# Tsunade vs Part 1 Sasuke



## Beyonce (Nov 20, 2014)

Before you go on and call troll thread read OP 

*Scenario 1*
Location: Kabuto vs Tsunade
Distance: Same as their battle
Conditions: This is pre-skip Tsunade with her fear of blood (before Sannin Deadlock)
Restrictions: CS 2, Katsuyu 
Intel: None

*Scenario 2:*
Same as above, however no restrictions and Sasuke knows about Tsunade's blood phobia​


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## Kyu (Nov 20, 2014)

Tsunade breaks every bone in his body. 

Bar the bullshit prodigy hype Sasuke wasn't stronger than pre-skip Naruto to a point where he can take on a Sannin.


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## Bonly (Nov 20, 2014)

Tsunade turns Sasuke into a stain after blitzing him. Really brah, part one Sasuke though


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## trance (Nov 20, 2014)

Tsunade was schooling Naruto in CQC. Sauce is a little stronger than Nardo at that point but he's still no match at all.


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## Risyth (Nov 20, 2014)

*She plucks him in both scenarios.*


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## Izaya (Nov 20, 2014)

GG Sasuke


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## Mashiba Ryō (Nov 20, 2014)

Part 1 Sasuke > Part 1 Naruto > Part 1 Kabuto > Tsunade.


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 20, 2014)

Assuming Tsunade is still having her phobia.

Tsunade will tear this boy BONE by BONE.


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)

I think people forget that Sasuke if allowed his Cursed Seal actually has better speed/taijutsu then Kabuto especially once factoring in 3 tomoe Sharingan. That being said without CS2 (even with it) I doubt he can take down Tsunade once Sozo Saisei or Byakogou comes into play. It's not a stomp however considering she didn't stomp Kabuto.


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## LeBoyka (Nov 20, 2014)

*Tsunade wins this, low-difficulty.*

Tsunade blitzes, just as she effortlessly blitzed Naruto. 

IF Sasuke uses Curse Mark off-the-bat, he still gets wrecked - despite his speed increasing significantly. The only reason Kabuto even managed to put up a fight was because of his chakra scalpel (which put in work against Tsuande's taijutsu reliant style) and Sasuke doesn't have anything close to that nature, so she basically runs him down and eventually hits him. 

Plus, with no restrictions in second scenario, Tsuande wins the moment Katsyu comes out to play.

*No contest here.*


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2014)

Izaya said:


> GG Sasuke



She was drunk in that scene.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

This Sasuke underestimation is disgusting.

VotE Sasuke's stats with three tomoe Sharingan + CS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sannin arc Naruto's.

Kabuto was doing well against Tsunade and Naruto managed to fight back against Kabuto.

May I remind you that these guys were reacting to Juubito in their EMS/BSM states? That tells something of  Sasuke's strength. 

Tsunade has shown nothing that would imply she is anywhere near fast enough to blitz Sasuke. 

Sasuke with his Sharingan is able to see the chakra in Tsunade's fist and he should know better and not try to block it or anything.

Plus if blood is spilled and Sasuke is still alive th ings are going to get very bad for Tsunade.

She is not winning this with any less than high diff at least. She could possibly even lose.


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## Zynn (Nov 20, 2014)

Considering Sasuke's arrogance, I doubt that guy'd think to 'lower himself' by using underhanded tactic such as taking advantage of Tsunade's phobia. If that's the case, Tsunade only needs one full powered flick to the head to win this, as Sasuke's skull's hardly as thick as Naruto's (he also lacks Naruto's hax healing power).


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Arrogance? He isn't fighting Naruto here. Sasuke would definitely take advantage of Tsunade's phobia if it allowed him to win/survive. 

Tsunade's finger flick barely made a scratch on Naruto. It won't do any significant damage to Sasuke plus it gets dodged easily. Tsunade is dead if she goes at Sasuke like she went at Naruto outside the restaurant.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 20, 2014)

I can't believe this manga is over and someone would still make this thread.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Just noticed the second scenario.

I mean how could Sasuke possibly lose? CS enhanced Chidori through the heart while Tsunade is paralyzed from fear.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I can't believe this manga is over and someone would still make this thread.



People still make DBZ threads...


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## Zynn (Nov 20, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Arrogance? He isn't fighting Naruto here. Sasuke would definitely take advantage of Tsunade's phobia if it allowed him to win/survive.
> 
> Tsunade's finger flick barely made a scratch on Naruto. It won't do any significant damage to Sasuke plus it gets dodged easily. Tsunade is dead if she goes at Sasuke like she went at Naruto outside the restaurant.



Well, what is the purpose of argument in this thread, then? Sasuke only needs like a half pint of blood and Tsunade'll be left a blabbering wreck. The only thing he needs afterwards is a Chidori to the face and the battle'd be over.


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## Kai (Nov 20, 2014)

With no knowledge on the table, blood wouldn't even be shed on Tsunade's end before she absolutely crushed Sasuke.

With knowledge of her phobia on the table, I don't see how Sasuke can lose. Tsunade was about to punch Kabuto in the face and completely stopped her attack the moment Kabuto cut himself. Sasuke does whatever he wants to Tsunade after she's stunned and mentally quivers.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> With no knowledge on the table, blood wouldn't even be shed on Tsunade's end before she absolutely crushed Sasuke.



With what feats does part 1 rusty Tsunade absolutely crush VotE Sasuke?

Sasuke has the smarts and tools to avoid getting Hulksmashed.


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## ShadowReaper (Nov 20, 2014)

Still a stomp. Part 1 Sauske is a fodder level.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Then is Tsunade as well.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

wtf is this???? and you had the nerve to restrict sasuke like a unrestricted one had a better chance?


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

With no knowledge, Sasuke gets fucking stomped. With knowledge, he gets defeated unless he practices slitting his wrists.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

He doesn't, Itachi. Sasuke's stats while using CS > Kabuto's. With Sharingan he knows to avoid getting hit by Tsunade directly.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

saikyou said:


> He doesn't, Itachi. Sasuke's stats while using CS > Kabuto's. With Sharingan he knows to avoid getting hit by Tsunade directly.



What suggests that he's even going to activate CS or use Sharingan anyway? He has no knowledge and Tsunade's a very bad opponent to underestimate, even if she's rusty. If she counters him, she kills him.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Tsunade has no knowledge either. No reason for her to go for the killing hit right from the bat.


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## Itachі (Nov 20, 2014)

They are both going to try and kill each other, it's not like she's not going to try to kill him anyway. I doubt she's going to put much effort in, but I still see her killing him quite easily. Though Sasuke is a dangerous opponent to underestimate too, I doubt that he's going to activate CS.


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## Ghost (Nov 20, 2014)

Imo how it goes:

Tsunade absolutely outclasses Sasuke in their first encounter. The difference between Tsunade and (sharinganless) Sasuke is too big and Sasuke would activate Sharingan and CS. Now Sasuke should be able to tango with Tsunade just like Kabuto could. 

Tsunade should still win though. Sharingan sees the chakra packed in Tsunade's fist so Sasuke should realize to avoid getting hit but he has no knowledge of Ranshinso which really screws him over. There is still the possibility of Sasuke landing Chidori though.

So Tsunade high diff most of the time.

SC2: Sasuke takes it easily.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 20, 2014)

Tsunade beats this Sasuke in all out combat, but how is her performance against Naruto evidence? The gap in Naruto's and Sasuke's taijutsu was huge to the point Kakashi could outright ignore it while being forced to use both hands with Sasuke, before even learning Lee's moves. Sasuke himself raped Naruto and his clone army when it came to Taijutsu in part 1.

She was going easy on him of course, but still.

Anyway...

He loses scenario 1. He can't exactly blitz her either, and his only option is going in close, and with this knowledge he will do it and die very bloody and horrible death.

Scenario 2 is a stomp in his favor though. Stab his hand or some shit to draw blood, she's paralyzed by the sight of it, he then walks up to her and stabs her in the face.


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## Ruse (Nov 20, 2014)

Sasuke gets destroyed.


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)

Yeah Tsunade is going to blitz him, just like she blitzed an inferior Kabuto. Sasuke has similar stats to Kabuto in terms of his speed and taijutsu skill but is better suited to fighting Tsunade due to the power gained from his _Juin _and 3 tomoe Sharingan. Yeah he probably does lose due to her regeneration, boss summon, experience and his inability to maintain his Juin but it's not a stomp by any means. 

The VOTE protags were bordering on high Jounin level I feel, hell I could argue KN1 Naruto with Gamabunta would beat 95% of the Jounin shown in the series.


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## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2014)

I came here hoping to see some minor restrictions in order to make it a balanced fight. Like Tsunade sleeping and drunk and Sasuke having a Kunai in his hands in front of her. But then i see there are no restrictions.

To make it worse. I see people saying Sasuke wins this. Enough Narutoforums for today.


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)

But was Tsunade drunk against Kabuto?

Cause if I recall, that fight wasn't a stomp at all. In fact the guy was getting the better of her for a while. Now attach a Sharingan and a Cursed Seal to Kabuto. I don't doubt she wins but you'd be hard-pressed to suggest it's given Kabuto had more then a shot of winning without the luxuries Sasuke has.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2014)

Tsunade rips open the ground and closes it after Sasuke falls in.

Zero difficulty.



Ersatz said:


> Sasuke has similar stats to Kabuto in terms of his speed and taijutsu skill but is better suited to fighting Tsunade due to the power gained from his _Juin _and 3 tomoe Sharingan. Yeah he probably does lose due to her regeneration, boss summon, experience and his inability to maintain his Juin but it's not a stomp by any means.



Those stats don't reflect enhancements gained by using things such as Chakra-intensive maneuvers or the Hyōrōgan either, so don't act like base Sasuke so much as even approaches the bolstered Kabuto that fought Tsunade. That's just silly. His base stats are more similar to Naruto's than Kabuto's, and he lacks the ability to negate Tsunade's physical strength, which was pivotal in roided up Kabuto's match with the out-of-breath rusty Tsunade.

The Sharingan would have made no difference in the event that Tsunade decided to take advantage of her adversary's forced close-proximity to trade shots, but those Scalpels would. That shoulder-charge would have killed Sasuke.

The brat isn't better equipped to fight Tsunade than Kabuto is, and I'm willing to bet that he won't run away first either, since he can't recover from that fatigue like the medic could.

Also:

_*"Put on as tough a look as you want...//you're just an out-of-place little Genin.// Sure, I expected something from that demon sealed inside you.//But now, being face to face with the Three Great Shinobi, you're a total disappointment.// Right now, you're nothing but a tiny bug…"*_​
Kabuto made it rather apparent that he accounted for the emergence of the power of the Nine Tails's Chakra, and even still stated that Naruto was a total disappointment and nothing but an insect now that he was standing next to a Sannin. We can trust his judgement because he witnessed Kn0 during the Chūnin Exam Finals and had just finished engaging decades-out-of-practice-and-shape hemophobic Tsunade of the Prodigal Three. At the very least, it more or less proves beyond a doubt that even gone rotten a member of the legendary Sannin is far superior to Kn0 Naruto.

"Insect" Kn0 Naruto was absolutely beating the tar out of Sasuke before the third-tomoe activated, so if anything Sasuke's going to get demolished well before the Curse Mark and Sharingan even cross his mind. (Not that it really matters if he uses them either way.)

This thread is a gargantuan stomp. _Literally_. _Tsūtenkyaku_ anyone?



> The VOTE protags were bordering on high Jounin level I feel, hell I could argue KN1 Naruto with Gamabunta would beat 95% of the Jounin shown in the series.



That's only because Gamabunta _alone_ would beat 95% of the Jōnin shown in the series. And that would only apply to Naruto, because Sasuke can't compare to Gamabunta himself.

Bunta would swat him like a fly, which is probably why he was never summoned in their fight.


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## Hero (Nov 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I can't believe this manga is over and someone would still make this thread.



I'm literally crying right now. Literally sitting here and asking myself the same question


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## Amol (Nov 21, 2014)

I feel pity for anyone who think Sasuke stands a ghost of chance here.
Tsunade turns him into a paste, curse seal or not .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 21, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Yeah Tsunade is going to blitz him, just like she blitzed an inferior Kabuto. Sasuke has similar stats to Kabuto in terms of his speed and taijutsu skill



Except that Kabuto consumed a soldier pill, which gave him an obvious physical boost. He was both faster than Tsunade and possessed more stamina than her too, but even with those advantages he couldn't best her without having to use her fear of blood against her. Lets also remind ourselves that Kabuto effortlessly schooled Naruto in close quarters, even with his wrists slit open, and Naruto is only a point behind Sasuke in taijutsu and speed. 



> but is better suited to fighting Tsunade due to the power gained from his _Juin _and 3 tomoe Sharingan. Yeah he probably does lose due to her regeneration, boss summon, experience and his inability to maintain his Juin but it's not a stomp by any means.



I like how you imply that Sasuke would even have time to use his Juin, especially whenever he has no knowledge on his opponent. Tsunade will immediately run up to him and rip him a new asshole, and his sharingan will be of little use to him in rectifying his situation.​​


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## Ersa (Nov 21, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Those stats don't reflect enhancements gained by using things such as Chakra-intensive maneuvers or the Hyōrōgan either, so don't act like base Sasuke so much as even approaches the bolstered Kabuto that fought Tsunade. That's just silly. His base stats are more similar to Naruto's than Kabuto's, and he lacks the ability to negate Tsunade's physical strength, which was pivotal in roided up Kabuto's match with the out-of-breath rusty Tsunade.


Kabuto has the same strength stat as VOTE Sasuke and the same speed stat. This pretty much fits in line with him admitting CQC is not his forte considering Sauce's intensive training in taijutsu to make those gains. His base stats are certainly much closer physically to Kabuto then Naruto. 

Hyōrōgan is cool, it gives the user more stamina and apparently stat enhancement. I see no evidence to suggest it was anything out of this world, in fact I'd say there's a lack of evidence to suggest that the boost it gives is significant unless you have some manga panels? 

I think the fact it never resurfaced in the manga is a clear indicator of the power boost it gave...


> The Sharingan would have made no difference in the event that Tsunade decided to take advantage of her adversary's forced close-proximity to trade shots, but those Scalpels would. That shoulder-charge would have killed Sasuke.


I think you're underestimating the advantage pre-cognition grants its user. Especially against a taijutsu master like Tsunade, the difference between just 1 tomoe is huge as seen here . Sasuke can keep track of casual Orochimaru when with just 1 less tomoe he couldn't track Base Lee. With full 3 tomoe Sharingan he's got room to maneuver around in CQC and avoid getting one-shotted.

Kabuto was doing decent in CQC against her even without a Sharingan.

You give Kabuto a Sharingan and I'd assure you he'd do a lot better.

Yes but why would Sasuke get in that position? Kabuto knew he could get in position to sever her muscles and knew that he'd probably take a weakened blow of some sort in return. Sasuke wouldn't be in position to get the shoulder because he can't sever her muscles.



> The brat isn't better equipped to fight Tsunade than Kabuto is, and I'm willing to bet that he won't run away first either, since he can't recover from that fatigue like the medic could.


The brat has slightly inferior stats to Kabuto but possesses more tools for CQC including pseudo-senjutsu to increase his physical stats and a matured Sharingan to stay a step ahead of her.



> Also:
> 
> _*"Put on as tough a look as you want...//you're just an out-of-place little Genin.// Sure, I expected something from that demon sealed inside you.//But now, being face to face with the Three Great Shinobi, you're a total disappointment.// Right now, you're nothing but a tiny bug?"*_​
> Kabuto made it rather apparent that he accounted for the emergence of the power of the Nine Tails's Chakra, and even still stated that Naruto was a total disappointment and nothing but an insect now that he was standing next to a Sannin. We can trust his judgement because he witnessed Kn0 during the Chūnin Exam Finals and had just finished engaging decades-out-of-practice-and-shape hemophobic Tsunade of the Prodigal Three. At the very least, it more or less proves beyond a doubt that even gone rotten a member of the legendary Sannin is far superior to Kn0 Naruto.


The thing is Kabuto doesn't think highly of Naruto, so he underestimates him heavily. He basically says Sasuke is a genius and Naruto is a dud. I mean he gets cocky and goes down (or double KO) to base Naruto a few chapters after. What Kabuto witnessed was not full power KN0 Naruto either, the CE Naruto did not have the pronounced whiskers or the fox eyes. It wasn't a full KN0 transformation. That was a weaker Naruto as well.

Kabuto's cocky statement should really be taken with a grain of salt all things considered.

I have no doubt Rusty Tsuande is superior to KN0 Naruto but I don't think the difference is as big as people think. For starters I don't see Kabuto having a great time fighting KN0 Naruto in CQC, considering Sasuke with Sharingan struggled until the 3rd tomoe.



> "Insect" Kn0 Naruto was absolutely beating the tar out of Sasuke before the third-tomoe activated, so if anything Sasuke's going to get demolished well before the Curse Mark and Sharingan even cross his mind. (Not that it really matters if he uses them either way.)


Good thing Sasuke has the 3rd tomoe here then?

I don't see Rusty Tsunade being much faster then "Insect" KN0 Naruto either considering Wave Arc Naruto was running circles around Haku whose only outstanding trait was his speed and the casual ease in which he tossed around VOTE Sasuke with his Sharingan on. 



> This thread is a gargantuan stomp. _Literally_. _Tsūtenkyaku_ anyone?


Because it worked so well on Kabuto? If Sasuke uses the right tools (Sharingan/Juin) then he can dodge it just as easily if not more easily then Kabuto did).

And this really isn't me underrating Tsunade, I just rate the Part I protags quite highly.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 21, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Tsunade beats this Sasuke in all out combat, but how is her performance against Naruto evidence? The gap in Naruto's and Sasuke's taijutsu was huge to the point Kakashi could outright ignore it while being forced to use both hands with Sasuke, before even learning Lee's moves. Sasuke himself raped Naruto and his clone army when it came to Taijutsu in part 1.
> 
> She was going easy on him of course, but still.
> 
> ...



I'll agree, Part 1 Naruto's Taijutsu was absolute crap and the gaps were huge between Sasuke and Naruto's abilities in that specific area. But this is a Sannin vs a Genin, and the gaps are even larger. I'm sorry, There's no way Part 1 Sasuke, even at CS2 on his very best goddamn day, is going to beat Tsunade on her absolute worst day. I just can't see it happening unless you restricted Tsunade to like, one finger.


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## LostSelf (Nov 21, 2014)

[I think this part was directed to me]



Ersatz said:


> But was Tsunade drunk against Kabuto?



She wasn't, but she was fatigated.



> Cause if I recall, that fight wasn't a stomp at all. In fact the guy was getting the better of her for a while. Now attach a Sharingan and a Cursed Seal to Kabuto. I don't doubt she wins but you'd be hard-pressed to suggest it's given Kabuto had more then a shot of winning without the luxuries Sasuke has.



I have honestly a hard time seeing this. This is the Sasuke that was ragdolled by Itachi with minimal effort. While Kurenai at the very least was reacting to a reasonably more aggresive Itachi (more than he was against Sasuke).

If you see it this way, you can tell the difference between Sasuke's lvl and a Jounin. Let alone Tsunade's level, despite how amazing Chunin Sasuke's (or other Chunin in part 1) were, Kishimoto still highlighted the diference between Chunin and Jounin.

Kimimaro stomping the sound 4, and those sound 4 that needed cursed seal to defeat 2 fodder jounin also says it.

Different guys for sure, but i doubt that Sasuke, even with cursed seal, is confortably above the Sound 4 (fighting at the same time).

And that was a gap between Jounin and Chunin. Now imagine the gap between a Low Kage, wich Tsunade was.


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## Ghost (Nov 21, 2014)

I find it hilarious people are saying Sasuke won't go at Tsunade with Sharingan activated due to him having no knowledge, but Tsunade somehow decides to go all out from the start. Last time Tsunade fought a kid (who was also a Genin) she didn't take him seriously at all. Granted it was not a fight to death but still.

*Sasuke's strength:*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Genma to CE Sasuke: "You're already at the Chuunin level"

This version of Sasuke was way faster and more skilled in Taijutsu than Naruto who was able to fight back against Kabuto even though he was getting his ass handed to him. Last time Naruto went against Lee's Taijutsu he got schooled hard. Naruto's stats might've improved a bit during the CE but there is no reason to assume he would fare any better in a Taijutsu rematch. After the Sannin fight there was the rooftop fight between Naruto and Sasuke in which they were quite equal. Sasuke was still superior in Taijutsu and Naruto had to resort to Tajyuu Kage Bunshin. Note that Sasuke didn't use CS here. So yeah Naruto's speed and Taijutsu skill are more than just a step below Sasuke's during the Sannin arc.

Any sane person can see that Sasuke at full power would've fared against Kabuto a lot better than Naruto did, and that VotE Sasuke would stomp CE Sasuke.

*VotE fight:*

Fight starts with Sasuke completely over powering Naruto with _a single arm_. Sitting in the barrel unlocked CS lvl 2 and raised Sasuke's base stats tremendously. Sasuke wonders if he had become this strong how strong would he be if he were to actually use the seal's power. Naruto also says that Sasuke has become way stronger.

As the fight continues Sasuke keeps destroying Naruto in CQC with his superior speed and Taijutsu skill. All landed hits have made Naruto throw up blood. Using Kage Bunshin Naruto manages to send Sasuke flying head first into the statue but Sasuke gets up like it's nothing and proceeds to speed blitz. All that without even using CS or Sharingan. Kabuto was clearly faster than Naruto but I don't remember him blitzing at any point. Plus this Naruto is somewhat superior to the Sannin arc one. Sasuke decides it's time to kill Naruto and proceeds to go at him with both Sharingan and CS activated completely annihilating the latter in CQC. Naruto would've been dead if not for Kurama.

Sasuke has already shown as good if not better speed, and Taijutsu skill compared to Kabuto. 

Naruto's emotions get the better of him and Kurama's chakra starts flowing in him. KN0 completely outclasses Sasuke to the point of blitzing. That level of speed is way above Kabuto's. 

Sharingan's third tomoe awakens and Sasuke goes from getting lolblitzed into casually dodging Naruto's attacks.

Naruto goes into KN1 (way stronger and faster than KN0) and Sasuke still manages to dodge Naruto's attack even without using CS.




It's pretty hilarious how people are comparing Sannin arc Naruto to VotE Sasuke. Former is high level Genin and latter is pushing Jounin levels.

Little drop of blood is all that is required to create an opening and a bit more and Tsunade is completely paralyzed out of fear.

I see Tsunade resorting to Rashinso in the first scenario and winning high diff most times. There is still a chance though Sasuke gets an opening to land Chidori. 

In the second scenario Sasuke pretty much stomps due to obvious reasons.

Please do remember I'm only talking about *part 1 rusty Tsunade who has the fear of blood. *


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## SSMG (Nov 21, 2014)

Tsunade can tank everything Sasuke throws at her to land this.
Little drop of blood is all that is required to create an opening and a bit more and Tsunade is completely paralyzed out of fear.
Effectively breaking every bone in Sasuke's body.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 21, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Tsunade can tank everything Sasuke throws at her to land this.
> Little drop of blood is all that is required to create an opening and a bit more and Tsunade is completely paralyzed out of fear.
> Effectively breaking every bone in Sasuke's body.



That's not breaking every bone in Sasuke's body....


That's obliterating him and turning him into paste. He's not living through that, period.


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## Ghost (Nov 21, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Tsunade can tank everything Sasuke throws at her to land this.
> Little drop of blood is all that is required to create an opening and a bit more and Tsunade is completely paralyzed out of fear.
> Effectively breaking every bone in Sasuke's body.



Give some panels that imply Tsunade can tank a Chidori. 

Sasuke dodges that kick if Kabuto could.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 21, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Give some panels that imply Tsunade can tank a Chidori.
> 
> Sasuke dodges that kick if Kabuto could.



Like Sasuke even gets to LAND that Chidori.

CS1 isn't cutting it buddy.



And Sasuke's not on Kabuto's level at this point, that's for sure. You're putting CS2 feats on this Sasuke, where CS2 is disabled.


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## Ghost (Nov 21, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Like Sasuke even gets to LAND that Chidori.


Nothing more than a drop of blood is required to create a safe opening. Can be done without. But it'd very hard for Sasuke. Wouldn't bank on it.



> CS1 isn't cutting it buddy.


Considering that base Sasuke already has better speed feats than Kabuto pretty much tells us CS and three tomoe Sharingan are going to allow Sasuke to fight in CQC with Tsunade.



> And Sasuke's not on Kabuto's level at this point, that's for sure.


Sasuke is above him. Direct no prep 1 vs 1 combat wise.


> You're putting CS2 feats on this Sasuke, where CS2 is disabled.


Excuse me but what the fuck are you talking about? When ever did I bring up CS lvl 2 in that post? CS lvl 2's only feats are casually reacting to KN1's speed, taking a hit from him and matching Kurama boosted Rasengan with his CS boosted Chidori.

Read my post above and try to refute it.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 21, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Nothing more than a drop of blood is required to create a safe opening. Can be done without. But it'd very hard for Sasuke. Wouldn't bank on it.


I'm not an unreasonable man. Maybe if Sasuke was pushing everything he got, he might be able to tag her after getting her with some blood. But I highly doubt it, but there's a chance if he gets her in her brain with Chidori...

...

but that's implying he knows about Tsunade's blood phobia, which he doesn't. 

So yeah, Sasuke's probably going to die if he tries to blitz.



> Considering that base Sasuke already has better speed feats than Kabuto pretty much tells us CS and three tomoe Sharingan are going to allow Sasuke to fight in CQC with Tsunade.


Kabuto was compared to Kakashi in skill. Sasuke is nowhere near Kakashi's level, and Kakashi level is what's needed to fight against Tsunade 1v1 CQC. Now, given the blood thing, he might have a chance as stated above with Chidori if he gets her in the brain, but that's his only shot, and he'd have to know about the blood phobia and actively screw her over with hit. More than likely, she'd disrupt his movements with her chakra strength, or if she's feeling vindictive, fuck with his nervous system like she did to Kabuto.



> Sasuke is above him. Direct no prep 1 vs 1 combat wise.


Yeah, not happening. Kabuto would slaughter him 1v1.


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## Ghost (Nov 21, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Maybe if Sasuke was pushing everything he got, he might be able to tag her after getting her with some blood.


Sasuke doesn't need to "push with everything he got" considering Kabuto who is slower and less skilled in Taijutsu managed to tag Tsunade.


> But I highly doubt it, but there's a chance if he gets her in her brain with Chidori...


Sasuke doesn't need to head shot. Chidori landing on Tsunade is going to result into a lot of bleeding and Tsunade's phobia will kick in. 


> but that's implying he knows about Tsunade's blood phobia, which he doesn't.


Sasuke doesn't have to have knowledge on Tsunade's phobia in order for it to work. The fear is still and blood spilling is still very much probable. 



> So yeah, Sasuke's probably going to die if he tries to blitz.


Sasuke's Sharingan managed to track KN1 Naruto's Chakra Arms. He'll be able to read Tsunade's linear punches easily. 



> Kabuto was compared to Kakashi in skill.


That's nothing but a statement. Holds as much as value as Iruka's statement of Hiruzen being the God of Shinobi, title which was retconned to Hashirama. Kakashi has better feats than Kabuto, so no, Kabuto is not on Kakashi's level. Without prep at least.


> Sasuke is nowhere near Kakashi's level,


He is not that far form his level but yeah part 1 Kakashi would school part 1 Sasuke.


> and Kakashi level is what's needed to fight against Tsunade 1v1 CQC.


We already saw that Kabuto's level is required to be able to hang with rusty Tsunade and Sasuke at his strongest is above that.



> Now, given the blood thing, he might have a chance as stated above with Chidori if he gets her in the brain,


As I've already said: head shot is not needed. Phobia kicks in if Sasuke lands Chidori on her torso.



> she'd disrupt his movements with her chakra strength,


Sasuke can see the huge amount of chakra concentrated in Tsunade's fists/feet and he should realize to be careful. Smashing the ground is a good strategy to keep Sasuke and his Chidori at bay though.


> or if she's feeling vindictive, fuck with his nervous system like she did to Kabuto.


This is they way I see Tsunade winning. I believe she would resort to Rashinso after Sasuke giving her a good fight. Sasuke has no knowledge of it and wouldn't realize to avoid it.



> Yeah, not happening. Kabuto would slaughter him 1v1.


Sorry but Sasuke's feats shit on Kabuto's. Kabuto is not taking Sasuke without prep. Sasuke's chakra pressure alone made Kabuto shiver.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 21, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Nothing more than a drop of blood is required to create a safe opening. Can be done without. But it'd very hard for Sasuke. Wouldn't bank on it.



Sasuke has no knowledge so I doubt he'd randomly cut himself to draw blood unless she used some form of killing intent like Orochi did. Otherwise it's unlikely that he'd land Chidori when Tsunade can easily mess up the ground and throw him off balance.



> Considering that base Sasuke already has better speed feats than Kabuto pretty much tells us CS and three tomoe Sharingan are going to allow Sasuke to fight in CQC with Tsunade.



Not really. Kabuto had to purposely tire out Tsunade and take soldier pills just to keep up with her in CQC and even then Kabuto was about to resort to using her blood phobia to get an upper hand against her. I don't think using what an enhanced Kabuto did to a more so tired rusty Tsunade should be used to say Sasuke would fight in CQC with her.


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## HyperfangTM (Nov 21, 2014)

Wait?! What?!

Kabuto was said to be Kakashi's equal at that point in time.  And yet that former had to tire out Tsunade and take a solider pill, just so he can tango with her.  Further more, are those who says Sasuke will win, think that Sasuke(CS2 or not) is equal to Kakashi of part 1? 

Either way, i agree with the pirate on wheels.​


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## SSMG (Nov 21, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Give some panels that imply Tsunade can tank a Chidori.
> 
> Sasuke dodges that kick if Kabuto could.



When I said tank I meant regen and run through everything Sasuke has.. Which is effectively tanking it still.

Kabuto utilized tsunades fear of blood for their fight.

 Also do we have anything to compare kabutos speed and reactions to Sasuke?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> His base stats are certainly much closer physically to Kabuto then Naruto.



No.



> Hyōrōgan is cool, it gives the user more stamina and apparently stat enhancement. I see no evidence to suggest it was anything out of this world.



Just look at what it did to Akamaru.

That, and driving Chakra to the feet and exploding off the ground allowed Sakura to blitz somebody more than 1.5 tiers faster than she was, and yet Naruto driving all of his Chakra to his feet could just barely get away from Kiba once he popped the pill. Even if Naruto's not as good at that as Sakura that still points towards a drastic increase upon the ingestion of the pill, which makes sense because stamina didn't seem to be an issue when Kiba was facing Naruto and everybody who knew what the pill was still figured that Naruto was in trouble once it came out.

Kabuto had that boost and the Chakra-charging boost on top of it, both of which are significant, so it's a big deal.



> I think the fact it never resurfaced in the manga is a clear indicator of the power boost it gave?



Well you're wrong, because how often something pops up has nothing to do with how powerful it is.



> I think you're underestimating the advantage pre-cognition grants its user.



And clearly I think you're just taking the ability way out of context to mean more than it actually does. It is one factor, and a largely inconsequential one at that. See below.



> You give Kabuto a Sharingan and I'd assure you he'd do a lot better.



No he wouldn't, because nothing they did in the exchange would be affected by the Sharingan considering that Kabuto never had a problem with being able to react, and that's all the Sharingan can affect, reactions. But that's not the issue so it isn't pertinent; it's not like he's transforming into a Super Saiyan or something. It won't make Kabuto's Scalpels longer so he can touch Tsunade without having to get so close and it won't allow Kabuto to do the physically impossible and both advance towards Tsunade while at the same time retreating. Also, the Sharingan can only read into movements because it can see muscle tensions leading up to them, it isn't as helpful against maneuvers that only happen in response to something the user is already doing- look at Sharingan Sasuke vs base Kakashi on the Bridge in the Land of Iron for reference; there is no chance to abort the maneuver and back off at that point. 



> The brat has slightly inferior stats to Kabuto but possesses more tools for CQC including pseudo-senjutsu to increase his physical stats and a matured Sharingan to stay a step ahead of her.



They're more than slightly inferior. The databook don't consider Chakra-intensive maneuvers and the Hyōrōgan. Chakra intensive maneuvers alone let Sakura more than make up for a 1.5 difference in speed in order to blitz Ino. Kabuto, as a medical ninja, would be especially adept with those and be using them all of the time. The Hyōrōgan is just boosts the effects even further.

He was certainly far and beyond Sasuke, so you're making a mistake trying to put Kabuto and Sasuke near each other and then adding the Sharingan and Curse Mark on top of it, because base Sasuke simply doesn't even begin to compare. Sasuke isn't staying a step ahead of Tsunade, especially not a Tsunade that isn't out of breath, and he can't strike her without her taking advantage of his forced close proximity, which will result in him dying unlike Kabuto because, again, her strength will still be intact no matter what he does. So what if we grant that he'll be able to react easier, all he can do is throw an extra punch or something, which is just going to get his arm broken- it does him no good.

For previously mentioned reasons you give Kabuto a Sharingan and the exchange stays the same- the Sharingan wouldn't allow Kabuto to hit Tsunade while retreating at the same time,  and so that opportunity to counter is inevitable due to the very fact that he has to be in melee range to pull off the maneuver. That is a physical impossibility to move in both directions at once, and the Sharingan does not serve to get around it.



> The thing is Kabuto doesn't think highly of Naruto, so he underestimates him heavily.



Kabuto doesn't underestimate Naruto because he doesn't think highly of him. No, Kabuto had no problem admitting to himself even as early as the Forest of Death that if Naruto ever truly mastered his Chakra usage he could become a monster. In actuality it's the other way around, the entire reason Kabuto didn't think highly of Naruto in the Grassy Waves Prairie encounter was the very fact that he already knew what Naruto was capable of at the time, otherwise we wouldn't have him accounting for the emergence of the Nine Tails's power at all.

Bringing up what happened to Sasuke says nothing because we already have Kabuto's own take on the matter. Kabuto knowing about the Nine Tails and still saying Naruto amounted to nothing but a tiny bug would simply make the gap between roided up Kabuto and Sasuke all the more obvious.

I'm also apprehensive about saying that transformation was somehow "weaker" simply because he didn't have the didn't have the pronounced whiskers and fox eyes considering that this transformation was literally aglow with these huge amounts of Chakra while the others weren't. It may have simply been because Naruto drew into the power completely of his own accord as opposed to it just sipping out because he was getting emotional.



> Good thing Sasuke has the 3rd tomoe here then?
> 
> I don't see Rusty Tsunade being much faster then "Insect" KN0 Naruto either considering Wave Arc Naruto was running circles around Haku whose only outstanding trait was his speed and the casual ease in which he tossed around VOTE Sasuke with his Sharingan on.



Maybe you don't know what "well before the Curse Mark and Sharingan even cross his mind" means. He won't even get around to the Third Tomoe before she kills him.

Kn0 never ran circles around Haku, by the way. Haku's speed is only special inside the mirrors, and Kn0 just grabbed Haku after he slammed into the ground before he even went back to the mirror and punched him.

Tsunade's feats of blitzing Shizune, getting up and running behind Kabuto in the time it took him to blink, intercepting and even popping Orochimaru in spite of inconvenient starting positions and multiple injuries, and intercepting Manda with Gamabunta's building sized metal tantō which could have only slowed her down are a lot more impressive.



> Because it worked so well on Kabuto? If Sasuke uses the right tools (Sharingan/Juin) then he can dodge it just as easily if not more easily then Kabuto did).



No he can't. Kabuto only ever managed to get out of the way while Tsunade was in free-fall, and he knew how far he needed to jump, as did Orochimaru. Even if Sasuke notices, he has no reason to do anything more than dodge by a few inches (it'd really be easier to try and strike back that way), as he doesn't have any info on Tsunade's titanic strength.

She stomps, _at best_ he steps to the side, and the resulting shockwave snaps his spine up into his brain meaning he dies anyway.

Good flipping game.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 21, 2014)

I don't understand why people keep bringing up Kabuto.

Does Sasuke have chakra scalpels?

Can he nullify Tsunade's strength so that she _cannot_ manipulate the terrain to her liking in order to create openings? Sauce can't exactly just sidestep a leg drop and expect to dodge any follow up.

Hell, Grown Sasuke couldn't even fucking budge Killer B with a direct kick to the neck. Tsunade was at least as strong as he was with her swinging around building sized swords and what not. Sasuke beats himself attempting to hurt Tsunade.


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## Ersa (Nov 21, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> No.


Hm?

Naruto
Spe: 3
Str: 3
Tai: 2	

Sasuke
Spe: 3.5
Str: 3
Tai: 2	.5

Kabuto
Spe: 3.5
Str: 3
Tai: 3.5

Kabuto > Sasuke > Naruto.

Which is basically what the manga showed, Kabuto schooled Naruto and Sasuke generally held the edge against Naruto.




> Just look at what it did to Akamaru.


Replenished his chakra which enabled him to fight a lot better? Yeah I agree, I didn't really see a massive stat boost like the one you're implying.



> That, and driving Chakra to the feet and exploding off the ground allowed Sakura to blitz somebody more than 1.5 tiers faster than she was, and yet Naruto driving all of his Chakra to his feet could just barely get away from Kiba once he popped the pill. Even if Naruto's not as good at that as Sakura that still points towards a drastic increase upon the ingestion of the pill, which makes sense because stamina didn't seem to be an issue when Kiba was facing Naruto and everybody who knew what the pill was still figured that Naruto was in trouble once it came out.


I don't see how stamina was not an issue considering they'd just gotten out of the FoD and everyone looked pretty beaten up. And yeah Naruto was in trouble, it's a pretty big advantage to replenish yourself in the middle of a fight...



> Kabuto had that boost and the Chakra-charging boost on top of it, both of which are significant, so it's a big deal.


Pretty sure anyone with any measure of chakra control has this so called chakra charging boost. If Part I Sakura can do it I'd bank on Sasuke being able to do the same considering Part II Kakashi was still praising his chakra control back in Part I. Not to the same extent possibly but enough to ensure he still gets some sort of boost. Whatever the soldier pills boost is, nothing suggests to me it's more significant then KN0 or the first stage of Juin which statements were made on the boost to stats.




> No he wouldn't, because nothing they did in the exchange would be affected by the Sharingan considering that Kabuto never had a problem with being able to react, and that's all the Sharingan can affect, reactions. But that's not the issue so it isn't pertinent; it's not like he's transforming into a Super Saiyan or something. It won't make Kabuto's Scalpels longer so he can touch Tsunade without having to get so close and it won't allow Kabuto to do the physically impossible and both advance towards Tsunade while at the same time retreating. Also, the Sharingan can only read into movements because it can see muscle tensions leading up to them, it isn't as helpful against maneuvers that only happen in response to something the user is already doing- look at Sharingan Sasuke vs base Kakashi on the Bridge in the Land of Iron for reference; there is no chance to abort the maneuver and back off at that point.


I could see Kabuto avoiding this chop with Sharingan, because he'd see it coming in advance and moving pre-preemptively rather then seeing it and being unable to react. 

Sasuke was near blind and had just come out of a deathmatch so I'm not sure he was in the condition needed to outmaneuver a fresh Kakashi at that stage.

I don't really see how improving his reflexes and giving him more time to react doesn't help Kabuto strengthen his admitted weakness in taijutsu. Look what Sharingan did to Obito for example, it's worlds apart. And that was 2 tomoe, not 3 tomoe. 



> They're more than slightly inferior. The databook don't consider Chakra-intensive maneuvers and the Hyōrōgan. Chakra intensive maneuvers alone let Sakura more than make up for a 1.5 difference in speed in order to blitz Ino. Kabuto, as a medical ninja, would be especially adept with those and be using them all of the time. The Hyōrōgan is just boosts the effects even further.


And the DB doesn't consider the Juin or the Sharingan. This card can be played both ways.



> He was certainly far and beyond Sasuke, so you're making a mistake trying to put Kabuto and Sasuke near each other and then adding the Sharingan and Curse Mark on top of it, because base Sasuke simply doesn't even begin to compare. Sasuke isn't staying a step ahead of Tsunade, especially not a Tsunade that isn't out of breath, and he can't strike her without her taking advantage of his forced close proximity, which will result in him dying unlike Kabuto because, again, her strength will still be intact no matter what he does. So what if we grant that he'll be able to react easier, all he can do is throw an extra punch or something, which is just going to get his arm broken- it does him no good.


Certainly beyond Sasuke but far and beyond is not something I'd agree with once we factor in Sasuke's boosts. And as I said I firmly believe rusty Tsunade wins this but this can be a tough fight if Sasuke plays his cards right.



> For previously mentioned reasons you give Kabuto a Sharingan and the exchange stays the same- the Sharingan wouldn't allow Kabuto to hit Tsunade while retreating at the same time,  and so that opportunity to counter is inevitable due to the very fact that he has to be in melee range to pull off the maneuver. That is a physical impossibility to move in both directions at once, and the Sharingan does not serve to get around it.


I disagree and I think there's multiple instances where Kabuto could've avoided getting hit if he had the benefits of improved reflexes and pre-cognition as pointed out above.



> Kabuto doesn't underestimate Naruto because he doesn't think highly of him. No, Kabuto had no problem admitting to himself even as early as the Forest of Death that if Naruto ever truly mastered his Chakra usage he could become a monster. In actuality it's the other way around, the entire reason Kabuto didn't think highly of Naruto in the Grassy Waves Prairie encounter was the very fact that he already knew what Naruto was capable of at the time, otherwise we wouldn't have him accounting for the emergence of the Nine Tails's power at all.


If he knew what Naruto was capable of you'd think he wouldn't double KO him against base Naruto. He's an arrogant prick, it cost him alot in his fight against Tsunade and it cost him against a "Genin". I take his statements with a grain of salt just like his "I am nearly Rikudo Sennin level" statement.



> I'm also apprehensive about saying that transformation was somehow "weaker" simply because he didn't have the didn't have the pronounced whiskers and fox eyes considering that this transformation was literally aglow with these huge amounts of Chakra while the others weren't. It may have simply been because Naruto drew into the power completely of his own accord as opposed to it just sipping out because he was getting emotional.


Eh, the huge amounts of chakra were present with Haku and at VOTE as well. Not sure how reliable that is as a gauge of the power of the transformation. I'd still bank on it being weaker considering his own chakra points was sealed whethas KN0 Naruto is his own chakra being empowered by Kurama. Not to mention everyone noticed Naruto was making rapid improvements in his stats as shown in both Sasuke's jealousy, Kakashi's words and his fairly rapid increase in DB stats.

Basically I feel 
The questionable KN0 CE Naruto =/= FP Tsunade Rescue Arc KN0 Naruto.



> Maybe you don't know what "well before the Curse Mark and Sharingan even cross his mind" means. He won't even get around to the Third Tomoe before she kills him.


If he chooses not to use them then I'd tend to agree with you.

But I think Sharingan will come out before he dies and then Juin once he realizes Tsunade is a beast.



> Kn0 never ran circles around Haku, by the way. Haku's speed is only special inside the mirrors, and Kn0 just grabbed Haku after he slammed into the ground before he even went back to the mirror and punched him.
> 
> Tsunade's feats of blitzing Shizune, getting up and running behind Kabuto in the time it took him to blink, intercepting and even popping Orochimaru in spite of inconvenient starting positions and multiple injuries, and intercepting Manda with Gamabunta's building sized metal tantō which could have only slowed her down are a lot more impressive.


Didn't he grab Haku as the latter tried to slip into another mirror which would still be classified as his mirror speed?

My point was KN0 was enough to push Naruto from a nigh fodder to heavily pressuring someone who nigh blitzed him previously. And VOTE Base Naruto is eons ahead of Wave Arc Naruto and he struggled against 3 tomoe Sasuke. At the very least this suggests to me that Sasuke can put up a better performance then Kabuto against Tsunade especially if his Juin comes into play.



> No he can't. Kabuto only ever managed to get out of the way while Tsunade was in free-fall, and he knew how far he needed to jump, as did Orochimaru. Even if Sasuke notices, he has no reason to do anything more than dodge by a few inches (it'd really be easier to try and strike back that way), as he doesn't have any info on Tsunade's titanic strength.
> 
> She stomps, _at best_ he steps to the side, and the resulting shockwave snaps his spine up into his brain meaning he dies anyway.
> 
> Good flipping game.


Sasuke is a cocky little shit but I'd bank on Sharingan coming out considering he's used it in almost every major fight in Part I, usually starting out with it. He'll see the chakra build up and dodge accordingly. Juin will probably come out after that and then Tsunade has a fight in her hands. One that she'll win reasonably comfortably either by using Sozo Saisei to outsustain Sasuke's Juin or using Katsuyu.

I really don't get this Genin get stomped by everyone circlejerk. They can do this level of destruction. They were most certainly not Chunin or Genin level, unless you want to tell me Ebisu or Iruka has that level of power.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 21, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> I'll agree, Part 1 Naruto's Taijutsu was absolute crap and the gaps were huge between Sasuke and Naruto's abilities in that specific area. But this is a Sannin vs a Genin, and the gaps are even larger. I'm sorry, There's no way Part 1 Sasuke, even at CS2 on his very best goddamn day, is going to beat Tsunade on her absolute worst day. I just can't see it happening unless you restricted Tsunade to like, one finger.



I actually agree with you, hence why I said he dies a horrific death.
Ranks are irrelevant here, but either way the gap is insurmountable as far as combat goes. 

The blood phobia thing pretty is an even bigger restriction than a finger though. She can't even move, let alone fight in any way because of it. I'm sure even he could come out top with her in that state.


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## iJutsu (Nov 21, 2014)

Katsuyu gg.

4 cs users couldn't even kill 2 fodder jounin, especially when you consider Tayuya's hax flute. Sasuke isn't doing shit to Tsunade.


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## Sans (Nov 21, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I find it hilarious people are saying Sasuke won't go at Tsunade with Sharingan activated due to him having no knowledge, but Tsunade somehow decides to go all out from the start.



I find every post you've made in this thread hilarious.


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## Ersa (Nov 21, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I find every post you've made in this thread hilarious.


To be fair, his posts are backed by manga panels.

I don't agree with his conclusion but the argument is solid enough.

People just can't see it through the Genin is fodder circlejerk.


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## Amol (Nov 22, 2014)

Part one Sasuke is on same level of Kabuto now .
Yay part 1 Sasuke was Jounin level !


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 22, 2014)

Kai said:


> With no knowledge on the table, blood wouldn't even be shed on Tsunade's end before she absolutely crushed Sasuke.
> 
> With knowledge of her phobia on the table, I don't see how Sasuke can lose. Tsunade was about to punch Kabuto in the face and completely stopped her attack the moment Kabuto cut himself. Sasuke does whatever he wants to Tsunade after she's stunned and mentally quivers.




*Spoiler*: __ 













Pretty much how I imagine scenario two going if Sasuke even thinks about stabbing himself around another legendary ninja.


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## trance (Nov 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, to be fair, he kinda overcame that fear against Orochimaru in the Forest of Death. 

Doesn't boost his chances here, though but at least we can say he dies without a trace of fear.


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## Ersa (Nov 22, 2014)

Amol said:


> Part one Sasuke is on same level of Kabuto now .
> Yay part 1 Sasuke was Jounin level !


Nothing implies he wasn't with 3 tomoe Sharingan and the second stage of his Juin. I mean Ebisu and young Kakashi are Jounin level too


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I find every post you've made in this thread hilarious.


/edge



Ersatz said:


> To be fair, his posts are backed by manga panels.
> 
> I don't agree with his conclusion but the argument is solid enough.
> 
> People just can't see it through the Genin is fodder circlejerk.



My conclusion is that Sasuke is able to give Tsunade a good fight in the first scenario. ie Tsunade wins but not easily.

People base the outcome of this fight in Tsunade being a Sannin and Sasuke being a genin.

Tsunade is far from her prime here and a weaker version of Sasuke was already said to be Chuunin level.

So yeah.


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Also do we have anything to compare kabutos speed and reactions to Sasuke?



Hmm idk. maybe base Sasuke blitzing Naruto. Kabuto wasn't able to do that against a weaker Naruto.


Then Sasuke has Sharingan and CS to boot.


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## Ersa (Nov 22, 2014)

Databook stats can also be considered.


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## Bonly (Nov 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> People base the outcome of this fight in Tsunade being a Sannin and Sasuke being a genin.
> 
> Tsunade is far from her prime here and a weaker version of Sasuke was already said to be Chuunin level.
> 
> So yeah.



People don't base it simply on title+rank though. It took Kabuto who's on the level on Kakashi(which is a level Sasuke isn't on) to first tire out Tsunade then take solider pills just to match her and he still was gonna use blood to get the upper hand on her. Sasuke has no knowledge on her period and one hit from her is all it takes to put her down and nothing he has even has a chance to hurt her as she can simply dodge his jutsu or tank them. Only thing Sasuke has going for him is Chidori which in itself isn't likely to hit when she can throw him off his balance with a kick or a finger and to add to it he only has three shots with it at that most. It's not simple Sannin vs Genin which people are going with it's the fact that Sasuke barely has anything to do notable damage, portrayal, ect. you get the point, which people base the fight on.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 22, 2014)

Bonly said:


> People don't base it simply on title+rank though. It took Kabuto who's on the level on Kakashi(which is a level Sasuke isn't on) to first tire out Tsunade then take solider pills just to match her and he still was gonna use blood to get the upper hand on her. Sasuke has no knowledge on her period and one hit from her is all it takes to put her down and nothing he has even has a chance to hurt her as she can simply dodge his jutsu or tank them. Only thing Sasuke has going for him is Chidori which in itself isn't likely to hit when she can throw him off his balance with a kick or a finger and to add to it he only has three shots with it at that most. It's not simple Sannin vs Genin which people are going with it's the fact that Sasuke barely has anything to do notable damage, portrayal, ect. you get the point, which people base the fight on.



I wonder if it's that people don't think much of Kabuto, so they don't think much of the Tsunade that fought him.


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## Zynn (Nov 22, 2014)

I think it has more to do with how the full extent of Tsunade's fighting capabilities was never shown in the manga. She either fought an opponent that was held in low regard in fandom's eyes, or someone so monstrously strong like Madara who curb-stomped her (along with four others) pretty easily.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 22, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I find it hilarious people are saying Sasuke won't go at Tsunade with Sharingan activated due to him having no knowledge, but Tsunade somehow decides to go all out from the start. Last time Tsunade fought a kid (who was also a Genin) she didn't take him seriously at all. Granted it was not a fight to death but still.



She was drunk, and its not like Naruto emanated strength from his childish behaviour either. I'm not saying she'll initially attack relentlessly against Sasuke - he is still a child after all, but Tsunade doesn't need to be attacking Sasuke 'all out' to end his life with a single hit. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Genma to CE Sasuke: "You're already at the Chuunin level"



This doesn't make his case any better, as Chuunin levels would still be stomped into the depths of hell against a combatant of Tsunade's level. 



> This version of Sasuke was way faster and more skilled in Taijutsu than Naruto who was able to fight back against Kabuto even though he was getting his ass handed to him. Last time Naruto went against Lee's Taijutsu he got schooled hard. Naruto's stats might've improved a bit during the CE but there is no reason to assume he would fare any better in a Taijutsu rematch.



You're exaggerating in the difference in taijutsu skill between the two. Sasuke is certainly better than Naruto, but its not like schooling Gaara in a close combat battle is any praise-worthy feat, since Gaara is terrible at it. Let's not forget that Naruto trumped Gaara in taijutsu too, after all. [1] And no, even if Sasuke's taijutsu style was similar to Lee's, it was nowhere near on the same level. Even by the second databook, Sasuke's taijutsu still sits at 2.5, while Lee's had already gone up to a 4. 



> After the Sannin fight there was the rooftop fight between Naruto and Sasuke in which they were quite equal. Sasuke was still superior in Taijutsu and Naruto had to resort to Tajyuu Kage Bunshin. Note that Sasuke didn't use CS here. So yeah Naruto's speed and Taijutsu skill are more than just a step below Sasuke's during the Sannin arc.



The Curse seal is a physical buff, so it isn't factored into the databook statistic, which go off the character's base stats. 



> Any sane person can see that Sasuke at full power would've fared against Kabuto a lot better than Naruto did, and that VotE Sasuke would stomp CE Sasuke.
> 
> And Naruto at full power would fare better than base Naruto did against Kabuto did, but no one is debating Curse mark Sasuke's chances against Kabuto, because the Kabuto that Naruto/Tsunade fought would incapacitate Sasuke in CQC long before he ever got the chance to use it.
> 
> ...



This entire rant is talking about CS Sasuke, who isn't really relevant to the discussion. For a start, the curse seal just makes you faster, physically stronger and more durable, it has no effect at all whatsoever on raw taijutsu skill. So CS Sasuke vs KN1 Naruto was no different to Base Sasuke vs Base Naruto in a taijutsu match, except that they were faster and Sasuke had the sharingan. 

The point is, though, that Sasuke has no knowledge on Tsunade, and therefore he has no reason to fully activate his sharingan, the curse seal, and then speed into close range launching his strongest attacks. His arrogance will probably get the better of him as he under-estimates his opponent, who then stomps his head into the floor.​​


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cute. Kabuto had no trouble going against two of the legendary Sannin but pissed his pants when Sasuke flexed his chakra at him.



Rocky said:


> Hell, Grown Sasuke couldn't even fucking budge Killer B with a direct kick to the neck. Tsunade was at least as strong as he was with her swinging around building sized swords and what not. Sasuke beats himself attempting to hurt Tsunade.



You can't compare Bee (high tier part 2 character]) to Tsunade (part 1 gimped high tier character) like at all.

Bee is way more sturdy and durable compared to Tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 22, 2014)

I think Bee would die from Mabui's teleport.


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## Rocky (Nov 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> You can't compare Bee (high tier part 2 character]) to Tsunade (part 1 gimped high tier character) like at all.
> 
> Bee is way more sturdy and durable compared to Tsunade.



"Sturdiness" is a matter a physical strength, and B doesn't suppass her. In Part 1 she was still jumping over boss summons carrying building sized weapons.

Durability is irrelevant to the discussion. If B was durable but weak, Sasuke would still be able to send him flying.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Hm?
> 
> Naruto
> Spe: 3
> ...



Spe: I hope you realize that Hidan has the same 3.5, and yet was right there  running with 4.5 Part 2 Kakashi. That doesn't mean Hidan's performance rubs off on Part 1 Sasuke because they share the same speed statistic, that just means the other factors that contribute to the showings we see on-panel, such as driving Chakra to the feet and exploding off of it, are that significant. Such is the case with Sasuke and Kabuto here considering that medics rely so heavily upon using their Chakra to get around and Kabuto is an especially gifted one. Again I stress, Part 1 Sasuke would be much closer to Part 1 Naruto than Kabuto.

Str: I don't really see how strength is relevant because Kabuto didn't perform well due to his strength, only due to his Scalpels.

Tai: That shows Kabuto being a full tier ahead of Sasuke in Taijutsu whereas Sasuke is only half a tier away from Naruto, so even here Sasuke is more comparable to Naruto than he is to Kabuto.



> Replenished his chakra which enabled him to fight a lot better?



He flipping turned red, bulked up, and popped the clone. That's an example of a painfully obvious increase in general physical ability, not just a replenishment of stamina. We've seen Akamaru before and he never looked like that besides a point at which he had been ingesting the pill. _Ever._



> I don't see how stamina was not an issue.



Not everybody had that hard of a time in the Forest of Death, though. Kiba wasn't exactly sucking air before taking the pills.



> Pretty sure anyone with any measure of chakra control has this so called chakra charging boost.



Yes and its effectiveness varies with the practitioner. That _matters_. Sasuke's Chakra control wasn't as good as Sakura's and he was no more familiar with the practice than she was. Kabuto on the other hand is easily superior in both respects, and with the Hyōrōgan in effect even more significantly so.

Sasuke simply can't compare.



> I could see Kabuto avoiding this chop with Sharingan.



And once again you'd be very wrong. He blinked, and when he opened his eyes again she was already out of his line of sight, which is why he was shocked when he opened them, i.e.- the Sharingan couldn't have seen anything because she didn't move until his eyes were shut, and thus having it couldn't have changed anything.

The Sharingan is extremely advanced physicality reading, not outright future sight. Therein lies its limit. It can't see the move _before it is even attempted_ because prior to the move being attempted there are simply no muscle tensions for the eye to read into to begin with. Tsunade didn't make a move until he blinked, therefore the Sharingan would have been largely irrelevant.

There's also the detail that Tsunade was already out-of-breath (and unable to breathe due to the intercostal muscles injury) in that instance, which won't apply here. She can only do even better.



> Sasuke was near blind and had just come out of a deathmatch so I'm not sure he was in the condition needed to outmaneuver a fresh Kakashi at that stage.



I don't know where you're trying to go with this. I don't even know what you're talking about. It doesn't seem like this has anything to do with what I just said, though.



> I don't really see how improving his reflexes and giving him more time to react doesn't help Kabuto strengthen his admitted weakness in taijutsu.



Then you didn't read what I said. The Sharingan does what it does and doesn't do what it doesn't do. Improving his reflexes _isn't pertinent_ in an event where reflexes *aren't the issue*. The issue is necessary close-proximity and the fact that you physically can't attack while also backing off out of harm's way, especially against an opponent like Tsunade that can keep moving right along even while taking a hit to most effectively capitalize on the enemy's positional disadvantage. Kabuto was able to get around that fact for no reason other than because tackling into his Scalpels would sap her strength and allow him to survive the subsequent impact, and that's an ability Sasuke does not have.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 23, 2014)

> Look what Sharingan did to Obito for example, it's worlds apart. And that was 2 tomoe, not 3 tomoe.



What are you referring to?



> And the DB doesn't consider the Juin or the Sharingan.



_I didn't say it did_. But that's not how you were playing the card.

You're speaking as though we can take Kabuto's performance and simply add the Sharingan and Curse Mark on top of that to get an idea of how Sasuke would do. That is brilliantly false because that would require base Sasuke to be more or less identical to roided up Kabuto in order to work as an example. He isn't, therefore, you can't say what you're trying to.



> Certainly beyond Sasuke but far and beyond is not something I'd agree with once we factor in Sasuke's boosts.



I just said that the mistake you're making is trying to use Kabuto's performance as a starting point for base Sasuke upon which you can then add both the Sharingan and Curse Mark for an estimate.

There is no "once we factor in Sasuke's boosts" in this instance, unless you're saying we can take boosted Sasuke and then add his boosts onto it to estimate how he fares against Tsunade, a Tsunade that isn't even out-of-breath, which is pretty weird.



> I disagree and I think there's multiple instances where Kabuto could've avoided getting hit if he had the benefits of improved reflexes and pre-cognition as pointed out above.



And I've explained why we saw no such instances.



> If he knew what Naruto was capable of you'd think he wouldn't double KO him against base Naruto.



He didn't know about the Rasengan because Naruto literally just got it and he wasn't expecting him to let himself get stabbed in order to land it, but that technique has no bearing on the rest of Naruto's abilities and Naruto wasn't using the Rasengan at any time while he was letting loose on Sasuke, he only used it when Sasuke used Chidori. He didn't double K.O. against him either. Naruto would have died as it were while Kabuto would have been both alive and conscious. Even Kurama was about to die, so that wasn't helping him, it was only because of Tsunade's interference that Naruto lived.

Even with Tsunade already being rusty Kabuto initially fled until she was exhausted before amplifying himself with ninja steroids behind Scalpels that can negate her physical strength. These are not the actions of an arrogant individual, so I'm inclined to say that mere "arrogance" didn't cost Kabuto anything in his skirmish with Tsunade. Falling for a feint after an attack that would have shut down just about anyone else does not showcase arrogance.

Also, "I am the _closest to_ the Sage of Six Paths" =/= "I am nearly Sage of Six Paths level".



> Eh, the huge amounts of chakra were present with Haku and at VOTE as well.



No they weren't. They were present upon the initial release but they did not go on to envelop Naruto's body and remain present throughout the remainder of the transformation as they did during the fight with Neji.



> I'd still bank on it being weaker considering his own chakra points was sealed whethas KN0 Naruto is his own chakra being empowered by Kurama.



Except that resorting to Kurama's Chakra forcibly _reopened_ Naruto's Tenketsu. If the Tenketsu were closed no matter how much  Chakra Kurama let Naruto draw from there would be no aura, because there would be no point for it to emit from. It would just stay inside his body the entire time.

Also, it at least suggests a more sizable amount of Chakra being used during any single point in time than otherwise. There is no reason to assume that this transformation was inferior simply because it didn't have pronounced whiskers and fox eyes.



> Not to mention everyone noticed Naruto was making rapid improvements in his stats as shown in both Sasuke's jealousy, Kakashi's words and his fairly rapid increase in DB stats.



Gamabunta being used against Shukaku and Itachi's sentiments were what made Sasuke jealous, not Naruto's physicality, and we're taking about…physical abilities…so yeah...



> If he chooses not to use them then I'd tend to agree with you.
> 
> But I think Sharingan will come out before he dies and then Juin once he realizes Tsunade is a beast.



Considering that this is a BD versus match as opposed to a random encounter on Konoha's streets in the manga, I seriously doubt it.



> Didn't he grab Haku as the latter tried to slip into another mirror which would still be classified as his mirror speed?
> 
> My point was KN0 was enough to push Naruto from a nigh fodder to heavily pressuring someone who nigh blitzed him previously.



No, it's only his "mirror speed" when he's _projecting himself from the mirrors_. If he's not launching himself like that he's not going particularly fast- he doesn't enter those mirrors at super speed, he exits them at that speed.

Haku was only blitzing with the mirrors, before that he got himself kicked in the face by Sasuke.



> Sasuke is a cocky little shit but I'd bank on Sharingan coming out considering he's used it in almost every major fight in Part I.



_*1.)*_ Sasuke doesn't even know this is a major fight considering he has no intel.

_*2.)*_ Those hits were natural. If they weren't, severing Tsunade's biceps brachii and rectus femoris wouldn't have stopped her from killing Kabuto, because those muscles being severed never prevented her from channelling her Chakra into her limbs, which is why she went about performing other medical Ninjutsu techniques.

_*3.)*_ The Chakra build up is instantaneous anyway, occurring in the moment directly before impact, so there wouldn't be a warning until she's already about to hit something, meaning that even seeing it would grant Sasuke no more time. as such.

_*4.)*_ Sasuke has no intel and thus does not even know what the Chakra building up entails, and as such still has zero incentive to try and get so far out of the way.

He dies horribly.



> One that she'll win reasonably comfortably either by using Sozo Saisei to outsustain Sasuke's Juin or using Katsuyu.



She doesn't need either of those things.



> I really don't get this Genin get stomped by everyone circlejerk. They can do this level of destruction.



Nothing was actually destroyed, though.

It took every single one of the Sound 4 resorting to their Stage 2 Curse Marks to just barely defeat two already exhausted _special Jōnin_. In the hospital said special Jōnin stated that the _only_ reason they didn't win anyway was because they had almost no Chakra left when the fight started.

Therefore we can see that:

Sound 4 individually <<< Sound 4 collectively <<< just 2 fresh special Jōnin < fully realized Jōnin < elite Jōnin like Kabuto < roided up Kabuto <~ out-of-breath, out-of-shape, out-of-practice Tsunade < out-of-shape, out-of-practice Tsunade that isn't also out-of-breath.

Obvious precedent is obvious.

Genin get rolled over by Jōnin, by elite Jōnin even more so, and Tsunade even worse than that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 23, 2014)

Wounded post Tsunade and Shizune gauntlet nervous system wrecked no intent to fight or kill Kabuto who came down off his pep pills was toying with Naruto.  That Naruto then came back to have an even rooftop fight with Sasuke, and stayed even with him.  That means Sasuke is more comparable to Naruto than Kabuto.


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## Amol (Nov 24, 2014)

Sasuke fans are amusing.
Tsunade literally stomps him.
She blitzes him and turns him into a paste . Few seconds are all this match will go.


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## Veracity (Nov 24, 2014)

Lol @ this spite thread .


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> I actually agree with you, hence why I said he dies a horrific death.
> Ranks are irrelevant here, but either way the gap is insurmountable as far as combat goes.
> 
> The blood phobia thing pretty is an even bigger restriction than a finger though. She can't even move, let alone fight in any way because of it. I'm sure even he could come out top with her in that state.



Again, Sasuke would have to know about it and would have to utilize it. I don't see that happening before he's turned into paste.


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