# Cracker VS Fujitora



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 21, 2018)

Location: Dressrosa
Mindset : Bloodlusted

What diff could Cracker give Issho/Fujitora ?


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## MO (Mar 21, 2018)

midd diff.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

Fujitora does his best impression of the cannonball attack with Raging Tiger.

He mid diffs Cracker, this is a terrible matchup for him

Edit: Just reread and saw "bloodlusted." Fujitora might stomp, Cracker's low pain threshold screws him over holy shit.


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## GilDLax (Mar 21, 2018)

Low-diff if Fuji goes all-out. Mid-diff if he relies on close combat alone.


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## Luke (Mar 21, 2018)

Fujitora wins, mid difficulty.


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## Gohara (Mar 21, 2018)

I like to think that Fujitora wins that match up more often than not but I'm not entirely sure how outside of outlasting his opponent through assumed superior stamina.  The Meteors can possibly destroy some Biscuit Soldiers but they can be regenerated.  And if Sabo and Zoro can resist the gravity I don't see why the Biscuit Soldiers wouldn't be able to.  But still I don't know about an average 3rd Yonkou Commander besting an Admiral and Fujitora having around the same degree of stamina as Akainu and Aokiji seems like a reasonable possibility.


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## Samehadaman (Mar 21, 2018)

Takes Fujitora half minute to figure out about Cracker real body thing, then CoO where it is.
Gravity clears a path among the biscuit soldiers easily, then he deals with real Cracker after some back and forth.

Wouldn't expect Fujitora to take damage here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I like to think that Fujitora wins that match up more often than not but I'm not entirely sure how outside of outlasting his opponent through assumed superior stamina.  The Meteors can possibly destroy some Biscuit Soldiers but they can be regenerated.  And if Sabo and Zoro can resist the gravity I don't see why the Biscuit Soldiers wouldn't be able to.  But still I don't know about an average 3rd Yonkou Commander besting an Admiral and Fujitora having around the same degree of stamina as Akainu and Aokiji seems like a reasonable possibility.



You're entering @Erkan12 territory with this post, Gohara.

The meteors can _possibly _destroy the biscuits?

The biscuits can _resist _Fujitora's gravity?

You _don't know _if an average 3rd yonkou commander can best an *admiral*?

Fujitora is _assumed _to have better stamina?

Fujitora _wins more often than not _implying he would ever lose?

Even the biggest Fujitora detractors here can admit he definitely beats Cracker. Fujitora is an admiral for a reason. He didn't get that title just so that he's stuck in extreme diff fights either way with someone who is literally one shot material.

Your line of thinking is 100% biased.

Cracker doesn't use haki on any of the biscuits he isn't inside of, at any point during the 11 hour fight.

"Cracker can probably use haki on all of his biscuits to defend."

Fujitora doesn't use haki to defend against G3 and repeatedly mentions he's not serious.

"Fujitora probably wasn't holding back in that scenario."

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Samehadaman (Mar 21, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> You're entering @Erkan12 territory with this post, Gohara.
> 
> The meteors can _possibly _destroy the biscuits?
> 
> ...




Haha poor Erkan! It's the other way around.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Gohara (Mar 21, 2018)

"The meteors can _possibly _destroy the biscuits?"

You're looking too much into the wording.  I try to avoid implying points as facts if they're not factual.  It depends on how many Biscuit Soldiers.  And if the Meteor lands directly and/or if we're discussing side effects, so I'm simply using wording that can work based on multiple different ideas.

"The biscuits can _resist _Fujitora's gravity?"

If Sabo and Zoro can I don't see why Biscuit Soldiers can't at all.

"You _don't know _if an average 3rd yonkou commander can best an admiral?"

What the word Admiral means varies based on our rankings.  To you it's like a fan suggesting "I'm not sure that an average 3rd Yonkou Commander can best a Yonkou".  You're asking that question and for some reason thinking of your own ranking of the Admirals.  And besides, you're accusing me of speculation from my arguments always favoring the Yonkou Commanders against the Admirals but aren't I actually speculating in favor of Fujitora?

"Fujitora is _assumed _to have better stamina?"

That is another point that I'm speculating in favor of Fujitora.  Some Admirals having that degree of stamina doesn't necessarily suggest that all Admirals do.

"Fujitora _wins more often than not _implying he would ever lose?"

Why would I rule out any possibilities when we've never seen that type of match up and characters comparable to Lord Cracker have consistently matched up on par with Admirals?

"Even the biggest Fujitora detractors here can admit he definitely beats Cracker."

What Fujitora detractors?  And I'm not a Fujitora detractor at all.  There are multiple points that I'm speculating in favor of Fujitora.

"Cracker doesn't use haki on any of the biscuits he isn't inside of, at any point during the 11 hour fight.

"Cracker can probably use haki on all of his biscuits to defend.""

We have yet to see Fujitora use Armanent Haki.  But we still assume that he can reasonably do so.  We have yet to see any of the Admirals use King's Haki.  I speculate that the Admirals can use King's Haki.

Lord Cracker being able to apply Haki to his weapons is a reasonable assumption because we know that characters in One Piece can do that.  Why wouldn't we assume that a character who is elite even in the New World wouldn't be able to utilize a basic skill?  I assume that the Admirals can utilize basic skills a lot even though we have yet to see them use those skills.  And I'm not sure why you're suggesting that Lord Cracker doesn't use Armanent Haki on any of his Biscuit Soldiers when a lot of that match up is off panel.

"Fujitora doesn't use haki to defend against G3 and repeatedly mentions he's not serious.

"Fujitora probably wasn't holding back in that scenario.""

Fujitora doesn't suggest anything about not being serious in that match up.  Also Fujitora doesn't use all of his techniques in that match up so I agree that he doesn't go all out in that sense but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not trying and plus those same points can be made about Luffy.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 21, 2018)

Gohara said:


> And I'm not a Fujitora detractor at all.















Of course this is all IMHO.

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 21, 2018)

Gohara, you aren't speculating in favor of Fujitora, you're merely stating the obvious. He doesn't need the benefit of the doubt to defeat an opponent that Luffy beat with an attack that is extremely similar to his own Raging Tiger. 

Fujitora's gravity isn't something that can easily be dodged. Sabo only avoided it because he was a logia. The manga confirms that. Zoro and Law got free from the gravity because they both could just barely move their arms and disrupt Fujitora. Fujitora controls the weight specifically so he doesn't kill people, we've seen him increase it to the point that he can bring a meteor down. 

Cracker's entire offense is reliant on his biscuits being in front of him. Why can't Fujitora squash or lift them all when we've literally seen him lift a lot more weight and more objects? Why couldn't a meteor destroy a biscuit that if wet can be eaten?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Raiden34 (Mar 22, 2018)

I did see a comment that says Fujitora was holding back against Luffy as if Luffy wasn't holding back against ''the blind ossan he likes''. Is there another one here? I didn't read all the comments since I got a notification due to some troll calling my name.

Fujitora's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy was inferior to Cracker's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy. Anyone who denies this is should be extremely bias towards to Admirals. I mean it's there and it's obvious.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 22, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I did see a comment that says Fujitora was holding back against Luffy as if Luffy wasn't holding back against ''the blind ossan he likes''. Is there another one here? I didn't read all the comments since I got a notification due to some troll calling my name.
> 
> Fujitora's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy was inferior to Cracker's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy. Anyone who denies this is should be extremely bias towards to Admirals. I mean it's there and it's obvious.


Fujitora in his fight against Luffy:

Fujitora: .... If you mean to anger me, you have succeeded. *I will remove your head from your body forthwith*...!!!
Fujitora: *What good will that mercy do you?!!! / I thought you better than this!! Your words are ridiculous beyond measure!* // Gravitou.
[TN: “Gravity Blade”]
Fujitora: *When two men face one another in battle, they have their status to uphold!!!*
Fujitora: *Are you truly a fool......?! // *pant* // ......!!! Here I am, staying true to my position no matter how I may feel...!!! // *pant**

Then 2 mins later he tries to execute Luffy and the alliance to shield them from the hell of facing a Yonkou.

People like Admiral Kizaru will actively ignore that Fujitora said he was serious and acting despite his feelings  You can't convince someone who will continually lie to themselves to support their delusional views. When you have to actively ignore manga panels so that your view doesn't fall apart like a paper tiger, you know you've lost.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Raiden34 (Mar 22, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Fujitora in his fight against Luffy:
> 
> Fujitora: .... If you mean to anger me, you have succeeded. *I will remove your head from your body forthwith*...!!!
> Fujitora: *What good will that mercy do you?!!! / I thought you better than this!! Your words are ridiculous beyond measure!* // Gravitou.
> ...


Even if we say Fujitora wasn't serious, then so was Luffy, Luffy was holding back his G4 powers and he didn't really want to hurt ''blind ossan'' because he likes him.

You can't expect from someone with ''Admiral'' nickname to be objective when it comes to Admiral discussions.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 22, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Fujitora in his fight against Luffy:
> 
> Fujitora: .... If you mean to anger me, you have succeeded. *I will remove your head from your body forthwith*...!!!
> Fujitora: *What good will that mercy do you?!!! / I thought you better than this!! Your words are ridiculous beyond measure!* // Gravitou.
> ...



Where would you rank Fujitora?


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 22, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Even if we say Fujitora wasn't serious, then so was Luffy, Luffy was holding back his G4 powers and he didn't really want to hurt ''blind ossan'' because he likes him.
> 
> You can't expect from someone with ''Admiral'' nickname to be objective when it comes to Admiral discussions.



No one is trying to say Luffy was serious, this whole discussion started because people keep “speculating” that Fujitora put his heart and soul into blocking that G3 punch. Someone even said he was using “invisible haki.”

The takeaway just needs to be that neither one was serious, and that this fight shouldn’t have any bearing on how Fujitora is ranked. He visibly struggles with himself to fight Luffy, he acts reluctant, and he doesn’t use half the moves he did on others. Luffy as you pointed out says he likes Fuji and tells him how to dodge.

We can agree that no rational person should conclude either one was serious.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 22, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I did see a comment that says Fujitora was holding back against Luffy as if Luffy wasn't holding back against ''the blind ossan he likes''. Is there another one here? I didn't read all the comments since I got a notification due to some troll calling my name.
> 
> *Fujitora's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy was inferior to Cracker's portrayal against G2-G3 Luffy*. Anyone who denies this is should be extremely bias towards to Admirals. I mean it's there and it's obvious.



I assume you’re saying Cracker had superior portrayal in the defense department since we didn’t see Luffy fight Cracker for an extended period of time in g2/g3 before g4 and Nami’s rain came along. In that case:

Cracker used haki. Fujitora didn’t.

Cracker blocked with his DF.

Fujitora didn’t.

Now stay with me on this:

Cracker fought G2/G3 Luffy off panel for 11 hours while Luffy ran around and literally ate his biscuits. For 11 hours. Yes, Nami weakened the biscuits, but surely rain doesn’t affect Cracker himself? What does Gohara like to say? Couldn’t Cracker use his infinite haki to shield himself in a suit and his puppets

Superior portrayal against G2/G3 when all he did was literally block with haki with his defensive specialist DF. Did you see how fat Luffy got? Cracker couldn’t beat that? You think Fujitora wouldn’t be able to beat a literally out of shape Luffy who’s eating?


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## Imagine (Mar 22, 2018)

Y'all will ''debate'' about some of the most minuscule shit I swear. Fujitora wins. Move on.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Useful 1


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2018)

"Gohara, you aren't speculating in favor of Fujitora, you're merely stating the obvious."

Fujitora being one of the most skilled swordsmen in the series and knowing King's Haki are not obvious and yet I speculate in favor of Fujitora for both.

"He doesn't need the benefit of the doubt to defeat an opponent that Luffy beat with an attack that is extremely similar to his own Raging Tiger."

We have no way of comparing Luffy's and Fujitora's techniques.  And there's no obvious evidence as to how Fujitora wins that match up.  I'm speculating in favor of Fujitora.

"Sabo only avoided it because he was a logia. The manga confirms that."

How does it confirm that though?  And again Zoro can resist Fujitora's gravity and Lord Cracker is superior to Zoro.

"Why can't Fujitora squash or lift them all when we've literally seen him lift a lot more weight and more objects?"

It's not just about weight.  Zoro doesn't weigh even 0.0000000000000001% of what Fujitora can summon and yet Zoro can resist Fujitora's gravity.  Characters can apply force that inanimate objects can't.  Furthermore Lord Cracker can simply continue creating Biscuit Soldiers which then makes it a match up of stamina.

"Why couldn't a meteor destroy a biscuit that if wet can be eaten?"

The Biscuit Soldiers being wet counters the durability of them.


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 23, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Where would you rank Fujitora?


As strong as Kizaru.



DoctorLaw said:


> The takeaway just needs to be that neither one was serious, and that this fight shouldn’t have any bearing on how Fujitora is ranked. He visibly struggles with himself to fight Luffy, he acts reluctant, and he doesn’t use half the moves he did on others. Luffy as you pointed out says he likes Fuji and tells him how to dodge.
> 
> We can agree that no rational person should conclude either one was serious.



A rational person would base their opinions on what he said. What a strange thought huh. When talking about the material we actually read the fucking material. He was not playing around in that encounter as I quoted. Do you have any quotes from him in that fight that indicate otherwise?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Djomla (Mar 23, 2018)

Fujitora spanks. Like he would spank any commander. Like any Admiral would.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Dellinger (Mar 23, 2018)

Lmao Fujitora one shots him

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Katou (Mar 23, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 23, 2018)

Fujitora destroys cracker

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 23, 2018)

Depends on the strategy Cracker is using. Normally it would be low-mid if he is going on the offensive. But if Cracker settles down for a defensive fight to stall Fujitora I think he can push to a high difficulty. Not because Fujitora's attacks are weak, because Cracker has speed and his armors are reformed instantaneously, and you have to factor in Fujitora actually has to repel and survive his own meteors. So in just stalling Cracker might prove to be difficult.

But it could be a low-mid anyways because Fujitora is the perceptive type and might figure it out and take him out without much difficulty.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 25, 2018)

Imagine said:


> Y'all will ''debate'' about some of the most minuscule shit I swear. Fujitora wins. Move on.


It wouldn't be the OL if that wasn't the case.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 25, 2018)

Imagine said:


> Y'all will ''debate'' about some of the most minuscule shit I swear. Fujitora wins. Move on.



Wait are you telling me that Fujitora bending down really slowly to pick up his walking stick (chapter 743, page 8, panel 5) isn't a clear, deliberate and well thought out signal from Oda to us the influential OL tiers specialists to emphasize that Fujitora is slow as fuck and that Lord Cracker would easily blitz him and destroy him here?  





Of course this is all IMHO.


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## Gohara (Mar 25, 2018)

Tale said:


> Just because Fujitora stated he was serious in his convictions doesn't mean he was fighting all out against Luffy up to that point (and how many fights in this manga start with people using their best attacks and strongest moves...?)



Going all out and matching up seriously are not always the same thing though.  I agree that going all out in the sense of a character using all their techniques is not necessarily likely in brief clashes but that doesn't necessarily suggest that Fujitora wasn't matching up seriously.



Tale said:


> The alternative (suggested by the Fujitora detractors) is that Fuji was having trouble with an injured G2/3 Luffy



The point isn't that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy is around equal to Fujitora but rather a comparison of their physical strength.  And it's not even as much of a comparison of Gear 3rd Luffy and Fujitora in physical strength as it is a comparison of Gear 4th Luffy and Fujitora in physical strength.  Because Gear 4th is several times physically superior to Gear 3rd.

What characters are you referring to when you suggest that characters far inferior to Fujitora have matched up on par with Gear 3rd Luffy?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Mar 25, 2018)

@ Tale.

I don't think that Fujitora was going all out but I assume that you're asking for evidence for Fujitora matching up seriously.  And really the only skirmish in that clash that I find significant is specifically when Gear 3rd Luffy clashes with Fujitora, since Fujitora presumably doesn't want to get sent flying and/or get punched in the face as well as using his sword to defend it seems reasonable that his character is matching seriously.  Like I said though there's a difference between not going all out and not matching up seriously.

The thing about using top Yonkou Commander level characters as examples is that many Yonkou > Admiral fans consider those types of characters to be of a comparable caliber to the Admirals.  And I don't at all agree about those characters lacking a global presence.  Their bounties speak for themselves.  And Lord Katakuri is stated to have a legendary undefeated record even though the pirate crew consistently travels around the most powerful area of the universe.  And we know that The Gorosei holds Marco in high regard and Lord Katakuri is the same rank as Marco.


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## Gohara (Mar 25, 2018)

Are you disagreeing that Fujitora not wanting to get sent flying and/or punched in the face is evidence?  I say presumably because technically Fujitora doesn't come out and say that.  But presumably Fujitora doesn't like getting sent flying and/or punched in the face like how presumably the moon is going to be in the sky the next day.

I don't know about a huge difference.  But you're saying that as if it's a comparison of overall power level and skills.  We're simply discussing physical strength.  There's nothing wrong with a top Yonkou Commander being physically superior to Fujitora.

If we were looking too much into that clash as you suggest we would be suggesting that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy is equal to Fujitora in overall power level.


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## Geralt-Singh (Mar 25, 2018)

Guess who wins


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## Gohara (Mar 25, 2018)

You're right, Aokiji made no effort to resist at all.  But Fujitora did.  He raised his sword in defense.  And unlike that comparison where Luffy literally can't even touch Aokiji, a punch from Gear 3rd Luffy is going to do more than tickle.

Burgess being a Yonkou Commander doesn't say a lot because Lord Montdor is also a Yonkou Commander.  And if I remember correctly the only time that Fujitora and Sabo actually clashed physically, Fujitora's reaction is "nghhhh!!!!".  Which could be the same panel(s) that you're referring to.  I don't know that for sure disagrees with what you're arguing but I also don't think that it matters because although Sabo is without question superior to Gear 3rd Luffy in overall power level and skills, it wouldn't be strange if Gear 3rd Luffy were physically superior.

Maybe the World Government said "Hey with a powerful Devil Fruit that character would be worthy of being an Admiral so let's give him the Gravity Fruit"?  The characters that you're naming are obviously occupied with different roles.  And we have yet to see characters of that caliber who are free to be drafted.  And there's no rule that a character has to be physically on par with or superior to Gear 3rd Luffy to be an Admiral.

I would argue that Gear 3rd Luffy ranks pretty high in physical strength.  You make it seem like he's somewhat of a chump in comparison to a lot of high ranking characters.  But in my opinion his physical strength is top Yonkou Commander level even without Gear 4th.


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## Imagine (Mar 25, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Wait are you telling me that Fujitora bending down really slowly to pick up his walking stick (chapter 743, page 8, panel 5) isn't a clear, deliberate and well thought out signal from Oda to us the influential OL tiers specialists to emphasize that Fujitora is slow as fuck and that Lord Cracker would easily blitz him and destroy him here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't test me, old man

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Shrike (Mar 25, 2018)

Low.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gohara (Mar 25, 2018)

Tale said:


> Except raising his sword in defense doesn't mean he put all his strength behind his sword. This is my point. Fujitora could simply have committed enough of his strength to avoid taking injuries, but couldn't have cared less about being sent flying back.



I thought about that.  But that would require a very specific amount of knowledge of the power output of Luffy's technique and how it compares to his own.  And how would he have acquired that degree of knowledge?  And how would he have judged and applied that in a split second?

Furthermore, the !!!! makes that even more unlikely.  And also agrees with the idea that Fujitora while perhaps not going all out is matching up seriously against Luffy.



Tale said:


> Burgess is not just the _First _Titan Captain



True but we don't yet know the correlation between that and power level rank.  Plus using that reasoning implies that Burgess is the most skilled Yonkou Commander in that Yonkou crew.  And I'm sure that we can agree that such is unlikely.



Tale said:


> but he is also the helmsman, meaning he is Jimbei's counterpart in the Blackbeard's crew



Possibly but it's not entirely clear that all of the match ups will be based on position.



Tale said:


> and Jimbei is one of the strongest members in the SH Pirates (and imo, the strongest aside from Luffy).



Their ranks matter more when those match ups happen than currently.  And at that point in the series I'm pretty sure that multiple if not several of the Straw Hat Pirates will be superior to Jinbe.



Tale said:


> Even if you were correct that Mont D'Or is a Yonkou Commander (which you are not)



What makes you suggest that?



Tale said:


> the argument you made here to dismiss my point is laughable.



You're using Burgess' status as a Yonkou Commander to hype him up as part of your point.  I'm disagreeing with that degree of hype on the basis that there are a lot of Yonkou Commanders in the series significantly inferior to the degree of caliber of many of the characters that we're discussing.  I don't even mind if you disagree with Lord Montdor being one, although I'm not sure why you would.  There are a lot of different examples.



Tale said:


> you have to make those further assumptions about Sabo and so on.



I respect your views but the point about Sabo lacks relevance to begin with.  If I'm arguing that Gear 3rd Luffy is physically superior to Fujitora, countering with "Well if Luffy is physically superior to Fujitora then we must also assume that Luffy is physically superior to characters that Fujitora is physically on par with and/or superior to" is a rather pointless point to make.  They're not extra points that I need to address.  If there is a good reason to think that Luffy is physically superior to Fujitora, then obviously there is a good reason to think that Luffy is physically on par with and/or superior to those other characters.



Tale said:


> You really don't have any respect for the role and status of the Admirals, do you?



Of course I do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to rank them the same that you do.  



Tale said:


> In any case, another assumption you're require to make to keep your view consistent: that Fujitora actually wasn't a monster before he was recruited, something which can't be independently supported.



I'm not sure why you think that I have to make that assumption.  Nothing about my argument has anything to do with whether or not Fujitora is powerful without a Devil Fruit.  I've never disagreed with that to begin with.  That's somewhat like the Sabo point except even more vague.



Tale said:


> So far, every Yonkou Commander he's fought has dealt with G3 with relative ease, using their physical (or pseudo-physical) ability. Yours is the claim which needs to be supported.



Every top Yonkou Commander that Luffy has matched up against so far which is only 2 Yonkou Commanders has overpowered Gear 3rd Luffy.  But there are also several Yonkou Commanders who have yet to show more impressive physical strength.


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 26, 2018)

Tale said:


> That dialogue doesn't need to be ignored...
> Just because Fujitora stated he was serious in his convictions doesn't mean he was fighting all out against Luffy up to that point (and how many fights in this manga start with people using their best attacks and strongest moves...?)
> Also, Fujitora was annoyed because he thought Luffy was pitying him. _Immediately _after Fujitora got riled up, he laughed at Luffy. It's the next page after your quoted dialogue and there he uses both uses his DF for the first time and also attacks for the first time.


Doctor Law said Fujitora was not serious. This is blatantly untrue based on the dialogue. Btw you don't need to be bloodlusted or go all out to take your opponent seriously. 

After an extended cqc exchange, he indicates that Luffy has the strength to back up his words. Take a look at the words he is referring to, to see how your argument falls apart .  Additionally he was angry that Luffy was not tanking it seriously, while he was. He indicates that when men battle they should uphold their status (In his case being an admiral). I don't think he would be huffing and puffing from the exertion if he wasn't serious btw.





Tale said:


> The fact he was planning to execute Luffy at that point means nothing. Obviously, he had no reason take out Luffy there, considering that Fujitora was confident he could take him out when he took out the entire fleet, which is arguably why he used gravity to send him away towards the fleet.


 Saying it means nothing does not somehow change its significance. The point is he had intent to kill Luffy and the alliance. So people saying he was not serious or didn't have intent to harm Luffy in their fight are clutching at straws. 

''*he had no reason to take him out there*''  Yeah let's make it harder by having the rest of the alliance also back him up. Let's ignore that he said he was upholding his position, which would require him to capture or kill Luffy there.  Pitiful rationalization. 

''*which is arguably why he used gravity to send him away towards the fleet*'' He sent Luffy flying because he was angry that he was being pitied. Your statement here is headcanon. 

These two quotes though are a perfect example of why it's hilarious when you pompously try to accuse Gohara of making unfounded assertions. First you make an unfounded assertion that according to you is obvious, then ignore his intent with the attack and replace it with your own unsupported fanfic. You're doing exactly what I said you admiral fans do. You either ignore the manga or make up your own version.





Tale said:


> The alternative (suggested by the Fujitora detractors) is that Fuji was having trouble with an injured G2/3 Luffy, which is completely ludicrous (not only because other characters far weaker than Fujitora have been able to handle G2/3, but because this supposedly untroubled Admiral wasn't even using abilities and haki to help himself...)


This just sounds like an appeal to incredulity. ''I don't like the implications of what was shown so I'm going to reject what happened''. You would be great friends with PoPs on TMF. Btw add ''non-serious''  to 'injured G2/3 Luffy'.

The people you mention as far weaker than Fujitora (Cracker and Katakuri) just shows your bias. On a whole you would very quickly lose the argument that Admirals>>>Top Yonkou Commanders. 

I won't even go into your laughable Burgess and Jinbe arguments. Some of the worst transitive logic I've seen.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Extravlad (Mar 26, 2018)

Fujitora bitchslaps Cracker and Katakuri, both at once.


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## Gohara (Mar 26, 2018)

In the Ace vs. Blackbeard match up Blackbeard suggests that none of the original Yonkou Commanders in his crew are at all a match for Ace yet.  So I think that at least most of the level 6 prisoner Yonkou Commanders are superior to most of the original Yonkou Commanders.  So I'm not yet convinced that Burgess is a top 4 Yonkou Commander.  And Burgess' ranking doesn't suggest anything because we don't yet know if there is any correlation between their ranks and power level ranks.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 26, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Doctor Law said Fujitora was not serious. T*his is blatantly untrue based on the dialogue*. Saying it means nothing does not somehow change its significance. T*he point is he had intent to kill Luffy and the alliance*.



Then why didn't he drop the island of rubble on them? 

Untrue based on the dialogue? Moving the goal posts so only the dialogue matters. Gohara, is this your Jekyll side?

What about the dialogue where Doflamingo called Fujitora a monster, or when Fujitora told Doflamingo to his face he wasn't going to do anything?

What about the dialogue where Fujitora practically tells Akainu he let Luffy and Law get away for shits and giggles?

What about when Fujitora literally tells Akainu that he didn't do shit to prove a point about the WG being assholes? Ignoring all that?

Fujitora didn’t care. A test of his power was a meteor. A meteor. A. Meteor.

When did met drops become “meh?” If he was serious about killing the alliance, why didn’t he make it rain?

You're basing your argument off of the strangest form of logic I've ever seen. There are countless examples of characters saying things that don't matter/happen, and you're holding onto that? Better yet, there's Fujitora himself saying he didn't give a darn. Your argument is based off of Fujitora's words.

Go ahead and counter in your usual hostile manner, so pretty much anyone here can throw your own logic back against you.

Reactions: Like 3


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 26, 2018)

Gohara said:


> In the Ace vs. Blackbeard match up Blackbeard suggests that none of the original Yonkou Commanders in his crew are at all a match for Ace yet.  So I think that at least most of the level 6 prisoner Yonkou Commanders are superior to most of the original Yonkou Commanders.  So I'm not yet convinced that Burgess is a top 4 Yonkou Commander.  And Burgess' ranking doesn't suggest anything because we don't yet know if there is any correlation between their ranks and power level ranks.



You're one of the few people on this board that respects Ace (which I respect) but you shit on Fujitora as politely as can be. You were supposed to bring balance to the forums.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2018)

It's 2018 & some people still thinks Yonko commanders are a match for Admirals.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Dellinger (Mar 27, 2018)

DoctorLaw has utterly decimated that idiot Seraphoenix

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 27, 2018)

Cracker gets cracked. CoO indicates living being as glowing auras, if you take into account that Issho is blind and can even see silhouettes of the living beings it's unarguable that he is the best suited character with no knowledge to find out where the real Cracker hides. 

Fujitora low-mid diff at worst.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeah I've already had this conversation with Sera @DoctorLaw about Fujitora's motivations in the past and it went as well as your attempt here. You just can't reason with stupid. 



He's a hack who's regrettably in far too deep in his hole to try and preserve some dignity by crawling out. So he keeps digging further in.


The funniest thing is that he clings to that sole bit of dialogue (conveniently avoiding to mention it's right at that instant when Fujitora briefly gets angry and promptly sends Luffy flying) and ignores the rather more clearer dialogue from Fujitora soon after that, where he transparently expresses his true feelings towards Luffy.

Fujitora:_ (In truth, I have no right to go after you...) // ......I’d appreciate it if you’d keep this between us, but... / For tidying up this mess where the Government failed... // You all have... // ...my most sincere thanks!!! // ......_

I mean FFS, he gave Luffy three days to recover after his fight with Doflamingo. It can't get much clearer than that and there's a point where you just can't spoon feed basic story elements to people anymore



DoctorLaw said:


> Gohara, is this your Jekyll side?



It's kind of amusing you've said this given some historical jokes that have been on here about Sera.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 27, 2018)

Tale said:


> @Admiral Kizaru @DoctorLaw
> 
> I think @Seraphoenix is right to point out the Fujitora was trying to uphold his position by taking out Luffy. It's not the only thing that supports what he's saying, because Fujitora actually was about to take Luffy out before the civilians arrived. The mistake I see him making is thinking that Fujitora wasn't at the same time looking for every opportunity to postpone doing his duty or find a way to avoid doing it completely, which is supported by every other bit of dialogue and action. (It may be that he predicted the civilians intervening, but I don't think so based on his thoughts directly after that.)



It seemed like a perfuctonary attempt though and simply for show because Sengoku & Tsuru had arrived and the latter basically called him out on his BS for stalling - he couldn't really fob them off like he had done with Bastille & Maynard because of their status. I actually think the comment relates to him being annoyed at Luffy for not being cognisant of the awkward position he was in and not running away (thereby avoiding the issue all together) from him, instead deciding to stupidly challenge him and putting him in a position where he had to attack someone who he viewed as a hero, _"Are you really that big of a fool, I'm trying my utmost to uphold my standing over here". _


I think the only moment where he legitimately seemed ready to kill Luffy was when he got visibly angry when he realised Luffy was taking pity on him because of his blindness .... hence the line, "_But if you wanted to get my goat, mission accomplished! Your head will fly from your shoulders in a minute". _And he would off if it wasn't for the citizen intervention, Fuji's own good guy morality & as you accurately say the fact he was looking for any excuse to get out of it.
_
_
tl;dr - Essentially he was half-assing the job because of his conflicted feelings.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 27, 2018)

@Tale  I can live with that.

The civilians arrival is heavily implied to be the only thing that could save Luffy once Fuji got mad. It's actually pretty common for Luffy to be saved from an admiral fight by various circumstances.

Aokiji could've cleared out the SHs at least twice, both times he decided not to.

Kizaru could've done it but he was dicking around too much and Rayleigh showed up. Kizaru then actually cares, showing that even when he didn't give a shit he could solo the pre skip crew in seconds.

Akainu had to go through an actual Yonkou crew before being stopped by Shanks.

Luffy doesn't stop the admirals from doing what they want, ever (see hole in the Ace). Him going back to Fujitora and saying "no more running away" was supposed to show the turning point where he would begin to try to challenge them. Too many people here took it as a sign Luffy is fighting on par with them. If Fujitora got serious before that G3 punch, Luffy would've taken that Cracker flight package.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Mar 27, 2018)

I agree that Burgess is more skilled Post Time Skip than Pre Time Skip, my point in bringing up Blackbeard's point is that Pre Time Skip the prisoner characters in the crew are likely superior to the original members of the crew.  Burgess gets more skilled during the time skip but so do those characters.  And the only way those ranks are the order of tier is if Burgess is the #1 most skilled member of the crew.  But we already know that such is very unlikely.

Where Burgess ranks in the crew outside of that is more debatable.  Although Pre Time Skip the prisoner characters are likely superior to Burgess.  That doesn't really matter a lot though because again the initial point isn't about Lord Montdor specifically.  There is a significant range in skills between Yonkou Commanders so simply being a Yonkou Commander doesn't say a lot within the context of that point.


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## Gohara (Mar 27, 2018)

"you shit on Fujitora"

I don't see how when I speculate in Fujitora's favor for multiple points.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 27, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "you shit on Fujitora"
> 
> I don't see how when I speculate in Fujitora's favor for multiple points.



The key word there is speculate. It's not speculation that Fujitora's meteors can obliterate Cracker's biscuits, its a fact. Speculation is Cracker being able to block the meteors. What I'm saying is you seem to give Fuji's opponents the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time, and its like pulling nails for you to admit Fujitora can possibly beat them.


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## Gohara (Mar 27, 2018)

"Then why didn't he drop the island of rubble on them?"

The match up is interrupted.  And also that reply seems more of an argument about Fujitora not going all out.  Seraphoenix's argument is disagreeing with the idea that Fujitora isn't being serious at all in that match up.  Which doesn't necessarily mean that Fujitora is going all out.

"Moving the goal posts so only the dialogue matters."

I don't think that is necessarily what Seraphoenix is suggesting.  Arguing that dialogue contradicts an argument isn't necessarily suggesting that the only thing that matters is dialogue.

"What about the dialogue where Doflamingo called Fujitora a monster"

True but what does that have to do with anything?

"or when Fujitora told Doflamingo to his face he wasn't going to do anything?"

If you're arguing that Fujitora doesn't fear Doflamingo then true but Doflamingo also doesn't fear Fujitora.

"What about the dialogue where Fujitora practically tells Akainu he let Luffy and Law get away for shits and giggles?"

What part of the dialogue suggests that?  Also that was prior to the Luffy vs. Fujitora match up.

"What about when Fujitora literally tells Akainu that he didn't do shit to prove a point about the WG being assholes? Ignoring all that?"

That explains why he didn't directly try to capture Doflamingo, something that no one is disagreeing with.

"A test of his power was a meteor. A meteor. A. Meteor."

Saying that he wants to try out his new skills isn't necessarily the same thing as saying that he's not trying.  Furthermore the Meteors are the most powerful technique that we've seen from him so far.

Also I'm not sure why we would assume that Fujitora dropping rubble and/or Meteors would have guaranteed Fujitora to best all of those characters combined.  Law and Doflamingo have destroyed the Meteors without much of a problem.  A disadvantaged battle worn Luffy without Gear 4th has destroyed an island sized ship.  Even being generous it's unlikely that Gear 4th Luffy and Asura Zoro would have any issues at all destroying island sized rubble and/or Meteors.  And that's setting aside the huge arsenal of other skills within that crew.

"You're basing your argument off of the strangest form of logic I've ever seen. There are countless examples of characters saying things that don't matter/happen, and you're holding onto that? Better yet, there's Fujitora himself saying he didn't give a darn. Your argument is based off of Fujitora's words."

Because you guys are taking an example of when Fujitora wasn't going all out and applying it to literally everything that he's done in the series so far.  Fujitora wasn't going all out to directly capture Doflamingo.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he's joking around in all of his other match ups so far.  And even then, no one is really arguing that he was going all out as much as we are disagreeing that Fujitora isn't being serious at all.


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## Gohara (Mar 27, 2018)

"It's not speculation that Fujitora's meteors can obliterate Cracker's biscuits, its a fact."

Fact implies that we've seen Fujitora's Meteors destroy entities with the same degree of durability as the Biscuit Soldiers.

And whether or not they would destroy the Biscuit Soldiers doesn't really matter a lot because they can be regenerated.

"What I'm saying is you seem to give Fuji's opponents the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time, and its like pulling nails for you to admit Fujitora can possibly beat them."

I'm speculating in favor of Fujitora in besting an opponent even though his match up feats are not yet more impressive.  I'm speculating in favor of Fujitora more than I have to.  Which is the opposite of what you're suggesting.

I'm simply giving the Biscuit Soldiers' impressiveness the credit that they deserve.  They're some of the most durable entities that we've seen so far and can be regenerated almost infinitely.  Lord Cracker is also comparable to characters who consistently have not received inferior portrayal to the Admirals.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 27, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "It's not speculation that Fujitora's meteors can obliterate Cracker's biscuits, its a fact."
> 
> 1) Fact implies that we've seen Fujitora's Meteors destroy entities with the same degree of durability as the Biscuit Soldiers.
> 
> ...



1) A G4 punch broke through Cracker's haki+biscuit defense. The average biscuit doesn't have durability on that level. As a matter of fact, if they're wet, they can be eaten. *How can a meteor not destroy something you can eat? *If water affects it by making it soggy, fire from the meteor naturally burns them to a crisp, on top of crushing them all.

2) It does matter, because you implied a meteor can't destroy something Luffy literally ate when the meteors had characters like Sabo (who was a logia) and Doflamingo shocked and scared. 

3) No matter how many times you say something, it doesn't make it true or offer any more of explanation. There's no way you can think a Cracker biscuit can tank a meteor strike when Cracker flying into them broke them in half. Yes Luffy had a good amount of force behind the push, but the meteor will be many times stronger than Cracker's canonically flimsy back.
And before you bring up the "Cracker can use haki on all his biscuits possibly" thing, know that *that's speculation. Since there is no proof of it, despite the 11 hour fight. 
*
4) The biscuit soldier with the impressive durability was the one that Cracker was inside of. Luffy said *Cracker's haki was the strongest he came across. *And he still broke through it immediately. The biscuits are hard, but not anywhere close to Cracker's haki. 

Here's another fact to consider Gohara. *Doflamingo survived a Kong Gun. *Cracker's biscuit, covered in* haki, was destroyed. *Ask anyone on this forum. They'll love to tell you about how many times G4 punched Doflamingo into the dirt. Hell, he even ate a KKG and survived. So that's a fact that Doflamingo's durability is superior to Cracker's, so much so that even with this so called impressive defense, Doflamingo is much more resilient. Cracker's haki was the most impressive thing, and he had great defense, but with all things considered his tanking ability is lower than Doflamingo's. If you have superior haki to Cracker, his biscuit defense isn't enough to defend. He just has a bunch of clones he can create instantly. 

And what do you know! A meteor covers a pretty big area! Cracker will make more clones you say? How if he's *dead?* Cracker's only defense is haki from the met drop, and based on how Doflamingo, Sabo, and Law reacted, that's not enough to cut it.

You should just admit that you're speculating for Cracker at this point. Every point you make is speculation. You speculate Cracker's biscuits can tank meteors (which are on fire) despite them being shattered by Cracker flying into them with enough force. 

You speculate that Cracker just has the greatest haki we've seen in the manga, to the point that he can provide haki defense on all of his biscuits simultaneously for the length of time it takes to fight an admiral. 

Fujitora has unimpressive matchups compared to Cracker? Are you serious? Cracker fought only Luffy and Nami, and he was beaten in literally 3 hits. He couldn't kill Luffy for 11 hours when he couldn't rely on his biscuits. Fujitora has a way to outright destroy them all and you're saying Fujitora needs your "speculation" here to win?


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## DA hawk (Mar 27, 2018)

This match-up doesn't deserve 3 fucking pages smh....

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Dr. White (Mar 27, 2018)

Fujitora low diffs  

Lmao at thinking fuji didn't hold back vs base luffy

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 27, 2018)

DA hawk said:


> This match-up doesn't deserve 3 fucking pages smh....



Sadly it's the OL. Some people have to defend their powerlevelz until the bitter end at all costs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Mar 27, 2018)

Gohara shut up


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## Quipchaque (Mar 28, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> 1) A G4 punch broke through Cracker's haki+biscuit defense. The average biscuit doesn't have durability on that level. As a matter of fact, if they're wet, they can be eaten. *How can a meteor not destroy something you can eat? *If water affects it by making it soggy, fire from the meteor naturally burns them to a crisp, on top of crushing them all.
> 
> 2) It does matter, because you implied a meteor can't destroy something Luffy literally ate when the meteors had characters like Sabo (who was a logia) and Doflamingo shocked and scared.
> 
> ...



You do Realize Crackers biscuits have swords in their hands and great physical strength? So why do You pretend It is an oh so unbelievable and ridiculous Idea that an Army of those Things can destroy a Meteor while literally any Other character that is weaker or comparable To cracker Handled those Things perfectly fine?

You Act Like cracker is some Kind of silly one-shot baboon even so he is one of Big Moms Most powerful soldiers with one of The highest bounties revealed and who could Fight against luffy For 11 hours while at a Huge disadvantage. But of course gohara is biased against fujitora because He respects Crackers strength ...yeah suuure.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Mar 28, 2018)

"fire can destroy the Biscuit Soldiers"

Luffy has fire techniques and yet has to resort to eating the Biscuit Soldiers.

"Doflamingo and Sabo fear Fujitora's Meteors"

Not only would I argue that such is an exaggeration but Doflamingo destroys Fujitora's Meteors without much of a problem.

"applying Haki to the Biscuit Soldiers is speculation"

Characters can apply Haki to their weapons so I'm not sure how that's any different.

"Biscuit Soldiers can't be continuously created if that character is bested from the AoE of the Meteors"

The Biscuit Soldiers can absorb a lot of the AoE and there are also the points that Zoro makes.

"Fujitora needs your "speculation" here to win"

We don't factually know that Fujitora can get around the Biscuit Soldiers.  And characters comparable to Lord Cracker have consistent even confrontations with the Admirals.  And even if you disagree that it's speculation it's still proof that I have no problems speculating in favor of Fujitora.  But I'm not necessarily going to count feats for Fujitora that his character doesn't have yet.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 28, 2018)

Tis a well known fact that nerds are allergic to reality.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> *You do Realize Crackers biscuits have swords in their hands and great physical strength?* *So why do You pretend It is an oh so unbelievable and ridiculous Idea that an Army of those Things can destroy a Meteor* while literally any Other character that is weaker or comparable To cracker Handled those Things perfectly fine?
> 
> You Act Like cracker is some Kind of silly one-shot baboon even so he is one of Big Moms Most powerful soldiers with one of The highest bounties revealed and who could Fight against luffy For 11 hours while at a Huge disadvantage. But of course gohara is biased against fujitora because He respects Crackers strength ...yeah suuure.



Because it's a meteor. Cracker's biscuits haven't shown any flying slashes, and we haven't seen Cracker stack them, so when the meteor lands, the impact destroys them all. Let's say for the sake of argument that they can band together to stop a meteor. How do they stop a second? And then a third? Fujitora can spam meteors, and on top of that he can weigh down large groups of the biscuits under pressure while he drops a meteor. What's to stop Fujitora from using a raging tiger to throw the biscuits off balance? What if he lifts them closer to the meteor and doesn't allow them to brace to block? 

All things he's capable of. 

Now as for people being able to deal with the meteors, it's not as simple as you make it sound. Doflamingo has a razor sharp DF attack that can cut cities apart from vast distances, and Law's DF allows him to cut anything in his room that isn't covered in strong haki. They are some of the only two people you will see that have a way to deal with the met drop. They didn't even stop it all the way, Fujitora blocks the rest of it himself. There's a reason they both looked scared even though they had a way to fight back against it. 

And Cracker is one shot material, the manga even presents him this way. His 11 hour fight against Luffy works against him here, as we saw he is practically useless without his DF, despite his strong haki. 11 hours, Luffy evades him and finds time to eat his biscuits? That's bad for Cracker, not for Luffy. That means if he's ever outside of his armor, Fujitora doesn't have to worry about anything at all.

It's funny you seem to be implying I have a bias against Cracker because I don't think the one shot biscuit man can survive a meteor shower attack. This is literally Cracker's worst matchup in OP, besides maybe BM.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 28, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "fire can destroy the Biscuit Soldiers"
> 
> 1) Luffy has fire techniques and yet has to resort to eating the Biscuit Soldiers.
> 
> ...



1) We don't see the fight, and he deals with the biscuits by eating them since Nami is there. Also meteors on fire >>> A G2 punch. Doflamingo got up from G2 in good condition. Would've been messed up if the meteor hit.

2) Doflamingo and Law are smiling happily and shooting the breeze as the met drops in the manga, I misremembered

3) Pointless statement, because we're specifically focusing on a character coating multiple instances of their DF. Characters do it to one or two things at a time, not an entire army of moving soldiers. Haki is finite, there is no reasonable way he can coat a group of his biscuits and sustain them.

"The Biscuit Soldiers can absorb a lot of the AoE." < ---- Statements like this are speculation.
*They couldn't even absorb the impact of Cracker's flimsy back. *A meteor will land with hundreds of times more pressure, and Fujitora can spam them. It's not like he'll wait around to watch.

Is that the old "we can't be sure.." argument? We also don't factually know if Akainu's magma or if BM can get around the biscuit soldiers, but I bet you aren't skeptical about that. That's not a good point to make, this is a forum where we debate fights, hypothetical and otherwise, so we take into account feats, portrayal, and matchups. You must support those statements with commonly understood information or evidence. You do not have a single bit of evidence that could demonstrate any of your claims of Cracker.

-His durability < Doflamingo. He was defeated in 1 hit outside of his armor, which was destroyed in 2.
-His haki not enough to stop even one G4 punch. Doflamingo can take a G4 punch and stand back up, but a meteor impact would kill him.
-His biscuits can be destroyed with sufficient force from Luffy's cannonball. This should be the lynchpin. The only way around this point is if you go all in and say "cannon ball > meteor" which would be incorrect if we take into account the distance Cracker travelled after being shot. The meteor came from a much greater distance (exponential as a matter of fact), and landed with great impact at an insane speed.

None of those things will lead a person to conclude that his biscuits can stop a meteor shower.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 28, 2018)

People need to give it a rest. Cracker is strong, but this is a bad matchup. 

Remember when we debated based on matchups? 

Meteors > Biscuits.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 28, 2018)

So a meteor can't destroy Crackers? 

What am i reading?


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## Quipchaque (Mar 28, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> So a meteor can't destroy Crackers?
> 
> What am i reading?



The thing is this isn't "just" cracker. It's the guy with one of the most hyped armament Haki powers, physical strength capable of stopping g3 in its tracks, a powerful offensive attack like pretzel roll and swords and shields to guard itself. It's just not that simple as "lol meteor" even so neither gohara or me doubt that fujitora would win.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 28, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The thing is this isn't "just" cracker. It's the guy with one of the most hyped armament Haki powers, physical strength capable of stopping g3 in its tracks, a powerful offensive attack like pretzel roll and swords and shields to guard itself. It's just not that simple as "lol meteor" even so neither gohara or me doubt that fujitora would win.


I just find it hilarious if i think a little bit about a dropping meteor that can't break a cracker on earth.

It was not even meant negatively in any way to any argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Mar 28, 2018)

"We don't see the fight, and he deals with the biscuits by eating them since Nami is there. Also meteors on fire >>> A G2 punch."

Luffy eats the Biscuit Soldiers because his character has no other way of getting around the Biscuit Soldiers.  Luffy can use fire in all of his forms, no?  Luffy's fire can't destroy the Biscuit Soldiers so there's no reason to assume that any fire automatically destroys all of the Biscuit Soldiers.  I don't doubt the Meteors' ability to destroy Biscuit Soldiers as much as I do that they destroy the Biscuit Soldiers faster than they're regenerated.

"Doflamingo and Law are smiling happily and shooting the breeze as the met drops in the manga"

Doflamingo seems more angry and those characters destroy those Meteors without much of a problem.

"Pointless statement, because we're specifically focusing on a character coating multiple instances of their DF. Characters do it to one or two things at a time, not an entire army of moving soldiers. Haki is finite, there is no reasonable way he can coat a group of his biscuits and sustain them."

We've seen characters with less impressive Armanent Haki use Armanent Haki on their entire bodies and we know that Zoro can and/or will be able to use Armanent Haki on all of his swords.  Suggesting that Fujitora can use King's Haki is a lot more speculative than that and yet I assume that Fujitora can use King's Haki.

"Statements like this are speculation."

How so?  I'm basing that on the Biscuit Soldiers being some of the most impressive defense that we've seen so far in the series.

"and Fujitora can spam them."

How do we know if Fujitora can spam them and if so to what degree?

"We also don't factually know if Akainu's magma or if BM can get around the biscuit soldiers"

Big Mam's character easily brushes off Gear 4th which has broken through the Biscuit Soldiers.

"His durability < Doflamingo. He was defeated in 1 hit outside of his armor, which was destroyed in 2."

You're comparing Doflamingo's stamina to the durability of Lord Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers.  Luffy can wound Doflamingo without Gear 4th.  Luffy would have to spam Gear 3rd to break a Biscuit Soldier and Lord Cracker can create an infinite amount of Biscuit Soldiers.  Also we're not discussing Lord Cracker's body but rather the Biscuit Soldiers.

"Cracker's biscuits haven't shown any flying slashes"

Characters inferior to Lord Cracker can swing their swords with force that creates flying slashes.  Also we've never seen Fujitora use Meteors and other gravity techniques at the same time.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 29, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> I just find it hilarious if i think a little bit about a dropping meteor that can't break a cracker on earth.
> 
> It was not even meant negatively in any way to any argument.



Ah nvm then. I thought you found the suggestion that cracker can fight back ridiculous lol.


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 29, 2018)

Tale said:


> @Seraphoenix
> 
> Why does my argument fall apart because Fujitora said that Luffy has the strength to back up his words? Luffy never said he's capable of beating Fujitora and in all translations in chapter 798 he says something along the lines of being unable to defeat Admirals/Yonkou n the present and beating them in the future. What he says is that he doesn't need to run away anymore like he had to do on Shabondy before, which is true.



''Luffy *never said he's capable of beating Fujitora *and in all translations in chapter 798 he says *something along the lines of being unable to defeat Admirals/Yonkou n the present and beating them in the future.*''


Luffy: *I’m done with saying... // I’ll beat you “someday*”. // *pant* // *pant* // Just ‘cause you’re an Admiral... // Who says I’ve got to run away?!!! // I had enough of that two years ago!!!

Strong reading comprehension. Or just dishonesty who knows?



Bartolomeo: Eh?! // ?!!
Luffy: Whether it’s a Marine Admiral... / ...or even a Yonkou...!!! / I’ve gotta be ready to beat them all up!!! Or else... // ...I’ll never become Pirate King!!!!

Pretty interesting that the word 'even' implies the Yonkou are above the Admirals. This from a Luffy that saw what they were capable of at MF and trained with the FM of the Roger Pirates.

Also your argument falls apart because the question is, is Fujitora serious in this encounter? The fact that he agrees that Luffy can back up the above, indicates that Luffy pushed him far enough that he could confirm that.



Tale said:


> As for Fujitora huffing and puffing, maybe the fact that he was levitating about an island's worth of rubble might have had something to do with that, you know.


 So you're telling me Doflamingo is even stronger than we thought given how long he kept birdcage up? (The same birdcage Fuji could do nothing about btw)

 What you're saying is nice fanfic though and another example of you accusing Gohara of something then doing the exact thing you accuse him of, but even worse, he at least supports his arguments with evidence. I'll wait for you to give me any piece of evidence that he has to actively keep it up there, as opposed to it being a passive ability or an awakening that creates a gravity field to keep the rubble there.





Tale said:


> And saying it has significance doesn't somehow endue it with significance...


I gave reasons why it is significant to those who say Fujitora isn't serious and had no intent to kill Luffy there. You saying 'no you' doesn't refute that at all. It's hilarious how you cut out responses that go against your narrative.





Tale said:


> First objection is an irrelevant objection. Fujitora was about to sink the fleet. He thought (and we know this because his line of thought is explicit described) that the fleet's situation was inescapable.
> Second objection is also irrelevant, because, like I said, he intended (at a later point) to kill Luffy by dropping the rubble on top of them, which mean there's nothing inconsistent between I'm suggesting and him upholding his position.


You have no argument when you say he had no reason to take Luffy out there. All you have is speculation with no credible evidence that discredits the counter view I presented.

To jog your memory:
-Fujitora was insulted that Luffy was not taking it seriously as it was a battle between men
-Further he characterised it as a battle where he was doing his best to uphold his position as admiral. A position that would require him to capture or kill Luffy there

You have no evidence to discredit what he is saying here. He is giving us his intent in that battle and his reasons for it. If you have any counter evidence to the character telling us why and what he is doing then by all means bring it. Merely saying he had no reason does not somehow warp what he said away.

He gives no indication that he intended to kill Luffy at a later point. In fact, in the battle he indicates that he will take Luffy's head off (not drop rubble on him) The reason he didn't, is because the giant caught Luffy and held him back, which deprived Fujitora of the opportunity to attempt to do it. If you have any evidence to support your view that he did not want to take Luffy out in that battle and to kill him later then by all means bring it. Currently your view is contradicted by what the character actually says though. Additionally you presented no evidence that he intentionally sent Luffy towards the fleet. It just happened that Luffy flew in the direction that Raging Tiger sent him. We are given no indication that he was specifically sent in a particular direction. Moreover he didn't even send him straight to the fleet, he sent him to a small hill and then we are shown the giant running with Luffy toward the ships.

To summarise:
-You said he did not want to kill Luffy but presented no evidence for this assertion. In fact this is contradicted by his dialogue.
-You said he planned to rather kill Luffy later by dropping the rubble on him but again presented not a shred of proof for this. This is also contradicted by his dialogue.
-You sent he was 'arguably' sent in that direction because Fuji wanted to kill him there while again providing no evidence of his intent to direct Raging Tiger at a particular direction. additionally Luffy was sent straight into some hill and not directly at them.
-You also amusingly presented one of these points as 'obvious' while again presenting nothing that even vaguely backs up your view.
-Also you made the mistake of thinking being serious is the same as going all out.

This is a tldr but I wanted to express comprehensively the issue I have with you wildly throwing around judgements (''not independently supported'' ''inefficient'' ''ridiculous'' ) on people like Gohara's arguments, while if we look at the things you say in depth, we find that many of your arguments don't survive the merest of scrutiny. It really seems that you are projecting when you make those kind of accusations.




Tale said:


> I know he did it out of anger, but what could pushing Luffy away from him and towards the fleet achieve in terms of lethality? Unless that move was a motivated purely by his rage (and Fujitora wasn't thinking at all about his next move), then *his intentions can only be explained that way.*


Firstly I would have to accept your frame that he intentionally sent Luffy in a particular direction. Something you have not given a credible argument for. I outright reject it as lacking evidence.

Secondly -False choice dilemma. What if he sent him in the direction of the sea to drown? What if he thought it would one hit KO him by sending him into that small hill? What if he was merely doing it to injure Luffy and then to go finish him off by cutting his head off?

And yes I could just go with the move being motivated by anger given that is more credible than him intentionally being sent there. We have actual dialogue to support the former while nothing suggests the latter.





Tale said:


> I make mistakes just like anyone else, although I don't think I've made any here... I specifically said that the second point is _arguable_, and in the case of the first one, you're misreading what I mean in order to make it look like an unfounded assertion. What I was saying is that there was no point for Fujitora to kill or overpower Luffy in a 1 vs 1, because Fujitora was about to win the 1 vs 5000+ fight. Fujitora was about to uphold his position, in other words, by doing as ordered, _in spite of what he felt_, which is what he says later.



of course you don't think you did. I did outline in the tldr how you did though. In addition if you want to say you used the word 'arguable' as you merely stating possibilities or not calcifying your position, then do that with someone else. I want your firm position on the matter not vague things that you can slither your way out of by saying ''I'm not making that my final position, I'm merely stating possibilities or this is kinda good possibility''. Moreover the word arguable means:

*''able to be argued or asserted.
"it was arguable that the bank had no authority to honour the cheques"
synonyms: tenable, maintainable, assertable, defendable, defensible, supportable, sustainable
 ''
*
You characterising it as 'arguable' then, means it has to be defensible or assertable. You have brought no evidence to suggest that though. You used the first assertion that he had no reason to kill Luffy but was going to kill him later, as support for the intent to send Luffy in a particular direction. It's a house of cards that fails at the very first assertion. You want to say it's likely that Luffy sent him in a particular direction because he had intent to kill him there.

Lastly there was a point in Fujitora killing Luffy 1v1 as I outlined. He gave us his reasons.
*
*





Tale said:


> I'm not an Admiral fan either... I like at least one YC and two Yonkou more than I like any Admiral and some of the Admirals I actually dislike...


I use the word 'fan' as a soft term for 'wanker' given you get banned for the latter. Given your rationalisations for admirals and your gross underestimation of YC your words here mean very little imo.





Tale said:


> It's not an appeal to incredulity. I'm saying there are contrary implications (which Gohara obviously denies exist, but knows I believe exist) that contradict whatever implications you might see in that scene.


Contrary implications that are merely contrary to your view of powerscaling. Let's be completely specific here. Don't act like it is undeniable that there are contradictions (direct panels etc), when it's merely contradictions with your view of the matter. Him saying that G3 Luffy is physically stronger than Fujitora is only a contradiction for your views on where other characters who demolished G2/3 Luffy compare in physical strength to Fujitora. It's a weak transitive argument because you have not given a credible argument as to why Fujitora has comparable _physical strength_ to those characters. It is exactly then an appeal to incredulity. Just because it contradicts your view of physical strength does not necessarily mean it is ''ridiculous''.





Tale said:


> Maybe _I _would, but there are posters that have decisively won that argument already from what I've seen... but what matters here are the points being discussed, no?


Given what you have shown here and what you said here regarding Admirals and YC:


I have my doubts you would recognise good arguments that refute your view given how poor yours are. If you have a link to such decisive victories please link them? or more fantasies?

If you don't want that discussion then fine. I just wanted to point out that your arguments there are incredibly weak. You brazenly said the Fujitora is far stronger than the likes of Cracker and Katakuri but looking at the basis of your beliefs is just 





Tale said:


> Gohara asserted the Burgess's hype as a Yonkou Commander is meaningless because Mont D'Or is also a Yonkou Commander. This implies that Gohara understands that, for all we know, Burgess might be equivalent to Mont D'or in terms of strength and status.
> To counter that point, I pointed out that he's the highest ranking captain in Blackbeard's crew, which does not necessarily mean he's the strongest, nor does it necessarily mean he's as strong as other top Yonkou Commanders, but it _indicates_ that, in the sense of raising the probability that such a belief is true. To further support that, I pointed out the parallel with Jimbei, which I can further support, but which at the very least indicates that Burgess is one of the top 3 individuals in Blackbeard's crew, excluding Blackbeard, meaning its unlikely, given the implications we have been given, that Burgess is equivalent to Mont D'Or.


Burgess got one shot by Ace pre-skip. Now suddenly he is on the same level as Cracker and Katakuri who are the equivalent of Marco and Vista who are both stronger than Ace. Does this man have some D genes in him were're unaware of that makes him grow faster than the MC?  There has been nothing to suggest from his feats that he is anywhere near the likes of Katakuri, Marco or Cracker. Additionally, there is nothing to suggest that the level of physical strength is homogeneous among YC even if I agree that Burgess is at the level of Katakuri or Marco.

Oda said the numbers in the WB YC is not in rank order. Why can we not say the same for BB? That crew as far as we know was his only intimate exposure to a Yonkou crew structure. Why wouldn't he go with something that was familiar to him? That parallel with Jimbei is also equally meaningless. They share the same title so what? A title that has nothing to do with physical strength.

Lastly the equivalent of Katakuri and Cracker in Marco and Vista, were contending with admirals and the WSS and did not look inferiror until distractions came into play for the former. Burgess was completely overpowered by Sabo who was contending with Fujitora nigh equally. Looking at feats, that transitive logic is far more credible than your parallels. It is far more probable that Burgess is not on the same level as Cracker and Katakuri.



Tale said:


> I wasn't relying on transitive logic, but pointing out that the possibility that Gohara saw as undermining my initial post wasn't very likely given the information we have.


Given the information you erroneously interpreted.



Tale said:


> @Admiral Kizaru @DoctorLaw
> 
> I think @Seraphoenix is right to point out the Fujitora was trying to uphold his position by taking out Luffy. It's not the only thing that supports what he's saying, because Fujitora actually was about to take Luffy out before the civilians arrived. The mistake I see him making is thinking that Fujitora wasn't at the same time looking for every opportunity to postpone doing his duty or find a way to avoid doing it completely, which is supported by every other bit of dialogue and action. (It may be that he predicted the civilians intervening, but I don't think so based on his thoughts directly after that.)


he made a decision to take out Luffy and that is supported by every bit of dialogue and action. The only thing that changed his mind was the civilians getting in the way. Bring anything that suggests in that time frame between his battle and before the citizens came that he wasn't fully committed to taking him out. That's the only relevant part of this conversation.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 29, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Now that I've dealt with the adult, let me get to the acrimonious rantings of the delusional:
> 
> because the citizens got in his way and convinced him not to????
> 
> ...



You remind of a mini boss fight lol. First, he had the rubble floating for a while. Well before the citizens showed up. He didn't drop it then, or use mets. Ergo, he wasn't serious about taking out the alliance.

Second, you ignored all evidence placed in front of you in favor of relying on Fujitora's dialogue (and selectively at that). You also specifically called me out as being wrong based on the dialogue. I don't have to show you exactly saying it when your general attitude and acceptance of evidence points specifically to only that.

Now put your big boy pants on for this, it takes critical thinking to understand this next part. Doflamingo calling Fujitora a monster is relevant because it means *Fujitora doesn't get overpowered by base Luffy.* How does one reach a complex conclusion such as that? Hm, maybe because Luffy barely beat that same guy with an entire city helping him. If Doflamingo nearly defeated Luffy, the guy Fujitora describes as a monster must be stronger. It's a simple shonen trope, bigger baddies are saved for last, and Doflamingo is an effective way for Oda to imply Fujitora's strength.

And this is the cutest part of the post, where you slip into the delusion that Doflamingo stood a chance against Fujitora using sound logic like this:

_-He saw everything the admirals were capable of at MF and still came to that conclusion
-He knows his place in the power hierarchy given his fear of Kaido
-Aokiji said multiple admirals should be sent to deal with the situation_

1) He tried Aokiji when he was going to kill Smoker. Frozen instantly while Aokiji had his hands in his pockets. If Luffy pushing Fujitora back a few feet while he's blocking with no haki is enough to whet your appetite, then Aokiji wrecking Doflamingo with his hands in his pockets should send off the red alerts. Doflamingo is not in the same league as the admirals. Period.

2) He's afraid of Kaido because his lineage and perks can't save him. The navy has a system, and conveniently his birthright can allow him to potentially supersede that position. Reading the manga will tell you that.

3) And yet Akainu was convinced Fujitora could've handled it alone, and still take Luffy and Law's head.

_"Do you have anything to suggest he didn't mean what he said there? Also there is a very big difference between a character saying something is going to happen and it not happening, and a character telling us the reasons for his actions and the effort he is putting in those actions. The latter is far more credible as he is talking about himself and not making predictions of external events. The fact that you conflate the two just shows how you really have no clue what the argument is about, let alone what would refute the argument."
_
Thanks again for arguing against your own logic. Fujitora himself said that his intent was to have someone else save Dressrosa, and to get rid of shichibukai. He allows Luffy to fight Doflamingo, and he lets Luffy recover. While that happens, he has to convince himself to even go after Luffy. He then fights him halfheartedly. Fujitora gets serious at the end when he says he's going to take Luffy down, and there's conviction behind his words. As soon as that happens, he sends Luffy out, and plans the rubble drop. He had Luffy dead to rights when he got serious. So, from you, big difference when a character says something is going to happen and it doesn't happen:

"I'm going to arrest Luffy for real lol"

_Goes to arrest Luffy, doesn't arrest him because he still is hesitant. (when the g3 punch happens)_

And a character telling us a reason for their actions and the effort:

"You look down on me for being blind, now I'll send you to hell" (an actual attack from Fujitora)

_Effortlessly tosses Luffy._

Further, Tashigi and Smoker are thankful for what Fujitora did, "paying the SHs back" for what he did. They knew he could've saved the day, or taken credit for it, but Fujitora didn't. Do you need to be spoonfed why Fujitora didn't use nearly all of his power at all?

Funny you saying I'm salty because I called you hostile. You're always like that (with everybody except Gohara ), just look at the pointless name calling. This is the internet dude, I couldn't care less about the "imbeciles," or whatever dated things you're calling me, I only care about the matchups (if people talk about them logically).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 29, 2018)

Don't know why I'm bothering but ....

@Seraphoenix  Fujitora could have dropped the mountain of rubble on top of the SH fleet when they were at sea, where the citizens couldn't get in the way off it. 

Instead, he deliberately chose only to target the enemy pirates that suddenly appeared and carefully avoid the SH fleet altogether, explicitly stating in his dialogue that "_this is a parting gift for you SH". 
_
Ergo, confirming what @DoctorLaw and the others have been saying ... he wasn't serious about the whole affair.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Quipchaque (Mar 29, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Don't know why I'm bothering but ....
> 
> @Seraphoenix  Fujitora could have dropped the mountain of rubble on top of the SH fleet when they were at sea, where the citizens couldn't get in the way off it.
> 
> ...



No that is not correct. Fujitora clearly had the intention to sink the fleet. It is only when he saw how much the civilians cared about luffy and how much luffy likes him that convinced him to reconsider and then completely stop. Remember fujitora's character is about "the dice decides fate" and shit like that. He immediately took action once the dice told him to. He wouldn't discard his own beliefs just like that on a whim. Sure he had doubts at multiple instances but in the end of the day he decided to follow his duty first.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## X18999 (Mar 29, 2018)

I honestly don't think Fujitora's meteor would do anything to a biscuit soldier and I'm not sure why people think it would.  He dropped many of them in Dressrosa and accomplished all of nothing with them and they certainly aren't as powerful as a G4 hit.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Mar 29, 2018)

"He didn't summon Meteors therefore he wasn't being serious"

Again basically all of the points that you're making are arguing how Fujitora isn't going all out in that match up.  It doesn't validate the argument that Fujitora isn't being serious at all.

"Doflamingo calling Fujitora a monster is relevant because it means Fujitora doesn't get overpowered by base Luffy."

Gear 3rd Luffy overpowers Fujitora.  And Doflamingo's comment is about overall skills and not just physical strength.

"If Doflamingo nearly defeated Luffy, the guy Fujitora describes as a monster must be stronger."

Why can't Doflamingo label characters around equal to him that way?

"Frozen instantly while Aokiji had his hands in his pockets."

But that's made irrelevant because Doflamingo breaks out of the ice without much of a problem.  And the fact that Doflamingo blatantly ignores Aokiji shows that he has no fear of Aokiji.

"If Luffy pushing Fujitora back a few feet while he's blocking with no haki is enough to whet your appetite, then Aokiji wrecking Doflamingo with his hands in his pockets"

I don't see how Doflamingo allowing Aokiji to freeze him and then proceeding to break out of the ice without much of a problem and laugh in Aokiji's face is more impressive for an Admiral than getting overpowered against Gear 3rd Luffy.

"Doflamingo is not in the same league as the admirals."

The Admirals mostly have yet to show significantly superior overall attributes to Doflamingo and Doflamingo has shown on multiple occasions that he has no fear of the Admirals.

"He's afraid of Kaido because his lineage and perks can't save him."

The same can be said against Aokiji.  Also if Doflamingo were trying to incapacitate Fujitora then obviously Fujitora would defend himself.  Also Tsuru attempts to capture Doflamingo.

"And yet Akainu was convinced Fujitora could've handled it alone, and still take Luffy and Law's head."

But handle it doesn't necessarily include matching up against Doflamingo.


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## Pirateer (Mar 30, 2018)

Troll matchup dude, Cracker is a shitter and would get low-diff'd. Fujitora would have a strong matchup against him, could just pickup the biscuits and pin Cracker down with gravity, or just gravito him. He would beat post-katakuri luffy mid diff, so it might even be low low diff for Fujitora vs cracker seriously.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 30, 2018)

X18999 said:


> I honestly don't think Fujitora's *meteor* would do anything to a *biscuit soldier* and *I'm not sure why people think it would*.  He dropped many of them in Dressrosa and accomplished all of nothing with them and they *certainly aren't as powerful as a G4 hit.*



 

Cracker himself broke through his biscuits when he was tossed by Luffy. He wasn't even covered in haki and willingly attacking them. Just his physical form, and a great amount of force from Luffy. What kind of impact do you think a meteor has? Or do you think Gomu Gomu no Cannonball has such force behind it, that it dwarfs the force a meteor impact would have? 

Let's assume you ignore that, or assume that Luffy's stomach force >>> Fuji's gravity. Here's a second point. 

You stated that a meteor isn't as strong as a G4 hit. 

 Doflamingo tanked 6 or 7 G4 hits while he was literally dying. 

Are you stating that Doflamingo can tank the *equivalent of 6 or 7 meteor strikes while mortally wounded *and keep fighting? What is a KKG equivalent to? A mega ultimate meteor?


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 30, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "He didn't summon Meteors therefore he wasn't being serious"
> 
> *Again basically all of the points that you're making are arguing how Fujitora isn't going all out in that match up.  It doesn't validate the argument that Fujitora isn't being serious at all.*
> 
> ...



Right, Doflamingo wanted to kill Smoker, gets frozen, decides not to kill Smoker, and leaves. So from that, you conclude Doflamingo is not only not afraid of admirals, his lack of fear proves he's in their league? They also haven't shown their superior abilities over him?

You were right when you said you weren't downplaying Fujitora. You downplay all of the admirals. Pretty sure you were one of the ones on board with Katakuri practically spanking Doflamingo, but here you seem to imply the admirals and DD are around the same? Does that mean Katakuri > Admirals in your mind?

Luffy has beaten Cracker. In a comic fashion. He's beaten Katakuri. He's beaten Doflamingo. He hasn't beaten a single admiral, nor forced one to use even close to their moveset. When Fujitora got serious, he tossed Luffy. When Garp got serious he tossed Marco. When Akainu got serious, he tossed Marco. Admirals haven't faced any sort of difficulty from anyone other than top tiers, and Kizaru has yet to receive a single visible scratch to date.

"He's afraid of Kaido because his lineage and perks can't save him."

The same can be said against Aokiji.  Also if Doflamingo were trying to incapacitate Fujitora then obviously Fujitora would defend himself.  Also Tsuru attempts to capture Doflamingo.

^ I don't understand what your response here is. For context, I explained why Doflamingo bucked the government instead of Kaido, not because he's afraid Kaido is collectively stronger, but because he can't use his name to get out of it. Aokiji's motivation was different, and irrelevant. I also brought up Fujitora blocking Doflamingo's attack at some point to illustrate Fujitora's reaction speed. Doflamingo is fast, and at close range he counters, off guard, easily. That same attack likely would've landed on Luffy (as we saw from the amount of times Doflamingo landed hits like that)


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## Quipchaque (Mar 30, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Cracker himself broke through his biscuits when he was tossed by Luffy. He wasn't even covered in haki and willingly attacking them. Just his physical form, and a great amount of force from Luffy. What kind of impact do you think a meteor has? Or do you think Gomu Gomu no Cannonball has such force behind it, that it dwarfs the force a meteor impact would have?
> 
> Let's assume you ignore that, or assume that Luffy's stomach force >>> Fuji's gravity. Here's a second point.
> 
> ...



All of this is completely pointless to argue because those soldiers won't just stand there and try tank the meteor if they can't. There is a reason they carry shields and swords and on top of that they regenerate so just drop the pointless meteor hype.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 30, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> All of this is completely pointless to argue because those soldiers won't just stand there and try tank the meteor if they can't. There is a reason they carry shields and swords and on top of that they regenerate so just drop the pointless meteor hype.



It's completely pointless to argue if you assume the soldiers don't have their shields up in my scenario. Also, I was addressing the belief that G4 punch > meteors

Of course I've thought of every way they could attempt to block the meteor strike. And I can't think of one. When wet, they're practically helpless. When melting from the heat, they'll obviously be as useless. If a little water makes them edible, massive heat should fry them. Even if we pretend biscuits are A-OK from meteor heat, how do they actually stop the impact? Fujitora was the one who stopped the full impact of the met strike, Law and Doffy just cut away at sections of it, which still hit surrounding area destroying a vast area.

The biscuits have shown absolutely nothing that can make me think they can stop a met strike. Most of the feats that are brought up for the biscuits are the ones that Cracker did while in the armor using haki. And for the last time, they can't regen if Cracker himself is wiped out, and judging by his tanking ability, that's pretty likely.

Their only hope is stopping Fujitora before it comes down, and that's not happening.

You guys are on the wrong side of OP history, a biscuit soldier is not stronger than a meteor lol.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 30, 2018)

Everyone here's talking about meteors that both law and doffy managed to deal with fairly easily. 

Fuji seems to operate on a sliding scale of strength depending on his mood


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## Quipchaque (Mar 30, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> It's completely pointless to argue if you assume the soldiers don't have their shields up in my scenario. Also, I was addressing the belief that G4 punch > meteors
> 
> Of course I've thought of every way they could attempt to block the meteor strike. And I can't think of one. When wet, they're practically helpless. When melting from the heat, they'll obviously be as useless. If a little water makes them edible, massive heat should fry them. Even if we pretend biscuits are A-OK from meteor heat, how do they actually stop the impact? Fujitora was the one who stopped the full impact of the met strike, Law and Doffy just cut away at sections of it, which still hit surrounding area destroying a vast area.
> 
> ...



Gohara addressed that heat argument already and I think you overanalyze it anyway. Oda is very liberal with how physics work in OP depending on the plot. For example luffy,  zoro and sanji can get buried beneath tons of rubble but they can't stand the water pressure or bullet shots without almost dying lol. Or magma suddenly burns fire like... What? Also shouldn't the strings of doFlamingo and also laws sword burn/melt as well?   Then there is also the possibility that the soldiers got weak because water counters devil fruits.  No matter what you say I can't see the biscuits dying that easily. They are meant to be crackers trump card and even if they do you already said that would be mainly a match up issue so what does it matter?

Then you ask how they stop the impact... Simple. With their strength, shields and pretzel roll or by using a big amount of crackers as a wall. 

And to say that cracker dies immediately is baseless. From what I remember cracker got caught by surprise and thus didn't use Haki when he got bounced back.. Once he does use it on his body he is unlikely to lose that easily.


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 30, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Gohara addressed that heat argument already and I think you overanalyze it anyway. Oda is very liberal with how physics work in OP depending on the plot. For example luffy,  zoro and sanji can get buried beneath tons of rubble but they can't stand the water pressure or bullet shots without almost dying lol. Or magma suddenly burns fire like... What? Also shouldn't the strings of doFlamingo and also laws sword burn/melt as well?   Then there is also the possibility that the soldiers got weak because water counters devil fruits.  No matter what you say I can't see the biscuits dying that easily. They are meant to be crackers trump card and even if they do you already said that would be mainly a match up issue so what does it matter?
> 
> Then you ask how they stop the impact... Simple. With their strength, shields and pretzel roll or by using a big amount of crackers as a wall.
> 
> And to say that cracker dies immediately is baseless. From what I remember cracker got caught by surprise and thus didn't use Haki when he got bounced back.. Once he does use it on his body he is unlikely to lose that easily.



And all of that is speculation in favor of Cracker, of how Oda uses physics this, and how the heat could possibly not affect that. It's a meteor. Sabo is the closest thing to top tier we've seen sans Katakuri, and he gasped when he saw the meteor coming. Doflamingo laughed when Whitebeard created a tsunami. Shit a brick and actually acted when he saw the met coming. Law can teleport all over the place and tries to conserve stamina at all times. Went all out with the largest room we've ever seen him make to take down his portion of the met.

Finally, Fujitora brought it down as a test, but had to deflect it when most of it was going to crash into green bit. It went off into the sea and still created an enormous shockwave, and portions of it destroyed large areas of land. The portrayal of its scope and damage were insane. No character in One Piece has ever been hit by something that could destroy such a large area, except maybe Akainu (WB destroyed MF) or BM (not really close, but it did decent area damage). I understand explosion size doesn't equal strength, but it was portrayed as terrifying to behold as a character, and it conveniently hasn't had an opportunity for a direct hit. Characters address it as soon as it appears, completely dropping guard of any surrounding enemies. Sabo's offense and logia ability make him many times more capable of handling a meteor than Cracker's biscuits, but he stopped fighting and gasped when the met dropped. 

Do you understand what I'm saying? The meteor isn't an autowin, but it isn't something to be waved aside as, "cracker could figure something out." That attack simply can't be ignored, just like KG can't be ignored. A character can't be given the benefit of the doubt in handling something like that if they don't have the feats. Cracker's biscuits are damn near featless since we only definitively see the fight with Cracker in his suit using haki.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 30, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Do you understand what I'm saying? The meteor isn't an autowin, but it isn't something to be waved aside as



Law literally waved one aside later
Lmao


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 30, 2018)

^Yeah, I forgot the biscuit soldiers all have Law's DF, good point

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 30, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No that is not correct. Fujitora clearly had the intention to sink the fleet. It is only when he saw how much the civilians cared about luffy and how much luffy likes him that convinced him to reconsider and then completely stop. Remember fujitora's character is about "the dice decides fate" and shit like that. He immediately took action once the dice told him to. He wouldn't discard his own beliefs just like that on a whim. Sure he had doubts at multiple instances but in the end of the day he decided to follow his duty first.



ermm I'm not sure what I said that disagreed with that?  



Read that whole sequence again. 

He doesn't crush Luffy & the fleet with his rubble when they were on the pier because the citizens intervened, correct. But once they boarded the Yonta Maria & were sailing away it wouldn't have been issue and they were still within his range & fair game. Instead Fujitora chose to target the enemy pirates that came to attack the YM, calling it a "parting gift" to Luffy:


*Spoiler*: __ 









And scattering the remnants _around _the fleet but deliberately avoiding a direct hit (demonstrating the level of control he had) much to the surprise of Bastille. 




Essentially he could have _still _destroyed the fleet with his rubble but chose not to, because after the citizen intervention (and through reading their true inner thoughts) he once again realised that he was correct with his first intuition about Luffy: a hero of DR that didn't deserve to be brought to justice through his hands. The guy is fucking smiling and giving Luffy his thanks there. 


Ergo what @DoctorLaw was trying to tell that idiot Sera earlier - Fujitora was never really completely committed or serious about taking out Luffy or the fleet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2018)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Law literally waved one aside later
> Lmao


Law has spatial manipulation... fuck does that have to do with what's being discussed here.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 30, 2018)

High tier characters among the likes of the supernovas and above should be able to deal with fujitora's meteors or at least the ones he's brought down so far in varying degrees, however; it is worth mentioning the fact that this is one of his casual techniques speaks volumes considering of destructive meteors tend to be. As for Crackers biscuit anyways how effective they will be against them depends on some factors at play. I sure any biscuit that Cracker personally is in would be able to withstand a couple on guard although if Cracker just straight attacks the meteor ala how DD and Law dealt with it before it made impact then he could render that method of attack nonviable to a degree. As for a non piloted biscuit clone they seem to be more comparable to a beefier/stronger pacifista minus the lasers in which without Cracker there personally hardening them with his haki I can see meteors dealing massive damage to them similar to how g4 did if the don't actively try to defend against it.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 31, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> And all of that is speculation in favor of Cracker, of how Oda uses physics this, and how the heat could possibly not affect that. It's a meteor. Sabo is the closest thing to top tier we've seen sans Katakuri, and he gasped when he saw the meteor coming. Doflamingo laughed when Whitebeard created a tsunami. Shit a brick and actually acted when he saw the met coming. Law can teleport all over the place and tries to conserve stamina at all times. Went all out with the largest room we've ever seen him make to take down his portion of the met.
> 
> Finally, Fujitora brought it down as a test, but had to deflect it when most of it was going to crash into green bit. It went off into the sea and still created an enormous shockwave, and portions of it destroyed large areas of land. The portrayal of its scope and damage were insane. No character in One Piece has ever been hit by something that could destroy such a large area, except maybe Akainu (WB destroyed MF) or BM (not really close, but it did decent area damage). I understand explosion size doesn't equal strength, but it was portrayed as terrifying to behold as a character, and it conveniently hasn't had an opportunity for a direct hit. Characters address it as soon as it appears, completely dropping guard of any surrounding enemies. Sabo's offense and logia ability make him many times more capable of handling a meteor than Cracker's biscuits, but he stopped fighting and gasped when the met dropped.
> 
> Do you understand what I'm saying? The meteor isn't an autowin, but it isn't something to be waved aside as, "cracker could figure something out." That attack simply can't be ignored, just like KG can't be ignored. A character can't be given the benefit of the doubt in handling something like that if they don't have the feats. Cracker's biscuits are damn near featless since we only definitively see the fight with Cracker in his suit using haki.



And what you say is speculation in fujitora's favor. That's all we can do since it's a match up that doesn't exist in Canon. Don't see the problem. Fact of the matter is that you can not fully trust the real life logic in one piece 100% of the time. You argue heat melts crackers and I argue heat melts strings... The second example is proven wrong despite real life logic saying otherwise.  So how can you be so bold and claim you know that your example wouldn't be wrong? Conveniently you also still didn't address goharas example with red hawk. So before you proceed to use this argument maybe you should first give us your reasoning for luffy not using red hawk as an easy counter.

Yeah characters reacted shocked... Who wouldn't if a meteor suddenly came raining down straight towards you? That means practically nothing when every single one of those characters proceeds to block it effortlessly afterwards. Also on a side note at one point we even see law outrun a meteor, that is another way for cracker to survive. Anyway I find it ridiculous that you argue so heavily against cracker based on match up and lack of feats (which I disagree with BTW) even so cracker was one hell of an opponent for luffy despite that same issue. 

And by that feat logic a lot of characters lose against meteors. Did we see shanks tank a meteor or cut it?  No. How about kaido? Garp? Jozu? Vista? Sengoku? All one shot meteor fodder for fujitora based on feats. Heck I could reverse the logic and say fuji's meteors are featless(lol).  It just doesn't work like that cracker isnt vivi or buggy and you can't have feats for everything (and again I say cracker has them) you have to understand that.


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## Gohara (Mar 31, 2018)

"Doflamingo wants to incapacitate Smoker's character but decides not to when Aokiji interferes"

That is a reasonable action for Doflamingo even if he is somewhat superior to Aokiji.  If Doflamingo bests Aokiji with high to extremely high difficulty, that still occupies Doflamingo so Smoker's character can escape.  While that match up is happening Dressrosa is free to invasion from the protagonists.  Basically all that argument suggests is that Doflamingo isn't significantly superior to Aokiji, something that I'm not arguing.

"They also haven't shown their superior abilities over him?"

Not on average.  Obviously Pre Time Skip Akainu is physically superior and likely has superior defense.  Kizaru's speed is superior.  However is there any evidence for most of the Admirals having superior speed to Doflamingo?  Not really.  Is there any evidence for most of the Admirals being physically superior to Doflamingo?  Not really.  Is there any tangible evidence for most of the Admirals having superior Devil Fruits?  Not really.  Is there any evidence for most of the Admirals having superior Haki?  Not really.  All we know so far is that Doflamingo and the Admirals excel in most if not all aspects.  It doesn't necessarily suggest that the Admirals won't have superior feats in some of those aspects later in the series.  So far though there aren't any Admirals with significantly superior feats in most if not all aspects.

"You were right when you said you weren't downplaying Fujitora. You downplay all of the admirals. Pretty sure you were one of the ones on board with Katakuri practically spanking Doflamingo, but here you seem to imply the admirals and DD are around the same? Does that mean Katakuri > Admirals in your mind?"



Pre Time Skip Akainu => Lord Katakuri > the other Admirals in my opinion.

"In a comic fashion."

Although with some help and a significant amount of difficulty.

"He hasn't beaten a single admiral,nor forced one to use even close to their moveset."

That would only be relevant if he has matched up against an Admiral in a full fledged match up.

"When Fujitora got serious, he tossed Luffy."

I respectfully disagree that Fujitora wasn't serious prior to that.  And if he incapacitated Luffy that would be somewhat of a different argument.

"When Garp got serious he tossed Marco."

I rank Garp superior to Admiral level.  And it was through interference.

"Admirals haven't faced any sort of difficulty from anyone other than top tiers, and Kizaru has yet to receive a single visible scratch to date"

The only top tier character that any Admiral has really clashed with so far is against a nerfed version of a Yonkou who got the most recent laugh in their specific clash.  And why would we argue that Pre Time Skip Akainu gives a nerfed version of Whitebeard a lot of difficulty based on barely any panels but argue against the idea that top Yonkou Commander tier characters have given the Admirals a lot of difficulty when we've seen way more panels of that?

"Aokiji's motivation was different, and irrelevant."

Doflamingo has no idea what Aokiji's motivations are nor do we fans.  So that Doflamingo doesn't fear Aokiji knowing that Aokiji isn't a Marine is relevant because Doflamingo's status has nothing to do with Aokiji.  Plus and again we've seen Marines that don't care about that.  Tsuru wants to capture Doflamingo.

"I also brought up Fujitora blocking Doflamingo's attack at some point to illustrate Fujitora's reaction speed."

Doflamingo throwing a random kick isn't really utilizing his full speed though.  So I don't really see what that matters much.


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## Gohara (Mar 31, 2018)

The reactions towards the Meteors are basically irrelevant because those same characters destroy the Meteors without much of a problem.

Haschwalth in Bleach's series reacts a comparable way to Gerumi's Meteors even though we know that Haschwalth is > Gerumi.

Doflamingo seems more annoyed at the carelessness of Fujitora throwing Meteors around his Island.

Doflamingo who has seen the Meteors shows no fear of Fujitora in another confrontation.


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## Pirateer (Apr 1, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Pre Time Skip Akainu => Lord Katakuri > the other Admirals in my opinion.



Nice April Fool's joke dude

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Quipchaque (Apr 1, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> ermm I'm not sure what I said that disagreed with that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You say fujitora didn't intend to kill luffy based on his action afterwards and I say he did because he is not the kind of guy who disregards his beliefs like "fate is like a gamble and I will believe in it wherever it guides me". And in this case it guided him into a battle against luffy which is why I assure you he was fully committed to kill luffy and the others. There is a reason the citizens intervened and why fujitora was angry they jumped in as shields.


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## Pirateer (Apr 1, 2018)

The fact that some people think that cracker puts up any sort of meaningful resistance at all is sad and shows how little knowledge of the characters they have, it's at most a mid diff win for fujitora and i'm being incredibly generous to cracker here. Cracker won't ever land a meaningful attack, has no way to counter/stop fujitora's attacks, and his biscuit devil fruit is worthless as fujitora can simply pull any biscuit soldiers/biscuit creations into the sky. It's pretty much fujitora vs base cracker (in armour).

Fujitora has better base stats than cracker and his gravity fruit counters cracker's biscuit warriors. Cracker builds a wall of biscuit soldiers to protect himself from meteors/raging tiger gravity? No problem, Fuji picks them up like trash when they're made and chucks them back at cracker/buries him/removes the warriors from the fight, then throws a meteor or two. What feats does cracker have to show that he can: 1. stop meteors, 2: survive meteors, 3: equal fujitora in base stats OR devil fruit usage/power, 4. dodge or counter fujitora's gravity? Cracker literally gets 2 shotted; 1 shot to break armour, 2nd shot to incapacitate him because he has shit endurance.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> You say fujitora didn't intend to kill luffy based on his action afterwards and I say he did because he is not the kind of guy who disregards his beliefs like "fate is like a gamble and I will believe in it wherever it guides me". And in this case it guided him into a battle against luffy which is why I assure you he was fully committed to kill luffy and the others.



Thought it was commonly agreed that fujitora was not serious vs luffy until perhaps the very end of the fight, at which point fujitora immediately overpowered luffy completely and ended the fight right away. He wasn't serious because he was "fighting to befit his position even though he didn't want to" and became angry after seeing that luffy wasn't doing the same, and then instantly dominated luffy.

We can even use powerscaling to come to the same conclusion; we'll call luffy vs cracker a 'high diff' win for luffy, despite him taking little damage and it was more of a war of attrition. If luffy beats cracker high diff, and fujitora would beat luffy around mid(high) diff, then we can assume that fujitora can defeat cracker within the low(high)-mid diff range.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Apr 1, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You say fujitora didn't intend to kill luffy based on his action afterwards and I say he did because he is not the kind of guy who disregards his beliefs like "fate is like a gamble and I will believe in it wherever it guides me". And in this case it guided him into a battle against luffy which is why I assure you he was fully committed to kill luffy and the others. There is a reason the citizens intervened and why fujitora was angry they jumped in as shields.



Wait a second, I literally provided an example, complete with manga panels, dialogue and explanation of him _deliberately_ not killing Luffy & the fleet when he had a clear shot to do so and you're still saying this?

He LITERALLY disregarded whatever belief you claim he had there. I mean, Christ Almighty Disco, you're approaching Gohara level of delusion & incorrigibility here - there's not much point continuing on if that's the case. What more do you want to convince you if an actual concrete example isn't sufficient?


The citizen intervention served TWO purposes:

1) To initially stop Fujitora from destroying Luffy + Fleet when he was about to pull the trigger

2) To remind Fujitora that Luffy was a good guy, viewed as a hero to the people of DR and he Fujitora had no right to attack him given the circumstances



Disco this really isn't rocket science. Fujitora is a _good _person who has a fair and moral sense of justice and he recognised Luffy as a hero of DR that the marines had no right to apprehend after it was _them_ the WG/Marines that had allowed Doflamingo to terrorise the island in the first place (see the dialogue in his conversation with Sakazuki).

He gave three days for Luffy to recover, kept calling him a hero and even candidly telling Luffy that he was in an awkward position - these are NOT the actions & words of a man who's at all committed to killing Luffy. He only made a token effort to do so _only _when Sengoku & Tsuru arrived and he was told off and as @Tale rightly says above, he was basically trying to gin & convince himself during the whole process, only very briefly getting to that point when he got pissed off with Luffy taking pity on him.



What's funny about this entire thread is that the same Yonkou hacks who desperately scream nerf about WB & BM because they want to protect their tier lists are the same ones claiming that Fujitora was at all serious during DR.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Quipchaque (Apr 1, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Wait a second, I literally provided an example, complete with manga panels, dialogue and explanation of him _deliberately_ not killing Luffy & the fleet when he had a clear shot to do so and you're still saying this?
> 
> He LITERALLY disregarded whatever belief you claim he had there. I mean, Christ Almighty Disco, you're approaching Gohara level of delusion & incorrigibility here - there's not much point continuing on if that's the case. What more do you want to convince you if an actual concrete example isn't sufficient?
> 
> ...



You just said  yourself the citizens intended to protect luffy yet you claim fujitora did not try to kill them... What? 

And Sera provided tons of examples of Dialogue why he was serious, no need to be selective. Especially since I already agreed that his last chance to kill them was deliberately tossed aside by fuji. That Doesn't change my initial point though. Also just in case you misunderstand that, I am not at all saying that fuji went all out. I am saying that he was bloodlusted against luffy.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Soca (Apr 1, 2018)

SMH. Just cuz this place has been low moderated these days doesn't mean you guys gotta take advantage flame each other.

Chill out in this section please

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 1, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "
> 
> Pre Time Skip Akainu => Lord Katakuri > the other Admirals in my opinion.



Why do you think this? Luffy defeated Katakuri in a fair fight, with Luffy coming in with all the other WCI fatigue hurting him. He couldn’t even break the candy wall that Amande cut through after G4 added more wear and tear. Despite that, he tanked hits from Katakuri for hours. Akainu ripped off WB’s face in one hit. Aokiji fought that monster for days on end.

Katakuri’s CoO was specifically highlighted as his greatest strength. Luffy says it, Bege hypes it, and Katakuri insists that if he doesn’t lose CoO, Luffy has no chance. Luffy even states “I thought your DF was a problem, but the real problem is your CoO.”

Luffy overcame his CoO and figured out how to counter it

Katakuri injured himself yes, but only after Luffy got injured from Flambe. Katakuri tried his hardest to win, but he lost.

Luffy > Katakuri. Katakuri lost the matchup fair and square, and he went all out.

Luffy still has to fight the other admirals in the future, and he probably won’t have to do so until after recovery and possibly Wano, so he’ll get even stronger.

From a story standpoint, it doesn’t add up for admirals to be weaker than Katakuri. Luffy wouldn’t have but moderate trouble.

Rayleigh knows of CoO that allows one to see into the future. It makes sense that admirals and strong marines do too. His CoO isn’t an impossible feat to achieve for others, and characters will have found ways to fight it.

One punch means Luffy is DEFINITELY physically superior to Fuji, but Luffy besting Katakuri despite Katakuri having *the best opportunity and a straight up 1v1 against Luffy doesn’t convince you Luffy > Katakuri *

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Apr 1, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You just said  yourself the citizens intended to protect luffy yet you claim fujitora did not try to kill them... What?





I really don't understand what's difficult about what I said. 

- Fujitora was never committed to killing to Luffy _apart _from the brief moment when he got riled up when he discovered Luffy taking pity on him. The subsequent citizen intervention & Fujitora regaining his senses ultimately prevented that from happening. 

- Because of his reservations Fujitora was never really going all out throughout. However because as an Admiral he was several levels above Luffy at that point, he still was still able to casually toss Luffy aside when he felt like it.   


Really, I'm not outlining the history of the universe here. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> And Sera provided tons of examples of Dialogue why he was serious, no need to be selective.





The only person being selective in this thread is Sera with how he desperately clings to one small piece of dialogue, taken wholly out of context, instead of assessing the totality of both Fujitora's actions & words on DR. 

Though it's to be expected from a hack like him. I see the guards still haven't given him his internet access back. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I am saying that he was *bloodlusted *against luffy.





And I thought you were going to be a serious debater on this topic.  



DoctorLaw said:


> One punch means Luffy is DEFINITELY physically superior to Fuji, but Luffy besting Katakuri despite Katakuri having *the best opportunity and a straight up 1v1 against Luffy doesn’t convince you Luffy > Katakuri *





Welcome to the school of Gohara debating 101. 

Lesson 1: Double standards.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Quipchaque (Apr 1, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I really don't understand what's difficult about what I said.
> 
> - Fujitora was never committed to killing to Luffy _apart _from the brief moment when he got riled up when he discovered Luffy taking pity on him. The subsequent citizen intervention & Fujitora regaining his senses ultimately prevented that from happening.
> 
> ...



I mean... Fujitora could probably Lift the whole universe instead of all the rubble in dressrossa while screaming "I am going to murder you all in cold blood!!! "  to make a point that he is trying to kill them all and you would still say he didn't try to kill them so I don't know why I even bothered. Some people just can't leave their bias out of debates I suppose.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Apr 1, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I mean... Fujitora could probably Lift the whole universe instead of all the rubble in dressrossa while screaming "I am going to murder you all in cold blood!!! "  to make a point that he is trying to kill them all and you would still say he didn't try to kill them so I don't know why I even bothered. Some people just can't leave their bias out of debates I suppose.




Disgusting how Sera is treated on here.


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## Pirateer (Apr 1, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also just in case you misunderstand that, I am not at all saying that fuji went all out. I am saying that he was bloodlusted against luffy.


Bloodlusted = all out btw.

Fuji was so bloodlusted that he played with luffy for the entire fight 

I guess you could argue that he was bloodlusted for literally 5 seconds at the end of the fight, but at this point you probably think fuji was bloodlusted vs sabo as well


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## Mr. Good vibes (Apr 1, 2018)

@Admiral Kizaru It's as I said



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Tis a well known fact that nerds are allergic to reality.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 2, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Law has spatial manipulation... fuck does that have to do with what's being discussed here.



He said they can't be waved aside.
I showed him how they are waved aside

Its a joke, relax mr spatial manipulation


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## Dr. White (Apr 2, 2018)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He said they can't be waved aside.
> I showed him how they are waved aside
> 
> Its a joke, relax mr spatial manipulation


Fuck out of here lmao you were trying to make a legitimate argument  don't worry you can officially apologize when Law shows Zoro up next arc

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Gohara (Apr 2, 2018)

Pirateer said:


> Cracker won't ever land a meaningful attack



How do you figure that?



Pirateer said:


> has no way to counter/stop fujitora's attacks



We've seen characters comparable to and/or inferior to Lord Cracker break out of and/or maneuver around Fujitora's gravity.  Fujitora can summon a lot of rubble but rubble aren't characters and don't attempt to break out of and/or maneuver around the gravity.  And if they consistently defend then they're still a counter.

Plus why wouldn't Lord Cracker simply continuously create more Biscuit Soldiers for Fujitora to have to get out of the way?  At that point it's a match up of stamina.

You're right that there are no feats of Lord Cracker defending against Meteors.  But there are also no feats of Fujitora's Meteors destroying anything of substance yet.



Pirateer said:


> We can even use powerscaling to come to the same conclusion; we'll call luffy vs cracker a 'high diff' win for luffy, despite him taking little damage and it was more of a war of attrition. If luffy beats cracker high diff, and fujitora would beat luffy around mid(high) diff, then we can assume that fujitora can defeat cracker within the low(high)-mid diff range.



But most of those opinions are based on the opinions of Admiral > top Yonkou Commander fans.  For many of the fans not in that group it's a greatly competitive match up between Luffy vs. Fujitora.

Also it's Nami and Luffy vs. Lord Cracker.  And it's a match up with a lot of difficulty.


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## Gohara (Apr 2, 2018)

"Luffy defeated Katakuri in a fair fight"

In a sense that's true but Lord Katakuri intentionally takes a break during that match up to eat snacks instead of simply creating more Mochi to incapacitate Luffy.

Plus even excluding that it's more of a draw.

"One punch means Luffy is DEFINITELY physically superior to Fuji, but Luffy besting Katakuri despite Katakuri having the best opportunity and a straight up 1v1 against Luffy doesn’t convince you Luffy > Katakuri"

Because of the points above.  You're describing it as a fair one on one match up in which Luffy clearly wins that match up.  But Lord Katakuri eating snacks instead of incapacitating Luffy makes it less of a clear win.  And again it's more of a draw.

And if you agree that 100+ panels is a lot more evidence than 10 panels then does that suggest that you agree that top Yonkou Commander tier characters matching up on par with Admirals is a lot more evidence than Akainu doing so against a nerfed Yonkou for 1 panel?

I don't disagree that Pre Time Skip Akainu arguably has superior offense.  I'm not really sure why you think that I disagree with that.  Offense is one of multiple aspects.  Although physical strength =/= offense.  Akainu has superior offense and defense.  Lord Katakuri has superior speed and so far more impressive Haki.

And arguing that Aokiji puts up a great match up against Pre Time Skip Akainu is true but you're implying that they were having some sort of duking out boxing style where Aokiji consistently tanks Akainu's techniques.  Which is speculative.  Maybe Aokiji mostly avoids Akainu's techniques?  So Aokiji doesn't necessarily have to tank many techniques from Akainu.  We have no idea yet.

"Luffy still has to fight the other admirals"

We have no idea of Luffy will match up against any of the current Admirals.  And even if that is the case Luffy matches up against characters in an order that has nothing to do with power tiers Pre Time Skip.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 2, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Fuck out of here lmao you were trying to make a legitimate argument  don't worry you can officially apologize when Law shows Zoro up next arc



Zoro... whaaa?
Conversation wasn't even remotely about him

This insecurity is like buggy with his nose where everything is about it


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 3, 2018)

Gohara said:


> "Luffy defeated Katakuri in a fair fight"
> 
> In a sense that's true but Lord Katakuri intentionally takes a break during that match up to eat snacks instead of simply creating more Mochi to incapacitate Luffy.
> 
> ...



Fujitora's heart wasn't in it when he fought Luffy. It's the same thing as Katakuri not focusing enough to put down Luffy because he wanted to take a break. Attitudes affecting performance, and unlike Fuji, Katakuri announces that his attack is meant to end the fight.

That's the same thing, but somehow Fujitora doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, but Katakuri does.

Luffy matching up against the admirals is as inevitable as him matching up with Blackbeard.

-That's why a 2 page spread was dedicated to him hopelessly facing against the 3 admirals with but a log.
-That's why Akainu killed his brother and destroyed his ego right in his face.
-That's why every admiral talked down to him during MF telling him he's too weak to face them.
-That's why he runs back at Fujitora and yells "I'm sick of running away!" despite only running from admirals.
There's a trillion hints that Luffy has to face the admirals later on, don't act like it's "just a possibility."

There's nothing to indicate that Luffy is stronger than Fujitora though. We had a brief fight, where Luffy tells Fujitora what to dodge, and Fujitora sheepishly blocking for 90% of it.

The admirals have been portrayed as monsters to virtually every character who isn't a high tier, and no character in the manga to date has stood their ground against a serious admiral except Whitebeard himself, who received grievous wounds in seconds. Aokiji was portrayed as nearly the equal of Akainu. As for Kizaru, think about why Akainu and Aokiji were nominated. Their temperaments. Not because of their strength. Kizaru in all likelihood can give either one a 10 day fight. Could be stronger than Aokiji.

Context explains how characters escaped the gravity. Zoro used a ranged slash, barely moving his arm to do so. Law barely moved a finger and teleported. Sabo was a logia, and no matter how much you analyze it, the manga makes it clear raging tiger didn't hit because he turned into fire.

Cracker nor his biscuits have any of that going for them. None of those characters broke out of the gravity with willpower or dodged the gravity.

*Why doesn't this board understand how gravity works. It doesn't matter how strong you are, significant weight will crush you. You can't ignore it. 
*
Fujitora was not trying to kill anyone, and we saw him adjust the gravity he can weigh a person down with. He holds back. He can pull down a meteor. If he uses that same force on a person, they will not ignore it because _similar or inferior characters have dealt with it._ Those characters had the right tricks.

Cracker is purely a physical fighter. That's it. His biscuits fight physically, he fights physically. Unfortunately for him, that doesn't help him fight a guy who can control the very thing that keeps him walking on this earth.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Apr 3, 2018)

Most of those points I've replied to in previous posts.  I don't disagree that Fujitora isn't going all out in that match up but there's not necessarily any evidence that he isn't trying.  And defending against Luffy's techniques don't require him to incapacitate Luffy.

And I'm suggesting the same thing about Lord Katakuri.  No one is arguing that Lord Katakuri isn't trying at all.  Just that in that specific segment instead of incapacitating Luffy he eats snacks.

As for Luffy matching up against 3 Admirals.  Allow me to rephrase.  We have no idea if Luffy is going to match up against Admirals as main Arc antagonists.  Even then it's speculative as to whether or not Luffy will match up against the Admirals at all and if so if they'll be full fledged match ups.

Many Yonkou fans rank Fleet Admirals superior to Admirals so using Akainu as an example doesn't disagree with anything that we're suggesting.

There isn't any obvious evidence as to who wins in a Luffy vs. Fujitora match up.  But I can see how Luffy counters anything that Fujitora has shown so far.  But I'm not sure how Fujitora counters Luffy's significant advantage in speed.  Fujitora slowing Luffy with gravity is possible but if Luffy lands techniques before that then what does Fujitora do about those techniques?  And even if Fujitora is quick enough to react to that degree of speed which I'm not convinced of Luffy can use long range techniques.

I respectfully disagree that no character has matched up on par against serious Admirals.  Again many top Yonkou Commander tier characters have around even confrontations against Admirals so far.  And again I don't see why we would take 1 panel against a nerfed version of a Yonkou as more evidence than around 100+ panels of top Yonkou Commander tier characters vs. Admirals.  Not only is the quantity of evidence for the top Yonkou Commander tier characters superior but the quality is superior as well.

Zoro doesn't use any tricks.  Lord Cracker can overpower the gravity in the same way that Zoro does.  Even using that same argument Lord Cracker can do the same thing.  I have replied to the Sabo argument multiple times.

Lifting weight requires physical strength.  That description of gravity doesn't disagree with the idea that characters can overpower gravity.  Even if Fujitora not trying weren't speculative which it is Zoro also doesn't use anywhere near his top techniques to overpower that gravity.  The most skilled character that we've seen Fujitora immobilize with gravity so far is a battle worn version of Law's character who not only got out of the gravity but Lord Cracker is significantly physically superior.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 6, 2018)

Your formatting is a mess Jesus Christ. Fix it if you want me to reply in the future.


DoctorLaw said:


> You remind of a mini boss fight lol. First, he had the rubble floating for a while. Well before the citizens showed up. He didn't drop it then, or use mets. Ergo, he wasn't serious about taking out the alliance.


When Luffy met him he was *still* gathering more rubble. We see him with his sword in that characteristic gesture that indicates he is using his fruit. Btw not dropping it or not throwing a meteor does not somehow mean he isn't serious. Those are not the only expressions of seriousness. 1.5/10 attempt.



DoctorLaw said:


> Second, you ignored all evidence placed in front of you in favor of relying on Fujitora's dialogue (and selectively at that). You also specifically called me out as being wrong based on the dialogue. I don't have to show you exactly saying it when your general attitude and acceptance of evidence points specifically to only that.


Link the evidence that disproves the dialogue. Additionally give an argument that shows the evidence you will link is more relevant to Fujitora's intent than the words that came out of his mouth. Show how this evidence gives a better account of Fujitora's intentions than Fujitora himself. Also if my dialogue is selective then by all means show me the other dialogue during the time period between where he decides to kill Luffy and when the citizens change his mind that disproves my claims. 

I also asked you to show me where I moved any goalposts. By ignoring it I'm going to assume you were talking out of your ass again.



DoctorLaw said:


> Now put your big boy pants on for this, it takes critical thinking to understand this next part. Doflamingo calling Fujitora a monster is relevant because it means *Fujitora doesn't get overpowered by base Luffy.* How does one reach a complex conclusion such as that? Hm, maybe because Luffy barely beat that same guy with an entire city helping him. If Doflamingo nearly defeated Luffy, the guy Fujitora describes as a monster must be stronger. It's a simple shonen trope, bigger baddies are saved for last, and Doflamingo is an effective way for Oda to imply Fujitora's strength.


This is hysterical. You actually seriously believe that being called a monster, with all its vague implications, somehow means that you can't be overpowered by G3 Luffy (not base Luffy- at least try to keep up with the conversation). It's so cute that you preface it by talking about critical thinking then pull out that failure in deductive reasoning. Show me the link between being called a monster and how that relates to G3 Luffy. 

Sanji was called a 'strong one' then got one shot . You're very convincing with this monster thing. Also, even if Fujitora is stronger than Doflamingo overall, it doesn't necessarily follow that he is physically stronger than Luffy. You can be stronger than someone without being physically stronger. 



DoctorLaw said:


> And this is the cutest part of the post, where you slip into the delusion that Doflamingo stood a chance against Fujitora using sound logic like this:
> 
> _-He saw everything the admirals were capable of at MF and still came to that conclusion
> -He knows his place in the power hierarchy given his fear of Kaido
> ...


1.  His whole body is made of ice. Is using his ability while with his hand in his pockets supposed to be impressive? When he can use his feet to also attack??? or any other body part???? What a weak argument. Doflamingo easily broke out of it and was smiling. This somehow shows Aokiji is far above him? When Aokiji himself says multiple admirals should be sent?

2. Kuzan wasn't part of the navy at that time. Try reading the manga. This means he had no reason to not take him out, if he could do it easily. He also shows no fear of Fujitora who would have to defend himself if Doflamingo tried to kill him. 

3. I think Kuzan, who was involved with the underworld, had a better grasp of what it would take to take out Doflamingo than Sakazuki given he had more knowledge.

_


DoctorLaw said:



			"Do you have anything to suggest he didn't mean what he said there? Also there is a very big difference between a character saying something is going to happen and it not happening, and a character telling us the reasons for his actions and the effort he is putting in those actions. The latter is far more credible as he is talking about himself and not making predictions of external events. The fact that you conflate the two just shows how you really have no clue what the argument is about, let alone what would refute the argument."
		
Click to expand...

_


DoctorLaw said:


> Thanks again for arguing against your own logic. Fujitora himself said that his intent was to have someone else save Dressrosa, and to get rid of shichibukai. He allows Luffy to fight Doflamingo, and he lets Luffy recover. While that happens, he has to convince himself to even go after Luffy. He then fights him halfheartedly. Fujitora gets serious at the end when he says he's going to take Luffy down, and there's conviction behind his words. As soon as that happens, he sends Luffy out, and plans the rubble drop. He had Luffy dead to rights when he got serious. So, from you, big difference when a character says something is going to happen and it doesn't happen:


More weak arguments. Yes he felt Luffy should be viewed as a hero but what did he base the decision on when to take out Luffy and uphold his duty? He based it on a dice game where he gave Luffy 1 in 6 odds and didn't cheat by using his power. He didn't just sit and decide not to go after him, he left it up to fate when to go after him. Moreover once the roll didn't go in Luffy's favour he decided to uphold his duty despite his previous feelings. He tells us this.

Also amusing how after the fight he was huffing and puffing, saying Luffy has the strength to back up his words, saying that he had his title to uphold, saying that his fight with Luffy was a fight between men etc, gets you to the conclusion that he was doing it halfheartedly.  Like I told Tale, being serious does not necessarily mean going all out. 



DoctorLaw said:


> "I'm going to arrest Luffy for real lol"
> 
> _Goes to arrest Luffy, doesn't arrest him because he still is hesitant. (when the g3 punch happens)_
> 
> ...


_
''What about the dialogue where Fujitora practically tells Akainu he let Luffy and Law get away for shits and giggles?''_
I asked you for the panel or dialogue where he says this. You haven't produced it. Do you concede you were lying here?

''What about when Fujitora literally tells Akainu that he didn't do shit to prove a point about the WG being assholes? Ignoring all that?''
Again, you did not link this panel or dialogue. More manga fanfic???

Yes he got bloodlusted and did all of nothing damage to Luffy. _effortlessly doing no damage _ This does not somehow mean he wasn't serious before that.




DoctorLaw said:


> Further, Tashigi and Smoker are thankful for what Fujitora did, "paying the SHs back" for what he did. They knew he could've saved the day, or taken credit for it, but Fujitora didn't. Do you need to be spoonfed why Fujitora didn't use nearly all of his power at all?



Let's be specific here. They knew he could take credit for it. Not that he could have saved the day. Smoker literally cites the taking of credit for Luffy's actions. Not that he could have beaten Crocodile himself. Your reading comprehension is 


DoctorLaw said:


> Funny you saying I'm salty because I called you hostile. You're always like that (with everybody except Gohara ), just look at the pointless name calling. This is the internet dude, I couldn't care less about the "imbeciles," or whatever dated things you're calling me, I only care about the matchups (if people talk about them logically).


My two previous posts before that one where I responded to Typon and Canute in some thread had none of that. You started the hostilities in this thread:


DoctorLaw said:


> Then why didn't he drop the island of rubble on them?
> 
> Untrue based on the dialogue? Moving the goal posts so only the dialogue matters. *Gohara, is this your Jekyll side?*
> 
> ...


You're the one who said I'm showing my ''Jekyll'' side. Though I'm sure you meant ''Mr Hyde side'' as he is the bad guy in that duoKappa. You also flamebaited by implying I'm Gohara, a common thing from your folk. 

You're trying to position yourself as above name-calling and only caring about matchups, when you're the fucking one who started it in this thread with me Nice one young hypocrite.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 6, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Your formatting is a mess Jesus Christ. Fix it if you want me to reply in the future.
> 
> When Luffy met him he was *still* gathering more rubble. We see him with his sword in that characteristic gesture that indicates he is using his fruit. Btw not dropping it or not throwing a meteor does not somehow mean he isn't serious. Those are not the only expressions of seriousness. 1.5/10 attempt.
> 
> ...



I’ve never confused “all out” and “serious,” I’m just pointing out Fujitora did neither until he tossed Luffy. 

Fujitora wasn’t close to serious, that’s why he spent so much time on the defensive. He didn’t use his gravity to stop the G3 attack when we’ve seen him react to faster attacks that were closer (Doflamingo kick). He also didn’t use CoA

Doesn’t use his DF, doesn’t use haki.

Luffy of course uses his DF, and haki.

It’s so strange that so many people here are arguing that Fujitora was serious at all in a fight where he talks nearly the entire time, restricts himself from most of his own moveset, and he doesn’t use haki. 

No amount of defining the difference between all out and serious will change that. And flamebaited? No, I’ve seen the joke here a lot and ignored it, but the line of thinking is extremely similar, which is surprising considering it’s flawed.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Quipchaque (Apr 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> I’ve never confused “all out” and “serious,” I’m just pointing out Fujitora did neither until he tossed Luffy.
> 
> Fujitora wasn’t close to serious, that’s why he spent so much time on the defensive. He didn’t use his gravity to stop the G3 attack when we’ve seen him react to faster attacks that were closer (Doflamingo kick). He also didn’t use CoA
> 
> ...



You Say You dont confuse going all Out For Being serious but Your Post Proves The opposite. A character can choose Not To use His full moveset and still attempt To kill You. Which is clearly What fujitora is doing. He did Not lift the whole rubble of dressrosa For The lolz. Heck the whole country population noticed fujitora is trying To kill them and jump in To protect Luffy and fujitora says The Same thing. The denial is absolutely insane.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 6, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You Say You dont confuse going all Out For Being serious but Your Post Proves The opposite. A character can choose Not To use His full moveset and still attempt To kill You. Which is clearly What fujitora is doing. He did Not lift the whole rubble of dressrosa For The lolz. Heck the whole country population noticed fujitora is trying To kill them and jump in To protect Luffy and fujitora says The Same thing. The denial is absolutely insane.



How does my post say the opposite? Fujitora had the rubble in the air yeah, (a feat that is ignored unless its convenient I've noticed), but he didn't drop it. Could've but didn't. The only thing that stopped Fujitora from dropping that rubble during the fight was Fujitora. It doesn't matter about the civilians at the end, during the fight is the important part here. He didn't use the rubble during the fight with Luffy, he didn't use moveset, and he didn't use haki. 

I'd say its more insane to look at a character who is halfheartedly fighting defensively and not using any of their moves and saying "they were still serious about winning." There's no way you can reread that fight and say Fujitora was trying to kill Luffy. They were having a conversation, and Fujitora knew Luffy himself wasn't fighting seriously.

It's a settled matter. There are a million ways Fujitora could've stopped G3, and he has the reaction to have done so. He chose to block with no added defense. It would be a different story if he would've activated his ability or used haki back, so until then, there's not enough evidence to accurately gauge his power. In other words, give the admiral the benefit of the doubt over base Luffy.


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## Jake CENA (Apr 6, 2018)

Fujitora will just levitate all of Cracker's biscuit soldiers including himself and just drop them thousands of feet from the air lmao

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Apr 7, 2018)

Jake CENA said:


> Fujitora will just levitate all of Cracker's biscuit soldiers including himself and just drop them thousands of feet from the air lmao



Yep that's what I thought about as well and so far it's the only convincing argument that makes fujitora look stronger. It's not an auto win though since crackers biscuits might absorb most of the impact and since cracker can still use Haki on his body to avoid fatal damage. Still if fujitora can do this like 20 times he could probably win lol.


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## Quipchaque (Apr 7, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> How does my post say the opposite? Fujitora had the rubble in the air yeah, (a feat that is ignored unless its convenient I've noticed), but he didn't drop it. Could've but didn't. The only thing that stopped Fujitora from dropping that rubble during the fight was Fujitora. It doesn't matter about the civilians at the end, during the fight is the important part here. He didn't use the rubble during the fight with Luffy, he didn't use moveset, and he didn't use haki.
> 
> I'd say its more insane to look at a character who is halfheartedly fighting defensively and not using any of their moves and saying "they were still serious about winning." There's no way you can reread that fight and say Fujitora was trying to kill Luffy. They were having a conversation, and Fujitora knew Luffy himself wasn't fighting seriously.
> 
> It's a settled matter. There are a million ways Fujitora could've stopped G3, and he has the reaction to have done so. He chose to block with no added defense. It would be a different story if he would've activated his ability or used haki back, so until then, there's not enough evidence to accurately gauge his power. In other words, give the admiral the benefit of the doubt over base Luffy.



He obviously planned to drop the rubble at them the only reason he didn't is because luffy intervened. You can't seriously believe if luffy didn't appear fuji would have just stood there with the leviating rubble and glanced At the straw hats for 10 mins lol.

The civilians do matter In  this debate because it makes it crystal clear for everyone that fujitora was dead serious and even civilians realized that just by seeing what kind of attack fujitora is setting up. Hence why they came to Luffy's aid.

Again what kind of move set fujitora uses or how he fights luffy is irrelevant. He came to the straw hats to capture/kill them not hug them and give them kisses on their cheeks. Heck come to think of it your argument would be way better supported if you say he wanted to capture them alive but even then fujitora obviously still has to fight them with serious intention to win not for a draw or something lol. Just because fuji decides to block the first attacks and talks a bit with luffy doesn't mean he didn't intend to win, where do you even get that from?Battles always start at low intensity in Manga and fujitora was also distracted by Luffy's pity for him and tried to understand his reasoning first. That is pretty clear if you read their dialogue for once instead of only looking at the attacks.

The g3 argument hasn't been brought up by me. I don't doubt fuji can block it, of course he can but I agree with Sera and gohara that there is no indication whatsoever that fuji is superior in physical strength. So he shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt. Of course he is still stronger overall than base luffy though.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 7, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The g3 argument hasn't been brought up by me. I don't doubt fuji can block it, of course he can but I agree with Sera and gohara that there is no indication whatsoever that fuji is superior in physical strength. So he shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt. Of course he is still stronger overall than base luffy though.



tbh I don't this argument made by them
Sure cracker blocked an attack while he was aware of it and also using his armor/devil fruit. But fuji was caught off guard and didn't use his fruit

On the other hand katakuri, who's clearly much superior to cracker was caught and held by Luffy for nearly an entire chapter (it was 10 pages or so) and then dragged into the mirror world and he was unable to do anything about it. He only overpowered G4 when using his own attack and devil fruit.
I think that's way worse than fujitora


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## Quipchaque (Apr 8, 2018)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> tbh I don't this argument made by them
> Sure cracker blocked an attack while he was aware of it and also using his armor/devil fruit. But fuji was caught off guard and didn't use his fruit
> 
> On the other hand katakuri, who's clearly much superior to cracker was caught and held by Luffy for nearly an entire chapter (it was 10 pages or so) and then dragged into the mirror world and he was unable to do anything about it. He only overpowered G4 when using his own attack and devil fruit.
> I think that's way worse than fujitora



I don't really wanna debate this but I guess here are my 2 cents on the matter quickly. Fuji wasn't exactly caught off guard. He is a master of observation Haki and (at least in the anime, don't remember it in Manga)  called out to luffy before the attack. And if he truly were caught off guard he wouldn't be able to block the attack in the first place.

For katakuri I think it is a completely different situation if your arms are pressed against your body like this from Luffy's grip because you won't be able to use all your arm strength properly. You can be strong enough to push someone back if you lock hands but weak enough to fail when he would grab you like luffy did. So I don't think this contradicts much but If you still think that's worse than fuji's feat then fine by me I guess.


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