# Spoilers Kamuiless Kakashi vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Jun 27, 2013)

Location: beach
SOM: IC
Knowledge: full
Restrictions: kamui
Distance: 20


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## trance (Jun 27, 2013)

Kakashi still has his standard Sharingan which he can predict her moves with and is quite a bit faster. However, he doesn't have anything that can beat her regeneration and if she summons Katsuyu, there's no way he can her down and with only average chakra levels, he won't outlast Tsunade.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 27, 2013)

Restrict Katsuyu. She is Kamui-level haxxed.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2013)

If headshots are the true limit to her regeneration then I give it to Kakashi. Ration is great against physical-only fighters. He has a nice speed & reflex advantage, along with Lighting Blade to help nullify the strength gap. Knowledge really kills her here. Kakashi's ridiculous tactical style of fighting is incredibly good against her own style of pure power. If Tsunade get's a hold of him, she will break him. Therefore, he will ensure that the only time he makes himself vulnerable is to deliver a kill-shot, and I believe it's fully within his capabilities to take that route.


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## tanman (Jun 27, 2013)

The above post sums up the feelings I've had about this fight for a while.
inb4 Godaime


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2013)

If he opts for range, Kakashi has access to Suitons and one long distance Raiton. _Suiryudan_, _Daibakufu_, _Daikodan_, and _Raiju Hashiri_. The problem is that trying to play keep away would prompt Katsuyu's summoning, and each of those jutsu would prove completely ineffective against the slug boss, or Tsunade herself.

On the other hand, supercharged _Zesshi Nensan_ sprays will pressure Kakashi as it will require repeated _Shunshin_ or a _Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu_ to evade. Underground is not where Kakashi wants to be against a giant that can bodyslam the ground hard enough to cause quakes simply by virtue of size, or against a woman who explodes craters through the ground.

Kakashi's true threat comes from close-quarters, which luckily happens to be the area the Hokage specializes in. Even here, Kakashi simply doesn't dish out the kind of damage needed to actually kill Tsunade with _Byakugo no Jutsu_ active, and I really question the _Raiton Kage Bunshin _actually being able to paralyze her to begin with.

Now, Kakashi is faster and the Sharingan's precognition certainly does help him evade, but Tsunade has shown that she is not _*so*_ far below him in speed that sooner or later she won't tag him or trade shots with him, especially considering she can produce shockwaves and send house-sized boulders flying making her capable of incapacitating people even if she herself doesn't hit them directly.

Adding to that, against this particular opponent Kakashi's greater speed is even less advantageous than it normally is because he'll have thousands of slugs all over the place reducing his space to freely maneuver, trying to slam into him or even spit acid on him. _Katsuyu Daibunretsu_ is practically tailored towards assisting Tsunade in dealing strikes to her foes.

Kakashi is a tricky fighter, though, and while that's a great thing to be it's also worth noting that Tsunade _is aware_ of Kakashi's cautious habits, and she may  inadvertently draw him out of hiding anyway because she is just that explosive. Not to mention Kakashi is trying to avoid _a lot_ of eyes when Katsuyu is on the field.


So the Slug Princess hits him eventually and wins, with difficulties. Kakashi needs _Kamui_ to deal with someone of the Sannin's caliber imo.


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## Mithos (Jun 27, 2013)

Without Kamui, Kakashi can't really put her down thanks to Byakugou. 

His most dangerous attacks - variations of Raikiri - require him to get close to her to work, which is the last place he wants to be thanks to her skill in close combat and incredible strength, which not only would OHKO him but considering Sakura's new feat could also send him sprawling in the air and leave him open if she strikes the ground. 

His ranged attacks would not be very effective; she should be able to dodge or have Katsuyu shield her. Katsuyu's acid is a much bigger ranged threat than any of Kakashi's jutsu. The large AoE makes it hard to evade continuously. And since Katsuyu's clones can also spit acid, dodging acid from hundreds or thousands of slugs at once would be very problematic. 

The fight ends 1 of 3 ways: Tsunade lands an attack or counter-attack when Kakashi approaches, either a direct hit or a ground fissure; Katsuyu melts him eventually; or Tsunade outlasts him. Kakashi can't really win here - Tsunade has the skill and abilities to survive and deal with everything Kakashi can dish out, but Kakashi can't overcome Byakugou or Katsuyu.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> If he opts for range, Kakashi has access to Suitons and one long distance Raiton. _Suiryudan_, _Daibakufu_, _Daikodan_, and _Raiju Hashiri_. The problem is that trying to play keep away would prompt Katsuyu's summoning, and each of those jutsu would prove completely ineffective against the slug boss, or Tsunade herself.
> 
> On the other hand, supercharged _Zesshi Nensan_ sprays will pressure Kakashi as it will require repeated _Shunshin_ or a _Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu_ to evade. Underground is not where Kakashi wants to be against a giant that can bodyslam the ground hard enough to cause quakes simply by virtue of size, or against a woman who explodes craters through the ground.
> 
> ...



This right here. Kakashi can't compete with any of the Sannin without Kamui.


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## bleakwinter (Jun 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If headshots are the true limit to her regeneration then I give it to Kakashi.



A headshot is exceedingly rare, chiefly because it's practically too hard to pull off unless the opponent is immobilized (Hidan) or the opponent is massively inferior in skill (Gato against Zabuza). Consider that Kakashi has pierced Obito with Raikiri multiple times with killing intent. None were even aimed at his head. Tsunade's arms have quickly reacted to Madara's fireballs while the other Kage stood helpless. She can easily protect her head with her arms against Raikiri. The only immobilization technique that kakashi has is Raiton kagebunshin (Which consumes half of his Chakra), and Byakugo's regeneration would quickly remedy Tsunade's paralysis. A headshot isn't feasible here.



> Ration is great against physical-only fighters. He has a nice speed & reflex advantage, along with Lighting Blade to help nullify the strength gap.



Regardless of Kakashi's speed advantage, slower opponents were still able to physically connect blows with him at least once (Kakuzu, Obito). The problem is that unlike most opponents that have connected a strike onto Kakashi, hers would end the fight immediately. 




> Knowledge really kills her here. Kakashi's ridiculous tactical style of fighting is incredibly good against her own style of pure power. If Tsunade get's a hold of him, she will break him. Therefore, he will ensure that the only time he makes himself vulnerable is to deliver a kill-shot, and I believe it's fully within his capabilities to take that rout.



With the above statements on Kakashi's inability to score a headshot, how would he kill her? Byakugo on its own is problematic enough. Coupling that along with Katsuyu's feat of revitalizing near dead Gokage back to full health in mere moments (Once Tsunade had regained enough Chakra), makes it near impossible for him to kill Tsunade. While Katsuyu is doing so, her other parts can even protect Tsunade from outside harm similar to when she threatened Orochimaru with her acid.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> A headshot is exceedingly rare, chiefly because it's practically too hard to pull off unless the opponent is immobilized (Hidan) or the opponent is massively inferior in skill (Gato against Zabuza). Consider that Kakashi has pierced Obito with Raikiri multiple times with killing intent. None were even aimed at his head. Tsunade's arms have quickly reacted to Madara's fireballs while the other Kage stood helpless. She can easily protect her head with her arms against Raikiri. The only immobilization technique that kakashi has is Raiton kagebunshin (Which consumes half of his Chakra), and Byakugo's regeneration would quickly remedy Tsunade's paralysis. A headshot isn't feasible here.




There isn't anything special about a headshot. It's the same thing as a punch in the face, except Kakashi would have to have Raikiri activated (which is cake at this point).

Regeneration doesn't heal paralysis to my knowledge, but there's also Sharingan Genjutsu. It's all about creating an opening, and capitalizing on it. Kakashi supposedly has one of the largest Jutsu arsenals to date, so it comes down to whether or not you believe Tsunade's defense is too strong to let up. I, personally, do not. His only goal is to land a punch in the face on a slower opponent with no defense but her limbs, and this is a guy with Shikamaru-level intelligence here.





> Regardless of Kakashi's speed advantage, slower opponents were still able to physically connect blows with him at least once (Kakuzu, Obito). The problem is that unlike most opponents that have connected a strike onto Kakashi, hers would end the fight immediately.




Of course. The thing is, Kakashi knows he can't get hit. He's going to be careful. He can also try utilizing Raikiri as a blade and sever her limbs, though I'm not sure how effective that would be.





> With the above statements on Kakashi's inability to score a headshot, how would he kill her? Byakugo on its own is problematic enough. Coupling that along with Katsuyu's feat of revitalizing near dead Gokage back to full health in mere moments (Once Tsunade had regained enough Chakra), makes it near impossible for him to kill Tsunade. While Katsuyu is doing so, her other parts can even protect Tsunade from outside harm similar to when she threatened Orochimaru with her acid.




Honestly under an IC mindset she might not summon the slug. She didn't against Madara, so I don't believe she tends to do so in combat....unless others are summoning.

All Katsuyu does is add more Regen. So I stick to my original assessment: It depends on how she takes a head-shot.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There isn't anything special about a headshot. It's the same thing as a punch in the face, except Kakashi would have to have Raikiri activated (which is cake at this point).
> 
> Regeneration doesn't heal paralysis to my knowledge, but there's also Sharingan Genjutsu. It's all about creating an opening, and capitalizing on it. Kakashi supposedly has one of the largest Jutsu arsenals to date, so it comes down to whether or not you believe Tsunade's defense is too strong to let up. I, personally, do not. His only goal is to land a punch in the face on a slower opponent with no defense but her limbs, and this is a guy with Shikamaru-level intelligence here.
> 
> ...



Tsunade had a Sussano sword impaled through her entire mid section. Through all of her organs and her spine. Which would normally have killed and paralyzed her instantly. But the problem is, were dealing with Tsunade. She's not exactly normal. I don't even see a lighting blade to the face killing her . However, Kakashi wouldn't be able to hit her anyways . Your underestimating the leafs Hokage heavily. All she has to do is literally complete a blocking formation, and his technique is confirmed useless. Now add her slug into this equation. It acts as a giant diversion, as well as Kakashi not being able to actually kill it. If I recall, for almost all of Kakashi'd battles, he's been tagged atleast once. Even against slower people like Kakuzu and Zabuza. So Tsunade  should have absolutely no problem doing so. Which will ultimately end Kakashi.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Honestly under an IC mindset she might not summon the slug. She didn't against Madara, so I don't believe she tends to do so in combat....unless others are summoning.



I wouldn't be too sure.

Against Orochimaru and Kabuto she didn't summon sooner because she had homophobia. As soon as she got over said homophobia she began the summoning, and that was at a point where she thought Kabuto was incapacitated by the _Rasengan_ (which would have meant no summon for armless Orochi, and the other giant snake had already been dealt with). She was the one to initiate the summoning phase of the fight in the first place.

It's true she didn't summon against Madara, but think about that. Would Katsuyu have been a good idea against him? Probably not; why? Because Tsunade already had healing covered, _Zesshi Nensan_ wouldn't be any more effective in getting past Susano'o than Mei, and popping a gargantuan slug when your enemy is erupting forests all over the field would only make it _more difficult to dodge_. Heck, she probably figured Katsuyu could have been picked up and thrown off of the field.

If it's within her best interest to summon Katsuyu, then she will most likely summon Katsuyu. I doubt she would become known as the Slug Princess for a summon she doesn't bring out IC.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 27, 2013)

Tsunade has Katsuyu split and swarm the battlefield to restrict Kakashi's movement.

Then she pulverizes the shit out of him.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 27, 2013)

Kakashi uses genjutsu at match start, goes underground and makes Tsunade fight Katsuyu.


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## joshhookway (Jun 27, 2013)

You guys realize that Kakashi is near a beach right?

Kakashi uses suiton to kill Katsuya via osmosis.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 27, 2013)

^
Oh god xD


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## Rocky (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I wouldn't be too sure.
> It's true she didn't summon against Madara, but think about that. Would Katsuyu have been a good idea against him? Probably not; why? Because Tsunade already had healing covered, _Zesshi Nensan_ wouldn't be any more effective in getting past Susano'o than Mei, and popping a gargantuan slug when your enemy is erupting forests all over the field would only make it _more difficult to dodge_. Heck, she probably figured Katsuyu could have been picked up and thrown off of the field.




Actually, Katsuyu's splitting ability would've made Tsunade's job easier. The only reason that a bring up the point is that in her one major battle at full power, she didn't summon the slug. The whole time I was like " It's just as strong as you Tsunade summon the fucking slug" but no. No. She didn't do it.



> If it's within her best interest to summon Katsuyu, then she will most likely summon Katsuyu. I doubt she would become known as the Slug Princess for a summon she doesn't bring out IC.




I do agree with this however. If she wants to she'll summon it, and she had to get her title from somewhere.


*EDIT: *OP solo'd Katsuyu.


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## Shizune (Jun 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If headshots are the true limit to her regeneration then I give it to Kakashi.



This is the key question that Kakashi vs Tsunade matches will always beg.

Here's the thing: for all Kakashi's tactical ingenuity and as varied as his arsenal may be, Tsunade can bulldoze through the majority of what he has. And with his history of tiring easily, wasting time could be his downfall here. Tsunade is going to perform particularly well against opponents who need to do a lot of work or take a serious toll on themselves to keep pace with her, because she can and will outlast them - and one misstep against her means death. 

I'm totally confident in Kakashi's ability to land at least on raikiri in this fight, and if she can't regenerate the headshot, Tsunade loses. But if she can, she wins every time.

Because it comes down to a lack of information, I'm inconclusive on this matchup.


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## Rosencrantz (Jun 28, 2013)

Need Katsuya restricted to make this more competitive. Restricted at least to maybe just a couple small ones. Tsunade can knock away any dotons, suitons, and hell probably the raikiri wolf as well. Dog summons can wrecked too. Most of Kakashi's jutsu will end up just wasting his chakra cause Tsunade can knock them away effortlessly.

Tsunade has the advantage in taijutsu skill but Kakashi has sharingan prediction to help balance it out. He has a speed advantage but the difference is not so significant that it will really play a factor. Kakashi also can no longer block in a taijutsu battle and has to dodge everything. This makes counterattacking more difficult and prolonged taijutsu virtual suicide. Kakashi's best bet is to use his bunshins to create an opening and wreck with raikiri. After seeing the type of damage Tsunade can take even before healing, Tsunade can afford to tank a raikiri and use the opening to knock Kakashi away before healing with genesis rebirth. If Kakashi can even still stand, he will be finished by the next attack. 

Tsunade always came off as a bad match up for Kakashi especially with his habit of stabbing with Raikiri. Tsunade is not dying instantly, and she can just counterattack and finish Kakashi. Now if it is bunshin, then Tsunade will have to heal but Kakashi will have wasted a lot of chakra just for Tsunade to heal from it. Byakugou just seals Kakashi's fate. It means that nothing he can do will kill her outside of a decapitating Raikiri something I am sure Tsunade already knows would do the job (we think). Tsunade's veteran experience, multiple wars, being Hokage, etc all tell me she be able to keep up with Kakashi tactically. She was able to keep up with Kabuto tactically someone who was compared to Kakashi on multiple occasions. She should be fine there. Can't see Kakashi winning here. Katsuya makes it worse. Acid from multiple directions can result in him getting lead into a trap.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 28, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Restrict Katsuyu. She is Kamui-level haxxed.



-Great Waterfall Vortex
-Saltwater_Osmosis


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## Ghost (Jun 28, 2013)

Kakashi Raikiri headshots. Tsunade doesn't have Shinra Tensei to prevent that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 28, 2013)

I don't see what the last chapter would change about this match.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Actually, Katsuyu's splitting ability would've made Tsunade's job easier. The only reason that a bring up the point is that in her one major battle at full power, she didn't summon the slug. The whole time I was like " It's just as strong as you Tsunade summon the fucking slug" but no. No. She didn't do it.



Cost vs. convenience: I'm pretty sure the amount of chakra required to summon is dependent upon the size (strength?) of the summon, and its massive so that's quite a bit of chakra going there.Tsunade can summon a smaller Katsuyu, but its still several dozen meters long and too big to just split five times and fit on everyone's shoulder, and they can't get sucked into a division to heal because the Mokuton would just pick the slug itself up and send it flying if its trying to shield them.

Considering that the Gokage kept rejoining each other and keeping close at almost every at every chance they got (after arrival, after lava blanket, after lightened V2, after golem attempt, after pollen removing, after ribcage busting, etc.; reasonable considering it would not be good to split up against someone who can still attack all of you at once no matter your direction), I don't think summoning the slug would make Tsunade's job much easier. 

So were she to spend the extra chakra to summon it, the rest of the slug would be off lying somewhere susceptible to Mokuton rape while all she's managed to really do for herself is remove the inconvenience of having to take a couple steps? It really doesn't seem like a smart idea to me; if anything it'd be a waste of chakra since anything she'd do with the slug she was already doing just fine without it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 But yeah I wanted to see Katsuyu as well. And when Madara injured everyone I was like "Oh he remembered she can summon". Kishi. . . .


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## Magicbullet (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Against Orochimaru and Kabuto she didn't summon sooner because she had *homophobia*.




on topic: Tsunade crushes him once she actually catches him. Many a log will have died in the process.


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## Bonly (Jun 28, 2013)

As always in these Kamui-less Kakashi vs Tsunade threads, my opinion is basically always the same. If Kakashi can only win if he lands a headshot or outlast Tsunade(LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL) and finish her off. The latter isn't likely to happen so that leaves Kakashi with the former. As always I find that with his speed,reflexes,cunning skills, Raiton,ect. Kakashi can land said head shot.


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## narut0ninjafan (Jun 28, 2013)

If a headshot is all it takes to kill Tsunade I doubt Kishi would hype up her regeneration so much. Plus it's not hard to block headshots, which is why most ninjas aim for the body. Case in example - Kakashi's Raikiri to the head being dodged by Pain moving his head slightly.

Paralysis, I question whether it would work - Tsunade has extreme resilience and can move, fight and summon Katsuyu in cases where she should be paralysed. If it did work, it's not going to last long (his Raiton bunshin doesn't have any feats of paralysing for a long time) and may not last long enough for the real Kakashi to close the distance and hit her. That is assuming he can even kill her. Everything else in his arsenal is useless to Byakugou.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 28, 2013)

a headshot is all thats needed to kill any ninja, going a step beyond decapitation. 

This includes tsunade...it would even shut up hidan for once


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## joshhookway (Jun 29, 2013)

Tsunade's regen is overrated. I doubt she regenerate from a decapitated head.

I bet if Hidan didn't get his head off, people would put him on god tier saying that Hidan will be Deadshot.


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## tanman (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Against Orochimaru and Kabuto she didn't summon sooner because she had homophobia.



Know that, no matter how intelligent what you say is, you will never live this down. I will always bring up Tsunade's homophobia. You could solve the energy crisis, and it wouldn't matter. As you accept the Nobel Prize, you'll see me in the audience with a banner saying "derp." Just for flubbing a single letter.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

You guys know what I meant!


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## joshhookway (Jun 30, 2013)

Tsunade's homophobia didn't affect her fighting skills much. The fact is that Kabuto was beating Tsunade. Tsunade had killing intent in that fight too. Tsunade is below average fighter intelligent and won't summon Katsuya anyways, e.g. against Madara and Kabuto.


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## bleakwinter (Jun 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There isn't anything special about a headshot. It's the same thing as a punch in the face, except Kakashi would have to have Raikiri activated (which is cake at this point).



The head is a smaller mass and easily protected, so it is intrinsically harder to land a clean blow on than let's say, the torso. It isn't just a punch to the face that Kakashi would require, but rather a good clean thrust through her brain, in which case she can move her arms to protect herself as her arm reflexes have extremely good reaction feats (Effortlessly swatting away fireballs that the other Kage could barely react to). Kakashi has only attempted one Raikiri headshot in the entire manga that I'm aware of (1). In that case, his opponent was physically restraint and had no discernible routes for escape. A head shot is not something that can be casually performed on a fully ambulatory and attentive foe. 



> Regeneration doesn't heal paralysis to my knowledge,



The unaided  body on its own will eventually recover from electrical paralysis. Regeneration simply speeds up the body's recovery process. All Byakugo would be doing in this case is simply accelerating a process that the body already performs on its own. 



> but there's also Sharingan Genjutsu.



Out of all the occular Genjutsu users in the manga, Kakashi has amongst the poorest feats. He cannot paralyze people with his Genjutsu, only create temporary illusions which was really only effective on Part I Sakura. To that regard, Tsunade will not be caught in it under full knowledge. Placing things into perspective, the only Kage that was even caught by Madara's genjutsu was Ei, only because he let his guard down. Even then, Madara had to physically grab Ei and glare directly into eyes for it to work. Katsuyu's presence would also make Genjutsu meaningless. 



> It's all about creating an opening, and capitalizing on it. Kakashi supposedly has one of the largest Jutsu arsenals to date, so it comes down to whether or not you believe Tsunade's defense is too strong to let up. I, personally, do not. His only goal is to land a punch in the face on a slower opponent with no defense but her limbs, and this is a guy with Shikamaru-level intelligence here.



The latter statement seems true in theory, but it becomes extremely inconsistent in practice when I can very well give you countless examples of Kakashi fighting slower opponents with no other defenses and still not being able to land or even attempt a head shot against them. Tsunade's only defense may be her limbs, but that doesn't make it any more benefical for Kakashi considering her limbs can react to fireballs that the other Kage were helpless to counter.

On the other hand, Tsunade's only goal is to land a punch anywhere on Kakashi's body. It doesn't matter if she's physically slower. Obito, Zabuza, and Kakuzu were all opponents who were physically slower than Kakashi, yet were able to at least physically strike him once in Taijutsu. 




> Of course. The thing is, Kakashi knows he can't get hit. He's going to be careful. He can also try utilizing Raikiri as a blade and sever her limbs, though I'm not sure how effective that would be.



Unfortunately it likely wouldn't be effective at all. Multiple Madara clones wielding blades could only achieve impalement on Tsunade at best. It subsequently isn't hard to envision why Kakashi wouldn't be able to sever her limbs, given that he is only one individual while several entities failed to do so. 




> Honestly under an IC mindset she might not summon the slug. She didn't against Madara, so I don't believe she tends to do so in combat....unless others are summoning.



Under an IC mindset, Kakashi wouldn't go for a head shot either, because he's only attempted it only once in the entire manga against an opponent who was physically-restrained at that. However, I'm certain you would turn around and claim that Kakashi will attempt a headshot regardless of this fact since he has full knowledge and thus knows decapitation is the key to stopping her regeneration. The same would apply here. Tsunade normally doesn't employ Katsuyu in combat, but she knows that Kakashi's arsenal is mostly slicing attacks and that he uses Genjutsu. She's knows that attacks such as Raikiri chain and Raikiri slash have the potential to dismember her in ways that prompted her to summon Katsuyu following Madara's aftermath in the first place.


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## Santoryu (Jun 30, 2013)

hmm...

some dude who is capable of keeping up with version 2 jinjuriki in an exhausted state, and more recently defeated akatsuki's leader vs a kage who is not even considered the best out of the 5 current kage....


right.......

the day tsunade's reactions and speed are significantly above that of the v2 jins and obito, she'll have a chance against her superior opponent. how does she deal with sharingan genjutsu? recent chapters  and common sense would suggest that this match should not be up for debate.


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## αce (Jun 30, 2013)

> Tsunade's homophobia didn't affect her fighting skills much.



Not gonna lie, I laughed.


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## Santoryu (Jun 30, 2013)

even this lass is stronger than tsunade: 


kakashi pimp slaps


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## bleakwinter (Jun 30, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> hmm...
> 
> some dude who is capable of keeping up with version 2 jinjuriki in an exhausted state, and more recently defeated akatsuki's leader vs a kage who is not even considered the best out of the 5 current kage....



The version 2 Jinchuuriki were hardly using any of their abilities and were mostly resorting to physical attacks which weren't portrayed to be impressively fast. The fact that he "kept up with them" is hardly impressive, considering they had a clear upperhand on him. 




> the day tsunade's reactions and speed are significantly above that of the v2 jins and obito, she'll have a chance against her superior opponent.


That's very poor transitive logic. By that logic, Kakuzu, Obito, and Zabuza should have all had zero chance against Kakashi considering their speed and reflexes were inferior to his at the time of the battle. On quite the contrary, all of those opponents were able to connect at least one blow to Kakashi in Taijutsu, which is all Tsunade would need to secure her victory.



> how does she deal with sharingan genjutsu?


Kakashi has the poorest Genjutsu feats of any Sharingan users. He can only create illusions with them, not paralyze. To date, the only person who had fallen for his Genjutsu was Part I Sakura. Tsunade also has Katsuyu handy, who can easily break her out of Genjutsu.



> recent chapters and common sense would suggest that this match should not be up for debate.



Recent chapters haven't shown Kakashi exhibiting any new abilities that we didn't already know he had. As far as common sense, how can it be common sense if the overwhelming majority of people believe that Tsunade would win (Judging by the poll)? Raikiri and its associated variants constitute the bulk of Kakashi offenses, and we know for a fact that Byakugo can heal all injuries that they are capable of inflicting. The only obvious exception is decapitation through a head shot. To that regard, Tsunade's arm reflexes have already demonstrated themselves to be swift when she knocked away all the fireballs that the other Kage couldn't react to. Ignoring the fact that it isn't IC or even feasible to for Kakashi to headshot a foe who isn't tied down, she can easily guard her head with her arms.


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## Kaiser (Jun 30, 2013)

Kakashi would win. He outclasses Tsunade in every category besides strength and resilience, but raikiri's attacking speed and piercing power is something Tsunade would have difficulties to handle


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## ImSerious (Jun 30, 2013)

kakashi ends it with a raikiri kunai to the brain. he was outclassing obito in cqc, Tsunade will be overwhelmed by his superior speed and skill.


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## Kaiser (Jun 30, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> If you believe that then I seriously question why you would make the thread in the first place. . .


I made the thread?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2013)

Blake said:


> I made the thread?



 Got Tsu vs Dei confused with this one somehow cuz I looked back in it to see what I said. Wow. . .

I'm sorry.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> hmm...
> 
> some dude who is capable of keeping up with version 2 jinjuriki in an exhausted state, and more recently defeated akatsuki's leader vs a kage who is not even considered the best out of the 5 current kage....
> 
> ...



In an exhausted state? Stop trying to make Kakashi look better than he is. And seriously beat Akatsuki's leader? You do realize Kakashi's use of Kamui, the venue of the battle, and refusing to use the rinnengan is what made Obito lose right? Take away Kamui from Obito and Elite Jounins could give Obito a run for his money in a 1 on 1. Tsunade would murk him. Such logic is fundamentally flawed.

One is Hokage, and one is a Hokage candidate. This match will ALWAYS be up for debate. Reaction and speed does not determine the outcome for every battle. That is ridiculous to base a fight off of such and shows such a poor understanding of battles that your credibility flew right out the window. Sasuke should have murked Naruto on the rooftop, KCM Naruto should have killed Sandaime Raikage, Hidan should have died to Asuma, Kakuzu should have lost to Kakashi, etc, etc. The match is clearly competitive. Tsunade has superior taijutsu to counteract his sharingan prediction. Kakashi is faster but only a tier faster so he can still get hit. Kakashi can not block attacks and can only dodge which limits his taijutsu skill and his close quarters combat as a whole. Tsunade can knock away any doton or suiton he uses. He could use a Kage Bunshin feint. Tsunade can punch the Kage Bunshin and it should fly away so if it is a raiton Kage Bunshin it will not stun her because it will be knocked away. Now if she fought with a blade and stabbed it then it would stun her like Asura but she does not fight like that so she is fine. She has the experience of many wars and battles which can help her deal with Kakashi's tactics. Both have 5 tier intelligence. She can tank a raikiri through the gut ala Haku and finish him off with a punch with byakugou active or heal with genesis rebirth after. Only way he might be able to finish her is with a raikiri to the head but if it is her true weak spot, she will just defend that point. Oh and his sharingan genjutsu has never been shown to be particularly impressive. She could very well break out or have Katsuya break her out.

Tsunade honestly does not need Katsuya here but she basically guarantees victory. Anyone that has been in an actual fight knows exactly how hard it is to not get hit once or have to block even once. Hell it is possible for someone to catch your kick or punch in a fight. If any of these things happens, Kakashi loses. Bunshin feint and raikiri to the head is his only shot in this. Katsuya negates any chance of that happening though.


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## joshhookway (Jul 1, 2013)

Here are all of Tsunade's arsenal:

Physical Punches: Kakashi with Sharingan eyes and natural speed should be able to maneuver through easily. Tsunade couldn't even hit part 1 Kabuto. Tsunade is not landing anything. 

Regeneration: Kakashi has knowledge and will aim for a headshot. Tsunade is not regenerating from that.

Katsuya: Kakashi kills it with Suiton.


Tsunade should get destroyed by Kakashi.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

Tsunade actually did hit part 1 Kabuto. She was even rusty and tired during that fight. Not a good argument.

Kakashi knows about byakugou? Genesis rebirth? Scans please. And Tsunade can dodge. If she knows her one weak point is the head, she can protect it pretty easily. 

Katsuya dies to a suiton? Didn't she survive Chou Shinra Tensei with virtually no injuries?


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## Luftwaffles (Jul 1, 2013)

Kakashi can just bury Tsunade underground and decapitate her. Or catch her in a genjutsu BEFORE she summons Katsuyu.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

^^He did that to a beginning of part 1 Sasuke. Come on now. Can people answer seriously?


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## narut0ninjafan (Jul 1, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> ^^He did that to a beginning of part 1 Sasuke. Come on now. Can people answer seriously?



This so much. It really doesn't help Kakashi's case when people have to resort to that. It's like saying Tsunade wins with a finger flick GG. 

Headshots have never been stated or implied as Byakugou's limit, but like many others have said, IF it is a weakness, it can be defended easily, by blocking, or moving away (like Deva Path did to Kakashi's first headshot attempt on him).

Don't bother with joshhookway by the way, he clearly is just an obnoxious, obsessed, Tsunade hating troll.

@joshhookway by the way, why do you make so many threads about Tsunade if you think she definitely loses every match? Why do you feel the need to find out what other people think of the match? That seems pretty insecure and uncertain to me, so it baffles me how despite that you still adamantly try to claim Tsunade loses even when people prove you wrong and back it up, whereas, literally your only argument is to use part I feats.


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## Luftwaffles (Jul 1, 2013)

How does Tsunade counter genjutsu + quick Raikiri to the heart BEFORE the Byakugo activates?


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## bleakwinter (Jul 1, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> How does Tsunade counter genjutsu + quick Raikiri to the heart BEFORE the Byakugo activates?



Tsunade claimed that she (nor her students) wouldn't actually enter combat  without the Byakugo (She certainly would stick true to this, given that she ha sknowledge on who she's fighting). On the other hand, Kakashi has never opened a fight with Genjutsu. In fact the only one whose ever been fooled by his Genjutsu was part I Sakura. Kakashi has the poorest feats out of any Sharingan user with regards to Genjutsu prowess.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> How does Tsunade counter genjutsu + quick Raikiri to the heart BEFORE the Byakugo activates?



Is Kakashi good enough to do that? Can she not break out? IC wise, will he use it before she can get a mini katsuya on herself or before she activates Byakugo? In a fight, he has only used it against Zabuza. I doubt he actively chooses to use it.


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## joshhookway (Jul 1, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Tsunade actually did hit part 1 Kabuto. She was even rusty and tired during that fight. Not a good argument.
> 
> Kakashi knows about byakugou? Genesis rebirth? Scans please. And Tsunade can dodge. If she knows her one weak point is the head, she can protect it pretty easily.
> 
> Katsuya dies to a suiton? Didn't she survive Chou Shinra Tensei with virtually no injuries?



no scans, because kakashi has full knowledge.

Katsuya dies to a suiton because they are near a beach and Katsuya dies via osmosis.


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## Mithos (Jul 2, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> How does Tsunade counter genjutsu + quick Raikiri to the heart BEFORE the Byakugo activates?



Kakashi doesn't have the skill in genjutsu to hold Tsunade, who is not only extremely intelligent (5 in the DB), has loads of experience, but is one of the most skilled ninjas at chakra control. Kakashi doesn't usually fight with genjutsu against high level opponents.


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## Kaiser (Jul 2, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Tsunade claimed that she (nor her students) wouldn't actually enter combat  without the Byakugo (She certainly would stick true to this, given that she ha sknowledge on who she's fighting). On the other hand, Kakashi has never opened a fight with Genjutsu. In fact the only one whose ever been fooled by his Genjutsu was part I Sakura. Kakashi has the poorest feats out of any Sharingan user with regards to Genjutsu prowess.


You mean part1 Sakura, Zabuza, Gai(off-panel) and Anbus. But what he used against Sakura wasn't a Sharingan genjutsu though


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## Veracity (Jul 2, 2013)

Blake said:


> You mean part1 Sakura, Zabuza, Gai(off-panel) and Anbus. But what he used against Sakura wasn't a Sharingan genjutsu though



So basically no one Kage level? So basically no one with exceptional chakra control? Kakashi isn't catching shit in Genjustu, let alone a Sannin.


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## Kaiser (Jul 2, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> So basically no one Kage level? So basically no one with exceptional chakra control? Kakashi isn't catching shit in Genjustu, let alone a Sannin.


Since when is Gai not a Kage level ninja? Where is the rule that Kage level makes you more immune to genjutsu? We talk about a guy who just evenly matched a Perfect Jinchuriki controller in genjutsu


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2013)

I really doubt Gai was Kage level in Part 1. . .

Part 2 is a different story altogether, though.


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## Veracity (Jul 2, 2013)

Blake said:


> Since when is Gai not a Kage level ninja? Where is the rule that Kage level makes you more immune to genjutsu? We talk about a guy who just evenly matched a Perfect Jinchuriki controller in genjutsu



First of off, Gai wasn't even Kage level in part 1. & trapping him in Genjustu off panel isn't even valid. Ill like a scan for it anyway. Being Kage lvl, pretty much means your skilled in every level. Meaning your less likely to get caught in a Genjustu. You think Hiruzen would get caught in low level Genjustu? Lol no. & everything that just happened with Obito is irrelevant at this point. Kishi threw a of his reputation out the window, as soon as he started getting Baby Shaked by Kakashi. Obito wasn't even thinking in that entire battle.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 2, 2013)

Kakashi really doesn't have anything to put Tsunade down without Kamui (and Tsunade has a counter to that via Katsuyu). She can literally tank and regenerate all of his attacks, let herself get stabbed, grab Kakashi's wrist and then pound away at him without him being able to escape since her physical strength is far greater than his.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jul 2, 2013)

With Knowledge Kakashi can win. 
Raikiri turns his hand into spear and I'm pretty sure almost blade like but it's most effective with a thrust motion. We've seen Kakahi cut Zabuza's hand off during the war arc already he can do the same to Tsunade with his Sharingan and superior reflexes.

His Raikiri kunai will take Tsunade's face off, and with knowledge and no Kamui this and a Raikiri transmission/chain link can dismember her. 

Including the above ninjutsu he can use to kill Tsunade he has lighting clones, nin dogs, and mole Jutsu and lighting wolf can help him capitalize a kill shot.

Also as memtioned Taunade has never made an offence using Katsyuu except for the Sannin fight which it was appropriate for. Taking the battle close-mid range Kakashi still raikiri's and retreats.

Only W/O Knowledge and no Kamui can Tsunade beat Kakashi.


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## bleakwinter (Jul 2, 2013)

Blake said:


> You mean part1 Sakura, Zabuza, Gai(off-panel) and Anbus.



Can you show me a scan of Kakashi using genjutsu on Gai and Anbu? The problem here is that a person can break out of Genjutsu on their own by simply having good Chakra control (1) (Genjutsu: Kai is only needed when that method fails to work). With that said, why would Tsunade not be able to stop her own Chakra flow to cancel kakashi's Genjutsu, given Tsunade has amongst the most precise Chakra control in the entire manga while Kakashi has some of the poorest genjutsu feats in the entire manga? It simply doesn't add up when you claim that Kakashi's subpar Genjutsu would afflict Tsunade.



> But what he used against Sakura wasn't a Sharingan genjutsu though



I never claimed that it was.


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## Kaiser (Jul 2, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Can you show me a scan of Kakashi using genjutsu on Gai and Anbu? The problem here is that a person can break out of Genjutsu on their own by simply having good Chakra control (1) (Genjutsu: Kai is only needed when that method fails to work). With that said, why would Tsunade not be able to stop her own Chakra flow to cancel kakashi's Genjutsu, given Tsunade has amongst the most precise Chakra control in the entire manga while Kakashi has some of the poorest genjutsu feats in the entire manga? It simply doesn't add up when you claim that Kakashi's subpar Genjutsu would afflict Tsunade.


Gai used to avoid eye contact while fighting Kakashi. He needed to do so in order to beat Kakashi. He said it himself: (1)
Concerning Anbus, here is the chapter: (1)

Zabuza also decided to avoid eye contact during the second meeting with Kakashi because he was caught by one during the first one: (1)
That means he feared his genjutsu: (1)
(1) 

Lately we saw him able to match a Perfect Jinchuriki controller in genjutsu, so i'm not sure why you think his genjutsu level are supbar when it's showed to be far from the case in the manga. He doesn't use it very often since he prefers ninjutsu. Doesn't mean he isn't skilfull in it

I never said genjutsu would be a deciding factor though. I only wanted to make things clear


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2013)

Somewhat unrelated- considering what Obito was making the paths do: was Yagura _really_ a perfect Jinchuriki? Or was it just Obito the entire time and because nobody knew about it they thought it was Yagura?

My questioning this is mostly because this "perfect Jinchuriki" got hardly any attention for being such and was mostly only brought up as having been controlled by someone. . .someone who happens to be able to make Jinchurikis and Bijuus do things.


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## joshhookway (Jul 2, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi really doesn't have anything to put Tsunade down without Kamui (and Tsunade has a counter to that via Katsuyu). She can literally tank and regenerate all of his attacks, let herself get stabbed,* grab Kakashi's wrist and then pound away at him* without him being able to escape since her physical strength is far greater than his.



That's nice, but I'm sure she could do that to Kakashi when she couldn't even touch Part 1 Kabuto, who is much slower.


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## bleakwinter (Jul 2, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> That's nice, but I'm sure she could do that to Kakashi when she couldn't even touch Part 1 Kabuto, who is much slower.



Why do you insist on using part I Tsunade's feats as ammunition? Like every other character in the manga, she's progressed and gotten better since then. Surely you don't believe current Tsunade is identical to part I Tsunade in terms of ability.


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## Mithos (Jul 3, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Why do you insist on using part I Tsunade's feats as ammunition? Like every other character in the manga, she's progressed and gotten better since then. Surely you don't believe current Tsunade is identical to part I Tsunade in terms of ability.



Besides that, his claim is blatantly false since she did hit him multiple times.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 3, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> That's nice, but I'm sure she could do that to Kakashi when she couldn't even touch Part 1 Kabuto, who is much slower.



She did hit Kabuto. She hit someone faster as well in Orochimaru. She also was tired and rusty. Notice how she chased them until Kabuto and herself were tired but Kabuto took a soldier pill so she was still tired and he regained his stamina. So now her skill and speed is lowered cause of exhaustion and her skill is further lowered from rustiness. While Kabuto is fine. Kabuto was also a Kakashi level fighter. So Tsunade without using Katsuya, Genesis Rebirth, or Byakugou while rusty and exhausted was able to fight a Kakashi level combatant to a standstill and he was forced to use her hemophobia against her to beat her implying she very well would have won that battle (his nerves were scrambled so she may have won with the next hit).

That just made Tsunade look extremely good. That's like saying Naruto in base mode while low on chakra and had not fought for a couple years (tactics and jutsu usage suffers) while using only a couple of Kage Bunshins fought to a draw with an Elite Jounin level shinobi and might have won had it not been for *insert plot device*. 

That doesn't help your argument. It makes Tsunade look better.


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## arokh (Aug 3, 2013)

Kakashi can easily read her movements and chop her head off with a raikiri in about 3-4 seconds. Good luck healing that Tsunade. She is the weakest of the sannin obviously.


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