# Itachi vs. Nagato



## yellow flash of the leaf (Jul 29, 2013)

*Scenario*: Itachi isnt sick and nagato uses his 6 peins!
    Let the discussion begin!


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 29, 2013)

Oh, a new Minato fan among us? Plus rep.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 29, 2013)

interesting batle is nagato healthy?


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## UchihaSasukeSama (Jul 29, 2013)

Location?

..........


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## LostSelf (Jul 29, 2013)

Nagato and his Six paths of Pain? Yeah, Nagato wins handily.

Put Nagato alone against Itachi and he still wins if the battle is not in Itachi's complete favor.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

So is this Itachi vs. Pain or Itachi vs. Nagato+Pain?

'Cause there's a big difference. 

Itachi could realistically handle Pain or Nagato seperately, under the right circumstances, but both at the same time would require several conditions of the match to be tweaked in Itachi's favor or hefty restrictions placed on Nagato.

Itachi's best shot in any scenario is probably going to be Izanami.


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## Ersa (Jul 30, 2013)

Edo Itachi is the only Itachi that stands a chance against Nagato; he still needs the right conditions to pull off a win. I can't see him defeating both Nagato and the Pein Rikudo however, too much firepower and versatility for him to handle. Nagato is basically pseudo-Madara.


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## ShadowReaper (Jul 30, 2013)

Itachi vs Nagato threads have been done to death...


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## trance (Jul 30, 2013)

Nagato + Pain Rikudou?

You must hate Itachi...

Pain Rikudou alone has CT, CST, soulfuck, a crapton of skyscraper-sized summons, casual town level explosive missiles, a fuinjutsu that absorbs nearly any kind of ninjutsu, shared vision and chakra rods.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 30, 2013)

The manga already showed that. Pain ends up in la la land.


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## Bansai (Jul 30, 2013)

Wait, Nagato PLUS the Pains? It's obvious Itachi doesn't stand a chance. Fighting Nagato alone is troublesome enough.


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## crisler (Jul 30, 2013)

I believe Nagato is stronger than Itachi...

If it's the six path than Itachi might win but Nagato, or Nagato + six path would destroy Itachi

However I also wonder why nagato couldn't react to amaterasu when he was hit, because that panel could suggest a lot of things.

But still...CT would end the battle.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

crisler said:


> However I also wonder why nagato couldn't react to amaterasu when he was hit, because that panel could suggest a lot of things.



Nagato reacted to Itachi's MS jutsu. (It seems he can sense when Itachi is going to use a MS jutsu), but he never expected that an Edo Tensei ally actually hit him.

He realized that Itachi broke free with genjutsu when he was hit.

In a fight between the two, Nagato should have no problems protecting himself from Amaterasu, or attacking Itachi before that happens.


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## crisler (Jul 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato reacted to Itachi's MS jutsu. (It seems he can sense when Itachi is going to use a MS jutsu), but he never expected that an Edo Tensei ally actually hit him.
> 
> He realized that Itachi broke free with genjutsu when he was hit.
> 
> In a fight between the two, Nagato should have no problems protecting himself from Amaterasu, or attacking Itachi before that happens.



but they were automatically set to attack the enemy. kabuto was aware that itachi was out of control, so whatever was under his control would be the same

nagato attacked with banshon tenin and with summons...amaterasu isn't really that difficult to counter, is it? especially with someone like nagato who can pull/push...


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## Epicpudding (Jul 30, 2013)

Nagato roflstomps.

No matter what Itachi does, Nagato still wins easily.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

crisler said:


> but they were automatically set to attack the enemy. kabuto was aware that itachi was out of control, so whatever was under his control would be the same
> 
> nagato attacked with banshon tenin and with summons...amaterasu isn't really that difficult to counter, is it? especially with someone like nagato who can pull/push...



Kabuto was not controlling Nagato at the time. And he didn't control him until Nagato was burning on the floor.

Nagato had no way of knowing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi's best shot in any scenario is probably going to be Izanami.



How would it work?



crisler said:


> However I also wonder why nagato couldn't react to amaterasu when he was hit, because that panel could suggest a lot of things.



Unless Kabuto controls them, Edo Tensei were forbidden from doing anything against other Edo Tensei.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Jul 30, 2013)

This thread has been done a million times in the past. Usually the conclusion that you can draw I believe is that yes Itachi can have a chance, but if he fails *once* on whatever he's going for, he's screwed. Itachi is undoubtedly more intelligent, and more skilled in various things, but that doesn't mean he can win. 

Some common assumptions about Nagato from Itachi fans/fanboys

*-Nagato is stupid* - Not as smart as Itachi, but he isn't an idiot.
*-Nagato is unskilled *- His rinnegan made it even easier for him to learn ninjutsu than it was for itachi, plus 5 natures people.
*-Nagato has poor mastery of the rinnegan, Itachi is a master of MS, Itachi MS > Nagato's rinnegan *- I don't get why some people think he was bad at using the rinnegan. He was picked by Madara because he recognized him as _"the perfect host"_ He already huge chakra reserves and stamina in his blood being an Uzamaki. He was able to effectively use many of the rinnegan abilities. Seriously, and he didn't even have Uchiha blood, he got them second hand. 
*-Nagato is weak against genjutsu, bad against Itachi* - Not any more than anyone else is. He actually displayed some skill of his own in genjutsu, he was able to put mind blocks in anyone in the Rain village. 

Now, out of that, yeah if Itachi manages to get a "critical hit" in he could take it. We have no idea how rinnegan would react to MS genjutsu. There's nothing to suggest that Nagato could break tsukyomi, for as far as we know only other MS users can do so. He really needs to avoid a screw up though, because if he fails, he's done for.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2013)

Nagato can only function as the outerpath while controlling the other paths. So him being around can actually give Itachi an advantage he normally wouldn't have. Because you kill Nagato and Pain is no more.


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

Itachi gets his shit pushed in just the same as cripple Nagato can do by himself.


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## Jagger (Jul 30, 2013)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> The manga already showed that. Pain ends up in la la land.


An Edo Itachi, KM Naruto and Bee helped him, you know.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 30, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato can only function as the outerpath while controlling the other paths. So him being around can actually give Itachi an advantage he normally wouldn't have. Because you kill Nagato and Pain is no more.



yeah in theory sure....

The problem is _how_.....

Itachi essentially has to mow through the _Pein Rikudo_, Summons & Gedo Mazo before he could even reach Nagato (and thats assuming he stays in the general vicinity). Then we run into the problem of the _Pein Rikudo_ being significantly stronger due to their proximity to Nagato.

Even under the most absurd possibility Itachi kills Nagato's mini armada, his chakra would be more or less gone, Nagato would have full access to his powers in his own body and his chakra would have been barely rustled...

Quite frankly..... The only people who can beat Nagato + his Paths are Edo Minato, Hashirama, Madara, Obito & BM Naruto. Itachi gets utterly steamrolled into oblivion if he has to fight Nagato's Paths and then him in a gauntlet fashion


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato can only function as the outerpath while controlling the other paths. So him being around can actually give Itachi an advantage he normally wouldn't have. Because you kill Nagato and Pain is no more.



Obito could control Pain just decently without needing to remain stationary. Though Obito showed that he can't get as involved in the fight when he's controlling Pain, he could provide a limited amount of support. Same deal applies to Nagato using the exact same jutsu.

So Itachi is again disadvantaged as Nagato providing a limited amount of support still makes it a stomp for Nagato-Pain. More so as Pain's powers will be amplified as they're close to Nagato.

Worst comes to worst, Nagato could hide in the chameleon Itachi cannot canonically see, then hit a surprise attack if needed.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Nagato _might_ stand a chance if he has his Six Paths next to him... **


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Nagato _might_ stand a chance if he has his Six Paths next to him... **



Sage of the*


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

Itachi has _no_ chance unless his fanclub is writing the fight.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

Trance said:


> a crapton of skyscraper-sized summons,



Depends if you're willing to call 100m a "skyscraper."



> casual town level explosive missiles,



Shuradou's missiles are nowhere near town-level; even the head cannon is more like on the scale of a couple blocks.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How would it work?



Itachi gets Nagato to kill a couple of his clones the same way and then loops the events. Provided he doesn't die while he's trying to do this.



Vice said:


> Itachi gets his shit pushed in just the same as cripple Nagato can do by himself.



In Izanami. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Worst comes to worst, Nagato could hide in *the chameleon Itachi cannot canonically see*, then hit a surprise attack if needed.



Except that's not canon, because it isn't anywhere in the manga and you're just guessing that Itachi couldn't see it.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

Vice said:


> Itachi has _no_ chance unless his fanclub is writing the fight.



Well Kishi IS the author.


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

Itachi's by himself here, brah.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

I see me, Strat, and some generic factory-issue Itachi fans.

It's not looking good for Nagato.


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## Epicpudding (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I see me, Strat, and some generic factory-issue Itachi fans.
> 
> It's not looking good for Nagato.



Nagato still stomps.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Epicpudding said:


> Nagato still stomps.


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## Epicpudding (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


>



That is an epic pudding.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> yeah in theory sure....
> 
> The problem is _how_.....
> 
> Itachi essentially has to mow through the _Pein Rikudo_, Summons & Gedo Mazo before he could even reach Nagato (and thats assuming he stays in the general vicinity).



Why is that ? Nagato will be just like any other path. 

Unless you believe Itachi can't touch any of the paths, then Itachi can manage to hit Nagato, who has no defensive abilities by himself. 

If you assume Nagato runs around constantly staying back and out of the fight, then his presence wouldn't change anything.
It would essentially be Pain vs Itachi.

Although as long as Itachi knows where he is, he is actually under constant threat of getting killed and thus losing the fight.





> Even under the most absurd possibility Itachi kills Nagato's mini armada, his chakra would be more or less gone, Nagato would have full access to his powers in his own body and his chakra would have been barely rustled...


That is a possibility. If Itachi exhausts himself fighting the paths and then Nagato starts out fresh with 6 path abilities, then I think Nagato would win this.




> Quite frankly..... The only people who can beat Nagato + his Paths are Edo Minato, Hashirama, Madara, Obito & BM Naruto. Itachi gets utterly steamrolled into oblivion if he has to fight Nagato's Paths and then him in a gauntlet fashion



I am not getting into who'd defeat Nagato + his paths, but you are right about the last remark.
Itachi certainly can't fight Pain and Nagato and hope to win, gauntlet style.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito could control Pain just decently without needing to remain stationary. Though Obito showed that he can't get as involved in the fight when he's controlling Pain, he could provide a limited amount of support. Same deal applies to Nagato using the exact same jutsu.


The difference is that Obito never used any path abilities through jins, and he could only use outer path abilities.

As we know, there are 7 paths, including Nagato as the outer path.



> So Itachi is again disadvantaged as Nagato providing a limited amount of support still makes it a stomp for Nagato-Pain. More so as Pain's powers will be amplified as they're close to Nagato.


Nagato can provide support with stuff outside his rinnegan abilities(I don't see how outer path could do anything to Itachi), thats true. However, the advantage Itachi gains is bigger than the advantage Nagato would have as a support to other 6 paths.

There is no difference in landing a hit on, say Hell realm, or Nagato, and in this case landing a hit on Nagato ends the fight by default. 

There was a reason why Nagato stood as far as possible from the battlefield.



> Worst comes to worst, Nagato could hide in the chameleon Itachi cannot canonically see, then hit a surprise attack if needed.



There is absolutely no valid reason to assume that Itachi can't see the chamelon.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


>



Should've used Requiem for a Tower.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi gets Nagato to kill a couple of his clones the same way and then loops the events. Provided he doesn't die while he's trying to do this.



I mean _how_ is Izanami going to work? From what we understand it is either something to use against Izanagi, or against people who have some sort of crisis that they're in denial of. A denial which is comparable to how Izanagi users who refuse to believe a certain move would've been the end of them after using Izanagi i.e. Kabuto believing he is Orochimaru.

So when I ask "how is Izanami going to work", I'm asking how can you generalise it to Nagato ITT?



> Except that's not cannon, because it isn't anywhere in the manga and you're just guessing that Itachi couldn't see it.



Kishimoto felt the need to show us that out of the three people there, only Naruto (who can sense negative emotions), the guy who had his back towards Nagato, noticed him. Nothing about the guy who was facing the chameleon. 

I'm simply saying Itachi couldn't see it given that I have been given no reason to infer that he could. You could argue that you're guessing that Itachi can't see it. It is worth considering that Shima only tracked the chameleon with a jutsu specifically designed for tracking foes by "". Bearing in mind Shima, like all who can use Senjutsu perfectly, can sense chakra.

Sensors can sense a presence that the Sharingan can see. If sensors can't sense it, then it likely means that the Sharingan can't see it either. 

Plus wouldn't the person who swiftly came up with a plan against CT be able to warn his comrades about a surprise attack if he saw it before anyone?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The difference is that Obito never used any path abilities through jins, and he could only use outer path abilities.
> 
> As we know, there are 7 paths, including Nagato as the outer path.



It was still Pain Rikudou and he was controlling them fully. Exactly like Nagato, except he used different powers. 

Furthermore you are speculating *heavily* on what Obito couldn't use. 
You also haven't explained how this is relevant. There seems to be no evidence for this restriction you've imposed on Nagato.

We know that Nagato has the power of the Seventh Path along with all the Rinnegan powers, same with Obito. 
Obito could still control Pain and move around, ergo so could Nagato.



> Nagato can provide support with stuff outside his rinnegan abilities(I don't see how outer path could do anything to Itachi), thats true. However, the advantage Itachi gains is bigger than the advantage Nagato would have as a support to other 6 paths.



That is assuming he cannot use Rinnegan powers whilst controlling Pain. You've not given a valid reason for us to think that is the case. 



> There was a reason why Nagato stood as far as possible from the battlefield.



That likely had to do with the fact that he was handicapped. Obito wasn't handicapped, as such he joined his Paths in battle.



> There is absolutely no valid reason to assume that Itachi can't see the chamelon.



Except Kishimoto didn't have him notice it while he was facing it. It is hard to believe the same guy who informed his comrades about CT's weak points wouldn't tell them that Nagato is getting ready to attack.


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## Jagger (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I see me, Strat, and some generic factory-issue Itachi fans.
> 
> It's not looking good for Nagato.


I'm on Nagato's side.

Jagger>>>Everyone else. 

On a serious note, Nagato wins more times than not.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

Epicpudding said:


> Nagato still stomps.



Over and over again in the Izanami loop. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I mean _how_ is Izanami going to work? From what we understand it is either something to use against Izanagi, or against people who have some sort of crisis that they're in denial of. A denial which is comparable to how Izanagi users who refuse to believe a certain move would've been the end of them after using Izanagi i.e. Kabuto believing he is Orochimaru.
> 
> So when I ask "how is Izanami going to work", I'm asking how can you generalise it to Nagato ITT?



Oh. Well, the way Kishimoto put it, Izanami seems to work whenever a person tries to use Jutsu to change the results of their actions. Izanagi is the Jutsu it was created to counter, so I would go by the principles Itachi explained when describing the interaction of the two Jutsu; the fact that it applies to someone like Kabuto, who used Jutsu to escape from reality in a different (figurative) way, indicates that Izanami's effects are not limited to physical reality-warping like Izanagi, but may in fact apply to ANY attempt to change the outcome designated by Izanami.

This goes with Itachi's statement that Izanami is the Jutsu which "decides fate"; it fixes the end result and forces the events leading up to it to replay until the target accepts the result. Anything the target does to interfere with those events triggers the loop to continue, as in the case with Izanagi.



> Kishimoto felt the need to show us that out of the three people there, only Naruto (who can sense negative emotions), the guy who had his back towards Nagato, noticed him. Nothing about the guy who was facing the chameleon.
> 
> I'm simply saying Itachi couldn't see it given that I have been given no reason to infer that he could. You could argue that you're guessing that Itachi can't see it. It is worth considering that Shima only tracked the chameleon with a jutsu specifically designed for tracking foes by "". Bearing in mind Shima, like all who can use Senjutsu perfectly, can sense chakra.



This is all incidental; we didn't actually see Itachi's reaction, though.



> Sensors can sense a presence that the Sharingan can see. If sensors can't sense it, then it likely means that the Sharingan can't see it either.



Yet sensing chakra and seeing it aren't the same thing; while they may both be capable of detecting chakra, how they do it isn't comparable.



> Plus wouldn't the person who swiftly came up with a plan against CT be able to warn his comrades about a surprise attack if he saw it before anyone?



One would think, but maybe Naruto felt it first. No way to verify that, but we didn't see Itachi's reaction either way.

It's probably nothing more than a hilarious coincidence, but Itachi also had his eyes closed the last time we saw him before Nagato attacked:

can see


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I'm on Nagato's side.
> 
> Jagger>>>Everyone else.



Pre-gay Strategos soloes.


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

While Itachi struggles to set up the loop, Nagato simply rips out his soul. Or blows him away with CT. Or just says fuck it and brings out Gedo Mazo and lets it take care of everything.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This goes with Itachi's statement that Izanami is the Jutsu which "decides fate"; it fixes the end result and forces the events leading up to it to replay until the target accepts the result. Anything the target does to interfere with those events triggers the loop to continue, as in the case with Izanagi.



That makes Izanami sound useful in actual battle though. No Ninja would even know the reason that the events were looping unless Itachi explains it to them, let alone except that it's their fate. 

You make it sound as it the counter to Izanami is giving up. Accepting the fact that the loop will repeat forever is pretty much giving up, which pretty much no Shinobi is going to do.

That would make the Jutsu more or less unstoppable.

Also, your explanation doesn't quite sit right. What is this "end result" Izanami fixes?


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## αce (Jul 30, 2013)

Arguing for Izanami in the battledome is near impossible. How is he going to set up the loop?


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## Joakim3 (Jul 30, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why is that ? Nagato will be just like any other path.
> 
> Unless you believe Itachi can't touch any of the paths, then Itachi can manage to hit Nagato, who has no defensive abilities by himself.



Other than his durability being on a completely different level then his paths, then sure he is more or less the same as them

Sure Itachi can touch paths, that doesn't mean he can beat all six while simultaneously keeping track of Nagato who can simply buddy up with whatever path he deems most protective, or simply go overkill and camp on Gedo Mazo and go nukeforce lvl 9000



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you assume Nagato runs around constantly staying back and out of the fight, then his presence wouldn't change anything.
> It would essentially be Pain vs Itachi.
> 
> Although as long as Itachi knows where he is, he is actually under constant threat of getting killed and thus losing the fight.



It would as Itachi would still have to kill him.... the man has to fight his paths and then Nagato... thats a neigh on insurmountable prospect. 

The problem is Itachi can't know where Nagato is 24/7, while Nagato can.... Itachi is going to be busy fending off the _Pein Rikudo_ and or Summons, couple in an invisible chameleon and Nagato can casually evade detection during the cluster fuck 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is a possibility. If Itachi exhausts himself fighting the paths and then Nagato starts out fresh with 6 path abilities, then I think Nagato would win this.



Thats essentially whats happening this match



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not getting into who'd defeat Nagato + his paths, but you are right about the last remark.
> Itachi certainly can't fight Pain and Nagato and hope to win, gauntlet style.



Glad we can agree



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The difference is that Obito never used any path abilities through jins, and he could only use outer path abilities.
> 
> As we know, there are 7 paths, including Nagato as the outer path.



Nagato always has his _Fuuton_ 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato can provide support with stuff outside his rinnegan abilities(I don't see how outer path could do anything to Itachi), thats true. However, the advantage Itachi gains is bigger than the advantage Nagato would have as a support to other 6 paths.
> 
> There is no difference in landing a hit on, say Hell realm, or Nagato, and in this case landing a hit on Nagato ends the fight by default.
> 
> There was a reason why Nagato stood as far as possible from the battlefield.



Sure.... but the problem is Nagato isn't going to send paths 1 vs. 1 against Itachi like he did SM Naruto.

He is going to camp in the chameleon with Chikushodo and any shot of Itachi winning would go completely out the window from that point on



Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is absolutely no valid reason to assume that Itachi can't see the chamelon.



There is no valid reason to say he _did_ see the chameleon. All we know is Naruto was the only person who noticed... and even he was to late to do anything about it


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## Nikushimi (Jul 30, 2013)

Vice said:


> While Itachi struggles to set up the loop, Nagato simply rips out his soul.



He does that to a clone twice and it's game over for him.



> Or blows him away with CT.



CT doesn't blow away, and Itachi can destroy the core with the Magatama or Amaterasu before any debris builds around it.



> Or just says fuck it and brings out Gedo Mazo and lets it take care of everything.



Gedou Mazou couldn't hit base Chouji. It isn't a threat to Itachi at all.



Rocky said:


> That makes Izanami sound useful in actual battle though. No Ninja would even know the reason that the events were looping unless Itachi explains it to them, let alone except that it's their fate.



That's the idea.



> You make it sound as it the counter to Izanami is giving up. Accepting the fact that the loop will repeat forever is pretty much giving up, which pretty much no Shinobi is going to do.



It's not giving up; giving up would perpetuate the loop, because that is an attempt to escape the consequences. 

Accepting the results dissolves the loop. Look here:

[1]

[1]

I think what Itachi says here is relevant to Izanami, in a thematic way. Giving up isn't the answer. Accepting one's self and one's own limitations is the answer. When Kabuto convinces himself he can't lose and tries to attack again, Izanami continues:

[1]



> That would make the Jutsu more or less unstoppable.



Unless and until the target breaks out of it.



> Also, your explanation doesn't quite sit right. What is this "end result" Izanami fixes?



[1]

Itachi says it was already prepared by that point.

The loop starts as early as the moment Itachi cut off Kabuto's horn, but it wasn't activated until much later.

Given that the events Itachi looped involve crow clones Kabuto destroyed with Sasuke's sword, I'd say that's probably the fixed point. The give-away might be the horns cut off within Izanami:

[1]

It's rather curious how they don't dissolve even when the loop repeats itself. Even though Kabuto's horn is reset to its former condition, the pieces cut off don't reset the same way.

You've gotten me really thinking about this, though... Izanami is an enigma. I should make a detailed thread about it. 



αce said:


> Arguing for Izanami in the battledome is near impossible. How is he going to set up the loop?



With clones or his own body, but the former is a lot safer.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's the idea.



But...._Itachi himself_ even says otherwise.



> It's not giving up; giving up would perpetuate the loop, because that is an attempt to escape the consequences.
> 
> Accepting the results dissolves the loop. Look here:
> 
> ...



Maybe we're not on the same page here. Accepting the "results" (the fact that you're stuck in a never-ending loop) is basically giving up the fight. Naturally, _everyone_ would first try and find a way out of the loop, not just randomly accept the fact that they're now stuck forever.

If you mean Kabuto accepting his limitations, then yes I agree with you. However, Nagato hasn't shown to have a problem accepting his limitations; Izanami would dissolve immediately. 



> I think what Itachi says here is relevant to Izanami, in a thematic way. Giving up isn't the answer. Accepting one's self and one's own limitations is the answer. When Kabuto convinces himself he can't lose and tries to attack again, Izanami continues:



This line of thinking is the only reason Izanami worked on Kabuto in the first place. 

It's because Kabuto didn't accept himself, Kabuto was convinced he could accomplish anything, convinced he was perfect.

Nagato doesn't...have that same complex...why would the Jutsu work?


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

The condition for escaping Izanami has nothing to do with the loop itself. Nagato is not trying to change his fate through the use of Jutsu; he is not trying to be something he's not. Izanami is originally a Jutsu built only to counter another, specific Jutsu. Itachi was able to see that Kabuto was essentially altering his destiny in the same way Izanagi users do, and thus Izanami could be applied. Nagato however, does not fit the bill.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Oh. Well, the way Kishimoto put it, Izanami seems to work whenever a person tries to use Jutsu to change the results of their actions. Izanagi is the Jutsu it was created to counter, so I would go by the principles Itachi explained when describing the interaction of the two Jutsu; the fact that it applies to someone like Kabuto, who used Jutsu to escape from reality in a different (figurative) way, indicates that Izanami's effects are not limited to physical reality-warping like Izanagi, but may in fact apply to ANY attempt to change the outcome designated by Izanami.
> 
> This goes with Itachi's statement that Izanami is the Jutsu which "decides fate"; it fixes the end result and forces the events leading up to it to replay until the target accepts the result. Anything the target does to interfere with those events triggers the loop to continue, as in the case with Izanagi.



Rocky said it best:



Rocky said:


> The condition for escaping Izanami has nothing to do with the loop itself. Nagato is not trying to change his fate through the use of Jutsu; he is not trying to be something he's not. Izanami is originally a Jutsu built only to counter another, specific Jutsu. Itachi was able to see that Kabuto was essentially altering his destiny in the same way Izanagi users do, and thus Izanami could be applied. Nagato however, does not fit the bill.





> This is all incidental; we didn't actually see Itachi's reaction, though.



Yes, we saw the reaction of the only person who has a way to detect people without using chakra. 



> Yet sensing chakra and seeing it aren't the same thing; while they may both be capable of detecting chakra, how they do it isn't comparable.



Sensors sense chakra that is there and Sharingan users see chakra that is there. If there are jutsu which function similar to Muu's then there is no way either are finding them.

Your main defence is "we didn't see Itachi's reaction". That defence actually hurts you as in that key situation, the lack of attention on Itachi leads us to an obvious conclusion. That is, Itachi didn't see it.



> One would think, but maybe Naruto felt it first. No way to verify that, but we didn't see Itachi's reaction either way.
> 
> It's probably nothing more than a hilarious coincidence, but Itachi also had his eyes closed the last time we saw him before Nagato attacked:
> 
> [1]



First its "we didn't see Itachi's reaction" now its "Itachi's eyes were closed". Each point is as unbelievable as the other.
Simply because "we didn't see Itachi's reaction" can be countered with he lacked a relevant ability to detect the threat, thus no panel time in that instance. As for "Itachi's eyes were closed", unless you can prove he kept his eyes closed from the time Nagato was down, had time to summon and climb up then it is also a weak point.

The only logical inference is simple: Itachi couldn't see through the concealment technique of a superior foe. Especially when one of your points suggests Itachi chose to keep his eyes closed when Naruto wondered where Nagato was _out loud_.


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

Seriously, why is this still open? Itachi's not beating the Six Paths of Pain, all of Nagato's summons, the Gedo Mazo and Nagato by himself. Any argument to the contrary is just bullshit.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The condition for escaping Izanami has nothing to do with the loop itself. Nagato is not trying to change his fate through the use of Jutsu; he is not trying to be something he's not. Izanami is originally a Jutsu built only to counter another, specific Jutsu. Itachi was able to see that Kabuto was essentially altering his destiny in the same way Izanagi users do, and thus Izanami could be applied. Nagato however, does not fit the bill.



Except Kabuto was not trying to alter his destiny "the same way as Izanagi users do". He wasn't even trying to alter his destiny because there was no fixed destiny. The reason it could be said that Izanagi users were trying to change destiny was because _destiny had already taken a hand_ and they were changing it. Kabuto was no more trying to change his destiny than anyone who takes great steps to become stronger and who resists death during the course of battle with his jutsu. Izanami decides destiny by setting a condition that the target needs to accept to escape. Until they accept that they can't change that thing, they won't be released. 

The point is moot, however. The reason it's pretty much impossible to use in combat against a non Izanagi user is because the caster and target have to share the same sensation twice. It wasn't enough for Kabuto kill two Karasu Bunshin. Or even by doing it with a sword. He was hanging upside down, stabbing the Bunshin with the same sword. The trigger condition for Izanami is quite literally, deja vu. It doesn't need to be identical, but both the caster and the target have to experience a physical sensation similar enough to cause deja vu. We have a model for how similar that sensation has to be in Kabuto's case, so loosening it so significantly as to allow for the target taking out two Bunshin with the same jutsu is unjustified. 

And of course, to imagine that Nagato, who has many attack options and sharp perceptive powers, is simply going to be not merely played thoroughly, but maneuvered so perfectly is to imagine a situation where Itachi's superiority over Nagato is sufficient that he couldn't possibly need Izanami.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

They don't share the same sensation, because being stabbed and stabbing someone are not identical sensations. The same interaction just needs to occur twice to complete the loop.​


Vice said:


> Seriously, why is this still open? Itachi's not beating the Six Paths of Pain, all of Nagato's summons, the Gedo Mazo and Nagato by himself. Any argument to the contrary is just bullshit.



I insist that you be my friend. Don't resist me.​


αce said:


> Arguing for Izanami in the battledome is near impossible. How is he going to set up the loop?



Because Itachi. He's _physics_. **


*Spoiler*: __ 











He's basically Sasuke fused with Shikaku.​


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Izanami decides destiny by setting a condition that the target needs to accept to escape. Until they accept that they can't change that thing, they won't be released.



Itachi stated that if "Kabuto stopped trying to become someone else," he would escape the loop.

Kabuto's escape condition has _nothing_ to do with whatever condition you believe Izanami has set.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> They don't share the same sensation, because being stabbed and stabbing someone are not identical sensations. The same action just needs to occur twice to complete the loop.​



Well, while not the same sensation between them before, they need to share in the same action which generates a contact based sensation for each of them and then repeat it. It isn't as simple as simply repeating the same action. No, Itachi can't just throw a kunai, have them dodge, and then just do it again. 

As much as I know you are going to now want to say he can.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi stated that if "Kabuto stopped trying to become someone else," he would escape the loop.
> 
> Kabuto's escape condition has _nothing_ to do with whatever condition you believe Izanami has set.



Izanami is the  of the condition though. Traditionally, it was used against Izanagi, and forced them to accept the outcome the Izanami user desired. But it can be modified, as it was for Kabuto.

I think Itachi also did Kabuto a huge solid by telling him what he needed to do to escape, because as Itachi told Sasuke, he went the extra mile for Kabuto's benefit because he empathized with him.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Izanami is the  of the condition though, is what she's saying. Traditionally, it was used against Izanagi, and forced them to accept the outcome the Izanami user wanted.
> 
> Itachi modified it so that Kabuto would stop being an evil dick.​



Yeahhhhh...


Rocky said:


> Itachi stated that if "Kabuto stopped trying to become someone else," he would escape the loop.
> 
> Kabuto's escape condition has _nothing_ to do with whatever condition you believe Izanami has set.



The escape condition was Kabuto giving up on trying to become someone else. Izanagi, for instance, doesn't require the user to stop trying to become someone else. The conditions are set by the caster. The extreme difficulty in using it against a non Izanagi user stems from the trouble of setting it up.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Izanami is the  of the condition though. Traditionally, it was used against Izanagi, and forced them to accept the outcome the Izanami user desired. But it can be modified, as it was for Kabuto.​



Oh. That actually makes sense. I guess I concede.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Though I do have to ask, what condition would Itachi even set for Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Though I do have to ask, what condition would Itachi even set for Nagato.



Exactly what I had in mind when I asked Nikushimi how it can be applied to Nagato.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

I don't think it really matters. Itachi technically doesn't even have to tell the victim how he wants them to change their thinking in order to escape the loop. The only reason he did so with Kabuto was because, in completing the condition, Kabuto will become an ally.

And I imagine that's the smartest application of the technique. Granted, this is just speculation, but I predict that once Kabuto exits the loop he's going to play a pivotal role in taking down Orochimaru as a final middle-finger to the snake Sannin from Itachi.​


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think it really matters. Itachi technically doesn't even have to tell the victim how he wants them to change their thinking in order to escape the loop.



It does matter, as there has to be one.



I'm very skeptical to Izanami's usage in general battle, especially after Itachi telling us himself that it can't be used in actual battle.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

I never said there wasn't a way to escape, but whether Itachi facilitates it by _revealing_ it to the victim is up to him.

As for Itachi saying it can't be used in battle, I'm sure that's a translation issue, because he previously said it was designed for being used in the midst of battle against repetitive Izanagi use.

Basically, if one Uchiha fought another Uchiha, then they'd both end up using two Izanagi and ending up completely blind. With Izanami being created as a direct counter, they'd each only lose one eye.​


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## Vice (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I insist that you be my friend. Don't resist me.​



I accepted.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> As for Itachi saying it can't be used in battle; I'm 99% sure that's a mistranslation, as he previously said it was designed for being used mid-battle against Izanagi-users.​



They wouldn't mistranslate that bad.

Maybe Itachi's point should've been more specific, but I still think his overall impression of the technique is that it isn't applicable in your everyday fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It does matter, as there has to be one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In every translation available has Itachi saying Izanami isn't too good in actual battle.
distance

distance
iitachi: It is dangerous to use a technique with a way out in a real battle\\ so that?s why Izanami became a forbidden technique\\​- aegon-rokudo​
3(2b): Jutsu like this, with ways out are too dangerous to use in actual battles. That's why Izanami was made forbidden.​- molokidan​
However it actually _does_ matter on what sort of restriction Itachi puts Nagato under... . Its not like Koto where the user can make the victim commit suicide.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

The viz translation indicates that Itachi has discretion on whether or not someone is trapped within Izanami.



And as I already pointed out, Izanami was designed for battle, so there's definite misinterpretion/exaggeration on the downside.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

It would be ideal if we knew what Viz translated the page I cited as.


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And as I already pointed out, Izanami was designed for battle, so you're definitely misinterpreting/exaggerating the downside.​



Izanami wasn't designed for general battle, it was designed as a hard check to Izanagi, which Nagato doesn't have.

Does the viz translation state something different? If it doesn't, then take it up with Itachi, not me.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Though I do have to ask, what condition would Itachi even set for Nagato.



It doesn't really matter. Unlike Tsukuyomi, Izanami operates in real time. If he could actually be caught in Izanami (which I don't think is realistic; and if it was, I think it would imply that Itachi was enough above Nagato to defeat him in an easier way), he would have to realize he was in a genjutsu, and then determine what the escape condition is, and then accomplish it. Since it is in real time, even a ridiculously easy condition would give Itachi the time he needs to kill him.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

I think Itachi saying "I'm going to keep him trapped" is a hard check to the counterargument that he doesn't have dominating influence over the escape route to the jutsu.

Similarly, if it was designed for battle against an Izanagi user, which is an exponentially more challenging, immortal opponent that teleports on a whim, then it can obviously hack it in general battle.​


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I think Itachi saying "I'm going to keep him trapped" is a hard check to your scan, Rocky. Mine was 'official' viz, so I personally trust it more, but to each his own I suppose.​



It would be dandy if you provided the "official" scan of Itachi talking about Izanami's application in battle, considering every other translation goes completely against what you're claiming. 

What do you think the translators were trying to say? Itachi obviously said something along the those lines.

The Jutsu "Izanami" was designed to counter the Jutsu "Izanagi". If the person Itachi's facing doesn't carry "Izanagi" in their arsenal, then "Izanami" _probably_ isn't going to be applicable. This is just basic logic.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What do you think the translators were trying to say? Itachi obviously said something along the those lines.



That is was risky to use a technique with an escape that held such a high price. Izanagi and Hachimon are kinjutsu because they similarly take tolls on the physical body in exchange for their use.

The jutsu, however, can definitely be used in battle, because it was solely designed with that in mind. As you said yourself, it was a hard check to Izanagi, one of the most broken combat jutsu.​


Rocky said:


> The Jutsu "Izanami" was designed to counter the Jutsu "Izanagi". If the person Itachi's facing doesn't carry "Izanagi" in their arsenal, then "Izanami" _probably_ isn't going to be applicable. This is just basic logic.



I thought you already conceded that Izanami, in being a jutsu stated to decide destiny, can be modified in its application? It's essentially the offensive counterpart of Izanagi.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm going to the Viz clear up thread. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> It doesn't really matter. Unlike Tsukuyomi, Izanami operates in real time. If he could actually be caught in Izanami (which I don't think is realistic; and if it was, I think it would imply that Itachi was enough above Nagato to defeat him in an easier way), he would have to realize he was in a genjutsu, and then determine what the escape condition is, and then accomplish it. Since it is in real time, even a ridiculously easy condition would give Itachi the time he needs to kill him.



But the thing you say doesn't matter actually matters a lot: exactly _what_ condition could someone like Nagato be put under?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But the thing you say doesn't matter actually matters a lot: exactly _what_ condition could someone like Nagato be put under?



You're not god. You're Naruto's uncle. Konan's a ho. Etc.​


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## Rocky (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That is was risky to use a technique with an escape that held such a high price.



Could you post the viz translation of that chapter so we can avoid arguing over what we think translators meant. Pretty please? 



> it was a hard check to what may be the single most deadly ninjutsu in existence.



Being anti-Izanagi  is not grounds to say it can be used on everyone and their mother, and be just as effective as if it was countering the Jutsu it was originally developed for..


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## marco55656 (Jul 30, 2013)

Theres a reason nagato uses pein, it's because it's better to use in a fight, and Preta/human/animal path takes this handedly, adding the other 6 paths is a complete stomp, adding nagato again is also a shitstomp


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Could you post the viz translation of that chapter so we can avoid arguing over what we think translators meant. Pretty please?



I would if I could, but just thrifted through google-image. ​


Rocky said:


> Being anti-Izanagi  is not grounds to say it can be used on everyone and their mother, and be just as effective as if it was countering the Jutsu it was originally developed for..



I agree, as it's definitely more risky when modified from an action (Izanagi) into an abstraction (Kabuto's dreams.) Izanagi users have to bite the bullet whereas abstractions require a change in thought. 

However, if that change in thought could essentially mimic Kotoamatsukmai, albeit in a natural process, as the victim has to switch their thinking themselves.

If we really get deep and think about destiny, then it was Kabuto's right to pursue whomever he wanted. In using Izanami, Itachi literally  forced Kabuto to realign his thinking with Itachi's will.

In that instance, Kabuto's free will was completely quashed and he was set on a different path. Itachi used Izanami to decide Kabuto's destiny, effectively implementing predestination. 

Besides, it's called an ultimate dōjutsu, along with only Izanagi, so it wouldn't really follow for it to be generally useless. Risky? Definitely. Useless? That's more of a stretch.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You're not god. You're Naruto's uncle. Konan's a ho. Etc.​



Nagato never thought he was a God. 

See, even _you_ are having a hard time thinking of what possible conditions Itachi could set.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato never thought he was a God.



"Accept that Jiraiya's book was terrible"


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 30, 2013)

He could simply set the condition to force Nagato to 'accept' that he can't beat Itachi. 

He can set any condition designed to force them to give up any belief he wanted for target to release themselves. It was risky for him to do so against Kabuto, since he couldn't be sure that Izanami would even work like that, but as it turns out, it does.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Accept that Jiraiya's book was terrible"







SubtleObscurantist said:


> He could simply set the condition to force Nagato to 'accept' that he can't beat Itachi.
> 
> He can set any condition designed to force them to give up any belief he wanted for target to release themselves. It was risky for him to do so against Kabuto, since he couldn't be sure that Izanami would even work like that, but as it turns out, it does.



This is actually the most plausible explanation I've seen thus far.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jul 30, 2013)

The manga places Nagato on a higher pedestal than Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 30, 2013)

It's extra emabarrassing when you realize he forced Itachi to carry him up there. "B***h! Don't make me crawl over there and smack the undead out of you!"​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 30, 2013)

Winchester Gospel said:


> The manga places Nagato on a higher pedestal than Itachi.



I agree with this. 

That might say a lot given Nagato was handicapped and chakra deprived, most likely.


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## Jagger (Jul 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Pre-gay Strategos soloes.


Bitch, he can be bisexual and I can still solo him.


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## Turrin (Jul 30, 2013)

Eye Contact is avoided by Shared Vision, Sensing, and multiple bodies.
Itachi is good in CQC, but he is out classed by 6 bodies with shared vision
Itachi's basic Ninjutsu is absorb by HG Realm
Amaterasu is sensed and the Pain Realms disrupt Itachi
Suasno'o is countered by CT, CST, HG, and GM 
Izanami, highly unlikely to create 2 identical points against 6 different bodies who together have one of the largest number of Jutsu in the manga. Also Izanami would at best take down a single body at the cost of Itachi's eye so not the best trade off.

Pain wins far more often than not.


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## trance (Jul 30, 2013)

Nagato wins.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 31, 2013)

Winchester Gospel said:


> The manga places Nagato on a higher pedestal than Itachi.




Nah, but the reason he was up there was to sense kabuto. Chakra transmission and reception works like radio waves, so it's best to both transmit and receive in high places.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 31, 2013)

Jagger said:


> An Edo Itachi, KM Naruto and Bee helped him, you know.


You're right. Itachi was disadvantaged in the manga as he had to babysit two weak Jinchuuriki.

He still solo'd, though.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 31, 2013)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> You're right. Itachi was disadvantaged in the manga as he had to babysit two weak Jinchuuriki.
> 
> He still solo'd, though.



Because Nagato wasn't crippled, lacking both Gedo Mazo, Pain and was being controlled by a moron in the form of Kabuto. Your never going to win the "who was more handicapped" argument 

What Itachi did was the equivalent of me sneaking up on a lion while it's preoccupied mauling my 2 friends and shooting it in the head from behind. 


...moral of the story Itachi I never really _fought_ the lion


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## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2013)

Itachi was more handicapped, bro. He was resurrected with his weakened body, like Hiruzen, Nagato, Chiyo, Hanzō, etc. so he was much slower and weaker than he was in his prime.

Prime Itachi would have blitzed Nagato with the speed of a thousand Hiraishins.​


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## Jagger (Jul 31, 2013)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> You're right. Itachi was disadvantaged in the manga as he had to babysit two weak Jinchuuriki.
> 
> He still solo'd, though.


Two weak Jinchuuriki that are able control their Bijuu's chakra and one of them was solo'ing Kage-level shinobi with just using his clones.

Try again.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 31, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was more handicapped, bro. He was resurrected with his weakened body, like Hiruzen, Nagato, Chiyo, Hanzō, etc. so he was much slower and weaker than he was in his prime.
> 
> Prime Itachi would have blitzed Nagato with the speed of a thousand Hiraishins.​



Itachi was resurrected with his body at absolute peak like every other Edo literally baring Nagato. Both he & Kimimaro who both died from disease should zero signs of hinderance unlike their past lives. People like Chiyo & Hiruzen are old... they simply physically aren't up to par... thats Kabuto's fault for not getting their DNA when they were younger



Nagato on the other hand was not afforded said luxury.... as Kishi loves gimping the man in _every single_ fight. 

Resurrected still emaciated, crippled, no paths, no gedo Mazo... hell he wasn't even allowed to keep his own mind. Why this is still up for debate bewilders me Strat


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## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Itachi was resurrected with his body (to our knowledge) at absolute peak. Last time I checked he wasn't blind, or coughing pints of up blood every other second, and keeling over.... i.e what I'd call not sick
> 
> Even Kimimaro was "cured" of his sickness, seeing the man was next to Madara the last Edo standing, and also like Itachi.... not coughing up pints of blood
> 
> But Nagato.... oh Kishi loves gimping the man in _every single_ fight. Emaciated and crippled, no paths, no gedo Mazo... hell not even his own mind. Why this is still up for debate bewilders me Strat



Just because Itachi and Kimimaro were coughing up blood doesn't mean they were brought back at peak condition. Edo Tensei brings them back at the age they were when they died. 

And when they died, their bodies were weakened from sickness just like others were weakened from age. To assume that they were in perfect condition is to ignore every other example... 

And the fact that Kabuto said that Madara was the only one brought back improved beyond his prime as an Edo Tensei, indicates that all others were brought back at, or beneath their prime.

So it's only proper to assume that prime Itachi moved faster than KCM Minato, had chakra comparable to sage Hashirama, and possessed physical strength that far surpassed Tsunade.

The only reason Itachi couldn't activate his own sage mode was because he was brought back with his body still significantly weakened, just like it was shortly before death.​


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## Joakim3 (Jul 31, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Just because Itachi and Kimimaro were coughing up blood doesn't mean they were brought back at peak condition. Edo Tensei brings them back at the age they were when they died.​




_Edo Tensei_ brings people back at which *date their DNA was collected*, not death. It's the reason Sasori was brought back as human and not a puppet when he died.



Strategoob said:


> And when they died, their bodies were weakened from sickness just like others were weakened from age. To assume that they were in perfect condition is to ignore every other example...



We have no idea when Kabuto collected their DNA so we have zero idea speculating on what condition they where. When they died is irrelevant

The only thing I know is they weren't keeling over and dying thus by merit of canon feats they where at WORST not hindered in anyway from disease or in laymen's terms.... not sick or in better health



Strategoob said:


> And the fact that Kabuto said that Madara was the only one brought back improved beyond his prime as an Edo Tensei, indicates that all others were brought back at, or beneath their prime.



Thats fine.... 

The only problem is we have zero idea when Kabuto collected Itachi's DNA... so your argument holds no water. All we know is that he wasn't hindered by his disease thus logic would dictate he was brought back significantly better than at his time of death



Strategoob said:


> So it's only proper to assume that prime Itachi moved faster than KCM Minato, had chakra comparable to sage Hashirama, and possessed physical strength that far surpassed Tsunade.






................ please someone slap me to make sure i'm not hallucinating


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