# Featherine (umineko) vs Lucifer (SMT)



## Dr. White (Aug 22, 2017)

who takes?


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## Iwandesu (Aug 22, 2017)

Haven't finished nocturne yet
But Featherine can fodderize beings who can arguably reach megaverse level


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## Iwandesu (Aug 22, 2017)

Im not sure when multiverse starts on SMT but witches should be definetely above  or as powerful as any of your average fiends/god like Matador and thor (they are universal+-multiversal due to representing their own deity concept on the amala or something iirc)
And those are less than dust for both Featherine and Lucifer

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 22, 2017)

How strong is Lucifer ? Lambda a being that is casually multiversal+/megaversal+ (or whatever definition u wanna use) couldn't even scratch the device on featherine's head let alone harm featherine herself...then featherine proceeded to casually murderstomp lambda with "nothing" cause she was bored...also Bern stated that everything about her applies to featherine 1000 times more ...now I'm not sure how strong this version of Lucifer is so I can't comment on the outcome but I'm sure he's close since he comes from one of the strongest srire South there

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 22, 2017)

>fodderize megaversal entities

Uh huh.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 22, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> How strong is Lucifer ? Lambda a being that is casually multiversal+/megaversal+ (or whatever definition u wanna use) couldn't even scratch the device on featherine's head let alone harm featherine herself...then featherine proceeded to casually murderstomp lambda with "nothing" cause she was bored...also Bern stated that everything about her applies to featherine 1000 times more ...now I'm not sure how strong this version of Lucifer is so I can't comment on the outcome but I'm sure he's close since he comes from one of the strongest srire South there


Lucifer has consistently opposed YHVH throughout the series. He's one of the strongest angels YHVH had ever created and he can assist the player in MT2 and SMT2 in defeating him. So he's multiversal+ at bare minimum but I've heard rumblings of megaversal Lucifer, probably based on him being able to oppose YHVH and not get fodderized.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 22, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Lucifer has consistently opposed YHVH throughout the series. He's one of the strongest angels YHVH had ever created and he can assist the player in MT2 and SMT2 in defeating him. So he's multiversal+ at bare minimum but I've heard rumblings of megaversal Lucifer, probably based on him being able to oppose YHVH and not get fodderized.



Well Bern and Lambda are solidly in the megaversal range ( why do I feel weird every time I type his word  ) and featherine could fodderise both of them simultaneously...so Lucifer should have to at least be able to perform the same feat to even try and take on featherine 

Btw I think I'll start the games once I get back home ..I always like mythology/religious related stuff and from what I've heard it's a good quality series (though maybe too big for my tastes )


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 22, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well Bern and Lambda are solidly in the megaversal range ( why do I feel weird every time I type his word  ) and featherine could fodderise both of them simultaneously...so Lucifer should have to at least be able to perform the same feat to even try and take on featherine
> 
> Btw I think I'll start the games once I get back home ..I always like mythology/religious related stuff and from what I've heard it's a good quality series (though maybe too big for my tastes )


Start with the SNES stuff with Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei and the first 2 SMT games than move onto Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, Raidou, Strange Journey, etc.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Qinglong (Aug 22, 2017)

I am almost 100 percent positive Betatron is weaker just by proxy

and Betatron > Kagutsuchi so work from there


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## Iwandesu (Aug 23, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> I am almost 100 percent positive Betatron is weaker just by proxy
> 
> and Betatron > Kagutsuchi so work from there


Fair enough
Kagtusuchi is like some short of massively multiversal being right?
Bern vs lambda managed to destroy 5 or 6 multiversal books (I mean the enterity of Umineko multiverse was on a single book at least)


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 23, 2017)

iwandesu said:


> Fair enough
> Kagtusuchi is like some short of massively multiversal being right?
> Bern vs lambda managed to destroy 5 or 6 multiversal books (I mean the enterity of Umineko multiverse was on a single book at least)


Kagutsuchi manages an infinite sized multiverse and it's death annihilated the Amala Universe during the True Demon Ending. Metatron is higher on the totem pole than he is.


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## Fang (Aug 23, 2017)

The main Kagutsuchi maintains both the normal universes and the shadow ones within and outside of the Amala Universe so high end multiversal to megaversal is the general ballpark.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## John Wayne (Aug 23, 2017)

So slightly below Bernkastel and Lambdadelta whom Featherine stomps.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cain1234 (Aug 23, 2017)

Imo Kagutsuchi is more high end Multiversal than Bern and Lamda.


None should be Megaversal as that term dosen't really convey the difference between the two Multiverse sets.


Bern and Lambda' s battle produce multiple big bang's and crunches and destroyed multiple finite fragments of varying sizes and degree.



Kagutsuchi destroys and creates multiple  nearly over six to eight digit Multiverses of potentially infinite sizes *every second*.


That is imo more impressive than what Bern's and Lambda has shown.


In terms of raw Power scale Lucifer should be above Fetherine.


Though with the metafictional nature of Fetherine's power is really hard to say if Lucifer can beat her.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 23, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Imo Kagutsuchi is more high end Multiversal than Bern and Lamda.
> 
> 
> None should be Megaversal as that term dosen't really convey the difference between the two Multiverse sets.
> ...


Each tome Lambda and Bern destroyed was at least as big as ange's story that contained the sea of fragments which is an infinite multiverse ...and they destroyed multiple of said tomes when they were playing around ....


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 23, 2017)

And Xenogears is probably being left in the mud here 

Oh well, at least Demonbane got knocked down.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 2


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## Dr. White (Aug 23, 2017)




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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2017)

Lucy takes it


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## Bernkastel (Aug 23, 2017)

iwandesu said:


> Fair enough
> Kagtusuchi is like some short of massively multiversal being right?
> Bern vs lambda managed to destroy 5 or 6 multiversal books (I mean the enterity of Umineko multiverse was on a single book at least)


Btw lambda destroyed much more than five books..you see more than 12 books on panel and after the dust settles large empty selves are left in the library


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## The World (Aug 23, 2017)

Wheelchair Lucy doesn't even need to stand up


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## trexalfa (Aug 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> And Xenogears is probably being left in the mud here
> 
> Oh well, at least Demonbane got knocked down.



Pedobane should bow to the true quality mech and its kung fu using god-pilot.

Anything else would be unadmissible

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 23, 2017)

trexalfa said:


> Pedobane should bow to the true quality mech and its kung fu using god-pilot.
> 
> Anything else would be unadmissible


Id shows Demonbane it's face after he's done flexing with Solaris

Reactions: Funny 2


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## trexalfa (Aug 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Id shows Demonbane it's face after he's done flexing with Solaris



Id tells Kurou that throwing a loli on him is cheating as he promptly returns her to him .

He'll be a piece of cake for Grahf to take with one of those _Doth you desire the POWER!!! _speeches.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 23, 2017)

trexalfa said:


> Id tells Kurou that throwing a loli on him is cheating as he promptly returns her to him .
> 
> He'll be a piece of cake for Grahf to take with one of those _Doth you desire the POWER!!! _speeches.


Id would throw those infinite Demonbanes at him and then toss Vortex Blaster around like a ragdoll


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 24, 2017)

Wow, a thread with umineko, but maybe a gauntlet against Marvel/DC can be a bit more productive to scrutinize the feats


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Wow, a thread with umineko, but maybe a gauntlet against Marvel/DC can be a bit more productive to scrutinize the feats


We already did. There's no point in repeating that when @Haruhi Suzumiya and I went over Featherine and Living Tribunal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 24, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> We already did. There's no point in repeating that when @Haruhi Suzumiya and I went over Featherine and Living Tribunal.


Really? I missed that


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Really? I missed that

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Keishin (Aug 24, 2017)

Lucifer flexes
These infinite multiverse books frankly don't even exist.

Reactions: Dislike 6


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## Bernkastel (Aug 24, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Lucifer flexes
> These infinite multiverse books frankly *don't even exist.*


Like you reading comprehension

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Like you reading comprehension


You know what else doesn't exist?

His functioning brain.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2017)

Soooo inconclusive?


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## Bernkastel (Aug 24, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Soooo inconclusive?



Is Lucifer able to murderstomp someone like Bern and lambda ? You have to work from there to even contend with featherine let alone beat her ..not to mention her author powers are rally broken ...only the knowledgeable ones about smt Lucifer can answer this


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Is Lucifer able to murderstomp someone like Bern and lambda ? You have to work from there to even contend with featherine let alone beat her ..not to mention her author powers are rally broken ...only the knowledgeable ones about smt Lucifer can answer this


From what Fang said, Lucifer is way above the potentially megaverse level Kagutsuchi if that answers your question at all.

At the very least, it's looking to be a stalemate here.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 24, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> From what Fang said, Lucifer is way above the potentially megaverse level Kagutsuchi if that answers your question at all.
> 
> At the very least, it's looking to be a stalemate here.


Well I'm not sure how potentially fares here when lambda absorbed casually at least than 12-15 books in the library


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well I'm not sure how potentially fares here when lambda absorbed casually at least than 12-15 books in the library


Hard to say but from what I recall, it seems likely. Lucifer is so far above Kagutsuchi, he'd be well into the megaversal+ level at least if Kagutsuchi is indeed megaversal. Considering he opposes YHVH consistently, this doesn't seem unlikely.


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## Sablés (Aug 24, 2017)

The gap between Featherine and Lambda is stupid enough where the former skipped the kill method because she couldn't be assed at the time and went straight to the conclusion.

This is basically a hypothetical "is X's + comparable to or better than Y's +" and that's pretty pointless. To be fair, the base that Featherine scales off is (apparently) more concrete than Lucifer's and  benefit of the doubt should  probably go to her. Not counting hax or other esoteric abilities.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> The gap between Featherine and Lambda is stupid enough where the former skipped the kill method because she couldn't be assed at the time and went straight to the conclusion.
> 
> This is basically a hypothetical "is X's + comparable to or better than Y's +" and that's pretty pointless. To be fair, the base that Featherine scales off is (apparently) more concrete than Lucifer's and  benefit of the doubt should  probably go to her.


Can't get more concrete than Kagutsuchi is fodder next to Lucifer. Even Metatron's fodder next to Lucifer who's also above Kagutsuchi. It would take me awhile to put in a proper pecking order to show just how far above Lucifer is compared to Kagutsuchi and Metatron. And considering Lucifer opposes YHVH, there is plenty of concrete powerscaling for Lucifer.

Don't be a dong.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fang (Aug 24, 2017)

Lucifer literally fucks around all of creation doing dick all because that's how high he is. You have a mook like Polaris with the Akashic Record governining its own multiverse, altering worlds and universes at will and changing the grounds of reality or the Throne of Bels in another and Lucifer simply does not give a shit because those things don't register on his radar.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Sablés (Aug 24, 2017)

That's nice but not seeing what it had to do with my post.

Kagutsuchi is potentially megaversal. Lambda is comfortably megaversal, is what I'm getting here. That's the base being used to scale and Lambda's is more concrete.

Not arguing any more than that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Qinglong (Aug 24, 2017)

Lucifer literally didn't give a shit about the Throne of Bel and thinks of it like one would a summer project

He pretty much told Beelzebub to help Belberith because he thought it would be amusing


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> That's nice but not seeing what it had to do with my post.
> 
> Kagutsuchi is potentially megaversal. Lambda is comfortably megaversal, is what I'm getting here. That's the base being used to scale and Lambda's is more concrete.
> 
> Not arguing any more than that.


Fang gave some good arguments for it. There's also what TS told me about the function of Musubi giving everyone their own universes making it more evident that Kagutsuchi is megaversal to potentially higher than that even.

I'll say it again in case you didn't get it the first time. Don't be a dong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 24, 2017)

Well even in umineko there are Battler and Beatrice there're just witches who can create/control an infinite multiverse, that is a small territory for other witches and they're way below Lambda and Bern, who have megaversal feats.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 24, 2017)

Bern stated everything about her applies to her 1000 times so using my genius mathematic knowledge featherine would beat 999 bernkastels,stalemate 1000 ones and would lose to 1001 ..

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Fang (Aug 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> That's nice but not seeing what it had to do with my post.
> 
> Kagutsuchi is potentially megaversal. Lambda is comfortably megaversal, is what I'm getting here. That's the base being used to scale and Lambda's is more concrete.
> 
> Not arguing any more than that.



?

Both the universes within and outside of the Amala Universe are ruled over by the main Kagutusuchi. If that makes him megaversal, than that registers to Metatron, whose below Lucifer via simple powerscaling.

Seems pretty concrete to me.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Fang said:


> ?
> 
> Both the universes within and outside of the Amala Universe are ruled over by the main Kagutusuchi. If that makes him megaversal, than that registers to Metatron, whose below Lucifer via simple powerscaling.
> 
> Seems pretty concrete to me.


ThanatoSeraph also mentioned to me that Musubi itself allows for everyone to have their own universe. It sounds solidly megaversal to megaversal+ to me. And Metatron, Demiurge, Mem Aleph, Lucifer, etc. are all above Kagutsuchi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (Aug 24, 2017)

Fang said:


> ?
> 
> Both the universes within and outside of the Amala Universe are ruled over by the main Kagutusuchi. If that makes him megaversal, than that registers to Metatron, whose below Lucifer via simple powerscaling.
> 
> Seems pretty concrete to me.


What was discussed before you elaborated was a ballpark of high-end multiversal - megaversal

Since Kagutsuchu's straight up megaversal, there was never a problem.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> What was discussed before you elaborated was a ballpark of high-end multiversal - megaversal
> 
> Since Kagutsuchu's straight up megaversal, there was never a problem.


Considering I said that Lucifer is >>>>>>> Kagutsuchi and that he's fodder next to Lucifer should have made all this abundantly clear by now.

Lucifer is well above megaversal even if Kagutsuchi was at the extreme end of multiversal+.

You didn't listen, you dip.


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## Fang (Aug 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> What was discussed before you elaborated was a ballpark of high-end multiversal - megaversal
> 
> Since Kagutsuchu's straight up megaversal, there was never a problem.



I only hesitated before because general power level fights at this level are kind of pointless and end up being "my character is x amount more megaversal/omniversal/etc...than yours". The Vortex Worlds within the Amala alone already put the Kagutuschi at that level bare minimum.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Fang said:


> I only hesitated before because general power level fights at this level are kind of pointless and end up being "my character is x amount more megaversal/omniversal/etc...than yours". The Vortex Worlds within the Amala alone already put the Kagutuschi at that level bare minimum.


I was an on and off lurker around here and several sites and I recall the general disdain surrounding fights of this caliber.

However, I think Kagutsuchi is most certainly megaverse level or higher. You've got the universes in the Amala, the Shadow Vortexes outside as well as the Musubi possibly being a multiverse of its own. I dunno, if that strictly applies to only Musubi because of how it functions or if it functions across more worlds in the Amala although TS also said he didn't really have much proof that Musubi contained universes or not from what I remember.


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## John Wayne (Aug 24, 2017)

So it's a draw.


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 24, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Lucifer is well above megaversal even if Kagutsuchi was at the extreme end of multiversal+.


Wait, jumping between levels with powerscaling alone isn't possible I think, like Dragon ball where Freezer is star level/solar system and even majin bu is basically at that level because that's the best feat of something like that.
If that what's you're saying, if it isn't then forget what I'm saying


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Wait, jumping between levels with powerscaling alone isn't possible I think, like Dragon ball where Freezer is star level/solar system and even majin bu is basically at that level because that's the best feat of something like that.
> If that what's you're saying, if it isn't then forget what I'm saying


It's not that, it's that Lucifer so far above Kagutsuchi that Kagutsuchi is fodder or even less than that by comparison. There's also Lucifer consistently opposing YHVH and helping the player defeat him twice in optional routes (although the Chaos Ending in MT2 was confirmed canon last I heard). He's pretty solidly megaversal+ at the very minimum.


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## trexalfa (Aug 24, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I was an on and off lurker around here and several sites and I recall the general disdain surrounding fights of this caliber.
> 
> However, I think Kagutsuchi is most certainly megaverse level or higher. You've got the universes in the Amala, the Shadow Vortexes outside as well as the Musubi possibly being a multiverse of its own. I dunno, if that strictly applies to only Musubi because of how it functions or if it functions across more worlds in the Amala although TS also said he didn't really have much proof that Musubi contained universes or not from what I remember.



When a human bearing Reason fights and destroys Kagutsuchi, it then grants the human its power, and with it, he can change the Vortex World into his desired universe. If Isamu wins by having Hitoshura destroy Kagutsuchi for him, or even if he did it himself with Noah's power, he could have only changed the Vortex World he was in. Musubi wouldn't have affected the rest of the Amala Universe.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

trexalfa said:


> When a human bearing Reason fights and destroys Kagutsuchi, it then grants the human its power, and with it, he can change the Vortex World into his desired universe. If Isamu wins by having Hitoshura destroy Kagutsuchi for him, or even if he did it himself with Noah's power, he could have only changed the Vortex World he was in. Musubi wouldn't have affected the rest of the Amala Universe.


I wasn't quite getting at that but rather if something similar applies to the rest. If Isamu's Reason creates a multiverse and the other Reasons are the same size, it would stand to reason that they are multiversal as well. Then again, this is probably pointless speculation as TS I don't think has found solid proof that Musubi contains alternate universes or not.


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## trexalfa (Aug 24, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I wasn't quite getting at that but rather if something similar applies to the rest. If Isamu's Reason creates a multiverse and the other Reasons are the same size, it would stand to reason that they are multiversal as well. Then again, this is probably pointless speculation as TS I don't think has found solid proof that Musubi contains alternate universes or not.



Thing is, the other Reasons don't involve cosmologies this big. Most of them, like Hikawa's or Chiaki's, would have just changed the Vortex World into another different universe, without making personal realms for everyone into it. Musubi is the only one involving the creation of more than one world. However, all Reasons use Kagutsuchi's power to be fullfilled.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 24, 2017)

trexalfa said:


> Thing is, the other Reasons don't involve cosmologies this big. Most of them, like Hikawa's or Chiaki's, would have just changed the Vortex World into another different universe, without making personal realms for everyone into it. Musubi is the only one involving the creation of more than one world. However, all Reasons use Kagutsuchi's power to be fullfilled.


I suppose that makes sense. It's still a good feat since Kagutsuchi can create multiverses on a whim if the Reason bearer desires or needs it from him. And that wasn't the main Kagutsuchi either.


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## Fang (Aug 24, 2017)

The Reasons correspond to each world's Kagatsuchi's avatar at the center of it, its not necessarily the same for the Great/Main Kagatsuchi if memory serves right.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 24, 2017)

So i guess its a stalemate...I wonder how will Featherine's authoritative/plot powers will fare here?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> So i guess its a stalemate...I wonder how will Featherine's authoritative/plot powers will fare here?


Wouldn't that just be some form of 4th wall breaking + really broken reality warping?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Wouldn't that just be some form of 4th wall breaking + really broken reality warping?


Well she basically stopped the plot of the entire novel when she "nothinged" lambda so yeah


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well she basically stopped the plot of the entire novel when she "nothinged" lambda so yeah


Kinda seems like "omnipotence" of a unique variety

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Kinda seems like "omnipotence" of a unique variety


Well it's better not to use the "o" word ..that's a scary thing to do  

I'm not really sure how one can counter her powers though unless he's shown some similar feats


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well it's better not to use the "o" word ..that's a scary thing to do
> 
> I'm not really sure how one can counter her powers though unless he's shown some similar feats


Lucifer's a pretty casual reality warper himself. The guy he fights against is God with a capital G on a consistent basis and has helped the player fight him twice in one confirmed canonical route.

He's pretty resistant to reality warping and some virtually omnipotent bending. He's also likely immune to death if the Neutral Route of SMT 2 is canon. Angels weaker than him like the Cardinal Angels did that so it's not hard to imagine he can just will himself back to life if and when he so chooses.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Lucifer's a pretty casual reality warper himself. The guy he fights against is God with a capital G on a consistent basis and has helped the player fight him twice in one confirmed canonical route.
> 
> He's pretty resistant to reality warping and some virtually omnipotent bending. He's also likely immune to death if the Neutral Route of SMT 2 is canon. Angels weaker than him like the Cardinal Angels did that so it's not hard to imagine he can just will himself back to life if and when he so chooses.


Well Bern herself has the same power meaning she has the power die and revive herself at will so it's pretty normal yet that didn't help lambda against Featherine's powers


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## Cain1234 (Aug 25, 2017)

Wouldn't remotely killing Tohya Hachijo, and destroying all her works in the Real Dimension of Umineko actually end Fetherine for good.


Lucifer dosen't even need to fully manifest himself in the real world. A few carefull unfortunate accidents can lead Tohya down a very dark path.

A witch or sorcerer is as powerful as the world they make.

That or stealing or erasing the memory device on her head that regulates her personality can count as a win for Luci.


Alternatively there is not way for Fetherine to actually put down Luci. Even stopping the plot won't end Lucifer as he can still move in time stop or move to an alternate timeline. And Lucifer has appeared in alot of games.


SMT is a whole lot more broken than Umineko. And has alot more worlds.


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## Keishin (Aug 25, 2017)

Yes umineko only has the red blue and gold shit worth mentioning when it comes to actual stated high tier hax not even close to SMT

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Wouldn't remotely killing Tohya Hachijo, and destroying all her works in the Real Dimension of Umineko actually end Fetherine for good.
> 
> 
> Lucifer dosen't even need to fully manifest himself in the real world. A few carefull unfortunate accidents can lead Tohya down a very dark path.
> ...


A megaversal + being couldn't even scratch her head device with full power and ..time stop and plot-stop are not the same...


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 25, 2017)

Well, Umineko have time manipulation, reality warping, many types of teleportation between dimension/universes, probability manipulation, resurrection, regeneration, many concept related powers, mind manipulation, transmutation, non-corporeal, causality Manipulation, "astral projection"... etc


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## Cain1234 (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> A megaversal + being couldn't even scratch her head device with full power and ..time stop and plot-stop are not the same...



No, none of the Umineko character's are Megaversal+. At best they are Multi Universal+ or metaversal. As the substance there does not exist or have tangible mass.
It is not comparable to actual Megaverses which are 4 D to 5 D space. Or in Comic defination Infinite Multiverses.


Calling time stop, plot stop does not change the actual meaning of the ability. It is time stop as, the plot still progress as Fetherine is still talking and explaining. Stopping a plot means ending a story. Its time stop with a different name and degree.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> No, none of the Umineko character's are Megaversal+. At best they are Multi Universal+.
> 
> 
> 
> Calling time stop, plot stop does not change the actual meaning of the ability. It is time stop as, the plot still progress as Fetherine is still talking and explaining. Stopping a plot means ending a story. Its time stop with a different name.


Wrong on both ends.
I won't even bother with the first cause it's been proven multiple times.
About the second part Featherine stopped the plot of the novel itself not just the time ...there's a difference between the two


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## Cain1234 (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Wrong on both ends.
> I won't even bother with the first cause it's been proven multiple times.


Wrong, none of it has been proven, its just the same people trying to shoehorn, Megaversal witches when the size of fragments can vary between a single room, infinite variations of the same room, to a universe, to multiple variations of the same universe. Not enough to call it megaversal.



> About the second part Featherine stopped the plot of the novel itself not just the time ...there's a difference between the two



Calling it a different name dosen't change what it is.


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## Bad Wolf (Aug 25, 2017)

Even because they showed even time stop and it was different. And witches in general aren't in the normal flow of time.
You can check haruhi's blog about the megaversal stuff, cain you're confusing random fragments with territory


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Wrong, none of it has been proven, its just the same people trying to shoehorn, Megaversal witches when the size of fragments can vary between a single room, infinite variations of the same room, to a universe, to multiple variations of the same universe. Not enough to call it megaversal.
> 
> 
> 
> Calling it a different name dosen't change what it is.


Oh you're the one that said the same thing in another thread involving umineko ...sorry gtg


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## Cain1234 (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Oh you're the one that said the same thing in another thread involving umineko ...sorry gtg



Because it is normally just you and Haruhi trying to push it in the OBD.

Ya like wise, peace out. Also vote for Beato in the Waifu polls.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Because it is normally just you and Haruhi trying to push it in the OBD.
> 
> Ya like wise, peace out. Also vote for Beato in the Waifu polls.


When did I ever try to push anything in the obd lol? If something wasn't accepted it wouldn't be used...the proof is there but I understand umineko can be hard to understand for some so I don't blame you...read it again a few times and you'll see the light 


I will


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## Keishin (Aug 25, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Wrong, none of it has been proven, its just the same people trying to shoehorn, Megaversal witches when the size of fragments can vary between a single room, infinite variations of the same room, to a universe, to multiple variations of the same universe. Not enough to call it megaversal.
> 
> 
> 
> Calling it a different name dosen't change what it is.


You're right. It's megadimensional at best, the books contain pocket dimensions, not universes.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> You're right. It's megadimensional at best, the books contain pocket dimensions, not universes.


Wrong...again


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well Bern herself has the same power meaning she has the power die and revive herself at will so it's pretty normal yet that didn't help lambda against Featherine's powers


Well considering he revived from getting killed by someone on YHVH's level or above him, it's going to prove really difficult to put Lucifer down for good.

Now that I think about it, Lucifer in his Old Man guide tanked the Amala's collapse. Which is to say his weakest self tanked the destruction of a megaverse and he was completely unscathed by it. And Lucifer in his Angel and Demon forms are >>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Lucifer.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Well considering he revived from getting killed by someone on YHVH's level or above him, it's going to prove really difficult to put Lucifer down for good.
> 
> Now that I think about it, Lucifer in his Old Man guide tanked the Amala's collapse. Which is to say his weakest self tanked the destruction of a megaverse and he was completely unscathed by it. And Lucifer in his Angel and Demon forms are >>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Lucifer.


Well my point was mostly that Bern and lambda are easily above the concept of death and can will themselves to die/live on a whim yet featherine still overpowered so that power is nothing featherine hasn't dealt before


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Well my point was mostly that Bern and lambda are easily above the concept of death and can will themselves to die/live on a whim yet featherine still overpowered so that power is nothing featherine hasn't dealt before


Unless Featherine is above YHVH or Aleph, I'm plenty sure that's not going to work on Lucifer. If Aleph couldn't permanently kill him and YHVH has been struggling to put him down despite being far more powerful, I'm not seeing how Featherine is going to fare much better.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Unless Featherine is above YHVH or Aleph, I'm plenty sure that's not going to work on Lucifer. If Aleph couldn't permanently kill him and YHVH has been struggling to put him down despite being far more powerful, I'm not seeing how Featherine is going to fare much better.


Hm I know thus why I asked how feahterines plot powers would fare vs him since I'm sure conventional attacks won't work against him from what I read from the others here


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Hm I know thus why I asked how feahterines plot powers would fare vs him since I'm sure conventional attacks won't work against him from what I read from the others here


To me plot powers sounds like it relies on story. Since Lucifer isn't part of Umineko, I don't think it's going to really matter out of universe. At best, I see it as 4th wall breaking with the added bonus of really broken reality warping.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> To me plot powers sounds like it relies on story. Since Lucifer isn't part of Umineko, I don't think it's going to really matter out of universe. At best, I see it as 4th wall breaking with the added bonus of really broken reality warping.


It's her main power though..grabbing the script basically and doing whatever she wants with it ...on a megaversal scale..meh nevermind my brain hurts

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> It's her main power though..grabbing the script basically and doing whatever she wants with it ...on a megaversal scale..meh nevermind my brain hurts


It still sounds like a weird version of reality warping. Since this is a neutral fight, I don't think she can control Lucifer with a script since he's really far above megaversal+ entities. YHVH had been trying to control him but he couldn't do it either.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It still sounds like a weird version of reality warping. Since this is a neutral fight, I don't think she can control Lucifer with a script since he's really far above megaversal+ entities. YHVH had been trying to control him but he couldn't do it either.


It certainly is much more than reality warping imo but plot powers really are weird in debates and unless you reach some nlf I'm not sure how to use it so I think it's best to let it end in a stalemate for the sake of everyone's sanity

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Cain1234 (Aug 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> You're right. It's megadimensional at best, the books contain pocket dimensions, not universes.



The problem with the Japanese word for Universe is that it is also the same word for space.

There are like 5 to 6 different variations of the word Universe, and depending on the phonetics the meaning and degree of the word can vastly vary.


In the beginning I didnot really understand this concept. But after looking through the multiple meanings of the word "Universe" in japanese. I realized that the most standard word for Universe "Uchu" more or less means space or empty space.


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## Agent9149 (Aug 25, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> It certainly is much more than reality warping imo but plot powers really are weird in debates and unless you reach some nlf I'm not sure how to use it so I think it's best to let it end in a stalemate for the sake of everyone's sanity



Plot manipulation is literally the strongest power in fiction. beside the everso boring "this character is omnipotent"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> Plot manipulation is literally the strongest power in fiction. beside the everso boring "this character is omnipotent"


The problem here is there's still no plot or script in this sort of environment, rendering it null on face value.


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## Keollyn (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> And Xenogears is probably being left in the mud here
> 
> Oh well, at least Demonbane got knocked down.



If you're referring to that puddle of mud outside Elly's house while Fei goes Id on that fine redhead, then yeah

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> If you're referring to that puddle of mud outside Elly's house while Fei *goes Id on that fine redhead*, then yeah


I fucking would too.

And thankfully she's not a Nazi

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Keollyn (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I fucking would too.
> 
> And thankfully she's not a Nazi



I bet Elly is one of those undercover freaks. Would explain why Id never actually partakes in the other aspect of the Id (sexual drive). The other redhead took all of it for herself


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> I bet Elly is one of those undercover freaks. Would explain why Id never actually partakes in the other aspect of the Id (sexual drive). The other redhead took all of it for herself


Elly's got a staff. You know as well as I do that she did some naughty shit with that staff


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## Keollyn (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Elly's got a staff. You know as well as I do that she did some naughty shit with that staff



And wasn't she in the woods by herself for a while before Fei ran into her?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> And wasn't she in the woods by herself for a while before Fei ran into her?


Damn straight. Let's also not forget that he saw her nude before even screwing her


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## Keollyn (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Damn straight. Let's also not forget that he saw her nude before even screwing her



Goes to show who the real Id was here


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> Goes to show who the real Id was here


My friends look at me funny when I call Fei a manly man.

Ningens, one of his first random encounters were wolves and he was going Ryoma Nagare on their asses left and right

Reactions: Like 2


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## Keollyn (Aug 25, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> My friends look at me funny when I call Fei a manly man.
> 
> Ningens, one of his first random encounters were wolves and he was going Ryoma Nagare on their asses left and right



Let's not forget trying to fight a mother freaking dinosaur with just his fist. And all he honestly knew was that he was capable of doing a really good pivot kick


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 25, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> Let's not forget trying to fight a mother freaking dinosaur with just his fist. And all he honestly knew was that he was capable of doing a really good pivot kick


He'd make Grandpa Ryoma proud

Reactions: Funny 2


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