# Tsunade vs Deidara



## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Location: Sannin Battlefield
Starting Distance: 20 Metres
Stipulations: Tsunade is as she was when the Gokage fought Madara. Prime Tsunade.
Knowledge: Manga
Conditions: Kill to Win
State of Mind: In-Character, but Bloodlusted (if that makes sense, not holding anything back)
Restrictions: C0 (Deidara will not have suicidal thoughts in this battle, he wants to win and live to tell about it)


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

She can't defeat him in this location, Deidara's just going to bombard her with explosives which counter her well. Deidara's a bad match up for Tsunade imo, he's not stronger than her overall but his fighting style is going to counter her hard.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

Between Byakugo and Katsuyu Tsunade can pretty much deal with C1+C2 for the most part. C4 destroy the body on a cellular level while Byakugo regens on a cellular level so Tsunade should be able to heal from it as long as she has enough chakra and C0 is restricted so that pretty much leaves him with C3. Tsunade reaching him might be a pain but between a ground pound with a likely big range to catch him as well as using Katsuyu for extra height to jump and reach him(she jumped pretty damn high to catch Manda) along with Katsuyu being able to spit acid and causing a distraction she has a decent shot at eventually reaching him and if Deidara chose to fly way high into the sky then all that does is give Tsunade more time to avoid his bombs or she might have a range Raiton to help deal with them. 

Most people are just gonna say that Deidara is a terrible match up for just because he can fly and will say he nukes her to hell but those people ignore the fact that Tsunade being able to heal/dodge his attacks along with the fact that Deidara doesn't have an infinite amount of clay which means he can run out as well as the fact that Tsunade has Raiton also makes her a bad match up for Deidara. Deidara's only shot at winning is C3 imo and we've seen how cocky Deidara is and how he doesn't bring out the big guns until after he's been fighting for the most part or unless he was trapped(as an Edo going for C0 which is distracted) and with that type of mindset Tsunade has a good shot at reaching him and taking him out. I'd say this could go either way though I'd give the nod to Tsunade more often then not

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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Between Byakugo and Katsuyu Tsunade can pretty much deal with C1+C2 for the most part. C4 destroy the body on a cellular level while Byakugo regens on a cellular level so Tsunade should be able to heal from it as long as she has enough chakra and C0 is restricted so that pretty much leaves him with C3.


Exactly.



> Most people are just gonna say that Deidara is a terrible match up for just because he can fly and will say he nukes her to hell but those people ignore the fact that Tsunade being able to heal/dodge his attacks along with the fact that Deidara doesn't have an infinite amount of clay which means he can run out as well as the fact that Tsunade has Raiton also makes her a bad match up for Deidara.


Thank you for saying this.

So we have:
C1 - she tanks, dodges or uses Katsuyu as meatshield and maybe even uses Ranshinshō to deactivate bombs
C2 - she uses her Chakra Enhanced Strength to make a huge jump to get up to Deidara and attack him with Ōkasho and Ranshinshō
C3 - Katsuyu meatshield. Deidara was arrogant enough not to use it against Sasuke so he might even die before he gets a chance to pull it off.
C4 - countered by Byakugo no Jutsu

And who said Deidara was even making it airborne?


*Spoiler*: __ 





*Spoiler*: _Hashirama only knew Tsunade as a child, as he died during the First Shinobi World war, and Hiruzen at the end of that war became Hokage and started training Sannin when they were 6_ 



*GRADUATED FROM ACADEMY AT 6 HIRUZEN WAS HOKAGE BY THEN; SO TOBIRAMA AND HASHIRAMA WERE DEAD BY THE TIME TSUNADE WAS AGED 6*



*Spoiler*: _And we know that Tsunade has inherent natural raw strength without using Chakra Enhanced Strength_ 





			
				DB3 (Revised DB4) said:
			
		

> It should be noted that unlike Sakura, Tsunade herself already possesses incredible raw strength, capable of crushing stones in a single hand with nothing but pure muscle power. This strength is later increased to monstrous levels, when Tsunade uses this technique, allowing her to perform feats like lifting and swinging's , creating giant  and fissures in an area by simply striking it with either her heel or finger, destroying  's ribcage and its ,and sending opponents flying with a flick of her finger with relative ease.






*Spoiler*: _And in Byakugo Mode, she would be theoretically 100 times stronger_ 





> Tsunade has excellent control over her , a necessary prerequisite to her job as a . After the Second Shinobi World War, she started gradually storing her chakra into the  on her forehead. When the seal is , Tsunade has access to all the accumulated chakra, totaling a so-named hundred-times her usual chakra levels. Although she normally uses this extra chakra to heal injuries or perform her other jutsu, she can also transfer the chakra to others, either to replenish or amplify their own.





You ask why Tsunade never showed such strength? She's had two fights in the manga. Sannin and Madara. She was Rusty in Part 1 (not having fought for 20 years can limit your strength a lot, ask Prime Hanzo if you don't believe me) and we don't even know if she used Chakra Enhanced Strength when she performed Tsutenkyaku, but even then, while Rusty, she could easily lift and skilfully wield Gamabunta's Sword. And in the War Arc, she was hitting Susano'o, not the ground. That's why she didn't use terrain manipulation. And if she did, she could have killed her fellow teammates just by doing so, as dozens of Juubi Clones were sent flying by Byakugo Sakura's Ōkasho, which is on the same level as Base 5 Year Old Tsunade'S strength.

So by logic Byakugo Sakura = 5 Year Old Tsunade who is much, much, much weaker 55 Year Old Base Tsunade who is fodder to 55 Year Old Base Tsunade + Chakra Enhanced Strength who is logically at best only has access to 1% of the strength that Byakugo Tsunade [55 Year Old Tsunade + Chakra Enhanced Strength x 100 (via Byakugo no Jutsu)] can obtain in battle.




Could she not use Terrain Manipulation to throw him off balance before he even tries to get airborne? The distance is only 20 Metres and Byakugo Sakura destroyed 50 Metres of land with her Ōkasho. And Tsunade theoretically was capable of a similar feat as a 5 year old.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

And couldn't she just swat him out of the sky like a fly using Katsuyu? Just how fast is Deidara's Clay Bird anyway?
If she made Jinton from this

Into this

While on low reserves, what could a fully powered Byakugo tsunade do to this

It would be bigger than this


And people act as if Tsunade aint fast when
*Spoiler*: __ 





*I WILL LET YOU SEE THAT ONE AGAIN
*









At the end of the day, as @Itachi said, Tsunade is stronger than him overall, and no, she isn't mismatched. If anything, her regeneration + her strength, speed and mobility makes her a bad match up for Deidara. Deidara claimed inferiority to Sasori, and all of the Sannin were superior to him, so Deidara hasn't even got a shadow of a chance here. Unless Tsunade (who more or less equalled 5 x Edo Madara Rinnegan/EMS possessing, Mokuton wielding, V3 Legged Susano'o using Clones) is for some reason inferior to Hebi Sasuke (who couldn't even legitimately beat Sick Itachi when he was holding back), who stalemated Deidara and cornered him into using C0.

ANYWAY, I WAS GONNA MAKE THIS A THREAD, BUT NO POINT, SINCE IT REVOLVES AROUND TOPICS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED IN THIS THREAD ANYWAY
*QUESTION: CAN KATSUYU TANK C0?*


> Furthermore, due to its genetic and physical make up, Katsuyu is extremely resistant to damage, as seen during . Katsuyu is also able to absorb people into its body, thus protecting them from physical impacts like the large-scale using its own high durability. A palm-sized version of Katsuyu even survived the corrosive chakra of Naruto's  and Nagato's. Katsuyu's clones were fast enough to throw themselves in front of ,  and  before the Animal Path's  summon even managed to hit them. Due to its ability to divide, a summoner is able to separately summon her divisions so portions of Katsuyu can be in more than one place at any given time.



*Spoiler*: __ 













Discuss that on the side. Tsunade summons Katsuyu (Bijuu-sized portion akin to Sannin fight; in Byakugo Mode, she could arguably summon a greater proportion of Katsuyu) and sinks her body into her. Will Tsunade be shielded from the blast of C0 enough to survive while she also has Byakugo no Jutsu activated for regeneration?

And I'd like to bring attention to the last of those scans I posted. As many already remember, Tsunade (who emerged with no mini-Katsuyu having absorbed her) tanked Chou Shinra Tensei, and she did so, while on low reserves (she healed all of Konoha) and made it to the battlefield before in-shape, unscathed top members of the ANBU, who specialise in stealth.So yeah, people can stop underrating her speed and durability. Most of Deidara's bombs aren't gonna be reaching her, and she will tank the ones that do, with or without Byakugo. People say she gets bombarded and nuked, but Sasuke shielded himself completely from Deidara's bombs using a fodder snake as a meat-shield. Katsuyu is an even better tank than Manda, the strongest and biggest snake in the world, but of course, Tsunade gets raped as she does in every fight lol. She's too underrated in general and her feats are constantly downplayed by some few people.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2016)

Tsunade said after seeing FRS effects, she can't heal cellular level damage so she loses to C4 not to mention she can't regenerate her head or her limbs .

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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Tsunade said after seeing FRS effects, *she can't heal cellular level damage* so she loses to C4 not to mention she can't regenerate her head or her limbs .



No she didn't. Tsunade said "*If the chakra tubes are disconnected* from the cells, even my medical ninjutsu can't heal it" so she can still heal at the cellular level since her jutsu is the rapid division of her cells which means she's healing at the cellular level.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2016)

And C4 can disconnect her chakra tubes from her cells . And well , even without this , she can't heal head cells damages .


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> And C4 can disconnect her chakra tubes from her cells . And well , even without this , she can't heal head cells damages .



Where is that stated for either of the two?

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## Jay2016 (Jul 4, 2016)

Since when could she use raiton?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> Since when could she use raiton?



Since back in part one when she turned her chakra into lighting as well as when DB4 said she could use Raitons along with every element bar Futon

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## Jay2016 (Jul 4, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Since back in part one when she turned her chakra into lighting as well as when DB4 said she could use Raitons along with every element bar Futon


Doesn't state that inn the db


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> Doesn't state that inn the db



Then you haven't read DB4 yet because it does.


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## Jay2016 (Jul 4, 2016)

It just Meer speculation that her using raiton will have any effect vvs him. She's nnot a high level user of it so I doubt she could do much with it. I've never seen her use any element so I doubt she has any good moves wiith it.


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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> It just Meer speculation that her using raiton will have any effect vvs him.



No it's a fact. We saw someone like Omoi who outright said that he knows a little Raiton and he managed to stop Deidara's from using C0, his strongest attack.



> She's nnot a high level user of it so I doubt she could do much with it.



She doesn't need to be a high lvl user just like Omoi wasn't.



> I've never seen her use any element so I doubt she has any good moves wiith it.



If you read the manga then you would've seen her use it on Kabuto but hey if ignore what you want.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2016)

stopping C4 means transfering Raiton to all chakra cells , Tsunade never showed such expertise in Raiton mastery , not to mention she has no clue Deidara is using Doton techniques nor she can see the C4 smoke and deduce it's cells level bombs .

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2016)

Byakugou counters C4 provided she has enough chakra left, she doesn't need a Raiton to deactivate it.

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## Ryuzaki (Jul 4, 2016)

She can't win against his explosions, C2/C3/C4 are all indefensible from her position. By the time she realizes she needs katsuyu, it'll be too late.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jad (Jul 4, 2016)

Gai has raiton element, guess he can diffuse Deidara's clays.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Matty (Jul 4, 2016)

C4 isn't gradual, shit happens almost instantaneously. It should eat her up right away and byakugou would need to be incredibly fast to just keep her alive, let alone actually give her the ability to fight while combating the bombs

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Jad (Jul 4, 2016)

Matty said:


> C4 isn't gradual, shit happens almost instantaneously. It should eat her up right away and byakugou would need to be incredibly fast to just keep her alive, let alone actually give her the ability to fight while combating the bombs



She took too long to heal a 1 cm wound in her torso. No way us her healing catching up to C4 cellular breakdown. Cells going through mitosis will be destroyed before it even splits in two cells...

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## Matty (Jul 4, 2016)

Jad said:


> She took too long to heal a 1 cm wound in her torso. No way us her healing catching up to C4 cellular breakdown. Cells going through mitosis will be destroyed before it even splits in two cells...



100% agree

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2016)

She took about 2 seconds to heal two giant holes in her torso. I don't know what manga you girls are reading 

C4 did not even remotely disintegrate Sasuke instantaneously, it was gradual.


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## LostSelf (Jul 4, 2016)

Deidara wins this.

Tsunade will be suffering heavy damage (not lethal, though) with C2 alone. And will be finished when C4 comes into play. When Tsunade was stabbed by Madara and she pulled the blade out, she screamed, the Kages and Madara noticed, she started swinging the blade and attack Madara, Madara pushed her back, she crashed and stood up and there was when Byakugo finished closing the wound. Granted, these guys are ninjas and they do so extremely fast, it's not like Byakugo took a lot of time.

However, C4 finished a much more bigger target than her wound and Sasuke could barely figure out what the hell was happening to him and only could finish a scream.

That's more than twice the speed of Byakugo. Either way, Byakugo won't let Tsunade disappear completely, but it won't shrugg off the damage, Tsunade won't keep fighting while Byakugo heals like just a stab wound. The damage C4 isgoing to make will be much more lethal than the two stabs the Susano'os made her and she collapsed from it.

She'll waste a ton of chakra regenerating, and when Deidara sees that. He's just going to finish her off with another C2 or anything else. As she will be helpless on the floor for some time. If not a lot.

Katsuyu also might not be able to help in time because if the slug is there, the slug will be disintegrating as well.

At best, Tsunade somehow (doubtful) outlasts Deidara's clay and he leaves. Since he wants to live and won't suicide. But bad matchup is bad matchup.

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## LostSelf (Jul 4, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She took about 2 seconds to heal two giant holes in her torso. I don't know what manga you girls are reading



How do you know that, when it happened off-panel?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 4, 2016)

C4 Disintegrate her cells, and she won't even know what hit her. I can't imagine her multiplying it faster than it is destroyed.

Unless she can regenerate her entire body in less than a few seconds, she's going to die.

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## Ryuzaki (Jul 4, 2016)

No way she regenerates faster than C4 works and on top of that, it also depends on how much is absorbed by her respiration ad how much damage she has taken prior to Deidara even using C4. The greater the damage she already has the harder its going to be for her to heal. 

Sasuke had the sharingan to guide him from dodging and breathing in the bombs.

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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know that, when it happened off-panel?



There's barely any blood coming out of her sides after she ripped the swords out, suggesting the wounds had almost fully closed over: 

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

The only blood visible is that which was on the swords, her clothes are clean and so is the ground around her:

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

If that weren't enough evidence, the hole in her gut from Madara's first sword attack disappeared within seconds (if even, she moves at superhuman speeds, and so does Madara, so their actions in the below link could have taken place across mere milliseconds):

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

Heck, using just her regular Shosen no Jutsu she can make the hole in Naruto's hand disappear instantly:

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

Sasuke still has time to talk and move before he's even lost a finger:

outright said that he knows a little Raiton

She'll be fine.


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## LostSelf (Jul 4, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> There's barely any blood coming out of her sides after she ripped the swords out, suggesting the wounds had almost fully closed over:
> 
> outright said that he knows a little Raiton
> 
> ...



Kishimoto didn't show blood when she was with both swords impaled, that doesn't mean she wasn't injured.  He doesn't just draws a sea of blood. Example: Orochimaru being stabbed by Totsuka. Also, there's a good quantity of blood pouring into the blades.

Her clothes being clean shouldn't also say much, considering she was stabbed in her belt, wich is black and we can't see. And Kishimoto "erases" blood parts of the clothes either way. Another example is how the blood in her stomach is now gone in the first panel you provided. When she had blood in her clothes in the panel where she heals the first stab.

(I try to add links but this forum is so slow since it's update that it keeps loading eternally)
Not having blood there doesn't mean she wasn't damaged. Otherwise she wouldn't have collapsed.

I also wouldn't say Tsunade pulled the blade and attacked Madara Uchiha, he blocks, creates a Magatama and sends her back in miliseconds. That at least should've taken some two seconds.

I have also no doubt Tsunade can close a wound fast. Naruto's hand wound was nothing compared to the stab wound she had, and nothing compared to C4 either.

And talking mid-fight is also not a measure of speed. Or we'd be saying Karin reacts extremely well against V2 Ei, Sakura, Lee, Kakashi and Gai holds a conversation before Sasuke, running extremely fast, finishes to run in the wall when he charged Chidori against Gaara (wich would make him still slower than a normal kid and contradict the Chidori needing Sharingan because one moves too fast for even a Jounin of Kakashi's caliber), etc.

Obito had time to say something when Minato teleported back with Hiraishin, etc. Sasuke talking has no measure in the speed of the technique. Byakugo can help Tsunade, but it hasn't shown the speed C4 has shown regenerating.

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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jul 4, 2016)

I agree with the posters who've said that C4 gives Deidara the win. Since it disintegrates the body at a cellular level, it makes sense that the connection between the chakra tubes and the cells would be destroyed, and Tsunade said herself that even her medical ninjutsu can't heal that kind of damage.

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## Empathy (Jul 4, 2016)

Bonly said:


> No it's a fact. We saw someone like Omoi who outright said that he knows a little Raiton and he managed to stop Deidara's from using C0, his strongest attack.
> 
> She doesn't need to be a high lvl user just like Omoi wasn't.
> 
> If you read the manga then you would've seen her use it on Kabuto but hey if ignore what you want.



How would she know he's weak to raiton?

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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2016)

Empathy said:


> How would she know he's weak to raiton?



During the war all the nations were slowly sharing information and people on the battle field were reporting back to HQ what was going on and what had happened. People on the battle field knew Raiton could stop his bombs and Tsunade was at the HQ where alot of the info was going until she fought Madara so she could've learned it from there

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## Empathy (Jul 4, 2016)

To clarify, she's going to use ranged raiton techniques she may or may not have based on knowledge that she may or may not have? Speculative.

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## Bonly (Jul 4, 2016)

If you think she's gonna use Raiton then sure, why not


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Kishimoto didn't show blood when she was with both swords impaled, that doesn't mean she wasn't injured.  He doesn't just draws a sea of blood. Example: Orochimaru being stabbed by Totsuka. Also, there's a good quantity of blood pouring into the blades.
> 
> Her clothes being clean shouldn't also say much, considering she was stabbed in her belt, wich is black and we can't see. And Kishimoto "erases" blood parts of the clothes either way. Another example is how the blood in her stomach is now gone in the first panel you provided. When she had blood in her clothes in the panel where she heals the first stab.
> 
> ...



Tsunade was impaled off-panel. She presumably started healing around the blade which is why there's no blood when she punches the Susano'o. When she pulls the blades out there isn't much blood considering she was almost _bisected_, but if you want to pull out the inconsistency card then I can just point you to her other feats, like the first time she was stabbed, or when she was burned by Katon, etc.



> I also wouldn't say Tsunade pulled the blade and attacked Madara Uchiha, he blocks, creates a Magatama and sends her back in miliseconds. That at least should've taken some two seconds.



They're superhumans though. They don't do things as slowly as us.



> I have also no doubt Tsunade can close a wound fast. Naruto's hand wound was nothing compared to the stab wound she had, and nothing compared to C4 either.
> 
> And talking mid-fight is also not a measure of speed. Or we'd be saying Karin reacts extremely well against V2 Ei, Sakura, Lee, Kakashi and Gai holds a conversation before Sasuke, running extremely fast, finishes to run in the wall when he charged Chidori against Gaara (wich would make him still slower than a normal kid and contradict the Chidori needing Sharingan because one moves too fast for even a Jounin of Kakashi's caliber), etc.
> 
> Obito had time to say something when Minato teleported back with Hiraishin, etc. Sasuke talking has no measure in the speed of the technique. Byakugo can help Tsunade, but it hasn't shown the speed C4 has shown regenerating.



You say that you can't judge a technique's speed based on characters having time to talk in between, but if you truly believe that, then what are you actually basing C4's speed off? Its feats certainly aren't indicative that it can break cells down faster than Tsunade heals them, evidenced by the fact that it takes milliseconds, _seconds_ at the most for her to heal a giant hole in her gut. C4 attacks at a similar speed, it cannot be described as visibly faster .


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## LostSelf (Jul 4, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade was impaled off-panel. She presumably started healing around the blade which is why there's no blood when she punches the Susano'o. When she pulls the blades out there isn't much blood considering she was almost _bisected_, but if you want to pull out the inconsistency card then I can just point you to her other feats, like the first time she was stabbed, or when she was burned by Katon, etc.



She was impaled off panel, that's true. She also was healing around the blade, i perfectly agree with that. However, the stabs where not being healed considering the blade was inside.

However, after she pulls out said blades, why do you think she collapses? It was because of tje damage. When she pulled them out, she spit blood and falls for quite some time. Not to say it was a looong time, but not fast either. But that's not to underrate Byakugo, though. The damage was too big.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> They're superhumans though. They don't do things as slowly as us.



But not miliseconds. Unless the dust moves at superhuman speed as well, something that shouldn't be.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> You say that you can't judge a technique's speed based on characters having time to talk in between, but if you truly believe that, then what are you actually basing C4's speed off? Its feats certainly aren't indicative that it can break cells down faster than Tsunade heals them, evidenced by the fact that it takes milliseconds, _seconds_ at the most for her to heal a giant hole in her gut. C4 attacks at a similar speed, it cannot be described as visibly faster .



Based on panel time. We've seen Byakugo healing some type of wounds. And the only time we saw it healing a huge wound, the user collapsed. Said damage was far, but far inferior to the one C4 would make. In this case, we can count panels, i think. Tsunade's byakugo has taken more panel time to heal something than C4. But i agree not even panel time is accurate. 

However, based on showings, C4, by the time Sasuke looked at his hands, he was already gone, wich should've taken a lot less than the stab wound Byakugo healed considering that Sasuke would've been looking what was happening to him desperately. And now let's add the superhuman movement thing and C4 looks terrorific.


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## Jad (Jul 4, 2016)

You judge the healing process on the 'aura' aroubd Tsunade. I proved this like years ago. Tsunade has a steaming aura quality around her body that shows healing/regen. She had that for quite a few panels after she broke the sword from in her gut to when 25 Madara's apeared.


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## LostSelf (Jul 4, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade was impaled off-panel. She presumably started healing around the blade which is why there's no blood when she punches the Susano'o. When she pulls the blades out there isn't much blood considering she was almost _bisected_, but if you want to pull out the inconsistency card then I can just point you to her other feats, like the first time she was stabbed, or when she was burned by Katon, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Something more i forgot to add:

C4 disintegrated Sasuke before the Uchiha could catch Deidara flying at high speeds with Chidori andbased on the distance of:

outright said that he knows a little Raiton
outright said that he knows a little Raiton

Sasuke didn't get any close to the free-falling Deidara before dissappearing most of his body. That's extremely fast.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 5, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Tsunade said after seeing FRS effects, she can't heal cellular level damage so she loses to C4 not to mention she can't regenerate her head or her limbs .


She said she wouldn't be able to heal Naruto's arm. This is not Shosen on Naruto. This is Byakugo on herself, and the manga/db description says it is a cell regeneration technique, but of course, everyone on this forum hates Tsunade and downplays her. Anyway, Deidara potentially dies before C4 is even used so it doesn't matter.

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## Ryuzaki (Jul 5, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> She said she wouldn't be able to heal Naruto's arm. This is not Shosen on Naruto. This is Byakugo on herself, and the manga/db description says it is a cell regeneration technique, but of course, everyone on this forum hates Tsunade and downplays her. Anyway, Deidara potentially dies before C4 is even used so it doesn't matter.


Guided C2 and C3 beg differ, fight is a huge advantage for Deidara which Tsunade cannot routinely compensate for by "jumping" higher. Deidara can stay out of her range indefinitely and just bomb her into an oblivion.

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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2016)

I do not think Deidara is above Tsunade, imo (not far below either, though).

Tsunade's effectiveness in crowded fights and support abilities are way better. However, Deidara is a terrible matchup for her.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Something more i forgot to add:
> 
> C4 disintegrated Sasuke before the Uchiha could catch Deidara flying at high speeds with Chidori andbased on the distance of:
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both of those times actual happen in a genjutsu?


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 5, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Guided C2 and C3 beg differ, fight is a huge advantage for Deidara which Tsunade cannot routinely compensate for by "jumping" higher. Deidara can stay out of her range indefinitely and just bomb her into an oblivion.


Because she cant jump to C2 and doesnt have Katsuyu to defend against C3. Because she is inferior to Hebi Sasuke despite her feats against Madara. She loses to Deidara even though she is equal to Orochimaru whom was superior to Sasori. She can beat Sasori but loses to Deidara. She tanked Chou Shinra Tensei but goes down to C2. Yeah, its safe to say Tsunade is a hated character. No hard feelings though. Done trying to defend Tsunade on this forum. If we cant abide by manga theres no point in me trying to debate in Tsunade threads anymore.


Bonly said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both of those times actual happen in a genjutsu?


Of course they did, but lets ignore that and use those illusionary instances to bring Tsunade down right @Ryuzaki? Tsunade that has Byakugo must go down to C4. She myst go down to decapitation (in other threads). She must not regenerate her spine. Its like Byakugo doesnt do anything the way people on this forum talk.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both of those times actual happen in a genjutsu?



If the genjutsu was very fake, to the point of Deidara knowing it did it too fast or slow, he would've noticed. 

Deidara not noticing it means it was under the probabilities of the technique. And it's what Kishimoto has ilustrated  to show us the technique.

Don't go that cheap way, Bonly .

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> If the genjutsu was very fake, to the point of Deidara knowing it did it too fast or slow, he would've noticed.
> 
> Deidara not noticing it means it was under the probabilities of the technique. And it's what Kishimoto has ilustrated  to show us the technique.
> 
> Don't go that cheap way, Bonly .



But Deidara did notice it was fake though, hence why he clone feinted Sasuke and put Sasuke inside a C4 clone while the second time he didn't even see Sasuke since he was falling, all he saw was some snakes so he didn't even see the process.


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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2016)

Bonly said:


> But Deidara did notice it was fake though, hence why he clone feinted Sasuke and put Sasuke inside a C4 clone while the second time he didn't even see Sasuke since he was falling, all he saw was some snakes so he didn't even see the process.



He saw Sasuke was fake, not that C4 was too fast.

The second time he didn't see Sasuke, it didn't take too long either. Sasuke was approaching him extremely fast with Chidori. Remember Chidori needs Sharingan to be used effectively because of the speed one takes. And Deidara, who was falling, not even using his normal speed, told him he was not going to make it in time.

Being destroyed when he entered the trees or not is still pretty fast (and irrelevant as well because Deidara was almost touching the trees when he activated it), Deidara still didn't find the C4's destruction speed to be slower or faster than it normally is. And his words out reflects what we saw in genjutsu. It killed Sasuke before he could close that already small distance.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> He saw Sasuke was fake, not that C4 was too fast.
> 
> The second time he didn't see Sasuke, it didn't take too long either. Sasuke was approaching him extremely fast with Chidori. Remember Chidori needs Sharingan to be used effectively because of the speed one takes. And Deidara, who was falling, not even using his normal speed, told him he was not going to make it in time.
> 
> Being destroyed when he entered the trees or not is still pretty fast (and irrelevant as well because Deidara was almost touching the trees when he activated it), Deidara still didn't find the C4's destruction speed to be slower or faster than it normally is. And his words out reflects what we saw in genjutsu. It killed Sasuke before he could close that already small distance.



If he knew that the Sasuke was fake then why would he bother commenting on whether the speed of C4 is too slow or too fast?

Sasuke and Deidara fell in two different places and he didn't see Sasuke, all he saw was some snakes which logically a snake would die off faster then the human due to the size.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 5, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *Because she cant jump to C2*


No she can't because she's too slow, Sasuke managed to do it because of his agility, CS2 wings. If she starts out by standing on Katsuyu, Deidara would just increase the distance from the ground. He was flying exceptionally high (clearly out of Tsunade's jumping range) when he took down the tortoise island. More to the point, Deidara does not only have a flight advantage but he also retains a speed advantage.



IzayaOrihara said:


> and doesnt have Katsuyu to defend against C3.


Assuming she summons Katsuyu, to start the match? Match conditions specifically state IC.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Because she is inferior to Hebi Sasuke despite her feats against Madara.


She cannot win against Hebi Sasuke and her feats against Madara were a combination of a 4 other kage providing her assistance in order to make the hit. If she went 1 vs. 1 against Madara, she would have been gutted in the first page of the chapter. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> She loses to Deidara even though she is equal to Orochimaru whom was superior to Sasori.


A>B>C, therefore A>C logic doesn't work here because Deidara or long-range fighters in general would have an advantage since she lacks the speed required to close the distance before the opponents attack can hit. That's why shinobi like Gai can beat Gaara but Tsunade would lose because she's not fast enough.



IzayaOrihara said:


> She tanked Chou Shinra Tensei but goes down to C2.


CS2 is a shockwave whereas C2 can be launched in succession where 2 were required to damage CS2 Hebi Sasuke's wing (which has shown greater durability than Tsunade). She would get hit by 3-4 and would require an extensive healing period. Moreover, Sasuke was dodging them at his fastest speed, she's going to have to take those head-on or use Katsuyu to cover herself, which I think is unlikely. At some point, Deidara will get tired of it and use C4 and that will end her.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Yeah, its safe to say Tsunade is a hated character. No hard feelings though. Done trying to defend Tsunade on this forum. If we cant abide by manga theres no point in me trying to debate in Tsunade threads anymore.


She's not hated, there are just certain people she can't beat, Deidara is one of them, so is Kisame, so is Itachi, so is Obito, so is Pain/Nagato. Contrary to what you all may want to think, at her best, she's a one-dimensional, close-quarters fighter with auto-healing abilities. That's about it, she has shown 0 elemental ninjutsu and 0 genjutsu. She doesn't use feints and her fighting style is very direct for someone who is so slow.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Tsunade that has Byakugo must go down to C4. She myst go down to decapitation (in other threads). She must not regenerate her spine. Its like Byakugo doesnt do anything the way people on this forum talk.


Every technique has a drawback,  I think it was blatantly obvious that decapitation would render her dead and as for getting bisected, she was pretty much worn out and that's what will happen. Those were two situations that Kishi gave us as a limitation to her power. Most of you guys want to side-step that, for whatever reason.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Mercurial (Jul 5, 2016)

Deidara dodged Hebi Sasuke's attempt to speed blitz him and Hebi Sasuke is much faster than Tsunade, so Deidara can easily dodge Tsunade. From there, seeing her superhuman strength, he takes fly on his clay birds, and repeatedly tags her with C1 and C2. Witnessing her healing and regeneration with Byakugo, he ends her with C3 or C4. She isn't even hoping to tag him, Deidara could fly quickly and skillfully enough to evade Gaara's sand in the freaking desert.

Deidara wins low diff.


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2016)

Honestly Tsunade's regen is only good for when she isn't being hit/targeted, and has some breathing room. Bombarded hits from even Deidara's clay bombs would in my opinion out run the speed of her regen. She doesn't heal fast and damage from explosives are instant. Tsunade can only heal after it damages her body. Some people think she heals so fast that attacks would literally bounce off her. Regen by Mitosis means nothing if those cells going mid-through mitosis are killed off....

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Really @Ryuzaki? Really? Are you really gonna do Tsuna like that?


Like i said there is no point in me trying to defend Tsunade anymore.

She got above Manda (who was bigger than the Snake trio that towered over Konoha) in base while rusty, but she cant get to C2 (let alone when she jumps starting on Katsuyu's head). Mini Katsuyus tanked CST but the full big one cant shield Tsunade from C3 (which Gaara's sand could block). She has a Cellular Regeneration Ability + Raiton (people are saying she never used high level Raiton, but she has A Rank Raiton called Ranshinsho, and Omoi deactivated C0, fucking Omoi) but she is going down to C4. She tanked CST with her body but gets bombarded with C1. Guided C2 kills her while Katsuyu is standing still doing nothing. She is not using Katsuyu at the start of the battle or any time soon even though she is known as the Slug Princess (Chiyo called her "that slug woman" twice on panel, she used Katsuyu when Pain attacked, after the Madara fight, during the Sannin fight, during the 2nd War). She has terrain manipulation greater than Byakugo Sakura in Base but Deidara is getting airborne. She was equal to Orochimaru, whom was a stronger ninja than Sasori, whom Deidara is inferior to, but yeah, Tsunade gets trashed.

This forum can just be too misogynistic/underrating/downplaying some time. I can't use manga panels to disprove misogyny. I have to get you to like Tsuande as a character first and then maybe we can debate, cos i deal in facts, not feelings.



Ryuzaki said:


> No she can't because she's too slow, Sasuke managed to do it because of his agility, CS2 wings.


Tsunade when starting on ground jumped way above Manda, who was taller than snakes that easily towered over Konoha. And Tsunade was fast enough to move as fast as Base Raikage and perform better than V1 Raikage against the clones.

Yeah, misogyny.



> If she starts out by standing on Katsuyu, Deidara would just increase the distance from the ground. He was flying exceptionally high (clearly out of Tsunade's jumping range) when he took down the tortoise island. More to the point, Deidara does not only have a flight advantage but he also retains a speed advantage.


Because Deidara moulds clay, summons bird, jumps on, and flaps to outer space before Tsunade can flick her fingers a few times and/or activate the muscles in her leg tendons.

Yeah, misogyny.




> Assuming she summons Katsuyu, to start the match? Match conditions specifically state IC.


Assuming the Slug Princess who ...

Opened the Sannin Fight with Katsuyu (Kabuto vs Tsunade and JiraTsu vs Orochi, yes, are 2 separate fights)
Was called "Slug girl" by Chiyo twice
Used slugs in the war continuously
Was featured on a cover page with a slug on her shoulder
Summoned a slug to save the Gokage after Madara Fight
Used a slug on the Fourth War Battlefield with Sakura
Summoned a slug when Pain attacked Konoha
Has only had two fucking fights in the whole manga
summons her signature slug, despite Jiraiya/Orochimaru opening all his fights with some form of summoning

Gamaguchi Shibari vs Itachi/Kisame
Tried a Toad vs Orochimaru
Gamabunta in Sannin Fight
Gamaguchi Shibari in Amegakure
Gamaken vs Pain (after the exchange with Konan)
Orochimaru opening with Daitoppa and sending a snake after naruto, then using one on Sasuke after he escaped Sakki paralysis, and then summoned another when both were killed
Edo Tensei on Hiruzen
Snake in Tanzaku-Gai when he confronted Tsunade
Two snakes in the Sannin fight (early stages)
Manda in the Sannin Deadlock
Mandara no Jin vs Naruto
Sen-ei Jashu (Shirohebi) vs Sasuke
Yamata vs Itachi
A small snake when he tried to take Itachi's body
A snake apparition of some sort when he took Gen'yumaru's body
Big snakes when he tag teamed with Hiruzen against the God Tree Branches in the War Arc
But yeah, Tsunade's just a dumb bimbo. She's not gonna summon a slug, especially to gain height when her opponent is fucking flying (assuming Deidara even gets airborne in the first place)


*Spoiler*: __ 











Yeah, misogyny



> She cannot win against Hebi Sasuke


Even though she can beat Prime Orochimaru, who Hebi Sasuke cannot. Even though she can beat Healthy Itachi, when Hebi Sasuke can't beat Sick Itachi. Even though she has perfect counter to Genjutsu, a summon that naturally counters Manda, and oh yeah, a regeneration ability?

Yeah, misogyny.



> and her feats against Madara were a combination of a 4 other kage providing her assistance in order to make the hit.


Did she have help when she fought 5 clones just like all the others? No. Did Raikage need help? Yes. Did Mei? Yes.


Yeah, misogyny.



> If she went 1 vs. 1 against Madara, she would have been gutted in the first page of the chapter.


So? As would any of the Gokage.


Yeah, misogyny.



> A>B>C, therefore A>C logic doesn't work here because Deidara or long-range fighters in general would have an advantage since she lacks the speed required to close the distance before the opponents attack can hit. That's why shinobi like Gai can beat Gaara but Tsunade would lose because she's not fast enough.



Tsunade can't beat Gaara? Even though she took Susano swords with little problems and beat down V3 Legged Susanos? When Gaara's defences got smashed? Tsunade, who in base is stronger than Byakugo Sakura? And has Katsuyu?


Yeah, misogyny.



> CS2 is a shockwave whereas C2 can be launched in succession where 2 were required to damage CS2 Hebi Sasuke's wing (which has shown greater durability than Tsunade). She would get hit by 3-4 and would require an extensive healing period. Moreover, Sasuke was dodging them at his fastest speed, she's going to have to take those head-on or use Katsuyu to cover herself, which I think is unlikely. At some point, Deidara will get tired of it and use C4 and that will end her.


And Tsunade is slower than Hebi Sasuke? Give me a direct proof.
If you give me a scan of Hebi Sasuke moving as fast as Base Raikage, and beating down clones which forced V1 A on the defensive, and not getting caught and put in Genjutsu while Riakage was caught? Then I will concede.



> She's not hated,


Yes she is. People say she cant beat 3TS Madara when she fought equally with 5 V3 Susano using Clones that have Rinnegan/Mokuton/EMS. That is hate. Or misogyny. Same difference to be honest.



> there are just certain people she can't beat, Deidara is one of them, so is Kisame, so is Itachi, so is Obito, so is Pain/Nagato.


*TSUNADE CAN NOT BEAT KISAME?*
*TSUNADE CAN NOT BEAT ITACHI?*

*Spoiler*: __ 




Even though she has stronger punches than the one that took off Kisame's chest cavity (which he would regenerate from as Tsunade doesnt wear chakra as a second pair of clothes like Bee). Even though Kisame basically stated in Part 1 he could not fight a Sannin, and implied he was inferior to Base Jiraiya and Nerfed Orochimaru?

Even though she has shown 3 viable counters to Amaterasu, healed Tsukuyomi on panel with a medical ninjutsu inferior to her regeneration, has the Yin Seal to hard-counter Genjutsu: Sharingan, and has fought multiple stronger Susano'os at one time?

Like, Itachi I can understand, but Kisame? Really?




And you say Tsunade isn't hated. You are one of the people that hates her. This is why I said there is no point trying to defend her. 70% of people here hate Tsunade.



> Contrary to what you all may want to think, at her best, she's a one-dimensional, close-quarters fighter with auto-healing abilities.


She has terrain manipulation much greater than Byakugo Sakura, and has Zesshi Nensan (which can be made much much much bigger like Onoki's Jinton, a Mega-Jinton Tsunade made on low reserves might I add) but she is only close quarters. She is one dimensional despite using Katsuyu herself for offence, defence, healing, tactics (Katsuyu that out sped CST and Animal Path's summon when defending Konoha Citizens [against CST] and Ino i think it was [against Animal Path]), being a good tank, having super strength, showing great speed and jumping feats, having abilities like Ranshinsho (which would neg anyone that isnt as smart as Kabuto, and would deactivate Deidara's bombs), Chakra Scalpel and Reverse Shosen (both of these abilities have been shown at one point to be something that can come close to killing Orochimaru), and is a skilled poison expert, better than Chiyo who negged Hanzo's poison, better than Sakura who negged Sasori's poison, having a poison that reduced jiraiya's power to almost nothing, and being the only ninja in the world according to Jiraiya, who could poison a ninja without them knowing,

but she is one dimensional. This is just misogyny. I am disrespecting all women in the world (and in the Naruto Manga) by even participating in this debate.

So what if she auto-healing abilities? is that not a good thing? And stop saying healing, its regeneration. Nice try anyway, misogynist.

*Spoiler*: _Read her words and Chōza's words_ 













> That's about it, she has shown 0 elemental ninjutsu and 0 genjutsu.


Ranshinsho? A Raiton?

Okay, was there a panel in the manga that stated Tsunade is Genin level? Because i don't know where this is going anymore.



> She doesn't use feints


So because she doesn't fight like Itachi and Sasuke she can't beat anyone. Does Sasori fight like Itachi and Sasuke? No. Can he beat Deidara? Yes. Does Orochimaru use feints? No. Can he beat Deidara? Yes? Can Tsunade beat those two? Yes? ABC logic or not, does she have the ability to beat Deidara? Yes.



> and her fighting style is very direct for someone who is so slow.


Slow?
She defended Naruto from Orochimaru's attacks three times while rusty and injured, starting from inconvenient positions.
She poisoned Jiraiya without him knowing.
She attacked Shizune and disappeared instantly.
She moved as fast as Base Raikage while injured and outmaneouvered the clones that pressured him, again while injured.
She moved across a forest portion and attacked Madara, only needing a panel to close the distance.
She jumped above the Boss Summons (who stand taller than Konoha) and hit Manda before he could eat Gamabunta
She made it to Naruto vs Pain battlefield before two inshape Anbu did, while on low reserves after tanking CST and healing Konoha

This is just getting silly now.



> Every technique has a drawback,  I think it was blatantly obvious that decapitation would render her dead and as for getting bisected, she was pretty much worn out and that's what will happen.


Prove she can't survive a decapitation.
And her byakugo ran out before she was bisected, thats why.



> Those were two situations that Kishi gave us as a limitation to her power.


And Deidara doesn't have limitations.



> Most of you guys want to side-step that, for whatever reason.


One thing you said was false, and the other was stupid, but i am sidestepping, you absolute fool.

@Ryuzaki, I have never seen a post more shocking in the entirety of my history on Naruto Forums. This is why I said I needed to retire from NBD. I thought maybe things would change, but clearly I was wrong. Wanking Uchiha, Ignoring the Manga, and Misogyny. Yep, it's a wrap. You won't see me in the Naruto Battledome after this post.


Well guys, I'd like to say it's only been a pleasure, but my time here is up.
@HandfullofNaruto - thank you for our private Itachi vs Orochimaru debate; was the best I ever had
@Zuhaitz @ - thanks for the Kakuzu vs Tsunade argument we had ages back, was a good one
@Isaiah13000 - thank you for our Manda vs Kakuzu thread, it was the funniest argument I've ever been in
@cctr9 @LAZLOLAZZING @PhantomSage @lol - thanks for your help (alongside HandfullofNaruto/Isaiah13000) for your support in the Orochimaru vs Itachi debates
@Icegaze - thanks for making me laugh. Your debating style is funnier than my jokes and witticisms.
@Sapherosth - thanks for waking me up. Your Itachi fanfics were enticing.
@Grimmjowsensei / @ARGUS / @hbcaptain / @blackguyinpinksuit - lol
@UchihaX28 - thank you. You were different from other Itachi fans. You never underrated Orochimaru nor used fanfictions to support Itachi.
@Hussain - thanks for just being you. You are too intelligent for this forum, trust me. You as well @Zuhaitz, but please, help @HandfullofNaruto slay the Sannin-haters in my place
@Shanal - thanks for the Suigetsu vs Kimimaro thread we had back in the day, i enjoyed that one too,
@Ryuzaki - thank you for teaching me what a terrible place the NBD can really be. You enlightened things for me.
@Drake - we all have flaws, no one is perfect, so thanks for point out my flaws, it bettered me as a person
@HandfullofNaruto - thank you above all for being the one person who believed me (when I said Prime Orochimaru > Healthy Itachi) when everyone else thought I was crazy. Thank you for being the only one who was willing to hear me out, when everyone shunned me and treated me like they treated lepers in the Bible. Thank you most of all. I will never forget debating that match-up with you. Even after disagreeing with half of my essay, you still managed to see the light.

I had some good memories of the Naruto Battledome (and Konoha Library), and I will cherish them forever, but in a forum where Tsunade is treated like this, Prime Orochimaru is called a fanmade character (despite Kishimoto drawing him in a fight with Hiruzen in Part 1 ... like, lol?) while the same people use fanfic for Itachi (those people know who they are, no need to tag them anymore), and above all, people accept/ignore the manga when it suits them (and always commit double standards, logical fallacies and cases of intellectual dishonesty), I just can't hack it anymore.

It's been fun. And at the end of the day, I won the Orochimaru vs Itachi (as well as Itachi vs KN4, Itachi vs Sasori, Itachi vs Jiraiya) debates I've had with different users. All I originally came to do on this forum was prove that Prime Orochimaru was stronger than Itachi Uchiha, and beats Healthy Itachi in a High Difficulty Fight under a Neutral Battle Scenario, and I did just this, and even if no one believes me (7 people do), at the end of the day, I know the truth, and thats all that matters, just like I know Tsunade beats Deidara, despite the misogyny I have witnessed today.



But again, thanks, and it's been fun. Back in 2015, I just used to come on Naruto Forums as a visitor to read through NBD debates (oh, the dramas back then lol!) and I guess I will just go back to doing that. Nothing to discuss in Konoha Library either, I got the answers to the questions I had, and overall, the manga is over now so it's time to lay it all to rest and move on with my life. One Piece Avenue - was thinking of becoming a regular debater but there's no point. The fanboyism/misogyny there is even worse. Mihawk/Zoro wank is so bad. Even Itachi fans would be disgusted. I am done here. @Equilibrium139 - we are currently privately debating Jiraiya vs Itachi with @HandfullofNaruto, so I'll stay on long enough to finish that debate. I owe it to you as well as myself, but after that, I will be taking a break from Naruto Forums. One that will last forever.

People on this forum can continue acting the way they do or just listen to Lord Orochimaru


As for my Itachi-fan friends:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Itachi > Kaguya is a beautiful lie, but you know the truth. Itachi < people whose names I don't need to repeat.

*-snip-*

@IzayaOrihara's final NF debating post, as of 5:44 pm (GMT - 5), Wed. 6 July 2016.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Mithos (Jul 6, 2016)

Why can't Tsunade run raiton through herself before C4 kills her (if it can even out-speed Byakugou)? 

Godaime Tsunade showed that Sasuke had time to look at his body and talk before even most of his body had disintegrated. With regeneration, that would be plenty of time for her to activate raiton then heal the damage.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I didn't, I just gave up halfway through, you know a discussion has hit the shits when they start pulling out memes from some random anime no one gives a shit about to justify their distaste about your opinion.


I feel sorry for your mother because of your misogyny. Maybe she abandoned you when you were younger to pursue a high level career? is that why you harbour such inner hate for women?

Which random anime? One of the memes i pulled up was of Orochimaru. Then again i doubt you even know who that is as you have never read the manga. Durarara? A "random manga". Lol, you should give it a watch sometime. Maybe it'll change you views towards women and many other things. You need change. Very soon.



> I'll have to take a look at later but from my brief understanding he kind of quit the BD because I pointed out the obvious.


I quit the BD because i am sick of

Misogyny (aka this very thread)
Bias for Itachi (and others e.g. Raikage)/Bias against Sannin (and others e.g. Sasori)
People ignoring the manga (aka this very thread)]
Its a build up of many things that have occurred recently. And I'm just sick.



> I don't know anymore, last time I was here, he was riding Orochimaru so hard we had to put a thread-starting limit on him.


So reading manga / uncovering misconceptions = riding/wanking. @Isaiah13000 @PhantomSage @LAZLOLAZZING @cctr9 @Hussain @HandfullofNaruto seem to think differently.

And anyway: Just *who the fuck* _do you actually think you are speaking to. Because it cannot be me._ I wanted to leave this place on a high note and I said thanks to all the posters I had fun with, but still, *you people insult me to the very end*. What the fuck is wrong with you?



> Good riddance


Good riddance to you too bitch.



> Edit: I think he called me misogynist somewhere in there


I called you a misogynist several times, or what, can you not read? Dyslectic little fool.

Rather than let me go in peace and love, you continue to insult me. Go throw yourself off a bridge you degenerate.

Pointed out the obvious? What obvious? I proved Tsunade > Deidara and beats him with Mid-High Difficulty. You then went on to make up lies in order to erase Tsunade's feats, but just know you can never erase the manga. Just know that.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Why can't Tsunade run raiton through herself before C4 kills her (if it can even out-speed Byakugou)?
> 
> Godaime Tsunade showed that Sasuke had time to look at his body and talk before even most of his body had disintegrated. With regeneration, that would be plenty of time for her to activate raiton then heal the damage.


Tell that to @Ryuzaki please because he has such hatred for me that even when I use the manga to support my argument then calmly try to leave the DB, he still insults me

Anyway I said i was leaving, im not supposed to be here. Goodbye all.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I feel sorry for your mother because of your misogyny. Maybe she abandoned you when you were younger to pursue a high level career? is that why you harbour such inner hate for women?
> 
> Which random anime? One of the memes i pulled up was of Orochimaru. Then again i doubt you even know who that is as you have never read the manga. Durarara? A "random manga". Lol, you should give it a watch sometime. Maybe it'll change you views towards women and many other things. You need change. Very soon.
> 
> ...


You're taking this way too seriously, it's just a discussion, when things get personal, you need to just let it slide or you'll just be angry over nothing. I was just joking around with good riddance part tough, you don't have to leave. But I wasn't joking about the thread limitation, you made a new thread for orochimaru like every other hour when you were active.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You're taking this way too seriously,


Exactly. That's why I'm leaving. Why are people surprised, I said earlier this week i was retiring from NF anyway.


> it's just a discussion,


Let me quote my favourite DBZ character Frieza: "I deal in facts, not legends (referring to Vegeta chanting about the Super Saiyan)"
In the same way, "I deal in facts, not feelings". I saw in the manga that Tsunade > Deidara, Jiraiya vs Mu, Prime Orochimaru > Itachi, and despite the insults i get, who has ever really disproved my arguments? The replies I get are either ones that are based on ignoring the manga, or ones, that dont ignore it, but are just people committing intellectual dishonesty.
I have no need to be on a Naruto Forum where people are not debating using the manga. I saw no scans in your argument (while mine was full of them), just your subjective opinion.


> when things get personal,


Exactly, NF is taking over my life. Thats why I want to leave. I spend too much time on here anyway. I have a driving test tomorrow and what am i doing? Sitting here listening to people trash Tsunade, trash Jiraiya, say Itachi has legged Susanoo (fanfic) yet the same people call Prime Orochimaru a fanfiction (when we saw him fighting in Part 1). I should have left back then anyway.


> you need to just let it slide or you'll just be angry over nothing.


I can't let it slide and that's why I'm leaving. I use manga arguments and people just say bullshit to trash my favourite characters (who are the Three Sannin, coincidentally), and I cant let it slide, yet people on this forum will never change, so thats why I want to leave.


> I was just joking around with good riddance part tough, you don't have to leave.


Hoenstly even if you werent joking i wouldnt care. The quicker i go the better. Maybe there is another forum out there where everyone uses the manga to debate rather than subjectivity. 


> But I wasn't joking about the thread limitation, you made a new thread for orochimaru like every other hour when you were active.


Okay. And?

Like I said, im done here on NF anyway. I have a debate to finish with @Equlibrium139 but after that I'm finished.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 6, 2016)

Tsunade running raiton through her veins? 

When can she do that? last I checked, you need to be a VERY good raiton user. Tsunade has never shown any raiton in the manga at all.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jul 6, 2016)

tsunade kills him with minor difficulty.

if deidara takes to the skies, then tsunade jumps off the biju sized katsuyu to reach him. katsuyu can just set up a diversion using her acid.
basically this happens.

*Spoiler*: __ 








off of his bird, tsunade punches the ground and decimates the entire area around her, making him lose footing and potentially sending him flying. tsunade closes in and in cqc deidara dies easily.

katsuyus acid can melt any large scale explosive that deidara fire before it actually lands. the damage can be healed by the strength of a hundred as well.
c4 is easily healed off with strength of a hundred and tsunades body pathway derangement sends raiton chakra throughout the entire nervous system, so that works as a secondary countermeasure.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Exactly. That's why I'm leaving. Why are people surprised, I said earlier this week i was retiring from NF anyway.
> 
> Let me quote my favourite DBZ character Frieza: "I deal in facts, not legends (referring to Vegeta chanting about the Super Saiyan)"
> In the same way, "I deal in facts, not feelings". I saw in the manga that Tsunade > Deidara, Jiraiya vs Mu, Prime Orochimaru > Itachi, and despite the insults i get, who has ever really disproved my arguments? The replies I get are either ones that are based on ignoring the manga, or ones, that dont ignore it, but are just people committing intellectual dishonesty.
> ...


Well then stop responding and piss off already, no one really cares about your homotional experience here, frankly we'll probably be better off without you derailing every thread into some excuse for you to turn all of us into chauvinists/misogynists. I was just trying to be courteous but hey, if you don't like it here, then leave.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well then stop responding and piss off already,


Did I Insult you? Did I?


> no one really cares about your homotional experience here,


Looked "homotional" up on google dictionary. Found no results.


> frankly we'll probably be better off without you derailing every thread into some excuse for you to turn all of us into chauvinists/misogynists. I was just trying to be courteous but hey, if you don't like it here, then leave.


I will leave. I don't like people who ignore the manga. And frankly, I don't like you.


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> If he knew that the Sasuke was fake then why would he bother commenting on whether the speed of C4 is too slow or too fast?
> 
> Sasuke and Deidara fell in two different places and he didn't see Sasuke, all he saw was some snakes which logically a snake would die off faster then the human due to the size.



You're not getting the point. We have Deidara's words on Sasuke not catching him in time before C4 destroys his body. His words supports what we saw in genjutsu.

It doesn't matter if he didn't see Sasuke or anything. That's not the point because he already knew Sasuke was not going to make it in time. And Sasuke wouldn't have made in time if he didn't deactivated the nanobombs. Kishimoto clearly told us that when he showed us Sasuke surviving because of he deactivated them, not because the C4 was slow enough to only destroy some snakes.

And that's human sized being destroyed before he could close a relatively close distance at Chidori speed. Wich is impressive and way faster than Byakugo. Not to mention that even if we base it on the snakes, it's still feat-wise faster than Byakugo. But it isn't. Sasuke only survived because of Chidori.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> You're not getting the point. We have Deidara's words on Sasuke not catching him in time before C4 destroys his body. His words supports what we saw in genjutsu.
> 
> It doesn't matter if he didn't see Sasuke or anything. That's not the point because he already knew Sasuke was not going to make it in time. And Sasuke wouldn't have made in time if he didn't deactivated the nanobombs. Kishimoto clearly told us that when he showed us Sasuke surviving because of he deactivated them, not because the C4 was slow enough to only destroy some snakes.
> 
> And that's human sized being destroyed before he could close a relatively close distance at Chidori speed. Wich is impressive and way faster than Byakugo. Not to mention that even if we base it on the snakes, it's still feat-wise faster than Byakugo. But it isn't. Sasuke only survived because of Chidori.



So basically because Deidara said Sasuke shouldn't catch him I should believe him when he made quite a few claims before hand which turned out wrong and I should also believe that Sasuke who has never even seen or heard of C4 before in his life was able to magically get the timing down right with his C4(twice) along with the fact that Deidara is known to be very cocky when it comes to his skills and I shouldn't be wary of either of those facts along with C4 only being used Via controlled Genjutsu and I should just hope Sasuke's timing was right?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jul 6, 2016)

Empathy said:


> How would she know he's weak to raiton?



Didn't Sasuke figure it out by noticing that Deidara makes the "doton" hand sign whenever he does a jutsu? If Tsunade noticed the same thing, I would certainly assume she knows about the elemental wheel. (Her having a ranged raiton is definitely a stretch, though.)


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 6, 2016)

@IzayaOrihara 
You have no idea how much they're actually going to miss you. They'll say stuff like "Good riddance." but all I see is pain in their words. Without you, there is nobody for them to annoy. It's just going to be a bunch of unanimous bullshit. Like two Social Justice Warriorrs talking to one another. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



So on behalf of
@Ryuzaki 
@Sapherosth @Grimmjowsensei 
@Icegaze 
@ARGUS 
@hbcaptain 
@TheSocialJusticeWarriorsofNF




Also would like to say Tsunade beats Deidara Mid-High difficulty. She has perfect counters whether you like it or not. She can run Raiton throughout an opponents body so I'm pretty sure she can use it on herself with the addition of cellular regeneration. So healing at a cellular level while using raiton to counter should most definitely keep her safe from Deidaras attacks. Also Manda if Manda can tank C0. I see no reason why Katsuyu (whose a far better tank) cannot do the same thing. 

As for offense. Deidara being airborne might be a bit of a problem for your average shinobi. Good thing this is the Hokage, the legendary Sannin and slug princess Tsunade. With feats & portrayal, Tsunade is above Deidara. 

Tsunade has leapt over Bijuu size summons while carrying a Bijuu sized sword. If she were to use Katsuyus height and jump from there. She'd need regeneration just to survive such a massive fucking fall (though Katsuyu could just catch her.). You also have to consider everyone we've seen Tsunade face has had special durability. Deidara doesn't have this. One punch and its lights out. People like Orochimaru & ET Madara can tank attacks like that because their bodies are.. hardly human.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

> Also would like to say Tsunade beats Deidara Mid-High difficulty. She has perfect counters whether you like it or not. She can run Raiton throughout an opponents body so I'm pretty sure she can use it on herself with the addition of cellular regeneration. So healing at a cellular level while using raiton to counter should most definitely keep her safe from Deidaras attacks. Also Manda if Manda can tank C0. I see no reason why Katsuyu (whose a far better tank) cannot do the same thing.
> 
> As for offense. Deidara being airborne might be a bit of a problem for your average shinobi. Good thing this is the Hokage, the legendary Sannin and slug princess Tsunade. With feats & portrayal, Tsunade is above Deidara.
> 
> Tsunade has leapt over Bijuu size summons while carrying a Bijuu sized sword. If she were to use Katsuyus height and jump from there. She'd need regeneration just to survive such a massive fucking fall (though Katsuyu could just catch her.). You also have to consider everyone we've seen Tsunade face has had special durability. Deidara doesn't have this. One punch and its lights out. People like Orochimaru & ET Madara can tank attacks like that because their bodies are.. hardly human.


Don't bother. @Ryuzaki thinks Tsunade is Genin tier. No point tryna change his bias. He just doesn't like women. Who knows why.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> @IzayaOrihara
> You have no idea how much they're actually going to miss you. They'll say stuff like "Good riddance." but all I see is pain in their words. Without you, there is nobody for them to annoy. It's just going to be a bunch of unanimous bullshit. Like two Social Justice Warriorrs talking to one another.
> So on behalf of
> @Ryuzaki
> ...


And I'll miss you all too. You just understand that I can't stay on a forum where
people are saying Tsunade has no Raiton (when she showed Ranshinsho)
people are saying Tsunade cant jump to C2 (when she "Tsunade has leapt over Bijuu size summons while carrying a Bijuu sized sword. If she were to use Katsuyus height and jump from there.")
people are saying a cellular regeneration ability cannot counter a cellular attack (like wtf? all this speed of bombs is just made up rubbish to underrate Byakugo - Tsunade said she will never die in battle/Choza said she will never lose, and hyperbole or not, consider the person she lost to was Edo fucking Madara aka Asspulldara)

It's no hard feelings. A lot of things have made me want to retire from NF, but this thread (some of the responses i got) was the icing on the cake. As for the cherry on top? @Ryuzaki's response to Jiraiya vs Mu was that. I need to retire soon. Honestly I'm just waiting for @Equlibrium139 to get back so we can finish that debate we were doing with him @HandfullofNaruto.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> So basically because Deidara said Sasuke shouldn't catch him I should believe him when he made quite a few claims before hand which turned out wrong and I should also believe that Sasuke who has never even seen or heard of C4 before in his life was able to magically get the timing down right with his C4(twice) along with the fact that Deidara is known to be very cocky when it comes to his skills and I shouldn't be wary of either of those facts along with C4 only being used Via controlled Genjutsu and I should just hope Sasuke's timing was right?



Deidara said he was not going to do it in time, Sasuke said he survived because he deactivated Doton when Deidara didn't know how the heck he survived, implying again, that Sasuke couldn't have closed the distance before disappearing. Sasuke didn't say it was slower, nor he was very durable and sexy. He said he deactivated it. Until furthe proof, Sasuke only survived because of his Chidori, and not because C4 is slow. Because it's speed is backed up by the creator's words and not by our arguments.

Sounds like their words hold more value over yours, dear Bonly. There's no other proof other than speculation and lack of evidence that you know C4 better than Deidara. Or that he was wrong.

C4 speed wasn't proven wrong. Kishimoto didn't say "Hey, let me make C4 faster in genjutsu, so that people in Narutoforums would have some evidence to deny it when it comes to Tsunade (because everything has a failure, even if unfair, when it comes to the advantage of Tsunade )". Kishimoto drew C4 as how it is. But we don't need to go these deep details.

There's no proof that C4 is slower, and like i said, i'd follow Deidara's words over any argument here until we see his C4 is actually slower. But you know, it hasn't been shown it is slower. So yeah, believe it .


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Deidara said he was not going oto do it in time, Sasuke said he survived because he deactivated Doton.
> 
> Sounds like their words hold more value over yours, dear Bonly. There's no other proof other than speculation and lack of evidence that you know C4 better than Deidara. Or that he was wrong.



So in other words Deidara made a yet another claim that turned out to be wrong and the Uchiha who never seen the jutsu magically got the timing right. Yup his words has as much value as Zetsu saying Itachi is invincible which are indeed over mines

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 6, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Tsunade running raiton through her veins?
> 
> When can she do that? last I checked, you need to be a VERY good raiton user. Tsunade has never shown any raiton in the manga at all.


Tsunade who can send electricity throughout the entire nervous system, is a top tier medical ninja with an A Rank Raiton, Ranshinsho, who also possesses a cellular regeneration ability, but she goes down to C4 of course.

Genin > Tsunade confirmed.
Itachi > Kaguya confirmed. 

Are you happy now @Sapherosth? Because that is all I could possibly say to please you.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2016)

@Bonly 
Show me C4 being slow and Deidara being wrong. Show me Sasuke reaching Deidara because C4 was slow and not because he had to deactivate it, and i'll believe your point.

But i won't go the unfair route with Deidara, putting my own argument over his own words if we do not have any proof to back our claims other than he was wrong back in the day in other things not remotely related to C4's speed.

He wasn't wrong. He wasn't proven wrong. Sasuke survivied because of other means, not because C4 was too slow or too fast. So... show me why i should believe your argument instead of Deidara's non proven wrong one.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Show me C4 being slow and Deidara being wrong. Show me Sasuke reaching Deidara because C4 was slow and not because he had to deactivate it, and i'll believe your point.
> 
> But i won't go the unfair route with Deidara, putting my own argument over his own words if we do not have any proof to back our claims other than he was wrong back in the day in other things not remotely related to C4's speed.
> 
> He wasn't wrong. He wasn't proven wrong. Sasuke survivied because of other means, not because C4 was too slow or too fast. So... show me why i should believe your argument instead of Deidara's non proven wrong one.



Show me C4 being used when not in a controlled genjutsu of a 15 year old kid.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Show me C4 being used when not in a controlled genjutsu of a 15 year old kid.



Didn't i? He used it on Sasuke the second time, the time were Sasuke rushed at him and he said "You're not going to do it in time" with a smile on his face and letting Sasuke get as close as he wanted to him, because he was sure C4 was going to kill him before he got close. And that wasn't a genjutsu, you know?


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Didn't i? He used it on Sasuke the second time, the time were Sasuke rushed at him and he said "You're not going to do it in time" with a smile on his face and letting Sasuke get as close as he wanted to him, because he was sure C4 was going to kill him before he got close. And that wasn't a genjutsu, you know?



This is Deidara's eye when he realized he was in a genjutsu the first time, and this is Deidara's eye the second time he used C4. Sharingan eyes in the background after the first C4 and Sharingan eyes after the second C4. Sasuke used Chidori on himself inside the C4 clone and Deidara ended up seeing something disintegrate which wouldn't have happened unless Sasuke wanted him to see it. Seems like a Genjutsu to me


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2016)

I love how people are randomly assigning Tsunade raiton like it's nothing, I mean if people started using the wind element for Itachi like that, you all would have your panties in a knot.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I love how people are randomly assigning Tsunade raiton like it's nothing, I mean if people started using the wind element for Itachi like that, you all would have your panties in a knot.


The difference is she's used Raiton. It isn't some random shit were pulling out of nowhere. In part one she used Raiton on Kabuto.

Edit:
*Spoiler*: __ 







Edit2: She literally says I changed my chakra into electricity. I don't know why you're so confused.

Edit3: It's like saying Jiraiya can't use Earth Style even though we've seen him use A-Rank earth style (Yomi Numa). It's common sense my friend.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 6, 2016)

@walpurgis Burgoo do you have anything to say lol? You just keep disagreeing with Tsunades supporters. Care to debate?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Android (Jul 6, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> The difference is she's used Raiton. It isn't some random shit were pulling out of nowhere. In part one she used Raiton on Kabuto.
> 
> Edit:
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


You have been reported for solo'ing the thread

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Jad (Jul 6, 2016)

If Tsunade gets to use Raiton jutsu, so does Gai. Fuck it, I like the idea of Raiton user Might Gai!

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> When did Gai use raiton in the manga?



He never used it in the manga but the DB said Gai can use Raitons and Katons

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> He never used it in the manga but the DB said Gai can use Raitons and Katons


 I'm not going by Databook though. I have manga scans of Tsunade using raiton. So...

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'm not going by Databook though. I have manga scans of Tsunade using raiton. So...



I didn't say you was, I was just pointing out where it's stated since someone brought it up I'm guessing

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonly said:


> I didn't say you was, I was just pointing out where it's stated since someone brought it up I'm guessing


 I know that. I saw your earlier posts. I was just clarifying.


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## Empathy (Jul 6, 2016)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> Didn't Sasuke figure it out by noticing that Deidara makes the "doton" hand sign whenever he does a jutsu? If Tsunade noticed the same thing, I would certainly assume she knows about the elemental wheel. (Her having a ranged raiton is definitely a stretch, though.)



He did, but he specifically credited his sharingan for being able to see his hand-seals. [1] It's the same way that Kakashi was able to beat _Doton: Domu (_note the panel close-up of Kakashi's sharingan)_. _[2] Tsunade doesn't have a sharingan.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> The difference is she's used Raiton. It isn't some random shit were pulling out of nowhere. In part one she used Raiton on Kabuto.
> 
> Edit:
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


That's not listed as a raiton jutsu, all of the element based jutsu are listed as such. 

The biggest difference between them is that Jiraiya specifically says "doton: yomi numa" and then it's written as in the databook as that too. There is nothing indicating the same for Tsunade. Kishi has been really good about using the elemental prefixes prior.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 7, 2016)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> Didn't Sasuke figure it out by noticing that Deidara makes the "doton" hand sign whenever he does a jutsu? If Tsunade noticed the same thing, I would certainly assume she knows about the elemental wheel. (Her having a ranged raiton is definitely a stretch, though.)




Sasuke noticed it with his sharingan and he tested it through charging his katana with raiton and stabbing the bombs underground first. Tsunade has no such luxury here.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 7, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's not listed as a raiton jutsu, all of the element based jutsu are listed as such.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Data
Classification Ninjutsu, 
Nature

 Lightning Release
Rank: A-rank
Class: Supplementary
Range: Short-range
*Users*








> The biggest difference between them is that Jiraiya specifically says "doton: yomi numa" and then it's written as in the databook as that too. There is nothing indicating the same for Tsunade. Kishi has been really good about using the elemental prefixes prior.


 She says "I turned my chakra into electricity." The DB classifies it as an A-Rank Lightning Release Ninjustu/Medical Ninjutsu. Just because she doesn't announce its chakra nature when she uses it doesn't mean it's lacking that chakra nature. Especially considering the fact that no more that two pages later she says its raiton.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's not listed as a raiton jutsu, all of the element based jutsu are listed as such.
> 
> The biggest difference between them is that Jiraiya specifically says "doton: yomi numa" and then it's written as in the databook as that too. There is nothing indicating the same for Tsunade. Kishi has been really good about using the elemental prefixes prior.



Did you know that in the manga Kakashi nor Sasuke have ever said(IIRC that is) Raiton Raikiri/Chidori and in the databook for both  and  they don't have the Raiton prefix just like Tsunade's jutsu.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 7, 2016)

Have we seen people who can't use Katon turn their chakra into fire?

Have we seen people who can't use Doton turn their chakra into earth.

Have we seen people who can't use futon turn their chakra into wind?

Have we seen people who can't use Suiton turn their chakra into water?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 7, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @walpurgis Burgoo do you have anything to say lol? You just keep disagreeing with Tsunades supporters. Care to debate?


He doesn't. he's just a parasite who likes to hide behind others rather than substantiate his own argument. He keeps disliking posts thinking he is getting anywhere. We show him a panel of Tsunade using Raiton and he dislikes it. He just doesn't know anything.


HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly


Bonly said:


> Did you know that in the manga Kakashi nor Sasuke have ever said(IIRC that is) Raiton Raikiri/Chidori and in the databook for both  and  they don't have the Raiton prefix just like Tsunade's jutsu.


Exactly


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Have we seen people who can't use Katon turn their chakra into fire?
> 
> Have we seen people who can't use Doton turn their chakra into earth.
> 
> ...


Exactly

But these people will do anything to bring her down.

This thread is over.
She jumps to C2 and gives a Byakugo-Sakura + level punch to Deidara and kills him. If that doesn;t work, Katsuyu tanks C3, Tsunade (with Byakugo no Jutsu) tanks C4, and when Deidara is exhausted, she runs up to him and punches him.

So simple, but misogynists always find a way to be salty. Why is a Sannin losing to someone inferior to Sasori? It doesn't make sense.


Bonly said:


> Between Byakugo and Katsuyu Tsunade can pretty much deal with C1+C2 for the most part. C4 destroy the body on a cellular level while Byakugo regens on a cellular level so Tsunade should be able to heal from it as long as she has enough chakra and C0 is restricted so that pretty much leaves him with C3. Tsunade reaching him might be a pain but between a ground pound with a likely big range to catch him as well as using Katsuyu for extra height to jump and reach him(she jumped pretty damn high to catch Manda) along with Katsuyu being able to spit acid and causing a distraction she has a decent shot at eventually reaching him and if Deidara chose to fly way high into the sky then all that does is give Tsunade more time to avoid his bombs or she might have a range Raiton to help deal with them.
> 
> Most people are just gonna say that Deidara is a terrible match up for just because he can fly and will say he nukes her to hell but those people ignore the fact that Tsunade being able to heal/dodge his attacks along with the fact that Deidara doesn't have an infinite amount of clay which means he can run out as well as the fact that Tsunade has Raiton also makes her a bad match up for Deidara. Deidara's only shot at winning is C3 imo and we've seen how cocky Deidara is and how he doesn't bring out the big guns until after he's been fighting for the most part or unless he was trapped(as an Edo going for C0 which is distracted) and with that type of mindset Tsunade has a good shot at reaching him and taking him out. I'd say this could go either way though I'd give the nod to Tsunade more often then not



Thread should have ended here. Tsunade wins this by both hype/portrayal and feats/abilities.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2016)

Bonly said:


> This is Deidara's eye when he realized he was in a genjutsu the first time, and this is Deidara's eye the second time he used C4. Sharingan eyes in the background after the first C4 and Sharingan eyes after the second C4. Sasuke used Chidori on himself inside the C4 clone and Deidara ended up seeing something disintegrate which wouldn't have happened unless Sasuke wanted him to see it. Seems like a Genjutsu to me



Look at next page where Deidara says "This isn't another Ilusion, then" and Sasuke proceeds to explain _why _he survived C4.

And still, assuming it is genjutsu, it was _before _Deidara fell in genjutsu where he said Sasuke wouldn't close the distance in time. So, we would still have Deidara's comment on C4's speed wich was never proven wrong.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Did you know that in the manga Kakashi nor Sasuke have ever said(IIRC that is) Raiton Raikiri/Chidori and in the databook for both  and  they don't have the Raiton prefix just like Tsunade's jutsu.


Except the databook has it listed as a raiton natured jutsu, it doesn't have Tsunade's jutsu listed there as one


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Have we seen people who can't use Katon turn their chakra into fire?
> 
> Have we seen people who can't use Doton turn their chakra into earth.
> 
> ...


Have we seen Jiraiya use sensing? Frog Kata? But you all attribute it to him like he's as adept as Naruto. 

The double standard is real.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about the wikipedia entry that you just edited, the real databook doesn't have it listed as a raiton jutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Roman (Jul 7, 2016)

Literally the only thing Tsunade can do in this scenario is heal herself. She can't reach him even if we assume speed equal due to the height advantage. Not to mention her healing was never shown to be fast enough to counter the rate at which C0 disintegrates the target's body. Also, the healing is a conscious effort with the seal located on the head. Remove the head and she's as dead as anyone else. She's able to heal but she's not Wolverine.

Having raiton (assuming she does) only helps her to defend herself for a time, but one should also consider Sasuke managed to disable Deidara's bombs from beneath the ground because his Sharingan could see them. There's nothing to suggest Tsunade could pinpoint the location of bombs hidden in the ground like Sasuke did. So even if she knew raiton, she wouldn't necessarily be able to protect herself from hidden bombs, at least not as efficiently.

Deidara takes this handily.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Look at next page where Deidara says "This isn't another Ilusion, then" and Sasuke proceeds to explain _why _he survived C4.
> 
> And still, assuming it is genjutsu, it was _before _Deidara fell in genjutsu where he said Sasuke wouldn't close the distance in time. So, we would still have Deidara's comment on C4's speed wich was never proven wrong.



Yeah he said the Sasuke in front of him wasn't an illusion and was confused.

Deidara was looking right at Sasuke the moment he popped out of the C4 clone which gave Sasuke time to put Deidara in a genjutsu before Deidara went to detonate C4. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Except the databook has it listed as a raiton natured jutsu, it doesn't have Tsunade's jutsu listed there as one



I looked and I don't see either of them with Raiton in their DB entry, closest to it would be it mentioning that it's chakra in the hand and how it cut lighting

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2016)

Bonly said:


> I looked and I don't see either of them with Raiton in their DB entry, closest to it would be it mentioning that it's chakra in the hand and how it cut lighting


Both Chidori and Raikiri are listed as raiton-based ninjutsu based on the manga and the databook. Feel free to post the databook entry you are speaking about, I've read Kakashi, Sasuke and the jutsu page where it is mentioned.

Refer to the most recent databook for clarification.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 7, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'm not talking about the wikipedia entry that you just edited, the real databook doesn't have it listed as a raiton jutsu.


The wiki sometimes takes its info straight from the DB.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Body Pathway Derangement (乱身衝, Ranshinshou)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Tsunade

Disturbing body control by severing the pathways of [brain←→body] information flow!!

[pictures of Kabuto discovery his loss of body control]
↑One's own body moves in any way, except how one wants it to move...!? For the common shinobi, battle, not to mention even just walking, will become impossible

An attack that severs the control threads with a flash of lightning

[picture of Tsunade hitting Kabuto with this technique]
↑As soon as strike of the hand lands, electricity is poured into the enemy's nervous system, severing the signals!!

*By transforming the chakra within one's body and giving it the properties of electricity, one creates an electric field.* By pouring this into the nervous system of one's opponent, one deranges their body control! An extremely high-level technique, used as a medical ninjutsu. The human body is controlled with electrical signals from the brain, but a person who had those electrical signals cut off with this technique will become unable to make their body move as they want. Because she's an expert in medical treatments, Tsunade was able to master this technique.[/spoiler.]





> It's like controlling a rock without Doton. But it clearly says in the manga and databook that she converts her chakra into an electric field, and the basis of elemental jutsus is converting your chakra into an element.


 Though it may not be classified as Raiton since the technique is part of her medical ninjutsu, the fact is Databook & Manga tell us she manipulates lightning.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2016)

What's stopping 8-10% Katsuya from coming out?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 7, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> What's stopping 8-10% Katsuya from coming out?


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2016)

Sad that I read this whole thread and nobody brought that up. Should we just not include a characters full arsenal when the OP specifes 0 restrictions?  I mean shit, what counter does Deidara have for Juubi sized Katsuyu? He ain't dodging bjuii sized acid blasts indefinitely. Especially once multiplication is factored in.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 7, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Sad that I read this whole thread and nobody brought that up. Should we just not include a characters full arsenal when the OP specifes 0 restrictions?  I mean shit, what counter does Deidara have for Juubi sized Katsuyu? He ain't dodging bjuii sized acid blasts indefinitely. Especially once multiplication is factored in.


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## Android (Jul 7, 2016)

OMG ! 

But srsly , why is this discussion still on ? 
Sai blitzed Deidara and one-shotted him IIRC , but Tsuna-Sama can't ? 
Inb4 people start saying Edo Deidara was not at full power and he was a fodder bla bla bla 
He can use C1 (as he did with Shin for example), he can use C4 (as he was going to use against Onoki)
and he can use C0 (as he was planning to do) 

And he return with his full power + regeneration and unlimited chakra, no? 



People need to realize that Deidara was only powerful at the time he was relevant at. As the story continued, the characters surpassed him 
or characters who are already stronger than him appeared. It's that simple, and it's not only applied to Deidara btw, but rather to many characters as well 

That's happen in all stories.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Sai blitzed Deidara and one-shotted him IIRC , but Tsuna-Sama can't ?



Sai didn't one shot him, there's a reason why Kankuro and Omoi helped stopped Deidara as Sai can't do it one his own and Deidara+Sasori weren't shown to have taken any damage or Regen so his hit didn't do much.


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## Jad (Jul 7, 2016)

I completely forgot that Sai blitzed Sasori and Deidara....why doesn't that come up more?


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## Android (Jul 8, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Sai didn't one shot him, there's a reason why Kankuro and Omoi helped stopped Deidara as Sai can't do it one his own and Deidara+Sasori weren't shown to have taken any damage or Regen so his hit didn't do much.


Doesn't change the fact that he blitzed him , Tsunade was able to lift Gamabunta's giant sword , and jump high in the air and hit Manda on his head , and with katsuyu's help , not really sure how she can't hit him and crack his head open .


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## Bonly (Jul 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Doesn't change the fact that he blitzed him ,



When it's plot powered people tend to not pay to much attention to it



> Tsunade was able to lift Gamabunta's giant sword , and jump high in the air and hit Manda on his head , and with katsuyu's help , not really sure how she can't hit him and crack his head open .



Deidara has better mobility in the air as oppose to Tsunade who can only do linear jumping even if it is just jumping really high

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Yeah he said the Sasuke in front of him wasn't an illusion and was confused.
> 
> Deidara was looking right at Sasuke the moment he popped out of the C4 clone which gave Sasuke time to put Deidara in a genjutsu before Deidara went to detonate C4.
> 
> ...



Deidara's left eye is trained to counter ilusionary techniques. He was looking at Sasuke all time with his left eye and would've known if it was an ilusion. 

Then again, i don't see yet how everything here goes around with the way Kishimoto ilustrated and explained the technique (by the mouth of it's creator). Using the genjutsu argument is not the best if we base it with "lack of evidence" (ilustration itself is evidence if we have no other thing to back that up) when i can say C4 destroys the body instantly in an explosion and not gradually and the way it disintegrated Sasuke is a lie because it was genjutsu.

Of course, i'd change my mind if you bring me C4 being slower than what it was ilustrated .


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## Parallaxis (Jul 8, 2016)

lol Hebi Sasuke > Tsunade? 
kill me


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## Bonly (Jul 8, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Deidara's left eye is trained to counter ilusionary techniques. He was looking at Sasuke all time with his left eye and would've known if it was an ilusion
> 
> Then again, i don't see yet how everything here goes around with the way Kishimoto ilustrated and explained the technique (by the mouth of it's creator). Using the genjutsu argument is not the best if we base it with "lack of evidence" (ilustration itself is evidence if we have no other thing to back that up) when i can say C4 destroys the body instantly in an explosion and not gradually and the way it disintegrated Sasuke is a lie because it was genjutsu.
> 
> Of course, i'd change my mind if you bring me C4 being slower than what it was ilustrated .



Apparently not since he saw a snake disintegrate which didn't happen.

And yet I'm sure you'll go around the way Kishi illustrated Itachi being invincible by giving him two weapons hyped to be one(if not) the best for offense and defense as well as having Kaguya's will(you know the guy who's been around long enough to see Hashi vs Madara fight at VoTE) call him invincible with said items but yeah the guy who's jutsu has only been used in a genjutsu gets a pass and nothing can seem fishy about Sasuke who never seen the jutsu happens to get the timing perfectly right the first around.


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## Empathy (Jul 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> OMG !
> 
> But srsly , why is this discussion still on ?
> Sai blitzed Deidara and one-shotted him IIRC , but Tsuna-Sama can't ?
> ...



Can you prove that Tsunade's faster than Sai?



Jad said:


> I completely forgot that Sai blitzed Sasori and Deidara....why doesn't that come up more?



Sai's enraged attack was just fast (faster than Sasuke's _shunshin _and base Gai).


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## Android (Jul 8, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Can you prove that Tsunade's faster than Sai?


She has 3.5 in speed , Sai has what ? 
She is faster than what people give her creddit for , as shown against Madara .


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## Itachі (Jul 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> She has 3.5 in speed , Sai has what ?
> She is faster than what people give her creddit for , as shown against Madara .



Sai also has a 3.5.


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## Bonly (Jul 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> She has 3.5 in speed , Sai has what ?
> She is faster than what people give her creddit for , as shown against Madara .



Sai also has a 3.5 in speed

Edit: Darn I have been speed blitzed

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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 8, 2016)

LostSelf said:
			
		

> Based on panel time. We've seen Byakugo healing some type of wounds. And the only time we saw it healing a huge wound, the user collapsed. Said damage was far, but far inferior to the one C4 would make.



But it isn't inferior. Tsunade healed those giant holes _after_ they appeared. With C4 she'd be healing _while_ bombs are still exploding inside of her, so her body would never get to that level of disrepair. 



> In this case, we can count panels, i think. Tsunade's byakugo has taken more panel time to heal something than C4. But i agree not even panel time is accurate.
> 
> However, based on showings, C4, by the time Sasuke looked at his hands, he was already gone, wich should've taken a lot less than the stab wound Byakugo healed considering that Sasuke would've been looking what was happening to him desperately. And now let's add the superhuman movement thing and C4 looks terrorific.



I see no drastic difference in Byakugou's regeneration speed and C4's destruction speed. If you say there is one, I simply cannot see it. Tsunade heals a giant hole in her torso in the time it took her to swing a blade at Madara and then be hit by a Magatama. Sasuke has a giant hole put into his body in a similar amount of time. Even if I was to give C4  the benefit of the doubt, and say that it attacks slightly faster than Byakugou, the damage it inflicts would still be significantly reduced, and she could regenerate the remainder of the damage once the bombs have stopped exploding.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Empathy (Jul 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> She has 3.5 in speed , Sai has what ?
> She is faster than what people give her creddit for , as shown against Madara .



And Deidara has a 4.5 in speed. I never said that Tsunade was slow, just that she's slower than Sai's blitz.


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## drew8324 (Jul 9, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And couldn't she just swat him out of the sky like a fly using Katsuyu? Just how fast is Deidara's Clay Bird anyway?
> If she made Jinton from this
> 
> Into this
> ...


@IzayaOrihara Such a well thought post with such advice dedication. I support you and you have swayed my opinion.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> What's stopping 8-10% Katsuya from coming out?


C4 deads her, she might be invincible on the outside but gets carved up once she breathes C4 in.


HandfullofNaruto said:


> The wiki sometimes takes its info straight from the DB.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I'm not sure where you got that from and the body isn't controlled by electrical signals, it's controlled by chemical signals. The nerves have synaptic clefts and synapses, however, these are mediated by chemicals and ions together not just rampant electricity (at least in the sense you are implying).

The jutsu itself is not listed as a raiton jutsu for a reason, it doesn't fit the requirement for an elemental ninjutsu.

However, none of this changes the fact that Tsunade would lose to either multiple bombardments of C2 or a massive C3 without Katusuyu on the floor. If that happens, Deidara still wins with C4 because what you can't see, you can't defend


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## LostSelf (Jul 9, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Apparently not since he saw a snake disintegrate which didn't happen.
> 
> And yet I'm sure you'll go around the way Kishi illustrated Itachi being invincible by giving him two weapons hyped to be one(if not) the best for offense and defense as well as having Kaguya's will(you know the guy who's been around long enough to see Hashi vs Madara fight at VoTE) call him invincible with said items but yeah the guy who's jutsu has only been used in a genjutsu gets a pass and nothing can seem fishy about Sasuke who never seen the jutsu happens to get the timing perfectly right the first around.



Or the snake wings were disintegrating.

Except that Itachi has shown to not be invincible. You haven't shown me why Deidara's knowledge on the jutsu's speed is wrong.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> But it isn't inferior. Tsunade healed those giant holes _after_ they appeared. With C4 she'd be healing _while_ bombs are still exploding inside of her, so her body would never get to that level of disrepair.



I never said it was inferior. I said C4 was faster. It won't disintegrate completely her because she will be regenerating. But damage will still be done. I explain myself: By the time Byakugo regenerates an arm, C4 would already be disintegrating her torso, or more. yet, her torso will be healed, but not at C4's speed, imo.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I see no drastic difference in Byakugou's regeneration speed and C4's destruction speed. If you say there is one, I simply cannot see it. Tsunade heals a giant hole in her torso in the time it took her to swing a blade at Madara and then be hit by a Magatama. Sasuke has a giant hole put into his body in a similar amount of time. Even if I was to give C4 the benefit of the doubt, and say that it attacks slightly faster than Byakugou, the damage it inflicts would still be significantly reduced, and she could regenerate the remainder of the damage once the bombs have stopped exploding.



I do. Tsunade's wound in her torso was still healing by the time all that scenario happened.

Sasuke couldn't reach Deidara in time before C4 disintegrated him, in a relatively short distance and flying at high speeds. If we consider that Sasuke's faster than Tsunade is able to do so faster than all the amazing stuff Tsunade did, yet, hs body, wich is far bigger than the hole in her torso was going to be erased before he could catch Deidara, then C4 should be notably faster.

I agree she will regen the damage once the bombs stops exploding. But that's something she's not shrugging off. Two Susano'o blades forced her to collapse and have troubles standing up several pages after. That's not a position one wants to be against an aerial bomber. Not to mention the huge amount of chakra it would take to regen that much.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 9, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'm not sure where you got that from and the body isn't controlled by electrical signals, it's controlled by chemical signals. The nerves have synaptic clefts and synapses, however, these are mediated by chemicals and ions together not just rampant electricity (at least in the sense you are implying).


What exactly is the purpose in your pseudo-academic dribble? Are you trying to imply Rashinsho doesn't work the way that the Databook says it does because, fuck it science says otherwise. I'm pretty sure there's little room for the chakra veins when discussing the science of this. I never said the body is controlled by electrical signals.



> The jutsu itself is not listed as a raiton jutsu for a reason, it doesn't fit the requirement for an elemental ninjutsu.


 Rashinsho doesn't fit the requirements for an elemental jutsu because it's used as medical ninjutsu. It's like controlling a rock without Doton. But it clearly says in the manga and databook that she converts her chakra into an electric field, and the basis of elemental jutsus is converting your chakra into an element. That's just obvious. 



> However, none of this changes the fact that Tsunade would lose to either multiple bombardments of C2 or a massive C3 without Katusuyu on the floor. If that happens, Deidara still wins with C4 because what you can't see, you can't defend

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 9, 2016)

Promise me that you will never leave us

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 9, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Or the snake wings were disintegrating.
> 
> Except that Itachi has shown to not be invincible. You haven't shown me why Deidara's knowledge on the jutsu's speed is wrong.
> 
> ...



Deidara only uses C4 as a last resort, and he only has so much clay prepared. When Tsunade survives C4, he may not even have enough left to put up a strong offence. Even if Tsunade does temporarily succumb to her injuries, she' still capable of having Katsuyu protect her in the interim. At that point, anything Deidara does is merely delaying his death.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 9, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Promise me that you will never leave us

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 10, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> What exactly is the purpose in your pseudo-academic dribble? Are you trying to imply Rashinsho doesn't work the way that the Databook says it does because, fuck it science says otherwise. I'm pretty sure there's little room for the chakra veins when discussing the science of this. I never said the body is controlled by electrical signals.
> 
> Rashinsho doesn't fit the requirements for an elemental jutsu because it's used as medical ninjutsu. It's like controlling a rock without Doton. But it clearly says in the manga and databook that she converts her chakra into an electric field, and the basis of elemental jutsus is converting your chakra into an element. That's just obvious.


The point is it's not a lightning-based jutsu and it's not something she can use to disrupt Deidara's bombs. The best she can do to win this fight is if she's lucky enough to hit him before he goes airborne, that's about it.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 10, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> The point is it's not a lightning-based jutsu and it's not something she can use to disrupt Deidara's bombs. The best she can do to win this fight is if she's lucky enough to hit him before he goes airborne, that's about it.


 I'm not going to start the debate over with you. It's all been addressed.  Good day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Jul 10, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Can you prove that Tsunade's faster than Sai?
> 
> 
> 
> Sai's enraged attack was just fast (faster than Sasuke's _shunshin _and base Gai).


I find it very hard to believe Sai in any state being faster then near EOS Gai despite every form of literature, manga, databook, novel (Kakashi Hiden) not only saying the opposite but boast about Gai's speed


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## Empathy (Jul 10, 2016)

Sai blitzed Deidara and base Gai couldn't. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.


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## Jad (Jul 10, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Sai blitzed Deidara and base Gai couldn't. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.


Oh yeah for sure. Very obvious to you. Let's just disregard just about every portrayl on Gai's base speed. It's not like Kishimoto had Gai do anything at all against Deidara. He wasn't even shown on panel engaging for WHATEVER reason.  That was Kishi's decision to leave Gai out of panel. Sure you will pull your punches with its out of character for Gai not to do so and so. But remove yourself from those two pages you are stuck on and look at the more obvious bigger picture. That Gai is portrayed as faster then Sai in whatever emotional mood he is, and Deidara. Look at the author's intent. No, I can't do it again Empathy. Not with you.


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## Itachі (Jul 10, 2016)

Jad said:


> Oh yeah for sure. Very obvious to you. Let's just disregard just about every portrayl on Gai's base speed. It's not like Kishimoto had Gai do anything at all against Deidara. He wasn't even shown on panel engaging for WHATEVER reason.  That was Kishi's decision to leave Gai out of panel. Sure you will pull your punches with its out of character for Gai not to do so and so. But remove yourself from those two pages you are stuck on and look at the more obvious bigger picture. That Gai is portrayed as faster then Sai in whatever emotional mood he is, and Deidara. Look at the author's intent. No, I can't do it again Empathy. Not with you.





i love it when jad starts getting into the good stuff


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## Empathy (Jul 11, 2016)

Jad said:


> Oh yeah for sure. Very obvious to you. Let's just disregard just about every portrayl on Gai's base speed. It's not like Kishimoto had Gai do anything at all against Deidara. He wasn't even shown on panel engaging for WHATEVER reason.  That was Kishi's decision to leave Gai out of panel. Sure you will pull your punches with its out of character for Gai not to do so and so. But remove yourself from those two pages you are stuck on and look at the more obvious bigger picture. That Gai is portrayed as faster then Sai in whatever emotional mood he is, and Deidara. Look at the author's intent. No, I can't do it again Empathy. Not with you.



I don't know what you're talking about; he clearly showed Gai and armless Deidara clashing. You're blabbering about author intent and portrayal, as if it were somebody else who drew armless Deidara bunshin feinting Team Gai starting from a few feet away, or drew Sai doing something that Gai clearly could not do (in base). I'm aware that Gai's both shown and portrayed as fast; I never tried to say the opposite, and Gai being a fast character is why I brought him up. Out of all those canon sources you brought up, how many specifically mention Gai when isolated to base, and instead couldn't refer to gated Gai? And out of the ones that undoubtedly are referring to base Gai, how can they be used to make a direct comparison to being superior to Sai? As far as I can tell, they've only fought one same opponent with which their respective performances can be measured against each other: Deidara. Sai fared significantly better than base Gai, despite Deidara not being grounded and armless.

There's only one simple conclusion you can draw from that. Why exactly is Gai's base speed significantly faster than Sasuke's _shunshin no jutsu, _Gaara's sand, or lightened Onoki? He was repeatedly, easily brushed off by base Kisame, so why would he have been able to blitz Deidara and Sasori in base, in the air? The notion that base Gai could've flickered behind flying Deidara and Sasori and then dynamic entry'd them into Kankuro's puppets in Sai's stead is not one I agree with, especially when it's the same guy who was going to be killed by armless Deidara with no clay. Gai is Gai and the manga calls him fast while Sai is Sai is not an argument. Show me a direct comparison of Gai doing something fast that Sai's proven unable to do, like I did to show the opposite.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Jad (Jul 11, 2016)

I'll bite. Empathy you shall incur my wrath for doubting Gai's base speed being lesser to Sai's one time showing. I won't post until few hours. However can someone who has seen it, link me (pm) my Base Gai speed post I've made otherwise I'll look after. By the way Empathy, you've seen it before and every comment and dialogue has been about base Gai.

Kishimito literally could not sell how fast Base Gai is at a higher price.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2016)

@Ryuzaki 

10% Katsuya would most likely kill Deidara before he preps C4. If the slug doesn't then lets factor in the fact that the AoE of C4 is smaller than Katsuyu, and unless Tzuande is .01m away from C4, then Katsuyu's sheer size, multiplication ability, and impressive durability  will give Tsunade the time time gap to escape C4.


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## Empathy (Jul 11, 2016)

Jad said:


> I'll bite. Empathy you shall incur my wrath for doubting Gai's base speed being lesser to Sai's one time showing. I won't post until few hours. However can someone who has seen it, link me (pm) my Base Gai speed post I've made otherwise I'll look after. By the way Empathy, you've seen it before and every comment and dialogue has been about base Gai.
> 
> Kishimito literally could not sell how fast Base Gai is at a higher price.



What use is a feat/hype compilation? They fought the same opponent and Sai did objectively better speed-wise. That's all there is to it. There's not a chance base Gai could've blitzed flying Deidara and Sasori and kicked them into puppets.


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## Jad (Jul 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> What use is a feat/hype compilation? They fought the same opponent and Sai did objectively better speed-wise. That's all there is to it. There's not a chance base Gai could've blitzed flying Deidara and Sasori and kicked them into puppets.


I haven't properly replied yet. But show me where Kishimoto illustrated Gai actively engaging Deidara in combat.

Honestly Empathy. You wouldn't say Gai was capable of Sai's feat (which included drawing 3 images whilst his bird flew him behind them) if he had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Gates open already....

Which beautifully illustrates your attitude.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Ryuzaki
> 
> 10% Katsuya would most likely kill Deidara before he preps C4. If the slug doesn't then lets factor in the fact that the AoE of C4 is smaller than Katsuyu, and unless Tzuande is .01m away from C4, then Katsuyu's sheer size, multiplication ability, and impressive durability  will give Tsunade the time time gap to escape C4.


Deidara will use his bombs before Tsunade uses Katsuyu, if Tsunade for some reason uses Katsuyu to defend herself, then Deidara will resort to C3 and eventually using C4. All of this will happen while Deidara is in the air where Tsunade cannot reach him and they will all disintegrate together.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Jul 11, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Deidara will use his bombs before Tsunade uses Katsuyu, if Tsunade for some reason uses Katsuyu to defend herself, then Deidara will resort to C3 and eventually using C4. All of this will happen while Deidara is in the air where Tsunade cannot reach him and they will all disintegrate together.



Why wouldn't Tsunade summon Deidara with Manga knowledge of his fighting style?  Honestly, none of his explosion techniques bar C3 or C4 would do shit to Tzuande without Katsuyu, and the slug is definitely coming out before those techs do.

C4 literally has to catch the target in its AoE before it starts microboming it. 10% Katsuyu is damn near Juubi sized, it's AoE is entirely too small and unless Tsunade is right next to C4 when it's starts disintegrating Katsuyu, then she has time to escape.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why wouldn't Tsunade summon Deidara with Manga knowledge of his fighting style?  Honestly, none of his explosion techniques bar C3 or C4 would do shit to Tzuande without Katsuyu, and the slug is definitely coming out before those techs do.
> 
> C4 literally has to catch the target in its AoE before it starts microboming it. *10% Katsuyu is damn near Juubi sized*, it's AoE is entirely too small and unless Tsunade is right next to C4 when it's starts disintegrating Katsuyu, then she has time to escape.


It probably would've been an awesome idea to summon Katsuyu when she was fighting 5 different Susano'os but she didn't. Tsunade's not that bright when it comes to fighting, so I wouldn't put my hopes on her summoning Katsuyu right off the bat. And FYI, she had prior knowledge about Madara before going to battle but she thought it'd be wise not to summon Katsuyu.

C2 guided explosions would catch her each time and 1-2 of those would decimate her, it would force her to use her jutsu to heal herself. She's no where near close enough to match Hebi Sasuke in speed or agility so she'll be getting hit by nearly all of them. It's one thing if she was durable enough to tank the hit, but she will get hit, have to repair the damage before the next one is launched. Given how it dismembered Sasuke's CS2 wing after just 2 hits, I don't see how Tsunade survives without Katsuyu on the floor. 

C4 kills both Tsunade/Katsuyu.

10% is not Juubi sized, not that it matters because she cannot summon 10% Katsuyu by herself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 11, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why wouldn't Tsunade summon Deidara with Manga knowledge of his fighting style?  Honestly, none of his explosion techniques bar C3 or C4 would do shit to Tzuande without Katsuyu, and the slug is definitely coming out before those techs do.
> 
> C4 literally has to catch the target in its AoE before it starts microboming it. 10% Katsuyu is damn near Juubi sized, it's AoE is entirely too small and unless Tsunade is right next to C4 when it's starts disintegrating Katsuyu, then she has time to escape.


Id also like to mention the fact that C0 Deidaras strongest technique and by far the most violent explosion, was tanked by Manda who's far less durable than Katsuyu, the slug that saved a bunch of ninja from the devastation CST brought. C3 isn't going to destroy Katsuyu and C4 would take only a small portion of the giant slug.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Id also like to mention the fact that C0 Deidaras strongest technique and by far the most violent explosion, was tanked by Manda who's far less durable than Katsuyu, the slug that saved a bunch of ninja from the devastation CST brought. C3 isn't going to destroy Katsuyu and C4 would take only a small portion of the giant slug.


You realize Manda died? 

He didn't tank anything, if they had stayed they would have been wiped out.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 11, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You realize Manda died? He didn't tank anything, if they had stayed they would have been wiped out.


 To me it, it looks like Sasuke summoned Manda, used Genjutsu and survived the devastating C0.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 12, 2016)

So Manda didn't tank it, he died.

Thanks for clearing that up.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 12, 2016)

Also do you remember how the fight with Madara & the Kage ended? The last we saw, Katsuyu was healing all five kage using Tsunades strength. So Katsuyu _was_ summoned against Madara and for all we know, she could have been the one to end the battle.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 12, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> So Manda didn't tank it, he died. Thanks for clearing that up.


lol. When I say tank, I mean that his summoner (Sasuke) survived. Manda tanked C0 (for Sasuke).

Edit: Sorry if my phrasing threw you off.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Also do you remember how the fight with Madara & the Kage ended? The last we saw, Katsuyu was healing all five kage using Tsunades strength. So Katsuyu _was_ summoned against Madara and for all we know, she could have been the one to end the battle.


Tsunade summoned Katsuyu after she was split in 2, she was not there before.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> lol. When I say tank, I mean that his summoner (Sasuke) survived. Manda tanked C0 (for Sasuke).
> 
> Edit: Sorry if my phrasing threw you off.


If she does that and Deidara sees her surviving the C3, he'll just switch to C4 and he won't need to use C0.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Creative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 12, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade summoned Katsuyu after she was split in 2, she was not there before.


 Where exactly is that specified? 



> If she does that and Deidara sees her surviving the C3, he'll just switch to C4 and he won't need to use C0.


 Katsuyu could tank C3 (and possibly live considering she's an actual tanking type (changed my definition of tanking to yours) so she should survive C3.) C4 could only take a portion of Katsuyu. With Tsunade at her center building up chakra, she could definitely survive the attack. 

Question: Did Deidara use C4 twice? I don't want to go searching through the manga rn. I'm pretty sure he did though.. right?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Veracity (Jul 12, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It probably would've been an awesome idea to summon Katsuyu when she was fighting 5 different Susano'os but she didn't. Tsunade's not that bright when it comes to fighting, so I wouldn't put my hopes on her summoning Katsuyu right off the bat. And FYI, she had prior knowledge about Madara before going to battle but she thought it'd be wise not to summon Katsuyu.
> 
> C2 guided explosions would catch her each time and 1-2 of those would decimate her, it would force her to use her jutsu to heal herself. She's no where near close enough to match Hebi Sasuke in speed or agility so she'll be getting hit by nearly all of them. It's one thing if she was durable enough to tank the hit, but she will get hit, have to repair the damage before the next one is launched. Given how it dismembered Sasuke's CS2 wing after just 2 hits, I don't see how Tsunade survives without Katsuyu on the floor.
> 
> ...


Katsuyu is a lot less effective against Edo Madara( infinite Chakra and hyper regen) then it is against Deidara; the very fact that Katsuyu is her only means of ranged attacks should pretty much settle that. Tsuande was also backed by 4 Kage level teammates, so summoning Katsuyu wasn't a necessity.  Tsunade has a 5 in intelligence backed by the fact that she's known as the Slug princess, and has more knowledge on range attack orientated Deidara then he has on her. Why the hell wouldn't she use Katsuyu?

What speed feats do Cs2 Guided explosives have to suggest that Tsuande would have any problems outright evading them or using Katsuyu as meatshields. I mean she did match Onoki's flying speed with Byakago active, and IIRC, Onoki can match Deidara's flight speed. Evasion expert Tsuande shouldn't have problems avoiding CS2 level attacks...neither would any Sannin level character for that matter.

To Add, what offensive output feats does CS2 have to suggest it heavily supercedes the power of Madara's Yasaka Magamata which couldn't even breach Tsuande's skin? Couple that with Katsuyu and nigh instant regen, and that shits child's play.

Sasuke was like a couple of inches away from blitzing the shit out of Deidara, she doesn't need to be that quick to be effective here. I mean Deidara has a reputation of underestimating his opponents; hence the fact that his ass was blitzed by Sai lmao. Since we're on the topic of soeed, what makes Sai not just on the speed level of Byakago Tsunade, but far surpassing it??

10% Katsuyu is damn near Juubi sized, and I'm sure you've seen the comparison panels between the slug and the massive God Tree....But if you honestly are doubtful of that fact, then I will include panels.

Tsuande without her seal restored can summon 5% Katsuyu.. She needs Sakura to not only summon the other half, but also heal tens of thousands of shinobi. Grant Tsuande a fully restored seal, and negate the ya know.. healing of an entire army, and Tsuande should easily be able to summon 10% Katsuyu. Or at least 8 or 9%.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Empathy (Jul 12, 2016)

Jad said:


> I haven't properly replied yet. But show me where Kishimoto illustrated Gai actively engaging Deidara in combat.



When they confront Deidara, Gai is the closest one to him in the middle, with Lee and Neji to his right and left, and Tenten furthest in the back. [1] Two figures then clash, one obviously being Deidara, while two other figures are seen to the right and left in close pursuit. Tenten is seen throwing projectiles from afar. [2]



The red circles are mostly likely Neji and Lee, while the two figures clashing in front are Deidara and Gai. Gai started closest to Deidara, with Neji and Lee behind him to his left and right and he's faster than Neji and Lee, maxing out with a 5 in speed to their respective 4.5s; it'd stand to reason that he'd be the only one fast enough to catch up to Deidara, who had a head-start of a couple feet. Neji and Lee started the pursuit on the left and right of Gai, and are likely the two figures who are trailing behind still to the left and right. Not only that, Gai started in the middle and was the closest one to Deidara, and he finished the chase still in the middle, in front of Neji and Lee.





The only alternative is that Gai is one of the two figures trailing behind on the left or right, while Deidara clashed with either Neji or Lee, which really only makes Gai look even worse if he couldn't catch-up to Deidara, despite starting closest to him. There really is no evidence supporting that it could've been Neji or Lee (Gai started in the middle, the clash happened in the middle, and he finished in the middle), so assuming so would only be conjecture. Neji and Lee started behind Gai, they were trailing behind Gai, and they finished behind Gai. Even if it somehow was Lee/Neji that Deidara clashed with, while Gai fell behind, despite no evidence supporting this, Deidara still fended off and eluded Team Gai and was going to kill them.



> Honestly Empathy. You wouldn't say Gai was capable of Sai's feat (which included drawing 3 images whilst his bird flew him behind them) if he had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Gates open already....
> 
> Which beautifully illustrates your attitude.



My attitude that Gai gets faster with gates? I wasn't aware that was such a divisive attitude to have. Throughout my posts in this thread, I repeatedly made the distinction that I'm only talking about base Gai and not gated Gai. I never tried to claim that Sai's faster than gated Gai, because there is no evidence supporting it. Base Gai is still a fast character though, who is one of only two characters to max out with a 5 in speed, so it's a testament to Deidara's speed that he could evade him, and it means that Sai was just incredibly fast to blitz Deidara, instead of Deidara being incredibly slow to get blitzed by Sai (because not even Sasuke or base Gai could blitz Deidara). Edo Deidara was purposefully flying at low heights so that anybody could easily reach him just by jumping, and he remarked that he had no intention of attempting to dodge any attacks (because he'd just regenerate). In regular fight with living Deidara, I think he'd fly at great enough altitude where Gai would have to travel some distance in order to reach him, and it'd prevent Gai from blitzing him in the air—or Deidara will have ended the fight prematurely before it can come to that.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 13, 2016)

In relation to this Sai/Gai debate, I have a few things I'd like to add:

Databook statistics are vague. Gai has a 5 in speed and Sai a 3.5, but their stats don't make it clear what type of speed they actually represent. Movement speed? Reflexes? A combination? Is Shunshin speed included, despite being a ninjutsu? Is attack speed the same as foot speed? None of this is made clear. Furthermore, what needs to kept in mind is that characters are almost never moving consistently at their top speeds. As Sasuke showed in Part I, it is exhausting to do that in battle. In that case, is the databook speed stat a representation of their top speed, or just an average?

I personally think what is represented in the stats varies among characters. But it's very difficult to assess what is specifically represented in each character's case, and so we can only draw general assumptions.

In Gai's case, I doubt he was moving at his top speed when he attacked Deidara. He'd just finished a rather exhausting battle with himself, and he wasn't bloodlusted or anything. If he'd gone full speed, Deidara would surely have had more difficulty in keeping up (though, he may still have reacted anyway because of his 4.5), especially since he had two other fast opponents attacking him. In Sai's case, he was clearly bloodlusted:

[2]

And so he was probably moving faster than usual. 

The second point I'd like to make is that it was Sai's technique which blitzed Deidara and Sasori, and not Sai himself. Even then, the technique accomplished such a feat because it attacked from behind where they couldn't see. And I think part of the reason they were blitzed is because they underestimated Sai: they had yet to see him draw anything, and they didn't realise that his ink creations could come to life. There was a great element of the surprise factor behind Sai's feat.

Gai > Sai in speed, but the latter was moving at his top speed, and used the element of surprise. The former was attacking head-on in tandem with slower allies, and was not moving at his top speed, imo.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 14, 2016)

drew8324 said:


> @IzayaOrihara Such a well thought post with such advice dedication. I support you and you have swayed my opinion.


Ah! Is that an open-minded person? I thought they were extinct like the Saiyans lol. All killed off by a supernova planet buster fired from wankers and fanboys.

Anyway, thanks. It means a lot, really.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> To me it, it looks like Sasuke summoned Manda, used Genjutsu and survived the devastating C0.


Exactly. But people say "Manda only tanked the initial blast" as if an explosion lasts as long as a wildfire. Such a stupid thing to say, but hey, people hate Orochimaru, so what can you expect?


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Exactly. But people say "Manda only tanked the initial blast" as if an explosion lasts as long as a wildfire. Such a stupid thing to say, but hey, people hate Orochimaru, so what can you expect?


FYI, there are portions/phases to an explosion.


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## SupremeKage (Jul 14, 2016)

Bonly said:


> No it's a fact. We saw someone like Omoi who outright said that he knows a little Raiton and he managed to stop Deidara's from using C0, his strongest attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In omoi's case, Deidara was trapped. And with Sasuke, I think he flew to deidara using CS2 then used  chidori (ration).

I doubt Tsunade would easily get to Deidara, especially at her speed. He could also throw some bombs at her in the meantime while she is trying to reach him.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 14, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> FYI, there are portions/phases to an explosion.


 Yes, and they all happen within a very short amount of time.


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## Bonly (Jul 14, 2016)

SupremeKage said:


> In omoi's case, Deidara was trapped. And with Sasuke, I think he flew to deidara using CS2 then used  chidori (ration).
> 
> I doubt Tsunade would easily get to Deidara, especially at her speed. He could also throw some bombs at her in the meantime while she is trying to reach him.



That doesn't matter to the point I was making, Jay2016 said that she's not high lvl with Raiton therefore her Raitons would do nothing thus me pointing out Omoi shows that one doesn't have to be at a high lvl in Raiton in order to deactivate Deidara's bombs meaning that if Tsunade did use a Raiton and it made contact with his clay then his clay won't work, nothing more, nothing less.

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## drew8324 (Jul 15, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Ah! Is that an open-minded person? I thought they were extinct like the Saiyans lol. All killed off by a supernova planet buster fired from wankers and fanboys.
> 
> Anyway, thanks. It means a lot, really.


No prob

Reactions: Like 1


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## TruestArtXI (Aug 26, 2016)

That was a nasty thread Deidara Kills Her With C4 period.

Reactions: Funny 3


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