# The Witch King vs Geralt of Rivia



## Ramius (Jul 23, 2014)

Just when Geralt thought there was no worse nightmare than the Wild Hunt in his world, a certain Allmighty Servant of Morgoth, whose name we shall not pronounce, got interested in the so-called White Wolf, for he is one of the fiercest enemies of the evil and by extension enemy of his Master. He sees it suitable to send one of his strongest servants to test the famous Geralt of Rivia and preferably kill him.

Fate has chosen the awaited battle to happen in the Flotsam forest and what's not surprising, during the night, just when Geralt was merely camping after another day of killing monsters.



*Conditions:*
The Witch King gets his mount
Geralt is allowed to use all his signs
This is Geralt's game version
He's aware of what's about to happen, so he has 2 minutes prep
He's given both the G'valchir and the Moonblade, whichever he'll find fit.
He's aware that normal means won't kill The Witch King


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## Atem (Jul 23, 2014)

Geralt could kill the King of the Wild Hunt who was basically a wraith. Plus, there's specter oil for esoteric ghost stuff and other oils for the undead that he could coat his swords in.

Don't think Axii will help all that much here but ring wraiths are weak to fire, right? I forget if that's just the film or not. There's the Igni sign for that if that is the case.

In terms of physical ability how powerful is the Witch King? Geralt is fire-proof, can shrug off getting thrown through brick walls, and getting hit by magic like with Dethmold and possibly Savola. That's durability for Geralt and in terms of strength and cutting power with his swords he can kill trolls who have stone/rock-like skin. Not to mention gargoyles who are outright made out of stone.

Yrden can temporarily paralyze the kayran, Quen electrocutes anyone who attacks him and shields him, and Heliotrop slows down time within a twenty or so meter radius IIRC.


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## Ramius (Jul 23, 2014)

IIRC The Witch King is no slouch either. Didn't he shatter Frodo's sword into pieces with a wave of his hand? I think he also shattered Gandalf's staff, but that was inconsistency-movies only (or so I remember). More than anything, he has no problems using a cub rather handily and him being one of the Kings who originally got one of the Nine rings should tell us something. And the fact that he's IIRC Sauron's strongest Servant or something along the lines. 

He's got pretty poor speed compared to Geralt though, peak human may be(even Frodo could dodge some of his attacks, though he got stabbed in the end and Frodo's like far away from being peak human). 

We'll probably need someone more knowledgeable on Tolkien here, I'm just working based off memory from 5 or so years ago.


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## Atem (Jul 23, 2014)

Just for various references on potions and oils. 









Anyway, besides the gameplay stuff the description on various potions and oils are the following.

Spector Oil



> There is a mysterious boundary between the worlds of the dead and the living, one which is easier to cross for restless specters than for humans. To injure a spectral opponent, first anoint a blade with this oil. Only then will the weapon truly part the curtain dividing the worlds, thereby damaging the specter.



Brown Oil



> Curse your enemy bearing the name of Coram Agh Tera, the Lionhead Spider, and dip your blade in oil. An enemy wounded with the dagger will bleed to death even from a slight wound.



Blizzard also boosts a witcher's speed to that point time appears to slow down to a crawl.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 23, 2014)

Ramius said:


> IIRC The Witch King is no slouch either. Didn't he shatter Frodo's sword into pieces with a wave of his hand? I think he also shattered Gandalf's staff, but that was inconsistency-movies only (or so I remember). More than anything, he has no problems using a cub rather handily and him being one of the Kings who originally got one of the Nine rings should tell us something. And the fact that he's IIRC Sauron's strongest Servant or something along the lines.
> 
> He's got pretty poor speed compared to Geralt though, peak human may be(even Frodo could dodge some of his attacks, though he got stabbed in the end and Frodo's like far away from being peak human).
> 
> We'll probably need someone more knowledgeable on Tolkien here, I'm just working based off memory from 5 or so years ago.



The Witch King is at least superhuman, but yeah breaking Gandalf's staff was pretty much movie bullshit (as much as I love the movies)


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## The Bloody Nine (Jul 25, 2014)

Witchers can see/react to arrows in flight and Geralt is fast for a Witcher. Geralt should almost certainly be able to cut him, what with the silver swords, elixirs and the fact that he barely even qualifies as a "man" anymore. 

If anything while creative i think this matchup is a stomp in Geralts favour.


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## Atem (Jul 25, 2014)

Hasn't Watchdog been here lately? 

I would like for him to give his take on the Witch King here. If I remember right he is quite familiar with Tolkien in general.


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## Reddan (Jul 25, 2014)

I don't know much about the other guy, but I do know a lot about the Witch King.


The Witch King originally would have been a Numenorean noble. Possibly a descendant of Elros, but I think probably not. So being a Numenorean he would be superhuman. Would be at least 6'6 and slightly telepathic. 

After becoming the Witch King he is practically immortal from most weapons, which are specifically designed to kill wraiths. Even before gaining the ring he was a powerful sorcerer and he showed this when he broke Frodo's sword. A sword that was specifically designed to kill him.

He also has other tricks like making his sword set on fire and necromancy.  He is very capable of summoning evil spirits to fight for him or placing them in corpses. 

His greatest quality is the mad fear he produces. Even the strongest and bravest of men will go completely crazy in his presence. These are not just soldiers, but battle hardened veterans of Numenorean blood that have fought trolls etc. 

He also posses special weapons that if he stabs you anywhere, will within hours poison you and turn you into a wraith under his command.

At the siege of Minas Tirith he was greatly enhanced and even more powerful than normal.


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## Ramius (Jul 25, 2014)

Well, may be indeed I over-estimated The Witch King. I dno, may be the entire Nazgul vs Geralt? Seems a bit fairer. Albeit we might as well guestimate how strong a Numenorean should be, because while superhuman, Geralt isn't that much above it. Aragorn IIRC also blocked a flying knife or an arrow once.


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## Atem (Jul 25, 2014)

Reddan said:


> The Witch King originally would have been a Numenorean noble. Possibly a descendant of Elros, but I think probably not. So being a Numenorean he would be superhuman. Would be at least 6'6 and *slightly telepathic*.



Yeah, I figured the Witch King would have something like that that's why I figured that axii wouldn't work since the most it can control is like three people at once only. 

That wouldn't do much here would it?



> After becoming the Witch King he is practically immortal from most weapons, which are specifically designed to kill wraiths. Even before gaining the ring he was a powerful sorcerer and he showed this when he broke Frodo's sword. A sword that was specifically designed to kill him.



How tough was Frodo's sword though? Geralt has been hit by powerful magic before as well, and the most it has done is disorient him even when it's powerful magic from the likes of Dethmold's that can blow Vergen's gates apart easily. 



> He also has other tricks like making his sword set on fire and necromancy.  He is very capable of summoning evil spirits to fight for him or placing them in corpses.



How powerful are these zombies? As for the spirits Geralt has specter oil as already noted and it's also effective against Draugir. 





			
				Witcher II Journal Entry said:
			
		

> The draug is a commander, and his wraith soldiers are called draughirs. The draugh's will calls them into existence on battlefields or in cemeteries. Like the draug, they are borne of damned souls and trapped shells created from the remnants of arms and armor, machines and corpses torn apart by scavengers.



Which are basically reanimated skeletons, possessed armor, walking corpses, and that sort of thing. 



> His greatest quality is the mad fear he produces. Even the strongest and bravest of men will go completely crazy in his presence. These are not just soldiers, but battle hardened veterans of Numenorean blood that have fought trolls etc.



Geralt has a very strong mind going by the fact he has no problem turning multiple enemies into pawns with axii. The most impressive feat of mental strength is probably when he fought the Grandmaster of the Flaming Rose.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZKUZLQUSh8[/YOUTUBE]

2:36~5:10, Geralt is dragged into the Grandmaster's vision/mind

5:28~5:58, a "vision" of Triss explains that Geralt has been brought into the Grandmaster's mind and what's there is capable of actually hurting and killing someone

12:40~13:44, after fighting his way to the Grandmaster Geralt fights him until the King of the Wild Hunt appears and fodderizes the Grandmaster

Geralt refuses to allow the King to have the Grandmaster and proceeds to kill him

13:44~14:39, Geralt kills the Grandmaster and dispels the vision 



> He also posses special weapons that if he stabs you anywhere, will within hours poison you and turn you into a wraith under his command.





As a witcher, Geralt's body been altered throughout the course of his childhood through the use of alchemy and various mutagens. This gives him various abilities and enhancements such as a very powerful resistance to poisons and disease. That allows the white wolf to use his potions in the first place because otherwise the sheer toxicity of the potions the witchers use would just kill him outright instead. As well as increased muscle and bone density, superhuman reflexes and senses, the ability to see in the dark, and a greater lifespan. 

If I remember correctly that includes up to the likes of lycanthropy. 



> At the siege of Minas Tirith he was greatly enhanced and even more powerful than normal.



By what extent exactly?


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## Reddan (Jul 25, 2014)

Gwyn said:


> Yeah, I figured the Witch King would have something like that that's why I figured that axii wouldn't work since the most it can control is like three people at once only.
> 
> That wouldn't do much here would it?


I don't see telepathy playing a part in this, but the Black Breath and his fear aura might.


> How tough was Frodo's sword though? Geralt has been hit by powerful magic before as well, and the most it has done is disorient him even when it's powerful magic from the likes of Dethmold's that can blow Vergen's gates apart easily.


Frodo's dagger/sword was pretty tough. It was over 1500 years old and made with special spells to personally kill the WItch King. It's one of the few weapons that would have killed him, but he still managed to break them.


> How powerful are these zombies? As for the spirits Geralt has specter oil as already noted and it's also effective against Draugir.


Hard to say, because the only ones we see in the story are the Barrow Wights that capture Frodo and the Hobbits. They do seem quite powerful, but they were destroyed by sunlight. He can make other zombies too.

They are able to use spells that paralyse the Hobbits.

EDIT

I did not realise there was more addressed to me.

He was enhanced by Sauron.

The power of the Morgul blade is not just physical. A shard f the knife breaks off and makes it way to your heart. Rather than poison it turns you into a wraith or weaker version of the Nazgul.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 25, 2014)

> Albeit we might as well guestimate how strong a Numenorean should be



They use bows with metal bowstrings(steel IIRC) to shoot arrows approx 10kms, the type of strength for that even ignoring the metal bowstring is impressive. Think Wombat has a calc somewhere as well.


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## Reddan (Jul 25, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> They use bows with metal bowstrings(steel IIRC) to shoot arrows approx 10kms, the type of strength for that even ignoring the metal bowstring is impressive. Think Wombat has a calc somewhere as well.



It's very hard to gauge how strong Numenoreans are. They are obviously very big men, especially the early ones and the royal family. Think abut how strong a normal man would be if he was 7ft plus. Elendil is a well proportioned 8ft giant. However, ignoring their size they are still much stronger than normal humans. The best I can say is that they would be significantly stronger than the world's strongest man. Comparable to the likes of Batman and Captain America.


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## Atem (Jul 25, 2014)

Reddan said:


> I don't see telepathy playing a part in this, but the Black Breath and his fear aura might.



Did you manage to look over the stuff I posted with the Grandmaster and the King of the Wild Hunt?

Going by that Geralt's mental defenses are strong enough to overwhelm a  mind. That's what the Grandmaster was. What we know is his illusions are powerful enough to kill, and expansive enough to recreate entire visions of the future. 

Geralt could beat Jacques and the King of the Wild Hunt who could easily render the Grandmaster defenseless in his own mind where he controlled everything. 



> Frodo's dagger/sword was pretty tough. It was over 1500 years old and made with special spells to personally kill the WItch King. It's one of the few weapons that would have killed him, but he still managed to break them.



Well, that doesn't say much if we don't know how powerful this spells are or how tough this dagger actually was outside of this. What showings does the dagger have besides getting destroyed? 

Anyway, I mentioned Dethmold here he destroys Vergen's front gate.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YYlf_qGBl0[/YOUTUBE]

21:47, Dethmold destroys it

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ydZOu2Tk8[/YOUTUBE]

25:24, Geralt could survive getting hit by Dethmold's magic



> Hard to say, because the only ones we see in the story are the Barrow Wights that capture Frodo and the Hobbits. They do seem quite powerful, but they were destroyed by sunlight. He can make other zombies too.



I see and what could these zombies do?



> They are able to use spells that paralyse the Hobbits.



That could be a problem depending on how potent this paralyses is and how it works. Now is this just for the Barrow Wights or...?



> I did not realize there was more addressed to me.
> 
> He was enhanced by Sauron.
> 
> The power of the Morgul blade is not just physical. A shard f the knife breaks off and makes it way to your heart. Rather than poison it turns you into a wraith or weaker version of the Nazgul.



Neither are many of the potions a witcher ingests, some including Petri's Philter can enhance something as esoteric as magical power/potency. There are some potions that can cure stuff like lycanthropy which is a curse rather than a disease.

There was even a time that Geralt was a member of the Wild Hunt but somehow he escaped them and he did not share their wraith-like nature possibly because of the changes already done to him as a witcher. We don't have a clear answer on that yet though. Perhaps there will be one in the Witcher 3.

Don't think I've brought up bombs yet. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ_KtvVvolY[/YOUTUBE]

1:28~2:00

Once such alchemic explosive available to witchers like Letho and Geralt. It can freeze a whole ship full of people solid. There's also the bomb he used against the kayran which was just your standard explosive. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psmm_-SZjdg[/YOUTUBE]

3:28


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 25, 2014)

Ramius said:


> IIRC The Witch King is no slouch either. Didn't he shatter Frodo's sword into pieces with a wave of his hand? I think he also shattered* Gandalf's staff, but that was inconsistency-movies only (or so I remember).* More than anything, he has no problems using a cub rather handily and him being one of the Kings who originally got one of the Nine rings should tell us something. And the fact that he's IIRC Sauron's strongest Servant or something along the lines.
> o.



Gandalf would have fucking killed him in the novels. No, what happened was Agmar shows up and Gandalf tells him to fuck right off and die with Sauron. Agmar shouts "OLD MAN!! OLD MAN!! DO YOU NOT KNOW DEATH WHEN YOU SEE IT? THIS IS MY HOUR!!" to which Gandalf was probably going to explode him but he got called away because Rohan showed up and put the screws to his army.

Agmar silenced his army and the army of Gondor when he showed up. He enchanted the battering hammer grond with his sorcery when it was noted that the gates of Minas Tirith and her walls likely couldn't be breached sans a massive earth quake and they shattered right through.

Then you have his fear aura which was killing horses and driving men to madness and the like

edit- stabbing him can result in a fucked up sword, and you being poisoned...

not commenting on the fight since I've know idea how powerful Geralt is just..providing some insight.


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## Reddan (Jul 25, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Gandalf would have fucking killed him in the novels. No, what happened was Agmar shows up and Gandalf tells him to fuck right off and die with Sauron. Agmar shouts "OLD MAN!! OLD MAN!! DO YOU NOT KNOW DEATH WHEN YOU SEE IT? THIS IS MY HOUR!!" to which Gandalf was probably going to explode him but he got called away because Rohan showed up and put the screws to his army.
> 
> Agmar silenced his army and the army of Gondor when he showed up. He enchanted the battering hammer grond with his sorcery when it was noted that the gates of Minas Tirith and her walls likely couldn't be breached sans a massive earth quake and they shattered right through.
> 
> ...



Gandalf almost  certainly would have won, but even he did not think it was going to be easy. He actually mentions to Denethor it would be a tough fight. The Witch King at this point of time was greatly enhanced by Sauron and much more powerful than his usual level, which was already great.


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## Reddan (Jul 25, 2014)

Gwyn said:


> Did you manage to look over the stuff I posted with the Grandmaster and the King of the Wild Hunt?
> 
> Going by that Geralt's mental defenses are strong enough to overwhelm a  mind. That's what the Grandmaster was. What we know is his illusions are powerful enough to kill, and expansive enough to recreate entire visions of the future.
> 
> ...


These are impressive, but the Witch King survived things such as being crushed by boulders and a river by Elrond. Another, weaker Nazgul survived a fall from at least 500ft, but probably more. 

He might be able to survive being turned into a wraith.

Destroying the gate was impressive, but the Witch King has a similar feat, but required a battering ram. He helped destroy the Gates of MInas Tirith, which was incorporated Mithril and had never been breached. It's a tough fight either way, but I think Geralt would drive the Witch King back to Mordor.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 25, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Gandalf almost  certainly would have won, but even he did not think it was going to be easy. He actually mentions to Denethor it would be a tough fight. The Witch King at this point of time was greatly enhanced by Sauron and much more powerful than his usual level, which was already great.



I'm aware that he was greatly enhanced by Sauron but its hard to believe Sauron could so casually empower somone to be beyond a Balrog at that point without greatly diminishing himself.

More than likely Gandalf was just patronizing Denethor who Gandalf recognized had gone completely beyond the borders of sanity by that point.


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## Reddan (Jul 26, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'm aware that he was greatly enhanced by Sauron but its hard to believe Sauron could so casually empower somone to be beyond a Balrog at that point without greatly diminishing himself.
> 
> More than likely Gandalf was just patronizing Denethor who Gandalf recognized had gone completely beyond the borders of sanity by that point.



Sauron does not have to enhance him beyond a Balrog for it to be a tough fight. 

Gandalf may be quick to anger and have a sharp tongue, but he is not the kind of man to patronise others and especially Denethor. Have you read the books or are you going off the film? Gandalf tried his best to save Denethor right up to the last possible moment and mourned his death. Nor was Denethor insane until he finally broke. He was a great leader planning for every eventuality and leading the forces of Gondor brilliantly: only his sons imminent death, the sight that Sauron was sure to win the war by force, being deceived that the black ships had come as enemies and at last believing that Frodo had lost the ring led t his break down.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Sauron does not have to enhance him beyond a Balrog for it to be a tough fight.
> 
> Gandalf may be quick to anger and have a sharp tongue, but he is not the kind of man to patronise others and especially Denethor. Have you read the books or are you going off the film? Gandalf tried his best to save Denethor right up to the last possible moment and mourned his death. Nor was Denethor insane until he finally broke. He was a great leader planning for every eventuality and leading the forces of Gondor brilliantly: only his sons imminent death, the sight that Sauron was sure to win the war by force, being deceived that the black ships had come as enemies and at last believing that Frodo had lost the ring led t his break down.



of course I've read the books, why else do you think I've refuted all your nonsense and gotten yelled at for trolling here? Or how I know your claim that Konohamaru can beat fingolfin is a load of horse shit?

Denethor had been slowly eroded by Sauron, he was on the hinges of madness and made a claim  that Gandalf..had no real need to refute. There's no way in hell Agmar could do much more than last longer..than he would have prior and that's it.


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## Atem (Jul 26, 2014)

Just going to also note that Geralt has fought and killed elementals as well. They are not as powerful as genies who can flatten mountains and create earthquakes but they're a subsidiary of them. A sort of lesser version.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z35YxGp2z7A[/YOUTUBE]

12:08~13:18, Geralt fights a fire elemental that was summoned as a trap by Phillippa  Eilhart

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMo5t5PROk8[/YOUTUBE]

As well as a golem which is a type of earth elemental.

More information on them both. 





			
				Witcher II Journal Entry said:
			
		

> The earth elemental is the younger brother of the legendary d'ao, the genie capable of creating earthquakes and flattening mountains. Younger, and less powerful, but also more mischievous. Felling trees, crushing walls and smashing people to pulp can be counted among this creature's pranks. But only if their master allows it, of course.







			
				Witcher II Journal Entry said:
			
		

> Sorcerers proficient in the Art can create gateways to dimensions ruled by the four elements and force the creatures dwelling there to serve them. Herbert Stammelford, one of the members of the first Conclave, had a d'ao, a genie of Earth, at his beck and call. At the mage's command it moved a mountain that blocked the view from a window. Contemporary sorcerers are but a pale shadow of the old masters, but they still can do a lot. The most proficient among them can summon fire elementals, perfectly obedient guardians and defenders.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2014)

As said, I know too little about the other side to say "he can't win!" or "he can"..I need to play this game very badly. But yeah simply seeing Gonads post in this thread..and wanted to give non poisoned Tolkienverse stuff.


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## Reddan (Jul 26, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> of course I've read the books, why else do you think I've refuted all your nonsense and gotten yelled at for trolling here? Or how I know your claim that Konohamaru can beat fingolfin is a load of horse shit?
> 
> Denethor had been slowly eroded by Sauron, he was on the hinges of madness and made a claim  that Gandalf..had no real need to refute. There's no way in hell Agmar could do much more than last longer..than he would have prior and that's it.



Denethor was not slowly eroded in the sense that he had a slow deterioration. He kept strong until his final collapse and even then gave Gandalf very useful information. 

Lasting longer than he did prior would actually make it a tough fight. 

If you had read the book you would note that this confrontaton has been built up for a while.

*'Shadowfax bore him (Gandalf), shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet ready to challenge the white fire of his foe.'*

'*Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur, the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls' said Gandalf. King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'

'Then Mithrandir yu have a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself I have long known who is the chief captain of the hose of the dark tower. Is that all you have returned to say? Or can it be that yiu have withdrawn because you are overmatched?

Pipin trembled fearing that Gandalf wuld be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so' Gandalf answered softly 'But our trial of strength has not yet come.'*

EDIT

Also yes it's quite clear that a genin like Rock Lee outclasses Fingolfin physically.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Denethor was not slowly eroded in the sense that he had a slow deterioration. He kept strong until his final collapse and even then gave Gandalf very useful information.
> 
> Lasting longer than he did prior would actually make it a tough fight.
> 
> ...



You know what's awesome? None of that disproves that the Witch King himself was full of shit and Denethor had no idea what the  fuck he was talking about. 

Which was all I was saying...numbnuts. That Gandalf was going to stomp him one way or another


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## Reddan (Jul 26, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You know what's awesome? None of that disproves that the Witch King himself was full of shit and Denethor had no idea what the  fuck he was talking about.
> 
> Which was all I was saying...numbnuts. That Gandalf was going to stomp him one way or another



Once again you are making baseless claims. Nothing in the text at all implies it is going to be a stomp. The Witch King himself has fought Gandalf before and seems to think (not knowing about Gandalf's enhancement) that he can now win. Gandalf himself says he is not certain of victory, but you keep claiming it's going to be a stomp. What is this based on? Give me one quote suggesting that it is going to be a stomp rather than your very erroneous opinion.


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## Red Angel (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah, that has as much merit as Cell claiming he can bust solar systems

It's virtually meaningless


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## Atem (Jul 26, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> As said, I know too little about the other side to say "he can't win!" or "he can"..I need to play this game very badly. But yeah simply seeing Gonads post in this thread..and wanted to give non poisoned Tolkienverse stuff.



So, from what I posted so far in the thread how would you think Geralt would fair in a fight with the Witch King? 

I think the only things I haven't mentioned are aard and some other people already noted that Geralt was an arrow-timer in terms of speed. The aard sign is basically is a telekinetic blast and it's powerful enough to pulverize rubble and concrete.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLt4tIi7QgA[/YOUTUBE]

6:14~6:17


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Once again you are making baseless claims. Nothing in the text at all implies it is going to be a stomp. The Witch King himself has fought Gandalf before and seems to think (not knowing about Gandalf's enhancement) that he can now win. Gandalf himself says he is not certain of victory, but you keep claiming it's going to be a stomp. What is this based on? Give me one quote suggesting that it is going to be a stomp rather than your very erroneous opinion.



So basically statements matter more than feats...right...

bullshit 



Skarbrand said:


> Yeah, that has as much merit as Cell claiming he can bust solar systems
> 
> It's virtually meaningless



Statements from unstable and arrogant villains being taken over feats 



Gwyn said:


> So, from what I posted so far in the thread how would you think Geralt would fair in a fight with the Witch King?
> 
> I think the only things I haven't mentioned are aard and some other people already noted that Geralt was an arrow-timer in terms of speed. The aard sign is basically is a telekinetic blast and it's powerful enough to pulverize rubble and concrete.
> 
> ...



It seems like he can damage and injure him..but it's generally dangerous to wound a wraith. Both people who took out WK ended up poisoned and on deaths door because of it.

I'll give you a better summary of what I think tomorrow when I have time to watch the vids again.


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## Reddan (Jul 26, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Yeah, that has as much merit as Cell claiming he can bust solar systems
> 
> It's virtually meaningless



The author through out the siege builds up this conflict. We have two characters that have clashed before actually both commenting that Gandalf would not stomp.

*"It is based on the misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114."*-Letter 210

The Witch King at Pelennor was not the same creature he had been prior. Some people are also confused and think that Sauron is much weaker without the ring. He is not. Until someone claims the ring Sauron could still draw from it's power.

With Sauron sitting safely in Barad-dur we have no way of knowing just how much power he was pouring into the Witch King. Completely safe at that moment it could have been a substantial amount. In fact the story only makes sense if this is the case.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 26, 2014)

...I'm still confused at how you think Sauron would easily and willingly invest enough power into Agmar that he could challenge someone who in a weaker form took out a Balrog.

It would be an utter waste..of energy. And Sauron was not an idiot


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## Reddan (Jul 27, 2014)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...I'm still confused at how you think Sauron would easily and willingly invest enough power into Agmar that he could challenge someone who in a weaker form took out a Balrog.
> 
> It would be an utter waste..of energy. And Sauron was not an idiot



Nobody said it would be easy, but it's actually smart. Someone had to take out Gandalf. Not to mention that other powerful elves might have been there such as the Sons of Elrond. He was also pretty sure that Aragorn was about to claim the ring. There was very good reason for him to power up the Witch King to combat the heavy weights that were there,


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## Red Angel (Jul 27, 2014)

Or he's smart enough to not extend enough power to leave him weakened, idk


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## Reddan (Jul 27, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Or he's smart enough to not extend enough power to leave him weakened, idk



With literally thousands upon  thousands of troops, and the strongest fortress in Middle Earth why would he care? Nobody is getting to Sauron by the time of the War of the Ring. His only danger is someone taking the ring or destroying it (but he does not consider that option). That apart Sauron could be as weak as a baby and nobody still has any chance of getting to him.

Considering Sauron was wearing the Witch Kings ring they have a direct connection.


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## Red Angel (Jul 27, 2014)

Thousands (technically millions but I digress) of fodders who are only relevant because fiction against characters who are at a level where they can uproot fortresses that make Hogwarts a 2 story condo by comparison and cause storms that can be seen from many miles away, yet Sauron would be in no danger if he granted a drastic amount of his energy to his servant and left powerless against guize like Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond

The only grounds we have for WK being on par with Gandalf is something on par with the "YYH characters can planet bust" or "Cell can destroy solar systems" bs followed by conjecture and stonewalling

Ladies and gentlemen, round of applause for the self proclaimed Tolkien genius in the house


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## Louis Cyphre (Jul 27, 2014)

> Villain boasting about his power
> Over feats

Go home, and stop smoking hobbit-weed.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jul 27, 2014)

Gwyn said:


> Just going to also note that Geralt has fought and killed elementals as well. They are not as powerful as genies who can flatten mountains and create earthquakes but they're a subsidiary of them. A sort of lesser version.



Well shit

Need to finish 1 and get on 2 soon, still stuck on Dark Souls though


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## Reddan (Jul 27, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> Thousands (technically millions but I digress) of fodders who are only relevant because fiction against characters who are at a level where they can uproot fortresses that make Hogwarts a 2 story condo by comparison and cause storms that can be seen from many miles away, yet Sauron would be in no danger if he granted a drastic amount of his energy to his servant and left powerless against guize like Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond
> 
> The only grounds we have for WK being on par with Gandalf is something on par with the "YYH characters can planet bust" or "Cell can destroy solar systems" bs followed by conjecture and stonewalling
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, round of applause for the self proclaimed Tolkien genius in the house



That's the case for poorly put together stories. GRR Martin himself comments on this and praises Tolkien for not falling into this trap. We are precisely told at the start hat Glorfindel (probably the most powerful good guy at that point) cannot storm the Black Gate. 

I really wonder if a lot of people here have actually read the books? 

This is Elrond telling us what a host of First Age elvish warriors would do.

*'Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little save to arouse the power of Mordor.'*

Here is Gandalf telling us what Glorfindel.

'*Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel,he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power in him.'*

Even at the Field of Cormallen where they have 'names worth a thousand knights'. They are still going to eventually lose.

Hurin the mightiest man of all time was eventually taken down by numbers. 

Sauron's armies are just too great.

EDIT
It is not just a villain boasting about his powers, but the incredibly wise and powerful Gandalf making a statement in agreement. Gandalf is nearly always spot on and if he thinks the WItch-King at that point would be a tough opponent then he is not likely to be wrong.


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## Red Angel (Jul 27, 2014)

We don't care sonny boy, we apply the same logic across fiction or we don't apply it at all

Don't like it? Don't care

Everything else is basically the same as the whole "Superman admitting he can't go lightspeed so his FTL feats don't count" bullshit

Low ends aren't valid arguments

And we have read LOTR, we're just not insane downplayers who believe ourselves above house standards here

Get the fuck out, Aredncek


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## Reddan (Jul 27, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> We don't care sonny boy, we apply the same logic across fiction or we don't apply it at all
> 
> Don't like it? Don't care
> 
> ...



No this is not a low end showing, and Tolkien's characters have consistent showings. If you had read the books you would know that Gandalf the White was very confident. He had no problem proclaiming his power and his authority. 

We also know that WItch-King was not as his normal power level, but much, much greater than usual. He has a lot of impressive feats such as the destruction of the Minas Tirith Gates and both Gandalf/Denethor think he is a match.


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## Red Angel (Jul 27, 2014)

Every fiction has "consistent showings" you goddamn fool. Every fiction also has it's varying range of showings, some just vary more than others

Nobody denied he was power boosted, only the notion that Sauron was spend a colossal amount of energy in raising his servant's power to that of one of Melkor's lieutenants would be a stupid move (like Sauron would leave himself really weakened)

But yeah, feats/powerscaling>statements


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## Atem (Jul 27, 2014)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Well shit
> 
> Need to finish 1 and get on 2 soon, still stuck on Dark Souls though



Genies themselves mostly appear in the novels and short stories (such as the ), and besides the occasional notes and references about them in the games we just see elementals. A fire elemental can create something akin to a pocket dimension in the quest Spellbreaker (that I already posted a video of a while back) which is dispelled after Geralt kills it but genies are on another level. 

Powerful sorcerers and mages of note have methods of containing genies and using them as servants... make of that what you will. Yennefer herself is capable of capturing the Djinn which was the air genie in the Last Wish.


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