# KCM Naruto vs Edo Itachi



## Psp123789 (Dec 19, 2013)

Location: Uchiha temple

Distance: 30 meters

Mindset: IC

Knowledge: None

Restrictions: KSM, BM, BSM, clones and summons

Conditions: Naruto starts in KCM and has sealing tags, Itachi starts with his MS out. Also I'm allowing edo itachi to use healthy itachi's speed and strength because apparently it decreased when he became an edo. 

This is basically current Naruto restricted to only using KCM w/o clones and summons vs Edo itachi

Scenario 2: Itachi can summon 100% Katsuyu


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## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2013)

Itachi camps in Susano'o until Naruto runs out of chakra from using Shunshin to avoid Amaterasu-spamming. Then he takes Naruto down with one stab/slash.

It feels strange seeing Itachi of all people win a battle of attrition for a change.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

If Naruto is his  at that stage, he gets hit with Tsukuyomi. Simple as that. Maybe because of Karasu Bunshin feint distracting him for Itachi to zoom in and make eye contact.

If he's fanon-smart (e.g. would've turned Nagato to stone there) then he'd quickly force Itachi into his best Susano'o, but probably get outplayed all the same after some time passed.

Mechanically speaking, Naruto has arguably more going for him, but the author wouldn't have him beat Itachi at that stage, and that's apparent from how Kishi had him hold Naruto's hand back then. 

If this is peak living Itachi, who gets a speed boost relative to the discrepancy between Edo Madara, or Edo Deidara/Sasori and their living counterparts' feats, then he's that much better.​


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## ueharakk (Dec 19, 2013)

Naruto still wins.

Itachi's eyes still went blind from izanami, MS usage doesn't cause physiological blindness, the blindness is caused by* the eyes slowly sealing themselves* just like what izanami did.  So he can't just go spam crazy on his MS techniques even if he has unlimited chakra without suffering some kind of penalty in the long run.

Tsukuyomi, not really an option due to naruto's speed and him being a perfect jink.

Amaterasu, pretty much worthless considering naruto just chakra-arm it off his cloak and outright dodge it while simultaneously escaping itachi's LoS.

Susanoo: Fuuton rasenshuriken shaves a layer or two off of it if its not blocked by yaata. Chou oodama FRS ends itachi if he doesn't dodge it like Hashirama.  *Bijuurasengan* destroys his susanoo considering Naruto was using *this* to bust through *this.*  Totsuka most likely won't hit him due to his speed.  Magatama have an even worse chance of doing so, but they can be a distraction like what happened with kabuto.

Flash shunshin behind susanoo + Bijuurasengan to the back spells gg.... but then that awkward moment where naruto realizes he has no way to defeat an edo.  But then he read the op and finds a bunch of sealing tags in his ninja pouch, but decides not to use them since kishi's writing this fight and itachi must win.


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## Veracity (Dec 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi camps in Susano'o until Naruto runs out of chakra from using Shunshin to avoid Amaterasu-spamming. Then he takes Naruto down with one stab/slash.
> 
> It feels strange seeing Itachi of all people win a battle of attrition for a change.



How the hell does Itachi camp in Sussano, when a flaming FRS hits him in the Adam's apple? His susano is not tanking more then  2 FRS' S so get that shit out of here.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> How the hell does Itachi camp in Sussano, when a flaming FRS hits him in the Adam's apple? His susano is not tanking more then  2 FRS' S so get that shit out of here.



I doubt the Rasenshuriken is threatening to Itachi's Susano'o. Black Zetsu is the guy that knows about the Rinnegan, Kamui, Hiraishin, etc. and he didn't skimp on hyping its defensive capabilities.​


ueharakk said:


> Flash shunshin behind susanoo + Bijuurasengan to the back spells gg



You really see Kishi doing that with the dude that was manhandled by Nagato's gecko and then forgot that Nagato absorbed chakra after seeing it, and also fighting the Paths of Pain?​


ueharakk said:


> Tsukuyomi, not really an option due to naruto's speed and him being a perfect jink.



Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchūriki, Naruto said that Tsukuyomi would finish Bee, a true perfect jinchūriki, and its been stated many times that the partner methods don't work. Only dōjutsu.​


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## Veracity (Dec 19, 2013)

We shouldn't be using hype here or else Hiruzen would solo them both.

We should just stick to feats because that is the most reasonable.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> We shouldn't be using hype here or else Hiruzen would solo them both.



There's legitimate hype and illegitimate hype. Iruka and commoners hyping Hiruzen as the strongest of the Hokage is illegitimate because Iruka and commoners are fodder that don't know shit.

In contrast, Black Zetsu was the information gatherer of Akatsuki and knows just about everything, so even if the Yata Mirror isn't completely invincible, it's safe to assume that it's close.

Similarly, Zabuza hyping Haku's jutsu as being too much for Kakashi back in the Wave Arc is near-legitimate, because Zabuza knew Haku personally and had fought Kakashi previously.

People accept what they want to, however, but that's how I view things. If the hype is grounded with knkowledge, then it's worth factoring into consideration in matches.

And before Elia beats me to it, Itachi nor Kisame knew of Jiraiya's ability when hyping him, just his title as Sannin. Hence why Kisame was confused why they were retreating after fighting him.​


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm at my limit with this debate. I can VIVIDLY even remember the day after the chapter Naruto raped the Zetsus.

To think this would be debated all these years later.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2013)

Strat, you once told me that the comparison of feats was more stimulating to you. What changed?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Strat, you once told me that the comparison of feats was more stimulating to you. What changed?



Of course feats are more concrete for discussion, but I've never completely disregarded legitimate hype from people that know all, or at least most of the variables. 

It's when Iruka starts acting like he's seen all the Hokage fighting or when good-guy Itachi (allegedly) says that Jiraiya can take on his entire organization that I draw the line.

In the case of the Yata Mirror, I'm not saying it can tank the Jūbi's bijūdama, but given black Zetsu's impressive knowledge, it's safe to say that it'll tank Shinra Tensei, Rasenshuriken, etc.​


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2013)

So why are you using a split Chakra, novice KCM Naruto and comparing him to the current, more battle experienced perfect Jinchuriki?

Sure, Naruto has blonde moments every now and then, but he has Kurama to aid him should it really become a problem.



Strategoob said:


> In the case of the Yata Mirror, I'm not saying it can tank the Jūbi's bijūdama, but given black Zetsu's impressive knowledge, it's safe to say that it'll tank Shinra Tensei, Rasenshuriken, etc.




I've always taken its hype into account. Considering the 3rd Raikage could get up from Rasenshuriken, I don't think a buffed Susano'o is going to lose that battle. However, there are ways around a hand held shield.


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## ueharakk (Dec 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You really see Kishi doing that with the dude that was manhandled by Nagato's gecko and then forgot that Nagato absorbed chakra after seeing it, and also fighting the Paths of Pain?​


If:
- Naruto's mindset in this fight is not wanting to fight
- has such low KCM chakra that he can't make any clones
- is up against someone who's a level above edo itachi
- wants to give itachi the spotlight in this fight in order to teach naruto lessons about values and analysis 

then no, I see naruto canceling his KCM mode, going base and running right into totsuka.

However, if this was  fight to the death with no outside help, you could have base naruto up against edo itachi and naruto would win it as the manga is called Naruto and naruto can't die.  So any fight to the death with no outside help battle goes to naruto by default if kishi is writing it and if he's not fighting sasuke (who also dies).



Strategoob said:


> Naruto wasn't a perfect jinchūriki, Naruto said that Tsukuyomi would finish Bee, a true perfect jinchūriki, and its been stated many times that the partner methods don't work. Only dōjutsu.​


1) Naruto not being a perfect jinchuriki means he doesn't know about partner method.
2) Jinchuriki partner method =/= shinobi to shinobi partner method as bijuu share the jinchuriki's experiences and are in direct chakra link to their partners at all time, thus they can immediately snap them out and can snap them out of jutsus that slows down the perception of time for their jink
3) Unless stated otherwise, this is current naruto not the one from 545

not like tsukuyomi would ever hit someone as fast as naruto when you consider what was required to get people in it in all of it's previous showings.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So why are you using a split Chakra, novice KCM Naruto and comparing him to the current, more battle experienced perfect Jinchuriki?



I thought I made it clear that I was referring to KCM Naruto as he appeared in that timeframe manga. I don't think him being at 100% would make a difference, as it's his behavior that would lose it.​


ueharakk said:


> not like tsukuyomi would ever hit someone as fast as naruto when you consider what was required to get people in it in all of it's previous showings.



Tsukuyomi is obviously easier to land than taijutsu or ninjutsu. It's instant upon sight. Like Hiraishin. But instead of tagging someone, you just have to make surprise eye contact.

Fast ninja aren't always moving with super-shunshin either. Hence Naruto being slapped around by Obito's jinchūriki, A getting stabbed by Sasuke's Chidori, KCM Minato not blitzing Zetsu, etc.

Similarly, the partner method, in all variations, won't work. It's an exchange of chakra between beings. But by the time the trade occurs, the instant of Tsukuyomi has already ended. Easy concept.​


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 19, 2013)

kcm naruto wins naruto can use TKB and have all his clones spread out and shunshin around itachi. The clones will make FRS, planetary rasengans, and massive rasengans. Itachi cannot block and stop all these rasengans coming at him he and his sasunoo will be demolished leaving him open to be attacks by 30+ KCM narutos


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## Psp123789 (Dec 19, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> kcm naruto wins naruto can use TKB and have all his clones spread out and shunshin around itachi. The clones will make FRS, planetary rasengans, and massive rasengans. Itachi cannot block and stop all these rasengans coming at him he and his sasunoo will be demolished leaving him open to be attacks by 30+ KCM narutos


Clones are restricted.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 19, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Clones are restricted.



Oo itachi rapes then this isn't a fair fight. Itachi can spam Amaterasu and stop KCM narutos movements, use finger genjutsu to stop him completely and while kurama is busy trying to get naruto out of genjutsu naruto is sliced by V3 sasunoo blade


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I thought I made it clear that I was referring to KCM Naruto as he appeared in the manga. I don't think him being at 100% would make much of a difference, as it's his derpy behavior that would end him.​




He's had two 'derpy' moments, and they aren't much worse than Sasuke, a "smart" character, charging at the big ass Raikage with a sword, and then Chidori. Naruto's also had is fair share of clever moments.

And as I said, Kurama can easily keep him from making foolish mistakes in battle. Could Itachi capitalize on an idiotic action by Naruto? Sure. But I do not see that as the most likely outcome. Especially not with the massive speed, firepower, and strength differences, plus the auto counter to nearly every single one of Itachi's illusions.

Tsukuyomi is highly debatable to this day. The normal partner method would fail, but Jinchuriki _aren't_ normal. If the Bijuu perceives Tsukuyomi within the same time frame of their Jinchuriki (ie. for 72 hours), then they have plenty of time to snap it.


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## ueharakk (Dec 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke not casting genjutsu when A or Tobirama were staring at the Mangekyō doesn't mean its impossible. Tsukuyomi is obviously easier to land than taijutsu or ninjutsu. It's instant upon sight.​



If Sasuke didn't cast a genjutsu on them, then it either means they weren't in a situation where he wanted to cast one (tobirama) or they simply weren't looking at his MS (ei).  



Strategoob said:


> Fast ninja aren't always moving with super-shunshin. It should be obvious that the contrary is true and that they very _rarely_ use those speeds, hence Naruto being slapped around by Obito's jinchūriki.


Sure, but that's already taken into account with the inability to hit them with genjutsu.

Plus, the naruto who got slapped around was so low on KCM he was phasing in and out and only using rasegans and chakra arms, so it's not like he even could use his FTG shunshin.



Strategoob said:


> Similarly, the partner method, in all variations, won't work. It's an exchange of chakra between beings. But by the time the trade occurs, the instant of Tsukuyomi has already ended. Easy concept.


It's like you've ignored the part about the bijuu's experiencing everything including the slowing of time like the jinchuriki.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He's had two 'derpy' moments, and they aren't much worse than Sasuke, a "smart" character, charging at the big ass Raikage with a sword, and then Chidori. Naruto's also had is fair share of clever moments.



Sasuke wasn't a smart character back then. He went batshit insane for a bit after fighting Itachi, which is why the tactical brilliance of Hebi Sasuke devolved into publicly storming the Kage Summit.​


Rocky said:


> And as I said, Kurama can easily keep him from making foolish mistakes in battle. Could Itachi capitalize on an idiotic action by Naruto? Sure. But I do not see that as the most likely outcome.



Maybe, maybe not. The longer the battle lasts, the more likely it is to happen. The Yata Mirror should grant Itachi the time needed to trick Naruto and hit him with Tsukuyomi. 

Naruto and clones flawlessly flickering through v4 Susano'o, Amaterasu, Itachi's feints, and genjutsu before flashing behind Susano'o and hitting it with a bijū ball seems like a stretch to me.​


ueharakk said:


> It's like you've ignored the part about the bijuu's experiencing everything including the slowing of time like the jinchuriki.



It's like you don't understand that that has nothing to do with the physical exchange of chakra having to happen the instant after Tsukuyomi, which is done in less than an instant. 

The manga and databook say Bee is incapable. The author has Naruto say it. The author says in DB2 that, at that time, only an elite Uchiha (Obito) could break it. Not Bee, who was also alive.​


ueharakk said:


> or they simply weren't looking at his MS (ei).



He was clearly looking at the Sharingan, then the Mangekyō. While still. The problem with your speed argument speedsters are never moving at all times, least of all with flickers.

We see that with A vs Sasuke, Minato vs Tobirama, Naruto vs Itachi, Naruto vs A... pretty much every fight ever, really. And many people don't even need to be tricked into looking at the Sharingan.



But just like with landing ninjutsu with a clone feint, genjutsu can and has been landed that way as well. Itachi's genjutsu can be cast after his karashu bunshin disperse, as it disorients the enemy.​


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## ARGUS (Dec 19, 2013)

Naruto in KCM was stated to have been able to use TBB 
If he can use it then he can win .... Assuming that naruto is friends with kurama

If this is naruto tht fought itachi in canon then he loses 
Itachi is bound to outsmart naruto many times and thus wins the match


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## Sadgoob (Dec 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Especially not with the massive speed, firepower, and strength differences, plus the auto counter to nearly every single one of Itachi's illusions.



You know I don't think there's a  difference, particularly with peak Itachi, or a  difference when they're using chakra, or when they're both in base.

(And I'm obviously not about to factor in Godsenshuriken, but I do agree Naruto will win if he's allowed that badboy. )

I do think there's a significant difference in intelligence, however, and I already explained why Tsukuyomi can be broken with the partner method, regardless of bijū being inside genjutsu too.

We've seen the Hachibi break Bee out of two genjutsu. The first one, the Hachibi didn't notice until Bee had faceplanted. The second one against Itachi was much faster. 

Neither showed the Hachibi inside the genjutsu, but merely telling Bee to snap out of it, probably because he was watching his chakra system with varying degrees of vigilance.

Hence there's no real reason to believe the Hachibi would be inside Tsukuyomi with Bee, and it doesn't matter, since a _physical_ exchange of chakra must occur, but can't occur in the same instant. ​


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## Ersa (Dec 19, 2013)

Normally I'd peg KCM Naruto as Edo Itachi's superior but not without clones. Yata's Mirror will guard him against standard FRS and I'm confident V4 can take 1 FRS to the back. Without clones Naruto will struggle to blindside Itachi, his speed is a good deal faster yes but Itachi's reflexes are floating around EMS Sasuke's ballpark so he isn't getting blitzed. And if this is a healthy Edo Itachi then he isn't getting blitzed in a million years, Edo Deidara is possibly around Sai's speed and Deidara could handle Hebi Sasuke so yeah the difference is huge 

Not to mention blindsiding will be harder if Itachi throws 3-4 clones to guard his back. Naruto will burn out sooner or latter while Itachi steadily recharges and builds a mass army of clones slowly. Swamping the battlefield with Amaterasu also gives Naruto less room to go for a FRS blindside.

Naruto isn't setting up an COFRS without clones either, unless Itachi has a mental breakdown.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He's had two 'derpy' moments, and they aren't much worse than Sasuke, a "smart" character, charging at the big ass Raikage with a sword, and then Chidori. Naruto's also had is fair share of clever moments.
> 
> And as I said, Kurama can easily keep him from making foolish mistakes in battle. Could Itachi capitalize on an idiotic action by Naruto? Sure. But I do not see that as the most likely outcome. Especially not with the massive speed, firepower, and strength differences, plus the auto counter to nearly every single one of Itachi's illusions.
> 
> Tsukuyomi is highly debatable to this day. The normal partner method would fail, but Jinchuriki _aren't_ normal. If the Bijuu perceives Tsukuyomi within the same time frame of their Jinchuriki (ie. for 72 hours), then they have plenty of time to snap it.



Kurama does help naruto like hachibi gets help from naruto naruto will make foolish mistakes that will get him in trouble. Itachi being one of the most intelligent ninjas will benefit from narutos lack of intelligence. Naruto is the type to jump into battle and think later itachi will make him pay for that mistake by either smashing him with sasunoo arms or Amaterasu . 

Illusions are never auto countered it always takes several seconds for someone to be taken out of genjutsu that will be used to itachis advantage. By the time naruto snaps out of it he could be finished every moment counts. Look how long killer bee was out cold by sasuke that is enough time for itachi to finish naruto off


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 19, 2013)

Tsukiyomi should still work.

You basically have two possible scenarios, bijuu either experience the same time dilation as their host or they don't experience that same time dilation.

If they _don't_ experience that time dilation, tsukiyomi is too fast and they never get the chance to break it.

If they _do_ experience that time dilation, they still have to physically transfer their chakra in the real world to end the illusion. They can't transfer their chakra in the real world to end the illusion if their no longer in real-world time though and share the same time as their host.

Either way tsukiyomi works since kai is an action that has to take place in the real world.
At least that's how I understood it from what strat was saying.

Whether or not he'd get hit is open to debate but I don't think anything is saving him if he does get caught in that genjutsu.


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## ueharakk (Dec 19, 2013)

^^^  I don't see how the bijuu can't kai while they are experiencing time slowed down.  The genjutsu  sasuke used on bee put him in an imaginary world where he was getting pierced by giant feathers, that didn't stop hachibi from zapping him out in the real world.  Same thing happens for tsukuyomi except this time, the hachibi has 72 hours to snap bee out.


and a healthy living itachi is no faster, stronger or reflexive than his edo form, none of kabuto's edos were ever implied in the least to have been weaker than their living counterparts except for madara.  If it's a retcon for edo tensei, then the retcon doesn't apply to the feats of earlier edos as those edos would have been weaker than they were before the retcon if kishi brought them back now.


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## Ersa (Dec 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> ^^^  I don't see how the bijuu can't kai while they are experiencing time slowed down.  The genjutsu  sasuke used on bee put him in an imaginary world where he was getting pierced by giant feathers, that didn't stop hachibi from zapping him out in the real world.  Same thing happens for tsukuyomi except this time, the hachibi has 72 hours to snap bee out.
> 
> 
> and a healthy living itachi is no faster, stronger or reflexive than his edo form, none of kabuto's edos were ever implied in the least to have been weaker than their living counterparts except for madara.  If it's a retcon for edo tensei, then the retcon doesn't apply to the feats of earlier edos as those edos would have been weaker than they were before the retcon if kishi brought them back now.


If Hanzo was brought back in his old state and Nagato was brought back crippled then why wouldn't Itachi be brought back sick? It's not just those but why would someone who reacted to Hebi Sasuke suddenly get blitzed by someone who not only is massively slower but has a pretty shitty _Shunshin_. Not to mention people like Kakuzu getting absolutely shit on by a bunch of fodders and Choji. Healthy Itachi should be faster and more reflexive then his Edo counterpart.


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## Rosencrantz (Dec 19, 2013)

Only Madara was shown to be superior from Edo to living because he was "feeling" the fight. No one else has shown such enhancements. So no need to apply them to Itachi.

Naruto's speed, knowledge, and Kurama make all genjutsu essentially useless. Amaterasu is avoided with shunshin. Smoke bombs and rasengan dust clouds help too. FRS and Chou Oodama FRS are all potentially efficient methods to break Susano as well as chakra claws underground. Sensing helps too. Naruto gets the solid win here. Unlimited chakra helps Itachi a lot here but he still likely gets the loss. Even without clones, KCM Naruto is still superior.


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## ueharakk (Dec 20, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> If Hanzo was brought back in his old state and Nagato was brought back crippled then why wouldn't Itachi be brought back sick?


Same reason itachi wasn't brought back blind, sasori wasn't brought back as a middle-aged piece of meat, same reason kimimaro wasn't brought back sick, and chiyo wasn't brought back as an amputee.  



Kyokan said:


> It's not just those but why would someone who reacted to Hebi Sasuke suddenly get blitzed by someone who not only is massively slower but has a pretty shitty _Shunshin_.


Why would someone who gets blitzed by land of waves arc sasuke be able to even see shinobi who move as fast as current kakashi, lee, and gai, block their attacks, and intercept them? 

 Why did Hiashi need help in order to defeat his brother who died years before the current time?
Why did kimimaro, a guy who considered weightless part 1 lee to be fast, dodge a KCM FRS?

By your logic, every edo tensei should show themselves to be far weaker in every physical area than their living counterpart.  That's obviously not the case, since kakashi and co aren't going around pulling off sai-level blitzes against zabuza and co or anyone else for that matter.  if they actually were weaker, they'd be stated to be weaker at least on one occasion, and definitely not getting feats that put them above their living counterparts.



Kyokan said:


> Not to mention people like Kakuzu getting absolutely shit on by a bunch of fodders and Choji. Healthy Itachi should be faster and more reflexive then his Edo counterpart.


Kakuzu had none of his hearts and an immortal body, so there's no need for caution against people he called fodders, and chouji was easily the strongest good guy on the entire battlefield.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Only Madara was shown to be superior from Edo to living



Sasori - blitzed
Deidara - blitzed
Hanzō - blitzed
Zabuza - blitzed 
Etc.

Basically everybody we saw before was superior while alive. The exceptions being Itachi, who we only saw "severely injured" (sick) and Nagato, who fought through his slower, weaker puppets. 

Oh, and Haku, who stated to have been holding back several times. The rest of the Edos, we had no comparisons for because they weren't shown alive, or weren't shown fighting (Chiyo.)

It's unlikely, however, that Darui would be casually slicing off Kinkaku's arm were Kinkaku alive (by hype,) which only goes to further support that edos were dulled.

Similarly, it was very apparent by blind Madara blitzing Sage Naruto that a speed boost occurred. Edo Madara was stated to be the only Edo Kabuto enhanced, meaning others wouldn't be better off.​


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## ueharakk (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori - blitzed
> Deidara - blitzed
> Hanzō - blitzed
> Zabuza - blitzed
> Etc.​





Sasori and deidara are the exact same thing, and that's obviously just plot at work considering if they were actually that slow and reflex-stunted that they would have been blitzed much earlier in the fight.

Hanzou was explicitly stated to have gotten weaker than his past self who trumped mifune due to him sheltering himself rather than risking his own life fighting in what he believed in.

Kakashi never clashed with zabuza in a head to head chidori vs beheader blade run, and it's to be expected of kakashi to blitz him in that situation considering how he blitzes V2 jinks, Sasuke and Naruto blitz much faster opponents in the same manner especially since current kakashi is much greater than land of waves kakashi.  



Strategoob said:


> Basically everybody we saw before was superior while alive. The exceptions being Itachi, who we only saw "severely injured" (sick) and Nagato, who fought through his slower, weaker puppets.
> 
> 
> Oh, and Haku, who stated to have been holding back several times. The rest of the Edos, we had no comparisons for because they weren't shown alive, or weren't shown fighting (Chiyo.)


Hell to the no.  Kimimaro: much faster as an edo than alive.
Haku: never holding back speed-wise only in respect to where he struck naruto and sasuke with his needles.  Blocks attacks from Gai and Lee, intercepts kakashi, while alive he was getting blitzed by LoW sasuke
Chiyo: still alive after fighting a KCM clone, mifune, and a squadron of samurai despite not even having puppets or her physical enhancements.
Hizashi: equalling his brother in taijutsu




Strategoob said:


> It's unlikely, however, that Darui would be casually slicing off Kinkaku's arm were Kinkaku alive (by hype,) which only goes to further support that edos were dulled.


The only reason it's unlikely is because Kin and Gin would have gone V2 which eliminates that possiblity, and Darui got the fluke of the century award when he got the jump on the brothers by saying 'sorry' one more time than the word 'dull'.



Strategoob said:


> Similarly, it was very apparent by blind Madara blitzing Sage Naruto that a speed boost occurred. Edo Madara was stated to be the only Edo Kabuto enhanced, meaning others wouldn't be better off.


Edo madara being kabuto-enhanced means that the others are not like him.  The only way your logic would be true is if EVERY edo shows a massive decrease in ability more so than blind living madara vs edo madara.  that's obviously not that case which means it's either a case specific to madara and madara alone, or it's a retcon in which it doesn't apply to any of the past characters.


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## Joakim3 (Dec 20, 2013)

In regards to the _Edo Tensei_ the only Edo's that where *canonically* weaker than their living selves where

Madara, Nagato & The 4 Hokage (minus Minato) as explained by Tobirama

Other than those 5, Every other Edo (from my perspective) was brought back with nothing less then full strength.. and then some (especially if they where suffering from a sickness)


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## FlamingRain (Dec 20, 2013)

Pretty sure Orochimaru used Edo Tensei _before_ taking over Zetsu.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Pretty sure Orochimaru used Edo Tensei _before_ taking over Zetsu.



I dont' think that's the case, as the Hokage note Orochimaru has Hashirama's chakra when they're revived, but it wouldn't matter. 

Kabuto was powering up his jutsu while leeching from Orochimaru's curse seal so the chakra power doesn't need to be present before the original casting to bolster the jutsu.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

One was blocked by sand and hit by base Naruto, Elia, and the other casually blitzed through Sage Naruto while blind. Combined with Madara blatantly saying he's stronger while living, it's definite.​


			
				Elia said:
			
		

> From were you came up with itachi being still sick?



All Edos barring Madara were resurrected at the age and condition they were when they died. Itachi having his body improved was never stated, and Kabuto said Madara's was unique in that way.​


----------



## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> One was blocked by sand and hit by base Naruto, Elia, and the other casually blitzed through Sage Naruto while blind. Combined with Madara blatantly saying he's stronger while living, it's definite.​
> 
> 
> All Edos barring Madara were resurrected at the age and condition they were when they died. Itachi having his body improved was never stated, and Kabuto said Madara's was unique in that way.​



- If you mean in chapter 560 it was SM Naruto. 
nut anyway, this is not a proof, it's just like when kishi made the jins able to hit KCM Naruto!

- When did madara say he's stronger while alive?
What I remember

Kabuto said Edo madara is stronger 2 times
madara said he fought the Gokage with full power
madara said he can *FEEL *the fight now because he's alive

None imply that living madara is stronger that his edo form. Madara's last statement is about
feeling the pain and the blood since he could not while being edo, that does not make him stronger. The only argument about that is Hashi's statement, but does he know about what
kabuto did to madara's body?

- The problem with the living itachi is that he had his illness and the pain caused by it. Edo itachi
does not feel any pain, and he was not coughing or anything of that, so his only problem vanished.

* I find it funny that itachi's fans were saying edo itachi is stronger than some characters as edo
cough* Jman cough* because he's stronger than edo. Then all of sudden they want him living stronger than he is as edo to say he's even stronger! That's kinda confusing!


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Literally none of those guys under performed if you take into account the conditions (no hearts





ueharakk said:


> will repeatedly just destroy your posts every time you make that claim that all the other edos were brought back in the same way as they died.



When responding to me and talking smack, try not to be wrong in the first sentence. It makes me not want to bother to respond to the rest of your post and link you to basic details of our debate.​


ueharakk said:


> Kimimaro (sickness), Itachi (sickness, eyesight)



There's nothing suggesting any of this was completely restored. Kabuto saying only Madara was improved beyond what he was when he died blatantly suggests the opposite.​


ueharakk said:


> Deidara (stitched up arms)



He didn't need stitches after edo regeneration, so what?​


ueharakk said:


> Sasori (age and body)



Edo Tensei doesn't deal with puppets, but cells and flesh. Hence why age and weakened cells from sickness would remain present unless otherwise stated, as it was only said for Madara.​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategos has a point here.

Literally every single EDO which we've seen fight before, underperformed.

Itachi performed better, but we are saying this because the only performance we can compare it to, was the one where he was holding back and dying. 
Nagato's techniques were stated to be stronger than of Pain's, but that basically means that using those techniques first hand gave better results than using them through remote proxies.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think that's the case, as the Hokage note Orochimaru has Hashirama's chakra when they're revived, but it wouldn't matter.​



He casts _Edo Tensei_ here _(1)_ and takes over Zetsu on the next page.

They only note that Orochimaru possesses Hashirama's cells once Orochimaru _actively_ restrains Tobirama _after_ he's taken over Zetsu, and specify that his cells amplified _the restraining properties_ _(2)_. They never accredit being brought back at nearly full power to Hashirama's cells.



> Kabuto was powering up his jutsu while leeching from Orochimaru's curse seal so the chakra power doesn't need to be present before the original casting to bolster the jutsu.​



Kabuto was only ever strengthening the _binding_ with Orochimaru's Chakra _(3)_, preventing them from getting lectured into freedom. He didn't seem to bolster the actual combat power of the _Edo Tensei_. I mean, outside of "stop resisting".


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> He casts _Edo Tensei_ here _(1)_ and takes over Zetsu on the next page.
> 
> They only note that Orochimaru possesses Hashirama's cells once Orochimaru _actively_ restrains Tobirama _after_ he's taken over Zetsu, and specify that his cells amplified _the restraining properties_ _(2)_. They never accredit being brought back at nearly full power to Hashirama's cells.



Hashirama's cells have been implied to amplify other jutsu, even Kotoamatsukami. If it amplifies the restraining properties of Edo Tensei after the jutsu had been cast, then it makes sense that it would amplify other properties too.

It would also explain why Orochimaru went from having Hashirama and Tobirama at 10% power in part one, the last time he had arms, to summoning them at 90% power this time...​


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> ^^^  I don't see how the bijuu can't kai while they are experiencing time slowed down.  The genjutsu  sasuke used on bee put him in an imaginary world where he was getting pierced by giant feathers, that didn't stop hachibi from zapping him out in the real world.  Same thing happens for tsukuyomi except this time, the hachibi has 72 hours to snap bee out.
> 
> 
> and a healthy living itachi is no faster, stronger or reflexive than his edo form, none of kabuto's edos were ever implied in the least to have been weaker than their living counterparts except for madara.  If it's a retcon for edo tensei, then the retcon doesn't apply to the feats of earlier edos as those edos would have been weaker than they were before the retcon if kishi brought them back now.



Naruto would die in tsukiyomi instantly
Itachi let kakashi live through his genjutsu in this fight itachi would go for the kill immediately     
The edos never showed speed, strength, or reflexes that compared to their living selves


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> When responding to me and talking smack, try not to be wrong in the first sentence. It makes me not want to bother to respond to the rest of your post and link you to basic details of our debate.​


Kakuzu didn't start off with those hearts and those hearts were off fighting all over the place while the real fought elsewhere, so it's you who should try not to be wrong and think about what I'm trying to say.



Strategoob said:


> There's nothing suggesting any of this was completely restored. Kabuto saying only Madara was improved beyond what he was when he died blatantly suggests the opposite.​


Sure there is, the fact that kimimaro thought that base lee who was still recovering from surgery was fast, the fact that both of them were coughing up blood in their fights as a direct result of their sickness, the fact that kimimaro didn't get lol sealed by an armada of samurai (who are strong enough to capture suigetsu and juugo), mifune and a KCM clone.




Strategoob said:


> He didn't need stitches after edo regeneration, so what?​


His arms were artificially sown back on with a connector made by kakuzu which is not a natural part of his body, so if he was brought back as an edo, he'd have had no arms.



Strategoob said:


> Edo Tensei doesn't deal with puppets, but cells and flesh. Hence why age and weakened cells from sickness would remain present unless otherwise stated, as it was only said for Madara.​


Who said anything about sasori's puppets being brought back?  This is what sasori looked like before death:

And *Sasori looks exactly like he does* *as an edo* despite chiyo saying he hasn't aged since the last time she saw him which was when he left the sand.



Lord Aizen said:


> Naruto would die in tsukiyomi instantly*
> Itachi let kakashi live through his genjutsu in this fight itachi would go for the kill immediately *


How does the bolded in anyway mean naruto would die in tsukuyomi?



Lord Aizen said:


> The edos never showed speed, strength, or reflexes that compared to their living selves




Haku, Zabuza, Hiashi's brother, Asuma, Chiyo, Kimimaro, Itachi, Nagato, have all been shown to be significantly weaker, slower, and less reflexive than their living selves?


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Edo Tensei brings back flesh as it was when it died. Sasori cut away his body except for his heart, so that body died. Deidara's arms hadn't died or whatever, so there ya' go. 

Aged and disease-ridden flesh clearly isn't within those parameters. And I'm not even going to bother with the assertion that Kimimaro would lose to Samurai. Don't try to troll me, boy!​


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Strategos has a point here.
> 
> Literally every single EDO which we've seen fight before, underperformed.
> 
> ...



Itachi held back so much he died at the end...  

Just saying, lets no exaggerate.


KCM Naruto pwns Itachi btw.  He doesn't even need sealing, because Itachi would beg to finally be put out of his misery after hours of repeated rape.
I mean, this isn't even close.  It is utterly ridiculous!


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Edo Tensei brings back flesh as it was when it died. Sasori cut away his body except for his heart, so that body died. Deidara's arms hadn't died or whatever, so there ya' go.​



Um, no edo tensei brings back the PERSON when they died, it's never stated or impled to bring back the particular piece of 'flesh' as it was when it died.



Strategoob said:


> Aged and disease-ridden flesh clearly isn't within those parameters.


Based on you completely and continuously ignoring my arguments for why they clearly ARE within those parameters.



Strategoob said:


> And I'm not even going to bother with the assertion that Kimimaro would lose to Samurai. Don't try to troll me, boy!


Well then it's a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  Not only that but you've just attacked as strawman as it's not Kimimaro vs samurai, it's Kimimaro vs an ARMY of Samurai, KCM Naruto's clone and Mifune.

Just stop, if you go through max effort to make a case, yet you can't even address the arguments that shut your case down, then it shows how unsupported your case actually is.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Um, no edo tensei brings back the PERSON when they died, it's never stated or impled to bring back the particular piece of 'flesh' as it was when it died.



Sasori's case shows that. Must we talk in circles?



ueharakk said:


> Well then it's a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



That's SuperSaiyanMan's philosophy, but not mine.



ueharakk said:


> Not only that but you've just attacked as strawman as it's not Kimimaro vs samurai, it's Kimimaro vs an ARMY of Samurai, KCM Naruto's clone and Mifune.



Not really. 

I didn't bother to correct your poor framing, but Chiyo was there too.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> How the hell does Itachi camp in Sussano, when a flaming FRS hits him in the Adam's apple? His susano is not tanking more then  2 FRS' S so get that shit out of here.



Susano'o protected Itachi from Kirin, so FRS will do absolutely nothing to it.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 20, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kakuzu didn't start off with those hearts and those hearts were off fighting all over the place while the real fought elsewhere, so it's you who should try not to be wrong and think about what I'm trying to say.
> 
> 
> Sure there is, the fact that kimimaro thought that base lee who was still recovering from surgery was fast, the fact that both of them were coughing up blood in their fights as a direct result of their sickness, the fact that kimimaro didn't get lol sealed by an armada of samurai (who are strong enough to capture suigetsu and juugo), mifune and a KCM clone.
> ...



Significantly no most of the edo you mentioned we did not see much of even in the anime asuma yes he got owned in 2 seconds, kimimaro was the same, itachi seemed much slower twice he did not even react to kabutos attacks muki tensai, and that slice that cut him in half. With MS. He should have reacted and or dodged to that  since kabuto is not that fast in sage mode. Nagato was significantly weaker he can not use the full power of the rinnegan as an edo


----------



## Vice (Dec 20, 2013)

Why would edo tensei bodies be reanimated with diseases or viruses if they, by design, are meant to be immortal, unkillable zombies? Edo Itachi is simply Itachi without disease and unlimited chakra. That's about as strong as he is going to get.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 20, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Susano'o protected Itachi from Kirin, so FRS will do absolutely nothing to it.



That's nice. What do  you have to prove that Kirin > FRS


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 20, 2013)

Vice said:


> Why would edo tensei bodies be reanimated with diseases or viruses if they, by design, are meant to be immortal, unkillable zombies? Edo Itachi is simply Itachi without disease and unlimited chakra. That's about as strong as he is going to get.



The damaged cells replicate just as they are, however. Old, damaged cells stay old. Diseased, damaged cells stay diseased. They just replicate perfectly from that point, negating death. 

The fact Edos aren't brought back in their bodily prime proves that Edo Tensei doesn't restore cells to perfect condition, and only maintains that condition before death perfectly.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The fact Edos aren't brought back in their bodily prime proves that Edo Tensei doesn't restore cells to perfect condition, and only maintains that condition before death perfectly.​




Then Itachi would've been blind.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Dec 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori - blitzed
> Deidara - blitzed
> Hanzō - blitzed
> Zabuza - blitzed
> ...



This is why I don't like dealing with Itachi fans and poor debaters as a whole. People are obsessed with this concept of "blitzing" and do nothing but obsess over it. Landing a hit on someone in a fight is not a blitz. Whenever someone gets hit in a fight someone is always crying out "blitz!" 

Sasori and Deidara? Being surprised by a sudden increase in speed (bird) and Sai landing a hit on the clay birds just constitutes a solid hit. Hanzo was specifically said to be weakened and again landing a hit on an opponent is not a blitz. And Zabuza was never shown to be blitzed. Kakashi's landed a hit on him. The same shit he did when he was alive.

Not at all. You just overestimated some characters and underestimated others. Also lack of understanding the manga. Hanzo was brought back weaker as was Nagato and Madara. Specifically said to be weaker.

Or Darui is just that good. Don't make up bullshit about what you think Kin and Gin level is based on nothing.

When someone blocks a hit, then it isn't a blitz. SM Naruto blocked. He was also exhausted. Of course unless its Itachi why would details matter to you Selim?


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Then Itachi would've been blind.



The eyes still worked after resting up. For Sasuke. ​


Rosencrantz said:


> This is why I don't like dealing with Itachi fans and *poor debaters* as a whole.



You're mean.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Who says he wasn't? ​







You can clearly see his Sharingan, in nearly every scan.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 21, 2013)

His Sharingan being visible doesn't mean he could see through it any more than having blue eyes means you can see through them. 

Can anybody confirm that super-sick-weakened-edo-completely-blind-Itachi could, in fact, see? 

He just sensed everything. Not with lame chakra sensing, because he doesn't have that ability, but the badass kind like . It's skill-sensing, bros. Unique to Itachi.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

The eyes only worked because when they get placed into a new person's eye sockets they lose the ability to go blind.

Even if they stared into the sun for 9 hours.

They just can't.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The eyes only worked because when they get placed into a new person's eye sockets they lose the ability to go blind.
> 
> Even if they stared into the sun for 9 hours.
> 
> They just can't.



Sounds like something Kishi would do, but so does Itachi's skill-sensing.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> His Sharingan being visible doesn't mean he could see through it.
> 
> Can anybody confirm that super-sick-weakened-edo-completely-blind-Itachi could, in fact, see?




Didn't know you could cast visual Genjutsu without eyesight.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 21, 2013)

Finger genjutsu is visual genjutsu, but Itachi's fingers only see pink.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

Amaterasu works without eyesight as well? 

Btw that was a fantastic edit.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 21, 2013)

If Susano'o does, then why not Amaterasu? 

ty


----------



## Rocky (Dec 21, 2013)

Well, Susano'o doesn't require a visual focal point to form. :ignoramus


----------



## Garcher (Dec 21, 2013)

Itachi outsmarts him and then one shot via Totsuka


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Itachi held back so much he died at the end...
> 
> Just saying, lets no exaggerate.



You might want read the manga, just saying.



ueharakk said:


> Who said anything about sasori's puppets being brought back?  This is what sasori looked like before death:
> 
> And *Sasori looks exactly like he does*
> 
> *as an edo* despite chiyo saying he hasn't aged since the last time she saw him which was when he left the sand.




Strategos is right bruv.

Sasori disposed his own body and put his soul into an artificial one.
ET obviously does not create the artificial body. So the body it created for Sasori was the one which Sasori dumped after leaving Sand Village.



Likes boss said:


> That's nice. What do  you have to prove that Kirin > FRS



Reading the manga proves it 

Not only that Kirin was protrayed to be a technique on a compltely different level, the destruction it caused was on another scale as well.

When FRS manages to bring down something as durable as Susano'o along with a mountain, check back with me and we can talk.



Rosencrantz said:


> This is why I don't like dealing with Itachi fans and poor debaters as a whole. People are obsessed with this concept of "blitzing" and do nothing but obsess over it. Landing a hit on someone in a fight is not a blitz. Whenever someone gets hit in a fight someone is always crying out "blitz!"
> 
> Sasori and Deidara? Being surprised by a sudden increase in speed (bird) and Sai landing a hit on the clay birds just constitutes a solid hit. Hanzo was specifically said to be weakened and again landing a hit on an opponent is not a blitz. And Zabuza was never shown to be blitzed. Kakashi's landed a hit on him. The same shit he did when he was alive.
> 
> ...



During my life of 31 years, I've learned that the simplest explanation is generally the best.

Instead of grasping @ straws to explain stuff, you can go with the simplest explanation here.

ET weren't as strong as the original. Makes more sense, and easier to comprehend.


----------



## RedChidori (Dec 21, 2013)

Itachi-Sama pwns . One swipe from Sword of Totsuka and it is over, hands down. Plus with the fact that Naruto's other Kyuubi Chakra enhanced forms and clones are restricted, which are the majority of Naruto's arsenal, the loss here is inevitable.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 21, 2013)

With clones restricted this is not a fair fight


----------



## Bonly (Dec 21, 2013)

Naruto should win the first scenario while losing the second scenario due to the great Katsuyu-Sama.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 21, 2013)

KCM Naruto destroys him, after all he can stack SM w/ KCM now and the combined might of those two things will overwhelm the hell out of him.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You have to make lots excuses and go with lots of interpretations to make a distinction between which EDO's were @ full power and which of them weren't.
> 
> Like I said, simplest explanation is that they weren't @ full power. What we've seen and heard pretty much underlines it very clearly.
> I don't think it is ambigous @ all.


You don't have to make a lot of excuses. You just have to read the manga. Madara is by far the strongest Edo summoned by Kabuto. Canon that you don't get all of rinnengan's abilities. Canon that Nagato was still crippled. The strongest two are just exceptions. And said exceptions are EXPLICITLY stated.

What we have seen is all of these Edos still using their same jutsu and being just as strong or stronger after death.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

The manga has Hashirama saying that Itachi puts him to shame. Canon. The manga has Madara's *will* saying Itachi was completely invincible. Canon. 

It seems pretty obvious that peak Itachi was way stronger than even Edo Itachi, if you bother to read the manga, Rosencratz.


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> KCM Naruto destroys him, after all he can stack SM w/ KCM now and the combined might of those two things will overwhelm the hell out of him.



Either would overwhelm him easily.   Seriously, Itachi is so ridiculously overhyped it isn't even funny!

Naruto in base is at the Kage level, and that's all Itachi is at as well.  It's stupid to assume he can compete with sages and the like.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

Base Itachi effortlessly beat a Sannin as an 11 year old. 

So he's obviously Kage level without his Mangekyō.

Hell, he's easily Kage level without Sharingan with dem stats.


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Base Itachi effortlessly beat a Sannin as an 11 year old.
> 
> So he's obviously Kage level without his Mangekyō.
> 
> Hell, he's easily Kage level without Sharingan with dem stats.



He was about 17, not 11.  This is an accepted fact throughout the naruto communities I have seen.  Only fanboys state otherwise, and they are rightfully scorned for doing so.   Also, his illness has weakened him, thus throwing off his true potential.

He needs his MS to be close to Kage level, otherwise he wouldn't have had such a hard time v/s Sasuke.  It's really a crutch to put him in that league honestly.


Naruto is Kage level without either the kyuubi or his sage mode.   Either of which clearly puts him on a far different level.
Thus, even a small child should understand just how much stronger he becomes over Itachi when he uses them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 22, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> You don't have to make a lot of excuses. You just have to read the manga. Madara is by far the strongest Edo summoned by Kabuto. Canon that you don't get all of rinnengan's abilities. Canon that Nagato was still crippled. The strongest two are just exceptions. And said exceptions are EXPLICITLY stated.
> 
> What we have seen is all of these Edos still using their same jutsu and being just as strong or stronger after death.



I guess when Tobirama said "we are almost @ full power this time" meant nothing.

Also Hashirama said Madara reached his full power after he was revived with Rinne Tensei, the Rinnegan thing came a week after that.

Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu underperforming also should tell you something.

Also being able to use the same jutsu and being able to use it to its full extend are two different things.
Like Tobirama said, they were all close to full power, just not exactly there.

edit : 



Shariwin said:


> He was about 17, not 11.  This is an accepted fact throughout the naruto communities I have seen.  Only fanboys state otherwise, and they are rightfully scorned for doing so.   Also, his illness has weakened him, thus throwing off his true potential.
> 
> He needs his MS to be close to Kage level, otherwise he wouldn't have had such a hard time v/s Sasuke.  It's really a crutch to put him in that league honestly.
> 
> ...



My dear dupe, we went there and I proved that he wasn't 17.


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 22, 2013)

Ohh look, more red herrings.


*Only fanboys state otherwise, and they are rightfully scorned for doing so.*
If you believe that misinformation, then it's no wonder your understanding of the series is so poor grim.

Do you also believe in creationism?  Do you believe that global warming is a hoax by scientist for funding?  Because I can bring up some bad sources that attempt to prove just that.  Real sources of course prove otherwise, but who are we kidding?  Just like the average Faux news sheep, you aren't interested in FACTS.  Ohh no, instead you want someone to tell you exactly what you want to hear!  Those are your 'facts'.

Bad source = Bad Information
It's that simple.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 22, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Ohh look, more red herrings.
> 
> 
> *Only fanboys state otherwise, and they are rightfully scorned for doing so.*
> ...



Go re-read those debates dupe. I am too lazy to dig up right now. But I proved that Itachi was somewhere around 12-14 during the time of the massacre.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Base Itachi effortlessly beat a Sannin as an 11 year old.
> 
> So he's obviously Kage level without his Mangekyō.
> 
> Hell, he's easily Kage level without Sharingan with dem stats.


Lets not oversimplify and get details wrong. Nor pretend that Orochimaru was trying to kill Itachi or pretend that Oro losing a hand is good enough to defeat him. Calm down kiddo.

Probably Low Kage level but definitely for other reasons.

Without sharingan Itachi is maybe Elite Jounin level. Part 1 Kakashi might be pushing it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I guess when Tobirama said "we are almost @ full power this time" meant nothing.
> 
> Also Hashirama said Madara reached his full power after he was revived with Rinne Tensei, the Rinnegan thing came a week after that.
> 
> ...



Orochimaru summoned them. Oro's Edo Tensei summoning was not as strong. Nevertheless a seemingly inferior Edo Tensei user in Orochimaru could summon back the strongest 4 in history at practically full power.

He didn't know his rinnengan was gone initially. Madara's crazy ass is also the only one talking about "feeling the fight." Nevertheless strongest shinobi in history and with all the mods he couldn't get him back to full power as Kabuto essentially already admitted.

Deidara used only C1. Sasori had no puppets and no puppet body. Their "underperformance" came from Sasori having no weapons and Deidara fucking around (having allies around doesn't help either cause it limits C2-C4). Kakuzu underperformed? We saw nothing. His ghosts were destroyed by Elite jounin Asuma and I believe one of the Rikudou items. The rest are not shown how they are destroyed. The main body apparently got ganged by Darui, Kotetsu, Izumo, and Chouji AT LEAST. How is that underperforming?

Yet everyone's jutsu have shown to be just as strong. Susano, Amaterasu, Deidara's bombs, Mu's Jinton, Gaara's dad (claimed Gaara surpassed him), Haku's mirror, Zabuza's mist, Nagato's attacks, etc. Not a SINGLE combatant noted how their jutsu were weaker, slower, etc. If it was evident it would have been noted from the jump. It was ONLY noted by the strongest in history.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The manga has Hashirama saying that Itachi puts him to shame. Canon. The manga has Madara's *will* saying Itachi was completely invincible. Canon.
> 
> It seems pretty obvious that peak Itachi was way stronger than even Edo Itachi, if you bother to read the manga, Rosencratz.



Did this mean strength? Did he say he was stronger than him? No? Then calm down. Do you know what hyperbole is? No? Then please take middle school English class and/or observe a dictionary.

You mean Living Itachi? Cause from what I can tell there is living Itachi, Edo Itachi, and fanfic Itachi. And Edo Itachi is obviously stronger than Living Itachi. Nothing you did in the first section counters it. Don't make yourself look sillier than you already have Selim.

Rosencrantz*


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Did this mean strength? Did he say he was stronger than him? No? Then calm down. Do you know what hyperbole is? No? Then please take middle school English class and/or observe a dictionary



Do you know what invincible means? 

Do you know what shinobi means?

I feel like both words pertain to fighting ability.

But feel free to stretch for excuses as far as you need to.


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## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Do you know what invincible means?
> 
> Do you know what shinobi means?
> 
> ...



Indeed I do. I take it that you are younger than 12 and do not have a access to a dictionary. That's ok. Go to dictionary.com and type in "hyperbole"  then maybe you will understand.

Indeed I do. Do you know what context means? Again, go to dictionary.com and type in the word "context" this time.

The first word is a hyperbole and the second word in the (incoming key word) "context" of the manga is general and does not necessarily pertain to fighting at all.

It's just called having above a 10 year old's vocabulary and having an elementary understanding of basic syntax and diction.

In your future attempts to try and prove a point, I suggest you think things through. You made your attempted point come off as even more ridiculous than before.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Indeed I do. I take it that you are younger than 12 and do not have a access to a dictionary.



Don't let my sexy, youthful appearance fool you.



Rosencrantz said:


> It's just called having above a 10 year old's vocabulary and having an elementary understanding of basic syntax and diction.



I don't understand you. Please use normal words.



Rosencrantz said:


> The first word is a hyperbole and the second word in the (incoming key word) "context" of the manga is general and does not necessarily pertain to fighting at all.



What indicates either? Other than your personal bias? If Hashirama wanted to say what you wanted him to say, then he would have said it instead of saying Itachi was a much better ninja than him and forcing you to argue that saying someone is a much better ninja _in this manga_ doesn't entail fighting ability.

Similarly, both the manga and databook adamantly state the same alleged hyperbole about Itachi's legendary items. Black Zetsu is extremely knowledgeable and hasn't used a hyperbole before or since. So again, it seems to me that you're biased and convicted, not thoughtful and insightful.


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## Vice (Dec 22, 2013)

It's amazing that it's almost been a year and you're still using that line completely out of context.


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## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> What indicates either?
> 
> If Hashirama wanted to say what you wanted him to say, then he would have said it instead of saying Itachi was a much better ninja than him and forcing you to argue that saying someone is a much better ninja _in this manga_ doesn't entail fighting ability.
> 
> Similarly, both the manga and databook adamantly state the same alleged hyperbole about Itachi's legendary items. Black Zetsu is extremely knowledgeable and hasn't used a hyperbole before or since. So again, it seems to me that you're biased and convicted, not thoughtful and insightful.


Already answered what indicates both: _It's just called having above a 10 year old's vocabulary and having an elementary understanding of basic syntax and diction._

It's called "common sense." Another term for you to look up! Has Senju Hashirama ever seen Uchiha Itachi? Does he know his fighting style? Does he know what jutsu he possesses? No? So how can he possibly gauge how strong Uchiha Itachi is and match up his own strength with him then? Were they talking about strength before that? No? Exactly. Contextually (one of the key words you are supposed to look up) the situation had nothing to do with strength. Hashirama is known to have beaten the strongest Uchiha in history, Madara Uchiha who had the aid of Kurama. Furthermore, the idea of "shinobi" has consistently been used throughout this manga to express something far beyond strength and not necessarily encompassing it. Jiraiya for example believed that being a ninja had nothing to do with power as long as you have the will to never give up. Kakashi and Obito both had the idea (That was then passed to Naruto) that abandoning your comrades makes you worse than shit i.e. a bad shinobi. Nothing to do with power at all. Using both "context" and "common sense," we are able to realize that his words had nothing to do with strength and the idea of being a "shinobi" does not have to do with strength. By the same logic, if Hashirama had said what YOU wanted him to say, then he would have said it. But he did not. Think carefully before you type.

Ok. Just like Neji and Gaara's "absolute" defenses right? Haku moving at the speed of light? Tsukiyomi being the strongest genjutsu? Amaterasu being the strongest physical attack? Amaterasu is unavoidable? They are all throughout the manga and the databook. A few coming straight from Black Zetsu's mouth as I so generously informed you. Then of course this is using the word "common sense" again.. Itachi's Susano is invincible with the items? Interesting. So that means 9 bjuus using bjuu dama, Madara's double meteors, Sasuke's PS Slash+Enton arrows, Kakashi's raikiri chain, a couple FRSs, Hashirama's ultimate mokuton jutsu, Kirin, Exploding chain tags, as well as Rikudou Sennin's Chibaku Tensei would have no effect on Uchiha Itachi because he is "completely invincible." He would also be the strongest shinobi to ever live and stronger than Rikudou Sennin for him to logically be completely invincible even when seconds away from death. Again one of your vocabulary terms, "common sense" should come to mind here. Uchiha Itachi was never portrayed as the most powerful shinobi to ever live and stronger than Rikudou Sennin. He admitted equality to Jiraiya for goodness sake who was defeated by Pain Rikudou.

Spent more time than I wanted responding, but it was enjoyable while it lasted. It was fun teaching you though. Thank you, come again.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Do you know what invincible means?
> 
> Do you know what shinobi means?
> 
> ...



Shinobi has already been canonically described as one who endures. Itachi endured much more than Hashirama did thus he is a much better Shinobi then he is in that sense. Clearly not from fighting ability stance as nothing he was told of Itachi had anything to do with fighting ability.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You know I don't think there's a  difference, particularly with peak Itachi, or a  difference when they're using chakra, or when they're both in base.
> 
> (And I'm obviously not about to factor in Godsenshuriken, but I do agree Naruto will win if he's allowed that badboy. )​


The Godsenshuriken...I like it.





> I do think there's a significant difference in intelligence, however, and I already explained why Tsukuyomi can be broken with the partner method, regardless of bijū being inside genjutsu too.


I think you are wrong here. I see Itachi and Naruto as being around the same intelligence level, but different areas. Where Itachi is smart in strategy and figuring out attacks, Naruto can adapt to a situation better and more efficiently in the middle of a fight. Naruto is starting to mature a lot faster, I believe in a couple more chapters he will be a genius.





> We've seen the Hachibi break Bee out of two genjutsu. The first one, the Hachibi didn't notice until Bee had faceplanted. The second one against Itachi was much faster.


 But to be fair, those genjutsu wasn't really environment changing genjutsus that Tsukuyomi is. And I think its a 50/50 shot of whether Naruto is put down by it, hurt of course but not unconscious.[wuoyr] 

Neither showed the Hachibi inside the genjutsu, but merely telling Bee to snap out of it, probably because he was watching his chakra system with varying degrees of vigilance.
[/quote]Kurama has also been more vigilant than the Hachibi throughout the manga. It seems as if Kishi has made the Hachibi lazy.





> Hence there's no real reason to believe the Hachibi would be inside Tsukuyomi with Bee, and it doesn't matter, since a _physical_ exchange of chakra must occur, but can't occur in the same instant.


Im confused at what you are saying here. Are you saying that Naruto can be caught in Tsukuyomi, but Kurama can't break him out immediately?

Kurama can break Naruto out the instant he realizes it. Also Naruto has genjutsu breaking methods and now that he has access to Kurama's chakra should be a cakewalk to break anything not Tsukuyomi.


I think with no knowledge and IC mindset that Naruto will be able to get the jump on Itachi before Itachi realizes that he needs Susanoo.

It could go either way, but I favor Naruto more times then not so like 5.2555/10.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

IchLiebe, buddy. Great response. It's truly deserving a long, serious response, but I don't have that in me at the moment. Still, great job. Keep it up. Thanks for being polite, serious, and conscientious in your reply.

I'll come back to it later sometime.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Shinobi has already been canonically described as one who endures.



"Shinobi" denotes endurance, but it _also_ denotes fighting capability. If Hashirama was specifying endurance, then he'd have said so, but he said Itachi was a better overall shinobi and _everything_ the shinobi profession entails.


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## Vice (Dec 22, 2013)

No he didn't.


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## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Shinobi" denotes endurance, but it _also_ denotes fighting capability. If Hashirama was specifying endurance, then he'd have said so, but he said Itachi was a better overall shinobi and _everything_ the shinobi profession entails.



Has Senju Hashirama ever seen Uchiha Itachi? Does he know his fighting style? Does he know what jutsu he possesses? No? So how can he possibly gauge how strong Uchiha Itachi is and match up his own strength with him then? Were they talking about strength before that? No? Exactly. Contextually (one of the key words you are supposed to look up) the situation had nothing to do with strength. Hashirama is known to have beaten the strongest Uchiha in history, Madara Uchiha who had the aid of Kurama. Furthermore, the idea of "shinobi" has consistently been used throughout this manga to express something far beyond strength and not necessarily encompassing it. Jiraiya for example believed that being a ninja had nothing to do with power as long as you have the will to never give up. Kakashi and Obito both had the idea (That was then passed to Naruto) that abandoning your comrades makes you worse than shit i.e. a bad shinobi. Nothing to do with power at all. Using both "context" and "common sense," we are able to realize that his words had nothing to do with strength and the idea of being a "shinobi" does not have to do with strength. By the same logic, if Hashirama had said what YOU wanted him to say, then he would have said it. But he did not. Think carefully before you type.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 22, 2013)

KCM Naruto wins by the skin of his teeth, in my opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 22, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Lets not oversimplify and get details wrong. Nor pretend that Orochimaru was trying to kill Itachi or pretend that Oro losing a hand is good enough to defeat him.


Itachi could have gone for the head.
I think the point is that Itachi had him defeated @ that point with his visual prowess. Kishi was basically establishing that Itachi was a much superior nin. Details like "Oro could have done that, Itachi could have done this" are pretty much irrelevant.




> Orochimaru summoned them. Oro's Edo Tensei summoning was not as strong. Nevertheless a seemingly inferior Edo Tensei user in Orochimaru could summon back the strongest 4 in history at practically full power.


I don't remember but was this stated ? That Oro's ET was weaker than Kabuto's ? 



> He didn't know his rinnengan was gone initially. Madara's crazy ass is also the only one talking about "feeling the fight." Nevertheless strongest shinobi in history and with all the mods he couldn't get him back to full power as Kabuto essentially already admitted.


Hashirama never fought a Madara who had Rinnegan when he was alive.
So nothing he said had anything to do with Rinnegan.



> Deidara used only C1. Sasori had no puppets and no puppet body. Their "underperformance" came from Sasori having no weapons and Deidara fucking around (having allies around doesn't help either cause it limits C2-C4). Kakuzu underperformed? We saw nothing. His ghosts were destroyed by Elite jounin Asuma and I believe one of the Rikudou items. The rest are not shown how they are destroyed. The main body apparently got ganged by Darui, Kotetsu, Izumo, and Chouji AT LEAST. How is that underperforming?



Kakuzu 1 paneled Kotetsu & Izumo back in the day and then he gets chopped in half by them.
Then gets off paneled by Chouji and a bunch of fodder.

Deidara dicking around doesn't justify why he got his ass handed to him by Sai.
Deidara was someone who fended off Team Gai with no arms, who did fine against Hebi Sasuke, someone who waltzed in to Sand village unprepared and abducted their Jinchuuriki Kage.

Yes, Sasori was summoned naked basically with no tools or whatsoever, in other words weaker than his prime.




> Yet everyone's jutsu have shown to be just as strong. Susano, Amaterasu, Deidara's bombs, Mu's Jinton, Gaara's dad (claimed Gaara surpassed him), Haku's mirror, Zabuza's mist, Nagato's attacks, etc. Not a SINGLE combatant noted how their jutsu were weaker, slower, etc. If it was evident it would have been noted from the jump. It was ONLY noted by the strongest in history.



Thats true. But the thing is, both Tobirama & Hashirama used everything they had when they were alive, despite not being @ full power.
I guess not being @ full power isn't directly linked to arsenal but overall skill/speed/reflex etc. 

Its like the instance where Kakashi confirmed Shouten Itachi's katon was the real thing but still he pointed out that something felt "off."




Rosencrantz said:


> Has Senju Hashirama ever seen Uchiha Itachi? Does he know his fighting style? Does he know what jutsu he possesses? No? So how can he possibly gauge how strong Uchiha Itachi is and match up his own strength with him then?



He probably based it on the fact that Itachi annihilated the Uchiha clan in one night, something which the almighty Senju clan wasn't able to do for decades


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## Rosencrantz (Dec 22, 2013)

Selim drained all of posting will so I'll let your punk ass have this round. And I saw that Itachi>Whole Senju clan shit. And I must say.... well done .


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## Vice (Dec 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He probably based it on the fact that Itachi annihilated the Uchiha clan in one night, something which the almighty Senju clan wasn't able to do for decades



*correction: Itachi and Obito

*second correction: watered down Uchiha and children. mostly children.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 22, 2013)

KFC nardo wins


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 22, 2013)

Vice said:


> *correction: Itachi and Obito
> 
> *second correction: watered down Uchiha and children. mostly children.



Hashirama doesn't know that Obito was a part of the coup though  

Besides, Obito did all the baby killing while Itachi killed the clan leader


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## Sadgoob (Dec 22, 2013)

Besides, Konoha entrusted Itachi alone to do it, meaning he could.. and he certainly didn't seem tired/injured after the night, despite using all of his Mangekyō jutsu as a mere child. Dat 5/5 stamina.​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 22, 2013)

Vice said:


> *correction: Itachi and Obito
> 
> *second correction: watered down Uchiha and children. mostly children.



Third correction: A handful of elite, organized Uchiha old enough to be complicit in a full-scale war.


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## Vice (Dec 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama doesn't know that Obito was a part of the coup though



He doesn't even know who Itachi is either. 



> Besides, Obito did all the baby killing while Itachi killed the clan leader



We know this is false because Itachi never kills anybody that actually deserves to die like Orochimaru or Obito, he mostly sticks to picking on children. Canon. 



Nikushimi said:


> Third correction: A handful of elite, organized Uchiha old enough to be complicit in a full-scale war.



Fourth correction: Danzo's a liar and a master manipulator and the clan was taken out in a few hours.

Fifth correction: kids are involved in wars all of the time in this manga.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 22, 2013)

Vice said:


> We know this is false because Itachi never kills anybody that actually deserves to die like Orochimaru or Obito, he mostly sticks to picking on children. Canon.


what are you arguing about anyway, everyone knows torturing Uchiha children to death and then raping their corpses is an act of paralleled heroism!

Itachi was an hero for killing them little monsters, shame we dont know if he actually raped them or not. His other actions suck though and are kinda gay


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 23, 2013)

Vice said:


> He doesn't even know who Itachi is either.


He knows him as someone who is capable of annihilating the Uchiha Clan single handedly.

From Hashirama's perspective, Itachi is the King





> We know this is false because Itachi never kills anybody that actually deserves to die like Orochimaru or Obito, he mostly sticks to picking on children. Canon.


We know this is wrong because he soloed his parents


Thats how the solo chronicles began 




> Fifth correction: kids are involved in wars all of the time in this manga.


True, child killing is no crime in Narutoverse.


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## Vice (Dec 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He knows him as someone who is capable of annihilating the Uchiha Clan single handedly.



The watered down version that even Madara couldn't give a shit about.



> From Hashirama's perspective, Itachi is the King



Hashirama is an infamous Uchiha ass-kisser. Not only that, but Itachi is Kishi's pet, everyone in the manga goes out of their way to suck his dick.

Itachi might as well be a fly to Hashirama's windshield.



> We know this is wrong because he soloed his parents
> 
> 
> Thats how the solo chronicles began



Kills his parents and babies, can't be bothered to do anything to Orochimaru or Obito to prevent a war. 

Dat hero. 



> True, child killing is no crime in Narutoverse.



During times of war, not when they're asleep in their beds in the middle of the night.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 23, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Shinobi" denotes endurance, but it _also_ denotes fighting capability. If Hashirama was specifying endurance, then he'd have said so, *but he said Itachi was a better overall shinobi and everything the shinobi profession entails.*



Hashirama didn't need to specify what exactly he was talking about cause based on what he just learned of Itachi he can only make a factual statement on one thing, and that is the endurance aspect of being a Shinobi. There is no need to specify something he knows he can't begin to touch upon.

Also, Hashirama never said the bold, he simply said Itachi is a better shinobi than him, in which sense is very clear as explained above.


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Shinobi" denotes endurance, but it _also_ denotes fighting capability.




Hashirama doesn't even know what Itachi's abilities are, so comparing their respective "fighting capability" is sort of...hard.


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## LeafShinobi (Dec 29, 2013)

Itachi wins.


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