion because you like her character and think Oro/Tsunade are stronger than they are.



> Example:
> Tsunade vs Itachi
> People take away Yin Seal by saying it can't get her out of Genjutsu when evidence shows it can
> And some how Itachi using his bare hands pulls out her spinal cord which she showed she can regenerate when  she fought madara but people take it away to give Itachi the win
> That's an example


3 tomoe Itachi can beat Tsunade by genjutsu and Mortal wound, but he also has chances of losing.

MS Itachi white washes Tsunade because he has perfect counters in MS.


> Tsunade vs Tobirama
> People take away Byakugou and say it can't regenerate decapitation when evidence shows it can


No it can't. Tsunade's body can't communicate, think, or properly propogate high class jutsu when her head is completely seperated, her CNS is shut down, and her brain cells begin to immediately die in a state where Bya is not active.

None of her feats or hype suggest this.



> And now Tobirama aims for Tsunade neck even though he didn't do this to Izuna who arguably Is more dangerous if not for his power level then for his eye hax and Tobirama didn't aim for any JJ's head yet he does for Tsunade


Once again, Izuna is not a world class healer who tobirama would see that normal wounds aren't going to work.

______



> Hashirama is slower than Tobirama
> Hashirama's regeneration is not pat with Byakugou which you say can't save the user from a decapitation


Hashirama isn't that uch slower than tobirama, and Hashi's Regen is >= Byakugo from direct comparison via Madara. Just having his cells gives you regen


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Is there something genuinely wrong with you mate?


Your the one that thinks Itachi is stronger than Kaguya so I think you need to take a good long look at yourself. And can you and Icegaze stop calling me mate? I don't even know you lol! Don't address me like that. Ever. 
[sp][/sp]


FlamingRain said:


> You can tell it's small by looking at it.


Nice try. The wound was a deep cut that was regenerating and the wound was closing. I can easily say that. You can't prove your claim any more than I can prove mine. Based on the hype of Mabui's Jutsu i'm assuming it was more than a slit. A small slit is not life threatening.

Dr. White I'll reply to you now.


----------



## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Well, Hashirama has Sage Mode, so he'd probably be good if Tobirama tried to Hiraishin blitz him (just like Madara was). Tsunade doesn't have Sage Mode.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, Hashirama has Sage Mode, so he'd probably be good if Tobirama tried to Hiraishin blitz him (just like Madara was). Tsunade doesn't have Sage Mode.



Okay. Imagine he's in base then.

And this is Hashirama, not A or Minato so be careful.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> The wound was a deep cut that was regenerating and the wound was closing. I can easily say that.



We saw the wound on the panel before it started regenerating.



> Based on the hype of Mabui's Jutsu i'm assuming it was more than a slit. A small slit is not life threatening.



That's simply a testament to how tough Tsunade's body is, because she herself said she didn't receive bad wounds.


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Your the one that thinks Itachi is stronger than Kaguya so I think you need to take a good long look at yourself. And can you and Icegaze stop calling me mate? I don't even know you lol! Don't address me like that. Ever.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Tsunade destroys Kakuzu 10 times out of 5.

She has tanked, endured and regenerated from attacks with way more power than anything Kakuzu has shown to be able to use and than anything that he may be able to use.

She is as fast as Kakuzu, faster with her seal, and way stronger.

Kakuzu's only way of winning would be keeping his distance, but he has no way to do so, Tsunade is faster with her seal and Kakuzu's elemental attacks can't even slow her down.

Not to mention that she can summon Katsuyu...

Tsunade and 4th Raikage are, imo, meant to be equal overall:

-Speed: Raikage >>> Tsunade
-Strenght: Tsunade >> Raikage
-Durability: Raikage > Tsunade
-Endurace/Regeneration: Tsunade >>> Raikage
-Taijutsu: Raikage=Tsunade

Raikage is faster, can tank a little more and use his lighting to cut the things he can't smash.
Tsunade can endure more and regen from almost anything, and even when she isn't as fast, she just need a single punch to destroy things that would tank several punch of the Raikage.

A single punch of Tsunade would severely injure Kakuzu, he can't survive more than 3 for sure.

As for the most powerful ninja she could defeat... Kisame maybe.

Imo Kisame vs Tsunade ends with each winning 5 times out of 10.


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Kakuzu could defeat Tsunade with Jiongu or Raiton: Gian.

In terms of Taijutsu skill Raikage & Tsunade may be equal but Raikage's Taijutsu ends up being better because of his speed.


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

I think Tsunade could beat Kakuzu pretty handily. She could probably hulk out of his Jiongu and punch him through Domu, and his masks wouldn't be able to seriously injure her, especially with Katsuyu on the field.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Okay. Imagine he's in base then.
> 
> And this is Hashirama, not A or Minato so be careful.




Tobirama would probably never get the chance in the first place with Hashirama's Wood spam, and Hashirama can enter Sage Mode instantly... So starting in base doesn't really change things.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Jiongu can pluck out her anatomy,


Just like the guy who said Itachi can rip out her spinal cord with a teaspoon lol cos hes that strong

SMH

Kakuzu didn't achieve this on the opponents he fought, all of whom are weaker than Mei let alone a fucking Sannin


> and Gian can split her dome.


What dome? What are you referring to?
And anyway, people slower than her dodged Gian.
This whole thread sis just becoming one great big misogynistic essay. I'm upset I ever made this. You'd never assume people slower than her could get hit.


> She has nothing to combat all the elementals, and he has his own super strength/durability with Domu. Both can win under different circumstances.


Kakashi tanked Atsugai. Tsunade eats it for breakfast.
Shikamaru outran Zukoku. Tsunade is faster and smarter.
Kakuzu is strong. But I dont give a darn. Tsunade is stronger. Domu is Doton. Ranshinsho is Raiton.
Gian was dodged by Shika. Tsunade is faster.

Now ive done my bit. How about you tell me how Kakuzu deals with Zesshi Nensan. 



> Kisame has his own chances at beating 2/3 Sannin himself, and A>B>C logic is laughable.


I didn't use ABC logic. 
Kisame just said he was weaker than Jiraiya and portrayed himself as weaker than Oro. Therefore Kisame < Sannin.


> Tsunade is not the same level as Itachi


No maybe she's higher. Since Hebi Sasuke isn't beating her   . Itachi said hed staemate Jiraiya and a Prime Orochimaru has a chance of killing Itachi so Tsunade is his level. Anyway you're a known wanker so i dont care what you think about Itachi. I know you cant gauge his power properly anyway. Only people like me that dont wank him are able to do that. This is about Tobirama so after this Kakuzu/Itachi debate were not talking about them anymore.


> Kakuzu could just counter with Katon Fuuton, or KFC.


He counters one blast. Then Katsuyu fires another during the masks' cooldown period.


> that's cool, guess it's pretty relevant then that Izuna isn't a healer who can regen from moderate and severe wounds.


Izuna didnt die on the battlefield and Tobirama knew he was a threat.


> *
> Kakashi went for Kakuzu's heart without knowledge, *and learned from this and immediately went for a head snipe vs Deva. Stahp.


Tsunade will do the same to Kakuzu.
Tobirama isn't slicing her head off with a Kunai. Kusanagi and CES says so.


> Not at all.
> 
> Itachi can genjutsu her, and then kill her when her chakra is disrupted. that's irrelevant to this discussion though.


So you believe Itachi can gen her and rip her spinal cord out w/e the f*ck thats supposed to mean?
No. Yin Seal gets her out. All she needs is a simple thought process to open it. And besides, Itachi wasnt able to kill Orochimaru based on what we saw so wtf are u tlkn about?


> K, cool. this is just your opinion because you like her character and think Oro/Tsunade are stronger than they are.



Double standard. You're doing the same thing with Itachi was we speak.

Itachi is slightly stronger than Tsunade who is slightly stronger than Orochimaru who is slightly stronger than Jiraiya who based on mach up can beat Itahci. They are all in the High Kage tier. If I was overrating them I''d be saying they have a shot at Nagato becaysewhat he said about Jiraiya gives me the right to assume Tsunade w/ full knowledge can defeat Pein Rikudo.



> 3 tomoe Itachi can beat Tsunade by genjutsu and Mortal wound, but he also has chances of losing.


Yes he does. So why dont you consider that before fapping? That goes for everyone on this forum.


> MS Itachi white washes Tsunade because he has perfect counters in MS.


She breaks Susanoo. If Yata covers she uses Tsutenkyaku to manipulate the terrain in her favour. She dodges Totsuka (it only hit immobile and/or blind opponents so im not giving him the benefit of the doubt) and Yin Seals Genjutsu. Amaterasu is the only problem. It could kill her, or Tsunade might kill him before it gets out. Either way they have an equal chance of winning. Itachi cant whitewash someone on the same tier as him. Can Hashirama whitewash Madara? No. Can Kisame whitewash Killer B? No. Just because he got lucky (ie the context under which he achieved these feats) against a nerfed (e.g. no jutsus, armless in terms of soul, needs a body transfer so is sick) Orochimaru that doesnt equate to Itachi being Madara level cos thats the level you need to be to whitewash a Sannin. 



> No it can't. Tsunade's body can't communicate, think, or properly propogate high class jutsu when her head is completely seperated, her CNS is shut down, and her brain cells begin to immediately die in a state where Bya is not active.


Sasuke shouldnt be able to either however he can still think well enough to cancel out a Genjutsu with Sharingan. If you know you are in a genjutsu you can counter and Tsunade is a very self aware person who studied and mastered all areas of medicine (remember how she spotted everything that was going on inside Orochimaru's body just by looking at him?) so Im not giving itachi the benefit of the doubt. This woman won the 2nd ninja world war for konoha (according to Master Jiraiya) so I'm not gonna throw logic out the window just because Itachi's your favourite character. 


> None of her feats or hype suggest this.



*Spoiler*: _And none of Itachi's feats or hype suggest he can neg someone of Jiraiya's level_ 









> Once again, Izuna is not a world class healer who tobirama would see that normal wounds aren't going to work.


Obito has Hashirama's healing. Tobirama didn't go for his head. So he;s not going for Tsunade's either.



> Hashirama isn't that uch slower than tobirama, and Hashi's Regen is >= Byakugo from direct comparison via Madara. Just having his cells gives you regen


Madara compared the fact they both were seal-less healing techs, he never said Hashi's was better - Hashi's cant regenerate limbs as we saw with Madara. Tsunade's byakugo can regenerate limbs. And I don't care about Hashi's speed. Juubi Jins are way faster and Tobirama tagged them. He tags Hashi and should go for his head according to you. So can Tobirama kill Hashirama in a fight? Answer me please.



Saru said:


> I think Tsunade could beat Kakuzu pretty handily. She could probably hulk out of his Jiongu and punch him through Domu.


Exactly. So @Dr. White you can stop fapping now. Its getting boring.





> Tobirama would probably never get the chance in the first place with Hashirama's Wood spam, and Hashirama can enter Sage Mode instantly... So starting in base doesn't really change things.


Do I look like i care lol? Hashi used SM when he was pressured by  VOTE Madz. He wont take that caution against a leech like Tobirama, cos thats what he is in comparison. Tobirama = Izuna =< MS Madara < EMS Madara w/o PS < EMS Madara w/ PS < VOTE Madara = VOTE Hashirama. 

I dont care about all that. All I know is Tobi can tag him since he marked faster people like JJ Obito. So can he behead and kill Hashirama? Yes or no. Answer the question and stop dodging it because you all know its a perfect reason as to why Tobi isnt beating the poor woman you all seem to hate on.

@Everyone.
Tobirama is a clown who got killed by Kumogakure fodders and you wanna tell me he can beat the woman that won the second world war for Konoha. Bitch please. Get out of my face.



> The First Shinobi World War (第一次忍界大戦, Daiichiji Ninkai Taisen), or simply the Shinobi World War (忍界大戦, Ninkai Taisen), was the first of the great wars that involved the majority of shinobi villages and countries. There are few reliable surviving records of this war, but the experiences of this war *led to the birth *of the tactics that still form the cornerstone of warfare. It ended with an armistice treaty, but only after all of the Five Great Nations had been seriously damaged.[1] Even then, the peace only lasted another twenty years until the Second Shinobi World War erupted.



Based on this 1ST war was easier so Tobirama is a leech and a clown.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> How old are you? You call me a kid. I'm 17. So what are you? 42 years old and arguing with 17 year old boys over fiction? Lol. Interesting life you got there.
> 
> 
> Misogyny. Since when was Jiraiya's equal a fly? But i'd figured you'd say that. Chauvinistic fool.
> ...



Loll 

Tsunade looses her head . Feel free to poll it . Arguing with u is pointless


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Yoo this dude is legit crazy, he doesn't even understand half the arguments he's responding too  

You win Izaya, I see the errors in my ways. How could I have been so fraught with lies


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Shikamaru who is slower dodged Gian and Jiongu < Ranshinsho and CES by logic.
> Its quite sad really how everyone ITT is being misogynistic.
> _
> Raikage < Tsunade get over it and concede. Katsuyu GG. Dont care about Hachibi. A needed help_ to *seal* it he didnt kill it in a 1 on 1 fight.




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakuzu could defeat Tsunade with Jiongu or Raiton: Gian.
> 
> In terms of Taijutsu skill Raikage & Tsunade may be equal but Raikage's Taijutsu ends up being better because of his speed.



Attacks that could take out Zombie duo saga Kakashi?

Tsunade endured a teleportation it was supposed to destroy anyone ot named A, and she punched and deflected katons from Madara with minot injures.

Madara's most basic katon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu's elemental attacks.

Tsunade should be able to slowly walk through Kakuzu's elemental attacks and end up with just some minor injures.

And as for the combination of elements, they should still at most just be on par with Madara's mid level Katons, which Tsunade deflected with his bare hands.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Tsunade destroys Kakuzu 10 times out of 5.
> 
> She has tanked, endured and regenerated from attacks with way more power than anything Kakuzu has shown to be able to use and than anything that he may be able to use.
> 
> ...



Correct.



Zuhaitz said:


> *Attacks that could take out Zombie duo saga Kakashi?
> 
> Tsunade endured a teleportation it was supposed to destroy anyone ot named A, and she punched and deflected katons from Madara with minot injures.*
> 
> ...



So i'm not the only non-wanker here? Thank god i'm not alone here.

Its just these people missed those parts of the manga and just read the parrts where they thought Itachi was gonna take off his shirt or unzip his pants and pull it out.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Attacks that could take out Zombie duo saga Kakashi?
> 
> Tsunade endured a teleportation it was supposed to destroy anyone ot named A, and she punched and deflected katons from Madara with minot injures.
> 
> ...



You're oversimplifying things. Gian is a penetrative attack, it doesn't have the same properties as Madara's Katon. Kakuzu could take Tsunade's head or neck with it.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You're oversimplifying things. Gian is a penetrative attack, it doesn't have the same properties as Madara's Katon. Kakuzu could take Tsunade's head or neck with it.



How do you know that it has penetretive powers?

Not all raitons have them.

And even if it had, are you saying that Kakuzu's C rated raiton has better speed and penetrative power than Madara's Susanoo's sowrds?

Tsunade partially dodged and endured several of those swords while fighting 5 clones of Madara.

Some shit level raiton isn't gonna hit her.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> *Spoiler*: __


He dodged it later on. He was running and he used that water scroll. If that was anime only then i apologise deeply but go check again anyway.

Besides, Kakashi intercepted it so Tsunade still dodges it. How can a bolt of lightning even be relevant to someone with Byakugo who uses A Rank Raiton techs herself?



Itachі said:


> You're oversimplifying things. Gian is a penetrative attack, it doesn't have the same properties as Madara's Katon. Kakuzu could take Tsunade's head or neck with it.



Again here we go with the head and neck. Wh didnt Kakuzu do it then? Show me 3 things
1) Gian's cutting feats
2) Why Tsuna cant dodge it
3) Why Gian is even relevant to the woman who tanked Madara's Katons and C-S-f*cking-T aka Chou Shinra Tensei. Her durabiltiy is village level. She survived bisection and the disconnection of her spinal cord. She can beat people (like Kisame) who can beat the people (aka Team 10/7) than can beat Kakuzu so whats the point in this debate?



Zuhaitz said:


> How do you know that it has penetretive powers?
> 
> Not all raitons have them.


He doesn't know. He;s just assuming even CE Neji could cut Tsunade in half with a pencil just cos shes a woman.


> And even if it had,


Which it doesn't



> are you saying that Kakuzu's C rated raiton has better speed and penetrative power than Madara's Susanoo's sowrds?
> 
> Tsunade partially dodged and endured several of those swords while fighting 5 clones of Madara.
> 
> Some shit level raiton isn't gonna hit her.


Same thing I said. Misogyny is just poisonous.


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

That was the anime 

Cute when someone argues and doesn't even know that was an anime feat 

Shikamaru never avoided gian


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> How do you know that it has penetretive powers?
> 
> Not all raitons have them.
> 
> ...



The databook says Gian pierces easily though rock and is comparable to a spear. It also kinda neutralized Raikiri's.

Not sure what you're madara example proves, as they easily pierced her. She didn't dogde them either, or make a last second move to avoid decapitation. Madara just never attempted it.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

That was the anime 

Cute when someone argues and doesn't even know that was an anime feat 

Shikamaru never avoided gian


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> That was the anime
> 
> Cute when someone argues and doesn't even know that was an anime feat
> 
> Shikamaru never avoided gian



I already apologised to @Itachi so don't stick the knife in. You're the guy who can't tell the difference between Susanoo and a Gunbai powered jutsu. Remember that library thread? Yeah. And at least I admit my mistakes. 

And I don't care about that deer headed shadow user anyway. Shikamaru is trash to Tsunade and honestly, so is Kakuzu.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> How do you know that it has penetretive powers?
> 
> Not all raitons have them.
> 
> ...





> Lightning Release: False Darkness* (雷遁・偽暗, Raiton: Gian)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Kakuzu
> 
> ...



Tsunade was pierced multiple times by Susano'o swords so I don't know why you're bringing that up. She didn't deflect them. Bringing rank into this also is oversimplifying stuff. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> He dodged it later on. He was running and he used that water scroll. If that was anime only then i apologise deeply but go check again anyway.
> 
> It was in the Anime.
> 
> ...



Wait, so you're telling me that Tsunade can outright tank Gian to the face? She can dodge it outright but Kakuzu doesn't have to use it by itself, he has other Jutsu to pressure her with.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> The databook says Gian pierces easily though rock and is comparable to a spear. It also kinda neutralized Raikiri's.
> 
> Not sure what you're madara example proves, as they easily pierced her. She didn't dogde them either, or make a last second move to avoid decapitation. Madara just never attempted it.



Databook says Tsunade can regen from any injure. Do we take the databook as canon material?

And Madara was trying to kill the Kages, and Tsunade dealed with 5 clones, which only were able to hit her in non lethal palces, and she endured it.

Also Tsunade has her own raitons to block Gian, depending on the relative power of both techniques, I guess.

Gian's speed was easily surpassed by Zombie duo saga Kakashi, and even Shikamaru reacted to it and was ready to defend against it. Tsunade's speed using the seal should be above Kakashi's in that moment, and way over Shikamaru's.

Gian's real power is unknown to us and nothing suggest it to be above something Tsunade can tank considering that she has some great tanking/enduring feats.

And the combination of those points would suggest that she at very very very least should be able to dodge it partially and regen from the injures as if nothing had happen.

Tsunade can tank any explosive attack of Kakuzu, we don't know the power of Gian and even if it was dangerous, which I doubt, that would be the only real thing that should worry Tsunade and so she can dodge it with easy as she can tank the rest.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I already apologised to @Itachi so don't stick the knife in. You're the guy who can't tell the difference between Susanoo and a Gunbai powered jutsu. Remember that library thread? Yeah. And at least I admit my mistakes.
> 
> And I don't care about that deer headed shadow user anyway. Shikamaru is trash to Tsunade and honestly, so is Kakuzu.



Poll tsunade ability to tank a sword to the neck 

Let's see if u admit your mistakes 

I'll wait


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Poll tsunade ability to tank a sword to the neck
> 
> Let's see if u admit your mistakes
> 
> I'll wait



A poll... you keep using the popularity fallacy as a valid way to reach conclusions....


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Tsunade was pierced multiple times by Susano'o swords so I don't know why you're bringing that up. She didn't deflect them. Bringing rank into this also is oversimplifying stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, so you're telling me that Tsunade can outright tank Gian to the face? She can dodge it outright but Kakuzu doesn't have to use it by itself, he has other Jutsu to pressure her with.


Don't care. She dodged it. All Kakuzuz other techs are irrelevant here.



Zuhaitz said:


> *Databook says Tsunade can regen from any injure. Do we take the databook as canon material?*
> 
> And Madara was trying to kill the Kages, and Tsunade dealed with 5 clones, which only were able to hit her in non lethal palces, and she endured it.
> 
> ...



Exactly. If Tsunade says and shows in canon manga she can survive any injury people dismiss it yet accept a databook fact when we know databook is usually inaccurate

This misogyny is making me lose my sanity


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Poll tsunade ability to tank a sword to the neck
> 
> Let's see if u admit your mistakes
> 
> I'll wait



Who do you think you are?

Most people think Yata can tank PS Sword. Most people think Itachi can neg a full power Sannin. Most people think Itachi is stronger than Kaguya. Does that mean they're right and i'm wrong? Itachi is the most liked character so a poll wouldnt work with him.



Zuhaitz said:


> A poll... you keep using the popularity fallacy as a valid way to reach conclusions....



Exactly. I know most people dont agree with me on this anyway but most people think Itachi can neg Prime Oro. I don't think he can. I follow the manga not the crowds. @Itachi Thats why im not making a poll - if i do it will be on my terms.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

What's Tsunade's supposed speed compared to the following characters?
Zombie duo saga:
-Kakashi
-Shikamaru
-Naruto
-Yamato

War arc:
-Raikage
-Madara
-Chouji


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Don't care. She dodged it. All Kakuzuz other techs are irrelevant here.



That's right man, Kakuzu's Jutsu are 100% useless in the face of Tsunade.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> What's Tsunade's supposed speed compared to the following characters?
> Zombie duo saga:
> -Kakashi
> -Shikamaru
> ...



Faster than Kakashi
Faster than Shika
Faster than Naruto
Faster than Yamato
Slower than Raikage
Slower than Madara or maybe equal i dunno
Faster than Chouji


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Could you even prove that she's faster than Wind Arc Kakashi?


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's right man, Kakuzu's Jutsu are 100% useless in the face of Tsunade.


Correct.

She tanked katons from the WSKU (World's strongest Katon user)
Kakashi tanked Atsugai so i dont know what its meant to do to Tsunade
Gian wont hit but even if it did Byakugo says hi. Question: Is Raiton: Gian > Orochimaru's Kusanagi?
Domu is good but Tsunade lifted bunta's sword and has strength comparable to War Arc Sakura and can counter Doton with Raiton and hit two birds with one stone if she uses ranshinsho

So yes, you are correct.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Could you even prove that she's faster than Wind Arc Kakashi?


Yes I f*cking can.

She tanked CST and on low chakra and lots of damage, yet still arrived to site of Pein vs Naruto before the ANBU did.
She used her super jump to get above Bijuu sized summons in all but seconds while holding Gamabunta's sword.
With the same super jump she closed a distance so quickly that Madara couldnt dodge and only had the choice to put up V1 Ribcage.
Her Shunshin while rusty, is so good that she protected Naruto from Kusanagi at point blank when she was in a bad position (she was lying down with her head facing Oro) and in the same position kicked Oro when her hemophobia stopped
Her Shushin was so good she got, up, moved behind kabuto and attacked him mid sentence

I wont stop you from wanking Kakashi honsetly if you want to, but yeah, I think her feats show she is faster.
PS: I'll use objectivity in all my debates but if anyone else wants to be subjective then don't debate with me. Thats all I wanna say outside of the on topic argument here.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Could you even prove that she's faster than Wind Arc Kakashi?



Is wind arc Kakashi able to compete with Susanoo in speed? Honest question.

Even Sasuke and Itachi's Susanoo were way to fast for Orochimaru and Danzou for example...


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Is wind arc Kakashi able to compete with Susanoo in speed? Honest question.
> 
> Even Sasuke and Itachi's Susanoo were way to fast for Orochimaru and Danzou for example...



Exactly. Yet Tsunade kept up with a stronger Susanoo from a faster Uchiha. Madara's V1 and 5 of his V3 clones.

Regardless of the sh*tstorm this is  an entertaining debate so thank you Icegaze and Itachi. And thanks to Zuhaitz for backing me. Saru, you join in as well lol. The more the merrier.


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Kakashi's feat of countering Raiton: Gian is better than any of those examples, interception isn't hard.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Correct.
> 
> She tanked katons from the WSKU (World's strongest Katon user)
> Kakashi tanked Atsugai so i dont know what its meant to do to Tsunade
> ...



Did she tank Madara's largest Katon?

Atsugai isn't doing shit, it just pushes her back.

Yes, I believe that Raiton: Gian is superior to Orochimaru's Kusanagi. Each bolt was equal to Kakashi's Raikiri. Do you think Tsunade can regenerate with half of her head missing?

I agree with you on this point.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Did she tank Madara's largest Katon?


Doesn't matter. The Katon she tanked isnt one Shikamaru can outrun like Kakuzu's Zukoku.


> Atsugai isn't doing shit, it just pushes her back.


Barely lol.





> Yes, I believe that Raiton: Gian is superior to Orochimaru's Kusanagi. Each bolt was equal to Kakashi's Raikiri. Do you think Tsunade can regenerate with half of her head missing?


Kusanagi cut the same staff that evocted Kurama from Konoha so let me give you a chance to rethink then ask you again. Do you think Raiton: Gian is > Orochimaru's Kusanagi. Or answer this
Can Gian push 100% Kyuubi out of Konoha or send KN4 flying through a forest?



> I agree with you on this point.


Good.

Look Kakuzu is great and all that but don't mention him in the same sentence as a Sannin you're just making Kakuzu look bad by allowing me to unpick his arsenal and degrade it to dust.

[sp=Now respond to this. Do you agree? If not, let me hear the criticism]





IzayaOrihara said:


> YOU: Originally Posted by Itachі
> Could you even prove that she's faster than Wind Arc Kakashi?
> 
> 
> ...


[/sp]


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakashi's feat of countering Raiton: Gian is better than any of those examples, interception isn't hard.
> 
> Did she tank Madara's largest Katon?
> 
> ...



That's a fallacy. You don't know how fast Gian was. 

When they re materialized after the teleportation Tsunade and the Raikage attacked Madara and Muu as fast as the other. As I doubt that the Raikage slowed down for Tsunade, Tsunade must have done an insane jump almost as fast as the Raikage.

She endured some mid level Katons from Madara, which by powerscalling should be more powerful than any non combination elemental attack of Kakuzu.

If Madara's katons can't push back Tsunade...

No, each bolt wasn't equal to a Raikiri, the raikiri stopped the gian by overpowering it, and then Kakashi stopped the raikiri. Raikiri >>> Gian


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## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Doesn't matter. The Katon she tanked isnt one Shikamaru can outrun like Kakuzu's Zukoku.



And how has that got anything to do with it? Madara did not use his strongest Katon on her iirc.



> Barely lol.



Does Tsunade weight 1000 kg? She could be able to use Chakra to the feet method to counter it with knowledge though.



> Kusanagi cut the same staff that evocted Kurama from Konoha so let me give you a chance to rethink then ask you again. Do you think Raiton: Gian is > Orochimaru's Kusanagi. Or answer this
> Can Gian push 100% Kyuubi out of Konoha or send KN4 flying through a forest?



Kusanagi never cut Enma to my knowledge, gimme panels.



> Good.
> 
> [sp=Now respond to this. Do you agree? If not, let me hear the criticism][/sp]



No, already responded in my above post. If you did that for every character then there would be like two people who wouldn't be speed gods in the verse.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> That's a fallacy. You don't know how fast Gian was.
> 
> When they re materialized after the teleportation Tsunade and the Raikage attacked Madara and Muu as fast as the other. As I doubt that the Raikage slowed down for Tsunade, Tsunade must have done an insane jump almost as fast as the Raikage.
> 
> ...



Thing is that he anticipated its speed and appeared right behind it and was fast enough to use 2 Raikiri. Bare in mind that he had never seen the attack before and I believe that he was still recovering from Atsugai.

Was Ei in Base?

If I remember correctly, Madara used tiny Katon against Tsunade that she simply smacked away..

Looks like Gian cancelled out his Raikiri, if he stopped Raikiri himself then his gloves wouldn't have burned away. He cancelled out Gian and Gian cancelled out Raikiri imo.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> And how has that got anything to do with it? Madara did not use his strongest Katon on her iirc.
> 
> Does Tsunade weight 1000 kg? She could be able to use Chakra to the feet method to counter it with knowledge though.
> 
> ...



Madara's most basic Katon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu's best elemental attack.

And with experience, which she has.

Enma stated himself that he was afraid of Kusanagi's cutting power despite his diamond like body. His statement should be worth of somethingh, shouldn't it?

Shikamaru reacted to gian and was ready to counter it when Kakashi appeared, is Tsunade slower than wind arc Shikamaru? Doubt it.



Itachі said:


> Thing is that he anticipated its speed and appeared right behind it and was fast enough to use 2 Raikiri. Bare in mind that he had never seen the attack before and I believe that he was still recovering from Atsugai.
> 
> Was Ei in Base?
> 
> ...



And? If Gian is slow Kakashi's feat is shit.

Ino, Chouji and Shikamaru reacted to that attack and Shikamaru was ready to counter it.

The raikiris burned the gloves, like chidori used to burn Sasuke's arm. Nothing suggest that they were equal to an stationary raikiri.

No, he used the fire dragon technique, its a mid to high level katon, fast enough to hit Itachi, and she deflected several of them.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If I remember correctly, Madara used* tiny Katon* against Tsunade that she simply smacked away..



Does not matter. Raikage couldn't dodge it. Mei could not react. And both are faster than Shikamaru who dodged Zukoku. And yeah Tsuande "simply" smacking it away is a testament to her strength.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Do you think Tsunade can regenerate with half of her head missing?



Probably.

Your brain still continues to birth new stem cells in maturity, which can differentiate into neuronal and glial cells, and there are proteins in the body that if activated can induce pluripotency in somatic cells (as they do in fact preserve the genetic information they were endowed with as early embryonic cells), which is relevant because Tsunade explained that what Sōzō Saisei did was stimulate all proteins in her body. Organs and limbs (or "all tissues" in another translation) would include the brain.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Madara's most basic Katon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu's best elemental attack.
> 
> And with experience, which she has.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Madara's most basic Katon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu's best elemental attack.
> 
> And with experience, which she has.
> 
> ...



And? I'm saying that Tsunade did not laugh off Madara's strongest Katon.

Enma said that he could be hurt iirc, not that he could be cut or damaged by Kusanagi.

Shikamaru wasn't able to counter it, he was still fumbling around with his scroll, lol. Tsunade also doesn't have any methods of defending against Gian without moving. Katsuyu's a meat shield but Gian rips straight through her.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Probably.
> 
> Your brain still continues to birth new stem cells in maturity, which can differentiate into neuronal and glial cells, and there are proteins in the body that if activated can induce pluripotency in somatic cells (as they do in fact preserve the genetic information they were endowed with as early embryonic cells), which is relevant because Tsunade explained that what Sōzō Saisei did was stimulate all proteins in her body.



I apologise, I didn't mean literally, lol. Against a body shot she could easily regenerate but if it's to her head she's going to be significantly disadvantaged.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> And how has that got anything to do with it? Madara did not use his strongest Katon on her iirc.


It was till faster and stronger than anything Kakuzu can cough up.



> Does Tsunade weight 1000 kg? She could be able to use Chakra to the feet method to counter it with knowledge though.


What? She tanked CST and tanked the Katon end of. She ignores Atsugai.


> Kusanagi never cut Enma to my knowledge, gimme panels.


You never bring panels when I ask for them so why should I do it for you?
The point is Enma said Kusanagi would leave him considerably sore.


> No, already responded in my above post. If you did that for every character then there would be like two people who wouldn't be speed gods in the verse.


Okay thats fine. Tsunade > Wind Kakashi in terms of speed.



Itachі said:


> I apologise, I didn't mean literally, lol. Against a body shot she could easily regenerate but if it's to her head she's going to be significantly disadvantaged.



Not really. She tanked Mabui's Jutsu with Sozo Saisei. A jutsu that should have pulverised her. She can survive a decapitation so I doubt she'd be disadvantaged.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

She could be disoriented sure. I think the technique would probably let her live through the event, though.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> And? I'm saying that Tsunade did not laugh off Madara's strongest Katon.
> 
> Enma said that he could be hurt iirc, not that he could be cut or damaged by Kusanagi.
> 
> Shikamaru wasn't able to counter it, he was still fumbling around with his scroll, lol. Tsunade also doesn't have any methods of defending against Gian without moving. Katsuyu's a meat shield but Gian rips straight through her.



Chakra-less Tsunade did not laugh, and she only had minot injures.

No, he said that "even if in this form i'm as durable as diamond the kusanagi may still be able to injure me".

Yeah, Shikamaru reacted to the attack and:
a) Thought that the attack had the same destructive power as a fart and took out a scroll with funny jokes to read while tanking it.
b) Thought the attack was dangerous and took out an scroll that he thought would have been able to protect them.

Be it a) or b) Shikamaru had time to see the attack, think about it, and take out the scroll before the attack came close to them.

No, gian wouldn't be able to pass through Katsuyu. It's up to you to prove that it could.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> It was till faster and stronger than anything Kakuzu can cough up.



That's irrelevant, I was just saying that she didn't laugh off the strongest Katon.



> What? She tanked CST and tanked the Katon end of. She ignores Atsugai.



Debatable whether she tanked CST. She didn't even need to tank the Katon, she just smacked them away like flies. She ignores Atsugai with good use of CTF method, yes.



> You never bring panels when I ask for them so why should I do it for you?
> The point is Enma said Kusanagi would leave him considerably sore.



Damn, you nearly saved face there man.



> Okay thats fine. Tsunade > Wind Kakashi in terms of speed.



Tsunade > Wind Kakashi in terms of Raiton.



> Not really. She tanked Mabui's Jutsu with Sozo Saisei. A jutsu that should have pulverised her. She can survive a decapitation so I doubt she'd be disadvantaged.



Yeah, I'm not going through this again. I am willing to discuss this topic with reasonable posters but I find it difficult to endure a discussion with you. I think that this is the longest.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Are you ignoring the fact that Tsunade moved as fast as base A?

Of course i'm not saying that Tsunade is close to a serious A's speed, but that feat alone puts Tsunade's speed on par with war saga Kakashi's speed.

And then you have Byakugou Sakura being as fast as EMS Sasuke.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

When did she move as fast as base Ay?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Are you ignoring the fact that Tsunade moved as fast as base A?
> 
> Of course i'm not saying that Tsunade is close to a serious A's speed, but that feat alone puts Tsunade's speed on par with war saga Kakashi's speed.



I think I made the same comment a year or so ago and I was proved very wrong, lol. I don't think that her speed is equal to Raikage's base speed. She may have had good teamwork and co-ordinated attacks with him but her top speed is not equal to Ei's top speed in base.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

When did Tsunade move faster than Base Ay?


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's irrelevant, I was just saying that she didn't laugh off the strongest Katon.


Okay then. So don't argue that Kakuzu's fodder jutsu is relevant to Tsunade.


> Debatable whether she tanked CST. She didn't even need to tank the Katon, she just smacked them away like flies. She ignores Atsugai with good use of CTF method, yes.


Yes.
As for CST, she tanked it. She protected everyone in the village, healed any damage, and took the force of the attack, using her chakra to save everyone, she then got up and ran to the place where Pein was and got there before the ANBU did.




> Damn, you nearly saved face there man.


Whatever.



> Tsunade > Wind Kakashi in terms of Raiton.


Maybe I dunno?




> Yeah, I'm not going through this again. I am willing to discuss this topic with reasonable posters but I find it difficult to endure a discussion with you. I think that this is the longest.


Concession accepted. Pressure got to you did?



Zuhaitz said:


> Are you ignoring the fact that Tsunade moved as fast as base A?
> 
> Of course i'm not saying that Tsunade is close to a serious A's speed, but that feat alone puts Tsunade's speed on par with war saga Kakashi's speed.
> 
> And then you have Byakugou Sakura being as fast as EMS Sasuke.



Exactly.





Itachі said:


> I think I made the same comment a year or so ago and I was proved very wrong, lol. I don't think that her base speed is equal to Raikage's base speed.


No. You conceded to Raikage wankers. Don't give in to them.



Itachі said:


> I think I made the same comment a year or so ago and I was proved very wrong, lol. I don't think that her speed is equal to Raikage's base speed. She may have had good teamwork and co-ordinated attacks with him but her top speed is not equal to Ei's top speed in base.



Nah maybe shes faster as Raikage cant get above a Bijuu height with Gamabunta sword in his hand any faster than Tsunade did



Zuhaitz said:


> Chakra-less Tsunade did not laugh, and she only had minot injures.
> 
> No, he said that "even if in this form i'm as durable as diamond the kusanagi may still be able to injure me".
> 
> ...



He can't prove *anything* lol.



FlamingRain said:


> When did she move as fast as base Ay?





ATastyMuffin said:


> When did Tsunade move faster than Base Ay?



Of course y'all forgot. Scan please Zuhaitz.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> When did Tsunade move faster than Base Ay?



Faster no, as fast.

When they re materialized from the teleportation and attacked Muu and Madara.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

The fact remain that even Shikamaru could react and try to counter Gian.

Tsunade's speed should be above Shika's.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

That feat wouldn't necessarily translate into direct movement speed. Great reaction feat, though.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Tsunade's speed IS way above Shika's.

And remember these speed feats? (One second let me go get the scans)


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Faster no, as fast.
> 
> When they re materialized from the teleportation and attacked Muu and Madara.



But that's not movement speed, though? That's striking speed, and that's not the facet of Ay's arsenal that's reputably so fearsome.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> But that's not movement speed, though? That's striking speed, and that's not the facet of Ay's arsenal that's reputably so fearsome.


Tsunade moved faster than A. Get over it.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Tsunade moved faster than A. Get over it.



Are you capable of reading?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Thank God for Tsun-Tsun, she generates so much activity here.


----------



## Clowe (Feb 10, 2016)

Tsunade threads are always the longest.

It's like people can't agree on where she stands or something.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Ergo, concession accepted. Thanks for your time.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @Tasty muffin
> I'm not responding to you. You've never been a good debater so I'm not arguing with you.





Keep fighting the good fight.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Didn't know Sadgoob had an angry older brother.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Face it Muffin, you've never been a good debater so he's not arguing with you.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Man, I wish Izaya could share with me his wisdom about how Orochimaru could take down Itachi neg-diff.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

What debate was good. He's just another misogynist trying to sabotage Tsunade. I'll debate with Itachi who puts substance into his debates and proves his claim. I have no time for one sentence posts from a chauvinist.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Man, I wish Izaya could share with me his wisdom about how Orochimaru could take down Itachi neg-diff.



I NEVER CLAIMED THAT.
Either of them need extreme diff to best each other at full power. 

This is why I said I don't have time for you. Get out of my thread troll


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> What debate was good. He's just another misogynist trying to sabotage Tsunade. I'll debate with Itachi who puts substance into his debates and proves his claim. I have no time for one sentence posts from a chauvinist.



I'm not falling for your rare showings of reasoning to draw me in again, nuh-uh.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Read it. It's actually legit.It's a tiny bit disorganised but if you want to ignore it then do so at your own peril.  Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## Clowe (Feb 10, 2016)

Oh man this essay never gets old...


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

This man put more work than your average thesis in his forum post trying to prove how one fictional character is better than another.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not falling for your rare showings of reasoning to draw me in again, nuh-uh.



Concession accepted

We were actually having a good debate until Tasty Muffin  Ragga Muffin over there came in. This is why I don't have time for his tired ass.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

ragga muffin 

is that some sort of slur from whatever planet you're from


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Oh man this essay never gets old...



Read it. It's seven parts. Read one a day and get back to me next week. I can't remember who it was nut another poster here did this and we had a debate over Private Message and he agreed Oro wins based on my essay. I can get evidence for you if you want


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ragga muffin
> 
> is that some sort of slur from whatever planet you're from



It's from a book I read Ragga Muffin 

The book is called Small Island. Our class reads it in college


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Concession accepted
> 
> We were actually having a good debate until Tasty Muffin  Ragga Muffin over there came in. This is why I don't have time for his tired ass.



I'm not responding to you. You've never been a good debater so I'm not arguing with you.


----------



## Clowe (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Read it. It's seven parts. Read one a day and get back to me next week. I can't remember who it was nut another poster here did this and we had a debate over Private Message and he agreed Oro wins based on my essay. I can get evidence for you if you want



Sorry fam, I read too much in college already, I'm up to my neck on Feudalism books right now to be reading that wall of text. 

Not that I need too, considering Itachi already soloed Orochimaru multiple times in Masashi Kishimoto's manga, (once in his strongest form) which is enough for me to draw a conclusion.

Still, my respects, that must have took time to write.

But I'm going off topic here anyway, this thread is about Tsuna.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

simmer down, Itachi. he's well-educated and learned, he'll be making that solid 30k straight out of college with that incredibly useful English Lit. degree.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> But that's not movement speed, though? That's striking speed, and that's not the facet of Ay's arsenal that's reputably so fearsome.



Striking speed? What's that?

How is that different from dodging speed?

All I have seen in the last page are ad hominems....


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> simmer down, Itachi. he's well-educated and learned, he'll be making that solid 30k straight out of college with that incredibly useful English Lit. degree.



Only schmucks take English Lit, the real 1% take Gender Studies.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Do you think the speed at which you punch and run are the same?

No? Because they rarely aren't. Key example, Bee easily intercepted Ay's striking speed before the latter hit Naruto, but Bee isn't anywhere as fast as Ay's Shunshin.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Sorry fam, I read too much in college already, I'm up to my neck on Feudalism books right now to be reading that wall of text.
> 
> Not that I need too, considering Itachi already soloed Orochimaru multiple times in Masashi Kishimoto's manga, (once in his strongest form) which is enough for me to draw a conclusion.
> 
> ...





ATastyMuffin said:


> simmer down, Itachi. he's well-educated and learned, he'll be making that solid 30k straight out of college with that incredibly useful English Lit. degree.



I study Economics and Psychology too. Who knows how much I'll be making then 

Anyway here's the proof. Open the spoiler and scroll straight to the purple writing at the bottom. 
I mean business when it comes to Lord Orochimaru.

*Spoiler*: __ 






			
				IzayaOrihara said:
			
		

> HandfullofNaruto said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







I'm not alone in this world as you can see.
Sorry for putting you on blast @HandfullofNaruto but you are for real one of the calmest and most level headed debaters here.

But likewise let's get back to Tsunade (shame all the people I was debating with got scared of my intellect and ran off after conceding)


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Do you think the speed at which you punch and run are the same?
> 
> No? Because they rarely aren't. Key example, Bee easily intercepted Ay's striking speed before the latter hit Naruto, but Bee isn't anywhere as fast as Ay's Shunshin.



Depends on what you consider to be running. 

Tsunade and Raikage both jumped and punched/kicked, not only kicked and punched.

And the same type of speed should be needed to dodge a punch or kick, or Kakuzu's gian, than to jump and kick someone.

Unless i'm missing something.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Running as in full sprint speed, or Shunshin.

Not hopping two feet in the air.



> But likewise let's get back to Tsunade (shame all the people I was debating with got scared of my intellect and ran off after conceding)



Good Christ, the irony.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Running as in full sprint speed, or Shunshin.
> 
> Not hopping two feet in the air.
> 
> Good Christ, the irony.



But hopping two feet in the air it's all she needs to dodge Kakuzu's gian, and she can do it almost as fast as base Raikage...

So she should have no problem dodging Gian.

In any case Tsunade was able to keep up with 5 Susanoos. 
How is possible that someone thinks that she'll have troubles with Kakuzu's 5 masked monsters?

How close in power do people think Madara's clone's Susanoos and Kakuzu's masked monster are?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

She can dodge Raiton: Gian launched directly at her, whether she can do it with other Ninjutsu bombarding her is a different story. Kakuzu could easily use Katon: Zukoku, let Tsunade tank it and then fire off Gian towards her while her LOS is still partially blocked by flames.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 10, 2016)

Who said anything about Kakuzu's monsters?

I'm still on Base Raikage comparisons, bub.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Depends on what you consider to be running.
> 
> *Tsunade and Raikage both jumped and punched/kicked, not only kicked and punched.
> 
> ...



My earlier point exactly when I posted those scans



ATastyMuffin said:


> Good Christ, the irony.



You saw the proof. You saw them all run.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> She can dodge Raiton: Gian launched directly at her, whether she can do it with other Ninjutsu bombarding her is a different story. Kakuzu could easily use Katon: Zukoku, let Tsunade tank it and then fire off Gian towards her while her LOS is still partially blocked by flames.



She only needs to worry about that attack. The rest she can endure them. And if Tsunade can see Kakuzu because there a fire wall between them, then Kakuzu can't see Tsunade either, and so she can't aim.

And she only needs to worry about any of them for a short time because she'll be destroying them with a single punch each.

Not to mention that she uses to destroy the ground around she and her enemy, making it more difficult for her enemy to run away from her.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Who said anything about Kakuzu's monsters?
> 
> I'm still on Base Raikage comparisons, bub.



And what's your conclusion that matter?

Can we say that Tsunade's "strinking/dodging speed" is close to base Raikage's.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> She only needs to worry about that attack. The rest she can endure them. And if Tsunade can see Kakuzu because there a fire wall between them, then Kakuzu can't see Tsunade either, and so she can't aim.
> 
> And she only needs to worry about any of them for a short time because she'll be destroying them with a single punch each.
> 
> Not to mention that she uses to destroy the ground around she and her enemy, making it more difficult for her enemy to run away from her.



Kakuzu can't see her but he can attack her last known position, she may be running directly towards him. He could also blow Tsunade away with Atsugai and then manouver his Raiton mask next to her and shoot a bolt in her skull. There are many ways that Kakuzu goes about this.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakuzu can't see her but he can attack her last known position, she may be running directly towards him. He could also blow Tsunade away with Atsugai and then manouver his Raiton mask next to her and shoot a bolt in her skull. There are many ways that Kakuzu goes about this.



No, we have debated about that already, she can't blow Tsunade away.

And also if Gian is only "as powerfull as an spear" then Tsunade can block it with his arms and then regen.

People less durable than Tsunade have use their arms to block kunais before.

And she can break the ground and simply throw a giant rock right to Kakuzu's face.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakuzu can't see her but he can attack her last known position, she may be running directly towards him. He could also blow Tsunade away with Atsugai and then manouver his Raiton mask next to her and shoot a bolt in her skull. There are many ways that Kakuzu goes about this.



Prove Atsugai can even push Tsunade. Her strength is much higher than kakashi who virtually tanked it.
Stop with these headshot arguments. If it was Itachi facing Kakuzu youd never assume Kakuzu would aim for itachi''s head. So don't do it to Tsunade.
And even if he does she can dodge or fall back on her regeneration.
I already explained to you how none of Kakuzu's menial techniques are problematic for the Slug Princess.


Zuhaitz said:


> No, we have debated about that already, she can't blow Tsunade away.


My Point Exactly.


> And also if Gian is only "as powerfull as an spear" then Tsunade can block it with his arms and then regen.


Exactly.





> People less durable than Tsunade have use their arms to block kunais before.


Orochimaru caught a kunai from Anko between his fingers lol.


> And she can break the ground and simply throw a giant rock right to Kakuzu's face.


And use terrain manipulation to her advantage.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, we have debated about that already, she can't blow Tsunade away.
> 
> And also if Gian is only "as powerfull as an spear" then Tsunade can block it with his arms and then regen.
> 
> ...



I don't recall. Tsunade could maybe counter Atsugai by focusing Chakra to her feet but that doesn't mean that she could react quickly enough to do it every time.

Are you actually serious here? 

Gian is not 'only powerful as a spear', it's a large spear consisting of Raiton Chakra which is suited to penetration in the first place.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Not to mention that she can simply summon Katsuyu, and just let Katsuyu spit her acid in the general direction of Kakuzu. That would end the fight in a second.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't recall. Tsunade could maybe counter Atsugai by focusing Chakra to her feet but that doesn't mean that she could react quickly enough to do it every time.
> 
> Are you actually serious here?
> 
> Gian is not 'only powerful as a spear', it's a large spear consisting of Raiton Chakra which is suited to penetration in the first place.



Nope, the databook  states that its as powerful as a large spear.... A large spear is a joke for Tsunade's durability.

And no, if Tsunade is running foward at full speed Atsugai that only pushed someone in mid air and has no other feats won't stop her.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Izaya, you're too intelligent for me to handle. Farewell, sweet prince.



Zuhaitz said:


> Nope, the databook  states that its as powerful as a large spear.... A large spear is a joke for Tsunade's durability.
> 
> And no, if Tsunade is running foward at full speed Atsugai that only pushed someone in mid air and has no other feats won't stop her.



Can you read? Can you see? Gian consists of Raiton Chakra.

Databook also says this:



> [picture of Kakuzu's mask shooting out lightning]
> ↓→If the number of lightning bolts is increased, this attack gains the ability to slaughter multiple enemies in an instant. *Dodging this thunder that comes flying at high speed is next to impossible!!*
> [picture of two lightning bolts coming towards Shikamaru and Chouji]



I win.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Gian is not 'only powerful as a spear', it's a large spear consisting of Raiton Chakra which is suited to penetration in the first place.



Gian < Kusanagi so its pointless to continue that debate.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

yoooooooooooo 

I've never seen a thesis on NF


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Just realised that the DB entry doesn't even say that Gian is only as powerful as a large spear. Good job man, you had me fooled.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Izaya, you're too intelligent for me to handle. Farewell, sweet prince.
> 
> I win.



Impossible to dodge lol when Kakashi ran over and intercepted it, from the other side of the forest. This is why I ignore Databook e.g. Itachi's age, Yata's durabiltiy etc. Its all hype. And false hype like that.

Thank god you finally concede.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Izaya, you're too intelligent for me to handle. Farewell, sweet prince.
> 
> Can you read? Can you see? Gian consists of Raiton Chakra.
> 
> ...



And what if It's consist in raiton, Tsunade has raiton chakra and can counter it like Kakashi did.

Also if we go by the databook:
Ninpō Sōzō Saisei ? Byakugō no Jutsu

When Ninpo "Sousou Saisei" is used at the same time as "Byakugou no Jutsu", it becomes possible to use it (Sousou Saisei) over a long period of time. *When ones life is effected by grave wounds pushed to the point where they'd normally die, ones body is instantly returned to an unwounded condition.* Than it just talks about the rules of medical ninjutsu where broken with the completion of such a marvelous Ninjutsu as this.

I win.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> yoooooooooooo
> 
> I've never seen a thesis on NF



Refer to post 224 on this thread. My thesis is good as you can see.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> And what if It's consist in raiton, Tsunade has raiton chakra and can counter it like Kakashi did.
> 
> Also if we go by the databook:
> Ninpō Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu
> ...



And a beheading is one such grave wound right?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Impossible to dodge lol when Kakashi ran over and intercepted it, from the other side of the forest. This is why I ignore Databook e.g. Itachi's age, Yata's durabiltiy etc. Its all hype. And false hype like that.
> 
> Thank god you finally concede.



Half of it is bullshit hype but some of it can be taken seriously.



Zuhaitz said:


> And what if It's consist in raiton, Tsunade has raiton chakra and can counter it like Kakashi did.
> 
> Also if we go by the databook:
> Ninpō Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu
> ...



Dude, you're literally conjuring up any argument you can, you're not presenting a balanced account.

Touche.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

I don't take the databooks too seriously. I don't think Tsunade would survive decapitation.

But I find it hilarious that they think that Kakuzu's C rank raiton would be able to kill Tsunade or that Kakuzu has any chance when Tsunade was able to keep up with 5 Susanoos on her own.

All the points made saying that Kakuzu had any chance were based on Tsunade being a ratarded slowpoke that would let Kakuzu move and attack as he pleases.

Tsunade can one shoot Kakuzu with Katsuyu or kill him thanks to her superior strenght, speed, regeneration and taijutsu.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Half of it is bullshit hype but some of it can be taken seriously.


Yeah true but the examples i stated were part of the bullshit half.




> Dude, you're literally conjuring up any argument you can, you're not presenting a balanced account.
> 
> Touche.



Atsugai/Zukoku/Gian/Domu <<<< Tsunade's Fighting Style.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> I don't take the databooks too seriously. I don't think Tsunade would survive decapitation.
> 
> But I find it hilarious that they think that Kakuzu's C rank raiton would be able to kill Tsunade or that Kakuzu has any chance when Tsunade was able to keep up with 5 Susanoos on her own.
> 
> ...



You pretend like Tsunade is literally immune to any tactic that Kakuzu uses and that Kakuzu can't protect himself against Tsunade at all. You're the most slanted poster I've debated with for a while.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You pretend like Tsunade is literally immune to any tactic that Kakuzu uses and that Kakuzu can't protect himself against Tsunade at all. You're the most slanted poster I've debated with for a while.


Its true. She counters his elemental techs as we have both explained to you. Then what can he do in return to harm Tsunade? Virtually nothing cos she counters his whole arsenal.

I find it funny that no one has brought up Katsuyu ....


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm not saying that Kakuzu wins all the time, just that it's not impossible for him. Jiongu and Raiton: Gion are still viable threats to Tsunade.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not saying that Kakuzu wins all the time, just that it's not impossible for him. Jiongu and Raiton: Gion are still viable threats to Tsunade.



Okay. PS is a viable threat to Hashirama but trust me he counters it every time. Same with Jiraiya and Pain. Goemon is dangerous but would there ever be a time where Preta doesn't step in to (literally) mop up the oil?


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You pretend like Tsunade is literally immune to any tactic that Kakuzu uses and that Kakuzu can't protect himself against Tsunade at all. You're the most slanted poster I've debated with for a while.



Unless you downgrade Tsunade to a retarded slowpoke, any tactic Kakuzu can use with his stats and arsenal will be endured or countered.

Tsunade is simply above Kakuzu's level.

If you let Kakuzu a free attack, he may be able to kill even alive Madara.

But if not the people that faster, stronger, more durable and are above his level will always defeat him.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Unless you downgrade Tsunade to a retarded slowpoke, any tactic Kakuzu can use with his stats and arsenal will be endured or countered.
> 
> Tsunade is simply above Kakuzu's level.
> 
> ...



Because Tsunade can't be distracted by one of Kakuzu's masks and then get her skull caved in by Gian

Because the notion of Jiongu bursting out from undergound and tagging Tsunade is laughable

Because Atsugai can't even budge Tsunade one inch

Because Kakuzu's body that was able to survive Futon: Rasenshuriken will dissipate when Tsunade smacks his leg


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Unless you downgrade Tsunade to a retarded slowpoke, any tactic Kakuzu can use with his stats and arsenal will be endured or countered.
> 
> Tsunade is simply above Kakuzu's level.
> 
> ...



@Itachi
- this is what I have been trying to say to you the whole time


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Because Tsunade can't be distracted by one of Kakuzu's masks and then get her skull caved in by Gian
> 
> Because the notion of Jiongu bursting out from undergound and tagging Tsunade is laughable
> 
> ...



She regenerates her skull if Kakuzu even gets that far - Tsunade is faster than the people he fought
It is laughable
It will not
No. It will dissipate when Katsuyu spits on him.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Yes, Tsunade can regenerate her skull before Kakuzu gets a chance to put her down, but Kakuzu has 0% chance of tagging Tsunade. This is why I try to refrain from discussions with you.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Because Tsunade can't be distracted by one of Kakuzu's masks and then get her skull caved in by Gian
> 
> Because the notion of Jiongu bursting out from undergound and tagging Tsunade is laughable
> 
> ...



To distract her they must be faster and better than 5 Susanoos that couldn't do it. Are the monsters on the level of speed and intelligence of Madara?

It is, Tsunade can keep up with 5 enemies at the same time.

Has Atsugai more force behind it than Madara's katons? The answer is no.

Tsunade's punch was able to break throw Madara's Susanoo, Naruto's FRS no. That's answers all your questions.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, Tsunade can regenerate her skull before Kakuzu gets a chance to put her down, but Kakuzu has 0% chance of tagging Tsunade. This is why I try to refrain from discussions with you.



Madara hung Tsunade up like a kebab with his Susanoo Sword. Her spine was broken. Did Madara get a chance to kill her?

You need to be realistic in terms of what would happen in the manga. It may seem like a convincing argument but in Kishi's manga Kakuzu < Tsunade and cannot kill her.

Not lliterally, but the chances of him winning are low. One is weaker than Kisame by a substantial amount and another is above him.



Zuhaitz said:


> To distract her they must be faster and better than 5 Susanoos that couldn't do it. Are the monsters on the level of speed and intelligence of Madara?
> 
> It is, Tsunade can keep up with 5 enemies at the same time.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Concede @Itachi.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

So many holes, too little time...


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> So many holes, too little time...



Yeah, we get it, you say that Kakuzu is more powerful than Madara.

We simply don't agree.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

I should have conceded when you revealed that Raiton: Gian only has the power of a spear. I should have listened to you, damn it.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I should have conceded when you revealed that Raiton: Gian only has the power of a spear. I should have listened to you, damn it.



In fact you stated it, I only believed you.

Any way we understand you, Kakuzu is more powerful than Madara for you.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

You're the one who made it up, DB only says that it has the shape of a spear, not the power of a spear. 



Yes, Kakuzu solos Madara with ease. Atsugai & Zukkoku + Jiongu Blitz GG.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

@Itachi your arguments are purely subjective. We gave you objective reasons and evidence why Tsunade wins yet you continue to ignore them and just assume Wind Mask can perform better than 5 Madara clones using V3 Legged 4 Armed Susanoo.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

Bullshit, you two have been blatantly one-sided throughout this whole thing. Tsunade can definitely win, she doesn't win 100% of times as you are suggesting though.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

lmao Itachi why are you letting this guy ruffle you so much?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm not rustled, I just find it sad to believe that those two are not trolling...


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not rustled, I just find it sad to believe that those two are not trolling...



Welcome to the internet, where people can truly display themselves


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

Tsunade can keep up with 5 clones of Madara using Susanoo, genjutsus and elemental attacks, but yeah sure, Kakuzu and his monsters are way too fast, strong, durable, intelligent and more versatile than Madara and can distract her and kill her.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> lmao Itachi why are you letting this guy ruffle you so much?



Thats what I'm wondering.  Why you so mad?


Itachі said:


> Bullshit, you two have been blatantly one-sided throughout this whole thing. Tsunade can definitely win, she doesn't win 100% of times as you are suggesting though.





She does win 100% of the time. I don't see any way in which Kakuzu wins. Maybe if Tsunade's brain shuts down then Kakuzu has a chance.



Zuhaitz said:


> Tsunade can keep up with 5 clones of Madara using Susanoo, genjutsus and elemental attacks, but yeah sure, Kakuzu and his monster are way too fast, intelligent and more versatile than Madara and can distract her and kill her.



Exactly. This.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

@Zuhaitz:
It looks like he's conceded. Now we can finally rest and have a good night's sleep.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> The difference is that we've seen Tobirama use his sword in combat, while Tsunade has no feats of using poisons and battle armor on panel. Therefore her poison is featless; her battle armor is featless. There's nothing to work with in terms of Tsunade's poison or the durability of her battle armor. You're free to argue that Tsunade could use poisons and whatnot, but best of luck with that when she has literally zero feats with those things. Unfortunately, Kishimoto failed to deliver on that front. Tobirama literally debuted _Hiraishingiri_ with a sword. I should also add that it would be remiss to ignore Tobirama's sword given how little we know about his skills in combat. The fact that Tobirama has used his sword on-panel (like Hashirama's and Madara's weapons) in life means that one should take it into account. As another example, Madara could summon Kurama in life, and it was a huge part of his arsenal, so most of the time people tend to specify whether or not Kurama is allowed in a Madara thread because he is assumed to still be able to use it. As yet another example, Chiyo could lace her puppets' weapons with lethal poison in life, so people often assume that she can do so in the Battledome as well (as far as I have seen) because it does not introduce a wild amount of speculation or betray Chiyo's portrayal in the manga.




Chiyo used poisons all throughout her life. She was canonically using them all the time. Tobirama used his sword in the Warring-states era, but in the period of 20ish years after that, he seemed to prefer not to. If he's allowed a sword, it should specified in the battle stipulations, because it isn't something he normally carries, just as Kurama isn't something Madara normally wields. I also question his ability to behead with a sword. It isn't made of chakra like the Susano'o sword nor would it be able to phase Enma's diamond-hard body. It would cut better than a kunai, that's for sure, but cutting the entire way through her neck still seems unlikely.



> Well, we should not "give Minato's physical movement feats to Tobirama," but we could compare how effective their techniques are in application, because Minato's and Tobirama's battle styles are extremely similar. I thought that _Suidanha_ required one hand seal, so in consideration of that, I _don't_ think Tobirama would be able to get behind Tsunade and decapitate her with _Suidanha_ with as much ease as Minato would have using Rasengan. However, as we have seen, a technique can be prepared prior to warping with _Hiraishin_ and then used with deadly effectiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato could do that, yeah. It's speculation as to whether or not Tobirama can. He never attempted such a thing on Madara, after all. And Madara possessed higher speed, better durability, and the same regeneration that Tsunade had. Yet he was still relying on his kunai most of the time. Also, Minato's Rasengan does have feats of speed, but Suidanha does not. Tsunade might be caught by surprise, but she can canonically detect when her opponents are behind her and hear her opponents heartbeat from a few feet away, so she might just evade before its able to go the entire way through her neck.



> Well, the sword ran her through. Tsunade was still intact after the Magatama exploded, so it doesn't surprise me that she was able to heal from that injury more quickly. Logically, the sword damage would take longer to heal from than damage from blunt force because there are more possibly more cells and certainly more complicated injuries to regenerate from.
> 
> However, I'm glad you brought healing up. Tsunade had clear damage from Madara's Magatama.
> 
> ...



What markings are you referring to? There are scratches etc. on her clothes and skin, but those already existed prior to her being impaled with the Susano'o sword. 



> Please, show me an example of _Yasaka no Magatama_ piercing anything. Naruto's FRS is literally a shuriken, but is its primary purpose to cut enemies? No. I posted the panels above which contradict the argument that Tsunade withstood "pointy, spinning shuriken." You have failed to address any of that evidence. _Yasaka no Magatama_ is not an attack designed for piercing, and it never has been in literally any of its showings. No two ways about that, I'm afraid. The Magatama cause explosions upon impact.



Magatama has only ever collided with rocks and sand, and we never saw the direct damage they inflicted prior to their explosion, either because of the angle or because they weren't shown clearly. But I'm not about to argue that spinning shuriken are incapable of cutting someone  Whether or not they are solely designed to pierce is irrelevant, because they have sharp edges and can therefore pierce. Likewise, FRS can and does cut, it's just that its primary purpose is not cutting.



> As far as lethality, I would say that the scale of the Magatama's explosion is probably comparable to an explosive tag, but the damage done is somewhat dubious. I doubt that Magatama are as weak as a mere explosive tag, but I think the damage that would be done is probably comparable enough to make the difference in damage more negligible. The damage done by three Magatama thrown in a chain as in its debut (to thwart Chibaku Tensei) is likely far greater, however.



I agree, a larger Magatama would inflict much more damage, but the explosion was still enough to cast Tsunade backwards with such force that she collided into a boulder several dozen meters away, which then exploded upon impact. Sakura tried to blow herself up with an explosive tag at CQC and the knock back wasn't nearly as violent - Chiyo caught her without losing her footing on the ground. Seems like the explosion from Magatama is more devastating.



> If you wanted to argue that Tsunade with _Byakugō no Jutsu_ activated could recover from explosion damage and not be obliterated, I would probably be more likely to agree with you. Tsunade has never tanked piercing / slicing damage. If you're going to pull up the case of Orochimaru and Kusanagi, I don't think that Orochimaru tried to slice through her, so that wouldn't convince me. Kishimoto has a habit of making a fuss when a character uses durability to their advantage. For example, Sandaime Raikage was shown to have been the only person capable of surviving Heavenly Transfer with no injuries, so when A did that, his durability was not implied, it was made explicit.  I've already shown why _Yasaka no Magatama_ are not designed to pierce with the scans in this post and the posts above.



But Tsunade's durability has been proven to be abnormal. She was told she would come out ripped up and dead after Heavenly Transfer, and instead she received only minor gashes and lived, prior to Sozou Saisei even being activated. Kabuto was astonished that she didn't collapse and die after he hit her neck with Chakra Scalpel, and Orochimaru couldn't understand why she wasn't dying every time he slashed at her with his Kusanagi (if you don't think this was an exemplary feat of durability, then we'll have to agree to disagree). You might have proven that Magatama are not designed to _solely_ pierce, but even so, that does not mean that they cannot inflict piercing damage whenever they posses the shape necessary to do so.



> If it was that easy, I doubt that GKF would be so dangerous.



Tobirama stated that he invented the technique to be used with Edo Tensei. That's originally where it got its reputation of being dangerous.



> So your argument is essentially that, based on inference, Tobirama wouldn't have access to his full power and would have used GKF differently than I suggested? Tobirama is one of the most intelligent characters in the manga and as such is more than capable of adapting. Again, the argument that "well, Tobirama wouldn't use this like that when he was alive" is purely biased conjecture that assumes that Tobirama would hold back or not be at his best. It's a weak argument.



I'm sorry that you think my argument is weak.



> I highly doubt that. Even if she could, the tags would summon more tags regardless.
> 
> The tags are going to summon countless other tags no matter what Tsunade does. I don't know where you got the impression the technique could be circumvented with genin battle tactics, or that the multiplication of the tags took place after the tags exploded. The tags are thrown, then they multiply, then they explode and summon more tags. Summoning is a type of S/T ninjutsu--it's instantaneous. So Tsunade would not be able to grab all of the tags before they exploded.



I believe I did misunderstand the mechanics of the jutsu, but even so, why do you highly doubt that she could destroy the sheets? If you destroy the summoner, the summoner won't be around to summon. The seals get destroyed once she cuts up/crushes/acid blasts those sheets. The summoning is instantaneous but the initial throwing of the sheets and their explosions are not. Even if Tsunade is only able to destroy five or six sheets at a time by herself, and she's unable to destroy those first six tags before they summon, her giant slug soon starts to help out.



> He used it on Juubito in the midst of being hit. Tobirama's _Edo Tensei_ kamikaze could do the same thing to Tsunade. In fact, the kamikaze wouldn't even need to touch Tsunade. They could simply throw the tags near her location. The blast radius is so large that escaping is nearly impossible to begin with. Tobirama could also use _Hiraishin_ with his _Edo Tensei_ to warp them into Tsunade's grill provided that she is marked or there is a _Hiraishin_ seal nearby.



Actually, he just attached some regular explosives to Juubito while he was being hit. And he already predicted that this would fail. He used it as a set-up to throw GKF sheets at him, while he was immobilised by Mokuton. They didn't detonate especially fast - Tsunade can destroy them in quick succession just as she did Madara's Katon bombs, especially while Katsuyu is present. He could accomplish all of the things you mentioned if Tsunade allowed the sheets to exist, which she will not.




> I have a question for you regarding GKF's portrayal: If Kishimoto had Tobirama use GKF on Juubito, do you think that that Tobirama would have a problem using it on Kage-level ninja if given the opportunity (with multiple Edo Tensei at his disposal, no less)?



He pulled it off on Juubito because Hashirama immobilised him. Otherwise, he would've just vaporised those sheets.



> Of course he didn't use it without _Edo Tensei_ prepared; there's no reason to even look for proof of that. Again, the techniqe requires sacrifice. No sacrifice, no technique. No _Edo Tensei_, no GKF.



So you agree that Alive Tobirama, without any Edo Tensei prepared, would not attempt to use GKF by himself?



> Well, reverse summoning would be BFR. I think that Katsuyu has the potential to survive, but she would probably get thoroughly destroyed in the process, and Tobirama can just rinse and repeat. Either Byakugō no Jutsu would run out, or Katsuyu would get destroyed (with Tsunade being badly damaged but able to recover). I can see Tsunade taking GKF once... But not twice.



You're assuming Tobirama has the necessary preparation to use it twice.



> That _is_ fanfic though. You literally just made that stipulation up, and that's not how the jutsu works anyway. The tags summon many tags... Then they explode and summon more tags. The blast radius is irrelevant to the damage done to Tsunade unless she's outside of it. If Tobirama used GKF, Tsunade would be in pretty bad shape if not outright obliterated.



Dude, reality check, this is all made-up. Legitimately none of this has ever happened in the manga. We're both making up stipulations, you just think yours is more likely to happen.​​


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Chiyo used poisons all throughout her life. She was canonically using them all the time. Tobirama used his sword in the Warring-states era, but in the period of 20ish years after that, he seemed to prefer not to. If he's allowed a sword, it should specified in the battle stipulations, because it isn't something he normally carries, just as Kurama isn't something Madara normally wields. I also question his ability to behead with a sword. It isn't made of chakra like the Susano'o sword nor would it be able to phase Enma's diamond-hard body. It would cut better than a kunai, that's for sure, but cutting the entire way through her neck still seems unlikely.




I think you missed the point of me mentioning Tobirama's use of sword _on panel_. Regardless, Tobirama would be able to cut Tsunade's head off with a sword _or_ a kunai. Zabuza beheaded Gato with a kunai in his mouth. Tobirama Senju will be able to do the same thing to Tsunade with a kunai in his hands.




> Minato could do that, yeah. It's speculation as to whether or not Tobirama can. He never attempted such a thing on Madara, after all. And Madara possessed higher speed, better durability, and the same regeneration that Tsunade had. Yet he was still relying on his kunai most of the time. Also, Minato's Rasengan does have feats of speed, but Suidanha does not. Tsunade might be caught by surprise, but she can canonically detect when her opponents are behind her and hear her opponents heartbeat from a few feet away, so she might just evade before its able to go the entire way through her neck.




The fact that Tobirama attempted to use a kunai in spite of Madara's better durability should tell you something about what he can do to Tsunade... You just admitted yourself that Madara is more durable than Tsunade, yet a kunai was a threat. I think you've also neglected to spot the usefulness in attacking with a kunai marked with the Hiraishin seal (as Minato did against Obito). The utility of Hiraishin is incredible. The kunai is essentially doubles as a weapon and a teleportation device, so if Tobirama uses that tool in combat, it gives him the ability to maneuver around his opponents at speeds and in ways that are not possible with conventional body movement.



... Which would have been impossible with Tobirama's physical movement.

While we're on the topic of Hiraishin in CQC, SM Madara was initially unable to strike Tobirama with the aid of Sage Sensing, as that scan shows. I doubt that Tsunade's sense of hearing is anywhere near the level of perception that is afforded by Sage Mode. If Tobirama is able to get close to Tsunade like that, there's no doubt in my mind that Tobirama will be able to decapitate her--possibly with a kunai, and definitely with a sword. As for Suidanha's speed, once again, the speed of the jutsu is made less of an issue by virtue of the user's instantaneous transport.



> What markings are you referring to? There are scratches etc. on her clothes and skin, but those already existed prior to her being impaled with the Susano'o sword.




I'm referring to what FR referred to as "steam" if you look back at the discussion we were having shortly after that post .



> Magatama has only ever collided with rocks and sand, and we never saw the direct damage they inflicted prior to their explosion, either because of the angle or because they weren't shown clearly. But I'm not about to argue that spinning shuriken are incapable of cutting someone  Whether or not they are solely designed to pierce is irrelevant, because they have sharp edges and can therefore pierce. Likewise, FRS can and does cut, it's just that its primary purpose is not cutting.




What the Magatama is intended to do is always relevant, because it is an expression of the author's intent. You didn't address any of the scans I posted regarding YM's ability to pierce, so I will treat your lack of refutation as a concession.




> I agree, a larger Magatama would inflict much more damage, but the explosion was still enough to cast Tsunade backwards with such force that she collided into a boulder several dozen meters away, which then exploded upon impact. Sakura tried to blow herself up with an explosive tag at CQC and the knock back wasn't nearly as violent - Chiyo caught her without losing her footing on the ground. Seems like the explosion from Magatama is more devastating.




I agree, the explosion from a Magatama certainly _is_ more devastating than a mere explosive tag, I never contended Tsunade's ability to withstand the blunt force of that attack. I'm sure that Tsunade would be able to take an attack with a similar amount of force (e.g. Suiryuudan) and recover _easily_. But kunai and swords do not inflict blunt force damage. 




> But Tsunade's durability has been proven to be abnormal. She was told she would come out ripped up and dead after Heavenly Transfer, and instead she received only minor gashes and lived, prior to Sozou Saisei even being activated. Kabuto was astonished that she didn't collapse and die after he hit her neck with Chakra Scalpel, and Orochimaru couldn't understand why she wasn't dying every time he slashed at her with his Kusanagi (if you don't think this was an exemplary feat of durability, then we'll have to agree to disagree). You might have proven that Magatama are not designed to _solely_ pierce, but even so, that does not mean that they cannot inflict piercing damage whenever they posses the shape necessary to do so.




Those gashes were not minor. There were lethal lacerations on her neck and chest area, and there were presumably more injuries beneath Tsunade's clothing. If the injuries were not lethal, there would be no need for Tsunade to have activated the Sōzō Saisei. Kabuto's Chakra Scalpel in Part 1 only affected muscles; it was nowhere near its Mokuton-slicing strength in Part 2. Orochimaru wasn't trying to kill Tsunade. He even stated this after he first pierced her with Kusanagi. It wasn't until Orochimaru attacked her again that he tried to kill her, and even then, he thought the injuries that she had sustained were sufficient enough to have killed her. The fact that Tsunade was able to get back up is a good resilience feat, but nothing about her durability was emphasized or implied.




> Tobirama stated that he invented the technique to be used with Edo Tensei. That's originally where it got its reputation of being dangerous.




What makes the technique dangerous is the kilometers-wide explosion it causes when activated.




> I'm sorry that you think my argument is weak.




It's essentially a cop-out. It's like saying that Tsunade wouldn't summon Katsuyu before Kakashi (w/o Kamui) killed her, or that Tsunade wouldn't summon Katsuyu if she's up against a major threat, which you and I both know is BS.




> I believe I did misunderstand the mechanics of the jutsu, but even so, why do you highly doubt that she could destroy the sheets? If you destroy the summoner, the summoner won't be around to summon. The seals get destroyed once she cuts up/crushes/acid blasts those sheets. The summoning is instantaneous but the initial throwing of the sheets and their explosions are not. Even if Tsunade is only able to destroy five or six sheets at a time by herself, and she's unable to destroy those first six tags before they summon, her giant slug soon starts to help out.




Tsunade would have to be moving at speeds she has not been shown to be capable of moving at in order to crush all of those tags. Moreover, the jutsu is activated by Tobirama, so if needed, he would be able to activate GKF before she even thought to crush the tags. On top of that, once again, Tobirama could use multiple Edo Tensei, or have the tags thrown just out of Tsunade's reach.




> Actually, he just attached some regular explosives to Juubito while he was being hit. And he already predicted that this would fail. He used it as a set-up to throw GKF sheets at him, while he was immobilised by Mokuton. They didn't detonate especially fast - Tsunade can destroy them in quick succession just as she did Madara's Katon bombs, especially while Katsuyu is present. He could accomplish all of the things you mentioned if Tsunade allowed the sheets to exist, which she will not.




First of all, my point was that if Tobirama could tag someone faster than him while being hit, his Edo Tensei would stand a good chance of doing the same to Tsunade. Second of all, swinging your arm is not the same as grabbing and crushing multiple times. The second process inherently takes longer to do, and Tsunade wouldn't be able to detroy Edo Tensei, destroy the tags, and deal with Tobirama and his Kage Bunshin coming at her from multiple angles with Hiraishin all in good rhythm. 




> He pulled it off on Juubito because Hashirama immobilised him. Otherwise, he would've just vaporised those sheets.




Tsunade is not Obito, therefore she cannot use this vaporization method. Just because the one time that Tobirama used GKF his opponent was immobile doesn't mean that he requires his opponent to be immobile every time. Distractions with Kage Bunshin and Hiraishin would easily serve the same purpose.




> So you agree that Alive Tobirama, without any Edo Tensei prepared, would not attempt to use GKF by himself?




I don't think that Tobirama was suicidal, no.




> You're assuming Tobirama has the necessary preparation to use it twice.




I am.




> Dude, reality check, this is all made-up. Legitimately none of this has ever happened in the manga. We're both making up stipulations, you just think yours is more likely to happen.




I was referring to your misconception that Tsunade could crush the explosive tags to thwart GKF.
​​


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @Zuhaitz:
> It looks like he's conceded. Now we can finally rest and have a good night's sleep.



I literally.. made you lose sleep?


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> Zabuza beheaded Gato with a kunai in his mouth. Tobirama Senju will be able to do the same thing to Tsunade with a kunai in his hands.



Gato wasn't even superhuman. His _bodyguards_ were complete fodder. 

Tsunade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gato

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Feb 11, 2016)

Hidan could loose his head 

What has tsunade tanked that is impossible for Hidan to tank ?


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

People are going to bring up Heavenly Transfer as well as Kusanagi and fabricate circumstances to argue durability.

This is endless...


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

I can understand why people argue for that view but I don't support it because it's so vague. We don't know the mechanics of Mabui's Jutsu or how it's able to send objects unscathed but can't do the same for most humans.

I may disagree with such posters but I don't think that they are being dishonest. The worst claim I've encountered is that Madara's normal Susano'o swords would fail to bisect Tsunade.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

I don't think it's an outlandish claim, but I do think it's a bit vague like you said and also ignorant of the author's intent. When Kishi wants to show to the reader that someone or something is durable, he usually makes it very clear.

If Kishi wanted the reader to think that Tsunade, _the Godaime Hokage_ of all people was durable, or that durability was a strong point, then there would be no doubt.

Sandaime Raikage. Yondaime Raikage. Sage Mode Naruto. KCM Naruto. Kimimaro. Hidan. Tailed Beasts. Susano'o. Gaara's Sand. Mokuton. Domu. Ohnoki's Golem. Kaiten. All of these things are durable and expressly so. Tsunade's durability has never been expressed or emphasized by the author.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

I don't think that she's portrayed as durable in general but I understand why someone would take that as a durability feat. Mabui was actually talking about durability as one of the factors of surviving the Jutsu, I just don't accept it as a feat because the actual mechanics of the technique are quite muddy.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

She was, but then what did Tsunade say she would survive with after that? 

"With this." And she pointed to her Yin Seal. 

And then what did she do after arriving?

Activate her Yin Seal.

Conclusion: Tsunade is durable? Nah.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

But after using the Jutsu she only had minor injuries, though I guess the Jutsu could cause severe internal damage that she healed. Also don't see why she would use Sozo Saisei if it wasn't serious.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Her lacerations were lethal enough for to have to use Sozou Saisei, and there's about 80% of her body that we can't see because she's clothed. We also didn't see Tsunade immediately after she emerged from Heavenly Transfer (and kicked Madara), or what injuries she had sustained because, again, she was clothed. I feel like the only way people will accept Tsunade not having special resistance to slicing is if there's a flashback where she fights naked and has one of her limbs sliced off. Or something.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

She has to be durable enough to not be torn into little pieces, and she has to have the life force to survive wounds that should be instantly lethal, or regeneration is useless.

Some people are quite content in believing that someone would create a high ranking character that wouldn't be given the prerequisite skills to prevent their central aspect from being functionally useless, and that is the core of this disagreement.

The alternate views that the durability side find acceptable are ones like her being too skilled to allow any hits that would tear her to tiny pieces or instantly kill her, and that's also fine, because it's another method of addressing the issue.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> She has to be durable enough to not be torn into little pieces, and she has to have the life force to survive wounds that should be instantly lethal, or regeneration is useless.
> 
> Some people are quite content in believing that someone would create a high ranking character that wouldn't be given the prerequisite skills to prevent their central aspect from being functionally useless, and that is the core of this disagreement.



Tsunade's hyped for being able to take attacks and continue fighting, not being able to have attacks bounce off of her. She's been pierced by blades multiple times and hasn't shown anything impressive in terms of durability imo, I think that she should be above average though.

The sealing pot that Darui used on Kinkaku & Ginkaku came out of the teleportation Jutsu with no scratches at all, do you think that it's more durable than Tsunade? The Jutsu can teleport objects with no trouble, that's one of the main reasons I don't like regarding it as a feat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

I think whatever Kishi tells me to think until I can't stand it anymore.  

If the author says the sky is pink in this universe I believe it.  If the author says this magic spell destroys a person but not a pot, I believe it.  I may not understand it, but I believe it.

Check out Deidara's nano-bombs.  They invade destroy only organic matter, and they do so on a cellular level.  However they don't effect leaves.  I'm not going to conclude that Sasuke is less durable than a leaf, not will I say that leaves are more durable than Sasuke.  I'm just going to say that's how it works for some reason and move on. I'm not even going to touch on how bombs differentiate between organic and inorganic matter.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Well, I can believe it too but it doesn't mean that I think it's a valid durability feat for Tsunade. Especially since she said that she would survive it with Sozo Saisei.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

I think Tsunade has about as much durability as Kisame does.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Mabui said that the person who went through was "torn apart," not ripped to shreds. Tsunade arrived at the scene with lacerations, and her use of Sozou Saisei implies that those lacerations were lethal. Her flesh was torn apart, and had she not healed herself, she would have died. Tsunade was resilient enough to survive being sliced in half by Madara and summon Katsuyu, and she was able to fight with Susano'o swords between her spine, so obviously her resilience is incredible. Given what we know about Tsunade, the most logical interpretation of her survival of Heavenly Transfer is that she was able to survive and attack Madara due to her resilience, not her durability.

Also, just because Tsunade is susceptible to certain types of injury doesn't mean that her healing abilities are functionally useless, and even if it that was the case, it wouldn't necessarily be more logical for her to have attributes which reduce the possibility of injury. Every character tends to have weaknesses. So that would be a faulty train of thought.

The view that Tsunade is too skilled to be decapitated, however, is a far more logical argument which is backed by feats and portrayal.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

When she says she'll just heal the damage, there's an implicit assumption that she'll survive to heal it.  Survival takes some level of durability, and Tsunade did take organ damage, shown when she coughed out blood.  Why did her organs and muscles get damaged when her structure seemed fine?  Her bones are more durable than her muscles and organs.  But wouldn't her soft squishy brain be hurt too?  Probably.  What about her heart?  Yeah, that should have been messed up too.  But she still kicked Madara, talked, and use jutsu.  So either those things were in good enough shape to still be functioning after severe damage (durability) or they're not as important as they are in normal people.

People also don't seem to think that she can regrow limbs, but what would have happened if the warp tore an arm off?  No one seemed to consider that, or if they did they thought it would all be okay once she pointed at the seal.  What if it was her head?  Why does pointing at the seal make all that better?  It's not like they knew exactly what would happen, since the only benchmark for warping living matter was the Sandaime Raikage, "Who's blood was like iron," and he's completely incomparable to a normal ninja and their puny non-liquid iron blood cells.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

If Mabui thought that Tsunade--even with her Yin Seal--would have been unable to survive the injuries that the other ninja had previously sustained from Heavenly Transfer, should probably would have mentioned that. Note that Mabui said not another word about being torn apart after Tsunade pointed to her Yin Seal. That leads me to believe that the injuries that Tsunade sustained are similar to what Mabui was trying to describe prior.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

When something is torn apart, it's usually in the phrase, "He was torn apart, limb by limb."  It carries the notion of dismemberment.  Katsuyu also stated, "I don't mind being torn to pieces/bits."

Torn apart
Dismemberment was carried out in the Medieval and Early Modern era and could be effected, for example, by tying a person's limbs to chains or other restraints, then attaching the restraints to separate movable entities (e.g. vehicles) and moving them in opposite directions.



When I read this, I'm being told in no uncertain terms you come out in loose pieces, instantly dead.  If a pile of body had a forehead seal they used to be able to point at, I'd have said it was a useless gesture.  I am also being told that Tsunade is Canadian.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Mabui doesn't mention anything about pieces. Note that a "tear" can also refer to a laceration.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

I think that it's probably regarding internal damage, a normal person wouldn't survive if their vital organs were torn apart but Tsunade could.


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## Bringer (Feb 11, 2016)

Something I'd like to say is how would Mabui know that people who go through the technique would be torn to shreds if someone in the past hadn't tried the technique on people before? I really doubt that the Third Raikage was the FIRST person to ever go through the technique. 



People wouldn't know opening the 8th gate would kill them if someone in the past didn't try it.

People wouldn't know Bijuu extraction kills the host if someone in the past had never tried to extract a bijuu from a host.

People wouldn't know the dangers of the heavenly transfer if they had not tried it on someone before the Third Raikage.


Also in this dude's translations Mabui actually said they tried it on people before. 

skill and tools (ocular power)



> tsunade-sama!\\
> Mabui, prepare the Tensou no jutsu*! Let’s go!\\
> (TLN: heavenly transfer technique)\\
> That’s a technique that can only be used to transfer no living things!\\ it is essentially different from summoning and reverse summoning techniques and it cannot be used for transferring a person!\\
> ...



Something else to note is that Tsunade activated her regeneration after the heavenly transfer, not before. So it isn't as if she was regenerating as she was being torn apart. Again, I think her durability took part in that. Also, I don't think her wounds were fatal either. I think a regular shosen would've been able to heal her wounds, but it would've been too time consuming so her creation rebirth was more convenient. 

skill and tools (ocular power)

After Orochimaru goes all slasher massacre on Tsunade with his legendary sword, Shizune offers to heal Tsunade's wound because she didn't want Tsunade to shorten her life span. Could Shizune have healed it? Yes. Would it be practical? No.


*@Saru* 



> If Mabui thought that Tsunade--even with her Yin Seal--would have been unable to survive the injuries that the other ninja had previously sustained from Heavenly Transfer, should probably would have mentioned that.



Would Mabui even know the extent of Tsunade's regeneration? I mean Tsunade's technique isn't exactly common knowledge.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

So if or when you tear apart, say, a fresh chicken, how does it look afterwards?


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Saru*
> Would Mabui even know the extent of Tsunade's regeneration? I mean Tsunade's technique isn't exactly common knowledge.




I think she would have known about Tsunade's abilities in hindsight. The Aliiance was organized into groups based on people's skills and strengths, so some of that information would have had to become common knowledge to the upper echelons of the Alliance. Mabui, as A's assistant, would qualify as an upper echelon. Shikaku, as Tsunade's assistant, would qualify as an upper echelon.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> So if or when you tear apart, say, a fresh chicken, how does it look afterwards?




I guess one could also ask how one looks after their opponent says that they're going to tear them apart in a fight (professional, street, sport-related, etc.). Not all expressions are literal.

The other thing about all of this is, how does not getting torn by Heavenly Transfer imply resistance to be sliced? We don't know the nature by which Heavenly Tranfer causes injuries other than that "the body can't handle the transmission speed." That's very vague, and doesn't tell me a lot about the manner in which the body may be damaged. It gives insight to the result (torn, dead), but not how exactly that damage comes about. The damage done by a sword is very straightforward, on the other hand.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

I understand where you're coming from but I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that most characters would be literally torn apart. Base Ei survived it with absolutely no injuries while V1 Ei got pierced by Chidori, if it was actually powerful to 'tear apart' characters then I think that it would have at least done some sort of damage to Ei.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

> I think she would have known about Tsunade's abilities in hindsight.



Shikaku forgot about it up until Tsunade reminded him.  Then he facepalmed and handwaved it, while Mabui stayed in spasm.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I understand where you're coming from but I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that most characters would be literally torn apart. Base Ei survived it with absolutely no injuries while V1 Ei got pierced by Chidori, if it was actually powerful to 'tear apart' characters then I think that it would have at least done some sort of damage to Ei.





The user of the jutsu said "we definitely know normal people get torn apart."  

Ei powered up.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

> Shikaku forgot about it up until Tsunade reminded him. Then he facepalmed and handwaved it, while Mabui stayed in spasm.




But she didn't mention being torn apart again after that. She was also concerned about A, but that ended up being for naught. Clearly, Mabui didn't fully understand the type of damage done by Heavenly Transfer either.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Ei surpassed his father at some point.  Neither he nor Mabui were aware.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The user of the jutsu said "we definitely know normal people get torn apart."
> 
> Ei powered up.



Ei was in base.



Unless you're suggesting that Ei improved his base durability.

Oh, and when I'm mentioning torn apart I'm talking about being torn apart literally, not having your organs torn apart which is what I believe happens.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

I am suggesting his base durability increased.

I'm talking about being literally torn apart too.  What happened to Tsunade's organs and skin was what would happen to a normal someone's everything.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ei surpassed his father at some point.  Neither he nor Mabui were aware.




That doesn't change the fact that Mabui lacked a precise understanding of Heavenly Transfer's drawbacks.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

@POW

Well, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Most of the kage surpassed or defeated or measured up to their previous incarnations in some respect.  Gaara beat his dad.  Onoki beat his master.  Ei took the Bill Dung's Roman warp.  Mei kind of defeated the Black Zetsu which was representative of her village's plagued pastwith Akatsuki.  Tsunade revealed Byako which put her up to  Hashirama and got acknowledgement from Madara.

You can disagree, but I think that's because Kishi is a bad writer and doesn't do a good job of convincing his audience.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> That doesn't change the fact that Mabui lacked a precise understanding of Heavenly Transfer's drawbacks.



She lacked precise knowledge on Ei.  She knows her own jutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Nah, I don't think that Ei's durability increasing is implausible, characters did get illogical boosts after all. I just don't think that Mabui's technique literally tears people apart. I don't think there's really any right answer when it comes to this because Kishi's Manga is full of inconsistencies and even if it wasn't, he's not going to spend time pondering over whether nerds on the internet are going to be able to have a proper discussion about such topics.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Mei kind of defeated the Black Zetsu which was representative of her village's plagued past.



Poor Mei.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

I can also argue that she lacked precise knowledge on her own jutsu. Can you prove either train of thought wrong? Because either way, she was unsure whether or not A would survive.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Ei didn't used to be as tough as his dad.  We can see this by him not being as tough as his dad.  Then he was.  Mabui was unsure whether or not he was.

I know my attack power is 50.  I know you used to have less than 50 hp.  I don't know if you still have less than 50 hp.  You might not, but I don't want to risk being wrong and accidentally kill you.


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## Saru (Feb 11, 2016)

Yeah, that doesn't prove that Mabui knows the manner by which Heavenly Transfer does damage to the body.

Being torn apart is not the same as being decapitated. Like, at all.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

How would she measure it though? Sandaime was durable as fuck so it's unlikely that he only just managed to survive the Jutsu. Ei being able to survive doesn't make him as durable as his father.


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## Bringer (Feb 11, 2016)

Maybe because Sandaime wasn't the first human being in the history of Naruto to ever go through the technique?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Nah, I don't think that Ei's durability increasing is implausible, characters did get illogical boosts after all. I just don't think that Mabui's technique literally tears people apart. I don't think there's really any right answer when it comes to this because Kishi's Manga is full of inconsistencies and even if it wasn't, he's not going to spend time pondering over whether nerds on the internet are going to be able to have a proper discussion about such topics.



Normally that's a good attitude to have.  I've noticed he gets rather hamfisted at times when he really wants to make a point.  Like when he wanted people to know that Pain was strong, he had Jiraiya and the toads say it over and over again for every panel on a page.  Then to make sure we knew Jiraiya was strong he had Pain, Pa, and Kakashi mention how strong Jiraiya was just because.  The teleport stuck out to me, because he spent pages talking about how deadly it was and connecting it to the Sandaime who got durability hype up the yingyang.



> Poor Mei.



Yeah.  Mei got less spotlight than her bodyguard.  You can kind of see the setup for something and then it just didn't go anywhere until it got rushed to completion.


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## Skaddix (Feb 11, 2016)

Yeah Ei is not as durable as his Father but that doesnt mean he doesnt have abnormal durability think about it like the difference between Naruto and J-mans Sage Mode just because Naruto's is better doesnt mean the other one provides no boost at all. 

Sure Tsunade didnt get shredded to death which means she has enhanced durability (I mean she is super strong) but it did shred her internal organs (see her coughing blood and having to heal) which I guess kinda goes back to Gai's description of Hyuga clan techniques being effective because the durability of your internal organs cant be increased via training.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

What Bringer said.  Kumo's full of jerks and idiots and guinea pigs.

This is the village where some dude ate the Hachibi tentacle for power and died, and they kept making Jins until one of them didn't explode a rampaging monster out of their stomach and die.  It also had people like the Kumo Bros, who were descended from the Sage of Six Paths, and inherited some of his super body.  She or her clan probably killed enough people with it for it to well known that you don't do it to anyone who can't hellstab a bijuudama with less than a concussion.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Normally that's a good attitude to have.  I've noticed he gets rather hamfisted at times when he really wants to make a point.  Like when he wanted people to know that Pain was strong, he had Jiraiya and the toads say it over and over again for every panel on a page.  Then to make sure we knew Jiraiya was strong he had Pain, Pa, and Kakashi mention how strong Jiraiya was just because.  The teleport stuck out to me, because he spent pages talking about how deadly it was and connecting it to the Sandaime who got durability hype up the yingyang.



But he also had Pain say that J-Man would have defeated him with knowledge, which is very unlikely given Pain's power imo. I agree with you about the durability hype, however Tsunade heavily implied that she would survive the technique with Sozo Saisei, not her durability.



> Yeah.  Mei got less spotlight than her bodyguard.  You can kind of see the setup for something and then it just didn't go anywhere until it got rushed to completion.



Onoki, Tsunade & Gaara shined, Ei to a lesser extent but Mei just got shat on. At least her Jutsu execution speed is decent.


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## Skaddix (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> What Bringer said.  Kumo's full of jerks and idiots and guinea pigs.
> 
> This is the village where some dude ate the Hachibi tentacle for power and died, and they kept making Jins until one of them didn't explode a rampaging monster out of their stomach and die.  It also had people like the Kumo Bros, who were descended from the Sage of Six Paths, and inherited some of his super body.  She or her clan probably killed enough people with it for it to well known that you don't do it to anyone who can't hellstab a bijuudama with less than a concussion.



Um sheesh such Bias.

Jins going on rampage because the Bijuu takes over is basically a standard operating risk for everyone not named Kirabi and Naruto. Gaara was well on his way to that happening to him before the Naruto Fight. 

Besides they probably tried it on a few prisoners first or some animals.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

This was fun, but you just went back to the start of the circle.  I won't fall into your Izanagi. 

Mei's jutsu speed was nice, but all that did was get built up to give Tsunade a nice feat of outpacing it.  Getting built up to get dumped on is really sad for Mei.  Oh, Mei got a durability feat when she got punched by Susano.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

What. Once they were all introduced, Raikage was in the spotlight the most out of any of them. Five fights: Jūgo, Sasuke, Naruto, B, Minato, and Madara. Ōnoki had like two and a half, and all of them ended in him getting shat on.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Um sheesh such Bias.
> 
> Jins going on rampage because the Bijuu takes over is basically a standard operating risk for everyone not named Kirabi and Naruto. Gaara was well on his way to that happening to him before the Naruto Fight.
> 
> Besides they probably tried it on a few prisoners first or some animals.



Kumo is effectively mean.

Suna is ineffectively mean.

In fairness, Kumo did try to choose what they thought would be good host candidates, and no one made that guy eat the hachibi tentacle.


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## Skaddix (Feb 11, 2016)

Eh Onoki was super old though makes sense he have trouble besides Dude has one of the most hax jutsus in the manga like Kamui but better turn anyone to dust.

But Raikage got more spotlight cause he was connected to the most plot relevant character of the bunch in Kirabi the rest werent. 

Cant argue with the above Suna was a pretty weak and ineffectual village in general.


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## Santoryu (Feb 11, 2016)

Base Jiraiya maybe? She'd beat Sasori too, but I think he's clearly weaker than Jiraiya.


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## Itachі (Feb 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What. Once they were all introduced, Raikage was in the spotlight the most out of any of them. Five fights: Jūgo, Sasuke, Naruto, B, Minato, and Madara. Ōnoki had like two and a half, and all of them ended in him getting shat on.



Raikage was boring. I remember him punching things. Onoki & Tsunade were the best because they had interesting things to say and do, as well as Gaara. Though I'm referring to the war only, though my opinion pretty much still extends to the story in general.


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## Veracity (Feb 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What. Once they were all introduced, Raikage was in the spotlight the most out of any of them. Five fights: Jūgo, Sasuke, Naruto, B, Minato, and Madara. Ōnoki had like two and a half, and all of them ended in him getting shat on.



If you count Jugo as a fight then Onnoki has like 4. Muu, Mizukage and Madara twice.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

Deidara too.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Counting Ei's fight with Juugo is like counting Tsunade vs Shizune as a fight.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

I forgot about Deidara. I'd count him. So Ōnoki had three and a half. One was inconclusive, one and a half ended in him needing an ally to save his life, and another ended with him on the ground bleeding to death.

I have to count A's fight with Jūgo as a real fight. Jūgo did start fresh and everything. It isn't like I'm counting Zetsu.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

Jūgo started as a kiddified version of himself.


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## Veracity (Feb 11, 2016)

I think you also forgot to include his fight against Madara.


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## Skaddix (Feb 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Jūgo started as a kiddified version of himself.



Doesnt make a difference seeing how casually Bee beat his ***.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

You mean Raikage?


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I think you also forgot to include his fight against Madara.



That's the one where he bleeds to death.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

Do we count Sasuke? 

By the way since Gaara was introduced he fought: Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, Kimimaro, Deidara, Sasuke again, Rasa, Gengetsu, and Madara.

I think he wins that one.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

I was only counting since the Five Kage Summit Arc, because that's when all of them were introduced. Obviously Gaara & Tsunade win spotlight if we start from chapter one, lol.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

Gaara still has like four if I add Mū. Actually five or more if the event with Shukaku and the one with Jūbidara were to be added.

Tsunade had only fought Madara since the Kage Summit Arc.

Tsunade would be up there if her would-be fights counted, but otherwise she had like two or three across Part 1 and 2 depending on whether or not you count Kabuto and Orochimaru as one or two.


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## Clowe (Feb 11, 2016)

wow, this has been going on for a while...

So what's the verdict, overall?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Orochimaru, probably.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 11, 2016)

Nah, more on the lines of Gaara. Tsunade's a solid mid-tier amongst the mid-tier Kages.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

> So what's the verdict, overall?



There were more Orochimaru nominations than other mentioned characters.


He would have been my second choice for the strongest Tsunade could beat.


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## Skaddix (Feb 11, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Nah, more on the lines of Gaara. Tsunade's a solid mid-tier amongst the mid-tier Kages.



The Problem with Gaara is his Power Level is totally location dependent...more sand equals more power sure he can grind more sand for himself but he has to stall for that.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 11, 2016)

Yeah, I'm including peak Gaara in that verdict, ergo, desert Gaara.


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## Veracity (Feb 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That's the one where he bleeds to death.



Ay was in the same position yet you counted it ...For me its:
Raikage: Jugo, Sasuke, Madara, KCM Naruto , Minato
Onnoki: Deidara, Muu, Mizukage, Madara. His attacks with Gaara against Madara have to account for something...

So 4.5 to 5. Marginal difference.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Ay was in the same position yet you counted it.



That's what Rocky meant.

He counted the Madara fight for Ohnoki when he said:



> One was inconclusive, one and a half ended in him needing an ally to save his life, *and another ended with him on the ground bleeding to death.*


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## Veracity (Feb 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That's what Rocky meant.
> 
> He counted the Madara fight for Ohnoki when he said:



Oh then he miscounted. He counted that fight on top of the deidara one and still came to 3.5. Unless he thinks the mizukage fight is .5, and the battle with Madara before the other Kage appeared was nothing at all. At the very least it should be 4 to 5.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

I didn't want to give Ōnoki a full loss to Mizukage because he was low on chakra from his fight with Mū. So it's only a half loss.


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## Parallaxis (Jul 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Gato wasn't even superhuman. His _bodyguards_ were complete fodder.
> 
> Tsunade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gato


lol gato is trash, a person with a kunai in his mouth rekt him and his whole army


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 3, 2016)

It really depends on the scenario and knowledge.

Among her peers I have her rated the lowest and in terms of overall offense, she's really one dimensional (i.e. CQC and raw physical strength) with very poor speed. Most of her peers have counter-strategies developed either to kill her instantly like Oonoki w/Jinton and Raikage w/a Lariat or they fight her at a distance (i.e. Mei, Gaara).

If I compare her against the Akatsuki members, Sasori is about as far as I think she can get, she might get lucky w/beating Kakuzu but she's not going to be able to beat Deidara/Kisame and Itachi, Obito and Pain/Nagato all would squash her.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

I'd say that Orochi or Tobi is the strongest she's likely to beat more times then not


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Orochimaru seems to be the consensus. I have her pegged at High Kage tier along with her fellow Sannin, slightly above people like Sasori, Tobirama and Itachi (yes I said it, so please let's not start a war over it) and slightly below people like Minato, Prime Hiruzen, Pain, Nagato, Prime Hanzo etc etc. People can say Pain wrecks her if they want. But Pain (who stated Jiraiya could have killed him) held all 3 Sannin in equal regard, so please, continue downplaying Tsunade if you wish. I won't berate you for having an opinion that differs from mine as long as it's factually based on the manga. Either way it's been a fun thread and with me being the OP lol I wish i'd been a part of it, but I was too busy repelling Itachi-fanboys this past week. Anyway, continue discussing if you wish. I had fun reading through the comments. And I'm just gonna leave this here.  Right here. Pay no notice to it. At all.


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