# Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann vs. Giygas



## Battoumaru (Feb 4, 2011)

Part two of my effort to overthrow Giygas's victory streak! Can the pinnacle of Manliness and Spiral Power, Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann defeat the "*Evil Power*"? The Universal Cosmic Destroyer, Giygas!?

This battle will be judged in two different scenarios: 

A: Spiral Power is used with its regular properties (ie: Bending Logic, Altering Probability, etc.)

B: Spiral Power is granted the same effect as Paula's "Pray" ability, albeit in the form of Physical Attacks on top of its regular properties.

Edit: Assume for each scenario that the Devil's Machine is turned off, and the Dai-Gurren-Dan are all in Giygas's dimension.


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## Derfine (Feb 4, 2011)

A: Giygas stomp, Abstract > Celestial > Cube >= STTGL > TTGL
B: Unknown, but probably Giygas


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 4, 2011)

where is giygas from? marvel or dc


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## KizaruTachio (Feb 4, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> where is giygas from? marvel or dc



earthbound I think


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## Battoumaru (Feb 4, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> where is giygas from? marvel or dc



MOTHER 2/EarthBound. The game that Ness came from.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 4, 2011)

Derfine said:


> A: Giygas stomp, Abstract > Celestial > Cube >= STTGL > TTGL



Doesn't work that way. Giygas may be an abstract being, but that doesn't mean he has the same level of power as a Marvel abstract. Giygas is still universe+, which puts him in the neighborhood of a cube being.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Feb 4, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> MOTHER 2/EarthBound. The game that Ness came from.



and it's from Nintendo. 

anyways both scenarios Giygas stomps, mostly cause he is out of STTGL's reach and STTGL can't really hurt him.
Universe Busters>>>>>STTGL


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 4, 2011)

what grand zamboa is a universe buster and he is just slightly stronger then ttgl


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## Battoumaru (Feb 4, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> what grand zamboa is a universe buster and he is just slightly stronger then ttgl



Well... Grand Zamboa/Gran Zeboma did fire a freaking Infinity Big Bang Storm at TTGL, which probably would've killed them, and a lot of others (ie: a whole bunch of neighboring Galaxies.) had Lordgenome not absorbed it with Lazengann Overload. 

Super Tengen Toppa could probably withstand it, though.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 4, 2011)

well lazengann is a part of ttgl so its moot point


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 4, 2011)

TTGL is a very low tier universal. STTGL is many times stronger, but he's barely mid-tier universal if that
ive heard Giygas is a high tier universal.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm not sure how you tier universals, but Giygas destroyed the universe while his power was substantially suppressed.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Feb 4, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'm not sure how you tier universals, but Giygas destroyed the universe while his power was substantially suppressed.



pretty much it was back when he had a mind


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## Battoumaru (Feb 5, 2011)

Ah yes. I felt I should specify something else. I totally forgot about the Devil's Machine/Apple of Enlightenment when I made this. Assume that the machine is turned off, and the Dai-Gurren-Dan are all in Giygas's dimension.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 5, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'm not sure how you tier universals, but Giygas destroyed the universe while his power was substantially suppressed.


Seems pretty high tier.
How would he do against Omnimon X or ZeedMillenniummon


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Feb 5, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> Ah yes. I felt I should specify something else. I totally forgot about the Devil's Machine/Apple of Enlightenment when I made this. Assume that the machine is turned off, and the Dai-Gurren-Dan are all in Giygas's dimension.



if so Giygas just mind rapes everythin/everyone on board


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## strongarm85 (Feb 5, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> Well... Grand Zamboa/Gran Zeboma did fire a freaking Infinity Big Bang Storm at TTGL, which probably would've killed them, and a lot of others (ie: a whole bunch of neighboring Galaxies.) had Lordgenome not absorbed it with Lazengann Overload.
> 
> Super Tengen Toppa could probably withstand it, though.



Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Super Grandzameboa caused they universe that they fought in to collapse into a singularity. The battle itself continued long after said universe had been destroyed.


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## Derfine (Feb 5, 2011)

1st, They didn't destroy the Universe. 
2nd, All *Galaxies* of the universe being devour by the Giga Drill Break. 
3rd, TTGL and GZ only destroy the universe where they fight by their *explosion*.
4th, Lazengann were seperated from TTGL.
5th, TTGL is above Lazengann but still below Cube Being.
6th, STTGL and SGZ still Low-Tier Universal
7th, Giygas still stomp.


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2011)

Movie isn't canon.


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## Derfine (Feb 5, 2011)

strongarm85 said:


> I hate to break it to you Derfine. But you saw everything in the Universe compress into a single point. That is called a Big Crunch.
> 
> That is exactly what the Anti-Spirals were warning against when trying to suppress the use of Spiral power.
> 
> You obviously haven't seen the Lagann-Hen Movie, because the events I described where major parts of the ending of that movie.



I already watch it more than 10 times. I only seen every single Galaxy of the universe destroyed. 

STTGL isn't one shot the universe. Spiral Nemesis is pretty much like Big-Rip.

Note: What STTGL got *is* size *not* "quality".


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## Endless Mike (Feb 5, 2011)

The Spiral Nemesis was a black hole that would suck in the universe. Obviously that didn't happen, because that was the thing they were trying to prevent


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## Battoumaru (Feb 5, 2011)

Fang said:


> Movie isn't canon.



That may be true, but Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is only in the movie.

Had I said "Dai-Gurren-Dan vs Giygas" you could make that argument, but I'm specifically referring to Lagann-Hen here.


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## Riverlia (Feb 5, 2011)

Super Spiral Space =/= our universe
TTGL and STTGL could exist and destroy galaxies because they did that in the Super Spiral Space they generated. Outside of it, they will collapse.

Was it our universe or the Super Spiral Space that got sucked into a singularity?
AFAIK, it's unknown whether SSp is as big as the real universe


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## Endless Mike (Feb 5, 2011)

IIRC in the movie there were only a few dozen galaxies in the Anti-Spiral's universe


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 5, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> IIRC in the movie there were only a few dozen galaxies in the Anti-Spiral's universe



And all of them got sucked in during the clash between SGZ and STTGL.


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## Derfine (Feb 5, 2011)

Even if SSP large as or larger than our universe. It doesn't the fact that SGZ and STTGL can't one-shot the universe. No more, no less.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> Even if SSP large as or larger than our universe. It doesn't the fact that SGZ and STTGL can't one-shot the universe. No more, no less.


Uhh. If it was as big as our universe, its Giga drill would destroy several universes at once being as that it was about 10 times the size of STTGL


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Uhh. If it was as big as our universe, its Giga drill would destroy several universes at once being as that it was about 10 times the size of STTGL



And I found some plot hole in TTGL. The planets in SSP were *smaller* than the *Moon* and it also proof what Databook said is wrong.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> And I found some plot hole in TTGL. The planets in SSP were *smaller* than the *Moon* and it also proof what Databook said is wrong.



Ever heard of dwarf planets? 

Also to note that planets differ in size, as well as moons. There are moons bigger than some planets such as Ganymede being bigger than Mercury.

EDIT:

Blah, terminology.


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## strongarm85 (Feb 6, 2011)

Everything dimension that they fought in was compressed into the a singularity at the point that their attacks connected to one another.

That is indisputable.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 6, 2011)

^that just means those planets are nothing like the planets in ttgl verse


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

strongarm85 said:


> Everything dimension that they fought in was compressed into the a singularity at the point that their attacks connected to one another.
> 
> That is indisputable.



Still, it doesn't change the fact that STTGL and SGZ are still Multi Galaxy-buster via feat. And Giygas is still the winner.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> Still, it doesn't change the fact that STTGL and SGZ are still Multi Galaxy-buster via feat. And Giygas is still the winner.



Yes b/c a Big Crunch inducing GDB is totally considered multi-galaxy. 

And earlier GZ and TTGL were trading Big Bang level energy. And gotten stronger when they transformed. Yep, totally Multi-Galaxy.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 6, 2011)

They never caused a Big Crunch, unless the Anti-Spiral's universe immediately recreated itself afterwords.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> They never caused a Big Crunch, unless the Anti-Spiral's universe immediately recreated itself afterwords.



Nah, the verse got blown to hell. Still doesn't change that their attacks are still at universe level. And plus it collapsed at one point. I don't thing BG would be the right word but very similar.

I mean, earlier GZ just needed 2 galaxies to to create big bang level energy and wasn't the Super GDB feeding off energy (same with SGZ) from all the galaxies that were drawn in for their attacks?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 6, 2011)

basch71 said:


> Nah, the verse got blown to hell. Still doesn't change that their attacks are still at universe level. And plus it collapsed at one point. I don't thing BG would be the right word but very similar.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mghOPE3_XTs[/YOUTUBE]
Looks like the universe is still there to me. Once it zooms back in you can see galaxies and space around them, after all, so either the Anti-Spiral's universe regenerated itself or it was never destroyed to begin with, at least not completely.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

OK so I was right. They used the galaxies in the universe to feed their attacks. So any existing galaxies you see when zoomed in are the ones acting as fuel. The haven't expanded back to normal since the attack still occurred.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 6, 2011)

basch71 said:


> OK so I was right. They used the galaxies in the universe to feed their attacks. So any existing galaxies you see when zoomed in are the ones acting as fuel. The haven't expanded back to normal since the attack still occurred.



How did you come to that conclusion? I don't think we see anything suggesting that the drills are being powered up by the galaxies they pull in.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? I don't think we see anything suggesting that the drills are being powered up by the galaxies they pull in.



Instead of being sucked in through the center, it's done from behind. And GZ already established that individual galaxies can act as fuel. Which can be converted into SE which we also seen. Although SGZ came out on top, at first.


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

basch71 said:


> OK so I was right. They used the galaxies in the universe to feed their attacks. So any existing galaxies you see when zoomed in are the ones acting as fuel. The haven't expanded back to normal since the attack still occurred.



I hate to said this. Leeron stated the Infinity Big Bang Storm is *almost like* Big Bang.

And TTGL never tank the entire attack which only make its durability a little above Overload Lazengan.

And all Galaxies are only sucked by GDB.


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## strongarm85 (Feb 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> Movie isn't canon.



Wither the movie is canon to the series or not is irrelevant. 

Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann only exists in the movie.

Therefore in regards to this fight, the only Canon that matters in the movie.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> I hate to said this. Leeron stated the Infinity Big Bang Storm is *almost like* Big Bang.
> 
> *And TTGL never tank the entire attack which only make its durability a little above Overload Lazengan.
> *
> And all Galaxies are only sucked by GDB.





The whole Dai-Gurren gang with their Tengen Toppa mode mechs and IIRC TTGL already got beat and was just TG Lagann *ALL* tanked the attacked and at point blank no less.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 6, 2011)

basch71 said:


> Instead of being sucked in through the center, it's done from behind. And GZ already established that individual galaxies can act as fuel. Which can be converted into SE which we also seen. Although SGZ came out on top, at first.



It's very apparent when the Grand Zamboa uses galaxies as fuel, though, considering it turned the pair it used into a giant glowing energy ball bigger than it's entire body. We see no such indication during the Giga Drill Breaker showdown, and the galaxies seen around the mechs are no different than usual.


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

basch71 said:


> The whole Dai-Gurren gang with their Tengen Toppa mode mechs and IIRC TTGL already got beat and was just TG Lagann *ALL* tanked the attacked and at point blank no less.



I'm talking about Series not the Movie. And *All* them tanked not *each* of them. All TG Mode Mech are Near-Cube Being level at best. 
After all, Dai-Gurren Dan must require PIS to win. :


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> I'm talking about Series not the Movie. *
> *


*

The tv series is not important at the moment.




			And All them tanked not each of them.
		
Click to expand...

*
Do you read what you type? 



> All TG Mode Mech are Sky-Father at best.



Arguable with the exception TTGL (TV version) and STTGL. Doesn't change that they can tank universe creation level energy.



> After all, Dai-Gurren Dan must require PIS to win. :


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 6, 2011)

Skyfather at best? What are you smokin'?


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Skyfather at best? What are you smokin'?



Just pretend that I never said it.
@basch71: Then let me ask. If STTGL fight on equal state, without the AGL, CGGL, Lazengann Overload support. Can they win ?


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## Battoumaru (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> Just pretend that I never said it.
> @basch71: Then let me ask. If STTGL fight on equal state, without the AGL, CGGL, Lazengann Overload support. Can they win ?



But then it would just be an incomplete STTGL. STTGL is inherently composed of all of its predecessor Gunmen. Including Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Chouginga Gurren Lagann, Arc Gurren Lagann, Gurren Lagann and lastly Lagann.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 6, 2011)

Derfine said:


> Just pretend that I never said it.
> @basch71: Then let me ask. If STTGL fight on equal state, without the AGL, CGGL, Lazengann Overload support. Can they win ?



Without those components, STTGL wouldn't be formed genius. 

It's a transforming mecha, remember? It's like asking whether or not a Power Rangers' Megazord can still win without their arms and legs.


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## Derfine (Feb 6, 2011)

And STTGL is an energy construct. Remember ?


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## strongarm85 (Feb 7, 2011)

STTGL can't be formed without it's predicessors being there to form it. More specifically the whole mech is impossible with Lagann.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 7, 2011)

Derfine said:


> And STTGL is an energy construct. Remember ?



And this right here is why you're in the red and have no idea what you're talking about. 



Sure he used excess Spiral Energy to transform. Doesn't change that STTGL is made up of multiple mechs including Lagann and it's variations.

Those act as core components or the transformation won't work.

Think before you post.

Do you honestly think one piece can make up for an entire transformation with lacking components and expect it to work?

Without Lagann, Gurren can't become Gurren Lagann. And so on and so forth. Each act as core components. Without them, the transformation fails.

STTGL is not STTGL by itself. It's made up of multiple mechs.

It's like taking out a keystone out off a pile of boulders, the pile will collapse.

That game Jenga would be a better example.


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## Masa (Feb 7, 2011)

Its been a while since I've played Earthbound, but when did Giygas do anything on a universal scale? 

Sure he was called a "Universal Cosmic Destroyer", but he never actually did anything past conquering Earth (and possibly other planets).


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## Battoumaru (Feb 7, 2011)

Masa said:


> Its been a while since I've played Earthbound, but when did Giygas do anything on a universal scale?
> 
> Sure he was called a "Universal Cosmic Destroyer", but he never actually did anything past conquering Earth (and possibly other planets).



IIRC, Buzz Buzz said that in the future, he reduced the universe to darkness.

But apparently that took like, ten years. I don't think he could _instantly_ bust the universe, considering that he's mindless and all.

And the same time, they sure don't call him the "_Galactic_ Cosmic Destroyer". Even his epithet implies that he would've inevitably destroyed the universe had "The Chosen Four" not stopped him.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 7, 2011)

It's not implied that he'll destroy the universe, it's stated that he will.



			
				Magicant Voice said:
			
		

> Everything in the universe could be destroyed at the hands of Giygas.





			
				Porky said:
			
		

> And here you stand, waiting to be burned up with all the rest of the garbage of this universe...



As for his destruction of the universe in the future, it's never stated that it took ten years, just that it happened ten years in the future.


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## Masa (Feb 8, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> IIRC, Buzz Buzz said that in the future, he reduced the universe to darkness.
> 
> But apparently that took like, ten years. I don't think he could _instantly_ bust the universe, considering that he's mindless and all.
> 
> And the same time, they sure don't call him the "_Galactic_ Cosmic Destroyer". Even his epithet implies that he would've inevitably destroyed the universe had "The Chosen Four" not stopped him.



"Reduced the universe to darkness" can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways. The least likely of which is that he busted the universe considering Buzz Buzz was still alive to tell the story (unless you think Buzz Buzz can tank universe busters, thus Mrs. Minch is > universe buster).  Also, Buzz Buzz can hardly be considered a reliable source on universal terms despite him probably telling the truth to the best of his abilities.

Names and titles hardly have any bearing on actual ability. Omnipotent, for example, is thrown around among cosmic beings like Mr. and Ms. is for people, that doesn't mean they are actually omnipotent, just that they might as well be compared to the people they are put up against.


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## Battoumaru (Feb 8, 2011)

Masa said:


> "Reduced the universe to darkness" can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways. The least likely of which is that he busted the universe considering Buzz Buzz was still alive to tell the story (*unless you think Buzz Buzz can tank universe busters, thus **Mrs. Minch is > universe buster*).  Also, Buzz Buzz can hardly be considered a reliable source on universal terms despite him probably telling the truth to the best of his abilities.
> 
> Names and titles hardly have any bearing on actual ability. Omnipotent, for example, is thrown around among cosmic beings like Mr. and Ms. is for people, that doesn't mean they are actually omnipotent, just that they might as well be compared to the people they are put up against.



Three words: _Apple of Enlightenment_.

It wasn't really referred to in the english localization as explicitly, but the same object that allowed Giygas to forsee his own defeat also allowed Buzz Buzz to forsee the events of the possible future in which Giygas would have  won as well. The Apple of Enlightenment wasn't really elaborated upon very much. In the Japanese version, it is the name given to the "Eye" of the Devil's Machne, from which the mirror image of Ness springs forth before the final boss battle. 

So in a way, the "Apple of Enlightenment" from the "Devil's" Machine granted Buzz Buzz and Giygas "Knowledge" of things to come. Namely, the "Good" and "Evil" futures. If thought of from that perspective, in terms of Biblical Allusion, things make a bit more sense, no?


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## Masa (Feb 9, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> Three words: _Apple of Enlightenment_.
> 
> It wasn't really referred to in the english localization as explicitly, but the same object that allowed Giygas to forsee his own defeat also allowed Buzz Buzz to forsee the events of the possible future in which Giygas would have  won as well. The Apple of Enlightenment wasn't really elaborated upon very much. In the Japanese version, it is the name given to the "Eye" of the Devil's Machne, from which the mirror image of Ness springs forth before the final boss battle.
> 
> So in a way, the "Apple of Enlightenment" from the "Devil's" Machine granted Buzz Buzz and Giygas "Knowledge" of things to come. Namely, the "Good" and "Evil" futures. If thought of from that perspective, in terms of Biblical Allusion, things make a bit more sense, no?



In that case you would need to prove how the Apple of Enlightenment is Omniscient, or at least is aware of things on a universal scale.


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