# Current war arc Kakashi vs Living Itachi



## kakashibeast (Dec 17, 2013)

Location: Valley of the end
Distance: 30 Meters

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: None 
I think that Kakashi takes it especially with his current feats (He warped Gedo Mazo's arm in an instant (before the summoning jutsu was completely done). So kakashi can warp an object A LOT BIGGER THAN A HUMAN BODY faster than a S/T jutsu as fast as Kuchiyose is..) What do yo think guys ?


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## richard lewis (Dec 17, 2013)

kakashibeast said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> Distance: 30 Meters
> 
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...



just wanted to let you know that you should say spoiler somewhere in the title when posting info about the latest chapter..... the mods tend to get made when you don't

Anyway given kakashi's current feats I wouldn't put it past him to be able to warp susanoo entirely with itachi in it. kamui in my opinion should be able to warp away amaterasu flames, and personally I think with the MS kakashi can break tosukiyomi "assuming he even falls for it in the first place". in terms of base abilities kakashi is better and he has slightly more stamina at this point.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

Nah, the dude that hyped Itachi's items just had his own knowledge hyped concerning pretty much all the best jutsu in the manga.





In the end, Kakashi only has one Mangekyō, Itachi has two and is an Uchiha that can use their 'full power.' Itachi is also portrayed and hyped as the single most skilled and intelligent ninja by the author.

With all that said, however... yeah, "Kamui GG" is totally possible from an objective observation of its feats. But it's possible against Madara too. The author would never ever have that happen, however.​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 17, 2013)

wow
such itachi
much genjutsu
very solo


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## Bonly (Dec 17, 2013)

Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Suiton to deal with Itachi's Katons and with their being a water source around Kakashi can do his larger scale Suiton. Although Itachi can just copy Kakashi Suiton and use it to cancel Kakashi's Suiton if Kakashi uses them for offensive. Kakashi also as Dotons such as  and Doryūheki to try and help block/dodge Itachi's Suiton if they weren't fighting on the water.

Kakashi already knows about Tsukuyomi and had a little bout without looking into Itachi's eyes so Kakashi likely won't fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him and with a Sharingan Kakashi could likely break out of any bar Tsukuyomi which he likely won't fall for. Although with Itachi's speed and cunningness he can set up for a good attack or can land a blow on Kakashi depending on how fast Kakashi can get out of the genjutsu as well as the distance the two have between each other. Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints(by using a clone feint himself) as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi. Kakashi on the otherhand has successfully feinted Itachi(although he was only a 30 percent clone). With Kakashi's increase in speed overtime and him only getting tactically better and already dealing with Itachi's moves, Kakashi can handle base Itachi while in base for the most part and this isn't even mentioning the rest of base Kakashi's arsenal which could help him take out Itachi.

Now comes the part where it becomes a toss up. MS vs MS. Kakashi can deal with one of Itachi's MS jutsu aka Tsukuyomi but Ama on the other hand which as far as we know he doesn't have any knowledge about besides what it looks like, upon which would be possible for Kakashi to get hit on the first time around. Sure Kakashi can counter it by going underground or putting up a Doryūheki or using smoke bombs to block Itachi's sight to avoid being hit or something but without knowledge of Ama''s process, I doubt Kakashi would randomly do such. On the flip side Itachi(as far as we know) has no knowledge that Kakashi has Kamui. Itachi hasn't shown the speed to be able to not get hit by it which likely could hit Itachi and be a damaging blow be it taking out a body part like he did against Deidara or be it using Kamui to warp up Itachi entirely like he did Naruto. So it comes down to who hits who first with their MS jutsu.

Next comes the Susanoo, assuming Itachi brings it out before he dies that is. Kakashi has no Ninjutsu that can get past the Yata Mirror nor any jutsu strong enough to break through it or Susanoo itself. Likewise Susanoo isn't something Itachi can keep up for long periods of time due to the drain he feels. Itachi was able to quickly cut off alot of Orochi's snake heads and his sword has good reach so Itachi can slice up Kakashi or seal him if Kakashi is pierced. Itachi has Yasaka no Magatama for some range attacking but Kakashi could likely dodge it. And while Itachi can do all of this with his Susanoo, he may not be able to successfully do so in a fight depending on his chakra levels. 

I feel that this is a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi and Itachi take each other out in one hit before Susanoo is brought out. Itachi would seem to have the advantage when full Susanoo comes into play but Kakashi might be able to outlast Itachi. Either way its a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi has gotten very stronger and on the same level as Itachi in the general area in my opinion. Although depending on how Kakashi uses Kamui he could take out Itachi quite early in the fight as well as depending on how Itachi uses Ama he could take out Kakashi quite early in the fight.


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## fior fior (Dec 17, 2013)

This is a rape. Kakashi warps everything that Itachi throws at him. He's also faster, stronger, and just as good when it comes to battle tactics. He has more bunshin variants and more stamina.

Kakashi outclasses Itachi in every aspect but for Genjutsu. Even so, there's no way Kakashi - who took on Obito head-to-head in a battle of solely Genjutsu - is falling for anything less than Tsukuyomi. Even Tsukuyomi is unlikely to trap Kakashi.


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## Brooks (Dec 17, 2013)

Itachi has better reaction than EMS Sasuke(who was able to react to a sub-relativistic+ being)

Itachi dodges Kamui and blitzes Kakashi


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

fior fior said:


> This is a rape. Kakashi warps everything that Itachi throws at him. He's also faster, stronger, and just as good when it comes to battle tactics. He has more bunshin variants and more stamina.
> 
> Kakashi outclasses Itachi in every aspect but for Genjutsu. Even so, there's no way Kakashi - who took on Obito head-to-head in a battle of solely Genjutsu - is falling for anything less than Tsukuyomi. Even Tsukuyomi is unlikely to trap Kakashi.



Kakashi's ninjutsu execution speed isn't as fast as Itachi's seals, and Kakashi isn't faster than [resurrected, sick] Itachi, who blitzed Killer Bee, let alone Itachi in the peak of his life.

Their strength feats are comparable, but strength is neglibible to weapon users, and Itachi has _much_ better weapon hype and feats. Also, Itachi can spawn Susano'o in an instant to rip things apart.

Itachi has better clones too, btw. Crow, Exploding vs Water, Lightning. Itachi's tactical feats smoke Kakashi too, like predicting how an entire fight plays out before it even happens.​


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## Mercurial (Dec 17, 2013)

fior fior said:


> This is a rape. Kakashiwarps everything that Itachi throws at him. He's also faster, stronger, and just as go warps eveod when it comes to battle tactics. He has more bunshin variants and more stamina.
> 
> Kakashi outclasses Itachi in every aspect but for Genjutsu. Even so, there's no way Kakashi - who took on Obito head-to-head in a battle of solely Genjutsu - is falling for anything less than Tsukuyomi. Even Tsukuyomi is unlikely to trap Kakashi.



Basically. But I'd correct the "warps everything that Itachi throws at him" with.. "warps him"


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## Nikushimi (Dec 17, 2013)

Itachi probably has the speed to evade/preempt Kamui with his Jutsu execution speed, but what really hurts him is his lack of any apparent awareness of the Jutsu.

Since it was used on Deidara several times, he may have heard about it. But there's no evidence of that, so it remains a subject of speculation.

The starting distance definitely favors Kakashi in this match; I have no idea why they are being pitted against each other at a distance of 30m.

It seems like this is just an excuse to say Kakashi one-shots with Kamui, but I'm still not convinced that's the case. If Kakashi doesn't do it immediately, Itachi will have enough time to block LOS and/or switch with a clone. If that happens, they're going to end up doing that back and forth until one of them successfully lands an MS finisher--and, if that's what ends up happening, Itachi has more finishers and thus more options on the table.

And honestly, if Kakashi can resort to Kamui right away, I see no reason Itachi can't resort to Amaterasu right away. Even if the Jutsu hasn't got Kamui's range, it'll still obstruct Kakashi's visual.

Most people would probably agree that Kamui can be executed much faster, but I don't agree that that is necessarily the case; taking ALL of their showings into consideration, Kakashi's Kamui does seem to have a brief delay before it is used (Obito was able to interrupt it...twice), whereas the time it takes to execute Amaterasu has suffered from inconsistent portrayal.

Kamui has definitely been the proverbial elephant in the room for a long time, though, and this chapter has really brought the issue to a point at which it can no longer be ignored. Kakashi just Kamui'd the arm off a boss summon-sized target before Kuchiyose took effect.

I'll say this: With knowledge, Itachi has a _plausible_ shot at avoiding instant Kamui defeat. Without knowledge, his odds are...not good.


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## Garcher (Dec 17, 2013)

Itachi rapes so hard lol. Itachi already solod him canon.

Anyway, Itachi was with 13 years Anbu CAPTAIN, Kakashi was with ~20 or something like this a regular member. Itachi is in another league.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Suiton to deal with Itachi's Katons and with their being a water source around Kakashi can do his larger scale Suiton. Although Itachi can just copy Kakashi Suiton and use it to cancel Kakashi's Suiton if Kakashi uses them for offensive.



With Itachi's superhuman seal speed, he can likely outpace Kakashi's jutsu like he did to Sage Kabuto.​


Bonly said:


> Kakashi already knows about Tsukuyomi and had a little bout without looking into Itachi's eyes so Kakashi likely won't fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him and with a Sharingan Kakashi could likely break out of any bar Tsukuyomi which he likely won't fall for.



You're forgetting the genjutsu Itachi cast on Naruto with his , which would provide the opening he needs to land a ciritcal hit.​


Bonly said:


> Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints(by using a clone feint himself) as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi.



Itachi was  casting jutsu, which contrasts his weakened Edo zipping around Bee using jutsu. Kakashi has never responded to living Itachi's best.​


Bonly said:


> Kakashi on the otherhand has successfully feinted Itachi(although he was only a 30 percent clone).



Itachi noted his clone was out of chakra, so it wasn't tactical superiority, just logistic necessity. A nearly drained [sick?] clone doing this and requiring Naruto's assistance is notable.​


Bonly said:


> Kakashi can handle base Itachi while in base for the most part and this isn't even mentioning the rest of base Kakashi's arsenal which could help him take out Itachi.



[Resurrected, sick] Itachi's , ,  have been above current Kakashi, and living Itachi was always holding back and/or being held back.

The way they're portrayed is clearly different. Itachi is superhumanly talented in fundamental skills and  1. Kakashi is a genius, but he's not at Itachi's level.

And I'm just talking about base here, naturally.​


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## kakashibeast (Dec 17, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi rapes so hard lol. Itachi already solod him canon.
> 
> Anyway, Itachi was with 13 years Anbu CAPTAIN, Kakashi was with ~20 or something like this a regular member. Itachi is in another league.



Well Kakashi was a chunin at 6 and itachi was still in the acadamey at that age so Kakashi is on a different leage .. and Itachi soloed a part one Kakashi without MS .. Current Kakashi mastered his MS to the highest degree and has better stamina then Itachi


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## Octavian (Dec 17, 2013)

in all honestly, plot was the only thing that prevented kakashi from eradicating all of gedo mazou instead of just ripping off its right arm. from a feats only standpoint, kakashi wins. if kishi were writing this fight, we know he wouldn't allow kakashi to beat itachi


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

kakashibeast said:


> Well Kakashi was a chunin at 6 and itachi was still in the acadamey at that age



Itachi was said to be the best the academy ever saw though, plus he beat Orochimaru at 11 when Kakashi at 26 was shakin' in his boots. In terms of development, Itachi is undeniably superior.​


kakashibeast said:


> Current Kakashi mastered his MS to the highest degree and has better stamina then Itachi



We don't know if he has better stamina than healthy Itachi. We saw part one Itachi use Kage Bunshin, mind-controlling genjutsu, 86 hours of Tsukuyomi, and a crazy-strong Amaterasu in one day, plus Kisame was confounded as to why Itachi was retreating, which indicates that Itachi was capable of significantly more. 

It's likely that neither would have any real stamina constraints in battle. Besides, arguments from stamina are last resorts of people, especially when tactical Mangekyō users are involved. Nobody's outlasting Kakashi or Itachi before they land a jutsu. They have to be overpowered quickly, otherwise they'll use a clone feint and dōjutsu.​


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 17, 2013)

I am doubtful Kakashi is that strong just from this chapter alone. He's probably still weaker than Itachi, although he's very close to being on Itachi's level.


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## Mercurial (Dec 17, 2013)

Kakashi could Kamui a human body before Obito, with full knowledge on the jutsu and also on Kakashi's intent, could even notice it, at the point he thought he hit the Kage Bunshin. Kakashi's reflexes allow him to this jutsu timing, and Kamui is executed this fast. Also Kakashi warped away a head sized Rasengan in the same time Obito made intangible his arm, and that is instant. Kakashi without going all out easily outsmarted Itachi (it was a clone with 30% chakra but all Itachi's features, skills and everything... granted Itachi didn't go all out, but neither did Kakashi, who fooled him with absolute ease) and we've seen Kakashi outsmarting and completely fooling Pain too. Kakashi has also far better base ninjutsu and skillset, Itachi is better in genjutsu but not to the point this should make a real difference. Kakashi's taijutsu feats are better than Itachi's, and Kakashi is physically faster (Obito could physically keep up with no Shunshin KCM Naruto's serious speed, and Kakashi outreacted and outspeeded Obito multiple times). Kakashi has more stamina and more chakra to boot in this fight and his trump card is a lot more haxxed and difficult to counter than Itachi's are, not to mention that Kakashi knows about Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, while Itachi doesn't know about Kamui. Itachi is a top notch ninja, but Kakashi is now on another level. Sorry.


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## ueharakk (Dec 17, 2013)

Kakashi just pulled off a kamui that instantly warped something as big as Gedo Mazou's arm.

Itachi no longer is the favorite in this fight.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

^ He also missed its head by a few hundred feet.


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## ShinobisWill (Dec 17, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> ^ He also missed its head by a few hundred feet.



Actually, he didn't.

Actually, Sasuke had taken part of the explosion.

It's right there on the Gedo Mazou's head in the panel after Kakashi activated Kamui. He only missed the head because the Gedo was teleported and moved his aim off course. And he still warped off the arm of a teleporting opponent (a teleporting opponent, let that sink in) before the opponent could get away. That's a huge speed feat in Kamui's activation.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 17, 2013)

I took it as the Gedō moving, then being kuchiyose'd away. I don't see how the kuchiyose would shift him before he disappeared. Regardless, it's plot that allowed the escape. 

The same reason Itachi didn't seal Nagato after hitting him with Amaterasu the first time.​


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 17, 2013)

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fior fior said:


> This is a rape. Kakashi warps everything that Itachi throws at him. He's also faster, stronger, and just as good when it comes to battle tactics. He has more bunshin variants and more stamina.
> 
> Kakashi outclasses Itachi in every aspect but for Genjutsu. Even so, there's no way Kakashi - who took on Obito head-to-head in a battle of solely Genjutsu - is falling for anything less than Tsukuyomi. Even Tsukuyomi is unlikely to trap Kakashi.



Kakashi would run out of chakra if he did that
From what I've seen itachi Is much faster, stronger, and has better tactics we have also never see itachi try in a fight and he rapes everyone. If itachi actually tries kakashi gets outclassed.
Kakashi has shown nothing to say he is better than itachi in anything. Part 1 should've made that clear and that only continued as time went on. You only think kakashi can win because he's a main character who has more battle time.
Kakashi got owned by tsukiyomi the same thing would happen again except this time he would kill kakashi


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## ShinobisWill (Dec 17, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Thank you for being the perfect screen capture shot of an Itachi fanboy. 

Again, thank you for your contribution.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 17, 2013)

fior fior said:


> This is a rape. Kakashi warps everything that Itachi throws at him. He's also faster, stronger, and just as good when it comes to battle tactics. He has more bunshin variants and more stamina.
> 
> Kakashi outclasses Itachi in every aspect but for Genjutsu. Even so, there's no way Kakashi - who took on Obito head-to-head in a battle of solely Genjutsu - is falling for anything less than Tsukuyomi. *Even Tsukuyomi is unlikely to trap Kakashi.*



Care to substantiate?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 17, 2013)

If the fight simply started at a closer range (like 5m), Itachi would have better chances of winning. 30m is not a good distance for him.


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## richard lewis (Dec 17, 2013)

My assessment of both characters
*Base Abilities:*
In terms of speed, reactions, stamina, strength, durability and other physical attributes both are about equal. When it comes to ninjutsu they are about equal in handseal speed, however kakashi is more versatile he has more jutsu and 3 elements as opposed to itachi who only has 2. With genjutsu itachi is superior but kakashi should be able to break/match itachi in this area given that he proved to be on par with itachi in terms of genjutsu.

*MS Abilities*
Itachi has amaterasu, susanoo, and tosukiyomi while kakashi only has kamui. however kamui is more efficient than any of itachi's individual dojutsu. 

The fight is going to come down to how well kakashi can use kamui, given the size of the targets he's warped recently I wouldn't put it past him to warp susanoo all together "or at least a very large chunk of it" leaving itachi exposed to an attack. So it boils down to amaterasu vs kamui which kamui wins in my opinion. If they both tag each other kamui kills itachi instantly where as kakashi could still teleport away the flames "or teleport himself leaving the flames behind".

It's very close but kakashi should pull a win more times than not.


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## Van Konzen (Dec 17, 2013)

kakashibeast said:


> Well Kakashi was a chunin at 6 and itachi was still in the acadamey at that age so Kakashi is on a different leage .. and Itachi soloed a part one Kakashi without MS .. Current Kakashi mastered his MS to the highest degree and has better stamina then Itachi



Itachi was Kage level at 7..


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 17, 2013)

Warping a gedo mazo arm while it was subjected to instant transportation when he was attempting a decapitation *with no prep just on a whim* is a top tier feat. When it comes down to eye prowess and powers kakashi is just gonna out-hax itachi in the end. 

Kakashi is also in itachi's ballpark when it comes to tricks and intelligence so itachi shining point are negated. Stamina of course is not in itachi's favor...man i just don't think itachi can win. Itachi cannot even trade shots with kakashi because kamui's decapatation killing>tsukyuomi's coma inducing genjutsu. Of course kakashi can avoid genjutsu with knowledge and know-how...itachi cannot avoid kamui realistically.

Kakashi wins imo now more than ever.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 18, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> Thank you for being the perfect screen capture shot of an Itachi fanboy.
> 
> Again, thank you for your contribution.



Not a fan boy itachi is better than kakashi always has been since day one


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2013)

Itachi wins this 
Kakashi was never in the same league as itachi


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## Rain (Dec 18, 2013)

Kakashi is glass cannon. 

He gets wrecked.


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## Bonly (Dec 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> With Itachi's superhuman seal speed, he can likely outpace Kakashi's jutsu like he did to Sage Kabuto.​



That was in Izanami and was done by Edo Itachi. Sick Itachi after the time skip hasn't done much in area to suggest he would outpace Kakashi's jutsu.





> You're forgetting the genjutsu Itachi cast on Naruto with his , which would provide the opening he needs to land a ciritcal hit.​



This would be assuming Naruto didn't tell Kakashi that he met Itachi and what happened, upon which I think otherwise.





> Itachi was  casting jutsu, which contrasts his weakened Edo zipping around Bee using jutsu. Kakashi has never responded to living Itachi's best.​



And Kakashi doesn't need to respond to living Itachi's best. This is living Itachi and since he wasn't stated to be healthy in OP, I'm assuming he is the same as his fight with Sasuke upon which Kakashi can respond to him quite well.



> Itachi noted his clone was out of chakra, so it wasn't tactical superiority, just logistic necessity. A nearly drained [sick?] clone doing this and requiring Naruto's assistance is notable.​



Did Kakashi or did Kakashi not feint Itachi though?



> [Resurrected, sick] Itachi's , ,  have been above current Kakashi, and living Itachi was always holding back and/or being held back.​




Those were Edo Itachi feats, not living sick Itachi feats.



> The way they're portrayed is clearly different. Itachi is superhumanly talented in fundamental skills and  1. Kakashi is a genius, but he's not at Itachi's level.
> 
> And I'm just talking about base here, naturally.



Sure they have been portrayed differently and Kakashi has been portrayed as the better of the two as of late.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Kakashi goes "I'll finish him with kamui!!!!!!" Itachi hits him with Amaterasu GG.


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## fior fior (Dec 18, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Care to substantiate?



Countless situations where it has been proven that Itachi's Tsukuyomi needs either a long prep time or is simply weak. Firstly: Sasuke broke free from it, with his half-mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan. Kakashi, who has mastered his eye to the point where it is actually _complimented_ by Madara (latest chapter), will also be able to break free in the case that he falls for Tsukuyomi.

Moreover, Nagato and Kabuto. Why didn't Itachi hit Nagato with Tsukuyomi, when it was even stated multiple times that his weakness is Genjutsu? Why was Itachi unable to hit Kabuto, even when he was immobile and looking right towards him (at the start of the fight)?

It's just not plausible to assume that Itachi will be able to hit Kakashi, and take him out of the fight, with Tsukuyomi.


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## fior fior (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi goes "I'll finish him with kamui!!!!!!" Itachi hits him with Amaterasu GG.



Whoops, it was a shadowclone! Kakashi pops out from under Itachi's feet and warps his junk away.


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## eyeknockout (Dec 18, 2013)

kotoamatsukami solos since it wasn't restricted


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 18, 2013)

Joke thread.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Kamui gg          .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Whoops, it was a shadowclone! Kakashi pops out from under Itachi's feet and warps his junk away.



whoops its a crowbunshin, crows distract Kakashi like they did to sage kabuto and Itachi ends it with a blitz. This time he has killing intent and Kakashi dies


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Rain said:


> Kakashi is glass cannon.
> 
> He gets wrecked.



Kakashi's gut was cut open by Zabuza, he continued to fight like nothing happened. Obito fucked him up and sliced his fucking chest open, Kakashi acted like it did nothing. He was stabbed by Obito, sewed it up like it was nothing.

Itachi uses his MS once and coughs blood up. He has nothing on Kakashi in durability.

Kakashi is smarter, and has the better jutsu arsenal. His MS ability CAN'T be blocked or stopped while all of Itachi's can. 

Kakashi wins 10/10 no dif.


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## Santoryu (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If the fight simply started at a closer range (like 5m), Itachi would have better chances of winning. 30m is not a good distance for him.



When Niku is saying that Kakashi is the favourite to win, you know Itachi loses.


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## batman22wins (Dec 18, 2013)

Kakashi takes this. War arc Kakashi definitely boosted his stats in everything.


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## Krippy (Dec 18, 2013)

Itachi wins with high/extreme diff. Kakashi will be able to beat him at some point in the future but not quite yet.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Itachi wins with high/extreme diff. Kakashi will be able to beat him at some point in the future but not quite yet.



Sadly, thats never gonna happen.

Kakashi neither has the hype, talent, haxx, plot relevance or aura/presence to match Itachi @ any point in the manga.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sadly, thats never gonna happen.
> 
> Kakashi neither has the hype, talent, haxx, plot relevance or aura/presence to match Itachi @ any point in the manga.



Kakashi has more hype than Itachi. 

His talent far exceeds Itachi as he has 3 affinities, mastered sharingan and obtained MS which few people have done even in the Uchiha clan, knows over 1,000 jutsu, uses genjutsu, can sense via smell and air currents, and need I go on? 

Hax? Kamui>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Every jutsu in hax.

Plot relevance? Kakashi's alive, Itachi dead. You tell me who's more relevant to the plot .

Aura and presence? What do you mean?  What aura does Itachi have?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has more hype than Itachi.


He isn't even in the same ballpark.




> His talent far exceeds Itachi as he has 3 affinities,


thats not talent.



> mastered sharingan and obtained MS which few people have done even in the Uchiha clan,


Itachi did that when he was 13.

Kakashi was shitting his pants against Orochimaru when he was 26, guess who made Oro shit his pants @ half Kakashi's age ? 




> knows over 1,000 jutsu, uses genjutsu, can sense via smell and air currents, and need I go on?


Please 



> Hax? Kamui>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Every jutsu in hax.


Kakashi has 1 hax jutsu which is highly circumstantial.
Itachi has 3 which are easier to execute and give him more versatility.




> Plot relevance? Kakashi's alive, Itachi dead. You tell me who's more relevant to the plot .


Konohomaru 



> Aura and presence? What do you mean?  What aura does Itachi have?


The aura that makes people shit their pants.

Kakashi was Akatsuki's punching bag till the last arc.


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## Ersa (Dec 18, 2013)

I think Sick Itachi and Kakashi are more or less equals at this point. However it does come down to who is more trigger happy with their MS and that is the Uchiha here. Clones can be used to counter the others one-shot (Kamui/Amaterasu), I'd probably favour Kakashi here due to distance and knowledge. Itachi works better at close range. Edo Itachi murderstomps however


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## Mercurial (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He isn't even in the same ballpark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL. Pain hypes Kakashi as fucking trouble for Akatsuki, and when fighting already with his strongest body, calls support too (Asura). Kakuzu being blitzed with stealth, speed and a strong piercing Raiton without knowing who was... the first thought was "is Kakashi". Deidara saying that beginning of Shippuden Kakashi has doujutsu on Itachi's level. Madara says that Kakashi has powerful eyes, I mean Madara. Black Zetsu speaks of Kakashi as if he was in the same ballpark of KCM Minato. LOL.

And so what? Kakashi is now a lot stronger, and also, Kakashi didn't shit his pants in front of Itachi + Kisame, or Pain, or Obito who was believed to be Madara, or Bijuu etc, so this mean that these people are less stronger than Orochimaru? It isn't even an argument.

That's ridiculous. Kakashi could counter everything that Itachi MS offers, and has knowledge, when Kakashi's MS and Kamui is uncounterable and a lot more haxxed. And Itachi doesn't even know about it. Obito knew about it, and Kakashi warped away a full human body in front of his eyes without him noticing. While Gedo Mazo was being summoned away, Kakashi could activate MS and Kamui away a full arm of the giant beast. Base Bee could throw a sword before Edo Itachi could charge and use Amaterasu. Kakashi warped a head size Rasengan in the same time that Obito made is arm intangible. C'mon.

Oh c'mon, you don't need to be a pathetic hater like the ones who hate Itachi, you shouldn't degrade yourself like this. An Itachi fan should be dign of the King, not such a delusional hater of other characters who are stronger than he is.



Kyokan said:


> I think Sick Itachi and Kakashi are more or less equals at this point. However it does come down to who is more trigger happy with their MS and that is the Uchiha here. Clones can be used to counter the others one-shot (Kamui/Amaterasu), I'd probably favour Kakashi here due to distance and knowledge. Itachi works better at close range. Edo Itachi murderstomps however



Edo Itachi doesn't change anything. Kamui GG to living Itachi, Kamui GG to Edo Itachi. The fact that the latter could spam Susanoo or Amaterasu doesn't change that if Kakashi wants to Kamui him, he will Kamui him, and Kakashi wants to Kamui him. Also being an Edo is not fair for be compared with a normal living people. If you want buffed people, compare Edo Itachi with Kakashi + Kurama chakra. And I don't think that's a good idea.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He isn't even in the same ballpark.



You wanna fucking bet. I could make paragraphs about Kakashi's hype which comes from almost everyone in the manga. Itachi has 5-6 people who hype him.



> thats not talent.



Yea it is. Kakashi said himself people struggle learning one and it take years. He has 3. He learned rasengan and created chidori when he was 13.  



> Itachi did that when he was 13.



So did Kakashi LOL.



> Kakashi was shitting his pants against Orochimaru when he was 26, guess who made Oro shit his pants @ half Kakashi's age ?



>Talking about talent.
>Talks about nothing that has to deal with talent.
>Itachifans LOL



> Please



Kakashi can use chakra flow into weapons, he has elemental bunshin's, he can open the 1st gate, etc.  



> Kakashi has 1 hax jutsu which is highly circumstantial.
> Itachi has 3 which are easier to execute and give him more versatility.



Circumstantial? As in he can use it whenever, however, and on whoever he wants to.
Quality>>>>>>Quantity.



> Konohomaru



Resort to trolling because you know Itachi's shit and isn't relevant while Kakashi is LOL.



> The aura that makes people shit their pants.
> 
> Kakashi was Akatsuki's punching bag till the last arc.



I don't ever remember Itachi making anyone shit themselves or back down from fighting him. Kakashi sent Kabuto running from him while Kabuto was confident he could beat bitch Itachi.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 18, 2013)

Yata and Totsuka combo wins it for itachi


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sadly, thats never gonna happen.
> 
> Kakashi neither has the hype, talent, haxx, plot relevance or aura/presence to match Itachi @ any point in the manga.



Kakashi is far more important to the plot than Itachi, are you kidding?


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

lol. mastering 3 nature affinities isn't talent but blinking your mecha summoning is.

dat logic.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> lol. mastering 3 nature affinities isn't talent but blinking your mecha summoning is.
> 
> dat logic.



Hey...it takes a lot of talent to cry for your powers. Do you know how hard being a bitch is?


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## Puccio (Dec 18, 2013)

Kakashi can take this extremely high diff. He would end the fight with Kamui, but that doesn't mean that he can't keep up with base Itachi.

He can. He's even better imo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You wanna fucking bet. I could make paragraphs about Kakashi's hype which comes from almost everyone in the manga. Itachi has 5-6 people who hype him.





IchLiebe said:


> Quality>>>>>>Quantity.






> Yea it is. Kakashi said himself people struggle learning one and it take years. He has 3. He learned rasengan and created chidori when he was 13.



Itachi mastered his sharingan @ 8. Had both Susano'o and Amaterasu @ 13.
I'd say Susano'O and Amaterasu are more advanced than Chidori, but hey, thats just me.



> So did Kakashi LOL.


Kakashi didn't "master" his MS when he was 13.




> >Talking about talent.
> >Talks about nothing that has to deal with talent.
> >Itachifans LOL


Your saying that being a strong shinobi has nothing to do with talent ? 

All I am saying is that, Itachi was talented enough to make someone like Oro shit his pants with just 3 tomoe sharingan when he was 13.
Kakashi had the same 3 tomoe when he was 26 and he was on the other end of the shitting pants scale.



> Kakashi can use chakra flow into weapons, he has elemental bunshin's, he can open the 1st gate, etc.


All of them are pretty basic shit. 
Do you think having more elementary stuff would put him above guys like Nagato, Madara, Minato etc ? 





> Circumstantial? As in he can use it whenever, however, and on whoever he wants to.
> Quality>>>>>>Quantity.


In this case Itachi has 3 jutsu that are more or less the same quality with Kamui that give him alot more versatility.





> Resort to trolling because you know Itachi's shit and isn't relevant while Kakashi is LOL.


I am not trolling.
Konohomaru is alive too 

That is your argument right ? 




> I don't ever remember Itachi making anyone shit themselves or back down from fighting him. Kakashi sent Kabuto running from him while Kabuto was confident he could beat bitch Itachi.


Orochimaru & Deidara.
Kakashi hasn't fought anyone of that caliber on his own.

Once Kakashi shows that he can take fighst without an army behind him, I'll add him to the big boys club.



Vice said:


> Kakashi is far more important to the plot than Itachi, are you kidding?



He never was, and never will be.




Raikiri19 said:


> LOL. Pain hypes Kakashi as fucking trouble for Akatsuki, and when fighting already with his strongest body, calls support too (Asura). Kakuzu being blitzed with stealth, speed and a strong piercing Raiton without knowing who was... the first thought was "is Kakashi". Deidara saying that beginning of Shippuden Kakashi has doujutsu on Itachi's level. Madara says that Kakashi has powerful eyes, I mean Madara. Black Zetsu speaks of Kakashi as if he was in the same ballpark of KCM Minato. LOL.


Nagato's boss hypes Itachi as the reason why he had to stay away from Konoha 

And Nagato apologizes to Itachi for causing trouble, after Itachi puts his ass inside the sake gourd. The same guy who beat Kakashi around like an infant through his proxy.

Are  you conceding that Amaterasu and Kamui are dojutsu on the same level  ? 




Also none of the things you mentioned disprove Itachi's hype and portrayal being an entirely different tier than Kakashi's .




> And so what? Kakashi is now a lot stronger, and also, Kakashi didn't shit his pants in front of Itachi + Kisame, or Pain, or Obito who was believed to be Madara, or Bijuu etc, so this mean that these people are less stronger than Orochimaru? It isn't even an argument.


Kakashi was never alone against those people.



> That's ridiculous. Kakashi could counter everything that Itachi MS offers,


No he can't, sadly.



> and has knowledge, when Kakashi's MS and Kamui is uncounterable


Sure it is.
Otherwise Kakashi would be strongest character in the manga.



> and a lot more haxxed.


Didn't you say above that Kamui and Amaterasu were dojutsu on the same level ? 




> And Itachi doesn't even know about it. Obito knew about it, and Kakashi warped away a full human body in front of his eyes without him noticing.


Maybe because there was a giant stake in front of his eyes and he was focused on fighting Naruto, didn't give two fucks about Kakashi ? 



> While Gedo Mazo was being summoned away, Kakashi could activate MS and Kamui away a full arm of the giant beast.



Kakashi couldn't even properly warp an easy target like that eventhough he was focusing on its face which was right infront of him. 
And "being summoned away" is not a process, it is instantaneous.
Whatever Kakashi did, he did it before it was summoned away.




> Base Bee could throw a sword before Edo Itachi could charge and use Amaterasu.


Because Nagato pre-empted it and warned B. And not sure what the deal was, but it had also something to do with the crow.

Because right after, he uses it pretty much instantaneously : 
this
this
this

Maybe thats how it is with the first Amaterasu of teh day lol.





> Kakashi warped a head size Rasengan in the same time that Obito made is arm intangible. C'mon.


Wut ? What does it have anything to do with it ? 
Obito saw Rasengan dissapear, he thought Naruto stopped it.




> Oh c'mon, you don't need to be a pathetic hater like the ones who hate Itachi, you shouldn't degrade yourself like this. An Itachi fan should be dign of the King, not such a delusional hater of other characters who are stronger than he is.


Pretty Ironic coming from you 


Anyways, I am not being a hater or anything, but its common to anuyone who reads the manga, that Itachi's portrayal through out the manga was on a whole other level than Kakashi's.
You might have to wipe that Kman jizz off your eyes to see it


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## ShinobisWill (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi mastered his sharingan @ 8. Had both Susano'o and Amaterasu @ 13.
> I'd say Susano'O and Amaterasu are more advanced than Chidori, but hey, thats just me.
> 
> 
> ...



The Gedo obviously moved his head enough to escape the near instant Kamui warp and lost his arm in it's place. Kakashi aimed correctly as shown in the panel after he activated it (the Gedo's head was being surrounded by Kamui), and the only reason it escaped being killed by Kamui anyway was because Madara summoned it to him to escape.  

You might not be a "hater", but you're disappointingly a huge, huge fanboy wanker of Itachi willing to discredit everyone else blindly for the sake of him. I say that with genuine sadness. 

and I even think Itachi wins this still. I don't even like Itachi that much anymore, but I agree that he has an edge power wise. What you're doing is nothing less than sheer dick riding, sadly.


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## Mercurial (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato's boss hypes Itachi as the reason why he had to stay away from Konoha
> 
> *And Nagato apologizes to Itachi for causing trouble, after Itachi puts his ass inside the sake gourd.* The same guy who beat Kakashi around like an infant through his proxy.
> 
> ...



Come on that's not hyping 

Maybe, maybe. Maybe Amaterasu is on par with Shippuden beginning Kamui... but that's a maybe. Making Deidara ose an arm, piss himself about fighting Kakashi again, saving a lot of people's life and warping away a forest sized explosion is already better than everything Amaterasu managed to do in the whole series 

"Good eyes" from Madara shits on every other Itachi hype.

Sure. Against Itachi and Kisame he had Asuma and Kurenai. Oh, I wonder why Itachi and Kisame didn't run away!

Sure he can.

Check above 

Yeah there was a distraction... well Kakashi isn't one of the greatest in the manga, if not the best, in making tricky distractions and strategies? Kamui + the guy who fooled Itachi and Pain with bushinjutsu... ohLOL (and actually Tobi was focusing on Kakashi... he even thought in himself "I must pay attention on when and where Kakashi uses Kamui" so... and let's not forget that Kakashi warped away a head sized Rasengan in the same time that Obito made his arm intangible... and activated MS and warped away the arm of fucking Gedo Mazo in the time it was summoned away... so... LOL).

You conceded that Bee can throw a sword before Edo Itachi starts Amaterasu. 

What!? Never


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## Wolfstein (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi's gut was cut open by Zabuza, he continued to fight like nothing happened. Obito fucked him up and sliced his fucking chest open, Kakashi acted like it did nothing. He was stabbed by Obito, sewed it up like it was nothing.
> 
> Itachi uses his MS once and coughs blood up. He has nothing on Kakashi in durability.
> 
> ...



Yes, Kakashi has the edge but lets not get ahead of ourselves.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Come on that's not hyping
> 
> Maybe, maybe. Maybe Amaterasu is on par with Shippuden beginning Kamui... but that's a maybe. Making Deidara ose an arm, piss himself about fighting Kakashi again, saving a lot of people's life and warping away a forest sized explosion is already better than everything Amaterasu managed to do in the whole series



Dediara didn't know about technicalities. From his perspective Kamui hasn't changed. 

Also, Kakashi wouldn't be able to do the things Itachi did to Nagato, cerebrus and the bird.
Warping away cerebrus as a whole would drain his stamina, he wouldn'T be able to follow. 

You see, you don't need a "big" Amaterasu to get the job done. Once you hit your target it spreads rapidly.
But if you want to deal with a huge target, you need to use a proportional Kamui, which requires Kakashi to allocate more chakra, makes it harder to execute.

Or Kamui would be useless against Muki Tensei, but Amaterasu flames countered the technique perfectly. 

So no, they are situations where each technique would come in handy.



> "Good eyes" from Madara shits on every other Itachi hype.


Lol, no it doesn't. Good eyes doesn't say anything specific. 

I'd say it hypes Obito more than Kakashi since it is his MS.

Or should I take KotoAmatsukami hype as Itachi hype ? 
Itachi has good eyes too 





> Sure. Against Itachi and Kisame he had Asuma and Kurenai. Oh, I wonder why Itachi and Kisame didn't run away!


He had Asuma & Kurenai, and he was in the middle of Konoha. 
And he didn't have an idea of Itachi's capabilities.
Itachi was basically an enigma @ that point.

Kakashi fights with an army @ his back, always.



> Yeah there was a distraction... well Kakashi isn't one of the greatest in the manga, if not the best, in making tricky distractions and strategies? Kamui + the guy who fooled Itachi and Pain with bushinjutsu... ohLOL (and actually Tobi was focusing on Kakashi... he even thought in himself "I must pay attention on when and where Kakashi uses Kamui" so... and let's not forget that Kakashi warped away a head sized Rasengan in the same time that Obito made his arm intangible... and activated MS and warped away the arm of fucking Gedo Mazo in the time it was summoned away... so... LOL).


I think I adressed some of the points here above.
Also can you adress my points seperately, because I have trouble following what your talking about this way.




> You conceded that Bee can throw a sword before Edo Itachi starts Amaterasu.


In one instance yes.
In other 3, no, because he used Amaterasu pretty much instantaneously.
I am pretty sure we can find low end feats for Kakashi as well.




> What!? Never



Come on, here is a napkin 



ShinobisWill said:


> The Gedo obviously moved his head enough to escape the near instant Kamui warp and lost his arm in it's place.


So Gedo statue can move his head faster than Kamui can warp. 


That brings lots of possibilities to the table. 


> You might not be a "hater", but you're disappointingly a huge, huge fanboy wanker of Itachi willing to discredit everyone else blindly for the sake of him. I say that with genuine sadness.



I'd be geniunely sad if someone really thinks that Kakashi has comparable hype/portrayal to Itachi. 
Beause I can understand when people say stuff like that because they are Kakashi fans and they are simply saying it for the sake of that.

But making a geniune comparison between the two ? 



> and I even think Itachi wins this still.



Such a good boy you are


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## ZE (Dec 18, 2013)

Here's my problem. I know that by the end of the manga Kakashi will have surpassed Itachi. I'm sure of that, but I don't know if that moment has already happened or if Kakashi will receive another power-up (Obito's right eye is there for him). 

But for now I'll just say that there's a jutsu without equal in this manga, and that's kamui. It contradicts this manga since nothing the rinnegan or higher evolutions of the sharingan have shown can touch it, but it exists, and with it Kakashi should be capable of one shotting practically everyone if PIS doesn't happen.


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## ShinobisWill (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So Gedo statue can move his head faster than Kamui can warp.
> 
> 
> That brings lots of possibilities to the table.



Maybe because Kakashi was warping something of comparable size to a Susano and warped it faster than the summoner could summon it? 



I'm pretty sure a giant has an easier time moving his head out of the way of a little tiny hole the size of a pupil than a normal sized human can, especially when Kakashi isn't taking the time to charge Kamui to warp things faster and activates Kamui pretty much instantaneously. 

Though, It's not like he lost an arm as a cost or anything, and it's not like he only survived and didn't get finished off by Kamui _anyway_ simply because Madara summoned him in time, and it's not like Kakashi takes a longer time warping larger objects than smaller ones even though he pretty much warped a gigantic arm nearly instantly in the recent chapter.

Oh wait. 





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd be geniunely sad if someone really thinks that Kakashi has comparable hype/portrayal to Itachi.
> Beause I can understand when people say stuff like that because they are Kakashi fans and they are simply saying it for the sake of that.
> 
> But making a geniune comparison between the two ?



I'm pretty sure it's only hard to understand why anyone would genuinely compare the two when you're an Itachi fan simply thinking that way for the sake of that. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Such a good boy you are



I try.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 19, 2013)

Vice said:


> Kamui gg          .



It was genjutsu the whole time tsukiyomi GG


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## Vice (Dec 19, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> It was genjutsu the whole time tsukiyomi GG



And this is exactly what Itachi sees for an eternity after he Totsuka blitzes himself once he realizes he can't escape Kamui dimension.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> Maybe because Kakashi was warping something of comparable size to a Susano and warped it faster than the summoner could summon it?



I repeat, summoning is instant. He did it before it was summoned. He didn't warp it mid summon or anything.




> I'm pretty sure a giant has an easier time moving his head out of the way of a little tiny hole the size of a pupil than a normal sized human can, especially when Kakashi isn't taking the time to charge Kamui to warp things faster and activates Kamui pretty much instantaneously.


It depends who the human is.
This chapter has shown that it is possible to physically react to Kamui, without preempting it.



> Though, It's not like he lost an arm as a cost or anything, and it's not like he only survived and didn't get finished off by Kamui _anyway_ simply because Madara summoned him in time, and it's not like Kakashi takes a longer time warping larger objects than smaller ones even though he pretty much warped a gigantic arm nearly instantly in the recent chapter.
> 
> Oh wait.


Warping off an entire explosion is still more impressive.

Something Kakashi did 400 chapters ago 







> I'm pretty sure it's only hard to understand why anyone would genuinely compare the two when you're an Itachi fan simply thinking that way for the sake of that.



I am pretty sure any objective person would know by now that Itachi is on a different level than any shinobi in the manga, except a very few.
And Kakashi isn't among them.

Kakashi never got the treatment Itachi had. Not even close.
Kakashi was never given the opportunity to shine himself, he was the Akatsuki punching bag most of the time.




> I try.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 19, 2013)

Mid-long range Kamui won't work. Anyone with Sharingan precog and decent speed can avoid that tbh. He has to use short ranged Obito style Kamui and that could end up being a trap with a crow or exploding clone.


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