# Who can solo the Sannin?



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 4, 2013)

Location: _Sannin_ Battlefield

Restrictions:_Edo Tensei_

Scenario 1: Full for the _Sannin_, none for the opponent. Everyone starts in base.

Scenario 2: Full for the opponent, none for the _Sannin_. Jiraiya starts in SM.

Who can solo them?

Bonus: Change Tsunade to BD Tsunade.


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## RedChidori (Sep 4, 2013)

Definitely Minato. His shunshin jutsu plus Rasengans would be too much for the sannin to handle. Especially for Tsunade.


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## Tsunami (Sep 4, 2013)

Rinnegan Tobi


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## 2Broken (Sep 4, 2013)

I'd say Healthy Mobile Nagato is the weakest person that can do it.

So basically if it is not debatable that a certain character is stronger than a Healthy Mobile Nagato than that said character could solo the Sannin.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 4, 2013)

What about de bonus guis?


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## Rocky (Sep 4, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> What about de bonus guis?



Only guys with enough stamina to outlast her. BD Tsunade has tanked cellular disintegration.


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## Veracity (Sep 4, 2013)

What's BD Tsunade? Your acting like she even gets wanked. If anything she gets the support the deserved. You don't understand the shit I've seen against her. People saying she gets beat by chunnin without her regen. People saying she loses to PTS Zabuza or PTS Kakashi. Some pitiful shit.

If anything, BD Itachi, Minato, SM Naruto,  and even Jirayia need to he restricted.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 4, 2013)

by hype.. Sakumo..


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## Rocky (Sep 4, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What's BD Tsunade? Your acting like she even gets wanked. If anything she gets the support the deserved. You don't understand the shit I've seen against her. People saying she gets beat by chunnin without her regen. People saying she loses to PTS Zabuza or PTS Kakashi. Some pitiful shit.
> 
> If anything, BD Itachi, Minato, SM Naruto,  and even Jirayia need to he restricted.



She does get wanked. 

Hard.

When her boss summon is trumping the likes of Itachi, there's a problem.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 4, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What's BD Tsunade? Your acting like she even gets wanked. If anything she gets the support the deserved. You don't understand the shit I've seen against her. People saying she gets beat by chunnin without her regen. People saying she loses to PTS Zabuza or PTS Kakashi. Some pitiful shit.
> 
> If anything, BD Itachi, Minato, SM Naruto,  and even Jirayia need to he restricted.



Jiraiya apparently has instant SM, it's cray cray. I tend to stay away from Minato and Itachi wankers.

 I'm not a big Tsunade fan. In fact, I find her overrated more than I could ever dream. But she beats the hell out of PTS Zabuza, not as much against PTS Kakashi, but still beats him handily.

But don't confuse me finding her overrated with me being a hater. But she gets wanked. Hard.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> She does get wanked.
> 
> Hard.
> 
> When her boss summon is trumping the likes of Itachi, there's a problem.



No she doesn't. I'm not talking about retard debaters. I'm talking about actual skilled debaters. She really doesnt.But then we have skilled debaters wanking the living hell out of Minato and Itachi. It's not even cute anymore. That shit is annoying af. When we have people seriously debating about Itachi soloing 4 of the Gokage. We have a problem.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 5, 2013)

The skilled Tsunade debaters do wank her more than I expected.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> The skilled Tsunade debaters do wank her more than I expected.



Which instances?


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## Magicbullet (Sep 5, 2013)

All the usual culprits: Hashi, Mads, Naruto, Tobi of the Six Paths, not Minato. Itachi if Kishi is writing the fight.


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## Ersa (Sep 5, 2013)

Anyone stronger or equal with Edo Itachi, living Minato or EMS Sasuke should comfortably solo the Sannin.

Nagato rapestomps, Edo Minato and Rinnegan Obito murk them as easily as Jonin murk Genin.


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## Bonly (Sep 5, 2013)

Obito
Hashi
Madara
Naruto
Sasuke
Nagato
Minato
Killer B

Those are the only ones that comes to mind as of now.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Bonus: Change Tsunade to BD Tsunade.



Obito
Hashi
Madara
Naruto

Everyone else gets destroyed due to the great Katsuyu-Sama who can beat Minato and Itachi, which was said by a respectable Tsunade fan, who chose to ignore portrayal for some reason and go with feats only while ignoring feats and going with only portrayal for Hiruzen (aka Hiruzen vs Tsunade or all Hiruzen threads).


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## trance (Sep 5, 2013)

Hashi, Madara, BM Naruto, Nagato, Rinnegan Tobi and the like all stomp so hard...

Minato with his _Bijū Mode_ might also...



> Everyone else gets destroyed due to the great Katsuyu-Sama who can beat Minato and Itachi, which was said by a respectable Tsunade fan, who chose to ignore portrayal for some reason and go with feats only while ignoring feats and going with only portrayal for Hiruzen (aka Hiruzen vs Tsunade or all Hiruzen threads).



Matto is the one...


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## 2Broken (Sep 5, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Anyone stronger or equal with *Edo Itachi, living Minato or EMS Sasuke should comfortably solo the Sannin.*



Disregarding the immortality Edo grants Itachi, They all lose if they try to solo the Sannin; Sasuke would do the best by a significant margin.


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## crisler (Sep 5, 2013)

If Edo Tensei is allowed then....dunno. Once oro had control of all hokages and now he doesn't, so..

if ET is restricted then the list is pretty long, especially when we've got MS users and hiraishin users out there that can ohko 99% of the narutoworld easily.


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## Mercurial (Sep 5, 2013)

Definitely do: (100%)

- *Juubito*
- *BM + SM Naruto*
- *Hashirama*
- *Madara*
- *BM Naruto*
- *Nagato*
- *Kabuto* (with SM + Edo Tensei)
- *Minato*
- *Obito*
- *KCM Naruto*

Most probably do: (85-90%)

- *Kakashi*
- *Itachi*
- *Tobirama*
- *Six Paths of Pain*
- *EMS Sasuke*

Could do: (65-70%)

- *Gated Gai (no 8th Gate)*
- *Danzo with Koto*
- *SM Naruto*
- *MS Sasuke*

Some chances to do: (20-50%)

- *Killer Bee*
- *3rd Raikage*


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## Garcher (Sep 5, 2013)

Itachi. Oneshots with sharingan genjutsu + kunai


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## Magicbullet (Sep 5, 2013)

I had no idea the Sannin had fallen so far, half the posts in this thread are


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## Wolfstein (Sep 5, 2013)

I reckon Nagato would be the weakest. But still, enough Sannin downplay. Some pretty lulzy stuff in this thread...


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## ThunderCunt (Sep 5, 2013)

Madara
Nagato
Hashirama
BM Naruto
Jubito(ofcourse)


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## Krippy (Sep 5, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Anyone stronger or equal with Edo Itachi, living Minato or EMS Sasuke should comfortably solo the Sannin.
> 
> Nagato rapestomps, Edo Minato and Rinnegan Obito murk them as easily as Jonin murk Genin.



Best answer in this thread.


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## Freechoice (Sep 5, 2013)

Krippy aka Kripster the Holy can solo them with ease.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 5, 2013)

Minato soloing Sannin... Fuck this planet.


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## Ersa (Sep 5, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Disregarding the immortality Edo grants Itachi, They all lose if they try to solo the Sannin; Sasuke would do the best by a significant margin.


Not really, Sannin are nothing special anymore. 

Tsunade is just mid-tier Kage level, SM Jiraiya is the strongest of the three and Orochimaru is somewhere of a middle ground between them, excluding Edo Tensei.

With frogs as support and FTG, the Sannin will never touch Minato. As soon as one of them is tagged he can send a Liger Bomb level Rasengan into their skulls.

EMS Sasuke can mow them down with mass Enton spam and arrow spam never giving Orochimaru the time to use Edo Tensei or Jiraiya the time to use Sage Mode.

Same for Edo Itachi, except unlike Sasuke he was unlimited stamina so mass Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/Susanoo spam ends the three fodders.

And don't get me started on full power KCM Naruto and Nagato, they'd plasters 2 Sannins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2013)

Scenario 1 : Madara, Hashirama, Current Naruto, Juubito
Scenario 2 : All of the above + Itachi, Minato, Sasuke, Nagato, Obito, Kabuto

Others who could potentially do it but not a guarantee : A, Kirabi, Deidara


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2013)

then only characters that can defeat all at once
from the strongest to the weakest
Obito, Naruto, Minato, Madara, and Hashirama. 

only.
EMS Sasuke does not have enough feats.
Itachi is too weak,, he's weaker than base Jman, and Tsunade can defeat him by her summon
Pain stated himself that he could have lost to Jman alone. I don't see him winning against all 3.
Nagato, his chance it's very low.


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## Ghost (Sep 5, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Scenario 1: Full for the _Sannin_, none for the opponent. Everyone starts in base.


Sasuke, Naruto, Hashi, Madara, Nagato and Obito.



> Scenario 2: Full for the opponent, none for the _Sannin_. Jiraiya starts in SM.



Itachi, Minato, Kabuto and who I listed above.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 5, 2013)

LoL at Minato or Itachi soloing the sannin..gtfo

1) Hashirama
2) Madara
3) Obito
4) Current Naruto
5) Kabuto - Edo prep
6) Edo Itachi
7) Edo Nagato
8) Edo Minato


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> *LoL at Minato or Itachi soloing the sannin..gtfo
> *
> 1) Hashirama
> 2) Madara
> ...



The Irony. 

and no, Itachi is no where near the level to solo all three, and thinking that you make him
able to do so is laughable in fact.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> She does get wanked.
> 
> Hard.
> 
> When her boss summon is trumping the likes of Itachi, there's a problem.



Oh come on.

For every one instance Tsunade gets wanked she gets dragged through the mud in like fifty others.

So like two people out of who knows how many said the summon trumps Itachi _through match-ups_, when even one of _Itachi's_ fans admits she'd be problematic:


> Itachi was the most interesting for me. He is far higher than her in general feats and author portrayal. However, his move set as it stands would struggle with her.



Every other time that has been brought up outside of that was a Tsunade bashing tirade with everyone desperately trying to use it as an example to complain about her fanbase in its entirety.

There is a _*much* bigger problem_ with people claiming Tsunade would be lucky to beat your average chunin without regeneration, or that she dies from being stabbed in the heart, or that she isn't Kage level.

She is, in general, more underrated. Enough to get over whatever wank goes on, certainly.


_*But back on topic*_:



Magicbullet said:


> All the usual culprits: Hashi, Mads, Naruto, Tobi of the Six Paths, not Minato.



I would agree with this, but I would also add Nagato.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Oh come on.
> For every one instance Tsunade gets wanked she gets dragged through the mud in like fifty others.
> 
> There is a _*much* bigger problem_ with people claiming Tsunade would be lucky to beat your average chunin without regeneration, or that she dies from being stabbed in the heart, or that she isn't Kage level.
> ...



I generalized. The Katsuyu example was actually a more mild one; Tsunade's "wank", or overestimation, was incredibly bad at times.

One of her fans claimed that since Madara failed to kill Tsunade in battle (Madara was the strongest character by far at the time), Tsunade was now canonically immortal in battle. _Immortal._ This poster believed adamantly that Hebi Sasuke could never kill Tsunade ever because Madara didn't.

I've also seen other abhorrent claims, such as:


Tsunade packs the physical strength necessary to kill the Raikage in her pinkie. 

There is no speed difference between Tsunade and Gai.

She can hit Minato.

She can regenerate from complete cellular destruction (C4) or *atomization* (Jinton) and continue to fight efficiently.
 
It's bad.

The only severe underestimation of Tsunade I've seen comes from established trolls. People claiming the Hokage isn't Kage level are obviously missing the part of their brain that draws conclusions using logic and reason.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 5, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Oh come on.
> 
> For every one instance Tsunade gets wanked she gets dragged through the mud in like fifty others.
> 
> ...


Well, considering that I've seen more hardcore Tsunade wankers than haters, I'm not so sure about this conclusion. And you seem to be quoting the Tsunade haters. Most of the Forum seems to try to retaliate from the wank.

And to me it isn't about how many wankers/haters there are. As long as they post often, there might as well be 10 of them. And just because she doesn't have that many wankers doesn't mean that we should ignore her wankers, either.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 5, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Location: _Sannin_ Battlefield
> 
> Restrictions:_Edo Tensei_
> 
> Scenario 1: Full for the _Sannin_, none for the opponent. Everyone starts in base.



_Hashirama_ - obvious

_Madara(VotE and up)_ - obvious

_Naruto(BM and up)_ - too much firepower and speed. Good chances of him tearing Tsunade and Jiraiya apart before they could activate their modes. Orochimaru can last for a while but there is nothing he can do without specific Edo Tensei.

_Sasuke(EMS)_ - Casual Susano with Enton is too strong - even with prior knowledge. Jiraiya isn't reaching SM while Tsunade's regen is useless against Amaterasu. Orochimaru lasts for a good while again but he can't get through Susano by himself and after a dozen of Oral Rebirths he is going down too. Battlefield doesn't provide hiding spots so even if Jiraiya gets to SM and charges Frog Song(very very unlikely but possible) - he gets sniped by Magatama. 

_ET Minato_ - BM mode with ChoChoCho Rasengan x Hiraishin. GG.

_ET Itachi_ - Susano-camping and Totsuka one-shotting. Regenerators can't allow to be hit. High genjutsu-risk with possible Tuskiyomi one-shot(and no, Tsunade ain't healing that in the actual fight). Knowledge allows Sannin to put up a good fight but due to ET chakra regen Itachi can win this comfortably. Living Itachi likely loses most of the times due to knowledge and new powered up Orochimaru.

_Nagato(Healthy and up)_ - Preta Path trolling, Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, Asura Path to counter CQC attempts, very annoying Cerberus
Obito(Rinnegan with Paths and up).

Debatable: 

_Killer B_ - no knowledge B is unlikely to go full biju from the start. Going against Tsunade+Oro(Jiraiya will be charging SM) in CQC is going to end up with him receiving heavy damage. The moment he opts for full biju - SM Jiraiya will be ready with his offensive arsenal. Hachibi vs Sannin is a close battle. We saw Hachibi getting smacked by two Raikages and Tsunade is physically superior to them. Jiraiya comes with Goemon, Cho Odama Rasengan and Gama Trio. Orochimaru with Rashomon can partially counter bijudama and his offensive tools(Yamata, Manda 2/Aoda) also can mess with Hachibi. Still - Bijudama Barrage, Tatsumaki, Ink Sealing and solid chakra advantage are pretty scary. Imo - Killer B needs a good knowledge to decisively win this one.

_KCM Naruto_ - depends on Kyubi's friendship rating. If it is KCM-restricted current Naruto - he wins after a long fight. If it is start of War Arc Naruto - he loses due to inconsistent chakra. Naruto needs a free pass on TKB spam to win this imo. And genjutsu-partner to counter Frog Song wouldn't hurt too.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Scenario 2: Full for the opponent, none for the _Sannin_. Jiraiya starts in SM.



_Hashirama

Madara(VotE and up)

Naruto(BM and up)

Sasuke(EMS)_ - no knowledge helps him more than SM helps Jiraiya. 

_Itachi(healthy and up)_ - lol, no knowledge on Sharingan. Genjutsu, gg. Full knowledge for Itachi helps too. With both parties lacking knowledge it becomes 50/50. Hebi-Sasuke-fight Itachi is 50/50. No knowledge on Itachi is... very bad.

_ET Minato_ - living Minato lacks offense to win this one. SM-tough Jiraiya, two regenerators with high-chakra. He'd need a lot of Rasengans for them. While no knowledge allows some free-tagging - I don't think it would be enough. Oral Rebirth creates a new body altogether, Tsunade can freely cut/pluck out the tag from her body(debatable decision but possible). Orochimaru is a nightmare for Minato in general. Yamata no Jutsu needs Shiki Fujin, White Snake poison counters Hiraishin+Rasengan perfectly. BM Minato wins this with superior offense and stamina quite comfortably. 

_Danzo(with Koto)_ - 3 vs 1 becomes 2 vs 2. No knowledge Izanagi. lolBaku.

_Obito(One-Sharingan and up)_ - no knowledge on Kamui, gg.

_Nagato(Six Paths and up)_ - no knowledge on Pain, gg. Area free to wreck with CST and Chibaku Tensei(Sannin can't counter it). Six Paths is a bit debatable due to Jiraiya staring in SM but if Nagato plays it smart(Human Path with support on Tsunade/Oro, Preta+Asura to occupy J-Man, Cerberus to occupy summons) or busts out CT early - he can win. No knowledge on Rinnegan is bad, like I've said.

_Killer B_ - full knowledge calls for early Full Biju Mode and anticipation for anti-Bijudama measures. Too much firepower for Sannin to handle imo. 

Debatable:

_Sasuke(MS)_ - no knowledge makes him pretty deadly but he lacks Itachi's lethality(Tsukuyomi, Totsuka) and(more importantly) brains to utilize his advantages. He was acting pretty retarded back in Kage Summit Arc. Still, a case can be made. 

_Kabuto(SM)_ - no knowledge stops Orochimaru from trolling him but Kabuto still lacks reliable offense. Muki Tensei and Chakra Scalpels are decent but Tsunade/Oro can regen from worse. White Rage and Muteki Onsa usage is the key here imo. But he needs to play it smart and safe. And he can pretty retarded too - especially against "Orochimaru-sama" who he wanted to surpass and Tsunade who he wanted to beat back in P1. 

_Mu/Onoki_ - if they play it really smart and score with their first Jinton each of them might be able to win.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Bonus: Change Tsunade to BD Tsunade.


 Lol. Only Hashirama, Madara, BM Naruto, Koto Danzo(no knowledge) and Obito can win then.


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## 2Broken (Sep 5, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Not really, Sannin are nothing special anymore.



I think they are.



Kyokan said:


> Tsunade is just mid-tier Kage level, SM Jiraiya is the strongest of the three and Orochimaru is somewhere of a middle ground between them, excluding Edo Tensei.



I wouldn't say the Sannin lose just because of what tier you believe them to be in, especially when they are working together.



Kyokan said:


> With frogs as support and FTG, the Sannin will never touch Minato. As soon as one of them is tagged he can send a Liger Bomb level Rasengan into their skulls.



Alive Minato simply cannot solo the Sannin. Sure he is the fastest ninja that ever lived, but come on there is a limit on what speed can give you. Him using a toad while battling Jiraiya is funny and he can't even kill Orochimaru unless he kills himself. Sage Jiraiya tanks his rasengans and anything short of taking Taunade's head off leaves her alive. Minato can escape if he fights the Sannin, but that is it.



Kyokan said:


> EMS Sasuke can mow them down with mass Enton spam and arrow spam never giving Orochimaru the time to use Edo Tensei or Jiraiya the time to use Sage Mode.



That is why I said EMS Sasuke gets the closest to actually beating them. The thing you have to think about though is that Sasuke will have to Sussano camp for this to even be a match. Amateratsu can be countered In many ways by the Sannin. Jiraiya's hair can bolck amateratsu , seeing that he can manipulate it and even shoot it off, Jiraiya and Orochimaru can use Kage bushin, all three can summon block, Jiraiya can seal it and Orochimaru can shed amateratsu off. Those where the counters I could think up on the fly. While all Sasuke can do to survive most of their attacks is camp in Sussano. 



Kyokan said:


> Same for Edo Itachi, except unlike Sasuke he was unlimited stamina so mass Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi/Susanoo spam ends the three *fodders*.



Katsuya on shoulder ruins Tsukiyomi and his amateratsu spam is nothing like Sasuke's. He has to Sussano camp too and once they get him through there its a wrap.



Kyokan said:


> And don't get me started on full power KCM Naruto and Nagato, they'd plasters 2 Sannins.



KCM Naruto is arguably Stronger than Nagato, so yeah I agree they could both do it.

Smh I think we need a Sannin respect thread. People think they are fodder and that alive Minato could solo them.....


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 5, 2013)

Elia said:


> The Irony.
> 
> and no, Itachi is no where near the level to solo all three, and thinking that you make him
> able to do so is laughable in fact.




Perhaps you didn't notice but many of those people were talking about living Itachi and Minato. Itachi while alive does not have the stamina to compete with those three however while in Edo form hes does. Edo form also makes up for his other short  comings such as no disease and degrading eye sight


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## FlamingRain (Sep 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> One of her fans claimed that since Madara failed to kill Tsunade in battle (Madara was the strongest character by far at the time), Tsunade was now canonically immortal in battle. _Immortal._



. . .I'm not sure I was a member here whenever that was. So I'm not sure what to say, although I haven't come across that since I've been here.



> Tsunade packs the physical strength necessary to kill the Raikage in her pinkie.
> 
> There is no speed difference between Tsunade and Gai.



Tsunade's pinkie is death

Where have you seen this? Or is this also an example from before I joined? (Which was in February btw,  I started coming to the BD in March) Because I remember people suggesting that Raikage could tank one of Tsunade's strikes (though I disagreed with it), not be killed by her pinkie.



> She can hit Minato.



This isn't ridiculous, people only find it hard to believe because they like to think of _Hiraishin_ as some sort of unconditional win card that it never was simply because Minato is the one using it. A faster character is not guaranteed to avoid _everything_ a slower character comes at them with ever, especially when said faster character would take forever and a half to kill said slower character assuming they didn't tire themselves out first in the process, and when they fight _in melee range_.


*Spoiler*: __ 



And _Hiraishin_ can be predicted as per canon, Tsunade _specializes in_ doing that. Tsunade is familiar with Minato. It isn't preposterous to figure that Tsunade could eventually catch onto his pattern and hit him if kid Bee who just met Minato for the first time ever did just that, especially if he tries to slap her with a _Rasengan_ or something, since that jutsu grinds for a moment and we've seen what can happen during that time with Naruto. Tsunade's resilience is as far above Kabuto's as Minato's _Rasengan_ is Naruto's. Spreading seals against a woman who makes the ground her bitch is also troublesome to begin with.






You and me have been over Minato and the Sannin before, though.



> She can regenerate from complete cellular destruction and continue to fight efficiently.
> [/LIST]



Is this referring to Deidara's _C4_? Because if it is I'm pretty sure that the argument was that her regeneration would keep her from being completely destroyed in the first place, not bring her back from being completely destroyed.

And I have never seen _anyone_ suggest she could tank _Jinton_ at all. Are you sure it wasn't talking about a partial hit or something, like her arm?



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Well, considering that I've seen more hardcore Tsunade wankers than haters, I'm not so sure about this conclusion. And you seem to be quoting the Tsunade haters. Most of the Forum seems to try to retaliate from the wank.
> 
> And to me it isn't about how many wankers/haters there are. As long as they post often, there might as well be 10 of them. And just because she doesn't have that many wankers doesn't mean that we should ignore her wankers, either.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 You're talking about me, aren't you? 




I think the hate is what sparks such zealous support of Tsunade in the first place as opposed to the hate coming in response to any wank.

And I didn't say ignore, I said get over; as in deal with, not pretend it isn't there.


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## lonesome devil (Sep 5, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Definitely do: (100%)
> 
> - *Juubito*
> - *BM + SM Naruto*
> ...



good but if killer bee almost killed ms sasuke and taka he should be 65-70%


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## LostSelf (Sep 5, 2013)

The same. Hashi, Naruto, Sage Mode Kabuto, Nagato, Edo Itachi since he has no way of being sealed.

BD Tsunade? Toon Deva.


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## Dusk Soldier (Sep 5, 2013)

Can't believe I'm the first person to mention Hanzo. The guy that gave them the title Sannin for simply lasting in battle vs. him.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 5, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> . . .I'm not sure I was a member here whenever that was. So I'm not sure what to say, although I haven't come across that since I've been here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about you in specific, but now I am. Do you honestly believe Tsunade can hit Minato?  Minato would just run around her singing "Can't Touch This" and would just knock her head off with a Kunai or Rasengan. And even if I go by your version of Tsunade, Minato has a high knowledge of sealing jutsu. Minato is leagues above her, with or without BM or KCM. Minato outruns top tier speedsters. There is absolutely no doubt he can dodge her attacks.


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## Devil Child (Sep 5, 2013)

Dusk Soldier said:


> Can't believe I'm the first person to mention Hanzo. The guy that gave them the title Sannin for simply lasting in battle vs. him.



Well, he definitely didnt fight the Sannin at their prime.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> . . .I'm not sure I was a member here whenever that was. So I'm not sure what to say, although I haven't come across that since I've been here.



Legendary Beauty. 




> Because I remember people suggesting that Raikage could tank one of Tsunade's strikes (though I disagreed with it), not be killed by her pinkie.



Many have claimed all Tsunade would need is a graze to down Ei. I was the one defending the Raikage, suggesting he could block them.



> This isn't ridiculous, people only find it hard to believe because they like to think of _Hiraishin_ as some sort of unconditional win card that it never was simply because Minato is the one using it.



Hiraishin, plus Minato's Chakra control allowing him to use it so skilfully, and Minato's naturally advanced reflexes make him near impossible to touch.  No one here has called it an auto-win. 



> A faster character is not guaranteed to avoid _everything_ a slower character comes at them with ever, especially when said faster character would take forever and a half to kill said slower character assuming they didn't tire themselves out first in the process, and when they fight _in melee range_.



This isn't really true. If you have a great enough speed advantage, you can indefinitely dodge. Remember Gohan against Roid-Rage Cell, or even the latter half of Trunk's fight with Cell? 

For an example in Naruto, Ei and Minato have battled many times, yet Ei _never_ connected with Minato (one hit would be plenty to knock Minato out and win). Ei's a hell of a lot faster than Tsunade, probably just as skilled hand to hand, and just as hard to kill when one's offense caps at Rasengan/Kunai.



> And _Hiraishin_ can be predicted as per canon, Tsunade _specializes in_ doing that. Tsunade is familiar with Minato. It isn't preposterous to figure that Tsunade could eventually catch onto his pattern and hit him if kid Bee who just met Minato for the first time ever did just that, especially if he tries to slap her with a _Rasengan_ or something, since that jutsu grinds for a moment and we've seen what can happen during that time with Naruto. Tsunade's resilience is as far above Kabuto's as Minato's _Rasengan_ is Naruto's. Spreading seals against a woman who makes the ground her bitch is also troublesome to begin with.



Predicting Hiraishin has never worked for the Raikage, only Bee, whom Tsunade is not. Minato doesn't follow a pattern. There's nothing for Tsunade to catch onto before her head rolls.

Ei's resilience is above Tsunade's, and his durability makes up for her regeneration. He can also devastate the ground with strength, and finish Minato in one blow (his strength has damaged Susano'o). 




> Is this referring to Deidara's _C4_? Because if it is I'm pretty sure that the argument was that her regeneration would keep her from being completely destroyed in the first place, not bring her back from being completely destroyed.



That bombs would exhaust her stamina. 



> And I have never seen _anyone_ suggest she could tank _Jinton_ at all. Are you sure it wasn't talking about a partial hit or something, like her arm?



I have. Matto or someone, but I have.


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## Bringer (Sep 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I generalized. The Katsuyu example was actually a more mild one; Tsunade's "wank", or overestimation, was incredibly bad at times.
> 
> One of her fans claimed that since Madara failed to kill Tsunade in battle (Madara was the strongest character by far at the time), Tsunade was now canonically immortal in battle. _Immortal._ This poster believed adamantly that Hebi Sasuke could never kill Tsunade ever because Madara didn't.
> 
> ...



1. I believe I remember this instance, and I believe the popular opinion was the Raikage could tank one hit, but it'd do enough damage to him injuring him to the point where Tsunade could land another easier. One fans hyperbole shouldn't account for everyone.

2. I've never seen a fan suggest this, fans have only said that she could keep up with Gai. For example, I believe that Gai is faster and a better taijutsu master than Tsunade, however I don't believe it'd be a lolblitz. Base Gai doesn't have the most impressive speed feats, and Tsunade could hold her own against him. One thing to note is with regeneration Tsunade heals all of her injuries, while Gai slowly weakens. Plus Gai has to throw blocking out of the window when it comes to combating Tsunade. However I do agree that gates could speed blitz Tsunade, but with the combination of regeneration, resilience, durability, and Katsuyu Tsunade could easily outlast Gai's gated forms and end him once he's out of gas, in a battle of stamina I say Tsunade would be a victor. Tsunade vs Gai is a completely debatable battle, and it's ludicrous to say Tsunade doesn't stand a chance.

3. Again besides hype, Minato doesn't really have astounding base speed feats. The only one I recall was saving Kushina before Kyuubi claw crushed her. All other impressive feats were done via FTG. Now unlike Gai, the speed gap is bigger, however I believe Tsunade's skill in close combat is superior to Minato's. Add in what I said in the Gai discussion, stamina, regeneration, blocking not an option, and Minato would have a hard time. Plus I hate to bring this up, but Minato has nothing in his arsenal to kill Katsuyu. Rasengan and kunai wouldn't damage that slug, his only hope is suicide tech, and Katsuyu could always divide it's body to save itself. Now portrayel wise, if Katsuyu and Minato were to fight in the manga Minato would pull out a jutsu out of his ass to defeat the slug easily, but feat wise he has nothing that can defeat it. So even though outlandish, Minato wouldn't be able to harm Katsuyu and would eventually wear down. Regardless I agree that current Kyuubi Minato would defeat Katsuyu and Tsunade with low-mid difficulty.

4. I remember the C4 discussion, wasn't the argument that she could regenerate just as fast as her body was being destroyed, and the debate came down to can C4 destroy Tsunade faster than she could regenerate. Now that she'd be blown to bits and magically reform. Regarding Jinton, I'm with you. No way Tsunade could regenerate from such a technique. Possibly if it hit part of her body, but if she was completely vaporized she's done for.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 5, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> 1. I believe I remember this instance, and I believe the popular opinion was the Raikage could tank one hit, but it'd do enough damage to him injuring him to the point where Tsunade could land another easier. One fans hyperbole shouldn't account for everyone.
> 
> 2. I've never seen a fan suggest this, fans have only said that she could keep up with Gai. For example, I believe that Gai is faster and a better taijutsu master than Tsunade, however I don't believe it'd be a lolblitz. Base Gai doesn't have the most impressive speed feats, and Tsunade could hold her own against him. One thing to note is with regeneration Tsunade heals all of her injuries, while Gai slowly weakens. Plus Gai has to throw blocking out of the window when it comes to combating Tsunade. However I do agree that gates could speed blitz Tsunade, but with the combination of regeneration, resilience, durability, and Katsuyu Tsunade could easily outlast Gai's gated forms and end him once he's out of gas, in a battle of stamina I say Tsunade would be a victor. Tsunade vs Gai is a completely debatable battle, and it's ludicrous to say Tsunade doesn't stand a chance.
> 
> ...


Minato is a master of Fuinjutsu. With that hype, he should be able to seal away Katsuyu. And do you think Tsunade can hit Minato?


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## Bringer (Sep 5, 2013)

In the BD we don't use hype sadly. Regardless Minato hasn't shown an actually sealing technique that could even seal away Katsuyu, however if the fight were to happen in the manga I have no doubt one would be pulled out of his ass.

About Tsunade vs Minato, I don't believe she could get a solid hit on him. I just believe she is skilled enough to avoid any attacks that are aimed towards her head, and smart enough to counter FTG. However not counting edo Minato's recent Kyuubi power up, I believe Tsunade could outlast him in the stamina department. She's also extremely resilient and does have some decent durability feats. Add that up with regeneration, and as Minato gets worn out using rasengans and FTG, Tsunade will still have plenty of chakra to spare. 

Eventually Minato will be worn out to the point where Tsunade could graze him[considering a finger created a fissure, a graze would do significant damage]  and while grazing him won't kill him, it'd leave him injured enough for Tsunade to have an easier time landing another blow.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2013)

Yeah. Ay isn't tanking shit from Tsunade ,when she was creating fissures with her finger back in part 1.

In part 2 she was cracking Sussano with a single hit, and busting it with the next. Ay got pierced near 3 inches with a mere Chidori. Tsunade is punching through him.

Unless he somehow with the Aid of lighting cloak has more durabilty then Sussano, then his body is going to end up like Sussano.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> About Tsunade vs Minato, I don't believe she could get a solid hit on him. I just believe she is skilled enough to avoid any attacks that are aimed towards her head, and smart enough to counter FTG.



While I don't doubt that Tsunade is intelligent, I do believe it's a stretch to say that Tsunade can counter Flying Thunder God Technique. Minato is much, much faster than she is, meaning that should she attempt to land a strike, he has every opportunity in the world to tag her with the seal that allows him to teleport instantaneously to her location.

Meaning, whenever he wishes, Minato warps right above her and throws a Rasengan directly to her skull. And she isn't reacting.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 5, 2013)

To be honest, it's debateable whether Tsunade could activate her Seal before Minato kills her.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 5, 2013)

Tsunade can clap her hands as fast as any of his kunai fly her way. Come on now.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I wasn't talking about you in specific, but now I am.



I was playing around with that, but okay.



> Do you honestly believe Tsunade can hit Minato?



_"Can"_? Yes.



> And even if I go by your version of Tsunade, Minato has a high knowledge of sealing jutsu.



And that is exactly why after doing a similar deal to her that he does to Orochimaru he'll whip out _Shiki Fūjin_ and draw it. Or win at the cost of his own life, whichever way you prefer to word it.



> Minato outruns top tier speedsters.



Minato with _Hiraishin_ seals already prepared can evade top tier speedsters. The seal placement is what matters, which Tsunade is aware of and knows to look out for, and that becomes a lot less reliable when your opponent is tossing around melee-nukes and messing the placement up. Or summons a one-slug armada to douse the seals with acid. He can warp them away if he's used _Keiyaku Fūin_ on Tsunade, but that'd take some time to do considering how many there are and a whole lot of seals should be gone.

Minato cannot _"outrun"_ shrouded Ay as far as _actual movement_ is concerned.



> There is absolutely no doubt he can dodge her attacks.



Obviously.

Unless by _"dodge"_ you mean _indefinitely and flawlessly while he is attacking by repeatedly putting himself within her immediate striking range_, for as long as it's going to take to tire her out; in which case I've got some doubt for you right here. (And its hard for me to think he has more energy than a Senju/Uzumaki with two different chakra stores in the first place.)



Rocky said:


> Legendary Beauty.



Wait I've seen her before in the Library!

Gotta love her! pek



> Many have claimed all Tsunade would need is a graze to down Ei. I was the one defending the Raikage, suggesting he could block them.



If they have, it wasn't in the thread we were debating in, but alright.



> Hiraishin, plus Minato's Chakra control allowing him to use it so skilfully, and Minato's naturally advanced reflexes make him near impossible to touch.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 I'm just going to remind you before you get to the rest of this that I've already said Minato would take the majority against one of the Sannin in your _Edo Hiruzen and Edo Minato vs The Sannin_ thread. 




His chakra control? If he can use it he can use it, I think his planning ability determines how skillfully he goes about its usage.

_"*Near* impossible"_ because most ninja wouldn't have nearly as many tries at doing it, since Kunai slashes and _Rasengans_ are actually dangerous to normal body peoples without super regen. Or that stupid one-slug army that you can stab a million times and not actually kill that can go and acid rape his tags. Or absorb them and BFR herself. (And no, I was not the one who said Katsuyu would beat Minato.)

It isn't like I'm saying she can actively _chase him down_ or something.



> This isn't really true. If you have a great enough speed advantage, you can indefinitely dodge. Remember Gohan against Roid-Rage Cell, or even the latter half of Trunk's fight with Cell?



You love bringing up DBZ scenes I hated, don't you? 



> For an example in Naruto, Ei and Minato have battled many times, yet Ei _never_ connected with Minato (one hit would be plenty to knock Minato out and win). Ei's a hell of a lot faster than Tsunade, probably just as skilled hand to hand, and just as hard to kill when one's offense caps at Rasengan/Kunai.



Tsunade connected with Jiraiya and he's still alive. 

The translation I read only said "on more than one occasion", which for all I know could mean they clashed like twice, but I won't get into that because we do not know the details of those encounters, and the fact that Ay is just as hard to kill as Tsunade using Minato's offense and has Hachibi level chakra reserves has to outlast with certainty, and has also survived each of those encounters, suggest to me that it's very likely didn't just go toe-to-toe in close quarters all day. Minato could have gone after allies again, or he could have retreated again after breaking his Kunai on the shroud or something. We don't know. They may have butted heads politically some of those times.

To be honest, in terms of _pure skill_ I'd rate Tsunade a bit higher than Ay.

Ay's _Shunshin_ is a whole lot faster than Tsunade's, yes. That's totally irrelevant to his striking speed against someone already within melee range. Those huge, wound up, strength-oriented swings are not faster than the Hokage's own strikes.



> Predicting Hiraishin has never worked for the Raikage, only Bee, whom Tsunade is not. Minato doesn't follow a pattern.



She also isn't Ay, and every sentient life-form has a pattern. The tactic not working for someone like Ay who in comparison relies more on raw reflex doesn't mean it won't work for Tsunade who actually specializes in prediction, and again, that was kid Bee's first time ever seeing Minato, whilst Tsunade is apparently familiar with him and his fighting style given the fact that she was able to weigh Naruto's fighting style between his own and Kushina's, as well as compare Naruto's _Rasengan_ to Minato's own.

Tsunade's anticipatory skills are above Ay's own anyway, which we saw when she was able to deflect Madara's Katon flurry before he moved to act because she was actually intuitive enough to determine where those flames would be and when much more efficiently than he was.

I also think that Minato going for Bee next instead of Ay could actually be a signal that he thought Ay might catch him if he tried going at it with him again. One-on-one, where Minato has no little brother to target, for all we know Ay vs. Minato could have turned into some epic game of tag as opposed to another close-quarters skirmish.



> *Ei's resilience is above Tsunade's*, and his durability makes up for her regeneration.



. . .Wat? 

Ay has not a single feat that would suggest his resilience is even comparable to, let alone _above_, Tsunade's.

Fighting through _Amaterasu_ burning away at his very thick arm-bangle covered in lightning and cutting off his arm does not put his resilience near hers.

Look at the injury Madara inflicted that put Ay down for the count and look at the should-have-been-immediate-death-injury Madara inflicted that Tsunade performed a boss summoning and chakra transfer through _to save Ay_.

Ay is very resilient, but not Tsunade resilient.



> He can also devastate the ground with strength, and finish Minato in one blow (his strength has damaged Susano'o).



He _can_, I guess. He _doesn't_ though, and he can't do it to the same extent as Tsunade.

To my knowledge, besides walking through walls Ay has only ever altered the environment while performing _Liger Bomb_, which was not an attempt to alter the environment for the purpose of messing anyone up, but rather an attempt to crush Sasuke who he _already had his hands on_ which simply had enough leftover force to alter the environment as a side-effect. We can even look at his daddy for an example; Sandaime'd have been able to deal with the alliance fodder a lot easier had he just busted the ground but instead he went to hit each of them directly.

Conversely, we've seen both Tsunade and her student intentionally alter the landscape in order to affect their opponents before, against Naruto, Kabuto and Orochimaru, and Kakashi, potentially in addition to a crapton of Juubling fodder.



> That bombs would exhaust her stamina.



Yes I think so, too. We already agreed on this the last time we discussed the possibility of her survival.



> I have. Matto or someone, but I have.



Interesting. I think the jutsu's description itself virtually tells us that she couldn't survive a direct hit from _Jinton_, since she would have nothing to replicate and regrow from.


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> 2. I've never seen a fan suggest this, fans have only said that she could keep up with Gai.



This happened. And i have the link around. There were instances were people said that she would speed blitz Gai. But that was not coming from a notable poster.

Now i support Rocky's example about Madara not killing her so she's practically inmortal. It played out exactly the same as genjutsu. Madara never attempted to put her = She's extremely hard to be put in.

So the counter argument was, and i recall correctly: "Do you think that Sasuke is equal to Madara and his 25 Susano'os?".

I mean, she's not Itachi. Nothing beats him sealing galactus or a thread made about him for every word he said. But she's hell close.

And i agree she's underrated too. This that she's not kage level, being a Hokage...


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## FlamingRain (Sep 6, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Now i support Rocky's example about Madara not killing her so she's practically inmortal. *It played out exactly the same as genjutsu. Madara never attempted to put her = She's extremely hard to be put in.*



Wait a moment. . . .you made a library thread about this. 

I couldn't respond because I was on my phone at the time.

Madara tried to kill her on-panel though and he failed. He failed even with his off-panel rampage that would have killed all of the other Kages if it weren't for Tsunade herself.

That = she is extremely hard to kill. At this point denial that Tsunade is extremely hard to kill is blatantly full of BS.

Madara _may or may not_ have tried to put her in a Genjutsu (I think he would have, but whateves).

So that's true, that doesn't necessarily = she's extremely hard to be put in.



> I mean, she's not Itachi. Nothing beats him sealing galactus or a thread made about him for every word he said. But she's hell close.



How could she be close when people think Itachi can solo the Sannin collectively?


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade can clap her hands as fast as any of his kunai fly her way. Come on now.



Of course, but what happens when she throws an attack? He can evade, make physical contact, place the seal, and proceed to rain hell on her.


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## Ersa (Sep 6, 2013)

Edo Itachi can actually solo the Sannin collectively though.

I think people underestimate unlimited Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi spam, unlimited clone potential and final Susanoo with the Imperial Treasures who is more than capable of tanking anything the Sannin can throw at it bar Edo Tensei. Also yeah Itachi's faster and smarter than any of the Sannin too. The only way the Sannin win is if they have full knowledge and Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode. Other they get murked.


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Wait a moment. . . .you made a library thread about this.
> 
> I couldn't respond because I was on my phone at the time.



Yeah, but not because of her only. Because visual genjutsu went down the toilet. Now any kage could dodge it just because they are "kage". Especially when kages have been put in genjutsu easily. And people like Kabuto had to cover his eyes to avoid it.



> Madara tried to kill her on-panel though and he failed. He failed even with his off-panel rampage that would have killed all of the other Kages if it weren't for Tsunade herself.
> 
> That = she is extremely hard to kill. At this point denial that Tsunade is extremely hard to kill is blatantly full of BS.



Madara was playing around. He could've stomped them with ease. I give her credit for being hard to kill against a non serious Madara. But no more than that.. 

And she's hard to kill, but my point was not that. My point was that people believed that she was inmortal against any other because Madara didn't kill her. 



> Madara _may or may not_ have tried to put her in a Genjutsu (I think he would have, but whateves).
> 
> So that's true, that doesn't necessarily = she's extremely hard to be put in.



I believe Madara put Ei in genjutsu because he was blocking all of his Susano'o attacks. And the only way to put him down was that. Or outlast him.



> How could she be close when people think Itachi can solo the Sannin collectively?



I've seen such things my friend. Things you should never know .

But i wasn't talking in that way exactly. I was talking about the amount of time X character gets wanked to the point of making it much stronger than it is. But like i said, nothing beats sealing galactus.


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## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> His chakra control? If he can use it he can use it, I think his planning ability determines how skillfully he goes about its usage.



Hiraishin isn't normally used like Minato & Tobirama use it. They're beasts. 

When normal Shinobi apply the technique, it takes multiple people holding hands.



> _"*Near* impossible"_ because most ninja wouldn't have nearly as many tries at doing it, since Kunai slashes and _Rasengans_ are actually dangerous to normal body peoples without super regen.



The same would apply to Ei, who could still never hit Minato.



> You love bringing up DBZ scenes I hated, don't you?







> The translation I read only said "on more than one occasion", which for all I know could mean they clashed like twice, but I won't get into that because we do not know the details of those encounters, and the fact that Ay is just as hard to kill as Tsunade using Minato's offense and has Hachibi level chakra reserves has to outlast with certainty, and has also survived each of those encounters, suggest to me that it's very likely didn't just go toe-to-toe in close quarters all day. Minato could have gone after allies again, or he could have retreated again after breaking his Kunai on the shroud or something. We don't know. They may have butted heads politically some of those times.



The viz states they "clashed several times." We do not need to know the details of the fight either, as we know Ei can floor Minato with one hit, yet still, Minato was superior enough that Ei figured the Hokage could never be beaten. 



> To be honest, in terms of _pure skill_ I'd rate Tsunade a bit higher than Ay.



Based on which feats exactly. Disarming Preskip Naruto? Pressuring Part 1 Kabuto?



> Ay's _Shunshin_ is a whole lot faster than Tsunade's, yes. That's totally irrelevant to his striking speed against someone already within melee range. Those huge, wound up, strength-oriented swings are not faster than the Hokage's own strikes.



It's a good thing people can strike while still using the body flicker.



> She also isn't Ay, and every sentient life-form has a pattern. The tactic not working for someone like Ay who in comparison relies more on raw reflex doesn't mean it won't work for Tsunade who actually specializes in prediction.



Tsunade isn't a prediction specialist. She isn't physic. You cannot specialize in prediction unless you have some means to see into the future. 

Mangekyou Obito couldn't predict Minato's use of Hiraishin, even though the Sharingan can read physical movements. How on earth will Tsunade?



> Tsunade's anticipatory skills are above Ay's own anyway, which we saw when she was able to deflect Madara's Katon flurry before he moved to act because she was actually intuitive enough to determine where those flames would be and when much more efficiently than he was.



False. Ei anticipated Amaterasu, and dodged. That trumps anticipating Madara's Fire Style and blocking.

You're massively fluffing up that Tsunade feat. We saw Madara preform an overt Katon Ninjutsu, and Tsunade use her body as a shield because she could regenerate. There was no "determining where they would be." She just jumped in front beause she could regenerate and the others could not.



> One-on-one, where Minato has no little brother to target, for all we know Ay vs. Minato could have turned into some epic game of tag as opposed to another close-quarters skirmish.



Ei is clearly below Minato, so I'm unsure of how epic it would truly be.



> Look at the injury Madara inflicted that put Ay down for the count and look at the should-have-been-immediate-death-injury Madara inflicted that Tsunade performed a boss summoning and chakra transfer through _to save Ay_.
> 
> Ay is very resilient, but not Tsunade resilient.



Point taken. I concede to that.



> He _can_, I guess. He _doesn't_ though.



If it would've helped him in his many failures against Minato, I'm sure he would've.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 6, 2013)

Mother. . .FFFFFFF.

My tl;dr post. Gone. 

I'm too tired to retype it right now. I will be back in the morning, Rocky.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

> Ay has not a single feat that would suggest his resilience is even comparable to, let alone above, Tsunade's.



Ei took Mabui's teleport with no damage, while Tsunade took damage.  They're not worlds apart in durability, but he's definitely better.

Oh, on topic.  Hmm.

Hashirama, Madara, Jubito, Kamui Kakashi.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Sep 6, 2013)

The list of people who can beat SM Jiraiya alone is a very short one. Adding in Orochimaru and Tsunade to that? You've got a handful of names, if that. Gama Rinsho, Kawazu Naki, Gamayu Endan, Mandara no Jin, Yamata, Kusanagi, Tsunade's ridiculous healing abilities+chakra enhanced strength+Zesshi Nensan?

Good luck


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## kupochan (Sep 6, 2013)

obito, madara, hashirama, bm minato, bm naruto


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 6, 2013)

*Scenario 1:* Hashirama, Madara, Itachi, Obito, Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato and Kabuto

*Scenario 2:* Same as above... Perhaps Killer Bee/Minato


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## J★J♥ (Sep 6, 2013)

Mada & Hashirama and everyone below them are going to *get fucked by frog song** including Edo versions*. 
Only one who can solo them is Juubito.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> They're not worlds apart in durability, but he's definitely better.



True, but. . .I was talking about _resilience_.



Rocky said:


> When normal Shinobi apply the technique, it takes multiple people holding hands.



Point taken.



> We do not need to know the details of the fight either, as we know Ei can floor Minato with one hit.



We need to know the details _*if* we're going to start naming off what won't work based on it_.

It didn't work on-panel because Minato _went for somebody else_. Ay was not being attacked anymore. For all we know, he simply kept away from Ay in much the same way in each of their other encounters, so Minato having lived through those encounters does not mean that he can't be predicted, that's canonically incorrect because of someone who actually lacks any magic eyes, and it certainly doesn't mean Minato can't be outlasted.

He can play keep away with Tsunade, too, but that won't win him anything, because both combatants would live to tell the tale in that case.



> Based on which feats exactly.



Based on the fact that she could have only regained what touch she had lost across that huge retirement period by now, and use of at least two different Taijutsu styles between her practice of avoiding hits _whilst using that same motion_ to position herself into attacking positions and maneuver from very awkward positions to fight, and the other practice centered around utilizing her durability and resilience to run through her enemy's offense. Ay has one style banking on speed and durability to punch out or grab his enemy, while choreographing like no other when he strikes and actually suffering from the momentum of his swings to such a point that he pretty much always crashes into something afterward well beyond the original position of his target. When he does dodge, he goes well out of his way (he can get back really fast though, so not likely that's an actual issue for him).

Look at _Tsūtenkyaku_ and compare it to _Guillotine Drop_. The position that very, very rusty Tsunade put her body into and her subsequent shift would have maximized the amount of force she exerted with the impact of her heel more efficiently than Ay's. This is what you call a difference in skill. The Hokage's precision, flexibility, and fluidity eclipse the Raikage's own.

What I'm basically saying is that Ay has more wasted movements. He is quite honestly a glorified wrestler. A powerful, very effective one, but still. . .



> It's a good thing people can strike while still using the body flicker.



Unless Ay is going to _Shunshin_ at Minato when he appears already less than an arm's length away, though, (and I don't think he will) it hardly matters.



> You cannot specialize in prediction unless you have some means to see into the future.



Psychic*? 

You do not need the _Sharingan_ to specialize in prediction, all you need is to be very observant and intuitive. Tsunade _is_ a prediction specialist, she even drilled some measure of this into freaking Sakura. She didn't have the _Sharingan_ when she was predicting _Satetsu_ assaults. Chiyo didn't either when she was predicting and evading Sasori's needles and _Satetsu_ assaults.

Bee can't see into the future, yet he was still able to determine where Minato would likely pop up and ready himself. Tsunade knows Minato better than Bee did at least at that point in time, and isn't as reliant upon raw reflex as someone like Ay.



> Mangekyou Obito couldn't predict Minato's use of Hiraishin, _even though the Sharingan can read physical movements._



Which is irrelevant since _Hiraishin_ is not physical movement. It cannot help you determine a pattern concerning the regularities of a person's actions. Intuitive anticipation is not limited to muscle tension like the _Sharingan_.



> Ei anticipated Amaterasu



I thought he just reacted normally in response to its actual appearance?

And just anticipating the fireball is not the point, I was getting at her doing it _before Ay_, who should have, if anything, been in better shape than she was (I mean she almost passed out right after that, and he's got Hachibi level chakraz). Ay's shroud does not enhance his anticipatory abilities, only his reflexiveness. Shrouded Ay is no more intuitive than the base Ay that Tsunade acted more quickly than.



> She just jumped in front beause she could regenerate and the others could not.



Projectiles follow certain trajectories, so yes there was "determining where they would be". I think that was even a question during the Chunin exams that freaked everyone out, but that may have been the anime idk.

Raikage could have straight up tanked it while the others, would have been hurt. And I'm not buying that everyone was just waiting on Tsunade, if that's what you're trying to sell me, because had that been the case Mei wouldn't have ever bothered with attempting that Suiton, and it isn't like they gave each other signals as to what they were about to do. So why didn't Ay move? Because maneuvering on raw reflexes instead of analyzing trajectories and patterns, _as most brawlers do_, results in only beginning to react once something is much closer, at which point they act instinctively.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> For all we know, he simply kept away from Ay in much the same way in each of their other encounters, so Minato having lived through those encounters does not mean that he can't be predicted, that's canonically incorrect because of someone who actually lacks any magic eyes, and it certainly doesn't mean Minato can't be outlasted.



Are you arguing that Minato never actually defeated Ei, and it was a stalemate?



> He can play keep away with Tsunade, too, but that won't win him anything, because both combatants would live to tell the tale in that case.



Or he can cut of her head with Hiraishin mastery and timing that can be apllied in the brief windows of Obito's Kamui.

My original point was that she would never touch him if he focused on evasion. If this is an actual fight, then Minato removes her head with the same quickness that defeated the likes of Obito & Ei.



> What I'm basically saying is that Ay has more wasted movements. He is quite honestly a glorified wrestler. A powerful, very effective one, but still. . .



Okay, what I got from all of that was basically that you know much more about hand to hand combat than I do. 

What I quoted however, was my point. Ei is a wrestler, and more skilled in that area than Tsunade. She's more skilled in he styles, which are more traditional. 

It's the same as me saying Gai is just as skilled as Hiashi, while Gai certainly can't shut down somebody's Chakra network with a few pokes. 



> Unless Ay is going to _Shunshin_ at Minato when he appears already less than an arm's length away, though, (and I don't think he will) it hardly matters.



Reflexes and physical speed still matter in close up hand to hand combat. Even if you strip Superman of his Super Strength, Durability, and just leave his speed, he could still tear the HST apart in a blink. 

Ei is still faster than Tsunade without Shunshin, and much more reflexive. Minato can deal with Ei's punches with Shunshin, so Tsunade will not be a problem. 



> You do not need the _Sharingan_ to specialize in prediction, all you need is to be very observant and intuitive. Tsunade _is_ a prediction specialist, she even drilled some measure of this into freaking Sakura. She didn't have the _Sharingan_ when she was predicting _Satetsu_ assaults. Chiyo didn't either when she was predicting and evading Sasori's needles and _Satetsu_ assaults.



Were Chiyo and Sakura predicting what Sasori would do? I don't think so. I think they were just reacting and evading. 



> Bee can't see into the future, yet he was still able to determine where Minato would likely pop up and ready himself.



Do you think Bee could've actually hit Minato there? 



> Tsunade knows Minato better than Bee did at least at that point in time, and isn't as reliant upon raw reflex as someone like Ay.



There is no evidence that Tsunade ever fought Minato. Also, Bee is more reflexive than Tsunade.



> Intuitive anticipation is not limited to muscle tension like the _Sharingan_.



Has Tsunade ever won a fight using these advanced anticipatory skills? 



> I thought he just reacted normally in response to its actual appearance?
> 
> And just anticipating the fireball is not the point, I was getting at her doing it _before Ay_, who should have, if anything, been in better shape than she was (I mean she almost passed out right after that, and he's got Hachibi level chakraz). Ay's shroud does not enhance his anticipatory abilities, only his reflexiveness. Shrouded Ay is no more intuitive than the base Ay that Tsunade acted more quickly than.



You can't react in response to the appearance of Amaterasu. It appears on its target.

Also, you do realize that reflexiveness is a mental attribute right? Ei's brain can perceive something and tell his body to move far sooner than Tsunade's can. Tsunade didn't anticipate that Madara would use Katon and prematurely jump in front to counter. She saw Madara use the Jutsu, and then jumped in front. That's not an anticipation feat, it's a reflex feat.

Why didn't Ei dodge? For the same reason that Gaara didn't sand wall, or that Onoki didn't erect rock golemn. Hell, there was a point in time where BM Naruto didn't dodge Shuriken and Bee protected him. 



> Because maneuvering on raw reflexes instead of analyzing trajectories and patterns, _as most brawlers do_, results in only beginning to react once something is much closer, at which point they act instinctively.



I could've sworn that when his body flicker failed to oneshot, Ei resorted to analyzing patterns. 

Relying on "raw reflex" also doesn't necessarily indicate that something has to come close.

You'd best stop trying to apply real world fighting to fictional Manga.  Ei doesn't rely on his instincts. He doesn't have to because his mental ability to witness an attack and and act accordingly happens so rapidly.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato, low diff.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 6, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Minato, low diff.


----------



## Bringer (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ei took Mabui's teleport with no damage, while Tsunade took damage.  They're not worlds apart in durability, but he's definitely better.




Resilience and durability is a bit different.

I agree, Ei is way more durable than Tsunade, but resilience wise Tsunade outshines him there.

Durability- The ability to withstand wear, pressure, or damage.

Resilience- The capacity to recover quickly from difficulties; toughness.

I like to think of resilience as pain tolerance, and getting up after taking a beating. While durability is attacks that would normally hurt regular people doesn't hurt you as much because your body is more sturdy.

Ei's best resilience feat is chopping off his own arm that was coated in black flames without batting an eyelash, indeed that is a good resilience feat, but I honestly find fighting five giant chakra constructs with two giant swords lodged into your abdomen a better resilience feat.


----------



## lonesome devil (Sep 6, 2013)

Dusk Soldier said:


> Can't believe I'm the first person to mention Hanzo. The guy that gave them the title Sannin for simply lasting in battle vs. him.


your not that was mention in another title knowing that why even call the names of all others powerful ninja:amazed


----------



## Tarot (Sep 6, 2013)

Obito
Madara
Hashirama
Naruto
Sasuke
I don't think Nagato would be able to handle to 2 senjutsu users and the world's greatest medic with 3 boss summons.

I can't count Kabuto Edo Minato since Edo tensei is restricted.


----------



## KibaforHokage (Sep 6, 2013)

I fail to see how Sasuke can take them.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you arguing that Minato never actually defeated Ei, and it was a stalemate?



Not really, though I'm saying we've no clue how it happened. I mean this isn't any different from saying Tsunade can't be killed by decapitation because she was alive despite Madara having knowledge on her being able to regenerate and wanting her dead.

Minato can be recognized as Ay's superior without having actually defeated him in particular, too.



> Or he can cut of her head with Hiraishin mastery and timing that can be apllied in the brief windows of Obito's Kamui.
> 
> My original point was that she would never touch him if he focused on evasion. If this is an actual fight, then Minato removes her head with the same quickness that defeated the likes of Obito & Ei.



. . . . . . .Assuming headshots are the limit of her regeneration (and I personally don't think it's likely that they are), Minato's best cutting feat is against a gelatinous tentacle. Orochimaru's legendary Kusanagi slashes didn't get past Tsunade's bones after digging into her flesh, despite being able to sting adamantine. Minato's kunai will meet with her bone and do to her what Shikamaru did to Hidan after his neck was weakened by having recently been sewn together by Kakuzu. 

That of course, also assumes he figures she can't be killed with a regular injury to the vitals. Or doesn't try to hit her with a _Rasengan_ and get the Naruto treatment (his _Rasengan_ still grinds like any other one, his being able to actually slam it against her faster doesn't change that). Because I doubt he'll be familiar with a regeneration jutsu Orochimaru and Jiraiya weren't familiar with.

Yes if Minato focused on evasion he could evade Tsunade, or anybody really. I've pretty much already said this in this very thread.



> What I quoted however, was my point. Ei is a wrestler, and more skilled in that area than Tsunade. She's more skilled in he styles, which are more traditional.



If only Ay had Tsunade's style. . .he'd have still been able to reach Minato on his back seeing as Tsunade could throw punches that way while the rest of her body is still facing forward as seen against Orochimaru. 



> Reflexes and physical speed still matter in close up hand to hand combat. Even if you strip Superman of his Super Strength, Durability, and just leave his speed, he could still tear the HST apart in a blink.
> 
> Ei is still faster than Tsunade without Shunshin, and much more reflexive. Minato can deal with Ei's punches with Shunshin, so Tsunade will not be a problem.



Undeniably.

_Striking speed_ that is. How fast he can _run_ wouldn't matter as far as actual close-combat is concerned. I maintain that the main purpose of speed for Taijutsu practitioners is getting into melee-range, after which striking speed and skill come into play.

Ay's _actual strikes_ are still the same ones Suigetsu and Jugo could deal with.



> Were Chiyo and Sakura predicting what Sasori would do?



I thought it was obvious.

Initially, Chiyo said that not knowing what trap would spring from where and how was the reason Sakura would need her help, not because the speed of the trap is that dang fast or anything. Chiyo could predict such a thing because she was familiar with it (she knows her grandson), hence she was capable of defending herself and Sakura.

Eventually, Chiyo said Sakura had deduced Sasori's patterns. Sakura even flashed back to Tsunade emphasizing the necessity of anticipating enemy attacks before thinking to herself that she could now tell the direction of the moves he was going to make because she had caught onto his regularities.

That isn't reflex, because if it was she'd have been able to hang without Chiyo's assistance at the beginning of the match, since Sasori didn't start slowing down and Sakura didn't suddenly speed up.

Obvious prediction is obvious. The difference is subtle, but very important.



> Do you think Bee could've actually hit Minato there?



Yep.

Being honest, too.

I mean, Minato could've warped elsewhere, but doing that means he'd be stopping his attack.



> There is no evidence that Tsunade ever fought Minato. Also, Bee is more reflexive than Tsunade.



She needn't actually fight him in order to be familiar with how he fights. Like I said, she seems to know quite a bit if she can tell that Naruto fights less like Minato and more like Kushina, and realize that Naruto's _Rasengan_ doesn't look like Minato's. She had the time to familiarize herself with him, too, since we see that Kakashi has grown up more prior to her self-imposed exile (she still had the necklace), and as popular as Minato was. . .

Also, she is observant as crap, glance at Orochi and know what's wrong with him (somehow), glance at Sakura's flowers in Sasuke's room and see that one is a day older than the other one (somehow).

Bee preparing that blade was not a reflex feat either, so. . .yeah. . .



> Has Tsunade ever won a fight using these advanced anticipatory skills?



Maybe if we saw her fight someone she'd have a hard time tracking by normal means?

We can speculate about Chiyo and the traps of her puppets, but that leads to the same problem as Minato versus Ay (us not knowing the details of the encounters besides Chiyo saying that she was embarrassed by her).



> You can't react in response to the appearance of Amaterasu. It appears on its target.



I'm pretty sure Amaterasu is just a plume that moves instead of something that just appears already on target. Otherwise it wouldn't have had the momentum to continue past Ay and catch the samurai.

Even if that is true that it actually appears on its target, it is still a flame, meaning the briefest of a brush wouldn't catch you on fire (example from the manga, Tsunade's hands not turning into fireballs when she smacked Madara's Katons, Minato warping without taking _Amaterasu_ with him).

I think if Ay's actions were actually pre-emptive the after-image he left would have been in the first panel, instead of appearing as though he began moving in the second panel _after_ the black flames had already showed up.

Pre-emptively dodging I think would be more similar to what we saw Hebi Sasuke do.



> Also, you do realize that reflexiveness is a mental attribute right? Ei's brain can perceive something and tell his body to move far sooner than Tsunade's can. Tsunade didn't anticipate that Madara would use Katon and prematurely jump in front to counter. She saw Madara use the Jutsu, and then jumped in front. That's not an anticipation feat, it's a reflex feat.



That's like saying someone on the track team can answer a question faster than the smartest person in the class simply because they can look at the words faster.

In this instance, for people who can't just cover a wide area because they rely on their bodies, there was a problem to be solved before they moved: where the Katon would be at based on how it was moving at what angle. It is similar to the problem with the traps of puppeteers. More conscious thought was required, that is not what reflex is. Enhanced reflex = / = enhanced thought processing.

And I can tell you that I don't have to consciously think when I move back from somebody trying to strike me during a match, but I'd have to if I were trying to _intercept_ a projectile flying at an angle (what spot do I jump to and how soon becomes more important, etc.)

This was not a matter of reflex.



> Why didn't Ei dodge? For the same reason that Gaara didn't sand wall, or that Onoki didn't erect rock golemn.



Gaara's sand has been outpaced by  Deidara's bird, which was about even with Ohnoki's flight, and Tsunade crossed a larger distance than flying Ohnoki to launch a two-pronged attack alongside him against Madara's ribcage. At this point with the Katon, Ohnoki should have been out of chakra since he said he was almost out before Tsunade powered the gargantuan _Jinton_ cube, and I'd just assume that he used everything she gave him in that cube since it was their "last jutsu". Mei just couldn't do anything fast enough.



> I could've sworn that when his body flicker failed to oneshot, Ei resorted to analyzing patterns.



I could have sworn Minato went for somebody else so that he didn't chance getting caught. 



> Ei doesn't rely on his instincts.



"Unruly Ay", "Dunderhead Ay", etc.. . . .I hope you ain't insinuating he's normally one to look before he leaps.


----------



## Tarot (Sep 6, 2013)

KibaforHokage said:


> I fail to see how Sasuke can take them.


His abilities are quite deadly against the summon heavy style of the sanin. Amaterasu and flame control spam are a giant summons' worst nightmare. Not to mention, he can also control one of the summons with genjutsu. I wouldn't have said this a few months ago due to his limited mobility, but Aoda removes that weakness. Don't get me wrong, its still high diff for Sasuke at least.


----------



## tanman (Sep 7, 2013)

I can't see Edo Minato winning here. Orochimaru no doubt has a sealing method for Edos. Minato is smart, but his brain power by no means exceeds that of all three sennin working together (assuming they have even a modicum of knowledge). The problem for Minato is a complete lack of offense. Considering they all have excellent stamina and durability, the only way they really loose a member would be by using a powerful warpable technique.

Edo Itachi is likely also taken down through a combination of Tsunade's Susano'o punching and a well-placed ninjutsu from Jiraiya or Orochimaru. He'll be a tough cookie to crack all things considered, but I feel good about their chances. The Six Paths of Pain would likely be taken down by them as well.


Edo Nagato
BM Naruto
KCM Naruto
BSM Naruto
Hashirama
Edo Hashirama
Madara
Edo Madara
Rinnengan Obito
Juubito


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

tanman said:


> I can't see Edo Minato winning here. Orochimaru no doubt has a sealing method for Edos. Minato is smart, but his brain power by no means exceeds that of all three sennin working together (assuming they have even a modicum of knowledge). The problem for Minato is a complete lack of offense. Considering they all have excellent stamina and durability, the only way they really loose a member would be by using a powerful warpable technique.
> 
> Edo Itachi is likely also taken down through a combination of Tsunade's Susano'o punching and a well-placed ninjutsu from Jiraiya or Orochimaru. He'll be a tough cookie to crack all things considered, but I feel good about their chances. The Six Paths of Pain would likely be taken down by them as well.
> 
> ...


Um...Have you read the latest chapter? It might change your opinion.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Minato can be recognized as Ay's superior without having actually defeated him in particular, too.



If Minato had never defeated Ei, I highly doubt the Raikage would admit inferiority. This is speculation, but other scenarios don't seem plausible. 





> . . . . . . .Assuming headshots are the limit of her regeneration (and I personally don't think it's likely that they are), Minato's best cutting feat is against a gelatinous tentacle. Orochimaru's legendary Kusanagi slashes didn't get past Tsunade's bones after digging into her flesh, despite being able to sting adamantine. Minato's kunai will meet with her bone and do to her what Shikamaru did to Hidan after his neck was weakened by having recently been sewn together by Kakuzu.




Though I don't necessarily think so either, I'm going to have to ask for proof that Tsunade can regrow her head and continue to fight effectively.
Bijuu Limb that remined intact after Bijuudama explosion =/= Gelatinous Tentacle.
Kusanagi was swung by Orochimaru's neck. That's not going to be as powerful as Minato using his arm to swing his weighted Kunai.
If Mintato was really going to damage Ei (like everything in the Manga pointed to), then Tsunade's neck isn't tanking anything.



> That of course, also assumes he figures she can't be killed with a regular injury to the vitals. Or doesn't try to hit her with a _Rasengan_ and get the Naruto treatment (his _Rasengan_ still grinds like any other one, his being able to actually slam it against her faster doesn't change that). Because I doubt he'll be familiar with a regeneration jutsu Orochimaru and Jiraiya weren't familiar with.



He tends to attack from the flank, which she cannot do anything about. If she slammed into the ground like Obito was, she will _not_ be counter-attacking.




> If only Ay had Tsunade's style. . .he'd have still been able to reach Minato on his back seeing as Tsunade could throw punches that way while the rest of her body is still facing forward as seen against Orochimaru.



Ei would never hit Minato because Kishi would never let it happen. 



> I maintain that the main purpose of speed for Taijutsu practitioners is getting into melee-range, after which striking speed and skill come into play.
> 
> Ay's _actual strikes_ are still the same ones Suigetsu and Jugo could deal with.



Only Minato & RM Naruto have been able to deal with Ei's fastest punch. He uses his Shunshin to accelerate both his movement and striking speed (though he can only throw one accelerated punch).   

Juugo & Suigetsu dealt with Ei's not fastest striking speed for a few seconds, yeah.




> Chiyo could predict such a thing because she was familiar with it (she knows her grandson), hence she was capable of defending herself and Sakura.



That isn't really...prediction. Well, it's a form I suppose, though it's really has more to do with familiarity of an opponent than anything else. It's not like Chiyo can see the future. They're just educated guesses. 

Any smart Shinobi (Minato imo) would catch onto this and purposely change around their fighting patterns. That, honestly, is probably how Minato avoided being crushed by Ei in their many battles despite Ei learning of Hiraishin.



> Eventually, Chiyo said Sakura had deduced Sasori's patterns. Sakura even flashed back to Tsunade emphasizing the necessity of anticipating enemy attacks before thinking to herself that she could now tell the direction of the moves he was going to make because she had caught onto his regularities..



Yes I do see now. However:


Anticipating Minato is difficult, as Hiraishin gives him many more options than a normal man in a physical fight. For example, against the Raikage, a normal man would have one option: attempt to duck the Raikage's punch (he's too strong to guard). Minato however had 25 places he could've went.
Minato tends to end his battles quickly, which unmatched efficiency. He doesn't make many misakes. This doesn't leave alot of time for her to observe his regularities and devise and accurate prediction.
Yes, Bee did do it to an extent. But Bee got lucky honestly, as he just kind of assumed Minato would teleport to the exact location that he had prepared his sword. Minato could've _split Bee in half_ from the front, from above, or from either side. This isn't something that can be realistically replicated. Tsunade could get lucky, but all others have failed to anticipate Minato, including even Obito. I specify Obito because he relies almost solely reading opponents and counter-attacking, and thus should have comparable anticipatory skills to Tsunade.



> I mean, Minato could've warped elsewhere, but doing that means he'd be stopping his attack



He could've warped to the other side of Bee and killed him from the front, where there wasn't a sword.



> She needn't actually fight him in order to be familiar with how he fights.




I'm skeptical that Tsunade would know the complete mechanics behind Hiraishin considering not even his student did. Also, I believe the details of the Jutsu were kept a secret even among the villagers. 

Minato can realistically end the fight with one blow if decapitation does it. She has to wait for him to attack to do anything (because the only way she has enough speed to hit him is through counter-striking, and even that's iffy), but Minato's attacks way too fast for her to guard or dodge.

I think you overestimate counter-striking though. If Minato see's her attempting to counter-attack, he can just jump again with Hiraishin, just as he did against Jubito (yes he lost an arm, but Jubito is god tier speed). 

Speaking of Obito, 4 incredibly skilled & fast guys were unable to counter-strike Obito back when he was using Kamui. He was always able to activate Kamui again before they could connect. This is basically how Minato would consistently dodge Tsunade. He's fast enough to Hiraishin away from even counter punches.



> Pre-emptively dodging I think would be more similar to what we saw Hebi Sasuke do.



I agree. Though again, I don't think Ei lacks the ability to anticipate attacks. He is a Nin-Taijutsu expert, and that was the strategy he applied after his Body Flicker failed against Minato.



> That's like saying someone on the track team can answer a question faster than the smartest person in the class simply because they can look at the words faster.



If the track kid has superior reflexes, he can raise his hand faster, yes. The answer will be wrong though. The smart kid will take his time and think about it before he answers.

That was a bad example though. Even the most severe difference between the reflexive ability of any two normal humans pales in comparison to the gap between the Raikage and Tsunade (or most Ninja). Ei powers his synapses with lighting.....



> In this instance, for people who can't just cover a wide area because they rely on their bodies, there was a problem to be solved before they moved: where the Katon would be at based on how it was moving at what angle. It is similar to the problem with the traps of puppeteers. More conscious thought was required, that is not what reflex is. Enhanced reflex = / = enhanced thought processing.



This doesn't tell me why Ei didn't move, considering he's perfectly capable of completely dodging those fireballs without having to worry about angles. 

Reflex is not conscious thought. However, it is a mental process. I think it's time to clear this up.

What's stimulated by RnY are the Raikage's synapses, a part of the nervous system. Never was it stated that Ei relies on reflexive instinct to fight. His brain can move signals throughout his body at astonishing rates. Therefore, there is minimal delay between the point an attack happens and the point he can counter. 

RnY Ei's nervous system literally operates of a different tier than most Shinobi. 



> And I can tell you that I don't have to consciously think when I move back from somebody trying to strike me during a match, but I'd have to if I were trying to _intercept_ a projectile flying at an angle (what spot do I jump to and how soon becomes more important, etc.)



Ei's dodging is calculated. His Shunshin to avoid Amaterasu coupled as a set-up for a attack to Sasuke's flank. Ei didn't just instinctively avoid Amaterasu. He was able to observe the Justu's casting, use his lighting-level reaction time to mold Chakra & activate Shunshin, and maneuver around the Justu and Sasuke into a more advantageous position. Also, he dodged Juugo at the last second to fake his death, causing Juugo to let his guard down and open himself up to an attack to his flank, which the Raikage made sure to position himself at.

_That_ is conscious though, not reflexive instinct. I'm not even sure Justu can be cast upon instinct, since casting Jutsu requires conscious molding of Chakra. I'm not so sure that process can be achieved by a signal the brain sends on instinct to quickly guard or avoid something, 





> Gaara's sand has been outpaced by  Deidara's bird, which was about even with Ohnoki's flight, and Tsunade crossed a larger distance than flying Ohnoki to launch a two-pronged attack alongside him against Madara's ribcage.



Gaara's sand was able to successfully guard against Sasuke's Enton. I hope you aren't insinuating Madara's Katon is a quicker technique.  



> I could have sworn Minato went for somebody else so that he didn't chance getting caught.



Which is exactly the type of mindset that will keep Tsunade from ever touching him.



> "Unruly Ay", "Dunderhead Ay", etc.. . . .I hope you ain't insinuating he's normally one to look before he leaps.



And yet Ei was named general of the alliance.

Since 99% of Shinobi get holes punched through them when Ei "leaps", he's learned not to waste time with looking. It's like trying to criticize The Flash for attempting a speedblitz. When necessary, Ei's demonstrated the capability to analyze a situation and devise a strategy.


----------



## Krippy (Sep 7, 2013)

KibaforHokage said:


> I fail to see how Sasuke can take them.



I fail to see how they can take Sasuke.


----------



## Ersa (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm sorry it's ridiculously silly to think Tsunade can even graze final Susanoo with Yata. 

Ribcage =/= Muscle + Armour + Legendary Mirror.

And she needed help to bust ribcage too.


----------



## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Obito
> Hashi
> Madara
> Naruto
> ...



Pretty much this really, one of the few times ya got something right, good job.


----------



## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Sep 7, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Pretty much this really, one of the few times ya got something right, good job.



He got Killerbee in there.

edit . and Sasuke...


----------



## RedChidori (Sep 7, 2013)

Pein/Nagato
Itachi
Sasuke
Naruto
Hashimara
Tobirama
Minato
Madara
Kisame
Kakashi
Killer B
Ei


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## Kai (Sep 7, 2013)

Tobi
Hashirama
Madara
Naruto
Nagato
Minato
Sasuke

Possibly Danzo (with Koto).


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Obito
Hashirama 
Madara
Minato
Naruto
Nagato
Itachi


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> He got Killerbee in there.
> 
> edit . and Sasuke...



Both of who can beat the Sannin.


----------



## Tarot (Sep 8, 2013)

RedChidori said:


> *Pein*/Nagato
> *Itachi*
> Sasuke
> Naruto
> ...


half of the people on your list are would get stomped by the sannin. Some probably get solo'd by just one of them.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Death Arcana said:


> half of the people on your list are would get stomped by the sannin. Some probably get solo'd by just one of them.



Pain is capable based on knowledge and the circumstances. Chibaku Tensei & the Gedo Mazo are still a bit much for them.

Edo Itachi has a chance against based on the knowledge they have.

Current (Edo) Minato does so without difficulty. 

Killer B is a master of the 8-Tailed Ox and it's firepower. That firepower is above them. Remember how hopeless the 5 Kage were against Madara's Bijuu-level Susano'o?


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

1- obito
2- Naruto
3- Minato
4- Madara
5- Hiruzen in his prime(according to his hype )
6- Hashirama

that's pretty much is, and we can exclude Hiruzen if we are not including hype.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 8, 2013)

I feel like Perfect Susano'o was a cut above Gyūki. Do you?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I feel like Perfect Susano'o was a cut above Gyūki. Do you?



In defensive capability? Yes, as it's armored. But in offense, no. All Madara had to do was cut two mountains to leave the 5 Kage in awe. Bee can collapse at least 4 with Renzoku Bijūdama.

People act like Perfect Susano'o is so much greater than the Bijuu, even the Nine Tails. All it's done is cut a mountain, and considering it's size, I'd expect it too. According to the Databook, even Jiraiya can mountain bust, and the Bjuu are established Mountain-Eradicators.


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## Octavian (Sep 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I feel like Perfect Susano'o was a cut above Gyūki. Do you?



they were similar in terms of firepower potential but PS's durability definitely trumps that of hachibi's.

edit: rocky said essentially the same thing


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## TheDestroyer (Sep 8, 2013)

Guarantees: 
Obito(Rinnegan and Up)
Hashirama(Any form)
Madara(Any form)
Naruto(BM or KCM can)
Minato(BM Only)
Nagato(Health, Alive,Non-Mobile and up)
Itachi(Edo)
Killer B(Bijuu Form)
Sasuke(EMS only)
Bijuus 2-9
Mu
Six Paths of Pain(S2 only)

Possibly:
Onoki
Ei
Minato(Edo without BM)
Gaara with Prep in a Desert 

Definitely Not:
Six Paths of Pain(S1)
Alive Minato(Not enough Firepower)
Alive Itachi(Not enough Stamina)
SM Naruto(Not enough time)
Everyone else


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## Santoryu (Sep 8, 2013)

Edo Kakashi


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## Bonly (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Pretty much this really, one of the few times ya got something right, good job.



One of the few times? Lol don't start with me boy.



the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> He got Killerbee in there.



B can take out the Sannin if he has some knowledge. Dude can shoot off four Bijuudama at once which is too much for the Sannin. Once he goes Bijuu Mode he's in goes on top a different level then them and with knowledge on them, he can end them without to much problems.




> edit . and Sasuke...



None of the Sannin have the speed to outright dodge Ama at the start of the fight and that can take out any of the Sannin bar Orochi as he has Oral Rebirth but this is assuming Sasuke doesn't just aim at his mouth so Orochi still catches on fire, but then Orochi would be losing lots of chakra. Now add in Enton which is as fast as Naruto's FRS which I doubt think any of the Sannin can dodge in close to mid range and that's a scary offense. 

Now add in his Susanoo+Enton combo which nothing from Orochi or Tsunade(not sure if Jiraiya has anything either) that can break through it and keep them away from him, gives a great defense.

Just think about all that fire going around which would allow him to set up Kirin as well to lol. Sasuke has the tools and stamina to take these three out.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I feel like Perfect Susano'o was a cut above Gyūki. Do you?



Defensively? In shrugging off a Tailed Beast Bomb unscratched, most definitely. Offensively, its slash is only 132 megatons; comparatively, any one of the Tailed Beasts' bombs are almost 40 times more powerful when it comes to energy output.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What's BD Tsunade? Your acting like she even gets wanked. If anything she gets the support the deserved. You don't understand the shit I've seen against her. People saying she gets beat by chunnin without her regen. People saying she loses to PTS Zabuza or PTS Kakashi. Some pitiful shit.
> 
> If anything, BD Itachi, Minato, SM Naruto,  and even Jirayia need to he restricted.



Question, how do you Restrict Jiraiya against the Sannin, when Jiraiya is PART of the Sannin.

Now to the question.
Here's a list with no Particular order.

1. Juubito
2. Rinnegan Obito with 6 paths.
3. SM Naruto
4. KCM Naruto
5. BM Naruto
6. BSM Naruto
7. Edo Madara
8. EMS Madara.
9. EMS Sasuke (possibly)
10. Minato
11. KCM Minato
12. BM Minato
13. Hashirama
14. SM Hashirama
15. Tobirama
16. SM Kabuto (Yes, even without Edo Tensei, he's going to kill the Sannin.)
17. Rikudo Sennin.
18. Healthy Nagato
19. SM Naruto+ (Naruto with Fukusaku and Shima fused (assuming Kurama allows this))


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## Veracity (Sep 9, 2013)

TheGreen1 said:


> Question, how do you Restrict Jiraiya against the Sannin, when Jiraiya is PART of the Sannin.
> 
> Now to the question.
> Here's a list with no Particular order.
> ...



What's your point? His doton Justus are hax af. Whoever you see [insert Justu here] GG, then that person is wanked.


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What's your point? His doton Justus are hax af. Whoever you see [insert Justu here] GG, then that person is wanked.



Sigh...
My statement was in regards to this current matchup with one person against the Sannin. So by your logic, this is Jiraiya vs the Sannin. Again, this is Jiraiya vs a team of Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru. He's facing himself who also happens to have powerful backup. You can't win against yourself with powerful backup.


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## Veracity (Sep 9, 2013)

TheGreen1 said:


> Sigh...
> My statement was in regards to this current matchup with one person against the Sannin. So by your logic, this is Jiraiya vs the Sannin. Again, this is Jiraiya vs a team of Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru. He's facing himself who also happens to have powerful backup. You can't win against yourself with powerful backup.



You seem to think I can't read. Jirayia is obviously part of the Sannin, I'm no dumbass. But he gets wanked so hard, why would anyone have a chance against him + 2 Kage level opponents. All that has to be said is Yomi Nomi GG.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You seem to think I can't read. Jirayia is obviously part of the Sannin, I'm no dumbass. But he gets wanked so hard, why would anyone have a chance against him + 2 Kage level opponents. All that has to be said is Yomi Nomi GG.



I don't really see Jiraiya wanked around here.

And what isn't super powerful about making an adhesive giant-killing swamp blink into existence under your opponent's feet?


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## Veracity (Sep 9, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't really see Jiraiya wanked around here.
> 
> And what isn't super powerful about making an adhesive giant-killing swamp blink into existence under your opponent's feet?



Between here and SI, he gets wanked a lot. And it is a super cool Justu, but when that and Frog Song are the only thing he's known for, then there's a problem. Especially with how versatile Jirayia is.


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## Tarot (Sep 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Pain is capable based on knowledge and the circumstances. Chibaku Tensei & the Gedo Mazo are still a bit much for them.
> 
> Edo Itachi has a chance against based on the knowledge they have.
> 
> ...


Since the OP said Edo Tensei was restricted, I assumed that meant no Edo characters either, but yes Edo Minato wins. If not specified, I just assume people mean the living version. 
-Jiraiya managed to beat 3 paths on his own with no intel, so the 3 sannin should be able to beat the six paths, especially since their skill sets aren't heavily based on chakra attacks and won't be countered by preta path. Also both Oro and Jiraiya are senjutsu users. Nagato has only been shown to be able to summon and control only half of the Gedo mazo since its been stated he can't fully control it. 
-As for Bee, both Jiraiya and Oro alone have fought a V2 Kurama before. Jiraiya managed to beat him while potentially holding back and Oro stalemated while being ill and having no hand seals. Plus Jiraiya's dark swamp would be a good way to immobilize Gyuki if he goes full biju mode. He's gonna have hard time fighting all 3 considering they all have fairly large scale attacks.  


TheDestroyer said:


> Guarantees:
> Bijuus 2-9
> Mu
> Six Paths of Pain(S2 only)
> ...


Biju's 2-7 all got solo'd by akatsuki members or the immortal duo. Pretty sure all 3 sannin combined can do better.


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## Paine? (Sep 9, 2013)

Is it possible for tsunade to do this????


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 9, 2013)

To be honest I don't see many shinobi being able to solo the Sannin at full power 

Rikudo is a given

Juubito off course 

Hashirama has a shot depending on what Edo Tensei Orochimaru is equipped with 

problem with Hashirama , Kabuto, Minato, Madara face is that Sannin should have a good deal of Knowledge on their abilities , but I give them along with Naruto a 50/50 shot


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> problem with Hashirama , Kabuto, Minato, Madara face is that Sannin should have a good deal of Knowledge on their abilities , but I give them along with Naruto a 50/50 shot



I think regardless of knowledge Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Tailed Beast Mode Naruto pound the Sannin into a fine dust, but that's just me.


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## naeluzamaki (Sep 9, 2013)

Bsm naruto beats all 3 same time mid diff 1v1 low diff


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## trance (Sep 9, 2013)

naeluzamaki said:


> Bsm naruto beats all 3 same time mid diff 1v1 low diff



Lol. BSM Naruto godstomps Sannin all together.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2013)

The number of Sannin that Tailed Beast Mode Naruto alone can annihilate must be in the thousands.


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## KibaforHokage (Sep 9, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The number of Sannin that Tailed Beast Mode Naruto alone can annihilate must be in the thousands.



What if they were all edo tensei


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## DeK3iDE (Sep 10, 2013)

I think the usual suspects were already listed:, Hashirama, Madara, Naruto, maybe even Pain. Though i would probably argue that Sandaime Raikage has at least a decent chance as well, solely based on him undeniably holding the greatest stamina and durability feat of any fighter in the story. Not to mention the lvl of his reflexes, agility, speed, and striking power. Can't believe no one bothered to mention or think of him.





KibaforHokage said:


> I fail to see how Sasuke can take them.


you're not the only one.



Death Arcana said:


> His abilities are quite deadly against the summon heavy style of the sanin. Amaterasu and flame control spam are a giant summons' worst nightmare. Not to mention, he can also control one of the summons with genjutsu. I wouldn't have said this a few months ago due to his limited mobility, but Aoda removes that weakness. Don't get me wrong, its still high diff for Sasuke at least.


you're forgetting the fact that Jiraiya could seal Amaterasu so even in the even that it hits something or someone on Team Sannin Jiraiya could probably continuously remove it from being effective enough for it to be an advantage for Sasuke. Coupled with Tsunade's regen and healing abilities and Oro's Body Shedding and Snake Hands it could prove problematic for Amaterasu to even be a relevant factor in that case. And that's before bringing up how questionable Sasuke's chakra and stamina reserves are at this point.



Krippy said:


> I fail to see how they can take Sasuke.


i've seen plenty more that tells me that collectively they have more of a chance at beating Sasuke than the other way around. One can make an valid argument for him against one of them, but against all 3 of them together? No way. He's not _that_ good, he isn't _that_ powerful, and he's not really that durable.


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## Krippy (Sep 10, 2013)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> i've seen plenty more that tells me that collectively they have more of a chance at beating Sasuke than the other way around. One can make an valid argument for him against one of them, but against all 3 of them together? No way. He's not _that_ good, he isn't _that_ powerful, and he's not really that durable.



Not really. Not only can they not get through Susanoo, none of them can avoid being killed by an Enton spam. But since I'm lazy, I'm just gonna quote this post as it sums up my stance.


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## Ersa (Sep 10, 2013)

The Sannin wank is ridiculous, this isn't Part I where being Sannin meant you were practically one of the strongest characters in the entire manga. Granted soloing all 3 of them is still a noteworthy feat but one quite a few can achieve.

Any top tier like Madara, Naruto and Hashirama can murk thousands of Sannin with their massive and spammable city/island busting attacks and insanely superior speed/reflexes.

People like living Minato, Nagato, Edo Itachi, EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto are all capable of beating them, Nagato/KCM Naruto with little difficulty and the other three with extreme-high difficulty. Numbers mean shit when one team has insanely superior hax/firepower.


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