# Akainu vs Big Mom



## Luffy (Feb 4, 2022)

Location: Rooftop
Blood lusted

No restrictions

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu will be stronger.

This is just a fact.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2022)

Misclicked in the poll. Always thought Akainu was stronger even if marginally. BM showing limited regeneration doesn't help vs Akainu's offense.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Does PIS apply? Because I assume LinLin would be allowed  to use AdCoC in this fight right?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> Does PIS apply? Because I assume LinLin would be allowed  to use AdCoC in this fight right?


It was stated in last week's Weekly Shōnen Jump that Law & Kidd vs Big Mom were _" going all-out against each other". _


It's an undeniable fact that she was in fact using AdCoC against them, the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Corax (Feb 4, 2022)

If Bull can break her bones and force her to use regeneration?Well this is  foregone conclusion. No way Akainu's named lethal attacks won't be able to punch through her.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> It was stated in last week's Weekly Shōnen Jump that both Law & Kidd vs Big Mom were _" going all-out against each other"_


Even a blind stuck in a basement skunk can see that Big Mom did not use all her abilities. But sure buddy, she was going all out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> Even a blind stuck in a basement skunk can see that Big Mom did not use all her abilities. But sure buddy, she was going all out.


And even a brain-rottten donkey could comprehend that we didn't see all of her abilities because most of the fight was off-panelled. Prove she wasn't using AdCoC or concede.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Pyriz (Feb 4, 2022)

Going with Big Mom just because I haven't seen enough from Akainu. That said I have a feeling they're close enough that it could go either way, assuming Akainu is a step up from the other admirals.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Feb 4, 2022)

BM easily.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Ayy lmao said:


> And even a brain-rottten donkey could comprehend that we didn't see most of her abilities because most of the fight was off-panelled. Prove she wasn't using AdCoC or concede.


So let me get this straight, you make a head cannon assumption that she used Adv CoC and then shift the burden of proof to me?  Lets just agree to disagree.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Garcher (Feb 4, 2022)

is this the new cope? that BM wasn't going all out?  After literally burning her lifetime in the battle that ended her era?

Reactions: Funny 9 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Dellinger (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu would also get destroyed by Law and Kid. He doesn’t have regen to survive Laws attacks nor is he as durable as Mom. Mom also pushed their shit in

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu high diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Mylesime (Feb 4, 2022)

Voted Big Mom because i can already feel the downplay.....
Law and Kid doing good VS Big Mom is to their credit, and only means they're top tiers now.
Not that Big Mom is trash, twisted spin.

Big Mom VS Aka Inu is high/extreme diff, no matter the choice.
Kid and Law would defeat any known top tier 2 vs 1 at this point.
They're strong. Simple.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Mickey Mouse (Feb 4, 2022)

Big Mom wins this fight without Oda's constant PIS bat beating her.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> So let me get this straight, you make a head cannon assumption that she used Adv CoC and then shift the burden of proof to me?  Lets just agree to disagree.


Nah, I'm going with what Oda said in the WSJ, that she went all out, (Aaaand Big Mom spending 1/30 of her lifespan, saying  "I'm all beat "+huffing a ton, the black lightning around her body, been shown to use CoC during the fight).

Oda's words>>>>> anything anybody said about a mostly off-panelled fight.  Burden of proof is on you to prove Oda is wrong about his own series.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

Linlin just tanked an attack that was enough to destroy MF and popoed back up in seconds. Sakazuki ate an attack that cracked a building and had to mud crawl his way out of the ground after multiple chapters. Linlin win's Low to mid high diff like always. Lower difficulty if she uses Bigger Mom mode.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 4, 2022)

Of course.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 4, 2022)

Unfair to Akainu, he has only shown Marineford level stuff so far and yet to fight post-skip. Based on current feats. Big Mom mid-diffs.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## Louis-954 (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> Even a blind stuck in a basement skunk can see that Big Mom did not use all her abilities. But sure buddy, she was going all out.


Luffy doesn't use "all of his abilities" every fight either. Is he not going all out?


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> Luffy doesn't use "all of his abilities" every fight either. Is he not going all out?


No he isn't?


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## MeUnderstandODA (Feb 4, 2022)

BM low diff

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Louis-954 (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> No he isn't?


Luffy, whose been defeated by Kaido like 2-3 times in this fight, whose used *every* advanced application *of all three types of haki* and *every single one of his Gears*, including *both* variations of G4 and stacking Gears 2 and 3 *ISN'T* going all out? 

That's what you're trying to tell me right now?  Just trying to make sure I understand, because you're argument is that Big Mom didn't go all out because she didn't use Advanced CoC.


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

If we’re being 100 BM didn’t use everything cause Oda wants to move on.

He just needed her to take the L and keep it pushing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> Luffy, whose been defeated by Kaido like 2-3 times in this fight, whose used *every* advanced application *of all three types of haki* and *every single one of his Gears*, including *both* variations of G4 and stacking Gears 2 and 3 *ISN'T* going all out? That's what you're trying to tell me right now?


I'm not sure we are getting each other. This is what you said: 


Louis-954 said:


> Luffy doesn't use "all of his abilities" *every fight *either. Is he not going all out?


Luffy clearly did not go all out against Ulti or ceasar or at the collesium or against Hody etc.


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## El Hit (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu low difs, a character with good haki or awakening would give him a better fight, like doffy or katakuri

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Louis-954 (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> I'm not sure we are getting each other. This is what you said:
> 
> Luffy clearly did not go all out against Ulti or ceasar or at the collesium or against Hody etc.


Are you really trying to equate Kid and Law to Ulti, Caesar and Hody?  Also, you're conveniently ignoring the context of those examples.

Against Hody, Luffy was underwater for a majority of the fight and also trying to protect Shirahoshi. His options were greatly limited.

Against Caesar (I'm going to assume you mean the first fight he lost), Luffy lacked an understanding of Caesar's ability. In the second and third bouts with Caesar, the gastanets and oxygen deprivation abilities were no longer and issue and G2/3 proved to be more than Caesar could handle. Therefore no reason to go all out.

Against Ulti, he said before running into her that he was trying to conserve his haki for Kaido, so it's self-explanatory why he didn't immediately opt to just end her with G4 + Advanced CoA.

Luffy's life was in no real danger against any of these opponents, so there was never a reason to go all out. Big Mom finds herself in a very different situation, this is most likely the toughest fight in her life.


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## God Movement (Feb 4, 2022)

Sakazuki is a more important villain in a later saga, thus, he is stronger

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dark Knight (Feb 4, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> Are you really trying to equate Kid and Law to Ulti, Caesar and Hody?  Also, you're conveniently ignoring the context of those examples.
> 
> Against Hody, Luffy was underwater for a majority of the fight and also trying to protect Shirahoshi. His options were greatly limited.
> 
> ...


 I'm not trying to equate anything. Of course context matters in every fight which is why I don't understand why you brought Luffy's fights into this.

Big mom is capable of using an ability that only a handful of the very strongest in the series can use. Yet for whatever reason be it PIS or CIS she refuses/chooses not to use it in what you yourself call "most likely the toughest fight in her life." How can I accept that she is going all out?


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## Samehadaman (Feb 4, 2022)

Have you guys ever read a shonnen? 

Are the Admirals still fodder to Yonko?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Adhominem (Feb 4, 2022)

I'm still not sure if Akainu actually got stronger from the Aokiji fight or not. Logically no, since they're both middle aged men already and both were badly wounded from the fight. But shonen wise he's a Fleet Admiral now and he probably powered up post/during the fight, probably.

I would say prime Akainu is probably going to be as strong as Kaido, so very marginally stronger than Big Mom. I don't know about right now and whether he's at his peak already, so I'd say that much only.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheMoffinMan (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu edges.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Feb 4, 2022)

I've always been an Admiral type of guy. And I really can't see Akainu, the big red dog losing this one. He magma's the hell out of her, her homies, her family, her cats and dogs, her ancestors, and the whole damn Cake Island.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Jake CENA (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu stomps mid diff using awakening

Big Meme loses automatically because she has no awakening

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## rext1 (Feb 4, 2022)

If BM legit has no Awakening...

She gets destroyed. Pirate King failure Linlin can't beat the man who could just stroll in on a whim and conquer Raftel in 12 months.

Reactions: Like 4 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu high diff.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Akainu high diff.


 I love you man but you make me do this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I love you man but you make me do this.



I held myself back from putting mid diff, you should be proud of me.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> I held myself back from putting mid diff, you should be proud of me.


The only thing getting mid diffed is your alertbox with Tier Specialists

Reactions: Funny 3 | Creative 1


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## Captain Quincy (Feb 4, 2022)

Current Akainu > BM > MF Akainu

Extreme diff fight. I'll admit it's speculation from me that current Akainu powered up since MF, but I think it's super likely since he's fleet admiral now.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

Nothing changed. Sakazuki beats her, probably with lower diff than I anticipated.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Useful 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Nothing changed. Sakazuki beats her, probably with lower diff than I anticipated.


Saw the name and knew I had to come and drop a TS.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Saw the name and knew I had to come and drop a TS.



Who cares, not like your TS means anything to me


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Who cares, not like your TS means anything to me


 I know I keep you up at night.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I know I keep you up at night.



I know I did everything right which you confirm with your reaction

Reactions: GODA 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

I think current Gamma Knife would 1 shot Sakazuki. Maybe even Injection shot too.   
The man was folded by an attack that can only crack buildings.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

Big Mom's arm was broken by a piece of scrap which can't even make a logia admiral tangible 

 

So much for highest durability in the series.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayy lmao (Feb 4, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> How can I accept that she is going all out?


Because Oda said so in WSJ. And idk, it looked very much to me like she was using it this chapter.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Big Mom's arm was broken by a piece of scrap which can't even make a logia admiral tangible
> 
> 
> 
> So much for highest durability in the series.



All admirals scale to one another.

Fujitora and presumably Greenbull had to be rushed to emergency care after getting beat like cheap rugs by characters who you are in the same prestige as the Babanuki, Holdem's and Opera's of the world. 

Someone like Kidd would make Sakazuki eat dirt. We've seen how weak his spine is from his showings in MF. Those pieces of scrap would one shot him the moment they're sprinkled with a bit of haki.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

The face of an Admiral peer.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Friendly 1


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## Geralt-Singh (Feb 4, 2022)

Mid diff

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

Geralt-Singh said:


> Mid diff


 

This guy begs to differ

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 4, 2022)



Reactions: Like 7 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Sherlōck (Feb 4, 2022)

This chapter changed nothing. 

The Terminator destroys Meme.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## mmzrmx (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu

It's just pretty standard shonen that he will be a monster that's comparable to the yonkous by the time he is fought(and BB will be even above that by the time he fights Luffy).  People thought that big meme will be luffy's solo Yonkou level battle(since Kaido was specifically referenced to have been weakening due to the constant battles) but it's probably going to be Akainu.

I guess there is an off chance that the degenerate Ace2 gets the win over Akainu but I don't see that happening.

I expect Akainu to be as strong as Kaido and possibly a little bit stronger by the time Luffy fights him. Big meme is strong but she's probably a little weaker than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Big Mom, as a Yonko, has significantly better hype, portrayal, and story relevance. Oda himself has stated that the manga was originally intended to be a story to fight against the Yonko that was primarily extended because of the addition of the Shichibukai. As a character Big Mom also performed significantly better on panel.

Akainu would never be able to endure this much internal damage. Especially not in conjunction with the powerful external attacks that Big Mom also received.

Every argument that challenges the on panel hype the Yonko have received has been strictly through headcanon.

There's a reason why the Yonko have ruled the New World for decades. People gotta stop denying that for their desire to see Akainu as a more prominent antagonist.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kamisori (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Big Mom, as a Yonko, has significantly better hype, portrayal, and story relevance.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Fel1x (Feb 4, 2022)

BM mid-high diff

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## MartyMcFly1 (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu. And I’ll say the gap is larger than many suspect. It isn’t huge, but Akainu decisively wins.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu MF Feats alone against the WB Pirates and WB is above Loosing or being pushed to extreme diff by Kid/Law (this is assuming the small chance she gets back up and wins). Akainu also being a major antagonist to Luffy in the future while BM is still fighting supporting cast members makes it incredibly obvious that by the time he fights Luffy he will be massively above BM.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 4


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Akainu. And I’ll say the gap is larger than many suspect. It isn’t huge, but Akainu decisively wins.


The difference is going to be anywhere from Katakuri vs Doffy , or perhaps even Katakuri vs Pica as she isn’t even the main arc villain just the second strongest of the villains

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

BM of course


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## Orca (Feb 4, 2022)

Personally think this fight can go either way.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Neutral 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Boy I can’t wait until Akainu is pit against Sabo because Oda hasn’t forgotten that Ace had another brother that inherited his will and deserves to avenge his late brother

Lord knows Sabo isn’t fighting BB, so who does that leave

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

Turrin said:


> The difference is going to be anywhere from Katakuri vs Doffy , or perhaps even *Katakuri vs Pica* as she isn’t even the main arc villain just the second strongest of the villains


Noted that so I can further humiliate you in the months to come

"Difference between BM and Akainu will Be like Katakuri/Pica "

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Noted that so I can further humiliate you in the months to come
> 
> "Difference between BM and Akainu will Be like Katakuri/Pica "


Oh my god that’s one of the worst I’ve seen

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Noted that so I can further humiliate you in the months to come
> 
> "Difference between BM and Akainu will Be like Katakuri/Pica "


I said one or the other, but of course you can’t read right. And aren’t you humiliated enough already considering BM did way worse then Blueno loosing to Kid/Law? Or is Kaidou going to do worse then Losing to Kid and Law if Luffy uses a new Gear Form to beat him?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I said one or the other, but of course you can’t read right. *And aren’t you humiliated enough already considering BM did way worse then Blueno loosing to Kid/Law*? Or is Kaidou going to do worse then Losing to Kid and Law if Luffy uses a new Gear Form to beat him?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

These guys are wanking a guy who could only get the upper hand against a dying man with cheapshots. Then this same guy they're wanking was put in the ground for multiple chapters with an attack that could barely destroy a building. 

Just wait until SH Grandfleet members start boxing with admirals.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> These guys are wanking a guy who could only get the upper hand against a dying man with cheapshots. Then this same guy they're wanking was put in the ground for multiple chapters with an attack *that could barely destroy a building*.
> 
> Just wait until SH Grandfleet members start boxing with admirals.


it was "island splitting"

Reactions: Funny 3


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

His fellow admiral couldn't even put down a pre ts Apoo nor was he able to put down any of the hakiless SN and had to "vent" his rage by capturing 500 fodder

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Brian (Feb 4, 2022)

Orca said:


> Personally think this fight can go either way.



This but I voted BM anyway

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> it was "island splitting"


Nah it was tho. Admiral wankers are bad, but we don’t gotta be like them


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> His fellow admiral couldn't even put down a pre ts Apoo nor was he able to put down any of the hakiless SN and had to "vent" his rage by capturing 500 fodder


The guy was having a mental crysis for not being capable to do shit with only one rusty low top tier on the entire island

Reactions: Funny 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> The guy was having a mental crysis for not being capable to do shit with only one rusty low top tier on the entire island



Give apoo haki and he one shots his ass.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Nah it was tho. Admiral wankers are bad, but we don’t gotta be like them


So there were 2 MFs when BB came? Cause that's what splitting an island means


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> So there were 2 MFs when BB came? Cause that's what splitting an island means


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## Duhul10 (Feb 4, 2022)

the question stands. This at best shows a split on an area, not a separation of the island into two pieces, which did not happen. As it says here as well " THE SQUARE has been cut in two "


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Boy I can’t wait until Akainu is pit against Sabo because Oda hasn’t forgotten that Ace had another brother that inherited his will and deserves to avenge his late brother
> 
> Lord knows Sabo isn’t fighting BB, so who does that leave


You’ll be waiting forever.

I mean, maybe Sabo fights Akainu but he’ll lose. Giving Luffy the opportunity to redeem himself and this time he’ll be strong enough to protect a brother.

But hey, I don’t think I’ll change your mind especially if you actually think BM is a more relevant character than Akainu lol.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

JustSumGuy said:


> You’ll be waiting forever.
> 
> I mean, maybe Sabo fights Akainu but he’ll lose. Giving Luffy the opportunity to redeem himself and this time he’ll be strong enough to protect a brother.
> 
> But hey, I don’t think I’ll change your mind especially if you actually think BM is a more relevant character than Akainu lol.


So no redemption for Sabo? I get that the manga is about Luffy, but he’s not the only character allowed to accomplish things. Kidd/Law’s fight against Big Mom is a perfect example of that.

And mocking the argument without actually presenting any support for your disagreement isn’t really making yourself look any better.

I pointed out how Big Mom is more relevant to Luffy based on what Oda said about the Yonko being the main obstacle to his goal. Luffy doesn’t need to topple the Navy in order to become the Pirate King, and by the time he reaches Raftel he’ll have already surpassed everyone else on the sea. I could post the reference, but probably wouldn’t make a difference for you, am I right? 

Sabo is a revolutionary. His main enemy is the Navy. Luffy is a pirate. His primary obstacle to his goal is the Yonko; as said by Oda. Would stand to reason that Sabo beats the head of the Navy while Luffy fights his main boss, rather than Luffy hogging all the glory.

But like you said, I doubt your mind is changing any time soon

Reactions: Winner 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

JustSumGuy said:


> You’ll be waiting forever.
> 
> I mean, maybe Sabo fights Akainu but he’ll lose. Giving Luffy the opportunity to redeem himself and this time he’ll be strong enough to protect a brother.
> 
> But hey, I don’t think I’ll change your mind especially *if you actually think BM is a more relevant character than Akainu lol.*



 Yes, The Marine that has like 20 pages of screen time is more relevant than a character in group that Oda planned from the nascency of this manga as Luffy's main opponents. Yes, this Marine is more relevant in a Manga about pirates and beating pirates.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Boy I can’t wait until Akainu is pit against Sabo

Reactions: Funny 5 | Optimistic 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

Imagine the salt when Kaido and Shanks fall before the admirals? 

 

As I said, Mbxx needs to open the mine and export it to every corner of the world. The salt the admiral and grandmaster haters produce is going to make him a millionaire in no time and he won't have to beg for donations anymore.

Reactions: Like 1


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## YellowCosmos (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> His fellow admiral couldn't even put down a pre ts Apoo nor was he able to put down any of the hakiless SN and had to "vent" his rage by capturing 500 fodder



His rage was caused by Kuma's interference re the Luffy hitting a CD issue. The Strawhats were going to be captured even though Kizaru was being kept busy by Rayleigh. As for the Supernovas, consider the possibility that he let them go so Drake could get away.


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Yes, The Marine that has like 20 pages of screen time is more relevant than a character in group that Oda planned from the nascency of this manga as Luffy's main opponents. Yes, this Marine is more relevant in a Manga about pirates and beating pirates.


Cmon, this ain’t Shanks or BB we talking about here. A blanket statement saying automatically pirate>marines in terms of relevancy is a stretch. 

BM had two major arcs and in both of them she wasn’t even able to get the main fight with the MC. Akainu’s effect on Luffy and the story can still be felt to this day. When Big Mom leaves the story, what are we gonna remember her for ? What will we be able to say about her impact on Luffy or any other major character ?


Akainu was the big baddie for arguably the most important arc in the entire story and is clearly supposed to be an overarching villain through the series.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> His rage was caused by Kuma's interference re the Luffy hitting a CD issue. The Strawhats were going to be captured even though Kizaru was being kept busy by Rayleigh. As for the Supernovas, consider the possibility that he let them go so Drake could get away.


Nothing indicates that he let them go nor does anything thus far indicate that Kizaru is aware of sword. 
He failed to capture the SH and SN and thus vented his rage. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Also stop bringing logic in here. I'm obligated to take everything, exaggerate and misrepresent it.


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## YellowCosmos (Feb 4, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Also stop bringing logic in here. I'm obligated to take everything, exaggerate and misrepresent it.



If that's what you want. I'll go back to mourning Big Mom.

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## Empathy (Feb 4, 2022)

It’s weird that people think Akainu needs to have gotten stronger post-TS to be able to compete with Big Mom. If the Admirals pre-TS were so weak compared to Yonkou, then there would be no Marines left as an organization. Admirals are what counterbalance Yonkou and vice-versa. Akainu is the strongest Admiral and Big Mom is the weakest Yonkou; he always would’ve beaten her and he wouldn’t need speculative post-Aokiji fight Haki bloom to do it.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Imagine the salt when Kaido and Shanks fall before the admirals?
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, Mbxx needs to open the mine and export it to every corner of the world. The salt the admiral and grandmaster haters produce is going to make him a millionaire in no time and he won't have to beg for donations anymore.


The Admirals will be going down to the likes of these guys

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## Ludi (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu high diff

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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 4, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> If that's what you want. I'll go back to mourning Big Mom.


 Who says she's down?


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Empathy said:


> It’s weird that people think Akainu needs to have gotten stronger post-TS to be able to compete with Big Mom. If the Admirals pre-TS were so weak compared to Yonkou, then there would be no Marines. Admirals are what hold counterbalance Yonkou and vice-versa. Akainu is the strongest Admiral and Big Mom is the weakest Yonkou; he always would’ve beaten her and he wouldn’t need speculative post-Aokiji fight Haki bloom to do it.


The admirals together with the shichibukai or SSG are what balance with the Yonko. This is what we were told. Not individual admirals. The Navy would easily be able to dominate the Yonko if what you’re arguing was the reality.

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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> So no redemption for Sabo? I get that the manga is about Luffy, but he’s not the only character allowed to accomplish things. Kidd/Law’s fight against Big Mom is a perfect example of that.


I don’t really think a Sabo redemption arc hinges on him beating Akainu. He may have a personal grudge against Akainu (even though we haven’t been shown it) but that’s never really mattered in this series.


Chip Skylark said:


> And mocking the argument without actually presenting any support for your disagreement isn’t really making yourself look any better.


I can show examples of characters that have a huge grudges against a major antagonist (Law, Scarbbards) and they even though they had a personal vendetta against them they weren’t able to defeat them simply because they were not Luffy. It’s been a pattern in this series and I expect that pattern to continue with Akainu.

Even if you disagree you can at least see the logic behind my thinking, no ?


Chip Skylark said:


> I pointed out how Big Mom is more relevant to Luffy based on what Oda said about the Yonko being the main obstacle to his goal. Luffy doesn’t need to topple the Navy in order to become the Pirate King, and by the time he reaches Raftel he’ll have already surpassed everyone else on the sea. I could post the reference, but probably wouldn’t make a difference for you, am I right?


True he doesn’t need to topple the navy to become PK but the story necessitates he eventually go up against the WG. It actually comes with the territory of being PK because that will be the immediate consequence of Luffy’s actions.

If you’ve read Marineford and Wano and have come to the conclusion that BM has been a more relevant character to Luffy than Akainu then..idk what to say to that. Oda did say initially, the yonko were the main plan for the story but like I said, only initially. He admitted in that same quote that things didn’t really plan out that way because of other things he hadn’t planned (like the warlords I think).


Chip Skylark said:


> Sabo is a revolutionary. His main enemy is the Navy. Luffy is a pirate. His primary obstacle to his goal is the Yonko; as said by Oda. Would stand to reason that Sabo beats the head of the Navy while Luffy fights his main boss, rather than Luffy hogging all the glory.


Luffy hogs all the glory. Even after this arc he’ll be hogging it so I don’t see the problem.

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## Empathy (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> The admirals together with the shichibukai or SSG are what balance with the Yonko. This is what we were told. Not individual admirals. The Navy would easily be able to dominate the Yonko if what you’re arguing was the reality.



They pretty much did exactly that to the strongest Yonkou crew pre-TS; it’s just not seen as worth the losses to annihilate an entire Yonkou crew unless they’re opposing the WG directly, because then another Yonkou crew could swoop in and finish them off (ie, what they were worried about when Shanks showed up). The Shichibukai no longer exist, and Mihawk is the only one who can threaten a Yonkou anyway, but he half-asses his responsibilities as much as possible. They were seen as a bridge between the Marines and Pirates.

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## Samehadaman (Feb 4, 2022)

I don't think Sabo will defeat Akainu, but anyways I think Sabo in final war will be stronger than Big Mom, not because it makes sense but because it is a shonnen and Sabo is relevant enough. Unless final war starts immediately and Luffy is kept entirely for Imu, and even then.

So will Mihawk, Shanks, Blackbeard, Dragon, Zoro, Admirals, etc. look stronger.

It is a shonnen. These arc villains lost. Whitebeard barely kept up his tier status by virtue of age and sickness and numbers disadvantage and constant, recent flashback reminders to keep fans aware of his status + he fought antagonists not protagonists. Even then most people are here saying he was a pathetic fodder in Marineford performance lol, arguing how many bricks in the floor he managed to crack.

Kaido and Big Mom were healthy and ready, they are in their prime, they did not even have any elemental disadvantage, sure they were ganged on at various points but there is 0 chance this will hold weight the way power levels inflate.
Doflamingo was ganged on too, Doflamingo would have won solo too. Cracker also.

Law was fodder to Doflamingo and now this. Kid was nothing to Queen. Luffy was losing to Cracker without help and water element plot and now Sanji would trash Cracker.

Big Mom and Kaido lose now and manga is not ending yet.
I would love to have consistent top tier power levels, and Oda held it together longer than nearly every other fighting manga ever, but it is what it is now.

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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

JustSumGuy said:


> Even if you disagree you can at least see the logic behind my thinking, no ?


It’s not that I think it’s impossible for Luffy to fight Akainu. It’s that I think it’s weird to center powerscaling around the possibility of it when there’s other possibilities that are just as viable, if not more so. Especially when your argument would suggest a huge shift in the established power levels, as most people acknowledge.


JustSumGuy said:


> True he doesn’t need to topple the navy to become PK but the story necessitates he eventually go up against the WG. It actually comes with the territory of being PK because that will be the immediate consequence of Luffy’s actions.
> 
> If you’ve read Marineford and Wano and have come to the conclusion that BM has been a more relevant character to Luffy than Akainu then..idk what to say to that. Oda did say initially, the yonko were the main plan for the story but like I said, only initially. He admitted in that same quote that things didn’t really plan out that way because of other things he hadn’t planned (like the warlords I think).


I think there’s a difference between Akainu’s relevance and the WG’s relevance. You seem to be blurring the lines between them. The WG as an entity is more relevant than Big Mom. Akainu as a stand-alone character is not. Akainu is far from the pinnacle of what the WG has to offer.

And considering Kidd and Law’s performance against Big Mom I’m pretty sure we’re well past the point of Luffy hogging all the glory.

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## Mercurial (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu high diffs

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## Fel1x (Feb 4, 2022)

can we even call admirals top tier?
may be only Akainu as FA
top tiers are people who stand on top. its Yonko
everyone else are tier below - high tiers

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## Samehadaman (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu is far from the pinnacle of what the WG has to offer.



Honest question, who does the WG have that is, in your words, *far* above Akainu?

Do you mean Imu himself is so powerful as to make everyone else irrelevant, or that Gorosei are the real muscle and a tier above Akainu?

Is the whole Marines as WG military just a mockery and an elaborate ruse, even though for the entirety of 800 years they were the military force the World Government de facto used (not Imu, who nobody even knows exists)?
Is the entirety of pirates, who historically only fought Marines, utter fodder to Imu inner circle including Roger and Whitebeard (who were opposed by Garp and Sengoku, Marines) and the Yonko?

I just find this view puzzling but you are certainly not the only one in these forums thinking Marines are the basic/fodder henchmen, Admirals included.

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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

It's good to see the Yonko set being so insecure. That desperation will only grow in the arcs to come...


Oh and Akainu wins btw. It will take him extreme-diff, but there probably isn't antagonist who evokes the same level of danger and threat right now. Anyone who thinks he will only be as strong as his MF version who was knocked out by a bloodlusted, dying WB are smoking something. 

If that were the case, there would be absolutely no point for Oda to promote him and raise his pedestal/importance in the story at the same time as Blackbeard's ascension. They remain the 2 main antagonists of the series, until Imu or someone takes over.

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## Chip Skylark (Feb 4, 2022)

Samehadaman said:


> Honest question, who does the WG have that is, in your words, *far* above Akainu?
> 
> Do you mean Imu himself is so powerful as to make everyone else irrelevant, or that Gorosei are the real muscle and a tier above Akainu?
> 
> ...


Even before the Navy was formed the CD’s were capable of annihilating entire countries.

The war that would encompass the entire world has been expected long before the Navy rose to prominence.

I think it’s pretty ridiculous to expect the WG’s offense to culminate in Akainu considering everything we know.

Of course there’s Imu, but there’s also their secret weapon that Doflamingo spoke of. There’s the resources and military that they have spread throughout the world. They have several admiral level fighters, and probably even more up their Arsenal that we still don’t know of.

The ancient weapons won’t be needed for just Akainu.

There’s been far too much built up with the lore, and everything for people to reasonably go “hurr durr final battle will be Luffy vs Akainu 1v1”

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## YellowCosmos (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> if not more so.



Sorry, but no one deserves this fight more than Luffy. Akainu killed Ace right in front of him and Ace took the deathblow _for_ Luffy. What did Akainu almost drove Luffy into hopelessness and despair. Luffy has a permanent scar from Akainu, just like Zoro has a permanent scar from Mihawk. Luffy had beef with Blackbeard just because Blackbeard happened to capture Ace. Akainu did something much worse than capture Ace in Luffy's mind.

Sabotage at the time was suffering from a convenient case of amnesia. He has no personal connection to Akainu beyond the fact Akainu killed a man he called his brother. It's _something_, but Luffy's experiences with Akainu are far more significant.

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## Samehadaman (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Even before the Navy was formed the CD’s were capable of annihilating entire countries.
> 
> The war that would encompass the entire world has been expected long before the Navy rose to prominence.
> 
> ...



So Roger is an absolute clown? Imu was like "I dunno lol send a Vice Admiral".

But for Luffy they will call the Ginyu Force in their capsules.

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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Even before the Navy was formed the CD’s were capable of annihilating entire countries.
> 
> The war that would encompass the entire world has been expected long before the Navy rose to prominence.
> 
> ...



It won't just be a Luffy vs Akainu 1v1...I agree there's more to the WG than that, but he is still pretty much their chief enforcer. 

In many ways, I think he'll be what Vader was to Sidious. An Iron fist and military figurehead. 

Thing about the Navy is, Prime WB mentioned them being the largest organisation in the world. The Marines have been established since the beginning of the series as the biggest individual force/faction. 

As for the military they have, the SSGs, and their admiral level fighters...most of all that will likely be under Akainu's command. Oda probably wouldn't have JInbei tell us that he moved HQ to the New World and has the Navy being more aggressive than ever before, if he wasn't going to be a huge player in the wars to come.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2022)

Sherlōck said:


> This chapter changed nothing.
> 
> The Terminator destroys Meme.



It did change something. Previously i would've said Sakazuki high diff but now iam certain it's no more than "MID" diff.

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu all day. Homies aren't doing shit to a logia.

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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Akainu all day. Homies aren't doing shit to a logia.


Lava will become a homie to protect BM.


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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It won't just be a Luffy vs Akainu 1v1...I agree there's more to the WG than that, but he is still pretty much their chief enforcer.
> 
> In many ways, I think he'll be what Vader was to Sidious. An Iron fist and military figurehead.
> 
> ...


Big players that will face luffy’s underlings, you are right on that.

I can’t think of anyone better than akainu for sabo to fight eos.


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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Big players that will face luffy’s underlings, you are right on that.
> 
> I can’t think of anyone better than akainu for sabo to fight eos.



The Admirals will face Luffy's underlings and Sabo probably. 


Luffy's beef with Akainu is more personal. Sabo doesn't deserve it.


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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> The Admirals will face Luffy's underlings and Sabo probably.
> 
> 
> Luffy's beef with Akainu is more personal. Sabo doesn't deserve it.


Who do you want sabo to fight then? So for you luffy fights akainu then goes and beats imu?


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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Who do you want sabo to fight then? So for you luffy fights akainu then goes and beats imu?


Sabo can fight Fujitora, Green Bull, Kong, or some other top tier who serves Imu and the World Gov. 

Luffy beats Akainu in New MF, and then goes on to Mariejoa to fight Imu. 

Dragon or Sabo kills Kong, but loses to Imu and then Luffy comes in.


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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Sabo can fight Fujitora, Green Bull, Kong, or some other top tier who serves Imu and the World Gov.
> 
> Luffy beats Akainu in New MF, and then goes on to Mariejoa to fight Imu.
> 
> Dragon or Sabo kills Kong, but loses to Imu and then Luffy comes in.


He’s not fighting guys from the retirement home. Fuji is likely on the SH side if not he’s got Zoro, Sanji got kizaru, dragon for some op gorosei.

That leaves Yamato, green bull, akainu and sabo.


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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> He’s not fighting guys from the retirement home. Fuji is likely on the SH side if not he’s got Zoro, Sanji got kizaru, dragon for some op gorosei.
> 
> That leaves Yamato, green bull, akainu and sabo.


Lol if Government still have top tiers he's fighting them. 


Everything is speculation, but Sabo actually has had 2 encounters with Fujitora already. 

Yamato doesn't have to fight GB. She can fight someone else in the WG or one of the admiral candidates. 

Sabo isn't worthy of fighting Akainu, only Luffy is; and if we're going for the standard shonen match ups between SHs and Marines, it'll probably be Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Yamato VS Akainu, Fujitora, Kizaru, Green Bull. That makes so much more sense. 

Let's also not forget guys like Coby and Smoker, where there's no guarantee they'll help the SHs while still being Navy men; at least not until the Navy regime is taken down.


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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Most importantly, who is gonna take my man eos bepo? this guy is going to be a problem!

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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> It’s not that I think it’s impossible for Luffy to fight Akainu. It’s that I think it’s weird to center powerscaling around the possibility of it when there’s other possibilities that are just as viable, if not more so. Especially when your argument would suggest a huge shift in the established power levels, as most people acknowledge.


I’m not really making a prediction about power levels when I talk about Luffy vs Akainu and more so making a prediction about the direction of the story.

Oda has made it clear that he’ll make as characters a strong as they need to be. Akainu being strong enough to give EOS Luffy a high diff fight doesn’t even strike me as a “huge shift”. Akainu would give any character a good fight. And Sabo can still get “glory” by beating someone else or contributing to the battle like Law or the Scabbards.


Chip Skylark said:


> I think there’s a difference between Akainu’s relevance and the WG’s relevance. You seem to be blurring the lines between them. The WG as an entity is more relevant than Big Mom. Akainu as a stand-alone character is not. Akainu is far from the pinnacle of what the WG has to offer.


Akainu absolutely is. The impact that Akainu, as an individual, has had on this story is larger than Big Mom’s. This saga has been about the defeat of Kaido and BM so yes, for awhile they’ve been at the forefront. But Akainu is an overarching antagonist and his actions have hit Luffy in a personal way that Big Mom doesn’t even come close to with any character.

Heck, I’d argue that Akainu and how he’s been built up as an antagonist has been paralleled to BB. They represent both extremes of the morality in the story:



And they were the two major antagonists that made the largest noise over the 2 year timeskip with both become a yonko and fleet admiral respectively. Akainu was actually the one that got a response out of Luffy.


So the two biggest differences in the world after two years were made because of the actions that both Akainu and Bb made but somehow Bb is the only one that’s looked at as a major antagonist. 

Akainu is an extremely relevant character individually even apart from his status in the WG and his presence is still felt. After Big Mom is done no one will talk about her ever again.


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## Kamisori (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Lol if Government still have top tiers he's fighting them.
> 
> 
> Everything is speculation, but Sabo actually has had 2 encounters with Fujitora already.
> ...


Nono you're wrong. Fire surpassing magma is way more important than Luffy fighting the guy who killed his brother before his eyes. He deserves to fight Akainu more.

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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Lol if Government still have top tiers he's fighting them.
> 
> 
> Everything is speculation, but Sabo actually has had 2 encounters with Fujitora already.
> ...


I can see a round one luffy vs akainu where luffy has an edge but sabo has to end it with ace’s fruit for poetic justice.

Smoker won’t but coby and garp are penciled in for SH.

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## chaintoad (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu low diffs. Big Mom would unironically lose to Enel.
Also, its good to see that everyone is finally coming around that Admirals >> Yonko. I mean, it should have been obvious to anyone with a functioning brain, but I am still glad that Oda made it clear now.

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Lava will become a homie to protect BM.


I'm sure Akainu would walk through that homie to get to Big Mom. Prometheus and Hera or Mercy would do zero damage since they have no haki.


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## Orca (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It won't just be a Luffy vs Akainu 1v1...I agree there's more to the WG than that, but he is still pretty much their chief enforcer.
> 
> In many ways, I think he'll be what Vader was to Sidious. An Iron fist and military figurehead.
> 
> ...



How strong do you think Eos Akainu will be? In comparison to say Kaido, EoS BlackBeard and Roger/Wb.


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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

Orca said:


> How strong do you think Eos Akainu will be?


Whatever Fleet Admiral level is...worst case scenario, he's marginally weaker than a Yonko. Best case scenario, almost as strong if not equal to Prime Garp. 


Orca said:


> In comparison to say Kaido,


Roughly the same level


Orca said:


> EoS BlackBeard and Roger/Wb.


Weaker.

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## Corax (Feb 4, 2022)

Orca said:


> How strong do you think Eos Akainu will be? In comparison to say Kaido, EoS BlackBeard and Roger/Wb.


By narrative and logical scaling he should be future PK rival like prime Garp. However Luffy is going to become the strongest PK in history. This might change things a bit.

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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I'm sure Akainu would walk through that homie to get to Big Mom. Prometheus and Hera or Mercy would do zero damage since they have no haki.


It would defend her from lava attacks. Big mom has acoc she can do plenty of damage if she is restricted by plot.

Akainu didn’t do well against a sick old injured wb so he’s going to likely lose here given how BM can heal and has the AP to beat him.

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## Orca (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Whatever Fleet Admiral level is...worst case scenario, he's marginally weaker than a Yonko. Best case scenario, almost as strong if not equal to Prime Garp.
> 
> Roughly the same level
> 
> Weaker.



I agree with you on where you’re placing Akainu on the heirarchy ladder.(Although I have a suspicion you rank Prime Garp higher than I do).

But ultimately that's the reason why some of us cant imagine Akainu as Luffy’s ultimate WG opponent. If think you about it, Luffy is currently fighting an opponent who is at the very least on same level as Akainu(even if you think Akainu is stronger, its by a hair). Then, and I think most of us will agree, Luffy will fight Eos Blackbeard who probably will be as strong as Roger/PrimeWB. So we'll be going from a Yonko level threat to a PK level threat and then back down to a Yonko level threat? Even if thats acceptable to you, I'm sure it shows why this path is questionable to a lot of us.

Although having said that, I've never been a fan of Sabo vs Akainu theory either. Not saying its impossible but it would be shitty writing imo. Personally I see Luffy vs Akainu going one of three ways (a) Luffy fights Akainu next after Wano and before BB(I'm saying this because I actually feel like we're heading towards a marines/WG arc next as there seems to be a lot of setup) (b) Luffy fights more than 1 Admiral in the final war. And I dont mean just skirmishes. Like an actual fight. This might feel like disrespectful to some. But if you think about it, Luffy might be acending to Roger+ level at this point (c) Final war is similar to Marineford where everyone is fighting everyone and at some point Luffy takes out Akainu in a skirmish(not an actual 1v1).

The only actual way I can see Akainu being a credible 1v1 final opponent for Luffy is if he the WG literally enhances him through cybernetic enhancements(literally making him a terminator) or via drinking from some well of ascension(secret of Marijoa) type magic shit.

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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

Orca said:


> I agree with you on where you’re placing Akainu on the heirarchy ladder.(Although I have a suspicion you rank Prime Garp higher than I do).


I got him on par with Roger/WB in their primes, though maybe slightly behind them. Still a bit above the current Yonko imo. But that is the absolute best case scenario I can see for Akainu. 


Orca said:


> But ultimately that's the reason why some of us cant imagine Akainu as Luffy’s ultimate WG opponent. If think you about it, Luffy is currently fighting an opponent who is at the very least on same level as Akainu(even if you think Akainu is stronger, its by a hair). Then, and I think most of us will agree, Luffy will fight Eos Blackbeard who probably will be as strong as Roger/PrimeWB. So we'll be going from a Yonko level threat to a PK level threat and then back down to a Yonko level threat? Even if thats acceptable to you, I'm sure it shows why this path is questionable to a lot of us.


It really depends on the dynamic of each of Luffy's opponent. Not all of his fights end with extreme-diff. Since most of us no longer have Akainu as _the _no. 1 threat of the WG (that being Imu), and being more of the face for the marines; that means he won't be Luffy's final opponent in the final war. 

Akainu can be a high-difficulty battle for EoS Luffy, ultimately losing and ending in a beatdown at the hands of the latter. It could very well mirror the result we saw in MF when WB took him down; only this time, Akainu is stronger than he was at MF, and Luffy is clearly stronger than an Older Whitebeard and with none of the injuries or debilitating health condition. He'll still give Luffy a run for his money, but I suspect Luffy will stand over him when it's all said and done having clearly paid him back for Ace.



Orca said:


> Although having said that, I've never been a fan of Sabo vs Akainu theory either. Not saying its impossible but it would be shitty writing imo.



I agree with this. 



Orca said:


> Personally I see Luffy vs Akainu going one of three ways (a) Luffy fights Akainu next after Wano and before BB(I'm saying this because I actually feel like we're heading towards a marines/WG arc next as there seems to be a lot of setup) (b) Luffy fights more than 1 Admiral in the final war. And I dont mean just skirmishes. Like an actual fight. This might feel like disrespectful to some. But if you think about it, Luffy might be acending to Roger+ level at this point (c) Final war is similar to Marineford where everyone is fighting everyone and at some point Luffy takes out Akainu in a skirmish(not an actual 1v1).
> 
> The only actual way I can see Akainu being a credible 1v1 final opponent for Luffy is if he the WG literally enhances him through cybernetic enhancements(literally making him a terminator) or via drinking from some well of ascension(secret of Marijoa) type magic shit.


All of that is possible. 

Yes, Akainu could become the literal terminator...we know his zeal for his Absolute Justice doctrine, and he more than backed that up with his sheer tenacity, willpower, and determination that he showed in Marineford hunting down pirates. Why wouldn't he go the extra distance and make himself more monster than man if that's what it takes? But yeah it's all speculation. 

All we know is that he leads New Marineford, which is in the New World.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> It would defend her from lava attacks. Big mom has acoc she can do plenty of damage if she is restricted by plot.


_All_ Lava attacks? Unlikely. It's not like Hera or Prometheus defended her from Law's electric attacks.


arv993 said:


> Akainu didn’t do well against a sick old injured wb so he’s going to likely lose here given how BM can heal and has the AP to beat him.


Whitebeard is stronger than Big Mom with vastly more attack power and he lost half his head even when benefitting from a sneak attack.

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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> _All_ Lava attacks? Unlikely. It's not like Hera or Prometheus defended her from Law's electric attacks.
> 
> Whitebeard is stronger than Big Mom with vastly more attack power and he lost half his head even when benefitting from a sneak attack.


Lol the wb that was sick and battered by the time he faced akainu with bad coo and no acoc. That wb is better than BM?



Law does internal damage genius. Sakazuki is external.

She could use metal against kid until she got attacked from the back by sneak attacks. Lava homie would work to a degree.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MO (Feb 4, 2022)

Big mom ofc.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Lol the wb that was sick and battered by the time he faced akainu with bad coo and no acoc. That wb is better than BM?


Yes.


arv993 said:


> Law does internal damage genius. Sakazuki is external.


Counter Shock is the electrical attack in question. I'm not referring to his awakening.


arv993 said:


> She could use metal against kid until she got attacked from the back by sneak attacks. Lava homie would work to a degree.


Well she could use metal against Kid until Kid tried harder and bent the metal to his will anyway.

It would work to a degree but not to a high enough degree to change the outcome especially since Akainu can just walk through the thing.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Feb 4, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Yes.
> 
> Counter Shock is the electrical attack in question. I'm not referring to his awakening.
> 
> ...


Counter shock is an attack that’s direct meaning he had his sword on big mom very close to her and he got it off when big mom was distracted surprise surprise. 

No when she was hurt beyond belief after sparing the duo. She then went to stronger attacks. And akainu isn’t a lava bender so he can’t control homies.

It’s mainly for defense. Acoc would pummel akainu ofc this is a plot unrestricted mama.


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> It’s not that I think it’s impossible for Luffy to fight Akainu. It’s that I think it’s weird to center powerscaling around the possibility of it when there’s other possibilities that are just as viable, if not more so. Especially when your argument would suggest a huge shift in the established power levels, as most people acknowledge.


I’m not really making a prediction about power levels when I talk about Luffy vs Akainu and more so making a prediction about the direction of the story.

Oda has made it clear that he’ll make as characters a strong as they need to be. Akainu being strong enough to give EOS Luffy a high diff fight doesn’t even strike me as a “huge shift”. Akainu would give any character a good fight. And Sabo can still get “glory” by beating someone else or contributing to the battle like Law or the Scabbards.


Chip Skylark said:


> I think there’s a difference between Akainu’s relevance and the WG’s relevance. You seem to be blurring the lines between them. The WG as an entity is more relevant than Big Mom. Akainu as a stand-alone character is not. Akainu is far from the pinnacle of what the WG has to offer.


The impact that Akainu, as an individual, has had on this story is larger than Big Mom’s. This saga has been about the defeat of Kaido and BM so yes, for awhile they’ve been at the forefront. But Akainu is an overarching antagonist and his actions have hit Luffy in a personal way that Big Mom doesn’t even come close to with any character. 

Heck, I’d argue that Akainu and how he’s been built up as an antagonist has been paralleled to BB. They represent both extremes on the spectrum of morality in the story, complete order and complete chaos and how they both are horrible for it.

And they were the two major antagonists that made the largest noise over the 2 year timeskip with both become a yonko and fleet admiral respectively. Akainu was actually the one that got a response out of Luffy.  So the two biggest differences in the world after two years were made because of the actions that both Akainu and Bb made but somehow Bb is the only one that’s looked at as a major antagonist.  

Akainu is an extremely relevant character individually even apart from his status in the WG and his presence is still felt. After Big Mom is done no one will talk about her ever again.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mihawk (Feb 4, 2022)

Just a reminder but with the exception of perhaps Akainu in Marineford...it can be argued that none of the Admirals have *truly gone all out*. At least...not on panel.

WB was nerfed in MF by injuries, illnesses, age, etc. not to mention the presence of his troops; but it's very possible the Admirals couldn't use their full Awakening abilities with their troops around, as well as the fact that they were protecting home base and fighting at Headquarters. This is evident by Akainu's dialogue with Whitebeard when he said that Newgate would just keep destroying the city...

Of course, I do believe they both went all out in their final bout which ended with Akainu dropping into a sinkhole and WB losing half his head, but yeah...Kizaru didn't get a scratch on him during the war, and all Aokiji got was a busted lip by courtesy of Jozu. Neither of them pursued the pirates with the same level of zeal as Sakazuki did, in spite of being his nigh equals.

Fujitora's disposition in Dressrosa was inconsistent at best. He waffled between protecting the Shichibukai and trying to capture the SHs. Sabo implied he wasn't fully serious (or something like that), and Issho himself admitted to not having fully mastered his devil fruit yet. In addition to this, pulling the meteor from space was done very casually.

This is to say nothing of the Reverie encounter against the Revo Commanders, where Issho and GB clearly would've been restricted since they were fighting in Mariejoa, where the World Nobles were holding their conference. Fujitora himself told Green Bull that if they were to fight, the entire place would be destroyed...so they were restricted as they couldn't afford to raze the environment.


In contrast, we've now seen the extent of what Kaido and Big Mom are capable of. They do have some of the best feats in the series (more so Kaido), but we've also seen far more of them by now.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 4, 2022)

Akainu *extreme *(_mid_) diff. The poll is maybe bit too unbalanced, should be 55-45 not 70-30 in favor ok Akainu.

This is a fair call.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

Captain Altintop said:


> Akainu *extreme *(_mid_) diff. The poll is maybe bit too unbalanced, should be 55-45 not 70-30 in favor ok Akainu.
> 
> This is a fair call.


I don't think you understand how polls work.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 4, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I don't think you understand how polls work.



I know that you mean bro, I think that Akainu wins around 8-9 / 10 times against Big Mum with that said diff.

I was surprised and just thought that there were more people voting for BM, simple as that.
Powerwise it would be 52-48 which is extreme (_mid_) diff like.

Pollwise it depends on which kind of people (pro Sakakuzi, pro Linlin, neutral) are voting in a specific order and time / duration.

It could change the other day fast, from 70-30 to sth like 60-40 or 80-20 ...

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 4, 2022)

Captain Altintop said:


> I know that you mean bro, I think that Akainu wins around 8-9 / 10 times against Big Mum with that said diff.
> 
> I was surprised and just thought that there were more people voting for BM, simple as that.
> Powerwise it would be 52-48 which is extreme (_mid_) diff like.
> ...


Right, I was just fucking with you. I knew what you meant. 

I have Akainu winning but it's not a large gap in my opinion.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## VileNotice (Feb 4, 2022)

Sakazuki wins. She beats the other admirals though.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 4, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> It did change something. Previously i would've said Sakazuki high diff but now iam certain it's no more than "MID" diff.



I won't be surprised.

Imagine if in the next arc SHC opponent is Fujitora led BC and learn that one of Laidou's defeat was at the hand of Fujitora. This place would implode.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Sherlōck (Feb 4, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> WB was nerfed in MF by injuries, illnesses, age, etc. not to mention the presence of his troops;



Jinbei literally debunked this myth at MF.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Flower (Feb 4, 2022)

Sakazuki neg diffs no contest .

Jk, but I wouldn‘t go higher than high diff here.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 4, 2022)

Orca said:


> The only actual way I can see Akainu being a credible 1v1 final opponent for Luffy is if he the WG literally enhances him through cybernetic enhancements(literally making him a terminator) or via drinking from some well of ascension(secret of Marijoa) type magic shit.



Yeah, cause otherwise tier lists of your fall apart.


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## Juub (Feb 4, 2022)

Look at the lopsided result in Akainu's favor.

@TheWiggian @Furinji Saiga and I have been saying it for years. Now that Meme is on her death bed the OL is changing direction?



Judgment day is coming for you when this is all done. You will be hunted down, captured, and publicly executed in the town square of Loguetown for all to see. No need to run. We know who you are.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Nic (Feb 4, 2022)

Due to natural plot progression you would assume akainu would he stromger at this point, but who knows. Is luffy really going to fight im, bb, and akainu? As much as i like akainu i would not be shocked if oda chose to go a diferent route.


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## akainuDragonFan (Feb 5, 2022)

As one of my favorite characters its hard for me to say this but Big Mom until Akainu gets some feats to back up the hype. Right now the only thing that gives him a chance is the expectation that he is going to be an obstacle at some later point in the story for Luffy, which I don't necessarily buy anyway.


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## Eustathios (Feb 5, 2022)

Akainu will most certainly be stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 5, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Akainu is/was always stronger.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## KingShanks (Feb 5, 2022)

Akainu mid diffs big mom. Homies are absolute trash against someone like Akainu. Promethues will get instantly vaporized. Akainu even is stronger in raw physical strength and his devil fruit is at the very top. And Most importantly he has very strong will and would do anything to take you down. Bigmom got clowned by someone like Jinbe and pushed back by Marco. And we have seen both of them couldn't do shit to Akainu.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ShadoLord (Feb 5, 2022)

Akainu mid/high-diff.

the disparity in strength is noticeable.

big mom is the jack of all trade which was why she’s weak and went out easily.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 5, 2022)

akainuDragonFan said:


> As one of my favorite characters its hard for me to say this but Big Mom until Akainu gets some feats to back up the hype. Right now the only thing that gives him a chance is the expectation that he is going to be an obstacle at some later point in the story for Luffy, which I don't necessarily buy anyway.


What hype does Akainu have? Dude is like all feats from what I remember.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## gunchar (Feb 5, 2022)

Empathy said:


> It’s weird that people think Akainu needs to have gotten stronger post-TS to be able to compete with Big Mom. If the Admirals pre-TS were so weak compared to Yonkou, then there would be no Marines left as an organization. Admirals are what counterbalance Yonkou and vice-versa. Akainu is the strongest Admiral and Big Mom is the weakest Yonkou; he always would’ve beaten her and he wouldn’t need speculative post-Aokiji fight Haki bloom to do it.


Following that insane logic BM would have been already no Emporer anymore, but surprise, surprise the Admirals didn't just showed up and took her + her crew out after Akainu himself became the Fleet Admiral aka the same guy who is pretty much hellbent on changing the power structure of the world.

A non PIS BM most likely beats MF Akainu or else i don't know how the hell she was even still an Emporer at all, current Akainu could probably go either way and a theoretical Prime Akainu has no business in this thread.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## KingShanks (Feb 5, 2022)

Zoro said:


> Akainu mid/high-diff.
> 
> the disparity in strength is noticeable.
> 
> big mom is the jack of all trade which was why she’s weak and went out easily.


True, Akainu is a very smart fighter who doesn't fool around. He is very serious enough to go for the kill from the start. Akainu literally has proven destructive capabilities.
One punch 
(1) Burned off Part of whitebeards face
(2) Killed ace
(3) Put Jinbei on the brink of death

And Marco and Vista tag teamed on him and he brushed their attacks like nothing. Marco + whitebeard remnants + crocodile weren't enough to stop him, It had to be Shanks at the end. 
And look at Big Mom lol, she was thrown off the top of Onigashima because of how dum she is. And her speed is a total garbage.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## gunchar (Feb 6, 2022)

Captain Altintop said:


> Akainu *extreme (mid) diff.*





Captain Altintop said:


> I know that you mean bro, *I think that Akainu wins* *around 8-9 / 10 times against Big Mum with that said diff.*




The concept of x/10 is pretty much just another way of measuring difficulties, and 8-9/10 is ridiculously far away from freaking *EXTREME *dif. If you remotely win that often, the fight was blatant not extreme dif(which means pretty much you make one notable or a couple of slight mistakes and straight up lose, and there is absolutely no place for low, mid or high versions of extreme dif except it actually isn't extreme).

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## KingShanks (Feb 6, 2022)

Also guys see my list, what do you think of this

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## gunchar (Feb 6, 2022)

KingShanks said:


> Also guys see my list, what do you think of this


Pretty much the biggest pile of bullshit i've seen here so far, and that's quite something on the Madness scale.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 6, 2022)

theoretically big mom should be on par or slightly stronger than akainu but given her actual feats so far she's far underneath him

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## tupadre97 (Feb 6, 2022)

Samehadaman said:


> Have you guys ever read a shonnen?
> 
> Are the Admirals still fodder to Yonko?


they were never fodder to them just slightly weaker as clearly it was considered that the 3 admirals plus mihawk was basically equivalent to the yonko


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## Revan Reborn (Feb 7, 2022)

Did you know, only 1/2 of people understand shonen logic.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 7, 2022)

Revan Reborn said:


> Did you know, only 1/2 of people understand shonen logic.



The raid will fail


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## Corax (Feb 7, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> The raid will fail


Act 3 will end in tragedy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 7, 2022)

Corax said:


> Act 3 will end in tragedy



The editor cried


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## Inferno Jewls (Feb 7, 2022)

Akainu mid diffs

Kidd and Law would not give Akainu an extreme diff, maybe high diff at most.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## trance (Feb 7, 2022)

akainu

Reactions: Like 1


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## gunchar (Feb 7, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Akainu mid diffs
> 
> Kidd and Law would not give Akainu an extreme diff, maybe high diff at most.


Are you literally on hard drugs?

If Akainu could even remotely dream about mid diffing any Emporers, there wouldn't be any Emporers anymore, period.

Admirals fanboys really make the biggest effort to be even more delusional than Zoro fanboys, hell this is even far more delusional than anyone except the most blatant trolls.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Gianfi (Feb 7, 2022)

Big Mom high diff


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## TheWiggian (Feb 7, 2022)

I don't remember if i posted here before. Sakazuki mid diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Inferno Jewls (Feb 7, 2022)

gunchar said:


> Are you literally on hard drugs?


I'm tempted to ask you the same thing for thinking that an Admiral can't mid diff a Granny

Reactions: Funny 1


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## gunchar (Feb 7, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> I'm tempted to ask you the same thing for thinking that an Admiral can't mid diff a Granny


The sad thing is, i'm really not sure if you're just a bad troll.


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## Zero (Feb 7, 2022)

I love threads like these.

both sides are extremely confident that their character beats the other

Some of y’all going so far to say Akainu mid diffs…Christ lol.

Akainu wins high-extreme diff.


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## Inferno Jewls (Feb 7, 2022)

gunchar said:


> The sad thing is, i'm really not sure if you're just a bad troll.


You are hyping a Granny more than the amount of times she fucked for power, I think you're most definitely a troll

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Corax (Feb 7, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> I don't remember if i posted here before. Sakazuki mid diff.


You are to generous.You might want to revisit this thread after Akainu vs Joy Boy Luffy with advanced voice of all things and awakening.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 7, 2022)

Corax said:


> You are to generous.You might want to revisit this thread after Akainu vs Joy Boy Luffy with advanced voice of all things and awakening.



Now that you say that  

I probably have to re-evaluate when the time comes. Given powercreep this fight has the chance to drop below mid diff in Sakazuki's favour.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2022)

gunchar said:


> Are you literally on hard drugs?
> 
> If Akainu could even remotely dream about mid diffing any Emporers, there wouldn't be any Emporers anymore, period.
> 
> Admirals fanboys really make the biggest effort to be even more delusional than Zoro fanboys, hell this is even far more delusional than anyone except the most blatant trolls.


I’m just curious why would there be no more emperors if the Fleet Admiral could Mid-Diff BM. Is there a Tenchi Budukai Yonko are forced to compete in where they have to fight enemies 1v1 where Akainu can Mid-Diff BM and kill her that Oda talked about in an SBS that I’m unaware of. Because if so please let me know.

Otherwise I would think BM’s Crew and 1000s of Homie Soldiers would be a major factor as to why the Fleet Admiral might avoid going to  war with her, no matter the Diff he could beat her with 1v1.

Especially when they have to worry about the force of the other Yonko and NW Pirates as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## gunchar (Feb 7, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I’m just curious why would there be no more emperors if the Fleet Admiral could Mid-Diff BM. Is there a Tenchi Budukai Yonko are forced to compete in where they have to fight enemies 1v1 where Akainu can Mid-Diff BM and kill her that Oda talked about in an SBS that I’m unaware of. Because if so please let me know.



If Akainu could somehow mid dif an Emporer, he could pretty much solo an Emporer + crew, which means nothing would stop him to just take some backup and do exactly that.



Turrin said:


> Otherwise I would think BM’s Crew and 1000s of Homie Soldiers would be a major factor as to why the Fleet Admiral goto war with her, no matter the Diff he could beat her with 1v1.



They wouldn't if Akainu would be even remotely that overpowered, Akainu would just need some backup to be absolutely sure and that's it.



Turrin said:


> Especially when they have to worry about the force of the other Yonko and NW Pirates as well.



That problem wouldn't even exist if Akainu would be even remotely that overpowered, cause they would straight up still have multiple Admirals left to defend themselves from that.

*Why the hell are we even talking about this delusional nonsense?*


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 7, 2022)

Isn't a Yonkō supposed to be >>> an Admiral by a significant margin, tho?

I'd say Big Mom significantly exceeds Akainu, by virtue of possessing the greater title, and reputation .. tbh ..


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2022)

gunchar said:


> If Akainu could somehow mid dif an Emporer, he could pretty much solo an Emporer + crew, which means nothing would stop him to just take some backup and do exactly that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would he solo an Emperor + Crew, just because he could Mid-Diff one. That’s massively in contrast to the focus on how numbers are extremely important in this arc

I mean to me it’s kind of delusional nonsense to say because someone can Mid Diff someone they could take that person and then another thousand strong army on top of it and multiple Yonko Commanders and other Elites.

Can you give any example of something like this occurring in the Manga

Also like what Diff do you think BM has with Kidd or Law 1v1. Because to me that’s a Mid/High diff fight in BM favor; and then just adding one more of them means she looses; and I don’t think Kidd or Law > An Entire Yonko’s Army

Reactions: Agree 2


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## gunchar (Feb 7, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Why would he solo an Emperor + Crew, just because he could Mid-Diff one. That’s massively in contrast to the focus on how numbers are extremely important in this arc



Did you see the crews of BM and Kaido, what exactly are they going to do against an absolutely overpowered monster that can freaking mid dif Emporers???



Turrin said:


> I mean to me it’s kind of delusional nonsense to say because someone can Mid Diff someone they could take that person and then another thousand strong army on top of it and multiple Yonko Commanders and other Elites.



Other Elites my ass, it's more than implied that BM's crew for example couldn't stop her, and this Headcanon Akainu would be someone who pretty much put even Roger to shame. And i btw already mentioned that Akainu would take some back up.



Turrin said:


> Can you give any example of something like this occurring in the Manga



How exactly should i give you an example for a character more overpowered than anything we have seen so far in One Piece?


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2022)

gunchar said:


> Did you see the crews of BM and Kaido, what exactly are they going to do against an absolutely overpowered monster that can freaking mid dif Emporers???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Overwhelm with Numbers…. I mean Fodder got in attacks against WB due to numbers don’t see why this would be any different.

2) Or Roger would also Mid-Diff BM. And Roger is another good example of how Numbers matter during his war with Shiki.

3) I’m asking for an example of when one character could Mid-Diff another and was then able to beat that character + a massive army. I already gave you an example with Law and Kidd that contradicts this. I mean do you think BM has more then Mid/High diff with Kidd or Law 1v1.


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## Empathy (Feb 7, 2022)

MagicalMiraclesOfWater65 said:


> Isn't a Yonkō supposed to be >>> an Admiral by a significant margin, tho?
> 
> I'd say Big Mom significantly exceeds Akainu, by virtue of possessing the greater title, and reputation, tbh.



Canonically, all you have to do to qualify to be an Emperor is be strong enough to defeat Marco. If Akainu decided to be a pirate and form his own decently strong crew, then he would an Emperor.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Feb 7, 2022)

Big mom mid- to -high diff.
She suffered with Kid and Law because while focusing on one the other sneak attack her and Law used the room to move faster and has negation durability which damaged her internally which would give Kid a chance to magnetize her and hurt her externally.
And Akainu is equal or slower than Nerfedbeard who is equal or slower than Big Mom.


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