# Rikudou Sasuke vs Full Mangekyou Sharingan Kakashi



## Kuzehiko (Aug 21, 2015)

*Sasuke: tomoed rinniegan and EMS.
Kakashi: Mangekyou sharingan in both eyes given by Obito.

Location: Island Turtle
Distance: 100 m
Knowledge: Manga*

Who'd win this battle?


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## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

Sasuke fodderstomps him.

DMS Kakashi is on the same level
as BM Minato, SM Hashirama, EMS Madara...etc

Sasuke is on a completely different level. This shouldn't take more than few seconds to trash him.
And no, attacking Kaguya does not mean jackshit. Sakura did the same, Bolt completely annihilated Momoshiki,
that was not Kishi telling us that he is stronger than the 5 Kages & Sasuke or on per with them.

So yeah, Raikiri, stay salty you and that guy Key or whatever s/he/it called.


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## ARGUS (Aug 21, 2015)

Sasuke wins mid diff 

 -- RIkudo PS backed up by half of hagoromos chakra from the man himself >>>>>> PS backed up by a portion of low quality rikudo chakra recieved from obito, so a battle of construct results in kakashi getting shat on within a couple of slashes 

 -- Kamui shuriken get countered by enton projectiles, the shuriken warp whatever they touch, once the flames touch the shruiken they dissappear 

 -- Kamui raikiri warps what it pierces, and with preta here, the raikiri gets absorbed altogether meaning all of its affects are completely negated 

 -- Outisde of PS thhere isnt much that kakshi is doing, sasuke has more than enough reactions to react and evade the warp with ameno, or he can simply switch with kakashi and shove a blade through his chest,, or teleport right at him and strike before he can do shit, 

 -- there is also rinnegan genjutsu which kakashi wont be able to break as easily giving sasuke enough time to land  a blow, based on the dojutsu powers, the Rikudo MS is still quite inferoir to the rinnegan based on what we have seen meaning that there wont be enough resistnace provided, allowing sasuke to get him


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## Bonly (Aug 21, 2015)

Sasuke's can pretty much take it with Amenotejikara so it's pretty much  when he goes to use it


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## Ersa (Aug 21, 2015)

Sasuke wins comfortably.

Rikudo Kakashi is terrifying but Amenotejikara and access to more Rikudo chakra give the edge to Sauce here.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 21, 2015)

Ultimately, Sasuke will drop him.


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## thechickensage (Aug 21, 2015)

I'm actually for DMS Kakashi on this one...not much he could do vs kamui-enhanced kakashi jutsus + phasing.

There was another thread about kamui vs preta path.  So it depends on your stance in that other thread.

If kamui works vs Preta, then Sasuke could lose.  If Preta Prevents kamui attacks, then Kakashi would easily lose.  

But how would Sasuke deal with the phasing?  Who is faster: RM Sasuke or DMS Kakashi?


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## S (Aug 22, 2015)

lmao some of the response here, downplaying Kakashi to BM Minato or EMS Madara level...to be honest this match up can go either way, i'm leaning more to Kakashi though. Kamui gg is just to good for this manga.


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## iJutsu (Aug 22, 2015)

Kamui gg.

Sasuke even said himself that he didn't want to fight Super EMS Kakashi and was glad when he found out it was only temporary.


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## Ersa (Aug 22, 2015)

I'd place Rikudo Kakashi more in line with Juubi Jin Obito or Toneri to be honest. His performance against Kaguya suggests at minimum he'd destroy any top tier like Hashirama or BM Minato.


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2015)

1) Sasuke attacks Kaguya with Rinnegan teleportation followed by Chidori, Kaguya easily dodges (1)(2).
- Kakashi attacks a stronger/faster/more powerful version of Kaguya dashing out of his Susanoo with Rikudo enhanced Raikiri combo'd with Kamui phasing effect, aka Kamui Raikiri, Kaguya is not able to dodge, not able to couter, from the lack of "!" until she is hit she is actually unable to even react ()(). there's no excuse "she was surprised because Kakashi phased through her attack" because she witnessed Kakashi phasing through it before, than she had time, she was fast enough to dodge Sasuke appearing at her back with instant teleporting.

2) - Sasuke can't react to Kaguya's S/T Yomotsu Hirasaka in time to dodge it activating his Rinnegan S/T instant swap, let alone dodge on foot (5)(6). That's even if Sasuke already witnessed Kaguya's S/T speed before (so no "he was surprised" bullshit), (7)(8), and was able to casually react to Juudara's Linbo, even physically intercepting it. 
- Kakashi easily reacts to Kaguya's S/T Yomotsu Hirasaka and uses his long range Kamui to outspeed the teleportation portal and warp away both it and the bone projectile before the teleporting could complete ()(). If one it's not blind, it's easy to see that the black portal that was opening before is magically no more after Kamui warp.

Logical conclusion based on what manga showed (1) = Kakashi's physical speed is a lot, a lot faster than Sasuke, as fast as the Uchiha can be and he certainly is. Kakashi can also add Kamui phasing to his movements, and also Kamui self teleporting (at maximized speed having both eyes together + Rikudo chakra powering; it's basically a free seal-less Hiraishin). Kakashi can also use clones with top notch skill in the area, and spam them due to enough chakra (Obito's + his + some Rikudo chakra) to use Perfect Susanoo without any problem.

Logical conclusion based on what manga showed (2) = If Sasuke is not fast enough to do something against Yomotsu Hirasaka, he is definitely not fast enough to do something against long range Kamui, as it proved to be faster, much faster, than Yomotsu Hirasaka. That means that if both have to attack themselves, Kakashi will warp Sasuke away before he can do anything with Amenotejikara. That means Kamui GG basically. That also means that Kakashi has better reactions/reflexes, so he is much more deadly in CQC (when you have to add better speed, better CQC skill, Kamui phasing and Kamui teleporting, clones with quantity and quality), and he can outspeed and oneshot Sasuke if he tries to do the same. Kakashi is also far smarter than Sasuke.

The only way Sasuke can win is Rinnegan genjutsu, assuming that it doesn't need eye contact, as it actually seems it doesn't. But if Kakashi has knowledge of it, he would use on him his long range Kamui that is faster, or phase to defend. Most of times Kakashi wins with long range Kamui GG or with Kamui Raikiri. Sasuke has more raw power but it's useless when Kakashi can defend with Kamui phasing, and the Rinnegan powers (Deva, Preta and so on) as powerful as they are are still meaningless to Kamui hax, as they can't defend from it and can't overcome his defense. Amenotejikara can't defend from long range Kamui as Sasuke can't react to it, if he failed to do with a slower S/T, and can be defended from with better reactions and Kamui phasing, and also keeping the distance as we know it doesn't work after a certain distance. Kamui Shuriken and Kamui Sword (it's the same logic, just that he has to infuse Kamui powers in the Susanoo sword other than the Susanoo shuriken) make Kakashi's Susanoo > Sasuke's Susanoo, Enton weapons are warped; even Sasuke was angry because of Kakashi's new Susanoo and Naruto joked on him because of that. Kakashi definitely wins more times than not.

On a portrayal note. You have Sasuke, together with Naruto, struggling to fight Kaguya when 2 vs 1, and when 1 vs 1 being outclassed more than once, being unable to defend himself from her, being unable to hit her. Then you have Kakashi, alone, completely changing the course of the fight against Kaguya. The strongest version of Kaguya, don't forget, who he could counter in her giant form (Perfect Susanoo + Kamui Shuriken), who he could dodge and hit in her fastest form (Kamui phasing + Kamui Raikiri), who he could outperform in one of her most haxxed resources (long range Kamui). Then Sasuke gained more Rinnegan powers and more raw power, but they are useless against Kamui, and it's not like they would cope the gap in the last performances of master and discipule. I don't know how it can be said that Sasuke not only has more chances, but would definitely win. Not with what the manga showed, sadly. Only way Sasuke can possibly defeat Kakashi is through Rinnegan genjutsu.



Ersatz said:


> I'd place Rikudo Kakashi more in line with Juubi Jin Obito or Toneri to be honest. His performance against Kaguya suggests at minimum he'd destroy any top tier like Hashirama or BM Minato.



He did very well against Kaguya (stood against her giant form countering it (10)(11), defended himself from her attacks (12), attacked and wounded her (13), countered her counterettack directly leading to her defeat (14)(15)), someone who is far powerful than full power Juudara which is more powerful than one eye Juudara which is far more powerful than Juubito. 

Actually Kakashi alone fought against the most powerful version of Kaguya (while Kakashi was obtaining DMS from Obito she enpowered herself by absorbing chakra from the Mugen Tsukuyomi victims; Kakashi fought the Goddess when she was stronger than ever (16)) better than Naruto and Sasuke together could do against a weaker version of Kaguya.

Juubi Obito can't damage DMS Kakashi due to Kamui phasing, Kamui self teleporting with both eyes + Rikudo chakra (hence maximized speed) plus Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo. Gudodama are useless against Kakashi's Kamui and Rikudo chakra. Juubi Dama are casually evaded by teleporting away of phasing through or by warping them or by countering them with Kamui Shuriken warps. Obito is slower than Kaguya and Kaguya couldn't avoid Kakashi's dash and thrust with Kamui Raikiri, so Kakashi wounds him and then cuts him in piece with Rikudo enhanced PS slash or warps his rests away with Kamui. 

Toneri is nothing compared to Kaguya. Kakashi kills him quickly with Kamui Raikiri, or dodges his moon destroying attack and whatever he dishes out with Tenseigan using Kamui teleporting or phasing or Perfect Susanoo flying, and defeats him with Kamui GG.

I suggest you to don't waste your time with Hussain, anyway.


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## Skywalker (Aug 22, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'd place Rikudo Kakashi more in line with Juubi Jin Obito or Toneri to be honest. His performance against Kaguya suggests at minimum he'd destroy any top tier like Hashirama or BM Minato.


Basically, they're scrubs in comparison to him.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'd place Rikudo Kakashi more in line with Juubi Jin Obito or Toneri to be honest. His performance against Kaguya suggests at minimum he'd destroy any top tier like Hashirama or BM Minato.



Would you put Bolt at Kaguya level as well?
His performance shits on DMS Kakashi, as he did not only wound Momoshiki, he erased him from existing.  

I guess 
Bolt (base Narudo's chakra) >>>>>> 5 Kages & Sasuke conformed. 

He did very well, against Momoshiki. He destroyed his Rinnegan completely


and attacked him with his Rassengan (which landed and saved the Kages)

*Spoiler*: __ 









and send him to the space


Kishi totally was saying he is stronger than Narudo and the rest.  

oh and SM/KCM Narudo >>>> SM Hashirama. He did better against Obito than Hashirama. 

Sakura > Rinnegan Sasuke. 

Her performance in that battle shits on Sasuke since she was basically saving his ass. 

and so on..


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2015)

I love Hussain's trolling.

Tobirama is fodder shit.

DMS Rikudo Kakashi is on Hashirama and EMS Madara level at best.

Senpo: Shinsuusenju works only if the opponent isn't at more than 10 metres. I love that, this is the best really.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

I love your inability to bring any argument more.  

Here is the question again:
Was Kishi telling us Bolt is stronger than Sasuke & 5 Kages, yes or no? 

&

You call it "trolling", but you don't see how much of a  Hypocrite you come across as....
Proven when you thought Obito with both of his eyes and full power is weaker than JJ Madara with only EMS. However,
if we change Obito to "Kakashi" with a fraction of Obito's power, you start saying all that nonsense like there is no tomorrow...


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I love your inability to bring any argument more.
> 
> Here is the question again:
> Was Kishi telling us Bolt is stronger than Sasuke & 5 Kages, yes or no?
> ...



I won't waste my time with you.

Obito gave Kakashi the potential and Kakashi showed to be able to use it to the fullest, even adding his old abilities to that potential to create new powerful combo jutsu; there's no proof that Obito would able to use that potential as good as Kakashi did, especially when Kakashi is portrayed as a far greater talented genius than he is. Not to mention that even if you grant the same Sharingan feats to Kakashi and Obito, Kakashi will always come on top because he is smarter and has something like Kamui Raikiri that Obito lacked (and since he had the phasing ability for years and didn't create anything similar, he won't). I don't know why all this butthurt, but you can blame Kishimoto for his drawings of Kakashi successfully counterattacking Kaguya's giant form, facing the most powerful (for Zetsu's statement) version of Kaguya 1 vs 1 managing to dodge her attacks and wound her without anyone around (with Naruto and Sasuke actually waiting for him), negging with his long range Kamui usage the S/T used by Kaguya that has proved to be enough to casually neg Sasuke and almost blitz Naruto. Sad truth but truth.

Also I misread the OP of that topic, you are conveniently forgetting that after I understood that I changed what I previously said (). Anyway think as you wish.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 22, 2015)

Add Kaguya on Sasukes side and Kakashi might break a sweat. Add 3 Eyed Shinju Madara plus RSM Naruto too and Kakashi MIGHT lose.

 Anything less than that and Kamui gg


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

> [=Raikiri19;54219346]I won't waste my time with you.


Then why did you write the rest of this post? 
& believe me that line should be mine. 



> Obito gave Kakashi the potential and Kakashi showed to be able to use it to the fullest, even adding his old abilities to that potential to create new powerful combo jutsu; there's no proof that Obito would able to use that potential as good as Kakashi did, especially when Kakashi is portrayed as a far greater talented genius than he is.



You're fooling yourself. Obito shits on Kakashi, and portrayed to be far superior to him as well.
Kakashi was only ahead of Obito when he was without the sharingan. As soon as he awakened them,
he was way ahead of Kakashi. 

The only thing that made Kakashi worth a damn throughout the entire manga is because Obito
was given him his bless.  


> Not to mention that even if you grant the same Sharingan feats to Kakashi and Obito, Kakashi will always come on top because he is smarter and has something like Kamui Raikiri that Obito lacked (and since he had the phasing ability for years and didn't create anything similar, he won't).



Yeah, because Obito had it for years with the Juubi's chakra. lol
Needless to say, Obito used his Kamui with his jutsu. Like the Fire jutsu he used after he was revealed, and the tools that he brings out of his eye...etc


> I don't know why all this butthurt, but you can blame Kishimoto for his drawings of Kakashi successfully counterattacking Kaguya's giant form, facing the most powerful (for Zetsu's statement) version of Kaguya 1 vs 1 managing to dodge her attacks and wound her without anyone around (with Naruto and Sasuke actually waiting for him), negging with his long range Kamui usage the S/T used by Kaguya that has proved to be enough to casually neg Sasuke and almost blitz Naruto. Sad truth but truth.


I can't blame Kishi because he is not responsible for how people understand certain things. 

Why are you repeating the same shit here instead of answering a simple "yes" or "no" question?

Again, Bolt destroyed the Rinnegan, hit the guy with the Rassengan, and then kill him completely
not only a wound, but he *erased* him from existing!

IS he stronger than the current 5 kages & Sasuke? Yes or no?  



> Also I misread the OP of that topic, you are conveniently forgetting that after I understood that I changed what I previously said (). Anyway think as you wish.


I might read that again later 
because IIRC we continued further than that...


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Then why did you wrote the rest of this post?
> & believe that line should be mine.
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you got me. Bolt > Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto, Rikudo Rinnegan Sasuke, and the fodder kage too.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Aug 22, 2015)

iJutsu said:


> Kamui gg.
> 
> Sasuke even said himself that he didn't want to fight Super EMS Kakashi and was glad when he found out it was only temporary.



Where, please oh please find me that quote...


So now that the lies of out of the way....Let's play big bank take little bank.

Kamui IS BROKEN NO DOUBT, but it's feats stem from it's defensive aspect. Offensively, it's always been kept on a very, very tight leash. And Kamui GG would be very difficult against Sasuke who has is own, and arguably superior(NOW) S/T jutsu. His space time jutsu allows him to swap places with people, objects, launch suprise attacks. If you recall immedialy after recieving the technique Juubi Jin Madara fell victim to the attack, tw ice. And have we not forgoten Sasuke has the ability to teleport into Kaguya's deminsion? 
""

The only way for Kakashi to hurt Sasuke with Kumai on it's own, is by transmigrating body parts. But once again, Sasuke has his own S/T.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yes, you got me. Bolt > Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto, Rikudo Rinnegan Sasuke, and the fodder kage too.



ok, we can agree with that. Bolt is awesome.


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## Amol (Aug 22, 2015)

Well logically Kakashi shouldn't be stronger than Juubito.
I mean Obito who was not a Jinchuriki anymore after his death gave some small portion of chakra he had to Kakashi.
Didn't we use same logic to prove that Naruto or Sasuke can't beat RS as their power comes from him (half to each specifically)?
So why different logic for Kakashi?
Just hypocrisy ?
DMS thing is as outlier as Sakura damaging Kaguya.
It was basically power of rin.
Pretty sure Kishi wants his Protagonist and Deuteragonist look more capable/stronger than their teacher(with asspull powers) against Final Villain. 
*Hero beats the Villain*(or atleast has lion's share in it). Not a supporting character.
That makes more sense logically.
Atleast that is what a good author does.
So Sasuke beats Kakashi atmost with mid diff possibly with low diff.
He had put a sword in Madara without latter even reacting to it .
Kakashi unfortunately doesn't have regeneration on that scale.


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

Amol said:


> Well logically Kakashi shouldn't be stronger than Juubito.
> I mean Obito who was not a Jinchuriki anymore after his death gave some small portion of chakra he had to Kakashi.
> Didn't we use same logic to prove that Naruto or Sasuke can't beat RS as their power comes from him (half to each specifically)?
> So why different logic for Kakashi?
> ...




Kakashi got even less chakra/power than Obito after he got the Juubi pulled out of him. 
Because when they go "inside" another character, their power becomes even weaker
(like with Kushina and B for example when they were helping Narudo)

the whole thing with Kaguya was symbolic.


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## Kai (Aug 22, 2015)

Here's another one.
Sasuke is on par with Naruto, and no one will argue Kakashi can beat Naruto.

Sasuke > Kakashi


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2015)

Kai go away. 

Sasuke needs all 9 Bijus to stand to drained/holding back Narudo (half Kurama). 
but let's not get into that. 



> and no one will argue Kakashi can beat Naruto.


u have no clue!


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## Amol (Aug 22, 2015)

Kai said:


> Here's another one.
> Sasuke is on par with Naruto, and *no one will argue Kakashi can beat Naruto.
> *
> 
> Sasuke > Kakashi


You are underestimating NBD


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## Ersa (Aug 23, 2015)

The thing is, in the Kaguya fight you has some very inflated feats like Sakura sucker punching the strongest character in the series. We are literally talking about someone 2-3 tiers ahead of Juubito who was already leagues faster then someone like BM Naruto. Thus I feel portrayal is one of the major factors to consider in this fight and Kakashi although impressive was never suggested to be at the level of the protagonist's Rikudo forms.

So yeah I still take the feats into account and I'm probably biased since Kakashi is a good character so I still place him near god tier.


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> The thing is, in the Kaguya fight you has some very inflated feats like Sakura sucker punching the strongest character in the series. We are literally talking about someone 2-3 tiers ahead of Juubito who was already leagues faster then someone like BM Naruto. Thus I feel portrayal is one of the major factors to consider in this fight and Kakashi although impressive was never suggested to be at the level of the protagonist's Rikudo forms.
> 
> So yeah I still take the feats into account and I'm probably biased since Kakashi is a good character so I still place him near god tier.



Sakura (thrown by Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo) only hit Kaguya because she was already wounded by Kakashi and troubled by having Naruto and Sasuke right on her ready with the seals, with Kakashi that already countered his counterattack with Kamui and logically would have done the same thing again if she tried to use her S/T again. Usually Sakura is getting speedblitzed.

Kakashi countered Kaguya's moves, defended from her, attacked and wounded her, all by himself. Doing that while both Naruto and Sasuke together were in great trouble against a lesser form of Sakura is impressive portrayal, in my book, not only impressive feats. He was able to perfectly hold his own, he was so perfect he seemed a fanfiction with Itachi.

One also would logically argue that with Kakashi and Gai friendly rivalry, with both of them basically equals in part 1, Shippuden and War Arc, peak Kakashi (DMS Rikudo Kakashi) is at the very least equal to peak Gai (8th Gate Gai), by feats superior I'd say. All Kamui powers (flawless offense that attacks at long range, can't be stopped or countered and it's faster than Kaguya's S/T that is too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke and almost too fast for Rikudo Naruto; flawless defense since with phasing you just need to react to avoid everything; self teleporting which allows you a basically seal less Hiraishin since with both eyes plus Rikudo chakra the speed is maximized, and you have an enormous tactical and mobility advantage, you can go everywhere and have a personal dimension at disposal); Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo that can be used in combo with Kamui powers; a jutsu like Kamui Raikiri; all of Kakashi's jutsu enhanced by Rikudo chakra; Kakashi's speed and reactions enhanced by Rikudo chakra (to the point he can dash against Kaguya and hit her before she can even try to counter his thrust, and to the point he can easily react to her long range attacks and even to her S/T); Kakashi's tactical and analytical smartness; Rikudo chakra plus all Obito's chakra (that allowed him to fight for hours spamming MS, summoning and controlling Gedo Mazo and 6 Bijuu) and his own chakra. Yeah...


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## S (Aug 23, 2015)

The Sakura argument is borderline trolling, it's not like she flew hundreds of meter in the air and confronted Kaguya by herself and took her arm or something or the juubi itself lol...Kakashi read Kaguya's movement like a open book and planned perfectly. Before Kakashi's power up, Kaguya was kicking Naruto and Sasuke's ass 
effortlessly especially  Sasuke.

DMS Kakashi was the game changer.


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## The Undying (Aug 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Thus I feel portrayal is one of the major factors to consider in this fight and Kakashi although impressive was never suggested to be at the level of the protagonist's Rikudo forms.



According to portrayal, DMS Kakashi was the sole factor allowing Naruto and Sasuke to finally gain the upper hand and was commented to be more awesome than Sasuke. That's not even remotely inconsistent with his actual feats.

He's _easily_ far closer to RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke than he is to Juubito.


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2015)

S said:


> The Sakura argument is borderline trolling, it's not like she flew hundreds of meter in the air and confronted Kaguya by herself and took her arm or something or the juubi itself lol...Kakashi read Kaguya's movement like a open book and planned perfectly. Before Kakashi's power up, Kaguya was kicking Naruto and Sasuke's ass
> effortlessly especially  Sasuke.
> 
> DMS Kakashi was the game changer.





The Undying said:


> According to portrayal, DMS Kakashi was the sole factor allowing Naruto and Sasuke to finally gain the upper hand and was commented to be more awesome than Sasuke. That's not even remotely inconsistent with his actual feats.
> 
> He's _easily_ far closer to RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke than he is to Juubito.



Pretty much this. His feats and portrayal are both astonishing. Accordingly.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 23, 2015)

Ameno+PS Chidori=Kakashi's Susanoo getting a hole torn through it's torso. Period. Arguing for anything but Sasuke's victory is crazy. Though people who put him closer to Naruto and Sasuke than they do to Juubito have a point. Still gets raped tho.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Ameno+PS Chidori=Kakashi's Susanoo getting a hole torn through it's torso. Period. Arguing for anything but Sasuke's victory is crazy. Though people who put him closer to Naruto and Sasuke than they do to Juubito have a point. Still gets raped tho.



Sasuke could even throw an atomic bomb, Kakashi would just casually phase through that and everything he would dish, or teleport himself away and then reappear right behind Sasuke, them Kamui Raikiri and GG. While Sasuke can't defend from Kakashi warping his head off with Kamui, Sasuke couldn't do anything in time to avoid Kaguya's S/T, and DMS Kakashi proved that his usage of long range Kamui is even faster than that, outspeeding said S/T jutsu.

Amenotejikara usage is also limited (it can't be spammed because it needs to be recharged and it also doesn't work after a certain distance) while Kakashi can spam his offense and defense without any problem, and is also smarter.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 23, 2015)

The Undying said:


> According to portrayal, DMS Kakashi was the sole factor allowing Naruto and Sasuke to finally gain the upper hand and was commented to be more awesome than Sasuke. That's not even remotely inconsistent with his actual feats.
> 
> He's _easily_ far closer to RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke than he is to Juubito.



Kakashi was a big help but on his own all he could do would be to Kamui warp a few of Kaguya's attacks and get owned sooner or later.

Naruto's skillful use of kagebunshin to fool Kaguya, Sasuke's skillful use of Ameno AND preventing her from using the ice dimension thanks to Amaterasu and Sakura's well calculated attack which prevented Kaguya from desperately dodging all contributed as much in this team effort.

Kakashi shouldn't be stronger than Juubito as he only got the Six path chakra leftovers that Obito stole from Madara. Granted, even a bit of Six path chakra might give great power so for one I think that DMS Kakashi is actually above BM Minato or SM Hashirama but not as strong as Juubito or Juudara both of whom got way more Six path chakra. Juudara in turn was stronger than Juubito since he got more Six Path chakra himself by getting 50% Kurama and full Hachibi instead of fragments of their power.

Kamui is just very haxxxed and particularly effective when an opponent does not know how it works allowing for effective surprise attacks against even stronger opponents. As he caught Kaguya off guard by tanking" her bone projectile. Kakashi's PS was destroyed just as easily as Sasuke's and Kakashi wouldn't last long after Kaguya would have figured how Kamui works.



Raikiri19 said:


> Sasuke could even throw an atomic bomb, Kakashi would just casually phase through that and everything he would dish, or teleport himself away and then reappear right behind Sasuke, them Kamui Raikiri and GG. While Sasuke can't defend from Kakashi warping his head off with Kamui, Sasuke couldn't do anything in time to avoid Kaguya's S/T, and DMS Kakashi proved that his usage of long range Kamui is even faster than that, outspeeding said S/T jutsu.
> 
> Amenotejikara usage is also limited (it can't be spammed because it needs to be recharged and it also doesn't work after a certain distance) while Kakashi can spam his offense and defense without any problem, and is also smarter.



Actually with greater-yet not perfect- mastery of his Rinnegan after the Kaguya fight, Sasuke could land a hit on RSM Naruto twice. The same RSM Naruto who blitzed Kaguya before and dodged hers Yomotsu Hirasaka. Kakashi does not have Naruto's insane perception due to Six Path Senjutsu so he won't be able to sense in time an attack from behind and Kamui's intangibility only works when the user is able to react to an upcoming attack.

An Ameno teleport plus Chidori PS would at the very least force Kakashi to turn off his own PS as he couldn't make it intangible too. And then Kakashi falls to the ground and needs to use PS again to fly as he cannot fly like Naruto or Juubi Jins. And as such he cannot counter in the sky. Using PS again costs plenty of chakra though. Could Kakashi's chakra reserves that he got for Obito let him to use PS over and over again?

Also even if Kakashi reacted if they fought on the ground without PS then Sasuke can absorb an incoming raikiri with preta or use use chidori nagashi. Also with his EMS that could keep track of Juubito even before the RS gift landing a counterattack on Sasuke will hardly be so easy. 

In fact if Kamui was so invincible then Minato wouldn't have owned Obito so easily back then. And Kakashi wouldn't lose so easily to Pain or shit his pants when Sasuke unleashed Susanoo V4.

During this war Obito only managed to "own" via Kamui teleport an exhausted Kakashi and Kakashi himself was never able to decapitate anyone with Kamui wherever he tried. 

Hell...if you argue that DMS Kakashi is as fast or faster than Kaguya then why did he not decapitate her with Kamui?


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kakashi was a big help but on his own all he could do would be to Kamui warp a few of Kaguya's attacks and get owned sooner or later.
> 
> Naruto's skillful use of kagebunshin to fool Kaguya, Sasuke's skillful use of Ameno AND preventing her from using the ice dimension thanks to Amaterasu and Sakura's well calculated attack which prevented Kaguya from desperately dodging all contributed as much in this team effort.
> 
> ...



Facts are that feats show that DMS Kakashi is far above Juubito and comparing both their capabilities and arsenal the gap is even more abysmal. As nonsensical as it can be, the manga showed that. Also this is not Dragon Ball. More chakra is not more power. Part 1 Naruto had probably more chakra than Itachi and all version of Kakashi bar War Arc and DMS. Still they would kill him in two seconds at best. Juubi Obito didn't have all the Kamui powers plus Perfect Susanoo, even if he had Juubi jinchuriki boost and Gudodama and what not. So it's completely moot point because you are comparing two completely different skillsets.

What are you saying that after that point Kaguya would have "figured Kamui and stomped Kakashi" is only your complete fan fiction without any proof or even logical base, if you want my fan fiction I could as well say that Kakashi was going to Kamui Raikiri her ass to the point that she would be totally beaten and Naruto and Sasuke could seal her easily. Manga canon facts are that Kakashi countered Kaguya's giant form, that Kaguya attacked Kakashi and Kakashi was able to defend, that Kakashi attacked Kaguya and was able to heavily wound her with her unable to counter or defend, that Kakashi stopped Kaguya's counterattack against Naruto and Sasuke. As other people said, Kakashi was the game changer. Kaguya was stomping Sasuke and holding Naruto, Kaguya powered up and then Kakashi came and basically the battle ended thanks to his actions. 

Naruto who didn't have killing intent against him and was on the defensive and wasn't even fighting seriously for most part of the battle? Good thing for him. Naruto dodged Yomotsu Hirasaka, yes. Barely. And DMS Kakashi used long range Kamui after Kaguya stated Yomotsu Hirasaka, and still outspeeded and warped her S/T portal. So I don't see how that helps Sasuke who canonically isn't able to react to said S/T speed, or unable to land physical hits on Kaguya, when Kakashi can do that against a faster and more powerful version of said character.

Kakashi can teleport himself so he doesn't need to reactivate PS to fly. Also he activated it in a millisecond to fly to save Sakura from Kaguya's chakra arms that Sasuke and Naruto deemed to be very fast, so I don't see how Kakashi's PS activation can be a problem here. Not to mention that Kakashi can use clones with great skill, he could fool dojutsu users like Pain and Itachi.

Kakashi could react to Kaguya's S/T which Sasuke couldn't react to and could easily react to Kaguya's attacks even if he himself called them fast. And everything Sasuke can do, from a couple of shuriken to Indra arrow, he can just phase through, or teleport himself away with both eyes plus Rikudo chakra for what is basically a seal less Hiraishin.

Obito was a kid and Minato admitted it was a battle decided on the split second. Kakashi didn't even use Kamui and cornered Pain's strongest body by far plus the second strongest body, Pain even feared to come close to Kakashi even when he was exhausted and defeated, and praised him a lot of times. Kakashi would have casually killed Sasuke if he had wanted to do that.

Obito could have defeated and captured Naruto god knows how many times if it wasn't for Kakashi or Gai or both saving him.

Feats show he can do that easily, sadly. Read 1MS Kakashi's feats .

I'm not arguing that. Feats show that. Also why didn't Obito use Kamui to easily capture Naruto and Bee when they were sleeping instead of declare war to the entire world? Because of plot. Also Kaguya is immortal, she won't die by having her head or chest warped away by Kamui, and with her Amenominka could come back again if her body was entirely warped away with Kamui.


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## Tarot (Aug 23, 2015)

DMS Kakashi was a game changer, but that doesn't automatically put him at the same level as Naruto and Sasuke. 8th Gate Guy only stood a chance against  Madara because Minato and Kakashi were assisting him, and Chiyo only stood a chance against Sasori because of Sakura's help.


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## The Undying (Aug 23, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kakashi shouldn't be stronger than Juubito as he only got the Six path chakra leftovers that Obito stole from Madara. Granted, even a bit of Six path chakra might give great power so for one I think that DMS Kakashi is actually above BM Minato or SM Hashirama but not as strong as Juubito or Juudara both of whom got way more Six path chakra. Juudara in turn was stronger than Juubito since he got more Six Path chakra himself by getting 50% Kurama and full Hachibi instead of fragments of their power.




It doesn't quite work that way; there has been (and continues to be) a clear distinction between an individual's _chakra power/density_ and _chakra amount_ since the manga's early days. Kakashi's possession of chakra leftovers isn't a reflection of how much power that chakra allows him to wield, but rather how long he can wield it for. Moreover, DMS Kakashi's already-powerful Kamui was specifically said to be further enhanced by said Rikudou chakra while Juubito was completely restricted from using his MS at all. 

It's pretty clear that he's comfortably above Juubito by both portrayal and feats. Now whether he's up there with a fully-mastered Rinnegan Sasuke is another matter entirely.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 23, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Facts are that feats show that DMS Kakashi is far above Juubito and comparing both their capabilities and arsenal the gap is even more abysmal. As nonsensical as it can be, the manga showed that. Also this is not Dragon Ball. More chakra is not more power. Part 1 Naruto had probably more chakra than Itachi and all version of Kakashi bar War Arc and DMS. Still they would kill him in two seconds at best. Juubi Obito didn't have all the Kamui powers plus Perfect Susanoo, even if he had Juubi jinchuriki boost and Gudodama and what not. So it's completely moot point because you are comparing two completely different skillsets.
> 
> What are you saying that after that point Kaguya would have "figured Kamui and stomped Kakashi" is only your complete fan fiction without any proof or even logical base, if you want my fan fiction I could as well say that Kakashi was going to Kamui Raikiri her ass to the point that she would be totally beaten and Naruto and Sasuke could seal her easily. Manga canon facts are that Kakashi countered Kaguya's giant form, that Kaguya attacked Kakashi and Kakashi was able to defend, that Kakashi attacked Kaguya and was able to heavily wound her with her unable to counter or defend, that Kakashi stopped Kaguya's counterattack against Naruto and Sasuke. As other people said, Kakashi was the game changer. Kaguya was stomping Sasuke and holding Naruto, Kaguya powered up and then Kakashi came and basically the battle ended thanks to his actions.
> 
> ...



Sadly during the War arc Kishi embraced the concept of "You get lots of powerful chakra= more power". Kaguya was so strong because she had the chakra of all bijuus plus the chakra of MT victims plus probably draining Madara's own chakra too. Clearly she did not owe her position as the strongest being due to her skill or wits in battle. Madara as a JJ was more powerful than Juubito by having more bijuu chakra too. Naruto and Sasuke were so strong because they got tons of powerful chakra from RS. Also why is Kurama the strongest normal bijuu? Because he got the most chakra among bijuus and because his chakra is so strong.

Take away bijuu chakra and MT chakra from Kaguya or RS chakra from Naruto and Sasuke...do you think that their power would not diminish by a HUGE amount? Even Minato needed a bijuu chakra battery to be so impressive in this war while the chakra low Hiruzen was the least impressive hokage.

Kakashi blitzed Kaguya once and you think he is stronger than Naruto and Sasuke? Naruto blitzed her once too and yet it is clear he could not beat her on his own. Sasuke blitzed Shinju Madara THRICE and yet I do not think he could beat him alone despite that.

Naruto not having intent to kill got nothing to do with him being willing to dodge attacks like he did with Kaguya. Do you believe that Kakashi without intent to kill would let Sakura hit him in the face if he could actually dodge said attack? Besides when Sasuke attacked Naruto with Ameno while using PS, Naruto could not even raise his guard to defend. Sasuke having better feats with Ameno against Naruto when compared to his show against Kaguya is also justified as he stated himself that he improved with his rinnegan after said battle.

As for Naruto himself I do not see him barely dodging Kaguya's Yomotsu Hirasaka. He sensed her coming from behind and dodged it like that without commenting on how close it was or anything. Naruto also actually ripped off Kaguya's arm while Kakashi couldn't do that much with Raikiri.

We never saw Kakashi flying via Kamui teleportation and besides his PS might not have been completely destroyed back then as Kaguya aimed at him specifically rather than use of bigger jutsu to destroy his construct. Sasuke's PS could also swing with its sword even after being critically hit with Kaguya's bijuu arms so Kakashi's PS that Sakura used to jump at Kaguya was probably not fully destroyed yet either.

Kaguya never used her s/t against Kakashi. Sasuke could also timely react to her s/t by using Ameno right after a Naruto clone was pierced with those bone projectiles and switching places with it. He also could react by creating a Susanoo arm to protect himself and Naruto from her hair needles.

Minato defeated Obito completely by cutting his arm and removing his control of Kurama. Never in said battle did Obito manage inflict as wound on Minato or anything. Kakashi did not even scratch Deva and needed Chouji and Chouza to put into actions any plans which did not result with Deva's harm...much less demise. 

I only recall one time when Obito could have captured Naruto and it was just before Guy and Kakashi appeared. Also it was mainly due to Obito's Neo Pain rather than Obito overwhelming Naruto on his own. Guy himself could avoid being sucked by the "godly" Kamui despite challenging Obito one-on-one and being in "base".

Well, we could all argue about plot stuff. Like why Sasuke did not use his chakra sword against Naruto when attacking with Ameno rather than a regular chidori, or why Sakura did not use Byakugou against Shin, or why Naruto is not using his shunshin all the time, or why Madara stopped using Preta and PS after becoming a JJ,etc.

That said Kakashi did not see himself capable of doing much with his Kamui against Juubi Madara or against Deva or by trying to rip off Kaguya's head to make the battle easier.


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Sadly during the War arc Kishi embraced the concept of "You get lots of powerful chakra= more power". Kaguya was so strong because she had the chakra of all bijuus plus the chakra of MT victims plus probably draining Madara's own chakra too. Clearly she did not owe her position as the strongest being due to her skill or wits in battle. Madara as a JJ was more powerful than Juubito by having more bijuu chakra too. Naruto and Sasuke were so strong because they got tons of powerful chakra from RS. Also why is Kurama the strongest normal bijuu? Because he got the most chakra among bijuus and because his chakra is so strong.
> 
> Take away bijuu chakra and MT chakra from Kaguya or RS chakra from Naruto and Sasuke...do you think that their power would not diminish by a HUGE amount? Even Minato needed a bijuu chakra battery to be so impressive in this war while the chakra low Hiruzen was the least impressive hokage.
> 
> ...



And Kakashi was so strong because he received Rikudo chakra to amp the arguably more haxxed, certainly one of the most hax, dojutsu in the manga, plus Rikudo enhanced PS raw power. Plus all his other skills and jutsu enhanced. I agree that he received less chakra so shouldn't able to perform at that level, but Kishimoto did make him able to perform at that level, so he is.

Yeah true but more chakra doesn't mean more power for sure, as I said, part 1 Naruto has more chakra than Itachi or than every version of Kakashi bar War Arc and DMS and they would kill him in a second. Kisame has far more chakra than Itachi or non DMS Kakashi yet they would kill him. And so on.

I think that he is stronger not only because of that, but because he was able to defend himself from Kaguya and counter her moves and attack and wound her all by himself; and also because his skillset is even better than their.

You know, the gap from Sakura to Kakashi is just "a little" bigger than the gap from Sasuke to Naruto... when two people have very close levels, if one fights aggressively and with intent to kill when the other fights only on the defensive and without intent to kill, the first will heavily pressure the second even if generally the second is more powerful.

Hy dodged by a hair. And when Kaguya used it to counter him and Sasuke, he wasn't able to move away in time, if Kakashi didn't counter with Kamui Naruto would have died there.

No, it wasn't destroyed, only the zone where Kakashi was. I didn't say he could fly by teleporting, just that he could teleporting above, in mid air, where he can reactivate PS and fly with it.

She used it and Kakashi was able to react and perform his jutsu before her S/T even completed, he made it look slow for hell's sake. I don't get what reaction is, Sasuke didn't react to anything there actually, he just timed his jutsu, not used it in reaction to something. Her hair needles are nowhere close to her S/T speed, since Sasuke could easily react to the first while couldn't do anything in time to defend from the second.

Minato said that the battle was going to be decided on a split second, he won but if he was just a little slower Obito would have won; and that's KID Obito, not adult Obito. Kakashi didn't need Choza and Choji at all, they only attacked Deva and pulled the chains that Kakashi prepared, Kakashi could have used a couple of clones to do the same; Choza and Choji actually hindered him by fucking up his strategy when he had Asura paralyzed and Deva who had just used his gravitational powers and didn't know where Kakashi was, Kakashi was going to kill Deva with silent blitz with Raikiri (as he did against Kakuzu) but then Choza and Choji attacked, but they were too slow and Deva easily dodged them. Kakashi cornered Pain's strongest body without any need of his trump card, that's impressive. With Mangekyo he would have won, but he actually didn't need that.

Naruto needed to be saved from Obito also here, here and here. Here too actually. And he would have never been able to "defeat" Obito there without Kakashi, and Gai too. And before Kakashi recognised that the jutsu Obito was using could be countered by his own jutsu, Obito was holding his own perfectly against Naruto, Kakashi, Gai and Bee. Naruto admitted how Obito was strong and how he was giving him great trouble here.

Well, I said that there were other reason to plot. And anyway Kakashi was nearly blind when there was Juubi Madara, didn't need Kamui (or actually: wouldn't have needed to use Kamui) to defeat Deva Pain, and Kamui probably wouldn't have defeated Kaguya because as said she won't die by losing her head or chest or whatever part of the body, nor she would remain imprisoned in the other dimension.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 23, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sasuke could even throw an atomic bomb, Kakashi would just casually phase through that and everything he would dish, or teleport himself away and then reappear right behind Sasuke, them Kamui Raikiri and GG. While Sasuke can't defend from Kakashi warping his head off with Kamui, Sasuke couldn't do anything in time to avoid Kaguya's S/T, and DMS Kakashi proved that his usage of long range Kamui is even faster than that, outspeeding said S/T jutsu.
> 
> Amenotejikara usage is also limited (it can't be spammed because it needs to be recharged and it also doesn't work after a certain distance) while Kakashi can spam his offense and defense without any problem, and is also smarter.



1. Kamui has never outsped Kaguya's S/T itself.
2. His usage of long ranged Kamui is no different from when Obito had it in the Manga.
3. Kakashi can't react to Ameno.

The moment he becomes solid is the moment he dies.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 23, 2015)

None of Sasuke's attacks are faster than Ash Bones, so there's generally no way he's hitting him before he phases. 

Sasuke can't consistently avoid his ranged Kamui, let alone his Kamui Raikiri, that blitzed a stronger version of a god that reacted to Sasuke's greatest speed (Amenotejikara) two times, and whom by which Sasuke never landed an attack on without Naruto's help. 

If we're taking Kage Bunshin into consideration- Sasuke is in a lot of trouble. Kakashi can probably summon thousands of copies of himself (clearly a far superior chakra pool compared to Kid Naruto, who summoned 2,000 clones in PTS), and that makes a ranged Kamui head shot or blindside (via teleport) very easy for Kakashi. 

Bottom line being Kakashi's techniques are faster (warped ash bone before it could move a meter), his reactions are faster (reacted to Ash Bone twice), his techniques are superior (in both S/T and PS), and his movement is faster (Blitzed Perfect Form Kaguya).


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## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> 1. Kamui has never outsped Kaguya's S/T itself.
> 2. His usage of long ranged Kamui is no different from when Obito had it in the Manga.
> 3. Kakashi can't react to Ameno.
> 
> The moment he becomes solid is the moment he dies.



Oh, really? Obito was able to teleport himself, Sakura and a clone of Naruto before Kaguya's S/T could complete. And Kamui self teleporting is canonically slower than long range Kamui warping. Kakashi could use his long range Kamui to outspeed Kaguya's S/T, he managed to warp away the portal of her S/T before her jutsu could complete. He used his long range Kamui to outspeed the teleportation portal and warp away both it and the bone projectile before the teleporting could complete, if one it's not blind or biased, it's easy to see that the black portal that was opening before is magically no more after Kamui warp ()(). DMS Kakashi made Kaguya's S/T look like slow in comparison of his Kamui offensive warp, and Kaguya's S/T was too fast for Sasuke to do anything.

I don't know what you are saying with that. With long range Kamui, I refer to the space-time barrier offense, the good old Kamui GG.

Prove it. Do yo have proof other than your opinion? Not to mention that he can camp away from Sasuke, since Amenotejikara doesn't work after a certain distance, staying in PS. Then he can teleport behind Sasuke, at maximized speed with both eyes plus Rikudo chakra: KCM Naruto couldn't react to a one-eyed Kamui teleporting at his back (3), Rinnegan Sasuke is much faster and better but I don't really know if he is reacting to double-eyed Kamui teleporting at his back (furtherly enhanced by the usage of Rikudo chakra); I really would say not, because Sasuke wasn't able to react in time to Kaguya's S/T, and Obito was able to teleport himself, Sakura and a Naruto clone faster than Kaguya's S/T portal could close; so Kakashi alone would be even faster than that, and he would kill Sasuke from the back with Kamui Raikiri. Even if Sasuke reacts (which by feats comparison he won't) and tries something with Amenotejikara or whatever, Kakashi will just phase and kill him with Kamui Raikiri.



DaVizWiz said:


> None of Sasuke's attacks are faster than Ash Bones, so there's generally no way he's hitting him before he phases.
> 
> Sasuke can't consistently avoid his ranged Kamui, let alone his Kamui Raikiri, that blitzed a stronger version of a god that reacted to Sasuke's greatest speed (Amenotejikara) two times, and whom by which Sasuke never landed an attack on without Naruto's help.
> 
> ...



It's always good when someone actually reads the manga and bases his posting on actual manga feats. I don't know why most people try to downplay or ignore DMS Rikudo Kakashi's feats, blame Kishimoto who made him too strong but please don't make a fool of yourself about denying manga canon.

To what you said I'd add that Kakashi is smarter and that Sasuke couldn't to anything in time to avoid Kaguya's S/T while long range Kamui outspeeded it by far (so Sasuke would be completely unable to run away from it with Amenotejikara; not to mention that Kakashi could spam it, while Sasuke cannot use Amenotejikara as much) and while a double MS + Rikudo chakra self teleporting was faster than that even when used by on the verge of death Obito (hence Kakashi can teleport himself behind Sasuke with Sasuke unable to react in time).


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## Arles Celes (Aug 24, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> It's always good when someone actually reads the manga and bases his posting on actual manga feats. I don't know why most people try to downplay or ignore DMS Rikudo Kakashi's feats, blame Kishimoto who made him too strong but please don't make a fool of yourself about denying manga canon.
> 
> To what you said I'd add that Kakashi is smarter and that Sasuke couldn't to anything in time to avoid Kaguya's S/T while long range Kamui outspeeded it by far (so Sasuke would be completely unable to run away from it with Amenotejikara; not to mention that Kakashi could spam it, while Sasuke cannot use Amenotejikara as much) and while a double MS + Rikudo chakra self teleporting was faster than that even when used by on the verge of death Obito (hence Kakashi can teleport himself behind Sasuke with Sasuke unable to react in time).



Naruto avoided Kaguya's bones a couple of times and Sasuke avoided it once too despite being affected by Kaguya's gravity. Kaguya only blitzed Sasuke once and besides destroying his PS-which she did with Kakashi's PS too- she hardly accomplished so again nor inflicted any serious damage on either him or Naruto.

Kakashi was able to react to Kakashi's s/t simply by not being the target of said attacks and knowing that she will use it against Naruto and Sasuke so all he had to do was keeping an eye on those two. 

How would Kakashi react if Kaguya used said s/t to attack him from behind? How COULD he react to said attack without Six Path Senjutsu sensing? Especially if Kaguya used partial s/t of her body parts for the first time like against Sasuke?

Kakashi hardly spammed Kamui all that much against Kaguya tbh. Sasuke could use Ameno against Madara 3 times in one chapter and did not comment on it needing to be charged afterwards. In fact that only happened once after he used Ameno in the following chapters like 5-7 times more.

And when did Kakashi show crazy teleport feats after getting Six Path chakra? He just used PS as a platform to strike at Kaguya when she was off guard and confused when her bones did not kill him. Kamui shuriken were not a show of Kakashi teleporting crazy fast either.

Sasuke with full Rinnegan mastery can simply teleport Kakashi to him, attack with chidori and if Kakashi tries/manages to counter somehow thanks to intangibility Sasuke can easily deal with it via Preta which was stated to be potentially able to be used along with offensive attacks. Or with ST which cannot be seen coming.

Or how will Kakashi handle Sasuke genjutsu which impressed even RS? In Sakura's case he did not even face her to put her in a genjutsu. And Kakashi could not wake her up it seems.

Also Kakashi while smart never managed to defeat any significant opponent aside from Zabuza. Fighting Deidara-who survived- sent him to an hospital, fighting Kakuzu almost did cost him his life and he stated that while he could potentially win it would result in a travel to the hospital again and he himself admitted that Itachi is beyond him and he needs Naruto's help. An exhausted and wounded MS Sasuke almost killed him and Obito did let him stab him in order to become a Juubi Jin.


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## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Naruto avoided Kaguya's bones a couple of times and Sasuke avoided it once too despite being affected by Kaguya's gravity. Kaguya only blitzed Sasuke once and besides destroying his PS-which she did with Kakashi's PS too- she hardly accomplished so again nor inflicted any serious damage on either him or Naruto.
> 
> Kakashi was able to react to Kakashi's s/t simply by not being the target of said attacks and knowing that she will use it against Naruto and Sasuke so all he had to do was keeping an eye on those two.
> 
> ...


Kakashi was in free fall far from Naruto, Sasuke and Kaguya and witnessed the portal opening on Naruto's face and was able to react to the jutsu and use his jutsu before the other jutsu (already started with the first portal located close to Black Zetsu that already connected with the second created near Naruto) could end. So Kakashi's reactions are far faster than Kaguya's S/T and his long range Kamui is far faster too. Kaguya didn't sneak attack Sasuke, she was right in front of him and Naruto when she opened the portal, they already witnessed it before, so Sasuke had to expect that opening a portal in front of herself meant that she was going to connect it with another she would have opened next to him or behind him. It was just too fast for Sasuke to do anything. Kaguya doesn't just open portal behind; she opens two portals, one next to her and the second next to the objective, that she connects. So no sneak attack, no surprise excuses or whatever. One could react, another couldn't.

She wasn't off guard, no excuses please. She witnessed him starting to dash at her from a frontal position. No excuses, she dodged Sasuke appearing at her back from nothingness, she could have dodged Kakashi if she was able to do that, Kishimoto could have make her counter Kakashi but Kakashi still phase through her counter and striker her, but he didn't, it was also to show Kakashi's speed, as the databook also says (1). Kakashi blitzed her, plain and simple.

He didn't use that but at the very least has Obito's feat, Obito was able to teleport himself plus two people faster than Kaguya's S/T could complete, and Kaguya's S/T was too fast for Sasuke. Sasuke wouldn't even react to Kakashi teleporting at his back by simple feats comparison. And the funny thing is that even if he reacts, Kakashi will phase and hit him.

If Kakashi phases Sasuke can't do anything with Preta, Shinra Tensei, Amenotejikara, Chidori, Enton or whatever else. Alslo he can use clone feints and by camping at distance he can just nullify Amenotejikara since it doesn't work after a certain distance (a few tens of metres).

As I said, Rinnegan genjutsu could be the only way for Sasuke to defeat Kakashi, but Kakashi has definitely more chances with long range Kamui or Kamui teleporting + Kamui Raikiri. I don't think that no Sharingan Kakashi can be compared to DMS Rikudo Kakashi, not even remotely, so no Sharingan Kakashi being unable to so something doesn't have anything with a far stronger version of Kakashi being unable too.

This is irrelevant to this thread with this version of Kakashi and this version of Sasuke. Not to mention that Deidara literally feared him. was trying to avoid as best as he can to fight Kakashi at the beginning of Shippuden, even trying to make him go against Sasori to help Sakura and Chiyo, saying that Sasori was even stronger than he was, so Kakashi should have let Naruto fight alone to go help Sakura and Chiyo instead. Deidara was at Kakashi's mercy even when Kakashi was at his beginning with Mangekyo (2)(3) even saying that Kakashi's dojutsu (far for being at his best at that time, since he will gain full mastery of Kamui only in later Shippuden arcs) was on Itachi's level. Kakashi admitting he wasn't on Itachi level yet it's true, but that was beginning of Shippuden Kakashi; War Arc Kakashi has Mangekyo mastery that he didn't have at that time, far more chakra and new jutsu; Kakashi also still outmanouvred Itachi with ease that time (Shoten Itachi had 30% of Itachi's total chakra but perfectly equal skills in taijutsu, speed, everything) and also just a couple of arcs later Kakashi was confident that he plus pre SM Naruto, Yamato and K11 fodders would have been able to defeat and capture alive Itachi and Kisame, which is even more difficult than defeat and kill them, so to speak. Kakashi didn't want to kill Sasuke until the end when he decided to do that, he textually stated it, he never really attacked him and was only on the defensive, if he wanted to kill him it would have been very easy to just warp him or Raikiri him when he was with hands on his eyes because of the pain and the blindness. Anyway, as said, all of this is irrelevant to this thread with this version of Kakashi and this version of Sasuke.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 24, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi was in free fall far from Naruto, Sasuke and Kaguya and witnessed the portal opening on Naruto's face and was able to react to the jutsu and use his jutsu before the other jutsu (already started with the first portal located close to Black Zetsu that already connected with the second created near Naruto) could end. So Kakashi's reactions are far faster than Kaguya's S/T and his long range Kamui is far faster too. Kaguya didn't sneak attack Sasuke, she was right in front of him and Naruto when she opened the portal, they already witnessed it before, so Sasuke had to expect that opening a portal in front of herself meant that she was going to connect it with another she would have opened next to him or behind him. It was just too fast for Sasuke to do anything. Kaguya doesn't just open portal behind; she opens two portals, one next to her and the second next to the objective, that she connects. So no sneak attack, no surprise excuses or whatever. One could react, another couldn't.
> 
> She wasn't off guard, no excuses please. She witnessed him starting to dash at her from a frontal position. No excuses, she dodged Sasuke appearing at her back from nothingness, she could have dodged Kakashi if she was able to do that, Kishimoto could have make her counter Kakashi but Kakashi still phase through her counter and striker her, but he didn't, it was also to show Kakashi's speed, as the databook also says (1). Kakashi blitzed her, plain and simple.
> 
> ...



By knowing that the Sasuke who attacked was a bunshin Kakashi just had to focus on the real Naruto and make sure no attacks were appearing around him. Far different from when the enemy can target anyone. 

Naruto and Sasuke witnessed Kaguya entering a Yomotsu Hirasaka portal before but they did not see her teleporting individual parts of her body. Sasuke's attention was focused on Kaguya herself and he was caught off guard when her arm suddenly appeared behind him grabbing him to another dimension...while Kaguya herself was still in front of him.

That said many s/t are particularly effect when the target does not expect said attack or is caught off guard somehow.  For example, Juubito was hit by SM Naruto's rasengan even though Tobirama's hirashin is slower than Minato's and Juubito got a huge power increase since he fought Minato. 

Most of the most effective s/t were used by the person striking from behind. Minato smacked Obito in the back, Tobirama teleported successfully behind Obito and Sasuke after the fight with Kaguya also started attacking from behind with Ameno instead of how he teleported in front of Kaguya...which still forced her to use her own s/t and draining her power significantly.

With knowledge of how Kaguya's s/t works even a Naruto RSM clone, who is quite weaker than the original, could dodge a s/t attack from Kaguya. I wonder how Kakashi would react with no knowledge to an attack that he can't see coming and lacks hype as a great sensor.

If Kakashi phases he still won't be able to land a hit on Sasuke if the latter surrounds himself with an Enton shield or those spikes that he used to break free of Kaguya's ice.. Becoming tangible would cost Kakashi his life and Sasuke with perfect Rinnegan mastery could potentially keep Preta activated while enacting such shield. So even if Kakashi pierced said shield with Raikiri it would not hurt Sasuke as it would be absorbed by Preta while Kakashi would pay for becoming tangible with his arm at the very least. 

And how Kakashi would be able to react to an attack like ST that is invisible? Kamui's weakness is that the user needs to see an attack coming otherwise he is "Minato'd".


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