# EMS Sasuke Vs healthy Nagato.



## Goku Black (Aug 3, 2020)

Location: Sannin deadlock.
Knowledge: manga.
IC: to kill.
Restrictions: no restrictions.
Distance: 30 yards.
Vote in the thread poll please.

Don't forget to use the best version of each character, so (post JJ Obito defeat Sasuke) and (healthy Nagato).


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 3, 2020)

Susanoo legit blitzes Nagato per a hilarious speed gap per feats

Juubito >=< BM/Susanoo strikes > BM/KCM shunshin >>> Raikages top speed >= Amaterasu >= Nagatos sensory amped reactions at their on panel peak


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## Goku Black (Aug 3, 2020)

@MaruUchiha 
@Itachi san88 
@Mar55 
@Hi no Ishi 
@The_Conqueror 
@Grinningfox 
@Bonly


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## Grinningfox (Aug 3, 2020)

Sasuke’s Susano’o at this point strikes fast enough to pressure Juubito

should be enough to slap Nagato faster than he can deal with consistently all while keeping Sasuke safe


CT is Nagato’s only option as I don’t buy him Susano’o absorption and Sasuke might be able to destroy the core


Sasuke more than not

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Aug 3, 2020)

Sasuke obliterates Nagato with Susanoo’s complete body (PS). Not sure why there’s a movement he doesn’t have it when Sasuke explicitly stated it’s the same thing Madara did in the past.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Siskebabas (Aug 3, 2020)

While i could easily see sasuke losing few rounds, but as other have said, PS maybe is too much for him, so wins majority


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## Quipchaque (Aug 3, 2020)

At that point in time Sasuke has comparable feats and thus amounts of chakra to Madara. He should take this and sent this imposter packing.


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## Draco Bolton (Aug 3, 2020)

Bansho Tenin GG.

Sasuke is the nail, Susano the board.

Then without Susano, Asura/Preta/Human Path combo troll Sasuke.

Sasuke's trump card is the speed of his Susano which seems very high given his fight against Juubito (even if we can also say that he has been boosted by Juugo/Naruto Senjutsu). He need to blitz Nagato before BT GG.

If Nagato knows a minimum the power of an EMS then he will bring out the heavy artillery to busy Susano before Sasuke even uses it. Cerberus, Mazo, CT. Sasuke can destroy them, but it won't be instantaneous. At some point Nagato will have the opportunity to use BT GG without being killed first.

Nagato win.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ultrafragor (Aug 3, 2020)

So, if Nagato can rip the cloak off of V2 B before actually taking danage from a lariat, then tell me again why we think Nagato won't just succ any of Susano'o's weapons or strikes? 

"It's too fast/hard" literally doesn't work here.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Bonly (Aug 3, 2020)

PS is too much for Nagato to deal with and he'd get overwhelmed but that's all Sasuke's got to win so it depends on if Sasuke uses it in enough time


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## MYGod000 (Aug 3, 2020)

sorry...But Sasuke would need to  Pull Out PS with EMS which he just doesn't have.


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## ZmkSc (Aug 3, 2020)

Ultrafragor said:


> So, if Nagato can rip the cloak off of V2 B before actually taking danage from a lariat, then tell me again why we think Nagato won't just succ any of Susano'o's weapons or strikes?
> 
> "It's too fast/hard" literally doesn't work here.


PS's shock waves is probably the only thing that Nagato has to worry about, Nagato can defend himself with ST but it has cool down and that is why Nagato may lose.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 3, 2020)

Nerfed EMS vs Rinnegan? Toughie

Oh and EMS Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo. Susanoo armor is just a step below Perfect Susanoo


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## cry77 (Aug 3, 2020)

Why cant Preta Path absorb the arrows? i think it can, and if so, Nagato wins. If not, he loses.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 3, 2020)

cry77 said:


> *Why cant Preta Path absorb the arrows?* i think it can, and if so, Nagato wins. If not, he loses.



 Even I have to admit that is a logical Argument.


Preta Path should be able to easily Absorb the Arrows from sasuke Susanoo.  Nagato can Rip out Sasuke's Soul. He makes his Susanoo virtually useless.

I think This is Valid as well...Should Preta Path Be able to Absorb Susanoo as well? Since it basically Just Chakra Being manifested.

Just food for thought.


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## ShadowBlade77 (Aug 4, 2020)

cry77 said:


> *Why cant Preta Path absorb the arrows?* i think it can, and if so, Nagato wins. If not, he loses.


Or repel them with Shinra Tensei.


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 4, 2020)

Nagato wins. Nothing Sasuke has can touch Nagato without getting absorbed, *Nothing*. Unless it's his kusanagi sword which Nagato counters with Asura Path.

Sasuke also doesn't have the speed feats for me to even believe he can blitz Nagato. 

As soon as Sasuke's techs touch Nagato, they get absorbed, no difficulty. If Nagato can eat all of V2 without getting injured from a lariat, then an arrow is doing squat to him.

His performance against Juubito that was on par with BSM Naruto was due to amps from BSM Naruto and a Jugo who was also being amped by BSM Naruto as well. 

If you think that Sasuke could go from silently asking himself how Naruto could wield so much chakra and envying his BM FORM ALONE THREE TIMES, to being on par with him in BSM without thinking that the amps that he got were what put him on that level, then you're delusional. These amps have always been major boosts, and they didn't stop being major boosts during the fight against Juubito.


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 4, 2020)

Sasuke wins. 
Sasuke was able to defend against jubbito and landing attacks on him. Nagato doesn't come close to that in any regard

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Aug 4, 2020)

Sasuke blitzes with EMS-enhanced striking speed. 

Nagato won't be able to muster up any proper defense in time.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 4, 2020)

The_Conqueror said:


> Sasuke wins.
> Sasuke was able to defend against jubbito and landing attacks on him. Nagato doesn't come close to that in any regard




That's not a fair assessment.  the only time He legitimately Got a hit on Juubi obito was during their last attack...which Obito used Blade of Nunokobu. where he literally just challenged their attacks, If he had a mind to Obito could have easily dodged their attacks tbh. 

the other time was thanks to Minato and Tobirama teleporting  Juubi Obito into the attack.  

Sasuke would be able to follow Nagato's Movements and react to him...but Nagato's power is just too much for him to over come. Preta path makes all of Sasuke jutsu useless. 

 Shinra Tensei makes Taijutsu and Ninjutsu useless.  While Fully healthy and Prime Nagato is going to have full mobility, not like how he has when he was edo.


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## Raiken (Aug 4, 2020)

People need to stop giving Sasuke the feats against Juubito.

Sasuke was augmented by the most powerful variation of the Kyuubi Chakra Cloak there.

Kakashi with a much weaker boost empowered his Kamui enough to be able to warp the Hachibi in and out and was stated by Kakashi to be a 3x boost.

Obviously EMS Sasuke >>> WA Kakashi in Chakra Capacity.

But the Yin+Yang Kyuubi Chakra Cloak >>>> the boost Kakashi got.

The Susano'o against Juubito is a Kyuubi Chakra Cloak Augmented V3, and should not be attributed to EMS Sasuke w/o the Cloak.

And you can't attribute ISO feats to Sasuke on his own either since that's combined with Naruto's BSM.

*EMS Sasuke's best solo feats are the V4 against the Zetsu Clones and the V3 Enton Arrow against the Juubi.*

It's probably fair to give him the Legged V3, but a smaller one comparable in size to Madara's, not the Bijuu sized one with the Kyuubi Chakra Cloak.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Quipchaque (Aug 4, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nerfed EMS vs Rinnegan? Toughie
> 
> Oh and EMS Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo. Susanoo armor is just a step below Perfect Susanoo



But then you would have to ask how did he get perfect Susano'o in his battles against Kaguya and Naruto? Surely not because of the Rinnegan or six paths chakra?


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## Stonaem (Aug 4, 2020)

Bonly said:


> PS is too much for Nagato to deal with and he'd get overwhelmed but that's all Sasuke's got to win so it depends on if Sasuke uses it in enough time


Absorption?

He doesn't have to absorb all of PS (although he can), just the 2m² that are near him.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 4, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> But then you would have to ask how did he get perfect Susano'o in his battles against Kaguya and Naruto? Surely not because of the Rinnegan or six paths chakra?


I always assumed Sasuke would've developed Perfect Susanoo by that point even without Hagoromo. Possibly without wings tho

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Aug 4, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> I always assumed Sasuke would've developed Perfect Susanoo by that point even without Hagoromo. Possibly without wings tho



Yeah that is the thing. He kinda has to have it at that point against Obito. And the proof is the windowed platform in which perfect susanoo users typically camp. That doesn't exist in any version of susanno other than the perfect one.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

Nagato mid/high-diffs.

More than half of Sasuke's arsenal is nullified by the Preta Path. Nagato can yank Sasuke out of his Susanoo easily with Bansho Tenin. CQC is a definite no-no against the Shurado modifications + shared vision. Amaterasu is yet again absorbed, or if Nagato fancies adding a bit of spice to his combat style, Shinra Tensei.

Nagato's constant summon-spam will prove an issue to Sasuke. Sasuke's only option against those bothersome summonings (especially Cerberus) is Amaterasu, which means that he'd have to use that taxing technique 10+ times to only void Nagato's absurd amount of summons. That may impede his ability to efficiently maintain his Susanoo at its peak if he uses it way too much.

Nagato has never had to rely on speed to decimate his enemies, fair enough, but I'm not sure why there's the assumption that he, even in a *healthy *state, is slow as balls. When he was still crippled and white-haired, he casually backflipped and dodged a punch from Bijuu-cloak V2 Killer Bee (*before *the Lariat that Nagato ended up absorbing). Let me reiterate, this happened while he was still *crippled*. I'm not saying his healthy version will have god-tier speed, but I'm saying that he should at least be able to keep up with EMS Sasuke.

The only thing that Sasuke actually threatens Nagato with is the shockwave generated by the Susanoo's sword swing (not the sword itself), and even then, there are still possible counters Nagato could employ against that, such as Shinra Tensei to deflect and dissipate the chakra in the sword, or taking the sword head-on with the Preta Path before those shockwaves can even be generated (to the same effect when Nagato absorbed Bee's Lariat, and completely bypassed the damage and effects of the Lariat altogether).

Reactions: Like 4


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> People need to stop giving Sasuke the feats against Juubito.



No, they need to start giving him those feats.

This whole ''rawrr Kyuubi cloak gave Saske legged Susano'o'' BS makes no sense and is backed up by nothing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

Sasuke fodderizes Nagato. My man @WorldsStrongest already explained how, but I might as well come back to kick some ass.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

@Kagutsutchi
@MYGod000
@Cryorex
@Halcyonite
@MaruUchiha
@Speedyamell

The rate n run squad 

Not one single argument from any of you as to how Nagato can magically react to shit way faster than his best feats 

Love the NBD man

Such jokers here


WorldsStrongest said:


> Juubito >=< BM/Susanoo strikes > BM/KCM shunshin >>> Raikages top speed >= Amaterasu >= Nagatos sensory amped reactions at their on panel peak


Stay mad boys 

Ignoring arguments doesnt make them go away 


Ultrafragor said:


> So, if Nagato can rip the cloak off of V2 B before actually taking danage from a lariat, then tell me again why we think Nagato won't just succ any of Susano'o's weapons or strikes?
> 
> *"It's too fast/hard" literally doesn't work here*.


Yes

Yes it is

Because comparing V2 Bees shunshin to strikes that were cornering Juubito is about the dumbest thing Ive ever seen anyone say this week

Nagato reacting to Bee in time to drain his chakra doesnt mean hes doing that to Susanoo

Might as well claim fucking Yoroi from the CE prelims can do that in responce to Rinnegan Sasukes Susanoo striking speed


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## Speedyamell (Aug 4, 2020)

Nagato claps. 
He floats in the air nullifying every and all of sasuke's attacks with preta while forming a meteor and then dropping it on sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Then we have this dude


MaruUchiha said:


> Nerfed EMS vs Rinnegan?


Who comes in here with the gall to suggest Sasukes EMS is nerfed, but Nagatos borrowed eyes arent and act like that levels the playing field

FOH 


MaruUchiha said:


> Oh and EMS Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo. Susanoo armor is just a step below Perfect Susanoo


Iso is stated to be PS in the guides and on panel

They are also visibly identical apart from the obvious fox shape Iso has

They are the same Jutsu

And even if they werent, Sasukes Legged Susanoo more than has the feats to neg with its sheer speed and raw power

That not a single Nagato nuthugger in here as actually provided even 1/10th of an argument for him being capable of even reacting to btw 

You know its bad when youve gotta call out the bias in other people for your own favorite character man


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Nagato claps.
> He floats in the air nullifying every and all of sasuke's attacks with preta while forming a meteor and then dropping it on sasuke.



Funny, the last time we saw a PS go up against meteors, PS won.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Nagato claps.


Against the guy he cant react to 


Speedyamell said:


> He floats in the air


Where hed never make it to and this ability didnt stop Sasuke from tagging the much stronger Juubito consistently 


Speedyamell said:


> nullifying every and all of sasuke's attacks with preta


Except for physical shockwaves that the kid has had since FKS 


Speedyamell said:


> while forming a meteor


Which he cant do 

And if youre referencing CT here, then Nagato gets slammed by his own damn debris if hes hanging out mid air genius

Sasuke also just negs the core with Susanoo 


Speedyamell said:


> then dropping it on sasuke


Which would never happen as Sasuke dudsts it long before then


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Still waiting for 1 argument that says Nagato can even react to Susanoo boys


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## Speedyamell (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Funny, the last time we saw a PS go up against meteors, PS won.


Are you by chance referring to rikudo sasuke's PS?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Are you by chance referring to rikudo sasuke's PS?



Yep, which went up against Ten-Tails Rinnegan Madara's meteors, which >>>>> Nagato's. 

There's another example, though. PS Madara hacked through his own meteors with a PS sword.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yep, which went up against Ten-Tails Rinnegan Madara's meteors, which >>>>> Nagato's.
> 
> There's another example, though. PS Madara hacked through his own meteors with a PS sword.


Great. Well EMS sasuke's susanoo scales to neither of those PS'


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Great. Well EMS sasuke's susanoo scales to neither of those PS'



EMS Sasuke has PS, so this is a weird argument for sure.

Nagato has no feats of summoning meteors either.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> EMS Sasuke has PS, so this is a weird argument for sure.
> 
> Nagato has no feats of summoning meteors either.


EMS sasuke having PS is different from EMS sasuke having PS that scales to madara's or that of his rikudo self.
There's no point in bringing up the feats of other susanoo to make an argument for sasuke.

Nagato can literally create meteors.. but I really was just being dramatic with my post. He negs sasuke twice as easily as he did kcm naruto and bee though..


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## Itachi san88 (Aug 4, 2020)

As usual, Nagato Preta Path negs all the top tiers jutsu in less than two seconds here, it seems And people still believe Rinnegan Madara's feats are transferable to Nagato....

If Sasuke can use PS (i think he can, even if his PS is weaker than Madara's PS), he wins. Without PS, he loses.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Against the guy he cant react to
> 
> Where hed never make it to and this ability didnt stop Sasuke from tagging the much stronger Juubito consistently
> 
> ...



It's funny how you're begging for us to justify Nagato's speed (which has been done), but you're the same with this bs claiming Nagato gets one-shot. Besides, Sasuke's own movement speed and the speed at which his Susanoo can swing its sword are very different things.

I already gave my argument earlier.



Itachi san88 said:


> As usual, Nagato Preta Path negs all the top tiers jutsu in less than two seconds here, it seems And people still believe Rinnegan Madara's feats are transferable to Nagato....



As per feats and portrayal, Preta Path has never failed in absorbing ninjutsu, no matter the size of the technique. Also, Preta Path doesn't scale in power in any way, so Nagato using Preta Path or Madara using Preta Path is no different.

Reactions: Like 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> It's funny how you're begging for us to justify Nagato's speed (*which has been done*)


No it hasnt 


Halcyonite said:


> but you're the same with this bs claiming Nagato gets one-shot.


Whats BS about the fact that Nagato has no chance at defending against PS level attacks that were cracking Juubitos TSBs and moving at speeds well above what nagato has teh feats to react to exactly?

Oh thats right

Nothing


Halcyonite said:


> Besides, Sasuke's own movement speed and the speed at which his Susanoo can swing its sword are very different things.


Never claimed otherwise and this is entirely irrelevant to my argument

Ive always explicitly stated its susanoo Nagato cant react to

Not Sasuke

Troll harder


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Preta Path doesn't scale in power in any way, so Nagato using Preta Path or Madara using Preta Path is no different.


This is also beyond stupid


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is also beyond stupid



I'm sorry I hurt your ego so much that you had to neg-rep me lol.

Me as well as others already spoke about how Nagato can defend to the single attack that actually does damage to Nagato (the PS sword swing). We're at an impasse then, I think that since a _white haired _Nagato dodged a hit from V2 Bee, a healthy Nagato with shared vision would barely be able to keep up with EMS Sasuke.

Besides, the Susanoo's speed won't even matter when Nagato immediately rips him out with BT, and an attack of any nature from Sasuke outside of Susanoo isn't going to do ANYTHING to Nagato, especially with his Shurado modifications, shared vision and Preta Path.

Also, if you're claiming that Preta Path scales in power, check your facts please.

Reactions: Like 2


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## blk (Aug 4, 2020)

Sasuke wins with moderate difficulty. 

As usual, Nagato doesn't have an effective answer to the bigger Susanoo versions.
PS/giant V4 (legged Susanoo) one shots or almost so.

How is it possible that the polls are almost equal?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> I'm sorry I hurt your ego


You didnt hurt anything aside from your own credibility dude

I neg fanfic claims

Refrain from them in the future and we wont have issues


Halcyonite said:


> Me as well as others already spoke about how Nagato can defend to the single attack that actually does damage to Nagato (the PS sword swing)


No actually you havent

Cuz he cant

Ive asked legit like 4 times now for a single argument against the speed gap here and youve put forth no such comment


Halcyonite said:


> I think that since a _white haired _Nagato dodged a hit from V2 Bee, a healthy Nagato with shared vision would barely be able to keep up with EMS Sasuke.


So

Your only argument is fanfic then?

Cuz nothing implies Nagato got any faster after absorbing Bees chakra

And certainly not to the degree youre suggesting here

What has Nagato ever done that suggests he can even react to speeds faster than the Raikage?

Beyond your own sad sack conjecture?

There is a MONSTROUS speed gap between barely reacting to V2 fucking Bee and EMS Sasukes susanoo strikes kiddo


Halcyonite said:


> Besides, the Susanoo's speed won't even matter when Nagato immediately rips him out with BT


Nagato wont be able to BT Sasuke in response to an attack that occurs faster than he can process a conscious thought dude

Check yourself

Susanoo itself can also defend against this tactic by weighting Sasuke down as shown against Danzo

Sasuke can also just cast Susanoo as Nagato pulls him, hes not limited to one per battle 


Halcyonite said:


> Also, if you're claiming that Preta Path scales in power, check your facts please.


If youre claiming Jutsu in general dont scale with power

Check your facts dude

Nagato goes from taking an extended period of time to eat a COR from Jiraiya to ending an entire V2 shroud from Bee much faster as his edo self

Its common fucking sense that a Jutsu scales to its user


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## Ultrafragor (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Because comparing V2 Bees shunshin to strikes that were cornering Juubito is about the dumbest thing Ive ever seen anyone say this week
> 
> Nagato reacting to Bee in time to drain his chakra doesnt mean hes doing that to Susanoo
> 
> Might as well claim fucking Yoroi from the CE prelims can do that in responce to Rinnegan Sasukes Susanoo striking speed



*Strikes that were amped by KN cloak and nature energy

So, not a good measure for where Sasuke actually stands.



Alleging Susano'o is way faster than V2 B. What a claim.

Reactions: Like 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Ultrafragor said:


> Strikes that were amped by KN cloak and nature energy


Both of which are amps he outdoes solo when he makes Iso

And Sasuke was also shown dealing with Obitos shit with Susanoo before being amped actually

So this isnt an argument


Ultrafragor said:


> Alleging Susano'o is way faster than V2 B. What a claim.


Suggesting a dude who was keeping pace with KCM users and FTG attacks doesnt have a Jutsu faster than V2 Bee

What utter trash of a claim

Oh wait

Its UF

Let the fanfic begin I suppose


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## Ultrafragor (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Both of which are amps he outdoes solo when he makes Iso



*both of which come pre-installed when he uses Iso



> And Sasuke was also shown dealing with Obitos shit with Susanoo before being amped actually



"dealing with"

dear lord



> Suggesting a dude who was keeping pace with KCM users and FTG attacks doesnt have a Jutsu faster than V2 Bee



A younger version of Killer B reacted to a FTG blitz in base. So what scaling is stopping an older, V2 B from fighting at that level?

Lol, fucking KCM? So, bijuu chakra? The shit B is using?


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You didnt hurt anything aside from your own credibility dude
> 
> I neg fanfic claims
> 
> ...



I'm not sure why you view it as fanfic though? It happened in the manga. I don't understand your stance. You're acting like I'm trying to justify Katsuyu being faster than Madara, when in reality the difference that you see between Nagato and Sasuke wouldn't be _near_ that level of difference. I, for that matter, don't think its that different at all. Realistically, the neg-rep wasn't even necessary, I don't see how anything of what I'm saying is fanfic. Why come on a debate page if you're not gonna expect any debate?

It's common sense that a crippled person would be slower than a healthy person. Crippled Nagato couldn't even stand up straight without clutching onto Itachi, and then we have him backflipping out of V2 Bee's way when he was pressed. It doesn't need to be proverbially stamped on your forehead for you to understand that a *Healthy, uncontrolled *Nagato would be miles faster at reacting than that.

I've given you my argument. Look at the panel before he catches the Lariat to absorb it. White-haired Nagato dodges a hit from V2 Bee. Bee has to be at similar speeds to the Raikage in order to sync their Lariats. A Healthy Nagato, uncontrolled, with shared vision, ... would naturally be a lot faster than that.

Why are you now generalising the scaling of power to all techniques? Not all techniques are the same, not at all. Preta Path has never scaled in size (size of it being cast) or 'power', if you'd call it that. Madara absorbing Onoki's Dust Release looked around the same speed of all other Preta Path showings. The difference in speed between Jiraiya's large Rasengan and V2 Bee being absorbed was very slight, and you can probably attribute that minimal difference to the mass (not the concentration of chakra).


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## MYGod000 (Aug 4, 2020)

If EMS Sasuke can use PS then that a difference story...but we've not seen His PS. 

The Databooks List only Madara as the sole user of that Jutsu.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> I'm not sure why you view it as fanfic though?


Because nothing youre suggesting has any basis in teh manga

It is the very definition of fanfic

All you are doing is arguing with your own conjecture on LITERALLY every point

You havent given one actual piece of evidence for anything youre claiming 


Halcyonite said:


> You're acting like I'm trying to justify Katsuyu being faster than Madara


Youre trying to justify 1 character to be faster than he was shown to be in canon

That is no less wrong than this exaggerated example


Halcyonite said:


> when in reality the difference that you see between Nagato and Sasuke wouldn't be near that level of difference


It is

It is that level of a difference and Ive already outlined this to you


Halcyonite said:


> I, for that matter, don't think its that different at all.


Dont really care what you think

The facts are the facts


WorldsStrongest said:


> Juubito >=< BM/Susanoo strikes > BM/KCM shunshin >>> Raikages top speed >= Amaterasu >= Nagatos sensory amped reactions at their on panel peak


This chain is shown directly to us in canon

Nagato, even with his sensory ability going for him, doesnt have any feats on par with or better than the Raikages top speed, blatanly doesnt exist.

KCm Naruto was shown drastically superior to the Raikages top speed, and its shown that Narutos construct strikes are much faster than he himself can move, same with Sasukes and both are shown on par with one another and able to reliably tag and pressure JJ Obito who is literally in another dimension of power compared to Nagato.

Obito even before becoming a Juubi Jin is stated superior to Nagato...And hsi feats more than demonstrate this.

Yet youre gonna claim that a guy who could box with Nagatos superior while said superior was on Six Paths roids is slow enough for Nagato and his shit feats to react to?

With literally no compelling basis at all aside from your headcanon?

Youre damn right I negged you


Halcyonite said:


> Realistically, the neg wasn't even necessary


Refer above


Halcyonite said:


> Why come on a debate page if you're not gonna expect any debate?


I do expect a debate

IM NOT GETTING ONE

IM GETTING BULLSHIT AND THE OUTRIGHT REFUSAL TO ADHERE TO CANON

Hence the neg


Halcyonite said:


> It's common sense that a crippled person would be slower than a healthy person


Physically yes

Not with their magic eyes and sensing powers tho

And Nagato doesnt even have the feats to make a mental reaction


Halcyonite said:


> Crippled Nagato couldn't even stand up straight without clutching onto Itachi


His inability to stand literally makes no difference to his mental reaction speed

And even if it did, you have yet to prove its to the extent youre suggesting it is


Halcyonite said:


> It doesn't need to be proverbially stamped on your forehead for you to understand that a *Healthy, uncontrolled *Nagato with shared vision would be miles faster at reacting than that.


Ive never disputed Nagato is faster than his white haird self dude

What Ive challenged is your ceiling on it and why you think its enough to react to Sasuke

Because nothing at all indicates it is

You cant take a character who is established to be weaker than in their prime and then scale their prime version wherever the fuck is convenient for your argument without cause

If you could, i could just as easily say Prime Hanzo or Healthy Itachi neg Kaguya and both are much faster than she is and can easily react to her

And this is a bullshit claim as nothing at all implies that


Halcyonite said:


> I've given you my argument.


No youve given me your conjecture based on nothing

I want your evidence for where your conclusion lands and I dont want it to come from your anal cavity


Halcyonite said:


> Look at the panel before he catches the Lariat to absorb it. White-haired Nagato dodges a hit from V2 Bee.


No he doesnt

And regardless, dodging V2 bee is literally nothing to this level of speed

In terms of speed

Mastered KCM Naruto >>> V2 Raikage >>> V1 Raikage > Initial KCM Naruto >>> Kisames reaction time > V2 Bee

As per feats

And KCM Naruto is much slower than Sasukes Susanoo...By like a lot

You still have yet to explain to me how a dude goes from having issues with V2 Bee levels of speed to reacting to JJ level speeds aside from "hes healthy now"

You see how stupid that shit sounds now?

"Hes healthy now so he can do it" is literally your entire argument


Halcyonite said:


> Bee has to be at similar speeds to the Raikage in order to sync their Lariats.


Which entails the Raikage lowering his own speeds

And the Raikage has only ever used Lariat alongside Bee in V1, not V2

So at best you could make the argument Bee is comparable to the dudes V1 speeds


Halcyonite said:


> Why are you now generalising the scaling of power to all techniques?


All Jutsu scale with their user

This shit is common fucking sense


Halcyonite said:


> Preta Path has never scaled in size or 'power', if you'd call it that.


Yeah

Yeah it has

Legit have you an example


Halcyonite said:


> Madara absorbing Onoki's Dust Release looked around the same speed of all other Preta Path showings


Madara who was fucking around with the Kage you mean


Halcyonite said:


> The difference in speed between Jiraiya's large Rasengan and V2 Bee being absorbed was very slight


No actually it wasnt

But okay


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Ultrafragor said:


> both of which come pre-installed


No actually they dont

He visibly loses both amps

So cool fanfic


Ultrafragor said:


> dealing with


Yes

Dealing with

He flat out reacts and outspeeds him and blocks his attacks with Susanoo and lands his own strikes with Susanoo multiple times


Ultrafragor said:


> A younger version of Killer B reacted to a FTG blitz


No actually he didnt

Not until after it has occurred 

And Minato flat out states he didnt have KI


Ultrafragor said:


> what scaling is stopping an older, V2 B from fighting at that level?


Just the fact that V2 Bee got reacted to physically by fucking fodder like Kisame

Kisame who couldnt react to even virgin KCM even remotely 

Establishing a clear speed hierarchy and hardcap for Bee 


Ultrafragor said:


> Lol, fucking KCM? So, bijuu chakra? The shit B is using?


> Comparing Kurama chakra to Gyuki chakra

Dumbest shit Ive read since the last thing you typed

Youre on a roll man


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> If EMS Sasuke can use PS then that a difference story...but we've not seen His PS


Yeah

Yeah we have

When he made Iso

Which is PS


MYGod000 said:


> The Databooks List only Madara as the sole user of that Jutsu.


This logic is stupid as it doesnt list Rinnegan Sasuke or Indra or Kakashi as PS users either

When we know theyve all used it on panel

So what now chief?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

I also love how all the nagato stans in here are desperately trying to prove that Iso isnt PS as if it helps Nagatos chances 

Its like...Ok fine...Lets pretend Iso isnt PS for a second even tho they are identical and stated to be the same thing in the guides and the same shit is implied by multiple characters in the manga...Sure why not

Sasuke STILL has an Armored Susanoo (1 step below PS to make yall feel good about yourselves) thats on par with freaking BSM Kurama in size and power 

A Version of susanoo more powerful than the Legged version he was just using that was dicing massive chakra absorbing Shinju roots, and swapping hands with JJ Obito

Wanna explain to me why thats any better for Nagato exactly 

Just cuz we dont call it "PS"


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Because nothing youre suggesting has any basis in teh manga
> 
> It is the very definition of fanfic
> 
> ...



To the points I argued in response to the thread, I did use sources from the manga. I used my example pertaining to V2 Bee to refer to the speeds. I referenced all of the Preta Path showings for what you said about it. My conjecture wasn't unaccompanied with references to the manga, I just didn't pepper the evidence throughout my entire paragraph, mentioning it once was enough.

There is VISUAL proof that crippled Nagato dodged V2 Bee's punch, and you just said "No he doesn't". I have the panel right fucking in front of me. It's canon. What's the point of giving any kind of comment or evidence if I just get a bullshit response like that?

Base Bee still kept up with Ay's cloak-enhanced running speed, Ay wouldn't have had to lower his speed a whole bunch. Their whole teamwork is based on them being at similar speeds in order to work effectively.

Not all ninjutsu is inherently the same. I said that, and you still come out with "all jutsu scales with its user" again. I already rebuttled your Rasengan/V2 Bee comparison. The Rasengan had a larger mass, whereas all of V2 Bee's volatile chakra was smaller and concentrated, allowing for quicker absorption. >>> Large Rasengan is the only anomaly of all other Preta Path showings. Do you really want to argue that Large Rasengan has more chakra than V2 Bee cloak? If not, then that proves the mass was a factor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 4, 2020)

@WorldsStrongest
>Claims Nagato is his favorite character
>Neg nukes users that rate him and Rinnegan fairly
Just change your fav character to Sasuke, Madara, A4, Mu, and Onoki already



WorldsStrongest said:


> Who comes in here with the gall to suggest Sasukes EMS is nerfed, but Nagatos borrowed eyes arent and act like that levels the playing field
> 
> FOH


Sure you can call it a "nerfed Rinnegan", but even a nerfed one shits on a nerfed EMS
Rikudou Rinnegan > Rinnegan, or "nerfed Rinnegan " > EMS > Nerfed EMS


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> I did use sources from the manga


Not in any replies to me you didnt


Halcyonite said:


> I used my example pertaining to V2 Bee to refer to the speeds.


V2 Bee which Ive handheld you through being a useless metric of comparison no less than 3 times now


Halcyonite said:


> I referenced all of the Preta Path showings for what you said about it


With more conjecture

Stronger Rinnegan users are shown absorbing much more powerful and plentiful chakra literally all the time

Nagato has better feats than Pain does

Momoshiki is shown neg diff eating entire super dense TBBs in an instant

Sasuke drains the Bijus dry in like 1 panel

Etc

And again, it is common sense for a Jutsu to be more powerful and effective in the handsof superior users.

Nagato himself is using nerfed Rinnegan capability from the jump as his eyes arent his own ffs

Theres a precedence for Jutsu scaling to their user


Halcyonite said:


> My conjecture wasn't unaccompanied with references to the manga


99% of the time it was


Halcyonite said:


> There is VISUAL proof that crippled Nagato dodged V2 Bee's punch


No actually theres not

In my panels

*Link Removed* *Link Removed*

I dont see Nagato dodging a strike

And again, for the umpteeth fucking time...

KILLER BEE DOESNT MATTER ON THE LEVEL OF SPEED WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE

Reacting to bee doesnt mean SHIT for Nagato

Ive already given him more credit than Bee levels of speed from fucking jump street, I had Nagatos reactions on par with Amaterasu give or take which is almost as fast as V2 A who is much faster than Bee is. Go to the very first comment on the first page...Actually dont Ill do it for you


WorldsStrongest said:


> Raikages top speed >= Amaterasu >= Nagatos sensory amped reactions at their on panel peak


Im asking you to prove why you think being debatably faster than V2 Bee is enough to deal with Susanoo strikes

When it isnt

Not even fucking close in the manga

And all you keep coming to me with is this stupid "nagato not healthy, nagato dodge V2 Bee, Nagato healthy, Nagato dodge JJ level stuff" bullshit

You have given literally zero reason for your jump in scale there at all


Halcyonite said:


> Base Bee still kept up with Ay's cloak-enhanced running speed,


No he didnt

At all

*Link Removed*

Bee doesnt keep pace with A in base ever

This is BS


Halcyonite said:


> Ay wouldn't have had to lower his speed a whole bunch


Yay for more conjecture

All Halcyonite can do apparently

This is also flat out bullshit as V2 bee is PROVEN slower than KCM Naruto who V1 A was PROVEN faster than

Ive also already brought this up


WorldsStrongest said:


> Mastered KCM Naruto >>> V2 Raikage >>> V1 Raikage > Initial KCM Naruto >>> Kisames reaction time > V2 Bee
> 
> As per feats
> 
> ...





Halcyonite said:


> Their whole teamwork is based on them being at similar speeds


Doesnt really fucking matter as we know the Raikage holds back on speed

As we know that hes much faster than even V2 Bee at nowhere near his own fastest mode PER FEATS


Halcyonite said:


> Not all ninjutsu is inherently the same


So prove Pretas the exception dude

You havent done that yet


Halcyonite said:


> I already rebuttled your Rasengan/V2 Bee comparison


Poorly 

With more conjecture


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> @WorldsStrongest
> >Claims Nagato is his favorite character


He is

I just dont wank my favorite characters


MaruUchiha said:


> >Neg nukes users that rate him and Rinnegan fairly


I neg people who claim BS over manga fact actually

Regardless of the character they do it in favor of

Ive negged you for your Sasuke opinions where you place the dude HIGHER THAN I DO and Ive done so MULTIPLE fucking times

Refer to your every stupid Part 1 Kids opinion threads


MaruUchiha said:


> Sure you can call it a "nerfed Rinnegan"


Thatd be calling it what it fucking is

Borrowed eyes are unable to use the eyes full power, canon concept

Edo Rinnegan is also stated to nerf the eyes, canon concept

Nagato has a nerfed Rinnegan

Get the fuck over it and stop being such a goddamn hypocrite dude 


MaruUchiha said:


> even a nerfed one shits on a nerfed EMS


No actually it doesnt, considering the weakest EMS user weve ever seen was throwing hands with a JJ

And EMS Madaras casual feats shit on Nagatos best feats

Also dont get why youre calling Sasukes EMS "nerfed"

Cuz it isnt


MaruUchiha said:


> Rikudou Rinnegan > Rinnegan


No ones talking about Rikudo buffs here dude

Rinnegan in pre JJ Madaras hands is already more powerful than in Nagatos

By like a fuckton

Obito had issues dealing with 5 Biju with his Gedo power, which is directly stated to be superior to Nagatos Gedo power with even just 1 goddamn eye, Madara NEGGED ALL 9 BIJU AT ONCE with Gedo powers and only 1 eye

Theres an ocean of difference between even Nagato and Obito. Let alone Nagato and the OG user.


MaruUchiha said:


> "nerfed Rinnegan " > EMS > Nerfed EMS


> Keeps suggesting a nerfed Rinnegan isnt real
> Keeps suggesting Nagato can beat EMS Madara or Sasuke despite fighting a JJ amped Rinnegan user stated stronger than Nagato in fucking base
> Keeps suggesting Sasukes EMS is "nerfed" but wont say how or why

This is why no one takes you seriously bud

Trash debating as fucking always


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

@WorldsStrongest, why are you endorsing their myth that Sasuke didn't have Perfect Susano'o?  is literally an application of . That's how as the  Madara did - .


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 4, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @WorldsStrongest, why are you endorsing their myth that Sasuke didn't have Perfect Susano'o?


Im not

Im saying even if we PRETEND its not the other side still has no argument 


WorldsStrongest said:


> I also love how all the nagato stans in here are desperately trying to prove that Iso isnt PS as if it helps Nagatos chances
> 
> Its like...Ok fine..*.Lets pretend Iso isnt PS* for a second even tho they are identical and stated to be the same thing in the guides and the same shit is implied by multiple characters in the manga...Sure why not


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## Halcyonite (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not in any replies to me you didnt
> 
> V2 Bee which Ive handheld you through being a useless metric of comparison no less than 3 times now
> 
> ...



Examples are examples, it doesn't matter what you may think of them when you said I gave _nothing, _when that's false.

Momoshiki's Rinnegan has a highly specialised function of absorbing through one hand and regurgitating back through the other. It's a different case to the Rinnegan Nagato/Madara possesses.

Nagato was directly behind Bee in that panel. Then as soon as Bee assumes V2 form, he tries to punch Nagato, misses, and then hits the ground as a result. Nagato is clearly shown a distance further from Bee, which definitively means that he dodged it.

Well, que sera, sera. You might complain that all I say is conjecture, I can say that a lot of what you've said is complain about conjecture and react in a hostile way to me and many other "Nagato stans". You are giving examples to what you say though, so that's something at least.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 4, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not
> 
> Im saying even if we PRETEND its not the other side still has no argument



And we shouldn't pretend their pretenses are fact. We should browbeat them into accepting reality.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 5, 2020)

unless Sasuke has PS then he is losing this fight.

Naruto was Amp everyone with his chakra so...It unfair to give Sasuke that feat that he only was able to do with Naruto's Help.


Ask yourself why didn't he pull PS out earlier if he had it? it's no coincidence that he fought Juubi obito who was the Strongest Foe they had fought with an inferior Susanoo than PS.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> EMS sasuke having PS is different from EMS sasuke having PS that scales to madara's or that of his rikudo self.
> There's no point in bringing up the feats of other susanoo to make an argument for sasuke.
> 
> Nagato can literally create meteors.. but I really was just being dramatic with my post. He negs sasuke twice as easily as he did kcm naruto and bee though..



No, it isn't. How is it different? It's the same freaking jutsu, m9. 

Nagato gets negged.


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## Android (Aug 5, 2020)

This thread @>@

@Aegon Targaryen 

I don't question Sasuke's ability to use PS, i question his ability to use PS on his own.

When Kyuubi-Susanoo blade clashed with Obito's Nonoboki sword, it didn't disintegrate despite Sasuke's already lost the CS power. That means his PS was somehow enhanced by Naruto's BSM chakra. What do you think?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> This thread @>@
> 
> @Aegon Targaryen
> 
> I don't question Sasuke's ability to use PS, i question his ability to use PS on his own



Um, what? That sounds contradictory lol.



Hellraiser said:


> When Kyuubi-Susanoo blade clashed with Obito's Nonoboki sword, it didn't disintegrate despite Sasuke's already lost the CS power. That means his PS was somehow enhanced by Naruto's BSM chakra. What do you think?



It was, yes. Why is that relevant though?


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## Android (Aug 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Um, what? That sounds contradictory lol.


No, i mean without being buffed.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It was, yes. Why is that relevant though?


If he was buffed, then that "PS" feat shouldn't be used for a non-buffed Sasuke.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> No, i mean without being buffed



Without being buffed, Sasuke's PS can be powerscaled using Madara's, which canonically is a mountain slasher.

Sasuke, unlike Madara (at least going by feats), can also amp PS using Ninjutsu.



Hellraiser said:


> If he was buffed, then that "PS" feat shouldn't be used for a non-buffed Sasuke.



What PS feat am I using?


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## Android (Aug 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Without being buffed, Sasuke's PS can be powerscaled using Madara's, which canonically is a mountain slasher.
> 
> Sasuke, unlike Madara (at least going by feats), can also amp PS using Ninjutsu.


Your scale is based on what exactly?
The only time Sasuke used PS armor he was buffed. What leads you to believe he can use PS w/o BSM chakra?


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 5, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not one single argument from any of you as to how Nagato can magically react to shit way faster than his best feats


I did have an argument though, you just chose to ignore it.

Not my problem that you won't acknowledge Sasuke's boosts as massive and that you choose to believe that the guy who was earlier complaining that Naruto was wielding so much chakra suddenly starts performing on his level without the boosts that he got being the reason for it. When even the Databook acknowledges that form of Sasuke.



WorldsStrongest said:


> @Kagutsutchi
> @MYGod000
> @Cryorex
> @Halcyonite
> ...


You've personally nuke neg repped me three times in less than a week all without interacting with me. Take what you give out.





> Such jokers here


Do the same thing as we do more times than us and before we do it yet claim we are jokers for doing it. Worldstrongest everyone



> Stay mad boys
> 
> Ignoring arguments doesnt make them go away


Okay. Take your own advice though lol.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 5, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Realistically, the neg-rep wasn't even necessary


WS is a troll. He can hardly ever make good arguments so he resorts to heavy negging people who disagree with him just because..
If only his intelligence was half his negging power..

Reactions: Like 2


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## Speedyamell (Aug 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, it isn't. How is it different? It's the same freaking jutsu, m9.


Lmao what? Susanoo being the same jutsu doesn't mean all characters have comparable susanoo lol.
Even with lesser versions sasuke's susanoo variants were never comparable to madara's in size so it makes no sense to transfer madara's feats with PS to him


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## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2020)

I dont believe unamped Sasuke has Iso/PS but he still smashes here

Susanoo slashes that were tagging JJ means Nagato is going down to a spam of shockwaves which he can counter only once in 5 seconds with ST, as Preta cant absorb pure air pressure and debris

Legged Susanoo also protects Sasuke from anything bar CT which Nagato wont really get an opportunity to use due to Legged Susanoo's striking speed

Sasuke takes it mid diff IMO


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 5, 2020)

Nagato has no answer to Juubi fight Susanoo.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 5, 2020)

Sasukes armored PS was the result of BSM Naruto chakra amp.

Which it can't be used as feat to scale him because he was enhanced.  That the he never used it prior when he was also getting killed against his most powerful Opponent at that time V1 Juubi Obito.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 5, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Bansho Tenin GG.
> 
> Sasuke is the nail, Susano the board.
> 
> ...



Except it doesnt work like that. The Susanoo would be the nail, not Sasuke himself. 

If that's JJ fight Sasuke, then he wins due to possessing Jugo's senjutsu chakra.


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## Draco Bolton (Aug 5, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Except it doesnt work like that. The Susanoo would be the nail, not Sasuke himself.


Why. Sasuke is the one who is inserted inside Susano. Just like the nail stuck inside the board.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 5, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Why. Sasuke is the one who is inserted inside Susano. Just like the nail stuck inside the board.



The nail wasnt covered under the board. If Sasuke is covered by Susanoo, Bansho Tenin would attract Susanoo, not Sasuke.


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## Draco Bolton (Aug 5, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> The nail wasnt covered under the board. If Sasuke is covered by Susanoo, Bansho Tenin would attract Susanoo, not Sasuke.


Nagato used BT on a rock underwater (In the manga we just see the rock arriving, since we are in doubt, I base myself on the anime (non-filler episode) that brought the rock entirely out of the water (he was totally underwater). It just expands on what happened in manga. Manga doesn't contradict this in any way. Free to disagree, to me anime clarifies).

Nagato can selectively attract small targets while not affecting the gravity around them.

BT is an immaterial force of the nature.

So Nagato can still extract Sasuke inside Susano. The example of the rock under the water proves that even covered with something, Nagato can aim at a specific point

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Aug 5, 2020)

Nagato takes it with BT into Preta into soulrip combo, I believe.
If Sasuke has PS, it's sword gets deflected back at Sasuke with ST to create an opening.

I dunno why people think Nagato has amaterasu level reactions and speed, I mean, he got hit by it, but he was cripple and a mere puppet; iirc, he wasn't expecting Itachi was gonna use amterasu on him and his summons either. He sensed it in time to even warn Naruto and Bee about it, meaning even as a cripple puppet he can still sense and react to it, which means that, even with gray hair, Nagato has V2 Ei4 reactions. When he absorbed some chakra from Hachibi and Bee, he was fast enough to blitz both Bee and KCM Nardo at the same time. But he was still a cripple puppet that couldn't even use his legs nor his mind properly.

I remember Rinnegan Obito having trouble tagging KCM Nardo, Bee, Base Gai and Kakashi, altho the later 2 (which would go down with a random ST used by cripple Nagato) were already exhausted after fighting V2 Jins an the 7SoTM for hours. Kamui was a nonfactor too, such as you see here:

Nagato will beat EMS Sasuke Mid-diff at worst.


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## Charmed (Aug 5, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> BT is an immaterial force of the nature.
> 
> So Nagato can still extract Sasuke inside Susano.


Yeah, that's for sure!


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## MYGod000 (Aug 5, 2020)

CT, BT, ST, Soul Rip, Combo is just too much for this Newly Acquired EMS Sasuke to deal with at this time.  If he was older and had time to Develop this Susanoo More then yeah...I see him winning, but he doesn't. 


Nagato wins Mid diff


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## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

A lot of the folks who argued EMS Sasuke's victory focused entirely on speed, or that speed was the sole element of their argument. Obviously this is a sound way of deducing the outcome of a fight, but not when you neglect every other factor in a fight. Compare it to single-body Nagato's *only* showing in battle. The *only* time we saw single-body Nagato in action, he was up against people who were undoubtedly one of the *fastest* shinobi at that moment in time, KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. The outcome was that he fodderised them before Itachi's intervention. Speed is *NOT* the only deciding factor of a battle. All these one-shot/neg/obliterating comments effectively ignore every other factor that decides a battle's outcome.

It's been hammered home many times that Nagato didn't need high movement speed in order to wreak havoc; his insane sensory capabilities in conjunction with shared vision (along with his speed feat as a cripple against V2 Bee, but we'll ignore that since its been ignored enough already) displayed this perfectly. His fighting style accommodates for the lack of mobility.

As for the Susanoo, whether its PS or a notch below PS, Nagato can swarm the Susanoo with his summons, he was never limited to summoning one at a time. Cerberus with 5 other summonings would pose a nuisance to the Susanoo, giving Nagato ample time to pull Sasuke with BT, or cast CT.

I never said Nagato takes this easily, he will have his hands full for sure. I just think the folks who say he gets one-shot are royally kidding themselves.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 5, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Nagato used BT on a rock underwater (In the manga we just see the rock arriving, since we are in doubt, I base myself on the anime (non-filler episode) that brought the rock entirely out of the water (he was totally underwater). It just expands on what happened in manga. Manga doesn't contradict this in any way. Free to disagree, to me anime clarifies).
> 
> Nagato can selectively attract small targets while not affecting the gravity around them.
> 
> ...


Either way pulling in Susanoo and absorbing it with Preta Path works too


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## Android (Aug 5, 2020)

You'd think that someone who can track the speed of a JJ would have no problem blitzing blind Madara with no effort. Only for him to be danced around by that very same blind Madara.

Then you go back and find out that this guy was wearing a Kyuubi cloak composed of both BM Naruto and BM Minato chakra.

Then you're not surprised any more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> You'd think that someone who can track the speed of a JJ would have no problem blitzing blind Madara with no effort. Only for him to be danced around by that very same blind Madara.
> 
> Then you go back and find out that this guy was wearing a Kyuubi cloak composed of both BM Naruto and BM Minato chakra.
> 
> Then you're not surprised any more.



Exactly. Speed is no where near as linear as folks in NBD make it out to be. Their reasoning chalks it all up as "Person A outsped Person B, who outsped Person C, which must mean that they are faster than Person XYZ". Not to mention the neglect over all other factors, such as the conditions of the fight, the temporary buffs they possess, and the health state of their opponent. 

Imagine getting called out for shit debating and conjecture, when that linear mentality is the backbone of half of their arguments.


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## Android (Aug 5, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Exactly. Speed is no where near as linear as folks in NBD make it out to be. Their reasoning chalks it all up as "Person A outsped Person B, who outsped Person C, which must mean that they are faster than Person XYZ". Not to mention the neglect over all other factors, such as the conditions of the fight, the temporary buffs they possess, and the health state of their opponent.
> 
> Imagine getting called out for shit debating and conjecture, when that linear mentality is the backbone of half of their arguments.


World's is a good debater.

He makes mistakes sometimes (don't we all?).

Like misconstrue EMS Sasuke's feats.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> World's is a good debater.
> 
> He makes mistakes sometimes (don't we all?).
> 
> Like misconstrue EMS Sasuke's feats.



I understand. I don't mean to disparage him or any others, I just didn't appreciate the hostility and the nuke neg-rep.

But like you said, we all make mistakes, including myself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 5, 2020)

These threads make me wonder, are there people here who think Nagato could take EMS Sasuke and the Gokage 6v1? 

Obviously, he loses to Sasuke or the Gokage, but the certainty of Nagato beating either with ease makes me wonder.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> These threads make me wonder, are there people here who think Nagato could take EMS Sasuke and the Gokage 6v1?
> 
> Obviously, he loses to Sasuke or the Gokage, but the certainty of Nagato beating either with ease makes me wonder.



Fair enough if you think Sasuke/Gokage 'obviously' wins, but that's an idle statement by itself.

No one said "with ease" either.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 5, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Nagato used BT on a rock underwater (In the manga we just see the rock arriving, since we are in doubt, I base myself on the anime (non-filler episode) that brought the rock entirely out of the water (he was totally underwater). It just expands on what happened in manga. Manga doesn't contradict this in any way. Free to disagree, to me anime clarifies).
> 
> Nagato can selectively attract small targets while not affecting the gravity around them.
> 
> ...



Manga is canon, anime isnt.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Manga is canon, anime isnt.



In the manga panel, water droplets are dripping opposite to the trajectory of the boulder.

Unless you think Kishimoto wanted it to seem like Nagato manifested a boulder out of thin air, I'm pretty sure Nagato pulled it out from underwater lmao


----------



## Kisame (Aug 5, 2020)

Sasuke wins.

Summons are easily countered by Enton, Aoda etc flight is countered by hawk flight, since Nagato isn't Edo CT/CST might take a toll on him (everytime he was living and used them they were said and shown to take a toll on his health, and before that he had barely knew of Rinnegan powers and couldn't finish off Hanzo) and Sasuke blocks those with his Susano'o and counters CT with Amaterasu if it comes out.

We saw how Nagato, despite showing superiority to Bee and tired-KCM Naruto, was embarrassed when Edo Itachi joined the team. Nagato's portrayal as an Edo that was juiced on Hachibi chakra (that is implied to have 'healed' him somewhat from his cripple state) is _decently_ below a team of Edo Itachi/Bee/tired-KCM Naruto - he didn't give them a high difficulty fight. Based on his feats the author leaves room for his big jutsu to be countered (CST didn't solo Team Itachi, CT was countered) even introducing the "every jutsu has a weakness trope" with his finisher and there are heavy implications that they take a toll on his health (funnily enough heavier implications than MS drawbacks).


----------



## Quad (Aug 5, 2020)

Does Nagato have all his summons? The dog can be atleast used for distraction.


----------



## Quad (Aug 5, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Manga is canon, anime isnt.


Is that a rule here?


----------



## Quad (Aug 5, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> These threads make me wonder, are there people here who think Nagato could take EMS Sasuke and the Gokage 6v1?
> 
> Obviously, he loses to Sasuke or the Gokage, but the certainty of Nagato beating either with ease makes me wonder.


Who said with ease?


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 5, 2020)

Shark said:


> Sasuke wins.
> 
> Summons are easily countered by Enton, Aoda etc flight is countered by hawk flight, since Nagato isn't Edo CT/CST might take a toll on him (everytime he was living and used them they were said and shown to take a toll on his health, and before that he had barely knew of Rinnegan powers and couldn't finish off Hanzo) and Sasuke blocks those with his Susano'o and counters CT with Amaterasu if it comes out.
> 
> We saw how Nagato, despite showing superiority to Bee and tired-KCM Naruto, was embarrassed when Edo Itachi joined the team. Nagato's portrayal as an Edo that was juiced on Hachibi chakra (that is implied to have 'healed' him somewhat from his cripple state) is _decently_ below a team of Edo Itachi/Bee/tired-KCM Naruto - he didn't give them a high difficulty fight. Based on his feats the author leaves room for his big jutsu to be countered (CST didn't solo Team Itachi, CT was countered) even introducing the "every jutsu has a weakness trope" with his finisher and there are heavy implications that they take a toll on his health (funnily enough heavier implications than MS drawbacks).



With the absurd number of summonings Nagato had at his disposal, it wouldn't be wise to Amaterasu all of them from the get-go, unless you want a then-fatigued Sasuke to fight a Nagato that sat back in his chameleon or wherever twiddling his thumbs. It is in-character for Nagato to summon-spam.

CST would definitely take a toll, but Nagato wouldn't need to resort to the level of power that destroyed Konoha. For most (if not all) of Sasuke's arsenal, the ST that pushed back the Boss summons would be _more_ than enough.

CT wouldn't take a toll nearly as much as CST. Even after 8-Tails Kurama broke out of CT, Nagato concluded that he would just have to enlargen the CT. Ergo, under normal circumstances, he most likely would have succeeded in making a much more efficient and larger CT, where he *wasn't *dying and exhausted from fighting off hundreds of people.

Using Amaterasu on CT may not be the wisest idea, unless Sasuke wants to be pulled towards his own flames and be simultaneously crushed and incinerated. Amaterasu would take a considerably long amount of time to burn through CT as well.

You highlight the setbacks of the opposing team i.e. "tired-KCM Naruto", but completely neglect all of Nagato's. Go figure. Let's not talk about the crippled and emaciated man who couldn't stand up straight without clutching onto Itachi. Let's also forget how Kabuto had assumed full control over Nagato once Itachi swapped sides. Let's ignore the fact that Nagato didn't even want to fight in the first place >>> He literally just lay there covered in Amaterasu while Itachi had a whole exposition dump about Shisui's life and Sasuke joining the Akatsuki to Naruto.

If he didn't have all of the aforementioned setbacks, it would most certainly be a high-difficulty fight. His setback-riddled self no-diffed KCM Naruto and Bee. It'd be ignorant to suggest that he would get low-diffed if he was relieved of those setbacks, and also bloodlusted.

CST was never used against Edo Itachi and the two Jinchuriki. CT was countered with their combined strength, something that EMS Sasuke couldn't hope to match with his arsenal of ninjutsu.

What are these implications that *all *Rinnegan abilities take a toll on his health? Enlighten me. The only ones made clear were CST and the Phantom Dragon technique. Both of these Rinnegan techniques were all-or-nothing techs that were drastically amped to dangerous levels. They have not been replicated since. His suffering, malnourished form, and coughing up blood throughout his life is a consequence of the latter technique.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 5, 2020)

Sasuke no-sells anything and everything Nagato throws at him.


----------



## Draco Bolton (Aug 6, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Manga is canon, anime isnt.





Draco Bolton said:


> It just expands on what happened in manga. Manga doesn't contradict this in any way. Free to disagree, to me anime clarifies).


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

@Hellraiser @Halcyonite @Speedyamell @King789 



Sasuke reacting to Ten-Tails Obito has NOTHING to do with Juugo or Naruto's powerups. It is entirely due to his EYES.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Hellraiser @Halcyonite @Speedyamell @King789
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke reacting to Ten-Tails Obito has NOTHING to do with Juugo or Naruto's powerups. It is entirely due to his EYES.



Not sure why I'm being @'ed, that wasn't my claim. I simply made a comment on how flawed this linear mentality on speed feats is.

Also, _only_ reacting compared to reacting and dodging/moving successfully are two different things.


----------



## Android (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Hellraiser @Halcyonite @Speedyamell @King789
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke reacting to Ten-Tails Obito has NOTHING to do with Juugo or Naruto's powerups. It is entirely due to his EYES.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

So? This is a living Sage Madara, and he himself praises Sasuke's eyes.


----------



## JayK (Aug 6, 2020)

Can't believe there are so many hacks thinking Nagato not just stands a slim chance but straight up wins.

Sasuke blitzes

no diff


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

JayK said:


> Can't believe there are so many hacks thinking Nagato not just stands a slim chance but straight up wins.
> 
> Sasuke blitzes
> 
> no diff



Calling us hacks while you use 'no diff' liberally, especially in a match-up that isn't even that far-fetched, is hilarious.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Calling us hacks while you use 'no diff' liberally, especially in a match-up that isn't even that far-fetched, is hilarious.



It is that farfetched. 

And I don't even like the guy.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It is that farfetched.
> 
> And I don't even like the guy.



It's just dishonest, if anything.

If the MU starts at 30 yards like the OP suggested, and Sasuke doesn't already have his Susanoo Sword fully formed, Nagato doesn't get immediately blitzed. The Boss Summon ST would yeet Sasuke kilometers away, giving Nagato ample time to set up with summons and so on. And even if he does have his Susanoo formed, that doesn't stop Nagato from using BT to yank him out of the Susanoo.

Realistically, the Susanoo Sword is the only thing in Sasuke's arsenal that will substantially damage Nagato. The rest is nullified by Preta or repelled by Deva.

I don't care if you think Sasuke wins, that's fair enough. I just think its hilarious that some people have chalked it up as a no-diff by focusing on speed and ignoring every single other factor possible.

Speed is only the means of Sasuke's victory if he can use it along with the weapon that will kill Nagato. Nagato is capable of preventing Sasuke's use of said weapon.
>>>>>
Sasuke can reach Nagato quickly, we all know that, but it doesn't mean anything if the Susanoo Sword required to injure Nagato (Legged V3 and up) hasn't even manifested. At that point, Sasuke catches a Shinra Tensei.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hellraiser just proved with that scan that you guys look at speed feats too linearly. EMS Sasuke reacted to JJ, sure, but also got danced around by Blind Madara. It's a joke how much emphasis you've placed on this one variable of speed to determine an entire battle, let alone it being a *no-diff. *This whole thread is a testament to that.


----------



## JayK (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> It's just dishonest, if anything.


The only thing dishonest here is thinking Nagato can compete against someone who's dealt with Hashi blitzing speed.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> It's just dishonest, if anything.
> 
> Hellraiser just proved with that scan that you guys look at speed feats too linearly. EMS Sasuke reacted to JJ, sure, but also got danced around by Blind Madara. It's a joke how much emphasis you've placed on this one variable of speed to determine an entire battle, let alone it being a *no-diff. *This whole thread is a testament to that.



What's dishonest is you using bLinD mAdArA as if he's some sort of anti-feat for Sasuke...even though this is a living Madara who is canonically superior to his Edo self physically and broke out of Hashirama's seal which restrained the Ten-Tails. And that was before he absorbed Sage chakra. Sasuke was able to step to a Sage Living Madara who >>> Living Madara who >> Edo Madara.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

JayK said:


> The only thing dishonest here is thinking Nagato can compete against someone who's dealt with Hashi blitzing speed.



Sasuke needs the Susanoo Sword to blitz and kill (nothing else in his arsenal touches Nagato) and Nagato would be able to pull off a Shinra Tensei before that fully forms. Unless you want him to blitz Nagato with a headbutt, that's not gonna end the fight.

And again, just because Sasuke has a feat of reacting to JJ, doesn't mean he no-diffs in this fight. Case and point is Blind Madara, and numerous other examples that disprove this dumb linearity.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> What's dishonest is you using bLinD mAdArA as if he's some sort of anti-feat for Sasuke...even though this is a living Madara who is canonically superior to his Edo self physically and broke out of Hashirama's seal which restrained the Ten-Tails. And that was before he absorbed Sage chakra. Sasuke was able to step to a Sage Living Madara who >>> Living Madara who >> Edo Madara.



Who tf said stepping up to Blind Madara wasn't impressive? Of course it was. But JJ > Blind Madara, which was the point being driven forward. Obsolete point.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> *But JJ > Blind Madara*, which was the point being driven forward. Obsolete point.



Proof of the following? Blind Madara had similar portrayal to Ten-Tails Obito, in that he obliterated Hashirama's seal just like that.

And that was before he acquired Hashirama's Sage chakra boost.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What's dishonest is you using bLinD mAdArA as if he's some sort of anti-feat for Sasuke...even though this is a living Madara who is canonically superior to his Edo self physically and broke out of Hashirama's seal which restrained the Ten-Tails. And that was before he absorbed Sage chakra. Sasuke was able to step to a Sage Living Madara who >>> Living Madara who >> Edo Madara.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof of the following? Blind Madara had similar portrayal to Ten-Tails Obito, in that he obliterated Hashirama's seal just like that.
> 
> And that was before he acquired Hashirama's Sage chakra boost.



How does obliterating Hashirama's seal correlate with speed? Not being argumentative.

While Blind Madara has sensory capabilities because of Sage Jutsu, Obito has other KK and abilities that contribute to greater speed and tracking feats. His MS alone (as he so claimed) allowed him to keep up with KCM2, and once he became Juubi Jinchuriki, he proceeded to dodge Susanoo strikes from EMS Sasuke, the person-in-question.
>>>>
The scan you provided showed Sasuke reacting to Juubito, but failing to connect.

Whereas, after getting danced around for a while, Sasuke finally managed to pierce through Madara's arm with his sword, to which Madara retorts with a compliment regarding Sasuke's movements. Sasuke (without Susanoo) successfully connected with Madara but Sasuke (with Susanoo) failed to against Juubito in that instance.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> How does obliterating Hashirama's seal correlate with speed? Not being argumentative



Because it signifies Madara got a huge power boost by coming back to life. That would include speed. 



Halcyonite said:


> While Blind Madara has sensory capabilities because of Sage Jutsu



Wrong. Blind Madara has sensory capabilities *outside of Sage Jutsu*. The Sage Jutsu just make him _better_.

Naruto's Sage Mode gave him a bigger amp to reflexes than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode did. Nine-Tails Chakra Mode allowed Naruto to react to the Fourth Raikage's maximum speed punch. Blind Madara *on his own* is already comparable to Sage Naruto in reflexes and in fact much better, even nearly blitzing the latter. Then you add* Hashirama's Sage chakra* on top of that.



Halcyonite said:


> Obito has other KK and abilities that contribute to greater speed and tracking feats. His MS alone (as he so claimed) allowed him to keep up with KCM2



_Edo_ Madara didn't seem particularly impressed by KCM2's speed and manhandled a KCM2 clone. Living Madara is MUCH faster.



Halcyonite said:


> and once he became Juubi Jinchuriki, he proceeded to dodge Susanoo strikes from EMS Sasuke, the person-in-question.
> >>>>
> The scan you provided showed Sasuke reacting to Juubito, but failing to connect



So? I'm not disputing Sasuke failed to connect, dawg. I'm just saying reacting to Ten-Tails Obito >>>> anything Nagato has done.



Halcyonite said:


> Whereas, after getting danced around for a while, Sasuke finally managed to pierce through Madara's arm with his sword, to which Madara retorts with a compliment regarding Sasuke's movements. Sasuke (without Susanoo) successfully connected with Madara but Sasuke (with Susanoo) failed to against Juubito in that instance.



Okay, so? How does this contradict anything I said? I believe Susano'o is faster than Sasuke himself.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So? This is a living Sage Madara, and he himself praises Sasuke's eyes.




Before He even gained Sage mode Madara was blind and Stated Sasuke doesn't come anywhere close to his level.


remember that as well.  the point was Your double standards is getting pretty Toxic on here. You just tried to argue EMS Sasuke can React to JJ Obito. By your logic that should mean He should be able to Tag blinded Madara and Nagato right?

Edit: aren't you the one in another Thread say that Edo Madara was superior to alive SM 1 Rinnegan Madara because he couldn't use PS without both Rinnegan?


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 6, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because it signifies Madara got a huge power boost by coming back to life. That would include speed.



The difference in strength between Edo and Living was made clear to be of minimal difference, as stated by Kabuto, who had honed Edo Tensei drastically. But if Madara got a power boost strong enough for him to bust through the Gates, wouldn't a proportionally similar increase in power also be applied to other revived Edo Tensei's i.e. Nagato in this thread?




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wrong. Blind Madara has sensory capabilities *outside of Sage Jutsu*. The Sage Jutsu just make him _better_.



While Madara did have sensory capabilities before Sage Jutsu, they certainly weren't what he was renowned for. His sensory feats prior to Sage Jutsu were not extraordinary; I'd be inclined to say that Nagato's sensory feats are better than a Madara without Sage Jutsu.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> _Edo_ Madara didn't seem particularly impressed by KCM2's speed and manhandled a KCM2 clone. Living Madara is MUCH faster.



KCM2 clone wouldn't be as fast/strong as the original. Edo Madara could cycle through EMS and Rinnegan, whilst Obito only had one MS and a single Rinnegan. Obito also had to deal with Bee, Kakashi and Guy simultaneously. The clone you are referring to charged at Madara alone.

The difference between Rinnegan Obito and Juubito would make up the difference in speed and explain the aforementioned altercation with Sasuke.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> So? I'm not disputing Sasuke failed to connect, dawg. I'm just saying reacting to Ten-Tails Obito >>>> anything Nagato has done.
> 
> Okay, so? How does this contradict anything I said? I believe Susano'o is faster than Sasuke himself.



I'll compare the two rn.
EMS Sasuke reacted and _failed_ against Juubito, and his FULL Susanoo was already manifested.
Crippled Edo Nagato reacted and _successfully_ dodged a blitz from V2 Bee.

Hachibi-absorbed Nagato is a lot faster than Crippled Nagato. Alive Nagato would subsequently be much faster if we're factoring in the increase in power/speed a resurrected Edo receives.

The Sasuke at the start of this MU wouldn't have his Susanoo formed, unlike how he had it formed against Juubito.

Sasuke _could _successfully blitz Nagato immediately, but he wouldn't have anything to damage Nagato with. He would have to wait until the Susanoo Sword (Legged V3 version and upwards) is formed to then hope to kill Nagato.

By that point, Nagato should have executed a Shinra Tensei by then, giving him the leeway to prepare with shared vision/grow Shurado modifications/cast CT/hide in the chameleon. Ultimately, I think Healthy Nagato, along with his notable sensory feats, should react in time to execute Shinra Tensei.



MYGod000 said:


> Before He even gained Sage mode Madara was blind and Stated Sasuke doesn't come anywhere close to his level.



To be fair, Madara said that right after saying "You stole my line, foolish child"! This may just have been his egotistical nature shining through lmao, or maybe trying to antagonize Sasuke.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Before He even gained Sage mode Madara was blind and Stated Sasuke doesn't come anywhere close to his level



Irrelevant.  at the time . He lets go of Hashi right before Sasuke attacks.



MYGod000 said:


> remember that as well.  the point was Your double standards is getting pretty Toxic on here. You just tried to argue EMS Sasuke can React to JJ Obito



It's not my argument - it's manga canon. Sorry you don't like it.

Also, don't accuse me of double standards without proof.



MYGod000 said:


> By your logic that should mean He should be able to Tag blinded Madara and Nagato right?



Um, yes? I *don't* doubt EMS Sasuke can tag Nagato or Madara lmao. I'm saying he can. Learn to read for a second.



MYGod000 said:


> Edit: aren't you the one in another Thread say that Edo Madara was superior to alive SM 1 Rinnegan Madara because he couldn't use PS without both Rinnegan?



Huh? When did I say that? I do not remember ever saying that.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Aug 6, 2020)

This shit really still going?

Despite it being impossible to provide even a shred of evidence in the manga that Nagato can react to Susanoo?

Cool

Nother day in the NBD


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 6, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> The difference in strength between Edo and Living was made clear to be of minimal difference, as stated by Kabuto, who had honed Edo Tensei drastically



This is true for most Edo Tensei, *but not Madara*. Madara being brought to life is the exception to the rule.



Halcyonite said:


> But if Madara got a power boost strong enough for him to bust through the Gates, wouldn't a proportionally similar increase in power also be applied to other revived Edo Tensei's i.e. Nagato in this thread?



No, because Madara's body was tampered with both before and after his death in all sorts of peculiar ways.

There's no proof Edo Nagato was weaker. There_ is _proof Edo Madara was weaker.



Halcyonite said:


> While Madara did have sensory capabilities before Sage Jutsu, they certainly weren't what he was renowned for. His sensory feats prior to Sage Jutsu were not extraordinary; I'd be inclined to say that Nagato's sensory feats are better than a Madara without Sage Jutsu



Irrelevant. Madara's sensory feats prior to Sage Jutsu were actually pretty good - the dude somehow sensed Naruto having the chakra of eight Tailed Beasts and could tell ninja apart based on their birthplace by their chakra signatures. Also, you're also conflating a modified living Madara with living Madara before said modifications. I know it's confusing, but there IS a difference.

And this is all before Hashirama's Sage Mode AND being revived.



Halcyonite said:


> KCM2 clone wouldn't be as fast/strong as the original. Edo Madara could cycle through EMS and Rinnegan, whilst Obito only had one MS and a single Rinnegan. Obito also had to deal with Bee, Kakashi and Guy simultaneously. The clone you are referring to charged at Madara alone



No shit KCM2 wouldn't be as fast as the original lmao (tell that to @WorldsStrongest though). Even so, we saw KCM1 was fast enough to tag the Third Raikage AS A CLONE and KCM2 is even faster, so Madara one-shotting that clone is still very impressive.

The Obito comparison isn't necessary to demonstrate that even Edo Madara (much weaker than Living Madara) was a badass.



Halcyonite said:


> The difference between Rinnegan Obito and Juubito would make up the difference in speed and explain the aforementioned altercation with Sasuke



Huh? What does Rinnegan have to do with anything?



Halcyonite said:


> I'll compare the two rn.
> EMS Sasuke reacted and _failed_ against Juubito, and his FULL Susanoo was already manifested



Okay, and? No one's saying Sasuke succeeded.

I'm just saying he could keep up with a FAR faster opponent than Nagato or anyone Nagato has kept up with.



Halcyonite said:


> Crippled Edo Nagato reacted and _successfully_ dodged a blitz from V2 Bee



Nagato also_ never_ dodged anything from V2 Bee. This never, ever happened.

And Ten-Tails Obito > BSM Naruto >>>> BM Naruto > KCM Naruto > V2 Bee.



Halcyonite said:


> Hachibi-absorbed Nagato is a lot faster than Crippled Nagato. Alive Nagato would subsequently be much faster if we're factoring in the increase in power/speed a resurrected Edo receives



Sadly Gyuki-absorbed Nagato has no speed feats I can think of that will help him against Sasuke.



Halcyonite said:


> The Sasuke at the start of this MU wouldn't have his Susanoo formed, unlike how he had it formed against Juubito



Sasuke _could _successfully blitz Nagato immediately, but he wouldn't have anything to damage Nagato with. He would have to wait until the Susanoo Sword (Legged V3 version and upwards) is formed to then hope to kill Nagato[/QUOTE]

No need to wait. .

No waiting necessary (and this was after his Susano'o was DESTROYED - seconds, at most).



Halcyonite said:


> By that point, Nagato should have executed a Shinra Tensei by then, giving him the leeway to prepare with shared vision/grow Shurado modifications/cast CT/hide in the chameleon. Ultimately, I think Healthy Nagato, along with his notable sensory feats, should react in time to execute Shinra Tensei



KN6 countered Gigantic Push and you think Perfect Susano'o (comparable to BSM) will have issues with it.

I swear, y'all...


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Irrelevant.  at the time . He lets go of Hashi right before Sasuke attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You've Yet to prove how EMS Sasuke Touches Madara....You've only claimed he can.


Now How am I suppose to take you Seriously? I can't listen to what you say without Proof...


Madara while Blind Danced around Sasuke.  Blinded Madara blitz SM Naruto.



Well...if you don't Remember, Then that fine. Not saying it was 100% you Debating EDO Madara PS>Alive 1 Rinnegan SM Madara.


However, I know I did debate it on here.  Regardless Alive Madara>Edo Madara



It was again Turrin...but Yeah you do contradict yourself.


2 months ago you were saying BM Naruto greater than MAdara.  then Said PS EMS Sasuke was equal to Madara's PS.


----------



## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is true for most Edo Tensei, *but not Madara*. Madara being brought to life is the exception to the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said Rinnegan Obito to refer to War-arc Obito, I wasn't giving a speed feat in relation to the Rinnegan.


Nagato did dodge V2 Bee. Before the Lariat, You see Nagato behind Bee, and Bee realises with "!". Bee assumes V2 form, turns around, and swings towards Nagato. Nagato is now seen paces back from where he was stood next to Bee, and Bee slams the ground after missing Nagato. That's the definition of dodging an attack.

If you're still unsure, the anime plays this exact sequence of events, from manga panel to manga panel, so rest assured it's canon. Take it as clarification. If you still disagree, then I don't feel like pushing this point further.


"Ten-Tails Obito > BSM Naruto >>>> BM Naruto > KCM Naruto > V2 Bee."

I didn't dispute that scale. I focused on the vast disparity between a Healthy Nagato and a Crippled, Edo, controlled Nagato. And even then, this set-back riddled Nagato still dodged V2 Bee.

Tbh, I'm looking at Chapter 650 right now, and it's looking a hell of a lot longer than 'seconds'. Naruto and Obito have a pretty lengthy conversation, as in, multiple sentences are being spoken before Sasuke manifests PS again. Also, Sasuke combined PS with Naruto; it wasn't a full PS avatar that he had conjured by himself.

Also, Pain didn't use the same strength of Shinra Tensei he used on the Boss Toads as he did against KN6. >>> Nagato could successfully execute Shinra Tensei if Sasuke has not fully manifested PS, and if he used one of the stronger variants.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You've Yet to prove how EMS Sasuke Touches Madara....You've only claimed he can



Because that's what...happened in the manga? 



MYGod000 said:


> Now How am I suppose to take you Seriously? I can't listen to what you say without Proof...



The manga is proof.



MYGod000 said:


> Madara while Blind Danced around Sasuke.  Blinded Madara blitz SM Naruto



You do realize I agree with you here, right? Why are you throwing a fit here?

Take a neg rep in exchange for your rude behavior.



MYGod000 said:


> Well...if you don't Remember, Then that fine. Not saying it was 100% you Debating EDO Madara PS>Alive 1 Rinnegan SM Madara



Yeah, it wasn't me. The most I argued is that Living Madara with Kurama > Edo Madara, which is a very different thing.



MYGod000 said:


> However, I know I did debate it on here.  Regardless Alive Madara>Edo Madara



Next time, don't accuse me of saying things I didn't ever say...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Nagato did dodge V2 Bee. Before the Lariat, You see Nagato behind Bee, and Bee realises with "!". Bee assumes V2 form, turns around, and swings towards Nagato. Nagato is now seen paces back from where he was stood next to Bee, and Bee slams the ground after missing Nagato



Lol, the fuck? and .



Halcyonite said:


> That's the definition of dodging an attack



Too bad it never happened, so...



Halcyonite said:


> If you're still unsure, the anime plays this exact sequence of events, from manga panel to manga panel, so rest assured it's canon. Take it as clarification. If you still disagree, then I don't feel like pushing this point further



Nah, sorry, the manga's good enough and it disproves what you said. But hey, I'll bite. Show me the anime.



Halcyonite said:


> "Ten-Tails Obito > BSM Naruto >>>> BM Naruto > KCM Naruto > V2 Bee."
> 
> I didn't dispute that scale. I focused on the vast disparity between a Healthy Nagato and a Crippled, Edo, controlled Nagato. And even then, this set-back riddled Nagato still dodged V2 Bee



This ''dodge'' never happened, sorry.



Halcyonite said:


> Tbh, I'm looking at Chapter 650 right now, and it's looking a hell of a lot longer than 'seconds'. Naruto and Obito have a pretty lengthy conversation, as in, multiple sentences are being spoken before Sasuke manifests PS again. Also, Sasuke combined PS with Naruto; it wasn't a full PS avatar that he had conjured by himself.



Okay, and that was an INJURED Sasuke with a destroyed Susano'o - not a fresh Sasuke who can use it right off the bat.

This doesn't help your argument.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol, the fuck? and .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nagato did dodge V2 Bee. Before the Lariat, You see Nagato behind Bee, and Bee realises with "!".  That's the definition of dodging an attack.

I circled Nagato's foot movement; he's clearly stepped back and avoided Bee's fist. Again, these EXACT manga panels are replicated in the anime, demonstrating Nagato dodging the attack in motion, unless you want to start arguing with the manga composition and the animators too?

Here's a link to the fight on YouTube and you can see the  too. The scene I'm talking about starts at *5:55*.           *"never happened" *


How does it not help my argument? You claimed Sasuke can manifest PS in seconds when that is clearly not the case. It appears as though he took MINUTES to form HALF a PS, with the assistance of Naruto forming the other Kurama half.

This 'injured' Sasuke proceeded to have a lengthy fight with Juubito after, so it's safe to assume he wasn't exhausted at this point in time, and that his PS-manifesting-speed wasn't impeded.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You've Yet to prove how EMS Sasuke Touches Madara


EMS Sasuke uses Susanoo and Madara gets fucked

End of debate

Sasuke has tagged much faster and more haxxed characters with Susanoo so Madara of any form Pre JJ is absolutely getting murked

Also love to know why we talking about Madara all of a sudden as neither character uses him to scale anywhere


MYGod000 said:


> How am I suppose to take you Seriously? I can't listen to what you say without Proof...


Tell this to literally every pro Nagato stan in this thread

Not one pro Nagato argument has been substantiated yet


MYGod000 said:


> Madara while Blind Danced around Sasuke. Blinded Madara blitz SM Naruto.


Sasukes construct >>>>> Sasuke proper

This is really not that impressive

Sasuke without his construct also does tag Madara, stabs him through his damn arm in fact, so this is a silly point to make anyway


MYGod000 said:


> Not saying it was 100% you Debating EDO Madara PS>Alive 1 Rinnegan SM Madara.


It was me

Because the idea that V3 Susanoo does fucking anything to PS is asinine

And it was Blind SM Madara

Not Rinnegan


MYGod000 said:


> However, I know I did debate it on here. Regardless Alive Madara>Edo Madara


No actually he isnt

Not with feats hes displayed he isnt anyway

Not even close

He himself is physically superior in terms of stats, but PS >>>>>>>>>>> Anything Living Madara showed in raw power


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because that's what...happened in the manga?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You said BSM Naruto Equals Perfect Susanoo, Then you Said EMS Sasuke PS Equals BSM. 


Yet you haven't proven That Sasuke can even go PS.   EMS Sasuke Needed BSM Naruto to Amp him to even use PS...If he could have used PS at any time...Then Why was he using V3 The whole time?


You said BM Naruto can break out of Madara's Wood Style...which he didn't he got overwhelmed by it.  Full Kurama Broke out of it.

As I've show you 50% Kurama>>>BM Naruto.



Edo Madara already Stated he was stronger back then as EMS then he was as Edo.


revived alive Madara>EMS Madara>Edo Madara.





He doesn't need Kurama...at this point of his revival he has Hagoromo's Chakra thanks to Senju+Uchaiha DNA. 


The Sasuke that was Attacking Juubi OBito had Senjutsu....so it wasn't even a Like Sasuke was using his only powers at anytime during that JJ Obito fight...so How is Base EMS Sasuke PS equal to Madara? Who was rival to the full 100% 9 tails?



Sasuke Was insecure about himself when he saw BM Kurama chakra.






No...Sasuke isn't Par with BSM Naruto.   Rinnegan Sasuke after he got Six path Senjutsu doesn't even count because that is an Powered up Sasuke.
[/URL]

Without the six path Chakra Sasuke isn't even 50% BM Kurama Naruto. 


Edit: yes you contradict yourself.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> EMS Sasuke uses Susanoo and Madara gets fucked
> 
> End of debate
> 
> ...





Tell me Why did you tag me when I haven't even Be talking to you? 




Sasuke can't even use PS....so, you have no debate. 


EMS Sasuke who is Amped by Kyuubi chakra is insecure about himself after seeing 50% Kurama chakra not even the full form.


Sasuke has PS and could use it to equal 50% Kurama then their would be no need for his comments about himself.


He flat-out doesn't have PS.  Now you are the one who is getting out Made up powers.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You said BSM Naruto Equals Perfect Susanoo, Then you Said EMS Sasuke PS Equals BSM



The manga shows that, yes.



MYGod000 said:


> Yet you haven't proven That Sasuke can even go PS







MYGod000 said:


> EMS Sasuke Needed BSM Naruto to Amp him to even use PS



Absolutely baseless assumption without anything to back it up. 



MYGod000 said:


> ..If he could have used PS at any time...Then Why was he using V3 The whole time?



Gee, it's almost as if Sasuke's eyes and Susano'o are growing stronger progressively throughout the fight...

Or it's almost as if Sasuke didn't need PS when he DID have Naruto (and Juugo) helping him out - y'know, to conserve chakra? The same reason Ay doesn't use his V2 lightning armor all the time or Naruto doesn't use BM against Ten-Tails Madara?



MYGod000 said:


> You said BM Naruto can break out of Madara's Wood Style...which he didn't he got overwhelmed by it.  Full Kurama Broke out of it



 of Madara's Wood Style. He's literally there protecting Gyuki from it. Stop making shit up.



MYGod000 said:


> As I've show you 50% Kurama>>>BM Naruto



I'm sorry, are you on some kind of drugs? Because that's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

BM Naruto >>>> 50% Kurama. BM Naruto IS 50% Kurama's chakra combined with Naruto's own and focused.



MYGod000 said:


> Edo Madara already Stated he was stronger back then as EMS then he was as Edo.
> 
> 
> revived alive Madara>EMS Madara>Edo Madara



Weird...I agree with this. Why are you bringing this up?



MYGod000 said:


> The Sasuke that was Attacking Juubi OBito had Senjutsu...so it wasn't even a Like Sasuke was using his only powers at anytime during that JJ Obito fight



Except it was HIS EYES that reacted to Obito, and Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o on its own is equal to the Susano'o he had there, so...



MYGod000 said:


> ..so How is Base EMS Sasuke PS equal to Madara? Who was rival to the full 100% 9 tails



Because EMS Sasuke PS is a rival to BSM Naruto who >>> 100% Kurama.



MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke Was insecure about himself when he saw BM Kurama chakra



Yes, because Sasuke at THAT time was weaker than Naruto. Later on, Sasuke got strong enough to keep up with BSM Naruto.

Not sure why you're confused by this.



MYGod000 said:


> No...Sasuke isn't Par with BSM Naruto.   Rinnegan Sasuke after he got Six path Senjutsu doesn't even count because that is an Powered up Sasuke



Yes, it does count, as Naruto was ALSO (and equally) powered up. BOTH received half of Hagoromo's chakra.



MYGod000 said:


> Without the six path Chakra Sasuke isn't even 50% BM Kurama Naruto.



Liar. Sasuke with Six Paths Chakra and Perfect Susano'o = Naruto with Six Paths Chakra and 50% Kurama BSM.



Take Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra (which he gave 50% of to BOTH Naruto and Sasuke), and you get...

Sasuke with Perfect Susano'o = Naruto with 50% Kurama BSM.


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## Zef (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> *You'd think that someone who can track the speed of a JJ *would have no problem blitzing blind Madara with no effort. Only for him to be danced around by that very same blind Madara.
> 
> *Then you go back and find out that this guy was wearing a Kyuubi cloak composed of both BM Naruto and BM Minato chakra.*
> 
> Then you're not surprised any more.


>_Kyuubi cloak helps with Sharingan tracking_

Is this a serious post?




You keep tossimg around "_blind" _Madara to mock Sasuke being unable to hit him while leaving out that the former had absorbed Hashirama's Sage Mode; Madara may have been _*visually*_ blind, but he was *aware of his surroundings nonetheless* so you emphasizing his loss of sight is a low tier argument.


He flat out said he could _*feel*_ Sasuke's Mangekyou after that exchange.


Clearly he has perceptions *superior to sight* in order to *feel* the type of doujutsu inside another person's skull.


And despite your jibes Madara still praised Sasuke's movements.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Tell me Why did you tag me when I haven't even Be talking to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, someone really doesn't know what he's talking about. Sasuke's powers were evolving throughout the fight. Sasuke didn't have PS until much later on, his powers *evolved *from matching KCM to BM to eventually BSM. This has always been a trend with him . . That means as time passes, his Susano'o grows stronger...


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The manga shows that, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sasuke did that Feat while Being powered By BSM Naruto.



Like we just established EMS Sasuke didn't have PS, Naruto was in BSM The whole fight and not once did he do that until Naruto started amping people with his BM Chakra.


 The only time Sasuke Successfully used PS without Naruto's help or aid from CSM  Was when he had Six path chakra.

That already doesn't even count Because Kakashi own canon statements that Six path Chakra enhances Ocular powers.



That Sasuke was already Amped by six path powers and can no longer used to gauge EMS Sasuke PS. 


EMS Sasuke doesn't even have the Chakra to form the Wings for PS.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke did that Feat while Being powered By BSM Naruto



Bullshit.  before merging them.

Do you have any proof Sasuke needed BSM Naruto's help to do it though? Provide proof, if you have it.



MYGod000 said:


> Like we just established EMS Sasuke didn't have PS



No, ''we'' didn't establish any such bullshit. That's just you being delusional, if not dishonest.



MYGod000 said:


> Naruto was in BSM The whole fight and not once did he do that until Naruto started amping people with his BM Chakra



No, Sasuke's eyes were just growing stronger as the fight progressed until he could finally use PS. It's not that complicated.



MYGod000 said:


> The only time Sasuke Successfully used PS without Naruto's help or aid from CSM  Was when he had Six path chakra



A lie, considering that there's zero proof Naruto helped Sasuke use Perfect Susano'o.



MYGod000 said:


> That already doesn't even count Because Kakashi own canon statements that Six path Chakra enhances Ocular powers.



Irrelevant. Sasuke used PS in the panels I provided long before he had Six Paths Chakra.


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## Zef (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> EMS Sasuke doesn't even have the Chakra to form the Wings for PS.


The downplay is real.


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## Charmed (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Nagato did dodge V2 Bee. Before the Lariat, You see Nagato behind Bee, and Bee realises with "!".  That's the definition of dodging an attack.


I see, so a gray hair cripple Nagato is fast enough to dodge V2 Bee huh?!
Nice! Very nice indeed!
and then, after absorbing sum chakra from Hachibi, he was fast enough to stop KCM Naruto mid air with chamaleon which he can't even sense and then he proceeds to nearly kill both Jins. Something that Rinnegan Obito couldn't do. In fact, he never even got the chance to tag them, iirc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Charmed said:


> I see, so a gray hair cripple Nagato is fast enough to dodge V2 Bee huh?!
> Nice! Very nice indeed!
> and then, after absorbing sum chakra from Hachibi, he was fast enough to stop KCM Naruto mid air with chamaleon which he can't even sense and then he proceeds to nearly kill both Jins. Something that Rinnegan Obito couldn't do. In fact, he never even got the chance to tag them, iirc.



Pretty much. Although it'd be fair to argue that Obito was facing a little bit more pressure, with Guy and Kakashi replacing Itachi. While the difference in pressure might not seem like much at first, Kakashi possessed Kamui as well, which would counter Obito's Kamui.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bullshit.  before merging them.
> 
> Do you have any proof Sasuke needed BSM Naruto's help to do it though? Provide proof, if you have it.
> 
> ...





You haven't proven that Sasuke can Do PS without BSM Naruto.


I have no problem with Sasuke doing PS...But you still have to prove that he can, Just to be sure.


What type of Debater or Person would you be if you just went with what anyone told you without any Proof?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You haven't proven that Sasuke can Do PS without BSM Naruto



I just did. Sasuke was forming Perfect Susano'o* before *he and Naruto even combined their chakra. Look at the images.



MYGod000 said:


> I have no problem with Sasuke doing PS



So stop trying to deny he did it.



MYGod000 said:


> What type of Debater or Person would you be if you just went with what anyone told you without any Proof?



I mean, I'd be just like you, tbh.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I just did. Sasuke was forming Perfect Susano'o* before *he and Naruto even combined their chakra. Look at the images.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No that was V3 Susanoo.

Madara is the only one listed as PS users.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> No that was V3 Susanoo.
> 
> Madara is the only one listed as PS users.



No, . 

Fucking Hashirama recognizes it.


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## Charmed (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> with Guy and Kakashi replacing Itachi.


yeah, but it was only an exhausted base Gai and an exhausted Kakashi (both would get wrecked by a random ST)


Halcyonite said:


> Kakashi possessed Kamui as well,


Yeah, I know, but still, how come Obito couldn't even tag Base Gai?
Base Gai!!! I mean... and then, he couldn't do anything to Kakashi nor KCM nor Bee either, when he could simply cast ST to kill Gai and Kakashi, and then use Preta on the Jins, or Ninegndo...or maybe he couldn't, I dunno. Whilst cripple Nagato blitzed KCM Nardo and Bee, and was about to beat them no-diff.
Imagine what that Nagato could do to an exhausted Base Gai and War Kakashi...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 7, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Yeah, I know, but still, how come Obito couldn't even tag Base Gai?
> Base Gai!!!



Someone's ignoring the fact that Obito also had to deal with Kakashi and KCM Naruto before and after that...

Kakashi, who has access to Obito's personal dimension. Naruto, who is Naruto.

Also, pretty sure this is just a feat for Base Guy, but do keep downplaying.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, .
> 
> Fucking Hashirama recognizes it.




First off learn the difference forms Of susanoo.


what Sasuke did against Obito was *Magical garb Susano'o (Iso Susano'o) 

which is Armored Susanoo.  
*



Your concession is Accepted then. Madara is the only one listed as being able to use Perfect Susanoo.    isn't The Perfect Susanoo.


Sasuke has only done that while in the presents of BSM Naruto. Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't Dwarf Mountains.

So...EMS Sasuke hypothetical PS isn't on par with EMS Madara PS

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, pretty sure this is just a feat for Base Guy, but do keep downplaying.


uh huh, the same base gai that couldn't even beat Shoten Kisame, right?




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Someone's ignoring the fact that Obito also had to deal with Kakashi and KCM Naruto before and after that...
> 
> Kakashi, who has access to Obito's personal dimension. Naruto, who is Naruto.


Well if he's so good with the rinnegan, why not ST Gai and Kakashi? then he can easily take on KCM Nardo and Bee taking advantage of that same ST. Or maybe he couldn't, maybe he's not as fast as cripple Nagato, maybe he doesn't have access to most Rinnegan techniques, since using Kamui with Kakaashi there was not a great idea, but spamming Rinnegan techinques is indeed a much better idea, especially to get rid of Base Gai! you ever thought of that?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Healthy Nagato as one that was revitalized but still got mobility issues or one that was completely healed of all issues?

Not being able to move would be a huge issues sooner than later.

If Sasuke uses PS then I do not see how Nagato would defend from that. Shinra Tensei to deflect PS sword? Maybe. But if Sasuke followed by another slash while Nagato got a 5 second cooldown time? Assuming a regular ST can deflect PS sword of course. Otherwise Nagato would be on a cooldown for much longer.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Healthy Nagato as one that was revitalized but still got mobility issues or one that was completely healed of all issues?
> 
> Not being able to move would be a huge issues sooner than later.
> 
> If Sasuke uses PS then I do not see how Nagato would defend from that. Shinra Tensei to deflect PS sword? Maybe. But if Sasuke followed by another slash while Nagato got a 5 second cooldown time? Assuming a regular ST can deflect PS sword of course. Otherwise Nagato would be on a cooldown for much longer.



Completely healed of all issues, in this thread at least.

If the conditions of the fight were that Sasuke started with PS already fully formed, then that would be a problem. However, with the Sasuke being discussed, it took minutes for him to form half a PS, with the other half being Naruto's Kurama avatar. This leaves Nagato ample time to use Shinra Tensei on a Sasuke that doesn't have his best defense up yet.

Alternatively, Nagato could use Bansho Tenin to pull Sasuke out of what he had began to form with his Susanoo, similar to what Gaara did to Madara but with his sand.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Completely healed of all issues, in this thread at least.
> 
> If the conditions of the fight were that Sasuke started with PS already fully formed, then that would be a problem. However, with the Sasuke being discussed, it took minutes for him to form half a PS, with the other half being Naruto's Kurama avatar. This leaves Nagato ample time to use Shinra Tensei on a Sasuke that doesn't have his best defense up yet.
> 
> Alternatively, Nagato could use Bansho Tenin to pull Sasuke out of what he had began to form with his Susanoo, similar to what Gaara did to Madara but with his sand.



Huh, it did not take Sasuke longer to create PS than it took Naruto to create another BM avatar. Sasuke simply chose first to use V3 Susanoo. No proof that he needs "charge time" for PS.

Plus V4 Susanoo is plenty dangerous too and can use Enton.

And Susanoo can still be operated when the user is outside the mecha. So pulling him out won't end PS. Plus how will Nagato deal with genjutsu or Kirin while he has to engage PS in the meantime? Do you believe that Sasuke after being pulled out will be skewered by Nagato's rods? I wonder if its so easy.

Sans Pain there is only one target for Sasuke. There are no multiple opponents to focus on.

Plus Nagato's speed even while mobile is featless. How will he deal with EMS precog?


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Huh, it did not take Sasuke longer to create PS than it took Naruto to create another BM avatar. Sasuke simply chose first to use V3 Susanoo. No proof that he needs "charge time" for PS.
> 
> Plus V4 Susanoo is plenty dangerous too and can use Enton.
> 
> ...



Since the moment he lost his PS form, it took him minutes to reform it. Naruto and Obito had a conversation during which. Multiple sentences were said, which is pretty significant since the late war-arc usually has speed feats pertaining to the speed of sound at the bare minimum.

Enton is useless against Nagato because of either Preta or Deva, and Nagato would most likely summon-spam (this is in-character for him) to take the heat (no pun intended).

When Madara was pulled out of his Susanoo, he was left vulnerable for long enough so Naruto could throw a Rasenshuriken at him, and Madara wasn't even pulled towards Naruto directly. Bansho Tenin will pull Sasuke _directly _towards Nagato.

Visual genjutsu is virtually ineffective against a Rinnegan wielder. The only *visual *genjutsu that should theoretically work is Tsukuyomi, since the worst of it takes place in a fraction of a second. Sasuke resisted the Infinite Tsukuyomi using the Rinnegan, and the only difference between his Rinnegan and Nagato's Rinnegan is that he can use his EMS abilities with it. Kirin requires a storm to be used, and that can't be used at the start of the fight.

Nagato wouldn't use chakra rods to _kill _Sasuke, but it's not a bad idea at immobilising him. Nagato would pull Sasuke towards him and most likely catch him with Shurado modifications + Shared vision. At that point, Sasuke's soul would either be ripped out, or his head would be blown off with the strongest Shurado explosive. Aside from the Susanoo Sword, Sasuke possesses nothing in his arsenal that will do anything substantial to Nagato; the majority of Sasuke's arsenal is nullified.

If this Shurado + Shared vision + human path combo doesn't work, Nagato's ace of CT is the last-ditch effort.

Multiple opponents would be the aforementioned summon-spam. Sasuke's only option to handle them is Amaterasu, and Nagato has 10+ summons. Not a good idea if Sasuke wants to tire himself out quickly.

Crippled Nagato dodged a hit from V2 Bee (I posted the manga scan as well as the manga panels being played out in the anime for clarity). Healthy Nagato would naturally be faster.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Since the moment he lost his PS form, it took him minutes to reform it. Naruto and Obito had a conversation during which. Multiple sentences were said, which is pretty significant since the late war-arc usually has speed feats pertaining to the speed of sound at the bare minimum.
> 
> It is Nagato who needs plenty of time to activate CST for example.
> 
> ...



Huh? Where did Sasuke need to wait to use PS? He lost not his PS form but V3 Susanoo and he started creating PS only after he got on his feet. It took him no more to create PS than it took Naruto to create BM.

Nagatos summons were quickly dealt with by Amaterasu (which EMS Sasuke seems to spam more easily than his MS self). It would barely slow Sasuke down. Sharingan can see invisible creatures so no invisible sneak attack on him with the chameleon unlike with KCM Naruto.

If Nagato tries to use bansho tenin then Sasuke can create a Susanoo arm to keep prevent him flying into Nagato. If he gets grabbed though he can use Chidori Nagashi to stun Nagato. Preta is not activated non stop.

No proof that the Rinnegan makes one immune to all dojutsu genjutsu. I do not recall such statement neither in the manga nor databook.

We also saw how Amaterasu could mess Nagatos arm fast enough to the point it was offed by the time Nagato used ST.

Dunno if Nagato can absorb Kirin either since its natural lighting. All absorbtion jutsus might be limited in that regard as we never saw preta absorb Gaaras sand for example.

And Nagato would have a hard time landing attacks on someone as fast as Sasuke with EMS precog especially when his own speed is featless.


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## killmugen (Aug 7, 2020)

Nagato wins


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## dergeist (Aug 7, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> You've Yet to prove how EMS Sasuke Touches Madara....You've only claimed he can.
> 
> 
> Now How am I suppose to take you Seriously? I can't listen to what you say without Proof...
> ...



You're expecting an intelligible response from him


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Huh? Where did Sasuke need to wait to use PS? He lost not his PS form but V3 Susanoo and he started creating PS only after he got on his feet. It took him no more to create PS than it took Naruto to create BM.
> 
> Nagatos summons were quickly dealt with by Amaterasu (which EMS Sasuke seems to spam more easily than his MS self). It would barely slow Sasuke down. Sharingan can see invisible creatures so no invisible sneak attack on him with the chameleon unlike with KCM Naruto.
> 
> ...



We're at an impasse then. And Sasuke may have only formed it so quickly due to only needing to form half of PS without legs, as well as possessing the amps from both Juugo and Naruto. 

Edo Itachi didn't detect the chameleon with his Sharingan, which left KCM Naruto in the predicament he was in, ultimately. Furthermore, Jiraiya was unable to sense the presence of the chameleon with Sage Jutsu either.

If shared vision (including the multiple faces Nagato can grow on his head) is still up, Nagato will catch the Chidori with Preta. KCM Naruto's Rasengan and Killer Bee's lightning-enhanced blade were both stopped by this with ease, and this was still a partially immobile and controlled Edo Nagato. You underestimate the Shurado modifications.

There was no statement, but its a pretty hefty feat under the Rinnegan's belt. Infinite Tsukuyomi is one of the strongest forms of visual genjutsu in the series. I doubt any genjutsu (which Sasuke didn't even specialise in) will be effective on Nagato, _especially_ with shared vision.

Fair enough about Kirin. Although, it would be a while before Sasuke could use it. This might be a bit trolly, but Nagato has been shown to have control over the weather with his Rain Tiger At Will technique. Couldn't he just stop the storm? When Pain and Konan were first physically seen in the manga, he did this very thing when he sent Konan to investigate the 'intruder' (Jiraiya).

Nagato wanted to die as Edo. He even detected Amaterasu building up in Itachi's eyeball before he cast it, so I have no doubt he would've reacted in time to either use Preta/Deva on the flames.

I'm not sure why you keep saying featless, when I gave you a speed feat for a crippled version of him. That places his speed feat at V2 Bee as the bare minimum, and it can only be better from that. As for EMS Sasuke however, Sasuke needs to manifest his Susanoo Sword (At Three Legged Susanoo V3 as the BARE minimum) before he attempts to blitz Nagato, and that gives Nagato time to do any of the aforementioned tactics. Blitzing Nagato without the Susanoo Sword is fruitless, since Sasuke can't damage him otherwise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> I'm not sure why you keep saying featless, when I gave you a speed feat for a crippled version of him. That places his speed feat at V2 Bee as the bare minimum, and it can only be better from that




That's not a real speed feat. Bee was flying with the speed induced by shinra tensei, not his own physical speed lol. Nagato dodged the downward paw swipe sure but a paw swipe doesnt scale to running speed. With his running speed he straight up blitzed Nagato , and before he could react. We see the impact marker on Nagato's chest from lariat. And THEN he reacted with Preta in the next panel. Same thing with anime.


But that was old emaciated nagato. He would get a stat boost after that but he has no reaction feats after that so... nothing scales him up. He didnt react to KCM naruto , naruto fell into the trap the invisible and unsenseable chameleon left. And chakra arm speed doesnt scale to shunshin. 

I agree Nagato wins here  but he definitely didnt dodge V2 Bee.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> We're at an impasse then. And Sasuke may have only formed it so quickly due to only needing to form half of PS without legs, as well as possessing the amps from both Juugo and Naruto.
> 
> Edo Itachi didn't detect the chameleon with his Sharingan, which left KCM Naruto in the predicament he was in, ultimately. Furthermore, Jiraiya was unable to sense the presence of the chameleon with Sage Jutsu either.
> 
> ...



Sasuke formed his half of PS as fast as Naruto formed his half of Kurama. Juugo was not giving Sasuke CS anymore and the chakra cloak that Sasuke recived before was gone.

We do not know if Itachi could or couldn't see the invisible chameleon since he was temporarily knocked out by Nagato's ST at that time. We know though that the Sharingan even in just 2T worked in the past against invisible opponents (the one in the Kakashi Gaiden and likely against Mu during his fight with Madara...otherwise how would Madara deal with an invisible opponent?)

Itachi could genjutsu Sasuke with MS and Sasuke could genjutsu Itachi with 3T sharingan when they freed each other from Kabuto's genjutsu. There is no immunity even there. Resistance to genjutsu is only a trait that the Sharingan had shown. Not the Byakugan or Rinnegan.

Amaterasu can feed the storm so even if Nagato tried to dispell the storm I doubt it would work. It might also only work if the storm was created by him and had some ninjutsu qualities added to it. Nagato could sense people all over the village thanks to it so it was no "regular" rainy weather. It clearly had some chakra to work like this.

Nagato was under Kabuto's control all the time though. Kabuto made him do his bidding even when Nagato was not turned into a mindless creature. All he could control at that time was his ability to speak. No reason why Kabuto shouldn't use Preta or ST as soon as possible.

What he did against V2 Bee was more of a reaction feat than a speed feat tbh. Nagato was dropped close to Bee by his summon and then Bee used Lariat on him which Nagato did not dodge but had the mental reaction to absorb the attack (and the shroud) before he could be damaged by it. 

Its also an enigma whether Nagato can absorb susanoo arrows. If he cannot then all he got is ST to deal with that and Sasuke can fire arrows one after another or even several at time. Sasuke can also attempt to throw tons of Shurikens(perhaps even filled with Raiton chakra) at Nagato forcing him to use ST to deal with that and create a potential opening while ST is put on a cooldown.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> That's not a real speed feat. Bee was flying with the speed induced by shinra tensei, not his own physical speed lol. Nagato dodged the downward paw swipe sure but a paw swipe doesnt scale to running speed. With his running speed he straight up blitzed Nagato , and before he could react. We see the impact marker on Nagato's chest from lariat. And THEN he reacted with Preta in the next panel. Same thing with anime.
> 
> 
> But that was old emaciated nagato. He would get a stat boost after that but he has no reaction feats after that so... nothing scales him up. He didnt react to KCM naruto , naruto fell into the trap the invisible and unsenseable chameleon left. And chakra arm speed doesnt scale to shunshin.
> ...



You make a fair point tbh, but nothing disqualifies this as a reaction speed feat or a CQC speed feat. While he was travelling at the speed set by Shinra Tensei, the moment Bee realised with "!" was when he used his *own physical speed *to turn around and swing a punch.
>>>
You could even make a case for it being a movement speed feat by paying attention to _Nagato's _movements instead. Within a single panel of using ST, Nagato is *directly *behind Bee. Crippled Nagato made it from the mouth of the chameleon to the opposite end of his ST, right behind Bee, and then proceeded to dodge a hit from V2. Bee used his own physical speed to attempt to hit Nagato, and missed. Nagato was still white-haired and crippled by this point.

This proves that Nagato kept pace with Bee's physical movements, by definition.


Also, in reference to KCM, upon Naruto _landing _in the vicinity, regardless of being caught by the chameleon, Nagato grips Naruto in the very next panel, which is still impressive. The anime seemed to draw this out extensively. Some people might be reluctant to call this a blitz, but it meets the criteria. It is definitely a looser claim than Nagato reacting and dodging V2 Bee, however.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Sasuke formed his half of PS as fast as Naruto formed his half of Kurama. Juugo was not giving Sasuke CS anymore and the chakra cloak that Sasuke recived before was gone.
> 
> We do not know if Itachi could or couldn't see the invisible chameleon since he was temporarily knocked out by Nagato's ST at that time. We know though that the Sharingan even in just 2T worked in the past against invisible opponents (the one in the Kakashi Gaiden and likely against Mu during his fight with Madara...otherwise how would Madara deal with an invisible opponent?)
> 
> ...



We don't see him knocked out by the ST in the manga or the anime, so that's a little bit of headcanon. The moment Nagato disappeared into the mouth of the chameleon, Itachi "should've" been able to detect it, but he couldn't. The chameleon was of a different nature to other forms of invisibility: camouflage. It is possible that it could camouflage its own chakra signature.

I've already said that the Rinnegan held an immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series. There is a precedence set for the Rinnegan's resistance to visual genjutsu. The only genjutsu to have EVER worked on a Rinnegan user was an auditory one.

The rain itself is still rain, Nagato just conducted his chakra through it to either form a storm or to disperse it. It's similar to Sasuke and Kirin. It's a source of natural lightning with no chakra present in the technique itself, but Sasuke conducts it with his own chakra.

Not all the time. Kabuto only assumed *full *control over Nagato once Nagato used Shinra Tensei on Amaterasu. Before then, Nagato was on 'autopilot' in a sense. Think about it, Nagato was just burning away in Amaterasu while Itachi had a whole exposition dump about Shisui and Sasuke joining the Akatsuki.

Do you have proof of the chameleon dropping him into that scenario? What's made evident is that he had moved there on his own, and the anime supports the manga's rendition of it. Nagato dodged the initial punch from Bee, not the Lariat. That is a CQC speed feat and a reaction speed feat. As soon as KCM fell into the chameleon's clutches, Nagato had already reached Naruto with Ningendo in the next panel too, which is another impressive showing considering his immobility, and is a movement speed feat. 

Preta Path feats indicate that it can absorb anything composed of chakra. Anything. It absorbed volatile Bijuu chakra, so I don't see why it can't absorb a Susanoo arrow as effectively as a Rasenshuriken. Shinra Tensei is also an option.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Hellraiser @Halcyonite @Speedyamell @King789
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke reacting to Ten-Tails Obito has NOTHING to do with Juugo or Naruto's powerups. It is entirely due to his EYES.


I love you, but no. We're not gonna discredit those powerups.
Kakashi said the chakra he received from kurama enhanced his visual ability 3x the norm. And the quantity of that chakra was much less than what the allied forces later received.
CS is basically Walmart sage mode and there's no way receiving some sort of NE doesn't grant any boost.
So yes. Those power ups are indeed valid when evaluating sasuke.

But I do agree that him getting better at tracking obito was a feat for his sharingan since that is literally what was highlighted in the scene.

But reacting to obito, who was only half serious seeing as he negged them the instant he got bored, isn't at all solid proof for EMS sasuke being able to "_blitz"_ nagato who manhandled two speedsters at once as a cripple


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So? This is a living Sage Madara, and he himself praises Sasuke's eyes.


Yes, now read back what i said


Hellraiser said:


> You'd think that someone who can track the speed of a JJ would have no problem blitzing blind Madara with no effort. Only for him to be danced around by that very same blind Madara.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> We don't see him knocked out by the ST in the manga or the anime, so that's a little bit of headcanon. The moment Nagato disappeared into the mouth of the chameleon, Itachi "should've" been able to detect it, but he couldn't. The chameleon was of a different nature to other forms of invisibility: camouflage. It is possible that it could camouflage its own chakra signature.
> 
> I've already said that the Rinnegan held an immunity to the strongest visual genjutsu in the entire series. There is a precedence set for the Rinnegan's resistance to visual genjutsu. The only genjutsu to have EVER worked on a Rinnegan user was an auditory one.
> 
> ...



We know though that Itachi did not appear to help Naruto and Bee till the soul ripping was in process. So if he wasn't knocked out then he waited for an opening when he could strike. 

Its a rain that helps Nagato to track people in his village to see if intruders appeared. So he got some psychic connection to those clouds where the rain is produced. Konan also seemed to imply as if the rain could get worse depending on Nagato's own mood. Perhaps subconsciously. In either case as long as Amaterasu is burning as the source for those clouds Nagato wouldn't be able to shut it off. He would if it was Hebi Sasuke who needed to shoot katons into the clouds and the process seemed slower since there was less heat produced than by Amaterasu.

But Nagato's autopilot should still force him to do all that needed to be done to win. Besides Nagato letting Amaterasu burn him in order to die would be pointless since he is an immortal edo. And no point in trying to fight off Kabuto's command to use preta or ST as soon as possible then.

We know that Nagato was not even revitalized yet and we saw that he needed Itachi's help to move at all. A Shunshin at that moment makes no sense. Even when revitalized Kabuto confirmed that Nagato still had mobility problems. Hard to run with messed up legs which were not the result of Rinnegan crippling but Hanzou's exploding tags.

Even if Nagato can absorb those arrows then what is he going to do if Sasuke just tells Susanoo to shoot a neverending stream of arrows while he throws shurikens non stop like he did against Itachi? Can Nagato use Preta and ST at the same time? And even if he can then what is he going to do about the cooldown for ST if Sasuke throws more shurikens at him while he got his hands full absorbing those arrows?


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> Yes, now read back what i said



Tbh that was a Blind Madara with his sensing powers greatly empowered by SM. Even sans SM it looked like Madara was a decent sensor capable of knocking off SM Naruto and Sai plus quickly grab Hashi by his throat.

And though Madara "danced" around Sasuke's attacks he would have still landed a blow on Madara's Hashiboob if the latter did not attempt a block that pierced his arm. Madara himself did not land a hot on Sasuke either.

That and tracking someone isn't the same as keep up with the same person speed-wise. Sasuke can track Blind SM Madara's movements but its not easy to land blows at him.

Besides against Juubito it was Sasuke plus Naruto and Obito was still blocking their attacks till Kyuusano was used. V3 Susanoo with legs might be also faster than Sasuke himself.


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

Zef said:


> >_Kyuubi cloak helps with Sharingan tracking_
> 
> Is this a serious post?


Yes Zef it's a serious post. You trying to mock the point instead of refuting it doesn't help your case.

Strong chakra empowers the ocular power. This was apparent with Kakashi whom receiving the Kyuubi chakra empowered his Dojutsu.



Zef said:


> You keep tossimg around "_blind" _Madara to mock Sasuke being unable to hit him while leaving out that the former had absorbed Hashirama's Sage Mode; Madara may have been _*visually*_ blind, but he was *aware of his surroundings nonetheless* so you emphasizing his loss of sight is a low tier argument.
> 
> 
> He flat out said he could _*feel*_ Sasuke's Mangekyou after that exchange.
> ...


I'm not mocking anything ok? For the record I already said that Sasuke would win this match up 


Now back to your point. Yes Madara may have able to perceive his surroundings with Sage sensing. But that doesn't mean he had the same perception with the Sharingan. Sage sensing doesn't make up for the loss of the Choku Tomoe precog that he had before, so while Madara was able to perceive the battles with SM, he was clearly operating with inferior perception 



Zef said:


> And despite your jibes Madara still praised Sasuke's movements.


Doesn't really prove anything.


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Tbh that was a Blind Madara with his sensing powers greatly empowered by SM. Even sans SM it looked like Madara was a decent sensor capable of knocking off SM Naruto and Sai plus quickly grab Hashi by his throat.
> 
> And though Madara "danced" around Sasuke's attacks he would have still landed a blow on Madara's Hashiboob if the latter did not attempt a block that pierced his arm. Madara himself did not land a hot on Sasuke either.
> 
> ...


I've already addressed all this previously.
SM Madara is slower than JJ Obito, but Sasuke was able to hit Obito and not Madara. Their team work against Obito doesn't improve Sasuke's accuracy, because when they attack from left and right, Obito still have up and down and back and forth to escape. It was a case of him being empowered by the Kyuubi chakra. Nothing else makes sense.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> We know though that Itachi did not appear to help Naruto and Bee till the soul ripping was in process. So if he wasn't knocked out then he waited for an opening when he could strike.
> 
> Its a rain that helps Nagato to track people in his village to see if intruders appeared. So he got some psychic connection to those clouds where the rain is produced. Konan also seemed to imply as if the rain could get worse depending on Nagato's own mood. Perhaps subconsciously. In either case as long as Amaterasu is burning as the source for those clouds Nagato wouldn't be able to shut it off. He would if it was Hebi Sasuke who needed to shoot katons into the clouds and the process seemed slower since there was less heat produced than by Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



As soon as Nagato was in the mouth of the chameleon, Naruto had enough time to say "Hmm, where'd he go?". Itachi should have seen the chameleon, but didn't. Why wait for an opening when he could've prevented Naruto's near-death experience in the first place?

I don't know about a "psychic connection" but he just streams his chakra through the rain as a sensory technique. Whatever the rain falls on tells him about the strength of that person and what they are doing blah blah. In theory, he'd be able to stop the storm, but I agree that Amaterasu would just keep the storm coming back.

Yeah Nagato wouldn't have died from the Amaterasu, but he would never have wanted to fight against the Amaterasu. He wanted to actively inconvenience the Edo Tensei caster as much as possible. Before Kabuto assumed full control, Nagato was always fighting his body, making statements such as "Oh no, my body is moving on its own!" As soon as he was hit with Amaterasu atop the Bird summoning, he fell to the ground and closed his eyes, accepting it. It's obvious that Nagato wasn't being fully controlled at that time. He could still think, and he could still pause between attacks, and he could still advise Naruto and Bee.

Considering Nagato backflipped out of the way of Bee's first punch, I don't doubt that it was Shunshin that placed Nagato behind Bee. There would be a tongue dropping Nagato behind Bee, but there wasn't. The anime supports this, just showing Shunshin.

Nagato slurped up all of Bee's Hachibi cloak chakra in the matter of seconds, which is most likely multiple Susanoo arrows worth of chakra in a concentrated form. I don't doubt that Nagato would absorb all of the Susanoo arrows. Even if there was the slight possibility that he was overwhelmed, he can spam summonings to take the hit. The Panda summoning is literally designed for this intention.

Shurikens are fodder against Nagato.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> I've already addressed all this previously.
> SM Madara is slower than JJ Obito, but Sasuke was able to hit Obito and not Madara. Their team work against Obito doesn't improve Sasuke's accuracy, because when they attack from left and right, Obito still have up and down and back and forth to escape. It was a case of him being empowered by the Kyuubi chakra. Nothing else makes sense.



When did Sasuke hit Juubito?

All he managed was forcing Juubito to block his attack with gudoudamas which followed with his Susanoo being grabbed and smacked into the ground. Juubito was dodging Sasuke's slashes even easier than Madara did. He did not have his arm pierced by Sasuke.

Chakra cloak likely improved the quality of V3 Susanoo (no way in hell that V3 Susanoo should be comparable to SM empowered Kurama Avatar) but the precog was a trait of Sasuke's improved eyes which Madara himself addressed. Sasuke despite being capable of tracking Madara (and Juubito) might still be to slow to land a blow on either of those guys without help. Precog won't increase his body speed or shunshin.

And again V3 Susanoo speed (empowered by the cloak) > Sasuke's own speed most likely.

Had SM Madara blitzed Sasuke you might have a point.

Though since Madara even sans SM was capable of knocking someone with reflexes as great as SM Naruto then it makes sense how his boost in reflexes and senses puts him way above his previous self. And Madara's previous self (EMS Madara) was likely overall more powerful than EMS Sasuke. So its hardly surprising he can keep up with Sasuke's speed thanks to SM sensing.


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## t0xeus (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> I've already addressed all this previously.
> SM Madara is slower than JJ Obito, but Sasuke was able to hit Obito and not Madara. Their team work against Obito doesn't improve Sasuke's accuracy, because when they attack from left and right, Obito still have up and down and back and forth to escape. It was a case of him being empowered by the Kyuubi chakra. Nothing else makes sense.


But noone is suggesting that Sasuke himself can move at JJ Obito-tagging speeds.
He only has the reflexes to operate his Susanoo at those speeds.

And against Madara all he used was his own physical movement. It weren't his reflexes that were lacking but his physical speed.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But noone is suggesting that Sasuke himself can move at JJ Obito-tagging speeds.
> He only has the reflexes to operate his Susanoo at those speeds.
> 
> And against Madara all he used was his own physical movement. It weren't his reflexes that were lacking but his physical speed.



Pretty much

Having amazing reflexes does not mean he got the speed to keep up with those reflexes. His eyes give him reflexes but not a speed boost.

So he can track Juubito but is not as fast as him.


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But noone is suggesting that Sasuke himself can move at JJ Obito-tagging speeds.
> He only has the reflexes to operate his Susanoo at those speeds.


He doesn't need to move at that speed if he has powerful enough precog. Nor his Susanoo.


t0xeus said:


> And against Madara all he used was his own physical movement. It weren't his reflexes that were lacking but his physical speed.


Your point would be correct if Madara was as fast as JJ Obito, but he's not. Being able to track a much faster opponent but failing to tag a much much slower opponent doesn't go hand to hand with me.


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## t0xeus (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> He doesn't need to move at that speed if he has powerful enough precog. Nor his Susanoo.


But not if the gap between his precog and physical speed is too big.

Refer to P1 Lee and Sasuke. Sasuke could see Lee's movement, yet could not defend in time from it.



Hellraiser said:


> Your point would be correct if Madara was as fast as JJ Obito, but he's not. Being able to track a much faster opponent but failing to tag a much much slower opponent doesn't go hand to hand with me.


IMO all it suggests is that his Susanoo is much faster than he is himself on his own.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 7, 2020)

Sasuke uses PS and wins


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> When did Sasuke hit Juubito?
> 
> All he managed was forcing Juubito to block his attack with gudoudamas which followed with his Susanoo being grabbed and smacked into the ground. Juubito was dodging Sasuke's slashes even easier than Madara did. He did not have his arm pierced by Sasuke.


That means he tagged him. Like i said, Obito had up and down and back and forth to escape, but he was forced to block.


Arles Celes said:


> Chakra cloak likely improved the quality of V3 Susanoo (no way in hell that V3 Susanoo should be comparable to SM empowered Kurama Avatar) but the precog was a trait of Sasuke's improved eyes which Madara himself addressed. Sasuke despite being capable of tracking Madara (and Juubito) might still be to slow to land a blow on either of those guys without help. Precog won't increase his body speed or shunshin.


Strong chakra empowers the ocular power. That's all there is to it. An empowered eyes = an empowered Dojutsu and an empowered precog.


Arles Celes said:


> Had SM Madara blitzed Sasuke you might have a point.


Madara didn't even attempt to attack Sasuke what are you talking about?


Arles Celes said:


> Though since Madara even sans SM was capable of knocking someone with reflexes as great as SM Naruto then it makes sense how his boost in reflexes and senses puts him way above his previous self. And Madara's previous self (EMS Madara) was likely overall more powerful than EMS Sasuke. So its hardly surprising he can keep up with Sasuke's speed thanks to SM sensing.


Madara with SM having better perception than Madara with the EMS ? nah, not likely.


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## Android (Aug 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But not if the gap between his precog and physical speed is too big.
> 
> Refer to P1 Lee and Sasuke. Sasuke could see Lee's movement, yet could not defend in time from it.


What if Sasuke was able to see Lee's movement with a much more advanced eyes, 3TS for example? Wouldn't the situation be different? Hm?



t0xeus said:


> IMO all it suggests is that his Susanoo is much faster than he is himself on his own.


Again, this point woul only hold weight if Madara was as fast as JJ Obito.


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## t0xeus (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> What if Sasuke was able to see Lee's movement with a much more advanced eyes, 3TS for example? Wouldn't the situation be different? Hm?
> 
> 
> Again, this point woul only hold weight if Madara was as fast as JJ Obito.


Well the precog basically makes up for the gap between the Sharingan user's physical speed and his opponent's physical speed.

So I guess it comes down to how big you think the gap is between JJ Obito's, EMS Sasuke's and Madara's physical speed. And there is no real way to definitely conclude the gap I think.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> That means he tagged him. Like i said, Obito had up and down and back and forth to escape, but he was forced to block.



Madara was also forced to block and had his arm pierced.

Despite facing Sasuke alone.

Juubito was facing Naruto and Sasuke both.

Don't say anything like "numbers make no difference". Because they do (unless its nameless fodders).




Hellraiser said:


> Strong chakra empowers the ocular power. That's all there is to it. An empowered eyes = an empowered Dojutsu and an empowered precog.



Sasuke is a Indra incarnate with a chakra as strong as one can get without Six Path chakra though.

Besides when he used Kyuusanoo alongside Naruto against Juubito he lost his cloak. Still could react to Obito's attack.

More importantly if Sasuke's precog received a boost via chakra cloak then such important info is usually stated by the writer (like making Sasuke comment how his precog is better than before he had a cloak). Instead we had Sasuke eye receive hype after the cloak was gone.

Finally, if EMS Sasuke was so behind Naruto in terms of both speed and reflexes then his Rinnegan self would also need to carry a chakra cloak at all times to match Naruto in that regard since they received a similar level of boost from Hago. So why Kishi decided not to give him another cloak afterwards?

IMO the cloak was only for two purposes: To help Sasuke teleport away from the 4 Juubidamas and to make his V3 Susanoo super strong for a team fight against Juubito before PS came into the game and helped end the fight. Sans cloak there would be no team battle. Just Kyuusano right away as BSM Naruto alone would be unable to do anything.

We both know that if Sasuke got a big boost via chakra cloak while using PS instead of V3 Susanoo then his PS would be at least Kyuusano level strong or stronger and he would match Juubito sans help. Unless at a certain level of power cloaks no longer increase the the strength of a jutsu.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> Yes Zef it's a serious post. You trying to mock the point instead of refuting it doesn't help your case.
> 
> Strong chakra empowers the ocular power. This was apparent with Kakashi whom receiving the Kyuubi chakra empowered his Dojutsu.
> 
> ...




I agree with Strong chakra empowers the Ocular powers...that shouldn't even be Questioned. We see an example of that when Kakashi after being empowered was able to Kamui the 8 tails...Something that would have been impossible for him without the Kyuubi amp him 3 x stronger. 


As for the winner...If Sasuke can hold His *completed Armored Susanoo *_For _any Significant time long Enough to Hit him or break through his Defenses of the Rinnegan Then I can agree that sasuke wins.

But...we just have no prove that he can do this or even Sustain such a form for long at all since the War had made it clear that Sasuke was just Getting use to his eyes, he Just started going Beyond his Previous limits being able to use V3 Susanoo and Majestic Attire-Susanoo which isn't even the full Susanoo that was with Naruto amp. 


Right now...I say Nagato wins...but with Mid diff.  Regardless of what the opposition thinks this isn't by any means an "easy" fight.


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## Zef (Aug 7, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> Yes Zef it's a serious post. You trying to mock the point instead of refuting it doesn't help your case.


There's nothing to refute because your assertion isn't stated anywhere in the series. Sharingan's skill to track movement comes from the number or type of tomoe that's present not any chakra.
The notion that Kyuubi chakra buffed his chakra sight is completely baseless.



> Strong chakra empowers the ocular power.


It empowers ocular *jutsu
*
Not ocular _*perception*_ 

Perception for Sharingan is based on *tomoe*.

See:




















> This was apparent with Kakashi whom receiving the Kyuubi chakra empowered his Dojutsu.


It empowered his Kamui not his Sharingan tracking.






> Now back to your point. Yes Madara may have able to perceive his surroundings with Sage sensing. But* that doesn't mean he had the same perception with the Sharingan*.


Well seeing how Sharingan perception is _visual_ while Sage Mode perception isn't I'm gonna have to say no shit.




> Sage sensing doesn't make up for the loss of the Choku Tomoe precog that he had before
> 
> *he was clearly operating with inferior perception*



Oh, so _*now*_ Sharingan precog is good.


You were having such a laugh earlier about how Sasuke (supposedly) needed Kyuubi chakra to tag Obito here:



Naruto is using his Sage Mode sensing there to tag Obito, so if Sasuke's eyes need a chakra buff (according to you) to keep up with Naruto's Sage Mode sensing I'm wondering why you think Madara losing his eyes would be some loss?



Needless to say I surprisingly disagree.


Sharingan perception is limited by what the user can *see*.


Sage Mode is not.

Sensors can pick up on shit from halfway around the world. 

Sharingan sight can't do that.



So you'll have to forgive me for not subscribing to the meme that blind Madara was some helpless old man that should have been caught easily simply because he couldn't see.


Even prior to stealing Hashirama's Sage Mode Madara showed sensing capabilities.


----------



## Mike307 (Aug 8, 2020)

I've got Nagato. EMS Sasuke couldn't even keep up with Sage Mode Kabuto.

Amaterasu would get repelled or absorbed.  Sasuke has nothing to combat the Gedo Statue, which captured all of the Bijuu by the way & as @Kagutsutchi said EMS Sasuke only blitzed Juubito because of the amps by BSM Naruto and Jugo.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 10, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> First off learn the difference forms Of susanoo.
> 
> 
> what Sasuke did against Obito was *Magical garb Susano'o (Iso Susano'o)
> ...



Majestic Attire Susano'o is literally just a variant of Perfect Susano'o.

Compare Madara's  to Madara's .

Then compare Sasuke's  to Sasuke's . They have the same shoulder-armor.



MYGod000 said:


> Your concession is Accepted then. Madara is the only one listed as being able to use Perfect Susanoo



Funny how the page for Perfect Susano'o also talks about ...that was clearly an oversight.

This is the same Databook which does not list Madara as an Izanagi user or Danzo as a summoner, by the way.



MYGod000 said:


> isn't The Perfect Susanoo



Yeah, it is. It looks just like one.



MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke has only done that while in the presents of BSM Naruto



But* you haven't proven BSM Naruto had anything to do with it*.

Sasuke used it on his own BEFORE combining it with Naruto's BSM.

Going by your logic, Madara can't use Infinite Tsukuyomi outside Naruto and Sasuke's presence either because he used it while they were there.  



MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't Dwarf Mountains



Yes, it does.



MYGod000 said:


> So...EMS Sasuke hypothetical PS isn't on par with EMS Madara PS



You're right, it's stronger.



Mike307 said:


> I've got Nagato. EMS Sasuke couldn't even keep up with Sage Mode Kabuto.
> 
> Amaterasu would get repelled or absorbed.  Sasuke has nothing to combat the Gedo Statue, which captured all of the Bijuu by the way & as @Kagutsutchi said EMS Sasuke only blitzed Juubito because of the amps by BSM Naruto and Jugo.



Wow, this is such a bad argument lmao. Why do people pretend that Sasuke's eyes didn't progressively grow a lot stronger throughout the War Arc (as they did in the FKS and Final arcs)? It's honestly pretty obvious that's what happened. This is like saying VoTE Sasuke is only as strong as CE Sasuke and would still lose to KN0 Naruto.

Also, EMS Sasuke never blitzed Obito -, and that was because of , not because of BSM Naruto or Juugo. The manga makes sure to focus on his eyes.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 10, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Majestic Attire Susano'o is literally just a variant of Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> Compare Madara's  to Madara's .
> 
> ...




Disagree with that. the Databooks make it clear they are not the same thing.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 10, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Disagree with that. the Databooks make it clear they are not the same thing.



The Databooks LIST Sasuke's Susano'o in the SAME section as Madara's Perfect Susano'o.

These Databooks are also notorious for omissions like not mentioning Madara (your favorite) can use Izanagi.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 10, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The Databooks LIST Sasuke's Susano'o in the SAME section as Madara's Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> These Databooks are also notorious for omissions like not mentioning Madara (your favorite) can use Izanagi.




If you read my profile Sasuke and Madara are my favorites...so you trying to pull double standard card on me doesn't work. 

I've literally said If proof can be giving that Sasuke can use PS then I'll change my Positions on it. I even Talked to my brother who's also a Sasuke fan...who out right said out his mouth He doesn't think Sasuke would win because he doesn't have knowledge of any of  Nagato Jutsu. 


Knowledge is a big Factor in Naruto fights.  Without knowledge you are not really winning that battle.  How will Sasuke know about Preta Path? How would Sasuke know about 



He's Never seen them before...he doesn't have knowledge.  Nagato literally can rip out Sasuke soul without Sasuke even knowing what is happening. 

Itachi got Nagato because He was watching pain and them for years, Since he was gathering intel on them.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> If you read my profile Sasuke and Madara are my favorites...so you trying to pull double standard card on me doesn't work



Don't care. You're still wrong, as can be observed by anyone with common sense.



MYGod000 said:


> I've literally said If proof can be giving that Sasuke can use PS then I'll change my Positions on it



I gave you proof from the manga and proof from the Databook.

The manga shows Sasuke using an IDENTICAL Susano'o . That Susano'o has the SAME appearance as's Perfect Susano'o ().

At this point, you're either being intellectually dishonest or just plain stupid.



MYGod000 said:


> I even Talked to my brother who's also a Sasuke fan...who out right said out his mouth He doesn't think Sasuke would win because he doesn't have knowledge of any of  Nagato Jutsu



I don't give a shit what your ''brother'' thinks. I give a shit about logic and facts, and you have provided none thus far.



MYGod000 said:


> Knowledge is a big Factor in Naruto fights.  Without knowledge you are not really winning that battle.  How will Sasuke know about Preta Path? How would Sasuke know about



You don't need knowledge if you're sufficiently stronger than an opponent.

EMS Sasuke >>> Nagato. He needs no knowledge to win.



MYGod000 said:


> He's Never seen them before...he doesn't have knowledge.  Nagato literally can rip out Sasuke soul without Sasuke even knowing what is happening



I mean, even KCM Naruto didn't immediately die to Nagato's Human Path...EMS Sasuke would flatten Nagato if he did that.



MYGod000 said:


> Itachi got Nagato because He was watching pain and them for years, Since he was gathering intel on them.



Fanfiction.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Don't care. You're still wrong, as can be observed by anyone with common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Like I said, the Databook states there is a Difference from what Sasuke did and what Madara did. Moreover, it also states Madara is the only one who can use PS.


What I don't understand is how you going to mention Databooks yet the same Databook states twice that Sasuke doesn't have PS.


If sasuke can use PS then he wins. 



Like I said Even while Sasuke was Amp by BSM Naruto He couldn't do PS.  He doesn't have the power to do so.

 You just don't Think rationally, and The same Databook You speaking on debunks you.

just accept That He doesn't have it and stop at me if all you going to do is waste both my and your time insulting.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Like I said, the Databook states there is a Difference from what Sasuke did and what Madara did. Moreover, it also states Madara is the only one who can use PS



The Databook does not state there is a difference. 

*Quite the opposite* - it mentions Sasuke's Susano'o in the_ same section as Madara's Susano'o_.



MYGod000 said:


> What I don't understand is how you going to mention Databooks yet the same Databook states twice that Sasuke doesn't have PS



The Databook *never *states that even once though? 

It just *doesn't mention he has it *- that's* not *the same as it saying he* doesn't *have it. 

This Databook doesn't list Madara as a user of Izanagi or Danzo as a user of Summoning Jutsu either. Does that mean Madara didn't use Izanagi to survive the First Hokage or Danzo didn't, in fact, use Summoning Jutsu? Of course not. You're confusing omission with commission here.



MYGod000 said:


> If sasuke can use Ps then he wins, If he cant he loses



Good thing he can use PS and therefore he wins.





MYGod000 said:


> Like I said Even while Sasuke was Amp by BSM Naruto He couldn't do PS. He doesn't have the power to do so



Oh, but he DOES have the power to do so. He literally used PS even before he and Naruto merged their respective modes.

Also, I notice you didn't respond to this: The manga shows Sasuke using an IDENTICAL Susano'o . That Susano'o has the SAME appearance as's Perfect Susano'o ().



MYGod000 said:


> You just don't Think rationally, and The same Databook You speaking on debunks you.



Except it...*doesn't debunk me at all*? It literally does the opposite by mentioning Sasuke's Susano'o in the same section as Madara's.
Also, pretty sure YOU brought the Databook up, not me. Congrats, you played yourself by bringing a source that contradicts you.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The Databook does not state there is a difference.
> 
> *Quite the opposite* - it mentions Sasuke's Susano'o in the_ same section as Madara's Susano'o_.
> 
> ...




What Madara used with Kurama wasn't PS. 

What Sasuke used With Naruto wasn't Perfect Susano. 


No, he doesn't have it.   If he did have it we would have used it against Juubi Obito from the start when they were getting stomped. 


 he needed Naruto amp to even use Armored Version of Susanoo. He needed Jugo Senjutsu  on His V3 Susanoo. 


Why use V3 if you are claiming he had PS?  clearly he couldn't use it or maintain it.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> What Madara used with Kurama wasn't PS



Incorrect, as he used Majestic Attire Susano'o which is a DERIVATIVE of Perfect Susano'o in the same sense Rasenshuriken is a derivative of Rasengan and Inferno Style: Tool Manipulation is a derivative of Amaterasu. If you can do MAS, you can do PS.

MAS is nothing more than a repurposed PS. *It uses PS itself to cover Kurama though* - that much is clear* from the armor and the head-diamond being identical to what PS has on its own*. I like how you don't have the gumption to even address this fact.



MYGod000 said:


> What Sasuke used With Naruto wasn't Perfect Susano



Then why does it look exactly the same as a Perfect Susano'o?



MYGod000 said:


> No, he doesn't have it.   If he did have it we would have used it against Juubi Obito from the start when they were getting stomped



Because Sasuke didn't have it earlier? His eyes were getting stronger throughout the battle. This is literally how Sasuke operates lmao. He went from being owned by KN0 Naruto at the Valley of the End to owning KN0 Naruto back by awakening a 3T Sharingan. He went from not even having Amaterasu at first against Killer Bee to using Inferno Style, which is more advanced, at the FKS. He went from barely being able to use V2 Susano'o at the Kage Summit to using V3 for a prolonged period of time against Danzo to using a short burst of V4 against Kakashi. He went from being little better than his MS self against Kabuto in Ryuchi Cave to acquiring a giant legged Susano'o against the Ten-Tails Tree to acquiring Perfect Susano'o itself while fighting Ten-Tails Obito. Even in the final arc, he goes from being weaker than a non-Tailed Beast Avatar SPSM Naruto against Kaguya to rivaling SPBSM Naruto in their fight.

I mean, it's pretty fucking obvious lmao. Sasuke even goes from being envious of Naruto to being completely confident in his ability to fight alongside Naruto, even *mocking *him at one point for putting him on the same level as himself. It's literally a trend for him to develop his eye powers with each successive battle. The Sasuke who fought Ten-Tails Obito =/ the Sasuke who fought Kabuto.

he needed Naruto amp to even use Armored Version of Susanoo. He needed Jugo Senjutsu  on His V3 Susanoo

Liar. Sasuke always had *armored Susano'o* on his own. He literally uses it to kill White Zetsu clones at one point. Juugo's ''Senjutsu'' amp was taken away when his V3 Susano'o was destroyed. After that, Sasuke on his own awakens a Perfect Susano'o.



MYGod000 said:


> Why use V3 if you are claiming he had PS?  clearly he couldn't use it or maintain it.



Because he didn't have it *at the moment*.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Incorrect, as he used Majestic Attire Susano'o which is a DERIVATIVE of Perfect Susano'o in the same sense Rasenshuriken is a derivative of Rasengan and Inferno Style: Tool Manipulation is a derivative of Amaterasu. If you can do MAS, you can do PS.
> 
> MAS is nothing more than a repurposed PS. *It uses PS itself to cover Kurama though* - that much is clear* from the armor and the head-diamond being identical to what PS has on its own*. I like how you don't have the gumption to even address this fact.
> 
> ...






Jugo Was their with him, and he was being Amped by Naruto.  it's not a feat Sasuke by himself can do.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Jugo Was their with him, and he was being Amped by Naruto.  it's not a feat Sasuke by himself can do.


. There's also no proof he was being ''amped by Naruto'' (Sasuke literally manifests a Susano'o head here on his ownand no proof that Naruto can somehow enable Sasuke to obtain an entirely new FORM of Susano'o. Having more chakra only makes your existing techniques stronger, it doesn't allow you to perform NEW techniques.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> . There's also no proof he was being ''amped by Naruto'' (Sasuke literally manifests a Susano'o head here on his ownand no proof that Naruto can somehow enable Sasuke to obtain an entirely new FORM of Susano'o. Having more chakra only makes your existing techniques stronger, it doesn't allow you to perform NEW techniques.







Jugo was close to Sasuke, and Sasuke has only done Majestic Attire while in Close Proximity of BM Naruto who chakra amps Shinobi. 


Moreover,  Naruto also already Gave Sasuke an Amp. 



these amps don't leave as It was already stated by Other Shinobi that it was still inside them even after the Amp went down.



What Sasuke Did can't be used since it was done while he was Being Amped by Naruto's 9 tails chakra.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Jugo was close to Sasuke



Irrelevant. Juugo's Seal was not active. I literally showed you what it looks like it when it is.



MYGod000 said:


> and Sasuke has only done Majestic Attire while in Close Proximity of BM Naruto who chakra amps Shinobi



Dumb argument, considering that Majestic Attire is literally just making another creature (Kurama) wear a Perfect Susano'o.

Chakra amping Sasuke would also be useless as it would only make his existing techniques stronger, it wouldn't give him an *entirely new technique* (which Majestic Attire and Perfect Susano'o ARE). Finally, there's no proof Naruto had anything to do with it.



MYGod000 said:


> Moreover,  Naruto also already Gave Sasuke an Amp



This amp was gone after Sasuke's Susano'o was destroyed by Obito.



MYGod000 said:


> these amps don't leave as It was already stated by Other Shinobi that it was still inside them even after the Amp went down



But in Sasuke's case, the amp DID leave. His entire shroud was DESTROYED, of course it left lmao.



MYGod000 said:


> What Sasuke Did can't be used since it was done while he was Being Amped by Naruto's 9 tails chakra.



It's called Perfect Susano'o, and having more chakra doesn't teach you how to use new techniques.

To use new techniques, YOU must have the skill necessary to use them yourself. 

Chakra amping Sasuke would also be useless as it would only make his existing techniques stronger, it wouldn't give him an *entirely new technique* (which Majestic Attire and Perfect Susano'o ARE). Finally, there's no proof Naruto had anything to do with it.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Irrelevant. Juugo's Seal was not active. I literally showed you what it looks like it when it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





the chakra was never gone. Hell Even Kin and Gin still had Kyuubi chakra in them long after they died.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> the chakra was never gone. Hell Even Kin and Gin still had Kyuubi chakra in them long after they died.



Bad comparison. Kinkaku and Ginkaku ate Kurama's meat and were inside him for a week. 

Sasuke just got a bit of Naruto's and Minato's chakra and the cloak was destroyed by Obito's attacks.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bad comparison. Kinkaku and Ginkaku ate Kurama's meat and were inside him for a week.
> 
> Sasuke just got a bit of Naruto's and Minato's chakra and the cloak was destroyed by Obito's attacks.





Sakura stated the chakra didn't leave, it only got smaller.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 11, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Sakura stated the chakra didn't leave, it only got smaller.



That has nothing to do with Sasuke who didn't get a Kurama cloak at the same time as Sakura and the others did.

Sasuke's one DID leave - it was DESTROYED. Sakura's one merely faded away. They are not the same, bubba.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That has nothing to do with Sasuke who didn't get a Kurama cloak at the same time as Sakura and the others did.
> 
> Sasuke's one DID leave - it was DESTROYED. Sakura's one merely faded away. They are not the same, bubba.




He did, just like everyone else did.   Now, you are making stuff up. Your claiming that Sasuke Cloak left but everyone else didn't. 

LMFAO your concession is accepted.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 13, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> In the manga panel, water droplets are dripping opposite to the trajectory of the boulder.
> 
> Unless you think Kishimoto wanted it to seem like Nagato manifested a boulder out of thin air, I'm pretty sure Nagato pulled it out from underwater lmao



From the part that could be underwater.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 13, 2020)

Anime often contradicts the manga and the manga is the main source, which also appeared earlier than anime. 

Manga is canon, anime isnt and there is no proof that Nagato is capable of pulling Sasuke out of his Susanoo. From what we've seen, he would pull Susanoo itself, not Sasuke.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 14, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Anime often contradicts the manga and the manga is the main source, which also appeared earlier than anime.
> 
> Manga is canon, anime isnt and there is no proof that Nagato is capable of pulling Sasuke out of his Susanoo. From what we've seen, he would pull Susanoo itself, not Sasuke.



Bansho Tenin is a pinpoint attack, rather than a vacuum that pulls in everything and anything. The nail in the board was just an example to show that it doesn't affect any of its surroundings _other _than the targeted object.

Another example is how the Deva Path was behind the Asura Path and its huge sword, but Bansho Tenin was only affecting Kakashi, and not the Asura Path too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> He did, just like everyone else did.   Now, you are making stuff up. Your claiming that Sasuke Cloak left but everyone else didn't.
> 
> LMFAO your concession is accepted.



Yes, because Sasuke's was destroyed.

I won't concede to you.


----------



## Raiken (Aug 14, 2020)

Is this still going on?

EMS Sasuke is only slightly above KCM1 Naruto. Prime Nagato is solidly above KCM1 Naruto.

Nagato has shown to be able to react to Amaterasu and can counter with Shinra Tensei. So Sasuke ain't hard countering him.

BM Naruto > Fanfic Prime Nagato w/ Mobility > Prime Nagato > EMS Sasuke > KCM1 Naruto


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Is this still going on?
> 
> EMS Sasuke is only slightly above KCM1 Naruto. Prime Nagato is solidly above KCM1 Naruto



No, EMS Sasuke is on par with BSM Naruto who >>> BM Naruto who > Prime Nagato.

Also, don't pull that ''sAsUKE gOT kURaMa SaGE bOosT'' fanfiction. Sasuke can use Perfect Susano'o on his own. Having Kurama's chakra or Sage chakra doesn't help you develop new ocular powers, it only strengthens EXISTING ones.



Cryorex said:


> Nagato has shown to be able to react to Amaterasu and can counter with Shinra Tensei



Good thing that jutsu has a time limit which Sasuke can capitalize on by using Amaterasu again lol, or even using Inferno Style to hit him with the dispersed flames.


----------



## Zef (Aug 15, 2020)

Hold up.......



Mike307 said:


> I've got Nagato. EMS Sasuke couldn't even keep up with Sage Mode Kabuto.


In which instance of the Uchiha brothers fight was there a moment for Sasuke to "_keep up_" with Kabuto?


Am I forgetting something?

Itachi was the one attacking Kabuto head on with CQC while Sasuke mainly sat back doing long range shit like Katon, Amaterasu, and Susano'o Arrow.

His Susano'o Arrow missed once due to Kabuto's SM but then on a second attempt he managed to pin Kabuto's tail.


You're wording your post like Sasuke got blitzed, or was physically slower and I'm really curious where in the fight you're getting that notion from because Itachi kept up with Kabuto fine in their CQC clashes and its generally believed here that EMS Sasuke has better stats then Itachi(or am I wrong?)

IDK why the Kabuto fight is even referenced for EMS Sasuke feats. Itachi instructed him to play a backup roll and not to kill Kabuto.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2020)

Zef said:


> Hold up.......
> 
> 
> In which instance of the Uchiha brothers fight was there a moment for Sasuke to "_keep up_" with Kabuto?
> ...



And this was a blooming Sasuke.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 15, 2020)

P-Susanoo gets counted by CT; Nagato wins


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## MYGod000 (Aug 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes, because Sasuke's was destroyed.
> 
> I won't concede to you.




you're only assuming it did with no evidence.  When everyone else still keep their. 


Yes, you need to concede it's what is called being civil in debate.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> you're only assuming it did with no evidence



The shroud disappears after Sasuke gets knocked out of the sky by Obito and his Susano'o is destroyed. It's missing.



MYGod000 said:


> When everyone else still keep their



Everyone else didn't lose their shrouds to a DIRECT ATTACK. Bad comparison.



MYGod000 said:


> Yes, you need to concede it's what is called being civil in debate.



You made false accusations against me and are making up lie after lie. I will never concede to you.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The shroud disappears after Sasuke gets knocked out of the sky by Obito and his Susano'o is destroyed. It's missing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




your assumption doesn't make sense at all.  by that Logic Everyone 9 tails Cloak was gone after Naruto wasted up all his Powers protecting people from the 10 tails attack. 

Your making assumptions and now you can't admit when you are wrong. Sasuke Had the 9 tails amping his powers I've already accepted concession.  


sad that since i've been on here only a very few people actually understands how to debate and the rules on debates, sadly you are not one of them. I told you to agree to disagree you didn't want to do that. your concession is accepted.


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The shroud disappears after Sasuke gets knocked out of the sky by Obito and his Susano'o is destroyed. It's missing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




your concession is accepted. Accept defeat and accept that the better debater won.

everyone took direct attacks from the 10 tails buddy.


Edit: Your last part is Appeal to Emotion fallacy. You won't concede because you are emotionally upset...so regardless of evidence You won't concede so thank you for at least admitting that.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> your assumption doesn't make sense at all



It does if you know how to read. Sasuke's shroud was *destroyed in the attack, just like his Susano'o was*. Unlike his Susano'o, we never see Sasuke recomposing his shroud again (*or* Naruto doing it for him). I don't care if you don't like it - this is reality!



MYGod000 said:


> by that Logic Everyone 9 tails Cloak was gone after Naruto wasted up all his Powers protecting people from the 10 tails attack



Except we see their cloaks _weren't _gone and definitely not as a result of the attack, so this comparison fails miserably.



MYGod000 said:


> Your making assumptions and now you can't admit when you are wrong. Sasuke Had the 9 tails amping his powers I've already accepted concession



I'm not making any assumptions that aren't backed up by the manga. You make the assumption Sasuke still has a Kurama amp after the shroud was destroyed (repeat: *destroyed*, not vanished). You're also making the assumption that Kurama amping his powers somehow allows him to use Perfect Susano'o in spite of having zero evidence to back that up (Sasuke manifests Susano'o before coming in contact with Naruto again and all Kurama's chakra does is _strengthen a person's existing attacks_, it doesn't give them new ones). Him acquiring a Perfect Susano'o has to do with his ocular powers improving, which have nothing to do with Kurama.



MYGod000 said:


> sad that since i've been on here only a very few people actually understands how to debate and the rules on debates, sadly you are not one of them. I told you to agree to disagree you didn't want to do that. your concession is accepted.



I don't have to listen to you, and you look foolish accepting a concession I have not made at all.

Also, you're a terrible debater.



MYGod000 said:


> your concession is accepted. Accept defeat and accept that the better debater won



Literally no one thinks you won except for you and the Nagato fanboys.



MYGod000 said:


> everyone took direct attacks from the 10 tails buddy



But not everyone's shrouds were shown *destroyed by a direct attack*, buddy.



MYGod000 said:


> Edit: Your last part is Appeal to Emotion fallacy. You won't concede because you are emotionally upset...so regardless of evidence You won't concede so thank you for at least admitting that.



No, I won't concede because you have failed miserably at arguing your case and are a terrible as well as dishonest debater.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 15, 2020)

Imho, the only "proof' people have that Nagato cannot react to the speed of EMS Sasuke's Susanoo at all is when *Sasuke's Susanoo itself is clearly substantially amped by Yin & Yang Kurama's strongest chakra cloak, as well as Jugo's senjutsu chakra, who himself is substantially amped by Yin & Yang Kurama's strongest cloak as well. *So I think since Sasuke himself is unamped here, the notion that he can just straight-up activate Susanoo and use its sword to blitz and one-shot Nagato "no-diff' as some here describe is pretty unsubstantiated in the long run.

I will also not deny that Sasuke can utilize legged V3 Susanoo and CBS, however, I do not believe he can use these things on his own. But even if he can, they wouldn't be nearly as powerful anyway. The only legit feat he has himself that I believe can be attributed to him at the time is his EMS capable of tracking Juubito's movements, but that is irrelevant if his Susanoo is no longer boosted enough to actually move fast enough to put pressure on him anyway (which it wouldn't be in this scenario with no buffs from Naruto and Jugo). So really, he simply doesn't have anything going for him at this point. 

On top of that, Sasuke's entire arsenal is also useless against Nagato. He can legit just use the Preta Path to suck Sasuke's entire arsenal including all of his MS jutsus, so outside of Kirin there isn't much Sasuke can do. Then factor in the Deva Path to just pull Sasuke towards him while absorbing everything, and then use the Asura Path to blow him to bits with missiles and chakra lasers, or the Animal Path to literally trample all over him and Sasuke is toast. Without the amps, Sasuke was portrayed as being on the same general level as NTCM Naruto (who wasn't even at 100% himself at the time) and was very clearly portrayed as way weaker than Naruto the instant he used TBM. So if anything I think its a lot more outlandish to be taking feats of an amped Sasuke and applying them to his unamped self and saying he literally wins "no-diff" here if anything. If you ask me, Nagato is clearly much stronger than he is without the amps and wins comfortably here.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It does if you know how to read. Sasuke's shroud was *destroyed in the attack, just like his Susano'o was*. Unlike his Susano'o, we never see Sasuke recomposing his shroud again (*or* Naruto doing it for him). I don't care if you don't like it - this is reality!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Honestly that is an Argument from Popularity, You are trying to claim you won because of a poll?  you clearly don't know how to debate at all.  All you are doing is a circular argument fallacy.  You've not come to any new conclusion and keep repeating the same stuff with no new information.

 That not how The cloak works, It connected to Naruto's chakra...So along as he can has chakra, just as the cloak was shown in the Manga when it came back stronger after he went BSM...they will have the Cloak in them, Naruto is trying to protect all his Friends including Sasuke.



It doesn't matter how many points you take away out of Anger...the evidence points towards Naruto cloak amping Sasuke.  I've tried to find common ground with you and even said if he can do it wouldn't the Cloak and have Knowledge of Nagato's abilities then I'll give it to Sasuke. Realistically he has no knowledge of Nagato or his abilities. So rationally thinking he can't win.

This is a Healthy Nagato with No crippled legs...we can't really determine how much faster he would be but we know that a crippled Nagato was able to Blitz KCM Naruto...who Minato stated was around EMS Sasuke Level.

You need to stop coming back I'm actually starting to fell bad smacking you around in here.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Honestly that is an Argument from Popularity, You are trying to claim you won because of a poll?



I do not remember mentioning a poll anywhere at all. I'm just pointing out that no one except those who have a bias in favor of Nagato would consider your argument a good one. Let's face it, you've never come up with a good argument - ever.



MYGod000 said:


> you clearly don't know how to debate at all.  All you are doing is a circular argument fallacy



Sure, I'm the one who doesn't know how to debate...according to the guy who keeps making shit up to suit his arguments.



MYGod000 said:


> You've not come to any new conclusion and keep repeating the same stuff with no new information



Pot, meet kettle.



MYGod000 said:


> That not how The cloak works, It connected to Naruto's chakra...So along as he can has chakra, just as the cloak was shown in the Manga when it came back stronger after he went BSM...they will have the Cloak in them



Unless it's *destroyed*, which is my argument.



MYGod000 said:


> Naruto is trying to protect all his Friends including Sasuke


*Show me where the cloak came back for Sasuke*. .



MYGod000 said:


> It doesn't matter how many points you take away out of Anger...the evidence points towards Naruto cloak amping Sasuke



I don't see any evidence. Headcanon is not evidence.

You also haven't proven how having access to Kurama's chakra somehow gives Sa



MYGod000 said:


> This is a Healthy Nagato with No crippled legs...we can't really determine how much faster he would be *but we know that a crippled Nagato was able to Blitz KCM Naruto...who Minato stated was around EMS Sasuke Level*



That was, so that information is outdated and useless.



MYGod000 said:


> You need to stop coming back I'm actually starting to fell bad smacking you around in here.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> Bansho Tenin is a pinpoint attack, rather than a vacuum that pulls in everything and anything. The nail in the board was just an example to show that it doesn't affect any of its surroundings _other _than the targeted object.
> 
> Another example is how the Deva Path was behind the Asura Path and its huge sword, but Bansho Tenin was only affecting Kakashi, and not the Asura Path too.



The nail was not covered by anything. Asura Path didnt hide Deva completely.


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## Mike307 (Aug 16, 2020)

Zef said:


> Hold up.......
> 
> 
> In which instance of the Uchiha brothers fight was there a moment for Sasuke to "_keep up_" with Kabuto?
> ...




You left out the fact that Kabuto nearly captured Sasuke with the blinding 

*Link Removed* 

As you said Itachi instructed him to do everything & if Sasuke hadn't listened he would've been captured.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I do not remember mentioning a poll anywhere at all. I'm just pointing out that no one except those who have a bias in favor of Nagato would consider your argument a good one. Let's face it, you've never come up with a good argument - ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I showed you  Naruto's Chakra on  Sasuke when he they did there final attack to Obito. 

That was when Sasuke Did his Majestic Susanoo...Regardless you've not showed  Sasuke doing anything without help so far.  Like I said your argument is circular. You've yet to show how Sasuke can win this fight when all of his Arsenal is chakra Based Attacks. 


 Throwing Chakra at Nagato is just going to charge him up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 18, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> I showed you  Naruto's Chakra on  Sasuke when he they did there final attack to Obito



I don't see a Kurama shroud around Sasuke, sorry. 



MYGod000 said:


> That was when Sasuke Did his Majestic Susanoo



Sasuke using Majestic Armor Susano'o to protect BSM Naruto =/ Sasuke needing BSM Naruto's help to use Majestic Armor Susano'o.

Correlation is not causation.



MYGod000 said:


> Regardless you've not showed  Sasuke doing anything without help so far.  Like I said your argument is circular



And you've failed to present any proof Naruto somehow helped Sasuke access whole new forms of Susano'o.



MYGod000 said:


> Throwing Chakra at Nagato is just going to charge him up.



Thankfully Sasuke doesn't have to throw chakra at Nagato - Perfect Susano'o shockwaves tear him in half.


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## Danisor (Aug 19, 2020)

This is still going on? wow


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Aug 19, 2020)

Why do people always make the false claim that PS is somehow immune to be negated by Nagato's Preta Aura? KCM Naruto and Killer Bee were neg diffed in seconds by it.

If Nagato can focus his chakra on nuking Konoha with only one of his six paths abilities then he should be able to do it with all of them. He wasn't even trying with Naruto and Killer Bee in his weakened Edo form. 

If Sasuke gets his PS sucked away he isn't just putting it back on in 5 seconds. He will get soul ripped and GGed.


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## Danisor (Aug 19, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Why do people always make the false claim that PS is somehow immune to be negated by Nagato's Preta Aura? KCM Naruto and Killer Bee were neg diffed in seconds by it.


You're back... that's a awesome avatar, dude


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Aug 19, 2020)

Danisor said:


> You're back... that's a awesome avatar, dude


Yes I am dropping in to aid team Nagato against the Uchiha wanker horde. And thanks I like it alot.


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## Danisor (Aug 19, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Yes I am dropping in to aid team Nagato against the Uchiha wanker horde. And thanks I like it alot.


No problem, that's lewd


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 19, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Why do people always make the false claim that PS is somehow immune to be negated by Nagato's Preta Aura? KCM Naruto and Killer Bee were neg diffed in seconds by it



Because Nagato's Preta Path has limits and Perfect Susano'o can attack it with ranged shockwaves, so...

KCM Naruto and Killer Bee are trash compared to Perfect Susano'o.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> If Nagato can focus his chakra on nuking Konoha with only one of his six paths abilities then he should be able to do it with all of them. He wasn't even trying with Naruto and Killer Bee in his weakened Edo form



This doesn't make any sense.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> If Sasuke gets his PS sucked away he isn't just putting it back on in 5 seconds. He will get soul ripped and GGed.



He won't get his PS sucked away, so the rest is irrelevant.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Aug 19, 2020)

I have a power scaling question we all know Nagato neg diffed V2 Killer Bee and KCM Naruto. If you combine their power and then compare it to a PS controlled by Sasuke ( Without any Sage chakra bs) how much more chakra density does Sasuke's PS have?

I am pretty sure Sasuke's PS is not as strong as Madara's. Correct me if you think I am wrong. However call me crazy but a blast from Sasuke's PS would be in the same ball park as a combined blast from KCM Naruto and full power Killer Bee. 

I welcome all constructive criticism.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 19, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I have a power scaling question we all know Nagato neg diffed V2 Killer Bee and KCM Naruto. If you combine their power and then compare it to a PS controlled by Sasuke ( Without any Sage chakra bs) how much more chakra density does Sasuke's PS have?



 which >>> his Tailed Beast Mode which >>> KCM.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I am pretty sure Sasuke's PS is not as strong as Madara's. Correct me if you think I am wrong. However call me crazy but a blast from Sasuke's PS would be in the same ball park as a combined blast from KCM Naruto and full power Killer Bee.



I won't call you crazy - just misinformed.

I can understand your point about Sasuke's PS being weaker but this manga is notorious for size inconsistencies and Sasuke's PS can actually cast Ninjutsu like Chidori or Inferno Style - an ability Madara's hasn't shown for whatever reason. The power of the construct however should be on par with BSM Kurama Naruto which makes KCM Naruto and BM Bee look like fodder.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 19, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Location: Sannin deadlock.
> Knowledge: manga.
> IC: to kill.
> Restrictions: no restrictions.
> ...



Pre Juubito, post, it doesn't matter, Nagato cockslaps this idiot 10/10 times 

Sasuke is not Narutos equal, he's only his equal after being amped BY NARUTO and Juugo, and even then Nagato can give serious problems to BSM Naruto.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 19, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I have a power scaling question we all know Nagato neg diffed V2 Killer Bee and KCM Naruto. If you combine their power and then compare it to a PS controlled by Sasuke ( Without any Sage chakra bs) how much more chakra density does Sasuke's PS have?
> 
> I am pretty sure Sasuke's PS is not as strong as Madara's. Correct me if you think I am wrong. However call me crazy but a blast from Sasuke's PS would be in the same ball park as a combined blast from KCM Naruto and full power Killer Bee.
> 
> I welcome all constructive criticism.



Sasukes PS is not even remotely in league with Madaras until Sasuke gets Rikudo Rinnegan


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 20, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Anime often contradicts the manga and the manga is the main source, which also appeared earlier than anime.
> 
> Manga is canon, anime isnt and there is no proof that Nagato is capable of pulling Sasuke out of his Susanoo. From what we've seen, he would pull Susanoo itself, not Sasuke.


Except since the Manga gives explicit indication that the entirety of the Boulder was soaked with water it’s safe to say that the entirety of the boulder was submerged in water.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Pre Juubito, post, it doesn't matter, Nagato cockslaps this idiot 10/10 times



It does matter.



Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke is not Narutos equal, he's only his equal after being amped BY NARUTO and Juugo



Wrong. Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o matches Naruto's Sage Tailed Beast Mode on its own.

He didn't have Juugo or Naruto's help there.



Troyse22 said:


> and even then Nagato can give serious problems to BSM Naruto.



Lol no. BM Naruto would crush Nagato. A chakra roar would KO him.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wrong. Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o matches Naruto's Sage Tailed Beast Mode on its own.
> 
> He didn't have Juugo or Naruto's help there.


When and where

Only after Sasuke gets Rikudo Rinnegan does he ACTUALLY match and equal Naruto on his own

Sasuke was shitting his panties when he saw what Naruto could do, Naruto is legit AT WORST a tier in front of Sasuke. Naruto could give a founder serious fucking problems, they laugh at Sasuke.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol no. BM Naruto would crush Nagato. A chakra roar would KO him.



Lol Nagatos ST is>>>Chakra roar


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> When and where
> 
> Only after Sasuke gets Rikudo Rinnegan does he ACTUALLY match and equal Naruto on his own





*Both Sasuke and Naruto got an equal share of Hagoromo's power*.

The fact their chakra avatars are portrayed as equally strong - after both received an equal power boost - disproves what you're saying.



Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke was shitting his panties when he saw what Naruto could do, Naruto is legit AT WORST a tier in front of Sasuke. Naruto could give a founder serious fucking problems, they laugh at Sasuke



...You do realize Sasuke's eye powers were growing throughout the fight, right?

Not that Naruto and Juugo's amps have anything to do with Perfect Susano'o anyway. That's Sasuke's own technique - the only way Sasuke can use it is if he _knows_ how to use it.



Troyse22 said:


> Lol Nagatos ST is>>>Chakra roar



Nagato's version is on par with KN6's - MAYBE KN8's, at best. BM's is stronger though.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 20, 2020)

Jesus christ this pile of stupid is back again 

Its amazing to me how people will claim Nagato wins when his feats are blatantly not enough to even react to Sasukes Susanoo attacks (which he spams and opens with all the time)

Gotta be a special kind of blind to back Nagato here


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jesus christ this pile of stupid is back again
> 
> Its amazing to me how people will claim Nagato wins when his feats are blatantly not enough to even react to Sasukes Susanoo attacks (which he spams and opens with all the time)
> 
> Gotta be a special kind of blind to back Nagato here



Agreed. It's like people don't read the manga any more.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> *Both Sasuke and Naruto got an equal share of Hagoromo's power*.
> 
> The fact their chakra avatars are portrayed as equally strong - after both received an equal power boost - disproves what you're saying.





Except Naruto is superior under his own power and Sasuke needs to capture and harness the 8.5 Bijuu to match his max power.

Naruto has always been in front of Sasuke in the WA. He AGAIN needed outside influence to match Narutos max power. I was wrong saying Sasuke caught up with Rinnegan, he was always behind now that I think about it.

Dude needs outside amps constantly to equal Naruto LOL



Aegon Targaryen said:


> ...You do realize Sasuke's eye powers were growing throughout the fight, right?



So were Narutos, he was JUST learning to use SM with BM, it was literally his first BSM tech that had Sasuke shitting his panties.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not that Naruto and Juugo's amps have anything to do with Perfect Susano'o anyway. That's Sasuke's own technique - the only way Sasuke can use it is if he _knows_ how to use it.



Wrong. SM can significantly amp existing techs, Susanoo is NO different.

And Narutos Chakra was stated to be a flat 3x amp

EMS Sasuke cant use PS under his own power.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nagato's version is on par with KN6's - MAYBE KN8's, at best. BM's is stronger though.



Uhhhh no, that's Pain, we've seen Nagato use casual STs that would equal a massive one by pain, the potency of the Rinnegan techniques is amplified massively in Nagato.

His casual STs scale to Bijuu tier EASILY.

He deflects Narutos Chakra roar and sends him flying.

Granted Naruto wins with overwhelming physical might, not because Chakra roar GG lmao


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 20, 2020)

> Sasuke needed Biju to match Narutos own power

No

No he fucking didnt 

Sasuke needed the Biju to counter Narutos massive NE amp 

Pegging that as "Narutos own power" is beyond dishonest

Base to Base, 1 to 1, Sasuke had zero issues keeping up


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Except Naruto is superior under his own power and Sasuke needs to capture and harness the 8.5 Bijuu to match his max power



The fuck? Sasuke wasn't using the power of those Tailed Beasts at that point. That was _his own power_ versus Naruto's own power.



Troyse22 said:


> Naruto has always been in front of Sasuke in the WA. He AGAIN needed outside influence to match Narutos max power. I was wrong saying Sasuke caught up with Rinnegan, he was always behind now that I think about it



Naruto ALSO needed an extra burst of natural energy to rival Sasuke's Tailed Beast Perfect Susano'o, your point?

Naruto and Sasuke both fought at ''max'' levels they're not normally capable of.



Troyse22 said:


> So were Narutos, he was JUST learning to use SM with BM, it was literally his first BSM tech that had Sasuke shitting his panties



Flawed comparison. Naruto just combined two power-ups _he already had_.

Sasuke's eye powers were literally evolving. 



Troyse22 said:


> And Narutos Chakra was stated to be a flat 3x amp
> 
> EMS Sasuke cant use PS under his own power



Headcanon. 

Perfect Susano'o is an entirely new form of Susano'o - just having more chakra isn't going to help him use it. That would be like saying Kakashi could perform the Tailed Beast Bomb if he had a power boost. You realize how fucking stupid that is, right?



Troyse22 said:


> Uhhhh no, that's Pain



Pain got his ass kicked by KN6 Naruto when he used that jutsu. He needed Celestial Destroyer.



Troyse22 said:


> we've seen Nagato use casual STs that would equal a massive one by pain



Never happened. Base Bee tanked one.



Troyse22 said:


> the potency of the Rinnegan techniques is amplified massively in Nagato
> 
> His casual STs scale to Bijuu tier EASILY



Fanfiction. Base Bee tanked one.



Troyse22 said:


> He deflects Narutos Chakra roar and sends him flying



Nope, Naruto uses his tails as an anchor and reverses the force back at Nagato...worst comes to worst.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 20, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> The nail was not covered by anything. Asura Path didnt hide Deva completely.



The nail not being covered by anything doesn’t dispute the fact that Bansho Tenin is a pinpoint attack, and not a vacuum.

The Asura Path, from Kakashi’s perspective, was directly in front of the Deva Path, and was not affected by Bansho Tenin.

Nagato pulled a boulder that was fully submerged in water. By your logic, it would have pulled the water first, but it didn’t. If Bansho Tenin was used on the Susanoo user themselves and not the Susanoo construct, it should pull the user out of the Susanoo, _exactly the same way Gaara did it._


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## Bob74h (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Agreed. It's like people don't read the manga any more.



Well to be fair watching the anime serves the same purpose so what's the big deal if people did not read the manga?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 20, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> The nail not being covered by anything doesn’t dispute the fact that Bansho Tenin is a pinpoint attack, and not a vacuum.
> 
> The Asura Path, from Kakashi’s perspective, was directly in front of the Deva Path, and was not affected by Bansho Tenin.
> 
> Nagato pulled a boulder that was fully submerged in water. By your logic, it would have pulled the water first, but it didn’t. If Bansho Tenin was used on the Susanoo user themselves and not the Susanoo construct, it should pull the user out of the Susanoo, _exactly the same way Gaara did it._



Pinpoint attack that has never, even shown the ability to affect objects behind any obstacle. Susanoo covers Sasuke *completely* and that is why it will attract The Susanoo itself, not Sasuke. 

As for the rock, again, we dont know if a part of it was out of the water or not, Nagato pulled it off-panel.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I do not remember mentioning a poll anywhere at all. I'm just pointing out that no one except those who have a bias in favor of Nagato would consider your argument a good one. Let's face it, you've never come up with a good argument - ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Well...you're Wrong...but what else is new. 


No one has been Bias at all...you just can't comprehend why people are saying Sasuke loses even those We are literally spelling it out for you. 

I said Sasuke loses because All of his Top tier Attacks are _*Ninjutsu based which uses Chakra.

*_



You not being able to Fathom that type of reasoning that any Ninjutsu Sasuke uses is negated by Nagato's Rinnegan isn't my problem. No bias was ever used against Sasuke. Regardless...Sasuke is one of my Favorite Characters anyways...so moot point.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Well...you're Wrong...but what else is new.
> 
> 
> No one has been Bias at all...you just can't comprehend why people are saying Sasuke loses even those We are literally spelling it out for you.
> ...



@King789 @Hellraiser @Kagutsuchi @Mar55 Watch out, we got a badass over here.


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## Android (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @King789 @Hellraiser @Kagutsuchi @Mar55 Watch out, we got a badass over here.


Who?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> Who?



The guy I'm responding to.


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## Android (Aug 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The guy I'm responding to.


Oh yeah, I'm ignoring him tbh


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 20, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


> Oh yeah, I'm ignoring him tbh



Fair lol.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 20, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Pinpoint attack that has never, even shown the ability to affect objects behind any obstacle. Susanoo covers Sasuke *completely* and that is why it will attract The Susanoo itself, not Sasuke.
> 
> As for the rock, again, we dont know if a part of it was out of the water or not, Nagato pulled it off-panel.



You proceed to ignore the examples I listed, and also fail to understand that the manga had illustrated the setting to be near a lake.

If there was a boulder poking out of the water, the artists/animators would have depicted it. The water droplets dripping off of ALL of the boulder is indicative of the fact that ALL of the boulder was submerged. The anime even corroborates this.

You are _so _clutching at straws here lol. Your argument is an assumption you’ve made with no evidence whatsoever, whereas I’ve listed a handful of various instances which supports BT working in this manner.


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @King789 @Hellraiser @Kagutsuchi @Mar55 Watch out, we got a badass over here.


I can handle him


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 21, 2020)

Wish @WorldsBannedest was here to see his boy losing the poll


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 21, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Wish @WorldsBannedest was here to see his boy losing the poll



Tbf his boy would stomp Nagato.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Tbf his boy would stomp Nagato.


Rinnegan > EMS, but nerfed EMS is supposed to win?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 21, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Rinnegan > EMS



Sasuke using his own Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan > Nagato using Madara's Rinnegan.


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke using his own Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan > Nagato using Madara's Rinnegan.


Nagato has shown more abilities and versatility with Madara's Rinnegan than Madara has shown himself, meanwhile EMS Sasuke can't even use the weaker dojutsu to it's full potential yet

Reactions: Like 1


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## Danisor (Aug 21, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato has shown more abilities and versatility with Madara's Rinnegan than Madara has shown himself, meanwhile EMS Sasuke can't even use the weaker dojutsu to it's full potential yet


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 21, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato has shown more abilities and versatility with Madara's Rinnegan than Madara has shown himself



Fair enough, but Madara using his own eyes still > Nagato using Madara's eyes.



MaruUchiha said:


> meanwhile EMS Sasuke can't even use the weaker dojutsu to it's full potential yet



Lol wut? Of course he can.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Aug 21, 2020)

I think the real person to blame is Kishi. He portrayed EMS PS as way to powerful and then showed Nagato's Rinnegan as way to weak. Even though it's cannon then Rinnegan is >>> EMS. Another good example of bad writing mistakes by Kishi to back up this claim is having MS Itachi be the psycho villain who murders women and children then have him be the "good guy" in part 2. They both make no sense.

At the end of the day if Nagato and EMS Sasuke fight a 1000 times. Nagato will win more times then not due to having way more hax jutsu. Not to mention Sasuke's PS is NOT Madara's PS. AKA it's weaker.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 21, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I think the real person to blame is Kishi. He portrayed EMS PS as way to powerful and then showed Nagato's Rinnegan as way to weak. Even though it's cannon then Rinnegan is >>> EMS



No, Kishimoto isn't to blame *for you not understanding the manga*. As Zetsu stated, . Considering who Zetsu turned out to be, this is worth remembering.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Another good example of bad writing mistakes by Kishi to back up this claim is having MS Itachi be the psycho villain who murders women and children then have him be the "good guy" in part 2. They both make no sense



Except Itachi was apparently _always_ supposed to be a ''good guy'' in disguise, and even in P2 Kishimoto *does* point out that Itachi wasn't really ''perfect'' at all and made things _worse_ with his actions (especially in regard to Sasuke). Also, this is irrelevant to the fight.

It's worth pointing out that Itachi - *as fucked up as his actions and thought process were (and you will have no argument from me here, the Uchiha massacre was 100% wrong and so was the whole anti-Uchiha campaign before that)* - was a traumatized 14-year old who was manipulated by the Hidden Leaf's elders (namely Danzo) into supporting their genocide. Kishimoto uses Kabuto's fight to point out how both men were manipulated and made to suffer on behalf of the Leaf.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> At the end of the day if Nagato and EMS Sasuke fight a 1000 times. Nagato will win more times then not due to having way more hax jutsu



Nonsense. Nagato gets cleaved in half each and every time by a shockwave.

Make it 20,000 times and he still loses. Every. Time. Ever.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Not to mention Sasuke's PS is NOT Madara's PS. AKA it's weaker.



This is baseless, I'm afraid.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 21, 2020)

You guys need to put that PS argument to rest. Sasuke can’t use PS on his own. He had multiple opportunities to demonstrate that it was within his capabilities, yet each and every time the opportunity presented itself he opted for an inferior form of Susanoo or waited for outside help from the likes of Naruto. 

Notice how once he got the Rikudo enhancement, he never opted for any form of Susanoo other than PS.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 22, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> You proceed to ignore the examples I listed, and also fail to understand that the manga had illustrated the setting to be near a lake.
> 
> If there was a boulder poking out of the water, the artists/animators would have depicted it. The water droplets dripping off of ALL of the boulder is indicative of the fact that ALL of the boulder was submerged. The anime even corroborates this.
> 
> You are _so _clutching at straws here lol. Your argument is an assumption you’ve made with no evidence whatsoever, whereas I’ve listed a handful of various instances which supports BT working in this manner.



Kakashi was not completely covered by anything. In fact, Asura Path was on the right side of Deva, not covering him completely. There was a "window", let's put it this way, through which Deva could use Bansho Tenin on Kakashi.

Susanoo covers the user completely.

Taking aside your assumptions, as well as counting the possibility of the part of that rock being out of water which Nagato could use to pull it out, and judging by what we've seen in the canin material, Bansho Tenin would attract The Susanoo, not the user.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 22, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> Kakashi was not completely covered by anything. In fact, Asura Path was on the right side of Deva, not covering him completely. There was a "window", let's put it this way, through which Deva could use Bansho Tenin on Kakashi.
> 
> Susanoo covers the user completely.
> 
> Taking aside your assumptions, as well as counting the possibility of the part of that rock being out of water which Nagato could use to pull it out, and judging by what we've seen in the canin material, Bansho Tenin would attract The Susanoo, not the user.



If you look at the manga panel, pay attention to where Kakashi is standing. You can see that the Deva is directly behind Asura from where Kakashi’s viewpoint is. If you’re gonna be unreasonably picky (not to mention baselessly) about the boulder manga panel, I’ll be exceptionally picky about _this _manga panel.



StarWanderer said:


> judging by what we’ve seen in the canin material



*judging by what you’ve ignored in the canon material

Your entire argument hinges on something that wasn’t shown in the manga (the rock sticking out of the lake) despite countless examples suggesting that BT is a pinpoint attack.

I’ll say it again: *water droplets were dripping off of ALL of the boulder. *If the boulder was only partially submerged, the whole boulder wouldn’t be dripping. Additionally, why would the anime lie about where the boulder came from? It corroborates what happened in the manga with no contradictions whatsoever. The manga even illustrates a lake next to them, and not a little puddle where rocks could stick out. Not a boulder is seen in sight. To put it simply, you’re just being stubborn.

If Nagato can see the boulder in the water and pinpoint pull that object specifically, then he can look at the user through their Susanoo and pinpoint pull them specifically.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 22, 2020)

Halcyonite said:


> If you look at the manga panel, pay attention to where Kakashi is standing. You can see that the Deva is directly behind Asura from where Kakashi’s viewpoint is. If you’re gonna be unreasonably picky (not to mention baselessly) about the boulder manga panel, I’ll be exceptionally picky about _this _manga panel.



After Asura "opened up" his weapon-form, he was not completely covering Deva. Again - there was a window through which Deva could pull him out.

Susanoo covers it's user *completely*. And that is why Bansho Tenin is useless in here. Hell, we dont even know if it can pull Susanoo. Danzo's Baku couldnt.

Anyway, EMS Sause can counter BT with Enton/Yasaka Magatama.




Halcyonite said:


> Your entire argument hinges on something that wasn’t shown in the manga (the rock sticking out of the lake) despite countless examples suggesting that BT is a pinpoint attack.



Pinpoint attack that has no showings working on objects completely covered by something.



Halcyonite said:


> I’ll say it again: *water droplets were dripping off of ALL of the boulder.*



All of boulder though we cant see it's other side. That's pure assumption.




Halcyonite said:


> Additionally, why would the anime lie about where the boulder came from?



Why should anime matter in this discussion anyway?




Halcyonite said:


> It corroborates what happened in the manga with no contradictions whatsoever. The manga even illustrates a lake next to them, and not a little puddle where rocks could stick out. Not a boulder is seen in sight.



And?




Halcyonite said:


> If Nagato can see the boulder in the water and pinpoint pull that object specifically, then he can look at the user through their Susanoo and pinpoint pull them specifically.



Another good question is how could he see it underwater? Rinnegan cant see through smoke yet can see through water? Was it that clean? Like Baikal lake or some sh*t?

Rinnegan possessing that ability is just an assumption and nothing more at this point. Until you can provide some evidence.


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## Halcyonite (Aug 22, 2020)

StarWanderer said:


> After Asura "opened up" his weapon-form, he was not completely covering Deva. Again - there was a window through which Deva could pull him out.
> 
> Susanoo covers it's user *completely*. And that is why Bansho Tenin is useless in here. Hell, we dont even know if it can pull Susanoo. Danzo's Baku couldnt.
> 
> ...



The fact that I’ve proven time and time again that BT is pinpoint and not a vacuum, and you’re managing to compare it to _Baku _is laughable.

Use your brain, why would the other VERTICAL side of the boulder not be covered in water? If the right side of the boulder is ALL dripping with water, then the left should too, unless lakes are sideways in the Narutoverse.



StarWanderer said:


> Why should anime matter in this discussion anyway?



It’s as if you have tunnel vision when reading my replies. The anime copy-pastes the sequence of events from the manga. You wanna argue with the animators, go right ahead.



StarWanderer said:


> And?





StarWanderer said:


> Rinnegan possessing that ability is just an assumption and nothing more at this point. Until you can provide some evidence



Imagine replying “And” to the one thing that refutes your entire argument. You said that Nagato pulled a boulder sticking out of the water. A manga panel that illustrates the lake shows no such thing, no boulders in sight. Your point is refuted.

Also, imagine asking me for evidence (which I’ve provided multiple times) when you haven’t provided a single shred lmao, the evidence I’ve provided more than suffices in backing that BT can pull a Susanoo user out of the construct.


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## Zef (Aug 22, 2020)

Mike307 said:


> You left out the fact that Kabuto nearly captured Sasuke with the blinding
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> As you said Itachi instructed him to do everything & if Sasuke hadn't listened he would've been captured.


Sasuke was just standing there so its not a speed feat for Kabuto, or any indication that Sasuke is slow.



sanninme rikudo said:


> *Notice how once he got the Rikudo enhancement,* *he never opted for any form of Susanoo other than PS.*


Wrong.

*Spoiler*: __ 











*Spoiler*: __ 










Even if that were true, considering his opponents after receiving Rinnegan were *JJ Madara*, *Kaguya*, and *RSM Naruto* was he supposed to prefer lesser versions of Susano'o?


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## MYGod000 (Aug 22, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I think the real person to blame is Kishi. He portrayed EMS PS as way to powerful and then showed Nagato's Rinnegan as way to weak. Even though it's cannon then Rinnegan is >>> EMS. Another good example of bad writing mistakes by Kishi to back up this claim is having MS Itachi be the psycho villain who murders women and children then have him be the "good guy" in part 2. They both make no sense.
> 
> At the end of the day if Nagato and EMS Sasuke fight a 1000 times. Nagato will win more times then not due to having way more hax jutsu. Not to mention Sasuke's PS is NOT Madara's PS. AKA it's weaker.




Logical points...But you are beating a dead Horse...I'm pretty much the biggest Sasuke Fan and I am able to understand see past bias and call it how it is. 

Sasuke has great potential, But the Rinnegan is canonical stated to be stronger and better. 

 Obito also even stated Madara's Rinnegan has soo much chakra that he couldn't control Both at the same  time so he transplanted one.  Yet for 20+ years  Nagato has had both Madara's Rinnegan. 


Any Jutsu Sasuke uses will Get absorbed by Rinnegan's Preta Path, ST makes any attempt at blitz or Taijutsu battle virtually impossible.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2020)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You guys need to put that PS argument to rest. Sasuke can’t use PS on his own



Bullshit. just . Naruto's powers only make Sasuke's existing techniques stronger, they don't allow him to suddenly use NEW ones he couldn't do before. How the fuck is Naruto's chakra supposed to give a Susano'o legs?



sanninme rikudo said:


> Notice how once he got the Rikudo enhancement, he never opted for any form of Susanoo other than PS.



Bullshit. See what @Zef said.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 22, 2020)

Zef said:


> Sasuke was just standing there so its not a speed feat for Kabuto, or any indication that Sasuke is slow.
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> ...


Never brought it out once against Juubito unless he had help from Naruto. Clearly he can’t use it by himself at that point or he would’ve made it a habitual thing afterwards.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2020)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Never brought it out once against Juubito unless he had help from Naruto



I'm confused. How is *Naruto* supposed to awaken new powers for Sasuke? All he did is amp Sasuke up, he can't give him new Susano'o forms. Sasuke's Susano'o evolves because _Sasuke's_ eyes evolve. This was literally a plot point during the FKS arc.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Clearly he can’t use it by himself at that point



Or maybe Sasuke's eyes were evolving throughout the fight until he could finally use Perfect Susano'o...y'know, just like how Sasuke awakened V3 Susano'o when fighting Danzo and V4 Susano'o when fighting Kakashi, or like how he awakened Amaterasu against Bee?

Going by your logic, Naruto can't use BSM without Sasuke being present either...because he never used BSM before Sasuke was there.





sanninme rikudo said:


> or he would’ve made it a habitual thing afterwards.



What do you mean by ''afterwards''? Didn't you just (dishonestly) claim that Sasuke used PS all the time after getting the Rinnegan?


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bullshit. just . Naruto's powers only make Sasuke's existing techniques stronger, they don't allow him to suddenly use NEW ones he couldn't do before. How the fuck is Naruto's chakra supposed to give a Susano'o legs?
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. See what @Zef said.


Don’t compare EMS Sasuke to EMS Madara again. They’re on two radically different thresholds. 

Except Susanoo isn’t a new Tech. Like you pointed out it made the existing tech stronger hence a psuedo-PS.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2020)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Don’t compare EMS Sasuke to EMS Madara again



I can and I will. They're both EMS users, both awakened Perfect Susano'o, both armored Kurama in it, etc...

Orochimaru stated Sasuke had the potential to surpass Madara.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Except Susanoo isn’t a new Tech



Complete Body Susano'o is, however. It's an entirely new form of Susano'o. Saying Naruto's chakra allows Sasuke to somehow use Complete Body Susano'o when he couldn't before is like saying Kakashi could use the Rasenshuriken with Naruto's chakra.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Like you pointed out it made the existing tech stronger



Making a technique stronger =/ actually accessing a new and superior version of the technique.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I can and I will. They're both EMS users, both awakened Perfect Susano'o, both armored Kurama in it, etc...
> 
> Orochimaru stated Sasuke had the potential to surpass Madara.
> 
> ...


Lol wtf did you tag me?


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 22, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Lol wtf did you tag me?


It was an accident. 
He mean't to tag @sanninme rikudo


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Lol wtf did you tag me?



My mistake.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> My mistake.


Np. I appreciate the correction.


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## Zef (Aug 22, 2020)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Never brought it out once against Juubito unless he had help from Naruto. Clearly he can’t use it by himself at that point or he would’ve made it a habitual thing afterwards.


Are we still talking about the lesser forms or PS here?


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