# Lucifer and Michael vs the Beyonder pre-retcon



## RavenSupreme (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm currently at issue 12 or so of lucifer and it's already :mahnigga

Who would win a battle between the duo and the beyonder? 

I knows it's a little controversial but maybe we find a consens no?


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)

Lucifer and Michael win. DC cosmology is infinitely layered. It's like dark tower.


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## howdy01 (Nov 29, 2016)



Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## gajoobwalrus (Nov 29, 2016)

Aren't Luci & Michael each individually more powerful than TLT? 
I'm pretty sure they hold the "power of creation" or some shit like that. I could be wrong tho. 
Beyonder was crazy way back when, but I doubt he could take both of them, if even one

Reactions: Like 2


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## Deer Lord (Nov 29, 2016)

gajoobwalrus said:


> Aren't Luci & Michael each individually more powerful than TLT?


It's difficult to say.
LT is most often compared to Specter, but that is because of their job rather than power level.

Considering LT is only second to TOAA similarly to how Lucy and Mike are to Presence I'd say they are in similar ballparks.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder was above LT by a fair margin.
Then again Lucy & Mike combined supposedly wield a power like The Presence's so perhaps he can't quite beat the both of them together.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

Who's more powerful between Lucifer, the writer, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid and the Presence?


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Who's more powerful between Lucifer, the writer, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid and the Presence?


Overvoid is Monitor mind and the strongest of them


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## Deer Lord (Nov 29, 2016)

It really doesn't make sense for anything to be > the writer


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

It really doesn't. How's the writer not the true TOAA of DC ?


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> Overvoid is Monitor mind and the strongest of them


how so?


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> It really doesn't. How's the writer not the true TOAA of DC ?


Reasons


Ayy lmao said:


> how so?


All of DC is just a story to it


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm not going to argue power because Beyonder could be powerful however here is the case why Beyonder would lose. He is an idiot plain and simple constant being fooled or outwitted. Put him against Lucifer (even if Lucifer was depowered) and the moment  Morningstar opens his mouth Beyonder is fucked.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)




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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)

They can just mind control beyonder.


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)



Reactions: Winner 1


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

Michael and Lucifer are well above the entire Marvel abstracts. Not that it matter He has been fooled constantly even by Dr. Doom.


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Yeah

Same Doom who  gained the powers of the Beyonder only to lose it when he took it back via possessing the Klaw


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

Does not matter the point is Beyonder was stupid enough to lose it, Doom always mess up his owns plans so...


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## Katsuargi (Nov 29, 2016)

If I recall correctly, Micheal and Lucifer working together are the equal of the Presence, and alone are each sitting on top of some absurd level of multiversal.

Pretty sure they take this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

Katsuargi said:


> If I recall correctly, Micheal and Lucifer working together are the equal of the Presence, and alone are each sitting on top of some absurd level of multiversal.
> 
> Pretty sure they take this.


Correct Michael has the Presence power to create and destroy and Lucifer has the Presence will to shape. Elaine has both.


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Katsuargi said:


> If I recall correctly, Micheal and Lucifer working together are the equal of the Presence, and alone are each sitting on top of some absurd level of multiversal.
> 
> Pretty sure they take this.



So are Death and Living Tribunal

Just ask Beyonder 

Didn't really mean much to him though 

Same with Mephisto even after he put a great chunk of his power into a cup


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## RavenSupreme (Nov 29, 2016)

elaine that little 11 year old shit nugget?


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

Darth Nihilus said:


> So are Death and Living Tribunal
> 
> Just ask Beyonder
> 
> ...


Death isn't even comparable to Death of the endless and doesn't have the feats.
Living Tribunal while powerful is still well below a  small fraction of the TOAA power (HOTU) and Lucifer and Micheal represent 1/2 of the Presence power. 
Mephisto really you're using as a power gauge here?


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Death isn't even comparable to Death of the endless and doesn't have the feats.



Because I was obviously comparing the two as you are right now. 



The Mad King said:


> Living Tribunal while powerful is still well below a  small fraction of the TOAA power (HOTU) and Lucifer and Micheal represent 1/2 of the Presence power



Which means what to the Beyonder? 



The Mad King said:


> Mephisto really you're using as a power gauge here?



Yeah, I am. Because even Mephisto was scared to attack a depowered Beyonder. Same with the rest of the abstracts in the room with him.


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)




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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 29, 2016)

Are we talking about Elaine now?

She is 100% Equal to The Presence. Hell, the new evil Presence is scared of her.

Also. The Writer / Grant Morrison is just that, The Writer.

The Overmonitor is the page which the writer uses, the blank canvas of all possible creation. It predates God.

God is God.

The Demiurges (Michael and Lucifer) where the instruments God used to created the whole DC Comics Creation. Many people consider The Presence "Omniversal" for being capable of holding the DC Creation as a tiny ball in his hands, but the Demiurges can very much do just that.

The Endless are the embodiments of said creation / omniverse / multiverse.

Also, praise and respect Elaine, The One True Goddess of Everything - Hedgehogs:


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 29, 2016)

Resposting some scans I posted on another thread:

Lucifer destroying multiple multiverses with a gaze:

, , , 

The Endless are what define all of existence. They aren't merely embodiments or gods, they simply are. .









Destiny is the background of all existing things. 

Demiurges >>>>>>>>>>> The Endless

It has .

,   .

Yahweh's creation is the whole DC Multiverse, which if you are not dishonest, you'll know it's not a simple Multiverse. Far from it. .

An evidence that the Multiverse is far more than simply Infinite Universes:

""

When Lucifer leaves the Multiverse and reaches the Void, he exists in a place with no definitions of time nor place, only an endless, beginningless emptiness. In it, all things are layered onto themselves infinitely and perspective is twisted and repeated infinitely. Lucifer can adapt to, and exist in such a place.

This dialogue:




The concepts of Time, Space and Infinity have absolutely no meaning to Lucifer Morningstar.

  , The Endless' mom. She is completely abstract, incomprehensible and transcendental to Dream of the Endless. The Demiurges are still above her.

There is that happened in the latest Lucifer issue.

tl;dr: No, this Michael Jackson looking fucker is not touching Lucy and Mike.

/thread

Reactions: Like 2


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 29, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Resposting some scans I posted on another thread:
> 
> Lucifer destroying multiple multiverses with a gaze:
> 
> ...


Holy fuck that's a lot of great scans
Only one is needed to prove lucifer wins anyways

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Resposting some scans I posted on another thread:
> 
> Lucifer destroying multiple multiverses with a gaze:
> 
> , , ,








MatthewSchroeder said:


> When Lucifer leaves the Multiverse and reaches the Void, he exists in a place with no definitions of time nor place, only an endless, beginningless emptiness. In it, all things are layered onto themselves infinitely and perspective is twisted and repeated infinitely. Lucifer can adapt to, and exist in such a place.



Void, meet Beyond Realm






MatthewSchroeder said:


> The concepts of Time, Space and Infinity have absolutely no meaning to Lucifer Morningstar.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 29, 2016)

is there anything more impressive than beyonder comparing the entirety of marvel to a single drop of water while he is the ocean


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

Thing is I agree Beyonder is insanely powerful, however how does he rank compared to the HoTU? That's what most of you just skip over. Beating the LT just means he is stronger than Megaversal+ but doesn't guarantee him to be omniversal


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## randomsurfer (Nov 29, 2016)

If Elaine is equal to the presence, doesn't that mean that the Presence is no longer omnipotent? Doesn't make sense to have two omnipotent beings in the same comic if being omnipotent means being the strongest.


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Wolfgang Grimmer said:


> is there anything more impressive than beyonder comparing the entirety of marvel to a single drop of water while he is the ocean

Reactions: Like 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 29, 2016)

randomsurfer said:


> If Elaine is equal to the presence, doesn't that mean that the Presence is no longer omnipotent? Doesn't make sense to have two omnipotent beings in the same comic if being omnipotent means being the strongest.



He never was Omnipotent. He was shaped by the dreams and imaginations of sentient beings across creation, while simultaneously creating it.

He made a sword that could kill him / incapacitate himself for 10 Years.

His omniscience is limited.

The void predates him.

Oh, and The Great Darkness is his equal too, but they merged into one.

Yahweh is matched by two people, and surpassed by two. Those two being literally the page and The Writer. The later I'd argue for being the most powerful Multiversal+++ character in fiction, alongside Azathoth


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 29, 2016)

Also, that "Beyonder is God before Genesis" talk and all his statements of Omnipotence means shit.

He is Millions of times greater than the whole multiverse in power, above The Living Tribunal, albeit far before TLT displayed his best, Megaverse holding feats, and is one with the Beyond-Realm. All of this is neat, but in terms of feats he cannot compare to the Demiurges. At best Beyonder is Endless level.

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## Huey Freeman (Nov 29, 2016)

I'd say Beyonder is below HoTU level but as I said before and I say it one more time Lucfier talk him out of his powers


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 29, 2016)

Lucifer's talking-powers are second to none.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 30, 2016)

Beyonder is stronger Pre retcon but he has the mind of a child and can sometimes botch. If Lucifer is given even some time ti talk to Beyonder he could easily make this dumbass give him his powers or end himself. Lucifer is a vastly better character from a vastly better comic however than Shooter's fanfic character.  In DC there are beings who could take Pre retcon Beyonder but you need to go higher than Lucy/Michael.

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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 30, 2016)

There aren't any higher than Lucifer and Mike outside of God, Overmonitor and Writer.


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

Beyonder is probably equal to one of the endless, although which is up for debate, but not lucifer level. Mother night alone could beat him.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Solar (Nov 30, 2016)

Embodying something doesn't mean you're at that level. So embodying a multuverse does not mean you're multiversal.


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## TobiSan (Nov 30, 2016)

This is probably a stalemate.

Michael can create matter, Lucifer can make a Multiverse out of a single particle, as long as he wills, it happens.

Michael isn't even needed here, Beyonder and Lucifer themselves are made out of matter which Lucifer can manipulate. It's a stalemate even if Beyonder faces Michael and Lucifer separately.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 30, 2016)

Lucifer is not made of matter.

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## TobiSan (Nov 30, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Lucifer is not made of matter.



Everything is made of matter.


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Everything is made of matter.


Space and time are not, just to start with.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## TobiSan (Nov 30, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> Space and time are not, just to start with.


Neither are objects.


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Neither are objects.


Lucifer definitely isn't. He exists in "places" beyond all definitions of space and time.


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2016)

To be fair if lucifer was made of matter he wouldn't need Michael


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> ...why?


Because remember Lucifer can't create and he can't shape from nothing


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Because remember Lucifer can't create and he can't shape from nothing


Proving they are made of matter... How exactly?


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 30, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> Proving they are made of matter... How exactly?


I'm not saying he is made from matter, I said if he were made from it then he didn't need Michael to created the DC multiverse


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 30, 2016)

I don't see why anyone would ever think that a Demiurge, the First Being created by God, who stands above the abstract Embodiments of all Existence, and above all definitions of time, space and infinity would be made of matter...

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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

Dream of the endless alone could probably beat beyonder.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Nov 30, 2016)

That is a Tonathan Blog, m8. Even if it is mostly legit, no one's gonna buy it.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Empress Angeline (Nov 30, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> That is a Tonathan Blog, m8. Even if it is mostly legit, no one's gonna buy it.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> Lucifer definitely isn't. He exists in "places" beyond all definitions of space and time.


He still has a body that is made of matter. Space and Time are concepts.
How did his body burn up after Basanos attacked? How does he get stabbed? He is made of matter.

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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

This hierarchy is so wrong it's not even funny. Spectre is way too high up, Spectre is one of the arch-angels and was beaten easily by Michael Demiurgos.

Dream of Endless slightly below Arch-Angels. Also Dream of Endless is not the most powerful of The Endless. Destiny is the most powerful, with Death as second and Dream as 3rd.

It's really hard to choose which one is stronger Destiny or Death after reading Books of Magic, it's most likely Destiny.

Also I don't know what he is talking about, but both Michael and Lucifer are alive and powerful.

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## GOATing Onem Folks (Dec 1, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> He still has a body that is made of matter. Space and Time are concepts.
> How did his body burn up after Basanos attacked? How does he get stabbed? He is made of matter.



Did u even read the comic /facepalm



TobiSan said:


> This hierarchy is so wrong it's not even funny. Spectre is way too high up, Spectre is one of the arch-angels and was beaten easily by Michael Demiurgos.
> 
> Dream of Endless slightly below Arch-Angels. Also Dream of Endless is not the most powerful of The Endless. Destiny is the most powerful, with Death as second and Dream as 3rd.
> 
> ...



Death is the most powerful Endless. She predates Destiny, at the end of all she will close the final door, including Destiny and his book.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 1, 2016)

overmonitor is not primal monitor right? because i heard the primal moitor is the absolute top dog in dc


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

GOATing Onem Folks said:


> Did u even read the comic /facepalm
> 
> 
> 
> Death is the most powerful Endless. She predates Destiny, at the end of all she will close the final door, including Destiny and his book.



Yes I read the comic book, did you? Micahel created matter, Lucifer created suns and Gabriel created patterns where evolution took over.

Sandman heavily implied Destiny to be the most powerful, that is why I said I was torn between Death and Destiny after Books of Magic.



RavenSupreme said:


> overmonitor is not primal monitor right? because i heard the primal moitor is the absolute top dog in dc


They are the same character, created by Morrison.

Also when Presence died to his own sword, he wasn't Omnipotent, he gave away his powers to Elaine Belloc. The Dog who is talking to Stranger is actually Elaine Belloc because Presence currently is a Demon who wants to destroy Free Will.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 1, 2016)

GOATing Onem Folks said:


> The Presence supercedes the Overmonitor, the void. Period. If he didnt he wouldnt be able to bring PS back but he did who was erased on every single level even conceptual.



This doesn't mean that at all.

Throwing something into the Void and then retrieving it doesn't imply that the presence is >the void


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> This doesn't mean that at all.
> 
> Throwing something into the Void and then retrieving it doesn't imply that the presence is >the void



Considering that Void was only mentioned to be a character 1 time by 1 writer without any feats or actually showing of being sentient, it's not above The Presence.

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## RavenSupreme (Dec 1, 2016)

Hasn't the presence stated there is someone above him?

To me it appears the general consens is : primal monitor / the writer / page whatever > presence / GEB > luci and Michael


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> Hasn't the presence stated there is someone above him?
> 
> To me it appears the general consens is : primal monitor / the writer / page whatever > presence / GEB > luci and Michael



Luci is above Michael and was stated by Morpheus to be above everyone except The Presence his creator.


Like I said before Presence stating he was shaped by external forces was a nod to Sandman and I don't feel like explaining that conversation between Lucifer and Presence for the thousandth time, just read Sandman and then Lucifer to debate about that conversation, don't debate on out of context scans.

Short version: DC creation existed before Presence existed. Time and space was changed on fundamental level so that Presence is the Omnipotent God and created everything, it's all explained in The Sandman.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Why did this thread even turn to who is the most powerful DC character? Everything is so messed up in DC, writers and Dan DiDio don't give 2 shits about canon.

Morrison wrote that Source Wall is around the creation. Multiple Pre52 books stated that Source Wall is a wall between different universes which separates each Universe.

Death of Endless was first on Nekron level, being one of the many aspects of Death, she was compassion IIRC. Then Neil Gaiman rebooted her to be a powerful abstract. After writing Sandman, Neil Gaiman regretted that he made Sandman canon to Pre52.

Then Mike Carrey wrote Lucifer as Canon to Pre52 and later stated that it isn't canon to DC.

Then Holley Black wrote Lucifer second series and told me that it isn't canon to DC. After arguing with her for a while that her series is canon to Lucifer and Sandman both which are canon to DC, how can her book not be canon to DC she stopped responding to me.

Mike Carrey while writing Lucifer used 3 different words to describe creation: Creation, Universe, Multiverse. Like make up your damn mind. It's really hard to convince people Lucifer is Multiversal when half of the time they mention Universe instead of Multiverse.

Then there is some guy in DC that claims to be the Architect and the first being Presence created.

The Dog who Phantom Stranger is talking to is implied to be The Presence even though Elaine Belloc is the current God.

The Presence dies powerless and then is suddenly Reborn again as Omnipotent God as he is taking away free will from The Host Army and resurrecting Micahel Demiurgos.

Elaine Belloc claims she is Omniscient multiple times, even shows Omniscience powers. Then later claims she is isn't totally Omniscient and she can't read the minds of various lesser Gods.

Fuck me, does canon and consistency even matter anymore?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

My God, so much stupid.

The Primal Monitor / The Void predates God, as has been called God's Unconsciousness. It wasn't mentioned in one issue. It's been around since the 90s, it's in the Lucifer Comics, it's in Multiversity and Final Crisis, as well as Justice League Dark. Stop lying.

Context matters, Tobi. No one has ever had any difficulty proving that Lucifer is Megaversal. You're the one who goes as far as thinking that regular Archangels are Street level+

And The Presence isn't Omnipotent guys:



And NO, this is not a 4th Wall break. People asked the writer and he clarified in detail.



This can't happen to you and you continue being Omnipotent.

Neither can this:



Neither can he be if Elaine's Omniscience is limited, and if Evil Presence is afraid of her implying that he gave Elaine the majority of his power.

And don't forget The Great Evil Beast which is 100% equal to God:

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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Elaine being only Nigh-Omniscient:


Presence hesitating and not killing Lucifer once he is reminded that Elaine is on Lucy's side:



>


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> My God, so much stupid.
> 
> The Primal Monitor / The Void predates God, as has been called God's Unconsciousness. It wasn't mentioned in one issue. It's been around since the 90s, it's in the Lucifer Comics, it's in Multiversity and Final Crisis, as well as Justice League Dark. Stop lying.
> 
> ...



First you start making things up about what I say and then you start posting out of context scans.

1. I only claimed Lucifer to be street level when he was powerless
2. I have already explained 3 times in this thread that Presence conversation is a nod to Sandman. I already explained that DC existed before Presence and then Time and Space was changed so Presence is the Omnipotent creator. So you are showing me this why?
3. I already again explained that Yahweh gave away his Omnipotent powers to Elaine when he was stabbed by Gabriel. Yahweh himself stated he was tired of Omnipotence and gave it away.
4. I already explained Elaine Belloc.

It's like you aren't reading my posts and just reply with your own agenda, this is my last reply to you. I don't have the time for your shit.


At one point Elaine claims she is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. Then the next moment she claims that she isn't.

It's really anybody's guess and boils down do how people take her as because the writers aren't consistent at all.

Blame Holly Black not me.

Same could be said about TOAA.
In Thanos: Infinity Finale, it was stated multiple times that TOAA is all knowing and then Thanos goes saying that there are things that would even TOAA doesn't know, then goes again saying that TOAA already knows what those things are and he knows everything.

It just boils down to the fact that writers don't want to write characters Omnipotent and they are inconsistent.

People just take it at face value that Presence and TOAA are Omnipotents of their respected fictions because otherwise it would boil down to who is a stronger creator which would never end in debates.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 1, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Death of Endless was first on Nekron level, being one of the many aspects of Death, she was compassion IIRC. Then Neil Gaiman rebooted her to be a powerful abstract. After writing Sandman, Neil Gaiman regretted that he made Sandman canon to Pre52.



Death of the Endless was originally true death, the Nekron thing was a retcon by whoever was writing during Blackest Night (fuck if I remember this, geoff johns I guess?) because at the time there was a big push by DC higher ups to fold all of their popular vertigo titles more explicitly into the mainstream DC universe.

Yes, if you go back, Sandman has allusions to other bits of the DC universe but for the most part it takes place in its own little world, as do a lot of other vertigo titles, that's why there's so much conflict between Constantine and Sandman/Lucifer on how Hell works, who satan is, etc.

Gaiman later came out and said that he hadn't intended for Death to work that way and still thought of her as the supreme "aspect" of death but it's debatable whether the DC retcon supersedes this as the true company policy or not since I believe they own the character and not him. That said, most subsequent portrayals have been in line with Gaiman's intentions so that answers that imo.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Death of The Endless IS death. Period.

No other personifications of Death in DC can be nothing more than shadows of her, by definition.

Tobi:

It wasn't a response solely to you, thank you. It was also to the jackass who said Presence is Omnipotent.

Also, great way of taking the TOAA dialogue out of context. Thanos and Adam themselves admit that it already happened, always happened to TOAA and he knew the outcome, they were merely having a linear conversation with a being beyond time.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Death of the Endless was originally true death, the Nekron thing was a retcon by whoever was writing during Blackest Night (fuck if I remember this, geoff johns I guess?) because at the time there was a big push by DC higher ups to fold all of their popular vertigo titles more explicitly into the mainstream DC universe.
> 
> Yes, if you go back, Sandman has allusions to other bits of the DC universe but for the most part it takes place in its own little world, as do a lot of other vertigo titles, that's why there's so much conflict between Constantine and Sandman/Lucifer on how Hell works, who satan is, etc.
> 
> Gaiman later came out and said that he hadn't intended for Death to work that way and still thought of her as the supreme "aspect" of death but it's debatable whether the DC retcon supersedes this as the true company policy or not since I believe they own the character and not him. That said, most subsequent portrayals have been in line with Gaiman's intentions so that answers that imo.



Death of Endless was first one of many aspects of Death, she appeared in Captain Atom.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Death of The Endless IS death. Period.
> 
> No other personifications of Death in DC can be nothing more than shadows of her, by definition.
> 
> ...


How was I taking it out of context? I said that Thanos explained TOAA to be all knowing, then there is something he doesn't know and then again all knowing. So which is it?

Because Elaine Belloc also claims to be Omnipotent and then not and then again and then not and then again and then not.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

@Nighty the Mighty 

In regards to Satan, that actually isn't contradictory. Hellblazer makes it very clear that Lucifer Morningstar =/= Satan, and Lucy even cameos on it.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

@TobiSan

You have bad reading comprehension if you came out of The Infinity Finale thinking TOAA isn't Omniscient in that story.

You also have bad reading comprehension if you are so hot and bothered about Elaine calling herself Omnipotent, but showing limits. Omnipotence gets tossed around in comics all the time, with peps like Galactus and Odin receiving the term. Omnipotence in Elaine's context just probably means "I'm so far above everyone else in raw power than nothing can challenge or hurt me."


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Death of the Endless was originally true death, the Nekron thing was a retcon by whoever was writing during Blackest Night (fuck if I remember this, geoff johns I guess?) because at the time there was a big push by DC higher ups to fold all of their popular vertigo titles more explicitly into the mainstream DC universe.
> 
> Yes, if you go back, Sandman has allusions to other bits of the DC universe but for the most part it takes place in its own little world, as do a lot of other vertigo titles, that's why there's so much conflict between Constantine and Sandman/Lucifer on how Hell works, who satan is, etc.
> 
> Gaiman later came out and said that he hadn't intended for Death to work that way and still thought of her as the supreme "aspect" of death but it's debatable whether the DC retcon supersedes this as the true company policy or not since I believe they own the character and not him. That said, most subsequent portrayals have been in line with Gaiman's intentions so that answers that imo.



Sandman starts with Morpheus being stuck on DC Earth. Him being stuck there gave powers to Sandman in DC, the hero. It was both explained in DC and Sandman. Sandman has featured more DC characters. Lucifer also has been to Source Wall in his own comic book and met with Spectre.

Sandman is directly connected to DC, something Gaiman later regretted because he thought heroes don't fit his style of storytelling.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @TobiSan
> 
> You have bad reading comprehension if you came out of The Infinity Finale thinking TOAA isn't Omniscient in that story.
> 
> You also have bad reading comprehension if you are so hot and bothered about Elaine calling herself Omnipotent, but showing limits. Omnipotence gets tossed around in comics all the time, with peps like Galactus and Odin receiving the term. Omnipotence in Elaine's context just probably means "I'm so far above everyone else in raw power than nothing can challenge or hurt me."



She also had claimed to be Omniscient and Omnipresent multiple times.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Omnipresence is a fact. That was literally shown through feats in Lucifer Vol 1.

Omniscience in this case is Nigh-Omniscience. Knowing everything except the minds of comparable beings.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Yahweh / Elaine has immense Raw Power, far above any other real character in DC Comics, they have Omnipresence and Nigh-Omniscience.

So simple.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 1, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Death of Endless was first one of many aspects of Death, she appeared in Captain Atom.



Let's return to your original claim shall we:



TobiSan said:


> Death of Endless was first on Nekron level, being one of the many aspects of Death, she was compassion IIRC. Then Neil Gaiman rebooted her to be a powerful abstract. After writing Sandman, Neil Gaiman regretted that he made Sandman canon to Pre52.



Except wait a minute, Death was a character written originally by Gaiman who first appeared (and whose domain was well established) in '89 and this captain atom arc was from 1990 while Sandman was ongoing.

So no, death was not "rebooted" and certainly has never represented anything like "compassion" for pretty much all of her entire publication history.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> @Nighty the Mighty
> 
> In regards to Satan, that actually isn't contradictory. Hellblazer makes it very clear that Lucifer Morningstar =/= Satan, and Lucy even cameos on it.



This is retroactive, at the time, Ennis had fully intended for the character introduced to be Lucifer, it was happenstance that Gaiman was also using the character in Sandman: Season of Mists. This continuity snag is my entire point in that post, Vertigo was a series of relatively self contained works each in their own little bubble, they didn't really consult each other on how continuity would work between say Hellblazer and Sandman, or Swamp Thing and Sandman so sometimes they ran into quite major discrepancies such as who exactly the ruler of hell is. It was only when this kind of thing went wrong that they were basically forced to go communicate about it and iron out the details.



TobiSan said:


> Sandman starts with Morpheus being stuck on DC Earth. Him being stuck there gave powers to Sandman in DC, the hero. It was both explained in DC and Sandman. Sandman has featured more DC characters. Lucifer also has been to Source Wall in his own comic book and met with Spectre.
> 
> Sandman is directly connected to DC, something Gaiman later regretted because he thought heroes don't fit his style of storytelling.



Learn to read lol, I never said Sandman isn't canonical to the pre-crisis universe, I said:



Nighty the Mighty said:


> Yes, if you go back, Sandman has allusions to other bits of the DC universe but for the most part it takes place in its own little world, as do a lot of other vertigo titles, that's why there's so much conflict between Constantine and Sandman/Lucifer on how Hell works, who satan is, etc.



I didn't say The Sandman literally takes place in its own setting

Reactions: Like 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

@Nighty the Mighty 

Fair enough about it being retroactive clarifications.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThunderCunt (Dec 1, 2016)

If you put PR Beyonder in battle, the only people who can realisticaly fight him are Omnipotent/Omniscient level beings. And probably at that power level it is pretty much a stalemate. Neither brothers can be killed or erased from existence nor can they do the same to Beyonder. 
That being said Lucifer might be most intelligent character I have come across(inb4 some says batman) and he has his own creation sitting parallel to the Presence. Not to mention, he hardly fights with powers, his tools are plotting scheming and manipulating things to win.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm not arguing about void being above Yahweh but void concept always existed in DC . 

Void is the definition of infinite nothingness from which creations are born . So basically TOAA and The Presence shapes their respective creations of it .


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 1, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> First you start making things up about what I say and then you start posting out of context scans.
> 
> 1. I only claimed Lucifer to be street level when he was powerless
> 
> ...


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Lucifer at his weakest is comparable to Archangels such as Raphael and Metatron.

In DC, we have angels such as Amodel and Zauriel being comparable, if not superior to Superman.

We have two angels, Remiel and Duma, being capable of rulling over all of Hell, which includes the Universal Demon Lords.

Raphael stomped the Universal+ Azazel, who is the second most powerful demon in hell, and depowered Lucifer fought against him.

Depowered Lucifer can also exist outside of all Space and Time and fly through Multiverses and Dimensions at immeasurable speeds.

Street Level my ass.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Let's return to your original claim shall we:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While it's true that Gaiman created The Endless, he didn't fully establish Death prior to Captain Atom #42, where it was shown that Nekron is the Ultimate Death. Death existed in DC before Gaiman came long with Death of Endless. Until he rebooted Death of Endless being the ultimate Death as seen in Action Comics ~#899


You said "Yes, if you go back, Sandman has allusions to other bits of the DC universe but for the most part it takes place in its own little world, as do a lot of other vertigo titles" Which is untrue because Sandman directly takes place inside DC Multiverse.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> Yahweh / Elaine has immense Raw Power, far above any other real character in DC Comics, they have Omnipresence and Nigh-Omniscience.
> 
> So simple.


Elaine Belloc is Omnipotent actually.



ThunderCunt said:


> If you put PR Beyonder in battle, the only people who can realisticaly fight him are Omnipotent/Omniscient level beings. And probably at that power level it is pretty much a stalemate. Neither brothers can be killed or erased from existence nor can they do the same to Beyonder.
> That being said Lucifer might be most intelligent character I have come across(inb4 some says batman) and he has his own creation sitting parallel to the Presence. Not to mention, he hardly fights with powers, his tools are plotting scheming and manipulating things to win.




Batman isn't even the most intelligent being on DC Earth.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Lucifer at his weakest is comparable to Archangels such as Raphael and Metatron.
> 
> In DC, we have angels such as Amodel and Zauriel being comparable, if not superior to Superman.
> 
> ...



Powerless Lucifer needed help to travel between dimensions. I don't see how traveling through universes and dimensions makes you more than a street leveler? Powerless Lucifer is nigh-featless anyway.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

>Fights a guy who stomped a Universal+

> Flies to The Void outside all creation by himself, and can comprehend it's timeless, inapplicable nature

>Nigh-Featless

Kay.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Lucifer chanted a spell onto the shard and stated that it was made to destroy Azazel.


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> >Fights a guy who stomped a Universal+
> 
> > Flies to The Void outside all creation by himself, and can comprehend it's timeless, inapplicable nature
> 
> ...



- That was hardly a fight.
- A lot of characters have been to Void, nothing special about it.
- He is nigh featless


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

If you say that he is, alright. Who am I to go with the feats shown in the comic of him taking hits by Archangel level people?


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 1, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Because Elaine Belloc also claims to be Omnipotent and then not and then again and then not and then again and then not.


You can NEVER prove someone is Omnipotent, in fact, you can't even prove someone isn't, someone calling themselves or others Omnipotent doesn't mean they are

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 1, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> You can NEVER prove someone is Omnipotent, in fact, you can't even prove someone isn't, someone calling themselves or others Omnipotent doesn't mean they are


Same can be said about TOAA, then there aren't any Omnipotents. That would mean a debate between characters like Presence and TOAA would never end so people just call them Omnipotents for the sake it.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> If you say that he is, alright. Who am I to go with the feats shown in the comic of him taking hits by Archangel level people?


Show me those Arch Angel destroying Universes with physical attacks and I will accept your arguments.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 1, 2016)

My understanding the Presence, GEB, the Source, etc are aspects of the Overmonitor (writers)
Like the Phantom stranger and Spectre are aspects of the Presence.
The Presence representing the Overmonitor conscious.


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## Solar (Dec 1, 2016)

It's super unlikely that Marvel and DC have cosmology of the same size. Just investigate them and that will tell you all you need to know about those two "Omnipotents."


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 1, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Which lucifer?the 2000 one?


Yeha. Is there another?


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## Toaa (Dec 1, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> Yeha. Is there another?


Isnt there a 2016 one?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

The 2016 is the sequel m8.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

Powerscaling for DC Archangels:

Demons such as Trigon have Universal Feats, and Trigon was said by the Monitor to be on the same Tier of power as The Spectre.


DC Odin can create a universe and hold it in his hand:




Azazel *far* outclasses every single Pagan God portrayed in the _Season of Mists_ storyline. And he is also one of the Triumvirate of Hell, meaning he gets powerscaling from every lesser demon. Unlike Beelzebub he is actually powerful and a threat.

Angels live in the Silver City in heaven, which is a higher world above the regular Universe / Multiverse.




The Pagan Gods are in awe of this pair of Angels:



Raphael killing Azazel:



Depowered Lucifer surviving hits from a bloodlust Raphael:



Regular Archangels are easily Universal+.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 1, 2016)

in terms of a tierlist..in which tier would trigon chill at with his spectre-comparable power? mid tier? high tier?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm assuming he doesn't scale to Full Power Multiversal+ Spectre, simply to Spectre's Universal Feats.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 1, 2016)

Trigon exist in dimension  where million of universes colliding in and around them


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 1, 2016)

oi thats neat


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## GOATing Onem Folks (Dec 1, 2016)

randomsurfer said:


> If Elaine is equal to the presence, doesn't that mean that the Presence is no longer omnipotent? Doesn't make sense to have two omnipotent beings in the same comic if being omnipotent means being the strongest.



Presence abandoned his post and Elaine took over. Just like Lucifer abandoning his and Mazikeen taking over.



Nighty the Mighty said:


> This doesn't mean that at all.
> 
> Throwing something into the Void and then retrieving it doesn't imply that the presence is >the void



The very idea of PS was erased on a conceptual level. His story was erased just like Mandrakk and MAndrakk was never mentioned again as he didnt exist after falling into the Overvoid. Same thing happened to PS, he was erased from continuuity and yet Presence was able to effortlessly bring him back. 

Theres nothing to suggest Overvoid>Presence.


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## GOATing Onem Folks (Dec 1, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> My understanding the Presence, GEB, the Source, etc are aspects of the Overmonitor (writers)
> Like the Phantom stranger and Spectre are aspects of the Presence.
> The Presence representing the Overmonitor conscious.



Source is an aspect of Presence, his intelligence and allknowing.

Source cant be an aspect of OVermonitor, Multiversity already established theyre two separate



Overmonitor (void), Source (Presences' allknowing) and Unknowable (paradox) are all that exists there.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> And The Presence isn't Omnipotent guys:
> 
> 
> 
> And NO, this is not a 4th Wall break. People asked the writer and he clarified in detail.






> This can't happen to you and you continue being Omnipotent.
> 
> Neither can this:
> 
> ...



Presence is omnipotent within the story. Youre using literally outside forces as in writers to justify he isnt. By that logic no fictional character is omnipotent. Other fiction doesnt get as metatextual as DC does specially with all the Morrison shit.

And Presence being shaped refers to the dreams of others depicting him in different ways. Thats been explained over and over. Hes still one in the same omnipotent being. In DC the one God is envisioned as different through different ppl, different religions, different beliefs but in the end its the same person. Mike Carey explains that right there LMFAO, what dont u get?

Theres one race of Gods and the Presence is the omnipotent God that no one is above. Grant Morrison himself has explained the Jeudo Christian God (i.e Presence) is essentially the Big Daddy of the stories but interpretted in different ways.

Its explained in Spectre as well. Michael Demiurgos is one of the supreme beings only being Presence/Elaine and Lucifer. But as Carey said through the minds of sentient beings across universe, making God in our own image. Hindus see Michael as Kali, literally the same person but shaped by dreams of different ppl in a different belief system explaining the exact same character.



Presence has given all beings free will which allows them to conceptualize and shape his image in different ways. That in NO WAY suggests he isnt omnipotent.

Id wait until that shit series is finished to jump to conclusions. Real Presence could still be in the Overvoid as an abstract thought of himself (Source). There are simply too many questions yet to be making the conclusions u are off an unfinished series. Richard Kadrey  will be hopping on series in January lets see how it finishes.

Its been established that Elaine is omniscient, omnipresence and omnipotent already. Black's writing is terrible, shes already gotten alot of characterization wrong. She will not intervene against the Anti-God due to the vow she made to never interfere hence why she restored Lucifer's power. She could easily end it.

You need to learn to read between the lines your comprehension is terrible



> And don't forget The Great Evil Beast which is 100% equal to God:



Nope. GEB was an aspect of God and knew its time was over when God chose to absorb him. I already explained this and most of GEB's story. U posting scans u got from a  Comicvine thread isnt gonna change it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

You are blatantly lying, ignore factual evidence in the actual scans I posted, and still believe in the hoax that the Outside Forces are metatextual.

You don't know jack about what you're saying.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GOATing Onem Folks (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> You are blatantly lying, ignore factual evidence in the actual scans I posted, and still believe in the hoax that the Outside Forces are metatextual.
> 
> You don't know jack about what you're saying.



Nope. Ur reading comprehension is just bad or ur getting scans/statements from respect threads. 

You dont know what ur talking about here and cant refute anything ive said. 

Presence is omnipotent and above Overmonitor. 

GEB is evil aspect of Presence much like Source is allknowing aspect of him, Lucifer is Will of Him, Spectre is Wrath of him etc.

Read Multiversity and piece together the puzzle and itll all be clear. 

Its alot of paradox and metatextual text that explains it. Elaine for example is omniscient but ur not reading between the lines. Even an omniscient/allknowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite. If he/she could then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 1, 2016)

> Presence was willed by humans

> Overmonitor predates The Presence

> Elaine is only Nigh-Omniscient

> GEB is described as 100% to Presence.

kay.


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## Galo de Lion (Dec 1, 2016)

Michael was renewing all of Creation every moment. He alone could take it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## GOATing Onem Folks (Dec 1, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> > Presence was willed by humans
> 
> > Overmonitor predates The Presence
> 
> ...



>parroting debunked arguments with no counter

mmkay



TTGL said:


> Michael was renewing all of Creation every moment. He alone could take it.



Either could take it solo. Beyonder has more outright power than Lucifer but there's nothing he can attack him with that he couldn't manipulate himself

Plus in character Beyonder gets played like a fiddle to Lucifer's whim/will. No one in Marvel short of absolute omniscience is smarter, more manipulative or as strategic as Lucifer
And we saw in Secret Wars Beyonder giving his power to multiple beings because couldn't understand the concept of desire which is above him

Lucifer is already canonically above Desire of the Endless and all their concepts.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Thespacelord (Dec 1, 2016)

Living Tribunal should be around the level of either of the Brothers, so i don't think either of them could solo in a straight up fight.
Lucifer should be able to outsmart him pretty easily


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2016)

Thespacelord said:


> Living Tribunal should be around the level of either of the Brothers, so i don't think either of them could solo in a straight up fight.
> Lucifer should be able to outsmart him pretty easily


Nope, he is not


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## Thespacelord (Dec 2, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Nope, he is not


Living Tribunal is pretty much second to TOAA and his pretty much at the top of the multiversal scale
Michael and Lucifer are also massively multiversal beings? who are second to their God (who isn't even the Supreme Being in his universe)


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 2, 2016)

Michael and Lucifer are effectively The Living Tribunals of DC, yes.

Only The Presence, The Overvoid, and The Writer are above then.

Hell, they are above even Mother Night, The Embodiment of Existence and Nonexistence.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 2, 2016)

Thespacelord said:


> Living Tribunal is pretty much second to TOAA and his pretty much at the top of the multiversal scale
> Michael and Lucifer are also massively multiversal beings? who are second to their God (who isn't even the Supreme Being in his universe)



Presence was the Supreme Being of DC pre-Elaine Belloc, now Elaine Belloc is the Surpeme Being.  I haven't seen better feats from The Writer and Over-Monitor even though people keep claiming they are above Elaine. This is the only forum I have seen people take Over-Monitor seriously, nobody takes Morrison seriously.

Whatever Morrison says in an interview is irrelevant. Stan Lee stated in an interview that Galactus it he most powerful villain in Marvel.

Morrison alone doesn't dictate canon in DC. Presence as a character existed way before Over-Monitor and The Writer and has a lot more consistency.

LT is nothing like the brothers. Lucifer acts on his own with Multiversal+ power. LT acts whenever TOAA wants him to acts, not to mention all of his faces have to agree on the actions he takes. LT should be above Beyonder, but it looks like he isn't because of these limitations.

In his own fiction Lucifer is higher on cosmical scale because he doesn't have these restrictions.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 2, 2016)

Void predates God, kiddo.

And I like to think that the WoG of the Writer of the most relevant DC Event since Crisis on Infinite Earth does indeed matter. Presence displays many limitations and so does Elaine. The Void is the nothingness from which even God came into being.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 2, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Presence was the Supreme Being of DC pre-Elaine Belloc, now Elaine Belloc is the Surpeme Being.  I haven't seen better feats from The Writer and Over-Monitor even though people keep claiming they are above Elaine. This is the only forum I have seen people take Over-Monitor seriously, nobody takes Morrison seriously.
> 
> Whatever Morrison says in an interview is irrelevant. Stan Lee stated in an interview that Galactus it he most powerful villain in Marvel.
> 
> ...


There's a slight difference between Lee and Morrison tho, the guy who takes the credit vs a guy creates the work

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 3, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Void predates God, kiddo.
> 
> And I like to think that the WoG of the Writer of the most relevant DC Event since Crisis on Infinite Earth does indeed matter. Presence displays many limitations and so does Elaine. The Void is the nothingness from which even God came into being.


You just keep coming at me with your own agenda in 2 threads now, I haven't seen a single shread of proof from you except you trying to pass your opinion as facts. Other people in the other thread have pointed out already that you keep arguing through pages with no proof.

Presence hasn't shown any limitations.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 3, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> There's a slight difference between Lee and Morrison tho, the guy who takes the credit vs a guy creates the work



Don't tell this to all the MCU fans who take Stan Lee as some comic book God, Kirby is rolling in his grave.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 3, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> You just keep coming at me with your own agenda in 2 threads now, I haven't seen a single shread of proof from you except you trying to pass your opinion as facts. Other people in the other thread have pointed out already that you keep arguing through pages with no proof.
> 
> Presence hasn't shown any limitations.


You mean like when he effortlessly defeated the great evil beast?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 3, 2016)

People thinking Presence is limitless Omnipotent in 2016

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 4, 2016)

With a shitty Op concept like void you can never say that Presence is Omnipotent . Even if The presence can shape infinite Multiverses beyond dimensional scale or all of fictional realities  it would still be an Atom to the void .


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 5, 2016)

i just finished lucifer 2000 and the 3 issue 99 version, now started sandman

i simultanously read superman beyond / final crisis to get a grip on the overmonitor/over-void

my questions are for two of the people i take have the most knowledge on that matter

@TobiSan

@MatthewSchroeder

at the end of lucifer the presence and lucifer chill in the infinite and eternal void, where "creations" similar to the ones the presence / elaine / lucifer made pop out every second and one can follow their lifetime in the blink of an eye

now we also know that the creation the story takes place in is infinity (lucifers gate infinitely on every gate, every realm / elaine traveling through infinity etc.)

now the crew when it traveled to the mansion of silence came across some mirrors which apparently contained universes / rejected creations

so the presence seems to have created multiple creations - also underlined by the jin-een-mok who mentioned they existed since the creation before that one

now the question is:

does this mean that every creation in the void actually is a creation made by the presence? it cant be since lucifers is also part of it and when the presence and lucifer shared tea he mentioned about watching some new creations unfold.

how does this relates to the overvoid in the grand scheme of powerscaling?

how does this relates to the other major events like crisis on infinite earths. are these universes all just "creations" in the void or are they even just one creation?

how does this relates to the other, major continuum? new 52, rebirth etc.?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 5, 2016)

@RavenSupreme

The SilkMan is confirmed by Word of God to be from a  creation EARLIER than The Presence's.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 5, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @RavenSupreme
> 
> The SilkMan is confirmed by Word of God to be from a  creation EARLIER than The Presence's.


Thanks for this elaborated reply, all my questions have been answered 
 

Im trying to get a grasp on how to scale the different universes and stories into each other....


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 5, 2016)

For starters, not all creations are The Presence's. In the very beginning, The Presence had neither existed nor created anything. His is an existence shaped by the primal belief of a surpeme creator being, shared by all sentient beings in the Multiverse. Dreams are the most powerful force in the DC Universe, and through them we create our own Gods in our own image, though since dreams are outside the flow of time, from our perspective they always existed, even before we began dreaming of them.

The Overvoid, as explained by Grant Morrison, is the personified white page itself, the canvas of all possible and impossible creations of the writer, where anything can be formed and drawn. By definition, each all DC Comics' character or location would be beneath The Overvoid, due to it's truly infinite nature, and the fact that it is both a fictional entity / "location", and a 4th Wall-Breaking metatextual concept. The universe is a drawing on the Overvoid's canvas, the Multiverse is also a drawing, and so is God.

As for Crisis' and the major DC Multiverse...

Okay, think of it as in a Higher-Dimensional Superstructure.

This is the map of the Multiverse, as defined by Grant Morrison:


The Local Multiverse is the Orrery of Worlds, composed of 52 Brane-Universes. Brane Cosmology is the idea that our universe is tied to a brane, that is, a membrane, of a Higher-Dimensional Superspace, and this is the reason universes don't collide nor can connect with one another.

In the DCU, everything is String-Vibrations. It's Multiverse is a science-fantasy version of Superstring-Theory. Everything, from tiny objects to people to universes to dimensions are made of strings, and they vibrate in their own specific pitch and frequency and length. Every universe in the Orerry of Worlds has it's own vibration, and heroes like The Flash shift their vibration to match that of that universe and transport. It's also why time travelling is far easier in DC than Marvel, and why multiple timelines is far less of an issue.

While Marvel follows mostly the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum-Mechanics where every action created various universes, DC has their universes separated. Three Dimensional particles tied to a membrane of a 4th Dimensional Space-Time bulk, here called The Bleed. Inside this bulk, there are logically an infinite number of membranes, each with their own number of universes.

Things such as Crisis' only affect The Bulk. They don't affect any of the Higher-Dimensions, as they are outside of it and time. The 5th Dimension outside of all timelines isn't affected by any Crisis, nor is the Sphere of the Gods, or 4th World. It's left ambiguous which dimension the 4th World / Sphere of the Gods is, but either 5th Dimensional or a really High-End 4D structure makes sense. In Multiversity, it's stated that the 5th Dimensional of the Imps rotated around the Sphere of the Gods.

Regardless, The Sphere of the Gods is a conceptual higher-realm unbound by Crisis', where locations such as Heaven, Hell, the true New Genesis and Apokolips, and The Dreaming exist. The deities who live here are personified ideas, and are all larger than universes. Gods here are born in the Dreaming out of people's imaginations, and form their own realms, and these deities usually send physical Avatars to the universes' bellow. While there is say, a physical Zeus who interacts with Wonder Woman and the like in each Earth, there is a Higher, true Zeus who is beyond all Space-Time and is part of the Quintessence. Similarly with Darkseid and the New Gods, who have various emanations in each universe.

This Higher-Dimensional Creation keeps progressing through the 6th Dimension of the Cathesis, Limbo in all it's all-encompassing nature, and so on and so on until reaching Monitor-Sphere, the Highest Dimension there is, where everything that is bellow is treated as works of fiction. Beyond it only the Multiversal Source wall, which after lies The Source and The Void.

Usually when a DC Characters says they can create Multiverses, or destroy all existence, it only means The Bleed-Space, not the entirety of the DC Creation. So the universes in the Mansions of Silence are not other creations, but mere universes instead. Likewise, The Anti-Monitor wouldn't destroy all creation, merely all infinite physical universes.

Beings such as God, Elaine, Lucifer and Michael and the parents' of the Endless, however, transcend this structure of Creation entirely, and can form creations of their own. Call it Omniverse, call it a "Complex Multiverse", the "Totality of a Multiverse", call it what you will. But each Creation formed directly from the Void, specially if it's compared to The Presence's, will contain a similar superstructure of Higher-Dimensions.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 5, 2016)

gonna rep you as soon as i can again. thanks a lot, i actually understood nigh-everything.

very informative and it makes me curious to read more of this metaphysical shit. i digged that.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Orochibuto (Dec 5, 2016)

If Dreams are the most powerful force in DC, why isnt Dream of The Endless the most powerful Endless?

In fact, shouldnt he be above the Endless?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 5, 2016)

Apparently, Dreams themselves can be beyond Dream of the Endless himself.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 5, 2016)

How can dreams be beyond Dream of the Endless? That doesnt make any sense.

Is there any comic where dreams are stated to be beyond the superior Endless like Destiny?

Also, if this is true, was The Presence "born" during the Thousand Cats warp?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 5, 2016)

Not during the Thousand Cats warp, but in a far wider-scale warp involving every sentient being. At least that's what WoG says.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 5, 2016)

Im still a bit uneasy over dreams being more powerful than the abstract that represent them.

Is there any instance where dreams are shown to be above Dream or a superior Endless like Destiny?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 5, 2016)

Dreams creating Yahweh is one. Is weird, but it's the only explanation I have. Dreams at their full capacity are beyond Dream's control over them (???)


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## Orochibuto (Dec 5, 2016)

Well I guess perhaps Dream can control only a finite amount of dream power.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 5, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> If Dreams are the most powerful force in DC, why isnt Dream of The Endless the most powerful Endless?
> 
> In fact, shouldnt he be above the Endless?


Well Death is the only one who will outlast them all along side destiny.


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## Bad Wolf (Dec 6, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Also, praise and respect Elaine, The One True Goddess of Everything - Hedgehogs:


Hey, that's from the new series of lucifer, right? I read all the original series, It's nice to see her again


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## TobiSan (Dec 7, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> People thinking Presence is limitless Omnipotent in 2016



People make funny meme posts when they haven't shown a shred of proof through 3 pages because they don't have any in 2016 



Bad Wolf said:


> Hey, that's from the new series of lucifer, right? I read all the original series, It's nice to see her again



She got quite a lot of panel time in few past issues, she gave Lucifer back his former Morningstar powers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 7, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> i just finished lucifer 2000 and the 3 issue 99 version, now started sandman



Only cosmic entities I can remember being affected by New 52 were Phantom Stranger and Spectre.


Presence hasn't created a single creation unless you want to call Silver City a creation. Silver City is a small city in the Void where Presence sits on his Primium Mobile with The Host Army guarding him.

DC Creation was created by 3 brothers according to Lucifer's first series. Michael created matter, Lucifer created suns and Gabriel created patterns where evolution took over.

The second creation is Lucifer's creation he created to escape from Yahweh's divine plan. He later made it open for everybody by creating billions of doors across the Multiverse that led to his creation for people to escape Yahweh's creation after it started falling apart(DC's creation, why it's credited as Yahweh's creation I have no idea as Yahweh himself stated that the 3 brothers created it).

Third creation is Elaine Belloc's creation IIRC. All of them were put together as one creation by Elaine Belloc.


Grant Morrison hasn't read Lucifer or Sandman and made his own Gods and cosmic entities, so don't try to pull any strings between Superman Beyond and Lucifer/Sandman. Canon in DC between Vertigo and DC titles is non-existant, even Canon inside DC itself is non existant with Dan Didio pulling his shit.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 7, 2016)

Except Grant Morrison pulled from Lucifer's Void to create The Primal Monitor, and even he played around with Angels and the Silver City in JLA before. Saying Vertigo and main DC is separate is laughable, I could be here all day listing all the crossovers the two have had.


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## TobiSan (Dec 7, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Except Grant Morrison pulled from Lucifer's Void to create The Primal Monitor, and even he played around with Angels and the Silver City in JLA before. Saying Vertigo and main DC is separate is laughable, I could be here all day listing all the crossovers the two have had.


I have never said they are separate.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 7, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Grant Morrison hasn't read Lucifer or Sandman and made his own Gods and cosmic entities, so don't try to pull any strings between Superman Beyond and Lucifer/Sandman. Canon in DC between Vertigo and DC titles is non-existant, even Canon inside DC itself is non existant with Dan Didio pulling his shit.



Apparently you can't interpret your own posts.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 7, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Grant Morrison hasn't read Lucifer or Sandman and made his own Gods and cosmic entities, so don't try to pull any strings between Superman Beyond and Lucifer/Sandman. Canon in DC between Vertigo and DC titles is non-existant, even Canon inside DC itself is non existant with Dan Didio pulling his shit.



then why are there angels in Final Crisis and an explicit place for all the endless and heaven/hell in his map of the multiverse?

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 8, 2016)

GM idea of new gods dwarfing the universes is directly inspired by Neil Gaiman stories where they described gods like odin holding the universes


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## Orochibuto (Dec 8, 2016)

Whats the difference between the black Void that apparently predates the Presence and the white Overvoid?

Reactions: Like 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 8, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Apparently you can't interpret your own posts.


Apparently, this was the only post from me you read. I have 3 pages of posts here where I said they are canon. I explained the canon being non-existant I guess I should have put almost non-existant for you because how much fuckery is in that canon.



Nighty the Mighty said:


> then why are there angels in Final Crisis and an explicit place for all the endless and heaven/hell in his map of the multiverse?


Heaven isn't Silver City and according to Elaine Belloc, hell shouldn't exist.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 8, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Whats the difference between the black Void that apparently predates the Presence and the white Overvoid?


They're the same . IDK about him predating the presence but it acts as a source from which all creations emerges and returns to it . According to GM even in Marvel and archie sonic the void exists as the source of creation


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 8, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Whats the difference between the black Void that apparently predates the Presence and the white Overvoid?



They're both the same thing. They are both The Void.

Edit:

Reactions: Useful 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 8, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


>


This is why I am saying that Morrison doesn't care about canon, he just does his own stuff. Heaven and Silver City used to be different places. Nobody is allowed into Silver City unless Presence allows it, it's the home for the Host Army.

Elaine Belloc also promised not to build hell after it was destroyed and she has been keeping every promise except there is somehow a fucking hell in both Morrison's map and the new Lucifer series.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 8, 2016)

wasnt it that elaine, after merging the creations, just decided hell should work differently?


TobiSan said:


> This is why I am saying that Morrison doesn't care about canon, he just does his own stuff. Heaven and Silver City used to be different places. Nobody is allowed into Silver City unless Presence allows it, it's the home for the Host Army.
> 
> Elaine Belloc also promised not to build hell after it was destroyed and she has been keeping every promise except there is somehow a fucking hell in both Morrison's map and the new Lucifer series.


wasnt it because she only took over the current creation where hell already existed?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 8, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> This is why I am saying that Morrison doesn't care about canon, he just does his own stuff. Heaven and Silver City used to be different places. Nobody is allowed into Silver City unless Presence allows it, it's the home for the Host Army.



that's the exact description given though

also fairly sure its said that Elaine remakes "hell" in a different way, the function is still pretty much essential to how the world works. Even after Lucifer (the series I mean) finishes, Morrison is definitely not the first person to mention Hell existing in the DC universe. The Map of the multiverse is from late 2014, early 2015 and before that as early as 2009 you have writers featuring it prominently in other DC works.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 8, 2016)

At this point @TobiSan is grasping at even more straws than they usually do.

All to maintain his "accurate" ranking of Lucifer's power... _Snickers_


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## Orochibuto (Dec 8, 2016)

I was doing some research and found a comic where Dream of the Endless outright says dreams > all the Endless.

So it seems Matthew was correct.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 8, 2016)

Huh, didn't know that. What issue was it?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 8, 2016)

Sandman Overture 6



He needs to gather the power of one thousand dreamers to undo something that was destroying the universe, meaning that the power of one thousand dreamers can do things he cant by himself.

He also states that dreams and only dreams can define reality and specifically mentions Destiny and Death as uncapable of doing it.

Since all Endless can warp reality in a massive scale, he seems to be talking about a more fundamental level of reality warping.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 8, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Sandman Overture 6
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no lol

he's talking about how the Endless work.

Obviously there's seven endless right, Death, Destiny, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Despair, Delirium, we all understand this much just by definition of what the Endless are. Now lets step a little further beyond, what do the Endless actually do? Well again, this is very intuitive, Death is Death, Destiny is Destiny and so on. Now here's something you might not know, the Endless kind of have limited control over their opposites as well. Death is also Life, Destruction is also Creation and Dream is also...? Well within Sandman Dreams realm is basically defined as "things which don't exist in reality" so the opposite of this is "things that do exist in reality." No doubt you see the connection between what you just posted and what I'm talking about now.

None of the Endless are "more powerful" than each other, that's counter-intuitive, they're siblings that represent fundamental aspects of reality and sentient life. It all depends on your frame of reference. Even Dream may die, so Death>Dream? But death is defined by fate so Destinty>Death? but destiny is irrelevant in the face of your dreams so Dream>Destiny? There's not a true answer here, if you value Dream's powers more then Dream is the strongest but each of his Siblings have hold over him and he over them.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 9, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @RavenSupreme
> 
> The SilkMan is confirmed by Word of God to be from a  creation EARLIER than The Presence's.


I think he was referring to Synnar


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## Seraphiel (Dec 9, 2016)

@RavenSupreme once you're done wasting your time with comics go read the Felix Castor books Carey wrote for some good shit


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 9, 2016)

@Nighty the Mighty 

Actually, Destiny IS established as the most powerful Endless.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 9, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @Nighty the Mighty
> 
> Actually, Destiny IS established as the most powerful Endless.



I might be wrong ofc but I don't recall this ever being shown 

Death clearly supersedes Destiny in some areas, that much is canonical because we know she's the last to remain at the end of the universe -> the book and destiny die before she does.

Destiny also doesn't know why Delight turned into Delirium iirc


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 9, 2016)

It's in relation to Lucifer Morningstar.

Dream of the Endless craps his pants when near him, Death admits that she has no grasp over Lucifer, but Destiny is the only not to be intimidated by him and Lucy fails to fully burn some pages of the Book of Destiny.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 9, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Dream of the Endless craps his pants when near him, Death admits that she has no grasp over Lucifer, but Destiny is the only not to be intimidated by him and Lucy fails to fully burn some pages of the Book of Destiny.



the book is kind of a different deal, the book is written by Yahweh

Destiny is the book but at the same time he's not the book.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 9, 2016)

I dunno then?

But I always viewed their different approach towards Lucy as good indication.


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## TobiSan (Dec 9, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> At this point @TobiSan is grasping at even more straws than they usually do.
> 
> All to maintain his "accurate" ranking of Lucifer's power... _Snickers_


I haven't even been talking about Lucifer these past few posts, what the fuck are you talking about? 
If you want to be mad at me start by refuting my points instead of making these useless posts you like to do.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 9, 2016)

None of the Endless are more powerful than the other but Death will be last concept to exist, read Books of Magic which inspired Harry Potter.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 9, 2016)

Destiny has a high purpose in that Destiny is handwritten by Yahweh but I don't believe that this necessarily empowers him over his siblings, tho I could be wrong if something more material arises.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 9, 2016)

I know that Death will be the one to outlive them all, but not because she is the most destructive in power or reality warping, but because she IS death, which means that she can eventually anyone (but God and Demiurges)

@TobiSan 

I clearly succeed in triggering you, tho


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## TobiSan (Dec 9, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> I know that Death will be the one to outlive them all, but not because she is the most destructive in power or reality warping, but because she IS death, which means that she can eventually anyone (but God and Demiurges)
> 
> @TobiSan
> 
> I clearly succeed in triggering you, tho



How did my reply have any triggering? You are taking Forum replies too seriously bro, I am going to see my best friend soon and we are going to have beers, I couldn't be happier right now.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Orochibuto (Dec 9, 2016)

Even if we take the "no endless is above the other" interpretation and give Dream of The Endless power over reality as its opposite.

The fact remains that Dream even with his multiversal reality warping couldnt undo the damage by himself and needed the power of 1000 dreamers to do it.

Also the warp was so powerful Dream could barely handle it and was damaged by it.

So in indeed this seems to confirm that dreams themselces > The Endless.

Which makes perfect sense if you consider the fact these are the External Forces that shaped The Presence.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Orochibuto (Dec 11, 2016)

The entirety of the Marvelverse is a drop of water next to whats the Beyonder's ocean.

To see how insane it is, lets do a visual excersise.

Remember the Amalgan Brothers who each represented the totality of DCverse and Marvelverse? Ya know the guys who in their pre-retcon forms made LT look like an ant.

Imagine a brother so huge that next to him, The Brothers would look like a drop of water next to the ocean to him.

This is basically what the Beyonder pre-retcon is.

As such I dont see the angelic brothers beating him.

I see the Beyonder as the equivalent of The Presence minus the intelligence. A being that while not supreme is immeasurably above everyone else, including its "official" strongest ones, like the LT or in The Presence's case, the angelic brothers.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 11, 2016)



Reactions: Winner 1


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## Orochibuto (Dec 11, 2016)

Impressive. But I dont see that beating a guy that is an ocean compared to the Amalgam Brothers.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 11, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Impressive. But I dont see that beating a guy that is an ocean compared to the Amalgam Brothers.


... The concept of INFINITY is MEANINGLESS to Lucifer.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 12, 2016)

[CITATION NEEDED] said:


> ... The concept of INFINITY is MEANINGLESS to Lucifer.



So what? So it is to the LT. The Amalgam Brothers treat LT plus the Spectre as ants.

The Beyonder would treat the Brothers like microscopic organisms.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 12, 2016)

Seeing the Multiverse as a droplet of water only puts beyonder on new gods level . Lucifer and Michael creates what beyonder embodies either of them stomp him . \

PS : Beyonder isn't anywhere near presence level . The Presence , even though he isn't omnipotent can held the entire omniverse  from the void .

Even lesser abstractual beings destroyed the whole Multiverse including all planes of existence


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## John Wayne (Dec 13, 2016)

TheManWhoLaughs said:


> Seeing the Multiverse as a droplet of water only puts beyonder on new gods level .



He's definitely above that.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 13, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> So what? So it is to the LT. The Amalgam Brothers treat LT plus the Spectre as ants.


Citation


Orochibuto said:


> The Beyonder would treat the Brothers like microscopic organisms.


Citation


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## TobiSan (Dec 13, 2016)

TheManWhoLaughs said:


> The Presence , even though he isn't omnipotent can held the entire omniverse  from the void .



Presence is as Omnipotent as TOAA. Either Presence is Omnipotent or TOAA isn't Omnipotent either because I can also bring out contradictions for TOAA which refute Omnipotence.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Presence is as Omnipotent as TOAA. Either Presence is Omnipotent or TOAA isn't Omnipotent either because I can also bring out contradictions for TOAA which refute Omnipotence.


Then NEITHER ARE OMNIPOTENT. Omnipotence is a NLF anyways


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 13, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Presence is as Omnipotent as TOAA. Either Presence is Omnipotent or TOAA isn't Omnipotent either because I can also bring out contradictions for TOAA which refute Omnipotence.



Not going to disagree on that .


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 13, 2016)

No character in fiction is Omnipotent.

You're welcome.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 13, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> No character in fiction is Omnipotent.
> 
> You're welcome.


No character even _could be _omnipotent, unless they can make a rock so heavy they can't lift it, then lift it, in which case they are beyond logic and incomprehensible by us so trying to judge there level of power is literally pointless.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 13, 2016)

god man can

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Orochibuto (Dec 13, 2016)

TheManWhoLaughs said:


> Seeing the Multiverse as a droplet of water only puts beyonder on new gods level . Lucifer and Michael creates what beyonder embodies either of them stomp him . \
> 
> PS : Beyonder isn't anywhere near presence level . The Presence , even though he isn't omnipotent can held the entire omniverse  from the void .
> 
> Even lesser abstractual beings destroyed the whole Multiverse including all planes of existence



Beyonder is his own omniverse.

He is an ocean to a droplet of water to the entire Marvelverse, not just the local multiverse.

He is pretty much an Amalgam Brother but ridiculously more powerful.


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## TobiSan (Dec 14, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Beyonder is his own omniverse.
> 
> He is an ocean to a droplet of water to the entire Marvelverse, not just the local multiverse.
> 
> He is pretty much an Amalgam Brother but ridiculously more powerful.



Does he have any feats to back this up? All the feats I remember from him are just Multiversal, same as Lucifer.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Does he have any feats to back this up? All the feats I remember from him are just Multiversal, same as Lucifer.



The LT is beyond multiversal, he is the judge of the entire Marvelverse.


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## TobiSan (Dec 14, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> The LT is beyond multiversal, he is the judge of the entire Marvelverse.



Lucifer is also beyond DC's creation, I don't see how this proves that Beyonder is vastly powerful.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 14, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Lucifer is also beyond DC's creation, I don't see how this proves that Beyonder is vastly powerful.



LT is the omniversal judge.

The Beyonder is the embodiment of an omniverse so huge it makes Marvel look like a drop next to the ocean.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 14, 2016)

We go from multi to Mega to omniversal LT in just one page


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## Galo de Lion (Dec 14, 2016)

If we're taking biggaversal BS, DC has universe, multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, the Bleed, the Source and all the Spheres of the Gods and the Monitors. I'm pretty sure Lucifers Creation was just as big as the main one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 14, 2016)

TTGL said:


> If we're taking biggaversal BS, DC has universe, multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, the Bleed, the Source and all the Spheres of the Gods and the Monitors. I'm pretty sure Lucifers Creation was just as big as the main one.


It's more than that. As pointed out earlier,


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## GodheadPickleInspector (Dec 14, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> It's more than that. As pointed out earlier,


The Metaverse, based on its description alone, would already encompass infinite layers of reality by virtue of being an infinite hierarchy of parallel universes, making the Metaverse an omniverse (an endless hierarchy of reality would, by definition, contain sets of multiple infinite multiverses). There are units within the DC multiverse that transcend those infinite layers of reality, such as Limbo and the Monitor Sphere. Therefore, creating or destroying the totality of the DC multiverse itself is an omniversal+ feat.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 14, 2016)

TTGL said:


> If we're taking biggaversal BS, DC has universe, multiverse, omniverse, metaverse, the Bleed, the Source and all the Spheres of the Gods and the Monitors. I'm pretty sure Lucifers Creation was just as big as the main one.



Plus, Vertigo Comics mentions that Gabriel, Lucifer and Michael were the ones who began Creation after the Presence created them.

If you want a beginning for all the "dimensions/universes" contained with the Hypertime-Multiverse hybrid of the DC Multiverse, as well as the spheres above it, there is no other point to start than the original Big Bang itself.

Which kind of has a small spanner in the works, since Relic is a character that, in-universe, came from the version of Creation before even the first version of the DC Creation.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 14, 2016)

John Wayne said:


> He's definitely above that.


Remember the new gods we normally see are only fractions of their actual selfs. Darkseid actual size and power is multiversal+


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## TobiSan (Dec 19, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> LT is the omniversal judge.
> 
> The Beyonder is the embodiment of an omniverse so huge it makes Marvel look like a drop next to the ocean.



I still don't see how that makes him more powerful than Lucifer, all you are doing is throwing me words like The Omniverse which is just another word for Marvel's creation, Lucifer can shape DC's creation with a snap of his fingers just like Beyonder can change Marvel's creation.

LT is like Spectre, he is as powerful as his master wants him to be and they both operate on set of rules.

LT only acts when his master wants and LT's every face has to agree on the action they take. 

Lucifer doesn't have these restrictions, he does what ever he wants.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 19, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> I still don't see how that makes him more powerful than Lucifer, all you are doing is throwing me words like The Omniverse which is just another word for Marvel's creation, Lucifer can shape DC's creation with a snap of his fingers just like Beyonder can change Marvel's creation.
> 
> LT is like Spectre, he is as powerful as his master wants him to be and they both operate on set of rules.
> 
> ...



The Spectre is conditionally empowered by The Presence and couldnt beat GEB or Michael.

The LT is always at full power and can beat everyone in Marvel.

Also the sphere The Presence had in his hands was the DC Omniverse.

Can Luci reshape it with a snap of his fingers? Perhaps.

The thing is, the Beyonder would be to that sphere an ocean next to a droplet. The sphere would be an unicelular organism next to it.

I dont see Luci beating that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 20, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> The thing is, the Beyonder would be to that sphere an ocean next to a droplet.



This isn't a feat, that is just you posting nonsense.

Do you know what? Beyonder is like a droplet to an ocean like Lucifer.

I don't see Beyonder beating that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochibuto (Dec 20, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> This isn't a feat, that is just you posting nonsense.
> 
> Do you know what? Beyonder is like a droplet to an ocean like Lucifer.
> 
> I don't see Beyonder beating that.



Its not nonsense, that is literally the description of the character.


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## TobiSan (Dec 20, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Its not nonsense, that is literally the description of the character.



Description of a character is not a feat.


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## John Wayne (Dec 20, 2016)

Size isn't an absolute indicator of power.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 20, 2016)

John Wayne said:


> Size isn't an absolute indicator of power.


It's a minimum indicator of power. Name a planet sized being below planet level.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 22, 2016)

The reason why Beyonder was so much more powerful than anyone in the Marvel omniverse includung the LT is because he was his own omniverse and his own was an ocean compared to Marvel. So basically he was like an Amalgam Brother, except so much powerful that the Brothers would be microscopic organisms to him.

He was the TOAA of his world.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 22, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> The reason why Beyonder was so much more powerful than anyone in the Marvel omniverse includung the LT is because he was his own omniverse and his own was an ocean compared to Marvel. So basically he was like an Amalgam Brother, except so much powerful that the Brothers would be microscopic organisms to him.
> 
> He was the TOAA of his world.



And Lucifer is TOAA of his own world which he created, how does any of what you just said make him more powerful than Lucifer?

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Orochibuto (Dec 23, 2016)

The Beyonder was God. Kinda like The Presence, explicitly stated by the author.


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## TobiSan (Dec 26, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> The Beyonder was God. Kinda like The Presence, explicitly stated by the author.



Thor is also a God, I don't see how that makes him more powerful than Lucifer.

All you are giving me are vague statements and titles.

Lucifer was also called God after creating his own Creation, Presence called him a near equal.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 26, 2016)

gajoobwalrus said:


> Aren't Luci & Michael each individually more powerful than TLT?



No and I've never understood where that comes from, the Living Tribunal has omniversal scale feats and is dramatically superior to even infinity gauntlets and beings like Nemesis and shit...Lucifer and Micheal are by no means on that level..and I don't think anything in DC/Vertigo short of the GEB and obviously the presence is above the LT.

just because Specter and LT are referred to as peers by editors with no sense of scale or feats doesn't mean word of god trumps what actually happens on panel...consistently.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 26, 2016)

People should read up on Pralaya and Mother Night before saying that Lucifer & Michael aren't TLT level. Luci and Michael scale upwards from every being in DC short of The Presence, Elaine and GEB

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 26, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> People should read up on Pralaya and Mother Night before saying that Lucifer & Michael aren't TLT level. Luci and Michael scale upwards from every being in DC short of The Presence, Elaine and GEB



And you can show me feats any of those characters possess say in excess of Unicron and Primus then go up from there?

There's a difference between "scaling" and outright on panel high end cosmic feats and short of TOAA there's a reason the LT has almost always been considered the strongest character in fiction


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 27, 2016)

What even is TLT's best feat?

Lifting two Megaverses, or did he do something more impressive?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 27, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> What even is TLT's best feat?
> 
> Lifting two Megaverses, or did he do something more impressive?



there's that...and his whole reversing all the damage done by the IG casually and the view that any confrontation between those two would end everything everywhere.

there might be some stuff with Doctor Strange I'm forgetting but he's superior to every other cosmic in the MU minus the one above all


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 27, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> there's that...and his whole reversing all the damage done by the IG casually and the view that any confrontation between those two would end everything everywhere.
> 
> there might be some stuff with Doctor Strange I'm forgetting but he's superior to every other cosmic in the MU minus the one above all


You know Marvel better than I do but aren't there some others above LT like Beyonder and Molecule Man Pre-Retcon or Scathan? I guess you could argue that they're fractions or M-Bodies of LT but I've read that his M-Bodies are on equal footing with the real deal.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 27, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> You know Marvel better than I do but aren't there some others above LT like Beyonder and Molecule Man Pre-Retcon or Scathan? I guess you could argue that they're fractions or M-Bodies of LT but I've read that his M-Bodies are on equal footing with the real deal.



if you're going with pre-retcon jim shooter characters than understand the dude basically inserted his own suggverse style fanfiction character into marvel..the Beyonder (and MM for jacking his power and I guess Doom too) was supposed to literally be beyond anything inside the marvel cosmology even its omnipotent god..its why he got so much shit from everyone and why the beyonders as a concept have been chipped away at for the last thirty years...

so I don't generally count anything involving PR Secret wars because it was a clusterfuck..that produced a knee jerk reaction from writers that was so strong..they're still afflicting us with their take that's and its been a fucking generation since that dude has anything to do with marvel.

in other words generally speaking..the PRB and everything involved with it stands alone..and is a cluster fuck 

Scathan is..I donno..nothing supports Celestials being that powerful but that story...and one what if I think


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 27, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> if you're going with pre-retcon jim shooter characters than understand the dude basically inserted his own suggverse style fanfiction character into marvel..the Beyonder (and MM for jacking his power and I guess Doom too) was supposed to literally be beyond anything inside the marvel cosmology even its omnipotent god..its why he got so much shit from everyone and why the beyonders as a concept have been chipped away at for the last thirty years...
> 
> so I don't generally count anything involving PR Secret wars because it was a clusterfuck..that produced a knee jerk reaction from writers that was so strong..they're still afflicting us with their take that's and its been a fucking generation since that dude has anything to do with marvel.
> 
> ...


Beyonder gets more and more depowered these days until recently it seems anyway but it makes the most sense if the LT PRB was above was just an M-Body. I guess you do have a point though, Secret Wars 2 was just a mess and PRB was incredibly bizarre. Really though, I disagree on powerscaling LT's more powerful feats to PRB because they happened later like the aforementioned lifting 2 megaverses in his hand or stopping the IG from destroying everything. I don't even think it was revealed then that LT served TOAA but I could be wrong. I'm hardly an expert on Marvel so I could be talking out my ass.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 27, 2016)

TLT was revealed to serve God in 1989, if I recall correctly. In a Kubik storyline. It was also in that storyline that he was revealed to be the Supreme Judge of all Multiverses and beyond, rather than just one as it was always said up until there.

Really, the vast majority of the modern established Marvel Cosmology was developed in the early 90s in Storylines such as the Infinity Gauntlet.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 27, 2016)

People that are on equal footing or superior to The Living Tribunal on various storylines:

Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

The Protege and The Scathan

The Beyonders from Time Runs Out

HOTU Thanos (Granted, he was holding a fraction of The-One-Above-All's "Omni-Reality Powers")

Also, the new Living Tribunal was just killed by Order and Chaos.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 27, 2016)

Lets hold off on giving Order and Chaos powers comparable to the old LT...because that smells really fishy there's gotta be more to it.



Blakk Jakk said:


> Beyonder gets more and more depowered these days until recently it seems anyway but it makes the most sense if the LT PRB was above was just an M-Body. I guess you do have a point though, Secret Wars 2 was just a mess and PRB was incredibly bizarre. Really though, I disagree on powerscaling LT's more powerful feats to PRB because they happened later like the aforementioned lifting 2 megaverses in his hand or stopping the IG from destroying everything. I don't even think it was revealed then that LT served TOAA but I could be wrong. I'm hardly an expert on Marvel so I could be talking out my ass.



my point about Shooter's beyonder was that any attempt to categorize or compare him to other marvel cosmics or limit the said cosmics by their feats against him is a bit invalid-because by editorial mandate he was superior to everything within the MU- you're essentially analyzing shitty official fanfiction at that point...so it was more "While he's probably above on par with the LT I don't know if you really wanna use those feats in any capacity unless specifically debating secret wars era characters because they exist inside a bubble of clusterfuckery not seen outside of a Suggsverse story"

also going by Shooter's mandate you'd have to scale the LT's better feats unless you treat it the way the authors seem too which is a self contained thing


IE I wouldn't invest the time of day in it if I were you..

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TobiSan (Dec 28, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> No and I've never understood where that comes from, the Living Tribunal has omniversal scale feats and is dramatically superior to even infinity gauntlets and beings like Nemesis and shit...Lucifer and Micheal are by no means on that level..and I don't think anything in DC/Vertigo short of the GEB and obviously the presence is above the LT.
> 
> just because Specter and LT are referred to as peers by editors with no sense of scale or feats doesn't mean word of god trumps what actually happens on panel...consistently.




What feats does LT have that put him above Lucifer? Isn't Omniverse just another word for Marvel's Multiverse?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

How does Destiny containing the ENTIRE DCU within his book compare to TLT's lifting feat?

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> What feats does LT have that put him above Lucifer? Isn't Omniverse just another word for Marvel's Multiverse?



uhh no because marvel isn't a multiverse its a collection of thousands of them organized into megaverses which combined make an omniverse...hell part of G1 Unicrons backstory was that he ate a multiverse and him and primus spawned one in their battle.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> How does Destiny containing the ENTIRE DCU within his book compare to TLT's lifting feat?



it would depend on the circumstances of the feat and if Destiny had the same level of control over reality the lt had?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

, and exists through all creation as .

His Book   within it, and he can control it just fine, the reason he doesn't mess with the flow of destiny is because The Endless are observers, not gods.

Universe, it's a hell lot more impressive than just 2 Megaverses.

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2016)

the 2 megaverses isn't the upper limit of his power, guy has total control over an omniverse, the megaverses feat was him going "yeah dude you're in the big leagues now" it was showing off and he wasn't exerting himself nor was it the upper limit to his power.

what you're describing there is something weaker characters have shown in range

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

Does OBD even take the idea of an Omniverse as legit anymore?

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Does OBD even take the idea of an Omniverse as legit anymore?



you don't get to dismiss a canon thing because it doesn't measure up to your idea of cosmologies or physics -its a canon term to describe the metric fuckton of multiverses that make up marvel


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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 28, 2016)

omniverse is just synonymous for all of existence

throwing it out as a term doesn't mean anything, you still have to analyze the cosmology

marvel's is pretty huge, obviously, there's no disputing that


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

@

Agreed, which is why it pisses me off when people dismiss the size of DC Comics' cosmology because they simply call it "Multiverse / Creation", rather than Omniverse.

DC only has 3 "Multiverses" (Mainstream, Lucifer's and Elaine's), though what people often fail to understand is that a structure of infinite parallel universes is absolutely, infinitesimally small when contrasted by the full scale of such creations, so each of those Multiverses is well beyond the Megaversal+ scale of power. Some even argue each of those qualify for an "Omniverse".


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2016)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> omniverse is just synonymous for all of existence
> 
> throwing it out as a term doesn't mean anything, you still have to analyze the cosmology
> 
> marvel's is pretty huge, obviously, there's no disputing that



which is why it makes for an awesome short hand term...which is how I was using it 

edit- to use the Marvel term DC is most obviously an omniverse as well..but the ability to effect and mess with one does not put you on a being like the LT's level

otherwise Wanda Maximoff and MJJ would be


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

If you believe DC is an Omniverse, than Destiny literally is an Omniverse.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 28, 2016)

Been a long time since a thread caught my eye. If it wasn't for grad school and work, I'd participate in the discussion. But, I don't have time to continue that these days consistently. Nice to see some familiar and new posters around here.

Some things I will comment on:



Orochibuto said:


> The LT is always at full power and can beat *everyone* in Marvel.



The Beyonders race in the lead-up to Secret Wars killed the Living Tribunal. From a line by Thanos in 'The Infinity Finale' -- "Within you [Adam Warlock of an alternate universe] lies the essence of the Living Tribunal of your reality. It was never slain by Beyonders, as was my actuality's Living Tribunal".

So, not just the one LT, but every LT was killed. Save that one absorbed into altAdam Warlock.

On the battle between the LT and the Beyonders in NA#30 -- could be the multiversal LT taking on the Beyonders, or all the LTs joining into that one depicted LT, or we are only seeing one aspect of the battle of either interpretation --

Regardless, saying that LT at full power can beat everyone isn't correct considering that it was killed by the Beyonders.

The Beyonders were limited in the relation to time, only being able to experience things in a linear fashion, as Doom pointed out. And then they were 'destroyed' from the collective Molecule Man bomb.



Blakk Jakk said:


> You know Marvel better than I do but aren't there some others above LT like Beyonder and Molecule Man Pre-Retcon or Scathan? I guess you could argue that they're fractions or M-Bodies of LT but I've read that his M-Bodies are on equal footing with the real deal.



Given Thanos's line, even a LT M-Body was more than just a representation for appearance's sake. Especially given how empowered altAdam Warlock was.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> How does Destiny containing the ENTIRE DCU within his book compare to TLT's lifting feat?



You mean, as in lifting/handling the Book of Destiny?

Apologies for potentially misreading, but if that's what you meant -- when the Book of Destiny was separated from Destiny in the "The Brave & The Bold" storyline, the Challengers of the Unknown handled it alright. Don't remember if it was handled by the other parties fighting over it.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> otherwise Wanda Maximoff and MJJ would be



Given that there are What-Ifs for House of M, there is more than one HoM multi-reality-warping Wanda. A blink-you-miss-it panel during one of the Messiah storylines had listed at least one reality (AOA) where Wanda was already dead (later retconned to being inactive in a stasis tube in a later AOA storyline by different writers) and that it was affected by the "No more mutants" warp.

Reactions: Like 4


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

Not lifting the book, but being one with its contents and controlling / embodying the fate of it all, and being the backdrop for it's existence.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 28, 2016)

Eh, LT having multiple versions is a goof some writers make, Starlin has shown he's not upto par with stuff since the 10+ years he was gone from Marvel and he clearly has shown he won't care if he wants to stroke his 2 self inserts Thanos and Warlock(Warlock LT was hyped as more powerful than original LT). As for the Beyonders, Hickman used them as a plot device and beat them off panel once they served their purpose to setup his Doom and Reed conflict, Eternity is the Multiverse, not LT, LT is WAY beyond Multi Eternity but Hickman also had the IG break pushing a universe while never explaining why just because he needed it gone to force his plot then had Panther wielding one briefly to fight god Doom before losing. Al Ewing has said Beyonders are representing what is beyond the Multiverse, they are so big they cannot fit in the Multiverse if they tried so they need avatars IIRC. Recently in Ultimates, same writer has said that since the Multiverse is new, a new order is in play and used that excuse to have Order and Chaos off LT(for now).

As for LT, we have 238 Jaspers warping the whole Multiverse and Merlin(Marvel UK ver under Moore) separating all realities from the warp. 616 Jaspers is stronger than 238 Jaspers and Merlin. LT is orders beyond that. The UN which in Abraxas arc was retconned as Galactus' avatar/power was used in that same arc to reset Multi Eternity and Abraxas who was crushing multiple universes barehanded amongst others. In Uncanny Avengers Kang the Conqueror wanted to merge the Multiverse into one universe with Exitar's power, being fair Exitar rivals a whole Celestial host himself and we do not see him get to do it. A single Beyonder avatar stomped the entire Celestials at once, it took 3 to beat the LT.  I remember one X men TAS comic showing LT making the amalgam brothers and databooks(yes I know, take with grain of salt) saying he made them to govern a megaverse each. One comic has stated he governs different Multiverse clusters ranging from 3D to 4D Multiverses and so on but eh, 50 years of comics and most writers doing their own thing will lead to things like IG breaking to push a universe.

Classic Beyonder and MM have warped a whole Multiverse in a fight, post retcon the only changes were that all cosmics who lost were either avatars or illusions to speed up the evoltion of incomplete cosmic cubes Beyonder and MM, if we accept this then it took 2 incomplete cubes to warp a whole universe. Later Beyonder and MM merge to form Kosmos/fem Beyonder a whole cosmic cubed being while MM is spat out IIRC. Even ignoring that, another incarnation of Post Retcon Beyonder and MM have warped the whole Multiverse.

Omniverse is generally used for Multiverse+everything in it in the 80s Captain Britain stuff by Moore, later it was used to say everything to justify crossovers with different companies but it also became used for multiple multiverses/megaverses but that fell out of used(Beta Ray Bill Stormbreaker has an avatar of edltrich lovecraftian horror Astaroth proclaim she will absorb the universe, multiverse and even megaverses if left unchecked being possibly the last use in 2004 or such, a fraction/tentacle while there is a whole dimensional prison filled with full power versions of such but being fair they may not be suggsversal esque in full power).

Thing is some beings are beyond Multiverse by too much e.g Primal Monitor who makes DC Multiverse a speck, so terms like these become useful. LT, Lucifer, Thought Robot, Beyonders, Fulcrum Tiamut, Michael, God Elaine, Presence etc are way beyond a Multiverse, could blink and recreate it many times with ease(he has destroyed The Word casually, Michael survived going Multiversal boom just fine, Michael has spanked Spectre etc etc).

That being said, ignoring the low ends on both sides you would need God Elaine, Yahweh and such to beat LT from DC/Vertigo or atleast Michael+Lucifer combined. Lucy has a weakness like Jaspers that he cannot make things in void, Michael exists to give him material in such and he made his own multiverse with Michael's big bang.

Pre retcon Beyonder is too much though, terrible character and Jim Shooter's ego, they depowered him and crapped over him after Shooter left but the original one and MM is far too wanked and beyond the entire Marvel Multiverse combined(even MM was this and he was below Beyonder somewhat). Lucifer could win by talking down Beyonder, he's dumb and basically a man child.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 28, 2016)

Current LT would lose though if you take Ultimates 2/Ultimates because lol new Multiverse new rules.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 28, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Not lifting the book, but being one with its contents and controlling / embodying the fate of it all, and being the backdrop for it's existence.



Almost all. Besides Delirium's remark back in the storyline finding Destruction, the Challengers of the Unknown aren't covered by Destiny's book. The storyline in 'Brave & Bold' didn't satisfactorily explain why (IIRC, 'we died, we're somehow alive and now an exception'), but that's it was and why the Book was separated and sent to them. Nonetheless, IIRC, at the end of the entire revived series, the Book was back with Destiny with no word or acknowledgement or explanation as to why.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Eh, LT having multiple versions is a goof some writers make, Starlin has shown he's not upto par with stuff since the 10+ years he was gone from Marvel and he clearly has shown he won't care if he wants to stroke his 2 self inserts Thanos and Warlock (Warlock LT was hyped as more powerful than original LT). As for the Beyonders, Hickman used them as a plot device and beat them off panel once they served their purpose to setup his Doom and Reed fanfiction, Eternity is the Multiverse, not LT, LT is WAY beyond Multi Eternity but Hickman also had the IG break pushing a universe while never explaining why just because he needed it gone to force his plot then had Panther wielding one briefly to fight god Doom before losing.



Indeed.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Al Ewing has said Beyonders are representing what is beyond the Multiverse, they are so big they cannot fit in the Multiverse if they tried so they need avatars IIRC.



Was that in an interview or the series responses to mailed letters? Curious to read more into it.



Tranquil Fury said:


> I remember one X men TAS comic showing LT making the amalgam brothers and databooks(yes I know, take with grain of salt) saying he made them to govern a megaverse each.



The X-Men TAS comic, The Adventures of the X-Men, final issue IIRC. I haven't read the series myself, but that comic and its universe and how it ended has been 'popularly' cited (on forums) as being the continuity preceding the (pre Secret Wars) continuity of the Marvel multiverse.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Current LT would lose though if you take Ultimates 2/Ultimates because lol new Multiverse new rules.



Let's wait until the next issue confirming Adam-LT being dead, since the Order & Chaos attack was the last panel of the past issue.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 28, 2016)

Fair enough, will try to find that thing on Beyonders, it may have been Captain America and Mighty Avengers or New Avengers. Ewing has done more with them than Hickman. Belated Merry X mas CBG and just in advance, Happy New Year. Nice to see a post or two from you here.

Still laughing at Order and Chaos punking Warlock LT but most likely he is not dead and will return, he atleast gave a reason like new cosmic structure, most writers would not even do that and have LT  with no explaination or ignore him or give an excuse like in Chaos War why he should not step in and end problem.

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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 28, 2016)

The writer mentioned on his twitter that the following issues will explain the seeming oddities with the Cosmic Hierarchy. Most likely either TLT was depowered or Order / Chaos were boosted. Prolly both.


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## TobiSan (Dec 29, 2016)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> omniverse is just synonymous for all of existence
> 
> throwing it out as a term doesn't mean anything, you still have to analyze the cosmology
> 
> marvel's is pretty huge, obviously, there's no disputing that



DC creation consists of infinite Universe, how is Marvels "Omniverse" bigger than Infinite Universes?

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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 29, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> DC creation consists of infinite Universe, how is Marvels "Omniverse" bigger than Infinite Universes?


I'm not taking any sides on this

all I said is Marvel's cosmology is huge


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 29, 2016)

I haven't seen a person downplay a Cosmology so much ever since BeyonderGod insisted that SMT is a single universe.

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 29, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> DC creation consists of infinite Universe, how is Marvels "Omniverse" bigger than Infinite Universes?



You think the same doesn't apply to marvel? Pretty sure it does, or did no idea how badly writers took the hatchet to it now..



MatthewSchroeder said:


> I haven't seen a person downplay a Cosmology so much ever since BeyonderGod insisted that SMT is a single universe.



disagreeing with you, does not equate to irrational downplay I'm afraid...That's not how this works.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Dec 30, 2016)

Marvel omniverse or whatever the fuck they call isn't more bigger then the  DC . As they show in cannon crossover during amalgham brothers series .They're equal in structure . Marvel uses the  old philosophy such as infinite Multiverses or infinite megaverses as regular universes . Even 5th dimension beings are shown to embody the hypertime or the Metaverse in where infinite realities are spawned and created from every quantum moment and we have characters like Oblivion shadow who almost wrecked the entire hypertime . And all those universes are bubbles in the higher realms like 4th world and monitor sphere dwarfs all the realms and dimensions with in the regular Multiverse . To go even further DC has even showed an existence containing infinite dimensions or even a place beyond all the levels of space and time and there are beings who embody the existence as well as outer void  ( non existence ) .

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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 30, 2016)

@The Immortal WatchDog 

I'm not talking about you, but TobiSan for claiming DC is just an infinite Multiverse and that that is also larger than Marvel.


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## TobiSan (Dec 30, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @The Immortal WatchDog
> 
> I'm not talking about you, but TobiSan for claiming DC is just an infinite Multiverse and that that is also larger than Marvel.



When did I say DC is larger than Marvel? You keep saying things I supposedly said that I never said, you have done this a lot.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 30, 2016)

_"DC creation consists of infinite Universe, how is Marvels "Omniverse" bigger than Infinite Universes?"
_
Can you not read your own posts? You do a lot of that.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> No and I've never understood where that comes from, the Living Tribunal has omniversal scale feats and is dramatically superior to even infinity gauntlets and beings like Nemesis and shit...Lucifer and Micheal are by no means on that level..and I don't think anything in DC/Vertigo short of the GEB and obviously the presence is above the LT.
> 
> just because Specter and LT are referred to as peers by editors with no sense of scale or feats doesn't mean word of god trumps what actually happens on panel...consistently.


Where did you get this idea the LT is omniversal? He is far from it. He does not have a single Omniversal feat at all. so just stop IMW. I
As proven in this thread, with actual scans, both Lucifer and Michel operate on a scale of creation they are bound to the DC multiverse. LT is. Infact you won't be able to show me a scan of LT just saying " fuck Marvel Omniverse I think I just go create my own" up and walk out the entire verse as Lucifer did.
You think because he is above the IG and Nemesis it would take the Presence to beat him? Have you been reading this thread because you showing trump level ignorance right now with concrete feats in front of you.

Best Feat LT has is Megaversal+ he is below the only concrete Omniversal weapon the Heart of the universe. He much like the spectre gets his power and does the enforcing of the true Omniversal being the TOAA.The IG is not omniversal not even close.

I really won't go into the reason why some of you using Marvel cosmic ranking as way to downplay DC multiverse. Because I've explain it to death that DC doesn't use the words Omniversal or Megaversal to explain their verse. Its always multiverse which is the same exact shit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Eh, LT having multiple versions is a goof some writers make, Starlin has shown he's not upto par with stuff since the 10+ years he was gone from Marvel and he clearly has shown he won't care if he wants to stroke his 2 self inserts Thanos and Warlock(Warlock LT was hyped as more powerful than original LT). As for the Beyonders, Hickman used them as a plot device and beat them off panel once they served their purpose to setup his Doom and Reed conflict, Eternity is the Multiverse, not LT, LT is WAY beyond Multi Eternity but Hickman also had the IG break pushing a universe while never explaining why just because he needed it gone to force his plot then had Panther wielding one briefly to fight god Doom before losing. Al Ewing has said Beyonders are representing what is beyond the Multiverse, they are so big they cannot fit in the Multiverse if they tried so they need avatars IIRC. Recently in Ultimates, same writer has said that since the Multiverse is new, a new order is in play and used that excuse to have Order and Chaos off LT(for now).
> 
> As for LT, we have 238 Jaspers warping the whole Multiverse and Merlin(Marvel UK ver under Moore) separating all realities from the warp. 616 Jaspers is stronger than 238 Jaspers and Merlin. LT is orders beyond that. The UN which in Abraxas arc was retconned as Galactus' avatar/power was used in that same arc to reset Multi Eternity and Abraxas who was crushing multiple universes barehanded amongst others. In Uncanny Avengers Kang the Conqueror wanted to merge the Multiverse into one universe with Exitar's power, being fair Exitar rivals a whole Celestial host himself and we do not see him get to do it. A single Beyonder avatar stomped the entire Celestials at once, it took 3 to beat the LT.  I remember one X men TAS comic showing LT making the amalgam brothers and databooks(yes I know, take with grain of salt) saying he made them to govern a megaverse each. One comic has stated he governs different Multiverse clusters ranging from 3D to 4D Multiverses and so on but eh, 50 years of comics and most writers doing their own thing will lead to things like IG breaking to push a universe.
> 
> ...


Myth: Mad Jim Jaspers is omniversal

Truth: His warp had an unknown effect to reality that was spreading from galaxy to galaxy, universe to universe and was eventually a threat to the omniverse. Jim was unaware of this.


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## Chie (Dec 30, 2016)

Wasn't the Omniverse in Exiles just Alan Moore's re-branding of Marvel UK's Mulltiverse?


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## TobiSan (Dec 30, 2016)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> _"DC creation consists of infinite Universe, how is Marvels "Omniverse" bigger than Infinite Universes?"
> _
> Can you not read your own posts? You do a lot of that.



Where in this do I state that DC is bigger than Marvel? I saying that one infinite isn't bigger than the other infinite.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Dec 30, 2016)

@Chie 

The Marvel Omniverse is whatever the fuck the current writer thinks it is. It's one big nonsense.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Where did you get this idea the LT is omniversal? He is far from it. He does not have a single Omniversal feat at all.



From everything about the character ever, and the fact that people who are able to effect omniverses are woefully inferior to him? To the point where him just noticing they exist in a canonical huge deal?

Then again weren't you the guy that whined about FTL batman not being treated as anything but absurdity? methinks you're the least qualified to speak on such matters


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> From everything about the character ever, and the fact that people who are able to effect omniverses are woefully inferior to him? To the point where him just noticing they exist in a canonical huge deal?
> 
> Then again weren't you the guy that whined about FTL batman not being treated as anything but absurdity? methinks you're the least qualified to speak on such matters


Why whenever anybody who disagree with you back trace at 88mph to some past argument? I could do the same to you but that probably  would get this thread lock so I leave it at that . And no I never did mention FTL batman but feel free to post the quotes and nice deflection.

I asked you to show me an omniversal feat of the LT you are making the claims, you see in last 3 pages they provided scans for lucifer. Where are yours? But you see I know this schtick it's argue without any counter scan.


for the very fact you believe the IG is omniversal or a feat of the Lt that put him above Lucifer makes me think you are the least qualified to speak on these matters, or you're still living in 2008


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## TobiSan (Dec 30, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> From everything about the character ever, and the fact that people who are able to effect omniverses are woefully inferior to him? To the point where him just noticing they exist in a canonical huge deal?
> 
> Then again weren't you the guy that whined about FTL batman not being treated as anything but absurdity? methinks you're the least qualified to speak on such matters



You still haven't answered my 2 questions.

1. How is Marvel Omniverse bigger than DC's creation of infinite Universes?
3. How is LT above Lucifer?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Why whenever anybody who disagree with you back trace at 88mph to some past argument?



oh I don't do it to everyone, just people I know from personal experience have a history of biased reasoning and all that jazz and even then only when they say something profoundly stupid.


The Mad King said:


> no I never did mention FTL batman but feel free to post the quotes and nice deflection.



oh wait, you're right no that was Tobi-san 



The Mad King said:


> I asked you to show me an omniversal feat of the LT you are making the claims, you see in last 3 pages they provided scans for lucifer. Where are yours? But you see I know this schtick it's argue without any counter scan.



so you feel that mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff are superior to the LT then?

No, see because the feats in question I'm listing can be found on dozens of respect threads and I'm actually citing from personal knowledge that can be easily verified...one does not always need to flood a section with scans especially when that usually signifies a dependency on the work of other users 



The Mad King said:


> for the very fact you believe the IG is omniversal or a feat of the Lt that put him above Lucifer makes me think you are the least qualified to speak on these matters, or you're still living in 2008



I have never stated that the IG is omniversal like at all 

I said his feat of no selling the IG is a lot better than anything lucifer did in his series...that's about it 



TobiSan said:


> You still haven't answered my 2 questions.
> 
> 1. How is Marvel Omniverse bigger than DC's creation of infinite Universes?



Why the fuck do I have to answer a question on a claim I never asserted? In fact I'm pretty sure on page five I said both universes qualify as omniverses 



TobiSan said:


> 3. How is LT above Lucifer?



a little thing called feats..


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 31, 2016)

<space reserve for IMWD rant about something something 2011, and something something something your stupid but no evidence to back his claims>


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 31, 2016)

Settle down and remain on topic


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 31, 2016)

Next thread: 

IG vs Lucifer


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 31, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> Next thread:
> 
> IG vs Lucifer



LSM would win? A thing I've never said otherwise....



Nighty the Mighty said:


> Settle down and remain on topic



reading comprehension or lack thereof..serious bidiness

I'll address the troll tomorrow


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 31, 2016)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> LSM would win? A thing I've never said otherwise....



im just trolling you two and your constant back and forth. not taking any side for now


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## Chie (Dec 31, 2016)

As much as I hate to agree with TMK he does have a point.

Adam Warlock (who became the new LT) did not have the power to create the universe he destroyed because the energies were too dispersed.






While Lucifer had no problem putting a universe together from pure energy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 31, 2016)

agree with TMK about what? No one is saying the IG is superior to LSM

only that its original form had its own creation feat on a smaller but comparable scale and she was still inferior to the LT


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## Chie (Jan 1, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> agree with TMK about what?


Adam (who became the Living Tribunal) couldn't reassemble the universe because the energies were too dispersed.

Lucifer created a universe from scratch, that's a lot more impressive.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2017)

Chie said:


> Adam (who became the Living Tribunal) couldn't reassemble the universe because the energies were too dispersed.
> 
> Lucifer created a universe from scratch, that's a lot more impressive.



that's the mother of all low end showings for the LT to the point where one wonders why you would even bring it up unless the one that replaced the old is so fucking pathetic that he can't do something as basic as one of his god damn jobs


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## Blocky (Jan 1, 2017)

That reminds me how in that one what-if issue where people downplay LT for not saving the universe from a being weaker then him.


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## Chie (Jan 1, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> that's the mother of all low end showings for the LT to the point where one wonders why you would even bring it up unless the one that replaced the old is so fucking pathetic that he can't do something as basic as one of his god damn jobs


The Living Tribunal has never restored a universe afaik, this is the only time he tried to and he didn't succeed. Lucifer on the other hand would've succeeded.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 1, 2017)

Chie said:


> The Living Tribunal has never restored a universe afaik, this is the only time he tried to and he didn't succeed. Lucifer on the other hand would've succeeded.



he's overwritten the power of beings who can, then turned around and reversed their damage.  Characters dramatically inferior to him can as well, what you're claiming is absolutely asinine.


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## TobiSan (Jan 6, 2017)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Why the fuck do I have to answer a question on a claim I never asserted? In fact I'm pretty sure on page five I said both universes qualify as omniverses



"Living Tribunal has omniversal scale feats and is dramatically superior to even infinity gauntlets and beings like Nemesis and shit...Lucifer and Micheal are by no means on that level"

This is what you said, Lucifer is Multiversal. So let me ask you another question, how is Multiversal Lucifer below Omniversal LT? Both can shape infinities.

So yes you implied that DC Multiverse of infinite Universes is smaller than Marvel's Omniverse or otherwise you wouldn't have low balled Lucifer like that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Jan 31, 2017)

Cosmic armor superman stomps beyonder


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 31, 2017)

Hey you.

Shut up.

And leave.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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