# OPBD Formal Debate Series #3: Is Zoro closer to Sanji or Luffy?



## StrawHat4Life (Mar 4, 2014)

*Closer to Luffy*
Slenderman
The Pirate Hunter
Unclear Justice


*Closer to Sanji*
Dr. White
BartholomewKuma
♦Young Master♦


*Judges* 
TheTeaIsGood2
Sabo
monkey d ace
Stαrkiller
Vengeance


*How this will work:* 


*Opening Argument:* One member from each team will post an opening argument for their side. Please provide relevant scans and links for all evidence cited.


*Main Rebuttal:* One member from each team will post a unified rebuttal to the opposing side's opening argument.


*Rapid Fire Round:* Members from each team may address each other in direct debate. Judges may ask questions or ask for clarifications, but nothing else. 


*Summation:* One member from each team will post a closing argument. Every member of the team must have input.  


*Voting:* Judges will post their verdict. They must explain their reasoning and cite specific arguments made by each team. Remember, you are voting on which team made the most convincing argument. Your personal opinion on the topic should be irrelevant.

*Only debaters and judges may post in this thread. Flaming will not be tolerated and will result in an automatic DQ for the offender.

Good luck and have fun!* ​
​


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 4, 2014)

*Teams have 72 hours to post their opening arguments. *


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## Dr. White (Mar 5, 2014)

*Opening Argument: Zoro is closer to Sanji than Luffy.*
*Main Points:*
1. Luffy has shown that he is the strongest of the group. 
_ i._ Luffy has always taken out the big bad in the group, Luffy always has the most monsterous feats, and is the most notorious. Constantly Luffy has beaten down people thought to be tiers ahead of him (Croc, Lucci, Enel) all of which would have wishwashed Zoro and Sanji. 
_ii._ Zoro and Sanji both get great feats on a similar level and are usually portrayed side by side in rivalry during combat. It's a relationship to . This is apparent many times in the series: during fishman island when, During EL where they to get to the other side, In TB when they are fighting OZ and in Luffy's absence, , etc. It is clear these two share a rivalry much deeper than just comedic relief.

2. Sanji has shown that he can increase decrease the gap that partially existed in the pre- skip. 
_i._ Preface by saying that I think the Doriki thing Oda did with CP9 was pretty telling. Kaku after being out 4 years was a bit stronger than Jyabura(once again look at their relationship to see the mirror images)but not by much at all. While Lucci was almost twice above them. That really showcased how the Monster 3 was set up. Zoro beat an opponent with 20 more doriki than Sanji's opponent. But the difficulty at which they won varied. Sanji won with an easier time than zoro did which slighlty mitigates the fact that zoro beat a stronger opponent( because the power difference in each opponent was so small). Which means if we simply equate Doriki(D) with Power Level(P) (for sake of comparison) then Zoro would be higher than Kaku but not so much that he is signifigantly further than Sanji (who beat a slightly less stronger opponent than zoro with injuries). While Luffy who slighlty edges out Lucci is comfortably ahead but definitely not double Sanji or Zoro.

_ ii_. Feats this timeskip are pretty even between Sanji and Zoro but Luffy is still winning. Best Feats include:
-Luffy - Beating Drugged Hodi, Hitting the Kraken with force underwater, 1 shot pacifista and monster chopper, Grizzly Magnum, Tearing up the Noah, and defeating Don Chinjao.
-Zoro has beaten Hyuzen, Beat Base Hodi, Scared a Logia enough to strike her, slashed a decent sized cliff while mid sleep, Parried with Fuji, and escaped his gravity hole, cutting off Dragon's head, 360 Pound canon. 
-Sanji - Strong enough to Kick/Scorch Wadatsumi (Hells Memories), Blitzed Vergo with a Geppou, and fought him with DJ's;Best showing of COO, Blue Walk, Blitzing a Sniper, Intercepted Doflamingo and earned praise from him, Confident enough to fire on BM Ship. 

Luffy slightly edges out the other two (especially since he is about to fight Dofla) but not by much. Sanji's list is pretty muchup there with zoro's, New moves(/Geppou and Never ending /360 Canon), Clashing vs Strong people (/, and )Large scale moves (Kicking Wadatsumi and cutting the cliff), etc. But Luffy's are just a bit bigger and more emphasized (, , beating a Legend, etc)

So while the gap between all 3 got smaller I still believe that Zoro is closer to sanji then Luffy.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 7, 2014)

*Opening Argument ? Zoro is closer to Luffy*​
Our team holds the belief that Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji. We will now explain our views in detail.

We start by showcasing that Zoro being closer to Luffy, has rather been the rule than the exception in the past. 

We will address a few thing to do so.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Strength comparison*​
At the start of the Monster Trio's relationship, Oda clearly established where the characters stand in terms of strength, and over the course of the manga, it becomes evident that Zoro is generally closer to Luffy.

During Arlong Park, the gap in strength between the M3 was introduced. As proud and arrogant as Arlong was, he admits Zoro was a threat(,).  This clearly implies Zoro was capable of taking out Arlong, while Sanji admits Arlong is on another level(,).

Whiskey Peak also displays the strength relationship between Luffy and Zoro that Oda set up early on. In a chapter titled "", Oda dedicated the *entire chapter* to showing the readers how close these two were in battle.

During this period, there were databooks released directly stating Luffy and Zoro were higher than Sanji in strength.
*Stats From One Piece Databook Red*

*Spoiler*: __ 





> (Rough Translation)From top going clockwise
> 
> 冒険心 - spirit of adventure
> 力 - strength
> ...



*Luffy*


*Zoro*


*Sanji*




Manga evidence clearly depicts Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength than Zoro and Sanji, at the start of the relationship between the M3. Sanji hasn't experienced anything that justifies a bigger jump than Luffy or Zoro; so that means up until Enies Lobby, the M3 gradually increased, maintaining the same gap since their introduction.

Though all members of the M3 received a power-up during EL, we acknowledge Luffy received the biggest growth. It isn't until the next arc, that Oda starts to steer the relationship of the M3 back to its roots.

 During Thriller Bark, Zoro received another power-up when he gained Shuusui(,). On top of that power-up, he also received portrayal that places him closer to Luffy when this chapter happened

""​
The significance of this chapter is overlooked by the feat. This is the only arc Luffy stacked Gears and . Luffy stacking Gears wasn't a coincidence, it was build up for Zoro's chapter. This chapter goes against everything Luffy created the Gears for. In his position as captain he wanted to keep his crew away from harm with those enhanced techniques. But Kuma changed that. Zoro took all of Luffy?s pain and exhaustion while the captain himself felt perfectly fine afterwards. Sanji even went as far as hiding this from Luffy because of the emotional toll it'll take on his captain(,).





*Spoiler*: __ 




*Resolve & Willpower*​
In One Piece, resolve and willpower correlate directly with strength. The only Strawhat that has shown willpower/resolve that rivals Luffy's is Zoro. Both characters has had the same firm determination since childhood(,,), and were willing to die for their dreams.

Early on, Sanji thought their resolve was ridiculous and couldn't comprehend their reasoning (,)

It was only after Sanji witnessed Luffy and Zoro's resolves, that he began to strengthen his own.

Oda has put both Luffy and Zoro in a situation that greatly tests their willpower/resolve (,,)(,), while Sanji has took a backseat to this treatment.

The manga has made it clear that Luffy and Zoro are a step ahead of Sanji in this department.




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Roles*​
Luffy & Zoro are very similar characters in terms of personality() and their roles in the crew. They both have a thrill for combat() and it's pretty much the only thing they contribute to the crew.

Zoro's role on the crew is closest to Luffy's; It mainly revolves around combat. He doesn't have any special talents that make him as useful to the crew as Sanji. Luffy and Zoro are simple-minded brutes who excel in combat. Sanji's contribution isn't as one-dimensional as Luffy?s and Zoro?s. He adds more to the Strawhats than power, he adds tactical thinking and his profession as a cook.

Zoro's goal directly correlates with strength, he trains more, and he is tasked with defeating enemies, crewmembers that are weaker than him(Sanji) can't defeat(Daz Bones for example). Zoro is more than a *slightly stronger* version of Sanji, who is dumber and less useful.

Oda also chose to make Zoro a Supernova and a part of the Worst Generation which also is something he shares with his captain but not with Sanji.




With the time skip Oda gave himself the perfect opportunity to rearrange the relative strength of the Strawhats not only in comparison to the rest of the world but also in comparison to each other. 

Like previously shown, Zoro in general, is more comparable to Luffy than he is to Sanji in multiple aspects. 
Luffy and Zoro also had better conditions to improve during the time skip than Sanji. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




The strongest person Sanji directly could have learned from in Kamabakka Kingdom during this timeframe is Emporio Ivankov. Sanji hasn?t shown new techniques related to Newkama Kempo, meaning that aside from Haki and giving general advice he couldn?t learn things from Ivankov. Luffy trained one and a half year with Silvers Rayleigh, afterwards he trained alone for six months. Luffy trained with someone who doesn?t use his fighting style and thus only could teach him Haki and give him general advice. In this sense Luffy?s and Sanji?s training are similar. However, the difference between Rayleigh and Ivankov is that the former is a Haki master and arguably the most experienced person in the world. This means Luffy?s training with Rayleigh was similar in content but had a higher quality than Sanji?s training with Ivankov. Zoro trained under Mihawk for two years. Mihawk not only  is a swordsman like Zoro, he also is considered the best of the world. This means he is best possible person in the world for Zoro to train under. If someone knew what?s important for a swordsman to climb the ladder, it?s him. 
We see that Luffy?s training had a higher quality than Sanji?s and that Zoro?s training had more content. While it is questionable whether Rayleigh?s experience outweighs Mihawk?s and Zoro?s similarities or not, we can see that both trainings were superior to Sanji?s.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 7, 2014)

Based on Luffy and Zoro being closer in general and having superior training, it?s reasonable to expect that after the time-skip the gap between Luffy and Zoro is smaller than the gap between Zoro and Sanji.

Based on what?ve seen so far post-skip we feel vindicated in that notion.
So let us take a look now at post-skip:

*Spoiler*: __ 




It can be argued that the vast majority of positive feats the M3 showed post skip can replicated by the other two since the M3 are pretty close in power in comparison to the grand scheme of the world of One Piece and because their current limits haven?t been explored fully. No fight they won forced them to go to their limits.

*Spoiler*: _List of major fights the M3 won post-skip_ 




Luffy vs PX ? 5
Zoro and Sanji vs PX - 7
Zoro vs Hody Jones
Luffy vs Vander Decken IX
Sanji (and Jimbei) vs Wadatsumi
Zoro vs Hyouzou
Luffy vs Hody Jones
Luffy and Zoro vs. Punk Hazard Dragon
Luffy (and Franky) vs Yeti Cool Brothers
Zoro (and Tashigi) vs Monet
Luffy vs Caesar Clown (fight 3)
Luffy vs Don Chinjao



Because of that we will focus on portrayal post-skip.
If we exclude the Pacifistas (all three of them can one-shot those) all that?s left for Sanji is his fight against Wadatsumi. This fight doesn?t even remotely hold a candle in terms of importance in comparison to the fights Zoro and Luffy had. Furthermore he had to share this spotlight with Jimbei.  On the other hand Zoro won fights against the main antagonist of an arc (Hody), one of his allies that was praised by Luffy (Hyouzou), and someone Luffy chose to flee from (Monet). 
The gap in the portrayal of Zoro?s and Sanji?s fights clearly is bigger than the gap between Luffy?s and Zoro?s fights.

Taking other skirmishes that occured into consideration, Sanji?s situation doesn?t become better.

On Punk Hazard Sanji fought against Vergo; a subordinate of Doflamingo, who was defeated by Trafalgar Law(Fellow Supernova). During the fight, Vergo managed to fracture Sanji's most durable body part(). Sanji also showed notable signs of damage from the skirmish() while Vergo was unaffected. Sanji proved he could fight on par with him for a short time but manga suggests in a long term environment he would be in trouble. 
On Dressrosa Sanji had a confrontation with Doflamingo, who blocked two of Sanji?s attacks (the first one being a surprise attack), avoided a third attack, counterattacked him successfully, immobilized Sanji with his strings and at this point would have killed Sanji if Law had not saved him. In short: Oda clearly provided the readers with, where Sanji sits on the power-scale, compared to other high-tiers(Vergo for example), while Zoro remains without a cap.

Zoro is taking on Pica now who has the same rank as Vergo. This means Zoro has the opportunity to show good feats this arc. Then of course, there's the clash with Fujitora, where Zoro was able to escape from the field of gravity by his own power. For all we know Zoro escaping this attack and the clash itself were not necessary story wise. Nonetheless Oda included those things. After seeing how Doflamingo treated Sanji a few chapters earlier this clash surely didn?t happen to show that Zoro is close to Sanji. It?s rather the opposite, even Luffy has yet to be seen in such a good spotlight against someone of that caliber.




Summary:
- Luffy and Zoro have in general been portrayed closer than Zoro and Sanji.
- Luffy and Zoro had better conditions to improve during the timeskip than Sanji.
- Sanji had notably worse portrayal post-skip than Luffy and Zoro.

Our team firmly believes manga evidence suggests, Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji.


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 7, 2014)

*Teams have 24 hours to post their main rebuttals.*


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## Kuma (Mar 8, 2014)

Rebuttal to UJ   
*Spoiler*: __ 





> Strength comparison
> 
> 
> At the start of the Monster Trio's relationship, Oda clearly established where the characters stand in terms of strength, and over the course of the manga, it becomes evident that Zoro is generally closer to Luffy.
> ...







*Part. 1 Strength*

Little Garden 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm going to use a detailed timeline to show Zoro being closer to Sanji. As UJ demonstrated, up until Whiskey Peak, Zoro seems to be more associated with Luffy. But, that's also where it ends. Following that arc, the story takes up to the competition of the two evenly matched giants. 100 years they battled completely even. In this arc, Zoro and Sanji started a competition that really started their rivalry. The competition of finding the biggest prey just so happened to be the very same one the giants started. This is the beginning.



Alabasta 
*Spoiler*: __ 



In this arc, Luffy took on the Warlord, Crocodile. A man a good deal stronger than his subordinates.  This is a good example to show the difference. Daz is cut down in seconds by Mihawk whilst Crocodile was not felled by Mihawk. So, this is who Luffy fought. Zoro and Sanji fought the two next most capable fighters, Daz Bones and Bentham.



LRL 
*Spoiler*: __ 



This is the next arc where we get a great comparison of Zoro and Sanji's strength being closely related. The fight against the Groggy monsters. They both displayed near equal strength. In fact, in this fight, Sanji did a bit more fighting than Zoro. The best testament to their comparison was against the giant. Sanji was able to stand the giant up with a kick. Not to be outdone, Zoro was the one to bring him down. Both impressive but keep in mind one's going against gravity and  the other's working with it. No where to be shown that one character is stronger than another.



W7/EL 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Another arc displaying the close range of Zoro and Sanji with Luffy in the lead. Normally, Sanji supporters will play the doriki card but we're going beyond that. Zoro and Sanji didn't require much difficulty defeating their opponents. In these arcs, before Sanji even had to fight Jabra, he fought the marines and WG on the train ending with the Blueno loss. Fought on El along with Zoro and the others then was defeated by Kaliafa. Despite that, Jabra was only able to land 7 hits on Sanji before being handily defeated by a less than 100% Sanji who still had plenty left in the tank. Zoro did have his fight on W7 when he got stuck in the chimney then was T-Bone the aqua lunga and the fights he had on EL before fighting against Kaku, then Kaku and Jabra. which was mainly the two enemies bickering then to facing Kaku alone. Both men had to do a great deal of fighting but neither one outdid the other. On the other hand, Luffy had to fight the far stronger fighter again. Compared to Zoro and Sanji's battles, was far harder. Luffy again was shown on his own and now with Zoro but Sanji is shown close to Zoro.



TB
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Both Sanji and Zoro handily defeated their opponents in TB. Then came Oars. This was All Zoro and Sanji.
  Zoro with his three swords block the punch from Oars.  Not to be outdone, Sanji blocks a Bazooka from Oars.  Zoro was strong enough to make Oars bend, Sanji is strong enough to flip him on his head.  Zoro cut's the tower with ease, Sanji punts them like soccer balls. Always the two are comarible and in step until Luffy takes over and defeats the opponents. Zoro did take Luffy's pain and that's not to be ignored. But, when it comes to strength and comparisons, it's always with Sanji


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## Kuma (Mar 8, 2014)

*Continuation of Part 1*
Remainder of First Half 
*Spoiler*: __ 



This is how the story progressed from here in order. Sobaody, Amazon Lily, Impel Down and Marineford. Before we begin on the ending remember this panel and remember this quote from the man we're talking about.  We start Sabaody with the fight the against the flying fish raiders. This time, Sanji crushed the boss easily. The arc continued on until things got wild. The M3 beat the PX but the strain of the fight took Zoro out of commission. From this point it was an assault of the PX, Kizaru and Sentamaru. The two doing the most now were Luffy and Sanji. It was all futile but, they were the only ones capable of doing anything or at least trying. Sanji took a PX laser point blank and was still able to attack the real Kuma. Luffy lasted longer than everyone else but after him, Sanji did the best. Then the separation. The entire time Zoro was recovering Luffy had to fight on Amazon Lily, Impel Down and, Marineford. His entire time on these islands were spent fighting. This is where we remember Zoro's quote. Zoro and Sanji did do some fighting on Mihawk's kingdom and Kambacca kingdom but nothing compared the level of fighting and experience Luffy gained on his three island trip. This, by the very nature of how the Straw Hats get stronger, opened the gap between Luffy and the others. They did fight stronge people/animals than themselves but, nothing compared to the gauntlet Luffy faced.



                                     Rebuttal to UJ Part 2. Resolve and Will Power

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Resolve & Willpower
> 
> 
> In One Piece, resolve and willpower correlate directly with strength. The only Strawhat that has shown willpower/resolve that rivals Luffy's is Zoro. Both characters has had the same firm determination since childhood(1,2,3), and were willing to die for their dreams.
> ...





Sanji's Resolve 
*Spoiler*: __ 



This is an entirely subjective portion of the argument.Willpower = Self-discipline, training and control of oneself and one's conduct, usually for personal improvement. In no way does Sanji lack this nor does it lag behind the other two. Sanji refuses to kick a woman. Even if no one is around to see it he won't do it at the cost of his own life. This requires a massive amount of resole and discipline no matter how foolish it may personally seem to anyone. The resolve and and Will is so strong that, even with his shadow in a Zombie puppet, it refused to kick a female. It fought against direct orders from it's superior in order to not attack a female. Continue with will, Zoro bowed his head to his enemy to learn swordsmanship? Sanji bowed his head to Okama and lived there to become strong for Luffy's sake. A place with no women who he loves and all men who we all know Sanji hates. How does his resolve lack compared to anyone else?



*Rebuttal to UJ Part 3. Roles*

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Roles
> 
> 
> Luffy & Zoro are very similar characters in terms of personality(1) and their roles in the crew. They both have a thrill for combat(1) and it's pretty much the only thing they contribute to the crew.
> ...





Roles 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, this is a rather subjective argument. Fact is, they are considered the M3. It was a term coined by Nami. In W7, when Usopp was going off on his rant, he said the three of them were monsters that he could never hope to catch up to and can't keep up with. Sanji is never segregated from this comparison. I went through a detailed list already that show how the three of them are at the top. 

When the crew reunited, it was Zoro and Sanji togther taking out the PX while Luffy was alone. Under water it was Sanji and Zoro together that took out a tentacle each while Lufy took it out on his own. On F.I, when Luffy was approaching Hordy, It was Zoro and Sanji together that stopped the two large fishmen while Luffy walked on ahead. It's always shown Zoro and Sanji like this


.

UJ Haki 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> The strongest person Sanji directly could have learned from in Kamabakka Kingdom during this timeframe is Emporio Ivankov. Sanji hasnt shown new techniques related to Newkama Kempo, meaning that aside from Haki and giving general advice he couldnt learn things from Ivankov. Luffy trained one and a half year with Silvers Rayleigh, afterwards he trained alone for six months. Luffy trained with someone who doesnt use his fighting style and thus only could teach him Haki and give him general advice. In this sense Luffys and Sanjis training are similar. However, the difference between Rayleigh and Ivankov is that the former is a Haki master and arguably the most experienced person in the world. This means Luffys training with Rayleigh was similar in content but had a higher quality than Sanjis training with Ivankov. Zoro trained under Mihawk for two years. Mihawk not only is a swordsman like Zoro, he also is considered the best of the world. This means he is best possible person in the world for Zoro to train under. If someone knew whats important for a swordsman to climb the ladder, its him.
> We see that Luffys training had a higher quality than Sanjis and that Zoros training had more content. While it is questionable whether Rayleighs experience outweighs Mihawks and Zoros similarities or not, we can see that both training were superior to Sanjis.





"Begging the Question" and "Affirming the Consequent" Logical Fallacy 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Both of these logical fallacies were committed. Begging the question was committed with assuming Sanji was taught Haki. In a similar fashion, Affirming the consequent was committed when you assumed that because it's 100% confirmed that Luffy was trained in haki, then it must mean Zoro and Sanji were trained as well. Now that we laid that out, let's dive in. * IF* Sanji was trained, the strongest trainer would indeed be Iva. But, Sanji wasn't trained. In fact, Sanji refused to be trained because it violated everything he believed in. His task to was to fight 99 masters of Kenpo and retrieve the recipes.  In this explanation, it is said that Haki can be unlocked by intense training. 2 years of fighting 99 people stronger than he is as intense of training as you're going to get. When fighting and running, it's more natural for CoA and CoO to be unlocked. This is far more likely than him being trained. How could he be trained when he couldn't be caught and it went against the fact he didn't want to be trained. If, fighting around 10 people on the grand line made him as strong as he was, how strong would fighting 99 kenpo masters make him and how good of an environment is that to grow stronger? Because Mihawk potentially trained Zoro and Rayleigh trained Luffy in the basics for some months is no ground to say they have better haki than Sanji. We could speculate all day long but all arguments will be built on salt and sand.



Finally 
*Spoiler*: __ 



There is no evidence that Zoro as much of a separated gap from Sanji. However, arc to arc, we are able to demonstrate how close and related Sanji and Zoro are and how Luffy pulls ahead of both of them. After time skip. The first two combat scenes had Zoro and Sanji step in step matching each other. Zoro handily beat the beast swordsman who was drugged. Sanji casually kicked about and set on fire the largest person next to San Juan wolf. That requires tremendous power to kick and amazing amount of flames to burn in an instant. 

Zoro did take the Dragon's head.  But, Brook and Kinemon beat the more durable dragon. Just shows you needed a sword to beat one. Sanji fought the strongest man on the island. Luffy fought the second strongest on PH. Many love to say Sanji lost but no. He didn't In a head to head fight, Vergo wasn't able to land an attac on Sanji. His only damage came from choosing to block instead of dodge. This is all while the smoke is pouring in and he still saved two soldiers with a skywalk after. Zoro fought Monet. not a week person but this is the comparison of of the Elite Suites and the officers.  

On DR there was the short exchanges with Fujitora and Dolamingo. Neither one did good nor bad but it was not shown that either one outdoes the other as always.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 8, 2014)

*Main Rebuttal*



Dr. White said:


> Opening Argument: Zoro is closer to Sanji than Luffy.
> Main Points:
> 1. Luffy has shown that he is the strongest of the group.
> _ i._ Luffy has always taken out the big bad in the group, Luffy always has the most monsterous feats, and is the most notorious. Constantly Luffy has beaten down people thought to be tiers ahead of him (Croc, Lucci, Enel) all of which would have wishwashed Zoro and Sanji.



You have to consider what exactly happened in those situations.


*Spoiler*: _Crocodile_ 



Crocodile would have wishwashed Zoro and Sanji as much as he wishwashed Luffy in their first fight. He was out of their league.

Oda did many things to make it possible for Luffy to beat him nonetheless.

Luffy lost two fights against Croc. He only survived those fights because of Robin (1st fight) and a lot of luck (2nd fight). Thanks to his experiences until this point he knew how to make Crocodile tangible und thus he could negate the main reason why Croc was so hard to beat. Furthermore Luffy would have died after the third fight if Robin wouldn?t have had the antidote to cure Crocodile?s poison.

We see that thanks to the way the story proceeded Luffy had the following advantages when he beat Croc:
- Knowledge on Crocodile?s abilities
- Preparation time (Croc thought Luffy is dead, Luffy searched out Croc for a rematch)
- Getting saved from death twice
- Crocodiles poison doesn?t kill if he is beaten in time

What basis is there to claim that Zoro and Sanji wouldn?t have won as well with those massive advantages?




*Spoiler*: _Enel_ 



From all characters we know Luffy is the worst possible match-up for Enel due to the nature of their abilities. If Luffy would have eaten a DF other than the Gomu Gomu no Mi he would have lost against Enel like everyone else on Skypeia. 

Again, on what basis can you claim that Zoro and Sanji still would have lost against Enel, if they would?ve been immune to all of his electricity based attacks and if Enel could have been hurt by all of their attacks?




Crocodile and Enel were superior to the M3 and for the reasons we mentioned Luffy beating them under the circumstances he did is not a testament of Luffy being farther ahead of Zoro than Zoro was to Sanji at that point in time.


Lucci will be adressed later on.




> _ii._ Zoro and Sanji both get great feats on a similar level and are usually portrayed side by side in rivalry during combat. It's a relationship to . This is apparent many times in the series: during fishman island when, During EL where they to get to the other side, In TB when they are fighting OZ and in Luffy's absence, , etc. It is clear these two share a rivalry much deeper than just comedic relief.



We acknowledge that their rivalry is more than comedic relief. Nonetheless the fundamental similarities between Luffy and Zoro we showcased in our opening clearly outweigh Zoro?s and Sanji?s disputatiousness and their occasional team-ups.



> 2. Sanji has shown that he can increase decrease the gap that partially existed in the pre- skip.
> _i._ Preface by saying that I think the Doriki thing Oda did with CP9 was pretty telling. Kaku after being out 4 years was a bit stronger than Jyabura(once again look at their relationship to see the mirror images)but not by much at all. While Lucci was almost twice above them. That really showcased how the Monster 3 was set up. Zoro beat an opponent with 20 more doriki than Sanji's opponent. But the difficulty at which they won varied. Sanji won with an easier time than zoro did which slighlty mitigates the fact that zoro beat a stronger opponent( because the power difference in each opponent was so small). Which means if we simply equate Doriki(D) with Power Level(P) (for sake of comparison) then Zoro would be higher than Kaku but not so much that he is signifigantly further than Sanji (who beat a slightly less stronger opponent than zoro with injuries). While Luffy who slighlty edges out Lucci is comfortably ahead but definitely not double Sanji or Zoro.



Oda always tries to hype up the main antagonist of an arc. Doriki were a method to hype up Lucci at the start of EL. Those numbers are not suited to show the difference in power within the M3.

Doriki is a value used to compare physical strength, but physical strength is only one of many things that are important to gauge how characters compare. 
Furthermore these values only apply to the base forms of Lucci, Kaku and Jyabura. When they use their DFs their Doriki increase by an unknown amount meaning we don?t even know the correct numbers to use. If we also take into consideration that Zoro and Sanji won a lot easier against their opponents than Luffy did, we see that the gap actually is notable closer than what the Doriki imply.

As you can see, comparing the differences between the standings of three characters based on the Doriki of the opponents they fought is a lot more complicated than you made it seem. Those numbers are not reliable.




> _ ii_. Feats this timeskip are pretty even between Sanji and Zoro but Luffy is still winning. Best Feats include:
> -Luffy - Beating Drugged Hodi, Hitting the Kraken with force underwater, 1 shot pacifista and monster chopper, Grizzly Magnum, Tearing up the Noah, and defeating Don Chinjao.
> -Zoro has beaten Hyuzen, Beat Base Hodi, Scared a Logia enough to strike her, slashed a decent sized cliff while mid sleep, Parried with Fuji, and escaped his gravity hole, cutting off Dragon's head, 360 Pound canon.
> -Sanji - Strong enough to Kick/Scorch Wadatsumi (Hells Memories), Blitzed Vergo with a Geppou, and fought him with DJ's;Best showing of COO, Blue Walk, Blitzing a Sniper, Intercepted Doflamingo and earned praise from him, Confident enough to fire on BM Ship.
> ...



You don?t properly explain how the feats you listed translate into the gaps the way you see them. Just saying you feel the way is not enough if you want argue based on feats.

Also if we take a look back at pre-skip Zoro we see that he has yet to show the post-skip versions of some of his strongest moves (Asura being the most prominent one). This means he has still a lot up his sleeve. Can you say the same about Sanji?

Furthermore these clashes you mentioned went a lot worse for Sanji than for Zoro like we already stated in our opening. The results of those clashes shouldn?t be overlooked.


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 8, 2014)

*Rapid Fire Round begins now and will last for 48 hours. Teams may engage each other in direct rebuttals. Judges may ask questions or raise any concerns they may have. Reminder to judges, you're not here to debate, only ask questions. *


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## Shanks (Mar 8, 2014)

The objectives of my questions are to bring the best out of the debaters and most importantly cover any points the teams haven't addressed or what were addressed are not cutting it.



*At Team Closer to Sanji* - Please elaborate or respond on the following points/questions from team Luffy:


1. Stats From One Piece Databook.
2. Dressrosa & Punk Hazard top feats comparison, that is Sanji vs. Vergo, Sanji vs. Doflamingo, Zoro vs. Fujitora, Zoro vs. Pica, Luffy vs. Chinjao.
3. Zoro & Luffy as part of the worst generation.
4. Please elaborate on your rebuttal to 'Resolve & Willpower' looking at credible examples outside of the M3.
5. M3 Roles - Please elaborate with examples outside of M3.
6. Where does it clearly state that Sanji "fighting 99 people stronger than he is" during the 2 years timeskip? Please elaborate with examples outside of M3 on how these experiences can/cannot be comparable to training with top tiers.


*At Team Closer to Luffy* - Please elaborate or respond on the following points/questions

Nothing for now


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 8, 2014)

Team Luffy/Zoro, may I ask why you feel Hody, Hyozu, and Monet were worth mentioning? Hody was fodder to the M3 before and after his transformation. IIRC, in his encounter with Luffy, Hyozu only blocked one blow from Luffy, at a distance, when Luffy wasn't serious and attacking multiple opponents. When Luffy was serious, he wiped the floor with Drugged Hody, an opponent far stronger than Base Hyozu, and Drugged Hyozu was beaten by Zoro without much trouble. Luffy was mainly having trouble with Monet due to CIS, and at the end of the day, Monet wasn't really a threat to the M3 either. Zoro wasn't even the one who KOed her, Monet went down in one hit from Tashigi.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 8, 2014)

*questions for team zoro/sanji*
-please elaborate more on zoro v fujitora in comparison to sanji v DD.

*questions for team zoro/luffy.*
-i'm gonna ask u why do u think that the doriki's are an unreliable source to help see the portrayal of the M3 prowess in EL. its not just baseless hype that u can ignore. douriki's does infact only include physical abilities, DF/rokushiki are not included, but the fact that kaku had just attained his DF, means that he lacks in that department compared to lucci and jyabura, and in rokushiki, lucci clearly outclasses both big time. also they did defeat the enemies easier than luffy, but the fact that lucci is double them in physical strength, and outclasses them in rukoshiki, [which means speed(soru)/durability(tekkaitsugi)/mobility(kamisori)/reaction speed(kamie)DC(rankyaku:gaicho/rokuogan)] plus his DF mastery, should be well more than enough to even up the fact that they had easier fights.

-the point u made on croc, that zoro and sanji are capable of beaten him, if they had intel/prep time/3 rounds to fight croc/poison won't kill if beaten before it takes its effects(this one is kinda obvious), and luffy did not do anything in his 'prep time', he was basically searching for croc, so that point is irrelevant. so from ur point i understand that both zoro and sanji can defeat croc if they had intel, and had 3 rounds to go against croc, i'm afraid that's not true, having intel isn't guaranteeing them a win at all(luffy v croc 2nd round), and basically croc would beat them in all three rounds. unless u have some feats/facts that suggest otherwise.


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## Shanks (Mar 8, 2014)

G’day team Zoro/Luffy,

What I want to point out is that your rebuttal to the other team’s opening is very vague but I do request you to elaborate and respond clearly and precisely when rebutting to the other team’s rebuttal to further address and counter the arguments put forth.

Let me also remind all debaters that this rapid fire round, so feel free to respond rapidly!  

Cheers,

Sabo


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## Magician (Mar 8, 2014)

Sabo said:


> *At Team Closer to Sanji* - Please elaborate or respond on the following points/questions from team Luffy:
> 
> 
> 1. Stats From One Piece Databook.




*Spoiler*: __ 



The databook that was quoted is from Databook Red, the very first databook that was released for One Piece which essentially covers the first half of the pre skip.

And like Kuma stated, there are certain points near the beginning of the series where Luffy and Zoro do indeed seem closely affiliated with each other during that time period, but after that is also where that ends and he becomes a lot more closely correlated with Sanji(which I'm not going to get into seeing as Kuma covered that point pretty efficiently in his rebuttal). Which could be a case of the author simply changing his mind or the gap between Luffy and Zoro widening as the series progress which, in consequence, making Zoro more closely related strength-wise with Sanji than Luffy. Whatever the case, the portrayal shown in the manga throughout the Alabasta saga and on shows that Zoro and Sanji are closer to each other than Luffy and Zoro are which my team will show throughout this debate.

Also, I'd like to say, that particular databook, I believe, mentions that Luffy and Zoro are equals which is something most would disagree with. 

But for clarifications sake, I'd like to ask if "Team Closer to Luffy" do in fact believe that Luffy and Zoro are portrayed as equals throughout the series, considering you brought up Databook Red as a means to prove that Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, you'd also have to accept the sentiment that Zoro and Luffy _are_ indeed equals which I will respond to depending on your answer to this.






> 2. Dressrosa & Punk Hazard top feats comparison, that is Sanji vs. Vergo, Sanji vs. Doflamingo, Zoro vs. Fujitora, Zoro vs. Pica, Luffy vs. Chinjao.




*Spoiler*: __ 



*First off, I'd like to preface that my team is not arguing that Sanji is stronger than Zoro, but simply that the gap between Luffy and Zoro is larger than the gap between Zoro and Sanji.*

And considering that, I do believe Zoro to be stronger than Sanji(slightly so, but stronger nonetheless) so he would obviously get the better opponents and the better portrayal than Sanji would.

For example, him fighting Mr. 1 with Sanji fighting Mr. 2. And Zoro fighting Kaku who had a slightly better Doriki than Jyabura who Sanji fought, etc.

However, if you were to make the argument Luffy fighting opponents who were stronger than Zoro and Sanji were circumstantial and that there's no proof that Zoro couldn't handle the same opponents Luffy had with the same circumstances, you'd have to make the same argument for Sanji as well.

There's no proof that Zoro would perform any better than Sanji did against opponents like Vergo and Doflamingo considering the circumstances and there's no proof that Sanji would perform any worse than Zoro did against opponents like Fujitora and Pica.

But that's not what were arguing here. Whether one could perform the same as the other with the same circumstances is besides the point. What we're arguing here is portrayal. 

Luffy has better portrayal than Zoro who has better portrayal than Sanji. But considering Luffy, having fought against opponents who are a lot stronger than the likes of Zoro/Sanji and the duo fighting opponents who are portrayed as very close to each other throughout the series(including the rivalry they have which the other team admitted goes further than just silly gags) you can make the conclusion that the gap between Zoro and Sanji is smaller than the gap between Luffy and Zoro.






> 3. Zoro & Luffy as part of the worst generation.




*Spoiler*: __ 



As far as the Worst Generation goes. You need to be strong to fit in to that category of course, but the term moreso applies to the most explosive and famous rookies at the time, new pirates that had a bounty of over 100 million. And I'm sure most people won't dispute that bounty =/= strength, considering the fact that Chopper still has a bounty of 50. Bounty is more correlated with fame and popularity than it does with strength.

Zoro is a lot more popular than Sanji is throughout the world. He started his journey off as the feared Pirate Hunter, with that same epithet being carried on throughout his career as a pirate.

Sanji, however, didn't have fame starting out. He didn't go around fighting strong opponents and earning himself a feared reputation. He was just a simple cook in a small restaurant out in the seas. 

Most people would more readily recognize Zoro than they would someone like Sanji who didn't receive as much fame and popularity as Zoro has starting his career as just a cook.

So Sanji not being included in the Worst Generation is not a matter of lacking strength, but a matter of lacking fame and popularity, especially considering someone like Capone is included in said list when most would agree that Sanji doesn't lack in strength compared to him. 

Also considering the fact that Zoro has one of the lowest bounties amongst said group and I'm sure the opposing team wouldn't say that Zoro is one of the weakest of the Supernova.

So we can only conclude that Sanji not being included in that list is only a lack of popularity and not particularly a lack of strength.

And in the matter of portrayal. Yeah, Zoro being included in the group gives him the 1up on Sanji, which I don't dispute with.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji. In fact, if you wanted to use Bounty as an indicator of portrayal you'd see that Zoro's bounty was much closer to Sanji's than it was to Luffy's at the time who had over 300 million. 






> 4. Please elaborate on your rebuttal to 'Resolve & Willpower' looking at credible examples outside of the M3.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm not sure I understand your question exactly, but one thing I'd like to mention is that Will Power and Resolve correlating directly with strength is something that I disagree with heavily.

Portgas D. Rouge had absolutely incredible will power, being able to hold her baby for _20 months_ to protect him is definitely nothing to scoff at.

Look at some of the flashback characters, like Bellemere who sacrificed her life for her daughters or Hiluluk who fought incredibly hard to bring happiness to his country and I'm sure he had more resolve than Wapol, despite Wapol being stronger than he was. 

And there's many more examples throughout the series of people who have very strong will power and resolve despite not being very strong themselves.

So I find that notion to be pretty ridiculous.






> 5. M3 Roles - Please elaborate with examples outside of M3.



Diamante is leader of the Battle Brigade which is mainly combat oriented. Doesn't mean he's automatically stronger than the likes of Trebol, Pica, and Vergo who are of the same rank who have other responsibilities towards the crew besides fighting.



> 6. Where does it clearly state that Sanji "fighting 99 people stronger than he is" during the 2 years timeskip? Please elaborate with examples outside of M3 on how these experiences can/cannot be comparable to training with top tiers.





Law and Kidd aren't shown to train with any notable top tiers and didn't lose a step to Luffy.



> *At Team Closer to Luffy* - Please elaborate or respond on the following points/questions
> 
> Nothing for now



Right, give me all the work and them none. I see how it is.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 8, 2014)

*@ ♦Young Master♦* - Thank You very much.



> Right, give me all the *work *and them none. I see how it is.


I would reword the word "work" with "opportunities".


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## Mike S (Mar 8, 2014)

BartholomewKuma said:


> *Part. 1 Strength*
> 
> Little Garden
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



We have shown manga evidence that clearly depicts, Luffy and Zoro a step ahead of Sanji, and you even mentioned Zoro was associated with Luffy up until Whiskey Peak. I would like to ask, what has Sanji done between Whiskey Peak and Little Garden, that justifies a higher growth rate than Luffy and Zoro? What Oda did during Little Garden was introduce the rivalry that Zoro and Sanji share in competition, and not strength per se. The giants were used by Oda to highlight the competitive relationship between Zoro and Sanji; not their relationship in strength. Dorry and Broggy were completely equal and we know for a fact Sanji wasn't equal to Zoro. Clearly the symbolism in Dorry = Broggy was not supposed to be taken as Zoro = Sanji in strength; it was used as a device to highlight the competitive rivalry Zoro and Sanji share. 

During Arabasta - Skypiea, Zoro trained more, was pushed harder in his fights(Daz), and received more fights than Sanji during Skypiea. After Arlong Park, Luffy and Zoro experienced the same danger(arguably more) as Sanji, so what justifies a change in the gap that was introduced during Arlong Park? 

All 3 characters gained power-ups during EL which affected the gaps(particularly Luffy's) but TB clearly shows, Zoro decreasing/increasing the gap on Luffy/Sanji. Zoro received another power-up and superior portrayal, while Sanji gained nothing.



BartholomewKuma said:


> *Continuation of Part 1*
> Remainder of First Half
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



This logic is flawed. Yes, Luffy visited 3 islands after SA, but gauging his growth rate is a lot more complicated than you're suggesting. First you have to look at it from Oda's standpoint. Separating the SH's from the story was necessary for Oda to focus on the plot at hand. He couldn't juggle all these characters and maintain the quality of story.  AL, ID and MF were also islands necessary for Luffy to travel because it was build-up. Taking these things into account, it becomes evident, Oda disregarded Luffy's past growth rate to maintain balance in his story.

Luffy fought non-stop, battled the toughest opponents the OP world has to offer, and experienced his biggest test in willpower to date, during the course of these 3 islands. Going by your logic, that would make the gap between Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji, the same as the gap between W7 Luffy, Arabasta Zoro and Arabasta Sanji. Obviously this was not Oda's intentions. Not only would this logic mean Luffy increased the gap between Zoro and Sanji, it would also mean he increased the gap with Kidd, Law, X Drake, etc. . Do you really think we were intended to view MF Luffy, far ahead of SA Kidd, SA Law and the rest of the Supernovas?

Also the Strawhats went into training directly after the war. This gave Oda the ability to place these characters exactly where they needed to be in strength without any explanation.



BartholomewKuma said:


> Rebuttal to UJ Part 2. Resolve and Will Power
> 
> Sanji's Resolve
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



The things you list only shows Sanji has strengthened his resolve(Like every member who joined the SH's). We acknowledged Sanji has strengthened his resolve in our opening. Our argument was he falls behind Luffy and Zoro in this department, and you failed to bring any manga evidence that shows he's on par. 

Luffy and Zoro has had the same firm determination since children. They dedicated their lives to their dreams at a young age and never lost sight. Oda has put both characters in a test of willpower, where failure meant death. Can you say the same for Sanji?



BartholomewKuma said:


> *Rebuttal to UJ Part 3. Roles*
> 
> Roles
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I fail to see how this addressed our point. We know Sanji is strong, he is apart of the M3. We argued how Zoro's role is purely strength related, while Sanji brings much more to the table.  

Strength is the foundation of Zoro's character. He dedicated his entire life to becoming strong, his goal is literally to stand at the top in strength, he trains more, and its the only thing he adds to the crew. Even after all of this, Zoro is just a slightly stronger version of Sanji, who lacks in more areas?


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## Mike S (Mar 8, 2014)

The rest of Kumas post I will leave to my teammate who has expressed the desire to address it 

*@monkey d ace - In relations to douriki*
Though I agree, Douriki can be used to give us a general idea of where a character stands, I disagree with the notion that it can be used to measure the strength relationship between the M3 per se. 

Blueno who has a douriki of 820, was able to keep up with Base Luffy's attacks and even matched his Gomu Gomu no Pistol(), before Luffy realized he needed G2 to take him out quickly. Base Luffy then went on to match a character with 4X Blueno's Douriki.

2200 and 2180 were Kaku and Jyabura's Douriki's, not Zoro and Sanji's. Zoro and Sanji were injured from various fights during EL, before facing Kaku and Jyabura. Even after being handicapped, they defeated the two and continued to battle their way through EL. Surely, Zoro and Sanji both were above 2200 in douriki.

Lucci, who had a douriki of 4000, pushed Luffy(Who had an advantage with his blunt damage immunity) to his absolute limit. Lucci technically had the battle won before Luffy released an attack fueled by sheer willpower. Based off that, one can say Luffy's douriki was 4000 at best. This would make the gap between Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji, smaller than the gap between Lucci, Kaku, Jyabura.

As you can see, gauging a characters strength based off their opponents douriki is a lot more complicated than rounding to the nearest number.

*@Sabo- In relation to rebuttal *
Our rebuttal may have lacked in quality because their opening didn't give us much to work with.


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## Kuma (Mar 8, 2014)

Sabo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*To, Judge Sabo: Questions 1-6*

1.
*Spoiler*: __ 



The Datebook Red dates back to whiskey peak and Mach 2, 2002. As of March 8, 2014; the numbers in the date book are rendered null. It was a showing of strength back in Whiskey Peak. In the story, that's about 2.5 years ago. But, if we take a look, the marking for Sanji's power is only one horizontal notch under that of Zoro's. A slight notch. This is where I demonstrate in my timeline that Zoro and Luffy's comparison ended and the Zoro Sanji comparison began.



2. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



These three fights are vastly different in which way to compare? Sanji vs Vergo; Sanji sent Vergo crashing through the walls twice and parried every attack he threw. The only time Vergo had a one-up was when Sanji choose to block a kick rather than avoid it.Even after the injury, Sanji was more than capable of still fighting. Sanji Vs DD. Sanji attacked DD, DD blocked the first attack. Sanji attacked again to which Doffy dodged and attaced back. Sanji was not taken down by the attack Doffy thought beat him and Sanji attacked again. Doffy blocked the attack and instead and restrained Sanji with a move capable of restraining Diamond Jozu amd the fight ended there. Zoro vs Fujitora. Zoro went to attack Doflamingo. Fujitora intercepted the attack and turned on his gravity sending Zoro through the ground. Zoro sent a flying slash up and fuji blocked it. End of fight. Luffy had a full fight against a legendary pirate and won. With the facts laid out, how can one determine who's stronger than who when all the opponents really can't be compared and the fights have such little substance



3. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



The entire strawhat crew are a part of the worst generation. All Super Nova Crews and all members are a part of the worst generation. Zoro and Luffy are Super Nova. The requirement to be a Nova is to be able to reach Sabaody with a bounty exceeding 100million Beri. Sanji is not a Nova because unlike Luffy who has 3 bountie and Zoro who had 2, Sanji only has 1 bounty. In comparrison, event though Sanji only has 1 bounty, he has the third highest first bounty ever after Boa Hancock and Nico Robin. Lacking a second bounty is the only reason he isn't a Nova. Unfair to separate him for that.



4. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Willpower is your drive to better yourself. It's you maintaining integrity and holding determination to usually better yourself. Chopper Staying behind on the island to learn, Usopp doing the same are all will power. Law, while seeing all his peers enter the New World and his crew egging him on to go, decided to stay behind and wait despite the peer pressure. All examples of will power. Sanji doesn't Lack in the willpower department as I've explained.



5. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Being a combatant isn't everything. A ship wright and musician are among the stronger in the crew. while the sniper who is a combatant is the weakest. A  man who wants to be in a family was the strongest in the world. Another who only cared for adventure was another strongest in the world. Law is a doctor and Zeff is a Chef. A role means nothing in the eyes of strength.



6.
*Spoiler*: __ 



  This is the panel where Sanji refused to be trained. You can read where Iva begins to offer him a challenge. That challenge is the defeat and retrieve the 99 recipes from the 99 masters. Let;s put things in perspective for the second half of your question. Who benefited from straight fighting vs training right? Here's a way to look at it? 

Aside from Zoro and Luffy, who has been trained? Only marine soldiers. Even the colored trio of Kizaru, Akainu, and Kuzan were all monsters *before* entering the marines and being trained. All powerful pirates we know of, there is zero evidence that a single one of them were trained. Yet, they are vastly powerful and skilled just from continuous fighting and experience. Where has it ever been shown being trained exceeds personal growth and experience?






*Spoiler*: __ 





monkey d ace said:


> *questions for team zoro/sanji*
> *-please elaborate more on zoro v fujitora in comparison to sanji v DD*.
> 
> *questions for team zoro/luffy.*
> ...






*To, Judge Monkey D Ace*


*Spoiler*: __ 



The two fights weren't much of fights and can hardly be compared. If we reduce them to their essence, this is what you have.
1.Sanji Vs DD- Sanji attack ->DD block -> Sanji attack ->DD dodge ->DD attack -> Sanji takes attack-> Sanji attack-> DD blocks-> DD restrain-> DD attacks-> Sanji saved
2. Zoro vs Fujitora- Zoro attacks DD-> Fuji blocks->Fuji uses gravity to send Zoro into a pit-.Zoro sends flying slash-> Fuji blocks. Fight over.

The only difference is Sanji fought longer and attacked 3 times whiles Zoro attacked fuji once and Dd once. Neither shows who could be stronger.


----------



## Kuma (Mar 8, 2014)

*TPH* 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> We have shown manga evidence that clearly depicts, Luffy and Zoro a step ahead of Sanji, and you even mentioned Zoro was associated with Luffy up until Whiskey Peak. I would like to ask, what has Sanji done between Whiskey Peak and Little Garden, that justifies a higher growth rate than Luffy and Zoro? What Oda did during Little Garden was introduce the rivalry that Zoro and Sanji share in competition, and not strength per se. The giants were used by Oda to highlight the competitive relationship between Zoro and Sanji; not their relationship in strength. Dorry and Broggy were completely equal and we know for a fact Sanji wasn't equal to Zoro. Clearly the symbolism in Dorry = Broggy was not supposed to be taken as Zoro = Sanji in strength; it was used as a device to highlight the competitive rivalry Zoro and Sanji share.
> 
> During Arabasta - Skypiea, Zoro trained more, was pushed harder in his fights(Daz), and received more fights than Sanji during Skypiea. After Arlong Park, Luffy and Zoro experienced the same danger(arguably more) as Sanji, so what justifies a change in the gap that was introduced during Arlong Park?
> 
> All 3 characters gained power-ups during EL which affected the gaps(particularly Luffy's) but TB clearly shows, Zoro decreasing/increasing the gap on Luffy/Sanji. Zoro received another power-up and superior portrayal, while Sanji gained nothing.







*Spoiler*: __ 



The only evidence you've presented is the very first datebook from March 2, 2002. There has been 12 years of change since then. Every time line shown shows the relation to Zoro and Sanji. Not in a single one of those arcs are there any relations to Luffy and Zoro. Never once are they shown in tandem. Never did Zoro face a fighter close to Luffy. In every single one of those arcs, Sanji and Zoro have been hand and hand. If you feel so, I propose a challenge. Destroy our timeline, Using manga evidence, talk about or show Zoo and Luffy being more closely related in each step of the timeline. Show Zoro and Luffy being compared more than Sanji and Zoro. If that can be done, then it cast doubt on our argument. 




Logic 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> This logic is flawed. Yes, Luffy visited 3 islands after SA, but gauging his growth rate is a lot more complicated than you're suggesting. First you have to look at it from Oda's standpoint. Separating the SH's from the story was necessary for Oda to focus on the plot at hand. He couldn't juggle all these characters and maintain the quality of story. AL, ID and MF were also islands necessary for Luffy to travel because it was build-up. Taking these things into account, it becomes evident, Oda disregarded Luffy's past growth rate to maintain balance in his story.
> 
> Luffy fought non-stop, battled the toughest opponents the OP world has to offer, and experienced his biggest test in willpower to date, during the course of these 3 islands. Going by your logic, that would make the gap between Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji, the same as the gap between W7 Luffy, Arabasta Zoro and Arabasta Sanji. Obviously this was not Oda's intentions. Not only would this logic mean Luffy increased the gap between Zoro and Sanji, it would also mean he increased the gap with Kidd, Law, X Drake, etc. . Do you really think we were intended to view MF Luffy, far ahead of SA Kidd, SA Law and the rest of the Supernovas?
> 
> Also the Strawhats went into training directly after the war. This gave Oda the ability to place these characters exactly where they needed to be in strength without any explanation.







*Spoiler*: __ 



This logic is not flawed. I did something with this argument that isn't being recipricated. I presented a panel from the manga. Zoro, from his Very mouth said this. If it is indeed flawed, please provide a manga panel that contradicts this. If your claim of my logic being flawed is to hold up, you must show where and what in the manga makes this flawed? As it stands it IS manga fact. Here's a question to solidify the point, in the manga we WITNESS the M3 grow every island and every Arc. So, why would Luffy suddenly stop because Zoro and Sanji aren't there? why would something we always accept as true when the rest of the crew is around suddenly stop when Luffy now made it to the hardest fights of his life? Please explain in manga detail how Zoro, on bed rest managed to keep up with Luffy who spent his entire time fighting?? How did the inactive man keep up?




Will 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> The things you list only shows Sanji has strengthened his resolve(Like every member who joined the SH's). We acknowledged Sanji has strengthened his resolve in our opening. Our argument was he falls behind Luffy and Zoro in this department, and you failed to bring any manga evidence that shows he's on par.
> 
> Luffy and Zoro has had the same firm determination since children. They dedicated their lives to their dreams at a young age and never lost sight. Oda has put both characters in a test of willpower, where failure meant death. Can you say the same for Sanji?







*Spoiler*: __ 



From a kid Sanji has dreamed of the All Blue, he maintained that dream. How does he lack will? Instead of persuiring that dream, he worked with and stayed with the man who saved his life and helped that man build his dream, how does that lack resolve? As a child, he went 85 days without food compared to one month of adult Zoro. How is that lacking will? No matter the risk he refuses to lay hands on a woman how does that lack resolve? Then the two year traiing in hell. Those are all serious questions.




Roles 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> I fail to see how this addressed our point. We know Sanji is strong, he is apart of the M3. We argued how Zoro's role is purely strength related, while Sanji brings much more to the table.
> 
> Strength is the foundation of Zoro's character. He dedicated his entire life to becoming strong, his goal is literally to stand at the top in strength, he trains more, and its the only thing he adds to the crew. Even after all of this, Zoro is just a slightly stronger version of Sanji, who lacks in more areas?







*Spoiler*: __ 



*Copy reply from Sabo question 5* Being a combatant isn't everything. A ship wright and musician are among the stronger in the crew. while the sniper who is a combatant is the weakest. A man who wants to be in a family was the strongest in the world. Another who only cared for adventure was another strongest in the world. Law is a doctor and Zeff is a Chef. A role means nothing in the eyes of strength.


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## Slenderman (Mar 8, 2014)

> The databook that was quoted is from Databook Red, the very first databook that was released for One Piece which essentially covers the first half of the pre skip.
> 
> And like Kuma stated, there are certain points near the beginning of the series where Luffy and Zoro do indeed seem closely affiliated with each other during that time period, but after that is also where that ends and he becomes a lot more closely correlated with Sanji(which I'm not going to get into seeing as Kuma covered that point pretty efficiently in his rebuttal). Which could be a case of the author simply changing his mind or the gap between Luffy and Zoro widening as the series progress which, in consequence, making Zoro more closely related strength-wise with Sanji than Luffy. Whatever the case, the portrayal shown in the manga throughout the Alabasta saga and on shows that Zoro and Sanji are closer to each other than Luffy and Zoro are which my team will show throughout this debate.



Please elaborate on Zoro and Sanji from Alabasta and on. 




> I'd like to say, that particular databook, I believe, mentions that Luffy and Zoro are equals which is something most would disagree with.



As of the beginning part of the series, Oda has shown Zoro and Lufy as equals in a whole chapter dedicated to their fight.  




> for clarifications sake, I'd like to ask if "Team Closer to Luffy" do in fact believe that Luffy and Zoro are portrayed as equals throughout the series, considering you brought up Databook Red as a means to prove that Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, you'd also have to accept the sentiment that Zoro and Luffy _are_ indeed equals which I will respond to depending on your answer to this.



As stated in datebook Red and in Whiskey Peak, we do think that at that point Zoro was very close to Luffy and basically is equal. Over the arcs, right where we hit EL, this equality was broken down with Luffy's use of the gears to push ahead of everybody and become stronger. Promptly after in Thriller Bark Zoro was able to move in closer with Shusui, and showed that he could take all of Luffy's gear stacking, and damage he received from the Moria fight. 
 Od stated that Zoro has better COA than Sanji. At first glance this wouldn't mean much but, with better COA the chances of something happening to Zoro's swords per se, is low. Sanji broke his leg against Vergo while the chances of anything happening to Zoro or his swords is minimal.

Against DD with a free shot I could see Zoro at least scathing DD's feather coat. Zoro is a much more lethal fighter and giving him the opportunity that Sanji got would met likely help him reap better rests. While there is no exact "proof: for this argument there are unite a few factors that must be taken into account when putting 2 completely different characters with different fighting styles in a "what if" situation. 




> that's not what were arguing here. Whether one could perform the same as the other with the same circumstances is besides the point. What we're arguing here is portrayal.



And in portrayal Zoro fought an opponent that is likely stronger than DD. And Zoro came out of his exchange not with bandages  
He left with slight blood around his mouth 
We cannot say that Zoro didn't come out of his exchange looking better against a stronger opponent. Sanji did get parsed twice but one was by virtue of a sneak attack. Both's fights got interrupted but when Zoro's did, he wasn't about to get low diffed. 


The rest of the post is too long os i'm not quoting that. PH will handle it


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## Magician (Mar 8, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> The rest of Kumas post I will leave to my teammate who has expressed the desire to address it
> 
> *@monkey d ace - In relations to douriki*
> Though I agree, Douriki can be used to give us a general idea of where a character stands, I disagree with the notion that it can be used to measure the strength relationship between the M3 per se.



>Douriki can give us a general idea of where a character stands.
>Can't be used for the M3.

Why? Because you don't want it to?



> Blueno who has a douriki of 820, was able to keep up with Base Luffy's attacks and even matched his Gomu Gomu no Pistol(), before Luffy realized he needed G2 to take him out quickly. Base Luffy then went on to match a character with 4X Blueno's Douriki.
> 
> 2200 and 2180 were Kaku and Jyabura's Douriki's, not Zoro and Sanji's. Zoro and Sanji were injured from various fights during EL, before facing Kaku and Jyabura. Even after being handicapped, they defeated the two and continued to battle their way through EL. Surely, Zoro and Sanji both were above 2200 in douriki.
> 
> ...



Okay, I'm pretty sure most people would agree that Doriki isn't to be taken literally as in it's pointless to analyze it mathematically because you're sure to find inconsistencies, but you can't just brush it off like it's nothing just because you want to.

Oda introduced these numbers for a reason. What other purpose would he have for bringing Doriki into play than to show the strength differences between the CP9? (which for the most part have been consistent in that Rob Lucci >> Kaku > Jabra >> Blueno, etc.)

Oda gave fights to Zoro and Sanji, having them fight Kaku and Jabra who had very closely related Doriki(again, Oda made them close for a reason), which both won with around the same difficulty, while giving Luffy a fight with the man who had twice that amount(and again, Oda made it that way for a reason), who obviously barely won by the skin of his teeth.

But you can see how Zoro and Sanji are portrayed together with each other this arc, right? Oda could've very easily portrayed Kaku with much closer strength to Lucci than Jyabura if he wanted to, but he didn't.

What other reason than to show that Zoro is much closer with Sanji than he is to Luffy. Doriki was just an easier way to show this.


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Sorry for the bad quotes. It didn't come out properly.



It'll take you like 2 seconds to fix it, lol.


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## Mike S (Mar 9, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The only evidence you've presented is the very first datebook from March 2, 2002. There has been 12 years of change since then. Every time line shown shows the relation to Zoro and Sanji. Not in a single one of those arcs are there any relations to Luffy and Zoro. Never once are they shown in tandem. Never did Zoro face a fighter close to Luffy. In every single one of those arcs, Sanji and Zoro have been hand and hand. If you feel so, I propose a challenge. Destroy our timeline, Using manga evidence, talk about or show Zoo and Luffy being more closely related in each step of the timeline. Show Zoro and Luffy being compared more than Sanji and Zoro. If that can be done, then it cast doubt on our argument. 




I presented a panel from the manga where Sanji himself, not only admits inferiority, he claims an opponent Luffy defeated is on another level from himself(). I've also shown manga evidence that portrays Luffy and Zoro as equals during that time(,,,). You claimed it was LG when Sanji became closer to Zoro, and I asked at what point between WP and LG did Sanji experience a higher growth rate that made up for the gap, that he himself admitted existed. Zoro had more fights during Arabasta - Skypiea than Sanji(I'll cite if necassary), so where did this growth spurt from Sanji come from. 

Not a single arc after Arabasta shows relation to Luffy, yet it shows to Sanji? I ask, what exactly do you mean when you say "relation". You made that statement without explaining yourself. If it means what I think it does, than I can assure you you're wrong. Luffy and Zoro has just as many team-ups as Zoro and Sanji after Arabasta.  

Logic 

*Spoiler*: __ 



This logic is not flawed. I did something with this argument that isn't being recipricated. I presented a panel from the manga. Zoro, from his Very mouth said this. If it is indeed flawed, please provide a manga panel that contradicts this. If your claim of my logic being flawed is to hold up, you must show where and what in the manga makes this flawed? As it stands it IS manga fact. Here's a question to solidify the point, in the manga we WITNESS the M3 grow every island and every Arc. So, why would Luffy suddenly stop because Zoro and Sanji aren't there? why would something we always accept as true when the rest of the crew is around suddenly stop when Luffy now made it to the hardest fights of his life? Please explain in manga detail how Zoro, on bed rest managed to keep up with Luffy who spent his entire time fighting?? How did the inactive man keep up?




How is it not flawed? We saw how much Luffy has grown in 3 islands from Arabasta to W7. Luffy faced some of the strongest characters during AL-MF and had his biggest test of willpower to date. That logic would mean he grew just as much as he did from Arabasta-W7, during AL-MF wouldn't it? Kidd and Law, as well as the rest of the Supernova's were stationed around SA sitting idle(As we seen during the war), while Luffy had his side-quest. Did these guys also fall behind? As I mentioned, gauging Luffy's growth rate during these arcs aren't as simple as you're suggesting. I see we will continue to go back and forth on this matter. 
Will 

*Spoiler*: __ 



From a kid Sanji has dreamed of the All Blue, he maintained that dream. How does he lack will? Instead of persuiring that dream, he worked with and stayed with the man who saved his life and helped that man build his dream, how does that lack resolve? As a child, he went 85 days without food compared to one month of adult Zoro. How is that lacking will? No matter the risk he refuses to lay hands on a woman how does that lack resolve? Then the two year traiing in hell. Those are all serious questions.



Again, you construct your argument as if I mentioned Sanji has no willpower at all. In our opening we stated Sanji strengthens his resolve over the course of the manga.Our point is, Oda has went out of his way to highlight Luffy and Zoro's willpowers. He placed both characters in situations where they needed tremendous willpower or it would cost them their lives. Sanji has yet to recieve a feat of this caliber, so on what basis can you place him with Luffy and Zoro? Oda has also shown Sanji himself say, if your ambition costs your life, then give it up(), while Luffy and Zoro has never lost ground in their beliefs. 

Roles

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Copy reply from Sabo question 5* Being a combatant isn't everything. A ship wright and musician are among the stronger in the crew. while the sniper who is a combatant is the weakest. A man who wants to be in a family was the strongest in the world. Another who only cared for adventure was another strongest in the world. Law is a doctor and Zeff is a Chef. A role means nothing in the eyes of strength.




In Luffy and Zoro's case it is. These guys *need* to reach a certain level in strength to reach their goals. Sanji isn't Law or Whitebeard, He doesn't have the same priveladges as they do. Whitebeard and Law are the *captains of their crew*. They have to be strong in order to protect their crew from outside threats. Whitebeards dream is to have a family, and he would do anything to protect his family. He even went to war with the WG for harming one crewmember and his crew mentioned the world knows the consequenses of harming one of his children. Law is a doctor, yes, but he is also a pirate captain who is aspiring to become PK. These guys have to be strong to accomplish/maintain their dreams. Sanji doesn't have that priveladge.


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> As of the beginning part of the series, Oda has shown Zoro and Lufy as equals in a whole chapter dedicated to their fight.



At that point, maybe. But the gap definitely widened, which you agree with so moving on. 




> As stated in datebook Red and in Whiskey Peak, we do think that at that point Zoro was very close to Luffy and basically is equal. Over the arcs, right where we hit EL, this equality was broken down with Luffy's use of the gears to push ahead of everybody and become stronger. Promptly after in Thriller Bark Zoro was able to move in closer with Shusui, and showed that he could take all of Luffy's gear stacking, and damage he received from the Moria fight.



Before I address the points in this quote I want to ask you a few questions.

During the time period where you believe Luffy and Zoro to be equal, how far away do you believe Sanji to be from them at that point?

How much stronger do you believe Luffy has gotten from Zoro during Enies Lobby after gaining his gears?

And you said that Zoro was able to move closer after gaining Shuisui. How much stronger do you think Zoro has gotten after gaining his new sword? And if Shuisui were to land in the hands of someone like Johny or Yosaku, how much stronger do you think that would make them?



> Though no specific evidence is given we can infer that Zoro would do better as he skirmished with an opponent that should be stronger than DD.



And Law and Sanji clashed with Doflamingo who is stronger than any opponent that Luffy has faced in this arc.

That's not enough to infer that Zoro would do better than Sanji in that situation considering the circumstances. In fact, considering it was a mid air battle, Zoro would do considerably worse if he were in Sanji's situation.



> More so in an sbs  Od stated that Zoro has better COA than Sanji. At first glance this wouldn't mean much but, with better COA the chances of something happening to Zoro's swords per se, is low. Sanji broke his leg against Vergo while the chances of anything happening to Zoro or his swords is minimal.



And also in that SBS it states that Sanji is more efficient in CoO. Considering Pica's ability makes it so you have to find and attack his real body which Zoro seems to be struggling with at the moment, Sanji would probably be a better match-up in that regard. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Zoro in any way, just that his style suits a certain fight better.

Yeah okay, considering Zoro uses a weapon to attack and has better CoA, he could probably perform better under the circumstances than Sanji who uses his actual body to attack. However that just means Zoro's fighting style suits that specific match-up more.



> Against DD with a free shot I could see Zoro at least scathing DD's feather coat. Zoro is a much more lethal fighter and giving him the opportunity that Sanji got would met likely help him reap better rests. While there is no exact "proof: for this argument there are unite a few factors that must be taken into account when putting 2 completely different characters with different fighting styles in a "what if" situation.



You seem to be forgetting where this match-up is taking place. Doflamingo was flying through the air with an entire sea of water below him, considering that and the fact that Doflamingo is extremely agile in the air, like I addressed before, I think it's safe to say that Zoro would in fact perform much less than Sanji did in that particular scenario, considering Sanji has a way to actually move around in the sky.

So to use the argument that Sanji has less portrayal because of the fact that he got GG'd by Doflamingo doesn't make much sense.



> And in portrayal Zoro fought an opponent that is likely stronger than DD. And Zoro came out of his exchange not with bandages
> He left with slight blood around his mouth
> We cannot say that Zoro didn't come out of his exchange looking better against a stronger opponent. Sanji did get parsed twice but one was by virtue of a sneak attack.



Zoro's clash with Fuji and Sanji's clash with Doflamingo are very different situations. And if you switched them you'd probably have the same results as well.

In Sanji's case he had to hold of Doflamingo who had full intention of murdering the entire crew. And he had to fight him in mid air and during that brief time period he was alone in that regard. Put Zoro in Sanji's shoes and he'd end up in bandages as well, especially considering he has no maneuverability in the air.

In Zoro's case, his clash with Fujitora was just that a "clash". Zoro was aiming for Doflamingo and Fujitora blocked. He then gravity crushed him and after that he simply left the scene, and considering Zoro tanked it without any lasting injuries, I don't see how Sanji, a fellow M3 member, couldn't do the same.

As far as portrayal goes, Sanji's not exactly lacking in that regard. Big Mom's pirate ship attacked them and with full confidence and a smile on his face, he asked his captain whether he could return fire, and Luffy trusted him completely giving him his ok.

And yeah, we don't know whether Big Mom is on board or not, but neither do they, but Sanji decided to strike back anyway with a smile on his face I might add.

So I don't see how that's any less impressive than Zoro clashing with Fujitora.



> Both's fights got interrupted but when Zoro's did, he wasn't about to get low diffed.



Wait, you're saying that if Zoro's fight with a *Marine Admiral* didn't get interrupted, he wouldn't get low diffed?


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 9, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Team Luffy/Zoro, may I ask why you feel Hody, Hyozu, and Monet were worth mentioning? Hody was fodder to the M3 before and after his transformation. IIRC, in his encounter with Luffy, Hyozu only blocked one blow from Luffy, at a distance, when Luffy wasn't serious and attacking multiple opponents. When Luffy was serious, he wiped the floor with Drugged Hody, an opponent far stronger than Base Hyozu, and Drugged Hyozu was beaten by Zoro without much trouble. Luffy was mainly having trouble with Monet due to CIS, and at the end of the day, Monet wasn't really a threat to the M3 either. Zoro wasn't even the one who KOed her, Monet went down in one hit from Tashigi.



Hyouzou has been hyped by Oda through Luffy. ()
Hyouzou then proceeds to power-up only to get beaten almost effortlessly by Zoro.

Hody was the main villain of the FI arc. Zoro beat him mid way through the arc in a battle under water. Another Strawhat than Luffy beating the main villain of an arc in an environment where said villain is stronger is unusual.

When Monet hugged Luffy he chose to flee by breaking the floor instead of fighting her and how beastly Zoro was in his fight against her everyone still should be aware of.

Once more for clarification: This is not about feats. Those fights indirectly compared Zoro and Luffy and Zoro never looked bad in those comparisons. Hence those fights are portrayal in favor of Zoro being closer to Luffy.


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## Shanks (Mar 9, 2014)

@ Team Sanji/Zoro, I notice that no one responded to UJ's main rebuttal to your opening yet.

*Spoiler*: __ 





Unclear Justice said:


> You have to consider what exactly happened in those situations.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Crocodile_
> ...






I am also looking forward to further rebuttal to ♦Young Master♦ & The Pirate Hunter 2nd last and 3rd last post from this post tomorrow.

Cheers,


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 9, 2014)

BartholomewKuma said:


> UJ Haki
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



You misunderstood the part you quoted here.

We don?t know how exactly Luffy?s and Zoro?s training looked like. For that reason a direct comparison based on the content of their trainings can?t be made. The comparison that can be made is the comparison of potential those trainings had based on the persons in charge of them.

You say that in those 2 years Sanji constantly fought people stronger than him. Something similar could have happened on Rusukaina and Kuraigana if Rayleigh and Mihawk thought this would be the best in order for Luffy and Zoro to become stronger. They could have chased and pushed them all day long if they wanted. The question is if this is the best thing to do or not. If they thought that there are better methods to train then they used them. Those two have enough experience to know what?s important and it was in their interest that Luffy and Zoro become as strong as possible.

This is why the potential of Luffy?s and Zoro?s training was higher than that of Sanji.



> There is no evidence that Zoro as much of a separated gap from Sanji. However, arc to arc, we are able to demonstrate how close and related Sanji and Zoro are and how Luffy pulls ahead of both of them. After time skip. The first two combat scenes had Zoro and Sanji step in step matching each other. Zoro handily beat the beast swordsman who was drugged. Sanji casually kicked about and set on fire the largest person next to San Juan wolf. That requires tremendous power to kick and amazing amount of flames to burn in an instant.



How do those feats compare and why? 



> Zoro did take the Dragon's head.  But, Brook and Kinemon beat the more durable dragon. Just shows you needed a sword to beat one.



You just need a sword? That is too simple. You also need good stats, otherwise Random Marine Solider #27683 would beat those dragons. The fight against the big dragon showcased how lethal Zoro?s post-skip moves are (S5 in this case to be exact). And since the cuts that Kinemon and Brook did are significantly smaller than the cut Zoro did it doesn?t mean they could replicate what Zoro did even if the small dragon is more durable.



> Sanji fought the strongest man on the island. Luffy fought the second strongest on PH. Many love to say Sanji lost but no. He didn't In a head to head fight, Vergo wasn't able to land an attac on Sanji. His only damage came from choosing to block instead of dodge. This is all while the smoke is pouring in and he still saved two soldiers with a skywalk after. Zoro fought Monet. not a week person but this is the comparison of of the Elite Suites and the officers.




These are all panels of Sanji vs Vergo: ,,,,,,

Over the course of their fight Vergo received a bloody nose and some scratches while Sanji?s leg was fractured, which is clearly a far worse injury especially if you use your legs to attack and defend. 

During their fight Vergo didn?t use his bamboo, didn?t use Rokushiki and didn?t use Hardening meaning he clearly acted below his possibilities in offense and defense. Nonetheless Sanji only could do minor damage to him with his DJ techniques.

If we also take into consideration what Sanji thought after their fight () we see that what happened there by no means is something positive for Sanji. 



> On DR there was the short exchanges with Fujitora and Dolamingo. Neither one did good nor bad but it was not shown that either one outdoes the other as always.



What was shown is that Sanji was helpless against Doflamingo and that Zoro was able to oppose Fujitora?s attack.


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

Sabo said:


> @ Team Sanji/Zoro, I notice that no one responded to UJ's main rebuttal to your opening yet.
> 
> 
> I am also looking forward to further rebuttal to ♦Young Master♦ & The Pirate Hunter 2nd last and 3rd last post from this post tomorrow.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





> And considering that, I do believe Zoro to be stronger than Sanji(slightly so, but stronger nonetheless) so he would obviously get the better opponents and the better portrayal than Sanji would.
> 
> For example, him fighting Mr. 1 with Sanji fighting Mr. 2. And Zoro fighting Kaku who had a slightly better Doriki than Jyabura who Sanji fought, etc.
> 
> ...





♦Young Master♦ said:


> Oda introduced these numbers for a reason. What other purpose would he have for bringing Doriki into play than to show the strength differences between the CP9? (which for the most part have been consistent in that Rob Lucci >> Kaku > Jabra >> Blueno, etc.)
> 
> Oda gave fights to Zoro and Sanji, having them fight Kaku and Jabra who had very closely related Doriki(again, Oda made them close for a reason), which both won with around the same difficulty, while giving Luffy a fight with the man who had twice that amount(and again, Oda made it that way for a reason), who obviously barely won by the skin of his teeth.
> 
> ...







All my post keep getting ignored.


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## Mike S (Mar 9, 2014)

To the judges - I may not be as active, in this thread today. I have work and a paper to finish. I will keep my answers brief, and in some cases, hold them in until I have more time to explain.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Oda introduced these numbers for a reason. What other purpose would he have for bringing Doriki into play than to show the strength differences between the CP9? (which for the most part have been consistent in that Rob Lucci >> Kaku > Jabra >> Blueno, etc.)
> 
> Oda gave fights to Zoro and Sanji, having them fight Kaku and Jabra who had very closely related Doriki(again, Oda made them close for a reason), which both won with around the same difficulty, while giving Luffy a fight with the man who had twice that amount(and again, Oda made it that way for a reason), who obviously barely won by the skin of his teeth.
> 
> But you can see how Zoro and Sanji are portrayed together with each other this arc, right? Oda could've very easily portrayed Kaku with much closer strength to Lucci than Jyabura if he wanted to, but he didn't.



Eneis Lobby was the arc that introduced Luffy's gears. The gears were Luffy's resolve as captain so of course, he was portrayed to stand ahead of his crew this arc. Kaku and Jyabura may have been close in douroki, but as I mentioned before, gauging strength by your opponents douriki is much more complicated. 

But for the sake of argument lets say Zoro and Sanji recieved portrayal on par with each other, during EL, did Zoro not pull away during TB?
-Zoro had a tougher opponent than Sanji(Ryuuma)(gained more experience)
-They both fought Oz (both gained experience)
-Zoro recieved another power-up after receiving a power-up the arc before. 
- And he recieved one of his best portrayals to date

Did Oda not show an increase in the gap between Zoro and Sanji during TB?


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## monkey d ace (Mar 9, 2014)

@team zoro/sanji
-i want to see ur rebuttal to sanji v vergo in UJ's post.

@team zoro/luffy
-about  zoro pulling ahead of sanji in TB because he had better fights(experience) power-ups(shusui) portrotal(his sacrifice), if by this zoro pulled ahead of sanji, then what luffy had in amazon lily/ID/MF arcs is incomparable when it comes to getting experience(fights), he also managed to combine G2/G3 in TB(power-up) and luffy always have been the best in terms of portrayel. so shouldn't this mean luffy pulled ahead of zoro way more than zoro pulled ahead of sanji, going off by this logic?


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> I presented a panel from the manga where Sanji himself, not only admits inferiority, he claims an opponent Luffy defeated is on another level from himself().



He's talking about the difference between Arlong and the other fishmen.



> I've also shown manga evidence that portrays Luffy and Zoro as equals during that time(,,,). You claimed it was LG when Sanji became closer to Zoro, and I asked at what point between WP and LG did Sanji experience a higher growth rate that made up for the gap, that he himself admitted existed. Zoro had more fights during Arabasta - Skypiea than Sanji(I'll cite if necassary), so where did this growth spurt from Sanji come from.



You're misunderstanding our argument. What we said is yeah, there's certain points that portray Zoro and Luffy together during Whiskey Peak, etc but after that point is where Oda's portrayal of Luffy/Zoro has switched to Zoro/Sanji. We're not saying that Sanji received a magical power up, but rather a difference of focus from the author.

Also Nami has more fights than Robin. Make of that what you will.



> Not a single arc after Arabasta shows relation to Luffy, yet it shows to Sanji? I ask, what exactly do you mean when you say "relation". You made that statement without explaining yourself. If it means what I think it does, than I can assure you you're wrong. Luffy and Zoro has just as many team-ups as Zoro and Sanji after Arabasta.



Your team admitted that Sanji and Zoro's rivalry go beyond gags, I'd like to hear you elaborate on that.

Also to further explain Little Garden. Sanji and Zoro's rivalry was directly correlated with Dorry and Broggy for a purpose. Two rivals who fought each other tooth in nail, not being far from strength from the other. This is another indication shown by Oda to illustrate Sanji's closeness with Zoro.

And then after that we have Alabasta where Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 are portrayed as very close to each other with neither one getting the best of the other during their initial clash and introduction together. [] [] [] []

Each of them being Zoro and Sanji's final opponents with Luffy taking on a much stronger Crocodile. Again whether Zoro could've done the same considering the circumstances is besides the point. If Oda wanted to portray here that Luffy and Zoro are closely related with Sanji a step behind, he could've very easily taken creative liberties and made Mr.1 closer in strength to Crocodile and could've easily have had Daz come out the better of his clash with Mr.2, but he didn't.

Zoro and Sanji were portrayed together during this arc much more so than Luffy and Zoro. This is something you can't ignore.

And again in Water 7/Enies Lobby we have the duo fighting against Jyabura and Kaku who were portrayed as very close to each other with them being defeated by Zoro and Sanji with around the same difficulty. Note that Jyabura and Kaku have a very similar rivalry that seems to contrast with the one Zoro and Sanji share. Again, this wasn't done for no reason.

Then we have Rob Lucci who was a step above the Jyabura and Kaku who Luffy fought and defeated. So again we have Zoro and Sanji being directly correlated with each other with Luffy being shown a step ahead.



> Again, you construct your argument as if I mentioned Sanji has no willpower at all. In our opening we stated Sanji strengthens his resolve over the course of the manga.Our point is, Oda has went out of his way to highlight Luffy and Zoro's willpowers. He placed both characters in situations where they needed tremendous willpower or it would cost them their lives. Sanji has yet to recieve a feat of this caliber, so on what basis can you place him with Luffy and Zoro? Oda has also shown Sanji himself say, if your ambition costs your life, then give it up(), while Luffy and Zoro has never lost ground in their beliefs.



Will Power =/= strength. I'll just copy and paste what I responded to Sabo with.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> One thing I'd like to mention is that Will Power and Resolve correlating directly with strength is something that I disagree with heavily.
> 
> Portgas D. Rouge had absolutely incredible will power, being able to hold her baby for 20 months to protect him is definitely nothing to scoff at.
> 
> ...






So that whole entire argument is pointless.




> In Luffy and Zoro's case it is. These guys *need* to reach a certain level in strength to reach their goals. Sanji isn't Law or Whitebeard, He doesn't have the same priveladges as they do. Whitebeard and Law are the *captains of their crew*. They have to be strong in order to protect their crew from outside threats. Whitebeards dream is to have a family, and he would do anything to protect his family. He even went to war with the WG for harming one crewmember and his crew mentioned the world knows the consequenses of harming one of his children. Law is a doctor, yes, but he is also a pirate captain who is aspiring to become PK. These guys have to be strong to accomplish/maintain their dreams. Sanji doesn't have that priveladge.



As a member of the M3 which is the core strength of the Straw Hat Pirates, yes Sanji _needs_ to be strong. 

And if you want to bring dreams/goals into this then yes, Whitebeard is relevant. His dream is simply to have a family. He doesn't _need_ to be the strongest man alive to have that and any respectable pirate in this series would want to protect their crew in any way possible. Sanji would give his life and go to war for any of his crew mates just the same.

Even look at Marco or Jozu. They don't have these great ambitions of the likes of being the Pirate King or being the World's Strongest Swordsman, but they are amongst one of the strongest characters in the series.


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Enies Lobby was the arc that introduced Luffy's gears. The gears were Luffy's resolve as captain so of course, he was portrayed to stand ahead of his crew this arc. Kaku and Jyabura may have been close in douroki, but as I mentioned before, gauging strength by your opponents douriki is much more complicated.



Doriki measures physical strength. These are characters that rely on physical strength. 

Like I said before, Oda made these two characters with near equal doriki for a reason. What other reason than to show the closeness between these two characters in relation to strength. Especially considering their rivalry together that directly contrast with the one Zoro and Sanji shared, you can see what Oda's trying to do here.



> But for the sake of argument lets say Zoro and Sanji recieved portrayal on par with each other, during EL, did Zoro not pull away during TB?
> -Zoro had a tougher opponent than Sanji(Ryuuma)(gained more experience)
> -They both fought Oz (both gained experience)



Wait, your argument against Kuma was on the basis that just because Luffy had more fights during Amazon Lily/Impel Down/Marineford, doesn't mean he's gotten stronger or pulled ahead, right? But now you're making that same argument here. 

So if Zoro got more fight experience and in consequence got stronger, than why can't that same logic be applied to Luffy pulling ahead during the Whitebeard War saga?



> -Zoro recieved another power-up after receiving a power-up the arc before.
> -And he recieved one of his best portrayals to date
> 
> Did Oda not show an increase in the gap between Zoro and Sanji during TB?



First of all, you'd have to assume that Zoro gaining Shusui is comparable to the level of strength increase that Luffy gained by acquiring gears, which I heavily disagree with. 

There is no indication that Zoro got a significant increase after gaining Shuisui. If there is, please show me with manga evidence of Zoro doing anything with his new sword that he couldn't do before. And please show me this significant increase that he's gotten, because surely if this was his power up moment, Oda would've shown the difference.

If you can't show me this significant strength increase than I'm just going to assume Zoro gaining Shuisui's sword was for aesthetic and symbolic reasons and to also connect him with the upcoming Wano Arc and not necessarily to indicate that he pulled ahead or powered up significantly during that moment.

And Zoro, as the first mate, taking his Captain's burden was shown for more symbolic reasons and for his development as a character, able to throw away his great ambition that he's been striving for as a kid, for his captain's sake.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

> During the time period where you believe Luffy and Zoro to be equal, how far away do you believe Sanji to be from them at that point?



Sanji wasn't that far away as we believe that the dynamics of the Monster Trio were either high or extreme diff fights. Sanji wasn't that far away but the gap was noticeable. Hence our Arlong argument. 




> How much stronger do you believe Luffy has gotten from Zoro during Enies Lobby after gaining his gears?



After the gears we think that Luffy was able to pull ahead of Zoro so instead of the higher end of high diff it would be solid high diff, but Thriller Bark made us think that Zoro was able to claw his way slowly back to the higher end of high diff. 



> And you said that Zoro was able to move closer after gaining Shuisui. How much stronger do you think Zoro has gotten after gaining his new sword? And if Shuisui were to land in the hands of someone like Johny or Yosaku, how much stronger do you think that would make them?



After getting that new sword I can't really say how much stronger he got, because its not like we get power level memo's from Oda, but he was able to get by some amount stronger, as this sword was almost unbreakable, and he thanked Ryuuma for it. If it was just some random sword praising it is useless. 





> And Law and Sanji clashed with Doflamingo who is stronger than any opponent that Luffy has faced in this arc.



You see, we can't just add in Luffy to here because we have not seen him fight someone close to him. And that same man that those two fought, is going down one way or another by Luffy. BUt that's irrelevant to this. 




> That's not enough to infer that Zoro would do better than Sanji in that situation considering the circumstances. In fact, considering it was a mid air battle, Zoro would do considerably worse if he were in Sanji's situation.



While I do agree that is a good point. If Zoro sended up a 360 pound canon DD would alert and try to fight Zoro, whether on the ship or on the remains of Green Bit. 





> And also in that SBS it states that Sanji is more efficient in CoO. Considering Pica's ability makes it so you have to find and attack his real body which Zoro seems to be struggling with at the moment, Sanji would probably be a better match-up in that regard. That doesn't mean he's stronger than Zoro in any way, just that his style suits a certain fight better.



While that is true that Sanji would ave a better time fighting him, I think that hitting him won't be so easy. I think ODa left him with someone efficient in COA for a reason. 


[/quote]Yeah okay, considering Zoro uses a weapon to attack and has better CoA, he could probably perform better under the circumstances than Sanji who uses his actual body to attack. However that just means Zoro's fighting style suits that specific match-up more.





> Don't get me wrong, Sanji could take down Pica whom I think is around their level but Zoro would do better against DD, but Fuji is a toss up and I will elaborate on that later.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

Sorry for the long post judges and readers/YM.


----------



## Kuma (Mar 9, 2014)

*TPH* 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> I presented a panel from the manga where Sanji himself, not only admits inferiority, he claims an opponent Luffy defeated is on another level from himself(1). I've also shown manga evidence that portrays Luffy and Zoro as equals during that time(1,2,3,4). You claimed it was LG when Sanji became closer to Zoro, and I asked at what point between WP and LG did Sanji experience a higher growth rate that made up for the gap, that he himself admitted existed. Zoro had more fights during Arabasta - Skypiea than Sanji(I'll cite if necassary), so where did this growth spurt from Sanji come from.
> 
> Not a single arc after Arabasta shows relation to Luffy, yet it shows to Sanji? I ask, what exactly do you mean when you say "relation". You made that statement without explaining yourself. If it means what I think it does, than I can assure you you're wrong. Luffy and Zoro has just as many team-ups as Zoro and Sanji after Arabasta.






Sir, again, this is the New World. The one example you gave is from Arlong Park. This precedes your datebook red argument. The date book that shows Sanji as only one marking level in strength behind Zoro. And, it's farrrrr before everything else in the story. So, since the east blue, nothing like that has ever happened. Why is it relevant when your own argument with the datebook shows just how close they are. They fought once at Whiskey Peak and since then, I've shown how in almost every arc Zoro and Sanji are close. 

In Alabasta i clearly showed Luffy fighting the superior fighter while Sanji and Zoro fought number one and 2 as they always do.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> How is it not flawed? We saw how much Luffy has grown in 3 islands from Arabasta to W7. Luffy faced some of the strongest characters during AL-MF and had his biggest test of willpower to date. That logic would mean he grew just as much as he did from Arabasta-W7, during AL-MF wouldn't it? Kidd and Law, as well as the rest of the Supernova's were stationed around SA sitting idle(As we seen during the war), while Luffy had his side-quest. Did these guys also fall behind? As I mentioned, gauging Luffy's growth rate during these arcs aren't as simple as you're suggesting. I see we will continue to go back and forth on this matter.
> Will






I don't recall ever saying to quantify how much they grew. I don't recall Zoro in the panal saying there is  a way to measure the growth. What do such superfluous things have to do with anything? Nothing about it says measure or try to. Zoro said they grow stonger every stop even if they don't notice it. Every island means every island. Just becaue you can't use your scuter to measure by how much, in the manga it clearly says it happens which give Luffy a huge advantage. Give me a panel that proves Zoro incorrect.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Again, you construct your argument as if I mentioned Sanji has no willpower at all. In our opening we stated Sanji strengthens his resolve over the course of the manga.Our point is, Oda has went out of his way to highlight Luffy and Zoro's willpowers. He placed both characters in situations where they needed tremendous willpower or it would cost them their lives. Sanji has yet to recieve a feat of this caliber, so on what basis can you place him with Luffy and Zoro? Oda has also shown Sanji himself say, if your ambition costs your life, then give it up(1), while Luffy and Zoro has never lost ground in their beliefs.






Here's something   
 I can keep going If you'd like but please tell me again how Sanji won't risk his life for his crew or beliefs. Or should  keep posting?


*Spoiler*: __ 





> In Luffy and Zoro's case it is. These guys need to reach a certain level in strength to reach their goals. Sanji isn't Law or Whitebeard, He doesn't have the same priveladges as they do. Whitebeard and Law are the captains of their crew. They have to be strong in order to protect their crew from outside threats. Whitebeards dream is to have a family, and he would do anything to protect his family. He even went to war with the WG for harming one crewmember and his crew mentioned the world knows the consequenses of harming one of his children. Law is a doctor, yes, but he is also a pirate captain who is aspiring to become PK. These guys have to be strong to accomplish/maintain their dreams. Sanji doesn't have that priveladge.






Sanji isn't Law or WB he's sanji. A perverted cook who fr some reason can keep up with Zoro and Luffy despite not being a go had trainer. No matter how much you want to talk about roles, there are people in all kinds of roles who ae still powerful. Sanj is one.Preach about Zoro all day and no matter what Sanji is right behind him


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Sanji wasn't that far away as we believe that the dynamics of the Monster Trio were either high or extreme diff fights. Sanji wasn't that far away but the gap was noticeable. Hence our Arlong argument.
> 
> After the gears we think that Luffy was able to pull ahead of Zoro so instead of the higher end of high diff it would be solid high diff, but Thriller Bark made us think that Zoro was able to claw his way slowly back to the higher end of high diff.
> 
> After getting that new sword I can't really say how much stronger he got, because its not like we get power level memo's from Oda, but he was able to get by some amount stronger, as this sword was almost unbreakable, and he thanked Ryuuma for it. If it was just some random sword praising it is useless.



So you believe that Luffy pulled ahead during Water 7/Enies Lobby, but Zoro was able to close that gap again during Thriller Bark. That would mean that you also believe that Zoro gaining Shuisui is comparable to that of Luffy gaining gears, right?

I'm going to need evidence of this. I'm going to repost what I wrote to TPH.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> First of all, you'd have to assume that Zoro gaining Shusui is comparable to the level of strength increase that Luffy gained by acquiring gears, which I heavily disagree with.
> 
> There is no indication that Zoro got a significant increase after gaining Shuisui. If there is, please show me with manga evidence of Zoro doing anything with his new sword that he couldn't do before. And please show me this significant increase that he's gotten, because surely if this was his power up moment, Oda would've shown the difference.
> 
> If you can't show me this significant strength increase than I'm just going to assume Zoro gaining Shuisui's sword was for aesthetic and symbolic reasons and to also connect him with the upcoming Wano Arc and not necessarily to indicate that he pulled ahead or powered up significantly during that moment.








> You see, we can't just add in Luffy to here because we have not seen him fight someone close to him. And that same man that those two fought, is going down one way or another by Luffy. BUt that's irrelevant to this.



Your argument was that Zoro clashing with a stronger opponent means that he'd have a better time against DD, than Sanji did.

But that's not great logic. Because that's discounting the circumstances and scenario's surrounding the events.

By that logic, since Luffy fought Chinjao, Zoro fought Fujitora, and Sanji fought DD, that would mean that Zoro > Sanji > Luffy, which isn't the case.

And yeah, we know that Luffy's gonna fight DD but he's not going to fight Fujitora as far as we know, and again going by your logic since Zoro clashed with an opponent much stronger DD that would also mean that Zoro is stronger than Luffy.



> While I do agree that is a good point. If Zoro sended up a 360 pound canon DD would alert and try to fight Zoro, whether on the ship or on the remains of Green Bit.



But Sanji wasn't on Green Bit, assuming Zoro is in the same situation as Sanji, he'd have to start in Dressrosa ,which would require a pretty long ass air slash which like you said would alert DD. And at that distance, I'm sure Doflamingo wouldn't have any problem dodging it, and we've seen through the flashbacks how far Doflamingo's parasites extend and we've seen how far his Overkill's range is, so I don't think its fair to say that Zoro would do a better job in Sanji's situation than Sanji himself.



> While that is true that Sanji would have a better time fighting him, I think that hitting him won't be so easy. I think ODa left him with someone efficient in COA for a reason.



Well considering Pica is a rock castle, I don't think durability is going to be an issue here.



> Don't get me wrong, Sanji could take down Pica whom I think is around their level but Zoro would do better against DD, but Fuji is a toss up and I will elaborate on that later.



Explained this above.



> I believe it does. Wile I wasn't thinking much of match ups before, I could just as easily pull in power level. Sani fought an opponent in the air which was a place Sanji became fond off in Kamabakka kingdom. Zoro fought Fuji and other than they were swordsmen, Zoro could fly out of the hole, yet he still got out. He wasn't the best match up when facing Fuji yet didn't get insta wrecked.



While I think you bring good points, I think your argument is not without bias and a desperate attempt to downplay Sanji here.

Like I said, these situations are very different in nature. Fujitora was on the defensive, his objective was to stop Zoro from attacking Doflamingo, nothing more nothing less. He left the scene as soon as he did so.

Doflamingo was on the attack, his objective was to murder the Straw Hats a long with Sanji who got in his way. If Fujitora's objective was to kill Zoro and Kinemon, I'm pretty sure Zoro would be more than banged up after the encounter.



> How would the results change for Zoro? He uses the clouds for his strings and if Zoro is under the shade of the ship how will DD use any of his moves



Why would Zoro be on the ship?



> I'm pretty sure Zoro is better at swordplay than Law. Whom blocked DD's string attack with ease. X While Sanji had no where o good block the attack, Zoro has is swords to block any such attempt like exhausted mind you Law did.



Sanji has good maneuverability in the air, he could probably dodge the attack. But that's not the problem here. Overkill was combined with Parasite, making the target unable to even move. The only person in the manga so far that we've seen able to counter Parasite is Law who we can assume has knowledge on the ability.

Zoro's not blocking anything when his arms are spread out, not able to move.




> After the gravity crushed him he sent up a no name slash that Fuji said was brutal. Then he left. That's a crucial part that you left out on.



I don't see how that's crucial. Zoro sent a no named attack which Fuji commented was strong. 

Sanji has no named, casual strong attacks as well.

I don't see how what Zoro did in that clash was anything Sanji couldn't replicate in his own way.



> That's courage. If we want to use that as portrayal Marineford Luffy s near Admiral level since he had no problem facing all of them. That's more so a feat of courage. Yet if BM is on that ship. portrayal won't be helping him.
> 
> Pretty much the M3, and Franky would have smiles on their faces. Though they know if they actually tried to take the Yonkou crew it's over for them.



You're misunderstanding my argument. No where am I saying that Sanji is Admiral level because of this. Just like Zoro's not admiral level because of his clash with Fuji.

But Oda gave Zoro a clash with Fujitora and matched that with giving Sanji a clash with Big Mom's ship. This was no accident, as it happened in the same exact chapter. So Sanji doesn't fall behind in that regard.



> How about I put it this way: Zoro clashed with Fuji then went into the hole, struck back. Fuji blocked and praised him then left. Zoro did not use any named move.
> 
> Sanji sneak attacks DD. DD parses him. He goes for another attack, DD dodges. DD then attacks and injures Sanji. Sanji attacks DD, DD praises him and DD traps him in Parasite.
> 
> In these encounters. Zoro did not get a sneak attack, or used any named moves. I never said that it wouldn't be a low diff fight, but from what we saw Fuji would at least would have had to become some what serious to block Zoro's named and strong techs while Sanji used 1 non named attack, and a new move that was named. Zoro got praise from a non named attack while Sanji got parsed for a named attack. Which sounds more impressive?



Mentioned this above. Different scenarios. You're comparing apples with oranges here.

That's like saying Usopp is stronger than Franky because he made Luffy bleed and Franky didn't when they fought at W7, or that Zoro is stronger than Luffy who struggled against Monet for a bit when Zoro one shotted her with ease. You can't make these kinda assumptions without taking in consideration the mindsets and situations that these events took place in.

And I'm pretty sure if Fujitora had it in his mind to kill Zoro right then and there, he'd be dead whether he used a named attack or not.

In Sanji's fight, there was more going on and had more at stake than Zoro's clash of swords with Fujitora who's main goal was just to stop Zoro's assault on Doflamingo.

And like I said, Zoro wouldn't have performed any better than Sanji did against Doflamingo, who's main goal was to murder everyone there.


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## Magician (Mar 9, 2014)

I love how Dr. White just posted the opening and gtfo'd, lol.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

> So you believe that Luffy pulled ahead during Water 7/Enies Lobby, but Zoro was able to close that gap again during Thriller Bark. That would mean that you also believe that Zoro gaining Shuisui is comparable to that of Luffy gaining gears, right?



And the fact that he proved his tanking ability is incredibly strong by the remarks and the Luffy pain argument. 





> Your argument was that Zoro clashing with a stronger opponent means that he'd have a better time against DD, than Sanji did.



Wrong. Our argument is that Zoro was *portrayed* better that Sanji against a better opponent. 

By that logic, since Luffy fought Chinjao, Zoro fought Fujitora, and Sanji fought DD, that would mean that Zoro > Sanji > Luffy, which isn't the case.

Your not using what I said. I said that we can *infer*, that Zoro is considerably stronger by clashing with someone stronger and looking better while Luffy had a complete fight, where he looked better most the whole time. Zoro and Sanji's fights were incomplete. Hence we have to infer. While Luffy's fights is complete so your twisting what were saying to work with an agenda we never proposed. 




> And yeah, we know that Luffy's gonna fight DD but he's not going to fight Fujitora as far as we know, and again going by your logic since Zoro clashed with an opponent much stronger DD that would also mean that Zoro is stronger than Luffy.



I admitted that Zoro was going to get low diffed so this point is moot.





> But Sanji wasn't on Green Bit, assuming Zoro is in the same situation as Sanji, he'd have to start in Dressrosa ,which would require a pretty long ass air slash which like you said would alert DD. And at that distance, I'm sure Doflamingo wouldn't have any problem dodging it, and we've seen through the flashbacks how far Doflamingo's parasites extend and we've seen how far his Overkill's range is, so I don't think its fair to say that Zoro would do a better job in Sanji's situation than Sanji himself.



Green Bit isn't a good place. Sorry about that. If he was on the ship and Zoro can move fast in burst speeds, he could block Overheat as Law did quite easily. If he was in Law's range he could keep Zoro airborne for a certain amount of time. 





> Well considering Pica is a rock castle, I don't think durability is going to be an issue here.


I'm not going to debate this as it's off topic. 





> While I think you bring good points, I think your argument is not without bias and a desperate attempt to downplay Sanji here.


Zoro and Sani are 2 of my favourite characters and sometimes they even switch spots depending on my mood. I'm not trying to downplay Sanji at all. I even admit he could beat Pica. It's just that I could switch that argument around on you and say you guys are downplaying Zoro and hyping Luffy. There's no point in using such a shaky argument. Wouldn't you agree? 





> Like I said, these situations are very different in nature. Fujitora was on the defensive, his objective was to stop Zoro from attacking Doflamingo, nothing more nothing less. He left the scene as soon as he did so.



If he was totally on the defensive he wouldn't have sunk Zoro. 





> Doflamingo was on the attack, his objective was to murder the Straw Hats a long with Sanji who got in his way. If Fujitora's objective was to kill Zoro and Kinemon, I'm pretty sure Zoro would be more than banged up after the encounter.



Don't understand what you're getting at here. 





> Why would Zoro be on the ship?



He was going to do exactly what you just said. Murder the Straw Hats. 





> Sanji has good maneuverability in the air, he could probably dodge the attack. But that's not the problem here. Overkill was combined with Parasite, making the target unable to even move. The only person in the manga so far that we've seen able to counter Parasite is Law who we can assume has knowledge on the ability.



I am well aware of that but if he could parasite on the ship, the SH's would be gone but they aren't. 






> Zoro's not blocking anything when his arms are spread out, not able to move.



But he surely is blocking five coloured strings. 






> I don't see how that's crucial. Zoro sent a no named attack which Fuji commented was strong.



But isn't that going agasint the opening that your teammate posted when he stated that DD praised Sani while you guys leave out that Fuji praised Zoro? That's being incredibly subjective of what you guys want to state and what the manga shows.




> Sanji has no named, casual strong attacks as well.



Still doesn't change the fact that Zoro used a no name attack that Daishinkan is most likely stronger than "flying slash". 




> I don't see how what Zoro did in that clash was anything Sanji couldn't replicate in his own way.



After in the hole he'd just jump out as he doesn't have long range attacks but I understand what you're saying. 




> You're misunderstanding my argument. No where am I saying that Sanji is Admiral level because of this. Just like Zoro's not admiral level because of his clash with Fuji.



Great. So we both agree here. 




> But Oda gave Zoro a clash with Fujitora and matched that with giving Sanji a clash with Big Mom's ship. This was no accident, as it happened in the same exact chapter. So Sanji doesn't fall behind in that regard.



We have yet to see who Sanji is fighting. If he clashed with BM then his feat could be even better that Zoro's but we have no seen whom he's clashing, fighting with of even if he's not unconscious or lost a fight. 


Mentioned this above. Different scenarios. You're comparing apples with oranges here.

In match ups yes. In other regard I don't see how. 




> That's like saying Usopp is stronger than Franky because he made Luffy bleed and Franky didn't when they fought at W7, or that Zoro is stronger than Luffy who struggled against Monet for a bit when Zoro one shotted her with ease. You can't make these kinda assumptions without taking in consideration the mindsets and situations that these events took place in.



I'm not addressing Usopp as the reason is simple (blunt force vs snap objects) and it's irrelevant to this. 



> And I'm pretty sure if Fujitora had it in his mind to kill Zoro right then and there, he'd be dead whether he used a named attack or not.



And the same was going to happen to Sanji. 




> In Sanji's fight, there was more going on and had more at stake than Zoro's clash of swords with Fujitora who's main goal was just to stop Zoro's assault on Doflamingo.



Yet in those chapters Sanji got sidelined and Law took over so...




> And like I said, Zoro wouldn't have performed any better than Sanji did against Doflamingo, who's main goal was to murder everyone there.



You didn't answer my last question directly. To answer yours: blocking 5 coloured strings then losing>getting hit by 5 coloured strings, and getting bandages for the cut and losing.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> I love how Dr. White just posted the opening and gtfo'd, lol.



He probably is extremely busy as I have not seen him post out of the debate threads.


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## Kuma (Mar 9, 2014)

*UJ*


*Spoiler*: __ 





> You misunderstood the part you quoted here.
> 
> We don?t know how exactly Luffy?s and Zoro?s training looked like. For that reason a direct comparison based on the content of their trainings can?t be made. The comparison that can be made is the comparison of potential those trainings had based on the persons in charge of them.
> 
> ...






There is absolutely no portrayl. In the manga, there is no indication at all that their training was higher to Sanji. Thus far Sanji has clashed with the strongest people and still shown in the M3. That's all there is. regardless of what the training was, there is no manga panel that shows or says anything about how strong they've become. The M3 were Complimented on power TS by Sentamaru, Nami, Doflamingo, Fujitora, Monet, Tashigi and G5. All spoke about them as a group or individual. But never one highlighted over the others. Any portrayal about the training is from the fans and fans only not the manga.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> How do those feats compare and why?





they compare in the sense that it only took each Zoro and Sanji two attacks to defeat their opponent. Only difference is one was a  drugged up swordsman and the other wasa drugged up giant larger than any giant. One doesn't put the other ahead in any power unless we get into the physics of a giant and I doubt that's happening


*Spoiler*: __ 





> You just need a sword? That is too simple. You also need good stats, otherwise Random Marine Solider #27683 would beat those dragons. The fight against the big dragon showcased how lethal Zoro?s post-skip moves are (S5 in this case to be exact). And since the cuts that Kinemon and Brook did are significantly smaller than the cut Zoro did it doesn?t mean they could replicate what Zoro did even if the small dragon is more durable.






Too simple? Dragon A was killed by a sword. Blunt attacks didn't work. Dragon B was defeated by swords as well. Dragon B was the more durable and more aggressive between the two. Dagon B was defeated by Brook and Kinemon. Luffy is stronger than both of them but his blunt attacks didn't work. But against the stronger one, swords from weaker people beat the stronger Dragon. That's a huge indication that sharp weapon was the true difference. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> These are all panels of Sanji vs Vergo: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
> 
> Over the course of their fight Vergo received a bloody nose and some scratches while Sanji?s leg was fractured, which is clearly a far worse injury especially if you use your legs to attack and defend.
> 
> ...






We should look at what Sanji said.  Look closely at this panel. Sanji's words were "That was bad if the fight had kept going like that" everyone instantly thinks he's talking about losing. But, no one takes into account the two soldiers in his arms here that he saved  Also, in the first panel I've shown, the poison gas cloud is directly behind Sanji and Vergo. IF the fight continued, would not Sanji and the two marines be caught up in the poison gas? IF the fight kept going in a fashion where they are only parrying each other and not getting anywhere, wouldn't everyone be in trouble? Yet, we are all so fast to assume he's only speaking about losing. I presented a logical second reasoning.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> What was shown is that Sanji was helpless against Doflamingo and that Zoro was able to oppose Fujitora?s attack.





Biased and Incorrect. Zoro took one attack on a scale far smaller than all of Fujitora's attack and got up. Sanji took the same attack that cut the meteor up and took off Oars Jr leg got right up and attacked again. One attack each and they both got up. Sanji's attack was supposed to kill him though, fuji didn't even want to fight Zoro. So what now?


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## Mike S (Mar 9, 2014)

*Heads up*
To the judges, I'm currently at work and only have access to my smart phone. I will respond to Kuma and YM when I get back to my laptop later tonight.


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## Shanks (Mar 9, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are these in response to UJ's first rebuttal post? I being going back and forth, but can't find these quotes anywhere. These quote feels a little out of place as well. Am I going blind?

That said, it doesn't matter to much as you guys have either directly or indirectly address most points on UJ's initial rebuttal on other post already.

If there's any points team Sanji/Zoro haven't address team Zoro/Luffy is more than welcome to request and vise versa.

*@ The Pirate Hunter* - You should work in my job. I have 5 hours free at work today to read these endless wall of text multiple times to make a decision later on.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 9, 2014)

@BK


*Spoiler*: __ 





> There is absolutely no portrayl. In the manga, there is no indication at all that their training was higher to Sanji. Thus far Sanji has clashed with the strongest people and still shown in the M3. That's all there is. regardless of what the training was, there is no manga panel that shows or says anything about how strong they've become. The M3 were Complimented on power TS by Sentamaru, Nami, Doflamingo, Fujitora, Monet, Tashigi and G5. All spoke about them as a group or individual. But never one highlighted over the others. Any portrayal about the training is from the fans and fans only not the manga.





We only say that Luffy?s and Zoro?s training had higher potential and thus them increasing the gap to Sanji is more likely than the other way around. This doesn?t mean that we don?t consider Sanji part of the M3. 




*Spoiler*: __ 





> they compare in the sense that it only took each Zoro and Sanji two attacks to defeat their opponent. Only difference is one was a  drugged up swordsman and the other wasa drugged up giant larger than any giant. One doesn't put the other ahead in any power unless we get into the physics of a giant and I doubt that's happening





So you are saying that you don?t know how to compare them properly and thus they are equal?




*Spoiler*: __ 





> Too simple? Dragon A was killed by a sword. Blunt attacks didn't work. Dragon B was defeated by swords as well. Dragon B was the more durable and more aggressive between the two. Dagon B was defeated by Brook and Kinemon. Luffy is stronger than both of them but his blunt attacks didn't work. But against the stronger one, swords from weaker people beat the stronger Dragon. That's a huge indication that sharp weapon was the true difference.





Blunt attacks did work but the attacks Luffy used were not strong enough to kill the dragon. Swords are not necessary to win against it. But if you want to say that Zoro?s attacks are more lethal than Luffy?s then I?m fine with that.




*Spoiler*: __ 





> We should look at what Sanji said.  Look closely at this panel. Sanji's words were "That was bad if the fight had kept going like that" everyone instantly thinks he's talking about losing. But, no one takes into account the two soldiers in his arms here that he saved  Also, in the first panel I've shown, the poison gas cloud is directly behind Sanji and Vergo. IF the fight continued, would not Sanji and the two marines be caught up in the poison gas? IF the fight kept going in a fashion where they are only parrying each other and not getting anywhere, wouldn't everyone be in trouble? Yet, we are all so fast to assume he's only speaking about losing. I presented a logical second reasoning.





Nice theory. This doesn?t make him look better in the actual fight though.




*Spoiler*: __ 





> Biased and Incorrect. Zoro took one attack on a scale far smaller than all of Fujitora's attack and got up. Sanji took the same attack that cut the meteor up and took off Oars Jr leg got right up and attacked again. One attack each and they both got up. Sanji's attack was supposed to kill him though, fuji didn't even want to fight Zoro. So what now?





You say that my statement is biased and incorrect, does that mean you argue that Sanji would have escaped Doflamingo or that Zoro was not able to escape from Fujitora?s gravity? If you don?t, you might want to scrub this statement of yours, especially if you state things in the same paragraph that you cannot prove like you did here. You cannot prove that the attack Sanji took, the attack that cut the meteor and the attack that cut Oars Jr?s leg are the same.

Furthermore we don?t know how strong the gravitational field Zoro escaped from was in comparison to the rest of Fujitora?s attacks.


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## Shanks (Mar 9, 2014)

I feel that both teams have entered a round call “endless hot head bickery”, with the quality of the recent responses significantly lower than what’s being produced in the opening and initial rebuttal round.

In my opinion, whether BartholomewKuma decides to respond to Unclear Justice last post or whether ♦Young Master♦ decides to respond to Slenderman latest response should not and would not make the slightly bit of difference to the outcome of this debate, unless there’s additional further evidences or point of attack that haven’t being provided yet.

That said, I like to request the other judges to post a short comment/question(s) stating what is actually important to you when determining the final results to press forward with this debate in a more efficient manner.

What would be important to me is portrayal and not feats. Quality feats are basically non-existent post-skip, while pre-skip are dated. So that leaves how Oda have portray the M3 throughout the series and more importantly how these 3 compare against each other based on portrayal post-skip.

While Zoro’s portrayal post skip is of course better than Sanji and I commend team Sanji/Zoro (Namely YM) for finally addressing the Fujitora/Doflamingo portrayal and help close the gap between Zoro & Sanji slightly in my eyes, it doesn’t automatically means team Zoro is closer to Sanji or vise versa, because portrayal during the post-skip haven’t being great for Luffy and he still remains uncapped, so the gap between these 3 are still undecided here. That said, I challenged *team Zoro/Luffy* to work this point harder to convince everyone that Zoro is closer to Luffy based on this portrayal.


*At Team Zoro/Sanji*, the Zoro/Fujitora clash doesn’t make Sanji looks good, but you brought up a couple of good points that can help work in your favour, that is Sanji fighting Big Mom’s ship and Zoro not looking nearly as good now with Pica (compare to the Fujitora clash). I challenge you to expand on those two points further to close the gap with Zoro’s Fujitora portrayal.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

@Sabo Isn't that indirect help?


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## Shanks (Mar 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @Sabo Isn't that indirect help?



I am asking both teams to work on their reasoning better. Both points have being discussed by both teams before, so no this isn't an  indirect help for either team.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

If you say so..


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## Shanks (Mar 10, 2014)

Anyway.... as of right now, as difficult as it seems, I have come up with a point system on my end and given 1 team 24 points and the other team 26.5 points, but it’s certainly not over for the team with 24 points yet, because there’s still more opportunities to create some “Ah ha” posts and the final summary to even up the score.

I will elaborate clearly on the judge’s verdict on the scoring system later on and detailed exactly how those points were put together.

Good luck, both teams.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 10, 2014)

@ Bkuma
-the dragon in PH isn't immune to blunt attacks just because luffy's jet stamp(a barely noteworthy technique) isn't as strong as death lion's song(one of zoro's strongest ittoryu attacks).

@ team zoro/luffy
-i hence u drop the no-name attack argument, since fuji also never used a no-name attack(it can even be argued that its weaker than the one he used against those fodders back in the inn), while both DD and sanji did, so no real difference there.


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## Mike S (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't have the free time to address both posts from YM and Kuma at the moment, so I'll comment on one subject . I agree with Sabo, most of the things we're debating right now is just leading to mindless bickering that isn't contributing to the main argument, so the post that I'll address will get us back on track of our goal. That is proving Zoro is closer to Luffy after the time-skip.



♦Young Master♦ said:


> You're misunderstanding our argument. What we said is yeah, there's certain points that portray Zoro and Luffy together during Whiskey Peak, etc but after that point is where Oda's portrayal of Luffy/Zoro has switched to Zoro/Sanji.


Our whole point in listing EB and WP, was to show that Luffy and Zoro were closer to each other at the start of the manga; your team has acknowledged this also. With that in mind, Luffy and Zoro traveled together maintaining the same gap since WP, until they reached EL. Luffy pulled ahead of Zoro strictly because of the gears and the significance that it held during EL. So by extension, take away the significance of the gears(The foundation of Luffy pulling ahead of Zoro), we'll have the same gap as Pre-EL. 

The significance of the gears has definitely decreased. Luffy failed to prevent what he created the gears for, when the events on SA transpired. Post timeskip, Gear 2 has basically become Base-Luffy. Luffy uses it every chance he gets and we even have fodder characters like Hyouzou, reacting to it's speed and power. The damaging effects of the gears also seem to be gone as Luffy has better control of it. Post- timeskip, the gears aren't a valid reason to place Luffy above Zoro, as it did during EL.

Our EB and WP argument wasn't supposed to prove "Zoro is closer to Luffy", in itself. It was a piece of evidence that supports "Zoro is closer to Luffy after the TS".


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## Magician (Mar 10, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Our whole point in listing EB and WP, was to show that Luffy and Zoro were closer to each other at the start of the manga; your team has acknowledged this also.



Wrong.

We acknowledged that yes, there were certain points during that time period where Zoro and Luffy were related to each other, but after that is when the author's focus shifts.

We didn't say that Luffy and Zoro were closer to each other than Zoro and Sanji were, but that there were certain points where the author chose to focus on Zoro and Luffy's dynamic together, but during Little Garden and on, the author switched his focus to that of the Zoro and Sanji dynamic, showing off their rivalry and closeness in strength between each other.



> With that in mind, Luffy and Zoro traveled together maintaining the same gap since WP, until they reached EL. Luffy pulled ahead of Zoro strictly because of the gears and the significance that it held during EL. So by extension, take away the significance of the gears(The foundation of Luffy pulling ahead of Zoro), we'll have the same gap as Pre-EL.



You're forgetting Sanji.

The Monster Trio, I believe, was a term used by Nami during Alabasta(I think, not too sure) to describe the 3 strongest members of the crew. Most of us agree and I think the manga shows, that these 3 members are very close to each other and that any differences between them are small.

I believe that Zoro is stronger than Sanji(slightly so, but stronger nonetheless) but he's definitely not so far ahead that Sanji is not even in the mix which I've reiterated with my arguments concerning the Alabasta and Water 7 arcs where the gaps between the M3 were clearly shown.

Zoro always fights the #2 fighter and Sanji will always fight the #3, but the gaps between Zoro's opponents and Sanji's opponents are always very small compared to the huge hurdle Luffy has to cross in order to beat the top guy.

For example, the Mr. 1/Mr.2 dynamic being shown at the cafe with a clear rivalry between the two with neither one getting edge over the other in their clash. And then again with the Kaku and Jyabura dynamic, we see them have a very clear rivalry that contrast directly with the one Zoro and Sanji share with both of them being portrayed as very close to each other in regards to strength.

So the gap between Sanji and Zoro is small at this point and if you concede that Luffy increased the gap between him and Zoro through his learning of gears during W7/Enies Lobby and since Sanji is portrayed as very close to Zoro during this time period, would that not mean that the gap between Zoro and Sanji was smaller than the one between Zoro and Luffy?



> The significance of the gears has definitely decreased. Luffy failed to prevent what he created the gears for, when the events on SA transpired. Post timeskip, Gear 2 has basically become Base-Luffy. Luffy uses it every chance he gets and we even have fodder characters like Hyouzou, reacting to it's speed and power. The damaging effects of the gears also seem to be gone as Luffy has better control of it. Post- timeskip, the gears aren't a valid reason to place Luffy above Zoro, as it did during EL.



Well, yeah. The significance of the gears decreased because before it was new. It was a level that Luffy's never been at before, so when it was first introduced it was a pretty big deal. Now we're more used to it and it's not as special to us as readers.

But I don't see how that helps your argument. Just because Luffy uses it a lot more and is more comfortable with the technique doesn't mean it's any less effective. I don't get that logic.

The damaging effects of the gears are gone because Luffy has better control of it? So the technique is weaker now because he's more comfortable with it? I don't think I'm following you here.

And yeah Hyouzou reacted to Luffy's gears, but I don't see how that means that gears are less effective now, considering Luffy should've actually _increased_ his effectiveness over gears by the time skip.



> Our EB and WP argument wasn't supposed to prove "Zoro is closer to Luffy", in itself. It was a piece of evidence that supports "Zoro is closer to Luffy after the TS".



So you admit those arcs aren't enough to prove that Zoro is closer to Luffy, but I don't see how that can be used as much evidence to support the strength differences between the M3 after the time skip either.


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## Magician (Mar 10, 2014)

I'll respond to Slenderman's post later.


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## Vengeance (Mar 10, 2014)

Just some questions for my understanding:

@Team Luffy
You argue that Zoro was very close to Luffy at Whiskey Peak, fell behind a bit behind before the TS and became closer to him again during/after the TS?
According to you whom was he closer to during the time from after WP to before TS?

@Team Sanji
You argue that Zoro and Sanji have always been closer than Zoro and Luffy?

And @Sabo I don't think judges should take part in the debate like this tbh.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 10, 2014)

> *questions for team zoro/luffy.*
> -the point u made on croc, that zoro and sanji are capable of beaten him, if they had intel/prep time/3 rounds to fight croc/poison won't kill if beaten before it takes its effects(this one is kinda obvious), and luffy did not do anything in his 'prep time', he was basically searching for croc, so that point is irrelevant. so from ur point i understand that both zoro and sanji can defeat croc if they had intel, and had 3 rounds to go against croc, i'm afraid that's not true, having intel isn't guaranteeing them a win at all(luffy v croc 2nd round), and basically croc would beat them in all three rounds. unless u have some feats/facts that suggest otherwise.



I think this one hasn?t been addressed yet so I?ll answer it now.

We don?t say they would win against Croc under these circumstances. What we say is that it has yet to be proven that they wouldn?t.



Team Sanji stated this in their opening:



> Constantly Luffy has beaten down people thought to be tiers ahead of him (Croc, Lucci, Enel) all of which would have wishwashed Zoro and Sanji.



So they say that Luffy beat Crocodile who was thought to be tiers ahead of him and that Crocodile would have wishwashed Zoro and Sanji.

The first underlined passage implies that Crocodile was not tiers ahead of Luffy by Team Sanji?s opinion.
The second underlined passage implies that Crocodile was tiers ahead of Zoro and Sanji by Team Sanji?s opinion. 
By combining these two statements Team Sanji wants use the feat of Luffy defeating Crocodile as evidence to showcase a notable gap in power between Luffy and Zoro.

But this evidence is invalid because the circumstances Luffy accomplished this feat under(Luffy vs. Croc fight #3) are different than the implied circumstances of Zoro(or Sanji) vs. Croc(Luffy vs Croc fight #1). 



In order for their argument to work the circumstances of Luffy vs Croc and Zoro(or Sanji) vs Croc have to be the same.

If the circumstances are like in fight #1 Luffy loses. This means this possibility is not in favor of their argument.

If the circumstances are like in fight #3 then they have to prove that Zoro and Sanji wouldn?t win.


Conclusion:

If Team Sanji still wants to use the feat of Luffy beating Crocodile as evidence to showcase that Luffy has been notably stronger than Zoro and Sanji at that point in time they have to prove that it would have been impossible for Zoro and Sanji to win against Croc under the same circumstances as Luffy vs. Croc #3. If they can?t this argument holds no weight. 

The burden of proof is on them, not on us.


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## Mike S (Mar 10, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Wrong.
> 
> We acknowledged that yes, there were certain points during that time period where Zoro and Luffy were related to each other, but after that is when the author's focus shifts.
> 
> We didn't say that Luffy and Zoro were closer to each other than Zoro and Sanji were, but that there were certain points where the author chose to focus on Zoro and Luffy's dynamic together, but during Little Garden and on, the author switched his focus to that of the Zoro and Sanji dynamic, showing off their rivalry and closeness in strength between each other.



During WP, Oda dedicated a whole chapter to Luffy and Zoro directly engaging in battle. Both characters mentioned they were serious and he had Luffy himself say "Let's see whose style is stronger, once and for all!". Both characters used their strongest named attacks at the time and stalemated each other. Do you think Oda did this for shits and giggles? What exactly do you think we were supposed to take from that chapter.

LG was literally 4 chapters after WP. Where did Sanji overcome the gap during that period to become Zoro's equal? I elaborated earlier in the thread on how the portrayal of Dorry and Broggy, didn't demonstrate the strength gap between Zoro and Sanji, rather their competitive nature. Unless you think Zoro and Sanji were equal at that time.



> Zoro always fights the #2 fighter and Sanji will always fight the #3, but the gaps between Zoro's opponents and Sanji's opponents are always very small compared to the huge hurdle Luffy has to cross in order to beat the top guy.



You are confusing "hax" with strength. The arc villians Luffy faced were never levels above Zoro and Sanji. Croc and Enel had hax abilities that bypasses strength. With the same conditions, Zoro would perform just as well as Luffy against their abilities.  I'll elaborate on Lucci later.



> For example, the Mr. 1/Mr.2 dynamic being shown at the cafe with a clear rivalry between the two with neither one getting edge over the other in their clash



Daz didn't even use his DF during their exchange, which is his fighting style. 

What about the portrayal between Croc and Daz? Who did Croc go out of his way to free from ID? Who is by Croc's side as he takes on the NW? 

You are also ignoring the conditions of these fights. Zoro's biggest obstacle during his fight with Daz, was finding a way to hurt him. Zoro literally endured every attack Daz threw at him, until he figured out how to hurt him, while Sanji and Bon Clay were equally exchanging blows.



> So the gap between Sanji and Zoro is small at this point and if you concede that Luffy increased the gap between him and Zoro through his learning of gears during W7/Enies Lobby and since Sanji is portrayed as very close to Zoro during this time period, would that not mean that the gap between Zoro and Sanji was smaller than the one between Zoro and Luffy?
> 
> *Well, yeah. The significance of the gears decreased because before it was new. It was a level that Luffy's never been at before, so when it was first introduced it was a pretty big deal. *



Exactly. Enies Lobby was the arc that showed Luffy's resolve as captain. The gears were a big deal, hence the reason why Lucci was so much ahead of Kaku and Jyabura. The gears held more significance than Zoro and Sanji's power-up, which is why Luffy pulled ahead of Zoro.

The next arc shows Zoro beginning to catch back up, when he gains another power up and decreases the significance of the gears. This arc, Sanji gained nothing.



> So you admit those arcs aren't enough to prove that Zoro is closer to Luffy, but I don't see how that can be used as much evidence to support the strength differences between the M3 after the time skip either.



Those arcs prove Luffy and Zoro were closer in strength before Luffy gained the gears. So basically, without the significance of the gears, the gap between Luffy and Zoro goes back to the way it was Pre-EL.

Either way you slice it, the gears aren't what they were during EL. Post-skip, it has become Base-Luffy.  

I'll leave it at that for now. I would like to elaborate on this subject more but class starts in 10 minutes.


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## Magician (Mar 10, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> During WP, Oda dedicated a whole chapter to Luffy and Zoro directly engaging in battle. Both characters mentioned they were serious and he had Luffy himself say "Let's see whose style is stronger, once and for all!". Both characters used their strongest named attacks at the time and stalemated each other. Do you think Oda did this for shits and giggles? *What exactly do you think we were supposed to take from that chapter.*



That Luffy and Zoro were close in strength to each other, which I don't dispute. All the M3 are close to each other.

But that's not enough to prove that they were both a step ahead of Sanji. Which your team admitted.

Like I said, there were certain points during this time period where Oda focused more on the dynamic between Luffy/Zoro more, but after that is when it changes which I've showed in my earlier posts. Whether this is because of Oda changed his mind or a difference of focus or what, the fact of the matter is, the rest of the manga it is shown clearly how closely related Sanji and Zoro in relation to strength which I've already explained.



> LG was literally 4 chapters after WP. Where did Sanji overcome the gap during that period to become Zoro's equal? I elaborated earlier in the thread on how the portrayal of Dorry and Broggy, didn't demonstrate the strength gap between Zoro and Sanji, rather their competitive nature. Unless you think Zoro and Sanji were equal at that time.



We don't believe Sanji needed to overcome a gap.

And the Dorry and Broggy scenerio was used to further illustrate their rivalry which we see being contrasted directly with the dynamic between Mr.1/Mr.2 and Kaku/Jyabura who were portrayed as near equals which I won't get into since I've already addressed this point.

By itself LG wasn't enough to show their closeness with each other but it's another one of the many things Oda used to illustrate that.



> You are confusing "hax" with strength. The arc villians Luffy faced were never levels above Zoro and Sanji. Croc and Enel had hax abilities that bypasses strength. With the same conditions, Zoro would perform just as well as Luffy against their abilities.  I'll elaborate on Lucci later.



I've already addressed this multiple times in my posts in this debate just because you and UJ decided to ignore it doesn't mean you can keep repeating the same argument that's already been countered.

You counter our point, I counter your counter, and then you counter our counter. That's how this works.


*Spoiler*: _My Posts_ 





> And considering that, I do believe Zoro to be stronger than Sanji(slightly so, but stronger nonetheless) so he would obviously get the better opponents and the better portrayal than Sanji would.
> 
> For example, him fighting Mr. 1 with Sanji fighting Mr. 2. And Zoro fighting Kaku who had a slightly better Doriki than Jyabura who Sanji fought, etc.
> 
> ...





> Also to further explain Little Garden. Sanji and Zoro's rivalry was directly correlated with Dorry and Broggy for a purpose. Two rivals who fought each other tooth in nail, not being far from strength from the other. This is another indication shown by Oda to illustrate Sanji's closeness with Zoro.
> 
> And then after that we have Alabasta where Mr. 1 and Mr. 2 are portrayed as very close to each other with neither one getting the best of the other during their initial clash and introduction together. [1] [2] [3] [4]
> 
> ...








> Daz didn't even use his DF during their exchange, which is his fighting style.



Yeah because that wasn't a fight, that was a skirmish. Mr.2 didn't use half his arsenal either.

But that's besides the point. What I'm arguing here is portrayal. Oda used that scene to show how close these two characters are for a reason. Both individuals clashing and not getting the edge over the other. This is the first time during the arc where we are clued in on their strengths, so the portrayal here is pretty important. If Oda wanted to show that Mr.1 was clearly stronger than Bon Clay, he would've showed it at the cafe.

Now, Daz might be stronger but only slightly so and the gap between him and Bon is very small.



> What about the portrayal between Croc and Daz? Who did Croc go out of his way to free from ID? Who is by Croc's side as he takes on the NW?



Well yeah, Daz was Mr.1, the second strongest out of the Baroque Works. I don't dispute that, doesn't change the fact that him and Bon are very closely related in strength. That would be odd if Croc picked a Mr.2 over Mr.1, numero uno. I acknowledge that Daz is stronger than Mr.2, slightly so but stronger nonetheless, my point is that Daz is much closer to Bon Kurei than he is to his boss Crocodile. And we see this difference during Marineford when Crocodile clashed with Mihawk after one shotting Daz.

Plus, Oda had a very different role in mind for Bon Clay's character. It was during the Alabasta arc where Oda set up Mr.2 as a future ally for the Straw Hats, Impel Down was what came from it and now he's a constant ally and friend of the SH's, something he most likely wouldn't be if he were to be picked by Crocodile.

(Plus Croc would look way less badass with Bon Clay as his right hand instead of the stern, disciplined, badass-like, Daz Bones)



> You are also ignoring the conditions of these fights. Zoro's biggest obstacle during his fight with Daz, was finding a way to hurt him. Zoro literally endured every attack Daz threw at him, until he figured out how to hurt him, while Sanji and Bon Clay were equally exchanging blows.



You are being unfair to Sanji here.

Sanji also had a huge hurdle to cross in order to defeat Bon Clay. If you remember, he kept changing into females making Sanji hesitate in his attacks. The only way he was able to beat him was when he figured out how his ability worked and was able to attack him when he's not transformed.

And yeah Zoro survived all of Daz's attacks but he definitely didn't tank those shots with ease. Zoro legit almost died in that fight.



> Exactly. Enies Lobby was the arc that showed Luffy's resolve as captain. The gears were a big deal, hence the reason why Lucci was so much ahead of Kaku and Jyabura. The gears held more significance than Zoro and Sanji's power-up, which is why Luffy pulled ahead of Zoro.



That doesn't mean the Gears are less effective now just because he's more comfortable with the technique. Again, I don't understand that logic.

If I'm just starting to play basketball and I struggle to make a 3 pointer, if I finally make one it would be a way bigger deal than if I trained and got better and made 3 pointers all the time with ease. That doesn't make the shot less effective. If anything it's _more_ effective because of how comfortable with the technique I am.



> The next arc shows Zoro beginning to catch back up, when he gains another power up and decreases the significance of the gears. This arc, Sanji gained nothing.




*Spoiler*: _Copy Pasta_ 





> First of all, you'd have to assume that Zoro gaining Shusui is comparable to the level of strength increase that Luffy gained by acquiring gears, which I heavily disagree with.
> 
> There is no indication that Zoro got a significant increase after gaining Shuisui. If there is, please show me with manga evidence of Zoro doing anything with his new sword that he couldn't do before. And please show me this significant increase that he's gotten, because surely if this was his power up moment, Oda would've shown the difference.
> 
> If you can't show me this significant strength increase than I'm just going to assume Zoro gaining Shuisui's sword was for aesthetic and symbolic reasons and to also connect him with the upcoming Wano Arc and not necessarily to indicate that he pulled ahead or powered up significantly during that moment.






I'm still waiting for that evidence.



> Those arcs prove Luffy and Zoro were closer in strength before Luffy gained the gears. So basically, without the significance of the gears, the gap between Luffy and Zoro goes back to the way it was Pre-EL.
> 
> Either way you slice it, the gears aren't what they were during EL. Post-skip, it has become Base-Luffy.



Again gears are not less effective now just because Luffy's more comfortable with them. If anything it's _more_ effective because of that fact, the fact that it takes less stamina and effort for Luffy to use it.


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## Shanks (Mar 10, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> And @Sabo I don't think judges should take part in the debate like this tbh.



I'm just asking for teams to elaborate on points already discussed on certain points, probe and stir the debaters back on the right direction and try my best to keep them interested by illustrating this is still a close debate and could be anyone's game.

*Looks like there's about 10mins left for the rapid fire round!
*


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 10, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> @Team Luffy
> Question 1:
> a)You argue that Zoro was very close to Luffy at Whiskey Peak,
> b)fell behind a bit behind before the TS and
> ...



I edited your post so it?s easier for me to address it.

Question 1:

a) Yes.
b) Yes.
c) I have to elaborate on that one otherwise I would provoke a misunderstanding. At the end of pre skip Luffy had an advantage over Zoro in terms of his stats. The result from weighting the differences in those stats is what has been called the gap (in powerlevel) around here. Luffy and Zoro both trained for two years and this way their stats improved (by the same or nearly the same amount). This means the difference in stats stayed the same but since their stats are clearly higher now than they were before the time skip the influence of those differences to their overall combat power decreased, meaning they?ve become closer in overall combat ability (or powerlevel).



Question 2:

Until W7: closer to Luffy
EL: closer to Sanji
TB: very very close to the middle between them but still closer to Luffy
Until TS: very very close to the middle between them but still closer to Sanji


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## monkey d ace (Mar 10, 2014)

just to clarify on something, from UJ's post can i understand that team zoro/luffy admit that zoro is closer to sanji before the TS, but argue that zoro pulled a head during the TS, am i correct?


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## Shanks (Mar 10, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I edited your post so it?s easier for me to address it.
> 
> 
> 
> Until TS: very very close to the middle between them but still closer to Sanji



I am confused. This point isn't doing your team any favour. Care to elaborate or should we take this at face value?


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 10, 2014)

*Rapid Fire is over. Teams have 24 hours to post their closing arguments.*


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## Magician (Mar 10, 2014)

*Conclusion*​
First off, I'd like to say that this was a very fun and entertaining debate and hats off to the other team for providing good arguments as well. Tis was fun.

Secondly, again I want to preface that we _do_ in fact believe that out of the two, Zoro is the stronger combatant and has the slight edge over Sanji in that regard. And as the stronger combatant, he _will_ have a slightly better portrayal than Sanji at certain points. But the topic of this debate isn't who's the stronger between Zoro and Sanji, but rather who is Zoro closer to. Is he closer to Sanji or is he closer to Luffy?

We believe that Zoro and Sanji have a small gap between each other with Luffy a step ahead, but obviously neither one will go down to the other with anything less than high difficulty.

To illustrate it, it would be more like: Luffy >> Zoro > Sanji, instead of the alternative, Luffy > Zoro >> Sanji.

For this conclusion, I'll break up my posts into two parts covering Pre skip and post skip for easier reading sake.


*Spoiler*: _Pre Skip Portrayal_ 



Kuma and I have shown that throughout a large majority of the manga, it clearly shows Sanji and Zoro's relation to each other much much more than the dynamic between Zoro and Luffy. [][][][][]

Team Zoro/Luffy obviously believe that Zoro is closer to Luffy but never really built a strong foundation around that with manga evidence. One of the examples they used were the events surrounding Arlong Park and Whiskey Peak, events that happened around 12 years ago in real time which barely cover even a third of the pre skip. 

And while there are certain points here and there where Zoro is related to Luffy at times, the entire rest of the manga show and reiterate over and over how much closer Zoro is with Sanji. Again whether that was because of the author changing his mind on where he wanted to place the strength of the M3, him simply switching the focus or a combination of both, the fact of the matter is, the entire rest of the manga speaks for itself.

Kuma said it best here:


*Spoiler*: __ 






> The only evidence you've presented is the very first datebook from March 2, 2002. There has been 12 years of change since then. Every time line shown shows the relation to Zoro and Sanji. Not in a single one of those arcs are there any relations to Luffy and Zoro. Never once are they shown in tandem. Never did Zoro face a fighter close to Luffy. In every single one of those arcs, Sanji and Zoro have been hand and hand. If you feel so, I propose a challenge. Destroy our timeline, Using manga evidence, talk about or show Zoro and Luffy being more closely related in each step of the timeline. Show Zoro and Luffy being compared more than Sanji and Zoro. If that can be done, then it cast doubt on our argument.






We've shown throughout the debate how their rivalry between each other starts in Little Garden and directly contrasts between the ones shared between Dorry and Brogy who fought tooth and nail with each other for hundreds of years. And although this alone doesn't prove Zoro and Sanji's closeness with each other, it certainly helps illustrate that fact.

We've also shown how Alabasta was one of the biggest indicators of the small strength difference between Zoro and Sanji with their rivalry again being contrasted with a rivalry between their end goal opponents in Mr.1 and Mr. 2 who clashed at the cafe with neither one getting the edge over the other portraying the small gap in strength between the two. 

And then you have Luffy defeating a much stronger opponent in Crocodile. Even in Skypiea you have Zoro and Sanji defeating the priest while being completely out of Enel's league with Luffy defeating him in the end.

And obviously, as we've said throughout the debate, there's no proof that Zoro couldn't do the same considering the circumstances and handy caps, but if the argument can be made that Zoro has better portrayal than Sanji because of the higher caliber opponents he's faced then surely the same logic can be applied to Luffy who's consistently fought opponents that were a clear step ahead of the ones Zoro and Sanji fought, who were for the most part portrayed with a very small gap between them.

So the portrayal is definitely there in Luffy's favor of being a step ahead of the other two. Even more, we see this being reiterated again during Water 7/Enies Lobby with Kaku and Jyabura again being opponents with small gap between them with a rivalry that directly contrast with the one Zoro and Sanji share(this was done for a reason) who each defeated their opponents with around the same difficulty with Luffy learning gears and beating an opponent who had a clear step a head of the other two(and Team Zoro/Luffy even admitted to this point and state that Luffy pulled ahead in that regard).

If Oda wanted to portray that Luffy was very close to Zoro with a step ahead of Sanji he could've very easily have made the Zoro's opponents much closer to the opponent Luffy faced, but he didn't. Instead he had them with very close relation to Sanji and even with some showing a rivalry of the same likes that Zoro and Sanji share with each other. I believe Oda contrasted these for a reason.

And then we have Thriller Bark where the other team believes Zoro pulled ahead with a power up from Shuisui. I challenged them to show me where in the manga it was shown that Zoro wielding Shuisui is even close to the level of increase that Luffy gained while learning gears. They have yet to reply to that.

Plus they recently conceded on the point that Zoro is closer to Sanji pre time skip with their most recent post.



			
				Unclear Justice said:
			
		

> Until TS: very very close to the middle between them but still closer to Sanji







*Spoiler*: _Post Skip Portrayal_ 



Team Zoro/Luffy made the argument that because Zoro and Luffy trained under higher combatants that means Sanji fell behind in that regard. If that were the case then that would mean Law and Kidd would've fell behind as well. I highly doubt that they trained with people on the same prestige as Mihawk and Rayleigh. The Straw Hats were mostly matched up with which situation they'd learn the best from considering their fighting styles.

Plus Rayleigh trained Luffy for only half the time period, training him in the very basics of haki and having him learn on his own from there. And same could probably said for Zoro, considering his level of proficiency in haki isn't above and beyond Luffy's even though Mihawk's is. So I doubt he taught him everything he knows every step of the way.

So that's not an exactly conclusive argument, plus we can look at what they've actually shown after the timeskip and we believe that there's no reason to believe that Zoro pulled ahead in that regard.

In their return to Sabaody Archipelago, we see Zoro and Sanji again being shown related to each other in regards to strength with them both attacking a Pacifista together. [] Again, no relation between Zoro and Luffy to be seen.

Obviously they could've both one shotted that Pacifista, but we at least see the rivalry in terms of strength still intact.

In regards to Fishman Island, Zoro one shotting Base Hody is irrelevant in terms of portrayal, considering the fishmen were complete and utter fodder to the M3 and we know for a fact that Sanji could've done the same with just as much ease. Sanji not fighting Base Hody doesn't downplay him in regards to Zoro in slightest bit. 

With Punk Hazard, like we addressed, you have to consider that Sanji clashed with the strongest adversary on the arc him struggling in that regard doesn't automatically place him below Zoro in terms of portrayal considering Zoro's strongest opponent was Monet who is, again, complete fodder to the M3. So Zoro one shotting her doesn't give him better portrayal than Sanji nor does it make Sanji look less impressive. 

That's like saying Sanji had better portrayal and was stronger than Zoro during Baratie Arc because he dealt with Pearl and Gin while Zoro got toyed with by Mihawk without considering the strength levels of the opponents at all.

And as we addressed about Dressrosa, the Doflamingo and Fujitora situations were very different in approach. Fujitora was on the defensive, he blocked Zoro's slash to prevent him from aiming at Doflamingo and pushed him away with his gravity before blocking a return slash as well and immediately left the scene after. Had he wanted Zoro and Kinemon dead, they would've came away with more than a few bruises.

Doflamingo was on the attack, his goal was simply to kill all the Straw Hats and not just retreat after defending someone. Zoro wouldn't have done any better than Sanji did considering the circumstances(and also considering the fact that Sanji started in Dressrosa with the fight being a mid air battle over a mass of water, Zoro wouldn't have any way to get to Doflamingo to fight him effectively in the first place).

But in terms of portrayal you can make a case for Zoro getting the best of it in that regard with him clashing with an Admiral.

But then Sanji immediately matches that with clashing with a Yonko ship with a smile on his face and Luffy's full confidence telling him to strike back. This wasn't done on accident by Oda considering Zoro's clash with an Admiral and Sanji taking charge against a Yonko ship in the exact same chapter, so Sanji doesn't lose a step to Zoro in that regard.

And then after that we have Zoro struggling and having trouble with Pica a subordinate of Doflamingo's who Dofla should be considerably stronger than him, which is the same opponent Luffy is gonna take on at the end of the arc. 

So we see how the dynamic of the M3 doesn't change much in regards to strength to what was pretty much set in stone before the time skip.




So in conclusion, there are several points in the manga that correlate Sanji and Zoro together with a small gap in between time and time again. And we see Luffy set apart from them and portrayed as a step a head from the rest throughout the course of the manga. The dynamic between Sanji and Zoro in throughout the story is much much more apparent than any correlation between Luffy and Zoro in terms of strength and portrayal.


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## Magician (Mar 11, 2014)

Finally done.


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 11, 2014)

*Summary*

The first to do in order to answer the question of this debate is to visualize the question itself and the conclusions.

This is the question:

*Is Zoro closer to Sanji or Luffy?​*
Please note that the question is posed in present tense. To answer how things are currently we have to rely on the things we?ve seen so far. This also means that the older an argument is the less reliable it is to be used as evidence for the status quo and thus the less important it is for the debate. In conclusion everything that happened post-skip is more important than the training over the two years time-skip which again is more important than pre-skip.

Since this question cannot be answered by the usage objective means alone (otherwise we wouldn?t debate this in the first place) both teams had to try to work with the things that they had. In the end it is a matter of how to weight the things in favor of the different sides against each other.

This means the question is which team could present their take on that matter better.

To decide that it?s important to know where exactly both teams stand. This is where things are starting to become problematic:

Team Sanji never presented a coherent chain of reasoning to tie the aspects of this debate together and to explain how these aspects result in the opinion they have. 

In their opening Team Sanji listed arguments they thought are in their favor. They didn?t explain how these things are connected to show their point.

The only post of Team Sanji that comes close to being such a chain of reasoning is their Main Rebuttal, where they partially explained the differences between the pre-skip arcs and where they come from.

In general they focused on the attempt to disprove our take on this matter, but because of that they neglected to fully explain their reasoning.

We on the other elaborated on our position right at the start of this debate and answered comprehension questions even if this was not in our favor in order to clearify our point of view. And even though we did these things Team Sanji was not able to refute our crucial points that I quote now:


Unclear Justice said:


> Summary:
> - Luffy and Zoro have in general been portrayed closer than Zoro and Sanji.
> - Luffy and Zoro had better conditions to improve during the timeskip than Sanji.
> - Sanji had notably worse portrayal post-skip than Luffy and Zoro.



With the first point we wanted to show that Zoro being closer to Luffy is not something we?ve never seen before and that actually it has been the case for a longer period of time than it wasn?t over the course of pre-skip. I want to point out here that this point is not necessary for our argumentaion, it?s only supporting evidence.

With the the second point we wanted to show that even if Zoro was closer to Sanji directly before the time skip the advantage Luffy and Zoro had in their training in comparison to Sanji is enough to justify a change of the difference in their gaps. We explained the argument we used and Team Sanji was not able to refute it. On the other hand they never stated a reason why Luffy, Zoro and Sanji improved the way they believe they did.

With the third point we wanted to show that the post-skip portrayal implies that Zoro is now closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji and we firmly believe that those instances we showcased indeed imply those things and that Team Sanji was not able to find counter arguments that are strong enough to refute the arguments we used based on those instances.


In conclusion we had a coherent chain of reasoning that tied in all aspects of this debate. It showed that the post-skip portrayal implies that Zoro is now closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, that Oda had the opportunity to change their powerrelations between the M3 this way and that it wouldn?t be the first time Oda presented Zoro closer to Luffy. Furthermore we presented this chain openly and we were able to defend all crucial points of it. The same cannot be said about Sanji.


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 11, 2014)

*Judges may render their verdicts.*


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## Shanks (Mar 11, 2014)

I firstly like to commend both teams for their tremendous effort and I have actually come out of this debate with more respect and like both Sanji and Zoro more.

When I entered this debate, I personally believe that Zoro and Luffy are currently on a whole other level and have left Sanji in the dust, but Team Sanji/Zoro have help me close the gap slightly in this matter and I thank you for this.

It has being a very long debate and it very easy to forget about what’s initially produced and only focus on the last few posts, so in the interest of fairness, I will go back and review and comment on most posts. There have being lots of back and forth for this debate and I couldn't have asked for 2 better teams and to be honest it would be impossible to let one team win over the other if we need to review evident and arguments put forth beyond reasonable doubt, therefore I have come up with a solution on my end by giving each a score based on the quality of main posts. These scores will be use to determine the winning team later on.


*Opening Post (Dr, White)* – While Dr.White had some good points, there’s lots of hole in this summary which lead me to feel uneasy, for example using Croc, Lucci and Enel as an example without acknowledging the nature of those battle first and they can also use other more reliable example such as Arlong or that Sabaody Pacifista. 5/10


*Opening Post (Unclear Justice)* – Brought up a number of very good points on Strength comparison, Resolve & Willpower, Roles and execute those arguments clearly and precisely with excellent writing skills with very little room to rebuttal against on face value. One of the highlights for me in this opening was that Team Zoro/Luffy even go as far as downplay Zoro & Luffy role outside of combat to further illustrate parallels. 9.5/10

*1st Rebuttal (BartholomewKuma)* – Excellent post in the beginning to clearly illustrate strength parallel between Zoro and Sanji to counter the other team’s strength comparison, but this is when the outstanding post stops. The other responses were a little iffy with lots of room to counter and then also try to brush DR portrayal and clashes as short even exchanges. 7/10

At this point I actually thought it was game set match for team Zoro/Luffy, because they still have opening arguments with so many ways that they to back the other team into a corner, but did that happen?

*1st Rebuttal (Unclear Justice)* – the rebuttal to Croc & Enel were good but fairly obvious, and then everything else was a little iffty and in my opinion could do a lot better. During the last response to “Feats”, this is a perfect opportunity to disregard those feats completely and back the other team into a dark lonely corner, but instead giving them time to explain. 6.5/10

*Judges Questions*: During the rapid fire round, we have started off with judges’ questions and at this point I feel that team Sanji/Zoro is behind, therefore giving them an opportunity to turn the table, but the responses given to the judges questions was good, but not great in general. Team Zoro/Luffy did well initially, therefore very little questions were presented to them by the judges at this point, so that definitely a plus and of the questions asked, they answered it okay. 3.5/5 for team Sanji/Zoro and 3/5 for team Zoro/Luffy here.


At this point, we beg the question of who is actually ahead and team Sanji/Zoro does seem to be ahead slightly with very strong evident that during pre-skip, Sanji and Zoro’s portrayal are in fact closer compare to Luffy, but post skip portrayal and 2 years training is a little iffy still.

*Rapid Fire Round 1 (The Pirate Hunter)* – Team LuffyZoro now further illustrates and demonstrates how Zoro and Luffy are in-fact a lot close together and this was definitely one of the ah ha post for me. Responses to Role, Resolves and Will Power still seem iffty from both teams. 4/5

*Rapid Fire Round 1 (BartholomewKuma)* – everything that’s present were okay, but nothing really outstanding, so at this point team Zoro/Sanji is in the lead. 2.5/5

*Rapid Fire Round 2 (Slenderman) vs. (Young Master)* – Both had decent points with some back and forth but the highlights for me is definitely when Young Master start acknowledging Zoro vs. Fujitora & Sanji vs. Doflamingo and address this topic well. Team Sanji/Zoro 4/5, Team Zoro/Luffy 2.5/5


After this things gets repetitive and that’s when the quality of the posts for both teams starts to diminish. From this point onward, I will only highlight any points I feel worth mentioning and give additional points to each team that deliver ah ha moments.

*Ah ah moments include:*
•	BartholomewKuma – posting pages with spoilers tag illustrating Sanji’s will power and a large growth since EB. + 1 point.
•	Young Master – cornering the other team's on the argument of Zoro having a power increase with Shuisui with very little room to move +1 point.
•	Unclear Justice Post   #44 picking the other teams argument apart and identifying holes left right and centre +1 point.
• Unclear Justice Post #55 eleborating on Luffy's pre-skip oppornant using Croc as a example. +1

*Medal of Honor* – this is special mentioned to certain debaters who clearly demonstrated greatness.

•	Top Post – UJ’s opening post +1
•	Most Dedicated Debater – Young Master +1

Now I would like to look at the opening post by both teams and break those down into sections and identify which team did a better job on those arguments.

*Team Sanji/Zoro Opening Post Arguments*
•	Luffy with monsterous feats - Lots of back and forth, but UJ won this point for team Zoro/Luffy with the Croc post +1
•	Zoro and Sanji both get great feats on a similar level - team  Sanji/Zoro wins this in my opinion with pre-skip opponents. +1
•	Doriki argument - Sanji/Zoro wins this + 1
•	Feats this timeskip are pretty even between Sanji and Zoro but Luffy is still winning - team Zoro/Sanji using Fodder opponents as feats is simply no no. Zoro/Luffy wins this +1

*Team Zoro/Luffy Opening Post Arguments*
Strength comparison should really be broken down in pre-skip portrayal, time training and post skip portrayal IMO, therefore I’ll do that here.
•	Pre-skip Strength – team Zoro/Luffy was winning but that last post from UJ through me off. As he admits ‘Until TS: very very close to the middle between them but still closer to Sanji’, so team Sanji/Zoro wins here +1
•	Time skip Training – I personally feel that team Sanji/Zoro could elaborate on this a lot more by using examples outside of the M3 and could still win this argument, but the fail to do so. Team Zoro/Luffy wins this +1
•	Post Skip Strength – YM came out strong with the Fujitora vs. Zoro and Sanji vs. Doflamingo statement and I personally think YM edges this. Sanji/Zoro win +1
•	Resolve & Willpower – YM & BK definitely edges again. No one is denying that Zoro have stronger Resolve & Willpower than Sanji, but YM demonstrated that Sanji having being closing the gap since EB. I personally believe that team Sanji/Zoro could elaborate on Luffy’s Resolve & Willpower more. Luffy’s Resolve & Willpower at MF is definitely superior to anyone in the manga. Nonetheless team Sanji/Zoro wins this +1
•	Roles – team Zoro/Luffy wins this. They counter every single arguments and examples the other team gave and did it well. + 1


So as it stand with only the closing summary to review here is where the team stands.



But before reviewing the closing arguments, I would like to give an honorable shout out to ♦Young Master♦. If I can judge this debate and give the prize to the top debater based on a combination on quality and quantity, it would certainly be this guy. He was active throughout the 48hrs of the rapid fire round and was essentially holding the entire team up during the last 24 hours and fearlessly battling it out in a 2 v 1 match up against UJ and TPH. So regardless of which team wins, he should definitely be a major candidate for employee of the month this March.

That said, we still need to review the closing arguments and allocate points for each team out of ten and it could still be any team's game.


*Summary (Young Master)* – I really hate to critisie the debaters now that we’ve see such positive debates over all. A few criticism on this summary:

1)	A summary should be a summary. It was 4 pages when I copy it into words!
2)	Elaborating on some good points such as timeskip training, Dressrosa/Big Mom clashes, but I wish these were in the rapid fire round instead.
3)	Repeating long paragraphs on pre-skip arguments
4)	Quoting a large paragraph from the debate

That said, there are also lots of positives on the summary including:
1)	Taking advantage of the final post to really push forward arguments and points that they may have missed or might not have done as well in the debate, so prompts for this but once again most of these should be in the debate itself.
2)	Using the other team’s (UJ’s quote) words against them.
3)	Still using link to manga pages – a picture tells a thousand words.

*Summary (Unclear Justice)* – Again both negatives and positives. Negative includes:

1)	First paragraph – this makes me feel uneasy, especially when both teams have being focusing the majority of their effort on pre-skip portrayal. And furthermore, I don’t feel that either team have truly proven who is closer to Zoro with post skip portrayal, so it should really come down to the little victories over the course of the debate.
2)	While it’s a good summary, you should also take into consideration that this is a very long debate and the judges and audience may forget about certain important parts of the debate, so elaborating a bit more wouldn’t hurt.

And the then the positive includes:
1)	Good summary and what a summary should be for people like myself to have time to read the debate over 3 times and have time to comprehend it. This truly summarises the debate and points addressed and limitations of the other teams, which I have also elaborated on above.
2)	I like how the 3 point form quote really hits you in the face and that could easily be a summary of the summary also.


*Spoiler*: __ 



That being said, Team Sanji/Zoro get 8/10 for the summary and Team Zoro/Luffy gets 6/10.
*
Team Zoro/Luffy wins this with 0.5 points ahead at 38.5.*






edit for spell check only.


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## Vengeance (Mar 12, 2014)

Obviously this wasn't easy to judge, I tried  to be as objective as possible.
To make it easier I made a list out of the notes I took, containing the convincing
points of each side in my judgement: 

*
Team Sanji*

++  Many instances where Zoro and Sanji have been portrayed as (very) close rivals:
      ▪ Little Garden (Dorry and Broggy parallel)
      ▪ Closer opponents in Alabasta 
      ▪ Jyabura and Kaku having almost the same Dokiri – Lucci a step ahead
      ▪ Fight against Oars
      ▪ Post TS Continuation: Pacifista, Fishman Island

      => Convinced me that Zoro and Sanji were overall closer Pre TS

+ Luffy and Zoro being Supernovas unlike Sanji  hardly being relevant for the debate
+ Luffy's new technique Gear putting him a step ahead (Shusui being not an equal gain)
+  Certain feats of Zoro Post TS being overvalued by Team Luffy
+  Sanji's fight against Doflamingo and Zoro's clash against Fujitora can not simply be equated,
     they have to be looked at in a different light.


*Team Luffy*

+  There were/can be periods where Zoro was/is very close to Luffy 
+ Luffy's and Zoro's role as fighters of the crew not being irrelevant
+ Luffy and Zoro having higher willpower/resolve and its relevance.

+  Opponents of Luffy being a step ahead, but defeated because of disadvantages
    ▪ Luffy having 3 fights to beat Crocodile
    ▪ Luffy being immune against Enels DF
    ▪ Luffy having a high resistance aginst blunt damage (Lucci)

    => Convinced me that the M3 were closer than it seemed and thus also increases the chance of
          Zoro being closer to Luffy.

+ Gain of Shusui being a power-up to some degree
+ Luffy and Zoro having at least slightly superior training during the TS.
+ Zoro overall having superior portrayal compared to Sanji since the TS – difference compared to
    Pre TS portrayal

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if this was only about Pre TS my vote would have to go to Team Sanji, their primary argument being really convincing and thus decisive. Nothing Team Luffy stated was equally convincing or able to debunk that in my judgement. Albeit the M3 being closer than it seems at first glance is important.

But the question is not whom Zoro was closer to, but whom he is closer to. While Team Sanji convincingly argued there was (to some degree) a continuation of their past, close rivalry in Post TS instances (Pacifista fight, Fishman Island scene) and that some of the scenes brought up by Team Luffy are overvalued on their part, Team Luffy convinced me that Zoro and Luffy had at least a slightly superior training during the TS. This would be a moot point if Oda decided to leave everything as it was. But Team Luffy convinced me that he didn't, that there is overall a shift in the portrayal of the M3, with Zoro and Sanji (despite the mentioned instances) not being portrayed as close as they used to be. However I can not judge whether this shift was big enough for a inversion of the Pre TS gap or not. Hence I have to give a draw vote.


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## Shanks (Mar 12, 2014)

What happens when time is up and there are judges that haven't posted their Verdict?


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 12, 2014)

This will end when one team gets a majority.


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## trance (Mar 12, 2014)

Will post decision in 24 hours. Reviewing the debate.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 13, 2014)

i will now post my verdict, though its not as fancy as sabo's

*opening arguments.*
-team zoro/sanji. DR.white had some good points, especially when it came to comparing luffy's feats to both zoro's and sanji's, but overall it was a very rushed argument, could've been more detailed and better. 6.5/10
-team zoro/luffy. now that's a well organised and detailed opening argument. he made very good arguments when it came to resolve and willpower, but he did bad by using fodder-state hody and monet to support his argument, when they were utter fodders to the M3. still very good overall. 8.5/10

*main rebuttals.*
-team zoro/sanji. much better than the initial argument, Bkuma more or less covered up everything, i also loved his detailed timeline when comparing sanji's strength to zoro, well put up rebuttal, but its a negative that he left out to explain the fuji/zoro~sanji/DD feats. 8/10
-team zoro/luffy. due to DR.white's rushed opening UJ didn't have much to work with from the beginning, and he also made some sloppy arguments, like in the croc's case, saying zoro/sanji could beat croc in the same situation as luffy without proof whatsoever(BOP should be on his part). also the douriki argument which his team conceded later on. 6/10

*rapid fire round* this divides into 2 parts,

*part 1*(judge's question).
-team zoro/sanji. they had some negatives, they had bad reasoning for sanji having a hard time against vergo, and made a false statement that the dragon on PH is immune to blunt attacks, just because jet stamp wasn't as powerful as death lion's song. but then i believe they managed to answer judges sabo's question thoroughly. 5/10
team zoro/luffy. a couple of negatives here aswell, they missed my point on the douriki question, they didn't take into account what i said about rokushiki/DF mastery at all. made a false claim, the BoP should on them when they want to say sanji and zoro could beat croc if they were in luffy's shoes, since croc has the better feats and the support from the manga.  5/10

*part 2*(rapid fire rebuttals) this went back and forth for the most part, not many facts were presented, but the main highlights were that team zoro/luffy conceded on the douriki argument, and admitted that zoro was closer to sanji prior to the the TS,  so i'll give team zoro/sanji 6/10 here, and team zoro/luffy 5/10.

*conclusion argument*
-team zoro/sanji, well since it was settles by both teams that zoro was closer to sanji preTS, i don't think it was necessary to go over it again! and for postTS, YM made really good points to keep sanji in the game, his point about law/kid not falling behind luffy even though he had the best trainer, countered the zoro had the best trainer point made by the other team, and he actually went over the fuji/zoro feat and compared it to sanji/DD feat, again, he made good points about DD had the intent to kill, while fuji intent was just keeping zoro away from DD, and 'retreated' after doing so. 8/10
-team zoro/luffy,  due the lack of feats postTS, i think admitting that zoro was closer to sanji did them no good! since preTS is where most of the feats/portrayal lie, and at the end they couldn't seal it with postTS feats alone, pretty good conclusion overall. 7/10

*overall results:*
team S/Z. 6.5+8+5+6+8 = 33.5
team Z/L 6+8.5+5+5+7 = 31.5

team zoro/sanji takes it by _2 points_.

most dedicated debaters.
1-young master
2-unclear justice
3-bartholomeo kuma


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## trance (Mar 13, 2014)

Going to try to keep this short.

Zoro/Sanji- A good but seemingly rushed opening argument by *Dr. White* left a couple holes in their side of the debate. However, *BartholomewKuma* made up for that by neatly organizing a timeline displaying comparisons made between Zoro and Sanji, which does, indeed, have implications that they are very close in strength. 

*♦Young Master♦* come on very strong in the rapid fire phase by responding to both *Slenderman* and *The Pirate Hunter* (probably to make up for Dr. White abandoning ship) with his emphasis about douriki, their post-TS clashes, and how portrayals against Doffy and Issho should not be indicators of their strength in comparison to each other. IMO, this is where Team Zoro/Sanji shined brightest. 

Altogether, I'm giving them 91/100.

Zoro/Luffy- *Unclear Justice* opened up with a pretty solid opening argument that showcased how Luffy and Zoro can be compared to each but his willingness to include their confrontations against Monet and Hody (fodder) and on resolve and willpower slightly bothered me. 

*Slenderman* came up a bit short in the rapid fire phase by bringing up somewhat irrelevant points and I can't help but feel that he kept using assumptions rather than valid proof or reasoning. I believe *The Pirate Hunter* was in the right for keeping true to indicators such as Arlong Park and Whiskey Peak as well as acknowledging Zoro's acquisition of Shuusui in Thriller Bark.  

*Unclear Justice* finished it off with something I'm also a bit uncertain of...their post-TS portrayals which are up to all kinds of different interpretations unlike pre-TS which have more basis, at least IMO. Still, a good summary nonetheless.

Altogether, I'm giving them an 83/100.

Congratulations to all of you!! 

You are all worthy of being called debaters.


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## Vengeance (Mar 14, 2014)

Finally posted my verdict, sorry for the wait. Good debate


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2014)

I'll keep it short.

In the beginning, Dr White's opening argument was ok, but felt rushed. UJ's opening argument made some good points about how Zoro was ahead of Sanji. As the debate went on however, it bothered me that UJ kept insisting that Zoro beating Hody, Hyozu, and Monet (who were at the end of the day, fodder), was Oda's way of portraying that Zoro closer to Luffy. I also didn't like how Pirate Hunter said that Sanji's willpower was not on par with Luffy and Zoro's. In the end, I felt that Team Zoro/Sanji (particularly BK and YM) presented more evidence that Zoro and Sanji were closer to each other, while Team Luffy/Zoro could not prove that Zoro was closer to Luffy, and all that they could prove was that Zoro was only stronger than Sanji.

So I'm giving my vote to *Team Zoro/Sanji.*


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## StrawHat4Life (Mar 14, 2014)

*Team Zoro is Closer to Sanji wins! 

You each earn five points for winning. 

Thanks to both teams for an excellent debate. *


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## Shanks (Mar 14, 2014)

*Congratulation Team Sanji/Zoro* - I guess having the extra experience the second time around did help, huh?


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## Slenderman (Mar 14, 2014)

Congratulations Team Sanji. T'was a good debate.


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