# Calling the bluff: Is '21' racist?



## Sean Connery (Mar 29, 2008)

you gotta be kidding me


GUYS REALLY WATCH THIS ONE!!SHIPPUDEN CLIPS MOSTLY.



> My friend Ginny was walking around New York's Chinatown the other day, where she stumbled upon a few posters calling 21, released today in theaters, racist. Why? Because the movie is based on a true story about sly MIT students who use their card-counting skills ? and, as it happens, non-white profile ? to swindle casino authorities out of millions of dollars. In a stroke of magic, Hollywood has these Asian students resurfacing as box office-friendly leads Jim Sturgess and Kate Bosworth (pictured), whose undeniable star quality is Sony's way of hedging its bet.
> 
> Having watched the film, I was a bit taken aback. But then I realized that a lack of presence is just as offensive as an overtly stereotypical one, as the near-400 members of this Facebook group cry. "Tell Hollywood that it's okay to portray Asian-American men in lead roles as three-dimensional characters with personalities, feelings, and a sense of humor. You know. Regular people. Is that too much to ask for?"
> 
> ...


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## tryagain (Mar 29, 2008)

yeah, hollywood is responsible for most of our racial profiling


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## Distracted (Mar 29, 2008)

Or you know... the people who auditioned and did the best or had the best agents happened to be white.

Cause you know... not being racist means that sometimes white people get things as well 

Could the white people have gotten it because of racism? Well... maybe to be honest.

It's possible that was what lead to it... but that's a rather strange assumption to make.


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## benstevens19 (Mar 29, 2008)

no, they didnt consider asians in the auditions. but i dont know if its rascist. they made this movie for whites so they have white lead characters.


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## Sean Connery (Mar 29, 2008)

god I am so sick of the race card crap, thank you Al Sharpton


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## illusion (Mar 29, 2008)

Wow, I didn't know the people the movie was based on were Asian. I don't think the studio is racist, they're all about money and the numbers don't lie.

Still I think I'd be a little pissed if they made a story on my life and they casted a white guy in my place or a black guy. I'd be like what the fuck, atleast get someone who looks like me (I'm Samoan), so I'd want the Rock.


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## Sean Connery (Mar 29, 2008)

for god sake, it's a freaking a movie, these assholes need to get over it


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## illusion (Mar 29, 2008)

Sean Connery said:


> for god sake, it's a freaking a movie, these assholes need to get over it



It's a movie supposedly based on Asians, but the only two Asians in it are bumbling idiots? I can see why some are a little pissed, I honestly don't care, but I can just see where they're coming from though.


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## Koi (Mar 29, 2008)

I hate the fucking race card, man. (Although, sometimes I whip it out just for fun, to see people trip over themselves, heh.  I'm half Cuban and don't look it, at all.  Heh.  Other than that, fuck the face card.)


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## Dirty Harry (Mar 29, 2008)

The way I see it, they were just aiming for the most lucrative outcome in the box-office. I think political correctness is simply making a big deal out of nothing.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 29, 2008)

Political correctness is meanignless if it means you will get more profit. Quite frankly, you'll get a lot more Americans watching white people do that then if it were Asians. And what they lose in asians not going to watch it, they'd make up in more white people watching it.


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## Snow (Mar 29, 2008)

Yeah, they portrayed them with intelligence.

Those assholes.


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## Emery (Mar 30, 2008)

There were two asians in the main cast.  How's it racist?


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## Buskuv (Mar 30, 2008)

Because everything white people do is racist.

Isn't it obvious?

Why, this very comment is racist!


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## Sean Connery (Mar 30, 2008)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> Because everything white people do is racist.
> 
> Isn't it obvious?
> 
> Why, this very comment is racist!



times I hate society


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## benstevens19 (Mar 31, 2008)

Sean Connery said:


> god I am so sick of the race card crap, thank you Al Sharpton



you can be as blind to it as you wont, rascism still exists you know that right. but now a days most rascists wont say a word. rascism exists in the heart of millions even though they are unwilling to reveal it. either way i hope this doesnt fragile your sweet sheltered white suburban life.


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## Sean Connery (Mar 31, 2008)

benstevens19 said:


> you can be as blind to it as you wont, rascism still exists you know that right. but now a days most rascists wont say a word. rascism exists in the heart of millions even though they are unwilling to reveal it. either way i hope this doesnt fragile your sweet sheltered white suburban life.



can I buy some pot from you


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## Niabingi (Mar 31, 2008)

I don't get why people are failing to see what caused the asian community offence, to be fair there is little that can be done about it and the decision was most probably motivated by cash and not racism. That does not mean people are not allowed to be offended by it.

Film studios face a huge financial pressure more than most people would imagine, people think that shitty films are made because hollywood doesn't know what a good film is when the reality is most people DO know what a good film is but are under the burden of having to make serious money so they crank out the crap. Hence everything has to have box office appeal they play it safe and according to hollywood people would be less likely to go and see film if the lead was played by a non-caucasian character. Yes, there are exceptions (Will Smith has great box office appeal) but generally they are only going to go on what they see. Sad to say society hasn't progressed enough for the race of actors in a film to not matter... that's just the way it is.

The people who are offended by it have every right to be, if someone took my story to make a film about it and cast someone of a different race as my character I'd be a bit like wtf? If they then went on to change the race of my friends and the only ethnic people they cast were extreme idiotic and stereotypical representations, I would be offended.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Mar 31, 2008)

yeah, it's racist, of course everything in hollywood is racist.  What sells? big titty blondy blue eye white chicks.  What doesn't sell, almost anything else, especially where a non-white is the lead.  Remember that asian guy in the movie played second fiddle in Disturbia also.  this is a fact, why pretend it's not true. 

but the majority of consumers , both white and non-white, eat that shit up, so , it's just a fact of life in the US.

but hollywood has been improving a bit, they balance out the participation, and the goodies and baddies.  Morpheus plays a good guy in this movie right, and the lead white kid starts good but turns bad, right?  

And in disturbia the asian kid is supposed to be helpful and supportive.

Blehhh, what can i say..


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## Wilham (Mar 31, 2008)

Wow just another thing for people to bitch about.


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## Dimezanime88 (Mar 31, 2008)

Niabingi said:


> I don't get why people are failing to see what caused the asian community offence, to be fair there is little that can be done about it and the decision was most probably motivated by cash and not racism. That does not mean people are not allowed to be offended by it.
> 
> Film studios face a huge financial pressure more than most people would imagine, people think that shitty films are made because hollywood doesn't know what a good film is when the reality is most people DO know what a good film is but are under the burden of having to make serious money so they crank out the crap. Hence everything has to have box office appeal they play it safe and according to hollywood people would be less likely to go and see film if the lead was played by a non-caucasian character. Yes, there are exceptions (Will Smith has great box office appeal) but generally they are only going to go on what they see. Sad to say society hasn't progressed enough for the race of actors in a film to not matter... that's just the way it is.
> 
> The people who are offended by it have every right to be, if someone took my story to make a film about it and cast someone of a different race as my character I'd be a bit like wtf? If they then went on to change the race of my friends and the only ethnic people they cast were extreme idiotic and stereotypical representations, I would be offended.


 
Exactly! Reps for that.


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## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 31, 2008)

Niabingi said:


> I don't get why people are failing to see what caused the asian community offence, to be fair there is little that can be done about it and the decision was most probably motivated by cash and not racism. That does not mean people are not allowed to be offended by it.
> 
> Film studios face a huge financial pressure more than most people would imagine, people think that shitty films are made because hollywood doesn't know what a good film is when the reality is most people DO know what a good film is but are under the burden of having to make serious money so they crank out the crap. Hence everything has to have box office appeal they play it safe and according to hollywood people would be less likely to go and see film if the lead was played by a non-caucasian character. Yes, there are exceptions (Will Smith has great box office appeal) but generally they are only going to go on what they see. Sad to say society hasn't progressed enough for the race of actors in a film to not matter... that's just the way it is.
> 
> The people who are offended by it have every right to be, if someone took my story to make a film about it and cast someone of a different race as my character I'd be a bit like wtf? If they then went on to change the race of my friends and the only ethnic people they cast were extreme idiotic and stereotypical representations, I would be offended.




I have to agree with you there. They may have not mean it but to completely change the race of the original people is a bit too much. I mean, if the movie is that good why does it matter about the race? 

Just goes to show you that people don't care about plot in Hollywood that much.


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## Buskuv (Mar 31, 2008)

What impresses me is not the fact that people seem so adamant about how hollywood is, in many facets and viewpoints, but the fact that these people still pay money to see these movies. The reason these movies keep getting belted out is because they're making exorbitant amounts of money for it, and all while people are complaining, I'm sure there are those going to see it anyways.

Certainly, whether or not it is inherently racist is no concern for those offended, as they have a right to be. However, if so many people are offended and off put by these stereotypically replete movies, why do they continue to bombard the consumer on a daily basis through a myriad of media outlets? Why do they still garner the attention that they do? Don't complain if you are part of the cause.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Mar 31, 2008)

well it's a double edged sword, eg:

As a paying customer and tech nerd I want to watch the latest and greatest in effects when i watch a movie. Or if I was an aspiring movie maker I would want to see the state of the art in movie making.  Last year 300 fulfilled both of those categories.  300 was blatantly racist in that all the good guys were clearly white and the bad guys were black or colored.  Now either for entertainment or for utility, i had to watch that movie because it was the apex of movies, yet it was racist as hell.  So what can be done, just steal the movie really.


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## benstevens19 (Mar 31, 2008)

Sean Connery said:


> can I buy some pot from you



wait, you neg repped me because i said rascism still exists, get out of your shell man.


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## Emery (Apr 1, 2008)

It amazes me how people think race is so fucking important.  We're all the damn same.  Human fucking beings.  If the guy the movie was based off of didn't have ANY problem with it (Shit, he even made a cameo in the movie) then why should anyone else?

In my opinion, you're contributing to racism if you condone in and propogate this trashy complaint.  It's people like you who FUEL racism.  Once the world realizes that, no matter what color your skin in, you're still a human being -- then it will know peace.

But, hey... that's not going to happen anytime soon, is it?


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## MF NaruSimpson (Apr 1, 2008)

Emery said:


> It amazes me how people think race is so fucking important.  We're all the damn same.  Human fucking beings.  If the guy the movie was based off of didn't have ANY problem with it (Shit, he even made a cameo in the movie) then why should anyone else?
> 
> In my opinion, you're contributing to racism if you condone in and propogate this trashy complaint.  It's people like you who FUEL racism.  Once the world realizes that, no matter what color your skin in, you're still a human being -- then it will know peace.
> 
> But, hey... that's not going to happen anytime soon, is it?



i only have to read one second of your post to say "it's the money, stupid"


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## Emery (Apr 1, 2008)

Yeah... I wasn't talking about the movie, but racism in general, pal.


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## Niabingi (Apr 1, 2008)

Emery said:


> It amazes me how people think race is so fucking important.  We're all the damn same.  Human fucking beings.  If the guy the movie was based off of didn't have ANY problem with it (Shit, he even made a cameo in the movie) then why should anyone else?


Because being told that being of whatever race you may come from will automatically make you unbankable and less popular amongst the masses unless of course you dance to the beat of the stereotype drum, is probably something that's no fun to hear.



> In my opinion, you're contributing to racism if you condone in and propogate this trashy complaint.  It's people like you who FUEL racism.  Once the world realizes that, no matter what color your skin in, you're still a human being -- then it will know peace.


One the world realises that then there would never be any complaints like this as race wont even figure into what is going to make a film popular or bankable.
If you look at my previous point you will see the point I was making was simply that Hollywood looks at the current climate and feels that yes race DOES still matter to most of society. Hence that becomes a factor when they cast a film. Sad to say that is still where we are at, not complaining about it is by no means the practical step needed to change it. So by your theory race not mattering means that as opposed to people no longer judging others based on race, the people being judged should just be okay about it and say nothing??


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## Emery (Apr 1, 2008)

Niabingi said:


> Because being told that being of whatever race you may come from will automatically make you unbankable and less popular amongst the masses unless of course you dance to the beat of the stereotype drum, is probably something that's no fun to hear.



....What?  Seriously, that run-on sentence made little to no sense at all. 




> One the world realises that then there would never be any complaints like this as race wont even figure into what is going to make a film popular or bankable.
> If you look at my previous point you will see the point I was making was simply that Hollywood looks at the current climate and feels that yes race DOES still matter to most of society. Hence that becomes a factor when they cast a film. Sad to say that is still where we are at, not complaining about it is by no means the practical step needed to change it. So by your theory race not mattering means that as opposed to people no longer judging others based on race, the people being judged should just be okay about it and say nothing??




First of all -- you have absolutely NO idea what was going on in the filmmaker's heads.  You just automatically assume the worse.  Any excuse you can to play the race card... eh?  *There were two asians in the main cast -- Liza Lapira and Aaron Yoo.  The man whom the film was based on, Jeff Ma, approved of and even made a cameo in the film.*  The film was not a biography.  It was a drama movie inspired by a book, which was inspired by a real-life event.  

You said "not complaining about it is by no means the practical step needed to change it."

You know what's _worse?_  Assuming the _worst_ and _bitching_ about it.  You're _feuling_ racism.  You're pushing the notion that we are a segregated collective of beings.  We're not.  

And who the fuck is judging who, here?  There was no racial "judgement" in this movie, so that crap at the end of your paragraph is a non-factor.  Even if that were the case, they should just RISE ABOVE.  There's always going to be dumbass racists out there.  They're like school bullies.  You keep reacting, and they'll keep degrading you.  If you had the stones to rise above and beyond, you'd be a whole lot better off.

Why aren't people bitching about the lack of Black, Hispanic, and Middle-Eastern people in the movie?  It's all in the same boat.  

Or how about the fact that Laurence Fishburne played a violent character?  Ooh! An angry Black man!  So stereotypical!  Let's boycott it!  Amirite?

I don't see it that way.  


See if you can follow my train of thought...


I see him as an angry *man.*  Not an angry *Black man.*


Rise above and beyond race and racism.  Rise above.


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## Niabingi (Apr 1, 2008)

> First of all -- you have absolutely NO idea what was going on in the filmmaker's heads. You just automatically assume the worse. Any excuse you can to play the race card... eh?


Ahh yes, i'm playing the race card.. because I too am asian ....
I see no race card here... who does the complaint benefit? Nobody, what does the asian community get out of the complaint? Nothing. People were offended and are talking about it, its not even like they are trying to get compensation or take legal action or some shit they are just complaining and mostly within there own community. If this is playing the race card they just did a veeery bad job of it.
It's not assuming the worst, it's knowing the worst. My one burning ambition in life is to be a film director and as such I have taken steps towards it, I have to say i'm luck because I made a great friend in school whose family just happened to be involved in film (Her dad is a director and he even cast me in a big series he did, her aunt is an oscar winning make up artist and her uncle is a camera man... I can pm names and links and such but i'm not gonna post it here). I KNOW how hollywood works, money is at the centre of everyting and when casting lead roles they are considering who fits the part and who they can sell. Sadly, hollywood still believes that it can not sell people of ethnic backgrounds due to the climate that they see in the world around them there are 3 bankable ethnic actors Will Smith, Denzel Washington and Samuel L Jackson those are the only 3 whom hollywood may allow to carry a film especially Will Smith the man is box office GOLD.
I sat down and had in-depth discussions with my friends dad about how hard it is to make it in the industry and what drives it he let me read a script he had just completed and he told me he was made to rewrite the main role from a black lead to a white one to make it more appealing to a global market. It's not motivated by racism at all most of the people in the film industry are the most forward thinking people you will meet they just go on what they see the climate of society is. 

In the case of this film, if the lead is asian what possible reason could there be for NOT letting any asian people audition for the lead role? If the roles were open to anyone fine.



> ....What? Seriously, that run-on sentence made little to no sense at all.


You said, (I summarise) if the dude whom it is based on did not have a problem with it then why should anyone else? To which I replied...
"Because being told that being of whatever race you may come from will automatically make you unbankable and less popular amongst the masses unless of course you dance to the beat of the stereotype drum, is probably something that's no fun to hear."
Which was me summing up why people other than the dude its based loosely on had issue with the film.



> There were two asians in the main cast -- Liza Lapira and Aaron Yoo.


So....?? It's not about not having asian people in the film so this irrelevant (although these two characters fail pathetically in this film).



> Why aren't people bitching about the lack of Black, Hispanic, and Middle-Eastern people in the movie? It's all in the same boat.


Irrelevant, the film is not based on a black, hispanic or middle eastern person. Filmmakers didnt make te active decision to sideline any black or hispanic or middle eastern characters in this film.



> I see him as an angry man. Not an angry Black man.


...nothing wrong with this sentiment  but it still made me 



> Rise above and beyond race and racism. Rise above.


It's not about racism as much as it being about the climate of society. No place have I ever said I thought it was racism just that it is offensive to the asian community, but at the same time it's not hollywoods fault they just go on what they see in society and what has worked for them in the past nobody wants to take a chance. This is perhaps one of the few cases where it's actually society that will make the difference before the industry does.



> And who the fuck is judging who, here? There was no racial "judgement" in this movie, so that crap at the end of your paragraph is a non-factor.


Maybe that was the wrong term to use, but I basically meant the fact that the film industry judges/deems (in this case) asians to e lacking mainstream and box office appeal.


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## Sean Connery (Apr 1, 2008)

what's next, they gonna call the Ninja Gaiden Commercial for Nintendo DS Racist too, since you have a white guy dressed up as a Ninja


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## Emery (Apr 1, 2008)

Niabingi said:


> Ahh yes, i'm playing the race card.. because I too am asian ....
> I see no race card here... who does the complaint benefit? Nobody, what does the asian community get out of the complaint? Nothing. People were offended and are talking about it, its not even like they are trying to get compensation or take legal action or some shit they are just complaining and mostly within there own community. If this is playing the race card they just did a veeery bad job of it.
> It's not assuming the worst, it's knowing the worst. My one burning ambition in life is to be a film director and as such I have taken steps towards it, I have to say i'm luck because I made a great friend in school whose family just happened to be involved in film (Her dad is a director and he even cast me in a big series he did, her aunt is an oscar winning make up artist and her uncle is a camera man... I can pm names and links and such but i'm not gonna post it here). I KNOW how hollywood works, money is at the centre of everyting and when casting lead roles they are considering who fits the part and who they can sell. Sadly, hollywood still believes that it can not sell people of ethnic backgrounds due to the climate that they see in the world around them there are 3 bankable ethnic actors Will Smith, Denzel Washington and Samuel L Jackson those are the only 3 whom hollywood may allow to carry a film especially Will Smith the man is box office GOLD.
> I sat down and had in-depth discussions with my friends dad about how hard it is to make it in the industry and what drives it he let me read a script he had just completed and he told me he was made to rewrite the main role from a black lead to a white one to make it more appealing to a global market. It's not motivated by racism at all most of the people in the film industry are the most forward thinking people you will meet they just go on what they see the climate of society is.
> ...



I love how you conviniently left out this part:

"The man whom the film was based on, Jeff Ma, approved of and even made a cameo in the film. The film was not a biography. It was a drama movie inspired by a book, which was inspired by a real-life event. "


Which pretty much makes everything you just wrote completely moot.


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## Niabingi (Apr 1, 2008)

Emery said:


> I love how you conviniently left out this part:
> 
> "The man whom the film was based on, Jeff Ma, approved of and even made a cameo in the film. The film was not a biography. It was a drama movie inspired by a book, which was inspired by a real-life event. "


I left it out cause it seemed like the most irrelevant part of your post. Why is what he thinks the standard that everyone else should go by? A friend of mine who was born cripple got kicked down the stairs at school, he was okay with it and wanted to let it go. Didn't stop me from thinking it was wrong being pissed of and taking action... 
So only if the person whom the incident has involved is upset by it then everyone else is allowed to be... 
Frankly I do not give a darn what Jeff Ma thought or did, unless he has become the offical asian spokesperson. I'm sure he got paid enjoyed his money had fun filming his cameo and didnt think twice about it. Not that he is in the wrong for doing that but the people who looked at it deeper are not wrong either.

I will say it again I do not blame the asian community for being offended because by making the casting choice that they did the asian community felt as though they had been told 





> that being of whatever race you may come from (in this case being asian) will automatically make you unbankable and less popular amongst the masses unless of course you dance to the beat of the stereotype drum, is probably something that's no fun to hear.


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## MF NaruSimpson (Apr 1, 2008)

Emery said:


> I love how you conviniently left out this part:
> 
> "The man whom the film was based on, Jeff Ma, approved of and even made a cameo in the film. The film was not a biography. It was a drama movie inspired by a book, which was inspired by a real-life event. "
> 
> ...



i'll repeat myself, it's more importantly about the money.  Asian actors are very good, but by being written out of the lead role they are being denied lead money.  how can this be encouraging to the asian or non-white community, if an aspiring actor is guaranteed less money simply based on race?  Or more importantly their chance in the limelight?  All of these factors which will affect future income.

even if the guy who the story is based on said it's ok, i'm sure 99/100 actors will say  who gives a rat's ass what jeff ma thinks, he's not an actor, he's not trying to feed a family or make a living in acting.  What jeff ma thinks is moot to the topic.


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## benstevens19 (Apr 2, 2008)

Emery said:


> It amazes me how people think race is so fucking important.  We're all the damn same.  Human fucking beings.  If the guy the movie was based off of didn't have ANY problem with it (Shit, he even made a cameo in the movie) then why should anyone else?



money, they paid him for the story and the cameo. it amazes me how white people care about rascism more than us minority, the very idea of racism drives up a wall. random white guy "its not fair black people can use the n word and we cant". so what you are saying is , if you could use it you would.


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## Dimezanime88 (Apr 2, 2008)

Emery said:


> It amazes me how people think race is so fucking important. We're all the damn same. Human fucking beings. If the guy the movie was based off of didn't have ANY problem with it (Shit, he even made a cameo in the movie) then why should anyone else?
> 
> In my opinion, you're contributing to racism if you condone in and propogate this trashy complaint. It's people like you who FUEL racism. Once the world realizes that, no matter what color your skin in, you're still a human being -- then it will know peace.
> 
> But, hey... that's not going to happen anytime soon, is it?


So, because he accepted it, we all should as well?


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## MF NaruSimpson (Apr 3, 2008)

Sean Connery said:


> what's next, they gonna call the Ninja Gaiden Commercial for Nintendo DS Racist too, since you have a white guy dressed up as a Ninja



I read this, and there are big differences.  The differences being:

-a lead role in "21" is much more financially lucrative than the fake ninja role in the 15 second commercial.

-the fake ninja was just being silly and doing some clown tricks.  the actors in 21 and any possible asian lead were trying to be serious and tell a story.

among others, but i just don't wanna go on about that.


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## Batman (Apr 3, 2008)

Beware the hollywood black list: asian actors now included.


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