# yomi numa vs opponents and gaara quick sand vs the same people



## Icegaze (Jan 22, 2015)

To solidily devalidated this BS yomi numa GG. Please let me know if these characters once yomi numa has been used are effectively out of battle or if they are able to come back into the fight 

kimimaro- bracken dance lol no yomi numa GG
Itachi- susanoo he gets out . No gg either
minato-summons etc never would be an issue 
onoki- low solid core tech or his light weight tech 
Ei-ligthning flow
darui- lightning flow. Yes darui even darui can survive it 

 I seriously do not know 1 kage level shinobi which yomi numa can effectively take out of the fight. We dont even know to what depths it sinks a person. 100, less than 100. 20m ???

So where does this jutsu get its pointless hype when even by DB statements gaara jutsu seems to have more going for it 


I mention gaara quicksand jutsu because not once have i heard anyone say in a gaara vs itachi thread than gaara quicksand him GG. For those who imply yomi numa GG are you all saying genin gaara could GG itachi???


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 22, 2015)

Ay and Darui breaking free of Yumi Numa is a given, they are Raiton users who can surround their body with it and break up the mud around them. Onoki will break free because he could just use Moving Earth Core and raise himself up. Kimimaro can break free because he can summon many bones and out of the ground and travel through them at their top. Minato has FTG so he throws a kunai in the air and teleports to it

Itachi has no counter for it since his Susanoo has no legs and is open at the bottom. Even if he uses Susanoo, hes still caught in the mud because of the opening so thats not a valid way to escape.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jan 22, 2015)

Surf on surfboard Yata or float in Bubble Yata. 

The swamp may take Mei, other than her I can't see any Kage losing to a featless swamp, let alone Itachi.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 22, 2015)

@sword 
The swamp has a depth limit 
I don't doubt itachi will sink what I am saying is just like kimi after being sunk he can get out obviously at the bottom of the swamp the floor under him won't still be a swamp now would it 

Also note Amaterasu turn kabuto sage enhanced giving will to stone jutsu back to it's original form 

I don't see why AMA making contact with numa should be any different . The heat will revert the swamp back to normal ground 

Yomi numa cannot at all defeat a kage level ninja bar hidan due to Kishi being a dick


----------



## Skywalker (Jan 22, 2015)

It never got the proper feats to beat down anyone too powerful, it could actually be impressive if it was shown in it's full power, but alas.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2015)

Yomi numa is probably one of the most overrated jutsus here 
And pretty much every one above that was listed can counter it with ease. 

Itachi can also counter it, through hardening the mud by katon and reducing it's sucking effects, therefore enabling susanoo to break free


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 22, 2015)

Yomi Numa was never portrayed as a jutsu that could finish any elite by itself, but more of a strategic tool, and that's how Jiraiya always used it, even when he was pumped full of Senjutsu chakra.​


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @sword
> The swamp has a depth limit
> I don't doubt itachi will sink what I am saying is just like kimi after being sunk he can get out obviously at the bottom of the swamp the floor under him won't still be a swamp now would it



Then you have to explain how Itachi gets out before the mud swallows him up under his Susanoo and suffocates him. Note also that as he getting swallowed up he won't be able to move his limbs either and the more he tries to struggle and move them the faster he gets swallowed. In my opinion, theres no logical argument that can be made to prove Itachi digs his way out of it, not when two snakes which have far more physical power and were hundreds of times Itachis size couldn't even budge, in a failed version of it too, I might add. 



Icegaze said:


> Also note Amaterasu turn kabuto sage enhanced giving will to stone jutsu back to it's original form



Except that was not a Doton jutsu like Yumi Numa is. That is a special senjutsu technique that gives life to inanimate things so. 



Icegaze said:


> I don't see why AMA making contact with numa should be any different . The heat will revert the swamp back to normal ground



No it won't. As previously stated, Yumi Numa and Muki Tensei are two different techniques and their mechanics are completely different. The heat from Amaterasu or any Katon Itachi uses will only burn himself up and harden the mud to trap him.



Icegaze said:


> Yomi numa cannot at all defeat a kage level ninja bar hidan due to Kishi being a dick



How about instead of making baseless claims, provide clear and indisputable facts that Itachi can escape or survive the technique. In my opinion, many shinobi have escapes to this technique (most of them did in your OP) but Itachi didn't. You can't blame the author for not giving the technique screen time and being used effectively on more opponents as your excuse. Deidaras C3 was shown one time but you don't see me saying Sakura survives or escapes it all because it has no feat of killing anyone decent in the manga.

While I understand you are only talking about Yumi Numa here, I think its Jiraiyas other techniques he can use in conjunction with it is what makes it a GG type of technique, not it by itself.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 23, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> Then you have to explain how Itachi gets out before the mud swallows him up under his Susanoo and suffocates him. Note also that as he getting swallowed up he won't be able to move his limbs either and the more he tries to struggle and move them the faster he gets swallowed. In my opinion, theres no logical argument that can be made to prove Itachi digs his way out of it, not when two snakes which have far more physical power and were hundreds of times Itachis size couldn't even budge, in a failed version of it too, I might add.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol suffocate him how. why didnt kimi run out of breathe? does he have an extra pair of lungs? 
2 snakes 2 fodder snakes have more physical power than itachi susanoo   :GTFO
itachi susanoo could physically resist 8 headed snake attacks. 8 headed snake>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fodder snake. So yh your very very wrong 

Itachi will sink to the bottom. He doesnt  need to move to use susanoo. he uses susanoo and gets out. Are we forgetting yata mirror?? 
oh yh it has no feats. 
What feats does yomi numa have again???
the bias is real 

I could simply say because kishi failed to have yata trolling jutsu doesnt mean yata cant troll jutsu. cant accept 1 and not the other. if your basis is yomi numa would be a 1 shot tech if kishi didnt nerf it then i can say yata is an ultimate trolling tech if kishi didnt nerf it. 

special tech that gives life to innanimate things>>>>>>doton tech simply using chakra. kabuto said its a different level technique to just usign chakra/ 



i am making baseless claims 

you show 1 panel of yomi numa sucking anyone in or killing anyone at all. or even it being hyped 1 in the manga or databook. Go for it. Cant believe the audacity of you super troll to claim i am the one making baseless claims when you have hyped a featless jutsu to no end. 

seriously did u just compare C3 to yomi numa???   

C3 actually has feats. gaara used all the sand in a desert to block it. What feats does yomi numa have. failing to sink animal path? failing to sink a fodder snake. 

i have way more basis to say yata trolls it or itachi simply gets out. at least those statements have hype from kishi. yomi numa GG has zero hype or panel feats from kishi


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 23, 2015)

Darui isn't surviving it. Onoki and Ay survive it because of their respective earth (moving earth and lightening himself) and raiton (lightning bolt moving through the swamp) mastering, and probably Minato who reacts to the swamp by throwing a kunai before his entire body is brought down into it, considering he reacted to Kamui and V2 Ei.

Susano does nothing for Itachi, it has no bottom, and even it if did, it'd still be sunk as a normal ninja with feet would be. Susano isn't breaking him out, unless you think it is capable of grabbing onto the swamp and pulling itself out- which is a violation of physics. Not that that would work, considering Itachi isn't inside the Susano, the Susano is simply surrounding his body from the base ground upward, his body is completely exposed to the swamp from below his body, so the Susano would only succeed in pulling itself out- which it cannot- because the Susano surrounds the user and you can't grapple and pull onto a swamp. 

A drugged Base Jiraiya sunk 60% of a boss snake, part of it vertically was sunk entirely (from the bottom of the snake's belly to the top of it's back was under the swamp), it appeared in a single panel without warning. The swamp, at it's weakest there, is easily 100m deep. A non-drugged, SM Jiraiya's Sage Art swamp would be who knows how much larger and more dense? Jiraiya was actually surprised it did not sink the entire boss snake outright, and later suggested the reason why it was not was because he was drugged.

In my view, the technique does not get enough attention and respect. There's a clear reason Jiraiya was drugged in it's debut, and a clear reason why he did not use it much on-panel and while he did it was small releases that didn't even look like the original technique~ it's incredibly overpowered and the author didn't want Jiraiya sinking everyone he came into contact with. There is no doubt, however, that it is by all means one of his many trump cards.



> Itachi can also counter it, through hardening the mud by katon and reducing it's sucking effects, therefore enabling susanoo to break free


He can't move his hands a centimeter in the swamp to effectively make the seals, and he'd be blowing a flames into his face as there is no open space to effectively develop and launch the technique. All things considered, the moment he opened his mouth to release fire he'd be drowned by the swamp's dense liquids and they flood his lungs instantly. What you're suggesting is physically and chemically impossible, there is no space to release fire out and the swamp is a mixture of mud and water, water converts fire into vapor, there would literally be no hardening of any of the mud in that scenario. 

Susano cannot pull itself under any circumstances, it does not cover his body entirely, thus he cannot use Susano as a physical medium to pull him out. It won't, because it's literally not attached to his physical body (he is not completely inside of it unlike Madara or Sasuke who occupy the space inside of a humanoid Susano with legs that cover the bottom of their bodies as they remain in the head gem- they are literally riding inside Susano).


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol suffocate him how. why didnt kimi run out of breathe? does he have an extra pair of lungs?



Kimi was never  was never immobilized were he couldn't move his limbs. Gaara threw a wave of sand over him then crushed him (or so he tried). Itachi will sink in the mud, unable to move his limbs, and unable to breathe. Yes shinobi can die from suffocation in a situation where they can't move and can't breathe. Ask TenTen when Kisame put her in Water Prison.



Icegaze said:


> 2 snakes 2 fodder snakes have more physical power than itachi susanoo   :GTFO
> itachi susanoo could physically resist 8 headed snake attacks. 8 headed snake>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fodder snake. So yh your very very wrong



Here you attempt to strawman me. I never claimed Orochimarus snakes are stronger than Itachis Susanoo. I said they are *stronger than Itachi*, as in his own physical body. Do I need to explain why?  



Icegaze said:


> Itachi will sink to the bottom. He doesnt  need to move to use susanoo. he uses susanoo and gets out. Are we forgetting yata mirror??
> oh yh it has no feats.
> What feats does yomi numa have again???
> the bias is real



Tell me exactly how does Susanoo get Itachi out because at this point it seems you're just dancing around my points to ignore the fact that you're wrong. 



Icegaze said:


> I could simply say because kishi failed to have yata trolling jutsu doesnt mean yata cant troll jutsu. cant accept 1 and not the other. if your basis is yomi numa would be a 1 shot tech if kishi didnt nerf it then i can say yata is an ultimate trolling tech if kishi didnt nerf it.



Your post is a huge strawman. I never claimed Yumi Numa is a one shot technique. However, it can be that type of technique if used on someone who can't counter and escape it but that goes for every move. If you can't counter or escape Meis Acid Mist, it is a one shot technique. If you can't counter or escape Kitsuchis Mountain Sandwich, it is a one shot technique, no? More strawman is all your posting. I never said Yumi Numa is a one shot technique because Kishi didn't nerf it, thats you whining and making things up to make your argument sound better.



Icegaze said:


> special tech that gives life to innanimate things>>>>>>doton tech simply using chakra. kabuto said its a different level technique to just usign chakra/



Based on what exactly. What proves that Yumi Numa is countered with Amaterasu because Muki Tensei was? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Another baseless claim of yours which you don't back up, because you can't.



Icegaze said:


> you show 1 panel of yomi numa sucking anyone in or killing anyone at all. or even it being hyped 1 in the manga or databook. Go for it. Cant believe the audacity of you super troll to claim i am the one making baseless claims when you have hyped a featless jutsu to no end.



I cut out the irrelevant shit in your post.

Your post was full of nothing but strawmen. Funny emoticons doesn't make your argument better. You have yet to answer my main points (either you dance around them or they're going over your head) then you bring up tons of irrelevant shit I never even said (as if I said them) then knock them down (A.K.A. strawman). Yumi Numa is not a one shot technique for *everyone* (as I have previously stated and provided examples with the people you listed) but you're coming at me with these weak as arguments as if I'm claiming it is. Itachi can't escape or counter it. List the evidence that supports he can then explain why your evidence is valid, if not then concede. I personally think at this point your just arguing for the sake to argue. You're a troll who is rustled so you made this thread to seek some kind of validation or whatever (too bad you got me) and you've made yourself look dumb, again, probably. Your claims so far are baseless, pathetic, and laughable. Post some legit facts in your next post for once, please.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 23, 2015)

why cant darui survive it. He has raiton flow. raiton>doton.  Minato can be pulled in and summon bunta under him. why not?? people can summon their summon where they want it. 

YM pulls him in despite it being featless. he gets to the bottom of it and beats it with susanoo and yata or just susanoo. 

if suanoo gets out so will itachi. susanoo can grab on to itachi i dont see why not. same way itachi can attack through it yet incoming attacks dont go through 

YM best feat is sinking animal path knee deep. why does it get hype from NF?? kishi didnt even care to hype it 

YM doesnt beat even Mei or kurotsuchi

@sword of the morning please read the manga. kimi was immoblized so he couldnt move a finger. clearly stated in the manga 
feats of YM preventing anyone from breathing. it doesnt even have said hype. your making stuff up 

they are stronger than itachi big whoop itachi has susanoo which is stronger than them. how is itachi physical strength relevant ???

i am wrong? yata trolls it. both are featless yata has hype YM does not. go figure 

My argument sounds good thank you very much. you hype a technique with no feats or hype. it cannot one shot its a stall technique and has been used in said manner. 

you provide proof YM can do anything more than stall cuz so far thats all its done. despite the sage chakra enhancement 

lol and your an idiot who has yet to provide any evidence YM can 1 shot anyone. it has no feats to back it up and no hype to do that. 

yet a technique which kishi hyped to defeat specifically elemental jutsu which YM falls under somehow fails to defeat it. And am the straw man here

odd how human path wasnt swallowed into the deep abyss.

odd how in chapter 379 page 12 we still see human path just stuck there. more than half his body is still exposed. Super powerful technique it is certainly.


quick question intelligent people on NF. How does madara deal with it say he was caught in it. he cannot use Ps in this scenario. Please explain how he gets out. Do the same for hashirama he cannot use wood golem or budda how does he get out. 

IF kishi could very directly imply by simply molding chakra in your feet a technique like Shinra tensei could be countered then why on earth cant molding chakra in your feat stop a person from skining?? please explain that dear hypers. Am baffled how this jutsu gets any credit at all.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze, nothing you're saying is logical. Most of what you're presenting requires a user to create a seal, which they cannot while immobilized in the dense swamp. I explained in detail how Susano _cannot_ save Itachi, Susano cannot get out, and neither can Itachi. Read my post. 

I disagree with almost all of your points bar Minato, Ei and Onoki, three ninja who do not have to make hand seals to initiate their Jutsu and three ninja that have techniques capable of escaping the swamp either pre-sinking or post-sinking.

As far as Gaara's quick sand is concerned, you can grab onto and push sand off yourself, you cannot do the same thing under a swamp. Gaara cannot create quicksand either, all he does is grab onto the feet of the opponent, spin the sand around their feet and drag them down, it's not quicksand because he cannot wet the sand. Physically, the two techniques are entirely different. But, for the most part, Current Gaara in the desert would bury Itachi's ass with minimum effort, and no, his Susano is not escaping burial either.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Yomi Numa was never portrayed as a jutsu that could finish any elite by itself, but more of a strategic tool, and that's how Jiraiya always used it, even when he was pumped full of Senjutsu chakra.​



Specific techniques don't need to be portrayed as being able to finish any elite by themselves in order to be capable of doing such, especially not when the caster his or herself is an elite (an elite who is fighting people already familiar with the technique at that); they are going to do what they do.

Also, Jiraiya was pumped full of Senjutsu when he was indoors- it's just commonsensical that Yomi Numa would be of limited use _there_ since he can't make a swamp deeper than the surface he uses the technique on (that would require him to be able to manifest his own earth and if he could do that he'd be spawning the technique in mid-air and all that jazz). We saw how deep Human was able to get into it. That's not deep enough to kill someone, that's not deep enough to trap any summons Animal Path might conjure up, and Preta could simply absorb it even if he got trapped. Konan was floating nearly the whole time she was there.

I'm not sure the way Jiraiya used this Jutsu when he was drugged can be considered particularly "strategic" either.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 24, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Icegaze, nothing you're saying is logical. Most of what you're presenting requires a user to create a seal, which they cannot while immobilized in the dense swamp. I explained in detail how Susano _cannot_ save Itachi, Susano cannot get out, and neither can Itachi. Read my post.
> 
> I disagree with almost all of your points bar Minato, Ei and Onoki, three ninja who do not have to make hand seals to initiate their Jutsu and three ninja that have techniques capable of escaping the swamp either pre-sinking or post-sinking.
> 
> As far as Gaara's quick sand is concerned, you can grab onto and push sand off yourself, you cannot do the same thing under a swamp. Gaara cannot create quicksand either, all he does is grab onto the feet of the opponent, spin the sand around their feet and drag them down, it's not quicksand because he cannot wet the sand. Physically, the two techniques are entirely different. But, for the most part, Current Gaara in the desert would bury Itachi's ass with minimum effort, and no, his Susano is not escaping burial either.



the swamp catches their feet first does it not. You have no logic
the swamp has no feats of pulling anyone under even less pulling them so quick they cannot form a seal. susanoo and amaterasu requires no seals. 

Why cant the heat from amaterasu revert the swamp back?? heat up mud tell me what happens. 

I dont see how it can revert a cave back to normal after the cave having sage chakra+ a will of its own but a simple jutsu with chakra somehow is immune to being reverted. 

All of you show 1 singular feat of YM pulling anyone under. Ill wait 

read gaara technique again. If you can grab on to gaara sand i dont see why you cant do the same to the swamp. 

At least gaara sand actually has *FEATS OF PULLING SOMEONE UNDER!!* YM has baseless hype. From NF not even kishi. At least hype a technique kishi bothered to hype or that has feats. 

I seriously dont see how Mei for example cant use her lava to heat it up to revert it. or kurotsuchi

you are basically implying with no basis the second jiriaya forms the seal they are instantly pulled under. If so please show me feats. Human path was still clearly visible after the jutsu was used. His case is even worse he was already crouched down. Which means his height is already halved and still he wasnt sucked in immediately 

*For everyone you all call techniques like yata and daikodan featless. Oh it cant do this or that. how is YM different? it has never done anything any of you claim. Not once. For a technique used twice thats fairly bad*


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 25, 2015)

> the swamp catches their feet first does it not. You have no logic
> the swamp has no feats of pulling anyone under even less pulling them so quick they cannot form a seal. susanoo and amaterasu requires no seals.


Yes, the feat is a weakened Base Yomi Numa sunk 60% of a boss snake in under a second. 



> Why cant the heat from amaterasu revert the swamp back?? heat up mud tell me what happens.


Because he would be lighting his face on fire? Are you ignorant to the laws of physics? The swamp is pushing against his entire bodily structure, including his eyes. 



> I dont see how it can revert a cave back to normal after the cave having sage chakra+ a will of its own but a simple jutsu with chakra somehow is immune to being reverted.


1. It would light his face on fire
2. how does lighting a swamp on fire make the swamp go away? The earth did not simply move because of Natural Energy giving it life- it completely transformed into a fucking swamp. 



> All of you show 1 singular feat of YM pulling anyone under. Ill wait


Yeah, a boss snake, and it was weakened (drugged Jiraiya) without Natural Energy inflating it. 



> read gaara technique again. If you can grab on to gaara sand i dont see why you cant do the same to the swamp.


Because the sand is a solid form of a matter, the swamp is mostly liquid (wet mud)



> At least gaara sand actually has *FEATS OF PULLING SOMEONE UNDER!!* YM has baseless hype. From NF not even kishi. At least hype a technique kishi bothered to hype or that has feats.


It pulled 60% of a boss snake under while weakened and without Natural Energy inflation. 



> I seriously dont see how Mei for example cant use her lava to heat it up to revert it. or kurotsuchi


Because it would push the lava against her body and incinerate her instantly. 



> you are basically implying with no basis the second jiriaya forms the seal they are instantly pulled under. If so please show me feats. Human path was still clearly visible after the jutsu was used. His case is even worse he was already crouched down. Which means his height is already halved and still he wasnt sucked in immediately


For most ninja, this is correct. It appears on-sight and it sunk 60% of a boss snake in a panel instantly while weakened and without Natural Energy inflation. 



> For everyone you all call techniques like yata and daikodan featless. Oh it cant do this or that. how is YM different? it has never done anything any of you claim. Not once. For a technique used twice thats fairly bad


It sunk 60% of a boss snake while weakened and without Natural Energy inflation, in a panel. It immobilized Nagato's path, most of which can react to FRS speeds before it could leap off of the surface of the sealing.

Unless you have detailed knowledge on the technique, and can visualize Jiraiya making the seal or can sense chakra buildup, and have mid-kage level (War-arc Kakashi) reaction speed with high-kage level (V2 Ei) shunshin speed or have extremely fast Ninjutsu speed (Kamui, FTG, ST, Preta Path, Mokuton) you are not reacting and countering this technique before being sunk.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 25, 2015)

I don't see the problem.

Drugged Jiraiya, who could barely summon a frog, could almost sink a giant snake. I don't see why he cannot do a way bigger one when he is healthy and in Senjutsu. The only debatable about Yomi Numa is if it can be deeper or just larger.


----------



## Patrick (Jan 25, 2015)

It could potentially take out a lot of people but there is still quite a bit of counterplay to it. 

Raiton definitely counters it, as does ST Jutsu and there are probably some more counters to it.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jan 25, 2015)

Jiraiya should've just sinked armless Oro and injuried Kabuto instead of summoning Bunta. For some reason he spares them from the deadly swamp.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

For Yomi Numa, Itachi really would have to anticipate the attack itself and jump before the ground started sucking him in.

If he is too late then a legless Susanoo really may be in trouble.

Theoretically the same could happen with Gaara's sand but it may be easier to react to said sand than Yomi Numa and jump before the ground ends your game.

Not sure if Yomi Numa can be cancelled with raiton. In theory it should be possible given the raiton>earth elemental disadvantage...


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes, the feat is a weakened Base Yomi Numa sunk 60% of a boss snake in under a second.
> 
> Because he would be lighting his face on fire? Are you ignorant to the laws of physics? The swamp is pushing against his entire bodily structure, including his eyes.
> 
> ...



Sadly failed to sink human path with sage enhacement what happened there??

you must be an idiot. Clearly once the jutsu is initiated the person starts being pulled under they arent suddenly in the belly of some random swamp. 

heat up mud it dries up. Getting out of a rock made bottom would be easy for itachi 

it failed to sink human path 

it still failed to sink human path 

i can say that as many times as your oh it sunk a fodder snake. big whoop. 

heating the mud should troll it. no reason why not. its mud. 

also yomi numa is still very much featless. has yet to pull anyone under completely or even quickly why suddenly this technique drags people down yet failing to do so against human path is beyond me. 

oh yh and according to kishi yata trolls it. Both are featless jutsu one at least has hype.

btw being able to do anything to a fodder snake doesnt remotely equate to doing the same to a ninja. genin neji jukken a spider summon much bigger than kisame and killed it in 1 strike. hitting kisame with jukken wouldnt suddenly explode him. Fodder summons are just that fodder. Thats hardly a feat at all. 

Or i can say sasuke in a rush genjutsu manda therefore he can catch everyone in genjutsu.


@lostself because when jiraiya was 100% drug free and with senjutsu he still failed to sink human path. the restrictions of the technique were never explored so the excuse being it was a ceiling is bullshit. It was a ceiling however they were at ground level which means that could have been the foundation to a huge building above them. Why not just sink human path into this NF made abyss?

Why would putting chakra in your feet not work? its dragging you down and struggling is what keeps sinking you. 

Why cant raiton work. do you know a doton jutsu that can somehow tank raiton?? please mention one. because kishi made a very simply unnilateral statement. raiton>doton. most raiton users have A rank raiton techniques, so as far as the level of the jutsu is concerned their jutsu would easily be on par with yomi numa.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 25, 2015)

Were you not paying attention to the pipe system that extends throughout the entire building? _That's_ what Jiraiya jumped into, and it was _above_ the tunnel the _giant rhino_ made when it crashed into the wall, so why do you think they were at ground level?

Chakra to the feet shouldn't work because the swamp isn't passive, it has an active suction, much unlike water. If it didn't then Human would have been pulled out when Animal Path _decided to use him as a swing._

If you think about it, it also should have been dripping...



Arles Celes said:


> Not sure if Yomi Numa can be cancelled with raiton.



I'm not sure about it either.

I mean, we don't know what the elemental advantage really does to it.

It may just pierce straight through it and result in the target dropping to the bottom of the swamp anyway, and if it turns it back into solidified earth instead is it supposed to release the target somehow or will their legs just be stuck in solidified ground at this point?


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> For Yomi Numa, Itachi really would have to anticipate the attack itself and jump before the ground started sucking him in.
> 
> If he is too late then a legless Susanoo really may be in trouble.
> 
> ...



No it isn't easier to react to. Id say they are about the Sam. You're standing on the sand, and YM just appears. If your standing on sand, it's a done deal. Kimimaro tried so hard to get out of it and failed. He resorted to Bone Forest. Gaara doesn't just grab your feet, he sinks the sand you're standing on as well.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> For Yomi Numa, Itachi really would have to anticipate the attack itself and jump before the ground started sucking him in.
> 
> If he is too late then a legless Susanoo really may be in trouble.
> 
> ...



 I wouldn't be surprised if he could. He anticipated SM Kabuto's Suiton after all.


----------



## SSMG (Jan 25, 2015)

That wasn't itachi so much as it was kabutos illusion of itachi.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 26, 2015)

Yomi Numa's feats are so minor that it's difficult to say who would be "GG'd".  The technique is definitely capable of temporarily disabling a Pain path (who jumped _into_ Yomi Numa, on all fours no less) and is implied to be able to sink a lower-level snake.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 26, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Yomi Numa's feats are so minor that it's difficult to say who would be "GG'd".  The technique is definitely capable of temporarily disabling a Pain path (who jumped _into_ Yomi Numa, on all fours no less) and is implied to be able to sink a lower-level snake.



If that snake was low-level then what are those when Hidden Shadow Snake Hands jutsu is used?


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2015)

an even lower level dominos 
hence why that jutsu is fodder


----------



## Dominus (Jan 27, 2015)

No.

Manda > the snake Jiraiya used Yomi Numa on >>>>>>>>>>>>> snakes that come out of sleeves.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2015)

Lol I must have misunderstood you 
Of course snake hands is the lowest form of summoning there is 
And manda>>>>>>> the fodder snakes that got stuck when YM was used


----------



## Dominus (Jan 27, 2015)

The difference between that snake and Manda is smaller than the difference between that snake and those that come out of sleeves in my opinion which is why I don't think it's a low-level snake.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2015)

Size doesn't always equate to level
Take ma and pa which are much smaller than gamabunta

Those snakes which were YM'd are fodder . Nothing more probably even less 

at least snakes hands in CQC can be a useful jutsu


----------



## Dominus (Jan 27, 2015)

I don't see it that way for me it's:
Gamabunta~Manda
Gamaken~the snake Jiraiya used Yomi Numa on

Part I Gamakichi~those snakes that come out of sleeves


Ma and Pa's fighting style is different from that of the other toads but that's not the case with the snakes I'm comparing.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jan 27, 2015)

Gamaken is obviously stronger than those fodder snakes - I mean, you can't imagine Oro will summon those fodder snakes against the Akatsuki leader instead of Manda, not to mention it gets one-shotted by Yatai Kuzushi in Konoha invasion. 

Though there throws the question why Jiraiya will rather summon a toad to handle snake summons instead of sinking it with Yomi Numa directly.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 27, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Gamaken is obviously stronger than those fodder snakes - I mean, you can't imagine Oro will summon those fodder snakes against the Akatsuki leader instead of Manda, not to mention it gets one-shotted by Yatai Kuzushi in Konoha invasion.
> 
> Though there throws the question why Jiraiya will rather summon a toad to handle snake summons instead of sinking it with Yomi Numa directly.



Minato could restrain Kurama with Yatai Kuzushi, since that snake was summoned against two Sannin he could summon it against Pain too. Anyway maybe it wasn't exactly on Gamaken's level but my point was that it's closer to Manda than those little snakes.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2015)

You people have got to be doing this on purpose.

Fodder is not a power level, it is a measure of relevance. The snakes that were released into Konoha were fodder, but that didn't stop them from still rolling right over the multiple teams of Jōnin/Chūnin that tried to fight them with no difficulty.

So who cares?

The fact that the snakes are fodder does nothing to take away from their sheer size _(1)_, nor from their immense physical strength _(2)_, and as such it does absolutely nothing to take away from Jiraiya's feat with a _*"tiny"*_ _Doton: Yomi Numa_, since _those_ are the details that make the feat so impressive in the first place.



Legendary Itachi said:


> Though there throws the question why Jiraiya will rather summon a toad to handle snake summons instead of sinking it with Yomi Numa directly.



Probably because they'd still have to deal with Orochimaru himself (pretty sure he could have just latched his tongue onto a rock or something and reeled himself back to dry land, having a several story fall to do it in). I think that matters.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 27, 2015)

The snake is probably the sixth or seventh strongest snake we've seen in the series.  By "lower level", I don't mean that it's the same as the smallest snake in the series.  I just mean that Yomi Numa never really did much in the series.  Part of that is that Jiraiya was weakened in one of the two sole uses of the technique, but still: it was never portrayed a very impressive technique for someone of Jiraiya's skill. 

As the databook says _When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, [Yomi Numa] is an extremely effective technique._​Yomi numa is a technique that's best used for fighting a large number of opponents or gigantic creatures.  It's not worthless outside of that intended use, but as Jiraiya used it, it's only meant as a temporary disable.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2015)

Hold on now, Hexa.

The very databook entry you quote also says that the goal of the technique is to submerge the target completely.


*Spoiler*: _Databook 2 - Doton: Yomi Numa:_ 



_
Earth Release: Underworld* Swamp (土遁・黄泉沼, Doton: Yomi Numa)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, All ranges
User: Jiraiya

The more you struggle, the more you sink
A bottomless swamp from Hell!!

By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there. The size and depth of the created swamp depend on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp! When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, this is an extremely effective technique.

↓The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. *The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground.*
[picture of Orochimaru's snake summon caught in this technique]

This swamp goes down to abysmal depths!!_




Obviously if it does that they're going to drown to death, which ought to tell us that this is no "temporary disable" technique Jiraiya is using.

Yomi Numa being _extremely_ effective when fighting a large enemy or a large number of enemies doesn't mean it's straight up ineffective when fighting a single human-sized adversary.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 27, 2015)

It's a temporary disable against something like a Pain body.  Against what the technique is best used against--a horde of weaker opponents or a gigantic creature--it might just drown the opponent(s).

"Extremely" is databook parlance.  It's not that it's ineffective against a single human-sized adversary.  Just not optimal.  If it's set up well, like with the Pain body where Jiraiya managed to get the opponent to jump _into_ the Yomi Numa and trap _all four limbs_, then it's probably pretty good.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2015)

Hexa said:


> It's a temporary disable against something like a Pain body.



My answer to that is still this.



FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya was pumped full of Senjutsu when he was indoors- it's just commonsensical that Yomi Numa would be of limited use _there_ since he can't make a swamp deeper than the surface he uses the technique on (that would require him to be able to manifest his own earth and if he could do that he'd be spawning the technique in mid-air and all that jazz).



I think that if they were at, say, the Sannin battlefield for example, where Jiraiya had more than a couple feet at best to work with, Human would have been completely submerged as is intended by the technique.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> My answer to that is still this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not so much an "answer" as it is a possible explanation of why there's no evidence of the technique being effective in this sort of use case.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2015)

Yumi Numa is an amazing technique, both because it kills what it catches, and because it terramorphs the field.  Large targets and larges groups get sunk, while singularly agile foes, if not caught immediately, or who don't emergency jump into more swamp, lose their ability to evade in any direction.  

It's also spectacularly effective if done with some kind of distraction, or off an evasion.  Shoot a fireball.  Opponent jumps.  Make their landing zone a swamp.  Shoot fireball.  Opponent blocks or erects a defence.  Turn their area into a swamp.  Engage in taijutsu.  Target breaks contact and leaps back.  Turn their retreat zone into a swamp.  Turn area into a swamp.  Opponent leaps toward your safe ground.  Hold up an Oodama Rasengan for them to jump into.  Fire hair needles while they're in the air.  Grab them with your hair and dunk them in the swamp.  Summon a frog over their head for a food cart destroyer them, crushed into the swamp.  Combining the field control of Yomi Numa with the heavy ninjutsu of Jiraiya makes it shine brilliantly 1v1.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2015)

Dunking them with Ranjishigami would be hilarious. 



Hexa said:


> That's not so much an "answer" as it is a possible explanation of why there's no evidence of the technique being effective in this sort of use case.



A proposed possible explanation _is_ an answer. I'm not saying it's _definitely_ right, but since we know what it's _supposed to do_ and that's not it, and that simply getting an opponent's hands and feet stuck when you are wholly capable of making a swamp large enough to swallow them several times over otherwise makes not a lick of sense, that seems to make the most sense.

What you suggest sounds a lot more like Izumo's _supplementary_ Suiton: Mizuame Nabara, not Jiraiya's _offensive_ Doton: Yomi Numa.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2015)

Hexa said:


> That's not so much an "answer" as it is a possible explanation of why there's no evidence of the technique being effective in this sort of use case.



It's a rather fundamental explanation that's supported by the manga.

Manipulating existing earth and ground requires existing earth and ground.  Just like manipulating existing water sources with suiton requires existing water sources.  The more you have of either, the less chakra you have to spend creating the element yourself.

EX:  Itachi can't use his water drills out of thin air, because they require an existing body of water for the target to be standing on.  Without it, he would first have to spit out water, and then activate the jutsu when the target stands on it.  

EX 2: Sarutobi had to spit mud out of his mouth to make a doton wall on that roof, because the rooftop isn't made of an earthy material.  

EX 3:  Doton Golems can be formed straight from the earth, and some distance from the target.  But both while flying in the air, and when standing on a ceiling (non-dotonable material), Akatsuchi had to spit them out of his mouth.

You can get away with spitting up more element for your jutsu with projectile attacks like water dragons, and mud for walls and golems, but for stuff that effects the area around you, like water drills and yomi numa, it's clunky and poor and also looks stupid, and destroys their effectiveness as a sudden surprise attack.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2015)

It's very unfair to say that YM is not that good because it has been used on weak opponents (My apologies if i undertood incorrectly). The size of the snake is still there. And even if the snake's weight worked against itself, the swamp was deep enough to sink it.

And that's something that we cannot take away, no matter how weak the enemy is. It's like saying Amaterasu won't kill a Kage level because it has never done that.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> A proposed possible explanation _is_ an answer. I'm not saying it's _definitely_ right, but since we know what it's _supposed to do_ and that's not it, . . .


I meant that, even if you're right, you're left with no evidence of it sinking anyone.

It's a technique that's implied to be able to fully submerge the sixth or seventh strongest snake in the series and managed to sink the feet and hands of a Pain body (for a page, at least).  Its goal is to fully sink the opponent, and it probably can do so when it's used by a fully capable Jiraiya in the use-scenario that it's best at.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Hexa said:


> I meant that, even if you're right, you're left with no evidence of it sinking anyone.



No. I'm left with no _instances_ of it sinking someone, but that's not the same as being left with no _evidence_ of it sinking someone. I don't necessarily require the former, I can provide the latter.

I hope we're all educated enough to figure out that if the thing can sink a football field sized snake with earth-shattering strength it can sink a human-sized target, the _vast majority_ of which are nowhere near as physically formidable as the aforementioned summoning and _all_ of which are mere ants in comparison regarding size.

That by itself is evidence of it sinking someone _when used by even a drugged up Jiraiya_.

It's no minor feat- it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a football field sized, summon restraining strong, swamp suddenly blinking into existence beneath your feat at any given moment (since Jiraiya can even use it without being in direct contact with the ground) is exceedingly dangerous.

Since that's obviously not something just anyone can avoid, a good reason needs to be given as to why anyone should be able to avoid/escape this technique when used by a full-power Jiraiya (there's nothing really wrong with just assuming it will work otherwise). If I'm right about the incident with Pain, then the reply that "he didn't completely sink Human" can be thrown out in most instances.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I hope we're all educated enough to figure out that if the thing can sink a football field sized snake with earth-shattering strength it can sink a human-sized target, . . .


I don't know what to make of an argument of the form "If something very large sinks, then something much smaller will certainly sink as well".  It's demonstrably incorrect.

A lot of techniques live off either hype or actual feats in the manga.  Yomi Numa is a rare case, I think, where the hype isn't there and the feats are lacking, but nonetheless it's repeatedly brought up.  I feel like it exists in the minds as fans as a way to start up a discussion about fictional swamp rheology.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 28, 2015)

> Sadly failed to sink human path with sage enhacement what happened there??


His intention wasn't to sink him, the path was blind and the illusion the elder frogs were casting was nearly completed. Not to mention it was used on a ceiling, which defies the laws of physics, that is how powerful of a technique it is. 



> you must be an idiot. Clearly once the jutsu is initiated the person starts being pulled under they arent suddenly in the belly of some random swamp.


Reported. 

Are you suggesting Mei and Itachi are reacting to the technique with fireballs and lava instead of simply jumping above it? 



> heat up mud it dries up. Getting out of a rock made bottom would be easy for itachi


Yes it does, but when you're spitting out lava and fire into a wall of liquid mud, the fire and lava will be pushed back into your fucking face, melting you. 



> it failed to sink human path


Was used on a ceiling, wasn't his intention to sink him. Not that it matters, considering he already sunk 60% of an entire boss snake, which greatly out scales the vertical dimensions of a human corpse, thus he easily could have sunk him. 



> i can say that as many times as your oh it sunk a fodder snake. big whoop.


Fodder snake arguably 100x the size of Human Path, which was sunk vertically from the bottom of it's belly to the top of it's back canonically (roughly 100m deep) with a weakened yomi numa. 



> heating the mud should troll it. no reason why not. its mud.


I would love to see Itachi or Mei defy the laws of physics by spitting fire and lava into a lake of mud they are currently inside of, and it somehow not killing them instantly. 



> also yomi numa is still very much featless. has yet to pull anyone under completely or even quickly why suddenly this technique drags people down yet failing to do so against human path is beyond me.


Not at all, it's incredibly fast in initiation as displayed in both instances, and Jiraiya can control the level by which he sinks his opponent, as displayed. 



> btw being able to do anything to a fodder snake doesnt remotely equate to doing the same to a ninja. genin neji jukken a spider summon much bigger than kisame and killed it in 1 strike. hitting kisame with jukken wouldnt suddenly explode him. Fodder summons are just that fodder. Thats hardly a feat at all.


Not relevant whether or not the snake is fodder, which it is not. A single "fodder" (boss) snake is easily capable of wiping out armies in a matter of minutes, the Konoha military was powerless to stop 3 of them. The important thing it is submerged something that big that quickly, making it an impressive technique. 

All things considered, you're a terrible debater and have been for a very long time. I have no idea why I'm bothering with someone who thinks Yomi Numa cannot sink a human, when it already sunk a boss snake on panel. The level of madness it must take to conjure such a ridiculous logic-bending argument has to be without equal, you are literally denying basic visual scaling that even the dumbest cavemen would have had the ability to register. 

Big Monster Snake go under, but Tiny Human no go under? Me no understand.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I don't see it that way for me it's:
> Gamabunta~Manda
> Gamaken~the snake Jiraiya used Yomi Numa on
> 
> ...



actually gamaken is closer to aoda the or whatever its called the snake used in the war arc

the snakes jiriaya used YM on are namless. nameless snakes are fodder snakes. 

they are no less fodder than  the snakes coming out of anko sleeves


@flamming 
sniking a snake isnt remotely the same as sinking a human target
i got earth shatterign strength compared to a fly for example. a fly can stand on water i cannot 

the size of the snake worked to its disadvantage, thats all. big heavy things sink quicker. Also note a snake has no limbs and cant mold chakra. 
something no human target has a problem with


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Hexa said:


> I don't know what to make of an argument of the form "If something very large sinks, then something much smaller will certainly sink as well".



Something that sounds a lot better than _"it only partially submerged Human Realm when used on a ceiling where it logically *can't* even be made large enough to completely submerge a person (as it is originally intended to), therefore this offensive Doton is a temporary disable Jutsu that acts like supplementary Suiton"_ is what you ought to make of it.

"If something very large is ensnared by the swamp and unable to power out, then something significantly smaller and weaker can be ensnared by the swamp and will be unable to power out of it."

That seems entirely coherent.

"Doton: Yomi Numa ensnared a very large snake and it was unable to power out."

That's true.

I'm not seeing how the next step is incorrect?



> A lot of techniques live off either hype or actual feats in the manga.  Yomi Numa is a rare case, I think, where the hype isn't there and the feats are lacking, but nonetheless it's repeatedly brought up..



Because it's not lacking the feats and/or hype to do what people are saying it will do.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

Did Pain sink?  Yes.

Could Pain free himself?  No.

Therefore it can be assumed that he sank as far as possible, or as far as Jiraiya wanted him to.

Did the snake sink?  Yes.
Could the snake free himself?  No.

Therefore it can be assumed that the snake sunk as far as possible, or as far as Jiraiya wanted it to.  

The possible depth the snake sank is greater than the possible depth Pain sank, therefore it can be assumed that if Pain were to be sunk into the same sized swamp the snake were, he would sink to the bottom and be unable to free himself, which would be well over his head.


----------



## Hexa (Jan 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> "If something very large is ensnared by the swamp and unable to power out, then something significantly smaller and weaker can be ensnared by the swamp and will be unable to power out of it."
> 
> That seems entirely coherent.


It's not.  The force required to leave, for instance, a real-life swamp is proportional to the submerged volume (and area, too). The figure of interest is not really "strength" of the submerged-thing but the "strength per submerged volume".  The size of a gigantic creature works against it with this type of technique, which is probably why the technique is best-used against gigantic creatures (or large amounts of weaker enemies) according to the databook.

Likewise, if something big sinks--for instance in a body of water or a swamp--it does _not_ mean that a smaller object will also sink.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually gamaken is closer to aoda the or whatever its called the snake used in the war arc
> 
> the snakes jiriaya used YM on are namless. nameless snakes are fodder snakes.
> 
> they are no less fodder than  the snakes coming out of anko sleeves



FlamingRain already explained this.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

Hexa said:


> It's not.  The force required to leave, for instance, a real-life swamp is proportional to the submerged volume (and area, too). The figure of interest is not really "strength" of the submerged-thing but the "strength per submerged volume".  The size of a gigantic creature works against it with this type of technique, which is probably why the technique is best-used against gigantic creatures (or large amounts of weaker enemies) according to the databook.
> 
> Likewise, if something big sinks--for instance in a body of water or a swamp--it does _not_ mean that a smaller object will also sink.



If Human instantly sunk in a small swamp, how does Human not sink in a big swamp?


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

@ flamming and pirate 
you arent getting what hexa is saying at all. despite him using very simple english 
take a real swamp for example. an elephant would have more difficulty getting out of a swamp than i would. if both of us are submerged. its weight will simply work against it. 

the weight the elephant then has to move would be proportional to the volume of mud the elephant must displace to set himself free. which obviously would vastly exceed the volume i would have to displace

kishi already made it obvious for us to understand by clearly saying its best used against gigantic creatures. 
or large groups because it can restrain them 

any giant summon would have more difficulty setting itself free of that technique than any ninja. its common sense 

jiraiya making for example the same size swamp against a human target would be foolish waste of chakra 
seeing that the target regardless of the size of the swamp will still have the same volume of mud to displace to set himself free

you dont need to be thrown in an ocean to drow a pool would suffice. however to set yourself free the same volume of water would still need to be displaced.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Hexa said:


> The force required to leave, for instance, a real-life swamp is proportional to the submerged volume (and area, too).
> 
> Likewise, if something big sinks--for instance in a body of water or a swamp--it does _not_ mean that a smaller object will also sink.



This isn't just any old gravity-powered physical muddy water like you'd be trying to get through in a real-life swamp, though. The Jutsu has an active suction, hence why you didn't see any of it dripping when Jiraiya used it on the ceiling, why Human couldn't budge by merit of his own efforts, and why Animal was able to swing off of him without the guy so much as budging an inch. That's also likely why the snake is apparently already at the bottom of the swamp in the very panel Yomi Numa is cast (as implied by Jiraiya realizing he couldn't completely entrap the snake with it but that it was at least bogged down) with hardly any splashing.

I think _that's_ the force that was keeping the snake stuck, not the fact that it was big; it's what was keeping Human, who is also a lot tougher than the majority of ninja since he could catch punches from a Jiraiya that was in Sage Mode, stuck.

So to sort of echo POW here:

>Snake ridiculously > humans in size.

>Snake can apparently be completely engulfed by that swamp under normal (not drugged) circumstances.

>Therefore the swamp can be made big enough to completely submerge any ninja.

At the same time:

>Human Path (physically) significantly > most.

>Human Path couldn't move an inch in the swamp.

>Therefore most people can't force their way out of the swamp.


So even still getting caught in this thing is a gameover for most.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

> Likewise, if something big sinks--for instance in a body of water or a swamp--it does not mean that a smaller object will also sink.



Our point is that a smaller object (Human) sunk.

So if the swamp was made deeper, a smaller object (Human) would sink deeper.  

Jiraiya can obviously can adjust the width and depth of the swamp, and Human obviously could not escape the pull of Yomi Numa.

I hope this puts across for everyone the point flamming ran and I are trying to make.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

chakra in his feet as admitted by ichibe before he recanted his statement could be what prevented human path from sinking. And i believe thats what happened
also this active suction flamming invented is just that his fanfic
it is neither described that way or explained that way in the manga or DB 

it clearly says the more you struggle the deeper you sink. if it had an active suction struggling against it would mean getting pulled in slower wouldnt it


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> chakra in his feet as admitted by ichibe before he recanted his statement could be what prevented human path from sinking.



That's silly.

I also don't think you want to go the route of "Kishi didn't say it was this way", because Kishimoto didn't say that water-walking would work. We know he's not above specifying it, too, as seen with supplementary Mizuame Nabra where he specifically highlighted "hey if you try the water walking technique before landing on this it works", and even then he said *only* before, not after. 

Yomi Numa is a _Doton_, and it is also labeled _offensive_ as opposed to supplementary. It _can't_ be merely powered by gravity because it has been used _*upside down*_ and worked, so trying to direct the Chakra to your feet to use as a repellant force against the surface shouldn't affect it either way, especially not _after_ your hands and feet are already _below that very surface_ that the technique applies to (there's a reason why when ninja go underwater they have to actually swim/float out before they can stand).


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That's silly.
> 
> I also don't think you want to go the route of "Kishi didn't say it was this way", because Kishimoto didn't say that water-walking would work. We know he's not above specifying it, too, as seen with supplementary Mizuame Nabra where he specifically highlighted "hey if you try the water walking technique before landing on this it works", and even then he said *only* before, not after.
> 
> Yomi Numa is a _Doton_, and it is also labeled _offensive_ as opposed to supplementary. It _can't_ be merely powered by gravity because it has been used _*upside down*_ and worked, so trying to direct the Chakra to your feet to use as a repellant force against the surface shouldn't affect it either way, especially not _after_ your hands and feet are already _below that very surface_ that the technique applies to (there's a reason why when ninja go underwater they have to actually swim/float out before they can stand).



ST is a superior level technique powered by gravity yet chakra in feet is a counter to it 

No reason to assume the swamp has auction or it would have a mind of it's own 
It's a swamp a muddy swamp at that 
Which as u struggle you succumb to it 

Kishi didn't say chakra in feet is a counter but he didn't say it wouldn't work 

No reason to think a technique as haxxd as you exaggerate it to be wouldn't have been used more often 
It's an offensive jutsu alas every jutsu has a weakness 

Imagine susanoo weakness is ground based attacks. Tskuyomi the ability to fight blind etc 

Jiraiya had no reason not to sink human realm but he didn't 
That wasn't by choice


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ST is a superior level technique powered by gravity yet chakra in feet is a counter to it



That has nothing to do with anything, though. Being superior does not negate the fact that it's mechanics aren't even remotely the same as Doton: Yomi Numa's.



> No reason to assume the swamp has suction



I've given reasons. Actually engage that reasoning before saying there's no reason to assume the swamp has suction. I'm just going to assume you can't answer otherwise.



> He didn't say it wouldn't work.



He shouldn't need to.



> No reason to think a technique as haxxd as you exaggerate it to be wouldn't have been used more often



This is a terrible argument to use against Jiraiya of all people because he has had so few actual fights.

Let's see...

Jiraiya used Yatai Kuzushi _once_.

Gamaguchi Shibari _once_.

Hari Jizō _once_.

Kuchiyose: Gamabunta _once_.

Katon: Gamayu Endan _once_.

Ranjishigami _once_.

Sage Mode _once_.

Senpō: Goemon _once_.

Chō Odama Rasengan _once_.

Doton: Yomi Numa? _*TWICE!!!*_.



> Jiraiya had no reason not to sink human realm but he didn't



Jiraiya had a reason not to sink Human Realm and that reason was because the darn ceiling is not going to be more than six feet deep.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2015)

This is _ninja_ gravity flamming.  Of course it works upside down.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh- it _is_, isn't it?

Well bon of a sitch.

I concede all points.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

Mind proving the ceiling was as shallow as you claim 
Jiraiya didn't mention that as a reason for the technique failing 
I say the swamp has no suction because it isn't described that way simple as that 
If you want to give it suction , that's up to you but it's a swamp that prevents people from getting out and struggling simply sinks them in. If it has suction it would he closer to kamui

Also note if YM had suction it would be less useful against larger targets and not more useful as Kishi clearly stated 
Why and how else would an earth technique be more useful against a larger heavier target 
Due to the weight of that target . It's as simple as 1+1 =2


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ST is a superior level technique powered by gravity yet chakra in feet is a counter to it



Who says chakra to the feet can counter ST? It was the only method Tsunade could think about in order to try to fight Deva. But Deva said that everything is meaningless. He could've been talking about Pain as a whole, or about how useless would that method be against it.

Something curious when you consider that Katsuyu never told Naruto to counter Pain with said method.

And even then, Yomi Numa and ST are very different jutsus. The substance where the shinobi will be standing will still be pulling down. But like i said, i seriously doubt that Chakra to the feet would counter a blast powerful enough to home run 3 boss sized Summons. And even then, again, if Tsunade's method can counter ST, the damage the blast will do will severely injure the target.

So it's not like it's a 'counter'.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Who says chakra to the feet can counter ST? It was the only method Tsunade could think about in order to try to fight Deva. But Deva said that everything is meaningless. He could've been talking about Pain as a whole, or about how useless would that method be against it.
> 
> Something curious when you consider that Katsuyu never told Naruto to counter Pain with said method.
> 
> ...



Kishi said so through tsunade 
And repeated it again with Gai and kakashi
While ST wasn't mentioned kakashi and Gai have counters to all path Jutsu 
What do you think the counter to ST is ?

YN doesn't pull people down it has no suction it's a swamp

People succumb to it . It's not it's dragging them down with magical hands


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Kishi said so through tsunade



Tsunade said nothing. She just used chakra to the feet. Deva saw it and said it was meaningless. Katsuyu saw Naruto having a hell load of troubles, and never told him to use chakra to the feet.

Nothing points to that being a viable method.



> And repeated it again with Gai and kakashi



They never talked about chakra to the feet to counter all pain's jutsu. The only weakness ST had and was heavily explored during Pain's fight was the cooldown. Chakra to the feet was never shown working or used as a mean to stop it.



> While ST wasn't mentioned kakashi and Gai have counters to all path Jutsu
> What do you think the counter to ST is ?



Cooldown. Kakashi and Naruto have shown exploiting the cooldown on ST. Not using chakra on their feets.



> YN doesn't pull people down it has no suction it's a swamp
> 
> People succumb to it . It's not it's dragging them down with magical hands




Why Human Realm was caught if he was heads down? He would've fallen off the swamp. But he didn't.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2015)

he wont have fallen off the swamp because it already had hold of him. it simply means the volume of mud to be displaced and the force required to displace it was superior to that of human realm weight. 

zero suction and even less reason to believe so. if it had suction it would look more like a whirlpool


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 29, 2015)

yomi isn't doing shyt to itachi or any other decent kage level ninja.




itachi can use yata mirror and the elemental wheel to negate dolton.
sharingon precognition and simply jump or quickly shushin out of the range or towards jiraiya, has crows and can probably have them fly over it.




use genjutsu on his way down and have jiraiya dispel the technique.
erect susano next to him and have it lift him out the swamp.




idk where the notation yomi gg came from, even back in part 1 the technique was presented as a very basic technique imo


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2015)

what BKprince said
even hax  and hyped techniques y kishi have fairly easy counters
its ridiculous that a jutsu with no one praise worthy mention would be capable of GG 

when people bring up amaterasu and we hear, he makes a clone before the jutsu is cast. or he throws a smoke bomb. 

which is faster a jutsu kishi calls instantaneous which was directly compared to a lightning strike in terms of speed 

or an earth jutsu that requires seals and is created under your feet. 

but hey who needs logic


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 29, 2015)

Actually, no. Amaterasu doesn't have easy counters. People saying that are on the same bandwagon with those saying Yomi Numa is not a powerful jutsu. Because they doesn't want their supported character losing to one single jutsu or any other reasons.

Amaterasu is only easly countered when you have sensing. And it's not only Amaterasu, any MS Jutsu is countered by sensing. Yata Mirror won't counter Yomi Numa considering it doesn't cover full Susano'o, let alone from it's feet.

And even if we consider that Yomi Numa doesn't pull you down, it surely _will_ bother someone like Itachi, because his only possible choice to get out of it is Susano'o trying to overpower or using it as a platform (If he doesn't trick Jiraiya with a clone). Why would it bother him? Because Susano'o is a taxing jutsu, while Yomi Numa can be used even easier.

But i surely don't want to get involved in an Itachi vs Jiraiya thread.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Mind proving the ceiling was as shallow as you claim



That isn't my little red wagon to carry. Most ceilings are not going to be more than six feet deep, if you want to claim that this ceiling was an exception to that rule that's up to you to come up with support for it.



> Jiraiya didn't mention that as a reason for the technique failing



Once again, he shouldn't have to.



> I say the swamp has no suction because it isn't described that way simple as that



Which is silly because we don't need an explicit mention of its suction when we've already seen it in action. If it had no suction it should have been dripping from the ceiling and Human Path should have been pulled out of it when Animal used him as a swing.

Did either of those things happen? No.

So it quite obviously has a suction effect.



> Also note if YM had suction it would be less useful against larger targets and not more useful as Kishi clearly stated
> Why and how else would an earth technique be more useful against a larger heavier target
> Due to the weight of that target . It's as simple as 1+1 =2



What? Having suction would not make the technique less useful against larger targets.

And you don't even know what Kishi meant when he said it was extremely effective against larger opponents/numbers of them. He could have simply meant that due to its potential AoE it's a lot easier to deal with those things using this technique than others like Rasengan.



Bkprince33 said:


> itachi can use yata mirror and the elemental wheel to negate dolton.
> sharingon precognition and simply jump or quickly shushin out of the range or towards jiraiya, has crows and can probably have them fly over it.



1.) Yata Mirror is a shield. You didn't see it shoot out a Suiton at Sasuke's explosive tags, did you? No, you just saw it tank the attack. It is passive in that sense, and it's not like we know what the Raiton-Doton interaction even is to begin with- if Itachi is sucked underground trying to negate the Doton with a Raiton may not even be the best idea as it may just turn the ground solid again with Itachi in it.

2.) The Sharingan isn't going to see it. The Rinnegan can see Chakra, too and yet Pain didn't see Yomi Numa on the ceiling when he was running down the hall at Jiraiya, actually he didn't even see that Kage Bunshin hiding in the wall until it moved. Madara's Sharingan also didn't help him notice Gaara's sand slipping under Susano'o in advance nor Ohnoki's Doton technique that raised part of the ground up.

3.) Itachi cannot jump far enough to clear a full power Yomi Numa- he doesn't have Tsunade-level hops, very few characters do.



> erect susano next to him and have it lift him out the swamp.



If he doesn't have Susano'o erected already he'll be swallowed up before it can turn, reach over and grab him. Besides, Susano'o moves with Itachi, even if he can exit freely. It has not shown to be able to simply act independently of him as it would need to in order to lift him out of the swamp he's drowning in.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That isn't my little red wagon to carry. Most ceilings are not going to be more than six feet deep, if you want to claim that this ceiling was an exception to that rule that's up to you to come up with support for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not dripping from the ceiling doesnt remotely imply it has suction. thats you making things up and  making more assumptions which i am getting bored of. 

the ceiling was at the bottom of some building, that ceiling could easily have been the foundation to a very high building. claiming he didnt sink human path because there wasnt enough earth is simply you making things up. kishi again never mentioned that was the reason human path did not sink 

having a suction would make it less useful against larger targets i seriously shouldnt have to explain that pulling a heavier object in would be harder than a lighter object. 

read the description of the jutsu, if u see any mention of suction you let me know 

till then its a technique which failed to sink human realm 

if u want to give it feats and blame it on things kishi didnt bother to mention it becomes a pointless debate. 

kishi clearly mentioned its useful against larger targets. the reason is obvious


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2015)

You can't prove things perfectly therefore my beliefs that I can't prove perfectly are correct.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> not dripping from the ceiling doesnt remotely imply it has suction.



It does. Very strongly, at that.  If I took a pool of muddy substance and flipped it upside down what would it do? Drip. If there was a pull in the opposite (in this case upwards) direction, however (re: suction), then there would be no dripping. A basic interpretation of the absence of dripping then would be that it points towards a suctioning force.



> thats you making things up and  making more assumptions which i am getting bored of.



Just a reminder, you are free to go be ignorant somewhere else, Icegaze. I'm not forcing you to reply last time I checked.



> the ceiling was at the bottom of some building, that ceiling could easily have been the foundation to a very high building. claiming he didnt sink human path because there wasnt enough earth is simply you making things up.



I already responded to this.

The pipe system extends all throughout the entire building- it practically makes up the dang thing, and where did Jiraiya go when he zipped out of the room where Pain was? That's right, into the pipes. Keep up now I'm not done. What were those pipes above- the gigantic hole made by the gigantic rhino charging into the wall and being punted away. So, there's no reason to think that they were at ground level, and there's no reason to think that the ceiling was particularly thick when there are pipes practically every other square foot in the building and it has multiple floors on the way up to the top.

The idea that in spite of this the ceiling was more than six-feet deep unlike 99.99% of all ceilings in general just absurd. It's just doesn't make sense to assume that's the case, so if you want to jump on anybody for unwarranted assumptions you need to look in the mirror and have a field day.



> kishi again never mentioned that was the reason human path did not sink



Kishi never mentioned that Jiraiya needed air to breathe, do we assume that he therefore can stay underwater indefinitely despite the fact that it flies in the face of common sense or what?



> having a suction would make it less useful against larger targets i seriously shouldnt have to explain that pulling a heavier object in would be harder than a lighter object.



Yomi Numa would generally be used on the ground, though; it's not harder to pull a giant creature downwards. Upwards yes, but please tell me when you think Jiraiya is going to be trying to pull giant summons into ceilings? Most of them can't even fit indoors the majority of the time, even less would be crawling across the top of the room.



> read the description of the jutsu, if u see any mention of suction you let me know



I don't need to.

Evidence does not have to appear in the form of databook descriptions of the Jutsu (and that is something you affirm if you're trying to push the stupid idea that you can just water-walk over the technique in spite of there being no mention of it whatsoever in the databook).



> till then its a technique which failed to sink human realm



Because it was on a ceiling; a ceiling that we have *no good reason* to assume was more than six feet deep.



> if u want to give it feats and blame it on things kishi didnt bother to mention it becomes a pointless debate.



The hypocrisy in this sentence is almost unbelievable.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2015)

Proof the ceiling has feats of being six feet deep.  I didn't see a databook statement of it being six feet deep.  These are assumptions and fan fiction.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

@flamming it has no suction
adesive chakra doesnt remotely imply suction. the rest is you just repeating urself. no suction

used against a fodder snake. doesnt remotely imply it can do anything useful against an actual ninja 

sakura can punch and kill fodder summons doesnt remotely mean if she punched kisame it would even put him down. 

take neji jukken utterly destroying the fodder spider. yet several jukken hits and kidomaru body is still there.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @flamming it has no suction
> adesive chakra doesnt remotely imply suction. the rest is you just repeating urself. no suction
> 
> used against a fodder snake. doesnt remotely imply it can do anything useful against an actual ninja
> ...



If it has no suction why was animal path pulled in while upside down from the ceiling?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Because Icegaze apparently doesn't know that's not the direction gravity works in.



Icegaze said:


> @flamming it has no suction



You repeating the same assertion _ad infinitum_ without providing any more support for it doesn't make it any more true.



> adesive chakra doesnt remotely imply suction.



That's not relevant to my argument.



> the rest is you just repeating urself. no suction



This is some neg worthy hypocrisy, right here. 



> used against a fodder snake. doesnt remotely imply it can do anything useful against an actual ninja



Summons are ninja animals, bro.

Anyway, we've seen what it does- the snake being fodder isn't pertinent. Being a skillful ninja doesn't suddenly enable you to avoid the swamp appearing benath your feet.



> sakura can punch and kill fodder summons doesnt remotely mean if she punched kisame it would even put him down.



War arc Sakura would kill him.



> take neji jukken utterly destroying the fodder spider. yet several jukken hits and kidomaru body is still there.



Kidomaru used armor that the spider did not, and that only has to do with Kidomaru's durability/resilience anyway, neither of which matter against Doton: Yomi Numa, so it doesn't follow from that example that because Jiraiya used Doton: Yomi Numa on a snake it can't kill anybody.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

all of you feeel free to provide panel evidence stating or implying YN has suction 
till then it does not. 
it wasnt described as so in any way

so no i know how gravity works. but applying real world logic step by step to kishi manga makes no sense. 

Mei spits lava and her lips dont burn off. go figure.  

if it had suction it would have a whirlpool effect. its as easy as 1+1=2

@sabre you dissapoint me

because YN has adhesive chakra. Human path got stuck to it. thats all that happened. he landed on a soft surface with his weight. common sense dictates that he will sink into something sticking on him. 

Same way spiders use the hairs on their legs to hang upside down. The hairs make them stick to the walls. Doesnt mean their hairs have suction cups on them or something


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

If Yomi Numa had no suction it's entire effect would be passive, and in that case it would be labeled a supplementary technique, but it's an offensive technique- to be offensive requires that it be actively aggressive by definition. Gravity is not an effect produced by Yomi Numa itself, and mere adhesiveness doesn't suffice if Suiton: Mizuame Nabara is viscous enough to keep people like Kakuzu locked in place and still remain a supplementary Jutsu.

What, then, does it being labeled an offensive technique suggest considering that? An active suction.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If Yomi Numa had no suction it's entire effect would be passive, and in that case it would be labeled a supplementary technique, but it's an offensive technique- to be offensive requires that it be actively aggressive by definition. Gravity is not an effect produced by Yomi Numa itself, and mere adhesiveness doesn't suffice if Suiton: Mizuame Nabara is viscous enough to keep people like Kakuzu locked in place and still remain a supplementary Jutsu.
> 
> What, then, does it being labeled an offensive technique suggest considering that? An active suction.



Thats simple. the person sinking is an attack against them. being held in place isnt an attack. hence why one is offensive and one is supplementary 

that however doesnt imply suction at all. 

YN is offensive, because turning the surface into mud means the person can fall into it. falling into something doesnt require that thing to actively pull you in 

gaara quick sand jutsu is offensive as well, no suction involved there either. 



if either technique actively pulled the ninja in. it would be in the jutsu description


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Thats simple. the person sinking is an attack against them.



That would only be an attack against them if Yomi Numa was actively sucking them in.

If Yomi Numa's only attribute is adhesiveness then it isn't offensive, because gravity is independent of Yomi Numa and therefore if the person sinking is no more than the result of gravity acting on them while they happen to be stuck, Yomi Numa itself wouldn't be doing the sinking, gravity would be, and Yomi Numa would just be what they happen to be sinking into, thus remaining supplementary in its own right.

It's not supplementary, though, Yomi Numa itself is what is classified as offensive, therefore it has to be actively doing something, like sucking the target in.



> gaara quick sand jutsu is offensive as well, no suction involved there either.



Gaara's technique is offensive because after they sink he makes the sand apply pressure to his target until they get their bones crushed up, not because they sink into it.

Yomi Numa doesn't crush anything.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That would only be an attack against them if Yomi Numa was actively sucking them in.
> 
> If Yomi Numa's only attribute is adhesiveness then it isn't offensive, because gravity is independent of Yomi Numa and therefore if the person sinking is no more than the result of gravity acting on them while they happen to be stuck, Yomi Numa itself wouldn't be doing the sinking, gravity would be, and Yomi Numa would just be what they happen to be sinking into, thus remaining supplementary in its own right.
> 
> ...





notice kishi mentions suction 

lack of suction doesnt mean it isnt offensive.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> notice kishi mentions suction



What does this have to do with anything? I've already told you that we don't need an explicit statement of something to infer that said thing is the case.



> lack of suction doesnt mean it isnt offensive.



A lack of offensive properties does, and if Yomi Numa has no suction there are no offensive properties left to it.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

please tell me when something has happened that doesnt have an explict statement describing it working that way 

kishi is very simple in his explanation on how things work. 

its offensive if you can be drowned in it. for that, it doesnt need to pull you in. the floor keeps giving way. 

you being stuck in there drowning is an attack 

anywayz we arent going to agree, on this. i still maintain it has no suction. Makes no sense for it to actively pull you in


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> please tell me when something has happened that doesnt have an explict statement describing it working that way



Itachi breathing, Katsuyu's ability to communicate telepathically with Tsunade, the penetrative force of Ay's chop being more effective against Susano'o than the blunt force damage of the Liger Bomb and his regular punches, Ohnoki enabling Akatsuchi and Kurotsuchi to fly, (non-legged) Susano'o leaving the barrier open at the ground, etc.

I don't understand how you think you're in any sort of position to ask this of me anyway when you've been talking out of your butt about water-walking countering Doton: Yomi Numa, because that's not something Kishi explicitly stated. I also recall other instances of you doing that, too: Kishi never explicitly mentioned that decapitation would kill Tsunade, he never even implied it, but that didn't stop you from saying Tsunade would die from a lack of a head in spite of her regeneration technique.

So what gives?



> kishi is very simple in his explanation on how things work.



Simple explanations can be under-determinative.



> its offensive if you can be drowned in it.



You can theoretically be drowned in anything that's thicker than your nostrils are wide, that would include even Mizuame Nabara if you fell into it right.

Besides that drowning in Yomi Numa would be something that's made possible by the sinking that precedes it, so it would be owed to the agent that caused the sinking. I already said why if Yomi Numa has no suction it isn't itself what's actually causing the sinking, and if it isn't doing the sinking it isn't doing the drowning either (the drowning would be the subsequent effect of something independent of Yomi Numa itself acting upon the target in order to sink it). In that case Yomi Numa would just happen to be the place where the drowning occurred, leaving it in and of itself supplementary.

But Doton: Yomi Numa is an offensive technique, and it isn't one that relies on crushing its targets after they sink, so yeah...suction still seems like the best answer since that would be the only way Yomi Numa actively causes the opponent to drown by itself.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 30, 2015)

Did you just say we can't assume gravity pulls pulls down unless Kishi says so?  When we assert gravity keeps everyone in the manga from flying off into space, are you going to call those baseless assumptions and fan fiction until Kishi explicitly states it, and gives it feats on high level ninjas?


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Itachi breathing, Katsuyu's ability to communicate telepathically with Tsunade, the penetrative force of Ay's chop being more effective against Susano'o than the blunt force damage of the Liger Bomb and his regular punches, Ohnoki enabling Akatsuchi and Kurotsuchi to fly, (non-legged) Susano'o leaving the barrier open at the ground, etc.
> 
> I don't understand how you think you're in any sort of position to ask this of me anyway when you've been talking out of your butt about water-walking countering Doton: Yomi Numa, because that's not something Kishi explicitly stated. I also recall other instances of you doing that, too: Kishi never explicitly mentioned that decapitation would kill Tsunade, he never even implied it, but that didn't stop you from saying Tsunade would die from a lack of a head in spite of her regeneration technique.
> 
> ...



Ah now you being silly 
Kishi description of how a technique works is explicit 
So no he doesn't have to say itachi breathes that not a technique 
Katsuyu telepathic communication is one that he didn't care to mention 
So not even a valid example . What I and sayin dis show me a jursu which works differently from how Kishi described it to be working 
If Kishi didn't describe the jutsu then it's not even valid in this discussion 

Tsunade dying if she looses a head is my theory . It has no basis never said it did 
Just me thinking that she cannot heal without her brain attached to her body 

Also note the brain is something that can't regenerate even in real life . Hence my theory 

That's all. Kishi said she can't die in battle so long as she can heal therefore factually that's what Kishi intends 

again if YN had suction the mud wouldn't need to be adhesive . It would already have a force pulling you in


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Katsuyu telepathic communication is one that he didn't care to mention



He mentioned the technique itself and the steps it heals with in databook 4, so...him not mentioning the specifics of the mental connection simply counts in my favor, not yours.

Jutsu descriptions are not immune to being under-determinative.



> What I and sayin dis show me a jursu which works differently from how Kishi described it to be working



There's no need for me to do that because nothing in Yomi Numa's description rules out a suction effect, meaning I'm not necessarily saying that it works differently than how Kishimoto described it when I say it has a suction effect. At most I'm saying Kishi didn't bother to specifically highlight every single detail about it, just like he didn't highlight how Tsunade and Katsuyu can apparently read each others minds during the network healing technique.



> Also note the brain is something that can't regenerate even in real life . Hence my theory



Brain cells can regenerate in real life. They usually don't, but they _can_ if provided with a sufficient stimulant to induce them into splitting again, which in this case should be Tsunade's Chakra stock.



> again if YN had suction the mud wouldn't need to be adhesive . It would already have a force pulling you in



Suction doesn't necessarily preclude adhesiveness nor vice versa.

Tsunade already has enough power to one-shot people with her natural strength, that didn't prevent her from developing the Chakra-charging strength enhancement on top of that. Ay is already faster than most people in base, that didn't stop him from developing RnY on top of that.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He mentioned the technique itself and the steps it heals with in databook 4, so...him not mentioning the specifics of the mental connection simply counts in my favor, not yours.
> 
> Jutsu descriptions are not immune to being under-determinative.
> 
> ...



Do you know how suction works ?
For YN to have suction it would mean YN has a predetermined depth and at that depth am unknown force drags you in. I mention chiyo suction technique because anytbinf with suction can be plugged 

That would mean it would be less effective against large objects the same way kamui is 

Jiraiya would need a bigger suction force to prevent the summon from simply plugging the hole jiraiya creates . 

Either way we are both just theorizing but to me Kishi won't have mentioned it being effective as isn't large summons if it had an outside force since that required more of jiraiya to pull it in. Meanwhile with how I believe it works once he changed the surface area the animal size it's is downfall


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Do you know how suction works ?



Yes.



> For YN to have suction it would mean YN has a predetermined depth and at that depth am unknown force drags you in.



So?

Jiraiya determines the depth of the swamp.



> I mention chiyo suction technique because anytbinf with suction can be plugged



If it sucks in enough stuff, yes. I don't think anybody ever said that Yomi Numa couldn't possibly be plugged up, though. Jiraiya didn't complain about the swamp being too small because the snake still had room to be sucked further in.



> That would mean it would be less effective against large objects the same way kamui is



No it wouldn't since the technique isn't nearly as costly and can be so much more easily adjusted for size than Kamui as a result.

And once again you don't even know in what respect it's supposed to be extremely effective against large creatures or large numbers of enemies- that may well simply be due to the sheer scale it can be manifested at because it allows for them to be cleaned up in one move as opposed to multiple ones as would be required by most other techniques (Jiraiya could not, for example, run through like 50 opponents and kill them all with one Rasengan, but he could drop them in one go using Yomi Numa- hence the extreme effectiveness in comparison).



> Jiraiya would need a bigger suction force to prevent the summon from simply plugging the hole jiraiya creates .



He could have the same suction force and it just happens to be powerful enough to hold a boss summon.



> Meanwhile with how I believe it works once he changed the surface area the animal size it's is downfall



There's no way that animal's size alone was responsible for that. lt was already at the bottom when it was realizing that it was being sunk. It had just been on the ground- it didn't plummet from 1000 meters in the air; even in normal and not even muddy water that's way too deep too fast a submerge for gravity alone to be responsible, and it's also way too tiny a splash.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in short we arent going to agree. i do not conceed nor do you. Just note if u have a suction force strong enough to hold a boss summon down. them human path would have been instantly crushed. he however was not. or did jiaiya not want to crush him out of love for nagato?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Just note if u have a suction force strong enough to hold a boss summon down. them human path would have been instantly crushed. he however was not.



I wouldn't be to sure about the same guy getting back up after kicks from Sage Mode Jiraiya and catching punches from him getting instantly crushed by that, but whatever.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I wouldn't be to sure about the same guy getting back up after kicks from Sage Mode Jiraiya and catching punches from him getting instantly crushed by that, but whatever.



are you now somehow trying to claim he has super human strength or durability? 

they arent sandaime raikage or kisame. even deva path cant take an SM naruto kick without flying 

outside asura path. the path have basic durability u would find from ninja of that level. 

but yes whatever. anything to make a point. hint hint at human path somehow now being so strong he cant be crushed.

though seriously maybe that just means HM jiraiya isnt that physically strong


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> are you now somehow trying to claim he has super human strength or durability?



Yes. You don't need to be the Third Raikage or Kisame to have super-human durability. Deva path flew, yes, but he didn't get his arms broken off or anything- and that says a lot considering just how enormous Naruto's physical strength is in Sage Mode.

Human got kicked in the face by Jiraiya and the only thing that happened was that his eyes got damaged for a while, even though earlier Jiraiya sent that gigantic boss-sized ram sailing through the air and apparently released the summoning in doing such. It definitely takes more than basic durability in order to get back up after getting hit by anyone in Sage Mode.



> though seriously maybe that just means HM jiraiya isnt that physically strong



Don't even joke.

You'd have to be either blind or illiterate in order to seriously think that.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 1, 2015)

kakuzu blocks a bijuu strike. yet his attacks fail to kill asuma on impact. 
sending a fodder summon flying off panel does nothing to show jiraiya is super strong. 

nothing at all. his punch got blocked casually by a path never mentioned to have super strength

people kishi has gone at length to call them super strong

1)sakura
2) tsunade
3)EI
4)Ei dad
5) kisame
6) gai 
7) jinchurikis
8) naruto- kishi bothered to show naruto can actually kill someone with a punch. something jiriaya cant do 

so nope no path is super strong. human path would not have been able to block Ei punch at all


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakuzu blocks a bijuu strike. yet his attacks fail to kill asuma on impact.



Because he only attacked Asuma when he was in base; he was using Doton: Domu to ridiculously harden his skin when he blocked wild Matatabi's paw strike.



> sending a fodder summon flying off panel does nothing to show jiraiya is super strong.



He sent a bigger summon than the chameleon Sakura K.O.'d flying further and yet you don't think he's super strong even though Sakura is super strong.

That is dumb.



> nothing at all. his punch got blocked casually by a path never mentioned to have super strength



You need to get off of this "not explicitly mentioned thing" like Kishi or anybody is trying to write for people with IQs of 10.

Jiraiya is super strong because that is a benefit present in the very nature of Sage Mode (it just comes along with the transformation), so _in catching Jiraiya's_ punch Human shows himself to be super strong as well.



> people kishi has gone at length to call them super strong



Kishimoto has gone at length to point out that Senjutsu drastically enhances physical attributes (which encompass strength), too. Guess what? Jiraiya was using Senjutsu.

Btw, Kisame and Gai (from base through most, though not all, of the gates, at least) have no feats that even approach that of Sage Mode users.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Feb 1, 2015)

Strong enough to beat ninja like Itachi. Not strong enough to beat ninja like Minato.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 1, 2015)

> FlamingRain said:
> 
> 
> > Because he only attacked Asuma when he was in base; he was using Doton: Domu to ridiculously harden his skin when he blocked wild Matatabi's paw strike.
> ...


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 1, 2015)

Icegaze we saw it get hit by a Rasengan- it didn't look remotely the same. Rasengans grind into it for a second and then send it flying; when it rammed Jiraiya into the wall it just plain went flying afterwards without being pushed back beforehand, and it was actually de-summoned whereas Gamahiro had to finish it off after it got hit by Naruto's Rasengan. I think that's supposed to be something of a precursor to Naruto's feat of tossing the rhino, too, so I'd say it was either smacked in the face or flung that way.

Look at Fukusaku's example of Senjutsu's effects on its users again _(1)_. It makes you super strong. If that doesn't hammer the point home then...well...let's just hope it does.


Kabuto uses a different Sage Mode, too, so even if his transformation didn't dramatically enhance his strength that wouldn't take away from the fact that it's already been established that that's what Jiraiya and Naruto's Sage Mode transformation does.

But are we sure that Kabuto's Sage Mode doesn't make him super strong to begin with? I wouldn't be because I'm pretty sure that most ninja would fail to casually rip off Itachi's arm with their teeth, and the only other thing Kabuto ever actually physically hit besides Itachi himself was the edge of Itachi's blade.


Also, my bad about Matatabi's paw strike- it seems Kakuzu there was no color change signaling that did activate Doton: Domu (at least on panel), but then...it also seems that his block wasn't very successful as he got pounded into the floor anyway.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Icegaze we saw it get hit by a Rasengan- it didn't look remotely the same. Rasengans grind into it for a second and then send it flying; when it rammed Jiraiya into the wall it just plain went flying afterwards without being pushed back beforehand, and it was actually de-summoned whereas Gamahiro had to finish it off after it got hit by Naruto's Rasengan. I think that's supposed to be something of a precursor to Naruto's feat of tossing the rhino, too, so I'd say it was either smacked in the face or flung that way.



what this implies is jiriaya physical strikes do more damage than odama rasengan. do you seriously believe that. again it happened off panel. jiraiya could done anything. it didnt have to be a physical attack. shima+pa+jiriaya could have hit it. we would never know 



> Look at Fukusaku's example of Senjutsu's effects on its users again _(1)_. It makes you super strong. If that doesn't hammer the point home then...well...let's just hope it does.



kabuto still isnt super strong. nor is hashirama 




> Kabuto uses a different Sage Mode, too, so even if his transformation didn't dramatically enhance his strength that wouldn't take away from the fact that it's already been established that that's what Jiraiya and Naruto's Sage Mode transformation does.



jiriaya physical strength was never established. his sage mdoe was imperfect. grantd he got stronger. but so does kakuzu with domu. it however doesnt remotely put either on Ei level of strength 



> But are we sure that Kabuto's Sage Mode doesn't make him super strong to begin with? I wouldn't be because I'm pretty sure that most ninja would fail to casually rip off Itachi's arm with their teeth, and the only other thing Kabuto ever actually physically hit besides Itachi himself was the edge of Itachi's blade.



was implied or stated or shown. why does it have to make him stronger? is hashirama stronger?



> Also, my bad about Matatabi's paw strike- it seems Kakuzu there was no color change signaling that did activate Doton: Domu (at least on panel), but then...it also seems that his block wasn't very successful as he got pounded into the floor anyway.



he wasnt crushed and killed thereofore he stopped it even if we want to now claim he wasnt all that successful. and as you just said that was in base. 

am not saying jiriaya isnt stronger in sage mode. he however isnt above the likes of kakuzu in strength and doesnt have montrous strength. it doesnt mean he cannot toss a boss summon. very sure kakuzu can do that with ease. jirobo could throw away choji despite their size difference. 

all am getting at is human realm is infinitely far from having super human strength


----------

