# Sanji vs Katakuri



## Incognitos (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri is probably the weakest yc1, does Sanji beat him? They are quite similar in their fighting styles so I think once Sanji can beat katakuri we can say he's yc1.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 4


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## convict (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji extreme difficulty.

We have been overrating Sanji's durability though it seems. It is not that impressive the way he was legitimately wounded by those unappealing attacks by Queen including getting dragged through a plaster wall? But he still is very durable and can regenerate. He can take a lot of Katakuri's hits. He is also significantly faster and can utilize his speed to overcome future sight even though going full throttle seems to exhaust him as mentioned by Queen. His attack power is definitely good enough now to take out Kats seeing how he is surely more powerful than WCI G4 Luffy and Queen is likely significantly more tough than Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Shanks (Dec 3, 2021)

Yeah, Sanji extreme dif is right.


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji extreme diff.
His combination of speed, durability, AP (Queen is more durable than Katakuri), mobility, strength, and very good CoO (Katakuri was already impressed on WCI, Queen was spotted this chapter while invisible) makes me think that ultimately Sanji would be the last man standing vs Katakuri top tier CoO, speed and awakening.


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## Corax (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji extreme. He has all tools to beat Kata. Good dura and regen to outlast him, super speed to avoid FS, good attack power (for this tier at least), good CoO ( worse than Kata's but still good).


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## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri underestimation is beginning to look outright ugly now. Doflamingo is about to get dethroned from his meme-tier.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8 | Funny 9 | Winner 2


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## OG sama (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji extreme, hes well rounded enough for this to be a serious fight in which it takes everything out of Sanji to win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Katakuri underestimation is beginning to look outright ugly now. Doflamingo is about to get dethroned from his meme-tier.


Kaido is next in line I think. Year 2026 thread: how many Kaido Imu can solo?

Reactions: Funny 9


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 3, 2021)

Kata extreme diff

Better CoA, better CoO, awakening. The only thing Sanji has on Kata is speed and that's not enough

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Bernkastel (Dec 3, 2021)

Nah Sanji is strong and certainly stronger than YC2 but he's not beating Katakuri yet...he has to get more used to his new powers and use them more efficiently to beat a YC1....he'd give Katakuri a hell of a fight though..very high diff.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Fujitora (Dec 3, 2021)

Corax said:


> Top tiers are next in line I think. Year 2026 thread: how many top tiers Imu can solo?


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Kata extreme diff
> 
> Better CoA, better CoO, awakening. The only thing Sanji has on Kata is speed and that's not enough


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## Corax (Dec 3, 2021)

Might be true. Guess Joy Boy/Imu will be god tiers.


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## LaniDani (Dec 3, 2021)

Kata high diff.


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## Fujitora (Dec 3, 2021)

Corax said:


> Might be true. Guess Joy Boy/Imu will be god tiers.


I doubt it.


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## Samehadaman (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Katakuri underestimation is beginning to look outright ugly now. Doflamingo is about to get dethroned from his meme-tier.



I keep telling folks. It is how OL operates.
Wait until Kaido loses, doesn't matter solo or not solo or whatever else.

Everyone who loses in manga is fodder to OL. Except Blackbeard.

Reactions: Winner 8


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## Joe Maiafication (Dec 3, 2021)

What are you smoking?

Oda wouldn't let Luffy face a weak YC before fighting an actual yonko, Katakuri probably the stronger YC in the One Piece universe. 

Katakuri low/mid diff

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 5


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Kata extreme diff
> 
> Better CoA, better CoO, awakening. The only thing Sanji has on Kata is speed and that's not enough



He also has him beaten in terms of durability and endurance (healing factor). Their AP should be close. 
Which one has the better odds of staying on his feet after several successful hits exchanged?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> He also has him beaten in terms of durability and endurance (healing factor). Their AP should be close.
> Which one has the better odds of staying on his feet after several successful hits exchanged?


Sanji hasn't taken an injury as severe as Katakuri and still fought at a high-extreme level for 3 hours.

Man himself said that the at best 1 hour of going all out against Queen was already starting to tire him out


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## Freechoice (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri vs King probably goes either way

The fucking Katakuri downplay is ludicrous and it's primarily brigaded by....

Any guesses? Here's a clue - they are the worst

That's right. ZORO NERDS

You know why? Because Zoro is getting absolutely ragdolled and stomped by King currently

And in their peasized minds it's unfathomable that Luffy beat someone of the same caliber an arc prior

So obviously King mid diffs Katakuri

Fuck sake this place is crap now

I miss 2013-2016 OL




Yes Zoro is rent free in my head and copium memes etc etc

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 4 | Winner 4 | GODA 1


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Sanji hasn't taken an injury as severe as Katakuri and still fought at a high-extreme level for 3 hours.
> 
> Man himself said that the at best 1 hour of going all out against Queen was already starting to tire him out



Sanji heals. 
He recovered from a broken spine. 
His endurance is superior at this point.


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## Jay. (Dec 3, 2021)

sanji is using knives or swords on top of that cause katakuri is mochi


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## YoungChief (Dec 3, 2021)

Jay. said:


> sanji is using knives or swords on top of that cause katakuri is mochi


You might actually be right lmao, I was gonna say Katakuri wins but nah, Sanji wins with the 1000 degree knife lol


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## Jay. (Dec 3, 2021)

YoungChief said:


> You might actually be right lmao, I was gonna say Katakuri wins but nah, Sanji wins with the 1000 degree knife lol


sanji knows how mochi works though


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## Dark Knight (Dec 3, 2021)

Make a Sanji vs King thread. I want to see something.


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## Jay. (Dec 3, 2021)

Dark Knight said:


> Make a Sanji vs King thread. I want to see something.


it's a tie


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Sanji heals.
> He recovered from a broken spine.
> His endurance is superior at this point.


Yeah but healing takes stamina too.

Sanji still noted he and Queen were getting exhausted and weakened from at best an hour of fighting all out. Katakuri could fight for 3 hours with a mortal injury before he chose to give up. He still had more in his tank.


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## maupp (Dec 3, 2021)

Where is the Poll?


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Yeah but healing takes stamina too.
> 
> Sanji still noted he and Queen were getting exhausted and weakened from at best an hour of fighting all out. Katakuri could fight for 3 hours with a mortal injury before he chose to give up. He still had more in his tank.



Yeah but Katakuri was significantly superior to Luffy, until Snakeman + Future Sight.
Katakuri could have indeed it, he was getting tired but not really injured.
Queen and Sanji were hurting each other. And in this match up, Sanji and Katakuri would fuck each other up too.
He's not lasting 3 hours with a hole in his stomach against Sanji.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Dark Knight (Dec 3, 2021)

So are people saying that Sanji is so fast that FS would be rendered useless?


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Yeah but Katakuri was significantly superior to Luffy, until Snakeman + Future Sight.


Still fought for hours with a mortal injury but ok.




Mylesime said:


> Katakuri could have indeed it, he was getting tired but not really injured.


He wasn't really injured from him stabbing himself?




Mylesime said:


> Queen and Sanji were hurting each other. And in this match up, Sanji and Katakuri would fuck each other too.


I doubt that but let's assume it's so.




Mylesime said:


> He's not lasting 3 hours with a hole in his stomach against Sanji.


Based on what? Katakuri was eating Snakeman hits after his stomach hole and had eaten Boundman blows before that as well.

And I'm not arguing an injured Katakuri vs a completely healthy sanji, that's absurd. I'm arguing for both to be fully healthy.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Dark Knight said:


> So are people saying that Sanji is so fast that FS would be rendered useless?


Appears so. Despite no evidence to support it


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Still fought for hours with a mortal injury but ok.



But Luffy wasn't significantly damaging him more severely before Snakeman. 


Kagutsutchi said:


> He wasn't really injured from him stabbing himself?



No. 
After he stabbed himself he endured that pain, but was basically using Luffy as a punching ball until Snakeman. He was aggravating the injury by moving. 
Against someone close in strength he would get hurt even more. 



Kagutsutchi said:


> I doubt that but let's assume it's so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When Snakeman was used it did not last 3 hours. 
Luffy caused most of his damage while using Gear 4.

Fresh Katakuri vs Fresh Sanji would be extreme diff. I give the edge to Sanji because he's more durable. 
I'm obviously not impeding Kat', he would obviously lose VS Sanji if he was hurt. The whole point of the stabbing was to equalize the. Playing field with Luffy


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## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2021)

So current Sanji is stronger than Luffy from a previous Arc? Am I getting it right?


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## Dark Knight (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Appears so. Despite no evidence to support it


Indeed. Frankly, Sanji has no chance of winning against Katakuri unless he has a counter for FS or his durability is so incredible that he can easily endure Katakuri's attacks such as block mochi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tenma (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji edges it. Future Sight doesn't mean Katakuri completely ignores being disadvantage din every stat, especially when Sanji has shown capable of competing with his CoO.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> So current Sanji is stronger than Luffy from a previous Arc? Am I getting it right?



Luffy had two massive power ups since then with 2 advanced forms of haki.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Luffy had two massive power ups since then with 2 advanced forms of haki.


Sooo..?

Is current Sanji stronger than WCI Luffy?


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## Whimsy (Dec 3, 2021)

Jay. said:


> sanji is using knives or swords on top of that cause katakuri is mochi


Lol this is actually a legit point, Oda should have made this happen


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Sooo..?
> 
> Is current Sanji stronger than WCI Luffy?



Of course.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Fresh Katakuri vs Fresh Sanji would be extreme diff. I give the edge to Sanji because he's more durable.


Let's agree to disagree


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Let's agree to disagree


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri is at a serious match-up disadvantage against Sanji. Katakuri's only window of opportunity is that sanji doesn't hit very hard. This would be extreme diff and I would give it to sanji tbh


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Sooo..?
> 
> Is current Sanji stronger than WCI Luffy?



He isn't stronger. It's match-ups

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Kamisori (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri high. He is on the same level as King.


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 3, 2021)

This also based on the notion that while Kizaru has some difficulty vs Marco he would low diff katakuri


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 3, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> Katakuri vs King probably goes either way
> 
> The fucking Katakuri downplay is ludicrous and it's primarily brigaded by....
> 
> ...



King is obviously stronger than even Roger and Whitebeard, how else would he beat Zoro.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Sooo..?
> 
> Is current Sanji stronger than WCI Luffy?


Yes, with the caveat that Luffy was still weaker than Katakuri at that point in time. 

Anyway, I'd say this is a high-difficulty fight for Katakuri. Sanji received a lot of boosts to his combat strength in the new chapter, but Queen is still weaker than Katakuri in every conceivable way outside of durability and arguably versatility.


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## Beast (Dec 3, 2021)

convict said:


> Sanji extreme difficulty.
> 
> We have been overrating Sanji's durability though it seems. It is not that impressive the way he was legitimately wounded by those unappealing attacks by Queen including getting dragged through a plaster wall? But he still is very durable and can regenerate. He can take a lot of Katakuri's hits. He is also significantly faster and can utilize his speed to overcome future sight even though going full throttle seems to exhaust him as mentioned by Queen. His attack power is definitely good enough now to take out Kats seeing how he is surely more powerful than WCI G4 Luffy and Queen is likely significantly more tough than Katakuri.


You think Sanji was hurt because he was only pummelled through plaster?


That’s what you’ve come to… after years and years of reading, what you picked up this week… was that Sanjis durability is not as impressive because he was bleeding wait for it, being pummelled through plaster?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ~Avant~ (Dec 3, 2021)

I don’t understand how anyone can say Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6 | Winner 1


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 3, 2021)

~Avant~ said:


> I don’t understand how anyone can say Sanji.


Much superior defense, superior attack power, comparable speed

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

We need a poll.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Brian (Dec 3, 2021)

~Avant~ said:


> I don’t understand how anyone can say Sanji.



Queen is just as strong as a YC1 in Two Piece but I'm not caught up to that yet.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Karma (Dec 3, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> So current Sanji is stronger than Luffy from a previous Arc? Am I getting it right?


I dont get this point

EL Sanji would kick W7's Luffy ass

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 3, 2021)

Karma said:


> I dont get this point
> 
> EL Sanji would kick W7's Luffy ass


Sanji and zoro are always around an arc behind luffy in power, so its reasonable to say right now sanji is stronger than wci luffy

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## PoopTart (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Sanji hasn't taken an injury as severe as Katakuri and still fought at a high-extreme level for 3 hours.
> 
> Man himself said that the at best 1 hour of going all out against Queen was already starting to tire him out


His bones were crushed against Queen and I am not gonna hold it against Sanji for quickly ending a fight.


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## GilDLax (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji just made a YC2 unable to even perceive him...DAT speed. Unless it's a one-time hyperbole scene.

Also CoO-wise Sanji has shown he could overcome FS and a cheapshot at that. Honestly when a guy with FS like Katakuri *blindsided* Sanji based on the very future he saw, that he already accounted for Sanji's dodge and yet Sanji still dodged it without so much as glancing or paying attention (he was all focused on Pudding) and even Katakuri himself was surprised then it's quite clear Sanji wouldn't be that outmatched in CoO

FS is the best kind of CoO so far but the Katakuri's version is quite limited, at least based on Katakuri's feats. All it means is you can actually see the future, that the vision appears in your mind and the action can be a bit further into the future. In terms of accuracy and range and whatnot I don't recall his FS being better than normal CoO. In fact Luffy dodged him more than anyone did as he admitted and Katakuri literally could not see Brook was about to take Caramel's photo or that Brulee was right around the corner when Luffy kidnapped her or Luffy's Snakeman will hit him from the side or behind. His FS only concerns what's in front of him. So rather than an upgrade, it seems to be a trade-off. Katakuri sacrifices other parameters to hone his front-view. If he truly saw the future, literally, there was no way he didn't see a Python reaching his side or that Luffy was gonna meet Brulee when he turned. Most glaring is Katakuri never had a single feat of sensing things far away in a wide area like in Skypiea or M3 sensing Caribou in Neptune's castle or Sanji's feeling Tashigi in danger vs Vergo.

Sanji's exoskeleton would compensate his lacking CoA feat (yes, Katakuri fodderized Ichiji but Sanji was already superhuman and tough without exoskeleton, in fact he beat Yonji's face to a pulp. So with his new durability on top his siblings are meh compared to him, I think). 

Finally Sanji can air-travel and has long-range attack like Hell Memories which are huge advantages. Katakuri's Awakening feat is actually worse than DD in terms of usage. He has not shown techniques that cover a vast area and can sprout tentacles to fight flying opponents.

I'd say Sanji can beat Katakuri extreme-diff now.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

PoopTart said:


> His bones were crushed against Queen and I am not gonna hold it against Sanji for quickly ending a fight.


Yeah and he healed himself and lost stamina


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## PoopTart (Dec 3, 2021)

Dark Knight said:


> So are people saying that Sanji is so fast that FS would be rendered useless?





Kagutsutchi said:


> Yeah and he healed himself and lost stamina


You say that like its a bad thing.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

PoopTart said:


> You say that like its a bad thing.


It's not a bad thing, he just loses stamina and can't last as long as Katakuri has.

Besides we have seen nothing from Queen to determine that blitzing him means you can blitz FS


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## PoopTart (Dec 3, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> It's not a bad thing, he just loses stamina and can't last as long as Katakuri has.
> 
> Besides we have seen nothing from Queen to determine that blitzing him means you can blitz FS


Though, we have seen Sanji use FS to dodge Katakuri but not the other way around.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 3, 2021)

PoopTart said:


> Though, we have seen Sanji use FS to dodge Katakuri but not the other way around.


Sanji doesn't have Future Sight. Dodging an attack from Katakuri (one of his slower attacks mind you) is possible for characters with really good CoO, but tagging Katakuri is where the problem starts and Sanji doesn't have the feats.


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## Sablés (Dec 3, 2021)

The speed shown in this chapter should sufficiently counter Future Sight. Sanji hits hard enough to seriously hurt Dinosaur Zoans where durability/endurance was Katakuri's least impressive quality. Meanwhile Sanji himself was tanking and regenerating from Queen's attacks. 

I don't care about the difficulty, but Sanji wins. This is the biggest bloom arc for the strawhats since (and likely including) Ennes Lobby.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

_Sanji surpasses Katakuri :

Speed 
Enhanced Durability
Recovery powers
Physicality
AP

Katakuri surpasses Sanji in :

Haki mastery_

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (Dec 3, 2021)

Queen is portrayed asbeing  much stronger than Jack. So he is probably close to Katakuri and if Sanji beats him he is on katakuris level IMO. So he wins Extremely diff.


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## Great Potato (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> And in this match up, Sanji and Katakuri would fuck each other too.

Reactions: Funny 12 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri.


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## MO (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Speed
> Enhanced Durability
> Recovery powers
> Physicality
> AP


definitely not speed. The last 2 are debatable too.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

MO said:


> definitely not speed. The last 2 are debatable too.



_With super speed at least Sanji has the most impressive display of speed we've seen.

And he's also normally a lot faster than before his enhancements compared to the version that blitzed Oven and dodged Katakuri's bullet in WCI._


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## MO (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _With super speed at least Sanji has the most impressive display of speed we've seen.
> 
> And he's also normally a lot faster than before his enhancements compared to the version that blitzed Oven and dodged Katakuri's bullet in WCI._


in the manga? or among the straw hats? 

he is faster probably but katakuri is super fast and on top of the fact that he can see the future. Sanji isn't out speeding katakuri.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

MO said:


> in the manga? or among the straw hats?
> 
> he is faster probably but katakuri is super fast and on top of the fact that he can see the future. Sanji isn't out speeding katakuri.



_Well i gave Katakuri the Haki department so i'm separating speed from CoO.

I also think Sanji is one of the characters that can connect attacks against Katakuri regardless of his better CoO given his feats. I mean who would if we don't even give Sanji after this display credit in that regard ?_


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## MO (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> I also think Sanji is one of the characters that can connect attacks against Katakuri regardless of his better CoO given his feats. I mean who would if we don't even give Sanji after this display credit in that regard ?


None. Luffy fight against katakuri showed. You either need to have fs yourself or you need to outlast him. Neither of which sanji has/can do.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

MO said:


> None. Luffy fight against katakuri showed. You either need to have fs yourself or you need to outlast him. Neither of which sanji has/can do.



_That's a no limit falacy. So without FS Kizaru can't connect with Katakuri ?

Btw, Luffy has FS an he's taking hits from all kinds of opponents._

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MO (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's a no limit falacy. So without FS Kizaru can't connect with Katakuri ?
> 
> Btw, Luffy has FS an he's taking hits from all kinds of opponents._


kizaru probably has it. The admirals displayed similar things to it at marineford. Besides that, they are portrayed to be above him so they get the benefit of the doubt. 

Oda is inconsistent when it comes to CoO usage.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dain Ironfoot (Dec 3, 2021)

I say for sure that Sanji's observation Haki is as good as Katakuri's or even better, we're talking about a character who sees an invisible enemy easily, his speed+sight haki+resistance would be a problem. Katakuri beat Luffy for over 8 hours and still lost

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Great Potato (Dec 3, 2021)

Dain Ironfoot said:


> I say for sure that Sanji's observation Haki is as good as Katakuri's or even better, we're talking about a character who sees an invisible enemy easily



I feel like that has less to do with Sanji's CoO and more to do with Queen's fat-ass causing the floorboards to creak with every step.

Reactions: Funny 5 | Optimistic 2


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## Dain Ironfoot (Dec 3, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I feel like that has less to do with Sanji's CoO and more to do with Queen's fat-ass causing the floorboards to creak with every step.


Even if that is, I find Sanji's CoO impressive, and if he'll become even more, his skill set will make up for the Conqueror's lack of Haki.


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## Captain Altintop (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji wins extreme (_mid) _diff. by now. I see Sanji being equal to King right now.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I feel like that has less to do with Sanji's CoO and more to do with Queen's fat-ass causing the floorboards to creak with every step.



No way unless Osome is deaf she would have heard something ......

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

I mean, invis doesn’t erase presence. Oda made sure to emphasize that when Sanji first went invis during the raid vs King. Basic CoO *should *still be able to find an invis target and Sanji specializes in it.

If we’re being honest, if it were meant to be something special, Oda did a bad job at portraying that because no comment was made on his CoO there. Kinda just happened.


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## Great Potato (Dec 3, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> No way unless Osome is deaf she would have heard something ......



Oda made a point to throw the _creak_ sound effect three times on that page. I don't know why he would have emphasized that if it didn't mean anything, this isn't Sanji's first invisible opponent so he already knows what to look and listen for. At the very least there's some vagueness to it.


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 3, 2021)

GilDLax said:


> Sanji just made a YC2 unable to even perceive him...DAT speed. Unless it's a one-time hyperbole scene.
> 
> Also CoO-wise Sanji has shown he could overcome FS and a cheapshot at that. Honestly when a guy with FS like Katakuri *blindsided* Sanji based on the very future he saw, that he already accounted for Sanji's dodge and yet Sanji still dodged it without so much as glancing or paying attention (he was all focused on Pudding) and even Katakuri himself was surprised then it's quite clear Sanji wouldn't be that outmatched in CoO
> 
> ...



This is premised on yc2 being a level instead of 'sanji made queen unable to perceive him'. If you replace queen with someone
of the same level who is fast or has future sight then the problem goes away. Even if we had someone overall weaker than sanji, let's say they were yc3 but their gimmick was super speed or observation.


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## Starrk (Dec 3, 2021)

Katakuri no-diff'd Ichiji like it was nothing, sure Sanji is much stronger now but are you guys really saying Sanji could beat someone that Luffy needed two Gear 4s to narrowly beat?
Christ the Sanjiwank is awful. And we have to deal with it for two weeks.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 2


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## neonlight (Dec 3, 2021)

Although I voted Sanji, I have doubts. Sanji's CoO was not shown much improvement this arc. As a look at the panels, it is increasingly seemingly like Sanji reacted to creaking sounds and not because he actually saw in invisible Queen like Fuji. If Kata's CoO>>Sanji's, then Kata wins.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

Starrk said:


> Katakuri no-diff'd Ichiji like it was nothing, sure Sanji is much stronger now but are you guys really saying Sanji could beat someone that Luffy needed two Gear 4s to narrowly beat?
> Christ the Sanjiwank is awful. And we have to deal with it for two weeks.


_
That's because it was a Luffy who was struggling in a team fight vs Cracker that same day to also win with multiple rounds of G4.

Cracker who should be on Jack's level.

Jack who's portrayed as significantly weaker than Queen._

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Dec 3, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Oda made a point to throw the _creak_ sound effect three times on that page. I don't know why he would have emphasized that if it didn't mean anything, this isn't Sanji's first invisible opponent so he already knows what to look and listen for. At the very least there's some vagueness to it.



I know Sanji perceived Queen. Which is what  Oda portrayed i think.
CoO allows the user to better hear voices among other things (feel intent, see auras, see potential future events).

But if a giant Dino  Cyborg was making loud metalical noises and like you said if his fat ass was making the floorboards creak,  just in front of the girl, less than 2-3 feet away she should have heard something. Unless once again she has some hearing disability.
And let's not forget the context, this girl is supposed to be cautious knowing how much damages both fighters were causing all over the place.

I don't think that Oda is trying to portray Queen's invisibility as something easy to spot, which would mean that the ability is almost useless...... but just that Sanji was able to detect and locate him.
Otherwise the cook would not have needed to use high speed movements to counter it in the first place.

This girl was convinced that no one was in that room, the pet didn't react to their presence either.
The logical conclusion is that both fighters were using some sort of stealth, which was effective, not that Queen was being loud and easy to detect....


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

_Sanji called out the body part that he was going to attack before making Queen visible again with his kick, so he had visual data on him to know exactly where to aim to hit that body part, while he was invisible._

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's because it was a Luffy who was struggling in a team fight vs Cracker that same day to also win with multiple rounds of G4.
> 
> Cracker who should be on Jack's level.
> 
> *Jack who's portrayed as significantly weaker than Queen.*_


I always see you say this, but feats sure don't support this at all. At what point do we stop ignoring feats for lolsamepanelappearences?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I always see you say this, but feats sure don't support this at all. At what point do we stop ignoring feats for lolsamepanelappearences?



_What feats exactly are required ? Large scale destruction ? Marco's biggest impressive destructive feat is crashing someone through a couple of walls.

He has feats of taking small amounts of damage and recovering from multiple name attacks from Marco, some of them taken in base, and same Marco making King bleed with a basic knee to the face.

Perospero who got portrayal not far off Jack this arc was shown as incapable of even standing around his fight with Sanji, getting caught in the crossfire and momentarily KO'ed in the begining of their fight.

Before Sanji's awakening he could have almost no diffed him, as he was holding everything back only trying to get him to wear the Raid Suit. 

Post awakening against a way faster Sanji he forced him to narrowly dodge attacks with his much faster eye beams, and used Niji's "light speed" technique




to quickly extend his neck and cause a huge electric shock which both damaged and stuned Sanji momentarily, making it so that he almost caught him in the follow up with the laser beams, and Sanji having to narrowly avoid those allowed Queen to catch him in the Winch attack.



This is a Sanji that's way faster than the Sanji that could blitz Veteran level characters in WCI or avoid Katakuri's candy bullets, as well as way way more durable, and with much faster recovery than a normal person, which allowed him to recover much faster from being stuned by the electric move.



Queen's attacks are powerful in their own right, and he's good enough with them to combo and connect with someone as fast as Sanji is now.


Unlike Jack he has a Dinosaur DF which was hyped by Zoro alongside the Dragon DF's for their durability and resilience. On top of that he also has a modified body. 

On top of that he has a large array of weaponry, stealth, or electricity based enhancements that can serve as defense shocking and damaging those who attack him, speed boost, utility stunning the opponent, or simply the damage done through the offensive output with him producing an electric charge comparable to Law's counter shock on Big Mom. 

He can bomb entire floors with his basic lasers, or shoot even faster Eye Beams that we've yet to see anyone defend from, and Sanji thought of as dangerous enough to constantly narrowly dodge. This not even getting into his Plagues.



Jack is basically a naked version of Queen stripped of all enhancements, with a weaker DF and worse base stats even at that._

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Gianfi (Dec 3, 2021)

Sanji extreme diff


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _What feats exactly are required ? Large scale destruction ? Marco's biggest impressive destructive feat is crashing someone through a couple of walls.
> 
> He has feats of taking small amounts of damage and recovering from multiple name attacks from Marco, some of them taken in base, and same Marco making King bleed with a basic knee to the face.
> 
> ...


Half of this is the equivalent of me saying "lolJack can turn into a mammoth and he uses swords to cut people." Queen does a whole lot of nothing despite all that he does and that's my point. None of this post answered the how was Queen portrayed significantly stronger than Jack bit.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Half of this is the equivalent of me saying "lolJack can turn into a mammoth and he uses swords to cut people." Queen does a whole lot of nothing despite all that he does and that's my point. None of this post answered the how was Queen portrayed significantly stronger than Jack bit.



_There's direct comparisons with characters that were presented as close to Jack and insignificant in relation to Queen, direct comparison to him taking attacks more potent than what was required to make King bleed even in base, and fair efficiency against an incredibily boosted Sanji in pretty much every aspect.

He couldn't dominate Sanji any more after a point because Sanji simply became that strong. He wouldn't dominate King or Marco either but he's still on an entirely different level from Jack._

Reactions: Like 2


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _There's direct comparisons with characters that were presented as close to Jack and insignificant in relation to Queen, direct comparison to him taking attacks more potent than what was required to make King bleed even in base, and fair efficiency against an incredibily boosted Sanji in pretty much every aspect.
> 
> He couldn't dominate Sanji any more after a point because Sanji simply became that strong. He wouldn't dominate King or Marco either but he's still on an entirely different level from Jack._


Again, release yourself from the shackles of same panel appearences. That's the only line of comparison between Jack and Peros. Jack fought the entire Sulong army by himself and won minus Neko and Inu of course. I agree that Queen is strronger by virtue of being a second commander, but *significantly* stronger? Just has not been shown.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Again, release yourself from the shackles of same panel appearences. That's the only line of comparison between Jack and Peros. Jack fought the entire Sulong army by himself and won minus Neko and Inu of course. I agree that Queen is strronger by virtue of being a second commander, but *significantly* stronger? Just has not been shown.



_It has been shown from the very first panel King and Queen were shown, and it continued to be shown for the rest of the arc. You're just being obtuse about it and not acknowledging the direct strength statements that have been made about Queen, the acknowledgement he received from a number of characters, the direct feats of dealing with Marco's named moves while basic moves from Marco could make King bleed, and so on.

Entirely different portrayal and entirely different tier of feats from Jack in relation to other 1,3+ bil characters.

The WG acknowledges his threat, Marco acknowledges his strength in relation to his threat and the feats are there. Just because Queen and Marco don't go around busting mountains doesn't mean that they lack feats._

Reactions: Like 2


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## Conxc (Dec 3, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _It has been shown from the very first panel King and Queen were shown, and it continued to be shown for the rest of the arc. You're just being obtuse about it and not acknowledging the direct strength statements that have been made about Queen, the acknowledgement he received from a number of characters, the direct feats of dealing with Marco's named moves while basic moves from Marco could make King bleed, and so on.
> 
> Entirely different portrayal and entirely different tier of feats from Jack in relation to other 1,3+ bil characters.
> 
> The WG acknowledges his threat, Marco acknowledges his strength in relation to his threat and the feats are there. Just because Queen and Marco don't go around busting mountains doesn't mean that they lack feats._


What was shown was a large age gap between them and the introduction for the first time of the other two. We'd already seen Jack. Same panel appearances are not the be all end all. Feats shown Queen being a lot more comparable to Jack than King. Regarding Marco, Queen was visibly more hurt and even admitted that it dealt damage to him. King had a couple small drops of blood. I don't see how this is a different tier feat lmao.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 3, 2021)

Conxc said:


> What was shown was a large age gap between them and the introduction for the first time of the other two. We'd already seen Jack. Same panel appearances are not the be all end all. Feats shown Queen being a lot more comparable to Jack than King. Regarding Marco, Queen was visibly more hurt and even admitted that it dealt damage to him. King had a couple small drops of blood. I don't see how this is a different tier feat lmao.




_I'm going to have to get a version of this that replaces King with Jack for you cuz that's the Wano arc you've been reading_

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Kroczilla (Dec 3, 2021)

> Jack is referred to as the Dragdown by both King and Queen
> King and Queen are the only calamities shown to have consistently issued orders to the F6
> Zoro couldn't decide right away which path would be easier between King and Queen
> Both shown soaking up hits from Marco, even rising up simultaneously at one point
> Both praised for their strength as expected of their bounty being above the 1 billion mark
>You could give Jack three supernova worth of bounties and he still wouldn't be equal to Queen in that regard. Queen would Surpass King's bounty with two or three EB lvl bounties.

But apparently Queen is a lot more comparable to Jack.

Some folks ought not to be taken seriously.

OT. I would still favour Katakuri with high - extreme diff. Fighting a FS user (especially an proven expert like Katakuri) without one of your own is just too difficult.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## PoopTart (Dec 4, 2021)

Conxc said:


> What was shown was a large age gap between them and the introduction for the first time of the other two. We'd already seen Jack. Same panel appearances are not the be all end all. Feats shown Queen being a lot more comparable to Jack than King. Regarding Marco, Queen was visibly more hurt and even admitted that it dealt damage to him. King had a couple small drops of blood. I don't see how this is a different tier feat lmao.


Queen captured Big Mom.
Jack got stalemated by Shutenmaru.


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## Beast (Dec 4, 2021)

And getting ragdolled in another Sanji thread. 

@Conxc 
You never learn do you?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Great Potato (Dec 4, 2021)

I don't agree with the attempt to discredit Jack like the Calamities are just a duo and he doesn't have his own portrayal alongside them.

It's faulty to use panels of King and Queen being portrayed alongside each-other as evidence that they're in some different realm from Jack, when the reason Jack wasn't in those panels was because he left early on to support Kaido on the roof. Jack was also illustrated alongside them many times prior to him leaving. The three of them were bunched together sharing panels overseeing Big Mom being chained and tied up at the prison. They were the three Beast Pirates standing up on the balcony with Kaido in his big speech illustrating the monsters of the crew all together. When the Flying 6 were mouthing off Jack and King got menacing panels not phased by the challenge...


*Spoiler*: __ 










When Jack is in the area he too is presented right there with them in the panels.

As far as acknowledgement goes...

_"Hope you didn't think you stand a chance against us. We didn't even feel that. Drought! Plague! Wildfire! We're the three Calamities that protect Kaido! And we're called "Lead Performers" because nobody gets the better of us!!!" _ -Queen

These are Queen's very own words praising Jack alongside himself and King as his peer. He made a point to include Jack in that comment towards Sanji as someone he and Zoro don't stand a chance against and can't get the better of. It's very clear that despite his trolling Queen does hold his strength in a very high regard. Something people neglect entirely in favor of an off-hand comment about Queen insulting him despite that very same page has King calling Queen is incompetent and dead weight as well. Jack respects their strength because they're both stronger than him, but Queen himself respects King's strength and rants about his power to Sanji while the Wildfire has not returned the favor.

For more acknowledement these are the words of the reputed World's Strongest Creature Kaido at the top of the food chain...

_""That's enough! Jack is one of my handpicked lead performers! I will not stand back and watch as one of my most valued men is killed. No... this does not make you weak! They're just that strong!"_ -Kaido

Somehow Marco acknowledging Queen as tough is some great praise, but the strongest Pirate who called the likes of Doflamingo a complete weakling reassuring us that Jack is indeed very powerful and worthy of his Calamity position means nothing? Jack demonstrated weight over the Flying 6 as well. The first thing he did when he returned from the Rooftop was put them in their place and order them to stay out of his way because they are too weak, and that was despite him being massively injured at the time.

Though I guess I went on a tangent since I'm not sure how Jack is even relevant to this battle anyways. I felt like weighing in because I feel he gets too written off and slept on, but he doesn't really pertain to Katakuri or Sanji regardless.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2


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## Beast (Dec 4, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I don't agree with the attempt to discredit Jack like the Calamities are just a duo and he doesn't have his own portrayal alongside them.
> 
> It's faulty to use panels of King and Queen being portrayed alongside each-other as evidence that they're in some different realm from Jack, when the reason Jack wasn't in those panels was because he left early on to support Kaido on the roof. Jack was also illustrated alongside them many times prior to him leaving. The three of them were bunched together sharing panels overseeing Big Mom being chained and tied up at the prison. They were the three Beast Pirates standing up on the balcony with Kaido in his big speech illustrating the monsters of the crew all together. When the Flying 6 were mouthing off Jack and King got menacing panels not phased by the challenge...
> 
> ...


the only mention of Jack is in relation to Queen and he really does not hold a candle. Be it feats/ hype or portrayal. 

The portrayal is very clear this far in and Jack being a calamity is more of a fluke and Oda went out of his way to shit on all of Jacks impressive portrayal. Failed mission after failed after failed mission, Jacks one and only redeeming quality is his will to get back up and his endurance. Just another when guy that was absolutely shitted on by Oda. 

Wasn’t Jack the first billion berry man we saw? It’s just sad Oda did this to him. Doesn’t even have a named attack.


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## Perrin (Dec 4, 2021)

Dark Knight said:


> So are people saying that Sanji is so fast that FS would be rendered useless?


They’re saying he wouldn’t need to


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## GilDLax (Dec 4, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> This is premised on yc2 being a level instead of 'sanji made queen unable to perceive him'. If you replace queen with someone
> of the same level who is fast or has future sight then the problem goes away.


Funny how you immediately contradict your first sentence with your second. So what is this ''same level'' then?




Commanderbilli said:


> Even if we had someone overall weaker than sanji, let's say they were yc3 but their gimmick was super speed or observation.


Sure, people can have different aptitudes, but Kizaru wouldn't blitz Akainu just because speed is his thing and not Akainu's LMAO


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## Commanderbilli (Dec 4, 2021)

GilDLax said:


> Funny how you immediately contradict your first sentence with your second. So what is this ''same level'' then?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, people can have different aptitudes, but Kizaru wouldn't blitz Akainu just because speed is his thing and not Akainu's LMAO



I think you know what I'm trying to say here. Just because you can blitz queen doesn't mean you blitz every yc2s because
queen's observation haki and combat speed are lower than people who are obstensibly weaker than him because those attributes
are his weaknesses.

Kizaru should beable to blitz Akainu. Marco and Vista already did that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GilDLax (Dec 4, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> I think you know what I'm trying to say here


So you can't explain the contradictory? Good to know!




Commanderbilli said:


> Just because you can blitz queen doesn't mean you blitz every yc2s


So? Whoever said Sanji would? 




Commanderbilli said:


> Kizaru should beable to blitz Akainu. Marco and Vista already did that.


Except they didn't LMAO Cheapshot isn't blitzing


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 4, 2021)

Someone explain to me how Sanji's speed is somehow beyond FS?

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Great Potato (Dec 4, 2021)

Beast said:


> the only mention of Jack is in relation to Queen and he really does not hold a candle. Be it feats/ hype or portrayal.
> 
> The portrayal is very clear this far in and Jack being a calamity is more of a fluke and Oda went out of his way to shit on all of Jacks impressive portrayal. Failed mission after failed after failed mission, Jacks one and only redeeming quality is his will to get back up and his endurance. Just another when guy that was absolutely shitted on by Oda.
> 
> Wasn’t Jack the first billion berry man we saw? It’s just sad Oda did this to him. Doesn’t even have a named attack.



Kaido himself tells us that Jack being a Calamity is not a fluke and Queen agrees. What are the context of Jack's _"failed missions" _that makes them so embarrassing?


*Spoiler*: __ 



_Zou-_ Only a failure in the sense that they didn't find Raizo. Jack would have genocided the nation if the Strawhats didn't show or he didn't get called off to retrieve Doflamingo. 

_Marine Convoy-_ Doflamingo was being escorted by Sengoku, Fujitora, and Tsuru. Kaido himself wouldn't be comfortable with those odds yet Jack still managed to sink half of their fleet before going down. That he did any damage at all was looked at as great hype back then.

_Zunisha- _He fought an island sized elephant in the middle of the ocean so it's to be expected, there was a thread a few months ago about its striking power and the entire thread agreed it was a top tier attack. There was a ton of hype on the forum when we saw him on the ocean floor afterwards looking barely damaged from the attack and more annoyed than anything.

_Rooftop- _I don't think that consider a failed mission unless you earnestly thought he was supposed to take out all 9 Scabbards on top of the entire Sulong tribe. Dude wanted to stop that massive Sulong army from reaching Kaido which he did and was still standing when Kaido told him he had done more than enough and to leave the rest to him. 

_Sulong Inu- _Frankly I don't see reason to believe that Queen is much stronger than the Sulong Dukes if at all, and they took quite an effort to finally bring Jack down. He ran through the Sulong tribe, got tag-teamed by the Sulong Dukes, ran through the Mink tribe again, and then needed two more rounds of Sulong in his fight with Inu to finally keep him down for good. I'd say that's respectable even if we didn't see any of it. 




I feel a lot of the Jack downplay is revisionist, because a lot of those feats were looked at in a good light when we first heard them. Jack is the weakest of the Calamities, but people out here acting like he's actually the 7th member of the Flying 6 rather than being in a group with King and Queen.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 4, 2021)

As long as zoro and sanji have some kind of distant comparison, people will downplay sanji to oblivion and hype zoro up to the sky

If in a hypothetical scenario, sanji defeated kizaru and zoro lost to smoothie, people would be saying smoothie is yonkou level and kizaru is an imposter, not impressive, vice admiral level


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## Van Basten (Dec 4, 2021)

Kata is on a different level from Queen.


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## Beast (Dec 4, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Kaido himself tells us that Jack being a Calamity is not a fluke and Queen agrees. What are the context of Jack's _"failed missions" _that makes them so embarrassing?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I think it’s to do with the sequence these things take place. Jack had all the hype before wano, he had everything going for him… but again and again, Oda kept giving him the short end of the stick. 

Zou- before we got a flashback of Jack, looked devastated that Jack the drought had came through… but when we get a FB, first we see is Jack being body slammed or flipped by either the cat or dog. 

Getting back DD-  yeah, I was mad hyped for Jack despite losing because as you said look at who he went against but… there is a case where you must stop and think, is this character wild nature more stupidity then courage? And Jack I’ve come to see is 50/50 lol. Imo at least. So, can’t keep giving him credit for having the heart but nothing else to go with it. 


In wano- I didn’t like that he was bullied but given he is almost half the age, I was still hyped for Jack and then Oda had him get double tapped by Ashura doji (I know he didn’t get beat or anything but you can understand the portrayal that leaves him) then vs the monks on the roof Oda didn’t give him the panel time, which is just ridiculous… then he got his hybrid and that was more smile then DF. And yeah, you could say sulong dukes aren’t too far behind Queen… but it’s very clear that Oda let that happen to Jack alongside Perospero who is not even a YC3 (close but still not there) to draw parallel from rather then Queen and King, who started their fights together and only after Jack/ F6 were beat iirc

So, Jack had all the hype but didn’t live up to one, not even one… Oda handled him poorly and truthfully, as far as strength goes from what we’ve seen… Jack is barely above F6 level.he is a calamity and given his age, he still has a lot of potential but what we’ve seen and Oda has clearly portrayed King and Queen on another level completely to Jack their little brother.


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## Great Potato (Dec 4, 2021)

Beast said:


> I think it’s to do with the sequence these things take place. Jack had all the hype before wano, he had everything going for him… but again and again, Oda kept giving him the short end of the stick.
> 
> Zou- before we got a flashback of Jack, looked devastated that Jack the drought had came through… but when we get a FB, first we see is Jack being body slammed or flipped by either the cat or dog.
> 
> ...



Really the flaw is that Oda wants to emphasize that the Calamities are all incredibly tough freaks of nature, and his way of demonstrating that is to let them get hit a lot and do very little to dodge or block. To the audience it looks like they're being clowned, but I'm pretty sure Oda's intent is to show how tough they are for taking those hits without slowing down. Queen suffers the same problem, the fandom thinks he looks like an idiot because he's wrestling with Chopper, but Oda's intention was likely for Queen to look cool and tough for burning out the clock against Monster Chopper while laughing about how little damage it did. Queen has spent half his panel-time as a punching bag then bragging about how little damage the attacks did. King has been doing more but falls into a similar pattern where he takes big hits to show how tough he is, and Kaido has been memed for his fair share of punching bag chapters to showcase his durability. it was the same thing with Daz Bones and Jabra.

Jack was mainly an unfortunate victim of all the off-paneling because we barely got a look of what he had going on the offensive side of things to balance it out, so we have to fill in some of those blanks. Oda's intent wasn't to pair Jack with Perospero but to pair Inuarashi with Nekomamushi. Oda wanted to go heavy on the duality between Cat and Dog and there wasn't another opponent who could have filled that role. It's balanced by the fact that Jack and the Dukes were all heavily injured at the time, but I think people try taking too much from that scene.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Dec 4, 2021)

Katakuri.


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## Beast (Dec 4, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Really the flaw is that Oda wants to emphasize that the Calamities are all incredibly tough freaks of nature, and his way of demonstrating that is to let them get hit a lot and do very little to dodge or block. To the audience it looks like they're being clowned, but I'm pretty sure Oda's intent is to show how tough they are for taking those hits without slowing down. Queen suffers the same problem, the fandom thinks he looks like an idiot because he's wrestling with Chopper, but Oda's intention was likely for Queen to look cool and tough for eating free hits from Monster Chopper and laughing about how little damage it did. Queen has spent half his panel-time as a punching bag then bragging about how little damage the attacks did. King has been doing more but falls into a similar pattern where he takes big hits to show how tough he is, and Kaido has been memed for his fair share of punching bag chapters to showcase his durability. it was the same thing with Daz Bones and Jabra.
> 
> Jack was mainly an unfortunate victim of all the off-paneling because we barely got a look of what he had going on the offensive side of things to balance it out, so we have to fill in some of those blanks. Oda's intent wasn't to pair Jack with Perospero but to pair Inuarashi with Nekomamushi. Oda wanted to go heavy on the duality between Cat and Dog and there wasn't another opponent who could have filled that role. It's balanced by the fact that Jack and the Dukes were all heavily injured at the time, but I think people try taking too much from that scene.


I would agree… but that’s about it and will (not haki). Jack is on their level in terms of sheer will, endurance and durability but everything else is kinda lacking. 

Jack definitely was one of the more upsetting turn of events alongside Hawkins and Drake(so far), that Oda looks to have to completely dropped the ball. 

It hurts even worse knowing many chapters was actually spent running up the stairs to the roof, could have easily been used for them.


This shit better not happen with Kidd if I’m honest. ray

Reactions: Like 1


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## icyBankai (Dec 4, 2021)

Sanji extreme post wano.

People probably underestimate and look down on Kata because he was defeated by Luffy.

If we see Luffy vs Kata as a victory that heavily favored Luffy due to his supreme luck, Kata still remains very impressive.

Early wano Luffy could probably be a borderline YC1 and wasn't a full-fledged one until the beginning of the rooftop battle.

That could help make some sense in case folks are just scaling and saying Kaido 1-shot Luffy so somehow Kata is now weaker than King/Queen.


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## Great Potato (Dec 4, 2021)

Beast said:


> I would agree… but that’s about it and will (not haki). Jack is on their level in terms of sheer will, endurance and durability but everything else is kinda lacking.
> 
> Jack definitely was one of the more upsetting turn of events alongside Hawkins and Drake(so far), that Oda looks to have to completely dropped the ball.
> 
> ...



Well, I won't go further into the Jack's placement here because I think it's derailing the thread, this is Sanji vs Katakuri.

I'd say Kid is already certified, and now it's just a question of whether he takes it all the way or not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Dec 4, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Well, I won't go further into the Jack's placement here because I think it's derailing the thread, this is Sanji vs Katakuri.
> 
> I'd say Kid is already certified, and now it's just a question of whether he takes it all the way or not.


Lol, ahh shit. So many Sanji threads, I couldn’t tell you what thread this is. 


And yeah, Oda just gotta stop being half assed with it.


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## Corax (Dec 4, 2021)

Jack is incomparable to Queen. Probably Queen can even solo 2 Jacks. Jack has no defense from viruses,no mobility,no hax etc. He is just a big mammoth.


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## Chaos Hokage (Dec 4, 2021)

Between these two characters as of now (Chapter 1034), I think Katakuri would defeat Sanji. The Yonko Commander's Haki and his Awakening DF ability would be too much for Sanji to handle.


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2021)

Commanderbilli said:


> Katakuri is at a serious match-up disadvantage against Sanji. Katakuri's only window of opportunity is that sanji doesn't hit very hard. This would be extreme diff and I would give it to sanji tbh


How? Kata’s Mochi is not weak to fire/heat like Pero’s candy. If anything it’s shown resistance (Kata matching Red Hawk with just a regular mochi armament punch, Kata having his own fire-based move he uses where he explodes his arm and sets his Block Mochi fist on fire).

Kata has range and AOE over Sanji with awakening.

And another thing to keep in mind is Snakeman even with its speed and Luffy having gotten his own FS was only as effective against Katakuri as it was because the constant acceleration at each turn made it harder to predict even with FS. Comparatively Sanji’s attacks while fast are much more straightforward. He doesn’t zig zag all over the place or have an attack come back around even if it misses at first.

Sanji’s kick moves just don’t really have a tricky aspect to them for the most part.

And another thing is unlike Queen’s swords which did nothing impressive before getting broken we know Kata’s trident can tear straight through Luffy’s side like it was wet paper. So we know at least it’s no normal weapon and should not just break on Sanji’s body like Queen’s sword did and should actually have a chance at drilling through Sanji’s body (which isn’t a wound Sanji’s shown he can regenerate from as well as blunt force trauma).

Lastly Kata’s Ultimate Move has armament spikes on it that increase its lethality, blitzed Snakeman Luffy when it was first used and created a gigantic crater in the mirror world you couldn’t see the bottom of looking from above. So Sanji’s got no counter to that (the move Sanji used this chap to finish Queen wasn’t nearly as impressive) and it’s got just as good of a chance if not better to puncture him than the trident.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Conxc (Dec 5, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I don't agree with the attempt to discredit Jack like the Calamities are just a duo and he doesn't have his own portrayal alongside them.
> 
> It's faulty to use panels of King and Queen being portrayed alongside each-other as evidence that they're in some different realm from Jack, when the reason Jack wasn't in those panels was because he left early on to support Kaido on the roof. Jack was also illustrated alongside them many times prior to him leaving. The three of them were bunched together sharing panels overseeing Big Mom being chained and tied up at the prison. They were the three Beast Pirates standing up on the balcony with Kaido in his big speech illustrating the monsters of the crew all together. When the Flying 6 were mouthing off Jack and King got menacing panels not phased by the challenge...
> 
> ...


Dude, they don’t care about any of that. At some point I just stop trying to argue with them because like I said in another thread, they debate in 2s and 3s with a bunch lurking waiting to back eachother no matter how incorrect they are. It’s a waste of time. Let them tell it Queen is in a different stratosphere because he appeared in some panels with King. As you just showed, Jack has his praises and has been included several times with his peers, but they don’t acknowledge that. I’m just glad some people actually read the manga.


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## GiantForehead (Dec 5, 2021)

So...how does sanji hit him?


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## Corax (Dec 5, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> And another thing to keep in mind is Snakeman even with its speed and Luffy having gotten his own FS was only as effective against Katakuri as it was because the constant acceleration at each turn made it harder to predict even with FS. Comparatively Sanji’s attacks while fast are much more straightforward. He doesn’t zig zag all over the place or have an attack come back around even if it misses at first.


Why do you think he can't zig zag?Even by pre TS feats he can do this. His skywalk is similar to geppo and soru. He can control his body in the air freely.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 5, 2021)

Hard to say?

If Kat can keep up consistently with Sanjis speed i think he wins.

If he can't Sanji loses.

If Sanji kept the Raid Suit he would win this for sure in my mind, extra speed, and even more durability i would be confident in saying he just wears down Kat and defeats him through endurance/having better AP then Kat. 

So going with Extreme diff for now. Could easily go to sanji if the fight continues next week so we shall see

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 5, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> Katakuri vs King probably goes either way
> 
> The fucking Katakuri downplay is ludicrous and it's primarily brigaded by....
> 
> ...



Zoro has better feats then Whole Cake Island Luffy. Like to the point i would say your a troll if you think otherwise. 

So yea King>Katakuri. As everyone and their grandma predicted before the arc even started.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Piecesis (Dec 5, 2021)

We all know Kat > Sanji > King > Queen > Zoro

All jokes aside

Idk what's with these mental gymnastics. The general consensus is that Sanji mid diffed Queen and most people don't think Katakuri could mid diff queen, some prior to this chapter release thought Queen would beat katakuri.

That's why there's so many kat threads.


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## Lord Melkor (Dec 5, 2021)

i could actually see it going either way with current Sanji.


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## forkandspoon (Dec 5, 2021)

Katakuri wins, I think Luffy would even have difficulty defeating him again.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Terraforce (Dec 5, 2021)

Starrk said:


> Katakuri no-diff'd Ichiji like it was nothing, sure Sanji is much stronger now but are you guys really saying Sanji could beat someone that Luffy needed two Gear 4s to narrowly beat?
> Christ the Sanjiwank is awful. And we have to deal with it for two weeks.


I'll never get how people run to the "Sanji wank" excuse when people have been saying Zoro would beat Kata for months. Sure there's a gap between them, but is it seriously that crazy to think Sanji could potentially win as well?

If anything, people downplaying Queen is way worse of a narrative imo. He's not just the third strongest member of one of the strongest crews in the verse for nothing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kylo Ren (Dec 5, 2021)

sanji extreme diff.

He has great coo and speed, the two ability that can reduce the effectiveness of FS if not outright negate it.

and also exoskeleton and durability to withstand Katakuri offensive power.


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## ~Avant~ (Dec 5, 2021)

Sanji does not have the defense needed to survive an attack from Kata’s trident.


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2021)

Corax said:


> Why do you think he can't zig zag?Even by pre TS feats he can do this. His skywalk is similar to geppo and soru. He can control his body in the air freely.


Well, it’s not the fighting style he uses. And If we ignored characters fighting styles I could just claim Kata could use strats he’s never used before either like using awakening to turn the ground into Mochi, deforming his own body into Mochi to go underground, and either controlling awakening to attack while still underground in an air pocket (basically attacking without any risk of being counter attacked) or popping up behind the opponent for a surprise attack.

And just zigzagging while the example I gave still wouldn’t be the same as Culverin regardless since once Sanji actually initiates an attack if he misses he can’t just keep it going from behind the opponent. Or massively accelerate at every turn. The attack just loses its momentum after missing, unless you can point to an attack from Sanji where that hasn’t been the case?


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## Mylesime (Dec 5, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> I'll never get how people run to the "Sanji wank" excuse when people have been saying Zoro would beat Kata for months. Sure there's a gap between them, but is it seriously that crazy to think Sanji could potentially win as well?
> 
> If anything, people downplaying Queen is way worse of a narrative imo. He's not just the third strongest member of one of the strongest crews in the verse for nothing.



This.
I have no issue with anyone giving the edge to Katakuri, since both fighters are close and have a legitimate shot at winning based on skillsets and portrayals.
However acting like this hypothetical battle is one sided is just laughable.


*-The Queen downplay is even more laughable:*

Feats (vs Big Mom, Marco,etc), portrayal, hype be damned Queen is all of a sudden a scrub uncomparable with the sweet commander.... Guess he survived on the Livefloor all this time thanks to sheer luck.

Facts don't matter.
Zoro stating that the challenge posed by King and Queen is comparable?
Doesn't mean shit.


Marco explaining that he was in trouble because of both calamities?
Doesn't mean shit either. It obviously means that Queen did not hurt him and he did not need to use any stamina/firepower  for Queen, nor did the calamity endure any attack from Marco.



Circular nonsensical thinking. Queen is all of a sudden weak because Sanji knock him down this chapter, the same guy that took pretty well Big Mom's beatdown while not using any skills nor tools.





Nope Big Mom OS him (with the same reasoning  i guess everyone involved in a fight on Onigashima got OS the minute they suffered a down)



Big Mom obviously was hakiless despite the fact that we saw on WCI what happened to a distraught Big Mom, with a weakened haki:



And Queen is slow since he could not keep up with the cook's movements this chapter, despite the fact that he successfully tagged Sanji several times and had no issue tagging Marco, Luffy or Zoro.
Nope the dude is slow, just watch.






I even saw some claim that Sanji spotted Queen thanks to the floorboards creaking in front of a hoe and a mouse terrified and cautious of the two fighters...... neither the pet nor the hooker heard anything but Queen was logically being loud and noisy. Anything rather than simply aknowledging Vinsmoke's feat, here CoO.



Sanji has one of the best combination when it comes to Speed, CoO (spotted an invisible dude), and mobility.
If Sanji can't tag Katakuri , who the fuck can ? 2 or 3 lads in the verse?

Many have a hard time giving the character credit.
Durability wise he absolutely dominates in this match up.


Getting out of a fight against Queen relatively in good shape is a feat.

It helps when one can recover from that shit:


The same posters have no issue claiming that characters far slower and with less efficient CoO would have no trouble tagging the commander on the other hand.
Add to that his exoskeleton and his enhanced recovery rate where he far outclasses the sweet commander?
I fail to see how anyone could claim that victory is out of the equation with a straight face ,  or that this would not be a hell of a fight for the commander at best.
Worse than that , saying that Sanji can push back is described as insane.


No choice but to come to the conclusion that there is no point talking about this character with some seriously, nonsensical waste of time.....
I'm sorry , just  can't take several readers seriously when it comes to that topic, how can someone for example admit not having read whole ass arcs and yet be so sure and confident with his/her takes.
You can't make this shit up.


It's been a good laugh tough, one just needs to realize that the whole thing is a joke and take it lightly for entertainment purpose.



This fight is close.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Starrk (Dec 5, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> I'll never get how people run to the "Sanji wank" excuse when people have been saying Zoro would beat Kata for months.


First off Zoro would give Kata trouble but wouldn't win in the end. WCI Luffy needed two uses of G4, manipulation of Brulee's DF, and Kata willingly stabbing himself just to eek out a win.
Second, when I say 'Sanji wank' I mean exactly what you see on the main topics page: a plethora of threads dedicated to people claiming Sanji can beat a whole new tier of characters because he's able to go toe-to-toe with a particularly powerful character.
It's so tiresome to see all these Zoro and Sanji fans at each others' throats week in and week out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Terraforce (Dec 5, 2021)

Starrk said:


> First off Zoro would give Kata trouble but wouldn't win in the end. WCI Luffy needed two uses of G4, manipulation of Brulee's DF, and Kata willingly stabbing himself just to eek out a win.
> Second, when I say 'Sanji wank' I mean exactly what you see on the main topics page: a plethora of threads dedicated to people claiming Sanji can beat a whole new tier of characters because he's able to go toe-to-toe with a particularly powerful character.
> It's so tiresome to see all these Zoro and Sanji fans at each others' throats week in and week out.


Obviously both would give Kata trouble. My point is did you also say the same about Zoro when people said he was above Kata? Because that narrative has been going around for at least half a year now. Just seems like people come out the woodwork to say Sanji can't beat Kata when Zoro>Kata was such a prevalent perception for months on end.

On the topic of the Sanji threads, that has absolutely nothing to due with wank. This happens the moment ANY given character exhibits a significant new feat. Hell even Robin had a bunch of topics on her following the Black Maria fight.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Starrk (Dec 5, 2021)

It happens a lot more with Sanji, because people can't accept that he and Zoro are always going to be within spitting distance of each other.
Whenever one shows impressive feats, that camp illustrates their feverish devotion by claiming that character is now significantly stronger than the other.


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## Piecesis (Dec 5, 2021)

Starrk said:


> It happens a lot more with Sanji, because people can't accept that he and Zoro are always going to be within spitting distance of each other.
> Whenever one shows impressive feats, that camp illustrates their feverish devotion by claiming that character is now significantly stronger than the other.


Things always get taken out of proportion when rabid Zoro fans try to put Zoro at a level close to Luffy and then the Sanji fans put their character reletively close to Zoro. It doesn't help that Oda made Kaido one-shot a luffy that defeated Katakuri and then have Zoro scar kaido.

Everything follows A > B > C logic rather than looking into depth the victories and each one has an agenda to push. 

Like someone said earlier it's inconceivable for Zoro to struggle on a character luffy defeated an arc ago, it's unacceptable for them. So king ends up being >>> Kat and then Sanji fans take the protrayal of Queen being close to king which ends up making Queen > Kat.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Conxc (Dec 5, 2021)

Starrk said:


> It happens a lot more with Sanji, because people can't accept that he and Zoro *are always going to be within spitting distance of each other*.
> Whenever one shows impressive feats, that camp illustrates their feverish devotion by claiming that character is now significantly stronger than the other.


That's just not true though, lol. I guess it depends on what each individual defines as "spitting distance", but Zoro will always be clear cut ahead of Sanji as Luffy will be to Zoro. A lot of people can't just leave it as Luffy > Zoro > Sanji which is how things will always be. The problem comes when guys start saying shit like Sanji pushes Zoro to extreme. That has and never will be the case.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GiantForehead (Dec 6, 2021)

Piecesis said:


> Like someone said earlier it's inconceivable for Zoro to struggle on a character luffy defeated an arc ago, it's unacceptable for them. So king ends up being >>> Kat and then Sanji fans take the protrayal of Queen being close to king which ends up making Queen > Kat.


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## devil's bride (Dec 6, 2021)

Katakuri is still the Yc1 with the most impressive feats so far, mainly in terms of Haki's dominance. In this sense, Sanji can be considered very fast on account of Yc2 being unable to see him at full speed, although Queen couldn't handle Sanji's mobility and speed long before the Germa genes awakened — not long unlike what Sanji did to Oven in WCI — but his movement speed is still less than Snakeman's attack speed, range, and unpredictability combined with Luffy's newly acquired FS in WCI. And even Black Mamba was surpassed by the speed of Katakuri + FS while being affected by a self-inflicted wound.

Another thing is that Katakuri was also recognized as the toughest CoA user Luffy had faced so far, even managing to inflict significant damage on Boudman using blunt blows. Sanji and Queen currently still don't compare in any aspect of CoA and AP to Katakuri or Luffy G4, which in other words means that Sanji will have to work much harder to overcome Kata's CoA in contrast to basic defense of CoA from Queen while it will take much more damage from Katakuri than Queen with her attacks copied from Germa.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 6, 2021)

Piecesis said:


> Like someone said earlier it's inconceivable for Zoro to struggle on a character luffy defeated an arc ago


Should I find you the panels of early Wano Luffy vs Kaido and compare them to how Zoro handled Kaido in the rooftop?

Or can you find them yourself?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Piecesis (Dec 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Should I find you the panels of early Wano Luffy vs Kaido and compare them to how Zoro handled Kaido in the rooftop?
> 
> Or can you find them yourself?


I've already addressed the elephant that is Luffy vs Kaido but it's taken out of proportion, why? Because I don't think the scabbards are touching a G4 luffy yet they managed to counter kaido, pierce his skin and such, except Zoro left a permanent scar, how do you think the scabbards would fare against snakeman or katakuri?

Zoro never handled kaido, he got handled himself until he was given a magic pill.

Once you're able to be honest with that you'll be able to see past your Zoro biases and accept that characters like Katakuri aren't getting the luffy treatment, ever. King isn't vastly above kat, if at all, neither is Queen, following that logic Zoro isn't close to Luffy.

Edit: Just to clarify I'm not saying kat could take all of the scabbards I'm saying being in a 1v5 against kaido doesn't make you impressive, Zoro isn't 1v1 Kaido, that never happened so his feats mean as much as Killers here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 6, 2021)

Piecesis said:


> Because I don't think the scabbards are touching a G4 luffy yet they managed to counter kaido, pierce his skin and such


The scabbards were clearly and explicitly shown to be far stronger against Kaido than they were against anyone else. They were using Oden's will to become stronger.



Piecesis said:


> how do you think the scabbards would fare against snakeman or katakuri?


All 9 scabbards absolutely destroy WCI G4 Luffy or Kata lol. Ashura by himself was close to Jack, Inu and Neko same, Denjiro is stronger than any of them, Kawamatsu was hyped as Ashura level too. And this was before the Oden buff they got in the rooftop
Do you think WCI Luffy could handle 5 YC3+ at the same time? Are you insane?

And Zoro's attack completely shat on a 5 YC3 combined attack.



Piecesis said:


> Zoro never handled kaido, he got handled himself until he was given a magic pill.


Ah so Zoro never overpowered Kaido's twister, never cut his scales or his fire breath, never permanently scarred him? Cool


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## Beast (Dec 6, 2021)

Wait… wait a damn minute, so you mean to tell me, when the scabbards are talking about Odens haki and Kaidou supports it… it happened and makes sense. 


But Zoros uses Enma and Kaidou recognises Odens sword and haki, NOPE not how haki works… welp.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 6, 2021)

Beast said:


> Wait… wait a damn minute, so you mean to tell me, when the scabbards are talking about Odens haki and Kaidou supports it… it happened and makes sense.
> 
> 
> But Zoros uses Enma and Kaidou recognises Odens sword and haki, NOPE not how haki works… welp.


Kaido recognized Oden's presence. Not his haki. He called it "Strange haki" not "Oden's haki"

So yes, that's not how haki works

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Dec 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Kaido recognized Oden's presence. Not his haki. He called it "Strange haki" not "Oden's haki"
> 
> So yes, that's not how haki works


He also specifically said that was Odens sword, you think Kaidou knows all the blade types because I wouldn’t leave it up to memory for a fish. 

Strange haki isn’t what you would refer to as someone using their own haki. 


Stop acting like you know exactly how Haki works, Oda been making it up as we go along.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Starrk (Dec 6, 2021)

Beast said:


> Stop acting like you know exactly how Haki works, Oda been making it up as we go along.


The only explanation Oda could give (and it would still be bullshit and obvious that he does make it up as he goes) is that every instance of Haki pre-TS is shown hiw Luffy perceives it. He doesn't understand how it works so he has no idea what he's seeing. It's only after his training with Rayleigh that Haki is shown as it is now.
Headcanon I know.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Beast (Dec 6, 2021)

Starrk said:


> The only explanation Oda could give (and it would still be bullshit and obvious that he does make it up as he goes) is that every instance of Haki pre-TS is shown hiw Luffy perceives it. He doesn't understand how it works so he has no idea what he's seeing. It's only after his training with Rayleigh that Haki is shown as it is now.
> Headcanon I know.


Tbh, I stopped even thinking about it. Now, I’m here for the fun and pulling peoples leg using their logic against them. 
I’m more comfortable waiting for the arc to finish, so we can see it in full rather bits.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Piecesis (Dec 6, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> The scabbards were clearly and explicitly shown to be far stronger against Kaido than they were against anyone else. They were using Oden's will to become stronger.


Irrelevant, retcons in powerlevels happen all the time in shonen and they weren't explicitly that strong, it's just a mixture of kaido having low showings to boast them up also that it's multiples which work in their favour which make it drastically unimpressive.


Strobacaxi said:


> All 9 scabbards absolutely destroy WCI G4 Luffy or Kata lol. Ashura by himself was close to Jack, Inu and Neko same, Denjiro is stronger than any of them, Kawamatsu was hyped as Ashura level too. And this was before the Oden buff they got in the rooftop
> Do you think WCI Luffy could handle 5 YC3+ at the same time? Are you insane?
> 
> And Zoro's attack completely shat on a 5 YC3 combined attack.


I never said any of them would beat all 9 scabbards, only a Yonkou could replicate that feat, I even clearly highlighted that part. Putting Katakuri in the same situation by replacing any of the RT5 and he's doing better than any of them not called Current Luffy. (And maybe law and kidd depending on how their fight with BM ends) WCI luffy needed a bunch of handicaps to even win that fight.


Strobacaxi said:


> Ah so Zoro never overpowered Kaido's twister, never cut his scales or his fire breath, never permanently scarred him? Cool


Again, scabbards literally did the same thing, it's not that impressive. Scarring Kaido was impressive but it was sorta downplayed at the same time since it barely made him budge.

YC1 have shown to be more powerful than Zoro so far and it was reinforced with King decimating him. King isn't doing that to Kat. Zoro will win the upcoming fight but that's the extent of things for him he's not close to Luffy which is the main point here, especially when his attacks are supposed to pirece which is supposed to give him an edge but luffy's blunt attacks end up doing far more.


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## Grinningfox (Dec 6, 2021)

Kata has way more going for him here 

I’d say he takes it high


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 8, 2021)

Tenma said:


> Sanji edges it. Future Sight doesn't mean Katakuri completely ignores being disadvantage din every stat, especially when Sanji has shown capable of competing with his CoO.


What stats?
CoO
Sanji got caught by slow ass Drake, Queen. Katakuri toyed with Boundman, G2, Snakeman, Those are much faster than Queen/Drake.

It's okay Sanji is comparable to Marco now. Sanji can beat Queen in 15 minutes. Marco would need 1 hour to beat Queen. Sanji is not stronger than Cracker who needed G4 Luffy+Nami+homies to beat in 11 hours let alone Katakuri.

Saying Sanji>Katakuri is no different than saying Sanji>>>>>Boundman Luffy+Nami+homies. Reread WCI.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 8, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> Sanji is not stronger than Cracker


Unless we see Cracker face someone who beats Queen in a direct fight, I don't think it's okay to say he's stronger than Queen. 

And also, are you using the Perospero~Jack scaling for this?


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Unless we see Cracker face someone who beats Queen in a direct fight, I don't think it's okay to say he's stronger than Queen.
> 
> And also, are you using the Perospero~Jack scaling for this?


Not only based on Jack and perospero. Also based on feat.

Boundman+Nami+homis took Cracker in 11 hours.
Sanji with exo power up is enough to beat Queen in 15 minutes.

Current Sanji is no way above Boundman Luffy+Nami+homies combined.

There is a big gap between Cracker and Queen.


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## Kagutsutchi (Dec 8, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> Boundman+Nami+homis took Cracker in 11 hours.
> Sanji with exo power up is enough


Boundman at that point was only stronger than Doflamingo. Sure I can buy him being stronger than the Dukes at that point as well as Jack(since the scabbards begging Luffy for him to lend his strength wouldn't make sense otherwise), but then Jack is way weaker than Queen.

And Luffy wasn't in Boundman for 11 hours too, he was in base running around and eating biscuits for a majority of the time.




Traveling Swordsman said:


> There is a big gap between Cracker and Queen.


Can't believe I have to defend Queen.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 8, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Boundman at that point was only stronger than Doflamingo. Sure I can buy him being stronger than the Dukes at that point as well as Jack(since the scabbards begging Luffy for him to lend his strength wouldn't make sense otherwise), but then Jack is way weaker than Queen.
> 
> And Luffy wasn't in Boundman for 11 hours too, he was in base running around and eating biscuits for a majority of the time.


Cracker pretty much can hang with Boundman for 30 minutes. He faced Boundman before Sanji's flashback and after the flashback, Cracker's face was still clean. I don't think 1 hour Boundman can beat Cracker since even with 30 minutes time limit, Cracker's face was clean.


Queen on the other hand lost in less than 15 minutes against Sanji. Sanji needs more than 11 hours if he wants to beat Cracker. He can beat Queen in less than 15 minutes though so there is a big gap between Cracker and Queen.



Kagutsutchi said:


> Can't believe I have to defend Queen.




Jack = Perospero is undeniable truth at this point. Now Perospero hype is also Sweet Commanders hype so Snack is comparable to Queen. Smoothie/Cracker is a league above Queen. It's not a shame being lower than someone who Luffy in G4+Nami+homies needed 11 hours to beat.


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## Marciano (Dec 18, 2021)

Sanji vs Queen finished

Sanji post TS > Luffy G2/G3
Sanji exoskeleton > Luffy G4
Sanji ifrit jambe > Luffy Adv CoO

Sanji >= Katakuri


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## Zouma (Dec 18, 2021)

Marciano said:


> Sanji vs Queen finished
> 
> Sanji post TS > Luffy G2/G3
> Sanji exoskeleton > Luffy G4
> ...


Let me clear it for you.

Sanji pre exoskeleton<<Base WCI Luffy
Sanji post exoskeleton<<Boundman Luffy
Sanji Ifrit Janbe<<King Kong Gun

Current Sanji dies to G4 Luffy+Nami+homies who needed 11 hours to beat Cracker.

Katakuri>Cracker>Current Sanji

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Empathy (Dec 18, 2021)

Sanji passed out immediately after beating Queen, meaning it was probably close to an extreme difficulty fight. Sanji’s not on YC1-level yet.


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## Marciano (Dec 18, 2021)

Cracker > Doflamingo I agree, but let's not exaggerate.

Cracker "without" biscuits holds 11 hours Luffy, Nami and homies? it's all a gimmick to eat, spend the night and get to the tankman = operation to the Oda 

Otherwise we would have Cracker > Katakuri 




Empathy said:


> Sanji passed out immediately after beating Queen, meaning it was probably close to an extreme difficulty fight. Sanji’s not on YC1-level yet.


Queen we can put it close to those levels. Sanji got a clear win, it fits in my opinion


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## LordVinsmoke (Dec 19, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Sanji passed out immediately after beating Queen, meaning it was probably close to an extreme difficulty fight. Sanji’s not on YC1-level yet.


Queen only landed 2-5 attacks on sanji and those were the germa attacks Sanji passed out due to stamina Sanji did more damage to himself than queen did Solid High Diff


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 19, 2021)

Ap sanji>>kata
Durability sanji>>>>kata
CoO kata >> sanji
Speed sanji has shown better attack speed, kata has shown better reaction speed.
Sanji wins extreme diff

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Empathy (Dec 19, 2021)

GrandMasterVinsmoke said:


> Queen only landed 2-5 attacks on sanji and those were the germa attacks Sanji passed out due to stamina Sanji did more damage to himself than queen did Solid High Diff



Eh, one of those attacks Queen landed crushed Sanji’s spine. Exhausting your stamina to beat an opponent can still indicate an extreme diff fight, but it’s not like using an exoskeleton should drain his stamina, as it was just a latent, genetic attribute that finally kicked in; and it’s not like using Haki + DJ has been indicated to be extremely stamina taxing before—it’s pretty much standard for how Sanji fights. I’m not buying the, _“It was just stamina issues,_” excuse for Sanji here. I’m sure he’s tired, but he’s also accumulated a lot of damage since the war started, and it’s not like his healing just negates any damage he takes back to 100%.


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## LordVinsmoke (Dec 19, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Eh, one of those attacks Queen landed crushed Sanji’s spine. Exhausting your stamina to beat an opponent can still indicate an extreme diff fight, but it’s not like using an exoskeleton should drain his stamina, as it was just a latent, genetic attribute that finally kicked in; and it’s not like using Haki + DJ has been indicated to be extremely stamina taxing before—it’s pretty much standard for how Sanji fights. I’m not buying the, _“It was just stamina issues,_” excuse for Sanji here. I’m sure he’s tired, but he’s also accumulated a lot of damage since the war started, and it’s not like his healing just negates any damage he takes back to 100%.


Are you referring to Queen breaking his bones? 
Queen has not damaged sanji enough for anyone to say extreme diff the ideal extreme diff fight in OP  is Zoro Vs Daz Bones
Zoro injuries and as you can see sanji has not accumulated damage anywhere near this

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Eustathios (Dec 20, 2021)

It can go either way.


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## Perrin (Dec 20, 2021)

Not sure we have an in-manga example of someone with CoC losing to someone without CoC do we?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Dec 20, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Sanji passed out immediately after beating Queen, meaning it was probably close to an extreme difficulty fight. Sanji’s not on YC1-level yet.



_Keep in mind though that for over 90% of the fight Sanji was way weaker than he was for the final 2 minutes of that fight when he started fighting back after the awakening of his exoskeleton.

A lot of Sanji's difficulty and exhaustion comes from the fact that he refused to use the Raid Suit through out the fight, and only received his two Arc power ups right at the end of his fight ( Exoskeleton with all the Germa boosts + Ifrit Jambe ).

So scaling him based on how tired he was at the end of this fight is rather unreliable. A much weaker Sanji will get a lot more tired and damaged running around through Onigashima escorting Luffy and Zoro, fighting both King and Queen for a bit, and taking on Queen and pushing himself to contend with him before his upgrades  _


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## BenMazino01 (Dec 24, 2021)

forkandspoon said:


> Katakuri wins, I think Luffy would even have difficulty defeating him again.


Thank you for not downplaying the strongest YC1 and think logically..


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## BenMazino01 (Dec 24, 2021)

Sanji's still probably a little bit above Cracker.. He's not ready to fight someone like Katakuri yet..

Kata's Armament : Extremely powerful.. Hurt Luffy's hand. Hurt G4 Luffy.. Exoskeleton isn't enough to take the beating..

Kata's Observation : He can spam FS as much as he wants.. No touching him unless Sanji has observation level close enough to him..

Very versatile DF + Awakened
 Extremely Fast and Agile (Can compete with G4 Boundman & Snakeman Luffy easily)

What can Sanji possibly do to a man of this Calibre ? As much as I like Sanji, he's still not strong enough to take on someone like Katakuri..


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## Chip Skylark (Dec 24, 2021)

Katakuri has speed/strength to match G4 and FS. He definitely takes this.


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## Oda Report (Dec 24, 2021)

Sanji.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 25, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 25, 2021)

forkandspoon said:


> Katakuri wins, I think Luffy would even have difficulty defeating him again.


Luffy stomps the piss outta kata

Reactions: Winner 5


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 25, 2021)

BM pirates wank is crazy. The more disciplined crew also has commanders above all the bp commanders (?) outside of king(?)


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## cry77 (Dec 25, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Not sure we have an in-manga example of someone with CoC losing to someone without CoC do we?


Chinjao lost to Lao G.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BladeofTheMorning (Dec 25, 2021)

To me, Sanji, before all of Wano, Katakuri. 

CoC does does not mean you are going to win for sure. Kaido said only a few can coat their attacks in CoC and use it as an offensive measure. Not sure if Kat can do that, he hasn't shown it. 

If I recall correctly, Sanji has future sight as well does he not? Did Oda not confirm this? Someone, if you can clear it up that would be great. 

Mochi is a sugary substance no? The heat from Sanji would be able to distort it in my opinion. Sanji has the attack power and speed now to let Kat know he is worthy of being one of the wings of the PK. 

Sanji takes it extreme in my humble opinion. Tired of downplaying him when he's progressed far, that to  I'd say Zoro > Sanji. 

CoC users who have lost to those without it (possibly) -> Ace Vs BB, Ace vs Akainu and yeah, that's all I can think of.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 25, 2021)

BladeofTheMorning said:


> To me, Sanji, before all of Wano, Katakuri.
> 
> CoC does does not mean you are going to win for sure. Kaido said only a few can coat their attacks in CoC and use it as an offensive measure. Not sure if Kat can do that, he hasn't shown it.
> 
> ...


Current Sanji dies to G4 Luffy+Nami+homies who needed 11 hours to beat Cracker. Katakuri murks him. Only YC1 Sanji can beat is Marco.



Oda Report said:


> Sanji.


Current Sanji dies to G4 Luffy+Nami+homies who needed 11 hours to beat Cracker. Katakuri murks him. Sanji might have a chance against King's equal Queen or Marco.



DarkRasengan said:


> Ap sanji>>kata
> Durability sanji>>>>kata
> CoO kata >> sanji
> Speed sanji has shown better attack speed, kata has shown better reaction speed.
> Sanji wins extreme diff


Current Sanji dies to G4 Luffy+Nami+homies who needed 11 hours to beat Cracker.

QUeen durability is trash though KOed by 2 non haki Big Mom attacks so Sanji hurt him is not ap feat for Sanji, Sanji got hurt by bullets. Katakuri tanked Boundman, self stab Mogura, Snakeman attacks.

Katakuri shits on Sanji in every categories. Sanji might have a chance against Queen's equal King or Marco.


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## BladeofTheMorning (Dec 26, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> Current Sanji dies to G4 Luffy+Nami+homies who needed 11 hours to beat Cracker. Katakuri murks him. Only YC1 Sanji can beat is Marco.


Do me a favor, and this is no joke or hint of insult, how long did the fight against Kat and Luffy last? If it was less than 11 hours does that mean Cracker > Katakuri? 

Sanji has progressed much since WCI, I am still in the stance he takes Katakuri extreme diff. The strawhats evolve during their fights, Sanji would unleash something new against Kat if anything.


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 26, 2021)

BladeofTheMorning said:


> Do me a favor, and this is no joke or hint of insult, how long did the fight against Kat and Luffy last? If it was less than 11 hours does that mean Cracker > Katakuri?
> 
> Sanji has progressed much since WCI, I am still in the stance he takes Katakuri extreme diff. The strawhats evolve during their fights, Sanji would unleash something new against Kat if anything.


Luffy who fought Katakuri had FS so that was stronger Luffy.

Headcannon Sanji didn't train after WCI until he fought Queen. Exoskeleton makes Sanji from being negged by G4 WCI Luffy to being high diffed by G4 WCI Luffy. Katakuri mid diffs current Sanji. Pre exo Sanji who fought Queen =  Sanji who got smacked around by Daifuku.


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## Perrin (Dec 26, 2021)

Traveling Swordsman said:


> Headcannon Sanji didn't train after WCI until he fought Queen.


Sanji gets stronger with every meal now that the 99 recipes have been learnt.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Traveling Swordsman (Dec 26, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Sanji gets stronger with every meal now that the 99 recipes have been learnt.


Never stated though so it's assumption for now.


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## Perrin (Dec 26, 2021)

cry77 said:


> Chinjao lost to Lao G.


Chinjao was nerfed following his Luffy fight. See his chat with Sai after fight.
I imagine it was just like whiteboard who couldn’t use his haki properly


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## TheWiggian (Dec 26, 2021)

Can Sanji tag Katakuri?


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 26, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Can Sanji tag Katakuri?


Id say with his speed feats yes, luffy in snakeman couldnt become invisible for a long period of time with just his speed, sanji can


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## TheWiggian (Dec 26, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Id say with his speed feats yes, luffy in snakeman couldnt become invisible for a long period of time with just his speed, sanji can



Luffy in snakeman constantly had his fists coming from different angles, not visible to Katakuri until he focussed on CoO again, Sanji can barely keep up that speed for seconds. Also wouldn't Katakuri figure out where he'd go, same way he did with python and later on with black mamba. He saw all movement paths. Queen is not Katakuri either, one is a slow tank with no focus on observation while the other is a nimble assassin with future sight.

If Sanji would've been matched against a fast opponent like King for example, there would be an argument but Queen?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perrin (Dec 26, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Luffy in snakeman constantly had his fists coming from different angles, not visible to Katakuri until he focussed on CoO again, Sanji can barely keep up that speed for seconds. Also wouldn't Katakuri figure out where he'd go, same way he did with python and later on with black mamba. He saw all movement paths. Queen is not Katakuri either, one is a slow tank with no focus on observation while the other is a nimble assassin with future sight.
> 
> If Sanji would've been matched against a fast opponent like King for example, there would be an argument but Queen?


Yeah.
I think katakuri with a jelly bean is more dangerous than queen with a laser.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 26, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Luffy in snakeman constantly had his fists coming from different angles, not visible to Katakuri until he focussed on CoO again, Sanji can barely keep up that speed for seconds. Also wouldn't Katakuri figure out where he'd go, same way he did with python and later on with black mamba. He saw all movement paths. Queen is not Katakuri either, one is a slow tank with no focus on observation while the other is a nimble assassin with future sight.
> 
> If Sanji would've been matched against a fast opponent like King for example, there would be an argument but Queen?


When luffy and zoro tried to get to the roof, queen blitz grabbed them with his zoan mouth

Also its not about queens speed, queen is a YC 2 and cant even perceive sanji


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## TheWiggian (Dec 26, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> When luffy and zoro tried to get to the roof, queen blitz grabbed them with his zoan mouth
> 
> Also its not about queens speed, queen is a YC 2 and cant even perceive sanji




You mean the obvious gag scene where both annouce right in front of Queen, ignoring him that they will go to the rooftop? 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Terraforce (Dec 28, 2021)

Empathy said:


> Sanji passed out immediately after beating Queen, meaning it was probably close to an extreme difficulty fight. Sanji’s not on YC1-level yet.


People also seem to forget that Sanji went into that fight hella beat up by Black Maria. It's not like he started that fight fresh.

A full health Sanji probably would have been pushed to no greater than high diff.


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## Chip Skylark (Dec 28, 2021)

Terraforce said:


> People also seem to forget that Sanji went into that fight hella beat up by Black Maria. It's not like he started that fight fresh.
> 
> A full health Sanji probably would have been pushed to no greater than high diff.


It's not like Queen was fresh himself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Terraforce (Dec 28, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> It's not like Queen was fresh himself.


Queen lost so it's moot. The entire point of mentioning Sanji not being fresh is that he came into the fight weakened which justifies him falling out without it necessarily being an extreme diff. If two fighters fighting at 50% and one wins but passes out, reasonably it makes sense to assume that the victor wouldn't be pushed to the extent of passing out as if they were at 100%. Sanji passed out because he was enduring a lot of pre existing damage.

Also I mentioned Black Maria, but Sanji also fought off both King and Queen by himself for a brief moment and was still fighting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GeoNation (Dec 29, 2021)

Extreme diffing Queen does not make Sanji capable of defeating Katakuri. Sanji is still in the yc2 range

Reactions: Like 3


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## LordVinsmoke (Dec 30, 2021)

GeoNation said:


> Extreme diffing Queen does not make Sanji capable of defeating Katakuri. Sanji is still in the yc2 range


Again it was a high diff  Sanji is a Yc2+ at the very least


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## GeoNation (Dec 31, 2021)

GrandMasterVinsmoke said:


> Again it was a high diff  Sanji is a Yc2+ at the very least


How was it high diff when Sanji couldn't even finish his sentence before passing out? Meaning he was already pushed to his limits...clearly extreme diff.

Sanji vs Jyabura was a high diff. Sanji after the fight had enough strength to spare to go do other things.
This wasn't the case with Sanji v Queen


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## LordVinsmoke (Dec 31, 2021)

GeoNation said:


> How was it high diff when Sanji couldn't even finish his sentence before passing out? Meaning he was already pushed to his limits...clearly extreme diff.
> 
> Sanji vs Jyabura was a high diff. Sanji after the fight had enough strength to spare to go do other things.
> This wasn't the case with Sanji v Queen


Pushed to his limits by who? not Queen Sanji did more damage to himself then Queen did Ifrit Jambe depleted all of sanjis stamina so sanji fainted


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## Terraforce (Dec 31, 2021)

GeoNation said:


> How was it high diff when Sanji couldn't even finish his sentence before passing out? Meaning he was already pushed to his limits...clearly extreme diff.
> 
> Sanji vs Jyabura was a high diff. Sanji after the fight had enough strength to spare to go do other things.
> This wasn't the case with Sanji v Queen


Sanji entered that fight beat up by Black Maria. Then mid fight with Queen, they had King jump in for a period as well. Then yet again getting surprised by Queen and getting crushed by a move that was stated to crush "masters of armament haki." This wasn't a pure straightforward 1v1 with both combatants at near full capacity. Sanji was dealing with a lot of residual damage.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 1, 2022)

_Sanji started this arc YC3- level and at that level he wasted most of his stamina and took  most of the damage he did through out the arc which eventually caused him to be exhausted.

After his power up Sanji took down Queen in pretty much a minute, without taking any more significant damage.

If Sanji would fight Queen again, he would beat him with a lot more ease at his current level. If you put Sanji at his current level vs Katakuri, he's one of the most well suited non top tiers to defeat him._


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## Van Basten (Jan 1, 2022)

Kata still wins. Low end of extreme diff.

Sanji is a low YC1 fighter.


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## GeoNation (Jan 1, 2022)

GrandMasterVinsmoke said:


> Pushed to his limits by who? not Queen Sanji did more damage to himself then Queen did Ifrit Jambe depleted all of sanjis stamina so sanji fainted


That supports my point even more.
If to you, Sanji had to deplete his stamina to defeat Queen then he was pushed to his limit...hence an extreme diff match


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## GeoNation (Jan 1, 2022)

Terraforce said:


> Sanji entered that fight beat up by Black Maria. Then mid fight with Queen, they had King jump in for a period as well. Then yet again getting surprised by Queen and getting crushed by a move that was stated to crush "masters of armament haki." This wasn't a pure straightforward 1v1 with both combatants at near full capacity. Sanji was dealing with a lot of residual damage.


Queen was also damaged by Marco and wasted stamina on chopper.
Those are all excuses. Sanji being surprised by Queen's technique doesn't change anything


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## Conxc (Jan 1, 2022)

I think Katakuri wins.

Regarding his fight with Queen, it's painfully obvious that if he started his fight with his DNA powers fresh and Queen was fresh, Sanji would *at worst *mid diff him.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jan 1, 2022)

Fire melts mochi, Sanji got this.


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## LordVinsmoke (Jan 1, 2022)

GeoNation said:


> That supports my point even more.
> If to you, Sanji had to deplete his stamina to defeat Queen then he was pushed to his limit...hence an extreme diff match


Queen has not damaged sanji enough for anyone to be saying extreme diff

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 1, 2022)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> Fire melts mochi, Sanji got this.


Tell that to Luffy when Kata clashed with Red Hawk not even using a named technique. 

Or to Kata when he blew up his own Block Mochi arm to use it as a projectile with Grilled Mochi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Jan 1, 2022)

GeoNation said:


> Extreme diffing Queen does not make Sanji capable of defeating Katakuri. Sanji is still in the yc2 range


Exactly. I’d peg him above all YC2 but under all YC1. People are not understanding how strong the 1st commanders are. The weakest one just pushed Zoro to extreme diff to the point he fainted after.


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## Baroxio (Jan 2, 2022)

I think Sanji would win, but Zoro would lose, despite also thinking that Zoro is stronger than Sanji.

Why? Matchup advantage. 

In order to defeat Katakuri, you need extremely high speed combined with great Observation Haki. The first is something Sanji has showed in spades during his fight with Queen, where he moves so fast that a YC2 level opponent can't hope to keep track of him. I rate that kind of speed extremely highly, ever the more so against a powerful and experienced New World opponent. I would easily place him on Gear 4's speed tier, personally. 

Which brings us to the second thing you need to defeat Katakuri - great Observation Haki. Against Luffy, Katakuri's future sight was capable of predicting not just how Luffy would attack, but how Luffy would attempt to defend, as well. When Luffy would try to raise a hand to do something, Katakuri's observation haki was strong enough to stop him before he even moved. However, against Sanji, the same Katakuri with the same Future Sight was completely unable to prevent Sanji from dodging his attack. 

Granted, it was a ranged attack (melee attacks would be much harder to avoid), and I certainly don't think Whole Cake Island Sanji could have kept up with him for long, but it's a significant feat nonetheless, given the importance of that moment. But what's more important still, is the fact that this isn't Whole Cake Island Sanji that we're dealing with here. Exoskeleton Sanji explicitly has far faster super speed. If a slower Sanji had enough CoO to dodge Katakuri's attack without being pre-empted, then a far faster Sanji should be more than capable of dodging most of Katakuri's arsenal.

Compare this to Zoro, who has more than enough attack power to deal with Katakuri, but lacks feats in the two crucial areas of speed and Color of Observation (relative to Katakuri).

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## bil02 (Jan 2, 2022)

Does Mihawk or Big Mom lose to Katakauri too?

I mean Mihawk probably has very good coo with his Hawkeyes but he certainly didn't show any great Coo feats,his speed feats are also nowhere to be seen.

Big mom's case is even worse,she has neither good coo nor speed feats but her homies give her numbers advantage.

I also used to think Zoro will lose to Katakauri before Rooftop but the king fight has clearly cemented the fact that whoever Zoro fights in the top commander range,he is going to adapt around any tricks and win as Zoro is just straight up stronger so tricks(Fs) don't really mean much at the end of the day.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Conxc (Jan 2, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> I think Sanji would win, but Zoro would lose, despite also thinking that Zoro is stronger than Sanji.
> 
> Why? Matchup advantage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, odd take. Zoro wouldn’t have to beat anyone out in a foot race. He needs an extremely fast attacking speed, which all of his finishers have as they are blitzing attacks. Zoro’s CoO was good enough to completely anticipate where King would attack him from in his high speed form even though he vanished. Not to mention, Katakuri himself said that you have to keep a calm mind to optimize your CoO. Once Zoro lands an attack, which *will *severely hurt him, there goes his composure and there goes his FS as we saw vs Luffy. Difference being he won’t have anywhere near as much time to regain his composure.


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