# Sasuke and Itachi vs Kabuto



## Siema (Apr 9, 2013)

Location:
Cave

Intel:
Full

Restrictions:
Izanami
Edo Tensei

Intent:
Both sides are going for the kill now.

Kabuto starts in SM.


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## Krippy (Apr 9, 2013)

Which version of the bros. is this? same as canon?

If so, then they rape him with little difficulty


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## IchLiebe (Apr 9, 2013)

Kabuto uses  the light jutsu(can't remember atm) to paralyze, Muki Tensei to finish it off.


Kabuto wins easily, he has Karin's healing abilities, Suigetsu's waterbody, and Juugos' chakra.

Tsukuyomi-Sage sensing
Amaterasu- Slough off skin, heal.
Susanoo- Kabuto has gotten through it, Totsuka will just go through Kabuto.


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## Stermor (Apr 9, 2013)

depends on edo's.. 

kabuto will get hit by itachi as shown before.. but depending on the helping edo's the borthers will die... 

sasuke is again more a liability then an asset to itachi.. just like the canon fight..


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## Revolution (Apr 9, 2013)

^Edo tensei is restricted, so that won't work in this fight.

Sasuke wounds Kabuto before he can lift a finger.  Sasuke is fast and threw kunais at the beginning of the fight, with Itachi detered.  If he didn't deter them, they would hit Kabuto giving Itachi time to finish him off.


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## Stermor (Apr 9, 2013)

Bird of Paradise said:


> ^Edo tensei is restricted, so that won't work in this fight.
> 
> Sasuke wounds Kabuto before he can lift a finger.  Sasuke is fast and threw kunais at the beginning of the fight, with Itachi detered.  If he didn't deter them, they would hit Kabuto giving Itachi time to finish him off.



i was aware 

i rather doubt it.. it was more along the line of if sasuke attacked he would have gotten ambushed by kabuto.. 

 the rest of the fight sasuke never really managed to do anything usefull.. while he had to be protected.. 

no itachi can beat sage kabuto.. not going to be all that easy.. but he can.. while sasuke again is going to be a liability..


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## Senjuclan (Apr 9, 2013)

Bird of Paradise said:


> ^Edo tensei is restricted, so that won't work in this fight.
> 
> *Sasuke wounds Kabuto before he can lift a finger.* *Sasuke is fast and threw kunais at the beginning of the fight, with Itachi detered.  If he didn't deter them, they would hit Kabuto* giving Itachi time to finish him off.



1. Sasuke's wounding Kabuto will do what again? He can regenerate
2. Sasuke's fastest attack (his susano'o arrow) was fodderized by Kabuto. So, how are kunais going to work against sage mode Kabuto


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## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Sasuke's wounding Kabuto will do what again? He can regenerate
> 2. Sasuke's fastest attack (his susano'o arrow) was fodderized by Kabuto. So, how are kunais going to work against sage mode Kabuto



Indeed. 

Kabuto kills the Uchiha bros this time. Before he couldn't, Itachi was immortal and he needed Sasuke alive, this time they are dead. 

The bros. have virtually nothing that can be used to beat Kabuto. He's too fast and can tank almost anything if hit, and he's just too powerful.


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## joshhookway (Apr 9, 2013)

kabuto can solo them with Kayayu genjutsu and then Collapse the cave.


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## Big Mom (Apr 9, 2013)

Kabuto showed us in that match that he was far superior to the Uchiha Brothers. Not only did he managed to kill Itachi twice, but it was quite clear that without Itachi, Sasuke would have been finished quite quickly. Without _Edo Tensei_ regeneration, Kabuto can once again kill Itachi, through various means, then finish Sasuke off quite easily. _Muki Tensei_, _Chakra Scalpels_, are both viable techniques which managed to kill Itachi in the manga, so the feat can once again be replicated here. In addition to that, techniques like _White Rage _and _Tayuya's Genjutsu _both proved to be quite effective in stopping the brothers, with White Rage requiring Itachi to save Sasuke and Tayuya's Genjutsu required both brothers to break each other out. Kabuto is far to versatile and proved to be a perfect counter to the brothers, with his Sage reaction skills (dodging _Amaterasu_ and _Susanoo_ arrows), and Genjutsu immunity, not to mention his near immortality through his regeneration. The manga made it quite clear that without _Izanami_, the Brothers would have been defeated.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 9, 2013)

You would have to be high to think that Kabuto even has a chance here.

The brothers defeated him without killing intent, betting their victory on an incredibly risky and prep-intensive Jutsu that _neither of them had actually ever used before_.

They were also at a pretty steep disadvantage in the intel department, since Kabuto more or less knew all their big moves while they only got to assess his as he was employing them.

The brothers won't be falling for Mugen Onsa again- and even if they do, they've proven they can counter it.

Hakugeki didn't work before. It won't now.

Muki Tensei can be blocked by both of them, provided Sasuke isn't spacing-out like a 5-year-old in Calculus class this time.

They just have to hit Kabuto with the Totsuka no Tsurugi or an Enton weapon, which shouldn't be difficult at all between the both of them, since Itachi already proved he could keep up with Kabuto on-foot.

And I feel like I should also point out that shedding skin won't make a damn bit of difference with a sealing sword and/or Amaterasu projections sticking INSIDE Kabuto's body.

The Uchiha brothers rape figuratively and- if they were so inclined -literally. Either one of them has the potential to beat Kabuto individually, provided he isn't allowed to just cancel the summoning contract on Itachi.


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## Big Mom (Apr 9, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You would have to be high to think that Kabuto even has a chance here.
> 
> The brothers defeated him without killing intent, betting their victory on an incredibly risky and prep-intensive Jutsu that _neither of them had actually ever used before_.



Without killing intent? I disagree. Even though they were stated to want him alive, the techniques they used proved otherwise. They used Amaterasu on him, as well as firing Susanoo arrows and attempting to crush him with Susanoo's hands. That doesn't seem like they were necessarily holding back very much. The fact that they resorted to Izanami should be more hype in Kabuto's favor, no? You also have to remember that Kabuto also wasn't going for the kill, only against Itachi, and even then Kabuto knew he was an Edo Tensei and couldn't die. Kabuto wanted Sasuke's body, he wasn't going to kill him, hence why when Kabuto actually did use killing techniques, such as Muki Tensei and the chakra scalpels, it was all aimed at Itachi.



> They were also at a pretty steep disadvantage in the intel department, since Kabuto more or less knew all their big moves while they only got to assess his as he was employing them.



They weren't that knowledge deprived. They both had fought Orochimaru in the past, so they weren't walking in there dumb. They had a feeling of what they were to expect. 



> The brothers won't be falling for Mugen Onsa again- and even if they do, they've proven they can counter it.
> 
> Hakugeki didn't work before. It won't now.
> 
> Muki Tensei can be blocked by both of them, provided Sasuke isn't spacing-out like a 5-year-old in Calculus class this time.



Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they fail in blocking Muki Tensei the first time? And while it is true that Mugen Onsa and Hakugeki failed in their initial uses (though failed isn't a correct term. They succeeded, but not for long), with killing intent, Kabuto would take the time that the techniques provide him with, to kill the Brothers.



> They just have to hit Kabuto with the Totsuka no Tsurugi or an Enton weapon, which shouldn't be difficult at all between the both of them, since Itachi already proved he could keep up with Kabuto on-foot.



Kabuto dodged the Susanoo arrow, which is far faster than both the Sword of Totsuka or an Enton enhanced weapon. When Itachi and Kabuto clashed, Itachi only managed to slice off the tip of his horn, which would be a lot more difficult with a much larger blade, plus Kabuto has knowledge on the Sword. Even if they are both attacking him, together, Kabuto is versatile enough to outmaneuver them both. Oral Rebirth is just one of the options to escaping both of the techniques you named, in addition to using the Sound Five and Orochimaru to stop one or both of the brothers. 



> And I feel like I should also point out that shedding skin won't make a damn bit of difference with a sealing sword and/or Amaterasu projections sticking INSIDE Kabuto's body.



Assuming the attacks land.



> The Uchiha brothers rape figuratively and- if they were so inclined -literally. Either one of them has the potential to beat Kabuto individually, provided he isn't allowed to just cancel the summoning contract on Itachi.



I believe you are underestimating Kabuto greatly here. He out performed both of the Uchiha Brothers. Itachi isn't an Edo here either.


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## Seon (Apr 10, 2013)

The brothers rape him with low difficulty. Thy we're holding back to an extreme extent.


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## Stermor (Apr 10, 2013)

Seon said:


> The brothers rape him with low difficulty. Thy we're holding back to an extreme extent.



ye that is not really true.. they used all the attacks they normally used.. 

kabuto pretty much laughed all of sasuke's attacks off.. 

and itachi had to use a special one time only attack to take out kabuto.. while in this case it would be easier for itachi to win with totsuka.. but now he also has to worry about his own safety now.. 

really this is not so easy.. sasuke is pretty much useless, and itachi is goign to have his work cut out for him to take out kabuto..


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## Ersa (Apr 10, 2013)

The brothers curbstomp him with no difficulty.

Hakugeki is canonically countered by Itachi as long as he doesn't have his Susanoo up. Muki Tensei is blocked by Susanoo. And since the brothers aren't going to be so defensive, Kabuto is going to be on the run the whole match.

No one bar top tiers are taking Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke.

They spray the cave with Amaterasu and Sasuke manipulates it to catch Kabuto.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 10, 2013)

The brothers defeated him with little to no knowledge, and without killing Intent 


What do you think will happen now? Kabuto dies within the first 5 seconds , from amatarasu spam.


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## Remsengan (Apr 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You would have to be high to think that Kabuto even has a chance here.
> 
> The brothers defeated him without killing intent, betting their victory on an incredibly risky and prep-intensive Jutsu that _neither of them had actually ever used before_.





Bkprince33 said:


> The brothers defeated him with little to no knowledge, and without killing Intent
> 
> What do you think will happen now? Kabuto dies within the first 5 seconds , from amatarasu spam.





Rasant said:


> The brothers curbstomp him with no difficulty.



This is all some pretty gross underestimation of Kabuto.  Kishi made it clear that *neither* side could go full out, otherwise he wouldn't of had Kabuto or Itachi make a point of it.

Intent to kill aside, anyone who says the Uchiha Bros. easily take this needs to reconsider the events in the manga.  Both brothers started out in Susano'o, and ended up having their entire MS arsenal negated, with the exception of possibly Ama.  

Their main skillsets were essentially disabled and Itachi had to resort to an extremely risky technique, which involved having to tank numerous hits and setup time, just to subdue Kabuto.  The reason this was even possible was because of Edo Tensei.  Without immortality the Uchiha Bros are forced to play far more defensively.  And since their main defense, Susano'o, is countered by a variety of Kabuto's jutus...it's unlikely they can mount an attack unscathed.

As for Amaterasu....Sasuke used Oral Rebirth to shrug it off.  I don't see why Kabuto's regenerative abilities can't accomplish the same feats with greater success,  It's entirely possible he could even dodge it with Sensing+SM reactions, or block it with Bone Shields and environmental manipulation.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 10, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto uses  the light jutsu(can't remember atm) to paralyze, Muki Tensei to finish it off.



Itachi uses Susanoo and bats Kabuto away. Or just holds Sasuke in the hand to protect him while using the ribcage to protect himself from Muki Tensei.



> Kabuto wins easily, he has Karin's healing abilities, Suigetsu's waterbody, and Juugos' chakra



Dohohoho..



> Tsukuyomi-Sage sensing



Agree actually, if Kabuto doesn't do this he's super retarded.



> Amaterasu- Slough off skin, heal.



While he's using Oral Rebirth he gets Totsuka'd/Enton Blade through the face. He then dies.



> Susanoo- Kabuto has gotten through it, Totsuka will just go through Kabuto.



Yeah, it'll go through Kabuto and seal his ass. Or Sasuke will spam the everything with Enton Yasaka Magatama until there's nothing but flames and Uchiha. It's an enclosed space too, Kabuto won't have anywhere to go.

Itachi or Sasuke can solo this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Which version of the bros. is this? same as canon?
> 
> If so, then they rape him with little difficulty



Pretty much this.

We've seen how easily they cornered Kabuto once they went on offensive. Kabuto doesn't last 10 seconds.

On top of that, brothers also have the benefit of full knowledge, nothing Kabuto can dish out will work here.


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## Remsengan (Apr 10, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pretty much this.
> 
> We've seen how easily they cornered Kabuto once they went on offensive. Kabuto doesn't last 10 seconds.
> 
> On top of that, brothers also have the benefit of full knowledge, nothing Kabuto can dish out will work here.



That's not being cornered.  Kabuto casually reacted to the attack and laughed off his cosmetic change.

Kabuto also has knowledge.  Except this time he has intent to kill and instead of trying to capture them after their disabled, he'll just go for the kill.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 10, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> That's not being cornered.  Kabuto casually reacted to the attack and laughed off his cosmetic change.
> 
> Kabuto also has knowledge.  Except this time he has intent to kill and instead of trying to capture them after their disabled, he'll just go for the kill.



The exact same can be said of Sasuke and Itachi.

Except if they did that with Enton Yasaka Magatama, Totsuka and Amaterasu spammed everywhere the odds of Kabuto dodging everything are very, very low. And even one hit is going to kill him or weaken him enough that the Uchiha Bros can then kill him.


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## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

I have to agree with Remsengan.  Unless you can show by feats how the Uchiha brothers win this with low difficulty, you can't just bring up the fact that they weren't allowed to kill him in order to say with killing intent they do so since Kabuto was holding back on his end as well in addition to killing itachi 2 times and only beating Kabuto due to no knowledge on Izanami (which is not the ase in this thread).


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## Misaki Yata (Apr 10, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> The exact same can be said of Sasuke and Itachi.
> 
> Except if they did that with Enton Yasaka Magatama, Totsuka and Amaterasu spammed everywhere the odds of Kabuto dodging everything are very, very low. And even one hit is going to kill him or weaken him enough that the Uchiha Bros can then kill him.



The only one who can spam all those ms moves is Sasuke(unless itachi is edo).
Itachi struggles using amaterasu and tsukuyomi as it is.Since Itachi isn't edo he'll be more cautious on which move he should consider using.

Kabuto beats the uchiha brothers just by doing this.

Taking Itachi's stamina problem into account i doubt he can continuously use any ligaments of Susanoo since it eats up too much chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 10, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> That's not being cornered.  Kabuto casually reacted to the attack and laughed off his cosmetic change.


He reacted ? I swear I saw him get hit by that arrow. On the tail because they were trying to capture him. That arrow could have went through his forehead. 

He was simply helpless against that onslaught. Imagine that with killing intent, combined with Tier 4 susano'o & amaterasu.

He wouldn't last 2 seconds.



> Kabuto also has knowledge.  Except this time he has intent to kill and instead of trying to capture them after their disabled, he'll just go for the kill.



Kabuto had full knowledge except for Izanami which is restricted in this match. So it doesn't benefit him one bit. 
Also he went all out and had intention to annihilate Itachi.


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## Remsengan (Apr 10, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> The exact same can be said of Sasuke and Itachi.
> 
> Except if they did that with Enton Yasaka Magatama, Totsuka and Amaterasu spammed everywhere the odds of Kabuto dodging everything are very, very low. And even one hit is going to kill him or weaken him enough that the Uchiha Bros can then kill him.



Except Itachi was hit with jutsu that clearly impaled him or cut him in half.  Sasuke had to be protected the entire time.  There's a large difference between that and cosmetic damage.

Plus, Itachi isn't going to spam shit.  He hasn't the stamina for it.  SM/Uzamaki sensing + reflexes and regen should be more than enough to dodge Sasuke's barrage....if Sasuke even decides to spam.


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## joshhookway (Apr 10, 2013)

Remember when Kabuto used Dragon Orb, Sasuke was completely paralyzed. Itachi could barely put up a susanoo. Kabuto can play it safe and attack both of them with Cave Spikes.

Kabuto can also use genjutsu and then immediately bone forrest.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Apr 10, 2013)

Itachi soloes. Kotoamatsukami, gg


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## joshhookway (Apr 10, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Itachi soloes. Kotoamatsukami, gg



too bad itachi programmed it to only react to MS.


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## Ersa (Apr 10, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Except Itachi was hit with jutsu that clearly impaled him or cut him in half.  Sasuke had to be protected the entire time.  There's a large difference between that and cosmetic damage.
> 
> *Plus, Itachi isn't going to spam shit.  He hasn't the stamina for it.  SM/Uzamaki sensing + reflexes and regen should be more than enough to dodge Sasuke's barrage....if Sasuke even decides to spam*.


Edo Itachi has infinite chakra 

Kabuto can't bring out his big guns as quick as the brothers can bring out Amaterasu.

And he has not shown the feats to remotely suggest he can dodge two people firing Amaterasu at him, let alone Sasuke being able to manipulate it with Kagutsuchi. 

And I love the "but but he killed Itachi" examples. If you're going to deny they weren't allowed to kill him as proof the brothers were holding back.
>Itachi deactivated Susanoo for Izanami, no Izanami = Susanoo up = Kabuto fail blitz
>Full intel means he knows Kabuto will go for him with Muki Tensei not to mention Sasuke shouldn't be a bitch now and actually put up a defense.

They stomp him no difficulty.

SM Kabuto is powerful but without Edo Tensei he's no top tier. Only a top tier can beat these two in a 2v1 situation, it's as simple as that.


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## Big Mom (Apr 10, 2013)

Rasant said:


> And I love the "but but he killed Itachi" examples. If you're going to deny they weren't allowed to kill him as proof the brothers were holding back.



You also cannot deny that Kabuto was holding back. He wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, he wanted to take his body for himself. Therefore he was holding back not killing. That is why when Kabuto used techniques that could kill, he only used them on Itachi, to which they were successful in killing him.


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## Ersa (Apr 10, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> You also cannot deny that Kabuto was holding back. He wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, he wanted to take his body for himself. Therefore he was holding back not killing. That is why when Kabuto used techniques that could kill, he only used them on Itachi, to which they were successful in killing him.


You ignore the fact that
- Itachi deactivated Susanoo to prepare for Izanami, Izanami is not a factor in this fight so Kabuto won't be able to kill him using that trick.
- Yes Kabuto was holding back a little but he could kill Itachi and injure Sasuke, the brothers did not have that luxury. They
- Full knowledge means Itachi can protect himself with Susanoo from Muki Tensei.

And I say again 

*Kabuto can't bring out his big guns as quick as the brothers can bring out Amaterasu.

Muki Tensei, Hadugeki, his genjutsu. They all require handseals and a activation time. All the brothers have to do is aim at him and fire Amaterasu. 

And he has not shown the feats to remotely suggest he can dodge two people firing Amaterasu at him, let alone Sasuke being able to manipulate it with Kagutsuchi. *

It's a cave, he only has so much room to maneuver.

Brothers stomp him no difficulty.

Just waiting for the liquify > Amaterasu argument


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## Vergil642 (Apr 10, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Except Itachi was hit with jutsu that clearly impaled him or cut him in half.  Sasuke had to be protected the entire time.  There's a large difference between that and cosmetic damage.
> 
> Plus, Itachi isn't going to spam shit.  He hasn't the stamina for it.  SM/Uzamaki sensing + reflexes and regen should be more than enough to dodge Sasuke's barrage....if Sasuke even decides to spam.



Because he was protecting Sasuke and neither of them were attacking seriously the entire fight.

One Amaterasu and this whole thing is already basically over. To say nothing of Sasuke flinging Enton like a madman on top of this, or Itachi just y'know, protecting himself with Susanoo, limiting Kabuto's movement with Amaterasu and shanking him with Totsuka.

Itachi doesn't even have to spam shit. Using Amaterasu once or twice (that's all that's needed) and having Susanoo active for a minute or two is not spamming. Shit, he didn't even spam it in the fight, he used partial Susanoo a handful of times which would no doubt save chakra anyway.

Considering the Uchiha bros. have knowledge now as well, it's fair to say they'll just shut down Kabuto when he starts weaving handseals. They have damn near every advantage here.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Apr 11, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> too bad itachi programmed it to only react to MS.



So we're doing this now 

This is all hypothetical, so if Itachi can still be alive for this scenario, he can have Koto. Just how Kabuto is no longer in Izanami, Itachi had dat crow and can use Kotoamatsukami 

And if we go by your logic then either way Kabuto loses 

So, what's it going to be


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## bleakwinter (Apr 11, 2013)

*Kabuto wins
*

For the Uchiha proponents who claim that Kabuto would lose by virtue of both brothers now having killing intent, you appear to be ignoring that the argument goes both ways. Kabuto wasn't trying to kill Sasuke either, but merely capture him. Similarly, Kabuto was only trying to reprogram Itachi with his seal (Either way, Itachi was immortal, so killing intent or no killing intent makes essentially no difference). Aside from that, I would also like concrete examples of how they can actually harm Kabuto. He is invulnerable to all forms of physical damage due to Suigetsu's hydrafication ability. He will not be hit by Totsuka no Tsurugi, as Kabuto's perception allowed him to dodge Susanoo arrows (1), an attack that Danzo nor Kakashi could not avoid consistently using their own speed (They need Izanagi and Kamui respectively). He is immune to Genjutsu due to his snake summons. He also has _three_ counters to Amaterasu including:


Karin's healing factor, which was able to endure Sasuke's Amaterasu for a brief period of time (2)
 Slough off his skin (3), which he can employ in order to discard areas of his skin surface afflicted by Amaterasu with full knowledge
 Oral rebirth, which would birth another Kabuto and leave the Amaterasu afflicted one behind

In Kabuto's favor, Itachi is not an Edo tensei (As OP has not stated such. If I am mistaken, I will adjust my argument accordingly), thus he's inherently at a disadvantage. His eyesight will deteriorate and he will not be able to sustain Susanoo for long periods of time. Susanoo can be subdued using white shock, permitting Kabuto to land a killing blow on either of them. Even if you believe mortal Itachi can recreate the Susanoo even through the effects white shock similar to his immortal self, his Chakra will dip considerably from having to create a second Susanoo anyway. Kabuto can also summon Manda V2 if he chooses, which will give the Uchiha brothers further trouble. Kabuto has a myriad of Jutsu that were proven to be able to harm either Sasuke or Itachi, while nothing in their arsenal would harm Kabuto.


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## shyakugaun (Apr 11, 2013)

Uchiha bros with Knowledge ? LMAO Rape match of the year, Bros stomp hard


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## blk (Apr 11, 2013)

Itachi can solo.

He can resist to Hakugeki no Jutsu and react to Muki Tensei with Susano'o (but to protect himself this time) and with knowledge he can prepare a Bunshin in order to counter Tayuya's genjutsu.
The rest is all tanked with Susano'o or dodged: in other words, Kabuto has nothing in his arsenal that can beat an Itachi with knowledge.

On the other hand, Kabuto cannot to survive to the Totsuka.
Since Kabuto and Itachi have a very similar speed, there is no way that the former can avoid an extension of the latter (Susano'o), which seems to also be far faster than the same owner [1].

The presence of Sasuke makes this match a stomp in favor of the Uchiha.




bleakwinter said:


> For the Uchiha proponents who claim that Kabuto would lose by virtue of both brothers now having killing intent, you appear to be ignoring that the argument goes both ways. Kabuto wasn't trying to kill Sasuke either, but merely capture him. Similarly, Kabuto was only trying to reprogram Itachi with his seal (Either way, Itachi was immortal, so killing intent or no killing intent makes essentially no difference).



No, the argument doesn't work both ways.
Why? Because the moveset of the brothers has only lethal abilities, while Kabuto's moveset is almost entirely composed of stunning or non-lethal tecniques.

The arsenal of the brothers was far more restricted than Kabuto's; infact, the latter basically went all out against them.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 11, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> *Kabuto wins
> *
> 
> For the Uchiha proponents who claim that Kabuto would lose by virtue of both brothers now having killing intent, you appear to be ignoring that the argument goes both ways. Kabuto wasn't trying to kill Sasuke either, but merely capture him. Similarly, Kabuto was only trying to reprogram Itachi with his seal (Either way, Itachi was immortal, so killing intent or no killing intent makes essentially no difference). Aside from that, I would also like concrete examples of how they can actually harm Kabuto. He is invulnerable to all forms of physical damage due to Suigetsu's hydrafication ability.
> ...



Amaterasu and Enton assaults can easily inhibit his movements and Totsuka can attack at a higher rate than those arrows. Evading one attack isn't so bad, but a flurry of blows from a giant sword, while being set on fire, while more fire is covering half the field and rapidly spreading? Yeah, not so much.



> He is immune to Genjutsu due to his snake summons.



More due to the extra eyelid things he has and the ability to fight blind.



> He also has _three_ counters to Amaterasu including:
> 
> 
> Karin's healing factor, which was able to endure Sasuke's Amaterasu for a brief period of time (2)





Lolno, she never got hit by a direct Amaterasu which has a far more destructive affect on what it touches.



> [*] Slough off his skin (3), which he can employ in order to discard areas of his skin surface afflicted by Amaterasu with full knowledge



And where's he going to go? Sasuke can Itachi can literally cover the field in fire without the other's help. What's more, while dong that he's vulnerable. If hit by a direct Amaterasu he won't be able to slough his skin off fast enough either, he's not shown he can do it particularly fast.



> [*] Oral rebirth, which would birth another Kabuto and leave the Amaterasu afflicted one behind




And while doing this he can get skewered by Totsuka/Enton blade, slapped in the face by an Enton Yasaka Magatama or just Amaterasu'd again.

It's a temporary solution at best.



> In Kabuto's favor, Itachi is not an Edo tensei (As OP has not stated such. If I am mistaken, I will adjust my argument accordingly), thus he's inherently at a disadvantage. His eyesight will deteriorate and he will not be able to sustain Susanoo for long periods of time. Susanoo can be subdued using white shock, permitting Kabuto to land a killing blow on either of them. Even if you believe mortal Itachi can recreate the Susanoo even through the effects white shock similar to his immortal self, his Chakra will dip considerably from having to create a second Susanoo anyway. Kabuto can also summon Manda V2 if he chooses, which will give the Uchiha brothers further trouble. Kabuto has a myriad of Jutsu that were proven to be able to harm either Sasuke or Itachi, while nothing in their arsenal would harm Kabuto.



He doesn't need Susanoo for a long period of time. Itachi outright used Susanoo to protect Sasuke from Hakugeki, it is not a problem here. Manda V2 is fodder to Totsuka.

Kabuto's got nothing but Muki Tensei fast enough to tag the Uchiha bros. Even then Itachi can lolnope and protect himself with Susanoo and then solo the fight. If Sasuke fights as he usually does, spamming Susanoo the whole time, he'll be protected from its effects anyway. There's a good chance that with full knowledge they'll end the fight before Kabuto can use those Jutsu anyway, or just interrupt his casting of them with Amaterasu.


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## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

People forget that Kabuto needs Oral rebirth to survive Amaterasu, which he cant physically dodge especially with two users firing on him at once

Sasuke with knowledge will use Kagetsuchi to have the flames "follow" Kabuto to his next body, so he will constantly be on the defensive simply from Sasuke's assaults
as Sasuke will waste no time restricting Kabuto's movements by filling the cave with Amaterasu

Itachi just needs to tag a distracted Kabuto with Totsuka to finish this


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2013)

Krippy said:


> People forget that Kabuto needs Oral rebirth to survive Amaterasu, which he cant physically dodge especially with two users firing on him at once
> 
> Sasuke with knowledge will use Kagetsuchi to have the flames "follow" Kabuto to his next body, so he will constantly be on the defensive simply from Sasuke's assaults
> as Sasuke will waste no time restricting Kabuto's movements by filling the cave with Amaterasu
> ...


Don't be silly, the brothers are just going to stand there and let Kabuto use Hakugeki, they aren't going to use any fast techniques to attack.


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## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

can't believe I forgot the part where Kabuto blitzes them like some chunin


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## Remsengan (Apr 11, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Edo Itachi has infinite chakra
> 
> Kabuto can't bring out his big guns as quick as the brothers can bring out Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



*Itachi isn't Edo here.*

Kabuto has dodged Susano'o arrows and will make use of the cave environment again to give himself cover.  Amaterasu speed has been very inconsistent so far.  Given the use of Kabuto's reaction against SusArrows and his sensing combined with the setting...I don't see how the Bro's spam Ama or Arrows when the chance of friendly fire or a cave in is so high.

And Itachi did deactivate Susano'o to use Izanami....but a mortal-Itachi isn't going to be able to mantain Susano'o for very long anyways.  Given the amount of times Kabuto broke through or disabled Susano'o, for your prediction to work he'd have to A)spam Ama and B)Maintain Susano'o....Itachi can't maintain that

I didn't say Kabuto would win either.  But it's not a stomp for the Uchiha Bros by any means.  And Itachi certainly doesn't solo.



Vergil642 said:


> Because he was protecting Sasuke and neither of them were attacking seriously the entire fight.
> 
> One Amaterasu and this whole thing is already basically over. To say nothing of Sasuke flinging Enton like a madman on top of this, or Itachi just y'know, protecting himself with Susanoo, limiting Kabuto's movement with Amaterasu and shanking him with Totsuka.
> 
> ...



Sasuke was attacking seriously the entire fight.  At that point he didn't give a damn and even said that there wasn't a point in holding back because Kabuto had Orochimaru's abilities.  Again, given Kabuto's reflexes and the cave setting, Kabuto just needs to split into snakes and let them waste their chakra and/or use Muki Tensei from the shadows.

Kabuto just needs to play defensively here.  He waits for Itachi to keel over from MS use and then rape Sasuke as he basically did the first time.


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## Bansai (Apr 11, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Without killing intent? I disagree. Even though they were stated to want him alive, the techniques they used proved otherwise. They used Amaterasu on him, as well as firing Susanoo arrows and attempting to crush him with Susanoo's hands. That doesn't seem like they were necessarily holding back very much. The fact that they resorted to Izanami should be more hype in Kabuto's favor, no? You also have to remember that Kabuto also wasn't going for the kill, only against Itachi, and even then Kabuto knew he was an Edo Tensei and couldn't die. Kabuto wanted Sasuke's body, he wasn't going to kill him, hence why when Kabuto actually did use killing techniques, such as Muki Tensei and the chakra scalpels, it was all aimed at Itachi.



You got a really good point here. +1 for that.
I couldn't agree more. It was obvious that Itachi and Sasuke didn't hold back that much, as they didn't even have a chance to fight back. Yes, they were trying not to kill him, yet all their attacks were close to useless against him. Let us not forget that Kabuto is resistant to almost everything. He blinded his sight in order to prevent being caught in a Genjutsu and copied Suigetsu's water transformation technique in order to be able to turn his water into liquid as soon as he's getting attacked. But even if he gets hurt, he still has the probably best regeneration technique you can have. A regeneration ability that can heal even vital points is something only people from the Senju and the Uzumaki clan seem to have. And he really DID copy it from someone of the Uzumaki clan. And their regeneration technique is without a doubt unbelievably good. Just look at Kushina, she even survived getting the Kyuubi sucked out of her right after giving birth to Naruto and was even able to stand up just a few minutes later. Kabuto had so many extremely useful abilities and no attack of the Uchiha brothers seemed to be troublesome for him until Itachi used Izanami.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto uses  the light jutsu(can't remember atm) to paralyze, Muki Tensei to finish it off.
> 
> 
> Kabuto wins easily, he has Karin's healing abilities, Suigetsu's waterbody, and Juugos' chakra.
> ...



I agree with this. Further, about Totsuka, it does not seal immediately. It seems to take some time to seal, it gives enough time for the victim to say some words. So if it does touch Kabuto, he can shed his skin.

Although Sasuke not being restricted does give them a chance from what we've seen from Sasuke, the result doesn't change. However maybe as we see more from the EMS, it might change to the Uchiha bros' victory.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 11, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Amaterasu and Enton assaults can easily inhibit his movements



Once again, Amaterasu is not going to strike Kabuto. Are you not aware that Hebi Sasuke was able to _run away from Amaterasu_ (1) for a period of time before blocking it with his wing? Kabuto possesses far more speed than that version of Sasuke, he can easily evade it. 



> Totsuka can attack at a higher rate than those arrows



How can you prove that? Orochimaru allowed Totsuka to strike him because he didn't believe it was harmful, while Nagato's vision was obscured by a cloud of smoke and he couldn't see it coming. Kabuto has full knowledge here and has sage mode's perception, he isn't getting struck by a linear sword attack such as Totsuka. 



> . Evading one attack isn't so bad, but a flurry of blows from a giant sword,



It would be no different. Sage mode's perception grants Kabuto the ability to sense and anticipate attacks. He was able to dodge Itachi's sword swipe even with all of the crows obstructing his view (1) 




> while being set on fire, while more fire is covering half the field and rapidly spreading? Yeah, not so much.



They already tried to cover the field with Amaterasu. Kabuto simply used Jirobo's Doton to re-arrange the ground. 



> More due to the extra eyelid things he has and the ability to fight blind.


That's also true, but his snake summons can also break him out of Genjutsu with Kai technique as it was stated on-panel




> Lolno, she never got hit by a direct Amaterasu which has a far more destructive affect on what it touches.



That's false. There's no difference from being directly hit by it and getting touched by it. A Samurai was directly hit by Amaterasu (2) and suffered no greater damage than Karin did. 



> And where's he going to go? Sasuke can Itachi can literally cover the field in fire without the other's help.



Kabuto was able to move his foot away from Sasuke's Amaterasu and subsequently avoid being hit by the flames when Sasuke attempted to cover his surroundings with the flames (3). He's already exhibited the ability to react to Amaterasu covering the field. Now what makes you certain that the Uchiha brothers have enough Chakra to cover the entire cave with Amaterasu while maintaining Susanoo all while keeping their offense up on kabuto. Itachi's Chakra reserves are poor since he isn't an Edo, and Sasuke has never created a large volume of Amaterasu's flames large enough to cover such a wide area unless you can show me otherwise. 



> What's more, while dong that he's vulnerable. If hit by a direct Amaterasu he won't be able to slough his skin off fast enough either, he's not shown he can do it particularly fast.



He was able to slough off skin multiple times in a short period of time, at least swiftly enough so that neither Itachi or Sasuke could land a clean strike on him (4). It isn't as if he needs to slough it off quickly anyway. As we've seen over and over, Amaterasu is not an instant fatality and requires quite a bit of time to burn its victim to completion. He has quite a surplus of time to discard his skin before it's able to kill him. 



> And while doing this he can get skewered by Totsuka/Enton blade, slapped in the face by an Enton Yasaka Magatama or just Amaterasu'd again.



...Or he can simultaneously cut Itachi in half while he's in the process of oral rebirthing (5) . I'm fairly sure that's more likely to occur as opposed to what you suggested, considering it actually occurred canonically on-panel. 





> He doesn't need Susanoo for a long period of time. Itachi outright used Susanoo to protect Sasuke from Hakugeki, it is not a problem here.


Itachi couldn't protect himself while protecting Sasuke though. Since Kabuto doesn't care about capturing Sasuke in this thread, he would simply kill Itachi during Hakugeki while he's protecting Sasuke. 



> Manda V2 is fodder to Totsuka.



It would also distract both of them, giving Kabuto an easy opening either with another Muki Tensei or any of his other techniques. Overall, too much of your argument is contingent on Itachi's Susanoo usage and Totsuka, when it was shown he can only use it for a limited period of time before runnning out of Chakra or coughing up blood as a mortal. 



> Kabuto's got nothing but Muki Tensei fast enough to tag the Uchiha bros. Even then Itachi can lolnope and protect himself with Susanoo and then solo the fight.



Muki tensei _completely_ canceled Sasuke's Susanoo, and _mostly_ canceled Edo Itachi's Susanoo (Such that Itachi was only able to manifest Susanoo's arm to protect Sasuke). Since Itachi is mortal, he cannot withstand the effects of Muki Tensei like he was able to as an Edo. They would be utterly defenseless in the case against Kabuto.



> If Sasuke fights as he usually does, spamming Susanoo the whole time, he'll be protected from its effects anyway.



I don't know how you can say that when Sasuke literally stated himself that he could not maintain Susanoo through the effects of Muki Tensei (6). Your statement is completely false.


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## Seon (Apr 11, 2013)

Sasuke and Itachi stated multiple times how being handicapped not to kill was holding them back. Sasuke found multiple oppertunities but refrained because Itachi said so 

The brothers with ease. 

If not, sasuke alone.


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## Rain (Apr 11, 2013)

Kabuto falls to Amaterasu. 

The Uchihas only need to keep their eyes on him and he will fall, and given that they've got 4 eyes here, that's going to happen really quickly.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 11, 2013)

blk said:


> Itachi can solo.



Logically he could not, as he does not have infinite Chakra or regeneration as a mortal.  His stamina would dip largely from using Susanoo, and even more-so from using Amaterasu.



> He can resist to Hakugeki no Jutsu



He was able to resist it as an Edo Tensei. He will not be able to do so as a mortal. Either way, he was only able to create Susanoo's arm under Hakugeki, and used it to protect Sasuke at that. Kabuto would simply target Itachi and kill him (While he's using the arm to protect Sasuke) in that case now that he doesn't care about capturing Sasuke. 



> and react to Muki Tensei with Susano'o (but to protect himself this time)


Itachi could react to Muki tensei. Sasuke could not. He can choose to protect Sasuke like he did in the manga, but he would get impaled as a result (Which would kill him since he's now mortal). Alternatively, if Itachi protected himself with Susanoo, then Sasuke would get impaled by Muki Tensei (Since he canonically wasn't able to react to it)



> and with knowledge he can prepare a Bunshin in order to counter Tayuya's genjutsu.


Do you mean by having the clone use Kai in order to break Itachi out? If so, then the clone must physically touch Itachi to do so. Kabuto would simply kill the clone with any of his long ranged attacks (Muki tensei, Kidoumaru's abilities, Kimimaro's abilities etc.).



> The rest is all tanked with Susano'o or dodged: in other words, Kabuto has nothing in his arsenal that can beat an Itachi with knowledge.



Likewise, everything in Itachi's arsenal can be and has been evaded by Kabuto on-panel (With the exception of Totsuka, which I've already extrapolated upon. A linear sword stab would not hit Kabuto, considering he avoided both Chidori lance and Susanoo arrow). Itachi would drop from exhaustion eventually. He cannot maintain Susanoo perpetually. Kabuto's stamina far exceeds Itachi's. It would be a battle of stamina that Kabuto would win. 



> On the other hand, Kabuto cannot to survive to the Totsuka.
> Since Kabuto and Itachi have a very similar speed, there is no way that the former can avoid an extension of the latter (Susano'o), which seems to also be far faster than the same owner [1].



I would stay that's false. Kabuto has better speed feats than Itachi.


Itachi ambushes Kabuto attempts to slash him. Kabuto dodged effortlessly (1),(2)
Kabuto abushes Itachi and attempts to slash him. Itachi is bisected (3)







> No, the argument doesn't work both ways.
> Why? Because the moveset of the brothers has only lethal abilities, while Kabuto's moveset is almost entirely composed of stunning or non-lethal tecniques.



Chakra scalpel is lethal (And was able to slice Itachi in half). Muki Tensei is lethal. Sawarabi no Mai is lethal. Manda is lethal. 



> The arsenal of the brothers was far more restricted than Kabuto's; infact, the latter basically went all out against them.



They were hardly restricted at all. They had used every Jutsu in their combined arsenal in that fight except for sword of Totsuka (Which wouldn't hit Kabuto due to his sage mode perception and his ability to dodge Susanoo arrows that required Kakashi's Kamui to counter).


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## Remsengan (Apr 11, 2013)

Rain said:


> Kabuto falls to Amaterasu.
> 
> The Uchihas only need to keep their eyes on him and he will fall, and given that they've got 4 eyes here, that's going to happen really quickly.



Because that's how it happened the first time, right?


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## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Because that's how it happened the first time, right?



yes, because the brother's were trying to kill him last time, right?


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## bleakwinter (Apr 11, 2013)

Rain said:


> Kabuto falls to Amaterasu.
> 
> The Uchihas only need to keep their eyes on him and he will fall, and given that they've got 4 eyes here, that's going to happen really quickly.



Kabuto simply sloughs off his skin to discard whatever parts of his body are affected by the flames (1). That's exactly how Temari countered the technique as well when it was burning the samurai (By simply removing the affected layers from the victim)


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## Remsengan (Apr 11, 2013)

Krippy said:


> yes, because the brother's were trying to kill him last time, right?



And it's not like Kabuto wasn't avoiding killing Sasuke or Itachi was immortal, right?


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## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> And it's not like Kabuto wasn't avoiding killing Sasuke or Itachi was immortal, right?



And it's not like Sasuke and Itachi have much more lethal jutsu than Kabuto, right?


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## Remsengan (Apr 11, 2013)

Krippy said:


> And it's not like Sasuke and Itachi have much more lethal jutsu than Kabuto, right?



All of which they either used against him or he has an answer for.  Sure, Kabuto's Jutsu are more suited towards non-lethal combat....but that just shows that he didn't truly intend to kill either.

Plus the incapacitate+ambush strategy essentially worked against the Bro's...and would have succeeded if Itachi wasn't immortal.


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## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> All of which they either used against him or he has an answer for.


Kabuto has no answer for a Amaterasu + Kagetsuchi barrage or Totsuka/Enton blade


> Sure, Kabuto's Jutsu are more suited towards non-lethal combat....but that just shows that he didn't truly intend to kill either.


No, it shows that his moveset lacks lethality, unlike the bro's


> Plus the incapacitate+ambush strategy essentially worked against the Bro's...and would have succeeded if Itachi wasn't immortal.


too bad Kabuto will be too busy trying to stay alive with all the Enton spammage going on here


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## Vargas (Apr 11, 2013)

Kabuto rapes so hard it's not even funny
White rage + Muki tensei = Uchiha ketchup


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2013)

Krippy said:


> yes, because the brother's were trying to kill him last time, right?



To be fair, both of the Uchiha can casually deactivate the Jutsu. Both Karin & Sasuke have been hit by Amaterasu & survived.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 11, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Sasuke was attacking seriously the entire fight.  At that point he didn't give a damn and even said that there wasn't a point in holding back because Kabuto had Orochimaru's abilities.  Again, given Kabuto's reflexes and the cave setting, Kabuto just needs to split into snakes and let them waste their chakra and/or use Muki Tensei from the shadows.
> 
> Kabuto just needs to play defensively here.  He waits for Itachi to keel over from MS use and then rape Sasuke as he basically did the first time.



He didn't use Amaterasu offensively once. He didn't use Enton offensively once. His only "serious" attacks involved shooting an arrow at Kabuto and a scratch from something like that isn't fatal to him.

Sasuke can casually deal with every snake using Enton, which will also prevent Muki Tensei from even being used. Itachi isn't going to keel over before a combined MS assault from the Uchiha bros. destroys Kabuto.



bleakwinter said:


> Once again, Amaterasu is not going to strike Kabuto. Are you not aware that Hebi Sasuke was able to _run away from Amaterasu_ (1) for a period of time before blocking it with his wing? Kabuto possesses far more speed than that version of Sasuke, he can easily evade it.



AHAHAHAHAHA.

Now you must be trolling me. Or maybe you've not read the manga? Obito confirmed Itachi wasn't using any Jutsu seriously against Sasuke. But that was obvious anyway to anyone with reading comprehension, particularly in Amaterasu's case. We know from multiple observations that when used, Amaterasu ignites on what the user's eye is focused on. You can't outrun it unless you can outrun the user's sight. That's why A could dodge it; he wasn't dodging the flames, he was moving fast enough that the flames ignited on the after-image left in the space he previously inhabited before moving.

Now, the reason that it's obvious Itachi wasn't using Amaterasu seriously? Sasuke isn't fast enough to replicate A's feat. If he was he'd have blitzed Itachi in that fight. What you're referring to is Sasuke running and Itachi carefully catching Sasuke in the most non-vital spot (his wing) rather than just smothering him with flames. That gave him ample time to escape. It also was believable if you still held the view that Itachi wanted Sasuke dead (this is important because it explains why Sasuke did not question it): he carefully burned away enough to "kill" Sasuke but leave his eyes intact.

Bonus points: in doing this he left Sasuke with enough of a body to Oral Rebirth out of 



> How can you prove that? Orochimaru allowed Totsuka to strike him because he didn't believe it was harmful, while Nagato's vision was obscured by a cloud of smoke and he couldn't see it coming. Kabuto has full knowledge here and has sage mode's perception, he isn't getting struck by a linear sword attack such as Totsuka.



Lulz, still not sure if you're trolling me.

Oro was surprised he was even hit. He didn't see the attack coming and got caught out mid-word.

In case you are serious, let me cut off the most obvious avenue of debate. No, Oro did not, and never has, allowed himself to be hit by an attack. Well, with one exception: when he fought Sasuke in the Chuunin exams. But if you think Oro toying with a Chuunin-level Genin is evidence for how he faces anyone of a high level (such as KN4 Naruto for example) then you're probably a moron. And I don't think you are, just misinformed or trying to troll me.

As for Nagato, the Rinnegan can see chakra. He had a bit of dust between him and the giant chakra construct that Itachi had generated. Call me old-fashioned, but when I see a character getting shanked despite the fact they can see the thing just about to shank them and don't react at all, despite having every reason and multiple ways of reaction that would save them without having to physically move, I call that a blitz. In fact, if it wasn't such heresy I'd say it with complete and utter conviction, but I don't generally because it's too much hassle to deal with those who find it too offensive an idea.

Oh and good luck focusing on a linear sword attack when Kabuto's on fire. Double good luck to him when his options are getting hit or dodging into fire.



> It would be no different. Sage mode's perception grants Kabuto the ability to sense and anticipate attacks. He was able to dodge Itachi's sword swipe even with all of the crows obstructing his view (1)



Yeah, not quite. It let's him sense attacks well enough to avoid them. It doesn't enhance his anticipation any more than being able to see does.

Susanoo by feats is probably faster than Itachi too 



> They already tried to cover the field with Amaterasu. Kabuto simply used Jirobo's Doton to re-arrange the ground.



A perfect moment to hit him with Amaterasu, Enton Yasaka's Magatama, normal Yasaka's Magatama, Totsuka etc. wouldn't you say?

Oh no wait, it wasn't, because the Uchiha Bros weren't fighting to kill. If they were Kabuto would be dead. Silly me.



> That's also true, but his snake summons can also break him out of Genjutsu with Kai technique as it was stated on-panel



True, but they'd have to be on the field and he didn't fight like that in the manga so I doubt it's likely. Though I think we should just let Genjutsu drop, I agree that it won't play any significant role here.



> That's false. There's no difference from being directly hit by it and getting touched by it. A Samurai was directly hit by Amaterasu (2) and suffered no greater damage than Karin did.



No he wasn't, Sasuke was already turning his head and before that would have been focusing his eye elsewhere. In fact, we know he wasn't still using Amaterasu by the simple fact that a line of Amaterasu didn't get created when he shifted his gaze as it did when he used it on Muki Tensei. Amaterasu ignited where A was and then flew through the air as it had nothing to burn. It was afterflames.

Oh and the only time something hasn't just burned instantly or near instantly when hit by Amaterasu directly that something was a Bijuu. When it was used on Gamarinshou, Sasuke's body and Danzou's body everything burned instantly.



> Kabuto was able to move his foot away from Sasuke's Amaterasu and subsequently avoid being hit by the flames when Sasuke attempted to cover his surroundings with the flames (3). He's already exhibited the ability to react to Amaterasu covering the field. Now what makes you certain that the Uchiha brothers have enough Chakra to cover the entire cave with Amaterasu while maintaining Susanoo all while keeping their offense up on kabuto. Itachi's Chakra reserves are poor since he isn't an Edo, and Sasuke has never created a large volume of Amaterasu's flames large enough to cover such a wide area unless you can show me otherwise.



But that's not what Kabuto did :/

He ran towards Sasuke, Sasuke used Amaterasu to create a ring of fire and Kabuto stopped before reaching the fire.

That's not reacting to flames covering the field either, it's reacting to a very small area being covered by not running into it like a jackass. Neither Sasuke nor Itachi have to create huge flames either (though Sasuke did create a flame big enough to cover more than half a Bijuu). All they have to do is have a starting fire and Sasuke can make it spread with Kagatsuchi. It does this naturally anyway as we've seen when Itachi's Amaterasu turned an entire forest into an inferno.



> He was able to slough off skin multiple times in a short period of time, at least swiftly enough so that neither Itachi or Sasuke could land a clean strike on him (4). It isn't as if he needs to slough it off quickly anyway. As we've seen over and over, Amaterasu is not an instant fatality and requires quite a bit of time to burn its victim to completion. He has quite a surplus of time to discard his skin before it's able to kill him.



I'm not sure you're linking me to the right page here. Because all that shows is Kabuto leaving behind snakes that he's sloughed off himself that were already grabbed by Susanoo.

This is not the same as shedding bits of himself quickly enough to dodge attacks or survive a direct Amaterasu hit.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 11, 2013)

> ...Or he can simultaneously cut Itachi in half while he's in the process of oral rebirthing (5) . I'm fairly sure that's more likely to occur as opposed to what you suggested, considering it actually occurred canonically on-panel.



Except that happened because Itachi was using Izanami. Itachi has shown he can react to Kabuto's attacks by replacing himself with a Karasu Bunshin faster than Kabuto knows what's happening.

Though doing that requires him to get close t the Uchiha, which means he has less time to dodge their attacks. Which is tactically pretty retarded and I don't think Kabuto's that stupid.



> Itachi couldn't protect himself while protecting Sasuke though. Since Kabuto doesn't care about capturing Sasuke in this thread, he would simply kill Itachi during Hakugeki while he's protecting Sasuke.



How is he killing Itachi when he has Susanoo up? Indeed, if Itachi wants all he has to do is drag Sasuke to him and protect them both with Susanoo's hand.

Or he protects himself, sees Sasuke dead and then goes apeshit and kills Kabuto harder.



> It would also distract both of them, giving Kabuto an easy opening either with another Muki Tensei or any of his other techniques. Overall, too much of your argument is contingent on Itachi's Susanoo usage and Totsuka, when it was shown he can only use it for a limited period of time before runnning out of Chakra or coughing up blood as a mortal.



Muki Tensei is useless if there's no cave left and Manda V2 is waaay too big to fit into that cave without destroying it.

My apologies, I thought I made it clear that I thought this fight would be over in under a minute, nowhere near the time it takes to exhaust Itachi.



> Muki tensei _completely_ canceled Sasuke's Susanoo, and _mostly_ canceled Edo Itachi's Susanoo (Such that Itachi was only able to manifest Susanoo's arm to protect Sasuke). Since Itachi is mortal, he cannot withstand the effects of Muki Tensei like he was able to as an Edo. They would be utterly defenseless in the case against Kabuto.



You mean Hakugeki I presume? I already addressed that though so y'know, not doing it a second time.

Muki Tensei only works if Manda hasn't destroyed the cave, there aren't shit-tons of Amaterasu flames around (and there probably will be as that's a favourite method of attack for Sasuke, not to mention the fact that both have knowledge on Kabuto here) and if Hakugeki is used to fuck with their senses.

That's a lot to set up while Itachi and Sasuke do nothing. Oh wait, my bad, I meant smother the place with flames.



> I don't know how you can say that when Sasuke literally stated himself that he could not maintain Susanoo through the effects of Muki Tensei (6). Your statement is completely false.



Because you used the wrong name. Now, if you'd actually said Hakugeki then yeah, you're right, Sasuke can't maintain Susanoo. But Muki Tensei is a different Jutsu entirely and utterly no threat if Sasuke keeps Susanoo up. Which he's probably going to do if he fights like he usually does when aiming to kill.



Rocky said:


> To be fair, both of the Uchiha can casually deactivate the Jutsu. Both Karin & Sasuke have been hit by Amaterasu & survived.



To be fair, if they don't kill him with it it's a big waste of energy. Doesn't really make sense to use it if it isn't to kill.


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## blk (Apr 11, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Logically he could not, as he does not have infinite Chakra or regeneration as a mortal.  His stamina would dip largely from using Susanoo, and even more-so from using Amaterasu.



The fight won't last more than few minutes, so this is not really relevant.



> He was able to resist it as an Edo Tensei. He will not be able to do so as a mortal. Either way, he was only able to create Susanoo's arm under Hakugeki, and used it to protect Sasuke at that. Kabuto would simply target Itachi and kill him (While he's using the arm to protect Sasuke) in that case now that he doesn't care about capturing Sasuke.



How do you know that the Edo Tensei form has anything to do with that feat? Moreover, with knowledge Sasuke will be prepared to this jutsu and perhaps counter it (like moving away from it before that its effects starts..... something that he didn't do in the manga but that can in a scenario with knowledge).



> Itachi could react to Muki tensei. Sasuke could not. He can choose to protect Sasuke like he did in the manga, but he would get impaled as a result (Which would kill him since he's now mortal). Alternatively, if Itachi protected himself with Susanoo, then Sasuke would get impaled by Muki Tensei (Since he canonically wasn't able to react to it)



Itachi put up Susano'o only at the last moment, with knowledge he will put up a more complete form the moment Kabuto uses Muki Tensei.



> Do you mean by having the clone use Kai in order to break Itachi out? If so, then the clone must physically touch Itachi to do so. Kabuto would simply kill the clone with any of his long ranged attacks (Muki tensei, Kidoumaru's abilities, Kimimaro's abilities etc.).



Not necessarily a Kai, even a genjutsu like he and Sasuke did should suffice.




> I would stay that's false. Kabuto has better speed feats than Itachi.
> 
> 
> Itachi ambushes Kabuto attempts to slash him. Kabuto dodged effortlessly (1),(2)
> Kabuto abushes Itachi and attempts to slash him. Itachi is bisected (3)



Itachi did that ambush only for prepare Izanami, not for actually cut Kabuto's head (something that he couldn't have done).
The second example was also intentional, he wanted Kabuto to decrease the distance and take the sword in order to finish Izanami.
Basically, everything that happened in those instances was part of Itachi's plan, he intentionally let Kabuto do those things.

Further I have better examples [1 ; 2]. As the scans show, Itachi could easily react to Kabuto and they encountered like in the middle of the place (meaning that the distance traveled by both was similar).

And with the assumption that Naruto and Kabuto's Sage Mode both increase the speed of the user to a similar level, it is possible to confirm that Itachi and Kabuto have a similar speed:

- Itachi can keep up with Kakashi;
- Kakashi can keep up with Deva;
- Deva can keep up with SM Naruto;
- Itachi can keep up with SM Naruto;
- Itachi can keep up with SM Kabuto;

Since Kabuto have similar base speed stats of Naruto, granted the above hypothesis, we can safely state that Itachi and SM Kabuto have a similar level of speed.

In short, Kabuto cannot dodge an extension of someone that is already on par with him in the speed departement; also because this extension is faster than the same user.



> Chakra scalpel is lethal (And was able to slice Itachi in half). Muki Tensei is lethal. Sawarabi no Mai is lethal. Manda is lethal.



Everything you listed is useless (thanks to Susano'o) aside from Manda, that can't be used in a cave.



> They were hardly restricted at all. They had used every Jutsu in their combined arsenal in that fight except for sword of Totsuka (Which wouldn't hit Kabuto due to his sage mode perception and his ability to dodge Susanoo arrows that required Kakashi's Kamui to counter).



Actually, aside from one instance, they used all of their jutsu for protect themselves, without aiming for Kabuto.
Sasuke didn't even used the ability to manipulate the black flames (a relevant part of his arsenal) and Itachi didn't used the Totsuka, which would have ended the match immediatly.

Kabuto's strongest powers are non-lethal jutsu, his arsenal is far more useful in a situation where you can't kill the opponent, compared to the MS powers.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 11, 2013)

How can people argue manga canon?


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## Big Mom (Apr 11, 2013)

Kabuto was more handicapped than the brothers were. Not only was Kabuto not trying to kill Sasuke, but he couldn't kill Itachi. Itachi, on the other hand, had unlimited chakra, and immortality. I honestly don't see how people see the fight stacked in Kabuto's favor:

Kabuto: had full knowledge of the Uchiha brothers, they weren't trying to kill him

The Uchiha Brothers: He wasn't trying to kill one of them, the other couldn't be killed and has unlimited amounts of chakra, there were two of them, they had full knowledge of Orochimaru's abilities

It seemed pretty stacked in the Uchiha's favor during that fight.


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## αce (Apr 11, 2013)

I find it comical that people are ignoring that Sasuke and Itachi have full intel. I'm completely tempted to say that Sasuke will win this match on his own but I suppose I have to read the arguments in this thread first.


> Kabuto was more handicapped than the brothers were. Not only was Kabuto not trying to kill Sasuke, but he couldn't kill Itachi. Itachi, on the other hand, had unlimited chakra, and immortality. I honestly don't see how people see the fight stacked in Kabuto's favor:
> 
> Kabuto: had full knowledge of the Uchiha brothers, they weren't trying to kill him
> 
> ...



Neither side was trying to kill the other side but it was heavily implied that if Sasuke had wanted too he would have ended Kabuto's life. The fact that Sasuke's arsenal was reduced to nothing because Itachi insisted on keeping him alive is what gave Kabuto a clear cut advantage.

Sasuke was reliant on a jutsu he didn't even know the mechanics of to win the match because Itachi made sure Kabuto couldn't die.


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## blk (Apr 11, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Kabuto was more handicapped than the brothers were. Not only was Kabuto not trying to kill Sasuke, but he couldn't kill Itachi. Itachi, on the other hand, had unlimited chakra, and immortality. I honestly don't see how people see the fight stacked in Kabuto's favor:
> 
> Kabuto: had full knowledge of the Uchiha brothers, they weren't trying to kill him
> 
> ...



They had zero knowledge of Kabuto's own abilities, which were, infact, the most problematic.

Not only that, but the non-killing intent argument doesn't apply for Kabuto.
Why? Because his strongest moves _are non-lethal_.

The strongest part of his moveset were perfect for a match where the opponent doesn't necessarily have to be killed.

Itachi and Sasuke's arsenals were far more restricted.


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## Big Mom (Apr 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Neither side was trying to kill the other side but it was heavily implied that if Sasuke had wanted too he would have ended Kabuto's life. The fact that Sasuke's arsenal was reduced to nothing because Itachi insisted on keeping him alive is what gave Kabuto a clear cut advantage.
> 
> Sasuke was reliant on a jutsu he didn't even know the mechanics of to win the match because Itachi made sure Kabuto couldn't die.



Implied does not mean he could actually pull it off. His helpessness in the match proved so. You are still ignoring how Kabuto was also at a disadvantage.



blk said:


> They had zero knowledge of Kabuto's own abilities, which were, infact, the most problematic.
> 
> Not only that, but the non-killing intent argument doesn't apply for Kabuto.
> Why? Because his strongest moves _are non-lethal_.
> ...



But when Kabuto did go for the kill, it was always to the immortal, and was always successful.


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## blk (Apr 11, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> But when Kabuto did go for the kill, it was always to the immortal, and was always successful.



How do this address what i said? Moreover, it was succesfull because of precise circumstances that won't be present in a fight where the brothers have full knowledge and killing-intent.


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2013)

If I'm not mistaken, it's Edo Itachi & EMS Sasuke vs SM Kabuto, the OP seems to want to know whether the Brothers could've killed Kabuto.

Itachi told Sasuke not to use ribcage Susanoo on Kabuto in fear of hurting him.

That only shows how much the brothers were holding back.

Not only but that never actually made an offensive move on Kabuto which was why he was able to use something like Mugen Ousa, they were buying time the whole damn match for Izanami.

The brothers curbstomp low difficulty.

SM Kabuto for top tier


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## Big Mom (Apr 11, 2013)

blk said:


> How do this address what i said? Moreover, it was succesfull because of precise circumstances that won't be present in a fight where the brothers have full knowledge and killing-intent.



I apologize, I would have addressed your question/concern, but it didn't actually make sense to me. I didn't know what you were saying. Seemed more like you were making a statement than actually debating.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2013)

Sasuke does solo.

He activates FINAL (<---- Keyword) Susano'o and lights the entire cave on fire instead of a defensive circle. Then with said fire, he brutally impales Kabuto multiple times with his manipulation abilities. 

There is absolutely nowhere Kabuto can run to escape this pleasant fate.


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## Remsengan (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it's Edo Itachi & EMS Sasuke vs SM Kabuto, the OP seems to want to know whether the Brothers could've killed Kabuto.
> 
> Itachi told Sasuke not to use ribcage Susanoo on Kabuto in fear of hurting him.
> 
> ...



If the OP meant Edo, he never said it. 

And despite Itachi scolding Sasuke, Sasuke immediately replied by saying they didn't have to hold back.  Sasuke had more knowledge than Itachi...who do you think made the right call based on intel?

They made plenty of offensive moves on him...Itachi tried to decapitate him.  They both nearly hit him with Amaterasu/Enton, smashed him with Susano'o, spammed arrows, ect.  You're confusing not being offensive with not being able to land an attack.

Kabuto could easily be considered top tier.  Not Hashirama top-tier....but easily above Kage level.


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> If the OP meant Edo, he never said it.
> 
> And despite Itachi scolding Sasuke, Sasuke immediately replied by saying they didn't have to hold back.  Sasuke had more knowledge than Itachi...who do you think made the right call based on intel?
> 
> ...


He's set up the conditions the same as the were in the cave fight almost. 

Even if it is non-Edo, like one Amaterasu is going to sap Itachi too much anyway. All they need is to light the cave up and Sasuke can manipulate it to catch Kabuto. And guess what? It activates faster then Hakugeki.

Itachi never used Amaterasu at Kabuto, nor did Sasuke. They aimed it at the web he shot and Sasuke made a ring of it for defense. Spammed? As in one or two?

No he isn't top tier. That's the joke.

Bijuu Mode Naruto/Madara/Hashirama/Obito would flatten with Kabuto with zero difficulty.

And so what? Without ET Kabuto is above Kage level yeah but so are Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke. They're miles ahead actually. So it's two high tiers vs one high tier. And guess what? Numbers win when power is similar.


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## BroKage (Apr 12, 2013)

This fight result isn't really determinable, it all depends on how well Oral Rebirth counters a constant stream of Amaterasu from Sasuke and if SM Kabuto is capable of dodging Itachi's Sword of Totsuka. Yet those variables are vague and we don't have many manga feats to guess off of.

SM Kabuto has to dodge those jutsus for long enough to disable Susano'o with White Rage/Phantom Sound Chains and then kill the brothers with Bone Forest, Muki Tensei, or Chakra Scalpel. Otherwise the Uchihas win.


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## Krippy (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> To be fair, both of the Uchiha can casually deactivate the Jutsu. Both Karin & Sasuke have been hit by Amaterasu & survived.



true, its a good thing there are two of them here to keep the rapeage in check



Rocky said:


> Sasuke does solo.
> 
> He activates FINAL (<---- Keyword) Susano'o and lights the entire cave on fire instead of a defensive circle. Then with said fire, he brutally impales Kabuto multiple times with his manipulation abilities.
> 
> There is absolutely nowhere Kabuto can run to escape this pleasant fate.



/thread


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## BroKage (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He activates FINAL (<---- Keyword) Susano'o and lights the entire cave on fire instead of a defensive circle. Then with said fire, he brutally impales Kabuto multiple times with his manipulation abilities.
> 
> There is absolutely nowhere Kabuto can run to escape this pleasant fate.


to blind it to force a one-on-one with the Paths.
to blind it to force a one-on-one with the Paths.

Kabuto can go under the cave.


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Nah Kabuto can liquify.

Water > Amaterasu




*Spoiler*: __ 



They can hit him with more Amaterasu when Kabuto uses Oral Rebirth. He doesn't have Raiton to slice through the ground like Sasuke did nor is he smart enough.


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## blk (Apr 12, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I apologize, I would have addressed your question/concern, but it didn't actually make sense to me. I didn't know what you were saying. Seemed more like you were making a statement than actually debating.



You said that Kabuto was more disadvantaged, and i replied saying that it is not true, since his strongest jutsu (aside from Edo Tensei) are non-lethal and therefore he could use them without concern.
The rest of his arsenal is pretty much a non-factor, Susano'o counters it heavily.

On the other hand, the brothers couldn't use their strongest powers, such as Sasuke's Amaterasu manipulation and Itachi's Totsuka (which can basically end the match).

These assertions are clear enough, i'm not sure why you say that they don't make sense.


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## Seon (Apr 12, 2013)

Kabuto would lose horribly. He spent most of the time trying to convince sasuke to come to his side because he knew fighting them would be difficult. He blocked his own eyesight and stated how there tech wouldn't work on him. He tried to hard not to lose. While Itachi and sasuke weren't out to kill.... Do you know how hard it is to best an opponent who completely has knowledge on you. Wile ou don't know shutoff what he an do? 

The whole fight on the Uchiha side was reactive. They never once through the first punch. They had to react to his Justus and countered them every time.

Edit: sasuke will showcase, he could have done it on his own. Without a new powerful or anything.


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## Stermor (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Nah Kabuto can liquify.
> 
> Water > Amaterasu
> 
> ...



kabuto can easily just travel underground to counter any amaterasu.. randomly setting things on fire is not going to anything.. 

and seriously are you going to say sasuke?? the most retarded uchiha  can come up with things kabuto can't?? sasuke while not a complete idiot in battle (but close now a days) has no business even beeing in the same range as kabuto.. kabuto fought everybody battle he ever did using cleverness/ tricks and tactics.. 

sasuke idee of tactics is spam ms till blind.. or get killed enough that the other guy gives up.. 



Seon said:


> The whole fight on the Uchiha side was reactive. They never once through the first punch. They had to react to his Justus and countered them every time.
> 
> Edit: sasuke will showcase, he could have done it on his own. Without a new powerful or anything.



uhm no it was itachi countering.. while sasuke had to be helped... itachi was the dominant force in the battle sure.. 

but sasuke was literly just spamming stuff and hoping it would work.. and it would have easily gotten him killed if itachi didn't help him out..


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2013)

Loling @ the arguments saying Kabuto was equall restricted as the brothers...

It was never stated that he held anything back. Neither himself nor the brothers noted it.

But I remember Itachi repeatedly saying that they shouldn't hurt him and I remember Kabuto saying more than once that they can't kill him because they needed him alive.

Everything points to the fact that Kabuto would be dead if they wanted him dead. 
The challange was to capture him alive, without being able to use any conventional means of genjutsu. 

Kabuto dies within seconds.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Stermor said:


> kabuto can easily just travel underground to counter any amaterasu.. randomly setting things on fire is not going to anything..
> 
> and seriously are you going to say sasuke?? the most retarded uchiha  can come up with things kabuto can't?? sasuke while not a complete idiot in battle (but close now a days) has no business even beeing in the same range as kabuto.. kabuto fought everybody battle he ever did using cleverness/ tricks and tactics..
> 
> ...



Damn son, lay of that Sasuke haterade. 

None of the Uchiha are "retarded." They're some of the most intellectually gifted individuals the manga has to offer. The only reasons Sasuke couldn't rip Kabuto in half were

1.) Sasuke's moveset is completely lethal. Basically every single technique Sauce posses has a good chance at one-shotting. Itachi wasn't havin' dat, son. He knocked down Sasuke's shuriken...weapons that part 1 Sakura can tank. Itachi wasn't going to let Sasuke use anything _directly_ on Kabuto that was remotely lethal.

2.) They had no knowledge on Kabuto's bag of tricks. Now that Sauce knows what Kabuto is capable of, our Uchiha friend treats the Sage to a spree of flaming magatama should he try anything. Sure Kabuto can dodge (though not forever), but any of Sasuke's speedy attacks will definitely interrupt  Kabuto's Ninjutsu attempts. 

Itachi is just smarter than Sasuke, and more able to adapt to the situation. Itach is boss like that. He was literally the perfect Shinobi for the job, and his performance should not be a detriment to Sasuke.


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## Stermor (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Damn son, lay of that Sasuke haterade.



if people stop overrating sasuke by such a huge margin sure 



Rocky said:


> None of the Uchiha are "retarded." They're some of the most intellectually gifted individuals the manga has to offer. The only reasons Sasuke couldn't rip Kabuto in half were



not really.. and while sasuke is probebly not retarded.. he is when compared to itachi.. sasuke fights really stupid.. 



Rocky said:


> 1.) Sasuke's moveset is completely lethal. Basically every single technique Sauce posses has a good chance at one-shotting. Itachi wasn't havin' dat, son. He knocked down Sasuke's shuriken...weapons that part 1 Sakura can tank. Itachi wasn't going to let Sasuke use anything _directly_ on Kabuto that was remotely lethal.



sasuke doesn't have lighting techniques anymore/? or fire ball or whatever.. him forgetting everything bar ms means he doesn't fight smart.. 



Rocky said:


> 2.) They had no knowledge on Kabuto's bag of tricks. Now that Sauce knows what Kabuto is capable of, our Uchiha friend treats the Sage to a spree of flaming magatama should he try anything. Sure Kabuto can dodge (though not forever), but any of Sasuke's speedy attacks will definitely interrupt  Kabuto's Ninjutsu attempts.



this hasn't worked before.. kabuto managed to finish his ninjutsu even while out of line of sight.. so that not really going to work..  



Rocky said:


> Itachi is just smarter than Sasuke, and more able to adapt to the situation. Itach is boss like that. He was literally the perfect Shinobi for the job, and his performance should not be a detriment to Sasuke.



true itachi is boss. but can you really say that if itachi wasn't there.. that sasuke would have survived the first attack kabuto used?? he would have died then and there. 

really sasuke arsenal is based on spam stuff hope it hits.. which cleary doesn't work on kabuto who is both a quite capable sensor and capable of using the terrain to its advantage.. and kabuto has the attacks to take out sasuke as already shown.. 

itachi is pretty much the same.. he has nearly the same arsenal.. but the usage of that arsenal is so much better that he can beat kabuto. and that he has better reactions and speed/ brains doesn't hurt either.. 

which is the why itachi will get the win.. and sasuke doesn't..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke does solo.
> 
> He activates FINAL (<---- Keyword) Susano'o and lights the entire cave on fire instead of a defensive circle. Then with said fire, he brutally impales Kabuto multiple times with his manipulation abilities.
> 
> There is absolutely nowhere Kabuto can run to escape this pleasant fate.



If Kabuto was capable of dodging Sasuke's fastest Susanoo attack, why not the Enton Magatama?


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 12, 2013)

The manga has already made this clear enough for people to understand....

Kabuto > Itachi and Sasuke


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## IchLiebe (Apr 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Loling @ the arguments saying Kabuto was equall restricted as the brothers...
> 
> It was never stated that he held anything back. Neither himself nor the brothers noted it.
> 
> ...



Itachi implicitly stated that Kabuto was going for capturing Sasuke and that Sasuke was his main target. Kabuto also noted how he couldn't kill Itachi thanks to his own ET and had to take control of him by a fuda tag.

Why so they could stop the edo's something Itachi can easily do given he has Totsuka. and that the Shinobi alliance was doing a good job of anyways and now has left the Prime Evil Madara Uchiha edod in a perfect state doing what he wants, Kabuto could've controlled Madara and strayed from the plan thus saving the world from infinite Tsukuyomi and just becoming his own god and be number 1 and go from there depending of which he could've tried to overthrow the shinobi villages or just continue his quest for immortality and all techniques. Kabuto wants his test subjects alive not dead.

Except his dodged all of their attacks and if it wasn't due to Edo tensei Kabuto would've killed Itachi 2xs for a fact manga canon and couldn't keep putting up a fight when he was alive as inanimate object has more chakra than he does. Kabuto clearly showed he could handle everything in their arsenal while toying with them. I never really seen Kabuto as that serious as he wasn't busting out amazing techniques bar Hakugeki and Muki tensei. 


The only things they have that can stop him is the Totsuka blade and given its properties(takes time to seal) Kabuto can easily escape by using the Hozuki clan's waterbody jutsu and reform and heal using Karin Uzamaki's healing abilities, then then gets chakra from Jyuugo's clans blood. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.

WHAT THE FUCK CAN KILL HIM.

The only thing i can think of is Tsu or some other top tier genjutsu like Izanami(restricted), and thanks to Kabuto's genjutsu countering ability of closing his eyes and sensing attacks and opponets to dodge like he did the fucking speeding arrow fired from the Susanoo of Sasuke. He dodged a blitz attempt from Itachi who cut the horn off Kabuto of which he replied "Oh, I see, I forgot about the horns". Izanami is used as a defensive measure to defend against someone using Izanagi. 

Kabuto now will have his full arsenal other than what he chose to, to occupy them(as shown against them when he put them in a box from 4 different attack that posed no harm whatsoever to either to until the genjutsu from Tayuya, of which Itachi can't break out of cause using Tsukuyomi one time leaves him nearly dead and slow.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi implicitly stated that Kabuto was going for capturing Sasuke and that Sasuke was his main target. Kabuto also noted how he couldn't kill Itachi thanks to his own ET and had to take control of him by a fuda tag.
> 
> Why so they could stop the edo's something Itachi can easily do given he has Totsuka. and that the Shinobi alliance was doing a good job of anyways and now has left the Prime Evil Madara Uchiha edod in a perfect state doing what he wants, Kabuto could've controlled Madara and strayed from the plan thus saving the world from infinite Tsukuyomi and just becoming his own god and be number 1 and go from there depending of which he could've tried to overthrow the shinobi villages or just continue his quest for immortality and all techniques. Kabuto wants his test subjects alive not dead.
> 
> ...



I didn't read anything except for the capslock part, pretty sure its all garbage.

To answer that bit, they can kill him with anything Susano'O can dish out. Considering the fact that they easily hit him when they combined attacks of their Susano'o, it won't take much effort this time around. 

Imagine the arrow which got him on the tail hitting him in the face, or imagine enton sword or Totsuka doing the same. 

Like I said, Kabuto can't survive more than 5 seconds here. The offensive power brothers can dish out is way, way beyond Kabuto's defensive capabilities.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 12, 2013)

Kabuto wins, he has a counter for all these jutsus, and neither of them are outlasting a Sage who is constantly absorbing energy.

Flashbang+Genjutsu+Muki tensei takes out Sasuke pretty quickly, and Kabuto can just laugh at it's his attempts at trying to kill him until he passes out.

Also Kabuto is not restricted to the area, if the Uchiha brothers spam black flames everywhere he will just go underground and move to a different area.

Also itachi and Sasuke were hardly holding back the only thing they did not use is genjutsu(which they literally could not use) and totsuka sword which would not help anyway.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't read anything except for the capslock part, pretty sure its all garbage.
> 
> To answer that bit, they can kill him with anything Susano'O can dish out. Considering the fact that they easily hit him when they combined attacks of their Susano'o, it won't take much effort this time around.
> 
> ...



Easily hit him? Kabuto was dodging duel Susanno users and Sasukes fastest attacks via his sensing powers. Took the combination of both Susanos to eventually nail his tail which keep in mind kabuto has insane healing properties which means jack shit. Kabuto can also liquify his body if needed 

Kishi made it perfectly clear that kabuto is simply on another tier even to Edo Itachi. How the hell can you say kabuto did not have similar limitations. He only mentioned it numerous times throught the fight...

someone who can:
Avoid genjutsu via sensing
dodge dual Susannoo users
captured the king in his own game at genjutsu
liquify his body

Yup would last only 5 seconds


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## Nikushimi (Apr 12, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> The manga has already made this clear enough for people to understand....
> 
> Kabuto > Itachi and Sasuke



The only thing the manga made abundantly clear was the fact that Kabuto only had the upperhand because of the circumstances.

He reminded them constantly that they weren't allowed to kill him if they wanted to stop Edo Tensei. He tried to take back control of Itachi. He even tried to convince Sasuke to switch sides and help him.

Kabuto also had way more intel on the Uchiha bros. than they had on him. And the fact that they weren't allowed to kill or seal him, and could only bet their victory on the success of Izanami, is something Kabuto benefitted from greatly.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Easily hit him? Kabuto was dodging duel Susanno users and Sasukes fastest attacks via his sensing powers.



Uh, no. Kabuto dodged one Susano'o arrow; he was grabbed, stabbed, and intercepted _repeatedly_  by Susano'o, particularly when the brothers were working together. He needed Oral Rebirth to slip out of its grasp.

If Itachi had been willing to use the Totsuka no Tsurugi or Sasuke used an Enton sword, that would've been game over.



> Took the combination of both Susanos to eventually nail his tail which keep in mind kabuto has insane healing properties which means jack shit. Kabuto can also liquify his body if needed



And Sasuke can counter that with Raiton. Yet again, following this up with Itachi's Totsuka no Tsurugi means Kabuto is out. The brothers were not allowed to do that. 



> Kishi made it perfectly clear that kabuto is simply on another tier even to Edo Itachi. How the hell can you say kabuto did not have similar limitations. He only mentioned it numerous times throught the fight...



Really? So I guess Kabuto's sealing tag was restricted, then.

No, wait; he actively tried to use it on Itachi.



> someone who can:
> dodge dual Susannoo users



Kabuto cannot do this. The brothers got solid hits/grabs on him with their Susano'o. Itachi even parried him with Sasuke's Kusanagi.



> captured the king in his own game at genjutsu



Because they didn't know about it in advance; that's why they ran away and hid in the cave, not knowing he could still get them that way.

And they still broke it together.



> liquify his body



Which Raiton is super effective against and can paralyze, a la Suigetsu vs. Darui.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Kabuto was capable of dodging Sasuke's fastest Susanoo attack, why not the Enton Magatama?



Since Sasuke can control fire, it doesn't matter if Kabuto dodges. Eventually the Sauce will spread enough fire to completely restrict Kabuto's movement. From there Kabuto get's ignited. If he tries to shed his skin in an attempt to counter, Sasuke shapes the flames into giant burning spikes. Oral Rebirth will accomplish nothing if Kabuto's insides are on fire.

Sasuke can probably skip the movement limitation step now that I look back. Kabuto may be quick, but he's no Raikage. Sasuke ends this quickly with Amaterasu, using Kagutsuchi to ensure Kabuto cannot escape the fire.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 12, 2013)

Spreading Amaterasu around the environment wouldn't really work, since Kabuto can use Jirobou's or his own Doton Ninjutsu to move apart the burning sections of battlefield or travel underground to avoid the flames.

But Itachi and Sasuke should be able to hit him eventually through sheer teamwork, regardless; this notion that Kabuto can just flawlessly dodge them both forever is a total myth. He was hit several times over the course of the fight and was forced to shed his skin to avoid capture; Itachi was countering him with just a sword and even beat him to the punch with a basic Suiton in the Izanami loop.

Just because he dodged one chakra arrow from a distance thanks to advanced sensing abilities doesn't mean he is significantly faster than the Uchiha Bros.; they are still able to keep up with him.

EDIT: We also saw that the brothers were able to restrict Kabuto's movement with Susano'o, employing the same strategy they had used on the wild boar in their childhood flashback. Itachi confined him with four Magatama and Sasuke immediately followed by successfully piercing his "tail" with a chakra arrow. Had they been willing to go for the finisher, they could've used the Totsuka no Tsurugi or an Enton weapon instead.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Spreading Amaterasu around the environment wouldn't really work, since Kabuto can use Jirobou's or his own Doton Ninjutsu to move apart the burning sections of battlefield or travel underground to avoid the flames.



If Kabuto stops moving to use Jirobou, Sasuke can stop burning the cave and just light up Kabuto himself.

If Kabuto goes underground to avoid, Sasuke can make use of his electricity abilities to ruin Kabuto's day, or use Susano'o to _smash_ Kabuto out.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If Kabuto stops moving to use Jirobou, Sasuke can stop burning the cave and just light up Kabuto himself.



I don't think Kabuto would have to stop moving.



> If Kabuto goes underground to avoid, Sasuke can make use of his electricity abilities to ruin Kabuto's day, or use Susano'o to _smash_ Kabuto out.



Or just...you know...wait for him to come up for air.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The only thing the manga made abundantly clear was the fact that Kabuto only had the upperhand because of the circumstances.


When did the manga make it clear that Kabuto had the upperhand? Was it not Itachi who used Nagatos ability to sense the location of kabuto? Did Itachi not have a plan to stop Kabuto? 

Kabuto had the same circumstances as the Uchicha bros if not more. He wanted to capture Sasuke and re-write Itachi. 



> He reminded them constantly that they weren't allowed to kill him if they wanted to stop Edo Tensei. He tried to take back control of Itachi. He even tried to convince Sasuke to switch sides and help him



and this is relevant how? Kabuto is one of the most twisted and manipulative characters in the manga 



> Kabuto also had way more intel on the Uchiha bros. than they had on him. And the fact that they weren't allowed to kill or seal him, and could only bet their victory on the success of Izanami, is something Kabuto benefitted from greatly.



I will agree 100% that kabuto had more intel on kabuto however that does not change the fact they both were handicapped the same




> Uh, no. Kabuto dodged one Susano'o arrow; he was grabbed, stabbed, and intercepted _repeatedly_  by Susano'o, particularly when the brothers were working together. He needed Oral Rebirth to slip out of its grasp


.

And your point? He used a jutsu to escape a technique...welcome to the world of mangas. Itachi had to use his edo form to survive and rely on sasuke from getting owned....stupid logic is stupid



> If Itachi had been willing to use the Totsuka no Tsurugi or Sasuke used an Enton sword, that would've been game over.



If kabuto used Edo Tensie he would of murder stomped them...yet again flawless logic




> Really? So I guess Kabuto's sealing tag was restricted, then.
> 
> No, wait; he actively tried to use it on Itachi.



What? It was kabuto intention to capture Itachi as a pawn again....




> Kabuto cannot do this. The brothers got solid hits/grabs on him with their Susano'o. Itachi even parried him with Sasuke's Kusanagi.



Sure he can. He can also use oral rebirth, liquify his body and etc to escape damage. Also, how much damage did that do to kabuto? Hardly any 




> Because they didn't know about it in advance; that's why they ran away and hid in the cave, not knowing he could still get them that way.



So you want kabuto to come out and just say hey guys stand there while I use this genjutsu...brilliant



> And they still broke it together.



Which only strengthens my argument that if not for each others help they would have been captured


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't think Kabuto would have to stop moving.



If you want to make the argument that Kabuto can run around using Jirobou's abilities to avoid Sasuke from chasing his ass down with Susano'o and Enton...ok.



> Or just...you know...wait for him to come up for air.



Less fun.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since Sasuke can control fire, it doesn't matter if Kabuto dodges. Eventually the Sauce will spread enough fire to completely restrict Kabuto's movement. From there Kabuto get's ignited. If he tries to shed his skin in an attempt to counter, Sasuke shapes the flames into giant burning spikes. Oral Rebirth will accomplish nothing if Kabuto's insides are on fire.
> 
> Sasuke can probably skip the movement limitation step now that I look back. Kabuto may be quick, but he's no Raikage. Sasuke ends this quickly with Amaterasu, using Kagutsuchi to ensure Kabuto cannot escape the fire.



Altering the landscape is a good way to get some room to move. It is within Kabuto's power to do this.

We don't know what cripples oral rebirth, because apparently Sasuke can do it with half his body incinerated. Kabuto more or less has unlimited chakra given his SM arrangement, so he can use the oral rebirth as much as he pleases. 
Sasuke was able to bear this with the little white snake healing he had; Kabuto has that, plus multiple sources of healing that are rapidly enhanced by his SM in addition to his own healing.

The drawback here for Sasuke is if half way through the fight Kabuto decides to send a White Rage at Sasuke. Then follows with Jirobou's power to take all those Amaterasu flames _towards Sasuke_ while Sasuke's holding his ears in pain. That would make spreading Amaterasu a bad idea.
Even worse for Itachi because there will be enough flames to get to him too.


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## LanzaVelocity (Apr 12, 2013)

This is fucking pathetic.

The double standards these people use, replace both brothers with Minato and suddenly they'll start saying Minato stomps. So somehow two people on his tier get raped but he wins?

This place really is only good for fandom wars.

Minato can indeed solo, Itachi can solo and EMS Sauce can shit on Harry Potter.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian;46907269
We don't know what cripples oral rebirth said:
			
		

> half his body[/COLOR] incinerated. Kabuto more or less has unlimited chakra given his SM arrangement, so he can use the oral rebirth as much as he pleases.
> Sasuke was able to bear this with the little white snake healing he had; Kabuto has that, plus multiple sources of healing that are rapidly enhanced by his SM in addition to his own healing.



Avoid comparing being impaled multiple times with giant Amaterasu spikes to being hit in the fireproof wing with an Amaterasu that Itachi was going to turn off before it did fatal damage. They're different.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 12, 2013)

Kabuto smacks him. This isn't getting passed White Rage. Kabuto showed the brothers before, how superior he is. Izanami was an asspull.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Kabuto smacks him. This isn't getting passed White Rage. Kabuto showed the brothers before, how superior he is. Izanami was an asspull.



How do you know that. They couldn't use lethal force, and the Mangekyou is nearly entirely lethal.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How do you know that. They couldn't use lethal force, and the Mangekyou is nearly entirely lethal.



Kabuto didn't want to hurt Sasuke either. MS techs surely are lethal, but when Kabuto's arsenal counters everything Sasuke's got, what's the point? 

How does he counter White rage?


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Kabuto didn't want to hurt Sasuke either. MS techs surely are lethal, but when Kabuto's arsenal counters everything Sasuke's got, what's the point?
> 
> How does he counter White rage?



Kabuto's arsenal doesn't counter Sauce at all. Kabuto isn't immortal. He can shed his skin, but that doesn't work if he's killed by a myriad of burning spikes.

White rage can be interrupted now that Sasuke has knowledge. Amaterasu or an arrow will do.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Avoid comparing being impaled multiple times with giant Amaterasu spikes to being hit in the fireproof wing with an Amaterasu that Itachi was going to turn off before it did fatal damage. They're different.



Hardly, observe the panel and compare it to this one: Sasuke did that *before* Itachi "[turned] off" the flames.
​So Sasuke managed to use this jutsu *whilst *he was burning. _(Dunno where you got "fireproof" from.)_

So Kabuto with superior reflexes and a superior form of using natural energy (SM>CS) can do that feat, or even better.

Lets not forget his insane regeneration:



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually it is a more ridiculous combination than [Nikushimi] outlined. Indeed Kabuto has Karin and the White Snake's healing. However he has more, his own healing (he's obviously not constrained by chakra now) as well as the Sage Mode healing. Bear in mind the Sage Mode will rapidly boost all the aforesaid, this is also supported by the databook.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hardly, observe the panel and compare it to this one: Sasuke did that *before* Itachi "[turned] off" the flames.
> ​So Sasuke managed to use this jutsu *whilst *he was burning. _(Dunno where you got "fireproof" from.)_
> 
> So Kabuto with superior reflexes and a superior form of using natural energy (SM>CS) can do that feat, or even better.
> ...



You don't understand that there's a difference between being IMPALED and being lit on fire. Sure if Sasuke was going to just stick to basic Amaterasu, Kabuto could handle it. When Sasuke shapes it into spike form and shoves it through Kabuto's body in multiple places, problems arise.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You don't understand that there's a difference between being IMPALED and being lit on fire. Sure if Sasuke was going to just stick to basic Amaterasu, Kabuto could handle it. When Sasuke shapes it into spike form and shoves through Kabuto's body in multiple places, problems arise.



What's that going to do to Kabuto? He's got insane regeneration complimented by abilities such as modified 'hydrofication'* and the oral rebirth. On top of that the enhanced perception that the Sage Mode provides its users with.

*Rapidly boosted by Sage Mode. Also implies that he can mold his body shape to get out of tight jams.

Let us not forget he can modify the terrain if the Enton gets too much. He can use the same choice (Jiroubou) to disturb Sasuke's focus. On a higher level given the jutsu on the page would be rapidly enhanced due to the Sage Mode.

Though this is assuming being impaled is an issue. He is capable of avoiding Sasuke's fastest attack, so Sasuke's slower attacks aren't going to be an issue.

In short: it is very unlikely that Enton manipulation would do Kabuto in. Especially when he's got a lot of ways to deal with it.


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

CS2 Wing is considered fireproof because it tanked Itachi's Katon with relative ease. It also protected Sasuke from C2 Kagura where it was destroyed.

SM doesn't make Kabuto immune to Amaterasu, I mean hell KCM Naruto didn't think he could tank Amaterasu.

Enton negates Muki Tensei, Itachi resisted Hakugeki, Mugen Ousa can be countered by the brothers using clones or the how they did it canonically.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> CS2 Wing is considered fireproof because it tanked Itachi's Katon with relative ease.
> 
> It also protected Sasuke from C2 Kagura where it was destroyed.
> 
> SM doesn't make Kabuto immune to Amaterasu, I mean hell KCM Naruto didn't think he could tank Amaterasu.



All that suggests is that a pseudo SM is capable of tanking Katon jutsu well, which only has more positive implications for Kabuto here. 

There was an assertion that Kabuto was immune to Amaterasu?


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All that suggests is that a pseudo SM is capable of tanking Katon jutsu well, which only has more positive implications for Kabuto here.
> 
> There was an assertion that Kabuto was immune to Amaterasu?


Pseduo-SM or not, it was an extra limb that seemed fireproof. It doesn't mean Kabuto's limbs are capable of the same thing. He instantly stopped in his tracks when Sasuke made the Amaterasu ring which heavily implies he doesn't want to get anywhere near that.

Nope, quite the opposite actually. 

And impaling is a big problem, because if both brothers surround him with Amaterasu, he's getting impaled from every single direction. Good luck dodging that. Oral Rebirth is useless in that situation and did I care to mention Amaterasu is faster then any of Kabuto's techniques?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Pseduo-SM or not, it was an extra limb that seemed fireproof. It doesn't mean Kabuto's limbs are capable of the same thing. He instantly stopped in his tracks when Sasuke made the Amaterasu ring which heavily implies he doesn't want to get anywhere near that.



Fireproof is speculation, but we know it is a pseudo-SM. So if that can give durability which makes us assert that an extra limb is fireproof, then it can only have positive implications for Kabuto. He does have an actual Sage Mode, after all. 



> And impaling is a big problem, because if both brothers surround him with Amaterasu, he's getting impaled from every single direction. Good luck dodging that. Oral Rebirth is useless in that situation



Oral rebirth is all but the only counter. He can just change the landscape. With SM perception, he'll have more than enough time to prep such a thing.

Amaterasu is dependent on focus, Kabuto has many ways to react to that. Especially when it is canon that sensors (and apparently non sensors like Ay) can anticipate Amaterasu.


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Fireproof is speculation, but we know it is a pseudo-SM. So if that can give durability which makes us assert that an extra limb is fireproof, then it can only have positive implications for Kabuto. He does have an actual Sage Mode, after all.


Not really, it tanked a Katon so we can consider it somewhat fireproof. That's what fireproof is right? 

We can't just give Kabuto that feat because he has the real SM which CS is based on. I mean should we give Hashirama all Jiraiya's feats because he has perfect SM and Jiraiya doesn't...


> Oral rebirth is all but the only counter. He can just change the landscape. With SM perception, he'll have more than enough time to prep such a thing.
> 
> Amaterasu is dependent on focus, Kabuto has many ways to react to that. Especially when it is canon that sensors (and apparently non sensors like Ay) can anticipate Amaterasu.


Amaterasu forced the landscape back to normal. He even noted this and stopped using Muki Tensei after. I doubt he can block LOS with Muki Tensei faster then Amaterasu travels. I mean it's basically as fast as V2 A (not quite) which is pretty frickkin fast.

The point is, the brothers can engulf his surrroundings in Amaterasu faster then Kabuto can pull off most his techniques (which also negates muki tensei) and then Sasuke can impale him multiple times from every single direction. Oral Rebirth is useless there, Kabuto dies


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Not really, it tanked a Katon so we can consider it somewhat fireproof. That's what fireproof is right?
> 
> We can't just give Kabuto that feat because he has the real SM which CS is based on. I mean should we give Hashirama all Jiraiya's feats because he has perfect SM and Jiraiya doesn't...



It tanked a Katon, but that means the durability it provides makes flames useless against the CS.

Sage Mode provides the same powers to all users, so we can generalise *Sage Mode* attributes. However *unique* attributes such as Mokuton, oil etc can't be generalised. 

We know an pseudo SM (CS) can tank a Katon, so it means an actual SM can tank it too. On top of that it provides its own form of healing. The SM user ITT has other forms of healing too, which SM rapidly enhances.



> Amaterasu forced the landscape back to normal. He even noted this and stopped using Muki Tensei after. I doubt he can block LOS with Muki Tensei faster then Amaterasu travels. I mean it's basically as fast as V2 A (not quite) which is pretty frickkin fast.
> 
> The point is, the brothers can engulf his surrroundings in Amaterasu faster then Kabuto can pull off most his techniques (which also negates muki tensei) and then Sasuke can impale him multiple times from every single direction. Oral Rebirth is useless there, Kabuto dies



Who said anything about Muki Tensei? 
V2 A speed may be required if Kabuto plans to avoid it point blank without doing anything to disturb Sasuke/Itachi's focus. However with chakra sensing and the immense perceptual increase SM provides (along with its other benefits), Kabuto should be able to anticipate Amaterasu well in time. 
Nagato showed sensors can detect Amaterasu, so Kabuto a sage sensor will be able to do it just as easily. 

Overall Amaterasu and Enton won't be a problem for Kabuto.


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It tanked a Katon, but that means the durability it provides makes flames useless against the CS.
> 
> Sage Mode provides the same powers to all users, so we can generalise *Sage Mode* attributes. However *unique* attributes such as Mokuton, oil etc can't be generalised.
> 
> We know an pseudo SM (CS) can tank a Katon, so it means an actual SM can tank it too. On top of that it provides its own form of healing. The SM user ITT has other forms of healing too, which SM rapidly enhances.


Amaterasu is bar none the strongest Katon by far.

The Katon Sasuke tanked was a C-rank from a dying Itachi. The Kages were scared of Madara's Katons which are still weaker then Amaterasu. Nothing suggest or implies Kabuto can survive or tank Amaterasu. Once again quite the opposite going by him stopping his attack after Sasuke's ring of fire. Even if SM boosts durability, KCM Naruto who should be more durable then SM Naruto was still wary of Amaterasu so yeah 


> Who said anything about Muki Tensei?
> V2 A speed may be required if Kabuto plans to avoid it point blank without doing anything to disturb Sasuke/Itachi's focus. However with chakra sensing and the immense perceptual increase SM provides (along with its other benefits), Kabuto should be able to anticipate Amaterasu well in time.
> Nagato showed sensors can detect Amaterasu, so Kabuto a sage sensor will be able to do it just as easily.
> 
> Overall Amaterasu and Enton won't be a problem for Kabuto.


What other techniques can Kabuto alter the landscape with? Sawabi No Mai? 

Anticipate, not dodge. Once again even if he dodges what does he do when the brothers fill his surroundings with Amaterasu and Sasuke manipulates it to catch him from every direction? Answer my question please.

If you want to play that card.

None of Kabuto's techniques will be a problem for the brothers, they on the defensive the whole time to buy time for Izanami and they dealt with his techniques every single time. Kabuto scored a hit on Itachi with Muki Tensei because he had a lack of knowledge (not here) and the second hit on Itachi was because he was using Izanami which is not relevant here.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Amaterasu is bar none the strongest Katon by far.
> 
> The Katon Sasuke tanked was a C-rank from a dying Itachi. The Kages were scared of Madara's Katons which are still weaker then Amaterasu. Nothing suggest or implies Kabuto can survive or tank Amaterasu. Once again quite the opposite going by him stopping his attack after Sasuke's ring of fire.



Sasuke revealed that Amaterasu is an Enton, not a Katon.

Rank doesn't equate to the power of the jutsu, it just tells you how hard a jutsu is to learn. 

Whose talking about tanking Amaterasu?



> What other techniques can Kabuto alter the landscape with? Sawabi No Mai?
> 
> Anticipate, not dodge. Once again even if he dodges what does he do when the brothers fill his surroundings with Amaterasu and Sasuke manipulates it to catch him from every direction? Answer my question please.



There is Jiroubou's jutsu.

If he anticipates it at a good enough time, he'll be able to dodge it. Possibly with a Senpou: Shunshin or just do that Jiroubou did to disturb everyone's focus. 

Your question was answered, spamming Amaterasu will be pretty silly if Kabuto can alter the landscape in a fashion that sends the flames towards the bros. 
Being a snake user, he can use jutsu like this to set them up for something bad.

Though alternatively as he's going all out ITT, nothing stops a White Rage followed by Kimimaro's jutsu.



> None of Kabuto's techniques will be a problem for the brothers, they on the defensive the whole time to buy time for Izanami and they dealt with his techniques every single time. Kabuto scored a hit on Itachi with Muki Tensei because he had a lack of knowledge (not here) and the second hit on Itachi was because he was using Izanami which is not relevant here.



Every jutsu Kabuto used was a problem for the brothers. As you say, he forced them in the defensive and forced them to opt for Izanami. This is all while Kabuto wanted to ensure that Sasuke was not harmed. Here, Kabuto doesn't mind who he harms.


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## eyeknockout (Apr 12, 2013)

itachi solos this with high difficulty

sage kabuto will be sealed inside the bottle


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## Ersa (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke revealed that Amaterasu is an Enton, not a Katon.
> 
> Rank doesn't equate to the power of the jutsu, it just tells you how hard a jutsu is to learn.
> 
> Whose talking about tanking Amaterasu?


Generally yes, but people think Raikiri > Chidori because of rank and there's no denying that sometimes rank does matter. Most S-A rank jutsu are far superior to their B-C rank counterparts. I mean compare Madara's Katon to the C rank Gokyaku. There's a massive difference.

Anyway it matters not, all we know is Amaterasu is the most dangerous Katon. It's certainly dangerous for Kabuto.



> There is Jiroubou's jutsu.
> 
> If he anticipates it at a good enough time, he'll be able to dodge it. Possibly with a Senpou: Shunshin or just do that Jiroubou did to disturb everyone's focus.
> 
> ...


Kabuto's Shunshin is nowhere near V2 A's, I hope you're not trying to say that. Amaterasu activates way faster then Jirobo's slow technique. You are really underestimating it's speed. Kabuto is not going to be able to 
- make seals
- split the ground
faster then the brothers look at him and activate it. 

Itachi resisted White Rage, he can do it again. Not to mention Amaterasu is faster then Hakugeki. Or Sasuke with full knowledge can probably shoot it with an arrow or something.



> Every jutsu Kabuto used was a problem for the brothers. As you say, he forced them in the defensive and forced them to opt for Izanami. This is all while Kabuto wanted to ensure that Sasuke was not harmed. Here, Kabuto doesn't mind who he harms.


You misunderstanding my point. They chose to be on the defensive. Going offensive might've meant they killed Kabuto. Sasuke even says to Itachi that going defensive they might actually lose the fight.

Kabuto didn't want to kill Sasuke but he obviously had no qualms about harming him. Notice he shot the Suiton at him? And he was not holding back on Itachi. So it was a relatively unrestricted Kabuto vs Itachi and Sasuke on the defensive and they still won. Now it's the same Kabuto basically vs a BL Sasuke and Itachi. You think this changes nothing?


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## Stermor (Apr 13, 2013)

really people are forgetting kabuto can easily travel through the earth.. enton or any form of that.. is not hitting kabuto because he already proved he can dogde it in the canon fight.. 

it will not corner or catch him, since he can just relocate through the walls.. 

sasuke spam attack are not going to work on somebody like kabuto.. 

really the only reason the uchiha brother are going to win this is because itachi is going to land a totsuka strike eventually..


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## Vergil642 (Apr 13, 2013)

Stermor said:


> really people are forgetting kabuto can easily travel through the earth.. enton or any form of that.. is not hitting kabuto because he already proved he can dogde it in the canon fight..



Yet Amaterasu everywhere (and Sasuke can pretty easily keep it around) means no Muki Tensei. Also Kabuto has no underground speed feats. Why can't Sasuke just make the Enton impale his slithery ass underground? Or Itachi do the same but with Totsuka?



> it will not corner or catch him, since he can just relocate through the walls..



See above. Also Itachi and Sasuke already showed they can massively inhibit his movement in the manga with a Susanoo attack. If Sasuke used an Enton laced arrow instead he could just have the flames go through Kabuto's body internally from where it pierced his snake-tail thing.



> sasuke spam attack are not going to work on somebody like kabuto..



Yeah, they kind of are.



> really the only reason the uchiha brother are going to win this is because itachi is going to land a totsuka strike eventually..



Pshaw, Sasuke can solo this too, probably with less difficulty.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 13, 2013)

Kabuto uses temple of Nirvana genjutsu, Itachi and Sasuke fall asleep gg


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 13, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Generally yes, but people think Raikiri > Chidori because of rank and there's no denying that sometimes rank does matter. Most S-A rank jutsu are far superior to their B-C rank counterparts. I mean compare Madara's Katon to the C rank Gokyaku. There's a massive difference.
> 
> Anyway it matters not, all we know is Amaterasu is the most dangerous Katon. It's certainly dangerous for Kabuto.



Yet Gai spoke of Raikiri and Chidori as if they were one in the same. It might mean more powerful jutsu are harder to learn.

It matters, Amaterasu is an Enton, not a Katon. Enton refers to the black fire Amaterasu spawns. 
I'm not saying Amaterasu isn't dangerous, however. I used your point to show why Katon hitting Kabuto wouldn't be game over for him.



> Kabuto's Shunshin is nowhere near V2 A's, I hope you're not trying to say that. Amaterasu activates way faster then Jirobo's slow technique. You are really underestimating it's speed. Kabuto is not going to be able to
> - make seals
> - split the ground
> faster then the brothers look at him and activate it.
> ...



Who said his Shunshin was at that level? Amaterasu is as fast as the user's focus, if that is disturbed, then Amaterasu takes time. Further how do you measure slow from panels? All Kabuto has to do is make him touch the ground. 
With Sage reflexes, Kabuto is capable of doing that movement, especially when he'll be able to feel the chakra pressure of Amaterasu before hand.



> You misunderstanding my point. They chose to be on the defensive. Going offensive might've meant they killed Kabuto. Sasuke even says to Itachi that going defensive they might actually lose the fight.



They didn't choose to go in the defensive, they were forced. They just couldn't kill him, that doesn't limit offensive capacity. The moment Kabuto showed their efforts were futile, they resorted to Iznami. Furthermore Kabuto had restrictions of his own; he was trying to make sure Sasuke was not harmed.



> Kabuto didn't want to kill Sasuke but he obviously had no qualms about harming him. Notice he shot the Suiton at him? And he was not holding back on Itachi. So it was a relatively unrestricted Kabuto vs Itachi and Sasuke on the defensive and they still won. Now it's the same Kabuto basically vs a BL Sasuke and Itachi. You think this changes nothing?



Suiton didn't harm Sasuke; Kabuto said he wasn't going to harm Sasuke. 
Unrestricted Kabuto means he has no issues killing either brother, which means he won't make special arrangements to keep them alive. So most likely the only changes here will be that Kabuto will likely finish the fight more efficiently.


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## Stermor (Apr 13, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Yet Amaterasu everywhere (and Sasuke can pretty easily keep it around) means no Muki Tensei. Also Kabuto has no underground speed feats. Why can't Sasuke just make the Enton impale his slithery ass underground? Or Itachi do the same but with Totsuka?



uhm you do understand he can also just use the underground fish projection?? and uhm he was fast enough that neither sannin considered going after him back in part 1.. so really there is no reason kabuto can't travel freely arround the cave... 

uhm there is also the idee that sasuke can't know where kabuto is underground?? sharingan has basic chakra sight.. it is not going to see something deep underground.. 



Vergil642 said:


> See above. Also Itachi and Sasuke already showed they can massively inhibit his movement in the manga with a Susanoo attack. If Sasuke used an Enton laced arrow instead he could just have the flames go through Kabuto's body internally from where it pierced his snake-tail thing.



uhm nope they really did not.. itachi proved he could counter kabuto's attack.. he really did jack shit about stopping kabuto from moving.. 



Vergil642 said:


> Yeah, they kind of are.



nope.. kabuto is not an idiot.. he has the means, the intelligence and the reactions to easily circomvent sasuke hole arsenal.. really the only way sasuke is going to beat kabuto is when he's asleep.. 



Vergil642 said:


> Pshaw, Sasuke can solo this too, probably with less difficulty.



nope.. sasuke would have already died to the first attack in the cannon fight..


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## blk (Apr 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> V2 A speed may be required if Kabuto plans to avoid it point blank without doing anything to disturb Sasuke/Itachi's focus. However with chakra sensing and the immense perceptual increase SM provides (along with its other benefits), Kabuto should be able to anticipate Amaterasu well in time.
> Nagato showed sensors can detect Amaterasu, so Kabuto a sage sensor will be able to do it just as easily.
> 
> Overall Amaterasu and Enton won't be a problem for Kabuto.



The ability to anticipate Amaterasu is useless if Kabuto can't move faster than how the brothers move the focus point of their eyes (like when in part 1 Sasuke could know Lee's movements in advance thanks to the Sharingan, but still couldn't dodge them because of his lack of speed).

The above is confirmed by the fact that Sasuke could do a 360 turn while Kabuto was only able to stop his run [1].

Nothing would have stopped Sasuke to hit Kabuto instead of make a circle of Amaterasu if he had killing intent.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 14, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm you do understand he can also just use the underground fish projection?? and uhm he was fast enough that neither sannin considered going after him back in part 1.. so really there is no reason kabuto can't travel freely arround the cave...
> 
> uhm there is also the idee that sasuke can't know where kabuto is underground?? sharingan has basic chakra sight.. it is not going to see something deep underground..



One Sannin had broken ribs and a broken leg and the other had just busted out her most chakra-exhausting move. Neither had any intention of chasing him or Orochimaru and beyond that *they can't sense Kabuto underground*.

You don't even know how deep underground Kabuto goes. You are literally assuming everything here.



> uhm nope they really did not.. itachi proved he could counter kabuto's attack.. he really did jack shit about stopping kabuto from moving..



Alright then, they restricted his movements and inhibited his full mobility. He was unable to manoeuvre properly and subsequently got his snake-tail thing shot by an arrow.

If Itachi and Sasuke have Amaterasu to work with then Sasuke alone can do this, leaving Itachi free to spear Kabuto with Totsuka.



> nope.. kabuto is not an idiot.. he has the means, the intelligence and the reactions to easily circomvent sasuke hole arsenal.. really the only way sasuke is going to beat kabuto is when he's asleep..



No he doesn't. Oral Rebirth doesn't even work because Sasuke can use Kagatsuchi to make any Amaterasu that he uses on Kabuto immediately spear through him and set fire to his insides as much as his outsides. Hiding underground doesn't stop Sasuke as he can spear Kabuto with an Enton blade and when underground Kabuto can't really do shit to attack. Using Doton to move earth covered with Amaterasu isn't going to work as Sasuke can use Amaterasu or Kagatsuchi to attack him while he makes handseals and that also rules out effective and reliable use of ANY handseal based Jutsu including Hakugeki.

And the whole time Sasuke is doing this just by thinking, he has Itachi to back him up as well.



> nope.. sasuke would have already died to the first attack in the cannon fight..



Because he and Itachi weren't doing anything as they were waiting for Itachi's Genjutsu to activate. This time they're going to be out for blood and Kabuto isn't going to get chances to freely attack them like that again.


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## Stermor (Apr 14, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> One Sannin had broken ribs and a broken leg and the other had just busted out her most chakra-exhausting move. Neither had any intention of chasing him or Orochimaru and beyond that *they can't sense Kabuto underground*.
> 
> You don't even know how deep underground Kabuto goes. You are literally assuming everything here.



uhm aren't you... you are suggesting the sharingan can see underground far enough to see kabuto?? while they couldn't even detect him while he wasn't underground?? lol... 

also you do understand jiriaya has the perfect move to counter undergound travel (yomi numa?) and he thought it wouldn't make a difference.. 



Vergil642 said:


> Alright then, they restricted his movements and inhibited his full mobility. He was unable to manoeuvre properly and subsequently got his snake-tail thing shot by an arrow.



they did not... kabuto decided to show up and attack.. the uchiha brother countered.. and they shot his tail. which did jack shit to kabuto.. really not seeing why you would see this as a win?? they used there fastest attacks and got nothing for it.. 



Vergil642 said:


> If Itachi and Sasuke have Amaterasu to work with then Sasuke alone can do this, leaving Itachi free to spear Kabuto with Totsuka.



i agree this might be possible.. but purely because i think itachi might be able to hit kabuto eventually.. spamming amaterasu in a cave against somebody that can so easily counter is just stupid waste of chakra.. 



Vergil642 said:


> No he doesn't. Oral Rebirth doesn't even work because Sasuke can use Kagatsuchi to make any Amaterasu that he uses on Kabuto immediately spear through him and set fire to his insides as much as his outsides. Hiding underground doesn't stop Sasuke as he can spear Kabuto with an Enton blade and when underground Kabuto can't really do shit to attack. Using Doton to move earth covered with Amaterasu isn't going to work as Sasuke can use Amaterasu or Kagatsuchi to attack him while he makes handseals and that also rules out effective and reliable use of ANY handseal based Jutsu including Hakugeki.



ye uhm no.. orochimaru did it while he was in cut in half.. also why would he need to when he can just liquify arround it.. 

hiding underground does help.. amaterasu from sasuke has never shown to be able to burn anything ever!!! how can you say it now instantly burns through rock.. and then we come to the point they first have to be able to find kabuto.. which they can't.. 

and ye i'm well aware kabuto cannot attack underground(bone forest for instance).. but really going underground is just a means to not get cornered by amaterasu.. 

again kabuto used several techniques without that happening so i really don't see why he can't do this now(some even without line of sight)



Vergil642 said:


> And the whole time Sasuke is doing this just by thinking, he has Itachi to back him up as well.



this hole time sasuke was doing jack shit.. nothing sasuke doing would be more then a minor inconvience to kabuto.. 



Vergil642 said:


> Because he and Itachi weren't doing anything as they were waiting for Itachi's Genjutsu to activate. This time they're going to be out for blood and Kabuto isn't going to get chances to freely attack them like that again.



sure.. or they wouldn't know how to find him?? because kabuto can hide??that why they could only counter....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

blk said:


> The ability to anticipate Amaterasu is useless if Kabuto can't move faster than how the brothers move the focus point of their eyes (like when in part 1 Sasuke could know Lee's movements in advance thanks to the Sharingan, but still couldn't dodge them because of his lack of speed).
> 
> The above is confirmed by the fact that Sasuke could do a 360 turn while Kabuto was only able to stop his run [1].
> 
> Nothing would have stopped Sasuke to hit Kabuto instead of make a circle of Amaterasu if he had killing intent.



Amaterasu gives off an obvious chakra pressure, Kabuto's jutsu will be as enhanced as his physical attributes which has implications for a Shunshun. Just to note, a Genin in part 1 isn't comparable to a Sage.

Indeed Sasuke could do a 360 turn on the stationary environment, _not_ on Kabuto himself. 

You say nothing would've stopped Sasuke from using it on Kabuto. However look above, there are clear differences with what Sasuke ignited and Kabuto. The cave was stationary and Kabuto has rapidly enhanced perception (inclusive of sensing) and rapidly enhanced movement; that gives him a shot. 

Worst comes to worst, oral rebirth is an excellent counter.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 14, 2013)

I love how when Kabuto was about to place a tag in Itachi, Sasuke reacted trying to hit Kabuto from a meager 10feet away and Kabuto dodged and it hit Itachi..... good teamwork.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Easily hit him? Kabuto was dodging duel Susanno users and Sasukes fastest attacks via his sensing powers.


He dodged Sasuke's chidori lance, Susano'o fist and arrow.

He failed the dodge the arrow when It was used in conjunction with Itachi's magatama distractions.

Sage sensing has its limits like everything else, Itachi easily exploited it. Overloaded it with multiple attacks and Kabuto couldn't sense the arrow coming. 



> Took the combination of both Susanos to eventually nail his tail which keep in mind kabuto has insane healing properties which means jack shit. Kabuto can also liquify his body if needed


His tail is a part of his body, like his head. And they hit him on the tail for the sole purpose of capturing him.
Had it been their intention to kill him, that arrow could easily be aimed @ his face. And he'd die where he stood.




> Kishi made it perfectly clear that kabuto is simply on another tier even to Edo Itachi.


I think he made it perfectly clear that the only way Kabuto could pose a challenge to Itachi was when Itachi was heavily hindered.

Even Kabuto himself disagreed with you. 
I mean, how many times did Kabuto say that they couldn't kill him because they needed him alive ? 
If he believed he was too much for them, then why would he need to remind them that they needed him alive on more than one occasion ? Or ask for Sasuke's cooperation to take down Itachi for that matter.






> How the hell can you say kabuto did not have similar limitations. He only mentioned it numerous times throught the fight...


Kabuto went all out. Itachi never attacked Kabuto directly. He didn't use Amaterasu or stage 4 Susano'o.







> someone who can:
> Avoid genjutsu via sensing
> dodge dual Susannoo users
> captured the king in his own game at genjutsu
> ...



Well, the manga has shown us that Itachi & Sasuke were able corner him without going all out and with lack of killing intent.

So yeah, in a match without restrictions, Kabuto dies within a couple of seconds.


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## blk (Apr 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Amaterasu gives off an obvious chakra pressure, Kabuto's jutsu will be as enhanced as his physical attributes which has implications for a Shunshun. Just to note, a Genin in part 1 isn't comparable to a Sage.
> 
> Indeed Sasuke could do a 360 turn on the stationary environment, _not_ on Kabuto himself.
> 
> ...



Compared to how fast Sasuke ignited the enviroment around himself, Kabuto was basically stationary.

In order to avoid Amaterasu, he would need to have similar speed to V2 A, but he isn't even significantly faster than the brothers.

Oral Rebirth counters Amaterasu, i agree.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

blk said:


> Compared to how fast Sasuke ignited the enviroment around himself, Kabuto was basically stationary.
> 
> In order to avoid Amaterasu, he would need to have similar speed to V2 A, but he isn't even significantly faster than the brothers.
> 
> Oral Rebirth counters Amaterasu, i agree.



Kabuto was moving....

V2 A speed is just more than sufficient. However sensing the flames (done well before the focus) with a Senjutsu enhanced Shunshun*, should get the job done. Or Kabuto can use oral rebirth creatively e.g. having the snake on the other side spit him out.

*Shunshin in the :

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
> Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al
> 
> ...



So Kabuto with his already enhanced body can vitalise his body with superior chakra to move at faster speeds. If he wants to move far away, quickly, he'd just use his unlimited reserves. However moving a little bit away when an Amaterasu user is focused is sufficient as 




Amaterasu can only be effective as a supplementary jutsu in this fight. Kabuto has too much to defend against it for it to be the bros' primary offensive jutsu.


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## blk (Apr 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto was moving....
> 
> V2 A speed is just more than sufficient. However sensing the flames (done well before the focus) with a Senjutsu enhanced Shunshun*, should get the job done. Or Kabuto can use oral rebirth creatively e.g. having the snake on the other side spit him out.
> 
> ...



Kabuto was moving, but didn't shown the reactions to dodge Amaterasu in the case that Sasuke would have aimed at him.
He could only stop his run, while Sasuke could encircle himself and Itachi.

Ei didn't simply moved a little bit away, he also disappeared from Sasuke's line of sight.
Kabuto can certainly avoid Amaterasu for some time, but the focus point will reach him eventually (since he is not fast enough for disappear from their line of sight, like Ei did).

I agree that Amaterasu will not be the primary offensive jutsu, since Oral Rebirth makes it kind of useless and Itachi's stage 4 Susano'o can end the match in a very small time; relying on Amaterasu will be more a waste of time than anything.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2013)

blk said:


> Kabuto was moving, but didn't shown the reactions to dodge Amaterasu in the case that Sasuke would have aimed at him.
> He could only stop his run, while Sasuke could encircle himself and Itachi.
> 
> Ei didn't simply moved a little bit away, he also disappeared from Sasuke's line of sight.
> ...



Characters in this manga act on a "need basis". What this means is they'll only react or act if they need to. Amaterasu was not being aimed at Kabuto, so he had no reaction to alter the way he was running.

He stepped away from Sasuke's _focal_ point, which is where Amaterasu ignites as per se Cee.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Shii: (Flames that erupt wherever he focuses his gaze... Amaterasu! // This is...!)​ sword's thickness would look as thick as it looked in this panel.

Note only the focal point of the Amaterasu users have ever ignited. For example that little piece of Enton that aimed for Sasuke was represented the object of Itachi's focal point.



The focal point will always reach him, but he'll be able to better sense the pressure of the chakra than a non sensor like Ay. How Kabuto chooses to do this (well timed heavy chakra Senpou: Shunshin or oral rebirth) is up to him.

Itachi's stage 4 Susanoo will make things tricky. But without the desire to save Sasuke's body, Kabuto can simply crank things up which would change a lot. E.G. he can use White Right to blind and hold the brothers down while he sets up an attack to take both brothers out right away such as Muki Tensei or Kimimaro's bones.


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## joshhookway (Apr 14, 2013)

Kabuto is too fast for Amaterasu. In the manga Sasuke didn't use amaterasu, because he knew Kabuto was too fast. Kabuto dodged Arrows and Susanoo's disks.

Itachi and Sasuke are screwed if Kabuto uses Hakugeki and then collaspes the cave.


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## blk (Apr 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Characters in this manga act on a "need basis". What this means is they'll only react or act if they need to. Amaterasu was not being aimed at Kabuto, so he had no reaction to alter the way he was running.



Yes, but this doesn't mean that we can assume that if Kabuto needed, he could have avoided Amaterasu.



> He stepped away from Sasuke's _focal_ point, which is where Amaterasu ignites as per se Cee.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



For first, the "little piece of Enton" seemed bigger than a tree to me; i think that you underestimate the AoE of Amaterasu [1].

For second, Ei avoided Amaterasu because not only he could slip away from Sasuke's focal point, but also because the latter couldn't follow him with his sight: hence he would have never been able to hit Ei.

Kabuto is different, because while i agree that with sensing and enhanced Shunshin he should be able to avoid the first "piece" of Enton, the brothers can follow his movements (he is not faster than their sight). Therefore, sooner or later they'll get him with Amaterasu.



> Itachi's stage 4 Susanoo will make things tricky. But without the desire to save Sasuke's body, Kabuto can simply crank things up which would change a lot. E.G. he can use White Right to blind and hold the brothers down while he sets up an attack to take both brothers out right away such as Muki Tensei or Kimimaro's bones.



With knowledge, they can counter Hakugeki no Jutsu just by running away from it the moment Kabuto starts the tecnique, or by using a faster one (Katons, Magatamas, etc.) aimed at the latter for impede the completion of the jutsu.
Further, Itachi already countered it in canon, so it wouldn't be of much use either way.


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## Shattering (Apr 15, 2013)

Susano'o + Amaterasu GG, Sasuke can solo this at the speed of light, it's canon that Kabuto can't avoid amaterasu, reread the moment Sasuke protected Itachi with it, it's obvious.

Any of the two brothers can win this without problems, both of them is overkill, with killing intent Kabutard has no chance.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 15, 2013)

> Grimmjowsensei said:
> 
> 
> > I think he made it perfectly clear that the only way Kabuto could pose a challenge to Itachi was when Itachi was heavily hindered
> ...


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 15, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> > When was it made perfectly clear that the only way for kabuto to compete with Itachi was when he was hindered? Both of them had there own agendas durring the battle. What kabuto gained in knowledge of studying Itachi, Itachi gained the advantage of being and edo.
> > l
> 
> 
> ...


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## Trojan (Apr 15, 2013)

I think Kabuto is stronger than them and he will win.
Without Izanami they have no chance. Kabuto had already defeated all of their jutsus.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 15, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kabuto actually got to go all out and showcase his complete arsenal, itachi on the other hand couldn't use any of his trump cads because all of them would one shot Kabuto, he was restricted to basically base against a sm user, it amazes me how ppl ignore's this.
> 
> Kabuto had full knowledge and couldn't be killed, itachi had no knowledge and only had the advantage of being a Edo which isn't amazing against someone who can rewrite the talisman.



How did kabuto go all out but not Itachi? This makes zero sense. Let's use some common sense here. If Itachi was restricted to not killing but capturing kabuto in Izanami then kabuto was also restricted in not sealing or ending Edo tensie on his own since he wanted to capture Itachi again. Also its almost laughable to call someone going all out when they dont' use there strongest jutsus

Restricted to base abilities since his other jutsus would on shot him? Seriously can you be that delusional? The only reason Itachi did not use genjutsu or Ama is because Kabuto has counters to each of those abilities as shown.



> Kabuto obviously explained that to them because he feels they can actually kill him, he also knows this could be used to his advantage.
> 
> I agree it doesn't mean Kabuto felt he couldn't beat itachi on his own, however it does mean Kabuto respects itachi's power and wasn't willing to take any chances,



I'm not going to debate this part since its meaningless anyway to the outcome. I will agree though that someone on Itachi's calibure posseses a threat to just about anyone



> Kabuto showed he is on par with either uchiha individually but if they both take him on, and the uchiha also gets the privilege of actually having knowledge this time, he dies  basically 100% Of the time he literally has no chance.



Kabuto showed he was on par if not greater then both the Uchicha brothers at the same time. How was sasuke on par with kabuto when he would have been killed immidiatly or several times durring the fight? Same could be said for Itachi.

The only jutus the two brothers have that pose a threat to kabuto is Susannoo which sasukes has no chance of winning. Itachi only hope is the sealing sword



> Kabuto hasn't shown the ability to fight along side his Edo's efficiently, the fact that he chose to stay in a cave while the technique was active speaks volumes and i could easily play this card and say itachi didn't use koto, totsuka or any other notable jutsu.



Granted we have not seen kabuto fight side by side with and edo yet however giving them free reign of there abilities is all thats needed. Hence the entire battle with the alliance. I don't think hiding in the cave has anything to do with what your trying to say here. It's almost the opposite. Hiding in the cave gives him protection from the sensors and allows him to controll a VAST amount of Edos at the time which one would assume takes incredible skill and time.



> Actually no it can't, because itachi restrictions where more harsh, yes Kabuto had restrictions but not as harsh as itachi's restrictions, Kabuto also had prep and knowledge on his side.



When did kabuto have prep? I must have missed this. Was Itachi not the one to suprise kabuto in the cave since he used Nagatos abilities to track kabuto? If kabuto had prep he would have set up numerous traps or whatever else he wanted. Itachi is the one who went there with a plan, granted he had no knowledge but that man had a plan with an unkillable body and limitless stamina



> Lol what good is having ms if you can't use any ms technique out of fear of killing your opponent,I could easily flip your conclusion on its head by saying if they where allowed to kill Kabuto he would of died in the first couple of minutes.



Except as posted and likned numerous times kabuto has counters to all of the MS jutsus. 



> It's like you wanted Kabuto to have every possible advantage in that match so he could win, the knowledge, prep or not being able to be killed wasn't enough? Lol you wanted him to have Edo tensei and take away itachi's Edo tensei while your at it and still keep all the restrictions on the bros



No I actually read and understood the fight(although it took me several times lol). Like I stated no one is denying that kabuto had incredible knowledge on both the brothers however what prep are you talking about? Kabuto was not trying to kill sasuke? Check? Kabuto was trying to recapture Itachi? Check

You fail to realize both sides were nearly equally handicapped.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

Remember using Senjutsu helps Kabuto recover and using Ninjutsu would make Sasuke/Itachi tire more. So Sasuke will tire as the fight goes on and Kabuto will never tire. That's one key factor worth noting.

This may not apply to Itachi, if its Edo Itachi ITT.


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## Bonly (Apr 15, 2013)

Not sure if this is suppose to be Edo Itachi or alive since OP never said which. Anyway all the Uchiha bro's have to do is keep Kabuto busy long enough to get quite a bit of fire going around them and then Sasuke can say good bye.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 15, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> How did kabuto go all out but not Itachi? This makes zero sense. Let's use some common sense here. If Itachi was restricted to not killing but capturing kabuto in Izanami then kabuto was also restricted in not sealing or ending Edo tensie on his own since he wanted to capture Itachi again. Also its almost laughable to call someone going all out when they dont' use there strongest jutsus.




The only jutsu Kabuto didn't use on the bros is Edo tensei, we all know Edo tensei strength varies on who he summons and aside from that you need prior knowledge and the bodies before going into battle to use it, clearly Kabuto would be stronger then anybody in the naruto verse as long as he can get the strongest ninjas dna, it is however not a testimony of his own skill, it's like me saying itachi is above hashi just because he has koto and can genjutsu him. 
 clearly that isn't a testament to itachi's real strength. 

Outside of Edo tensei Kabuto pulled out all the stops and didn't have to worry about killing itachi since he was a zombie. So as I said before yes Kabuto was restricted but In Terms of rewriting itachi's talisman he was able to use any means necessary, itachi on the other hand couldn't use any lethal attack, which is apart of his main arsenal.  


Complete_Ownage said:


> Restricted to base abilities since his other jutsus would on shot him? Seriously can you be that delusional? The only reason Itachi did not use genjutsu or Ama is because Kabuto has counters to each of those abilities as shown.



 

itachi was able to match Kabuto speed with sharingon precognition, you really believe he wouldn't tag him with totsuka, especially with sasuke limiting kabuto's running options with a Enton spam?

Itachi didn't use AMA because it would kill him, and couldn't use genjutsu because Kabuto was wearing lens caps thanks to his knowledge advantage.





Complete_Ownage said:


> Kabuto showed he was on par if not greater then both the Uchicha brothers at the same time. How was sasuke on par with kabuto when he would have been killed immidiatly or several times durring the fight? Same could be said for Itachi.
> 
> The only jutus the two brothers have that pose a threat to kabuto is Susannoo which sasukes has no chance of winning. Itachi only hope is the sealing sword


Sasuke was basically a non factor offensively because all of his ms jutsu's are lethal and they where not allowed to kill, so he was basically there as a support, however without the no kill restriction sasuke could arguably solo, Enton sword, and Enton spam in a small condense cave isn't going to end well for Kabuto.

Kabuto is not dodging 2 different amatarasu's at the same time, especially when sasuke can limit his get away options with Enton , Susano would honestly just be over kill.  



Complete_Ownage said:


> Granted we have not seen kabuto fight side by side with and edo yet however giving them free reign of there abilities is all thats needed. Hence the entire battle with the alliance. I don't think hiding in the cave has anything to do with what your trying to say here. It's almost the opposite. Hiding in the cave gives him protection from the sensors and allows him to controll a VAST amount of Edos at the time which one would assume takes incredible skill and time.



I'm at the opinion he hid because he needed to concentrate, to control such a vast army I think it's safe to assume it takes more strain, then to control just 2 Edo's like Orochimaru did, not to mention oro's Edo's in part 1 where more gimped and probably didn't require much concentration to control.


Complete_Ownage said:


> When did kabuto have prep? I must have missed this. Was Itachi not the one to suprise kabuto in the cave since he used Nagatos abilities to track kabuto? If kabuto had prep he would have set up numerous traps or whatever else he wanted. Itachi is the one who went there with a plan, granted he had no knowledge but that man had a plan with an unkillable body and limitless stamina


I guess prep isn't the correct term to use, but more like Kabuto had knowledge and a very practical defense to genjutsu.

Limitless stamina doesn't mean much when you factor in itachi didn't realy use any big jutsu against Kabuto, no amatarasu and only used the light forms of Susano in defense and a tsukiyomi after the match was over, so I don't see how unlimited stamina helped.


Complete_Ownage said:


> Except as posted and likned numerous times kabuto has counters to all of the MS jutsus.


Kabuto has no counter to amatarasu or a offensive onslaught from two susano's at the same time.



Complete_Ownage said:


> No I actually read and understood the fight(although it took me several times lol). Like I stated no one is denying that kabuto had incredible knowledge on both the brothers however what prep are you talking about? Kabuto was not trying to kill sasuke? Check? Kabuto was trying to recapture Itachi? Check



As I stated before sasuke was mostly there for support and couldn't use any lethal jutsu.

Kabuto had incredible knowledge a counter to genjutsu and they weren't allowed to kill him, izanami was the only option in such a situation, Kabuto would of beat literally anybody else in that situation because they wouldn't be able to force him to end Edo tensei.


Complete_Ownage said:


> You fail to realize both sides were nearly equally handicapped. Kabuto had the upper hand nearly the entire time until Izanami took effect



I don't see the handicap equal at all, itachi's genjutsu's where his only non lethal attacks, and Kabuto had lens caps on, every other jutsu itachi possessed was lethal and couldn't be used, on the other hand, Kabuto wanted to capture sasuke, but in terms of itachi he had the green light to use any force necessary.

With no knowledge on kabuto's techniques and with not being able to kill him who wouldn't have the upper hand? If the roles where reversed and Kabuto fought itachi with no knowledge he would lose from the first tsukiyomi, so although Kabuto had restrictions you can't downplay how much of a advantage knowledge grants.


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## Mayweather (Apr 15, 2013)

This is a joke, how is a high tier soloing two high tiers? with full knowledge? This isn't even debatable.

Sasuke could solo with mid to high diff, Kabuto isn't faster to dodge Amaterasu and won't be able to oral rebirth with Enton spikes/Totsuka blade/Enton blade jammed through his heart. Itachi being here makes this all the easier.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not sure if this is suppose to be Edo Itachi or alive since OP never said which. Anyway all the Uchiha bro's have to do is keep Kabuto busy long enough to get quite a bit of fire going around them and then Sasuke can say good bye.



Will Kirin do much to someone with the amount of regeneration Kabuto has?


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Will Kirin do much to someone with the amount of regeneration Kabuto has?



Regeneration won't do much for you if you die before you can use the ability


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Regeneration won't do much for you if you die before you can use the ability



I'm asking, with Kabuto's unique combinations of regeneration (which includes the Uzumaki healing/longevity) would it do much? Especially as all those regenerations are rapidly enhanced by SM, alongside SM's durability and healing.

This unique blend of durability allows Kabuto to tank a lot, why shouldn't Kirin be among those things? Especially with the forces of nature constantly healing him (plus his other constant healing)?


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## Bonly (Apr 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Will Kirin do much to someone with the amount of regeneration Kabuto has?



Im think he would. He hasn't been shown to regen from something of that level  from his own healing jutsu and Karin has never healed a person that has taken that much damage, nor has his durability be shown to tank that. Adding the boost of SM might do it but im not sure to what level it would boost it to and if said level would be enough to do so, and with him also having Suigetsu's ability, that might just have him off worst. But this is based on what we have seen though, maybe he could take it without much problems and regen from it or maybe he can't, I personally go with the latter.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 15, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> The only jutsu Kabuto didn't use on the bros is Edo tensei, we all know Edo tensei strength varies on who he summons and aside from that you need prior knowledge and the bodies before going into battle to use it, clearly Kabuto would be stronger then anybody in the naruto verse as long as he can get the strongest ninjas dna, it is however not a testimony of his own skill, it's like me saying itachi is above hashi just because he has koto and can genjutsu him.
> clearly that isn't a testament to itachi's real strength.



Granted both powers should be taken into consideration however thats where the similarites end. Koto was given to Itachi for one reason and purpose while Edo Tensie is something Kabuto can use utalize whenever prepped



> Outside of Edo tensei Kabuto pulled out all the stops and didn't have to worry about killing itachi since he was a zombie. So as I said before yes Kabuto was restricted but In Terms of rewriting itachi's talisman he was able to use any means necessary, itachi on the other hand couldn't use any lethal attack, which is apart of his main arsenal.



Kabuto could have gone around Itachi quite easily. He could have simply sealed him up when he the opportunities or simply ended the jutsu on Itachi making him irrelevant. He however wanted Itachi for himself since he knows his capabilities



> itachi was able to match Kabuto speed with sharingon precognition, you really believe he wouldn't tag him with totsuka, especially with sasuke limiting kabuto's running options with a Enton spam?



From what I remember didn't kabuto tag Itachi a few times durring there little scrimmages



> Itachi didn't use AMA because it would kill him, and couldn't use genjutsu because Kabuto was wearing lens caps thanks to his knowledge advantage.



Kabuto makes himself immune to genjutsu = 1/3rd of Itachis abilities
Kabuto has jutsus that make AMA useless - 2/3rd of Itachis abiltities
Kabto has sensing that if fighting 1v1 out paces Susannoo - All of Itachis abilties

It takes the combination of those two to impale Kabutos tail who has regeneration abilites, can liquify his body and etc




> Sasuke was basically a non factor offensively because all of his ms jutsu's are lethal and they where not allowed to kill, so he was basically there as a support, however without the no kill restriction sasuke could arguably solo, Enton sword, and Enton spam in a small condense cave isn't going to end well for Kabuto.



What Sasuke lacked in offense abilties as you say he simply made that up ten fold on defense from protecting himself and Itachi from the spikes, breaking free of genjtusu and etc

Except kabuto is vastly superior in reflexes and speed in a 1v1 situation. So yet again AMA is not doing shit to someone who has counters for it



> Kabuto is not dodging 2 different amatarasu's at the same time, especially when sasuke can limit his get away options with Enton , Susano would honestly just be over kill.



If he gets hit thats what oral rebirth is for. 


> I'm at the opinion he hid because he needed to concentrate, to control such a vast army I think it's safe to assume it takes more strain, then to control just 2 Edo's like Orochimaru did, not to mention oro's Edo's in part 1 where more gimped and probably didn't require much concentration to control.



That was the point I was trying to make




> Limitless stamina doesn't mean much when you factor in itachi didn't realy use any big jutsu against Kabuto, no amatarasu and only used the light forms of Susano in defense and a tsukiyomi after the match was over, so I don't see how unlimited stamina helped.



Like stated a hundred times in this thread...There was no need for basic genjutsu outside Izanami since Kabuto has a viable counter. There was no need to spam AMA since kabuto has viable counters for it . If it wasnt for his Edo body he would have been dead along time ago



> Kabuto has no counter to amatarasu or a offensive onslaught from two susano's at the same time.



1) Get off this AMA crap. It has been posted numerous times with links that he has viable counters for such a jutsu

2) As kabuto has shown he does not need to sit back and dodge duel Susannos. He has shown two jutsus that immobilze and work through Susanno that can either weaken or make the caster release the jutsu




> I don't see the handicap equal at all, itachi's genjutsu's where his only non lethal attacks, and Kabuto had lens caps on, every other jutsu itachi possessed was lethal and couldn't be used, on the other hand, Kabuto wanted to capture sasuke, but in terms of itachi he had the green light to use any force necessary.



I hate to tell you that any jutsu can be lethal. Hell a basic sword can be lethal if properlly used. The MS jutsus may have been godly to begin with in the series however every higher tier character has shown they can deal with such jutsus. Well except for a few



> With no knowledge on kabuto's techniques and with not being able to kill him who wouldn't have the upper hand? If the roles where reversed and Kabuto fought itachi with no knowledge he would lose from the first tsukiyomi, so although Kabuto had restrictions you can't downplay how much of a advantage knowledge grants.



I'm not downplaying anything. Knowledge is a wonderfull thing and could easily turn the tide to any battle. You act like Itachi and Sasuke had ZERO knowledge on kabuto. Yet Kabuto worked as a spy for the organization and gained all of Orochimarus abiltites. His abiltites were well know I would assume except for the SM part which he later gained and his new found abiltites he aquired via DNA enchancment


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Im think he would. He hasn't been shown to regen from something of that level  from his own healing jutsu and Karin has never healed a person that has taken that much damage, nor has his durability be shown to tank that. Adding the boost of SM might do it but im not sure to what level it would boost it to and if said level would be enough to do so, and with him also having Suigetsu's ability, that might just have him off worst. But this is based on what we have seen though, maybe he could take it without much problems and regen from it or maybe he can't, I personally go with the latter.



He's got his old regeneration in part 1 not constrained by chakra now (chakra capacity was why he couldn't heal after being hit by Rasengan), alongside the white snake healing, and Karin's alongside SM healing. Aside from SM healing, those sources of healing are rapidly enhanced with SM.

Isolating them individually, it gets iffy if they can do much. However I believe putting them all together with SM's durability: it gives a combination that can do survive Kirin.
For example: without chakra constraining his healing (he has limitless chakra in SM IIRC), he can heal from almost any attack with enough chakra* then you've got the other auto healing factors*. The durability would be complimented by this.

*Barring SM, I emphasize the rapid enhancement SM will give these sources of healing.


----------



## Seon (Apr 15, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Topic - Because Kishi does it enough already.
> 
> I'm a huge Itachi fan, but I'm NOT an ItachiTard/Fanboy. When I see Tards doing their thing, it makes me embarrased to say I like him too. So much so that I'll say things I don't mean just to troll them.
> 
> ...





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He's got his old regeneration in part 1 not constrained by chakra now (chakra capacity was why he couldn't heal after being hit by Rasengan), alongside the white snake healing, and Karin's alongside SM healing. Aside from SM healing, those sources of healing are rapidly enhanced with SM.
> 
> Isolating them individually, it gets iffy if they can do much. However I believe putting them all together with SM's durability: it gives a combination that can do survive Kirin.
> For example: without chakra constraining his healing (he has limitless chakra in SM IIRC), he can heal from almost any attack with enough chakra* then you've got the other auto healing factors*. The durability would be complimented by this.
> ...



You are overestimating Kabutos healing. Kabuto was going to die from one incomplete basic rasengan. Used from a non kyuubi naruto. Kabuto got lucky he had it then. 

Are you insinuating Kirins destructive capabilities are weaker than that rasengan? Kabuto would cease to exist. 

It seems fairly obvious that Kabuto would have lost. He tried to beat them psychologically for a reason. He tried twice, to have sasuke help him beat Itachi. This was all for a reason. Sasuke asked why they had to hold back twice, if they weren't hindered as much as everybody claimed then why did he have to make such a big deal about it? Because clearly they're holding back was becoming a problem.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm aren't you... you are suggesting the sharingan can see underground far enough to see kabuto?? while they couldn't even detect him while he wasn't underground?? lol...



Just wondering, did you read the manga? Their issue was Kabuto hiding in a snake while multiple decoy snakes were in the area. They could see the snake he was in, they just didn't know it was that snake he was in.

If he's underground there's no issue, it's just Kabuto moving around with no decoys he can hide amongst.



> also you do understand jiriaya has the perfect move to counter undergound travel (yomi numa?) and he thought it wouldn't make a difference..



So a heavily injured Jiraiya is going to potentially waste a lot of chakra to try and grab someone he can't detect at all. Yeah, no, especially not when Kabuto can probably just swim through that swamp's earth with his move-through-earth technique.



> they did not... kabuto decided to show up and attack.. the uchiha brother countered.. and they shot his tail. which did jack shit to kabuto.. really not seeing why you would see this as a win?? they used there fastest attacks and got nothing for it..



You are flat out wrong. Kabuto had his senses impaired by Itachi's Yaska Magatama and failed to fully dodge Sasuke's arrow. If that arrow had Enton covering it he'd be screwed as Sasuke could have run the flames through him even as he slid off of it.



> i agree this might be possible.. but purely because i think itachi might be able to hit kabuto eventually.. spamming amaterasu in a cave against somebody that can so easily counter is just stupid waste of chakra..



One Amaterasu is enough to produce flames Sasuke can manipulate. While Kabuto is trying to use a Doton to shift the earth with the flames on it, either brother can attack him with much faster Jutsu.

Kabuto's in a catch-22. If he does nothing about the Enton flames he is going to have a steadily decreasing area in which he can fight, increasing the odds he'll be hit. If he does something about the flames he invites his enemies to get an easy hit on him, and they can use Jutsu that can kill him or neutralise him with one blow.



> ye uhm no.. orochimaru did it while he was in cut in half.. also why would he need to when he can just liquify arround it..
> 
> hiding underground does help.. amaterasu from sasuke has never shown to be able to burn anything ever!!! how can you say it now instantly burns through rock.. and then we come to the point they first have to be able to find kabuto.. which they can't..
> 
> ...



Orochimaru has never used Oral Rebirth when cut in half. That is irrelevant however, Kabuto's liquefying technique doesn't mean the flames are going to roll off him. It just means he'll be partially liquid and still on fire.

Amaterasu is Amaterasu. I have never said they'd use Amaterasu on an underground Kabuto. Amaterasu is not Kagatsuchi. Please find out what the Jutsu we're discussing actually do before trying to form a counter-argument. And yes, they can simply see Kabuto underground. Sasuke used this technique to spot Deidara's mines hidden underground to great effect.

Using Kimimaro's Jutsu is ineffective against Susanoo. Kabuto's scant handful of actually effective Jutsu can't be used underground.



> this hole time sasuke was doing jack shit.. nothing sasuke doing would be more then a minor inconvience to kabuto..



Meritless fluff, I've already highlighted the flaws in your argument.



> sure.. or they wouldn't know how to find him?? because kabuto can hide??that why they could only counter....



Kabuto can't hide. At all. You've given me no reason to believe he can do this. Bring some scans if you have any, for now though you've got nothing to back you up.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 15, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Granted both powers should be taken into consideration however thats where the similarites end. Koto was given to Itachi for one reason and purpose while Edo Tensie is something Kabuto can use utalize whenever prepped



Doesn't matter the reason, at the point it was pretty much apart of itachi's arsenal, my point was simply to suggest Kabuto wasn't holding back just because he didn't use et.


Complete_Ownage said:


> Kabuto could have gone around Itachi quite easily. He could have simply sealed him up when he the opportunities or simply ended the jutsu on Itachi making him irrelevant. He however wanted Itachi for himself since he knows his capabilities


His best bet was ending the jutsu, now that he's stuck n izanami he's probably regretting not doing so.


Complete_Ownage said:


> From what I remember didn't kabuto tag Itachi a few times durring there little scrimmages


Mostly due to surprise attacks, but my point is that if itachi can keep up with him, totsuka plus sharingon precognition along with sasuke spamming Enton he will be tagged rather easily. 



Complete_Ownage said:


> kabuto makes himself immune to genjutsu = 1/3rd of Itachis abilities
> Kabuto has jutsus that make AMA useless - 2/3rd of Itachis abiltities
> Kabto has sensing that if fighting 1v1 out paces Susannoo - All of Itachis abilties
> 
> It takes the combination of those two to impale Kabutos tail who has regeneration abilites, can liquify his body and etc



Kabuto cannot react fast enough to cast a jutsu after itachi cast amatarasu, keep in mind only the raikage was able to avoid it with his full shushin, and if he keeps spamming oral rebirth he will run out of chakra rather quickly.


Complete_Ownage said:


> What Sasuke lacked in offense abilties as you say he simply made that up ten fold on defense from protecting himself and Itachi from the spikes, breaking free of genjtusu and etc



All he did was defend himself and itachi, my point is with the no kill restriction lifted, sasuke will rape fighting along side his brother.


Complete_Ownage said:


> Except kabuto is vastly superior in reflexes and speed in a 1v1 situation. So yet again AMA is not doing shit to someone who has counters for it


Kabuto hasn't shown he's vastly superior infact itachi also tagged Kabuto a couple of times himself, so yeah kabuto's only counter to amatarasu is oral rebirth, which he can't spam and there's also no guarantee oral rebirth will save him from Enton.


Complete_Ownage said:


> If he gets hit thats what oral rebirth is for.


He can't spam oral rebirth.


Complete_Ownage said:


> That was the point I was trying to make


Agree here.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Like stated a hundred times in this thread...There was no need for basic genjutsu outside Izanami since Kabuto has a viable counter. There was no need to spam AMA since kabuto has viable counters for it . If it wasnt for his Edo body he would have been dead along time ago



See what your not getting is the bros couldn't spam amatarasu because it would kill Kabuto.


Complete_Ownage said:


> 1) Get off this AMA crap. It has been posted numerous times with links that he has viable counters for such a jutsu
> 
> 2) As kabuto has shown he does not need to sit back and dodge duel Susannos. He has shown two Justus that immobilze and work through Susanno that can either weaken or make the caster release the jutsu



His only viable counter to a dual amatarasu is oral rebirth which again he can't spam.

Kabuto has shown he can get threw Susano when it's not attacking him, but how will fair against the bros if there actually going for the kill, do you think Kabuto can dodge two Susano swords being swung at the same time?.



Complete_Ownage said:


> I hate to tell you that any jutsu can be lethal. Hell a basic sword can be lethal if properlly used. The MS jutsus may have been godly to begin with in the series however every higher tier character has shown they can deal with such jutsus. Well except for a few



Any jutsu can be lethal, but characters have set jutsu's which they are proficient at, it's like saying naruto isn't handicapped if we take away his rasengon variants because his shadow clones and kunais are lethal 

Kabuto being one of the few.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I'm not downplaying anything. Knowledge is a wonderfull thing and could easily turn the tide to any battle. You act like Itachi and Sasuke had ZERO knowledge on kabuto. Yet Kabuto worked as a spy for the organization and gained all of Orochimarus abiltites. His abiltites were well know I would assume except for the SM part which he later gained and his new found abiltites he aquired via DNA enchancment



Kabuto main form of offense all stemmed from his new sm, which the bros had zero knowledge on, meanwhile Kabuto had practically full knowledge on the bros.


----------



## Meruem (Apr 15, 2013)

Itachi solos.


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## raizen28 (Apr 15, 2013)

Meruem said:


> Itachi solos.


Meruem is correct, That he is.
Im sure of it, That I am.
He's repenting his sins of slaying enemies and using his post to protect people now. That it seems


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## lordhigh (Apr 15, 2013)

rape thread kotoamatsulami GG


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 16, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Doesn't matter the reason, at the point it was pretty much apart of itachi's arsenal, my point was simply to suggest Kabuto wasn't holding back just because he didn't use et.



Answer me this...

Was kabuto not holding back from killing sasuke? I'll just go ahead and answer this for you...YES



> His best bet was ending the jutsu, now that he's stuck n izanami he's probably regretting not doing so.



Werd...nows hes just drooling on himself

Offtopic: I still think kabuto is going to play an important roll later on.



> Mostly due to surprise attacks, but my point is that if itachi can keep up with him, totsuka plus sharingon precognition along with sasuke spamming Enton he will be tagged rather easily.



So yes he was tagged before 



> Kabuto cannot react fast enough to cast a jutsu after itachi cast amatarasu, keep in mind only the raikage was able to avoid it with his full shushin, and if he keeps spamming oral rebirth he will run out of chakra rather quickly.



When amataruse is cast the user builds up chakra in that eye. Something kabuto can sense and anticpate. Kabuto in Sage Mode has a monstrosity of chakra, using oral rebirth a few times is going to have little effect on his chakra something Sasuke can not keep spamming. If Itachi were alive it even takes a greater toll on him



> Kabuto hasn't shown he's vastly superior infact itachi also tagged Kabuto a couple of times himself, so yeah kabuto's only counter to amatarasu is oral rebirth, which he can't spam and there's also no guarantee oral rebirth will save him from Enton.



Itachi tagged his horn who kabuto admitts he even had while in SM. Kabuto was only tagged when the brothers were using combination attacks and even then it was meaningless since kabuto explains any physical damage is useless with his regeneration 





> See what your not getting is the bros couldn't spam amatarasu because it would kill Kabuto.



What you don't understand is that Sasuke can not spam Amatarasu for shit and giggles. He does not have limitless chakra that kabuto nearly possesses. While Itachi does an edo form that is not going to do much when someone has viable counters as stated. If they want to spam amatarasu and "trap" him what stops Kabuto from ultering the landscape beneath him
.



> Kabuto has shown he can get threw Susano when it's not attacking him, but how will fair against the bros if there actually going for the kill, do you think Kabuto can dodge two Susano swords being swung at the same time?.



Yup and what is going to do to him outside of the sealing sword if it makes contact? The dude can liquify his body and grow new parts...

Kabuto also put the brothers under the genjutsu while they were defending themselfs from kabutos initial attacks. Nothing stops him from doing it again


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## blk (Apr 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Answer me this...
> 
> Was kabuto not holding back from killing sasuke? I'll just go ahead and answer this for you...YES



Excuse me if i intrude myself inside your debate but:

Could Kabuto kill Sasuke without his paralyzing jutsu? No, therefore he was basically going all out.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 16, 2013)

blk said:


> Excuse me if i intrude myself inside your debate but:
> 
> Could Kabuto kill Sasuke without his paralyzing jutsu? No, therefore he was basically going all out.



WTF kind of logic is this? Could Itachi not kill Nagato without his sealing sword? Could either of the brothers not kill higher tiers without there stongest Jutsu? 
<insert numerous other examples> ....Let's stop scrapping the bottom of the barrel. It doesnt matter if the person has 10 ways to kill his opponent or 1 the outcome is still the same

Itachi also saved Sasuke from kabutos initial attack. Itachi also saved his brother from the impaling spikes. Itachi also saved his brother from the genjutsu although this goes both ways

From what I recall kabuto also tricked Itachi into protecting his brother when he himself was actually the target. I believe this was with the spikes


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Answer me this...
> 
> Was kabuto not holding back from killing sasuke? I'll just go ahead and answer this for you...YES


Majority of kabuto's attention was directed at itachi, he didn't hold back against itachi, and he barley fought against sasuke to begin with, I think kabuto's plan was to rewrite itachi's talisman and then use itachi to help him capture sasuke.

I could also simply play the same game and ask you, where both bros holding back from killing Kabuto? Don't worry I'll wait 



Complete_Ownage said:


> Werd...nows hes just drooling on himself
> 
> Offtopic: I still think kabuto is going to play an important roll later on.


I think your right, I think oro will betray sasuke but Kabuto will probably come to his aid, izanami is basically a tnj loop.


Complete_Ownage said:


> So yes he was tagged before


Yah I have no problem admitting that, itachi tagged him on several occasions as well, thing is it looks more devastating when Kabuto does it because Kabuto doesn't hold back, and itachi doesn't deal a fatal blow because he can't kill him.

We can assume Kabuto speed isn't that far off form itachi's, it's mostly the sensing that helps him, but I doubt sensing will save him from 2 susano swords, amatarasu and sharingon precognition.


Complete_Ownage said:


> When amataruse is cast the user builds up chakra in that eye. Something kabuto can sense and anticpate. Kabuto in Sage Mode has a monstrosity of chakra, using oral rebirth a few times is going to have little effect on his chakra something Sasuke can not keep spamming. If Itachi were alive it even takes a greater toll on him


Sasuke can use Enton to manipulate flames already present, and with ems he will have no problem having a field day with amatarasu, oral rebirth takes quite a toll on anybody's chakra, even Orochimaru so to make the claim oral rebirth would be like nothing to Kabuto you have to provide some evidence.


Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi tagged his horn who kabuto admitts he even had while in SM. Kabuto was only tagged when the brothers were using combination attacks and even then it was meaningless since kabuto explains any physical damage is useless with his regeneration


You do know that if the bros had killing intent, the arrow was going to go straight threw kabuto's chest or while Kabuto was fooled by itachi's bushin the real itachi could of either totsuka him, or used amatarasu. I could provide scans if you like.



Complete_Ownage said:


> What you don't understand is that Sasuke can not spam Amatarasu for shit and giggles. He does not have limitless chakra that kabuto nearly possesses. While Itachi does an edo form that is not going to do much when someone has viable counters as stated. If they want to spam amatarasu and "trap" him what stops Kabuto from ultering the landscape beneath him


He pretty much can to be honest with you, ever since sasuke obtained ms his fighting style is pretty much spamming, and now he has ems so the drawbacks will not take effect.

We have no intel to assume Kabuto has limitless chakra, we just know he can stay in sm indefinitely thanks to jugo's cells, but he still has his own chakra reserves.

As stated Kabuto doesn't have solid counters to amatarasu or Susano.


Two opponents having fast one shot moves and sharingon precognition,standing right in front of him will pretty much be the reason he can't just change the landscape without leaving himself open. 


Not to mention if he damages the cave to much and opens it up, Kirin will pretty much be a game ender






Complete_Ownage said:


> Yup and what is going to do to him outside of the sealing sword if it makes contact? The dude can liquify his body and grow new parts...
> 
> Kabuto also put the brothers under the genjutsu while they were defending themselfs from kabutos initial attacks. Nothing stops him from doing it again




Did you forget sasuke has a bunch of lightning variants? I don't think liquefying his body is going to do much good.

All of these things take a considerable amount of chakra my good friend, not to mention itachi has a sealing sword.


If they blocked it in canon with no knowledge, they will certainly defend from it with knowledge, probably even better. 



All in all this was a good debate but I just feel like, if they stopped him in canon, why would they fail with less restrictions and greater knowledge? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think Kabuto is a solid character and without et, he would be a good matchup for either bro individually, but two is obviously to much.


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## blk (Apr 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> WTF kind of logic is this? Could Itachi not kill Nagato without his sealing sword? Could either of the brothers not kill higher tiers without there stongest Jutsu?
> <insert numerous other examples> ....Let's stop scrapping the bottom of the barrel
> 
> Itachi also saved Sasuke from kabutos initial attack. Itachi also saved his brothes from the impaling spikes. Itachi also saved his brother from the genjutsu although this goes both ways
> ...



It's pretty easy to understand: Kabuto's strongest jutsu (and the only ones that can really affect the brothers) are paralyzing jutsu.

These jutsu are non-lethal, therefore he could use them without restrictions.

On the other hand, the brothers couldn't use the Totsuka, the Enton Magatama, the Enton sword and Amaterasu (for offensive purposes).
Their moveset was more restricted because it is only lethal.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 16, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Majority of kabuto's attention was directed at itachi, he didn't hold back against itachi, and he barley fought against sasuke to begin with, I think kabuto's plan was to rewrite itachi's talisman and then use itachi to help him capture sasuke.



I could agree with this...See above post



> I could also simply play the same game and ask you, where both bros holding back from killing Kabuto? Don't worry I'll wait



What game?

I have not argued that point one bit. We all know the brothers were holding back, I was just trying to point out the fact that kabuto had his own circumstances to deal with since you made it seem like a one sided example.



> I think your right, I think oro will betray sasuke but Kabuto will probably come to his aid, izanami is basically a tnj loop.



I along time ago said along with most people that I could see Orochimaru finally gaining Sasuke as a host. Kabuto then "redeems" himself like Itachi did for his village and kills his former master. But I don't think the story is headed that way anymore




> Yah I have no problem admitting that, itachi tagged him on several occasions as well, thing is it looks more devastating when Kabuto does it because Kabuto doesn't hold back, and itachi doesn't deal a fatal blow because he can't kill him.



I think your missing a key point here. Any physical damage that Itachi "could" inflict on kabuto if he managed, which I doubt in the first place he could do is meaningless. Only something like the sealing sword would be a fatal blow and of course as you pointed out if he just sits there on fire




> Sasuke can use Enton to manipulate flames already present, and with ems he will have no problem having a field day with amatarasu, oral rebirth takes quite a toll on anybody's chakra, even Orochimaru so to make the claim oral rebirth would be like nothing to Kabuto you have to provide some evidence.



Nothing stops Kabuto from manipulating and reshaping the environment where the flames have not touched. Yes oral rebirth takes a toll on the users chakra however in Sage Mode like the rest of them they have an incredible source of chakra. You cant compare orochimaru to kabuto while in sage mode.



> You do know that if the bros had killing intent, the arrow was going to go straight threw kabuto's chest or while Kabuto was fooled by itachi's bushin the real itachi could of either totsuka him, or used amatarasu. I could provide scans if you like.



Yes like any physical damage is going to do shit to kabuto who with his body modifications, healing and white snake jutsus is probably damn near unkillable. The only thing going to stop him is the sword of totsuka




> We have no intel to assume Kabuto has limitless chakra, we just know he can stay in sm indefinitely thanks to jugo's cells, but he still has his own chakra reserves.



I am not claiming Kabuto has limitless chakra since I honestly don't know and is anyones guess. The point I was trying to make is his chakra is now beyond anything orochimaru could have ever dreamed of



> As stated Kabuto doesn't have solid counters to amatarasu or Susano.



I'm done arguing this point since you go back and re-read the numerous links




> Not to mention if he damages the cave to much and opens it up, Kirin will pretty much be a game ender



Yea since kabuto is just going to stand there while he builds up the jutsu :lol




> Did you forget sasuke has a bunch of lightning variants? I don't think liquefying his body is going to do much good.



Funny thing is that is the perfect counter to kabutos jutsu. One must ask why sasuke did not spam the shit out of it. Is it because he's to damn slow to land a hit like it was shown





> All in all this was a good debate but I just feel like, if they stopped him in canon, why would they fail with less restrictions and greater knowledge? It doesn't make any sense to me.



What makes you think kabuto would do the same with less restrictions? The only thing that may swing the tide of battle is Itachi being an Edo Tensie. Kabuto would have killed Itachi a few times if it was not for his edo body durring the battle. Kabuto did not kill sasuke since he wanted him alive. Itachi goes to protect sasuke and vice versa leaving himself open to defeat(which was shown)


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I could agree with this...See above post
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not true, I openly admitted Kabuto was handicapped as well, but what your having trouble admitting is the bros handicap was worst, there handicapped restricted there whole offensive moveset, Kabuto however got to have a field day.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> I along time ago said along with most people that I could see Orochimaru finally gaining Sasuke as a host. Kabuto then "redeems" himself like Itachi did for his village and kills his former master. But I don't think the story is headed that way anymore


Well at this point I guess kishi is doing a good job, because I can't tell exactly where the story is going now either, I am glad one of my favs is back tho, hopefully oro can show us why he was so feared back in part 1.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> 
> I think your missing a key point here. Any physical damage that Itachi "could" inflict on kabuto if he managed, which I doubt in the first place he could do is meaningless. Only something like the sealing sword would be a fatal blow and of course as you pointed out if he just sits there on fire


Amatarasu would also be fatal also, keep in mind oral rebirth worked on a half hearted amatarasu, we have no idea how it would work on a amatarasu with killing intent and a Enton variation.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> Nothing stops Kabuto from manipulating and reshaping the environment where the flames have not touched. Yes oral rebirth takes a toll on the users chakra however in Sage Mode like the rest of them they have an incredible source of chakra. You cant compare orochimaru to kabuto while in sage mode.


Nothing except the uchiha bros being infront of his face.

Sage mode enhances the users technique's, I may be missing something but I never heard of sage mode increasing the users chakra capacity, hashi and naruto in base already have large chakra capacities, so just because they have a lot of chakra doesn't translate to Kabuto having the same.


I can compare there chakra capacity which has nothing to do with sage mode.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> Yes like any physical damage is going to do shit to kabuto who with his body modifications, healing and white snake jutsus is probably damn near unkillable. The only thing going to stop him is the sword of totsuka



So when Kabuto was blind sided by the crow bushin dispersing wouldn't a totsuka to the chest end the match? Itachi could of took advantage of that much like he did against Nagato had he wanted to kill Kabuto.


That and Kirin, a decapitation which could of happend had itachi not wanted to end et and amatarasu or sasuke's Enton sword, see your using a no limit fallacy with kabuto's healing.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> I am not claiming Kabuto has limitless chakra since I honestly don't know and is anyones guess. The point I was trying to make is his chakra is now beyond anything orochimaru could have ever dreamed of


Again I don't recall sm increasing chakra capacity, I know it does make your ninjutsu and taijutsu more potent tho.



Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> I'm done arguing this point since you go back and re-read the numerous links


We will have to agree to disagree on this point then.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> 
> Yea since kabuto is just going to stand there while he builds up the jutsu :lol


Kabuto won't have a choice, with itachi going after him with actual killing intent this time, also be mindful sasuke could be in his ribcage Enton defense form and Kabuto won't be able to touch him.


Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> 
> Funny thing is that is the perfect counter to kabutos jutsu. One must ask why sasuke did not spam the shit out of it. Is it because he's to damn slow to land a hit like it was shown


Or  because it was itachi who took the front lines of this fight because all of sasuke's moves are pretty much lethal 



Complete_Ownage said:


> I
> 
> What makes you think kabuto would do the same with less restrictions? The only thing that may swing the tide of battle is Itachi being an Edo Tensie. Kabuto would have killed Itachi a few times if it was not for his edo body durring the battle. Kabuto did not kill sasuke since he wanted him alive. Itachi goes to protect sasuke and vice versa leaving himself open to defeat(which was shown)



Because even with his first restrictions he still got to pull out all the stops, and he still lost.


The best he could do with his restrictions lifted is change tactics, seeing how his former restrictions didnt hinder his moveset one bit like it did for the bros, I doubt his change of tactics would mean much now that the bros have knowledge and there both out for the kill.


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## Krippy (Apr 16, 2013)

Are people seriously trying to argue Kabuto could tank Kirin? 

they're in a cave, so its a moot point, but Kabuto isn't tanking an attack on the level of Kirin


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> When was it made perfectly clear that the only way for kabuto to compete with Itachi was when he was hindered?


When ? 

The fact that Itachi needed to capture him alive while he needed to protect his little bro and Kabuto was using everything within his power to destroy him ? 

It thought it was made perfectly clear.



> Both of them had there own agendas durring the battle. What kabuto gained in knowledge of studying Itachi, Itachi gained the advantage of being and edo.


Itachi benefitted from being edo twice.

Once when he was impaled by stalagmites, sacrificed himself to protect his brother.
The other time when Kabuto chopped him in half, after Itachi deliberately disabled his susano'o and taunted Kabuto, right after expressing that Izanami was complete. Which actually led to the events that completed the loop and eventually to Kabuto's defeat.
A bit convenient if you'd ask me.





> Just because kabuto explained that they couldn't kill him means nothing. That has been established since part 1 of the story and he has told everyone from madara to the alliance this. Kabuto is one of the most twisted and manipulitive characters in the story. Why would he not try to get Sasuke who is emotionally unstable at this point to rethink his position? Has nothing to do with power



If Kabuto believed they wouldn't be able to kill him, then he wouldn't need to express that they weren't allowed to kill him.
Conclusion : He certainly believed that they were capable of doing so.

And oh, he tried to get Sasuke by his side because he was scared Itachi'd fuck his shit up.
He got confident after Itachi told about his plan of capturing him alive in detail. 






> All out? cmon man
> 
> Granted both sasuke and Itachi could only hold off kabuto until Izanami was set up they still used some of there strongest jutsus to do so.


Just defensively.
It is surely limiting, considering that their arsenal is better suited for offense and isn't well fit for battle of attrition.



> They both played offense and defense at different points in the battle and the same goes for kabuto. What was shown was that kabuto could have captured or killed both of them. You must also remember kabuto was not trying to kill sasuke and wanted to re-capture Itach. His hands were tied also


What ?
The only time when Itachi & Sasuke went offensive was the beginning of the fight, when they impaled him on the tail with the intention of capturing him.

Kabuto was on the offense all the time, and to be able to capture Itachi he needed to KO Itachi first, so he had no trouble of hitting Itachi with all he got.

Sasuke was almost a non factor through out the fight, and every attack Kabuto launched targeted both, except for the chakra scapels, so I am not sure how Kabuto's hands were tied.




> How can you say kabuto went all out when he did not even use his strongest jutsu in the battle?


What jutsu  ?




> And the same exact thing could be said for kabuto. You can not look at it from a one sided perspective. So you want to add this match without restrictions? Yes let's give one of the most haxxed characters no restrictions. Kabuto would murder stomp them


I don't know what you are talking about.

Kabuto had full knowledge, except for Izanami and wasn't restricted.
Itachi & Sasuke didn't have any exlusive knowledge on Kabuto's jutsus and they weren't allowed to use any offensive jutsus on Kabuto.
What Itachi basically did was to stall Kabuto till Izanami was prepped. 

I am pretty sure the one who is seeing things through a one sided perspective is you, if you can't make the differentiation between going all out and stalling.





> Conclusion:
> 
> You got to look at it from both sides.
> Itachi wanted to end Edo Tensie via Izanami which he needed time for. Kabuto wanted to take over Itachi and capture sasuke...What would the outcome have been ? Kabuto would have re-written Itachi a couple of times and or killed him if not for his edo form.


That is just wrong. Itachi's Edo form didn't prevent Kabuto from re-writing his tag, Sasuke did.




> Sasuke would have been captured almost immediatly. *It took the teamwork of two MS uchiha and one that had infinite stamina to boot to win the game of chess*


You are right about Sasuke, but the bolded part is nothing but twisting the facts.

You make it sound as if Itachi actually had inifite stamina and spammed his strongest moves through out the battle along with Sasuke, and thats how they were able to defeat Kabuto.

Well, if you dumb it down, and want to misinform people, you could have said that. Which is far from what actually happened.

It took 2 Uchiha's with MS to stall Kabuto without attacking him directly, to prepare an extremely complex genjutsu for the sake of capturing him alive for interrogation.

Thats what happened.




> So basically what kishi implied durring the battle with "limitations" is that it takes God Mode Itachi and Sasuke to compete with kabuto.


Lol, no.

Kishi didn't make any implications....

He flat out showed us that the only way this fight could be challenging was to make brothers capture Kabuto alive with an unconventional method which required them to basically sit back and try to tank Kabuto's offensive arsenal(which was solely designed to fight sharingan users).




> However, this is a discussion about an entirely different fight where Izanami and Edo Tensie are restricted. Kabuto has shown the ability to take down both of them in there little skirmish. Munboy has down an excellent job of posting links. Kabuto has counters for nearly all of the uchiha bros arsenal



Kabuto tried his best to take them down but failed, even when the Bro's had absolutely no knowledge about Kabuto's arsenal, and were basically restricted to defense and had to play the stalling game.

And basing on that, you are claiming that he can defeat them, when they have full knowledge and are allowed to dish out their strongest weapons for the purpose of killing Kabuto ?




You might want to read what you type next time, because what you just said, makes no sense at all.


edit : 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Will Kirin do much to someone with the amount of regeneration Kabuto has?



By "do much damage" if you mean "atomize him where he stands", then yeah. 

Kabuto doesn't have much durability, and he certainly cannot regenerate his body from scratch.


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## narutoish (Apr 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto uses  the light jutsu(can't remember atm) to paralyze, Muki Tensei to finish it off.



don't remember it working last time




> Kabuto wins easily, he has Karin's healing abilities, Suigetsu's waterbody, and Juugos' chakra.



none of them help against amertersu/tostuka



> Tsukuyomi-Sage sensing
> Amaterasu- Slough off skin, heal.
> Susanoo- Kabuto has gotten through it, Totsuka will just go through Kabuto.


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