# Goku Enters LOTR



## Nevermind (Jan 1, 2015)

Since there's so many LOTR threads around recently. *This is 23rd Bodoukai Goku.*

How far does he get?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 1, 2015)

Which age?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 1, 2015)

I'd assume the entire verse.


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## Nevermind (Jan 1, 2015)

Mostly focused on the events of the book itself.


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## trance (Jan 1, 2015)

Doesn't Goku hold the speed advantage? 

I know he can't beat the Valar. Not too sure about everyone else.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Goku's problem is that he's dumb as dog shit in a verse with two or three of the better low mid range telepaths in fiction. So if he slows down for one step to say talk to Saruman or fuck around with Sauron..then you'd need a second war of wrath to deal with a kid who tanked an island slagging attack.

Eru should be at a level where he can one shot the DBU though


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## Iwandesu (Jan 1, 2015)

the lord of rings has stuff above high end solar system level and mftl speed ?
because this is whiss in a nutshell
as for the match saurou should mindfuck him


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> the lord of rings has stuff above high end solar system level and mftl speed ?
> because this is whiss in a nutshell
> as for the match saurou should mindfuck him



Eru is a low to mid tier skyfather

so you know...Bill and his teachers power means fuck all against a universal reality warper.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 1, 2015)

isn't Eru universal?

I thought that was cube level or w/e


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## Iwandesu (Jan 1, 2015)

no problem i just had no idea LOTR had this kind of stuff


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> isn't Eru universal?
> 
> I thought that was cube level or w/e



Cubes multiversal its why Sentry got such an enormous power up when he offed Molecule Man.

 higher end Skyfathers like Odin, Zeus and the wizard tend to have feats that are in the universal to very low end plus.

Eru is more or less on the low end of that. He made a universe that's essentially ours..our universe isn't all that impressive. Its a creation feat and a damn solid one, Odins done similar albiet not on the same scale on the fly to protect people from the bleed off from his fights and the like.



iwandesu said:


> no problem i just had no idea LOTR had this kind of stuff



Fair enough They have one guy...basically, which is the big boss.

Morgoth if you go with end times prophecy does destroy the sun and if you take Varda's creation of stars as it was described literally she would throw them into the skies 

I'm not keen on giving any Valar sans end of days Melkor that level of "offensive" power though...these guys did create stars and the like but it was energy that they "invested" into reality and its not easily recovered. So its not like Varda can just turn around and hurl suns at you in a vs match or some shit..

So I tend to place them closer to planet level on the low end of that.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 1, 2015)

So Skyfathers are universal?

man I had them pegged at galaxy level

my tiers are screwy


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## Red Angel (Jan 1, 2015)

Well beings like Osse can move small countries around casually, so maybe a higher end Maia like him could be a match, if not outright win. Maybe


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> So Skyfathers are universal?
> 
> man I had them pegged at galaxy level
> 
> my tiers are screwy



Odin destroys multiple Galaxies as a side effect of powering up, gets into fights that put the entire universe at risk, channels a cosmic abstract to help him boost his stats enough to repair the damage he did to the verse and the like. You have other high ends like SHAZAM brawling the Specter in a fight that sends the rock of eternity smashing through reality so violently it causes bleed offs between dimensions that spawn nightmares.

Hell Mephisto who is below high end Skyfathers rumbled with Galactus in a battle that was affecting the universe outside his realm.

What happened is "destroying a galaxy" is the feat the mack daddy of Skyfathers Odin is most famous for, but people forget it was done without meaning to do it..

An attack that destroys a galaxy is like..the absolute bare minimum to get into that tier and even then, barring some major hax said character would be fodder to the rest of the clubhouse. 

also Define universal..

because the tiers seem so general people end up lowballing the fuck out some characters while thinking others are stronger than they are. 

universal as in "can create pocket universes, realities and effect things on a universal scale with some bleed off being beyond that?" then yes...higher end SF's should be there. Eru should be like, the bottom rung of that level within the Skyfather tier. 



Skarbrand said:


> Well beings like Osse can move small countries around casually, so maybe a higher end Maia like him could be a match, if not outright win. Maybe



I mean Goku's best feat at the time is still well below that...but they'd be having to take Goku's punishment too..


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## Red Angel (Jan 1, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I mean Goku's best feat at the time is still well below that...but they'd be having to take Goku's punishment too..



Yeah true that, the question of their durability and whether it could tank Goku, that and Goku should be a fair amount faster


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## Wan (Jan 1, 2015)

Eru is supposed to be a true omnipotent.  He doesn't exactly fit into a comic book cosmology.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 1, 2015)

He's faster and got more destructive ability than most. On the other hand the true forms of Valar and Maia are intangible so stalemate. Some spirits are continental and have some decent H4X like mental attacks that would give them the win.

But he'd go far for sure. 



Wan said:


> Eru is supposed to be a true omnipotent.  He doesn't exactly fit into a comic book cosmology.



Odin is also considered Omnipotent a lot by other gods in his verse. Doctor Manhattan was considered Omnipotent in his verse. Omnipotent is a subjective term and being Omnipotent in LOTR via multi Galaxy to universal levels won't mean much in a setting with tons of universals and multiversals.

Kubik a cosmic cube can hold Cubed being Beyonder's universe in his hand yet he's nothing to say Living Tribunal who is below TOAA. Abraxas has crushed multiple universes with his hand and it took the Ultimate Nullifier resetting the whole Multiverse to take him out.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Skarbrand said:


> Yeah true that, the question of their durability and whether it could tank Goku, that and Goku should be a fair amount faster



Granted if Osse just tosses islands at him out of range..



Wan said:


> Eru is supposed to be a true omnipotent.  He doesn't exactly fit into a comic book cosmology.



He's not by feats and he's certainly not beyond the likes of the Sentry to say nothing about how easily the LT would end it


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 1, 2015)

And yeah Odin or some top tier Skyfather would be enough for Eru. He could telepathically take Eru considering he'd orders of magnitude even above Xavier and such telepaths.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

"In this battle I shall unleash such power that it would shatter all the souls of all the mortals! As such I shall create a pocket dimension and place all mortals in this part of the universe there until the fight is at last ended!"

Classic Odin


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 1, 2015)

Oh the one where he created a planetary time stop and moved everyone to a dimension he created. Best part was he gave some of his power Loki prior to that. Classic Thor/Marvel stuff was awesome with that faux shakespeare style speak.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 1, 2015)

Wan said:


> Eru is supposed to be a true omnipotent.



fuck's sakes Wan, you've been here long enough to know that the word "Omnipotent" means about as much to the OBD as "Power level".

on-topic: I'm guessing if you turn mindrape off he gets to some of the stronger maiar, specifically the ones that get power-scaled to Osse, or some of the higher-tier dragons. 
With mindrape on I'd say Glaurung's the first relevant thing I can think of that puts him down.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Oh the one where he created a planetary time stop and moved everyone to a dimension he created. Best part was he gave some of his power Loki prior to that. Classic Thor/Marvel stuff was awesome with that faux shakespeare style speak.



he also curbstomped the shit out Set the Elder god from the conan stories.

Only Skyfather to have a successful fight with an EG...speaks volumes for the kind of power that guy has.


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## Solrac (Jan 1, 2015)

It's the first day of 2015 and here I am hearing that cube level = multiversal and that skyfather = universal now? 

>Wut?
>Since when have categories of destructive capacity and firepower changed their true definitions by bumping the previous up to another?

As for this topic: my knowledge of Goku is primarily based off of the DBZ and DBZ Kai anime. And this is Goku at one of his earliest levels correct? Wouldn't he beat everyone except the cosmic entities and the supreme god of Middle-Earth?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 1, 2015)

> he also curbstomped the shit out Set the Elder god from the conan stories.



He was kinda exhausted to be fair after they were jumping across time and space in their fight.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 1, 2015)

Jakers said:


> It's the first day of 2015 and here I am hearing that cube level = multiversal and that skyfather = universal now?
> 
> >Wut?
> >Since when have categories of destructive capacity and firepower changed their true definitions by bumping the previous up to another?
> ...



Categories are general asumptions for an absecense of feats, bit there are beings like Odin, who has really high end feats that blow all the other skyfathers out of the water; and people like Eru who's a presumed skyfather but lacks offensive feats to put him at a higher level...

TL;DR: Labels are general estimates than don't always fully apply to all characters that fall underneath them...


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## AgentAAA (Jan 1, 2015)

Jakers said:


> It's the first day of 2015 and here I am hearing that cube level = multiversal and that skyfather = universal now?
> 
> >Wut?
> >Since when have categories of destructive capacity and firepower changed their true definitions by bumping the previous up to another?
> ...


23rd budokai goku is the arc directly before DBZ begins - so he's not even at the level he fought raditz at. Mach 89 and Gigaton high-level attacks.


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## Solrac (Jan 1, 2015)

Strange of Eternity said:


> Categories are general asumptions for an absecense of feats, bit there are beings like Odin, who has really high end feats that blow all the other skyfathers out of the water; and people like Eru who's a presumed skyfather but lacks offensive feats to put him at a higher level...
> 
> TL;DR: Labels are general estimates than don't always fully apply to all characters that fall underneath them...





AgentAAA said:


> 23rd budokai goku is the arc directly before DBZ begins - so he's not even at the level he fought raditz at. Mach 89 and Gigaton high-level attacks.



For me, skyfathers are beings whose max feats are primarily if not exclusively within the near-galactic to multi-galactic range. And cube beings are above that. 

I would think said feats are directly the corollary to the categories themselves. Sure it's vague, but hey...


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2015)

Jakers said:


> It's the first day of 2015 and here I am hearing that cube level = multiversal and that skyfather = universal now?
> 
> >Wut?
> >Since when have categories of destructive capacity and firepower changed their true definitions by bumping the previous up to another?



uhh since forever? The issue isn't with the categories its with people seemingly under the mistaken belief that Skyfathers are all *only* Galaxy busters..and end up accidentally lowballing a bunch of characters because they consulted the wiki list of ball parks or heard knowledgeable people use the term and then toss it around thoughtlessly. 





Tranquil Fury said:


> He was kinda exhausted to be fair after they were jumping across time and space in their fight.



True but outside of SHAZAM what other Skyfather could have done that? Elders gods tend to be waaaayy above that pay grade..Set especially.

Which reminds me, I mentioned this to EJ once years ago but the fear itself story line shouldn't have been the serpent but fucking Set himself

since he was strong enough for it and had legit beef with odin prior.

Guess that Conan copy right loss really screwed up the marvel universe...



Strange of Eternity said:


> Categories are general asumptions for an absecense of feats, bit there are beings like Odin, who has really high end feats that blow all the other skyfathers out of the water; and people like Eru who's a presumed skyfather but lacks offensive feats to put him at a higher level...
> 
> TL;DR: Labels are general estimates than don't always fully apply to all characters that fall underneath them...



Eru has the feats to place himself in that tier, problem is people think offensive feats are the only thing that matters.

He's a skyfather, he just doesn't have what it takes to topple the top tiers. A lack of offensive feats does go into determining that of course..but its not "everything"



Jakers said:


> For me, *skyfathers are beings whose max feats are primarily if not exclusively within the near-galactic to multi-galactic range*. And cube beings are above that.
> 
> I would think said feats are directly the corollary to the categories themselves. Sure it's vague, but hey...



i don't know why..most skyfathers are above that as in "doing that casually' is usually what qualifies you.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 2, 2015)

> True but outside of SHAZAM what other Skyfather could have done that? Elders gods tend to be waaaayy above that pay grade..Set especially.



Set tends to fluctuate with worship, reptiles and such. Seth for example stole some of Set's worshippers to power himself up at the Elder god's expense. Generally they are above Skyfathers based on some of their feats. Even Hell Lords like Mephisto, Dormmamu(he beat Gaea once to be fair but classic Dormmamu seemed higher when the Marvel cosmology was still being established) and such are weary of them. If they were'nt above Skyfathers before, they've been made so over the years.



> Which reminds me, I mentioned this to EJ once years ago but the fear itself story line shouldn't have been the serpent but fucking Set himself



I'd prefer that Set not have appeared in that meh event(or stay as far away from current Marvel mainstream stuff as possible). Fraction's explaination was that due to various Ragnaroks history and gods can change. This allowed Freja and Freya to change, Freya took Freja's role as Odin's wife. Amora took Freja's role as goddess of love becoming an asgardian(Freja no longer exists in this life), her sister Lorelei sat out the Ragnarok of Thor: Disassembled and remained unchanged however. 

EDIT Basically Serpant only exists recently in Asgard's history. Cul Borson otherwise was never around. He's returned recently so we'll see how they use him.

Odin also beatdown the Serpant in flashbacks of Mighty Thor 07 under Fraction. Fraction Odin was closer to his Silver age self at times and arguably did more nasty stuff in power feats. His Thor run sucked despite good ideas though Ages of Thunder and Thor: Secret Invasion tie ins by him were great.


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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2015)

Jakers said:
			
		

> *For me,* skyfathers are beings whose max feats are primarily if not exclusively within the near-galactic to multi-galactic range. And cube beings are above that.



Truth be told OBD don't really care what you thought about it.

We had feats supporting the claim, your opinion means little when the feat is drawn on panel or the claim of the character is legit enough to be believable...


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## Dudebro (Jan 2, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Truth be told OBD don't really care what you thought about it.
> 
> We had feats supporting the claim, your opinion means little when the feat is drawn on panel or the claim of the character is legit enough to be believable...



You don't need to rip him one...I don't think that just because he said "For me" he was asserting some opinion and just trying to make his confusion sound a bit more...Easy to relate too. I think what he was implying was "Why does the OBD list galaxy-multi-galaxy as skyfather level when universe level is typical for them. The character's mentioned here should just be straight cube(insert whatever) level then."


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 2, 2015)

Because they can't oneshot a universe or do some of the more insane stuff to a universe a cubed being could. They're universal threats, it's like how a planetary threat is different from a planet buster at times. Odin is also not a regular Skyfather and even then it's only his highest stuff that touches to that level mentioned.

That being said Odin has 2-3 feats that could make him full universal under Matt Fraction. Cubed beings/cosmic cubes still go higher than Odin.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 2, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Truth be told OBD don't really care what you thought about it.
> 
> We had feats supporting the claim, your opinion means little when the feat is drawn on panel or the claim of the character is legit enough to be believable...



I think you're jumping the gun a bit here with what Jakers was saying. 



Dudebro said:


> You don't need to rip him one...I don't think that just because he said "For me" he was asserting some opinion and just trying to make his confusion sound a bit more...Easy to relate too. I think what he was implying was "Why does the OBD list galaxy-multi-galaxy as skyfather level when universe level is typical for them. The character's mentioned here should just be straight cube(insert whatever) level then."



People are also as TF noted below me people confuse terms like "universal and multiversal" with "can one shot either"

when it usually means "the scale of which the range of their power operates at is this level" when a character can flat out destroy something on that scale..its usually specified. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Because they can't oneshot a universe or do some of the more insane stuff to a universe a cubed being could. They're universal threats, it's like how a planetary threat is different from a planet buster at times. Odin is also not a regular Skyfather and even then it's only his highest stuff that touches to that level mentioned.



Well Odin is the top tier skyfather, but there are one or two on his level

the rest run the gamut from "busts up galaxies in my battles" to "fucks up oh so much more" ala Odin 

Mephisto himself..probably doesn't reach Skyfather tier outside his realm and even within he's mid tier and his fight with Galactus was nothing to sneeze at..but it wasn't say "endangering a universe" ala Odin vs his evil half who was channeling power from infinity


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## Red Angel (Jan 2, 2015)

> I think you're jumping the gun a bit here with what Jakers was saying.



Well to be fair, it's not like any of us care about what Asspergin says

As for the thread itself, not sure what's being discussed now, though I'd still bank the opinion of someone like Osse or Sauron being able to win more often than not, though not too sure because of Goku's speed advantage and unsure of their durability and all


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## BreakFlame (Jan 2, 2015)

Wow. I came in here expecting a stomp thread about a DBZ character versus a basically medieval world. I had no idea LOTR had so many high-level fighters.

I've only watched the movies, so is this stuff from the books or backstory or something?

Edit: Not doubting here, just curious. I wanna see the guy who throws islands at people.


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## Red Angel (Jan 2, 2015)

Yeah, alot of the verses best feats come from stuff like the Silmarillion, some of it Lost Roads, though given that's secondary canon at best, yeah, take with a grain of salt at best

As for island throwing, Osse was able to move countries around with his magic power, and he's not the strongest person in his verse


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## BreakFlame (Jan 2, 2015)

Ah, the Silmarillion. I heard that it never got finished or something because Tolkien died, right? Anyway, I'll check it out. Thanks.


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## Red Angel (Jan 2, 2015)

Yeah, from what I gather, Silmarillion is an unfinished work, though if you asked Arednad of this, he'd use that as an excuse to disregard it's feats, if he's not trying the "baww poetic language" copout


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## Solrac (Jan 2, 2015)

@Skarbrand: Dude, shut up. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> uhh since forever? The issue isn't with the categories its with people seemingly under the mistaken belief that Skyfathers are all *only* Galaxy busters..and end up accidentally lowballing a bunch of characters because they consulted the wiki list of ball parks or heard knowledgeable people use the term and then toss it around thoughtlessly.



Mind giving me another term I can call people are who mainly "galaxy-busters" or "galactic-level beings" then? 

I guess I can officially just ditch the terms "skyfather" and "cube" as power-levels now and just stick to "galaxy-level" or "universal-level". 



> i don't know why..most skyfathers are above that as in "doing that casually' is usually what qualifies you.



well I guess there's a difference between affecting something at your max and affecting something at your average or minimum. 



Dudebro said:


> You don't need to rip him one...I don't think that just because he said "For me" he was asserting some opinion and just trying to make his confusion sound a bit more...Easy to relate too. I think what he was implying was "Why does the OBD list galaxy-multi-galaxy as skyfather level when universe level is typical for them. The character's mentioned here should just be straight cube(insert whatever) level then."





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I think you're jumping the gun a bit here with what Jakers was saying.



Yes...


That's exactly what I meant. 



> People are also as TF noted below me people confuse terms like "universal and multiversal" with "can one shot either"
> 
> when it usually means "the scale of which the range of their power operates at is this level" when a character can flat out destroy something on that scale..its usually specified.



You are absolutely correct. 



> Well Odin is the top tier skyfather, but there are one or two on his level
> 
> the rest run the gamut from "busts up galaxies in my battles" to "fucks up oh so much more" ala Odin



So Marvel Odin is a galaxy++ level being... good to know.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 2, 2015)

Skarbrand said:


> Well to be fair, it's not like any of us care about what Asspergin says
> 
> As for the thread itself, not sure what's being discussed now, though I'd still bank the opinion of someone* like Osse or Sauron being able to win more often than not, t*hough not too sure because of Goku's speed advantage and unsure of their durability and all



That's about where we're all at really. 



BreakFlame said:


> Wow. I came in here expecting a stomp thread about a DBZ character versus a basically medieval world. I had no idea LOTR had so many high-level fighters.
> 
> I've only watched the movies, so is this stuff from the books or backstory or something?
> 
> Edit: Not doubting here, just curious. I wanna see the guy who throws islands at people.





> Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
> 
> But E?rendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun E?rendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.?



Each one of those mountains was larger than Everest and the Dragon broke them all when he fell on them. 

The armies also destroyed a continent fighting an Orc host so large it filled up a few miles or something.

Then you have Sauron doing stuff like throwing Tsunami's around powerful enough to hurl a bunch of steel ships several miles in land and overrunning islands with mind rape



> ?But at length, after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth?came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment. He took Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond. Then Sauron made it into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil and a menace; and the fair island of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.?



Wherewolves causing rock slides that damn up water falls by barking too loud



> ?But Carcharoth avoided [Huan], and bursting from the thorns leaped suddenly upon Thingol. Swiftly Beren strode before him with a spear, but Carcharoth swept it aside and felled him, biting at his breast. In that moment Huan leaped from the thicket upon the back of the Wolf, and they fell together fighting bitterly; and no battle of wolf and hound has been like to it, for in the baying of Huan was heard the voice of the horns of Orom? and the wrath of the Valar, but in the howls of Carcharoth was the hate of Morgoth and malice crueler than teeth of steel; and the rocks were rent by their clamour and fell from on high and choked the falls of Esgalduin. There they fought to the death; but Thingol gave no heed, for he knelt by Beren, seeing that he was sorely hurt.
> 
> Huan in that hour slew Carcharoth; but there in the woven woods of Doriath his own doom long spoken was fulfilled, and he was wounded mortally, and the venom of Morgoth entered into him.?







BreakFlame said:


> Ah, the Silmarillion. I heard that it never got finished or something because Tolkien died, right? Anyway, I'll check it out. Thanks.



It's published, along with several book series, like the History of middle earth and the lost tales series.


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## Nevermind (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh hey my thread got to three pages, granted much of it became a tangent.

Good start to 2015?


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## Freddy Mercury (Jan 2, 2015)

Nevermind said:


> Oh hey my thread got to three pages, granted much of it became a tangent.
> 
> Good start to 2015?



Let's hope it continues.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 2, 2015)

LOTR threads tend to be good in general


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## KaiserWombat (Jan 2, 2015)

so long as you don't whine about the state of the OBD in this thread 

But no, it is a decent beginning to the new year, which I wouldn't have thought possible with a fucking Goku vs Middle-earth bout (even factoring in the Primodial and First Ages), so kudos to you NM

As for the actual topic: I think it is made quite certain that there is no mortal (and very, very few immortals) being capable of standing toe-to-toe with 23rd Budokai Goku in a martial contest, and that Eru Illuvatar and pretty much all of the Valar are simply too high on the power paygrade for even this incarnation of the Saiyan to overcome in battle.

So the major question is: where does the buck end at? Valar-tier, or is there is any representative of the Maiar able to incapacitate or even kill Goku outright? Master manipulators and outright mind violators are a-plenty in this spiritual class, with entities such as Melian, Sauron prior to the Siege of Barad-dur, even Melian's half-Maia daughter Luthien demonstrating covetous and sensory-distorting traits easily of the magnitude to disorientate the likes of Goku. I suppose that complete brain scrambling should suffice as a victory scenario.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 2, 2015)

Nevermind said:


> Oh hey my thread got to three pages, granted much of it became a tangent.
> 
> Good start to 2015?



Tempted to do a Ottoman Empire + Europe vs Song China or something thread..to keep the trend of "intelligent" threads going



KaiserWombat said:


> so long as you don't whine about the state of the OBD in this thread ]



We're all one foot in the grave!

Dem OCD level newbies 

obligatory dbz shitstorm inducing comment!

How's that? 




KaiserWombat said:


> s
> So the major question is: where does the buck end at? Valar-tier, or is there is any representative of the Maiar able to incapacitate or even kill Goku outright? Master manipulators and outright mind violators are a-plenty in this spiritual class, with entities such as Melian, Sauron prior to the Siege of Barad-dur, even Melian's half-Maia daughter Luthien demonstrating covetous and sensory-distorting traits easily of the magnitude to disorientate the likes of Goku. I suppose that complete brain scrambling should suffice as a victory scenario.



Battle of the combat specialists maybe?

Eonwe vs Goku?


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## Nightmare13 (Jan 2, 2015)

Gandalf the White might be able to. Wasn't he supposed to be on Sauron's level of power, or comparable? 

I might be terribly misremembering. I just feel like there was a part in which Gandalf was indicated to be near Sauron strength, but could not move against him matching force with force, due to the oath he and the other Wizards took when they abandoned their Maiar forms for human ones.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2015)

I don't think there was ever a part where Gandalf was indicated to be near Sauron's power

all the times Gandalf mentions Sauron, the former says he's not as dangerous as the latter or admits some form of inferiority to him in power


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

Gandalf has crazy range on his telepathy but no he's not on Saurons level. He was able to fight off a mind rape by Sauron though


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## Nightmare13 (Jan 3, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't think there was ever a part where Gandalf was indicated to be near Sauron's power
> 
> all the times Gandalf mentions Sauron, the former says he's not as dangerous as the latter or admits some form of inferiority to him in power



Fair enough. Dunno, guess I just thought a Maiar with one of the 3 Rings would be enough to match him. Silly me 

Also, a note about some comments earlier.

The Silmarillion is the first book that Tolkien began writing about Middle Earth, and the last he ever finished. No Middle Earth story was complete at the time of his death, not even Lord of the Rings. He was constantly revising them, being a bit of a perfectionist. I don't think the canonness (is that even a term?) should be in question. 

I'm actually not sure how it could be.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Gandalf has crazy range on his telepathy but no he's not on Saurons level. He was able to fight off a mind rape by Sauron though



So did Aragorn and Pippin during the Palantir event. Not saying it isn't impressive, just saying that that kind of mental resistance is not uncommon in LotR lol.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

Nightmare13 said:


> So did Aragorn and Pippin during the Palantir event. Not saying it isn't impressive, just saying that that kind of mental resistance is not uncommon in LotR lol.



What?!..its not common at all to resist Sauron, to the point that a Maiar who was also a specialist in mind hax got more or less turned into a puppet and Denethor was driven batfuck crazy. Aragorn had rightful ownership of the Palantir and Pippin got rocked..

Gandalf didn't just resist a mind rape he outright contested Sauron, outside of Galadriel and Luthien no ones done that.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2015)

Pippin got reduced to a gibbering wreck as far as I remember


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Pippin got reduced to a gibbering wreck as far as I remember



and that's with an inborn toughness to that type of powers as a race trait.

Sauron screwed with Numenor all of it and its residents with very few resisting.


----------



## Gibbs (Jan 3, 2015)

What's the name of that beast that Gandalf famously told "You shall not Pass"?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 3, 2015)

The Phoenix King said:


> What's the name of that beast that Gandalf famously told "You shall not Pass"?



It was a Balrog, referred to as Durin's Bane. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.


----------



## Strange of Eternity (Jan 3, 2015)

Nightmare13 said:


> Gandalf the White might be able to. Wasn't he supposed to be on Sauron's level of power, or comparable?
> 
> I might be terribly misremembering. I just feel like there was a part in which Gandalf was indicated to be near Sauron strength, but could not move against him matching force with force, due to the oath he and the other Wizards took when they abandoned their Maiar forms for human ones.



Nah, in the third age only Galadriel could have matched Sauron's power, and that's a somewhat big maybe...


Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't think there was ever a part where Gandalf was indicated to be near Sauron's power
> 
> all the times Gandalf mentions Sauron, the former says he's not as dangerous as the latter or admits some form of inferiority to him in power



Adding to that, Gandalf was outright terrified of Sauron, to the point where he at first refused the assigment of becoming a wizard...


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

Nevermind said:


> Since there's so many LOTR threads around recently. *This is 23rd Bodoukai Goku.*
> 
> How far does he get?



23rd Budokai Goku is planet level now, powerscaling from Piccolo. So he should do fairly decent



Nightbringer said:


> So Skyfathers are universal?
> 
> man I had them pegged at galaxy level
> 
> my tiers are screwy





They mostly are

Galaxy is a bare minimum requirement to being Skyfather level (which I believe is why we have Darkseid and Ares from DC comics as Skyfather level even though i don't recall any galaxy busting hype from Ares)


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 23rd Budokai Goku is planet level now, powerscaling from Piccolo. So he should do fairly decent



He's island+ from Piccolo scaling. He's weaker than post-skip Piccolo.


----------



## AngryHeretic (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 23rd Budokai Goku is planet level :/



Since when?

Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga >>>>> 23rd Budokai Goku and even the former was only just at planet-level in the anime. Goku at this point should be small moon level tops, unless something ridiculous happens during the Goku vs Piccolo fight that I've forgotten.

In which case, if he keeps a considerable enough distance from Sauron, Gandalf and the like, and just fires off his strongest energy attacks, all the Maiar on ME should die. For all the power attributed to Sauron's mindfuck, his power only extends as far away as, say, a continent if his target is wearing one of the rings.

Basically, it comes down to whether CIS is on for this fight. If it is, Goku gets fucked as soon as he approaches Sauron. If it's off, he vaporizes ME only to get taken down by the Valar.

Edit: If he's only Island+ then with CIS off he should still be able to wipe out the Maiar... again, from a distance. An island-level attack would probably be enough to kill Ancalagon, who was stronger than any of the Maiar physically, so none of the Istari, Sauron, or the Balrog will be tanking something like that.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's island+ from Piccolo scaling. He's weaker than post-skip Piccolo.



No, Piccolo's level when he performed the feat was 322 (with weighted clothes). Goku's during the 23rd budokai was atleast 325 (his Super KH's power level is also apparently above 900). I believe there is also a statement in the databook saying that his Super KH can destroy the moon if it were to hit it. There seems to be sufficient enough evidence here to classify Goku as planet level this early on atleast in DC


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No, Piccolo's level when he performed the feat was 322 (with weighted clothes). Goku's during the 23rd budokai was atleast 325 (his Super KH's power level is also apparently above 900). I believe there is also a statement in the databook saying that his Super KH can destroy the moon if it were to hit it. There seems to be sufficient enough evidence here to classify Goku as planet level this early on atleast in DC



I'm not so certain... Outside of leldatabooks, Piccolo and Goku had seven years training time, and this fact is even noted by goku (If I recall, he say something along the lines of "wow, you've really been training"). I feel like a 7-year gap, even if little in terms of actual training is implied, would cause 23rd goku and piccolo to increase in power quite a bit, especially since just that island buster exhausted 23rd piccolo.


----------



## trance (Jan 3, 2015)

Well, Piccolo had already expended a lot of energy fighting Goku prior to his island razer.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> Well, Piccolo had already expended a lot of energy fighting Goku prior to his island razer.



true, but his moon-buster was absolutely effortless.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'm not so certain... Outside of leldatabooks, Piccolo and Goku had seven years training time, and this fact is even noted by goku (If I recall, he say something along the lines of "wow, you've really been training"). I feel like a 7-year gap, even if little in terms of actual training is implied, would cause 23rd goku and piccolo to increase in power quite a bit, especially since just that island buster exhausted 23rd piccolo.



I believe it was 3 years wasn't it? Goku was 15 when he beat King Piccolo and he was 18 when he fought Junior.

Doesn't that go into the AoE fallacy? Unless I'm missing something an attack can be powerscaled from a weaker attack regardless of how much damage it causes (Example being 90's Godzilla being Country level powerscaling from Imago Mothra)


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I believe it was 3 years wasn't it? Goku was 15 when he beat King Piccolo and he was 18 when he fought Junior.
> 
> Doesn't that go into the AoE fallacy? Unless I'm missing something an attack can be powerscaled from a weaker attack regardless of how much damage it causes (Example being 90's Godzilla being Country level powerscaling from Imago Mothra)



I'm speaking of the 7 years between the 23rd and the fight with Raditz - long enough for goku to get married and have a kid.
come to think of it - Piccolo's only about 7 years older than Gohan at best. Weird.
And it's the same reasoning that Roshi's moonbust is considered outlier - due to KP's best efforts while trying to show off his power(and exhausting himself) just vaping a city. Piccolo Jr. was basically doing the same thing with that big blast.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'm speaking of the 7 years between the 23rd and the fight with Raditz - long enough for goku to get married and have a kid.
> come to think of it - Piccolo's only about 7 years older than Gohan at best. Weird.
> And it's the same reasoning that Roshi's moonbust is considered outlier - due to KP's best efforts while trying to show off his power(and exhausting himself) just vaping a city. Piccolo Jr. was basically doing the same thing with that big blast.



But again this is a verse that relies solely on condensed AoE and powerscaling from weaker characters. Roshi's moon feat is an outlier only because its contradicted by other factors in the story.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> But again this is a verse that relies solely on condensed AoE and powerscaling from weaker characters. Roshi's moon feat is an outlier only because its contradicted by other factors in the story.



it relies solely on condensed AoE... based on the last thing that happened in story as far as power went. Piccolo blowing up the moon is a 7 years later thing, and we know for a fact Piccolo kept training in an attempt to kill Goku before that.
What other factors do you speak of?


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> it relies solely on condensed AoE... based on the last thing that happened in story as far as power went. Piccolo blowing up the moon is a 7 years later thing, and we know for a fact Piccolo kept training in an attempt to kill Goku before that.
> What other factors do you speak of?



RR Base>Roshi

RR saga Goku>=Roshi. Every single one of Goku's feats and those whod efeated him (Tao) have shown nothing anywhere close to that. (also that point in time Dragonball was a joke manga, if we count Roshi as a moon buster we'd have to count bos Goku as FTL because he travelled to the moon and back in a few seconds with his power pole)


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> RR Base>Roshi
> 
> RR saga Goku>=Roshi. Every single one of Goku's feats and those whod efeated him (Tao) have shown nothing anywhere close to that. (also that point in time Dragonball was a joke manga, if we count Roshi as a moon buster we'd have to count bos Goku as FTL because he travelled to the moon and back in a few seconds with his power pole)



I think that's only relativistic, buuut... To be fair that's all the pole and given it's a straight line goku didn't need to react to it.
But that can be said for this situation too - every single one of 23rd pic's feats show nothing close to moon busting. he's also a weaker piccolo than the later one vs. raditz by story admission.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I think that's only relativistic, buuut... To be fair that's all the pole and given it's a straight line goku didn't need to react to it.
> But that can be said for this situation too - every single one of 23rd pic's feats show nothing close to moon busting. he's also a weaker piccolo than the later one vs. raditz by story admission.



Well again there's the condensed AoE argument, that and I'm not sure you can scale it to Goku's most powerful attack who was established as being Piccolo's equal if not slightly stronger than him (Piccolo had to wound him and fight dirty just to get the advantage)


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Well again there's the condensed AoE argument, that and I'm not sure you can scale it to Goku's most powerful attack who was established as being Piccolo's equal if not slightly stronger than him (Piccolo had to wound him and fight dirty just to get the advantage)



condensed AoE argument only works if 
A: You have that under your belt in the first place
B: your attack that's meant to show off your power to the world isn't an island-buster.
Piccolo had literally no reason to hold back with that blast and in fact used Goku's emotions against him to get advantages plenty of the time. He wants to destroy the world, had no issue killing anyone at the tournament, and if he could do moon-level the AoE from that hit should have left the planet a smoking ruin. It's one of the reasons the villains motives tended to be a bit more about showing themselves as the best later - that way, they DIDN'T blow up the planet(or at least didn't try to do it constantly to make their opponent take hits)


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> condensed AoE argument only works if
> A: You have that under your belt in the first place
> B: your attack that's meant to show off your power to the world isn't an island-buster.
> Piccolo had literally no reason to hold back with that blast and in fact used Goku's emotions against him to get advantages plenty of the time. He wants to destroy the world, had no issue killing anyone at the tournament, and if he could do moon-level the AoE from that hit should have left the planet a smoking ruin. It's one of the reasons the villains motives tended to be a bit more about showing themselves as the best later - that way, they DIDN'T blow up the planet(or at least didn't try to do it constantly to make their opponent take hits)



1. His objective was to kill Goku and build a new kingdom, why would he destroy the kingdom especielly if the verse has a consistency to show condensed AoE is an actual thing 

2. Piccolo didn't want to destroy the world he wanted to conquer it, otherwise he would have just nuked it when he heard Raditz was planning on selling it. It was made pretty clear he wanted to enslave mankind like his father did and the only person who was able to stop him was Goku. Destroying the planet would actually conflict with his plans and be bad for him.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. His objective was to kill Goku and build a new kingdom, why would he destroy the kingdom especielly if the verse has a consistency to show condensed AoE is an actual thing
> 
> 2. Piccolo didn't want to destroy the world he wanted to conquer it, otherwise he would have just nuked it when he heard Raditz was planning on selling it. It was made pretty clear he wanted to enslave mankind like his father did and the only person who was able to stop him was Goku. Destroying the planet would actually conflict with his plans and be bad for him.



I'm pretty sure if he actually blew up the planet, that'd suck.
However, going for an island-level AoE which wasn't even sufficient to destroy the landmass they were standing on, when the entire point of it was to make goku take it right to the face?
His objective was to kill goku and then fuck with the inhabitants.
However...
Big crux of this argument, again:
23rd piccolo's best demonstration of power is island-level. this isn't scaling from a weaker character's feats at this point, this is attempting to scale to a stronger character's feat, who's outright stated as having trained since then, despite the fact that their speed and ki power seems to jump hugely the moment you get into Z's portion of the manga. 
Condensed AoE is fine, but not whilst trying to scale to a stronger character.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'm pretty sure if he actually blew up the planet, that'd suck.
> However, going for an island-level AoE which wasn't even sufficient to destroy the landmass they were standing on, when the entire point of it was to make goku take it right to the face?
> His objective was to kill goku and then fuck with the inhabitants.
> However...
> ...



But you see this is my point, none of this is contradicting Goku being planet level since Goku is arguably stronger if not equal to Piccolo at that time and had an ultimate attack that is both hyped up to be and can be scaled to small planet level. The only real argument there is, is that Piccolo didn't showcase any planetary level feats when his only objective was to kill Goku and conquer the world not destroy it.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> But you see this is my point, none of this is contradicting Goku being planet level since Goku is arguably stronger if not equal to Piccolo at that time and had an ultimate attack that is both hyped up to be and can be scaled to small planet level. The only real argument there is, is that Piccolo didn't showcase any planetary level feats when his only objective was to kill Goku and conquer the world not destroy it.



it's contradicting in that piccolo never shows planetary feats until seven years later - that goku being small planet is fine. It's the 23rd goku that can't be stated as "stronger" since we don't know how much piccolo grew in that 7 year gap.
Are you seriously arguing that piccolo has planetary level attacks, not because he displayed any at 23rd, but because there's no specific evidence stating he can't? Despite not remotely reaching that level of power during part 1?


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> it's contradicting in that piccolo never shows planetary feats until seven years later - that goku being small planet is fine. It's the 23rd goku that can't be stated as "stronger" since we don't know how much piccolo grew in that 7 year gap.
> Are you seriously arguing that piccolo has planetary level attacks, not because he displayed any at 23rd, but because there's no specific evidence stating he can't? Despite not remotely reaching that level of power during part 1?



Again 23rd budokai Piccolo can be scaled to his saiyan saga feat. His power level in the 23rd budokai (without weighted clothes) is 325. His power level when he performed the feat (when he had the weighted clothes on) was 322 and it was casual...

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing anything that puts him below planet level, if you're only argument is the size of the blast from a battle-worn Piccolo who wanted to kill Goku and not the entire population in a series (no less) that flat out establishes condensed AoE as an actual form of skill. I'm sorry but that just isn't going to hold much water. If we only used the AoE to tell the DC of a fictional character's output we'd have to re-write alot of character's profiles.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Again 23rd budokai Piccolo can be scaled to his saiyan saga feat. His power level in the 23rd budokai (without weighted clothes) is 325. His power level when he performed the feat (when he had the weighted clothes on) was 322 and it was casual...
> 
> I'm sorry but I'm not seeing anything that puts him below planet level, if you're only argument is the size of the blast from a battle-worn Piccolo who wanted to kill Goku and not the entire population in a series (no less) that flat out establishes condensed AoE as an actual form of skill. I'm sorry but that just isn't going to hold much water. If we only used the AoE to tell the DC of a fictional character's output we'd have to re-write alot of character's profiles.



It's only databook that states his 23rd PL if I recall correctly - that's not an accurate barometer of their power.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

...you can't just abc logic your way into handwaving Goku feats from seven years after this battle..where their best feat...going all out was to glass the surface of an island..


----------



## trance (Jan 3, 2015)

You also have post-Piccolo Daimo fight Goku with a power level of 260 getting his ass stomped by Kami with a power level of 220.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom said:
			
		

> I believe it was 3 years wasn't it? Goku was 15 when he beat King Piccolo and he was 18 when he fought Junior.



Er the gap between king piccolo death and Piccolo jr  fighting in the budokai is 2 years and something month, the gap between DB and DBZ is more than 4 years..


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> You also have post-Piccolo Daimo fight Goku with a power level of 260 getting his ass stomped by Kami with a power level of 220.



That was in Shin's body



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...you can't just abc logic your way into handwaving Goku feats from seven years after this battle..where their best feat...going all out was to glass the surface of an island..



So going by this logic Android saga characters are island+ level as well. Not to mention he was exhausted, and Goku tanked it with no real damage whatsoever.

All dbz is, is abc logic.


----------



## trance (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> That was in Shin's body



No it wasn't. It was up on the Lookout right after Goku defeats King Piccolo. Kami appears. Goku attacks and Kami flicks him away like a fodder.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> No it wasn't. It was up on the Lookout right after Goku defeats King Piccolo. Kami appears. Goku attacks and Kami flicks him away like a fodder.



No, his power level was 220 in Shin's body. That's why it has a picture of Shin and not Kami next to it


----------



## trance (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No, his power level was 220 in Shin's body. That's why it has a picture of Shin and not Kami next to it



It's really not.


----------



## Tom Servo (Jan 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> It's really not.



It really is, especially since we also have Goku's power level being over 900 (which is the power level of his super KH not his actual power level at the time) also Raditz level isn't 1500 its 1200


----------



## trance (Jan 3, 2015)

It goes to show that databook is bullshit secondary canon compared to the primary canon.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 3, 2015)

Well duh              .


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> So going by this logic Android saga characters are island+ level as well. Not to mention he was exhausted, and Goku tanked it with no real damage whatsoever.
> 
> All dbz is, is abc logic.



No, just no...between the Androids punching holes in people who could one shot everyone from Zarbon on down to them doing things like causing tsunami's while trading blows with someone who was well beyond "wreck planets with energy tomfoolery" that's not even remotely the same thing

also if dbz were nothing but ABC logic it would be the butt monkey of any vs debate forum, lose against everything..because no one debates purely on ABC logic, feats fucking count more than anything and fortunately for DBZ it has plenty of feats to justify most of the high end claims that aren't stupid as shit. 

What was the point of that?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 3, 2015)

the fuck happened there ? 
databooks are freaking incosistent with power levels and can only be used when the primary cannon doesn't contradict it.
23rd tournament goku>= 23rd tournament piccolo
you can't be really implying APS piccolo = 23rd tournament piccolo
there is a years worthy training gap between them


----------



## Nightmare13 (Jan 3, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> What?!..its not common at all to resist Sauron, to the point that a Maiar who was also a specialist in mind hax got more or less turned into a puppet and Denethor was driven batfuck crazy. Aragorn had rightful ownership of the Palantir and Pippin got rocked..
> 
> Gandalf didn't just resist a mind rape he outright contested Sauron, outside of Galadriel and Luthien no ones done that.



2, arguably 3 Hobbits did it. Aragorn did it. Gandalf did it. 

I'm not sure why that made you so upset, but it's pretty common to resist him. Just take a skim through the history of Middle Earth, there are more people than this. I'm not downplaying Sauron's powers (given the LotR respect threads I've made on here, it should be obvious I'm a fan) but you act as though all of that stuff is super impressive...

Look, the 2 examples you gave? Not even really mind fuck. He played them. Manipulated them. Didn't even need magic, just used their arrogance and fear to turn them to his side and make them think they made the decision for themselves. If magic was involved it was subtle, hardly a "mind fuck" lol.



Strange of Eternity said:


> Nah, in the third age only Galadriel could have matched Sauron's power, and that's a somewhat big maybe...
> 
> 
> Adding to that, Gandalf was outright terrified of Sauron, to the point where he at first refused the assigment of becoming a wizard...



Yep, Gandalf before he was Gandalf/Gandalf the Gray. But I said Gandalf the WHITE, who was far more powerful and much less afraid.

Not contesting the point, since I conceded and all this further discussion has been rather irrelevant, but figured I'd clarify that much.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> Pippin got reduced to a gibbering wreck as far as I remember



Hardly a gibbering wreck. He was terrified and ashamed, sure. But he answered Gandalf pretty clearly and was totally fine the next day. 

So, idk. Sauron has impressive powers and all, but they do require time. He didn't sink Numenor in a day. Fact is, he didn't sink it at all, just corrupted the people on it enough that someone else did. He fled back to Middle Earth as a spirit. 

How about we note his battle with Huan or how dangerously manipulative he is, his skill at crafting potent magical rings, or how he led the 9 greatest kings of men down a path of evil so entangling they could not escape and became wraiths to his power? I like those parts the best.


----------



## AngryHeretic (Jan 3, 2015)

Nightmare13 said:


> How about we note his battle with Huan or how dangerously manipulative he is, his skill at crafting potent magical rings, or how he led the 9 greatest kings of men down a path of evil so entangling they could not escape and became wraiths to his power? I like those parts the best.



I honestly think his best feat to date, on par with powering the One Ring, is disabling Luthien who is Half-Maiar and has the power to stand in the presence of Morgoth and several Balrogs and put them all to sleep. IIRC that was a sort of mental attack in the form of a fear effect. Assuming Goku gets close enough for him to use it - which is unlikely - that is his best shot.


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## x5exotic (Jan 3, 2015)

Raped by immortal ghosts


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 3, 2015)

Nightmare13 said:


> 2, arguably 3 Hobbits did it. Aragorn did it. Gandalf did it.



Frodo failed, Sam was apparently too retarded to corrupt Aragorn had special circumstances in his favor..and Gandalf is well..Gandalf



Nightmare13 said:


> I'm not sure why that made you so upset, but it's pretty common to resist him. Just take a skim through the history of Middle Earth, there are more people than this. I'm not downplaying Sauron's powers (given the LotR respect threads I've made on here, it should be obvious I'm a fan) but you act as though all of that stuff is super impressive...



Because you're ignoring special circumstances to make a claim..which is wrong?




Nightmare13 said:


> Look, the 2 examples you gave? Not even really mind fuck. He played them. Manipulated them. Didn't even need magic, just used their arrogance and fear to turn them to his side and make them think they made the decision for themselves. If magic was involved it was subtle, hardly a "mind fuck" lol.



sounds like Arednads school of Tolkienism 



Nightmare13 said:


> So, idk. Sauron has impressive powers and all, but they do require time. He didn't sink Numenor in a day. Fact is, he didn't sink it at all, just corrupted the people on it enough that someone else did. He fled back to Middle Earth as a spirit.
> .



Nobody claimed he sank Numenor at all?


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2015)

To be fair the Daizenshuu didn't keep Kami's power level when it took a lot of the power levels from Weekly Shonen Jump. The Daizenshuu has the finalized guidebook power level list since the later guidebooks, one of them being the Super Exciting Guide, just copy and pastes their list. I really don't know why the obd doesn't like guidebooks tbh especially since Toriyama has said he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was creating the manga but I don't expect to change the obd's opinion on lolguidebook.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 4, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> To be fair the Daizenshuu didn't keep Kami's power level when it took a lot of the power levels from Weekly Shonen Jump. The Daizenshuu has the finalized guidebook power level list since the later guidebooks, one of them being the Super Exciting Guide, just copy and pastes their list. I really don't know why the obd doesn't like guidebooks tbh especially since Toriyama has said he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was creating the manga but I don't expect to change the obd's opinion on lolguidebook.



Has nothing to do with not liking them.
Has to do with them having nothing to do with the show's canon, not being written or used by toriyama, and being about as related to the DB manga as the anime filler is.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2015)

Toriyama apparently likes the Daizenshuu tho


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 4, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Toriyama apparently likes the Daizenshuu tho



he also liked GT and thought it was imaginative. It has nothing to do with him liking it, it has to do with it breaking canon.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2015)

By liking it I meant he specifically said he wished he had it not that he said he liked it: 

Toriyama said gt was a side story anyway. Where does the Daizenshuu break canon?


----------



## AgentAAA (Jan 4, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> By liking it I meant he specifically said he wished he had it not that he said he liked it:
> 
> Toriyama said gt was a side story anyway. Where does the Daizenshuu break canon?



That's fine. something consistent to correct certain errors probably would have helped tori. I'm not seeing where that makes it canon or less of a fanfic regardless.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 4, 2015)

even if it were canon, Databooks are always secondary canon and usually not even used as evidence due to being full of nonsense.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2015)

But where is the Daizenshuu full of nonsense? AFAIK it doesn't break canon at all.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 4, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> But where is the Daizenshuu full of nonsense? AFAIK it doesn't break canon at all.



Cell being a solar system buster, which is bullshit?

Yamcha being a werewolf or something? which is almost onpar with reinforcing Cells nonsense claim?


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2015)

The Daizenshuu didn't say Cell is a ss buster, an anime only guidebook did. And the Yamcha thing admittedly idk but I'll confirm if it does or not (I doubt it tho)


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## AgentAAA (Jan 4, 2015)

alright, let's deal with this simply because this is a retarded discussion.
Say it doesn't full-on contradict the series. That's nice.
If Immortal Watchdog talks to me and explains the series without contradicting it, that's also nice.
If he makes a list of power levels that don't contradict the series, that's also nice.
I'm not going to use them as canon just because they don't flat-out contradict.
you know why?
because Immortal Watchdog's name isn't Akira Toriyama.
even if skarbrand and Kaiserwombat support his figures.
that's because they're fan-based power levels based on other people watching the series and finding their own conclusion.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 5, 2015)

That's a bad analogy. It's IWD makes a list and Toriyama approves or Toriyama made the list and IWD published it.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 5, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> That's a bad analogy. It's IWD makes a list and Toriyama approves or Toriyama made the list and IWD published it.



Okay, except if Immortal Watchdog makes this fanon list and shows it to Toriyama, Toriyama likes it, and decides to approve it... It's still IWD's fanon list.
which is where we're at now.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 5, 2015)

This is still hard for him to grasp?

It's essentially fanfiction, published fanfiction. That happens all the time. hell GRRM got started by publishing some TOS fanfiction back in the day, just because its published doesn't make it canon.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 5, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> This is still hard for him to grasp?
> 
> It's essentially fanfiction, published fanfiction. That happens all the time. hell GRRM got started by publishing some TOS fanfiction back in the day, just because its published doesn't make it canon.



I'd still like to see him make a justification that wouldn't also require us to make GT canon.

fuck, by this logic we need to use the LoK game as part of canon


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 5, 2015)

Toriyama called gt a side story. Toriyama said he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was making the manga which implies it's true otherwise he wouldn't have wanted it to do a quick fact check or something. I feel like you guys just aren't accepting it because of tradition or something, it's not like it powers up pre BoG DB to ftl or something lol.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 5, 2015)

back on old times (aka before loldisney) wasn't EU considered cannon because of author intent ?
or was there a more trickier situation on it ?
not like this even matter considering how databooks are by themselves just secondary sources at best and not an expanded version of the primary cannon.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 5, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Toriyama called gt a side story. Toriyama said he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was making the manga which implies it's true otherwise he wouldn't have wanted it to do a quick fact check or something. I feel like you guys just aren't accepting it because of tradition or something, it's not like it powers up pre BoG DB to ftl or something lol.


toryama was being polite.
even if he truly thinks the daizenshuu is a great source of information regarding his series it is obviously not flawless and should be taken with a grain of salty.
i'm not enterely sure what kind of statement is even being argued anymore, tho


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jan 5, 2015)

EU was considered canon due to the statements made by the people who controlled canon saying that they were canon.

Also regarding Pippin looking into the Palant?r:
I've been re-reading LOTR, and he was reduced to worse than a gibbering wreck.

Until Gandalf did something he was so out of it that he was literally paralysed, only able to say exactly what Sauron wanted him to before collapsing. Again, even after being revived by Gandalf the White, there were still some things he simply could not say.

Bear in mind this is just from Sauron talking to poor Pip.

As Gandalf points out, he didn't really try to lay Pippin bare or anything.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 5, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> even if it were canon, Databooks are always secondary canon and usually not even used as evidence due to being full of nonsense.



Marvel tends to do it as well. Least what I remember of comics.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 5, 2015)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> EU was considered canon due to the statements made by the people who controlled canon saying that they were canon.
> 
> Also regarding Pippin looking into the Palant?r:
> I've been re-reading LOTR, and he was reduced to worse than a gibbering wreck.
> ...



so much for his mind rapes not being impressive  



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Marvel tends to do it as well. Least what I remember of comics.



they actually insult fans who take the databooks seriously


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 7, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> toryama was being polite.
> even if he truly thinks the daizenshuu is a great source of information regarding his series it is obviously not flawless and should be taken with a grain of salty.
> i'm not enterely sure what kind of statement is even being argued anymore, tho



I brought it up because somebody said the databooks where whack because kami was at 220 and Daimao was at 260 but in reality the finalized guidebook power level list deleted Kami's power level. I just wanted to argue for the Daizenshuu to be secondary canon


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## Tom Servo (Jan 8, 2015)

I still don't really get why 23rd Budokai Goku is considered only at Island level, when there are feats, statements that say otherwise.

Even if you try to twist the logic that Goku's most powerful attack couldn't be powerscaled to a weaker Piccolo's casual attack, couldn't he powerscaled from Kami who basically re-materialized the fucking moon?



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Cell being a solar system buster, which is bullshit?
> 
> Yamcha being a werewolf or something? which is almost onpar with reinforcing Cells nonsense claim?



Considering that the Kais are basically apples this bit of info doesn't surprise me in the least

Not that I think he is but why is Cell's statement considered hyperbole? Doesn't it need to be proven hyperbole in order for it to become invalid?


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## AgentAAA (Jan 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I still don't really get why 23rd Budokai Goku is considered only at Island level, when there are feats, statements that say otherwise.
> 
> Even if you try to twist the logic that Goku's most powerful attack couldn't be powerscaled to a weaker Piccolo's casual attack, couldn't he powerscaled from Kami who basically re-materialized the fucking moon?
> 
> ...



Creation feats are weird in DB, but to put it simply;
Shenron can put an entire planet back.
He can't beat even touch small planet/moon nappa.
there's also a difference with what kami can do since he's pretty dang unimpressive in showings.
We also don't know how much time it took for the moon to come back or the actual method used to do so, so actually 


as for weaker piccolo:
as stated before, jump PL's for 23rd and etc. aren't primary canon and are dismissed.

even with weights several years of training should have made piccolo a lot stronger. Though I'd also point out that while 50 kilos will decrease speed, strength, etc. and thus make them appear weaker... would that really affect the ki energy he shoots from his hands?

TL DR; Powerlevels of 23rd are bullshit and weights don't stop ki.






> Not that I think he is but why is Cell's statement considered hyperbole? Doesn't it need to be proven hyperbole in order for it to become invalid?



no, no, it's other way around with statements.
Cell is arrogant, condescending, overconfident to the point of insanity, and has a superiority complex. He isn't even certain of his own capabilities most of the time, being surprised by his use of certain powers, surviving his own damn explosion, etc.
He's also taunting Gohan at that moment and on a power high. There's a few good reasons not to take him seriously.


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## Tom Servo (Jan 8, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Creation feats are weird in DB, but to put it simply;
> Shenron can put an entire planet back.
> He can't beat even touch small planet/moon nappa.
> there's also a difference with what kami can do since he's pretty dang unimpressive in showings.
> ...



I commonly hear the argument that "his statement is legit because none of the z warriors corrected him"
though that's not really an argument I understand since....there is no proof that any Z character knows the necessary level


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## AgentAAA (Jan 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I commonly hear the argument that "his statement is legit because none of the z warriors corrected him"
> though that's not really an argument I understand since....there is no proof that any Z character knows the necessary level



oh for fucks sakes... 
It doesn't even have anything to do with whether or not they know the necessary level, even though that argument is also a valid one to nix it.
But to quote what other people have stated ad nauseum...
Do you really think that Gohan and co., standing there, traumatized at the recent death of Goku, followed by finding out his sacrifice was for absolutely nothing, realizing that the monster they thought had died has come back, injured gohan's good arm and now might destroy the entire planet with a blast they know they probably can't stop.... Are going to sit there and go "no, cell, You can only do X amount of damage! That's not nearly 1 FoE of energy!" or something along those lines.
The characters have no reason to care about the legitimacy of his claims beyond the fact that he's going to wipe them all out.


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## Featherine (Jan 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I still don't really get why 23rd Budokai Goku is considered only at Island level, when there are feats, statements that say otherwise.



I don't really see what's so hard to understand.

You can't possibly say that Goku was that much stronger than Piccolo, considering if things were actually left out like they were, Goku would've died from bleeding while Piccolo would've recovered eventually. Sure, Goku won, but was he that much stronger ? Hell no.

Then you have said Piccolo whose best attack razed an Island, factoring in tiredness and corporal damage that makes it legit Island *busting*. Goku being roughly equal to him makes him Island too, Island+ if you fancy.

Nothing planet level there.

Just wondering, can't Maiar also turn intangible ? I thought they could.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

holy fucking balls are we seriously having a Cell is a solar system buster debate? 

edit yes Maiar can, their default form is "ghost god" and then when ones who entered arda entered arda they tended to be loosely connected with the elements or concepts they helped create.


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## Featherine (Jan 8, 2015)

That's what I thought, so how would Goku be able to go up until the Valar then, shouldn't he stop at the first Maiar with Mental Abilities ?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

Featherine said:


> That's what I thought, so how would Goku be able to go up until the Valar then, shouldn't he stop at the first Maiar with Mental Abilities ?




Chi should be able to affect Maiar just fine, so he can frag them. The trouble is between the mental abilities of sum and the raw power of others he's in trouble


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## Tom Servo (Jan 8, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> holy fucking balls are we seriously having a Cell is a solar system buster debate?



No? chill out. People treat DBZ like its a controversial matter but never have I seen a discussion of their power that caused a shit storm over here. The GvS days are over people.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No? chill out. People treat DBZ like its a controversial matter but never have I seen a discussion of their power that caused a shit storm over here. The GvS days are over people.



DBZ isn't some hentai pr0n or something, it isn't a controversial manga whatsoever.,

It's fans on the other hand? That's a different story.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No? chill out. People treat DBZ like its a controversial matter but never have I seen a discussion of their power that caused a shit storm over here. The GvS days are over people.



Really?
Cause I recall a lot of namecalling and shitslinging in the last few DBZ meta threads I've been involved in.
It's still a weird-ass manga to determine levels of strength with, and frankly the only reason it's not argued more is people are too busy being terrible in the avatar threads.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Really?
> Cause I recall a lot of namecalling and shitslinging in the last few DBZ meta threads I've been involved in.
> It's still a weird-ass manga to determine levels of strength with, and frankly the only reason it's not argued more is people are too busy being terrible in the avatar threads.



suddenly UD's Dragon Ball Z Moratorium is sounding all the more appealing now


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 10, 2015)

Well tbh I firmly believe anime Cell is a ss buster. He has an anime guidebook backing him up and more importantly, he has Kid Buu's low end large star anime feat. It's the one where the galaxy disappears over a few years (the anime universe seems to have more than 4 galaxies lol). Manga Cell isn't tho (no matter how much I want him to be).


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

Being fair...
while it is definitely odd for kid buu to wipe out all the stars on a galaxy within a couple of years without destroying more than one star at once it is still possible considering his speed.
i mean our galaxy has roughly 100 billions of stars
let's say kid buu used bibidi magic to teleport to each of the stars non stop for 2 years 
2 years have 63244800 secs
63244800/10^11=0.000632448 seconds/ per star destroyed
which is well within the range of someone with FTL reactions and attack speed


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 10, 2015)

How fast is that in ftl terms?


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> How fast is that in ftl terms?


assuming all the star are a red dwarf (which is a bs low end) that have an average radius of 9556.5 km
9556500/0.000632448= 15110333181.5 m/s
or 50 c
i'm not sure if i can prove that he needs to reach the core to destroy the star,tho


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 10, 2015)

Assuming the sun's radius it's 3650 c. Idk if it would be used tho


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## Tom Servo (Jan 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Really?
> Cause I recall a lot of namecalling and shitslinging in the last few DBZ meta threads I've been involved in.
> It's still a weird-ass manga to determine levels of strength with, and frankly the only reason it's not argued more is people are too busy being terrible in the avatar threads.



Those aren't DBZ fanboys. That's just ChaosTheory saying hello



iwandesu said:


> Being fair...
> while it is definitely odd for kid buu to wipe out all the stars on a galaxy within a couple of years without destroying more than one star at once it is still possible considering his speed.
> i mean our galaxy has roughly 100 billions of stars
> let's say kid buu used bibidi magic to teleport to each of the stars non stop for 2 years
> ...



There's no evidence supporting that Buu destroyed any stars. The only statement to go is Supreme Kai saying he destroyed a fuckton of planets across teh galaxy


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> There's no evidence supporting that Buu destroyed any stars. The only statement to go is Supreme Kai saying he destroyed a fuckton of planets across teh galaxy



because a galaxy totally stop shining w/out planets 
we don't go by statements we go by feats
statements are only used when there are feats backing them up or to back up others feats


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## King Kakarot (Jan 10, 2015)

Planets in DB shine brighter than stars confirmed


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## Tom Servo (Jan 10, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> because a galaxy totally stop shining w/out planets
> we don't go by statements we go by feats
> statements are only used when there are feats backing them up or to back up others feats



Anime is canon now? MVC will love this


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Anime is canon now? MVC will love this





			
				gohan said:
			
		

> I firmly believe *anime Cell *is a ss buster. He has an *anime guidebook* backing him up and more importantly, he has Kid Buu's low end large star *anime feat*. It's the one where the galaxy disappears over a few years (*the anime universe* seems to have more than 4 galaxies lol). Manga Cell isn't tho (no matter how much I want him to be).


did you miss this part ?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 10, 2015)

This is why I keep saying the devils in the details 

motherfuckers need to read more


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 10, 2015)

pls stop talking about anime DB

thank you


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