# How sexist is Kishi really?



## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

A lot of people call Kishi sexist for his poorly written female characters. I believe this to be false. I genuinely believe that he had no idea how to approach the few females that had a decent amount of screen time. I really think he is awkward when it comes to things like this.

Why do I believe this you ask? Because he doesn't even use his females for fan service. Out of 700 chapters of an extremely popular manga, I cannot think of one panel that Kishi has drawn that can qualify as blatant fan service. And if he has at any point, he does it very rarely. Naruto is the only long running shounen I can think of in this situation, I.E 100+ chapters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Arles Celes (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishi's "sexistness" to most readers comes down to making females less relevant, weaker and mostly focused on romance while their male counterparts get unique dreams/goals of their own. 

No sisterly bonds and girl friendships are also just mostly relegated to romance.

IMO Kishi simply does not understand girls well and so he writes as little as possible about them with some stereotypes here and there. I don't think he is sexist and much less misogynistic.


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## Teachan (Apr 27, 2015)

*How sexist is Kishi really?
*
Very.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Addy (Apr 27, 2015)

is he sexist? the number of female characters are low compared to males and secondery characters beyond sasuke, sakura, naruto didnt get any real exposure anyway. using sakura as a stick for measuring doesn't work at all just because sasuke and naruto were equally written like shit but in different ways.


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> IMO Kishi simply does not understand girls well and so he writes as little as possible about them with some stereotypes here and there. I don't think he is sexist and much less misogynistic.



This is what I believe, anyway.


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## namezox (Apr 27, 2015)

Sexist? Nope. This manga is for mainly for Teenage boys; not a bit surprised he mainly care about the boys.

If a female writer writes a story that cater towards female and give unless attention to boys, would you call her a sexist? Nope.

Damn you Feminazi to hell.


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## VCY (Apr 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kishi's "sexistness" to most readers comes down to making females less relevant, weaker and mostly focused on romance while their male counterparts get unique dreams/goals of their own.
> 
> No sisterly bonds and girl friendships are also just mostly relegated to romance.
> 
> IMO Kishi simply does not understand girls well and so he writes as little as possible about them with some stereotypes here and there. I don't think he is sexist and much less misogynistic.



What is there to "understand" about girls? Do you really think  he could make up a huge fantasy world with a multitude of intricacies but the machinations of women just so happened to elude him?

Kishi is sexist.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lucky7 (Apr 27, 2015)




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## Alucardemi (Apr 27, 2015)

Of course not, I don't believe him to actually be sexist for writing a story focused on male, brotherly bonds, lol. Especially when he writes characters such as Tsunade, Chiyo, Temari and even Kabuto's mother.

His hatred of Sakura isn't a standard for anything.


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

VCY said:


> What is there to "understand" about girls? Do you really think  he could make up a huge fantasy world with a multitude of intricacies but the machinations of women just so happened to elude him?
> 
> Kishi is sexist.



Please don't act like men and women are the same. 



Lucky7 said:


>



What are you trying to prove with this panel?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Tony Lou (Apr 27, 2015)

Making-a-goddess-look-stupid-and-embarass-herself levels of sexist.


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## UchihaJaime (Apr 27, 2015)

I have never understood any author's inability to write the opposite gender. Kishimoto should take a lesson from grrm.


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## Lucky7 (Apr 27, 2015)

> What are you trying to prove with this panel?


^The man writes women as women, not as a normal person. Sakura is the heroine of the series and personifies sexist ideas about them- weak willed, emotionally unstable, cannot handle situations as adequately as male counterparts because of the tendency towards uncontrollabe overemotion, love and romance is a primary point in their lives, they are forever waiting for that one boy they've attached themselves to as children for whatever reason and will endure any and all degradation and years of pining with nothing in return, women who stop pursuing someone they had romantic feelings for and got with someone else would make them a terrible woman, desperately insecure and searching for male validation, having to help out on the sidelines while the boys handle the real problems, she even has to give up on trying to do anything because she will always be too weak, and when faced with people not liking Sakura's character he thinks that she will be more well received if he draws her prettier. 

Although, I agree that Kishi isn't a raging sexist, in fact, I don't even think he realizes his treatment of most of his female characters. As you said, he doesn't really use them for fanservice or what have you. Its just that oftentimes he struggles with his female characters because instead of just thinking of them as characters, he thinks of them as female and thus some complete alien species from their male counterparts.

Furthermore, he has this weird predisposition when it comes to most them- either revolving around men and love.

Sakura- Main character in manga about ninjas. Story long struggle revolves around love.
Hinata- Had an interesting backstory and intriguing setup. Can't go a chapter without doing or saying something Naruto related.
Tsunade- Hokage, leader of a whole country of ninja. Threat comes to her village, must be saved by sixteen year old boy and ultimately not even confront the threat. Made worse by the fact that all the other *male *Hokage's would've gone head to head, no doubt.
Kushina- Main character's mother. Jnchuuriki before him. Originated from another village. One of the last members of a powerful clan. Apparent spunky personality. Barely developed past pretty wife of Minato who hated something physical about herself before her boyfriend told her she was beautiful. 
Kurenai- The only female Jounin Instructor. Genjutsu said to be the most advanced in the village and rivaling Itachi in skill. The only Jounin Instructor to get no solo fight, no expansion of her abilities, and once she gets knocked up she disappears for the rest of the manga and retires from ninja duty.
Mei- Kage of Hidden Mist. Kekkai Genkai. Brought order to her village after a rule of tyranny. Next to nothing is known about her except she apparently has a sore spot about not being _*married*_.
Karin- One of the last Uzumaki's. Great chakra reserves. Experimented on by Orochimaru. Ran one of his prisons_ by herself_. Her most capitalized trait by Kishi is her thirst for Sasuke. 

Despite this, many of them  didn't get this nearly as bad as Sakura and Hinata, his chief pairing fodder, did (Shizune, Tsunade, Karui, and Temari are examples). So, Kishi is not sexist, not really. He just doesn't really, I guess, _understand_ women and their relationships not being some seperate entity than their male counterparts so he falls back on preconceived notions, which harbour sexist ideas. 

Although, he does seem to actually be writing Salad well. And not just "good for Kishi" but doing an actual good job so far. Perhaps its thinking of her as "female Sasuke" that does it .

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> oh my god
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's damning because a female character is showing weakness? Could I accuse Kishi of misandry if that was a male instead?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## VCY (Apr 27, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> It's damning because a female character is showing weakness? Could I accuse Kishi of misandry if that was a male instead?



You could if you could prove it was something being done to the majority of male characters. 

Do you think this is what girls are really like? Do you think women exist to obsess and squabble over men and break out in tears at the drop of a dime?



Lucky7 said:


> Although, he does seem to actually be writing Salad well. And not just "good for Kishi" but doing an actual good job so far. Perhaps its thinking of her as "female Sasuke" that does it .



Give it time. He's going to ruin her character too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (Apr 27, 2015)

The problem is there's like 1 female who does that in the whole series... and she's the only noticeable female...

which is Sakura... 

As for the other female they are just irrelevant that they can be considered as background character until Kishi can find a use for them and then they're back to being irrelevant.. same with other male with the exception of Nardo and Sauce. Mostly sauce because around part 2 there are point in the manga that Nardo became Irrelevant...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

VCY said:


> You could if you could prove it was something being done to the majority of male characters.



Naruto himself has a handful of absolutely embarrassing and degrading moments that are still talked about to this day. Not to mention Sasuke's character assassination at the end. I think you have selective seeing when it comes to men and women representation in this manga.



VCY said:


> Do you think this is what girls are really like?



No. You're taking that panel out of context. Sasuke is more than Sakura's crush, he is also her teammate which is why she is so distressed. If it was only a matter of love Ino would also be in the mix, which she's not.



VCY said:


> Do you think women exist to obsess and squabble over men and break out in tears at the drop of a dime?



I have no idea how you inferred that from any of my post.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raniero (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishimoto's treatment of women isn't really any worse than most romcoms/harems. Naruto's popularity just makes it stand out.


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## Panaema (Apr 27, 2015)

Of course he is. Japanese society has different gender norms and both Shonen and Shojo mangas are genres that rely heavily  on sexist stereotypes. I notice but don't care *that* much - it is what it is.


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## Raidoton (Apr 27, 2015)

Not at all. There are manga and anime with an all female cast that only have males as side characters and nobody calls it sexist. Because it isn't. If it would be sexist, then DBZ would be the most sexist shonen manga ever. 
Sakura did a lot of badass and awesome stuff in the manga, but people focus on her weak moments. Which makes them look more sexist than Kishi himself.


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## Lucky7 (Apr 27, 2015)

> It's damning because a female character is showing weakness? Could I accuse Kishi of misandry if that was a male instead?


No. It's damning because she is literally giving up. She is entrusting everything to someone else because she says she is too weak and will always be too weak to be able to do anything. The heroine of the series. I mean "I can't do anything. I can't say anything."? A character who is supposedy trying to "make them look at my back" and saying things like "Next time Naruto, we'll do it together". We can't even say she changed or learned from it, because in teh climaz of the manga, her defining moment was sobbing in the dirt begging Sasuke to have a place in his heart for her because she concedes that she can't do anything else and doesn't attempt to try, even in the face of him threatening to murder her teacher and the friend that's been supporting  her through this all. The scenario she told Naruto would be different, but couldn't grow the resolve to change herself. That's what makes it damning. Sakura, as a woman, is too emotionally unstable and mentally weak to handle herself when shit hits the fan and she is faced with the person of her romantic affections. 

Sure, Kishi has male characters do this too, but the difference is that they do not face the conclusion of the damn story weak and doing the same thing they did 500 chapters ago.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Marsala (Apr 27, 2015)

VCY said:


> Give it time. He's going to ruin her character too.



Probably, but Sarada will only be Naruto/Sasuke level ruined, not Sakura level ruined.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vandal Savage (Apr 27, 2015)

He actually isn't as bad as some of his contemporaries. For a while now, I have started to think this isn't a matter of being sexist, but a matter of being clueless when writing the female characters. If there is any sexism, I'd chalk it up to Japanese society more than anything else. 



Lucky7 said:


> *Spoiler*: __



I forgot about this. One more reason why that arc was the worst in the manga and I stopped kidding myself that it would actually get better.


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## capfal (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishi has the habit of ignoring most his side characters and giving them the barest of characterization. The problem with his females is that because there are less female characters, it stands out more when the females look bad.

For every poorly developed male, there is another developed male. But there are many poor developed females, and few developed females.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 27, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> The heroine of the series.



Let's be honest: this is nothing but a cheap punchline 

Kishi hates his heroine, he's shown it time and time again.

He's just a douche for hating on a character he should be giving story to, instead of brushing aside her plot-points and writing absolutely nothing of her. He doesn't hate Sakura because she's a girl, he hates her because she honestly didn't turn out what he wanted her to, due to his own lack of skill in writing.

He doesn't hate women because he shits on Sakura: he just hates Sakura. His work with Sarada should be evidence enough that he can succeed in writing female characters that he doesn't hold contempt for.


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> No. It's damning because she is literally giving up. She is entrusting everything to someone else because she says she is too weak and will always be too weak to be able to do anything.



The only one who hadn't given up was Naruto. Kakashi was also ready to abandon and kill Sasuke despite his comrade motto.



Lucky7 said:


> The heroine of the series.



This status doesn't mean anything in this series. Kishi never wanted to draw a heroine and was forced to and it shows.



Lucky7 said:


> I mean "I can't do anything. I can't say anything."? A character who is supposedy trying to "make them look at my back" and saying things like "Next time Naruto, we'll do it together".



This isn't exactly false. Sasuke and Naruto are tiers above her. She also grew up with a relatively normal childhood. She can't say anything because she doesn't get anything.



Lucky7 said:


> That's what makes it damning. Sakura, as a woman, is too emotionally unstable and mentally weak to handle herself when shit hits the fan and she is faced with the person of her romantic affections.



This is not exclusive to Sakura. Her and Naruto are at their absolute worst concerning anything with Sasuke. You show me Sakura begging for a place in his heart, I show you Naruto grovelling before the Raikage for his life despite him being in the organization that is trying to kill him. You show me her failure to kill him during the kage arc, and I show you Naruto hyperventilating over him.

Frankly, if we're talking about who is worst when it comes to Sasuke, I would say Naruto. He *actually was* almost killed by him and still couldn't let him go. 



Lucky7 said:


> Sure, Kishi has male characters do this too, but the difference is that they do not face the conclusion of the damn story weak and doing the same thing they did 500 chapters ago.



Sasuke's character was destroyed at the end by his apology. Naruto let him live despite him being this close to killing the kages and letting him go despite him having the means to go about his revolution. Everyone walked away from this absolutely retarded.



capfal said:


> Kishi has the habit of ignoring most his side characters and giving them the barest of characterization. The problem with his females is that because there are less female characters, it stands out more when the females look bad.



This is true.



Lucky7 said:


> For every poorly developed male, there is another developed male.



This is false. There are dozens of males in this series that were sidelined and never brought back up or explored.



Lucky7 said:


> But there are many poor developed females, and few developed females.



For a female to be considered poorly developed, she'd have to be considered a character and had meaningful panel time. There are only a handful that meet this status.

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## Lucky7 (Apr 27, 2015)

> The only one who hadn't given up was Naruto. Kakashi was also ready to abandon and kill Sasuke despite his comrade motto.


Kakashi never devised a convoluted plan that involved lying and trying to manipulate the feelings of his friend, double crossing his teammates, and trying to be the only one who can kill Sasuke. This was Sakura personal mission that she imposed on herself, did a whole bunch of shit to get to this point, completely choked, then gave up on even trying. At least Kakashi can stand up to Sasuke. 


> This isn't exactly false. Sasuke and Naruto are tiers above her. She also grew up with a relatively normal childhood. She can't say anything because she doesn't get anything.


Growing up as a normal child doesn't mean a person completely lacks depth, empathy, or insight for those who've had it worse than you. Ino had that in spades when she was a little girl, and she had a normal childhood as well, despite being from a clan. Sakura lacking in insight or learned wisdom is not because she's had a normal childhood, its just part of her personality to be dense and vapid. In fact, one would think this would work in her favor to understanding them, but she's too much of an empty character for that. 


> This is not exclusive to Sakura. Her and Naruto are at their absolute worst concerning anything with Sasuke. You show me Sakura begging for a place in his heart, I show you Naruto grovelling before the Raikage for his life despite him being in the organization that is trying to kill him. You show me her failure to kill him during the kage arc, and I show you Naruto hyperventilating over him.
> 
> Frankly, if we're talking about who is worst when it comes to Sasuke, I would say Naruto. He actually was almost killed by him and still couldn't let him go.


But Naruto, both before and after that pathetic episode, stood up to Sasuke as an equal. Sakura couldn't, despite resolving to do so, and never will. The reason people find Sakura's pining for Sasuke more pathetic than Naruto's is the lack of anything actually substantial in their relationship coupled with her submissive behavior towards him she still has. The difference between Sasuke mistreating Naruto is that at least Naruto can take his shit and send it right back. Sakura gets insulted or hurt by him and she breaks down and doesn't say anything. Naruto is willing to fight and kill Sasuke if he gets out of line. Sakura can just stand there with a kunai and cry about it. 


> Sasuke's character was destroyed at the end by his apology. Naruto let him live despite him being this close to killing the kages and letting him go despite him having the means to go about his revolution. Everyone walked away from this absolutely retarded.


But Sakura's character had long been getting the short end of the stick. Naruto resolved to bring back Sasuke, he did. Sasuke is out of the darkness. Kakashi protected his team, I suppose. Sakura? The one non pairing fodder goal she had was not only left completely unfufilled, she reverted back to doing exactly what she did when she was a useless twelve year old. One could more or less say the same for Sauce and Nardo, but even back then Sakura's character was even more pathetic and terribly written than theirs. 


> This is false. There are dozens of males in this series that were sidelined and never brought back up or explored.


None of them were main characters or the heroine of the series (she may not be a heroine with Kishi's writing, but she is still considered to be one). 


> For a female to be considered poorly developed, she'd have to be considered a character and had meaningful panel time. There are only a handful that meet this status.


Exactly. Hinata, Ino, and Tenten were main supporting characters in Part 1. Tsunade and Mei were Kage and thus highly intrinsic to the story. Konan was a member of the villain organization of the manga and directly linked to it's leader. Samui and Karui are side characters so perhaps they don't count. Kurenai is the jounin instructor to Team 8, and just like her fellow jounin instructor characters she should have got her proper dues. Temari had a fair amount of panel time for a side character, so I'd say she counts. Of all these characters, only Tsunade, Konan, and Temari come out of this okay, and Ino is a maybe. The rest? Kishi fucked up in some form or fashion. 


> Let's be honest: this is nothing but a cheap punchline
> 
> *Kishi hates his heroine, he's shown it time and time again.*
> 
> ...


This is also true. Many of the other female characters got more development and background than her, and were initially far more likeable. I think, because DBZ was an influence of his, that he tried to recreate a sort of Bulma like character and it didn't work out. It became more and more apparent how much of a burdensome obligation writing Sakura's character became.


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## Lucaniel (Apr 27, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> It's damning because a female character is showing weakness? Could I accuse Kishi of misandry if that was a male instead?



can you see the pyramids

can you hear the water gurgling

because you are knee deep

in de nile

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eylandos (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishi isn't sexist. Blame the manginas and overly sensitive females on here that want to complain about something.


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## Scila9 (Apr 27, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Why do I believe this you ask? Because he doesn't even use his females for fan service. Out of 700 chapters of an extremely popular manga, *I cannot think of one panel that Kishi has drawn that can qualify as blatant fan service*. And if he has at any point, he does it very rarely. Naruto is the only long running shounen I can think of in this situation, I.E 100+ chapters.



It's not ecchi and it's nowhere near One Piece/Fairy Tail level, but he does it. One minor boobless example:



You cannot tell me he wasn't thinking about a bj when he drew this  How many other perspectives could he have drawn this from?? Then there's Tsunade's boobs which are pretty much always blatant fan service cuz of her shirt.

But what really takes the cake is Kishi stating that his response to Sakura's unpopularity was to make her prettier


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## Bender (Apr 27, 2015)

Been a while since we spoke on this topic.


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## MasterSitsu (Apr 27, 2015)

he isn't sexist only sjw crew would even consider it


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## Revolution (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishi: "A female Sasuke would be too scary, so I gave her Sakura's features"


should I go on?


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## Eylandos (Apr 27, 2015)

Revolution said:


> Kishi: "A female Sasuke would be too scary, so I gave her Sakura's features"
> 
> 
> should I go on?



Must be nice to plug in whatever narrative fits your argument. By all means continue.


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## shade0180 (Apr 27, 2015)

> Bulma like character and it didn't work out



Bulma worked because Goku is dumb.... 

Bulma became the brain for Goku through out the series even if she was used as a gag character for some part..

Sakura well she started as a fairing fodder with a background of being intelligent.

The problem is Kakashi took the place of the brains of the team for the most part where Sakura could have probably shined. So she lost her supposed role and well left with nothing but being a pairing fodder..

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Milliardo (Apr 27, 2015)

i don't know about sexist per say but he sure as hell can't write females.


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## Bender (Apr 27, 2015)

@shade0180

Naruto is a dumb fuck tooo and yet out of all the three on Team 7 Sakura pwns both Naruto and Sasuke in chakra control.


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## Bellville (Apr 27, 2015)

Writing women as petty, competing over boys into the teenage years, most of them having a focus on love when the guys don't care about that or are more rounded overall, drawing them cuter in response to unpopularity instead of improving their personalities/roles in a story, reminding the audience/other characters that a GIRL is doing COOL STUFF, SEE I CAN DO IT TOO, making them have overwhelming feelings for characters that they barely talk to, cliche late 20s/early 30s woman fretting about marriage, the majority of women taking the time to note X character being attractive, the psychotic fanclub/man worshipping crap, *treating women as if they are aliens that he can't seem to figure out enough to write decently...*

It's not sexism tinged with hatred so much as just perpetuating this idea of women as being like a different species than men. It's not looking at them as equals nor treating them as such. Yeah this looks like a ton of outdated Japanese stereotyping of women. It's sexist and just because "that's the culture" doesn't mean it's okay. :/


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## Stan Lee (Apr 27, 2015)

Bender said:


> @shade0180
> 
> Naruto is a dumb fuck tooo and yet out of all the three on Team 7 Sakura pwns both Naruto and Sasuke in chakra control.



Not really. Look at what Naruto did with Kurama's chakra with the alliance. Sakura said that his chakra could not be control, but Naruto proved her wrong.


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## Marsala (Apr 27, 2015)

Kishimoto isn't sexist. He just correctly understands that women are weak, stupid, and inferior.[/sarcasm]


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## shade0180 (Apr 27, 2015)

> Naruto is a dumb fuck tooo



Er he is not dumb as the same level as when Goku started the manga..

Naruto is literate enough about their world.. he just have little penance for detailed information.. 

Goku.. basically put it in word have no idea what a female is.... literally..

Goku couldn't even count or write until Roshi trained him.


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## Alkaid (Apr 27, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> Kakashi never devised a convoluted plan that involved lying and trying to manipulate the feelings of his friend, double crossing his teammates, and trying to be the only one who can kill Sasuke. This was Sakura personal mission that she imposed on herself, did a whole bunch of shit to get to this point, completely choked, then gave up on even trying.



She gave up trying to kill him because she got in a situation where it was plausible and couldn't go through. It's not weird that someone chokes in a situation like this. People do all kinds of mental and beforehand prep for things and choke. Nothing can prepare someone for the gravity of the situation except the situation itself.



Revolution said:


> At least Kakashi can stand up to Sasuke.



Kakashi was not portrayed as being as emotionally invested in Sasuke as Sakura or Naruto, so it stands to reason that he was looking at Sasuke as an enemy of Konoha rather than his student. 



Lucky7 said:


> Growing up as a normal child doesn't mean a person completely lacks depth, empathy, or insight for those who've had it worse than you. Ino had that in spades when she was a little girl, and she had a normal childhood as well, despite being from a clan. Sakura lacking in insight or learned wisdom is not because she's had a normal childhood, its just part of her personality to be dense and vapid. In fact, one would think this would work in her favor to understanding them, but she's too much of an empty character for that.



I never said that a normal child doesn't lack empathy or insight. Only that Sakura had 0 chances of reaching Sasuke. She didn't know about the Uchiha massacre, and she was crude to Naruto about a situation as an orphan. 



Lucky7 said:


> But Naruto, both before and after that pathetic episode, stood up to Sasuke as an equal. Sakura couldn't, despite resolving to do so, and never will.



What do you mean as an equal? In combat prowess or emotional investment?



Lucky7 said:


> The reason people find Sakura's pining for Sasuke more pathetic than Naruto's is the lack of anything actually substantial in their relationship coupled with her submissive behavior towards him she still has.



Her submissive behavior was pretty pathetic, but Naruto's relationship with Sasuke is only a bit more substantial than Sakura's. Kishi had to throw in childhood flashbacks and the fact they were transmigrated brothers to make them seem like they had a bond deeper than they actually had. 



Lucky7 said:


> The difference between Sasuke mistreating Naruto is that at least Naruto can take his shit and send it right back. Sakura gets insulted or hurt by him and she breaks down and doesn't say anything. Naruto is willing to fight and kill Sasuke if he gets out of line. Sakura can just stand there with a kunai and cry about it.



This is what it looks like if you look at it initially, but between Naruto and Sakura, who is *really* more pathetic in their pursuit of Sasuke? Naruto has shown time and time again no matter how Sasuke slights him and the people important to him, he will always forgive him and welcome him back with open arms. Naruto is not willing to kill Sasuke, not even when the world is at stake. 



Lucky7 said:


> Exactly. Hinata, Ino, and Tenten were main supporting characters in Part 1. Tsunade and Mei were Kage and thus highly intrinsic to the story. Konan was a member of the villain organization of the manga and directly linked to it's leader. Samui and Karui are side characters so perhaps they don't count. Kurenai is the jounin instructor to Team 8, and just like her fellow jounin instructor characters she should have got her proper dues. Temari had a fair amount of panel time for a side character, so I'd say she counts. Of all these characters, only Tsunade, Konan, and Temari come out of this okay, and Ino is a maybe. The rest? Kishi fucked up in some form or fashion.



Showing up at some point in the story does not guarantee that a character will get a meaningful amount of panel time. You can be in one arc and never appear or be important again. When you listed the females above, did you think about how much growth and importance were placed on them *in relation* to their panel time? If you say Konan and Temari are fine, you have to agree that just about every other female listed above are fine to, because all Konan and Temari really did was have a flashback to their childhoods and fight. The both of them were static characters.

With that said, of the Konoha 12 sans Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura, the females got more panel time than the males and actually contributed to the war in big ways.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## heartsutra (Apr 28, 2015)

*Your Mileage May Vary*

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Kishimoto is sexist & I think we really need to stop judging people we haven't and probably won't ever interact with personally. Even when we think something is obnoxiously blatant, we could be wrong. 

I can agree that there are elements that _can_ be read as sexist throughout the story, though. But there is no universal, generalizable mold for what a (strong) woman is. _Kishimoto not portraying women in the way that fits my subjective idea of a strong woman does NOT equal sexism._

My goal isn't necessarily to argue with people who think that Kishimoto implies through Naruto that women are really the weaker sex, because it is a legit subjective way to read it, I think. It is just that I want to provide an alternative way of reading the story, especially characters such as Sakura and Hinata. 

Although feminist theories are diverse and not all feminists agree on the boundaries of what sexism is in detail, the term sexism has been coined by feminist theories to fight normative hierarchies or judgmental rankings for sexes. Most common default sexist assumption is prolly

Male (a.k.a. First class)
Female (a.k.a. Second class)
& More recently: Others (a.k.a. Marginalized shit)
Nice to see people caring for feminist theories tho, you may want to read up on more topics of feminism [], js~

*Ok, what would be sexist in my eyes?*

Oppression: Someone is less valuable than someone else because they are a certain sex
Oppression: Certain sexes are dominated/oppressed by another sex
Oppression: Sex is the defining trait, individual abilities and skill sets are ignored
No diversity: There is a 'right' way for specific sexes to behave, think and act
A form of oppression: Objectifying certain body traits that are associated with one sex or another; this is a form of oppression because the objectified person are robbed of their subjectivity

*Notions I agree with in context of NARUTO, the manga*

Focus is significantly on platonic, especially male platonic bonds. Many promising female personalities are sidelined and don't receive much attention compared to male personalities as the stories unfurl
Relatively affirmative towards heteronormativity – meaning heterosexual desire appears to be the norm while other sexual desires fall under the table. Heterosexual assumptions about sexes are favored, men are usually romantically interested in women and vice-versa, little variety in this department
Kishimoto puts his characters through a lot of shit a.k.a. muh tragic past/childhood (Sasuke, Sakura, Gaara, Naruto, Hinata, Bee, Pein)
Kishi tends to reproduce conservative/stereotypical normative patterns for specific sexes in his culture (Temari kind of smashes this though … I love her)


*Why I don't think Naruto is a sexist manga:*

Diversity: There is a wide variety of personality types when it comes to all genders represented in the Manga. 
Diversity: Physical portrayal of females was varied and did not only cater to idealistic fantasies
Equality: We had extrovert, introvert, intuitive, logical, empathetic males and females, we also had taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu specialists of both sexes.
Equality: Male had significantly more moments to shine in comparison to female characters, this is true. However, there are plenty female characters that had their moment as well, though. Off the top of my head: Hinata, Sakura, Tsunade, Chiyo, Konan
Equality: We female Kage, we had female members in councils, female ambassadors, there were female shinobi (kunoichi)
I guess this counts towards Equality: Boobs get a little bit of focus from time to time, but so does the penis. (Thanks, Sai!) However, women aren't reduced to boob size in here, neither are men reduced to their penis size.)
Brownie point from me: There is relatively little erotic fanservice, OP said this as well
→ Women weren't portrayed as inferior to men in all aspects and not by default. I'd rather say Naruto propagates old-fashioned concepts which don't necessarily need to be sexist concepts.


*What I think Kishimoto conveys (or tries to, welp):*

Don't give up, no matter who you are. Be honest with yourself. Persevere (ex. Naruto, Lee, Hinata, Sakura)
Everyone is different and needs to find their place in society based on their abilities. Everyone has their way and their place in the world (prime example would be Hinata I guess, Naruto and Haku as well)
Teamwork is key, if you try to do everything by yourself, you are more likely to fail (Itachi)

Last but not least

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Seelentau (Apr 28, 2015)

Judging a foreign manga by your home country's standards will never work.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Lucky7 (Apr 28, 2015)

> She gave up trying to kill him because she got in a situation where it was plausible and couldn't go through. It's not weird that someone chokes in a situation like this. People do all kinds of mental and beforehand prep for things and choke. Nothing can prepare someone for the gravity of the situation except the situation itself.


Exactly. Sakura, for all her bravado and faux strength "Do you think I'm just a weak woman" but when shit gets real and actual ninja shit is required she fails and falters because she cannot hande her emotions or keep it together like her male counterparts. The difference in this situation is that Sakura fails and stays failing. _She didn't just fail, she gave up on ever trying despite this being her only non pairing fodder goal. When faced with this situation again, she couldn't even muster enough to will to try. _ She even admits that sitting there crying is the only thing she is able to do in 693 as her last contribution as heroine to this manga about ninjas in whichs she was just as much ninja as them.


> What do you mean as an equal? In combat prowess or emotional investment?


Inner strength and assertion. Sakura can't stand up to Sasuke as an equal in any physical, emotional, or mental way. She constantly allows herself to be beneath them because she doesn't have the heart to do anything else. I'm not asking for Sakrua to roflstomp Sasuke or punch him in the air. In fact, I wouldn't care if she got murked almost immediately. I would have respected her if she _at least tried._ If she tried to do or be anything different. But ehr character remains static. 


> Her submissive behavior was pretty pathetic, but Naruto's relationship with Sasuke is only a bit more substantial than Sakura's. Kishi had to throw in childhood flashbacks and the fact they were transmigrated brothers to make them seem like they had a bond deeper than they actually had.


At least they had something. All Sakura remembers about her connection with is her fangirling over him while he blankly stares into the distance, his back or being in Team 7, and him thanking her for caring (and, according to the novels, the times he called annoying with all the times he did so being meant as insults and/or preceding something negative). At least Sasuke reciprocates as strongly. 


> This is what it looks like if you look at it initially, but between Naruto and Sakura, who is really more pathetic in their pursuit of Sasuke? Naruto has shown time and time again no matter how Sasuke slights him and the people important to him, he will always forgive him and welcome him back with open arms. Naruto is not willing to kill Sasuke, not even when the world is at stake.


Sakura. Because while there both pathetic at least Naruto gets two straight chapters of Sasuke gushing over how he equally enriched his life and how much he loves him while Sakura is stuck with the leftovers of Team 7 and being left alone with a baby for 12 years with 0 contact after the intial 3  years she was alone after he was redeemed. At least Naruto has moved on with his life and isn't still miserable and feeling like shit over him like Sakura. 


> Showing up at some point in the story does not guarantee that a character will get a meaningful amount of panel time. You can be in one arc and never appear or be important again. When you listed the females above, did you think about how much growth and importance were placed on them in relation to their panel time? If you say Konan and Temari are fine, you have to agree that just about every other female listed above are fine to, because all Konan and Temari really did was have a flashback to their childhoods and fight. The both of them were static characters.
> 
> With that said, of the Konoha 12 sans Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura, the females got more panel time than the males and actually contributed to the war in big ways.


I see your point, but being static doesn't necessarily denote whether they lack depth. Konan, Tsunade, and Temari were all characters with a relative amount of depth, and in the end Konan and Tsunade had full character arcs more or less. Of the K11 and younger kunoichi. only Ino and Sakura (if you lower your standards for what a character arc is for a main character) can say this. Hinata? Revolved around love but never actually got with said love interest on screen or even interacted with him in 80 chapters. Tenten? Barely even fleshed out. Karui? Samui? Kurenai? Yugao? Yugito? Anko? Same deal. Like I said, I wouldn't really call him "sexist" but the females he does focus on are either heavily revolving around love (Sakura and Hinata), treated like pairing fodder (Kurenai's father telling his daughter that because she is a woman she should at least live long enough to bare a child), or just not given panel time or focus. 

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I disagree that Kishi is free from preconceived, rather dated, notions about women.


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## Bellville (Apr 28, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> She gave up trying to kill him because she got in a situation where it was plausible and couldn't go through. It's not weird that someone chokes in a situation like this. People do all kinds of mental and beforehand prep for things and choke. Nothing can prepare someone for the gravity of the situation except the situation itself.


When I think of Sakura freezing up in the Iron Country arc... 

Did Kishi need to take it to the next level though? He took the time to have Kakashi mention that after all the testing Orochimaru did on Sasuke, even if Sakura landed so much as a scratch on him like she intended, the poison she put on her kunai would not have worked. _Kishi took the time to point out that even if Sakura succeeded in carrying out her half-baked plan, she would have failed anyway._


> Naruto is not willing to kill Sasuke, not even when the world is at stake.


Did I misread the part where Naruto declared he was going to get himself killed just to stop Sasuke or...


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## Bender (Apr 28, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Judging a foreign manga by your home country's standards will never work.



Thus why I continue to chuckle at all the bullshit labels thrown at Kishi.


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## Raniero (Apr 28, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> I see your point, but being static doesn't necessarily denote whether they lack depth. Konan, Tsunade, and Temari were all characters with a relative amount of depth, and in the end Konan and Tsunade had full character arcs more or less. Of the K11 and younger kunoichi. only Ino and Sakura (if you lower your standards for what a character arc is for a main character) can say this. Hinata? Revolved around love but never actually got with said love interest on screen or even interacted with him in 80 chapters. Tenten? Barely even fleshed out. Karui? Samui? Kurenai? Yugao? Yugito? Anko? Same deal. Like I said, I wouldn't really call him "sexist" but the females he does focus on are either heavily revolving around love (Sakura and Hinata), treated like pairing fodder (Kurenai's father telling his daughter that because she is a woman she should at least live long enough to bare a child), or just not given panel time or focus.
> 
> I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I disagree that Kishi is free from preconceived, rather dated, notions about women.


Temari and Ino have no more depth than Hinata. Temari was barely an existent character and totally static. As for Ino, when did she have a character arc? 

Hinata had an entire character arc in the Chunin Exams and an interesting, fleshed out backstory that existed outside of Naruto. The problem was that it was ignored in part 2.


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## Lucky7 (Apr 28, 2015)

> Hinata had an entire character arc in the Chunin Exams and an interesting, fleshed out backstory that existed outside of Naruto. The problem was that it was ignored in part 2.


I agree completely about Hinata. But Temari wasn't reduced to loving Shikamaru as her only defining points, and Ino had her sensei die, avenged his death, had to hear her father die but have him tell her he was proud of her, and went on to contribute greatly in the War. 

Now, don't get me wrong, Hinata's moments with Naruto were of depth, but they were also saturated with this overfocus on loving Naruto that these traits that eventually became her entire character.


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## Lucky7 (Apr 28, 2015)

^I agree with that to an extent as well. Like I said regarding Sakura, perhaps its because Kishi is just frustrated and doesn't like writing her character, because the other females had a degree of depth and background that she lacked. However, the overfocus on the fact that she loved Naruto became so great that it eventually became her entire character, and lead to moments that even I, as someone who still really likes Hinata, couldn't defend.


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## Raniero (Apr 28, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> I agree completely about Hinata. But Temari wasn't reduced to loving Shikamaru as her only defining points


Temari barely had enough screentime for her to have any defining points. 



> and Ino had her sensei die, avenged his death, had to hear her father die but have him tell her he was proud of her, and went on to contribute greatly in the War.


I could say the same about Hinata.

Really, you seem to ignore how her feelings for Sasuke always did have a habit of being brought up. "Don't lose in love to Sakura." Crying over Sasuke after the Pain Arc. Thinking of Sasuke after her father died. Dreaming of Sasuke and Sai fighting over her.  



> Now, don't get me wrong, Hinata's moments with Naruto were of depth, but they were also saturated with this overfocus on loving Naruto that these traits that eventually became her entire character.


I feel like _everybody_ became Naruto's satellite during the war. Hinata is only singled out because she loved the guy.

I've never seen her love for Naruto as a negative to her character. Because that's the reason Hinata ever managed to better herself. I wish her background and her clan issues had more focus, but I fail to see how her feelings are detrimental.

EDIT: Seriously, to this day, Hinata easily has one of the best backgrounds and depth out of the female characters in part 1. Kishimoto just failed to do shit with it.


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## Alkaid (Apr 28, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> I agree completely about Hinata. But Temari wasn't reduced to loving Shikamaru as her only defining points,



Her loving Shikamaru wasn't really a point. People saw her and Shikamaru walking together in part 2 and assumed a relationship between the 2. For all we know it could have in fact been an entirely platonic relationship.



Lucky7 said:


> Now, don't get me wrong, Hinata's moments with Naruto were of depth, but they were also saturated with this overfocus on loving Naruto that these traits that eventually became her entire character.



They are over focused on loving Naruto if you choose to see them that way. The only moment you can say she had with him where her love was the motivating factor was Pain and parts of the chuunin exam arc. 

As far as Hinata's goals go besides Naruto, she wanted to be more confident and she succeeded in that. As far as characters go in Naruto, Hinata qualifies as the most dynamic character in the series when you compare her part 1 personality to her personality in the war arc. It's just a fact that most of her growth occurred while she was with Naruto.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 29, 2015)

Hinata did have other parts to her character, most notably wanting to change herself and become strong for non romantic reasons during the Chuunin exams. It's just that, like everyone else, Hinata's shit got completely ignored in favor of more Naruto and Sasuke shenanigans until everything about her bar her crush was conveniently resolved off panel.

The reason why Sakura gets so much more flak is because she's present for the Naruto and Sasuke shit since she's a member of the team (meaning she gets a lot more screen time than other females) yet continues to do nothing relevant except when horribly contrived (like the kaguya punch.)

One major flaw with kishi is that he mix's up concepts.

He seems to think that a "strong willed women" = Bitch with a temper.


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## N120 (Apr 29, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Judging a foreign manga by your home country's standards will never work.



Charlies Angels was sexist, Men just didn't watch it.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 29, 2015)

The sad part is Sakura was actually likeable in the last.

She was nice, supportive, and most importantly, she fucking did stuff.


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## Alkaid (Apr 29, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The sad part is Sakura was actually likeable in the last.
> 
> She was nice, supportive, and most importantly, she fucking did stuff.



That was a movie, I don't really count that.


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## N120 (Apr 29, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The sad part is Sakura was actually likeable in the last.
> 
> She was nice, supportive, and most importantly, she fucking did stuff.



That's debatable. In any case that's a matter of taste, it's subjective. And either way That doesn't imply sexism, her character not living up to the expectations of fandom doesn't make kishi sexist.


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## Zef (Apr 29, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Judging a foreign manga by your home country's standards will never work.



And we have a winner.


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## Bloo (Apr 29, 2015)

Hmm... Sexist is a very strong word in my opinion. I'm a huge feminist, but I think Kishimoto's problem is that he just thinks that maybe men and women think differently. While, social pressures and gender expectations do influence men and women to think differently, he is the one making this world and I just don't think he realizes that he doesn't need to (or should) go off of gender expectations for defining characters.


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 12, 2015)

I think Kishi is sexist, but not ofensively sexist. 
Japan society is very sexist, also the manga targets male tenagers and theres not explicit superiority of male characters over females.
Its not wrong for a girl to be emotional or weak, the problem is the manga is not giving a good image about how real girls are, and that can hurt some people,s sensibility, specially for those who suffer sexism daily at home (like me)

I can understand Kishi,s pseudo-sexism, but I also can understand people who feels like something,s wrong with female characters


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## Shinryu (May 13, 2015)

Japan is a sexist society. Female protagonist usually get in a romantic plot tumor that makes look like shallow sluts.

/Get over it


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## Sanrio88 (May 14, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The problem is there's like 1 female who does that in the whole series... and she's the only noticeable female...
> 
> which is Sakura...
> 
> As for the other female they are just irrelevant that they can be considered as background character until Kishi can find a use for them and then they're back to being irrelevant.. same with other male with the exception of Nardo and Sauce. Mostly sauce because around part 2 there are point in the manga that Nardo became Irrelevant...





pretty much.


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## Bissen (May 14, 2015)

I honestly didn't really know about feminism until I joined tumblr in November. I never thought about it. I'm female, by the way. It's not been until I've seen all the bitching on how sexist Kishi (and the whole world, really) is, that I see what they mean.

I really believe it just didn't occur to him. I don't think he'd intentionally do something like that. Sure, I'll agree that many female characters are... being treated not so good, but so are many males. Sasuke spent most of the time (at least pre Shippuuden) having his ass kicked and losing all the time (Lee, Itachi, Naruto). That's pretty sad.

Long story short, I don't think Kishi is sexist. I think he's just a man who didn't think about it. He seems quite sympathetic.


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## Zensuki (May 14, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> A lot of people call Kishi sexist for his poorly written female characters. I believe this to be false. I genuinely believe that he had no idea how to approach the few females that had a decent amount of screen time. I really think he is awkward when it comes to things like this.
> 
> Why do I believe this you ask? *Because he doesn't even use his females for fan service*. Out of 700 chapters of an extremely popular manga, I cannot think of one panel that Kishi has drawn that can qualify as blatant fan service. And if he has at any point, he does it very rarely. Naruto is the only long running shounen I can think of in this situation, I.E 100+ chapters.



Thats why Kishi gets respect.


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## ?clair (May 15, 2015)

I don't think Kishimoto is sexist. In Japan, there is an underlying sense of gender roles rooted into their culture, society, etc., so while they might not feel like it's sexist, we certainly do. This is because we're from a completely contrasting society, where gender roles are blurred and sexism is so publicized and exaggerated that everyone and their grandma screams in outrage when something that's even remotely discriminatory on the basis of gender comes up. 

To someone from a conservative culture, they might feel like gender roles are the right thing to stick to. The western ideal, however, is that men and women are equal. This leads to people completely rejecting different schools of thought, because _their way is the only way_.

Yes, restricting people because of their genitalia is lame and stupid, but it's _their _culture. Screaming at a mangaka because they're simply doing what they love (while keeping true to their societal norms) is just plain dumb, because a couple of people on the internet won't change shit.


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## Patrick (May 15, 2015)

It's just Japan really. It's not that they hate women or anything but they're just used to the concept of men being superior. Nothing off actually, it's just like in western culture till about 40-50 years ago. Japan will go through this development as well eventually and then we'll probably be seeing better written female characters. 

Don't just blame this on Kishi though, he's a bad writer but not some kind of inherent sexist.


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## ?clair (May 15, 2015)

Another thing: if you're reading a shounen manga, the female characters are obviously going to be fodderfuck material. These manga are geared towards boys. Boys who think that girls are icky and weak and pick flowers all day long. Do you honestly think any mangaka decently versed in the world of marketing would try to one-up his male characters with a female character just to appease to the foreign fans who probably don't even contribute to the overall sales, while risking backlash from overly-sensitive, prepubescent boys?

Obviously, the mangaka will focus on making the manga more appealing towards young and teenaged males. Why? Because that's his main audience (in Japan, at least).

If you want a kickass female character, go read other genres of manga, because shounen won't be changing the stereotypical roles any time soon.


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## Romanticide (May 15, 2015)

I'd say yes. For one, he said Sakura would be "a terrible woman" to give up on her "love" for Sasuke. Somehow.


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## Turrin (May 15, 2015)

I give Kishi a-lot of shit, but he's not sexist. Sexism is discrimination of certain sex based on gender roles. Kishi does not subscribe to this. He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru]. He clearly doesn't subscribe to the idea that women are inferior fighters to men, as he made the strongest entity in the verse female and numerous times has characters talk about how women are stronger than men in terms of will power or strength of character. The criticisms people have against Kishi equally apply to men and women. Sakura defining her intrinsic worth and being obsessed with a man, is equally display by the male character Obito and his obsession with Rin. A large number of female characters being irrelevant on the PII power-scale is equally seen in the male characters being irrelevant as well, basically all the rookies and largely the supporting cast in general were trolled male and female alike. In terms of being caricatures, almost all the characters in the series male and female alike are placed in streotypical manga roles, so again he's not discriminating against females, he's just using a Manga writing tactic, which is present in most manga and used to give characters identifiable "personal traits" to make them otherwise stand out when there isn't much story to tell for that character. 

Bottom line is there is nothing sexist about Kishi's writing. People simply throw out that complaint as means of attacking him, for the fact that their fave characters got trolled.



Hollow'd Heart said:


> I'd say yes. For one, he said Sakura would be "a terrible woman" to give up on her "love" for Sasuke. Somehow.


And he'd say the same thing about Naruto. That's not Kishi being sexist that just Kishi having weird moral values in general

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 15, 2015)

I think the manga currently having a female lead character should dispel this notion


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## Summers (May 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I give Kishi a-lot of shit, but he's not sexist. Sexism is discrimination of certain sex based on gender roles. Kishi does not subscribe to this. He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru]. He clearly doesn't subscribe to the idea that women are inferior fighters to men, as he made the strongest entity in the verse female and numerous times has characters talk about how women are stronger than men in terms of will power or strength of character. The criticisms people have against Kishi equally apply to men and women. Sakura defining her intrinsic worth and being obsessed with a man, is equally display by the male character Obito and his obsession with Rin. A large number of female characters being irrelevant on the PII power-scale is equally seen in the male characters being irrelevant as well, basically all the rookies and largely the supporting cast in general were trolled male and female alike. In terms of being caricatures, almost all the characters in the series male and female alike are placed in streotypical manga roles, so again he's not discriminating against females, he's just using a Manga writing tactic, which is present in most manga and used to give characters identifiable "personal traits" to make them otherwise stand out when there isn't much story to tell for that character.
> 
> Bottom line is there is nothing sexist about Kishi's writing. People simply throw out that complaint as means of attacking him, for the fact that their fave characters got trolled.
> 
> ...


As they say in battledome, Good Game.


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## ?clair (May 15, 2015)

Basically, it's not the person, it's the culture.


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## Alkaid (May 15, 2015)

Hollow'd Heart said:


> I'd say yes. For one, he said Sakura would be "a terrible woman" to give up on her "love" for Sasuke. Somehow.



Wasn't this misinterpreted and actually meant that she would be "a terrible woman" to give up on her "love" for Sasuke only after Naruto had become famous?


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## Sora (May 15, 2015)

he's not sexist he just can't write female characters well he said himself actually


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## Bellville (May 15, 2015)

If the culture Kishimoto comes from is sexist and he adopts those views as his own, he's still a sexist. An American being racist because that's just the 'culture' there is not free from being labeled a racist. 


Sora said:


> he's not sexist he just can't write female characters well he said himself actually



women are not alien to men though. they shouldn't be seen as so VASTLY different from men that they can't be written as decent characters. i could almost give the guy a pass on not knowing how to write young/adolescent girls, but if he can't even write adult female characters then it's a clear sign the guy has some mental barriers up that he isn't working around. he's so stuck on perceived differences between genders he won't just write a character he thinks is good and stick the boy/girl label on it. a trait seen in a guy is 'scary' or 'shocking' when put into a female.


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## Summers (May 15, 2015)

Authors can write flawed OR even bad female characters and not be sexist, there will be many mistakes when men are trying to write dialogue for girls. 
its is a common criticism for many forms of fiction. Look through goodreads comment/reviews, the charge gets hurled constantly, mainly because there are not enough strong women, not because they are no strong women.


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## Alucardemi (May 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I give Kishi a-lot of shit, but he's not sexist. Sexism is discrimination of certain sex based on gender roles. Kishi does not subscribe to this. He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru]. He clearly doesn't subscribe to the idea that women are inferior fighters to men, as he made the strongest entity in the verse female and numerous times has characters talk about how women are stronger than men in terms of will power or strength of character. The criticisms people have against Kishi equally apply to men and women. Sakura defining her intrinsic worth and being obsessed with a man, is equally display by the male character Obito and his obsession with Rin. A large number of female characters being irrelevant on the PII power-scale is equally seen in the male characters being irrelevant as well, basically all the rookies and largely the supporting cast in general were trolled male and female alike. In terms of being caricatures, almost all the characters in the series male and female alike are placed in streotypical manga roles, so again he's not discriminating against females, he's just using a Manga writing tactic, which is present in most manga and used to give characters identifiable "personal traits" to make them otherwise stand out when there isn't much story to tell for that character.
> 
> Bottom line is there is nothing sexist about Kishi's writing. People simply throw out that complaint as means of attacking him, for the fact that their fave characters got trolled.
> 
> ...



A terrific post, Turrin. Hat-tip to you.


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## Seelentau (May 16, 2015)

It gets really funny when people think that Kishimoto absolutely has to cater to their agenda. It's his manga, if he wants to write a weak woman that gets saved by a strong man all the time, it's his right as the author to do so.
Sure, people are free to criticize him, but hating him for it is just ridiculous. It's not like there aren't bigger problems in real life.


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## Doc Mindstorm (May 16, 2015)

Kishi releasing shonen genre manga in shonen magazine. 
Shōnen (少年), shonen, or shounen, is a kango word literally means few years and generally referring to a typical boy, from elementary school through high school age.
Yeap he is very sexist.


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## Ganta (May 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and *Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru].*



Is it not more accurate to _say_ she continued with Nagato's controlling interest of _Pein-*l*oyal*s*_, rather than a takeover? .


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## Raiden (May 16, 2015)

Not sure if he's sexist, but you basically have a perfect storm. Undeveloped characters, several of which have personal problems, and editors who were interested in pairing up characters before developing an actual story.


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## ?clair (May 16, 2015)

Raiden said:


> Not sure if he's sexist, but you basically have a perfect storm. Undeveloped characters, several of which have personal problems, and editors who were interested in *pairing up characters *before developing an actual story.



Ugh. The ending pissed me off because of this. All of a sudden, they're in love and popping out babies like it's the end of the world.


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## Sansa (May 16, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> A lot of people call Kishi sexist for his poorly written female characters. I believe this to be false. I genuinely believe that he had no idea how to approach the few females that had a decent amount of screen time. I really think he is awkward when it comes to things like this.
> 
> Why do I believe this you ask? Because he doesn't even use his females for fan service. Out of 700 chapters of an extremely popular manga, I cannot think of one panel that Kishi has drawn that can qualify as blatant fan service. And if he has at any point, he does it very rarely. Naruto is the only long running shounen I can think of in this situation, I.E 100+ chapters.



The sexist claims stem from Kishi refusing to let his female characters develop and grow up and just overall giving them a small role in the series compared to the males.

Ino is like the only female character from part 1 who actually outgrew her bad habits for example and Hinata despite being his "main heroin" actually barely got screen time.

That and he just seemed to relegate them to being pairing fodder after a while and stopped trying to make them do anything useful (see TenTen) and generally weaker than the males (I don't think any of the females could fight any of the males at full power at win).

He either doesn't know how to write female characters or he just intentionally writes them badly


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## Romanticide (May 16, 2015)

Bleach, OP and even Fairy Tail treat their females characters better, and they're all in Shonen magazines and "for boys" so that argument doesn't work.


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## ?clair (May 17, 2015)

Don't even mention Fairy Tail as an example for "better" treatment. The amount of fanservice and boobage is annoying.


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## Romanticide (May 17, 2015)

The guys get equal fanservice in the series too though.


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## Seelentau (May 17, 2015)

But the thing is that Kishi doesn't have to give his females better treatment if he doesn't want to. It's his story, it's fictional and it's not his job to cater to the feminist agenda.
I mean, he's not doing actual harm to any real life woman, is he?
Also, for every female character who's treated badly, there's a male character who's had a hard life as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## VileNotice (May 17, 2015)

Yep, he's sexist. Shows up more in some areas than others.

Look at the Kage, for example. The men are totally diverse in their appearances and motivations. Tsunade and Mei? Both big-boobed bombshells who are hung up on love in one way or another.

I give Tsunade a pass ? looking young and beautiful is part of her character, and I think it works. She got some good development in Part I and her love of Dan is significant but doesn?t impede on her independence.

Mei, on the other hand, is basically fanservice. I don?t dislike her design by any means, but having her, the second female kage seen in the series, be based around being gorgeous just like Tsunade is lazy. And realistically speaking, I would think more of the top female ninja in the Naruto world would have more ?butch? physical traits ? there are surely enough bishonen males in the mix to contrast them with.

(That said, I think Mei would have worked awesomely as a lesbian character)


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## CrazyAries (May 17, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> But the thing is that Kishi doesn't have to give his females better treatment if he doesn't want to. It's his story, it's fictional and it's not his job to cater to the feminist agenda.
> I mean, he's not doing actual harm to any real life woman, is he?
> Also, for every female character who's treated badly, there's a male character who's had a hard life as well.



I just had to post to say this:

Just because someone brings up the treatment of females in this manga that does not they have "an agenda" or are some "feminist." There are plenty of people following this story who have complaints, yet don't identify themselves as feminists. You might as well say someone who wanted Lee to have more focus in the manga had an agenda and that would be more apt. It's just that the way certain characters are treated, and the differences between men and women in this story really stick out.

In regards to some male characters having "hard lives," while that is torturous for the characters themselves, it may or may not be seen as  giving depth to them. The problem some of us have is that most females of equal importance to some males have less depth in comparison and their motivations are thus given less weight. Also, I have to agree with Choa that if any woman was put up against any man at full strength, I would expect the man to win.

That said, no one has accused Kishimoto of doing harm to real-life females...beyond pairings. I don't believe most of the females in the story serve as real-life role models. The same is certainly true for most of the males, but that speaks to the job Kishimoto has done with character development overall.

Now, like you said, Kishimoto has and will write his story the way he wants -- with some influence from his environment and with an amount of input from his editors  -- but character intricacies are his doing alone and thus that may say something about him.


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## Seelentau (May 17, 2015)

Well, as I said earlier, judging a foreign manga by your country's standards won't work. What you deem as sexism, Kishimoto deems as perfectly fine, simply because he comes from a different culture.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 17, 2015)

As sexist as an average 4chan user.


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## Tapion (May 17, 2015)

If the problem was not being able to write females, then his editors should have told him to create a character with no gender, give them their backstory and everything and then when he's finished making that character, the editor tells him "now don't change anything, make that character a woman".


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## Ashi (May 18, 2015)

Tapion said:


> If the problem was not being able to write females, then his editors should have told him to create a character with no gender, give them their backstory and everything and then when he's finished making that character, the editor tells him "now don't change anything, make that character a woman".



So A blank canvas with tits = Female Character in a Kishimoto manga?


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## Alkaid (May 18, 2015)

Tapion said:


> If the problem was not being able to write females, then his editors should have told him to create a character with no gender, give them their backstory and everything and then when he's finished making that character, the editor tells him "now don't change anything, make that character a woman".



If that's your thought process for what would constitute a female character, why make one at all?


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## Bellville (May 18, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Well, as I said earlier, judging a foreign manga by your country's standards won't work. What you deem as sexism, Kishimoto deems as perfectly fine, simply because he comes from a different culture.


Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.


How one _feels_ about the sexism doesn't make it suddenly appear or disappear. It's there whether you think the sexism is acceptable or not.


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## Seelentau (May 18, 2015)

First of all, sterotypes exists for a reason.
Secondly, as I said, don't apply your countries standards on a country with an entirely different culture. Sexism in their country might begin later than it does in your country. Their definition probably differs from yours.
Your point of view isn't more correct in any way, ya know?


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## Romanticide (May 18, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> First of all, sterotypes exists for a reason.
> Secondly, as I said, don't apply your countries standards on a country with an entirely different culture. Sexism in their country might begin later than it does in your country. Their definition probably differs from yours.
> Your point of view isn't more correct in any way, ya know?



holy shit, why are you still saying this? it's obviously sexism, even native japanese people have said so.


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## Bellville (May 18, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> First of all, sterotypes exists for a reason.


And they exist to stick groups of people into neat boxes they don't necessarily fit into and likely perpetuate irrelevant thoughts/behaviors, like "Black people love watermelon". Stereotyping plays right into prejudice and discrimination so it's sure as hell not harmless because it doesn't occur in a vacuum.


> Secondly, as I said, don't apply your countries standards on a country with an entirely different culture. Sexism in their country might begin later than it does in your country. Their definition probably differs from yours.
> Your point of view isn't more correct in any way, ya know?


Women in Japan deal with being shunned in society thanks to views on motherhood, ideal age for marrying, and having a career. You have women protesting their treatment as human being because they feel like they are treated as subhuman play-things. You have sex and relationships happening with less and less frequency thanks to a mix of brutal work culture and the dilemma of adhering to Japan's old fashioned ideals of settling down. There is social unrest among Japanese people with how Japan treats women. It's pointless to go into denial about this, and there isn't justification anymore for upholding outdated, traditional ideals of women in Japan. Not only that but it's proving detrimental for the country as a whole to not just get over it already and accept women socially and economically as equal members of society. :/


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## Arya Stark (May 18, 2015)




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## Revolution (May 18, 2015)

Bellville said:


> And they exist to stick groups of people into neat boxes they don't necessarily fit into and likely perpetuate irrelevant thoughts/behaviors, like "Black people love watermelon". Stereotyping plays right into prejudice and discrimination so it's sure as hell not harmless because it doesn't occur in a vacuum.
> 
> Women in Japan deal with being shunned in society thanks to views on motherhood, ideal age for marrying, and having a career. You have women protesting their treatment as human being because they feel like they are treated as subhuman play-things. You have sex and relationships happening with less and less frequency thanks to a mix of brutal work culture and the dilemma of adhering to Japan's old fashioned ideals of settling down. There is social unrest among Japanese people with how Japan treats women. It's pointless to go into denial about this, and there isn't justification anymore for upholding outdated, traditional ideals of women in Japan. Not only that but it's proving detrimental for the country as a whole to not just get over it already and accept women socially and economically as equal members of society. :/




There is a reason for negative population growth in Japan.  Women having to choose between this submissive lifestyle and their own dreams.


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## Seelentau (May 18, 2015)

Bellville said:


> And they exist to stick groups of people into neat boxes they don't necessarily fit into and likely perpetuate irrelevant thoughts/behaviors, like "Black people love watermelon". Stereotyping plays right into prejudice and discrimination so it's sure as hell not harmless because it doesn't occur in a vacuum.
> 
> Women in Japan deal with being shunned in society thanks to views on motherhood, ideal age for marrying, and having a career. You have women protesting their treatment as human being because they feel like they are treated as subhuman play-things. You have sex and relationships happening with less and less frequency thanks to a mix of brutal work culture and the dilemma of adhering to Japan's old fashioned ideals of settling down. There is social unrest among Japanese people with how Japan treats women. It's pointless to go into denial about this, and there isn't justification anymore for upholding outdated, traditional ideals of women in Japan. Not only that but it's proving detrimental for the country as a whole to not just get over it already and accept women socially and economically as equal members of society. :/



They exist because they're true, to some degree. They don't apply to everyone, I'm aware of that.

I can't say much about the Japan-related stuff, since I don't live there and I don't really want to judge them, being a foreigner.


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## Tapion (May 18, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> If that's your thought process for what would constitute a female character, why make one at all?





TensaXZangetsu said:


> So A blank canvas with tits = Female Character in a Kishimoto manga?



Hmm I should have word that better. He fears writing female characters by his own admission, what he does is write off the female characters any way and anyhow to avoid writing them when he can (which makes them look even worse). When he doesn't write them off, he makes them dependant on their male counterparts or fall back on some outdated look on women, which he himself doesn't realise. 

Writing a character without gender is a good way to overcome his fear of writing female characters, since he avoids them and gives them less than significant roles so he doesn't have to write them at all, and to make sure he doesn't fuck it up, the editors can hold his hand when he's writing her. it also helps him to realise while a character is a female they're still a character.

So If Kishimoto had written Sakura without gender in mind, and based on his thought process of what a cool male character was, she wouldn't be _that pink haired girl who who is madly in love with Saskue that has no backstory, and only goal is to shag him_.

First step to writing a female character is to realise they're not some anomaly and that they're persons just like me and you.


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## Evil (May 18, 2015)

Revolution said:


> There is a reason for negative population growth in Japan.  Women having to choose between this submissive lifestyle and their own dreams.



Germany has the same issue, are you really saying that Germany treats women the same as Japan? Every developed nation is facing the same issue as Japan, it's doubtful it's simply because of the way Japan treats women. Low birthrate has to do with birth control, abortion, and the desire of woman to have careers, that's it.

Men cannot substitute in for women when they don't want to have children, and that has nothing to do with some ridiculous theory of oppression, it's simply a matter of fact that women don't want to have kids and they have plenty of ways of opting out now.


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## Kurokocchi (May 18, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> First of all, sterotypes exists for a reason.
> Secondly, as I said, don't apply your countries standards on a country with an entirely different culture. Sexism in their country might begin later than it does in your country. Their definition probably differs from yours.
> Your point of view isn't more correct in any way, ya know?





Bellville said:


> And they exist to stick groups of people into neat boxes they don't necessarily fit into and likely perpetuate irrelevant thoughts/behaviors, like "Black people love watermelon". Stereotyping plays right into prejudice and discrimination so it's sure as hell not harmless because it doesn't occur in a vacuum.
> 
> Women in Japan deal with being shunned in society thanks to views on motherhood, ideal age for marrying, and having a career. You have women protesting their treatment as human being because they feel like they are treated as subhuman play-things. You have sex and relationships happening with less and less frequency thanks to a mix of brutal work culture and the dilemma of adhering to Japan's old fashioned ideals of settling down. There is social unrest among Japanese people with how Japan treats women. It's pointless to go into denial about this, and there isn't justification anymore for upholding outdated, traditional ideals of women in Japan. Not only that but it's proving detrimental for the country as a whole to not just get over it already and accept women socially and economically as equal members of society. :/



You are both right and wrong. Yes Kishi's manga is sexist just like many other fictional works both in Japan and America. However it is important to take into account Japanese culture and society. Many families, especially the older adults and elders may be more of a traditionalist and have values based on such. Others like the younger generations are more likely seeking a change in society. Some of the older generations may see Japan as becoming too assimilated and more "Americanized".

For example, many traditional families in japan may use a hierarchical family structure, where the husband is in charge over the wife. Respect from children to elders are also enforced.
This is in contrast to an egalitarian family structure, where the balance is equal. American families are known to use this structure.

Japanese society has become more westernized today and some see this as a good and bad thing.

Kamui Raikiri


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## Bellville (May 18, 2015)

Evil said:


> Germany has the same issue, are you really saying that Germany treats women the same as Japan? Every developed nation is facing the same issue as Japan, it's doubtful it's simply because of the way Japan treats women. Low birthrate has to do with birth control, abortion, and the desire of woman to have careers, that's it.
> 
> Men cannot substitute in for women when they don't want to have children, and that has nothing to do with some ridiculous theory of oppression, it's simply a matter of fact that women don't want to have kids and they have plenty of ways of opting out now.



She didn't bring up Germany at all, so no she is not saying Germany is the same. Dwindling birth rates is not a bad thing in and of itself, but why they are dropping could be symptomatic of something not so great. In Japan women are expected to marry by 25 lest they be considered an _old maid_ unfit to be wed, which is ridiculous. Then they are expected to leave the work force entirely to go raise their kids and are looked down upon for trying to juggle work and the home life. You're more or less considered a neglectful mother for trying to make a living and raise kids at the same time. Someone can fact check me on this but I had read Japan doesn't really have childcare centers so women can do this because this traditional expectation is so strong even today. Everyone who has lived with a working mother knows it's bullshit to say that they are not as good as a stay at home mom just because they work outside the home. The older generation clinging to traditional values intentionally makes it difficult for new styles of family life to develop. This situation may or may not apply to Germany as well, but I don't really care because that wasn't the topic anyway.

 The women that do leave the work force, who are college educated and have degrees, come back years later and are stuck with dead end work. Not because they lack the talent or brains to move up the ranks, but because that's just how they hold women back there. Have fun being a 30-something year old receptionist with a useless degree! It's no wonder these women would be discouraged and not even bother returning to a workforce that they can never hope to advance in.


You see the fretting over marriage and getting old with the Mizukage, leader of her own damn village and she's angsting about never being able to settle down with a man 'at her age'. Then she's what... fat, tired looking and still sulking in 700? Kishi didn't merely have Kurenai scolded for being reckless, but had to bring up her sex and how she needed to live long enough to give birth. Any tired-ass line of "Just because I'm a woman you think I can't blah blah blah" or shock over a woman having some trait as opposed to nobody batting an eye if a guy did it... meh, he's sexist. This should not be conflated with being hateful of women, though he does seem to enjoy making someone like Sakura the absolute butt-monkey compared to her male protag counterparts.


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## Evil (May 18, 2015)

Bellville said:


> She didn't bring up Germany at all, so no she is not saying Germany is the same. Dwindling birth rates is not a bad thing in and of itself, but why they are dropping could be symptomatic of something not so great. In Japan women are expected to marry by 25 lest they be considered an _old maid_ unfit to be wed, which is ridiculous. Then they are expected to leave the work force entirely to go raise their kids and are looked down upon for trying to juggle work and the home life. You're more or less considered a neglectful mother for trying to make a living and raise kids at the same time. Someone can fact check me on this but I had read Japan doesn't really have childcare centers so women can do this because this traditional expectation is so strong even today. Everyone who has lived with a working mother knows it's bullshit to say that they are not as good as a stay at home mom just because they work outside the home. The older generation clinging to traditional values intentionally makes it difficult for new styles of family life to develop. This situation may or may not apply to Germany as well, but I don't really care because that wasn't the topic anyway.
> 
> The women that do leave the work force, who are college educated and have degrees, come back years later and are stuck with dead end work. Not because they lack the talent or brains to move up the ranks, but because that's just how they hold women back there. Have fun being a 30-something year old receptionist with a useless degree! It's no wonder these women would be discouraged and not even bother returning to a workforce that they can never hope to advance in.



Of course she didn't bring up Germany, you missed the whole point. What's happening in Japan isn't isolated to Japan, it's happening everywhere including countries where they have significantly better treatment of women. The only reason it's worse in Japan then in other places is because Japan's Xenophobia which limits immigration, every developed country is offsetting the decline by literally importing people, or riding off an oppressed class of people that are desperately poor and under educated.



Bellville said:


> You see the fretting over marriage and getting old with the Mizukage, leader of her own damn village and she's angsting about never being able to settle down with a man 'at her age'. Then she's what... fat, tired looking and still sulking in 700? Kishi didn't merely have Kurenai scolded for being reckless, but had to bring up her sex and how she needed to live long enough to give birth. Any tired-ass line of "Just because I'm a woman you think I can't blah blah blah" or shock over a woman having some trait as opposed to nobody batting an eye if a guy did it... meh, he's sexist. This should not be conflated with being hateful of women, though he does seem to enjoy making someone like Sakura the absolute butt-monkey compared to her male protag counterparts.



You say it shouldn't be conflated with being hateful of women, but imply that Kishi enjoys it? That's ridiculous. As you've pointed out, Japan has some old school ideas about women that are outdated, but this doesn't make Kishi a sexist. He's not asserting that this is how it should be, or this is how it shouldn't be, he's reflecting his experiences in society within his work.

If he sees a bunch of 24 year old Japanese women fretting over getting married, he's going to have that vision of a Japanese woman in his mind it doesn't mean he agrees or supports the idea that women need to be married before 25. Mei was the Mizukage, indicating that she was the strongest person in her villiage, and Tsunade was the Hokage which meant she was the leader of the strongest village in the world. It's also important to recognize that they aren't simply leaders of a villiage, they are *military* leaders recognized by the village because of their *fighting power*. 

I think it's unfair to call Kishi sexiest based on him portraying characters that reflect the real world, because he's not strictly saying "Yes this is how it should be", as opposed to saying "This is currently how it is."

As for what Kurenai's dad said to her, that sort of makes sense since one of the fundamental differences between men and women is that women can carry and bare children- men cannot. She carries the responsibility for maintaining the village populace and creating the next generation, and before you say that it's not any different for men, there is something you need to understand.

Men are disposable. 

It only takes one man to impregnate 100 women, but a woman can only be impregnated by one man, and only bear a child every 9 months. This is an important distinction and a reason why her father would say such a thing to her, while not saying it to a male ninja- he's easily replaceable, she is not. I'd say Kishi's actually pretty progressive since he depicts the villages having equal share of responsibilities between the sexes, female heads of state and council members. On top of that, women are trained with men and make units with men and fight together on the battlefield.


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## Alita (May 18, 2015)

The main reason people accuse kishi of being sexist is because of how he treated sakura. But sakura isn't the only female in this manga. There are females such as chiyo, temari, tayuya, tsunade, ino, etc. and I certainly woulden't label any of the them as bad characters. 

I think most females in this manga are at least decent or better. I dislike some males less than I do any female such as itachi or kinkatsu. 

All in all no I definitely do not view kishi as a sexist. Mashima is a true example of sexist writer imo. 95% of the time the females in his manga are only for fanservice.



Seelentau said:


> Judging a foreign manga by your home country's standards will never work.



This too. So much this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## N120 (May 19, 2015)

There's no sexism, kishi depicted each character with their own strengths and weaknesses. 

People who reject the idea of a girl being portrayed in a certain way, are the covert sexists. Blaming kishi is just their way of deflecting the blame from themselves, ie rather than openly say they would have preferred a girl to act like this and that, they blame kishi for not portraying her to act like this and that. They are objectifying women and dictating the 'right way to act.


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## Arisu (May 19, 2015)




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## N120 (May 19, 2015)

Isn't this part of the problem, why are men and women comparing which one is better? Based on what standards?


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## Seelentau (May 19, 2015)

There's no "better" or "worse". You simply can't compare men and women because they're not opposites. They're each one part of the coin that is "human". There are things that only men can do and there are things that only women can do.
I don't think Kishimoto is sexist because he isn't against women in any way. Writing his women the way he did doesn't make him a sexist any more than it would make me a murderer when I kill someone accidentally (in a car crash or whatever).
Don't know if that's a good example, but you get what I'm meaning, right? It's the intention that counts.


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## Punished Pathos (May 19, 2015)

Whoever thinks Kishimoto is sexist is a fucking SJW plain and simple.
Go on tumblr and be an SJW there 

Kishimoto isn't sexist.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shadow050 (May 19, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kishi's "sexistness" to most readers comes down to making females less relevant, weaker and mostly focused on romance while their male counterparts get unique dreams/goals of their own.
> 
> No sisterly bonds and girl friendships are also just mostly relegated to romance.
> 
> IMO Kishi simply does not understand girls well and so he writes as little as possible about them with some stereotypes here and there. I don't think he is sexist and much less misogynistic.



exactly - it comes from THE READERS and their ineptness. 

it's not sexist to happen to not have the females be the focus and whatnot (to not have them amongst the strongest characters [even though the outright strongest character was a female ], and to not focus on "sisterly bonds" [which are USUALLY fickle to "almost non existent" in the real world too]). in the end, females weren't the focus because they just happen to not be the focus. anyone who actually thinks this is "sexism" is simply a fool who doesn't understand the words/terms they're using.

maybe he feels like he doesn't understand them well and that's a reason he stays away... or maybe they just happen to not be the focus in this particular story/series/etc... or maybe the penchant for bitching that so many readers was foreseen, and he choose the path he though would be less critical (because had he chosen to focus on females, believe me it would have been seen as even more "sexist" by the same types of people)... 

i'm in a "minority group" (or protected class) and i myself can see the ridiculous burdens put on creators for either taking on the task of having minority groups involved. creators tend to be "damned if they do, damned if they don't", so it's best that they ignore the shit from others, and make their thing - some will like it, some will not... regardless.



Alkaid said:


> A lot of people call Kishi sexist for his poorly written female characters. I believe this to be false. I genuinely believe that he had no idea how to approach the few females that had a decent amount of screen time. I really think he is awkward when it comes to things like this.
> 
> Why do I believe this you ask? Because he doesn't even use his females for fan service. Out of 700 chapters of an extremely popular manga, I cannot think of one panel that Kishi has drawn that can qualify as blatant fan service. And if he has at any point, he does it very rarely. Naruto is the only long running shounen I can think of in this situation, I.E 100+ chapters.



Kishi wasn't "sexist" with the characters he wrote. people are just extremely dumb when it comes to common sense regarding the sexes. 

kishi had a few 'ecchi' style moments, but hardly anything truly gratuitous - so you're definitely right. 

"so how sexist was he?" he wasn't.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arya Stark (May 19, 2015)

i wouldn't_ exactly_ call him sexist but he's obviously old-fashioned and prude


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## Addy (May 19, 2015)

Arisu said:


>



no. just no


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## Shadow050 (May 19, 2015)

Bellville said:


> And they exist to stick groups of people into neat boxes they don't necessarily fit into and likely perpetuate irrelevant thoughts/behaviors, like "Black people love watermelon". Stereotyping plays right into prejudice and discrimination so it's sure as hell not harmless because it doesn't occur in a vacuum.
> 
> Women in Japan deal with being shunned in society thanks to views on motherhood, ideal age for marrying, and having a career. You have women protesting their treatment as human being because they feel like they are treated as subhuman play-things. You have sex and relationships happening with less and less frequency thanks to a mix of brutal work culture and the dilemma of adhering to Japan's old fashioned ideals of settling down. There is social unrest among Japanese people with how Japan treats women. It's pointless to go into denial about this, and there isn't justification anymore for upholding outdated, traditional ideals of women in Japan. Not only that but it's proving detrimental for the country as a whole to not just get over it already and accept women socially and economically as equal members of society. :/





Revolution said:


> There is a reason for negative population growth in Japan.  Women having to choose between this submissive lifestyle and their own dreams.



men and women have commonly had a hard time understanding each other... especially in the more modern times... and ESPECIALLY with things like feminism poisoning everything it comes into contact with - including Japan.

perhaps people have caught wind of "MGTOW"?

well Japan has their own version called herbivore men or something like that.
People think population growth is slowing down in Japan because women are choosing careers and stuff more? heh, maybe... that's probably part of it. but men are getting hip to the BS and are doing their part to return the collective "fuck you" that's been being directed at them too. ALL of this however, is a result that feminism has wrought - as that ideology itself frowns upon things like motherhood and places women in uncomfortable positions.

choosing between being submissive and their own dreams.... these concepts are not mutually exclusive, so phrasing things this way is not right nor accurate. 

if people apply common sense, the various stereotypes will not be so detrimental... people CHOOSE to make things an issue, because bitching tends to generate sympathy and coddling in their favor which allows to them to take less responsibility and accountability across the board... AND allows them to be "protected" while they demand better treatment and more benefits and such that they almost always phrase as some sort of "right".

it's bullshit (with just a pinch of truth), like it usually is.


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## Arisu (May 19, 2015)

Addy said:


> no. just no


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## ch1p (May 19, 2015)

Kishi is sexist, he certainly has moulds for women (most, if not all, are a romantic interest) and he coddles them (Tsunade, who can heal herself anyway, being the only exception). However, outside of Madara quips (and he represents the old ways), there hasn't been a single bad thing said about women in the series. Kishi is sexist, but not in a demeaning way.

Consider. Kaguya is the personification of the ancestral mother yet she's the strongest entity in the universe. Tsunade is the strongest in the Leaf village though she's filling out for her little brother and lover's dreams. Sakura is the second coming of Tsunade, with half her role being romantically oriented (to be fair, she'd care even if she wasn't in love with Sasuke). Mei is also the strongest ninja in Mist, yet she wants to get married. Kushina is Naruto's mother and who gave up on her "dream" to be Hokage, but her husband says that he would have never gotten that far if it wasn't for her. Konan is one of the only ones to get toe on toe with Obito, but once upon a time she was in love with Yahiko (she's a bit like Sakura, she'd still remain in her role if she wasn't in love with him). There is a role and a mould they adhere to, but there's nothing demeaning about that role (in all of these cases except Kaguya, these women are praised) and that doesn't stop them from being stronger either.

He certainly isn't as bad as most of his collegues at Shonen Jump and even derivatives, and he certainly isn't bad compared to the average japanese traditionalist man either. I find Kishi's sexism to be mildly annoying, but taking into account his age, the society he lives in, the demographics he writes to and that the sexism examples he gives aren't even offensive, I don't put too much stock into it.



Evil said:


> Germany has the same issue, are you really saying that Germany treats women the same as Japan? Every developed nation is facing the same issue as Japan, it's doubtful it's simply because of the way Japan treats women. Low birthrate has to do with birth control, abortion, and the desire of woman to have careers, that's it.
> 
> Men cannot substitute in for women when they don't want to have children, and that has nothing to do with some ridiculous theory of oppression, it's simply a matter of fact that women don't want to have kids and they have plenty of ways of opting out now.



Japan has a bigger problem because traditionalism is stronger than in europe or US. Their current prime minister is a very big example of it, although he has "turned" (whatever that means) his speech recently. Other than that, you're absolutely right about why low birthrate is as is.


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## Shadow050 (May 19, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Kishi is sexist, he certainly has moulds for women (most, if not all, are a romantic interest) and he coddles them (Tsunade, who can heal herself anyway, being the only exception). However, outside of Madara quips (and he represents the old ways), there hasn't been a single bad thing said about women in the series. Kishi is sexist, but not in a demeaning way.
> 
> Consider. Kaguya is the personification of the ancestral mother yet she's the strongest entity in the universe. Tsunade is the strongest in the Leaf village though she's filling out for her little brother and lover's dreams. Sakura is the second coming of Tsunade, with half her role being romantically oriented (to be fair, she'd care even if she wasn't in love with Sasuke). Mei is also the strongest ninja in Mist, yet she wants to get married. Kushina is Naruto's mother and who gave up on her "dream" to be Hokage, but her husband says that he would have never gotten that far if it wasn't for her. Konan is one of the only ones to get toe on toe with Obito, but once upon a time she was in love with Yahiko (she's a bit like Sakura, she'd still remain in her role if she wasn't in love with him).
> 
> ...



is kishi really "molding" these women in these ways and showing his supposed sexism, or is it that given their world, and common sense commonalities it has with our own, women are PROVISIONED like they pretty much has ALWAYS BEEN at every point of human history? like they have ALWAYS been in every even-remotely successful civilization? women are coddled (at times) because of our male (and female actually) instincts to provision and protect them above and before males. that's at least technically 'sexist' but you won't catch people saying so until some fool enters the fray and starts harping about SAMENESS while phrasing it as "equality" and "equal treatment" and the like. kishi having these natural and common sense aspects in his manga doesn't mean he's "sexist". 

...according to the types who are normally claiming "sexism" all of that IS demeaning. there is no sexism, in their minds that isn't demeaning _to women_. kishi is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't for these people. for these people, a guy hitting a woman is a display, support, and endorsement of male violence against women - it's also a show of male dominance over females. at the same time, not including women on the frontlines to show them as strong and powerful is infantlizing them because they're being viewed as weak and delicate flowers. women must be shown to be equal to or stronger than their male counterparts as well, otherwise it's sexism (this is the idiocy they're tapping into the most here on NF btw).
yes, these ARE true examples of how their insanity (or inanity) works. 

the stuff about females giving up dreams and caring more about "romance" (which isn't really accurate - they care more about relationships for logical biological reasons, as has always been the case) isn't a fair way to even begin to determine 'sexism'.... that's not "sexism" so much as it is realism and common sense. the very fact that women are the ones who carry (for 9-~10 months) and birth children provides all the incentives needed for everything that has been mentioned about their "romance"-concerned behaviors.

the facts and common sense about the time frame in which women can have children makes it make sense that a character like Mei is concerned about getting married - it's reality that women get more concerned about such things as they age, and beauty fades (because men are as visual as they are).

none of the things people tend to be complaining about, regarding this manga, are mean that kishi is "sexist"... this includes comments made by certain characters. creative people will create characters that have differences between them in various ways.... the personalities of the characters obviously don't necessarily mean anything about the creator.

people tend to cherry pick details and facts about the females in the manga in order to launch their "sexism" attacks on the author. it's bullshit. 


*something to think about*:

*Spoiler*: __ 



in reality... 
many men tend to focus on goals/achievements, because accomplishing those things will generally draw women to them anyway. so, in order to acquire women more easily, men focus on things that bring them material "success". men realized this AGES ago, probably through natural selection. *This is a roundabout way of ACTUALLY being focused on... WOMEN.*

many Women tend to focus on relationships with men, because being a good one will usually allow her to accomplish the goals of security and family. by acquire a good/strong relationship with a good/strong man (who will either already be accomplished or show very positive signs that he will be) she will gain power, status, money, protection, etc - basically access to just about everything he has by extension. it's possible that women realized this before men had their aforementioned realization, because this is COMPLETELY aligned with biologically driven instincts (see ). *this is roundabout way of ACTUALLY being focused... but personal objectives/goals.*
if these are true (and they are)... which sex is really or ACTUALLY focused on the opposite sex?

and in the end... why does so-called "sexism" it matter, to the people who are so quick to claim it, SOOOO much?

sexism does exist... but it's usually not what people claim, and it's certainly NOT an issue with this manga. that's just people bitching.






Evil said:


> Germany has the same issue, are you really saying that Germany treats women the same as Japan? *Every developed nation is facing the same issue as Japan, it's doubtful it's simply because of the way Japan treats women*. Low birthrate has to do with birth control, abortion, and the desire of woman to have careers, that's it.
> 
> Men cannot substitute in for women when they don't want to have children, and that has nothing to do with some ridiculous theory of oppression, it's simply a matter of fact that women don't want to have kids and they have plenty of ways of opting out now.



correct. the reason so many nations, specifically well developed ones, are facing these lowering birth rates, is because of feminism and its effects. 

NOTE - in underdeveloped countries, the lies and bullshit so commonly tossed around by feminism DOES NOT take, because it's NOT WORKABLE in those environments. and the falling rates are a big ol' clue that it's not truly sustainable either. the ideology REQUIRES convenience. 

this is because the way the ideology completely abandons reason and common sense, makes it diametrically opposed to humanity, and prosperity.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 19, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Kishi is sexist, he certainly has moulds for women (most, if not all, are a romantic interest) and he coddles them (Tsunade, who can heal herself anyway, being the only exception). However, outside of Madara quips (and he represents the old ways), there hasn't been a single bad thing said about women in the series.* Kishi is sexist, but not in a demeaning way.
> *.



This. I cant explain myself very clearly bcs english is not my first language, but IMO thats the most acurate description


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## N120 (May 19, 2015)

Point 1:

Mei, Tsunade, Chiyo, temari, tenten, anko, kaguya, Kornan aren't weak, fangirls or looking for love interests.

Sandaime,iBiki, shikamarus dad, Lee, Naruto, fodder nin, jiraiya, are men who took/showed interest in the opposite gender.

Point 2:

Sakura was a fangirl from the beginning, marrying sasuke was her main goal in life. But she also became a half decent ninja along the way and contributed to konoha.

Same with ino, who became one of the most talented kunoichis in konoha and played a vital role during the the war. 

so where was the holding back?

Naruto dreamt of becoming hokage, next thing you know hes chasing after hinata and kissing her while flying in the skies during a full moon, no jutsu in this just red scarves and feels. 

Like i said, Sakura fans who don't like this version of Sakura call kishi sexist, not because he is but to deflect their own sexism.

Kishi reflected men and women collectively and individually very well.


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## Sunseeker (May 19, 2015)

I mostly agree with the above poster, with one critical addition

What an author writes or draws does not equal what an author believes. Unless the author specifically states they believe a gender should behave a certain way, they are simply creating fiction and the rules of their world. "Oh, Author wrote/drew this, so they believe in this" is not a valid statement in fiction. Only in non-fiction would it hold value. 

A more correct phrase would be that the world has some "sexist" attributes, but I don't even believe that has much merit. While certainly you can see classic moldings of gender roles, the very fact women risk their lives just like men fighting is a huge contrast and  point of equality even to the majority of countries ideas of gender's participation in warfare.


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## DSTREET45 (May 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I give Kishi a-lot of shit, but he's not sexist. Sexism is discrimination of certain sex based on gender roles. Kishi does not subscribe to this. He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru]. He clearly doesn't subscribe to the idea that women are inferior fighters to men, as he made the strongest entity in the verse female and numerous times has characters talk about how women are stronger than men in terms of will power or strength of character. The criticisms people have against Kishi equally apply to men and women. Sakura defining her intrinsic worth and being obsessed with a man, is equally display by the male character Obito and his obsession with Rin. A large number of female characters being irrelevant on the PII power-scale is equally seen in the male characters being irrelevant as well, basically all the rookies and largely the supporting cast in general were trolled male and female alike. In terms of being caricatures, almost all the characters in the series male and female alike are placed in streotypical manga roles, so again he's not discriminating against females, he's just using a Manga writing tactic, which is present in most manga and used to give characters identifiable "personal traits" to make them otherwise stand out when there isn't much story to tell for that character.
> 
> Bottom line is there is nothing sexist about Kishi's writing. People simply throw out that complaint as means of attacking him, for the fact that their fave characters got trolled.
> 
> ...




I agree with this.


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## ch1p (May 20, 2015)

Shadow050 said:


> is kishi really "molding" these women in these ways and showing his supposed sexism, or is it that given their world, and common sense commonalities it has with our own, women are PROVISIONED like they pretty much has ALWAYS BEEN at every point of human history?



That is sexism, whether you like it or not.



N120 said:


> drivel



Sakura is not a weakling, she's the strongest kuinochi in the Leaf. She surpassed Tsunade.

Sakura isn't chapter 3&4, Sakura is chapter 3 to 700. Her goal in life switched during the Chunin Exams to protect Naruto and Sasuke. This is symbolised by her cutting her hair (symbol of chasing Sasuke, since she kept it long for his sake) so she could protect her teammates.

Naruto isn't chapter 3&4, Naruto is chapter 1-700. His goal in life switched from wanting to be Hokage because he's an attention whore, to wanting to be Hokage for much nobler reasons, because others believed in him and becasue his parents sacrificed himself for him.

Sasuke isn't chapter 3&4, Sasuke is chapter 1-700.  His goal in life was to kill his brother and restore the honour of his clan. Do I need to make a summary of much Sasuke's goals changed back and forth throghout the manga? I'd rather not, because I don't have all day.


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## N120 (May 20, 2015)

ch1p said:


> That is sexism, whether you like it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You defeated your own argument.


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## Cjones (May 20, 2015)

Don't really think he's sexist, but a lot of people just aren't to keen on the fact that most of his females barely get any screen time in comparison to their counterparts and feel like they're treated worse. 

Tsunade is a decent enough example. While she isn't portrayed like most of the other females in this manga, and Kishi does actually (imo) do his best to make her his pinnacle kunoichi, he also shafts her so much that it's jarring. The details about her abilities often get glossed over (like Byakugo) with no in depth explanation. Compared to her Sannin counterparts, Oro and Jiraiya, had more than one opportunity and they're own fights to show off what they could do. On the other hand her only fights in this manga was toward the end of part 1 and part 2. The latter she had to share with 4 other people. 

Also think about the Gokage. Garra, Onoki and Raikage have had more battle screen time in this manga than either Mei or Tsunade. Mei was introduced the same time as the last two, but didn't get that much coverage and Tsunade has been in the manga much longer than those same two.

Same with Sakura. Main heroine but she only has one fight in the beginning of part 2.


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## ch1p (May 20, 2015)

Tsunade was supposed to fight Pain but the editors cut it off. In that, I don't blame Kishi for sexism, but for being too much agreeable with his superiors. It's interesting because the only panels of their confrontation show up as an important moment of the series at the official Naruto exhibition.


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## N120 (May 20, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Tsunade was supposed to fight Pain but the editors cut it off. In that, I don't blame Kishi for sexism, but for being too much agreeable with his superiors. It's interesting because the only panels of their confrontation show up as an important moment of the series at the official Naruto exhibition.



She did and she got outclassed, naruto had to save her. Pain upto that point in manga was the main villain, kishi set up the confrontation specially for naruto.

It makes little sense to hand over the fight to tsunade after jmans death, the prophecy, the invasion, akatsuki link, all of these link back to naruto.


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## ch1p (May 20, 2015)

There was supposed to be a fight, not that travesty you think its a fight.

I never said Naruto wasn't supposed to finish the fight. Just that Tsunade was supposed to fight and she did not.


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## N120 (May 20, 2015)

ch1p said:


> There was supposed to be a fight, not that travesty you think its a fight.
> 
> I never said Naruto wasn't supposed to finish the fight. Just that Tsunade was supposed to fight and she did not.



Right, So tsunade was set up for defeat anyway. There's nothing in her arsenal that was capable of defeating/harming pain, he single handedly took out the entire village and its fighting force. How was tsunade going to counter that threat? Jman tried and was outclassed and killed.

The best she could've done, she did. She confronted pain, which resulted in the yahiko blowing everything away, tsunade countered this by saving as many people as she could which pretty much drained her chakra to the point she lost her regeneration and went into a coma.

If you're expecting tsunade to pull off what jman, kakashi, and an entire army couldn't then that's being a bit unrealistic, and if kishi intended to go down that route then the editors did the right thing, if what you say is true.


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 22, 2015)

If the manga was set in an era where the culture says women only live for geting married and giving birth (like the dwarves of tolkien) then it would be OK. But its not like that. In Narutoverse women can do anything, yet their sole dreams are to get married and give birth.
Its not about how much panel time a girl has, its about how kishi thinks girls are. He can draw rheumatic elders with superpowers and ambition, but if its a girl then she only knows how to harass cute boys or how to cut her hair, or how to become younger. 
In this post there are a few panels that show pure sexism. It can be understood because of the japaese culture and the manga style, and it's not a very dense sexism, but noone can say its not sexism.


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## Zyrax (May 22, 2015)

Oi Vey you believe that Men and Women are different ?
what are you some kind of a sexist. Remember to be a good goy and vote for Hillary


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## Empathy (May 22, 2015)




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## Kurokocchi (May 22, 2015)

PinkPunkPossum said:


> If the manga was set in an era where the culture says women only live for geting married and giving birth (like the dwarves of tolkien) then it would be OK. But its not like that. In Narutoverse women can do anything, yet their sole dreams are to get married and give birth.



Yeah, that's true. Naruto gets to be the hokage, Shikamaru his advisor, Sasuke gets to go on secrete missions, etc.

I though Sakura would be a medical ninja like Tsunade, but all she's been shown was being a housewife.
I though Hinata would be head of her Hyuuga house, but all she's been shown was being a housewife.
Temari....housewife....
But hey, at least their married and have kids, right? Because that's what it means to be successful. 

Guess Tenten has her own shop, but even that's out of business lol XD

I almost don't want to even see Karin anymore. Don't ruin her any farther Kishi just leave me to my headcanons


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## Kurokocchi (May 22, 2015)

Hey nothing wrong with being a housewife, but please show some variety Kishi XD


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## ch1p (May 22, 2015)

N120 said:


> Right, So tsunade was set up for defeat anyway. There's nothing in her arsenal that was capable of defeating/harming pain, he single handedly took out the entire village and its fighting force. How was tsunade going to counter that threat? Jman tried and was outclassed and killed.
> 
> The best she could've done, she did. She confronted pain, which resulted in the yahiko blowing everything away, tsunade countered this by saving as many people as she could which pretty much drained her chakra to the point she lost her regeneration and went into a coma.
> 
> If you're expecting tsunade to pull off what jman, kakashi, and an entire army couldn't then that's being a bit unrealistic, and if kishi intended to go down that route then the editors did the right thing, if what you say is true.



It's not an expectation, it is reality. Tsunade would pull what Kakashi or Jman did, and she fought Madara in that fashion (which most likely, are the remains of that fight with Pain, twisted with a new paint job). Kakashi and Jman were also set up for defeat anyway. What's your point? You have no point.



Empathy said:


>



As I said.

Kishi is sexist, not in a demeaning way though.

That is clearly a 'men are expandable while women are special' trope.


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## Kurokocchi (May 22, 2015)

Yes, in Japan many women are expected to drop their careers once they have children in order to put all their attention on their kids as well as elder in-laws. However, there are also many women in Japan who also work while raising their children. There are women who are married but don't have kids yet, there are women who aren't married at all and still work. 

There are traditional families in Japan, just as there are in America as well. Japan is not so different from America, the core values are pretty much one in the same. That's why there is an increase in activists for women in Japan. People may see it as Japan becoming to "Americanized" or whatever, or they may see it as a necessary change. You can be understanding of it, while still being critical.

It's like what's even the point of having female ninjas if they're just gonna quit once they have kids. If it's for protection, then just teach them a few necessary skils and call it a day. XD What's the point of Chunnin, Jounin or whatever for the women? Good luck, Chou Chou and Sarada XD


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## Cjones (May 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> She did and she got outclassed, naruto had to save her. Pain upto that point in manga was the main villain, kishi set up the confrontation specially for naruto.
> 
> It makes little sense to hand over the fight to tsunade after jmans death, the prophecy, the invasion, akatsuki link, all of these link back to naruto.



Only thing Pain and Tsuande had was a talk.

From what little I recall of that volume release interview, Tsunade vs Pain was supposed to happen and Kishi had it planned out for Tsunade to have the 'honor' of being the first character to land a blow on Yahiko. 

But he was made to cut it for reasons.


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## Shadow050 (May 23, 2015)

ch1p said:


> That is sexism, whether you like it or not.



Not even that is actually "sexist". it's just "sexist" by the bullshit, dumb definition or practice that's come about over the last handful of years.

in these ways, we're ALL sexist... so much so that making that the standard is retarded.

don't confuse my post or tone for an attack on you or anything, because that's not the intention nor the case here.

i'm only trying to be clear about these notions which have become so popular in recent years thanks to... _certain groups_ running a-fucking-mok over this span of time. 

so much, if not most, of this bullshit is political and supported (if not initiated) by political fuckery. 

is there some sexism in the manga? OF COURSE... and it cuts both ways. there's SOME sexism shown by SOME characters and such. this however, DOES NOT make kishi himself sexist. 




Turrin said:


> I give Kishi a-lot of shit, but he's not sexist. Sexism is discrimination of certain sex based on gender roles. Kishi does not subscribe to this. He's put three women in positions of great power and leadership; Tsunade, Mei, and Konan [when she takes over as leader of Amegakuru]. He clearly doesn't subscribe to the idea that women are inferior fighters to men, as he made the strongest entity in the verse female and numerous times has characters talk about how women are stronger than men in terms of will power or strength of character. The criticisms people have against Kishi equally apply to men and women. Sakura defining her intrinsic worth and being obsessed with a man, is equally display by the male character Obito and his obsession with Rin. A large number of female characters being irrelevant on the PII power-scale is equally seen in the male characters being irrelevant as well, basically all the rookies and largely the supporting cast in general were trolled male and female alike. In terms of being caricatures, almost all the characters in the series male and female alike are placed in streotypical manga roles, so again he's not discriminating against females, he's just using a Manga writing tactic, which is present in most manga and used to give characters identifiable "personal traits" to make them otherwise stand out when there isn't much story to tell for that character.
> 
> Bottom line is there is nothing sexist about Kishi's writing. People simply throw out that complaint as means of attacking him, for the fact that their fave characters got trolled.
> 
> ...



well said post. *QFT*.


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## Kurokocchi (May 23, 2015)

The boy's dreams


*Spoiler*: _Gaara's dream_ 



  Family & BFFs with Naruto.





*Spoiler*: _Kiba's dream_ 



 Hokage!





*Spoiler*: _Shino's dream_ 



 Bugs! 





*Spoiler*: _Lee's dream_ 



 Defeat Naruto & Neji, Sakura fangirls! (Lee is not facing Sakura) 





*Spoiler*: _Chouji's dream_ 



 food & girl fangirling! (Chouji is not facing girl) 





*Spoiler*: _Shikamaru's dream_ 



 Families together & Temari (Shikamaru is not facing Temari)




Now for the girls


*Spoiler*: _Mei's dream_ 



 Marriage! (Mei is facing the guy) 





*Spoiler*: _Tsunade's dream_ 



 Dan alive & hokage, Jiraiya and bro alive (Tsunade is with & facing Dan until she yells at Jiraiya)





*Spoiler*: _Ino's dream_ 



 Sai and Sasuke fighting over her. (Ino is facing the boys) 





*Spoiler*: _Tenten's dream_ 



 Lee & Gai new style & Neji alive (TenTen is facing Lee & Gai) 





*Spoiler*: _Hinata's dream_ 



 Naruto & family (Hinata is leaning on Naruto)


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 23, 2015)

Shadow050 said:


> Not even that is actually "sexist". it's just "sexist" by the bullshit, dumb definition or practice that's come about over the last handful of years.
> 
> in these ways, we're ALL sexist... so much so that making that the standard is retarded.
> 
> ...



So you first admit he is sexist and then you say its not sexist because of opposite reasons.

That logic


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## Alkaid (May 23, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> The boy's dreams
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Gaara's dream_
> ...



Is this post satire?


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Is this post satire?



No, just what is seen on panel. What it means is up to interpretation. Perhaps Kishi is parodying his own work? XD


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## sakuranonamida (May 24, 2015)

You can be sexist even if it's involuntary, because of your upbringing, which seems to be the case with Kishi.
Also, I'll take someone like Mashima who puts boobs and panty shots of female characters in his chapters (though he does a fair bit of male fanservice too) but at least write them as any other characters and don't make their sex a reason to push them to the sidelines, over someone like Kishi who covers up his girls (since when was it not sexist, like Isis guys forcing women to cover themselves isn't sexist or misogynist now?) but time and time again prove he doesn't see them as anything but pairing fodder, weak willed creatures with no dreams of their own, outside of romantic love and marriage prospects. I'm not a fan of boobs in my face every single page, but I'll take it any day over seeing women like Kurenai, Sakura or Tsunade, or god forbid someone dare to criticize her, Hinata, being debased just because they happen to have a vagina. Sexism is a very real issue in Japan, and someone like Kishi should take responsibility for the fact that his manga, read by millions of young Japanese men, only confirm their beliefs that women are only good for marriage and procreation.


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## Seelentau (May 24, 2015)

>Putting fictional women into revealing clothes is sexism
>Putting fictional women into covering clothes is sexism

Ok.

Also: "but time and time again prove he doesn't see them as anything but pairing fodder, weak willed creatures with no dreams of their own, outside of romantic love and marriage prospects"

>There are women who married (because that is a thing), there are women who stayed single (because that is a thing). There are strong willed women (because those exist), there are weak willed women (because those exist).
>Three female Kage (highest village position in the Narutoverse)
>Strongest entity is female

Kishimoto is doing nothing wrong with how he portrays women. Not every woman can be a strong willed, don't need no man, overpowered kunoichi which lets her male friends pale in comparison. Weak women, those who crave for the attention of men, those who rather want to be a mother than a kunoichi, those who marry, those who stay single, all these kinds of women really exist and Kishimoto actually did a good job putting all these different kinds of women into one manga.

And then there's Mashima's Fairy Tail, were 9/10 women have breasts that would be too large for fights in real life.


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

> People judging a writer based on the assumed lack of political correctness in his fictional universe.

Also, Shadow, please...
stop using tumblr and twitter as a basis for everything.
issues and movements like sexism and feminism are more than just Anita Sarkeesian and her bandwagoners with Patreon and GoFundMe accounts.

Well, Turrin's post should've ended the thread pages ago. Both male and female characters in the manga lack substance. Naruto's obsession with Sasuke was just as bad as Sakura's. Chiyo is a better character than most male characters in the series.

Oh, and wanting to see your children at some point raise your grand-children is not sexist, it's nature and common sense. Though the line itself could've been worded better.


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 24, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> >Putting fictional women into covering clothes is sexism



Yeah man, i,m sooo tired of people complaining about how long are Tsunade's sleeves. Let her cover her impudent body!



Seelentau said:


> Also: "but time and time again prove he doesn't see them as anything but pairing fodder, weak willed creatures with no dreams of their own, outside of romantic love and marriage prospects"
> >There are women who married (because that is a thing), there are women who stayed single (because that is a thing). There are strong willed women (because those exist), there are weak willed women (because those exist).
> >Three female Kage (highest village position in the Narutoverse)
> >Strongest entity is female



Strongest entities are males. The only objective for women (as they are depicted in the manga) are to get married. Being a willed woman doesnt make it less worse



Seelentau said:


> Kishimoto is doing nothing wrong with how he portrays women. Not every woman can be a strong willed, don't need no man, overpowered kunoichi which lets her male friends pale in comparison. Weak women, those who crave for the attention of men, those who rather want to be a mother than a kunoichi, those who marry, those who stay single, all these kinds of women really exist and Kishimoto actually did a good job putting all these different kinds of women into one manga.



What about womens being clan heads, daydreaming about creating a better village system, focusing on being an elite ninja, or anything that doesnt include falling in love with a man and having kids like a rabbit

That whole portrait of women fits the manga style, they are characters made to serve the plot and the MC, but you cant deny its sexism, even in the slightest


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## Monna (May 24, 2015)

sakuranonamida said:


> You can be sexist even if it's involuntary, because of your upbringing, which seems to be the case with Kishi.
> Also, I'll take someone like Mashima who puts boobs and panty shots of female characters in his chapters (though he does a fair bit of male fanservice too) but at least write them as any other characters and don't make their sex a reason to push them to the sidelines, over someone like Kishi who covers up his girls (since when was it not sexist, like Isis guys forcing women to cover themselves isn't sexist or misogynist now?) but time and time again prove he doesn't see them as anything but pairing fodder, weak willed creatures with no dreams of their own, outside of romantic love and marriage prospects. I'm not a fan of boobs in my face every single page, but I'll take it any day over seeing women like Kurenai, Sakura or Tsunade, or god forbid someone dare to criticize her, Hinata, being debased just because they happen to have a vagina. Sexism is a very real issue in Japan, and someone like Kishi should take responsibility for the fact that his manga, read by millions of young Japanese men, only confirm their beliefs that women are only good for marriage and procreation.


I didn't finish reading your post, however I'd much rather read Naruto than perverse garbage such as Fairy Tail.


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## Raiden (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> No, just what is seen on panel. What it means is up to interpretation. Perhaps Kishi is parodying his own work? XD



Bang bang.


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## Seelentau (May 24, 2015)

PinkPunkPossum said:


> Yeah man, i,m sooo tired of people complaining about how long are Tsunade's sleeves. Let her cover her impudent body!



I was referring to "over someone like Kishi who covers up his girls (since when was it not sexist, like Isis guys forcing women to cover themselves isn't sexist or misogynist now?)".



PinkPunkPossum said:


> Strongest entities are males. The only objective for women (as they are depicted in the manga) are to get married. Being a willed woman doesnt make it less worse



Strongest entity is Kaguya, who is a female. And almost none of the women had the goal to be married. Also, marriage isn't bad.



PinkPunkPossum said:


> What about womens being clan heads, daydreaming about creating a better village system, focusing on being an elite ninja, or anything that doesnt include falling in love with a man and having kids like a rabbit
> 
> That whole portrait of women fits the manga style, they are characters made to serve the plot and the MC, but you cant deny its sexism, even in the slightest



I listed you women that had other goals than love and kids.
I deny the existence any kind of sexism in Naruto.


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## LazyWaka (May 24, 2015)

It's not really so much as kishi being sexist as it is just him straight up not giving a fuck about developing any of his characters aside from Naruto and Sasuke. It just comes off as more glaring for the females since most of the development they did get was based around the guys (and the few that didn't like Tenten just didn't get any panel time at all.)

Again I have to say that, despite liking her, the most infamous example is Hinata. She actually had a life goal and her crush on Naruto was almost secondary to that.

Kishi just ended up focusing on nothing but her crush on Naruto when she did get panel time causing a pretty blatant case of character regression. Proving to others (namely her father) that she can become strong? Completely hand waved.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Summers (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> The boy's dreams
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Gaara's dream_
> ...



For the most part connections with other people, friends or lovers are the priority. looks like a good thing to me.


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## PinkPunkPossum (May 24, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> I deny the existence any kind of sexism in Naruto.



Fan blindness  
If you cant belive it with manga panels then theres no point on arguing with you

PD: oh, and the "list" you mention, is still empty, like your arguments


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

ch1p said:


> It's not an expectation, it is reality. Tsunade would pull what Kakashi or Jman did, and she fought Madara in that fashion (which most likely, are the remains of that fight with Pain, twisted with a new paint job). Kakashi and Jman were also set up for defeat anyway. What's your point? You have no point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean how tsunade was left split in two? her encounter with pain was far more honourable than her meeting with madara which really emphasised the gap between her and madara. He wasn't even serious and was constantly shit talking and taking the piss with the kage and he f'd them all up off panel. 

And I do have point.

 j-man and kakashi already landed blows on pain. Jman captured one member and kakashi with the help of akimichi almost defeated a body themselves. They Both died (kakashi was revived later)

Tsunade wouldn't have topped that and certainly her not being dead by the end of her short encounter, showed her in a better light than kakashi and jman.

Like I said, you're sexist. You want tsunade to do something because she's a woman, and you play down kakashis/jmans death/efforts because they are men.

Kishi isn't sexist, you are. 

Jman,kakashi,the entire village of konoha, the summons and tsunade lost to pain. There was no discrimination in that result, everyone lost.

As for Kurnai, read the speech and situation. Gai and dai did similar things her father did when they went out against strong foes, they wanted to save the next gen and pass on the WoF.

"You are also a woman" he highlighted one of her qualities. It seems no one except you is allowed to mention the gender of characters because its sexist. The irony


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Summers said:


> For the most part connections with other people, friends or lovers are the priority. looks like a good thing to me.



Okay. Like I said up to interpretation XD

And everyone harps on Mashima, but this cover panel here tells me everything I need to know in terms of gender equality XD



There are male friendships/rivalries, female friendships/rivalries that don't get dropped, romances women are fighting right alongside the men, etc.

Kishi show's women who are great fighters, but ultimately their true dreams are to get married.



N120 said:


> "You are also a woman" he highlighted one of her qualities. It seems no one except you is allowed to mention the gender of characters because its sexist. The irony



"You are a woman, so stay in the house and make me some grand babies" XD Why can't her dad be proud she's a great ninja? XD

Speaking of women and their children, why are the fathers only shown spending time with their kids?? I thought it was the women's job to do that? XD They can't even have that XD


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## Seelentau (May 24, 2015)

PinkPunkPossum said:


> Fan blindness
> If you cant belive it with manga panels then theres no point on arguing with you
> 
> PD: oh, and the "list" you mention, is still empty, like your arguments



I'm not a Naruto fan. I don't like most of the story, nor do I like the missing depth of most characters, including women. However, that doesn't make Kishi a sexist. It just makes him a bad writer.

As for the list:
Sakura and Ino wanted to be with Sasuke and were crazy about it. Hinata wanted to be with Naruto, but in another way.

Literally every other female didn't think of marriage (or "having the boy"). Yes, of course, there was Mei, but that was a running gag.
Tsunade's main goal wasn't to be with Dan.
Kurenai's main goal wasn't to be with Asuma.
Karui's main goal wasn't to be with Choji.
Ino's main goal wasn't to be with Sai.
Kaguya's main goal wasn't to be with whoknowswho.
Shizune and Tenten didn't even get married as far as we know.
Temari was never depicted to be crazy about Shikamaru, their relationship developed throughout the manga.
Samui? What boy? A cool woman doesn't need a boy.
Rin? Developed feelings for Kakashi, something which is *normal*.

Did I miss anyone?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Okay. Like I said up to interpretation XD
> 
> And everyone harps on Mashima, but this cover panel here tells me everything I need to know in terms of gender equality XD
> 
> ...



So naruto and sasuke didn't value families, they just dreamt of violence and rivalries? 


Also I can't understand the hate for people who want to start their own family at some point? Really?



> "You are a woman, *so stay in the house and make me some grand babies" *XD Why can't her dad be proud she's a great ninja? XD
> 
> Speaking of women and their children, why are the fathers only shown spending time with their kids?? I thought it was the women's job to do that? XD They can't even have that XD



Not sure who you're quoting because That's not what he said. You're twisting his words and forcing an argument.

And Why should he be proud of her being a ninja? Maybe he doesn't like the job. what's important is that he cares for his daughter because she is his daughter, and looking out for her future.


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## LazyWaka (May 24, 2015)

> Tsunade's main goal wasn't to be with Dan


.

Did she even have one?



> Kurenai's main goal wasn't to be with Asuma.



Did she even have one?



> Karui's main goal wasn't to be with Choji.



Did she even have one?

This ones more excusable though since Karui was never relevant anyway.



> Ino's main goal wasn't to be with Sai.



Did she even have one?



> Kaguya's main goal wasn't to be with whoknowswho.



Considering how we know absolutely nothing about her or what she was ultimately trying to do, for all we know it could have been.

Also the ultimate moral of the fight against her being "don't be a bad mom" doesn't really help.



> Shizune and Tenten didn't even get married as far as we know.



These two never really got any focus at all. And it's implied that Tenten may have married Lee (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing.)



> Temari was never depicted to be crazy about Shikamaru, their relationship developed throughout the manga.



One of the few notable exceptions, but alas, she never really had a goal of her own.



> Samui? What boy? A cool woman doesn't need a boy.



What about her? She's just their. She's depicted as being cool but never does anything.

Now I'm not saying that this is all evidence of Kishi's sexism. This is more or less just further emphasis on his waste of characters.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> So naruto and sasuke didn't value families, they just dreamt of violence and rivalries?
> 
> 
> Also I can't understand the hate for people who want to start their own family at some point? Really?
> ...



Oh please, you can do both is my point. XD But Kishi doesn't show this for the women. None of the moms, Sakura, Hinata, Temari, etc. are shown to be doing anything outside of being at home. The guys can have families and also follow their dreams. XD

The father should have listened to his daughters wishes.


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Oh please, you can do both is my point. XD But Kishi doesn't show this for the women. None of the moms, Sakura, Hinata, Temari, etc. are shown to be doing anything outside of being at home. The guys can have families and also follow their dreams. XD
> 
> The father should have listened to his daughters wishes.



They did. 
why should women have to  do ninja work to be relevant to you? Raising a family takes a lot of work but it seems you don't value that kind of 'work'.

In other words, you're not really valuing women or families or effort, but rather the pay-packet and ego.

Everything we do in life is geared towards bettering ourselves, that includes work. We work to live, we don't live to work. Looking after the Family is their real job, in order to facilitate that they 'work' for a paycheck. It's a means to the end.

People who put family and work on the same platform And rival one another, need to reassess things. 

That's the problem with the sexist camp, they define people and their worth all the time and devalue everything else that's important.


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## Seelentau (May 24, 2015)

@LazyWaka: I'm not trying to prove what goals the girls had. PinkPunkPossum said all girls were dead-set on marriage/babies from the very beginning and I disproved that clearly. I mean, of course you can assume that each and every girl just wants to marry, but that only makes you a sexist. In the end, only Ino and Sakura were love-crazy and only Hinata was passively in love.

I still don't get how being in love and wanting to make children is sexism in the first place.
But then again, I'm a white straight cis male, what do I know, I'm oppression incarnate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> They did.
> why should women have to  do ninja work to be relevant to you? Raising a family takes a lot of work but it seems you don't value that kind of 'work'.
> 
> Everything we do in life is geared towards bettering ourselves, that includes work. We work to live, we don't live to work. Looking after the Family is their work, in order to facilitate that they 'work'.



Like I said before in this thread, nothing wrong with being a housewife


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Like I said before in this thread, nothing wrong with being a housewife



Well, if that's the case why use it as a way to call kishi sexist?

You can put a price on an honest day's work at an hourly rAte, but there's not enough money in the world that can really do justice (financially) to someone for building and maintaining a stable home for their family.

It's a shame women are made to feel like shit if they don't work.


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> None of the moms, Sakura, Hinata, Temari, etc. are shown to be doing anything outside of being at home.



...We've only seen all of them for less than a *page* in total in Gaiden. We don't know *what* they're doing.

Following your logic, Chouji and Sai are deadbeat husbands because all we've seen them do is eat and fuck around with their kids, and Kiba is unemployed because we didn't see him doing anything.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> Well, if that's the case why use it as a way to call kishi sexist?
> 
> You can put a price on an honest day's work at an hourly rAte, but there's not enough money in the world that can really do justice (financially) to someone for building and maintaining a stable home for their family.
> 
> It's a shame women are made to feel like shit if they don't work.



Where are the working moms? The stay at home dads? Can't Naruto make his own damn Bento? XD



Alkaid said:


> ...We've only seen all of them for less than a *page* in total in Gaiden. We don't know *what* they're doing.
> 
> Following your logic, Chouji and Sai are deadbeat husbands because all we've seen them do is eat and fuck around with their kids, and Kiba is unemployed because we didn't see him doing anything.



With that panel time, they are shown to be cooking, cleaning, and staying at home. What does that tell you?

Chouji & Sai are shown to be spending time with their kids, but what about Ino & Karui? XD
Chouji & Sai could very well be stay at home dads, but Ino & Karui aren't shown to be doing much either way, so I didn't include them. XD Blame Kishi not me.

Nothing wrong with being unemployed either, if you can take care of yourself.


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Where are the working moms? The stay at home dads? Can't Naruto make his own damn Bento? XD



No he can't, that's why she made it, but she couldn't deliver it to him so she sent boruto. Everyone is doing their bit. 

As for working moms, there's tsuande  and mei in chapter 700. Why can't they raise their own kids?


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> No he can't, that's why she made it, but she couldn't deliver it to him so she sent boruto. Everyone is doing their bit.
> 
> As for working moms, there's tsuande  and mei in chapter 700. Why can't they raise their own kids?



Apparently none of the guys can cook. XD And the only one who can made a business out of it (Ichiraku ramen) 

Tsunade and Mei don't got any kids ;D


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> With that panel time, they are shown to be cooking, cleaning, and staying at home. What does that tell you?
> 
> Chouji & Sai are shown to be spending time with their kids, but what about Ino & Karui? XD
> 
> Chouji & Sai could very well be stay at home dads



That type of logic isn't going to fly. You can't say that they are shown cooking, cleaning, and seen at home, then say that *must* be what they're doing all the time, then see the same scenario with the men and say that *might* be the case.

To me that sounds like you're pushing a narrative. By the way, the only one to have been shown to be cleaning was Sakura.


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## heartsutra (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> By the way, the only one to have been shown to be cooking and cleaning was Sakura.



Sakura? Cooking? When?

*cough* Kushina *cough*


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

heartsutra said:


> Sakura? Cooking? When?



You're right, my bad. For some odd reason I thought I remembered there was a panel of her cooking.


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

It's the panel where She was heavily pregnant. The best time to spend to be a kunoichi obv.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> That type of logic isn't going to fly. You can't say that they are shown cooking, cleaning, and seen at home, then say that *must* be what they're doing all the time, then see the same scenario with the men and say that *might* be the case.
> 
> To me that sounds like you're pushing a narrative. By the way, the only one to have been shown to be cleaning was Sakura.



Yes I can because that's the pattern Kishi has been following throughout his series. Mikoto stays at home and Fugaku works. Kushina stays at home and Minato works, ShikaInoChou dads works and moms stay at home. Naruto works and Hinata stays at home, Sasuke works(?) and Sakura stays at home, Shikamaru works and Temari stays at home.
Edit: Forgot Kurenai and Asuma, same pattern XD


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Yes I can because that's the pattern Kishi has been following throughout his series. Mikoto stays at home and Fugaku works. Kushina stays at home and Minato works, ShikaInoChou dads works and moms stay at home. Naruto works and Hinata stays at home, Sasuke works(?) and Sakura stays at home, Shikamaru works and Temari stays at home.
> Edit: Forgot Kurenai and Asuma, same pattern XD



Even if true, so what? What's so special about men working outside and what's so demeaning about women working at home?


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> Even if true, so what? What's so special about men working outside and what's so demeaning about women working at home?


[Facepalm] I'm done XD


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> [Facepalm] I'm done XD



cool.i guess You're tired of looking down on the characters.


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## CrazyAries (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> There's no sexism, kishi depicted each character with their own strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> People who reject the idea of a girl being portrayed in a certain way, are the covert sexists. Blaming kishi is just their way of deflecting the blame from themselves, ie rather than openly say they would have preferred a girl to act like this and that, they blame kishi for not portraying her to act like this and that. They are objectifying women and dictating the 'right way to act.



Yeah, I know you made this post a while back, but I have to call BS. This is a ?No U? defense, albeit in response to charges made against a third person. I have seen this made in discussions regarding racism. Since you hang out in the NF Caf?, I would ask if you have seen it. It?s a poor argument and it does nothing to actually refute your opponents? argument.

Are some people who accuse Kishimoto of being a sexist guilty of sexism themselves? Sure, but not because they?re calling out some mangaka. I honestly believe most people are sexist or have sexist tendencies, but they just exhibit them is various ways, many of which are relatively harmless.

I think the problem people have ─ when they are defending Kishimoto ─ is this perception that calling someone sexist = calling them a terrible human being. That?s a fallacy, especially when no one has called him a misogynist, which is far more severe. No one thinks Kishimoto is a terrible person, but some of us question if he has personal prejudices and whether or not he inserts them in his story.



ch1p said:


> Tsunade was supposed to fight Pain but the editors cut it off. In that, I don't blame Kishi for sexism, but for being too much agreeable with his superiors. It's interesting because the only panels of their confrontation show up as an important moment of the series at the official Naruto exhibition.



Actually, I think I remember seeing an interview with Kishimoto in which he mentions this. He said something to the effect that a punch from Tsunade would have been too strong for Deva Path?s body.

Now, I wouldn?t honestly expect Tsunade to take out Pain herself ─ and I don?t believe you were implying that she would, either ─ but honestly, it was time for Naruto to reappear. He trained on Myobakuzan for the express purpose of avenging Jiraiya. He was also the main character and he had been woefully neglected for much of Part 2. On the whole, I won?t exactly attribute Tsunade?s lack of a fight in that moment to sexism, but due to a combination of factors, including the ones I mentioned above.


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

This is what I think.
Kishi cares more about popularity than he does about how their characters are treated.
Kishi probably realised about the masses of fans that like to pair up female characters, and since he's not really imaginative in giving his characters interesting paths to follow, he could at least give female characters progression through romance fanservice.

Tenten is the only female that actually Had a goal that's not linked to romance...but since she's unpopular, of course Kishi wasn't gonna bother explore her  

Sakura actually developed to become a professional Medic (which wasn't her goal), but the popularity of SasuSaku is probably the reason why Sakura is shown more still obsessing over Sasuke.

They're probably shown as Housewives to make a clear indication to the reader that "they are [insert Name]'s Wife". He probably thinks that by not pairing up the certain female characters would make them unpopular (and thus lose potential readership of pairing fans). 
The female characters that aren't paired up were probably already unpopular enough to not get paired anyway(the exception would be Karui who was used as a tool to complete the new ino-shika-cho).

I don't Completely think that  Kishi's Sexist, I just think that he didn't know what to do with most of the females other than to invoke pairing drama amongst the fandom or show them in a stable marriage.

More than Anything, I just think that Kishi's a really Shitty Writer that cares more about popularity than quality. imo.


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## Sonii (May 24, 2015)

damn, it kinda makes me wanna cry on how amazing narutoverse could of become 

so much potential wasted.

well, at least we still have uchiha's and kishi never forgets about them


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Yes I can because that's the pattern Kishi has been following throughout his series. Mikoto stays at home and Fugaku works.



Who's to say she was a shinobi at all?



Kurokocchi said:


> Kushina stays at home and Minato works,



The only time we saw Kushina in the manga alive, she was heavily pregnant and cooking. Though it's not canon, she was shown to still be going on missions even after Menma was born.




Kurokocchi said:


> ShikaInoChou dads works and moms stay at home.



Do we even see these supposed mothers for more than a page total in the manga?



Kurokocchi said:


> Naruto works and Hinata stays at home



We haven't even seen her at home, so we have no idea what she's doing.



Kurokocchi said:


> Sasuke works(?) and Sakura stays at home,



Sakura has to have some form of income, and the two have not been in contact at all so I doubt Sasuke is sending her money. She must have some type of work.



Kurokocchi said:


> Shikamaru works and Temari stays at home.



Where was Temari shown staying home? She was only shown in Gaiden with Shikamaru and her son while Gaara and Kankuro were visiting. 



Kurokocchi said:


> Edit: Forgot Kurenai and Asuma, same pattern XD



Kurenai was still working as shinobi while seeing Asuma. She only stopped when she found out she was pregnant and had to raise a child by herself. 

All of your examples seem to ride on one panel and a lot of assumptions on your part. You sure you aren't looking for some sexist boogieman?


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

CrazyAries said:


> Yeah, I know you made this post a while back, but I have to call BS. This is a “No U” defense, albeit in response to charges made against a third person. I have seen this made in discussions regarding racism. Since you hang out in the NF Caf?, I would ask if you have seen it. It’s a poor argument and it does nothing to actually refute your opponents’ argument.
> 
> Are some people who accuse Kishimoto of being a sexist guilty of sexism themselves? Sure, but not because they’re calling out some mangaka. I honestly believe most people are sexist or have sexist tendencies, but they just exhibit them is various ways, many of which are relatively harmless.
> 
> I think the problem people have ─ when they are defending Kishimoto ─ is this perception that calling someone sexist = calling them a terrible human being. That’s a fallacy, especially when no one has called him a misogynist, which is far more severe. No one thinks Kishimoto is a terrible person, but some of us *question if he has personal prejudices and whether or not he inserts them in his story.*



I have no issues with people wishing their favourite characters had done something else other than what they ended up doing.

While that may be disappointing for many, that doesn't mean there was a politically motivated prejudice involved. There really is no evidence of that happening in the manga.

The issue with racism/sexism or other prejudices is that there are evidences both historical and current for us to explore and debate in the cafe. Here, we have one mans work and we are trying to assess his views through this work, which in my view isn't carried out fairly and often times it seems the posters only bought up the issue of sexism due to their fav character not being as "badass" as they would've liked and in the process exposed certain prejudices they hold but don't consider fall under the same bracket they accuse other views of falling under.



> Actually, I think I remember seeing an interview with Kishimoto in which he mentions this. He said something to the effect that a punch from Tsunade would have been too strong for Deva Path’s body.
> 
> Now, I wouldn’t honestly expect Tsunade to take out Pain herself ─ and I don’t believe you were implying that she would, either ─ but honestly, it was time for Naruto to reappear. He trained on Myobakuzan for the express purpose of avenging Jiraiya. He was also the main character and he had been woefully neglected for much of Part 2. On the whole, I won’t exactly attribute Tsunade’s lack of a fight in that moment to sexism, but due to a combination of factors, including the ones I mentioned above.



Both jman and kakashis groups incapacitated members of pain, could tsuande have done the same? Not against deva as he had a perfect counter to her ability, but it was possible to inflict severe damage to the other paths.

The problem however is that pain had the ability to revive each path. Yahiko was also just a puppet that could be revived.

To defeat pain you had to take out the 6 paths in certain order and use certain tactics to nullify their collective and individual abilities. Tsuande didn't have the ability or the Intel to see that task through.

however, she was hit by yahiko strongest attack and not only withstood it but saved the entire village. That's a feat not even jman or kakashi are capable of.

Like I said, sometimes the issue isn't what didn't happen but how we interpret things. Some people don't value tsuandes effort because it wasn't flashy and there weren't any shit talk between them, but really she did better than the two shinobi that did pull out fancy jutsu and banter, and lived, they didn't.

Could kakashi and jman replicate her achievements vs pain? I don't think so.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Who's to say she was a shinobi at all?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually Ino and Chouji's mom weren't even shown in the manga just their dads, so you're right about that. XD The rest is what Kishi chooses to show on panel.


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

If that's the case, it's not even about what he shows on panel, but how much he does. He shows 1-2 panels of a character and you decide that's what they're doing all the time? 

And if that's the logic you're using, I can say a lot of shit about the majority of the male characters in this series.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> If that's the case, it's not even about what he shows on panel, but how much he does. He shows 1-2 panels of a character and you decide that's what they're doing all the time?
> 
> And if that's the logic you're using, I can say a lot of shit about the majority of the male characters in this series.



What? It's not about the number of panels.  Kishi chooses to showcase his characters this way. XD With a limited number of panels he's not gonna waste it showing things the characters don't do often. Why couldn't he have shown Sakura reading a medical book or something?? Why couldn't he have shown Hinata doing something?? When Boruto thought of his mom, it showed a panel of her making the bento XD They are hardly ever shown, and when they are shown, they're doing stuff like that.

Edit: I'm just gonna agree to disagree with ya


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> What? It's not about the number of panels.  Kishi chooses to showcase his characters this way. XD With a limited number of panels he's not gonna waste it showing things the characters don't do often. Why couldn't he have shown Sakura reading a medical book or something?? Why couldn't he have shown Hinata doing something?? When Boruto thought of his mom, it showed a panel of her making the bento XD They are hardly ever shown, and when they are shown, they're doing stuff like that.
> 
> Edit: I'm just gonna agree to disagree with ya



Kishi wanted to draw Naruto as a father, maybe he decided he wanted to draw *all* the characters as parents considering we've seen just about every old character with their children.

Also, Hinata wasn't shown making the bento. It was just a picture of her. You're seeings things that aren't even there.

These little emoticons and false observations are starting to make me think you're some subpar troll.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kishi has shown them as both kunoichis and housewives, why would either roles be sexist and not the other?


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## Lucaniel (May 24, 2015)

why didn't this thread just end at someone saying "he's pretty sexist"


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## CrazyAries (May 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> I have no issues with people wishing their favourite characters had done something else other than what they ended up doing.
> 
> While that may be disappointing for many, that doesn't mean there was a politically motivated prejudice involved. There really is no evidence of that happening in the manga.
> 
> The issue with racism/sexism or other prejudices is that there are evidences both historical and current for us to explore and debate in the cafe. Here, we have one mans work and we are trying to assess his views through this work, which in my view isn't carried out fairly and often times it seems the posters only bought up the issue of sexism due to their fav character not being as "badass" as they would've liked.



What I got from your initial post was that you were ASSUMING that all complaints about the way Kishimoto treats particular females were based around them being female. That isn?t the case. There are plenty of fans and non-fans of characters ─ regardless of gender ─ who complain about their characters being marginalized in some way. Much of that is based on unrealized potential.

Take Sakura, for example. I know you don?t particularly like her, but it sucks that Kishimoto called her a heroine but did nothing really to justify that distinction. Of course, we all would expect Naruto and Sasuke to be more relevant and much stronger than her, but the way she was pushed aside was disgusting. At times it looks like Kishimoto goes out of his way to torment the character. I also have reservations on how her treatment with Ino was handled. Are those complaints based on gender, or even fan bias? I don?t believe so, because for one thing, I?m not even a Sakura fan.

In Hinata?s case, her purpose was narrowed down to her affection for Naruto. Is that strictly a complaint based on gender? No, not when you consider the potential attention the Hyuuga could have received overall.

There were so many characters in this manga who had interesting introductions. While Kishimoto could not develop all, too many were neglected. Some of us do question whether sexism played a part, but most of us concede that would not be the biggest problem in regards to character development.

Also, I might add that a section of readers are worse than Kishimoto has even been, but I?m not talking about those accusing Kishimoto of sexism. I have seen comments from those ?defending? him, and a few have said things that are far more offensive than anything in Naruto. At times, it is clear that it isn?t even about Kishimoto, but more about their personal issues.

For some reason, this thread has been much more civilized than most threads of this nature in the past.



> Both jman and kakashis groups incapacitated members of pain, could tsuande have done the same? Not against deva as he had a perfect counter to her ability, but it was possible to inflict severe damage to the other paths.
> 
> The problem however is that pain had the ability to revive each path. Yahiko was also just a puppet that could be revived.
> 
> ...



Why are you arguing with me about this? I was replying to Ch1p and I already stated it would have been futile for Tsunade to face Pain.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Kishi wanted to draw Naruto as a father, maybe he decided he wanted to draw *all* the characters as parents considering we've seen just about every old character with their children.
> 
> Also, Hinata wasn't shown making the bento. It was just a picture of her. You're seeings things that aren't even there.
> 
> These little emoticons and false observations are starting to make me think you're some subpar troll.



Mentioning bento....flashback....Hinata looking down...why would she be looking down...perhaps...she's making something? Reading comprehension dude 

You're choosing to play dumb instead of facing the truth, that's fine.


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Mentioning bento....flashback....Hinata looking down...why would she be looking down...perhaps...she's making something? Reading comprehension dude
> 
> You're choosing to play dumb instead of facing the truth, that's fine.



If it's a flashback of her making the bento, that means Bolt would have had to have seen her making it, but that's not the case. He only delivered it. 

Also, I have no idea why you think she is looking down. I don't see an apron either, so


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

CrazyAries said:


> What I got from your initial post was that you were ASSUMING that all complaints about the way Kishimoto treats particular females were based around them being female. That isn’t the case. There are plenty of fans and non-fans of characters ─ regardless of gender ─ who complain about their characters being marginalized in some way. Much of that is based on unrealized potential.
> 
> Take Sakura, for example. I know you don’t particularly like her, but it sucks that Kishimoto called her a heroine but did nothing really to justify that distinction. Of course, we all would expect Naruto and Sasuke to be more relevant and much stronger than her, but the way she was pushed aside was disgusting. At times it looks like Kishimoto goes out of his way to torment the character. I also have reservations on how her treatment with Ino was handled. Are those complaints based on gender, or even fan bias? I don’t believe so, because for one thing, I’m not even a Sakura fan.
> 
> ...



Sorry about that, I forgot to remove the post aimed at ch1p.

In anycase, I agree with you. I don't like Sakura because of her personality but the lack of development and slow growth of her character did seem a little harsh. 

But, that could be down to time restraints or editors wanting kishi to flesh out other details of the plot dues to fan demand which tied kishis hand. 

I assume it's not the easiest task trying to stay true to a character and manage the expectations imposed on them By certain fanbases, especially when their role isn't that relevant to the main plot.

Hinata is an odd one, she loves naruto but not for the superficial reasons we see in many other mangas. She admired naruto for his attitude and nindo, she saw him as a role model to improve herself as a person and kunoichi and eventually that admiration turned to something more. its hard to take a negative view of that.

In her case she used the influence to rise from a soft hearted, clan failure to becoming a strong willed, confident and capable shinobi.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> If it's a flashback of her making the bento, that means Bolt would have had to have seen her making it, but that's not the case. He only delivered it.
> 
> Also, I have no idea why you think she is looking down. I don't see an apron either, so



XD

Good thing cause it looks awful



At least in Alternate Universes:


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Nice rebuttal. 

Oh, wait


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Nice rebuttal.
> 
> Oh, wait



Rebuttal to what? XD
Boruto said he was gonna return home & tell mom, so she was obviously there. She sent him to deliver the food.


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> She sent him to deliver the food.



Exactly. How can you have a flashback of something that you didn't see?



Kurokocchi said:


> Rebuttal to what? XD



You argued Hinata was only shown only a capacity that involves cooking or cleaning by using that flashback Bolt had of her. I said that was false and you told me I was full of shit and I asked where the apron was and questioned whether she was looking down at all. 

Don't swerve, pal. You're seeing shit that isn't there


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## Alucardemi (May 24, 2015)

What is it about some of you who think that being a housewife is dehumanizing?

Most women find starting a family and taking care of that family more interesting than working all day. They have, on average, different paths to happiness from men. There's nothing wrong with the majority of the women in this manga choosing to raise their families over over-working themselves, lol.

None of that is demeaning in any way.


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## Kurokocchi (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Exactly. How can you have a flashback of something that you didn't see?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What? How do you know he didn't see her? Are you saying Hinata went out to find Boruto to give him the meal to give to his dad?? XD Why couldn't she have just given him the meal if she was already out then?




Is she reading?? Maybe it's hard to tell from her lack of pupils? XD But you have a point, it could be anything I guess 

Edit: Also Hinata wasn't just shown cooking, she was also shown in 700 with himawhatever at Neji's grave
Look at the picture where Salad is drawn side-by-side with Karin
Which was obviously shown in remembrance to Neji.

Edit 2: Unless you think it's just a vision of Hinata or something. That could be another explanation, I'll give you that. XD


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> *Tenten is the only female that actually Had a goal that's not linked to romance*...but since she's unpopular, of course Kishi wasn't gonna bother explore her



Nope. **


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Nope. **



Who else ? I can't think of any others


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

Chiyo. **


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

While we're talking about how all the females apparently had goals only linked to men, how many dreams of male characters were taken seriously? 

- Kiba wanted to be Hokage, but Kishi has made fun of him on account of that.
- Chouji wanted to...eat?
- Lee wants to win the affection of Sakura
- Shino's is okay


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> While we're talking about how all the females apparently had goals only linked to men, how many dreams of male characters were taken seriously?
> 
> - Kiba wanted to be Hokage, but Kishi has made fun of him on account of that.
> - Chouji wanted to...eat?
> ...



Shino wants to discover new species of insects. Preferable large ones.


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Chiyo. **



Was her goal related to peace (or something like that) ? Can't remember.


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

She didn't have a pronounced, straight forward goal iirc, which is a good thing – most of the time, depends on the kind of character writing and story. Obviously being on the good side of the cast meant she wanted peace (after recognizing her own past mistakes) but it was never an obsession or something that stood really, really out about her character.


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

Kishi didn't glamourise the ninja profession. From the get go the concept being pushed was about promoting understanding and peace not war and jutsus.


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> While we're talking about how all the females apparently had goals only linked to men, how many dreams of male characters were taken seriously?
> 
> - Kiba wanted to be Hokage, but Kishi has made fun of him on account of that.
> - Chouji wanted to...eat?
> ...



The point is that most of the males had a variation of goals/careers they wanted to pursue.

For Most of the females it was mostly just romance (for the sake of appeasing shipping fans).

PS: Lee's goal was to be the best Martial Artist (sakura affection's is a secondary dream of his)
        Choji's one was simple, to have the strength to protect his friends (before IT dream, where he wanted a women that loved him for food)
        Shino wanted to discover new bug species.
        Kiba wanted to become Hokage to PARTY 24/7 

Kishi never bothered with them because of popularity (like I said before about Tenten), 
He's just a really wack writer


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> She didn't have a pronounced, straight forward goal iirc, which is a good thing ? most of the time, depends on the kind of character writing and story. Obviously being on the good side of the cast meant she wanted peace (after recognizing her own past mistakes) but it was never an obsession or something that stood really, really out about her character.



Oh,so she doesn't have a clear goal.......Well that was pointless, thanks


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

What's wrong with characters being human beings instead of obsessing over a certain goal?

Chiyo isn't the only female character who doesn't obsess over a romantic relationship. Tsunade is another example, Temari too.

Again, male characters were getting shafted just as much as female ones.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> What's wrong with characters being human beings instead of obsessing over a certain goal?



Well, when you put them next to a character with a ridiculous determinator stat like Naruto, I suppose readers expect the same thing from the other characters surrounding him.


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Well, when you put them next to a character with a ridiculous determinator stat like Naruto, I suppose readers expect the same thing from the other characters surrounding him.



So people want female characters to obsess over other things, not romantic related? Sounds just as bad to me. But you do have a point about main characters sharing this trait, although I wouldn't say obsessing over Sasuke is the only thing Naruto did. As a main character, he got plenty of panel time devoted to other stuff. Side characters however don't enjoy that luxury.


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> The point is that most of the males had a variation of goals/careers they wanted to pursue.
> 
> For Most of the females it was mostly just romance (for the sake of appeasing shipping fans).
> 
> ...



How many of those dreams were taken seriously, though? We have no panels of them pursuing said dream. They might as well not exist at all. 

If the females had similar goals, but also were shown never working towards them and also never reached them; would they rise several tiers in your view?


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> What's wrong with characters being human beings instead of obsessing over a certain goal?
> 
> Chiyo isn't the only female character who doesn't obsess over a romantic relationship. Tsunade is another example, Temari too.
> 
> Again, male characters were getting shafted just as much as female ones.



Which is why I didn't mention them in my post. *Because they have no goals* in comparison to males.

Tenten was the only female with a non-romance related goal....but got shafted due to popularity.

Chiyo is an Old Lady (that makes her unpopular by default) but she's already had a romantic relationship in the past, the only thing she could do was to pass on to let young generation flourish.

Tsunade is also quite unpopular so she also gets shafted.

ShikaTema is hugely popular, so obviously Temari was gonna get pushed into it in the end to please the shipping fans.


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> How many of those dreams were taken seriously, though? We have no panels of them pursuing said dream. They might as well not exist at all.
> 
> *If the females had similar goals, but also were shown never working towards them and also never reached them; would they rise several tiers in your view?*



@Bold....Is basically what happened to Tenten.
It wouldn't make me feel more invested in their character, It just further shows that Kishi is a bad writer.


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## Platypus (May 24, 2015)

They do have goals, just not as obsessive.

Why do you keep insisting Tenten's the only one with a non-romance related main goal?

Chiyo once had a romantic relationship, so what? It was in no way relevant to her character.
Making things better (reviving Gaara, help defeat Sasori) for the younger generation doesn't count as a goal?

How was Temari getting *pushed* into a pairing as if it damaged her character?
How was Tsunade shafted?

Again, these two don't have a romance-related main goal/obsession that defines their character for the most part.
Do they have romantic goals? Sure they do, most characters do. Is it the main character trait that defines most of their actions/words/etc.? No.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## N120 (May 24, 2015)

It's pretty much flip flopping to cover the holes in the arguments.


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## Ball Breaker (May 24, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> .Is basically what happened to Tenten.



What's this Tenten you speak of


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Platypus said:


> They do have goals, just not as obsessive.
> 
> Why do you keep insisting Tenten's the only one with a non-romance related goal?
> 
> ...



Tenten is only one that openly expressed their aspiration to the reader.

How am I meant to know what Chiyo, Tsunade and Temari's goals are if they don't express to the reader ?

If Tsunade was in a very popular pairing from the fandom e.g. lets say Tsunade x Ay
I would guarantee that Kishi would've made them a couple in the ending.
But, Tsunade isn't very popular (arguable less popular than Tenten), and since Kishi isn't imaginative in what path he wants his side characters to follow, Tsunade ended getting shafted to let the more popular character (Kakashi) become hokage.

Yes, Chiyo doesn't have any romantic ties anymore + she's old + unpopular in pairings (obviously), so it's best to make her a sacrifice for a major character (I'm trying to think using Kishi's mindset ).

Yes, Temari had no goals but she was bound to get paired up with shikamaru because the shipping fandom demanded it. Even though shikamaru stated he wasn't interested in getting married, it became inevitable, because shipping shit right  (I never mentioned anything about ShikaTema ruining Temari...It might have....who knows.)

When it comes to females, Kishi made the popular ones involved in more pairing fanservice, the unpopular ones were either just there in the background (waiting to be sacrificed if not completely neglected like Tenten, Anko, Samui etc)


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## Alucardemi (May 24, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> How am I meant to know what Chiyo, Tsunade and Temari's goals are if they don't express to the reader ?



I don't know what you're talking about. They all seem to have goals expressed in the manga.

Chiyo's goals , for instance, were multifaceted.

First, she yearned to create a jutsu that could give life to puppets, so as to ease the pain of her grandson when she saw him playing with the puppets he created. Then, her initial goal lost and Sasori gone, her goal was to see her grandson's face before dying, and she did, in the end. Further, her last goal was to save Gaara.

All expressed in the manga, making Chiyo arguably one of the more interesting characters given how much she actually had going on in her head through time.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alkaid (May 24, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> I don't know what you're talking about. They all seem to have goals expressed in the manga.
> 
> Chiyo's goals , for instance, were multifaceted.
> 
> ...



Most readers ask for subtle, "deep" things but will ignore anything that isn't thrown in their faces. They've got to *yell* their goals out for anyone to believe they have any. Can't be bothered to look at their actions and see if they connect or anything.


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## Punished Kiba (May 24, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> I don't know what you're talking about. They all seem to have goals expressed in the manga.
> 
> Chiyo's goals , for instance, were multifaceted.
> 
> ...



The Jutsu she created for Sasori is something that was already she accomplished through backstory.

It's just like saying how Tsunade accomplished became a Leading Medic Ninja through flashback/backstory. It's not something she wanted pursued through the course of the story set.

I may actually agree that seeing her grandson before before he died may have been a goal Chiyo wanted at her old age (but I don't think she stressed this in the story)........ but sacrificing her Life for Gaara isn't a goal, it was a selfless act of bravery as she felt the time was right to entrust to the young.


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## half0pain (May 24, 2015)

Kurokocchi said:


> Oh please, you can do both is my point. XD But Kishi doesn't show this for the women. None of the moms, Sakura, Hinata, Temari, etc. are shown to be doing anything outside of being at home. The guys can have families and also follow their dreams. XD
> 
> The father should have listened to his daughters wishes.



The father should have listened to his daughter's wishes... which were what exactly? The younger generation cannot die while the older generation is around. The man was going to die and he spoke to his daughter. Likely his only progeny. If nothing else live long enough to have a child to pass on the will of fire to.

The point of that flashback was of the adults making way for the children to live. Iruka's mum protected him. Kurenai called bullshit on the younger generation not risking their lives when their village was in danger.

Tsume (Kiba and Hana's mom) continued to be an active Jonin.
Shizune continued to be administrative help in the Hokage's office.

Women may or may not have romantic interests in the manga.



Kurokocchi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*The Boy's Dreams*

Gaara: living family members that are happy to be together, BFF with Naruto
Kiba: Became Hokage and wanting to pass an edict for a dog day
Shino: discovering a new species
Lee: defeating his rivals and having Sakura fangirl over him
Chouji: eating lots and having a girl who will accept him for it; having his dad acknowledge his "achievement"
Shikamaru: living parent and sensei; seeing them be happy together while he observes and considers marrying Temari

*The Girl's Dreams*

Mei: get married and have the Kage's see it
Tsunade: Living teammates, united, living Dan, living family.
Ino: having two guys she likes fanboying over her; living father
Tenten: making her teammates cooler, living teammate
Hinata: Living cousin, Hanabi part of her life, dating Naruto

Note that Kiba and Shino have no people in their dream world. The remaining people want acknowledgment or for the deceased to have never passed away. Whatever personality these characters have is presented in their dreams. It's in line with what has previously been presented regarding their wants.

The people who have shown romantic interest in others have those as part of their dream. Those who haven't don't. The characters don't show a single thing that they want but a few. What is primary and secondary is beside the point.

Of the dream I would take issue with is Mei's. Not because she desire marriage. But because she also dreamed of recreating Kiri's image to the world.

You really just wrote the dreams in a way that fits your views.


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## Kurokocchi (May 25, 2015)

half0pain said:


> *The Boy's Dreams*
> 
> Gaara: living family members that are happy to be together, BFF with Naruto
> Kiba: Became Hokage and wanting to pass an edict for a dog day
> ...



K
Exactly what I wrote in fewer words XD



half0pain said:


> Tsume (Kiba and Hana's mom) continued to be an active Jonin.



OMG A working mom, way to go Kishi!  I almost forgot who she was lol XD

Edit: "According to Kiba, she was responsible for scaring away his father." -from Naruto wiki. 
Wait, what?


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## Revolution (May 29, 2015)

Here you go


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## Sanrio88 (May 29, 2015)

Kishi's sexism has obvious as fuq to me ever since the Haku and Zabuza arc lol

ALOT of the hate that Sakura gets is partially cause she couldn't do anything throughout part 1. Part 2 started with a BANG and promise but ultimately the character didn't meet the level of hype and expectation me and few others thought she'd get.


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## KaiserBunny (May 30, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> ^The man writes women as women, not as a normal person. Sakura is the heroine of the series and personifies sexist ideas about them- weak willed, emotionally unstable, cannot handle situations as adequately as male counterparts because of the tendency towards uncontrollabe overemotion, love and romance is a primary point in their lives, they are forever waiting for that one boy they've attached themselves to as children for whatever reason and will endure any and all degradation and years of pining with nothing in return, women who stop pursuing someone they had romantic feelings for and got with someone else would make them a terrible woman, desperately insecure and searching for male validation, having to help out on the sidelines while the boys handle the real problems, she even has to give up on trying to do anything because she will always be too weak, and when faced with people not liking Sakura's character he thinks that she will be more well received if he draws her prettier.
> 
> Although, I agree that Kishi isn't a raging sexist, in fact, I don't even think he realizes his treatment of most of his female characters. As you said, he doesn't really use them for fanservice or what have you. Its just that oftentimes he struggles with his female characters because instead of just thinking of them as characters, he thinks of them as female and thus some complete alien species from their male counterparts.
> 
> ...



This post, though I would argue that Kurenai's retiring from full time ninja was probably more out of necessity (we don't see her or Asuma as having any friends/family to rely on besides the teenage Shikamaru and with Asuma dead, there's a need to take care of the baby).  We also never got any mention that she had retired from shinobi life, so I would just assume she probably part timed for a while when her kid was an infant.

I'm worried about Sarada.  She has stupid, for no reason tributes to Sakura (that Shannaro made me want to cry, not tears of joy) and her story is set up to revolve around a male figure for whom she has a lot of affection (Kishimoto's easy out for not giving his fem characters any real character arc).  With that said, I really like her and hope my concerns are unfounded.

I also would argue against Hinata being without a good arc, but mostly because the speech she gave Naruto told him to follow _her_ ninja way, not telling him to remember his own.

EDIT: Chiyo was probably the single coolest fem character Kishi made, but he fucked her up by having her act like a petulant child around Hanzo the Salamander in the War Arc.  

He fucked a lot of things up in the War Arc.


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## Suit (May 30, 2015)

On a scale of Kubo to Oda, he's about a 4


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## COREYxYEROC (May 30, 2015)

he could have made sakura  a better character...
but you have to remember what type of manga this is. its made for boys


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## Seelentau (May 31, 2015)

I really don't like that as an universal excuse. One Piece is a manga for boys as well, but despite all the big tits, the females are written well (given a backstory, their own fights, strength etc).
Kishimoto is simply a bad writer, which results in bad characters and appears as sexism to some.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Last Dinosaur (May 31, 2015)

He IS sexist and probably more than Oda and Kubo but like other people on this thread said, he is not OFFENSIVELY sexist and certainly not malicious, just extremely ignorant. Sexist but not misogynic.


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## Resistance (May 31, 2015)

Lol @ filhy Western Marxist being rac ist as hell and calling a Japanese guy sexist because he doesn't draw and write females to their Cultural Marxism specifications.

Get the fuc k outta here, Marxists scum.

Japan is a pristine Country, untouched by your filthy, disgusting ideology that has rendered the West impotent, barren and weak.

You think your ideology makes you superior to this man, Western Marxist filth?

Rac ist scum.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ensoriki (May 31, 2015)

Against my better judgement I opened this thread.
Now i have cancer.


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## N120 (May 31, 2015)

ensoriki said:


> Against my better judgement I opened this thread.
> Now i have cancer.



You're like a chain smoker who knows its bad for you, but you can't quit.


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## COREYxYEROC (May 31, 2015)

AzureGaru said:


> He IS sexist and probably more than Oda and Kubo but like other people on this thread said, he is not OFFENSIVELY sexist and certainly not malicious, just extremely ignorant. Sexist but not misogynic.



dont bring kubo into this... he does females well xD


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## Alkaid (May 31, 2015)

ensoriki said:


> Against my better judgement I opened this thread.
> Now i have cancer.



Better get off the internet before you get nuclear radiation.


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## Revolution (Jun 27, 2015)

"How sexist is *Japan*, really?" is a better question

Reactions: Informative 1


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## N120 (Jun 27, 2015)

^ that's not particularly fair, it's a loaded term that's often misapplied. 

Issues surrounding maternity and careers for women of child bearing age aren't unique in Japan, but everywhere in the modern world. The attitudes may differ slightly in the west but the problems many women and businesses face are the same. You need to have a balanced view which looks at both sides of the arguments. 

There are some women who want the flexibility of having children, taking the time off when needed, and pay on equal level to male counterparts. Businesses want a productive workforce and wages in most cases make up the largest chunk of their business expenses. Many small/med businesses can't afford to take on more staff or pay the same rate to someone who is overall less productive due to personal choices. There's needs to balance, something has to give. 

To sweep such a topic under the banner of sexism doesn't do it justice nor does it reflect the true nature of the 'struggle'.


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## beyondsouske (Jun 28, 2015)

Lol if you _-Snip-_ read other manga you'd see that Kishi is good compared to other manga's like Toriko and hxh where women don't even exist. Not to mention Berserk's treatmentof women.


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## Lance (Jun 28, 2015)

beyondsouske said:


> Lol if you read other manga you'd see that Kishi is good compared to other manga's like Toriko and hxh where women don't even exist. Not to mention Berserk's treatmentof women.



Ahhhh.....what?
Plenty of female characters in HxH. Toriko I don't know.


Before bashing Berserk, look at its setting.


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## Seelentau (Jun 28, 2015)

There are some women in Toriko as well. But then again, all these manga are shonen, they're not aimed at pleasing an audience that wants to see women.

I mean, you wouldn't go see a horror movie and complain about the lack of scifi, would you? If you want to read a manga with many women, go find one.


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## A. Waltz (Jun 28, 2015)

i think the gaiden was a cool step up for him

main character is a girl, and no she doesn't look super girly or anything. just a normal kid. no cheesy "girly" clothing or hairstyle or anything. no romance arc or shit like that.

her best friend is a chubby black chick. at first, i was like "kishi what did you do, why you gotta do black people like that" but man chouchou has truly shined. sure the whole daddy thing is repetitive but man she's pretty cool. she shows that girls can eat, and she has so much self confidence, that's empowering, too. she's pretty funny.

the arc is about family and those familial relationships. im sure most girls can relate to salad and sakura arguing. or salad arguing with her dad. or that fear of losing a parent (well that's what salad felt was happening, obviously sakura is still her mom no matter what), ect. i love how she just yells at sasuke like no big deal. sure it's rude but she speaks her mind and doesn't shy away from saying what she feels. the target audience is the japanese population, and it's just so reserved and 'keep the peace'ish, so it's refreshing seeing not just a boy speak out but a girl speak out and yell and get angry and irritated. and they actually fight here. salad is a rebellious teen in this. that's just a teenager's nature, right? i think he does a good job of showing that. 



it's pretty refreshing


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 29, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> There are some women in Toriko as well. But then again, all these manga are shonen, they're not aimed at pleasing an audience that wants to see women.
> 
> I mean, you wouldn't go see a horror movie and complain about the lack of scifi, would you? If you want to read a manga with many women, go find one.


But, they wanna many women here in shonen Naruto. And since Kishi won't do it, he is sexist.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm sure it's been said in 13 pages but.... why is "he just doesn't know how to write women" an excuse?

WHY doesn't he know how to write women? He's an established author in his middle-ages with a wife and children who has been writing for almost 20 years. 

People think sexism is actively hating women and that's not always the case. Getting as far as Kishi has gotten and still pleading clueless as to how to write female characters properly IS sexist, because it indicates that he doesn't give a shit.


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## Seelentau (Jun 30, 2015)

So not knowing something about women and not actively acquiring that knowledge is sexism?
People aren't even allowed to be indifferent towards something in this world?
Does every single author must know how to write women? Then tell me, who decides what's the right way?
And what happens when all women are written that way? It results in a lack of originality for the sake of not being accused of being a sexist.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jun 30, 2015)

Holy. Shit. How the hell did this thread get 13 pages?!?! Do you guys really think Kishi goes out of his way to make the female cast so useless to the point he actively ignores them? Have you guys not thought that Kishi just has his favorites he likes to focus on more than the rest? Maybe he made the characters based on what they can do and not who they are.

Would it make more sense for Tsunade and Sakura to team up to fight Rikudo Madara, instead of Gai and Lee since he's weakest to Taijutsu then? Would it of been a better story if Kishi just had Naruto give all his Senjutsu powered chakra to Sakura and Tsunade to fight Madara, the same way he did with the alliance, with Sasuke playing back up? No. It wouldn't, because the story focused on Naruto and Sasuke as the stars.

Kishi developed Tsunade's character to the point she had a 2 people who were so close to her heart die that she left her home never coming back and developed a fear of blood. Kishi 1ups her even more when she puts that fear behind her and decides to become the very thing they died trying to do. Kishi gave a great example of a women who suffered immensely, endured it, and moved forward. If Kishi was truely sexist he would of just had Jiraiya tell her to take the job and she just does it no hesitation.

Most of this stuff about sexism comes from how Kishi portrayed the academy girls as drooling fan girls. Have you people never seen people like that at that age or something? What the hell do you call the Justin Bibber fans that cheer out to him when he spits on them? People like that do exist in the world. As bad as Sakura was when she is more worried about her hair than training, she matured when she cut her hair in order to save her comrades lives. Kishi was trying to show how the new generation of ninja did not know war so they were more normalized and laid back than their peers who went through war. Of course they were gonna act like that. Look at how Rin acted similar to them, but she acted in a more professional way due to the war. Kishi even had the Big Bad a women who is more powerful than everyone and manipulated everyone to her design to revive her.

Seriously guys. If anything Kishi would have more sexism on the male cast than the female cast. Naruto freaking reads dirty mags and changes into a naked girl, Kakashi reads erotic novels, Jiraiya writes those novels while he peeps and acts like a pimp, Sarutobi reads it too, and makes them all perverts. Itachi kills his whole clan with obito for peace. Madara is a power hungry thug who thrill fights. Tobirama is a hardass and bias. Hashirama spontaneously gets depressed and gambles. Sasuke acted entirely selfish. Danzo was a radical who caused wars to promote Konoha. All these are traits of man's infatuation with power.

Don't confuse sexism with character roles and don't confuse Kishi choosing the character he wants for the part vs your character not getting it as sexism. Good day.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Basilikos (Jun 30, 2015)

If you ask me, it's more likely incompetence than sexism.  Considering the manga's overall decline in quality once part two came around, I think Kishi simply had no clue what the hell he was doing in general.


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## Euraj (Jun 30, 2015)

I think it's more sexist writing than him actually being a sexist. The definition of sexism is "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex," and the story clearly does that. On his own part, like Basilikos said, I think he's just incompetent as fuck, perhaps partly as a result of the environment around him.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 30, 2015)

At most neglectful and/or not understanding them much.

But sexist? Naaaaah.

Shounen is generally about boys playing the main role and females being either love interests or being secondary in terms of plot relevance to main boys.

Of course there are exceptions there but generally those are mangas about boys directed towards a male audience. Which of course does not prevent females from liking it but they just shouldn't expect female characters to be equally important/plot relevant to males unless it is explicitly showcased.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Olympion (Jun 30, 2015)

I'm hardly the kind of guy who's quick to whine about sexism - in fact, I can't stand the SJWs and scam artists (*CoughAnitaSarkeesianCough*) who do. At the same time, I gotta admit that Kishi gives people accusing him of sexism A LOT of material to work with.

1) As pointed out earlier, the female characters, whatever their roles, are almost always the relative loser/ignored character of their respective group. Apart from Hinata (who's the most important person from her team despite limited panel time), even the most important female characters in the series are overshadowed by their male counterparts - just think of Sakura compared to the rest of Team 7, or Tsunade compared to the other Sannins - or indeed Tsunade compared to the previous Hokages. Basically, there's a reason the Naruto popularity polls look the way they do, and it's NOT primarily sexism on part of the shonen audience (the last comparable poll I saw for Bleach had ).

2) The obsession of even major, supposedly well developed female characters with particular guys (or in the case of Mei, marriage), to the point that it actually defines them, has already been pointed out. However, that makes it especially notable how almost all the major male characters (Obito being the exception) are defined by their relationships with other men. Is anyone going to attempt to claim that the most important people in Naruto or Sasuke's lives are their wives, or even their mothers? Hiruzen losing his wife happened so quickly and received so little attention that I barely registered it the first time I read it, while Hashirama's wife was purely a background character. In the series you'll see both male characters (Madara) and female characters (Konan) who have NO meaningful relationships with any female characters, while the reverse seems downright unthinkable - which again just exposes how few worthwhile female characters the series has in the first place.

3) Kaguya - the final-ish villain turns out to be a woman, and she's by far the least interesting and least developed major villain in the series, and shows the fewest redeeming qualities. I don't know quite what to make of that, especially seeing how poorly women in the series were represented in general, but I can't imagine it makes for many positive interpretations of how Kishi views women.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 30, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> So not knowing something about women and not actively acquiring that knowledge is sexism?
> People aren't even allowed to be indifferent towards something in this world?
> Does every single author must know how to write women? Then tell me, who decides what's the right way?
> And what happens when all women are written that way? It results in a lack of originality for the sake of not being accused of being a sexist.



If you're a published author and you make a living off of writing about human beings and their interactions with one another, and you struggle to write about women, and in twenty years you make no effort to learn how to treat them decently in your writing, then yea that is fucked up and sexist.

And Kishimoto _himself _admitted to not knowing how to write women, so why are you pretending that he was actually doing it right?


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## Seelentau (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't pretend he was doing it right. Kishimoto is a bad writer, but not only when it comes to women.
Also, he presented many different kind of women in Naruto. I explained that a few pages ago already.
Not every women in Naruto is a big-breasted sex object, a damsel in distress or simply useless.
We have fighters, we have stay-at-homes, we have Kages, we have crazy-in-love-ones, we have intellectual ones, we have shy ones, tomboyish ones and so on.
Again, none of the women are written well, but neither are the men. It's a simple manga with simple characters and that's perfectly fine for a shonen manga written by a third-class-author that Kishimoto is.


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## half0pain (Jul 6, 2015)

Does a person's work determine if they are sexist or not? The Warring States Era was not so long ago. Barely 70-80 years ago. Back then, women were having multiple kids and there was likely strong pressure to produce a son. I can understand if ninja struggle to come out of their old way of thinking. Men and women both are going to absorb the ideas and ways of thinking their elders show. Sandaime and crew are the first generation of Konoha. Not all women need to be strong, not all need to be weak. Female characters rarely play a role in the plot. There are women in positions of power. I wonder what made them role out kunoichi as fighters in the academy. (Ignoring that their curriculum doesn't differentiate between girls of different talents.)

Road to Ninja, for which the story is written by Kishi, shows us how little he thinks of the rookies if they simply display the opposite of a single characteristic of their person. Kiba liking cats? Hinata swearing and getting in people's faces? Shino hating bugs. It's Limited Tsukiyomi. Why play the opposite game? Shoddily at that.

Is Kishi sexist? 

Sexism is the prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women. 2. : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex.

Kishimoto in his interviews says stuff like:

“I don’t understand women’s hearts, so I consulted with a coworker before writing the scene of Sasuke and Sakura’s parting.”
The comment about Sakura not being a good woman if she switched to Naruto.

So yeah, Kishimoto is sexist. His statements in interviews show us clearly what he thinks of women, their behaviour and their attitudes. Their is a clear prejudice in his way of thinking. He thinks of them as an alien species.

"How sexist is Kishimoto?" No clue. Very? A little? He doesn't seem to care or maybe know that this is a problem? We don't have enough exposure to his direct words?


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## Seelentau (Jul 7, 2015)

So if you don't understand women, you're sexist?


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## heartsutra (Jul 7, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> So if you don't understand women, you're sexist?



Only if used as an excuse, I'd say.


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## shade0180 (Jul 7, 2015)

So a 4-8 year old can be considered a sexist because they can't understand woman/girls and they blatantly say that when you ask.


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## Seelentau (Jul 7, 2015)

Well, it's only natural to act based on one's understanding of something.


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## foxfairy (Aug 7, 2015)

I'm impressed that some people have argued that Kishimoto isnt sexist
 Clearly he is.

 Sexism has nothing to do necessarily with the size of the breasts Not really. All characters could have big breasts, but if they were written otherwise wouldnt be sexism. Women have breasts, then showing them would not be a problem. The problem would be if all women were treated as sexual objects. Fortunately, this  not the case with Kishimoto. But the fact that Kishi  dont put fan service doesnt mean he isnt sexist.

I will summarize, since it is not worth repeating some things that already been said.

In this manga all  women are accessories for men. And, even if they get strong, they are less than man, and it's normal in the manga.  In the first part, some female characters had potential, but their development were thrown in the trash. I know other males characters dont had the best development too, but it was due to other problem. The tone he gave to ALL female characters were sexist in a level or not. Gotta?

The fact that Kishimoto didnt know how to develop women contributest, but doesnt take away the fact that he is sexist. Someone can be sexist or anything else, unknowingly just reproducing what was taught. 

Anyway, as stated before, Kishimoto is not a malicious , he just didnt know how to develop the female characters. And the good part is that he recognizes this.


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## LesExit (Aug 7, 2015)

sanduice said:


> Anyway, as stated before, Kishimoto is not a malicious , he just didnt know how to develop the female characters. And the good part is that he recognizes this.


It's pretty much this. He just doesn't know what he's doing

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shadow050 (Aug 8, 2015)

sanduice said:


> I'm impressed that some people have argued that Kishimoto isnt sexist
> Clearly he is.



people, like myself, have argued that he or his manga isn't sexist because there's no legitimate basis for him being called that. every time - literally ever time - people have been calling him sexist it's been people who are themselves actually sexist (extremely bias in favor women) who think he's sexist because the manga doesn't give them what they fantasize about.



sanduice said:


> Sexism has nothing to do necessarily with the size of the breasts Not really. All characters could have big breasts, but if they were written otherwise wouldnt be sexism. Women have breasts, then showing them would not be a problem. The problem would be if all women were treated as sexual objects. Fortunately, this  not the case with Kishimoto. But the fact that Kishi  dont put fan service doesnt mean he isnt sexist.



this section is true.



sanduice said:


> I will summarize, since it is not worth repeating some things that already been said.
> 
> In this manga all  women are accessories for men. And, even if they get strong, they are less than man, and it's normal in the manga.  In the first part, some female characters had potential, but their development were thrown in the trash. I know other males characters dont had the best development too, but it was due to other problem. The tone he gave to ALL female characters were sexist in a level or not. Gotta?



and this is where you expose yourself as actually being the sexist one.

all women are NOT the accessories for men - that's completely and utterly false. tenten is not. temari is not. tsunade is not. chiyo was not. Ino is not (even she really had eyes for sasuke).  these people are not "accessories' for men.

some females has potential but then it seemed to be wasted? OH NO!! it's almost like the got _the same treatment that FAR MORE MALES received_. ask any neji, lee, kiba, shino, and plenty others fan. the fact that you hone in on women, who happened to be in the minority of people screwed over by kishi's focusing on naruto, sasuke, and rikudou related shit, as you claim this as proof of his sexism is actually PROOF that you are in fact the one who's sexist here.
nice try, in stating that "some" males got screwed over too, but the FACT is that the males who were screwed over were the majority of the poeple screwed AND their screwing over was more intense because they were already much further along the way and then their advancement seems to come to a screeching halt. you simply saying *"but it was due to other problem"* is worthless here because no one has any idea of what those "other reasons" were - and i think that includes you. you saying that is like giving lip service.

the "tone"? what?? this is another pretty random statement made with nothing to support it other than you subjectivity. 



sanduice said:


> The fact that Kishimoto didnt know how to develop women contributest, but doesnt take away the fact that he is sexist. Someone can be sexist or anything else, unknowingly just reproducing what was taught.



someone can indeed be "sexist" unknowingly, but the fact of the matter is that he isn't sexist unless humanity itself is equally sexist. when he put out something that parallels real life it doesn't mean he's sexist. this isn't a failure to develop female characters at all. what it is, is a series where females happened to not be the focus, and because of that various people decided to be jerks and attack him for it.

many a sexist thinking something is sexist if the thing doesn't fit their ideas or wants. it's like how many racists will think something is racist if they don't feel properly represented in something...their minds already focused on race, and they only really want their way. that's why racist people were bitching about the game The Witcher 3.... because there wasn't black/brown people in a location where they kinda weren't around historically in the first place. 

there's ALWAYS elements of realism in fiction, and fiction doesn't have to fit someone's random wants/ideas... people who demand that or want to cry about it need to simply go make their own.



sanduice said:


> Anyway, as stated before, Kishimoto is not a malicious , he just didnt know how to develop the female characters. And the good part is that he recognizes this.



he's not malicious but more importantly, he's not sexist based on this manga or it's depictions. 

but the people calling him sexist certainly are sexist themselves. i don't think most of them to be malicious but they're certainly harmful because they're being "useful idiots".

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## EnterTheTao (Aug 8, 2015)

People in this thread genuinely believe that sexism *must* be willful and malicious. Even if it's not purposeful, it's still sexism, people.

Here's a tip: men in 1950's America didn't think of themselves as sexist. But most were. Kishimoto buys into and utilizes sexist tropes when writing, and refuses to give any female character development. You can still like the manga while acknowledging this.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Shadow050 (Aug 8, 2015)

PikaCheeka said:


> I'm sure it's been said in 13 pages but.... why is "he just doesn't know how to write women" an excuse?
> 
> WHY doesn't he know how to write women? He's an established author in his middle-ages with a wife and children who has been writing for almost 20 years.
> 
> People think sexism is actively hating women and that's not always the case. Getting as far as Kishi has gotten and still pleading clueless as to how to write female characters properly IS sexist, because it indicates that he doesn't give a shit.



actively hating women is misogyny, not sexism.... those people need to do some homework.


kishi's claim about not knowing how to write them properly doesn't make him a sexist, it likely just makes him a bullshiter who's saying that to try to get people off his back. either way, it's a subjective opinion he has of himself and nothing more. it seriously doesn't mean that much in terms of fact.

he probably feels that way because he's likely "not allowed" to write women properly because people will always find something to complain about regarding females characters.

people in general are (virtually) ALWAYS more critical of female characters because HUMANS are biased in their favor and protective of them - NATURALLY. this is basically proven by science.
when female characters are created everything gets nitpicked apart and harshly criticized and a bunch of people will be very mean to an artist, esp a male one, after they latch on to something to be angry about.

when a female character is born, first her looks and body is criticized like crazy... esp her outfit/costume. then they go crazy over her personality... "stereotypical" this and that... or "that's so unrealistic"  there's no pleasing people. and that's the most likely reason kishi says what he does.

when it comes to males? lol people generally don't give a shit.

people can verify this by asking artists about their experiences... people are always more critical and harsh about female characters. things like that influenced me to draw them even less when i was young.

similar things happen with race too btw.
white males are 'fair game' to creators to display in any way they want... but if they do the same thing with a black character, all hell starts to break loose.

this occurs so much because too many people have been infected with a very toxic ideology, and most are generally unaware of it.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Shadow050 (Aug 8, 2015)

EnterTheTao said:


> People in this thread genuinely believe that sexism *must* be willful and malicious. Even if it's not purposeful, it's still sexism, people.
> 
> Here's a tip: men in 1950's America didn't think of themselves as sexist. But most were. Kishimoto buys into and utilizes sexist tropes when writing, and refuses to give any female character development. You can still like the manga while acknowledging this.



kishi isn't sexist *against women* is the point of people defending him.

sexist tropes? i can almost guarantee that this term is itself, sexist. 

if kishi is "sexist" make it clear that he's NOT sexist AGAINST WOMEN, but he's equally sexist because when it comes to stereotypes and shit BOTH MALES AND FEMALES are there.

don't start going down the history lines without understanding things about the times and the conditions that humans have faced over the many years we've been on the planet. before various advancements in technology sexism didn't really "exist" because it was a shitty situation for HUMANITY in general, and BOTH MEN AND WOMEN were subject to jobs and tasks they might not have wanted to do, but had to do anyway because that's how things were.

people call the men the sexists one because they take a one-sided view of history and bask in their ignorance. women were restricted to things, and so were men. 

if you're so convinced that men in that era were "sexist", define sexism and then explain how they were sexist in general... just make sure apply the same standards of scrutiny doesn't convict women as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## foxfairy (Aug 9, 2015)

Shadow050 said:


> and this is where you expose yourself as actually being the sexist one.
> 
> all women are NOT the accessories for men - that's completely and utterly false. tenten is not. temari is not. tsunade is not. chiyo was not. Ino is not (even she really had eyes for sasuke).  these people are not "accessories' for men.
> 
> some females has potential but then it seemed to be wasted? OH NO!! it's almost like the got _the same treatment that FAR MORE MALES received_. ask any neji, lee, kiba, shino, and plenty others fan. the fact that you hone in on women, who happened to be in the minority of people screwed over by kishi's focusing on naruto, sasuke, and rikudou related shit, as you claim this as proof of his sexism is actually PROOF that you are in fact the one who's sexist here.




I would ask you not put my words out of context. Some characters get more development that others, and so? Nobody could have the same level of spotlight. Its not, necessarly, how much the females “are on camera”, but the way they are developed. The quality of their development. 

 The fact that their development are sexist. Sakura and Hinata , the heroines, gets an undoubtedly sexist development. You said about Tenten and Chiyo? Who? Even are all secondary characters, that when compared to their male team comrades with equal role, are WEAKER and gets less spotlight. 

The only character that can be argued that isnt really sexist is Tsunade, but I have my doubts about it. 





Shadow050 said:


> nice try, in stating that "some" males got screwed over too, but the FACT is that the males who were screwed over were the majority of the poeple screwed AND their screwing over was more intense because they were already much further along the way and then their advancement seems to come to a screeching halt. you simply saying *"but it was due to other problem"* is worthless here because no one has any idea of what those "other reasons" were - and i think that includes you. you saying that is like giving lip service.the "tone"? what?? this is another pretty random statement made with nothing to support it other than you subjectivity.



All the female characters in this manga are linked in a way or another to female roles related man: the loved one, is a mother, grandmother, etc... Grand part of the man is not. There is also villains, secondary  male characters we also dont know any connection to a female character.  

A female have a loved one, being a mother, a grandmother, or even a housewife is necessarily sexism? No. But in Naruto case, its.

And not because the protagnosts are clingy to men. It’s because their development and role is liked to male characters, but not the male characters are linked to a woman. And this is sexism. 

It’s the similar case with the boobs. There’s corporal diferences and, that are specific to each gender (not exclusive, let me say). If you use boob to turn woman a fetish, its sexism. It’s the same to society roles (wife, housewife, etc...). 

If Kishimoto wants that focus in just Naruto and Sasuke, it’s ok. This not necessarily sexism. He can have an heroin (Sakura) that’s is sexist. An individual character doesnt represent the vision of the manga. The exception isnt the rule, you know? 

Another example? Kishimito could show, for example, some character being racist to Killer Bee. And it wouldnt mean that the manga is racist. It’s the way the subject is handled. 


Kishimoto can not be the author of the century. And the flaws in his manga has a bunch of motives. For example the change in battles style, the way he handle sasuke and Naruto friendship.  The manga contradicting itself.  Naruto and Sasuke, imo, are very bad devolped. But the reasons they are bad devoped it ISNT sexism. But I will not go in depth about it on this topic. 



Shadow050 said:


> someone can indeed be "sexist" unknowingly, but the fact of the matter is that he isn't sexist unless humanity itself is equally sexist. when he put out something that parallels real life it doesn't mean he's sexist. this isn't a failure to develop female characters at all. what it is, is a series where females happened to not be the focus, and because of that various people decided to be jerks and attack him for it.
> 
> many a sexist thinking something is sexist if the thing doesn't fit their ideas or wants. it's like how many racists will think something is racist if they don't feel properly represented in something...their minds already focused on race, and they only really want their way. that's why racist people were bitching about the game The Witcher 3.... because there wasn't black/brown people in a location where they kinda weren't around historically in the first place.





OMG, and you call me sexist? you have idea how much sexism and even racist things you said? You may not have been intended to have been so, and even must “have black friends and may be a woman”, but you were prejudiced.

We live in a macho world? Yes. We live in a racist world? Yes. We live in a world with social inequities? Yup. These things need to be fought? Yup 


What you wrote, you're just justifying racism. When you state that people fighting to be represented in any work, are "bitching" and that THEY are racist or sexist, you are being extremely biased. 


So, in your view, everything are excusable. It's ok being racist, sexist, because we live in a unequal world, huh? then be like that it is forgivable. And who wants to being represented is idiot, bitch, and even racist. 

The topic is if Kishimoto is sexist, and HE IS.  He is more sexist than Oda, and others shounen authors. But there's mangas that are much more sexist than Naruto. 

I will not go into detail about witch 4 because I dont know the game and neither its fanbase. But if it's fantasy genre, could have at least one black character, even not going on in Africa.  Even Naruto, a shinobi world, there’s black characters. Probably the editors asked, but so what? 

It would be stupid if they were demanding that the main character were black. That would be  REALLY stupid. Would be as stupid as someone demanded that the main character of any franchise to be of any ethnicity. I will not go much on this issue because I'm getting out of topic. 




Shadow050 said:


> there's ALWAYS elements of realism in fiction, and fiction doesn't have to fit someone's random wants/ideas... people who demand that or want to cry about it need to simply go make their own.



About Naruto: Naruto isnt reality. Naruto dont needs to mirror real world. But all composition reflects the world the author lives, and  his morals. It is impossible not to reflect. And Kishimoto views and values are sexist, though the manga has many other good values. 




Shadow050 said:


> he's not malicious but more importantly, he's not sexist based on this manga or it's depictions.





Ok, lets go .. 
First of all, i've never said that the fact Kishimoto says he cant write women is excusable. Maybe I didnt express myself well, but I will lighten: When Kishimoto states he fails write women is  a good start, the fact that he RECOGNIZE that.  

As said before by others, he’s a man, married. He coudnt ask her wife an opinion about females? Maybe he and his wife dont give a darn? We dont know his reasons to not make an effort to understand women, anyway “malicious” or “not” he is sexist. 

I said that just because there was some people excusing him, saying that he didnt know woman, and he didnt had bad intentions, so he is not sexist, and all my post was explaining that this point is fail. 

I'll make some allegories here: I can write about something I dont “know”, let me see... the eastern people. The way i handle it, I can stereotyping the culture in a bad way, and it reflects my view of life, besides not being my intent offend anyone, I But if I wrote anything racist in one level or another, I have pre-concepts anyway. I acknowledge it, is already a big step. In the future I can deconstruct these values.
I dont think Kishimoto is racist, its just an alegory. Okay? 



Shadow050 said:


> but the people calling him sexist certainly are sexist themselves. i don't think most of them to be malicious but they're certainly harmful because they're being "useful idiots".



You call people sexist, useful idiots and racist. Had you already stoped to reflect on your own values? Had ever thought that there are people who think you also idiot?




Shadow050 said:


> people in general are (virtually) ALWAYS more critical of female characters because HUMANS are biased in their favor and protective of them - NATURALLY. this is basically proven by science.
> when female characters are created everything gets nitpicked apart and harshly criticized and a bunch of people will be very mean to an artist, esp a male one, after they latch on to something to be angry about.
> 
> when a female character is born, first her looks and body is criticized like crazy... esp her outfit/costume. then they go crazy over her personality... "stereotypical" this and that... or "that's so unrealistic" :faceplam there's no pleasing people. and that's the most likely reason kishi says what he does.
> ...



People are critical because these examples you gave are MINORITIES. In the past of the humanity they were exploited, enslaved, treated as things, had no voice. And the way they are treated today are super analyzed because they are often represented, unfairly, even if it's unintentionally, This are due to a historically difficult past and people, reproduces the things they learn through the history, because the past is what make who we are today. Besides of course, most of them not being "malicious".  

That does not mean that justifies portraying a man and white people in bad way. It is also terrible. But women, blacks, homosexuals and other minorities need to be represented correctly. And I repeat, the Naruto reasons of Sasuke and other males characters being not well developed has nothing to do with sexism. Their motives of they having flaws is not because they are man, or white. 




Shadow050 said:


> kishi isn't sexist *against women* is the point of people defending him.
> 
> sexist tropes? i can almost guarantee that this term is itself, sexist.
> 
> if kishi is "sexist" make it clear that he's NOT sexist AGAINST WOMEN, but he's equally sexist because when it comes to stereotypes and shit BOTH MALES AND FEMALES are there.






Shadow050 said:


> if you're so convinced that men in that era were "sexist", define sexism and then explain how they were sexist in general... just make sure apply the same standards of scrutiny doesn't convict women as well.



Every misogyny is sexist. But not every sexism is misogynistic
I fact, the mangas not misogynistic
. 
Sexism is treat an espefic gender as inferior. 
Misoginy is to hate woman. If there were not woman in Kishimoto manga, or if ALL woman died, for example, he would be misogynistic. It's a more complex than it. 
The opposite of misoginy is misandry. Gotta?

Anyway, your argument is: Everything justifies and no one is prejudicial because ALL HUMANITY are , and they think they are doing a good thing, so it's not their fault.   Also, if theres woman and man in a series, the woman are handled in a sexist way, so the man is also automatically, just because they both genders are there. 
The fact that woman is treated as inferior (and this what  sexism means) doesnt means nothing, because man are bad developed. Huh??? 



PikaCheeka said:


> I'm sure it's been said in 13 pages but.... why is "he just doesn't know how to write women" an excuse?
> 
> WHY doesn't he know how to write women? He's an established author in his middle-ages with a wife and children who has been writing for almost 20 years.
> 
> People think sexism is actively hating women and that's not always the case. Getting as far as Kishi has gotten and still pleading clueless as to how to write female characters properly IS sexist, because it indicates that he doesn't give a shit.





Shadow050 said:


> actively hating women is misogyny, not sexism.... those people need to do some homework.



Hey... Somebody can be misogynist without neither knowing it. 

And you have the courage to send other people do homework? Seriously???

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Shadow050 (Aug 10, 2015)

sanduice said:


> I would ask you not put my words out of context. Some characters get more development that others, and so? Nobody could have the same level of spotlight. Its not, necessarily, how much the females are on camera, but the way they are developed. The quality of their development.
> 
> The fact that their development are sexist. Sakura and Hinata , the heroines, gets an undoubtedly sexist development. You said about Tenten and Chiyo? Who? Even are all secondary characters, that when compared to their male team comrades with equal role, are WEAKER and gets less spotlight.
> 
> The only character that can be argued that isnt really sexist is Tsunade, but I have my doubts about it.



i didn't take your words out of context. if you feel i did state exactly how i did that please.

the quality of one's development CAN'T be severed from their chances to even be spotlighted. you need adequate spotlight or on camera time for your development to be done well - period. it doesn't matter how you rise or fall as a character, inadequate camera time will end up feeling like poor character development - at least to an objective person/critic.

it is not a "fact" that their development is sexist because sexism isn't factually based in the first place. it's SUBJECTIVE and mostly based on perspective. and from an OBJECTIVE standpoint, there are too many things that contradict your notions that he's sexist [against women]. the very EXISTENCE of those MANY contradictions means that one can't "factually" call HIM or his MANGA sexist. 

the manga paints a world... in that world many things occur, just like in ours. and character and people have various differences and combinations of stereotypes which makes them up. just like in real life, each and every person can have various sereotypes said about them and they will apply in limited scopes. it's the same way with females (AND MALES) in this damn manga. people only focus on the females though. the fact that stereotypes can being pointed out DOES NOT make him or the manga sexist unless you think EVERYTHING is sexist because when the same standards are applied you will get THE SAME RESULTS.

so what that those are secondary characters - damn near every character no named sasuke, naruto, senju or uchiha are freakin' secondary characters... what's your point? you just singled out the 2 females who ended up with the 2 main characters of the story, and actually tried to use this to actually *mean* something... the fact that THE main character had significant development related to one of those females (sakura) is IGNORED or MISSED though. either way, NOT all females have their existence based on males, and various males are "linked" (that word you use in the next section) to females too. the very standard you attempted to use is biased and doesn't even lead to the conclusions you are drawing. MOST of the females show they have their own personality and goals and such that they wish to one day realize. you and others ignore this FACT as you make your assertions about sexist treatment of females and this blindness is itself and sign of sexism.

failing to see a woman's strengths - especially natural feminine strengths - is in itself SEXIST. feminism has ironically always been guilty of this. i can explain how if you want.

it's YOUR OPINION that all the females are in their respective groups are weaker than the males, and nothing more... but even if that happens to be the case it wouldn't be proof positive that the author is sexist. trying to claim so is like seeing A, then B, then C, then leaping all the way to Z. it's making a premature leap on very little "evidence" and no actual "proof".



sanduice said:


> All the female characters in this manga are linked in a way or another to female roles related man: the loved one, is a mother, grandmother, etc... Grand part of the man is not. There is also villains, secondary  male characters we also dont know any connection to a female character.
> 
> A female have a loved one, being a mother, a grandmother, or even a housewife is necessarily sexism? No. But in Naruto case, its.
> 
> ...



the females in the manga are all connected to men... but the men aren't connected to females? that's not even true. and being connected to men is sexist in what way?

what's important is that their existence isn't BASED ON males - even when they're highly interested in them. what happens is that VIEWERS overextend their shitty view, and claim and act like female existences are BASED ON men. this is DEFINITELY not the damn case. 

and EASY person to mention is tusnade... because she was undoubtedly one of those females people WOULD HAVE continued to say that bullshit about... but look what happened - 3 of her male loved ones died in the this manga... and magically her character pressed on... just like ANY of the other female characters could and no-doubt would have. 

this drives the point that the PROBLEM is that viewers take their shitty view and start fouling up the waters with it. 

if you continue to hold this view that the manga and author is sexist, can you de-sexist-ify some sexist things for us? i can guarantee you that if i put on the tard hat like the average person attacking the manga for these bullshit reasons i too can distort WHATEVER YOU COME UP WITH as 'sexist' too.

also btw, almost all the named characters (male or female) in the series were linked to a woman... her name is kaguya.

you're starting to be confusing... you acknowledge that exceptions are not the rule (which i agree with), but still claim kshi and the mange to be sexist based on exceptions.

the women have not been fetish-ized in this series. and the few characters who are flaunt a bit of sex appeal are exceptions - which you already acknowledged as "not the rule".

you didn't fulfill anything i was getting at in the section of mine that you quoted. you didn't state those "other reasons" that males were poorly developed "due to", and that is the main point of what you quoted. in fact, you end up re-stating that you won't go in depth about those reasons. this make me wonder what the point of you quoting me there even was, if you're not addressing anything i said there.


the last paragraph of this section - no contest there... that part is true. 



sanduice said:


> OMG, and you call me sexist? you have idea how much sexism and even racist things you said? You may not have been intended to have been so, and even must have black friends and may be a woman, but you were prejudiced.
> 
> We live in a macho world? Yes. We live in a racist world? Yes. We live in a world with social inequities? Yup. These things need to be fought? Yup
> 
> ...



if you were referring to the section above what you wrote at this point, not a damn thing i said was sexist or racist.. so yes, i do know how much i saidthat was sexist or racist - NOTHING.

you damn right i called you sexist...when people falsely claim sexism or racism under one-sided views which reveal themselves to be sexist, only on the opposite end of the spectrum that makes them the very thing they are accusing others of!

i AM black and i'm not a woman. if some person - black or not - jumps in and coddles me or other black people on the basis of us being black by crying for us about how unfair things are for us and thereby arguing that I and other black people need extra help to do shit we are perfectly capable of... that means they are racist themselves. it's a weird kind of racist, but it's similar to the kind of "sexist" that people claimed men to be due to things like chivalry.

no - i didn't not say being sexist or racist is ok because it's like that in reality lol... i didn't say that at all. i said it's (the manga's) not sexist unless you think all of humanity itself is sexist. one shouldn't be calling things sexist if you don't understand a lot about male and female natures and other things to begin with. if you think that makes me sexist - your problem is with science and math which indicates these things in their results. humanity itself is what gives us these results. aligning some things (in the manga) with those results DOES NOT make a person or their product sexist. that's the point... especially about the person - because NONE of us actually know kishi and are in his head so stop accusing him of a thought crime/offense.

it's not that being like that is forgivable, it's that jumping to those conclusions prematurely and/or off biased views IS WRONG, and evidence of the accuser being the one who's guilty of the offense.

you emphatically claiming kishi is sexist doesn't in fact make him sexist. repeating that claim will do absolutely nothing for the claim itself. if you have no concrete evidence and examples to support your claim with, just admit it's simply your *incredibly negative and inflammatory personal opinion* that should be kept to yourself, and let's move on.

it's witcher 3 but to the point... the COULD have had at least one black character in their, but they DO NOT NEED TO INCLUDE ONE - especially not just for the sake of saying "LOOK LOOK WE INCLUDED ONE PLEASE DON'T CALL US RACISTS! PLEASE!!!" because that's the kind of shit ACTUAL racists are more likely to do in order to try mask themselves. they do bullshit and include some "token" black dude as if they have to fill a quota or some shit. THAT is disgraceful. i don't need some asshole trying to coddle me and those with my complexion, and i find THAT more offense than just happening to not be included in some shit where people who looked like me happened to not even be around in the  first place! now, if they had virtually not black characters EXCEPT for them being bad guys in the game... then i might be like "hey,  wait a second..." but that's not the case either.

yes, them demanding the main character be black here would have been stupid too. their demanding such things, and/or their complaining that no one was black in the game, is what i call them bitching. because these same fucks wouldn't be saying "how come there's no white people in this game" if it was the other way around... which means they're just being narcissists or something, and they need to get over themselves.

truly equality doesn't mean you treated well, how you want, how you treat others, or anything like that... TRUE equality means people can and might treat you in a shitty way, and in the even that they do you (and others) DO NOT default to some random butthurt, victimhood-revealing, likely low self-esteem caused conclusion that they treated you that was because the color of your skin, your ethnicity, you height/weight, your sexual orientation, etc... THAT is what equality truly looks like. when those are not one's go-to conclusions, but instead the last thing it "might" be... we will have made progress.... but that's not going to happen because people LOVE to have something cry "injustice" about. 



sanduice said:


> About Naruto: Naruto isnt reality. Naruto dont needs to mirror real world. But all composition reflects the world the author lives, and  his morals. It is impossible not to reflect. And Kishimoto views and values are sexist.



corret, naruto isn't reality... and it doesn't _NEED_ to mirror the real world... *but IT IS FREE TO*, and it choosing to do so don't make it any kind of "ist"... this point and FACT seems to be lost on everyone attacking kishi and the manga as sexist... because people fail to understand this basic concept, this conversation keeps popping back up time and time again. seriously, if people decide to they can claim anything is sexist one way or the next. it's really REALLY stupid - more often than not.

you are *wrong* about all composition reflects the world the author lives and his values lol. you're DEAD WRONG about about that, and the fact that you said that speaks volumes on you and how narrow minded your thinking is at this point in your life. it indicates you have a very shallow understanding of creative-anything, and that you make a TON of serious assumptions.

perhaps YOUR art or creative thing would be telling the world about about YOU but it doesn't work that way for all artists... what you did there is likely projection.



sanduice said:


> Ok, lets go ..
> First of all, i've never said that the fact Kishimoto says he cant write women is excusable. Maybe I didnt express myself well, but I will lighten: When Kishimoto states he fails write women is  a good start, the fact that he RECOGNIZE that.
> 
> As said before by others, hes a man, married. He coudnt ask her wife an opinion about females? Maybe he and his wife dont give a darn? We dont know his reasons to not make an effort to understand women, anyway malicious or not he is sexist.
> ...



I didn't say you did say that, now did i? we don't know the TRUTH behind if kishi "recognizes" or his giving us some bullshit... we CAN'T know. 

there's the numerous assumptions again... who's to say he hasn't asked around? who's to say there aren't women on his team who could offer their insights? who to say that women would necessarily be experts on women too? 

based on your allegory, if you did that would you accept the label of racist for yourself? OF COURSE NOT!
also i could be mistaken but your allegory if off base... in your allegory, the way you say makes it seem like you truly understand nothing about eastern people and have no experiences with them, etc... this is not the case for kishi - obviously. if his understand was THAT shit-tier he wouldn't be married. 

it's like people KNOW kishi is bullshitting (or exaggerating) about his lack of understanding of women, but at the same time believe it lol. my personal opinion is that his claim is complete BS, and i've made that clear in the previous post.



sanduice said:


> You call people sexist, useful idiots and racist. Had you already stoped to reflect on your own values? Had ever thought that there are people who think you also idiot?



lol of course i've reflected on my own values... i'm actually quite introspective and that's EXACTLY WHY i don't think like these sexists and useful idiots (i never thought in racist ways) anymore! i know what they are because I USED TO BE ONE OF THEM.

i don't care if people think i'm an idiot because it's only been noted idiots who i've known to think this - idiots usually thing non-idiots are idiots... kind of how plenty of actual idiots thought Einstein was an idiot (though i'm not comparing myself to Einstein at all) lol. btw, "" is not the same as an "idiot", i'm not being snarky here... most people don't know that there's a difference.



sanduice said:


> People are critical because these examples you gave are MINORITIES. In the past of the humanity they were exploited, enslaved, treated as things, had no voice. And the way they are treated today are super analyzed because they are often represented, unfairly, even if it's unintentionally, This are due to a historically difficult past and people, reproduces the things they learn through the history, because the past is what make who we are today. Besides of course, most of them not being "malicious".
> 
> That does not mean that justifies portraying a man and white people, in bad way. It is also terrible. But women, blacks, homosexuals and other minorities need to be represented correctly. And I repeat, the Naruto reasons of Sasuke and other characters being not well developed has nothing to do with sexism. Their motives of they having flaws is not because they are man, or white.



i know there have been oppressed groups. their reasons for extra criticism and sensitivity DO NOT justify their oppression of creative and artisitc expression. 

ALL of those oppressed groups demand "equality" and "proper representation" and other things... the problem is this... when they get equality, they DO NOT LIKE IT and do not want it. not only i've been observing this my entire life, but there are countless example of this. and can ANYONE explain wtf "proper representation" actually means? - because LITERALLY every time i've seen/hear a person claim this they reveal themselves to simply want something to be presented in *THEIR VIEW*... that's not "proper" anything beyond SUBJECTIVITY.

like damn near any group touting the "equality" thing, those people demand the positive but never the negatives... meaning they don't want actual equality in the first place but _*special treatment*_ instead. people will be quick to point out how there aren't enough black superheroes saving the day, but it takes them YEARS to say "hey there's not enough black super villains either!" and the reason THAT might be the case is because many people are afraid to put black people in these roles because the moment they do they get BRANDED AS RACIST BY THESE SAME ASSHOLES DEMANDING EQUALITY. and their demands and politically correct shenanigans IS OPPRESSION... they're just too blinded by their ideology to see it.

many people do not know that forcing "equality" in the form of results REQUIRES oppression. 

people who are very quick to claim some kind of "ism" almost never truly desire the things they will later claim (that being equality)... it's similar to how the likes of Al Sharpton would NEVER want actual equality - because then his cash cow would be dead. other people who don't make money don't want it gone either because then their favorite excuses and WEAPON vanishes.



sanduice said:


> Every misogyny is sexist. But not every sexism is misogynistic
> I fact, the mangas not misogynistic
> .
> Sexism is threat an espefic gender as inferior.
> ...



i'm well aware of the differences of sexism, misogyny and misandry... i'm impressed you'd actually acknowledge misandry (i'm sure you recognized that this site, along with microsoft word, doesn't lol). but sexism is NOT ONLY the treating as on sex as inferior. it's holding the view that one sex as inferior based on their sex... it's also holding the view that one sex as superior based on their sex, and while that might sound the same as treating one sex as inferior, it's not. if view women as inferior based on them being a woman, i'm being sexist... and likewise, if i view women as being superior based on them being a woman it's sexism too. this is significant people many people fail to realize they may be hold something that just happens to be dominated by a particular sex as the basis of comparison and that SEXIST mistake on their part will lead them directly to feeling like something sexist is afoot. so... when people glorify a particular kind of "strength" more common with males, and they use that as the comparison between males and females they will UNDOUBTEDLY be lead to saying "[fill in the blank] is SEXIST!!" - _exactly like what's happened with this manga/series_.

no... my argument is that everything is justified because the fact that SOME characters have some pre-judices does not make the author or the manga istself any kind of "ist" or "ism" or prejudiced itself, nor is it necessarily that if some or various characters can be shown to embody various stereotypes - because that's possible with ANYTHING in fiction held to the same standards, thus this is a stupid abd invalid standard to try to go by. it's especially stupid when people only apply their standards to one sex, and then ignore all the clear examples going on with the other sex so they can drive a bullshit narrative (and those actions make them the sexist ones).

YOU are writing the male characters off as "just poorly written" while claiming the women how they are because of sexism. what you did just now was insert a portion of YOUR OWN ideas as if they're mine. my view is that the males are written equally "sexist" to that of the females, which makes kishi NOT "sexist against women"... and at the worst "equally sexist regarding both sexes". 

that's another random opinion of yours that you mention as if it's a fact, and i don't at all agree with it. OBJECTIVELY - women in general are not treated are inferior in general by men in general in this manga. the very few i can even think of _just happened_ to be *VILLAINS* too. the HEROES treat the women with respect, deference and reverence, or fear of pissing them off. things like this are more likely to be implying the author's views.

it's EXTREMELY COMMON for guys who are assholes to women be INSTANTLY identified as villains... and i mean real assholes who are menacing/threatening/violent... not assholes like sasuke was who just have a general "i'm to awesome for all you mfas" attitude btw. if a person was actually sexist they usually wouldn't be so inclined to reserve this kind of behavior for asshole villains they're trying to make us root against.



sanduice said:


> Hey... Somebody can be misogynist without neither knowing it.
> 
> And you have the courage to send other people do homework? Seriously???



i agree, a person can be a misogynist without knowing it.

of course i have the courage to say that... even though i wouldn't call it courage. it's just a figure of speech meaning they need to know what they're talking about before they start yapping. i'd informed people would agree since the person i was responding to mentioned that people show that they don't understand the differences between sexism and misogyny. if people don't know the difference between those terms they really shouldn't be talking about them here... they should be learning those differences before they start throwing the words around recklessly - no?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Seelentau (Aug 10, 2015)

Tsunade has the biggest tits in the whole series. How is that not a sexist display of Kishimoto's male rape fantasies?


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## Shadow050 (Aug 10, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Tsunade has the biggest tits in the whole series. How is that not a sexist display of Kishimoto's male rape fantasies?



how is a woman having big tits a display of "male rape fantasies"? how is it 'sexist'?

tsunade is an anecdote. kishi gave her a personality *thing* about her - most likely so he wouldn't be trying to draw her a old but not super old (like chiyo) woman. he gave her a personality thing where she was obvious very concerned about her looks/aging and chest. we KNOW that she changes her appearance through jutsu too - because not only did we see she was flat chested while young, but it was also stated that she makes her breast bigger with the pain of loss or something like that. this is a unique thing with her and it's generally NOT fetishized by the series. 

all because something is sexual doesn't mean it's sexist or anything necessarily. 

good lord 

characters are commonly drawn with sex appeal. people on this board stay trying to speak as if they're in the heads of artists while blatantly showing thing have no damn idea how things work for artists or art or ficition at all. this is a little different from manga/anime stuff, but there's still learning one can pull from this:

_not that a couple of the artists are FEMALE artists, and the characters they draw possess sex appeal too male or female._


*on a more serious note*
you people seem to think it's perfectly fine to just assume or accuse people of shit that's considered the most heinous and/or reprehensible things with little to know evidence. i know this is the internet and trolls are abound, but this shit gets ridiculous. this is a problem.

if kishi had rape fantasies he could EASILY hash those out through making actual hentai or some shit.

also, people do know that rape fantasies are more popular among women - right?

smmfh

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## CrazyAries (Aug 10, 2015)

*Shadow050*, it looks like you didn?t realize that *Seelentau* has been arguing against the notion that Kishimoto is sexist. What he posted above was in sarcasm.


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## KazeYama (Aug 10, 2015)

This is an issue with Japanese/western society and the fact that he is specifically dictated to write to a typically male, adolescent fan base. There is an established standard for shonen that females end up being tertiary support characters, love interests, or both. Sadly Kishi could have really taken a stand and made his female characters more progressive or important, but he failed to do so. Over the course of the series the female characters became even less relevant over time. If you want to even include the most recent stuff all of the female characters seem relegated to being frail housewives now instead of actual threatening ninja.

 Sakura is pretty much a complete 180 in the newest material compared to her original self she has somehow become even more emotionally irrelevant where her only contribution is occasionally angrily punching something. 

I'm trying to think of the best developed or strongest female characters in the series and I think you are left with Tsunade...and Tsunade. ChouChou was actually a pretty cool character too from what little we saw of her but she didn't really do anything. Every other female ends up being permanently attached to their male counterpart to have any relevance and when the development of a female character is dependent upon the male for any progress (i.e. Hinata and Sakura with Naruto and Sasuke) then the whole thing falls apart. 

In comparing it to other series it doesn't really stand above the others. One Piece probably features more blatant perverseness, fanservice, and sexualization yet it has several core female characters who contribute to the overarching plot and you get introduced to plot relevant characters every arc even if they may typically fall into the damsel stereotype. 

Bleach has a bunch of female characters who are not that sexualized, but they all seem largely irrelevant or are used as plot devices to serve the males. 

Fairy Tail is the very bottom of the barrel as far as disgusting fan service is concerned, but the females are actually given stories and portrayed as powerful. 

Naruto probably falls into the middle of the pack and it's portrayal of woman is no more egregious than any other major shonen although that really doesn't say much. Sadly I don't know if this is something any single author can do to fix. It would require a new series with a lead female character who isn't sexualized and actually portrayed properly to become a big hit to inspire other series to do the same, but that is pretty contradictory to what makes shonen popular in the first place so I doubt any editors or higher ups would be willing to actually support or push a series of that kind.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 10, 2015)

Just enough so that Tsunade wouldn't get a Sage Mode of her own and if you need more reasons, well just look at Sakura's character


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## Shadow050 (Aug 11, 2015)

CrazyAries said:


> *Shadow050*, it looks like you didn’t realize that *Seelentau* has been arguing against the notion that Kishimoto is sexist. What he posted above was in sarcasm.



that would be correct.... 

my bad *Seelentau*... this thread has me in rabid battle mode for the most part lol, and i didn't see your previous posts (or remember seeing them i guess).

*On another note*

the one shot chapter completely obliterates these notions of sexism lol...

AND more importantly pretty much confirms everything I've ever said about the byakugan  lol

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## RWB (Aug 17, 2015)

Kishimoto's manga isn't really sexist, he's just bad at writing women. The two aren't the same at all.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## DSTREET45 (Aug 19, 2015)

RWB said:


> Kishimoto's manga isn't really sexist, he's just bad at writing women. The two aren't the same at all.



^^^^^This.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## AlexDnD (Aug 23, 2015)

Why do people worry about this?


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## Seelentau (Aug 23, 2015)

Because some like to be offended. It's their hobby to actively look for things that could offend them and then complain about them online, sometimes even expecting things to change by doing that.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Zensuki (Aug 23, 2015)

Seelentau said:


> Because some like to be offended. It's their hobby to actively look for things that could offend them and then complain about them online, sometimes even expecting things to change by doing that.



this post

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## foxfairy (Sep 20, 2016)

Shadow050 said:


> i didn't take your words out of context. if you feel i did state exactly how i did that please.
> 
> the quality of one's development CAN'T be severed from their chances to even be spotlighted. you need adequate spotlight or on camera time for your development to be done well - period. it doesn't matter how you rise or fall as a character, inadequate camera time will end up feeling like poor character development - at least to an objective person/critic.
> 
> ...



hah my first post in this forum.
anyway,

1)sexism is not subjective. sexism exists and the manga is sexist. If you think the females development is not sexist you are in denial.

2) all the female characters are tied to a man: sakura line was to pursue sasuke even after he tried to kill her, hinata even if she had a background, she was a satelite character around Naruto, Chyio was the villain grandomother, Kushina the protagonist mother, Konan the representant of her lover ideal, Tenten has no development and she's always shown with ther colleagues, Ino swapped her sasuke's crush for Sai, and so go on...

Naruto on the other hand just cared about romance and felt for Hinata in the last moments, Sasuke was focused in his revenge, Neji and Rock Lee who are tenten classmates, are shown to have their own arc and fights independent of tenten, and so go on....

3) if you are sad that people and your pc doesn't recognize misandry it's not my problem. This is no reason to ignore sexism against women.

4) yes it's sexism if you see women as superior, and  this is not naruto's scenario. Whats the point? No one in this thread ever said that women are superior to men.

5) yeah, there's people who claim equality just to do bs and take things for granted, i never said that people like that doesn't exist. Whats the point? But also there's people who fight for their rights and are serious about it. Some people do disfavour to some moviments, but they don't represent everyone. Actually i coudn't care less about Naruto characters, as they are not real. The problem is that some people think that to be sexist, racist or homophobe you need to be "malicious",  and that no one can point others cultures are sexist. Doing that they are reproducing a flawed mentality. That doesn't mean that Kishimoto is evil, etc...  he's from a japanese society that's very "tradicional" and segregative with genders. Maybe this is changing now, but Kishimoto is not of the younger generation, so he chose to follow the norms, and this mentality is showed in his manga.

If so, the isis that don't accept women to study and kill women who go to universities are ok, because it's of their culture? making people clitless in some countries is not sexism? a very different example, of course, but the same reasoning

6) yeah, i already said that. One character opinion doesn't represent the author view of life. I said that three times. Madara is really sexist but he's one of my favorite characters because he's a villain, and his sexism is viewed in a bad light. Also, don't distort my words, I hate when people do that. I give the same example with Killer B, as you coudn't understand when saying the same thing with genders. I said if one character showed to be bigoted against him but this is not showed as rule, and  also viewed in a bad light in the manga, this is ok because it's not the author view. The problem is that the story is sexist or racist and this is the naturalized in the manga

Sakura is the worst of all being married to  man that humilliated her, but in her scenario, with the gaiden, i consider that Kishimoto knows that the couple is not healthy and trolled them.

Being sexist is when you have stereotyped roles to some gender. Specially when most women stop to work when they get married, and the core of their character is linked to loving or taking care of men, but the core of men character isn't linked to women.  Did the males stoped to work before they married? Did all male characters had roles related to structural families, as a grandfather, healer, father or husband? Most of important characters like Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi, Madara, we don't even know if they had any important female in their lives and if they "exist", they are irrelevant and have not even have names.

Again, i don't want kishimoto to change his work, i'm just pointing something. Sexism is much more than beating woman and calling them ugly. There's levels of sexism.

7)" you emphatically claiming kishi is sexist doesn't in fact make him sexist. repeating that claim will do absolutely nothing for the claim itself. if you have no concrete evidence and examples to support your claim with, just admit it's simply your incredibly negative and inflammatory _personal_ opinion that should be kept to yourself, and let's move on." *using the same logic, you calling he's not sexist, doesn't make him not being sexist. there's a lot of claims to base that, just read this whole thread, for example. *


8) "idiots who think other are idiots are the idiots" wow this is contradictory. So earlier you offended other people so this can be applied to you as well. I'm not saying this is true, anyway. Just the logic makes no sense at all. Anyway  someone thinking that other is idiot don't make them automacally idiot, okay?

9) hm... true equality doesn't mean anyone being treated like shit due to their gender, ethnic group, sexuality, maybe you should '"do your homework" and study what equality means.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 3


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 20, 2016)

Why is this being necro'd?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LadyTenTen (Sep 20, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> Tsunade has the biggest tits in the whole series. How is that not a sexist display of Kishimoto's male rape fantasies?



There is a display of different breast-sizes in the series. He is kinda considerate in that aspect XD


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## HisokaRollin (Sep 20, 2016)

Lucky7 said:


> ^The man writes women as women, not as a normal person. Sakura is the heroine of the series and personifies sexist ideas about them- weak willed, emotionally unstable, cannot handle situations as adequately as male counterparts because of the tendency towards uncontrollabe overemotion, love and romance is a primary point in their lives, they are forever waiting for that one boy they've attached themselves to as children for whatever reason and will endure any and all degradation and years of pining with nothing in return, women who stop pursuing someone they had romantic feelings for and got with someone else would make them a terrible woman, desperately insecure and searching for male validation, having to help out on the sidelines while the boys handle the real problems, she even has to give up on trying to do anything because she will always be too weak, and when faced with people not liking Sakura's character he thinks that she will be more well received if he draws her prettier.
> 
> Although, I agree that Kishi isn't a raging sexist, in fact, I don't even think he realizes his treatment of most of his female characters. As you said, he doesn't really use them for fanservice or what have you. Its just that oftentimes he struggles with his female characters because instead of just thinking of them as characters, he thinks of them as female and thus some complete alien species from their male counterparts.
> 
> ...



Agree with everything here. It sums it all pretty well.


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## Seelentau (Sep 20, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Why is this being necro'd?



cuz defending fictional characters from the safety of a bedroom and feeling like you've accomplished something is easier than stepping out into the real world and actually doing something for women that are actually suffering

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 20, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> cuz defending fictional characters from the safety of a bedroom and feeling like you've accomplished something is easier than stepping out into the real world and actually doing something for women that are actually suffering


Fair enough, at least you know you're wasting time

Reactions: Like 2


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## DSTREET45 (Sep 20, 2016)

He's not. A lot of the "justifications" (not having the big fights. no sibling bond, caring about the opposite sex/marriage, not enough focus panel time about goals etc,) can be attributed to the male characters as well. Not to mention that most of the "hard evidence" shown here (mainly the scans) are about Sakura. I don't even hate Sakura (or at least as much as other people do) but she's not a good enough character to base a claim off of for a majority of her gender.  

As for Mei she's just a . Period. In fact she might even be a parody of it since, IIRC, her "I'm going to kill you for unintentionally insulting my age" moments are often played for laughs. Hell if that's true Kishi is just reinforcing that the stereotype of women not being marriageable after the age of 25 is stupid.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 20, 2016)

About as much as Oda


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## LadyTenTen (Sep 21, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> About as much as Oda



Oda's female characters are great. What do you have against them?


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## Zensuki (Sep 21, 2016)

DSTREET45 said:


> He's not. A lot of the "justifications" (not having the big fights. no sibling bond, caring about the opposite sex/marriage, not enough focus panel time about goals etc,) can be attributed to the male characters as well.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> cuz defending fictional characters from the safety of a bedroom and feeling like you've accomplished something is easier than stepping out into the real world and actually doing something for women that are actually suffering


yeah because members of naruto forums have no off life, no job, no friends and automatcally do nohing substantial to others in the real world


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

That's not what I said, though.


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> That's not what I said, though.


uh, ok, so maybe i it was a irony and i dont got it


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

No, it was not. I absolutely detest online feminism. It holds no worth in the real world, because it's all talk. Especially in a forum about a fictional story. Saying Kishimoto is sexist because he depicts fictional characters as they are does nothing for those who suffer from actual sexism. It's pretty much like speaking out against violence in video games.


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> No, it was not. I absolutely detest online feminism. It holds no worth in the real world, because it's all talk. Especially in a forum about a fictional story. Saying Kishimoto is sexist because he depicts fictional characters as they are does nothing for those who suffer from actual sexism. It's pretty much like speaking out against violence in video games.


and why do you suppose i do nothing in real life? i work in ong with women who was suffered physical abuse, and so what? why do you assume that people here do nothing in real life? maybe are you projecting?
there's some feminists who are retards and are really sexist, i agree. this kind of peole exist in any area. But you have no clue to attack and assume no one is serious about that, and i for sure have more baggage to talk about feminism than you.
i'm not defending characters, i'm trying to fight against mentality that for being racist or sexist you need to be extreme, as there's a lot of ways to be sexist.


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## Zensuki (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> No, it was not. I absolutely detest online feminism. It holds no worth in the real world, because it's all talk. Especially in a forum about a fictional story. Saying Kishimoto is sexist because he depicts fictional characters as they are does nothing for those who suffer from actual sexism. It's pretty much like speaking out against violence in video games.



Funniest thing is how most of these claims are not even female exclusive. Most of the time these people don't even care about the female characters, rather there is usually an agenda.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

sanduice said:


> and why do you suppose i do nothing in real life? i work in ong with women who was suffered physical abuse, and so what? why do you assume that people here do nothing in real life? maybe are you projecting?
> there's some feminists who are retards and are really sexist, i agree. this kind of peole exist in any area. But you have no clue to attack and assume no one is serious about that, and i for sure have more baggage to talk about feminism than you.
> i'm not defending characters, i'm trying to fight against mentality that for being racist or sexist you need to be extreme, as there's a lot of ways to be sexist.



If you actually do something against sexism, good for you. Then my statement obviously wasn't directed at you.
And what would I project on you? That I myself don't do anything against sexism?

Well, in my opinion, you're fighting a fight that can't be won. Changing another persons mind on the internet is one of the hardest things to do, if not entirely impossible.
And as I said, fictional sexism is like fictional violence: It doesn't matter. The same way people don't shoot others because of CoD, people don't hate women because Kishimoto depicted Sakura as a useless girl.


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> If you actually do something against sexism, good for you. Then my statement obviously wasn't directed at you.
> And what would I project on you? That I myself don't do anything against sexism?
> 
> Well, in my opinion, you're fighting a fight that can't be won. Changing another persons mind on the internet is one of the hardest things to do, if not entirely impossible.
> And as I said, fictional sexism is like fictional violence: It doesn't matter. The same way people don't shoot others because of CoD, people don't hate women because Kishimoto depicted Sakura as a useless girl.



the problem is not with sakura, and  it seems kishimoto hates her.  actually a long ago i ignored this thread, but now reading again the guy called me racist and sexist and distorted my answer, so that's why i answered him. Also, even so, even if a hard quest, i think we should do what we can to make our world a better place, anyway. It's more hard and difficult fight against sexism in real world where monstrous things happens, than in internet, for that i can assure you.




Zensuki said:


> Funniest thing is how most of these claims are not even female exclusive. Most of the time these people don't even care about the female characters, rather there is usually an agenda.


it seems you are reproducing what i said moments ago? i said i don't care for naruto characters at all and i rarely defend them mostly because they are badly written, with one or two exception. and the thread is if kishimoto is sexist, and not " defend x character" or if "X character is sexist. "


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

Exactly, the real world is what matters (or should matter), but most of today's feminism doesn't even deal with the real problems. It's always about stuff like man-spreading, tampons being sexist and other completely trivial things.
The way it is now, this kind of feminism will only result in backlash after backlash. Look at prominent feminists like Emma Watson, even they condemn the misandry that has surfaced in recent years.
And that's why I don't call myself feminist. I'm all for a better world, but I can also see the differences between men and women and can understand that real equality will never be achieved.


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> Exactly, the real world is what matters (or should matter), but most of today's feminism doesn't even deal with the real problems. It's always about stuff like man-spreading, tampons being sexist and other completely trivial things.
> The way it is now, this kind of feminism will only result in backlash after backlash. Look at prominent feminists like Emma Watson, even they condemn the misandry that has surfaced in recent years.
> And that's why I don't call myself feminist. I'm all for a better world, but I can also see the differences between men and women and can understand that real equality will never be achieved.


yeah, last year i tried to participate in one "feminist" group online, and their agenda was praticaly complain that: their boyfriends are mean to them, they don't feel beautiful because they don't have big boobs or their body are not in shape, so  the media makes them feel ugly, and they want to do nudes or topless but are critized for it, so they feel opressed. i wanted to puke.

The opression women suffer and suffered through the centuries are much bigger than men, but feminism is about gender equality, and there's a lot of people who call themselves "feminists" who are shallow and even hate men and other women. Yeah, i agree that the word feminist is hard to swallow nowadays, but for now there's no other denomination for those who fight for gender equality, unfortunately.


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

Equalist or equalitarian. But those, in turn, are frowned upon by feminists (even the sane ones).


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> Equalist or equalitarian. But those, in turn, are frowned upon by feminists (even the sane ones).


not really.


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## Seelentau (Sep 21, 2016)

Not? Well from what I've seen, they are. Like this, for example.


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## foxfairy (Sep 21, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> Not? Well from what I've seen, they are. Like this, for example.


not sure if i understood well, english is not my first language so sometimes it's hard to understand  perfectly some phrases, but if i read well, all feminists, even the sane ones, are crazy and frown upon equalitarian treatment for the genders, but the feminist concept is equality of genres. The problem of any man shouldn't be ignored or
diminished because they are male.

But, for example, in my country women are beaten much more than men, and there are states like isis who defend inhumane things against women, and that worries me much more than girls posting nude pictures on the Internet and some men feeling cornered by those same girls. And serious people are attacked without reason by people offended because some women can't defend the "oppressed men".

Again, i agree that a lot of spoiled people use the world feminist and do disservice to it, so of course there's girls like that, a lot. But they are not everyone, maybe you have bad luck, or you stay much time in internet, or you should look for feminists in more serious places, they exist and are there.


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## Shadow050 (Oct 9, 2016)

sanduice said:


> hah my first post in this forum.
> anyway,
> 
> 1)sexism is not subjective. sexism exists and the manga is sexist. If you think the females development is not sexist you are in denial.



sexism is very subjective. 
many people will see "sexism" in almost anything, because there's no real objective standard nor is there any interest in setting something objective. if it wasn't so subjective, thee wouldn't be so much debate over it. objective sexism does exist too. the sexism you and other speak of, is subjective... and more importantly, it's incorrect. 



sanduice said:


> 2) all the female characters are tied to a man: sakura line was to pursue sasuke even after he tried to kill her, hinata even if she had a background, she was a satelite character around Naruto, Chyio was the villain grandomother, Kushina the protagonist mother, Konan the representant of her lover ideal, Tenten has no development and she's always shown with ther colleagues, Ino swapped her sasuke's crush for Sai, and so go on...
> 
> Naruto on the other hand just cared about romance and felt for Hinata in the last moments, Sasuke was focused in his revenge, Neji and Rock Lee who are tenten classmates, are shown to have their own arc and fights independent of tenten, and so go on....



this is ridiculous, and it's your projection. what man was shizune "tied" to? some of your "ties" are mere relations for goodness sake lol. 
Naruto had eyes on sakura in the beginning. 

do you know that the presence of inequality doesn't necessarily mean discrimination? you pointing out how Tenten didn't get the same treatment or involvement as her male counterparts makes no sense. you've read/watched the series... you know why that team was chosen. 



sanduice said:


> 3) if you are sad that people and your pc doesn't recognize misandry it's not my problem. This is no reason to ignore sexism against women.



LOL "sad"? no. just pointing out a fact for you.



sanduice said:


> 4) yes it's sexism if you see women as superior, and  this is not naruto's scenario. Whats the point? No one in this thread ever said that women are superior to men.



I was explaining sexism more thoroughly and letting you know that YOU AND OTHERS _are being sexist_ by some of the very comparisons you're making. taking female characters, and then judging them and their worth by comparing them to males who dominate a particular trait/ability/etc, so you can call the manga sexist is a sexist act on your part.

I know they didn't say women are superior. they SHOW that they already consider men superior, was the point (part of it, at least). 



sanduice said:


> 5) yeah, there's people who claim equality just to do bs and take things for granted, i never said that people like that doesn't exist. Whats the point? But also there's people who fight for their rights and are serious about it. Some people do disfavour to some moviments, but they don't represent everyone. Actually i coudn't care less about Naruto characters, as they are not real. The problem is that some people think that to be sexist, racist or homophobe you need to be "malicious",  and that no one can point others cultures are sexist. Doing that they are reproducing a flawed mentality. That doesn't mean that Kishimoto is evil, etc...  he's from a japanese society that's very "tradicional" and segregative with genders. Maybe this is changing now, but Kishimoto is not of the younger generation, so he chose to follow the norms, and this mentality is showed in his manga.
> 
> If so, the isis that don't accept women to study and kill women who go to universities are ok, because it's of their culture? making people clitless in some countries is not sexism? a very different example, of course, but the same reasoning



if you don't need to be malicious in order to be a sexist, racist, homophobic, etc... why do people treat that behavior as automatically sexist, racist, homophobic? wouldn't it follow, that people can be assholes to these people without being sexist, racist, homophobic too?

if kishi was merely following and operating within his culture, it wouldn't be fair to attack HIM as the "ist"... but rather his culture. 
Cultures can definitely be called out for their practices.
Either way though... kishi and this manga isn't sexist.



sanduice said:


> 6) yeah, i already said that. One character opinion doesn't represent the author view of life. I said that three times. Madara is really sexist but he's one of my favorite characters because he's a villain, and his sexism is viewed in a bad light. Also, don't distort my words, I hate when people do that. I give the same example with Killer B, as you coudn't understand when saying the same thing with genders. I said if one character showed to be bigoted against him but this is not showed as rule, and  also viewed in a bad light in the manga, this is ok because it's not the author view. The problem is that the story is sexist or racist and this is the naturalized in the manga
> 
> Sakura is the worst of all being married to  man that humilliated her, but in her scenario, with the gaiden, i consider that Kishimoto knows that the couple is not healthy and trolled them.
> 
> ...



do you consider nature itself to be sexist?
it's not SEXISM for women to stop working and tend to their family -- it's NATURE. 
how the hell do you think humans have gotten this far? you need to do some studying up on human history and evolution, it seems. and stop drinking that poisonous feminist kool-aid!



sanduice said:


> 7)" you emphatically claiming kishi is sexist doesn't in fact make him sexist. repeating that claim will do absolutely nothing for the claim itself. if you have no concrete evidence and examples to support your claim with, just admit it's simply your incredibly negative and inflammatory _personal_ opinion that should be kept to yourself, and let's move on." *using the same logic, you calling he's not sexist, doesn't make him not being sexist. there's a lot of claims to base that, just read this whole thread, for example. *




you can't use the same logic, because we're not in the same position. YOU and others here have "the burden of proof" for you claim. I do not. so long as you fail to provide sufficient proof of your claim, there is no burden of proof on me for my counter-claim. 

and you need more than just a mere "basis" for the claim for it to be _*"concrete evidence and examples"*_. 



sanduice said:


> 8) "idiots who think other are idiots are the idiots" wow this is contradictory. So earlier you offended other people so this can be applied to you as well. I'm not saying this is true, anyway. Just the logic makes no sense at all. Anyway  someone thinking that other is idiot don't make them automacally idiot, okay?



you misinterpreted what i said. nothing i said there was "automatic"... YOU inserted that.
if i did include that automatic, yes, my claim would be wrong.... but because i didn't, my claim is true. there's no "all" (nor is there an "automatic") involved, to be clear. it's merely true, that there's plenty instances where idiots think smart people are idiots... and the actual idiot thinks/believes that because they're an idiots (and probably don't realize it).



sanduice said:


> 9) hm... true equality doesn't mean anyone being treated like shit due to their gender, ethnic group, sexuality, maybe you should '"do your homework" and study what equality means.



"true equality"? how does this differ from "equality"?  
I'm going to assume there's no difference until you give me a good reason to differentiate them.
equally shitty treatment IS a form of equality... it's just not the form of equality people tend to seek/want.

if "true equality" means everyone is treated the same _AND no one is treated like shit_, then you're merely inventing new terms and definitions

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


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## Inuhanyou (Oct 9, 2016)

You don't judge the barometer of "sexism" and misogyny of an author based on what outfits they wear alone OP. Rather how they are portrayed, in addition to any external factors.


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## Seelentau (Oct 9, 2016)

That was my initial thought as well, back when I read the title for the first time. Like "hmm, considering everything, I'd say Kishimoto is 3 sexist". On what scale? From 1 to Trump? How do you measure sexism?

To my knowledge, sexism is the oppression of a person because of their sex. How can you oppress a fictional character? It's not like you can interact with them, right? You can only make other characters interact with them. So wouldn't that make the other characters sexist? Then again, they're all fictional, so if it's fictional sexism, is it even relevant to the general discussion? Or is it like the argument that fictional violence makes us murderers?

Then, if we go further and try to abolish this fictional sexism, where do we even begin? We can't tell the characters to stop how they're acting, right? But we can't tell the author to stop depicting their characters like that, either. After all, they're free to do so. Plus, if you want it or not, all the different stereotypes in Naruto also exist in real life. There are powerful women, weak women, love-crazy women, bored women, busty women, flat women, housewifes, working women. So what's wrong with depicting them like that in a fictional story? Wouldn't it be even more sexist to depict all women as strong don't-need-no-man goddesses?


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## LazyWaka (Oct 9, 2016)

Honestly Kishis horrible writing in regards to women in this manga is probably done more out of laziness/unwillingness to write about anyone other than Sasuke rather than any sort of agenda.

Doesn't make the series any better mind you.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## daty (Oct 14, 2016)

Seelentau said:


> That was my initial thought as well, back when I read the title for the first time. Like "hmm, considering everything, I'd say Kishimoto is 3 sexist". On what scale? From 1 to Trump? How do you measure sexism?
> 
> To my knowledge, sexism is the oppression of a person because of their sex. How can you oppress a fictional character? It's not like you can interact with them, right? You can only make other characters interact with them. So wouldn't that make the other characters sexist? Then again, they're all fictional, so if it's fictional sexism, is it even relevant to the general discussion? Or is it like the argument that fictional violence makes us murderers?
> 
> Then, if we go further and try to abolish this fictional sexism, where do we even begin? We can't tell the characters to stop how they're acting, right? But we can't tell the author to stop depicting their characters like that, either. After all, they're free to do so. Plus, if you want it or not, all the different stereotypes in Naruto also exist in real life. There are powerful women, weak women, love-crazy women, bored women, busty women, flat women, housewifes, working women. So what's wrong with depicting them like that in a fictional story? Wouldn't it be even more sexist to depict all women as strong don't-need-no-man goddesses?


but no one ever said to boycott Naruto or Kishimoto, or anythig like that. Saying that is impossible to exist sexist fictional works is the same to say that there's no works embodied with racist or elitist ideologies, for example. Naruto is an awesome manga, but one of it's flaw is the sexist treatment towards it's female characters. The manga would be better if women were treated better, but even so, it's still good. People don't need any secret agenda to be sexist.

This text can explain how and why kishimoto is sexist, i don't agree with everything, but i think this article is a good start for people like you that can't understand how a manga or ficional book can be sexist.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Seelentau (Oct 14, 2016)

Why do you quote me and then don't answer any of my questions? o.ô


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## Aphrodite (Oct 14, 2016)

He loves men.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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