# Strongest Opponent Itachi beats....



## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

Without any form of genjutsu usage while his opponent has full intel and starts @ 50+ meters distance ?​


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 19, 2014)

What kind of intel does Itachi have?


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

Itachi can have manga


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 19, 2014)

It's hard to say. 
With these disadvantages in knowledge and his own arsenal, I can still see him beating nearly any Kage-level opponent, but he'd probably fail against Minato or Tobirama more often than not. Normally, those fights can go either way, though Itachi's situation is disadvantageous in this instance.

Danzou, Muu or War-Arc Kakashi would be my choices. Whoever people deem the strongest...


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## Bonly (Nov 19, 2014)

I'd say Itachi would have a still have a good shot at beating Muu


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2014)

Probably someone like Darui or Deidara.


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

How does Darui get threw Itachi's Susano ? And how does he dodge amaterasu


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## Turrin (Nov 19, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> How does Darui get threw Itachi's Susano ? And how does he dodge amaterasu


This was asking who Itachi would beat right? So why would I be defending Darui's ability to win, when I said Itachi can beat him? Does not make sense to me.


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This was asking who Itachi would beat right? So why would I be defending Darui's ability to win, when I said Itachi can beat him? Does not make sense to me.



The other way of looking at this is why darui's level ? Meaning you think Itachi tops out here.

So you must think Darui gives Itachi a extreme-diff fight, and has me wondering what part of that fight is difficult for Itachi to push him to extreme-diff. Darui can't peirce Susano, and I doubt he can dodge Amaterasu


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 19, 2014)

I think he wants to say Itachi can 100% beat Darui with these situations while others at least stand a chance, as low as it's.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 19, 2014)

Wait, shouldn't we ban the Sword of Totsuka since it has a sealing genjutsu?


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

All genjutsu of any form ^^^^^^


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 19, 2014)

Itachi's hugely fucked here. He's good, but he's not THAT good. I'd say even Heibi Sauce could win if we nerf Itachi this much. MS Sasuke for sure though. 

Let's see, who does Itachi beat at this level...

Hmm...

...
...
...

Mizuki?
And the Rookie Part 1 Genin?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2014)

Well in BD everyone avoids eye contact and doesn't get genjutsu'd so he'd beat everyone he can normally beat I guess.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

everyone he would normally beat anyway, not seeing the point of this thread


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Because Itachi's most threatening due to his genjutsu usage. Take that away and your left with a much much weaker opponent in Itachi.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Because Itachi's most threatening due to his genjutsu usage. Take that away and your left with a much much weaker opponent in Itachi.



true but totsuka still one shots a vast amount of characters in the manga.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

Totsuka is a form of genjutsu though


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Totsuka is a form of genjutsu though



not really cast by itachi tho, unless where just restricting the sword itself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Because Itachi's most threatening due to his genjutsu usage. Take that away and your left with a much much weaker opponent in Itachi.



Dude you claim no one will fall for his genjutsu, and even if they do they can dispell it easily. And now you'r making it sound like it makes too much of a difference ? Lol that hypocrisy.


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

^^ Bro...seriously.

Were talking about MS genjutsus here, and dont be bringing up other threads into this one. 

Genjutsu is Itachi's main arsenals, its above all his other strengths.

Also I never said anyone can break his genjutsus

And restricting genjutsu's for Itachi does make a huge difference


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## Sadgoob (Nov 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Probably someone like Darui.



Itachi'd beat Darui with one kunai in one page.

@OP

He could still kill people with the Totsuka. He doesn't _have_ to seal them. Besides, the Battledome has _never_ acknowledged genjutsu to be Itachi's greatest strength despite the manga making it clear.

Or at best, they off-handedly mention that Itachi _could_ or _might_ win with genjutsu, but then go on to dissect the match as if genjutsu, or Itachi's ridiculous base skills, as non-factors. 

And then it becomes a simple opinion revolving around Ameterasu, with laughably variable feats, and the sword of Totsuka, with solid but debatable feats, and ridiculous hype. 

So in this sense, basically every thread in the Battledome with Itachi might as well be a "Itachi without genjutsu" thread. It is almost never used to justify a victory he couldn't win otherwise.​


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## JuicyG (Nov 20, 2014)

^^ I agree to some extent.

But theres a reason why Living Itachi is not that high on the tier list as well, even with genjutsu and all. Theres still plenty of shinobi who outclasses him. But my reason for this thread was to be realistic with those who want to be real with me and find who can Itachi still beat with no genjutsu. 

For me is Orochimaru being is highest


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## Sadgoob (Nov 20, 2014)

I feel living Itachi is a highly underrated ninja, and that's made clear by Ao, Nagato, and Itachi referring to Itachi's massive ability with genjutsu to be what Kabuto was keeping in reserve. 

So while all the legendary Kage and Edo ninja were being pushed forward, three ninja were held back as aces: Itachi, Nagato, and Madara. And Itachi's biggest ace was said to be mass genjutsu.

On top of that, I'm not even going to bother addressing the weapons hyped by Black Zetsu, who we learned to be a very, very knowledgeable entity about ancient powers and whatnot.

And lastly, we know the author feels that Itachi is just a superb dude in terms of having a heart of fire, and would've made an amazing Hokage, perhaps the greatest.

With these factors in mind, I find it absolutely ludicrous when people think Itachi is clearly below living Minato, Tobirama, etc. All legendary Kages, yes, but Itachi's there with them, for sure.

The dude beat a Sannin at age 11 in Kishimoto's timeline and had the wisdom of a Hokage at a ludicrously young age. He was something special. ​


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 20, 2014)

Its known to be Itachi's greatest strength but in the BD its like it doesn't apply to any of his opponents so there shouldn't be a huge difference as in most serious fights with Itachi on the BD i don't normally see it ending in genjutsu


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## LostSelf (Nov 20, 2014)

He still have Amaterasu. So everybody that cannot counter Amaterasu in most circunstances fails. I don't think he changes much, actually.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> The other way of looking at this is why darui's level ? Meaning you think Itachi tops out here.
> 
> So you must think Darui gives Itachi a extreme-diff fight, and has me wondering what part of that fight is difficult for Itachi to push him to extreme-diff. Darui can't peirce Susano, and I doubt he can dodge Amaterasu


No the problem is that there isn't anyone in between Darui "level" and the next "level". And everyone one the next "level" would beat Itachi with such huge handicaps As for how Itachi would perform against Darui, Itachi wouldn't be pushed to extreme diff by Darui he'd probably be pushed to mid diff, as I can't see him winning w/o Genjutsu and w/ Darui having full intel w/o Amaterasu or Susano'o, and since they both cause permanent damage to Itachi's eyesight and drain him substantially I can't see it as any lower than Mid-diff. But not extreme diff.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 20, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I feel living Itachi is a highly underrated ninja, and that's made clear by Ao, Nagato, and Itachi referring to Itachi's massive ability with genjutsu to be what Kabuto was keeping in reserve, along with the the Rinnegan users.​




I seriously question your experience in this forum if you think living Itachi is anywhere near underrated, let alone highly.

There are people who seriously believe he stands a chance against Edo Tensei Minato.​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 20, 2014)

Itachi is a polarizing character because of his hype and was holding back in all of his fights. Saying he isn't underrated by some is as wrong as saying he isn't overrated by some.

The reason is because Itachi's capacity was never shown. We saw his tools, but the only times we saw him "go all out" with them was against prime Nagato. (Which says something in itself.)

But he had Bee and Naruto's assistance, admittedly after taking the time to save them, to finish prime Nagato rather straightforwardly, so no true measure of a "serious Itachi" could be gauged.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 20, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I seriously question your experience in this forum if you think living Itachi is anywhere near underrated, let alone highly.
> 
> There are people who seriously believe he stands a chance against Edo Tensei Minato.


Exactly. Itachi is never underrated, he's constantly overrated and wanked. 

As for the topic, the strongest person he defeats is Orochimaru. Doesn't get any further than that. He ties with Jiraiya (his own words) and loses badly to Nagato, SM Naruto, KCM Naruto, BM Naruto, BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, SM Kabuto, Obito, Madara, Tobirama, Minato, and Hashirama.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi is a polarizing character because of his hype and typically having a reason to hold back or otherwise holding back. Saying he isn't underrated is as wrong as saying he isn't overrated.​



Every character is underrated by some people. However saying Itachi is highly underrated is laughable, when it's more accurately, there are a few people who underrate him, some people with a decent understanding of him, a large amount of people that overrate him, and a few that overrate him to an insane degree.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 20, 2014)

I would say the majority of people put living Itachi around or just below living Minato, Tobirama, Nagato, Kabuto, etc. which is correct. People that say Itachi beats Hashirama, etc. tend to be joking.​


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2014)

Totsuka Blade uses a Fuinjutsu. Even if Genjutsu is banned, it should still be able to seal, unless we're restricting that too.

Anyway, the 3rd Raikage would be my bet. Clone feint + Amaterasu.


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I would say the majority of people put living Itachi around living Minato, Tobirama,​


Overrated



> Kabuto, Nagato


Overrated; bordering on extremely overrated  (definitely if Kabuto has Edo-Tensei).



> anybody that says Itachi beats Hashirama,


Extremely Overrated



> base Jiraira


Underrated



> 3rd Raikage or the 2nd Mizukage, etc. are serious.
> 
> And you have got to be high to truly believe that Kishimoto would ever let any of those dudes beat his portrayed E-touch.


Overrated

That's how it breaks down


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## Sadgoob (Nov 20, 2014)

Nah, you just underrate him, which is well known.

And I overrate him, which is well known.​


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2014)

Healthy Itachi on the same level as Minato, Tobirama, and Sage Kabuto is plenty fair. And it's completely true that he decimates the 3rd Raikage and Gengetsu (individually) as well.


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)

You have turds who think Tsunade or Gaara can beat healthy Itachi, or the borderline stupid kids who think they even stand a hint of a chance against his Edo Tensei counterpart. I don't believe he's necessarily underrated but he is far from overrated either.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2014)

Anyone who says Tsunade or Gaara beats Itachi is retarded. Do we really even need to address that?


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)

Niku, you just offended half the forum.

Enjoy your ban.

ck


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## Turrin (Nov 20, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Nah, you just underrate him, which is well known.
> 
> And I overrate him, which is well known.​


Nope I rate him properly. I don't think Base-Jiraiya is beating him as people who underrate him do, but I don't think he's stepping to characters that he blatantly needed help against such as Nagato or Kabuto. He falls right alongside most Kage-class fighters (sans the weakest ones), albeit he's overall better than most of them, especially in his Edo-Form, but could still loose to all of them depending on conditions and plot. And that's precisely where he should be rated, as he lacks the displays to push him any higher than that. Which is exactly the same thing i'd say about Minato (living), Tobirama, Jiraiya, Prime-Hiruzen, Onoki (post-stone will), Tsunade (depending on the quanity of Byakugou chakra), MS-Obito, and Sandaime-Raikage (maybe?).


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2014)

Fuck the other half of the forum too then. ck

Itachi soloes.


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## Ersa (Nov 20, 2014)




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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^ Bro...seriously.
> 
> Were talking about MS genjutsus here, and dont be bringing up other threads into this one.
> 
> ...



Again, I'll repeat what I said. 
You and others think everyone can avoid eye contact, and if they can't and fall for genjutsu, they can dispell it easily.

From your point of view, genjutsu isn't a game breaker in BD. Why pretend like it is now ?


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^ I agree to some extent.
> 
> But theres a reason why Living Itachi is not that high on the tier list as well, even with genjutsu and all. Theres still plenty of shinobi who outclasses him. But my reason for this thread was to be realistic with those who want to be real with me and find who can Itachi still beat with no genjutsu.
> 
> For me is Orochimaru being is highest



Whoa now. I'm not putting Genjutsu-less Itachi anywhere NEAR Orochimaru. Remember, Orochimaru was part of Akatsuki. Yes, in canon Itachi was superior with his MS Genjutsu abilities. But you're taking away all Genjutsu against a healthy Oro? 

Yeah, Oro's gonna have a great fucking day today because he gets to kill Itachi and get a pair of Sharingan eyes, quite used of course, but in somewhat usable condition.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 21, 2014)

Itachi is  often underrated by people like Turin, juicy, transcendent, eiuya,liebe,sayianman

People who rate him fair are people like, rocky, urehakk,  bonly, ice gaze,  and I don't think itachi is there favorite



I mean juicy literally makes a itachi thread everyday with hopes to downplay him
The itachi supporters normally attempt to provide a argument as to why they feel he wins, I would like to think I don't overrate him either.




I don't know the history of this forums but honestly these days he's downplay and underrated more then he is over rated.



 when you have people saying shyt like Sakura can beat kcm naruto I don't want to here itachi is  wanked.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Which is exactly the same thing i'd say about Minato (living), Tobirama, Jiraiya, Prime-Hiruzen, Onoki (post-stone will), Tsunade (depending on the quanity of Byakugou chakra), MS-Obito, and Sandaime-Raikage (maybe?).



I don't see how we disagree on his relative level then, other than me believing that Tsunade and Sandaime Raikage don't belong in that group. I'd also specify Sage Jiraiya.​


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## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2014)

So basically this is Itachi Hater vs Itachi Fandom? 

Also I lol'd how people who said that Itachi is overrated downplay him with Yasaka being explosive tag-level, Amaterasu can be countered by Kawarimi or Genjutsu being easily countered.

Sometimes double-standard are a bitch, since most of the people who "overrate" Itachi is joking.


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## JuicyG (Nov 21, 2014)

I don't down play Itachi at all.

I said genjutsu-less Itachi still tops out around Orochimaru level

I said Edo Itachi beats any and every form of Jiraiya, and that SM jman is 50/50 with living itachi

Ive put Living Itachi almost even with living Minato


Itachi supporters will claim that everyone is down playing him the second someone provides a different argument opposing their own even with verifiable reasons. Itachi is not a king, he tops out at high tier with edo form. Living Itachi is about mid-high kage level. Overrating him is putting him above these levels, underrating him is putting him below these levels....Itachi is wanked harder (as a group of people) than any other character in the series on NBD, only followed by Hussains wank of Minato and Ich's wank of kakahsi


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## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2014)

Except for Itachi vs Sound 4 amirite? ck


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## JuicyG (Nov 21, 2014)

^^^^ The conditions I set in that fight months ago made it closer than what it obviously would be


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## Hachibi (Nov 21, 2014)

Except pretty much everyone knew that no matter the condition Itachi would roll over them.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see how we disagree on his relative level then, other than me believing that Tsunade and Sandaime Raikage don't belong in that group. I'd also specify Sage Jiraiya.​


Here's the points I think we disagree on. 

1) I think that Nindaime-Mizukage "level" characters can beat Itachi depending on circumstances, even if Itachi odds are better overall.

2) I don't think any of those guys (though I guess a case could be made for MS-Obito at certain points), are on the same "level" as Nagato or Kabuto, unless Kabuto doesn't have Edo-Tensei in which case it makes it a bit more debatable.

3) Jiraiya is just on that "level" period.

4) Sandaime Raikage and Tsunade w/ Max (she showed in the manga) Byakugou chakra are more debatable than they are being made out to be.


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## Rocky (Nov 21, 2014)

Tsunade belongs in that group if Jiraiya does, because there isn't much of a difference between the two. Sandaime Raikage as well, because I'd place Gyuki (his equal) in that tier too, which is one tier below Kurama and other top tiers.

Itachi just has a very diverse arsenal which allows him to exploit the weaknesses of one dimensional fighters that can't overpower him quickly....like Tsunade and A #3. That would apply to Minato and Tobirama too, but Itachi would have difficulties hitting them and his taxing arsenal doesn't appreciate wasted techniques, thus the 50/50.

Turin is generally correct on where he's placing characters imo, except that Obito with both eyes is Top Tier. Characters like Minato could struggle with Sandaime Raikage, and Itachi with Mu, so even though I see the "prodigies" being superior ninja, they're all on a level where conditions and match ups play a major part.


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

Huh, I was talking about 1 MS obito.


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## ZE (Nov 21, 2014)

I think there are some characters, like Jiraiya, who despite not being on Itachi's level, can beat him, but I certainly wouldn't include Muu and the second Mizukage in that group. 

The way I see it, their abilities are easily countered by Itachi; namely chakra vision and anti-genjutsu eyes. By having those, Itachi would counter the enemies strongest abilities without breaking a sweat. I know that the notion that the sharingan can see through Muu and the Mizukage's mirage isn't a popular one, but that's how I prefer to see it considering the hype the three great dojutsus got. The byakugan is another tool that would spot both IMO.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 21, 2014)

ZE said:


> I think there are some characters, like Jiraiya, who despite not being on Itachi's level, can beat him, but I certainly wouldn't include Muu and the second Mizukage in that group.
> 
> The way I see it, their abilities are easily countered by Itachi; namely chakra vision and anti-genjutsu eyes. By having those, Itachi would counter the enemies strongest abilities without breaking a sweat. I know that the notion that the sharingan can see through Muu and the Mizukage's mirage isn't a popular one, but that's how I prefer to see it considering the hype the three great dojutsus got. The byakugan is another tool that would spot both IMO.



also considering madara beat onoki and mu at the same time i agree with your post.


mu at the very least should have gotten the chance to go invincible with onoki as back up, and it seemed to not work on madara


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## Rocky (Nov 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Huh, I was talking about 1 MS obito.



Okay       .


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## Turrin (Nov 21, 2014)

ZE said:


> I think there are some characters, like Jiraiya, who despite not being on Itachi's level, can beat him, but I certainly wouldn't include Muu and the second Mizukage in that group.
> 
> The way I see it, their abilities are easily countered by Itachi; namely chakra vision and anti-genjutsu eyes. By having those, Itachi would counter the enemies strongest abilities without breaking a sweat. I know that the notion that the sharingan can see through Muu and the Mizukage's mirage isn't a popular one, but that's how I prefer to see it considering the hype the three great dojutsus got. The byakugan is another tool that would spot both IMO.


Sharingan can see through Clam-Gen and Mu's Invis, given their mechanics in the DB. However that doesn't meant they could never beat Itachi. If Itachi couldn't counter those abilities he'd be fucked, so it's more like he doesn't get low diff'd by them as oppose to if he could not counter those abilities.

Anyway both are still more than credible threats to him, as he is too them (though more so in his case). Even though he can see through the Clam's Genjutsu, he probably won't do so instantly (as Sasuke w/ MS didn't see through Shi's Genjutsu instantly), so that give Mizukage an opening in a no knowledge scenario, just like Itachi could have an opening with his Genjutsu against Mizukage in a no knowledge scenario. Itachi has the edge if they start up close because he can activate his illusion faster than the Mizukage, while the Mizukage has the edge if they start at a larger range, because his illusion covers a larger distance. But both could survive if they activate their defenses fast enough (Susano'o and Suika no jutsu). If they do both survive each others opening gambits (ether due to activating their defenses fast enough or having knowledge) than Mizukage is more than capable of duking it out with Itachi due to Suika no Jutsu, even Amaterasu will be countered by Mizukage liquifying his skin to shed the flames. Joki Boi also enables Mizukage to attack Itachi w/o having to worry about Genjutsu anymore and would quickly force Itachi to use Susano'o to defend.

From there Itachi's odds of winning become better as Susano'o's higher stages can protect him from Joki Boi, while he can overcome Suika no Jutsu w/ Totasuka sealing the Mizukage. But Itachi still needs to be able to find Mizukage, who hides himself while using Joki Boi, before his stamina can no longer sustain Susano'o. As far as that goes, the difficulty of which comes down to the battlefield. Itachi would probably get him eventually on many battlefields, but there are still quite a few battlefields where this would become more difficult, and some where Mizukage could pull out a win.

Itachi's better overall, but saying Mizukage looses decisively every time is a bit much.

In Mu's case, Itachi can counter his Invis w/ Sharingan, unless he's especially tricky, but Mu's sensing enables him to avoid Genjutsu unless Itachi is especially tricky and will even help him to defend against Amaterasu to a certain extent. Additionally between flight and all of his nature alterations he should be more than capable of taking on Itachi in a Ninjutsu exchange and avoiding Taijutsu exchanges. From there it basically becomes Amaterasu, Magatama, and Totsuka are dangerous, but so is Jinton, and body splitting gives Mu one get out of jail free card, that can also enable him to ambush Itachi, when Itachi believes he's dead, depending on the surrounding environment. So Mu maintains being very dangerous to Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 21, 2014)

Itachi/Minato/Tobirama

>

A3

>

Muu/Gengetsu/Jiraiya/Orochimaru


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## Ersa (Nov 21, 2014)

ET Itachi/Minato/Tobirama > Sickly Itachi >= SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru >=< Naruto's clone whipping boys.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 21, 2014)

Jplaya's Itachi > Edit Itachi > Prime Itachi > Healthy Itachi >= Edo Itachi >= Minato > Tobirama >= Sick Itachi > SM Jiraiya > Oro


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## ZE (Nov 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi/Minato/Tobirama
> 
> >
> 
> ...



This is not entirely wrong, but both SM and edo tensei change where Oro and Jiraiya might stand.

So 
It can go from Itachi/Minato/Tobirama>>Jiraiya/Oro
to
Itachi=Minato=Tobirama=SM Jiraiya=Oro with edos

Personally, I'd put SM Jiraiaya on the same tier as Tobirama, with both being above the kages (Muu, third Raikage etc.) and bellow the likes of Minato, Itachi, Nagato, MS one-eyed Obito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 21, 2014)

Why would Itachi be above Sage Mode Jiraiya? He and Jiraiya are equals as the manga says. Itachi has never been on the same level as Minato, Tobirama nor Nagato, that's a vast overestimation of his power.


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## Jagger (Nov 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Totsuka is a form of genjutsu though


That's just stupid, IMO. While it is true that the person is caught inside the bottle and put inside an eternal dream, it's a side-effect of the Totsuka sword. Regardless of the genjutsu or not, it doesn't change the fact Itachi can slice them or just seal them permanently.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) I think that Nindaime-Mizukage "level" characters can beat Itachi depending on circumstances, even if Itachi odds are better overall.



Yeah, I definitely see more of a gap than you do, which is mainly because of the 3rd Raikage's defeat. Muu, I believe to have been pointed out as the special one among the Edo Kage though.​


Turrin said:


> 2) I don't think any of those guys (though I guess a case could be made for MS-Obito at certain points), are on the same "level" as Nagato or Kabuto, unless Kabuto doesn't have Edo-Tensei in which case it makes it a bit more debatable.



Yes, I definitely meant Kabuto without Edo Tensei. And also, if we're talking about a prime healthy Nagato with Gedou Mazo and Pain next to him, then you're right, he's in a class above.

I suppose when I said Kabuto and Nagato, I was referring to Kabuto without Edo Tensei and Pain (rather than Nagato.)​


Turrin said:


> 3) Jiraiya is just on that "level" period.



But we've really only seen base Jiraiya stalemate Animal Realm. I can, however, understand the viewpoint of people who think Jiraiya would generally be capable of getting in Sage Mode.

I think the difference between the two can be seen in Nagato's reverence of each. He really wasn't impressed with base Jiriaya in the slightest, but gave Sage Jiriaya a very steep compliment.​


Turrin said:


> 4) Sandaime Raikage and Tsunade w/ Max (she showed in the manga) Byakugou chakra are more debatable than they are being made out to be.



Eh, Madara really only seemed impressed with Onoki among the Gokage, and Muu was the one among the Edo Kage to be highlighted as practically unbeatable. But I do think you're reasonably here.

But in the end, our opinions really aren't that different, huh? I basically just see more of a gap between that key group than you do, and exclude a few admittedly debatable ninja.​


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, I definitely see more of a gap than you do, which is mainly because of the 3rd Raikage's defeat. Muu, I believe to have been pointed out as the special one among the Edo Kage though.​


I don't really see anything wrong with Sandaime-Raikage's defeat. The odds were extremely stacked against him. Dat-Clone had back up of an entire unit including Dodai who appears to be quite skillful himself, had the intel advantage, and Sandaime-Raikage was handicapped by both Kabuto controlling him as well as lacking the Amber-Seal-Jar. I believe you take away any single one of these circumstances and Sandaime would have decimated Dat-Clone. So I really wouldn't judge Sandaime based on that fight, but rather based on his abilities and his other performances. In terms of abilities he has a defense capable of withstanding attacks much more powerful than FRS, has an attack much more powerful than FRS (Hell Stab), has the strongest of Rikudou's Treasure tools, among other powerful abilities. As for displays he forced a draw with the Hachibi and he took on a 10k strong army for 3 days. 



> Yes, I definitely meant Kabuto without Edo Tensei. And also, if we're talking about a prime healthy Nagato with Gedou Mazo and Pain next to him, then you're right, he's in a class above.
> 
> I suppose when I said Kabuto and Nagato, I was referring to Kabuto without Edo Tensei and Pain (rather than Nagato.)


I'm talking about any version of Nagato. Any version is above that "level" by a large margin. Kabuto (w/o Edo) i'm fine with, but he's certainly towards the top of that level, if not thee strongest if we place him there. 



> But we've really only seen base Jiraiya stalemate Animal Realm. I* can, however, understand the viewpoint of people who think Jiraiya would generally be capable of getting in Sage Mode.*
> 
> I think the difference between the two can be seen in Nagato's reverence of each. He really wasn't impressed with base Jiriaya in the slightest, but gave Sage Jiriaya a very steep compliment.


That's what I'm basing it on. 



> Eh, Madara really only seemed impressed with Onoki among the Gokage, and Muu was the one among the Edo Kage to be highlighted as practically unbeatable. But I do think you're reasonably here.


He was hold Tsunade to Hashirama standard though, which is a problem. With that said Tsunade didn't have her max Byakugou chakra in that fight anyway, I think if she did her performance would have been the best among the Gokage or at least matched Onoki's.



> But in the end, our opinions really aren't that different, huh? I basically just see more of a gap between that key group than you do, and exclude a few admittedly debatable ninja.


Seems like it, except I think where we differ majorly is Sandaime-Raikage and Nagato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why would Itachi be above Sage Mode Jiraiya? He and Jiraiya are equals as the manga says. Itachi has never been on the same level as Minato, Tobirama nor Nagato, that's a vast overestimation of his power.



Because a highly questionable statement made 10 years ago, when neither Jiraiya or Itachi were properly developed, which doesn't correlate with Itachi or Jiriaya's hype, portrayal and most importantly feats, is perfectly dismissable @ this point. Just like the statement of Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 22, 2014)

ZE bro, what boosted your opinion of Itachi haha?​


Turrin said:


> I don't really see anything wrong with Sandaime-Raikage's defeat. The odds were extremely stacked against him. Dat-Clone had back up of an entire unit including Dodai who appears to be quite skillful himself, had the intel advantage, and Sandaime-Raikage was handicapped by both Kabuto controlling him as well as lacking the Amber-Seal-Jar. I believe you take away any single one of these circumstances and Sandaime would have decimated Dat-Clone. So I really wouldn't judge Sandaime based on that fight, but rather based on his abilities and his other performances. In terms of abilities he has a defense capable of withstanding attacks much more powerful than FRS, has an attack much more powerful than FRS (Hell Stab), has the strongest of Rikudou's Treasure tools, among other powerful abilities. As for displays he forced a draw with the Hachibi and he took on a 10k strong army for 3 days.



That's a pretty fair argument, actually. Depending on how intelligent the Raikage was in battle, I'd agree with you. He should be aware of his own weakness after scarring himself. 

That would make him basically impossible to put down for most ninja that would exploit his own weapon, and combined with Darui's black lightning and the pot for ranged attacks... 

This is an argument I rarely see or even think about. Yeah, I agree with you and put him in the debatable category now lol.​


Turrin said:


> Seems like it, except I think where we differ majorly is Sandaime-Raikage and Nagato.



Well you convinced me about the 3rd being debatable, so I'll prod the Nagato difference. Just to be clear, you think crippled Nagato or Pain are still a clear tier above?

Then again, I guess I can accept that considering the overwhelming power of the Gedou, CT, and CST techniques. I just tend to weigh his lack of mobility more heavily against him.

After all, it basically means that if he cannot absorb or deflect a technique, then he's going to get hit by it. In a situation where his legs are fully functioning for evasion, he's a different beast.​


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 22, 2014)

tbh, I don't think there's an entire tier's difference worth of power between itachi minato or tobirama. There maybe differences but those differences aren't of a magnitude to warrant a different tier imo. I think the problem is they should all be lower and Nagato should be in that tier alone. 

Itachi Minato Tobirama maybe perhaps closer to Nagato within the context of a 1on1 match, but in terms of what they've done(and what they can do) I think Nagato is clearly on or at least approaching a different order of power.  Nagato's killed thousands of people in Konoha and then revived thousands of people in Konoha. He destroyed Konoha, then destroyed a mountain range worth of area with CT after, then was implied he could make a second CT and destroy another mountain range worth of area.

Nagato is just capable of impacting change and effect on a much broader spectrum than them atleast from my interpretation of the manga. Granted, I can better understand if he's placed with minato itachi and tobirama within a 1v1 context(which I think he's still superior).
There should also be a massive gap between Nagato and Hashi/Mads above him. I just don't think he's comparable at all with those that come after him.


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## ZE (Nov 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> ZE bro, what boosted your opinion of Itachi haha?
> ​




The end of the manga, I guess. 
Now that the manga has ended, it's easier to look at the story as the way the author intended. It becomes easy to interpret Kishi's intentions when he created certain characters and how strong those characters were supposed to be. 

I think that with time people's opinions will converge on this matter and Itachi will be seen as strong as he was meant to be, just like SJJ2 Gohan is seen by everyone as being weaker than Majin Vegeta in dragon ball (among other examples). When dragon ball z was still being published, I'm certain that some had the opinion Gohan was stronger, but time puts everything in its place.​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 22, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> tbh, I don't think there's an entire tier's difference worth of power between itachi minato or tobirama. There maybe differences but those differences aren't of a magnitude to warrant a different tier imo. I think the problem is they should all be lower and Nagato should be in that tier alone.
> 
> Itachi Minato Tobirama maybe perhaps closer to Nagato within the context of a 1on1 match, but in terms of what they've done(and what they can do) I think Nagato is clearly on or at least approaching a different order of power.  Nagato's killed thousands of people in Konoha and then revived thousands of people in Konoha. He destroyed Konoha, then destroyed a mountain range worth of area with CT after, then was implied he could make a second CT and destroy another mountain range worth of area.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you said here, and I expect this is what Turrin would respond with. So you can save your breath, Turrin. Lol.​


ZE said:


> The end of the manga, I guess.
> Now that the manga has ended, it's easier to look at the story as the way the author intended. It becomes easy to interpret Kishi's intentions when he created certain characters and how strong those characters were supposed to be.
> 
> I think that with time people's opinions will converge on this matter and Itachi will be seen as strong as he was meant to be, just like SJJ2 Gohan is seen by everyone as being weaker than Majin Vegeta in dragon ball (among other examples). When dragon ball z was still being published, I'm certain that some had the opinion Gohan was stronger, but time puts everything in its place.



Very true. Everybody has kind of mellowed haha.​


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

*BM Minato > KCM Minato = ET Tobirama > ET Itachi*


Minato and Itachi are only on the same tier and level when talking about living versions of each. Once we start speaking of ET versions they are a complete tier difference


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *BM Minato > KCM Minato = ET Tobirama > ET Itachi*
> 
> 
> Minato and Itachi are only on the same tier and level when talking about living versions of each. Once we start speaking of ET versions they are a complete tier difference



im not even going to argue itachi with you, but how could you figure Kcm Minato = tobirama????


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## Turrin (Nov 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> That's a pretty fair argument, actually. Depending on how intelligent the Raikage was in battle, I'd agree with you. He should be aware of his own weakness after scarring himself.
> 
> That would make him basically impossible to put down for most ninja that would exploit his own weapon, and combined with Darui's black lightning and the pot for ranged attacks...
> 
> This is an argument I rarely see or even think about. Yeah, I agree with you and put him in the debatable category now lol.​


Yeah I mean if he's a total idiot when fighting for himself, than he'd probably be lower, but I'd like to give a long standing elderly Raikage the benefit of the doubt that his battle smarts are above average, let alone moronic, until proven otherwise.



> ust to be clear, you think crippled Nagato or Pain are still a clear tier above?


I don't really distinguish a difference between Pain and Nagato. Pain Rikudou is just Nagato's Jutsu, after all. So both crippled-Nagato and Edo-Nagato I consider a clear tier above those characters.



> Then again, I guess I can accept that considering the overwhelming power of the Gedou, CT, and CST techniques. I just tend to weigh his lack of mobility more heavily against him.
> 
> After all, it basically means that if he cannot absorb or deflect a technique, then he's going to get hit by it. In a situation where his legs are fully functioning for evasion, he's a different beast.


Nagato also has summons (including Mazou), Shuradou modifications, Tendou flight, shared vision, and sensing to make up for his lack of maneuverability.

Let's be honest any attack that can get past that, physical evasion isn't making a difference (unless Nagato was suppose to be some BM-Naruto, Gated-Gai "level", etc... physical beast) . I know when he was defeated by Naruto, B, and Itachi, Kabuto implies greater mobility would have made a difference there, but that wasn't a single technique that was the concerted effort of three incredibly powerful individuals, and even then I wonder had Kabuto been aware of Nagato's sensing if that would have been a difference maker as well. After-all the implication seems to be that since Nagato's vision got cut off by Itachi taking out shared vision with his shuriken jutsu and the dust cloud of Chibaku-Tensei collapsing, that by the time he saw the Totsuka blade it was too late to activate Jutsu, but maybe if he was more mobile he could have created more distance between him and his attackers after Chibaku Tensei was destroyed. However it seems to me that with sensing he could have also detect the danger and while he couldn't put distance between himself and the others, he could have probably activated a Jutsu in time like Shinra-Tensei, Summon Meat Shield, or Fujutsu Kyuuin. 

I mean just to give a quick run down of the top dogs of the Itachi and company "tier":

Minato and Tobirama's Hiraishin is deadly, but I just see it being countered the same way B managed to. Shared vision would give Nagato view of his blind-spots and when those two try to blitz him he'd just use Tendō to deflect any physical attack (greatly injuring Minato or Tobirama in the process) and Gakidō to take care of any chakra based attack like Rasengan or Suitons, as well as using Chikushōdō to pull out a summoning meat shield. His flight and chamouflage via various Chikushōdō summons would also make it very difficult for Minato or Tobirama to get Tags near him in the first place. Even for Hiraishin users Shuradō's and Tendō's offensive abilities are not easy to deal with as well as any summon that Chikushōdō's Zoufuku Kuchiyose no Jutsu is applied to, which Tobirama lacks an ability to deal with and Minato would need high-order Fuuinjutsu to deal with (if not Shiki Fuujin), and due to Ningendō's and Jigokudō's abilities Nagato only needs to touch them once and it's GG. That's w/o even getting into Nagato's higher end abilities, and just speaking towards the "lower-end" 6-Path Techniques, and who has the knowledge advantage (which would be Nagato).

I guess Prime-Hiruzen out of all of them with his absolutely massive plethora of Jutsu would have the best bet to metagame around the "lower-end" 6-Path Techniques utilizing the perfect combinations to overcome each one. But that would only enable him to actually get Nagato to be serious enough to utilize one of the "higher-end" Tendou techniques or Gedou techniques (depending on the incarnation), which I don't think he has the necessery raw might to contend with; or if he can muster that power for one clash by utilizing many KB to boost his offensive or defensive output, I don't think he will be able to pull something like that off, and than continue to fight an enemy capable of spamming the "lower-end" 6 Path techniques after that, let alone the fact that Nagato can use repeated uses of the "higher-end" abilities. 

Jiraiya would perhaps have the best triumph card to employ against Nagato via Frog-Song, but against Nagato I don't find Jiraiya reaching Sennin Modo and prepping the Song very realistic, even in a scenario where Jiraiya has the knowledge advantage (he could do it against Pain perhaps, with extremely biased conditions, but if this is the Nagato w/ Pain, than Jiraiya has only beaten Nagato's Jutsu and he's pretty much screwed after that). 

As far as Itachi himself is concerned, I have serious (like really really serious) doubts that Dojutsu-Genjutsu (on the Mangekyo "level", even from Itachi) would work against someone who has Uchiha-Madara's eyes, but on the off chance he is susceptible to it he still has a myriad of ways of avoiding eye-contact through exploiting the shared vision mechanic and his sensing capabilities (and if this is the Nagato with Pain-Rikudo, I find it totally useless). Amaterasu is dealt with via Gakidō or Tendō. S4 Susano'o could push him a bit, but I don't see him needing anything beyond combinations of the "lower-end" 6 Path abilities to deal with it. Tendō can deflect or Chikushōdō can meat shield the Totsuka sword, Gakidō can absorb everything else, while Shuradō can be used for the finishing blow.  Again that's without really needing to go to the "higher-end" abilities, Bashou Tennin can't rip him out of Susnao'o, and assuming Totsuka also can't be absorbed by Gakidō for whatever reason.

Simply put, I have issues seeing how a single member of Tobirama/Minato/Itachi class (bar maybe Prime-Hiruzen via hype) can get through the "lower-end" 6 Path abilities, but if that's all Nagato showed it would be a bit more debatable whether he's on that "tier" or not (Just at the very top of it), but the problem is I don't see any of them really being able to ether reach or stand up against for very long Nagato's "higher-end" abilities.

I place Nagato more in the BM-Naruto, Edo-Minato, Danzo, Killer-B Tier, with BM-Naruto and Edo-Minato being the top of that "tier", Nagato being around the upper-middle, and Killer-B and Danzo being at the very bottom.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> That's just stupid, IMO. While it is true that the person is caught inside the bottle and put inside an eternal dream, it's a side-effect of the Totsuka sword. Regardless of the genjutsu or not, it doesn't change the fact Itachi can slice them or just seal them permanently.



Well whether you think its stupid or not. I restricted all forms of genjutsu....soooo



Bkprince33 said:


> im not even going to argue itachi with you, but how could you figure Kcm Minato = tobirama????




ET Tobirama tagged Juuobito....that was amazing, check that scene out again


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 22, 2014)

People who beat Itachi pretty badly:
Naruto
Sasuke
Madara
Obito
Kabuto - with edo

People who will defeat Itachi but wont do it easily:
Tobirama
Minato
Nagato
Kabuto - no Edo

People who are on par if not slightly superior:
Kakashi
Gai - 7 gates
Mu
Onoki
Danzo
Izuna - hype of course
Shisui - hype of course

People who are on par or slightly below:
Jiraiya
Orochimaru - depending on which Edo Tensei you give him
Raikage(s)
Gaara - Depends on location
trollkage


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

^
No one cares about your shitty tier list, stop posting it.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

@ Grimm

Why the hate ?


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> No one cares about your shitty tier list, stop posting it.



As opposed to your trolling got it


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## Dominus (Nov 22, 2014)

ZE said:


> Tobirama being above Jiraiya's level would mean he'd be in the tier right bellow Hashirama/Madara tier. The gap between Hashirama/Madara and Tobirama is way too large for him to be that close to their tier.
> 
> Demi-gods: Hashirama/Madara/BSM Naruto/EMS Sasuke with PS/Rinnegan Obito
> The closest men to the Gods: Nagato/Itachi/MS Obito/Minato
> Tobirama's tier should be the one after this one



Itachi, Minato, Obito (MS) and Tobirama are all in the same tier in my opinion.

Minato (Edo Tensei) > Nagato > Minato (alive) >= Itachi (Edo Tensei) ~ Tobirama ~ Obito (MS) >= Itachi (alive)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Grimm
> 
> Why the hate ?



No hate. Just stating the facts.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Itachi, Minato, Obito (MS) and Tobirama are all in the same tier in my opinion.
> 
> Minato (Edo Tensei) > Nagato > Minato (alive) >= Itachi (Edo Tensei) ~ Tobirama ~ Obito (MS) >= Itachi (alive)




This right here is correct in my opinion


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## Nikushimi (Nov 22, 2014)

ZE said:


> Tobirama being above Jiraiya's level would mean he'd be in the tier right bellow Hashirama/Madara tier. The gap between Hashirama/Madara and Tobirama is way too large for him to be that close to their tier.
> 
> Demi-gods: Hashirama/Madara/BSM Naruto/EMS Sasuke with PS/Rinnegan Obito
> The closest men to the Gods: Nagato/Itachi/MS Obito/Minato
> Tobirama's tier should be the one after this one



At that point I would just put Tobirama in the same tier with Nagato, Itachi, Obito, and Minato.

Just depends where you want to draw the lines, since it's all relative.

As long as we're in agreement that Hashirama > Tobirama > Jiraiya then I don't see a problem.



Complete_Ownage said:


> People who will defeat Itachi but wont do it easily:
> Tobirama
> Minato
> Nagato
> Kabuto - no Edo



Itachi beat Nagato and Kabuto.

He could beat anyone on this list, and vice-versa; it all depends on the circumstances, which is why it would be more appropriate to just say they are all generally the same level.



> People who are on par if not slightly superior:
> Kakashi
> Gai - 7 gates
> Mu
> ...



In no universe are Muu and Oonoki on par with Itachi, let alone superior. He stands head and shoulders above those two; they're more comparable to guys like Deidara and Sasori--the high-grade Kage killers. By far the weakest two shinobi in this cluster.

Izuna has zero hype, so how he ended up here merits some serious explanation.

Gai with only 7 Gates isn't penetrating Susano'o before he runs out of steam. Kakashi either gets raped stupidly hard or if it's double-MS Rikudou Kakashi then the tables are turned and multiplied.

Danzo gets the condescending headpat while he chases butterflies in Izanami.

Shisui is the only one who actually deserves to be here, and that's up for debate.



> People who are on par or slightly below:
> Jiraiya
> Orochimaru - depending on which Edo Tensei you give him
> Raikage(s)
> ...



Yeah Itachi can defeat these guys with little trouble. He already did it twice, in Orochimaru's case. Edo Tensei makes zero difference because the guy will lose his hands before he can use it ("All your Jutsu are meaningless"). Same goes for the others.

Itachi's peers are guys like Tobirama, Minato, Nagato, and Kabuto. They're all a notch above the likes of the Sannin or the four Edo Kage or the five Kage or Danzo. Like I told the other guy, it just depends where you want to draw the line, which is up to personal discretion. But Itachi can toss someone like Orochimaru's salad in ten seconds flat so I really don't think there's any doubt about him being in the next tier up.


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## Rocky (Nov 22, 2014)

Itachi has zero chance of outlasting Gai with Susano'o. Both Hachimon and Susano'o produce the same after effects on the body, but Gai's stamina is in a different tier than 2.5/5 Itachi. Seriously, I think Gai fought in the 8th Gate for longer than we've seen Itachi hold Susano'o. 

Oh, and Itachi didn't beat Nagato or Kabuto by himself, or at all as a living person, but I guess cases can be made for Kabuto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 22, 2014)

I've always seen Itachi a tier below the likes of Tobirama, Minato, and Nagato. After all, even when buffed up he needed LOTS of help against Nagato who wasn't even controlling his own actions and got blindsided by Nagato's chameleon + Shinra Tensei blast. 

He and Jiraiya have always been portrayed as near equals, Jiraiya hell got a bit of an upgrade in the Databook even (Frog Katas which Itachi has no defense against).


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi has zero chance of outlasting Gai with Susano'o. Both Hachimon and Susano'o produce the same after effects on the body, but Gai's stamina is in a different tier than 2.5/5 Itachi. Seriously, I think Gai fought in the 8th Gate for longer than we've seen Itachi hold Susano'o.
> 
> Oh, and Itachi didn't beat Nagato or Kabuto by himself, or at all as a living person, but I guess cases can be made for Kabuto.



It's not like he needed help against Kabuto. Sasuke joined on his own will and forced Itachi to go to save him multiple time.


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## Rocky (Nov 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> It's not like he needed help against Kabuto. Sasuke joined on his own will and forced Itachi to go to save him multiple time.



Itachi by himself would have lost at Mugen Onsa or surprise bisection.

Though it may have gone differently if Itachi could actually kill Kabuto, which is why I said a case could be made.


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi by himself would have lost at Mugen Onsa or surprise bisection.
> 
> Though it may have gone differently if Itachi could actually kill Kabuto, which is why I said a case could be made.



True, but the former because of the location and the latter because Itachi lowered his guard.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> .Itachi beat Nagato and Kabuto.
> 
> He could beat anyone on this list, and vice-versa; it all depends on the circumstances, which is why it would be more appropriate to just say they are all generally the same level.



Beat Nagato with the help of two perfect Jinchūriki plus kabutos shit control
Beat Kabuto with the help of EMS Sasuke. Granted this match was more of a chess game since both parties had seperate agendas

I don't think Itachi makes this list in his living form. Everyone on this list either has years of expereince fighting uchihals,intell on his abilites, superior doujutsu or jutsus that troll Itachis aresenal(which all of them do)





> In no universe are Muu and Oonoki on par with Itachi, let alone superior. He stands head and shoulders above those two; they're more comparable to guys like Deidara and Sasori--the high-grade Kage killers. By far the weakest two shinobi in this cluster.
> 
> Izuna has zero hype, so how he ended up here merits some serious explanation.
> 
> ...



1) Both Muu and Oonoki would be on par with Itachi. Jinton + flight makes them insanly hard to deal with to your average kage level shinobi. Throw in Muus invisibility then 90% of Shinobi have no way to track him. Mu and Onoki would shit all over Sasori and Deidara

2) Izuna has decent amount of hype. Damn  near Tobiramas equal and was Madaras brother after all. Granted Tobirama had years of growth after killing Izuna

3) Everything points to Shisui being superior to Itachi however as I stated that could be meaningless hype. Example Hiruzen




> Yeah Itachi can defeat these guys with little trouble. He already did it twice, in Orochimaru's case. Edo Tensei makes zero difference because the guy will lose his hands before he can use it ("All your Jutsu are meaningless"). Same goes for the others



Itachi is not defeating this class of shinobi with "little" trouble. If anything they can all push Itachi to his limits besides the Raikages who I think Itachi would crush simply do fighting style



> Itachi's peers are guys like Tobirama, Minato, Nagato, and Kabuto. They're all a notch above the likes of the Sannin or the four Edo Kage or the five Kage or Danzo. Like I told the other guy, it just depends where you want to draw the line, which is up to personal discretion. But Itachi can toss someone like Orochimaru's salad in ten seconds flat so I really don't think there's any doubt about him being in the next tier up.



Nothing in the manga indicates "liivng" Itachi being on par with the likes of Minato, Tobirama, Nagato or Kabuto. I will consider Edo Itachi on that level though

Itachi sits comfortably on the tier with the Sannin, Muu, onoki, trollkage, kakashi(non Rikodu power), Gai(non 8th gate). He is obviously at the uper end of the spectrum in this group


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 22, 2014)

Did Nikushimi honestly claim Itachi defeated Nagato and Kabuto on his own despite the manga showing the opposite?


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

SM Kabuto > Living Itachi


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## LostSelf (Nov 22, 2014)

I think Itachi's level is below Nagato, in the same tier with Minato and Tobirama, if not a bit lower. I think he beats those past kages (Mu, Sandaime (this one is debatable) and trollkage more times than not.

P.D: Isn't Majin Vegeta notably stronger than Gohan?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 22, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I think Itachi's level is below Nagato, in the same tier with Minato and Tobirama, if not a bit lower. I think he beats those past kages (Mu, Sandaime (this one is debatable) and trollkage more times than not.
> 
> P.D: Isn't Majin Vegeta notably stronger than Gohan?


Itachi's below Minato and Tobirama. He's never gotten the same level of hype as they had, and his feats are below what they've done. Minato in one battle defeated Obito, while Itachi had years...and had to rely on a after death trap that failed.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Minato also beat that Obito in the mist of everything that was going on and without knowledge on the kamui which is just awesome

EoS Gohan was far above Majin Vegeta btw


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

Eos and still the most talked about character, gotta love the king


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Itachi is the most questionable character when it comes to placing him on the tier list


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi is the most questionable character when it comes to placing him on the tier list



Mostly because he is hated by many


Most reasonable people see itachi on the same tier list as minato, tobirama, nagato and one ms obito


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi is the most questionable character when it comes to placing him on the tier list


Even though it shouldn't be that hard.


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

anyone around Hebi Sasuke is his limit if it comes to "solo"
with help however it may vary depending on who's helping him.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

i find it hilarious that the ones who low ball itachi's level are general the ones who can never provide a convincing arguement


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

no one can make an argument against itachi's fans. Whenever you give them a proof, it's 

1- He's lying
2- it's a retcon. 
3- Kishi and his manga/Databook are wrong, and "we" are the right ones. 

you can only say "ok, as you wish" or simply ignore it. Otherwise, itachi's level is clearly stated in the manga.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> no one can make an argument against itachi's fans. Whenever you give them a proof, it's
> 
> 1- He's lying
> 2- it's a retcon.
> ...



On hussain whatever you say bud


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

thank you.

Jiraiya solos. U_U


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain being Hussain isn't surprising.

Anyways, Itachi is still on Minato/Tobirama tier.


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Hussain being Hussain isn't surprising.
> 
> Anyways, Itachi is still on Minato/Tobirama tier.



Why would I be anyone but myself? 


Tobirama is a little below Darui's level, as he got his ass handled to him by Kin/Gin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Hussain being Hussain isn't surprising.
> 
> Anyways, Itachi is still on Minato/Tobirama tier.


Why? Itachi has never been compared to Minato nor Tobirama in the manga. Itachi himself directly compares himself to Jiraiya. Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?


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## Puppetry (Nov 22, 2014)

Minato, Killer Bee, Tobirama and others roughly around that tier, I suppose. It all depends where you draw the line. I personally see Pain as part of the upper edge of this tier and Nagato above them.

This is if we're talking about Itachi's general placement, which is what this thread has devolved to. Taking the OP's stipulations into consideration, I don't know. Hebi Sasuke/Deidara/Kisame, perhaps? _Genjutsu_ was ineffective against him, and Itachi still won.


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why? Itachi has never been compared to Minato nor Tobirama in the manga. Itachi himself directly compares himself to Jiraiya. Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?



Your effort is in vain. Actually, even Tobirama himself, his comparison to Minato, has ALWAYS been to point out that he is inferior to him.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 22, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why? Itachi has never been compared to Minato nor Tobirama in the manga. Itachi himself directly compares himself to Jiraiya. Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?



Maybe because he bested a sanin level opponent with 3t genjutsu 


Itachi then almost fights jiraiya and concludes him and kisame would only stalement base jiraiya.

We then find out itachi was spying on akatsuki and is really konoha's ally


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Maybe because he bested a sanin level opponent with 3t genjutsu
> 
> 
> Itachi then almost fights jiraiya and concludes him and kisame would only stalement base jiraiya.
> ...



thank you for proving my point in that second post. U_U
Now you know why it's useless to make an argument with itachi's fans.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Minato & Tobirama are above Itachi's general level, especially if were talking about Edo versions. Hussian might seem like a wank, but at least he continues to provide canon reason behind his statements like above


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Why would I be anyone but myself?







> Tobirama is a little below Darui's level, as he got his ass handled to him by Kin/Gin.



>Implying it was a legit fight




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why? Itachi has never been compared to Minato nor Tobirama in the manga. Itachi himself directly compares himself to Jiraiya. Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?



By your logic, Itachi was being compared to Hashi.

Also we all knew that has been presented as a treat to MS Obito


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Minato & Tobirama are above Itachi's general level, especially if were talking about Edo versions. Hussian might seem like a wank, but at least he continues to provide canon reason behind his statements like above



So basically you believe Tobirama to be below Darui?


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

> [=Hachibi;52301629]


What an idiotic nonsense. Kakashi said that Naruto surpassed the Hokages, was he trolling because the Hokages are their ally? Who said you must be an enemy to take your inferiority in consideration? 

Deidara stated that Sasori is stronger than him, does that mean he's not in the Akatsuki but was saying that to protect Sakura and Chiyo? 



> >Implying it was a legit fight



more pathetic excuses. How sad.
They fought him twice, and they defeated him in BOTH times. 
The first time he had the Raikage as Back up, and the second time with his students.

From where you came up with you nonsense that it's not a legit fight?


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

> "As for the decoy, of course, I will go. You all are, from here on, the young wills of fire that will protect the village." (Volume 51, Chapter 481)
> Surrounded by the Kinkaku squad, Tobirama volunteers himself to be the decoy.
> For the sake of protecting his subordinates, as Hokage, he entrusts the village to the next generation and dies a noble death.
> 
> ...



It's astonishing how people want to deny anything no matter what proofs they have. Especially you, Hachibi, you remind me of a verse.


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> What an idiotic nonsense. Kakashi said that Naruto surpassed the Hokages, was he trolling because the Hokages are their ally? Who said you must be an enemy to take your inferiority in consideration?
> 
> 
> Deidara stated that Sasori is stronger than him, does that mean he's not in the Akatsuki but was saying that to protect Sakura and Chiyo?



Incomparable situations are incomparable.



> more pathetic excuses. How sad.
> They fought him twice, and they defeated him in BOTH times.
> The first time he had the Raikage as Back up, and the second time with his students.
> 
> From where you came up with you nonsense that it's not a legit fight?



So, tell me: What happened during both fight if you know them better than I do?


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> So basically you believe Tobirama to be below Darui?



Huh ?

I never said I agreed with EVERYTHING he says. But I'm not going to sit here and demean him like a lot of you guys do, he's just making his points.


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Huh ?
> 
> I never said I agreed with EVERYTHING he says. But I'm not going to sit here and demean him like a lot of you guys do, he's just making his points.



That's because he believe that Minato can solo Juubito


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

> [=Hachibi;52301690]Incomparable situations are incomparable.



denial at its best




> So, tell me: What happened during both fight if you know them better than I do?





*Spoiler*: __ 










takl's translation


> -the 1st panel
> Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?
> -the 2nd
> Darui: I'm sorry that you are embarrassed. Kinkaku sama, Ginkaku sama, the 2 of you are famed as 'the two glitters in kumo'.
> ...





> Ginkaku: its sucks...that we, who fucking floored the 2nd hokage are under his justu...dont u think, Kinkaku?
> 
> Tsunade: I know that they wielded the 5 ninja tools called Rikudoh sages treasures
> and that they cornered the 2nd hokage into a moribund condition, but...
> 9bs chakra... I haven't heard that they had it...





> A: They are the worst and biggest criminals ever in kumogakures history.
> A: the brothers pulled off a coup at the grave ceremony to form an alliance with Konoha and played the 2nd Raikage and the 2nd Hokage foul.





> lord ig: we're beset.. ....the enemy are... 20
> Judging from this tracking skill, they are ...of kumogakure...the kinkaku team of experts.



2- That girl with them said it's too much for them. So, Kin and his fodders > Tobirama and his students

3- He died. 



> "As for the decoy, of course, I will go. You all are, from here on, the young wills of fire that will protect the village." (Volume 51, Chapter 481)
> Surrounded by the Kinkaku squad, Tobirama volunteers himself to be the decoy.
> For the sake of protecting his subordinates, as Hokage, he entrusts the village to the next generation and dies a noble death.



you must be really lacking to think after all this shit, Kishi was trying to portrayed Tobirama as superior to them.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> True, but the former because of the location and the latter because Itachi lowered his guard.



Personally, I don't think he would have lost in either scenario, rather he merely took Sasuke's presence into account in moving through those challenges.

There was a clear window of action when Tayuya emerged and became playing her flute, to which someone with Itachi's background and knowledge would identify that is genjutsu.

Now, assuming that the method he used was Sasuke was the only counter Itachi was aware of, which is debatable, that would still provide plenty of time to make a clone and use the strategy.

As for the bisection, I believe that was simply Itachi baiting Kabuto inward so that he could close the loop. He did, after all, need Kabuto to take Sasuke's sword from him and whatnot.

There wouldn't really be a reason for him to otherwise lower his Susano'o and then say "Now Izanami is complete. It's over." It was bait, in my opinion, and it was allowed him to close the loop.​


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi's below Minato and Tobirama. He's never gotten the same level of hype as they had.



Now we both know that's just plain not true. Itachi's hype is practically insurmountable in the manga from: Hashirama, Hiruzen, Obito, Black Zetsu, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Danzou, etc. 

In terms of feats, however, you have a better point, but one also has to acknowledge that Itachi never had the chance to go all out in a one on one battle with anybody, so it's inconclusive.

However, given that Kishimoto matched him up with Nagato and Sage Kabuto in the end, two individuals with immunity to Itachi's specialty, should speak volumes about the type of ninja he is.​


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> denial at its best



Not a very convincing argument.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You still didn't answer my question, you're just talking about the result or the cause of the fight, not what happened *during the fight.*


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

I don't care what happened during the fight. I do care that he fought them more than once, and he lost even with pack up. You don't need to have a high IQ to know that he's weaker than them. Even his student said they are too much for them even BEFORE the fight begin, so it really wouldn't change much how the fight goes.  

What happened during the fight is they floored him as Ginkaku said. Just because you chose to ignore, that does not change what happened. Period. 

If you have an argument from the manga/Databook bring it on! 

simple. 

anyway, return to itachi. He is not beating Tobirama. We know that Tobirama is superior to him, in almost everything. Ninjutsu, Chakra, intelligence...etc
and he already defeated a MS user as well.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 22, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?



I don't know, man. 

You have to remember that Itachi was the one who taught Naruto what it means to be Hokage, and that Hiruzen was amazed by how quickly Itachi understood what it meant to be one.

And then there was Sasuke, in the end of the manga, comparing Itachi to Naruto and saying that Itachi should have been made Hokage instead of being hung out to dry by the village he saved.​


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I don't know, man. You have to remember that Itachi was the one who taught Naruto what it means to be Hokage, that Hiruzen said Itachi was thinking like a Hokage as a child.
> 
> Also, Sasuke believed Itachi served as the village's true Hokage. That is, he incorporated the _Ho_ or fire, with a warrior's will, along with the _Kage_ or shadows, from which he operated to protect the village.​



I believe it was Iruka who told him that first though. U_U

Also, the battle with Naruto was to prove Sasuke wrong.


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## Jagger (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> thank you.
> 
> Jiraiya solos. U_U


Even despite Itachi himself clearly said "Everyone is bound to have a weakness" which obviously includes the likes of Jiraiya? Not to mention the circumstances were not going in favour for Itachi and Jiraiya since they could not make Naruto anymore silently. 

Gai coming to the scene is another proof of that. Those two together might (or Gai alone could have done it depending on how much he was going to risk for Naruto and Sasuke) defeated the Akatsuki pair.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 22, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why? Itachi has never been compared to Minato nor Tobirama in the manga.



A direct comparison doesn't need to be made. That's why we have these Battledome threads.



> Itachi himself directly compares himself to Jiraiya.



Itachi never compared himself to Jiraiya; he only said what the outcome would be if they fought one time.



> Why is Itachi _constantly_ put at Hokage level when nothing in the manga supports that notion?



Tsunade is a Hokage. Old Hiruzen is a Hokage.

Yes, Itachi is Hokage-level.



Rocky said:


> Itachi has zero chance of outlasting Gai with Susano'o. Both Hachimon and Susano'o produce the same after effects on the body, but Gai's stamina is in a different tier than 2.5/5 Itachi. Seriously, I think Gai fought in the 8th Gate for longer than we've seen Itachi hold Susano'o.



Gai cannot maintain the Gates longer than Itachi can maintain Susano'o. He literally got off two major attacks against Kisame after chasing him down, before the fight was over. His fight with Madara was barely a chapter of non-stop attacking and then another chapter of build-up and execution of Night Gai. All Itachi has to do is stand there and literally sustain Susano'o, which is nowhere near as taxing.



> Oh, and Itachi didn't beat Nagato or Kabuto by himself, or at all as a living person, but I guess cases can be made for Kabuto.



Itachi did the vast majority of the work against both.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I've always seen Itachi a tier below the likes of Tobirama, Minato, and Nagato. After all, even when buffed up he needed LOTS of help against Nagato who wasn't even controlling his own actions



Nagato was buffed, too; both were Edo Tensei, yet Nagato was actually restored to his prime by B's Hachibi chakra.



> and got blindsided by Nagato's chameleon + Shinra Tensei blast.



Itachi blindsided Nagato three times in that fight, if we're keeping score.



> He and Jiraiya have always been portrayed as near equals, Jiraiya hell got a bit of an upgrade in the Databook even (Frog Katas which Itachi has no defense against).



Frog Katas aren't strong enough to do anything to Itachi except knock him down.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Beat Nagato with the help of two perfect Jinchūriki plus kabutos shit control



They helped him destroy Chibaku Tensei, which 1) wouldn't have finished Edo Itachi anyway and 2) Nagato got a chance to use precisely because Itachi was busy saving his useless tag-alongs.



> Beat Kabuto with the help of EMS Sasuke. Granted this match was more of a chess game since both parties had seperate agendas



Itachi was the one who actually defeated Kabuto while Sasuke stood around sucking his dick. He had no knowledge of Kabuto's abilities and wasn't allowed to kill or seal him, so having Sasuke there to bail him out when Kabuto got the upperhand twice is fair.



> I don't think Itachi makes this list in his living form. Everyone on this list either has years of expereince fighting uchihals,intell on his abilites, superior doujutsu or jutsus that troll Itachis aresenal(which all of them do)



Years of experience fighting scrub Uchiha won't prepare anyone for Itachi and the guy has his own Jutsu that are capable of taking any one of them out. For Nagato, it's the Totsuka Blade. For Kabuto, it's Izanami and the Totsuka Blade. For Minato and Tobirama, it's Tsukuyomi. Itachi has plenty of his own experience and is hailed above all others for his ability to read enemy intentions in battle. It wouldn't be proper to consider only their advantages.



> 1) Both Muu and Oonoki would be on par with Itachi. Jinton + flight makes them insanly hard to deal with to your average kage level shinobi. Throw in Muus invisibility then 90% of Shinobi have no way to track him.



Amaterasu, GG. Or Genjutsu, GG. Itachi literally one-shots them, provided they start at a reasonable distance with a fair intel distribution. That shit he pulled with the crow clone and cutting off Sage Kabuto's horn would result in decapitation for these two, who don't have nearly the same speed or reaction time.



> Mu and Onoki would shit all over Sasori and Deidara



Sasori can Zerg Rush them both with poisoned puppets and Deidara's got C4. They are all very close in strength and all of them can fly, but Sasori and Dei have a bit more nuance to their attacks than just "HURR DURR, ENERGY BEAM," which is really fucking conspicuous.



> 2) Izuna has decent amount of hype. Damn  near Tobiramas equal and was Madaras brother after all. Granted Tobirama had years of growth after killing Izuna



Getting killed by a younger Tobirama and being Madara's brother isn't nearly enough hype to put him on Itachi's level or above.



> 3) Everything points to Shisui being superior to Itachi however as I stated that could be meaningless hype. Example Hiruzen



Nothing points to Shisui being superior to Itachi. We know next to nothing about Shisui's abilities outside of a few specific Jutsu.



> Itachi is not defeating this class of shinobi with "little" trouble. If anything they can all push Itachi to his limits besides the Raikages who I think Itachi would crush simply do fighting style



Yeah I would really like to see Gaara push Itachi to his limits after getting scrubbed by an underprepared Deidara on his home turf.

Or hell Orochimaru for that matter. I would love to see Round 3 of that.



> Nothing in the manga indicates "liivng" Itachi being on par with the likes of Minato, Tobirama, Nagato or Kabuto. I will consider Edo Itachi on that level though
> 
> Itachi sits comfortably on the tier with the Sannin, Muu, onoki, trollkage, kakashi(non Rikodu power), Gai(non 8th gate). He is obviously at the uper end of the spectrum in this group



Edo Itachi is just a living Itachi that doesn't get tired and regenerates from damage. He'd perform at the same level, but for a limited period of time and his performance would start to decline sharply after a while. He still poses all the same threats, though.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Did Nikushimi honestly claim Itachi defeated Nagato and Kabuto on his own despite the manga showing the opposite?



Itachi did defeat them on his own, even if he had help a few times while fighting them before that. In Kabuto's case, he only needed help because he didn't know Kabuto's abilities going into that fight and he wasn't allowed to just Totsuka blitz.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Even despite Itachi himself clearly said "Everyone is bound to have a weakness" which obviously includes the likes of Jiraiya? Not to mention the circumstances were not going in favour for Itachi and Jiraiya since they could not make Naruto anymore silently.
> 
> Gai coming to the scene is another proof of that. Those two together might (or Gai alone could have done it depending on how much he was going to risk for Naruto and Sasuke) defeated the Akatsuki pair.



- Yes, and that's weak point is women for Jiraiya, which is why itachi used a woman to make Jiraiya go away, so he can kidnap Narudo. 

- I don't get what you're trying to say honestly there. @_@
Are you trying to say that itachi and Kisame knew that Gai was coming? 
and they also knew about his full power?


----------



## Jagger (Nov 22, 2014)

I think they knew that destroying a building could attract unwanted attention here. Not to mention to we're not completely sure of whether Itachi knew of Jiraiya's true potential and he let himself be guided by the 'hype' (for the lack of a better term) surrounding the Sannin.

Itachi knew, at least, that Gai is a very capable shinobi regardless of his careless personality, the former was that kind of person to never underestimate his opponents. Gai and Jiraiya together is a powerful team, no one can deny so. Had Gai opened the last gate, he would have oblirated both Itachi, Kisame and a good portion of the area as well. 

Did Itachi know this? Likely not given Dai died before Itachi was born and there's no other Gate user in the village besides Gai that never opened them. Was Itachi smart enough their plan to capture Naruto was going badly? Yes.


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## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

-They were not even in konoha, and I don't think anyone even knew where were they going to begin with. In addition, at that point itachi had already fought Oro, so he obviously was not relying on hype.

- Yes, but they did not know about Gai to begin with. 



> Was Itachi smart enough their plan to capture Naruto was going badly? Yes.



I don't know what do you mean here, there is something seems to be messing! 
Also, itachi does not care about Naruto at that point, he's the same guy who told Sasuke to kill him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't know what do you mean here, there is something seems to be messing!
> Also, itachi does not care about Naruto at that point,* he's the same guy who told Sasuke to kill him. *



Scans ?
10 char


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Nov 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> They helped him destroy Chibaku Tensei, which 1) wouldn't have finished Edo Itachi anyway and 2) Nagato got a chance to use precisely because Itachi was busy saving his useless tag-alongs.



Except Itachi would be crushed in a pile of rocks....Kishi made it perfectly clear it took the teamwork of three of them to defeat Nagato. Doesn't get much clearer




> Itachi was the one who actually defeated Kabuto while Sasuke stood around sucking his dick. He had no knowledge of Kabuto's abilities and wasn't allowed to kill or seal him, so having Sasuke there to bail him out when Kabuto got the upperhand twice is fair.



If it wasn't for his edo tensei form and the help of Sasuke he wouild have died numerous times before izanami 




> Years of experience fighting scrub Uchiha won't prepare anyone for Itachi and the guy has his own Jutsu that are capable of taking any one of them out. For Nagato, it's the Totsuka Blade. For Kabuto, it's Izanami and the Totsuka Blade. For Minato and Tobirama, it's Tsukuyomi. Itachi has plenty of his own experience and is hailed above all others for his ability to read enemy intentions in battle. It wouldn't be proper to consider only their advantages.



Scrub Uchiha? It has been mentioned numerous times that MS was common back then. Hell Tobirama has seen Enton: Kagu-tsuchi before suggesting someone had Amaterasu back then.

Kabuto: Sage Art: White Rage + Senpō: Muki Tensei = dead itachi GG
Minato & Tobirama = FTG GG

I can make up shit too




> Amaterasu, GG. Or Genjutsu, GG. Itachi literally one-shots them, provided they start at a reasonable distance with a fair intel distribution. That shit he pulled with the crow clone and cutting off Sage Kabuto's horn would result in decapitation for these two, who don't have nearly the same speed or reaction time.



Jinton GG...I can keep doing this too


Sasori 





> can Zerg Rush them both with poisoned puppets and Deidara's got C4. They are all very close in strength and all of them can fly, but Sasori and Dei have a bit more nuance to their attacks than just "HURR DURR, ENERGY BEAM," which is really fucking conspicuous.



Sasori & Deidara both fodder level to mu & onoki




> Yeah I would really like to see Gaara push Itachi to his limits after getting scrubbed by an underprepared Deidara on his home turf.



While protecting the village...Gaara is literally a walking counter to Itachi. Genjutsu & Amatersu get trolled and given enough time Gaara can rip Itachi out of Susanoo



> Or hell Orochimaru for that matter. I would love to see Round 3 of that.



We already know how the plays out without Edo Tensei 




> Edo Itachi is just a living Itachi that doesn't get tired and regenerates from damage. He'd perform at the same level, but for a limited period of time and his performance would start to decline sharply after a while. He still poses all the same threats, though.



Seriously? Yes thats not a HuGE ADVANTAGE


----------



## Trojan (Nov 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Scans ?
> 10 char



Don't feel like searching for it. 
it's when he told him to kill his best friend. (aka = Narudo)


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

If someone is actually trying to support Itachi > Nagato....please stop because we both know that isn't far from true.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 22, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Personally, I don't think he would have lost in either scenario, rather he merely took Sasuke's presence into account in moving through those challenges.
> 
> There was a clear window of action when Tayuya emerged and became playing her flute, to which someone with Itachi's background and knowledge would identify that is genjutsu.
> 
> ...


I don't think these should be the arguments for Itachi, as they stray way to far away from what actually transpired. As soon as Kabuto used Sakon no souma Jutsu Itachi and Sasuke relied on each other heavily to survive. If anything the argument shouldn't be that Itachi wouldn't have lost in that scenario, but rather that the scenario was only possible due to the power of Edo-Tensei, so perhaps w/o Edo-Tensei Itachi could still have a chance.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> -They were not even in konoha, and I don't think anyone even knew where were they going to begin with. In addition, at that point itachi had already fought Oro, so he obviously was not relying on hype.


Because the three Sannin share the same kind of fighting style and knowledge than the other? That's an important factor to consider. That wasn't a 1v1, bro. It was a free-for-all where everyone was going to get involved.



> - Yes, but they did not know about Gai to begin with.


You say Itachi didn't know about Gai's existence? Highly doubtful. Maybe Kisame didn't, but that's because he was a foreigner to the village, so there's that. 

I'm pretty sure Itachi was smart enough to know Gai is a shinobi that should not be messed with.



> I don't know what do you mean here, there is something seems to be messing!
> Also, itachi does not care about Naruto at that point, he's the same guy who told Sasuke to kill him.


I'm not saying whether Itachi cared for Naruto or not, but that the secrecy of their plan went to hell.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Don't feel like searching for it.
> it's when he told him to kill his best friend. (aka = Narudo)



Itachi told Sasuke that he needed to kill his best friend to unlock MS. Naruto wasn't Sasuke's best friend @ that time.

So again, when did Itachi tell Sasuke to kill Naruto ?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Gai cannot maintain the Gates longer than Itachi can maintain Susano'o. He literally got off two major attacks against Kisame after chasing him down, before the fight was over.



That would be because Kisame lost in two moves, not becaus Gai tired that quickly. 




> His fight with Madara was barely a chapter of non-stop attacking and then another chapter of build-up and execution of Night Gai. All Itachi has to do is stand there and literally sustain Susano'o, which is nowhere near as taxing.



Please, Ribcage Susano'o had Sasuke crying on the floor at the summit. There is nothing supporting the fact that Gai in the sixth or seventh Gate will run out of steam before Itachi is a later stage Susano'o will.

Nothing.



> Itachi did the vast majority of the work against both.


Against Kabuto maybe, but Nagato? No.

The only reason Itachi could even hit Nagato with anything is due to openings created by Naruto and B in some shape or form.


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## JuicyG (Nov 23, 2014)

Itachi's fight with Nagato was completely team dependent. There was no way he would have beat Nagato in a 1v1 match. In fact those who are saying Itachi fight on KCM Naruto's level of speed is also forgetting that Naruto was a clone there and that they were also having a casual conversation. Naruto was just engaging Itachi enough to gain some information since Itachi's body was not moving on his own. If Naruto wanted too, he could have completely overwhelmed Itachi there especially since he wasn't using Susano.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi's fight with Nagato was completely team dependent. There was no way he would have beat Nagato in a 1v1 match. In fact those who are saying Itachi fight on KCM Naruto's level of speed is also forgetting that Naruto was a clone there and that they were also having a casual conversation. Naruto was just engaging Itachi enough to gain some information since Itachi's body was not moving on his own. If Naruto wanted too, he could have completely overwhelmed Itachi there especially since he wasn't using Susano.



outside of breaking ct what else did naruto and bee do to nagato? aside from power him up?




naruto and itach had a simple taijutsu exchange nothing more nothing less, naruto made no remark to bee when bee attempted to finished itachi with a blindside samehada swing, and naruto understands all the properties of edo tensei, thus would have no reason to hold back against a zombie in a simple taijutsu bout.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

B and Naruto distracted Nagato allowing Itachi to ambush him and than provided the power necessary to beat Chibaku-Tensei. Without ether of those things Itachi looses.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> B and Naruto distracted Nagato allowing Itachi to ambush him and than provided the power necessary to beat Chibaku-Tensei. Without ether of those things Itachi looses.



Bee attempted to attack a distracted Nagano the same way, only difference is out of the three itachi, found a way around shared vision.



I do agree ct would beat itachi tho.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 23, 2014)

Nagato wasn't actively looking, sensing, or locating Itachi at any time during that exchange. Kabuto thought Itachi had that ability and thus it was lost when Itachi was lost, but in all actuality Nagato had the ability to, Kabuto just didn't know how to effectively use Nagato.

Nagato floors any form of Itachi, and that includes ET(if CT is un-restricted of course, but he can still seal him inside the Gedo).



There is alot of people Itachi can lose to. Just a notable one from the many- Konohamaru. he uses reverse harem justu to distract then floors him from behind with a rasengan GG.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Nagato wasn't actively looking, sensing, or locating Itachi at any time during that exchange. Kabuto thought Itachi had that ability and thus it was lost when Itachi was lost, but in all actuality Nagato had the ability to, Kabuto just didn't know how to effectively use Nagato.
> 
> Nagato floors any form of Itachi, and that includes ET(if CT is un-restricted of course, but he can still seal him inside the Gedo).
> 
> ...



he wasn't actively looking for bee either, that has nothing to do with my point.
Out of the three, itachi beat cerberous, neutralized the summons with kunais, released bee and naruto from nagato's grasped with susano, helped break ct, and sealed him with totsuka.

naruto and bee, helped break ct.




if you wanna call it a team effort kool, but itachi was obviously the mvp on that team as he did everything naruto and bee did plus alot more that's all im saying.


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## Turrin (Nov 24, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Bee attempted to attack a distracted Nagano the same way, only difference is out of the three itachi, found a way around shared vision.
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree ct would beat itachi tho.


B attacked when two path abilities were being used to deal with Naruto and w/o knowledge of shared vision or Nagato's other path abilities. Itachi attacked while 4 path abilities were being used to deal with B and Naruto, and with knowledge of how shared vision worked as he just saw it used against B. Gee I wonder why Itachi was more successful.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2014)

^
Because he is smarter and more resourceful and more skilled.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi's fight with Nagato was completely team dependent. There was no way he would have beat Nagato in a 1v1 match. In fact those who are saying Itachi fight on KCM Naruto's level of speed is also forgetting that Naruto was a clone there and that they were also having a casual conversation. Naruto was just engaging Itachi enough to gain some information since Itachi's body was not moving on his own. If Naruto wanted too, he could have completely overwhelmed Itachi there especially since he wasn't using Susano.



Yo, that wasn't a Naruto clone, that was the real thing there from what I remember.


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## Turrin (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Because he is smarter and more resourceful and more skilled.


Yeah the fact that he had greater intel due to B's ambush and Nagato was already dealing with two other individuals by the time he attempted his counts for nothing


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah the fact that he had greater intel due to B's ambush and Nagato was already dealing with two other individuals by the time he attempted his counts for nothing



I think Nagato dealing with 1 or 2 is irrelevant here, as Itachi ambushed him by cutting off his shared vision link. Nagato didn't see him coming, thats why he wasn't able to react.

You may argue that B didn't have knowledge on shared vision, but no one told Itachi about it either, he learned about it by observing. With that said, B wouldn't be able to replicate what Itachi did even if he had knowledge.


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## Patrick (Nov 24, 2014)

Genjutsu is a big part of his arsenal, but his strongest jutsu Amaterasu and Susano'o are still there. 

So guys like A, Onoki and Jiraiya would probably still be beatable, but I'm not entirely sure.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Patrick said:


> Genjutsu is a big part of his arsenal, but his strongest jutsu Amaterasu and Susano'o are still there.
> 
> So guys like A, Onoki and Jiraiya would probably still be beatable, but I'm not entirely sure.



Susano'o is there, but it's gimped. The only thing it can do is block, or crush someone to death. Oh, and the magatama, forgot about those. And that's about it. It's not very viable for Itachi to waste outside of using it as a quick defense. And Itachi would have no answer to SM Jiraiya, A, or Oonoki actually, who would Crush him with Frog Song, Particle Beams, and Liger Bombs. And Sasuke had trouble tracking Ei, I don't see Itachi having an easier time with it.


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## Patrick (Nov 24, 2014)

Hmm then I'd say he'd beat Kisame at best.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Patrick said:


> Hmm then I'd say he'd beat Kisame at best.



I'd arguably say that given what we saw Kisame do, Kisame against a Genjutsu-less Itachi would be the WORST person for Itachi to face. The only thing that Itachi has over Kisame is Amaterasu which Samehada HATES. Otherwise, Kisame's gigantic Shark-tsunami will gobble up any Chakra based moves that Itachi slings, and Drown the Uchiha.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Susano'o is there, but it's gimped. The only thing it can do is block, or crush someone to death. Oh, and the magatama, forgot about those. And that's about it. It's not very viable for Itachi to waste outside of using it as a quick defense. And Itachi would have no answer to SM Jiraiya, A, or Oonoki actually, who would Crush him with Frog Song, Particle Beams, and Liger Bombs. And Sasuke had trouble tracking Ei, I don't see Itachi having an easier time with it.


Lol'd.

Totsuka oneshots everyone you mentioned. Amaterasu makes easy work of Jiraiya and Onoki, and Itachi is faster than Sasuke and has a stronger Susano'o than Sasuke had @ that point. A is horribly outmatched.


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## Patrick (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol'd.
> 
> Totsuka oneshots everyone you mentioned. Amaterasu makes easy work of Jiraiya and Onoki, and Itachi is faster than Sasuke and has a stronger Susano'o than Sasuke had @ that point. A is horribly outmatched.



Quick work is a bit of an exaggeration. You make it sound like Itachi is far above their level.


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## Turrin (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Nagato dealing with 1 or 2 is irrelevant here, as Itachi ambushed him by cutting off his shared vision link. Nagato didn't see him coming, thats why he wasn't able to react.
> .


Nagato would have seen the Kunai coming though and certainly could have stopped some thrown Kunai if he wasn't distracted with Naruto and B.



> You may argue that B didn't have knowledge on shared vision, but no one told Itachi about it either, he learned about it by observing.


Itachi got to see B countered by Shared vision, if B's not there he doesn't learn about it.



> With that said, B wouldn't be able to replicate what Itachi did even if he had knowledge


Pretty sure B has the skill with swords to throw them into the eyes of summons.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol'd.
> 
> Totsuka oneshots everyone you mentioned. Amaterasu makes easy work of Jiraiya and Onoki, and Itachi is faster than Sasuke and has a stronger Susano'o than Sasuke had @ that point. A is horribly outmatched.



Of which, is banned in this match. Remember, this is Genjutsu-less here. Someone's not reading the stipulations. 

I mean really, do you think I'd waste my time saying it was gimped if I had believe that Totsuka could be used? Only functions now as a regular generic sword at this point. Whoop-de-fuck.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Nagato would have seen the Kunai coming though and certainly could have stopped some thrown Kunai if he wasn't distracted with Naruto and B.


I didn't say that. 
I said it doesn't matter if Nagato is preoccupied with 1 or 5, as long as he is preoccupied.




> Itachi got to see B countered by Shared vision, if B's not there he doesn't learn about it.


He could have easily gotten the intel with a bunshin.



> Pretty sure B has the skill with swords to throw them into the eyes of summons.



Can he curve them like Itachi did and launch them from a blindspot that rinnegan's field of vision can't see ? Highly doubt it.



TheGreen1 said:


> Of which, is banned in this match. Remember, this is Genjutsu-less here. Someone's not reading the stipulations.


Totsuka isn't genjutsu, its a spiritual weapon.



> I mean really, do you think I'd waste my time saying it was gimped if I had believe that Totsuka could be used?



@ the very best you can argue that the fuuinjutsu aspect of Totsuka isn't working, which doesn't change the fact that it is a gigantic sword and will inflict a mortal wound if it lands.


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## Turrin (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say that.
> I said it doesn't matter if Nagato is preoccupied with 1 or 5, as long as he is preoccupied.


That doesn't make sense to me. The more people Nagato has to deal with the more distracted he's going to be; it's kind of common sense. 



> He could have easily gotten the intel with a bunshin.


Your metagaming this shit Grim. Itachi wouldn't know he needs to send in a Bushin w/o knowing about the shared vision, nor would he waste time doing so, when Naruto's life was on the line. Itachi would have attacked Nagato directly to try and save Naruto, and get GG'd like B. 



> Can he curve them like Itachi did and launch them from a blindspot that rinnegan's field of vision can't see ? Highly doubt it.


Considering his insane sword work, I think that's highly likely. Though he could also create Ink Bushin to sneak up on the summons and attack them, if he could not demonstrated that kind of control over thrown weapons.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Totsuka isn't genjutsu, its a spiritual weapon.


The only thing that makes it unique and deadly is that fuuinjutsu aspect. Otherwise, it's just a sword. At this point, the only thing that Itachi's Susano'o has over Sasuke's is Yatta's Mirror. I'll admit, that's a decent item, but that can be bypassed.



> @ the very best you can argue that the fuuinjutsu aspect of Totsuka isn't working, which doesn't change the fact that it is a gigantic sword and will inflict a mortal wound if it lands.


Emphasis on the word *If* here. SM Jiraiya will already have him wrecked with Frog Song before Itachi is able to use his Gimped Susano'o's sword on him.  

Turrin: I don't know how well Nagato is at multi-tasking though. He's always struck me as someone who can micro-manage quite well given that he has to look out of 6 pairs of eyes at the same exact time. That would drive me and pretty much every human nuts.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> The only thing that makes it unique and deadly is that fuuinjutsu aspect. Otherwise, it's just a sword. At this point, the only thing that Itachi's Susano'o has over Sasuke's is Yatta's Mirror. I'll admit, that's a decent item, but that can be bypassed.


The fuuinutsu makes it a oneshot weapon regardless of the circumstances. But even without it, it is still a sword that can chop off 6 heads of Yamata no Orochi in 1 swipe and go through Nagato and Oro like hot knife through butter.
So it'd still oneshot anyone who can't take a gigantic sword to the chest and live.



> Emphasis on the word *If* here. SM Jiraiya will already have him wrecked with Frog Song before Itachi is able to use his Gimped Susano'o's sword on him.


So Jiraiya can use the most prep reliant jutsu in his arsenal before Itachi can do anything to him ? 

Right. 



Turrin said:


> That doesn't make sense to me. The more people Nagato has to deal with the more distracted he's going to be; it's kind of common sense.



You mean the guy who can simultaneously operate 6 paths ? No, its not common sense. 

Also, here, he was ambushed by an attack that he didn't see coming. Even if he wasn't doing anything else, he'd get hit.



> Your metagaming this shit Grim. Itachi wouldn't know he needs to send in a Bushin w/o knowing about the shared vision, nor would he waste time doing so, when Naruto's life was on the line.* Itachi would have attacked Nagato directly to try and save Naruto, and get GG'd like B. *



You ask me not to meta game but you are metagaming yourself. We all know that an extremely intelligent nin like Itachi won't rush in carelessly, and when he does, it is a bunshin used to set up something else : [5]



> Considering his insane sword work, I think that's highly likely. Though he could also create Ink Bushin to sneak up on the summons and attack them, if he could not demonstrated that kind of control over thrown weapons.



I don't doubt his pinpoint accuracy, but what Itachi did was more than that. Not only he multitasked but he threw them in a way that it completely bypassed the shared vision. 

His inkbunshins would be spotted, and even if they managed to bring down the summons, Nagato would be warned and ready for anything that'd come from B.


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## JuicyG (Nov 24, 2014)

_I think people seriously underestimate how massive a Sage Mode enhanced Yomi Numa would be. The activation speed of this jutsu is near instantaneous, and if Itachi doesn't have full intel, he will be caught. And nothing suggests that even Itachi's Susano could climb out. 



Even a non- Sage Mode enhanced version of the Yomi Numa was hyped to the point where it was stated that its "near impossible to escape". Jiraiya in base was able to form a decent sized swamp, with Sage Mode, Yomi Numa may be closer to a full sized lake. Some people are going to try to argue that Itachi will be able to not only react to it, but jump before the ground instantly changes and also measure out how far he needs to jump to completely avoid the swamp itself. That is just a ridiculous argument because Yomi Numa near instant. How would Itachi anticipate that ? Its not the same as Kirin because Itachi knew what was to come, here Itachi would have literally no idea, and he's not a sensor. Once Itachi is snared inside of this massively improved version of Yomi Numa, he will die. Even if Itachi manages to defy logic and jump just at the right moment (which would have to be before Jiraiya even decides to use YM), Itachi would be defenseless in the air. YM would be formed and Itachi would flying through the air to land somewhere and Jiraiya Ma+Pa would intercept him and either force him back to YM's range or just form another YM in the area where Itachi does land._


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> B attacked when two path abilities were being used to deal with Naruto and w/o knowledge of shared vision or Nagato's other path abilities. Itachi attacked while 4 path abilities were being used to deal with B and Naruto, and with knowledge of how shared vision worked as he just saw it used against B. Gee I wonder why Itachi was more successful.



We'll your assumption doesn't make sense to me as  focus shouldn't be a issue for a mindless puppet.


You could argue itachi would of never knew about shared vision if not for bee and that may be true
But that doesn't change that fact that itachi still out performed them.


No one told bee to rush in recklessly.



Aside from saving them he also down Cerberus and ultimately was the one to seal Nagato

The manga was clear on what happened so no need for me to elaborate any further.

Itachi was the MVP in that scenario clearly


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## JuicyG (Nov 24, 2014)

Itachi was the MVP in both the Kabuto fight and the Nagato fight, but that in no mannerly way makes Itachi better than Nagato.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Itachi was the MVP in both the Kabuto fight and the Nagato fight, but that in no mannerly way makes Itachi better than Nagato.



No one ever implied that,


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## JuicyG (Nov 24, 2014)

It certainly sounded like that was what a few of you were getting to. But since that isn't the case, then I will say Itachi can beat Ei or Kisame at his best without genjutsu and possibly Orochimaru still.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> It certainly sounded like that was what a few of you were getting to. But since that isn't the case, then I will say Itachi can beat Ei or Kisame at his best without genjutsu and possibly Orochimaru still.





I don't remember anyone stating that 



Even without genjutsu he is still above sanin level as totsuka is still a problem for all of them


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## JuicyG (Nov 24, 2014)

They way you guys were implying that Itachi did everything in that fight against Nagato made it sound a lot like Itachi > Nagato in your opinions...but obviously that doesn't matter now.


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